# ACS-64 Heads Up



## Acela150

According to a post on Trainorders, the 3 ACS-64 units will move east on the CZ Wednesday, and south from Sacramento to Oakland today (Tuesday). It was also mentioned on TO that the three units will be on their way to Pueblo and that one unit will be sent to Wilmington via the SWC and CL to DC, and a work train will haul it north to the shops.

I am not sure if this is true. I'm just saying what I've read.

Good Luck!

Steve


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## Ryan

Nice! Get the cameras ready, folks!


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## X

600 left Sacramento and arrived in Oakland this afternoon sandwiched between two P42s and all wrapped up in blue, it's going out as the third unit on #6 tomorrow morning.


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## Acela150

Thank you. I'm sure someone will get photos.


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## X

You're welcome.

The move got delayed, looks like Friday now, maybe.


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## Ryan

Thanks again! This is the unit coming to Wilmington, right?

Leaving there Friday puts it in Chicago Sunday, meaning it'll arrive in WAS either Monday (good, since I'm off) or Tuesday (less good)?


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## X

It's going to be cut off in Denver to be delivered to the Transportation Technology Center for testing, so I hear.


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## X

Also, the blue wrap was removed today.


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## Ryan

X said:


> It's going to be cut off in Denver to be delivered to the Transportation Technology Center for testing, so I hear.


BOOO!!! I want one out here!  


X said:


> Also, the blue wrap was removed today.


Yay!!! At least someone will be able to get some decent pictures, I hope.
Thanks for all the information you provide (in this thread and the others), it's much appreciated.


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## NE933

Ryan: I'd get you one for Christmas, but my funds are tied up in four of the original Metroliner cars that I'm planning to run. The ones with the roof humps and ultra large 'Amtrak' on the front; now there's a paint scheme with balls.



And yes, please let me join in saying thanks, to all the AU members who post info like this, and those who make for lively, non-attacking discussions!


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## Acela150

So one of my Railfan Friends from the area is in Denver for the ERA convention. Keep in mind that this guy has some extreme good luck. To the point where one day I'm sure he'll win the PowerBall or Mega Millions. So with that being said, here is 600 being transported to TTCI. For those loathing the logos on the side you'll be pleased by these photos.

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3491709

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3491710

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3491712

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3491713

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3491714

I'm working on finding more info/photos. He did mention in an e-mail that it was sent to TTCI.


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## Acela150

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=182028

The first five photos are ones other then photos that I previously posted. (If that makes sense)

Ryan you'll be please to see the Blue Wrapping in some of them. :lol:


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## Fan Railer

New page and document from Siemens on its USA website:
http://w3.usa.siemens.com/mobility/us/en/rail-solutions/locomotives/Pages/amtrak-cities-sprinter.aspx - Includes a delivery tracking feature that allows train buffs to plan accordingly and catch the locomotives moving across the country.
It looks like 602 is going to be heading out towards the East Coast over the next few days.


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## Acela150

Monday is "The Day'!


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## Ryan

Stupid work. I doubt that it comes up the corridor before dark. Maybe I'll hang out over at the train station all evening and hope to get lucky.


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## Acela150

If 30 is OT then that's about a Noon arrival. I would say a special move after dark. Most likely after midnight.


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## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> Stupid work. I doubt that it comes up the corridor before dark. Maybe I'll hang out over at the train station all evening and* hope to get lucky*.


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## gmushial

X said:


> 600 left Sacramento and arrived in Oakland this afternoon sandwiched between two P42s and all wrapped up in blue, it's going out as the third unit on #6 tomorrow morning.


When an ACS-64 is sandwiched as such, can it be an active loco, ie, it's an electric loco which nominally gets its power form overhead, but can it be connected to the P42s to get it's power, ie, what the P42s generate for their motor needs is compatible with what the ACS-64 needs for it's, or is it simply a 200 ton deadweight btwn them?

The regen braking I assume is only viable for electrified lines, ie, if one doesn't have a overhead line to dump the power back into then there is no point to do regen braking, right?


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## Ryan

gmushial said:


> or is it simply a 200 ton deadweight btwn them?


This.

There are no provisions for transferring traction power to/from either the P42 or ACS-64 (with the exception of the pantograph on the ACS-64), nor is there really any reason to do so (all of the power generated by the P42's prime mover can be put to work using the traction motors on that unit.


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## Fan Railer

gmushial said:


> X said:
> 
> 
> 
> 600 left Sacramento and arrived in Oakland this afternoon sandwiched between two P42s and all wrapped up in blue, it's going out as the third unit on #6 tomorrow morning.
> 
> 
> 
> When an ACS-64 is sandwiched as such, can it be an active loco, ie, it's an electric loco which nominally gets its power form overhead, but can it be connected to the P42s to get it's power, ie, what the P42s generate for their motor needs is compatible with what the ACS-64 needs for it's, or is it simply a 200 ton deadweight btwn them?
> 
> The regen braking I assume is only viable for electrified lines, ie, if one doesn't have a overhead line to dump the power back into then there is no point to do regen braking, right?
Click to expand...

Theoretically, it is possible to reroute the regen to HEP, but that requires too much setup and may be a liability along the way. Also, since the P42s don't have that capability to reroute dynamics to HEP, you may run into an overload issue. In short, why change / fix what isn't broken?


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## gmushial

Ryan said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> or is it simply a 200 ton deadweight btwn them?
> 
> 
> 
> This.
> 
> There are no provisions for transferring traction power to/from either the P42 or ACS-64 (with the exception of the pantograph on the ACS-64), nor is there really any reason to do so (all of the power generated by the P42's prime mover can be put to work using the traction motors on that unit.
Click to expand...

Always very knowledgeable replies - thank you.

What I was thinking is that the P42s are capable of generating enough power to drive the motors at run-8 (appropriate term??), but suspect that running along most of the time are not using anywhere near that much, that the P42(s) could gen the electricity, and then share the drive across more weight (thinking that fewer drive wheels working harder cause more wear on the rails than more driving less so), ie, the power required to propel a train at a certain velocity is more or less independent of the number of motors doing such (plus or minus).

Related: I assume the positioning btwn the P42s is a question of load dynamics, ie, don't want it at the far end of the train in that such a load would always be trying to pull the intervening cars off the rails in sharp corners, likewise, in braking would be trying to overrun the rest of the train. Correct (plus/minus)?


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## gmushial

Fan Railer said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> X said:
> 
> 
> 
> 600 left Sacramento and arrived in Oakland this afternoon sandwiched between two P42s and all wrapped up in blue, it's going out as the third unit on #6 tomorrow morning.
> 
> 
> 
> When an ACS-64 is sandwiched as such, can it be an active loco, ie, it's an electric loco which nominally gets its power form overhead, but can it be connected to the P42s to get it's power, ie, what the P42s generate for their motor needs is compatible with what the ACS-64 needs for it's, or is it simply a 200 ton deadweight btwn them?
> 
> The regen braking I assume is only viable for electrified lines, ie, if one doesn't have a overhead line to dump the power back into then there is no point to do regen braking, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Theoretically, it is possible to reroute the regen to HEP, but that requires too much setup and may be a liability along the way. Also, since the P42s don't have that capability to reroute dynamics to HEP, you may run into an overload issue. In short, why change / fix what isn't broken?
Click to expand...

Being from New England, very much respect the "if it ain't broke you can't fix it" point of view  HEP? And this would be in the context of no overhead power?

Related: yesteryear - long ago - there was one engine, a tender, and the rest of the train. Over time reality has evolved to multiple engines. The interconnecting of them, has it evolved overtime likewise, or is it lagging - per your comment of "too much setup"? For newer engines like the ACS-64, has the controlling of multiple engines from a single location (maybe even a non-engine) location been thought out and simplified, as in, this is today's reality, let's make it easy to implement such?

many thanks for the reply - greg


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## PerRock

I thought the positioning was FRA regulations, as the engine hasn't been certified yet it has to have a certified car on both ends of it. And it makes more sense to stick an engine in the middle of an existing rake of engines rather then at the rear & shipping out an additional car for protection.

The older Cascades don't meet FRA standards and run under a waiver that requires them to have an certified car on both ends.

peter


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## Ryan

gmushial said:


> Related: yesteryear - long ago - there was one engine, a tender, and the rest of the train. Over time reality has evolved to multiple engines. The interconnecting of them, has it evolved overtime likewise, or is it lagging - per your comment of "too much setup"? For newer engines like the ACS-64, has the controlling of multiple engines from a single location (maybe even a non-engine) location been thought out and simplified, as in, this is today's reality, let's make it easy to implement such?many thanks for the reply - greg


Train control (which is a completely different issue than passing traction power between cars) is a solved problem. All of Amtrak's road locomotives are set up to control other locomotives or be controlled by other locomotives or non-locomotive cars outfitted with a cab and controls.


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## gmushial

Peter - thanks for the reply. I'm still a noob at this... hadn't considered FRA regs... but yes, makes sense.


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## rickycourtney

Another heads up...

Siemens has posted the schedule for #602's trip across the nation this week:

California Zephyr – Train 6 (27)

6/27 – Departs Emeryville, CA

6/29 – Arrives Chicago, IL

Capitol Limited – Train 30 (30)

6/30 – Departs Chicago, IL

7/01 – Arrives Washington, D.C.

Special Route

7/02 – Departs Washington, D.C.

7/02 – Arrives Wilmington, DE

It also sounds like Amtrak will pick up #602 from the Siemens factory in Sacramento today around 3pm and then shuttle it to the Oakland yard.

#602 will be wearing a special (temporary) design that has line drawings of the skylines of DC, Philadelphia, NY and Boston.


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## afigg

rickycourtney said:


> #602 will be wearing a special (temporary) design that has line drawings of the skylines of DC, Philadelphia, NY and Boston.


Well, people will have to post photos and YouTube videos of #602 enroute to the NEC then. Pretty confident that people will do that.


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## NE933

afigg said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> #602 will be wearing a special (temporary) design that has line drawings of the skylines of DC, Philadelphia, NY and Boston.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, people will have to post photos and YouTube videos of #602 enroute to the NEC then. Pretty confident that people will do that.
Click to expand...

And I will sit in front of my computer, my eyeballs stuck to the screen, and forego food and water, until that #602 shows up on YouTube!!! Arrrrghh!!! There's already a puddle of saliva on the floor!!!!!!

;-)


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## Acela150

rickycourtney said:


> Another heads up...Siemens has posted the schedule for #602's trip across the nation this week:
> 
> California Zephyr – Train 6 (27)
> 
> 6/27 – Departs Emeryville, CA
> 
> 6/29 – Arrives Chicago, IL
> 
> Capitol Limited – Train 30 (30)
> 
> 6/30 – Departs Chicago, IL
> 
> 7/01 – Arrives Washington, D.C.
> 
> Special Route
> 
> 7/02 – Departs Washington, D.C.
> 
> 7/02 – Arrives Wilmington, DE
> 
> It also sounds like Amtrak will pick up #602 from the Siemens factory in Sacramento today around 3pm and then shuttle it to the Oakland yard.
> 
> #602 will be wearing a special (temporary) design that has line drawings of the skylines of DC, Philadelphia, NY and Boston.


If it truly is a Temporary Paint job, and I like it, when it gets repainted I'll be bummed!


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## AlanB

PerRock said:


> I thought the positioning was FRA regulations, as the engine hasn't been certified yet it has to have a certified car on both ends of it. And it makes more sense to stick an engine in the middle of an existing rake of engines rather then at the rear & shipping out an additional car for protection.
> The older Cascades don't meet FRA standards and run under a waiver that requires them to have an certified car on both ends.
> 
> peter


I'm not so sure about that, although I could well be wrong.

However, since the engine isn't certified it cannot be used as a cab car should the need arise to run the engines around the cars and go in the other direction. By putting a P42 on each end you solve that issue.

That need doesn't arrive often, but still one doesn't want to find out that you need to make such a move when you don't have a certified cabcar/engine at the end of the engine group.

The Talgo issue is about crash buffer strength, the older Talgos don't meet the current standards. Adding that extra car gives the trains enough buffer strength to still operate under the waiver granted.


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## AlanB

gmushial said:


> HEP? And this would be in the context of no overhead power?


HEP = Head End Power, sometimes called hotel power. This is the power that the engine supplies to keep the lights on in the cars, AC, heat, etc.


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## Ryan

Amtrak just posted a picture of 602 ready to begin her journey:


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## Bob Dylan

Great pic Ryan! Maybe you should be working for Trains as a Editor/Writer/Photographer! Career Change!


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## Ryan

I wish!

To be clear, the picture isn't mine.


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## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> I wish!
> To be clear, the picture isn't mine.


I got that but I know you take Great Pics, can Write and are Rail and Computer Literate! Maybe when Fred Frailey retires you could Snag his Spot, hes getting Long in the tooth, when I talked with him on the Candian in Feb. he seemed ready for the Retirement Home! :giggle:


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## afigg

Ryan said:


> Amtrak just posted a picture of 602 ready to begin her journey:


The picture is available on the Amtrak's All Aboard blog site for those who want to check it for updates. Amtrak is making a noticeable fuss over the movement of #602 from CA to Wilmington. Wonder if there will be a press event at WAS next week before it is moved to the shops in Delaware.

The city skyline artwork is elaborate enough that I expect it will remain on #602 after it enters revenue service. #603 and beyond will likely get more bland paint jobs.


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## Acela150

Very Interesting paint job. I'd have to see it in person to make a choice of "Like" or "Dislike".


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## Fan Railer




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## Acela150

Here is the unit in Martinez.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3533842


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## gmushial

Do electric locos have less traction, ie, only able to start a shorter length consist, a lighter consist? The thought being: a diesel/electric loco has a large/heavy engine plus the weight of the fuel to feed it, a large heavy generator and the traction motors + the mass to support such; an electric only has the traction motors... and I assume (I know, dangerous), that the ability of a engine to get a consist moving is a function of both its hp + its ability to get that hp to the rails (traction)... or is this a moot point in that 602 et al will only be motivating lighter commuter trains?


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## gmushial

ACS-64 question: given that such "only" have the traction motors inside (unlike diesel/electric), is there enough room/ a path for an engineer to move from the operating position at one end to the one at the other end without having to go outside like one has to on a D/E loco? Not an important question - but curious.


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## Fan Railer

gmushial said:


> Do electric locos have less traction, ie, only able to start a shorter length consist, a lighter consist? The thought being: a diesel/electric loco has a large/heavy engine plus the weight of the fuel to feed it, a large heavy generator and the traction motors + the mass to support such; an electric only has the traction motors... and I assume (I know, dangerous), that the ability of a engine to get a consist moving is a function of both its hp + its ability to get that hp to the rails (traction)... or is this a moot point in that 602 et al will only be motivating lighter commuter trains?


Your general concept is true, and you also kind of answer your own question as well. Electrics do tend to have less adhesive weight than diesels, but also deliver more consistent tractive power. 72,000 lb of starting tractive effort is enough to start most passenger trains, since they only weigh in at around 420 metric tons (8 car amfleet consist with passengers) to around 940 metric tons (the advertised max consist of 18 amfleets [with passengers] for this locomotive). If you go on several European locomotive manufacturers' websites such as this one: http://www.newaggliwice.pl/en/locomotives-3/griffin-2.html you will see data on similar locomotives showing rated speed with consist weights well over the numbers above.

Also electrics are more efficient than diesel locomotives. Diesels only have about an 85% maximum transmission of prime mover power at the alternator to wheel horsepower. Take Amtrak's P42DC as an example. The GE 7FDL-16 is rated at 4,200 hp, but even without HEP loads, you are only going to get about 3,850 or so of that HP to the traction motors. Also due to the lower horsepower, continuous tractive effort is achieved at a much lower speed (38 mph). The ACS-64 on the other hand, is rated for around 8,500 hp 10-min maximum output <-- I'm guessing about the 10 min limit, but since Siemens advertises the locomotives to have a continuous value of 6,700 hp, I'm going to take this venture. If the engineer maxes out the throttle and keeps it there, until the 10 minute mark, all 8,500 hp will make it from the transformer to the wheels. In addition, due to the higher horsepower, continuous tractive effort is rated for a higher speed (~55 mph). If you need a visual representation for the difference electrics and diesels in continuous effort, take a look at the TE graph for the NJT Dual Mode ALP-45DP:





NOTE: Starting TE for both locomotives represented in the graph is 316 kilonewtons (71,000 lb)

As you can see, when in electric mode with 5,360 hp at the wheels, continuous tractive effort is maintained to around 54 km/h (33.5 mph). When in diesel mode with around 3000 hp at the wheels, CONT TE is maintained only to around 28 km/h (17.4 mph). The ALP-46A is also shown here in comparison, with its 7,500 hp at wheels holding continuous TE to around 85 km/h (53 mph). And keep in mind, a single ALP-45DP can handle 8 Bombardier Multilevels and keep schedule, in diesel mode, while the ALP-46A regularly lugs around 10 car consists of MLVs on the NEC for NJT, and those cars weigh a couple tons more than an Amfleet car.



gmushial said:


> ACS-64 question: given that such "only" have the traction motors inside (unlike diesel/electric), is there enough room/ a path for an engineer to move from the operating position at one end to the one at the other end without having to go outside like one has to on a D/E loco? Not an important question - but curious.


Yes. Most electric locomotive designs have a walk through passageway connecting the cabs. This passage is not so much for the engineers to use as passage, but more for maintenance of the electrical equipment.


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## AlanB

gmushial said:


> ACS-64 question: given that such "only" have the traction motors inside (unlike diesel/electric), is there enough room/ a path for an engineer to move from the operating position at one end to the one at the other end without having to go outside like one has to on a D/E loco? Not an important question - but curious.


The traction motors are not inside the body of the engine, any engine. The traction motors sit beneath the engine's shell on the truck so that they can connect to the gear on the axle to drive the train. What does sit inside are rather large transformers that convert the overhead power into something usable by the traction motors. Since those transformer cores are largely iron, they have considerable weight. So much so that Amtrak's electric motors are only about 50,000 lbs lighter than it's Diesel engines are.

And on all engines, electric or diesel, there is a hallway that the engineer can walk down to get from the cab to the other end of the engine.


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## PRR 60

AlanB said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 question: given that such "only" have the traction motors inside (unlike diesel/electric), is there enough room/ a path for an engineer to move from the operating position at one end to the one at the other end without having to go outside like one has to on a D/E loco? Not an important question - but curious.
> 
> 
> 
> The traction motors are not inside the body of the engine, any engine. The traction motors sit beneath the engine's shell on the truck so that they can connect to the gear on the axle to drive the train. What does sit inside are rather large transformers that convert the overhead power into something usable by the traction motors. Since those transformer cores are largely iron, they have considerable weight. So much so that Amtrak's electric motors are only about 50,000 lbs lighter than it's Diesel engines are.
> 
> And on all engines, electric or diesel, there is a hallway that the engineer can walk down to get from the cab to the other end of the engine.
Click to expand...

Not only do they use a transformer to lower the AC catenary voltage, they then use a rectifier to convert the that lower voltage AC to DC, and then an inverter to convert the DC back to AC. An electric locomotive is like a power substation on wheels.


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## Ryan

As an example, here's a set of drive wheels for an AEM-7:





Philly_Train_Trip_13 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

You can see where the traction motor mounts up.


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## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> As an example, here's a set of drive wheels for an AEM-7:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly_Train_Trip_13 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr
> 
> You can see where the traction motor mounts up.


I see some familiar faces and backs of heads. :giggle:


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## NE933

I'm guessing the other wheels to the left are Amfleets?


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## JeffW

PRR 60 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 question: given that such "only" have the traction motors inside (unlike diesel/electric), is there enough room/ a path for an engineer to move from the operating position at one end to the one at the other end without having to go outside like one has to on a D/E loco? Not an important question - but curious.
> 
> 
> 
> The traction motors are not inside the body of the engine, any engine. The traction motors sit beneath the engine's shell on the truck so that they can connect to the gear on the axle to drive the train. What does sit inside are rather large transformers that convert the overhead power into something usable by the traction motors. Since those transformer cores are largely iron, they have considerable weight. So much so that Amtrak's electric motors are only about 50,000 lbs lighter than it's Diesel engines are.
> 
> And on all engines, electric or diesel, there is a hallway that the engineer can walk down to get from the cab to the other end of the engine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not only do they use a transformer to lower the AC catenary voltage, they then use a rectifier to convert the that lower voltage AC to DC, and then an inverter to convert the DC back to AC. An electric locomotive is like a power substation on wheels.
Click to expand...

What is the purpose of transforming the AC to DC and back again?


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## PRR 60

JeffW said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 question: given that such "only" have the traction motors inside (unlike diesel/electric), is there enough room/ a path for an engineer to move from the operating position at one end to the one at the other end without having to go outside like one has to on a D/E loco? Not an important question - but curious.
> 
> 
> 
> The traction motors are not inside the body of the engine, any engine. The traction motors sit beneath the engine's shell on the truck so that they can connect to the gear on the axle to drive the train. What does sit inside are rather large transformers that convert the overhead power into something usable by the traction motors. Since those transformer cores are largely iron, they have considerable weight. So much so that Amtrak's electric motors are only about 50,000 lbs lighter than it's Diesel engines are.
> 
> And on all engines, electric or diesel, there is a hallway that the engineer can walk down to get from the cab to the other end of the engine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not only do they use a transformer to lower the AC catenary voltage, they then use a rectifier to convert the that lower voltage AC to DC, and then an inverter to convert the DC back to AC. An electric locomotive is like a power substation on wheels.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is the purpose of transforming the AC to DC and back again?
Click to expand...

_Warning: structural engineer playing electrical engineer._

Modern AC traction uses three-phase induction motors. Catenary power is single phase. The single phase AC catenary power (60hz or 25hz) is converted to DC, then is inverted back to three phase AC to power the motors.


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## Fan Railer

NE933 said:


> I'm guessing the other wheels to the left are Amfleets?


I wanna say no; Amfleet wheels have inboard mounted disk brakes.


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## JeffW

PRR 60 said:


> _Warning: structural engineer playing electrical engineer._
> Modern AC traction uses three-phase induction motors. Catenary power is single phase. The single phase AC catenary power (60hz or 25hz) is converted to DC, then is inverted back to three phase AC to power the motors.


Gotcha--this makes sense. No problem about cross-engineer experimentation. Some of my best friends are mechanical or chemical engineers who try to be structural or electrical engineers...


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## Fan Railer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmu6v61Ar2M


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## Ryan

Fan Railer said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing the other wheels to the left are Amfleets?
> 
> 
> 
> I wanna say no; Amfleet wheels have inboard mounted disk brakes.
Click to expand...

They do, I'm not sure if that's on all 4 axles or not. Here's an Amfleet set with more mystery wheels in the background:




Philly_Train_Trip_16 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr


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## ScottRu

Great stuff, folks. Thanks for posting.


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## AlanB

JeffW said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Warning: structural engineer playing electrical engineer._
> 
> Modern AC traction uses three-phase induction motors. Catenary power is single phase. The single phase AC catenary power (60hz or 25hz) is converted to DC, then is inverted back to three phase AC to power the motors.
> 
> 
> 
> Gotcha--this makes sense. No problem about cross-engineer experimentation. Some of my best friends are mechanical or chemical engineers who try to be structural or electrical engineers...
Click to expand...

Jeff,

To be fair, he's a structural engineer who worked for a major power company, in fact the one that supplies Amtrak most of its power south of NYP. So I've no doubt he learned a thing or two about power.


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## Agent

I caught 602 passing through Agency, Iowa at speed on the _California Zephyr_ today.

Here it is from up high:


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## Fan Railer

Coming through Maryland; looks like she's right on time. A pity the weather is crappy:


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## Ziv

I am glad Amtrak is getting new locomotives, especially given that they are rated up to 125 mph and, I believe, may be/possibly, upgraded to speeds up to 135 mph in the future, but they sure didn't build these things for their looks... The P42DC's are no beauties but they have a certain gravitas, even if they are only rated up to 110 mph, I think. I am an Amtrak tyro, so be gentle if my assumptions about the two locomotives speeds are wrong. ;-)


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## Nathanael

PRR 60 said:


> Modern AC traction uses three-phase induction motors. Catenary power is single phase. The single phase AC catenary power (60hz or 25hz) is converted to DC, then is inverted back to three phase AC to power the motors.


The AC used for induction motors is actually *variable frequency* -- in fact, varying the frequency is how the train is sped up and slowed down.

All the other AC electricity you see in the world is *fixed frequency* AC. There are various devices to convert one fixed frequency to another, but to generate variable-frequency AC the only practical method is to start with DC.


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## afigg

Ziv said:


> I am glad Amtrak is getting new locomotives, especially given that they are rated up to 125 mph and, I believe, may be/possibly, upgraded to speeds up to 135 mph in the future, but they sure didn't build these things for their looks... The P42DC's are no beauties but they have a certain gravitas, even if they are only rated up to 110 mph, I think. I am an Amtrak tyro, so be gentle if my assumptions about the two locomotives speeds are wrong. ;-)


The ACS-64s will be limited to 125 mph max speeds in operational service. That is the max speed of the Amfleet and future Viewliner cars. Any mention of 135 mph you see in specs for the ACS-64 is the maximum overspeed they are capable of and will be tested at for stability, but they won't run above a sustained 125 mph in revenue service.

Much of the reason for the attention paid to the ACS-64 is one) hey, new locomotives! and two) they are first new rolling stock equipment Amtrak has acquired in over 10 years, minus the AutoTrain autoracks and miscellaneous support equipment. Ten plus years is too long to go between equipment purchases to keep a fleet at an acceptable median age.


----------



## Ziv

afigg, thanks for the correct info regarding top speeds for the ACS-64. I had seen the 135 mph number tossed around and I thought, incorrectly, that it may end up being a top speed in the future. I am pretty happy just seeing new locomotives that could do British Rail InterCity speeds, i.e. 125 mph or 201 kph.

I would love to see Amtrak doing 220 mph but given the facts on the ground, maybe getting a substantial portion of the western LD routes up to 125 mph is as good as it gets for the next 10 years. Getting the average (for the entire trip) speed of many of the western routes up above 75 mph would be a huge achievement. Increase the average speed, then increase the amount of sleeper cars, then increase the amount of trips per day, and increase the speed again... Repeat if possible. It would be cool if it would happen, but it would probably require a long term, guaranteed revenue stream, which is hard to envision.



afigg said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad Amtrak is getting new locomotives, especially given that they are rated up to 125 mph and, I believe, may be/possibly, upgraded to speeds up to 135 mph in the future, but they sure didn't build these things for their looks... The P42DC's are no beauties but they have a certain gravitas, even if they are only rated up to 110 mph, I think. I am an Amtrak tyro, so be gentle if my assumptions about the two locomotives speeds are wrong. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> The ACS-64s will be limited to 125 mph max speeds in operational service. That is the max speed of the Amfleet and future Viewliner cars. Any mention of 135 mph you see in specs for the ACS-64 is the maximum overspeed they are capable of and will be tested at for stability, but they won't run above a sustained 125 mph in revenue service.
> 
> Much of the reason for the attention paid to the ACS-64 is one) hey, new locomotives! and two) they are first new rolling stock equipment Amtrak has acquired in over 10 years, minus the AutoTrain autoracks and miscellaneous support equipment. Ten plus years is too long to go between equipment purchases to keep a fleet at an acceptable median age.
Click to expand...


----------



## gmushial

Ziv said:


> afigg, thanks for the correct info regarding top speeds for the ACS-64. I had seen the 135 mph number tossed around and I thought, incorrectly, that it may end up being a top speed in the future. I am pretty happy just seeing new locomotives that could do British Rail InterCity speeds, i.e. 125 mph or 201 kph.
> 
> I would love to see Amtrak doing 220 mph but given the facts on the ground, maybe getting a substantial portion of the western LD routes up to 125 mph is as good as it gets for the next 10 years. Getting the average (for the entire trip) speed of many of the western routes up above 75 mph would be a huge achievement. Increase the average speed, then increase the amount of sleeper cars, then increase the amount of trips per day, and increase the speed again... Repeat if possible. It would be cool if it would happen, but it would probably require a long term, guaranteed revenue stream, which is hard to envision.
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad Amtrak is getting new locomotives, especially given that they are rated up to 125 mph and, I believe, may be/possibly, upgraded to speeds up to 135 mph in the future, but they sure didn't build these things for their looks... The P42DC's are no beauties but they have a certain gravitas, even if they are only rated up to 110 mph, I think. I am an Amtrak tyro, so be gentle if my assumptions about the two locomotives speeds are wrong. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> The ACS-64s will be limited to 125 mph max speeds in operational service. That is the max speed of the Amfleet and future Viewliner cars. Any mention of 135 mph you see in specs for the ACS-64 is the maximum overspeed they are capable of and will be tested at for stability, but they won't run above a sustained 125 mph in revenue service.
> 
> Much of the reason for the attention paid to the ACS-64 is one) hey, new locomotives! and two) they are first new rolling stock equipment Amtrak has acquired in over 10 years, minus the AutoTrain autoracks and miscellaneous support equipment. Ten plus years is too long to go between equipment purchases to keep a fleet at an acceptable median age.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Agree with all your increases in performance... but maybe the most important one is missing: increase ridership - without passengers, there will be lots of more empty than full trains, racking up significant losses, and that'll spell the end of passenger travel. Need to sell America/Americans on the notion that train travel isn't quaint and ah so very nineteenth-centuryish. Suspect after a first ride that'll be easier, but getting them onto that first ride is where the rub lies... maybe a national ride a train day (with very cheap tickets)


----------



## Ryan

Not really a problem on the corridor, the riders are there, but the capacity is not.


----------



## NE933

afigg on July 1, 2013 2:25PM, said:

"Ten plus years is too long to go between equipment purchases to keep a fleet at an acceptable median age."

Then at this rate, in 2023 I guess we'll be riding goats and camels.


----------



## gmushial

Ryan said:


> Not really a problem on the corridor, the riders are there, but the capacity is not.


That's heartening to hear. What about outside the NEC?


----------



## Fan Railer

gmushial said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really a problem on the corridor, the riders are there, but the capacity is not.
> 
> 
> 
> That's heartening to hear. What about outside the NEC?
Click to expand...

Amtrak's most profitable routes are the regional intercity commuter routes, ie, the NEC, and California's Surfliner, Cap Corridor, and San Joaquin (with the last three being operated by Caltrans. It's the cross country routes that are more controversial in terms of sustainability and ridership demand. However, it is a slow and steady shift, as airline prices continue to skyrocket. Give it a few more decades and perhaps we'll see a more expansive Amtrak system.


----------



## jis

Sorry, none of the California Corridors are anywhere near what can be remotely characterized as profitable, using the normal meaning of the word, even if only above rail costs are considered.

Frankly airline fares will have to rise at warp speed for real long distance travel to shift appreciably to rail from air. Before that net amount of LD travel will actually go down reflecting the cost of travel rather than shift to rail for LD. Predominant group of leisure travelers by air do so because they want to get to their destination quickly so that they can partake in whatever they want to do at the destination, rather than spend time getting there and back. How many people would rather spend their 3 days of vacation riding a train instead of being with Grandma or on the beach or amusement park, the final destination?

On the matter of converting significant portions of the LD system to 125mph or getting the average speed of LD trains upto 75mph or above, in the next 10 years.... the chances of that happening are between 0% and 0.0001% at best, unfortunately.


----------



## gmushial

jis said:


> Sorry, none of the California Corridors are anywhere near what can be remotely characterized as profitable, using the normal meaning of the word, even if only above rail costs are considered.
> Frankly airline fares will have to rise at warp speed for real long distance travel to shift appreciably to rail from air. Before that net amount of LD travel will actually go down reflecting the cost of travel rather than shift to rail for LD. Predominant group of leisure travelers by air do so because they want to get to their destination quickly so that they can partake in whatever they want to do at the destination, rather than spend time getting there and back. How many people would rather spend their 3 days of vacation riding a train instead of being with Grandma or on the beach or amusement park, the final destination?
> 
> On the matter of converting significant portions of the LD system to 125mph or getting the average speed of LD trains upto 75mph or above, in the next 10 years.... the chances of that happening are between 0% and 0.0001% at best, unfortunately.


In the scheme of things, I wonder how much price has to do with/would have to do with speed of migration from flying cattle cars to trains... maybe projecting on my part, but with let's say 2m air miles under the belt (read: suffered), the notion of taking the time, sitting back, spending time with pleasant people and ascribing to the notion that a trip is as much about the journey/process, as the destination... this last CZ trip was intentionally just that: yes I could have gotten from SAC to LNK, and within a hundred to couple hundred dollars of the train and 24 hrs more quickly... but with a whole lot less pleasure. I liked idea, intended to partake of the notion of: just unplugging and spending the extra 24 hrs watching the scenery roll by at human speeds, having room to stretch out (at 6'1" flying cattle cars (FCC) are less than friendly) and exit rush rush mode for just a bit. ... so, yes there is a price difference btwn FCCs and trains, and it might be in that I get something back from the train experience; whereas with the FCC: yes I do get from a to b, but at best that's all I can say (though all too often my luggage goes from a to c). I wonder when others will come to appreciate such? Or look at trains as a positive alternative. Maybe that's part of the path to increased ridership??


----------



## jis

I was not talking of those few of us who enjoy riding trains. In my experience talking to a lot of people, even some who enjoy riding trains occasionally, very few view the journey as an experience thing too much. They'd rather get it over with ASAP and be where they finally want to be and get on with whatever they plan to do at the destination, than spend days getting there. I don;t believe that fact of life is likely to change for a vast majority of folks. Besides all the carping about how unpleasant air travel is, is not yet reflected in ridership trends. All the leveling off of and marginal reduction in ridership has been significantly due to airlines consciously reducing inventory to raise airfares to a sustainable level, and that has not been reflected in a one for one increase in train ridership. Even now trains do have considerable availability, though not in sleepers, even on the day of travel or within a few days of travel. That does not indicate an overwhelming shift to anything, either train, or for that matter even cars.

My last trip to South Bend and back was intentionally by train for reasons you mention, but it was one I could barely afford in terms of time off from work. I often do weekends in Florida, which is impossible to do using ground transport of any sort without taking days off.


----------



## gmushial

jis - I have to agree with your observations... but from what I hear all too often from those that rush to their destinations and back, all too often, the destinations don't prove to be all that relaxing/pleasureable/fail to live up to expectations... wonder if more didn't learn that the process/journey could be as pleasurable or more so than the destination, that more wouldn't incorporate more pleasurable modes of transportation, albeit slower ones into their mindset.


----------



## Acela150

Per a Photo on Twitter, 602 is at the Wilmington Shops. Most likely as of last night.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Yep, it's at Wilmington Shops

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130703/NEWS1501/307030036/Amtrak-offers-peek-new-train-engine-undergoes-tests


----------



## Ryan

And they used 42 to bring it up! Curse you Amtrak for making that move at night!!!


----------



## NE933

Ryan said:


> And they used 42 to bring it up! Curse you Amtrak for making that move at night!!!


Please be careful with that incantation, Amtrak has enough curses hovering over it as it is.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> And they used 42 to bring it up! Curse you Amtrak for making that move at night!!!


42? From Pittsburgh? At night? :unsure: Perhaps you meant 66 - the devil to carry the curse along?


----------



## Ryan

P42 #42, the Veterans Unit.


----------



## jis

Ah! Engine, not train


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> And they used 42 to bring it up! Curse you Amtrak for making that move at night!!!


Yeah, 3:00 AM is a little (looooot) past my bedtime and before my awake time.


----------



## AlanB

AmtrakBlue said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> And they used 42 to bring it up! Curse you Amtrak for making that move at night!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, 3:00 AM is a little (looooot) past my bedtime and before my awake time.
Click to expand...

3:00 AM? :unsure: The overnight run of train #66 gets to Wilmington at 11:46 PM.  . That's well before 3:00 AM.


----------



## Ryan

Did it come up on 66, or as a special move?

I would think that they would just move it up whenever they wanted, and not have to worry about switching on a revenue train in the middle of the night.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

The clock on the annoucement board reads 3:0x AM

I'm with Ryan and that I think they just had 42 bring it up from WAS


----------



## AlanB

Ryan said:


> Did it come up on 66, or as a special move?I would think that they would just move it up whenever they wanted, and not have to worry about switching on a revenue train in the middle of the night.


Sorry, I read to fast. Someone mentioned 66, and I thought that was how it came up. I have no idea if indeed that's how it moved. Although if one didn't want to do a special movement, then 66 would indeed be the train to put it on, as there is so much slack time in that train's schedule.


----------



## Ryan

AmtrakBlue said:


> The clock on the annoucement board reads 3:0x AMI'm with Ryan and that I think they just had 42 bring it up from WAS


Good eyes, I missed that.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> The clock on the annoucement board reads 3:0x AM
> 
> I'm with Ryan and that I think they just had 42 bring it up from WAS
> 
> 
> 
> Good eyes, I missed that.
Click to expand...

Hey, the pics were taken at MY station, so I was wondering what time it was there.


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> The clock on the annoucement board reads 3:0x AM
> 
> I'm with Ryan and that I think they just had 42 bring it up from WAS
> 
> 
> 
> Good eyes, I missed that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, the pics were taken at MY station, so I was wondering what time it was there.
Click to expand...

I thought it was Joe's Station?? :blink: :giggle:


----------



## jis

It certainly is the _Joseph R. Biden Railroad Station_, though Amtrak does not mention that name.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> The clock on the annoucement board reads 3:0x AM
> 
> I'm with Ryan and that I think they just had 42 bring it up from WAS
> 
> 
> 
> Good eyes, I missed that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, the pics were taken at MY station, so I was wondering what time it was there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought it was Joe's Station?? :blink: :giggle:
Click to expand...

Nah, he moved out of state. :giggle:


----------



## Agent

I just received a message that another ACS-64, AMTK 603, is being moved to Oakland, California today. It is to be placed placed on #6 tomorrow if nothing goes wrong. Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: Trainorders now has a thread confirming 603 has started its journey. If it does get on the _California Zephyr_ tomorrow, that would put it in Denver on Sunday and Chicago on Monday. I'm really hoping I can see it on Monday, but I might have to somewhere else that day. In which case, I hoping there will be a delay and it won't get on #6 tomorrow.


----------



## jis

The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!


Jis, when I saw the video posted on Youtube of the Acceleration, I made a comment to my Dad that the ACS-64 units may give the AE sets a run for their money for Acceleration. One of the only places on the NEC where AE and NER's go from 0-100+ is outside of Back Bay and Route 128 in Massachusetts.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Is that what I heard screaming by outside? Or maybe that's why we're getting more dead skunk smells lately. :giggle:


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> Jis, when I saw the video posted on Youtube of the Acceleration, I made a comment to my Dad that the ACS-64 units may give the AE sets a run for their money for Acceleration. One of the only places on the NEC where AE and NER's go from 0-100+ is outside of Back Bay and Route 128 in Massachusetts.


Not to mention from Metropark going towards New York, and also starting from BWI in either direction, and New Carrollton towards New York (no Acela though since none stops at New Carrollton), and of course from Trenton towards New York too.


----------



## Acela150

I think the one thing I keep in mind with Metropark and Trenton is that the trains have to go through interlockings to get back to the inside track. BWI and New Carrollton there IIRC there aren't many interlocking around there. A few but not many. So they take off. At BWI trains go through at a decent clip as well.


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> Is that what I heard screaming by outside? Or maybe that's why we're getting more dead skunk smells lately. :giggle:


Sorry that was me.. My gas has been pretty bad lately.. :help: :giggle: :lol:


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!


I hope videos of the test runs on the NEC show up soon! There is a brand new

 leaving the Siemens plant in Sacramento to be sent eastward.
If the acceleration of the ACS-64 is that good, it would be nice to see some reductions in the Regional trip times once the ACS-64s replace all the current locomotives. However, I expect Amtrak will initially use the new locos with better acceleration and reliability (we hope) to improve on-time performance stats on the NEC. Then tweak the schedule times as track, station, and capacity improvement projects on the NEC are completed.


----------



## Acela150

That paint is so blah.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that what I heard screaming by outside? Or maybe that's why we're getting more dead skunk smells lately. :giggle:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry that was me.. My gas has been pretty bad lately.. :help: :giggle: :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I think the one thing I keep in mind with Metropark and Trenton is that the trains have to go through interlockings to get back to the inside track. BWI and New Carrollton there IIRC there aren't many interlocking around there. A few but not many. So they take off. At BWI trains go through at a decent clip as well.


One should also keep in mind the 30mph curve out of Back Bay towards Providence. The Metropark crossovers are moving frog 45 or 60mph and are close to the platform so should have minimal impact on acceleration. Trenton is also I think 45mph but not moving frog, but not sure, and it is right next to the platform. It is slated for upgrade as part of the NEC high speed project in NJ.

The real problem with those crossovers is not at the departure end of things but at the arrival end, because the outdated signaling system forces the train to slow down to approach medium through the entire previous block. This will eventually get remedied with full deployment of ACSES and re positioning of block boundaries relative to interlockings so that the advance home signals are at more reasonable distance.


----------



## amtrk

I don't know . The model is kind of ugly to me . But its the headlights that I cant get use to.


