# 1971-1979 Amtrak ridership



## Swadian Hardcore

Does anybody know the LD ridership figures from the inception of Amtrak to the 1979 cuts? There seemed to be a lot more routes back then and also some of the trains were really long. I heard that it was "over 10 milloin a year" but I don't know how much exactly and how much of it was LD. The SD ridership comes out if I know the total and then the LD figures.

I also heard that the Lone Star was Amtrak's seventh most popular LD, but that was from Wikipedia.

Anybody know the reason of the 1979 cuts? Some sources say "political reasons." The Floridian had low ridership but what about the NCL, NL, and LS? The Champion was definately popular in the winter.


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## Anderson

I would actually second this and ask if anybody knows a good listing of route riderships pre-2003. I just don't have access to that data to compare longer-term performance or to compare present operations with those that went before.


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## ehbowen

Political. Jimmy Carter was an abject failure as a president, and with an election coming up he wanted to make it look like he was Doing Something. Amtrak had been sold with the notion that passenger trains could be "profitable", but in an environment where air and highway competition is both directly and indirectly subsidized that's just not possible without some form of direct subsidy. JC wanted to make a big show of chopping that subsidy. Considering that the Ayatollahs were preparing to reset the gas pumps yet again...can you say, "Penny wise, Pound foolish?"


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## afigg

Anderson said:


> I would actually second this and ask if anybody knows a good listing of route riderships pre-2003. I just don't have access to that data to compare longer-term performance or to compare present operations with those that went before.


The total annual ridership numbers are listed in the Amtrak 40th Anniversary book for each decade. Along with total stations served, passenger miles, ticket revenue. The top fiscal year in the 1970s for ridership was 1979 with 21,406,768 with 571 stations served and $375 million in ticket revenue. The number of stations dropped to 525 in FY1980, which is presumably the result of the 1979 service cuts.

There may be an issue for the 1970s of how good Amtrak's record keeping is going that far back. Did they maintain separate records for the NEC, the short distance corridors, and the long distance trains back then that can be cleanly mapped to the current train service categories? They may done so back then, but the detailed records may have been kept on now obsolete computer format data files or on media (9 track tapes, punch cards, paper tapes, hard drives) that were never converted or transferred to newer computer files. One would hope that the data has been retained, but a lot of companies dump 20-30 year old records & media and only retain the top level financial data.


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## Anderson

There's a breakout between the "expanded NEC" and the "rest of the system" pre-2000s. What bugs me is that there's some scattershot data on Wikipedia for a few trains, but not for any of the big ones.


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## Eric S

_Amtrak in the Heartland_ by Craig Sanders details the changes in Amtrak's various routes/trains which serve and have served the "Heartland," which he essentially defines as any trains operating to, through, or from the Midwest (basically all Chicago trains plus a few corridors that are appendages of Chicago trains). In the book, some ridership figures are listed, but unfortunately it does not list every train every year. With that in mind, here is what it has (with 2011 figures for comparison):

*Cardinal*

1975 - 111,965

1976 - 129,294

2011 - 110,923

*Empire Builder*

1973 - 363,100

1974 - 385,300

1975 - 324,639

1976 - 311,576

1977 - 297,180

2011 - 469,167

*Floridian*

1974 - 157,198

1975 - 139,670

1976 - 153,054

1977 - 146,500

*Inter-American/Eagle/Texas Eagle*

1974 - 48,851

1975 - 40,476

1977 - 144,477

2011 - 299,508

*National Limited*

1975 - 163,422

1976 - 179,213

1977 - 191,692

*North Coast Hiawatha*

1973 - 227,200

1974 - 280,800

1975 - 208,809

1976 - 191,615

1977 - 205,642

*Panama Limited/City of New Orleans*

1974 - 195,899

1975 - 174,014

2011 - 233,318

*Super Chief/Southwest Limited/Southwest Chief*

1974 - 327,000, with a note that most years in the 1970s hovered around 280,000

2011 - 354,912

*Texas Chief/Lone Star*

1973 - 257,800

1974 - 277,760

1975 - 255,881

1976 - 274,448

Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.


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## Anderson

Thanks a bunch. That is actually _really_ helpful. The only route I'd love to see that's not listed there is the Silver Service (just because of the odd history there).

Also, in '74 was the Cardinal daily or three-times-weekly? And at that time wasn't it still running split between a NYP section and a NPN section?


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## Anthony

ehbowen said:


> Political. Jimmy Carter was an abject failure as a president, and with an election coming up he wanted to make it look like he was Doing Something. Amtrak had been sold with the notion that passenger trains could be "profitable", but in an environment where air and highway competition is both directly and indirectly subsidized that's just not possible without some form of direct subsidy. JC wanted to make a big show of chopping that subsidy. Considering that the Ayatollahs were preparing to reset the gas pumps yet again...can you say, "Penny wise, Pound foolish?"


Careful with the politics... :lol: :lol:


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## Anderson

Anthony said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Political. Jimmy Carter was an abject failure as a president, and with an election coming up he wanted to make it look like he was Doing Something. Amtrak had been sold with the notion that passenger trains could be "profitable", but in an environment where air and highway competition is both directly and indirectly subsidized that's just not possible without some form of direct subsidy. JC wanted to make a big show of chopping that subsidy. Considering that the Ayatollahs were preparing to reset the gas pumps yet again...can you say, "Penny wise, Pound foolish?"
> 
> 
> 
> Careful with the politics... :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

And don't be shilling for him


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## afigg

Eric S said:


> Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.


Yes, those numbers are very helpful. Thanks for posting them. Provides some insight into the ridership numbers and patterns from the 1970s compared to today. Some large year to year swing in the 1970s for some LD trains. Looks like the National Limited and North Coast Hiawatha would be getting good ridership numbers today if they had somehow managed to and survive. Bring them back! 

The Cardinal variations over 1970s and 80s complicate any ridership comparisons. What would have been the typical consist and sleeper capacity back in those days?


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## johnny.menhennet

Eric S said:


> *Inter-American/Eagle/Texas Eagle*
> 
> 1974 - 48,851
> 
> 1975 - 40,476
> 
> 1977 - 144,477
> 
> 2011 - 299,508
> 
> Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.


First, Eric, that was incredibly helpful and fun to see, even though I'm not doing any of the calculations that Swadian and Anderson may or may not be doing.

On the TE, I am super impressed with the 2011 ridership. I had no idea that it was this high even though these stats were recently published. Since it is a train with only 1 consistent sleeper, I assume that the load factors must be pretty high. For the benefit of the doubt on the TE's side, I will assume that the 40,000 was with a tri-weekly train.

A few bright spots I noticed:

The Lone Star actually looks like it was very well patronized. It wouldn't surprise me if the 1979 LD routes that were selected were not actually only on ridership, probably much more political. I can now easily believe the 7th most popular LD claim, maybe even higher in some years. An this is assuming many more LD trains than we have now, so 7 probably meant more back then.

I also thought that the National Limited figures were decent in the later years posted

Other way around:

I know that 200K+ is good, but I did honestly think that the NCH's figures would have been higher, so I was disheartened a little bit.


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## Devil's Advocate

Anthony said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Political. Jimmy Carter was an abject failure as a president, and with an election coming up he wanted to make it look like he was Doing Something. Amtrak had been sold with the notion that passenger trains could be "profitable", but in an environment where air and highway competition is both directly and indirectly subsidized that's just not possible without some form of direct subsidy. JC wanted to make a big show of chopping that subsidy. Considering that the Ayatollahs were preparing to reset the gas pumps yet again...can you say, "Penny wise, Pound foolish?"
> 
> 
> 
> Careful with the politics... :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

*Ehbowen* has left us a steaming pile of by-the-book political trolling. The exact sort of thing that supposedly is not allowed regardless of affiliation or lack thereof. I'm glad nobody took the bait, but it still smells like a double standard to me. Hopefully I'm wrong about that. <_<


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## johnny.menhennet

Texas Sunset said:


> Anthony said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Political. Jimmy Carter was an abject failure as a president, and with an election coming up he wanted to make it look like he was Doing Something. Amtrak had been sold with the notion that passenger trains could be "profitable", but in an environment where air and highway competition is both directly and indirectly subsidized that's just not possible without some form of direct subsidy. JC wanted to make a big show of chopping that subsidy. Considering that the Ayatollahs were preparing to reset the gas pumps yet again...can you say, "Penny wise, Pound foolish?"
> 
> 
> 
> Careful with the politics... :lol: :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Ehbowen* has left us a steaming pile of by-the-book political trolling. The exact sort of thing that supposedly is not allowed regardless of affiliation or lack thereof. I'm glad nobody took the bait, but it still smells like a double standard to me. Hopefully I'm wrong about that. <_<
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't find it bad or offensive whatsoever. I don't like the fact we have to try to censor ourselves as much as we do. IMO, Ehbowen was trying to provide us with a logical explanation of why so many popular trains were cut in 79. Because that reason was politically motivated, it was mentioned in his post. Yes I see the part about him being an abject failure as a president, but I choose to overlook that because it really doesn't matter to me who has what to say about politics, and it doesn't affect me one bit. And yes I know that the reason may not seem "logical" but it was in Jimmy Carter's mind. Seriously, cut the "NO POLITICS" crap. This country right now entirely around politics, with everything connecting to it. If somebody came on and said "ALL REPUBLICANS ARE BAD" or "ALL DEMOCRATS SHOULD F*** THEMSELVES" sure reprimand them, but this is obviously not the case here. My point of view. Now open for cross-examination.


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## Anderson

afigg said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, those numbers are very helpful. Thanks for posting them. Provides some insight into the ridership numbers and patterns from the 1970s compared to today. Some large year to year swing in the 1970s for some LD trains. Looks like the National Limited and North Coast Hiawatha would be getting good ridership numbers today if they had somehow managed to and survive. Bring them back!
> 
> The Cardinal variations over 1970s and 80s complicate any ridership comparisons. What would have been the typical consist and sleeper capacity back in those days?
Click to expand...

Three general points here:

1) The NCH/EB numbers are a bit of a tangle...but do remember that having an NCH and an EB covered a good deal more intermediate territory and likely drove up joint ridership a bit.

2) The wild gyrations are more or less down to the wild, wild swings in gas prices. Let's remember how much of a system shock the US got during the '73 embargo; things attempted to revert to the mean in the last half of the decade, but the second crisis triggered another swamping of Amtrak. '74 drove Amtrak to the edge of capacity, IIRC; '79 simply overwhelmed the system to the point that I believe that summer demand was somewhere around 115-120% of capacity (based on the 1.5 million or so riders turned away that summer per something I recall reading).

3) Finally, a point on the present situation versus those crises. While I am very nervous about the implication of those numbers, there is at least some anecdotal evidence that something has changed culturally in the last decade or so (note the lower youth-related car purchases being mentioned in the press); part of it may be the recession (something unlikely to change for a while) and part may be the longer period of sustained higher oil prices (a stable price around $3 would still be somewhere in the ballpark of 50% over pre-2004 prices, and about double those nominal prices...to say nothing of where the numbers were in 1999, with gas prices falling under $.90 for a bit!), but there certainly seems to be a trend at work that may be a bit harder to "walk back" with just a drop in oil prices.

One possibility that I will hazard to guess is this: There was a lot of pipe laid during the 70s for alternative fuels and whatnot, but the technologies didn't have time to come to fruition (i.e. electric cars and the like) before things returned to "normal". However, things had a lot more time to play out this time around (the 2008/9 crash notwithstanding), and that combined with the mess that the economy is in (to say nothing of highway congestion all over the place and the general misery of flying) have helped to push a variety of potentially more lasting behavioral changes.


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## jphjaxfl

Keep in mind that the Floridian and National Limited in the 1970s were impacted by very bad Penn Central Trackage which drove away passengers. Both trains were frequently late. The Floridian trackage was bad from Chicago to Louisville. In 1975, they finally switched it to the former Monon routing and the schedule was more predictible. The National Limited trackage was bad from Pittsburgh to St. Louis. Much of the route is now abandoned. The St. Louis-Kansas City section west bound was so unpredictable that no one rode it. Missouri was not providing a subsidy at that point.


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## Eric S

Anderson said:


> Thanks a bunch. That is actually _really_ helpful. The only route I'd love to see that's not listed there is the Silver Service (just because of the odd history there).
> 
> Also, in '74 was the Cardinal daily or three-times-weekly? And at that time wasn't it still running split between a NYP section and a NPN section?


The _James Whitcomb Riley/Cardinal_ (renamed in 1977) had a NPN section 1971-1976, a Norfolk section (_Mountaineer_ 1975-1977), and a seemingly constantly-changing route through Indiana. It appears the _Cardinal_ did not switch to tri-weekly operation until 1982. (It was discontinued entirely Sep 1981-Jan 1982.)


