# Changes Coming to METRO & THE Map



## The Davy Crockett

Rush+ Service, additional service, shortened station names (at least on THE map), the Silver Line makes an appearance...

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=654&sid=2792966


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## sechs

To be clear, this is the Washington, DC, Metro....


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## fairviewroad

The Yellow Line changes seem to make a lot of sense, particularly for the Franconia-Springfield branch. I don't really see the need for some Orange Line trains to head to Largo Town Center. The only people that benefits is people traveling the entire way over to/from west of Rosslyn on the Vienna branch. Is there really that much demand for one-seat service? As it is, it's an easy same-platform transfer.

Also, interesting that the Silver Line makes an appearance, but without any reference to where it's going. Most people can probably figure out (or already know) that it's going to serve Dulles, but why not mark that on the map?


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## The Davy Crockett

fairviewroad said:


> The Yellow Line changes seem to make a lot of sense, particularly for the Franconia-Springfield branch. I don't really see the need for some Orange Line trains to head to Largo Town Center. The only people that benefits is people traveling the entire way over to/from west of Rosslyn on the Vienna branch. Is there really that much demand for one-seat service? As it is, it's an easy same-platform transfer.
> 
> Also, interesting that the Silver Line makes an appearance, but without any reference to where it's going. Most people can probably figure out (or already know) that it's going to serve Dulles, but why not mark that on the map?



I'll surmise answers to both of these.

With the Orange line I suspect that it has to do with capacity. Additional trains are being added in an effort to relieve the 'Orange crush' that happens with trains going into DC from Virginia. At the same time, trains from Franconia/Springfield are being routed more directly downtown over the Yellow Line and proceeding up that line. This not only provides a more direct routing for many people into downtown, but it will also help relieve the current congestion in the tunnel under the river, which the Blue and Orange Lines share. This means there will be less Blue Line Trains east of downtown, so some Orange Line trains will be sent out the eastern end of the Blue line to provide the same level of service that that segment currently has.

With the Silver Line, station names have not been finalized and funding for the segment actually out to Dulles has not been secured. But I also think they left it vague on purpose. It helps to keep people who are unfamiliar with the system from thinking that trains are running on the Silver Line. When the original METRO was only partially complete, THE Map was not very clear about which lines and which stations were actually in service, and which ones were under construction or just planned. This caused a lot of confusion with new riders. When I commuted on METRO in a past life it seemed like I was forever trying to help people who thought they could ride to a station not yet open. And a lot of them seemed 'p.o.ed' when they realized their plans were not going to work. METRO caught a fair amount of flack for this.


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## Trogdor

fairviewroad said:


> The Yellow Line changes seem to make a lot of sense, particularly for the Franconia-Springfield branch. I don't really see the need for some Orange Line trains to head to Largo Town Center. The only people that benefits is people traveling the entire way over to/from west of Rosslyn on the Vienna branch. Is there really that much demand for one-seat service? As it is, it's an easy same-platform transfer.


My interpretation is that the rerouted Orange Line trains are extra service covering for the fact that some Blue Line trains are being turned into extended Yellow Line trains. Probably filling gaps where the Blue-turned-Yellow trains used to be.



> Also, interesting that the Silver Line makes an appearance, but without any reference to where it's going. Most people can probably figure out (or already know) that it's going to serve Dulles, but why not mark that on the map?


Probably because it won't be open for a few more years, and they don't want to confuse people by having them think the service is available now when it isn't.


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## AlanB

The Davy Crockett said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Yellow Line changes seem to make a lot of sense, particularly for the Franconia-Springfield branch. I don't really see the need for some Orange Line trains to head to Largo Town Center. The only people that benefits is people traveling the entire way over to/from west of Rosslyn on the Vienna branch. Is there really that much demand for one-seat service? As it is, it's an easy same-platform transfer.
> 
> Also, interesting that the Silver Line makes an appearance, but without any reference to where it's going. Most people can probably figure out (or already know) that it's going to serve Dulles, but why not mark that on the map?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll surmise answers to both of these.
> 
> With the Orange line I suspect that it has to do with capacity. Additional trains are being added in an effort to relieve the 'Orange crush' that happens with trains going into DC from Virginia. At the same time, trains from Franconia/Springfield are being routed more directly downtown over the Yellow Line and proceeding up that line. This not only provides a more direct routing for many people into downtown, but it will also help relieve the current congestion in the tunnel under the river, which the Blue and Orange Lines share. This means there will be less Blue Line Trains east of downtown, so some Orange Line trains will be sent out the eastern end of the Blue line to provide the same level of service that that segment currently has.
Click to expand...

You are sort of correct here. The point isn't so much to relieve the "orange crush" as it is to deal with the coming of the Silver Line. Due to the orange crush, they cannot fit any more trains through the switch that merges the Blue & Orange lines on the Virginia side just west of the Rosslyn station. So in order to work in the new trains from the Silver line, they must reduce the number of Blue line trains coming that way.

So the plan is to send some Blue line trains over the Yellow line which still has the capacity for more trains. This frees up slots on the combined Blue/Orange line through DC. Now since the Silver line isn't yet ready to run, rather than reducing capacity on the combined line and to help with the Orange Crush, they are temporarily adding more Orange line trains. However, the normal end point for the Blue line in Maryland would see reduced service if all those extra Orange line trains went to the normal end of the line @ New Carrollton. Remember, they sent some Blues onto the Yellow line. So for that reason, as well as to practice what will happen with the Silver line trains eventually, those temporary extra Oranges go to the Blue line terminus @ Largo TC. Once the Silver line starts running,then you will once again only see Orange line trains running to New Carrollton. Largo will see both Blue & Silver trains in the future.


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## fairviewroad

Great comments, and the Orange/Blue rationale makes a lot of sense.

As far as the phantom Silver Line, I guess it could be confusing but why even put it on the map at all, then? It's a stealth marketing campaign, I guess! :giggle:


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## The Davy Crockett

AlanB said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Yellow Line changes seem to make a lot of sense, particularly for the Franconia-Springfield branch. I don't really see the need for some Orange Line trains to head to Largo Town Center. The only people that benefits is people traveling the entire way over to/from west of Rosslyn on the Vienna branch. Is there really that much demand for one-seat service? As it is, it's an easy same-platform transfer.
> 
> Also, interesting that the Silver Line makes an appearance, but without any reference to where it's going. Most people can probably figure out (or already know) that it's going to serve Dulles, but why not mark that on the map?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll surmise answers to both of these.
> 
> With the Orange line I suspect that it has to do with capacity. Additional trains are being added in an effort to relieve the 'Orange crush' that happens with trains going into DC from Virginia. At the same time, trains from Franconia/Springfield are being routed more directly downtown over the Yellow Line and proceeding up that line. This not only provides a more direct routing for many people into downtown, but it will also help relieve the current congestion in the tunnel under the river, which the Blue and Orange Lines share. This means there will be less Blue Line Trains east of downtown, so some Orange Line trains will be sent out the eastern end of the Blue line to provide the same level of service that that segment currently has.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are sort of correct here. The point isn't so much to relieve the "orange crush" as it is to deal with the coming of the Silver Line. Due to the orange crush, they cannot fit any more trains through the switch that merges the Blue & Orange lines on the Virginia side just west of the Rosslyn station. So in order to work in the new trains from the Silver line, they must reduce the number of Blue line trains coming that way.
> 
> So the plan is to send some Blue line trains over the Yellow line which still has the capacity for more trains. This frees up slots on the combined Blue/Orange line through DC. Now since the Silver line isn't yet ready to run, rather than reducing capacity on the combined line and to help with the Orange Crush, they are temporarily adding more Orange line trains. However, the normal end point for the Blue line in Maryland would see reduced service if all those extra Orange line trains went to the normal end of the line @ New Carrollton. Remember, they sent some Blues onto the Yellow line. So for that reason, as well as to practice what will happen with the Silver line trains eventually, those temporary extra Oranges go to the Blue line terminus @ Largo TC. Once the Silver line starts running,then you will once again only see Orange line trains running to New Carrollton. Largo will see both Blue & Silver trains in the future.
Click to expand...

Thanks Allen. I was wondering where the Silver Line was going to fit into the scheme of things. From the construction just east of the West Falls Church station, where the Silver Line joins the Orange, it sure looks like the Silvers will contiue downtown, but I'd not heard exactly what the plans were.


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## Ryan

fairviewroad said:


> Great comments, and the Orange/Blue rationale makes a lot of sense.
> 
> As far as the phantom Silver Line, I guess it could be confusing but why even put it on the map at all, then? It's a stealth marketing campaign, I guess! :giggle:


Lines under construction have always been shown on Metro Maps.

Here's what the map looked like in 1982:


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## Trogdor

Ryan said:


> Here's what the map looked like in 1982:


I've seen that map before, can't remember where (maybe in a book about transit maps).

When I looked at it more closely, one thing didn't quite make sense to me. If I'm reading that map correctly, it looks like westbound Blue Line trains ran from New Carrollton to National Airport, and eastbound Orange Line trains ran from National Airport to New Carrollton. Meanwhile, eastbound Blue Line trains ran from that one station whose name I can't quite make out on the map, to Addison Road, while westbound Oranges ran from Addison Road to that one station whose name I can't quite make out on the map.

Since apparently the routes were either National Airport-New Carrollton, or Addison Road-that one station whose name I can't quite make out on the map, why were the colors split in each direction? Anyone with enough actual historical knowledge of the system with insight on that? It seems they made it rather complicated, given that each O/D pair was its own captive route (if I'm interpreting that map correctly).

The only thing I can think of is that they knew they were going to swap the terminals of the trains once the extensions were built, and they wanted to get people used boarding the correct train for the correct destination (if you're going to National Airport, take the Blue Line, if you're going to Addison Road, take the Blue Line, if you're going to New Carrollton, take the Orange Line, if you're going to that one station...you get the idea...take the Orange Line). Maybe I've just answered my own question.

What's also interesting about the 1982 map is that it shows the Yellow Line running from Greenbelt to Franconia-Springifeld, and now, 30 years later, that's finally going to happen (albeit rush hours only).


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## The Davy Crockett

Trogdor,

The name of the station you can't quite make out is Ballston.

Having been primarily a Red Line rider until I moved across the river a few years ago, I had forgotten about the Orange & Blue lines running as shown on the map, let alone why they did...


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## Ryan

I found the map on Greater Greater Washington (but couldn't find the article where it was used), so you may have seen it there.

Here's a piece that they did on the evolution of the Metro service that's quite interesting:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/4835/the-evolution-of-metrorail-1976-2010/

In it, I found the article that contains that map, and it contains an explanation of those service patterns:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/1298/what-was-up-with-the-one-way-orange-blue/



> From any station, the Blue trains are headed toward National and Addison, which is where Blue trains go today, and the Orange trains are headed toward Ballston and New Carrollton, which is where those go today. So this gets riders used to boarding the correct color train to go from the central business district to an outlying area. However, they still board the wrong color train heading inbound, but from there, there are fewer choices and less opportunity for error.


It's interesting that the split blue/orange line is coming back, but unlike the earlier iteration the "color" of the train will be driven by the origin, not the destination of the train. In 1982 a Ballston to Addison Road train would always be blue (because it had went to the end of the blue line). This summer, that same train will be an Orange train, because it's originating on the Orange side of the line.

