# Flexible dining - Requesting a review from a recent rider



## Ferroequinologist

I am planning a trip on the SW Chief to LA. I have had the flexible dining on the LS Limited. They offered a good cheese, cold meat platter but that seems to have disappeared and what I see on the current menu looks like a downgrade of the downgrade; it all looks really bad. I can't see a lunch menu. Is there just one menu for lunch and dinner? Could someone review the food. Thanks.


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## AmtrakFlyer

Traditional and (temporary/flex) menus are on the Amtrak website.

Under service changes at very top there’s a link to western trains flex, farther down on the page traditional menus are listed. It looks like a small improvement. The big negative to me is if your made to eat in your room even if entire diner is empty. 









Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com


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## Rasputin

It seems to me from most reports on the western long distance trains, sleeping car passengers have the option of eating in the dining car or in their rooms. However I have read that on the Lake Shore, the so-called sleeper lounge car is used only for picking up food and you are not allowed to eat there or lounge there. Corrections would be welcome.


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## crescent-zephyr

Rasputin said:


> It seems to me from most reports on the western long distance trains, sleeping car passengers have the option of eating in the dining car or in their rooms. However I have read that on the Lake Shore, the so-called sleeper lounge car is used only for picking up food and you are not allowed to eat there or lounge there. Corrections would be welcome.



It’s amtrak. The rules will vary from crew to crew.


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## chrsjrcj

Does the Lake Shore have the dining car (“sleeper lounge”) or just cafe? That could be the distinction.


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## Palmetto

Rasputin said:


> It seems to me from most reports on the western long distance trains, sleeping car passengers have the option of eating in the dining car or in their rooms. However I have read that on the Lake Shore, the so-called sleeper lounge car is used only for picking up food and you are not allowed to eat there or lounge there. Corrections would be welcome.




Correct. Amtrak's CEO, on the WAPO stream that ended about a half-hour ago stated that food may be consumed only at one's seat or in one's room.


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## Rasputin

Palmetto said:


> Correct. Amtrak's CEO, on the WAPO stream that ended about a half-hour ago stated that food may be consumed only at one's seat or in one's room.


Thanks for pointing that out. Of course just because the Amtrak CEO says something or the Amtrak website says something doesn't necessarily mean it will happen on the train.


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## crescent-zephyr

Rasputin said:


> Thanks for pointing that out. Of course just because the Amtrak CEO says something or the Amtrak website says something doesn't necessarily mean it will happen on the train.



Isn’t that the truth! I’m still waiting for my amenity kit that was promised!


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## NativeSon5859

I've been on all of these trains over the past month. Here's the scoop.

Sunset Limited - eat in diner or room (dining car attendant takes your order from your room in either case)
Crescent - eat in room only (sleeping car attendant takes order and delivers it)
Cardinal - you pick up the food in the lounge, must eat in your room
Empire Builder - eat in diner or room
Coast Starlight - eat in diner or room
California Zephyr - eat in diner or room
City of New Orleans #59 - dinner out of CHI, eat in room only, order taken by SCA. Other meals, eat in diner or room.


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## NativeSon5859

The food will be a subjective experience. I don't think it's bad, but I've no doubt others do. My latest trip was 8 nights... when I got to day 7, I was tired of the meals, but again, I've never taken Amtrak for the food. And being an introvert, I kind of like being able to get a whole table to myself in the diner. Of course I've had many enjoyable conversations in the diner over the years, but the community seating was always my least favorite part of the experience.


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## crescent-zephyr

@NativeSon5859 - which meal did you like the best / worst? 

I thought the shrimp and sausage bowl was ok. I thought the beef was way too salty and would never order it again.


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## NativeSon5859

crescent-zephyr said:


> @NativeSon5859 - which meal did you like the best / worst?
> 
> I thought the shrimp and sausage bowl was ok. I thought the beef was way too salty and would never order it again.



I only had the beef twice. Yeah, Not the best. My least fav, easily. I basically rotated between the shrimp/andouille, pasta with meatballs, and the spicy noodles. Until I got tired of them and went for lounge car junk food lol.


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## jiml

It's funny how the pasta and meatballs started as the kids' meal, but is the one that most complain about the least. I noted on the latest menu that it's now included with the others (not specifically called kids'). As someone who won't eat shrimp (love andouille though) I'd be ordering the pasta frequently.


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## Bob Dylan

I


jiml said:


> It's funny how the pasta and meatballs started as the kids' meal, but is the one that most complain about the least. I noted on the latest menu that it's now included with the others (not specifically called kids'). As someone who won't eat shrimp (love andouille though) I'd be ordering the pasta frequently.


I used to order the Hot Dog, ( really good when it was Nathan's on a Pretzel Bun)Mac n Cheese and the Pasta from the kids Meals often, especially for Lunch on Long trips for variety.

All were good, and it depended on the Server or LSA whether you could order it!

Also remember when you could order the Burgers and the Special Sandwich @ Dinner when available, I often did this when in Coach and paying for my meals!


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## DetroitDave

NativeSon5859 said:


> The food will be a subjective experience. I don't think it's bad, but I've no doubt others do. My latest trip was 8 nights... when I got to day 7, I was tired of the meals, but again, I've never taken Amtrak for the food. And being an introvert, I kind of like being able to get a whole table to myself in the diner. Of course I've had many enjoyable conversations in the diner over the years, but the community seating was always my least favorite part of the experience.



Thanks for your recent review of the food and noting the dining experience! I'll be on SWC and City/New Orleans later this year so I'm curious how the meals will...er...morph. 

I concur as far as being an introvert and can take/or/leave some of the dining aspects (but I have had great, rewarding conversations in dining once the ice was broken.)


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## Skyline

So long as some of us (different threads) are talking about re-inventing Amtrak, I want to vote for reducing sleeper fares by eliminating the automatic inclusion of food in the price. Give pax the option of paying for Amtrak-supplied food, or bringing their own food on board. Also, let coach pax have that same option; don't refuse them dining car service. 

I find Amtrak's food offerings to be edible, but it has gotten worse over the past few years. To the point of wanting to bring my own food, which I can prepare myself. So if that's my choice, why should I be also paying for Amtrak food as part of the sleeper fare?


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## Bob Dylan

Skyline said:


> So long as some of us (different threads) are talking about re-inventing Amtrak, I want to vote for reducing sleeper fares by eliminating the automatic inclusion of food in the price. Give pax the option of paying for Amtrak-supplied food, or bringing their own food on board. Also, let coach pax have that same option; don't refuse them dining car service.
> 
> I find Amtrak's food offerings to be edible, but it has gotten worse over the past few years. To the point of wanting to bring my own food, which I can prepare myself. So if that's my choice, why should I be also paying for Amtrak food as part of the sleeper fare?


That's the Traditional way going back to the start of Diners on Trains and during the early Amtrak days.


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## Devil's Advocate

Skyline said:


> So long as some of us (different threads) are talking about re-inventing Amtrak, I want to vote for reducing sleeper fares by eliminating the automatic inclusion of food in the price. Give pax the option of paying for Amtrak-supplied food, or bringing their own food on board. Also, let coach pax have that same option; don't refuse them dining car service. I find Amtrak's food offerings to be edible, but it has gotten worse over the past few years. To the point of wanting to bring my own food, which I can prepare myself. So if that's my choice, why should I be also paying for Amtrak food as part of the sleeper fare?


I see where you're coming from but I think the reality of the situation is that dining cars probably won't survive if meals are excluded from sleeper fares. If anything it will likely speed up their retirement. I doubt the separation of meals would result in a discount large enough to buy everything we need ourselves. I do agree that the current food is pretty bad but I'd prefer they improve the experience rather than simply paint the diner into a financial corner as they have. I don't need three meals sitting around all day but I will need at least one and would prefer something hot and tasty over something dry or drippy. Where I travel long distance trains move slowly and stations have few if any meal-related services, which makes dining cars on long haul trains more important than in other situations. We're not just speaking for ourselves when we offer to give up diners for everyone. Sure, we had our fun when times were good, but once these diners are gone they probably won't be coming back again for anyone else to enjoy.


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## Dakota 400

The Mac n' Cheese and the Hot Dog from the kids' menu were always good for lunch or even for a light dinner when I was still "full" from breakfast and lunch when Amtrak served good dining car meals.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> @NativeSon5859 - which meal did you like the best / worst?
> 
> I thought the shrimp and sausage bowl was ok. I thought the beef was way too salty and would never order it again.


So here's the deal with the Red Wine Braised Beef... sodium 2340 - a dangerous level for anyone with blood pressure issues. I am researching that meal and am preparing to post a review on one of the threads. See below the stats on this meal. BTW... having 'red wine' in the title is sure a misnomer. The meat was bland; some fatty, and the polenta was puddling into the watery broth. Did you actually notice a 'red wine flavor?' I've also added a youtube account of the 'flex meal experience' that really brings home the sentiment most feel.


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## TheCrescent

For dinner, I always got the Asian Noodle Bowl, but I see that's now gone. It was fine. 

The "specialty dessert" is nothing special: a bland brownie or a bland blondie, in the plastic wrapper.

Flexible Dining breakfast is terrible:

* No fresh fruit (due to Covid-19)
* Prepackaged oatmeal with hot water stirred in
* Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwich microwaved in the plastic wrapper
* Lots of attitude from the cafe car staff

I would bring my own food for breakfast.

At least the one free drink helps dull the hunger pangs.


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## railiner

Skyline said:


> So long as some of us (different threads) are talking about re-inventing Amtrak, I want to vote for reducing sleeper fares by eliminating the automatic inclusion of food in the price. Give pax the option of paying for Amtrak-supplied food, or bringing their own food on board. Also, let coach pax have that same option; don't refuse them dining car service.
> 
> I find Amtrak's food offerings to be edible, but it has gotten worse over the past few years. To the point of wanting to bring my own food, which I can prepare myself. So if that's my choice, why should I be also paying for Amtrak food as part of the sleeper fare?


While I have certainly had more than my fair share of good dining car meals thru the decades of Amtrak's existence, I now agree with pretty much all you say.
If they can not justify the traditional level of diner experience, I'd just as soon bring my own aboard, and not have to be at all concerned any longer with their trials and tribulations...


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## 20th Century Rider

I agree... it would be much nicer to have one's own food aboard... more control over quality and choice... and it's not as expensive as purchasing on board. I don't expect that would actually bring down the cost of the room... where's the Amtrak leadership? Perhaps with Amtrak Joe heading a new admin there may be hope and a future for passenger service!


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## me_little_me

TheCrescent said:


> * Prepackaged oatmeal with hot water stirred in
> .



That isn't the worst part. There is no choice to get plain oatmeal - just the pre-sugared junk food version. Their choice of breakfast isn't just awful, it's downright disgusting junk food.


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## 20th Century Rider

TheCrescent said:


> For dinner, I always got the Asian Noodle Bowl, but I see that's now gone. It was fine.
> 
> The "specialty dessert" is nothing special: a bland brownie or a bland blondie, in the plastic wrapper.
> 
> Flexible Dining breakfast is terrible:
> 
> * No fresh fruit (due to Covid-19)
> * Prepackaged oatmeal with hot water stirred in
> * Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwich microwaved in the plastic wrapper
> * Lots of attitude from the cafe car staff
> 
> I would bring my own food for breakfast.
> 
> At least the one free drink helps dull the hunger pangs.


Not right and totally institutionalized ... disconnected with the customer. The free enterprise way of doing things isn't supposed to be like this. The Flexible Dining breakfast is a sham as is this entire 'food service' concept on Amtrak. The energy for improvement and change needs to come from somewhere. We're all talking about the same thing!


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## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> The Mac n' Cheese and the Hot Dog from the kids' menu were always good for lunch or even for a light dinner when I was still "full" from breakfast and lunch when Amtrak served good dining car meals.


See my previous Post!


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## Swadian Hardcore

How are the new dishes on the West menu? https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...nus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-West-0720.pdf

Does anyone have nutrition facts on the ENCHILADAS, CHICKEN MARSALA, and SHRIMP IN LOBSTER SAUCE?

I'm of the opinion that Amtrak will use this opportunity to conveniently get rid of "Traditional Dining" for good. They might as well also remove the Diner and let folks get meals in the Sightseer (or use the Viewliner Diner on Eastern trains and remove the Cafe car). The Viewliner Diner could become the Sightseer for Eastern trains.


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## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> So here's the deal with the Red Wine Braised Beef... sodium 2340 - a dangerous level for anyone with blood pressure issues. I am researching that meal and am preparing to post a review on one of the threads. See below the stats on this meal. BTW... having 'red wine' in the title is sure a misnomer. The meat was bland; some fatty, and the polenta was puddling into the watery broth. Did you actually notice a 'red wine flavor?' I've also added a youtube account of the 'flex meal experience' that really brings home the sentiment most feel.


Thanks for posting that information and the youtube video. Sadly it makes me feel better about not travelling on Amtrak this year (and maybe not next year or the year after, etc.). It seems like Amtrak travel as we knew it is gone.


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## 20th Century Rider

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How are the new dishes on the West menu? https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...nus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-West-0720.pdf
> 
> Does anyone have nutrition facts on the ENCHILADAS, CHICKEN MARSALA, and SHRIMP IN LOBSTER SAUCE?
> 
> I'm of the opinion that Amtrak will use this opportunity to conveniently get rid of "Traditional Dining" for good. They might as well also remove the Diner and let folks get meals in the Sightseer (or use the Viewliner Diner on Eastern trains and remove the Cafe car). The Viewliner Diner could become the Sightseer for Eastern trains.



Aw c'mon... flex this and flex that... twirl it on your head or juggle it between your arms while going from car to car... it's all the same stuff... we all know it... it's desperately ridiculously inconsiderate to the traveler and we're all saying the same thing... 'not good!' OMG! This is my 250th post... sorry to have to waste this milestone of sorts on such unfortunate catastrophic cuisine clumsiness on the part of Amtrak's total disregard for it's patrons! 

If you wanna go by train, get a good loaf of rich wheat grain and seed bread, a jar of peanut butter, and a jar of really good strawberry jam, add some bon bell cheese, fruit, wine... and enjoy the view out the window! And be happy!

Flex dining is sooooo...
No Taste
No Texture
Small portion
Unsatisfying


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## Rasputin

With all these "bring-your-own-meals" suggestions, I can help but think of boarding a train, going to my roomette and accidently sitting on or putting my arm or hand on the leftover remnants of the meal preparation endeavor of the last passenger to occupy the room (or to find the leftover remnants under my seat). Not to mention the enhanced opportunity to encounter vermin.


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## jiml

Rasputin said:


> With all these "bring-your-own-meals" suggestions, I can help but think of boarding a train, going to my roomette and accidently sitting on or putting my arm or hand on the leftover remnants of the meal preparation endeavor of the last passenger to occupy the room (or to find the leftover remnants under my seat). Not to mention the enhanced opportunity to encounter vermin.


You're not wrong. Consider the condition of airline tray tables and seat areas pre-Covid when little or no cleaning was happening, multiplied by more food and drink. I've generally found Amtrak trains to be clean when boarding at the start of any route, however this cannot be said if you join the train mid-trip after your seat or sleeper space has been previously occupied. The bathrooms are another barometer of this.


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## OBS

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How are the new dishes on the West menu? https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...nus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-West-0720.pdf
> 
> Does anyone have nutrition facts on the ENCHILADAS, CHICKEN MARSALA, and SHRIMP IN LOBSTER SAUCE?
> 
> I'm of the opinion that Amtrak will use this opportunity to conveniently get rid of "Traditional Dining" for good. They might as well also remove the Diner and let folks get meals in the Sightseer (or use the Viewliner Diner on Eastern trains and remove the Cafe car). The Viewliner Diner could become the Sightseer for Eastern trains.


Welcome back!


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## 20th Century Rider

Rasputin said:


> With all these "bring-your-own-meals" suggestions, I can help but think of boarding a train, going to my roomette and accidently sitting on or putting my arm or hand on the leftover remnants of the meal preparation endeavor of the last passenger to occupy the room (or to find the leftover remnants under my seat). Not to mention the enhanced opportunity to encounter vermin.


Not to worry... the attendant is supposed to clean, vacuum, replace bedding, etc. That's part of the job description. When Amtrak was in it's infancy I took a trip in a roomette between St. Louis and San Antonio... as meals weren't included, These were the old roomettes where the facilities were in the room... leaving even more that needed to be serviced and cleaned. Everything was sparkling and squeaky clean when I entered.

Remember packing a really nice picnic supper of cold chicken, fresh veggies, fruit, and some cake. Really enjoyable memory from decades ago. There was complimentary coffee the next morning that went well with the leftover coffee cake. Even then when I was young and skinny, I skipped lunch cause just sitting there I didn't need it.

Folks have been doing this for a long time. And the attendants for the most part are conscientious and should take good care of you.


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## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> Not to worry... the attendant is supposed to clean, vacuum, replace bedding, etc. That's part of the job description.


Whenever I get ready to detrain and leave my roomette, I am in the habit of taking a flashlight (which I pack) and look under the seats to be sure that I have not forgotten something or that some of our belongings have not fallen on the floor and gone under the seat. I find that uniformly the results of this inspection are not encouraging. It is not what I would call clean and often there are water bottles and other debris left by a prior occupant. I have found clothing left behind in the overhead storage bin of viewliner roomettes when boarding at the originating station.


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## 20th Century Rider

Rasputin said:


> Whenever I get ready to detrain and leave my roomette, I am in the habit of taking a flashlight (which I pack) and look under the seats to be sure that I have not forgotten something or that some of our belongings have not fallen on the floor and gone under the seat. I find that uniformly the results of this inspection are not encouraging. It is not what I would call clean and often there are water bottles and other debris left by a prior occupant. I have found clothing left behind in the overhead storage bin of viewliner roomettes when boarding at the originating station.


Sadly I have to agree with you. The intention of the message above was to be optimistic and respectful to Amtrak and its staff, and perhaps a little compassionate as well. But such professionalism has been deteriorating in recent years as workers risk losing their jobs due to cutbacks. You are indeed correct in pointing out an overall failure of service, and I do become annoyed when I enter a dirty and messy roomette or bedroom. I have expressed my own frustration many times in posts regarding service, tipping, and expectations from Amtrak. We should expect more and we deserve better!


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## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> So here's the deal with the Red Wine Braised Beef... sodium 2340 - a dangerous level for anyone with blood pressure issues. I am researching that meal and am preparing to post a review on one of the threads. See below the stats on this meal. BTW... having 'red wine' in the title is sure a misnomer. The meat was bland; some fatty, and the polenta was puddling into the watery broth. Did you actually notice a 'red wine flavor?' I've also added a youtube account of the 'flex meal experience' that really brings home the sentiment most feel.
> View attachment 17897





The "presentation" of the breakfast items available shown in the video ought to make someone(s) in the hierarchy of Amtrak disgusted and embarrassed. 

When airlines served complimentary meals to Coach/Economy Class passengers, the meals were more attractively presented than what the video shows currently. Even when lunch or dinner was available in domestic First Class, the meals were more appetizing in appearance than what is now available.


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## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> The "presentation" of the breakfast items available shown in the video ought to make someone(s) in the hierarchy of Amtrak disgusted and embarrassed.
> 
> When airlines served complimentary meals to Coach/Economy Class passengers, the meals were more attractively presented than what the video shows currently. Even when lunch or dinner was available in domestic First Class, the meals were more appetizing in appearance than what is now available.


You are so right! But it all goes back to management... does anyone upstairs really care??? I feel sorry for Amtrak workers who get caught up in this diminishing service plan... important to have empathy and don't blame them... they are given little to work with and are just struggling to make a living. There have been many posts on the flex breakfasts... when what is offered is even less than the paltry printed menu; and did you notice... the hard boiled eggs which offered some semblance of actual protein have been removed? The 'hot sandwich' is another story... mostly fat and sodium. I saved mine after breakfast for a mid morning snack when riding on the Cardinal... it had congealed into mushy fat. Pitched it. Sad.


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## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> Even when lunch or dinner was available in domestic First Class, the meals were more appetizing in appearance than what is now available.



October 2019 Amtrak Sleeping Car on the way to New York City.

October 2019 Delta First Class on the way back from New York City.


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## Manny T

^OMG. That Black&White is a nice touch (Delta).

(My guess is the fares, Amtrak Sleeper vs. Delta First Class, were pretty comparable.........)


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## 20th Century Rider

TheCrescent said:


> For dinner, I always got the Asian Noodle Bowl, but I see that's now gone. It was fine.
> 
> The "specialty dessert" is nothing special: a bland brownie or a bland blondie, in the plastic wrapper.
> 
> Flexible Dining breakfast is terrible:
> 
> * No fresh fruit (due to Covid-19)
> * Prepackaged oatmeal with hot water stirred in
> * Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwich microwaved in the plastic wrapper
> * Lots of attitude from the cafe car staff
> 
> I would bring my own food for breakfast.
> 
> At least the one free drink helps dull the hunger pangs.



Oh my! But but but!!! Even in dire situations, a thoughtful and resourceful cafe car staff could have made at least in small part a better experience for you! This is exactly where there needs to be BETTER MANAGEMENT FROM THE TOP!


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> October 2019 Amtrak Sleeping Car on the way to New York City.
> 
> October 2019 Delta First Class on the way back from New York City.


Awesome post... such a comparison really brings home the point!


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## Swadian Hardcore

OBS said:


> Welcome back!



Thanks. Anyone got nutrition facts or reviews for the ENCHILADAS, CHICKEN MARSALA, or SHRIMP IN LOBSTER SAUCE yet?


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## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> October 2019 Amtrak Sleeping Car on the way to New York City.
> 
> October 2019 Delta First Class on the way back from New York City.



It was awhile ago, but on a Delta flight from Atlanta to San Juan in a DC-8 as a Coach passenger, we were served a good steak dinner. I was quite surprised when it was offered as an option for dinner.


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## crescent-zephyr

Manny T said:


> ^OMG. That Black&White is a nice touch (Delta).
> 
> (My guess is the fares, Amtrak Sleeper vs. Delta First Class, were pretty comparable.........)



Amtrak Roomette - $415
Delta $426


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## TheCrescent

Is the Crescent the only train on which Amtrak totally eliminated one meal?

On the last day of the trip when you’re heading north, the Crescent is scheduled to arrive in NYC at 1:46pm. Breakfast and lunch used to be served.

Now the only meal served is Flexible Dining Breakfast. Even if you sleep until 8am, that’s a long time for just breakfast.

I could gripe about the train being late and the sleeping car rooms that rattle and shake but I’ll comment only on the food, which is lacking.

I could also comment on the high ticket price, but I won’t.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Dakota 400 said:


> It was awhile ago, but on a Delta flight from Atlanta to San Juan in a DC-8 as a Coach passenger, we were served a good steak dinner. I was quite surprised when it was offered as an option for dinner.



If it was a DC-8, then it sure wasn't only "a while" ago!


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## 20th Century Rider

TheCrescent said:


> Is the Crescent the only train on which Amtrak totally eliminated one meal?
> 
> On the last day of the trip when you’re heading north, the Crescent is scheduled to arrive in NYC at 1:46pm. Breakfast and lunch used to be served.
> 
> Now the only meal served is Flexible Dining Breakfast. Even if you sleep until 8am, that’s a long time for just breakfast.
> 
> I could gripe about the train being late and the sleeping car rooms that rattle and shake but I’ll comment only on the food, which is lacking.
> 
> I could also comment on the high ticket price, but I won’t.


Same nonsense with the Capitol Limited that gets into WAS well after the lunch hour... and which is frequently late. The bits and pieces of that small 'continental breakfast' gotta hold you till they arrive well after lunch. Cheep cheep!


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## crescent-zephyr

TheCrescent said:


> On the last day of the trip when you’re heading north, the Crescent is scheduled to arrive in NYC at 1:46pm. Breakfast and lunch used to be served.



That’s a shame. I always thought it was fun to eat lunch in the diner while traveling at 100+ mph. Not many places you can do that


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## TheCrescent

Rasputin said:


> With all these "bring-your-own-meals" suggestions, I can help but think of boarding a train, going to my roomette and accidently sitting on or putting my arm or hand on the leftover remnants of the meal preparation endeavor of the last passenger to occupy the room (or to find the leftover remnants under my seat). Not to mention the enhanced opportunity to encounter vermin.



I have found leftovers from Flexible Dining dinner in the luggage storage area in my sleeping car room.

And I was so hungry after Flexible Dining dinner that I ate the leftovers (brownies still in plastic wrappers).


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## Rasputin

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s a shame. I always thought it was fun to eat lunch in the diner while traveling at 100+ mph. Not many places you can do that


That is true. I always enjoyed lunch on the northbound Crescent. Even when many items would be sold out and the selection was limited, it was still a pleasant meal.

They are making trains not worth riding. It is 1967-70 all over again.