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> 3) Finally, a point on the present situation versus those crises. While I am very nervous about the implication of those numbers, there is at least some anecdotal evidence that something has changed culturally in the last decade or so (note the lower youth-related car purchases being mentioned in the press); part of it may be the recession (something unlikely to change for a while) and part may be the longer period of sustained higher oil prices (a stable price around $3 would still be somewhere in the ballpark of 50% over pre-2004 prices, and about double those nominal prices...to say nothing of where the numbers were in 1999, with gas prices falling under $.90 for a bit!), but there certainly seems to be a trend at work that may be a bit harder to "walk back" with just a drop in oil prices.


Also, if you don't restrict trains to just Amtrak trains, but look at the bigger picture with commuter rail and urban rail, there is considerably more mileage being operated today than in the 1970s and considerably more ridership, and the trend is clearly continuing with several more projects either being built or likely to be built soon. That means more people are likely to either use rail service (of some sort) more or less regularly or even if they don't use it themselves, they may work with people who do or have family members or friends who do so the whole concept of passenger rail is becoming more and more normal and embedded in people's awareness. That means that whereas people once thought of the car as the first and basically only way of getting anywhere, with there having to be a very compelling reason to even consider any alternative, people are becoming more open minded.


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## trainviews

cirdan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3) Finally, a point on the present situation versus those crises. While I am very nervous about the implication of those numbers, there is at least some anecdotal evidence that something has changed culturally in the last decade or so (note the lower youth-related car purchases being mentioned in the press); part of it may be the recession (something unlikely to change for a while) and part may be the longer period of sustained higher oil prices (a stable price around $3 would still be somewhere in the ballpark of 50% over pre-2004 prices, and about double those nominal prices...to say nothing of where the numbers were in 1999, with gas prices falling under $.90 for a bit!), but there certainly seems to be a trend at work that may be a bit harder to "walk back" with just a drop in oil prices.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you don't restrict trains to just Amtrak trains, but look at the bigger picture with commuter rail and urban rail, there is considerably more mileage being operated today than in the 1970s and considerably more ridership, and the trend is clearly continuing with several more projects either being built or likely to be built soon. That means more people are likely to either use rail service (of some sort) more or less regularly or even if they don't use it themselves, they may work with people who do or have family members or friends who do so the whole concept of passenger rail is becoming more and more normal and embedded in people's awareness. That means that whereas people once thought of the car as the first and basically only way of getting anywhere, with there having to be a very compelling reason to even consider any alternative, people are becoming more open minded.
Click to expand...

Add more urbanization. The proportion of the American population living in urban areas is growing rapidly, and that means more people are living closer to possible rail service and more people are feeling the congestion making driving less attractive.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> _Amtrak in the Heartland_ by Craig Sanders details the changes in Amtrak's various routes/trains which serve and have served the "Heartland," which he essentially defines as any trains operating to, through, or from the Midwest (basically all Chicago trains plus a few corridors that are appendages of Chicago trains). In the book, some ridership figures are listed, but unfortunately it does not list every train every year. With that in mind, here is what it has (with 2011 figures for comparison):
> 
> *Cardinal*
> 
> 1975 - 111,965
> 
> 1976 - 129,294
> 
> 2011 - 110,923
> 
> *Empire Builder*
> 
> 1973 - 363,100
> 
> 1974 - 385,300
> 
> 1975 - 324,639
> 
> 1976 - 311,576
> 
> 1977 - 297,180
> 
> 2011 - 469,167
> 
> *Floridian*
> 
> 1974 - 157,198
> 
> 1975 - 139,670
> 
> 1976 - 153,054
> 
> 1977 - 146,500
> 
> *Inter-American/Eagle/Texas Eagle*
> 
> 1974 - 48,851
> 
> 1975 - 40,476
> 
> 1977 - 144,477
> 
> 2011 - 299,508
> 
> *National Limited*
> 
> 1975 - 163,422
> 
> 1976 - 179,213
> 
> 1977 - 191,692
> 
> *North Coast Hiawatha*
> 
> 1973 - 227,200
> 
> 1974 - 280,800
> 
> 1975 - 208,809
> 
> 1976 - 191,615
> 
> 1977 - 205,642
> 
> *Panama Limited/City of New Orleans*
> 
> 1974 - 195,899
> 
> 1975 - 174,014
> 
> 2011 - 233,318
> 
> *Super Chief/Southwest Limited/Southwest Chief*
> 
> 1974 - 327,000, with a note that most years in the 1970s hovered around 280,000
> 
> 2011 - 354,912
> 
> *Texas Chief/Lone Star*
> 
> 1973 - 257,800
> 
> 1974 - 277,760
> 
> 1975 - 255,881
> 
> 1976 - 274,448
> 
> Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.


Thanks for the info. This stuff is really interesting and gives me a lot to think about.

1. Looks like the EB has always been Amtrak's most popular LD, even when the NCL operated.

2. The I-A was doing really badly until the ridership jump in 1977. Persumably it only ran thrice-weekly previously, then became daily. No matter what, the I-A has far less riderhship than to day and also far less ridership thn the LS. I would think that they would have cancelled the I-A in 1979 instead of the LS.

3. The National Limited was not doing that bad until it was cancelled. Surely there would have been more passengers had there been improved tracks. If they had kept the NL then I would expect high ridership today. It would be good to have old BL and LSL ridership for comparison.

4. The NCL was doing a lot worse than the EB despite the proximity to Yellowstone. There was probably more competetition because of the airports and the Interstate nearby.

5. The CONO does not have much changes compared to 1974-1975. It would probably have more ridership today if the CONO had more cars.

6. Not much improvement for the SWC, especially considering that I was able to find some pictures of really long Southwest Limited consists from the 1970s. You can go to Railpictures to see them.

7. The Floridian was not doing too well. No surprise it got cancelled. It was late all the time and the trakcs were always damaged.

8. The Cardinal is really confusing because, as someone else noted, there were too many changes in the shcedules. At one point it even started in BOS. I can elaborate that the Cardinal consist was somewhere around nine cars each, compared to six cars today.

9. I think the last pieces in the puzzle would be the NYP-MIA trains, the NYP-CHI trains, the NOL-LAX train, and the LAX-SEA train, though the last one is not too important because the CS never had a parralelling train in Amtrak times. It looks like that the LD ridership in the 1970s could be around the same as the ridership today, but I have to know the SL figures, because that train also have some very long consists. It only ran thrice weekly back then.

edit: error


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## xyzzy

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 7. The Floridian was not doing too well. No surprise it got cancelled. It was late all the time and the trakcs were always damaged.


DId you ride it? I did, a lot. It's a myth that the Floridian always ran over bad track. Truth is, the Floridian was a solid performer after three things were fixed. #1, it was put on decent track (the Monon) through Indiana. #2, the unwise deal with Auto-Train was canned. #3, the train was assigned appropriate locomotives (an F40/E8 combo). The track south of Louisville was never really the problem. Timekeeping in the final 18 months was pretty good.

Unfortunately, the cumulative effect of these pre-1978 mistakes -- plus the fact that Floridian often drew the bottom of the barrel in passenger car assignments compared to more favored LD trains.-- was to destroy a train that might still be running today.


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## afigg

cirdan said:


> Also, if you don't restrict trains to just Amtrak trains, but look at the bigger picture with commuter rail and urban rail, there is considerably more mileage being operated today than in the 1970s and considerably more ridership, and the trend is clearly continuing with several more projects either being built or likely to be built soon. That means more people are likely to either use rail service (of some sort) more or less regularly or even if they don't use it themselves, they may work with people who do or have family members or friends who do so the whole concept of passenger rail is becoming more and more normal and embedded in people's awareness. That means that whereas people once thought of the car as the first and basically only way of getting anywhere, with there having to be a very compelling reason to even consider any alternative, people are becoming more open minded.


A major factor in supporting expansion of intercity passenger rail from what the situation was in 1971 is the growth of city rail transit systems, be it heavy rail metro, commuter & regional rail, light rail, street cars. In the 1950s and 60s, many cities shut down their street car and remaining interurban trolley systems. In 1971 at A-day, the only cities that had surviving extensive rail transit systems that come to mind are NYC, Philly, Boston, Chicago with smaller systems in Cleveland, DC with several commuter rail lines, Buffalo?, Pittsburgh?

Since then, Washington DC has undergone a significant transformation with the DC Metro system along with MARC and VRE commuter rail. Baltimore has a single metro line and a light rail line. Atlanta has MARTA. Miami has a single metro line and Tri-Rail. LA now has subway and light rail lines and has plans for an extensive transit system. San Francisco and the Bay area have BART, Muni Metro, streetcars, etc. A number of cities now have light rail systems which they did not have in the 1970s.

All the cities with local rail transit systems provide an improved foundation for intercity passenger rail service to connect the cities. Part of it is yes, increased familiarity with the concept of taking a train for transportation as opposed to the 1950s and 60s when the automobile & suburban sprawl were in ascendance. But another part is more cities that people can travel to by train where they don't need a car to get around the core part of the city region or have to to spend hours figuring out the local bus system.

The growth of local rail transit systems will in the short and long term help drive the development, or depending on your point of view, restoration of corridor trains and in turn provide a better foundation for the LD trains.

Electronic gadgets and the internet - laptops, tablets, smart phones - are also a major factor as people can't text, check emails, or get work done while driving (well, we hope so). Not easy to use the gadgets on an airplane either with having to shut down below 10K feet or having to hold the smartphone 5" away from your face when the person in front of you puts the seat back. On the train, text away or watch movies on your laptop before the train even leaves the station.


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## George Harris

The 1970's were also the years of the Penn Central collapse and general hard times through much of the railroad industry that led up to the Staggers Act which removed a lot of the regulation on the industry. The Penn Central financial collapse and the Rock Island collapse, dismemberment and abandonment of much of the system led to a general wake up call among all parties, regulators, company managements, the brotherhoods, that is was no longer the 1920's and the railroads were not invincible permanent features of the landscape.

It would have been relatively cheap to fix the bad track on the Penn Central that was used by the Floridian, National Limited, and Broadway Limited. Relay rail, about a 30 to 50% tie renewal, a general cleanup and it would have been back to 70 to 79 mph speed limits throughout.

Ehbowen had it right. It was almost entirely political. It was a let's look like we are doing something moment by one of the most incompetent people to ever hold the office of president.

In those early days, Amtrak was not constrained by equipment. That came later, primarily with Warrington's "glide path to self sufficiency" which was more of a nose dive into collapse, where he tried to make the finances look better by selling or mortgaging almost everything he could.

xyzzy is right. The Floridian was a keeper. Here again, some track work was necessary, and not just in Indiana. Montgomery to Waycross also needed work. It was boderline. Everyone keeps talking about going through Atlanta, but that requires more than upgrades in track. It would require a lot of second main, plus a good bit of straightening out to get a reliable good run time. The whole Chicago - Evansville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Jacksonville main line is a very busy piece of railroad.

this gets around to another thing: money has got to be spent on track. Note that somehow by political manipulation there has been a near complete rail relay plus a lot of other work on the Vermonter route north of Springfield, Mass. There are other places where there would be a bigger bang per mile for your buck. Kansas City ot Albuquerque would be one. In years past much of that was 100 mph territory. It is only track that keeps that from happening again. The Memphis to Jackson, Miss. "Grenada District" formerly used by the Panama Liited would have been another. That may be partly abandoned by now, but in years past run times Memphis to Jackson under 4 hours were the norm.


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## johnny.menhennet

Swadian Hardcore said:


> even when the *NCL* operated.
> 
> The *NCL *was doing a lot worse than the EB despite the proximity to Yellowstone. There was probably more competetition because of the airports and the Interstate nearby.


That's weird. I didn't know that Norwegian Cruise Lines was such a big competitor to the CHI-SEA routes. You learn something new every day.

On a serious note, something that could explain the ridership gap between the EB and NCH is the fact that throughout most of its existence, the NCH was tri-weekly. The EB operated either on the other 4 days per week or daily during most of the 70s.


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## Swadian Hardcore

johnny.menhennet said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> even when the *NCL* operated.
> 
> The *NCL *was doing a lot worse than the EB despite the proximity to Yellowstone. There was probably more competetition because of the airports and the Interstate nearby.
> 
> 
> 
> That's weird. I didn't know that Norwegian Cruise Lines was such a big competitor to the CHI-SEA routes. You learn something new every day.
> 
> On a serious note, something that could explain the ridership gap between the EB and NCH is the fact that throughout most of its existence, the NCH was tri-weekly. The EB operated either on the other 4 days per week or daily during most of the 70s.
Click to expand...

Ooops! I was thinking about the North Coast Limited. :unsure:


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## Swadian Hardcore

xyzzy said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7. The Floridian was not doing too well. No surprise it got cancelled. It was late all the time and the trakcs were always damaged.
> 
> 
> 
> DId you ride it? I did, a lot. It's a myth that the Floridian always ran over bad track. Truth is, the Floridian was a solid performer after three things were fixed. #1, it was put on decent track (the Monon) through Indiana. #2, the unwise deal with Auto-Train was canned. #3, the train was assigned appropriate locomotives (an F40/E8 combo). The track south of Louisville was never really the problem. Timekeeping in the final 18 months was pretty good.
> 
> Unfortunately, the cumulative effect of these pre-1978 mistakes -- plus the fact that Floridian often drew the bottom of the barrel in passenger car assignments compared to more favored LD trains.-- was to destroy a train that might still be running today.
Click to expand...