----------



## NE933

The stongest acceleration of any train I can remember was when an HHP8 powered Keystone revved up exiting the S-curve in Elizabeth. They were assigned obviously to light, easy, low risk trains during 2004, when diesel power took over from Philly to Harrisburg. The acceleration was so tremendous, like that of an airplane, my head pushed into the seat, and I remember getting a 'high' from this. We tore through Linden and Rahway stations at 125 in the three car Amfleet consist, I'll never forget it.

Hearing this about the ACS-64 is great news; not only will it feel good, but it has large practical value, that is, in minimizing the effects of stopping.


----------



## Fan Railer

603 through Martinez. Start watching at 3:00.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

603 looks nice sandwiched between the P42s. I wonder how many "unschooled" CZ passengers will think their train has three working engines...

Cool catch, Fan Railer.


----------



## Fan Railer

WhoozOn1st said:


> 603 looks nice sandwiched between the P42s. I wonder how many "unschooled" CZ passengers will think their train has three working engines...
> Cool catch, Fan Railer.


Just a heads, that's not my video. I'm based in the east coast by the NEC. I usually mention it when I repost stuff I find, but I'm not sure why it slipped me this time.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Fan Railer said:


> Just a heads, that's not my video.


Thanks, then, for passing it along.


----------



## Fan Railer

Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard word elsewhere that 602 is testing in Jersey tonight?


----------



## Acela150

Well I'm sure a video will surface. Their are some "hardcore" railfans out in those parts who will be up waiting for it to pass.


----------



## Agent

Here's a video of 602 from Thursday night.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!


 I am surprised why this is a surprise. Surely the specs were calculated precisely. How can a locmotive perform significantly better than anticipated? It would suggest that somebody messed up on their calculations, which is a bit worrying as they could equally mess up in the opposite direction.


----------



## cpamtfan

Although impressive axceleration WITHOUT passengers, I don't think we've seen a completely true to life test of one of these things.


----------



## Ryan

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised why this is a surprise. Surely the specs were calculated precisely. How can a locmotive perform significantly better than anticipated? It would suggest that somebody messed up on their calculations, which is a bit worrying as they could equally mess up in the opposite direction.
Click to expand...

the specs are the minimum. It's possible to build something that exceeds the specs. Nobody messed up on anything.


----------



## Fan Railer

Same source reports a similar opportunity to catch the locomotive tonight (8/16) running up to newark and turning back afterwords.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised why this is a surprise. Surely the specs were calculated precisely. How can a locmotive perform significantly better than anticipated? It would suggest that somebody messed up on their calculations, which is a bit worrying as they could equally mess up in the opposite direction.
Click to expand...

So exceeding specification is messing up? Interesting where we have descended! New aircraft routine exceed specifications. Exceeding specifications in general is a good thing, not a bad thing, and it does not indicate that it necessarily happened just by chance.


----------



## Ryan

Now that I'm at work, let me elaborate a little further - I (help) write performance specs for a Navy weapons system for a living.

You don't write a spec that says "The ACS-64 shall haul xxx,xxx lbs at a top speed of 125 MPH and an acceleration of yy m/s2" for this exact reason.

The spec would correctly be written "The ACS-64 shall haul xxx,xxx lbs at a top speed of at least 125 MPH and an acceleration of yy m/s2 or greater given that the following conditions are met: a) level track; b) environmental conditions as specified in section x.y.z; c) power inputs as specified in section a.b.c, d) etc, etc, etc".

Now obviously, after the plans were drawn up, and before construction started, it's highly likely that there was some performance modeling done to ensure that the design would meet the minimum specs. If the actual performance varies greatly than the predicted performance, that suggests that your performance model was pretty crappy and there was a risk that things wouldn't have turned out this rosy. But that's an issue for the M&S folks, not us requirements folks.


----------



## cirdan

Ryan said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised why this is a surprise. Surely the specs were calculated precisely. How can a locmotive perform significantly better than anticipated? It would suggest that somebody messed up on their calculations, which is a bit worrying as they could equally mess up in the opposite direction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the specs are the minimum. It's possible to build something that exceeds the specs. Nobody messed up on anything.
Click to expand...

 I've worked in engineering myself (although not directly with trains, although I did work in train testing for a while) and usually you take the specs and work backwards from that, so you look at the the load cycles and the drag and limiting factors and on the basis of that determine how powerful the various componnets need to be. You don't take a more powerful part just for fun because that's a cost factor and hence you don't suddenly see your equipemnt perform considerably better than expected. In my experience, whenever something performs differently than expected, be it better or worse, then somebody made a mistake in their calculations or was working from a false assumption or somebody ordered a wrong part. Well engineered stuff works pretty much exactly as the calculations predicted. Its not military enginering or aviation where you have lots of safety margin everywhere because you can't fully predict the use case. Electro-mechanics is a well understood discipline and simulations and tests correlate with a surprising level of accuracy. This is one reason why they've stopped building prototype locomotives as they used to in the days of steam trains. Take it from somebody who's been in the trenches of the development lab and done it many times.


----------



## jis

But we do not know what internal design specs Siemens used. We only know the spec in RFP. It is entirely possible that Siemens had a drive pack off the shelf that met and exceeded the RFP specs and they chose to simply use it instead of designing a new one that exactly meets the spec.


----------



## sitzplatz17

jis said:


> But we do not know what internal design specs Siemens used. We only know the spec in RFP. It is entirely possible that Siemens had a drive pack off the shelf that met and exceeded the RFP specs and they chose to simply use it instead of designing a new one that exactly meets the spec.


Exactly, we have to also consider that the design is based off of an existing locomotive design from Europe. Siemens wasn't designing a completely new locomotive, they were re-purposing a design to fit in to the RFP specifications. Naturally you'll have some parts you can just take off the shelf. When selecting those parts you'll always want to chose the one the exceeds specifications rather than the other way around.


----------



## Ryan

cirdan said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The single ACS64 has started test runs on the NEC. It is running south from Wilmington. It's acceleration performance with 8 Amfleets is turning out to be considerably superior to that of even Acelas. Reportedly from 0 to 125mph in 3/4 th mile!
> 
> 
> 
> I am surprised why this is a surprise. Surely the specs were calculated precisely. How can a locmotive perform significantly better than anticipated? It would suggest that somebody messed up on their calculations, which is a bit worrying as they could equally mess up in the opposite direction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the specs are the minimum. It's possible to build something that exceeds the specs. Nobody messed up on anything.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've worked in engineering myself (although not directly with trains, although I did work in train testing for a while) and usually you take the specs and work backwards from that, so you look at the the load cycles and the drag and limiting factors and on the basis of that determine how powerful the various componnets need to be. You don't take a more powerful part just for fun because that's a cost factor and hence you don't suddenly see your equipemnt perform considerably better than expected. In my experience, whenever something performs differently than expected, be it better or worse, then somebody made a mistake in their calculations or was working from a false assumption or somebody ordered a wrong part. Well engineered stuff works pretty much exactly as the calculations predicted. Its not military enginering or aviation where you have lots of safety margin everywhere because you can't fully predict the use case. Electro-mechanics is a well understood discipline and simulations and tests correlate with a surprising level of accuracy. This is one reason why they've stopped building prototype locomotives as they used to in the days of steam trains. Take it from somebody who's been in the trenches of the development lab and done it many times.
Click to expand...

See my later post. You're confusing requirements with performance models.


----------



## ayezee

Off topic slightly but if these are truly performing better than the specs that's a great think as long as they meet the specs relating to maintenance and safety. I would hate for these locos to be the HHP-8 part II. But if everything works out as planned and then some I think it gives Siemens a huge advantage in getting the contract for the Acela II whenever that is awarded given Amtrak's less than stellar relationship with Bombardier. Plus I personally would love to see Velaros running 200mph plus on the future NEC high speed right of way.....he a man can dream!


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> But we do not know what internal design specs Siemens used. We only know the spec in RFP. It is entirely possible that Siemens had a drive pack off the shelf that met and exceeded the RFP specs and they chose to simply use it instead of designing a new one that exactly meets the spec.


 Okay, in that case we may have been talking at cross purposes, as my understanding was that Siemens was surprised at the performance. If they knowingly over-engineered the locomotive for whatever raeson, that is something different entirely.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But we do not know what internal design specs Siemens used. We only know the spec in RFP. It is entirely possible that Siemens had a drive pack off the shelf that met and exceeded the RFP specs and they chose to simply use it instead of designing a new one that exactly meets the spec.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, in that case we may have been talking at cross purposes, as my understanding was that Siemens was surprised at the performance. If they knowingly over-engineered the locomotive for whatever raeson, that is something different entirely.
Click to expand...

Yep. I very much doubt that Siemens was surprised. Amtrak was pleasantly surprised. As an aside, it is also entirely possible that Siemens may indeed be consciously over performing in order to get into the pole position for the inevitable Acela II order too.


----------



## PerRock

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But we do not know what internal design specs Siemens used. We only know the spec in RFP. It is entirely possible that Siemens had a drive pack off the shelf that met and exceeded the RFP specs and they chose to simply use it instead of designing a new one that exactly meets the spec.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, in that case we may have been talking at cross purposes, as my understanding was that Siemens was surprised at the performance. If they knowingly over-engineered the locomotive for whatever raeson, that is something different entirely.
Click to expand...

Actually we do know a bit of that. The ACS is basically the Americanized version of their existing Eurosprinter & Vectron platforms.

peter


----------



## jis

True. But the Vectron platform can be scaled for many different performance requirements os speed, power and tractive effort. We don't know for sure what exact configuration of the Vectron Platform was used by Siemens in fulfilling this RFP.


----------



## PRR 60

Is the 0 to 125 in 3/4 mile a firm number from Amtrak or scuttlebutt? If true, that would be just shy of 3mph/sec, an acceleration that even modern transit cars struggle to meet.


----------



## Ryan

This was posted in another thread:



Fan Railer said:


> I also found two new videos apparently from someone who has access at Pueblo.


0-125 in 2:30 works out to a shade under 1 mph/s, but you can't tell if they were pushing it to the limit or not.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> Is the 0 to 125 in 3/4 mile a firm number from Amtrak or scuttlebutt? If true, that would be just shy of 3mph/sec, an acceleration that even modern transit cars struggle to meet.


That was the scuttlebutt, but you know how scuttlebutts go. I am trying to get some more reliable verification, but have not been able to get in touch with the reliable contacts due to more pressing issues on both sides.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

The horn in the first video sure doesn't sound like any K5LA (in good repair) I've ever heard, but in the second video - the cab ride - it sounds typical. Same locomotive, right? The difference is so dramatic that it hardly seems to be the result of changed perspective.


----------



## Acela150

I agree Whooz. It does sound different outside then in.


----------



## PerRock

It may be due to a noise cancellation system. Basically a speaker plays the inverse of the sound it's trying to cancel. It might be off a bit giving the horn a different sound inside.

Peter


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Acela150 said:


> I agree Whooz. It does sound different outside then in.


That's no surprise. But as I said, the difference is greater than might be expected just from the difference between inside and outside. Maybe that noise-cancelling thing is what makes it sound like the amplification of a diseased goat from the ground.

EDIT: It also sounds (from outside) like some lame-oh light rail buzzer, which is pretty much the same as an amplified diseased goat. Really, really bad sound. If any noise-cancelling gizmo is responsible, it oughta be removed for revenue service. As it is the new juice hog doesn't sound anything like a real (non-transit) train.


----------



## NE933

Word on the street of internet train talk is that the 602 in Wilmington has left and is headed for a rountrip to Newark, NJ. I'm getting this second hand, but if anyone is near and wants to see Amtrak's hope, pride and joy for the moment, start off now and please post your pics!

Edit/update: another poster announces that it just passed Hamilton, NJ.


----------



## Acela150

It's reported on TO that it left WIL about 8:30?? That's a bit too early for testing up to NWK..


----------



## Acela150

Reported on Railraod.net that 602 went through Hamilton less then 5 Mins ago!


----------



## NE933

RR.net has the initial report at 8:22PM, then the Hamilton sighting at 9:33 (my favorite number, but anyway), an hour and eleven minutes between Wilmington departure and Hamilton fly by either makes this one really, really high speed, or, there are two ACS-64's on the Corridor. The one that went through Albany. Either that or one of the posters was off on the Wilmington departure.


----------



## Acela150

Albany??


----------



## NE933

Didn't the Lake Shore supposedly bring in 603, the next in llne, to Albany?


----------



## Acela150

I would believe that it went to BOS. To test on the north end. If not it would have run to WAS and a separate move would be made to get the unit to WIL.


----------



## NE933

Yes that's true, as Boston would be a logical point to send it to, so as to test the wires, signals, and track up there, spread the butter around a little. Then again, if they are testing for magnetic fields and electonic interference, having two going in opposite directions would be optimal, no? I remember this was one of the many heartaches the HHP8's gave to Amtrak, and now once bitten twice shy doesn't want another chance with that.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Welcome to Train Orders: NEC Annex, AU Chapter.


----------



## Fan Railer

Ryan said:


> This was posted in another thread:
> 
> 
> I also found two new videos apparently from someone who has access at Pueblo.


To be honest, 3/4 of a mile for 0-125 is completely unrealistic for this kind of scenario. I ran a simulation with the ACS-64 I'm currently developing for OpenBVE with 8 cars (weights made as realistic as possible; locomotive at 98t, and 8 loaded coaches at 52t each). The acceleration curve was generated to mimic the tractive effort curve (starting TE, then continuous TE at 55mph). On maximum throttle at those specs, it takes about 3 minutes (and 3.5 miles) to accelerate from a stop to 125 mph. So I wouldn't put too much stalk in those rumors of 3/4 of a mile.

Speaking to the video, if you watch in HD, you can see in the tractive effort monitor, the throttle is set to commanding around 65 klbs of TE, which is about 90.2% of maximum spec'd TE (65/72 klbs)


----------



## Fan Railer

Two videos (credits to the uploaders in the videos) from tonight's test run:


----------



## ayezee

Why have a P-42 in tow for the testing? I assume its in case it breaks down but wouldn't a AEM-7 or HHP-8 work just as good, not to mention are speed rated higher than the P-42 to allow for testing above 110mph.


----------



## Nathanael

"climate testing"? :huh: I don't see how to do "climate testing" in the Northeast in the summer.


----------



## jis

Climate testing is indeed why it is at Hornell. They will be using the indoor climate testing facility at Alstom's Hornell plant.

(null)


----------



## battalion51

ayezee said:


> Why have a P-42 in tow for the testing? I assume its in case it breaks down but wouldn't a AEM-7 or HHP-8 work just as good, not to mention are speed rated higher than the P-42 to allow for testing above 110mph.


You use a P-42 in case the ACS somehow damages the catenary. Don't forget this is just the initial testing, they're probably checking out some stuff to see how it does under its own power before they start to get into the heavy duty testing with long train sets and high speeds.


----------



## ayezee

battalion51 said:


> ayezee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why have a P-42 in tow for the testing? I assume its in case it breaks down but wouldn't a AEM-7 or HHP-8 work just as good, not to mention are speed rated higher than the P-42 to allow for testing above 110mph.
> 
> 
> 
> You use a P-42 in case the ACS somehow damages the catenary. Don't forget this is just the initial testing, they're probably checking out some stuff to see how it does under its own power before they start to get into the heavy duty testing with long train sets and high speeds.
Click to expand...

Thanks that makes sense


----------



## Big Jim Video Productions

A brand-new, quick video - from late last night in Morrisville, PA, footage of Amtrak's brand new ACS 64 "Cities Sprinter" engine testing on the Northeast Corridor in the dark of night - enjoy!!


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> Climate testing is indeed why it is at Hornell. They will be using the indoor climate testing facility at Alstom's Hornell plant.


Ah. They are testing indoor climates. Hmmm? ;-)

Actually, seriously, I'd like to know what an "indoor climate testing facility" can do. I suppose it's a big sealed room with heaters, air conditioners, and something to pump moisture into the air?


----------



## Ryan

Exactly. Only way to really test things like that.


----------



## jis

Nathanael said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Climate testing is indeed why it is at Hornell. They will be using the indoor climate testing facility at Alstom's Hornell plant.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. They are testing indoor climates. Hmmm? ;-)
> 
> Actually, seriously, I'd like to know what an "indoor climate testing facility" can do. I suppose it's a big sealed room with heaters, air conditioners, and something to pump moisture into the air?
Click to expand...

Yep. I really like the simulated rain showers. They look pretty impressive!


----------



## Fan Railer

here are some videos of loco 602 actually coming to a stop and starting up again on its own power (harder to find due to the poor choice of title):


----------



## Acela150

Does that kid have a Bedtime? :help: :giggle: His voice and the bounciness of the shot got annoying real fast. :huh:


----------



## Agent

Acela150 said:


> Does that kid have a Bedtime? :help: :giggle: His voice and the bounciness of the shot got annoying real fast. :huh:


Just be thankful he had a tripod. On the plus side, I'm glad to see the younger generation enjoying filming trains. Although (speaking a bit from experience here), he'll probably cringe a little when watches this when he's older.


----------



## Acela150

Agent said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does that kid have a Bedtime? :help: :giggle: His voice and the bounciness of the shot got annoying real fast. :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> Just be thankful he had a tripod. On the plus side, I'm glad to see the younger generation enjoying filming trains. Although (speaking a bit from experience here), he'll probably cringe a little when watches this when he's older.
Click to expand...

I'll agree about the tripod.. But from the bouncing it appeared he didn't use it much.

I'll also agree with the cringing.. I did some stuff when I was younger and now it's the, What was I doing?? Thing.. But hey we're kids at one point in time.


----------



## NE933

Acela150 said:


> Does that kid have a Bedtime? :help: :giggle: His voice and the bounciness of the shot got annoying real fast. :huh:


What?! I thought it was refreshing (his amazement and optimism), had a vibrance sorely lacking in communications today. It was pure, uncontaminated.


----------



## cirdan

battalion51 said:


> ayezee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why have a P-42 in tow for the testing? I assume its in case it breaks down but wouldn't a AEM-7 or HHP-8 work just as good, not to mention are speed rated higher than the P-42 to allow for testing above 110mph.
> 
> 
> 
> You use a P-42 in case the ACS somehow damages the catenary. Don't forget this is just the initial testing, they're probably checking out some stuff to see how it does under its own power before they start to get into the heavy duty testing with long train sets and high speeds.
Click to expand...

 Maybe initially its not even providing power, but they're just measuring the interaction between pantograph and catenary to see if its within the specs.

I spent half a year testing new locomotives for ABB Transportation in Switzerland back in 1994 and we'd extensively test the mechanical side before even switching on power, and then we'd start with the low-voltage and auxiliary stuff and only after all that was found to be perfect and signed off by higher authority would we be allowed to actually turn on the traction power.


----------



## jis

Apparently the test motor is running under its own power now.

It will probably be a little while before they do any high speed tests though. Most likely the first order of business is verifying that it works with the signal, communication and control systems, there are no unexpected interferences etc. At present they may still be checking mechanical (clearances etc.) and basic traction matters before they move on to those.


----------



## Acela150

NE933 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does that kid have a Bedtime? :help: :giggle: His voice and the bounciness of the shot got annoying real fast. :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> What?! I thought it was refreshing (his amazement and optimism), had a vibrance sorely lacking in communications today. It was pure, uncontaminated.
Click to expand...

I can agree with that. Young Railfans are needed in what some call a "Dying hobby".


----------



## PRR 60

The great progress with the production and testing of the ACS-64 motors certainly contrasts with the seeming snail pace of the production of the Viewliner II cars - already a year late and counting. Is it possible that the first ACS-64 goes into revenue service before the first Viewliner II heads out to Pueblo for testing? Of course, the ACS-64 is being designed and built by Siemans (who knows a thing or two about electrical stuff), and the Viewliner II is being designed and built by CAF. That probably says it all.


----------



## jis

CAF actually knows quite a bit about designing and building passenger cars, though it has its own collection of skeletons in its closet.

The problem with Viewliner II is apparently that it is designed by Amtrak and built by someone else. The Viewliner I project was not exactly a cake walk either, involving an underbid being accepted followed by a bankruptcy and recovery from that, all in the name of encouraging American carbuilders of course. The net result was that Alstom is now the stucky for any residual responsibilities. We shall see what happens with Viewliner IIs. But in the same spirit as PRR's comment about CAAF, I do wonder if it would have been any different if it was Bombardier, Alstom, Kinki or Kawasaki building these.


----------



## rrdude

I found the kids enthusiasm, well, spot-on. That's prolly how most of us felt at a younger age. I actually sent the link to my co-worker, and wrote, "See, this is how it starts......."

Younger fans are truly needed, and at least a few legacy carriers kind of realize ths, adsdoes Amtrak.


----------



## CHamilton

Acela150 said:


> Young Railfans are needed in what some call a "Dying hobby".


I met a railfan on my recent Canadian trip who's just going off to college. We're connected on Facebook now, and it turns out that he has a bunch of friends who are _major_ railfans. So I'm not worried about the hobby dying. I just hope that these folks actually get to _ride_ trains, rather than simply taking pictures of them.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Based on the Kids I see riding Trains (including School Groups and Families traveling Together!), the Turnout on such things as National Train Day, Thomas the Train Special Events and just the Kids I see hanging around Train Stations and the Tracks I'm confident that our Hobby (and some of us our First Love) will not Die but will Grow and be Passed On to future Generations! As the Old Amtrak Ad said: "There's Something About a Train!"


----------



## Acela150

CHamilton said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Young Railfans are needed in what some call a "Dying hobby".
> 
> 
> 
> I met a railfan on my recent Canadian trip who's just going off to college. We're connected on Facebook now, and it turns out that he has a bunch of friends who are _major_ railfans. So I'm not worried about the hobby dying. I just hope that these folks actually get to _ride_ trains, rather than simply taking pictures of them.
Click to expand...

I agree Charlie. I would always be out and about photographing trains. But then started riding them more and more. It's a ton of fun doing both! But at least when you ride the train you can take photos of trains in new places! 

I don't consider it a dying hobby. Railfans in this area mostly are of the middle aged to seniors. Very hard to find young railfans around Philly. I've seen a few but not many.


----------



## cirdan

Acela150 said:


> I don't consider it a dying hobby. Railfans in this area mostly are of the middle aged to seniors. Very hard to find young railfans around Philly. I've seen a few but not many.


The same in my observation.

I'm also concerned, at least in my observation, that railfans are virtually all white and over 40. Are we scaring off railfans from minorities by not being sufficiently sensitive? I've met a handful of railfans of Indian origin and also from China, but I never met or saw an African American or Latino railfan. I wonder why.


----------



## Bob Dylan

cirdan said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider it a dying hobby. Railfans in this area mostly are of the middle aged to seniors. Very hard to find young railfans around Philly. I've seen a few but not many.
> 
> 
> 
> The same in my observation.
> 
> I'm also concerned, at least in my observation, that railfans are virtually all white and over 40. Are we scaring off railfans from minorities by not being sufficiently sensitive? I've met a handful of railfans of Indian origin and also from China, but I never met or saw an African American or Latino railfan. I wonder why.
Click to expand...

I don't know where you live (I know Acela 150 is from Philly) but down here in Texas there are lots of Railfans and Riders who are Latino, Black, Asian and Other! (this is Austin after all! :giggle: ) The Lamar Street RR Bridge (Built in 1881) on which the Texas Eagles and UP Freights Cross Lady Bird Lake always has all kinds of people (mostly Tourists but lots of Young) watching Trains cross the Bridge from the Pedestrian Bridge next to it and even taking Pictures! Every time I ride the Eagle, whether North or South, I see lots of Kids waving @ the Train, at least around here they dont throw Rocks or Shoot @ the Train like other Places!!  YMMV


----------



## cirdan

jimhudson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't consider it a dying hobby. Railfans in this area mostly are of the middle aged to seniors. Very hard to find young railfans around Philly. I've seen a few but not many.
> 
> 
> 
> The same in my observation.
> 
> I'm also concerned, at least in my observation, that railfans are virtually all white and over 40. Are we scaring off railfans from minorities by not being sufficiently sensitive? I've met a handful of railfans of Indian origin and also from China, but I never met or saw an African American or Latino railfan. I wonder why.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know where you live (I know Acela 150 is from Philly) but down here in Texas there are lots of Railfans and Riders who are Latino, Black, Asian and Other! (this is Austin after all! :giggle: ) The Lamar Street RR Bridge (Built in 1881) on which the Texas Eagles and UP Freights Cross Lady Bird Lake always has all kinds of people (mostly Tourists but lots of Young) watching Trains cross the Bridge from the Pedestrian Bridge next to it and even taking Pictures! Every time I ride the Eagle, whether North or South, I see lots of Kids waving @ the Train, at least around here they dont throw Rocks or Shoot @ the Train like other Places!!  YMMV
Click to expand...

 Maybe I should have been more specific. I wasn't really talking about people who wave at trains or otherwise think they're cool, but people like myself who are more in the foamer category, who go places specially to see trains, who plan their vacations not primarily around the destination but about the train ride to get there, have taken tens of thousands of train pictures in their life, who regularly buy train magazines and books, have a model railroad, are a member in a local group or club etc etc.


----------



## sitzplatz17

I'm part of a model railroad club in the DC area and we have pretty broad mix.

Yes, the vast majority are men and most are white and older. But we have a significant group of younger foamers as well as different races and ethnicities (including African-Americans).


----------



## Fan Railer

REPOST from another forum:

Here's a teaser video from my Boston trip. Unfortunately I can't upload the rest of it until tomorrow since the hotel internet is slow and inconsistent. Here, at one of the only stops on the NEC where trains can accelerate out of the station at full throttle without low speed restrictions, we are afforded rare opportunities to catch Amtrak's trains showing off their full might and power. Train 173 NE Regional departs first with Toaster Rehab 904. The Acela, train 2163 is running 20 minutes late, and the engineer does a good job of indicating that he plans to make up that time. Just watch her fly out of the station. This is also one of the few spots that affords a decent opportunity to record traction motor sounds. Can't wait to come back in a few years and see how the ACS-64s perform coming out of this station.


----------



## Acela150

Nice video!


----------



## amtkstn

Most kids like trains when they are young. When they get about 12 to 15, other things make them get out of liking trains.


----------



## MrFSS




----------



## Nathanael

cirdan said:


> Maybe I should have been more specific. I wasn't really talking about people who wave at trains or otherwise think they're cool, but people like myself who are more in the foamer category, who go places specially to see trains, who plan their vacations not primarily around the destination but about the train ride to get there, have taken tens of thousands of train pictures in their life, who regularly buy train magazines and books, have a model railroad, are a member in a local group or club etc etc.


Meh. It always was a minority hobby and it always will be. I mean, even I don't qualify by that standard, and I make a point of planning my trips by train, and have a few railroad atlases. But I don't think there's any sense in which railfanning is "dying".

I think the number of "casual" train supporters -- people who will make a point of taking the train rather than some other mode of transport -- is growing by leaps and bounds. I think this is far more important than the number of fanatical railfans. Even for rail museum operations, these people provide the deep base of interest which keeps the museums funded, if not the supply of volunteers which keeps the museums running.

The revival of trains as an ordinary thing also reduces the pressure in some sense; someone who might have had to go to a club to get any exposure to trains may now just get on the train. You may see a reduction in the intensity of interest, but that's a side-effect of a good thing (more trains).


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> CAF actually knows quite a bit about designing and building passenger cars, though it has its own collection of skeletons in its closet.
> The problem with Viewliner II is apparently that it is designed by Amtrak and built by someone else


Citation needed.

All the leaks which came out about the year-long delay said that the problem had to do with the combination of "built in America" requirements, and difficulty of finding Americans who knew how to weld stainless steel properly, which is apparently a highly specialized skill.


----------



## jis

Nathanael said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAF actually knows quite a bit about designing and building passenger cars, though it has its own collection of skeletons in its closet.
> 
> The problem with Viewliner II is apparently that it is designed by Amtrak and built by someone else
> 
> 
> 
> Citation needed.
> All the leaks which came out about the year-long delay said that the problem had to do with the combination of "built in America" requirements, and difficulty of finding Americans who knew how to weld stainless steel properly, which is apparently a highly specialized skill.
Click to expand...

It was just my opinion. I don't give citation for my opinions  
I find the finding welders thing a highly dubious thing since others seem to have no difficulty. But again my opinion, so there will be no citation.


----------



## Bob Dylan

MrFSS said:


>


 Nice Video Tom! Sort of strange to see Joe Boardman and the other VIPs dressed up like Real Workers in their Safety Vests and Hard Hats! I Look forward to when it actually goes into Much Needed Service on the NEC!!!


----------



## jis

jimhudson said:


>


Shouldn't have to wait long. I hear it could be as early as by the end of October.


----------



## BLOND37

forgive me if this has been asked, answered or posted else where  but i was reading today on facebook that amtrak is testing new locomotives on the NEC that can go up to 125mph...

is that faster than the acela?

will it make the pvd to nyp trip any faster?

its just the locomotives that are new right not the passenger cars?

when will they be officially running?


----------



## jis

BLOND37 said:


> forgive me if this has been asked, answered or posted else where  but i was reading today on facebook that amtrak is testing new locomotives on the NEC that can go up to 125mph...
> 
> is that faster than the acela?


No. Acelas go faster than that. 125mph is the speed at which the Regionals run. These engines are meant to power the Regionals as the older engines are progressively retired.


> will it make the pvd to nyp trip any faster?


Probably not, though technically these engines should be able to keep to a somewhat faster schedule since they are better performers than the current ones.


> its just the locomotives that are new right not the passenger cars?


Correct


> when will they be officially running?


Definitely by the end of the year, and possibly as early as by November, if everything goes according to plans.


----------



## BLOND37

jis said:


> BLOND37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> forgive me if this has been asked, answered or posted else where  but i was reading today on facebook that amtrak is testing new locomotives on the NEC that can go up to 125mph...
> 
> is that faster than the acela?
> 
> 
> 
> No. Acelas go faster than that. 125mph is the speed at which the Regionals run. These engines are meant to power the Regionals as the older engines are progressively retired.
> 
> 
> 
> will it make the pvd to nyp trip any faster?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Probably not, though technically these engines should be able to keep to a somewhat faster schedule since they are better performers than the current ones.
> 
> 
> 
> its just the locomotives that are new right not the passenger cars?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct
> 
> 
> 
> when will they be officially running?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Definitely by the end of the year, and possibly as early as by November, if everything goes according to plans.
Click to expand...

oh cool thank you for answering all questions 

i LOVE my acela but was hoping for faster even newer trains hahahah


----------



## Bob Dylan

Wont the LD Trains have to wait for the New Baggage/Dorm Cars and Diners to be placed into Service Before the LD Trains can go 125 mph on the NEC! :help:


----------



## Tracktwentynine

jimhudson said:


> Wont the LD Trains have to wait for the New Baggage/Dorm Cars and Diners to be placed into Service Before the LD Trains can go 125 mph on the NEC! :help:


That won't be too much longer. The Viewliner IIs will replace all the heritage bags and diners soon.

On the other hand, aren't the Viewliner Is only rated for 110?


----------



## jis

Tracktwentynine said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wont the LD Trains have to wait for the New Baggage/Dorm Cars and Diners to be placed into Service Before the LD Trains can go 125 mph on the NEC! :help:
> 
> 
> 
> That won't be too much longer. The Viewliner IIs will replace all the heritage bags and diners soon.
> On the other hand, aren't the Viewliner Is only rated for 110?
Click to expand...

Yep. So the LD trains will Sleepers will take a while tog et to 125mph. But trains like the Palmetto will be able to go to 125mph as soon as they get new Viewliner Baggage cars.


----------



## NE933

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="jis" data-cid="463123" data-time="1377001495"><p>

CAF actually knows quite a bit about designing and building passenger cars, though it has its own collection of skeletons in its closet.</p></blockquote>

What sort of skeletons?


----------



## Acela150

So from Reading Jis' post would I be correct in saying the new VL's will be rated for 125? If so will the current VL's be upgraded and if so how long would that take?


----------



## Texan Eagle

BLOND37 said:


> oh cool thank you for answering all questions
> 
> i LOVE my acela but was hoping for faster even newer trains hahahah


Your any chance of seeing a train in the US that goes faster than Acela is only when the California High Speed Rail starts operating, which will be in the year 2021.. or 2025.. or 2040.. or never.


----------



## Acela150

Texan Eagle said:


> BLOND37 said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh cool thank you for answering all questions
> 
> i LOVE my acela but was hoping for faster even newer trains hahahah
> 
> 
> 
> or never.
Click to expand...

LOL! That goes for the rest of HSR... :lol: I'm 21 and pretty sure that I'll be long dead when trains hit anything over 160MPH. Which hopefully AE is able to start running. But a train going 220MPH.. I'm pretty sure I won't see that in my lifetime.


----------



## jis

NE933 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAF actually knows quite a bit about designing and building passenger cars, though it has its own collection of skeletons in its closet.
> 
> 
> 
> What sort of skeletons?
Click to expand...

Each equipment manufacturer has one or two sad tales of missed delivery deadlines or systemic failures that they had to fix after delivery. It is only in that sense I said that. AFAIK CAF does not have anything as spectacular as Breda in their closet.


----------



## Acela150

Breada.. Ask Boston's MBTA about their severely screwed up Type 8 Street Cars.

Hyundai Rotem.. Won the bid for Septa and MBTA commuter cars. Septa received their last SL V 4 to 5 years behind schedule and MBTA is just getting their cars 5 years behind schedule. Here's the best part.. Septa hasn't ruled out Rotem for the SL VI contract. But if Rotem is selected for the SL VI contract, Septa will be under some serious fire very quickly, The SL V contract was supposed to goto Kawasaki but was ultimately taken away and put back up. That caused a fire storm here in Philly.


----------



## NE933

Kawasaki is very good, at least with transit cars. I see no reason to not at least look at ther bid for Amfleet I & 2 replacements, when it gets announced anyway.


----------



## jis

Yes Kawasaki subway cars in NY are hitting more and more spectacular MDBF numbers. They just keep going and going and going without failures or problems. NYCTA is quite delighted with them is what I hear.


----------



## Acela150

Where's Piotr?? Let's ask him what they're like to run?


----------



## GG-1

Acela150 said:


> Where's Piotr?? Let's ask him what they're like to run?


I think he last said he was hustling in the yard. :giggle:

Aloha


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> Yes Kawasaki subway cars in NY are hitting more and more spectacular MDBF numbers. They just keep going and going and going without failures or problems. NYCTA is quite delighted with them is what I hear.


Philadelphia's Kawasaki trolleys are now over thirty years old. By all accounts, the "K Cars" are great vehicles and still going strong.


----------



## Blackwolf

I can vouch for Kawasaki and their strength for reliability and low maintenance. I love my two-wheeled Kawi a whole hell of a lot (though I'm sure the train variety Kawasaki is not quite as thrilling, even for a train fan!) :giggle:


----------



## Acela150

GG-1 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where's Piotr?? Let's ask him what they're like to run?
> 
> 
> 
> I think he last said he was hustling in the yard. :giggle:
> 
> Aloha
Click to expand...

Well he always hustles. 



PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Kawasaki subway cars in NY are hitting more and more spectacular MDBF numbers. They just keep going and going and going without failures or problems. NYCTA is quite delighted with them is what I hear.
> 
> 
> 
> Philadelphia's Kawasaki trolleys are now over thirty years old. By all accounts, the "K Cars" are great vehicles and still going strong.
Click to expand...

Those K cars are amazing as far as how much they can handle and perform. I hope they last for another 30! Love riding those K Cars!


----------



## afigg

With the ACS-64 thread drifting off into Viewliner IIs and train car builders, clearly we need videos of the test ACS-64 pulling a set of Amfleets at speed on the NEC to keep the foamers attention. 

Maybe before the end of this year, Amtrak will do test runs of the ACS-64 pulling a long set of Viewliner IIs and Amfleet cars at 125 mph on the NEC. A video of that will get some views.


----------



## Acela150

I doubt that Amtrak will receive that many VL II's by the end of the year.

Come to think of it, what is the best way to introduce the ACS-64? Could a run from NYP-PHL on the Pennsylvanian be a good way to start? Or a Keystoner? Or could it be run on a NER between WAS-NYP and a AEM-7 or HHP be a protect in case something happens?

Let the theories fly!!


----------



## PerRock

Acela150 said:


> I doubt that Amtrak will receive that many VL II's by the end of the year.
> Come to think of it, what is the best way to introduce the ACS-64? Could a run from NYP-PHL on the Pennsylvanian be a good way to start? Or a Keystoner? Or could it be run on a NER between WAS-NYP and a AEM-7 or HHP be a protect in case something happens?
> 
> Let the theories fly!!


Chicago to Detroit. Oh wait, we need catenaries first 

peter


----------



## Acela150

PerRock said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that Amtrak will receive that many VL II's by the end of the year.
> Come to think of it, what is the best way to introduce the ACS-64? Could a run from NYP-PHL on the Pennsylvanian be a good way to start? Or a Keystoner? Or could it be run on a NER between WAS-NYP and a AEM-7 or HHP be a protect in case something happens?
> 
> Let the theories fly!!
> 
> 
> 
> Chicago to Detroit. Oh wait, we need catenaries first
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

lol


----------



## Fan Railer

More word has it that 602 is up in the NY area for testing on the Hell Gate Line. Came up thursday night and should stay at least through today, or even the rest of the weekend.


----------



## jis

#604 will be released by Siemens within the next day or two, and it will start its treck across the country to the east coast soon thereafter. The 2 P42s for picking it up have been designated according to reports on TO.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> #604 will be released by Siemens within the next day or two, and it will start its treck across the country to the east coast soon thereafter. The 2 P42s for picking it up have been designated according to reports on TO.


Since this is the fifth unit (with the first four used for testing), it indicates that the testing has gone smoothly with no serious problems that would require a significant design or production manufacturing change. TO also reports that the Amfleets used at Pueblo have been shipped back east to WAS over the past week, so the testing at Pueblo must be wrapping up.

If the 2 units at Pueblo are shipped east and Siemens production ramps up to 2 per month, won't be long before there are a bunch of ACS-64s on the NEC.


----------



## afigg

It is reported on trainorders that #604 is on the #30 Capitol Limited arriving at WAS on 9/3. There are also 3 PVs on the CL, so #30 has a rather long consist today.


----------



## NE933

Once the ramp up starts, can't they then ship 2 at a time to save money and tying up motive power?


----------



## Acela150

Sure, but keep in mind that is dead weight they'd be towing. I think 500,000 pounds is a little bit to much extra weight for two Genesis units to pull. They'd need a third and potentially a fourth.


----------



## gmushial

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> #604 will be released by Siemens within the next day or two, and it will start its treck across the country to the east coast soon thereafter. The 2 P42s for picking it up have been designated according to reports on TO.
> 
> 
> 
> Since this is the fifth unit (with the first four used for testing), it indicates that the testing has gone smoothly with no serious problems that would require a significant design or production manufacturing change. TO also reports that the Amfleets used at Pueblo have been shipped back east to WAS over the past week, so the testing at Pueblo must be wrapping up.
> 
> If the 2 units at Pueblo are shipped east and Siemens production ramps up to 2 per month,* won't be long before there are a bunch of ACS-64s on the NEC*.
Click to expand...

Will passengers notice a difference (other than visually seeing different looking locos at the front of the trains) - or will this change only be seen by Amtrak management/beancounters?


----------



## Ryan

Better acceleration could mean better schedules, or more ability to make up time.

Less delays caused by breakdowns.


----------



## cirdan

Ryan said:


> Better acceleration could mean better schedules, or more ability to make up time.
> Less delays caused by breakdowns.


 It will be interesting to see whether they opt to use those saved minutes to cut scheduled journey time, or whether they will keep them as padding. I haven't yet seen any announcement that they intend to tighten the schedules at any point.


----------



## afigg

cirdan said:


> It will be interesting to see whether they opt to use those saved minutes to cut scheduled journey time, or whether they will keep them as padding. I haven't yet seen any announcement that they intend to tighten the schedules at any point.


If they do trim the Regional schedules because of the ACS-64 acceleration and power, it won't be until after there is a uniform ACS-64 locomotive fleet or close to it. So long as they are running a mix of locomotive types with AEM-7DC's to ACS-64s, have to set the schedule on the lowest performance loco in use. At the reported delivery rate of 2 per month, it will take another ~32 months to deliver all 70 units. In the meantime, the better acceleration and, one would hope, better reliability of the ACS-64s as they are deployed should boost the overall on-time performance of the Regionals.


----------



## jis

I doubt that they will trim schedules of Regionals until such time when they can trip schedules of Acelas. They are hardly likely to undermine Adela revenues by making the schedule running time of Regionals closer to those of Acelas.


----------



## gmushial

afigg said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to see whether they opt to use those saved minutes to cut scheduled journey time, or whether they will keep them as padding. I haven't yet seen any announcement that they intend to tighten the schedules at any point.
> 
> 
> 
> If they do trim the Regional schedules because of the ACS-64 acceleration and power, it won't be until after there is a uniform ACS-64 locomotive fleet or close to it. So long as they are running a mix of locomotive types with AEM-7DC's to ACS-64s, have to set the schedule on the lowest performance loco in use. At the reported delivery rate of 2 per month, it will take another ~32 months to deliver all 70 units. In the meantime, the better acceleration and, one would hope, better reliability of the ACS-64s as they are deployed should boost the overall on-time performance of the Regionals.
Click to expand...

