# Sunset Limited's Future



## henryj (Apr 16, 2009)

*News I received today. Anyone know anything about this? If this rumor is true, then Amtrak is truly a bunch of idiots. Personally, as with everything Amtrak does, I am sure politics are involved in this more than anything, that is if it is true.*

_From SMART member: Bob Manning has informed me that Amtrak is planning on sending the Sunset to SAS and then up to Chicago as the Eagle, and then send a business type day coach on to NOL. The target month may be as early as June._

_What a crappy way to "run a railroad"!!_

_ _

_From TXARP Member:_

_Hope this isn't true. If it is, I am totally discouraged. If they do this, they might as well cancel the Sunset Limited altogether and just run the Texas Eagle from Chicago to Los Angeles. There can't be much demand for day coach that goes between San Antonio and Houston. _

_ _

_Wonder if they are thinking about a train from New Orleans to Houston to Dallas/Fort Worth? Financially, that would make some sense. But if they aren't going east from New Orleans, New Orleans will become almost isolated. The terminal point of the City of New Orleans and the Crescent is just that: a dead end._

_ _

_Think about the Texas Eagle. If it continues to arrive in SAS at 10:25 p.m., a through train could be in El Paso around daybreak. Don't know if it can make Tucson and Phoenix in daylight from El Paso, but guess it is possible. Then an overnight to LA._

_ _

_This would still allow me to travel from SAS to LAX, but it would destroy any hopes of a national system train across the south. Why would connectivity across the South be eliminated from the national system? Who gains from extending the Texas Eagle as a replacement of the Sunset Limited? Does a coach from SAS to HOU really make any sense? All questions that need to be asked and addressed._

_ _

_ _

_P.S. Additional thought: Assuming Manning is correct, if one takes a day coach to New Orleans, it's safe to assume that no national train will return from New Orleans to Orlando. The argument would be made that the Sunset Limited either no longer goes to New Orleans, or that any service east of NOL is a new train and needs to be state-supported. This ties in well with what SHSRA (is that even close?) wants. _

_ _

_Second additional thought: This is a good way to split support for the Sunset Limited. The folks out west may be happy being able to get to SAS, CHI, and NOL, the latter even in a day coach, so they will accept it. Those of us who need to travel east find this unacceptable, but we have lost the ability to make it a "national" issue. _

_ _

_Sorry about the negative analysis, but that's how this looks to me. The best we can do is stay on top if it and voice our concerns at every opportunity._


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## the_traveler (Apr 16, 2009)

Last month, I went from NOL to SAS - to connect to the TE up to CHI. Many of those boarding in NOL were in my car - and most seat checks said either SAS or HOS! And one of the few boarding on the way (I believe he boarded in New Iberia) that got on in my car bought a ticket on board (so I heard where he was headed). He was connecting in SAS to the TE and going to Austin.

Mind you that the scheduled arrival time in SAS is 3 AM. (#1 actually arrived about 2 AM.) So instead of departing NOL at 11:55 AM, what's wrong with it departing at like 7 or 8 AM, arriving SAS at 10 or 11 PM - and being a day coach? :huh: (Oh, #1 arrived HOS about 30 minutes early, so the stop was well over 1 hour. That would also cut down on the arrival time into SAS - so maybe it could be 9 PM! That may mean the TE could leave earlier!  )


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## George Harris (Apr 16, 2009)

Sounds more like hot air spinning the rumor mill.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 16, 2009)

George Harris said:


> Sounds more like hot air spinning the rumor mill.


Give the man a prize. Leave it to Amtrak to generate rumors faster than their own Acela BOTH when they have NO money and when they have some ready to go to work...


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## ScottC4746 (Apr 16, 2009)

George Harris said:


> Sounds more like hot air spinning the rumor mill.


I think so too because I am booked from NOL-LAX on 5 June. In fact I just tried to book 16 Aug NOL-LAX and it let me for train 1.  I am all confused now. What is your source of this information?


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## henryj (Apr 16, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds more like hot air spinning the rumor mill.
> ...


Supposedly from Robert Manning who is on the board at RailPAC (Rail Passenger Association of California and Nevada). http://www.railpac.org/

That's all I know which is why I asked the question.


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## Amtrak839 (Apr 16, 2009)

I think this is BS. The Sunset's ridership and OTP numbers are up, and Amtrak just named it as a train that they plan to improve in 2009. That doesn't sound like a route that they would want to cut back or remove.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 16, 2009)

henryj said:


> ScottC4746 said:
> 
> 
> > George Harris said:
> ...


Now that, my friend, is a rumor mill... in all definitions of the phrase.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Apr 16, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds more like hot air spinning the rumor mill.
> ...


But are the rumors getting generated faster than California HSR?


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 16, 2009)

Providing that everything is run on a daily basis, a combined Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited and daytime New Orleans-Houston-San Antonio and Orlando-Jackson-New Orleans trains might actually improve service for more riders along the Sunset corridor. Of course, there would have to be guaranteed connection between the New Orleans-San Antonio and San Antonio=Los Angeles trains. In the long run, establishing service between Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston and Houston and Galveston would be an even better idea.


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## George Harris (Apr 16, 2009)

MikefromCrete said:


> In the long run, establishing service between Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston and Houston and Galveston would be an even better idea.


When pre-Amtrak Dallas Houston passenger service died, the fastest trains were doing it in just over 4 hours. When Amtrak tried it, they were taking about 6 hours and not making that very reliably. IF and ONLY IF the time can be donw in the 4 hour range again is this worth doing. The BNSF line could manage it with a good deal of trackwork, but that misses College Station. The best time ever through College Station was around 4 hours 25 minutes and service did not even survive to 1960. To get this line under 4 hours would requrie some curve straightening and a speed limit above 79 mph.


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## Sam31452 (Apr 17, 2009)

A daily running day coach from NOL to SAS makes more sense than a tri-weekly full scale LD train, as it provides a better level of service for lower cost (for Amtrak). Also a late night departure in SAS to LAX would provide better service to Tucson and Maricopa.


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## AlanB (Apr 17, 2009)

This idea and others like it have been bandied about quite a bit on various RR forums, including this one. One of the more popular variations was to extend the Crescent to SAS and then combine the Sunset-Eagle for a daily train CHI-LAX. I rather doubt that Amtrak will make any big moves, before they release the study on restoring service east of NOL.

Additionally based upon the news recently published in Amtrak Ink, which talked about improvements to the Sunset Limited, I'd say that all those various ideas are now off the table. The only questions that I believe remain unanswered are; 1) will the Sunset go daily anytime soon?, 2) what will happen east of NOL?


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## ScottC4746 (Apr 17, 2009)

AlanB said:


> This idea and others like it have been bandied about quite a bit on various RR forums, including this one. One of the more popular variations was to extend the Crescent to SAS and then combine the Sunset-Eagle for a daily train CHI-LAX. I rather doubt that Amtrak will make any big moves, before they release the study on restoring service east of NOL.
> Additionally based upon the news recently published in Amtrak Ink, which talked about improvements to the Sunset Limited, I'd say that all those various ideas are now off the table. The only questions that I believe remain unanswered are; 1) will the Sunset go daily anytime soon?, 2) what will happen east of NOL?