I must admit that I have not. The locomotives are really interesting, were there problems with the previous locomotives? The consist would be really interesting to know, I have not found it anywhere and knowing it would tell me if the cars were somehow worse than on other trains.

edit: error, spell check won't work


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## Devil's Advocate

George Harris said:


> Ehbowen had it right. It was almost entirely political. It was a let's look like we are doing something moment by one of the most incompetent people to ever hold the office of president.


This from someone who rants about other people getting too political in other threads. By all means, let the hypocrisy continue...


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## fulham

In the late 1970's Conrail had fixed up the trackage between Pittsburg and St. Louis. By that time the National Limited was using F40's, Amfleet and an early HEP sleeper. There was no diner, only an AmCafe. The same was true of the Inter-American. The Lone Star never received any new or rebuilt HEP equipment. It was steam heated until the end. I rode both trains during the late 1970's/early 1980's. The Lone Star was a good train until the end. It primarily used ex-Santa Fe equipment including Hi-Level coaches and had ex-Santa Fe employees. The Santa Fe trackage was also good. It was too bad that train was discontinued.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Texas Sunset said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ehbowen had it right. It was almost entirely political. It was a let's look like we are doing something moment by one of the most incompetent people to ever hold the office of president.
> 
> 
> 
> This from someone who rants about other people getting too political in other threads. By all means, let the hypocrisy continue...
Click to expand...

Seriously mister stick-up-his-ass, read one of my previous posts. This is not a big deal. At all. Things could be much worse, and over-regulation doesn't improve dialogue for anyone.


----------



## ehbowen

johnny.menhennet said:


> The Lone Star actually looks like it was very well patronized. It wouldn't surprise me if the 1979 LD routes that were selected were not actually only on ridership, probably much more political. I can now easily believe the 7th most popular LD claim, maybe even higher in some years. An this is assuming many more LD trains than we have now, so 7 probably meant more back then.





Swadian Hardcore said:


> 2. The I-A was doing really badly until the ridership jump in 1977. Persumably it only ran thrice-weekly previously, then became daily. No matter what, the I-A has far less riderhship than to day and also far less ridership thn the LS. I would think that they would have cancelled the I-A in 1979 instead of the LS.


It's been many years, but if I'm remembering correctly one of the reasons (if not THE reason) given for retaining the _Inter-American_ over the _Lone Star_ was that at that time it served Laredo and offered connections into Mexico. Of course, the service from San Antonio to Laredo wouldn't last all that long...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I do not see any reason why they should have cancelled the Lone Star. Besides, the could have rerouted the LS to Loredo. Without Loredo, there is no other reason for the I-A's existence. It is good that this train is so heavily patronized today because otherwise the cut-back to SAS would have caused the I-A's cancellation. I also do not see why they cancelled the Champion.


----------



## Anderson

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I do not see any reason why they should have cancelled the Lone Star. Besides, the could have rerouted the LS to Loredo. Without Loredo, there is no other reason for the I-A's existence. It is good that this train is so heavily patronized today because otherwise the cut-back to SAS would have caused the I-A's cancellation. I also do not see why they cancelled the Champion.


At least with the Champion, what was done (if I am not mistaken) is that the Champ's equipment was merged into the other Silvers. At one point, the combined Champion/Silver Meteor was a 26-car monster of a train. Additionally, I believe that the Silvers both stayed _massive _through most of the 1980s (i.e. in the mid-to-upper teens in terms of cars). It was basically a merger of trains to save on operating expenses, but I believe that most of the capacity remained for quite a while.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

johnny.menhennet said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ehbowen had it right. It was almost entirely political. It was a let's look like we are doing something moment by one of the most incompetent people to ever hold the office of president.
> 
> 
> 
> This from someone who rants about other people getting too political in other threads. By all means, let the hypocrisy continue...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seriously mister stick-up-his-ass, read one of my previous posts. This is not a big deal. At all. Things could be much worse, and over-regulation doesn't improve dialogue for anyone.
Click to expand...

You don't seem to have any clue what I'm talking about. It's not about whether political controversy is bad or good or whether it should be allowed. It's about being _*objective*_ in how any such controversy is handled. That's all. Now, as for the rest of your post, please keep your unsolicited interest in my anatomy to yourself. :lol:


----------



## Ryan

Johnny, you may want to read this:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/forum-13/announcement-7-politics-guidelines/

Particularly this:



> *Any post that expresses favor or preference for or against a specific politician, political candidate, or political party, or what they stand for, may be deleted at any staff member's discretion.* The goal here is to protect the good-natured civility we all enjoy here on the forum. Common sense will dictate whether a post is likely to provoke other members. If we are lucky, the member will exercise such common sense before posting, and no intervention will be required.


It's perfectly possible to say that the Carter cuts were politically motivated without referring to President Carter as "one of the most incompetent people to ever hold the office of president" or saying "Jimmy Carter was an abject failure as a president".

But some people feel the need to get the political digs in and then hide behind the "but I don't want to bring politics into the discussion" when called on it.

Of course, we're likely all in violation of this:



> If you disagree with a moderation decision made by a forum staff member, take it up with that person (or an Administrator) in a private message, NOT in public.


----------



## xyzzy

Yes, Atlanta has MARTA rail that it didn't in 1971. Unfortunately the Amtrak station is nearly a mile from the nearest MARTA rail station. 33 years and 1 Olympics after Amtrak took over the Crescent, there's still no adequate Amtrak station in the country's 9th-most populous metro. Ouch.

As for the Floridian, it's true that Montgomery-Waycross was 300 miles of dark railroad at 59 mph. On the other hand, track conditions back then were no worse than today's Class III track between Raleigh NC and Fairfax SC that the Silver Star uses.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anderson said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not see any reason why they should have cancelled the Lone Star. Besides, they could have rerouted the LS to Loredo. Without Loredo, there is no other reason for the I-A's existence. It is good that this train is so heavily patronized today because otherwise the cut-back to SAS would have caused the I-A's cancellation. I also do not see why they cancelled the Champion.
> 
> 
> 
> At least with the Champion, what was done (if I am not mistaken) is that the Champ's equipment was merged into the other Silvers. At one point, the combined Champion/Silver Meteor was a 26-car monster of a train. Additionally, I believe that the Silvers both stayed _massive _through most of the 1980s (i.e. in the mid-to-upper teens in terms of cars). It was basically a merger of trains to save on operating expenses, but I believe that most of the capacity remained for quite a while.
Click to expand...

Here comes one of the biggest questions in my mind, a huge reason why I started this thread. The SM/SS both used to be very long trains. They are not anymore. The SM/SS are both less than half the size they used to be. Even though Viewliners today carry more that the old Heritage sleepers, there is not much doubt that capacity has taken a hit. That is why I want to know exactly how much ridership the SM/SS used to have when they ran with over 20 cars each. I hope someone can dig up something about that.



xyzzy said:


> Yes, Atlanta has MARTA rail that it didn't in 1971. Unfortunately the Amtrak station is nearly a mile from the nearest MARTA rail station. 33 years and 1 Olympics after Amtrak took over the Crescent, there's still no adequate Amtrak station in the country's 9th-most populous metro. Ouch.
> 
> As for the Floridian, it's true that Montgomery-Waycross was 300 miles of dark railroad at 59 mph. On the other hand, track conditions back then were no worse than today's Class III track between Raleigh NC and Fairfax SC that the Silver Star uses.


The American Southeast is definately a big hole in train operations. If the problems had been fixed in 1978, why did Amtrak cancel the train one year later, in 1979?


----------



## Anderson

Swadian,

The answer to the first question you asked is that when Amtrak had to get rid of their Heritage equipment, they did not get sufficient Viewliners to fill the gaps (and I think they got bupkis in terms of non-sleepers to replace diners and coaches that were retired around the same time). That crushed available capacity (and resulted in the Heritage Diner situation we're looking at now).

As to the '79 cuts, part of it is that Amtrak's subsidy got crunched. There was also a "passengers per train" metric of some sort that was used to determine which trains got the axe, which meant that some trains that were selling out often (such as the National Limited) were cut because Amtrak lacked the equipment to expand them to meet the requirements. With that said, it is quite possible that the Floridian had suffered for long enough up until then that they were unable to get a ridership rebound in time to save the train.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anderson said:


> Swadian,
> 
> The answer to the first question you asked is that when Amtrak had to get rid of their Heritage equipment, they did not get sufficient Viewliners to fill the gaps (and I think they got bupkis in terms of non-sleepers to replace diners and coaches that were retired around the same time). That crushed available capacity (and resulted in the Heritage Diner situation we're looking at now).
> 
> As to the '79 cuts, part of it is that Amtrak's subsidy got crunched. There was also a "passengers per train" metric of some sort that was used to determine which trains got the axe, which meant that some trains that were selling out often (such as the National Limited) were cut because Amtrak lacked the equipment to expand them to meet the requirements. With that said, it is quite possible that the Floridian had suffered for long enough up until then that they were unable to get a ridership rebound in time to save the train.


Actually, I think you misunderstood my question. I was asking for simply the ridership figures of the NYP-MIA trains when they had very long consists. I know that it is hard to get the info but I hope that it is not impossible.

Fpr the 1979 cuts, I think that Amtrak could have just switched some cars from the NYP-MIA trains onto the NL to help meet the requirements. The LS should still have not been cancelled because the I-A was doing so much worse, AFAIK.


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> As to the '79 cuts, part of it is that Amtrak's subsidy got crunched. There was also a "passengers per train" metric of some sort that was used to determine which trains got the axe, which meant that some trains that were selling out often (such as the National Limited) were cut because Amtrak lacked the equipment to expand them to meet the requirements. With that said, it is quite possible that the Floridian had suffered for long enough up until then that they were unable to get a ridership rebound in time to save the train.


When it comes to evaluating to cut a service, they may have looked at the numbers over the previous 2-3 complete fiscal year reports. If the National Limited had started to improve in 1978, the improvement may be too little to change the overall bottom line numbers.

The cuts as I understand it, the cuts were supposedly based on cost recovery numbers. Total ridership provides a very incomplete snapshot. Does not tell us the revenue mix - lot of short haul passengers paying less for tickets or long haul sleeper passengers providing more revenue. The biggest missing part of the picture is how much did it costs to run those trains at that time? Did the train have high crew costs because of inefficient routes or rules that resulted in more crew shifts than needed? Or high pending costs for the route because of decaying tracks and stations.

Still, looking at several of the 1977 and 1978 schedules, there are some interesting trains on there that I wonder how well they would do now (if the tracks were there, all in good condition): the Hilltopper for the interesting route, the Niagara Rainbow, the Shenandoah to Cincinnati. In many ways, in the eastern half of the US, Ohio suffered the biggest loss in passenger train service from the mid-1970s through the early 2000s.


----------



## Eric S

johnny.menhennet said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Inter-American/Eagle/Texas Eagle*
> 
> 1974 - 48,851
> 
> 1975 - 40,476
> 
> 1977 - 144,477
> 
> 2011 - 299,508
> 
> Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> First, Eric, that was incredibly helpful and fun to see, even though I'm not doing any of the calculations that Swadian and Anderson may or may not be doing.
> 
> On the TE, I am super impressed with the 2011 ridership. I had no idea that it was this high even though these stats were recently published. Since it is a train with only 1 consistent sleeper, I assume that the load factors must be pretty high. For the benefit of the doubt on the TE's side, I will assume that the 40,000 was with a tri-weekly train.
Click to expand...

1973 - tri-weekly, Fort Worth - Laredo

1974 - tri-weekly, St. Louis - Laredo

1976 - daily, Chicago - Fort Worth; tri-weekly, Fort Worth - Laredo

1977 - daily, Chicago - Laredo

1977 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; tri-weekly, St. Louis - Laredo

summer 1978 & 1979 - daily, Chicago - Laredo

1979 - daily, Chicago - Laredo & Chicago - Houston

1981 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; tri-weekly, St. Louis - San Antonio

1988 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; tri-weekly, St. Louis - Houston/San San Antonio

1990 - daily, Chicago - Houston/San Antonio

1993 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; tri-weekly, St. Louis - Houston/San Antonio

1995 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; tri-weekly, St. Louis - San Antonio

1998 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; quad-weekly, St. Louis - San Antonio

2000 - daily, Chicago - San Antonio


----------



## railiner

To answer the OP, IIRC, Amtrak's total ridership for 1972, its first full year of operation, was around 16 million, rising to around 22 million in 1979. Not sure of the breakdown between various segments...


