# TSA Spotted at Chicago Union Station



## David McDonough (Jul 4, 2013)

No checkpoints or searches...

http://twitter.com/actingdork/status/352830848262885376/photo/1


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## SubwayNut (Jul 4, 2013)

I'm in Chicago and noticed them too. I arrived yesterday from the Milwaukee Airport where there were about four TSA inspectors and a Milwaukee County Sherrif with his dog. Luckily for me I got my full photo essay and they didn't say anything nor do any searches. My next stop of the day was a two hour layover at SVT there was also a TSA inspector as his jacket said on the platform watching both my trains pass through. He dissapeared during the 2 hour layover and didn't bother me except we did chat about trespassing when a man looked like he was going to try and cross the tracks with his luggage to avoid the overpass after we got an announcement that the train would be wrong-railing into the station. We both yelled at him to use the overpass which he luckily did.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 4, 2013)

They show up in Norman OK from time to time when the southbound _*Heartland Flyer*_ comes through but generally just piddle around on the platform, look around a bit and watch pax board. The most I've seen them interact is casual chat with passengers, possibly a result of the passenger asking them a question.


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## berkyo (Jul 4, 2013)

I have seen them board the train many times in Buffalo. Guns at their side. They question folks on where they born and where they are going. Did not see them last trip. Saw them last May on the EB west of Chicago, but cannot remember the station. They spent quite a lot of time with an elderly oriental traveling with family, who did not have his cards with him. Daughter translated that he does not realize he needs them. Frustrated TSA's just told the daughter to make sure he has them in the future. They were all very polite and then got off the train.


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## PRR 60 (Jul 4, 2013)

berkyo said:


> I have seen them board the train many times in Buffalo. Guns at their side. They question folks on where they born and where they are going. Did not see them last trip. Saw them last May on the EB west of Chicago, but cannot remember the station. They spent quite a lot of time with an elderly oriental traveling with family, who did not have his cards with him. Daughter translated that he does not realize he needs them. Frustrated TSA's just told the daughter to make sure he has them in the future. They were all very polite and then got off the train.


Not TSA. Border Patrol. TSA agents are not armed.


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## jerichowhiskey (Jul 4, 2013)

TSA were on the NYP concourse when I went up to Boston a couple weeks ago. It looked like they were going to do random checks.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't like this. I'm going to PVD from CHI in about a month and a half and I refuse to have anything to do with those blue-shirted..._things_.

I can hope that getting my ticket and making a beeline for the Metro Lounge, then hanging out in there until boarding, will be enough to keep me away from them, but if I wanted to be treated with suspicion by a pig-thug I'd have taken an airplane instead.

I have AmtrakOfficial as a news channel on Flipboard (tablet news software) and they released a new video about RAIL-SAFE. I really hope this isn't a sign of more TSA nonsense in train stations. Maybe it was just a 4th of July thing, but I worry anyway.

I feel much LESS safe whenever TSA is around.


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## David McDonough (Jul 5, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> I don't like this. I'm going to PVD from CHI in about a month and a half and I refuse to have anything to do with those blue-shirted..._things_.
> I can hope that getting my ticket and making a beeline for the Metro Lounge, then hanging out in there until boarding, will be enough to keep me away from them, but if I wanted to be treated with suspicion by a pig-thug I'd have taken an airplane instead.
> 
> I have AmtrakOfficial as a news channel on Flipboard (tablet news software) and they released a new video about RAIL-SAFE. I really hope this isn't a sign of more TSA nonsense in train stations. Maybe it was just a 4th of July thing, but I worry anyway.
> ...


Well, today for the SWC, they had 2 lines, people with suitcases and no bags were free to go, but people with backpacks were forced to a search of all there belongings. They had 2 machines set up on the table but I am not sure what they were for.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 5, 2013)

David McDonough said:


> CelticWhisper said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like this. I'm going to PVD from CHI in about a month and a half and I refuse to have anything to do with those blue-shirted..._things_.
> ...


Any other details? Did they open up bags and rifle through possessions? Take anything out of bags? Ask any questions?

Who was doing the search - APD/CPD officers or TSA clerks?

