# a few “technical” questions



## USGrant (Dec 28, 2010)

Hello everyone I’m a new member here and have never been on Amtrak

I have a few “technical” questions I’m looking to get answered.


 



Is there a standard or maximum height for bi-level rail cars?



Are bi-level cars accessible to all routes in the Continental USA? I thought I read somewhere that on certain east coast routs routes bi-level cars didn’t meet the old heights of certain bridges or something so they were not used on certain routes.


 



Can a private company start a private scheduled passenger rail service and run passenger trails or is this strictly limited to private charter service? Meaning could someone open a passenger train route if they had the money?


 



When traveling over another rail companies lines what is the going rate per mile for rail car?


 



Does Amtrak have their own specific rails that are owned by Amtrak or are the rails actually owned by like UP?


 



Can you use your own engine if you own your own private rail cars and still use Amtrak rails or do your private cars have to be hooked up to an Amtrak train?


 



What company manufactured the California Amtrak engines and rail cars?


 



What does a NEW bi-rail passenger car cost complete ready to roll out of the factory?


 



I have many more questions but that is enough for now, thank you..




USGrant


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## Ryan (Dec 28, 2010)

_1. It depends on the route that you want to run on. MARC operates bi-level cars that will fit through the tunnels in Baltimore but won't fit through the tunnels in New York. NJT operates bilevels that will fit through both. Amtrak's Superliners won't fit through either._

_ _

_2. Sure, but it'd be one heck of a lot of money._

_ _

_3. No clue here - the fees that Amtrak charges to pull a private car behind one of its trains are published on their website._

_ _

_4. Yes, Amtrak owns most, but not all of the tracks on the Northeast Corridor (WAS-BOS). They also own track in Michigan._

_ _

_5. You can, but it'll cost you. _

_ _

_6. Alstom made the cars. EMD made most of their locomotives._

_ _

_7. The Superliner II cars cost a little over $2 Million in the early '90's. Not sure what they would cost today._


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## USGrant (Dec 28, 2010)

Ryan said:


> _1. It depends on the route that you want to run on. MARC operates bi-level cars that will fit through the tunnels in Baltimore but won't fit through the tunnels in New York. NJT operates bilevels that will fit through both. Amtrak's Superliners won't fit through either._
> 
> _ _
> 
> ...



Ryan thank you for the answers,

I am really surprised the super liners will not fit through the tunnels on the East cost, is this a large route that prevents these super lines from running on?


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## Ryan (Dec 28, 2010)

_I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask, but the Superliners also won't fit under the catenary or many of the bridges on that route - they weren't designed to be used on the East Coast._


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## USGrant (Dec 28, 2010)

Ryan said:


> _I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask, but the Superliners also won't fit under the catenary or many of the bridges on that route - they weren't designed to be used on the East Coast._


I’m new to all this and trying to learn why certain things are as they are.

That amazes me that the super liners don’t fit on the east coast routes due to height limitations, I would think Amtrak would be working on a solution as bi-level cars seem to be so much more practical than single level cars


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## USGrant (Dec 28, 2010)

Ryan thanks for the answers, let me elaborate on a few questions I have based on your responses, and invite others to chime in.

You said



> _ Sure, but it'd be one heck of a lot of money._


Was that in response to my question:

_Can a private company start a private scheduled passenger rail service and run passenger trails or is this strictly limited to private charter service? Meaning could someone open a passenger train route if they had the money?_

If so why then is Amtrak the only passenger rail service in the USA? I would think someone would start up a route that would be a more profitable one along a certain route that was nice and well traveled


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## AlanB (Dec 28, 2010)

USGrant said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > _I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask, but the Superliners also won't fit under the catenary or many of the bridges on that route - they weren't designed to be used on the East Coast._
> ...


Unfortunately the only solution would be to replace 10 existing tunnels that are in the neighborhood of 100 years old. The Superliner cars are simply too tall to fit through those tunnels. And attempt to run one through would destroy the car(s) and heavily damage the tunnels. Shorter bi-level cars are not possible, as you would no longer have room for luggage in the overhead racks and in the sleeping cars you would have to eliminate the upper bunk. There's barely enough space right now for the upper bunk.

Even if if you did fix the tunnel problem, then as Ryan noted you have issues with the catenary being too low which would cause it to short out on the metal roofs of the cars. Additionally in most cases, the only platforms are high level platforms. The Superliner car's doors are way too low. You'd have to jump up about 3 feet to get off the train. And there is no easy way to fix that problem, without losing space currently in use.