You can also see on the 1982 map that the legs of the blue and yellow lines were swapped. That map shows the line to Franconia-Springfield as the Yellow line, but today that service is considered a part of the blue line.

Back on the topic of showing lines under construction, here is the WMATA map of my youth:





IMG_0507 by tracktwentynine, on Flickr

This map shows my favorite WMATA oddity, the "Green Line Commuter Shortcut":





IMG_0505 by tracktwentynine, on Flickr

Before the Green Line was completed, it ran in 2 sections that actually intersected at Gallery Place. The Greenbelt section took a switch between West Hyattsville and Fort Totten and "took a left" onto the Red Line to pass through the downtown core, going as far as Farragut North before turning back to run towards Greenbelt.

Many thanks to Tracktwentynine and the crew at GGW for documenting all of this.


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## The Davy Crockett

Thanks Ryan. Great post!



Ryan said:


> It's interesting that the split blue/orange line is coming back, but unlike the earlier iteration the "color" of the train will be driven by the origin, not the destination of the train. In 1982 a Ballston to Addison Road train would always be blue (because it had went to the end of the blue line). This summer, that same train will be an Orange train, because it's originating on the Orange side of the line.


Somehow this just seems inherently backwards to me. I mean does one care more about where the train came from, or where it is going?

Could this 'new' practice be a projection of how METRO management looks at things? :unsure: :lol:

And, on a different note, let me add:



> Many thanks to Tracktwentynine and the crew at GGW for documenting all of this.


:hi:


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## Trogdor

Thanks for that link. It sounds like the explanation was close to what I had guessed.

Reading the comments further down that link, this explained it a bit better:



> Actually, and I can remember this like it was yesterday, it was due to a car shortage and in the name of efficiency, this took care of a capacity issue. To put it bluntly, back in the day, the Orange Line was heavy on the New Carrollton end, while the Blue Line was heavier on the National Airport end...so, in the name of efficiency, Metro operated trains from National Airport to New Carrollton and from Addison Road to Ballston....then, after the Yellow Line opened between Gallery Place and the Airport, all things reverted back to normal.


The split route operation made it so they didn't have to change any destination signs in the stations or on the trains (which I guess had roll signs back then).


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## Ryan

Yep, before the LEDs were flip dots, and before that were the roll signs (some pictures can be found here)

Cameron Booth (designer of the Amtrak as a Subway map) has a site where he critiques transit maps from around the world. Here's his take on WMATA's map:

http://transitmaps.tumblr.com/post/19748100302/washington-rush-plus



fairviewroad said:


> Also, interesting that the Silver Line makes an appearance, but without any reference to where it's going. Most people can probably figure out (or already know) that it's going to serve Dulles, but why not mark that on the map?


It's right there at the top:


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## afigg

The Davy Crockett said:


> Thanks Allen. I was wondering where the Silver Line was going to fit into the scheme of things. From the construction just east of the West Falls Church station, where the Silver Line joins the Orange, it sure looks like the Silvers will contiue downtown, but I'd not heard exactly what the plans were.


Some clarification on the Silver Line stub on the new map. The new map shows the five stations and 11.6 miles of Phase 1 which is under construction. The service over the Phase 1 section was supposed to start in late 2013, but probably will be early 2014. The new map will only be in use for less than 2 years, when a new one with the operational Phase 1 of the Silver Line will be issued.

The Silver Line will join the Orange Line between West Falls Church and East Falls Church stations. The Silver Line trains will run on the Orange Line, and the Orange/Blue Line starting at Rosslyn, through downtown DC to Stadium Armory where they will stop and come back on the other track.

Phase 2 of the Silver Line is supposed to start construction early next year. Phase 2 will add 6 more stations, running from Reston Town Center to Dulles Airport and 2 stations west of Dulles. The maintenance yard for the Silver Line will be located on the grounds of Dulles. Phase 2 is pretty much funded, but there are some questions about Fairfax and Loudoun Counties paying for the parking garages at the stations. I would not be totally surprised if the last 2 stations in Loudoun County west of Dulles Airport were "postponed" or "delayed" because of the politics in Loudoun county, but odds are they will be included with Phase 2.

The Silver Line will extend so far west of the current DC Metro system, it is an interesting challenge to squeeze the 11 stations in on the map without totally distorting the map. The station names for Silver Line Phase 1 are not on the map because they have not been finalized. Which is good because the initial names the Fairfax County Board came up with were awful. DullesMetro.com website has info and newsletter on the project.


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## Trogdor

On a different note, are WMATA's new 7000-series cars in service yet, or will they be in service by the time of the June expansion?


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## Ryan

Nope, we haven't seen the first one yet. The plan was for delivery of the first quad set at the end of this year for testing, but word is that they are running about 6 months behind.

Here's a video that WMATA just released from Japan:

http://www.wmata.com/about_metro/news/PressReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=5178

Sarles says that the strip maps are something that WMATA hasn't had before - if you look at the roll maps I linked upthread, you can see that they provided "analog" strip maps back at the very beginning.

They also posted some pictures - they appear to be good looking cars (with the exception of the hideous new graphics on the side):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metroforward/sets/72157629547185295/with/6820933206/


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## AlanB

I see from the photos that they were smart and incorporated the digital variable message signs that the MTA here in NY has been putting into all new cars now for several years now. These displays show the next 10 station stops all the time and then scroll through the remaining stops in groups of 10. As the train moves along they constantly update, making it much easier for a casual rider or visitor to keep track of where they are and where they need to get off the train.


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## fairviewroad

Ryan said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, interesting that the Silver Line makes an appearance, but without any reference to where it's going. Most people can probably figure out (or already know) that it's going to serve Dulles, but why not mark that on the map?
> 
> 
> 
> It's right there at the top:
Click to expand...

True enough. To be honest, I had missed that. Still, it seems that previous maps showing "future service" also indicated on the map the specific stations that would be served in the future. This new map does not.


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## Ryan

Because those stations don't yet have names.


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## afigg

Ryan said:


> Because those stations don't yet have names.


There was a survey taken by WMATA that closed on March 21 for input on the proposed Silver Line station names in Fairfax County. The Greater Greater Washington blog had a recent discussion on the survey and suggested names which lists the name the Fairfax County Board came up with, with no apparent thought given to the importance of having names that are descriptive, short, and not muddled. All we can do is hope that the staff and WMATA board settle on clear names for the Silver Line and not fall victim to the whims of politics that resulted in station names like U Street/African-American Civil War Memorial/Cardozo. If the Silver Line is to open by November/December of 2013 - which is optimistic given the slip in delivery of the 7000 series cars, the station names will likely have to be finalized this year.


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## GG-1

The Davy Crockett said:


> Somehow this just seems inherently backwards to me. I mean does one care more about where the train came from, or where it is going?
> 
> Could this 'new' practice be a projection of how METRO management looks at things? :unsure: :lol:


Aloha

Doesn't seem strange to me. In NYC, that is exactly how they Identify their trains. Remember the movie Pelham 123, that name is because the train starts at Pelham at 1:23. I laugh because it is funny that someone in Hollywood used a real naming convention :giggle:


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## NY Penn

Just curious - what's the point of putting lines under construction on the map? Aside from that, I like how they shortened the ridiculous station names.



GG-1 said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Somehow this just seems inherently backwards to me. I mean does one care more about where the train came from, or where it is going?
> 
> Could this 'new' practice be a projection of how METRO management looks at things? :unsure: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Doesn't seem strange to me. In NYC, that is exactly how they Identify their trains. Remember the movie Pelham 123, that name is because the train starts at Pelham at 1:23. I laugh because it is funny that someone in Hollywood used a real naming convention :giggle:
Click to expand...

Interestingly, that's how they're identified internally, not to the public.

For example, to the public a train is known as a (7), for example.

Between the train operator, dispatcher, etc. the train is known as the 4:14 7 Times Square, if it started at Times Square at 4:14.

Not to take this thread OT.


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## Trogdor

The Davy Crockett said:


> Thanks Ryan. Great post!
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting that the split blue/orange line is coming back, but unlike the earlier iteration the "color" of the train will be driven by the origin, not the destination of the train. In 1982 a Ballston to Addison Road train would always be blue (because it had went to the end of the blue line). This summer, that same train will be an Orange train, because it's originating on the Orange side of the line.
> 
> 
> 
> Somehow this just seems inherently backwards to me. I mean does one care more about where the train came from, or where it is going?
Click to expand...

But will the extra service not be operating in both directions? If it is, then it would only be identifying where the train came from in one direction, but will be showing its (more or less) destination line in the other. I say "more or less" because the Yellow Line will be extended to Greenbelt, which isn't its normal terminal, but it makes more sense showing it as a yellow line than as a Green Line.


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## The Davy Crockett

Trogdor said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Ryan. Great post!
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting that the split blue/orange line is coming back, but unlike the earlier iteration the "color" of the train will be driven by the origin, not the destination of the train. In 1982 a Ballston to Addison Road train would always be blue (because it had went to the end of the blue line). This summer, that same train will be an Orange train, because it's originating on the Orange side of the line.
> 
> 
> 
> Somehow this just seems inherently backwards to me. I mean does one care more about where the train came from, or where it is going?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But will the extra service not be operating in both directions? If it is, then it would only be identifying where the train came from in one direction, but will be showing its (more or less) destination line in the other. I say "more or less" because the Yellow Line will be extended to Greenbelt, which isn't its normal terminal, but it makes more sense showing it as a yellow line than as a Green Line.
Click to expand...

Suddenly the 'split' Orange and Blue Lines on the 1982 map make a whole lot of sense.


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## trainman74

GG-1 said:


> In NYC, that is exactly how they Identify their trains. Remember the movie Pelham 123, that name is because the train starts at Pelham at 1:23. I laugh because it is funny that someone in Hollywood used a real naming convention :giggle:



I think it was the author of the original book who did all the heavy research, rather than "Hollywood" when they made the movie.

I have friends who live on the north side of Chicago who complain about the automated annunciators in 'L' stations that are programmed to say "train from the Loop arriving" instead of "train to Howard arriving" or even just "northbound train arriving" -- so it's not necessarily just railfans who notice this kind of thing.


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## Trogdor

trainman74 said:


> I have friends who live on the north side of Chicago who complain about the automated annunciators in 'L' stations that are programmed to say "train from the Loop arriving" instead of "train to Howard arriving" or even just "northbound train arriving" -- so it's not necessarily just railfans who notice this kind of thing.


It's because the system wasn't very advanced. It was just triggered by a train passing a certain point. The system doesn't know where the train is going (or, even, whether the train is in service).

Those announcements can be quite useless at a place such as Roosevelt, where you don't know whether the train is Green or Orange, and therefore still need to wait until the train gets in to see whether it's the one you want.

All that is pointless now (and hopefully they'll either disconnect or reprogram it), because Train Tracker tells you when the next (several) train(s) is(are) arriving, and where it(they) is(are) going.


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## DET63

At least on BART the platform signs tell where the train is going. There are, of course, no destination signs on the trains themselves, save for a very small one in the operator's cab of the lead car.

Here's a typical sign showing a train's destination:


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## Ryan

So does WMATA (in addition to the destination signs on the train):


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## Trogdor

3 min, 12 min, and 14 min. Sounds about right for WMATA. The only surprising part about that photo is that the all three trains are (supposedly) in service.


