# Sneaking a Shower



## Shotgun7 (Jul 23, 2008)

On Saturday, August 2nd I'll be heading up north to Connecticut and probably beyond, as I posted a few days ago. There's no way I can afford a sleeper all the way to New York, especially by booking as late as I did (3 days ago), so I'll be in coach for 26 hours from DFB-NYP on the Meteor and then another hour and a half on Acela to New Haven. That's a long time to be constantly around people and without a shower! I noticed in several trips in sleeprs that although it's for a very short while, sleeper attendants do in fact sleep for a little while. And conductors can be in the bathroom or in their office or too busy with radio transmissions to pay attention to their surroundings for a few minutes. Does anybody think it's possible to get up at say 3 or 4 AM, sneak through the diner, and into the public shower for a few minutes without being thrown out? I have to do something new and interesting on every train trip I go on, and this idea just happens to be convenient too!


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## the_traveler (Jul 23, 2008)

Using the shower by someone in coach is not allowed. True, the SA does sleep, but I wouldn't want to get caught and be put off the train at 3 AM! Plus, on the SM, because there is not any baggage storage in the car, sometimes they store the baggage in the shower room.

I would rather try for an onboard upgrade.


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## sechs (Jul 23, 2008)

I believe that they call that theft of services. In most places, it carries jail time. While I'm dubious that Amtrak would prosecute, as the_traveler points out, being put out at some random, probably rural, town in the wee hours of the morning is not something to which to look forward, either.

The better option would be to attempt to upgrade to a sleeper for some portion of your trip and legally receive access to the shower, as well as a private compartment and, possibly, meals.


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## RobertF (Jul 23, 2008)

Shotgun7 said:


> On Saturday, August 2nd I'll be heading up north to Connecticut and probably beyond, as I posted a few days ago. There's no way I can afford a sleeper all the way to New York, especially by booking as late as I did (3 days ago), so I'll be in coach for 26 hours from DFB-NYP on the Meteor and then another hour and a half on Acela to New Haven. That's a long time to be constantly around people and without a shower! I noticed in several trips in sleeprs that although it's for a very short while, sleeper attendants do in fact sleep for a little while. And conductors can be in the bathroom or in their office or too busy with radio transmissions to pay attention to their surroundings for a few minutes. Does anybody think it's possible to get up at say 3 or 4 AM, sneak through the diner, and into the public shower for a few minutes without being thrown out? I have to do something new and interesting on every train trip I go on, and this idea just happens to be convenient too!


Seems Morally ambiguous at best. Wonder if you got caught if it would get you thrown off the train. That would be an interesting train trip indeed.

I'd take the moral high ground and try for that onboard upgrade or just wait to take that shower. The folks who paid for the sleeper paid for that shower,

you didn't. Pretty straight forward to me.


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## Shotgun7 (Jul 23, 2008)

Crap, I forgot about getting put off the train. That would certainly not be too fun. I didn't know Amtrak staff takes it that seriously. I think I'll make due with deoderant... <_<


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## RobertF (Jul 23, 2008)

Shotgun7 said:


> Crap, I forgot about getting put off the train. That would certainly not be too fun. I didn't know Amtrak staff takes it that seriously. I think I'll make due with deoderant... <_<


Heck, on my TE trip, they removed someone from the train for smoking. Didn't hear all the details, but I know they were taken off as I heard it on my scanner. Also we stopped in the middle of no-where to take a passenger off because they got sick. An ambulance was waiting. They just stopped at a crossing, helped them off and away we went. That would be a bad day.


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## PetalumaLoco (Jul 23, 2008)

Heck, this could happen to you...


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## Shotgun7 (Jul 23, 2008)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Heck, this could happen to you...


Well now that would certainly be an adventure!... maybe even a little too much


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## da40flyer (Jul 23, 2008)

Shotgun7 said:


> Crap, I forgot about getting put off the train. That would certainly not be too fun. I didn't know Amtrak staff takes it that seriously. I think I'll make due with deoderant... <_<


On my recent LD trip, we just used a washcloth and some soap in the coach bathroom. Wasn't as good as a real shower but it was better than nothing.


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## Tony (Jul 23, 2008)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Heck, this could happen to you...


The article didn't mention if he was only in his underwear when he was put off the train. Plus, I would have assumed that Amtrak would have put him off at a station, not in the middle of the desert.


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## Tony (Jul 23, 2008)

the_traveler said:


> Using the shower by someone in coach is not allowed. True, the SA does sleep, but I wouldn't want to get caught and be put off the train at 3 AM! Plus, on the SM, because there is not any baggage storage in the car, sometimes they store the baggage in the shower room.


Plus, remember, the SA's room is directly across the hall from the shower room.

Gosh, even as a Sleeping Car passenger, I would never try to use the shower in other car. Most of the SA I have run across, are VERY protective (territorial?) of their cars.