Being on the other coast (still), I have an understanding that the 7DCs weren't the most reliable loco to be had... two questions: 1) just how unreliable were they, ie, how many spare units did they have to keep so as to have enough to run the scheduled trips, and 2) did the 7DCs tend to have a single point of failure, or were they like a 1980's chevy: fix one thing and something else would break, fix that and something else would fail?

as always: many thanks - greg


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> I doubt that they will trim schedules of Regionals until such time when they can trip schedules of Acelas. They are hardly likely to undermine Adela revenues by making the schedule running time of Regionals closer to those of Acelas.


Silly me again. I would love to see ALL the trains that are permanently on the NEC between WAS & BOS get Acela-esque trainsets, albeit longer. Much longer. And maybe without the articulated bogies. The difference in service then would not be the equipment, but rather in the schedules. Acela would be much faster, stopping at 5-10 stops, Regionals would double that, and the commuters would pick up everything else. Then, the ACS-64s would be used for only LD trains with a power change in DC.


----------



## gmushial

Slightly off topic: I'm assuming the reason that the NEC was electrified was to eliminate the smoke/pollution/"emissions" produced by the trains of yesteryear (they produced many/much). Now with the electrics the pollution is generated somewhere else and the electricity is sent to the NEC for use. Two questions: 1) the total carbon footprint of the current system [emissions produced at the generation end, the emissions to produce the generation end hardware, the emissions to produce the infrastructure to get the power to the NEC, is actually less than that that would be generated by a modern tech diesel-electric loco in situ? 2) are there, has there been development done toward clean locos, along the lines done for automobiles over the last three or four decades?


----------



## Nathanael

gmushial said:


> Two questions: 1) the total carbon footprint of the current system [emissions produced at the generation end, the emissions to produce the generation end hardware, the emissions to produce the infrastructure to get the power to the NEC, is actually less than that that would be generated by a modern tech diesel-electric loco in situ?


Definitely less. This is easy:- First of all, some of the electrical generation for the NEC is from hydroelectricity and other carbon-free sources.

- Second, very large fixed-place turbine powerplants have better thermal efficiency than locomotive diesel engines.

- Third, the transportation of the diesel fuel uses a lot of energy, and this generally generates carbon emissions. Transportation of electricity has very low losses comparatively.

- Fourth, carbon emissions from refining petroleum into diesel fuel are quite substantial.

- Fifth, the diesel locomotive has to haul around diesel fuel and an engine; the electric locomotive has to haul around a transformer. The latter usually weighs less.

- Sixth, regenerative braking is implemented on modern electric locomotives, and can only be implemented to a very limited extent in diesel locomotives.



> 2) are there, has there been development done toward clean locos, along the lines done for automobiles over the last three or four decades?


Yes. Diesel locomotives are actually very good compared to gasoline cars.


----------



## gmushial

Nathanael said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two questions: 1) the total carbon footprint of the current system [emissions produced at the generation end, the emissions to produce the generation end hardware, the emissions to produce the infrastructure to get the power to the NEC, is actually less than that that would be generated by a modern tech diesel-electric loco in situ?
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely less. This is easy:- First of all, some of the electrical generation for the NEC is from hydroelectricity and other carbon-free sources.
> 
> - Second, very large fixed-place turbine powerplants have better thermal efficiency than locomotive diesel engines.
> 
> - Third, the transportation of the diesel fuel uses a lot of energy, and this generally generates carbon emissions. Transportation of electricity has very low losses comparatively.
> 
> - Fourth, carbon emissions from refining petroleum into diesel fuel are quite substantial.
> 
> - Fifth, the diesel locomotive has to haul around diesel fuel and an engine; the electric locomotive has to haul around a transformer. The latter usually weighs less.
> 
> - Sixth, regenerative braking is implemented on modern electric locomotives, and can only be implemented to a very limited extent in diesel locomotives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2) are there, has there been development done toward clean locos, along the lines done for automobiles over the last three or four decades?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. Diesel locomotives are actually very good compared to gasoline cars.
Click to expand...

An excellent, well thought out answer - thank you.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that they will trim schedules of Regionals until such time when they can trip schedules of Acelas. They are hardly likely to undermine Adela revenues by making the schedule running time of Regionals closer to those of Acelas.
> 
> 
> 
> Silly me again. I would love to see ALL the trains that are permanently on the NEC between WAS & BOS get Acela-esque trainsets, albeit longer. Much longer. And maybe without the articulated bogies. The difference in service then would not be the equipment, but rather in the schedules. Acela would be much faster, stopping at 5-10 stops, Regionals would double that, and the commuters would pick up everything else. Then, the ACS-64s would be used for only LD trains with a power change in DC.
Click to expand...

yes, given enough money that would be an ideal situation. But I don't see that happening in the next several decades.
Articulated bogies? Who has articulated bogies. nothing on the NEC at present. Semi-permanently coupled, yes, articulated, no.

I also don't think that there will ever be enough LD trains to require 70 electric locomotives to haul them around on the NEC.


----------



## VentureForth

My bad. Thought the Acelas were articulated, hence permanently coupled.

Maybe I'm thinking Talgos...


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that they will trim schedules of Regionals until such time when they can trip schedules of Acelas. They are hardly likely to undermine Adela revenues by making the schedule running time of Regionals closer to those of Acelas.
> 
> 
> 
> Silly me again. I would love to see ALL the trains that are permanently on the NEC between WAS & BOS get Acela-esque trainsets, albeit longer. Much longer. And maybe without the articulated bogies. The difference in service then would not be the equipment, but rather in the schedules. Acela would be much faster, stopping at 5-10 stops, Regionals would double that, and the commuters would pick up everything else. Then, the ACS-64s would be used for only LD trains with a power change in DC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, given enough money that would be an ideal situation. But I don't see that happening in the next several decades.
> Articulated bogies? Who has articulated bogies. nothing on the NEC at present. Semi-permanently coupled, yes, articulated, no.
> 
> I also don't think that there will ever be enough LD trains to require 70 electric locomotives to haul them around on the NEC.
Click to expand...

Jis talking about Articulated bogies, could the Next Gen HSR benefit from these? IIRC the X2000 had them.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> Jis talking about Articulated bogies, could the Next Gen HSR benefit from these? IIRC the X2000 had them.


I don't believe X2000s are articulated. See for example:

http://funini.com/train/sweden/x2000/09.html

TGVs are articulated. See:


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> I doubt that they will trim schedules of Regionals until such time when they can trip schedules of Acelas. They are hardly likely to undermine Adela revenues by making the schedule running time of Regionals closer to those of Acelas.


Good point. Don't undercut the money maker. First, as some of the current NEC projects are completed, improve the Acela trip times to keep the Acela ridership up - and show that progress is being made on the NEC Then eventually follow that with trims to the Regional trip times.


----------



## gmushial

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that they will trim schedules of Regionals until such time when they can trip schedules of Acelas. They are hardly likely to undermine Adela revenues by making the schedule running time of Regionals closer to those of Acelas.
> 
> 
> 
> Silly me again. I would love to see ALL the trains that are permanently on the NEC between WAS & BOS get Acela-esque trainsets, albeit longer. Much longer. And maybe without the articulated bogies. The difference in service then would not be the equipment, but rather in the schedules. Acela would be much faster, stopping at 5-10 stops, Regionals would double that, and the commuters would pick up everything else. Then, the ACS-64s would be used for only LD trains with a power change in DC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, given enough money that would be an ideal situation. But I don't see that happening in the next several decades.
> Articulated bogies? Who has articulated bogies. nothing on the NEC at present. Semi-permanently coupled, yes, articulated, no.
> 
> I also don't think that there will ever be enough LD trains to require 70 electric locomotives to haul them around on the NEC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jis talking about Articulated bogies, could the Next Gen HSR benefit from these? IIRC the X2000 had them.
Click to expand...

Unless they're incredibly well damped, isn't there too much of a chance of introducing degrees of freedom that translate into resonances (and in the extreme self-destructive behaviors) - from the auto racing world: at high speeds, when things go wrong, they go very badly wrong, very quickly? Maybe supporting that many tons this is less of a concern or problem??


----------



## jis

One of the most stable high speed trains in existence today is the TGV and it is articulated. So I am not sure what you are trying to get at. Of course one would not design things with resonant frequencies that are easily excited in day to day operation. One can have similar problems even in single rail cars. Designing vehicles taking t=such things into account is not rocket science and is very well understood engineering discipline.


----------



## gmushial

I guess my concern comes from both auto racing, where at high speeds things "just happen" that weren't supposed to be able to do such; and from spaceflight where yet again, unexpected vibrations can cause unexpected and very destructive things to happen... if as you say that it's a very well understood discipline: I'll leave it to those that fully understand the engineering.... but from previous experience the operative message, sometimes learned the hard way: if it doesn't absolutely need to gimbal, lock it down - especially if human lives are at stake. Maybe on an ultra smooth surface where outside excitations are less inclined to be induced, then maybe such is that way to go; but in the case of pushing existing rails to higher limits, I would be concerned (though maybe without merit).


----------



## cirdan

gmushial said:


> I guess my concern comes from both auto racing, where at high speeds things "just happen" that weren't supposed to be able to do such; and from spaceflight where yet again, unexpected vibrations can cause unexpected and very destructive things to happen... if as you say that it's a very well understood discipline: I'll leave it to those that fully understand the engineering.... but from previous experience the operative message, sometimes learned the hard way: if it doesn't absolutely need to gimbal, lock it down - especially if human lives are at stake. Maybe on an ultra smooth surface where outside excitations are less inclined to be induced, then maybe such is that way to go; but in the case of pushing existing rails to higher limits, I would be concerned (though maybe without merit).


 You can't really compare trains to auto racing. In auto racing, cars are built to go as fast as possible and this can sometimes be at the cost of optimizing to the limits and leaving very little margin to absorb things when things go wrong. A train is designed to provide 30 to 40 years of service clocking up many millions of miles whereas a racing car may at best be required to provide a season or two of performance with a lot of breathing space between races to thoroughly rebuild anything that has gone wrong.

TGVs have run at speeds of something like 570km/h on test runs. many individual parts have been exposed to simulated speeds on testers that were considerably higher than that even. In service they run at a max of 350 km/h. This shows the margin of safety there is in the system. Furthermore, speeds have not increased in leaps and bounds but have been gradually ramped up over the years in line with experience and confidence levels. The initial TGV ran at 250 km/h and this was upgraded to 270 km/h after a year or two. As the second generation came online they went to 300 km/h (with many of the older sets being retrofitted), then they did 320, then 350. This is a development that spans 30 years, not 6 months. With all those 100s of sets still in service, and close collaboration between SNCF and Alstom with operating and maintenance experience flowing back into the design process, and technical staff also being exchanged between the companies on a regular basis, you can bet that if there is anything nasty that can go wrong, that the right people are aware of that and have thought of something.


----------



## jis

TGVs also have a perfect safety record in high speed derailments, specially the one caused by a part of the track structure collapsing into a long lost WW I trench remnants, causing a TGV to derail at more or less full speed. The only serious injuries were to people standing trackside from flying ballast.


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> I doubt that they will trim schedules of Regionals until such time when they can trip schedules of Acelas. They are hardly likely to undermine Adela revenues by making the schedule running time of Regionals closer to those of Acelas.


Well then... how about the matter of trimming the schedules of the long-distance trains on the NEC? And, for that matter, #66/67? I guess, in both of those cases, schedule trimming has to wait for the new Viewliners. (Where are they, anyway? Last I heard -- which was April -- the first 8 "for testing" were supposed to be off the line by now. Does anyone have any idea?)


----------



## gmushial

cirdan said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess my concern comes from both auto racing, where at high speeds things "just happen" that weren't supposed to be able to do such; and from spaceflight where yet again, unexpected vibrations can cause unexpected and very destructive things to happen... if as you say that it's a very well understood discipline: I'll leave it to those that fully understand the engineering.... but from previous experience the operative message, sometimes learned the hard way: if it doesn't absolutely need to gimbal, lock it down - especially if human lives are at stake. Maybe on an ultra smooth surface where outside excitations are less inclined to be induced, then maybe such is that way to go; but in the case of pushing existing rails to higher limits, I would be concerned (though maybe without merit).
> 
> 
> 
> You can't really compare trains to auto racing. In auto racing, cars are built to go as fast as possible and this can sometimes be at the cost of optimizing to the limits and leaving very little margin to absorb things when things go wrong. A train is designed to provide 30 to 40 years of service clocking up many millions of miles whereas a racing car may at best be required to provide a season or two of performance with a lot of breathing space between races to thoroughly rebuild anything that has gone wrong.
> 
> TGVs have run at speeds of something like 570km/h on test runs. many individual parts have been exposed to simulated speeds on testers that were considerably higher than that even. In service they run at a max of 350 km/h. This shows the margin of safety there is in the system. Furthermore, speeds have not increased in leaps and bounds but have been gradually ramped up over the years in line with experience and confidence levels. The initial TGV ran at 250 km/h and this was upgraded to 270 km/h after a year or two. As the second generation came online they went to 300 km/h (with many of the older sets being retrofitted), then they did 320, then 350. This is a development that spans 30 years, not 6 months. With all those 100s of sets still in service, and close collaboration between SNCF and Alstom with operating and maintenance experience flowing back into the design process, and technical staff also being exchanged between the companies on a regular basis, you can bet that if there is anything nasty that can go wrong, that the right people are aware of that and have thought of something.
Click to expand...




jis said:


> TGVs also have a perfect safety record in high speed derailments, specially the one caused by a part of the track structure collapsing into a long lost WW I trench remnants, causing a TGV to derail at more or less full speed. The only serious injuries were to people standing trackside from flying ballast.


Both, learned responses - thank you.

But I think, and this is not to say that I really disagree with what was said - but race cars, at least professional ones, aren't really "tweaked" to within a hair of exploding/crashing etc. Given what a team costs to run, and the liability exposure of killing a driver, or worse people in the stands, and just simply the coast of a car, yes engines are quite often treated as consumables, but aerodynamics are typically wind tunnel tested not only for desired effects, but also potentially instabilities. I guess what I'm feeling discomforted by is the experience of when aerodynamic shaping became the norm during the 80's: it seemed that it didn't matter how many hours one spent in the tunnels, how many millions of dollars one spent in achieving the desired effects and still giving one sufficient engineering margins: "stuff" always happened. The case that comes to mind immediately was the nose/chin spooks which provided the front-end down-force. All the tunnel testing never hinted at the problem of having another car in front of your car, dirtying the air, negating the necessary down-force and turning the car into a lifting body. Fine, nobody saw that one, and all the teams went back, spent further millions on building margins in again given that contingency; only to discover that being the center car of three running side by side, could generate equal unforeseens. ... in the spook community, one thing they teach is: it's not what you don't know that'll kill you, it's what you know that isn't true that will, ie, it's when you think you have all the bases covered and aren't paying meticulous all the time to everything, double and triple checking assumptions, that the unexpected happens; and like I said before - at TGV or champ car type velocities (not all that different), when things go bad, they do so very quickly and very badly. We saw problems with tire dimensions changing with speed and temperature; we saw such little things as aero surfaces becoming wet from rain and losing laminar flow; we saw subtle changes w/re even such little things as the shape of the driver's helmet, and where it sat in the airstream. My concerns w/re the articulation might even go to the level of wet track vs dry track and the rolling resistance, or worse some wheels seeing a dry track and others not, where one could see some type of self-reinforcing behaviors introduced, and without the dry track level of friction, might no longer be self damping.

As you point out, the increase in speeds has been incremental and over a long time... but even so, just from experience, mother nature does seem to have a profound ability to toss a monkey wrench into the works, especially when one is least expecting it.

Again - thanks for the learned responses - greg


----------



## VentureForth

These scenarios are similar to what happened in Spain. No one would have guessed that even in abnormal situations that a crash so significant could occur. You can't engineer 100% safety. You can engineer 90% safety at x-cost and 95% safety at 10x-cost. In other words, the cost to increase safety at the high end exponentially grows.


----------



## cirdan

gmushial said:


> Both, learned responses - thank you.
> 
> But I think, and this is not to say that I really disagree with what was said - but race cars, at least professional ones, aren't really "tweaked" to within a hair of exploding/crashing etc. Given what a team costs to run, and the liability exposure of killing a driver, or worse people in the stands, and just simply the coast of a car, yes engines are quite often treated as consumables, but aerodynamics are typically wind tunnel tested not only for desired effects, but also potentially instabilities. I guess what I'm feeling discomforted by is the experience of when aerodynamic shaping became the norm during the 80's: it seemed that it didn't matter how many hours one spent in the tunnels, how many millions of dollars one spent in achieving the desired effects and still giving one sufficient engineering margins: "stuff" always happened. The case that comes to mind immediately was the nose/chin spooks which provided the front-end down-force. All the tunnel testing never hinted at the problem of having another car in front of your car, dirtying the air, negating the necessary down-force and turning the car into a lifting body. Fine, nobody saw that one, and all the teams went back, spent further millions on building margins in again given that contingency; only to discover that being the center car of three running side by side, could generate equal unforeseens. ... in the spook community, one thing they teach is: it's not what you don't know that'll kill you, it's what you know that isn't true that will, ie, it's when you think you have all the bases covered and aren't paying meticulous all the time to everything, double and triple checking assumptions, that the unexpected happens; and like I said before - at TGV or champ car type velocities (not all that different), when things go bad, they do so very quickly and very badly. We saw problems with tire dimensions changing with speed and temperature; we saw such little things as aero surfaces becoming wet from rain and losing laminar flow; we saw subtle changes w/re even such little things as the shape of the driver's helmet, and where it sat in the airstream. My concerns w/re the articulation might even go to the level of wet track vs dry track and the rolling resistance, or worse some wheels seeing a dry track and others not, where one could see some type of self-reinforcing behaviors introduced, and without the dry track level of friction, might no longer be self damping.
> 
> As you point out, the increase in speeds has been incremental and over a long time... but even so, just from experience, mother nature does seem to have a profound ability to toss a monkey wrench into the works, especially when one is least expecting it.
> 
> Again - thanks for the learned responses - greg



Greg, First of all, thanks for that fascinating insight into the world of auto racing. I wasn't aware of any of that.

I can't really speak for the TGV as I have never been personally involved, but I did spend some time working for a European train maker and back in my university days I attended a lecture by an experienced designer and engineer who shared many anecdotes from his own experience of different projects.

Some of those stories were pretty hairy sequences of things going wrong that really logically couldn't have gone wrong, and going wrong in such a sequence as to make things you'd consider impossible to actually happen. Resonant frequencies combined with aberrant air pressures and temperatures and all the stuff you think can really only happen in a bad movie. Also questions of human errors and safety interlocks being beaten by human ingenuity. I personally experienced a situation with such an interlock. To prevent the main contactor cabinet being open while power was switched on, there was a unique key and it could only be removed from the cabinet when this was totally closed and locked. Now there was a short-circuit switch to short-circuit that cabinet when you were working in it. And you could only move that switch if the main switch was off. So this cabinet key normally lived on that switch, and you could only remove it when it was in safe mode. Only when all those keys were inserted into one special lock in the right order could another key be released and that key was needed to start the auxiliary systems. Without them you couldn't start the train. This was furthermore backed up by an electrical system that also monitored the interlocks. But that one was more easy to beat if you stuck magnets in the right places. Now we had this technician who loved to work really hard. He did late night shifts and weekend work and did as much work as three normal guys. Of course managers were always praising him for this and giving his bonuses so he was under immense pressure to keep it up. He was pretty tired of having to go through all this key changing game every time as he was fiddling with the equipment and then test driving the train dozens if not hundreds of times a day. So he took the key home and had a copy made (it was actually a special key that normal locksmiths can't copy, so he must have done something special). Well, you can imagine what happened next. Anyway, he managed to power up the main circuit breaker while the short circuit switch was in place and the door open and blew 15 000 V through the cabinet causing damage worth several millions and bits of equipment flew through the entire factory. He was very lucky not to be injured himself. The inside of the locomotive was completely black and took several months to get working again. Interestingly, seeing he was managment's favorite guy, it was all hushed up and though I expect he got shouted at a bit behind closed doors no measures were ever taken that we were ever told about.

So yes, things can go wrong, no matter what precautions you take. But on the other hand with millions and millions of miles of experience, including several accidents, near accidents and extreme conditions, I think the probability of hidden serious defects is pretty low.


----------



## gmushial

Thanks for the excellent follow up... and yes, you fully understand my shyness/concerns. ... when one leaves grad school, one thinks they know everything and there is no problem that can't be solved/resolved, and nothing new that can't be perfectly engineered on the first go... but as the decades pass, one comes to understand just how little one in fact actually "knew." In the software world there is the expression (thinking about your tech and his extra key): it is impossible to write fool-proof software: because fools are much too clever.

So, when I see the articulation: I wish for the best, but fear for the worst. ;-) ;-(

Again, many thanks for the excellent reply - greg


----------



## Acela150

The BIGGEST!! Heads UP on the new electric. It is currently out and about. It is in a slot behind 178. He will be running all the way to BOS. Tomorrow he will make a turn and will be behind 163 to WIL.

I'll try to get out tomorrow. No idea where though..


----------



## ne52

I am pulling out of PHL right now. While waiting, the ACS pulled up 3 tracks over (about 6pm, Friday Sept 6). My pictures were pretty bad with everything in between.

It was coming from the south, leading about 4 coaches and 2 NE Regional cafe cars. One of the cafes was the only car to have people sitting inside and was the only car to open doors One of the toaster engines was attached to the rear.

About 8 people came in and out of the locomotive and milled about next to it. The only couple people I could see in one of the cafe cars were typing away. It sat for about 10 minutes and then I had to depart. Looked like it wasn't going anywhere for a while.


----------



## Fan Railer

Here are some pics from Chuchubob:

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615923

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615924

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615925

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615926


----------



## gmushial

Fan Railer said:


> Here are some pics from Chuchubob:http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615923
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615924
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615925
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615926


Any reason for the YELLOW forward drive wheels?


----------



## Fan Railer

gmushial said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some pics from Chuchubob:http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615923
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615924
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615925
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615926
> 
> 
> 
> Any reason for the YELLOW forward drive wheels?
Click to expand...

not sure, asked that on rr.net myself.


----------



## gmushial

Fan Railer said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some pics from Chuchubob:http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615923
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615924
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615925
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615926
> 
> 
> 
> Any reason for the YELLOW forward drive wheels?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> not sure, asked that on rr.net myself.
Click to expand...

BTW - thanks for the postings


----------



## gmushial

Is the claimed improved efficiency of the ACS-64 based solely on the regenerative capability, or are there measureable (significant) improvements in the "locomotion" side? The Amtrak .pdf http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/898/720/Amtrak-Siemens-Locomotive-ATK-13-039.pdf claims 3 billion KWH saved (over a 20 year lifetime).


----------



## Fan Railer

From Chuchubob: "The yellow wheels on the lead truck are instrumented wheelsets (IWS) that are required for the qualification of equipment to run over 90 mph."


----------



## gmushial

So, one wonders if this is as a warning to others that this is a engine in qualification; or a visual hint for those that need to find the instruments and save them from having to check one end and then the other? ... but interesting - thanks for the follow up.


----------



## Fan Railer

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1001125_507332802682542_1131700423_n.jpg


----------



## Acela150

Fan Railer said:


> Here are some pics from Chuchubob:http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615923
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615924
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3615925
> 
> http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=361592
> 
> ChuchuBob... AKA Bob Vogel.. AKA The man that gets around town.. AKA endless AKA's... I know him personally.. Very nice guy.. I have some stories I've heard about him from a family friend..


----------



## Acela150

Let me add that 901 has sat at the Wilmington shops for over a year. Good to see it out and about.

Also.. Headlight out..


----------



## Fan Railer

Videos are coming online:


----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## gmushial

Fan Railer - you've been busy... with delightful results - many thanks for the postings.

Though a question: given the rate at which the ACS travels(/can travel) - how are you able to position yourself ahead of it so as to get these vids? Or, are they not taking advantage of its top velocities yet?


----------



## Acela150

They're not all if any are FanRailers.. They're are tons of railfans that were awaiting this unit to come through.


----------



## Fan Railer

Yea, I'm just sharing stuff as it comes on youtube. Sadly, I'm stuck in Pennsylvania at college, away from the NEC. I'll be able to grab my first shots of this beauty during thanksgiving break though; by which time they should be in revenue service and hauling those lengthened holiday regionals (10-14 cars).

More from yesterday and today:


----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## NE933

Does anyone know if it's still in Penn Station yet?


----------



## Acela150

I waited at Croydon for a little over an hour and a half... No luck.... According to a post on Facebook, Piotr got it.


----------



## Fan Railer

From SSrendon:


----------



## Fan Railer

NE933 said:


> Does anyone know if it's still in Penn Station yet?


It was in Penn Station at 6:15


----------



## Acela150

Also... Train 863 today's test train is listed in ARROW, in the status section.


----------



## NE933

I saw it in Newark, NJ around 7PM-ish (I was too busy with my camera and getting freaked out to chck my watch). The LED headlights and on the ditches are awesome. There was either flicker or flashing, not sure if that's by design or not and if it is, if it will be FRA approved. This test train did not stop.


----------



## Barciur

Any tentative date for when they will be riding on the Keystone service?


----------



## Acela150

No. I would guess that these units will be put into service shortly.. At least 602. No word on 600 and 601, if they have made their way east, I'm sure their would be some word when and if they do. 604 just arrived on the east coast this week.

My guess is that the new unit will be put on a random train to start.


----------



## Fan Railer

Southbound through Philadelphia 30th street station around 7:50 tonight.


----------



## Barciur

Alright. If anyone hears about them being in service on a Keystone, do let us know, I'm dying to see it here in Lancaster.


----------



## Acela150

As of right now, testing is only the main line of the NEC. Testing on the Keystone Corridor will be separate as they will have to test it with a Cab-Car. Even then that's a stretch, all the Cab-Cars are being used everyday. I think there's only one spare and that's being Overhauled. The look gets even uglier... Just saying.. I personally think that Keystoners will get the new electrics towards the end of the AEM-7's and HHP's being put on the scrap line.


----------



## Blackwolf

Acela150 said:


> As of right now, testing is only the main line of the NEC. Testing on the Keystone Corridor will be separate as they will have to test it with a Cab-Car. Even then that's a stretch, all the Cab-Cars are being used everyday. I think there's only one spare and that's being Overhauled. The look gets even uglier... Just saying.. I personally think that Keystoners will get the new electrics towards the end of the AEM-7's and HHP's being put on the scrap line.


No (currently) serviceable spares left for the cab cars? Aren't the AmFleet cab cars what became of the original Metroliners?


----------



## Acela150

Blackwolf said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As of right now, testing is only the main line of the NEC. Testing on the Keystone Corridor will be separate as they will have to test it with a Cab-Car. Even then that's a stretch, all the Cab-Cars are being used everyday. I think there's only one spare and that's being Overhauled. The look gets even uglier... Just saying.. I personally think that Keystoners will get the new electrics towards the end of the AEM-7's and HHP's being put on the scrap line.
> 
> 
> 
> No (currently) serviceable spares left for the cab cars? Aren't the AmFleet cab cars what became of the original Metroliners?
Click to expand...

Yes, the Cab-Cars are Ex-Metroliners. The only Cab-Car that's available, isn't, it's being Retrofitted and Overhauled in Bear, DE. Photos are hard to find of the Overhauled Cab-Cars. I can't tell you how many are in use on Springfield Shuttles or Keystoners. Their are 17 Active according to OTOL.com. IIRC one was wrecked a few years back so that's now 16. That would leave 15 in service with 1 being Overhauled. So it's possible that their are say 7 Keystone sets and 3 Springfield shuttles and 2 are used on the Vermonter now. I'm not sure if those are the exact numbers. I would doubt it, but it's certainly close. Amtrak has a motor shortage and a Cab-Car shortage. Although Motor Shortages are well more documented then Cab-Cars.


----------



## NE933

Then testing shall have to occur on weekends, when there are fewer trains. Or: temporarily change operations by substituting a Genesis powered set from Phil to Harrisburg.


----------



## ayezee

NE933 said:


> Then testing shall have to occur on weekends, when there are fewer trains. Or: temporarily change operations by substituting a Genesis powered set from Phil to Harrisburg.


Or maybe just do the testing at night but again using a P42 shouldn't impact the schedule west of Philadelphia


----------



## battalion51

Acela150 said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As of right now, testing is only the main line of the NEC. Testing on the Keystone Corridor will be separate as they will have to test it with a Cab-Car. Even then that's a stretch, all the Cab-Cars are being used everyday. I think there's only one spare and that's being Overhauled. The look gets even uglier... Just saying.. I personally think that Keystoners will get the new electrics towards the end of the AEM-7's and HHP's being put on the scrap line.
> 
> 
> 
> No (currently) serviceable spares left for the cab cars? Aren't the AmFleet cab cars what became of the original Metroliners?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, the Cab-Cars are Ex-Metroliners. The only Cab-Car that's available, isn't, it's being Retrofitted and Overhauled in Bear, DE. Photos are hard to find of the Overhauled Cab-Cars. I can't tell you how many are in use on Springfield Shuttles or Keystoners. Their are 17 Active according to OTOL.com. IIRC one was wrecked a few years back so that's now 16. That would leave 15 in service with 1 being Overhauled. So it's possible that their are say 7 Keystone sets and 3 Springfield shuttles and 2 are used on the Vermonter now. I'm not sure if those are the exact numbers. I would doubt it, but it's certainly close. Amtrak has a motor shortage and a Cab-Car shortage. Although Motor Shortages are well more documented then Cab-Cars.
Click to expand...

IIRC one of the Shuttle sets isn't used on the weekends so if they need to check it out with a cab car that would likely be the ideal time to do it. At the same time it would be pretty easy to put a second P-42 on a Vermonter set and use a Vermonter cab car.


----------



## Fan Railer

Video from 9/9/13 (Monday night's) test run. Departing from Trenton; courtesy of FL92002.


----------



## Shawn Ryu

I assume they are just pushing empty cars?


----------



## rickycourtney

There are reports on The Other train forum that the ACS-64 was being tested with an ex-metroliner amfleet cab car today.


----------



## Acela150

Shawn Ryu said:


> I assume they are just pushing empty cars?


Yes. Their are some folks who are from Amtrak riding to test ride quailty, but very few.



rickycourtney said:


> There are reports on The Other train forum that the ACS-64 was being tested with an ex-metroliner amfleet cab car today.


Any idea on what forum that would be?? It wouldn't surprise me if they are. Should it be true, I would guess it could be a while before anything on the Harrisburg Line gets an ACS-64. SImply cause it's brand new technolgy with much older technolgy.


----------



## Ryan

Trainorders.


----------



## jis

Looks like they carried out the test of a cab car consist during the daylight hours on a weekday!


----------



## Fan Railer

Ryan said:


> Trainorders.


Also from railroad.net, which I report news from:

ThirdRail7: "This was the incremental test run with the cab car. The train ping ponged back and forth on the race track increasing speeds on every run until they topped out at 130 on the sixth run. Then it did a few tests between Grundy and Holmes, including one that took the Torresdale curves at 105mph. 

They were supposed to perform similar tests between Perryville and Philadelphia tonight, but last I heard they may have canceled that test and headed to Boston instead."


----------



## CT

Passing through southeastern Connecticut right now, Boston bound. 602, 4 Amfleets, and a freshly overhauled cab car.


----------



## cirdan

have they modified the cab car, or does the ACS-64 have the same remote control protocol as the AEM-7?

If so, can an ACS-64 and an AEM-7 be run in multiple?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> have they modified the cab car, or does the ACS-64 have the same remote control protocol as the AEM-7?
> 
> If so, can an ACS-64 and an AEM-7 be run in multiple?


I thought they were running as such in some of the test runs which had an AEM-7 at the other end. I did see test runs where both had pans up. Most of the rolling stock on the NEC is trainlined for operating with the controlling engine at the other end of the train.


----------



## Fan Railer

cirdan said:


> have they modified the cab car, or does the ACS-64 have the same remote control protocol as the AEM-7?
> 
> If so, can an ACS-64 and an AEM-7 be run in multiple?


Yes, the ACS can be multipled with the other locomotives on the NEC, and no, I do not think they have "modified" the cab car in the terms you're speaking of.

Here's a daytime video of the test train with the cab car heading up to Boston:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGudJwXv0K8


----------



## bgiaquin

WhoozOn1st said:


> The horn in the first video sure doesn't sound like any K5LA (in good repair) I've ever heard, but in the second video - the cab ride - it sounds typical. Same locomotive, right? The difference is so dramatic that it hardly seems to be the result of changed perspective.


It is a 3rd Generation K5LA.


----------



## gmushial

bgiaquin said:


> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> The horn in the first video sure doesn't sound like any K5LA (in good repair) I've ever heard, but in the second video - the cab ride - it sounds typical. Same locomotive, right? The difference is so dramatic that it hardly seems to be the result of changed perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a 3rd Generation K5LA.
Click to expand...

And the different generations had to do with re-tuning the horns; or had to do with physical configurations?


----------



## Fan Railer

gmushial said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> The horn in the first video sure doesn't sound like any K5LA (in good repair) I've ever heard, but in the second video - the cab ride - it sounds typical. Same locomotive, right? The difference is so dramatic that it hardly seems to be the result of changed perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a 3rd Generation K5LA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the different generations had to do with re-tuning the horns; or had to do with physical configurations?
Click to expand...

From what I hear, different casting (building) methods. Also, the "generational" terms are loose and unofficial.


----------



## gmushial

Fan Railer said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WhoozOn1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> The horn in the first video sure doesn't sound like any K5LA (in good repair) I've ever heard, but in the second video - the cab ride - it sounds typical. Same locomotive, right? The difference is so dramatic that it hardly seems to be the result of changed perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a 3rd Generation K5LA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And the different generations had to do with re-tuning the horns; or had to do with physical configurations?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From what I hear, different casting (building) methods. Also, the "generational" terms are loose and unofficial.
Click to expand...

As always - many thanks for the learned reply. BTW: in googling such, I haven't been able to find a loudness number for the K5LA's - I'm guessing 130-140 db (at 1 meter), but have you seen numbers? (I know this value changes with air pressure, but assuming nominal 135-150psi pressures.) Again: thanks - greg


----------



## battalion51

Since we're on the topic of audible alarms, am I the only one that thinks the electronic bells are potentially leading to more accidents? In the era of Quiet Zones where the bell is the only audible alarm of a passing train the electronic bells to me seem like they don't have the same volume output as the old fashioned bells. I know the electronic bells won't fail as often as a real bell, but it just seems like we're losing something with them.


----------



## Ryan

gmushial said:


> As always - many thanks for the learned reply. BTW: in googling such, I haven't been able to find a loudness number for the K5LA's - I'm guessing 130-140 db (at 1 meter), but have you seen numbers? (I know this value changes with air pressure, but assuming nominal 135-150psi pressures.) Again: thanks - greg


96 - 110dB, per 49 CFR 229.129(a)

Edit: That's at 100 feet. Determining what it is at 1 meter is left as an exercise to the reader.


----------



## gmushial

Ryan said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> As always - many thanks for the learned reply. BTW: in googling such, I haven't been able to find a loudness number for the K5LA's - I'm guessing 130-140 db (at 1 meter), but have you seen numbers? (I know this value changes with air pressure, but assuming nominal 135-150psi pressures.) Again: thanks - greg
> 
> 
> 
> 96 - 110dB, per 49 CFR 229.129(a)
> 
> Edit: That's at 100 feet. Determining what it is at 1 meter is left as an exercise to the reader.
Click to expand...

Ryan - many thanks.

100 ft is approx. 30.73m, therefore the sound pressure level difference would be approx. 30 dB (29.74 to be more exact), or per your CFR numbers, 126 - 140 dB at 1 meter (the standard distance to measure "loudness"). [a 29.74 dB difference would mean an approx. 944x in crease in "loudness" at the shorter distance vs the longer one.] (As point of reference: 110dB is max loudness in front row of heavy rock concert - louder than that and they get sued; 130 is generally taken as threshold of unbearable pain - translated: using NIOSH numbers, 126 dB causes irreversible hearing damage in approx. 2 secs; 140 dB in about 90 msec, ie, at 140 dB one goes to cover their ears to try to mitigate the pain, only to find that blood is already pouring out, and in all likelihood one never hears anything again... a basic working definition of: painfully loud.)


----------



## Acela150

battalion51 said:


> Since we're on the topic of audible alarms, am I the only one that thinks the electronic bells are potentially leading to more accidents? In the era of Quiet Zones where the bell is the only audible alarm of a passing train the electronic bells to me seem like they don't have the same volume output as the old fashioned bells. I know the electronic bells won't fail as often as a real bell, but it just seems like we're losing something with them.


I find the E-Bell to be louder then Mechanical Bells..


----------



## PerRock

either way there is an FRA mandated limit as to how quiet horns & bells can be, and if they're in use they meet the regulations.

peter


----------



## gmushial

Acela150 said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since we're on the topic of audible alarms, am I the only one that thinks the electronic bells are potentially leading to more accidents? In the era of Quiet Zones where the bell is the only audible alarm of a passing train the electronic bells to me seem like they don't have the same volume output as the old fashioned bells. I know the electronic bells won't fail as often as a real bell, but it just seems like we're losing something with them.
> 
> 
> 
> I find the E-Bell to be louder then Mechanical Bells..
Click to expand...

In theory eBells could be any arbitrary loudness (unlike a mechanical bell) - it's simply a question of how much power and how big of a transducer one is willing to throw at it... and given that any diesel-electric could be viewed as a multimegawatt generator on wheels, there should be no shortage in terms of power one could throw at the problem [or in the case of the -64 one should be able to pull enough power from the overhead lines, that there should be no limit to loudness].


----------



## afigg

Found this nugget in the July 2013 monthly report indicating that the ACS-64 testing is going smoothly. In the Chief Mechanical Officer report, there were 6 AEM-7DC units scheduled for overhauls in FY2013. 5 DC unit overhauls of were to be done by July, but only 4 have been overhauled. In the comments column, it states "Plan reduced due to Decommissioning Plan". That comment is not in the June monthly report.

With the capital spending cuts and the ACS-64's being delivered, Amtrak appears to have halted overhauls of the AEM-7DC units. The AEM-7AC and HHP-8 units are on schedule with their overhaul counts.

There are also cuts in the number of scheduled overhauls for Amfleet II diners (by 1), cab cars, Superliner II trans-dorms (by 1), Horizons with the comment "Due to budget reductions, this project is complete for the year - X cars less than the original plan".


----------



## Fan Railer

SuperStarRendon's catch of 602 heading through Hell Gate on its way to Boston today:


----------



## Fan Railer

602 is schedule to come back Friday.


----------



## Acela150

I'll be at BOS Friday hopefully I'll see it!


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> I'll be at BOS Friday hopefully I'll see it!


If I was there, I'd try to catch it at route 128 on the opposite platform. Last time, I believe on the trip back to Wilmington, it was cab leading - 602 trailing, but can't be sure if they'll do that again this time.


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> Found this nugget in the July 2013 monthly report indicating that the ACS-64 testing is going smoothly. In the Chief Mechanical Officer report, there were 6 AEM-7DC units scheduled for overhauls in FY2013. 5 DC unit overhauls of were to be done by July, but only 4 have been overhauled. In the comments column, it states "Plan reduced due to Decommissioning Plan". That comment is not in the June monthly report.
> 
> With the capital spending cuts and the ACS-64's being delivered, Amtrak appears to have halted overhauls of the AEM-7DC units. The AEM-7AC and HHP-8 units are on schedule with their overhaul counts.


Makes sense: the AEM-7DCs would be expected to be decomissioned first, as the ACS-64s are phased in.



> There are also cuts in the number of scheduled overhauls for Amfleet II diners (by 1), cab cars, Superliner II trans-dorms (by 1), Horizons with the comment "Due to budget reductions, this project is complete for the year - X cars less than the original plan".


This is unfortunate. I assume Amtrak is stockpiling cash to ride out the likely government shutdown in October (thanks to the antics of the House Republicans). Hopefully we'll see the overhauls restarted in November after a continuing resolution gets passed.


----------



## Acela150

Fan Railer said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be at BOS Friday hopefully I'll see it!
> 
> 
> 
> If I was there, I'd try to catch it at route 128 on the opposite platform. Last time, I believe on the trip back to Wilmington, it was cab leading - 602 trailing, but can't be sure if they'll do that again this time.
Click to expand...

I'm at BOS to catch the LSL to CHI. If I could I'd head to RTE or else where.


----------



## Acela150

Visual sighting of 603 puts it on 68. Just left ALB as if this typing. Still in sight. Foam away.

541.


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> Visual sighting of 603 puts it on 68. Just left ALB as if this typing. Still in sight. Foam away.
> 
> 541.