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## AlanB (Dec 28, 2010)

USGrant said:


> If so why then is Amtrak the only passenger rail service in the USA? I would think someone would start up a route that would be a more profitable one along a certain route that was nice and well traveled


Amtrak is the only inter-city passenger rail service in the US. Many cities and states run commuter rail services.

And the reason that no one else runs services is that it's not possible to make a profit. Since we subsidize the competition, namely roads & planes, rail cannot make enough money competing against the other forms and it always requires subsidies.


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## USGrant (Dec 28, 2010)

any idea how much the EMD California Engines cost new?


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## USGrant (Dec 28, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Unfortunately the only solution would be to replace 10 existing tunnels that are in the neighborhood of 100 years old. The Superliner cars are simply too tall to fit through those tunnels. And attempt to run one through would destroy the car(s) and heavily damage the tunnels. Shorter bi-level cars are not possible, as you would no longer have room for luggage in the overhead racks and in the sleeping cars you would have to eliminate the upper bunk. There's barely enough space right now for the upper bunk.
> 
> Even if if you did fix the tunnel problem, then as Ryan noted you have issues with the catenary being too low which would cause it to short out on the metal roofs of the cars. Additionally in most cases, the only platforms are high level platforms. The Superliner car's doors are way too low. You'd have to jump up about 3 feet to get off the train. And there is no easy way to fix that problem, without losing space currently in use.


Alan

I am doing a great deal of research and have been learning a lot. I notice there are many differences such as low platforms where these bi-level cars have the low doors and in the east all the platforms seemed raised so there is a huge issue there

I just think the bi-level cars were much more practice in terms of the space they provide

I’m trying to find the inner dimensions or ceiling heights in these new Super Liner bi-level cars on both levels


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## USGrant (Dec 28, 2010)

AlanB said:


> USGrant said:
> 
> 
> > If so why then is Amtrak the only passenger rail service in the USA? I would think someone would start up a route that would be a more profitable one along a certain route that was nice and well traveled
> ...



I think part of the entire problem with passenger rail is the marketing and the missed market niche. Amtrak has a bad reputation in the way most people think of them, their cars don't look nice or vry inviting but rather commercial and plastic for cheap high volume.

Second when most people think of Elegant passenger rail they think of old folks on excursion .. there doesn't seem to be a business class with super nice amenities such as laptop connections, wifi etc.. or am I missing that


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## George Harris (Dec 29, 2010)

Most of Amtrak's trains run on tracks owned by others. There are six major railrad companies operating in the United States, two of which are primarily Canadian companies with a US component. These are CSX and Norfolk Southern (NS) in the Eastern US and Union Pacific (UP) and BNSF in the western US. All these are mergers of multiple smaller companies. Canadian National and Canadian Pacific both have trackage in the center of the country. There are also lines owned by short lines and commuter authorities that host some Amtrak trains.

Here is a partial breakdown of which lines host which Amtrak routes.

Amtrak owns Boston - New York - Washington DC, plus a short section in Michican.

The California Zephyr: UP: California and Denver. BNSF: Denver to Chicago

Coast Starlight: Metrolink: Los Angeles to Santa Barbara? UP: Santa Barbara to Portland OR BNSF: Portland to Seattle.

Southwest Limited: BNSF

Sunset Limited: UP: Los Angeles to Iowa Jct LA (near Lake Charles LA) BNSF: Iowa Jct to just short of New Orleans, NOPB into New Orleans.

Los Angeles to San Diego: BNSF, Metrolink and the San Diego commuter authority

San Joaquin trains: UP from Oakland to a junction east of Martinez, BNSF the rest of the way.

Capital Corridor trains (California): UP

City of New Orleans: Canadian National - ex Illinois Central

Empire Builder: Canadian Pacific - ex Milwaukee: Chicago to Minneapolis, BNSF the rest of the way.

Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City: UP

Norteast to Florida Trains: Amtrak owned tracks New York to Washington DC, CSX the rest of the way

Crescent: NY to DC: Amtrak, DC to Alex., VA, CSX, the rest of the way to New Orleans: NS

North Carolina trains: NS

Capitol Limited: DC to Cleveland: CSX Cleveland to Chicago NS

Lake Shore Limited: NYC to Cleveland: CSX Cleveland to Chicago NS

Texas Eagle: UP except for Ft, Worth TX to Temple TX which is BNSF

Note to others: corrections appreciated.

Station ownership is all over the map. Some are still railroad owned, some by local agencies, some by the town they are in, some by Amtrak itself.