----------



## Eric S

Amtrak ridership and passenger-miles, as listed in _Amtrak: An American Story_, plus 2011 ridership:

1971 - 6.45 M

1972 - 15.85 M; 3,038 M

1973 - 16.96 M; 3,806 M

1974 - 18.67 M; 4,258 M

1975 - 17.27 M; 3,939 M

1976 - 18.05 M; 4,155 M

1977 - 18.96 M; 4,333 M

1978 - 18.92 M; 4,029 M

1979 - 21.41 M; 4,915 M

1980 - 21.22 M; 4,582 M

1981 - 20.61 M; 4,762 M

1982 - 19.04 M; 4,172 M

1983 - 19.04 M; 4,246 M

1984 - 19.94 M; 4,552 M

1985 - 20.78 M; 4,825 M

1986 - 20.33 M; 5,013 M

1987 - 20.41 M; 5,221 M

1988 - 21.50 M; 5,678 M

1989 - 21.36 M; 5,859 M

1990 - 22.19 M; 6,057 M

1991 - 22.06 M; 6,273 M

1992 - 21.35 M; 6,091 M

1993 - 22.07 M; 6,199 M

1994 - 21.84 M; 5,921 M

1995 - 20.73 M; 5,545 M

1996 - 19.61 M; 5,050 M

1997 - 20.19 M; 5,166 M

1998 - 21.09 M; 5,304 M

1999 - 21.51 M; 5,330 M

2000 - 22.52 M; 5,498 M

2001 - 23.49 M; 5,559 M

2002 - 23.41 M; 5,468 M

2003 - 24.03 M; 5,503 M

2004 - 25.05 M; 5,558 M

2005 - 25.37 M; 5,420 M

2006 - 24.39 M; 5,362 M

2007 - 25.85 M; 5,562 M

2008 - 28.72 M; 6,160 M

2009 - 27.17 M; 5,898 M

2010 - 28.72 M; 6,332 M

2011 - 30.19 M


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> As to the '79 cuts, part of it is that Amtrak's subsidy got crunched. There was also a "passengers per train" metric of some sort that was used to determine which trains got the axe, which meant that some trains that were selling out often (such as the National Limited) were cut because Amtrak lacked the equipment to expand them to meet the requirements. With that said, it is quite possible that the Floridian had suffered for long enough up until then that they were unable to get a ridership rebound in time to save the train.
> 
> 
> 
> When it comes to evaluating to cut a service, they may have looked at the numbers over the previous 2-3 complete fiscal year reports. If the National Limited had started to improve in 1978, the improvement may be too little to change the overall bottom line numbers.
> 
> The cuts as I understand it, the cuts were supposedly based on cost recovery numbers. Total ridership provides a very incomplete snapshot. Does not tell us the revenue mix - lot of short haul passengers paying less for tickets or long haul sleeper passengers providing more revenue. The biggest missing part of the picture is how much did it costs to run those trains at that time? Did the train have high crew costs because of inefficient routes or rules that resulted in more crew shifts than needed? Or high pending costs for the route because of decaying tracks and stations.
> 
> Still, looking at several of the 1977 and 1978 schedules, there are some interesting trains on there that I wonder how well they would do now (if the tracks were there, all in good condition): the Hilltopper for the interesting route, the Niagara Rainbow, the Shenandoah to Cincinnati. In many ways, in the eastern half of the US, Ohio suffered the biggest loss in passenger train service from the mid-1970s through the early 2000s.
Click to expand...

The Shenandoah would be very good if it was still here today, IMO.



Eric S said:


> Amtrak ridership and passenger-miles, as listed in _Amtrak: An American Story_, plus 2011 ridership:


Very nice information, Eric. I am very interested in the big ridership increase from 1971-1972. This might be related to Amtrak starting only in May.


----------



## Eric S

afigg said:


> The Cardinal variations over 1970s and 80s complicate any ridership comparisons. What would have been the typical consist and sleeper capacity back in those days?


There was such a great variation that I will just list a few specific configurations.

1971 - baggage, sleeper, diner-lounge, coach to Newport News; 2 coaches to Washington

1975 - baggage, sleeper, 2 coaches, lunch counter-diner-dorm to Washington; 1 coach to Newport News

1981 - baggage, sleeper, cafe, 4 coaches

1986 - baggage, diner, lounge, 2 sleepers, 7-8 coaches

1990 - baggage, slumbercoach, sleeper, diner, lounge, 4 coaches


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Cardinal variations over 1970s and 80s complicate any ridership comparisons. What would have been the typical consist and sleeper capacity back in those days?
> 
> 
> 
> There was such a great variation that I will just list a few specific configurations.
> 
> 1971 - baggage, sleeper, diner-lounge, coach to Newport News; 2 coaches to Washington
> 
> 1975 - baggage, sleeper, 2 coaches, lunch counter-diner-dorm to Washington; 1 coach to Newport News
> 
> 1981 - baggage, sleeper, cafe, 4 coaches
> 
> 1986 - baggage, diner, lounge, 2 sleepers, 7-8 coaches
> 
> 1990 - baggage, slumbercoach, sleeper, diner, lounge, 4 coaches
Click to expand...

Wow, the Cardinal was really long in 1986, with up to thirteen cars. With all trains so long back then, I am now really interested in a Amtrak fleet roster before the Heritages were dumped.

I am still waiting for old Champion and SL ridership figures. LSL and BL figures would also be interesting.


----------



## Ispolkom

Eric S said:


> 1990 - baggage, slumbercoach, sleeper, diner, lounge, 4 coaches


Yes, I remember that on my honeymoon in 1992 the City of New Orleans had some sort of dinette (I remember that the tray meals were vastly inferior to the proper diner meals on the Crescent), while the Cardinal did have a proper diner. Heritage sleepers, of course, on the all three trains, the Crescent, the City of New Orleans, and the Cardinal.


----------



## Anderson

Average passenger miles per passenger (i.e. average journey length):

1972: 191.67

1973: 224.41

1974: 228.07

1975: 228.08

1976: 230.19

1977: 228.53

1978: 212.95

1979: 229.57

1980: 215.93

1981: 231.05

1982: 219.12

1983: 223.00

1984: 228.28

1985: 232.19

1986: 246.63

1987: 255.81

1988: 264.09

1989: 274.30

1990: 272.96

1991: 284.36

1992: 285.29

1993: 280.88

1994: 271.11

1995: 267.49

1996: 257.52

1997: 255.87

1998: 251.49

1999: 247.79

2000: 244.14

2001: 236.65

2002: 233.58

2003: 229.01

2004: 221.88

2005: 213.64

2006: 219.84

2007: 215.16

2008: 214.48

2009: 217.08

2010: 220.47

Takeaway: Claytor sent LD ridership rising; Warrington seems to have done a good job of trashing it, and Gunn (I _think_) and Kummant did their best to knock it down further, though the cuts of the 90s of some of the LD trains certainly played a role here. The numbers in the 2000s are held down by the boom on the Acela (WAS-NYP is only 225 miles) and in state-supported corridors. However, towards the end there is a modest reversal of the trend (which accompanies a resurgence in the LD trains as the decade has gone on).


----------



## johnny.menhennet

I don't think I help those numbers very much  Though I'm hoping that my EMY-DEN and CHI-BOS in the last year will help balance all of my corridor ridership out.


----------



## jis

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The Shenandoah would be very good if it was still here today, IMO.


One problem is that CSX has abandoned significant portions of the route that was used by the _Shenandoah _between Cumberland and Cincinnati.

Incidentally, _Shenandoah_ carried the famous _Ampad_



afigg said:


> Still, looking at several of the 1977 and 1978 schedules, there are some interesting trains on there that I wonder how well they would do now (if the tracks were there, all in good condition): the Hilltopper for the interesting route, the Niagara Rainbow, the Shenandoah to Cincinnati.


The _Hilltopper_, while interesting, was maintained due to Congressman Harley Staggers (of _Stagger's Act_ fame) and was variously called Harley's Hornet or Harley's Comet. It was a purely political train which arrived at its destination at 12:45am and departed at 5:30am, connecting to the Cardinal 8 hours after its arrival and 12 hours before its departure at Catlettsburg/Tri-State Station. It was sort of a poster child for everything that was wrong with Amtrak, a role played later by the Chicago - Janesville train.

At least theoretically the _Cardinal _could be rerouted via the _Hilltopper_'s route between Lynchburg and Catlettsburg but it adds somewhere between 2.5 to 3.5 hours to its schedule and essentially makes it a two night service. It does however add service both east and westbound to Roanoke and Bluefield for what it is worth, and allows one to see a different part of the New River 

Speaking of the _Cardinal_, it was actually cut in 1981, but then was restored as an unfunded mandate from Congress in early 1982.



Eric S said:


> 1998 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; quad-weekly, St. Louis - San Antonio


This is from fuzzy memory, but was this also the period when there was 4 times a week service between San Antonio and Los Angeles? Or was it just after the _Texas Eagle_ went daily, thanks to Senator Hutchinson? I seem to recall there was a brief period when there was a fourth frequency between San Antonio and Los Angeles.



Anderson said:


> Takeaway: Claytor sent LD ridership rising; Warrington seems to have done a good job of trashing it, and Gunn (I _think_) and Kummant did their best to knock it down further, though the cuts of the 90s of some of the LD trains certainly played a role here. The numbers in the 2000s are held down by the boom on the Acela (WAS-NYP is only 225 miles) and in state-supported corridors. However, towards the end there is a modest reversal of the trend (which accompanies a resurgence in the LD trains as the decade has gone on).


It would be interesting to see what the corresponding revenue per passenger mile works out to for each year.


----------



## Eric S

jis said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1998 - daily, Chicago - St. Louis; quad-weekly, St. Louis - San Antonio
> 
> 
> 
> This is from fuzzy memory, but was this also the period when there was 4 times a week service between San Antonio and Los Angeles? Or was it just after the _Texas Eagle_ went daily, thanks to Senator Hutchinson? I seem to recall there was a brief period when there was a fourth frequency between San Antonio and Los Angeles.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's correct, when the _Texas Eagle_ went to 4 days/week south of St. Louis, on the one of the four days when the _Sunset Limited_ did not operate, the _Texas Eagle_ provided the fourth weekly frequency between San Antonio and Los Angeles. I ignored the Los Angeles cars in my_ Texas Eagle_ descriptions, as I did not have complete information as to when those cars operated over the years.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anderson said:


> Average passenger miles per passenger (i.e. average journey length):
> 
> 1992: 285.29


Looks like 1992 had the highest passenger miles per passenger. Despite the ridership increases, the LD ridership is not that high.



jis said:


> The _Hilltopper_, while interesting, was maintained due to Congressman Harley Staggers (of _Stagger's Act_ fame) and was variously called Harley's Hornet or Harley's Comet. It was a purely political train which arrived at its destination at 12:45am and departed at 5:30am, connecting to the Cardinal 8 hours after its arrival and 12 hours before its departure at Catlettsburg/Tri-State Station. It was sort of a poster child for everything that was wrong with Amtrak, a role played later by the Chicago - Janesville train.


Why in the world would somebody run a passenger train to Catlettsburg? That just has no practical reason.

What is the Niagara Rainbow?


----------



## jis

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why in the world would somebody run a passenger train to Catlettsburg? That just has no practical reason.
> 
> What is the Niagara Rainbow?


One runs a train to Catlettsburg just because one can force it to be run by threatening budget approval for the rest of the system if it is not run.

The _Niagara Rainbow_ was for a period a train that ran from New York to Detroit running through Canada between Buffalo and Detroit. It was originally introduce sometime around late 1974 as an extension of the _Empire State Express_ to Detroit funded by Michigan and New York states, and then the name was changed around 1976. It was a day train so it carried no sleepers. It left New York Grand Central at 8:30am arriving Detroit at 10:05pm and left Detroit at 7:45am arriving back at NYG at 9:50pm. See the 1975 New York - Buffalo - Detroit Timetable (see Empire State Express in that timetable). Notice that there was no _Maple Leaf_ yet. Also notice that there was no Niagara Falls service either, and the connecting service to Toronto ran on a close approximation of the route that would need to be brought back if the _Whirlpool Bridge_ actually gets abandoned by CN without Amtrak/VIA/New York/Ontario taking it over.

It was cut back to Niagara Falls in 1979 when both New York state and Michigan withdrew support for it.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> It was cut back to Niagara Falls in 1979 when both New York state and Michigan withdrew support for it.


What happened after that? Did it get renamed the Maple Leaf?


----------



## jis

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was cut back to Niagara Falls in 1979 when both New York state and Michigan withdrew support for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Wht happened after that? Did it get renamed the Maple Leaf?
Click to expand...

No. It was still called the _Niagara Rainbow_ and continued to run to Niagara Falls. The _Maple Leaf_ was introduced as the first joint venture between Amtrak and VIA in 1981.

There are a couple of other interesting things to note in the timetables for the Empire Corridor circa 1974-75.

In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the _Montrealer _and one of the Silvers (81/82 _Silver Star_) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no _Lake Shore Limited_. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the _Silver Star_, the _Silver Meteor_ and the _Champion_. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the _Miamian _which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The _Silver Meteor_ apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.


