# Silver Star sleeper update



## CHamilton (Apr 10, 2015)

> —Following concerned statements made by the passenger community following the suspension of the ability to book sleeper reservations on the Silver Star, Amtrak confirmed to NARP that it will not be removing sleepers from the service.
> 
> Amtrak will, however, be testing a new food service; an official announcement on the details of this change is coming early next week. The railroad will start taking reservations for sleepers again by next week.


NARP Hotline #906


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## Anderson (Apr 10, 2015)

This is what I was told in confidence the other day (but couldn't post since confidence is confidence). I don't think anyone knew if NARP was going to roll an announcement out today or if it would be stuck until Monday.


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## peconicstation (Apr 10, 2015)

Glad to hear there will be an announcement, but why all the uneeded drama, just announce it already.

It will be interesting to see just what this "new" food service option will be, OR will it just be a rehash of what has been tried already.

I say this in part of there was a time when the Meteor and Star were changed to a "buffet style" diner, and another, where is an effort to cut costs,

the full service diner was only available south of D.C.

Stay tuned................

Ken


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## Anderson (Apr 10, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> Glad to hear there will be an announcement, but why all the uneeded drama, just announce it already.
> 
> It will be interesting to see just what this "new" food service option will be, OR will it just be a rehash of what has been tried already.
> 
> ...


Well, I think the "south of DC" situation might have coincided with a different schedule for the Meteor (particularly southbound). IIRC the train used to leave NYP sometime after 1900, which would have meant that trimming 6-8 hours of crew time by basing them in DC instead of New York would have made at least some sense (you'd only have had time for at most a single dinner seating).

As to the drama...my read on this is that Amtrak has been trying to figure out how to do this without completely blowing up their customer base in the process. Ultimately on some level, they get to call the shots on this (however well they might be doing so is something of a take-home exercise for all involved).

For what it's worth, this is far from the only time I've been unable to discuss information until it was made public...and I'm not the only one on the board who has been in this position over the years. Most of us who have been involved in passenger rail advocacy have come into information that we haven't been able to talk about publicly because of an information embargo of some sort (and/or until someone else lets it leak, which lets us off the hook). Witness the way part of this story came out initially: A columnist had to wait to be told the story a second time before he could discuss it because he was told privately to begin with.


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## NE933 (Apr 10, 2015)

There are some people who feel it is not our right or privilege to know such information until some almighty figurehead, who ironically is paid by our fares and taxes, gets to decide when. And to be fair, some news must be withheld to avoid a panic or, if it involves contract negotiations, or bidding for a procurement, in which public knowledge simply blows the cover off what the other guy is holding at the poker table. But this is a case in which much heartache could have simply been avoided. Either say the whole damn thing or don't say anything at all.


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## Anderson (Apr 10, 2015)

NE933 said:


> There are some people who feel it is not our right or privilege to know such information until some almighty figurehead, who ironically is paid by our fares and taxes, gets to decide when. And to be fair, some news must be withheld to avoid a panic or, if it involves contract negotiations, or bidding for a procurement, in which public knowledge simply blows the cover off what the other guy is holding at the poker table. But this is a case in which much heartache could have simply been avoided. Either say the whole damn thing or don't say anything at all.


Well, I think if Amtrak had gotten their way nobody would have said anything until Monday (and that includes stuff from the last few weeks). Clearly that did not happen. As I understand it, NARP more or less told them "We're getting hammered with questions and concerns so you _really_ need to come up with an announcement".

The problem is that I don't think Amtrak knew what they were going to announce and were trying to work that out...but they wanted to minimize the number of people who would be stuck with a product they didn't order (witness the situation with the wine and cheese on the Starlight, where they got stuck bringing it back on several trips because I think they had a tour operator ready to sue or something like that). The multi-week suspension of sleeper sales didn't help at _all_ with this objective (which, with all of Arrows goofs over the years, would probably have just gone down to "Arrow is stupid" in a vacuum), but the big thing was the crew talking up what was about to happen which got _everything_ spinning up.


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## fulham (Apr 10, 2015)

Again I will bring you what I think is going on...

* The current Heritage diner fleet is getting very old.

* Maintenance work needs to be performed on some of the diners this summer.

* It makes no sense to spend money on these cars with the new VII diners around the corner.

* Amtrak decided the Silver Star made the most sense, of all the long-distance eastern trains, to give up their diners so the LSL, Meteor and Crescent would have available diners.

* There are 25 VII diners on order.

* If Amtrak only decides to equip the LSL, Meteor and Crescent with the new diners, that leaves 11 in service and 14 for "protection".

* Once the new diners have been delivered, I predict the Silver Star will get its diner back.

* Will the Cardinal get some of the new diners...I doubt so given that it would greatly increase the cost of one of Amtrak's worst performing LD trains.

Bottom line...we are getting worked up over a decision that makes sense given Amtrak's current focus on cost reduction.


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## jis (Apr 11, 2015)

**Like**


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> Glad to hear there will be an announcement, but why all the uneeded drama, just announce it already.


+1



peconicstation said:


> It will be interesting to see just what this "new" food service option will be, OR will it just be a rehash of what has been tried already.
> 
> I say this in part of there was a time when the Meteor and Star were changed to a "buffet style" diner, and another, where is an effort to cut costs,
> 
> the full service diner was only available south of D.C.


My thoughts are going more toward each "*first class*" sleeper passenger will be handed a brown paper bag by the attendant, containing a peanut butter sandwich, an apple, and a juice box.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> > Amtrak will, however, be testing a new food service; an official announcement on the details of this change is coming early next week. The railroad will start taking reservations for sleepers again by next week.


So, we as passengers will get to vote with our dollars for meal plan "A" or meal plan "B", based on our booking on the Star or booking on the Meteor?


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## Train2104 (Apr 11, 2015)

I hope the public announcement clearly says "this is an effort towards achieving the reduction in food service costs mandated by Congress", so that the public can see how insane the micromanaging is.


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## willem (Apr 11, 2015)

> But this is a case in which much heartache could have simply been avoided. Either say the whole damn thing or don't say anything at all.


As Anderson implied, Amtrak tried to do it as suggested. The problem was that part of not saying anything at all would have meant continuing to offer a product that was expected not to be available. The solution was to say as little as possible, by withdrawing from offer the product that might not be available, without comment. An observant consumer noted and questioned the change, and Amtrak continued with the not saying anything at all.

It looks to me like Amtrak did the best it could to follow the quoted advice. I would rather that ideas spring fully developed, but that's not the way it happens. I have an email from a Chief at my employer stating a temporary policy, with the note that final policy is coming. The email is three years old. Amtrak will do better than my employer because next summer will come in less than three years.


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## Palmetto (Apr 11, 2015)

Guest said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > Glad to hear there will be an announcement, but why all the uneeded drama, just announce it already.
> ...


Amtrak hasn't used the phrase "first class" for quite some time relative to long distance services. And rightfully so, I think.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> Amtrak hasn't used the phrase "first class" for quite some time relative to long distance services. And rightfully so, I think.


That's why the phrase was put in quotes. 

Though, if sleepers are not first, name a higher class of passengers, on LD trains.


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## Rail Freak (Apr 11, 2015)

"Rail Freak"


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## Ryan (Apr 11, 2015)

fulham said:


> Again I will bring you what I think is going on...
> 
> * The current Heritage diner fleet is getting very old.
> 
> ...


This all sounds very reasonable. Anyone know about the supposed maintenance? Inspections coming due?


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## neroden (Apr 12, 2015)

Let's hope that the "no dining car" experiment is an abject failure, with massive drops in revenue on the Star. Then Amtrak can go back to Mica and say "See, we tried it your way, now let's do the right thing and upgrade dining quality."

Degrading dining service causes nothing but damage... but the question is whether it will cause *minor* damage (in which case Amtrak may continue on this stupid and ill-advised path) or *major* damage (in which case Amtrak will backtrack and reverse course). Here's hoping for major damage.

I will point out again that I am OK with alternative ideas for delivery of quality dining service. So far, Amtrak has not proposed any -- they have simply proposed quality cuts.


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## R30A (Apr 12, 2015)

Honestly, I think Amtrak is intending for this to fail. They are setting up their worst peforming daily LDSL train to be missing the diner, which can be measured against the best performing LDSL train which will have a diner, which is coincidentally one which has a better schedule, and a higher capacity. 

"Look: We ran the experiment! The train without the dining car had substantially lower ridership and worse cost recovery than the train with the dining car!"


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 12, 2015)

With all the money being invested in _*NEW *_and_* EXPENSIVE*_ Viewliner 2 Diners, Amtrak has no intention of wanting to eliminate Dining Car Service. Trust common sense on this one.


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## Shanghai (Apr 12, 2015)

I was on the southbound Silver Meteor yesterday. My SCA told me that the dining car will be removed

and the Café Car service will be the provider of food service for the entire train. I realize that the existing

dining cars are old, but they work fine from my perspective. I hope we do not have to stand in line to get

our food on 26+ hour ride!!


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## R30A (Apr 12, 2015)

I was on 98 yesterday too! Which sleeper were you in?


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## Anderson (Apr 12, 2015)

Common sense says that Amtrak is not going to simply not use the new diners. I agree. I can also agree with the idea of needing to pull a few diners from service for maintenance. Why this wasn't held off until post-July is a good question, but I'm going to blame the cycle of bidding for jobs (IIRC it's a six-month period you bid for) and simply putting a crew out for half a period wouldn't fly because you'd end up with no diner but still paying some of them _something_ and/or staff in an uproar about having a job but no work).

I'd be up for trialing the diner-club option proposed by Amtrak (where food service is provided by just the diner and the cafe is cut). Honestly, I'd also like to see Amtrak put a bit of effort in on the alcohol front (one thing VIA does with great effect is nudge folks to buy quite a bit of booze on the Canadian; I would think that similar efforts would have some effect on the Builder, Zephyr, and some other trains).


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## DooBdoo (Apr 12, 2015)

MACHINES! VENDING MACHINES!

Put in a $5.00 bill and get an ice cold egg salad sandwich!

I wonder if they will reduce the price of the "no diner" tickets????

HA!


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## Ryan (Apr 12, 2015)

I'll bet you they do.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 12, 2015)

I know none of us want to go back to the SP Automats. But my fiancées college has some really good vending machines for products like ice cream and frozen food. Might be good if a microwave is provided.


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## Palmetto (Apr 12, 2015)

Anderson said:

_I'd also like to see Amtrak put a bit of effort in on the alcohol front (one thing VIA does with great effect is nudge folks to buy quite a bit of booze on the Canadian; I would think that similar efforts would have some effect on the Builder, Zephyr, and some other trains). _

No one ever has to cajole me into buying liquor when I'm on Amtrak!  However, I always bring private stock when I'm in a roomette.......!

A price reduction back to $6.00 would be nice, though!


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## Anderson (Apr 12, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> _I'd also like to see Amtrak put a bit of effort in on the alcohol front (one thing VIA does with great effect is nudge folks to buy quite a bit of booze on the Canadian; I would think that similar efforts would have some effect on the Builder, Zephyr, and some other trains). _
> 
> ...


Well, a good example of what might be worth the effort would be having a diner-club (as discussed above) and then having the cafe car stock slightly less in terms of snacks (shunt a good deal of that to the diner-club) and actually enable some stocking of more of a selection of stuff for mixed drinks. You'd have more or less the same staffing requirements, but you could probably improve the net performance of your OBS by a few percentage points.*

*No, really...add 30 drink sales/trip to a one-night train as a result of this adds $153,300 to the gross of the OBS side of things. I can't speak to the costs (though it isn't like a bottle of whiskey has a short shelf life, so spoilage should be limited), but even taking the effort to match (for example) the availability on Virgin America would probably help their bottom line substantially. Even if the net, system-wide, only came to $1-2m/yr, (A) that's still a substantial reduction in losses and (B) if you increase both sides of a fraction you're inherently improving the resulting ratio.


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## Shanghai (Apr 12, 2015)

I was in 9712, Room 6.


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## DinerLite (Apr 12, 2015)

Official announcement is coming tomorrow, Monday 4/13. Space will be loaded back into Arrow with lower "non-meal" fares (maybe we should start calling these slumber-roomettes). Only available food service will be the standard cafe-lounge menu along with the complimentary water, juice and coffee currently served in the sleepers. Sleeping car passengers may purchase lounge food and "enjoy" in the lounge or their room. The evaluation is scheduled to run July 1, 2015 to January 31, 2016. Amtrak will monitor the cost savings and customer (dis)satisfaction during the evaluation period.

Sleeping car passengers already booked on 91/92 after July 1 will be contacted and offered three options:

1) No penalty refund between original fare and the new, lower fare without meals. 
2) Rebook to the Silver Meteor. The original fare will be honored if the Meteor is higher. A refund will be processed for the difference if lower. If the Meteor is sold-out, sleeper passengers may rebook within a four day window on either side of the original travel date. (This is not an option for RGH, CYN, SOP, HAM, DNK, CLB or CAM passengers. TPA and LAK passengers can rebook but have to ride a bus to/from ORL.)

3) Full refund without penalty.

Coach passengers may also call in and rebook on the Silver Meteor at no charge, but no change to travel dates is permitted. If the Meteor is a lower fare, refund will be issued with no penalty.

Some background on the fare buckets: Currently, there are five sleeper buckets: S, A, B, C, D. Three new buckets are being added for the lower non-meal fares: E, F & G. Unknown if only those three fares are being offered or if they will be sold in concert with C and D to maintain five buckets.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming months... Sigh.


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## greatcats (Apr 13, 2015)

If I should take that train, the plan would be to bring a cooler and visit a gourmet deli prior to departure. I prefer dining cars, but their cuisine has become BORING.


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2015)

In my case, it's going to be MREs...lots and lots of MREs. When I'm on this train I actually plan to take pains not to spend a cent on any food or beverage service post-July 1. I'd be a little bit more understanding if the cafe were going to be beefed up a bit..

To be fair, I'm saving my worst epithets for members of Congress (not to be delivered in person, sadly).


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## Amfleeter (Apr 13, 2015)

There's now a sleeper train with worse food service than the _Cardinal_, which can still claim to have a diner of sorts.

That really hits hard to the Silver Star. How bad does the Star perform?


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## xyzzy (Apr 13, 2015)

I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.


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## Hungrey (Apr 13, 2015)

Note to self, pack "dorm size" refrigerator, microwave, and hot plate when taking the Star.

Load up on snacks and such from the ClubAcela before boarding. Run into WAS ClubAcela for refills.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 13, 2015)

I imagine the delay in the announcement & making bookings available was due to the necessary work to update Arrow & the website. These things take time.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2015)

xyzzy said:


> I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.


I have always taken the 91 Star southbound (fits far better into the real world schedules than the Meteor), from Philly to Orlando, and the *diner is always packed*. With or without "reservations", there is always a line on the Sleeper end waiting for a table, and every table is full.


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2015)

Guest said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> > I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.
> ...


I've seen it break both ways. It is often packed south out of RVR, a bit more sparse north out of RVR, and it is often quite full north out of ORL. But it varies and I've seen it randomly rather empty as well.


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## VentureForth (Apr 13, 2015)

Poor OBS! They'll have to survive 28 hours without flat iron steak. 

Sarcastic silliness aside, these trains often run out of food in the cafe. Now they want sleeper pax fighting with the proles for microwave burgers?

The continued decay of Amtrak continues behind those shiny new baggage cars and ACS's.


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> Poor OBS! They'll have to survive 28 hours without flat iron steak.


My understanding is that the OBS often pack their own food, if just because it gets so repetitive. The repetitiveness was actually part of why, when they had two menus on the Silvers, they had them distributed like they were: So the crews got both menus.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 13, 2015)

Isn't this basically a version of the old slumber coach service that is so fondly remembered by so many? I'm not so sure that it will be a failure. There could well be a market for a lower cost, no-frills sleeper service to Florida. The question that will be answered later today is how much lower cost.

While we love to blame Congress and "micromanaging," I fail to see how that is the case here. Micromanaging is telling someone not just what to do, but specifically how to do it. Congress simply told Amtrak to cut food and beverage losses. Amtrak is deciding how to do it, and this trial run is one of the ways. The reality is that a disproportionate amount of Amtrak's operating loss is due to food and beverage. The other costs like fuel, equipment maintenance, operating crews - the stuff that is most commonly associated with running trains has steadily been coming in line with revenue. Food and beverage, not so much, and the full service dining cars are responsible for the vast majority of that loss. Amtrak has set a goal of eliminating the food and beverage losses in five years. Something has to give to make that happen. With no change, we could literally reach the point where all the requested federal operating subsidy is for food and beverage, which is kind of nuts.

Now, having said that, this is not the way I would do it. Were I in charge of the Amtrak world, I would have taken the opposite route. I would administratively separate the sleeper service from Amtrak and operate it as a separate, for profit business unit. Amtrak would charge the sleeper unit for the avoided cost of operating the sleepers and other cars specific to the sleepers on the train. The cost of providing the sleeper service would be on the Sleeper BU. I would beef-up service and amenities, and to provide a true "first class" experience. Sleeper fares would be set based on the estimated cost, likely higher than today, but with the expectation that the on board experience, including food and beverage, would be similarly better and much more consistent. The expenses of the sleeper food and beverage operation would be rolled into the overall sleeper unit expenses, and then would be covered by the overall sleeper unit revenue. If that worked, and this separate sleeper business unit is shown to be profitable, then the cost of food and beverage for that service would not be an issue for the federal subsidy. It would simply be one of the costs of an otherwise profitable and fully separate operation.

Joe Boardman and company has decided to take the cheap it down route. It might work, but if it does it will be at the expense of what many of us consider to be the rail travel experience. Make no mistake, this is Amtrak's choice. Congress only said to cut food and beverage costs. Amtrak is deciding how, and it appears, this is how.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2015)

I agree with PRR. A full service first class Sleeper service through a Sleeper BU would be the way to go. That is somewhat like how the old railroads did it with Pullman before they decided Pullman was costing them too much and decimated it, only then to follow with decimating passenger service altogether in many cases (there were a few exceptions). Meanwhile I would be a very happy camper with a no frills Sleeper service with provision for adequate basic meals separate from the ticket at a reasonable price, run by whoever. What I desire most while traveling is a flat place to sleep on and adequate food. When I need gourmet meals I go to Mortons.


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## Tim Lynch (Apr 13, 2015)

xyzzy said:


> I've posted this before but here goes again. The Silver Star serves three markets: New York - Raleigh, intra-Florida, and a lesser number of people who ride overnight. The Star does reasonably well in the first two markets. Few short-haul passengers use the diner. I've had dinner in the diner on 91 at 7-7:30 pm and seen fewer passengers in it than Amtrak staff.


Susan and I ride the Star frequently Hollywood FL to Tampa and return. Don't kid yourself, Tampa with one train a day is Florida's 3rd busiest station. Auto Train Sanford #1, Evil Mouse (Orlando) #2 and Tampa is #3. We get a roomette, have lunch on our way to Tampa and Lunch again when we return. It's a busy diner both ways.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 13, 2015)

In my experience, the Meteor's diner has always been much busier than the Star's. But that's only based off of a few overnight trips I've taken on both trains.


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## Ryan (Apr 13, 2015)

jis said:


> I agree with PRR. A full service first class Sleeper service through a Sleeper BU would be the way to go. That is somewhat like how the old railroads did it with Pullman before they decided Pullman was costing them too much and decimated it, only then to follow with decimating passenger service altogether in many cases (there were a few exceptions). Meanwhile I would be a very happy camper with a no frills Sleeper service with provision for adequate basic meals separate from the ticket at a reasonable price, run by whoever. What I desire most while traveling is a flat place to sleep on and adequate food. When I need gourmet meals I go to Mortons.


Hopefully this is a role that the new Pullman folks can be successful at and expand past the CONO route.


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2015)

The issue is that trying to separate the F&B from the trains themselves is something of a fool's errand. Really the only place where the F&B pay for themselves is on the Regionals (Amtrak rolls the Regionals and the Acelas together, but the Regional cafes are serving 2-3x as many customers as the Acela cafes are)...and this has rather always been the case (on-board food service has rarely turned a profit, though I suspect the occasional well-stocked bar has done alright for itself).

The real issue is (setting aside the mess of the Viewliner IIs) that Amtrak's LD trains have not, until this year, recieved any new equipment in something like 20-25 years while Amtrak was forced to dump the Heritage sleepers because of the dump toilets. Even then, the order was utterly insufficient for the needs Amtrak has had and the result has, in so many words, been that as ridership has risen Amtrak hasn't exactly been able to meet demand. Let's consider how often the sleepers were sold out on one or both of the Silvers over the last month or so.