Standard passenger cars

The standard American passenger car is 85'-0" over couplers. That length has been standard since the beginning of manufacture of streamlined equipment in the 1930's. Also standard is a body length of 82'-6" and truck centers of 59'-6" The bi-level commuter cars used in San Francisco and a few other places are an exception to this, having 64' truck centers.

The standard width for most coaches is 10 feet. For the streamlined cars built from the 1930's through the last of these constructed in the early 1960's the height of a single level car was 13'-6" The Superliner cars are 16'-2" high.

For comparison, most freight cars have height limits of 15'-6" to 17'-0" Autoracks are higher, and double stack containers may be up to 20 feet above the top of rail.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 29, 2010)

Amtrak also owns the New Haven to Springfield, Mass., line and the Philadelphia to Harrisburg route of the Keystones, also with short patches to track at large stations such as Chicago and New Orleans.

Amtrak also operates over commuter authorities' trackage include Metro North in the New York City area and Metra in the Chicago area.


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## MattW (Dec 29, 2010)

George Harris said:


> Amtrak owns Boston - New York - Washington DC, plus a short section in Michican.
> 
> Crescent: NY to DC: Amtrak, DC to Alex., VA, CSX, the rest of the way to New Orleans: NS


Just a few quick corrections. I believe Metro North owns the line between New York and New Haven, and Massachusetts DoT owns the line between Providence and Boston, but Amtrak operates the latter segment.

Also, the Crescent operates mostly on Norfolk Southern trackage. I know it's on a brief segment of CSX just after it leaves the Capitol tunnels, but I don't know where it changes over (unless that's NS too), but I do know it's Norfolk Southern on most of its run starting way up in Virginia.


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## USGrant (Dec 29, 2010)

George, thank you for your detailed information on rail car routes and specifications and overall sizes of each car however I have another question.

On single level rail cars of old such as the old Pullman’s what was the interior height from interior floor to the ceiling. Meaning if a person was standing in the observation deck of a car what is the actual interior height of the car.

The same question goes to the super bi-levels on each level.

I hate to assume anything as we all know where they gets us but I would figure the interior height of an old single level rail car might be as high as 8 feet while a super liner might be able to get by with a max or just under 7 feet on each level.

I found a really good PDF of a layout for the new super liners and have been trying to find the interior heights but so far haven’t stumbled upon them as of yet.

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/PRIIA%20BiLevel%20Spec%20305%20001%20Approved%20Initial%20Release.pdf

Anyone is invited to answer this question about on the interior height dimensions


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## USGrant (Dec 29, 2010)

Oh another question for everyone,

Is New York, New Jersey and those lines in that area the only ones where the Super Liners are not able to run? Or is it in other areas up and down the East coast as well?

The reason I ask is let’s say I want to charter a Superliner I want to know where I specifically can NOT go with such a rail car.


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## Ryan (Dec 29, 2010)

_Pretty much anywhere between Washington DC and Boston, also from Albany down to New York._

_ _

_It's probably an academic question, as Amtrak probably doesn't have any Superliners available to charter._


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## USGrant (Dec 29, 2010)

Ryan said:


> _Pretty much anywhere between Washington DC and Boston, also from Albany down to New York._
> 
> _ _
> 
> _It's probably an academic question, as Amtrak probably doesn't have any Superliners available to charter._



Well I was asking as a general question in terms of let’s say a Superliner was to become available for charter, or an older unit was being sold off and was acquired by a private rail owner and they might want to know where they can run it along the lines.

Are there no rail lines in upstate New York for such cars at all? And what about getting into DC for another city such as though Virgina, I know Virgina has bi-level cars on their Virginia Railway Express but am I to understand that is as far as you can go (DC)?


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## USGrant (Dec 29, 2010)

BTW I really appreciate all the great and informative responses so far... here's a real wealth of information here for new members like myself


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## Ryan (Dec 29, 2010)

_Gotcha - you can go across upstate New York on the line from Buffalo - Albany - Boston in a Superliner. You can also get into DC from the south on a Superliner (and then leave DC going north on the route of the Capitol Limited. You may even be able to leave DC and get to Baltimore (Camden Station) on the route of MARC's Brunswick line._


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## USGrant (Dec 29, 2010)

Ryan said:


> _Gotcha - you can go across upstate New York on the line from Buffalo - Albany - Boston in a Superliner. You can also get into DC from the south on a Superliner (and then leave DC going north on the route of the Capitol Limited. You may even be able to leave DC and get to Baltimore (Camden Station) on the route of MARC's Brunswick line._


Bu pretty much everywhere else is open to the tall superlines such as the entire state of Florida, Georgia and the rest of the USA?