Beyond luggage, I have frequently found the SA store "tomorrow's" consumables in the shower, like extra ice, juice, cups, etc.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 23, 2008)

But you really do not get that dirty on the train.

People ride coach aong distances all the time without a shower and get by ok. We all have different levels of tolerance, I know.

Maybe I am a slob.

But when I was younger I rode coach from Tennessee to California ( three ngihts) several times without any serious problem and this included several hour layovers walking around in Chicago.

Trains used to not even have showers in the abundance they have them today. Very few trains before Amtrak had showers--maybe seven or eight trains in the whole country. And they were usually just in one car on the whole train--usually not public for other sleeping car passengners.

So...I am thinking it is kind of a cultivated, perceived need. We can live without it.


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## SharonLPK (Jul 23, 2008)

da40flyer said:


> Shotgun7 said:
> 
> 
> > Crap, I forgot about getting put off the train. That would certainly not be too fun. I didn't know Amtrak staff takes it that seriously. I think I'll make due with deoderant... <_<
> ...



In a Walgreens or similar store, you should be able to find 'disposable' washcloths, just add water  I believe they are usually in the Home Health Care section.


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## RailFanLNK (Jul 23, 2008)

Allthough I'm not a slob and take some pride in my appearence, I've gone 3 days straight with no shower during my busy holiday hours at work. When you walk out the door of your house at 7:30am and return home at 10pm or later, a shower sounds like more effort that I don't want to expend at that very moment. I usually will go to bed, lay out the same uniform in the other bedroom, get up and put on a fresh pair of sox and undies, brush the teeth, deodorant and walk back out the door for another 12+ hour day of work. This goes on for almost a month and I have learned that I don't have to shower up daily. Sometimes I just stick my head under the kitchen sink and shampoo it real quick. By the time Christmas arrives, no matter how much I have showered, I still look and feel like crud! :lol: I usually spend Janurary sleeping as much as I can. So I would easily be able to go 26 hours without a shower!


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## Ghost (Jul 23, 2008)

Are you a shopping mall Santa?


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## Tony (Jul 23, 2008)

RobertF said:


> Heck, on my TE trip, they removed someone from the train for smoking. Didn't hear all the details, but I know they were taken off as I heard it on my scanner.


Gosh, I have seen a desperate smoker in the vestibule, with the car door's window open. For what ever reason, no one seemed to care.


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## nr272 (Jul 23, 2008)

As others have said, I think you should be fine. I went from Boston to Seattle last summer without a shower and felt fine. You'll be sitting in an air-conditioned car most of the time, so it's not like your clothes will be soaked with sweat after a few days. Bring a washcloth, change your socks, and you should be fine. It was a good idea though. 

Have a good trip!

noah


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## had8ley (Jul 23, 2008)

Why don't you go straight at it? Approach the car attendant with a five spot and ask him/her if there would be a convenient time to take a shower. Lot cheaper than a room and NO is only half of a four letter word. Good luck!


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## haolerider (Jul 23, 2008)

had8ley said:


> Why don't you go straight at it? Approach the car attendant with a five spot and ask him/her if there would be a convenient time to take a shower. Lot cheaper than a room and NO is only half of a four letter word. Good luck!


I don't think that is such a hot idea. If I were a sleeping car passenger and I found out there were people who didn't belong in the sleeping cars, taking showers, I would not be too happy. I also assume Amtrak management would not be too happy about it either. I'm not trying to be unreasonable about this, but what would be next? For ten bucks you can take a nap in an empty roomette - or how about free coffee, juice and by the way - can I get you a newspaper?


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## the_traveler (Jul 23, 2008)

haolerider said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't you go straight at it? Approach the car attendant with a five spot and ask him/her if there would be a convenient time to take a shower. Lot cheaper than a room and NO is only half of a four letter word. Good luck!
> ...


No, the newspaper would be $15! :lol:

But really, I would agree! Even if the SA accepts the "tip", if I were a sleeper passenger, and found out that someone from coach got something for free that I paid extra to get, I would complain to Amtrak. And they would "have a talk" with the SA. I would consider *MY* job to be worth more than a $5 "tip"! 

If Amtrak were smart (like that would ever happen  ) and start to offer the option of a shower for coach, I wouldn't try it!


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## had8ley (Jul 23, 2008)

Well the "idea" came from watching someone doing it. I seldom travel coach lately and enjoy watching some of the coach pax antics. I, as a revenue pax, saw nothing wrong with what that pax did. One wet towel and a little water isn't going to shut Amtrak down. Au contraire~ it might entice someone to buy a room or upgrade next trip. Sure, his boss might have torn the SA up but I'm sure the gentleman who asked for, and got the shower, genuinely needed it. And I'm positive he beelined back to coach without stealing a bottle of water.