Actually doing a search on "sunset" on thet site actually shows a daily full set run LAX-MCO (sorry I don't know the RR code for Orlando so the airport code will have to do). They even talk about adding transets to make this happen.

Now, knowing this group like I have seemed to hear, they are more of a "we wish this would happen" type group...of course this is a statement of a non member.


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## ScottC4746 (Apr 17, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > This idea and others like it have been bandied about quite a bit on various RR forums, including this one. One of the more popular variations was to extend the Crescent to SAS and then combine the Sunset-Eagle for a daily train CHI-LAX. I rather doubt that Amtrak will make any big moves, before they release the study on restoring service east of NOL.
> ...


Actually I have an idea for the Sunset Limited...reroute it from Key West-New York-Chicago to New Orleans to Dallas to Houston-San Antontio-to-LAX-Seattle-St. Louis-Tampa-Keywest


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## jis (Apr 17, 2009)

AlanB said:


> This idea and others like it have been bandied about quite a bit on various RR forums, including this one. One of the more popular variations was to extend the Crescent to SAS and then combine the Sunset-Eagle for a daily train CHI-LAX. I rather doubt that Amtrak will make any big moves, before they release the study on restoring service east of NOL.


I agree



> Additionally based upon the news recently published in Amtrak Ink, which talked about improvements to the Sunset Limited, I'd say that all those various ideas are now off the table. The only questions that I believe remain unanswered are; 1) will the Sunset go daily anytime soon?, 2) what will happen east of NOL?


At the Mid-Atlantic NARP Meeting in Bordentown NJ a couple of weeks back, a featured speaker was Drew Galloway from Amtrak. He spent a few minutes talking about NOL - JAX study, of which the report is due in June. He said the study is down to three options:

1. Extend the Sunset as was the case in the past.

2. Separate train from NOL to JAX - ORL but oriented towards connecting with the Sunset.

3. Separate train from NOL to JAX - ORL but oriented towards connecting with the CONO.

He mentioned that according to current thinking option 1 is least likely because of the logistics involved in timekeeping etc. He gave the distinct impression that the current state of thinking was leanign towards recommending choice 3, but cautioned that the final recommendation will be known only when the report is actually published.


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## wayman (Apr 17, 2009)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > This idea and others like it have been bandied about quite a bit on various RR forums, including this one. One of the more popular variations was to extend the Crescent to SAS and then combine the Sunset-Eagle for a daily train CHI-LAX. I rather doubt that Amtrak will make any big moves, before they release the study on restoring service east of NOL.
> ...


I like the bit where there is no "option 4, continue the temporary service suspension"...

The idea of connecting with the CONO is a good one.


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## saxman (Apr 17, 2009)

wayman said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


How about connect with both the CONO and the SL? Unless they are talking about thru trains. Both the CONO and Sunset arrive in the afternoon and you can easily have an evening departure to the east. In fact it'd be pretty much the same as before. Coming back it can arrive mid morning and connect in time for both. I mean if its going to connect with the CONO, may as well wait a bit longer for the Sunset.


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## jis (Apr 17, 2009)

wayman said:


> I like the bit where there is no "option 4, continue the temporary service suspension"...


Well since the study as requested by Congress is for alternatives for restoring service, I suppose it would be somewhat daft to be talking about not restoring service as an alternative way of satisfying the request for restoring service.


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## MrFSS (Apr 17, 2009)

jis said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > I like the bit where there is no "option 4, continue the temporary service suspension"...
> ...


Number 4 should be - why has it taken so long to resolve this issue one way or the other - and have them answer that when they choose one of the other three.


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## jis (Apr 17, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > wayman said:
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Here's the answer ........

Dog ate the homework. It took a while to take the dog to the vet to extract the homework


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## -Jamie- (Apr 18, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds more like hot air spinning the rumor mill.
> ...


Slightly off topic, but I'm booked from NOL-LAX on that day as well. It'll be my boyfriend's first time on Amtrak.  Hopefully it's a pleasant experience for him.


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## ourlouisiana (Apr 20, 2009)

From our vantage point, we understand the problem with restoration EAST of NOL can be summed up with 4 letters, C S X T.

Now that UP has shaped up and corrected the problem getting the SL across it's tracks, and it runs ON TIME (!!!!) CSXT gets the award.

We understand that they are dragging their feet with restoring acceptable track along the Gulf Coast because "another hurricane will wipe them out".

Didn't take NS but 90 days to restore the 6 mile bridge damaged by Katrina, and restore service to NOL, but CSXT seems not to be willing to give up NOL completely.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 20, 2009)

ourlouisiana said:


> From our vantage point, we understand the problem with restoration EAST of NOL can be summed up with 4 letters, C S X T.
> Now that UP has shaped up and corrected the problem getting the SL across it's tracks, and it runs ON TIME (!!!!) CSXT gets the award.
> 
> We understand that they are dragging their feet with restoring acceptable track along the Gulf Coast because "another hurricane will wipe them out".
> ...


Your understanding is wrong. Chessie-Seaboard Expanded Transportation gave Amtrak authorization to restore service more than two years ago. The obstacles have nothing to do with CSX. I'm not their biggest fan, believe me, but this is not their fault. This is Amtrak, and Amtrak alone.


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## saxman (Apr 20, 2009)

ourlouisiana said:


> From our vantage point, we understand the problem with restoration EAST of NOL can be summed up with 4 letters, C S X T.
> Now that UP has shaped up and corrected the problem getting the SL across it's tracks, and it runs ON TIME (!!!!) CSXT gets the award.
> 
> We understand that they are dragging their feet with restoring acceptable track along the Gulf Coast because "another hurricane will wipe them out".
> ...


Yes, what GML said. CSX had those tracks back in service by April after Katrina, IIRC. They opened it up to Amtrak then. Amtrak since then has refused to restore saying its too expensive or station in Mobile is not good enough, or the states need to pay that service, etc.


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## AlanB (Apr 20, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ourlouisiana said:
> 
> 
> > From our vantage point, we understand the problem with restoration EAST of NOL can be summed up with 4 letters, C S X T.
> ...


GML is correct. CSX gave Amtrak permission to restore the Sunset east of NOL, just about six months after Katrina hit New Orleans. The failure to restore the service is all Amtrak. Nobody else gets the blame.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Apr 21, 2009)

ourlouisiana said:


> From our vantage point, we understand the problem with restoration EAST of NOL can be summed up with 4 letters, C S X T.
> Now that UP has shaped up and corrected the problem getting the SL across it's tracks, and it runs ON TIME (!!!!) CSXT gets the award.
> 
> We understand that they are dragging their feet with restoring acceptable track along the Gulf Coast because "another hurricane will wipe them out".
> ...



If I remember correctly it only took NS 36hrs to restore the bridge, I think the rest of the 90 days was rebuilding the tracks along the shore that were completely washed away. The bridge was all welded rail and was pretty much intact in the bottom of the lake, so the just lifted the tracks up and reset them on the bridge and added ballast. NS actually ran shuttle trains of flatcars loaded with vehicles in and out of NOL because the tracks were the only way in and out for quite a while on the east side.


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## manchacrr (Apr 21, 2009)

I was in New Orleans the other day to pick up tickets for my trip this summer. I asked the station attendant about the restoration of the Sunset to Orlando. He said that the most recent news was that several stations along the route were damaged/neglected and that it would take up to two years to rebuild all of the stations. As for Mobile, the city actually tore down the station last year, so there is no station now.


