# Miami Intermodal Center (f/k/a Miami Central Station)



## Ispolkom

When is the new Amtrak Miami station opening? I've googled around and found older articles suggesting sometime early next year, but is there a firm date yet? Mrs. Ispolkom expressed an interest in flying to Miami and taking the train back next Memorial Day, and having the new station open would certainly simplify things.


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## Nathanael

Nobody knows.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/05/23/3413599/fdot-fix-for-design-goof-at-new.html

The design oversight is going to cause all kinds of weird problems. I suspect platform lengthening, since it wasn't contemplated in the approved design, will trigger the level-boarding rule....


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## blueman271

I read March 2014, but that's without knowing what FDOT plans to do about NW 25th ST. What I do know is that originally Central Station was only supposed to take two years to build, but like everything else in Miami-Dade county it has turned into a boondoggle.


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## UncleRobin

After reading that article, I had to look at the calendar to make sure it wasn't the 1st of April. Now I'm not a civil engineer (nor do I play one on TV), but I would think platform length of a train station is one of those key foundation numbers one would look at first.

Wonder if the runways are long enough for jumbo jets??


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## afigg

Nathanael said:


> The design oversight is going to cause all kinds of weird problems. I suspect platform lengthening, since it wasn't contemplated in the approved design, will trigger the level-boarding rule....


Had not considered that problem; that the road separation & platform extension might be enough to trigger the recent level boarding regulatory requirement for the Amfleets. Might have to add a mini-high to the 2 platforms which of course will be another additional cost overrun item.

With regards to the MCS opening date, once the station is complete, the platforms will be plenty long enough to Tri-Rail - and the normal Meteor/Star consists. The station may open for Tri-Rail service with Amtrak only relocating after the problem with blocking 25th St is fixed. And at the pace this project has been going, that could be several years.


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## afigg

UncleRobin said:


> After reading that article, I had to look at the calendar to make sure it wasn't the 1st of April. Now I'm not a civil engineer (nor do I play one on TV), but I would think platform length of a train station is one of those key foundation numbers one would look at first.


The station is/was being built with long platforms, over 1000' long as I recall. Long enough for the current typical Meteor and Star train. The screw-up was that, as I follow it, is that Amtrak either did not point out or failed to make it clear to the MSC planners that a longer Meteor might sometimes block 25th St at the grade crossing. Or that the Amtrak representative(s) had not considered possible future plans to at peak periods to add an extra sleeper car & coach car, or if several PVs are added to either Silver train. Whatever the reason, it was a major screwup that should have been avoided.


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## jis

I guess they'll just have to create a special train numbered 897 and 898 which are those extra cars that are dropped off/picked up at Hialeah with last/first stop at Hollywood connecting with Tri-Rail   Problem solved :hi:


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## MattW

I thought the requirements still allowed the use of lifts to access the train?


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## NE933

Seems there was some blame on both sides: Amtrak not considering the expansion of consist during peak periods, or, (dare I speak the dirty word): GROWTH from increase of business!! Nobody rides intercity trains anymore though, so they be damned.

Then there's the contractor side of things, in which somebody designed the length of the platform to-the-tee, for eleven or so cars, failing to factor in there will be locomotives pulling the train, and yes, they have to be attached to it in order for the whole process to work properly. Like, "B' comes after 'A', 'C' after 'B', one plus one equals three, um excuse me, two, etc. etc.

Perhaps some of the people involved have bad DNA.


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## afigg

MattW said:


> I thought the requirements still allowed the use of lifts to access the train?


No, the US DOT issued a Final Rule on level boarding in September, 2011 which has wide ranging implications on ADA compliance. Until the new Final Rule, only platforms that are adjacent to tracks that carry regular revenue freight traffic are exempt. Amtrak is striving to minimize the impact by applying the level boarding requirements to stations with more than 7,500 boardings and alightings a year. The low volume stations with non-level platforms with less than 7,500 passengers will use lifts. All rather complicated. There were two letters to Congress in 2012 on ADA compliance & accessible stations that discuss the issue in depth that are on the Reports & Documents webpage under PRIIA Submissions and Reports for the nitty gritty.

The new rule does not apply to construction contracts that were signed before February 2012, so the Miami Central Station may have gotten a pass. If new design and construction contracts for platform work are awarded, then the new level boarding regulations might apply. something for the lawyers to figure out.


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## blueman271

http://www.micdot.com/mic_program/schedules/13-0630%20June%20Timeline.pdf

The link above is for the latest construction schedule, which was last updated in June. It says construction will be completed in March however, it makes no mention of the platform/25th st issues.


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## afigg

Ok, FL DOT has settled on a solution of the problem of long Amtrak trains sometimes blocking the NW 25 st road north of the station. Miami Herald report: Long trains, short platforms at new Miami airport train station won’t force permanent street closure. They went with the lowest cost solution of adding 2 short connector roads that will allow people to drive around the north end of the train. The construction of the 2 new short roads is expected to be completed by next summer. So perhaps Amtrak moves its Miami stop to the Central Station by next fall?


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## Bus Nut

My understanding of the contretemps is that FDOT and Amtrak are pointing fingers at each other, but the underlying problem is that engineers in Florida are trained to do highway stuff. Well, pick most any other state and it would probably be the same. Passenger rail is not really on the radar. You can be an ignoramus and still proudly wave that PE around. The info was out there for the picking (on the internet, no less) for the engineers who did the project but the engineers didn't know what they didn't know.

Passenger rail and transit (even bus transit) should be its own sub-specialty but I don't really see it. The sad thing is that when money is put up to build transportation centers the highway-trained engineers sometimes don't do the best work. Unless I guess if you hire one of the big boys that has a whole department that does nothing but transit. But that can add a lot of cost to a project.


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## PRR 60

The Miami Central Station project is being designed by AECOM. AECOM has extensive rail engineering experience in both the US and Europe. As for being a "big boy", AECOM is the #1 ranked AE firm (by revenue) on the ENR top 500 design firm list for 2012.


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## Nathanael

All right then. That won't trigger the level-boarding rule because there's a specific exception for places where trains board across road grade crossing....

I guess Amtrak will probably move in in March.


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## PRRNUT

Any update to when this station will be used by Amtrak? I'm planning a trip to Key West in June and would like to ride one of the "Silvers" to Miami and rent a car at the airport. I want to avoid the cab to the airport thing if possible. I tried this a few years ago and the rental car company home office told me they would pick up us at the train station and take us to the rental office but when we arrived the local agent smucks wouldn't do it. If the station isn't open by then does anyone know of a rental car company in Miami that will shuttle you from the station?


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## blueman271

Central Station is scheduled to open March 7th however, I am not sure if that date includes Amtrak. As far as rental cars are concerned, if you don't want to deal with the transfer to the airport your best bet would be to get off the train at Hollywood and rent a car from one of the local offices there. I believe that Hertz or Enterprise will pick you up at the Hollywood station.


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## afigg

blueman271 said:


> Central Station is scheduled to open March 7th however, I am not sure if that date includes Amtrak.


Has there been a publicly announced opening date for the Miami Central Station? Did not find one with a google search nor did I see one on the MCS website. The news articles from 2+ month ago only said summer of 2014 as the projected date. Which, of course, might have been moved up. But, yes, even if the MCS does open for Tri-Rail in March, Amtrak may move on its own schedule at a later date.


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## cirdan

NE933 said:


> Seems there was some blame on both sides: Amtrak not considering the expansion of consist during peak periods, or, (dare I speak the dirty word): GROWTH from increase of business!! Nobody rides intercity trains anymore though, so they be damned.
> 
> Then there's the contractor side of things, in which somebody designed the length of the platform to-the-tee, for eleven or so cars, failing to factor in there will be locomotives pulling the train, and yes, they have to be attached to it in order for the whole process to work properly. Like, "B' comes after 'A', 'C' after 'B', one plus one equals three, um excuse me, two, etc. etc.
> 
> Perhaps some of the people involved have bad DNA.


So are they just goinmg to accept that they can't run longer trains? Or is something being done to remedy the situation.


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## MikefromCrete

I understand they're going to building another road crossing several blocks north and install signaling that will divert traffic to the new crossing when an Amtrak train is blocking the original crossing. Of course, an overpass would be better, but this is a simpler, cheaper way around the problem.


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## chrsjrcj

Would be quite ironic if Amtrak ends up not moving in anyway. A while back I was always under the impression that Amtrak would NOT move in because of the platform length issue, but then a couple of years ago this huge controversy arose.

The new station ends about 300 feet north of the previous station. If they kept the length of the new platforms (or at least one) the same as the old, I believe this wouldn't even be an issue.


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## afigg

cirdan said:


> So are they just going to accept that they can't run longer trains? Or is something being done to remedy the situation.


See the posts and links earlier in this thread from beginning of November. The fix is to build a bypass road across the tracks further north when the Amtrak trains are blocking 25th st.
If the station is completed and Amtrak moves in the next 6 months, that means Amtrak will move in the first half of 2014 to restored/new intermodal stations in 3 major US cities: Denver Union Station, St Paul Union Depot, and MSC. All 3 will have at the move or in the near future, direct connections to local rail transit systems. With Denver and the Twin Cities actively expanding their transit systems. Much better than an isolated Amtrak station only accessible by car or a hike from the nearest bus stop. And superior access to car rental options.


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## VentureForth

And don't forget when they run the 5th grade special twice a year and run something like 20 cars... Though in that case, I don't think they'll run the train to MIA. I think they stage a bit further north.

Are they planning to service the train at the station in the airport? Or are they going to pull in, unload, Wye, and service & park the train overnight at the old MIA station?

Is there one or two platforms at the new station? Can the Silvers both be there at the same time?


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## Nathanael

VentureForth said:


> And don't forget when they run the 5th grade special twice a year and run something like 20 cars... Though in that case, I don't think they'll run the train to MIA. I think they stage a bit further north.
> 
> Are they planning to service the train at the station in the airport? Or are they going to pull in, unload, Wye, and service & park the train overnight at the old MIA station?
> 
> Is there one or two platforms at the new station? Can the Silvers both be there at the same time?


Four platforms, actually. (Well, four platforming tracks -- two double-sided platforms.) Normally I think the plan is to use two tracks for Tri-Rail and two for Amtrak.

However, it gives a lot of flexibility. A really long special could be cut in two and load on both sides of one of the platforms; another Amtrak train could still stop at a third platform; and Tri-Rail could *still* pull in at the fourth platform.


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## Nathanael

Regarding servicing, I believe Amtrak normally runs the trains out to Hialeah Maintenance Facility for servicing, because it is the central maintenance base for Viewliners. If I'm not mistaken, they do a lot more maintenance at the end of the Silvers' runs than just "fuel, clean and turn around" . The "old station" per se wouldn't be involved, though given its location just south of the maintenance facility, it might be converted into an extension of the maintenance facility.


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## chrsjrcj

VentureForth said:


> And don't forget when they run the 5th grade special twice a year and run something like 20 cars... Though in that case, I don't think they'll run the train to MIA. I think they stage a bit further north.
> 
> Are they planning to service the train at the station in the airport? Or are they going to pull in, unload, Wye, and service & park the train overnight at the old MIA station?
> 
> Is there one or two platforms at the new station? Can the Silvers both be there at the same time?


The school special is boarded at the Mangonia Park Tri-Rail station (just north of West Palm Beach), I believe. Typically there are 9 extra coaches tacked on to the end of the regular Meteor consist (though the regular consist cars aren't used).

The new station will have 4 tracks. Should be suffice for both Tri-Rail, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor at the same time. I'm guessing they would run straight through to Miami Central Station, then do a back up move to Hialeah (where the train is service, turned, etc). The next morning the train would have to back into Miami Central Station. There's really no room to move the maintenance base to the new station.


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## Nathanael

Due to the short platforms (rrrgggh) the Amtrak trains will probably back into Miami Central station at all times, coming and going, in order to minimize blockages of the street and minimize the number of passenger cars which load and unload onto the street -- better to have the locomotive crew deal with that than the passengers.

I'm not sure where they'll turn around the incoming trains. There's a wye which could be reinstated just north of the station. But I suppose they might do the reversal all the way up at the loop at the Hialeah maintenance faciliity, though the three-mile reverse move seems silly with a former wye just north of the station.


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## VentureForth

I just found this picture at http://www.miami-airport.com/cip_miami_central_station.asp?wwparam=1389378569:







Looks like FIVE tracks going to two island and one side platforms. But I can't imagine those platforms being even near long enough if they have to fit in THREE MORE turnouts before the wye...


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## Nathanael

That was the original plan, but from looking at more recent documents, I believe it was cut back to four tracks and two platforms, deleting the easternmost track and platform.


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## afigg

Nathanael said:


> That was the original plan, but from looking at more recent documents, I believe it was cut back to four tracks and two platforms, deleting the easternmost track and platform.


The renderings on the Miami Intermodal Center MCS website show that the space was left for future expansion for the 3rd platform and 5th & 6th tracks. The rendering below also show that if the designers had understood the Amtrak train length considerations, they probably could have extended the southern end (on the left) another 100 to maybe 200 feet.






There are also construction photos on the website. The most recent set from August/September (35 pages of viewgraphs) show one of the unfinished platforms from a side view on page 5. Looks to me that the platform height will be 15" ATR.


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## AlanB

Nathanael said:


> Regarding servicing, I believe Amtrak normally runs the trains out to Hialeah Maintenance Facility for servicing, because it is the central maintenance base for Viewliners. If I'm not mistaken, they do a lot more maintenance at the end of the Silvers' runs than just "fuel, clean and turn around" . The "old station" per se wouldn't be involved, though given its location just south of the maintenance facility, it might be converted into an extension of the maintenance facility.


Yes, Hialeah is the primary base for all Viewliners and it will remain so to my knowledge. It is also the only place to clean, service, and restock the train. So just like at the other end of the run in NY, the train will deadhead back & forth between the new station and the Hialeah yard next to the current station.

And I don't see them turning the train going southbound prior to the station. Takes too much time, and it would then require turning the train again in the yard in order to back it into the station the next morning. The train will pull in with the engines in the lead and back out to the yard.


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## 7deuceman

With the addition of Miami Central Station, travelers will have car rental right there at the station.

When I ride the Meteor down from DC, I won't have to get off in Ft Lauderdale to get a rental car.

I do not like the Bus service from Amtrak Hialeah to South Beach at night and this MCS is a welcome

change. Now, Miami Beach is a lot easier to access, especially at night/early morning.

What better time than now to re-start an Amtrak service from Chicago to Miami?

The trains could be called: City of Chicago (northbound) and City of Miami (southbound).

The service schedule could coincide with the Slivers at Jacksonville:

-continuing service to/from JAX - MIA on FEC and,

-continuing service to/from JAX - ORL and TPA on the Silvers.

A Chicago-Miami train would serve some of the largest cities and population centers in America (at

least 18*) on a route that has no current Amtrak service. They eventually might have to put two

SSL cars on such a train!

* Milwaukee, Chicago, Des Moines, Indianapolis, St Louis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Nashville, Memphis,

Birmingham, Atlanta, Macon/Waycross, Jacksonville, St Augustine, Orlando, WPB, FLL, Miami,

Tampa and Ft Myers, either by direct Amtrak service or Bus feeder service to/from Amtrak.


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## Ispolkom

7deuceman said:


> What better time than now to re-start an Amtrak service from Chicago to Miami?
> 
> The trains could be called: City of Chicago (northbound) and City of Miami (southbound).


Before you start naming trains, you might want to investigate track conditions. There's a reason there's no Chicago-Florida train: no good route.

Reading this thread, I'm mildly optimistic that we might just walk across the street from our hotel to board the train in May, rather than take a cab to Hialeah.

The train length thing is a fiasco, but still Miami comes out ahead of St. Paul. At least in Miami the people in charge understood that a train station ought to have actual trains serving it. The buffoons in St. Paul are still working on that, more than a year after St. Paul Union Depot "opened."

But St. Paul have a really big Lite-brite, so we've got that going for us.


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## Nathanael

AlanB said:


> And I don't see them turning the train going southbound prior to the station. Takes too much time, and it would then require turning the train again in the yard in order to back it into the station the next morning. The train will pull in with the engines in the lead and back out to the yard.


They will likely do that if the train's short enough to platform all the cars, but I am pretty sure they will NOT do that if it leaves sleeper cars deboarding on the grade crossing. Amtrak doesn't really want to inflict that on its top-paying customers, does it?


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## Nathanael

Ispolkom said:


> The train length thing is a fiasco, but still Miami comes out ahead of St. Paul. At least in Miami the people in charge understood that a train station ought to have actual trains serving it. The buffoons in St. Paul are still working on that, more than a year after St. Paul Union Depot "opened."


I wouldn't blame RCRRA (Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority, owners of SPUD); they were doing their best.
In Miami, there was Amtrak to deal with, and CSX, and that's it.

In St. Paul, in addition to Amtrak, there was BNSF, CP, and also Union Pacific (bizarrely) to deal with, and apparently a vast amount of the trouble came from trying to get all three of the Class Is to sign off simultaneously -- get one to agree, carry the plans around to the next one, they don't agree, so you change it, carry the plans around to the next one, they don't agree, so you change it, carry the plans around to the first one and they're not OK with the new plans....

The final agreements in St. Paul have a ludicrously complicated division of responsibility among the Class Is, which must have taken an absurd amount of time to sort out. The longest delays seem to be related to the signal system handoff points.


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## 7deuceman

Thank you Ispolkom, for your response. I understand your point "no good route". As I understand after taking a look, there likely is limited track available in some places along the way.

For anyone that wishes to look further, I just found the thread:

Chicago to Florida, started by trainfan, December 26, 2008.

Being based in suburban Chicago, I am interested in seeing a return of Amtrak services to Florida,

There are some very large cities and population centers along the route and at first glance, it could

make sense for a new and profitable Amtrak route.


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## VentureForth

Well, it isn't profitable - Only Acela and Auto Train are quasi-profitable. And it's precisely because it doesn't make fiscal sense is why they cancelled _The Floridian_. I would LOVE to see that train again! Not only a fantastic route to Chicago from Florida bypassing Washington DC, but it also ran straight into Clearwater and St. Petersburg - both places I love to enjoy in Florida but hate making the drive to.

If there could be a business case and the political will to reinstate that service, I would be a regular rider. But, alas, such hope is just a dream...


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## chrsjrcj

According to a South Florida Regional Transportation Authority meeting, Tri-Rail will begin operating to MIC on June 13, 2014. Amtrak doesn't have a set date, but they said possibly 8-12 months after June 2014.


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## Ispolkom

chrsjrcj said:


> According to a South Florida Regional Transportation Authority meeting, Tri-Rail will begin operating to MIC on June 13, 2014. Amtrak doesn't have a set date, but they said possibly 8-12 months after June 2014.


Not quite what I hoped for, since I'll be there in May..


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## blueman271

I was clearly wrong here and I apologize.


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## Mark P

chrsjrcj said:


> According to a South Florida Regional Transportation Authority meeting, Tri-Rail will begin operating to MIC on June 13, 2014. Amtrak doesn't have a set date, but they said possibly 8-12 months after June 2014.


I was afraid this was going to happen. I'm flying into FLL on April 13th and was looking forward to taking the Tri Rail all the way down into the new station. But a few days ago I found MIC's latest construction schedule on their website and saw an early finish date in mid-April. So an opening in June sounds about right.

http://www.micdot.com/mic_program/schedules/MIC0813-3.pdf


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## neroden

chrsjrcj said:


> According to a South Florida Regional Transportation Authority meeting, Tri-Rail will begin operating to MIC on June 13, 2014. Amtrak doesn't have a set date, but they said possibly 8-12 months after June 2014.


Seriously? Then I bet St. Paul Union will get Amtrak first. I wonder what the delays are (my bet is on getting FRA to sign off on the new platform design given that it doesn't provide level boarding).


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## Anderson

neroden said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to a South Florida Regional Transportation Authority meeting, Tri-Rail will begin operating to MIC on June 13, 2014. Amtrak doesn't have a set date, but they said possibly 8-12 months after June 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? Then I bet St. Paul Union will get Amtrak first. I wonder what the delays are (my bet is on getting FRA to sign off on the new platform design given that it doesn't provide level boarding).
Click to expand...

Seems like a fair guess. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Tri-Rail use low-level platforms? I'm pretty sure SunRail will be using them.


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## afigg

neroden said:


> Seriously? Then I bet St. Paul Union will get Amtrak first. I wonder what the delays are (my bet is on getting FRA to sign off on the new platform design given that it doesn't provide level boarding).


Doubt that the platform height is an issue. I expect that the construction contracts for the MCS were issued before the cutoff date for the US DOT level boarding requirements, so the platforms won't have to comply with level boarding requirements for the Amtrak equipment in the near term. If the platforms are level boarding for Tri-Rail, but not Amtrak, don't know they could fully comply without building a mini-high in the middle of the platforms or a new platform for Amtrak use only. Amtrak will presumably place 2 mobile wheel chair lifts, once on each platform.

I find the 8 to 12 months to move after June rather long. Ok, maybe Amtrak needs to wait for completion of a build-out of Amtrak ticket offices, baggage storage space, waiting area. But if the station is complete enough for Tri-Rail operation by June, it should not take 8 months to complete fitting out of out interior space. Amtrak will have to define procedures for running the station and moving the equipment to Hileah and staff the MCS, but they have had years to prepare for that.

Maybe after the screw-up on sometimes blocking the cross road when the Silvers have extra long consists, Amtrak managers figure it is best to keep a low profile and move later.


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## Green Maned Lion

The platforms only need to be level with the lowest equines using them. Since they serve tri-rail, they are in compliance.


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## MattW

Green Maned Lion said:


> The platforms only need to be level with the lowest equines using them. Since they serve tri-rail, they are in compliance.


Supposedly, that's not the case anymore. All trains must have level boarding except where there is significant freight activity or something like that for all new platforms (as a post above said, MIC's were designed before the cutoff).


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## Green Maned Lion

MattW said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> The platforms only need to be level with the lowest equines using them. Since they serve tri-rail, they are in compliance.
> 
> 
> 
> Supposedly, that's not the case anymore. All trains must have level boarding except where there is significant freight activity or something like that for all new platforms (as a post above said, MIC's were designed before the cutoff).
Click to expand...