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## Rasputin

TheCrescent said:


> I have found leftovers from Flexible Dining dinner in the luggage storage area in my sleeping car room.
> 
> And I was so hungry after Flexible Dining dinner that I ate the leftovers (brownies still in plastic wrappers).


They must have been placed there by the Flexible Dining Fairy. If you leave a quarter under your pillow at night you might get more.


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## OlympianHiawatha

Dakota 400 said:


> It was awhile ago, but on a Delta flight from Atlanta to San Juan in a DC-8 as a Coach passenger, we were served a good steak dinner. I was quite surprised when it was offered as an option for dinner.


Getting to fly on an 8 itself would be worth the run!


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## OlympianHiawatha

The previous pics and video have sure turned me off on the slop Amtrak is now trying to swill out as meals. I'd rather fly and do better with airport concourse chow; some of which is pretty good!


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## crescent-zephyr

OlympianHiawatha said:


> The previous pics and video have sure turned me off on the slop Amtrak is now trying to swill out as meals. I'd rather fly and do better with airport concourse chow; some of which is pretty good!



To be fair, I still enjoyed my trip on Amtrak with contemporary dining. I can put up with it for 1 night. I actually think it’s ok for trains like the lake shore that would typically only serve dinner and then a real quick breakfast before arriving in Chicago. But even trains like the crescent and silvers that’s several lackluster meals in a row... once you get to multiple days it’s just not right but here we are


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## me_little_me

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Does anyone have nutrition facts on the ENCHILADAS, CHICKEN MARSALA, and SHRIMP IN LOBSTER SAUCE?


High fructose corn syrup, salt, sugar, salt, fat, salt, filler, leached plastic, micro-plastic particles from packaging, soylent green, The Blob, and a little protein all slopped together. Anything else you want to know? 

Oh yeah! Forgot. Microwave radiation residue. Helps you see the stuff when it is dark.

Nutrition, taste? Nah! It might encourage people to take the train.

Note, in a blind taste test, customers could not identify which meal was which but then again, Amtrak doesn't have a lot of blind people traveling and they would probably legitimately complain that it was discrimination to be fed slop. On the other hand, Amtrak is encouraging sight-impaired people to travel since they don't have to look at it.

Yes, I know there's no microwave radiation but it's would be nice having something healthy in the meals. The radiation would at least kill any Covid you have.


----------



## me_little_me

Rasputin said:


> They must have been placed there by the Flexible Dining Fairy. If you leave a quarter under your pillow at night you might get more.


And if you leave a penny, you get more of the full meal!


----------



## Nick Farr

That's the Red Wine Braised Beef with pearl onions, carrots and mushrooms served with Polenta and Haricot Vert.

The Beef was not awful, but still incredibly salty and definitely not even close to the old grill prepared meat options. But it was cooked all the way through, no cold spots or detectable uneven temperatures.

The veggies held up surprisingly well, the carrots being the most flavorful part. They had the taste and texture of broth boiled carrots, definitely an unexpected highlight.

The polenta was too salty and quite rubbery around the edges. That was probably the least palatable part, but I didn't mind finishing it.




I opted for dinner in my roomette. Instead of taking a reservation, a dining car attendant came by my room to take my order. It came in a bag at the promised time. The presentation was nice, I was delighted to have two coffees (presumably since you'd get a refill in the cafe car).




The dinner roll was actually nice and warm and felt like a good touch.

The salad was fresh and crisp, iceberg lettuce, small salad tomatoes and some carrot shavings. Only complaint is that the salad dressing packets are for salads twice that size.

For Dessert, only two choices: Brownie or Cookie. Fortunately it was a Sweet Street brownie that, while packaged, was actually the most flavorful part of the meal.

This is not the same food quality as the old cafe car, obviously. Whereas the old cafe car might be Applebee's but down a nudge, my take is Flex Dining is TV Dinners bumped up a nudge. 

Now looking forward to Breakfast in Denver!


----------



## Skyline

railiner said:


> While I have certainly had more than my fair share of good dining car meals thru the decades of Amtrak's existence, I now agree with pretty much all you say.
> If they can not justify the traditional level of diner experience, I'd just as soon bring my own aboard, and not have to be at all concerned any longer with their trials and tribulations...




If Amtrak is hearing any of this, enough to take action, the reduction in the extra cost of a sleeper must be significant enough to actually matter. Accounting tricks that produce only a nominal reduction must not be tolerated by Congressional overseers, passenger rail advocates, nor the public. 

I realize this may make it easier for certain bean counters to advocate for the removal of sleepers altogether. RPA must be ready, in advance, to refute any such arguments with facts. And once exposed, such political subterfuge must be strongly resisted for being inaccurate and offensive. Reducing fares, and allowing sleeper pax choices can only help ridership as Amtrak seeks to recover from downturns related to the C-19 pandemic.


----------



## Skyline

Devil's Advocate said:


> I see where you're coming from but I think the reality of the situation is that dining cars probably won't survive if meals are excluded from sleeper fares. If anything it will likely speed up their retirement. I doubt the separation of meals would result in a discount large enough to buy everything we need ourselves. I do agree that the current food is pretty bad but I'd prefer they improve the experience rather than simply paint the diner into a financial corner as they have. I don't need three meals sitting around all day but I will need at least one and would prefer something hot and tasty over something dry or drippy. Where I travel long distance trains move slowly and stations have few if any meal-related services, which makes dining cars on long haul trains more important than in other situations. We're not just speaking for ourselves when we offer to give up diners for everyone. Sure, we had our fun when times were good, but once these diners are gone they probably won't be coming back again for anyone else to enjoy.




I agree, many smaller stations do not have adequate food resources inside them or within easy walking distance. The answer, for myself and surely others, would be to bring food that is prepared at home or purchased in stores in advance of travel. If you don't have the means to prepare travel-friendly food at home, there are plenty of prepackaged, dehydrated meals that are being sold today -- more than ever thanks to the pandemic -- that only require the addition of hot or cold water and enough time to rehydrate. You can get quite creative with these, with practice, adding spices or other ingredients to your liking; even supplementing with salads or desserts. Quality varies, but for $8-$15 you can have such a meal that is healthy and satisfying.

By opening up diners to coach pax once again, any drop in sleeper pax choosing to provide their own meals should be made up by coach pax who would like to once again enjoy occasional diner food.


----------



## Nick Farr

Oh: No fresh fruit. The only fresh option appears to be the side salad.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

How sad this all is. We understand the pandemic... but the new normal full LD dining service BEFORE the pandemic was deteriorating and it is wondered where this is all going. Here's a YouTube video from just 6 years ago... notice the fresh flowers on the dining table. Enjoyable to watch! Dining on the train - done right and truly justifying the passenger train experience; warning: this may frustrate some!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Skyline said:


> I agree, many smaller stations do not have adequate food resources inside them or within easy walking distance. The answer, for myself and surely others, would be to bring food that is prepared at home or purchased in stores in advance of travel. If you don't have the means to prepare travel-friendly food at home, there are plenty of prepackaged, dehydrated meals that are being sold today -- more than ever thanks to the pandemic -- that only require the addition of hot or cold water and enough time to rehydrate. You can get quite creative with these, with practice, adding spices or other ingredients to your liking; even supplementing with salads or desserts. Quality varies, but for $8-$15 you can have such a meal that is healthy and satisfying. By opening up diners to coach pax once again, any drop in sleeper pax choosing to provide their own meals should be made up by coach pax who would like to once again enjoy occasional diner food.



I'm glad you found a solution that works for you but no further change is needed to make use of these suggestions. Sleeper passengers can bring food from home and coach passengers can eat in the diner (on Western trains). You said you believe a non-trivial discount would come from separating meals from sleeper tickets but outside of the unique circumstances of the Silver Star none of the prior reductions has resulted in substantial savings. Even as service has fallen prices have risen. It is my belief that separating meals from sleeper tickets would put our dining cars in greater jeopardy, likely impacting sleeper and coach passengers alike, while those who bring their own food would see no meaningful discount. Once the diners are gone they will likely never return, and that is not a legacy I want to leave for those who come after me.


----------



## Nick Farr

Breakfast! They seemed pretty generous with the options and for packaged foods, they were pretty high quality.

The oatmeal was actually one of the best packaged oatmeals I've had. Yes, on the sweet side but they seem to have perfected the water ratio and it was warm (not piping hot) when I got it. I prefer it that way, but I know that may be an issue for some.

The lounge car sells Chobani Blueberry Greek Yogurt, but we had the option for the Yoplait Greek Blueberry as well. It was served mildly chilled.




The muffin was a standard packaged muffin. 

Any questions? I'm here until tomorrow!

Greets from Granby.


----------



## Nick Farr

I also want to affirm that I'm still taking Amtrak LD sleepers regardless of the food options. The view itself is worth fasting for.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> The view itself is worth fasting for.



Since you’re on the zephyr I really can’t argue... the big 10 curves leading into the Rockies are my favorite piece of railroading.


----------



## joelkfla

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17918
> 
> 
> The dinner roll was actually nice and warm and felt like a good touch.


Did they give any butter for it?


----------



## me_little_me

joelkfla said:


> Did they give any butter for it?


Oh stop! The fares are only going up 7%! You think Amtrak can afford butter too? Some people are just SO greedy. You got that wonderful flex dining and all those new room amenities and you still want more?





__





Good & Bad News


Quick spot checks of one Eastern and one Western LD train at the start of the fourth fiscal quarter show Coach fares remain unchanged but. . . . . .Sleeper fares have gone up about 7%.




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> all those new room amenities and you still want more?



Which never appeared! Lol.


----------



## Dakota 400

Swadian Hardcore said:


> If it was a DC-8, then it sure wasn't only "a while" ago!
> [/QUOTE
> 
> 1986
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Getting to fly on an 8 itself would be worth the run!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was and I think that is one reason why I remember it. Up to that time, I had not flown on such a large plane. I am questioning my memory as to whether it was Delta or Eastern. (I now think it was Eastern.) It was from MIA to SJU. Home bound flight was on American from ACA to DFW with a connection to CMH which we missed. Had an overnight stay at Dallas with hotel and meals paid for by AA and ended up at DCA. The homebound flights were not nearly as pleasant as the flights to San Juan.
Click to expand...


----------



## Nick Farr

This is the the Asian Noodle Bowl:

"Yaki Soba noodles with carrots, edamame, red peppers, baby corn, scallions and Shiitake mushrooms in a garlic-chili sauce."

The noodles were pretty good, but annoyingly sticky in the manner many straight instant noodles are. It was hard to gather a reasonable bite without going to the knife.

Unfortunately, the sauce was more like an orange sauce than anything else with just a hint of heat and no perceptible garlic flavor. The sweetness of it overpowered everything except for a few hints of mushroom and baby corn that emerged unscathed. Also you'll notice the celery substitution for the red peppers, of which I barely noticed any. 




The warmed up toffee crunch brownie was the highlight. It has that preservative-like spongy crumble to it but otherwise a very well balanced dessert with nice chocolate chips and very flavorful toffee bits.

Side salad was great and fresh as usual.

Note: Coffee is no longer available in the mornings in the sleeper cars. You have to go to the dining car and wait for an attendant.


----------



## Nick Farr

joelkfla said:


> Did they give any butter for it?



No, but I didn't ask either. I said I didn't want forks or napkins or additional packaging, so they may have left it off.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

FOOD REVIEW - Flex Dining Entree: “Red Wine Braised Beef.” 
This comprehensive review is personal evaluation with a quality scale,… others may have differing opinions.
(NUMERICAL WEIGHTING: 1-poor - unacceptable / 5-reasonable - pleasant / 10-outstanding uniqueness - quality)

PRESENTATION CATEGORIES
title and/or labeling “1”
Value perception, portions, side dishes “1”
Temperature, and doneness “4”
Taste, seasoning, sauces/condiments “1”
Plate ware or packaging “0” - unsafe*
Timing and other service factors “9”

EATING EXPERIENCE WITH NUMERICAL WEIGHTING - This dish rates as “1” from scale below
10 - indulgent and pleasurable / uniquely different and experiential qualitative tastes and textures / generously quantitative
5 - pleasant, satisfying, and familiar; but not different or unusual; adequately qualitative and quantitative
1 - monotonous and left with the desire of wanting something else that is more pleasing, quantitative, and qualitative

HEALTH, SAFETY, AND ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS - Rates as “0” not recommended*
Fat, salt, and sugar content / component nutritional value / processing components
Overall cleanliness and preparation safety / Recycling of eating ware, and food waste

REVIEW: Title of dish misleading; the quality and taste of the beef does not match ‘Red Wine Braising.’ 8 oz portion of all components inappropriately small for a dinner; the salad is inadequately small. The heat dissipates rapidly to lukewarm but the food is definitely done. The taste is bland and the texture is mushy; needs more seasoning and spices for flavor enhancement although some may enjoy bland dishes that are easy to chew. The oil, sodium, and sugar content can make this food hard to digest for some. Plate ware and packaging of plastics is poor quality. The name of ‘flex’ to describe this cuisine is true to its name because it is light and easily portable in the plastic tray. Many sites describe the properties of the plastic used in the Amtrak Flex Meal plate as dangerous when heated.*

*Plastic #1 Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET, PETE or Polyester) From Town of Truckee CA recycling website:
“Several studies have shown that antimony leaches from this kind of plastic, and some suggest that the leaching may even reach dangerous levels. To avoid risk of exposure, you should never microwave plastic #1 or leave it in hot places. Heat triggers the antimony to leach from the plastic.” [Amtrak heats this plastic enough to melt and warp]

SUMMARY: Food content rates a ‘1’ however, overall, this cuisine non recommendable. 
1] Carcinogenic properties of Polyethylene Terephthalate plate when heated.
2] Sodium at unhealthy level. 
3] Waste is not recycled or reused.


----------



## Dustyroad

Note: Coffee is no longer available in the mornings in the sleeper cars. You have to go to the dining car and wait for an attendant. 

Hi everyone. I have been a ''lurker'' here for a while and have been reading all the interesting and informative information on the site.
Besides the Flex meals, now they have taken away the coffee in the sleeper car. I hope Amtrak can get back to normal as soon this virus gets under control.


----------



## Nick Farr

joelkfla said:


> Did they give any butter for it?



No butter available, I asked.


----------



## flitcraft

This seems like prison food to me--mushy enough to eat with plastic utensils, high in fat and salt; and low in nutritional quality, reasonable quantity, and overall edibility.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How are the new dishes on the West menu? https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...nus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-West-0720.pdf
> 
> Does anyone have nutrition facts on the ENCHILADAS, CHICKEN MARSALA, and SHRIMP IN LOBSTER SAUCE?
> 
> I'm of the opinion that Amtrak will use this opportunity to conveniently get rid of "Traditional Dining" for good. They might as well also remove the Diner and let folks get meals in the Sightseer (or use the Viewliner Diner on Eastern trains and remove the Cafe car). The Viewliner Diner could become the Sightseer for Eastern trains.



You can bet that they are super high in sodium, not to mention a lot of other heart killer ingredients


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> Aw c'mon... flex this and flex that... twirl it on your head or juggle it between your arms while going from car to car... it's all the same stuff... we all know it... it's desperately ridiculously inconsiderate to the traveler and we're all saying the same thing... 'not good!' OMG! This is my 250th post... sorry to have to waste this milestone of sorts on such unfortunate catastrophic cuisine clumsiness on the part of Amtrak's total disregard for it's patrons!
> 
> If you wanna go by train, get a good loaf of rich wheat grain and seed bread, a jar of peanut butter, and a jar of really good strawberry jam, add some bon bell cheese, fruit, wine... and enjoy the view out the window! And be happy!
> 
> Flex dining is sooooo...
> No Taste
> No Texture
> Small portion
> Unsatisfying





Rasputin said:


> With all these "bring-your-own-meals" suggestions, I can help but think of boarding a train, going to my roomette and accidently sitting on or putting my arm or hand on the leftover remnants of the meal preparation endeavor of the last passenger to occupy the room (or to find the leftover remnants under my seat). Not to mention the enhanced opportunity to encounter vermin.



Great and now we have Covid-19


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17916
> 
> 
> That's the Red Wine Braised Beef with pearl onions, carrots and mushrooms served with Polenta and Haricot Vert.
> 
> The Beef was not awful, but still incredibly salty and definitely not even close to the old grill prepared meat options. But it was cooked all the way through, no cold spots or detectable uneven temperatures.
> 
> The veggies held up surprisingly well, the carrots being the most flavorful part. They had the taste and texture of broth boiled carrots, definitely an unexpected highlight.
> 
> The polenta was too salty and quite rubbery around the edges. That was probably the least palatable part, but I didn't mind finishing it.
> 
> View attachment 17917
> 
> 
> I opted for dinner in my roomette. Instead of taking a reservation, a dining car attendant came by my room to take my order. It came in a bag at the promised time. The presentation was nice, I was delighted to have two coffees (presumably since you'd get a refill in the cafe car).
> 
> View attachment 17918
> 
> 
> The dinner roll was actually nice and warm and felt like a good touch.
> 
> The salad was fresh and crisp, iceberg lettuce, small salad tomatoes and some carrot shavings. Only complaint is that the salad dressing packets are for salads twice that size.
> 
> For Dessert, only two choices: Brownie or Cookie. Fortunately it was a Sweet Street brownie that, while packaged, was actually the most flavorful part of the meal.
> 
> This is not the same food quality as the old cafe car, obviously. Whereas the old cafe car might be Applebee's but down a nudge, my take is Flex Dining is TV Dinners bumped up a nudge.
> 
> Now looking forward to Breakfast in Denver!


how much did you tip for room service?


----------



## Nick Farr

Ferroequinologist said:


> how much did you tip for room service?



I'm planning on $10/day, at the end of the trip to cut down on cash handling, same as the SCA.

Almost everyone in the sleepers is taking meals to go.

Today I was in the diner for one meal, tipped $5.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Is the diner crew bringing your meals? That’s supposed to be the job of the sca.

Also... unless it’s changed because of covid the sca is supposed to offer you coffee in the morning, at least that’s what my sca told me and did right after the flex dining change on the meteor.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Is the diner crew bringing your meals? That’s supposed to be the job of the sca.
> 
> Also... unless it’s changed because of covid the sca is supposed to offer you coffee in the morning, at least that’s what my sca told me and did right after the flex dining change on the meteor.


No, many say they've eliminated the morning coffee in the sleeping cars. Be sure to bring your own bottled water and kettle and powdered coffee; all you need with that are those pop tarts you can get at the dollar store. Have the tiny flex meals been discontinued yet? Don't forget your own cheese and crackers. Basically remember to bring your own food and drink and plenty of money for tipping.

Are we there yet???


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Is the diner crew bringing your meals? That’s supposed to be the job of the sca.



Yes, the diner crew is taking my order and bringing (everyone's) meals just as they used to come take my reservation.

From what I gather, because of COVID, the dining car staff's workload went down and the SCA's workload went up. 

Here's the 5:30 dinner rush:


----------



## Nick Farr

Today I decided to try having dinner in the dining car. The new menus are also fully in effect so I decided to try the chicken marsala. "Seared chicken with cavatappi pasta, broccoli and carrots in a Marsala wine sauce"

The sauce in this one was not that salty, it had a lot but flat flavor. The vegetable medley was on par or slightly better than any frozen vegetable equivalent.

The chicken was terrible. Tough, dry and flavorless.

Side salad was great. Only problem: No plate for my dessert. They were out of the blondies.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17933
> 
> 
> Today I decided to try having dinner in the dining car. The new menus are also fully in effect so I decided to try the chicken marsala. "Seared chicken with cavatappi pasta, broccoli and carrots in a Marsala wine sauce"
> 
> The sauce in this one was not that salty, it had a lot but flat flavor. The vegetable medley was on par or slightly better than any frozen vegetable equivalent.
> 
> The chicken was terrible. Tough, dry and flavorless.
> 
> Side salad was great. Only problem: No plate for my dessert. They were out of the blondies.
> 
> View attachment 17934


Ugh.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Rasputin said:


> They must have been placed there by the Flexible Dining Fairy. If you leave a quarter under your pillow at night you might get more.


I'll bet that quarter might get you a stale dinner role!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> You can bet that they are super high in sodium, not to mention a lot of other heart killer ingredients


Frozen enchiladas were recently on sale here at the grocery store; 3 for $1.


----------



## noflyzone

flitcraft said:


> This seems like prison food to me--mushy enough to eat with plastic utensils, high in fat and salt; and low in nutritional quality, reasonable quantity, and overall edibility.


Never been in prison. What's it like, other than food?


----------



## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> I'll bet that quarter might get you a stale dinner role!


Without butter.


----------



## joelkfla

joelkfla said:


> Did they give any butter for it?





Nick Farr said:


> No butter available, I asked.


I'm surprised to read that the FDA says butter and margarine do not require refrigeration (although the taste may go off after a few days.) Another thing to add to your Flex Dining Survival Kit.


----------



## PVD

In the proper packaging....


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The Brownies are the only dessert option correct? No gluten free option?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17925
> 
> 
> This is the the Asian Noodle Bowl:
> 
> "Yaki Soba noodles with carrots, edamame, red peppers, baby corn, scallions and Shiitake mushrooms in a garlic-chili sauce."
> 
> The noodles were pretty good, but annoyingly sticky in the manner many straight instant noodles are. It was hard to gather a reasonable bite without going to the knife.
> 
> Unfortunately, the sauce was more like an orange sauce than anything else with just a hint of heat and no perceptible garlic flavor. The sweetness of it overpowered everything except for a few hints of mushroom and baby corn that emerged unscathed. Also you'll notice the celery substitution for the red peppers, of which I barely noticed any.
> 
> View attachment 17926
> 
> 
> The warmed up toffee crunch brownie was the highlight. It has that preservative-like spongy crumble to it but otherwise a very well balanced dessert with nice chocolate chips and very flavorful toffee bits.
> 
> Side salad was great and fresh as usual.
> 
> Note: Coffee is no longer available in the mornings in the sleeper cars. You have to go to the dining car and wait for an attendant.


We can only guess at how this mass produced institutional food is assembled... each component might be taken from a big vat as the #1 Polyethylene Terephthalate plates whiz by the on a conveyer belt towards the freezer. Although the actual chemically enhanced food product may only cost the contracted service a few cents per meal, then sold to Amtrak for contracted price, Amtrak employees have told me several times they must bring their own food or pay $25 for this. 

When it comes to progress, flex dining allows the passenger to balance a light meal on the head when bringing it back to the sleeping car while the traditional meals were heavier and had many components. In my opinion, this whole flex flop is over the top!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17933
> 
> 
> Today I decided to try having dinner in the dining car. The new menus are also fully in effect so I decided to try the chicken marsala. "Seared chicken with cavatappi pasta, broccoli and carrots in a Marsala wine sauce"
> 
> The sauce in this one was not that salty, it had a lot but flat flavor. The vegetable medley was on par or slightly better than any frozen vegetable equivalent.
> 
> The chicken was terrible. Tough, dry and flavorless.
> 
> Side salad was great. Only problem: No plate for my dessert. They were out of the blondies.



Oops! More cost cutting??? All of the posts with flex meal photos show they have discontinued the little carrot slivers in the 3 oz salads. Has anyone seen the carrot slivers lately??? I see they're holding steady on the cherry tomato; wondering when that's gonna go. Wonder what'll happen when the discontinue the lettuce from the salad???


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Brownies are the only dessert option correct? No gluten free option?



They have the Sweet Street Brownie and Blondie (which some staff call a cookie.) I know Sweet Street does have gluten free options but I'm not sure either of these are that.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Thanks.
When the western trains first went to flex dining passengers reported the gluten free vanilla pudding was still available. Probably just extra stock they were going through.

Same with those Newman’s salad dressings - the only option on the silver meteor was a ketchup size packet of ranch dressing.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

flitcraft said:


> This seems like prison food to me--mushy enough to eat with plastic utensils, high in fat and salt; and low in nutritional quality, reasonable quantity, and overall edibility.



While the 'Flex Dining' food product itself may be edible for occasional intake in a critical situation, there are three reasons why it is not recommended for human consumption. The first two involve health risk, the last is environmental. I hope Amtrak management is watching our forum and will rethink its responsibilities to both safety and the environment.

1] Carcinogenic and toxic properties of Polyethylene Terephthalate plate when heated.*
2] Sodium at unhealthy level. 
3] Food and container waste is not recycled or reused. 

* If you will be 'Flex Dining' your food will be heated in the plastic dish. Turn it over and you will see the designation as '1' in the triangular recycling stamp required by law. You owe it to yourself to check this out:









#ChemicalCallout: Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE)


Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE) does not readily break down in the environment and it may pose some toxicity risks.




www.madesafe.org


----------



## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> While the 'Flex Dining' food product itself may be edible for occasional intake in a critical situation, there are three reasons why it is not recommended for human consumption. The first two involve health risk, the last is environmental. I hope Amtrak management is watching our forum and will rethink its responsibilities to both safety and the environment.
> 
> 1] Carcinogenic and toxic properties of Polyethylene Terephthalate plate when heated.*
> 2] Sodium at unhealthy level.
> 3] Food and container waste is not recycled or reused.
> 
> * If you will be 'Flex Dining' your food will be heated in the plastic dish. Turn it over and you will see the designation as '1' in the triangular recycling stamp required by law. You owe it to yourself to check this out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #ChemicalCallout: Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE)
> 
> 
> Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE) does not readily break down in the environment and it may pose some toxicity risks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.madesafe.org


A Congressional investigation of point #1 might change things pretty quick. Congresspeople, especially Democratic ones, love to appear to be watching out for the safety of their constituents.