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## Ryan

I don't know when the picture was taken, but since it's showing trains short-turning at NY Ave, it's certainly during a time of abnormal service.


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## afigg

Ryan said:


> I don't know when the picture was taken, but since it's showing trains short-turning at NY Ave, it's certainly during a time of abnormal service.


Could have been taken during one of the weekend maintenance service reductions with single tracking on the Red Line north of NY Avenue. The time spacing between trains is consistent with a weekend or later night service. NY Avenue station will be renamed NoMa-Gallaudet when the new map and schedules take effect in June. If they short turn trains after the name change, I would guess the sign would say NoMa. Which will really confuse people until everyone learns where NoMa is.


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## The Davy Crockett

afigg said:


> Which will really confuse people until everyone learns where NoMa is.


And which will never happen because so many folks in DC are 'just visiting.' METRO really needs to stop taking cues from a station's local business and school community or we will soon (if we already aren't) be in the record books for the station(s) with the longest names in the world.

Imagine being a tourist from a country like China, whose native tongue is so different, and not knowing English well. It must be VERY confusing!

Well at least Washington doesn't get very many international visitors! :giggle:


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## afigg

The Davy Crockett said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which will really confuse people until everyone learns where NoMa is.
> 
> 
> 
> And which will never happen because so many folks in DC are 'just visiting.' METRO really needs to stop taking cues from a station's local business and school community or we will soon (if we already aren't) be in the record books for the station(s) with the longest names in the world.
> 
> Imagine being a tourist from a country like China, whose native tongue is so different, and not knowing English well. It must be VERY confusing!
> 
> Well at least Washington doesn't get very many international visitors! :giggle:
Click to expand...

Perhaps, I should not have written "everyone learns where NoMa is", but "most people learns where NoMa is". The NoMa name for the neighborhood has, after enough years of plugging away by the developers, has begun to become commonly used in the local press and on websites. Once the Metro station has been renamed and the name shows up on maps, it will become the common name used in everyday conversation. As for name length, that is the advantage of NoMa as the key identifier. Its short. It may be a little silly, but it is short. Swampoodle might have been more fun, but developers would never go for "swamp" in the name. :lol:

"New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U" is rather vague, especially if one has no clue what or where Gallaudet U is.


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## sechs

Ryan said:


> So does WMATA (in addition to the destination signs on the train)


Metro is based on the BART system, so it kind of follows.
BART is planning on getting new cars (some of the current rolling stock has been on BART since the system opened in 1972), which, as I understand it, have additional signage, such as Metro has had for some time.


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## sechs

afigg said:


> NY Avenue station will be renamed NoMa-Gallaudet when the new map and schedules take effect in June. If they short turn trains after the name change, I would guess the sign would say NoMa. Which will really confuse people until everyone learns where NoMa is.


So, instead of being long and confusing, they'll be cryptic and confusing?
When I looked up "NoMa" I found it to be a Danish restaurant. And there are plenty of folks who have no idea what Gallaudet is, let alone where.


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## Trogdor

afigg said:


> "New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U" is rather vague, especially if one has no clue what or where Gallaudet U is.


It's not vague at all, if you have any sense of the DC street network. One would assume that a station with that name would be at or near the intersection of New York Ave and Florida Ave.

Though, to be fair, most tourists who have no idea where any of these landmarks are have just as little idea of the DC street network (save perhaps a couple of really famous ones, such as Pennsylvania Ave). I'd bet a good portion of visitors get more DC regional geography from the subway map than anything else.


----------



## afigg

sechs said:


> So, instead of being long and confusing, they'll be cryptic and confusing?
> 
> When I looked up "NoMa" I found it to be a Danish restaurant. And there are plenty of folks who have no idea what Gallaudet is, let alone where.


NoMa is a created name for an area just north of Union Station in DC. Stands for North of Massachussets Avenue. There is a lot of construction and buildings going up there. Give it a couple of years with the new Metro station name and it will be an established name for the neighborhood.

It has had a Wikipedia entry for a few years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoMa,_Washington,_D.C.

Business development website to plug the neighborhood: http://www.nomabid.org/


----------



## sechs

So, this is just government enforcement of a lightly used colloquial name. They might as well go with not-dead ex-presidents; that's already popular with the airports.


----------



## Ryan

That's not exactly true, the NoMA "brand" is driven more by the private developers that want to drive demand for property in this area. The BID (along with the other 7 improvement districts in DC) is a private-public partnership that gets its funding from the businesses located in that district. The only government involvement is the legislation that makes the setup of the organization possible.


----------



## sechs

So, it's a name manufactured by business interests for their own gain; now, to be foisted upon the public by the government? This isn't getting better!


----------



## AlanB

And here I thought it was all my fault.

Last year for NTD my mom & I came down a day early and stayed in the new Courtyard right by the New York Metro station. And as we walked from Union Station my mom kept turning down the wrong street and I had to keep saying No Ma, we have to go this way.


----------



## Ryan

sechs said:


> So, it's a name manufactured by business interests for their own gain; now, to be foisted upon the public by the government? This isn't getting better!


I'm not sure I see where anything is being foisted on anyone by the government.



AlanB said:


> And here I thought it was all my fault.
> 
> Last year for NTD my mom & I came down a day early and stayed in the new Courtyard right by the New York Metro station. And as we walked from Union Station my mom kept turning down the wrong street and I had to keep saying No Ma, we have to go this way.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## The Davy Crockett

AlanB said:


> And here I thought it was all my fault.
> 
> Last year for NTD my mom & I came down a day early and stayed in the new Courtyard right by the New York Metro station. And as we walked from Union Station my mom kept turning down the wrong street and I had to keep saying No Ma, we have to go this way.




And the rest is history. :unsure:


----------



## Trogdor

Granted, NoMa is shorter than New York Ave, but doesn't this station renaming kinda go against WMATA's desire to stop naming stations after every little neighborhood association and attraction in the area near the station?

This will just open a whole nuther can of worms with groups who want a station renamed. Even with the new map design, it can go from New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U-NoMa-Holiday Inn-Bob's Discount Used Bookstore and Coffee Shop-American Museum of Ridiculously Long Transportation System Names and Signs, to

NoMa-Gallaudet

New York Ave-Florida Ave-Holiday Inn-Bob's Discount Used Bookstore and Coffee Shop-American Museum of Ridiculously Long Transportation System Names and Signs

If it were up to me, I'd call it "New York Avenue" and be done with it.


----------



## afigg

sechs said:


> So, it's a name manufactured by business interests for their own gain; now, to be foisted upon the public by the government? This isn't getting better!


This is not any different than countless towns, communities, and streets that have been named by developers all over the US. If you live or have lived in any sort of post WW II planned urban and suburban developments, the street and community names were created by the developers to market the development project and sell homes and lease office space. The result, of course, is few colorful or interesting names, but mostly bland ones.

So we get NoMa, which is rather silly, but that is the name. I gather the inspiration for the short name was the SoHo district in NYC, which looking it up, stands for South of HOuston Avenue. I imagine they tried to make a name from combining Florida and New York Avenues - FloNY?, NewFlo?, RidaNew? - but No, Ma! it is.


----------



## Ryan

Trogdor said:


> If it were up to me, I'd call it "New York Avenue" and be done with it.


The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.

NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.

That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.


----------



## afigg

Trogdor said:


> Granted, NoMa is shorter than New York Ave, but doesn't this station renaming kinda go against WMATA's desire to stop naming stations after every little neighborhood association and attraction in the area near the station?
> 
> This will just open a whole nuther can of worms with groups who want a station renamed.
> 
> ...
> 
> If it were up to me, I'd call it "New York Avenue" and be done with it.


WMATA staff's and transportation experts may want shorter descriptive names, but the politicians and their representatives on the WMATA board who, in response to political pressure from other politicians (and the interest groups that support them), make the final call. So, over the years, when renaming opportunities opened up, the system got stuck with U St/African-Amer Civil War Memorial/Cardozo. The good thing about the new map is that many of the worse names have been shortened with the secondary names moved to the smaller print second line. Where they can be ignored by people trying to keep track of which stations they need to get off at. Well, with the exception of Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport, but that was forced on them by Congress.

The funny thing about the New York Avenue-etc,etc Metro station is that it is not located on New York Avenue, but rather south of it. Look at the station on Google Earth, which incidentally displays NoMa as a neighborhood name. The north end of the station exits onto a trail and 2nd St NE a little south of Florida Avenue NE. You have to walk about 600'-700' to get to New York Avenue NE. The station name should have led with Florida Ave when it was built as an in-fill station, but New York Ave is better known and a major road since NY Avenue NE is also Rt. 50, so the station was given New York Ave as the lead and shorthand name.


----------



## trainman74

Trogdor said:


> American Museum of Ridiculously Long Transportation System Names and Signs


I wish this really existed!


----------



## Ispolkom

Ryan said:


> The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.
> 
> NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.
> 
> That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.


NY Ave is five characters. NoMA is four, plus it has that horrible internal capitalization. Not a big improvement, in my opinion. At least my favorite station hasn't changed. One of my fonder memories of ten years of commuting on the Washington Metro was the trainman announcing, "Red Line to Shaaaady Grove!"


----------



## Ryan

The former name wasn't "NY Ave", it was "New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U".

"NoMA-Gallaudet U" is a big improvement, as it's shorter and more geographically correct.


----------



## NY Penn

Why not call it

New York Av

Florida Av

? It would be much shorter and would avoid putting all possible names into a station.



afigg said:


> SoHo district in NYC, which looking it up, stands for South of HOuston Avenue.


It's Houston Street.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Ispolkom said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.
> 
> NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.
> 
> That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.
> 
> 
> 
> NY Ave is five characters. NoMA is four, plus it has that horrible internal capitalization. Not a big improvement, in my opinion. At least my favorite station hasn't changed. One of my fonder memories of ten years of commuting on the Washington Metro was the trainman announcing, "Red Line to Shaaaady Grove!"
Click to expand...

Ryan is referencing that the street itself is really long and stretches across DC for a while, so it is not descriptive because so many places are on NY Ave, not the fact that the actual name NoMa is shorter than NY Ave


----------



## sechs

afigg said:


> This is not any different than countless towns, communities, and streets that have been named by developers all over the US.


I guess L'Enfant was just some developer hack....


----------



## sechs

Ryan said:


> The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.


How's NY-FL Ave? That's the general vicinity that they're after.


> NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.


It's not more precise if it's not descriptive, as people don't know what "NoMa" is. They could have renamed the station "James Carter" and at least had an acceptable reason behind it.


> That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.


Calling it "SoNY" probably would have caused problems.


----------



## jis

sechs said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not any different than countless towns, communities, and streets that have been named by developers all over the US.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess L'Enfant was just some developer hack....
Click to expand...

Actually he kind of was.....  Foisted onto us by the big bad government no less 

Anyway, NoMa is no worse than DUMBO, fortunately no subway station named that yet, since there is none in close enough vicinity. We'll all get used to it after everyone has had their go at venting about it.


----------



## sechs

Except that DUMBO is an organic name. People started using it, and businesses later picked up on it.

NoMa was concocted by businesses, as a brand name. Due to the plat of the city, Massachusetts Avenue doesn't even run east-west; the area should really be called "NEoMa."


----------



## Ryan

Now you're just being ridiculous.

Houston Street doesn't run E-W either.