----------



## Anderson

I've wondered about rerouting the Cardinal via LYH/ROA, actually, for the very reasons that you mentioned (plus getting it off of the BBRR, which has just been a problem and which IIRC is one of the stumbling blocks to daily service). However, assuming that the train starts in NYP instead of BOS, the extra hours would actually _help_ the train by pushing the Cincinatti hours later in the morning. Not only that, but it would also likely provide the "reverse" service for Lynchburg and Charlottesville that is greatly desired...honestly, such a train could probably operate with a smaller operating loss than the Cardinal currently does between CIN-IND-CHI business and ROA-LYH-CVS-WAS-NYP business (and might even need an extra coach or two ROA-NYP if those intermediate markets keep growing).

Also of interest...the Hilltopper had 66/67 in the schedule, and IIRC it went via Richmond at one point or another (with a connecting Ambus to NFK). Basically, from what I can tell it was cut back to become the Twilight Shoreliner.

Edit: I figured out what the magic "cut" metric was for '79: Passenger miles per train mile.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Also of interest...the Hilltopper had 66/67 in the schedule, and IIRC it went via Richmond at one point or another (with a connecting Ambus to NFK). Basically, from what I can tell it was cut back to become the Twilight Shoreliner.


Yes. The _Hilltopper _ran Boston - New York - Washington - Richmond - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Bluefield - Catlettsburg at least for part of its existence. The plugging together of 66/67 with the _Hilltopper _was a desperate attempt to make the numbers for the _Hilltopper _look good. 

For another few more hours added to the schedule, you could run the _Cardinal _that way too :lol:


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also of interest...the Hilltopper had 66/67 in the schedule, and IIRC it went via Richmond at one point or another (with a connecting Ambus to NFK). Basically, from what I can tell it was cut back to become the Twilight Shoreliner.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. The _Hilltopper _ran Boston - New York - Washington - Richmond - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Bluefield - Catlettsburg at least for part of its existence. The plugging together of 66/67 with the _Hilltopper _was a desperate attempt to make the numbers for the _Hilltopper _look good.
> 
> For another few more hours added to the schedule, you could run the _Cardinal _that way too :lol:
Click to expand...

lol...that would probably be a bad idea. In the long run, though, connecting with a hypothetical TDX at either Roanoke or Lynchburg might be worthwhile (and might actually restore the Hampton Roads-to-the-west link if interest and ridership could be found for a set of through cars).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the _Montrealer _and one of the Silvers (81/82 _Silver Star_) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no _Lake Shore Limited_. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the _Silver Star_, the _Silver Meteor_ and the _Champion_. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the _Miamian _which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The _Silver Meteor_ apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.


The through sleeper from MTR-MIA was recently suggested on a thread here. I had no idea it actually ran before.

I think the LSL was introduced in 1975, just after your timetable.

The old SM is very interesting because it was very similar to the Orange Blossom Special. I think I already have the Champion ridership resolved because the cars were just merged onto the SS/SM.

Now I am still looking for old LSL, BL, and SL ridership stats 1971-1979.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Yes. The _Hilltopper _ran Boston - New York - Washington - Richmond - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Bluefield - Catlettsburg at least for part of its existence. The plugging together of 66/67 with the _Hilltopper _was a desperate attempt to make the numbers for the _Hilltopper _look good.
> 
> For another few more hours added to the schedule, you could run the _Cardinal _that way too :lol:


That was an, umm, _interesting_ route. Catlettsburg KY is not exactly a town that comes to mind as a logical place to terminate a train route. :blink:

edit: word order


----------



## Anderson

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the _Montrealer _and one of the Silvers (81/82 _Silver Star_) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no _Lake Shore Limited_. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the _Silver Star_, the _Silver Meteor_ and the _Champion_. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the _Miamian _which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The _Silver Meteor_ apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> The through sleeper from MTR-MIA was recently suggested on a thread here. I had no idea it actually ran before.
> 
> I think the LSL was introduced in 1975, just after your timetable.
> 
> The old SM is very interesting because it was very similar to the Orange Blossom Special. I think I already have the Champion ridership resolved because the cars were just merged onto the SS/SM.
> 
> Now I am still looking for old LSL, BL, and SL ridership stats 1971-1979.
Click to expand...

Most of the ideas I suggest draw on things that have happened before. In a sense, what I tend to kick around focuses on getting back as much of that which has been lost over the years more than anything. Yes, maybe getting it back a bit faster or over a different routing, but still getting it back.


----------



## Mackensen

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> In 1974 there was a through Sleeper from Montreal to Florida via the _Montrealer _and one of the Silvers (81/82 _Silver Star_) with a 3 hour layover in Washington DC both ways. And there was no _Lake Shore Limited_. There were three daily trains to Florida from New York, the _Silver Star_, the _Silver Meteor_ and the _Champion_. In addition there was a fourth New York Florida train called the _Miamian _which ran Dec 15 to April 7. The _Silver Meteor_ apparently ran non-stop between Richmond and Savannah, at least as far as commercial stops were concerned. Of course I am sure they changed crew possibly once or twice between the two.
> 
> 
> 
> The through sleeper from MTR-MIA was recently suggested on a thread here. I had no idea it actually ran before.
> 
> I think the LSL was introduced in 1975, just after your timetable.
> 
> The old SM is very interesting because it was very similar to the Orange Blossom Special. I think I already have the Champion ridership resolved because the cars were just merged onto the SS/SM.
> 
> Now I am still looking for old LSL, BL, and SL ridership stats 1971-1979.
Click to expand...

The modern Lake Shore Limited's first run is October 31, 1975, with both New York and Boston sections. One thing to consider with the LSL is that it drew off patronage from the Broadway Limited, but I don't have hard figures for that.


----------



## Anderson

Swadian,

Do you have actual numbers on the Silvers? I'd be very curious to see the status of the Florida service from before 2000.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anderson said:


> Swadian,
> 
> Do you have actual numbers on the Silvers? I'd be very curious to see the status of the Florida service from before 2000.


Sorry, I do not. Looks like we both are interested about the NYP-MIA figures before the introduction of Viewliners. When Viewliners were introduced, there were apparantely not enough Viewliners to replace all the Heritages so the NYP-MIA trains took consist reductions.


----------



## railiner

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. The _Hilltopper _ran Boston - New York - Washington - Richmond - Petersburg - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Bluefield - Catlettsburg at least for part of its existence. The plugging together of 66/67 with the _Hilltopper _was a desperate attempt to make the numbers for the _Hilltopper _look good.
> 
> For another few more hours added to the schedule, you could run the _Cardinal _that way too :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> That was an, umm, _interesting_ route. Catlettsburg KY is exactly not a town that comes to mind as a logical place to terminate a train route. :blink:
Click to expand...

The reason the Hilltopper ran to Catlettsburg/Tri-State Station, is that is the point near Kenova, WVa where the C&O (Cardinal), and N&W (HIlltopper) routes crossed on their way towards Cincinnati. So while Catlettsburg is an unlikely terminal point, it at least provided a connection, albeit a poor one, for Hilltopper route passengers to continue west.

Earlier, the N&W Amtrak train, the Mountaineer, did go all the way to Cincy, and IIRC carried cars to and from the Cardinal to Chicago. There was a time when you could also connect west at Cincy from/to the Shenandoah which ran on the shorter B&O route from Washington.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

As part of my effort to determine SL "retro" ridership, I found these photos to see how long the consists used to be:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=95094&nseq=7 - March 1978 (low season), before Superliners

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=301090&nseq=13 - July 1978 (high season), before Superliners

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=179674&nseq=15 - 1989, after Superliners

I would apprieciate anybody's help in identifying those railcars.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Guys, I just found a really long Coast Starlight from July 1974. Looks like sixteen cars, longer than today's CS, but probably less capacity because the 10-6 Sleepers carryfar less than today's Superliner Sleepers.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=63526&nseq=3


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

For NYP-CHI trains, trying to use consists to have some idea of ridership:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=102139&nseq=23 - LSL, 10 cars, same number with other pictures

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=352409&nseq=52 - BL, 15 cars, much longer than LSL, cannot confirm if this is standard consist

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=325085&nseq=6 - BL, can count 13 cars, more cars may not be in view

NYP-MIA:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=356220&nseq=1 - Best pic. I could find about the Champion. Can't count cars.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=356220&nseq=1 - Old Silver Star, 12 cars, somebody remarked "usually 16 to 18 cars".

Finally, could someone please tell me what the Blue Ridge was? I found a picture.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=319213&nseq=2 - BR, at least six Amfleet Is, cannot see baggage car, don't know about this train at all.


----------



## Anderson

There's somewhere on here that I recall seeing a video of one of the Silvers in Orlando. It was something like ten coaches, two cafes, five or six sleepers, a diner, and a twin unit diner.


----------



## afigg

Anderson said:


> There's somewhere on here that I recall seeing a video of one of the Silvers in Orlando. It was something like ten coaches, two cafes, five or six sleepers, a diner, and a twin unit diner.


But that could be a peak of the peak season Silver. Need to get real numbers on the annual ridership with at least a breakdown into coach only and sleeper numbers for all the NEC to Florida trains.

One thing is that I think Florida travel patterns have changed since the 1970s. With the expansion of Orlando, Disney World, and resorts, there is probably a lot more summer tourist travel. Sure there was summer tourist travel to FL back in the 60s and 70s, but winter was the big season back then. Now it is more year round with a winter peak and a July-August peak. To get a better feel for Amtrak ridership to FL back in the 1970s, monthly or seasonal breakdowns would be useful. A lot harder to find though.

As for the Viewliner sleepers, remember the order was originally to be for 100 sleeper cars. Because of budget cuts, 50 was all Amtrak got.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Swadian Hardcore said:


> For NYP-CHI trains, trying to use consists to have some idea of ridership:
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=102139&nseq=23 - LSL, 10 cars, same number with other pictures
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=352409&nseq=52 - BL, 15 cars, much longer than LSL, cannot confirm if this is standard consist
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=325085&nseq=6 - BL, can count 13 cars, more cars may not be in view
> 
> NYP-MIA:
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=356220&nseq=1 - Best pic. I could find about the Champion. Can't count cars.
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=356220&nseq=1 - Old Silver Star, 12 cars, somebody remarked "usually 16 to 18 cars".
> 
> Finally, could someone please tell me what the Blue Ridge was? I found a picture.
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=319213&nseq=2 - BR, at least six Amfleet Is, cannot see baggage car, don't know about this train at all.


The Blue Ridge was a Washington to Parkersburg, WV train. It was the first train to be started at the request of the West Virginia delegation (Byrd and Staggers). For a while the UA Turbotrain was used on this route. The train was later exended to Cincinnati as the Shenandoan via B&O's old National Limited Route. It carried an Amfleet coach with 2 sleeper rooms as an experiment. It was discontinued in 1979 or 1981. The Capitol Limited uses the same route from Washington to Cumberland. Some of the line from Cumberland to Cincinnati has been abandoned.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's somewhere on here that I recall seeing a video of one of the Silvers in Orlando. It was something like ten coaches, two cafes, five or six sleepers, a diner, and a twin unit diner.
> 
> 
> 
> But that could be a peak of the peak season Silver. Need to get real numbers on the annual ridership with at least a breakdown into coach only and sleeper numbers for all the NEC to Florida trains.
> 
> One thing is that I think Florida travel patterns have changed since the 1970s. With the expansion of Orlando, Disney World, and resorts, there is probably a lot more summer tourist travel. Sure there was summer tourist travel to FL back in the 60s and 70s, but winter was the big season back then. Now it is more year round with a winter peak and a July-August peak. To get a better feel for Amtrak ridership to FL back in the 1970s, monthly or seasonal breakdowns would be useful. A lot harder to find though.
> 
> As for the Viewliner sleepers, remember the order was originally to be for 100 sleeper cars. Because of budget cuts, 50 was all Amtrak got.
Click to expand...

I think it may also be worth noting that the present-day Auto Train has probably pulled a lot of riders off of the Silvers. Combined, the three Florida trains (SS, SM, and AT) run well over a million riders, and adding in the Palmetto puts you just over 1.25 million for last year.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jphjaxfl said:


> The Blue Ridge was a Washington to Parkersburg, WV train. It was the first train to be started at the request of the West Virginia delegation (Byrd and Staggers). For a while the UA Turbotrain was used on this route. The train was later exended to Cincinnati as the Shenandoan via B&O's old National Limited Route. It carried an Amfleet coach with 2 sleeper rooms as an experiment. It was discontinued in 1979 or 1981. The Capitol Limited uses the same route from Washington to Cumberland. Some of the line from Cumberland to Cincinnati has been abandoned.


Why did they cancel it? Not enough funding?

If the AT drew passengers off the other trains, then Florida ridership may not have taken as big a hit as I initially thought. The SL was also not that long after all, and the CS with sixteen cars was only single-level.

I think that the biggest problem right now would be the LSL/BL, because those trains could/can only use single-level cars. I think NYP/BOS-CHI used to have 25 cars a day, 15 plus 10, but now that is down to 13-14. The Viewliners can carry more but I suspect that total capacity from NYP-CHI has gone down. Good thing is, Amtrak is going to add through cars to the Penny and probably add more cars to the LSL.

