# Inside the new St. Paul Union Depot



## jebr (Dec 5, 2012)

Can't wait for it to open...this weekend already! Might have to make a trip down to it soon.

http://minnesota.pub...-depot-reopens/

And an article about the reopening, with more pictures:

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/12/05/business/historic-union-depot-reopen/


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## Railroad Bill (Dec 5, 2012)

So Amtrak will begin using this depot next year? Looks like a real showplace. And perhaps a place for future Gathering meetings


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## TimePeace (Dec 5, 2012)

Wow what a great looking station. Hope to get a good stopover there some time!

I love the old stations, and it is so good to see them restored.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 5, 2012)

Nice.







At first I was a little unimpressed with the choice of interior colors, but when they explained the work they put into recreating the original color scheme and the symbolism it represented my concerns were alleviated.






So many interesting and unique stations have been left to rot or destroyed entirely. Many others have been re-purposed for freight operations or tasks unrelated to transportation of any kind. A tiny few have been saved and even fewer still have been carefully repaired and remodeled as closely to the original creators wishes as possible. St. Paul seems to have the best of all worlds with a station that was meticulously restored and will soon begin serving trains again as a new transportation hub just as the original designers, builders, and operators would have wanted.

Congratulations St. Paul!

Now, can we somehow convince AGR to start allowing stopovers for a change?


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## fizzball (Dec 5, 2012)

Union Depot's facebook page has been well-tended. It seems CP isn't in a huge hurry to build the connecting track.


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## Blackwolf (Dec 5, 2012)

fizzball said:


> Union Depot's facebook page has been well-tended. It seems CP isn't in a huge hurry to build the connecting track.


Considering very recent developments with CP, there may be reason for them not to have much interest in placing work into the connecting track. See the thread I started *here*, including the story it is linked to, for more information about it all.

The article makes mention of CP readying to divest itself of a lot of routes in the United States. It would not be a far fetch that the lines around St. Paul are on the list of assets soon to be for sale.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 5, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> fizzball said:
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> > Union Depot's facebook page has been well-tended. It seems CP isn't in a huge hurry to build the connecting track.
> ...


CP is looking to get rid of the western part of the DM&E and maybe the Delaware and Hudson. Nothing to do with anything near St. Paul. These talks tend to drag on for a long time since everyone associated with the action wants to be absolved of any responsibility in case anything bad happens, such as a derailment.


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## EMDF9A (Dec 5, 2012)

I have fond memories of arriving @ SPUD aboard the Vista-Domed North Coast Limited. I'm only slightly disappointed my next arrival there will be aboard the Empire Builder. What a BEAUTIFUL restoration job!


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## TraneMan (Dec 5, 2012)

Really wish I could be there this weekend for it!


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## anir dendroica (Dec 6, 2012)

I think it would make more sense for the EB to take the fast BNSF tracks through St. Paul, then back around the wye into the depot. As it is already a reverse move into the stub-ended platform track, the extra 1/3 mile wouldn't add that much time. It always seems silly to coast into town at 70 mph only to stop several times for manual-throw switches near Midway.

I've also heard rumors that the #808/#707 car will continue to be added/removed at Midway, potentially adding more time to the schedule. Would it not make more sense to simply have #7 drop the car at the end of the platform, to be cleaned overnight and picked up by the next morning's #8?

Mark


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## dlagrua (Dec 7, 2012)

Looks nice. I hope to see that terminal some day. The sad news is that the Minneapolis Union Station, a once beautiful facility was decommissioned years ago. Its located right in central city but I believe that it's now a hotel or office center.


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 7, 2012)

Minneapolis did not have a Union Station. The largest station was the Great Northern Depot at Hennipin Avenue and the River. It was originally used by Amtrak until 1979 when it was demolished. The new Federal Reserve Bank now occupies that location. The Great Northern Depot served the Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Burlington, Northwestern, Great Western and the Minneapolis &St.Louis. The smaller Milwaukee Road's Depot is 3 blocks away at Washington and 3rd Street. The former head house is an upscale hotel, but the tracks were removed years ago. That depot served the Milwaukee Road, Rock Island and Sioux Line. It closed on April 30, 1971.


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## jebr (Dec 7, 2012)

Here are some historical photos of SPUD.

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2012/12/07/union-depot-historical-photos/


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## rocknviking (Dec 8, 2012)

After tourning the depot today I came away very impressed! I stopped by the Amtrak booth and was told that Amtrak will not relocate to the depot until late 2013 at the earliest.


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## jebr (Dec 8, 2012)

rocknviking said:


> After tourning the depot today I came away very impressed! I stopped by the Amtrak booth and was told that Amtrak will not relocate to the depot until late 2013 at the earliest.


Really? If so, that would be tragic. At least Jefferson Lines will be moving into it, and hopefully Greyhound and Megabus will decide to do likewise, at least once the light rail connects there in 2014. It already has good local bus service and, with Jefferson Lines, intercity service around the upper Midwest.

Were you able to talk with Jefferson Lines? Are they moving all of their service there, or just portions of it?


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## TraneMan (Dec 8, 2012)

rocknviking said:


> After tourning the depot today I came away very impressed! I stopped by the Amtrak booth and was told that Amtrak will not relocate to the depot until late 2013 at the earliest.


That's too bad it is taking so long! DId they do a good table to make people aware of Amtrak's service?


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## rrdude (Dec 9, 2012)

Stunning.

Just wish every other town/village/city that opposes restoration of their depot/station could visit, or at least view via pix, this masterpiece.

It looks like SPUD has done EVERTHING right; intermodal, businesses, meeting space. PERFECT.


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## Nathanael (Dec 9, 2012)

I wish we could figure out what is holding up the move of Amtrak to SPUD. CP, BNSF, UP, have all been suggested. This needs to happen ASAP and it would be nice to know who to write letters to...


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## rocknviking (Dec 9, 2012)

TraneMan said:


> rocknviking said:
> 
> 
> > After tourning the depot today I came away very impressed! I stopped by the Amtrak booth and was told that Amtrak will not relocate to the depot until late 2013 at the earliest.
> ...


Unfortunately NO................

I found the Amtrak area downstairs from the main area that was open for the open house. I do not believe that Amtrak actually had a booth in the main depot area.


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## rocknviking (Dec 9, 2012)

jebr said:


> rocknviking said:
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> > After tourning the depot today I came away very impressed! I stopped by the Amtrak booth and was told that Amtrak will not relocate to the depot until late 2013 at the earliest.
> ...