The trains with the lowest boarding height must have boarding level with the platforms. In the case of Miami, that boarding height is that of the Hawker-Siddley designed, Bombardier misconstructed bi-level cars. The platforms must be level with their lower doors, and I assure you they will be. You can't design platforms that can be in reality ADA accessible to a Bombardier Bi-level and to a high platform consist at the same time. It is simply not possible.


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## MattW

I agree it's impossible, but when I asked the same question a while ago about a future Atlanta station, the response was essentially that if Atlanta served the High Level Crescent and low level commuter rail equipment, they would still be required to have at least one platform at the floor height of the Crescent.


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## Green Maned Lion

Trust me when I say you are simply mistaken.


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## neroden

afigg said:


> I find the 8 to 12 months to move after June rather long. Ok, maybe Amtrak needs to wait for completion of a build-out of Amtrak ticket offices, baggage storage space, waiting area.


That'll all be done around the time Tri-Rail moves in, if not earlier.



> But if the station is complete enough for Tri-Rail operation by June, it should not take 8 months to complete fitting out of out interior space. Amtrak will have to define procedures for running the station and moving the equipment to Hileah and staff the MCS, but they have had years to prepare for that.
> 
> Maybe after the screw-up on sometimes blocking the cross road when the Silvers have extra long consists, Amtrak managers figure it is best to keep a low profile and move later.


Maybe. I have been assuming that there's some piece of redesign needed associated with the cross road which is going to take the extra 12 months.


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## afigg

Green Maned Lion said:


> Trust me when I say you are simply mistaken.


I don't think he is. I did a skim of the US DOT 2011 Level Boarding ruling which grants exception to platforms adjacent to freight railroad traffic, but not to platforms serving mixed railroads. Here is the September, 2011 Federal Register entry. My interpretation is that if the Miami Central Station were to start construction now, at a minimum there would have to be mini-highs for the Amtrak trains. Since the platforms are much longer than needed for Tri-Rail commuter trains, a mini-high or short high level segment could be placed at one end of the platform with a ramp. The level boarding requirement will complicate building new stations in the east that are outside the NEC and direct connecting corridors.

But this is a moot issue with respect to the MCS.


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## edjbox

What will happen to the old Miami station that closes after this one eventually opens?


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## neroden

afigg said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me when I say you are simply mistaken.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think he is.
Click to expand...

He is correct. There was a clarification issued in response to questions, in regards to platforms served by equipment with multiple floor heights (IIRC examples are Capitol Limited + Lake Shore Limited, Cascades + Coast Starlight + Sounder, Hiawathas + Empire Builder + Metra, Pacific Surfliner). It is required to be at the level of the lower-floor equipment routinely used. There is no requirement to build a separate platform to serve the second equipment type. This was considering fully shared platform usage, as along an along-the-line station like Glenview or Tukwila.
However, any deviation from full level boarding requires a special station-specific justification be made to the FRA and individually approved (lots of paperwork). You can expect the FRA to routinely approve an ordinary station with a pair of side platforms or an island platform. But if there are enough platforms at a terminal to separate the traffic from the two different types of equipment, as at Miami, the FRA probably *would* ask for one to be high and one to be low.

As for the old station, it will revert to being part of the shops complex.


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## jis

Given that it is FRA, I was worrying that they might actually require all platforms in mixed equipment use stations to be built with hydraulic jacks underneath them so that they could be raised or lowered to the car floor level for any train that happen to platform there. They have been known to come up with such impractical Rube Goldberg scheme requirements in regulations in the past after all, so why not again? 

As for the current regulations, what GML and neorden say is consistent with my understanding of the situation, as it was explained to me by an Amtrak Chief Engineer who deals with such stuff on the NEC and its tentacles.


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## edjbox

I thought that they will tear down the existing Miami station and sell it to a developer


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## Just-Thinking-51

Nope office space for the Staff. Closed the sleeper lounge early and made it into someone office.

Standard Amtrak Castle. My Kingdom and I rule here. Think Lancaster, PA.


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## jis

Ah Amtrak!


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## neroden

edjbox said:


> I thought that they will tear down the existing Miami station and sell it to a developer


It's in the middle of a railroad loop which is part of Amtrak's shops complex; not a great location for development


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## afigg

With the re-start of this Miami Central Station thread, I wondered if there was any news on when the MCS might actually open. Found this story in the Miami Herald on May 25, that states that the station is expected to open this fall: Miami airport transit hub on the way to bringing planes, trains, automobiles under one roof. So the June opening date stated earlier in this thread for Tri-Rail service has slid to the fall. Of course, Amtrak may still be planning not to move until months after the new station opens.


----------



## FriskyFL

neroden said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that they will tear down the existing Miami station and sell it to a developer
> 
> 
> 
> It's in the middle of a railroad loop which is part of Amtrak's shops complex; not a great location for development
Click to expand...

I was hoping for a 50 story condo tower with stunning views of the Amtrak shops and CSX yard.


----------



## neroden

FriskyFL said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that they will tear down the existing Miami station and sell it to a developer
> 
> 
> 
> It's in the middle of a railroad loop which is part of Amtrak's shops complex; not a great location for development
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was hoping for a 50 story condo tower with stunning views of the Amtrak shops and CSX yard.
Click to expand...

"Railfan Central Condos"? "Horns all hours of the day and night -- guaranteed!" ^_^


----------



## Bob Dylan

High Dollar Condos next to the Tracks, No where else but Florida, Denver, Emeryville and Austin!


----------



## jis

Ever noticed the dozens of Condo towers along the NEC and the Morristown Line in New Jersey, and the Hudson and New Haven lines of Metro North? They cost more nearer the station than further away too!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Do those Richie's complain about the Trains like the NIMBYs here in Ausrin and California do???


----------



## Barciur

So anyway... any news on this project? I've been trying to google around but found... nothing useful!


----------



## VentureForth

Weird. Website hasn't been updated in 18 months, and the 'captcha' digits don't work when you submit an online comment form.

Maybe the city of Miami went bankrupt and they shut the airport and MIC down.

OK ... per this story, the station will open to Tri-Rail by January. Amtrak to follow "at a later date".


----------



## neroden

Yeesh. Does this win the delay sweepstakes for a fully-funded project? (Obviously projects with incomplete funding tend to be delayed longer.) It seems to be 3 years behind so far.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Yeesh. Does this win the delay sweepstakes for a fully-funded project? (Obviously projects with incomplete funding tend to be delayed longer.) It seems to be 3 years behind so far.


MCS is not quite _that_ delayed. According to the article, the original TriRail Miami airport station closed in September, 2011 and it was supposed to take about 2 years to build and open the new Central Station. So a January 2015 opening for TriRail would be a year to a year and a half late.

I did a Google search for news and other than the October Sun-Sentinel article that VentureForth found, didn't find any news updates since May 2014. With the delays and screw-ups, the MIC project and transit agency managers appear to be taking a very low profile approach, presumably hoping that few notice how late the new station is when it opens.

Besides. the Miami Intermodal Center project is not even in the running for the national delay sweepstakes for a fully-funded transit project. They are pikers compared to the East Side Access project in NYC in delays and cost increases. Or the PATH World Trade Center stegosaurus station project.


----------



## Barciur

So I guess it's a fairly safe bet to assume Silver service will be extended to Miami Central Station at some point next year?


----------



## afigg

Barciur said:


> So I guess it's a fairly safe bet to assume Silver service will be extended to Miami Central Station at some point next year?


If TriRail moves to MCS in January, it is a good bet that Amtrak will shift the Silvers there sometime later in 2015, but I would not consider a sure thing. Could be some remaining road work to be done to handle longer Silver trains or issues in moving station staff to the new location.


----------



## VentureForth

Don't forget that part of the delay had to do with what to do about closing 25th street (which IIRC wasn't part of the original plan, but has to be so that the platform can be long enough for the Silvers) and how to turn the train sets around without going through 7 or 8 grade crossings and a major diamond backwards.

I would be interested to know if they have (or plan to) completely restore the wye on the North end of the station.


----------



## RampWidget

VentureForth said:


> Don't forget that part of the delay had to do with what to do about closing 25th street (which IIRC wasn't part of the original plan, but has to be so that the platform can be long enough for the Silvers) and how to turn the train sets around without going through 7 or 8 grade crossings and a major diamond backwards.
> 
> I would be interested to know if they have (or plan to) completely restore the wye on the North end of the station.


The short bypass roads for NW 25th St. were almost complete when I visited the MIC last month. Also, even if NW 25th St. is blocked, it's not a major artery, IMHO, and NW 21st St. at the MIC entrance is a viable alternate to NW 25th St.

As far as turning trains is concerned, Amtrak does have second-trick and third-trick switch crews on duty at Hialeah. I imagine it would be easiest just to take the Amtrak yard engine down to the MIC, grab the inbound train, and pull it back to Hialeah, turning it on the loop track at the yard.


----------



## afigg

News update on Miami Central Station from the Miami Herald: Late to the station: Miami rail hub near airport still delayed. Tri-Rail moves to MCS in the spring, Amtrak in the summer of 2016(!). Which is still a wide timeframe window.

The latest holdup are the details of the transfer of the station to the Miami-Dade Expressway Authority which IMO is something that really should have been worked out during construction. The agencies had years to get the insurance and operational issues settled before the station was completed and ready to be turned over. Anyway, excerpts:



> Miami Central Station, part of a $2 billion transit center east of Miami International Airport, will now open in two phases: the Tri-Rail station this spring and the Amtrak station in summer 2016, said Ric Katz, a spokesman for the Miami Intermodal Center, known as MIC.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Miami-Dade Expressway Authority, known as MDX, is poised to take over supervision of the MIC from the Florida Department of Transportation, except for the rental car center, which is already managed by the Miami-Dade Aviation Department. The Miami-Dade Aviation Department, which runs the airport, is a county unit.
> 
> For months, MDX, which operates some of the county’s busiest toll roads, has been in discussions with the county on the transfer of authority.
> 
> “MDX is working with the county on language for a supporting resolution that would allow transfer of the MIC to MDX,” said Mario Diaz, the expressway authority spokesman.


----------



## AG1

I have noticed a lot of people referring to the *Miami Intermodal Center* as *Miami Central Station*. I was under the impression that* Miami Central Station *was to be constructed as part of the *All Aboard Florida* (Florida East Coast Railway) project and will be located in *downtown Miami*, not at the airport.


----------



## afigg

RRRick said:


> I have noticed a lot of people referring to the *Miami Intermodal Center* as *Miami Central Station*. I was under the impression that* Miami Central Station *was to be constructed as part of the *All Aboard Florida* (Florida East Coast Railway) project and will be located in *downtown Miami*, not at the airport.


The future Tri-Rail and Amtrak station at the Miami Intermodal Center has long been called the Miami Central Station. See the MIC - MSC website.

All Aboard Florida has come along and is calling their future downtown Miami station, wait for it, MiamiCentral.

Methinks one of them is going to have to pick a new station name.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I've personally refered to the airport station as MIC. Makes more sense, since it connects more modes of transportation than MiamiCentral (which is in downtown Miami). Heck, call the airport station Miami Union Station and the AAF station Miami Grand Central Station. Then the snowbirds would really feel at home.


----------



## neroden

So, anyone want to bet on which will happen first: Amtrak moving into MIC or Miami being evacuated due to flooding of the sewer system? (The latter is becoming a serious problem.)


----------



## Palmetto

There have been a lot of articles/editorials in favor of Tri-Rail establishing service to Miami Central as well as MIC at the airport. AAR gave them about two more weeks to come up with $69 million to cover the cost of their portion of the station. One person not in favor is the mayor of Miami. They guy has his head in the sand, I guess. Traffic congestion is bad here, and so is the public transportation, by and large. City Council meets on the issue in the near future, and there is some support for the venture on the part of some of the members. Stay tuned.


----------



## DryCreek

Green Maned Lion said:


> The platforms only need to be level with the* lowest equines* using them. Since they serve tri-rail, they are in compliance.


When did horses come into play for designing a passenger train station platform? I guess if one stagecoach uses Morgans and the pony express uses, well, ponies (Shetland?), that could make a difference.*

* this was to show that I carefully read through all four pages of posts!


----------



## Bus Nut

neroden said:


> So, anyone want to bet on which will happen first: Amtrak moving into MIC or Miami being evacuated due to flooding of the sewer system? (The latter is becoming a serious problem.)


Well, it's Miami Beach which is flooding right now, which is a man-made coastal island. But it's true that most of Florida is very vulnerable. Very close to sea level. And we are over exploiting ground waters causing sea water in some cases to flow in reverse into the spring system.


----------



## afigg

April 5 is the date for Tri-Rail to start service at the new Miami Central Station. Progressive Railroading: Tri-Rail station set to open at Miami airport. Amtrak move to MCS TBD. Excerpts:



> Tri-Rail's new station at the Miami International Airport is scheduled to open April 5, the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority (SFRTA) announced yesterday.
> 
> Part of the Miami Central Station at the Miami Intermodal Center, the Tri-Rail station will provide an immediate connection to the airport via the automated MIA Mover light-rail shuttle, SFRTA officials said.
> 
> .....
> 
> The Miami Central Station already serves as a stop for Miami-Dade Transit's Metrorail, with Amtrak and Greyhound expected to join in the future, according to SFRTA.


----------



## Palmetto

Reminder: Miami Central is at the airport, AKA Miami Intermodal Center. MiamiCentral is the station in center-city being built by AAF. Why both stations have Miami + Central is a mystery to me, and it can easily confuse people. IMO, the station at the airport should be named Miami Airport. Is that too logical? :wacko:


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> Reminder: Miami Central is at the airport, AKA Miami Intermodal Center. MiamiCentral is the station in center-city being built by AAF. Why both stations have Miami + Central is a mystery to me, and it can easily confuse people. IMO, the station at the airport should be named Miami Airport. Is that too logical? :wacko:


Turns out that the world is already as logical as you want it to be!  The station boards at the airport station read "Miami Airport Station". So I believe your claim above regarding it being called "Miami Central" is not borne out by observed facts. The reality is that the station at the airport is called "Miami Airport Station" and the AAF station is called "Miami Central".


----------



## Palmetto

You must have overlooked afigg's post above.


----------



## jis

No I did not. I was just stating what is actually used as the name of the station at the station. Afigg's post is about a document not about reality on the ground


----------



## VentureForth

My question is What is Amtrak going to call it when it finally lands there?


----------



## afigg

VentureForth said:


> My question is What is Amtrak going to call it when it finally lands there?


Checking the Tri-Rail website, Tri-Rail is calling it the Miami Airport Station. The website for the Miami Intermodal Center (MIC) is still calling the station project the Miami Central Station and in the news releases, but my guess that the Central Station designation (for the station at the airport) will fade away and it will become called the Miami Airport station by everyone, including Amtrak.


----------



## jis

Afterall Tri-Rail, which plans to operate to boths tations could not possibly name both stations the same. It is logical to call the station that is at the airport the Airport Station, and the one that is closer to the center of the city the Central Station. MIC had come up with the "Central" monicker before anyone had heard of the possibility of a real station near the real center of the city.


----------



## Palmetto

May I respectfully suggest that the title of this thread be changed to reflect that the discussion is about the MIC at the airport, and not the AAF Miami Central downtown?


----------



## adamj023

One can get off Amtrak and connect to Tri rail if they need to get into the new Miami terminal easily if they need to be closer to this location. Only a few days away.

Miami is one of those growing big gateway destinations in the USA. Area around Miami is seeing population growth.

NYC Moynihan station is still a ways out yet. Jealous that Miami is getting done.


----------



## Palmetto

Miami is the only major US city that I can think of that does not have a railroad station in center city.


----------



## CCC1007

What about Phoenix, Arizona?


----------



## VentureForth

Palmetto said:


> Miami is the only major US city that I can think of that does not have a railroad station in center city.


That in itself is an all new thread. There are larger cities without rail stations at all, and others where the station is outside the downtown area (ie: Charleston, SC). Not to mention, there are light rail connections from the Tri Rail into downtown where there is both the El and the People mover.

Miami is the 44th largest city in the US. Phoenix at 6th, Columbus at 15th, Nashville at 25th, Louisville at 28th, Las Vegas at 30th, Mesa Arizona, Virginia Beach and Colorado Springs are all larger cities without Amtrak service at all. The rest are a mix of downtown vs outskirts, like Jacksonville - 13th largest city in the US.

Incidentally, it appears that Google Maps is even confused. Shows a plethora of transit icons, some that say Miami Central, but when you click/hover on them, they say Miami Airport Station.


----------



## adamj023

While I understand Amtrak will be unified with the new station in Miami in 2016, having the ability to transfer to tri rail on April 5th at the new Miami station will really be nice for those times you want to travel to Miami and have more convenient access. Amtrak shares track with Tri rail if I recall. So if someone needs accessibility you can make an Amtrak to tri rail connection at another station then get to the new Miami station .

April 5th will make Miami a lot more convenient for train passengers.


----------



## adamj023

VentureForth said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Miami is the only major US city that I can think of that does not have a railroad station in center city.
> 
> 
> 
> That in itself is an all new thread. There are larger cities without rail stations at all, and others where the station is outside the downtown area (ie: Charleston, SC). Not to mention, there are light rail connections from the Tri Rail into downtown where there is both the El and the People mover.Miami is the 44th largest city in the US. Phoenix at 6th, Columbus at 15th, Nashville at 25th, Louisville at 28th, Las Vegas at 30th, Mesa Arizona, Virginia Beach and Colorado Springs are all larger cities without Amtrak service at all. The rest are a mix of downtown vs outskirts, like Jacksonville - 13th largest city in the US.Incidentally, it appears that Google Maps is even confused. Shows a plethora of transit icons, some that say Miami Central, but when you click/hover on them, they say Miami Airport Station.
Click to expand...

Cant comment on center of cities, but Amtrak has been doing some station work apparently with openings and closings.

Loads of train stations around the world with passenger service. Miami has been booming with high population growth in surrounding locales and traffic is very high. Hence the need for this new station which I also believe facilitates an airport link as well. Really good news Tri rail will be accessible and Amtrak passengers can avoid the old station if they need to by transferring to tri rail for now. More important for tri rail than amtrak at Miami if you had to pick which one came first, even tho tri rail doesnt have checked baggage like Amtrak.


----------



## NE933

So no railroad will be allowed to use it unless they agree on a name.... HAHHAHAHA. And they say I need meds..


----------



## Palmetto

SFRTA is touting that a person can now go between West Palm Beach and Florida City without using a car or a taxi. It's an epic journey, though: Tri-Rail to MIC, Metrorail to its southern terminus at Dadeland South, and finally Metrobus to Florida City on the busway.


----------



## VentureForth

Right now, you can transfer from Amtrak to Tri Rail with an inconvenient walk at Miami (Amtrak) to MetroRail Transfer Station. Or, you can have a same-platform train change in Hollywood from Amtrak to Tri-Rail. Of course, if your intent is to get to downtown Miami, then get on MetroRail (At Tri-Rail Station) instead of TriRail (at MetroRail Transfer Station). Or transfer to Tri-Rail at Hollywood then transfer again at MetroRail Transfer Station.

Maybe the naming issue WON'T get resolved - The Tri Rail station near Miami (Amtrak) is called MetroRail Transfer Station and the MetroRail station is called Tri-Rail.

They are some messed up folks down there. Drinkin' wayyyyy too much salt water.


----------



## FriskyFL

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article17452403.html


----------



## DryCreek

Palmetto said:


> SFRTA is touting that a person can now go between West Palm Beach and Florida City without using a car or a taxi. It's an epic journey, though: Tri-Rail to MIC, Metrorail to its southern terminus at Dadeland South, and finally Metrobus to Florida City on the busway.


Meh, if they truly want to impress me, have them give me a call when I can board in Jacksonville and hop off in Key West again.


----------



## edjbox

Virginia Beach has Amtrak service in both nearby Norfolk and Newport News VA via the Northeast Regional


----------



## Palmetto

DryCreek said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> SFRTA is touting that a person can now go between West Palm Beach and Florida City without using a car or a taxi. It's an epic journey, though: Tri-Rail to MIC, Metrorail to its southern terminus at Dadeland South, and finally Metrobus to Florida City on the busway.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, if they truly want to impress me, have them give me a call when I can board in Jacksonville and hop off in Key West again.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to impress you. I'm just stating what is possible in South Florida according to the SFRTA. I don't think you'll ever find the SFRTA involved in something up in Jacksonville, either. You'll have to push your representative to do something about a Jacksonville-Key West itinerary.


----------



## VentureForth

DryCreek said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> SFRTA is touting that a person can now go between West Palm Beach and Florida City without using a car or a taxi. It's an epic journey, though: Tri-Rail to MIC, Metrorail to its southern terminus at Dadeland South, and finally Metrobus to Florida City on the busway.
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, if they truly want to impress me, have them give me a call when I can board in Jacksonville and hop off in Key West again.
Click to expand...

Could you have been alive the last time that was available?

It would be nice, though...


----------



## jis

I can almost bet that JAX to Key West by rail won't happen before south Florida is overrun by the ocean.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> I can almost bet that JAX to Key West by rail won't happen before south Florida is overrun by the ocean.


Truer words were never spoken!


----------



## chrsjrcj

Took a trip today down to MIC (that's what the conductor called it...."Miami Airport MIC station"). My first time at the station since the MIA Mover and Metrorail opened. Really cool station. The MIA mover is quite fun and you can stand up front to get a "driver's side" view.

Right now only one platform (two tracks is open), but the other platform actually has Amtrak signage (the one that is open just has Tri-Rail). I'll post a few pictures later.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Palmetto said:


> SFRTA is touting that a person can now go between West Palm Beach and Florida City without using a car or a taxi. It's an epic journey, though: Tri-Rail to MIC, Metrorail to its southern terminus at Dadeland South, and finally Metrobus to Florida City on the busway.


I met a family a few years ago who took the Busway from Homestead to Dadeland South, Metrorail from Dadeland South to Tri-Rail transfer station, and Tri-Rail from the Metrorail transfer station to West Palm Beach. They were going to check out CityPlace. I think it's a 3 or 4 hour trip, but they seemed to be in good spirits.