Amtrak has attempted things like this before. The CCC effort wasn't a bad idea, particularly as it was aimed at a train with very low ridership. That experiment disintegrated as ridership rose. This isn't to say that, in the short term, an effort to make one food service car work on a train couldn't pay off...but it needs to be something more than a baseline Amcafe. I was talking with Charlie a few hours ago, and even if Amtrak did something like copy the Cascades cafe service levels over to the Star it would be an improvement. The problem is that now the Star is set to have even worse food service than the Cardinal, and I've avoided that train like the plague in no small part because of the food situation.

Back around to the point on "micromanagement", Congress seems prone to setting up tangles of mandates for Amtrak that are effectively impossible to meet. It isn't enough for Amtrak to nearly eliminate operating losses (and to really just need to be able to get the Acela IIs into operation to eradicate the rest of them), they also need to eliminate them in a specific line item. If the mandate were to knock losses down by $75m (IIRC that's about the amount of the claimed OBS loss) in the next five years then I think Amtrak could do that without even trying even without the Acela IIs. Instead, the mandate is to eliminate losses in a _specific_ business unit...and one that has room to make a cross-country trip friggin' miserable if implemented nationally.

Edit: I have to seriously wonder what would happen if Amtrak pulled this on the CONO and Ed Ellis threw the doors open on his diner to Amtrak's passengers (albeit on a for-pay basis).


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## jis (Apr 13, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Edit: I have to seriously wonder what would happen if Amtrak pulled this on the CONO and Ed Ellis threw the doors open on his diner to Amtrak's passengers (albeit on a for-pay basis).


That would be almost like the return of the Harvey House model on Santa Fe, no?


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 13, 2015)

Now that we know the plan,let the thumbs down begin!

The only way I would ride the Star to Florida overnight would be South bound if doing a turn in Orlando like some of us have been known to do! For sure bringing my own food and beverages would be job one!

If the new quasi Slumber Coach buckets are low enough to entice riders to fill all the rooms, that isn't a bad idea but as was said, the long lines @ the cafe and the limited fast food type choices of items offered for sale, as well as running out of items, will offset the appeal of this idea.

The Silvers new slogan could be " Let them drink coffee, juice and bottled water, and let them eat cake!"

And what about the OBS, are contract workers protected and will bumping begin as union members decide they would rather work the Meteor? Will there be two LSAs in the Cafe? Will the Diner on the Meteor have beegmfed up staff to handle the additional Sleeper etc.??

Even though I don't wish Amtrak ill, this is a typical Washington group think decision that will satisfy no one including the mica managers in Congress!

Thumbs Down to this experiment, it's a Lose/Lose for everyone!


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 13, 2015)

Sleepers are available online now, but no mention, that I can see, that meals are not included.  Didn't look at the icons. That will probably trip some people up if they're used to meals being included.

Price difference (just the roomette) between Star and Meteor (WIL to ORL) $166 vs $289 on Oct 7th.


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## Train2104 (Apr 13, 2015)

The press release...

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/68/104/Amtrak-Lower-Sleeping-Car-Fares-to-Florida-ATK-15-022.pdf


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 13, 2015)

I can see one possible benefit from this. Those people who would normally only ride coach due to the high cost of rooms w/meals, may now try a room. And you know what AUers say - "once you've tried a room(ette), you'll never go back".


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 13, 2015)

Confused. So are cafe meals included, or not? I'm guessing - not.

jb


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## Paulus (Apr 13, 2015)

I predict much wailing and gnashing of teeth here and on foamer boards followed by Amtrak continuing it after a successful trial run.


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## Ryan (Apr 13, 2015)

John Bobinyec said:


> Confused. So are cafe meals included, or not? I'm guessing - not.
> 
> jb


Not.



Paulus said:


> I predict much wailing and gnashing of teeth here and on foamer boards followed by Amtrak continuing it after a successful trial run.


Concur. The one thing they're missing (and maybe they'll do this once the new diners start coming online) is sleeper fares without meals included on a train that has a dining car. I'd gladly take a paid trip with cheaper fares and only eat a meal or two from the dining car and supplement it with my own food, cafe car food, or meals before/after the trip.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 13, 2015)

The big issue is stocking enough food in the cafe car. If the stock runs out with some passengers going to the diner, it's only going to be worse with this set up. How and where is the extra food stored?


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 13, 2015)

I'm one of the first to book a slumbercoach this summer. I'll let you know how it goes


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## andersone (Apr 13, 2015)

To me it seems like a reasonable experiment. Two similar geographic routes,,,, one with and one without.

I only hope they are collecting enough data to make a reasonable comparison,,,,,

let the rider beware !!


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## jebr (Apr 13, 2015)

I don't think that you could get the business in the dining car to support the dining car if all customers had to pay for it out of pocket. Most people would take the option of maybe eating one or two meals in the dining car and not eat an "expensive" meal in the dining car. If that happens, then there's less money going into the dining car. Unless they can reduce the costs beyond what they'll lose from income (and yes, sleeper car passengers pay to the dining car through their meals) it'll make the financials worse...and I can't see that ending well for the dining car (as what is there left to cut that would have a substantial impact on cost?)


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 13, 2015)

Looks like the prices for rooms on the Meteor have changed as well (and just scanning through a few dates, appear to be at the lowest bucket for now). If you booked rooms on the Meteor for this time period, I'd compare your fare to what it is now.


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## VentureForth (Apr 13, 2015)

From a customer point of view, let's look at what the customer gets for less. Let's suppose a trip from Tampa (furthest single-seat ride only available on the Star) to NYP. The cost for a day in May, total, is $628. Let's just assume you can get four full meals (D,B,L,D). Then assume $30 per meal. If the sleeper will now cost $500, is out still worth it? Or would they reduce by $240, the cost of two people eating? $380 may be too little. Then you run into inventory problems.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 13, 2015)

Too bad Amtrak couldn't possibly invest into an option with a beefed up cafe car. If we have diner-lite, maybe the Star should be cafe-heavy. Offer a slightly better selection of food, with maybe two attendants working, but still skip out on the premium food (steak, etc).


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2015)

Can two people eat all their meals in the Café car, and have a good meal there, for a total of $65 (NYC to MIA)????

BTW, by "good meal", I don't mean quality as much as quantity in this comparison. And by "quantity", I mean a full meal, not just a bag of chips for lunch.


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## Henry Kisor (Apr 13, 2015)

Now how will this play out with AGR points? Will sleeper rooms on this train use fewer points because no meals are served?


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## Ryan (Apr 13, 2015)

I have reached out and asked that exact question. I'll post when I hear something.


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## sitzplatz17 (Apr 13, 2015)

So I just took a look at a random date in July (the 24th) and the roomate on 91 from WAS to ORL is only $7 more than the flexible coach fare.

It'll be interesting to see how this experiment works. I might look to give it a try sometime this summer...


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2015)

Again, the issue isn't the presence/absence of bundling (I do wish a slumbercoach-ish option was available more often)...it's more the fact that now one can't get anything better on the Star than one can on the Adirondack. Note well that I've frequently cursed the food options (or lack thereof) on the Adirondack.

As I think I've said several times (and I'll probably say a few hundred more over the course of this), the issue isn't that they're going to one food service car. The issue is that they're likely overloading said food service car and aren't offering any real "entree" options (sorry, but a burger doesn't quite cut it). Going to one FSC (be it a "cafe plus/diner lite" or a "diner-club"/counter-service diner) with menu options somewhere in the middle wouldn't be the end of the world, but the complete removal of "full meal" service is the problem.

Edit: This experiment raises _another_ question...namely, as some others have noted, how many sleepers could you pack with prices reduced to these levels? Up in the Northeast, low-bucket sleepers are now on par with low-bucket Business Class (I think the difference RVR-NYP is $7 for the Star versus Regional BC on most trains).


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 13, 2015)

Henry Kisor said:


> Now how will this play out with AGR points? Will sleeper rooms on this train use fewer points because no meals are served?





RyanS said:


> I have reached out and asked that exact question. I'll post when I hear something.


My thinking is "why"? Let's say you book a room for a longer distance than me which would cost you $65 more if we both paid cash. We both would still have to spend the same # of AGR points for the trip.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2015)

I just rebooked my trip from Orlando to Washington DC for the AU gathering changing over from the Meteor to the Star saving over $300 in the process. At least I am a happy camper. I can put up with burgers, little pizzas and Amspecialty sandwiches for a day.  I will use the money saved to have some good food in DC and then some.


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## Ryan (Apr 13, 2015)

As it stands now, "price" in points depends on zones (all of the Silvers are one zoners, so not important) and level of amenity provided. Coach, gets you a seat. Roomette gets you a small room and meals. Bedroom gets you a big room and meals. A similar parallel on Acela Express where one of the biggest distinguishing factors between Business and First is the meal and beverage service. It would be nice if the number of points required for a meal-less sleeper is less than one that does provide meals. I suspect that they're not going to do it for a 6 month trial, but if this becomes permanent, I'd hope to see it.


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## MrFSS (Apr 13, 2015)

jis said:


> I just rebooked my trip from Orlando to Washington DC for the AU gathering changing over from the Meteor to the Star saving over $300 in the process. At least I am a happy camper. I can put up with burgers, little pizzas and Amspecialty sandwiches for a day.  I will use the money saved to have some good food in DC and then some.


Jis - when you make the reservation for the reduced food service train, are they in any way telling you of the food car situation?

That is, if they aren't, won't there be some really upset folks who book and after they board the train find out there isn't a dinner?

Maybe I missed it, but they should be telling those who book this reduced service train that it is indeed without a dinner.


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2015)

Guest said:


> Can two people eat all their meals in the Café car, and have a good meal there, for a total of $65 (NYC to MIA)????
> 
> BTW, by "good meal", I don't mean quality as much as quantity in this comparison. And by "quantity", I mean a full meal, not just a bag of chips for lunch.


No, to put it simply. The Cafe car doesn't stock enough food. They run out of the sandwiches way early.


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2015)

jis said:


> I just rebooked my trip from Orlando to Washington DC for the AU gathering changing over from the Meteor to the Star saving over $300 in the process. At least I am a happy camper. I can put up with burgers, little pizzas and Amspecialty sandwiches for a day.


Watch out for when they run out of sandwiches & pizzas somewhere around Savannah, or maybe Jacksonville. You will not be a happy camper then.


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2015)

sitzplatz17 said:


> So I just took a look at a random date in July (the 24th) and the roomate on 91 from WAS to ORL is only $7 more than the flexible coach fare.


Geez. Amtrak is going to hemmorhage money at those rates. Watch for the sleepers to be removed from the Star and assigned to higher-profit trains ASAP.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> sitzplatz17 said:
> 
> 
> > So I just took a look at a random date in July (the 24th) and the roomate on 91 from WAS to ORL is only $7 more than the flexible coach fare.
> ...


Flexible coach fares are usually high in the first place - because they're "flexible".


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> sitzplatz17 said:
> 
> 
> > So I just took a look at a random date in July (the 24th) and the roomate on 91 from WAS to ORL is only $7 more than the flexible coach fare.
> ...


This presents a bit of a mess. I suspect that Amtrak will probably end up re-pricing those rooms up a bit (not much, but a bit), though there's probably an element of pricing things low to start with due to uncertainty on how this will play.


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2015)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Edit: I have to seriously wonder what would happen if Amtrak pulled this on the CONO and Ed Ellis threw the doors open on his diner to Amtrak's passengers (albeit on a for-pay basis).
> ...


Now *this* is a business model I would support. It would work for both companies and for the passengers.


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2015)

chrsjrcj said:


> Too bad Amtrak couldn't possibly invest into an option with a beefed up cafe car. If we have diner-lite, maybe the Star should be cafe-heavy.


Now there's a good idea. But where are you gonna store the food? Maybe attach some kind of "diner car" with additional refrigerators and stuff?


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## Anderson (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


The problem is that I don't see Amtrak attempting to solicit such an effort. Thinking about this on the Silvers, a competent model would be for Amtrak to work out an agreement with someone (IP works here, but it need not be them by necessity) to run a diner. Let them stick however many sleepers on they want (within reason) at a reduced haulage rate in exchange, with only an agreement not to compete directly against Amtrak in terms of relative prices (that is to say, not undercutting Amtrak's low bucket). I _think_ something like that could work...Amtrak would basically provide "sleeper" class while the third party would provide "sleeper plus".


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## PupfosterG (Apr 13, 2015)

The concept of Iowa Pacific providing dining car service is thinking outside the box, but Amtrak axing diner and contracting food service out might violate OBS union rules? Thoughts?


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2015)

I may have a special perspective on this, since I am currently forced to eat all my meals except breakfast in the cafe car.

1 -- The cafe cars *routinely* run out of stock *well* before the last meal period is over. If this continues to happen, this will be a completely disastrous experiment.

2 -- The cafe cars have nothing suitable for breakfast.

Since neither of these problems have been addressed, this experiment on the Star is bound to be a customer service disaster.

If Amtrak could guarantee that they wouldn't run out of hot dogs in the cafe cars, I might think differently!


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## Paulus (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> sitzplatz17 said:
> 
> 
> > So I just took a look at a random date in July (the 24th) and the roomate on 91 from WAS to ORL is only $7 more than the flexible coach fare.
> ...


That's about in line with the typical F&B transfer, so no actual revenue loss.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


Maybe Amtrak should spin off its F&B services as an independent company or just contract it out including staffing, which basically amounts to the Harvey house model. One things that gravitates against that is the interesting set of Union issues this would raise. That would be one reason and probably a primary reason why the Harvey House model would not come to pass at Amtrak and most likely Amtrak passengers will not be allowed to use a Diner run by IP until the Union issues are ironed out. This would admittedly be kind of odd, since passengers can always bring their own pantry along with them ion the train, but they would be prevented from obtaining food on the train from a non-Amtrak source. I admittedly do not know what the stipulations in the Union cotnracts are, but I just suspect that it is probably quite restrictive, since I suspect that the primary goal of such contracts have nothing to do with preserving the interest of passengers or providing good service.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad Amtrak couldn't possibly invest into an option with a beefed up cafe car. If we have diner-lite, maybe the Star should be cafe-heavy.
> ...


I had mentioned in an earlier thread about running out of supplies perhaps a large Fridge/Freezer rig can be installed in the new Viewliner Bags to carry additional supplies. Those Bags are never going to be so packed full there will not be room for these; of course that will then require the Bags be oriented with the Food Storage end adjoining the next car. But now you can "tanker" enough supplies to make it end to end with Pizzas, Sandwiches and Cold Beer to spare


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## jis (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I just rebooked my trip from Orlando to Washington DC for the AU gathering changing over from the Meteor to the Star saving over $300 in the process. At least I am a happy camper. I can put up with burgers, little pizzas and Amspecialty sandwiches for a day.
> ...


On Amtrak that is expected and par for the course, and such things do not bother me too much. I have contingency options for such expected outages. 

I am just happy to get the cheap sleeper back. As you might be able to tell, I personally don't really care a heck of a lot specifically for the Diner experience. If it is there, fine, I will use it, specially if I have already been forced to pay for it. But if it is not there so be it.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 13, 2015)

jis said:


> I just rebooked my trip from Orlando to Washington DC for the AU gathering changing over from the Meteor to the Star saving over $300 in the process. At least I am a happy camper. I can put up with burgers, little pizzas and Amspecialty sandwiches for a day.  I will use the money saved to have some good food in DC and then some.


And that is a perfect example of why this trial may well work. Full dining service is an expensive operation (especially for Amtrak), and the service crew takes up revenue space in the sleepers. Not only are costs lowered by having a smaller staff, the roomettes that would have been occupied by the dining car staff are now open for sale. I hate to see it go this way, but for $300, I'd rough it and buy a sandwich, burger or Amdog. It's not like Amtrak meals are memorable dining experiences. Now, if the difference was $300 for a true first class experience, then maybe, but not for Amtrak sleeper.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2015)

neroden said:


> Watch out for when they run out of sandwiches & pizzas somewhere around Savannah, or maybe Jacksonville. You will not be a happy camper then.


How is Amtrak going to keep feeding Sleeper Class passengers, when the Star is 6 hours late? 12 hours late? 24+ hours late (been there, and the diner car did indeed keep feeding us)?

Or will it degrade to the same as Coach.... we wish you good luck!


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2015)

jis said:


> I just rebooked my trip from Orlando to Washington DC for the AU gathering changing over from the Meteor to the Star saving over $300 in the process. At least I am a happy camper. I can put up with burgers, little pizzas and Amspecialty sandwiches for a day.  I will use the money saved to have some good food in DC and then some.


Did I not read the press release correctly? I thought the savings was (a mere) $65?

Yea, if its a flat $300, then this might work.

I wonder if we need to set up a website for linking Pizza-to-Star enroute deliveries? "I need 27 pizzas to go"


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## jis (Apr 13, 2015)

The saving on a round trip was about $350. Of course YMMV since it also depends on which bucket the two trains are in at the point you do the comparison.



Guest said:


> How is Amtrak going to keep feeding Sleeper Class passengers, when the Star is 6 hours late? 12 hours late? 24+ hours late (been there, and the diner car did indeed keep feeding us)?
> 
> Or will it degrade to the same as Coach.... we wish you good luck!


They will not keep feeding the Sleeper passengers since the food is not included in the ticket. The Sleeper passengers like Coach passengers will get whatever is in the Cafe. For delayed trains they will use the same techniques that they use at present, which is either emergency packs or order from KFC en route or whatever.


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## jccpbc (Apr 13, 2015)

I have reservations on Silver Star roomette in September and just got an email from Amtrak advising that they are running a test from July 1 through Jan 31, 2016 eliminating the diner car. Sleeping passengers can opt to buy food in the Café/Lounge car. They have adjusted fare on the rooms accordingly. I just checked the website and the roomette I paid $181 for is now $150. May be a different bucket rate than what I have I know and they offered me to call them and adjust my rate if I still want to travel or give a full refund. I will call and see what my rate will be but personally I do not like this option and do not plan on taking this trip. Hopefully this will let them know what I think of this option. Dining cars should not be removed.


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## niemi24s (Apr 13, 2015)

jccpbc said:


> I have reservations on Silver Star roomette in September and. . . I just checked the website and the roomette I paid $181 for is now $150.


I would advise you to check every few days and see what the fare does. With more than 5 months to go there's a chance the fare may change. But in my experience, there's no way to tell whether it will increase or decrease - or if it does _when_ it will change.


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## JoeBas (Apr 13, 2015)

Here's $31, and feed yourself with it (if you can).


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## NE933 (Apr 13, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> ...It's not like Amtrak meals are memorable dining experiences. .., but not for Amtrak sleeper.


I must chime in here. Except for the excessive bounce and jolt of the aging Heritage Dining car fleet, most of the meals I've had on Amtrak were very good, and memorable. I wish the Corelle plates would return, yes, but the food and service I have received over 33 years resulted in perhaps only a handful of mildly subpar to bad experiences. Now there are those that will feel that my words reflect a biased love of Amtrak, and those who know me will remember this: it does not have to be a five star ball and gown operation to be excellent. I expect nutritious food to be cooked well and served as nicely as possible on clean dishes with clean utensils. The chef and wait staff are to serve, but, not in slave-like servitude - - there is a difference. There are limitations in Amtrak's operations that must be accommodated: namely, only 48 person capacity in the single level fleet. Enjoy your food from start to finish, but then get up and leave to the lounge, coach, or sleeping room, since in many ways the Dining Car does have a conveyor belt type function of ensuring a train of hundreds of passengers get fed: no easy task. Small dissatisfactions shall be overlooked in the greater scheme of things, I mean, really. But there is nothing like a meal on a train of a national railroad with friends and family. Forget the velvety Phoebe Snows and 20th Century Limiteds; Amtrak can improve and when they do, will be the best thing on rails for today's generation.


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## Palmland (Apr 13, 2015)

If Amtrak is going to make this change, why not improve the offerings in the cafe car? Catered airplane food can be quite good. And why not have the SCA deliver it to your room, as they did for us on the Portland section of the EB. Much rather eat there than in that miserable cafe/lounge. I could handle a boxed, but high quality, meal with a glass of wine in a cozy roomette. Perhaps Amtrak wants this to fail.


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## Ken (Apr 13, 2015)

Here is the offical PR from Amtrak.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/68/104/Amtrak-Lower-Sleeping-Car-Fares-to-Florida-ATK-15-022.pdf

Ken


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## MrFSS (Apr 13, 2015)




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## neroden (Apr 13, 2015)

jis said:


> The saving on a round trip was about $350. Of course YMMV since it also depends on which bucket the two trains are in at the point you do the comparison.