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## Ryan (Dec 29, 2010)

_Pretty much, yeah._


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## USGrant (Dec 29, 2010)

that's good then..

Do you have any idea how much one engine on the California Amtrak costs?


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## George Harris (Dec 29, 2010)

MattW said:


> Also, the Crescent operates mostly on Norfolk Southern trackage. I know it's on a brief segment of CSX just after it leaves the Capitol tunnels, but I don't know where it changes over (unless that's NS too), but I do know it's Norfolk Southern on most of its run starting way up in Virginia.


Even though the Southern Railway (NS predecessor for the recent into this stuff) milepost zero is at Washington Union Station, ownnership of main track begins at milepost 9.1, whihc is beyond Alexandria VA, which is at milepost 8.2. The entire Crescent route after that point is on NS trackage, with 2 exceptions: the Birmingham station is the ex L&N station, so for a mile or so in Birmingham the Crescent again operates on CSX tracks. In New Orleans, the last several miles are on the tracks of the NOPB (New Orleans Public Belt), and I think a couple miles of CSX just before getting on NOPB tracks. (Or maybe it was that the old L&N (CSX) east passenger trains ran on a mile or so of Southern (NS) trackage. I don't remember which without digging out the information.)


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## USGrant (Dec 29, 2010)

so many routes and rails to keep up with..

Its my understanding charter trains or other such trains that operate over tracks not owned by the train operator often pay something per mile and per car... anyone know how that works? I mean with all these different tracks being owned by different companies how does it work?


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## jis (Dec 30, 2010)

MattW said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak owns Boston - New York - Washington DC, plus a short section in Michican.
> ...


It is CSX from CP Virginia just outside the Capitol hill tunnel to CP AF south of Alexandria VA but north of Van Dorn, near Cameron's Run. The Crescent, the Cardinal and the Lynchburg Regional switch over from CSX to NS at CP AF, and then on usual routing cross under the CSX (ex-RF&P) Richmond Line at Cameron's Run.


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## USGrant (Jan 1, 2011)

Do / can super liners fit into either station in New Yourk? Pen Station or into Grand Central Terminal ?


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## AlanB (Jan 1, 2011)

USGrant said:


> Do / can super liners fit into either station in New Yourk? Pen Station or into Grand Central Terminal ?


Nope; the approach tunnels to either station would rip the roofs right off the cars.


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## GG-1 (Jan 1, 2011)

AlanB said:


> USGrant said:
> 
> 
> > Do / can super liners fit into either station in New York? Pen Station or into Grand Central Terminal ?
> ...


Alan, at the moment, I can't find the drawing I have of the tunnels to Penn Station but I think I remember the dimensions giving 3 inch clearance above a dome car. I also remember from somewhere the pans on a "G" required a "lock" or "Unlock" to prevent them from leaving the wire due to the low clearance in the tunnels. Are Supper liners higher than dome cars? If not they would fit without ripping off the roof but sparks would sure fly due to the catenary closeness.

Aloha

Eric


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## USGrant (Jan 4, 2011)

Thanks for the information and the help in all the questions

Ive been researching the Dome Cars and those super dome cars they have now that are all glass made by Raider seem very flimsy or not as well build as say the superliners of days of old, what are the opinions of the members here n these new ultra dome cars


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## PerRock (Jan 4, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> Amtrak also operates over commuter authorities' trackage include Metro North in the New York City area and Metra in the Chicago area.


Most Metra lines are owned & Run by a host railroad. I believe either UP or BNSF.

peter


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## John Bredin (Jan 5, 2011)

PerRock said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak also operates over commuter authorities' trackage include Metro North in the New York City area and Metra in the Chicago area.
> ...


Depends on what you mean by "most". Three Metra routes are owned and operated by UP, and one by BNSF, and they are key routes. But Metra directly operates all the other routes: Milwaukee North and West, North Central, Heritage, Southwest, Rock Island, and the Electric. As I recall, Metra owns and maintains the tracks on the Milwaukee, Rock Island, and Electric routes and is operating on freight-railroad tracks on the other routes.

