# dixieland train crash guthrie ky 1957 or so



## oldschoolbiker

hello

i was on this train when it wrecked. wonder if any others are around. i was 9 yrs old and traveling

alone. there was a serviceman in uniform that took me under his wing until we got to fla. often wondered about him as we didnt get his name he just disapeared after we got to fla and he met my mom. could tell

lots about the crash.

oldschoolbiker

got on train in terre haute in grampa tipped the red cap to watch out for me, think he got hurt


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## the_traveler

I have moved this thread, as it does not specifically pertain to Amtrak. In 1957, there was not even an Amtrak - each railroad operated their own passenger trains!


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## CHamilton

A Google search for "guthrie ky train crash" turned up several entries for a more recent crash. Here's one from the NRHS Western Kentucky chapter. http://www.westkentu...g/archives/1793

You might want to contact the author of the article, as he is likely to know more details.


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## George Harris

Terre Haute to Florida, 1957, at Guthrie KY. The train has to be the Dixieland, formerly and for most of its life named the Dixie Flagler. It was train number 99 where you caught it on the C&EI, but 11 on the L&N where it wrecked. It operating over the Chicago and Eastern Illinois, (on whose tracks it was when you caught it), Louisville and Nashville; Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Louis; Atlanta, Birmingham and Coast; and Atlantic Coast Line.

Go to Eric H. Bowen's wonderful Streamliners Schedules web page. The specific page is

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/dixieflag194106.html

This was one of a trio of every third day Chicago to Florida trains operating at that time. The schedule in Mr. Bowen's web site, which was from June 1941, shows a Terre Haute departure of 11:45am, so you should have left Terre Haute somewhere just short of noon, since these trains always had a morning departure from Chicago and ran on a roughly 24 hour schedule to Jacksonville.

The accident report can be found in a web site having the ICC railroad accident reports. The particular report is found under the 1957 heading and the second under the Louisville and Nashville Railroad llist. It is accident report number 3762. The date of the accident is June 29, 1957 at 4:45pm.

Here are a few points of information from the report:



> Accident at Guthrie, Ky., on June 29, 1957, caused by failure to operate the Louisville Division train in accordance with signal indications.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> On June 29, 1957, there was a side collision between a passenger train on the Evansville Division and a freight train on the Louisville Division of the Louisville and Nashville Railroad at Guthrie, Ky., which resulted in the death of 3 passengers, 1 train-service employee, 2 dining-car employees, and the injury of 12 passengers, 1 train-service employee, and 8 dining-car employees.


The line on which the Dixieland was operating ran more or less northwest to southeast between Evansville KY and Nashville TN. The timetable direction was southbound The line on which the freight train that struck it was operating ran more or less northeast to southwest between Bowling Green KY and Memphis TN. The timetable direction was also southbound. Note: This condition of two tracks defined as running in the same direction crossing each other was not a cause of confusion, as ti is a very common occurance in the railroad world, both then and now.



> Description of Accident
> No. 11, a south-bound first-class passenger train, consisted of diesel-electric units 604 and 612, coupled in multiple-unit control, one dormitory-baggage car, two sleeping cars, one dining car, one tavern car, one sleeping car, and six coaches, n the order named. These cars were of lightweight construction and were equipped with tightlock couplers. This train departed from Evansville, Ind., 109.4 miles north of Guthrie, of 2:48 p.m., 3 minutes late, passed Henderson at 3:08 p.m., 5 minutes late, passed signals 2171, and 3R, which indicated Proceed, and while moving over the intersection at Guthrie at a speed of approximately 35 miles per hour the side of the first car was struck by No. 121.
> 
> No. 121, a south-bound second-class freight train, . . . moving at a speed of about 6 miles per hour it struck the side of the first car of No. 11.


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## Swadian Hardcore

That consist is interesting and especially the low speed of the colliding trains. At least we have had much less train-on-train accidents over the years but more and more with road vehicles.


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## George Harris

Swadian Hardcore said:


> That consist is interesting and especially the low speed of the colliding trains. At least we have had much less train-on-train accidents over the years but more and more with road vehicles.


I did not copy this out of the accident report:



> The maximum authorized speed for the passenger train was 70 miles per hour, but it was restricted to 35 miles per hour throughout the interlocking. The maximum authorized speed for the freight train was 45 miles per hour.


The 70 mph limit for passenger trains was standard for the Evansville - Nashville line on which the Dixieland was operating. The 35 mph limit, which was the speed of the train at the time of the accident was a speed restriction across the diamond at Guthrie. The freight train was facing a stop signal. It obviously did not stop in time despite having good visibility of the signal. Why it did not approach and stop as it should was not satisfactorily determined..