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## haolerider (Jul 23, 2008)

had8ley said:


> Well the "idea" came from watching someone doing it. I seldom travel coach lately and enjoy watching some of the coach pax antics. I, as a revenue pax, saw nothing wrong with what that pax did. One wet towel and a little water isn't going to shut Amtrak down. Au contraire~ it might entice someone to buy a room or upgrade next trip. Sure, his boss might have torn the SA up but I'm sure the gentleman who asked for, and got the shower, genuinely needed it. And I'm positive he beelined back to coach without stealing a bottle of water.


Agree with what you say, but still not a good practice.


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## RailFanLNK (Jul 23, 2008)

Hey guest, no I'm not a shopping mall Santa, I'm the real deal....I'm a UPS driver! :lol:


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## Joel N. Weber II (Jul 23, 2008)

the_traveler said:


> If Amtrak were smart (like that would ever happen  ) and start to offer the option of a shower for coach, I wouldn't try it!


What would it take to put a shower in either a coach car or a lounge car? I'm thinking most of the challenge would be finding the physical space for it.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

Isn't there a fixed amount of water in a tank somewhere per car? If I were a sleeper pax opening a dry spigot and found out the water went to a coach pax for anything less _to Amtrak _than I had paid for my ticket, I would be a little waxed.


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## Tony (Jul 23, 2008)

Well...

The dining car is cooking meals anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be given one for free.

There is an empty bedroom anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be able to use it for free.


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## Rail Freak (Jul 23, 2008)

Guest said:


> Isn't there a fixed amount of water in a tank somewhere per car? If I were a sleeper pax opening a dry spigot and found out the water went to a coach pax for anything less _to Amtrak _than I had paid for my ticket, I would be a little waxed.


Seems I remember reading a post that was talking about 3 minute shower controls?


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2008)

Tony said:


> Well...
> The dining car is cooking meals anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be given one for free.
> 
> There is an empty bedroom anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be able to use it for free.



I DON'T think SO!


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## had8ley (Jul 23, 2008)

Tony said:


> Well...
> The dining car is cooking meals anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be given one for free.
> 
> There is an empty bedroom anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be able to use it for free.


Something tells me you would be you might be the first to pick up the phone and call the CEO of Amtrak complaining about "the foul smelling individual" that Amtrak sold a ticket to and made sit next to you. And who knows; he might have worked all night in a hot sweaty foundry and was on his way to see his sick or dying father. There's two sides to every coin. Maybe you need to flip it over once and a while.


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## had8ley (Jul 23, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > If Amtrak were smart (like that would ever happen  ) and start to offer the option of a shower for coach, I wouldn't try it!
> ...


You would also need someone to clean and monitor the facility. Some strange things can happen in coach. With the liquor influence in the lounge it would not be a good location.


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## gswager (Jul 23, 2008)

RailFanLNK said:


> Allthough I'm not a slob and take some pride in my appearence, I've gone 3 days straight with no shower during my busy holiday hours at work. When you walk out the door of your house at 7:30am and return home at 10pm or later, a shower sounds like more effort that I don't want to expend at that very moment. I usually will go to bed, lay out the same uniform in the other bedroom, get up and put on a fresh pair of sox and undies, brush the teeth, deodorant and walk back out the door for another 12+ hour day of work. This goes on for almost a month and I have learned that I don't have to shower up daily. Sometimes I just stick my head under the kitchen sink and shampoo it real quick. By the time Christmas arrives, no matter how much I have showered, I still look and feel like crud! :lol: I usually spend Janurary sleeping as much as I can. So I would easily be able to go 26 hours without a shower!


Can anybody beat me for not taking shower for 7 days? h34r: I did. Good thing that I was somewhere in the mountains with a breeze of mountain scents, backpacking.

I would agree that using washcloth is better than nothing.


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## ThayerATM (Jul 23, 2008)

Tony said:


> Well...
> The dining car is cooking meals anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be given one for free.
> 
> There is an empty bedroom anyway. As a coach passenger, I should be able to use it for free.


The thruway is already there. You should get to use it for free? The train and tracks are already there: :lol: Doesn't make sense to me that you should get to use them for free.

A coach passenger is entitled to everything that they've paid for. A sleeper passenger is entitled to everything that they've paid for. Crossing that line is simply stealing. No amount of rationalization can justify stealing.


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## Rail Freak (Jul 23, 2008)

gswager said:


> RailFanLNK said:
> 
> 
> > Allthough I'm not a slob and take some pride in my appearence, I've gone 3 days straight with no shower during my busy holiday hours at work. When you walk out the door of your house at 7:30am and return home at 10pm or later, a shower sounds like more effort that I don't want to expend at that very moment. I usually will go to bed, lay out the same uniform in the other bedroom, get up and put on a fresh pair of sox and undies, brush the teeth, deodorant and walk back out the door for another 12+ hour day of work. This goes on for almost a month and I have learned that I don't have to shower up daily. Sometimes I just stick my head under the kitchen sink and shampoo it real quick. By the time Christmas arrives, no matter how much I have showered, I still look and feel like crud! :lol: I usually spend Janurary sleeping as much as I can. So I would easily be able to go 26 hours without a shower!
> ...