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## George Harris (Apr 21, 2009)

saxman66 said:


> ourlouisiana said:
> 
> 
> > From our vantage point, we understand the problem with restoration EAST of NOL can be summed up with 4 letters, C S X T.
> ...


CSX had a little more work to do to get their line back in service than NS did. After NS crosses the mouth of Lake Ponchitrain, they head inland and after a few more miles their line was virtually unscathed.

Most of the CSX line between New Orleans and Mobile, over 100 miles altogether was all but obliterated. For several of the bridges, it was not just washed off track, but washed off spans. Thw two mile long concrete bridge at Bay St. Louis lost most or all of the spans, with only the steel swing span staying in place. These spans could not be reset, new span sections had to be manufactured. There was also washed out roadbeds, in some places leaving a "was there ever really a railroad here?" appearance. And then therre was the second hurricane that came through Pensacola. There were people several hundred feet inland and 30 or more feet higher than the shore of Escambia Bay, which is not directly exposed to the Gulf, that had crossties in their yards from the CSX main track which followed the shoreline.

This was a work of months, not weeks.


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## George Harris (Apr 21, 2009)

trainman668 said:


> As for Mobile, the city actually tore down the station last year, so there is no station now.


So? At least the slab next to the track downtown would be far better than the slab next to the track in the freight yard that passes for a station in Beaumont TX.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 21, 2009)

George Harris said:


> trainman668 said:
> 
> 
> > As for Mobile, the city actually tore down the station last year, so there is no station now.
> ...


You'd have to convince local taxpayers that-- remember you can't have checked baggage at an Amshack or a slab-- you need a station with people. It's too bad, some of this stimulus money could have gone to restoring the stations on this part of teh route-- would have created jobs for all kinds or workers, architects, and artists-- just like FDR did with the post offices.

But alas...


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 21, 2009)

George Harris said:


> saxman66 said:
> 
> 
> > ourlouisiana said:
> ...


Either way CSX announced that service could resume and it didn't. Katrina seems to be just a convenient excuse for Amtrak to cut SSL service.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2009)

George Harris said:


> trainman668 said:
> 
> 
> > As for Mobile, the city actually tore down the station last year, so there is no station now.
> ...


Or for that matter the slab next to the track in the middle of nowhere at Borie WY that used to serve as a station for Cheyenne WY.


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## George Harris (Apr 21, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > This was a work of months, not weeks.
> ...


Which is exactly what I was trying to get across. It took them a lot more work than it took NS, but when they were done, all involved could say that the line was in the best condition it has ever been in. And Amtrak continued with :"the dog ate my homework" excuses.;


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 21, 2009)

George Harris said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> 
> > George Harris said:
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And then with time the stations began dilapidated and now they can't be used-- just another excuse.


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## ourlouisiana (Apr 21, 2009)

Apologies to the CSXT fans, from our spot on the still operating western SL, we understood that CSXT was the problem. Quess we fell for the "disinformation".


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## AlanB (Apr 21, 2009)

ourlouisiana said:


> Apologies to the CSXT fans, from our spot on the still operating western SL, we understood that CSXT was the problem. Quess we fell for the "disinformation".


No apologies needed. 

I'm not sure that most Amtrak fans are exactly fans of CSX, which at times seems to do their very best to delay Amtrak and impose rules that no other RR host imposes, I know that I'm not the biggest fan of CSX for sure. Give me CN or BNSF any day before CSX.

But most of us are also not going to let someone take the blame when it isn't their fault, even if it does mean putting the blame on our favorite son, Amtrak.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2009)

trainman668 said:


> I was in New Orleans the other day to pick up tickets for my trip this summer. I asked the station attendant about the restoration of the Sunset to Orlando. He said that the most recent news was that several stations along the route were damaged/neglected and that it would take up to two years to rebuild all of the stations. As for Mobile, the city actually tore down the station last year, so there is no station now.


Obvious Mobile was jeolous of Beaumont's enviromental friendly train stop.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 21, 2009)

AlanB said:


> ourlouisiana said:
> 
> 
> > Apologies to the CSXT fans, from our spot on the still operating western SL, we understood that CSXT was the problem. Quess we fell for the "disinformation".
> ...


Yeah. CSX and I don't get along, but all of this SSL business runaround has been Amtrak for nearly three years now and I continue to get upset when I see the TT printed with the SSL schedule on it that says "Service to Maimi _temporarily_ closed due to...." for awhile they directly blames Katrina which was misleading (an understatement) on Amtrak's part.


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## ourlouisiana (Apr 22, 2009)

Quess we'll get political here, BUT we have to interject.....

Too many people have blamed Katrina on all types of things wrong. Other places have been hit by natural disaster and have rebuilt their lives - albeit with pain and suffering .... tornadoes and flooding occur every year throughout the Midwest, hurricanes hit the East and Gulf coast each year. Even in southwest Louisiana we had Katrina and Rita, Lily 2 years previous to K/R, and Gustav and Ike last year. We personally know many that were wiped out by the winds and floods of Rita. That was 4 years ago !!!!

Quit whining and get on with life....... even corporate Amtrak. If CSXT has rebuilt the R-O-W, then Amtrak shouldn't use the excuse of not having stations, when Beaumont has not had one forever. And we're sure that there are many other locations that have Amslabs.

When we passed through New Orleans on the Crescent in 2007 with our grandkids, there was debris all along the Peoples Ave canal. That was 2 years after Katrina. When we passed last weekend, while a lot was gone, there was still debris.......that was almost 5 years ago.

We know we'll get heat from this one.


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## had8ley (Apr 22, 2009)

Guest said:


> trainman668 said:
> 
> 
> > I was in New Orleans the other day to pick up tickets for my trip this summer. I asked the station attendant about the restoration of the Sunset to Orlando. He said that the most recent news was that several stations along the route were damaged/neglected and that it would take up to two years to rebuild all of the stations. As for Mobile, the city actually tore down the station last year, so there is no station now.
> ...


Obviously gives grounds for at least a $2 billion package of stimulus money. $50 for a used Amshack and the rest to fly all the officials from Washington to break ground.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 22, 2009)

People use what excuses they can. The Sunset East has been a political disaster area for years, and I'm talking before Katrina. It was frequently annulled. It was cut back from Miami to Orlando, and then eventually, I think, Jacksonville. When it completed its run, which was rare, it was usually 12 hours late or more. Most of all, it was a huge money pit at a point where Amtrak had none because a guy named Bush was doing his damnedest to kill the whole system.

Amtrak has been looking to kill that pain in their keister, or at least restructure it, for years and years. And gee whilikers, here comes this natural disaster that provides a gift-wrapped excuse right into their laps. They took it.

Honestly, we should be grateful for what we do have rather than what we lost. In 2001, we came within inches of a complete Amtrak liquidation. I don't think many people on this forum are aware just how close we came. 9-11 was a horrible thing, but to be honest with you, I'm positive if it didn't happen, there wouldn't be ANY Amtrak right now. Maybe the NEC. MAYBE.