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## trainman74

Found a brief story about the wreck here, on the front page of the St. Petersburg Times for June 30, 1957 (halfway down in the far left column). The best detail is that the mayor of Guthrie was also an undertaker.


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## George Harris

trainman74 said:


> The best detail is that the mayor of Guthrie was also an undertaker.


Not that uncommon in towns that size. Usually the two people known by everybody fairly well in the town would be the doctor and the undertaker. The doctor usually had neither the time nor the interest for politics and the undertaker had both. In the 1950's and earlier, the hearse usually doubled as the ambulance, as well, or if not the same vehicle was the same type of vehicle and operated by the undertaker.


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## Bill Haithcoat

I am surprised I just now discovered this. This is right up my alley.

That is because the Dixieland, originally called the Dixie Flagler, and the Georgian were my all time faves. They were an integral part of my childhood. I grew up in Chattanooga which is between Nashville and Atlanta.

I have referred to this train many times on this board but usually keep it simple and call it the Dixie FLagler, its long time name.

It was discontinued in late November of the same year of the wreck, 1957. That is sad because it had just been re equipped in December 1954, same time the name was changed from Dixie FLagler to Dixieland.

I was well aware of this accident, it has not been forgotten. However I have nothing to add to the info given..

Somebody mentioned the consist. That was a typical summer consist for the major trains which went from Chicago to Miami. Due to the snowbirds, such trains as this usually had several additional sleepers in the winter time.


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## jphjaxfl

It would be interesting to know why the Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) was discontinued while the South Wind and City of Miami went from every 3rd day to every other day to pick up the slack. The Southland Limited which was a heavyweight train from Cincinnati through Atlanta to both coasts of Florida with through cars from Chicago, Detroit and Cleveland was also discontinued around that time. It left the Southwind, City of Miami, the Seminole and the Dixie Flyer as the only through Midwest to Florida trains. I suppose more people were flying than going by train.


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## Palmland

Thanks Bill for pointing me to this thread. As a young boy I was making my first solo trip to visit relatives about 12 miles down the track from Guthrie. My train was L&N's No. 103. It was a connection off the Pan American with cars, including mine, from Cincinnati to Memphis. The accident occurred just a short time before our scheduled arrival. We pulled into the long siding at Guthrie next to the freight and short of the crossing (which of course had been destroyed in the wreck). A frantic grandmother, with help from the Clarksville ticket agent, rescued me from the stranded train. Among the wreckage I caught a glimpse of the burned and destroyed dining car where the impact (and fatalities) occurred. Fortunately it was before meal time so no passengers were killed but the crew was not so fortunate. You can imagine my parents' concern back in Delaware who heard the news on TV. But for a 12 year old, it was just an adventure.


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## Bill Haithcoat

jphjaxfl said:


> It would be interesting to know why the Dixieland (former Dixie Flagler) was discontinued while the South Wind and City of Miami went from every 3rd day to every other day to pick up the slack. The Southland Limited which was a heavyweight train from Cincinnati through Atlanta to both coasts of Florida with through cars from Chicago, Detroit and Cleveland was also discontinued around that time. It left the Southwind, City of Miami, the Seminole and the Dixie Flyer as the only through Midwest to Florida trains. I suppose more people were flying than going by train.


I suspect the Flagler lost business by not receiving a full complement of streamlined winter sleepers as soon as the South Wind and City of Miami did. I think it was the winter season 1949/50 that these streamlined coach trains got sleepers. They were mostly heavyweight at first though the trains themselves were still advertised as streamliners for historical reasons.

The City and the South Wind got new sleepers soon whereas the Dixie Flagler did not get full streamlined sleepers until the winter 1954/55 which is when it was also renamed the Dixieland. During the same 1950-54 years the City and the Wind even operated more frequently than every third day during the winter. Such things as two days out of three or every other day. The Flagler only needed to do that one winter, the winter before the other two got streamlined sleepers.

When the Dixieland was discontinued that did mean the City and the Wind became every other day from then on. As pointed out. the west coast cars of the Southland were discontinued though connections and or thru cars exchanged with the Dixie Flyer in Atlanta continued longer.

At the same time the City and the South Wind added coaches and pullmans from Chicago to St. Pete and from Chicago to Tampa/Sarasota. The South Wind inherited the almost new Dixieland equipment, thus sprucing it up.. Not long after this they both added dome cars from Chicago to Miami.

In truth it can be said that much happened to improve the City of Miami and the South Wind. But at the expense of the old Dixie Flyer. Dixieland, Dixie Flagler and Georgian (to Atlanta)we lost a valuable link from Chicago to Florida via Atlanta we need so badly today..