----------



## chrsjrcj

A few months later but here are some pics I took today.  Looks like they have a small Amtrak waiting room, with a ticket counter and restrooms. Sits empty (for how long?). Don't see any work at the railroad crossing that Amtrak trains would block if they were too long. I wonder if this move is dead.

Amtrak trains will use platform two (currently used for some Tri-Rail train arrivals during during rush hour). There is Amtrak signage for the platform and waiting room.


----------



## Bob Dylan

What a shame this jewel isn't already in use by Amtrak trains but oh so typical of Amtrak!!


----------



## MattW

So will there still be a Kindergarten walk?


----------



## afigg

chrsjrcj said:


> A few months later but here are some pics I took today.  Looks like they have a small Amtrak waiting room, with a ticket counter and restrooms. Sits empty (for how long?). Don't see any work at the railroad crossing that Amtrak trains would block if they were too long. I wonder if this move is dead.


Thanks for the photo update. Looks like it will be a nice waiting room and setup for Amtrak. It was stated in news articles when TriRail started operating at the Miami Airport Station that Amtrak would move there in 2016. The delay in modifying or moving the road crossings may be due to waiting on permits and approvals from various local agencies and boards. Never underestimate how long the bureaucratic process can take when it comes to station projects.


----------



## niemi24s

It's quite easy to understand the problem of long trains blocking NW 25th Street if the area is viewed on Google Earth:




The only unknowns to me are the lengths of the Silver Star & Meteor and how much track might be under the canopy at the ends of the tracks. In addition, it appears the closest place to reverse the direction of the trains is the loop at the present station, which is about 3.7 miles away to the north.

Sorry if this has all been covered before - didn't take the time to read through this lengthy thread.


----------



## jis

I suspect that as long as the Silvers are limited to something like10 cars + 2 engines they do not infringe on the grade crossing. Anything longer than that does. The problem is typically they may be longer and certainly so if they are carrying a few PV along for the ride.

The only real solution would appear to be to have NW 25th Street be put on an overpass across the railroads between 37th Ave and 39th Ave and shutting down that grade crossing. Which of course most likely won;t happen.

There seems to be lack of platform beyond the grade crossing too if I am not mistaken.


----------



## Alex M.

If they decide to split the trains at JAX with the west coast sections going on to Tampa, would the east coast sections be short enough to be regularly accommodated at Miami?


----------



## keelhauled

Even if it takes another five years to figure out Miami station I'm pretty sure that would still be faster than the process of setting up both Silvers to split in Jacksonville.


----------



## PRR 60

I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.


I think they will need to add some platform infrastructure on the north side of the grade crossing if they really expect trains to stick out there. I don;t think FRA will look kindly to using the gravel as the general platform for cars that hang out there.



Alex M. said:


> If they decide to split the trains at JAX with the west coast sections going on to Tampa, would the east coast sections be short enough to be regularly accommodated at Miami?


I am quite certain that they will not decide to split trains to send one section to terminate in Tampa. The days of terminating an LD train in Tampa are well behind us, and is unlikely to come back unless Florida decides to fund such, which is unlikely. OTOH, splitting trains in JAX for sending a section down the FEC is within the realm of possibilities, and such second section would most likely terminate in the AAF Miami Central and not MIC at Miami Airport. Of course how they get the consist from Miami Central to Hialeah will still remain a bit of an issue, but not entirely insurmountable one, since Tri-Rail is supposed to be building the necessary link for its trains to reach Miami Central from the Tr-Rail corridor.


----------



## niemi24s

jis said:


> There seems to be lack of platform beyond the grade crossing too if I am not mistaken.


Google Earth imagery dated Dec 2014 confirms that, but there is room to add about 430 more feet to the easternmost platform if the crossing at grade could be elevated. And I'm guessing having the road go under the tracks is not an option at that location. Google Earth also shows evidence of a wye immediately north of the station, but its southern leg has been dismantled. That wye, if intact, would be an ideal place to reverse a trains direction.


----------



## west point

NW 25th street cannot bridge over the tracks because that elevation is now taken by Metro Rail tracks. Correct about no platform north of 25th street. The RR tracks cannot be raised due to encroaching into the MIA airport glide path of runway 27. Also tracks have to stay ground level due to connection track for CSX freight tracks to the Homestead branch.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

No doubt the new station is a fantastic improvement over the current one in terms of location, connections, rental cars, etc. Unfortunately, it will probably increase the operating loses for the Star and Meteor. Ridership will certainly go up some, but the trains will have to deadhead to/from Hialeah with the OBS and T&E crews, meaning an earlier on-duty time and later off-duty time for everyone involved. Depending on a variety of factors, they may even need an additional yard crew to handle the extra moves.



PRR 60 said:


> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.



I've been down there myself and was surprised at the amount of traffic on NW 25th St. That said, I don't see businesses being cut-off if the crossing is blocked. Traffic can go south about four blocks to NW 21st St or north to River Dr. The crossing will only be blocked for trains longer than 10 cars and two engines, which is about 990 feet. Right now, the Meteor is running with 11 cars for the summer and will do so during the Thanksgiving and Christmas peaks. The Star, well... it just keeps getting shorter. So you are looking at a 20 - 30 minute closure twice a day. The morning closure will be pretty predictable. The afternoon closure will have a bit more variability. 



jis said:


> Alex M. said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they decide to split the trains at JAX with the west coast sections going on to Tampa, would the east coast sections be short enough to be regularly accommodated at Miami?
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite certain that they will not decide to split trains to send one section to terminate in Tampa. The days of terminating an LD train in Tampa are well behind us, and is unlikely to come back unless Florida decides to fund such, which is unlikely. OTOH, splitting trains in JAX for sending a section down the FEC is within the realm of possibilities, and such second section would most likely terminate in the AAF Miami Central and not MIC at Miami Airport. Of course how they get the consist from Miami Central to Hialeah will still remain a bit of an issue, but not entirely insurmountable one, since Tri-Rail is supposed to be building the necessary link for its trains to reach Miami Central from the Tr-Rail corridor.
Click to expand...

There is a connection track (Mission Spur) just north of West Palm Beach that connects the SFRTA and FEC. On the FEC side, the track only connects southbound. The plan for bringing trains down the FEC called for adding a north connection, crossing the trains over and down via the existing stations, terminating at the same Miami station. It would not fly to have two Amtrak stations a couple blocks apart in every city from West Palm to Miami. There was some work going on recently at the Mission Spur. They've removed the north leg of the wye on the SFRTA side. Don't know if that was done in conjunction with some road work in the area or a project on the spur itself.


----------



## PRR 60

From the Miami Herald, January 27, 2015:



> In January 2013, FDOT acknowledged that it learned only after construction began that the Amtrak trains would be longer than expected. So the platform built to serve Amtrak was about 200 feet too short, meaning that some trains would jut north into busy Northwest 25th Street.
> 
> To fix that, FDOT settled on keeping Northwest 25th Street open with the caveat that it will close for up to 45 minutes twice a day during peak seasons when long Amtrak trains arrive. To reroute traffic around delays, FDOT agreed to build two short new streets in the area as alternate routes.


Miami Herald


----------



## railbuck

jis said:


> I think they will need to add some platform infrastructure on the north side of the grade crossing if they really expect trains to stick out there. I don;t think FRA will look kindly to using the gravel as the general platform for cars that hang out there.


Wouldn't they just not open the doors on those cars, and send the pax forward a car or two to deboard on the platform?



jis said:


> The problem is typically they may be longer and certainly so if they are carrying a few PV along for the ride.


The PVs might have to be dropped at, or deboarded at, the present station.


----------



## niemi24s

west point said:


> NW 25th street cannot bridge over the tracks because that elevation is now taken by Metro Rail tracks.


Can't believe I didn't see that - it's as plain as can be on Google Earth. And now that I look at it as bit more, I can see where running NW 25th St. under the tracks would be a real problem - if not because of the ground water level but all the adjacent parking lot entrances. Yup, detouring traffic is the only reasonable solution.

What's the drawback with restoring the south leg of the wye to turn the trains? It's turnout is still there (at least as of last December) and it's only 570 feet north of NW 25th St. But, like most of my ideas of late, there's probably a good reason why that's a bad idea. Maybe something to do with what happens to the Silvers at the present station after the new one is put into use?


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.
> 
> 
> 
> I think they will need to add some platform infrastructure on the north side of the grade crossing if they really expect trains to stick out there. I don;t think FRA will look kindly to using the gravel as the general platform for cars that hang out there.
Click to expand...

They could do the NJ Transit trick and, if needed, have passengers in the last car or two walk forward to exit. Since MIA is the end of the line, it's not like the cars are full coming in or heading out.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.
> 
> 
> 
> I think they will need to add some platform infrastructure on the north side of the grade crossing if they really expect trains to stick out there. I don;t think FRA will look kindly to using the gravel as the general platform for cars that hang out there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They could do the NJ Transit trick and, if needed, have passengers in the last car or two walk forward to exit. Since MIA is the end of the line, it's not like the cars are full coming in or heading out.
Click to expand...

That's true. It is sad that even when we build absolutely new infrastructure we have to resort to such third world-like workarounds.


----------



## John Bobinyec

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.
> 
> 
> 
> I think they will need to add some platform infrastructure on the north side of the grade crossing if they really expect trains to stick out there. I don;t think FRA will look kindly to using the gravel as the general platform for cars that hang out there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They could do the NJ Transit trick and, if needed, have passengers in the last car or two walk forward to exit. Since MIA is the end of the line, it's not like the cars are full coming in or heading out.
Click to expand...

Don't think that'll work for someone using a walker or who is unsteady on their feet. In such a situation, the train would end up making two stops.

jb


----------



## jis

John Bobinyec said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.
> 
> 
> 
> I think they will need to add some platform infrastructure on the north side of the grade crossing if they really expect trains to stick out there. I don;t think FRA will look kindly to using the gravel as the general platform for cars that hang out there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They could do the NJ Transit trick and, if needed, have passengers in the last car or two walk forward to exit. Since MIA is the end of the line, it's not like the cars are full coming in or heading out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't think that'll work for someone using a walker or who is unsteady on their feet. In such a situation, the train would end up making two stops.
> 
> jb
Click to expand...

Are you proposing that the front of the train would proceed to crash through the bumper block to bring the rear cars to align with the platform? :blink:


----------



## VentureForth

AmtrakLKL said:


> No doubt the new station is a fantastic improvement over the current one in terms of location, connections, rental cars, etc. Unfortunately, it will probably increase the operating loses for the Star and Meteor. Ridership will certainly go up some, but the trains will have to deadhead to/from Hialeah with the OBS and T&E crews, meaning an earlier on-duty time and later off-duty time for everyone involved. Depending on a variety of factors, they may even need an additional yard crew to handle the extra moves.
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been down there myself and was surprised at the amount of traffic on NW 25th St. That said, I don't see businesses being cut-off if the crossing is blocked. Traffic can go south about four blocks to NW 21st St or north to River Dr. The crossing will only be blocked for trains longer than 10 cars and two engines, which is about 990 feet. Right now, the Meteor is running with 11 cars for the summer and will do so during the Thanksgiving and Christmas peaks. The Star, well... it just keeps getting shorter. So you are looking at a 20 - 30 minute closure twice a day. The morning closure will be pretty predictable. The afternoon closure will have a bit more variability.
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex M. said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they decide to split the trains at JAX with the west coast sections going on to Tampa, would the east coast sections be short enough to be regularly accommodated at Miami?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am quite certain that they will not decide to split trains to send one section to terminate in Tampa. The days of terminating an LD train in Tampa are well behind us, and is unlikely to come back unless Florida decides to fund such, which is unlikely. OTOH, splitting trains in JAX for sending a section down the FEC is within the realm of possibilities, and such second section would most likely terminate in the AAF Miami Central and not MIC at Miami Airport. Of course how they get the consist from Miami Central to Hialeah will still remain a bit of an issue, but not entirely insurmountable one, since Tri-Rail is supposed to be building the necessary link for its trains to reach Miami Central from the Tr-Rail corridor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is a connection track (Mission Spur) just north of West Palm Beach that connects the SFRTA and FEC. On the FEC side, the track only connects southbound. The plan for bringing trains down the FEC called for adding a north connection, crossing the trains over and down via the existing stations, terminating at the same Miami station. It would not fly to have two Amtrak stations a couple blocks apart in every city from West Palm to Miami. There was some work going on recently at the Mission Spur. They've removed the north leg of the wye on the SFRTA side. Don't know if that was done in conjunction with some road work in the area or a project on the spur itself.
Click to expand...

I've been saying that Tri Rail doesn't need stops just a couple blocks apart in every city froM WPB to Miami, but NO! Must have Tri Rail on the FEC. Don't know what that gains Tri Rail.


----------



## John Bobinyec

jis said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the final decision regarding the length of Amtrak trains was that if the Amtrak train blocked NW 25th Street, traffic would be directed around the blocked crossing to use the NW 31st Street crossing. That crossing is less than 1/2 mile away.
> 
> 
> 
> I think they will need to add some platform infrastructure on the north side of the grade crossing if they really expect trains to stick out there. I don;t think FRA will look kindly to using the gravel as the general platform for cars that hang out there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They could do the NJ Transit trick and, if needed, have passengers in the last car or two walk forward to exit. Since MIA is the end of the line, it's not like the cars are full coming in or heading out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't think that'll work for someone using a walker or who is unsteady on their feet. In such a situation, the train would end up making two stops.
> 
> jb
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you proposing that the front of the train would proceed to crash through the bumper block to bring the rear cars to align with the platform? :blink:
Click to expand...

No. Sorry. Didn't realize there was no head room at all.

jb


----------



## west point

Have thought of the wye as well.

1. it would seem doable with not too much curvature

2. Backing or forward onto the wye tail requires going west that will require blocking LaJune road and the airport exit off the east west expressway . They are blocked now by the occasional CSX local train to proceeds on the tail to the Homestead branch and interconnection with the FEC yard.. A wye east not possible.

3. Going under the tracks at 25th would require digging at least 12 feet under the Miami river water table. There is also a salt water intrusion prevention dam just west of the Tri Rail tracks. This is one of many dams around the everglades that raises river about 3 - 4 feet to protect the everglades water level Those tracks cross the river over a bascule draw very infrequently raised.


----------



## jis

AmtrakLKL said:


> There is a connection track (Mission Spur) just north of West Palm Beach that connects the SFRTA and FEC. On the FEC side, the track only connects southbound. The plan for bringing trains down the FEC called for adding a north connection, crossing the trains over and down via the existing stations, terminating at the same Miami station. It would not fly to have two Amtrak stations a couple blocks apart in every city from West Palm to Miami. There was some work going on recently at the Mission Spur. They've removed the north leg of the wye on the SFRTA side. Don't know if that was done in conjunction with some road work in the area or a project on the spur itself.


You're correct. That is what will happen. Amtrak will continue to use the MIC Airport Station.

AAF would not have the capacity to actually handle an LD train in their station anyway.



west point said:


> Have thought of the wye as well.
> 
> 1. it would seem doable with not too much curvature
> 
> 2. Backing or forward onto the wye tail requires going west that will require blocking LaJune road and the airport exit off the east west expressway . They are blocked now by the occasional CSX local train to proceeds on the tail to the Homestead branch and interconnection with the FEC yard.. A wye east not possible.
> 
> 3. Going under the tracks at 25th would require digging at least 12 feet under the Miami river water table. There is also a salt water intrusion prevention dam just west of the Tri Rail tracks. This is one of many dams around the everglades that raises river about 3 - 4 feet to protect the everglades water level Those tracks cross the river over a bascule draw very infrequently raised.


Yeah I pretty much figured that going under was a no go, and of course completely missed the fact that the Metro is actually elevated there, so going over is a no go too. What a mess!


----------



## niemi24s

I figured the water table would be the main problem. Somebody once told me there no such thing as a house in FL with a basement - but that's probably an exaggeration.


----------



## jis

Specially in Miami the water table is now slowly trending to become above ground level


----------



## Bob Dylan

What about around Orlando and Central Florida where you Jersey ex-pats and Penny hang your hats?

Has all the Growth and MickeyWorld and Sea World used up all the water or is it swampy like it used to be?

I remember when Cypress Gardens and Alligator Shows were the HOT Tickets in Florida!! LOL


----------



## xyzzy

Yeah, in the days of "old Florida" before Mickey there wasn't much in the vicinity of Orlando except swamp and farms. I'm still amazed that Disney was able to buy all that land without any leak until the last minute, just before the final deal closed. One of the great stories in business development.


----------



## jis

Central Florida is at a somewhat higher altitude in a Florida manner of speaking  compared to Miami. Just look at the USGS flood maps to see what I mean. Actually the area between the St. johns basin and Indian River is not really all that swampy. It is relatively higher hammocks area.

Orlando is a very different type of area geologically speaking than most of coastal Brevard.


----------



## west point

As far as basements in south Florida only if your home is already on stilts or on a built up ground.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> AAF would not have the capacity to actually handle an LD train in their station anyway.


Isn't the present state of wisdom that there will be two tracks for TriRail and two for AAF, leaving a fifth track "spare".
I'm not suggesting Amtrak use this but maybe FEC were thinking the occasional charter or something like that?


----------



## VentureForth

xyzzy said:


> Yeah, in the days of "old Florida" before Mickey there wasn't much in the vicinity of Orlando except swamp and farms. I'm still amazed that Disney was able to buy all that land without any leak until the last minute, just before the final deal closed. One of the great stories in business development.


For what it's worth, if you've ever heard about the tunnels at Walt Disney World, the fact of the matter is that the Magic Kingdom was built UP from ground level for the very reason of a shallow water table. The tunnels were built on ground level, and was backfilled with dirt excavated from what is now the Seven Seas Lagoon which lies between the park and the parking lot.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> AAF would not have the capacity to actually handle an LD train in their station anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the present state of wisdom that there will be two tracks for TriRail and two for AAF, leaving a fifth track "spare".
> I'm not suggesting Amtrak use this but maybe FEC were thinking the occasional charter or something like that?
Click to expand...

I don't know what the state of wisdom is, but AAF has stated in a presentation that currently they are installing 3 platform tracks for their own use, and making provision for two additional platform tracks which will be put in when Tri-Rail comes around to do so. There is absolutely no mention of Amtrak and AmtrakKL is absolutely right in his/her contention that Amtrak would be unable to justify the expense of operating at two sets of stations south of WPB. Amtrak will use MIC Airport Station irrespective of which route it takes from JAX to WPB. They just might happen to operate 4 trains a day out of there instead of two.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, in the days of "old Florida" before Mickey there wasn't much in the vicinity of Orlando except swamp and farms. I'm still amazed that Disney was able to buy all that land without any leak until the last minute, just before the final deal closed. One of the great stories in business development.
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, if you've ever heard about the tunnels at Walt Disney World, the fact of the matter is that the Magic Kingdom was built UP from ground level for the very reason of a shallow water table. The tunnels were built on ground level, and was backfilled with dirt excavated from what is now the Seven Seas Lagoon which lies between the park and the parking lot.
Click to expand...

I've heard something similar about Universal Studios, only that there they didn't even even fill it up with soil but everything is on pillars with the spaec underneath used for service pipes, cables etc. I guess this makes it easier to fix stuff or make changes than if it were all buried.


----------



## west point

This poster agrees that Amtrak would want to join the TriRail tracks just north of West Palm Beach. The connecting track is interesting. Although have not seen it in years it must be excepted track with a 10 MPH speed board. At that time al rail and ties would have to be replaced.. Most grade crossing have no automatic gate protection. The line runs by a cemetery that contains the remains of many persons that perished in the hurricane that destroyed the Key West FEC route.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Fwiw, I was at the Miami Airport station today and noticed construction work on a new road for the bypass. The grade crossing had already been installed. I don't think it's unrealistic for Amtrak to move in before the end of the year.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

chrsjrcj said:


> Fwiw, I was at the Miami Airport station today and noticed construction work on a new road for the bypass. The grade crossing had already been installed. I don't think it's unrealistic for Amtrak to move in before the end of the year.


There are other factor$ beyond the road crossing holding Amtrak up at this point...


----------



## jis

AmtrakLKL said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fwiw, I was at the Miami Airport station today and noticed construction work on a new road for the bypass. The grade crossing had already been installed. I don't think it's unrealistic for Amtrak to move in before the end of the year.
> 
> 
> 
> There are other factor$ beyond the road crossing holding Amtrak up at this point...
Click to expand...

I had a conversation with a gentleman in the know in Jacksonville at the end of the Gulf test special, and he re-iterated that it will be a long time before Amtrak moves to MIC. There is a lot that needs to change before that will happen, not just the bypass road.


----------



## Palmetto

How about specifics? Possible?


----------



## jis

Nothing beyond what I have posted from me. My lips are sealed.


----------



## M&O

I think one leg of the wye has been removed (not to say it could not be reinstalled - may be a Metrorail pier in the old alignment). More cost for Amtrak but movement back and forth to Hialeah facility for service will probably resemble the old Seaboard days to the 7th Avenue station: a switch engine to haul it back and forth (too many crossings (8) and too far (4 miles) for a shove move?) (The Star does shove move in Tampa twice a day of over 2 miles and more than a dozen two-lane, gated street crossings - conductor stands in vestibule of last car (Star always backs in) with his radio in hand)


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I had a conversation with a gentleman in the know in Jacksonville at the end of the Gulf test special, and he re-iterated that it will be a long time before Amtrak moves to MIC. There is a lot that needs to change before that will happen, not just the bypass road.


Someone needs their head pulled out of their ass, I assume?
Because there should be precisely zero technical obstacles to moving Amtrak into the platforms shared with Tri-Rail. (If it's an Amtrak-only platform... they need to raise it for ADA reasons, but they can probably get a temporary waiver because the current Miami Amtrak station isn't compliant either.)

If there are any further obstacles, they must be obstacles in the form of obstructionist people who need to lose their jobs.


----------



## jis

Suffice it to say that throwing a hissy fit here is unlikely to make any difference to the net outcome on this


----------



## jis

One of the factors that AmtrakLKL may be alluding to above is that FDOT is planning to charge Amtrak some large sum of money to move to and operate from the Miami Airport station. Amtrak is basically saying that they don't see any reason to pay what they consider to be an extraordinarily large sum to move when they are doing fine at their current facility. This is similar to the kabuki dance that Amtrak went through with CDTA in Albany until an alternative arrangement was found to make Amtrak good in terms of cost of operation from the new building.