Jefferson sounds like they will begin service in the very near future possibly as early as January/Febuary 2013.


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## Exiled in Express (Dec 9, 2012)

I made the walk down there tonight, the limited bus service had ended for the night so it was just me and the custodial staff. The station embodies Saint Paul to me as a non-native, understated and functional grandeur. While the headhouse is the focal point there are nooks and crannies leading to other services and parts of the building, The organic layout and exposed brick reminded me of an English station, though SPUD is heated and in good repair. I totally missed where Amtrak ticketing might be located.

Their is a first class lounge in the corner of the main room, larger and more business like in appearance than the northwoods living room at Midway. Kitchenette included, so the range of snacks may be expanded. No track access from the lounge. Amtrak boarding is at the far end of the hall, at worst maybe 2 minutes from the Fourth Street and light rail doors. Though snow covered and dark there does appear to be rail placed on both sides of the platform and there is an additional (third?) stub track to the inside of the platform, switching might be done at SPUD for 807/808/PV.

Retail was not seen on the upper level, that may be in the basement with the intercity bus bays. Signage could be a bit better. The station is on the skyway so the Crowne Plaza, Saint Paul Hotel, and Doubletree can be accessed without going outdoors.

Photos here:

http://postimage.org/image/u6s2yf5lz/ great hall

http://postimage.org/image/6sq981vgv/ lounge

http://postimage.org/image/yimu8zkb3/ platform


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## Amtrak Cajun (Dec 10, 2012)

Man, that station looks really nice. Id love to see it in person.


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## George Harris (Dec 10, 2012)

St. Paul is definitely looking like a major transportational terminal. That is certainly more than can be said for Washington DC. Having just been in Washington (DC) Union Station last week, the contrast between the two places is awesome. Washington has become so cluttered with shops and fancy smancy places that it is unrecognizable as the beautiful and open place I first saw 40 years ago. Yes, it was somewhat run down, but at least it was still recognizable and usable as a major railroad station. The true passenger station part is now a bunch of small and rather off-putting places occupying what used to be the first couple of hundred feet of track.


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## Mike Bain (Dec 10, 2012)

rocknviking said:


> TraneMan said:
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Amtrak had a "booth" inside what will be their Sleeping Car First class lounge. This lounge was in the concorse, right next to the waiting room. It was not downstairs.


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## rocknviking (Dec 13, 2012)

Amtrak indeed had a staffed booth on the lower level of the depot. It was staffed by Amtrak employees and had copies of the timetables of the EB on the counter. They were also handing out coloring books for the kids which my nephew took full advantage of. The lower level Amtrak booth is located on Kellogg Blvd and is visable when driving or walking by.


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## MIke Bain (Dec 15, 2012)

rocknviking said:


> Amtrak indeed had a staffed booth on the lower level of the depot. It was staffed by Amtrak employees and had copies of the timetables of the EB on the counter. They were also handing out coloring books for the kids which my nephew took full advantage of. The lower level Amtrak booth is located on Kellogg Blvd and is visable when driving or walking by.


Amtrak ALSO had staff and copies of the timetables and coloring books inside what will be their Sleeping Car First class lounge. This lounge is in the concourse, right next to the waiting room. The Sleeping Car First class lounge was not downstairs. I was just remarking to the person that said he didn't believe that Amtrak had a booth in the main Depot area, that yes they did ALSO have a booth in the main Depot area.


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## Mike Bain (Dec 15, 2012)

Everyone has known for 2 years that the Union Depot was scheduled to be re-opened by the end of 2012. It is pathetic that the switching issue couldn't have been addressed in spring of 2012, instead of waiting for the spring of 2013.

With even 5th grade planning, Amtrak should have been able to begin serving Union Depot the day after the Grand Opening!!!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 15, 2012)

Here's the Jefferson news release: http://www.ridejeffersonlines.com/come-see-us-at-union-depots-grand-re-opening/;

Bus service begins 14 January 2012.


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## jebr (Dec 15, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Here's the Jefferson news release: http://www.ridejeffe...and-re-opening/;
> 
> Bus service begins 14 January 2012.


Are they moving all Hawthorne operations to SPUD? (They also have stops at the U of M, MOA, the airport, and outer-ring suburban transit centers, which I'm assuming they won't move, since all of those stops are from buses that either originate or terminate at Hawthorne.)


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 15, 2012)

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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> > Here's the Jefferson news release: http://www.ridejeffe...and-re-opening/;
> ...


I don't know, I was just reading the article. I'll try to see if I can hop on a JL to St. Paul soon.


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## jebr (Dec 16, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jebr said:
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Okay. I may wind up going through the Twin Cities on Jefferson Lines that first week of service already, so if they're moving all of the Hawthorne service to SPUD, I'll be transferring through there!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 16, 2012)

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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Where ya going?


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## Nathanael (Dec 16, 2012)

Mike Bain said:


> Everyone has known for 2 years that the Union Depot was scheduled to be re-opened by the end of 2012. It is pathetic that the switching issue couldn't have been addressed in spring of 2012, instead of waiting for the spring of 2013.
> 
> With even 5th grade planning, Amtrak should have been able to begin serving Union Depot the day after the Grand Opening!!!


Everyone is assuming, probably correctly, that the problem stems from one of the freight railroads: UP, CP, or BNSF. There's not much Amtrak or Ramsey County can do if UP has decided to be obstructionist.


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## anir dendroica (Dec 16, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Mike Bain said:
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> 
> > Everyone has known for 2 years that the Union Depot was scheduled to be re-opened by the end of 2012. It is pathetic that the switching issue couldn't have been addressed in spring of 2012, instead of waiting for the spring of 2013.
> ...


Probably not BNSF, as the depot change doesn't affect their tracks or Amtrak's timetable on their routes. Most likely CP/UP, which could be bureaucratic trouble since the point where SPUD will connect is either joint CP/UP track or else adjacent tracks are separately owned by UP and CP.


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## jebr (Dec 16, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jebr said:
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I'm not entirely sure yet.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 16, 2012)

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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Why not just go to St. Paul?


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## jebr (Dec 16, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jebr said:
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I have a free roundtrip on JL from a Facebook contest, and I want to make the most of it. Plus I don't know their schedule for SPUD yet.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 16, 2012)

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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Right, hope you enjoy whatever trip you take!


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## jebr (Dec 18, 2012)

Here are some photos from SPUD that I took today. Mainly of the bus bay and waiting area, since I took the bus into Union Depot.

https://plus.google.com/photos/106906368961053430502/albums/5823436611865167649?banner=pwa&sqi&sqsi


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## TraneMan (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks for the photos!