I'm not sure why someone in California is so wrapped around the axle about what we call a neighborhood here in DC. You might not have know where NoMA was before this thread, but people here certainly do.


----------



## jis

trainman74 said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> American Museum of Ridiculously Long Transportation System Names and Signs
> 
> 
> 
> I wish this really existed!
Click to expand...

Maybe Anthony can set it up as an annex to the Timetable Library ..... no juuuust kidding :giggle:


----------



## jis

sechs said:


> Except that DUMBO is an organic name. People started using it, and businesses later picked up on it.
> 
> NoMa was concocted by businesses, as a brand name. Due to the plat of the city, Massachusetts Avenue doesn't even run east-west; the area should really be called "NEoMa."


Come on! I don't see you complaining abut SoHo not being SWoHo in New York! :blink:

So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?

Frankly I do not see much logic in your bellyaching, but of course everyone is free to bellyache about whatever pleases them or not.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jis said:


> trainman74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> American Museum of Ridiculously Long Transportation System Names and Signs
> 
> 
> 
> I wish this really existed!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe Anthony can set it up as an annex to the Timetable Library ..... no juuuust kidding :giggle:
Click to expand...

Someone should write a RFP, there could be grant money for this! :lol:


----------



## The Journalist

I lived in DC many years ago (I was 11) and I vividly remember the "split" Green Line. At that time the Glenmont extension was still under construction as well-since I lived by Tenleytown station and took the Red frequently it was strange to hear the announcement change from "Wheaton" to "Glenmont" when it opened.

So the Dulles extension is officially the Silver Line now? I know that's what it'd been called unofficially for years but I don't remember hearing it ever being made official.

Also, I'm puzzled about where the Silver is going to end. I've been hearing Stadium-Armory...but if the split Orange is a placeholder for the Silver, it would make more sense to send the Silver to Largo and end the Blue at Stadium-and send both to Largo during rush period.

Really, though, looking at the capacity issues on the Rosslyn interchange, it looks like eventually they're going to need another set of tunnels crossing the Potomac from Arlington/Fairfax/(Loudoun?) County. Wasn't there some vague concept of running the Blue up though Georgetown and over to Union?

All that said, this is likely the best Metro map I've seen. The parking symbol is something reasonably standard-a P in a box-rather than a bizarre car symbol, the unnecessary short-turn explanation boxes on the Red and Yellow are gone, and sections under construction look significantly different. I also like the new "bus to airport" symbol. I do think eventually they're going to need to make the lines slimmer where three services run on the same tracks-having Blue, Orange, and Silver all together is going to make that line through the middle nonsensically thick if they keep them all the same size.


----------



## afigg

The Journalist said:


> So the Dulles extension is officially the Silver Line now? I know that's what it'd been called unofficially for years but I don't remember hearing it ever being made official.


Yes, the official name for the extension to Dulles is the Silver Line. It was the unofficial label for years, but by the time the WMATA board had to select the official name last year, the name Silver Line was in such widespread use, they really had to stick with the Silver Line.



The Journalist said:


> Also, I'm puzzled about where the Silver is going to end. I've been hearing Stadium-Armory...but if the split Orange is a placeholder for the Silver, it would make more sense to send the Silver to Largo and end the Blue at Stadium-and send both to Largo during rush period.


The plans that I have seen call for the Silver Line trains to end at Stadium-Armory. That provide direct connections from Dulles, Reston, Tysons to the city core stops. Besides not wanting to change the Blue Line route at this time, I suspect one consideration is that if Phase 2 is built as planned, it will be a very long distance run from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to East Falls Church to Stadium-Armory. Extending the trains to Largo Town Center would be a very long run for the operators. The Silver Line extension to Dulles and Rt. 772 in Ashburn will be 23 miles total (Phase 1 = 11.6 miles, Phase 2 = 11.x miles). I'll have to add the miles from the merge with the Orange line east of West Falls Church to Stadium-Armory and then Largo Town Center. Crew and equipment operational issues may be a major factor in ending the Silver Line at Stadium Armory.



The Journalist said:


> Really, though, looking at the capacity issues on the Rosslyn interchange, it looks like eventually they're going to need another set of tunnels crossing the Potomac from Arlington/Fairfax/(Loudoun?) County. Wasn't there some vague concept of running the Blue up though Georgetown and over to Union?


The concept is more than vague, alternate routes for re-routes of the Blue through DC have been studied at a projected traffic level by the WMATA planners. There are viewgraph presentations posted last year on a number of alternate extensions and new lines they have analyzed at the http://planitmetro.com/ website. The alternate route for the Blue Line that gets some traction is to have go under the Rosslyn station, under the Potomac to Georgetown with 2 new stations in Georgetown, then turn east under M street, connect at Mt. Vernon Sq, then head SE to Union station providing a second Metro line at Union station, then reconnect to the current Blue line west of Stadium Armory where the Orange/Blue cross the Anacostia.



The Journalist said:


> I do think eventually they're going to need to make the lines slimmer where three services run on the same tracks-having Blue, Orange, and Silver all together is going to make that line through the middle nonsensically thick if they keep them all the same size.


The Metro lines are a little thinner on the new map. The reports were that Lance Wyman who did the new map and the original Metro map also submitted one with Phase 1 of the Silver Line on it minus final station names. That map has not been made public, but I would expect the lines will have to be made thinner for the combined Orange/Blue/Silver segment.


----------



## Ryan

The Journalist said:


> All that said, this is likely the best Metro map I've seen. The parking symbol is something reasonably standard-a P in a box-rather than a bizarre car symbol, the unnecessary short-turn explanation boxes on the Red and Yellow are gone, and sections under construction look significantly different. I also like the new "bus to airport" symbol. I do think eventually they're going to need to make the lines slimmer where three services run on the same tracks-having Blue, Orange, and Silver all together is going to make that line through the middle nonsensically thick if they keep them all the same size.


Best official map, yes.

Cameron Booth's version of it takes the Lance Wyman map behind the woodshed and tans its hide:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/4958/the-booth-map-redesigning-wmatas-map/

Cameron Booth's:






WMATA's:


----------



## sechs

Ryan said:


> You might not have know where NoMA was before this thread, but people here certainly do.


Locals don't really need station names. It's the outsiders that need them.


----------



## sechs

jis said:


> Come on! I don't see you complaining abut SoHo not being SWoHo in New York!


Is there a SoHo station in New York?


> So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?


Those are real places; their names are real. The definition of "NoMa" is totally artificial. It's a business district not a neighborhood!


----------



## Ryan

sechs said:


> So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Those are real places; their names are real. The definition of "NoMa" is totally artificial. It's a business district not a neighborhood!
Click to expand...

NoMA is just as real as those places, the opinion of one person 3,000 miles away notwithstanding.

In the realm of "poorly nameed Metro stations", NoMA doesn't even crack the top 10.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Those are real places; their names are real. The definition of "NoMa" is totally artificial. It's a business district not a neighborhood!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NoMA is just as real as those places, the opinion of one person 3,000 miles away notwithstanding.
> 
> In the realm of "poorly nameed Metro stations", NoMA doesn't even crack the top 10.
Click to expand...

Yeah.... really!

I was in Washington DC for the last two weeks at various standards meetings and company technical conference. I did a random sample survey of people about NoMA after this heated discussion broke out on AU. I found two distinct groups of people....

(a) Washingtonians who ride the Metro. None of them were unaware of where NoMA is and thought that getting a shorter name such as NoMA for the station in question is generally a good idea.

(b) Outsider, who had no clue where NoMA is, many of whom also did no have a clue where Smithsonian is either. Actually several I got to help get them there 

I did not run into any railfan from California to get an idea on how they feel about this matter though :giggle:

So my conclusion from this admittedly unscientific field study is that this discussion is a huge storm in a teacup.

The worst that I have come across is naming stations after national heroes that carries no information about where the station is located. AFAICT usually observed where people have very little say on what is done to them or to their station.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jis said:


> So my conclusion from this admittedly unscientific field study is that this discussion is a huge storm in a teacup.


This tempest in a teapot is enough to drive one to the Center of Mass. Ave. - CoMA. 

(Which, by the way is the state one would be in if they spent any time in the center of such a busy road in DC - In a coma that is, not Massachusetts. :giggle: )


----------



## The Journalist

afigg said:


> Yes, the official name for the extension to Dulles is the Silver Line. It was the unofficial label for years, but by the time the WMATA board had to select the official name last year, the name Silver Line was in such widespread use, they really had to stick with the Silver Line.


I guess I missed when it was selected. I imagine if they'd decided to call it the Pink Line instead it would have caused an uproar.



> The plans that I have seen call for the Silver Line trains to end at Stadium-Armory. That provide direct connections from Dulles, Reston, Tysons to the city core stops. Besides not wanting to change the Blue Line route at this time, I suspect one consideration is that if Phase 2 is built as planned, it will be a very long distance run from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to East Falls Church to Stadium-Armory. Extending the trains to Largo Town Center would be a very long run for the operators. The Silver Line extension to Dulles and Rt. 772 in Ashburn will be 23 miles total (Phase 1 = 11.6 miles, Phase 2 = 11.x miles). I'll have to add the miles from the merge with the Orange line east of West Falls Church to Stadium-Armory and then Largo Town Center. Crew and equipment operational issues may be a major factor in ending the Silver Line at Stadium Armory.


That makes sense, I didn't realize just how long the Silver was going to be. The contortion the Blue does makes it look longer than it is, so I thought it was the longest route.



> The concept is more than vague, alternate routes for re-routes of the Blue through DC have been studied at a projected traffic level by the WMATA planners. There are viewgraph presentations posted last year on a number of alternate extensions and new lines they have analyzed at the http://planitmetro.com/ website. The alternate route for the Blue Line that gets some traction is to have go under the Rosslyn station, under the Potomac to Georgetown with 2 new stations in Georgetown, then turn east under M street, connect at Mt. Vernon Sq, then head SE to Union station providing a second Metro line at Union station, then reconnect to the current Blue line west of Stadium Armory where the Orange/Blue cross the Anacostia.


Like this one? Link

That shows Silver going on a new alignment (and skipping all the stations between Rosslyn and WFC) but the general concept seems sensible enough.

Though that sounds like it's about 30 years away


----------



## AlanB

afigg said:


> The plans that I have seen call for the Silver Line trains to end at Stadium-Armory. That provide direct connections from Dulles, Reston, Tysons to the city core stops. Besides not wanting to change the Blue Line route at this time, I suspect one consideration is that if Phase 2 is built as planned, it will be a very long distance run from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to East Falls Church to Stadium-Armory. Extending the trains to Largo Town Center would be a very long run for the operators. The Silver Line extension to Dulles and Rt. 772 in Ashburn will be 23 miles total (Phase 1 = 11.6 miles, Phase 2 = 11.x miles). I'll have to add the miles from the merge with the Orange line east of West Falls Church to Stadium-Armory and then Largo Town Center. Crew and equipment operational issues may be a major factor in ending the Silver Line at Stadium Armory.


As a rough guess, it looks like it's about 14 miles from West Falls Church to Largo. Toss another 23 miles on top for the Silver run to Dulles and you'd have a run of 37 miles one way.

The A train up in NYC is a little over 31 miles from 207th Street to Far Rockaway and it take almost 2 hours to make the run when running local (less if running express); so it's not like running end to end for the Silver line would be something outrageous and unheard of.