However, I still cannot calculete how much LD ridership used to be without knowing all the LD ridership stats. I will try my best to find out but it will be hard.

Thank you for your time and effort in this thread.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> _Amtrak in the Heartland_ by Craig Sanders details the changes in Amtrak's various routes/trains which serve and have served the "Heartland," which he essentially defines as any trains operating to, through, or from the Midwest (basically all Chicago trains plus a few corridors that are appendages of Chicago trains). In the book, some ridership figures are listed, but unfortunately it does not list every train every year. With that in mind, here is what it has (with 2011 figures for comparison):


Eric, do you have the stats for the SFZ/CZ? Looks like this SFZ has 14 cars: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=349331&nseq=11, but this one only has 10 cars: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=59923&nseq=12


----------



## Eric S

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Amtrak in the Heartland_ by Craig Sanders details the changes in Amtrak's various routes/trains which serve and have served the "Heartland," which he essentially defines as any trains operating to, through, or from the Midwest (basically all Chicago trains plus a few corridors that are appendages of Chicago trains). In the book, some ridership figures are listed, but unfortunately it does not list every train every year. With that in mind, here is what it has (with 2011 figures for comparison):
> 
> 
> 
> Eric, do you have the stats for the SFZ/CZ? Looks like this SFZ has 14 cars: http://www.railpictu...=349331&nseq=11, but this one only has 10 cars: http://www.railpictu...d=59923&nseq=12
Click to expand...

The only numbers in that book I have are:

*California Zephyr*

1994 - 379,000

1995 - 322,000

1996 - 224,000

2003 - 292,000

2004 - 335,764

*Desert Wind*

1995 - 120,000

*Pioneer*

1977 - 68.566

1995 - 89,000

*Rio Grande Zephyr*

1971 - 19,809

1973 - 30,750


----------



## afigg

As an FYI covering the past 11 years, these are the ridership numbers by category from Amtrak press releases after the end of the past 2 fiscal years announcing their record breaking year for ridership (and ticket revenue). It should be pointed out that the total numbers for FY00 through FY06 are less than the total numbers provided for each year in the Amtrak 40 year anniversary book. The difference for FY2000 to FY2005 averages around 1.6 to 1.7 million which has to be the Clocker service. The difference for FY06 is only 85,100 and the Amtrak Clocker service was terminated and turned over to NJ Transit in late October, 2006 shortly after the start of the fiscal year.

By dropping the clocker numbers from press release history, Amtrak was making their growth numbers look better, but it does make the list an apples to apples comparison, so I think it was valid for them to do that.



Code:


FY  	Total   	NEC     	Corridors	LD
FY00	20,992,485	8,398,028	8,577,490	4,016,967
FY01	21,812,224	8,893,657	9,040,248	3,878,319
FY02	21,669,207	9,140,708	8,911,852	3,616,647
FY03	22,333,180	8,999,933	9,564,307	3,768,940
FY04	23,362,729	9,464,262	10,004,304	3,894,163
FY05	24,031,170	9,586,180	10,591,684	3,853,306
FY06	24,306,965	9,431,279	11,144,430	3,731,256
FY07	25,847,531	10,035,012	11,993,252	3,819,267
FY08	28,716,407	10,897,852	13,648,196	4,170,359
FY09	27,167,014	9,946,027	13,022,237	4,198,750
FY10	28,716,857	10,375,209	13,866,804	4,474,844
FY11	30,186,733	10,899,889	14,765,011	4,521,833

It would be interesting to get this breakdown going back to 1972 or 1973, but I don't have those numbers. What the table makes clear is that the major growth in the past 11 years has been in state supported and short distance corridors. The LD trains have been growing with the low point in FY02 since FY00. Guess I could post the ticket revenue breakdown too because that shows the impact of the Acelas on the revenue.


----------



## jphjaxfl

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Blue Ridge was a Washington to Parkersburg, WV train. It was the first train to be started at the request of the West Virginia delegation (Byrd and Staggers). For a while the UA Turbotrain was used on this route. The train was later exended to Cincinnati as the Shenandoan via B&O's old National Limited Route. It carried an Amfleet coach with 2 sleeper rooms as an experiment. It was discontinued in 1979 or 1981. The Capitol Limited uses the same route from Washington to Cumberland. Some of the line from Cumberland to Cincinnati has been abandoned.
> 
> 
> 
> Why did they cancel it? Not enough funding?
> 
> If the AT drew passengers off the other trains, then Florida ridership may not have taken as big a hit as I initially thought. The SL was also not that long after all, and the CS with sixteen cars was only single-level.
> 
> I think that the biggest problem right now would be the LSL/BL, because those trains could/can only use single-level cars. I think NYP/BOS-CHI used to have 25 cars a day, 15 plus 10, but now that is down to 13-14. The Viewliners can carry more but I suspect that total capacity from NYP-CHI has gone down. Good thing is, Amtrak is going to add through cars to the Penny and probably add more cars to the LSL.
> 
> However, I still cannot calculete how much LD ridership used to be without knowing all the LD ridership stats. I will try my best to find out but it will be hard.
> 
> Thank you for your time and effort in this thread.
Click to expand...

The Shenandoan was cancelled due to lack of patronage. It ran on the same schedule as the Cardinal. I remember being in the Cincinnati Station (the Amtrak built station not the Terminal) The Cardinal arrived and departed, then the Shenandoan departed. It carried two Amfleet coaches, one had 2 sleeping rooms plus an Amcafe. The Cardinal had a sleeper and full dining service. the train was well patronized from Cincinnati to Chillicothe where Ohio University is located and then from Cumberland to Washington. There were only 5 passengers traveling all the way through from Cincinnati to Washington. The train was operated at the mandate of the WV delegation. The Capitol Ltd now covers the Cumberland-Washington portion of the route. CSX desired to and has abandoned parts of the route from Cumberland to Cincinnati. The Shenandoan was a political train.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> The only numbers in that book I have are:
> 
> *California Zephyr*
> 
> 1994 - 379,000
> 
> 1995 - 322,000
> 
> 1996 - 224,000
> 
> 2003 - 292,000
> 
> 2004 - 335,764
> 
> *Desert Wind*
> 
> 1995 - 120,000
> 
> *Pioneer*
> 
> 1977 - 68.566
> 
> 1995 - 89,000
> 
> *Rio Grande Zephyr*
> 
> 1971 - 19,809
> 
> 1973 - 30,750


OK, nice to know. Looks like the CZ had a low in 1996.

Right now, does anybody have the LSL, BL, SM, SS, Champ., SL, and/or CS ridership datum 1971-1979? Still waiting, sorry if I'm getting annoying.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Swadian Hardcore said:


> OK, nice to know. Looks like the CZ had a low in 1996.
> 
> Right now, does anybody have the LSL, BL, SM, SS, Champ., SL, and/or CS ridership datum 1971-1979? Still waiting, sorry if I'm getting annoying.


Nobody knows anything about any of the above lines?


----------



## Anderson

I think the Zephyr's 1996 low was a side-effect of the Charlie Foxtrot that was less-than-daily service out west (for at least part of the year).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anderson said:


> I think the Zephyr's 1996 low was a side-effect of the Charlie Foxtrot that was less-than-daily service out west (for at least part of the year).


What is a Charlie Foxtrot?


----------



## MrFSS

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Zephyr's 1996 low was a side-effect of the Charlie Foxtrot that was less-than-daily service out west (for at least part of the year).
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Charlie Foxtrot?
Click to expand...

Google it - it is a euphemism for another term that can't be mentioned on the forum.


----------



## afigg

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Zephyr's 1996 low was a side-effect of the Charlie Foxtrot that was less-than-daily service out west (for at least part of the year).
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Charlie Foxtrot?
Click to expand...

You should google it because we can't provide a complete explanation on a PG rated forum. :giggle: For example, here is the wiktionary link without further comment.


----------



## Nathanael

George Harris said:


> this gets around to another thing: money has got to be spent on track. Note that somehow by political manipulation there has been a near complete rail relay plus a lot of other work on the Vermonter route north of Springfield, Mass. There are other places where there would be a bigger bang per mile for your buck. Kansas City ot Albuquerque would be one. In years past much of that was 100 mph territory. It is only track that keeps that from happening again. The Memphis to Jackson, Miss. "Grenada District" formerly used by the Panama Liited would have been another. That may be partly abandoned by now, but in years past run times Memphis to Jackson under 4 hours were the norm.


Vermont state government wants better track -- Kansas and Mississippi state governments don't. That's why Vermont gets improved track and Kansas and Mississippi don't.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Eric S said:


> _Amtrak in the Heartland_ by Craig Sanders details the changes in Amtrak's various routes/trains which serve and have served the "Heartland," which he essentially defines as any trains operating to, through, or from the Midwest (basically all Chicago trains plus a few corridors that are appendages of Chicago trains). In the book, some ridership figures are listed, but unfortunately it does not list every train every year. With that in mind, here is what it has (with 2011 figures for comparison):
> 
> *Cardinal*
> 
> 1975 - 111,965
> 
> 1976 - 129,294
> 
> 2011 - 110,923
> 
> *Empire Builder*
> 
> 1973 - 363,100
> 
> 1974 - 385,300
> 
> 1975 - 324,639
> 
> 1976 - 311,576
> 
> 1977 - 297,180
> 
> 2011 - 469,167
> 
> *Floridian*
> 
> 1974 - 157,198
> 
> 1975 - 139,670
> 
> 1976 - 153,054
> 
> 1977 - 146,500
> 
> *Inter-American/Eagle/Texas Eagle*
> 
> 1974 - 48,851
> 
> 1975 - 40,476
> 
> 1977 - 144,477
> 
> 2011 - 299,508
> 
> *National Limited*
> 
> 1975 - 163,422
> 
> 1976 - 179,213
> 
> 1977 - 191,692
> 
> *North Coast Hiawatha*
> 
> 1973 - 227,200
> 
> 1974 - 280,800
> 
> 1975 - 208,809
> 
> 1976 - 191,615
> 
> 1977 - 205,642
> 
> *Panama Limited/City of New Orleans*
> 
> 1974 - 195,899
> 
> 1975 - 174,014
> 
> 2011 - 233,318
> 
> *Super Chief/Southwest Limited/Southwest Chief*
> 
> 1974 - 327,000, with a note that most years in the 1970s hovered around 280,000
> 
> 2011 - 354,912
> 
> *Texas Chief/Lone Star*
> 
> 1973 - 257,800
> 
> 1974 - 277,760
> 
> 1975 - 255,881
> 
> 1976 - 274,448
> 
> Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.


Why aren't the BL, LSL, and CZ not listed? They were Chicago area trains too.

The Lone Star was way more popular than the Inter-American. Interesting that the Lone Star was the main Texas train from east of Chicago (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19770501&item=0052) leaving at 4:30pm as opposed to 8:35am so that might have helped (plus Houston has a higher population than San Antonio). This clearly shows they killed the wrong train (if you look at my PM-TM chart before the 1979 cuts (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66476-passenger-miles-per-train-mile-metric/) the I-A was dead last among LD trains (even worse than Byrd Crap) while the LS was a lot higher. The TE looks pretty healthy now but the TE in 2011 wasn't that much higher than the Lone Star in 1976. I still don't understand why the I-A was kept over the LS. Both served Texas (as well as Illinois and Missouri). The differences state wise were Arkansas for the I-A and Kansas and Oklahoma for the LS and city wise St. Louis, Little Rock, Austin, San Antonio for the I-A vs. Kansas City, Wichita, Oklahoma City, and Houston. The only explanation from a Senator standpoint would be Arkansas. I'd be shocked if nepotism weren't involved but it's harder to explain than the other case.

The Floridian was a surprising stinker. Florida was just as far away as Seattle but not only did one Seattle train top the Floridian but two did and it's not like there weren't intermediate points either.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> 'Swadian Hardcore' said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why in the world would somebody run a passenger train to Catlettsburg? That just has no practical reason.
> 
> What is the Niagara Rainbow?
> 
> 
> 
> One runs a train to Catlettsburg just because one can force it to be run by threatening budget approval for the rest of the system if it is not run.
Click to expand...




jis said:


> Speaking of the _Cardinal_, it was actually cut in 1981, but then was restored as an unfunded mandate from Congress in early 1982.



aka Nepotism.



Anderson said:


> Edit: I figured out what the magic "cut" metric was for '79: Passenger miles per train mile.


with some exceptions thrown in...

Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Let's learn from the mistakes of '79 and make sure they don't happen again.


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## Ryan

You seriously brought back a 5 year old thread to peddle more of your ****?

We get it. Now stop.