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## Amtrak Cajun (Dec 18, 2012)

Nice photos jebr.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 18, 2012)

Look at how it's just waiting for Amtrak! Even the signs are in place! Nice Phamtoms and LFS, BTW.


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## dlagrua (Jan 14, 2014)

Older thread but worthy of mention again. St Paul is a beautiful classic restored railroad station that should be opened for train service soon. Has the official opening date in 2014 been announced?


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2014)

This article says they may move in March, we shall see.

http://finance-commerce.com/transit/2014/01/06/march-targeted-for-amtrak-move-to-union-depot/


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## dabrilloman (Jan 15, 2014)

That would be great. I am planning a trip out of St. Paul the last week of March!


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## anir dendroica (Jan 15, 2014)

That seems to be a moving target, always about two months away. Until they pick a date and make an announcement I'm not going to believe any estimate.


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## XHRTSP (Jan 15, 2014)

So with this beautiful and awesome building coming back on line, how does that change the prospects for getting new services to say Chicago or Winnipeg, if any?


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## Ispolkom (Jan 15, 2014)

anir dendroica said:


> That seems to be a moving target, always about two months away. Until they pick a date and make an announcement I'm not going to believe any estimate.


At this point, it's not surprising. They've been working on Union Depot since 2009, but didn't come to an agreement with the host railroads to connect the station to rail until last April. Then Amtrak didn't sign on until November 2013, almost a year after the depot "opened." With the Ramsey County Board in charge, everything takes a long time, and it all has to be done sequentially. Apparently you can't negotiate with the railroads until you've finished the station.

I can certainly see why Amtrak wasn't interested in signing anything about moving to Union Depot until the County Board had gotten an agreement with the railroads. They seem just as happy at Midway, and will still attach and detach cars there even after moving passenger operations to Union Depot. Amtrak clearly wasn't a prime mover in the restoration.

I'll bet money that light rail is open to Union Station before the Empire Builder stops there. The Green Line *has* to open before the All-Star Game in July. Union Depot has no such deadline.



XHRTSP said:


> So with this beautiful and awesome building coming back on line, how does that change the prospects for getting new services to say Chicago or Winnipeg, if any?


Not much. One reason for renovating Union Depot was that at the time there seemed a reasonable possibility of extra service to Chicago. That's not going to happen with the present Wisconsin state government. I don't think there's much interest in a Winnipeg line, though it's remarkably expensive to travel between the Twin Cities and Winnipeg. The proposed (and mostly dead in the water) service to Duluth would, I think, terminate at Target Field, not St. Paul Union Depot. The same is true, of course, for any trains to St. Cloud.


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## mitch (Jan 15, 2014)

The article said that Amtrak agreed to move service to St Paul station in Q1 2014 but no specifics were given. I would say that if its in the agreement, March may finally be the month. This would be historic as train service has not been in that station since 1971 when Amtrak terminated service there and relocated to the Minneapolis Great Northern Station which has since been demolished. .


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 15, 2014)

mitch said:


> This would be historic as train service has not been in that station since 1971 when Amtrak terminated service there and relocated to the Minneapolis Great Northern Station which has since been demolished.


I wonder why the desire to demolish grand railway stations was so widespread and systemic. San Antonio still has two very nice stations in excellent condition and even though neither one is used for trains anymore I'm glad we had the brains and the balls to keep any moronic Madison Squareheads from carelessly destroying them.


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## chakk (Jan 15, 2014)

jphjaxfl said:


> Minneapolis did not have a Union Station. The largest station was the Great Northern Depot at Hennipin Avenue and the River. It was originally used by Amtrak until 1979 when it was demolished. The new Federal Reserve Bank now occupies that location. The Great Northern Depot served the Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Burlington, Northwestern, Great Western and the Minneapolis &St.Louis. The smaller Milwaukee Road's Depot is 3 blocks away at Washington and 3rd Street. The former head house is an upscale hotel, but the tracks were removed years ago. That depot served the Milwaukee Road, Rock Island and Sioux Line. It closed on April 30, 1971.


Much of the area at the former Milwaukee Road Depot's tracks were has been paved -- they put in a parking lot.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2014)

In my opinion the best location for a station in the twin cities would have been where Minneapolis Union depot was. The federal reserve bank was built on that site and the tracks are gone across the stone arch bridge that connected Minneapolis to St. Paul. What a short sighted decision to abandon these tracks through downtown Minneapolis.


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## dlagrua (Jan 16, 2014)

The reason why so many grand railroad stations were torn down is because the shortsighted thinking of the day was that they would never be used again. Some beautiful architectural masterpieces have been lost forever. Structures that could never be rebuilt again. Minneapolis is just one city where this happened.


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## XHRTSP (Jan 16, 2014)

Maybe that's why so many airports look like ass, so they can eventually get razed like the train stations but without any great loss (architectural at least, Daley can still go to hell over Meigs). I don't think anyone cared when Stapleton got plowed over.


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## leemell (Jan 16, 2014)

XHRTSP said:


> Maybe that's why so many airports look like ass, so they can eventually get razed like the train stations but without any great loss (architectural at least, Daley can still go to hell over Meigs). I don't think anyone cared when Stapleton got plowed over.


One of my favorite hates --- Daley's midnight destruction of Meigs Field runway. Ranks right up there with the Colts NFL team sneaking out of Baltimore at midnight.


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## Nathanael (Jan 16, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Not much. One reason for renovating Union Depot was that at the time there seemed a reasonable possibility of extra service to Chicago. That's not going to happen with the present Wisconsin state government.


Wrong! Newspaper reports in the last few months have indicated that the Minnesota government is interested in "going it alone" on MSP - Chicago corridor service. I can imagine some interesting schedules (express from La Crescent to Milwaukee?). I wouldn't expect it to happen quickly though.


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## Trainut (Jan 16, 2014)

When the switch to SPUD comes about, be prepared to get the wallet out. The only reasonable place to park is under the depot. It will be very costly. When I went there just to look over the depot it cost me $5.75 for just 1 1/2 hours. I hate to think it will cost for 2 days or longer. Unless they put in new signage, good luck finding your way around the parking ramp. Just saying.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 16, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> Ispolkom said:
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> > Not much. One reason for renovating Union Depot was that at the time there seemed a reasonable possibility of extra service to Chicago. That's not going to happen with the present Wisconsin state government.
> ...