From SuperStarRendon again:



And 603 on 284 (from italiancanuck89:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2AwHemq0VQ


----------



## Fan Railer

Judging by this, 603 should be in Sunnyside at this hour:


----------



## Fan Railer

News from RR.net:

11:33 pm-"Extra AEM-7 938 with ACS-64 No. 603 and Cafe Car No. 43391 should be in NYP at the moment getting ready to leave to WIL. Left SSY about 20 mins ago or so."

11:38 pm -"Yup 603 is on track 13 getting ready to head down the road."


----------



## Fan Railer

Another one from Rendon... boy does he manage to get around XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE492zpL6CU - 603 @ NYP


----------



## gmushial

It sounds like the testing is going well. Any guesses as to when 602 and/or 603 will be put in actual service? Likewise: when such happens - will there be a subset of engineers that are ACS "qualified' and they'll be the only ones bidding on ACS runs, or, will the ACSs be similar enough to the AEM-7's that any engineer will be able to bid on ACS loco'd runs?


----------



## battalion51

They will likely be cycling all the Engineers in WAS North, PHL, HAR, NYP, NHV, and BOS through the training for the ACS if that hasn't occurred already. They'll all be running them in due time, no sense in having specialists for something that will be the fleet standard.


----------



## Fan Railer

gmushial said:


> It sounds like the testing is going well. Any guesses as to when 602 and/or 603 will be put in actual service? Likewise: when such happens - will there be a subset of engineers that are ACS "qualified' and they'll be the only ones bidding on ACS runs, or, will the ACSs be similar enough to the AEM-7's that any engineer will be able to bid on ACS loco'd runs?


IIRC, the first 5-6 locomotives will be split between the major depots on the NEC for regional engineer training... BOS, NYP, Phili, Wilmington, and WAS should all get one of the first 6 by the middle of October... expect EIS to be somewhere in the region of early to mid-November; in time for the Thanksgiving rush and extra long consists.


----------



## Fan Railer

From Chis Wizda:


----------



## Andrew

Fan Railer said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like the testing is going well. Any guesses as to when 602 and/or 603 will be put in actual service? Likewise: when such happens - will there be a subset of engineers that are ACS "qualified' and they'll be the only ones bidding on ACS runs, or, will the ACSs be similar enough to the AEM-7's that any engineer will be able to bid on ACS loco'd runs?
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC, the first 5-6 locomotives will be split between the major depots on the NEC for regional engineer training... BOS, NYP, Phili, Wilmington, and WAS should all get one of the first 6 by the middle of October... expect EIS to be somewhere in the region of early to mid-November; in time for the Thanksgiving rush and extra long consists.
Click to expand...


EIS for what?


----------



## Trogdor

EIS = Entry Into Service (as opposed to Environmental Impact Statement).


----------



## Fan Railer

Three images from Siemens showing 600 and 601 coupled together:


----------



## Shawn Ryu

Wheres that photo taken from?


----------



## MikefromCrete

Looks like the Pueblo, CO., test track.


----------



## Acela150

That is indeed TTCI.. No idea why they're still there. But if they show up on the East Coast with that paint, I'll flip!

Looking at the third photo it looks like 600 still has some testing wires on it.


----------



## bgiaquin

I would guess 600 & 601 are ready to head east.


----------



## Ryan

Based on?


----------



## Acela150

bgiaquin said:


> I would guess 600 & 601 are ready to head east.


Considering they're still some wires attached to 600, that is not likely. 603 headed south to PHL via NYP and ALB Friday. I was surprised how short of a period of time that 603 was tested for Climate Control. Septa had a new SL V go up to Canada for the same purpose. But it took almost a year for the testing to be completed.


----------



## bgiaquin

Acela150 said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess 600 & 601 are ready to head east.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering they're still some wires attached to 600, that is not likely. 603 headed south to PHL via NYP and ALB Friday. I was surprised how short of a period of time that 603 was tested for Climate Control. Septa had a new SL V go up to Canada for the same purpose. But it took almost a year for the testing to be completed.
Click to expand...

My mistake but based on everything I have seen and heard, testing has been highly successful so I just thought that it would be a safe guess.


----------



## Acela150

bgiaquin said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess 600 & 601 are ready to head east.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering they're still some wires attached to 600, that is not likely. 603 headed south to PHL via NYP and ALB Friday. I was surprised how short of a period of time that 603 was tested for Climate Control. Septa had a new SL V go up to Canada for the same purpose. But it took almost a year for the testing to be completed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake but based on everything I have seen and heard, testing has been highly successful so I just thought that it would be a safe guess.
Click to expand...

I can tell you this. When new trains are tested, they're are all kinds of wires on the locomotive, MU, EMU, Trainset. What have you it be. They put wires onto almost everything that has a function. Their aren't many wires on 600. So testing is at least winding down at TTCI. As far as testing on the NEC. We will hear something when a unit will go into service.​


----------



## bgiaquin

Acela150 said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess 600 & 601 are ready to head east.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering they're still some wires attached to 600, that is not likely. 603 headed south to PHL via NYP and ALB Friday. I was surprised how short of a period of time that 603 was tested for Climate Control. Septa had a new SL V go up to Canada for the same purpose. But it took almost a year for the testing to be completed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake but based on everything I have seen and heard, testing has been highly successful so I just thought that it would be a safe guess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can tell you this. When new trains are tested, they're are all kinds of wires on the locomotive, MU, EMU, Trainset. What have you it be. They put wires onto almost everything that has a function. Their aren't many wires on 600. So testing is at least winding down at TTCI. As far as testing on the NEC. We will hear something when a unit will go into service.​
Click to expand...

602 should be the first into service, followed by 603, 604, 601, and 600. My estimate is based off of logical thinking


----------



## MikefromCrete

bgiaquin said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess 600 & 601 are ready to head east.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering they're still some wires attached to 600, that is not likely. 603 headed south to PHL via NYP and ALB Friday. I was surprised how short of a period of time that 603 was tested for Climate Control. Septa had a new SL V go up to Canada for the same purpose. But it took almost a year for the testing to be completed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake but based on everything I have seen and heard, testing has been highly successful so I just thought that it would be a safe guess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can tell you this. When new trains are tested, they're are all kinds of wires on the locomotive, MU, EMU, Trainset. What have you it be. They put wires onto almost everything that has a function. Their aren't many wires on 600. So testing is at least winding down at TTCI. As far as testing on the NEC. We will hear something when a unit will go into service.​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 602 should be the first into service, followed by 603, 604, 601, and 600. My estimate is based off of logical thinking
Click to expand...


You've obviously never worked for a railroad. Logical thinking is often the last thing used in making decisions!


----------



## bgiaquin

MikefromCrete said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would guess 600 & 601 are ready to head east.
> 
> 
> 
> Considering they're still some wires attached to 600, that is not likely. 603 headed south to PHL via NYP and ALB Friday. I was surprised how short of a period of time that 603 was tested for Climate Control. Septa had a new SL V go up to Canada for the same purpose. But it took almost a year for the testing to be completed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake but based on everything I have seen and heard, testing has been highly successful so I just thought that it would be a safe guess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can tell you this. When new trains are tested, they're are all kinds of wires on the locomotive, MU, EMU, Trainset. What have you it be. They put wires onto almost everything that has a function. Their aren't many wires on 600. So testing is at least winding down at TTCI. As far as testing on the NEC. We will hear something when a unit will go into service.​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 602 should be the first into service, followed by 603, 604, 601, and 600. My estimate is based off of logical thinking
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You've obviously never worked for a railroad. Logical thinking is often the last thing used in making decisions!
Click to expand...

Well I do plan on working for the railroad so I guess I have to stop thinking logically!


----------



## jis

ACS-64 #605 is starting on its way east on Amtrak 6 departing EMY today (Oct 3 2013).


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> ACS-64 #605 is starting on its way east on Amtrak 6 departing EMY today (Oct 3 2013).


That is good news. With the shipment of #604 and now #605, Siemans and Amtrak are settling down into a steady production delivery process. Now we wait for news of the entry into revenue service.


----------



## bgiaquin

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 #605 is starting on its way east on Amtrak 6 departing EMY today (Oct 3 2013).
> 
> 
> 
> That is good news. With the shipment of #604 and now #605, Siemans and Amtrak are settling down into a steady production delivery process. Now we wait for news of the entry into revenue service.
Click to expand...

I think we will see 602 in revenue service by the beginning of November, or I hope so anyway.


----------



## jis

Apparently did not make it on today's 6. Perhaps tomorrow then....


----------



## Ryan

Leaving tomorrow means CHI Sunday and WAS Monday, or do they lay over in CHI for a day?


----------



## bgiaquin

Have 603 & 604 began testing yet?


----------



## Shawn Ryu

Once first two enters the service I guess thats the beginning of the end of Hippo?


----------



## battalion51

Shawn, the AEM-7DCs will be the first to go as the ACS-64s enter service. Followed by the AEM-7ACs, and the HHP-8s will be the last to go.


----------



## afigg

battalion51 said:


> Shawn, the AEM-7DCs will be the first to go as the ACS-64s enter service. Followed by the AEM-7ACs, and the HHP-8s will be the last to go.


Based on posts here and other rr forums, the order of retirement of the AEM-7ACs and HHP-8s may not be that cleanly structured. If 5 HHP-8s are out of service and parts are hard to get, the retirement order may be intermixed and driven by events. If an AC unit or HHP-8 unit needs costly repairs and enough ACS-64s are ready for revenue service, then the out of service unit may get sent off to the storage tracks.


----------



## battalion51

Fair point. Why sink a whole bunch of money into something you're about to discard?


----------



## Agent

Well here's a couple videos I wish I'd uploaded sooner. They show AMTK 603 on the _California Zephyr_ at Ottumwa, Iowa back on August 12. I'd tried to zoom in on as many details as I could as it was stopped at the station.

Another person that was there also shot their own video (Bonus points to whoever can spot me filming my videos on this video).

By the way, does anyone know it 605 made it onto a _Zephyr_ yet?


----------



## jis

Reports out of California on TO say it is scheduled to leave EMY on 6 today (10/6)


----------



## Agent

Thank you Mr. jis.

Here's #6(06) speeding though a crossing this morning with AMTK 605 east of Agency, Iowa. The train was running just 14 minutes late.


----------



## Acela150

14 Mins late?? Is that some kind of Joke??


----------



## Acela150

As an added question Will the ACS-64's be numbered upto 669 or 670? I'm not sure on that one.. I want to say 669.


----------



## MikefromCrete

I wonder if one will be numbered 666, or will they skip that?


----------



## MattW

MikefromCrete said:


> I wonder if one will be numbered 666, or will they skip that?


Well they have a Keystone train numbered 666 so they aren't shy about that number.


----------



## Acela150

Unless their is an extreme protest from the masses, 666 will be a ACS-64.


----------



## Acela150

Agent said:


> Thank you Mr. jis.
> 
> Here's #6(06) speeding though a crossing this morning with AMTK 605 east of Agency, Iowa. The train was running just 14 minutes late.



Agent, he was really hustling there. Maybe with AU you'll be able to catch all 70 ACS units!


----------



## ACS-64

Amtrak Cities Sprinters will be numbered (600-669) and HHP-8 (650-664) will be renumbered (680-694) as ACS-64 deliveries progress.


----------



## AlanB

Acela150 said:


> As an added question Will the ACS-64's be numbered upto 669 or 670? I'm not sure on that one.. I want to say 669.


Actually, rumor is that the last engine will be numbered 670 and that one number in the sequence will be skipped. Of course Amtrak could still change its mind during the delivery phase; but at least for now 670 is supposed to be the highest number.


----------



## ericr

AlanB said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As an added question Will the ACS-64's be numbered upto 669 or 670? I'm not sure on that one.. I want to say 669.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, rumor is that the last engine will be numbered 670 and that one number in the sequence will be skipped. Of course Amtrak could still change its mind during the delivery phase; but at least for now 670 is supposed to be the highest number.
Click to expand...

I can see them doing that to reduce vandalism. I know highways that are numbered 666 (or some variant thereof) tend to get their signs stolen quite frequently. Not saying that someone will steal a engine, maybe graffiti.


----------



## jis

Amtrak apparently had a steam generator car numbered 666

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=161538

which originally was a Diesel Engine:



Code:


          Railroad  Number     Type      Builder       B/N      B/D              Notes


          AMTRAK       666  E9B/S-G     EMD         20503      6/55   AMT 1916, 463; UP 963B


----------



## Acela150

ACS-64 said:


> Amtrak Cities Sprinters will be numbered (600-669) and HHP-8 (650-664) will be renumbered (680-694) as ACS-64 deliveries progress.


Thanks. But IF the HHP's last that long I can see the renumbering.. But the way things are going, it looks like AEM-7AC's will be the last of the current electrics..


----------



## NE933

jis said:


> Amtrak apparently had a steam generator car numbered 666
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=161538
> 
> which originally was a Diesel Engine:
> 
> Railroad Number Type Builder B/N B/D Notes
> 
> 
> AMTRAK 666 E9B/S-G EMD 20503 6/55 AMT 1916, 463; UP 963B


I reallly like the F40 # 230 in that Phase 2 paint behind it!!


----------



## Agent

Acela150 said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Mr. jis.
> 
> Here's #6(06) speeding though a crossing this morning with AMTK 605 east of Agency, Iowa. The train was running just 14 minutes late.
> 
> 
> 
> Agent, he was really hustling there. Maybe with AU you'll be able to catch all 70 ACS units!
Click to expand...

I've already missed 604, so I'll have go east if I want to see that one.

In the meantime, a couple more videos of 605 on the _California Zephyr_ have cropped up. This one was filmed in Batavia, Iowa:



Personally, I'm hoping someone will upload a video of 605 on the detour in Wyoming. Also, I haven't found any videos of it on the _Capitol Limited_ (if that's the train it took).


----------



## ACS-64

Heads Up

600 has finished testing at Pueblo, CO and plans are for it to head East on the Southwest Chief 4(11) from La Junta, CO. [Today's #4 originating in LAX, picking it up on the 12th, into Chicago on the 13th]


----------



## jis

ACS-64 said:


> Heads Up
> 
> 600 has finished testing at Pueblo, CO and plans are for it to head East on the Southwest Chief 4(11) from La Junta, CO. [Today's #4 originating in LAX, picking it up on the 12th, into Chicago on the 13th]


There is a report on TO that the special from Pueblo to LaJunta passed Avondale, and it also had a long string of Superliners in it. I wonder where the Superliners came from. The whole lot will apparently be hooked onto the SWC at La Junta


----------



## Acela150

Possibly testing the ACS with SL's???


----------



## bgiaquin

Acela150 said:


> Possibly testing the ACS with SL's???


That would be a sight to see!


----------



## Acela150

Ha! Yeah it would!!


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> Possibly testing the ACS with SL's???


I don't see what the purpose of that would be. Unless they wanted confirmation that a ACS-64 could pull Superliners as a test for the possibility of using ACS-64s to pull bi-level corridor cars on the CA HSR tracks someday.

The thought occurred to me when I was posting in the AAF/FEC thread. Does Amtrak need formal FRA approval before placing the ACS-64 in revenue service, well, if the basic approvals have not already been granted. Most of the FRA staff is on furlough with only the safety inspectors and accident investigators working. Could the government shutdown delay the deployment of the ACS-64s into service if there is no one to sign off on the test reports and grant approval for revenue service?


----------



## ne52

Was in DC yesterday at 3:30. Sitting in the yards north of the station.


----------



## jis

ne52 said:


> Was in DC yesterday at 3:30. Sitting in the yards north of the station.


Was not the #600, since it is enroute and arriving in Chicago today by train #4. It was another ACS-64 in DC.


----------



## bgiaquin

jis said:


> ne52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was in DC yesterday at 3:30. Sitting in the yards north of the station.
> 
> 
> 
> Was not the #600, since it is enroute and arriving in Chicago today by train #4. It was another ACS-64 in DC.
Click to expand...

Probably either 603 or 604


----------



## afigg

bgiaquin said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ne52 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was in DC yesterday at 3:30. Sitting in the yards north of the station.
> 
> 
> 
> Was not the #600, since it is enroute and arriving in Chicago today by train #4. It was another ACS-64 in DC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Probably either 603 or 604
Click to expand...

Or #605 if it came in on the Capitol Limited. Did not see any reports of #605 being moved on the CL, but we are approaching the point where people are paying less attention to the deliveries and equipment moves.


----------



## Agent

Here's a video of the _Southwest Chief_ at Rutledge, Missouri with AMTK 600 and a lot of Superliners.


----------



## Ryan

18 Superliners, that's awesome!!!


----------



## Acela150

At least they changed the paint!!

But that is an awesome train! Long and looks sleek!


----------



## ACS-64

ACS-64 Locations:

600- Chicago (Arrived October 13th via OAK/DEN/Pueblo/LAJ)

601- Pueblo, CO (Arrived June 8th via OAK/DEN)

602- NEC (Arrived July 1st via OAK/CHI/WAS)

603- NEC (Arrived September 20th via OAK/CHI/ALB/NFL/Hornell,NY/NFL/ALB/NYP/PHL)

604- NEC (Arrived September 3rd via OAK/CHI/WAS)

605- NEC (Arrived October 10th via OAK/CHI/WAS)


----------



## NE933

Ryan said:


> 18 Superliners, that's awesome!!!


And sad, that 18 car consists no longer run, and we all know that such trains ran in the not too distant past. With equipment and product awareness this could be a mainstay once again.


----------



## battalion51

My guess for the reasoning on making the move of the ACS-64 with all of the Superliner cars is braking power. Its a lot easier to run a train with two live motors, a dead motor, and a pile of Superliners than it is to just run light power. There's a reason why light power is restricted to lower speeds than an engine with train.


----------



## engr08

does anyone know.where the 603 is? Someone told me it's out doing field testing. Also did these motors.test on the Harrisburg line?


----------



## Acela150

I saw a photo of it sitting in the Wilmington Shops. A photo of 602 looking like it was about to do a run or had just come back from one.


----------



## Nathanael

NE933 said:


> And sad, that 18 car consists no longer run, and we all know that such trains ran in the not too distant past. With equipment and product awareness this could be a mainstay once again.


Doing so when most of the stations are short-platformed isn't such a great idea, due to the need to stop the train twice ("double spot" is the term I'm told).
That, of course, raises the question of platform lengths across the system.

Syracuse, NY isn't long enough to board the entire 13-car Lake Shore Limited -- not even all the passenger cars at once, let alone the baggage cars and locomotives -- and Syracuse has got a pretty long platform. I know some stations like Chicago Union and NY Penn have extremely long platforms, but most stations don't. For instance, I think 18 cars on the SW Chief would overrun the platforms at Albuquerque!


----------



## battalion51

It all comes down to how trains are loaded. Longer, heavier trains are more likely to be an issue for Long Distance Services than it is for Regionals. For example, when the new Viewliners come online you could be looking at trains of 12 cars on a regular basis for the Silver Meteor (Bag Car, Bag/Dorm, 3 Sleepers, Diner, Lounge, 5 Coaches).


----------



## BrianPR3

quick question are these engines dual mode like the alp 46A and 45dp?


----------



## Ryan

No, electric only.


----------



## jis

ALP 46A is not dual mode. It is pure electric.


----------



## BrianPR3

jis said:


> ALP 46A is not dual mode. It is pure electric.


ahhh what is the difference between that and an alp 46


----------



## Acela150

BrianPR3 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ALP 46A is not dual mode. It is pure electric.
> 
> 
> 
> ahhh what is the difference between that and an alp 46
Click to expand...

Horsepower and Max Speed..


----------



## bgiaquin

So right now 600 & 605 are almost to DC. Has 601 left pueblo yet?


----------



## engr08

bgiaquin said:


> So right now 600 & 605 are almost to DC. Has 601 left pueblo yet?


It's funny that you say that, the 600 and 601 went to Cali to get decal in the normal amtrak livery. Unit no. 600 is in the dc and I guess the 601 shouldn't be to far behind. I'll find out what's good with the 601.


----------



## battalion51

Acela150 said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ALP 46A is not dual mode. It is pure electric.
> 
> 
> 
> ahhh what is the difference between that and an alp 46
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Horsepower and Max Speed..
Click to expand...

The ALP46A also doesn't have a diesel engine in it. The ALP46A also has two cabs which doesn't require it to be wyed to be tied on to a train. The ALP45s have a diesel engine and a single cab.


----------



## Acela150

battalion51 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ALP 46A is not dual mode. It is pure electric.
> 
> 
> 
> ahhh what is the difference between that and an alp 46
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Horsepower and Max Speed..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ALP46A also doesn't have a diesel engine in it. The ALP46A also has two cabs which doesn't require it to be wyed to be tied on to a train. The ALP45s have a diesel engine and a single cab.
Click to expand...

The two cabs would have made the ALP-45DP to heavy for NEC max weight standards. How they made it with a diesel engine and an electric motor and still beat the NEC weight requirements beats me..


----------



## jis

NEC does not have any special weight requirements other than the standard 286klb on four axles. The ALP 45s are just about as heavy as the MARC MPI 36s.

But the original question asked was what is the difference between the ALP46 and ALP46A and Acela150s answer was correct, as both of those are pure electrics, the only difference being power, reactive effort and max speed, and internally the electronics, the 46A essentially being based on the TRAXX platform.

The electricals and traction packs in the 45DPs are similar to those in the 46As. But in addition they have two high speed diesel prime movers which are controlled by power demand.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> NEC does not have any special weight requirements other than the standard 286klb on four axles. The ALP 45s are just about as heavy as the MARC MPI 36s.


Thought the NEC had a weight rule.. But I heard that a long time ago.


----------



## Acela150

603 Reported in Penn Coach yard hooked to 6 cars and 513.


----------



## Nathanael

battalion51 said:


> It all comes down to how trains are loaded. Longer, heavier trains are more likely to be an issue for Long Distance Services than it is for Regionals. For example, when the new Viewliners come online you could be looking at trains of 12 cars on a regular basis for the Silver Meteor (Bag Car, Bag/Dorm, 3 Sleepers, Diner, Lounge, 5 Coaches).


FWIW I think most major stations, and even a lot of minor ones, have platforms long enough to handle 11 or 12 cars without difficulty. 18 cars is another matter, which is why I reacted to the original comment about 18-car trains. We may see more 12-car or even 14 car trains, but 18-car trains would be hampered by platform lengths.

(By "major stations", I mean stations which have enough on-offs coming from and going to enough different destinations that you will generally have to load or unload nearly every car, no matter how the conductor has arranged the passengers. Syracuse is major by this definition. I suppose you could manage 18-car trains pretty easily if 6 of the cars were sealed "end-to-end" cars, and didn't need to platform -- but apart from the Auto Train, most routes are filled with end-to-middle and middle-to-middle passengers.)


----------



## NE933

I've read about the logistic problems of running longer consists, the biggest one is double stopping, which slows the schedule and blocks grade crossing roads for longer amount of time. But longer consist is going to be the only service expansion, if any, on the Long Distance plate. A train with more cars carries more passengers which enables it to cover its fixed expenses. I don't think we'll see a second Empire Builder, California Zephyr, or Coast Startlight right away. Here on the East Coast, the Palmetto will likely convert back into an overnight Silver Palm to make for a 3rd frequency, but that's because new Viewliners are around the corner (we hope).

I remember riding these 18 car behemoths back in the day, and not all stations were double stopped. It will have to be an accepted jagged pill, until ridership goes up enough to justify an additional frequency.

And about 603 being in Philly, they should move it to Strasburg for a photo shoot next to the E60 #603 at the railroad museum.


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

NE933 said:


> I've read about the logistic problems of running longer consists, the biggest one is double stopping, which slows the schedule and blocks grade crossing roads for longer amount of time. But longer consist is going to be the only service expansion, if any, on the Long Distance plate. A train with more cars carries more passengers which enables it to cover its fixed expenses. I don't think we'll see a second Empire Builder, California Zephyr, or Coast Startlight right away. Here on the East Coast, the Palmetto will likely convert back into an overnight Silver Palm to make for a 3rd frequency, but that's because new Viewliners are around the corner (we hope).
> 
> I remember riding these 18 car behemoths back in the day, and not all stations were double stopped. It will have to be an accepted jagged pill, until ridership goes up enough to justify an additional frequency.
> 
> And about 603 being in Philly, they should move it to Strasburg for a photo shoot next to the E60 #603 at the railroad museum.


You could do longer trains in the 18 car range if WAS, NYP, BOS etc can handle 18, just have the cars that don't platform at the other stations be only for those stations as a destination. i.e. separate passengers by destination so their car will platform at their destination. If Amtrak can setup the train so that only certain doors open at certain stations automatically. If it could be set up where the conductor could open the first half of the train from the front end and the AC open the back half from the back end of the train. So along the route the conductor only operate the doors and at WAS, NYP and BOS both the conductor and AC open the whole train.


----------



## battalion51

AFAIK, cutting out the automatic doors requires each car to be cut out individually by flipping a switch in the electrical locker. Not impossible to do even with today's equipment. I don't believe there is a way you can separate the doors from being trainlined by two different locations, could be wrong though.


----------



## OBS

battalion51 said:


> AFAIK, cutting out the automatic doors requires each car to be cut out individually by flipping a switch in the electrical locker. Not impossible to do even with today's equipment. I don't believe there is a way you can separate the doors from being trainlined by two different locations, could be wrong though.


You would have to "key open" the doors from the middle, ie you can key in one direction only if you wish, to open just front of keyed door or behind the keyed door.

You can isolate individual doors with switch in electrical locker, but it has been my casual experience that the switches don't work properly about 15-20% of the time.


----------



## battalion51

You're right. I always forget about that option, don't see that many Amfleet Is...


----------



## Nathanael

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> You could do longer trains in the 18 car range if WAS, NYP, BOS etc can handle 18, just have the cars that don't platform at the other stations be only for those stations as a destination. i.e. separate passengers by destination so their car will platform at their destination.


Unfortunately most routes have lots of middle-to-end traffic, making it impossible to run more than one, maybe two, "express cars" successfully. Critical stations like Syracuse can't handle 18 cars and would require double stops (actually, I suspect 18 would block the switches at Syracuse and CSX would probably prohibit it).

At some point the double stops start really wreaking havoc on the timetable. In peak season, I've seen the Lake Shore Limited stop twice at Bryan, Ohio and twice at Erie, PA (*not* popular stations), presumably because there were passengers from both NY and Boston. It is not good for the timetable to stop twice at nearly every single station west of Albany and east of Chicago.

On the NEC 18-car *Acelas* may be viable by simply skipping the shorter-platform stations and letting people connect to a Regional. Outside the NEC, that's not an option.

As a result, outside the NEC, I expect most trains to max out at 11-14 cars before Amtrak starts seriously considering "second sections". For the Florida trains, there already are three trains. Within a few years we may reach the point where the Lake Shore Limited really needs to be two trains (perhaps simply one to Boston and one to NY, perhaps something else).

Now, there are probably some situations where you could run a few "express cars" successfully -- but only a few. If you review the Performance Improvement Plans for the long-distance trains, you'll see the breakdown of most popular city pairs. A number of the trains can support, maybe, one or two "sealed" sleeper cars which only open at the endpoints or a few critical middle points. Even there the critical stations may not have long enough platforms. For instance, the California Zephyr can probably support one "sealed" Chicago-Denver sleeper (no more!). If Buffalo, Syracuse, and Rochester had long enough platforms, the Lake Shore Limited might support several "express cars" -- but they don't!

For this reason I think the typical 10- to 12-car platform is going to provide a practical limit to train lengths -- trains may get a couple of cars longer than that by squeezing on a couple of "express" cars, but we're not going to see 18-car trains unless we see 16-car platforms at most stations. And we won't see that because Amtrak isn't asking for platforms that long to be built when stations are renovated.


----------



## Fan Railer

Another case against lengthening the NEC trains on a regular basis (like outside of the holiday rush periods) is the lack of existing rolling stock to lengthen trains with. Also, it doesn't look like Amtrak is going to get funding to "grow" its fleet in the foreseeable future; only enough to replace it on a one to one basis, so we're not really going to see any train lengthening outside of the holiday rush anytime soon.


----------



## Acela150

Why are we even talking about an 18 car train.. The longest you see now a days is about 11 cars and that's during the Thanksgiving rush. No need to even think about an 18 car train.


----------



## engr08

can we get back on the topic which is the acs64


----------



## jis

Fearless prediction..... The only place where there will be lots of 18 car passenger trains in the US is in the AU pages full of fertile fantasies, at least for the foreseeable future. If you want to see 18 or more car passenger trains go to India or somewhere like that.

Meanwhile let's get bak to ACS-64s and their current dispositions.


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> Why are we even talking about an 18 car train.. The longest you see now a days is about 11 cars and that's during the Thanksgiving rush. No need to even think about an 18 car train.


I don't know. The standard for the newer stations and future upgraded stations on the NEC that Amtrak stops at appear to be 12 car platforms. BWI, Newark Airport have 12 car long platforms. Trenton has 12 car long platforms. The 2010 plan for the Newark DE station calls for 800' long high level platforms, but where the platform could be lengthened to 1000'+, ie 12 cars. Even 30th St station has 14 car long platforms and I seriously doubt that there are any plans to lengthen those.

By all signs, it appears that Amtrak has no plans to ever run Regionals or future HSR trainsets longer than 12 cars on the NEC with 10 cars as a practical current constraint because of the stations with 9-10 car long platforms. The exceptions would be some LD trains which only stop at the "legacy" major city stations with very long platforms and special trains. They are not going to doublestop on the NEC except on rare occasions. Ok, maybe the combined LSL is rather long, but the LSL is not going to be pulled by an ACS-64 anytime soon so it is not relevant to this thread.

So, yes, let's get this conversation back to the ACS-64. Which will be used to pull 9-10 car long Regionals with 12 car long Regionals as a future option if Amtrak ever has enough coach cars to go around. So, on the ACS-64, if Siemens has ramped up to a twice a month schedule, any word on when will #606 be shipped east?


----------



## bgiaquin

afigg said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are we even talking about an 18 car train.. The longest you see now a days is about 11 cars and that's during the Thanksgiving rush. No need to even think about an 18 car train.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. The standard for the newer stations and future upgraded stations on the NEC that Amtrak stops at appear to be 12 car platforms. BWI, Newark Airport have 12 car long platforms. Trenton has 12 car long platforms. The 2010 plan for the Newark DE station calls for 800' long high level platforms, but where the platform could be lengthened to 1000'+, ie 12 cars. Even 30th St station has 14 car long platforms and I seriously doubt that there are any plans to lengthen those.
> 
> By all signs, it appears that Amtrak has no plans to ever run Regionals or future HSR trainsets longer than 12 cars on the NEC with 10 cars as a practical current constraint because of the stations with 9-10 car long platforms. The exceptions would be some LD trains which only stop at the "legacy" major city stations with very long platforms and special trains. They are not going to doublestop on the NEC except on rare occasions. Ok, maybe the combined LSL is rather long, but the LSL is not going to be pulled by an ACS-64 anytime soon so it is not relevant to this thread.
> 
> So, yes, let's get this conversation back to the ACS-64. Which will be used to pull 9-10 car long Regionals with 12 car long Regionals as a future option if Amtrak ever has enough coach cars to go around. So, on the ACS-64, if Siemens has ramped up to a twice a month schedule, any word on when will #606 be shipped east?
Click to expand...

Is 606 even built yet?


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are we even talking about an 18 car train.. The longest you see now a days is about 11 cars and that's during the Thanksgiving rush. No need to even think about an 18 car train.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. The standard for the newer stations and future upgraded stations on the NEC that Amtrak stops at appear to be 12 car platforms. BWI, Newark Airport have 12 car long platforms. Trenton has 12 car long platforms. The 2010 plan for the Newark DE station calls for 800' long high level platforms, but where the platform could be lengthened to 1000'+, ie 12 cars. Even 30th St station has 14 car long platforms and I seriously doubt that there are any plans to lengthen those.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tidbit of information about Philadelphia station. That puts a pretty hard limit on train length, since no train is going to skip Philadelphia. Off the NEC, information from the fiasco with the Miami station and Amtrak's requests for platform length in Denver and St. Paul (~1200-1300 ft) indicate that Amtrak expects to see, at a maximum, trains which are 15 cars with locomotives (or 13 without), and that's including private car and seasonal traffic. I'm not sure how this turned into a topic on train and platform length, but I'd kind of like a topic on train and platform lengths... it's interesting... seems like nobody has made a database of platform lengths, and it would be terribly interesting.


----------



## Nathanael

To keep going off topic, after the ACS-64s have replaced all the AEM-7s and HHP-8, the oldest locomotives in Amtrak's fleet apart from switchers will be the NY-Albany dual-modes. The fleet of 18 is barely enough to support the existing service, and so I expect they will be the next priority for replacement.


----------



## Andrew

Nathanael said:


> To keep going off topic, after the ACS-64s have replaced all the AEM-7s and HHP-8, the oldest locomotives in Amtrak's fleet apart from switchers will be the NY-Albany dual-modes. The fleet of 18 is barely enough to support the existing service, and so I expect they will be the next priority for replacement.


Is the ALP45DP Locomotive a sufficient replacement?


----------



## afigg

bgiaquin said:


> Is 606 even built yet?


Looking back in this thread, #605 was in Emeryville, ready to be moved east on the CZ on October 3. It was probably moved from the Siemens plant, a day or two before that. Depending on where Siemens is in ramping up to the 2 a month projected production rate, I would expect that #606 is mostly built or nearly completed. If #606 ships this week, then we know that Siemens is getting close to delivering 2 a month and the testing has been going very smoothly.


----------



## Fan Railer

Andrew said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> To keep going off topic, after the ACS-64s have replaced all the AEM-7s and HHP-8, the oldest locomotives in Amtrak's fleet apart from switchers will be the NY-Albany dual-modes. The fleet of 18 is barely enough to support the existing service, and so I expect they will be the next priority for replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the ALP45DP Locomotive a sufficient replacement?
Click to expand...

From a technical standpoint, if you replace the pantograph system with a third rail pickup system on the ALP-45DP, then yes, it would, in theory work. However, for a dual mode replacement of the P32AC-DM, I'm expecting something that comes out of either EMD or Siemens engineering. Amtrak isn't going to be playing around with Bombardier for a while.


----------



## battalion51

Nathanael said:


> To keep going off topic, after the ACS-64s have replaced all the AEM-7s and HHP-8, the oldest locomotives in Amtrak's fleet apart from switchers will be the NY-Albany dual-modes. The fleet of 18 is barely enough to support the existing service, and so I expect they will be the next priority for replacement.


Not so much. The P-32-8s are older having been introduced in 1991 IIRC. While there are some that act primarily as switchers in places like Sanford and Miami, there are others that are working regularly on the road out of places like Philadelphia and Chicago. The P-40s are also older having been introduced in 1993. Now, the P-40s did spend a few years in storage, but I'd be willing to guess that the P-40s still probably have more miles on them since they work on long haul trains, whereas the P-32 AC-DMs are pretty much captive to short haul service.


----------



## AlanB

Fan Railer said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> To keep going off topic, after the ACS-64s have replaced all the AEM-7s and HHP-8, the oldest locomotives in Amtrak's fleet apart from switchers will be the NY-Albany dual-modes. The fleet of 18 is barely enough to support the existing service, and so I expect they will be the next priority for replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the ALP45DP Locomotive a sufficient replacement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From a technical standpoint, if you replace the pantograph system with a third rail pickup system on the ALP-45DP, then yes, it would, in theory work. However, for a dual mode replacement of the P32AC-DM, I'm expecting something that comes out of either EMD or Siemens engineering. Amtrak isn't going to be playing around with Bombardier for a while.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be as simple as just adding third rail shoes, you need different transformers and converters. You're going from thousands of AC kilovots with a pantograph to 750 volts DC with a third rail.

However, all of that is academic, since there is nothing in place that currently would stop an ALP45DP from operating on the Empire Corridor. The Empire connection tunnel into Penn is also wired with catenary. Besides, even in diesel mode with the current P32's, they don't switch from diesel to third rail until they're out in the light of day between 9th & 10th Avenues. And going to ALB, they turn on the diesel in that same area, most engineers don't seem to operate using third rail power in the EC Tunnel.


----------



## Blackwolf

AlanB said:


> And going to ALB, they turn on the diesel in that same area, most engineers don't seem to operate using third rail power in the EC Tunnel.


I never quite understood that. Why did Amtrak even electrify the tunnel with both catenary and 3rd rail if the engineers just move right along under diesel power anyway?


----------



## AlanB

Blackwolf said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> And going to ALB, they turn on the diesel in that same area, most engineers don't seem to operate using third rail power in the EC Tunnel.
> 
> 
> 
> I never quite understood that. Why did Amtrak even electrify the tunnel with both catenary and 3rd rail if the engineers just move right along under diesel power anyway?
Click to expand...

To give them the more time to make the cutover, plus I'm sure that they hoped it would keep the smoke down in the tunnel. But I think that the engineers don't quite like the performance of the P32 when operating off the third rail, so they try to stay on diesel for as long as possible.


----------



## afigg

Short video of #603 going through Downingtown PA on October 20. The video was taken from the platform where the train passes so close by the camera, you have to freeze frame the video to confirm that there was an ACS-64 in the consist. Anyway, confirms that ACS-64 test runs have been on the eastern Keystone, not just the NEC.


----------



## Acela150

Fan Railer said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> To keep going off topic, after the ACS-64s have replaced all the AEM-7s and HHP-8, the oldest locomotives in Amtrak's fleet apart from switchers will be the NY-Albany dual-modes. The fleet of 18 is barely enough to support the existing service, and so I expect they will be the next priority for replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the ALP45DP Locomotive a sufficient replacement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm expecting something that comes out of either EMD or Siemens engineering.
Click to expand...

EMD has been out of the passenger locomotive business for quite a while. They wanted to focus on the competition with GE in the Freight Locomotive industry.

Keep in mind that the P32AC-DM runs mostly between NYP and ALB. With one or two going to BFX and one going to RUT on a daily basis. No idea how many of the 18 are in use on a daily basis. They aren't stretched mileage wise such as the AEM-7's are. The only real thing Amtrak should be worried about right now as far as Road Power goes is the ACS. Since the past two major diesel locomotives have come out for Amtrak have been GE's. Surprisingly I don't see that changing any time soon. I don't think MPI can produce a Diesel capable of pulling a 10-12 car train for two days straight. Laying over for a few hours, then going back east. The only problem GE has is the engines turbo chargers are known for spitting fire and catching fire. I believe an NS Dash 9 had a Turbo Charger fire a couple days ago in Ohio. Engine failures happen quite a bit now as well. Which is something Amtrak should consider as well as GE.


----------



## engr08

Can Siemens produce a diesel locomotive?


----------



## Fan Railer

engr08 said:


> Can Siemens produce a diesel locomotive?


yes. why would they not be able to?


----------



## Acela150

Cause siemens produces mostly electric units.. I would actually put some doubt into siemens ability to build a diesel unit. Not a much, but enough.


----------



## jis

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/kowloon/kowloon8.html


----------



## Blackwolf

jis said:


> http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/kowloon/kowloon8.html


Pretty much looks like a diesel ACS-64. Likely no coincidence, that.


----------



## Acela150

Strange lookin' unit. But if it works, I'd be happy.


----------



## PRR 60

What is often called a Diesel locomotive is primarily an electric locomotive. The diesel engine is simply a means to generate electricity to power the electric traction system and motors. General Electric is not unlike Siemens - primarily an electric equipment company.


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> EMD has been out of the passenger locomotive business for quite a while. They wanted to focus on the competition with GE in the Freight Locomotive industry.


EMD would be surprised to find that they are still out of the passenger locomotive business. Here is their 2 page flyer on the EMD F125, their 125 mph candidate for the Midwest & CA Next Gen diesel locomotive order. According to the wikipedia EMD F125 entry, Metrolink has placed an order for 10 units with 10 options.

I should point out that this is a thread on the ACS-64. We have threads on the Next Gen diesel RFP and bid process that is underway which are more suitable to discussing P-32 and P-42 replacements.


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> EMD has been out of the passenger locomotive business for quite a while. They wanted to focus on the competition with GE in the Freight Locomotive industry.
> 
> 
> 
> EMD would be surprised to find that they are still out of the passenger locomotive business. Here is their 2 page flyer on the EMD F125, their 125 mph candidate for the Midwest & CA Next Gen diesel locomotive order. According to the wikipedia EMD F125 entry, Metrolink has placed an order for 10 units with 10 options.
Click to expand...

Last I had heard this was a while ago, was EMD quit making passenger locomotives to focus on freight units.


----------



## jis

As far as I can tell, it is GE which does not have a new passenger locomotive in its stable at this moment. That is not to say they could not spin one up in short order, but the last one they did basically used European trucks (from Krupp Verkehrstechnik currently part of Siemens Mobility) and European monocoque carbody. So it is not like it was really an all GE in house thing either.

Incidentally our guide at the Amtrak Chicago Locomotive Facility consistently overstated the weight of the P42 as some odd trumped up 300klb plus number which has nothing to do with reality. Actually they weigh something around 268klb.


----------



## Acela150

Mechanics don't know the weight of their own equipment?? Serious?


----------



## AlanB

Acela150 said:


> Mechanics don't know the weight of their own equipment?? Serious?