That was you!  I thought it was a paper mill :lol: !!!


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## Tony (Jul 23, 2008)

had8ley said:


> Something tells me you would be you might be the first to pick up the phone and call the CEO of Amtrak complaining about "the foul smelling individual" that Amtrak sold a ticket to and made sit next to you.


Well, no. I get a roomette. 

And I pay for that. That is why I don't feel that anyone in coach as any right to the same level of service and same extra amenities, but for free.

If someone wants a shower, they need to pay for the level of service which includes a shower.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 23, 2008)

Do any of the larger stations have showers, either free or pay? I think of the showers you see at truck stops and believe with increasing train travel, that could be a little more revenue for the station.


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## Shotgun7 (Jul 23, 2008)

Placing showers in coach would be one of the worst ideas Amtrak ever acted on. For one, compare the public bathrooms in Superliner sleepers to any coach car, be it Superliner, Amfleet, or Horizon. On average, most sleeper bathrooms are immaculately clean and never smell unless the toilet has issues. Most coach bathrooms are smelly, filthy, have clogged toilets, or simply have unwanted "surprises" waiting in the toilets when you walk in. Imagine public coach showers!! You could probably only fit one shower in a coach car of 60 people, for one, so water would run out very quickly and lines would stretch through the coach aisles and possibly through vestibules. People seeking privacy would probably end up doin it in the big shower space and god only knows how much more filth can be added to a shower as opposed to a toilet and sink.

When I said I might possibly "sneak" a shower in a sleeping car at night, I see now the infeasibility of it, but also knew before hand that if SA's knew about this activity, it would be entirely wrong of them to not try to prevent it, I can understand how sleeper pax would be irked about their water supply being wasted on coach pax who paid ALOT less.


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## nr272 (Jul 23, 2008)

gswager said:


> Can anybody beat me for not taking shower for 7 days? h34r: I did. Good thing that I was somewhere in the mountains with a breeze of mountain scents, backpacking.
> I would agree that using washcloth is better than nothing.



I've gone for 2+ weeks without a shower, although I was right on a lake. 

noah


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## Konrad (Jul 23, 2008)

Shotgun7 said:


> Placing showers in coach would be one of the worst ideas Amtrak ever acted on. For one, compare the public bathrooms in Superliner sleepers to any coach car, be it Superliner, Amfleet, or Horizon. On average, most sleeper bathrooms are immaculately clean and never smell unless the toilet has issues. Most coach bathrooms are smelly, filthy, have clogged toilets, or simply have unwanted "surprises" waiting in the toilets when you walk in. Imagine public coach showers!! You could probably only fit one shower in a coach car of 60 people, for one, so water would run out very quickly and lines would stretch through the coach aisles and possibly through vestibules. People seeking privacy would probably end up doin it in the big shower space and god only knows how much more filth can be added to a shower as opposed to a toilet and sink. When I said I might possibly "sneak" a shower in a sleeping car at night, I see now the infeasibility of it, but also knew before hand that if SA's knew about this activity, it would be entirely wrong of them to not try to prevent it, I can understand how sleeper pax would be irked about their water supply being wasted on coach pax who paid ALOT less.


Must be a rough lot you get in coach - Australia has had showers for coach passengers on the transcontinentals for decades (byo towel) and I haven't heard of any problems.

Then, in the U.S. and at home I always take a bedroom and have a shower all to myself!


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## sky12065 (Jul 23, 2008)

I agree with every point made against coach passengers using any sleeping car facilitites up to this message. I will avoid repeating points, but I do have additional issues to add to the discussion.

In refering to Superliners only, you need to keep in mind that each sleeper contains 21 rooms and if you assume that the passenger average for the sleeper is 42 travelers, you then have to realize that ANYONE who is not entitled to use the facilities of that sleeper (includes other sleepers excluding emergency situations) can place a potentially impossible stress on the resources of that car.

My other point is that proper use of the showers or rest rooms already provides a situation that affects passengers in the lower level of the sleeper. I have used the room for disabled passengers on Superliners 8 times in the past. Wish I didn't but c'est la vie! Now all the passengers of that sleeper need to use the shower near the H room and many need to use the 2 or 3 available restrooms on the lower level... also near the H room.

(Side Note: One of the restrooms in the lower level is frequently used for storage and I've never seen the shower used as noted in another post - not that it hasn't happened)

During the night when we are trying to sleep, we frequently hear and are fustrated by the banging of the doors when people try to close them, the baming of the doors by train movements because either people can't get them closed properly and because some just don't care to bother trying and/or be considerate of others. The whooshing of the flushes are also disturbing. BUT... as I already said, that's all proper and expected usage of the facilities. Increase this factor by X other passengers who don't pay for sleeper priviledges and it doesn't take much to realize the financial and health issues that can be caused through narcissistic or innocent usage by those who are not entitled.

As I use to say about work before I retired from public service, the vast majority of people are good people, but there are always a few that ruin things for others. I guess the same can be said about train travel as well!