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## Anderson

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Amtrak in the Heartland_ by Craig Sanders details the changes in Amtrak's various routes/trains which serve and have served the "Heartland," which he essentially defines as any trains operating to, through, or from the Midwest (basically all Chicago trains plus a few corridors that are appendages of Chicago trains). In the book, some ridership figures are listed, but unfortunately it does not list every train every year. With that in mind, here is what it has (with 2011 figures for comparison):
> 
> *Cardinal*
> 
> 1975 - 111,965
> 
> 1976 - 129,294
> 
> 2011 - 110,923
> 
> *Empire Builder*
> 
> 1973 - 363,100
> 
> 1974 - 385,300
> 
> 1975 - 324,639
> 
> 1976 - 311,576
> 
> 1977 - 297,180
> 
> 2011 - 469,167
> 
> *Floridian*
> 
> 1974 - 157,198
> 
> 1975 - 139,670
> 
> 1976 - 153,054
> 
> 1977 - 146,500
> 
> *Inter-American/Eagle/Texas Eagle*
> 
> 1974 - 48,851
> 
> 1975 - 40,476
> 
> 1977 - 144,477
> 
> 2011 - 299,508
> 
> *National Limited*
> 
> 1975 - 163,422
> 
> 1976 - 179,213
> 
> 1977 - 191,692
> 
> *North Coast Hiawatha*
> 
> 1973 - 227,200
> 
> 1974 - 280,800
> 
> 1975 - 208,809
> 
> 1976 - 191,615
> 
> 1977 - 205,642
> 
> *Panama Limited/City of New Orleans*
> 
> 1974 - 195,899
> 
> 1975 - 174,014
> 
> 2011 - 233,318
> 
> *Super Chief/Southwest Limited/Southwest Chief*
> 
> 1974 - 327,000, with a note that most years in the 1970s hovered around 280,000
> 
> 2011 - 354,912
> 
> *Texas Chief/Lone Star*
> 
> 1973 - 257,800
> 
> 1974 - 277,760
> 
> 1975 - 255,881
> 
> 1976 - 274,448
> 
> Hopefully this it at least somewhat helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> Why aren't the BL, LSL, and CZ not listed? They were Chicago area trains too.
> 
> The Lone Star was way more popular than the Inter-American. Interesting that the Lone Star was the main Texas train from east of Chicago (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19770501&item=0052) leaving at 4:30pm as opposed to 8:35am so that might have helped (plus Houston has a higher population than San Antonio). This clearly shows they killed the wrong train (if you look at my PM-TM chart before the 1979 cuts (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66476-passenger-miles-per-train-mile-metric/) the I-A was dead last among LD trains (even worse than Byrd Crap) while the LS was a lot higher. The TE looks pretty healthy now but the TE in 2011 wasn't that much higher than the Lone Star in 1976. I still don't understand why the I-A was kept over the LS. Both served Texas (as well as Illinois and Missouri). The differences state wise were Arkansas for the I-A and Kansas and Oklahoma for the LS and city wise St. Louis, Little Rock, Austin, San Antonio for the I-A vs. Kansas City, Wichita, Oklahoma City, and Houston. The only explanation from a Senator standpoint would be Arkansas. I'd be shocked if nepotism weren't involved but it's harder to explain than the other case.
> 
> The Floridian was a surprising stinker. Florida was just as far away as Seattle but not only did one Seattle train top the Floridian but two did and it's not like there weren't intermediate points either.
Click to expand...

Look at the Chicago times for the relevant trains in the timetables and you'll see that most of the cut trains misconnected in Chicago. It wasn't the times in Texas that were at issue...it's that if you took the Lone Star you could connect to/from most of the other system trains while I'm not sure you could reliably make anything other than a stray weekend Hiawatha Service from the Inter-American. The trains that got cut seem to have primarily been ones where you couldn't make solid connections for chunks of the 1970s.

To their credit, it looks like towards the end Amtrak was improving on this front (again, look at the Inter-American/Eagle: No small part of that spike in ridership is due to the train's times in CHI getting improved to allow connections)...but it was too little too late for some trains (which presumably didn't have a chance to build up their ridership bases before the ax fell).


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Anderson said:


> Look at the Chicago times for the relevant trains in the timetables and you'll see that most of the cut trains misconnected in Chicago. It wasn't the times in Texas that were at issue...it's that if you took the Lone Star you could connect to/from most of the other system trains while I'm not sure you could reliably make anything other than a stray weekend Hiawatha Service from the Inter-American. The trains that got cut seem to have primarily been ones where you couldn't make solid connections for chunks of the 1970s.
> 
> To their credit, it looks like towards the end Amtrak was improving on this front (again, look at the Inter-American/Eagle: No small part of that spike in ridership is due to the train's times in CHI getting improved to allow connections)...but it was too little too late for some trains (which presumably didn't have a chance to build up their ridership bases before the ax fell).


Here's a chart of the Chicago connections from a 1979 timetable: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790429&item=0033

You can argue ridership for the Lone Star was inflated by the ability to connect to the East and if you switched the schedules then the LS's ridership would go down while the I-A's ridership would go up. But there was a big difference here. The TE now also does benefit from less competition just like the EB without the NCH although ridership is always handicapped by capacity (but then fares go up with fewer options like the LSL right now). I still think having choices on schedule as opposed to two trains chasing each other's tails (SM and SS, LSL and CL) is better for passengers in giving them choices. Back then the BL and LSL were within a half hour going east but westbound the BL arrived into Chicago in the morning while the LSL arrived in the afternoon. Damn the host railroads!

It's interesting the Floridian was perfect in terms of connections from the West Coast, leaving late from Chicago and arriving early into Chicago from Florida. Then again Disney World didn't open until I believe 1971 so it might not have been as popular as it is today. I still can't believe more people from Chicago would want to spend two days traveling to Seattle than two days traveling to Florida. Then again a large portion of the US on the East Coast wouldn't have used the Floridian because they have NEC-Florida trains. You can say how "lousy" or slow a specific train is but I still say a bad train is better than no train. You think I get cranky because I have to transfer to get to Chicago? How about passengers from west of Chicago now having to make TWO transfers? I still hate the fact that to get from Texas to Florida or California to Florida you have to go all the way north to Chicago to go south (of course back in the 70's the SL was only LAX-NOL like it is today).

It's impossible to predict population 40 years from now like it was 40 years ago to predict the population of today. But based on recent population, the Floridian cancellation cost Amtrak two of the largest markets (Louisville and Nashville) that don't have Amtrak now, the National Limited cost Amtrak Columbus, and the Lone Star cost them Wichita and Oklahoma City (they did get OKC back but it only gets them to Ft. Worth.

I think the Texas Eagle split during the 90's was the best solution to give all four of the biggest markets (Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin) a one seat ride to Chicago as opposed to Houston not having one today.

If I had to choose between Floridian or Sunset East coming back (assuming extension of CONO for one seat ride Chicago-Florida), SL East would help out southern travelers going to Florida (although they also have to fix the east-west connections in NOL to make it more pleasant) while Floridian gets Louisville and Nashville back in the mix. I would say if there was a same day connection in NOL I'd favor the SL East. But if you pretty much have to go through Chicago to avoid an overnight stay, I'd say Floridian.

In reality, the National Limited really only helped KCY, STL, and IND get to the East Coast (and Columbus to get anywhere). Columbus is certainly valuable but I wonder how big a deal it is that you can't get from the NEC to KCY or STL. Certainly not being on a Chicago route doomed them. Then, I still say Amtrak f'ed up Columbus (and Cincinnati) on A-Day when they got rid of the Cincinnati Limited. Could you imagine a James Whitcomb Riley-Cincinnati Limited (going through Columbus) today?

Then again, Amtrak should make an attempt to follow population trends and at least try to get service back to high populated areas. The US of 2017 isn't the same as the US of 1977, Amtrak should change with them to better serve the US. Unless they could care less about serving the US. Seriously, Catlettsburg?


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## neroden

A pertitent point is that ticket yields were *way* lower in the 1970s. Costs.... weren't lower. So this has to be considered when looking at ridership.


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## Thirdrail7

OMG!!!!!! It's finally happened!!! It took time, but Philly Amtrak Fan clearly understands. in his own words (which will be saved for prosperity, of course)

<snip>



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I still can't believe more people from Chicago would want to spend two days traveling to Seattle than two days traveling to Florida. Then again a large portion of the US on the East Coast wouldn't have used the Floridian because they have NEC-Florida trains. *You can say how "lousy" or slow a specific train is but I still say a bad train is better than no train. *You think I get cranky because I have to transfer to get to Chicago? How about passengers from west of Chicago now having to make TWO transfers? I still hate the fact that to get from Texas to Florida or California to Florida you have to go all the way north to Chicago to go south (of course back in the 70's the SL was only LAX-NOL like it is today).



Senator Byrd may now rest in peace, knowing that you have finally see the light and understands what he did. A train is often better the no train because once it goes, it may not come back. Therefore, you must work to preserve it.

I'm glad I was around for this milestone moment! Sunrise, sunset...they grow up so fast!


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## west point

Floridian would be nice Nashville , BHM but why not a Royal Palm that runs CHI <> Cincinnati tied to Cardinal and following Cardinal's time on days it does not operate and if Cardinal daily then combined CIN >< CHI ? Then NS CIN <> JAX and on to Florida. South bounds could connect to Southbound Crescent giving CHI <> BHM south service. Maybe build an ATL suburban station somewhere from Howell - Austell for connections until an ATL station can be built ?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

When I made the statement of a bad train is better than no train, I was referring to the Floridian.



jphjaxfl said:


> Keep in mind that the Floridian and National Limited in the 1970s were impacted by very bad Penn Central Trackage which drove away passengers. Both trains were frequently late. The Floridian trackage was bad from Chicago to Louisville. In 1975, they finally switched it to the former Monon routing and the schedule was more predictible. The National Limited trackage was bad from Pittsburgh to St. Louis. Much of the route is now abandoned. The St. Louis-Kansas City section west bound was so unpredictable that no one rode it. Missouri was not providing a subsidy at that point.





Swadian Hardcore said:


> 7. The Floridian was not doing too well. No surprise it got cancelled. It was late all the time and the trakcs were always damaged.


Which trains should have been cut in 1979? Of course the answer is none of them. Why pit one train against one another? Why should we have to choose one over another? Don't ask me, ask Congress why they didn't give Amtrak enough money to keep all of them. As long as Amtrak has to cut trains, I'm going to believe some trains should have been canceled and other should've been saved and if I have any impact I would do my best to keep the "right" trains.


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## Skyline

ehbowen said:


> Political. Jimmy Carter was an abject failure as a president, and with an election coming up he wanted to make it look like he was Doing Something. Amtrak had been sold with the notion that passenger trains could be "profitable", but in an environment where air and highway competition is both directly and indirectly subsidized that's just not possible without some form of direct subsidy. JC wanted to make a big show of chopping that subsidy. Considering that the Ayatollahs were preparing to reset the gas pumps yet again...can you say, "Penny wise, Pound foolish?"


This is especially sad in that I recall he took the train to DC for his inauguration. And carried his own bags a la Everyman.


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## Skyline

afigg said:


> 'cirdan' said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you don't restrict trains to just Amtrak trains, but look at the bigger picture with commuter rail and urban rail, there is considerably more mileage being operated today than in the 1970s and considerably more ridership, and the trend is clearly continuing with several more projects either being built or likely to be built soon. That means more people are likely to either use rail service (of some sort) more or less regularly or even if they don't use it themselves, they may work with people who do or have family members or friends who do so the whole concept of passenger rail is becoming more and more normal and embedded in people's awareness. That means that whereas people once thought of the car as the first and basically only way of getting anywhere, with there having to be a very compelling reason to even consider any alternative, people are becoming more open minded.
> 
> 
> 
> A major factor in supporting expansion of intercity passenger rail from what the situation was in 1971 is the growth of city rail transit systems, be it heavy rail metro, commuter & regional rail, light rail, street cars. In the 1950s and 60s, many cities shut down their street car and remaining interurban trolley systems. In 1971 at A-day, the only cities that had surviving extensive rail transit systems that come to mind are NYC, Philly, Boston, Chicago with smaller systems in Cleveland, DC with several commuter rail lines, Buffalo?, Pittsburgh?
> 
> Allegheny County Port Authority abandoned most of its street cars for buses by Fall 1966. Some were phased in on weekends prior to that. The street cars remained for the South Hills only, and continue today as newer LRT cars that are part of the South Hills to downtown (and more recently, North Shore) T-system.
Click to expand...


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## Anderson

So, eyeballing that chart (it did shuffle a lot over timetables), I spot the following trains as being potentially troubled:
-50/51
-21/22
-7/8-17/18

The Cardinal barely connects with anything to feed it (56 is a bad feeder, so you've got 9/10 and 330/337 (ex Su/Sa) that make the list of "recommended" connections and 380 that's legal-but-getting-tight. The Cardinal ultimately only survived because of political reasons. My guess is that another aspect was simply the fact that there was such a mess west of CIN at this point that someone decided it was better to break connections outright than to promise them and not make them.

The Lone Star is doing better in this timeframe, but at the same time Amtrak today probably wouldn't schedule anything so early...and when timekeeping got "interesting" it would have been a bad situation outbound.

The Empire Builder/North Coast Hiawatha is interesting: It arrives late (the only logical connection for 8/18 is 57).