----------



## George Harris

WMATA cannot run express services because it is two tracks only throughout. Therefore there is no place for express trains to pass local trains. Note that the NYC lines that have express/local services have four tracks.


----------



## MattW

This takes us a little off topic, but is express service even possible on double track? I know WMATA runs some trains in this area with headways down in the 3-5 minute range, but what about running a third set of trains around trains with existing 7.5 and 15 minute headways? Couldn't the dispatching system thread trains onto the left-hand track around a local train stopped in a station or something?


----------



## NY Penn

All it would take is one minor delay and everything would come crashing down.

As for express, IMO <10 stops in 23 miles is already virtually an express service.


----------



## afigg

The Journalist said:


> The concept is more than vague, alternate routes for re-routes of the Blue through DC have been studied at a projected traffic level by the WMATA planners. There are viewgraph presentations posted last year on a number of alternate extensions and new lines they have analyzed at the http://planitmetro.com/ website. The alternate route for the Blue Line that gets some traction is to have go under the Rosslyn station, under the Potomac to Georgetown with 2 new stations in Georgetown, then turn east under M street, connect at Mt. Vernon Sq, then head SE to Union station providing a second Metro line at Union station, then reconnect to the current Blue line west of Stadium Armory where the Orange/Blue cross the Anacostia.
> 
> 
> 
> Like this one? Link
> 
> That shows Silver going on a new alignment (and skipping all the stations between Rosslyn and WFC) but the general concept seems sensible enough.
> 
> Though that sounds like it's about 30 years away
Click to expand...

That is another alternative they have considered: Rerouting the Silver Line to parallel the Orange Line (along I-66 perhaps), connection at Rosslyn, then under the Potomac in new tunnels to Georgetown, and then M St to Union station. They looked at a bunch of alternatives not at any serious engineering detail, but in terms of projected traffic loads and which routes people might take.

I think the alternatives looked at in the 2010, 2011 presentations can be found on the TAG (Technical Advisory Group) board link: http://planitmetro.com/category/rtsp/tag/. Other alternative routes and extensions looked at included:

-a "Brown" line diverging off of the Red Line,

-Interline connections allowing Orange/Silver Line trains to go pass Arlington cemetery and then across the Yellow line bridge and east on the Green Line,

-Beltway line going ALL the way around DC following the Beltway and paralleling it in some parts. Mind-bogglingly expensive, but I have to give them points for modeling how many people might take it.

-Alternate new routes for the Yellow Line in DC,

-Blue Line to Georgetown and then SE to Constitution Avenue to Union Station,

-Orange, Blue, Green line extensions.

This is all in the very early stages of considering what the next steps are after the Silver Line is completed.

Other projects that have to be considered in traffic load analysis are the Purple light rail line (tentatively planned for circa 2020-2021 completion), the DC Streetcar plans, the BRT and Streetcar projects in Arlington & Alexandria.


----------



## sechs

jis said:


> Outsider, who had no clue where NoMA is, many of whom also did no have a clue where Smithsonian is either.


If you showed them a Metro map, I bet they could have figured out which stop to get off at to go to the Smithsonian, however.


----------



## sechs

Ryan said:


> NoMA is just as real as those places, the opinion of one person 3,000 miles away notwithstanding.


You clearly don't understand the difference between "the stadium that the Yankees play in is named Yankee Stadium" and "we branded an existing area of an over one hundred year old city with the name 'NoMa.'"
If you ask anyone around where I live, where is the Lake House neighborhood, I sincerely doubt that you'd find anybody who has any idea. However, it's a real, legally defined neighborhood here. However, it's a location that was made up when some people wanted a historical district; residents of the area are more likely to define themselves as living in Delmas Park, which doesn't appear on a map anywhere. When they put in a light rail stop in the area, they didn't call it "Lake House," even though that's the area's name; it was named "San Fernando," after the street to which it is closest.

This is a similar situation. A bunch of businesses wanted to brand their area with a name; and so, "NoMa" was created out of thin air. If you browbeat people enough, they'll use the name; people did eventually figure out where the "Ogilvie Transportation Center" is. However, the government really shouldn't be doing that. Instead of forcing a name onto the people, they should be using a name that the people would use themselves.


----------



## afigg

AlanB said:


> As a rough guess, it looks like it's about 14 miles from West Falls Church to Largo. Toss another 23 miles on top for the Silver run to Dulles and you'd have a run of 37 miles one way.
> 
> The A train up in NYC is a little over 31 miles from 207th Street to Far Rockaway and it take almost 2 hours to make the run when running local (less if running express); so it's not like running end to end for the Silver line would be something outrageous and unheard of.


I don't have a DC Metro mileage map, so I traced the Orange/Blue lines on Google Earth. From where the Silver Line will merge with the Orange Line, it is about 13.8 miles to Stadium-Armory. Largo is about 8 miles on the Blue Line from Stadium-Armory.

So the Silver Line will be about 23 + 13.8 = ~37 miles from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to Stadium-Armory. Add 8 miles to Largo, it would be a ~45 mile trip. If the A train is the longest route in the NYC Subway system, the Silver Line (if/when it is fully built) might be the longest heavy rail route in the US even without going east of Stadium-Armory. What is the longest line or route in Chicago?

If it is not distance, then it may be predicted passenger traffic. The Silver Line will provide a one seat ride from Dulles to Tysons Corner to the city core through Capitol Hill to Stadium-Armory. How many passengers from Benning Road or Capitol Heights (east of Stadium-Armory) will be traveling to Tysons Corner or to Dulles? A few will, sure, but how many? People getting on at the eastern end of the Blue Line will be able to get to Dulles or Tysons with one station switch - with a whole bunch to stations to choose for switching to a Silver Line train.


----------



## Ryan

sechs said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Outsider, who had no clue where NoMA is, many of whom also did no have a clue where Smithsonian is either.
> 
> 
> 
> If you showed them a Metro map, I bet they could have figured out which stop to get off at to go to the Smithsonian, however.
Click to expand...

True, but depending on which museum they were going to, they probably could have gotten off at a closer stop.



sechs said:


> You clearly don't understand the difference between "the stadium that the Yankees play in is named Yankee Stadium" and "we branded an existing area of an over one hundred year old city with the name 'NoMa.'"


I understand, I just don't care. It doesn't make a difference. Especially since that area of the city didn't have an existing name that was well known by folks.


> This is a similar situation. A bunch of businesses wanted to brand their area with a name; and so, "NoMa" was created out of thin air. If you browbeat people enough, they'll use the name; people did eventually figure out where the "Ogilvie Transportation Center" is. However, the government really shouldn't be doing that. Instead of forcing a name onto the people, they should be using a name that the people would use themselves.


Well it is a good thing the government isn't doing that, then.


----------



## AlanB

afigg said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a rough guess, it looks like it's about 14 miles from West Falls Church to Largo. Toss another 23 miles on top for the Silver run to Dulles and you'd have a run of 37 miles one way.
> 
> The A train up in NYC is a little over 31 miles from 207th Street to Far Rockaway and it take almost 2 hours to make the run when running local (less if running express); so it's not like running end to end for the Silver line would be something outrageous and unheard of.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a DC Metro mileage map, so I traced the Orange/Blue lines on Google Earth. From where the Silver Line will merge with the Orange Line, it is about 13.8 miles to Stadium-Armory. Largo is about 8 miles on the Blue Line from Stadium-Armory.
> 
> So the Silver Line will be about 23 + 13.8 = ~37 miles from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to Stadium-Armory. Add 8 miles to Largo, it would be a ~45 mile trip. If the A train is the longest route in the NYC Subway system, the Silver Line (if/when it is fully built) might be the longest heavy rail route in the US even without going east of Stadium-Armory. What is the longest line or route in Chicago?
Click to expand...

While I admit my calculation was a rough guess, I took the mileage from West Falls to Largo (this was the rough estimate) and added it to the mileages you supplied for the Silver I & II sections. So I'm quite surprised to see/hear that things have now jumped to 45 miles.



afigg said:


> If it is not distance, then it may be predicted passenger traffic. The Silver Line will provide a one seat ride from Dulles to Tysons Corner to the city core through Capitol Hill to Stadium-Armory. How many passengers from Benning Road or Capitol Heights (east of Stadium-Armory) will be traveling to Tysons Corner or to Dulles? A few will, sure, but how many? People getting on at the eastern end of the Blue Line will be able to get to Dulles or Tysons with one station switch - with a whole bunch to stations to choose for switching to a Silver Line train.


This isn't about the convenience of Silver line riders being able to get to Largo with a one seat ride.

This is about the current Blue line passengers who board at stations between Stadium & Largo who will now have less frequent service if indeed the Silver's turn back at Stadium. Remember, they are now sending some former Blue line trains over the Yellow line tracks. IIRC, I'm posting from 2212 so it's too hard to go look, there are now 5 fewer Blue line trains per hour during rush hour going to Largo. For now the Orange line trains are filling that gap. But if the Silver's only run to Stadium, then they will not be filling that gap and those going further than Stadium will have less frequent service.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

AlanB said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a rough guess, it looks like it's about 14 miles from West Falls Church to Largo. Toss another 23 miles on top for the Silver run to Dulles and you'd have a run of 37 miles one way.
> 
> The A train up in NYC is a little over 31 miles from 207th Street to Far Rockaway and it take almost 2 hours to make the run when running local (less if running express); so it's not like running end to end for the Silver line would be something outrageous and unheard of.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a DC Metro mileage map, so I traced the Orange/Blue lines on Google Earth. From where the Silver Line will merge with the Orange Line, it is about 13.8 miles to Stadium-Armory. Largo is about 8 miles on the Blue Line from Stadium-Armory.
> 
> So the Silver Line will be about 23 + 13.8 = ~37 miles from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to Stadium-Armory. Add 8 miles to Largo, it would be a ~45 mile trip. If the A train is the longest route in the NYC Subway system, the Silver Line (if/when it is fully built) might be the longest heavy rail route in the US even without going east of Stadium-Armory. What is the longest line or route in Chicago?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I admit my calculation was a rough guess, I took the mileage from West Falls to Largo (this was the rough estimate) and added it to the mileages you supplied for the Silver I & II sections. So I'm quite surprised to see/hear that things have now jumped to 45 miles.
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it is not distance, then it may be predicted passenger traffic. The Silver Line will provide a one seat ride from Dulles to Tysons Corner to the city core through Capitol Hill to Stadium-Armory. How many passengers from Benning Road or Capitol Heights (east of Stadium-Armory) will be traveling to Tysons Corner or to Dulles? A few will, sure, but how many? People getting on at the eastern end of the Blue Line will be able to get to Dulles or Tysons with one station switch - with a whole bunch to stations to choose for switching to a Silver Line train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This isn't about the convenience of Silver line riders being able to get to Largo with a one seat ride.
> 
> This is about the current Blue line passengers who board at stations between Stadium & Largo who will now have less frequent service if indeed the Silver's turn back at Stadium. Remember, they are now sending some former Blue line trains over the Yellow line tracks. IIRC, I'm posting from 2212 so it's too hard to go look, there are now 5 fewer Blue line trains per hour during rush hour going to Largo. For now the Orange line trains are filling that gap. But if the Silver's only run to Stadium, then they will not be filling that gap and those going further than Stadium will have less frequent service.
Click to expand...