----------



## fdaley

Ugh. Just looking at the food pictures here reminds me why I don't want to take Amtrak anymore. I have loved traveling by train and was an AGR Select Plus member for many years based mainly on long-distance travel in sleeper cars. Last year, after "contemporary" food came to the Lake Shore and Capitol, I cut back on traveling and was downgraded to Select status. This year I won't even achieve that. Before the pandemic hit, we had talked about finding another way to Chicago and then taking the western trains from there, but with all of those trains now serving the same horrible slop, I am glad to be staying home. If traditional dining doesn't return, I doubt I will ever take another overnight train trip, except perhaps on Via Rail -- if its long-haul routes return. I could write to Amtrak and tell them how much money I'm saving by staying home, but I have a funny feeling the current management team would regard that as success.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> Ugh. Just looking at the food pictures here reminds me why I don't want to take Amtrak anymore. I have loved traveling by train and was an AGR Select Plus member for many years based mainly on long-distance travel in sleeper cars. Last year, after "contemporary" food came to the Lake Shore and Capitol, I cut back on traveling and was downgraded to Select status. This year I won't even achieve that. Before the pandemic hit, we had talked about finding another way to Chicago and then taking the western trains from there, but with all of those trains now serving the same horrible slop, I am glad to be staying home. If traditional dining doesn't return, I doubt I will ever take another overnight train trip, except perhaps on Via Rail -- if its long-haul routes return. I could write to Amtrak and tell them how much money I'm saving by staying home, but I have a funny feeling the current management team would regard that as success.



Na, the robotic management team... they just don't care. You know... it's the government bureaucracy. 

And like you, part of the fun of the travel were those meals... railroad french toast drowning in butter and syrup for breakfast, delicious angus burgers at lunch, and a steak dinner... while watching the world fly by. What? the price hasn't gone down? Not in anyway desperate to take the train. Bring back quality, customer respect/appreciation, and delicious food or I'm gone. Maybe its time to focus on car trip vacations allowing freedom and control when traveling.


----------



## TheCrescent

I see that the House of Representatives is looking at legislation to require Amtrak to have regular dining cars again.

Instead of micro-managing Amtrak, the Federal government should just give it its grant and let Amtrak do what it wants to maximize revenues and minimize losses. I'd guess that something in-between Flexible Dining and made-to-order meals would maximize profits. Amtrak has had some pretty capable CEOs lately. Just let them run their business!


----------



## fdaley

20th Century Rider said:


> Na, the robotic management team... they just don't care. You know... it's the government bureaucracy.
> 
> And like you, part of the fun of the travel were those meals... railroad french toast drowning in butter and syrup for breakfast, delicious angus burgers at lunch, and a steak dinner... while watching the world fly by. What? the price hasn't gone down? Not in anyway desperate to take the train. Bring back quality, customer respect/appreciation, and delicious food or I'm gone. Maybe its time to focus on car trip vacations allowing freedom and control when traveling.
> 
> View attachment 17937


The car has advantages -- including that one can poke around at railroad sites along the way, at least to the extent one's family will tolerate it. But If it's a trip of more than 2-4 hours, I really do get weary of being behind the wheel. The train by comparison was a pleasure. And it's not that I'm looking for white-tablecloth service, though I wouldn't object to that. The dining service Amtrak was offering prior to 2018 was perfectly adequate, and occasionally, especially 5-15 years ago, inspired. What they're offering now is just an insult.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TheCrescent said:


> I see that the House of Representatives is looking at legislation to require Amtrak to have regular dining cars again.
> 
> Instead of micro-managing Amtrak, the Federal government should just give it its grant and let Amtrak do what it wants to maximize revenues and minimize losses. I'd guess that something in-between Flexible Dining and made-to-order meals would maximize profits. Amtrak has had some pretty capable CEOs lately. Just let them run their business!


They've had 'made to order meals' in the past which weren't too much better than the flex stuff. They need to have an adequately qualitative product... better management of funding allocation, less wasteful spending, and like most other countries... adequate government financial support. We must not lose site that railroads are a public service and one of the best one for the environment. 

Hmmm... I wonder what the position of the candidates will be for the upcoming election???


----------



## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> The car has advantages -- including that one can poke around at railroad sites along the way, at least to the extent one's family will tolerate it. But If it's a trip of more than 2-4 hours, I really do get weary of being behind the wheel. The train by comparison was a pleasure. And it's not that I'm looking for white-tablecloth service, though I wouldn't object to that. The dining service Amtrak was offering prior to 2018 was perfectly adequate, and occasionally, especially 5-15 years ago, inspired. What they're offering now is just an insult.


Right on - we're all saying the same thing!!!


----------



## me_little_me

TheCrescent said:


> I see that the House of Representatives is looking at legislation to require Amtrak to have regular dining cars again.
> 
> Instead of micro-managing Amtrak, the Federal government should just give it its grant and let Amtrak do what it wants to maximize revenues and minimize losses. I'd guess that something in-between Flexible Dining and made-to-order meals would maximize profits. Amtrak has had some pretty capable CEOs lately. Just let them run their business!


The problem is that the CEOs are not running their business - unless you consider running down their business or running their company out of business or ruining their business to be running it.

WE THE TAXPAYERS OWN Amtrak. WE have the right to request our representatives to STOP Amtrak from doing something that is in our opinion bad for us and the country.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TheCrescent said:


> I see that the House of Representatives is looking at legislation to require Amtrak to have regular dining cars again.
> 
> Instead of micro-managing Amtrak, the Federal government should just give it its grant and let Amtrak do what it wants to maximize revenues and minimize losses. I'd guess that something in-between Flexible Dining and made-to-order meals would maximize profits. Amtrak has had some pretty capable CEOs lately. Just let them run their business!



They need to go back to having a quality product and the pre made meals went over like a lead balloon. It's all about maximizing and stretching funding to get the best possible product for the customer. It also will take a more positive attitude from the government realizing that passenger service is a national state run service for the benefit of the citizenry; also realizing that passenger trains are the best mode of transportation to support the environment.

All that being said, and not bringing in politics, what transpires during the next election could be essential for the survival of Amtrak. The incumbent wants to cut out LD entirely; the other has supported Amtrak in the past. Lots more discussion will ensue I'm sure. It may be fair to say that as rail enthusiasts on this site... 'we're all pretty much in this together.'


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> The problem is that the CEOs are not running their business - unless you consider running down their business or running their company out of business or ruining their business to be running it.
> 
> WE THE TAXPAYERS OWN Amtrak. WE have the right to request our representatives to STOP Amtrak from doing something that is in our opinion bad for us and the country.


Bravo! Totally agree with you!!!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TheCrescent said:


> I see that the House of Representatives is looking at legislation to require Amtrak to have regular dining cars again.
> 
> Instead of micro-managing Amtrak, the Federal government should just give it its grant and let Amtrak do what it wants to maximize revenues and minimize losses. I'd guess that something in-between Flexible Dining and made-to-order meals would maximize profits. Amtrak has had some pretty capable CEOs lately. Just let them run their business!


It's clear Amtrak needs to be supported by the government with greater priority for rail travel as a service to the citizenry and as a responsibility to the environment.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It’s important to note that there are multiple complaints. 

You can cut table service and still provide the old menu by keeping the chef and the lsa. That cuts the server positions and the table service but keeps the pre-flex quality.

Even with cutting the chef position and going to all pre-packaged food you can offer a quality product. What is being offered is not quality.


----------



## TheCrescent

me_little_me said:


> The problem is that the CEOs are not running their business - unless you consider running down their business or running their company out of business or ruining their business to be running it.
> 
> WE THE TAXPAYERS OWN Amtrak. WE have the right to request our representatives to STOP Amtrak from doing something that is in our opinion bad for us and the country.



We have the right to ask our representatives anything, but that doesn't mean that letting Congress micro-manage Amtrak will result in a better Amtrak.

What if Congress tells Amtrak to have meal service meeting criteria X, Y and Z, even if Amtrak's CEO is aware that meeting criteria X, Y and Z is not cost-effective and money could be spent elsewhere for more impact?

Or what if Congress is controlled by people hostile to your views?

In neither event would Amtrak be best off.

Passenger rail experts, not 535 Congresspeople who may know little if anything about railroading, should decide how Amtrak should spend its money, and funds should be given to Amtrak to do as it pleases (as long as basic service criteria are met).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TheCrescent said:


> Passenger rail experts, not 535 Congresspeople who may know little if anything about railroading, should decide how Amtrak should spend its money, and funds should be given to Amtrak to do as it pleases (as long as basic service criteria are met).



That’s the problem... what is basic service criteria? TV dinners and no checked baggage in towns like Greenville South Carolina do not meet basic service criteria in my definition.


----------



## TheCrescent

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s the problem... what is basic service criteria? TV dinners and no checked baggage in towns like Greenville South Carolina do not meet basic service criteria in my definition.



That’s a fair point.

In my view, “basic service criteria” would just be an obligation to have stations within 10 miles of maybe 85% of the US population, served by trains at least once a day in each direction. Everything else would be up to Amtrak.

But if you want to get more detailed, fine.

Two things I dislike are Congress telling Amtrak that (1) losses on food are prohibited and (2) ticket prices have to be within a certain minimum and maximum. Get rid of those 2 requirements and Amtrak could be much better off.

I don’t care about no checked baggage in Greenville (my home station); ridership at that station is so low that it’s hard to justify. But if that matters to you, understood.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TheCrescent said:


> I don’t care about no checked baggage in Greenville (my home station); ridership at that station is so low that it’s hard to justify. But if that matters to you, understood.



Oh small world! I typically visit Greenville every year for Artisphere... this year that wasn’t the case of course 

If the ridership is so low, why do they justify a train station at all?


----------



## TheCrescent

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh small world! I typically visit Greenville every year for Artisphere... this year that wasn’t the case of course
> 
> If the ridership is so low, why do they justify a train station at all?



Thanks for coming to support my hometown!

Well, it's a pretty decent-size city and train ridership has potential. The current station is in a Norfolk Southern building, so maintenance costs must be minimal. 

It just could be so much more, instead of a nondescript, lightly-used train station that feels like it's at the end of the earth, in a dodgy area.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I have booked a trip to South Dakota for later this month. I will be taking the *Freedom Flyer* Northbound (actually North by Northwest) and the *Liberty Express *back home. I will actually serve as the entire operating crew but will not know the equipment until Enterprise rolls it out of the Norman OK master yard. The Dining Car offerings will vary by the region I am in during each mealtime, and it will offer spacious sit down seating. And a few different sleeping accomodations are available, again all spacious, and I have booked different ones to give them all a try.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Nick Farr said:


> I'm planning on $10/day, at the end of the trip to cut down on cash handling, same as the SCA.
> 
> Almost everyone in the sleepers is taking meals to go.
> 
> Today I was in the diner for one meal, tipped $5.



Won't the attendant serve you your meals in your room, i.e. room service? You have to physically go to the dining car to get the food and carry it back?


----------



## TheCrescent

Ferroequinologist said:


> Won't the attendant serve you your meals in your room, i.e. room service? You have to physically go to the dining car to get the food and carry it back?



In my experience, it varies. Sometimes you are required to pick it up yourself; sometimes you are banned from picking it up yourself. Sometimes you have a choice. It’s confusing.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

I called Amtrak about this. I was told by a supervisor that they MUST serve you in your room and that this is the PREFERRED way of providing meals... but Amtrak of course is chaotic so anything goes. 
I would like some information on Kosher meals. Has anyone had them? 
Is there coffee available in sleeping cars? 
Can ice be obtained anywhere? 
Is there bottled water?


----------



## TheCrescent

Ferroequinologist said:


> I called Amtrak about this. I was told by a supervisor that they MUST serve you in your room and that this is the PREFERRED way of providing meals... but Amtrak of course is chaotic so anything goes.
> I would like some information on Kosher meals. Has anyone had them?
> Is there coffee available in sleeping cars?
> Can ice be obtained anywhere?
> Is there bottled water?



Coffee: sometimes it's available in sleeping cars, sometimes not. You can get it in the café car. I'm not sure if it's free or not unless you get it with a meal. It often comes with a side of attitude.
Bottled water: usually, but not always, bottles are in your room when you board.
Ice can be obtained in cafe cars, at least when you buy or otherwise get a drink.


----------



## railiner

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I have booked a trip to South Dakota for later this month. I will be taking the *Freedom Flyer* Northbound (actually North by Northwest) and the *Liberty Express *back home. I will actually serve as the entire operating crew but will not know the equipment until Enterprise rolls it out of the Norman OK master yard. The Dining Car offerings will vary by the region I am in during each mealtime, and it will offer spacious sit down seating. And a few different sleeping accomodations are available, again all spacious, and I have booked different ones to give them all a try.


Check the date...you missed April First....


----------



## tricia

TheCrescent said:


> Thanks for coming to support my hometown!
> 
> Well, it's a pretty decent-size city and train ridership has potential. The current station is in a Norfolk Southern building, so maintenance costs must be minimal.
> 
> It just could be so much more, instead of a nondescript, lightly-used train station that feels like it's at the end of the earth, in a dodgy area.



Only two trains a day, with southbound arriving at 4:?? AM and northbound usually late, after midnight. It's also the closest Amtrak to Asheville, and has a parking lot where I've left a vehicle many times for a week or more, for free. Even so, I've never boarded or got off alone, and sometimes there've been dozens of other passengers.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

TheCrescent said:


> In my experience, it varies. Sometimes you are required to pick it up yourself; sometimes you are banned from picking it up yourself. Sometimes you have a choice. It’s confusing.



That’s the Amtrak way!!! 

With flex dining you are supposed to be able to get complimentary drinks from the diner. In my experience my sca would offer to get me one now and then, or the lsa in the diner would grudgingly get out of her booth and get me a coffee.


----------



## Nick Farr

Ferroequinologist said:


> Won't the attendant serve you your meals in your room, i.e. room service? You have to physically go to the dining car to get the food and carry it back?



Yes, the dining car attendant takes your order and brings it to you in a take-out bag.

If you elect to dine in the dining car, they will ask for your room number and bring your meal to the table.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Yes, the dining car attendant takes your order and brings it to you in a take-out bag



In my experience the sleeping car attendant takes the orders and delivers the food. This was the case when I ate in my room, and when I ate in the diner.

For breakfast I helped myself and ordered coffee and yogurt from the lsa behind the counter who was annoyed when I asked a question about the menu.

As usual, your crew will make up their own rules as they see fit so just go with it and tip accordingly. 

In my case I tipped $20 to the sca (1 overnight) and $0 to the LSA.


----------



## Nick Farr

Ferroequinologist said:


> I called Amtrak about this. I was told by a supervisor that they MUST serve you in your room and that this is the PREFERRED way of providing meals... but Amtrak of course is chaotic so anything goes.
> I would like some information on Kosher meals. Has anyone had them?
> Is there coffee available in sleeping cars?
> Can ice be obtained anywhere?
> Is there bottled water?



On my July 1-2 CZ trip:

No idea on Kosher meals.

Coffee was *not* available in sleeping cars because of COVID. You could get it from the dining car if there was an attendant OR for free from the Cafe in the lounge car if you told them you were in the sleepers.

Ice was not available.

Bottled water was *everywhere* in the sleepers.

The dining car staff also told me I could request anything from the SCA by pushing the call button in my room. Under normal times, you would hit that button if you wanted dinner in your room.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s the Amtrak way!!!
> 
> With flex dining you are supposed to be able to get complimentary drinks from the diner. In my experience my sca would offer to get me one now and then, or the lsa in the diner would grudgingly get out of her booth and get me a coffee.



Accurate.


----------



## me_little_me

TheCrescent said:


> I don’t care about no checked baggage in Greenville (my home station); ridership at that station is so low that it’s hard to justify. But if that matters to you, understood.


It's my home station too but why the "poor" ridership?

I've noticed it has decreased due to the lack of baggage handling any more. Also the change in the food has made sleeper passengers like me reduce our use of the station and consider driving to where we can catch a daytime train and spend a LOT less for the overnight accommodations and get good food off-train. When we have to pay for the food now, we pay and carry onboard.

Its bad hours (5AM SB and 11PM NB) are bad enough but the NB train is almost always 2 hours late due to NS in Alabama/Mississippi and boarding at 1AM is no fun for someone who has done it often enough.

The poor average "quality" of the onboard SCAs and staff doesn't help.

Now some things are the problem of the city and state including lack of support.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> In my experience the sleeping car attendant takes the orders and delivers the food. This was the case when I ate in my room, and when I ate in the diner.



This is normally what happens. My impression is that the new rules are on account of COVID, Amtrak wants to cut down on the number of potential contacts people have.

Frankly, for cross country travel, I can't think of a safer way than a sleeping car right now.


----------



## Nick Farr

20th Century Rider said:


> They've had 'made to order meals' in the past which weren't too much better than the flex stuff. They need to have an adequately qualitative product... better management of funding allocation, less wasteful spending, and like most other countries... adequate government financial support. We must not lose site that railroads are a public service and one of the best one for the environment.



There is absolutely a way to do this--just look at how airlines prepare first class meals. Everything still comes in foil from the catering company and is heated on board, but the freshness and presentation (which is just the stewardesses) makes all the difference.

Amtrak *can* partner with local vendors along the route to have prepared trays of meals in a similar fashion. For the sleeper cars, orders can be taken and since the local vendors will know (with some certainty) about delays, they can prepare meals around meal times when they know the train is going to be there. 

As an *emergency backup* Amtrak can have other options on board.


----------



## PVD

It doesn't need to be local or enroute to improve. Airlines fly very long legs with the meals put on board for the whole trip. You have to want to do it. 16 hour flights with 300 passengers leave JFK every day (well until a few months ago)


----------



## TheCrescent

me_little_me said:


> It's my home station too but why the "poor" ridership?
> 
> I've noticed it has decreased due to the lack of baggage handling any more. Also the change in the food has made sleeper passengers like me reduce our use of the station and consider driving to where we can catch a daytime train and spend a LOT less for the overnight accommodations and get good food off-train. When we have to pay for the food now, we pay and carry onboard.
> 
> Its bad hours (5AM SB and 11PM NB) are bad enough but the NB train is almost always 2 hours late due to NS in Alabama/Mississippi and boarding at 1AM is no fun for someone who has done it often enough.
> 
> The poor average "quality" of the onboard SCAs and staff doesn't help.
> 
> Now some things are the problem of the city and state including lack of support.



I think that Amtrak has zero visibility in Greenville. Very few people know that it exists and there’s no wonder: an out-of-the-way station in a bad area with trains at bad hours. Conversely, in Clemson the station is in the middle of town and you can’t escape knowing that trains come through there.

It’s too bad because the times are actually OK for a long day trip to Atlanta or a trip to Washington. 

Given how unpleasant the Amtrak experience is I’m not sure if marketing or more visibility would do anything other than create first-time riders who don’t return, though. I prefer trains generally but even I am not looking forward to my next rattlebox trip and Flexible Dining breakfast.


----------



## Dakota 400

TheCrescent said:


> Two things I dislike are Congress telling Amtrak that (1) losses on food are prohibited



Just a thought: Both Houses of Congress have restaurants. I wonder if those restaurants break even, make money, or loose money. 

Don't know about both parties, but I am sure that one political party normally has a caucus luncheon each week when possible. Who pays for that luncheon?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> Just a thought: Both Houses of Congress have restaurants. I wonder if those restaurants break even, make money, or loose money.
> 
> Don't know about both parties, but I am sure that one political party normally has a caucus luncheon each week when possible. Who pays for that luncheon?


We the People pay for these "Royals" to Live like Kings and Queens!


----------



## Nick Farr

Well, I spoke a little too soon on breakfast. This LSA wants us to have breakfast in the dining car, and apparently is just dropping a cup of hot water for us.

I know I could have called the SCA for breakfast in my room, but I hate bothering.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17952
> 
> 
> Well, I spoke a little too soon on breakfast. This LSA wants us to have breakfast in the dining car, and apparently is just dropping a cup of hot water for us.
> 
> I know I could have called the SCA for breakfast in my room, but I hate bothering.



Now there’s the classy Amtrak service I know and love! 

And that’s the problem with Amtrak.... it’s so darn inconsistent.


----------



## Nick Farr

This is the Shrimp in Lobster Sauce: "Pan seared shrimp with Parisian carrots, Haricot verts and confetti rice. Served in a brandied lobster sauce."

This one was actually the best I've had so far. The sauce had a pretty good flavor to it, it was not overly salty or sweet. 

Only bummer this time was that the Blondie was not warmed up. It's way better warmed up a touch.




Another change between the 5 and the 6, we lost the Newman's own dressings...but these sizes seem more appropriate for the side salad.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Another change between the 5 and the 6, we lost the Newman's own dressings...but these sizes seem more appropriate for the side salad.



Yup... I figured the Newman’s was the old stock they were getting rid of. Can’t keep anything too nice around right?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Nick Farr said:


> Frankly, for cross country travel, I can't think of a safer way than a sleeping car right now.


What I would like to see in the future is a move toward improved filtration and ventilation for long distance passenger rail hardware. That way airborne contamination would be less of an issue, whether related to an inodorous pandemic or a pungent sewage tank retrofit. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> I figured the Newman’s was the old stock they were getting rid of. Can’t keep anything too nice around right?


Presumably the bring it from home crowd will chime in at some point but consider how silly this is becoming. Where I live you can't purchase single-use dressing packets in personal use quantities. You can buy a single bottle with fifty uses but who wants to carry something that can leak and ruin everything in your suitcase? Not to mention you probably want to keep it chilled after opening to avoid problems.



Nick Farr said:


> Ice was not available.



Oh well. I realize for some people it's worth it to just keep bringing more goods and workarounds as amenities and services are rolled back but at some point it starts to become a serious nuisance.


----------



## Nick Farr

Good news! There's butter now, and ice!!!

Here's the Enchiladas, the "Vegan and Healthy Option"

"Corn tortillas filled with plant based protein, black beans, corn and cheese enchiladas with yellow rice and ancho chili sauce"

So this was shockingly not as bad as I had thought it would be. The sauce was not overly salty and had a discernable chili-like flavor with a mild heat. The tortillas we're consistently firm (but dry). I had no idea what the protein was or what it's taste was, it just seemed to be bean-like and essentially a sponge for the flavor of the sauce. The texture was surprisingly not plastic. Overall the rice was the most disappointing bit, just a bit overdone.


----------



## Nick Farr

Here's the Creole Shrimp and Andouille (with a few bites taken out)

"Shrimp and Andouille sausage served with yellow rice, peppers, onions and green onions in a spicy Creole sauce."

So far, this is my favorite. The Shrimp and Sausage were on point, firm and flavorful. The sauce actually had a good heat to it, wasn't salty and added to the shrimp and sausage. The rice was, again, a disappointment and the advertised vegetables were not terribly noticeable in this one.

Shocking, but the two Shrimp dishes seem to be the winners so far.


----------



## PVD

Thanks for posting, everyone seems to have opinions, it is nice to get an up to date report on what is really out there. Wish we nutrition info, prepared foods of all quality levels seem to be loaded with sodium, added sugars, and too much saturated fats. some of us have to plan it out carefully. At least the food is palatable.


----------



## Nick Farr

So these meals appear to be prepared by DeSter, a brand of Gategroup:






gategroup







gategroup.com


----------



## PVD

Dester is a brand of the same company that owns Gate Gourmet


----------



## dogbert617

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak Roomette - $415
> Delta $426



Am curious, between which 2 cities is this price comparison (between Delta 1st class and an Amtrak roomette) for?

And someone else in this thread(but on the previous page) said the Asian Noodle Bowl had been removed, from the flex dining menu. Too bad, since myself I kinda thought I might try that on a future Amtrak trip, w/flex dining. It's too bad I really worry the traditional dining car menu may not come back, on all of Amtrak's long distance trains.  And cost cutting moves like this, really will hurt ridership down the road.


----------



## Nick Farr

dogbert617 said:


> And someone else in this thread(but on the previous page) said the Asian Noodle Bowl had been removed, from the flex dining menu.



You could order it on the CZ as of this week in July, both ways. 

I reviewed it early in this thread on my way out here.

It's kind of disappointing.


----------



## dogbert617

Nick Farr said:


> You could order it on the CZ as of this week in July, both ways.
> 
> I reviewed it early in this thread on my way out here.
> 
> It's kind of disappointing.