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## George Harris

Here is what I get by a fairly quick addition in an old Official Guide for Chicago to Jacksonville milage:

1088 miles - Dixie Flagler

1128 miles - City of Miami

1193 miles - South Wind

By the way, the only common points on these lines was Nashville on the Dixie Flagler and South Wind and Waycross on the Dixie Flagler and City of Miami. The originated at different stations in Chcago, the South Wind and City of Miami stopped at different stations in both Birmingham and Waycross.

Even though the Dixie Flagler was the shortest it may have been more difficult for it to keep schedule than the other trains. Nashville to Atlanta was cross grain to the Appalachians, and the AB&C line between Atlanta and Waycross was somewhat of a secondary line. I do not know what the C&EI speed limit was, but the limit on the L&N adn NC&StL was nowhere more than 79 mph, and a lot of it was less.

The South Wind was the longest and not as fast in many parts as the City of Miami route. The major dificult portions of the South Wind route would have been south of Montgomery. At the time we are discussing, the Pennsylvania was a strong promoter of this train. Don't know the Chicago to Louisville speed limits. The L&N was 70 mph maximum and much of Louisville to Montgomery was on reasonably good alignment. Nashville to Calera was rebuilt in 1912 to be either new line (Brentwood to north Athens AL) or double track. The ACL portion was unsignaled, but was/is fairly straight in southern Alabama dn Georgia.

The City of Miami got off to a blazing start thanks to the very fast ICRR main in Illinois, including some 100 mph territory. It slowed down quite a bit south of Jackson, Tenn. particularly in northern Alabama, again by running on lines that were cross grain to the Appalachians. As a contrast, in the 1960's the CofM had a scheduled dwell time in Birmingham of 30 minutes while that of the South Wind was only 10 minutes.

Of these lines, only the tracks used by the Dixie Flagler are all still in place and are major main lines. That is also part of the problem, as these lines are pushing capacity with freight.

Those lines used by the South Wind are all still in place sotuh of Louisvill KY, but not in condition to run as fast a schedule as in the 1950's and early 60's.

Lare chunks fo the City of Miami route south of Fulton KY are either downgraded or not there at all.


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## Bill Haithcoat

George Harris said:


> Here is what I get by a fairly quick addition in an old Official Guide for Chicago to Jacksonville milage:
> 
> 1088 miles - Dixie Flagler
> 
> 1128 miles - City of Miami
> 
> 1193 miles - South Wind
> 
> By the way, the only common points on these lines was Nashville on the Dixie Flagler and South Wind and Waycross on the Dixie Flagler and City of Miami. The originated at different stations in Chcago, the South Wind and City of Miami stopped at different stations in both Birmingham and Waycross.
> 
> Even though the Dixie Flagler was the shortest it may have been more difficult for it to keep schedule than the other trains. Nashville to Atlanta was cross grain to the Appalachians, and the AB&C line between Atlanta and Waycross was somewhat of a secondary line. I do not know what the C&EI speed limit was, but the limit on the L&N adn NC&StL was nowhere more than 79 mph, and a lot of it was less.
> 
> The South Wind was the longest and not as fast in many parts as the City of Miami route. The major dificult portions of the South Wind route would have been south of Montgomery. At the time we are discussing, the Pennsylvania was a strong promoter of this train. Don't know the Chicago to Louisville speed limits. The L&N was 70 mph maximum and much of Louisville to Montgomery was on reasonably good alignment. Nashville to Calera was rebuilt in 1912 to be either new line (Brentwood to north Athens AL) or double track. The ACL portion was unsignaled, but was/is fairly straight in southern Alabama dn Georgia.
> 
> The City of Miami got off to a blazing start thanks to the very fast ICRR main in Illinois, including some 100 mph territory. It slowed down quite a bit south of Jackson, Tenn. particularly in northern Alabama, again by running on lines that were cross grain to the Appalachians. As a contrast, in the 1960's the CofM had a scheduled dwell time in Birmingham of 30 minutes while that of the South Wind was only 10 minutes.
> 
> Of these lines, only the tracks used by the Dixie Flagler are all still in place and are major main lines. That is also part of the problem, as these lines are pushing capacity with freight.
> 
> Those lines used by the South Wind are all still in place sotuh of Louisvill KY, but not in condition to run as fast a schedule as in the 1950's and early 60's.
> 
> Lare chunks fo the City of Miami route south of Fulton KY are either downgraded or not there at all.


George. I was very young at the time but I hardly ever encountered lateness. But of course at that time I did not have access to good info and stats.

BTW, since all three of these trains went to Miami, what was the allowable speed on the FEC?


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## George Harris

Bill Haithcoat said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I get by a fairly quick addition in an old Official Guide for Chicago to Jacksonville milage:
> 
> 1088 miles - Dixie Flagler
> 
> 1128 miles - City of Miami
> 
> 1193 miles - South Wind
> 
> 
> 
> George. I was very young at the time but I hardly ever encountered lateness. But of course at that time I did not have access to good info and stats.
> 
> BTW, since all three of these trains went to Miami, what was the allowable speed on the FEC?
Click to expand...