Nonsense. What part of the Minnesota government? Not the legislature. Not the governor, who's up for re-election this fall and won in 2010 in large part because the Republicans nominated a terrible candidate, Tom "Waiters make $100k a year" Emmer, and then only won the election by less than 9k votes. Who are you talking about?

I'm sorry, I live in St. Paul and follow our legislature closely. There is no way on God's green earth that the Minnesota legislature would appropriate money (and remember that the legislature appropriates money) for a train that would mostly benefit Wisconsin and the Twin Cities. Suburban legislators won't vote for that, and since they are the margin between the two parties for control of the legislature, DFL party leaders won't ask them to vote for that, even if that were the plan, which as far as I know it isn't. (You do know that the DFL lost both houses in 2010 and regained them in 2012, and are very hesitant to do anything to cut their margin of control, don't you?)


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## Nathanael (Jan 17, 2014)

What part ofthe government? Department of Transportation.

If you're saying the legislature won't appropriate money, well then maybe they won't.

But there's a lot of interest in being able to get to Chicago by train (without fighting against the hopeless unreliability of the Empire Builder), even in the suburbs, though not so much in the rural areas. Intercity trains appeal to a different group of people than urban trains.

I don't know how stupid the suburban DFL legislators are -- maybe you're right and they're scared of spending money on anything useful or popular. That happens. It's a good way to get the other party elected, though.

Nothing will happen until after the next election, of course. Not enough lead time.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jan 17, 2014)

Does anyone know if theres a way to route trains from SPUD to Minneapolis Interchange (Target Field)?


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## NW cannonball (Jan 17, 2014)

There is. Follow the way the Builder takes now westbound via Short Line through the MNNR yard past the present Midway Amtrak station, west through Saint Anthony Park onto the BNSF, then take the wye west at Harrison street.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 17, 2014)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Does anyone know if theres a way to route trains from SPUD to Minneapolis Interchange (Target Field)?


Yes, however if you are suggesting having the EB stop there, the train would have to take the south switch of the wye at Harrison St., across the Mississippi, into Target Field station, then back track back to Harrison st and continue on. There is no way anyone would be willing to add even more time to the already delay-prone Builder.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 17, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> What part ofthe government? Department of Transportation.
> 
> If you're saying the legislature won't appropriate money, well then maybe they won't.


Money talks, and nonsense walks. It doesn't matter how interested a bureaucrat is in trains, if the legislature isn't, and the governor isn't. And they aren't.


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## Nathanael (Jan 17, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Nathanael said:
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Well, I'm sorry to hear that they're scared of their own shadows. If they're that scaredycat about other things, they'll get kicked out -- nobody likes an elected official who won't push for anything.

The plan being proposed by DOT, as I've read it, is extremely mild and consists essentially of running a single daytime train each way from MSP to Chicago year-round, so as to eliminate the problems associated with delays coming from the west, replacing the "807/808" extra car currently run to MSP on the Empire Builder. I believe DOT's first goal was to do a study and get an estimate from Amtrak (& CP & BNSF & Metra) as to how much it would cost, and that alone is probably going to take a couple of years. The study might get funded sometime in the next few years.

By comparison with other routes, I'm personally guessing it would be less than $7 million / year to operate (that's based on looking at the Adirondack, Vermonter, and Piedmont). Perhaps after an election or two someone will be more interested in funding the actual operation.

We're talking 10 years in the future in any case. In that timescale, I think the interests of the bureaucrats and the people are better predictors than the interests of the current legislators.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 17, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> I think the interests of the bureaucrats and the people are better predictors than the interests of the current legislators.


If you believe that, Wisconsin has a couple of Talgo sets to sell you. Elected officials make policy. Bureaucrats implement it. I don't doubt that whatever office in MnDOT that handles passenger rail is busy making studies and plans. That's their job. It doesn't mean that those studies amount to anything.

In any case, the governor and legislature aren't scaredy cats. They just don't care much about intercity rail, and I've never seen evidence that that isn't a good reflection of most Minnesotans' opinion. And if the current people are turned out at the next election, their replacements won't be more interested.

But now you're talking about ten years out. I don't pretend to know what Minnesota politics will be like in 2024, and find it odd that you have such strong opinions. I only know about what things are like now. And now there is no way the Minnesota state government will fund a train that Wisconsin doesn't participate in funding. Facts are stubborn things.


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## afigg (Jan 23, 2014)

The Green Line to Union Depot is scheduled to start revenue service on June 14, 2014. News in Railway Age: June debut for St. Paul Metro Green Line. Assuming Amtrak has moved by then, that will add another station with local rail transit connections to the expanding list.


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## Nathanael (Jan 23, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> But now you're talking about ten years out. I don't pretend to know what Minnesota politics will be like in 2024, and find it odd that you have such strong opinions.


Well, I guess I've researched long-term trends more than you have have. And I'm pretty sure the Minnesota government will be funding intercity rail within 10 years.



> I only know about what things are like now. And now there is no way the Minnesota state government will fund a train that Wisconsin doesn't participate in funding. Facts are stubborn things.


I'm not disagreeing about today, but I have good reason to disagree about the future.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2014)

Well according to this article a decision on Amtrak Service to SPUD will come out next week.

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_24946706/st-paul-cusp-transit-transformation


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## Ispolkom (Jan 23, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> Ispolkom said:
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> > But now you're talking about ten years out. I don't pretend to know what Minnesota politics will be like in 2024, and find it odd that you have such strong opinions.
> ...


Hmm, like the long-term trend of Wisconsin expanding passenger rail? With minor issues like passenger rail, there are no long-term trends. Instead policy is swamped by contingent effects from other, more important issues. Scott Walker's election as governor ended any expansion of the Hiawatha, and set back any possible long term trend toward a Chicago-Twin Cities train. Was the Hiawatha actually an important issue in that election?

The route to Duluth was viable as long as Rep Oberstar was the congressman for that district. He had influence in federal transportation funding. When he lost a reelection bid in 2010, that pretty much ended that project's viability, even though the project was not an issue in the campaign. Neither of his successors have spent any time or effort I've seen on passenger rail.

To believe in long-term trends is to imagine that politics have no effect on policy. That simply isn't true. It can be terribly important who is elected, as the 2010 elections in Minnesota and Wisconsin showed. In any case there is no long-term trend in favor of passenger rail. Sure, we got the North Star commuter line, but that was a poisoned gift. The poor ridership numbers on that line are used as proof that Minnesotans won't ride trains, except perhaps to Twins games.