Unfortunately for Amtrak, it looks like the actual reduction in bucket prices was a lot less than that. It seems that people are switching from the Star to the Meteor, shoving the Meteor into high buckets and dropping the Star into low buckets....
I'm not set on the "full dining car experience" either, but this is totally the wrong way to go about changing things. The *right* way involves upgrading the cafe experience until most people find it acceptable, which it isn't at the moment. Or trying something genuinely different in the dining car. Fast-food-style service with fresh omelettes and properly grilled hot dogs would be great as far as I am concerned. Keep the chefs on staff, drop the waiters, you'd be in profit quite quickly.


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## Ryan (Apr 13, 2015)

Henry Kisor said:


> Now how will this play out with AGR points? Will sleeper rooms on this train use fewer points because no meals are served?





RyanS said:


> I have reached out and asked that exact question. I'll post when I hear something.


No change to AGR awards.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 13, 2015)

Looks like the Meteor will be the AGR Award train of choice for trips to/from Florida!


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## AZ (Apr 13, 2015)

I say booooo. Much as the current dining car experience needs to be improved to be what I would consider suitable for passengers paying first class fare, it still beats cafe car food by a mile. I get that running dining cars is very expensive...but what I don't understand is why catered food seems to be the last thing they will consider- if a 777 flying across the Pacific can dish out 2-3 meals and drinks to 300 people including 60-70 first class, then you can do it too, Amtrak.


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## me_little_me (Apr 13, 2015)

PupfosterG said:


> The concept of Iowa Pacific providing dining car service is thinking outside the box, but Amtrak axing diner and contracting food service out might violate OBS union rules? Thoughts?


You hit the nail on the head. The union is not going to stand by and watch Amtrak take away their jobs and outsource them. It's one thing to cut back on service but another to outsource them to a private company. The unions will put pressure on their favorite congressmen. Now the left will hate Amtrak as much as the right. Sheesh!


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## DryCreek (Apr 13, 2015)

Seaboard92 said:


> I'm one of the first to book a *slumbercoach *this summer. I'll let you know how it goes


Ahh, the old "everything that's old is new again" business model. How did it work in the early 90's with the dedicated Slumbercoach cars? I wouldn't know where to find the data on that, but I suspect that since it didn't survive it must have fallen out of favor?

There was an old video from the 90's showing the different classes of travel. Some young woman and her son go coast to coast courtesy of Grandpa


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## jis (Apr 13, 2015)

It didn't survive because no one was going to convert those Slumbercoaches with dozens and dozens of toilets into holding tank affairs.


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## StriderGDM (Apr 13, 2015)

As I've said elsewhere, this sort of solution would cause me to take the plane over the train.

While the dining car is not the greatest food out there, most of my experiences have been fairly good and I look forward to the social atmosphere and the meals.

Even when I cheap it in coach overnight, I make a point of getting my meals in a dining car. If there's no dining car, I can tell you right now I'm NOT going to settle for a reheated pizza in the cafe car.

For some this might work, but for me it would result in me taking my money to Southwest.

Had this been in effect for my travels last summer I would have flown.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2015)

Miami <--> Tampa roomette fares don't seem to have dropped much. I think they were pricing about $130 last time I looked. In June 2012, I paid $99 for MIA-TPA, $34 railfare and $65 for the accommodation charge, IIRC.

The new slumbercoach fare is $128. That's an $87 accommodation charge on the $41 railfare. No thanks, coach will do just fine.

For comparison to the Meteor, I looked at MIA-WTH on a random Wednesday in August. 92 prices at $127 and 98 is $208 ($168 accom charge). That seems way out of whack. Did they jack up 97/98 to make the new "lower" fares look even better? I hope someone with recent fare experience on 97/98 can chime in here.


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## Anderson (Apr 14, 2015)

Ok, I'm sliding into my love of operations, but...

I do honestly wish that if they were going to do the slumbercoach routine, they'd do it properly with a higher-density accommodation. On the other end of things, I do think that a sleeper-with-just-a-cafe routine would work for somewhat shorter runs (I'm thinking in the 8-14 hour range).


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## VentureForth (Apr 14, 2015)

If I were a Tampanian, I'd be really angry. First, the availability of sleepers has just been reduced because shorter distance travelers are taking up the discounts when meals don't really matter. Meanwhile, if I travel from Tampa to New York, I'm either going to bus to Orlando or I won't get a meal because I can't wait 30 minutes in line for a burger.

They need the cafe car to be 24 hours, and they gotta figure out where to store extra food. What a disaster! I understand this may look great to folks between Orlando and NYP, but not happy for TPA and Lakeland folks (and let's not forget the folks between Savannah and Rocky Mount).

jis' reservation change is exactly what is WRONG with this change. There is no need for jis to take the Star over the Meteor, except to save over $300, R/T. The calling times at departure and arrival stations are not that far apart. But that takes space away from anyone wanting to take a sleeper from the _Star's_ exclusive serving points. And for those who DON'T have choice will miss out on AGR redemption and food. It's over 24 hours from NYP to Tampa. A long time to go without real food.

Yes, folks do it in coach every day. But there is a segment of folks (Especially to/from FLORIDA!!!) who are a) willing to pay for the perks, and b) perhaps not as healthy to want to wait in line for food.

I would be interested to find out how much room is used to store food on Trans-Pacific flights.

I also still support Waffle House taking over the diner with their full menu AND crew and see if they can't turn a profit.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2015)

> meals delivered to their rooms upon request,


How is this going to work on the Star? When meals were included, the SA would simply get your choice of food from the Dinning Car and bring it to your compartment. But now that one has to pay for the food from the Café Car, do you just hand the SA cash? Your credit card?


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## jis (Apr 14, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> I would be interested to find out how much room is used to store food on Trans-Pacific flights.


The trans-Pacific flight that I am somewhat familiar with is United's Newark to Hong Kong nonstop which is 15 hours and 55 minutes. I am very familiar with some trans-Atlantic flights of almost equal length like United's Newark - Mumbai, which is 15 hours and 25 mins (about 60 miles shorter than Hong Kong), and Newark - Delhi (100 or so miles shorter than Mumbai). All the food is stored in the two galleys on the 777. All storage is in preloaded standard food containers that are rolled on board from catering service trucks, and stashed into slots into which they fit exactly. Over that period two and a half meals are served to each passenger at their seat. The two full meals typically are a dinner and breakfast, and in Business First (50 seats) they are substantial meals. Dinner includes nuts with pre-dinner drink, appetizer, salad, main entree (4 choices, western, Asian, Vegetarian) served separately in sequence followed by, fruits and cheese and ice cream sundae with individual choice of toppings plus choice of wines, after dinner liquor, tea and coffee and a choice of soft drinks etc. Breakfast in BF is also substantial with three choices. The half meal consists of an open buffet with sandwiches, dessert (several choice), drinks and fruits, which remains in place for about 8 hours mid flight. Generally the mount of food served is more than I can consume in that period of time. The general description is from what was served to us on my flight to and from Mumbai from/to Newark within the last three weeks. In Economy (217 seats) the meals are standard pre-packaged dinner (3 choice) and breakfast (3 choice) plus mid flight snacks.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2015)

Could "bulk" storage of food be done in the baggage cars? Could the shiny new Viewliner baggage cars be outfitted with refrigeration and freezer units? The Café Car attendant could just pull the appropriate stock out of the baggage car, as needed, like before each major meal time.


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## ABQFloridian (Apr 14, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> If I were a Tampanian, I'd be really angry.


I will be going to wee my parents in St. Petersburg, across the bay, in June via the Star. If the dining car stays off, I do not see myself ever riding this line again, certainly not from NYP to TPA. Even for TPA to MIA, which I used to do when I lived in FL, I would just take a bus, since I can pack better food than the shlock in the "café".

If they rerouted the Meteor to Tampa, I could live with that. Until the do that or restore the diner to the Star, it's Southwest for my travel to TPA. I need some semblance of real food on a 24+ hour trip.

Some thanks for being the 3rd most used station in FL.


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## neroden (Apr 14, 2015)

I guess Amtrak figures it can afford to alienate customers, particularly in Tampa, and lose business on the Star for several years (it'll take several years to recover from this, even if it ends promptly next January) in order to demonstrate to Mica that he's wrong about food service. :sigh: Expensive demonstration. Amtrak could have run a lot of additional service or made a lot of upgrades for the amount of money they're about to burn.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm glad I rode the silver service trains last summer. With the diner, the star was one of my favorite rides. With no diner I am not remotely interested.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 14, 2015)

Hmm, looks like I might be able to get a good deal on the SS this fall if I decide to take a loop to the Gathering since no one else (except Jis) will be riding it. Assuming the SS's timing will meet my needs.


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## Anderson (Apr 14, 2015)

If they're going to seriously attempt this as a long-term "thing", they could arguably rip out a table or two and put in a storage unit (or, alternatively, somehow retrofit the luggage racks in the cafes...a lot of cafes do have them, and with some reinforcement and/or wiring work you could probably put storage/refrigeration units up there).

Really, it should not be hard to add a decent entree or two to the menu; I've also mentioned this before, but they could arguably offer the option to reserve a meal ahead of time as well so as to help with knowing what to pack (similar to the "Book the Cook" option that I believe Singapore offers).

Again...the issue isn't whether sleepers include meal service as a fixed item . I don't think that "bundle" has ever been _that_ much of a big deal (the benefit of the sleeper space is the private room and/or the ability to lay flat). Rather, the issue is the general availability of food service on the train at an acceptable level. Remember, Amtrak can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that even with meal service included in the sleeper, 40-50% of diner traffic is generally from the coaches (and that is often actually limited by space availability...if a train is packed, you'll often get sleeper pax turned away from the diner).

What I would _like_ to see Amtrak experiment with would be removing the inclusion of meals _but not axing the diner_ in conjunction with the delivery of the Viewliner II sleepers. A decently-priced sleeper space sans meals ought to be spectacularly popular, which is the issue that Amtrak is (on purpose, rumor has it) confounding with the _presence_ of the dining cars on the trains.


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## I always rode the Southern (Apr 14, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> If I were a Tampanian, I'd be really angry. First, the availability of sleepers has just been reduced because shorter distance travelers are taking up the discounts when meals don't really matter. Meanwhile, if I travel from Tampa to New York, I'm either going to bus to Orlando or I won't get a meal because I can't wait 30 minutes in line for a burger.
> 
> They need the cafe car to be 24 hours, and they gotta figure out where to store extra food. What a disaster! I understand this may look great to folks between Orlando and NYP, but not happy for TPA and Lakeland folks (and let's not forget the folks between Savannah and Rocky Mount).
> 
> ...


Anger doesn't come close to describing my feelings about this, so much so, that I haven't been able to express myself on this subject before now.

How it affects us is that:

It would be stupid to take the star on an agr award so it requires a bus ride to/from Orlando and a bad arrival time in WAS/Tampa for me. Also if the meteor is running late getting lunch on board depends on which crew we get.

Doing some trial bookings, I don't see much $savings gained from loss of food service.

I try to never, ever, eat any food from the cafe car. If they would upgrade their menu to something like that offered on the cascades I would consider it.

So taking the star for a 22 hr. trip will require taking a cooler for food.

And.............

I will never hear the end of nagging from hubby and children about how much easier and quicker it would be to fly :angry2:


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## jis (Apr 14, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Again...the issue isn't whether sleepers include meal service as a fixed item . I don't think that "bundle" has ever been _that_ much of a big deal (the benefit of the sleeper space is the private room and/or the ability to lay flat). Rather, the issue is the general availability of food service on the train at an acceptable level. Remember, Amtrak can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that even with meal service included in the sleeper, 40-50% of diner traffic is generally from the coaches (and that is often actually limited by space availability...if a train is packed, you'll often get sleeper pax turned away from the diner).
> 
> What I would _like_ to see Amtrak experiment with would be removing the inclusion of meals _but not axing the diner_ in conjunction with the delivery of the Viewliner II sleepers. A decently-priced sleeper space sans meals ought to be spectacularly popular, which is the issue that Amtrak is (on purpose, rumor has it) confounding with the _presence_ of the dining cars on the trains.


I am all for that. That would also force them to make the offerings in the Diner more attractive and better priced since there would be no captive users of it. At present because they believe that they have a bunch of hapless Sleeper passengers stuck with whatever they will dole out in the Diner, they have little incentive to improve anything. That is the reason that they tend to foolishly ignore the 40-50% and potentially more users from Sleepers


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2015)

With the Dining Cars loosing money, how much "better priced" do you think the menu needs to be?


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## Anderson (Apr 14, 2015)

Guest said:


> With the Dining Cars loosing money, how much "better priced" do you think the menu needs to be?


I think if they went back to not breaking out the salads and certain drinks from the entree orders the prices would be pretty reasonable. Maybe _slightly_ on the high side, but I remember running the math and figuring that the price of a paid-for breakfast a few years back was a bit less than I'd pay at IHOP after taxes for about the same meal.


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## MDRailfan (Apr 14, 2015)

I also agree that they should add refrigerated storage space in the new baggage car.

Out of curiosity, just where are the commissaries located? If they added one in Savannah or Jacksonville, they could restock


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## cirdan (Apr 14, 2015)

neroden said:


> I guess Amtrak figures it can afford to alienate customers, particularly in Tampa, and lose business on the Star for several years (it'll take several years to recover from this, even if it ends promptly next January) in order to demonstrate to Mica that he's wrong about food service. :sigh: Expensive demonstration. Amtrak could have run a lot of additional service or made a lot of upgrades for the amount of money they're about to burn.


This is what I was thinking.

A loyal customer base takes years of hard work to build up but can be destroyed at the sweep of a pen. And all this just to make a point?


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 14, 2015)

This is an experiment. Maybe it will work,maybe it won't. People here are always calling for Amtrak to be innovative. Separating sleeper fares from food service (as was traditional on pre-Amtrak trains) may mean more people will ride in sleepers. Amtrak needs to think outside the box on the food service, however. Just running a cafe car won't cut it. Any change requires some kind of risk.


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## JoeBas (Apr 14, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> Separating sleeper fares from food service (as was traditional on pre-Amtrak trains) may mean more people will ride in sleepers.


I can't remember the last trip I took where there were even any sleepers available.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> I also still support Waffle House taking over the diner with their full menu AND crew and see if they can't turn a profit.


Unfortunately, such reports aren't the exception for Waffle House.

Waffle House gets lowest grade possible after inspection

Dirty Dining: Inspections reveal restaurant food, cleanliness violations

Pascagoula Waffle House cited for violation during recent health inspection

Newton County Waffle House fails inspection with a 56

Restaurant inspection: Stockbridge Waffle House fails second time


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## Bjartmarr (Apr 14, 2015)

From where I sit (Los Angeles), the prices in the dining car aren't bad at all, for an elegant sit-down meal in a unique setting. What they need to improve is the quality and presentation. The dining car should feel like a nice restaurant, not a Denny's.

If storage space for extra food is really such a problem, why don't they re-stock at a convenient mid-route station? And why can't extra nonperishables be stored in the baggage car?


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 14, 2015)

Bjartmarr said:


> From where I sit (Los Angeles), the prices in the dining car aren't bad at all, for an elegant sit-down meal in a unique setting. What they need to improve is the quality and presentation. The dining car should feel like a nice restaurant, not a Denny's.
> 
> If storage space for extra food is really such a problem, why don't they re-stock at a convenient mid-route station? And why can't extra nonperishables be stored in the baggage car?


There aren't really any "convenient" mid-route locations for restocking. Contracts with suppliers and procedures are set up for economies of scale at the terminals. To open up new intermediate ones will add a lot of cost - and delay the train.

As far as storing food, even non-perishables, in the baggage car, wouldn't that add a whole new level of inspection and cleanliness requirements? After all, since the inside of a baggage car is open to the weather at baggage handling stops, there's no way to keep that stuff from getting covered with dust, at least. And how do you maintain inventory control in an open baggage car? I suppose the new baggage cars could be retrofitted with locked and sealed food storage lockers, but that adds more cost as well.

There are no simple solutions to this mess.

jb


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 14, 2015)

From my own observations on the Carolinian, there already is a supplies storage problem. Two booths are routinely taken up with storage of dry goods such as napkins, plastic-ware, cardboard box-trays, etc...

Don't see where extra anything is going to be stored in the single cafe on the Silver Star during this experiment.

jb


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## greatcats (Apr 14, 2015)

I brought my own dinner from a deli in Basel, Switzerland station last year and had it in my sleeper room. It was not as tasty as I thought it might be. I did purchase a small bottle of wine from the measly snack bar on that train, which I believe has since been discontinued from Basel to Copenhagen. As I wrote in a trip report, I was disappointed in the train, although it was otherwise an effective means of transport between those two cities. Maybe the fares on these sleepers on the Silver Star will make it a fairly good deal, but i would certainly bring some of my own food on a trip like that, not relying on the mostly junky food in the Amtrak lounge cars. The most common item I purchase there is the hummus and crackers.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 14, 2015)

I have never purchased anything in the cafe on an Amtrak LD train, and never will as long as they continue to serve crap @ above 7-11 prices!

The best snack stuff I've encountered on Amtrak trains are in the Bistro Car on the Cascades, on the Downeaster, the Surfliners and on the Maple Leaf once the changeover is done in Niagara Falls,ON to a VIA crew and Canadian products in the cafe! ( including Coke and Canadian Beer and Liquor!)


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## Bjartmarr (Apr 14, 2015)

John Bobinyec said:


> There aren't really any "convenient" mid-route locations for restocking. Contracts with suppliers and procedures are set up for economies of scale at the terminals. To open up new intermediate ones will add a lot of cost - and delay the train.


Is the cost of getting sandwiches delivered to a station really so high that it outweighs the lost opportunity cost of not having those sandwiches available for sale, which is the case now?



John Bobinyec said:


> As far as storing food, even non-perishables, in the baggage car, wouldn't that add a whole new level of inspection and cleanliness requirements? After all, since the inside of a baggage car is open to the weather at baggage handling stops, there's no way to keep that stuff from getting covered with dust, at least. And how do you maintain inventory control in an open baggage car? I suppose the new baggage cars could be retrofitted with locked and sealed food storage lockers, but that adds more cost as well.


Indeed, here on the harsh desert world of Arrakis, even the spare beer and napkins must wear stillsuits to reclaim water and keep out the harsh, everpresent dust. At times, even Amtrak's escort of Dothraki warriors in Stormtrooper armor is insufficient to keep the vicious Tusken Raiders at bay, and an entire shipment is lost.

More seriously, is dust really a pervasive problem on the new baggage cars? I have a hard time believing that. If it's really that bad, throw a sheet over the food, which is likely double-wrapped in plastic anyways. As for locking up the food...really? We're talking potato chips and Budweiser here, not heroin and golden ingots. If OBS is prone to steal stuff, they're likely rifling through passengers' luggage, not stuffing their pockets full of plastic forks.


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## VentureForth (Apr 14, 2015)

MDRailfan said:


> Out of curiosity, just where are the commissaries located? If they added one in Savannah or Jacksonville, they could restock


 Not in Savannah. Palmetto has to be stocked in NYP for the Southbound AND following Northbound trip! No wonder they often run out of food going North!



Bjartmarr said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > There aren't really any "convenient" mid-route locations for restocking. Contracts with suppliers and procedures are set up for economies of scale at the terminals. To open up new intermediate ones will add a lot of cost - and delay the train.
> ...


Not only scale costs, but also time to load. Savannah only has a 5 minute dwell. No palette loading, so everything has to be brought up steps (no high platform, either) and hand carried in. I don't think the Cafe Car has a door, so they have to bring it through a coach. Maybe I'm wrong there.



Guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > I also still support Waffle House taking over the diner with their full menu AND crew and see if they can't turn a profit.
> ...


Not gonna spend a whole lot of time with an anonymous guest. ANY chain can have bad reports. Period. At least you can see them cooking in front of you. I've never got sick at one, and even managed to lose weight having good food there. Besides, it's tongue and cheek as most of the regulars here know that I've made the claim that Waffle House can run a better diner than Amtrak for several years now.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2015)

Let's go ahead and squash the idea of putting refrigerators in the baggage cars. NOT going to happen. Neither will non-perishables be stored there. Do you really think LSAs will count inventory in two places, be accountable for inventory in two places and schlep it back and forth as needed? Absolutely not. Plus all the time spent in the baggage car is time away from the counter with the line building up. There is quite a bit of storage space in the lounge cars if utilized effectively. Not saying it is always sufficient on heavier days. It's all up to the LSA and how well they sort, arrange and pack the merchandise.


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## Big Iron (Apr 14, 2015)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Again...the issue isn't whether sleepers include meal service as a fixed item . I don't think that "bundle" has ever been _that_ much of a big deal (the benefit of the sleeper space is the private room and/or the ability to lay flat). Rather, the issue is the general availability of food service on the train at an acceptable level. Remember, Amtrak can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that even with meal service included in the sleeper, 40-50% of diner traffic is generally from the coaches (and that is often actually limited by space availability...if a train is packed, you'll often get sleeper pax turned away from the diner).
> ...


