# Protests over cuts to European sleeper services



## CHamilton (Jun 22, 2015)

End of the line for European sleeper trains? Protests as night services are cut amid fierce competition from budget airlines



> Night trains have been hardest hit and protests took place across Europe at the weekend against the phasing out of many cross-country sleeper services.
> 
> Protests took place in stations across Europe, such as here in Berlin, against cuts in European train sleeper services
> 
> ...


Following the City Night Line discussion from last year, but this is a bit off topic for that thread.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jun 22, 2015)

Sehr komisch.


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## Caesar La Rock (Jun 23, 2015)

They protest about Sleeper service being cut in Europe, meanwhile in the US we let the government cut Amtrak's funding and hardly anyone is outraged by that. At least we know who cares about passenger trains besides railfans in both pictures here.


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## jis (Jun 23, 2015)

The difference in Europe is that the Sleeper services being talked about are on routes that mostly have numerous daytime train, and even if not a throught rain, usually a very reasonable one connection service. In the US the LD trains are typically one train or less a day with no other rail service.

Many of the daytime cross border services have seen the axe, specially between Germany and Poland because of the local Polish authority's lack of desire to fund inter-City service of any sort other than within Poland. That is what has happened to all cross border Dresden - Wroclow service. OTOH the more prestigious Berlin Warsaw Express continues to run with full trains in both first and second class three time a day direct and once a day with a connection from Berlin - Gdansk through service at Poznan. apparentlythe Berlin - Vienna through service has been withdrawn because of the availability of many single connection service either through Prague (CD EC service from Berlin to Prague or breclav (Budapest Kaleti service) and then OBB IC service Prague to Vienna. In addition DB still maintains a connecting service with connection at either Munich or Fulda and Wurzburg.

Not saying that these are good changes, but just that unlike in the US where losing one train means losing all service, in Europe there are multiple slightly less convenient alternatives available in most cases.


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## NW cannonball (Jun 24, 2015)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Sehr komisch.


Doch


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 24, 2015)

I have run into several British people on the Silvers who have told me that they have come over here specifically to take the overnight train because of them being cut in Europe and they like the experience. They usually have come over or are going back on the Queen Mary, so they obviously have money to spend. If Amtrak had any sense, they would make the long-distance trains as wonderful an experience as possible and market the heck out of this overseas.


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## jis (Jun 24, 2015)

UK is actually reviving the LD overnight trains that they do have. The cuts are happening on mainland Europe.

People who have money to have Queen Mary would more rightly be targets for Iowa Pacific Pullman service rather than Amtrak's Sleeper service I would think.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 24, 2015)

jis--I think they did mean that instead of going to mainline Europe, they were coming here for vacation. Yes, it surprised me, too, that they wanted to take Amtrak. I'm thrilled that they are reviving the overnight trains in the UK, though! (I won't fly, so to try them, I will have to save up for the Queen Mary myself, so that is years away, if ever  !)


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 24, 2015)

oops--I meant mainland, not mainline. That's what happens when I keep thinking about train trips.


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## jis (Jun 24, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> jis--I think they did mean that instead of going to mainline Europe, they were coming here for vacation. Yes, it surprised me, too, that they wanted to take Amtrak. I'm thrilled that they are reviving the overnight trains in the UK, though! (I won't fly, so to try them, I will have to save up for the Queen Mary myself, so that is years away, if ever  !)


Mystic, I knew you meant "mainland".

I don't think UK ever lost all its sleeper trains. There these days they have this quaint notion of "private train operating companies" which all train advocates in US swear is a disaster and will never work". However, one of the neat things about it is that these companies have to renew their franchises through a bidding process, and from time to time the current operator loses their franchise due to non-performance and it then goes to a different company. At these franchising points the contracts are written to add features or revamp service with new equipment etc. The UK Sleeper service, specifically the Caledonian Sleeper Service which connect London Euston to both the west (Glasgow, Mallaig, Inverness) and east side (Edinburgh, Aberdeen) of Scotland, is starting a new contract with a new TOC (Train Operating Company), and as part of that they are getting new equipment and new better schedules with better on board service. The previous provider was Scotrail which bowed out.

I am thinking of trying it out during my planned visit to the UK over Thanksgiving this year.

As for mainland Europe, lest people think that the night trains are all gone, one ca find a comprehensive list of night train service at Raileurpe at http://www.eurail.com/europe-by-train/night-trains

There is another Sleeper service in the UK which connects London Waterloo to Penzance. I don;t know if it is also moving to this new provider.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 24, 2015)

jis, I know you knew what I meant, but it's an editing habit. I've been an editor for so long that it drives me nuts if I don't go back and fix my mistakes!

The UK sleeper train situation sounds much better than I imagined. Absolutely try it out if you can! (And of course write a trip report for the rest of us  .)

I like the idea of a bit of competition--keeps everyone on their toes.

Maybe the British people I met on the trains here just wanted a good excuse to go somewhere on the Queen Mary! :giggle:


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## Anderson (Jun 28, 2015)

Jis,

I can falsify your statement easily about "all train advocates": I think it wouldn't be a bad idea so long as it was handled well and a lot of caveats were dealt with (e.g. ensuring that none of the new operators got screwed over by the Class Is*, requiring them to allow a common booking system to be used and guaranteeing through-ticketing). Basically, Amtrak as a sort of "National Rail" entity which, in its case, operates some trains and bids out others? That isn't a horrid idea in my mind. The main problem is that there's a long history of messy legislation to work through (e.g. union workers threatening to refuse to dispatch trains with non-union OBS).