I'll have to reread your post where you reviewed eating that, and other flex menu dishes. It's too bad about the dining car downgrades, since that will make me think long and hard about upgrading for trips, where it's *borderline not too long where I could handle coach. And by the *, my borderline threshold would be 12-24 hours. Though I did once do a coach trip for 28-29 hours on one long distance train trip in the past, and survived fine.

These food downgrades with flex dining are disappointing, since inevitably this will hurt the number of people who opt to upgrade to a sleeper. Never mind I unfortunately am convinced that some of the Gardner/Anderson(know he's now gone, but for sure he thought this way)/etc types would probably kill off as many long distance trains as they could, if not for(thankfully) all the organized lobbying to keep these trains running.

And as for the Asian Noodle Bowl, I guess Amtrak is serving that on the CZ(and maybe other trains too) while supplies last? Then probably for all I know, phasing that out and moving on to a slightly different flex menu.


----------



## Nick Farr

joelkfla said:


> Did they give any butter for it?



Just to confirm, they are offering butter on the #6 back to Chicago. I was on the #5, which didn't have butter.

However, they aren't heating up rolls or desserts on this train and this LSA wants butts in the dining car, they are making the SCAs pick up meals for those of us who don't want exposure.


----------



## Nick Farr

dogbert617 said:


> as for the Asian Noodle Bowl, I guess Amtrak is serving that on the CZ(and maybe other trains too) while supplies last? Then probably for all I know, phasing that out and moving on to a slightly different flex menu.



According to the staff, the full eight item menu is on all western trains as of July 1.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> they are making the SCAs pick up meals for those of us who don't want exposure.



That’s exactly how the contemporary dining is supposed to work. On paper that is.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

dogbert617 said:


> Am curious, between which 2 cities is this price comparison (between Delta 1st class and an Amtrak roomette) for?



Silver Meteor.


----------



## dogbert617

crescent-zephyr said:


> Silver Meteor.



Thanks for answering which Amtrak train, you were referring to there. I also was trying to ask between which 2 cities Delta flies to, were you talking about in your earlier post?


----------



## dogbert617

Nick Farr said:


> According to the staff, the full eight item menu is on all western trains as of July 1.



Didn't realize the flex dining menu was revised a little bit, as of July 1st. Btw I really do greatly appreciate your reviews, on the flex dining food items you've tried. Since it gives me an idea of what to expect for food, if I were to pull the trigger and do an Amtrak sleeper trip to somewhere between now and October 1st. Sadly with the quality of flex menu food being worser vs. the old dining car menu, it makes me more likely I'd brave coach for trips that aren't too far away. Which in my case, would be trips under 24 hours away. And that in the past, it'd be a slam dunk to upgrade to a sleeper, for those past decent dining car meals. I wish that'd come back. And while I cross my fingers it(old dining car menu, till early 2020) eventually comes back, I worry it won't.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Dester is a brand of the same company that owns Gate Gourmet


It kinda makes sense honestly. Other than being double-portioned these entrees look very similar to something you'd find on a long haul coach flight. Perhaps the severe reduction in intercontinental passenger travel got Amtrak a good deal on repurposed airline meals.


----------



## jiml

dogbert617 said:


> I really do greatly appreciate your reviews, on the flex dining food items you've tried.


Ditto @Nick Farr; solid reviews and pictures.


----------



## Exvalley

Does Dester provide the food, or just the containers, trays, and supplies?

From their website: *deSter is a leading provider of innovative food packaging and service ware concepts for the aviation, hospitality and food service industry.* 




__





gategroup







gategroup.com





This website shows that Amtrak was the purchaser of deSter packaging products:




__





Amtrak, 30TH AND MARKET PHILADELPHIA PA 19101 US | Buyer Report — Panjiva


Amtrak at 30TH AND MARKET PHILADELPHIA PA 19101 US. Find their customers, contact information, and details on 19 shipments.




panjiva.com





My hunch is that deSter provides the plastic trays, among other things. The Amtrak tray looks vaguely similar to the plastic tray sample shown on their website: gategroup


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s exactly how the contemporary dining is supposed to work. On paper that is.



On the 5 out west, the LSA was taking orders and delivering meals. They had their dining car tables clearly marked and set the expectation that in-room dining was the way to go. They also limited their announcements.

On the 6 back, it seems like LSA wanted it like old times, making almost as many announcements as the lounge car attendant.

I always used to eat in the dining car, but I'd rather limit exposure right now.


----------



## Nick Farr

dogbert617 said:


> Sadly with the quality of flex menu food being worser vs. the old dining car menu, it makes me more likely I'd brave coach for trips that aren't too far away.



I'd actually caution against that. Whereas mask compliance is basically 100% in the sleeper area and everyone is friendly, the few times I've gone to the lounge car for coffee have been unpleasant. People openly cussing in the observation car, being surly with the conductors, it was a totally different experience of what I'm used to. Just FYI, Amtrak is picking up Greyhound passengers between certain areas where Greyhound has suspended service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

dogbert617 said:


> Thanks for answering which Amtrak train, you were referring to there. I also was trying to ask between which 2 cities Delta flies to, were you talking about in your earlier post?



Delta flies to many cities from New York. Is there a reason you are wanting to know my specific travel history?


----------



## FastTrains

crescent-zephyr said:


> Now there’s the classy Amtrak service I know and love!
> 
> And that’s the problem with Amtrak.... it’s so darn inconsistent.



Yup, the only thing you can consistently count on with Amtrak is it's inconsistency.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I always used to eat in the dining car, but I'd rather limit exposure right now.



Oh same here. I may have been unclear - I meant the SCA’s are supposed to deliver the food to your room, not the dining car staff. That’s how the contemporary dining was supposed to work when it was introduced. 

It sounds like your previous lsa was going above and beyond to make things easy on the sca’s and the best and safest for the passengers.

One of the best things about the old viewliners falling apart is how the PA system doesn’t work... I can’t stand the constant announcements from LSA’s


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> One of the best things about the old viewliners falling apart is how the PA system doesn’t work... I can’t stand the constant announcements from LSA’s



On some Superliners, there's a dial and a volume control. I think if you switch it off to anything but channel 1, you'll skip the announcements.

On the new touch controls, that's disabled.


----------



## pennyk

Devil's Advocate said:


> Presumably the bring it from home crowd will chime in at some point but consider how silly this is becoming. Where I live you can't purchase single-use dressing packets in personal use quantities. You can buy a single bottle with fifty uses but who wants to carry something that can leak and ruin everything in your suitcase? Not to mention you probably want to keep it chilled after opening to avoid problems.


Because of food allergies, I cannot consume prepackaged salad dressing. I order individual packets of organic olive oil and organic balsamic vinegar from Amazon (or other on-line vendors) and have been carrying them with me for years. I put the packets in a plastic bag (just in case of leakage) and carry them in my purse or backpack.


----------



## PVD

Very readily available by mail order in bulk packs 60 or 100 depending on brand/size, but I've never seen them in a store for individual sale in a less commercial quantity. When things were different, I used to pick up large salads at an Italian deli/provisions store, they had the Ken's packs in a basket, you picked any 2. If you split the salad with someone else, you used 1 and had an extra. If you didn't finish the salad, it would be hard to save the opened pack unless you were home.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> It sounds like your previous lsa was going above and beyond to make things easy on the sca’s and the best and safest for the passengers.



The previous LSA seemed like they were actually following a new policy. The LSA on this train seems to be making it up as she goes along. The trip started with her coming to take orders (like they used to give reservations) and now she's calling people to the dining car by room numbers.


----------



## Nick Farr

Here's the Pasta & Meatballs, "Penne Pasta with Tomato Sauce, meatballs, Parmesan and mozzarella cheeses."

This one was the most true to form of all of them, a close second for me to the Creole Shrimp (which is to be avoided if you don't like spicy).

The pasta was maybe a little mushier than I would have liked, but the meatballs were shockingly good. The tomato sauce had a very nice flavor to it. Definitely one of the highlights, even though I'm not a pasta and meatballs fan.

The only dish I was not able to review was the Chicken Fettuccini.


----------



## Nick Farr

Also, just to provide more info/detail, here's the underside of the dish.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> The previous LSA seemed like they were actually following a new policy. The LSA on this train seems to be making it up as she goes along. The trip started with her coming to take orders (like they used to give reservations) and now she's calling people to the dining car by room numbers.



And your sca? Missing in action? Doesn’t want to be bothered?


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> And your sca? Missing in action? Doesn’t want to be bothered?



No, the SCAs in both directions were good and visible. I just have a thing against using a call button and a thing against consistency.

When the LSA stopped coming by, I started placing orders through the SCA.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> No, the SCAs in both directions were good and visible. I just have a thing against using a call button and a thing against consistency.
> 
> When the LSA stopped coming by, I started placing orders through the SCA.



Oh good. I’m glad the sca is taking care of you. Have you seen Dennis Burns on either trip? One of my favorite SCA’s from the Zephyr.


----------



## Exvalley

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17970
> 
> 
> Also, just to provide more info/detail, here's the underside of the dish.



Your photo adds to my theory that deSter is providing packaging and not food. First of all, deSter is a packaging company and not a food company. 

Second, there is this quote from a September, 2019 article:
_Amtrak owns its regional commissaries located in or near train depots. Presently these are outsourced and operated by Aramark (of Philadelphia). However, Amtrak is currently tendering for the future. Other entities operate out of local kitchens and Acela First are currently sub-contracted to an airline kitchen. _
Source: Blog - Onboard Hospitality

Third, you have this entry from a March, 2020 Amtrak service standards manual: 
_Aramark: Name of the current catering vendor who provides food, beverages and supplies to Amtrak’s trains._
Source: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...-service-standards-manual-030920-redacted.pdf


----------



## TheCrescent

South Carolina to NYC is $389 each way on the Crescent and so it’s pretty steep considering the ratty room and cruddy on-board experience. But it’s virus-free so I do it.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh good. I’m glad the sca is taking care of you. Have you seen Dennis Burns on either trip? One of my favorite SCA’s from the Zephyr.



How would I recognize them? I've only seen my own SCA both ways, whereas before they would tend to congregate in the dining car.


----------



## PVD

They often introduce themselves (first name) and leave a business card with their name for you to send comments.


----------



## Nick Farr

PVD said:


> They often introduce themselves (first name) and leave a business card with their name for you to send comments.



I have *never* seen the business card, though they do come by to introduce themselves and then disappear. I had one SCA who went to great lengths to decorate her car, that was when the consist had four sleepers in it IIRC.

Haven't met a Dennis yet though.


----------



## PVD

Maybe they don't do that anymore, I've got 4-5 in my drawer from trips.....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

pennyk said:


> Because of food allergies, I cannot consume prepackaged salad dressing. I order individual packets of organic olive oil and organic balsamic vinegar from Amazon (or other on-line vendors) and have been carrying them with me for years. I put the packets in a plastic bag (just in case of leakage) and carry them in my purse or backpack.


I don't intend to dissuade people who want to bring their own items for health, convenience, or preference. Everyone has their own needs and your decision to bring something should be your own. My only disagreement is with how bringing items from home is sometimes used as a catch-all solution for nearly any loss or lapse in Amtrak service standards. I don't have any (known) food allergies so if I ordered a box of single use dressing packets they would likely degrade and deteriorate before I could use most of them for the intended purpose. The vast majority of my trips involve at least one flight and when I've put condiment packets in my luggage they sometimes end up in a bad state. When a small ketchup or hot sauce packet opens inside a Ziploc bag it can generally be contained with a folded paper towel but I wouldn't trust this setup to hold a couple salad's worth of vinegar and olive oil.


----------



## PVD

There is another wrinkle to what we are discussing. The easiest way to have long shelf life products without refrigeration (for certain types of food) is adding more chemical stabilizers and preservatives....For the size of the salads they have today, you can use dressing packs the size of ketchup packs that are available, the ones we are used to are 2 tbs full servings (like Ken's or Newman's).


----------



## pennyk

Devil's Advocate said:


> I don't intend to dissuade people who want to bring their own items for health, convenience, or preference. Everyone has their own needs and your decision to bring something should be your own. My only disagreement is with how bringing items from home is sometimes used as a catch-all solution for nearly any loss or lapse in Amtrak service standards. I don't have any (known) food allergies so if I ordered a box of single use dressing packets they would likely degrade and deteriorate before I could use most of them for the intended purpose. The vast majority of my trips involve at least one flight and when I've put condiment packets in my luggage they sometimes end up in a bad state. When a small ketchup or hot sauce packet opens inside a Ziploc bag it can generally be contained with a folded paper towel but I wouldn't trust this setup to hold a couple salad's worth of vinegar and olive oil.


Since I purchased a punch of packets when I thought I would be making three very long trips this year, and those trips were canceled, it is very possible that I will not be using those packets since they may "expire" before I take a long trip.


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> Since I purchased a punch of packets when I thought I would be making three very long trips this year, and those trips were canceled, it is very possible that I will not be using those packets since they may "expire" before I take a long trip.


Better eat a lot of Salads Penny!


----------



## jiml

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17969
> 
> 
> Here's the Pasta & Meatballs, "Penne Pasta with Tomato Sauce, meatballs, Parmesan and mozzarella cheeses."
> 
> This one was the most true to form of all of them, a close second for me to the Creole Shrimp (which is to be avoided if you don't like spicy).
> 
> The pasta was maybe a little mushier than I would have liked, but the meatballs were shockingly good. The tomato sauce had a very nice flavor to it. Definitely one of the highlights, even though I'm not a pasta and meatballs fan.


That actually looks edible. Not exciting, but not trash-worthy either.


----------



## tim49424

jiml said:


> That actually looks edible. Not exciting, but not trash-worthy either.



I had it in December on the Cardinal. It was okay and probably the best of the flex meals I had. I can't eat spicy stuff so I'm limited as to what meals I can have.


----------



## jiml

tim49424 said:


> I had it in December on the Cardinal. It was okay and probably the best of the flex meals I had. I can't eat spicy stuff so I'm limited as to what meals I can have.


Hey, I don't eat shrimp and with the prepackaged nature of these entrees it's not like you can have it left out of the sausage bowl. Not a big spice fan either, so looking for anything that would work if I ever get to travel Amtrak again.


----------



## tim49424

jiml said:


> Hey, I don't eat shrimp and with the prepackaged nature of these entrees it's not like you can have it left out of the sausage bowl. Not a big spice fan either, so looking for anything that would work if I ever get to travel Amtrak again.



The difficult thing about the flex meals is none of them are exactly good for you. The beef is high in sodium. The Chicken for me was tough the first time I had it.....fine the second. If I ever have to eat the flex meals again, I'll probably stick with the meatballs. I don't mind eating the same thing meal after meal....I'm a creature of habit and always have my routine foods I eat in "normal" times.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

How are the drinks holding up on the zephyr? All the selections available?


----------



## joelkfla

tim49424 said:


> I had it in December on the Cardinal. It was okay and probably the best of the flex meals I had. I can't eat spicy stuff so I'm limited as to what meals I can have.


I prefer speecy spicy meatballs.


----------



## tim49424

joelkfla said:


> I prefer speecy spicy meatballs.



Bring hot sauce with you then, the meatballs aren’t spicy.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> How are the drinks holding up on the zephyr? All the selections available?



I didn't try them all but I never heard anything was out.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

tim49424 said:


> The difficult thing about the flex meals is none of them are exactly good for you. The beef is high in sodium. The Chicken for me was tough the first time I had it.....fine the second. If I ever have to eat the flex meals again, I'll probably stick with the meatballs. I don't mind eating the same thing meal after meal....I'm a creature of habit and always have my routine foods I eat in "normal" times.



I suspect ALL the options are high in sodium. Stouffers frozen dinners, for example, average around 1,000 mg which is half the daily sodium recommended for men.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Nick Farr said:


> I'd actually caution against that. Whereas mask compliance is basically 100% in the sleeper area and everyone is friendly, the few times I've gone to the lounge car for coffee have been unpleasant. People openly cussing in the observation car, being surly with the conductors, it was a totally different experience of what I'm used to. Just FYI, Amtrak is picking up Greyhound passengers between certain areas where Greyhound has suspended service.



On a YouTube video I saw people with their feet propped up on the Viewliner window, people dressed like bums. I remember hearing an announcement on a trip last year that passengers MUST WEAR SHOES when walking around the train! You have to tell people that! What kind of country have we become!


----------



## Rasputin

Ferroequinologist said:


> On a YouTube video I saw people with their feet propped up on the Viewliner window, people dressed like bums. I remember hearing an announcement on a trip last year that passengers MUST WEAR SHOES when walking around the train! You have to tell people that! What kind of country have we become!


On the trains that I have been on the announcement to wear shoes has been part of the standard safety announcement for 10 years or so. It is nothing new. I will sometimes take off my shoes when I am in my roomette but always wear them when going out of the roomette. Many people do not wear shoes inside their home and I think it just carries over that they think they should be able to do this on the train. I don't think it is a sign of a general cultural decline. 

However, belligerent, foul-mouthed drunks in the lounge car threatening to get into a fist fight with people in the presence of young children. I have encountered that and that is a sign of a general cultural decline.


----------



## tricia

Rasputin said:


> On the trains that I have been on the announcement to wear shoes has been part of the standard safety announcement for 10 years or so. It is nothing new. I will sometimes take off my shoes when I am in my roomette but always wear them when going out of the roomette. Many people do not wear shoes inside their home and I think it just carries over that they think they should be able to do this on the train. I don't think it is a sign of a general cultural decline.
> 
> However, belligerent, foul-mouthed drunks in the lounge car threatening to get into a fist fight with people in the presence of young children. I have encountered that and that is a sign of a general cultural decline.



If it goes unchallenged or persists it's a failure of on-board staff, particularly the conductor, who are responsible for ensuring a safe environment for all passengers, and empowered to put people off the train if they don't comply.


----------



## Rasputin

tricia said:


> If it goes unchallenged or persists it's a failure of on-board staff, particularly the conductor, who are responsible for ensuring a safe environment for all passengers, and empowered to put people off the train if they don't comply.


In that particular case, the belligerent drunks, who continued to act up after two warnings from the conductor, were put off the train at the next station where police were waiting. Not sure how long it would have continued if I had not reported the near fist fight to the LSA in the dining car who called the conductor.


----------



## tricia

Rasputin said:


> In that particular case, the belligerent drunks, who continued to act up after two warnings from the conductor, were put off the train at the next station where police were waiting. Not sure how long it would have continued if I had not reported the near fist fight to the LSA in the dining car who called the conductor.



Maybe this is a glass half-full vs half-empty thing, but I see your story as evidence of a functional "culture," not cultural decline: Passenger does his duty reporting bad behavior to the conductor, conductor does his/her job warning the culprits and then, when they don't take the warning, puts them off the train, thus restoring on-board civility and safety. 

Isn't that how it's supposed to work? There's never been, and never will be, a society without louts.


----------



## Rasputin

tricia said:


> Maybe this is a glass half-full vs half-empty thing, but I see your story as evidence of a functional "culture," not cultural decline: Passenger does his duty reporting bad behavior to the conductor, conductor does his/her job warning the culprits and then, when they don't take the warning, puts them off the train, thus restoring on-board civility and safety.
> 
> Isn't that how it's supposed to work? There's never been, and never will be, a society without louts.


I think I have been lucky. In 50 years of traveling by long distance trains I have never encountered a situation like this. In my opinion, the conductor was far too tolerant for far too long and appeared to promptly leave the lounge car after giving his warnings, leaving other passengers to endure the resurgent belligerence. Once the conductor finally made the decision to remove these people from the train, things fortunately fell into place quite rapidly.


----------



## ChicagoWren

I took the California Zephyr from Chicago to Richmond, CA over 4th of July weekend. We were actually encouraged to eat in the dining car, because that apparently will build a case for bringing back full-service dining. I did opt for the dining car for dinner 2 nights just to break up being in my roomette. They were great about social distancing, and we were all sat one booth apart. The flex meals were for the most part, fairly awful. The Asian noodle bowl was probably worse than some of the worst microwave meals i've had. Breakfast is solely continental (sugar, sugar, more sugar...no fruit available). I opted out except for coffee but I did break down and get the breakfast sandwich on my 3rd day. The Cajun shrimp/andouille was edible. For those long distance trips, where you're subject to the same 5 options on the menu for 3 days, it would be SO nice to have more options! I would've welcomed a salad. I tried to just find a sandwich in the cafe car on the 2nd day, but they had no sandwiches, no salads. I have read elsewhere on these threads that the Sleeper car prices should be reduced in lieu of the sad flex dining situation, and I agree.


----------



## Rasputin

ChicagoWren said:


> I took the California Zephyr from Chicago to Richmond, CA over 4th of July weekend.


Thanks for your report. Just curious, is the small store inside the station at Grand Jct., Colorado still operating? If so, and if they stock the right supplies their business could be really booming.


----------



## Nick Farr

Rasputin said:


> Thanks for your report. Just curious, is the small store inside the station at Grand Jct., Colorado still operating? If so, and if they stock the right supplies their business could be really booming.



It is. It's a stripped down convenience store that doesn't have much more than the cafe car and seems to be priced about the same.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Rasputin said:


> I think I have been lucky. In 50 years of traveling by long distance trains I have never encountered a situation like this. In my opinion, the conductor was far too tolerant for far too long and appeared to promptly leave the lounge car after giving his warnings, leaving other passengers to endure the resurgent belligerence. Once the conductor finally made the decision to remove these people from the train, things fortunately fell into place quite rapidly.


I think one clear and direct warning should have been enough. At that point you can tell if they're going to take it seriously or not. As soon as it's obvious they don't care or can't control themselves it's time to go. Not sure why this conductor felt they needed two chances but glad things ended on a positive note.


----------



## PVD

Lo and behold, I was preparing my online shopping list to pick up at a supermarket, and the Ken's 1.5 oz packets in a number of varieties have been added at Shoprite. Never noticed them before.


----------



## Bob Dylan

tricia said:


> Maybe this is a glass half-full vs half-empty thing, but I see your story as evidence of a functional "culture," not cultural decline: Passenger does his duty reporting bad behavior to the conductor, conductor does his/her job warning the culprits and then, when they don't take the warning, puts them off the train, thus restoring on-board civility and safety.
> 
> Isn't that how it's supposed to work? There's never been, and never will be, a society without louts.


True this, it's just that right now jerks feel free to do what they want because certain Political "Leaders" urge them on and set poor examples, along with certain Media.


----------



## Dakota 400

Bob Dylan said:


> True this, it's just that right now jerks feel free to do what they want because certain Political "Leaders" urge them on and set poor examples, along with certain Media.



It's the old "Monkey see, Monkey do" story.


----------



## Dakota 400

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think one clear and direct warning should have been enough. At that point you can tell if they're going to take it seriously or not. As soon as it's obvious they don't care or can't control themselves it's time to go. Not sure why this conductor felt they needed two chances but glad things ended on a positive note.



My experience on the SWC was of a conductor who was not tolerant. A drunk, loud, and abusive guest in the dining car got moved to the SSL until we arrived at the next station. (This happened soon after we had left Los Angeles, so that was not a long period of time.) When the train stopped, the guest became combative when the conductor and the trainman tried to remove him. Another rather burly guest came to their aid and got him down the steps and delivered to the police waiting. Not sure why the police didn't board the train to help the Amtrak staff.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

There’s a particular conductor who I’ve had on multiple city of New Orleans trips who seems to enjoy “busting” passengers who try to party on the way down to New Orleans. Some may find it a little over the top, but I’ve persobally found it entertaining to watch him confiscate private stock... visibly pour it down the drain in the upstairs lounge sink and then throw away the bottles.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

crescent-zephyr said:


> There’s a particular conductor who I’ve had on multiple city of New Orleans trips who seems to enjoy “busting” passengers who try to party on the way down to New Orleans. Some may find it a little over the top, but I’ve persobally found it entertaining to watch him confiscate private stock... visibly pour it down the drain in the upstairs lounge sink and then throw away the bottles.



These reports are making me feel that my next trip cross country is going to be like three days traveling with rough and tough bums - at a price of nearly $1,500 one way.


----------



## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> There’s a particular conductor who I’ve had on multiple city of New Orleans trips who seems to enjoy “busting” passengers who try to party on the way down to New Orleans. Some may find it a little over the top, but I’ve persobally found it entertaining to watch him confiscate private stock... visibly pour it down the drain in the upstairs lounge sink and then throw away the bottles.


Sounds like one particular former D&RGW conductor that came over to Amtrak...His run was Denver to Grand Junction, and I'll bet he averaged almost one 'ejection' per trip....


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> True this, it's just that right now jerks feel free to do what they want because certain Political "Leaders" urge them on and set poor examples, along with certain Media.


That behavior long preceded the idiots that encourage it and will long continue. Nothing has really changed. It's just that it is reported more often and in the toxic atmosphere of opposite sides with no middle, both sides use it as a stick to beat on the other side assisted by the plethora of "commentators" who now replace most reporters.