I believe that it is yellow line trains going on the blue, not the other way around. I think that while it would be long and take a lot of equipment, the Silver trains should go beyond Stadium-Armory. I think that the Blue and Orange should both run to their respective points, with the Silver Line splitting equally and serving both of them. This way, the stations past Stadium will not have any cutback in service, and there will need to be less transfers in general.


----------



## Ryan

AlanB said:


> This is about the current Blue line passengers who board at stations between Stadium & Largo who will now have less frequent service if indeed the Silver's turn back at Stadium. Remember, they are now sending some former Blue line trains over the Yellow line tracks. IIRC, I'm posting from 2212 so it's too hard to go look, there are now 5 fewer Blue line trains per hour during rush hour going to Largo. For now the Orange line trains are filling that gap. But if the Silver's only run to Stadium, then they will not be filling that gap and those going further than Stadium will have less frequent service.


That end of the blue line isn't heavily used, so the less frequent service isn't going to be a huge deal.



johnny.menhennet said:


> I believe that it is yellow line trains going on the blue, not the other way around. I think that while it would be long and take a lot of equipment, the Silver trains should go beyond Stadium-Armory. I think that the Blue and Orange should both run to their respective points, with the Silver Line splitting equally and serving both of them. This way, the stations past Stadium will not have any cutback in service, and there will need to be less transfers in general.


Alan is right, Blue Line trains from Franconia-Springfield will be taking the Yellow Line route up through the center of the city.
Your idea would be a good one if the ridership was equal across all of the lines, but WMATA is doing it this way to run the trains where the demand for them exists.


----------



## AlanB

Ryan said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is about the current Blue line passengers who board at stations between Stadium & Largo who will now have less frequent service if indeed the Silver's turn back at Stadium. Remember, they are now sending some former Blue line trains over the Yellow line tracks. IIRC, I'm posting from 2212 so it's too hard to go look, there are now 5 fewer Blue line trains per hour during rush hour going to Largo. For now the Orange line trains are filling that gap. But if the Silver's only run to Stadium, then they will not be filling that gap and those going further than Stadium will have less frequent service.
> 
> 
> 
> That end of the blue line isn't heavily used, so the less frequent service isn't going to be a huge deal.
Click to expand...

It may not be a big deal in terms of how crowded things are, but it is still a big deal to someone used to having a train come every 2 and a half minutes that now comes every 5 minutes; or whatever the actual timings will be.

And there is an additional consideration here; right now they're only pulling 5 Blue line trains per hour during rush hour. If we get a 1 to 1 correlation with the Silvers, that translates to one train every 12 minutes on the Silver line branch. I suspect that will not be enough service out on that line to meet the demand. I think that Metro is simply easing people into this new pattern and that when the time comes we'll see even more Blue line trains pulled from the Blue and sent via the Yellow line.

That in turn means even more reduced headways between Stadium-Armory and Largo Town Center. Plus who's to say that demand on that end of the line won't increase too, especially if the Purple line gets built.



Ryan said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that it is yellow line trains going on the blue, not the other way around. I think that while it would be long and take a lot of equipment, the Silver trains should go beyond Stadium-Armory. I think that the Blue and Orange should both run to their respective points, with the Silver Line splitting equally and serving both of them. This way, the stations past Stadium will not have any cutback in service, and there will need to be less transfers in general.
> 
> 
> 
> Alan is right, Blue Line trains from Franconia-Springfield will be taking the Yellow Line route up through the center of the city.
Click to expand...

To be more clear, some trains that are now Blue line trains are being "re-colored" to Yellow and will largely now operate on the Yellow line, but on the Southern end of the line they will take the switch to the Blue line (instead of the Yellow) and service the final two stops; Van Dorn & Franconia-Springfield.


----------



## afigg

Ryan said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is about the current Blue line passengers who board at stations between Stadium & Largo who will now have less frequent service if indeed the Silver's turn back at Stadium. Remember, they are now sending some former Blue line trains over the Yellow line tracks. IIRC, I'm posting from 2212 so it's too hard to go look, there are now 5 fewer Blue line trains per hour during rush hour going to Largo. For now the Orange line trains are filling that gap. But if the Silver's only run to Stadium, then they will not be filling that gap and those going further than Stadium will have less frequent service.
> 
> 
> 
> That end of the blue line isn't heavily used, so the less frequent service isn't going to be a huge deal.
Click to expand...

It will be a nuisance to those taking the Blue Line east of the Anacostia River. I had not thought about the service frequency hit those Blue Line stations will get. Because Prince George's County has done a poor job of taking advantage of the opportunity the Metro stations offer for higher density Transit Oriented Development and the increased tax base & revenue that comes with it, the stations in Prince George's are among the lower ridership stations in the system. With new leadership in the county and a more transit focused MD state government, that should change. Which should eventually result in TOD around those Blue Line stations and increased passenger base. When that starts to take place, WMATA should be flexible in adding service frequencies to the east end of the Blue Line.

I have not looked in depth at what the plans are for Phase 1 of the Silver Line which is 5 stations, 11.5 miles and scheduled to start by end of 2013, early 2014. They could have the Phase 1 Silver trains take over the Orange Line Rush Plus split past Stadium Armory and down the Blue Line to Largo Town Center. That would be around 33-34 miles.

One idea I saw floated on-line for the completed Silver Line is that the planners should build (or have built) a reverse switch track east of the Tysons East/McLean station. Much of the traffic on the Silver Line is going to be entirely on the Silver Line between Tysons, Reston, Herndon, Dulles, Ashburn. People will take the Silver to commute to Tysons from further west or to Tysons or Reston for shopping and evening activities. As Tysons evolves into the dense satellite city the plans call for, it will be a main destination for many further west on the Silver Line. If there was a turn-around switch and 3rd center track at the eastern end of Tysons, they could have, for example, every 3rd service frequency on the Silver Line turnaround at Tysons East/McLean and head back towards Dulles and Ashburn. That would alleviate the traffic load where the Silver, Orange, Blue lines meet at Rosslyn.

But what I have read, this idea is not part of the planning process, likely because in the transportation planners thinking, of course, all the trains have to go through the city core. Another one, which is touched on in the TAG presentations, is an interline connection at Rosslyn (expensive for sure) that would allow a Virginia only line running from Ashburn/Dulles to Huntington on the Yellow Line. Would allow direct Alexandria, Crystal City connections to Tysons and Dulles and take traffic load off of the core.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Ryan said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is about the current Blue line passengers who board at stations between Stadium & Largo who will now have less frequent service if indeed the Silver's turn back at Stadium. Remember, they are now sending some former Blue line trains over the Yellow line tracks. IIRC, I'm posting from 2212 so it's too hard to go look, there are now 5 fewer Blue line trains per hour during rush hour going to Largo. For now the Orange line trains are filling that gap. But if the Silver's only run to Stadium, then they will not be filling that gap and those going further than Stadium will have less frequent service.
> 
> 
> 
> That end of the blue line isn't heavily used, so the less frequent service isn't going to be a huge deal.
> 
> 
> 
> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that it is yellow line trains going on the blue, not the other way around. I think that while it would be long and take a lot of equipment, the Silver trains should go beyond Stadium-Armory. I think that the Blue and Orange should both run to their respective points, with the Silver Line splitting equally and serving both of them. This way, the stations past Stadium will not have any cutback in service, and there will need to be less transfers in general.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Alan is right, Blue Line trains from Franconia-Springfield will be taking the Yellow Line route up through the center of the city.
> Your idea would be a good one if the ridership was equal across all of the lines, but WMATA is doing it this way to run the trains where the demand for them exists.
Click to expand...

The Blue Line is going over the bridge with the yellow?

Edit: OK, I went and read a WMATA press release about the service and the reason I was confused is that they said that the trains would be Blue Line trains going to Greenbelt and being identified as a Yellow. Thanks for trying to clarify, but my sleepy teenage brain sometimes won't hold in all of the info it should.


----------



## AlanB

johnny.menhennet said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is about the current Blue line passengers who board at stations between Stadium & Largo who will now have less frequent service if indeed the Silver's turn back at Stadium. Remember, they are now sending some former Blue line trains over the Yellow line tracks. IIRC, I'm posting from 2212 so it's too hard to go look, there are now 5 fewer Blue line trains per hour during rush hour going to Largo. For now the Orange line trains are filling that gap. But if the Silver's only run to Stadium, then they will not be filling that gap and those going further than Stadium will have less frequent service.
> 
> 
> 
> That end of the blue line isn't heavily used, so the less frequent service isn't going to be a huge deal.
> 
> 
> 
> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that it is yellow line trains going on the blue, not the other way around. I think that while it would be long and take a lot of equipment, the Silver trains should go beyond Stadium-Armory. I think that the Blue and Orange should both run to their respective points, with the Silver Line splitting equally and serving both of them. This way, the stations past Stadium will not have any cutback in service, and there will need to be less transfers in general.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Alan is right, Blue Line trains from Franconia-Springfield will be taking the Yellow Line route up through the center of the city.
> Your idea would be a good one if the ridership was equal across all of the lines, but WMATA is doing it this way to run the trains where the demand for them exists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Blue Line is going over the bridge with the yellow?
Click to expand...

Yes, select Blue line trains will become Yellow line trains and start at Franconia and then run over the bridge on the Yellow line to the terminus. So on the current Blue line at the last two stations, you will now see two colors much like you do for the rest of the line in Virginia.


----------



## Ryan

AlanB said:


> ]It may not be a big deal in terms of how crowded things are, but it is still a big deal to someone used to having a train come every 2 and a half minutes that now comes every 5 minutes; or whatever the actual timings will be.


True, but it'll be a big deal for a relatively small number of people.


> That in turn means even more reduced headways between Stadium-Armory and Largo Town Center. Plus who's to say that demand on that end of the line won't increase too, especially if the Purple line gets built.


If demand changes, they can always adjust the mix of orange/blue trains to accommodate. If anything, the purple line will increase demand at New Carrollton, as that will be the eastern terminus of the line. The blue line will not be impacted by the purple line.


----------



## sechs

Ryan said:


> This is a similar situation. A bunch of businesses wanted to brand their area with a name; and so, "NoMa" was created out of thin air. If you browbeat people enough, they'll use the name; people did eventually figure out where the "Ogilvie Transportation Center" is. However, the government really shouldn't be doing that. Instead of forcing a name onto the people, they should be using a name that the people would use themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it is a good thing the government isn't doing that, then.
Click to expand...

So are they not naming the station "NoMa," or are you just being flippant?


----------



## jis

sechs said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a similar situation. A bunch of businesses wanted to brand their area with a name; and so, "NoMa" was created out of thin air. If you browbeat people enough, they'll use the name; people did eventually figure out where the "Ogilvie Transportation Center" is. However, the government really shouldn't be doing that. Instead of forcing a name onto the people, they should be using a name that the people would use themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it is a good thing the government isn't doing that, then.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So are they not naming the station "NoMa," or are you just being flippant?
Click to expand...

I think he is just pulling your leg, since NoMA is neither the first time nor the last time that such name changes have occurred or will occur. You can continue whistling in the wind meanwhile. 

City governments and real estate interests are always closely intertwined and that is one of the main mechanisms by which cities try to enhance their tax base. So it is to be expected that cities will work with the real estate interests to enhance visibility of their projects where it serves the city's purposes. Street and locality names are changed all the time based on such considerations. If a subway station gets caught in the act, so be it. If you can't understand that simple fact, then it is hard to have an intelligent discussion.