He wasn't a mechanic, he was the safety officer at the shops. And I'm sure he was just rounding up to make things easier to remember.

In fact, based upon some of what he said, I don't think he truly realized that he was speaking to a group of railfans.


----------



## bgiaquin

Acela150 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> EMD has been out of the passenger locomotive business for quite a while. They wanted to focus on the competition with GE in the Freight Locomotive industry.
> 
> 
> 
> EMD would be surprised to find that they are still out of the passenger locomotive business. Here is their 2 page flyer on the EMD F125, their 125 mph candidate for the Midwest & CA Next Gen diesel locomotive order. According to the wikipedia EMD F125 entry, Metrolink has placed an order for 10 units with 10 options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Last I had heard this was a while ago, was EMD quit making passenger locomotives to focus on freight units.
Click to expand...

Well that obviously is not true anymore.


----------



## Acela150

AlanB said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mechanics don't know the weight of their own equipment?? Serious?
> 
> 
> 
> He wasn't a mechanic, he was the safety officer at the shops. And I'm sure he was just rounding up to make things easier to remember.
> 
> In fact, based upon some of what he said, I don't think he truly realized that he was speaking to a group of railfans.
Click to expand...

How many of the AU'ers corrected him?


----------



## battalion51

Don't forget though, that just because EMD or GE isn't the end manufacturer of a unit that they aren't supplying components. For example, the MPI MPXpress series which has been tremendously popular with commuter agencies (MARC, VRE, Metra, SunRail, CalTrain, Sounder, Metrolink, RailRunner, GO Transit, FrontRunner, NorthStar, MBTA) all have EMD Prime Movers in them. Likewise, MPIs HSP46 series which is being built (at least initially) for MBTA has a GE GEVO Prime Mover in it.


----------



## jis

Things get really mixed up these days:


Alstom PL42 has EMD 16-710G3B-T1, V16
Bombardier ALP45DP has 2x Caterpillar 3512C HD
EMD F125 has Caterpillar C 175-20 (note EMD does not use EMD engine and Caterpillar owns EMD)
MPI MP36-PH 3S, 3C has EMD 16-645F3B

MPI MP40-PH 3C has EMD 16-710G3B-T2

MPI MP32PH-Q has EMD 645E3

Seimens Vectron Diesel has MTU 16V 4000 R84
Actually, the old EMD prime movers are now built only for specific orders, other than 710s for use in some SD60 models. The direction appears to be to move over to use Caterpillar engines except perhaps in high end heavy haulage diesels. The GP series has already done so apparently.


----------



## Guest

battalion51 said:


> Not so much. The P-32-8s are older having been introduced in 1991 IIRC. While there are some that act primarily as switchers in places like Sanford and Miami, there are others that are working regularly on the road out of places like Philadelphia and Chicago. The P-40s are also older having been introduced in 1993. Now, the P-40s did spend a few years in storage, but I'd be willing to guess that the P-40s still probably have more miles on them since they work on long haul trains, whereas the P-32 AC-DMs are pretty much captive to short haul service.


Oooh, I forgot about the revived P-40s. I did not know that the P-32-8s were still in road service, either... they'll probably be replaced by the 125 mph diesels being ordered by the Midwest consortium, though.


----------



## bgiaquin

Lets get back on topic. Any more 64s out of Sacramento yet?


----------



## Acela150

bgiaquin said:


> Lets get back on topic. Any more 64s out of Sacramento yet?


You'd know by now.


----------



## bgiaquin

606 should be ready to go east soon.


----------



## battalion51

Its possible they may have briefly paused production while the current units are testing. Whatever bugs that they're shaking out now will need to be resolved, why build more things with bugs until all the testing is complete?


----------



## engr08

603 is in ny


----------



## Big Iron

I saw one in PHL on 11/3, I didn't catch the #. Tucked in between two p-42's.


----------



## jis

It was 603 in Philly over the weekend.


----------



## engr08

Big Iron said:


> I saw one in PHL on 11/3, I didn't catch the #. Tucked in between two p-42's.


That was the 603 you saw, they recently finsh the training in Philadelphia. Now that motor resides in N.Y. for a couple of weeks so engineers and mechanical can get familiarized with it.


----------



## Acela150

Any news on when one unit might be put into service?? :unsure:


----------



## engr08

Acela150 said:


> Any news on when one unit might be put into service?? :unsure:


I heard by thanksgiving but please don't quote me on that.


----------



## Acela150

I would hope that they put at least one unit in service by then. Considering they use all available power and cars.


----------



## ACS-64

606 conveyed from Siemens today. Expect it to be eastbound on the Zephyr Saturday November 9th.


----------



## Agent

ACS-64 said:


> 606 conveyed from Siemens today. Expect it to be eastbound on the Zephyr Saturday November 9th.


Thank you.

Leaving California on train #6(09) would have it going through Denver on the 10th and arriving in Chicago on Monday the 11th.

And then if it is going on the _Capitol Limited_ to Washington D.C., it will leave Chicago on Tuesday the 12th and arrive in D.C. on Wednesday the 13th.

Did I get that right?


----------



## engr08

603 is in Sunnyside.


----------



## jis

engr08 said:


> 603 is in Sunnyside.


Hasn't it been there since last Monday or so?


----------



## engr08

jis said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 603 is in Sunnyside.
> 
> 
> 
> Hasn't it been there since last Monday or so?
Click to expand...

No the 603 was sitting just.outside Penn station in a layup yard. Now is.at the engine house probably for.mechanical training.


----------



## jis

Ah! Got it! Thanks.


----------



## engr08

Just a quick update if any of you guys are.wondering.where these motors are

600- in Wilmington shops

601- still in Sacramento

602- at Wilmington shops hooked up to some amfleet cars and the.953

604- sitting In ivy city yard in Washington

605- in Boston

606-enroute via train 6, someone sent a picture.of.it.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Acela150 said:


> I would hope that they put at least one unit in service by then.
> 
> Considering they use all available power and cars.


Main thing is to be sure, absolutely sure, there won't be 

some mess-up covered on the evening news -- and in 

an endless loop over the 4-day weekend on Faux News.

But if one unit is available, and confidence is 100%, then

the timing should be up to the P.R. Dept.

I'm not a professional in TV news. But I have a hunch that a

Thanksgiving inaugural would work well. The local news

outlets along the NEC would be handed a photogenic,

feel-good news item, requiring one crew of one person

holding the camera and another one with good hair holding

the mic and chattering about the new engines.

The local stations could even be given a prerecorded, ahem,

"video press release" including a snip of Boardman citing

facts, and thereby taking some load off the good-hair

reporters assigned to the story. 

Such an item could run on Thursday or Friday or Saturday,

depending on if the competition was running the story and

how. The cable news channels could run a 'new engine'

story as well. Send out different version of the "video

press release" -- one with Boardman, one with Amtrak's 

current Board chair Cascia, one with ex-chair Carper, 

one with Secty of Transportation -- so different news outlets 

would have different stuff in their packages. One video 

press release could contain footage from the Sacramento 

factory. Another could have footage of the testing in Pueblo,

another concentrates on acceleration, another looks at 

energy recycling. One could point out that the new 

locomotives along with the small order for Viewliner

cars will cut costs and upgrade service on the long 

distance trains that use the NEC.

But I don't know if Amtrak has the bodies or the budget

to spoon feed the media the way it needs to be done.


----------



## jis

engr08 said:


> Just a quick update if any of you guys are.wondering.where these motors are
> 
> 600- in Wilmington shops
> 
> 601- still in Sacramento
> 
> 602- at Wilmington shops hooked up to some amfleet cars and the.953
> 
> 604- sitting In ivy city yard in Washington
> 
> 605- in Boston
> 
> 606-enroute via train 6, someone sent a picture.of.it.


Wasn't 601 in Pueblo at one point? Or am I remembering wrongly?


----------



## Agent

jis said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a quick update if any of you guys are.wondering.where these motors are
> 
> 600- in Wilmington shops
> 
> 601- still in Sacramento
> 
> 602- at Wilmington shops hooked up to some amfleet cars and the.953
> 
> 604- sitting In ivy city yard in Washington
> 
> 605- in Boston
> 
> 606-enroute via train 6, someone sent a picture.of.it.
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't 601 in Pueblo at one point? Or am I remembering wrongly?
Click to expand...

601 should still be at Pueblo, unless it was somehow sent back for some reason and no one noticed.


----------



## PRR 60

Per a report at Trainorders, the first ACS-64 will enter revenue service on Friday, November 15.


----------



## engr08

Don't quote me but someone told me the 600 and 601 went back to Sacramento to be cleaned up and redecaled. 600 made its way back and now sits in Wilmington the 601 may still be in Sacramento. TTCI in publeo are only allow to test engines for 72 days.


----------



## Acela150

PRR 60 said:


> Per a report at Trainorders, the first ACS-64 will enter revenue service on Friday, November 15.


Thanks Bill!!  Hoping I can catch her!  Any word on which unit?


----------



## PRR 60

Acela150 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Per a report at Trainorders, the first ACS-64 will enter revenue service on Friday, November 15.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Bill!!  Hoping I can catch her!  Any word on which unit?
Click to expand...

No clue on that. It will be neat to see them in service.


----------



## ACS-64

600 was at Pueblo from 5-26 through 10-12, on 10-12 went Pueblo to LAJ, then went East on 4(11OCT) LAJ-CHI, then on 30(14OCT) CHI-WAS. Never went back West. Must have been re-decaled at Pueblo.


----------



## engr08

ACS-64 said:


> 600 was at Pueblo from 5-26 through 10-12, on 10-12 went Pueblo to LAJ, then went East on 4(11OCT) LAJ-CHI, then on 30(14OCT) CHI-WAS. Never went back West. Must have been re-decaled at Pueblo.


Maybe you're right


----------



## ayezee

Wasn't it also for mods thought I saw that on another forum but may be wrong


----------



## Acela150

Those Mods were being done by Amtrak at the Wilmington Shops. It was a simple one, changing the headlights from halogen to LED. But that has been rectified and they are now being installed by Siemens on the current units being built.

600 was re-decaled at TTCI. Never went back to Siemens. 601 although is still MIA..


----------



## rickycourtney

engr08 said:


> Just a quick update if any of you guys are.wondering.where these motors are
> 
> 600- in Wilmington shops
> 
> 601- still in Sacramento
> 
> 602- at Wilmington shops hooked up to some amfleet cars and the.953
> 
> 604- sitting In ivy city yard in Washington
> 
> 605- in Boston
> 
> 606-enroute via train 6, someone sent a picture.of.it.


It's not listed here but 603 had been sent to Alstom's Hornell plant for indoor climate testing. Is it still there?


----------



## engr08

Sorry Ricky I thought I put it up, 603 is in Sunnyside yard at the engine house


----------



## jis

Have they re-decaled 602 into standard livery yet?

602 has been on the NEC longest, so maybe that is the one that will do the honors? Just a SWAG (Simple Wild A$$ed Guess)


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> Main thing is to be sure, absolutely sure, there won't be
> 
> some mess-up covered on the evening news -- and in
> 
> an endless loop over the 4-day weekend on Faux News.
> 
> But if one unit is available, and confidence is 100%, then
> 
> the timing should be up to the P.R. Dept.


I think you are over estimating the usefulness and cost effectiveness of a big media event on the entry into revenue service of the ACS-64. I expect Amtrak will do something, news release and maybe a modest scale media event with Boardman at WAS. But it will get little more than a short mention in the Washington Post and most other press.
The traveling public does not ride in the locomotive so it is not something that they interact with. There will be a new locomotive on the front of their train which most will not even notice. "That thing on front is the locomotive and its electric? Oh, didn't know that." New eastern corridor coach cars or an Acela II that the public will sit in and use will get a lot more attention when they show up (someday).


----------



## jis

yes. I don't think the PR department plays much of a role in the service introduction timing. It will happen when it will happen in course of things and PR will send out appropriate PR material and possibly an event around it.


----------



## Acela150

rickycourtney said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a quick update if any of you guys are.wondering.where these motors are
> 
> 600- in Wilmington shops
> 
> 601- still in Sacramento
> 
> 602- at Wilmington shops hooked up to some amfleet cars and the.953
> 
> 604- sitting In ivy city yard in Washington
> 
> 605- in Boston
> 
> 606-enroute via train 6, someone sent a picture.of.it.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not listed here but 603 had been sent to Alstom's Hornell plant for indoor climate testing. Is it still there?
Click to expand...

It was transferred to NYP from ALB on the 20th of September. Saw it be put onto 68 myself.


----------



## bgiaquin

PRR 60 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Per a report at Trainorders, the first ACS-64 will enter revenue service on Friday, November 15.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Bill!!  Hoping I can catch her!  Any word on which unit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No clue on that. It will be neat to see them in service.
Click to expand...

I am going to guess # 602.


----------



## Nathanael

jis said:


> yes. I don;t think the PR department plays much of a role in the service introduction timing. It will happen when it will happen in course of things and PR will send out appropriate PR material and possibly an event around it.


In PR terms, I think the time to announce it is during a "slow week" when ridership is *lower* than average, just in case it does cause some extra riders. If Amtrak gets the ACS-64 deployed for Thanksgiving service, it would probably be wise not to mention it until the next week.


----------



## Agent

I caught ACS-64 AMTK 606 on train #6 being led by P42DC AMTK 6 this morning. The _California Zephyr_ was running one hour and nineteen minutes late when it passes through Agency, Iowa.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Nathanael said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes. I don't think the PR department plays much of a role in
> 
> the service introduction timing. It will happen when it will happen
> 
> in course of things and PR will send out appropriate PR material
> 
> and possibly an event around it.
> 
> 
> 
> In PR terms, I think the time to announce it is during a "slow week"
> 
> when ridership is *lower* than average, just in case it does cause some
> 
> extra riders. If Amtrak gets the ACS-64 deployed for Thanksgiving service,
> 
> it would probably be wise not to mention it until the next week.
Click to expand...

*The audience* for a full strength P.R. effort is not the riders,

it's the bosses: *Congress*. And their hangers-on. The media

members and "opinion leaders" of the chattering class who

exchange opinions at the Georgetown/Upper East Side

cocktail party circuits.

Remind the bosses that *good things are happening at Amtrak*.

If any voters or riders also hear the message, no harm in that,

but the objective is to influence those who have the power.

If Amtrak hasn't realized that its PR Dept is part of the Office of

Congressional Relations, that could explain some of its problems.

Just saying'.


----------



## battalion51

Agent said:


> I caught ACS-64 AMTK 606 on train #6 being led by P42DC AMTK 6 this morning. The _California Zephyr_ was running one hour and nineteen minutes late when it passes through Agency, Iowa.


About the only way that could've been better is if the lineup was AMTK 66 leading the AMTK 606 and the AMTK 6.


----------



## jis

606 is reported to be arriving in Washington DC today by 30.


----------



## engr08

These motors need some mod work done to them. From what I was told its not that serious, the windshield and relocating of some of the pipeline.


----------



## jis

engr08 said:


> These motors need some mod work done to them. From what I was told its not that serious, the windshield and relocating of some of the pipeline.


Will be done in Wilmington?


----------



## engr08

jis said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> These motors need some mod work done to them. From what I was told its not that serious, the windshield and relocating of some of the pipeline.
> 
> 
> 
> Will be done in Wilmington?
Click to expand...

Yes


----------



## Acela150

An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.


At least one usually knowledgeable source has mentioned to me that the first commercial use of the ACS-64 may not be on the NEC spine. When I heard it first I was dumbstruck with disbelief, but who knows?


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.
> 
> 
> 
> At least one usually knowledgeable source has mentioned to me that the first commercial use of the ACS-64 may not be on the NEC spine. When I heard it first I was dumbstruck with disbelief, but who knows?
Click to expand...

If revenue service does indeed start in a few days, we will find out soon. Although I would have expected that the first revenue run to be WAS to NYP, so they could have a short media event in DC with Boardman and others present.


----------



## engr08

Acela150 said:


> An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.


Im guessing it was the 602 but did the motor.have a big Amtrak logo on it or some design on it?


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.
> 
> 
> 
> At least one usually knowledgeable source has mentioned to me that the first commercial use of the ACS-64 may not be on the NEC spine. When I heard it first I was dumbstruck with disbelief, but who knows?
Click to expand...

Jis, I can tell you this was for sure a test train. It had 2 cafes on it. Freeing up one motor from Keystone Service or from running the Pennsylvanian would make sense on a few accounts. One being that they are short runs and can earn the trust of the mechanical department and more.



engr08 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.
> 
> 
> 
> Im guessing it was the 602 but did the motor.have a big Amtrak logo on it or some design on it?
Click to expand...

Big Logo...


----------



## engr08

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.
> 
> 
> 
> At least one usually knowledgeable source has mentioned to me that the first commercial use of the ACS-64 may not be on the NEC spine. When I heard it first I was dumbstruck with disbelief, but who knows?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jis, I can tell you this was for sure a test train. It had 2 cafes on it. Freeing up one motor from Keystone Service or from running the Pennsylvanian would make sense on a few accounts. One being that they are short runs and can earn the trust of the mechanical department and more.
> 
> 
> 
> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An unknown ACS was testing on the Keystone Corridor around 2pm it was hustling to Philly. 4 car train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Im guessing it was the 602 but did the motor.have a big Amtrak logo on it or some design on it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Big Logo...
Click to expand...

Must have been the 600 then because all of the other motors are else where


----------



## ACS-64

ACS-64 headed up to Boston with four coaches through New London, CT at 4PM 11/15.


----------



## engr08

ACS-64 said:


> ACS-64 headed up to Boston with four coaches through New London, CT at 4PM 11/15.


It was the 600 in the lead.


----------



## Acela150

Any idea on when 600 will come back south??

TIA,

Steve


----------



## engr08

not sure


----------



## Fan Railer

According to a reputed employee on RR.net, one more certification run is planned the week after the thanksgiving rush, and then fingers will be crossed for FRA clearance. Estimating by that schedule, we should expect to see the first unit hauling a revenue train sometime Mid December, just in time for Christmas and the New Year.


----------



## ACS-64

Southwest Chief 4(21) is scheduled to be picking up 601 today at La Juanita. 601 was at the TTCI facility/Pueblo from June 8, 2013 till November 21, 2013. The super consist will include 161, 601, 181, 9, 86 LAJ-CHI.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

So it looks like 181 leads 4(21) to LAJ and then 161 and 601 hook on and they lead with 161 to CHI? Is that right?

Forgive me if this has been asked before but where will it go from there?


----------



## Acela150

It'll be 161 and 181 hooking on in LAJ. Then 161,601, and 181 will be taken off in CHI and put on the Cap to DC. Then 601 will head to the Wilmington Shops.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

That makes sense. There's an awesome photo op from ALC on top of a nearby viaduct, I could get the whole consist, if it got delayed a few hours. I hope somebody around HFY has been getting shots of these super CLs, that would make for pretty pictures.


----------



## Ryan

They've been during the stupid week, so no. 

Not yet at least...


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> It'll be 161 and 181 hooking on in LAJ. Then 161,601, and 181 will be taken off in CHI and put on the Cap to DC. Then 601 will head to the Wilmington Shops.


 - Credits to bnsfwarbonnet


----------



## engr08

601 is sitting in ivy city Washington and the 606 is sitting in Wilmington


----------



## ACS-64

603 sitting at NYP, visible from the west end of the platforms this AM, 11/30/13


----------



## ACS-64

600 and 606 sitting in WIL, visible from the corridor this PM, 11/30/13


----------



## ACS-64

604 sitting in WAS/Ivy City this PM, 11/30/13


----------



## engr08

I don't have picture proof but I've seen the 602 inside the Wilmington shops and it has been done over like the other units.


----------



## Acela150

It was stripped of the promo decals about a week ago or so.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3699002


----------



## engr08

Acela150 said:


> It was stripped of the promo decals about a week ago or so.
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3699002


Ok thank you


----------



## Ryan

Any scuttlebutt on revenue service, now that the Thanksgiving crush is complete?


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> Any scuttlebutt on revenue service, now that the Thanksgiving crush is complete?


Ryan I read on Railroad.net that a FRA speed run is required and that should come this week. But I'm not sure how factual that is.


----------



## NE933

How about a test run with the 18 Amfleets they're supposed to handle. That's they only way to verify its pulling power.


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any scuttlebutt on revenue service, now that the Thanksgiving crush is complete?
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan I read on Railroad.net that a FRA speed run is required and that should come this week. But I'm not sure how factual that is.
Click to expand...

It's coming from ThirdRail, IIRC, and he's pretty reliable.



NE933 said:


> How about a test run with the 18 Amfleets they're supposed to handle. That's they only way to verify its pulling power.


In due time, hopefully. I can't see them making that kind of a claim and then not at least testing it once to put some stock behind their words. Also, if the Chamber of Commerce train goes back up to 18 cars from the 14 cars it's recently been, then we'll be seeing this kind of move at least yearly. So, really, no rush.


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> It was stripped of the promo decals about a week ago or so.
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3699002


Here's a link to a directory with a deposit of ACS photos that that photo belongs to. Some of them are pretty interesting:
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locolist.aspx?id=AMTK&mid=21


----------



## Nathanael

NE933 said:


> How about a test run with the 18 Amfleets they're supposed to handle. That's they only way to verify its pulling power.


But how do you simulate a test run with 18 *full* Amfleets, which weigh more than 18 empty Amfleets?


----------



## MattW

Nathanael said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about a test run with the 18 Amfleets they're supposed to handle. That's they only way to verify its pulling power.
> 
> 
> 
> But how do you simulate a test run with 18 *full* Amfleets, which weigh more than 18 empty Amfleets?
Click to expand...

Sandbags. Or apply a few brakes, but I'm not sure if they still do the latter.


----------



## Fan Railer

MattW said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about a test run with the 18 Amfleets they're supposed to handle. That's they only way to verify its pulling power.
> 
> 
> 
> But how do you simulate a test run with 18 *full* Amfleets, which weigh more than 18 empty Amfleets?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sandbags...
Click to expand...

Which is what they did up at Pueblo.


----------



## NE933

When are roof shrouds for the center (main body) going to be installed?


----------



## jis

What roof shrouds?


----------



## Acela150

NE933 said:


> When are roof shrouds for the center (main body) going to be installed?


They might not install them on these units. But bear in mind that when the HST's and HHP's were tested and accepted into service it took a long time before the shrouds were installed.


----------



## cirdan

MattW said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about a test run with the 18 Amfleets they're supposed to handle. That's they only way to verify its pulling power.
> 
> 
> 
> But how do you simulate a test run with 18 *full* Amfleets, which weigh more than 18 empty Amfleets?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sandbags. Or apply a few brakes, but I'm not sure if they still do the latter.
Click to expand...

 Or have some dead locos in the consist.


----------



## cirdan

I haven't seen one of these in real life yet.

Can anybody who has seen them actually working say whether they make the musical scale sound when starting similar to many Siemens locomotives in Europe?


----------



## bgiaquin

cirdan said:


> I haven't seen one of these in real life yet.
> 
> Can anybody who has seen them actually working say whether they make the musical scale sound when starting similar to many Siemens locomotives in Europe?


Nope, no "musical scale" on the 64s, at least not from what I heard from the videos. Look up "Amtrak 602 test run" on Youtube and listen to the engine near the end of the video.


----------



## bgiaquin

Acela150 said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are roof shrouds for the center (main body) going to be installed?
> 
> 
> 
> They might not install them on these units. But bear in mind that when the HST's and HHP's were tested and accepted into service it took a long time before the shrouds were installed.
Click to expand...

Is this what you are talking about?


----------



## Fan Railer

cirdan said:


> I haven't seen one of these in real life yet.
> 
> Can anybody who has seen them actually working say whether they make the musical scale sound when starting similar to many Siemens locomotives in Europe?


The musical scale heard on the "Taurus" comes from older GTO inverter technology. Newer locomotives have IGBT inverter technology.

Based on the following two videos:

http://youtu.be/XJ8iPLq1H1Q?t=3m25s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbHIUFajhbM

I have modeled the potential motor sounds for the ACS-64 in OpenBVE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFkWtbkcPNc

This may of course change once they go into service, and more high quality clips of the propulsion sounds from this locomotive are captured.


----------



## engr08

This engine sounds just like an ALP46a


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

They're so quiet.


----------



## NE933

bgiaquin said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are roof shrouds for the center (main body) going to be installed?
> 
> 
> 
> They might not install them on these units. But bear in mind that when the HST's and HHP's were tested and accepted into service it took a long time before the shrouds were installed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is this what you are talking about?
Click to expand...

The panel in the back, with the straight blue roofline, looks to be what i was inquiring, yes.


----------



## Mid-Atlantic Rider

On my commute on the Marc train out of DC's Union Station this morning I was greeted by this sight. It was still at Union Station this evening as well.


----------



## Acela150

It's there for crew training.


----------



## Joey

4 of them parked outside of Wilmington shops just now


----------



## AlanB

606 was sitting in NHV covered in snow. I'll try to upload a picture when I get home later tonight.


----------



## engr08

Joey said:


> 4 of them parked outside of Wilmington shops just now


Last time I checked the 600, 602 and the 606 was there but I know the 606 is in new haven. I think the 603 may have went back to Wilmington because I didn't see it in penn station or Sunnyside. So I'm wondering which is the forth motor?


----------



## joey

sorry, didn't think fast enough to try and get numbers since i wasn't specifically looking and kind of surprised to see that many.

i posted about 5 minutes after seeing them so they probably have a nice layer of snow on them tomorrow AM. they're lined up for a nice pic, 2 per track next to the building that's on the side of the corridor.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

The snow is probably already washed off. It's turned to rain here in DE.


----------



## AlanB

AmtrakBlue said:


> The snow is probably already washed off. It's turned to rain here in DE.


Still snowing here in NYC, and I suspect also in New Haven.


----------



## AlanB

As promised here's 606 sitting in New Haven.


----------



## Acela150

606 was there Wednesday attached to 901 as pictured above. Just a pan was up.


----------



## acelaphillies

NE933 said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When are roof shrouds for the center (main body) going to be installed?
> 
> 
> 
> They might not install them on these units. But bear in mind that when the HST's and HHP's were tested and accepted into service it took a long time before the shrouds were installed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is this what you are talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The panel in the back, with the straight blue roofline, looks to be what i was inquiring, yes.
Click to expand...

When I first saw this picture I thought, wow that looks familiar! Then I realized-I took it!! I'm glad to see that my pictures are useful as a reference. Enjoy the rest of your weekend everyone!

-acelaphillies


----------



## engr08

605 is back In Wilmington from Boston along with the 601 from Washington


----------



## BrianPR3

anything new it's been awful quiet..

(can you pin this thread please?)


----------



## AlanB

Well 606 was gone from New Haven when I went by earlier today. Don't know where it went, but again it wasn't in NHV.


----------



## engr08

606 is in Boston


----------



## BrianPR3

has that importiant run with the feds happened yet?


----------



## Acela150

BrianPR3 said:


> has that importiant run with the feds happened yet?


You'd know by now..


----------



## afigg

The December 2013 issue of the Amtrak Ink publication has been posted on the website. In the Boardman column, he has this to say:in his year in review and looking ahead comments: "Our new ACS-64 locomotives will debut early in 2014 on the Northeast Corridor and we unveiled the new Viewliner II long-distance rolling stock that will go into testing next year". So the start date for the ACS-64s has officially slipped into 2014, hopefully no later than January.


----------



## Fan Railer

Not sure how long this has been out, but I'm positive it is relatively recent (new, more detailed spec sheet from Siemens; includes TE curve graph):

http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/SiteCollectionDocuments/en/rail-solutions/locomotives/customspecific-solutions/DB-Amtrak-EN.pdf


----------



## NE933

Another website infers a small glitch or bug came up that's expected to be soonly resolved. Its proximaty to a conversation about potential challenges the power demands of the ACSs on MetroNorth has me wondering if it's related to the beleagured MN.


----------



## Fan Railer

NE933 said:


> Another website infers a small glitch or bug came up that's expected to be soonly resolved. Its proximaty to a conversation about potential challenges the power demands of the ACSs on MetroNorth has me wondering if it's related to the beleagured MN.


Lol the employees were making references to "sight" so I'm venturing a guess that it has something to do with line of visibility or some equipment that is related to that... lol we won't know until it's resolved.


----------



## Acela150

According to an Amtrak Engineer on Railroad.net 600 will be the first to enter service in about a month. FRA has signed off on 125 MPH running.


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> According to an Amtrak Engineer on Railroad.net 600 will be the first to enter service in about a month. FRA has signed off on 125 MPH running.


He also wrote that all the windshields in the ACS-64s will be replaced along with a few other modifications to be done before the cars can enter service. He does not say what the problem is with the original windshields. So in 3 to 4 weeks, the ACS-64s should begin in revenue service.


----------



## CHamilton

Photos of 604 at WAS have been posted to the Amtrak group on Facebook.


----------



## R30A

184 was immediately behind it, having pulled in on 30!


----------



## NE933

The chatter on other rail websites claim that besides the unidentified windshield issue, the headlights are causing the glass lenses to overheat and "melt" (?). I don't get that because LEDs are very cool working.


----------



## Acela150

Noted a few posts up.


----------



## PerRock

NE933 said:


> The chatter on other rail websites claim that besides the unidentified windshield issue, the headlights are causing the glass lenses to overheat and "melt" (?). I don't get that because LEDs are very cool working.


LEDs aren't going to melt any glass... However there could be some internal component of the headlights that are melting.

peter


----------



## engr08

PerRock said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The chatter on other rail websites claim that besides the unidentified windshield issue, the headlights are causing the glass lenses to overheat and "melt" (?). I don't get that because LEDs are very cool working.
> 
> 
> 
> LEDs aren't going to melt any glass... However there could be some internal component of the headlights that are melting.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

I remember when the 603 was in NYP, the glass which protects the ditch lights were cracked. The 603 didn't have the LED lights installed at that time but management was saying that regular head lights that was installed was too hot. Last time I checked the 603 and 604 didn't received LED lights yet. Someone said they an ACS64 being towed on Saturday east through Metropark, does anyone know anything about this or where it was going?


----------



## engr08

605 is in NYP for engineer training


----------



## VentureForth

Not being a Nor' Easterner, I've not followed this thread hardly at all. Rather than reading 27 pages, can someone give a quick update on how things are going and when entry into service can be expected?


----------



## Ryan

A few issues with respect to the windshields and ditch light lenses are being worked out. Normal commissioning stuff it sounds like.

Soon for revenue service.


----------



## bgiaquin

Last I heard, one (apparently #600) should be in revenue service in about 2 weeks


----------



## Slasharoo

One issue with LED lights is that they don't generate enough heat to melt ice and snow.


----------



## engr08

Slasharoo said:


> One issue with LED lights is that they don't generate enough heat to melt ice and snow.


The regular 300 watt (I think that how much it is ) generate to much heat and that was melting or cracking the ditch light lens. From what I've heard the 601 should be doing some EMI testing tomorrow. I don't know the time and place but that's what im hearing.


----------



## PerRock

engr08 said:


> Slasharoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> One issue with LED lights is that they don't generate enough heat to melt ice and snow.
> 
> 
> 
> The regular 300 watt (I think that how much it is ) generate to much heat and that was melting or cracking the ditch light lens. From what I've heard the 601 should be doing some EMI testing tomorrow. I don't know the time and place but that's what im hearing.
Click to expand...

I still don't understand this issue with the lights. From what I understand people saying here is that the LED headlamps (or maybe ditchlights) are generating to much heat and cracking the lenses.

However this doesn't make any sense, as that's not how LEDs work. LEDs generate very little heat (yes they wouldn't melt snow). So how can something with such a low heat output be causing the lenses to crack because of heat?

peter


----------



## Ryan

engr08 said:


> The 603 didn't have the LED lights installed at that time but management was saying that regular head lights that was installed was too hot. Last time I checked the 603 and 604 didn't received LED lights yet.


----------



## engr08

601 just passed Newark NJ with 4 cars, test train testing at 125mph.


----------



## Guest

I saw ACS64 lead a few amfleets North towards NYC(I Think) and came back around 3ish.


----------



## Acela150

Here's the good news.. Their testing again!  Here's the bad news.. No official word on Revenue Service...


----------



## PRR 60

Have there been any additional units shipped east from the plant? I have not heard of any. I wonder if the issue or issues has impacted production.


----------



## engr08

PRR 60 said:


> Have there been any additional units shipped east from the plant? I have not heard of any. I wonder if the issue or issues has impacted production.


No new motors have arrived. The 607and 608 was ready to go until the problems with the windsheld arrived. I also heard there was some kind of metal fatigue near the trucks but all is being taken care of now. Siemens is doing everything it can to get these units up and going because remember they are competing for that high speed rail contract.


----------



## afigg

PRR 60 said:


> Have there been any additional units shipped east from the plant? I have not heard of any. I wonder if the issue or issues has impacted production.


I have not seen any reports of ACS-64s being shipped east since #606 in early November. Given the reports of the windshields being replaced in the delivered units, issues with the headlights, Siemens likely has a backlog building up of ACS-64s waiting on the final design decisions and modifications before being shipped out.


----------



## OBS

afigg said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have there been any additional units shipped east from the plant? I have not heard of any. I wonder if the issue or issues has impacted production.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not seen any reports of ACS-64s being shipped east since #606 in early November. Given the reports of the windshields being replaced in the delivered units, issues with the headlights, Siemens likely has a backlog building up of ACS-64s waiting on the final design decisions and modifications before being shipped out.
Click to expand...

That is correct. Spoke with someone from Mechanical who said that production has slowed while all the testing continues. Thus problems can be identified and corrected before the whole fleet is built.


----------



## Guest

Amtrak ACS64 Passed by Philly about 30 mins ago! It was heading towards NYC.


----------



## engr08

Guest said:


> Amtrak ACS64 Passed by Philly about 30 mins ago! It was heading towards NYC.


It's doing EMI testing, I think today was the last before it goes back to checked on.


----------



## Fan Railer

From Super Star Rendon; shot at Edison:


----------



## Acela150

Fan Railer that video is at Edison. Trains go no where near as fast through Elizabeth.


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> Fan Railer that video is at Edison. Trains go no where near as fast through Elizabeth.


lol, idk why I said Elizabeth...


----------



## Acela150

It happens!


----------



## bgiaquin

Well I wonder what they changed with the windshields, I notice no exterior differences. Must have been quite minor.


----------



## ACL

Did they do any testing of the ACS-64 during the snow storms?


----------



## Guest

Any updates on test runs or when it's going to start its revenue service?


----------



## HAL

ACL said:


> Did they do any testing of the ACS-64 during the snow storms?


They are running them most days. Too certify the engineers. Now allowed 125 mph. Expect them in revenue service shortly.


----------



## NE933

Poster engr08 above mentioned metal fatigue near the trucks. Can anyone elaborate?


----------



## engr08

NE933 said:


> Poster engr08 above mentioned metal fatigue near the trucks. Can anyone elaborate?


It seems that issue was taken care of, this is why we didn't see units 607-08 and etc.


----------



## Andrew

Do these new locomotives have outlets for employees to charge smartphones?


----------



## AlanB

Andrew said:


> Do these new locomotives have outlets for employees to charge smartphones?


Since employees are not allowed to use a smartphone while on duty, save the special iPhones that conductors use for eTicketing, there would be no reason to design an engine to allow an employee to plug in a smartphone.

This is not to say that the engine doesn't have an outlet that might well get used to charge a smartphone; simply that the outlet wasn't put in for that reason.


----------



## NS

Smartphones must be off while the train is in operation, so they wouldn't need outlets for them since they are not using power while they are off.


----------



## engr08

Acs64 test train in ny from dc with engine number #600.


----------



## Fan Railer

engr08 said:


> Acs64 test train in ny from dc with engine number #600.


From Edison again, from Rendon:

4 Cafes in a row; quite interesting to see.


----------



## Acela150

I hope they didn't run out of food..


----------



## HAL

AlanB said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do these new locomotives have outlets for employees to charge smartphones?
> 
> 
> 
> Since employees are not allowed to use a smartphone while on duty, save the special iPhones that conductors use for eTicketing, there would be no reason to design an engine to allow an employee to plug in a smartphone.This is not to say that the engine doesn't have an outlet that might well get used to charge a smartphone; simply that the outlet wasn't put in for that reason.
Click to expand...

Right, the outlet is not there for smartphones. An outlet is needed for maintenance equipment and tools.


----------



## amtrakdude93

I mean an employee could probably charge their smartphone or laptop or iPad, I know a boston engineer that always gave his personal stuff to the conductor who would plug it into charge in the conductors office on the Acela consists.


----------



## engr08

I cant wait to operate these motors, I heard so many good things about them. They honestly look like a more advanced ALP46


----------



## Nathanael

NS said:


> Smartphones must be off while the train is in operation, so they wouldn't need outlets for them since they are not using power while they are off.


They totally do use power when they're off. Most of them are "smart" enough that they won't go dead in 8 hours, though.


----------



## engr08

Just plug your smartphone in on the other end. As long as your electronic device is not on your persons then your fine.


----------



## Guest

One of the ACS64 (didn't see the road number) is at the 30th St Yard in Philly.


----------



## engr08

Guest said:


> One of the ACS64 (didn't see the road number) is at the 30th St Yard in Philly.


605


----------



## afigg

The Amtrak blog website has a post today on the training for the ACS-64s: Whats It Like: Amtrak Cities Sprinter Engineer Training. Has 2 short video clips.



> With the addition of the 70 new Amtrak Cities Sprinter (ACS-64) locomotives, comes new equipment to learn. Thats why the 450 Amtrak engineers on the Northeast Corridor have been participating in multi-day locomotive training. Heres your glimpse into how they are preparing for the arrival of the new equipment.
> 
> Each training is facilitated by an Amtrak road foreman who instructs eight engineers. During the comprehensive training sessions, participants receive classroom and operational training as well as software-based and simulation training. At the culmination of the training, the engineers are observed by their supervisor for a qualification to operate the locomotive.
> 
> Jonathan Hines, Amtrak System General Road Foreman, is responsible for training the engineers and has received great feedback from them, Response from participants has been very very positive, he said. They have been excited to see what the equipment can do and are quite impressed with what they are getting.
> 
> By the end of February, all Northeast Corridor engineers will have completed the training and will be qualified to operate the new Amtrak Cities Sprinter.


If they are that close to having all the NEC engineers qualified, entry into revenue service can't be far off.


----------



## Acela150

It seems to me that the Engineer in the video seemed to be enjoying the new equipment but looks a little confused by it at the same time. But that's just me.


----------



## Acela150

Reports are circulating that 600 will debut on train #171 this Friday with a possible Press Run Thursday.. Keep your eyes and ears open for further reports.

Confirmed by an Amtrak Engineer. The following will take place:

Wednesday unit 600 will run WAS-PHL as train 880. Train might show in ARROW as of now it is not showing.

Thursday unit 600 will run as train 882 PHL-BOS.

Friday unit 600 will run on train 171 between BOS-WAS.

Get your cameras ready!  Good luck to all!


----------



## PerRock

Any idea if it'll run at all on Saturday?

peter


----------



## Guest

Just saw two more ACS64 Locos in Philly. I'm pretty sure there are at least three of them at the moment in the 30th Street Yard.


----------



## Fan Railer

PerRock said:


> Any idea if it'll run at all on Saturday?
> 
> peter


That, we'll have to wait to find out. Obviously, it'll depend on how 600 performs this Friday.


----------



## Fan Railer

afigg said:


> The Amtrak blog website has a post today on the training for the ACS-64s: Whats It Like: Amtrak Cities Sprinter Engineer Training. Has 2 short video clips.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the addition of the 70 new Amtrak Cities Sprinter (ACS-64) locomotives, comes new equipment to learn. Thats why the 450 Amtrak engineers on the Northeast Corridor have been participating in multi-day locomotive training. Heres your glimpse into how they are preparing for the arrival of the new equipment.
> 
> Each training is facilitated by an Amtrak road foreman who instructs eight engineers. During the comprehensive training sessions, participants receive classroom and operational training as well as software-based and simulation training. At the culmination of the training, the engineers are observed by their supervisor for a qualification to operate the locomotive.
> 
> Jonathan Hines, Amtrak System General Road Foreman, is responsible for training the engineers and has received great feedback from them, Response from participants has been very very positive, he said. They have been excited to see what the equipment can do and are quite impressed with what they are getting.
> 
> By the end of February, all Northeast Corridor engineers will have completed the training and will be qualified to operate the new Amtrak Cities Sprinter.
> 
> 
> 
> If they are that close to having all the NEC engineers qualified, entry into revenue service can't be far off.
Click to expand...

Seems like they are planning to make the big announcement on the 171 run tomorrow: http://blog.amtrak.com/2014/02/watch-sit-inside-amtraks-new-locomotives/


> In preparation for tomorrow's big news, we're showing you just how awesome our new locomotives are ... from the driver's seat! They'll be powering the trains on our Northeast Corridor between Washington, D.C., and Boston soon.
> 
> This is a perspective that customers rarely get, but we've been sharing the exclusive footage on our Instagram account all week. For more insider info, follow us @Amtrak.
> 
> The new Cities Sprinter locomotives were designed for improved safety and reliability. They also allow for more efficient and cost-effective maintenance, which means they can return to service as quickly as possible, getting you to exactly where you need to be. On time.