I don't know the FEC speed limit. One handy source that sometime will give you that is to got to the ICC historica accident reports and pick the railroad name for the period of interest. Given that the FEC was essentially Jacksonville to Miami with little otherwise you would have a better chance if that had one in the time of interest. I have not looked.

Bill, my thought was that it was difficult to keep the schedule, not that it was not normal for it to be done. I well know that in that time frame keeping schedule was a top priority, and one where the series of speed limits in the timetable became suggestions rather than commands if need be. There was considerabe pride in the crews of these trains in keeping schedule and making up time if they got behind.

I spent my first two years of college at Martin TN, and the move of the City of Miami over the L&N (that is ex NC&StL for several of us) crossing could be heard all over town, Same for every train, as far as that is concerned. The speed limit over the diamond was 30 mph. Usually you could all but set your watch by it. If it was late, the rate of the clunk-clunk, clunk-clunk of the train over the diamond was usually at a faster rate than it would be if on time. Sometime, quite a bit faster. The mid winter version was normally 4 engines and 20 plus cars. I think the most was 24.


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## Swadian Hardcore

What was the Dixie Flyer? I know about the Seminole and stuff but never heard of the Dixie Flyer.


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## Bill Haithcoat

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What was the Dixie Flyer? I know about the Seminole and stuff but never heard of the Dixie Flyer.


It was one of the oldest Chicago to Florida trains around .though I am not sure when it was given that name. The early 1900s for sure .It ran mainly Chicago, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga,Atlanta, and Jacksonville. At some periods it had a sleeper or two to west coast Florida and to Miami and at times a sleeper from st. louis to points south The route from Atlanta to Jacksonville varied through the years.

It was a grand old train in the old steam , heavyweight, non air conditioned days.It was one of the first trains to be builtl of steel and have electric lights. It was never given streamliner status though in later years it did have some streamlined sleepers on it.

It was discontinued about 1969.

A typical consist in the mid or late 50s might be two or three coaches Chicago to Jacksonville ,a diner Evansville to Atlanta, a sleeper Chicago to Jacksonville.. and maybe some short haul sleepers like Atlanta to Jacksonville and Nashville to Chicago. And a lot of mail cars maybe 10 or 13 or more.

The reason I am being so approximate is because in the pre Amtrak days things changed around a lot more on train equipment than today so I am giving a loose answer.	Should you desire something more specific you might want to ask me a date.

Typical schedule might be to leave Chicago 10 pm and arrrive Jacksonville second morning about 6.

The Dixie Flyer was the train used by Al Capone on his way to the federal pen in Atlanta.

I suspect the much faster streamliners took away a lot of its business. That would be the Dixie Flagler in 1941 , renamed Dixieland in 1954 and the Georgian in 1946. For example, the Dixie Flagler/Dixieland was about 10 hours faster from Chicago to Jacksonville than the Dixie FLyer. Such variances were not uncommon in the preAmtrak days. The Flyer of course, stopped many more time plus had the headend mail business.

There was an original highway called the Dixie Highway and that figured into its name.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for the info! I thought the Dixie Highway was US Route 25 but some sources say it's US Route 41.


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## trainman74

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Thanks for the info! I thought the Dixie Highway was US Route 25 but some sources say it's US Route 41.


The original Dixie Highway routes are now covered by portions many different current highways -- stretches of U.S. 25 and U.S. 41 are only two of the successors. Here's an original map, as seen on Wikipedia:


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## George Harris

Thanks for the terrific map, Trainman. The part through East Tennessee I did not know. With most of the family in West Tennessee and the rest in the middle part of the state the section Louisville-Nasville-Chattanooga-At;amta,-Macon was the segment of route I knew.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Thanks for the map! Looks like it also had the current US Routes 1, 23, 27, 31 and some others I could not identify easily.


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## Bill Haithcoat

If anybody wanders what the word "Flagler" means in the name Dixie Flagler, just go to google and look up Henry Morrison Flagler and that will be interesting.

The Flagler at first just ran from Jacksonville to Miami and was called the Henry M. Flagler. That was about 1939. The following year it began running from Chicago to Miami and was renamed the Dixie Flagler. Then, as has been pointed out several times it was renamed the Dixieland in Dec 1954 and was dropped in 1957

The northern originater of these trains, the Chicago and Eastern RR, named several trains"Dixie"..

That would be the Dixie Flyer (already written about) and the Dixie Limited, a heavyweight a little faster than the Dixie Flyer.There had also been a use of the name Dixieland in a heavyweight winter only train, expiring about 1948

There had been trains named the Dixie Express and Dixie Mail but they went to the gulf coast rather than Florida.