Some of the more famous changes of names in cities include renaming of Longacre Square to Times Square after New York Times built their building at the location in 1904. The change of name of a huge locality to World Trade Center in downtown Manhattan over the objections of the local residents, including change of name of a subway station and a PATH station. This was a real estate development by the government itself through its Port Authority. The change of name of a Green Line Station in Boston to Haynes after Haynes Center opened, and also the name of Mechanic station was changed to Prudential Station based on Prudential's real estate development in Back Bay. And even the change of the name of 34th St station to 34th St. Pennsylvania after Pennsylvania Railroad chose to do their real estate development including their rail station in Manhattan adjacent to it. Stuff like this happens all the time. Now of course they are all established names and "real" to use your term, but they were not always so.


----------



## Ryan

sechs said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a similar situation. A bunch of businesses wanted to brand their area with a name; and so, "NoMa" was created out of thin air. If you browbeat people enough, they'll use the name; people did eventually figure out where the "Ogilvie Transportation Center" is. However, the government really shouldn't be doing that. Instead of forcing a name onto the people, they should be using a name that the people would use themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it is a good thing the government isn't doing that, then.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So are they not naming the station "NoMa," or are you just being flippant?
Click to expand...

Neither. You're failing to understand that this isn't a "new" name. "The government" didn't invent the "NoMA" name. WMATA didn't invent the NoMA name. They're not "forcing a name onto the people". They're naming the station after the neighborhood that the station is located in. The "NoMA" name has been used to describe the area for years.

I'm not sure why that's so hard to wrap your head around.


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> Some of the more famous changes of names in cities include renaming of Longacre Square to Times Square after New York Times built their building at the location in 1904.


That's it. I refuse to fall under the thumb of the government forcing these contrived names on me. I'll never refer to Longacre Square as "Times Square" ever again.


----------



## The Journalist

"New York Avenue" was a terrible name for that station. New York Avenue is several miles long and the station isn't even on that street, it's on Florida. Even if it weren't an organic name, "NoMa" at least means a neighborhood rather than a very long street. That, and there seems to be a movement to rename street-named stations for their neighborhood-in addition to the NoMa rename, King Street is now King Street/Old Town.


----------



## afigg

Ryan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the more famous changes of names in cities include renaming of Longacre Square to Times Square after New York Times built their building at the location in 1904.
> 
> 
> 
> That's it. I refuse to fall under the thumb of the government forcing these contrived names on me. I'll never refer to Longacre Square as "Times Square" ever again.
Click to expand...

In that case, if you are in the town that now goes by the name of Truth or Consequences, NM, insists on calling it Hot Springs, NM. The local guvmint officials renamed their town after the game show in the 1950s. How crassly commercial of them! :lol:

Quite a lot of fuss being raised by poster sechs over a created name, NoMa, for a neighborhood. The area did not have an identity and now it does with quite a lot of construction with office and residential buildings going up. Also should note, that NoMa includes the Uline Arena, directly east of the tracks and easily seen from the trains pulling in and out of Union Station. The Uline arena, currently used as an indoor parking lot and for placing large (illegal) billboards on it, has a claim to fame as the site of the first concert by the Beatles in the US.


----------



## Tracktwentynine

Sorry to be late to the party. I've been very busy of late, and haven't been checking the site enough. I think I need to have Ryan page me whenever WMATA gets a thread here.

*The Largo Branch Headways*

It has been mentioned before, but I wanted to try to clarify the service patterns, especially with respect to the Largo branch of the Blue Line.

Currently the Largo branch (the "G Route") is served by 10 trains per hour (TPH) in each direction during rush hour. This means a train comes every 6 minutes in each direction. With the June service changes, *3* existing Blue Line trains per hour in each direction will become Yellow Line trains running from Franconia to Greenbelt (and Greenbelt to Franconia). This means that without any influx of new trains, the Largo branch would see a reduction to 7 TPH (8.5 min headway). So as a result, the newly added Orange Line trains will go to Largo, keeping the number of trains the same (10 TPH).

Once the Silver Line opens, some semblance of the June 2012 service pattern will need to be maintained or the terminals of the Silver and Blue lines will need to be swapped. Because unless some Silver trains continue to Largo, the G Route will see reduced headways. And in that case, it makes more sense to send _all_ Silver trains to Largo, and terminate _all_ Blue trains at Stadium/Armory, since the headways match better.

Let's look at the numbers. At any given point, a Metro track is limited to 26 trains per hour. The likely service pattern for the Blue/Orange/Silver subway is:


10 TPH Orange
10 TPH Silver
6 TPH Blue
With that service pattern, since both the New Carrollton and Largo branches need to have 10 TPH minimum, you'd be sending 6 TPH Blue and 4 TPH Silver to Largo, while terminating 6 TPH Silver at Stadium/Armory. That presents logistical (scheduling) problems, and make wayfinding more complicated. It just makes more sense to run all Silvers to Largo at all times and terminate all Blues at Stadium at all times.

Perhaps this graphic will also help clarify things: (left: current, right: after June 2012). Read more here.



 



*Showing the **Full** Silver Line on the Map*

First off, this means 2 different things. (1) Showing the future route of the Silver Line between K&N Junction (East Falls Church) and D&G Pocket (Stadium/Armory). (2) Showing the future route of Phase II (Reston - Ashburn).

_Showing Downtown_

Personally, I think that the new map should show the Silver Line running through Downtown. I have frequently encountered people who believe that the Silver Line will be _ending_ at East Falls Church, forcing riders to change to an Orange Line train to continue to Arlington and Downtown DC. Showing the line as under construction would help clarify that the line will indeed go downtown. However, the Metro Board decided that it might confuse riders. And they didn't want people to stand around for half an hour waiting for a train that won't be coming until 2014.

_Showing Phase II_

On this one, Metro should not show the second phase. At this point, it's not even clear if Phase II will get built. Loudoun County is currently threatening to pull out of the project, and Governor McDonnell and the Virginia Legislature failed to provide some of the promised state money. Until the project is a sure thing, Metro shouldn't put it on the map.

*New Map Concepts*

I'd also take the time to point out that the website I write for (and help run) held a Metro map redesign contest. You can see a bunch of great takes on the redesign. Some of the ideas even made it into the final design, including the idea of splitting long station names into a primary element and a secondary element (to be shown as a subtitle).

Here's the map I created for the contest:





*_Note: Above, I said I'd not put Phase II on the map, however Phase II of the Silver Line is shown on my map because it was a requirement for the contest._

*Naming That Stop Between Union Station and Rhode Island Avenue*

I see that Amtrak Unlimited is just a fertile ground for arguing about NoMa as everywhere else on the web. As Ryan will surely attest, shorter station names are one of my hobby horses. I want stations to have clear and concise names.

The station I generally refer to as "Florida Avenue" is a difficult station to name. First off, New York Avenue does not belong on the station name. New York Avenue stretches across the city, so that descriptor does not give a good indication of where the station is located. But moreover, the station is not located on New York Avenue, or is it even the closest station to New York Avenue. Mount Vernon Square and Metro Center are _both_ closer (walking distance) to New York Avenue than the station in question.

Florida Avenue is not ideal either. Florida Avenue also stretches across the city, and the station could be anywhere along that line.

Personally, I favor neighborhood names in general when it comes to naming transit stations. "Columbia Heights" is superior to "Georgia Avenue" (especially since 4 stations are under Georgia Avenue). "Brookland" is better than "Rhode Island Avenue".

The real issue with the station that we're discussing here (which I am trying not to actually name) is that the place it is located does not really have a historic neighborhood name. It was largely rail yards and industrial buildings. Some have suggested resurrecting a historic name that referred to a nearby area which has fallen into disuse, "Swampoodle".

So the real question is, what do you do when there aren't any good streets to name the station after and there's no defined neighborhood name?

Well, the answer is that you pick the best one you can. NoMa is brand that many recognize. The BID has been around for over a decade. Just because some people are unfamiliar with the name does not make it unacceptable.

I've found that many people in the region know neighborhoods simply because they have Metro station names. For example, most people I talk to know of Petworth and Columbia Heights (both on the Metro map). Not as many people are familiar with Park View, which _is_ on the Metro system, but which does not have its name appended to a station. If there was a Metro station in 14th Street Heights, it might be as recognized a neighborhood as Cleveland Park.

Putting NoMa on the Metro map will make it a recognized name within a few years. And people will know where it is because it's _on a map_. Most tourists have no idea where anything is, anyway. Locals either know it or they don't, and if they don't, they'll learn it (except for the geographically challenged, who wouldn't be able to find it, no matter what you called it).

There's a lot of sturm and drang about NoMa being on the Metro map, and if you have a better suggestion, feel free to suggest it. But don't just object because it's "contrived". After all, every place name on the planet is contrived. Some have just been around longer than others.

*Characters Matter Less than Concepts*

Some have suggested that we could shorten the station name by just writing it as NY Av/FL Av/GU.

Unfortunately, that station name is the same length. Characters don't matter, since the stop is not going to be announced as "N-Y Av, F-L, Av, G-U." It will be announced as "New York Avenue, Florida Avenue, Galluadet University." It's the number of concepts in the station name that really matter, rather than the number of characters.

Imagine you're a tourist and you hear this announcement over the loudspeaker:

"Due to scheduled trackwork, we're currently experiencing delays between Dunn Loring Merrifield and West Falls Church Virginia Tech University of Virginia."

If you don't know the system, is that a list of 5 stations or 2? Or 4? And isn't it odd that Blacksburg and Charlottesville are on the same line? I had no idea that the Metro went that far.

As far as I'm concerned, "King Street" = "King St.", "U Street" = "U St", and "Rhode Island Avenue" = "R.I. Av"


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## DET63

Ryan said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it were up to me, I'd call it "New York Avenue" and be done with it.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.
> 
> NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.
> 
> That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.
Click to expand...

Aren't there stations in New York that share a name because they are on the same street but several blocks apart and thus served by different subway lines?


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## jis

In New York the subway lines are named after Avenues, which most local folks know. So typically 34th St on 7th Ave line won't be confused with 34th St. On 8th Ave. line, etc. the fact that the trunk lines are aligned with Avenues and have distinct names associated with them makes this work OK.


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## trainman74

jis said:


> In New York the subway lines are named after Avenues...



Sure, the 1 is named after 1st Avenue, the 2 is named after 2nd Avenue, the 3 is named after 3rd Avenue...





(Yes, I do know what you actually mean.)


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## The Davy Crockett

Today was the first day of Rush+. Thankfully I had no reason to ride Metro today. 

In this article it is being billed as the largest service change in Metro's history. From the article, it sounds that overall, things went okay during the AM commute.

I almost hate to bring this up, :giggle: but it is now officially NoMa/Gallaudet U.


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## Tracktwentynine

The Davy Crockett said:


> I almost hate to bring this up, :giggle: but it is now officially NoMa/Gallaudet U.


Technically, it's:

NoMa/Galluadet U

New York Avenue

The New York Avenue subtitle will be there for a year, to get people acclimated, and then it will go away.


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## afigg

Tracktwentynine said:


> Technically, it's:
> 
> NoMa/Galluadet U
> 
> New York Avenue
> 
> The New York Avenue subtitle will be there for a year, to get people acclimated, and then it will go away.