----------



## SarahZ

Fan Railer said:


> Seems like they are planning to make the big announcement on the 171 run tomorrow: http://blog.amtrak.com/2014/02/watch-sit-inside-amtraks-new-locomotives/


I love videos taken from the engineer's seat.  That was fun.


----------



## jis

Some more on this:



> The official unveiling of the ACS64 will be tomorrow at 30th St. in Philadelphia with speeches by Joe Biden, DOT’s Anthony Foxx, Joe Boardman and the president of Siemens USA, Mr. Speigal.


Also reported elsewhere that the first commercial run will be by engine #600 on train #171 from Boston to Washington DC on Friday.


----------



## Ryan

Awwwww, yeah!!! Through Odenton close enough to the end of the workday that I can hopefully knock off a little early and grab it, but early enough that it'll still be light out. Southbound to boot, which gives a slightly better shot (it'll be running towards whatever sun is out.

SCORE!!!


----------



## NE933

Great news, y'all!! Glad to hear it.


----------



## engr08

Someone reported of an extra ACS64 in Philly today. We all know by reading this thread that the 605 now resided in Philly but do anyone know what other motor is there now?


----------



## Guest

ACS64 #605 is in the pit lines with all the other Amtrak locos. ACS64 #600 (maybe) is in the yard attached to the 3 amfleets ready for tomorrow. The third ACS64 was attached to 2 amfleets and beach grove and the set was shunted into 30th Street Station.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Some more on this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The official unveiling of the ACS64 will be tomorrow at 30th St. in Philadelphia with speeches by Joe Biden, DOT’s Anthony Foxx, Joe Boardman and the president of Siemens USA, Mr. Speigal.
> 
> 
> 
> Also reported elsewhere that the first commercial run will be by engine #600 on train #171 from Boston to Washington DC on Friday.
Click to expand...

The Vice President and the Secretary of Transportation? That will make the media event a pretty big time dog and pony show. Wonder if Biden and the Secretary will travel to PHL on an Acela or get a ride with Boardman in the Beech Grove office car? Although for the VP, the Secret Service might object and require him to fly if they think that Biden's traveling by train has been leaked in advance.

Now that first ACS-64s is finally about to enter service, I would expect that the delivery of new engines from Sacramento will resume shortly.


----------



## engr08

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some more on this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The official unveiling of the ACS64 will be tomorrow at 30th St. in Philadelphia with speeches by Joe Biden, DOT’s Anthony Foxx, Joe Boardman and the president of Siemens USA, Mr. Speigal.
> 
> 
> 
> Also reported elsewhere that the first commercial run will be by engine #600 on train #171 from Boston to Washington DC on Friday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Vice President and the Secretary of Transportation? That will make the media event a pretty big time dog and pony show. Wonder if Biden and the Secretary will travel to PHL on an Acela or get a ride with Boardman in the Beech Grove office car? Although for the VP, the Secret Service might object and require him to fly if they think that Biden's traveling by train has been leaked in advance.
> 
> Now that first ACS-64s is finally about to enter service, I would expect that the delivery of new engines from Sacramento will resume shortly.
Click to expand...

The original report was the 600-609 was to be delivered to the NEC for trial runs but when they found certain issues with the first 6 motors production was stopped. Now that these issues has been fixed and the first ACS is entering service I believe they should start ramping up production soon. I wouldn't be surprise if the 607-08 would show up this month.


----------



## ronkstevens

anyone know the time of the events in Philly tomorrow?


----------



## Acela150

ronkstevens said:


> anyone know the time of the events in Philly tomorrow?


Just a guess that it will be in the morning. To avoid a PM rush run through NYP and Metro-North.


----------



## NE933

Now, let's push for these dignitaries to amp up their puckers and really do whatever's necessary to blare out how badly the rest of the rail system needs similar nfusion of new engines, railcars, better and more track, even if they have to have their lips make contact with someone's buttocks, to get their attention.


----------



## ACL

Just got my ticket to ride 171 from BWI to WAS. First revenue service of an ACS-64 into Washington. Hoooray!!!!


----------



## jis

I just got one for a ride on 171 on Friday the 7th of Feb, from MET to PHL. So if anyone else plans to be on please let us know.


----------



## jis

According to reports on Trainorders:

1. 600 will operate on 171 on Friday

2. On Saturday and Sunday 600 will be on 152 and 159

3. During the week it will be on 184 and 129 (WAS - NYP and back)

4. 601 will be accepted on Feb 20 and will be assigned to 184/93 or 129. What does 600 do during the week then, don't know)

5. Starting March 1, until order completion Siemens will release 3 new locomotives per month.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> According to reports on Trainorders:
> 
> 1. 600 will operate on 171 on Friday
> 
> 2. On Saturday and Sunday 600 will be on 152 and 159
> 
> 3. During the week it will be on 184 and 129 (WAS - NYP and back)
> 
> 4. 601 will be accepted on Feb 20 and will be assigned to 184/93 or 129. What does 600 do during the week then, don't know)
> 
> 5. Starting March 1, until order completion Siemens will release 3 new locomotives per month.


*I like* these reports!

Starting March 1 we'll see 3 per month, means 27 by 

the end of the year plus those in the test phase, so 

almost half of the fleet will be ACS-64s by the start 

of 2015.

Correct me if I'm missing something, but won't this be

the first big delivery of new equipment since the Acelas?


----------



## cpamtfan

Trying to decide if I want to go see this first or, and if so at the Hunterspoint Avenue LIRR or just while it's in NYP...


----------



## afigg

NE933 said:


> Now, let's push for these dignitaries to amp up their puckers and really do whatever's necessary to blare out how badly the rest of the rail system needs similar nfusion of new engines, railcars, better and more track, even if they have to have their lips make contact with someone's buttocks, to get their attention.


VP Biden and Secretary Foxx are expected to use the roll-out to advocate for infrastructure investments. The Obama administration has been pushing hard the past 3 years for spending more on infrastructure of all kinds, but of course, has been blocked by the House, especially on anything to do with HSR. AP article previewing todays new conference: Vice President Joe Biden visiting Philadelphia to unveil new Amtrak engine.



> PHILADELPHIA — Vice President Joe Biden is heading to Philadelphia to unveil Amtrak's newest engine.
> 
> He'll use the event at 30th Street Station to stress the need for infrastructure investment.
> 
> Thursday's news conference will feature a look at Amtrak's new Cities Sprinter electric locomotive. The U.S.-built engine will power trains along the Northeast Corridor from Boston to Washington and on Keystone Service from Harrisburg to Philadelphia and New York City.
> 
> Biden frequently commuted on Amtrak to Washington from his home state of Delaware during his long tenure in the Senate.
> 
> Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx is also slated to attend the event


We will see if the roll-out will get coverage beyond short articles buried inside the Washington Post and other news outlets outside of Philly. It will get more coverage in Philly just because the Vice President is there.


----------



## bgiaquin

WoodyinNYC said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to reports on Trainorders:
> 
> 1. 600 will operate on 171 on Friday
> 
> 2. On Saturday and Sunday 600 will be on 152 and 159
> 
> 3. During the week it will be on 184 and 129 (WAS - NYP and back)
> 
> 4. 601 will be accepted on Feb 20 and will be assigned to 184/93 or 129. What does 600 do during the week then, don't know)
> 
> 5. Starting March 1, until order completion Siemens will release 3 new locomotives per month.
> 
> 
> 
> *I like* these reports!
> 
> Starting March 1 we'll see 3 per month, means 27 by
> 
> the end of the year plus those in the test phase, so
> 
> almost half of the fleet will be ACS-64s by the start
> 
> of 2015.
> 
> Correct me if I'm missing something, but won't this be
> 
> the first big delivery of new equipment since the Acelas?
Click to expand...

No, the acelas were delivered in 2000, but the second order of new P42s were delivered in 2001.


----------



## bgiaquin

So if 601 goes in on the 20th, hopefully 602 will be in service by early March. LET THE MASS RETIREMENT OF THE AEM-7s BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BrianPR3

bgiaquin said:


> So if 601 goes in on the 20th, hopefully 602 will be in service by early March. LET THE MASS RETIREMENT OF THE AEM-7s BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!


the hippos first (HHP 8'S)!


----------



## Ryan

ACL said:


> Just got my ticket to ride 171 from BWI to WAS. First revenue service of an ACS-64 into Washington. Hoooray!!!!





jis said:


> I just got one for a ride on 171 on Friday the 7th of Feb, from MET to PHL. So if anyone else plans to be on please let us know.


I'll wave at you from the Odenton platform (not really, I'll have my camera stuck to me face). If one of you guys end up sitting on the left hand side, it would be awesome if you took a picture of me taking a picture of you.


----------



## rickycourtney

BrianPR3 said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if 601 goes in on the 20th, hopefully 602 will be in service by early March. LET THE MASS RETIREMENT OF THE AEM-7s BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> the hippos first (HHP 8'S)!
Click to expand...

The way I understand it...

The 18 remaining AEM-7DC units will be the first to be retired, followed by the 29 AEM-7AC units that were rebuilt in 1999 with Alstom equipment.

The 15 HHP-8 units will be "retired" under a different schedule since they are owned by Bombardier and leased by Amtrak. They will be kept around until their lease expires (not sure when that is) likely to be used as backup locomotives and on work trains.


----------



## jis

They will either have to renumber the HHP-8s into a different block or numbers the ACS-64s leaving a gap in the middle for the HHP-8s. I think they will renumber the HHP-8s since having two classes o0f engines with overlapping number groups will be darned confusing. Or of course they could retire the HHP-8s before the problem arises.


----------



## MattW

Joe Biden got an up-close look at the new locomotive: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/06/joe-biden-amtrak-cities-sprinter_n_4739739.html


----------



## afigg

Amtrak has posted a press release on the roll-out of the ACS-64s: New Amtrak Locomotives Ready for Service and Set to Power Northeast Economy.

The only new news in the release is that the ACS-64s will be delivered through 2015. IIRC, earlier statements had the ACS-64s delivered through early 2016. That suppports that the report that the delivery rate would be 3 units per month. The AEM-7s and HHP-8s could be gone from revenue service in 2 years.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> They will either have to renumber the HHP-8s into a different block or numbers the ACS-64s leaving a gap in the middle for the HHP-8s. I think they will renumber the HHP-8s since having two classes o0f engines with overlapping number groups will be darned confusing. Or of course they could retire the HHP-8s before the problem arises.


With the HHP-8 numbers starting at 650, Amtrak could retire the remaining HHP-8s sequentially as the same numbered ACS-64 is delivered. Amtrak will have 50 ACS-64s in house before the numbers conflict, so keep some AEM-7ACs around as the HHP-8s are retired until the production run of 70 units is completed. Probably simpler, though, to renumber the HHP-8s to 750 and up, if those numbers are open.


----------



## battalion51

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> They will either have to renumber the HHP-8s into a different block or numbers the ACS-64s leaving a gap in the middle for the HHP-8s. I think they will renumber the HHP-8s since having two classes o0f engines with overlapping number groups will be darned confusing. Or of course they could retire the HHP-8s before the problem arises.
> 
> 
> 
> With the HHP-8 numbers starting at 650, Amtrak could retire the remaining HHP-8s sequentially as the same numbered ACS-64 is delivered. Amtrak will have 50 ACS-64s in house before the numbers conflict, so keep some AEM-7ACs around as the HHP-8s are retired until the production run of 70 units is completed. Probably simpler, though, to renumber the HHP-8s to 750 and up, if those numbers are open.
Click to expand...

Actually, in theory it'd be easiest to re-number them into the 950 series. As of right now there are only 4 road numbers that would conflict, and those will be gone soon. It seems like Amtrak has a "history" of having its electrics in the 600 and 900 series, with the GG-1s and E-60s occupying the series prior to the AEM-7s and ACS-64s respectively.


----------



## jis

#600 headed to Boston photographed at Edison today

This is not a picture taken by me. It is linked in from railpictures.net


----------



## Fan Railer

- At Edison, from Rendon


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> #600 headed to Boston photographed at Edison today


That is downright BEAUTIFUL.


----------



## SarahZ

That's a gorgeous shot!

Also, I love the train's "face".

"Get out of my way. I have important train stuff to do."


----------



## AmtrakBlue

RyanS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> #600 headed to Boston photographed at Edison today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is downright BEAUTIFUL.
Click to expand...

Ditti


----------



## Railroad Bill

AmtrakBlue said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> #600 headed to Boston photographed at Edison today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is downright BEAUTIFUL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ditti
Click to expand...

Wish we had those out here in Cleveland


----------



## Ryan

*AWWWWW, YEAH!!!!!*



Code:


* Train 171 of 02/07/2014.
* Northeast Regional - Virginia
* Eng: 600 First Revenue Run of an ACS-64
* +---------------- Station code
* |    +----------- Schedule Arrival Day  
* |    |  +-------- Schedule Arrival time
* |    |  |     +----- Schedule Departure Day
* |    |  |     |  +-- Schedule Departure Time 
* |    |  |     |  |     +------------- Actual Arrival Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     +------- Actual Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     |     +- Comments
* V    V  V     V  V     V     V     V
* BOS  *  *     1  815A  *     815A  Departed:  on time.


----------



## Ziv

That is a very nice shot. I haven't liked the look of the ACS-64, but it seems to be growing on me.



jis said:


> #600 headed to Boston photographed at Edison today


----------



## FreeskierInVT

I'm at Stamford ready to take a few pictures of 171 arriving. Only 4 mins late out of NHV, so it'll be here soon. Can't wait!


----------



## Fan Railer

Some great shots available here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/7860063780/


----------



## Fan Railer

First video on Youtube of 600 at Route 128:


Credits to Tcostello105


----------



## BrianPR3

Fan Railer said:


> Some great shots available here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/7860063780/


its a group to make you join


----------



## Nathanael

The estimate of $15 million in energy savings per year got me thinking and adding things up.

Amtrak has a rough 2014 to get through, but there's a lot of things coming down the pike which will improve Amtrak's bottom line. Paying off the Penn Station Mortgage in 2017 is a notable one, as are the great mass of ARRA projects which have a 2017 deadline. And of course the much-delayed Viewliner IIs, and the "corridor bilevels". It's harder to predict the effect of vaguer things like the various news stations and development of urban rail systems which connect to Amtrak or the general "trend" towards train travel, but they all seem to be good. If Amtrak can manage to, well, manage things properly for the next few years (fix the unacceptable pricing bug on the website, put out service alerts promptly when something goes wrong, etc.) the financial numbers which Congress looks at should look very impressive in 2018.


----------



## CHamilton

"ACS-64 600 on train #171 rolling through Woodside, Queens."

via Facebook


----------



## FreeskierInVT

Here's my video of ACS-64 #600 at Stamford, CT this morning


----------



## CHamilton

"ACS-64 class unit #600 leads Amtrak Regional 171 through West Haven, CT. This is the ACS-64's first revenue trip. Amtrak President Joe Boardman can be seen in the firemans seat." via Facebook


----------



## Bob Dylan

:hi: Nice Pic Charlie, that Engine sure looks Pristine! Hopefully they'll be Reliable and Workhorses for Many Years! And ! Wonder if "Amtrak Joe" Biden is the Engineer! ^_^


----------



## afigg

The Washington Post has a short article on Thursday's media event: Biden helps Amtrak unveil its new electric locomotive. There is a photo of VP Biden and DOT Secretary Foxx looking at the controls. So the article starts with a fun question: "Does this just scream “caption contest”?" 

Biden probably wants to ask "Hey, can we take this out for a spin?"


----------



## Ryan

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

I got blocked by 92. Maybe one shot is somewhat decent, but it looked way out of focus since the camera didn't have time to do its thing before the train was past.

Maybe tomorrow morning.


----------



## afigg

#171 (7) arrived at WAS 2 minutes early. The latest it got on the trip was 7 minutes late at New London. I'm sure it got the extra priority treatment today.


----------



## Fan Railer

afigg said:


> #171 (7) arrived at WAS 2 minutes early. The latest it got on the trip was 7 minutes late at New London. I'm sure it got the extra priority treatment today.


Haha, probably, but even with the priority, I'm sure there's plenty of padding in the schedule as well.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I got blocked by 92. Maybe one shot is somewhat decent, but it looked way out of focus since the camera didn't have time to do its thing before the train was past.
> 
> Maybe tomorrow morning.


That blows...


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> #171 (7) arrived at WAS 2 minutes early. The latest it got on the trip was 7 minutes late at New London. I'm sure it got the extra priority treatment today.


It is reported that for a little while Boardman was in the cab.

At Philadelphia we got to see the inside of the cab from an open door. The place was crawling with Amtrak staff, and rail enthusiasts like me + the obligatory Amtrak Police and K-9 units.

The Chief Editor of Railway Age got to ride in the cab from New York Penn Station to Newark Penn Station.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> #171 (7) arrived at WAS 2 minutes early. The latest it got on the trip was 7 minutes late at New London. I'm sure it got the extra priority treatment today.
> 
> 
> 
> It is reported that for a little while Boardman was in the cab.
Click to expand...

Jishnu there's a photo with the new Amtrak Joe in the cab in the fireman's seat.


----------



## Ryan

So here's my sad story, in pictures.

Have "The Talk" with the boss around 2:00. "Hey, I'm pretty much wrapped up, I'm going to slip out a little early." I've convinced him to try Amtrak to NY for a trip next month, so he knows I'm into trains, so I tell him I'm off to shoot a brand new locomotive. He wishes me luck.

3:00: Time to head out. It's sunny, warm (mid-40's at least), and I'm rolling out early on a Friday to shoot some trains. All is well in the world.

3:15: I arrive at the station, and line up on the northbound platform, which is where I usually shoot from. The s/b platform has crappy sight lines and generally sucks for photography. Checking the schedule, I see a northbound MARC train is due in at 3:51 and projected to be on time. Crap. 171 is due out of BWI at 3:44. 5 minutes or so to get here, and running a couple minutes late puts the MARC train in the station blocking my view at the expected time of 171. If I go all the way to the North end of the platform, I can be in front of the train as it stops, but once it starts to leave, I'm screwed for about 1 minute while the train rolls by.

I decide to take the other platform and the certain shot (even if it is a crappy one) over the risk of missing it. As I'm leaving to cross under the tracks, I see another guy with a camera showing up. As I'm walking towards the stairs to cross under the tracks, we get the first action of the day. First in the chute is Acela Express 2170. Engineer gives a friendly toot on the horn, I get a passable (if boring) shot. ISO on the camera is too high (the high shutter speed is why the LED sign looks messed up), this is why you show up early and throw some test shots. This is looking south towards Washington:





ACS-64_FAIL_8 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

I get over to the other side, and quickly remember why I never shoot there. It sucks. Decide to go back to the good side and risk it.

Once one the other side, fellow rail fan is setting up 20 yards further south than I like to shoot. If I go to my preferred spot, I'm going to be right in my shot. Since I left, he was there "first" and I lost my shot. Hang out with him and talk trains for a bit. We both talk about how nervous we are that the MARC train is going to ruin our shot.

While we're talking, it becomes Train Time in Odenton. 6 trains in 15 minutes. Normally I'd be thrilled.

3:37: First of the bunch is MARC 537, making it's express run to DC. This is pretty much the shot of 171 that I'm looking for.





ACS-64_FAIL_7 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

3:44: Next up is a deadhead MARC - this is a Camden line train set that leaves DC a little after 2 and makes a revenue trip to Baltimore, then deadheads back to DC to make a Camden line run. Again, this is where 171 is going to be in a few minutes. At this point the observant reader will notice the two tracks between the train and I. Tracks that can (and will!) be filled with trains.





ACS-64_FAIL_6 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

3:47: Not 3 minutes later, other guy and I are looking both ways. 171 left BWI on time 3 minutes ago. Who is going to show up first? MARC, or the good stuff? Seeing a light to the south, we're disappointed, then realize "Hey, that's on 2 track! Moar Amtrak?!?". Welcome regional 134 to the party. At least I get a good AEM-7 shout out of the day.





ACS-64_FAIL_5 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr


----------



## Ryan

3:51: Still looking both ways. Trains seem to be everywhere. Will MARC show up and ruin the shot, or will be rewarded for our patience? Uh oh. Lights to the south. But it isn't the MARC, it's Amtrak 92, showing up earlier than expected!





ACS-64_FAIL_4 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

May as well get a shot of the diner (they're not long for this world either) and the sleepers bringing up the rear:





ACS-64_FAIL_3 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

It's about this point in time other dude says something to the effect of "CRAP, HERE IT IS!!!". There was probably some profanity involved. I spin around and see the pantograph of the elusive ACS-64 over the top of the Viewliner Sleepers. CRAPCRAPCRAPCRAP!!!! Bring the camera up and get ready for the snapshot - maybe I'll get lucky.

Not really:





ACS-64_FAIL_2 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

You can see my photographer friend just on the right edge of the frame, hoping for the same thing. This is it. Wait 40 minutes, and a train is in the way for the crucial 5 seconds.

Remembering that 10001 is bringing up the markers, I persevere.





ACS-64_FAIL_1 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr

There it goes, unshot by me. In the distance you can see the headlights of the MARC train coming up one track. We'd have gotten the shot had it hadn't been for that meddling 92.

TOMORROW MORNING! Try #2!!!! I like shooting northbound better, so I'm hopeful of success.


----------



## Ryan

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> #171 (7) arrived at WAS 2 minutes early. The latest it got on the trip was 7 minutes late at New London. I'm sure it got the extra priority treatment today.
> 
> 
> 
> It is reported that for a little while Boardman was in the cab.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jishnu there's a photo with the new Amtrak Joe in the cab in the fireman's seat.
Click to expand...

That's probably my favorite picture from today.


----------



## ACS-64

Try your luck on 152 WAS-NYP and 159 NYP-WAS on Saturday 2/8.


----------



## ACL

How does one upload an image?

Thanks.


----------



## Ryan

Thanks, yeah I'll definitely be out there tomorrow morning.


----------



## Fan Railer

ACL said:


> How does one upload an image?
> 
> Thanks.


You use an image hosting site like flickr, and then embed the image link here.


----------



## Ryan

You can also attach them here by clicking on the "Attach Files" button cleverly hidden below this window:


----------



## afigg

Fan Railer said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> #171 (7) arrived at WAS 2 minutes early. The latest it got on the trip was 7 minutes late at New London. I'm sure it got the extra priority treatment today.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, probably, but even with the priority, I'm sure there's plenty of padding in the schedule as well.
Click to expand...

#171 (7) was on the normal schedule from Boston to Lynchburg. The padding is part of the normal schedule including 8 minutes at PHL.


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> #171 (7) arrived at WAS 2 minutes early. The latest it got on the trip was 7 minutes late at New London. I'm sure it got the extra priority treatment today.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, probably, but even with the priority, I'm sure there's plenty of padding in the schedule as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> #171 (7) was on the normal schedule from Boston to Lynchburg. The padding is part of the normal schedule including 8 minutes at PHL.
Click to expand...

The 8 minutes of padding is for 2159 to pass by. It's scheduled to depart the same time as 2159 but holds for the signal indication.

If one looks at the photo attached in the link.. This is the best shot of the day IMO.. A toaster passes 600 at WIL. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3750429http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3750429


----------



## jis

171 had to hold for a slightly delayed Acela at Philly and its departure was delayed by 4 mins or so. All that is built into the padding.


----------



## Ziv

Nathanael, what is impressive? Would annual budgeting drop below $2Bn? What has it been over the past 10 years, somewhere between $2Bn and $3Bn? Wiki says it has been around $2.6Bn but then there are entries above it that say Total Appropriations are just around $1.4Bn.

I just like to know that I am right when I argue that just $2.6Bn gets us an entire passenger transportation mode in online debates. $1.4Bn would be even better but I don't know if it is true.



Nathanael said:


> The estimate of $15 million in energy savings per year got me thinking and adding things up.
> 
> Amtrak has a rough 2014 to get through, but there's a lot of things coming down the pike which will improve Amtrak's bottom line. Paying off the Penn Station Mortgage in 2017 is a notable one, as are the great mass of ARRA projects which have a 2017 deadline. And of course the much-delayed Viewliner IIs, and the "corridor bilevels". It's harder to predict the effect of vaguer things like the various news stations and development of urban rail systems which connect to Amtrak or the general "trend" towards train travel, but they all seem to be good. If Amtrak can manage to, well, manage things properly for the next few years (fix the unacceptable pricing bug on the website, put out service alerts promptly when something goes wrong, etc.) the financial numbers which Congress looks at should look very impressive in 2018.


----------



## ACL

Train 171 arriving at BWI Station.


----------



## ACL

At WAS just before being changed for a P42.


----------



## bgiaquin

Those two cut outs in the plow are not very appealing to me.


----------



## ACL

It already has a dent. This was on the trailing end.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

ACL said:


> It already has a dent. This was on the trailing end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_4456.JPG


That's from Ryan's camera when he missed the shot at his station.  :giggle:


----------



## SarahZ

I can't get over how shiny they are. :wub:


----------



## cpamtfan

bgiaquin said:


> Those two cut outs in the plow are not very appealing to me.



I believe those are so they don't rip out the third rail in LIRR territory.


----------



## ACL

SarahZ said:


> I can't get over how shiny they are. :wub:


And they still have that "new engine smell".


----------



## Fan Railer

Image from Jim Kleeman. Shot at  at the Halethorpe MARC station. ACS-64 600 on Train 152:


----------



## SarahZ

AmtrakBlue said:


> ACL said:
> 
> 
> 
> It already has a dent. This was on the trailing end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_4456.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> That's from Ryan's camera when he missed the shot at his station.  :giggle:
Click to expand...


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ziv said:


> Nathanael, what is impressive?
> 
> Would annual budgeting drop below $2Bn?
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> The estimate of $15 million in energy savings per year got me
> 
> thinking and adding things up.
> 
> Amtrak has a rough 2014 to get through, but there's a lot of things
> 
> coming down the pike which will improve Amtrak's bottom line.
> 
> Paying off the Penn Station Mortgage in 2017 is a notable one,
> 
> as are the great mass of ARRA projects which have a 2017 deadline.
> 
> ...of course the much-delayed Viewliner IIs ... the "corridor bilevels".
> 
> ...vaguer things like the various new stations and development of
> 
> urban rail systems which connect to Amtrak or the general "trend"
> 
> towards train travel, but they all seem to be good. ... the financial
> 
> numbers which Congress looks at should look very impressive in 2018.
Click to expand...

Nathanael, here's a back-of-the-envelope calculation. Does it

make sense to you? _Others may comment, too, please._

The ACS-64s are huge for Amtrak. HUGE. Figure each one

of these engines is cash-flow positive on its first day!

Boardman said the new locomotives would pay for themselves 

in about 6 years iirc. The loan to buy them has to be 

repaid over what, 20 years? 

Look at it this way: Total price, $466 million. Call it $480 

for simple round numbers. Assume 20-year loan repayment,

makes it $24 million yearly payment. But "They'll pay for 

themselves in about 6 years." So that's $80 million per year 

total savings (the $15 million savings on the electric bill 

is one part of that) to "pay for itself". That's $80 million 

a year real savings, minus $24 million loan repayment, 

gives free cash flow of $56 million a year! Am I right?

*Wow*. No wonder Joe Boardman was smiling all the way

from Philly to Boston. Soon Amtrak can start using those 

funds to improve the infrastructure on the NEC (a little

something in the pot to pay for the Portal Bridge?), or 

maybe even to buy more Viewliner IIs for the LD trains

that use the NEC. Both. For $50 million a year you could

buy 70 more cars from CAF over three or four years.

Couldn't spend $50 million a year on the Portal Bridge

without commitments for the rest of $1 billion anyway,

and that's a few years off.

And this deal is front-loaded. The biggest savings in 

maintenance will be from retiring the worst of the old,

worn-out, trouble-prone locomotives. First the worst 

one will go, then the next-worst, etc. The last handful 

of older locomotives may not be all so bad and can be

sold, but even then removing them from Amtrak's fleet

will produce savings from fleet commonality, energy

efficiency, better operations from faster acceleration, etc.

It's all good.

-----------

PS. Don't know why I'm seeing a pale blue background on 

this reply, (I did cut and paste most of it), but there you go.


----------



## ronkstevens

Train 152 this morning (2/8) north of Philadelphia:


----------



## engr08

These motors complement the amfleet cars so well, Amtrak purchased a nice one.


----------



## Barciur

Any idea when we might see one on the Keystone?


----------



## SarahZ

I love the red bits up on top. I have no idea what they are called. I'm talking about those oblong, T-shaped things near the ends of the top and the hook-y thing that connects to the caternary. They complement the red stripes.


----------



## PerRock

The pantograph?

peter


----------



## Fan Railer

From CSXTrainBoy815: 600 on 152 @ Metropark


----------



## BK

jis said:


> 171 had to hold for a slightly delayed Acela at Philly and its departure was delayed by 4 mins or so. All that is built into the padding.


No wonder why we caught the Acela leave 30th Street before 171. I was quite surprised!


----------



## SarahZ

PerRock said:


> The pantograph?
> 
> peter


Yeah, that's the hooky-thing.  Thanks!


----------



## edjbox

jis said:


> According to reports on Trainorders:
> 
> 1. 600 will operate on 171 on Friday
> 
> 2. On Saturday and Sunday 600 will be on 152 and 159
> 
> 3. During the week it will be on 184 and 129 (WAS - NYP and back)
> 
> 4. 601 will be accepted on Feb 20 and will be assigned to 184/93 or 129. What does 600 do during the week then, don't know)
> 
> 5. Starting March 1, until order completion Siemens will release 3 new locomotives per month.


Anyone know when the 601-606 will come on-line and what trains they will pull?

Also anyone know the detailed timeline for the AEM-7s to retire? (Last train # and date any particular AEM-7 will make its final run)


----------



## Josh

When should it be back in the Boston area?


----------



## MattW

Fan Railer said:


> Image from Jim Kleeman. Shot at  at the Halethorpe MARC station. ACS-64 600 on Train 152:



This is off-topic, but does anyone know what those 100 signs are on the wire? My first guess would be speed limit, but I thought there were no permanent speed signs on the NEC.


----------



## Woody

Fan Railer said:


> Image from Jim Kleeman. Shot at  at the Halethorpe MARC station. ACS-64 600 on Train 152:


No big thing, but in a more perfect world, I'd have liked for

the sides of the engine to curve out like the sides of the coaches.

But I guess that would be like matching liveries on a train. :wacko:


----------



## Ryan

MattW said:


> This is off-topic, but does anyone know what those 100 signs are on the wire? My first guess would be speed limit, but I thought there were no permanent speed signs on the NEC.


Speed limits.


----------



## engr08

MattW said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Image from Jim Kleeman. Shot at  at the Halethorpe MARC station. ACS-64 600 on Train 152:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is off-topic, but does anyone know what those 100 signs are on the wire? My first guess would be speed limit, but I thought there were no permanent speed signs on the NEC.
Click to expand...

That's a sspeed sign, the curve south of Halthrope station is 100mph on all 3 tracks.


----------



## Ziv

Is there a noticeable change in acceleration with the new locomotives? Going from 5100 to 6400 max kilowatts and from 4300 to 5000 kW continuous (ACS-64 vs. AEM-7's) it seems like you might be able to feel the difference leaving the station. Or do the engineers not use anywhere near full power so the acceleration stays about the same?


----------



## jis

engr08 said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is off-topic, but does anyone know what those 100 signs are on the wire? My first guess would be speed limit, but I thought there were no permanent speed signs on the NEC.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a sspeed sign, the curve south of Halthrope station is 100mph on all 3 tracks.
Click to expand...

But since now there are five classes of trains on the NEC with potentially different speed limits, I assume that this is the speed limit for what is essentially the Amtrak Regional type train?
Is it true that these were originally installed to help managers substituting for striking engineers to be able to operate at proper speed during a PRR strike? And they have stayed put since then?

Of course these days I suppose one gets to read the actual speed limit that applies that specific train on the Cab Signal/ACSES display unit?


----------



## Nathanael

Ziv said:


> Nathanael, what is impressive? Would annual budgeting drop below $2Bn?


Hard to tell because of capital expenditures.
There's a huge amount of "deferred maintenance" in the passenger railroad system -- stuff where it should have been repaired or replaced back in the 1960s but wasn't -- and as a result you can basically sink arbitrarily large amounts of money into that just in order to catch up. You can throw a billion at building ADA-compliant platforms, easily. And of course there's lots of upgrades which really need to be done. The backlog of capital costs is enormous. Luckily, they're often funded through separate budget line items.

This is why I have been looking mostly at Amtrak's operating budget, and to a lesser extent the debt service. That gives some vague sense of the *recurring* expenditures. As someone else here said, we will likely see Amtrak with an overall operating profit when the Acela IIs arrive.

But in the meantime, I predicted that the (operating / debt service) numbers would look a lot better in 2018. It's very hard to put exact numbers on that, because it's hard to estimate things like increased revenues from improved speeds, and without inside information it's hard to estimate things like reduced maintenance costs. But I'll make an attempt to do a back-of-envelope estimate.

Interest expense should shrink from $41 million to less than $10 million by 2018 due to paying off old Warrington-era debt (the Penn Station mortgage interest alone is most of the difference).

"Adjusted loss" (roughly, Federal operating support need -- not including debt service) was $355 million in 2013, but that includes $161 million allocated to the "corridor trains", and from 2014 onward, most of that is paid for by the states. Call that a boost of $150 million (since Amtrak is still going to pick up "some" of it) giving us a federal number of $205 million.

- Subtract $80 million in savings for energy efficiency and other improvements which Amtrak anticipates from the ACS-64s (thanks, Woody, for that quote) to get $125 million.

- I may conservatively estimate that revenues from the NEC will go up by $100 million, without significant increases in costs (this is a 2% growth rate estimate), getting us to $25 million.

- I don't know how to estimate the reduced equipment maintenance costs from retiring the Heritage cars, but let's call it $5 million (probably WAY too small an estimate), getting us down to $20 million.

- Sleeper capacity on the eastern routes should increase by a bit over 50%, without increasing costs much; let's say that revenues increase by 40%, to account for costs and potentially-lowered prices, and that's another $15 million, bringing the federal operating support requirement down to $5 million.

- It's hard to assess the value of new stations in a dozen different locations (Denver, Miami, St. Paul, Grand Rapids, Dearborn, Troy, Rochester, Schenectady, etc.), but with the better local-transit integration, I have to expect that this is worth maybe 1% in revenue on the affected LD routes -- call it another $1.5 million

- Removal of the worst Chicago bottleneck (Englewood) has to be worth 1% in revenue on the affected LD routes (should be more, but don't underestimate the ability of Class Is to delay trains) -- call that another $500K

- Distribution of fixed overhead over more routes (as Illinois and Virginia, and maybe Vermont, start more routes) should trim the federal number down a bit more -- it's so hard to tell how much, but my very rough guesses would make it at least $2 million.

This gives me a federal operating support level of $1 million in 2018, and I think I've estimated conservatively.

Amtrak could be making an "operating profit" in 2018 based purely on what we already know about, before the Acela IIs arrive. Amtrak would still need large amounts of capital funding, of course, and some debt service funding, and a large recurring allocation of sort-of-capital funding to keep up with depreciation (which is very roughly estimated as $600-700 million / year in the balance sheets).

This is without including any meaningful estimate for network effects (apart from the cities with new stations) -- the increased revenue on long-distance trains from having more connecting service. (This is because the LD trains may be coach-space limited or have traffic suppressed by poor OTP.) There's going to be a lot more connecting service.

This is also without including any estimate for "profit sharing" from profitable state-run services (I have no idea what the agreements are there) It's without any estimate for the savings from completion of e-ticketing (elimination of the back office which handles tickets).

It's also without any estimate for things which may not happen like the various proposals in the PIPs (which I would really like to see implemented), or carriage of pets as proposed by Congress (which will generate extra fees and extra riders), and with no estimates for change in gas prices, further collapse of the airline industry, increase in train speeds, etc.

On the other hand, it also assumes roughly stable wages & benefits (none of the "Bush gives the unions more than they asked for" nonsense), and stable On Time Performance (which we are NOT seeing right now). The ARRA projects are mostly supposed to improve OTP, and should do so, but given the general degeneration this year to date, there seem to be deeper problems at work here.



WoodyinNYC said:


> Nathanael, here's a back-of-the-envelope calculation. Does it
> 
> make sense to you?


Yes, it does. Two caveats: I don't know what Boardman is using to get his "six years" number. (It could be overly optimistic predictions of increased revenue or something else stupid.) Second, the loan repayment will be more than $24 million, because the loan *does* charge interest. (I don't know how much. It's low. Maybe 2%, to guess wildly?) That should still be multiple tens of millions in free cash flow.


----------



## Nathanael

Woody said:


> No big thing, but in a more perfect world, I'd have liked for
> 
> the sides of the engine to curve out like the sides of the coaches.
> 
> But I guess that would be like matching liveries on a train. :wacko:


In the long run the stupid airline-imitation Metroliner/Amfleet profile is going to go away. So it might have made more sense to match the "wedge-shaped" Viewliner profile. Probably cheaper to just make the sides flat, though.


----------



## Ziv

Thanks to both Nathanael and Woody for responding.

I am still a bit confused by " This gives me a federal operating support level of $1 million in 2018, and I think I've estimated conservatively. "

A million? Or a billion? Because being negative by a million after years of $2.6Bn in payments is pretty much breaking even in my book. A billion is still a lot of money. Albeit in a good cause. A billion a year to support Amtrak would be and is worthwhile, I just want to be able to link to info that supports my statement that it is worthwhile when I post about Amtrak.

Thanks!


----------



## engr08

Josh said:


> When should it be back in the Boston area?


From what I was hearing it wont be in the Boston area until they get more siemens reps. and im not sure how long that would be. Im guess as soon as more motors come online they will make there way up to Boston.


----------



## MattW

Has anyone heard when these will be used for LD service on the corridor?


----------



## Fan Railer

Ziv said:


> Is there a noticeable change in acceleration with the new locomotives? Going from 5100 to 6400 max kilowatts and from 4300 to 5000 kW continuous (ACS-64 vs. AEM-7's) it seems like you might be able to feel the difference leaving the station. Or do the engineers not use anywhere near full power so the acceleration stays about the same?


Typically, engineers do not use full throttle coming out of stations unless the train is significantly late and there is not enough padding left in the schedule to help it make up time. Otherwise, leaving a station on 2/3 - 3/4 throttle is plenty sufficient to keep the schedule.

Especially with the new, more powerful locomotives, leaving stations constantly on full throttle would put the train ahead of schedule by an amount that would disrupt scheduling and potentially cause conflicts further down the line, given the fact that there are still older, less powerful and slower locomotives operating along the line during this time.

In addition, applying full throttle while the consist is stationary may or may not generate wheel slip. So in order to avoid such an occurrence, you typically would not apply full throttle coming out of a stop unless you knew the tracks were nice and dry, and you weren't coming out of a station that was curved (curved track generates more resistance and increases chances wheel slip during high tractive effort applications).

Also, there are many stations from which the Regional departs where there are speed restrictions in the immediate vicinity of the station, so there would be no point in pushing to full throttle right out of the station.

Normally, full throttle would be used when accelerating out of a speed restriction (from say 30 or 45 mph to full line speed of 100+ mph).


----------



## Anderson

Ziv said:


> Thanks to both Nathanael and Woody for responding.
> 
> I am still a bit confused by " This gives me a federal operating support level of $1 million in 2018, and I think I've estimated conservatively. "
> 
> A million? Or a billion? Because being negative by a million after years of $2.6Bn in payments is pretty much breaking even in my book. A billion is still a lot of money. Albeit in a good cause. A billion a year to support Amtrak would be and is worthwhile, I just want to be able to link to info that supports my statement that it is worthwhile when I post about Amtrak.
> 
> Thanks!


It's $1m that he's referring to. As a rule, the operating subsidy has been under $600m. Amtrak would still be getting a billion or so for capital stuff (track upkeep, bridge replacements, etc.).


----------



## Fan Railer

From walterrich; 600 on her return journey today, lashed up to 159.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is off-topic, but does anyone know what those 100 signs are on the wire? My first guess would be speed limit, but I thought there were no permanent speed signs on the NEC.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a sspeed sign, the curve south of Halthrope station is 100mph on all 3 tracks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But since now there are five classes of trains on the NEC with potentially different speed limits, I assume that this is the speed limit for what is essentially the Amtrak Regional type train?
> Is it true that these were originally installed to help managers substituting for striking engineers to be able to operate at proper speed during a PRR strike? And they have stayed put since then?
> 
> Of course these days I suppose one gets to read the actual speed limit that applies that specific train on the Cab Signal/ACSES display unit?
Click to expand...

Jishnu IINM the speed for curves are Civil limits.. Not displayed in the Cab. But most engineers have run the NEC so much that they know the limits of each curve and section. But with HST's, HHP's, AEM-7's AC and DC and then the new ACS-64 on top of that It's going to be a while before anything major happens with those signs. They are for Regional's or LD trains. One instance is the Curve south of Croydon is I think 105mph for Regional trains and HST's can take the curve at 120mph.