Count me in this camp too. Having ridden slumbercoach on the Broadway and paid for my meals in the diner and ridden the Twilight Shoreliner and got free food in the cafe I would gladly pay for food in the diner.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 14, 2015)

Guest said:


> Let's go ahead and squash the idea of putting refrigerators in the baggage cars. NOT going to happen. Neither will non-perishables be stored there. Do you really think LSAs will count inventory in two places, be accountable for inventory in two places and schlep it back and forth as needed? Absolutely not. Plus all the time spent in the baggage car is time away from the counter with the line building up. There is quite a bit of storage space in the lounge cars if utilized effectively. Not saying it is always sufficient on heavier days. It's all up to the LSA and how well they sort, arrange and pack the merchandise.


The OBS crew on a train should be expected to work as a _*TEAM!*_ If something is running low in the Cafe, the LSA there can make a "shopping list" and hand it to another OBS that is free. That OBS takes the locker keys, walks up to the Bag, fills the list, tallies whatever inventory control system is used and brings the supplies back to the Cafe. Same for the Diner which can be restocked in between meals.

And if OBS thinks that is too much work, they can be reminded there are likely plenty of apps on file from folks who want to work.


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## NE933 (Apr 14, 2015)

Droughts in California and Texas, where a lot of crops are, are causing food shortages and thus a surge in price. Add to that fracking waste water being dumped into California's groundwater is killing what does grow there, and now we have a perfect storm of rising food costs on Amtrak, and America, and possibly a small famine in our future.


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## The Davy Crockett (Apr 14, 2015)

IMHO: This 'test' service is just Amtrak trying to put a  over the fact they screwed up, as some of the heritage diners are in too dire a shape to last until the new diners come on line.


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## me_little_me (Apr 14, 2015)

NE933 said:


> Droughts in California and Texas, where a lot of crops are, are causing food shortages and thus a surge in price. Add to that fracking waste water being dumped into California's groundwater is killing what does grow there, and now we have a perfect storm of rising food costs on Amtrak, and America, and possibly a small famine in our future.


You forgot the global warming, troubles in the middle east, Chinese hackers, Ebola virus and the drop in the Euro. Then there is the increase in domestic violence and bad TV shows.

Amtrak will never survive these.


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## Rail Freak (Apr 14, 2015)

Being a relatively Amtrak New Comer, I'm not gonna judge & cross my fingers hoping that it all works out for the best!!!


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## AlanB (Apr 14, 2015)

There has been a lot of talk about lack of capacity for food in the cafe car, but this is not quite the big issue that many think it is IMHO.

First, a big part of the issue isn't capacity to store cold stuff; but rather simply failure to put enough into the cars in the first place. This is the fault of both Amtrak and the commissary with their rather conservative approach to not putting too much food on so that there is little to return and therefore little chance that anything spoils/reaches expiration date before it gets sold.

The Maple Leaf has always been a big problem, it often runs out of food on the return trip to NY from Canada. I always thought that it was a lack of capacity. A lack made worse by the fact that Amtrak must leave 1 fridge and 1 freezer empty at the border going north so that the VIA Rail crew has a place to put their stuff. I was dreading one weekend when my mom & I were returning from Toronto because it was a holiday weekend and I figured that food would run out even earlier than normal for this train. I even advised my mom that we needed to eat both lunch & dinner early to try to maximize our available choices. In the past I'd seen the Leaf cafe run out of pizza by the time it got back to Buffalo, or shortly thereafter.

I was greatly surprised to find out that we still had pizza as a choice by the time we got to Albany.  And most other choices for lunch dinner will still available too. On one trip in the past, I had breakfast for dinner, as that was the best choice left that year. But not this trip!

Being we were in BC I started chatting with the attendant when she wasn't busy and learned that the reason we still had food was because she had ordered extra from the commissary knowing that it was a holiday weekend, Labor Day, and she knew that she would sell more food than normal. And she was right! We did run out of many things by the time she closed up approaching NYP; but this smart & excellent employee had played things smart and had many happy customers simply because she took a bit of initiative.

My point in that long story is of course the simple fact that the storage is there! The problem is how much food is being loaded onto the car.

Second, as part of the Diner-Lite conversions, one of the things modified for the Amfleet II cafe cars was to add even more cold storage.

So while I'm sure on a busy train that they still might run out of things, especially if one misjudges what will be the most popular item, I don't think that Amtrak needs to be thinking about putting extra fridges & freezers in baggage cars or sleeper cars, or any place else. I think that the bigger problem with running out of things is simply how the car is being stocked by the commissary and not the cold storage space.

If one attendant can make the food hold out by requesting extra to go from NYP to Niagara (short 1 & 1) and back then there is no reason for the Palmetto to ever run out of food as that run is about the same length. And the Palmetto can restock in DC; the Leaf has no place to restock anymore.

Heck, I've seen crews run out of things on the Auto Train's cafe. Those Superliner cafes have even more storage than the single level cafe cars do. They can store enough to go two nights and three days on runs from Chicago to the west coast. So how can they not store enough food not to run out on the overnight AT?

Again, the problem isn't storage, but rather the way too conservative loading of the cars! And with the loss of the diner on the Star, Amtrak & the commissary need to double down and then some!


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## StriderGDM (Apr 14, 2015)

The Davy Crockett said:


> IMHO: This 'test' service is just Amtrak trying to put a  over the fact they screwed up, as some of the heritage diners are in too dire a shape to last until the new diners come on line.


I suspect there's more truth to that than some may think.

Though I think it's more a "don't bother doing another inspection" on several diners.

And I think it gives us an idea of when the new diners will start to show up.


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## Anderson (Apr 14, 2015)

As I think I noted before, I think some of this is down to the bid cycles. If I were in Amtrak's shoes I'd have put off this move until late August/early September...but I think a bid cycle probably comes up on July 1, hence the cut being timed for that. The January end...is probably more down to "traffic in January stinks" than anything, though I would expect the bid cycles to be roughly Jan. 1 and Jul. 1 (or otherwise synced six months apart)


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## Anderson (Apr 14, 2015)

You know, while I'm aware of the Star/Meteor situation...if Amtrak wanted to trial the "no included food service" thing in all seriousness, why didn't they try it on the Cardinal sooner? That's one train where the included meals probably aren't (normally...I got to enjoy the one exception though I was so busy with scenery that I forgot to grab dinner on my way into CVS) worth the cost.


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## Train2104 (Apr 14, 2015)

Also note that the full ridership/revenue impact might not be felt in this short trial period - if someone rides it in July and says "never again", that likely won't be seen as a lost customer until this person doesn't show up in next July's ridership count, since vacationers are a good segment of the market.


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## William W. (Apr 14, 2015)

Anderson said:


> You know, while I'm aware of the Star/Meteor situation...if Amtrak wanted to trial the "no included food service" thing in all seriousness, why didn't they try it on the Cardinal sooner? That's one train where the included meals probably aren't (normally...I got to enjoy the one exception though I was so busy with scenery that I forgot to grab dinner on my way into CVS) worth the cost.


The Cardinal would be the perfect train to try this on, considering that it already doesn't have a real diner.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the real reason for this "experiment" is likely to be that the heritage diners are in serious need of maintenance. Why not use this as an opportunity to test a different food service approach? If it fails, Amtrak has evidence that Congress is wrong. If it succeeds, they've found a way to dampen dining losses.

One thing I will say though, you won't see me spending money or points on the Silver Star until it gets full services back.


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## rtabern (Apr 15, 2015)

My prediction... this concept will spread to other one night LD trains... the Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans will be next. Think about it... the trains that have the CCC cars will have them go back to being snack cars again... instead of diners. Amtrak saves money on crews... passengers save money... and Amtrak can finally justify the poor decision to make the CCC. Cant you see it coming too?? I see traditional diners staying on two night trains for now... but any LD train with a CCC better watch out.


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2015)

William W. said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > You know, while I'm aware of the Star/Meteor situation...if Amtrak wanted to trial the "no included food service" thing in all seriousness, why didn't they try it on the Cardinal sooner? That's one train where the included meals probably aren't (normally...I got to enjoy the one exception though I was so busy with scenery that I forgot to grab dinner on my way into CVS) worth the cost.
> ...


Yes, in some sense the Cardinal makes more sense. But in other ways it doesn't.

Using the Star gives you a 7 day a week train to sample, instead of a 3 day a week train. And the Star probably sees more seniors than the Cardinal. Plus the Cardinal hasn't had a real diner in forever; so the impact on ridership/customer satisfaction would be less.

Finally, with the Star to some extent you get an extra control as you can compare things to the Meteor; as well as note the impact on ridership on the Meteor. Does it start selling out a lot more because of this experiment? Or not?

So while the impact would be less for the Cardinal on the public and Amtrak's bottom line, it doesn't test things near as well as using the Star does.


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## Anderson (Apr 15, 2015)

The Texas Eagle seems less likely because of the distances involved, as well as the through cars to/from the Sunset Limited which would make a real mess of things. For example, how do you handle folks in the through sleeper? Do they get meals included...but only west of SAS? Do only they get meals included (and not folks in the "regular" sleepers)?

The CONO would represent its own issues with Iowa Pacific running service on a regular basis there...though if Amtrak _really_ wanted to gamble on an experiment they'd cut the diner on the CONO _and_ do a deal with Iowa Pacific to cross-list IP's sleeper service (with included meal service) while letting them run as close to daily as IP is willing to and let them let people on/off at several intermediate stations (I'm sure you could pick out the larger ones...Carbondale, Memphis, etc. come to mind...which would either not require a double spot or are already long stops as is). Honestly, that would be as close to a perfect experiment as you could manage...but it would also run the risk of a catastrophic backfire (what happens if Iowa Pacific's service is suddenly shoved into being a runaway hit as a side-effect?).


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## jphjaxfl (Apr 15, 2015)

Anderson said:


> The Texas Eagle seems less likely because of the distances involved, as well as the through cars to/from the Sunset Limited which would make a real mess of things. For example, how do you handle folks in the through sleeper? Do they get meals included...but only west of SAS? Do only they get meals included (and not folks in the "regular" sleepers)?
> 
> The CONO would represent its own issues with Iowa Pacific running service on a regular basis there...though if Amtrak _really_ wanted to gamble on an experiment they'd cut the diner on the CONO _and_ do a deal with Iowa Pacific to cross-list IP's sleeper service (with included meal service) while letting them run as close to daily as IP is willing to and let them let people on/off at several intermediate stations (I'm sure you could pick out the larger ones...Carbondale, Memphis, etc. come to mind...which would either not require a double spot or are already long stops as is). Honestly, that would be as close to a perfect experiment as you could manage...but it would also run the risk of a catastrophic backfire (what happens if Iowa Pacific's service is suddenly shoved into being a runaway hit as a side-effect?).


*When the City of New Orleans was a single level train back in the 80s and 90s with a 10/6 heritage sleeper and Amfleet coaches, they carried an Amdinette similar to what the Lakeshore Limited had for a while. Sleeping car passengers were served "tray" meals similar to the Portland section of the Empire Builder.*


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

Anderson said:


> You know, while I'm aware of the Star/Meteor situation...if Amtrak wanted to trial the "no included food service" thing in all seriousness, why didn't they try it on the Cardinal sooner? That's one train where the included meals probably aren't (normally...I got to enjoy the one exception though I was so busy with scenery that I forgot to grab dinner on my way into CVS) worth the cost.


That is because it does not reduce the number of Diners required in service,  and possibly the associated staffing.

There are two drivers for this:

1. (My speculation) A few Heritage Diners are coming up for major mandatory maintenance which would be a waste of money given that their expected life after the overhaul is short. So just taking them out of service save money. But with those gone there is not enough Diners to provide that service on all low level LD trains. So what to do given the delay in the delivery of VLII Diners?

2. Being forced into such, might as well (stated reason) see if the experience with the Cafe service in trains like the Palmetto, which runs almost break even on F&B probably, can be repeated on the Star, and also see if it adversely affects revenue too much, compared to a train that is substantially on the same route with full service Diner.

Neither of these is addressed by doing anything with the Cardinal


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## PRR 60 (Apr 15, 2015)

I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option. The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

While us old rail travel types think a dining car is essential to the train travel experience, we may be in the minority. The lower cost of sleeper travel may trump that. If so, look for this experiment to continued and expanded.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2015)

StriderGDM said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO: This 'test' service is just Amtrak trying to put a  over the fact they screwed up, as some of the heritage diners are in too dire a shape to last until the new diners come on line.
> ...


If true, then there is hope.

Hope that the Dining Car food service (included or not included in the Sleeper fares), will return when the Viewliner Dining cars arrive.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option. The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.


Don't forget there is actually a third Florida train, the Auto Train. And the Auto Train, is actually the complete opposite, with dining car service included for even the Coach passengers.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

Guest said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option. The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
> ...


But it also requires that travelers bring along an Auto. So it is really not an apples to apples comparison.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> While us old rail travel types think a dining car is essential to the train travel experience, we may be in the minority. The lower cost of sleeper travel may trump that. If so, look for this experiment to continued and expanded.


If the rail passengers are similar to the airline passengers, then lower cost would likely trump higher service level for a majority of travelers. I really think there is room for two different levels of Sleeper service. There will always be a small group that will desire the higher more full service level, but they will never constitute a majority of travelers, specially in an environment where the middle class is feeling more and more squeezed every passing moment.

If you look at a country with huge disparities in income, like India, you find that only certain chosen prestige and usually higher speed trains have A/C First Class, while almost all mail/express trains have A/C Two Tier and Three Tier Sleepers, and many lowly trains have no A/C service at all. They make do with non A/C Three Tier Sleepers. Even those trains that do have A/C service, except for the likes of Rajdhanis and Shatabdis and some Durontos, have many more non A/C cars than A/C cars.. This roughly reflects the income distribution in the general population. That is reality


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## JoeBas (Apr 15, 2015)

Can we just hurry up and get to the bottom already?


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## rrdude (Apr 15, 2015)

AZ said:


> I say booooo. Much as the current dining car experience needs to be improved to be what I would consider suitable for passengers paying first class fare, it still beats cafe car food by a mile. I get that running dining cars is very expensive...but what I don't understand is why catered food seems to be the last thing they will consider- if a 777 flying across the Pacific can dish out 2-3 meals and drinks to 300 people including 60-70 first class, then you can do it too, Amtrak.


Amtrak seems to have dropped the moniker, "First Class" when it comes to sleepers, now calling it "sleeper class". Boy, are they living up to the name change. Not even an AmDinette? No flipping way. I expect passenger revolts. Four meals (end-point to end-point) in an AmCafe. I'd rather poke out my eyeballs with a dull stick. No "real" lounge car, no way to enjoy an even half-way palatable meal with new friends, over a bottle of wine or coffee?

So now Amtrak _really is_ just selling you a flat bed. This is basic transportation to the nth degree. I bet the troop sleepers built and used in WWII would get even more people riding, with the low expectations many people have today


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## rrdude (Apr 15, 2015)

Guest said:


> Could "bulk" storage of food be done in the baggage cars? Could the shiny new Viewliner baggage cars be outfitted with refrigeration and freezer units? The Café Car attendant could just pull the appropriate stock out of the baggage car, as needed, like before each major meal time.


Which is virtually what every dinner train does, stores the extra food/supplies in the power car. (The car providing HEP) Now, it's not nice to walk the length of the train, to get a box of burgers, but it's better than running out. Security of stock is called into question, if the sole LSA in the AmCan, has to make that walk.


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## rrdude (Apr 15, 2015)

Bjartmarr said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > There aren't really any "convenient" mid-route locations for restocking. Contracts with suppliers and procedures are set up for economies of scale at the terminals. To open up new intermediate ones will add a lot of cost - and delay the train.
> ...


Not just LSA, it's EVERYONE else on the RR, and _wayside stations_, (ticket agents, baggage handlers, electricians, cleaners, etc, etc.) who have access to the baggage cars. And, since it likely will not be locked, even passengers, willing to risk the wrath of the conductor, actually have access to the baggage car, in most instances.


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## Noah (Apr 15, 2015)

My family of 3 is taking the Silver Star from Washington, DC to Lakeland, FL on Sunday, which involves 2 roomettes. Booking the same trip, on the same trains, for a weekend in August yields the same base fares, but the sleepers cost a total of $470 less. I love the diner, but for that much cash, I'd probably just bring some peacock tails and cavier to snack on during the trip. Incidentally, that also makes the train a bit cheaper than flying for the trip.

The real question for me is whether the cafe will be stocked well enough and be able to handle the extra business.


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## me_little_me (Apr 15, 2015)

Anderson said:


> You know, while I'm aware of the Star/Meteor situation...if Amtrak wanted to trial the "no included food service" thing in all seriousness, why didn't they try it on the Cardinal sooner? That's one train where the included meals probably aren't (normally...I got to enjoy the one exception though I was so busy with scenery that I forgot to grab dinner on my way into CVS) worth the cost.


Because they know that the myriad of seniors would make a bigger stink if they got no food on the Star? Seniors like me tend to want to keep our old ways.


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## SarahZ (Apr 15, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. *The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option.* The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
> 
> While us old rail travel types think a dining car is essential to the train travel experience, we may be in the minority. The lower cost of sleeper travel may trump that. If so, look for this experiment to continued and expanded.


Agreed. I'm interested to see how this shakes out.

What might be interesting, on the other routes, would be to sell two classes of sleeper service. You could purchase room-only and bring food or eat your meals in the cafe, or you could purchase room+food.

We'd probably be in the room-only group. While we like Amtrak food, we often feel pressured to eat those three (substantial) meals every day, no matter how hungry we are, because we "paid" for it in our room fee. Additionally, 2-3 days of Amtrak's limited choices can really start to drag. I like most of the food, but I can only eat so much chicken and steak.

So, for travelers like us, and/or students/families on a tight budget, this model would be perfect.

On the other hand, you have people who not only love but expect to be served three squares in the dining car every single day, so it would behoove Amtrak to keep the diner around for those people. The big issue is that the people who pay for the room+food ticket may not be enough to support the cost of keeping a dining car on that train. The dining cars operate at a loss as it is.

Bottom line: I'm interested to see the results of the experiment. I'd be happy either way.


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## VentureForth (Apr 15, 2015)

AlanB said:


> Again, the problem isn't storage, but rather the way too conservative loading of the cars! And with the loss of the diner on the Star, Amtrak & the commissary need to double down and then some!


 Welcome home, AlanB! Missed ya!

Is it Amtrak or the Attendant making the stocking decisions? I would hope that there would be nothing in the stock that would expire outside of two weeks from when it's loaded. I would imagine that the Cafe Car Attendant would want to maximize stock to ensure NOTHING is sold out. Maximum revenue, after all, equals maximum gratuities. And if it's Amtrak's decision, I would suggest a shop steward get involved (And this is from a non-union sorta guy).



SarahZ said:


> We'd probably be in the room-only group. While we like Amtrak food, we often feel pressured to eat those three (substantial) meals every day, no matter how hungry we are, because we "paid" for it in our room fee. Additionally, 2-3 days of Amtrak's limited choices can really start to drag. I like most of the food, but I can only eat so much chicken and steak.


I agree the choices stagnate after three days, but what if you only had the Cafe for three days?


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## Anderson (Apr 15, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> I think the idea is to have this trial on a train that now has full-service dining and compare the revenue and expenses before and after. The Florida route has a unique attribute in that they can have the two levels of service operating side-by-side. They can examine the booking patterns of the two trains and see if there is a shift either to the lower cost option or to the higher service option. The duration of the trial provides a variety of expected passenger loads and types from family vacation to seasonal migration. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
> 
> While us old rail travel types think a dining car is essential to the train travel experience, we may be in the minority. The lower cost of sleeper travel may trump that. If so, look for this experiment to continued and expanded.


Yeah...the problem is that both trains were basically slammed full _before_ they did these cuts (witness the spring). Moreover, do pardon my borderline sarcasm, but what is Amtrak going to do if this is somehow a smash hit and sleeper demand skyrockets because of the lower price? Buy another 100 sleepers?

And of course, that's actually the rub: If they did this right they would probably have that sort of demand, but they _do_ need some sort of un-bundled but still present food service better than an Amcafe. The odd thing is that the more I think about it, the more this _would_ make sense on the CONO due to its shorter run (and the idea of pairing off with IP for some sort of regular beefed-up service on the side makes sense there, too, but good luck with that).