----------



## joelkfla

PVD said:


> Lo and behold, I was preparing my online shopping list to pick up at a supermarket, and the Ken's 1.5 oz packets in a number of varieties have been added at Shoprite. Never noticed them before.


Now that you mention it, I've seen them in the deli department of supermarkets that have a salad bar.


----------



## tricia

me_little_me said:


> That behavior long preceded the idiots that encourage it and will long continue. Nothing has really changed. It's just that it is reported more often and in the toxic atmosphere of opposite sides with no middle, both sides use it as a stick to beat on the other side assisted by the plethora of "commentators" who now replace most reporters.



Actually, I'm pretty sure that loutish behavior is more prevalent right now. Just yesterday, in the supermarket where I shop most often, when I said to someone in the aisle: "You need to be wearing a mask," the response was: "Mind your own business before you get hurt." Bullies have definitely been encouraged lately.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

tricia said:


> Actually, I'm pretty sure that loutish behavior is more prevalent right now. Just yesterday, in the supermarket where I shop most often, when I said to someone in the aisle: "You need to be wearing a mask," the response was: "Mind your own business before you get hurt." Bullies have definitely been encouraged lately.



I agree completely. 

Our country has never been known for its politeness. However, rudeness, viciousness, ignorance, and spite have not been considered virtues until recently. 

I may be wrong, and there may be exceptions, but I assume most polite and civilized countries have polite leaders? (And yes, they can be tough and firm but polite and courteous at the same time—decency is not weakness.)

I’m assuming the opposite is also true? That a rude, vicious, ignorant, spiteful leader would encourage the people he leads to behave like him?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

me_little_me said:


> Nothing has really changed.


One of the easiest ways to enable injustice is to quietly normalize hatred and aggression.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

A report on train orders said the crews on the Cardinal and Silver Metoer weren’t allowing sleeping car passengers to pick up food or eat in the lounge / diner. 

Not sure about accuracy, but interesting to note.


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> A report on train orders said the crews on the Cardinal and Silver Metoer weren’t allowing sleeping car passengers to pick up food or eat in the lounge / diner.
> 
> Not sure about accuracy, but interesting to note.


This could actually be worse than the lousy food. If I were expected to take a 24 hour ride locked up in a small sleeper compartment for the entire time, I would seriously think about another means of transportation. I can't see any reason that picking up a meal and eating it in the diner (socially distanced, of course) is such an order-of-magnitude increased risk that it justifies turning the train into some sort of rolling prison for sleeper passengers. After all, the coach passengers are all out in the open the whole trip, and they're eating, too, when they're hungry. So why can't the sleeper passengers, who pay a lot more, be allowed to do that, too?


----------



## me_little_me

noflyzone said:


> Never been in prison. What's it like, other than food?


Like being at home after shoulder surgery (in a sling) during Covid.

If you try and make a getaway, you might be killed (bullets vs virus)

You can't do things that you want when you want (bars vs sling)

You are in pain a lot of the time (beaten up by roommate vs constant shoulder pain)

You try and sneak some narcotics but risk getting caught (guards vs spouse)

You can't even shower or use the toilet in private (guards watching vs needing spouse to help)

You don't dare complain about the food (bread and water vs spouse telling you to make it yourself).

You'd better be good (tougher prison or LTC place)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17933
> 
> 
> Today I decided to try having dinner in the dining car. The new menus are also fully in effect so I decided to try the chicken marsala. "Seared chicken with cavatappi pasta, broccoli and carrots in a Marsala wine sauce"
> 
> The sauce in this one was not that salty, it had a lot but flat flavor. The vegetable medley was on par or slightly better than any frozen vegetable equivalent.
> 
> The chicken was terrible. Tough, dry and flavorless.
> 
> Side salad was great. Only problem: No plate for my dessert. They were out of the blondies.
> 
> View attachment 17934


Where's the chicken? I couldn't find it in the picture! How many blondies have you had so far on this trip?


----------



## IndyLions

crescent-zephyr said:


> A report on train orders said the crews on the Cardinal and Silver Metoer weren’t allowing sleeping car passengers to pick up food or eat in the lounge / diner.
> 
> Not sure about accuracy, but interesting to note.



As of a week ago, the Cardinal crews were allowing no lounge seating - period. Because there is a pandemic - I’m ok with that.

I had a really good sleeper attendant- a relatively young woman I had not met before and was impressed with. Good service, with a good attitude and work ethic. I tipped appropriately.

The lazy (coach?) attendant who sat in the lounge all day every day (as far as I could tell) - and whose lone job it was to shoo people back to their rooms so he could have the entire car to himself - he impressed me not so much.

But him I was familiar with - he was lazy way before there was a pandemic. He’s one of those they should just retire already.


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## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> Where's the chicken? I couldn't find it in the picture! How many blondies have you had so far on this trip?


I wish they would bring back the cheesecake. Isn't there any refrigeration? That brownie is hardly a dessert.


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## tricia

Sidney said:


> I wish they would bring back the cheesecake. Isn't there any refrigeration? That brownie is hardly a dessert.



They give you your dessert at breakfast. Nearly everything on the breakfast menu has added sugar on/in it.


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## Charles785

Do the labor unions that Amtrak has to deal with make it difficult to fire malingerers like the attendant IndyLions described?


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## railiner

Charles785 said:


> Do the labor unions that Amtrak has to deal with make it difficult to fire malingerers like the attendant IndyLions described?


Much more difficult, then without representation...there is a very involved disciplinary process in the labor agreement. There are several steps to take, depending on the seriousness of the charge. Firing an employee for being lazy is one of the more difficult violations to prosecute. There are different punishments, and appeal's processes, and a lot of documentation required...
On the other hand, employees are protected from unfounded discipline as a result of a personal issue between an employee and a supervisor, or account of some type of favoritism.


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## 20th Century Rider

railiner said:


> Much more difficult, then without representation...there is a very involved disciplinary process in the labor agreement. There are several steps to take, depending on the seriousness of the charge. Firing an employee for being lazy is one of the more difficult violations to prosecute. There are different punishments, and appeal's processes, and a lot of documentation required...
> On the other hand, employees are protected from unfounded discipline as a result of a personal issue between an employee and a supervisor, or account of some type of favoritism.


This is very hard to figure out because there are so many variables. Some of the most difficult and poorly serving SLC's seemed to be there without any kind of work ethic... they did nothing but play games on the computers in Roomette # 1. This game player who was working an almost empty car demanded that I get my own meal from the diner. When pressed, he got me the meal and practically threw it at me in my H room down below. I had to make my way up to request the included drink of ginger ale, and some utensils to eat it with. As I passed his room he was fully engrossed in a computer game. Did I mention that this sleeper was practically totally empty. 

Oh I did complain. But that apparently fell on deaf ears. Although I had documentation from the dining car attendant who had to re service the dinner request. BTW, after many attempts to get him to put my bed down, I did it myself. You bet I called Amtrak and complained about that overnight on the CSL... being a compassionate tip provider, I learned to just say no... to no service!


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## tgstubbs1

It sounds like it's possible that lazy attendant was given the job of monitoring the lounge car with a higher priority than customer requests. He might have felt resentful for someone trying to pull him away?


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## dlagrua

We got back from a Cardinal trip to Chicago and an Empire Builder trip to Whitefish on Aug 20th. The room attendants and food service service people were accommodating and very helpful. The sightseer lounge was open and almost everyone including ourselves chose to eat in the dining car that was also open. The Contemporary dining food was awful and after eating it for three days, gave me and my wife heartburn. Even the sol called desert was terrible. During our layovers in Chicago we went out for lunch in Greektown going and returning we picked up some fresh cooked food in the food court at Union Station. It was a welcome break to eat fresh cooked food
If Amtrak must give passengers those meals they can certainly do better than what they now have.


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## 20th Century Rider

dlagrua said:


> We got back from a Cardinal trip to Chicago and an Empire Builder trip to Whitefish on Aug 20th. The room attendants and food service service people were accommodating and very helpful. The sightseer lounge was open and almost everyone including ourselves chose to eat in the dining car that was also open. The Contemporary dining food was awful and after eating it for three days, gave me and my wife heartburn. Even the sol called desert was terrible. During our layovers in Chicago we went out for lunch in Greektown going and returning we picked up some fresh cooked food in the food court at Union Station. It was a welcome break to eat fresh cooked food
> If Amtrak must give passengers those meals they can certainly do better than what they now have.


As so many on this forum have pointed out... there is no excuse for the present sub-par food service... both the technology and facilities presently exist and are available now, during this covid crisis... to make the food more palatable. I will be on the Cardinal and EB routing soon and am rolling the dice with kosher food options... but am not expecting much.

BTW... free cancellation available on reservations made before September 30th... a one month extension. At least this is an area where Amtrak is being sensitive to the customers.


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## Palmetto

Oh, I think there's an excuse for the sub-par food, alright. The leadership at Amtrak wants to kill the LD trains, and sub-par food, while providing basic service, is part of the plan to do so. There's no reason that Amtrak could not serve better meals, such as those in Acela first class, except for one: they want to kill the service, pure and simple. Just my $0.02


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## 20th Century Rider

Palmetto said:


> Oh, I think there's an excuse for the sub-par food, alright. The leadership at Amtrak wants to kill the LD trains, and sub-par food, while providing basic service, is part of the plan to do so. There's no reason that Amtrak could not serve better meals, such as those in Acela first class, except for one: they want to kill the service, pure and simple. Just my $0.02


And I would agree that those flex meals aren't worth more than $0.02!


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## lordsigma

Palmetto said:


> Oh, I think there's an excuse for the sub-par food, alright. The leadership at Amtrak wants to kill the LD trains, and sub-par food, while providing basic service, is part of the plan to do so. There's no reason that Amtrak could not serve better meals, such as those in Acela first class, except for one: they want to kill the service, pure and simple. Just my $0.02


Pre-pandemic Acela first class meals would be a good alternative to what they are doing with flex dining. Sadly even Acela First Class has not escaped downgrades. The Acela FC food has been downgraded to what sounds like a boxed snack due to the pandemic. Hopefully the meals will return eventually.


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## Nick Farr

What are they doing on the Auto Train?


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## lordsigma

Nick Farr said:


> What are they doing on the Auto Train?


Not flex dining. Same old Auto Train meals. Recent trip reports have indicated they are requiring you to take your meal in your room.


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## John-MCPO-USN

Wrapped up a trip on CZ yesterday (1105, DEN->SAC), and the food was not the worst I ever had - but certainly was far from enjoyable. Only 5 tables being used in diner.....no food service to rooms....on CZ they alternated availability each day (so it wasn;t the full flex menu each day).  Riding CS down to LA today, and CS from LA->SEA on Thursday - then EB across to CHI.....will post if anything is different on those routes. I have a grocery bag-o-snacks with me (but I do that on each journey) but more enjoyable this go-round.


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## Nick Farr

John-MCPO-USN said:


> .....no food service to rooms....



This part is infuriating. It seems like all these things are subject to the whim of the LSA.


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## tricia

John-MCPO-USN said:


> Wrapped up a trip on CZ yesterday (1105, DEN->SAC), and the food was not the worst I ever had - but certainly was far from enjoyable. Only 5 tables being used in diner.....no food service to rooms....on CZ they alternated availability each day (so it wasn;t the full flex menu each day). Riding CS down to LA today, and CS from LA->SEA on Thursday - then EB across to CHI.....will post if anything is different on those routes. I have a grocery bag-o-snacks with me (but I do that on each journey) but more enjoyable this go-round.



It's not only contrary to longstanding Amtrak policy (that your SCA will bring meals to you in your room if you ask) but also completely outrageous during a pandemic to compel passengers to mingle in a common area. It's near-certain that some (many? most?) passengers who've booked sleeper accommodations during the pandemic have done so at least partly for the relative safety that comes with self-isolating in a private room. 

I hope you'll send an email to Amtrak about this refusal to deliver food to rooms. Ditto the made-up practice of limiting the availability of items on the already too-limited flex menu. Management might or might not be willing to do anything about enforcing their own rules, but they simply can't if they don't know what's going on.


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## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Pre-pandemic Acela first class meals would be a good alternative to what they are doing with flex dining. Sadly even Acela First Class has not escaped downgrades. The Acela FC food has been downgraded to what sounds like a boxed snack due to the pandemic. Hopefully the meals will return eventually.


Only time will tell... but this is a big revenue booster for Amtrak... if anything actually returns, it'll be here...


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## dlagrua

On a recent Cardinal trip they required you to bring your food to your room. On the two Empire builder trips to Whitefish this month the dining car was open and that's where we sat down. It was a welcome refreshing break from being cooped up in our bedroom the entire trip.


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## Anderson

dlagrua said:


> On a recent Cardinal trip they required you to bring your food to your room. On the two Empire builder trips to Whitefish this month the dining car was open and that's where we sat down. It was a welcome refreshing break from being cooped up in our bedroom the entire trip.


My instinct on this is that on the two-night trains, trying to compel pax to stay in their rooms for the whole 48 hours or so has been accepted as a losing proposition.


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## 20th Century Rider

Anderson said:


> My instinct on this is that on the two-night trains, trying to compel pax to stay in their rooms for the whole 48 hours or so has been accepted as a losing proposition.


Kind-a like an 'incarceration proposition...' and that along with the dismal food which has made some ill... as was the case in a recent post, defeats the entire purpose of travel by rail. Very sad... hope things improve.


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## Palmetto

Nick Farr said:


> This part is infuriating. It seems like all these things are subject to the whim of the LSA.



Correct. Because there is no accountability on board anymore, as I've stated in other threads. Heck, even my city bus system had spotters riding the system. Anyone know what the airlines do in this regard?


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## 20th Century Rider

John-MCPO-USN said:


> Wrapped up a trip on CZ yesterday (1105, DEN->SAC), and the food was not the worst I ever had - but certainly was far from enjoyable. Only 5 tables being used in diner.....no food service to rooms....on CZ they alternated availability each day (so it wasn;t the full flex menu each day). Riding CS down to LA today, and CS from LA->SEA on Thursday - then EB across to CHI.....will post if anything is different on those routes. I have a grocery bag-o-snacks with me (but I do that on each journey) but more enjoyable this go-round.


It makes me angry to see you and any other passenger get treated like this... what! no food service to your room? Does that go against policy? What's with that SCA??? Flex menu is restrictive enough... but can't figure what extra effort was necessary to at least make all items available each day??? I am assuming coffee not available in the sleeper... did your SCA offer to bring you coffee in the morning? [I think I know the answer to that... it's what Palmetto said...


Palmetto said:


> Because there is no accountability on board anymore


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## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> This part is infuriating. It seems like all these things are subject to the whim of the LSA.



I thought that you said Amtrak shouldn’t cater to passengers who expect good service? Seems like this is right in line with the new business plan to attract people who don’t care about food or service!


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought that you said Amtrak shouldn’t cater to passengers who expect good service? Seems like this is right in line with the new business plan to attract people who don’t care about food or service!


It's a perfect plan indeed... since everyone does in some way have an interest in food and service when paying so much for LD sleeper accommodations... no one will will ride. Then our government... which oversees our national transportation infrastructure... will indeed be 'justified' for discontinuing all LD service.


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## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I thought that you said Amtrak shouldn’t cater to passengers who expect good service? Seems like this is right in line with the new business plan to attract people who don’t care about food or service!



There's good service, consistent service and then there's berating passengers contrary to policy because you feel like it.

The latter of those three is unacceptable and absolutely not what I was advocating for. I think you knew that, but went for the cheap shot ad hominem attack anyway. Shame on you.

I thought we were all on the same team, trying to save LD trains.


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## Nick Farr

Anderson said:


> My instinct on this is that on the two-night trains, trying to compel pax to stay in their rooms for the whole 48 hours or so has been accepted as a losing proposition.



It's kind of ridiculous the Dinette isn't at least partially open. Aren't there SCAs to bring your meals to you?


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## 20th Century Rider

It's probably fair to say that we all feel mucho frustration with an intolerable litany of bad news... the pandemic is coinciding with a long and gradual decline in service... the first abrupt disappointment was when flex dining was introduced to eastern one nighter trains... then the pandemic hit. Then flex was expanded to all LD trains. Staff morale on the trains also seems to be nosediving... resulting in even more disappointing service... all this from forum reports!

Folks are discouraged and attempting to come up with optimistic predictions and opinionated solutions. Some good news is eagerly anticipated and will certainly be well received. Amtrak administration isn't knowingly in touch with its most loyal customers, and it's not focused on future planning. No one really seems to have an answer for, "What's next?"


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## Nick Farr

20th Century Rider said:


> Folks are discouraged and attempting to come up with optimistic predictions and opinionated solutions. Some good news is eagerly anticipated and will certainly be well received. Amtrak administration isn't knowingly in touch with its most loyal customers, and it's not focused on future planning. No one really seems to have an answer for, "What's next?"



I think we have some pretty good answers here, I'm just wondering how to get people to pay attention.


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## Devil's Advocate

John-MCPO-USN said:


> Only 5 tables being used in diner.....no food service to rooms.


I don't think passengers should be forced to eat meals in their room but I also don't think they should be stuck eating in the diner during a pandemic. Although this is asking a lot I do hope you report this situation to Amtrak (by calling and asking for customer relations) so it can be addressed and rectified for the benefit of other passengers.



Palmetto said:


> Correct. Because there is no accountability on board anymore, as I've stated in other threads. Heck, even my city bus system had spotters riding the system. Anyone know what the airlines do in this regard?


On long haul haul flights airlines have a position known as the _purser_ who is in charge of service staff. They are tasked with ensuring consistent service and resolving or documenting any issues that may arrive. Amtrak used to have a similar position but got rid of it years ago and put the conductor in charge of service staff. This puts both the customer and the conductor in an awkward and unhelpful situation.


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## jiml

Palmetto said:


> Correct. Because there is no accountability on board anymore, as I've stated in other threads. Heck, even my city bus system had spotters riding the system. Anyone know what the airlines do in this regard?


One airline I'm directly familiar with used to contact high-tier frequent fliers regarding an upcoming trip with an offer of additional benefits or miles for filling out a very detailed survey. The compensation was never less than 25K miles (enough for a domestic round-trip) and frequently more. Well worth it.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> One airline I'm directly familiar with used to contact high-tier frequent fliers regarding an upcoming trip with an offer of additional benefits or miles for filling out a very detailed survey. The compensation was never less than 25K miles (enough for a domestic round-trip) and frequently more. Well worth it.


As others have noted on this Forum through the years, Amtrak surveys sent out to riders are basically worthless due to the format that is used, and the lack of the ability to actually point out the good and the bad that occurred during your journey.


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## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> No one really seems to have an answer for, "What's next?"



This applies not just to Amtrak, but to so many issues and concerns in 2020.


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## Asher

This has to have an impact.
Amtrak is planning to lay off up to 20 percent of its workforce by *October* due to severe financial impacts caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. Amtrak President and CEO Bill Flynn said that the cuts ...


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## John-MCPO-USN

OK - sooo, on the CS from SAC->LA on Monday, entire menu was available, with 3 options (eat at table, delivery to room by SCA or pick-up in diner and you bring it back to your room to eat). Same menu (of course), but much better crew than CZ. And, as far as car cleanliness goes - the CZ sleeper was definitely not clean (by normal standards....much less COVID), but the CS sleeper was (and the SCA was dedicated to his role and very engaged). Will post a report on the NB CS on Thursday (LA->SEA), and then 3 days on the EB to CHI on Sat->Mon.....


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## John-MCPO-USN

Well - #14 yesterday/today was much better (service wise) than the CZ. And, on #14, no social distancing in the Diner....so, no wait list (no shared tables - but, no “Only 4 tables in the diner” that CZ was running). Same food, but the offer to deliver was made at the beginning of each meal. And, CZ would not permit sleeper passengers from using the tables during non-meal hours - the CS (both 11 and 14) had no problem with sleeper pax using the tables (which several of us did). Zero freight traffic on the Coast Sub (from LA to Watsonville Jct - z-e-r-o....not even a daylight manifest). So, far all of my journey has been early at final destination. #8 over to CHI starting tomorrow.


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## John-MCPO-USN

#8 today - and the EB is by far the best service/cleanliness (half-full dining car, and very willing to deliver meals to room if preferred - outstanding service by both Dining and SCA crew).....and this eastbound SEA crew was just notified all but one member was furloughed.....so a rough trip this journey. Also, passenger count on all the trips this week have been dismal (in both the sleepers and coach).....pretty sad....but, happy to have made the trip before the 3x-a-week service. After 8 days on the rails - I will not eat a TV dinner type meal for at least 6mos - maybe longer...........


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## MARC Rider

TheCrescent said:


> * No fresh fruit (due to Covid-19)
> * Prepackaged oatmeal with hot water stirred in



1. I wonder if it's really Covid 19 that's keeping the fresh fruit away. Not just on Amtrak, but in a lot of foodservice, I'm seeing Covid-19 as an excuse to downgrade things. For example, at some convenience stores, they make you order the fountain drinks and coffee, whereas at others you can still freely use the self serve. Then some only hand out packets of sugar and cream, whereas others let you take your own, and even pour cream from a pitcher. These are all in different places in the same state, same county, so it's the same health department and sanitation rules. I suspect that a lot of these cutbacks are more to save money rather than protect your health. Given that Amtrak's business has taken such a hit, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the reason.

2. All oatmeal is made with "hot water stirred in." As far as I know, there's no nutritional difference between instant oatmeal and the kind you have to cook for a few minutes. I used to always use the instant when I went backpacking. The problem with flex dining instant oatmeal is (a) they don't provide plain oatmeal, and the flavored varieties are sugar bombs. I like sugar in my oatmeal, but one teaspoon in plenty. (b) They are not the regular portion sizes, they are small mini-cups. Same with the yogurt. You really need two of them, which is what one kind LSA on the Cardinal did for me. They really ought to have bagels and cream cheese, like they have in the NEC cafe cars, but I'm not sure that bagels are available on the National cafe car menu.


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## flitcraft

John-MCPO-USN said:


> ...happy to have made the trip before the 3x-a-week service. After 8 days on the rails - I will not eat a TV dinner type meal for at least 6mos - maybe longer........



John, thanks so much for taking the time to report on the practices on 3 of the LD trains. It's very helpful as folks decide when and whether to travel on Amtrak. And I don't blame you one bit for wanting real food for at least the next 6 months! We all deserve it, but you who took one for the team most of all!


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## flitcraft

MARC Rider said:


> I wonder if it's really Covid 19 that's keeping the fresh fruit away.


I call shenanigans on that excuse, too. Fresh fruit like bananas and oranges would be perfectly safe--just give the outsides a quick wash and peel away. Frankly, I wouldn't even bother with that, given that it appears that COVID isn't transmitted by food. I'd peel, then clean my hands with hand sanitizer just in case the exterior peel was contaminated, then chow down on the nice clean interior of the fruit with my clean, sanitized hands. Given the preponderance of starch and fat in the flex fare, and the resized micro-salads, passengers deserve some fresh fruits with fibre on an LD trip.


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## 20th Century Rider

flitcraft said:


> I call shenanigans on that excuse, too. Fresh fruit like bananas and oranges would be perfectly safe--just give the outsides a quick wash and peel away. Frankly, I wouldn't even bother with that, given that it appears that COVID isn't transmitted by food. I'd peel, then clean my hands with hand sanitizer just in case the exterior peel was contaminated, then chow down on the nice clean interior of the fruit with my clean, sanitized hands. Given the preponderance of starch and fat in the flex fare, and the resized micro-salads, passengers deserve some fresh fruits with fibre on an LD trip.


Amen to that! You are right on point when you call all of this negligence inexcusable... so many posts are concerned about the ill heath effects of the over processed tasteless food and the lack of simple fruits and vegetables... especially on cross country trips where many complain about indigestion and lack of regularity. No excuses on being 'medically specific.' They just don't want to spend the money!


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## Sparky

>>It's funny how the pasta and meatballs started as the kids' meal, but is the one that most complain about the least. I noted on the latest menu that it's now included with the others (not specifically called kids'). << If you ask for two heated rolls with that, you can make two small passable meatball sandwiches.


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## MARC Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Amen to that! You are right on point when you call all of this negligence inexcusable... so many posts are concerned about the ill heath effects of the over processed tasteless food and the lack of simple fruits and vegetables... especially on cross country trips where many complain about indigestion and lack of regularity. No excuses on being 'medically specific.' They just don't want to spend the money!


They could at least make available single-serving packets of Metamucil, which can be easily mixed with water by the passenger.


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## me_little_me

flitcraft said:


> I call shenanigans on that excuse, too. Fresh fruit like bananas and oranges would be perfectly safe--just give the outsides a quick wash and peel away. Frankly, I wouldn't even bother with that, given that it appears that COVID isn't transmitted by food. I'd peel, then clean my hands with hand sanitizer just in case the exterior peel was contaminated, then chow down on the nice clean interior of the fruit with my clean, sanitized hands. Given the preponderance of starch and fat in the flex fare, and the resized micro-salads, passengers deserve some fresh fruits with fibre on an LD trip.