*Well, any worse than Amtrak gets on occasion.


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## seat38a (Jun 29, 2015)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I have run into several British people on the Silvers who have told me that they have come over here specifically to take the overnight train because of them being cut in Europe and they like the experience. They usually have come over or are going back on the Queen Mary, so they obviously have money to spend. If Amtrak had any sense, they would make the long-distance trains as wonderful an experience as possible and market the heck out of this overseas.


Not sure about overseas, but in the 90's they made the Coast Starlight the premier train with all enhanced amenities. I don't think it still ever turned a profit. They used to advertise the crap out of it as well. Last month when we took the Coast Starlight, it was full of overseas visitors from UK, Australia, and Netherlands or Germany. Even with the cuts, it is still a popular train. Amtrak will never be the Orient Express. In some ways, I think the current state of Amtrak actually gives it the kind of "Got To Try It" aura for foreigners. Sometime people are a glutton for punishment and will "rough it" especially if they have money to burn and its a choice.


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## seat38a (Jun 29, 2015)

Just saw the dinning car menu / breakfast for the overnight train in Europe and for Caledonian Sleeper. Sure makes Amtrak's dining car breakfast seem luxurious even with the cuts!

I'll take this on Amtrak any day vs a box full of couple pieces of bread and a drink.



DSC00243 by Brian H, on Flickr


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## cirdan (Jun 29, 2015)

jis said:


> UK is actually reviving the LD overnight trains that they do have. The cuts are happening on mainland Europe.
> 
> People who have money to have Queen Mary would more rightly be targets for Iowa Pacific Pullman service rather than Amtrak's Sleeper service I would think.


Not quite. In the UK they are merely getting new rolling stock for the Caledonian Sleeper, replacing existing cars on a one to one basis. That's hardly a revival but more a continuation on the existing low level.

No decison has yet been taken over the Night Riviera on the other hand. It would have made sense to combine the orders for both trains but this opportunity has been missed, leaving it open whether or not there will be a micro order for the remaining train.

The Exter service has bene discontinued recently, so its not as if there have been no more discontinuations.

Concerning the Queen Mary, you can get quite good prices sometimes. Sometimes below that of a business flight.


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## jis (Jun 29, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Jis,
> 
> I can falsify your statement easily about "all train advocates": I think it wouldn't be a bad idea so long as it was handled well and a lot of caveats were dealt with (e.g. ensuring that none of the new operators got screwed over by the Class Is*, requiring them to allow a common booking system to be used and guaranteeing through-ticketing). Basically, Amtrak as a sort of "National Rail" entity which, in its case, operates some trains and bids out others? That isn't a horrid idea in my mind. The main problem is that there's a long history of messy legislation to work through (e.g. union workers threatening to refuse to dispatch trains with non-union OBS).
> 
> *Well, any worse than Amtrak gets on occasion.


Yeah I should have said something like "a majority of" or "many" or something like that instead of "all" of course. But it is the case I think that there is reluctance to explore possibilities in the US. I agree that unless the Federal Executive and Legislative branches are fully engaged to create a proper framework it would not work. but then the current situation really does not work either. It just bungles along. It is demonstrably setup to fail, but has not succeeded in that mission either, so it leaves the whole thing in a limbo.



cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > UK is actually reviving the LD overnight trains that they do have. The cuts are happening on mainland Europe.
> ...


You're right. Actually I am amazed that they are even getting new cars for any sleeper service. Non cancellation when equipment reaches end of life almost feels like a revival. In Europe, they are basically parking the cars from canceled service hoping that someone will buy them for a price higher than scrap.

Considering that London to Exeter is normally a 2.5hr schedule, a Sleeper service is already a bit of a stretch and I am not surprised that it is gone. It just does not make much sense to have it in the first place in this day and age.

But in general, the state of passenger railroad in the UK is insanely better than in the US. UK is really not a large enough place to have a viable sleeper service at all. That is why I am delighted that there is any at all. In general the frequency and quality of passenger rail service has improved considerably after the additional funding became available following privatization of TOCs and ROSCOEs. OTOH, the handling of infrastructure was a disaster and rightly came back to public sector. Labor rna with the explicit plan to nationalize passenger service again and of course for various reasons they got a drubbing of their life.


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## cirdan (Jun 29, 2015)

I agree with waht you're saying.

I also think it's a case of the grass always being greener on the other side.

In some of the European forums I'm active on there is a lot of complaining about the loss of LD service in Europe with people saying they'll be passing their next vacations on Amtrak because there at least is a country that values its LD trains.


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## seat38a (Jun 29, 2015)

cirdan said:


> I agree with waht you're saying.
> 
> I also think it's a case of the grass always being greener on the other side.
> 
> In some of the European forums I'm active on there is a lot of complaining about the loss of LD service in Europe with people saying they'll be passing their next vacations on Amtrak because there at least is a country that values its LD trains.


Similar to how many people on here praise Via Rail Canada, but when you actually read Canadian news, Via is not much more loved than Amtrak by the Canadians.


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