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

Before there was forced Diner feeding of Sleepers I have done cross country on Cafe food several times. It wasn't really that bad. Of course it was not as good as the Diner, but it is quite survivable. Then again in my student days I did cross country on Greyhound using an Ameripass couple of times too,  and food was not exactly gourmet at the truck stops either. Back then I was in a job just out of college dealing with all associated financial issues and I could not afford Diner. If the Sleepers were priced the way they are now, I would have simply avoided Sleepers. It was good that they were priced the way they were back then, and by the time the food inclusion thing happened I was financially better off, but still it basically kept me from using Amtrak for several years. Them are the financial realities of someone in college or just out of college. There is no getting around that.

I guess food does not exercise me that much when I travel. After having done trips on only hard boiled eggs and toast and Yak milk tea for over a week, anything else feels quite luxurious.


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## SarahZ (Apr 15, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > We'd probably be in the room-only group. While we like Amtrak food, we often feel pressured to eat those three (substantial) meals every day, no matter how hungry we are, because we "paid" for it in our room fee. Additionally, 2-3 days of Amtrak's limited choices can really start to drag. I like most of the food, but I can only eat so much chicken and steak.
> ...


We'd probably bring our own food and supplement from the cafe when we wanted something hot, similar to traveling in coach. It's much cheaper to buy groceries instead of cafe food. 

Plus, the cafe does have a decent amount of stuff to choose from. As I said, we really don't eat that much.


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## John Bobinyec (Apr 15, 2015)

I keep seeing the IP mentioned in conjunction with the CONO. How are they involved with each other?

jb


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## William W. (Apr 15, 2015)

The big question in my mind is how AGR awards will be affected. They can't seriously consider charging the same number of points for both experiences.

A cut in cost to 10-12K for roomettes, 20K for bedrooms would be in order.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 15, 2015)

John Bobinyec said:


> I keep seeing the IP mentioned in conjunction with the CONO. How are they involved with each other?
> 
> jb


They run the Pullman Rail Journeys that is pulled by the CONO.

http://www.travelpullman.com/

http://www.iowapacific.com/


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

William W. said:


> The big question in my mind is how AGR awards will be affected. They can't seriously consider charging the same number of points for both experiences.
> 
> A cut in cost to 10-12K for roomettes, 20K for bedrooms would be in order.


They are not changing the AGR award levels. We already have official word on that.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 15, 2015)

Looks like AGR Award trips to Florida will all be booked on the Meteor since "Less for the Same Price" isn't a policy most of us would want to follow!

And who wants to ride a bus from Orlando to Tampa when you're on a Train trip!!!


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## Anderson (Apr 15, 2015)

I would offer my opinion on the reward trip situation there, but to give a frank version would be to violate any semblance of civility.


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## willem (Apr 15, 2015)

The zone system is rather peculiar from the start. It costs the same to go from Chicago to Washington as to go from Chicago to Miami. To say that a discount is required for the WAS-MIA portion of the trip doesn't fit with the no-extra-cost of that leg.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2015)

Noah said:


> My family of 3 is taking the Silver Star from Washington, DC to Lakeland, FL on Sunday, which involves 2 roomettes. Booking the same trip, on the same trains, for a weekend in August yields the same base fares, but the sleepers cost a total of $470 less. I love the diner, but for that much cash, I'd probably just bring some peacock tails and cavier to snack on during the trip.


I'm not doubting you're saving that much, but with finding just a good lower fare bucket, I can save that much too, on two roomettes.

That is why I question what the true cost savings will be?


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2015)

jis said:


> They are not changing the AGR award levels. We already have official word on that.




:help:


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

By Amtrak's own admission the saving on two roomettes will be about $130 for similar buckets. However, keep in mind that typically Silver Star has always been lighter on Sleeper thus running a bucket or two behind the Meteor, hence the bigger difference perhaps.


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## I always rode the Southern (Apr 15, 2015)

I still don't see how this is going to allow them to draw any useful conclusions. The routes are not exactly the same and there are too many variables.

Those of us from tampa, and possibly sarasota down to ft myers who will only use the meteor for agr; may only use the star when meteor is SO, or only use meteor when star is So(and it happens often that there is only 1 choice on any given day); will use the star, but bring our own food and not spend a dime on board. etc.

If they really wanted to test this, go ahead and use the star, but keep the diner and have 2 sleeper fares. 1 with, 1 without. Then either advertise heavily for coach passengers to use the diner or even offer 2 coach fares; with or without food.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

I always rode the Southern said:


> If they really wanted to test this, go ahead and use the star, but keep the diner and have 2 sleeper fares. 1 with, 1 without. Then either advertise heavily for coach passengers to use the diner or even offer 2 coach fares; with or without food.


I would like to see that happen on all trains eventually. Sleeper folks who buy the higher level get a bunch of vouchers to use in the Diner and for whatever else the higher level entitles them to. Just like hotels have room rates with breakfast or even other additional services included or not.


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## VentureForth (Apr 15, 2015)

Now that's a product plan I can sink my teeth into. However, I think the diner relies on the no-show of sleeping pax to help pay for the diner to be in the consist.

Well, that's if the accounting is done right.


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## Anderson (Apr 15, 2015)

willem said:


> The zone system is rather peculiar from the start. It costs the same to go from Chicago to Washington as to go from Chicago to Miami. To say that a discount is required for the WAS-MIA portion of the trip doesn't fit with the no-extra-cost of that leg.


Agreed. The system is overly simplistic (it is basically the same as it was when it was started in 2000 or so) and subject to all sorts of interesting exploits (for example, WAS-CHI costs the same as MIA-ELP/ABQ/DEN via the Cap, via the LSL, [assuming you can get that booked] or via the Cardinal. A high-bucket roomette in the latter cases can easily blow through $1200 whereas in the former case via the Cap you're looking at perhaps $400 on a bad day). It does need to be tightened up.

The problem is that, even though the Star is sort-of isolated in the LD system (probably a lifesaver in this case), there's still a disconnect insofar as on all 12 other overnight trains the sleeper reservation involves meals (the Palmetto doesn't run overnight, 66/67 doesn't have a sleeper, and the Auto Train is _sui generis_). The only case where I think you're likely to get someone connecting to/from the Star is if it involves connecting to the Crescent (which the Star has better connections to/from than the Meteor does).


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## PupfosterG (Apr 15, 2015)

I could do without meals included in my sleeper fare with two considerations, first improve the sleeping class amenities and service. The quality of service varies too much between trains and between crews. (Last trip one sleeper had coffee out all day, another train only had coffee 6a-11a).

Let's ramp this a up a notch or two. Second, if I have to purchase my meals I'd like to see an improvement in the variety of the selections in both lounge car and diner and also a little larger portion size. As others have mentioned, a craft beer, or regional foods would be nice. As far as restocking enroute, I assume most major food vendors (Sysco types) are located near most national chain restaurants. Whom ever Amtrak contracts with probably has a national presence. With POS basic staple items could be restocked enroute.


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## NE933 (Apr 15, 2015)

I'll reiterate some previous posts in the form of hope and prayer, that this is merely a temporary way to bring speeds up to 125mph by eliminating Heritage equipment from the consist, and possibly raise speeds slightly on CSX, albeit minimal.

And yes, it will show that passengers are living creatures that need nourishing food, that an Amfleet cafe I or II will not hold enough for everyone for all 3 meals PLUS snacks PLUS a drink or two.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> Now that's a product plan I can sink my teeth into. However, I think the diner relies on the no-show of sleeping pax to help pay for the diner to be in the consist.
> 
> Well, that's if the accounting is done right.


Venture, as I recall from past discussions here, apparently only the charges for actual food consumed is transferred to the F&B account. But I could be remembering wrong. If that is true then all that the bundling does is puts pressure on Sleeper passengers to eat in the Diner, and the more they eat the more money is transferred to F&B.


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## Anderson (Apr 15, 2015)

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Now that's a product plan I can sink my teeth into. However, I think the diner relies on the no-show of sleeping pax to help pay for the diner to be in the consist.
> ...


From what I recall hearing at the last NARP meeting from one of Amtrak's F&B folks, this is more or less right: If you consume a $3 salad, a $2 soda, and a $25 steak then $30 will be transferred from the "sleeper" account to the "F&B" account. If you just have the steak, only $25 will be transferred.


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## SarahZ (Apr 15, 2015)

jis said:


> I always rode the Southern said:
> 
> 
> > If they really wanted to test this, go ahead and use the star, but keep the diner and have 2 sleeper fares. 1 with, 1 without. Then either advertise heavily for coach passengers to use the diner or even offer 2 coach fares; with or without food.
> ...


Bingo.  I was thinking of that exact comparison when I mentioned the room-only and room+food idea in my post.


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## Cina (Apr 15, 2015)

I've thought it would be nice to be able to get a sleeper with dinner only or lunch/dinner only included. I wouldn't mind bringing my own breakfast, and maybe even lunch. This would be difficult logistically, I'm sure.


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Again, the problem isn't storage, but rather the way too conservative loading of the cars! And with the loss of the diner on the Star, Amtrak & the commissary need to double down and then some!
> ...


It's Amtrak and its models in conjunction with the commissary that make the stocking decision. Apparently the LSA can override the norm and request extra. I'm not sure if they can do that at any time or if it requires a special circumstance; like in my case, it was a holiday weekend.

And we got really, really lucky that we had a smart, interested in customer service LSA who exercised her option to add on to the normal stocking levels and did the right thing for her customers. I know of another LSA who plies that route, or at least used to, who would never have taken that initiative and would have been happy to run out of food and just sit down and relax from Buffalo to NYP.

Finally, while I have no actual data, I rather suspect that tips are on the small side for the cafe LSA. Dining car attendants and sleeping car attendants do much, much better in the tip department than a cafe LSA.


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2015)

jis said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> > The big question in my mind is how AGR awards will be affected. They can't seriously consider charging the same number of points for both experiences.
> ...


Just to be clear, they are not changing the award levels for this test.

If this were to become the norm on all trains, then I suspect that they would have no choice but to change the reward levels. But to change things for just 1 train and for just 7 months or so is not worth the time & effort. Especially when there is an alternative train that most can use.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 15, 2015)

There's an ez fix for the AGR Award on the Star to Florida downgrade!

Charge the 15,000-20,000+ points and do a rebate of points ( maybe 10%??) to your account just like with the Chase AGR Master Card ( which is also in flux unfortunately!!)

Or have a goodwill e- voucher for AGR Award Customers who can't switch to the Meteor when its SOLD OUT like it frequently is!!

I've already expressed my opinion that I wouldn't ride the Star while the experiment was going on unless I was Paying, then like jis, I'd go for the savings and just carry my own food and drink!!!


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> There's an ez fix for the AGR Award on the Star to Florida downgrade!
> 
> Charge the 15,000-20,000+ points and do a rebate of points ( maybe 10%??) to your account just like with the Chase AGR Master Card ( which is also in flux unfortunately!!)


Still far too much work for a temporary test!



jimhudson said:


> Or have a goodwill e- voucher for AGR Award Customers who can't switch to the Meteor when its SOLD OUT like it frequently is!!


That might be viable, but I still think it unlikely to happen.


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## me_little_me (Apr 15, 2015)

willem said:


> The zone system is rather peculiar from the start. It costs the same to go from Chicago to Washington as to go from Chicago to Miami.


And is that any different than a points ticket on an airline? Same number of points for NY to Boston as SFO to Boston.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2015)

Yup. And airlines have zone system too, except that in most cases all of North America is a single zone. Other zones are Western Europe, Eastern Europe, South America, Africa, Northeast Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia, West Asia, Australia, Oceania or some such, and there is an enormous table showing miles required for each origin/destination zone pair for each class discounted or regular etc.


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2015)

AlanB said:


> It's Amtrak and its models in conjunction with the commissary that make the stocking decision. Apparently the LSA can override the norm and request extra. I'm not sure if they can do that at any time or if it requires a special circumstance; like in my case, it was a holiday weekend.
> 
> And we got really, really lucky that we had a smart, interested in customer service LSA who exercised her option to add on to the normal stocking levels and did the right thing for her customers. I know of another LSA who plies that route, or at least used to, who would never have taken that initiative and would have been happy to run out of food and just sit down and relax from Buffalo to NYP.


On the completely-full-train, extra-cars-added trip where there weren't enough salads (!!!), I encountered an LSA who said that he'd tried to override Amtrak's idiotic understocking decision, but that he hadn't been able to (perhaps not enough advance notice, to be charitable to the commissary).
There's a lot of incompetence at the upper management level when it comes to stocking the diners. Lots and lots.


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2015)

jis said:


> Before there was forced Diner feeding of Sleepers I have done cross country on Cafe food several times. It wasn't really that bad.


Well, but back then, Amtrak had much, much lower ridership. As a result *the cafe did not run out of food*.

Now it does. Routinely.

If Amtrak wants to try a "cafe-only" project seriously (as opposed to "shoot ourselves in the revenue side of the ledger"), they'll have to pony up for additional commissaries to refill the cafe car midroute. Amtrak is obviously not doing that right now.


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2015)

jis said:


> 1. (My speculation) A few Heritage Diners are coming up for major mandatory maintenance which would be a waste of money given that their expected life after the overhaul is short. So just taking them out of service save money. But with those gone there is not enough Diners to provide that service on all low level LD trains. So what to do given the delay in the delivery of VLII Diners?


Well, if this is the real reason, I guess I can't argue with it. If you don't have the rolling stock you don't have the rolling stock. If this is the case, I'd expect Amtrak to be really, really working on getting those new dining cars ASAP.

I doubt it, though. Most maintenance is a yearly thing... you'd expect all the cars to be up for roughly the same maintenance this year, so pulling four off doesn't seem like it would be likely to make much difference...


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2015)

Guest said:


> There is quite a bit of storage space in the lounge cars if utilized effectively. Not saying it is always sufficient on heavier days.


There really isn't very much storage space in the Amfleet II cafe/lounges. Nowhere near enough space for a heavily patronized cafe even on a short trip like Toronto-NY, let alone one as long as the Silver Star.
Superliner lounges have gobs more space.


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## City of Miami (Apr 15, 2015)

It seems to me the point is to reduce food and beverage costs which has been committed to. We all agree the main cost is personnel in the diner. By getting rid of the diner Amtrak saves far more than it could possibly lose by that action unless passengers simply go away as a result. And that is what will be discovered - will they or won't they?


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> This is an experiment. Maybe it will work,maybe it won't.


Frankly, no. This is not an experiment; it's sabotage, and it won't work because it's designed to be guaranteed to fail.

I could tell Amtrak how to design an experiment in food service change. Actually, people here have described several coherent possibilities which would be "experiments" (all of which would require spending some capital funding, by the way).

Just cutting dining car service and expecting people to rely on a cafe car which routinely runs out of food already... that's not an experiment, that's sabotage.



City of Miami said:


> It seems to me the point is to reduce food and beverage costs which has been committed to. We all agree the main cost is personnel in the diner. By getting rid of the diner Amtrak saves far more than it could possibly lose by that action unless passengers simply go away as a result.


Which they will. We've already got three or four in this thread alone who've said they will go away.

If this were combined with some sort of coherent "enhanced cafe" plan, then it would be an experiment and I'd be all for it. But it isn't.

Here's a really, really simple "enhanced cafe" plan: run two Amfleet II cafes (back-to-back) instead of one. Only one is staffed, but the other one is full of food. Enlarge the menu with additional selections. When a selection runs out in the "active" cafe, the cafe car attendant retrieves the adidtional food from the second cafe. This would also alleviate the typical crunch on table space in the lounge/cafe and provide more room for people to line up.


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2015)

neroden said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > There is quite a bit of storage space in the lounge cars if utilized effectively. Not saying it is always sufficient on heavier days.
> ...


Again, the Amfleet II lounges have more cold storage space since their conversion to Diner-Lite's than a Amfleet I lounge has. And if an AMF I lounge can pack enough food stuffs to last two days between NYP & TWO, then it shouldn't be that hard to pack enough for a slightly less than two day trip between NYP & Miami.

The issue isn't storage space for the NYP-TWO route, but rather the models used by Amtrak & the commissary that don't load enough food onto the cafe car for that trip. My first hand experience a few years back on a holiday weekend proved that to me.


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2015)

AlanB said:


> Again, the Amfleet II lounges have more cold storage space since their conversion to Diner-Lite's than a Amfleet I lounge has. And if an AMF I lounge can pack enough food stuffs to last two days between NYP & TWO,


...which it never has done successfully....



> then it shouldn't be that hard to pack enough for a slightly less than two day trip between NYP & Miami.


...for a longer train which routinely has more passengers...



> The issue isn't storage space for the NYP-TWO route, but rather the models used by Amtrak & the commissary that don't load enough food onto the cafe car for that trip. My first hand experience a few years back on a holiday weekend proved that to me.


We know they don't load enough food on any of the routes heading through Albany, for some reason or reasons. Could they load enough food? Well, you hypothesize without evidence that they can...
When the LSL was running a "Diner-Lite", the storage space in both the cafe and the diner seemed to be pretty much fully used. Now try to get more food (for a longer trip) into a single Amfleet II. Good luck.

I mean, perhaps due to the cutbacks, the reduced ridership on the Star will mean that less food is needed, but again, that's not an experiment, that's sabotage. The "Cross Country Cafe" was an experiment. This isn't.


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2015)

neroden said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Again, the Amfleet II lounges have more cold storage space since their conversion to Diner-Lite's than a Amfleet I lounge has. And if an AMF I lounge can pack enough food stuffs to last two days between NYP & TWO,
> ...


No, I have evidence. Whether or not you choose to believe me I don't care.

But I have taken the Maple Leaf many times over the years and always have seen it run out of food by Syracuse, even back when the commissary was still open in Albany. That is until the trip I took on Labor Day weekend where the LSA ordered extra and had enough food to last through Albany.

The storage capacity is there to do better! The problem is what they load onto the train. And again, one of the things added to the Amfleet II cafe cars when they were converted to Diner-Lite cars was more cold storage capacity. It was needed in order to handle the extra pre-plated meals for sleeping car passengers. The AMF II cafes have more storage capacity than the AMF I cafes do. I'm not saying that's enough to cover the lack of a diner, that remains to be seen, but the fact that the cafe currently runs out of food on a Silver train is a function of what is loaded onto the train and NOT a lack of capacity to keep things cold.

By the way, the Star has less capacity for passengers than the Maple Leaf, as the Star's sleepers greatly reduce the capacity as compared to coach capacity.


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2015)

You have evidence that they run out, and that they could stock more than they usually. You don't have evidence that they are actually capable of stocking enough food to get all the way from New York to Toronto to New York, because this seems to never, ever happen even when extra food is ordered.



> I'm not saying that's enough to cover the lack of a diner, that remains to be seen, but the fact that the cafe currently runs out of food on a Silver train is a function of what is loaded onto the train and NOT a lack of capacity to keep things cold.


So gross mismanagement is a core problem. There may also be an equipment / storage space problem, but it's hard to tell when management won't even use the available space. 

Anyway, Fred Frailey just weighed in, and basically said what I'm thinking. This could be done as a sensible experiment, but it looks like Amtrak has instead designed it to fail.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2015/04/13/food-service-on-amtrak-ouch.aspx

The Silver Star has a lot of short-haul ridership. It may make logical sense to not have a dining car, and to instead serve everything out of the cafe. But by the same token, with all that short-haul ridership, the cafe service needs to be beefed up. And it looks like Amtrak just won't do it.


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## cuppb001 (Apr 15, 2015)

Every Amfleet II Café I have seen has a tall standing Traulsen fridge next to the menu. Never once have I seen an attendant access this unit. It remains padlocked.

My feelings on the removal of the diner. Again just my feelings. I have traveled on the Star frequently where by the time I boarded the train to the time I exited the diner was closed. The train travelled though the night so it would not have made sense to pay $250+ for a sleeper and I knew that I would not benefit from any meals. eg. Star: JAX-CYN. With a reduced sleeper fare in that trip I would likely opt for a bed and shower instead of coaching it. I do realize though for passengers travelling end point to end point that this could be a deal breaker but hasn't Amtrak published in the past that very few of its riders take a train endpoint to endpoint?

When storms hit fairly hard up north Amtrak ran the Star truncated in JAX-MIA only. This train operated with only a café car and coaches. For a Florida only train ridership was strong and I only traveled between JAX and TPA and back on that trip. Both trips I had a seat mate and walking through the train to the Café revealed I was not the only one in that situation. I know all this proves is that intrastate Florida travel is popular and needed but that's another discussion all together.


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## Anderson (Apr 16, 2015)

The share of overall travelers traveling from "pure" endpoint to endpoint is admittedly relatively small; however, on the Silvers in particular there is a huge amount of travel between "somewhere north of ALX" to "somewhere south of JAX"; these numbers are, I believe, a pretty good share of both trains' ridership...and more importantly, a rather large portion of the riders on either train at any given time. The SB Meteor, in particular, will often have about two coaches (and a majority of the occupied sleepers; I've sometimes seen the WPB/FLL/MIA/ORL-bound pax spill in to a third coach as well) full of Florida-bound pax when departing WAS/ALX.