Fruits can be individually packaged as can fresh fruit cocktail. Everything today is blamed on Covid.


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## tgstubbs1

me_little_me said:


> Fruits can be individually packaged as can fresh fruit cocktail. Everything today is blamed on Covid.


I went to the store this morning. There are still things they are out of. The virus did have some effect on the food supply.


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## flitcraft

tgstubbs1 said:


> I went to the store this morning. There are still things they are out of. The virus did have some effect on the food supply.


True, though a lot of the things that vanished early on--rice, beans, flour, yeast, pasta, chicken, and the like--are back now, at least in the stores I shop from. Powdered milk still seems to be hard to get, though if you use it in baking, the King Arthur website has it in stock (it's a little pricey for making up by the gallon for drinking!) Mostly, though, people can get almost all of what they want in grocery stores - again, speaking only of my experience in Seattle. Things may be tougher in places like Alaska, Hawaii, etc. where the cancellation of so many flights has probably affected the food chain substantially.

I think the basic point stands, though. Fresh fruit never disappeared from stores, even during the height of panic-hoarding. For Amtrak to claim that they've stopped serving it on LD trains because of COVID 19 doesn't even pass the laugh test.


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## MARC Rider

Our local grocery store has had cut fruit for sale all through this business. No fruit in the cafe car on 172 this morning.


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## Anderson

I've noticed airlines doing some similar stuff. Unusually for me, I've got nothing but vitriol for Delta's OBS situation. There is a _lot_ of cost-cutting going on under the banner of "But...pandemic!"

At this stage I'm just gonna plan to drive anywhere I'm going in the next year or so. Amtrak can call me when they get the situation un-frakked.


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## tricia

The problem with driving everywhere in the current pandemic is that you have to trust that everyone who provides you with food and shelter and gas along the way is observing reasonably safe infectious-disease protocols. Depending on how far you're going, and through which states, an Amtrak sleeping car can look like a much safer alternative.

Even though the current food on board is pretty awful. I agree that much of that awfulness is "cost-cutting going on under the banner of 'but ... pandemic!' "


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## jiml

Anderson said:


> I've noticed airlines doing some similar stuff. Unusually for me, I've got nothing but vitriol for Delta's OBS situation. There is a _lot_ of cost-cutting going on under the banner of "But...pandemic!"


Unfortunately that's become the rallying cry for cost-cutting (and by proxy staff reduction) and bad customer service everywhere - not just in the travel industries.


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## Devil's Advocate

Covid had a serious impact on meat production and factory workers who were forced to choose between their safety and a paycheck. My local stores suffered weeks of empty meat shelves despite living in a state known for widespread raising and ranching. Meanwhile domestic and regional fruits were spared serious interruptions as they presumably required little or no processing in an enclosed environment. So far as I'm aware there is little if any evidence that Covid is spread by typical surface contact with fruit. Even if it was most fruit features a surface strong enough to be cleaned, peeled, or cut away before eating. If Amtrak is blaming lack of fruit on Covid safety I'd like to see what information they're basing that claim upon.


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## Anderson

jiml said:


> Unfortunately that's become the rallying cry for cost-cutting (and by proxy staff reduction) and bad customer service everywhere - not just in the travel industries.


True, and it's really reached a "cry wolf" point. For Delta, for example: I'll easily buy that consolidating to a single-tray meal service is a pandemic adjustment. I will _not_ buy that discontinuing meal service on long domestic flights (mainly Transcons) and only offering non-perishable snack packs or, somewhat more egregiously, cutting soft drinks (but not beer/wine) counts.

(Similarly egregious is Marriott not forcing hotels to at _least _post what amenities they will/won't be offering on the website rather than just doing a mic drop on "suspending brand standards". Having to guess which hotel offers daily housekeeping and which one only offers it once a week is neither a fun exercise nor appropriate.)

But to the broader issue, the "blame the pandemic" excuse really has me thoroughly out of patience (especially when dealing with things like being advised of a "longer than normal wait time, please use this other option" only to be connected through immediately) and leaves me less inclined to cut slack for "legitimate" issues.


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## jiml

Anderson said:


> (Similarly egregious is Marriott not forcing hotels to at _least _post what amenities they will/won't be offering on the website rather than just doing a mic drop on "suspending brand standards". Having to guess which hotel offers daily housekeeping and which one only offers it once a week is neither a fun exercise nor appropriate.)


I won't be going further off-topic other than to agree that you are preaching to the proverbial choir. You're probably also a member of that "other" website that posts about such things, with long-term Marriott status. I'm with you on both. Very frustrating.


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## Devil's Advocate

You gotta love how nearly every service and amenity reduction seems to include some vague reference to the pandemic even if it has no obvious connection and makes no rational sense.

Mainstreet: The pandemic is responsible for everything you don't like about our new service standards.
Wallstreet: Pandemic? Never heard of her. Now stop asking while we watch computers play casino.
Job Market: We're going to look back on the great recession fondly by the time this is finally over.
Government: Those who vote twice get the next miracle cure for half price along with a free amulet.
Medical Experts: If you want a thriving economy everyone has to play their role in real containment.


----------



## tgstubbs1

Maybe check these out for a carry on.


*"Jetblue*
Fans of Jetblue cheese snack trays can enjoy a selection of Emmi Roth’s best-selling cheeses with crackers, almonds and dried cherries for half the price they are usually offered on airlines. They are available from Imperfect Foods, which aims to eliminate food waste and support farmers and food purveyors when it comes to excess product."


----------



## caravanman

I came across a recent youtube video, made in July under the Covid-19 situation, of an Empire Builder trip from Chicago to Glacier Park.
The guy mentions a few small things that are not quite right, such as sleepers having coffee available 24/7 before the virus appeared, but the main thing is he does show the current social distancing, and meals service for breakfast, lunch and dinner...
Empire Builder July 2020 trip...


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## mlanoue

I received a post card in the mail from this company the other day and took a look. 

Freshly - Plans & Menu

Haven't tried them yet, but it seems like if their meals are any good, then there could be hope for decent meals without a chef on trains. These are pre-cooked and, upon first glance, seem a bit healthier than Flexible dining. (I haven't had flexible dining yet, but it seems like even those who think it's okay agree there is room for improvement).


----------



## Nick Farr

Devil's Advocate said:


> If Amtrak is blaming lack of fruit on Covid safety I'd like to see what information they're basing that claim upon.



Mostly supply issues combined with a lack of proper facilities to sanitize/serve it on board as part of meal presentation.


----------



## Nick Farr

me_little_me said:


> Fruits can be individually packaged as can fresh fruit cocktail. Everything today is blamed on Covid.



Worst case, these have a less than 24 hour shelf life, which means they couldn't be used on Western Trains.

It is possible to create options to extend that, but the cost is high and their supplier is geared to provide crates of frozen meals with an indefinite shelf life and side salads that have maybe a week-long shelf life and are frost resistant.


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## Devil's Advocate

Devil's Advocate said:


> If Amtrak is blaming lack of fruit on Covid safety I'd like to see what information they're basing that claim upon.





Nick Farr said:


> Mostly supply issues combined with a lack of proper facilities to sanitize/serve it on board as part of meal presentation.


What supply issues? I was still able to purchase fresh fruit back when the meat aisles were empty, when the pantry goods were ransacked, and our humble TP was MIA. Many fruits can be peeled rather than washed (bananas, oranges, grapefruit, tangelos, kiwis, etc.) while others can be cleaned and bagged for easy packing and serving (apples, peaches, plums, cherries, grapes, etc). Presentation can be as simple as placing fruit into a bowl next to tongs and gloves.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Worst case, these have a less than 24 hour shelf life, which means they couldn't be used on Western Trains.
> 
> It is possible to create options to extend that, but the cost is high and their supplier is geared to provide crates of frozen meals with an indefinite shelf life and side salads that have maybe a week-long shelf life and are frost resistant.



Long distance trains have had fresh fruit available for decades. I’m not sure why you think spinach and apples and other fresh produce magically has a 1 day shelf life when you place it on a train.


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## jiml

caravanman said:


> I came across a recent youtube video, made in July under the Covid-19 situation, of an Empire Builder trip from Chicago to Glacier Park.
> The guy mentions a few small things that are not quite right, such as sleepers having coffee available 24/7 before the virus appeared, but the main thing is he does show the current social distancing, and meals service for breakfast, lunch and dinner...
> Empire Builder July 2020 trip...


That's Jeb Brooks - who many frequent fliers are quite familiar with. I found his report to be fairly objective and almost flattering to Amtrak in the current situation.


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## neroden

MARC Rider said:


> The problem with flex dining instant oatmeal is (a) they don't provide plain oatmeal, and the flavored varieties are sugar bombs.



Yep. This is why I had to bring my own instant oatmeal. It's just *pathetic* that Amtrak can't provide plain oatmeal.


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## neroden

mlanoue said:


> I received a post card in the mail from this company the other day and took a look.
> 
> Freshly - Plans & Menu
> 
> Haven't tried them yet, but it seems like if their meals are any good, then there could be hope for decent meals without a chef on trains. These are pre-cooked and, upon first glance, seem a bit healthier than Flexible dining. (I haven't had flexible dining yet, but it seems like even those who think it's okay agree there is room for improvement).


Chef Madi Butler, who has substantial experience in the industry, has pointed out that there are *plenty* of options for high-quality prepackaged meals -- Amtrak is just choosing to provide garbage.


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## reefgeek

I just finished a cross-country trip, taking the Zephyr and then the Cardinal. I ate pretty much every meal on the menu. I think the hot plates are pretty good. Maybe I'm not a gourmet. The shrimp with lobster (cream) sauce was tasty, as was the braised beef. It helps if they are not cooked to death, I had that a couple times. The one entree that was inedible was the shrimp creole, that was so salty it burned. I like salt and usually add it to food, that was too much. For breakfast I had the hot breakfast sandwich and it was fine. The tiny salads are laughable. They switched to smaller salad dressing packets, like ketchup packets, and so there are exactly two choices--Italian or ranch. Every single time. No more Paul Newman. The desert is always a blondie or a brownie, again and again. I think there was vanilla pudding on train 6.
The main problem with the entrees is that they are all the same in a way--some protein, gloppy sauce, and starch combo. By the time I got to Chicago, I had a good burger and fries and thought that was the best thing I ever tasted.
One other thing is that there are fewer choices on the Cardinal and they are prepared differently somehow. I have had worse food on the Cardinal, pre-pandemic.


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## crescent-zephyr

reefgeek said:


> The shrimp with lobster (cream) sauce was tasty, as was the braised beef. It helps if they are not cooked to death, I had that a couple times. The one entree that was inedible was the shrimp creole, that was so salty it burned. I like salt and usually add it to food, that was too much.



I hadn’t thought about the cooking times... for me I thought the complete opposite of the beef and shrimp creole, the shrimp was fine, the beef itself was quite tender but too salty for me to want to eat. I’m wondering if the cooking time could affect the saltiness? Like perhaps if some of the sauce cooks off the dish absorbs more salt?


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## Sidney

I just completed a circle trip on the Texas Eagle to LA and back on the SW Chief to Chicago. I alternated between the shrimp in lobster sauce and the pasta. I had the beef once and it was too tough to eat. The Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwich makes the Egg McMuffin and Burger King crossanwich feel like gourmet meals. i took coach back from Chicago and actually looked forward to the bagel and cream cheese and cheeseburger. Why doesn't Amtrak give the sleeper passenger a choice of stuff from the cafe car? It certainly breaks the monotony of the sameness of the flexible menu. I don't think full service dining is ever going to return. I hope I'm wrong.


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## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> I just completed a circle trip on the Texas Eagle to LA and back on the SW Chief to Chicago. I alternated between the shrimp in lobster sauce and the pasta. I had the beef once and it was too tough to eat. The Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwich makes the Egg McMuffin and Burger King crossanwich feel like gourmet meals. i took coach back from Chicago and actually looked forward to the bagel and cream cheese and cheeseburger. Why doesn't Amtrak give the sleeper passenger a choice of stuff from the cafe car? It certainly breaks the monotony of the sameness of the flexible menu. I don't think full service dining is ever going to return. I hope I'm wrong.



The cafe menu is indeed an upgrade in my opinion. It’s almost as if someone deliberately chose the worst possible meals.... hmm...


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## 1976steve

Took the Texas Eagle from Cleburne to Philadelphia September 12. Upon boarding, Andre', SCA offered me lunch and/or drink even though it was nearly 2:00 pm. I declined. For supper I was offered various seating times or the option to eat in my room. I ate in the diner there was 1 other rider in the diner while I was eating at 6:00 pm. I had the Red wine braised beef, salad is small I found the meal to be tasty a 7 on scale of 1-10. I declined the dessert,too much sugar. The dining car attendant was pleasant and efficient during all meals. For breakfast the next morning I opted out due to no items on the menu without cheese or loads of sugar. I went up to the Arch City Deli in St Louis as we arrived 50 minutes early. I ordered a sandwich with sausage only, it wasn't bad but risky if train is on schedule. For lunch I chose the Shrimp in Lobster Sauce it also was acceptable another 7 in my opinion. That night on the Capitol Limited we were not offered the option to eat in the diner possibly because of the departure being at 6:40 PM. Had the Braised beef again, delivered by SCA. Rated a 7 again. Both trains offered all menu items when I ordered. Overall not the same as past dining car experiences, portions get really small if you eat the meals but not the carbs that come with it, but food is ok. For a person with any dietary limits especially diabetics the menu is limiting be prepared to fend for yourself if you don't or can't vary from your daily needs. I mean really, not a single breakfast sandwich on the train without cheese and no other breakfast items that fits into a low sugar/ carb diet. Overall good trip after departing 50 minutes late, arrived in Chicago a little early. Capitol Limited and Pennsylvanian pretty close to on schedule. I would not let the meals deter me from riding but would take snacks/food with me to cover what i need in addition to what they offer. Ride while you can flex dining or not, who knows what the future will bring. I had just started riding PV trips about 2 years before the rules changed now it's tough to find any PV trips, Via rail, who knows if we will ever get back into Canada. Do it before it's too late


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## desertflyer

We took the CZ from EMY-SLC on Saturday 9/19. The crew tried their best to not mention in-room eating options. When I asked the dining car attendant if there was an option for pickup, he said I had to talk to my sleeping car attendant. I thought this was odd, but in the end we were able to get both meals in our roomette. The menu on the train had one or two fewer options than the one you can find on Amtrak's website.

Meal 1 (Lunch)
I had the vegetarian enchiladas and she had the chicken marsala. Both came with a side salad and room temp roll with butter. Only option was Italian salad dressing. Both dishes were edible and somewhat bland, nothing awful. She didn't like the broccoli hers, said it tasted off (she normally really enjoys broccoli). I felt like the portion was a little small.






Meal #2 (dinner)
Same options as lunch. I had the shrimp in lobster sauce, she again had the chicken marsala. She said the broccoli was still bad. The shrimp and lobster sauce were good except it was a TON of sauce with a little rice floating around in it. The vegetables were a little bland. This time we had the choice of ranch or Italian dressing for the salad. Same room temp roll on the side. Dessert was a packaged brownie, no options.


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## joelkfla

desertflyer said:


> We took the CZ from EMY-SLC on Saturday 9/19. The crew tried their best to not mention in-room eating options. When I asked the dining car attendant if there was an option for pickup, he said I had to talk to my sleeping car attendant. I thought this was odd, but in the end we were able to get both meals in our roomette. The menu on the train had one or two fewer options than the one you can find on Amtrak's website.
> 
> Meal 1 (Lunch)
> I had the vegetarian enchiladas and she had the chicken marsala. Both came with a side salad and room temp roll with butter. Only option was Italian salad dressing. Both dishes were edible and somewhat bland, nothing awful. She didn't like the broccoli hers, said it tasted off (she normally really enjoys broccoli). I felt like the portion was a little small.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meal #2 (dinner)
> Same options as lunch. I had the shrimp in lobster sauce, she again had the chicken marsala. She said the broccoli was still bad. The shrimp and lobster sauce were good except it was a TON of sauce with a little rice floating around in it. The vegetables were a little bland. This time we had the choice of ranch or Italian dressing for the salad. Same room temp roll on the side. Dessert was a packaged brownie, no options.


The rolls look bigger than the salad. 

But at least you got plenty of butter (if that's what those little blue thingies are.)


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## MilwaukeeRoadLover

desertflyer said:


> We took the CZ from EMY-SLC on Saturday 9/19. The crew tried their best to not mention in-room eating options. When I asked the dining car attendant if there was an option for pickup, he said I had to talk to my sleeping car attendant. I thought this was odd, but in the end we were able to get both meals in our roomette. The menu on the train had one or two fewer options than the one you can find on Amtrak's website.
> 
> Meal 1 (Lunch)
> I had the vegetarian enchiladas and she had the chicken marsala. Both came with a side salad and room temp roll with butter. Only option was Italian salad dressing. Both dishes were edible and somewhat bland, nothing awful. She didn't like the broccoli hers, said it tasted off (she normally really enjoys broccoli). I felt like the portion was a little small.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meal #2 (dinner)
> Same options as lunch. I had the shrimp in lobster sauce, she again had the chicken marsala. She said the broccoli was still bad. The shrimp and lobster sauce were good except it was a TON of sauce with a little rice floating around in it. The vegetables were a little bland. This time we had the choice of ranch or Italian dressing for the salad. Same room temp roll on the side. Dessert was a packaged brownie, no options.


Wow. I'm sorry you had this experience. We just came back from the Empire Builder. We also thought the chicken marsala bland and the chicken fettuccine less so. Attendant showered us with butter, splenda, desserts, offered both options for dressing, and reminded us we could have seconds. If the menus are the same, why is service so different?

I had wondered if we should have taken CZ or EB.


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## crescent-zephyr

MilwaukeeRoadLover said:


> I had wondered if we should have taken CZ or EB.



The zephyr has the better scenery, but the builder has more consistently good crews. Just a few years ago the builder was one of the few trains that kept the China and glassware in the diner and they had a free wine tasting for sleeping car passengers with wines from Washington and Oregon. 

All of the above based on my experiences of course, Amtrak has inconsistent down to a science!


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## Dakota 400

joelkfla said:


> The rolls look bigger than the salad.
> 
> But at least you got plenty of butter (if that's what those little blue thingies are.)



The packets of salad dressing certainly are small. I wonder, even with the salads being so small, if it really is enough dressing for one salad.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> The packets of salad dressing certainly are small. I wonder, even with the salads being so small, if it really is enough dressing for one salad.



You should be able to ask for additional packets. 

The quality is a big downgrade though. The Italian contains high fructose corn syrup and the ranch includes corn syrup. The Newman’s dressing don’t have corn syrup but rather sugar and the previously available balsamic vinaigrette had a very low amount of sugar.


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## Asher

Devil's Advocate said:


> What supply issues? I was still able to purchase fresh fruit back when the meat aisles were empty, when the pantry goods were ransacked, and our humble TP was MIA. Many fruits can be peeled rather than washed (bananas, oranges, grapefruit, tangelos, kiwis, etc.) while others can be cleaned and bagged for easy packing and serving (apples, peaches, plums, cherries, grapes, etc). Presentation can be as simple as placing fruit into a bowl next to tongs and gloves.


 I’m not to hep on taking fruit or vegetables out of a bowl when I don’t know who’s been groping through it. Gloves, Tong’s. Face mask, whatever.


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## crescent-zephyr

anumberone said:


> I’m not to hep on taking fruit or vegetables out of a bowl when I don’t know who’s been groping through it. Gloves, Tong’s. Face mask, whatever.



Are you just not eating fresh fruits and vegetables right now? Growing your own?


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## MilwaukeeRoadLover

Dakota 400 said:


> The packets of salad dressing certainly are small. I wonder, even with the salads being so small, if it really is enough dressing for one salad.


You must be referring to the Heinz packets. The Paul Newman packets on a recent trip were huge


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## tricia

On #1, from Louisiana to AZ, earlier this week sleeping car passengers were allowed the option of choosing something from the cafe car instead of the flex meals. I'm accustomed to eating most meals prepared at home, mostly from scratch with "real" ingredients (vegetables, fruit, meat, cheese ...) and without chemical preservatives and other additives. I found the flex frozen entrees and breakfast options almost inedible, the cafe car offerings not much better, and two days later my gut is still unhappy about the experience. ☹ 

YMMV, but I don't think what's currently on offer is sufficient to maintain health. And (except for the Stone IPA) it's certainly not enjoyable.


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## Dakota 400

MilwaukeeRoadLover said:


> You must be referring to the Heinz packets. The Paul Newman packets on a recent trip were huge



It's my understanding that the Paul Newman salad dressing packets are no longer available. The packets to which I was referring were the size of Heinz' packets.


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## crescent-zephyr

Dakota 400 said:


> It's my understanding that the Paul Newman salad dressing packets are no longer available. The packets to which I was referring were the size of Heinz' packets.



Yes, that was clear to me in your post. The packets that received on the Silver Metoer were indeed Heinz salad dressing packets. High Fructose Corn syrup is no additional charge  

A few members have received Paul Newman's dressings on some of the western trains as well as the Vanilla Pudding that was from the previous menus. I'm not sure if there is one commissary that is still stocking these items or these are just leftover stock.


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## Griffin T. Murphey DDS

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes, that was clear to me in your post. The packets that received on the Silver Metoer were indeed Heinz salad dressing packets. High Fructose Corn syrup is no additional charge
> 
> A few members have received Paul Newman's dressings on some of the western trains as well as the Vanilla Pudding that was from the previous menus. I'm not sure if there is one commissary that is still stocking these items or these are just leftover stock.


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## Griffin T. Murphey DDS

We just took the Builder and of course being used to the old cooked to order meals it was a big disappointment. However the food was better that the beef bourbagnon (spelling) we had on the City of New Orleans (cold center) in 2018. 
we had the shrimp, veggie enchiladas, beef, and meatballs with pasta. All was sort of acceptable but really a minus for recreational train travel. I agree the breakfast is awful. I had the sugar laden oatmeal and took the breakfast sandwich apart; pressed the grease out of the meat and scraped as much of the cheese whiz off of the egg as possible. I give high marks to the staff for trying to make it fun although the food is hardly a plus. Also high marks for social distancing and infection control practices. 

I was looking at a video on the Trans Siberian RR in Russia and the food looks fresh prepared and a good deal more inviting than the TV dinner concept currently embraced by Amtrak.


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## MilwaukeeRoadLover

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes, that was clear to me in your post. The packets that received on the Silver Metoer were indeed Heinz salad dressing packets. High Fructose Corn syrup is no additional charge
> 
> A few members have received Paul Newman's dressings on some of the western trains as well as the Vanilla Pudding that was from the previous menus. I'm not sure if there is one commissary that is still stocking these items or these are just leftover stock.


Yep. Vanilla was an option on a recent eastbound EB: cookie, brownie, blondie, vanilla pudding. Could have multiples


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## Georgie

Oops, my apologies. Technical issues in attempt to post.


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## Georgie

Hi *wave* New traveler here since Covid stole my overseas adventures ... 
After reading/watching reviews I thought I was prepared for the 'more portable covid menu' ... here's a pictorial view from the California Zephyr & Starlight Menu. Mostly inedible, never on time, sauces spilled in the bag - overall extremely disappointed. My first journey, I came home quite unwell from the excessive sodium.

Twice I was able to substitute a meal for a Hot Dog, and on other occasions I was told "No." I had to purchase the hot dog despite foregoing a meal as a bedroom sleeper passenger.








***Feel free to ask me what I think about overall customer service at Amtrak!


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## Georgie

Hello, what is that fanned device at the center of the table? 





[/QUOTE]


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## MARC Rider

Griffin T. Murphey DDS said:


> being used to the old cooked to order meals it was a big disappointment.


Just to be clear, most of the pre-flex "traditional dining" meals (except the steaks, and maybe a couple of breakfast items) were_* not*_ "cooked to order." Even back 10 years ago, when the food was a lot better, most of the entrees were pre-made. The big change (aside from the quality of the entrees, which could easily be rectified) is in the presentation of the meals. "Traditional dining" provided an illusion that you were being served "fresh cooked food," whatever that is. However, it did require a full dining car staff to heat, plate, and serve the food. Under the flex system, the meal is heated and served in the same platter, and thus, the passengers can be served by dining car staff of 1. (Maybe have the coach attendant help out if there are very high passenger loads.) That's where the costs savings come from. 

It is entirely possible the the marketing people at Amtrak know what they're talking about regarding millennials, who may not value food presentation as much as previous generations, just as we boomers drifted away from the bourgeois formality of white tablecloth, fancy china and silver of our parents. (This is course is a generation, and there may be millenials who prefer traditional dining, as well as boomers who yearn for some bourgeois formality, but that stuff costs money, and there is a clear trend of most consumers opting for affordable prices over fancy presentation.) The growing success of fast casual restaurant concepts at the expense of sit-down "white tablecloth" establishments might be evidence that this is the case. 