Of some note is the Dixiana, perhaps the shortest lived train ever. It was put into service January 1942 and was discontinued about five trips later. That is because all the equipment was needed more for the troops than the for the snowbirds.

The C&EI had four streamliners which did not go to Florida and thus were not called Dixie. That would be the Georgian to Atlanta, the Humming Bird to New Orleans,the Meadowlark to southern Illinois and the Whippoorwil to Evansville.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Now you got me interested. What was the main difference between the Dixie Limited and the Dixie Flyer? And was the Dixieland kinda like a Chicago verson of the Orange Blossom Special?


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## Bill Haithcoat

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Now you got me interested. What was the main difference between the Dixie Limited and the Dixie Flyer? And was the Dixieland kinda like a Chicago verson of the Orange Blossom Special?


The Dixie Flyer and Dixie:Limited had very similar equipment. A tentative schedule would be to leave Chicago about 3 pm and get to Jacksonville next day about 9 pm Main difference is the Dixie limited disintegrated badly probably due to competition from the Georgian, I have a May 1949 NC&STL timetable.showing the DL leave Chicago 12.30 pm ar Atlanta next day at 9.55am. The Georgian left Chicago 4.15 pm arr Atlanta at 8.35 am

I was born in 1944 so by the time I got old enough to know what was what, early 50s. the Dixie Limited was just a nameless local and no through Chicago to Florida equipment. The Dixie Flyer lasted about 15 years later.

If by Dixieland you mean the heavyweight largely sleeper winter train, yes it would be similar to the Orange Blossom Special. If you meant the Dixieland involved in the wreck, no--. since it was a year round, streamliner with many coaches as well as sleepers.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now you got me interested. What was the main difference between the Dixie Limited and the Dixie Flyer? And was the Dixieland kinda like a Chicago verson of the Orange Blossom Special?
> 
> 
> 
> The Dixie Flyer and Dixie:Limited had very similar equipment. A tentative schedule would be to leave Chicago about 3 pm and get to Jacksonville next day about 9 pm Main difference is the Dixie limited disintegrated badly probably due to competition from the Georgian, I have a May 1949 NC&STL timetable.showing the DL leave Chicago 12.30 pm ar Atlanta next day at 9.55am. The Georgian left Chicago 4.15 pm arr Atlanta at 8.35 am
> 
> I was born in 1944 so by the time I got old enough to know what was what, early 50s. the Dixie Limited was just a nameless local and no through Chicago to Florida equipment. The Dixie Flyer lasted about 15 years later.
> 
> If by Dixieland you mean the heavyweight largely sleeper winter train, yes it would be similar to the Orange Blossom Special. If you meant the Dixieland involved in the wreck, no--. since it was a year round, streamliner with many coaches as well as sleepers.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information. Yeah, I meant the heavyweight winter train.


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## Harvey Versteeg

With another Lt friend from Fort Campbell, I followed a parade of emergency vehicles to Guthrie, KY in 1957 and came on the train wreck. I probably took photos but have not looked for them in years. As I remember it, a slow moving freight moving south, lost it's brakes on a slight grade and very slowly hit the left side of a fast moving eastbound passenger train. The locomotive struck the baggage car which flipped the engine sidewise. The rear end of the engine hit the dinning car. The engineer and some dinning car staff died. I walked past a stretcher with a long piece of raw meat hanging out from under the cover. The heavy rail crossing unit was moves several feet southeast and the edge of the concrete passenger platform was sheered off.

Recently I've been interested in seeing how accurate my memory was. Unfortunate the friend who was with me that day has died.


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## Harvey Versteeg

Greetings;

Since I wrote for info about the Guthrie. KY June, '57 wreck, that I saw very shortly after it happened, I've read the contents of this forum and answered most of my questions, except the two conflicting lists of casualties.

I used to ride the L & N between Detroit and Clarksville, TN while a Lt. with the 101st Airborne at Fort Campbell, KY (post gate in KY but mostly in TN)

My most memorial train ride was in August of 1953 home from Smokejumper Base, Missoula, MT to Detroit, MI. The ride from Missoula to Chicago was in a swivel chair lounge car on the Milwaukee line, but from Chicago to Detroit was on the NYC in a coach so old it still had arrows sticking out of the sides; no AC and caned benches.

My most spectacular was the White Pass and Yukon up the hill from Skagway, Alaska. When I was there in 1959 Skagway was a near ghost town but the RR ran all the way to Whitehorse. When I visited Skagway on a cruise 15 (?) years ago, it only ran to the top of the pass at the Canadian border and back down, but the town was a summer tourist ship mecca and you could not rent space in it. Interestingly the '98 gold rushers built it in 18 months with picks and dynamite. The modern highway connecting Skagway to the Alcan took 12 years to build with modern engineering and machinery. The trip from Haines to Skagway was 7 miles by seaplane in '59. It was 150 miles by highway in 2000.