Funding after that was limited at best. Bush tried with all his might to kill Amtrak. We all know this. Yet over the course of his presidency, with a republican majority for much of it I might add, we only lost four small sections of route- the _Three Rivers_ west of PGH (Youngstown, Akron, Fostoria, and Napanee , the _Kentucky Cardinal_ south of Indianapolis (Janesville and Louisville), the inside route in Florida (Waldo, Ocala, and Wildwood), and the Sunset Limited. Further, lets be realistic about it- the Three Rivers and Silver Star's separate routing were probably the most redundant of Amtrak's long distance routes- the stations lost are all within an hours drive of other stations.

So if you ask me, Kummant didn't do a great job improving Amtrak service. But I don't think Claytor coulda done it under this set of circumstances. What he did do was do an exceptional job of keeping Amtrak mostly intact through the most hostile environment it has ever faced. He lead it to this point, and for that we should be thankful.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2009)

That is a good analysis GML, and I mostly agree with it. Actually though I think it was Gunn that called Bush's bluff, and it was pretty touch and go on that one. Kummant just played the role of caretaker, and he surprisingly was not much worse, as many feared he might be. He actually was surprisingly good considering.


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## NativeSon5859 (Apr 22, 2009)

I posted this on another forum, but it deserves to be posted in this thread as well.

In an ideal world, they should have a daily NOL-ORL train and something like a 3X weekly NOL-JAX train which would connect with the Silver Star for points North. I made a proposed schedule for both.

Gulf Coast Limited

Tri weekly

Dep NOL: 6:00am

Arr JAX: 9:30pm

Dep JAX: 8:10am

Arr NOL: 10:50pm

The above schedules would connect to/from the Silver Star in JAX. Could be a small train, just a couple of Amfleet 2 coaches and a cafe car. It'd give the people living in Gulfport/Biloxi, Mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, etc. expanded access to the Amtrak system.

The daily Gulf Wind would dep. NOL at 5:50pm allowing for faster connections from the SL and CONO and would serve the Gulf Coast at better times...on the return, train departs ORL around 5:00pm and arrives NOL at 11:10am...this would require adjusting the WB #1 schedule out of NOL to, say, 1:15pm....this later time out of ORL would, again, provide service for all Gulf Coast markets (Pensacola, just due to its location along the route, would get the least desirebale times, but it wouldn't be served at 1/2/3/4am at least) at better times.

In any case, the chances for two trains are probably slim and none, and slim just left the building, but it's fun to think outside the box a bit.

I get the feeling that we should see some form of restored svc between NOL-ORL in a year's time.


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## AlanB (Apr 22, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The Sunset East has been a political disaster area for years, and I'm talking before Katrina. It was frequently annulled. It was cut back from Miami to Orlando, and then eventually, I think, Jacksonville.


No, the Sunset was still terminating in Orlando (or Sanford if it was really late), when Katrina hit.



Green Maned Lion said:


> Further, lets be realistic about it- the Three Rivers and Silver Star's separate routing were probably the most redundant of Amtrak's long distance routes- the stations lost are all within an hours drive of other stations.


I'm thinking that you mean the Silver Palm/Palmetto, as the Silver Star has always been on the same route (the A-Line) thorugh Florida. It was the Palm/Palmetto that worked the S-Line.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 22, 2009)

AlanB said:


> I'm thinking that you mean the Silver Palm/Palmetto, as the Silver Star has always been on the same route (the A-Line) thorugh Florida. It was the Palm/Palmetto that worked the S-Line.


For a short time after the Palmetto was cut back, the star was routed over the S-line. Its right here on the 2004 time table.

Always? The Star was routed over the S-line many times prior to that, too. I've just randomly picked up an old schedule from desk here, Effective 4/25/82. In that schedule, as now, the Palmetto runs only to Savannah as a day train.

The Silver Star and Silver Meteor run as they do now to Jacksonville. At JAX, the Silver Star splits in twain.

91 Silver Star:

JAX 5:28

Waldo 6:32 A

Ocala 7:17 A

Wildwood 7:46A

Winter Haven 8:46A

Sebring 9:26A

West Palm Beach 10:56A

Deerfield Beach 11:30A

Ft Lauderdale 11:50A

Hollywood 12:04P

Miami 12:43P

81 Silver Star:

JAX 5:58A

Palatka 7:04A

Deland 7:52A

Sanford 8:14A

Winter Park 8:36A

Orlando 9:07A

Kissimmee 9:28A

Lakeland 10:12A

Tampa 11:04A

97 Silver Meteor:

JAX 9:48 A

Palatka 10:52A

Deland 11:38A

Sanford 11:59A

Winter Park 12:25P

Orlando 12:55P

Kissimmee 1:15P

Winter Haven 2:22P

Sebring 3:03P

Okeechobee 3:36P

West Palm Beach 4:39P

Deerfield Beach 5:03P

Delray Beach 5:18P

Ft Lauderdale 5:37P

Hollywood 5:52P

Miami 6:32P

And, of course, 87 Silver Meteor split at Kissimee,

Kissimmee 1:15P

Lakeland 2:27P

Tampa 3:21P


----------



## PaulM (Apr 22, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> lets be realistic about it- the Three Rivers and Silver Star's separate routing were probably the most redundant of Amtrak's long distance routes- the stations lost are all within an hours drive of other stations.


I would have to disagree regarding the Three Rivers. Granted it was a second class train and I don't even remember whether its eastern terminus was Philadelphia or NY; but a second CHI - NY train would be high on my wish list for new routes, but not necessarily another one stopping at Cleveland in the middle of the night.

Also, one hour away by car is not close to my way of thinking. I seem to recall a recent thread where you took a courageous stand (amen brother!) against the prevailing idea that any method of transportation other than an automobile is akin to a commie pinko plot. I believe you were disagreeing with someone who thought a station should out in sprawl-land, not be near downtown.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 22, 2009)

PaulM said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > lets be realistic about it- the Three Rivers and Silver Star's separate routing were probably the most redundant of Amtrak's long distance routes- the stations lost are all within an hours drive of other stations.
> ...


There's no way for a train going from the East Coast to CHI can stop in Ohio with daylight calling hours. The closest we get is the LSL which had to depart at 10PM CST! You don't get any riders if your train gets into NYP at the dead of night, not to mention the practical approach from a railroading standpoint.

And yes, the Three Rivers was vastly different from the LSL, with stops all through PA and OH, it picked up those in the middle between the LSL to the North and the Cardinal to the South.

Take ALC-- its in the middle of nowhere, and yet it serves people from Youngstown, Akron, Canton, and Columbus. I am sometimes the only pax getting on or off (or both) at ALC on some runs on the CL.... that's not due to people not wanting to take the train its because A) with call times at 01:30 and 03:34 nobody knows it exists! and B ) its a forty to ninety minute drive from any one of those cities in the DEAD of night.


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## henryj (Apr 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> There's no way for a train going from the East Coast to CHI can stop in Ohio with daylight calling hours.


I don't understand this statement. If the Pennsylvanian was overnight between New York and Pittsburgh, then you serve Ohio and on to Chicago in daylight hours both directions. The Pennsy ran trains this way for years. Likewise on the NYC route if you ran overnight between Buffalo and New York then you served Ohio and on to chicago in daylight hours both ways. The NYC ran schedules like this also. If you get a second train between New York and Chicago they might try putting one of them on this kind of schedule.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 22, 2009)

henryj said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > There's no way for a train going from the East Coast to CHI can stop in Ohio with daylight calling hours.
> ...