Maybe 30 years ago they were still cooking everything in the dining cars, but they haven't been doing that for a long time. I don't know the history, but they've been cutting back on staffing in the dining cars for quite a while. The "flex dining" is just the culmination of this process (*) -- now they don't even need waiters. Personally, I really don't care, except that I'd like the food quality to be better and the service to be fast, efficient and friendly -- no long waits for food and being able to sit in the diner-lounge and eat undisturbed by OBS staff who are frustrated boot-camp drill instructors. I don't even care if different trains have different procedures for serving food. These may be justified based on the circumstances of the trip. I'd just want OBS staff to make it clear what the procedures are. 

(*) Well, maybe not. Perhaps the culmination of this process is vending machines.  Or maybe even just a lounge car with a passenger-operated microwave oven for passenger-provided food, if they can get the applicable regulations changed. Or maybe platform-side vendors. )


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## MARC Rider

Griffin T. Murphey DDS said:


> I was looking at a video on the Trans Siberian RR in Russia and the food looks fresh prepared and a good deal more inviting than the TV dinner concept currently embraced by Amtrak.



Uh, I suggest reading _Ghost Train to the Eastern Star,_ especially the passage about the dining car on the Trans-Siberian before making any definitive statements about what it's really like. After all, the pictures of Flex dining on the Amtrak website make that look pretty good.

Of course, Ghost Train was about a journey in 2006, back when Amtrak food was pretty good. If there's been enough time for Amtrak food to get lousy, maybe there's also been enough time for Russian railway food to improve. But don't judge the quality of the food on the basis of a video.


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## crescent-zephyr

The definition of cook is - “prepare (food, a dish, or a meal) by combining and heating the ingredients in various ways.”

Most of traditional dining falls into that definition with a few items like scrambled eggs and steaks being fully cooked on board.

The food specialist prepared and plated the food, most trains only had 1. A full dining car staff was not needed to continue the traditional dining menu.


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## tricia

MARC Rider said:


> .... Under the flex system, the meal is heated and served in the same platter, and thus, the passengers can be served by dining car staff of 1. (Maybe have the coach attendant help out if there are very high passenger loads.) ....



On the SL/TE earlier this week, there were two staff in the dining car: a very good LSA who worked upstairs directly with passengers (and did the best she could, with not much work with, to make the dining-car experience pleasant) and a "chef" downstairs who organized and heated up the orders. Not certain the "chef" was there before our SL joined the TE in San Antonio. After San Antonio, both the SL and TE sleepers were served by the one dining car that started out in New Orleans with the SL.


----------



## jiml

Georgie said:


> Hi *wave* New traveler here since Covid stole my overseas adventures ...
> After reading/watching reviews I thought I was prepared for the 'more portable covid menu' ... here's a pictorial view from the California Zephyr & Starlight Menu. Mostly inedible, never on time, sauces spilled in the bag - overall extremely disappointed. My first journey, I came home quite unwell from the excessive sodium.
> 
> Twice I was able to substitute a meal for a Hot Dog, and on other occasions I was told "No." I had to purchase the hot dog despite foregoing a meal as a bedroom sleeper passenger.
> 
> View attachment 19189
> 
> View attachment 19183
> View attachment 19184
> View attachment 19185
> View attachment 19186
> 
> ***Feel free to ask me what I think about overall customer service at Amtrak!


Nice caption on the first one.


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> The food specialist prepared and plated the food, most trains only had 1. A full dining car staff was not needed to continue the traditional dining menu.



And with flex dining, the dining car staff is even smaller. That's where the cost savings come from.


----------



## MARC Rider

tricia said:


> On the SL/TE earlier this week, there were two staff in the dining car: a very good LSA who worked upstairs directly with passengers (and did the best she could, with not much work with, to make the dining-car experience pleasant) and a "chef" downstairs who organized and heated up the orders. Not certain the "chef" was there before our SL joined the TE in San Antonio. After San Antonio, both the SL and TE sleepers were served by the one dining car that started out in New Orleans with the SL.


When I rode the Cardinal last fall, the LSA in the cafe car was supposed to do everything. Fortunately, the coach attendant was on hand to help out with the sleeper passengers during mealtime. It was not bad service, but there were only 12 people in the sleeper.


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## Dakota 400

MARC Rider said:


> Traditional dining" provided an illusion that you were being served "fresh cooked food," whatever that is.



"Fresh cooked" or not, the food most of the time looked palatable and tasted good. 

How palatable seemed to depend upon the Chef on the train. I was on a SWC trip when the Chef tended to overcook everything: Scrambled eggs and the chicken entree were the worst. My half chicken was so dry and overcooked that I didn't consume one-quarter of it let along the whole thing.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> And with flex dining, the dining car staff is even smaller. That's where the cost savings come from.



Apparently not on the SL and EB per recent trip reports.


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## lordsigma

I was wondering how they were managing it on the western trains. The two level configuration of the superliner diner seems like it would make it tricky for one staff member to do it all especially on a busier train.


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Apparently not on the SL and EB per recent trip reports.


I guess we need a Congressperson to "grill" them at appropriation hearings about exactly_ where_ the cost savings from Flex Dining is coming from, then.
When I took the Capitol Limited last fall, they only had one person doing the Flex Dining on the double-decked Superliner Cross Country Cafe car, and the sleepers were pretty full, too.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> I guess we need a Congressperson to "grill" them at appropriation hearings about exactly_ where_ the cost savings from Flex Dining is coming from, then.
> When I took the Capitol Limited last fall, they only had one person doing the Flex Dining on the double-decked Superliner Cross Country Cafe car, and the sleepers were pretty full, too.



They can’t grill without the food specialist! They’ll have to convection heat them!!!  

Did they have to go downstairs to get your meals or were they able to serve them all from the ccc serving area?


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## lordsigma

The portion of the CR as currently passed by the house which includes the 1 year extension of the FAST act appears to kill the Mica mandate or at least remove its teeth.


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## PaulM

I recently took a MTP-DEN round trip on the Cal Zephyr and was a bit surprised. I don't claim to be a foodie, but I (shrimp and sausage gumbo) and my wife (beef dish) both enjoyed our dinners well enough that we repeated the choices on the way back. Also, the selection of meals seemed to be at least as large, if not larger, than "traditional" menu in recent years. The paper trash presentation did leave something to be desired.

I confess a fondness for breakfast sandwiches; although I prefer Hardee's biscuits over McD's muffins. So breakfast wasn't that bad. However, I don't see how Amtrak can justify a lack of hot or cold sugar-free cereal and fruit at breakfast.

I would sum up the situation be saying that "flexible" doesn't make for as nice a travel experience as "traditional". But the downgrade is not bad enough me to consider any other type of travel.


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## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> They can’t grill without the food specialist! They’ll have to convection heat them!!!
> 
> Did they have to go downstairs to get your meals or were they able to serve them all from the ccc serving area?


On that CL trip, the sleeping car attendant was very conscientious about getting my dinner order and making a reservation time even before the train left Washington. It seemed like they were doing reservations in 10 minute increments, and were trying to keep the crowds down at any one time. I'm thinking they might have had some short breaks in the dinner reservations to allow the attendant to run downstairs and get more meals, which were nuked in the upstairs CCC serving area. It's also possible that the coach attendant was helping out, and I didn't notice him or her. (NOTE: This trip was in October 2019, well before the Covid stuff.)


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I wonder how these new Amtrak meals compare to what is slung in prisons.


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## desertflyer

For my trip SLC-EMY, didn't wake up in time for breakfast since the train was a bit late and we were up until 3am. We again had to ask for lunch in the room, the dining car attendant seemed annoyed by the request, but our SCA was excellent. I got the chicken fettuccine (which our outbound CZ trip didn't have on the menu) and my partner got the shrimp in lobster sauce. We were offered either a blondie or brownie for dessert. When the food was delivered, there was no side salad or roll.






That's the shrimp in lobster sauce on top and chicken fettuccine on bottom. Both were decent. Lots and lots of sauce. The portions are kind of small without a side salad and roll.

Our CZ was on a modified schedule because of Moffat maintenance, so our scheduled time into EMY was 5:40pm. With delay we didn't arrive until ~7:30pm and no dinner was offered. Not unexpected, but we sure were hungry by the time we got home.


----------



## desertflyer

Georgie said:


> Hello, what is that fanned device at the center of the table?



That is a small HEPA purifier. I'm not sure it does much, but it is small and runs using the same USB-C charger our phones and computers use. We got it here: Pure Enrichment PureZone Personal Portable True HEPA Air Purifier - 9630168 | HSN


----------



## Georgie

desertflyer said:


> That is a small HEPA purifier. I'm not sure it does much, but it is small and runs using the same USB-C charger our phones and computers use. We got it here: Pure Enrichment PureZone Personal Portable True HEPA Air Purifier - 9630168 | HSN


Good idea! I brought a personal fan (since the HVAC cooling is so unreliable), and the build up on the blades after 24 hours is kinda gross.


----------



## lordsigma

Had my first experience with flexible dining today at lunch on 91. I had the shrimp with lobster sauce and ate in the diner. Apparently on this train at lunch they don’t have salads as those are brought on at Washington. But the roll was done right and not soggy and as much as I hate to day it I enjoyed the meal and thought the lobster sauce was quite tasty. I will disclaim that I like a decent amount of salt so I can see where some who don’t care for (or can’t have) salty food could have an issue. We’ll see how dinner is - getting the pasta meatball meal then. Could just be the shrimp meal is the best of the bunch and I won’t like the others.


----------



## tricia

lordsigma said:


> Had my first experience with flexible dining today at lunch on 91. I had the shrimp with lobster sauce and ate in the diner. Apparently on this train at lunch they don’t have salads as those are brought on at Washington. But the roll was done right and not soggy and as much as I hate to day it I enjoyed the meal and thought the lobster sauce was quite tasty. I will disclaim that I like a decent amount of salt so I can see where some who don’t care for (or can’t have) salty food could have an issue. We’ll see how dinner is - getting the pasta meatball meal then. Could just be the shrimp meal is the best of the bunch and I won’t like the others.



To my taste, the shrimp entrees were the best of the bunch, though the shrimp was rather rubbery. The meatballs tasted off to me, but were better than the chicken marsala , which was just about inedible. Good luck with your choices!


----------



## lordsigma

Forgot to mention I tipped the Diner LSA because he was helpful and nice and seemed to be trying to do the Best he could with what he has to work with.


----------



## lordsigma

Just had Meal 2 the pasta and meat balls dinner. It’s not like eating at a gourmet restaurant but it’s perfectly acceptable for for what I’d expect on a train or bus. My early conclusion would be, at least from these two meals, that the main downgrade is the presentation and how it is served and the lack of a substantive meal for breakfast or a lighter choice for lunch. The lunch problem is easy - throw a few of the same burgers and pizzas that are served in the cafe car into the diner for a lighter choice. For breakfast the Acela first class normally has some decent options. I know some will disagree but the actual main entrees, at least these two, are perfectly acceptable to me and are far superior to eating from the cafe car. If they added a scrambled egg/bacon or omelette sort of prepackaged meal you could serve at breakfast and some of the cafe car lighter options for lunch, I’d say it would be good enough for 85% of riders on the eastern trains especially those that have never Had traditional dining and don’t know what they are missing.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> Just had Meal 2 the pasta and meat balls dinner. It’s not like eating at a gourmet restaurant but it’s perfectly acceptable for for what I’d expect on a train or bus. My early conclusion would be, at least from these two meals, that the main downgrade is the presentation and how it is served and the lack of a substantive meal for breakfast or a lighter choice for lunch. The lunch problem is easy - throw a few of the same burgers and pizzas that are served in the cafe car into the diner for a lighter choice. For breakfast the Acela first class normally has some decent options. I know some will disagree but the actual main entrees, at least these two, are perfectly acceptable to me and are far superior to eating from the cafe car. If they added a scrambled egg/bacon or omelette sort of prepackaged meal you could serve at breakfast and some of the cafe car lighter options for lunch, I’d say it would be good enough for 85% of riders on the eastern trains especially those that have never Had traditional dining and don’t know what they are missing.



I do disagree but that’s what makes the world go around!

It’s good to hear what other experiences were. Sounds like you have a good crew which always helps.


----------



## lordsigma

I think you are right - this crew does seem to care. As I said in an earlier post though - I will disclaim that I am not turned off by salty foods so I may not be the best person to review for nutritional value and I also know for those that have other nutritional needs (such as no meat) things may be a bit different as you may have literally one option. Just sharing my thoughts but I by no means claim to be the be all and end all - I also have only tried two of the choices I may hate the other ones. The enchiladas don’t look all that appealing to me.


----------



## lordsigma

I will say a staggering amount of waste is generated which I'm sure is even worse due to COVID and literally everything being disposable right now. None of what I'm saying should suggest that I wouldn't whole heartedly support a return to traditional dining after we get past COVID now that it seems that the Mica mandate has been defanged - including bringing it back on the eastern trains. I guess what I'm saying is I can live with it if I have to and I suspect there's probably others that can too - but I respect that not everyone feels that way.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> I will say a staggering amount of waste is generated which I'm sure is even worse due to COVID and literally everything being disposable right now. None of what I'm saying should suggest that I wouldn't whole heartedly support a return to traditional dining after we get past COVID now that it seems that the Mica mandate has been defanged - including bringing it back on the eastern trains. I guess what I'm saying is I can live with it if I have to and I suspect there's probably others that can too - but I respect that not everyone feels that way.


I'm fine with it, though I did skip a meal or two on my recent trip (got a hot dog in the cafe for lunch one day). But I would have done that with the big full diner meals. Too much food for me.


----------



## lordsigma

Ironically this was an upgrade over my last Star trip - last time it was the still the starvation and now it even has the viewliner 2 diner.


----------



## gwolfdog

For myself, I couldn't care less about the food,as long as it's not C Rations like Ham and Lima Beans. I just want to get from point A to B, preferably with feet on the Ground in the safest Covid avoidance manner. Eatable food would be nice on just an Overnight, but It is what it is.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> Ironically this was an upgrade over my last Star trip - last time it was the still the starvation and now it even has the viewliner 2 diner.



I preferred the Star with cafe only. The food quality was the same, and I could pick from a larger selection of items. 

Having the viewliner to Lounge in isn’t a bad thing though.


----------



## Katibeth

I'll soon be taking the CL, SS, SM, and CL, so I will have my first experience with Flexible Dining.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Katibeth said:


> I'll soon be taking the CL, SS, SM, and CL, so I will have my first experience with Flexible Dining.



That’s where flexible dining really goes downhill. When I took the silver meteor by itself, sure flex will get me by until I get to philly and feast on the Acela lounge snack basket. 

But multiple trains in a row? Ughh. To think I used to WANT to book circle trips so I would get multiple meals, wine tastings, etc.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I preferred the Star with cafe only. The food quality was the same, and I could pick from a larger selection of items.
> 
> Having the viewliner to Lounge in isn’t a bad thing though.


You probably wouldn’t right now - the cafe cars have been stripped to bare bones with Covid. The menus on the NEC trains are embarrassing they still show everything but like half of the menu is blocked out with the sold out tags. And it’s not because they are sold out they seem to be only stocking the most frequently purchased items.


----------



## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> You probably wouldn’t right now - the cafe cars have been stripped to bare bones with Covid. The menus on the NEC trains are embarrassing they still show everything but like half of the menu is blocked out with the sold out tags. And it’s not because they are sold out they seem to be only stocking the most frequently purchased items.


And what they are currently serving on Acela first right now makes flex dining look like gourmet. The only thing that gives me hope that traditional dining could return out west is that all of F&B has taken a hit system wide they aren’t just singling out the long distance trains.


----------



## Oma

We got very tired of the meals. They seriously need a lunch menu with sandwiches and a child’s menu.


----------



## lordsigma

Oma said:


> We got very tired of the meals. They seriously need a lunch menu with sandwiches and a child’s menu.


I agree - even if they just offered some of the same burgers, hot dogs, pizzas, and salads from the cafe car either with a cafe car voucher type deal or by stocking some of these items in the diner along with the flex dining meals - they already do it with the breakfast sandwich - it’s the exact same one sold in the cafe cars across the system.

They need to provide some type of mores sizeable meal for breakfast too even if it’s just for the longer duration trains.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

MARC Rider said:


> Just to be clear, most of the pre-flex "traditional dining" meals (except the steaks, and maybe a couple of breakfast items) were_* not*_ "cooked to order." Even back 10 years ago, when the food was a lot better, most of the entrees were pre-made. The big change (aside from the quality of the entrees, which could easily be rectified) is in the presentation of the meals. "Traditional dining" provided an illusion that you were being served "fresh cooked food," whatever that is. However, it did require a full dining car staff to heat, plate, and serve the food. Under the flex system, the meal is heated and served in the same platter, and thus, the passengers can be served by dining car staff of 1. (Maybe have the coach attendant help out if there are very high passenger loads.) That's where the costs savings come from.
> 
> It is entirely possible the the marketing people at Amtrak know what they're talking about regarding millennials, who may not value food presentation as much as previous generations, just as we boomers drifted away from the bourgeois formality of white tablecloth, fancy china and silver of our parents. (This is course is a generation, and there may be millenials who prefer traditional dining, as well as boomers who yearn for some bourgeois formality, but that stuff costs money, and there is a clear trend of most consumers opting for affordable prices over fancy presentation.) The growing success of fast casual restaurant concepts at the expense of sit-down "white tablecloth" establishments might be evidence that this is the case.
> 
> Maybe 30 years ago they were still cooking everything in the dining cars, but they haven't been doing that for a long time. I don't know the history, but they've been cutting back on staffing in the dining cars for quite a while. The "flex dining" is just the culmination of this process (*) -- now they don't even need waiters. Personally, I really don't care, except that I'd like the food quality to be better and the service to be fast, efficient and friendly -- no long waits for food and being able to sit in the diner-lounge and eat undisturbed by OBS staff who are frustrated boot-camp drill instructors. I don't even care if different trains have different procedures for serving food. These may be justified based on the circumstances of the trip. I'd just want OBS staff to make it clear what the procedures are.
> 
> (*) Well, maybe not. Perhaps the culmination of this process is vending machines.  Or maybe even just a lounge car with a passenger-operated microwave oven for passenger-provided food, if they can get the applicable regulations changed. Or maybe platform-side vendors. )




Bourgeois formality? Is that in the Communist Manifesto?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I agree - even if they just offered some of the same burgers, hot dogs, pizzas, and salads from the cafe car either with a cafe car voucher type deal or by stocking some of these items in the diner along with the flex dining meals - they already do it with the breakfast sandwich - it’s the exact same one sold in the cafe cars across the system.
> 
> They need to provide some type of mores sizeable meal for breakfast too even if it’s just for the longer duration trains.



Since you have to pre-order the meals, it seems you should be able to just pre-order anything from the cafe car if you would like. The lsa would just go and pull those items and prepare them for you instead of the flex meals. 

Far from perfect, but it would be an improvement for me I know that.


----------



## Sidney

Agree. I've been on a few three day trips over the past several months and I would have welcomed a choice. Why doesn't Amtrak give sleeper passengers a choice of stuff from the cafe car? A burger,pizza,a cup of noodles and a bagel would at least broaden the selections.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> Since you have to pre-order the meals, it seems you should be able to just pre-order anything from the cafe car if you would like. The lsa would just go and pull those items and prepare them for you instead of the flex meals.
> 
> Far from perfect, but it would be an improvement for me I know that.


Especially for lunch. I’m not sure on a long trip I could do 6 of those meals too much food.


----------



## Palmetto

In another thread, it was reported that practically all items in the lounge car were sold out by Albuquerque, westbound. Scratch that idea, unless Amtrak is willing to stock the lounge car with larger quantities of items.


----------



## railiner

Palmetto said:


> In another thread, it was reported that practically all items in the lounge car were sold out by Albuquerque, westbound. Scratch that idea, unless Amtrak is willing to stock the lounge car with larger quantities of items.


If they are running out of items on a regular basis, that is really poor management. If there is insufficient storage space on the car, then they should open a 'mini-commissary' at a convenient location on the route...perhaps Albuquerque or La Junta...


----------



## lordsigma

Palmetto said:


> In another thread, it was reported that practically all items in the lounge car were sold out by Albuquerque, westbound. Scratch that idea, unless Amtrak is willing to stock the lounge car with larger quantities of items.


 One solution to that would be to store a selection of the Cafe items in the diner along with the flex dining meals. They are already doing so with the breakfast sandwiches and some of the other breakfast items which are the same as the ones in the cafe. And that would leave plenty in the cafe car for the coach passengers available for purchase.


----------



## Palmetto

It must be extremely difficult to re-stock a food service car en route, I guess. Otherwise, Amtrak would be using this process to make sure there is food available for the entire trip. End sarcasm.


----------



## railiner

I would think, at least Kansas City might have a mini commissary to replenish the Missouri River Runner trains...
When I worked at Denver, we set up a mini-commissary to replenish the Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind...


----------



## tgstubbs1

railiner said:


> I would think, at least Kansas City might have a mini commissary to replenish the Missouri River Runner trains...
> When I worked at Denver, we set up a mini-commissary to replenish the Zephyr, Pioneer, and Desert Wind...


Sure, at least the train that starts the day in KCY would be stocked there.


----------



## lordsigma

On my trip home on 92 I tried one additional flex dining option for lunch on the second day (the chicken Marsala) which I thought was also pretty decent. I’d say the shrimp is my favorite followed by the chicken and the pasta just a hair behind that - also acceptable. For dinner when I boarded in KIS I had the shrimp again. I have not yet tried the beef entree and as I said the enchiladas didn’t look appetizing, I felt the three Entrees I had were acceptable. The presentation could be better but that is what it is right now with Covid - disposable everything is the norm right now. My biggest complaint was the consistency of the sides that come with the entree. The only consistent item was that I got the brownie/blondie all meal times. Going south I got rolls for both lunch and dinner but no salad for lunch (I’m getting the impression that there is an unofficial thing that the salads only come with the dinner as they are loaded at Washington coming south. No rolls coming north - whether they ran out or just don’t have them in MIA I don’t know but things should be consistent (of course this is Amtrak.) Also the salads out of the Miami commissary are pathetic - barely anything to it. The ones out of Washington were still small but at least can get away with being acceptable. Same coming home - salad only for dinner.

On a side note my SCA coming north was one of the best I’ve ever had - absolutely outstanding.

As an aside once again - I like salt - for folks who can’t have a moderate to high salt content I Do understand their problem with the flex meals.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> The presentation could be better but that is what it is right now with Covid - disposable everything is the norm right now.



What you were served began October 1, 2019. Well before Covid.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> What you were served began October 1, 2019. Well before Covid.


Weren’t they using some sort of tray instead of the cafe car boxes before or was that just an advertising gimmick?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

This was the actual presentation in my experience.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> This was the actual presentation in my experience. View attachment 19321



What elegant dining!


----------



## Sidney

The ultimate in first class dining. Sad Amtrak is charging first class pricing for their sleepers


----------



## RichieRich

crescent-zephyr said:


> This was the actual presentation in my experience. View attachment 19321


Takes me back to my daze on the American Orient Express. Used it to go back & forth DCA to Chicago.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

RichieRich said:


> Takes me back to my daze on the American Orient Express. Used it to go back & forth DCA to Chicago.



How was it!? I regret never taking it. I’ve been on Iowa Pacific Pullman and VIA Canadian before they messed it up with the luxury suites.


----------



## RichieRich

crescent-zephyr said:


> How was it!?


Brass, mahogany, coat & tie required for dinner, proper dress for the lounge/piano bar...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

RichieRich said:


> Brass, mahogany, coat & tie required for dinner, proper dress for the lounge/piano bar...



Nice. When I rode Pullman I brought along a nice dinner outfit but several passengers said they weren’t planning on dressing up for dinner so I joined them at their table. Ha.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Dakota 400 said:


> What elegant dining!


They should just get some stamped metal trays like you see in prison and military chow halls and sling the slop in them.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> This was the actual presentation in my experience. View attachment 19321


That tray is what I was thinking and would be an improvement over what I got. I got a takeout bag with a bunch of those folding boxes on the left for everything - they aren't doing the trays at the moment. Did you get dinner rolls for yours?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> That tray is what I was thinking and would be an improvement over what I got. I got a takeout bag with a bunch of those folding boxes on the left for everything - they aren't doing the trays at the moment. Did you get dinner rolls for yours?


I did get a dinner roll at dinner, not at lunch. 

Did you get your food in your room? I did not get the tray when it was delivered to my room.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> I did get a dinner roll at dinner, not at lunch.


That sounds redundant and self-explanatory.


----------



## jiml

They were all out of lunch rolls.


----------



## lordsigma

Devil's Advocate said:


> That sounds redundant and self-explanatory.