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## AlanB (Apr 16, 2015)

neroden said:


> You have evidence that they run out, and that they could stock more than they usually. You don't have evidence that they are actually capable of stocking enough food to get all the way from New York to Toronto to New York, because this seems to never, ever happen even when extra food is ordered.


No sir, I have evidence that it was capable of stocking enough food to do the round trip. Yes, she ran out of some things before our arrival back into NYP. But she didn't run out of food entirely. I wasn't forced to buy a breakfast sandwich for dinner like I had to do on a few occasions in the past.

And my attendant was making an educated guess on her own without help from computers and past data points on just how much to over order the normal load on. She probably could have ordered a few more of the most popular items such that she basically didn't run out until the last minute. And frankly you don't want to have much left over anyhow if you can help it. Running out of certain items by Poughkeepsie on the return trip is acceptable. Running out of certain items by the time the train reaches Buffalo on the return is NOT acceptable. Nor is running out of all lunch/dinner items by the time the train reaches Albany acceptable.

And again, I'll remind you that they have to be mindful of the fact that they must hit Niagara Falls with 1 fridge and 1 freezer empty. And I'll remind you again that the storage capacity of a Diner-Lite car is greater than the storage capacity of a Club-Dinette.

Finally, let me be clear. I'm not happy with this decision by Amtrak to drop the diner. I do NOT support it! I'm simply saying that storage capacity is far greater in these cafe cars than people seem to think. The bigger issue is properly stocking the cars to handle the load; not a lack of cold storage! Again, I don't and won't guarantee that they might not run out of food by the time a southbound train hits West Palm Beach. But there is no reason for the cafe to run out of food by Savannah, other than improperly stocking the cafe car at Sunnyside and failure to fix the issue in DC.


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## VentureForth (Apr 16, 2015)

Can someone do a quick cost analysis on what the revenue for a full sleeper needs to be to match the revenue of a full coach? First - a capacity vs rate comparison.

Then how much more is needed for amenities, consumables, crew and laundry - not including dining allowance?

What if every roomette only has one passenger and coach is full? The accommodation charge isn't less, but you lose the rail fare.

For example, the MOST a sleeper can carry is 28 passengers. This is vs 58? in coach. So, the minimum would be for each sleeper fare to be double the coach rate. But it's most likely that the 12 roomettes have one person each and the bedrooms have two, so lets say that you can "sell out" a sleeper with only 18 passengers. That would require about 3x the revenue of coach.

Can one SCA take care of two Viewliners? I believe the minimum coach attendants now for LD trains is one for every two cars...

...a work in progress.

So, some assumptions: the following assumes revenue for a sold out coach and sleeper with every passenger riding from MIA to NYP. Buckets are not considered.

On June 30th, the cost for a single coach traveller from MIA to NYP is $144. A Roomette is $462. A Bedroom is $706. A 2nd passenger adds $144 to any selection.

On July 1st, the cost for a single coach traveller from MIA to NYP is $144. A Roomette is $340. A Bedroom is $566. A 2nd passenger adds $144 to any selection.

So, real quick, a sell out coach would bring in $8,352. Before the change, a sellout in a sleeper with 2 in every room could bring in $9,578. But if the minimum of one per room was in the sellout, the revenue would be worse than coach at $7,418. So the line is close with a full sellout. That $1,226 has to pay for 5 meals for 28 people. Let's just average $20 per person per meal and the diner gets $2800. And we haven't even taken the cost of coffee, juice, newspapers, and laundry into consideration.

But the tragedy is that even in the best sellout conditions with the new trial, the BEST a sleeper can take in for revenue is $7,712 - $640 less than a sold out coach.

Now, take away my assumptions and realize real world, the turn over for seats in coach is much greater than turn over in a sleeper. In other words, one seat between MIA and NYP may collect revenue from 2 to 4 unique individuals, whereas a sleeper may only get one or two.

I'm not up to the task of the calculus and algorhythms to maximize, but on the surface, it looks like the sleepers are a losing proposition WITHOUT the diners and should probably cost about double what they do now WITHOUT food.


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## rrdude (Apr 16, 2015)

AlanB said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Alan is spot-on: It takes a caring LSA, one who has "Hospitality" on their mind-set, to order more stock. Why? More stock means more loading and setting up display, and if you do it right, more "organizing" stock, so the surplus doesn't take up seat/table space. It means more counting at the end, and it means more accountability for the LSA.

However, that "Hospitality minded" LSA also "gets" that it probably means more happy pax, and more happy pax, _*usually*_ means more TIPS! Worked for me back in the day. I was *constantly* harraunged by my supervisors for ordering extra on the Michigan and Illinois trains, but I KNEW when a weekend football game, or long weekend (student) would crush the normal PAR for the trip.

Most of the supervisors didn't care that I doubled or even more, the "average sales" on that route/day. because THEY had to notate that the PAR was upped, and for WHAT reason.... God I got into some awful arguments. Some were such dicks they wouldn't even help me count or offload. A few, I'll grant them that, applauded my effort, but still felt the need to comment that it "required more paperwork".

I tell ya though, run out of beer ONCE, less than an hour out of Chicago, with several hours to go, and a line in the cafe or worse, "Panic Box" that goes into the next car, or up the stairs, and you will ALWAYS check the calendar for universities, sports, car shows, etc., ANYthing that people would ride a train to get to.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 16, 2015)

I know a good LSA who works the same line will quickly learn what sells and what does not sell and heopefully he or she is able to fine tune the Stock Order to adjust for this, going heavy on popular sellers and light on stuff that does not sell. That way they can make more efficient use of the storage facilities they currently have, keep pax happy by having enough popular items on hand, keep more money coming into Amtrak's Kitty and perhaps most important in the LSA's Point of View, keep the Tip Jar full.

I would hope as a whole Amtrak keeps records of this and can break them down by route, time of week, time of year, etc and calculate suggested stock loads from there.


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## jis (Apr 16, 2015)

Amtrak middle and line management's take home needs to be more connected with financial performance of what they manage. All large companies have a core segment and a performance segment in their salary calculation. Amtrak needs to get upt o speed with such. We are talking management here, so no union issues as far as I understand.

I have always suspected that just like it is fashionable among the incompetent to blame their computer, similarly one can blame storage space and such other silliness when a little bit of planning will get you around many of such popular excuses.

BTW, on this issue I trust AlanB more than anyone else on the board, since he has been at analyzing this way longer than most here.


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## Ryan (Apr 16, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I would hope as a whole Amtrak keeps records of this and can break them down by route, time of week, time of year, etc and calculate suggested stock loads from there.


If not, hopefully the POS rollout will allow them to more easily capture this data and act on it.


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## jis (Apr 16, 2015)

If the primary goal of the F&B system is to minimize spoilage to the exclusion of everything else then no matter what data they have this problem will not get solved. The primary goal has got to be to have food available for the customer when they want it. The spoilage thing then just becomes a balancing issue in balanced scorecard. You do not clubber your primary goal completely to meet a secondary tactical goal. Well, at least in the normal intelligent management world you don't.


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## KmH (Apr 16, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> I believe the minimum coach attendants now for LD trains is one for every two cars...


According to page 6-74 of the Amtrak Service Standards Manual (Version 8) attendant staffing for coach cars is keyed to passenger count rather than to car count.

A single Train Attendant - Coach could be required to tend to up to 4 coach cars as long as the number of passengers doesn't exceed a coach passenger count of 150 for at least four (4) hours of daylight travel.

Once the number of passengers does exceed a coach passenger count of 150 for at least four (4) hours of daylight travel, a second Train Attendant - Coach is added to the crew and the 2 Train Attendant-Coach crew could be required to care for up to 6 coach cars as long as the passenger count is 300 or less for at least four (4) hours of daylight travel.

A 3rd attendant is added when the passenger count exceeds 300, and a 4th attendant is added when the passenger count reaches 376 for at

least four (4) hours of daylight travel.


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## cirdan (Apr 16, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> Can someone do a quick cost analysis on what the revenue for a full sleeper needs to be to match the revenue of a full coach? First - a capacity vs rate comparison.
> 
> Then how much more is needed for amenities, consumables, crew and laundry - not including dining allowance?
> 
> ...


I think you're assuming that if you abolished sleepers, that all those passengers would book coach instead and in doing so would generate more returns for Amtrak. They would pay less, sure, but they would also cause less costs and Amtrak would be better off for it.

In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.

It is much the same argument, is Amtrak sacrificing revenue by attaching private varnish to trains or working with the likes of Iowa Pacific. Without doubt, some of the people riding to New Orleans on Iowa Pacific might otherwise be Amtrak sleeper passengers. Should Amtrak cancel their contract with Iowa Pacific because of this? I think not.

I do agree that something needs to be done with the pricing. So for example if you book a roomette for single occupancy, the fare should be something like the same for the same roomette with double occupancy minus meal costs of the second passenger. If Amtrak is selling notably under that price, that needs looking into.


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## Ryan (Apr 16, 2015)

cirdan said:


> In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.


Absolutely - if I can't have a sleeper for an overnight journey, I'm stuffing myself in a plane and either getting a hotel or leaving the next morning.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Apr 16, 2015)

If done right this could be a great concept. Americans love fast casual dining. A cafe with a beefed up menu that offers much more than hot dogs,hamburgers and pizza could be a huge success. The new viewliner diners could fill this role perfectly. A cafe counter equipped with much more than a microwave could replace the kitchen and would require only 1-2 crew members. With lower sleeper fares and improved food options that aren't in the $15-20 range could drastically increase sleeper and food sales. This could make the long distance trains much healthier.


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## gabbygrrl (Apr 16, 2015)

I think I'm in the right topic for this comment: I called today to book the Silver Star from FTL to BOS in November. I requested a roomette for 2 adults. I was told that after July 1 of this year, food was no longer included in the cost of the roomette for the Silver train 92. She said they were testing it to determine if the move was going to be permanent. She said they will no longer be hauling a dining car, only a snack car, and all purchases would be at an extra cost.

Mind you, the fare has not dropped for the route. She also said it will also apply to the Silver Star on the Southbound route. I asked her to switch me over to the Silver Meteor and verified that meals are still included on that train. She said yes, and until the "experiment" with the Star is over, nothing else is expected to change.

She did throw in that she has received many cancellations from Star passengers due to the meals being removed from service. I presume they switched to other options as opposed to traveling in coach. As someone else mentioned, it's a different demographic and the sleeper passengers may rather drive than sit in coach...or that's just me  )

(I apologize if someone has already posted this info)


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## VentureForth (Apr 16, 2015)

RyanS said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.
> ...


I guess that is what this "experiment" is supposed to answer.



Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> If done right this could be a great concept. Americans love fast casual dining. A cafe with a beefed up menu that offers much more than hot dogs,hamburgers and pizza could be a huge success. The new viewliner diners could fill this role perfectly. A cafe counter equipped with much more than a microwave could replace the kitchen and would require only 1-2 crew members. With lower sleeper fares and improved food options that aren't in the $15-20 range could drastically increase sleeper and food sales. This could make the long distance trains much healthier.


Unfortunately, they aren't doing that. Same ol' café car. Same ol' menu. Same ol' long lines. If they threw in a Diner Lite or a Cross Country Café, that would be a different story all together. However, I don't see that happening with single level equipment any time soon. I wonder if it's too late to perhaps mod 3 of the VLD's into a VLCCC or VLDL.



gabbygrrl said:


> Mind you, the fare has not dropped for the route. She also said it will also apply to the Silver Star on the Southbound route. I asked her to switch me over to the Silver Meteor and verified that meals are still included on that train. She said yes, and until the "experiment" with the Star is over, nothing else is expected to change.


The fare was _*supposed*_ to drop. I cannot imagine the Star (slower) being the same price (with or without food) as the Meteor. Almost Ever (holidays and other sell out periods excepted). In my example above, the savings should be at least $120 to $140, except that adding more distance would likely increase the sleeper fare at a higher rate than the rail fare.


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## niemi24s (Apr 16, 2015)

A quick check of fares for 1 adult from NYP to MIA (and MIA to NYP) on 20 Oct 2015 shows (for coach & roomette): Star $144 & $310; Meteor $144 & $433 for a $123 drop for the Star. 20 Oct was the only date checked.

I think somebody should make daily checks starting now for the 1 July 2015 to 31 Jan 2016 period to see when the Star roomette fare is _more_ than that for the Meteor (on the same date)! Impossible? I don't think so.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 16, 2015)

gabbygrrl said:


> Mind you, the fare has not dropped for the route.


Can you be more specific about this? I know two people were already booked on the SS before the changes were made and they got eVouchers for the difference in price.


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## VentureForth (Apr 16, 2015)

For a random Monday in November, I see a difference in price from FTL to BOS of a measly $109 for one. That savings is split if two are traveling in the same room. And that's for 5 hours more on the train.

On the last Monday before the trial period, the savings of the Star over the Meteor is $15. So the net difference for lack of food is $94.

On the complete other hand, I don't think I'd like to leave my sleeper and change trains in WAS to an overnight coach train, whereas on the Meteor you can change at NYP.


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## Palmetto (Apr 16, 2015)

FWIW, I used a voucher today for a 9/26 MIA-BOS trip; Sleeper in the Meteor to NY; regular coach NY-Bos. Fare: $411.00. Interestesingly, I'm in car 9811. I'm wondering if the roomettes in the 9810 car are already gone. I did ask for a room in the middle of the car, so this may have moved me back to the 11 car.


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## Anderson (Apr 16, 2015)

Palmetto said:


> FWIW, I used a voucher today for a 9/26 MIA-BOS trip; Sleeper in the Meteor to NY; regular coach NY-Bos. Fare: $411.00. Interestesingly, I'm in car 9811. I'm wondering if the roomettes in the 9810 car are already gone. I did ask for a room in the middle of the car, so this may have moved me back to the 11 car.


I think the computer tries to spread pax evenly between the planned sleepers for a train (if only so you don't end up with one SCA who is swamped and another with no passengers).


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## AlanB (Apr 16, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> > FWIW, I used a voucher today for a 9/26 MIA-BOS trip; Sleeper in the Meteor to NY; regular coach NY-Bos. Fare: $411.00. Interestesingly, I'm in car 9811. I'm wondering if the roomettes in the 9810 car are already gone. I did ask for a room in the middle of the car, so this may have moved me back to the 11 car.
> ...


Correct, the computer tries its best to load balance the sleeping cars on any given train. Groups and special requests can & do unbalance things somewhat; but even then the computer will try to bring things back into balance as quickly as possible.


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## Anderson (Apr 16, 2015)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> If done right this could be a great concept. Americans love fast casual dining. A cafe with a beefed up menu that offers much more than hot dogs,hamburgers and pizza could be a huge success. The new viewliner diners could fill this role perfectly. A cafe counter equipped with much more than a microwave could replace the kitchen and would require only 1-2 crew members. With lower sleeper fares and improved food options that aren't in the $15-20 range could drastically increase sleeper and food sales. This could make the long distance trains much healthier.


This wasn't too far off from the diner-club idea Amtrak had (basically, drop the cafe and only have a diner...but keep it open with a somewhat more limited menu all day). One issue is that while the cafe operates for most of 17-18 hours per day, the diner is basically open for only 9-10 hours...so about half of the day is "dead time" for the car.


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## jis (Apr 16, 2015)

There is something to be learned from Alaska Rail Road. In the off season trains they have a single food service car which serves both as the sit down meal Diner and the occasional food purchase Cafe car throughout the journey.


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## I always rode the Southern (Apr 16, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> A quick check of fares for 1 adult from NYP to MIA (and MIA to NYP) on 20 Oct 2015 shows (for coach & roomette): Star $144 & $310; Meteor $144 & $433 for a $123 drop for the Star. 20 Oct was the only date checked.
> 
> I think somebody should make daily checks starting now for the 1 July 2015 to 31 Jan 2016 period to see when the Star roomette fare is _more_ than that for the Meteor (on the same date)! Impossible? I don't think so.


Since my journey from Tampa almost always ends in WAS, I am almost always given both options, Star or Meteor, unless one is SO. So I always see prices for both to compare, and I can tell you that the star has almost without exception, had lower sleeper fares than the meteor. I can't prove it to you because I never took screenshots for such a situation as today; but I know what I know as I've been taking these trains for years. And I would always bit** to myself when I was forced to take the meteor when I was going straight to Pgh rather than stay overnight in WAS to visit my son.

So the fact that there is a difference in sleeper prices on future dates doesn't convince me of anything. Show me what the difference in price was on a date 3,6, 9 months or a year ago and I may concede there is a significant difference. But that still doesn't address the equally important issue of the lack of any quality, healthy food in the cafe car worth waiting in a very long line for..

.


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## jis (Apr 16, 2015)

Amtrak's press release said that bucket for bucket the price difference is of the order of $65 for roomette. The bigger differences we are seeing is because the Meteor typically sits at a higher bucket most of the time than the Star.


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## niemi24s (Apr 16, 2015)

I always rode the Southern said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> > A quick check of fares for 1 adult from NYP to MIA (and MIA to NYP) on 20 Oct 2015 shows (for coach & roomette): Star $144 & $310; Meteor $144 & $433 for a $123 drop for the Star. 20 Oct was the only date checked.
> ...


Sorry, didn't think I was trying to convince anybody of anything. Just stating some factual information about fare differences in the first paragraph and letting my mind wander in the second.

And my mind wandered again after supper and led me to sniff out roomette fares between NYP and MIA for both the Meteor and Star for every date from 1 July 2015 through 31 Jan 2016, inclusive. Star roomettes fluctuated between $310 and $375 while those on the Meteor went from $433 to $722. The lowest difference during that period was $93, the most common was appeared to be $123 and the highest was $382. Roomettes on the Star were always the lesser of the two. Then on 1 Feb 2016 both were $375. Just facts. Nothing more. They're worth just what you paid for them.


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## I always rode the Southern (Apr 16, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> I always rode the Southern said:
> 
> 
> > niemi24s said:
> ...


No need to be sorry, I am. Didn't mean to imply it was you or anyone on the forum trying to convince me, rather that amtrak was not going to convince me that they were gonna give me such a great deal by taking the diner away.


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## cirdan (Apr 17, 2015)

I hope the fact that there is no full dining service is being communicated well during booking, not that Amtrak ends up with dozens of frustrated and angry passengers on every train.

This is always going to be a problem when two trains of the class on the same route offer different facilities.


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## The Davy Crockett (Apr 17, 2015)

Could Amtrak be trying to use this 'test' - brought on by a lack of enough serviceable diners - to create angry passengers, which Amtrak can then use as ammunition at Congressional budget hearings on Amtrak's _"wasteful spending" _in the dining car?

Another thought: Its humorous that the train which is being used in this 'test' is one that goes through Rep. Mica's district. Just a coincidence? :unsure: 

Just maybe Amtrak is hoping Mica will hear from his constituents about how unhappy they are with this new 'test' service (Which ironically takes the Star in more of a socialistic/communistic 'People's Train' direction   ) compared to either the Meteor or the Auto Train? :giggle:


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## neroden (Apr 17, 2015)

jis said:


> If the primary goal of the F&B system is to minimize spoilage to the exclusion of everything else then no matter what data they have this problem will not get solved.


Yeah, they could just carry no food -- no spoilage. 



> The primary goal has got to be to have food available for the customer when they want it. The spoilage thing then just becomes a balancing issue in balanced scorecard. You do not clubber your primary goal completely to meet a secondary tactical goal. Well, at least in the normal intelligent management world you don't.


Yeah. There seems to be something seriously wrong in F&B management at Amtrak. Grossly wrong.



VentureForth said:


> Can someone do a quick cost analysis on what the revenue for a full sleeper needs to be to match the revenue of a full coach? First - a capacity vs rate comparison.


Paulus tried to do this a while back. On the numbers from a couple of year ago, sleepers are significantly more profitable than coaches on the Lake Shore Limited, slightly behind on the Cardinal, somewhat more behind on the Meteor and Crescent, and most behind on the Star.

Some routes command higher sleeper premiums than others. This might have implications for where to allocate sleeper cars (more to the LSL, fewer to the Star), and potential implications for how large a sleeper car order ought to be. But it doesn't really have implications for the existence of the cars on specific routes because of what Cirdan said...



cirdan said:


> I think you're assuming that if you abolished sleepers, that all those passengers would book coach instead and in doing so would generate more returns for Amtrak. They would pay less, sure, but they would also cause less costs and Amtrak would be better off for it.
> 
> In reality, I think this is not how it works. Many sleeper passengers would probably not go in coach, at least not for longer journeys. Its a different demographic. So by abolishing sleepers you would be saying bye bye to those passengers.