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 24, 2008)

RobertF said:


> Shotgun7 said:
> 
> 
> > Crap, I forgot about getting put off the train. That would certainly not be too fun. I didn't know Amtrak staff takes it that seriously. I think I'll make due with deoderant... <_<
> ...


Someone who smokes on the train being removed? I hope they didn't stop the train to remove him. Nay, he should be thrown off the train while its moving, preferably by Richard Kiel. Seriously, smoking on a train is a horrible, horrible thing to do, and damn straight he should be put off. I know people smoke, and thats unfortunate. I know its an addiction. You can do it on the platform at crew changes, or not take Amtrak, as far as I'm concerned.



gswager said:


> RailFanLNK said:
> 
> 
> > Allthough I'm not a slob and take some pride in my appearence, I've gone 3 days straight with no shower during my busy holiday hours at work. When you walk out the door of your house at 7:30am and return home at 10pm or later, a shower sounds like more effort that I don't want to expend at that very moment. I usually will go to bed, lay out the same uniform in the other bedroom, get up and put on a fresh pair of sox and undies, brush the teeth, deodorant and walk back out the door for another 12+ hour day of work. This goes on for almost a month and I have learned that I don't have to shower up daily. Sometimes I just stick my head under the kitchen sink and shampoo it real quick. By the time Christmas arrives, no matter how much I have showered, I still look and feel like crud! :lol: I usually spend Janurary sleeping as much as I can. So I would easily be able to go 26 hours without a shower!
> ...


I've gone for several weeks in a row without showering, bathing, or immersing myself in water. Its not pleasant, I know, but its doable. Certainly doing so for 26 hours is tolerable!


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## Shotgun7 (Jul 24, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> RobertF said:
> 
> 
> > Shotgun7 said:
> ...


I'm really okay going several days without a shower, in fact when I'm not planning to be around friends for a few days, I don't really care about my smell or appearance. I just enjoy showering on a train in particular. Also, since train vacations are the best I have, it's always nice to be refreshed for your second day on the rails and also be able to sit next to/across from somebody at a meal confident that your odor doesn't overpower that of the food they're eating.


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## Neil_M (Jul 24, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I've gone for several weeks in a row without showering, bathing, or immersing myself in water. Its not pleasant, I know, but its doable. Certainly doing so for 26 hours is tolerable!


Several weeks?

You might be happy being a stinking humming thing but what about the people around you?

Several weeks with washing yourself is just not normal.


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## Ryan (Jul 24, 2008)

Usually in that type of situation the people around you haven't bathed in weeks as well, so it isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.

Pretty sure that GML didn't say that it was normal, but that's just me.


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## VentureForth (Jul 24, 2008)

First choice: If you can't get an onboard upgrade for an entire leg, ask the conductor if a sleeper is available for a day portion between city pairs. IE: If you're going between BOS and SEA, you might could get a roomette for a portion of the trip that isn't sold. For instance, for tomorrow, amtrak.com shows that #49 is sold out between ALB & CHI. BUT, I also see that there is a viewliner roomette available from TOL to CHI (coach sold out). You may not be able to get a sleeper between Albany and Chicago, but perhaps just the last 4 hours or so from Toledo... The best part is that it'll be cheaper than the whole leg (if available) and you'll get metrolounge access in CHI (make sure you get a receipt). Same thing on the EB. Maybe something available from Spokane into Seattle.

Alternative choice: Wetwipes.


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## frj1983 (Jul 24, 2008)

Does anybody remember when even the Superliner Sleepers did not have showers?? :huh:

I've been riding Amtrak since the early 80's and I do remember the days when Superliner I Sleepers did not have showers in them...you did the same thing as people in coach did, you washed up (as best as you could) in the bathrooms or in your bedrooms.

I can't remember when the Superliner I Sleepers were retrofitted with showers (early 90's?), but there were times when there were no showers on board. Somehow people got on/along without showering!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jul 24, 2008)

frj1983 said:


> Does anybody remember when even the Superliner Sleepers did not have showers?? :huh:
> I've been riding Amtrak since the early 80's and I do remember the days when Superliner I Sleepers did not have showers in them...you did the same thing as people in coach did, you washed up (as best as you could) in the bathrooms or in your bedrooms.
> 
> I can't remember when the Superliner I Sleepers were retrofitted with showers (early 90's?), but there were times when there were no showers on board. Somehow people got on/along without showering!


This is so much the point I was trying to make several posts ago. We have gotten spoiled to sleeping car showers(not that I would want them taken back). Generations of people years ago who rode the trains much more than they do now got along quite nicely without showers. As stated previously only seven or eight trains in the whole country even had a shower before Amtrak,and that was usually one shower in one private room in one car. The pre-Amtrak Sunset Limited had a shower in the lounge car--guess it was open to any sleeping car passengers, I am sure not coach. But most were not that public.