----------



## Anderson

One other thing: The key with getting the "operating subsidy" to zero is that it takes a lot of clubs out of the hands of the Micas of the world. As soon as that disappears, a lot of the language putting strings on Amtrak's operations also start vanishing, while Amtrak can start connecting almost all of their funding to visible projects.


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> Look at it this way: Total price, $466 million. Call it $480 for round numbers. Assume 20-year loan repayment, makes it $24 million yearly payment. But "They'll pay for themselves in about 6 years." So that's $80 million per year total savings (the $15 million savings on the electric bill is one part of that) to "pay for itself". That's $80 million a year real savings, minus $24 million loan repayment, gives free cash flow of $56 million a year! Am I right?


Ok, I think I managed to clean the multiple layers of format codes out of the last paragraph. Deleted the rest to save the trouble of untangling it. WoodyinNYC, please check how you are formatting your posts. The text gets wrapped and it is hard to follow at times.
Let's not get too carried away with how the ACS-64s and, for that matter, the 130 Viewliner IIs are going to do wonders to the operating margins. Amtrak took out a $562.9 million RRIF loan to pay for the ACS-64s, spare parts, facility improvements at a 4.04% interest under a 25 year lease agreement. Amtrak is also paying a 4.424% credit risk premium on amounts advanced under the RRIF loan and they have taken out substantial advances, presumably for progress payments. The crefit risk premiums can be reimbursed when the loan is paid off, so Amtrak may get those payments back someday. The specifics of the RRIF loan are discussed in great detail in the FY12 financial statement.

The FY13 Five Year financial plan shows RRIF loan repayments of $29.1 million in FY15 and growing to $37.1 million in FY17. Keep in mind, Amtrak is replacing AEM-7s which were paid for and 15 HHP-8s which are still under lease with 70 ACS-64s with a $562.9 million debt load. If all goes to plan, the ACS-64s will reduce maintenance and operating costs which will help the books, but I suspect your numbers are way too optimistic.

The 70 ACS-64s and 130 Viewliner IIs represent less than 10% of Amtrack total fleet. The new equipment will help reduce maintenance costs, but the rest of the (aging) fleet will still be there. If Congress does not provide Amtrak with direct funding to buy new rolling stock, Amtrak will have to take on debt to pay for the Acela IIs and after that, more debt to begin replacement of the P-42s. The Amfleets and Superliners can keep going and going if they have to, but the diesel locomotives can't. But the total Amtrak financial picture in the coming years is getting well off-topic from the ACS-64s.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> Jishnu IINM the speed for curves are Civil limits.. Not displayed in the Cab. But most engineers have run the NEC so much that they know the limits of each curve and section. But with HST's, HHP's, AEM-7's AC and DC and then the new ACS-64 on top of that It's going to be a while before anything major happens with those signs. They are for Regional's or LD trains. One instance is the Curve south of Croydon is I think 105mph for Regional trains and HST's can take the curve at 120mph.


But civil limits are displayed in cab. That is the whole point of ACSES. Also civil limits, specially on curves do depend on train class. So those limits posted cannot possibly be for say both Acelas and Regionals.

Edit: Added the quote of the original message which this is a response to.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> But civil limits are displayed in cab. That is the whole point of ACSES. Also civil limits, specially on curves do depend on train class. So those limits posted cannot possibly be for say both Acelas and Regionals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


That's my fault. I forgot that ACSES displayed civil limits.. But limits on AE, NER's, and any LD train or one with a baggage car follow different speeds.

Acela Trainsets with the Tilt Activated are listed as train type "A"

Regionals and Acela sets with the Tilt Disabled are train type "B"

LD trains I believe are listed under "C & D"

Freight is type "E"

That's just from memory of reading the Employee Timetable. When I'm home in 10 days I'll try to remember to look at C and D train types to clear this up more.. They're different but not by much.

I should also add that with the new electrics new cab signals are being installed. When I rode 171 last month Toaster 904 had the new type of Cab Signal. Which surprised me a bit as it's a new Cab Signal in a unit that will shortly be retired... But I would guess that they're installed for engineers to get used to as that's what they will be looking at in the new units.

Old Cab Signal:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689748

New Cab Signal:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689784


----------



## jis

I believe no Amtrak engine (or cab car) leading a train with inoperative ACSES is allowed to depart a terminal. So there is no choice but to have the ACSES PDUs if one has to run at all on the NEC. This has been the case in NEC North for quite a while. It became mandatory in NEC South sometime in 2012 or 2013 AFAIR.


----------



## SarahZ

The video is great. The lights look brighter than usual, though. Are they LED, or is it just the composition of the video? (Or is it just because the locos are so new and shiny?)


----------



## PerRock

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But civil limits are displayed in cab. That is the whole point of ACSES. Also civil limits, specially on curves do depend on train class. So those limits posted cannot possibly be for say both Acelas and Regionals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> That's my fault. I forgot that ACSES displayed civil limits.. But limits on AE, NER's, and any LD train or one with a baggage car follow different speeds.
> 
> Acela Trainsets with the Tilt Activated are listed as train type "A"
> 
> Regionals and Acela sets with the Tilt Disabled are train type "B"
> 
> LD trains I believe are listed under "C & D"
> 
> Freight is type "E"
> 
> That's just from memory of reading the Employee Timetable. When I'm home in 10 days I'll try to remember to look at C and D train types to clear this up more.. They're different but not by much.
> 
> I should also add that with the new electrics new cab signals are being installed. When I rode 171 last month Toaster 904 had the new type of Cab Signal. Which surprised me a bit as it's a new Cab Signal in a unit that will shortly be retired... But I would guess that they're installed for engineers to get used to as that's what they will be looking at in the new units.
> 
> Old Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689748
> 
> New Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689784
Click to expand...

Do the freight trains running on the NEC have cab signals as well?

peter


----------



## jis

PerRock said:


> Do the freight trains running on the NEC have cab signals as well?
> 
> peter


Yes.

But then again freight trains have cab signals on way more than just the NEC. They have them on the RF&P/CSX, they have it on the UP overland route and at all sorts of other places.

See a comprehensive list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_code_cab_signaling


----------



## Nathanael

SarahZ said:


> The video is great. The lights look brighter than usual, though. Are they LED, or is it just the composition of the video? (Or is it just because the locos are so new and shiny?)


They are LEDs, and commercial LEDs tend to be *very* bright when new. That could be it.


----------



## Nathanael

Ziv said:


> Thanks to both Nathanael and Woody for responding.
> 
> I am still a bit confused by " This gives me a federal operating support level of $1 million in 2018, and I think I've estimated conservatively. "
> 
> A million? Or a billion? Because being negative by a million after years of $2.6Bn in payments is pretty much breaking even in my book. A billion is still a lot of money. Albeit in a good cause. A billion a year to support Amtrak would be and is worthwhile, I just want to be able to link to info that supports my statement that it is worthwhile when I post about Amtrak.
> 
> Thanks!


How shall I summarize it?

*Running the trains*, as a whole, should come pretty close to breaking even. (When the state funding is included as revenue.)

But Amtrak will still need a billion each year to replace & upgrade old equipment (including 100-year-old bridges, 50-year-old transformers, old non-ADA-compliant platforms, etc), and to pay old debts.

Is that clear?


----------



## afigg

Nathanael said:


> ...
> 
> - It's hard to assess the value of new stations in a dozen different locations (Denver, Miami, St. Paul, Grand Rapids, Dearborn, Troy, Rochester, Schenectady, etc.), but with the better local-transit integration, I have to expect that this is worth maybe 1% in revenue on the affected LD routes -- call it another $1.5 million
> 
> - Removal of the worst Chicago bottleneck (Englewood) has to be worth 1% in revenue on the affected LD routes (should be more, but don't underestimate the ability of Class Is to delay trains) -- call that another $500K
> 
> This gives me a federal operating support level of $1 million in 2018, and I think I've estimated conservatively.
> 
> Amtrak could be making an "operating profit" in 2018 based purely on what we already know about, before the Acela IIs arrive. Amtrak would still need large amounts of capital funding, of course, and some debt service funding, and a large recurring allocation of sort-of-capital funding to keep up with depreciation (which is very roughly estimated as $600-700 million / year in the balance sheets).
> 
> ...
> 
> On the other hand, it also assumes roughly stable wages & benefits (none of the "Bush gives the unions more than they asked for" nonsense), and stable On Time Performance (which we are NOT seeing right now). The ARRA projects are mostly supposed to improve OTP, and should do so, but given the general degeneration this year to date, there seem to be deeper problems at work here.


While Amtrak will generate increased revenue, expenses will go up as well. Wages & benefits, fuel costs, capital costs (interest rates will eventually go back to a more normal level as the economy grows), inflation, etc.
I agree that with the funds and track, station projects and rolling stock acquisitions and state funded projects that are underway or in the pipeline that Amtrak will see a wave of improvements over the next 4 years through 2017-2018. The small wave of rebuilt/new stations with local rail transit connections will help to grow intercity passenger rail services over time. The problem is that except for the TIGER grant program and modest annual funding to Amtrak, the surge in federal funding from 2008-2010 has dried up. It will be a fight to get the federal capital funds needed just for the NEC, let alone the rest of the system over the next 2-3 years or longer.

To get this discussion back to the ACS-64s, I ran a simplistic calculation for the $562.9M RRIF loan with a 4.04% interest rate over 25 years. Ignoring fees, extra charges, credit risk premiums, the effect of a quarterly payment schedule, loan payments would be ~$35.8 million a year. Which works out to $895 million in total payments over 25 years, so that is the nominal total cost in current year dollars for the ACS-64s. Provided that the lease is not paid off early which with normal inflation might make sense to do in 10-15 years.


----------



## jis

Also keep in mind that while we have been focused on PRIIA 209, we have been ignoring PRIIA 212. When the PRIIA 212 issues are fully addressed by the NEC Commission it is very likely that the Commuter Agencies will be paying considerably more to Amtrak for trackage and power charges on the NEC. Though I will admit, at the present time it is somewhat hard to figure out its effect overall. But in general, the capital maintenance grants needed for the NEC should go down significantly. This should allow greater focus on capital asset replacement/rehab grants.


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> (interest rates will eventually go back to a more normal level as the economy grows), inflation, etc.


Those won't happen before 2018. I follow the macroeconomy as part of the way I make my living. We're going to be in a zero-interest-rate near-deflationary environment well into 2018. (Barring a very dramatic political change in which someone like Bernie Sanders becomes President -- which seems unlikely.)
Economic historians have compared this to the "Long Depression" of 1873-79 and the lack of recovery after it.

Anyway, enough depressing off-topic economic commentary...


----------



## Anderson

Nathanael said:


> Nathanael, on 09 Feb 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> afigg, on 09 Feb 2014 - 12:02 PM, saidinterest rates will eventually go back to a more normal level as the economy grows), inflation, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Those won't happen before 2018. I follow the macroeconomy as part of the way I make my living. We're going to be in a zero-interest-rate near-deflationary environment well into 2018. (Barring a very dramatic political change in which someone like Bernie Sanders becomes President -- which seems unlikely.)
> Economic historians have compared this to the "Long Depression" of 1873-79 and the lack of recovery after it.
> 
> Anyway, enough depressing off-topic economic commentary...
Click to expand...

Just because the Fed sits on rates doesn't mean they'll actually stay where the Fed wants them. If inflation starts running 4-5%, there's a real risk that banks start forcing up loan rates and the like, since that's likely to trigger at least some capital flight into the equity markets...not to mention possible overseas capital flight in search of better rates. But I digress...

It's hard to make accurate guesses at a lot of these factors, but I can definitely see a scenario where Amtrak's operating grant can drop to $0 by 2020 or so with the Acela IIs. Whether it can do so before the Acela IIs come into play is a good question. I'd point out that you seem to have neglected to mention the effect of the multi-state bilevel cars, which are likely to trigger knock-on effects elsewhere in the system...but in a few cases you might also be over-estimating some effects (i.e. the state payments...IIRC, Amtrak is still planning for $75-90m/yr in net costs there).


----------



## Empire Service

This was taken today (2/9/14)


----------



## HAL

jis said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is off-topic, but does anyone know what those 100 signs are on the wire? My first guess would be speed limit, but I thought there were no permanent speed signs on the NEC.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a sspeed sign, the curve south of Halthrope station is 100mph on all 3 tracks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But since now there are five classes of trains on the NEC with potentially different speed limits, I assume that this is the speed limit for what is essentially the Amtrak Regional type train?
> Is it true that these were originally installed to help managers substituting for striking engineers to be able to operate at proper speed during a PRR strike? And they have stayed put since then?
> 
> Of course these days I suppose one gets to read the actual speed limit that applies that specific train on the Cab Signal/ACSES display unit?
Click to expand...

Yes, those signs were posted so managers could run the trains during a strike. Yes, that is the speed that applies to a regional train or long distance train. The speed for an Acela with tilt is 120 on 2 and 3 track. Yes, speed limit will be displayed on ACSES display.


----------



## jacorbett70

Number 605 has been in the 30th Street yard lately:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/12417697765/


----------



## HAL

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But civil limits are displayed in cab. That is the whole point of ACSES. Also civil limits, specially on curves do depend on train class. So those limits posted cannot possibly be for say both Acelas and Regionals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> That's my fault. I forgot that ACSES displayed civil limits.. But limits on AE, NER's, and any LD train or one with a baggage car follow different speeds.
> 
> Acela Trainsets with the Tilt Activated are listed as train type "A"
> 
> Regionals and Acela sets with the Tilt Disabled are train type "B"
> 
> LD trains I believe are listed under "C & D"
> 
> Freight is type "E"
> 
> That's just from memory of reading the Employee Timetable. When I'm home in 10 days I'll try to remember to look at C and D train types to clear this up more.. They're different but not by much.
> 
> I should also add that with the new electrics new cab signals are being installed. When I rode 171 last month Toaster 904 had the new type of Cab Signal. Which surprised me a bit as it's a new Cab Signal in a unit that will shortly be retired... But I would guess that they're installed for engineers to get used to as that's what they will be looking at in the new units.
> 
> Old Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689748
> 
> New Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689784
Click to expand...

A is Acela with tilt. B is Acela without tilt, Regionals. C is all other trains (like commuter trains), D is trains with Baggage cars


----------



## ronkstevens

jacorbett70 said:


> Number 605 has been in the 30th Street yard lately:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/12417697765/


It's amazing how old and tired the AEM7's look next to the shiny and new loco's


----------



## edjbox

HAL said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But civil limits are displayed in cab. That is the whole point of ACSES. Also civil limits, specially on curves do depend on train class. So those limits posted cannot possibly be for say both Acelas and Regionals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> That's my fault. I forgot that ACSES displayed civil limits.. But limits on AE, NER's, and any LD train or one with a baggage car follow different speeds.
> 
> Acela Trainsets with the Tilt Activated are listed as train type "A"
> 
> Regionals and Acela sets with the Tilt Disabled are train type "B"
> 
> LD trains I believe are listed under "C & D"
> 
> Freight is type "E"
> 
> That's just from memory of reading the Employee Timetable. When I'm home in 10 days I'll try to remember to look at C and D train types to clear this up more.. They're different but not by much.
> 
> I should also add that with the new electrics new cab signals are being installed. When I rode 171 last month Toaster 904 had the new type of Cab Signal. Which surprised me a bit as it's a new Cab Signal in a unit that will shortly be retired... But I would guess that they're installed for engineers to get used to as that's what they will be looking at in the new units.
> 
> Old Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689748
> 
> New Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689784
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A is Acela with tilt. B is Acela without tilt, Regionals. C is all other trains (like commuter trains), D is trains with Baggage cars
Click to expand...

Which Acelas don't have tilt? Why would it be disabled?


----------



## Ryan

All of the Acelas have tilt. It would be disabled if it were broken. It's also disabled in Metro North country because the tracks are too close together.


----------



## NE933

Now, when are those roof shrouds being installed? That would make for a nice, smooth unbroken roofline but alse a protection to shield or deflect airborn material?


----------



## Acela150

No roof shrouds are being installed.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jacorbett70

Today's 184 with the ACS-64 600 started WAS 48 minutes late per train status. I don't know why, maybe Amtrak has a Washington problem.  ... It lost more time between BAL and WIL but that appears to be simply because it was stuck behind some train traffic. Maybe there was a traffic issue down by WAS. 184 is back in the saddle flying through Philly... http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/12439824334/


----------



## Ryan

I realized that after posting my tale of woe that I didn't come back and share my success on a COLD(!) Saturday morning:





ACS-64 Take 2 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr


----------



## MrFSS

RyanS said:


> I realized that after posting my tale of woe that I didn't come back and share my success on a COLD(!) Saturday morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 Take 2 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr


Nice catch!


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I believe no Amtrak engine (or cab car) leading a train with inoperative ACSES is allowed to depart a terminal. So there is no choice but to have the ACSES PDUs if one has to run at all on the NEC. This has been the case in NEC North for quite a while. It became mandatory in NEC South sometime in 2012 or 2013 AFAIR.


That's 100% correct.. That's why the Keystone set ended up in Cynwyd. The cab signals in the Cab Car were inoperable.



PerRock said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But civil limits are displayed in cab. That is the whole point of ACSES. Also civil limits, specially on curves do depend on train class. So those limits posted cannot possibly be for say both Acelas and Regionals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> That's my fault. I forgot that ACSES displayed civil limits.. But limits on AE, NER's, and any LD train or one with a baggage car follow different speeds.
> 
> Acela Trainsets with the Tilt Activated are listed as train type "A"
> 
> Regionals and Acela sets with the Tilt Disabled are train type "B"
> 
> LD trains I believe are listed under "C & D"
> 
> Freight is type "E"
> 
> That's just from memory of reading the Employee Timetable. When I'm home in 10 days I'll try to remember to look at C and D train types to clear this up more.. They're different but not by much.
> 
> I should also add that with the new electrics new cab signals are being installed. When I rode 171 last month Toaster 904 had the new type of Cab Signal. Which surprised me a bit as it's a new Cab Signal in a unit that will shortly be retired... But I would guess that they're installed for engineers to get used to as that's what they will be looking at in the new units.
> 
> Old Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689748
> 
> New Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689784
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do the freight trains running on the NEC have cab signals as well?
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

Freight trains must be equipped with them to run the NEC. Cab signals are big on the Pittsburgh Line for NS. Most NS engines have them although some do not.



edjbox said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> But civil limits are displayed in cab. That is the whole point of ACSES. Also civil limits, specially on curves do depend on train class. So those limits posted cannot possibly be for say both Acelas and Regionals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> That's my fault. I forgot that ACSES displayed civil limits.. But limits on AE, NER's, and any LD train or one with a baggage car follow different speeds.
> 
> Acela Trainsets with the Tilt Activated are listed as train type "A"
> 
> Regionals and Acela sets with the Tilt Disabled are train type "B"
> 
> LD trains I believe are listed under "C & D"
> 
> Freight is type "E"
> 
> That's just from memory of reading the Employee Timetable. When I'm home in 10 days I'll try to remember to look at C and D train types to clear this up more.. They're different but not by much.
> 
> I should also add that with the new electrics new cab signals are being installed. When I rode 171 last month Toaster 904 had the new type of Cab Signal. Which surprised me a bit as it's a new Cab Signal in a unit that will shortly be retired... But I would guess that they're installed for engineers to get used to as that's what they will be looking at in the new units.
> 
> Old Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689748
> 
> New Cab Signal:
> 
> http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3689784
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A is Acela with tilt. B is Acela without tilt, Regionals. C is all other trains (like commuter trains), D is trains with Baggage cars
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which Acelas don't have tilt? Why would it be disabled?
Click to expand...

All the Acela sets tilt. It becomes disabled on Metro-North property. And must be confirmed by radio to MNRR dispatch. Other cases are snow build up, a fault in the system, etc.


----------



## Fan Railer

Laying on the horn:


----------



## Fan Railer

From RR.net:



> BuddSilverliner269 wrote:
> 
> On Friday, February 14th, there will be a NYP-WAS 18-car train pulled by the 601 to satisfy contract requirements.
> On Tuesday February 18th there will be a WAS-BOS shakedown run and on Wednesday, February 19th it will return to WAS. If testing goes well, it will be conditionally accepted.
> 
> The 601 is expected to be placed into revenue service on Thursday, February 20th.


----------



## jis

edjbox said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> 
> A is Acela with tilt. B is Acela without tilt, Regionals. C is all other trains (like commuter trains), D is trains with Baggage cars
> 
> 
> 
> Which Acelas don't have tilt? Why would it be disabled?
Click to expand...

Acelas with the tilt system turned off don't have tilt. The tilt system may be turned off if there is a defect in the tilt system. The ACSES system in Acelas detect this fact and automatically adjust the train class to B when it senses the tilt system to be off. This results in the B class civil speed limits being enforced rather than the A class ones.


----------



## Anderson

Fan Railer said:


> Fan Railer, on 11 Feb 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:
> 
> From RR.net:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote
> BuddSilverliner269 wrote:
> 
> On Friday, February 14th, there will be a NYP-WAS 18-car train pulled by the 601 to satisfy contract requirements.On Tuesday February 18th there will be a WAS-BOS shakedown run and on Wednesday, February 19th it will return to WAS. If testing goes well, it will be conditionally accepted.
> 
> The 601 is expected to be placed into revenue service on Thursday, February 20th.
Click to expand...

Ooohhh...an 18-car train on the NEC? Man, I wish I could see that!

(You have no idea how awesome that sight sounds to me...just the _idea _of an 1100-plus seat Regional...wow...)


----------



## Nathanael

Anderson said:


> If inflation starts running 4-5%,


Won't. Not with unemployment at this level. Can't get inflation without wage inflation. Can't get wage inflation when you can hire cheaper, unemployed workers.


----------



## bgiaquin

There is one important question that has not yet been asked: How long do they expect these new locos to last? Any Guesses? I would make my guess at 35-40 years.


----------



## afigg

I hope someone gets a good video of the 18 car test train passing by at > 110 mph. There will not be many opportunities to see that long a train pulled by an ACS-64. If there is a good long broadside shot, we should count the number of cafe cars in the consist.


----------



## afigg

bgiaquin said:


> There is one important question that has not yet been asked: How long do they expect these new locos to last? Any Guesses? I would make my guess at 35-40 years.


The Fleet Strategy plan has a baseline commercial operating lifespan of 25 yeaes for electric locomotives. Of course, circumstances may result in a 30 year or longer lifespan in use.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Anderson said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fan Railer, on 11 Feb 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:
> 
> From RR.net:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote
> 
> *BuddSilverliner269 wrote:*On Friday, February 14th, there will be a NYP-WAS 18-car train pulled by the 601 to satisfy contract requirements.
> 
> On Tuesday February 18th there will be a WAS-BOS shakedown run and on Wednesday, February 19th it will return to WAS. If testing goes well, it will be conditionally accepted.
> 
> The 601 is expected to be placed into revenue service on Thursday, February 20th.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ooohhh...an 18-car train on the NEC? Man, I wish I could see that!
> (You have no idea how awesome that sight sounds to me...just the _idea _of an 1100-plus seat Regional...wow...)
Click to expand...

The Autumn Express was 16 cars. I got a video of the Sunday run.


----------



## Anderson

Nathanael said:


> Nathanael, on 11 Feb 2014 - 4:51 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson, on 09 Feb 2014 - 1:17 PM, said:If inflation starts running 4-5%,
> 
> 
> 
> Won't. Not with unemployment at this level. Can't get inflation without wage inflation. Can't get wage inflation when you can hire cheaper, unemployed workers.
Click to expand...

Oh yes you can...just ask the Brits in the 70s. It's called cost-push inflation. All you need to trigger that is something to push up the costs of one or more major categories of commodities and/or a major, sustained slide in the dollar while commodity prices remain static in another major currency.


----------



## Anderson

afigg said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is one important question that has not yet been asked: How long do they expect these new locos to last? Any Guesses? I would make my guess at 35-40 years.
> 
> 
> 
> The Fleet Strategy plan has a baseline commercial operating lifespan of 25 yeaes for electric locomotives. Of course, circumstances may result in a 30 year or longer lifespan in use.
Click to expand...

If the FSP assumes 25 years, I think 30-35 years is probably a safe guess.


----------



## Fan Railer

Good reminder: the 18 car train is a test train, and will double as an equipment move to take the 14 car chamber of commerce train (scheduled to run round trip this wednesday, 2/12/14) + 4 more cars back down to ivy city, WAS. They will be testing acceleration, braking, and HEP, to verify that contract requirements were met.


----------



## Ryan

Anderson said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael, on 11 Feb 2014 - 4:51 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson, on 09 Feb 2014 - 1:17 PM, said:
> 
> If inflation starts running 4-5%,
> 
> 
> 
> Won't. Not with unemployment at this level. Can't get inflation without wage inflation. Can't get wage inflation when you can hire cheaper, unemployed workers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh yes you can...just ask the Brits in the 70s. It's called cost-push inflation. All you need to trigger that is something to push up the costs of one or more major categories of commodities and/or a major, sustained slide in the dollar while commodity prices remain static in another major currency.
Click to expand...

Now that we have a non-rail related forum, I'd be interested in reading a thread where this is explored in a little more detail. I don't know enough about the topic to contribute, but I'd bet I'd learn from the discussion.


----------



## NE933

afigg said:


> I hope someone gets a good video of the 18 car test train passing by at > 110 mph. There will not be many opportunities to see that long a train pulled by an ACS-64.


Well, our hope is that somesoon soon, we'll see a return of 18 car trains on a daily basis, especially during busy seasons. A single E60 would power swelled Crescents, Silver Stars, and Silver Meteors of 18 cars regularly. And I've heard of, and seen, occasionally an extra one or two.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

RyanS said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael, on 11 Feb 2014 - 4:51 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson, on 09 Feb 2014 - 1:17 PM, said:If inflation starts running 4-5%,
> 
> 
> 
> Won't. Not with unemployment at this level. Can't get inflation without wage inflation. Can't get wage inflation when you can hire cheaper, unemployed workers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh yes you can...just ask the Brits in the 70s. It's called cost-push inflation. All you need to trigger that is something to push up the costs of one or more major categories of commodities and/or a major, sustained slide in the dollar while commodity prices remain static in another major currency.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now that we have a non-rail related forum, I'd be interested in reading a thread where this is explored in a little more detail. I don't know enough about the topic to contribute, but I'd bet I'd learn from the discussion.
Click to expand...

Don't count on it. It's too free thinking, and not allowed by the censors, ER, I mean moderators.


----------



## WhoozOn1st

Green Maned Lion said:


> Don't count on it. It's too free thinking, and not allowed by the censors, ER, I mean moderators.


Surely you've heard the latest, GML: there's an offer to let us pay for the privilege of being censored by the Pollyannas - oh yes, _moderators. _I feel so honored.


----------



## Nathanael

Anderson said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael, on 11 Feb 2014 - 4:51 PM, said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson, on 09 Feb 2014 - 1:17 PM, said:If inflation starts running 4-5%,
> 
> 
> 
> Won't. Not with unemployment at this level. Can't get inflation without wage inflation. Can't get wage inflation when you can hire cheaper, unemployed workers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh yes you can...just ask the Brits in the 70s. It's called cost-push inflation. All you need to trigger that is something to push up the costs of one or more major categories of commodities and/or a major, sustained slide in the dollar while commodity prices remain static in another major currency.
Click to expand...

Theoretically possible, but with *proper* cost-push inflation it'll feed into wages, and the mechanism (automatic inflation-linked wage increases) is largely missing in the US right now, so it won't happen in the near future. High unemployment will keep wages down because people demanding raises can be replaced.

You can also get cost-push stagflation, as can happen with oil price spikes, but that behaves differently -- prices go up, but wages don't. Which means it sucks more for the average person, but from the POV of Amtrak means labor costs don't go up (though diesel costs would). That might happen.

You can also get deflationary interest rate spikes due to distrust of repayment ability, but we kind of already have that. Although it could get worse. Anyway, enough macro...


----------



## AlanB

Green Maned Lion said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we have a non-rail related forum, I'd be interested in reading a thread where this is explored in a little more detail. I don't know enough about the topic to contribute, but I'd bet I'd learn from the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't count on it. It's too free thinking, and not allowed by the censors, ER, I mean moderators.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between a civil discussion on economic theories and a heavily charged political post that calls everyone "idiots"; uses banned words; and is generally condescending to everyone. The former is welcomed in the special forum for that type of discussion; the latter is not.


----------



## AlanB

WhoozOn1st said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't count on it. It's too free thinking, and not allowed by the censors, ER, I mean moderators.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely you've heard the latest, GML: there's an offer to let us pay for the privilege of being censored by the Pollyannas - oh yes, _moderators. _I feel so honored.
Click to expand...

Well there is an easy fix for that my friend. Don't contribute! And convince everyone else not to contribute too.

Then there won't be a forum to even post in and therefore you won't need to worry about being censored.

This isn't an easy job trying to balance the likes & dis-likes of several hundred people and trying to keep all sides happy. In fact, it is near impossible IMHO! But nonetheless I try very hard to do that and to guide the staff to do the same. And we generally give considerable leeway on many things. Things that at most other rail forums would be gone in a second and might even see one getting banned for life.


----------



## Anderson

Ryan,

I'll let you start the thread, but I'd be more than happy to engage in a discussion on economics over in the open discussion forum.


----------



## jis

I find it truly ironical that some people are sitting in a thread on ACS-64 complaining about over moderation while talking about things that have nothing to do with ACS-64.

So getting back to topic, now we are hearing that the 18 car contract verification special may be pulled by either 601 or 602. So we won't know for sure which one until it happens I suppose.

Meanwhile 601 is still scheduled to enter service on the 20th.


----------



## engr08

605 is in SSYD, I'm guessing for mechanical training.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I find it truly ironical that some people are sitting in a thread on ACS-64 complaining about over moderation while talking about things that have nothing to do with ACS-64.
> 
> So getting back to topic, now we are hearing that the 18 car contract verification special may be pulled by either 601 or 602. So we won't know for sure which one until it happens I suppose.
> 
> Meanwhile 601 is still scheduled to enter service on the 20th.


IINM the 18 cars will come from the NJ COC train. They're just tacking on an extra 4 cars. From the original 14.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Fan Railer

Lol this sucks... news from the Amtrak NEC railfans page as conveyed by Budd:



> Due to the cancellation of the New Jersey Chamber of Commerce train, the 18 car testing with ACS-64 #601 has been annulled indefinitely.
> 
> The scheduled shakedown tests will go forth as planned.
> 
> On Wednesday, February 19th, ACS-64 #601 will be conditionally accepted and released into revenue service after successful testing BOS-WAS.
> 
> On Tuesday, February 25th, ACS-64 #602 will be conditionally accepted and released into revenue service after successful testing HBG-WAS.


----------



## Choo_choo_cat

I wonder how many places there are on the NEC that could support testing to 125 mph with an 18 car train. Such a train would need a little over 8 minutes and 12 miles to reach 125 mph using the maximum short-term horsepower rating. Are there any places without speed restrictions or grades? Remember, the specification is on the level--the slightest grade would cause the train to fall short of 125 mph. That's why they normally run shorter trains.


----------



## ACS-64

ACS-64 Heads Up on 130/129 for Thursday


----------



## Choo_choo_cat

Choo_choo_cat said:


> I wonder how many places there are on the NEC that could support testing to 125 mph with an 18 car train. Such a train would need a little over 8 minutes and 12 miles to reach 125 mph using the maximum short-term horsepower rating. Are there any places without speed restrictions or grades? Remember, the specification is on the level--the slightest grade would cause the train to fall short of 125 mph. That's why they normally run shorter trains.


Sorry, I meant 125 mph stretches of a dozen miles without slow orders or grades.


----------



## Acela150

Choo_choo_cat said:


> I wonder how many places there are on the NEC that could support testing to 125 mph with an 18 car train. Such a train would need a little over 8 minutes and 12 miles to reach 125 mph using the maximum short-term horsepower rating. Are there any places without speed restrictions or grades? Remember, the specification is on the level--the slightest grade would cause the train to fall short of 125 mph. That's why they normally run shorter trains.


The new electric is designed to haul 18 cars at get upto 125MPH in 8 Minutes. Distance doesn't really matter. The "racetrack" in NJ between Trenton and New Brunswick holds trains at upto 135MPH everyday. There's the trackage in RI and MA where AE hits 150MPH everyday.


----------



## Acela150

ACS-64 said:


> ACS-64 Heads Up on 130/129 for Thursday


So 600 will be on 130 and 129?? I thought that from previous 184 turned for 129??


----------



## ACS-64

Acela150 said:


> ACS-64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 Heads Up on 130/129 for Thursday
> 
> 
> 
> So 600 will be on 130 and 129?? I thought that from previous 184 turned for 129??
Click to expand...

184 is canceled Thursday. 600 departs WAS at 6:30AM on 130, turns in NY and departs at 4:42PM on 129. Subject to further cancelations/adjustments of course.


----------



## Acela150

Thanks.


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> Choo_choo_cat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how many places there are on the NEC that could support testing to 125 mph with an 18 car train. Such a train would need a little over 8 minutes and 12 miles to reach 125 mph using the maximum short-term horsepower rating. Are there any places without speed restrictions or grades? Remember, the specification is on the level--the slightest grade would cause the train to fall short of 125 mph. That's why they normally run shorter trains.
> 
> 
> 
> The new electric is designed to haul 18 cars at get upto 125MPH in 8 Minutes. Distance doesn't really matter. The "racetrack" in NJ between Trenton and New Brunswick holds trains at upto 135MPH everyday. There's the trackage in RI and MA where AE hits 150MPH everyday.
Click to expand...

Distance does matter up to a point. If the train enters a 125 section that is shorter than the distance it would take for the train to reach 125 from whatever speed it was traveling, the train would not hit 125.


----------



## Fan Railer

From Rendon; 600 flying through the snow towing 130 past Jersey Ave:


----------



## engr08

This motor has a nice sounds when it takes off, something kinda like the Alp46a.


----------



## jis

engr08 said:


> This motor has a nice sounds when it takes off, something kinda like the Alp46a.


It's the IGBT power inverters in action.


----------



## Ziv

Was that a "howdy" toot? It wasn't a grade crossing horn sequence.

I think the engineer saw Rendon/videographer but the train was going so fast his "I see you" toot happened after the locomotive was past him. LOL!

I thought the ACS-64 looked kind of industrial plain at first, but it is growing on me. Being shot at speed in the snow didn't hurt either. Kind of a railroad beer goggles effect.



Fan Railer said:


> From Rendon; 600 flying through the snow towing 130 past Jersey Ave:


----------



## Acela150

Fan Railer said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Choo_choo_cat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how many places there are on the NEC that could support testing to 125 mph with an 18 car train. Such a train would need a little over 8 minutes and 12 miles to reach 125 mph using the maximum short-term horsepower rating. Are there any places without speed restrictions or grades? Remember, the specification is on the level--the slightest grade would cause the train to fall short of 125 mph. That's why they normally run shorter trains.
> 
> 
> 
> The new electric is designed to haul 18 cars at get upto 125MPH in 8 Minutes. Distance doesn't really matter. The "racetrack" in NJ between Trenton and New Brunswick holds trains at upto 135MPH everyday. There's the trackage in RI and MA where AE hits 150MPH everyday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Distance does matter up to a point. If the train enters a 125 section that is shorter than the distance it would take for the train to reach 125 from whatever speed it was traveling, the train would not hit 125.
Click to expand...

I think that Amtrak would be smart enough to start attempting 125MPH on a stretch where they know the unit could attain the speed.



jis said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This motor has a nice sounds when it takes off, something kinda like the Alp46a.
> 
> 
> 
> It's the IGBT power inverters in action.
Click to expand...

I'm gunna sound a bit stupid but, what exactly is "IGBT power"?? I really don't understand what it is.. TIA.



Ziv said:


> Was that a "howdy" toot? It wasn't a grade crossing horn sequence.
> 
> I think the engineer saw Rendon/videographer but the train was going so fast his "I see you" toot happened after the locomotive was past him. LOL!
> 
> I thought the ACS-64 looked kind of industrial plain at first, but it is growing on me. Being shot at speed in the snow didn't hurt either. Kind of a railroad beer goggles effect.
> 
> 
> From Rendon; 600 flying through the snow towing 130 past Jersey Ave:



Rendon is frequently out and about on the NEC taking pictures and videos of Amtrak, NJT, and CSAO trains. His son is a huge train fan and engineers toot at them where ever they are. In some of his videos are NWK you can hear crews talking to them. I've met them once and are great rail fans!


----------



## Fan Railer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated-gate_bipolar_transistor


----------



## George Harris

gmushial said:


> Do electric locos have less traction, ie, only able to start a shorter length consist, a lighter consist? The thought being: a diesel/electric loco has a large/heavy engine plus the weight of the fuel to feed it, a large heavy generator and the traction motors + the mass to support such; an electric only has the traction motors... and I assume (I know, dangerous), that the ability of a engine to get a consist moving is a function of both its hp + its ability to get that hp to the rails (traction)... or is this a moot point in that 602 et al will only be motivating lighter commuter trains?


The ability of an engine to get a train moving is entirely weight on powered axles. However, that is of no significance in passenger service after a couple of miles per hour. It can be of a good deal more significance in heavy haul freight service where maintiaining any particular speed is not considered important and on steep grades where you would be moving at low speeds.


----------



## Choo_choo_cat

George Harris said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do electric locos have less traction, ie, only able to start a shorter length consist, a lighter consist? The thought being: a diesel/electric loco has a large/heavy engine plus the weight of the fuel to feed it, a large heavy generator and the traction motors + the mass to support such; an electric only has the traction motors... and I assume (I know, dangerous), that the ability of a engine to get a consist moving is a function of both its hp + its ability to get that hp to the rails (traction)... or is this a moot point in that 602 et al will only be motivating lighter commuter trains?
> 
> 
> 
> The ability of an engine to get a train moving is entirely weight on powered axles. However, that is of no significance in passenger service after a couple of miles per hour. It can be of a good deal more significance in heavy haul freight service where maintiaining any particular speed is not considered important and on steep grades where you would be moving at low speeds.
Click to expand...

Another factor to consider is that the diesel-electric locos sold in north america have NA manufacturers, whereas the electric locos have all been derived from European units, where the axle load is about 22t, compared to 35-39t in NA. Even in the NA versions of the electric locos (where they have to have stronger frames due to FRA regulations), the axle load is 25-27t, about 30% less than the diesel locos. If you compare diesel and electric locos in Europe (or Asia), they have comparable weights.


----------



## PerRock

Early on in a thread here about the ACS-64 (probably this one) it was mentioned that it looks weird with the trucks set so far back from the front of the engine... Now the ACS-64 is based off from the Eurosprinter line (ES64-U4/6) however I don't think that those look odd with the position the trucks are at.

Today it dawned on my why; it's the plow. The ES64 plow is located just in front of the trucks, kinda filling in that area. The ACS-64 on the other hand has it's plow located all the way out on the nose, giving the undercarriage a sort of open spot in between which looks odd. Here are some comparison shots. The first is an ES64-U6, which I've repainted to look like ACS-64 #602. The second is an actual ACS-64.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/PerRock/PerRock_20140214_0003.jpg~original

http://bostonherald.com/sites/default/files/media/ap/ca4a33541f8c437db756b9cc7e1d09fe.jpg

peter


----------



## Acela150

IINM some components are based off of Eurosprinters.


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> IINM some components are based off of Eurosprinters.


Yep, components based off of the Eurosprinters and the Vectron (the truck is derived directly from the one used on the Vectron).


----------



## Ziv

George, is there a way to spray sand on the tracks to increase traction? It sounds stupid but I thought that there was a way old Great Northern locomotives could do that, but in retrospect, it sounds odd.

On edit: Google is your friend, Ziv. So they do have sand sprayers on most locos. Will the ACS-64 use sand in rainy conditions when the rail is slick to keep their acceleration close to normal? How often do locos use sand to improve traction? I would like to see it done, or rather, perhaps, hear it done.



George Harris said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do electric locos have less traction, ie, only able to start a shorter length consist, a lighter consist? The thought being: a diesel/electric loco has a large/heavy engine plus the weight of the fuel to feed it, a large heavy generator and the traction motors + the mass to support such; an electric only has the traction motors... and I assume (I know, dangerous), that the ability of a engine to get a consist moving is a function of both its hp + its ability to get that hp to the rails (traction)... or is this a moot point in that 602 et al will only be motivating lighter commuter trains?
> 
> 
> 
> The ability of an engine to get a train moving is entirely weight on powered axles. However, that is of no significance in passenger service after a couple of miles per hour. It can be of a good deal more significance in heavy haul freight service where maintiaining any particular speed is not considered important and on steep grades where you would be moving at low speeds.
Click to expand...


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I'm gunna sound a bit stupid but, what exactly is "IGBT power"?? I really don't understand what it is.. TIA.


First of all let me assure you there is no question that is stupid. Asking a question is an admirable quality indicating that one is aware of ones limits of knowledge and is willing to learn.
IGBT (Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor) is a type of electronic device which can switch the flow of electricity off and on at controlled variable rates. This property together with some additional circuitry makes them highly suitable for use in Inverters that are used to produce AC from DC at variable frequency that can be controlled precisely. They can also handle quite large currents (up to ~1,000Amp) at many thousand volts, thus making them suitable for use in power electronics that is used in the drive systems for AC motors in modern electric engines.