Did anyone refuse? If so, what happened?

On a related note, just penned this letter which I intend to send to Amtrak customer relations as well as APD. (JoeBas and anyone else who frequents TUG will be familiar with my lengthy letters)

Anyone know the best way to send it to them? Mailing addresses for Amtrak and/or APD?

UPDATE: Revised edition of letter.



> *Re: *RAIL-SAFE and TSA interaction when traveling by rail
> 
> 
> To Whom it May Concern,
> ...


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## EMDF9A (Jul 5, 2013)

Homeland Security was all over Portland Union Station today between the departure of #11 and the arrival of #14. About a half dozen agents in black with "Homeland Security Police" on them and about another 6 plan clothes agents that you could obviously tell were "packing heat" I was standing in the boarding area in full T&R Uniform wearing my ID and they questioned me about why I was there and asked for further ID. I did not see them take away anyone


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 5, 2013)

Yesterday was a National Holiday. Why are people surprised to see increased security?


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## MiRider (Jul 5, 2013)

Two questions....

What or where is TUG?

What is T&R and why would wearing a T&R uniform cause further ID checks and questions?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 5, 2013)

T&R is, I believe, Trails & Rails. He does narratives on the train.

No clue regarding TUG, but suspect it's anti-TSA.


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## MiRider (Jul 5, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> T&R is, I believe, Trails & Rails. He does narratives on the train.No clue regarding TUG, but suspect it's anti-TSA.


Duh. It's still early for me. Thanks AB.


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## MiRider (Jul 5, 2013)

Here's the video CW referred to from Amtrak's Official YouTube channel:


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 5, 2013)

TUG = Travel Underground. Sorry, I get so used to using the abbreviations at that site I don't notice when I'm using them in unfamiliar company.


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## MiRider (Jul 5, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> TUG = Travel Underground. Sorry, I get so used to using the abbreviations at that site I don't notice when I'm using them in unfamiliar company.


Thanks, CW - I'm going to check it out.

I DESPISE TSA and won't fly because of it.

I experienced crappy, typical TSA ugliness on my last flight in 2011.

Like you, after my first Amtrak trip I became a full blown rail aficionado.

The thought of having to deal with security theater anywhere enrages me.

For me, it's either the train or drive.

I don't drive long distances or on highways at all so, for all solo travel, it's the train for me.

I'd be sad if the train wasn't an option anymore because I love it so much, but not so much that I'm going to subject myself to TSA BS.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 5, 2013)

That's where I'm at. We took a road trip to Houston this January since I'd never been on one and we figured it'd be an adventure, and it was. Again, no security anywhere, and a LACK of security is GOOD.

I'm still trying to find a mailing address to send this letter to in hopes that someone at Amtrak will care and give me a meaningful response. Anyone know the best way to get a long document like this to them? I'm assuming it's well beyond any character limits that would be imposed on web comment forms.


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## MikefromCrete (Jul 5, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> That's where I'm at. We took a road trip to Houston this January since I'd never been on one and we figured it'd be an adventure, and it was. Again, no security anywhere, and a LACK of security is GOOD.
> I'm still trying to find a mailing address to send this letter to in hopes that someone at Amtrak will care and give me a meaningful response. Anyone know the best way to get a long document like this to them? I'm assuming it's well beyond any character limits that would be imposed on web comment forms.


Put it in an envelope and mail it to them?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 5, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Yesterday was a National Holiday. Why are people surprised to see increased security?


Yeah, why are people surprised to be searched and surveilled while in the process celebrating their independence?

Irony much?


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 5, 2013)

MikefromCrete said:


> CelticWhisper said:
> 
> 
> > That's where I'm at. We took a road trip to Houston this January since I'd never been on one and we figured it'd be an adventure, and it was. Again, no security anywhere, and a LACK of security is GOOD.
> ...


Right, that's my plan, just trying to track down a mailing address. They don't make it easy to find on their website.

...Aaaaaaaand found it. http://trainweb.org/crocon/contactamtrak.html

Now just need to do the same thing for Amtrak Police Dep't.


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## MiRider (Jul 5, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Yesterday was a National Holiday. Why are people surprised to see increased security?
> ...


