# The Government’s Cheap, Dishonest Campaign Against the Chinatown Bus I



## Ryan (Nov 3, 2013)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/02/the-government-s-cheap-dishonest-campaign-against-the-chinatown-bus-industry.html



> The forced shutdown of two wildly popular budget bus companies was largely based on fabricated charges to the benefit of politically-connected corporate carriers.





> Members of the so-called Chinatown bus industry, like Lucky Star, have been particularly vulnerable to abuses under this new paradigm. These companies, many of which were started in New York City by immigrants from the Fujian Province, China in the late 1990s, have revolutionized the passenger bus industry over the past decade. By charging extremely low prices and picking up passengers off the sidewalk instead of at a traditional bus station, they demonstrated that it was possible to lure hordes of new customers to travel by bus. Faced with declining market share, Greyhound, Peter Pan, and Coach USA started subsidiaries that imitate the Chinatown business model, and today curbside busing is the fastest growing mode of intercity travel in the U.S. But in contrast to the large corporate-carriers, the owners and staff of the Chinatown companies lack political connections and often speak English as a second language, making them easy targets for abuse by regulators.


Interesting article, I'm curious what other folks think (Swadian, I'm looking at you!  ). Personally, I don't doubt that the government is trying to pull a stunt like this, and wish they weren't. I think there's a market out there and a place for everything, be it a $10 curbside bus, Amtrak, plane or personal vehicle.


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## benjibear (Nov 6, 2013)

I have a problem with the curbside bus companies. These buses always appear to be somewhat a problem by taking parking spaces, having people waiting block sidewalks, and there has been some safety questions with these companies. In my opinion, buses should go to bus terminals and not be allowed to pick up people on the street.

I understand in some cities like New York there is capacity issues with bus terminals. However, in New York there is issues with capacity of everything from buses, to trains, to parking.

I think curbside pick up is similar to someone walking down the street selling watches out of their coat. Many towns frown upon street vendors and require permits. The same should apply to these bus companies.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 6, 2013)

I was holding off on this thread to see how it would develop. This Jim Epstien guy dosen't know what he's talking about. He probably has no idea that the FMCSA shut down Rimrock Trailways, a close ally of Greyhound who had directly taken over Greyhound's North Dakota and Montana service after cancellations. The death of Rimrock left Greyhound and ally Jefferson grappling for ways to solve the problem until Jefferson ran a through Minneapolis-Missoula bus to replace Rimrock service.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 9, 2013)

Here's an article that might be interesting: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-brakes-tour-bus-crash-20131107,0,6246672.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fmostviewed+%28L.A.+Times+-+Most+Viewed+Stories%29#axzz2kBZqHzMw.

This is why operators running heavily-damaged buses should be shut down immediately.


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## Anderson (Nov 10, 2013)

There are two sets of issues with the Chinatown buses. The first is the sidewalk/parking space problem that was mentioned above. The second has been a major safety issue, with unqualified drivers and/or drivers being pushed past safe working limits on the one hand, and (as Swadian noted above) buses with safety issues still being operated in spite of those issues on the other. If I'm not mistaken, most of the "Chinatown bus" crashes have had to do with pretty blatant safety violations in one of those veins.

Edit: The other thoughts that come to mind are:
(1) Down in VA, there's been a tendency of these companies to move around and change names quite a bit (and by that, I mean that I think some of the names have changed several times in the last 3-4 years). That in and of itself is suspicious to me.

(2) If the Feds' case was so laughable, at what point did Lucky Star retain counsel and contest the order? I guess being used to the US, I sort of fault them for not having had counsel on retainer just-in-case...but if the fact pattern in the story were true, there would seem to be grounds for a malicious prosecution case against the relevant authorities.

The bottom line is that absent more information, I'm honestly disinclined to believe the fact pattern presented in the story.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 10, 2013)

Another thing to note here is that the wipeouts of Chinatown buses haven't done much to the industry itself, competition is still heavy between Greyhound and Megabus, which drives down fares. In fact, service is better now than before the companies were shut down. YO! Bus still offers Chinatown service, sure it's owned by Greyhound/Peter Pan, but it's just as cheap, much safer, and much more comfortable than Fung Wah or the pleathora of other irregular operators.