And then there are some serious ADA issues that still need to be resolved apparently.

So yeah, don't expect a move anytime soon. Currently things are pretty much deadlocked, and the current state administration doesn't care enough apparently to do anything about it, never mind that they are sitting on an asset that is just sitting there unused.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

M&O said:


> I think one leg of the wye has been removed (not to say it could not be reinstalled - may be a Metrorail pier in the old alignment). More cost for Amtrak but movement back and forth to Hialeah facility for service will probably resemble the old Seaboard days to the 7th Avenue station: a switch engine to haul it back and forth (too many crossings (8) and too far (4 miles) for a shove move?) (The Star does shove move in Tampa twice a day of over 2 miles and more than a dozen two-lane, gated street crossings - conductor stands in vestibule of last car (Star always backs in) with his radio in hand)


The south leg of the wye is gone, but a wye switch was installed when the new station tracks were laid. Don't believe there are any obstructions on the alignment, but there is no need for a wye at this time or in the foreseeable future. Even if there were a need, who would pay for it?



neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a conversation with a gentleman in the know in Jacksonville at the end of the Gulf test special, and he re-iterated that it will be a long time before Amtrak moves to MIC. There is a lot that needs to change before that will happen, not just the bypass road.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone needs their head pulled out of their ass, I assume?
> 
> Because there should be precisely zero technical obstacles to moving Amtrak into the platforms shared with Tri-Rail. (If it's an Amtrak-only platform... they need to raise it for ADA reasons, but they can probably get a temporary waiver because the current Miami Amtrak station isn't compliant either.)
> 
> If there are any further obstacles, they must be obstacles in the form of obstructionist people who need to lose their jobs.
Click to expand...

I think everyone agree$ there are no technical obstacle$ preventing Amtrak from operating out of the MIC. There are non-technical i$$ue$, though.


----------



## west point

Would not like a shove move. About 8 grade crossings including NW 74th (?) street next to metro and NW 36th street which is a very major street near airport and often have seen it fouled. Terrible traffic during rush hours.

A switch engine could pull train to the north leg of wye, disconnect and go on wye, then Amtrak could back into station.

For the train to pull forward from Hialeah and go onto wye would have to foul both LaJune road and also the end of the east - west freeway that is a main entrance to MIA airport. Then if an arriving train had to back over these roads can you hear the howls waiting for the wye switch to be reversed ?

Then there is the factor that stopping originating Hialeah give maintenance at least 1 extra hour every day for turns which will become even more important as trains gets longer.


----------



## erierail

In reference to FDOT trying to charge Amtrak a high rent for moving into Miami central, this is an issue Amtrak has faced before. Back when they built the new station in recenseller / Albany ny, the cdta tried to do the same thing. Amtrak refused to pay the high rent and did not move into the new station. It stood vacant for week before a new deal was work out. Hopefully both parties can reach an agreement.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Is it officially known what date the Silver Service will be move to Miami Airport Station?


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Is it officially known what date the Silver Service will be move to Miami Airport Station?


Sounds like the move is in jeopardy of never happening. Apparently Miami wants more money than Amtrak wants to spend.


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Is it officially known what date the Silver Service will be move to Miami Airport Station?


It is officially known that no date has been set yet, and no date has been set for setting an official date yet either. In short it is firmly in limbo.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it officially known what date the Silver Service will be move to Miami Airport Station?
> 
> 
> 
> It is officially known that no date has been set yet, and no date has been set for setting an official date yet either. In short it is firmly in limbo.
Click to expand...

LOL! I drove by the place yesterday, using NW 25th St. That's the street on the north end of the station that the Amtrak trains would block when in the station. There is absolutely nothing going on to address the situation. So +1 on your post, Jis.


----------



## west point

Have not been there for several years. Is NW 25th still used as the short cut to River drive? Maybe a signal on LaJune tied to the crossing signal would state street blocked at RR crossing.?


----------



## Palmetto

Actually, upon entering the airport [from the south] follow the signs for the Rental Car Center, which is directly adjacent to the railroad station. That puts you on NW 25th St, eastbound. You can then actually drive around the station property by making all right-hand turns, after you cross the tracks. Lejeune Rd. is west of the facility about 3 blocks.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> I think everyone agree$ there are no technical obstacle$ preventing Amtrak from operating out of the MIC. There are non-technical i$$ue$, though.


Jackass state officials... I can believe that.

So, step one, get rid of the governor who is an unindicted coconspirator in the biggest fraud ever committed against Medicare and Medicaid. A non-criminal governor would probably appoint better-behaved officials. Florida's criminal governor has been reported to have repeatedly appointed "officials" who request bribes.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Sounds like progress is being made and service to the MIA Airport will begin this summer. I've heard speculation ranging between June and August. Considering they've started paying T&E crews to qualify to the airport, I'd say the rumors have some truth.


----------



## KauaiJohn

Why not just forget Miami (the whole place is as screwed up as the train station) get off at the Hollywood station in Broward County and have a nice visit to Fort Lauderdale


----------



## jis

KauaiJohn said:


> Why not just forget Miami (the whole place is as screwed up as the train station) get off at the Hollywood station in Broward County and have a nice visit to Fort Lauderdale


This is your intelligent constructive contribution to a thread on Miami Central Station? Really? Hope you are joking and forgot to include a smiley


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> KauaiJohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just forget Miami (the whole place is as screwed up as the train station) get off at the Hollywood station in Broward County and have a nice visit to Fort Lauderdale
> 
> 
> 
> This is your intelligent constructive contribution to a thread on Miami Central Station? Really? Hope you are joking and forgot to include a smiley
Click to expand...

Yeah, whether or not someone likes Miami is really irrelevant to this thread. In addition, if someone wanted to go to Ft. Lauderdale, why would they get off at Hollywood?

As to the new station, if the above is true that is great news. It will be far better than the current location with rental cars, Metrorail, Metrobus, intercity busses, and the airport people mover at the same location as Amtrak. While not technically in city limits, that is only because of the tiny physical size of Miami. The new location is also closer to downtown and Miami Beach. I still wish this would have been planned better and Amtrak could go to the downtown station instead, but it is too late for that now and this is still a vast improvement.


----------



## CraigDK

It certainly would be nice to have this resolved and have Amtrak offering service to MIA. How many other Amtrak station offer an airport connection? I can think of only three (BWI, Newark, & Milwaukee) off the top of my head.


----------



## jis

CraigDK said:


> It certainly would be nice to have this resolved and have Amtrak offering service to MIA. How many other Amtrak station offer an airport connection? I can think of only three (BWI, Newark, & Milwaukee) off the top of my head.


Newark Airport Station (via the Airtrain) does but not the downtown Newark Penn Station. Similarly the Milwaukee Airport Station does not the Milwaukee Station. There is Burbank too. And of course Oakland Coliseum for Oakland Airport (with a little gymnastics).


----------



## Hal

jis said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly would be nice to have this resolved and have Amtrak offering service to MIA. How many other Amtrak station offer an airport connection? I can think of only three (BWI, Newark, & Milwaukee) off the top of my head.
> 
> 
> 
> Newark Airport Station (via the Airtrain) does but not the downtown Newark Penn Station. Similarly the Milwaukee Airport Station does not the Milwaukee Station. There is Burbank too. And of course Oakland Coliseum for Oakland Airport (with a little gymnastics).
Click to expand...

Philadelphia 30th St. Station via Septa's Airport line. Works pretty well.


----------



## Ryan

DCA from ALX is super easy as well.


----------



## jis

If a transit ride is included then Logan from South Station by Silver Line is pretty convenient in Boston too.


----------



## Bob Dylan

It is now possible to get to DFW from Union Station in Dallas via DART Rail and also Ft.Worth via TRE and a bus from Center Point Station.

St. Louis is also very easy since the Light Rail stop by tbe Intermodel Station in downtown takes you right to Lindbergh Field.


----------



## jis

Add Seattle (Seatac) and Portland via Light Rail from the city Amtrak station.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

The easiest airport connection not yet mentioned is probably Denver. JFK can be accessed via the subway and AirTrain. Both Chicago airports are accessible via the CTA and a short walk. SFO and Oakland Airports can be reached by BART. If Cleveland ever gets better schedules, that is another possibility via local transit. Atlanta can be accessed via MARTA and a mile walk or bus ride. MSP can be reached via 2 light rail lines.

As to the Miami situation, is it known how the downtown Tri-Rail branch will be operated? Will the trains simply alternate, and will there be shuttle trains for the opposite endpoint?


----------



## Mark P

jis said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> It certainly would be nice to have this resolved and have Amtrak offering service to MIA. How many other Amtrak station offer an airport connection? I can think of only three (BWI, Newark, & Milwaukee) off the top of my head.
> 
> 
> 
> Newark Airport Station (via the Airtrain) does but not the downtown Newark Penn Station. Similarly the Milwaukee Airport Station does not the Milwaukee Station. There is Burbank too. And of course Oakland Coliseum for Oakland Airport (with a little gymnastics).
Click to expand...

There are no Amtrak stations directly at any terminals in the U.S. But there are several Amtrak stations that are near the airport and are easily reached by a people mover or a dedicated shuttle bus:

NE Regional - EWR (AirTrain)

NE Regional - BWI (Shuttle bus)

Silver Service - MIA (MIA Mover)

Capitol Corridor - OAC (AirBART)

Hiawatha - MKA (Shuttle bus)

Coast Starlight/Pacific Surfliner - BUR (Shuttle bus or walk)

If you have any interest in reading about other rail-to-airport locations, you can check out the thesis I wrote about the topic in 2012.

http://theses.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-05142012-101644/unrestricted/Peterson_MW_T_2012.pdf

Obviously, there have been a few new ones since then, and I captured as many as I could that were in the works at the time.


----------



## jis

Coming to think of it, the NJT 62 Bus from NWK (Newark Penn Station) to Newark Airport is actually quite convenient and much cheaper than the Air Train extravaganza from the Newark Airport Station, which appears to be more and more broken of late.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> As to the Miami situation, is it known how the downtown Tri-Rail branch will be operated? Will the trains simply alternate, and will there be shuttle trains for the opposite endpoint?


When the downtown connection opens, the plan is to alternate trains between there and the airport. That means hourly service to each endpoint during rush-hour and bi-hourly on off-peak and weekends.


----------



## jis

Yup, and no shuttle between downtown and airport, since that would be redundant with Metro. Also I don't believe that the connection is being built in the southeast quadrant of the crossover between FEC and Tri-Rail in Hialeah.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> Yup, and no shuttle between downtown and airport, since that would be redundant with Metro. Also I don't believe that the connection is being built in the southeast quadrant of the crossover between FEC and Tri-Rail in Hialeah.


I doubted there would be one anyway, but I was thinking of it leaving from Metrorail Transfer.


----------



## mfastx

What will happen to the current Miami Station once Amtrak moves? Just abandonment?


----------



## VentureForth

Doubt it. Their overnight maintenance will probably occur there as well as the actual turn around.

Are the platforms still too short?


----------



## jis

Incidentally, the name of the station at the Airport is the Miami Intermodal Center at Miami Airport, or simply the Airport Station or Miami Airport Station.

The moniker Miami Central Station has now been firmly assigned to the AAF station in Miami Downtown.

The length of the platform upto the edge of the 25th St grade crossing is something like 1020' or so (measuring on Google Map), which will probably fit a 10 car train with two engines, which is a tad short for the Meteor. The length of the siding to foul mark is something like slightly short of 1400', which is plenty of space to fit almost anything that Amtrak will ever bring in, unless they have many many PV attached, but don't see any signs of any extended platform in the Google Maps 2017 imagery, beyond 25th St.

One way to mitigate the problem may be to place the Baggage Car always in the rear so that it hangs out beyond the platform. Of course for those situations the 25th St crossing will have to remain closed for the duration that said train occupies the platform. This will be an issue only with the Meteor at the present time.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The platforms at the MIC do not go past 25th street. What google does not show is that the bypass at 28th street is completely functional now.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I believe Tri-Rail may have to run a shuttle from Metrorail and the MIC, because part of the deal to get federal funding for the double tracking project was that Tri-Rail would run 50 trains on the corridor each weekday. This was also briefly mentioned at a board meeting a few months back.


----------



## niemi24s

chrsjrcj said:


> What google does not show is that the bypass at 28th street is completely functional now.


By bypass, do you mean the wye to the West of the tracks?


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> The platforms at the MIC do not go past 25th street. What google does not show is that the bypass at 28th street is completely functional now.


So that stub of 28th has been extended to join up into the parking lot?


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> I believe Tri-Rail may have to run a shuttle from Metrorail and the MIC, because part of the deal to get federal funding for the double tracking project was that Tri-Rail would run 50 trains on the corridor each weekday. This was also briefly mentioned at a board meeting a few months back.


Connecting with the TriRails going to Miami Central I suppose?


----------



## chrsjrcj

niemi24s said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> What google does not show is that the bypass at 28th street is completely functional now.
> 
> 
> 
> By bypass, do you mean the wye to the West of the tracks?
Click to expand...




jis said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> The platforms at the MIC do not go past 25th street. What google does not show is that the bypass at 28th street is completely functional now.
> 
> 
> 
> So that stub of 28th has been extended to join up into the parking lot?
Click to expand...

A new road crossing. Runs E to W from 37th Ave to 39th Ave.


----------



## ainamkartma

jis said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> The platforms at the MIC do not go past 25th street. What google does not show is that the bypass at 28th street is completely functional now.
> 
> 
> 
> So that stub of 28th has been extended to join up into the parking lot?
Click to expand...

According to waze.com, the east-west section of 28th (south of the park-n-fly) has been extended directly east across the tracks, to join up with 37th about half way between the other, northern 28th st and 25 st.

Go to waze.com and then click "live map" and zoom right in to see the current map.

Kind of surprising that google maps doesn't include this data, since google owns waze. For those who don't know, waze is continuously updated by crowd sourcing, so it tends to give you an up to date picture of the connections.

Ainamkartma


----------



## niemi24s

Ah, a bypass for vehicular traffic. Google Earth and the satellite imagery of Google Maps appear to show it under construction, but the imagery is about 13½ months old. Thanks for the link to Waze - it's now #27 in my Favorites map folder. Can never have too many maps!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

AmtrakLKL said:


> Sounds like progress is being made and service to the MIA Airport will begin this summer. I've heard speculation ranging between June and August. Considering they've started paying T&E crews to qualify to the airport, I'd say the rumors have some truth.


Disregard. Couple people qualified and then things promptly ground to a halt. "Indefinite" is the word of the decade (and probably the next decade.) I suspect Brightline will be serving Jacksonville with hourly coastal service before Amtrak can move four miles south to a facility that is already built and waiting.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

I got a few pictures of the parts of the Airport Station relevant to Amtrak while exploring the trains of Miami today. Here they are:






For those unfamiliar with the current station, here are a few pictures from yesterday after I detrained from 91.


----------



## daybeers

AmtrakLKL said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like progress is being made and service to the MIA Airport will begin this summer. I've heard speculation ranging between June and August. Considering they've started paying T&E crews to qualify to the airport, I'd say the rumors have some truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Disregard. Couple people qualified and then things promptly ground to a halt. "Indefinite" is the word of the decade (and probably the next decade.) I suspect Brightline will be serving Jacksonville with hourly coastal service before Amtrak can move four miles south to a facility that is already built and waiting.
Click to expand...

Really?! So disappointing. Any particular reason for this?


----------



## frequentflyer

daybeers said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like progress is being made and service to the MIA Airport will begin this summer. I've heard speculation ranging between June and August. Considering they've started paying T&E crews to qualify to the airport, I'd say the rumors have some truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Disregard. Couple people qualified and then things promptly ground to a halt. "Indefinite" is the word of the decade (and probably the next decade.) I suspect Brightline will be serving Jacksonville with hourly coastal service before Amtrak can move four miles south to a facility that is already built and waiting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really?! So disappointing. Any particular reason for this?
Click to expand...

You do know the present station is at the yard the trains are serviced. The new shiny station by the airport is 3.7 miles away backup move through who know how many crossings.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Miami,+FL/@25.7975115,-80.2587793,409m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88d9b0a20ec8c111:0xff96f271ddad4f65!8m2!3d25.7616798!4d-80.1917902

And did the consist length thing was never really figured out other than supposedly closing the street while the train is at the station.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Miami,+FL/@25.8248447,-80.2748365,7771m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88d9b0a20ec8c111:0xff96f271ddad4f65!8m2!3d25.7616798!4d-80.1917902


----------



## chrsjrcj

They built the street bypass about a year ago. Considering the current state of Amtrak, I doubt the MIC will see an Amtrak train.


----------



## GBNorman

A move from the existing station will not save any $$$, and in fact will cost. The FEC will be happy, eight less moves over the Iris X-ing.

Trains will have to be ready for release from the yards at least an hour earlier, and arriving trains not available to the yard until same later. If the FEC has traffic to move, add to that hour. So far as movements go over the X-ing, Tri Rail is "more or less" on time, Amtrak?????

Concerning passenger convenience, only passengers who wish to use Metrorail to/from final destination and those desiring to rent an auto would benefit. Those who are being picked up or dropped off by private vehicle will be adversely affected; parking is free at the existing station; hardly so at MCS. Taxicabs may have to pay an access fee to MCS or the Airport; that of course means passengers will pay access fees; not so at the existing station.

The objective under the Anderson regime is clearly to operate the LD's as economically and efficiently as possible. I recognize and respect that many here hold making the product attractive should be first and foremost, but apparently Amtrak's record $1.9B "haul" appears to be more related to that Amtrak's FY17 deficit is probably, adjusted for inflation, the lowest ever recorded over the now past 47 years than to the quality of the LD product.

All told, there's "nothing in it" for Amtrak's operations; best advice, just stay put.


----------



## jis

There is no9 money, no plan, nothing to build a platform extension north of 25th St crossing either.


----------



## frequentflyer

A shame really, looks like a nice facility and quick access to hwy 953 then to I95 (no more tourist getting lost in the bad neighborhoods getting robbed or killed, remember the 90s?).

Something definitely got lost in communications between Amtrak and the agency involved in constructing this. Must be par for the course in South Florida on construction projects. AA had take over the building of its billion dollar terminal in MIA because of cost overruns and ineptitude.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> There is no9 money, no plan, nothing to build a platform extension north of 25th St crossing either.


Is there any way Amtrak could serve the station without this getting done? The current platform length can accommodate 12 cars. For the SM, that would likely mean 5 coaches, a cafe, a diner, 4 sleepers, and a baggage car. While it is occasionally longer than that, that is relatively rare. Going southbound, the engines would remove access to the baggage car and a sleeper. If Amtrak employees are able to access the baggage car when it is beyond the platform, that car is a non-issue. Otherwise, it could be placed in the front of the consist. As to the passenger cars, I don't see why that is a huge issue, as even on a sold out train, less than 1/3 of the train's capacity typically use Miami due to being discharge/recieve only from West Palm Beach south. It is definitely an annoyance, but I don't see why Amtrak couldn't make it work if they really wanted to. Obviously an extended platform should be built in the long term, but many stations make it work with shorter platforms (I know a double stop is not possible at this station, but as I explained, there are workarounds). If I am missing something, please explain.


----------



## jis

There are always workarounds available even if there was no platform






From Amtrak's point of view, they move from a facility that is their own and they don't have to pay any rent and is quite adequate. Only the location is a little less than desirable. They are being asked to move to a facility that would cost them extra money and operation will overall be more difficult costing even more money. I suspect they would move there and take the lumps if it was indeed a superior facility. but since it is not, and indeed arguably operationally it is way inferior, they will drag their feet until someone forces them to move by providing monetary incentive, or someone at least funds fixing the station.

It is as simple as that. I remember the right hand man of Boardman telling me exactly this when I met him during the NOL - JAX test run event several years back. Nothing has changed since then, and if anything everyone's position seems to have hardened.


----------



## frequentflyer

After looking at the map, the only MIA airport station works for Amtrak is if they move their yard closer. There is no way or place to bring the yard closer unless you buy out some warehouses River Drive. And as JIS stated, unless someone brings alot of money (politicians love "job making programs") the move south is not ( or ain't) happening.

I was like many here was wandering why Amtrak would not want to move into a new facility. After researching it, its plain to see that someone forgot to ask the operations people.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

That is sort of the point I was trying to make. Not that Amtrak is going to move into the new station soon, but that they could if they wanted to and they are the ones preventing the change. Without a doubt, the new station would be operationally more difficult. The benefit would come to the passengers, with direct connections to Metrorail as well as many bus routes, rental cars, and the Airport. The station itself is also in a better area and appears more modern, although it is roughly the same size as the current one if not smaller. Regardless of who is to blame for this project, a politician could use it as an example of government waste on Amtrak with it being a brand new station with 4 tracks and 2 platforms (Tri-Rail usually only uses one track and never more than two, both of which use the same platform). As shown in my pictures, the Amtrak building is also entirely completed and even signed with the Amtrak logo as well as some things in the interior such as the restrooms and the signs pointing to them.


----------



## jis

We can make all the arguments we want here over and over and over again. It will not change a thing though.






And Politicians can make a point over and over and over, as long as they don't bring money to the table, or arrange some other attractive quid pro quo, nothing is going to change.

If everyone who claims Amtrak should be run as a business ( and I have not come across too many politicians who don't) is serious about it, the basic computation here would be "Does extending service cover the cost of doing so from added revenue?". At least Boardman's regime claimed it would not. I doubt that Anderson's will think differently. Unfortunately.


----------



## chrsjrcj

FDOT was in charge of the project and blamed Amtrak, when as far as I understand it, no one asked Amtrak how long the platform should be. The original Miami Airport platform actually extended further south, all the way to NW 21st Street.

Around the same time this was being constructed, there was excitement over Amtrak finally using the FEC between West Palm and Jacksonville. I believe FDOT either applied for a grant, or had made up the application for it. They even ran an inspection train from downtown Miami (not far from the present day Brightline station) to Jacksonville.

Then Rick Scott became governor and likely was behind mothballing that project in addition to the high speed rail. He was going to stop SunRail from starting construction, but our old friend John Mica convinced him otherwise.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The biggest reason for Amtrak to use the MIC would have been the addition of corridor trains along the FEC. The operating proposal I saw included a few Cocoa to Miami Airport trains (think Surfliner). Now, I dont see the benefit of a long distance train connecting to the airport. Maybe the rental car part is good, but many Miami Amtrak visitors are connecting to a cruise the next day.