No kidding!

Next thing you know, the sheeple will be thanking the TSA for their service.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 5, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Yesterday was a National Holiday. Why are people surprised to see increased security?


It's not that I'm _surprised_, per se. I wish I were, but I'm not. Dismayed, however, is something I would certainly say about my feelings regarding this.

Safety is not universally self-justifying. There are times when it is okay, preferable, or even necessary to remain unsafe in the service of some other goal. In a(n ostensibly) free country, preserving privacy, dignity, rights and a well-founded perception of liberty is one such goal that should supersede safety and security in importance and vigor of pursuit. The fact that the holiday in question is a celebration of exactly that kind of goal is only further grounds for objecting to an ever-expanding, ever-encroaching (and ever-incompetent) security apparatus. Doubly so when the incident whose response entailed the creation of such an apparatus (9/11) is physically impossible in the paradigm of rail travel - plainly, no train can be driven off the rails into a skyscraper - and when there are far, far easier ways to threaten a train than by bringing something onboard by way of a large, metropolitan rail terminal.

No, TSA has no place in train stations, nor should they ever be allowed to think they're welcome. APD is actually good at what they do and has no need for incompetent federal clerks (not officers, not agents) causing problems for them, Amtrak employees, or (most importantly) Amtrak passengers.


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## RobertB (Jul 5, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Yesterday was a National Holiday. Why are people surprised to see increased security?
> ...


Not that driving gets you as much freedom as it once did. Ever hear of "No Refusal Weekend"? I like to call it "What Fifth Amendment? weekend".


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## gmushial (Jul 5, 2013)

JoanieB said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakBlue said:
> ...


Sheeple, yes; real people, ones that remember this country for what it was once: don't think so


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## amamba (Jul 5, 2013)

Celtic, be prepared to interact with Amtrak PD in the providence station. This morning there were two female officers walking through the station and swiping bags for explosives. There was also a male officer with a dog. No TSA though.

I also saw these same two officers swabbing bags on my last trip south about a month ago.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 5, 2013)

amamba said:


> Celtic, be prepared to interact with Amtrak PD in the providence station. This morning there were two female officers walking through the station and swiping bags for explosives. There was also a male officer with a dog. No TSA though.
> I also saw these same two officers swabbing bags on my last trip south about a month ago.


Do you know if they're there every day or only on certain days? How frequently do their ETD machines return false positives and what happens when/if they do?

Also, I had read in another thread here (I think it was a recent continuation of a [email protected] thread from last year) that searches are supposed to be voluntary. Has anyone had success saying "Thanks, but no thanks" when asked?

I'm not necessarily averse to an APD officer (not a TSA clerk) swabbing the outside of (not searching through) my bags (not my person - TSA swabs travelers' hands), but the far end of my journey isn't the place where I'd want anything to go wrong.

Ideally I'd like to sit on a bench, reading a book and waiting for my train, and if they want to bring a dog by I can just ignore it/them and keep reading, and if they want to just touch the outside of my bags I can basically do the same thing. Is this ideal realistic?

Thanks.


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## jis (Jul 5, 2013)

Here is a bit of interesting news, quoting from the July 5 2013 NARP Newsletter:



> US Rep. Scott Garrett (R-NJ) introduced a bill Tuesday to prohibit the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) from searching passengers anywhere other than at airports, arguing that the job of keeping ground transportation systems safe is better left to local law enforcement.
> 
> Rep. Garrett said he is concerned by the activities of the TSA’s Visible Intermodal Prevention and Response (VIPR) unit, which has conducted thousands of unannounced and random searches of passengers and their bags at train stations and intercity bus and ferry terminals. Garrett says VIPR allows TSA, part of the US Department of Homeland Security, to violate passengers’ Fourth Amendment rights.
> 
> "By the TSA’s own account, these random searches have done little to make the American people any safer," Garrett told The Hill newspaper. "After VIPR teams had conducted over 9,000 operations, including random truck and bus inspections on a Tennessee highway, the Los Angeles Times revealed in December 2011 that ‘TSA officials say they have no proof that roving [VIPR] teams have foiled any terrorist plots or thwarted any major threat to public safety.’ This is not security, this is security theater."