The Lake Shore is also a bit of a mess: It misses two western connections and two more are getting tight (especially given ex-Penn Central tracks at this time), but it did well...I'm guessing this is a function of the daylight business it was able to command internally.

Finally, there's a dishonorable mention to the National Limited: it manages a legal connection in Kansas City...but good Lord that connection is worthy of 66/67 at NYP. It's passable as a backstop to a Chicago meltdown, but it's not pretty.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I don't necessarily believe east west trains have to allow for east-west connections, especially if two routes parallel each other. In the two Texas routes, you had the choice of two times to get between Chicago and Dallas. I'm pretty sure not every passenger through Chicago necessarily transferred from another train. I know many times I do just visit Chicago so I don't have a problem arriving there in the late afternoon after the California trains leave or leaving Chicago in the morning before they return (unless I actually am going to California, and even then, I have at times spent time in Chicago between the SWC/CZ and the TR/CL/LSL). If the Cardinal was a secondary Chicago-Washington train (the Broadway was the shortest), then it shouldn't be a disadvantage for it to be out of slot. Back then the Cardinal schedule actually served Cincinnati outside of the graveyard shift which to me is WAY better than it is today (in fact the chart says Washington and Cincinnati while today you can't really say the Cardinal serves Cincinnati unless you believe stopping by at 3am is serving them). Sure, maybe Cincinnati passengers desire to travel west of Chicago but give them a choice between a 1:30am train which gives them a chance to head to California or Texas or an 8am that doesn't and see what they choose (oh wait choice in this group is a swear word as the answer is why not both?) The Silver Star only allows a connection to/from the Capitol Limited in one direction while the Silver Meteor offers it in both directions (and more padding in case the CL comes in late from Chicago). But it doesn't mean the Star is worthless as it gives travelers from WAS, PHL, and NYP a choice in departure and arrival times (except into Miami where they are within half an hour from each other).

It's interesting to me there was essentially just one train between Chicago and Los Angeles, just one train between Chicago and the Bay Area, but two trains between Chicago and Seattle. Why should the least attractive destination(s) get the second train? When the Desert Wind came about LAX got a second train to Chicago but San Fran (assuming Emeryville counts as San Fran) only had one which was even worse during the non daily phase. Assuming we can restart both the Broadway and Desert Wind (and the host railroads cooperate, pretend it's fantasy world), then we can have the Broadway come into Chicago around 5-6pm (giving Cleveland and Toledo a non graveyard shift time) and then have the Desert Wind leave Chicago around 10pm at night while eastbound you can have the Broadway leave for Philly around noon but have the DW come in before 8am. In this case, even if the DW comes in late and you miss the Broadway you can still take the CL or LSL to get to Philly (with a transfer but it's better than being stranded in Chicago). Then you can still have transfers without trains being in the traditional transfer window. I've always said the Cardinal should be scheduled to favor Cincinnati and Indianapolis. I also once discussed the three Chicago-West Coast trains and found that the Empire Builder could be scheduled out of slot the most feasibly so it could leave Chicago late in the evening and arrive early in the morning so you could still transfer between the Cardinal and Empire Builder (bonus would be Spokane would be out of the graveyard shift). In fact if you made these changes today then you would be guaranteed to not be stranded in Chicago overnight from a late EB into CHI (unless it was really, really late)!

I'm not saying a train having the ability for East-West trains is a bad thing but not every east west train absolutely must require it and some trains need to consider the intermediate markets and not the endpoints (cough, Cardinal).


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## Anderson

I'll agree that you don't need to have _every_ train make _every_ connection (especially if, for example, on the Texas trains you can make the connection on a regional train to/from STL). The issue is if trains are making _no_ connections.

Conceptually, CHI would be well-served by having two pulses of trains in each direction. Heading east, one pulse would be aimed at daylight coverage east of (roughly) PGH/BUF and the other at daylight coverage west of there. Both would connect to/from at least _some_ western trains (for example, an overnight CHI-MSP[-Winnipeg?] train should be able to connect with a train arriving in early evening from New York. You could also manage a CHI-STL-KCY train which would connect with that (or, indeed, an overnight "direct" train which continued on towards Texas, California, or elsewhere). And so on. As long as each train has a reasonable set of connections I think you're good...it's when a train has almost no connections on one end (if not both) that you have issues.

On the East Coast, the Adirondack is another example of this: I accept that a NYP-MTR train probably can't make connections at both ends, but I'd want to arrange it so that an "early" train (departing around the time of the Maple Leaf, possibly paired with it) could connect through to Ottawa/Quebec City while a "late" train (probably departing around 1000) could make connections from NYP that aren't painfully early. SB, the "early" train wouldn't make any connections out of MTR but it would be able to connect to more than just the last train or two of the night (e.g. you could connect to Boston on a train other than the Shoreliner) while the "late" train would trade bad connections in New York for being late enough to recieve pax from Quebec/Ottawa.

Edit: So, to swing back to CHI, a good "early" EB train would have the Star and Palmetto as SB connections while a "late" train would be stuck with the Meteor/Crescent. One batch would focus on "connect with everything at CHI" while the other would angle for a strong connection set at WAS/PHL/NYP.


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## west point

2 trains to SEA / PDX ? That is a real stretch of the truth. Maybe we could call it 2 - 1/2 trains 1 to SEA and 1 to PDX ?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

west point said:


> 2 trains to SEA / PDX ? That is a real stretch of the truth. Maybe we could call it 2 - 1/2 trains 1 to SEA and 1 to PDX ?


1977: EB was daily, NCH 3 days/week MSP-SEA: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19770622&item=0053

1979: EB was 4 days/week, NCH 3 days/week (daily between CHI-MSP): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0043

Neither train served Portland, only the Pioneer (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19770622&item=0055) served PDX. I'm guessing the through branch of the EB didn't start until the Pioneer was canceled.

I know most of you hate non daily service but in 1979 CHI-SEA did have daily service as did CHI-MSP (and all cities between) and SPK had daily service to both CHI and SEA. The times in Washington (SEA, SPK) were different depending on which train was running that day. You didn't have the problem with the current Cardinal and SL where a train has to wait in an endpoint until the next run since one of the trains leaves CHI daily and one trains leaves SEA daily. I think the alternating EB/NCH worked. The only cities without daily service were the Rugby, ND's and Deer Lodge, MT's of the country. But now Rugby gets daily service but Deer Lodge doesn't have any service. I'm sure Deer Lodge would love to have 3x/week service.


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## jis

Your guess about Pioneer cancellation before or at the same time as the introduction of the EB Portland section is wrong. There were many years between the introduction of the Portland section of the EB (1979 when the NCH was canned) and the discontinuance of the Pioneer. Indeed there were several occasions when on a trip to Portland I went there by one and left there on the other.

Also as I recall there were periods when there was no NCH and the EB was three times a week.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> Your guess about Pioneer cancellation before or at the same time as the introduction of the EB Portland section is wrong. There were many years between the introduction of the Portland section of the EB (1979 when the NCH was canned) and the discontinuance of the Pioneer. Indeed there were several occasions when on a trip to Portland I went there by one and left there on the other.
> 
> Also as I recall there were periods when there was no NCH and the EB was three times a week.


This schedule had 4 days/week EB and 3 days/week Pioneer: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19951029n&item=0032

The Pioneer was roughly through cars off the California Zephyr at DEN. Like the EB/NCH combo, this combo had daily service between CHI-SEA but the EB route was much faster than the Pioneer route.


----------



## jis

The Pioneer started as an independent SLC - SEA train and pretty much remained that way until the CZ came about with through cars transferred at SLC, AFAIR. There may have been a short period of through cars transferred at Ogden from the SFZ. At least the times I traveled via SFZ and Pioneer there were no through cars. It was a cross platform connection at Ogden. So no, before CZ Pioneer mostly didn't have through cars and nor did Desert Wind. I used to travel to Portland several times a year in the 1978-82 timeframe when my Ph. D. advisor was at OGC in Portland and I was a grad student in Stony Brook. That is why I have some first hand experience.


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## railgeekteen

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the Chicago times for the relevant trains in the timetables and you'll see that most of the cut trains misconnected in Chicago. It wasn't the times in Texas that were at issue...it's that if you took the Lone Star you could connect to/from most of the other system trains while I'm not sure you could reliably make anything other than a stray weekend Hiawatha Service from the Inter-American. The trains that got cut seem to have primarily been ones where you couldn't make solid connections for chunks of the 1970s.
> 
> To their credit, it looks like towards the end Amtrak was improving on this front (again, look at the Inter-American/Eagle: No small part of that spike in ridership is due to the train's times in CHI getting improved to allow connections)...but it was too little too late for some trains (which presumably didn't have a chance to build up their ridership bases before the ax fell).
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a chart of the Chicago connections from a 1979 timetable: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790429&item=0033
> 
> You can argue ridership for the Lone Star was inflated by the ability to connect to the East and if you switched the schedules then the LS's ridership would go down while the I-A's ridership would go up. But there was a big difference here. The TE now also does benefit from less competition just like the EB without the NCH although ridership is always handicapped by capacity (but then fares go up with fewer options like the LSL right now). I still think having choices on schedule as opposed to two trains chasing each other's tails (SM and SS, LSL and CL) is better for passengers in giving them choices. Back then the BL and LSL were within a half hour going east but westbound the BL arrived into Chicago in the morning while the LSL arrived in the afternoon. Damn the host railroads!
> 
> It's interesting the Floridian was perfect in terms of connections from the West Coast, leaving late from Chicago and arriving early into Chicago from Florida. Then again Disney World didn't open until I believe 1971 so it might not have been as popular as it is today. I still can't believe more people from Chicago would want to spend two days traveling to Seattle than two days traveling to Florida. Then again a large portion of the US on the East Coast wouldn't have used the Floridian because they have NEC-Florida trains. You can say how "lousy" or slow a specific train is but I still say a bad train is better than no train. You think I get cranky because I have to transfer to get to Chicago? How about passengers from west of Chicago now having to make TWO transfers? I still hate the fact that to get from Texas to Florida or California to Florida you have to go all the way north to Chicago to go south (of course back in the 70's the SL was only LAX-NOL like it is today).
> 
> It's impossible to predict population 40 years from now like it was 40 years ago to predict the population of today. But based on recent population, the Floridian cancellation cost Amtrak two of the largest markets (Louisville and Nashville) that don't have Amtrak now, the National Limited cost Amtrak Columbus, and the Lone Star cost them Wichita and Oklahoma City (they did get OKC back but it only gets them to Ft. Worth.
> 
> I think the Texas Eagle split during the 90's was the best solution to give all four of the biggest markets (Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin) a one seat ride to Chicago as opposed to Houston not having one today.
> 
> If I had to choose between Floridian or Sunset East coming back (assuming extension of CONO for one seat ride Chicago-Florida), SL East would help out southern travelers going to Florida (although they also have to fix the east-west connections in NOL to make it more pleasant) while Floridian gets Louisville and Nashville back in the mix. I would say if there was a same day connection in NOL I'd favor the SL East. But if you pretty much have to go through Chicago to avoid an overnight stay, I'd say Floridian.
> 
> In reality, the National Limited really only helped KCY, STL, and IND get to the East Coast (and Columbus to get anywhere). Columbus is certainly valuable but I wonder how big a deal it is that you can't get from the NEC to KCY or STL. Certainly not being on a Chicago route doomed them. Then, I still say Amtrak f'ed up Columbus (and Cincinnati) on A-Day when they got rid of the Cincinnati Limited. Could you imagine a James Whitcomb Riley-Cincinnati Limited (going through Columbus) today?
> 
> Then again, Amtrak should make an attempt to follow population trends and at least try to get service back to high populated areas. The US of 2017 isn't the same as the US of 1977, Amtrak should change with them to better serve the US. Unless they could care less about serving the US. Seriously, Catlettsburg?
Click to expand...

National Limited also served Dayton. Floridan helps a lot more than Sunset East, a slightly changed route would gain more service to Atlanta as well.


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## west point

The SOU RR Royal Palm could be a very good multi city train. It could be a cut off train at Cincinnati with the Cardinal and be a train that would act as an extended Hoosier CIN <> IND. Use NS CIN - Chattanooga. Since the rat hole division rebuilding the timing would be quicker than the Palm. At CHA a thruway bus to Nashville and intermediate points would be under 3 hours with stops. At Atlanta there would be connections <> Birmingham at present Crescent times. Of course the present Crescent delays will have to be addressed.

An alternate solution to the ATL station problem might be for Palm and Crescent to interchange at an Austell station that would serve NW and Cobb county. Another station somewhere in downtown ATL for the Palm.

South of ATL take NS thru Macon and stations to JAX. Then either FEC or present silver service probably thru Tampa to MIA.

Believe it would take 5 train sets.


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## neroden

From what I've heard, the Floridian died largely due to freight railroads' desire to downgrade and abandon track; I am told it had had to reroute repeatedly and was running very very late because of the freight railroad sabotage.

This gets back to the point I always hammer on: a passenger operator needs to own the tracks.


----------