----------



## MARC Rider

chrsjrcj said:


> Now, I dont see the benefit of a long distance train connecting to the airport. Maybe the rental car part is good, but many Miami Amtrak visitors are connecting to a cruise the next day.


Yes, and all of the decent hotels to stay at located near the airport. The area around the current Amtrak station is a bit marginal, so if you're arriving and you live out of town, you really need to get to the rental cars, as the Miami area is really the sort of place where you need a car, so access to the car rental is sort of a major requirement. As it currently stands, a taxi from the current Amtrak station to the airport rental car center costs about $20. I'd just rather go up the stairs and get my car. Drop-off is even more of a pain in the neck, as you have to rush from the airport to the station in a taxi during the morning rush hour.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

MARC Rider said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I dont see the benefit of a long distance train connecting to the airport. Maybe the rental car part is good, but many Miami Amtrak visitors are connecting to a cruise the next day.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and all of the decent hotels to stay at located near the airport. The area around the current Amtrak station is a bit marginal, so if you're arriving and you live out of town, you really need to get to the rental cars, as the Miami area is really the sort of place where you need a car, so access to the car rental is sort of a major requirement. As it currently stands, a taxi from the current Amtrak station to the airport rental car center costs about $20. I'd just rather go up the stairs and get my car. Drop-off is even more of a pain in the neck, as you have to rush from the airport to the station in a taxi during the morning rush hour.
Click to expand...

I agree that the Airport station is preferable in this regard, but another option with the current set-up is to take Tri-Rail north to an Amtrak station such as Hollywood.


----------



## Palmetto

Whose idea was it, in the first place, for Amtrak to go to the airport?


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> We can make all the arguments we want here over and over and over again. It will not change a thing though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Politicians can make a point over and over and over, as long as they don't bring money to the table, or arrange some other attractive quid pro quo, nothing is going to change.
> 
> If everyone who claims Amtrak should be run as a business ( and I have not come across too many politicians who don't) is serious about it, the basic computation here would be "Does extending service cover the cost of doing so from added revenue. At least Boardman's regime claimed it would not. I doubt that Anderson's will think differently. Unfortunately.


The answer is that extending service to an intermodal station covers the cost of doing so from added revenue. If Boardman's and Anderson's idiot staffers think otherwise, they are flatly wrong. There's plenty of evidence for the ridership and revenue increases from this sort of connection, and they're *large*. Increasing Miami revenue by 20%, which is the likely number, is not something to throw away for the operational convenience of lazy Amtrak employees.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> There are always workarounds available even if there was no platform
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Amtrak's point of view, they move from a facility that is their own and they don't have to pay any rent and is quite adequate. Only the location is a little less than desirable. They are being asked to move to a facility that would cost them extra money and operation will overall be more difficult costing even more money. I suspect they would move there and take the lumps if it was indeed a superior facility. but since it is not, and indeed arguably operationally it is way inferior, they will drag their feet until someone forces them to move by providing monetary incentive, or someone at least funds fixing the station.
> 
> It is as simple as that. I remember the right hand man of Boardman telling me exactly this when I met him during the NOL - JAX test run event several years back. Nothing has changed since then, and if anything everyone's position seems to have hardened.


Interesting to realize that Amtrak management is sufficiently incompetent that they don't understand the basic economic principles of train service. I had not realized that Boardman's right hand man was a moron who was unqualified to run anything in a railroad. Is that idiot still there?


----------



## neroden

frequentflyer said:


> After looking at the map, the only MIA airport station works for Amtrak is if they move their yard closer. There is no way or place to bring the yard closer unless you buy out some warehouses River Drive. And as JIS stated, unless someone brings alot of money (politicians love "job making programs") the move south is not ( or ain't) happening.
> 
> I was like many here was wandering why Amtrak would not want to move into a new facility. After researching it, its plain to see that someone forgot to ask the operations people.


That's because you TELL the operations people, you don't ask them. If you ask them, they'll be idiots and propose revenue-destroying policies, as we are discovering.

Well, perhaps it's all for the best anyway. Brightline is going to destroy Amtrak's Miami business pretty effectively. Arguably Amtrak should bite the bullet and relocate Hialeah shops to a more sensible location, like Pennsylvania. The Silver Service can reverse at Orlando, since nobody will be taking them south of Orlando in a few years.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Interesting to realize that Amtrak management is sufficiently incompetent that they don't understand the basic economic principles of train service. I had not realized that Boardman's right hand man was a moron who was unqualified to run anything in a railroad. Is that idiot still there?


It was Boardman's decision, not his right hand man's.



The decision was explained to me by his right hand man. I have not been keeping track but I suspect he effectively left with Boardman, or at least reverted out of management position anyway..


----------



## Seaboard92

Brian is still at Amtrak actually. He stepped down from his high position back to an engineer I believe. And he's far happier I believe.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Brian is still at Amtrak actually. He stepped down from his high position back to an engineer I believe. And he's far happier I believe.


That's what I vaguely recall, since I think I saw a Facebook post about qualifying for GCT or some such. So I figured that indicates back to Engineer, but did not check anything beyond that and did not ask him, though we have talked about other stuff on FB.


----------



## AG1

Why hasn't the title of this thread been corrected during the last 5 years ?. I thought Miami Central Station was in Miami city center and not at the airport.


----------



## Palmetto

Good question. And you're right. It was an error on other boards as well.


----------



## cpotisch

MMA said:


> Why hasn't the title of this thread been corrected during the last 5 years ?. I thought Miami Central Station was in Miami city center and not at the airport.


Why hasn't it been corrected? Because there's nothing to correct. Miami Central Station is an alternate name for the airport station.


----------



## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> Well, perhaps it's all for the best anyway. Brightline is going to destroy Amtrak's Miami business pretty effectively. Arguably Amtrak should bite the bullet and relocate Hialeah shops to a more sensible location, like Pennsylvania. The Silver Service can reverse at Orlando, since nobody will be taking them south of Orlando in a few years.


I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> MMA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why hasn't the title of this thread been corrected during the last 5 years ?. I thought Miami Central Station was in Miami city center and not at the airport.
> 
> 
> 
> Why hasn't it been corrected? Because there's nothing to correct. Miami Central Station is an alternate name for the airport station.
Click to expand...

Apparently its official name now is _Miami Intermodal Center (MIC)_ at Miami Airport. Metrorail calls it _Miami Airport Station_. Tri Rail calls it _Miami International Airport_. The station boards say _Miami Intermodal Cente_r. I can't find anywhere except on the Wikipedia and Curbed page where it is called Miami Central anymore, and those appear to be there from the time when it was indeed referred to as Miami Central, before Brightline happened, and hijacked the name, since that station really is in Central Miami. Wikipedia actually has changed the title of the page to Miami Airport Station, but still redirects Miami Central Station to Miami Airport Station, and has a new page titled MiamiCentral for the Brightline station in actual Central Miami.

So if it does not walk like a Duck, nor quacks like a Duck any more, maybe it has ceased to be a Duck, and should be thusly recognized by AU, instead of pointlessly leaning against windmills.



Palmetto said:


> Good question. And you're right. It was an error on other boards as well.


Once upon a time it was indeed called Miami Central while it was being planned. So the use of that monicker originally at AU was not an error.


----------



## pennyk

MARC Rider said:


> I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.


The "plan" is to run Brightline to the Orlando Airport and eventually possibly run SunRail to the airport. Currently, one can take SunRail from the Orlando Amtrak station to the Sand Lake Road SunRail station, then a bus to the airport. However, currently SunRail runs only on weekdays and there are gaps in coverage during non-peak hours.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

neroden said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> After looking at the map, the only MIA airport station works for Amtrak is if they move their yard closer. There is no way or place to bring the yard closer unless you buy out some warehouses River Drive. And as JIS stated, unless someone brings alot of money (politicians love "job making programs") the move south is not ( or ain't) happening.
> 
> I was like many here was wandering why Amtrak would not want to move into a new facility. After researching it, its plain to see that someone forgot to ask the operations people.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you TELL the operations people, you don't ask them. If you ask them, they'll be idiots and propose revenue-destroying policies, as we are discovering.
> 
> Well, perhaps it's all for the best anyway. Brightline is going to destroy Amtrak's Miami business pretty effectively. Arguably Amtrak should bite the bullet and relocate Hialeah shops to a more sensible location, like Pennsylvania. The Silver Service can reverse at Orlando, since nobody will be taking them south of Orlando in a few years.
Click to expand...

Unless/until Brightline extends to Jacksonville and Tampa, there will definitely still be significant Amtrak ridership throughout Florida. Based on my experiences on the Silver Star, few people travel from Orlando to South Florida on that train, with a very large number of passengers traveling north or south out of Tampa. The passengers coming from north of Orlando to South Florida would also likely prefer a one-seat ride to a cross-city transfer in Orlando. However, Orlando to South Florida traffic will be essentially destroyed. In my opinion, the best option is to split both Silver trains in Jacksonville with one segment running on the FEC to Miami (discharge/receive only at the Brightline stops) and the other running the current route of the Silver Star. This would provide much needed additional service to Tampa as well as faster service to South Florida, while maintaining all current stations with at least two frequencies per day. The only loss would be the SM routing south of Orlando, which would be nearly irrelevant with Brightline. The only passengers affected would be those travelling from Sebring or Winter Haven north, who would then have to take the detour via Tampa.


----------



## jis

pennyk said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.
> 
> 
> 
> The "plan" is to run Brightline to the Orlando Airport and eventually possibly run SunRail to the airport. Currently, one can take SunRail from the Orlando Amtrak station to the Sand Lake Road SunRail station, then a bus to the airport. However, currently SunRail runs only on weekdays and there are gaps in coverage during non-peak hours.
Click to expand...

Isn't there also a somewhat infrequent bus route with a stop within a couple of blocks of the Amtrak Station? I seem to recall finding one when I was looking for viable public transit means to travel from Orlando international Airport to Amtrak Station and decided that there really was none that was convenient for normal mortals (as opposed to public transit freaks



)


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MMA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why hasn't the title of this thread been corrected during the last 5 years ?. I thought Miami Central Station was in Miami city center and not at the airport.
> 
> 
> 
> Why hasn't it been corrected? Because there's nothing to correct. Miami Central Station is an alternate name for the airport station.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apparently its official name now is _Miami Intermodal Center (MIC)_ at Miami Airport. Metrorail calls it _Miami Airport Station_. Tri Rail calls it _Miami International Airport_. The station boards say _Miami Intermodal Cente_r. I can't find anywhere except on the Wikipedia and Curbed page where it is called Miami Central anymore, and those appear to be there from the time when it was indeed referred to as Miami Central, before Brightline happened, and hijacked the name, since that station really is in Central Miami. Wikipedia actually has changed the title of the page to Miami Airport Station, but still redirects Miami Central Station to Miami Airport Station, and has a new page titled MiamiCentral for the Brightline station in actual Central Miami.
> 
> So if it does not walk like a Duck, nor quacks like a Duck any more, maybe it has ceased to be a Duck, and should be thusly recognized by AU, instead of pointlessly leaning against windmills.
Click to expand...

To add on, the Tri-Rail platforms signage refers to the station as Miami Airport. It's not entirely relavent here, but another interestingly named station is the Tri-Rail/Metrorail transfer station, which is called Tri-Rail by Metrorail and Metrorail Transfer by Tri-Rail, which implies that is the only connecting point, especially with little to no signage about the possibility of connecting at the Airport. This made more sense before the Orange Line opened, allowing the connecting point at Miami Airport. While it is slightly longer, the low frequencies of the trains means that it is sometimes faster to transfer there instead. For example, while I was in the area I went to a Marlins game, which ended around 4:20. I was able to get an Orange Line train and have 5-10 minutes to connect with the 5:17 Tri-Rail, whereas the next Green Line train in 25 minutes would have missed the connection.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Welcome to the absurdity known as Miami Dade Transit.

There was an effort to increase ridership on the Orange line, by running trains every 15 minutes as opposed to every 30 minutes during the weekend. I believe they scraped that, because $.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

chrsjrcj said:


> Welcome to the absurdity known as Miami Dade Transit.
> 
> There was an effort to increase ridership on the Orange line, by running trains every 15 minutes as opposed to every 30 minutes during the weekend. I believe they scraped that, because $.


30 minute frequencies for rapid transit are ridiculous enough as it is, but the scheduling is what really struck me as absurd. Whenever a train on either line came, the other line followed within 5 minutes and then there was at least a 25 minute gap. Considering most riders use the segment where both lines run, this really reduces the efficiency of the system. It may be different on weekdays, but if they are really serious about saving money while harming as few passengers as possible they may as well run one of the lines west of Earlington Heights as a shuttle if they are going to be that close together. Having said that, Miami has easily the best transit system in Florida (not that that's saying much): in the Tampa area, there are no trains except a tourist streetcar and the Silver Star, and many of the bus routes operate on weekdays only with less than hourly schedules when they are running.


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.
> 
> 
> 
> The "plan" is to run Brightline to the Orlando Airport and eventually possibly run SunRail to the airport. Currently, one can take SunRail from the Orlando Amtrak station to the Sand Lake Road SunRail station, then a bus to the airport. However, currently SunRail runs only on weekdays and there are gaps in coverage during non-peak hours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't there also a somewhat infrequent bus route with a stop within a couple of blocks of the Amtrak Station? I seem to recall finding one when I was looking for viable public transit means to travel from Orlando international Airport to Amtrak Station and decided that there really was none that was convenient for normal mortals (as opposed to public transit freaks
> 
> 
> 
> )
Click to expand...

Yes, I have taken that bus to the Amtrak station from downtown (either before SunRail was running or when timing did not work), which travels further to the airport. A friend (a 93 year old who rides a scooter) took the bus last week from downtown and he said it was supposed to take about 50 minutes and took closer to 70 minutes (however, I did not double check his information). I think that bus runs once an hour.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The Lynx bus in Orlando is pretty annoying. Many busses are scheduled to run once per hour, and they don't follow the schedule at all, so you may wait over an hour for your bus.

Once Uber came about with an affordable option, I've never taken Lynx again in Orlando.


----------



## AG1

I see the title was corrected. Thank you !


----------



## Caesar La Rock

jis said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.
> 
> 
> 
> The "plan" is to run Brightline to the Orlando Airport and eventually possibly run SunRail to the airport. Currently, one can take SunRail from the Orlando Amtrak station to the Sand Lake Road SunRail station, then a bus to the airport. However, currently SunRail runs only on weekdays and there are gaps in coverage during non-peak hours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't there also a somewhat infrequent bus route with a stop within a couple of blocks of the Amtrak Station? I seem to recall finding one when I was looking for viable public transit means to travel from Orlando international Airport to Amtrak Station and decided that there really was none that was convenient for normal mortals (as opposed to public transit freaks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
Click to expand...




crescent-zephyr said:


> The Lynx bus in Orlando is pretty annoying. Many busses are scheduled to run once per hour, and they don't follow the schedule at all, so you may wait over an hour for your bus.
> 
> Once Uber came about with an affordable option, I've never taken Lynx again in Orlando.



About good ol' Lynx, going a bit off topic for this. You would have to take two buses 11/40 between OIA and the Amtrak station. The best bus service from an Amtrak station in this city is the one in Winter Park. The 102 operates every 15 minutes between Downtown Orlando and Fern Park.

There are three other routes that serve the station during the morning and afternoon peak and finally another route that serves the station regularly (two of these routes go out to Pine Hills, one to Springs Village Shopping Center, and finally the Altamonte Mall.

Those four routes operate every hour. Most of Lynx's bus routes operate every half hour, although 20+ years ago when I started riding, that wasn't the case. As for following the schedules, its no lie that due to a shortage of bus drivers, some runs are actually missed and the public never knows about it. I was told most of the rookie drivers don't last long, due to the fact that drivers may not always get the chance to use the bathroom.

Not an easy job and its next to impossible to stay on time, because of traffic and passengers taking their time to board or pay the fare. The early morning and night runs are exceptions to that. Hope that answers all.


----------



## VentureForth

Lynx buses are so unreliable that I've seen two same-number buses back to back because the first one was that late. smh...


----------



## cpotisch

MMA said:


> I see the title was corrected. Thank you !


The way I see it, the title was _changed_. Miami Central is still accurate, just not the official name anymore.


----------



## jis

Yup. Just like referring to New York as New Amsterdam is accurate too.


----------



## frequentflyer

jis said:


> Yup. Just like referring to New York as New Amsterdam is accurate too.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Yup. Just like referring to New York as New Amsterdam is accurate too.


----------



## cpotisch

They either edited the title again or I just didn't notice all of it the first time (probably the latter), but I will say that "Miami Intermodal Center (f/k/a Miami Central Station)" is dead on. And there's a difference between a 500 year old name like New Amsterdam, and a one year old name like Miami Central.


----------



## Ryan

It was like that.


----------



## neroden

MARC Rider said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, perhaps it's all for the best anyway. Brightline is going to destroy Amtrak's Miami business pretty effectively. Arguably Amtrak should bite the bullet and relocate Hialeah shops to a more sensible location, like Pennsylvania. The Silver Service can reverse at Orlando, since nobody will be taking them south of Orlando in a few years.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.
Click to expand...

For now, Brightline won't completely wipe out Amtrak ridership because it isn't going to Tampa yet. However, Brightline has plans to expand to both Tampa and Jacksonville, and I personally expect them to happen. That'll be the end for Amtrak's ridership in Florida. Given that Brightline is moving pretty fast and that extensions are always easier than the first line, I expect Brightline to be in Tampa and Jacksonville within 10 years. The Hialeah location will be a liability worse than Beech Grove at that point.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.
> 
> 
> 
> The "plan" is to run Brightline to the Orlando Airport and eventually possibly run SunRail to the airport. Currently, one can take SunRail from the Orlando Amtrak station to the Sand Lake Road SunRail station, then a bus to the airport. However, currently SunRail runs only on weekdays and there are gaps in coverage during non-peak hours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't there also a somewhat infrequent bus route with a stop within a couple of blocks of the Amtrak Station? I seem to recall finding one when I was looking for viable public transit means to travel from Orlando international Airport to Amtrak Station and decided that there really was none that was convenient for normal mortals (as opposed to public transit freaks
> 
> 
> 
> )
Click to expand...

I think that description fits quite a few destinations in Orlando area. LYNX's new slogan could be "we come within a few blocks of almost going to most places".


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, perhaps it's all for the best anyway. Brightline is going to destroy Amtrak's Miami business pretty effectively. Arguably Amtrak should bite the bullet and relocate Hialeah shops to a more sensible location, like Pennsylvania. The Silver Service can reverse at Orlando, since nobody will be taking them south of Orlando in a few years.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Brightline will run to the Orlando Airport, not the Orlando Amtrak station. Travelers from the north will still appreciate a one-seat ride to Miami without having to mess around with a transfer that would include a fairly substantial bus ride.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For now, Brightline won't completely wipe out Amtrak ridership because it isn't going to Tampa yet. However, Brightline has plans to expand to both Tampa and Jacksonville, and I personally expect them to happen. That'll be the end for Amtrak's ridership in Florida. Given that Brightline is moving pretty fast and that extensions are always easier than the first line, I expect Brightline to be in Tampa and Jacksonville within 10 years. The Hialeah location will be a liability worse than Beech Grove at that point.
Click to expand...

If Amtrak decides to curtail services to say, Jacksonville, this would seriously impact ridership on the Silvers. Maybe the more adventurous travellers would work out how to book a Brightline ticket for onward travel. But with the risk of late running on Amtrak, they might have to wait until they actually arrive before thzey do that, which would mean all low bucket seats would be gone. And even if Amtrak and Brightline manage to cooperate to the point of actually serving the same sttaion in Jacksonville, would they manage to offer thru checked luggage?

Today, the Silvers don't turn at DC either. They continue further north despite "competing" with services that are probbale more attractive, Amtrak undestands people want a single seat journey and don't want to change trains. I don't expect Florida wll be any different.

What is at risk of course is the intra-state ridership in Florida. .


----------



## me_little_me

cirdan said:


> What is at risk of course is the intra-state ridership in Florida. .


Correct.

If and unless Amtrak solves their problems with freights, they will always have problems with on-time arrivals into Florida. On on-time Brightline train or a late Amtrak train delayed before ever hitting Florida?

If and unless Amtrak solves its inability to keep restrooms clean on southbound trains after a day of travel, people in Florida will take a train that has clean ones.


----------



## wi-smb

Im sure Amtrak could share booking services with Brightline like theyve agreed to with Texas Central (for whenever that service actually starts). This could have the effect of a single ticket ride from Silver Service to Brightline.


----------



## cpotisch

wi-smb said:


> Im sure Amtrak could share booking services with Brightline like theyve agreed to with Texas Central (for whenever that service actually starts). This could have the effect of a single ticket ride from Silver Service to Brightline.


I doubt it. The two companies are in competition and I doubt that they'd want to work together. If Amtrak let you book a single ticket ride from the Silvers to Brightline, they would be losing out on the revenue for that leg. I just don't see why they'd want to do that. Also bear in mind that they don't use the same stations.


----------



## chrsjrcj

wi-smb said:


> Im sure Amtrak could share booking services with Brightline like theyve agreed to with Texas Central (for whenever that service actually starts). This could have the effect of a single ticket ride from Silver Service to Brightline.


That was ruled out when the STB decided they didn't have jurisdiction over Brightline.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

me_little_me said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is at risk of course is the intra-state ridership in Florida. .
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.
> 
> If and unless Amtrak solves their problems with freights, they will always have problems with on-time arrivals into Florida. On on-time Brightline train or a late Amtrak train delayed before ever hitting Florida?
> 
> If and unless Amtrak solves its inability to keep restrooms clean on southbound trains after a day of travel, people in Florida will take a train that has clean ones.
Click to expand...

In addition, Brightline trains are faster, cleaner, have far more frequencies, and tend to have better station locations.


----------



## neroden

If Brightline reaches Tampa and Jacksonville, intra-Florida Amtrak ridership (which is large) will fall off to near-zero. NEC-Miami and NEC-Tampa service would also drop off significantly. I expect NEC-Orlando traffic would survive, but given that ridership in Georgia/South Carolina/North Carolina is anemic, the financial performance of the Silver Service will crater.