I was proud of my first solo train ride in the late '40s. I rode the bus in to Detroit with my father who got off when the bus passed his workplace and I got off at the train station (now long empty), got on the train and transferred at Grand Rapids for Holland, MI where my grand parents met me. I was probably 8-10 (?) at the time. I also carried a puppy in a box as a present for my cousins. Several people on the train tried to buy it, but then my cousin's mother would not let the cousins have the puppy. And I kept humming the song on the radio at the time, "Sentimental Journey Home."

My brother in MI is a member of a group that owns a very large steam locomotive used for excursion trips. Some years back, he came to Maine to ride with us on the first passenger excursion train up the old tracks along the Kennebec River to Augusta. It ran a few times more in summers. Now we have regular multi-daily train service from Boston to Bath, ME. on AMTRAC. Too bad we don't have more RR passenger service. In the late 1800s you could reach nearly any part of Maine via train or trolley. I have an old map of Maine that looks like a highway map at first glance, but does not even show any highways. It only shows RRs & trolley lines covering the state. And that was not even showing the short line logging RRs that only ran from the logging areas to the nearest large lake or river.

Our first train ride on the new AMTRAC in the early '70s, with two small children, was a big disappointment. The train from Chicago missed two Boston connections at NY with only minutes to make the 3rd, and we had no way to tell my in-laws waiting to drive us up to Maine. On the return trip we got to Boston over an hour early and found our scheduled train did not take luggage. Luckily we were early enough to take an earlier train that did. The return to Chicago was over 4 hours late and the pick-up person there could not find out when we were due in. Our coach ran out of water and AC while the lunch car ran out of sandwiches. No wonder people shifted to airlines back before you had to spend an hour checking through security.

I ran history museums for 15 years and since that have done jobs for other museums. One was to do engineering drawings of the Lion, the oldest surviving steam locomotive in Maine. In measuring it in the state museum, to do the drawings, I was amazed at the complexity of the 1846, open platform 0-4-0 locomotive. I also found it interesting that even after restoration, the wooden frame was warped. It had two diagonally opposed high corners and two low corners by a couple of inches. I had to measure both sides and average the heights. If you are ever in the Maine State Museum, you will be faced by the Lion as you enter the lobby. Go around to the labels at the side and see my drawing.

Cheers,

Harvey Versteeg, [email protected]


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## George Harris

Copied from: http://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+3737)