Thus, to *MikeFromCrete*'s point, the Hiawathas and Empire Builder use Metra tracks as far as Rondout, the Chicago-Galesburg-beyond trains use BNSF tracks alongside Metra-branded BNSF trains as far as Aurora, the Chicago-St. Louis-beyond trains use CN tracks alongside Metra trains as far as Joliet, and the Chicago-Carbondale-beyond trains use CN tracks that share a right-of-way with separate Metra tracks. All these routes have shared Amtrak-Metra stations, with the nitpicky exception that at Homewood the Metra Electric and Amtrak stations are separate but directly adjoining


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## Trogdor (Jan 5, 2011)

To add another to the list, the Cardinal/Hoosier State (and, when running on detour, the Texas Eagle) share the route of the Metra Southwest Service, which operates on NS tracks from 21st Street to CP 518 (about 40th Street), then on Metra-owned tracks to 74th Street. I think Metra may own the rest of the SWS line, but Amtrak branches off there back onto the NS (and then onto the Belt Railway of Chicago, UP, CN, and finally CSX). There are no station stops on that segment, however.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> Alan, at the moment, I can't find the drawing I have of the tunnels to Penn Station but I think I remember the dimensions giving 3 inch clearance above a dome car.


Depends on the height of the Dome Car. The tallest car that can get through the tunnels without shorting out the catenary is 14'6" tall. To go through the North River tunnels the ends of the roof-line need to be tapered as found on the NJT MLVs.


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## had8ley (Jan 5, 2011)

Several years ago there was a tourist/freight line in upstate New York called the Adirondack Railway.I don't even know if it exists anymore but it covered a lot of the old NYC branch lines in upstate NY. Their money woes were of the worst magnitude. A friend and co-worker went three months without a pay check working there one summer when he was cut off at our RR. I think the two main subjects you need to tackle are the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) pertaining to passenger operations and realistic money costs to run even a one car excursion train. You will be amazed at the obstacles you'll need to overcome that are contained in the CFR before you can even turn a wheel.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2011)

had8ley said:


> Several years ago there was a tourist/freight line in upstate New York called the Adirondack Railway.I don't even know if it exists anymore but it covered a lot of the old NYC branch lines in upstate NY. Their money woes were of the worst magnitude. A friend and co-worker went three months without a pay check working there one summer when he was cut off at our RR. I think the two main subjects you need to tackle are the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) pertaining to passenger operations and realistic money costs to run even a one car excursion train. You will be amazed at the obstacles you'll need to overcome that are contained in the CFR before you can even turn a wheel.


If you are talking of the Adirondack Scenic out of Utica to Thendara in the direction of Lake Placid, then it is still in operation and they have actually cleared some more track beyond Thendara the last I heard. I believe they were running some trips from Saranac Lake to Lake Placid in 2010, in addition to the Utica - Thendara runs.


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## AlanB (Jan 6, 2011)

jis said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > Several years ago there was a tourist/freight line in upstate New York called the Adirondack Railway.I don't even know if it exists anymore but it covered a lot of the old NYC branch lines in upstate NY. Their money woes were of the worst magnitude. A friend and co-worker went three months without a pay check working there one summer when he was cut off at our RR. I think the two main subjects you need to tackle are the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) pertaining to passenger operations and realistic money costs to run even a one car excursion train. You will be amazed at the obstacles you'll need to overcome that are contained in the CFR before you can even turn a wheel.
> ...


I did the Lake Placid to Saranac run in September 2009 and AFAIK it is still running during the summers and certain major holidays outside that summer window. There continues to be talk about fixing up the tracks enough to get from Saranac Lake over to Big Tupper, the next town south & west of Saranac and one step closer to restoring the entire line to normal working service down to Utica.

The entire line is technically passable, that's how they got the train set up to the Placid area, but its in such bad shape that any equipment moves take the better part of the day as they have to precede the train with a hi-rail vehicle and the train basically moves at walking speed between Saranac and Thendora.

One thing that the southern end has going for it however, is a direct connection to Amtrak at Utica and therefore the dream remains of one day actually providing regularly scheduled passenger service from Utica to Placid and the Olympic Region.


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 6, 2011)

John Bredin said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


I was thinking of the Hiwathas/Empire Builder since they run on Metra-owned tracks (i.e. Milwaukee North) from Rondout to Union Station. The other trains run on railroad-owned routes, with the Heritage Route trains running on the CN Chicago-Joliet line as trackage rights. Metra Electric is completely separate from the CN-owned route of the CONO, Saluki and Illini. I think the only connection between the two is at Kensington, where the South Shore crosses over the CN at grade to get to Metra Electric.

Metra's operations are much bigger than the UP/BNSF routes, although those are among the busiest lines.


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