If Amtrak had any sense, it would be upgrading the Lake Shore Limited, for which there is no competition coming any time soon. But Amtrak's current CEO is an idiot.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I honestly think it remains to be seen how much of an impact Brightline has on Amtrak ridership in Florida. That is also dependent on whether a full build out even occurs.

On a smaller scale- Tri-Rail's numbers for the first 4 months of 2018 (BL was running between WPB to FTL at this point) are higher than '17. I would say Brightline had zero effect on Tri-Rail ridership, so far. I'll be interested to see June's, but I think the trend will continue. The Tri-Rail train I rode yesterday had quite a bit more people than I remember on a typical midday trip during the week.

Price will be a big factor too. I can pay $34 to ride the SM from WPB to Orlando tomorrow. I am sure Brightline will exceed that.


----------



## RPC

neroden said:


> If Brightline reaches Tampa and Jacksonville, intra-Florida Amtrak ridership (which is large) will fall off to near-zero. NEC-Miami and NEC-Tampa service would also drop off significantly. I expect NEC-Orlando traffic would survive, but given that ridership in Georgia/South Carolina/North Carolina is anemic, the financial performance of the Silver Service will crater.
> 
> If Amtrak had any sense, it would be upgrading the Lake Shore Limited, for which there is no competition coming any time soon. But Amtrak's current CEO is an idiot.


Perhaps eventually, but i don't see this being a problem for a while (years). Right now changing to Brightline at WPB makes no sense except for the novelty. Even when the extension is complete, you'd have to get from downtown Orlando to the airport to ride - might as well stay in your seat/room, at least on the Meteor.

I agree that providing a flagship New York-Chicago service makes sense. Maybe Ed Ellis should stick a couple of cars on there...



(duck & cover)


----------



## MikefromCrete

RPC said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Brightline reaches Tampa and Jacksonville, intra-Florida Amtrak ridership (which is large) will fall off to near-zero. NEC-Miami and NEC-Tampa service would also drop off significantly. I expect NEC-Orlando traffic would survive, but given that ridership in Georgia/South Carolina/North Carolina is anemic, the financial performance of the Silver Service will crater.
> 
> If Amtrak had any sense, it would be upgrading the Lake Shore Limited, for which there is no competition coming any time soon. But Amtrak's current CEO is an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps eventually, but i don't see this being a problem for a while (years). Right now changing to Brightline at WPB makes no sense except for the novelty. Even when the extension is complete, you'd have to get from downtown Orlando to the airport to ride - might as well stay in your seat/room, at least on the Meteor.
> 
> I agree that providing a flagship New York-Chicago service makes sense. Maybe Ed Ellis should stick a couple of cars on there...
> 
> 
> 
> (duck & cover)
Click to expand...

Given the current financial state of Ed Ellis' empire, I wouldn't count on that.


----------



## jis

Yeah. As far as I can tell Ed Ellis may be keeping busy trying to sell cars to pay off tax liabilities and such.


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> On a smaller scale- Tri-Rail's numbers for the first 4 months of 2018 (BL was running between WPB to FTL at this point) are higher than '17. I would say Brightline had zero effect on Tri-Rail ridership, so far.


I feel like Tri-Rail is completely different than Brightline. Tri-Rail is a cheap, relatively slow, commuter service with plenty of intermediate stops. Brightline is high end higher-speed rail that serves a puny four stops. I just can't say that they're at all comparable. Brightline and Amtrak, however...


----------



## me_little_me

chrsjrcj said:


> Price will be a big factor too. I can pay $34 to ride the SM from WPB to Orlando tomorrow. I am sure Brightline will exceed that.


On the other hand, is it worth the $34 compared to Brightline's probably higher price to go in the other direction when the arrival of the SM could mean a wait of many hours? Even northbound, we waited for an hour and a half for it from Ft. Lauderdale last fall to go to Savannah. I'd be hesitant to take Amtrak on any intra-Florida trip unless I could go from home to a station at the last minute so my wait would only be 15 minutes instead of hours. Even then, if you are going for the day and the train is 3 hours late...


----------



## jis

Reading Brightline's analysis on which their business plan is based, I don't think they will even notice if not even a single current Amtrak passenger moves to Brightline. Frankly, they are not after the Orlando - Southeast Florida demographic that rides Amtrak today at all. So they will be perfectly happy to let you continue tot ravel by Amtrak if that suites you. Their success or failure is quite independent of Amtrak's service.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

neroden said:


> If Brightline reaches Tampa and Jacksonville, intra-Florida Amtrak ridership (which is large) will fall off to near-zero. NEC-Miami and NEC-Tampa service would also drop off significantly. I expect NEC-Orlando traffic would survive, but given that ridership in Georgia/South Carolina/North Carolina is anemic, the financial performance of the Silver Service will crater.
> 
> If Amtrak had any sense, it would be upgrading the Lake Shore Limited, for which there is no competition coming any time soon. But Amtrak's current CEO is an idiot.


Pretty sure Brightline won't impact Amtrak at all. I'm optimistic they will raise the overall profile of rail travel as an option for Floridians who will discover Amtrak can take them to many more places, at far cheaper fares, than Brightline will ever offer.



neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> We can make all the arguments we want here over and over and over again. It will not change a thing though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Politicians can make a point over and over and over, as long as they don't bring money to the table, or arrange some other attractive quid pro quo, nothing is going to change.
> 
> If everyone who claims Amtrak should be run as a business ( and I have not come across too many politicians who don't) is serious about it, the basic computation here would be "Does extending service cover the cost of doing so from added revenue. At least Boardman's regime claimed it would not. I doubt that Anderson's will think differently. Unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is that extending service to an intermodal station covers the cost of doing so from added revenue. If Boardman's and Anderson's idiot staffers think otherwise, they are flatly wrong. There's plenty of evidence for the ridership and revenue increases from this sort of connection, and they're *large*. Increasing Miami revenue by 20%, which is the likely number, is not something to throw away for the operational convenience of lazy Amtrak employees.
Click to expand...

Who has ever said we don't serve the Miami Airport out of operational convenience?

Would you kindly provide the data you have used to determine what the added costs and revenue estimates will be? I assume you have current copies of all work agreements and pay scales, plus the station rental contract and railroad use contracts with FDOT. I'm sure you've also figured out the timing of moves between Tri-Rail's morning and evening rush hours to understand when the deadheads would be able to move between the MIC and Hialeah Yard (keeping in mind this has a big effect on wage cost). You must also have a statistical ridership model using the latest GIS dataset to estimate the revenue increase. Kindly Private Message me your data sources along with bottom line cost and revenue numbers and I'll pass them right along. Surely we'll be running to the MIC within a few weeks of your information setting Amtrak straight.



neroden said:


> frequentflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> After looking at the map, the only MIA airport station works for Amtrak is if they move their yard closer. There is no way or place to bring the yard closer unless you buy out some warehouses River Drive. And as JIS stated, unless someone brings alot of money (politicians love "job making programs") the move south is not ( or ain't) happening.
> 
> I was like many here was wandering why Amtrak would not want to move into a new facility. After researching it, its plain to see that someone forgot to ask the operations people.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you TELL the operations people, you don't ask them. If you ask them, they'll be idiots and propose revenue-destroying policies, as we are discovering.
> 
> Well, perhaps it's all for the best anyway. Brightline is going to destroy Amtrak's Miami business pretty effectively. Arguably Amtrak should bite the bullet and relocate Hialeah shops to a more sensible location, like Pennsylvania. The Silver Service can reverse at Orlando, since nobody will be taking them south of Orlando in a few years.
Click to expand...

So someone sitting at 1 Mass has a better understanding of all the operating intricacies/costs involved with this station relocation and would be better equipped to determine the costs and movement requirements than the actual on-the-ground operating people who will have to make this work every day? If the operations people were told to go, we'd go. It's been discussed at the operating people level many, many, many times. We've had people qualified down there because the operations people were told to get ready only to have a deal fall through again.

Do you actually believe everything that spews from your keyboard, neroden? Move Hialeah to Pennsylvania? Brightline kill everything south of Orlando? How are people going to get from Amtrak to Brightline and vice versa? Passengers traveling to anywhere other than West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale or Downtown Miami won't be able to take Brightline assuming they even want to make the 30-45 minute drive between Orlando Amtrak and the Orlando airport.

What about passengers traveling to Kissimmee, Lakeland, Tampa, Winter Haven, Sebring, Okeechobee, Delray Beach, Deerfield Beach, Hollywood and Miami/Hialeah? What option do they have on Brightline?

Have you even ridden Brightline? Brightline and Amtrak might as well be on two different planets. Yes, I wish our equipment and time keeping was more on Brightline's planet, but demographics are completely different. Brightline is creating a NEW market. They aren't going to cannibalize Amtrak or Tri-Rail. They're going after existing highway users and eventually those who currently fly or drive between Orlando and South Florida. I think they might actually raise the profile of rail as an option in Florida and help more Floridians find that Amtrak can take them more places at cheaper fares than Brightline.


----------



## jis

Actually I don't for a moment believe Brightline will kill everything south of Orlando after 2021. There will be a significant fare differential, and Brightline is not even targeting the demographics of the Amtrak Coach passenger, since I believe Brightline Smart fare will be higher than Amtrak Coach fare, carrying a premium for speed and convenience. Just like Acelas do not kill off all NER ridership Brightline will not kill off all Amtrak ridership. Even Brightline's own ridership and market share analysis does not suggest so.


----------



## chrsjrcj

As far as Amtrak actually serving the MIC- one of the operational constraints is the single track between Hialeah Market and the MIC. That should be resolved with a new double track fixed span over the Miami River.


----------



## west point

IMHO the cheapest solution and operationally would be for FL DOT to buy the one business west of the bridge that uses the canal. Close the canal (Miami river ) to navigation west of the bridges. Then the second bridge could be built parallel to the present one and the track remain at grade level. 36th street, other streets, metro rail, and the CSX freight turnout all present very expensive solutions that might require a bridge costing as much as $1.0B to span the roads and provide CSX with a useable grade ? That one business would not cost more than $20M


----------



## bretton88

west point said:


> IMHO the cheapest solution and operationally would be for FL DOT to buy the one business west of the bridge that uses the canal. Close the canal (Miami river ) to navigation west of the bridges. Then the second bridge could be built parallel to the present one and the track remain at grade level. 36th street, other streets, metro rail, and the CSX freight turnout all present very expensive solutions that might require a bridge costing as much as $1.0B to span the roads and provide CSX with a useable grade ? That one business would not cost more than $20M


In the presentation, the project costs 44.2 million for the most expensive option, not 1 billion.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thank you (AmtrakLKL) for that nice long detail statement.

However Amtrak at first declined to use the Airport station. So the station was push back north with smaller platforms for Tri-Rail.

Then Amtrak states it would use the station. The short platform became a problem. FDoT then build a bridge. So Amtrak could fit the Slivers into the station.

Now what the issue that is preventing Amtrak from using the Airport station?

Too much of a hassle?

Extra cost?

Use the station or dont use the station. Pick one Amtrak.

Stop making excuses, and or demands. Just pick a plan and stick to it. This is why people are having a cow.

Surprised Florida has not yet taken Amtrak to court.


----------



## jis

There is no bridge that was built.

The platform is still too short and a full length Meteor still does not fit the platform.

Looks like Amtrak has pretty much decided not to move AFAICT. Maybe Thirdrail knows more about the inside skinny.

I was privately informed that Amtrak is not going to move, about four years back now, and so far that has proved to be true.

People do not need reasons to have cows sometimes. They just like cows. [emoji57]


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thank you (AmtrakLKL) for that nice long detail statement.
> 
> However Amtrak at first declined to use the Airport station. So the station was push back north with smaller platforms for Tri-Rail.
> 
> Then Amtrak states it would use the station. The short platform became a problem. FDoT then build a bridge. So Amtrak could fit the Slivers into the station.
> 
> Now what the issue that is preventing Amtrak from using the Airport station?
> Too much of a hassle?
> Extra cost?
> 
> Use the station or dont use the station. Pick one Amtrak.
> Stop making excuses, and or demands. Just pick a plan and stick to it. This is why people are having a cow.
> 
> Surprised Florida has not yet taken Amtrak to court.


I believe cost is the main issue. If it was a bottom-line positive move we'd already be down there. Anything that increases Amtrak's cash-loss isn't going to happen. If you could plan some service change that resulted in a 100% increase in riders/revenue, but bottom-line cost went up 10%, even though the overall efficiency/metrics are much better, Amtrak won't make the change.



jis said:


> There is no bridge that was built.
> 
> The platform is still too short and a full length Meteor still does not fit the platform.
> 
> Looks like Amtrak has pretty much decided not to move AFAICT. Maybe Thirdrail knows more about the inside skinny.
> 
> I was privately informed that Amtrak is not going to move, about four years back now, and so far that has proved to be true.
> 
> People do not need reasons to have cows sometimes. They just like cows. [emoji57]


The platform is long enough for the standard Silver Meteor consist of two engines, four coaches, lounge, diner, three sleepers and baggage car (~990 feet). That will just fit on the 1,000 ft platform. The issue is when a fifth coach and sometimes fourth sleeper are added during peak holiday weeks. Even then all the passenger car vestibules would be on the platform with just the engines blocking the crossing, but with the bypass road now open the blocked crossing issue is now moot.

TLDR; Platform wise, Amtrak could go to the airport. Everything else-wise, Amtrak is not going to the airport.


----------



## neroden

Yet again, Amtrak management proves that it doesn't like revenue or ridership.

AmtrakLKL makes the typical sort of claims you'd expect from operations -- focused on costs. Worth ignoring.

I *do* have ridership and revenue models. Amtrak is notoriously poor with its own internal revenue models, probably because they have too many parameters -- it is known that for ridership/revenue modelling, simpler models with fewer parameters tend to work better.

There are some reliable rules of thumb for the value of intermodal connections. Feel free to look them up yourself and use them.

I'll just give one simple anecdote: if Amtrak were going to the intermodal station, I'd take Amtrak from Syracuse to Miami this year for a convention. Since it's going to the car-dependent Hialeah station, I'm not taking the trip at all. I'm a price-insensitive customer. :shrug: Amtrak doesn't like ridership, and it doesn't like revenue.


----------



## Palmetto

Just a quick question, Nathanael: If flying to Fort Lauderdale were cheaper than flying to Miami, would you insist on flying to Miami, even though Fort Lauderdale is cheaper?

When Tr-Rail begins operating to the Brightline station in downtown, your argument would seem to pale, if I understand you correctly. It would be a simple matter of changing trains at Hollywood. Am I missing something?


----------



## frequentflyer

AmtrakLKL said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you (AmtrakLKL) for that nice long detail statement.
> 
> However Amtrak at first declined to use the Airport station. So the station was push back north with smaller platforms for Tri-Rail.
> 
> Then Amtrak states it would use the station. The short platform became a problem. FDoT then build a bridge. So Amtrak could fit the Slivers into the station.
> 
> Now what the issue that is preventing Amtrak from using the Airport station?
> 
> Too much of a hassle?
> 
> Extra cost?
> 
> Use the station or dont use the station. Pick one Amtrak.
> 
> Stop making excuses, and or demands. Just pick a plan and stick to it. This is why people are having a cow.
> 
> Surprised Florida has not yet taken Amtrak to court.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe cost is the main issue. If it was a bottom-line positive move we'd already be down there. Anything that increases Amtrak's cash-loss isn't going to happen. If you could plan some service change that resulted in a 100% increase in riders/revenue, but bottom-line cost went up 10%, even though the overall efficiency/metrics are much better, Amtrak won't make the change.
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no bridge that was built.
> 
> The platform is still too short and a full length Meteor still does not fit the platform.
> 
> Looks like Amtrak has pretty much decided not to move AFAICT. Maybe Thirdrail knows more about the inside skinny.
> 
> I was privately informed that Amtrak is not going to move, about four years back now, and so far that has proved to be true.
> 
> People do not need reasons to have cows sometimes. They just like cows. [emoji57]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The platform is long enough for the standard Silver Meteor consist of two engines, four coaches, lounge, diner, three sleepers and baggage car (~990 feet). That will just fit on the 1,000 ft platform. The issue is when a fifth coach and sometimes fourth sleeper are added during peak holiday weeks. Even then all the passenger car vestibules would be on the platform with just the engines blocking the crossing, but with the bypass road now open the blocked crossing issue is now moot.
> 
> TLDR; Platform wise, Amtrak could go to the airport. Everything else-wise, Amtrak is not going to the airport.
Click to expand...

Even with the platform issue figured out the station is too far from the yard. And Amtrak is not going to spend big money builidng a new one near by (not like there is room for one anyway.)


----------



## daybeers

Is there any hope of Amtrak moving to MIC in 2019...or anytime for that matter? :unsure:


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

No, moving to MIC would increase cost. So it will not happen.  Current leadership is all about cutting expenses, not about growth.


----------



## cirdan

AmtrakLKL said:


> The platform is long enough for the standard Silver Meteor consist of two engines, four coaches, lounge, diner, three sleepers and baggage car (~990 feet). That will just fit on the 1,000 ft platform. The issue is when a fifth coach and sometimes fourth sleeper are added during peak holiday weeks. Even then all the passenger car vestibules would be on the platform with just the engines blocking the crossing, but with the bypass road now open the blocked crossing issue is now moot.


The engines would be on the crossing when the train is ready to depart, northbound.

But when the train has just arrived, southbound, surely the engines are at the south end, and the vehicles on the crossing will be passenger cars.


----------



## jis

At the rate Amtrak is going, soon these trains will be five car trains and platform length will become a non-issue


----------



## daybeers

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> No, moving to MIC would increase cost. So it will not happen.  Current leadership is all about cutting expenses, not about growth.


It would most likely increase revenue though, so it would be a net profit, but oh well.


----------



## tricia

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> No, moving to MIC would increase cost. So it will not happen.  Current leadership is all about cutting expenses, not about growth.





daybeers said:


> It would most likely increase revenue though, so it would be a net profit, but oh well.





jis said:


> At the rate Amtrak is going, soon these trains will be five car trains and platform length will become a non-issue


How cynical we've become! Justified given the trajectory of recent changes, but sad nonetheless.  

Wouldn't it be nice to have more things to be happy about when we think about Amtrak's current conditions? Sigh.

Personally, I'm hoping my roundtrip on the Crescent over the next week won't be too bad.  :unsure:


----------



## cpotisch

I thought they gave up altogether on the move to MIC? It’s still actually in the works?


----------



## chrsjrcj

cirdan said:


> The engines would be on the crossing when the train is ready to depart, northbound.
> 
> But when the train has just arrived, southbound, surely the engines are at the south end, and the vehicles on the crossing will be passenger cars.




There is a wye just north of the station (where the CSX line continues south around the airport and to Homestead). They would have to rebuild the southern leg of the wye though. 

In other news, Tri-Rail/FDOT appear to be moving forward with the plan to add a second track over the Miami River (err...canal) just north of the station. That capacity constraint is one less excuse Amtrak will have for not moving to the new station.


----------



## blueman271

chrsjrcj said:


> There is a wye just north of the station (where the CSX line continues south around the airport and to Homestead). They would have to rebuild the southern leg of the wye though.
> 
> In other news, Tri-Rail/FDOT appear to be moving forward with the plan to add a second track over the Miami River (err...canal) just north of the station. That capacity constraint is one less excuse Amtrak will have for not moving to the new station.


I don’t think track capacity was ever really an excuse Amtrak used. Regardless once Tri-Rail starts running half their trains to MiamiCentral track capacity will be an even bigger non-issue.


----------



## jis

In almost any other country they would have shut down the 25th St crossing, and built a major crossing on the 28th St. and had all 25th St traffic take that jog, and they would have built a platform to accommodate 15 cars. But in a place that has a department of Transportation, which is a misnomer. Apparently someone spelled Department of Highways wrong. They can barely handle trains let alone figure out what to do with them, and with an inattentive Amtrak to go with it, we have what we have.


----------



## west point

That second bridge over the Miami river is a real puzzle..  A bit of history.  In the late 1950s the Miami river was navigable  through Miami Sprigs, Doral, Hialeah Gardens to what is now the Miami canal.  A least 6 Drawbridges of different designs crossed the river including the  then SAL rail line near MIA airport.   Circa 1950s to prevent the everglades  draining too low a series of retention dams were built around the everglades to raise the water some 3 - 4 feet in the everglades .  Including one about 300 feet NW of the SAL draw bridge with a lock.  Then Navigation was discontinued except for boats that would clear all inoperative draw bridges except for the SAL bridge.  New regular bridges have been built that now span the river ( canal ? ) west of the dam including  LA June Rd. There is one ( was?)  business  west of the SAL draw bridge and east of the retention dam somehow associated with the airport.  So for about once or twice a week the now TriRail draw bridge is raised. 

Now the desire and need for a second bridge is needed.  IMO it would be cheaper to buy out the business just west of the draw than build a second draw.  There are many water related business just east of the RR draw.  A ballast deck bridge could be traveled much faster especially the CSX freights that take the NW leg of the wye past the airport.   Coast guard and corps of engineers may have to approve,  Note the business may be already closed but someone will have to let us know.


----------



## chrsjrcj

blueman271 said:


> I don’t think track capacity was ever really an excuse Amtrak used. Regardless once Tri-Rail starts running half their trains to MiamiCentral track capacity will be an even bigger non-issue.


Tri-Rail will still operate a shuttle train between 79th Street and MIA for the 24 trains that don't continue to the Airport. They are required to operate 48 weekday trains a day on the corridor, part of the deal when the Feds contributed to the double tracking project +15 years ago. Of course, considering the current administration, they might not care anymore. 

Regarding the new Miami River (canal) bridge, according to this powerpoint presentation the one marina to the west of the bridge is now vacant. The project also includes a completing a missing link of double track between just north of the Hialeah Market station and the Miami Airport station.


----------



## frequentflyer

It's a 3.5 mile back  track from the station near the airport to Amtrak's  yard through many crossings. Just don't see Amtrak doing that.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Miami,+FL/@25.8236051,-80.2592971,7037m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88d9b0a20ec8c111:0xff96f271ddad4f65!8m2!3d25.7616798!4d-80.1917902

How busy is 25th st.?