This is one of the ways Amtrak has clearly made progress over the "good old days". I wish I had tried a shower in the old pre-Amtrak days so I could compare. But it was not to be.


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## VentureForth (Jul 24, 2008)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Heck, this could happen to you...


Off topic shoot. Sorry, but this story really bums me. At the request of the Texas Highway Patrol, I helped stop a man on the I-30 frontage road who was driving irradically. When the driver stopped, he got out of his car and approached mine asking for directions when the THP finally arrived. This guy could have caused about half a dozen serious wrecks by the way he was driving At the time, frontage roads on both the Eastbound and Westbound sides of the Interstate were bi-directional. That's since changed.

After the Trooper evaluated the driver, he came back to me and told me that the guy didn't have a lick of alcohol on him. Turned out he was diabetic and didn't have his insulin with him. He couldn't be charged with DUI, but I'm sure he could have been charged with reckless endangerment.

Fast forward to this story. Amtrak should have a breathalizer onboard to determine if someone who is acting beligerent is drunk or suffering from a medical anomolie. Either way, the passenger probably needed to be removed - just like the driver in my story needed to get off the road. But then the question becomes "By ambulance or by cop". At no time, EVER should Amtrak drop off a human being without some sort of postive transfer of responsibility. I'm thankful that this man was found and taken care of. Amtrak has some 'splainin' to do to the family.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

VentureForth said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > Heck, this could happen to you...
> ...


100% in agreement with you. Besides diabetes, strokes, and seizures, there are a number of conditions which are neurological in nature and could be misconstrued as an issue with alcohol or illegal drugs. The "walk the straight line with one foot in front of another" test IS a neurological test... the same one given by my neurologist every year for seizures. Several people have recently told of other balance issues, such as rocks in the ears, which can cause the inability to stay standing up... The list is long.

Note, that this topic (diabetic thrown off train) was covered on this forum last year. Although people with medical problems should travel responsibly, there are times when no amount of planning can prevent something from happening.


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## Ghost (Jul 24, 2008)

Guest said:


> Note, that this topic (diabetic thrown off train) was covered on this forum last year. Although people with medical problems should travel responsibly, there are times when no amount of planning can prevent something from happening.


I re-read that report, and I don't read in it anywhere, that this person was indeed suffering from any form of diabetic condition or any other medical condition that day. None at all.

His family, not himself, made a vague reference to the man possibly being diagnosed as having diabetes. There is nothing at all, that his man's diabetes (if he even really has such) is even serious enough to need medication or medical attention. Clearly, it wasn't even serious enough for him to have a medical ID bracelet.

Plus, we have no idea about how much he was liquor he consumed. I am sure that the conductor had a quick side chat with the lounge attendant about that, before making any decision.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

Ghost said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Note, that this topic (diabetic thrown off train) was covered on this forum last year. Although people with medical problems should travel responsibly, there are times when no amount of planning can prevent something from happening.
> ...


Google "diabetic thrown off train" and different explanations pop up, some that seem to support that he had been recently diagnosed with diabetes (not enough time to adjust and get an medical id made). I don't know one way or the other who is correct but I do like one response to the situation: If Amtrak doesn't want to handle drunks, quit sousing the passengers with alcohol. The promotion last year (?) of cheap or free alcohol was a very dumb idea.


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## haolerider (Jul 24, 2008)

Guest said:


> Ghost said:
> 
> 
> > Guest said:
> ...


You have the wrong company to blame for last year's liquor promotion. It actually had nothing to do with Amtrak. It was a GrandLuxe promotion that allowed their guests, on their equipment, to use a coupon for drinks in their lounge. Amtrak just happened to be pulling their equipment. The promotion did not come from Amtrak, but they got all the blame.


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## AlanB (Jul 24, 2008)

haolerider said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Ghost said:
> ...


Correct, that free liquor was not an Amtrak promotion. One only got free liquor by riding in the GrandLuxe portion of the train and one paid a hefty premium to ride in the GrandLuxe cars.

It is also important to note that the man "thrown" off the train wasn't actually kicked off the train in the middle of nowhere all by himself. After the train came to a halt, the conductor opened the door of the train and the man ran out on his own before the conductor could stop him. Additionally, the man did so in the full view of the cop(s) (not sure if it was one or two) that were there to escort him off the train. I've not seen the official report, but some reports say that the police did nothing. No effort was made to pursue the man at that time by the police.

In any event, they were just as much to blame, if not more so than Amtrak. And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place, regardless of what medical issues he may or may not have had and that includes possibly being drunk.

The news made it sound like the conductor just stopped the train at a crossing and kicked the man off with no one around. That isn't what happened, the man ran away in the full sight of the police and the conductor. And once he got off the train that was really the end of Amtrak's responsibility since he got off voluntarily, even if he was suffering from a medical condition. The conductor isn't an EMT or a doctor, he/she can't diagnose these things and he/she still has a responsibility to the other 200 to 300 people on the train also. He can't just start running after the guy or leaping out of the train to tackle him.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

"And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"

Have you been around many diabetics when their sugar levels are moving to the extremes?