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## SarahZ (Jul 5, 2013)

Good for him. Having the TSA at a train station is stupid. I don't mind the wandering drug and bomb dogs (they're so cute!). Plus, as he said, the TSA has no place in ground transportation. Leave it to local law enforcement and Amtrak security.


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## chakk (Jul 5, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > Celtic, be prepared to interact with Amtrak PD in the providence station. This morning there were two female officers walking through the station and swiping bags for explosives. There was also a male officer with a dog. No TSA though.
> ...


I think the meaning of "searches are voluntary" is that you can refuse to be searched, at which point you will not be allowed to board the train/plane/whatever and you will be politely escorted out of the security area and back to the front door of the airport/train station/whatever.

What is not clear to me is what would happen if you were already in a secure area (legitimately, from a prior screening somewhere else) and the security officials requested to screen you again. This happens in places like the Frankfurt (Germany) airport, where their version of the TSA routinely sets up secondary screening areas "downstream" of the main screening area. But in between those two areas are many shops selling food, drinks, etc. And the officials at the "unadvertised" secondary screening area get upset when you show up with drinks in hand that you purchased downstream of the primary screening area.


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## amamba (Jul 5, 2013)

I have no idea who's often they are there or what says other than frequently. I don't know what happens if they get a false positive - I have never observed them

Getting a positive reading.

In regards to sitting quietly on a bench - yes that is what you willdo. And then the team of officers walks through the station and swabs bags while you are sitting. This is avast improvement from last year when they would set up a table and make everyone taking the escalator to the at form submit to the search.

It's just Amtrak PD ( no TSA) and they don't touch your person or search your bag. Just swab the exterior. This morning they didy suitcase and I asked if they wanted to swab my purse, too. The officer chuckled, said no, and then said what she really wanted to do was go home.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 5, 2013)

amamba said:


> I have no idea who's often they are there or what says other than frequently. I don't know what happens if they get a false positive - I have never observed themGetting a positive reading.
> 
> In regards to sitting quietly on a bench - yes that is what you willdo. And then the team of officers walks through the station and swabs bags while you are sitting. This is avast improvement from last year when they would set up a table and make everyone taking the escalator to the at form submit to the search.
> 
> It's just Amtrak PD ( no TSA) and they don't touch your person or search your bag. Just swab the exterior. This morning they didy suitcase and I asked if they wanted to swab my purse, too. The officer chuckled, said no, and then said what she really wanted to do was go home.


Thanks, that actually helps a lot. Not sure if it's the wine talking or if it's actually reassurance, but that seems...at least okay.


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## amamba (Jul 5, 2013)

Sorry for the typos I am on my phone. Happy to help!


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## dlagrua (Jul 6, 2013)

This whole TSA/Homeland Security thing is ridiculous.. It is impossible for a small force to inspect every station (most of them are unmanned) and thousands and thousands of miles of track, bridges and tunnels. On Amtrak it is up to the passengers and crew to act as observers and report anything suspicious to the Amtrak police.


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## Matthew Dobeck (Jul 6, 2013)

As bad as the TSA is - I have no problem with them being at Amtrak stations.


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## jis (Jul 6, 2013)

chakk said:


> What is not clear to me is what would happen if you were already in a secure area (legitimately, from a prior screening somewhere else) and the security officials requested to screen you again. This happens in places like the Frankfurt (Germany) airport, where their version of the TSA routinely sets up secondary screening areas "downstream" of the main screening area. But in between those two areas are many shops selling food, drinks, etc. And the officials at the "unadvertised" secondary screening area get upset when you show up with drinks in hand that you purchased downstream of the primary screening area.


At Ben Gurion Airport in Israel, you are allowed to purchase things like wines and stuff from Duty Free shops and you are even allowed to take them on local and European flights, but not on flights to the US. The secondary check at the boarding points makes you get rid of all liquids beyond the 3-1-1 rule. Apparently no one is told before hand (other than the fine print in the Ben Gurion Security Procedures note that you can find somewhere on the airline web site I am told. I have never looked for it. Thus there are many ticked off passengers who are out of pocket for the expensive liquor that they just purchased. All that they can do is consume as much of it as possible before boarding I suppose. And this is just on United. If you are traveling El Al that is an entirely different level of security that applies there.