----------



## JRR

The news that a shuttle will be operated for the 24 trains which do not go to MIA is not good for those f us who take Tri Rail to the air port. The shuttle, as it operated in the past caused a big delay which is not good when you are trying to get to the train. I see no need for Tri Rsil to go to the station BrightLine used.

I consider this development going backwards.


----------



## west point

frequentflyer said:


> It's a 3.5 mile back  track from the station near the airport to Amtrak's  yard through many crossings. Just don't see Amtrak doing that.
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Miami,+FL/@25.8236051,-80.2592971,7037m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88d9b0a20ec8c111:0xff96f271ddad4f65!8m2!3d25.7616798!4d-80.1917902
> 
> How busy is 25th st.?


SAL did a back track further .  Their station was near  downtown ( maybe 8th st ) .  Their trains blocked several roads as well  and it was double track to station to enable simultaneously moving trains and ferry.  Then when the FEC strike caused ACL to use SAL into MIA it got very busy!


----------



## chrsjrcj

JRR said:


> The news that a shuttle will be operated for the 24 trains which do not go to MIA is not good for those f us who take Tri Rail to the air port. The shuttle, as it operated in the past caused a big delay which is not good when you are trying to get to the train. I see no need for Tri Rsil to go to the station BrightLine used.
> 
> I consider this development going backwards.


To clarify, the shuttle is a train. I can still see how it will be a bit of a pain when you have to get off one train with all your luggage, get on another train, just to get back off 10 minutes later.


----------



## JRR

chrsjrcj said:


> To clarify, the shuttle is a train. I can still see how it will be a bit of a pain when you have to get off one train with all your luggage, get on another train, just to get back off 10 minutes later.


I was not aware that the shuttle is to be s train. Previously it was a bus which ran once an hour.


----------



## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> To clarify, the shuttle is a train. I can still see how it will be a bit of a pain when you have to get off one train with all your luggage, get on another train, just to get back off 10 minutes later.


Would it not be easier to wait for the MIC train and take the train that directly to MIC?

Ideally Tri-Rail should run a short turn service from somewhere like Fort Lauderdale to MIC every hour and another hourly from WPB to MiamiCentral that passes through FLL half hour past when the short turn leaves FLL. But we have a little ways to go until that happens probably.


----------



## cpotisch

There's no way Amtrak could ever serve MiamiCentral, right?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> There's no way Amtrak could ever serve MiamiCentral, right?


If Amtrak is having conniption about backing a consist on a straight track from MIC to Hialeah, I would imagine they would completely apoplectic faced with the possibility of backing out of MC to Hialeah.

Fortunately they may actually able to back out and use the other leg of the Wye to then move forward to Hialeah. But it is a long long way from MC to Hialeah, either way.

But the issue of platform length, or lack thereof may arise if their trains grow much longer than 9-10 cars, specially for arriving trains with two diesels occupying platform space at the bumper end.

There is absolutely no facility accounted for at MC for providing requisite passenger services for Amtrak LD trains independent of Brightline. In short right now there is no plan whatsoever for handling Amtrak at MC. Even those that are talking of Amtrak on FEC currently visualize Amtrak switching over to Tri-Rail tracks a little north of WPB.


----------



## neroden

Silver Service trains are too long for MC, and platforms at MC can't be lengthened (the ramp starts soon after the platform end, and the other end is practically running into buildings).  The end.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Silver Service trains are too long for MC, and platforms at MC can't be lengthened (the ramp starts soon after the platform end, and the other end is practically running into buildings).  The end.


They are actually designed for standard length 12 cars since Brightline plans to run 10 car + two power head trains into their platforms. I am not sure whether the Tri-Rail platforms are shorter or not.

But then, if Amtrak has its way, the Silver trains would just be 8 cars or shorter, no? :unsure:


----------



## cocojacoby

But Amtrak is really missing the boat by not operating something down the FEC.  That's where the population is . . . not via Sebring.


----------



## neroden

Amtrak seems remarkably unwilling to work on minor reroutes.  It's an odd thing.


----------



## RebelRider

neroden said:


> Amtrak seems remarkably unwilling to work on minor reroutes.  It's an odd thing.


1) Host railroads are often remarkably unwilling to entertain even minor adjustments to timetables, much less minor reroutes.

2) Switching to FEC or going to Miami Central is not a "minor" reroute.


----------



## lordsigma

Amtrak just put out a bid for some improvements at the current Miami station. While not major work, that still does not bode well for any possible relocation to one of the other stations.


----------



## neroden

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak just put out a bid for some improvements at the current Miami station. While not major work, that still does not bode well for any possible relocation to one of the other stations.



What a bunch of dopes.


----------



## jis

RebelRider said:


> 1) Host railroads are often remarkably unwilling to entertain even minor adjustments to timetables, much less minor reroutes.
> 
> 2) Switching to FEC or going to Miami Central is not a "minor" reroute.



Suffice it to say that Amtrak will also have to create a small sub fleet of FEC e-ATC PTC equipped engines to operate anywhere on the FEC. 

I very much doubt that TriRail would cede any space at its platforms at Miami Central to anyone else given their evolving operating plans, specially for the sort of windows an LD train that has to back in or back out will require. So I don’t see how Amtrak will ever get to Miami Central. The VTUSA platforms are already fully spoken for too with possible coastal commuter service in the works. 

Amtrak switching to FEC would mostly involve running from JAX to the WPB crossover, if it happens at all.


----------



## basketmaker

cocojacoby said:


> But Amtrak is really missing the boat by not operating something down the FEC. That's where the population is . . . not via Sebring.


Don't tell my family that. They do Hollywood-Sebring a couple of times a month!


----------



## jis

Apparently FDOT will have something to say about the Miami Intermodal Center train station and Amtrak soon...









Update Coming On Amtrak To Miami Intermodal Center Later This Month


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## blueman271

jis said:


> Apparently FDOT will have something to say about the Miami Intermodal Center train station and Amtrak soon...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update Coming On Amtrak To Miami Intermodal Center Later This Month
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com


It wouldn’t surprise me if the update was something along the lines of “Amtrak is never moving in here and we are leasing their space to Tri-Rail for a waiting area.”


----------



## lordsigma

I’m guessing it’s “good news” if they’re posting it this way.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I’m guessing it’s “good news” if they’re posting it this way.



Agreed. It would be odd to “announce an update” and then the update be “this isn’t going to work, we tried.”


----------



## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> Agreed. It would be odd to “announce an update” and then the update be “this isn’t going to work, we tried.”


Read the tweet, which is linked in the news article. FDOT didn't publicly announce that they had something to say. They're just responding to a request for a status update from the Citizens' Independent Transportation Trust (whoever that is.)

FDOT scheduled a briefing to the group, somebody tweeted asking the group if they knew anything, the group tweeted back that they had an update scheduled, and then the unrelated website picked up the tweet and published it.


----------



## blueman271

lordsigma said:


> I’m guessing it’s “good news” if they’re posting it this way.


In a well run county in a well run state it probably would be good news. But Miami-Dade and Florida are the antithesis of well run.


----------



## west point

Let us see A current silver star #92 = 1140 feet. Try fitting a #91has 5 coaches, 4 sleepers diner, lounge and probably a baggage. At 85 feet per car that will be what? 1020 feet + 2 locos in front. Now if 91 came in there what in the world would passengers in the rear do? Walk thru 8 cars to get off?


----------



## jis

Here is what the plan is for FDOT/Amtrak collaboration going forward:


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Here is what the plan is for FDOT/Amtrak collaboration going forward:



I wouldn't have accepted the lease either, with a landlord option to terminate any time after 5 years. What would Amtrak do then if they'd demolished their current station, or even left it standing but deteriorating for 5 years?


----------



## west point

JIS: It has been too long. Was the Amtrak platforms to be at ground level? That is the way I remember.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> JIS: It has been too long. Was the Amtrak platforms to be at ground level? That is the way I remember.


Of course the tracks and platforms are at ground level and not on any elevated structure. 

As for the platform height, I thought the platform was built at the same height as the Tri-Rail platform, which is certainly several inches above rail head. But I have not been there nor read much about it in quite a while. So don't know for sure. I am sure we will ask Amtrak about it at the upcoming RPA Council Meeting in Alexandria.


----------



## blueman271

west point said:


> JIS: It has been too long. Was the Amtrak platforms to be at ground level? That is the way I remember.


Amtrak‘s platform is both a low level platform and at ground level. The only elevated platforms are for Metrorail and the MIA Mover.


----------



## west point

Thanks guys that is my spotty memory as well. But---------spotty is better than none.


----------



## cocojacoby




----------



## joelkfla

cocojacoby said:


>



How did they turn around? I can't find a wye on Google aerial view.

That train had 4 coaches + 3 sleepers, plus the usual other stuff. Is that the longest that can platform?


----------



## blueman271

joelkfla said:


> How did they turn around? I can't find a wye on Google aerial view.
> 
> That train had 4 coaches + 3 sleepers, plus the usual other stuff. Is that the longest that can platform?


I believe there is a wye. I think the northern leg is visible in the first part of the video, it is the track branching off of the main line just after the bridge.


----------



## cocojacoby

No. That video was perplexing to say the least. After some investigating I found out that there were two test runs. The first was southbound engine first. It reversed to Hialeah where it was looped and then a second run was made tail first all the way south to the airport. That then returned north engine first.

The wye has been severed by construction of the 28th Street crossing which seems like a shortsighted move. So the wye can not be used anymore.

I think the more interesting question is why was there all of the criticism of the designers when it was made public that the station was built too short for Amtrak trains. Obviously a typical full-size Silver Meteor can fit. That false debacle led to the necessity of building the 28th Street crossing which was expensive and constructed in such a way that the wye was unnecessarily severed.


----------



## blueman271

cocojacoby said:


> No. That video was perplexing to say the least. After some investigating I found out that there were two test runs. The first was southbound engine first. It reversed to Hialeah where it was looped and then a second run was made tail first all the way south to the airport. That then returned north engine first.
> 
> The wye has been severed by construction of the 28th Street crossing which seems like a shortsighted move. So the wye can not be used anymore.
> 
> I think the more interesting question is why was there all of the criticism of the designers when it was made public that the station was built too short for Amtrak trains. Obviously a typical full-size Silver Meteor can fit. That false debacle led to the necessity of building the 28th Street crossing which was expensive and constructed in such a way that the wye was unnecessarily severed.View attachment 27394
> View attachment 27395


Hadn’t seen those pictures. Thanks for the update.


----------



## jis

blueman271 said:


> I believe there is a wye. I think the northern leg is visible in the first part of the video, it is the track branching off of the main line just after the bridge.


The Northern leg is the connector to the CSX Homestead Secondary.


----------



## lordsigma

This 4 mile backup move - while probably a bit of a pain - still doesn't take the cake for the most inconvenient equipment positioning move. See the Valley Flyer in Massachusetts - 40 mile deadhead positioning move for each frequency. Four times a day on weekdays.  Does anyone know of any longer ones?


----------



## Scott Orlando

That wye - the connection to the north side of MIA , doesnt seem like it would be that difficult to rebuild. I mean if Brightline can build 40+ miles of Class 7 in 2 years …..


----------



## Cal




----------



## west point

It really is upsetting that Amtrak keeps going along with 8 - 10 cars LD trains. Just look at the Silver Star during the Meteor cutback. That attitude is what makes it harder for the LD trains to approach break even operating costs. Any station lease should have provision that Amtrak can operate a train 19 cars + locos to the station. Now it may be that is the proposal at the airport station?


----------



## joelkfla

cocojacoby said:


> I think the more interesting question is why was there all of the criticism of the designers when it was made public that the station was built too short for Amtrak trains. Obviously a typical full-size Silver Meteor can fit. That false debacle led to the necessity of building the 28th Street crossing which was expensive and constructed in such a way that the wye was unnecessarily severed.


The current combined Star is 2 cars longer: 4 coaches + 5 sleepers (it was 5+5 for a while). If that test train filled the entire platform, the only way they could get the current consist to platform would be to move the baggage car to behind the engine, and let it and the engine block the crossing. I don't know what the longest Star or Meteor consist has been during normal peak times.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The south leg of the wye wouldn’t even be accessible from the Amtrak tracks at the station.

I guess Amtrak would be locking themselves into a maximum train length just to accommodate 1 platform. Pre-Covid I was on a Silver Meteor with 12 cars (5 coaches and 4 sleepers). Assuming the train pulls in coming from NY, not having platform access for the last sleeper could be an ADA issue?


----------



## cocojacoby

chrsjrcj said:


> The south leg of the wye wouldn’t even be accessible from the Amtrak tracks at the station.



Absolutely no big deal having Amtrak use Tracks 1 or 2. You just have to move a few signs around or don't designate the tracks at all (i.e., just use numbers and not TriRail/Amtrak exclusivity). People should have no problem finding their train in a small four track station.


----------



## joelkfla

chrsjrcj said:


> The south leg of the wye wouldn’t even be accessible from the Amtrak tracks at the station.
> 
> I guess Amtrak would be locking themselves into a maximum train length just to accommodate 1 platform. Pre-Covid I was on a Silver Meteor with 12 cars (5 coaches and 4 sleepers). Assuming the train pulls in coming from NY, not having platform access for the last sleeper could be an ADA issue?


Do they potentially have 2 tracks or 1? If they have 2, they could split the train as they do the Auto Train IF they back in. Or they could put the baggage car at the front, and unload/load baggage in the crossing or on the opposite side of the crossing.

Southbound trains would either need to find a wye north of the station, or have an extra engine and crew handy to split the train from the rear.

Don't know whether any of that is feasible. It would obviously involve extra cost, and delay passengers.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Could they just not sell tickets on any cars that are beyond the platform? For example, with the current SS consist that is 2 cars too long, they could just not sell space into Miami for the last sleeper (since the other car would be the baggage car). Given that the train is discharge only south of Okeechobee, it is unlikely to be more than half full into Miami even if it is sold out further north, so doing so wouldn't even have a significant impact on capacity. In terms of the reservation system, they could treat it just like the 321/322 coach from Chicago-St. Louis by only selling space New York-Hollywood, except in this case it wouldn't actually be removed.


----------



## frequentflyer

I looking at Google Maps, where is the wye everyone is talking about?


----------



## frequentflyer

The new station would be in a better neighborhood and be closer to the cruise terminals.


----------



## cocojacoby

frequentflyer said:


> I looking at Google Maps, where is the wye everyone is talking about?



Could it be any better located?


----------



## MARC Rider

frequentflyer said:


> The new station would be in a better neighborhood and be closer to the cruise terminals.


The new station would be located in the same building as the airport's rental car center. 
Currently, you can access this station by getting off the Meteor or the Star at Hollywood and riding a Tr-Rail train into Miami Intermodal (or Airport) station. Not sure when the last Tri-Rail train runs in the evening if the Meteor is late, and when we rode down in November, the Hollywood station sure looked dark and uninviting.


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> The new station would be located in the same building as the airport's rental car center.
> Currently, you can access this station by getting off the Meteor or the Star at Hollywood and riding a Tr-Rail train into Miami Intermodal (or Airport) station. Not sure when the last Tri-Rail train runs in the evening if the Meteor is late, and when we rode down in November, the Hollywood station sure looked dark and uninviting.


You don’t have to change at Hollywood. You could change at any Amtrak stop between WPB and Hollywood.


----------



## lordsigma

This looks like it could be a great benefit with both the rental car facility and MetroRail connections there.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> This looks like it could be a great benefit with both the rental car facility and MetroRail connections there.


That was the whole idea the clusterflub intervened.


----------



## frequentflyer

cocojacoby said:


> Could it be any better located?
> 
> View attachment 27403


Thank you, so the south leg does not exist, that is why I could not find it. Why would Amtrak want to turn the train there and block the busy hwy 953?
Why is Amtrak acting on this now? Is the present Hialeah station falling apart? The area surrounding the old station has been sketchy for years, so what changed now?


----------



## jis

frequentflyer said:


> Thank you, so the south leg does not exist, that is why I could not find it. Why would Amtrak want to turn the train there and block the busy hwy 953?
> Why is Amtrak acting on this now? Is the present Hialeah station falling apart? The area surrounding the old station has been sketchy for years, so what changed now?


I have some speculation:

1. The old management at Amtrak that butted head with FLDOT is gone. so that history is less of a roadblock to talking to FLDOT.

2. FLDOT has become much more rail friendly since then and the FLDOT leadership is very different from what was there before, so that history is also less of a roadblock to re-engage.

3. From what I understand it is FLDOT that approached Amtrak asking what needs to be done to put the project back on track. This also might have something to do with FLDOT suddenly becoming more interested in talking to Amtrak in the context of ConnectUS and the proposed intra-Florida service in it.

So I think there are multiple factors that sort of came together to get them to start talking again. Of course what will come out of it is anybody's guess.

As for the Wye, I have not heard anyone outside of one or two in the raiflan community talk about it. It is CSX property anyway, which CSX will happily dump on anyone willing to take it, perhaps insisting that they must take the entire Homestead sub with it, if they wish to have it, while retaining trackage rights and requiring minimum guarantee of maintenance.

The reason that Amtrak ran the tests they did in the way they did is because the plan has always been to continue to use the Hialeah Yard for servicing and figure out an efficient way to get the empties to/from Hialeah Yard from/to the station. They were trying to figure out what would be the best way. They have never ever mentioned using any Wye near MIC.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> 3. From what I understand it is FLDOT that approached Amtrak asking what needs to be done to put the project back on track.



I watched the live stream of the meeting from last week - interestingly the lady from FLDOT that spoke at it stated it was actually Amtrak that approached the state - when she was asked what changed to make them come back she stated they *FDOT) do not know why they (Amtrak) are suddenly interested again. The way she described it Amtrak approached them somewhat out of nowhere late last year.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> I watched the live stream of the meeting from last week - interestingly the lady from FLDOT that spoke at it stated it was actually Amtrak that approached the state - when she was asked what changed to make them come back she stated they *FDOT) do not know why they (Amtrak) are suddenly interested again. The way she described it Amtrak approached them somewhat out of nowhere late last year.


So the change in Amtrak management is more complete break with the past than I had imagined. I know that Amtrak contacted FDOT regarding the ConnectUS stuff, but did not know that it involved MIA too. Good to know.

It is possible that someone in Federal DOT brought up the issue with Amtrak management causing to quickly refresh their collective memories, since like many things it is possible that they were not necessarily aware of it. Remember that the new bill makes it the Federal DOT's, and not Amtrak's responsibility to put together a plan for the LD network, since Amtrak has held a steadfast position that they are not allowed to add new LD trains without explicit request with funding from Congress, and therefore they will not even think about such, apparently


----------



## VentureForth

frequentflyer said:


> The new station would be in a better neighborhood and be closer to the cruise terminals.


I think you're thinking that the intermodal station is at the downtown Miami station used by Brightline? This one is at the airport - not close to the cruise terminals at all - around 8-10 miles away. But it's a shared station with Tri-Rail (Still won't get you to the cruise ships). In fact, there is no good way to get to the cruise ships by transit from the airport or any current or future Amtrak station. Every option would require at least a transfer to the Coral Way bus.

Since the Amtrak trainsets are all high-platform compatible, why wouldn't they have NEC-style high platforms at an all new station at the airport?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

VentureForth said:


> Since the Amtrak trainsets are all high-platform compatible, why wouldn't they have NEC-style high platforms at an all new station at the airport?



The airport station is joint use location. With the commuter train needing low level platforms. Will someone point out that is no sharing of platforms between the long distance night trains and the commuter trains, I would think so. In a form of a ADA lawsuit.


----------



## cocojacoby

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The airport station is joint use location. With the commuter train needing low level platforms. Will someone point out that is no sharing of platforms between the long distance night trains and the commuter trains, I would think so. In a form of a ADA lawsuit.



Just quick thinking on my part, but I believe there are no high-level platforms anywhere in Florida at any Amtrak station except the recently installed ones at Tampa.


----------



## VentureForth

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The airport station is joint use location. With the commuter train needing low level platforms. Will someone point out that is no sharing of platforms between the long distance night trains and the commuter trains, I would think so. In a form of a ADA lawsuit.


What is there to ADA? I think the current intent is for Amtrak to exclusively use one platform with two tracks, and Tri-Rail to use one platform with two tracks. If the intent is for them to truly share any available platform (it's sloppy), then I suppose the low level platforms are appropriate - except see below:



cocojacoby said:


> Just quick thinking on my part, but I believe there are no high-level platforms anywhere in Florida at any Amtrak station except the recently installed ones at Tampa.


I was under the impression that there was an intent that all new station and platform developments along the Silver routes were going to accommodate high level platforms.

With proper engineering, there could have been two islands that were low platform and a high side platform that could be used by Amtrak. That track could exit left for high (Amtrak) or exit right for low (Tri-Rail).


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## Just-Thinking-51

There is space for additional tracks and platforms, yes there parking there currently. The high level platforms is a requirement for new stations that why the Tampa rebuilt is high. Will they get away with using low level platforms? Time and ADA lawsuit will tell.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> There is space for additional tracks and platforms, yes there parking there currently. The high level platforms is a requirement for new stations that why the Tampa rebuilt is high. Will they get away with using low level platforms? Time and ADA lawsuit will tell.


I don't think they will have a problem since FDOT has always positioned it as a shared facility with TriRail and there will be alternatives as specified provided. But as you said time will tell.

The space for the third platform that is now occupied by a parking lot might indeed be a high platform if the rumors of Brightline serving MIC comes to fruition. But that requires somewhat expesive connector on the southeast quadrant at Iris.


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## west point

JIS: Is there just a connector on the NE quadrant of Iris. Has the bridge on TriRail over the Miami River been locked in place or does it still occasionally operate?


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## jis

west point said:


> JIS: Is there just a connector on the NE quadrant of Iris.


Yes


> Has the bridge on TriRail over the Miami River been locked in place or does it still occasionally operate?


I don't know.


----------



## jis

Here is another article with a video of the tests:

Video Shows Amtrak Train Fitting Into The Miami Intermodal Center In First Test Run 

The test was carried out with a 10 car + 2P42 consist. When the station was constructed the Meteor was actually a longer train. The current Super Star is a longer train. Those could be addressed by building out the platform four car lengths or so beyond the first grade crossing. Right now there is absolutely no way of handling a train longer than ten cars + 2 locos, and certainly nothing that is 13 cars long. That is possibly a problem, but there is a workable solution.