You want to know what's important? Money. Look where the money goes. Look, for instance, at how much state and local money has been appropriated for passenger rail, and compare that to how much has been appropriated for sports stadiums. That is the sort of trend that matters.

I wish it were otherwise. I wish that I had there were more than two trains a day in St. Paul, and that I could regard OTP as something other than a joke. But that's not the reality.


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## CHamilton (Jan 23, 2014)

> Breaking News: Effective January 29, Megabus.com will move it's St. Paul arrival/departure location to Union Depot. You can check out their schedule at www.megabus.com. ·


From Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/mark.lawrence.549668/posts/339831202826143?stream_ref=9


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## jebr (Jan 23, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> > Breaking News: Effective January 29, Megabus.com will move it's St. Paul arrival/departure location to Union Depot. You can check out their schedule at www.megabus.com. ·
> 
> 
> From Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/mark.lawrence.549668/posts/339831202826143?stream_ref=9


This is good news! Good to see Union Depot becoming an intermodal center with lots of use by all styles of public transportation.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## Nathanael (Jan 24, 2014)

You want to know what predicts long-term trends? Public mood.

There was no trend of more passenger rail in Wisconsin, there was little public mood for it, and frankly I was positively surprised when the Madison project got off the ground. Walker of course sabotaged it deliberately by breaking contracts, which is actually unusual (though it is what you expect from someone most of whose senior staff has been convicted). Even so, the project will probably be back eventually because the city of Madison wants it, and everyone's staring at next-door Illinois.

(Why do I say there's no trend in Wisconsin? The existing Milwaukee service and the existing Metra service to Kenosha both predate 1970. Attempts to increase frequencies have failed. Attempts to extend Metra service have failed. Attempts to build a Milwaukee Streetcar have not succeeded yet. The extension of the Hiawatha Service to Watertown in '98 was started and then cancelled. The only successful projects so far are the miniscule Kenosha streetcar and the minimalistic Milwaukee Airport station.)

By contrast, there is a trend of more passenger rail in Minnesota, and an increase in "mindshare". There wasn't before Jesse Ventura got the Hiawatha Line opened, but there has been since then, and it hasn't stopped. Projects are going to keep getting funded and built. And intrastate politics is going to mean that one of the intercity projects is going to get built relatively soon (next decade or so), due to the usual way the arguments play out when everyone starts being pro-rail: after the first several urban lines, people start saying "Why can't we get to other cities?". It is possible that Chicago-Twin Cities will be pushed onto the back burner repeatedly if *another* project successfully gets funded like St. Cloud or Duluth or Rochester or something -- but that seems truly unlikely.

If not, and if a standalone Chicago-Twin Cities service turns out to be relatively cheap (as it is likely to be), a standalone Chicago-Twin Cities service will probably be the sop thrown to intercity rail.

Duluth service (before Chicago service) was always a longshot and was maintained purely by Oberstar's advocacy -- but you'll notice he didn't manage to get it done despite being in office for decades. Politicians make a difference, but politicians are swayed by the public mood.

And I guess you don't think Minnesotans give a damn about whether they can get to Chicago by train. Well, I think the percentage who give a damn has been slowly edging up and will continue to do so. This question could only be settled by polling which I haven't been able to find.

You speak of money. Well, look how much money actually has been appropriated for passenger rail in Minnesota. Yes, you've blown vast quantities on stadia, but you've also actually put meaningful amounts into passenger rail. The fact that most of it has happened at the county level doesn't really change the long-term implications of that, politically. By contrast, Iowa seems unable to spend a dime.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 24, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> You want to know what predicts long-term trends? Public mood.
> 
> ....
> 
> And I guess you don't think Minnesotans give a damn about whether they can get to Chicago by train. Well, I think the percentage who give a damn has been slowly edging up and will continue to do so. This question could only be settled by polling which I haven't been able to find.


We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't have a clue what public mood is, or what your perception of it is based on. It does seem to not be based on anything citable, and I'll say in advance that polls aren't worth much, because there are lots of things that people will say they want, but aren't willing to pay for. Look at North Dakota and the Churchs Ferry project which, as far as I can see, North Dakota hasn't appropriated a dime for.

I prefer to stick to facts and political reality. The political reality is that the state of Minnesota will never pay to run a train that goes through Wisconsin without Wisconsin also paying. I'll happily promise to buy you a first-class ticket on the first run of any such train, because I know I'll never have to pay up.

On the other hand, I'm modestly hopeful that I was wrong in my claim that light rail would start at SPUD before Amtrak moves in. I eagerly await the January 27 announcement.


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## VentureForth (Jan 24, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> You want to know what's important? Money. Look where the money goes. Look, for instance, at how much state and local money has been appropriated for passenger rail, and compare that to how much has been appropriated for sports stadiums. That is the sort of trend that matters.
> 
> I wish it were otherwise. I wish that I had there were more than two trains a day in St. Paul, and that I could regard OTP as something other than a joke. But that's not the reality.


You know the return on investment of a sports stadium vs public transit? And what if the government stopped subsidizing roads and air in favor of rail?


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## Ispolkom (Jan 24, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> You know the return on investment of a sports stadium vs public transit? And what if the government stopped subsidizing roads and air in favor of rail?


Is there a return on public "investment" in a sport stadium? I've always thought that any public money spent on sports teams was a dead loss.

As for your second question, Minnesota won't stop subsidizing roads and air in favor of rail. The air subsidies are minor, I think (mostly improvements at small airports), but the requirement to maintain a public road network has been a whole separate article in the state constitution for almost a hundred years.


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## VentureForth (Jan 24, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > You know the return on investment of a sports stadium vs public transit? And what if the government stopped subsidizing roads and air in favor of rail?
> ...


 I'm not sure how Minnesota does it, but what I've seen around where I've lived is that when a municipality invests in a sports stadium, they OWN it. They then grant license fees and collect rent from ALL the users. For instance, the Texas Stadium is HOME to the Dallas Cowboys. The city of Arlington owns the facility and charges the Cowboys to rent it - not to mention all advertising and ticket fees are split between the NFL, the Stadium (city), etc. Many other entities use Texas Stadium throughout the year in the off season, though of course none come close to the revenue of the primary user. Concessions are also run by the stadium - not by the sports team. Then there are the increased hotel taxes and fuel taxes that are collected by the the city and state from the 70,000 people that converge on the facility.

Obviously reality is much more complex than this and I could be totally off, but that's how I understand it.