Just curious.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

Did the Grand Luxe pax get to move back and forth between cars and use any of the regular Amtrak facilities?


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## AlanB (Jul 24, 2008)

Guest said:


> "And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"
> Have you been around many diabetics when their sugar levels are moving to the extremes?
> 
> Just curious.


Actually, yes, once. Not an experience that I'd care to repeat frankly, as it can get rather scary.

However, in this case I was referring to the fact that if we assume that what the family was telling the truth that he was newly diagnosed with the disease, I blame him for boarding a long distance train without taking the proper steps to manage his care. He boarded that train with no medicine, no medical ID bracelet, no doctor's note, or anything else to help identify his true problem or treat it.

I don't blame him for running away in the midst of a diabetic fit, if again that is what indeed happened. And I'm not suggesting that it isn't true. I simply don't know for sure one way or the other. I've never seen anything beyond the family’s claims that he was newly diagnosed.


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## AlanB (Jul 24, 2008)

Guest said:


> Did the Grand Luxe pax get to move back and forth between cars and use any of the regular Amtrak facilities?


No, the passengers from the GrandLuxe trains that were hooked to the back of regularly scheduled Amtrak trains last fall/winter were not allowed to interact with the regular Amtrak passengers. In the case of the western trains, I don't even think that they had a Trans/Dorm between the Superliners and the single level GrandLuxe cars.

But the cars certainly did use the Amtrak stations, although only the major ones. One could not board at most of the Amtrak stops, just the end point cities and in a few cases a major city like say Orlando on the Silvers.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > "And frankly the biggest blame goes to the man in the first place"
> ...


Alan, A close relative suffers (and it is truly something you suffer with) type 1 (the auto immune disease) and I could see him doing something like what has been reported. I would think that he (the pax)should have been treated as someone who "lacked capacity" (contractual term) to make ANY decisions. An example of someone lacking capacity would be a minor entering a contract. An insane person probably lacks capacity.

Just so readers know, some people are considered "brittle" diabetics. Things in that field are changing fast but their blood sugar can go in either direction at the drop of a hat. As my relative explained, "I felt it, walked 10 feet and dropped." He's been diagnosed for about 30 years. He does wear id.

We would also have to consider whether Amtrak was suffering any delays and whether he had access to food. If he made it known that he needed something and met up with an obstinate employee that could have contributed to the problem. You're right, we know little about the situation.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2008)

..still curious.

Does the Amtrak conductor have control over the GrandLuxe?


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## AlanB (Jul 24, 2008)

Guest said:


> ..still curious.
> Does the Amtrak conductor have control over the GrandLuxe?


Yes, with regard to the safe operating of the entire train and the GrandLuxe cars in particular. However if someone had a service issue with GrandLuxe, the Amtrak conductor wouldn't care at all.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Jul 24, 2008)

Guest said:


> ..still curious.
> Does the Amtrak conductor have control over the GrandLuxe?



Yes.

OBS gone freight...


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## AlanB (Jul 24, 2008)

Guest said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Guest said:
> ...


IIRC since it was a year or so ago, that train was largely on time and there were no food issues, beyond perhaps his own making.

As for what to do, Amtrak personel aren't trained to deal with medical situations in general. I believe that they may have CPR training, and perhaps some very basic first aid, but beyond that the standard is to call for help and then stop the train at the nearest point to that help. Even if the nearest point is the middle of a grade crossing on a road in the middle of no where. The crew then turns over control of the individual to the appropriate authorities.

This is what the conductor was attempting to do. He had radioed for the police to remove this person. Doesn't much matter if it's a true drunk or someone suffering from low blood sugar, which is making him appear drunk. The train stops, the conductor opens the door, and the man bolts from the train right in front of the responding officer.

Why is the conductor getting all the blame, and I'm not directing this at you specifically guest? I'm directing this at the news, the family, and anyone else. The officer was right there, he saw the man run off too and did nothing! Why is he not getting some of the blame?

It's not like the conductor has handcuffs, which in the case of a diabetic suffering from insulin shock would then been considered cruel and unusual punishment if he had handcuffs and had used them. The conductor followed procedures. He had an unruly passenger for whatever reason. He made arrangements to have the person removed from the train, he stops the train at the appointed place, and before he can officially complete the transfer of the individual, the person in question runs away from both the conductor and the officer. Why is it his fault that the man was lost in the woods for three days? And if he was suffering from low blood sugar, how did he survive for three days without any food or treatment? Most diabetics would have lapsed into a coma and died by that point in time.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 25, 2008)

Neil_M said:


> Several weeks?You might be happy being a stinking humming thing but what about the people around you?
> 
> Several weeks with washing yourself is just not normal.


Lets see here.



> Normal: Adj.. 1) technical (of a line, ray, or other linear feature) intersecting a given line or surface at right angles. 2) Medicine (of a salt solution) containing the same salt concentration as the blood. 3) Geology denoting a fault or faulting in which a relative downward movement occurred in the strata situated on the upper side of the fault plane. 4) conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.