But what time do you leave NYP? It would be close to midnight, and I promise you then everybody in PA would complain because they're serviced in the middle of the night-- either way one of the two states has to be in the dark I am afraid.


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## henryj (Apr 22, 2009)

NativeSon5859 said:


> I posted this on another forum, but it deserves to be posted in this thread as well.
> In an ideal world, they should have a daily NOL-ORL train and something like a 3X weekly NOL-JAX train which would connect with the Silver Star for points North. I made a proposed schedule for both.
> 
> Gulf Coast Limited
> ...


The chances of this are "slim and none" because you don't have a clue as to what the timing over that route is. It's 617 miles from New Orleans to Jacksonville and it takes the train 17 hours. It is another 147 miles from JAX to ORL and that takes another 3 1/2 hours. So your train leaving NOL at 6AM, a time so early that no one would use it, would put the train into JAX at midnight and ORL at 4AM. A ridiculous schedule. The return leaving at 8:10AM from JAX would not get to NOL until midnight and would have to have left ORL at 4AM. The only schedule that works between ORL, JAX and NOL is an overnight one. WB you have to leave ORL around midday for a morning arrival in NOL to make all the connections. EB you have to leave late a night arriving at JAX the next afternoon and ORL that night. Other than that you are talking corridor type coach trains that only go part way. The current Sunset schedule arriving in NOL at 4PM is an abortion caused by the UP foul ups and extreme padding and needs to be changed back to it's original pre-Katrina schedule which would have it arrive in NOL late evening.


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## MrFSS (Apr 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Check out this 1949 PRR Table. Pretty decent depart from NYC and pass through Ohio and Indiana times.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 22, 2009)

The Admiral doesn't seem like a bad train, can we revive it?


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 22, 2009)

PaulM said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > lets be realistic about it- the Three Rivers and Silver Star's separate routing were probably the most redundant of Amtrak's long distance routes- the stations lost are all within an hours drive of other stations.
> ...


You misunderstand me. For Chicago alone, I want 3 daily trains on the Broadway, three daily trains on the Water Level Route, and atleast one train running the Cutoff. I want Amtrak trains running all over the place at all hours. I think the system should be about the size it was before the Carter cuts in foot print, with atleast two round trips per route.

HOWEVER, if we are going to cut routes, cutting the Three Rivers, which as you said was bracketed by the Cardinal, Capitol, and Lake Shore, makes a hell lot more sense then cutting, say, the Crescent. We lost one, which may be coming back- i've heard rumors of a resurrected Broadway Limited being a priority in Amtrak- but trust me, we had to lose a few Viewliner routes, and as you said, the Three Rivers was traversing territory already relatively well covered. Compared to, say, Wyoming.

The cuts they made were the right ones, given that they needed to make cuts. And they did.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The Admiral doesn't seem like a bad train, can we revive it?


Maybe after they bring back the Broadway.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Apr 22, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> You misunderstand me. For Chicago alone, I want 3 daily trains on the Broadway, three daily trains on the Water Level Route, and atleast one train running the Cutoff. I want Amtrak trains running all over the place at all hours. I think the system should be about the size it was before the Carter cuts in foot print, with atleast two round trips per route.


Can Amtrak get the ridership to justify that many trains without new HSR alignments?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 22, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > The Admiral doesn't seem like a bad train, can we revive it?
> ...


I'd take the Broadway IF they made a couple more stops in Ohio with full service-- coaches, sleepers, and at least one checked baggage stop before CLE.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 23, 2009)

Pfui. You'd take the Broadway either way. I'll stand for the routes getting there first. Amtrak is still in **** shape. Do you realize the Amtrak hocked their most valuable building, New York City Penn Station, to make pay roll? We're far from that now, but the effects of Great Idiot Warrington will be with us for some time.

If we can cover the major cities of Ohio with ANY trains, if we cover all the US cities that should have trains with trains, if we freakin' cover PHOENIX, we can start talking about convenient times for non-terminus cities. Get the trains running to them. Then we can figure out how to have trains at sane hours.


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## cpamtfan (Apr 23, 2009)

I was just thinking of a train like the Gotham Limited, exept it would lave NYP around 10pm, make Phili by 11, then would only make Harrisburg, Altoona, and Johnstown to Pittsburgh, then at PGH, it would spit, with one going either via the ex B&O or that windy route to Lima, Fort Wayne, etc. and another section going to Cleveland, Toledo, up to Detroit where it would pick up local coaches to Chicago. I'm not sure what equipment or which stations it would sstop at. Thats my idea.

cpamtfan-Peter


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 23, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Pfui. You'd take the Broadway either way. I'll stand for the routes getting there first. Amtrak is still in **** shape. Do you realize the Amtrak hocked their most valuable building, New York City Penn Station, to make pay roll? We're far from that now, but the effects of Great Idiot Warrington will be with us for some time.
> If we can cover the major cities of Ohio with ANY trains, if we cover all the US cities that should have trains with trains, if we freakin' cover PHOENIX, we can start talking about convenient times for non-terminus cities. Get the trains running to them. Then we can figure out how to have trains at sane hours.


Excuse me, I'm sorry that Ohio cities aren't as big as Phoenix but let's look that Columbus has NO service, and Akron and Canton metro areas have to be served by ALC. Cin-city only has the Cardinal, three times a week, and Cleveland and ALC (which serve most of OH's population) have horrible calling times and have HAD horrible calling times for years.

Frankly Ohio-ians are fed up with it. Strickland, the most popular gov. in the nation (last time I checked approval ratings for govs.) is taking heat from everybody for not getting a proper rail service set up in Ohio, that's why he lobbied hard with Senator Brown to get funding for the Tri-C corridor which is part of the HSR plan.


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## AlanB (Apr 23, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Pfui. You'd take the Broadway either way. I'll stand for the routes getting there first. Amtrak is still in **** shape. Do you realize the Amtrak hocked their most valuable building, New York City Penn Station, to make pay roll? We're far from that now, but the effects of Great Idiot Warrington will be with us for some time.
> ...


I believe that you're misreading GML's statements ALC, he's all for increasing service to Ohio and it's cities. In fact he took heat for suggesting that there ought to be many more trains running through Ohio than the two and a half that currently ply the rails in Ohio.

What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 23, 2009)

> What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.


Yes he is, the problem is the Broadway Limited in the TT printed here in this thread didn't offer much service in Ohio than the Three Rivers or the present situation does.

If somebody has a TT that shows the Broadway Limited making calls in Ohio with full service-- preferably the Amtrak incarnation of it-- I would love to see it.


----------



## AlanB (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm not sure what the B'way Limited did under Amtrak, but the 3R's made stops in Youngstown, Akron, and Fostoria.


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## jis (Apr 23, 2009)

AlanB said:


> I'm not sure what the B'way Limited did under Amtrak, but the 3R's made stops in Youngstown, Akron, and Fostoria.


Actually just before being taken off, the Broadway Limited had stops at Youngstown, Akron, Fostoria, Napanee and Garrett when it was re-routed onto B&O after the PRR line through Ft. Wayne was downgraded by Conrail. Before that of course it had stops at Canton, Crestline, Lima, Fort Wayne, Valparaiso. I had the good fortune of riding each of those incarnations of the Broadway Limited.