Meanwhile, public rail in the US (unlike many other countries) is priced to be a way of subsidizing travel to those with disabilities or low incomes. Public busses (Greyhound is NOT a public bus!) are the same way, but politically easier to swallow. When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?

These are tax drains on an economy. When it is planned well enough and there is a population big enough, rail has a huge place in the movement of people around the country. Otherwise, it's an expensive toy. That being said, I LOVE the fact that Amtrak exists and I will continue to patronize them as time, money and experiences permit.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 24, 2014)

The Arlington also sold hundreds of millions of dollars in tax-exempt bonds to build the stadium, so we're all paying for that stadium in a bigger federal deficit. Also, isn't there a county half percent sales tax?

As far as full city buses go, the last one I saw was the #94B I was on in St. Paul this morning. Mrs. Ispolkom had a breakfast meeting out in some suburb, so she took the car, and I took the bus. Before that, in Chicago the #66 and #146 buses we were on last weekend were full. Not that it matters, but my income is hardly low, nor am I disabled. Not that there is anything wrong with either condition.


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 24, 2014)

I live in Jacksonville, Fl and often see full busses of the JTA in the peak rush hour times. If the system were more comprehensive with better service, I would expect to see even more full busses.


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## Nathanel (Jan 24, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> I prefer to stick to facts and political reality. The political reality is that the state of Minnesota will never pay to run a train that goes through Wisconsin without Wisconsin also paying. I'll happily promise to buy you a first-class ticket on the first run of any such train, because I know I'll never have to pay up.


Heh. Thanks -- we'll see. That's a particularly easy bet to win, because I don't think any such train will *have* first class seats.  Coach-only seems to be the trend...
FWIW, Michigan runs trains through Indiana, Maine runs trains through New Hampshire, and Oklahoma used to run a train through Texas, without support from the intervening states.



> On the other hand, I'm modestly hopeful that I was wrong in my claim that light rail would start at SPUD before Amtrak moves in. I eagerly await the January 27 announcement.


As a confirmed pessimist most of the time (yeah, I know, you wouldn't think it from this conversation, would you?) I'm currently betting on "March 31st", which would be the latest possible date to move Amtrak within the "first quarter" restriction of the contract.


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## afigg (Jan 24, 2014)

Nathanel said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > I prefer to stick to facts and political reality. The political reality is that the state of Minnesota will never pay to run a train that goes through Wisconsin without Wisconsin also paying. I'll happily promise to buy you a first-class ticket on the first run of any such train, because I know I'll never have to pay up.
> ...


Also, NC pays for the Carolinian which runs through VA. Vermont was exclusively paying to support the Vermonter north of Springfield, although MA and CT are now chipping in for their share of the passengers north of New Haven.
I would think the deciding factor for Minnesota is how much it will cost in one time capital costs and continuing subsidy to operate a single daily train to Chicago. The trip times of the EB from CHI to the Twin Cities is already fairly good, so there is not a need for major track upgrades to get decent speeds. It comes down to how much CP will demand in track upgrades to add a second passenger train to the route? If it is not much or the state and CP can reach an agreement on a multi-year series of incremental upgrades for future service improvements that spreads the cost out while the new corridor service is running, then it won't cost MN much out of its annual budget. The state and the Twin Cities are spending a lot of money to add light rail lines and restore SPUD as a modern intermodal station. The cost of a single daily Twin Cities to Chicago corridor train should be small potatoes in comparison. The bigger cost may be in the rolling stock if MN wants to have the new corridor bi-level cars for the service. But there may be ways to pay for that.

As for first class seats, the corridor bi-level order includes a number of cars with business class seating. So substitute a business class ticket for the bet if you win.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 24, 2014)

"...When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?"

Um, this morning. In the Seattle area, King County Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit (Snohomish County) buses are packed at rush hour.


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## CHamilton (Jan 24, 2014)

zephyr17 said:


> "...When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?"
> 
> Um, this morning. In the Seattle area, King County Metro, Sound Transit, and Community Transit (Snohomish County) buses are packed at rush hour.


And Tri-Met (Portland, OR), and Vancouver, BC, and Washington, DC, and Baltimore, and Chicago, and even Los Angeles, among many others.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 24, 2014)

afigg said:


> Nathanel said:
> 
> 
> > Ispolkom said:
> ...


Other states do lots of things that Minnesota doesn't do. I've been told, for instance, that other states allow you to buy liquor or a car on Sunday. Every year polls show that the vast majority of Minnesotans want to buy hootch on Sundays, and every year the bill to allow it goes down by something like 100 to 30 in the house.

The devil is, as usual, is in the details. Most of the costs of the light rail lines, and almost all of the SPUD restoration are paid for with federal funds, and they are facilities that are in Minnesota. If you can pay for a new train from St. Paul to Chicago with federal funds, no problem. If you expect state money, though, you're out of luck. Who are the advocates for intercity rail in the Minnesota Legislature? I sure haven't heard them.

Opponents, though, I can name. The heads of the house tax and the transportation committees are hostile to passenger rail. The latter, for instance, recently explained that commuter rail east of the Twin Cities is a non-starter. Why? The poor ridership on the North Star line shows that Minnesotans won't ride trains. I can assure, you, though, that there would be howls of opposition to wasting money on a choo-choo train (another phrase I've heard often from legislators) that stops in maybe three or four cities in Minnesota, especially since the Twin Cities already has frequent air and bus service to Chicago for which the state doesn't have to appropriate money.

The problem is that the DFL isn't interested in intercity rail, and the Republicans tend to be hostile. Without any ardent supporters, nothing happens. Look at the governor's bonding proposal, you'll see.... $2 million for grade crossings.

As for CP, I'd expect a very large bill for upgrades, given how much traffic they are moving both to and from the North Dakota oil patch. If you look at the Empire Builder OTP, CP's delays aren't much lower, proportionally, than BNSF's.


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## mwmnp (Jan 25, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> The poor ridership on the North Star line shows that Minnesotans won't ride trains.


Did you happen to see the 2013 ridership figures released this week by Metro Transit? To partially quote the Star Tribune article (http://www.startribune.com/local/241672341.html), "boardings on the Northstar Commuter line were up 12 percent compared to the previous year and were among the reasons Metro Transit saw an overall increase of 315,000 rides system wide, agency officials said...Customers took 787,239 rides, the highest ridership total since the line between Big Lake and Minneapolis began four year ago. Weekday ridership, the line's primary target, was up 17 percent."