> DATE: June 29, 1957
> RAILROAD: Louisville and Nashville
> 
> DIVISIONS: Evansville Louisville
> 
> LOCATION: Guthrie, Ky.
> 
> KIND OF ACCIDENT: Side collision
> 
> TRAIN INVOLVED: Passenger Freight
> 
> TRAIN NUMBERS: 11 121
> 
> LOCOMOTIVE NUMBERS: Diesel-electric units 604 Diesel-electric units 806, 703, and
> 
> and 612 812
> 
> CONSIST: 12 cars 30 cars, caboose
> 
> ESTIMATED SPEEDS: 35 m. p. h. 6 m. p. h.
> 
> OPERATION: Interlocking
> 
> TRACKS: Single; tangent; level Single; tangent; 0.70 percent
> 
> descending grade southward
> 
> WEATHER: Clear
> 
> TIME: 4:45 p.m.
> 
> CASUALTIES: 6 killed; 21 injured
> 
> CAUSE: Failure to operate Louisville Division train in accordance with signal indications
> 
> . . . .
> 
> This accident occurred within yard limits of the intersection of the Evansville and Louisville Divisions at Guthrie, Ky. In the vicinity of the point of accident south-bound trains by timetable directions move southeast on the Evansville Division and southwest on the Louisville Division by compass directions. Timetable directions are used in this report. The accident occurred on that part of the Evansville Division extending between Henderson, Ky., and Amgui, Tenn., 136.0 miles, and on that part of the Louisville Division extending between Louisville, Ky., and Paris, Tenn., 246.3 miles. Guthrie is 97.0 miles south of Henderson and 163.9 miles south of Louisville. The lines intersect at an angle of 86 degree 47'. At Guthrie, sidings parallel the main tracks of the Evansville and Louisville Divisions on the east and west, respectively. A highway crosses the tracks of the Louisville Division at grade. The center-line of the highway is located 1,563 feet north of the intersection. In the vicinity of the paint of accident the Evansville Division is a single-track line over which trains are operated by signal indications. The track is tangent throughout a distance of over 3 miles immediately north of the point of accident and a considerable distance southward. The guide is practically level at the paint of accident. In the vicinity of the point of accident the Louisville Division is a single-track line over which trains are operated by timetable and train orders. There is no block system in use. The track is tangent throughout a distance of over 1.5 miles immediately north of the point of accident and a considerable distance southward. The grade for south-bound trains is, successively, practically level 4,000 feet, a vertical curve 800 feet, 1.04 percent descending 500 feet, 1.18 percent descending 1,600 feet, and an average of 0.70 percent descending 400 feet to the point of accident.
> 
> Movements over the crossing are governed by interlocking signals. Semi-automatic signals 2171 and 3R, governing south-bound movements an the Evansville Division, are located, respectively, 1.28 miles and 162 feet north of the intersection. Automatic signal 1621 and semi-automatic signal IL., governing south-bound movements an the Louisville Division, are located, respectively, 1.38 miles and 200 feet north of the intersection.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> Description of Accident
> 
> No. 11, a south-bound first-class passenger train, consisted of diesel-electric units 604 and 612, coupled in multiple-unit control, one dormitory-baggage car, two sleeping cars, one dining car, one tavern car, one sleeping car, and six coaches, n the order named. These cars were of lightweight construction and were equipped with tightlock couplers. This train departed from Evansville, Ind., 109.4 miles north of Guthrie, of 2:48 p.m., 3 minutes late, passed Henderson at 3:08 p.m., 5 minutes late, passed signals 2171, and 3R, which indicated Proceed, and while moving over the intersection at Guthrie at a speed of approximately 35 miles per hour the side of the first car was struck by No. 121.
> 
> No. 121, a soul-bound second-class freight train, consisted of diesel-electric units 806, 703 and 812, coupled in multiple-unit control, 30 cars, and a caboose. This train departed from Strawberry Ky., 158.0 miles north of Guthrie, at 12:43 p.m., 3 hours 43 minutes late, departed from Russellville, Ky., the last open office, 20.2 miles north of Guthrie, at 4:23 p.m., 3 hours 26 minutes late, passed signal 1621, which indicated Prepare-to-stop-at-next-signal, passed signal IL., which indicated Stop, and while moving at a speed of about 6 miles per hour it struck the side of the first car of No. 11.
> 
> No. 11 stopped with the front end of the locomotive 678 feet south of the intersection. There were no separations between the units of the train. The first to the sixth cars, inclusive, and the front truck of the seventh car were derailed and stopped upright approximately in line and on the track structure. The fourth car was destroyed, the first and the fifth cars were badly damaged, the second, the third, and the sixth cars were considerably damaged, and the seventh car was slightly damaged. The first and second diesel-electric units of No. 121 were derailed and separations occurred between the units. The first unit stopped on its right side. The front and rear ends of this unit were, respectively, 98 feet and 147 feet south of the intersection, and 15 feet and 5.5 feet east of the Evansville Division main track. The front end of the second unit struck the side of the fourth car of No. 11. This unit stopped on its left side with the front end on the Evansville Division track structure and the rear end of the Louisville Division track structure. No other equipment of the train was derailed. The first and the second diesel-electric units were badly damaged and the third unit was slightly damaged.
> 
> The engineer of No. 121 was killed. The conductor of No. 11 was injured.
> 
> The weather was clear at the time of the accident, which occurred at 4:45 p.m.
> 
> The diesel-electric units of No. 121 were equipped with 24RL brake equipment. The regulatory devices were adjusted to maintain a maximum main reservoir pressure of 140 pounds and brake-pipe pressure of 90 pounds. The first unit of the locomotive was equipped with a speed-recording device but the device was not provided with a speed-recording tape.
> 
> Discussion
> 
> As No. 11 was approaching the point where the accident occurred the enginemen were in the control compartment of the first diesel-electric unit. The conductor was in the first car and the flagman was in the rear car. Signals 2171 and 3R indicated Proceed. The speed of the train was reduced to about 35 miles per hour to comply with the speed restriction at the interlocking. The engineer said that as the train approached the intersection he observed the operators at the station moving away from the track in a manner which indicated to him that something was wrong with the train. He initiated an emergency application of the brakes. The collision occurred immediately afterward. The fireman said that he observed No. 121 after it had passed signal IL. He estimated that the speed of that train was about 6 miles per hour when the collision occurred.
> 
> As No. 121 was approaching the point where the accident occurred the engineer, the fireman, and the front brakeman were in the control compartment of the first diesel-electric unit, and the conductor and the flagman were in the caboose. The fireman, who was promoted to the position of engineer on February 2, 1951, was operating the locomotive. The brakes of this train had been tested and no exceptions were taken to the condition of the brake equipment. No difficulty was experienced in controlling the speed of the train en route. Signal 1621 indicated Prepare-to-stop-at-next-signal. The fireman said that the speed of the train was about 55 miles per hour approaching the signal and that he initiated a service brake application before the train passed the signal. He said that he released the brakes when the speed of the train was reduced to about 25 miles per hour at a point approximately 600 feet south of the signal. The throttle was in No. 3 position at that time. As the train was approaching signal IL the fireman received instructions from the conductor by radio to stop the train at signal IL instead of the customary stopping point immediately north of the highway crossing. The conductor said that when switching operations were to be performed at Guthrie it was his practice to stop the train at signal IL provided the train was of such length that the rear of the train would be south of the highway after the train stopped. Signal IL can first be seen from the control compartment of a south-bound locomotive at a point 4,974 feet north of the signal. The fireman said that the signal indicated Stop. He said that he made an 8-pound brake-pipe reduction when the train was about 2,000 feet north of signal IL but the brakes did not appear to function properly, He estimated that the speed of the train was 25 miles per hour at that time. He said that when the train was about 1,200 feet north at the signal he applied the brakes in emergency, closed the throttle, and operated the sanding valve. The engineer called a warning o the fireman. The fireman and the brakeman alighted before the collision occurred. The fireman said that the speed of the train was about 8 miles per hour when the collision occurred. The brakeman said he thought that the brakes were applied in emergency at a point about 600 feet north of signal IL. He estimated that the speed of the train at that time was about 15 miles per hour and that it was reduced to about 6 miles per hour when the collision occurred. The conductor said he thought that the train was about 500 feet north of the signal when the brakes became applied in emergency and that the speed of the train at that time was about 15 miles per hour. The flagman said that he observed the brake-pipe gauge in the caboose after the fireman made the 8-pound brake-pipe reduction and it indicated that brake-pipe pressure was then between 70 and 75 pounds. He said that he was closely observing the location of the caboose in order to notify the engine crew by radio when the caboose was south of the highway crossing. He said that the brakes became applied in emergency when the rear of the train was about 800 feet north of the highway crossing. He estimated that the speed of the train at that time was about 15 miles per hour.
> 
> The statements of the members of the crew are conflicting regarding the speed and the location of the train at the time the brakes became applied in emergency. However, it is apparent from then statements that the fireman was mistaken and that the emergency brake application was made at a point nearer signal lb. than he estimated.
> 
> The broke cylinders and brake pipes of the first two diesel-electric units of No. 121 were damaged as a result of the accident. The undamaged brake equipment of the first unit was tested after plugging broken pipes and it was found to function properly. The control and relay valves of the second unit were removed and applied to another unit of the same type and were found to function properly. The brake equipment of the third unit functioned properly. The brake equipment of the cars of No. 121 was tested and it was found that the brakes of the ninth car were cut out, and that the brake-cylinder piston travel of seven cars and the caboose was excessive, measuring 10 inches or more. As a result, the brakes of only about 75 percent of the cars of the train were in proper condition at the time of the accident. Although no exceptions were taken when the brakes were tasted at Strawberry, it is apparent that the brakes of the ninth car were cut out and that excessive brake-cylinder piston travel existed at that time.
> 
> Under the rules of the carrier, after No. 121 passed signal 1621 it was required to be operated at medium speed and in such manner that the train could be stopped before passing signal IL.
> 
> Cause
> 
> This accident was caused by failure to operate the Louisville Division train in accordance with signal indications.
> 
> Dated at Washington, D. C., this twenty--second day of October, 1957.
> 
> By the Commission, Commissioner Tuggle.
> 
> (SEAL) HAROLD D. McCOY,