I do have timetables of each incarnation, but not in scanned form that can be posted here.


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## jis (Apr 23, 2009)

OK here is the PGH -CHI timetable circa 1990, of Train 40/41 Broadway Limited in its via B&O incarnation:


```
Pittsburgh	 00:11
Youngstown	 02:39
Akron		  03:49
Fostoria	   05:49
Garrett		07:29
Nappanee	   08:14
H-Whiting	  08:39
Chicago		09:29
```
In the reverse direction:


```
Chicago		20:15
H-Whiting	  20:42
Nappanee	   23:02
Garrett		23:54
Fostoria	   01:25
Akron		  03:30
Youngstown	 04:40
Pittsburgh	 07:25
```
The consist of Train 40 on 12/10/90 was:

2x F40

6x MHC

1x Bag-Dorm

4x Heritage Coach

1x Amfleet Lounge

1x Diner

1x Slumbercoach

1x Heritage Sleeper

The train ran more or less on schedule all the way and arrived in New York 5 minutes ahead of schedule.

Enjoy


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 23, 2009)

Reasonable call times too!


----------



## jis (Apr 23, 2009)

And for completeness here is train 40/41 Broadway Limited schedule under Amtrak circa 1979 via PRR route between PGH and CHI:

Train 41:


```
Pittsburgh	23:59
Canton		02:13
Crestline	 04:17
Lima		  05:45
Fort Wayne	05:53
Valparaiso	07:50
Gary		  08:20
Chicago	   09:05
```
Train 40:


```
Chicago	   16:00
Gary		  16:34
Valparaiso	16:55
For Wayne	 18:50
Lima		  21:02
Crestline	 22:40
Canton		00:25
Pittsburgh	02:55
```
BTW in this incarnation a New York section (which did not go to Philly 30th St.) and a Washington section (which did go through Philly 30th St.) joined together at Harrisburg to make the train that went to Chicago. Needless to say, there was no Capitol Limited at this time. The New York section ran non-stop from North Philadelphia to Harrisburg. The Washington section stopped at Philly 30th St, Paoli and Lancaster.

As for how the heck this thread on the future of Sunset Limited became focused on Broadway Limited, I have no clue. I am just going with the flow here trying to provide info that Alan said he did not have about the Broadway.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 23, 2009)

You know the Canton station (both of them) are still intact, the one on the old B&O branch line was recently refurbished to let the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railway train stop there... their normal consist is an F-unit, four or five Budd coaches, and an older switcher.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 23, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.
> 
> 
> Yes he is, the problem is the Broadway Limited in the TT printed here in this thread didn't offer much service in Ohio than the Three Rivers or the present situation does.
> ...


The Broadway Limited MrFSS posted is a different train than I'm talking about. I wish we could bring back that train, too, but there is no chance of that. The _Broadway Limited _ whose schedule was posted by MrFSS was an all-Pullman, very limited service crack express, the famous primary competitor to the even more famous New York Central _20th Century Limited_. The train I'm referring to is Amtrak's _Broadway Limited_, which shares a name and the routing east of Pittsburgh, and very little else.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 23, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > > What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.
> ...


If it stopped in Akron, with checked baggage, or ALC and Akron, or Akron and Lima... Anything at this point.


----------



## jis (Apr 24, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> If it stopped in Akron, with checked baggage, or ALC and Akron, or Akron and Lima... Anything at this point.


The _Broadway Limited_ was a PRR train and ran for most of its existence on the PRR Fort Wayne Line, both during the PRR incarnation(s) and the Amtrak incarnation, and hence did not have any chance of passing through or stopping at Akron. Only for a short period of time before its discontinuance and after the PRR Fort Wayne Line was downgraded by Conrail, it ran on the ex-B&O Line through Akron, and it is during that period that it stopped at Akron. Actually, even then initially it did not stop at Akron because Akron did not have a station ready in time. But when it ran on PRR it stopped at Lima and that was a baggage stop for quite a while into Amtrak.

BTW in the 1990 timetable Akron is marked as the station for Canton and Fostoria as the station for Lima. The schedule that I posted above for the via Akron version of Broadway went into effect on Nov 11, 1990. Before that it ran via Fort Wayne.

Initially it also did this interesting move in PGH to get onto the CSX line. It backed out of PGH station to the point where the PRR and B&O line cross each other and used the connection that is currently used by the _Capitol Limited_ to get from CSX to NS to get to PGH station, in the reverse direction to get onto CSX, and then proceed west on it. Sometime later, but within a year, a connection was built between Conrail and CSX in the vicinity of New Castle that allowed the train to proceed west out of PGH and do the switchover at New Castle.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 24, 2009)

Akron is the more logical choice for a station stop in that area. It is the biggest city after Youngstown and Cleveland and is home to one of the state's larger, growing colleges: Akron University. The station is still there, the Coke Express runs though the main there and I used to see if every so often. It has remarkable baggage handling potential and two lines, with two platforms. Though the station itself is in disrepair.

Canton has two stations, one on a small and old branch oft referred to as "The Nimishillen Branch" as it runs parallel to the Nimishillen creek/river. As I said before, it was recently restored to serve the CVSRR which IIRC also makes a run through Akron. The other station is in downtown Canton off of the NS main in that area-- you can tell it hasn't been used in ages but it would serve anybody better than ALC currently does.


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## ScottC4746 (Apr 28, 2009)

OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.


----------



## AlanB (Apr 28, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.


I'm not surprised at all, since that's how we do things around here, pretty much letting the topics wander where they may.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 28, 2009)

AlanB said:


> ScottC4746 said:
> 
> 
> > OK...This thread is totally derailed. What started off as a Sunset Limited thread has gone onto a tangent on all other lines. I am surprised the moderator did not move those postings elsewhere.
> ...


Yeah, typically whenever the SSL comes up people talk about where resources are better needed, and everybody usually has a different idea. As you can all tell, I am a huge advocate for Ohio and think that Amtrak with its horrid calling hours has kind of hurt chances of filling seats and esp. rooms... who wants a room from ALC-WAS? You board at 3AM... and rooms on the CL are rarely filled.


----------



## ScottC4746 (Apr 28, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > ScottC4746 said:
> ...


Thats true the old comparison to routes thing huh?


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 28, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Its not as much routes as "where are the pax? where can we fill more trains?"

As we mentioned earlier in the thread the SSL has never been a daily train for sustained periods, and service East of NOL would be very hard to restore as anything but a day-train.

Just because there is some sort of aura surrounding the SSL doesn't make it Amtrak's flagship train that we have to protect at all costs. When you have a failing business you have to be very very smart as to where you put money.

This of course provides an endless source of debate and opinions because everybody has their own ideas where the money is best put-- and of course this is an open forum so we should all be allowed to express these ideas.