Ispolkom said:


> As for CP, I'd expect a very large bill for upgrades, given how much traffic they are moving both to and from the North Dakota oil patch. If you look at the Empire Builder OTP, CP's delays aren't much lower, proportionally, than BNSF's.


Having been brought in to quickly turn around unsatisfying financial metrics, CP also has current President and CEO Hunter Harrison using the playbook he perfected during his past tenure as President of Canadian National. One hallmark is that as many individual trains as feasible shall be combined into a single super-long train approaching, or surpassing, two miles in length. So what if the length means the train is slower over the road (and thus more likely to delay Amtrak, the speediest traffic on the CP). Reducing costs by decreasing the overall number of people required to move traffic from endpoint-to-endpoint pleases the investors.


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## jebr (Jan 25, 2014)

mwmnp said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > The poor ridership on the North Star line shows that Minnesotans won't ride trains.
> ...


It's worth noting that Metro Transit lowered weekday fares by up to a dollar each way for the Northstar, and has it priced the same as express buses where it competes against them. I imagine the fare change is a large reason for the growth, and I worry it isn't sustainable.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## leemell (Jan 25, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Meanwhile, public rail in the US (unlike many other countries) is priced to be a way of subsidizing travel to those with disabilities or low incomes. Public busses (Greyhound is NOT a public bus!) are the same way, but politically easier to swallow. When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?


Every day in Los Angeles. The Orange Line in the San Fernando Valley seldom is not full.


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 25, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Meanwhile, public rail in the US (unlike many other countries) is priced to be a way of subsidizing travel to those with disabilities or low incomes. Public busses (Greyhound is NOT a public bus!) are the same way, but politically easier to swallow. When was the last time you saw a full city bus outside of NYC?


Chicago, every day.


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## VentureForth (Jan 25, 2014)

That's good to know. I just know in Savannah, Albuquerque and Dallas, I've never seen a full bus. If they are running full in other cities, why doesn't private enterprise take it over?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3 using Tapatalk


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## Nathanael (Jan 26, 2014)

Regarding full buses, even if the buses were profitable (which they usually aren't), it would be a low-margin, capital-intensive business. If you have paid any attention to what's happened to private industry in this country, you'll realize that the "money men" have little or no interest in such businesses. Furthermore, people don't WANT a bunch of competing private bus companies with uncoordinated schedules and separate fares competing for bus stop access... this already happens in some cities and everyone hates it. Transportation is a natural monopoly and should therefore be run by a democratically-elected government.

As for the head of the transportation committee -- people with unreasoning hostility to passenger rail tend to make stupid decisions on all other transportation policy too. Eventually people get ticked off about this and the transportation committee chair gets replaced.


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## Nathanael (Jan 26, 2014)

FWIW, the governor's bonding proposal has a miniscule transportation component period, consisting almost entirely of block grants to local governments, and not much of that either. I can't count that as indicative of transportation policy, except perhaps to indicate that the state government doesn't think transportation of any sort is particularly important right now.


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## Nathanael (Jan 26, 2014)

Hunter Harrison at CP could certainly cause trouble. On the other hand, from his record at CN, he's the "stay for a few years, then run away before the government investigations catch up with the company" type of CEO, so that may be a *short-term* issue only...

I'm not saying Harrison was *all* bad at CN -- the "scheduled railroad" attempt was a good idea, contrasted with the "we run it when the train's full" approach which CP still uses for most freight trains -- but maintenance suffered, trains were derailing with toxic spills, etc... deferred maintenance is the easiest way to mismanage a railroad, and he did it.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 26, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> Hunter Harrison at CP could certainly cause trouble. On the other hand, from his record at CN, he's the "stay for a few years, then run away before the government investigations catch up with the company" type of CEO, so that may be a *short-term* issue only...
> 
> I'm not saying Harrison was *all* bad at CN -- the "scheduled railroad" attempt was a good idea, contrasted with the "we run it when the train's full" approach which CP still uses for most freight trains -- but maintenance suffered, trains were derailing with toxic spills, etc... deferred maintenance is the easiest way to mismanage a railroad, and he did it.


Amen!! The employees at CN hated him, and I can say I know at least a few guys a CP that hate him too. He is the kind of guy that cares all about the $ and the stockholders. He is also the kind of guy that has illusions of "a good way to run a railroad" when in reality his methods are just not working. He cares nothing about safety of the citizens, like a toxic derailment in Calgary. It is these kind of people that SHOULD NOT be running a railroad, or any business for that matter.


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## mwmnp (Jan 27, 2014)

bgiaquin said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > Hunter Harrison at CP could certainly cause trouble. On the other hand, from his record at CN, he's the "stay for a few years, then run away before the government investigations catch up with the company" type of CEO, so that may be a *short-term* issue only...
> ...


I've heard stories of how he was mostly hated and looked upon as a joke during his time with Burlington Northern in the 80s too but nevertheless mesmerized the executives enough to keep getting promoted. That is, until Gerald Grinstein became President and CEO and booted him out.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 27, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> As for the head of the transportation committee -- people with unreasoning hostility to passenger rail tend to make stupid decisions on all other transportation policy too. Eventually people get ticked off about this and the transportation committee chair gets replaced.


But people who are favorable to rail also make stupid decisions and lose elections, like Congressman Oberstar. I've never seen any proof that Minnesotans in general, and those of Edina in particular, care about intercity rail, so I doubt he loses any sleep about it.



> FWIW, the governor's bonding proposal has a miniscule transportation component period, consisting almost entirely of block grants to local governments, and not much of that either. I can't count that as indicative of transportation policy, except perhaps to indicate that the state government doesn't think transportation of any sort is particularly important right now.


What could possibly be more indicative of public policy that where the money is being spent? You want to see what Minnesota is doing, look at the budget and the bonding bill. The lack of any state bonding for the future southwest LRT line is a far more important indicator for the future of rail in the state, I think, than anything anyone has said. Money matters. Talk doesn't.

This is with a DFL-controlled legislature, mind you. In 2011, when the Republican controlled both houses, their proposed budget cut state funding of Metro Transit by 84% and completely eliminated the tiny passenger rail budget in MnDOT.

That's the political reality in Minnesota: politicians run the gamut from indifferent to hostile.

Obligatory SPUD news: Megabus is moving its St. Paul stop to Union Depot on Wednesday.