I don't know whether a sleeper on #66/67 would be more or less profitable than a coach on #66/67, but I do know it would attract a different market who isn't currently riding the train. And I don't think you can fill *more* coaches on #66/67. So if adding a sleeper there can be incrementally profitable, there should be one. That's the principle.


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## AlanB (Apr 17, 2015)

cirdan said:


> I hope the fact that there is no full dining service is being communicated well during booking, not that Amtrak ends up with dozens of frustrated and angry passengers on every train.


I'm certain that its not being properly communicated during booking. Most phone agents are probably doing so; but I'm sure that a few are not. And if one books online, unless one clicks the little red triangle next to the train's name, one will never know that there have been changes. Unless of course one Google's up sites like this one.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 17, 2015)

AlanB said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > I hope the fact that there is no full dining service is being communicated well during booking, not that Amtrak ends up with dozens of frustrated and angry passengers on every train.
> ...


I agree. Though, when I booked my AGR southbound on the SM and the agent asked about a return train, I mentioned I was taking the SS and she told me about the lack of the diner on the SS. Of course, I told her I was already aware of that, but that was nice of her to let me know (in case I had not clicked on the triangle).


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## I always rode the Southern (Apr 17, 2015)

The Davy Crockett said:


> Could Amtrak be trying to use this 'test' - brought on by a lack of enough serviceable diners - to create angry passengers, which Amtrak can then use as ammunition at Congressional budget hearings on Amtrak's _"wasteful spending" _in the dining car?
> 
> Another thought: Its humorous that the train which is being used in this 'test' is one that goes through Rep. Mica's district. Just a coincidence? :unsure:
> 
> Just maybe Amtrak is hoping Mica will hear from his constituents about how unhappy they are with this new 'test' service (Which ironically takes the Star in more of a socialistic/communistic 'People's Train' direction   ) compared to either the Meteor or the Auto Train? :giggle:


Those of us from the Tampa Bay area, which isn't in Mica's district, are the one's most affected by this. A huge number of people board/detrain the star in Tampa. Not so many in Mica's district. Beside's this is Florida, elected scott twice, so this will be sold as Pres. Obama's fault. :huh:


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## cirdan (Apr 17, 2015)

I always rode the Southern said:


> Those of us from the Tampa Bay area, which isn't in Mica's district, are the one's most affected by this. A huge number of people board/detrain the star in Tampa. Not so many in Mica's district. Beside's this is Florida, elected scott twice, so this will be sold as Pres. Obama's fault. :huh:


...  but if they say it's Obama's fault, that is implying that if they were in power, they would do better.

That sort of "promise" can come back to bite them.


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## Paulus (Apr 18, 2015)

Just a few thoughts:

1) F&B line on the Silver Star will, of course, see a significant drop in revenue from the lack of sleeper transfers, but expenses should drop more due to significantly fewer crew.

2) Sleeper line revenue will increase significantly (though this may not be apparent in the monthly performance reports). There's no actual reduction to the sleeper accommodation revenue since the cuts are basically what would've been transferred anyhow while the lower fares should help increase occupancy and turnover (from those using it as a super business class for instance). Additionally, there should be 4-5 roomettes per train previously used for diner crew that are now available to be sold. That's probably about $150,000 over the course of the trial (including the effects of discounts).

3) For all the complaining, it's clear from NARP's ridership statistics that a supermajority of those traveling any given segment, including the full length of the Silver Star, are coach riders and they are likely already relying on the café car for their meals. For most existing passengers there will be no noticeable downgrade of service but only a more affordable and accessible upgrade possibility.


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## Rail Freak (Apr 18, 2015)

(Adding to Paulus) ... and creating more demand for sleepers on the Meteor. More Demand = Higher Fares = Higher Revenue!!!


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## neroden (Apr 18, 2015)

The real question is how many riders will simply disappear. Probably the majority of the Tampa-NEC market will vanish (coach & sleeper) and that's about 11400 passengers per years, so call it a loss of 5700 passengers per year. It should be a significantly larger drop in revenue.

We won't see all of the drop in the first year, due to once-a-year travellers who will cancel *next year's* trip. So you can't tell how much damage is done until September 2016.

Non-Tampa long-distance riders will simply switch to the Meteor, so we should see some revenue shifts there.

The loss of riders could be largely alleviated, perhaps even totally eliminated, if the cafe car is managed properly and doesn't run out of anything. Unfortunately, given Amtrak's past record on cafe car management, I expect the cafe car to be routinely running out of food hundreds of miles before Tampa southbound, and probably before DC northbound. This is why I describe this as "designed to fail".

Paulus, you keep forgetting that coach passengers do use the dining car. Less so over the years as Amtrak gets stupider and stupider about mismanagement of the dining cars, but they do, and frankly the dining car should be designed to be attractive to them.

We've been through this before. It was a revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1990s. It was a worse revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1980s. It will be just as much of a disaster this time. And frankly I think Amtrak intends it to be a disaster, because if they were making a serious attempt, they'd do something different.

I'm all for a real attempt at a different food service model, but that would involve something other than the same old undersupplied cafe. And Amtrak has made it very clear that that's not what's happening.

----

It's interesting to note that Tampa was losing ridership in 2013 and 2014 already -- 2012 was the peak. Same with Lakeland. Orlando and Miami peaked back in 2011. I think people have been attributing this to the SunRail disruptions, mostly?


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 18, 2015)

Of course the whole diner off the Star is designed to fail. Just like every other food service effort ordered by Congress has failed. Eventually Mica and his fellow House Republicans will get it their heads that they shouldn't micromanage Amtrak. ON second thought, that will never happen, but in a year or two the diner (one of the new CAF-built ones) will back on the Star and everybody here can just relax.

By the way, I don't think the Tampa market will disappear because of a change in food services. People who want to ride the train will continue to do so. Everybody else will fly or drive. There's a certain audience for LD train travel and it will hold. It just won't get much bigger despite the hopes of many AUers.


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## Rail Freak (Apr 18, 2015)

I really dont have the knowledge/experience to make a case, one way or another. But my home station is STP (St Pete) & I've taken that damn bus to Orlando too many times ( I-4 is a Mad-House)! I'm in the "No Sleeper Diner, No Ride Group! We can discuss this "Til The Cows Come Home" but the decision is up to Boardman & Crew. I wish them the best


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## ABQFloridian (Apr 18, 2015)

Paulus said:


> For all the complaining, it's clear from NARP's ridership statistics that a supermajority of those traveling any given segment, including the full length of the Silver Star, are coach riders and they are likely already relying on the café car for their meals. For most existing passengers there will be no noticeable downgrade of service but only a more affordable and accessible upgrade possibility.


Does the NARP have datat suggesting that coach passengers don't use the diner? When I ride coach, I always eat at least one meal in the diner. It is one of the biggest draws for me, being able to have a decent meal on the way.

I have talked to other coach passengers who say they won't eat in the diner, but they mostly won't eat in the cafe either, because they find both to be overpriced, and particularly so in light if the quality of selections.

I just find it hard to accept that coach ridership won't be affected. Without meals available, I would see planes or busses becoming a more attractive option for short/long hauls respectively for some coach passengers.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 18, 2015)

I was waiting on someone to suggest combing the Meteor and Star and running a longer train to MIA like in the golden days of passenger rail!

Thruway buses could do the ORL-TPA route like they do now for the Meteor and the combined train could have up to say 6 Sleepers and Coaches with Two Diners and two Cafe/Lounges ( one unstaffed) like the Auto- Train used to

Have.

Supply and demand would determine the consist and staffing like the model Amtrak seems to be slowly adopting!

Hopefully our Floridian friends and those who ride the Silver Trains, especially the Star won't flame me!


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## Ryan (Apr 18, 2015)

What would you do through the Carolinas where they use different routes and serve difference cities?


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 18, 2015)

RyanS said:


> What would you do through the Carolinas where they use different routes and serve difference cities?


Good point Ryan, I' m always asleep on the Silvers and usually don't wake up to Savanah on the Southbounds! 
Perhaps the combined train could run the Meteor Route if Amtrak didn't want to run an All Coach Star to Tampa on an opposite schedule!

And of course that would mess up Point runs for our Floridian AUers, and turns in Orlando like the Mini- Gathering a few years ago by some East Coast foamers!


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## ABQFloridian (Apr 18, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Thruway buses could do the ORL-TPA route like they do now for the Meteor and the combined train could have up to say 6 Sleepers and Coaches with Two Diners and two Cafe/Lounges ( one unstaffed) like the Auto- Train used to
> 
> Have.
> 
> ...


I would be almost fine with this, however there are 2 and a half million people in the Tampa Bay metropolitan area, plus a couple hundred thousand around Lakeland. Leaving those markets with only thruway is a huge mistake.

That said, I would find such service adequate if it were to follow the Star's route through Florida, turning around in Tampa. This would only add a couple hours to the schedule, which is no big deal because most passengers aren't going to an endpoint anyway, and besides, TPA, with one train, handles more passengers than MIA, with two trains.


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## jis (Apr 18, 2015)

Why would anyone want to halve the intra-Florida service choice in their right mind completely beats me. But whatever....


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## ABQFloridian (Apr 18, 2015)

jis said:


> Why would anyone want to halve the intra-Florida service choice in their right mind completely beats me. But whatever....


Absolutely. They really need more service, particularly daily service through the panhandle (Sunset East) and something like the 1994 Silver Palm that followed the Seabord line (Gainesville/Ocala, like I-75) and stopped in Tampa.

Then, at least you'd be able to get around FL.

My point is just that if you were going to cut, you would really be foolish to cut Tampa out entirely.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 18, 2015)

jis said:


> Why would anyone want to halve the intra-Florida service choice in their right mind completely beats me. But whatever....


Mea culpa! As Rosanadana ( Gilda Radner) used to say on SNL: " Never mind!"


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## jis (Apr 18, 2015)

Replacing two distinct trains by one removes schedule choice and is usually a bs idea.


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## Paulus (Apr 18, 2015)

neroden said:


> Paulus, you keep forgetting that coach passengers do use the dining car. Less so over the years as Amtrak gets stupider and stupider about mismanagement of the dining cars, but they do, and frankly the dining car should be designed to be attractive to them.
> 
> We've been through this before. It was a revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1990s. It was a worse revenue and ridership disaster when it was tried on a large scale in the 1980s. It will be just as much of a disaster this time. And frankly I think Amtrak intends it to be a disaster, because if they were making a serious attempt, they'd do something different.


Some use the diner, but to be frank, it can't be overly many of them and the data that we do have suggests that those that do don't spend very much. Seriously, here's how it boils down: For every sleeper passenger riding 1400+ miles on the Star, there are 3.5 coach passengers making that same trip. Or, if you could fill a Viewliner with those sleepers, you could fill 1.8 Amfleets with their coach counterparts. I don't think I'm mistaken in suggesting that the current diner makeup doesn't represent the actual train makeup for similar length trips, even discounting the shorter length coach trips.


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## Ryan (Apr 18, 2015)

jis said:


> Replacing two distinct trains by one removes schedule choice and is usually a bs idea.


Generally speaking, "less" is not the right answer. More frequencies, more choices, more redundancy. The overhead is all there, spread it out among more trains and we'll be in much better shape.


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## Train2104 (Apr 18, 2015)

Mileage chart


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## Anderson (Apr 18, 2015)

Honestly, even if you decided to "drop" Tampa (and I can see cases both ways on this front; see below), various points about schedule flexibility and the like speak in favor of running 2-3 trains to Florida. If nothing else, there's sweeping up cities in the Carolinas with trains (i.e. you can't really cover RGH and CHS with the same train) going both north and south.

With that said, I have to wonder about the possibility of simply splitting off a "stub" service to run ORL-TPA. Of course, if I was going to do that what I would want to do is run a DMU-based service between the cities aimed at serving commuters and simply arrange to run a through sleeper (or two) and coach (or two) through from each train. In essence you'd slap the Amtrak equipment on the back of the next SunRail train to Tampa, with some sort of allowable cross-platform transfer permitted to/from the Miami-bound trains somewhere between the two cities.


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## Paulus (Apr 19, 2015)

Excel file breaking down Silver Star ridership by class and distance from NARP data.

Posted this in the wrong thread earlier.


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## Anderson (Apr 19, 2015)

Just doing some analysis on the Star's sleeper traffic:
-There is a noticeable spike in the number of sleeper pax at 200-299 miles and in the 500-599, 600-699, and 700-799 mile ranges that isn't entirely expected. Numbers then rise again towards the high end (900-999 rises, and you get a large number over 1100 miles). There's a gap at 1300-1399 that I believe is likely an error (especially since the percentages fall way short of 100%).
--"Over 1100" basically means "Virginia and North to Central/Southern Florida": NYP-DLD is 1128 miles (making DLD the northernmost station that can be reached on a trip of 1100 miles or more) while PTB-MIA is 1118 miles (making PTB the southernmost station that such a trip can be initiated on).
--900-999 covers two blocks of relevant city pairs. One is RGH-South Florida while the other is BAL/WAS/ALX-Central Florida.
--500-799 covers a batch of interesting city pairs. Notably, NYP-RGH shows up here (not surprising; you probably have a decent straight turnover of NYP-RGH and RGH-Florida space uses). It also includes WAS-JAX, NEC-Columbia, RGH-Central Florida, and Columbia-Florida.
--Probably the most interesting spike is in the 200-299 mile range. NYP-ALX pops up here (I know there's at least some of this going on; I've spoken with one person doing it and I know my room in Richmond has been available only after being turned over on one or two occasions). More importantly, this section also includes Tampa to everywhere south of Delray Beach...which means that Amtrak is likely working to aggressively turn spaces over at TPA. This makes additional sense in the context of the heavy TPA-South Florida traffic and Amtrak's likely efforts to turn space over.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Just doing some analysis on the Star's sleeper traffic:
> 
> --Probably the most interesting spike is in the 200-299 mile range. NYP-ALX pops up here (I know there's at least some of this going on; I've spoken with one person doing it and I know my room in Richmond has been available only after being turned over on one or two occasions). More importantly, this section also includes Tampa to everywhere south of Delray Beach...which means that Amtrak is likely working to aggressively turn spaces over at TPA. This makes additional sense in the context of the heavy TPA-South Florida traffic and Amtrak's likely efforts to turn space over.


There is minimal sleeper traffic boarding in Tampa for points south. I've yet to see any upsell attempts on day of departure or other signs of Amtrak trying to fill the space. Kind of a pet peeve of mine, actually. Few people will pay railfare plus $121 for a room - the lowest accommodation charge from Tampa to all points south. Maybe it will be an easier sell with the lower $87 charge post July 1, but then you can't use complimentary lunch to help close the sale...


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## neroden (Apr 19, 2015)

jis said:


> There is something to be learned from Alaska Rail Road. In the off season trains they have a single food service car which serves both as the sit down meal Diner and the occasional food purchase Cafe car throughout the journey.


I have to agree. But is it possible for Amtrak to actually learn from other railroads?  Amtrak doesn't even seem capable of learning from itself. Thoughtful reports on how to improve particular problems just go in the drawer, and then Amtrak does something completely different in a half-assed fashion.


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## neroden (Apr 19, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> By the way, I don't think the Tampa market will disappear because of a change in food services. People who want to ride the train will continue to do so. Everybody else will fly or drive. There's a certain audience for LD train travel and it will hold. It just won't get much bigger despite the hopes of many AUers.


This is deeply incorrect. There's a substantial audience who will not fly, but will drive *or* take the train and can be swayed either way. Watch the Tampa-north market for the Silver Star go back to driving.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 19, 2015)

So what I get from the excel sheet that Paulus posted, and the breakdown that Anderson did- long distance trains are important because of the varies city pairs. NARP demonstrated this in their case for LD trains: http://www.narprail.org/uploads/3/0/4/0/30401991/narp_-_ldr_multipurpose_mobility.pdf


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## KmH (Apr 19, 2015)

404 - Page Not Found: with that NARP link.


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## Paulus (Apr 19, 2015)

Here's the proper link.


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 19, 2015)

Oops, thanks. Added a period in the link.


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## tonys96 (Apr 20, 2015)

RyanS said:


> Henry Kisor said:
> 
> 
> > Now how will this play out with AGR points? Will sleeper rooms on this train use fewer points because no meals are served?
> ...


I suspect the award "charges" will be adjusted in the future. My bet would be on leaving them where they are today for the "no food" trains and increasing them on those that provide meals. Time will tell........


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2015)

tonys96 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Henry Kisor said:
> ...


They will put it in the arbitrary machine and there will be no change,


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## neroden (Apr 21, 2015)

Thinking about what I said about the Tampa-to-the-north market "going back to driving", we might see some transfer of passengers onto Auto Train as well.


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## VentureForth (Apr 21, 2015)

This might seem like a dumb question, but from what I've ready on here, I'm sure it isn't.

5 months without a dining car seems to be a long time. All the dining car crew will be reassigned, requiring either new staff or retraining new folks to come back online after January.

I just can't shake that feeling that this test is designed to fail, yet will be promoted as a success.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2015)

My worry is that it will be a success.

Just like with the airlines. Passengers will gladly forfeit leg room, if the fares drop by just a buck. They might still complain about the lack of leg room, but secretly savor the money they saved.

I mean, people buy airline tickets by sorting by price, not by leg room. Even Amsnag is used to get the lowest fare (lowest bucket), not the most meals.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 21, 2015)

Maybe someone in one of the longer dwell stop cities will become creative and do like the ELP Burrito Lady or ELP Pizza Guy when the _*Star*_ pulls in.


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## neroden (Apr 22, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> I just can't shake that feeling that this test is designed to fail, yet will be promoted as a success.


Yeah. Perhaps lower passengers, lower revenues, bad for Amtrak's bottom line, and trumpeted as a "success" because it cut dining car costs? We've seen nonsense like that before, in previous decades.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2015)

Frankly listening to presentations day before yesterday at NARP from Amtrak I got a distinct impression that they would not be unhappy if the experiment fails so that they have a real world data point to use in their arguments against Congressional micromanagement to show what is known experimentally not to work. This is my impression. Maybe others that were present can chime in and confirm or refute.


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## greatcats (Apr 22, 2015)

I certainly would not ride that train long distance with only a snack bar to rely on. Imagine dinner hour with lines going out the door. If they have a way to beef up the snack bar service, maybe, otherwise I would bring a cooler with my own food. I hope this brainstorm fails, too.


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## Anderson (Apr 22, 2015)

jis said:


> Frankly listening to presentations day before yesterday at NARP from Amtrak I got a distinct impression that they would not be unhappy if the experiment fails so that they have a real world data point to use in their arguments against Congressional micromanagement to show what is known experimentally not to work. This is my impression. Maybe others that were present can chime in and confirm or refute.


That's my read. I think they are _expecting_ it to fail; the experiment is likely only planned to run as long as it is because of bid issues. There's also the fact that by sacking and un-sacking the diner staff they can turn over X union positions from high-seniority workers to low-seniority workers, which seems to be one of those beneath-the-surface considerations.


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## OBS (Apr 23, 2015)

There won't be any change in seniority workers, other than the lowest seniority, ie newest and usually most enthusiastic and customer service oriented, will be furloughed for 6 months, during which time many will find another job and when Amtrak resumes diner service in 6 months, they will find themselves desperately short of help any will be scrambling to hire....I have seen same scenario many times...


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## cirdan (Apr 23, 2015)

Guest said:


> My worry is that it will be a success.
> 
> Just like with the airlines. Passengers will gladly forfeit leg room, if the fares drop by just a buck. They might still complain about the lack of leg room, but secretly savor the money they saved.
> 
> I mean, people buy airline tickets by sorting by price, not by leg room. Even Amsnag is used to get the lowest fare (lowest bucket), not the most meals.


On airlines, people often don't have much of an alternative if they don't have the time for a surface journey. Therefore there is a significant part of the airline market that is captive and hence price driven.

In many cases, there are alternatives to train travel. Trains are neither the cheapest nor the fastest option. The people who take them nevertheless therefore do so by choice. Eroding away the reasons they make that choice may lose them as customers.


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## KmH (Apr 23, 2015)

greatcats said:


> I certainly would not ride that train long distance with only a snack bar to rely on. Imagine dinner hour with lines going out the door.


Hour*s*?

Some people like to eat breakfast/lunch/dinner early, some late, some in between.

Being a Café instead of a dining car the Café is open is only closed when the attendant is on break, instead of the limited hours the dining car is available.

A plus may be that if a person wants a hamburger or pizza for breakfast, or a bagel with cream cheese for dinner a Café car can accommodate them.


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## jis (Apr 23, 2015)

cirdan said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > My worry is that it will be a success.
> ...