----------



## henryj (Apr 28, 2009)

Well if we are going to get back on track, here are my thoughts on the subject. I am a retired CPA so I am a 'numbers' guy. A bean counter if you will. So when all this stuff started circulating around I start looking at schedules and counting cars. We know the Sunset ties up four sets, that's eight coaches, four sleepers, diners, lounges and dorm sleepers. The Eagle between Chi and SAS ties up four sets for daily service, that's eight coaches, four dorm sleepers, diners and lounges. The Thru sleeper and coach to LAX takes another three coaches and sleepers if I counted it right. So we have something like 19 coaches, 7 sleepers, 8 dorm sleepers, 8 diners and 8 lounges in the 'pool'. Soooo, lets make it daily. Now we need seven sets to go daily between LAX and CHI because the set arriving in Chicago at 2:14PM stays there 23 1/2 hours leaving the next day at 1:45PM. Do we have enough? Sort of. We have enough for a train of 2 coaches, 1 sleeper, 1dorm sleeper, 1 diner and 1 lounge with 5 coaches, 1ea dorm sleeper, diner and lounge left in reserve. If we scrounge up 2 extra coaches then the train can have three coaches for a capacity of around 250-300 people. There is nothing left for service east of San Antonio.

Now lets look at the City of New Orleans situation. It takes three sets to run. I am guessing it's a two coach one sleeper train now days from what I have read with a cross country cafe car. To extend it to Orlando takes just two more sets because you have the southbound set laying over in New Orleans for 22+hours which you can now utilize. The down side to all this is the train will likely have to lay over in New Orleans a few hours in each direction before continuing on which is not that bad since it would be during daylight hours. The reason? If you are now going to run a connecting coach train between San Antonio, Houston and New Orleans it won't reach New Orleans until late evening to connect and westbound it would have to leave early morning to reach San Antonio in time to connect with the Eagle/Sunset. Why is this? Because if you try and run a 'coach' train on the current Sunset schedule leaving SAS at 1AM and arriving westbound at 3AM who in their right mind would ride it? It would be worse than a Greyhound bus. Plus of course you have to find the equipment for two additional superliner trains.

The other option for NOL to Florida is a separate train and that would take three sets of 'something', I guess whatever Amtrak could scrounge up. If both the 'coach' remnants of the once proud Sunser Limited become single level, then the superliner CONO becomes an orphan in NOL.

So anyway, I guess I am just stupid, but I just don't understand the so called spokesmen that keep talking about a train leaving for Florida from NOL at 5 or 6 PM. Perhaps Amtrak's goal is to just come up with a schedule so bad that they can eventually just discontinue service between SAS, Houston and NOL. I mean, in a way, it makes some kind of bizarre sense in that Texas doesn't support Amtrak and certainly Houston's Mayor doesn't give a hoot. We know that politics pulls the strings at Amtrak and the Eagle and TEMPO have the inside track there and the pressure is mounting for restoration of some kind of service between New Orleans and Florida. So the way I see it is................Houston gets screwed, again. Maybe we could replace Phoenix as the largest city in the US without train service. Just my opinion.

What do you think?


----------



## NativeSon5859 (Apr 29, 2009)

henryj said:


> NativeSon5859 said:
> 
> 
> > I posted this on another forum, but it deserves to be posted in this thread as well.
> ...


Actually, the run can be made in about 14.5 hours assuming no delays. Don't tell me I don't have a clue. I based the times on SL schedules in the early '00's before all the padding was added. Next time, chill with the attitude.

Also, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that the 6:00am train to JAX (and 8:00am return) was proposed as NOL-JAX-NOL only...no ORL. If you think I don't realize that a 4:00am arrival/departure for ORL would not be very smart I'm not sure what to say.


----------



## Guest (Apr 29, 2009)

Henryi, we should support increasing service to more people, not taking it away.


----------



## wayman (Apr 29, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > > What he is saying is that first we need to cover as many cities as possible first with any form of service regardless of calling times, then come back and figure out how to give them service at decent hours.
> ...


In order to make its schedule between NYP and CHI as fast as possible, the original PRR Broadway Limited didn't even stop in Philadelphia! It stopped at "North Philadelphia" (as did many of PRR's NYP-CHI trains), which saved them the manuever the Keystones/Pennsylvanian/Three Rivers (and presumably Amtrak's Broadway Limited) have to make, changing direction in downtown Philadelphia (at 30th St today, or Broad St Station back in the day).

North Philadelphia still exists and is still served by Amtrak ... on one Keystone per day in only one direction, I believe. It's still served by many SEPTA R7s (and R8s, I think). You don't want to get off there today. Trust me. The huge station platforms, longer and grander than any SEPTA station in that neighborhood has any need for, plus the enormous old PRR switching tower nearby (covered in graffiti), are all that's left of the once proud history of this station.

Any revived Amtrak route PHL-CHI or NYP-PHL-CHI would be significantly slowed down from those 1940s timetable speeds by having to come downtown and do the reverse (and engine change, of course). I believe the old engine and crew change point (from GG1 to K4 Pacific, I believe?) was Harrisburg, which didn't involve a direction change. Just pull the old engine off and couple the new one on and go!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 29, 2009)

wayman said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Yeah, if the train ran with AEM-7s, couldn't you keep those on through Harrisburg?


----------



## jphjaxfl (Apr 29, 2009)

wayman said:


> In order to make its schedule between NYP and CHI as fast as possible, the original PRR Broadway Limited didn't even stop in Philadelphia! It stopped at "North Philadelphia" (as did many of PRR's NYP-CHI trains), which saved them the manuever the Keystones/Pennsylvanian/Three Rivers (and presumably Amtrak's Broadway Limited) have to make, changing direction in downtown Philadelphia (at 30th St today, or Broad St Station back in the day).
> North Philadelphia still exists and is still served by Amtrak ... on one Keystone per day in only one direction, I believe. It's still served by many SEPTA R7s (and R8s, I think). You don't want to get off there today. Trust me. The huge station platforms, longer and grander than any SEPTA station in that neighborhood has any need for, plus the enormous old PRR switching tower nearby (covered in graffiti), are all that's left of the once proud history of this station.
> 
> Any revived Amtrak route PHL-CHI or NYP-PHL-CHI would be significantly slowed down from those 1940s timetable speeds by having to come downtown and do the reverse (and engine change, of course). I believe the old engine and crew change point (from GG1 to K4 Pacific, I believe?) was Harrisburg, which didn't involve a direction change. Just pull the old engine off and couple the new one on and go!


I boarded Amtrak's Broadway Limited at North Philadelphia in 1973. At the time, Amtrak had ticket agents there. I was able to check my bag and had some time to kill so I took a ride on the Germantown Avenue Trolley which was a short walk from the station. At that time, the National Limited was running from Washington to Kansas City via Harrisburg using the Ft. Deposit line to bypass Philadlephia. If I remember correctly, they may have switched a Sleeper and a coach to the Broadway at Harrisburg. In 1978, I traveled from Washington to Chicago on the Washington section of the Broadway Limited which followed the NEC from Washington through Philadelphia 30th Street and on to Harrisburg where the Washington section combined with the New York section to continue on to Chicago. In 1978, the New York section of the Broadway still stopped at North Philadelphia. The Broadway then followed an all ex PRR route from New York to Chicago, the same as the original Broadway Limited.


----------



## wayman (Apr 29, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Yeah, if the train ran with AEM-7s, couldn't you keep those on through Harrisburg?