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## Just-Thinking-51

west point said:


> JIS: Is there just a connector on the NE quadrant of Iris. Has the bridge on TriRail over the Miami River been locked in place or does it still occasionally operate?



Per the second video that Jis link to the 100 year old bridge is scheduled for replacement with a two track fixed bridge. So no it does not operate.




jis said:


> Here is another article with a video of the tests:
> 
> Video Shows Amtrak Train Fitting Into The Miami Intermodal Center In First Test Run
> 
> The test was carried out with a 10 car + 2P42 consist. When the station was constructed the Meteor was actually a longer train. The current Super Star is a longer train. Those could be addressed by building out the platform four car lengths or so beyond the first grade crossing. Right now there is absolutely no way of handling a train longer than ten cars + 2 locos, and certainly nothing that is 13 cars long. That is possibly a problem, but there is a workable solution.



Or we can just keep running short trains. With the extra funds kicking around it would be nice to get something done. Length the platform. Rebuild it to a high level platform.
Extra frequency of sliver trains. Ever 8 hours (3 a day) or Ever 6 hours (4 a day).


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## jis

That is exactly my thought, though all this will have to wait until we lose the Super Star. Alternatively. it could be split into two in Hialeah and brought in as two trains too on those occasions when a train is longer than 11 cars. One can always frop one engine in Hialeah sice one engine can easily pull 11 cars.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Here is another article with a video of the tests:
> 
> Video Shows Amtrak Train Fitting Into The Miami Intermodal Center In First Test Run
> 
> The test was carried out with a 10 car + 2P42 consist. When the station was constructed the Meteor was actually a longer train. The current Super Star is a longer train. Those could be addressed by building out the platform four car lengths or so beyond the first grade crossing. Right now there is absolutely no way of handling a train longer than ten cars + 2 locos, and certainly nothing that is 13 cars long. That is possibly a problem, but there is a workable solution.


There are mini-high platforms at the north end of the platform. I don't know whether there's enough room to skooch the train up to spot the door of an 11th car there.

If you had an 11-car train, could they unload the baggage car in the crossing? But there's another problem: There's a ramp to the street between the 2 mini-high level platforms which may or not may not be wide enough for a towed baggage cart. If it is wide enough, on the satellite image it looks like they cleverly placed a lamppost a few feet from the top of the ramp.

A 4 car length platform starting from the far edge of the crossing would taper down to about 15 feet wide, because you're past the point where the tracks start to converge. I think 3 car lengths should be more than adequate, though, assuming the 11th car would be unloading in the crossing. They'd still have to modify the current platform to make it practical to run the baggage carts up from the street ... or maybe they could run them thru the parking lot.

BTW, I searched for all the YouTube run-bys I could find between 2010 & 2019, and I did not see any Meteors with more than 10 revenue cars including the baggage car. Not to say they definitely didn't exist, but nobody caught them on video. In the oldest videos, the baggage car was in the lead, followed by the sleepers and then the coaches; any idea why they switched it around?


----------



## joelkfla

Here's more footage of the event showing:

The distance from the front of the engine to the buffer stop
Perhaps the balloon loop @ Hialeah?
A backup move
A better, unobstructed view of the train leaving the station engine first


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## cocojacoby

joelkfla said:


> In the oldest videos, the baggage car was in the lead, followed by the sleepers and then the coaches; any idea why they switched it around?


Supposedly having the baggage car at the rear smooths out the ride in the sleepers. Any fishtailing occurs in the baggage car now.

P.S. I must add that there are plenty of places where Amtrak loads/unloads passengers in streets around stations where the platforms are too short.


----------



## jis

Since Amtrak's moving forward plan apparently is to keep trains short and make them progressively shorter, the problem of short platform at MIC is probably non-existent now.

In any case, upto 11 cars + two locos should be fine. It is the twelfth car in an arriving train that lands up with loading and off loading onto ballast. But once Super Star is done and over with, will we ever have a train that long anymore? The Meteor is not slated to get an additional Sleeper. It is the Star that is slated to get one, but it does have room for such within the 10 limit.

OTOH, I guess Meteor would get forever limited to 4/5 Coaches. On 5 Coach days the Baggage Car will have to be handled on the grade crossing.

Finally, it is probably better to add a few new trains than to lengthen the existing ones anyway, if we must take the route of limited train lengths.


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> Here's more footage of the event showing:
> 
> The distance from the front of the engine to the buffer stop
> Perhaps the balloon loop @ Hialeah?
> A backup move
> A better, unobstructed view of the train leaving the station engine first




So, if these were tests with 2 locos and 10 cars....

It's pretty clear they could back the train in, park the locomotives across the crossing, and add 2 more cars. 3 more if the people in the front car had to walk back to the second car to exit, which has been required at Syracuse NY (among other places).

It's unlikely that the Star or Meteor will exceed 13 cars any time soon. So that gets you to 13 cars.

Backing in means a longer travel time arriving in Miami southbound but a shorter time departing Miami northbound. So they'd *want* to back in heading northbound regardless. If they have a long southbound train, they may have to accept the extra time involved in backing in. This is tolerable.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

I said this before, but building a station for today’s length of trains is fine, but not have the space to lengthen the platform for tomorrow trains is foolish. Your just shooting yourself in the foot, by not thinking of your future needs. This limited length of terminal track will cause operational issues.

Any PV will need to be drop prior to the end terminal. Resulting in delays or just preventing them from been used on the Slivers at all.

At some point a train going to hit the block at the end of tracks. In Chicago you got space to stop and the actual space between the engine/first car varies between engineers. Here in Miami it much tighter tolerance.

Still wondering about the ADA lawsuit and how they going to deal with the high full access platform requirements.


----------



## cocojacoby

neroden said:


> So, if these were tests with 2 locos and 10 cars....
> 
> It's pretty clear they could back the train in, park the locomotives across the crossing, and add 2 more cars. 3 more if the people in the front car had to walk back to the second car to exit, which has been required at Syracuse NY (among other places).
> 
> It's unlikely that the Star or Meteor will exceed 13 cars any time soon. So that gets you to 13 cars.
> 
> Backing in means a longer travel time arriving in Miami southbound but a shorter time departing Miami northbound. So they'd *want* to back in heading northbound regardless. If they have a long southbound train, they may have to accept the extra time involved in backing in. This is tolerable.



No way to easily back a southbound in right now. You would have to do the loop in Hialeah and then slowly back four miles to MIA. Passengers might not consider that very "tolerable" adding lots of time to their arrival. The wye would need to be rebuilt to make backing in more practical and that is not in the cards at this time.

Blocking the crossing is no big deal since they have built an alternative route for the few times a day it might happen. If they really needed to, they could build more platform on the other side of the crossing.

Northbounds would always need to be backed from Hialeah but as a deadhead move.


----------



## neroden

cocojacoby said:


> No way to easily back a southbound in right now. You would have to do the loop in Hialeah and then slowly back four miles to MIA. Passengers might not consider that very "tolerable" adding lots of time to their arrival.


Measure the backing time in Tampa.



At least there are only 12 grade crossings on the Miami section as opposed to 17 grade crossings on the Tampa route, some without gates. Though yeah, for reversing in, it would be better to rebuild that wye.

But anyway they'd only have to do the reversing move if they managed to make a train with more than 11 cars southbound. At this point I would expect that that would be strictly a special-occasion thing. If once or twice a year they do it for Thanksgiving or a charter or whatever, I don't think it'll be a problem.

In the longer run, Miami and FDOT built the grade crossing at NW 28th St. While local panic prevented them from closing the grade crossing at NW 25th St, it's certainly possible to close it and lengthen the platforms in the future.


----------



## joelkfla

neroden said:


> So, if these were tests with 2 locos and 10 cars....
> 
> It's pretty clear they could back the train in, park the locomotives across the crossing, and add 2 more cars. 3 more if the people in the front car had to walk back to the second car to exit, which has been required at Syracuse NY (among other places).
> 
> It's unlikely that the Star or Meteor will exceed 13 cars any time soon. So that gets you to 13 cars.
> 
> Backing in means a longer travel time arriving in Miami southbound but a shorter time departing Miami northbound. So they'd *want* to back in heading northbound regardless. If they have a long southbound train, they may have to accept the extra time involved in backing in. This is tolerable.


Passenger cars are 16' longer than the P42's. With vestibules forward, I don't think the first car of a 12-car train backed in would platform. But they could load on the crossing. 

On a 13-car train, the door would probably be beyond the crossing. If they had passengers walk back, they would have to make sure they don't put a handicapped passenger there for Miami.


----------



## jis

I don't think after Super Star is done there will be a 12-13 car train anyway.

As for backing in after the train is looped in Hialeah, the fastest way to get the train into MIC is to simply attach a locomotive at the other end. Don't even need to hook up HEP and all, if you are willing to let someone sit in the road locomotive now at the rear end. It is probably much safer too.


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> Passenger cars are 16' longer than the P42's. With vestibules forward, I don't think the first car of a 12-car train backed in would platform. But they could load on the crossing.
> 
> On a 13-car train, the door would probably be beyond the crossing. If they had passengers walk back, they would have to make sure they don't put a handicapped passenger there for Miami.


....unless they use the new Siemens Ventures where wheelchairs can roll between cars!


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## joelkfla

neroden said:


> Measure the backing time in Tampa.


OK. The schedule difference between Lakeland & Tampa with & without the backup move is 13 minutes. The distance from Hialeah is about 1.7 times the distance from the Tampa wye. I calculate that the backup move from Hialeah should take 22 minutes.


jis said:


> As for backing in after the train is looped in Hialeah, the fastest way to get the train into MIC is to simply attach a locomotive at the other end.


But then you're losing 69' of platform to the engine. That might not get another door on the platform.


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## neroden

jis said:


> I don't think after Super Star is done there will be a 12-13 car train anyway.
> 
> As for backing in after the train is looped in Hialeah, the fastest way to get the train into MIC is to simply attach a locomotive at the other end. Don't even need to hook up HEP and all, if you are willing to let someone sit in the road locomotive now at the rear end. It is probably much safer too.


I think there's a name for a locomotive which just hauls trains in and out of the passenger station. It used to be a thing, in the 19th century (at that time, often to eliminate smoke from mainline locomotives within the trainshed). Could certainly bring that back.


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## joelkfla

neroden said:


> ....unless they use the new Siemens Ventures where wheelchairs can roll between cars!


That's gonna be a few years.


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## neroden

My comments should be interpreted in the context that, like Jis, I think once the Meteor comes back, it is unlikely that trains longer than 11 cars will run routinely, at least not for several years in the future. 

If they have to do a one-off for a special extra-long Thanksgiving train or something, I think they can.


----------



## joelkfla

neroden said:


> My comments should be interpreted in the context that, like Jis, I think once the Meteor comes back, it is unlikely that trains longer than 11 cars will run routinely, at least not for several years in the future.
> 
> If they have to do a one-off for a special extra-long Thanksgiving train or something, I think they can.


Like I said above, I couldn't find anything on YouTube beyond 10 cars, except for deadheads tacked on.


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## cocojacoby

joelkfla said:


> Like I said above, I couldn't find anything on YouTube beyond 10 cars, except for deadheads tacked on.



One thing you will find on YouTube is an occasional Silver train with only one engine. Would they dare do that using a new ACL-4 Siemens?

No problem fitting then.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Heritage dining car and baggage car. Change at Amtrak is glacial, but it does happen.


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## cirdan

Brian Battuello said:


> Heritage dining car and baggage car. Change at Amtrak is glacial, but it does happen.


The video is from 2011


----------



## dan

The Pennsylvanian comes into the Pittsburgh station's spur engine first. After riders get off, the train backs out and does a wye so it's facing the right way to depart East in the morning. Why couldn't they do that in Miami?


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## jis

dan said:


> The Pennsylvanian comes into the Pittsburgh station's spur engine first. After riders get off, the train backs out and does a wye so it's facing the right way to depart East in the morning. Why couldn't they do that in Miami?


That is what they do in Miami now and will continue to do after they move to MIC. They just use a balloon track instead of a wye at Hialeah to turn the train


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## cocojacoby

dan said:


> The Pennsylvanian comes into the Pittsburgh station's spur engine first. After riders get off, the train backs out and does a wye so it's facing the right way to depart East in the morning. Why couldn't they do that in Miami?


They disconnected the SW leg of the wye when they put the new crossing in at 28th Street.


----------



## joelkfla

dan said:


> The Pennsylvanian comes into the Pittsburgh station's spur engine first. After riders get off, the train backs out and does a wye so it's facing the right way to depart East in the morning. Why couldn't they do that in Miami?


If it comes in engine first, it will have to back up 3.5 mi. to Hialeah yard for overnight maintenance anyway, where it is run around a balloon loop to be turned for the next day. That's not a problem after passengers have been discharged.

The issue is that the platform at the new station is only long enough for 10 cars + 2 engines, and the current combined Meteor/Star and, reportedly, the normal Meteor on rare occasions, are longer than 10 cars.

People were discussing the possibility of backing into the station to platform an additional car or 2, but that would require doing the balloon loop with passengers on board and then backing up 3.5 miles, which would delay arrival.

As @cocojacoby said, there used to be wye near the station, but it is no longer there.


----------



## joelkfla

joelkfla said:


> Like I said above, I couldn't find anything on YouTube beyond 10 cars, except for deadheads tacked on.


I should add that since I've been watching on YouTube for past 6 weeks, deadheads have been inserted behind the locomotives. They'll have to go back to putting them at the end of the train if they want to platform a 10-car train at MIC head-in.


----------



## frequentflyer

cocojacoby said:


> No way to easily back a southbound in right now. You would have to do the loop in Hialeah and then slowly back four miles to MIA. Passengers might not consider that very "tolerable" adding lots of time to their arrival. The wye would need to be rebuilt to make backing in more practical and that is not in the cards at this time.
> 
> Blocking the crossing is no big deal since they have built an alternative route for the few times a day it might happen. If they really needed to, they could build more platform on the other side of the crossing.
> 
> Northbounds would always need to be backed from Hialeah but as a deadhead move.



Why back in at all? The train still have to be serviced at Hialeah. That is the whole contention, the distance between the station and the servicing area. As JIS stated, I bet the train will be pull back by a switcher. Unless work rules makes it cheaper for the crew that brings the train in to just back it up.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Not sure there a switcher assigned to Hialeah. There was a contract switch operated by CSX a few years back, but Dave Gunn canceled that one. They were using the road unit to move passenger cars around as needed.

Just another expense to be added.


----------



## joelkfla

frequentflyer said:


> Why back in at all? The train still have to be serviced at Hialeah. That is the whole contention, the distance between the station and the servicing area. As JIS stated, I bet the train will be pull back by a switcher. Unless work rules makes it cheaper for the crew that brings the train in to just back it up.


The usable platform appears to be 962'. Reversing in pulled by an added engine, you would get one additional car in, and the door would be on the crossing, not the platform -- which gets you no more than if you come head-in and unload an 11th baggage car in the crossing. Backing in without an added engine would get you 11 cars on the platform, plus the one in the crossing.

How long would it take to split the train at Hialeah with passengers on board, and use both sides of the platform? Or to have a switcher split the train at MIC? Maybe they could unload 11 passenger cars, and pull off just the 12th baggage car at MIC and back that into the other track.

But this whole discussion is interesting but academic if they never again run more than 10 cars on the Meteor (or 11 if they unload baggage in the crossing.) Maybe they'll just add 2 cars to the 8-car Star if they need more capacity.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> But this whole discussion is interesting but academic if they never again run more than 10 cars on the Meteor (or 11 if they unload baggage in the crossing.) Maybe they'll just add 2 cars to the 8-car Star if they need more capacity.


The Star is slated to get another Sleeper and maybe another Coach in the 24-25 timeframe making it a regular 10 car train like the Meteor, or so is the indication from a few usually trustworthy sources.


----------



## jis

4 Coaches
3 Sleepers
1 Lounge
1 Diner
1 Baggage

adds upto 10.

Actually if they do add another Coach it becomes 11, but that is a definite extreme maybe.

Either way, it will sort of fit with the Baggage car sticking out into the crossing.


----------



## Ryan

joelkfla said:


> How long would it take to split the train at Hialeah with passengers on board, and use both sides of the platform?


This seems like the logical solution - the two tracks split to 4 just south of the 28th street crossing. Have a switch engine sitting on one of the platform tracks, with the switch lined to the other platform. Stop the train with the middle of it in the 28th street crossing and pull the pin. First half of the train pulls into the station with everything on the platform. Throw the switch, engine pulls up and hooks up, pulls the second half onto the other platform.

_Here's where the Real Railroaders remind me why this would take too long to be practical._

Looking at Google Maps, it looks like the land for the missing leg of the wye is still there. Is there something not-obvious that would simply prevent the track from being rebuilt (other than it doesn't get you anything other than the length of the locomotives more in platform space)?


----------



## jis

AFAIK Other than being able to acquire the wye from CSX nothing stands in the way. CSX apparently wants someone to take the entire Homestead Secondary off their hands for some spectacular price, not just the wye.


----------



## lordsigma

Will probably see another Star sleeper when they start pulling stored Viewliner 1s out of mothballs. I would expect any additional sleepers to go to the Silvers and Lake Shore as those seem to be the favored trains at the moment.


----------



## joelkfla

Ryan said:


> Looking at Google Maps, it looks like the land for the missing leg of the wye is still there. Is there something not-obvious that would simply prevent the track from being rebuilt (other than it doesn't get you anything other than the length of the locomotives more in platform space)?


Just the cost of doing it to accommodate an apparently miniscule number of trains per year with more than 10 cars. Maybe if they ever wanted to expand the Meteor beyond 11 cars on a semi-regular basis, it might be worthwhile.

And remember, because the locomotives are shorter than the cars, and the doors are at the front of the cars, it only gets one more car to the platform. They could double that if they moved baggage to the front of the train, as well.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I don't think after Super Star is done there will be a 12-13 car train anyway.
> 
> As for backing in after the train is looped in Hialeah, the fastest way to get the train into MIC is to simply attach a locomotive at the other end. Don't even need to hook up HEP and all, if you are willing to let someone sit in the road locomotive now at the rear end. It is probably much safer too.



There will always be the need to deadhead equipment or to convey private varnish.

Or, God forbid, passenger numbers might actually increase to the point that longer trains are needed.

Designing a station that might still be in use 50 years from now for the minimalist needs of today can be a very shorted policy.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Designing a station that might still be in use 50 years from now for the minimalist needs of today can be a very shorted policy.


I agree. But we have a station such as it is. The question now is should it be used or not, and if so what is the best way to operate it, and not about what its design should be. At most what we can do is build out a platform beyond the grade crossing to allow a few more cars, which of course can be done at any time. Building a completely new station with a new design at MIC is not going to happen. This is not a greenfield station design situation at present. That time passed 10-15 years back.

There is space set aside for a third platform with two platform tracks, which will most likely be used at some point by Brightline, and that will be a high level platform and most likely will not extend beyond the grade crossing since Brightline trains will not be more than ten cars plus two SCB-40s


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> I agree. But we have a station such as it is. The question now is should it be used or not, and if so what is the best way to operate it, and not about what its design should be. At most what we can do is build out a platform beyond the grade crossing to allow a few more cars, which of course can be done at any time. Building a completely new station with a new design at MIC is not going to happen. This is not a greenfield station design situation at present. That time passed 10-15 years back.
> 
> There is space set aside for a third platform with two platform tracks, which will most likely be used at some point by Brightline, and that will be a high level platform and most likely will not extend beyond the grade crossing since Brightline trains will not be more than ten cars plus two SCB-40s



Admittedly I'm not familiar with the situation or any constraints that may exist on the ground, but would it not be possible to divert the road to permit longer platforms. That might be a few extra seconds for motorists but a huge plus for Amtrak?


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## cocojacoby

cirdan said:


> Admittedly I'm not familiar with the situation or any constraints that may exist on the ground, but would it not be possible to divert the road to permit longer platforms. That might be a few extra seconds for motorists but a huge plus for Amtrak?


Already done. They built a bypass for whenever the road is blocked. See previous posts.


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## cirdan

cocojacoby said:


> Already done. They built a bypass for whenever the road is blocked. See previous posts.


cant they just always use the bypass and remove the present crossing to build proper platforms ?


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## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> cant they just always use the bypass and remove the present crossing to build proper platforms ?


The station has low platforms. Amtrak loads/unloads on grade crossings and platforms that are no more than a strip of asphalt at other locations. Why bother to take out the road and build a platform? Just use the road surface for one car, and if necessary build a platform on the far side of the crossing for additional cars.


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## neroden

cirdan said:


> cant they just always use the bypass and remove the present crossing to build proper platforms ?


Yes. The Car Lobby protested against the extra minute of driving time, so we ended up with this situation. :eyeroll: 

I figure if the number of people taking the train at Miami Intermodal increases enough, this car lobby opposition will shrink and melt away. So it's something which can happen in the future.


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## west point

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I said this before, but building a station for today’s length of trains is fine, but not have the space to lengthen the platform for tomorrow trains is foolish. Your just shooting yourself in the foot, by not thinking of your future needs. This limited length of terminal track will cause operational issues.


Yes VRE has that problem at some of their stations.


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## west point

Train length? Do not forget when private cars on the end of train.


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## Just-Thinking-51

west point said:


> Train length? Do not forget when private cars on the end of train.


Or when they are Deadhead equipment for routine maintenance.


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## cocojacoby

west point said:


> Train length? Do not forget when private cars on the end of train.


Would private car occupants be required to get off at the Miami Airport or could they ride the train back to the Hialeah yard?


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## bonzoesc

Paywalled article about it in the Herald today: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article259742360.html

No hard dates, mostly the same as the Next Miami article, but one more quote:


> An Amtrak spokesperson, Kimberly Woods, did not respond to the Miami Herald’s questions about Amtrak’s plans. Tish Burgher, a spokesperson for Florida’s Transportation Department, said the agency met with Amtrak in February but hasn’t yet scheduled the follow-up meeting where both sides plan “to discuss Amtrak’s intercity passenger rail service at the MIC.”


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