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## jebr (Nov 10, 2013)

I've been meaning to post this article, and now seems like a good time. Yes, the source is a biased source, but it's an interesting read nonetheless.

http://reason.com/archives/2013/07/16/why-the-government-was-wrong-to-shutdown


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 10, 2013)

Yeah right, Fung Wah ran 3 million miles a year when they still operated. Greyhound runs 142 million miles a year. Obviously Greyhound would have much more incidents.

Plus, a lot of those Greyhound fires were due to G4500 design flaws. Greyhound is actively rebuilding the G4500s to fix those flaws, which is expected to greatly reduce fires.


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## jebr (Nov 10, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Another thing to note here is that the wipeouts of Chinatown buses haven't done much to the industry itself, competition is still heavy between Greyhound and Megabus, which drives down fares. In fact, *service is better now than before the companies were shut down*. YO! Bus still offers Chinatown service, sure it's owned by Greyhound/Peter Pan, but it's *just as cheap*, much safer, and much more comfortable than Fung Wah or the pleathora of other irregular operators.


Nope, YO! Bus is not as cheap. If I remember correctly, Fung Wah was a flat $15 each way no matter when you bought the ticket. They may have been as low as $10. Yo! starts at $12, but goes up from there...buying one for tomorrow was $23, and this weekend is $22-$27.

Fung Wah also ran an absurd number of frequencies, whereas YO! bus only runs a few times a day, it appears. That sounds like a downgrade of frequencies to me.

Should Fung Wah have been shut down? I'm not sure, but if they were a safety hazard, then yes, appropriate action should be taken, up to and including shutting down the company. But to say that there's nothing lost by losing Fung Wah is a false statement.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 10, 2013)

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Another thing to note here is that the wipeouts of Chinatown buses haven't done much to the industry itself, competition is still heavy between Greyhound and Megabus, which drives down fares. In fact, *service is better now than before the companies were shut down*. YO! Bus still offers Chinatown service, sure it's owned by Greyhound/Peter Pan, but it's *just as cheap*, much safer, and much more comfortable than Fung Wah or the pleathora of other irregular operators.
> ...


So? True Greyhound sells $18 tickets on the New York-Boston route, you can even buy them for Tuesday. BoltBus and Megabus regularly offer $13 fares. You can't buy anything for tommorow because almost all the buses are sold out.


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## Anderson (Nov 11, 2013)

Setting Fung Wah aside, which line was it that rammed the bus into a bridge in New York?


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## amamba (Nov 12, 2013)

I found Fung Wah to be dangerous and scary. Those busses were often menaces on the highway, going 80 mph+ and tailgating the heck out of people in the middle lanes. Sometimes they would illegally drive in the far left lane, too.

That is just my personal opinion based on what I personally observed over the years, as a rider and as a driver in my own car observing the bus.


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## railiner (Nov 12, 2013)

I don't know which of the Chinatown carrier's were involved, but recall there were gang turf type wars that resulted in shootings between them years ago.

And more recent allegations that the main purpose of their existence in some cases was to provide a means of transporting knockoff designer merchandise between various markets. Not exactly the type of enterprise that would instill confidence in the travelling public...


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 12, 2013)

amamba said:


> I found Fung Wah to be dangerous and scary. Those busses were often menaces on the highway, going 80 mph+ and tailgating the heck out of people in the middle lanes. Sometimes they would illegally drive in the far left lane, too.
> 
> That is just my personal opinion based on what I personally observed over the years, as a rider and as a driver in my own car observing the bus.


I've ridden New Century, a similar Chinatown bus company that was shut down. They were unsafe, they just got me there. These intercity buses are supposed to have governers at 75 mph which speed they are never supposed to exceed. If they exceeded 75 and went to 80, they must've tinkered with the governer, which is very difficult and dangerous.



railiner said:


> I don't know which of the Chinatown carrier's were involved, but recall there were gang turf type wars that resulted in shootings between them years ago.
> 
> And more recent allegations that the main purpose of their existence in some cases was to provide a means of transporting knockoff designer merchandise between various markets. Not exactly the type of enterprise that would instill confidence in the travelling public...


Not only that, but weapons, drugs, and human smuggling rumours were also rampant, some of which turned out to be true.

I know some people make these Chinese immigrant bus operators to be poor, illiterate, and at the mercy of mean federal inspectors, but as cheap as a Van Hool is, it still costs $400,000 with no extra options, so they've got to be getting that money somewhere.

In China a lot of bus operators smash, burn, and fight with other operators to push them off a route. I personally saw this once, the police were nowhere to be seen.


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