You could, but in order to keep the engine in the lead I think you'd have to take the North Philadelphia-to-ZOO cutoff bypassing 30th St, or else run a cab-car and use that to control the train from Philadelphia to Harrisburg (with the AEM-7 on the back end), then uncouple the AEM-7 from the back and couple a P42 on the front--in front of the cab-car--at Harrisburg. It would look really weird, but I suppose it would work? Seems like it would be a better use of resources (limited supply of cab-cars) to just do the change in Philadelphia.

What I don't remember, or know how they'd handle, is long-distance coaches whose seats will be backwards for either NYP-PHL or PHL-CHI. The Keystone's seats are half-facing-each-way, which is fine for commuter trains, but for a long-haul I would think passengers would far prefer to face forward the whole way.

I suppose the simplest answer is to just start the train in Philadelphia?...


----------



## AlanB (Apr 29, 2009)

wayman said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, if the train ran with AEM-7s, couldn't you keep those on through Harrisburg?
> ...


Well he meant by bypassing 30th Street and taking the Zoo cutoff. And technically one could even keep an HHP till Harrisburg.

As for how LD's handle turning in Philly, passengers ride backwards between NYP & PHL in both directions, which leaves them facing forward for the remainder of the trip.


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## jis (Apr 29, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Well he meant by bypassing 30th Street and taking the Zoo cutoff. And technically one could even keep an HHP till Harrisburg.
> As for how LD's handle turning in Philly, passengers ride backwards between NYP & PHL in both directions, which leaves them facing forward for the remainder of the trip.


I believe the bypass track at Zoo was called the New York Subway at some point in time.

The Broadway Limited used that track well into its existence as an Amtrak train. It was using it as late as 1979. I don;t know exactly when that changed.


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## printman2000 (Apr 29, 2009)

henryj said:


> I mean, in a way, it makes some kind of bizarre sense in that Texas doesn't support Amtrak and certainly Houston's Mayor doesn't give a hoot.


I do not even know who Houston's mayor is, but not sure I agree with the Texas not supporting Amtrak. Kay Bailey Hutchenson is a huge supporter. Also, there are plans in Houston for an intermodal station that would include Amtrak service. The state also helps pays for the Heartland Flyer.

I also know for a fact that the mayor of Amarillo would love to have Amtrak service!


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## henryj (Apr 29, 2009)

Guest said:


> Henryi, we should support increasing service to more people, not taking it away.


I do support more service. I was just commenting on the rumors circulating around about combining the Sunset with the Eagle.


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## henryj (Apr 29, 2009)

printman2000 said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > I mean, in a way, it makes some kind of bizarre sense in that Texas doesn't support Amtrak and certainly Houston's Mayor doesn't give a hoot.
> ...


So would I. We have had no connection between Texas and Colorado(thru Amarillo) since the 1960's. Houston's mayor is Bill white. The Intermodal Center is part of Houston Metro's long term plans. Texas Governor is Rick Perry. He probably has never heard of Amtrak. Kay Bailey Hutchinson is our only Amtrak supporter. Rumor is she plans to run for Governor. Lets hope so.


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## henryj (Apr 29, 2009)

NativeSon5859 said:


> Actually, the run can be made in about 14.5 hours assuming no delays. Don't tell me I don't have a clue. I based the times on SL schedules in the early '00's before all the padding was added. Next time, chill with the attitude.
> Also, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that the 6:00am train to JAX (and 8:00am return) was proposed as NOL-JAX-NOL only...no ORL. If you think I don't realize that a 4:00am arrival/departure for ORL would not be very smart I'm not sure what to say.


The schedule was more like 15 hours even when L&N ran the Gulf Wind and it always was an overnight train. The schedule you refer to had the train leaving NOL eastbound at 11PM and arriving in JAX at 2:30 and Orlando at 4:50. Returning it left ORL at 6:40PM, JAX at 10:30PM and arrived in NOL before noon. Orlando is the main destination for passengers going to Florida with something like 50 million visitors a year, JAX is a secondary destination. A day train that does not continue on to Orlando or connect with one of the Silver Service trains would be useless. CSX was never able to maintain the 15 hour schedule for Amtrak so what's the point of publishing a schedule like that. The best thing Amtrak could do is restore the Sunset Limited east of NOL on it's pre-Katrina schedule. They complain that the route is too long and the stations are not ready and on and on. However, the Eagle route from Chicago to LAX is 2,728 miles. The Sunset's route from LAX to Orlando is 2,759 miles. If they run the Eagle daily LAX to CHI it would take seven sets of equipment. If they run the Sunset daily it would take the same. If they run the Sunset daily LAX to NOL only then it would take 5 sets of which they already have 4 dedicated to the service. As for having a

'clue', I have no clue as to what Amtrak's plans are, just the rumors going around. What I do see is if they decide to combine the Sunset with the Eagle then Houston is screwed.


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## arubafanatic (May 20, 2009)

I just want them to bring it BACK. Being from NYC, not having trains available makes me CRAZY. I live outside of Dallas and I'm thinking of voting REP just to get rid of Rick Perry. When I first moved here 20 years ago, I had no real reason to go beyond NOL, but now I have a 7 year old and I drove to ORL to save money and that's not a drive I want to do again anytime soon. But southerners are tied to their trucks and SUV's, but I'd welcome any decent service Dallas to Houston to New Orleans to Orlando....tons of families want to get there without driving and the crazy cost and hassle of flying. The older I get, the less I WANT to fly. But the folks down here think train travel is for poor folks and is only a step above bus travel. :blink:


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## PaulM (May 20, 2009)

arubafanatic said:


> But southerners are tied to their trucks and SUV's, ...


Sad but true. 


arubafanatic said:


> But the folks down here think train travel is for poor folks and is only a step above bus travel.


If they even know it exists. I'm originally from Mobile. The last time I visited Mobile and Dallas in the mid 90's by way of the Cardinal, Crescent, Gulf Breeze (defunct), Sunset limited (defunct east of NO), and the Houston section of the Texas Eagle (defunct), not only was patronage of the defunct trains low, but my mother and her friends, many whose husbands were retired from railroad employment, were not aware that Mobile had trains service.


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## VentureForth (May 20, 2009)

arubafanatic said:


> I live outside of Dallas and I'm thinking of voting REP just to get rid of Rick Perry.


Perry actually is a Republican. Unless, of course, you mean to dethrone him at the primarys and vote for Kay Bailey Hutchinson (sweet lady - met her once). Perry is a bit more friendly than Bush, but not much...


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## jis (May 20, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> arubafanatic said:
> 
> 
> > I live outside of Dallas and I'm thinking of voting REP just to get rid of Rick Perry.
> ...


And Kay Hutchinson has also been a staunch supporter of the Texas Eagle through thick and thin.


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## MikefromCrete (May 20, 2009)

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > arubafanatic said:
> ...


Sen. Hutchinson is a big defender of the national network, often saying "national or nothing" during the time when the Bush administration was trying to cut Amtrak down to unconnected corridors. She definitely is a friend of the long distance train.


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## arubafanatic (May 22, 2009)

I would only vote in the Rep primary to dethrone his chances of winning. I'm not sure where I stand on Sen. Hutchinson for other positions that she holds, so I don't know if I'd vote for her in the general election. But I am glad that she supports a national train network and now that the gas prices are starting to creep up again, maybe we'll see some improvement.


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