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## Nathanael (Jan 27, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> I've never seen any proof that Minnesotans in general, and those of Edina in particular,


Edina seems particularly passenger-rail-hostile, being the home of the "Don't even talk about the Dan Patch corridor" law. That bit of extremism ticked off a number of other legislators, though. You don't have to lose your seat in the legislature to lose your *committee chairmanship*, which is what I expect will happen eventually; possibly simply to go to a different committee.
Unless Minnesota has a system which particularly entrenches committee chairmen, but I didn't think it did last I checked.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 28, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > I've never seen any proof that Minnesotans in general, and those of Edina in particular,
> ...


Who did it tick off? What did they do about it? The Dan Patch moratorium (Laws of Minnesota 2002, chapter 393, section 85) is still law, and its biggest supporters still chair the house tax and transportation committees. It's nice to have fantasies about pro-rail legislators, but that's not the reality. No one in the Minnesota state house is willing to work seriously for intercity passenger rail. The present crew are at best indifferent, and the other party is actively hostile.

It isn't as though the people are crying out for it, either.

Say, what happened to the January 27th announcement about Amtrak service to St. Paul Union Depot? Delayed again? What a surprise!


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## TraneMan (Feb 4, 2014)

Asked SPUD on FB where's the announcement about the Empire Builder showing up..



> Jay, As you may have heard BNSF, one of our partner railroads, has been challenged this winter with weather and other issues. In order for Amtrak to enter Union Depot, BNSF must complete some work. We were notified late last week that we would have more information from BNSF on February 10. We will post a notice here on Facebook, send media notices and let our train enthusiast friends know as soon as we do.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2014)

I found this website on the Amtrak site:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1251624275780

It says tentative for March 8, I won't be surprised if that gets moved back though.


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## Joe F (Feb 4, 2014)

I've noticed that the new signals for the station tracks at the west end of the plant are now operational. They are easily visible from the Lafayette Bridge.


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## Nathanael (Feb 4, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> Who did it tick off? What did they do about it?


It ticked off the other DFL legislators south of the Twin Cities.
They passed a repeal in the Senate, and they introduced one in the House, which was sunk specifically by the jackass Edina chair of the House transportation committee. They intend to get it passed this year, and are collecting support.

The House transportation committee chair is making *enemies* in the legislature. He's not going to last forever. Eventually the conference is going to figure out how to toss him, and there is an active caucus organizing to do exactly that. It may take a few years.


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## Nathanael (Feb 4, 2014)

In NY, of course, it would be damn near impossible to remove a committee chairman, because of our "special" legislative procedure rules, but everything I remember about Minnesota legislative procedure says it's not really that hard.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 4, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > Who did it tick off? What did they do about it?
> ...


Who are these enemies? What are their names? Who is in this caucus of which you speak? Where are the legislative advocates for passenger rail?


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## Nathanael (Feb 4, 2014)

Google it yourself, I was digging up articles for several hours and I didn't archive them all. It may not be many people yet.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 4, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> Google it yourself, I was digging up articles for several hours and I didn't archive them all. It may not be many people yet.


The person making the claim should prove it. I've provided cites for my claims, and I don't need to google the Minnesota Legislature. I live here, and I know what goes on.

In any case, your last sentence indicates that you agree that there isn't any significant pro-rail caucus in the Minnesota Legislature. I wish it were otherwise, but I prefer to see things the way they are. Facts, as the saying goes, are stubborn things.


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## Nathanael (Feb 5, 2014)

The Dan Patch anti-discussion bill was definitely perceived as an unreasonable overreach by legislators from south of the Twin Cities, they're organizing support in the legislature for that perception, and they're determined to get it repealed. And they've already passed the repeal through the State Senate. That's what comes out very clearly from the articles I found. Find 'em yourself, you can Google.

What this means, long term, is that the transportation committee chair is a marked man -- marked as unreasonable, and therefore prone to being isolated -- unless he agrees to repeal it. I wouldn't call this a strong pro-rail caucus, but everything I've seen of legislatures (and I've been following them for decades) says that unless the chair has a more powerful patron (a governor, for instance) he'll either acquiesce or be maneuvered out of position eventually.

At which point cheap rail improvements will start to be built just like they are in all other states which aren't run by crazy people. I'm not expecting anything grand.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2014)

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1251624275780

Well a few weeks ago the Amtrak exhibit train was supposed to come to St. Paul on March 8 which I'm guessing was the day they had targeted for the first Amtrak train into the station. Now on this website St. Paul isn't even listed anymore. What a disappointment how much this has been delayed.


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## Nathanael (Feb 19, 2014)

Guest said:


> What a disappointment how much this has been delayed.


Most recent reason for delays is BNSF moving all its crews out to deal with the mess on the tracks through North Dakota. :-( I can't be sure, but it looks like UP and CP have done their portion of the work and everyone is just waiting for BNSF to finish its portion.


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## Ispolkom (Feb 19, 2014)

I stopped by the Midway depot today to pay for a ticket (I had a travel certificate from last November's no-working-toilet Lakeshore Limited debacle). I asked the agent if he knew when Amtrak was moving to SPUD. "Every month they push it back. I have no idea," was his answer.

I've gone back to betting that the Green Line will open first. In June. For those keeping score at home, that will be more than a year and a half after St. Paul Union Depot "opened."


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## Blackwolf (Feb 19, 2014)

Looks like Denver won this round, and it's a knock-out. Maybe SPUD can beat out the opening of the Denver commuter lines still?


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## Nathanael (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm still betting we'll see action at the end of March or start of April, though largely because RCRRA has a contract with "first quarter" in it. From what we can tell all that's left is for BNSF to do its part of the signalling work. Which BNSF has little excuse for delaying after the snow melts. And which should only take a couple of weeks once they actually *start* it. BNSF is paying dearly in customer and government dissatisfaction right now for its meltdown, so it has an incentive not to tick off another local government.

If anyone sees BNSF signal maintainers in the area, then we'll know stuff is happening...


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## WICT106 (Feb 20, 2014)

I'm looking forward to using SPUD when I travel to see my niece graduate from the University, but only time will tell.


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## trainman74 (Feb 20, 2014)

WICT106 said:


> I'm looking forward to using SPUD when I travel to see my niece graduate from the University, but only time will tell.


Assuming she's in kindergarten now, you just might have a chance!


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## jebr (Feb 20, 2014)

trainman74 said:


> WICT106 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm looking forward to using SPUD when I travel to see my niece graduate from the University, but only time will tell.
> ...


Nah, she can graduate now. Just need to arrive on Jefferson Lines or Megabus! 

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## Ispolkom (Feb 20, 2014)

jebr said:


> trainman74 said:
> 
> 
> > WICT106 said:
> ...


Or the #54 city bus from MSP.


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