In the reverse direction, while arriving in Israel, the last hour of the flight everyone is required to be belted into their seat, with no moving about in the cabin. Basically the plane is put in a lockdown state before it enters Israeli airspace.

So while we have a few silly security procedures they are nowhere near as bad as things get where there is real security threats that people deal with every day.

Of course in Israel you do not make a fuss about these things unless you want to spend the next six hours going through a strip search. They take their airport security pretty darned seriously, and for very obvious reasons.


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## JoeBas (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm at the outbound destination on a round trip to the east coast. Didn't see a single TSA mouth breather, and only had to show my ID once, when checking bags.

The only civilized way to travel.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 6, 2013)

JoeBas said:


> I'm at the outbound destination on a round trip to the east coast. Didn't see a single TSA mouth breather, and only had to show my ID once, when checking bags.
> The only civilized way to travel.


This is at CUS?


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## boxcarsyix (Jul 7, 2013)

The whole thing is ugly. The "Rail Safe" Video clamed that the "Presence is definatly effective". How do they know that? Is it just aother case of making a statement they hope we will believe? A "presence" is one thing, having to walk between two black uniforms with automatic weapons is another. The only "plots" that I am aware of involve sabataging the track, not trying to carry a bomb onboard. Some of those pictures invoke memories of **** Germany or the old Soviet Union. They really have no place in our soceity.

We have spent billions on the DHS and have received little benefit yet caused a lot of heartache. But it is, after all, just another government agency trying to build another empire. No real suprise!


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## boxcarsyix (Jul 7, 2013)

**** Germany? Sorry I was using it in an historical context. Evidently it is a bad word.


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## JoeBas (Jul 7, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > I'm at the outbound destination on a round trip to the east coast. Didn't see a single TSA mouth breather, and only had to show my ID once, when checking bags.
> ...


No, this was HOS-NOL-PHI


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## jis (Jul 7, 2013)

Wait till you get to PHL


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## PRR 60 (Jul 7, 2013)

jis said:


> Wait till you get to PHL


Indeed! :lol:


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## JoeBas (Jul 7, 2013)

Club Acela bypasses all the folderol.

Because, you know, only Hoi Paloi are dangerous tewwowists.


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## DR04 (Jul 7, 2013)

David McDonough said:


> No checkpoints or searches...http://twitter.com/actingdork/status/352830848262885376/photo/1


I can't tell if this guy was working or not.

I ride with TSA employees out of CUS every day. They are commuting to/from home and Midway/O'Hare.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 7, 2013)

DR04 said:


> David McDonough said:
> 
> 
> > No checkpoints or searches...http://twitter.com/actingdork/status/352830848262885376/photo/1
> ...


There was one on the CTA Blue Line a few months back. I think it was going to work at O'Hare since the train was outbound.

I wished I had some preprinted document I could've given to it as I stepped off the train that detailed my exact feelings about TSA and why the agency's clerks should hate themselves every second of their lives, but alas, I was unprepared.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 7, 2013)

JoeBas said:


> Club Acela bypasses all the folderol.
> Because, you know, only Hoi Paloi are dangerous tewwowists.


Does this count for the Metro Lounges as well?

Any way to evade it at PVD, maybe by arrival time or some such? (leaving on an early 6:45-ish Acela train)


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## trainman74 (Jul 7, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> There was one on the CTA Blue Line a few months back. I think it was going to work at O'Hare since the train was outbound.
> I wished I had some preprinted document I could've given to it as I stepped off the train that detailed my exact feelings about TSA and why the agency's clerks should hate themselves every second of their lives, but alas, I was unprepared.


Seems like that kind of thing would be much more effective if communicated to Congress and/or the higher-ups at the Dept. of Homeland Security, yes?

Although I'm no fan of the agency, I do have some sympathy for individual TSA employees -- but I guess you don't, given that you're referring to them as "it."


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## amamba (Jul 7, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > Club Acela bypasses all the folderol.
> ...