With the Phase 1 Silver Line slated to start service in December, 2013 (or early 2014), I would expect that will be the next time the maps and signs will get changed. So I would expect the New York Avenue subtitle to stay around until then. When the Phase 2 Silver Line opens (whenever that happens), we can look forward to being able to take the Metro from NoMa to Innovation Coppermine. After enough time, that will sound perfectly normal. :lol:

Edit: my bad. I voted for Coppermine because I thought it would be unique, but the Fairfax Cty board and staff choose Innovation Center for the Rt. 28 station. Brain freeze on my part.


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## Tracktwentynine

afigg said:


> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Technically, it's:
> 
> NoMa/Galluadet U
> 
> New York Avenue
> 
> The New York Avenue subtitle will be there for a year, to get people acclimated, and then it will go away.
> 
> 
> 
> With the Phase 1 Silver Line slated to start service in December, 2013 (or early 2014), I would expect that will be the next time the maps and signs will get changed. So I would expect the New York Avenue subtitle to stay around until then. When the Phase 2 Silver Line opens (whenever that happens), we can look forward to being able to take the Metro from NoMa to Coppermine. After enough time, that will sound perfectly normal. :lol:
Click to expand...

I actually think "Innovation" is the oddest of them all.

"The next station is *Innovation*. Doors will open on the left. Train to Stadium/Armory."


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## afigg

Tracktwentynine said:


> I actually think "Innovation" is the oddest of them all.
> 
> "The next station is *Innovation*. Doors will open on the left. Train to Stadium/Armory."


I fixed my post. You are right, the Rt. 28 station will be named Innovation Center. For some reason, I had Coppermine stuck in my head as the station name when I was jotting off my post. Both options are odd names initially for the station, but there is no established community name for the location. Rt. 28 would not work very well as the route is some 49 miles long.

So even better, whenever Phase 2 of the Silver Line opens, people will be able to take the Metro from NoMa to Innovation (Center)!


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## The Journalist

Is the station name "Innovation Center" or just "Innovation?" "Innovation Center" is a reasonable enough name; just "Innovation" would sound bizarre.


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## Tracktwentynine

The Journalist said:


> Is the station name "Innovation Center" or just "Innovation?" "Innovation Center" is a reasonable enough name; just "Innovation" would sound bizarre.


Just "Innovation".


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## afigg

Tracktwentynine said:


> The Journalist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the station name "Innovation Center" or just "Innovation?" "Innovation Center" is a reasonable enough name; just "Innovation" would sound bizarre.
> 
> 
> 
> Just "Innovation".
Click to expand...

No, the station name will be Innovation Center. I think it is a bit silly for a Metro station name, but better than naming it after a local politician or selling the station naming rights to raise a few bucks.

The station names for the Fairfax Count stations on the Silver Line have been voted on and approved by the WMATA board, so they are official. In order from the first station in Tysons Corner/McLean, the names will be:

McLean

Tysons Corner

Greensboro

Spring Hill

Wiehle-Reston East

Reston Town Center

Herndon

Innovation Center

The Dulles Airport station should be easy: Dulles Airport. The fate of the Phase 2 extension into Loudoun County is not yet known, so the defining the official names for the two stations in Loudoun at Rt. 606 and Rt. 772/Ryan Road can wait.


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## Tracktwentynine

afigg said:


> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Journalist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the station name "Innovation Center" or just "Innovation?" "Innovation Center" is a reasonable enough name; just "Innovation" would sound bizarre.
> 
> 
> 
> Just "Innovation".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, the station name will be Innovation Center. I think it is a bit silly for a Metro station name, but better than naming it after a local politician or selling the station naming rights to raise a few bucks.
Click to expand...

You're right. I went back and checked.

My confusion came from the fact that the Fairfax County Planning Board recommended just "Innovation", but the Board of Supervisors adopted "Innovation Center".


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## The Journalist

So now there'll be a "Center" station on the far west (Innovation), far east (Largo Town) and north (Medical) sections of the map as well as the....center (Metro) of it, as well as Federal Center SW (side note: I'm surprised they left this one alone; strange station name, considering there's also "Federal Triangle" on the same lines). I'm waiting for proposals to rename Van Dorn Street "[somethingorother] Center" so there's one in every direction.


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## The Davy Crockett

*THIS THREAD IS WELL OVER A YEAR OLD, BUT...*

Here is a link to washingtonpost.com that has the latest, if not greatest, version of DC Metro's iconic map, with the soon-to-open portion of the Silver Line included, plus some more 'tweeking.'


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## George Harris

Remember, the provision for Metro down the Dulles Access Highway is 50 years old by now. The provision for the Silver Line - Orange Line junction west of East Falls Church is over 40 years old by now. The opening of the first piece of Metro goes back about 36 to 8 years by now. At that time it was thought that the length of the system might not go beyond 25 miles and the ultimate system would be 98 miles with the end of lines beyond Rockville and Addison Road dotted in. However, all end of lines other than at Glenmont were built in such a way that they can easily be extended.

By the way, there is a provision at the south end of the Pentagon Station for a Columbia Pike line junction.


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## The Davy Crockett

George Harris said:


> By the way, there is a provision at the south end of the Pentagon Station for a Columbia Pike line junction.


I like looking at those tunnels going into and out of the Pentagon station. I need to put my hand up to block the light to see them. I wonder if people wonder what I'm 'up to.' :unsure:

On a different note, and I almost hate to bring up the "NoMa Station" again, but I have a friend named Mel who moved to that area.

He is now 'Mel of NoMa.' :blink:

hboy:


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## afigg

The Davy Crockett said:


> *THIS THREAD IS WELL OVER A YEAR OLD, BUT...*
> 
> Here is a link to washingtonpost.com that has the latest, if not greatest, version of DC Metro's iconic map, with the soon-to-open portion of the Silver Line included, plus some more 'tweeking.'


Nothing wrong with resurrecting an old, but appropriate thread. The projected start of revenue service for Phase 1 of the Silver Line is now early 2014 in the business plan presented at the Sept WMATA board meeting. Probably January or early February 2014, but we will have to wait for a formal announcement. The good news in the plan is start of deliveries of the 7000 series cars in 2014 with the 64 cars for SL Phase 1 and the start of replacement of the 1000 and 4000 series cars. The series 1000 cars could be gone in 3 years.

On the new map, it is much improved over the earlier drafts. PlanitMetro has posted the map with a PNG image version * for those who want an image file. BTW, there was a item in a newspaper article that WMATA was planning to have an open house day for the 5 new stations prior to the start of service. No details beyond that.

edit: the PlanItMtetro site has a really big bitmap file, so be careful if you download it.


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## afigg

George Harris said:


> Remember, the provision for Metro down the Dulles Access Highway is 50 years old by now. The provision for the Silver Line - Orange Line junction west of East Falls Church is over 40 years old by now. The opening of the first piece of Metro goes back about 36 to 8 years by now. At that time it was thought that the length of the system might not go beyond 25 miles and the ultimate system would be 98 miles with the end of lines beyond Rockville and Addison Road dotted in. However, all end of lines other than at Glenmont were built in such a way that they can easily be extended.
> 
> By the way, there is a provision at the south end of the Pentagon Station for a Columbia Pike line junction.


Yes, the extension to Dulles has been in the someday plans for a long, long time. No one can accuse the local governments of rushing to build the line out to Dulles. Although I'm sure someone will or has made a "Why are we rushing to build this?" complaint in a public comment meeting. 

The stub tunnels for the Columbia Pike extension are mentioned in the Metro 2025 plans, not for extending a line down Columbia Pike because that is dead, but as a storage/turnaround track for short turning trains for weekend track work interruptions. The disruptions from the weekend single tracking and segment shutdowns have made it apparent that the system was built with too few pocket tracks to maintain better service frequencies, so the 2025 plan is to build additional pocket or turnaround tracks in the system in the 2021 to 2025 period. The Columbia Pike stub tunnels provide a place to add one, although I don't know how long the stub tunnels are.


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## George Harris

afigg said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, the provision for Metro down the Dulles Access Highway is 50 years old by now. The provision for the Silver Line - Orange Line junction west of East Falls Church is over 40 years old by now. The opening of the first piece of Metro goes back about 36 to 8 years by now. At that time it was thought that the length of the system might not go beyond 25 miles and the ultimate system would be 98 miles with the end of lines beyond Rockville and Addison Road dotted in. However, all end of lines other than at Glenmont were built in such a way that they can easily be extended.
> 
> By the way, there is a provision at the south end of the Pentagon Station for a Columbia Pike line junction.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the extension to Dulles has been in the someday plans for a long, long time. No one can accuse the local governments of rushing to build the line out to Dulles. Although I'm sure someone will or has made a "Why are we rushing to build this?" complaint in a public comment meeting.
> 
> The stub tunnels for the Columbia Pike extension are mentioned in the Metro 2025 plans, not for extending a line down Columbia Pike because that is dead, but as a storage/turnaround track for short turning trains for weekend track work interruptions. The disruptions from the weekend single tracking and segment shutdowns have made it apparent that the system was built with too few pocket tracks to maintain better service frequencies, so the 2025 plan is to build additional pocket or turnaround tracks in the system in the 2021 to 2025 period. The Columbia Pike stub tunnels provide a place to add one, although I don't know how long the stub tunnels are.
Click to expand...

The stub offs at the south end of the Pentagon are just long enough so that the construction of the cut and cover boxes beyond them can be done without affecting the current operation. Since extending these to add a pocket would be all underground and would require approach tracks long enough to get things to the same level, remember, that the tracks in the Pentagon station are not on the same level, this would be a most expensive pocket track to build.


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## afigg

George Harris said:


> The stub offs at the south end of the Pentagon are just long enough so that the construction of the cut and cover boxes beyond them can be done without affecting the current operation. Since extending these to add a pocket would be all underground and would require approach tracks long enough to get things to the same level, remember, that the tracks in the Pentagon station are not on the same level, this would be a most expensive pocket track to build.


Yes, extending the 2 stub tunnels to a new single pocket track tunnel would not be a small project, if that is what the WMATA planners are thinking about. I don't know exactly where the stub tunnels are with respect to the surface, but looking at the Pentagon Station area in Google earth with the track route lines shown (or their approximate location), it looks as if the stub tunnels are under the parking lot to the south of the Pentagon? There are no buildings directly to the west, just a massive amount of highway infrastructure. Might be able to build the extended pocket track with all cut and cover, tearing up only a part of a large parking lot in the process.
While not an inexpensive project, would be far less disruptive and less costly than adding a pocket track to the Orange/Blue or Green or Yellow line on the underground tunnels in the city. If there are places where the tunnels are far enough apart to stick a pocket track in-between. But the proposal is to study possible pocket tracks. The result may be that they run the initial cost estimates pass the WMATA board who decide that any new underground pocket tracks are just too expensive for the gain.


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## The Davy Crockett

From Politico's Morning Transportation report of 9/18/13:



> You've probably seen geographically-correct versions of the Metro map that show just how long the Red Line really is (a lot longer than you'd think by looking at the compact and tidy map hanging in trains around the city). But most of those accurate maps used Google or another online mapping service as the base. Reddit.com user Stupidgit has made a map (including the Silver Line) that's geographically accurate AND done in the familiar style of the official Metro map. It really puts things into perspective...


Link to the map here.


----------