1) No, I'm not intersecting a given point at right angles. Except in a few choice cases in the kitchen cutting things, but thats not usual.

2) I'm not a solution containing the same salt concentration as blood.

3) No, I am not a geological fault in which a relative downward movement occured. Infact, I'm not in the past tense yet, thankfully.

4) Thank the lord, I do not conform to anyones standard but my own, and certainly not typical. If you know me well enough, though, I guess you can expect me to do the expected- of me, anyway.

So you're right, I'm not normal. I've never claimed to be normal. As for the circumstances where I would not shower for weeks at a time, I was either with the rough-house group of people I used to hang with on some ridiculous adventure, or isolated in my office working on something that held my interest.


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## Guest_timetableflagman_* (Jul 25, 2008)

Certainly, AMTRAK, or any other carrier, should never put anyone off without there being other available public transportation and facilities for the person. Nevertheless, in any real urgent case, having the police or other appropriate emergency personnel meet the train anywhere is the best option.

AMTRAK could offer shower access to coach passengers for half the accommodation extra fare. It would certainly have to be on their ticket, presented to the sleeping car attendant for admittance.


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## VentureForth (Jul 25, 2008)

I've always advocated coin operated showers in coach. 1 Susan B per minute of hot water. Of course, then it would fail, you'd lose money, the crew wouldn't care...


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Alan, it does look like there was some irresponsible reporting going on at the same time that took on a life of its own as diabetic support groups got wind of the story as originally reported. I've not seen it first hand but did see a secondhand references that Amtrak's Media Relations person, Marc M., released information saying the conductor was waiting on the platform with the indvidual when he bolted... and that previous to that he had been acting out (my words) on the train. Elsewhere it said that he had been diagnosed the day before the trip. Other rumors are that Amtrak perked up its training about the circumstances acceptable for "throwing a pax off".

From my experiences, the guy's actions were consistent with diabetes, whether his sugar levels were too high or too low. As we've discovered in my family, the body can hide some sugar that it draws on before the final straw (It's probably measured more in minutes rather than days.) My family member discovered this after a drop left him upside down in his vehicle and he aroused. One day of diagnosis is not adequate time to adjust to a lifetime of new habits. One story also said that the individual was to control it through diet and not meds. My family member's case is an insulin issue not an excess of diet. Again, just for clarity, type 1 is an autoimmune disease, type II is more of a metabolic and life style problem. And, if what I've read is correct, there are additional variations on these.

I wonder about the police response as well. ....As far as the handcuffs. Plastic hand restraints are available to flight crews. I wonder why they aren't available to the conductor?


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## AlanB (Jul 25, 2008)

Guest said:


> I wonder about the police response as well. ....As far as the handcuffs. Plastic hand restraints are available to flight crews. I wonder why they aren't available to the conductor?


I don't know why they don't give them to a conductor, although perhaps it's simply because he can pretty much stop the train at any grade crossing to get help, whereas a plane can't just stop in a matter of minutes many times. However, unless the conductor had bound the man's feet, restraints probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of this story one bit. And had the conductor done so, bound his hands and feet, now we're back into the realm of cruel and unusual punishment. Basically a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't situation.


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## had8ley (Jul 26, 2008)

I can just imagine the Battle Royale in the court rooms when a lounge lizard sobered up and realized that he was in the drunk tank of Bum Diddle Podunk USA. No, I think stopping the train until the appropriate officials show up is the only way to handle unruly pax.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2008)

Do conductors have arrest powers or the authority to restrain people?


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## GAT (Jul 26, 2008)

This topic seems to have expanded beyond sneaking a shower, soooooo...Just wondering.....Is smoking on Amtrak illegal (presumambly under federal law) or simply a violation of Amtrak rules and your ticket contract?


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## haolerider (Jul 26, 2008)

George said:


> This topic seems to have expanded beyond sneaking a shower, soooooo...Just wondering.....Is smoking on Amtrak illegal (presumambly under federal law) or simply a violation of Amtrak rules and your ticket contract?


It is a violation of the Amtrak policies and rules.


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## AlanB (Jul 26, 2008)

haolerider said:


> George said:
> 
> 
> > This topic seems to have expanded beyond sneaking a shower, soooooo...Just wondering.....Is smoking on Amtrak illegal (presumambly under federal law) or simply a violation of Amtrak rules and your ticket contract?
> ...


And conductors can and will put people off the train for violating that policy. I've seen it done, or rather I've heard it being done. And I did see one guy get dropped off at a grade crossing for a free night in jail for being drunk and molesting the women on the train.


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## CREW-DORM #2524 (Jul 27, 2008)

Guest said:


> Do conductors have arrest powers or the authority to restrain people?



Short and sweet, basically if the psgr gets violent the psgr can be physically restrained. ZipTies work wonders for us!


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