I saw them swiping bags the day I boarded a regional around that time in the morning. I am firmly against the TSA and them getting involved in rail travel. I actually didn't find the bag swiping to be annoying - it is not a search, they no longer line people up. They just walk through the station and swipe bags and then test the strips in a machine.


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## jebr (Jul 7, 2013)

Easily could have been commuting. I see them fairly often on the Hiawatha Line METRO Blue Line going to MSP to work. Cheaper than parking at the airport, I'm sure.

I don't have any hatred towards the individual workers...most of them that I've had are friendly and pretty nice. I just think that TSA in general is overboard and we don't need that much security.


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## Ispolkom (Jul 7, 2013)

JoeBas said:


> CelticWhisper said:
> 
> 
> > JoeBas said:
> ...


You're lucky, in January I encountered a dozen TSAers (complete with those ridiculous thigh holsters on some of them) in Houston, waiting on the westbound Sunset Limited. They didn't interact with passengers, just stood in two circles. Is there some special TSA hokie-pokie?


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## leemell (Jul 7, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > CelticWhisper said:
> ...


TSA agents are not armed, you must have seen some law enforcement officer of another agency. Thigh holsters are typically used by SWAT and special enforcement teams like warrant service. They are used because in an emergency they are faster to get out of the holster, but are just as secure as hip holsters.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 7, 2013)

So what I'm gathering from this is:

-D.C. Union Station and anywhere else with ClubAcela: Hide out in CA lounge and fuhgettaboutit. Does this apply to PHL 30th St. too?

-Chicago Union Station: TSA doesn't actually do anything, just stands around breathing my air. Fuhgettaboutit. Maybe hide out in Metro Lounge, use Red Cap to board separately? (Any Red Cap who helps me stay away from TSA is getting a big, fat tip.)

-Providence: May have to deal with APD (doesn't really bother me since even the most corrupt sworn LEOs understand rights better than TSA), but can pretty much ignore them.

If true, this puts me at much greater ease than I've been over the past couple days.


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## Ispolkom (Jul 7, 2013)

leemell said:


> They are used because in an emergency they are faster to get out of the holster, but are just as secure as hip holsters.


Sure, they're like the old West quick-draw McGraw holsters. I'm sorry. LEOs manage to gun down people every day with regular waist holsters. How often has an Amtrak train required... Oh, that's right, there was that Dallas case in 2011 where LEOs gunned down some miscreant, as well as shooting one of their fellow officers and a bystander.

You know, maybe quick draw isn't the important parameter here.

I think that it's dress-up, just like LEOs wearing paramilitary outfits instead of proper uniforms. But hey, I'm old school. I'm mystified why soldiers who work in offices wear BDUs.


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## jebr (Jul 7, 2013)

CelticWhisper said:


> -Chicago Union Station: TSA doesn't actually do anything, just stands around breathing my air. Fuhgettaboutit. Maybe hide out in Metro Lounge, use Red Cap to board separately? (Any Red Cap who helps me stay away from TSA is getting a big, fat tip.)


I've never seen a TSA agent at CUS, and I've went through there a few separate times (and used it as a bit of a home base on Chicago day trips.)

If I remember another thread here correctly, the TSA only has the authority that Amtrak Police grants it at a given time...it has no "standing authority" and Amtrak Police holds any actual authority. Sometimes the TSA will work with Amtrak Police, but even then Amtrak Police has the final say.


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## SarahZ (Jul 8, 2013)

trainman74 said:


> CelticWhisper said:
> 
> 
> > There was one on the CTA Blue Line a few months back. I think it was going to work at O'Hare since the train was outbound.
> ...


I agree with Trainman. These are just people who needed a job and are just following employer orders. If you have an issue with the TSA, take it up with the TSA or government officials, not the person minding their own business on their way to work. "It" is pretty insulting.

This is like saying I'm a money-sucking scumbag because I work for an insurance company. I have to follow certain policies, no matter how much I disagree with them, or I'll lose my job. Do I like it? No. Do I need a paycheck? Yes. However, because of people who have an attitude similar to yours, I usually don't tell people what I do because they make an instant judgment and start chewing my ear off at parties or in public, assuming I'm an awful person who loves to screw people over.