Given that this a 55 year old document and a govenment publication I would think it safe to quote large chunks of it.


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## james winders

This is very interesting, I stumbled across it while looking at train engines with my son. I was born in 1965 and have been in Guthrie since late 60s. As a child the big train wreck was big talk around here. I often played at what was left of the old depot which was nothing but concrete pads, sidewalk and handrails. The city of Guthrie is in the process of renovating on old building downtown which will be a railroad museum. It would be interesting if someone who was aactually a passenger happened to show up at our grand opening. I'd certainly like to meet you


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## railpost

Even though this is a relatively "old thread" I found it quite informative as I have had an interest in the Dixieland and Dixie Flagler through services to Florida for many years and I like several of you couldn't help but wonder why the Dixieland (alias Dixie Flagler) was discontinued so soon as it was using new equipment and was competive with the both the Southwind and the City of Miami which both lasted until Amtrak or in the case of the South Wind, shortly before Amtrak as about a year before Amtrak ,during 1970, the South Wind had lost its status as through Chicago to Florida Train and the portion of route from Chicago to Louisville had become a Chicago to Louisville train on the Penn Central where you would have to physically change both trains and railroads once you arrive in Louisville. 
When Amtrak started the Southwind route was chosen as their route from Chicago to Florida as it served more major cities and therefore more population Centers.


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