Unless we have evidence to the contrary, one has to start with the assumption that the demographics of those that take the train is substantially similar to those that fly, which means that lower fare will indeed trump all else for a majority of travelers. However, that does not mean the a higher level of service should be denied to those that are willing to pay for such.

This came up in the Q&A with Joe McHugh the other day, and he did mention the possibility of providing purchasable service packages over and above the base fare, so a traveler can choose such, In a sidebar conversation the thought that such packages could be made available to not just Sleeper but even to Coach passengers was mentioned too. This would of course also be an incentive to actually provide the specific service promised as part of package much more carefully, than the cavalier fashion in which Sleeper fare included "service" is handled these days. Of course with these things you can never tell what might or might not happen until the proverbial "fat lady sings", so take everything with a dollop of salt.

But one thing that seemed to keep coming out of the conversations is that almost everyone expects the Diner to be back on the Star after this test period. But it is possible that the Diner/Cafe idea that has been mentioned in a few PIPs might come to pass to enhance the revenue stream of the Diner, and other possible innovative ideas will be tried in course of time.


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## VentureForth (Apr 23, 2015)

There was an experiment on the Sunset Limited a long time ago testing a 24-hour diner. The testers claimed success, Amtrak declared a failure. This community all but snubbed it because Bruce Richardson was involved with it. The win win was that there were fewer long lines, people could dine whenever, they actually hired more crew and revenue more than covered the extra labor.


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## Anderson (Apr 23, 2015)

That's interesting in many ways. If nothing else, though, I suspect that a lot of the "win" came from the fact that when combined with the unreliable timing, there were likely a lot of passengers who wound up either being able to have a meal in spite of a late departure time (i.e. not missing out on dinner because the train leaves a station at 9:05 PM instead of 8:35 PM (been there, done that)) or being able to have breakfast even if the train is running early (i.e. the Meteor into WAS...been there, done that as well!). Un-squeezing some endpoint meals (i.e. the Chief into LAX) would also help. I suspect you can move quite a few meals with those adjustments...especially on trains with dubious reliability but also in cases of slightly clumsy schedules, effectively making a meal available to pax immediately pre-arrival/post-departure, such as on the Meteor out of Richmond NB or the Star out of Jacksonville NB would kick quite a bit of revenue into the diner.

The other thing this would do is severely limit "freeze-outs" from the diner (since pax who "couldn't be accommodated" during the normal meal time could spill over outside of that timeframe more or less at will.

Edit: One other relevant thought here is that even if you didn't go to a full 24 hours, operating on the cafe's hours (say, 0600-0000) for the whole period would at least ensure that the car wasn't automatically sitting idle/without revenue generation for close to half of that period (i.e. 0900-1200, 1430-1700, and 2100-0000).


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## jis (Apr 23, 2015)

If Amrtak Diners could simply do what say the Senate Cafeteria can do, which is serve the food either for consumption in the cafe as a tray meal or in a box to take away, that flexibility alone will allow people to get food with lesser time constraints and also lesser venue of consumption constraints. Both of those remove unnecessary points of congestion in the flow and thus is likely to improve sales I think. And yes, if it proves to be popular there will be some amount of lines to contend with. I don't see any way around it specially around popular meal times. happens even in the Diner, which is partly mitigated by reservations and sittings. no reason a similar thing would not work even in a buffet situation.


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## Anderson (Apr 23, 2015)

jis said:


> If Amrtak Diners could simply do what say the Senate Cafeteria can do, which is serve the food either for consumption in the cafe as a tray meal or in a box to take away, that flexibility alone will allow people to get food with lesser time constraints and also lesser venue of consumption constraints. Both of those remove unnecessary points of congestion in the flow and thus is likely to improve sales I think. And yes, if it proves to be popular there will be some amount of lines to contend with. I don;t see any way around it specially around popular meal times. happens even in the Diner, which is partly mitigated by reservations and sittings. nor easons a similar thing would not work even in a buffet situation.


Well, and that's how it plays out in the House Cafeteria as well: The place will be swamped at noon but not so much at, say, 3:00 in the afternoon. I do like the idea of allowing either take-away (which _is_ an option on Amtrak, though you have to know to ask for it...did that a few times when trying to get my steak on the way back to Richmond from DC) or a place-your-order-and-we-call-you-when-it-is-ready system (_very_ common).


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## VentureForth (Apr 23, 2015)

I thought anyone can get take out during any regular dining time.

Perhaps a non-sitting, take out only time? Full menu, but it'll be packed to go between 1430-1700 and, say, 2100-2300.

In fact, this would have been a good time to "redo" the experiment from 1999 - on the Meteor! Run the Star without a Diner and run the Meteor with 24 hour diner.

The report said that they only needed an additional crew of two that would help spread out the workload and increase breaktimes between shifts. You could work 8 on, 8 off alternating - 0600-1400-2200-0600. The next day the coverage would switch so both crews could have the same workload and tips. So where would that crew come from? Oh yeah, the Star.

On another note, here is an interesting Congressional report on the mismanagement of F&B service, really hitting against Amtrak personnel.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 23, 2015)

jis said:


> Frankly listening to presentations day before yesterday at NARP from Amtrak I got a distinct impression that they would not be unhappy if the experiment fails so that they have a real world data point to use in their arguments against Congressional micromanagement to show what is known experimentally not to work. This is my impression. Maybe others that were present can chime in and confirm or refute.


Can you point to any law passed by Congress that specifically said for Amtrak to cut diners and only have cafe food for sleeper passengers? As far as I know, the requirement passed by Congress (and signed by the President) requires Amtrak to eliminate food service losses - losses that make up a disproportionally large share of the total operating loss of Amtrak. Congress did not require any specific way to for Amtrak to meet that goal. Amtrak chose this way to experiment toward reaching that goal. Specifying the goal for an organization, and then having that organization decide how to implement changes to meet that goal, is not micromanaging, at least by any definition I've heard of the word.


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## Ryan (Apr 23, 2015)

It all depends on what level that goal is set.

If Congress wants Amtrak to minimize their operational losses, specify that and let Amtrak decide on hope best to execute.

Singling out a single area to reduce losses in is excessive (and ridiculous in an area that has always been a loss leader).


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## jis (Apr 23, 2015)

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Frankly listening to presentations day before yesterday at NARP from Amtrak I got a distinct impression that they would not be unhappy if the experiment fails so that they have a real world data point to use in their arguments against Congressional micromanagement to show what is known experimentally not to work. This is my impression. Maybe others that were present can chime in and confirm or refute.
> ...


No there is no law as such. however, if you wish to learn what impression I got listening to folks talk, answer questions and their body language, the sense I got is that this exercise is to inoculate one self from the criticism that you have not tried to do anything to address Congress' admittedly misplaced emphasis, and are sitting on your thumbs doing nothing.

Frankly, Amtrak management has relatively little leverage on this matter with Congress. It is for us the citizens to collectively go and bend Congress' ears again just IMHO. I cannot point to any law that says Congress cannot be lobbied by Amtrak on this or any other matter either. Some of us did our part this week and continue to do so. it is time that others stepped upto the plate and wrote to their Congressman and Senators on this specific issue, though the situation at present on this is not terribly encouraging at least from what I heard and saw.

Where I specifically disagree with you is in your claim that demanding that food service be a profitable concern by itself is not micromanaging. in my books that precisely is what is micromanaging. Congress should be stating broad goals like reducing losses in running trains overall, and not talking about whether the food service or the toilet service should by themselves be profit centers. So if you disagree on that, so be it. We shall never come to agree with each other on that point. Sorry,.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2015)

I wonder what fraction of one percent of the national debt can be attributed directly to Amtrak's food service losses?

Considering the many big problems we face in this country, is it really worth the amount of time Congress spends on the issue?


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 23, 2015)

I think John Mica should be the next President/CEO of Amtrak since he has so much experience Mica Managing Amtrak, especially the Food and Beverage Services!

Bill, I'm surprised that you, of all people, would stand up for these Congressional Clowns when the important things they need to be taking care of are ignored so they can put on Dog and Pony Shows such as the $25 AmburgerGate Investigation and pass idiotic amendments requiring Amtrak to make a profit on food and beverage operations within 5 years!!!


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## Palmetto (Apr 24, 2015)

I like the perspective in your first sentence, Jim. Nothing like trying to run something [like a school, in my case] to get a very different perspective on the whole operation.


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## SilverStar (Apr 24, 2015)

Anderson said:


> That's my read. I think they are _expecting_ it to fail; the experiment is likely only planned to run as long as it is because of bid issues. There's also the fact that by sacking and un-sacking the diner staff they can turn over X union positions from high-seniority workers to low-seniority workers, which seems to be one of those beneath-the-surface considerations.





OBS said:


> There won't be any change in seniority workers, other than the lowest seniority, ie newest and usually most enthusiastic and customer service oriented, will be furloughed for 6 months, during which time many will find another job and when Amtrak resumes diner service in 6 months, they will find themselves desperately short of help any will be scrambling to hire....I have seen same scenario many times...


There are no furloughs involved with this test/experiment/market evaluation, but as OBS said the lowest seniority people would go. The schedules have been reworked and expanded. Currently, Miami OBS crews works 4 days on and 4 days off. Now it is going to 4 days on and either five or six days off (I've heard it both ways) thus increasing the number of crew sets required and giving the displaced diner employees a place to go. Hopefully, this means when the experiment ends it will be much easier to return the diner to service having the necessary staffing available by putting the schedules back.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 24, 2015)

So Silver Train OBS will have more days off which means LESS Pay and Tips! Guess that's better than Layoffs, but not good for workers or passengers!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 24, 2015)

I find this hard to believe. The top of the staffing board willing to cut there pay for six months, just so the bottom of the board keeps working. I hope it true, but I really doubt it.

Sounds like a mangers plan. Not yet approve by the labour union.

So what happens at the end of the six months, what if the union members like the extra day(s) off and now wants to keep them?

Ok that just made up, but cutting your pay for your fellow union worker is a front page story.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2015)

An interesting discussion on airliners.net on the tension between ticket price and level of provided service and how people feel about it, triggered by an article claiming that the airline management is wrong in going the direction they have, and several participants in the article actually disagreeing with the article!

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6386213/


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## Chaz (Apr 30, 2015)

Like so many links posted on this board the outside discussion on airline pricing won't work on my IPad app even if I try webview.

Usually I think it's because folks post a Twitter link rather than the actual link.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2015)

The airliners.net link is an actual link to a forum thread and has nothing to do with Twitter. Indeed, I have never posted anything from twitter here since I seldom use twitter.


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## cirdan (Apr 30, 2015)

jis said:


> An interesting discussion on airliners.net on the tension between ticket price and level of provided service and how people feel about it, triggered by an article claiming that the airline management is wrong in going the direction they have, and several participants in the article actually disagreeing with the article!
> 
> http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6386213/


I've been flying on Easyjet a lot lately, but recently had to fly on a legacy carrier (Swiss).

There are many things that struck me on flying on this legacy carrier, being in the Easyjet mindset. Some points that come to mind

1) check in procedures are much more efficient on Easyjet. Swiss only open the chek in 24 hour before the flight. If you're travelling you don't always have access to a computer or WiFi so have to check in at the airport. Physically. At a desk. If feels like 1954. Or if you don't like the desk, at a machine whose interface was designed by somebody who must rabidly hate customers. This shows how the small things we take for granted on Easyjet are not being copied by other airlines.

2) Boarding is way more efficient on Easyjet. The plane has two doors and some people don't mind walking over the tarmac to climb the stairs to the rear door. Leave the tube to those who really need it because of disabilities, travelling with children etc. This means you board faster and have less turnaround time. Boarding on Swiss felt like a painful stab from years long past. Maybe one day airports may even be able to provide gates with two tubes.

3) Order of boarding. On Swiss, business class board first, and then the cattle class are marched through the business class to get to their seats. Whoever thought that one out? Oh yes, its because we've always done things that way and change is bad.

4) The interior. This is where Swiss wins over Easyjet, but only because they don't manage to sell all the seats so you can spread out your stuff on the empty seat next to you.

5) Food service. Here Easyjet wins totally. If people can chose and pay for their food this drives innovation and it shows.

6) Complaints. People say that Easyjet is a cheap airline and you get what you pay for and shouldn't expect any service. But I have nevertheless always experienced their customer service to be no frills but to be ready to do what it takes when there's a delay or cancellation. My return flight on Swiss was cancelled and we're now four months down the road and I'm still arguing with them to get a refund. Avoid them like the plague.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2015)

Not to stray off into an airline discussion, my motivation for posting that pointer was to bring to attention that the whole discussion about what to unbundle and what to bundle has been an ongoing discussion in other parts of the transport industry and the results of such are very broadly biased towards unbundling, and that is what a vast majority of customers are willing to put up with. However, Those that like bundling always have the choice of buying the whole bundle, but those tend to be not the majority of travelers, specially among those that are traveling on their own dime, apparently. I don't see any evidence that it is any different on Amtrak, except for the few who pine for the golden days of yore and are hoping to make Amtrak a suitable substitute. Frankly that should not be the primary goal of a state subsidized/contracted service provider. The primary goal should be to provide good quality transport with bundles of adequate/good services that the customer is able to buy in addition to the basic transportation, should they so choose.


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## andersone (Apr 30, 2015)

I am old enough to remember places (I think the Greenbrier still might have this model) with "European Plan" and "American Plan." the former being similar to Amtrak LD (meals included) and the latter pay as you go. Mother always preferred European as she contended you have to eat anyway. Mother never liked carrying a purse, and hence another reason for her preference.

I am not so sure that paying as you go wouldn't satisfy the majority, and the method I use to calculate the costs of my trips always includes food I find Amtrak food to be reasonable, if not often cost effective. Now if value could be gained by offering both, perhaps both sides could win.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2015)

I am OK with Amtrak food in general. My problem is three meals a day. I normally do not eat that much, and I find it irksome to pay for something that I know I will not use.


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## Anderson (Apr 30, 2015)

jis said:


> I am OK with Amtrak food in general. My problem is three meals a day. I normally do not eat that much, and I find it irksome to pay for something that I know I will not use.


I generally sit at two meals per day (by technicality, I'm almost always fasting according to current Roman Catholic Church guidance...which is amusing in so many ways); breakfast is the weakest link and gets dropped since I'm not a morning person.

Of course, this reminds me of how irksome I find a "free breakfast" to be at most hotels (for both this reason and, frankly, tax/expense reasons since if the hotel includes breakfast you're supposed to take that as your breakfast meal expense even if you either didn't eat breakfast or opted to eat elsewhere...if nothing else, the "free breakfast" comes across as a way for the hotel to get around expensing limits).

On the train (as with the hotel) I often look at the whole charge as going to the cost of the room (since the breakfast portion is arguably at most 5-10% in both cases) and there are enough other odds and ends that I get out of the deal.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

Three obvious thoughts emerge with respect to the airline passenger satisfaction discussion:

-One is that passengers are just getting used to (and arguably numb to) lousy service, not to mention generational turnover (i.e. a non-trivial share of the market likely had very limited experience traveling pre-9/11 and a _ver__y_ large share has no experience with pre-deregulation travel).

-The second is the idea that passengers are, broadly leaning towards being price-conscious instead of amenity-conscious (at least on shorter flights) and that if the FAA would allow it you've got a lot of pax who would accept a "standing seat" with some sort of harness to keep you from flying around in turbulence to save $20 (and probably kvetch about it afterwards). RyanAir trial-ballooned such a concept IIRC and from what I recall the reception was more "Good luck with the authorities" than "Horrible idea".

--Adjunct to this is that one of the biggest complaints (legroom cutting) has been a non-trivial part of why fares have come down. If a passenger has a choice between a $250 ticket with 31" of pitch or a $300 ticket with 34" of pitch, how many will pick the cheaper one? Quite a few, if market trends have been any indication.

-The third is that you're likely to get an increasing division in the domestic market on the basis of the quality-vs-price debate. If you want quality, you've got Virgin. If you want cheap, you've got Spirit. And so on.

--Adjunct to _this_ is the fact that Sabre is, in fact, working with Virgin. This came up on the VX forum over on FlyerTalk: Sabre is under contract with them for a dynamic pricing product for upgrades.

--And adjunct to _that_ is this quote: "As airlines make the investment and travelers become accustomed to end-to-end personalization, *high-margin ancillary sales *and cost-saving service opportunities will become vital to optimizing the financial health of airlines." The bold is mine. I read that as "You'll be able to buy more/better food options in advance if you want to" as an easy example (guess which airline has been working an aggressive buy-on-board angle for a while, albeit emphasizing making it decent food that is for sale). Frankly, I'm going to try and read the report, but it sounds like the author of the Forbes article took a headline on a report and didn't bother reading the contents.

Link to FT: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/virgin-america-elevate/1673935-vx-quietly-increases-cost-mcs-f-upgrades-short-med-haul-routes.html


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 30, 2015)

When I'm riding in Coach on Amtrak ( ie paying for the trip!) during meal times, I generally eat Breakfast ( best overall value ) or Lunch in the Dinner and skip Dinner which I consider overpriced for the choices and quality now offered!

When riding in a Sleeping Car ( always AGR Awards unless an extremely good Low Bucket Roomette comes up) I generally skip Lunch since, as jis says, I don't normally eat that much food!

I like the idea of bundling and paying for upgrades like the airlines offer.

I'm a big fan of the slumber Coach concept since I actually got to ride in them many times in the old days!

Breakfast in the Diner into Atlanta, Chicago or Washington was great after sleeping overnight in my room!!


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## neroden (May 12, 2015)

jis said:


> Unless we have evidence to the contrary, one has to start with the assumption that the demographics of those that take the train is substantially similar to those that fly,


I don't have hard evidence for this, but I'm almost certain this is wrong. Everything I've ever seen suggests that demographics of those that take the train is substantially similar to those that *drive*.
(I'm not sure how that differs from those that fly, but I think it does.)

The vast majority of people I've met on a train or in a station consider driving to be the alternative. They have often been deliberately avoiding flying -- and at the very least, they do not consider the speed of a flight to be an advantage.

I'm not sure how that affects your thinking on this....



> which means that lower fare will indeed trump all else for a majority of travelers. However, that does not mean the a higher level of service should be denied to those that are willing to pay for such.
> 
> This came up in the Q&A with Joe McHugh the other day, and he did mention the possibility of providing purchasable service packages over and above the base fare, so a traveler can choose such, In a sidebar conversation the thought that such packages could be made available to not just Sleeper but even to Coach passengers was mentioned too. This would of course also be an incentive to actually provide the specific service promised as part of package much more carefully, than the cavalier fashion in which Sleeper fare included "service" is handled these days.


Well, one thing about driving is that every cost is very, very unbundled! Different restaurant each meal, different gas station each fill-up, etc...
Driving also has the "stopover privilege" -- and I've realized that a lot of people do ask whether they can get tickets with "stopover privilege", where they can just decide to get off, spend a day in a town, and get back on the train the next day. Which on Amtrak you usually can't get. (I think this is confirming my theory that the main competition is driving, not flying.)



> Of course with these things you can never tell what might or might not happen until the proverbial "fat lady sings", so take everything with a dollop of salt.
> 
> But one thing that seemed to keep coming out of the conversations is that almost everyone expects the Diner to be back on the Star after this test period. But it is possible that the Diner/Cafe idea that has been mentioned in a few PIPs might come to pass to enhance the revenue stream of the Diner, and other possible innovative ideas will be tried in course of time.


Think about Amtrak as competing with long-distance driving, not with flying. I'm not sure what ideas that gives you in terms of innovative amenity structures, but it might inspire you to come up with something clever...


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## jis (May 15, 2015)

Except on the NEC? Or do you believe that all those that stopped flying reducing the demand on air traffic on the NEC are not taking trains? But anyway that is not LD so irrelevant here.

In general I still believe unbundling is a good thing. Bundling of the food with Sleeper was originally done hoping to force more people to use the Diner and to charge them for food that they do not necessarily consume and then to use that to gussy up the revenue picture instead of transferring it all to support the Diner. Which is just plain dishonest IMHO.

I have no idea why Amtrak does not consider giving stopover privileges at least for a limited number of them, perhaps even charging a small premium per stopover.


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## John Bobinyec (May 19, 2015)

The diner is back online now if you start booking trips in February 2016. Fares have been adjusted accordingly.

jb


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## neroden (May 19, 2015)

jis said:


> Except on the NEC? Or do you believe that all those that stopped flying reducing the demand on air traffic on the NEC are not taking trains? But anyway that is not LD so irrelevant here.


I think people only started flying on the NEC because the roads there were so crowded (...which they still are). Those are crazy short distances to take an airplane.



> I have no idea why Amtrak does not consider giving stopover privileges at least for a limited number of them, perhaps even charging a small premium per stopover.


Yes, it seems to me like it would be a popular ticket type.


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