A uniform is just a uniform. It does not describe the person wearing it.


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## CelticWhisper (Jul 8, 2013)

Dropped my letters in the mail today, will see what Amtrak customer relations and APD/Chief Hanson have to say.

Also mailed a quickie thank-you letter to Scott Garrett for the Freedom of Travel Act. Don't expect to hear back since I'm not in NJ, but who knows, he might surprise me.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 8, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > They are used because in an emergency they are faster to get out of the holster, but are just as secure as hip holsters.
> ...


True this!  Gunslingers went out in the 1880s but SOME LEO types think they look Cool and "Bad" and they think they're the Marshall in Dodge City or a Gunfighter in a Saloon! The BDUs thing also puzzles me, why are they worn when Service Members are Traveling in the US? When I was in the Service you didnt leave the Base unless you were in a Class A Uniform!! Fatigues, BDUs, Utilities, whatever the Name were for Work, Training and Combat!


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## leemell (Jul 8, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > They are used because in an emergency they are faster to get out of the holster, but are just as secure as hip holsters.
> ...



Traditional police uniforms are more ceremonial. They must be dry cleaned and pressed and they are very expensive, most LEOs get an allowance anything over they must pay out of their pocket. The leather duty belt is shiny. The name tag, badges and emblems must be polished.

When part of a special unit, sometimes called; SWAT, ERT, ESU, and warrant service etc., there is a high likelihood of having to crawl through windows, ladders, rooftops, etc., as is expected of officers on SWAT call outs, serving search warrants, etc. BDU style uniforms serve the purpose much better than the old traditional police uniform. Some SWAT teams have two uniforms, traditional black and another color (i.e. OD green, camp, etc.). They're there to protect you and your family. Law enforcement serves an entirely separate purpose than the military. There is an equal need for both. I don't think one is trying to mimic the other.. All of these activities would damage or destroy the traditional uniform. The BDU style uniform can be machined washed and is much cheaper than the traditional uniform. It also has a more relaxed fit for the physical activities described above. As a cost saving, instead a police department designing their own custom colors, patterns and designs, its cheaper to just purchase military surplus.

Just as a note, every large department that I know has several uniforms for specialized units, e.g. weapons training in a close by department uses a bright yellow shirt over OD pants and a black baseball cap. That is so they came be seen and easily identified on the ranges. Also when wearing Class III body armor, you cannot wear a hip holster, so some sort of drop holster is required.

Requisite train subject, Amtrak PD has at least four different uniforms.


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## Aaron (Jul 24, 2013)

I was at the station in Tucson this evening waiting for the departure of #1 when I saw a cluster of big law enforcement type guys standing around talking. 4 of them had uniforms identifying them as Department of Homeland Security police, and another one had a uniform identifying him as a TSA Inspector. I didn't ask what they were doing there, since I was already acting suspiciously (wandering around a train station) and I was outfitted with a terrorism enabling instrument (a camera). I don't want to go to Gitmo.


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## NW cannonball (Jul 24, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > leemell said:
> ...


Lately, the Armed forces people I see on the train, plane, bus -- don't have to and don't wear the BDU thing unless they have to. The NAVY never did sign on to the "wear your uniform in public BDU" thing -- but the NAVY never did sign on to that ill-informed PR thing. They hated their "blueberries" or "aquiflage" thing anyway. "The sharks won't bite me, because they can't see me in my government-issue flammable high-tech uniform"

Right - the rule was - not off base in working uniform -- small exceptions like picking up kids from daycare or filling the gas tank.

All the military people I know don't want the uniform off-base.

All the uniform loving people I've had the misfortune to meet want a uniform to be honcho-gonzzo-important.

The competent military people I've ever met just know what they know and do what they do. They do not want to, and refuse to, do "security theater" . Secure -- whatever-- sure.

Plausible threat -- gotcha -- .

End rant

Oh, and relevant - when I run into a serving warrior at the train station -- likely we both help the TSA any way we can -- because we all feel sorry for those who have pointless jobs much less demanding than an Amtrak SCA


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