Touche - I got rolls at both lunch and dinner on my trip down - but the type of roll is what I would describe as a dinner roll.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> I did get a dinner roll at dinner, not at lunch.
> 
> Did you get your food in your room? I did not get the tray when it was delivered to my room.



I did take one meal in the diner (lunch on the way down) and they gave it to me the same way - in a takeout bag with the box tray things. Due to COVID it seems they are pretty much defaulting to room service for dinner and lunch - essentially they'll deliver to your room unless you outright state you want to eat in the diner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I did take one meal in the diner (lunch on the way down) and they gave it to me the same way - in a takeout bag with the box tray things. Due to COVID it seems they are pretty much defaulting to room service for dinner and lunch - essentially they'll deliver to your room unless you outright state you want to eat in the diner.



It was almost like that before covid in my experience. I was getting ready to go to the diner and my SCA brought it to me.


----------



## TinCan782

On my recent 6 train trip, the western trains (CS, CZ and EB) were diner or room. Your choice, no pressure either way.
On the Cardinal, it was in room only. Lots of those white paper bags being used!


----------



## Rasputin

For a bit of contrast, I recently came across a letter from May 1975 from an elderly relative to my parents describing her recent trip on Delta from Florida to Maine, which included a change of planes in Boston. Not sure whether she was in coach or first class:

"About 11:00 I guess they served the most delicious filet mignon, scrambled eggs, hot muffin with jam, including coffee or whatever one wanted - even champagne. Then after we left Boston they came around with a turkey sandwich made in a sesame roll, pickle, more drinks, etc., but I could not eat any more."


----------



## hlcteacher

Dakota 400 said:


> What elegant dining!


How sad that my grand will not be able to experience train dining as his father did, no excuse for this...whatever, might as well take the bus. As long as this is "dining" on amtrak i will continue to ride coach and save the money for a real restaurant when i get to my destination


----------



## johnmiller

I am guessing that there are still no updates on regular dining possibly resuming, at any point? Amtrak is offering double points right now. But, if nothing has changed with the dining, I will have to continue to not patronize Amtrak.


----------



## dlagrua

The food now being served on Amtrak will discourage ridership. On an overnight trip , you may get by with a "flexible" meal but try it on a two or three day trip and you'll get sick to your stomach. This has got to change. If no kitchen is now the rule give us back the old Cardinal food menu. It was reheated but it was OK. The stuff they are serving right now has hit a new low.


----------



## RichieRich

johnmiller said:


> ... I will have to continue to not patronize Amtrak.


Sorta a moot point with my AT...meals never changed other then serving in the room. But the Covid thing cut me down from 10 trips-a-year to none. As-far-as AGR points... canceled my BoA AGR card due to fraudulent charges posted to it.


----------



## Sidney

Amtrak is still saying full service dining will return December 15. With this never ending virus still with us I doubt full service dining will ever return. Same for daily service. I hope I am wrong. There has got to be better alternatives than what is served now. Biggest complaint is the sleeper prices have not come down,and in many cases have risen. But if people are willing to pay for their substandard service nothing will change. I have seen sleeper prices $1000 and up for many routes. No way in hell would I pay those prices and if you do you are wasting your money.


----------



## lordsigma

Sidney said:


> Same for daily service.


That one is up to Congress. Based on the hearing I watched last week 
I think there is a good chance of at least some trains returning to daily service.


----------



## lordsigma

Sidney said:


> if you do you are wasting your money.


What if you don’t fly, don’t want to drive, and don’t want to ride in coach? I’ll take a room over coach even if there’s no food. While I could see the meals getting boring on a long trip, based on my recent trip i can accept flex dining on a one night train - private room still beats coach - but that’s just me. Once again i am a short timer as far as riding trains I never rode in the days of really good food - most of the traditional dining meals I had were fine but not incredible. Sure the service and presentation and menu variety beats this any day especially at breakfast. Amtrak also could drastically improve this program, once again, by providing breakfast meals as well as some lighter fare choices as well as better choices for people who can’t eat highly salty foods or can’t eat meat.


----------



## Michigan Mom

Food is the absolute last of my concerns. Yes, it used to be part of the experience. But I'll get back to the meals question if, and when, I can make sense of the website without Amsnag, with the frequency reductions and now building a connection in Chicago, and the lack of points information available. It used to be so easy to book with cash one way and points for return or vice versa. The website doesn't even display the points needed. Call for price, really? Maybe the app works better. 
Look, I'm happy to call if there's an agent patient enough to go through different dates with me, round trip, one way, multicity... points, dollars.... even if the agent was patient, who knows if they'd be penalized for spending that amount of time with one customer. Although I am prepared to book when and if the pieces fall into place. //End rant....


----------



## bratkinson

johnmiller said:


> I am guessing that there are still no updates on regular dining possibly resuming, at any point? Amtrak is offering double points right now. But, if nothing has changed with the dining, I will have to continue to not patronize Amtrak.



I highly agree. Amtrak won't be seeing any of MY money until LD food improves.



dlagrua said:


> If no kitchen is now the rule give us back the old Cardinal food menu. It was reheated but it was OK. The stuff they are serving right now has hit a new low.



The Cardinal food and even the 'diner lite' food on the Lakeshore Ltd are far, far more tolerable than the garbage being served now!



Sidney said:


> Amtrak is still saying full service dining will return December 15. With this never ending virus still with us I doubt full service dining will ever return. Same for daily service. I hope I am wrong.



Ditto. (for those old enough to remember Ditto Machines!...or the movie Ghost)

Throw in that many states now have restrictions on travelers from many other states, how is one to book a trip a month or two from now and be surprised at the last moment that ABC state bans all travelers from XYZ state?


----------



## MARC Rider

Rasputin said:


> For a bit of contrast, I recently came across a letter from May 1975 from an elderly relative to my parents describing her recent trip on Delta from Florida to Maine, which included a change of planes in Boston. Not sure whether she was in coach or first class:
> 
> "About 11:00 I guess they served the most delicious filet mignon, scrambled eggs, hot muffin with jam, including coffee or whatever one wanted - even champagne. Then after we left Boston they came around with a turkey sandwich made in a sesame roll, pickle, more drinks, etc., but I could not eat any more."


They must have been flying first class because, believe me, I was a frequent flyer in the 1970s, and I was never served anything like that. Airline food was considered a joke -- the usual joke was "the food is lousy -- and such small portions!"

Little did I know what would happen to airline food in the 1980s, '90s, and then in the 21st century.


----------



## MARC Rider

dlagrua said:


> The food now being served on Amtrak will discourage ridership. On an overnight trip , you may get by with a "flexible" meal but try it on a two or three day trip and you'll get sick to your stomach. This has got to change. If no kitchen is now the rule give us back the old Cardinal food menu. It was reheated but it was OK. The stuff they are serving right now has hit a new low.


Well, maybe. People thought that eliminating airline meals would hurt ridership, but it didn't. The majority of Amtrak travelers, even on the long-distance trains, don't ride overnight, and can get by perfectly fine with this meal service. The number of riders who are making a 2 or 3 night journey are a miniscule fraction of the total Amtrak ridership, and are probably a bit of a captive audience (with the exception of an even more minuscule subset who are channeling Lucius Beebee, and would thus refuse to travel Amtrak because they can't get the traditional railroad dining experience.) The taxpayers don't subsidize Amtrak so passengers can have the traditional railroad dining experience, they subsidize it because it's a useful and important transportation service.


----------



## MARC Rider

Sidney said:


> Biggest complaint is the sleeper prices have not come down,and in many cases have risen. But if people are willing to pay for their substandard service nothing will change. I have seen sleeper prices $1000 and up for many routes. No way in hell would I pay those prices and if you do you are wasting your money.



Let's say you can't fly for medical reasons. If you have to get across the country, you alternative are a Greyhound bus that involves numerous stops and bus changes, Amtrak, which has one transfer in Chicago, or driving yourself. Sure, Greyhound is probably cheap, but Amtrak coach is also no so expensive. But either way, the food is worse than flex dining. If you can drive, it will take more than 3 1/2 days, as you have to stop for meals and stop at night to sleep. (OK, if you're the kind of person who's into driving the "Cannonball Run," maybe you can can do the drive faster than Amtrak.) I could easily imagine that a one-way car rental, the cost of motels, the cost of food, and the cost of gas for a coast-to-coast trip could start pushing $1,000. Of course, if you can't fly AND you can't drive, you're a captive audience. It's either multiple bus changes or an Amtrak ride or stay home.


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## neroden

MARC Rider said:


> Let's say you can't fly for medical reasons. If you have to get across the country, you alternative are a Greyhound bus that involves numerous stops and bus changes, Amtrak, which has one transfer in Chicago, or driving yourself. Sure, Greyhound is probably cheap, but Amtrak coach is also no so expensive. But either way, the food is worse than flex dining. If you can drive, it will take more than 3 1/2 days, as you have to stop for meals and stop at night to sleep. (OK, if you're the kind of person who's into driving the "Cannonball Run," maybe you can can do the drive faster than Amtrak.) I could easily imagine that a one-way car rental, the cost of motels, the cost of food, and the cost of gas for a coast-to-coast trip could start pushing $1,000. Of course, if you can't fly AND you can't drive, you're a captive audience. It's either multiple bus changes or an Amtrak ride or stay home.



In fact, the actual choice will be "don't travel at all".


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## Rasputin

MARC Rider said:


> They must have been flying first class because, believe me, I was a frequent flyer in the 1970s, and I was never served anything like that. Airline food was considered a joke -- the usual joke was "the food is lousy -- and such small portions!"
> 
> Little did I know what would happen to airline food in the 1980s, '90s, and then in the 21st century.


In the 1970s and 1980s I rarely flew and almost always did long distance traveling by train. However based on my infrequent flights I don't recall that it was that dire in the early 1980s. I remember traveling by coach on Delta about 1984 and the meal was very good. I think my next flights were on People's Express and things went downhill from there. The 1984 Delta meal in coach was comparable to Amtrak traditional dining and far superior to Amtrak contemporary dining on the Lake Shore.


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## tricia

Rasputin said:


> In the 1970s and 1980s I rarely flew and almost always did long distance traveling by train. However based on my infrequent flights I don't recall that it was that dire in the early 1980s. I remember traveling by coach on Delta about 1984 and the meal was very good. I think my next flights were on People's Express and things went downhill from there. The 1984 Delta meal in coach was comparable to Amtrak traditional dining and far superior to Amtrak contemporary dining on the Lake Shore.



A blast of airline nicknames from the 1970s and 1980s:
People's Distress
US Scare--which IIRC started as a merger or expansion involving Agony Airlines (Allegheny, based in Pittsburgh)

Food wasn't the only or even primary factor that made this sort of joke common at the time. Train travel then was a lot more comfortable than flying, particularly coach.


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## MARC Rider

Rasputin said:


> The 1984 Delta meal in coach was comparable to Amtrak traditional dining and far superior to Amtrak contemporary dining on the Lake Shore.


The legacy airlines (i.e. United, Delta, Northwest, etc.) had domestic meal service in coach until the early 2000s. However, even in its heyday, it was never as good as Amtrak traditional dining, even the Antrak traditional dining after 2014 or so when things started going downhill. I had a nice meal in coach on British Airays in 1985, but that was an international flight. Coach meals were similar to contemporary flex, but maybe presented a little better, but nobody ever considered them a culinary experience, they were just useful to jeep from getting "hangry." Anyway, the whole point of traditioal dining wasn't necessarily the food, but that you got served sitting at a real table, not having a tray meal balanced over your knees on a folding tray table. You also got to look out the window while you eat, and maybe also get to meet some interesting dinner companions.

All domestic meal service in coach got hammered in the 1980s by PeopleExpress, Texas International, Continental (after Frank Lorenzo took it over), Southwest, etc. After a while, the legacy airlines had to follow suit or go out of business. 9/11 didn't help. The coronavirus pandemic isn't helping. This was a direct result of airline deregulation and the fact that most airline passengers now look for the lowest fares and don't really care about the level of service. I have now been conditioned to accept a 6 hour coast-to-coast flight with absolutely no meal service. I just have to remember to bring a Clif bar or buy carry-on at the airport.


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## MARC Rider

tricia said:


> A blast of airline nicknames from the 1970s and 1980s:
> People's Distress
> US Scare--which IIRC started as a merger or expansion involving Agony Airlines (Allegheny, based in Pittsburgh)
> 
> Food wasn't the only or even primary factor that made this sort of joke common at the time. Train travel then was a lot more comfortable than flying, particularly coach.


USAir was actually OK. They had nonstop BWI-SFO in the 1990s, which I flew a few times, and they were just as good as United. Full meal service, bu the way.

PeopleExpress had $19 fares BWI-NWK circa 1982-3, at the time they were cheaper than Amtrak coach. I took one once. A 45 minute flight, bascially a parabola, ascent for 20 minutes, the plane tilts down as we pass over Philly, and then a 20 minute descent into Newark. They let you off in the old Art Deco terminal from the 30s or 40s, I don't even know if the building is still standing. I also took them to Sarasota, FL a couple of times in the early 80s. No onboard service, but it was OK for the 2 hour flight, better than having to take a legacy airline to a major airport an hour or two away from where I was going. The bit about doing the credit card transactions after everybody was boarded was weird, though. What if somebody's credit card didn't clear or they had no cash? Were they going to give them a parachute, open the door and toss them out? (Of course, there was no internet back them, so the only way they could have people prepay would be to hire ticket agents at the airport, which apparently was not part of their business model.)


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## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> The bit about doing the credit card transactions after everybody was boarded was weird, though. What if somebody's credit card didn't clear or they had no cash? Were they going to give them a parachute, open the door and toss them out? (Of course, there was no internet back them, so the only way they could have people prepay would be to hire ticket agents at the airport, which apparently was not part of their business model.)


How would they know if it didn't clear? Did they radio-phone for authorization? Or did they just take paper charge slips on signature & faith, and process them later on the ground?


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## jiml

tricia said:


> A blast of airline nicknames from the 1970s and 1980s:
> People's Distress
> US Scare--which IIRC started as a merger or expansion involving Agony Airlines (Allegheny, based in Pittsburgh)
> 
> Food wasn't the only or even primary factor that made this sort of joke common at the time. Train travel then was a lot more comfortable than flying, particularly coach.


You forgot a couple - America Worst (merged with US Air), Air Can't-ada (still around), Keeps Losing Money (KLM) and my favorite as an AA flyer: Airline Meals Eaten Regularly Induces Cramps and Nausea. I've avoided dozens that involve safety records or accidents.


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## Palmland

I still fondly remember my 50% off student fare that put me in first class on an AA flight from National to Memphis. A steak dinner with all the trimmings and, being the good college student, a couple boubon and water courtesy of AA. It's enough to make you stay a student for a long time.

In later years I was practically commuting on Eastern from Jax to BWI. I had enough FF miles to always upgrade and received their great service that included unlimited wine, hot towels, and of course meals. So what if it was often late and the DC-9's belched smoke like an Alco. Even though the crew was trying hard, it was kind of bittersweet though as everyone knew the end was near.

Good service doesn't have to cost much. A lesson Amtrak hasn't learned.


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## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> The majority of Amtrak travelers, even on the long-distance trains, don't ride overnight, and can get by perfectly fine with this meal service.


I can get by without eating any Amchow at all, but that doesn't mean I'm eager to pay top dollar for the privilege of preparing and packing my own meals. If Amtrak shared the savings of stocking and serving such cheap food it might not bother me as much, but the current pricing makes their flexicon food service look like a joke.



MARC Rider said:


> The legacy airlines (i.e. United, Delta, Northwest, etc.) had domestic meal service in coach until the early 2000s.


This must have been limited to cross country travel because none of those airlines served domestic coach meals on my flights. Continental still served domestic coach meals until being purchased by United but that was it over here.


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## Dakota 400

Rasputin said:


> I remember traveling by coach on Delta about 1984 and the meal was very good.



I remember very good meal service on Delta at least through 1986 in coach. Was served a very good steak dinner on one flight and really remember being surprised that one choice was steak. My return flight was on American and have no recollection of the meal; must not have been impressive or memorable. 

Don't remember the exact year, but it was in the early 2000's, a December flight from Houston to Anchorage on Continental. A nice meal was served after we left Houston and an hour or so before arriving in Anchorage, a hot sandwich was served. When my flight attendant served me, I told her how surprised I was. I'll never forget her response. "We don't want our passengers to starve to death." My return flight was also on Continental.

However, on a Continental flight, again in the early 2000's, from Rome to New York, the lunch served was mostly inedible (and I am not a picky eater). A hot sandwich was served shortly before arrival at EWR. It was quite good; certainly better than lunch.


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## Willbridge

Hmmm... it seems that almost every carrier has a sarcastic nickname. In addition to some above I recall Worst Coast Airlines (West Coast), the Peoples Airline (Air Canada in Cold War days), Untied (United).

I had two pretty good dinners on United while being shipped from Fort Lewis to Fort Ord in 1969. My seatmate couldn't eat his due to the rough winter flight so I ate his, too. My only recent flights have been on Lufthansa and the meals were small portions but excellent. On one trip there were some extra desserts and they offered me one. If Amtrak's MRE's were as good as Lufthansa's well-thought out meals it would cut way down on the complaints.


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## Palmland

I well remember Agony (Allegheny) airlines. Things didn’t improve with USAir. Piedmont was so much better. Sadly they were devoured by USAir.


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## bratkinson

My favorite airline always was and always will be 'the Ruptured Duck', aka, 'the Blue Goose', aka North Central Airlines. They covered 5 upper midwest states in all weather. They merged with Southern Airways to become Republic Airlines and it was downhill from there.

One time I flew NCA into Traverse City MI, that did NOT have a tower, but was controlled by ORD, in a blizzard about 11PM. There was at least a foot of snow on the runway and I knew from talking with the crew in earlier trips that the runway was the shortest possible for a DC-9. We had a flawless landing. Another time, landing in Madison WI to a surprise freezing rain, again in a DC-9, we slid sideways at a 45 degree angle when the pilot touched the brakes but he instinctively knew to 100% reverse thrust on the engines and the nose swung right around! Snow and ice were never a surprise. It was standard operating procedure.

Contrast that to pilots that fly, say, MIA-LAX day in and day out, then get bumped or bid on a MSP routing. How would you like to land with THAT pilot in what could be his first blizzard?


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## Bob Dylan

My favorite nickname after Agony, is still "Tree Top Airlines" , the old TTA, Trans Texas Airlines, that ended up being part of Continental after all the Mergers!


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## Night Ranger

Anyone else recall Ozark Airlines? The army almost flew me from Nashville to San Antonio but for some undisclosed reason sent me via Greyhound instead. It was a long, tedious ride but, from what I heard later from some of my fellow trainees, it was probably a blessing. They flew Ozark to Memphis, Tree Top Airlines to San Antonio. None of the accommodations were deluxe and the ride was bumpy the entire way. 

Later, all of us flew in a lot worse aircraft under worse conditions but that trip was memorable to them because of Ozark and TTA.


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## me_little_me

Palmland said:


> I well remember Agony (Allegheny) airlines. Things didn’t improve with USAir. Piedmont was so much better. Sadly they were devoured by USAir.


Wasn't one of those three known as the "Vomit Comet"?


Bob Dylan said:


> My favorite nickname after Agony, is still "Tree Top Airlines" , the old TTA, Trans Texas Airlines, that ended up being part of Continental after all the Mergers!


Actually, TTA bought out Continental but kept the Continental name.

Methinks this thread has gone wild and the airline stuff belongs elsewhere.


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## MARC Rider

Air New England! They were the puddle jumper that did the milk run up Maine from Boston Logan. I had an uneventful flight on a de Havilland Twin Otter from Boston to Auburn-Lewistown in 1973, but my girlfriend booked a flight from Newark the next year even though the Auburn-Lewiston airport was closed for runway construction. We spent the afternoon driving down to Portland to find out where she was, and eventually they put her on a flight to Augusta where we picked her up. She came up on a DC-3, and was looking a little green around the gills as she stumbled off the plane. Anyway, nobody took that airline for the in-flight service!


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## Dakota 400

Night Ranger said:


> Anyone else recall Ozark Airlines?



Yes, I do remember the airline, but never flew on them.



Palmland said:


> Piedmont was so much better.



DAY was a hub for Piedmont; (much taxpayer's money was spent to accommodate Piedmont at DAY; not certain that the bonds issued to finance the accommodation has yet to be fully paid). Non-stop service for those of us who live in this area to many cities on comfortable planes with good service.

One Piedmont flight I took was a dinner flight to Boston. The entree was a bowl of Vegetable Soup. The soup was good, but the flight was bumpy and it was a challenge to keep the soup off me and on the spoon, then into my mouth. I thought that to be an odd dinner entree for a flight.


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## Palmland

Night Ranger, I flew on Ozark, twice. Both of them were memorable. My first flight, courtesy of my grandmother, was about 50 miles on a DC-3 at age 9 or 10 from Clarksville, TN to Nashville. The second was about 15 years later flying from Nashville to St. Louis to catch the GM&O‘s Midnight Special to Chicago. As we made our approach the pilot said we might want to stick around to see a flight land that couldn’t get its landing gear down. I did, but was kind of anti climatic. It was a prop plane with high wings on the fuselage. It landed in a spray of foam and went a very short distance before stopping.


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## bratkinson

The talk about regional airlines reminded me of my two favorites: Trans Michigan and Trans Missouri.

On Trans Michigan, flying in to TVC from DTW, about 5 minutes before touching down the pilot came on and advised everyone if they were interested in getting a beagle puppy, talk to him after we've landed. Now THAT was a friendly airline!

Trans Missouri took me from Lake of the Ozarks MO to St Louis a couple of times while I was working on a project in a small town in Missouri. I had driven to Camdenton MO from Springfield MO and was going to fly home for a weekend from Lake of the Ozarks airport. When I arrived, the place was completely deserted. I parked my rental car and went inside and nobody was there, either! A little later, a 12 seater landed on the grass runway, and out came the pilot to the terminal. He made out my ticket, ran it through the credit card imprinting machine, took my luggage and told me to board and take any seat. He opened the nose of the aircraft to put my garment bag in as there wasn't space in the passenger cabin for anything more than a briefcase. He boarded, pulled up the steps, got in the pilot seat and off we went. A few weeks later, just before Christmas, I repeated the trip and was an expert at how things are done at Lake of the Ozarks airport. I always liked those small regional planes as I could sit directly behind the captain and watch all the dials and gauges with him. We were landing at Ft Leonard Wood Army base in MO as an intermediate stop and about a second after the wheels first touched the runway he gave it full throttle and pulled the stick all the way back! He got on the PA and annouced that one of the snowplows was still on the runway!

One of the things about flying around the USA on business in the late '70s and early '80s is the number of 'scares' I encountered, and a few laughs... One I especially remember was while waiting in line at DEN to take off, looking out my window I and everyone on my side of the plane watched a small private plane (Piper Cub size) do what must have been a 10 'big bounce' landing. I'm thinking he bounced it 6-10 feet in the air each time! It must have been the student pilots' first landing. Of course, the whole right side of the plane was in tears from laughing so hard while watching the show! Fortunately, he got it landed and we were airborne shortly thereafter.


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## Marty605

Nick Farr said:


> View attachment 17969
> 
> 
> Here's the Pasta & Meatballs, "Penne Pasta with Tomato Sauce, meatballs, Parmesan and mozzarella cheeses."
> 
> This one was the most true to form of all of them, a close second for me to the Creole Shrimp (which is to be avoided if you don't like spicy).
> 
> The pasta was maybe a little mushier than I would have liked, but the meatballs were shockingly good. The tomato sauce had a very nice flavor to it. Definitely one of the highlights, even though I'm not a pasta and meatballs fan.
> 
> The only dish I was not able to review was the Chicken Fettuccini.



Thanks for the picture! Was wondering how it looked! Does the tomato sauce have any spicy ingredients? Wondering i got issues with tummy and avoid onions...TMI i know!!


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## pennyk

Marty605 said:


> Thanks for the picture! Was wondering how it looked! Does the tomato sauce have any spicy ingredients? Wondering i got issues with tummy and avoid onions...TMI i know!!


Unfortunately, Amtrak does not provide ingredients for their flex meals. Since that post was made in 2020, I believe the flex dining menu has changed. Maybe someone who has traveled recently can review the current selections.


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## saxpower

Here is the current menu: https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...ts/menus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-0522.pdf.


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## Marty605

Thank you!!


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## dlagrua

As we get ready to return to the rails in 2023, I must say the flex dining menu doesn't look that hot. A few years back on the Cardinal there was an abbreviated menu served in the "dinerlite" car. The food was similar to what was served on the traditional dining menu ( but no steaks) and were reheated meals in a convection oven. They were served on sturdy plastic plates that looked similar to Amtrak china. The presentation was nice, meals were decent, and even the breakfast omelets if not overheated were moist and tasty. The cafe car itself had a separate Chef/server that took care of the meals. I wish Amtrak would go back in this direction.


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