In modern engines the power that is drawn from the catenary is first converted to DC at a suitable intermediate voltage, something around 3,000v which drives a common DC link bus. Then all the power consumers feed off of this bus through inverters to deliver the right form of AC for each specific use. This is what makes versatile power inverters that are compact very important, and IGBT is the enabling technology for such. Of course one of the major consumers are the traction motors that provide the motive power for the engine to move a train (and itself).

A typical module capable of handling over a thousand Amps of current at upto 3300V looks like this:







This particular one is a Mitsubishi module. But there are similar modules in the ACS-64 for driving each traction motor.

As it turns out, even though HEP requires a constant frequency AC, the inverter that is used for HEP is essentially the same as a traction inverter but in the HEP mode of operation is controlled differently. The reason this is done is that in case of a traction inverter failure, the HEP one can be used as replacement and conversely in case of a HEP inverter failure a traction inverter can be used as substitute. The latter of course reduces the traction power output of the engine, but that may be tolerable in many cases in order to keep the passengers from freezing or getting a heat stroke.

You can read up more about it starting from the Wiki article on IGBT which can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated-gate_bipolar_transistor.

Hope that helps clarify more than further confuse.


----------



## jis

Ziv said:


> George, is there a way to spray sand on the tracks to increase traction? It sounds stupid but I thought that there was a way old Great Northern locomotives could do that, but in retrospect, it sounds odd.
> 
> On edit: Google is your friend, Ziv. So they do have sand sprayers on most locos. Will the ACS-64 use sand in rainy conditions when the rail is slick to keep their acceleration close to normal? How often do locos use sand to improve traction? I would like to see it done, or rather, perhaps, hear it done.


They use it whenever necessary.
However, no amount of sand is going to change the basic rail to wheel coefficient of friction by much, and that is what keeps the trains moving. Sand alleviates the reduction in that coefficient due to icing or leaf oil on the rail etc. Other techniques used to mitigate such problems is track washing, applying deicing fluid to rails etc. And engines like the ACS-64 have extremely sophisticated slip control mechanisms built in which enable the engine to run at the edge of traction, which is the most efficient place to be at and provides the most traction. But it can never be more than that governed by the weight on the wheel and the coefficient of friction.


----------



## Fan Railer

Ziv said:


> George, is there a way to spray sand on the tracks to increase traction? It sounds stupid but I thought that there was a way old Great Northern locomotives could do that, but in retrospect, it sounds odd.
> 
> On edit: Google is your friend, Ziv. So they do have sand sprayers on most locos. Will the ACS-64 use sand in rainy conditions when the rail is slick to keep their acceleration close to normal? How often do locos use sand to improve traction? I would like to see it done, or rather, perhaps, hear it done.


At the end of this video I shot at Metropark, if you listen closely enough,the engineer turns the sander on so the ALP-46 can shove its heavy consist out of the station. Metropark is great if you want sanding action:

Start watching at 16:50, and make sure it's in HD.


----------



## ACS-64

600 said to be on the expected 152/159 rotation today.


----------



## Ziv

jis, Fan Railer, thank you both very much for your responses. I just remembered something about the sand traction application from when I was a kid and it is cool to find out I hadn't completely mis-remembered it!


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gunna sound a bit stupid but, what exactly is "IGBT power"?? I really don't understand what it is.. TIA.
> 
> 
> 
> First of all let me assure you there is no question that is stupid. Asking a question is an admirable quality indicating that one is aware of ones limits of knowledge and is willing to learn.
> IGBT (Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor) is a type of electronic device which can switch the flow of electricity off and on at controlled variable rates. This property together with some additional circuitry makes them highly suitable for use in Inverters that are used to produce AC from DC at variable frequency that can be controlled precisely. They can also handle quite large currents (up to ~1,000Amp) at many thousand volts, thus making them suitable for use in power electronics that is used in the drive systems for AC motors in modern electric engines.
> 
> In modern engines the power that is drawn from the catenary is first converted to DC at a suitable intermediate voltage, something around 3,000v which drives a common DC link bus. Then all the power consumers feed off of this bus through inverters to deliver the right form of AC for each specific use. This is what makes versatile power inverters that are compact very important, and IGBT is the enabling technology for such. Of course one of the major consumers are the traction motors that provide the motive power for the engine to move a train (and itself).
> 
> A typical module capable of handling over a thousand Amps of current at upto 3300V looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This particular one is a Mitsubishi module. But there are similar modules in the ACS-64 for driving each traction motor.
> 
> As it turns out, even though HEP requires a constant frequency AC, the inverter that is used for HEP is essentially the same as a traction inverter but in the HEP mode of operation is controlled differently. The reason this is done is that in case of a traction inverter failure, the HEP one can be used as replacement and conversely in case of a HEP inverter failure a traction inverter can be used as substitute. The latter of course reduces the traction power output of the engine, but that may be tolerable in many cases in order to keep the passengers from freezing or getting a heat stroke.
> 
> You can read up more about it starting from the Wiki article on IGBT which can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated-gate_bipolar_transistor.
> 
> Hope that helps clarify more than further confuse.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Jis! It's all a lot clearer now to me.


----------



## jis

#601 will be commissioned tomorrow (Feb 18) with a special train run from WAS to BOS leaving WAS at 8:15am. It will run on a returns special train out of BOS on the 19th at 9:15am all the way to DC. Then it will enter regular service on the 20th.


----------



## Acela150

Jis will 601 run between 2155 and 93 or will it run before the 2?


----------



## Guest

Just saw an ACS64 heading North out of 30th Street Station(Philly). It was only pulling 4 cars. Could this be the special run with 601 in the lead?


----------



## jis

Guest said:


> Just saw an ACS64 heading North out of 30th Street Station(Philly). It was only pulling 4 cars. Could this be the special run with 601 in the lead?


Sounds about right, since it is supposed to have departed Washington DC at 8:15am.


----------



## Fan Railer

Word is she departed Washington about 25 min late at 8:40.


----------



## Acela150

605 is sitting in Sunneyside and 606 is at New haven this morning.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## bgiaquin

607, 608, & 609 are at Siemens ready for delivery. One could be out East by the end of February, but based on the 3 per month delivery schedule, I assume these 3 may be delivered in early, mid and late March, respectively.


----------



## Ryan

If they're all ready to go, why not deliver them at the same time?


----------



## bgiaquin

RyanS said:


> If they're all ready to go, why not deliver them at the same time?


That would make the most sense. There is some reason as to why one at a time but I do not remember what it is.


----------



## Nathanael

bgiaquin said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they're all ready to go, why not deliver them at the same time?
> 
> 
> 
> That would make the most sense. There is some reason as to why one at a time but I do not remember what it is.
Click to expand...

I'd love to know too. I understand the reason for not delivering, say, two dozen at a time (a heavy and yet delicate load for the train shipping them), but in the transit world it's fairly common to deliver up to 4 EMUs in one shipment, so I don't quite see why you wouldn't ship 2 or 3 locomotives at once. Are they so heavy that the hauling locomotive has trouble handling more than one?


----------



## Tracktwentynine

Nathanael said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they're all ready to go, why not deliver them at the same time?
> 
> 
> 
> That would make the most sense. There is some reason as to why one at a time but I do not remember what it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd love to know too. I understand the reason for not delivering, say, two dozen at a time (a heavy and yet delicate load for the train shipping them), but in the transit world it's fairly common to deliver up to 4 EMUs in one shipment, so I don't quite see why you wouldn't ship 2 or 3 locomotives at once. Are they so heavy that the hauling locomotive has trouble handling more than one?
Click to expand...


Let's think about this logically.

Amtrak can only test new ACS64s at a certain rate. Probably with just 1 or 2 going through acceptance on the corridor at any given time. Regardless of how many are at Wilmington, they can only run a few test trains/crews.

So if Siemens delivers them faster than planned, they'll just sit at Wilmington (rather than Sacramento). No big problem.

Now, I know we're all railfans here, and we WANT MOAR LOCOS NOW!, which is all well and good. But just because we want the locomotives to be in Delaware rather than California doesn't mean it makes sense to do so.

Amtrak already has 6 on the East Coast, and has 2 in service (#600 and #601). The other 4 are being tested and accepted.

So, let's say Amtrak wanted to bring all 3 at once.

Normally the ACS is attached to the California Zephyr (and Capitol Limited). That works fine with 1 loco. 2 might be too heavy (remember, it's not adding any tractive power, just dead weight). 3 might make the train too long for platforms in addition to being too heavy.

So bringing all 3 at once would probably mean chartering a special train or having these added to a freight (at some expense to Amtrak).

So basically, Amtrak can spend a bunch of money getting all 3 at once (so all 3 can sit in a rail yard) or it can pay a very small additional amount of fuel and deliver each one on 3 consecutive Zephyrs.

It's basically the same reason you don't get 3 months of groceries on one trip. Getting the locos to Wilmington sooner isn't going to get them accepted any sooner. And it will cost Amtrak a lot more, so why not just bring the three separately?


----------



## bgiaquin

Tracktwentynine said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they're all ready to go, why not deliver them at the same time?
> 
> 
> 
> That would make the most sense. There is some reason as to why one at a time but I do not remember what it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd love to know too. I understand the reason for not delivering, say, two dozen at a time (a heavy and yet delicate load for the train shipping them), but in the transit world it's fairly common to deliver up to 4 EMUs in one shipment, so I don't quite see why you wouldn't ship 2 or 3 locomotives at once. Are they so heavy that the hauling locomotive has trouble handling more than one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let's think about this logically.
> 
> Amtrak can only test new ACS64s at a certain rate. Probably with just 1 or 2 going through acceptance on the corridor at any given time. Regardless of how many are at Wilmington, they can only run a few test trains/crews.
> 
> So if Siemens delivers them faster than planned, they'll just sit at Wilmington (rather than Sacramento). No big problem.
> 
> Now, I know we're all railfans here, and we WANT MOAR LOCOS NOW!, which is all well and good. But just because we want the locomotives to be in Delaware rather than California doesn't mean it makes sense to do so.
> 
> Amtrak already has 6 on the East Coast, and has 2 in service (#600 and #601). The other 4 are being tested and accepted.
> 
> So, let's say Amtrak wanted to bring all 3 at once.
> 
> Normally the ACS is attached to the California Zephyr (and Capitol Limited). That works fine with 1 loco. 2 might be too heavy (remember, it's not adding any tractive power, just dead weight). 3 might make the train too long for platforms in addition to being too heavy.
> 
> So bringing all 3 at once would probably mean chartering a special train or having these added to a freight (at some expense to Amtrak).
> 
> So basically, Amtrak can spend a bunch of money getting all 3 at once (so all 3 can sit in a rail yard) or it can pay a very small additional amount of fuel and deliver each one on 3 consecutive Zephyrs.
> 
> It's basically the same reason you don't get 3 months of groceries on one trip. Getting the locos to Wilmington sooner isn't going to get them accepted any sooner. And it will cost Amtrak a lot more, so why not just bring the three separately?
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, Amtrak has 7 units on the east coast, 600-606.


----------



## Ryan

I wasn't necessarily meaning at the exact same time, and once things settle into a routine I can see them being sent east as they're ready one every 10 days or so.

But since they're sitting there ready to roll, no reason to spread them out over the month, send them 3 consecutive days, or during the same week, unless bgiaquin has some inside info that they are going to be spread out.


----------



## NE933

Spreading out deliveries is also for insurance, to spread out risk. If a train with three ACS-64 derails that's gonna put a dent in things, which we don't need.


----------



## bgiaquin

RyanS said:


> I wasn't necessarily meaning at the exact same time, and once things settle into a routine I can see them being sent east as they're ready one every 10 days or so.
> 
> But since they're sitting there ready to roll, no reason to spread them out over the month, send them 3 consecutive days, or during the same week, unless bgiaquin has some inside info that they are going to be spread out.


Nope, no inside info for me. I was just making a guess. They may send them out 3 days in a row or 3 weeks in a row. We have to wait and see. I was putting that out there as a "maybe x, y, and z".


----------



## ACS-64

Any word if 601 entered revenue service today? If so what trains?

600 was on the usual 184/129 turn.


----------



## afigg

Tracktwentynine said:


> So, let's say Amtrak wanted to bring all 3 at once.
> 
> Normally the ACS is attached to the California Zephyr (and Capitol Limited). That works fine with 1 loco. 2 might be too heavy (remember, it's not adding any tractive power, just dead weight). 3 might make the train too long for platforms in addition to being too heavy.
> 
> So bringing all 3 at once would probably mean chartering a special train or having these added to a freight (at some expense to Amtrak).
> 
> So basically, Amtrak can spend a bunch of money getting all 3 at once (so all 3 can sit in a rail yard) or it can pay a very small additional amount of fuel and deliver each one on 3 consecutive Zephyrs.
> 
> It's basically the same reason you don't get 3 months of groceries on one trip. Getting the locos to Wilmington sooner isn't going to get them accepted any sooner. And it will cost Amtrak a lot more, so why not just bring the three separately?


Remember, the earlier ACS-64s were delivered sandwiched between two P-42s all the way to WAS. So the consists were extended by 3 locomotives, but the platform length is not relevant because the lead locomotive(s) don't need to access the platform.
Perhaps Amtrak will sandwich two ACS-64s between two P-42s to get 2 units to the east coast at once to catch up on the delivery schedule. However, the past 5-6 weeks have been brutal on the P-42 fleet with many units reportedly out for repair, so it is possible that Amtrak is tight on available diesel locos to bring the ACS-64s east. We will see what happens over the next few weeks.

Amtrak has good reasons to get the new ACS-64s to the east coast and through the check-out process to get them into service. The sooner they can get a batch of ACS-64s in revenue service, the sooner they can retire the most troublesome and least reliable AEM-7DC and HHP-8 units.


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> Remember, the earlier ACS-64s were delivered sandwiched between two P-42s all the way to WAS. So the consists were extended by 3 locomotives, but the platform length is not relevant because the lead locomotive(s) don't need to access the platform.


I do not think that was the case in general. Don't know about the others, but the first one was delivered by Capitol Ltd. sandwiched between two of its regular P42s. So the consist had only one extra unit and that was the ACS-64. I know because I was on that train traveling SOB to WAS. Saw the train roll into SOB with the ACS-64 between the two P42s.
In general I don't think they need any additional diesel locos to ferry ACS-64s. There was one that had its own pair because it had to be taken to Hornell, and it traveled by the LSL to Albany and thence to Hornell. I saw that operation too since I happened to be in Albany the day it arrived there. The next day and Empire Service train brought the two diesels back to Albany, and then they headed back to Chicago via LSL as far as I recall.


----------



## Fan Railer

601 did not enter service today.


----------



## Acela150

Any reasons why??


----------



## HAL

bgiaquin said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they're all ready to go, why not deliver them at the same time?
> 
> 
> 
> That would make the most sense. There is some reason as to why one at a time but I do not remember what it is.
Click to expand...

They have to be commissioned. That includes a run from Washington to Boston.


----------



## HAL

Acela150 said:


> Any reasons why??


Yes, but I am not telling.....

They did a commisioning run from Boston to Washington today. Have not heard how that went.


----------



## bgiaquin

HAL said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any reasons why??
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I am not telling.....
> 
> They did a commisioning run from Boston to Washington today. Have not heard how that went.
Click to expand...

As long as the loco did not have any sort of problem, because that would not be good this early on in service.


----------



## Fan Railer

From rr.net:



> ApproachMedium: 601 is good, but wont be put on the road just yet until some items are completed. 602 is going to be doing washington to harrisburg testing next week, as long as everything goes as planned. I have no idea if its being done with a cabby car or not.


----------



## Acela150

HAL said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any reasons why??
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I am not telling.....
> 
> They did a commisioning run from Boston to Washington today. Have not heard how that went.
Click to expand...

Is that because you work for Amtrak? I'm well aware that 601 did a commissioning run. I was avidly trying to go out and get photos. But couldn't for various reasons.

On top of that... 607 and 608 will be delivered soon and will be shuttled east together.


----------



## bgiaquin

Acela150 said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any reasons why??
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I am not telling.....
> 
> They did a commisioning run from Boston to Washington today. Have not heard how that went.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that because you work for Amtrak? I'm well aware that 601 did a commissioning run. I was avidly trying to go out and get photos. But couldn't for various reasons.
> 
> On top of that... 607 and 608 will be delivered soon and will be shuttled east together.
Click to expand...

Two at a time now, huh. Where did you that? I am not doubting it. Anything they can do to get those engines out there as quickly as possible. Just curious


----------



## Fan Railer

Finally, I get the chance to catch ACS-64 600 myself at Newark Liberty International Airport Station. Here she is in all of her glory:


----------



## Acela150

bgiaquin said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any reasons why??
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I am not telling.....
> 
> They did a commisioning run from Boston to Washington today. Have not heard how that went.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that because you work for Amtrak? I'm well aware that 601 did a commissioning run. I was avidly trying to go out and get photos. But couldn't for various reasons.
> 
> On top of that... 607 and 608 will be delivered soon and will be shuttled east together.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two at a time now, huh. Where did you that? I am not doubting it. Anything they can do to get those engines out there as quickly as possible. Just curious
Click to expand...

Another railroad forum.


----------



## jis

606 is sitting in New Haven this weekend.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## battalion51

jis said:


> In general I don't think they need any additional diesel locos to ferry ACS-64s. There was one that had its own pair because it had to be taken to Hornell, and it traveled by the LSL to Albany and thence to Hornell. I saw that operation too since I happened to be in Albany the day it arrived there. The next day and Empire Service train brought the two diesels back to Albany, and then they headed back to Chicago via LSL as far as I recall.


They actually do need a couple of extra engines when they go grab the engines from Sacramento to bring them down to Oakland. Granted you're talking about two engines for one day, but when the system is stretched to the point where there's not enough power to run trains with the power you're supposed to have, that may be asking a lot to have two engines hanging around to do ferry jobs.


----------



## jis

Ok, so your suggestion would be that Amtrak stop taking deliveries until the engine situation becomes one that satisfies you?  

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## bmorechris

Just saw 601 at ivy city, driving by on New York Ave


----------



## Nathanael

Tracktwentynine said:


> Normally the ACS is attached to the California Zephyr (and Capitol Limited). That works fine with 1 loco. 2 might be too heavy (remember, it's not adding any tractive power, just dead weight). 3 might make the train too long for platforms in addition to being too heavy.


OK, so if they're attached to the CZ and CL when running from Sacramento Station to the East Coast, then the weight would in fact limit the number you want to attach to one train.

However, they still have to be moved by switching locomotive from Siemens's plant (which is south of Sacramento on the line used by the San Joaquins) to Sacramento Station. I doubt that they are picking them up with San Joaquins. This would be a paid freight movement anyway and so you'd expect them to move as many as they can at once. Are they piling up next to the platforms at Sacramento?


----------



## Acela150

No. They send them to Oakland to be attached to the CZ.


----------



## ACS-64

The 2 P42s that were used off of today's returning Reno Fun/Snow train will be heading over to Siemens tomorrow to make a pick-up.


----------



## Acela150

ACS-64 said:


> The 2 P42s that were used off of today's returning Reno Fun/Snow train will be heading over to Siemens tomorrow to make a pick-up.


Good to know thanks for keeping us Updated! Your intel is a welcome thing here on AU!


----------



## Nathanael

Acela150 said:


> No. They send them to Oakland to be attached to the CZ.


OK, then I'd expect really large shipments from Sacramento to Oakland. Maybe 6 at a time.  Crazy to pay for lots of single-car freight movements, right?


----------



## Nathanael

Or does UP offer Amtrak a good deal on track access for Amtrak to run its freight from the Siemens plant to Oakland? If so, cool.


----------



## ACS-64

Acela150 said:


> ACS-64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 2 P42s that were used off of today's returning Reno Fun/Snow train will be heading over to Siemens tomorrow to make a pick-up.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know thanks for keeping us Updated! Your intel is a welcome thing here on AU!
Click to expand...

Monday's lunch special "sandwich" will be:

98

607

608

190


----------



## bgiaquin

ACS-64 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 2 P42s that were used off of today's returning Reno Fun/Snow train will be heading over to Siemens tomorrow to make a pick-up.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know thanks for keeping us Updated! Your intel is a welcome thing here on AU!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Monday's lunch special "sandwich" will be:98
> 
> 607
> 
> 608
> 
> 190
Click to expand...

Mmmmm sounds tasty


----------



## engr08

bgiaquin said:


> ACS-64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 2 P42s that were used off of today's returning Reno Fun/Snow train will be heading over to Siemens tomorrow to make a pick-up.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know thanks for keeping us Updated! Your intel is a welcome thing here on AU!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Monday's lunch special "sandwich" will be:98
> 
> 607
> 
> 608
> 
> 190
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mmmmm sounds tasty
Click to expand...

Will these motors get shipped out tomorrow on train 6? I also heard 609 is ready for delivery and 610 is not to far behind.


----------



## ACS-64

engr08 said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 2 P42s that were used off of today's returning Reno Fun/Snow train will be heading over to Siemens tomorrow to make a pick-up.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know thanks for keeping us Updated! Your intel is a welcome thing here on AU!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Monday's lunch special "sandwich" will be:98
> 
> 607
> 
> 608
> 
> 190
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mmmmm sounds tasty
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Will these motors get shipped out tomorrow on train 6? I also heard 609 is ready for delivery and 610 is not to far behind.
Click to expand...

Tuesday on 6 would be the earliest possibility.


----------



## Gemuser

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gunna sound a bit stupid but, what exactly is "IGBT power"?? I really don't understand what it is.. TIA.
> 
> 
> 
> .
> In modern engines the power that is drawn from the catenary is first converted to DC at a suitable intermediate voltage, something around 3,000v which drives a common DC link bus. Then all the power consumers feed off of this bus through inverters to deliver the right form of AC for each specific use. This is what makes versatile power inverters that are compact very important, and IGBT is the enabling technology for such. Of course one of the major consumers are the traction motors that provide the motive power for the engine to move a train (and itself).
Click to expand...

JIS

Thanks for the explination, but one question: Why is all power converted to DC when most of it, the traction component, is then converted back to AC?

Thanks


----------



## Dutchrailnut

the AC used in traction motors has to be variable from near zero Hz (DC) to highest needed frequency for top speed.

to obtain the low frequency its best to start with DC power.

So Commercial steady frequency is transformed to DC bus of about 2000 volt DC

the DC bus feeds the inverters for HEP and traction motors.


----------



## Nathanael

Gemuser said:


> Thanks for the explination, but one question: Why is all power converted to DC when most of it, the traction component, is then converted back to AC?


What Dutch said. But I can go into a bit more detail. AC traction motors run off *variable frequency* AC and furthermore, controlling the frequency is how you control the speed of the motor. Commercial AC power and AC overhead power is *fixed frequency* (60 Hz for US commercial power and the northern part of the NEC, 25 Hz for the southern part of NEC)
Variable-frequency AC is very different from fixed-frequency AC. The easiest way to convert between the two is to have an intermediate DC stage (since DC doesn't have a frequency).


----------



## Gemuser

Dutch & Nathanael

Thanks guys, very clear explinations.


----------



## engr08

Any word on the 607 & 608 being pulled out of the plant?


----------



## bgiaquin

engr08 said:


> Any word on the 607 & 608 being pulled out of the plant?


I have not seen anything online yet. No pictures or video or anything, which I find surprising.


----------



## Agent

Here's a report that the two ACS-64s were put on Amtrak #6(25) out of Emeryville today. That means it'll be in Denver tomorrow and Chicago on Thursday.

The engine arrangement is:

AMTK 144

AMTK 608

AMTK 607

AMTK 153


----------



## Ryan

Holy cow, does this mean out of Chicago Friday and arriving here in DC on a Saturday? Weekend deliveries means Ryan can go take pictures.


----------



## engr08

RyanS said:


> Holy cow, does this mean out of Chicago Friday and arriving here in DC on a Saturday? Weekend deliveries means Ryan can go take pictures.


If train 6 left today it will arrive in Chicago at 2:50pm on Thursday (27) but I was checking the OTP during the week and it looks like its been arriving an hour late almost all the time. Train 30 leaves Chicago at 6:40pm on Thursday so I can see them putting those motors on 30 the same day and shipping them over. So the 607 & 608 should arrive into Washington DC on Friday (28).


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> Holy cow, does this mean out of Chicago Friday and arriving here in DC on a Saturday? Weekend deliveries means Ryan can go take pictures.


Easy now!  Don't foam to much...


----------



## NE933

It's hard not to. Now let's get them and the Viewliner II's running.


----------



## ACS-64

engr08 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Holy cow, does this mean out of Chicago Friday and arriving here in DC on a Saturday? Weekend deliveries means Ryan can go take pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> If train 6 left today it will arrive in Chicago at 2:50pm on Thursday (27) but I was checking the OTP during the week and it looks like its been arriving an hour late almost all the time. Train 30 leaves Chicago at 6:40pm on Thursday so I can see them putting those motors on 30 the same day and shipping them over. So the 607 & 608 should arrive into Washington DC on Friday (28).
Click to expand...

Of the 7 units already on the East Coast(600-606), not a single one made the same day turn passing through Chicago. They all overnighted there and went out the next day. If that pattern is followed 607 & 608 would go out on Fridays Capital Limited arriving in WAS on Saturday.


----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## Acela150

I'm impressed that Amtrak is letting 2 P42's haul 2 ACS' and all those cars.


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> I'm impressed that Amtrak is letting 2 P42's haul 2 ACS' and all those cars.


There's no reason not to, haha. Two gennies have plenty of power (they haul the AutoTrain just fine), and the Zephyr is in off peak season, so it is short one car anyway.


----------



## Agent

Here's #6(25) passing through Agency, Iowa at one o'clock (three hours and forty-one minutes late).


----------



## battalion51

Fan Railer said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm impressed that Amtrak is letting 2 P42's haul 2 ACS' and all those cars.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no reason not to, haha. Two gennies have plenty of power (they haul the AutoTrain just fine), and the Zephyr is in off peak season, so it is short one car anyway.
Click to expand...

Not suggesting that it can't handle a second electric dead in tow, but the comparison between the Zephyr and Auto Train power-wise is apples and oranges. Auto Train isn't exactly tackling the Sierra Nevadas or the Rockies.


----------



## engr08

Did anyone hear of the 602 making a test run today? I heard it went out but I'm not sure where, also cab car number 9650 has been done over to run with the ACS.


----------



## Acela150

602 was out today.. With 3 cafes.


----------



## engr08

Acela150 said:


> 602 was out today.. With 3 cafes.


Where did it go?


----------



## Acela150

DC


----------



## engr08

It started out of dc, I'm asking where did it go from DC?

Sent from my LG-D801 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## Acela150

Most likely Sunneyside.


----------



## MattW

The last I heard, 602 was supposed to test out to Harrisburg, not sure if that was the case or not, but that was the last plan I heard.


----------



## engr08

MattW said:


> The last I heard, 602 was supposed to test out to Harrisburg, not sure if that was the case or not, but that was the last plan I heard.


Ive heard the same thing.


----------



## Agent

Here's another video from today that was shared with me, this one filmed in Ottumwa, Iowa.

Also, I've been told that units 609-611 are sitting at the factory ready to go.


----------



## Fan Railer

battalion51 said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm impressed that Amtrak is letting 2 P42's haul 2 ACS' and all those cars.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no reason not to, haha. Two gennies have plenty of power (they haul the AutoTrain just fine), and the Zephyr is in off peak season, so it is short one car anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not suggesting that it can't handle a second electric dead in tow, but the comparison between the Zephyr and Auto Train power-wise is apples and oranges. Auto Train isn't exactly tackling the Sierra Nevadas or the Rockies.
Click to expand...

Haha, the hyperbole serves its purpose; that's my only point here.


----------



## engr08

Just got word that the 601 will be in service soon, as soon as tomorrow. 609 will be on the way next week and the 610 the following. 601 will be on 184-129 and the 600 will be on 84-93.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## bgiaquin

engr08 said:


> Just got word that the 601 will be in service soon, as soon as tomorrow. 609 will be on the way next week and the 610 the following. 601 will be on 184-129 and the 600 will be on 84-93.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


So they are going back only one at a time?


----------



## jis

The delivery rate is supposed to settle down at 3 per month. So I fully expect them to be delivered one at a time in steady state.


----------



## engr08

On this e-mail i received it looks like it but anything is subject to change


----------



## Fan Railer

engr08 said:


> Just got word that the 601 will be in service soon, as soon as tomorrow. 609 will be on the way next week and the 610 the following. 601 will be on 184-129 and the 600 will be on 84-93.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D801 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


The schedules for 84 and 93 aren't exactly compatible. You sure there isn't a typo somewhere?


----------



## engr08

Fan railer you're right i meant to say 193, excuse me for the error. My word is not written in stone, whatever info i get i will pass it along.


----------



## Fan Railer

engr08 said:


> Fan railer you're right i meant to say 193, excuse me for the error. My word is not written in stone, whatever info i get i will pass it along.


no problem. just clarifying.


----------



## engr08

Like i said before my word is not concrete so just take the information with a grain of salt. I dont want to be wrong and i get blamed for misinformation


----------



## Ryan

No worries, we greatly appreciate all the info you bring to the table.


----------



## ACS-64

600 was on the 84/193 rotation today.

607/608 departing Chicago on #30 tonight.


----------



## engr08

ACS-64 said:


> 600 was on the 84/193 rotation today.
> 
> 607/608 departing Chicago on #30 tonight.


If the 601 run tomorrow it will be on 156 and return on 131 the next morning. During the week it will be on 184-129.


----------



## Acela150

MattW said:


> The last I heard, 602 was supposed to test out to Harrisburg, not sure if that was the case or not, but that was the last plan I heard.





engr08 said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> The last I heard, 602 was supposed to test out to Harrisburg, not sure if that was the case or not, but that was the last plan I heard.
> 
> 
> 
> Ive heard the same thing.
Click to expand...

That plan was postponed. Unknown why.


----------



## Acela150

An update on 602.

602 ran to HAR yesterday and back to DC. 607 and 608 are due to arrive in DC tomorrow.


----------



## ACS-64

March 1, 2014

600 on 156

601 on 152/159


----------



## engr08

ACS-64 said:


> March 1, 2014
> 
> 600 on 156
> 
> 601 on 152/159


Good to see both of them out and it should be on 131 tomorrow.


----------



## jacorbett70

Saw 601 lead 159 through Philly on time tonight.


----------



## engr08

600 just left Newark on 131


----------



## engr08

Do not look for these motors tomorrow, they will not be in service due to the storm.


----------



## Blackwolf

engr08 said:


> Do not look for these motors tomorrow, they will not be in service due to the storm.


Really? Amtrak does not have confidence enough that their newest, most advanced motors cannot handle a storm, and are sending out the 30+ year old nags to do the bidding instead? :blink:


----------



## engr08

This is the information i get blackwolf im pretty sure theres a good reason why Amtrak is not running them.


----------



## Acela150

engr08 said:


> Do not look for these motors tomorrow, they will not be in service due to the storm.


Says who?? I find this hard to believe as 600 was in service during a storm a few weeks ago.


----------



## Fan Railer

It's only one day... doesn't exactly matter if they're out or not.


----------



## engr08

Acela150 said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do not look for these motors tomorrow, they will not be in service due to the storm.
> 
> 
> 
> Says who?? I find this hard to believe as 600 was in service during a storm a few weeks ago.
Click to expand...

Well like I said this is the information im getting, if you want to believe me then ok if not that's fine as well. If you look back at what I post before I clearly said that please take my words with a grain of salt. Whatever info im getting on these motors I will pass them down. Sometimes Amtrak changes things up making me look like im giving false information.


----------



## ACS-64

engr08 said:


> Do not look for these motors tomorrow, they will not be in service...


My crystal ball is indicating this as well.


----------



## Fan Railer

The hunting is strong with this one (601) XD


----------



## afigg

Blackwolf said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do not look for these motors tomorrow, they will not be in service due to the storm.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Amtrak does not have confidence enough that their newest, most advanced motors cannot handle a storm, and are sending out the 30+ year old nags to do the bidding instead? :blink:
Click to expand...

Amtrak is running a reduced snow schedule today on the southern half of the NEC with a number of canceled Regionals and Acelas. It may be that the Regionals which were assigned to the ACS-64s were among those canceled.


----------



## jis

Although the seeming hunting seems to be mostly at the interlocking, no?


----------



## EMDSD14R

Hi this is EMDSD14R. I am new here but I've been using this site to track the ACS64's. Does anyone here know when 602 is going to be tested on the Keystone Corridor? I heard it was suppose to be last week but I didn't see anything. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thank you


----------



## engr08

EMDSD14R said:


> Hi this is EMDSD14R. I am new here but I've been using this site to track the ACS64's. Does anyone here know when 602 is going to be tested on the Keystone Corridor? I heard it was suppose to be last week but I didn't see anything. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thank you


The 602 went to Harrisburg last week Friday


----------



## Fan Railer

jis said:


> Although the seeming hunting seems to be mostly at the interlocking, no?


Yes, yes it is. I just thought it was a nice phrase to say, given that there are those who understand the reference XD


----------



## jis

Fan Railer said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Although the seeming hunting seems to be mostly at the interlocking, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, yes it is. I just thought it was a nice phrase to say, given that there are those who understand the reference XD
Click to expand...

Right! There is hunting and then there is HHP-8 hunting


----------



## Fan Railer

Two things:

1. reports 600 will be running on 174 WAS-BOS Tuesday, and 173 BOS-WAS Wednesday.

2. This is how the ACS-64 will look in train simulator 2014: http://www.engine-driver.com/article/show/2425/technical-insight-creating-locomotives-for-train-simulator


----------



## engr08

Wow


----------



## Fan Railer

On another note, the planned 174/173 run has been postponed and will not be occurring this Tuesday / Wednesday, reportedly due to shoreline catenary issues.


----------



## Guest

Why are ACS locos having trouble/not running North of NYC?


----------



## jis

I understand they need some software adjustment/patch to handle the phase gaps and voltage changes more reliably up north.

I remember when the ALP-46s were initially put in service, they also went through a bunch of teething troubles at the voltage change phase gaps at Swift/Kearny and Rare/Matawan.


----------



## Acela150

Guest said:


> Why are ACS locos having trouble/not running North of NYC?


Due to voltage change issues. At NRO the trains switch from 12,000 and 25 cycles to 12,000 and 60 cycles, and then at NHV from 12,000 and 60 to 25,000 and 60. IIRC. I know it's something to this effect. If the units have trouble switching voltage the unit could shut down.. But unlikely.


----------



## jis

Rumor has it that 609 will be delivered by Siemens tomorrow (3/10/14) in Sacramento. It is also reported that 610 and 611 are also ready, so one more may get delivered on Monday too.


----------



## Agent

jis said:


> Rumor has it that 609 will be delivered by Siemens tomorrow (3/10/14) in Sacramento. It is also reported that 610 and 611 are also ready, so one more may get delivered on Monday too.


So, following how it's gone previously, a delivery on Monday means:

Tuesday: Leaves California on #6

Wednesday: Denver

Thursday: Chicago

Friday: Leaves Chicago on #30

Saturday: Washington D.C.

Corrections are welcome.


----------



## ACS-64

Agent said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rumor has it that 609 will be delivered by Siemens tomorrow (3/10/14) in Sacramento. It is also reported that 610 and 611 are also ready, so one more may get delivered on Monday too.
> 
> 
> 
> So, following how it's gone previously, a delivery on Monday means:
> 
> Tuesday: Leaves California on #6
> 
> Wednesday: Denver
> 
> Thursday: Chicago
> 
> Friday: Leaves Chicago on #30
> 
> Saturday: Washington D.C.
> 
> Corrections are welcome.
Click to expand...

Bingo


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Rumor has it that 609 will be delivered by Siemens tomorrow (3/10/14) in Sacramento. It is also reported that 610 and 611 are also ready, so one more may get delivered on Monday too.


Their a flowin' now!!


----------



## ronkstevens

Agent said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rumor has it that 609 will be delivered by Siemens tomorrow (3/10/14) in Sacramento. It is also reported that 610 and 611 are also ready, so one more may get delivered on Monday too.
> 
> 
> 
> So, following how it's gone previously, a delivery on Monday means:
> 
> Tuesday: Leaves California on #6
> 
> Wednesday: Denver
> 
> Thursday: Chicago
> 
> Friday: Leaves Chicago on #30
> 
> Saturday: Washington D.C.
> 
> Corrections are welcome.
Click to expand...

But I want one delivered then on Wednesday, since I will be on #30 Sunday/Monday


----------



## Trainspotter

Just saw ACS64 leaving Philly with the Crescent towards NYC.


----------



## engr08

Trainspotter said:


> Just saw ACS64 leaving Philly with the Crescent towards NYC.


Wait a minute, it was on train 20?


----------



## Trainspotter

I'm pretty sure unless it was a test special with amfleets, viewliners, diner and baggage.


----------



## engr08

I guess you are right because a friend of mine told me he didn't see on 84 today. By the way the 602 is down in DC engineer training but it has been accepted by Amtrak.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Rumor has it that 609 will be delivered by Siemens tomorrow (3/10/14) in Sacramento. It is also reported that 610 and 611 are also ready, so one more may get delivered on Monday too.


Is it bad that reading this post I instantly thought of the real 611?? AKA the N&W J class Steam unit??



ronkstevens said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rumor has it that 609 will be delivered by Siemens tomorrow (3/10/14) in Sacramento. It is also reported that 610 and 611 are also ready, so one more may get delivered on Monday too.
> 
> 
> 
> So, following how it's gone previously, a delivery on Monday means:
> 
> Tuesday: Leaves California on #6
> 
> Wednesday: Denver
> 
> Thursday: Chicago
> 
> Friday: Leaves Chicago on #30
> 
> Saturday: Washington D.C.
> 
> Corrections are welcome.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But I want one delivered then on Wednesday, since I will be on #30 Sunday/Monday
Click to expand...

We all want stuff.. Doesn't mean we'll get it!


----------



## ronkstevens

But I want one delivered then on Wednesday, since I will be on #30 Sunday/Monday
We all want stuff.. Doesn't mean we'll get it! 

I know all too well. But it sure is a "Wouldn't it be nice if..." moment


----------



## HAL

engr08 said:


> Trainspotter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just saw ACS64 leaving Philly with the Crescent towards NYC.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait a minute, it was on train 20?
Click to expand...

Yes....


----------



## Fan Railer

Two questions...

1. Anyone know what the assignments for 600 and 601 will be for tomorrow?

2. Anyone have an idea about how the cruise control work on these locomotives?

Thanks =)


----------



## Acela150

IINM 600 has been on the 84/193 rotation and 601 has been on 184/129. Ask an engineer about the Cruise Control when you see one! I have a tendency to talk to engineers at NYP when they are changing crews.


----------



## engr08

The 600 had 184 and 129, 601 was on 20 but im not sure if it stayed in Sunnyside


----------



## Fan Railer

Haha, thanks guys. I have a big day planned tomorrow, but it revolves around the 84/193 rotation and the 184/129 rotation... if 601 is doing something different, that's going to mess with things a bit. We'll see I guess XD.

And about the cruise control question, it'd be kind of weird for someone like me to randomly ask such a specific question in person to someone who doesn't know me, which is kind of why I'm asking here first haha.


----------



## Fan Railer

601 was on the Silver Star today. Perhaps they switched it to long distance duty for the time being... clips soon.


----------



## Fan Railer

In order:

600 on Northeast Regional Train 184; Trenton Transit Center, 11:45 am.

601 on Silver Star Train 91; Trenton Transit Center, 12:00 pm.

600 on Northeast Regional Train 129; Metropark, 5:15 pm.

It seems that they have moved 601 to the long distance train set rotations for the time being, as it came up from WAS on the Crescent on 3/10/14 and went back down to WAS on the Silver Star today. Word has it that 602 will be seeing service relatively soon.


----------



## MattW

Glad to see they're being used on the LD trains! I hope they play nicely with the Heritage baggage cars when they flip the consists back to normal.


----------



## ACS-64

As mentioned elsewhere, HHP-8 #656 has been pulled and is now stored dead.


----------



## SubwayNut

Really enjoyed hearing the NJT Automated Man announce every single stop on the Silver Star. I've got to get out to Jersey and finally get my first ACS-Sprinter photos.


----------



## RailRide

ACS-64 said:


> As mentioned elsewhere, HHP-8 #656 has been pulled and is now stored dead.


I find this (possibly) inappropriately funny, as #656 is the unit Lionel modeled for their Northeast Corridor set. The miniature version is rumored to be "electronically fragile" as it contains custom versions of the company's standard electronics package, and no spares are available (at this point in time) to replace units that fail.

---PCJ, lobbying their biggest competitor MTH to make an ACS-64


----------



## Agent

Here's AMTK 609 on Amtrak #6(11) just east of Agency, Iowa running eight hours and twenty minutes late:


----------



## Fan Railer

Still tentative, but there is a chance we may see 602 lead the 20 into NYP this Sunday (3/16), if anyone wants to catch that.


----------



## jacorbett70

I saw #600 lead today's 97 Silver Meteor departure. It was about 1/2 hr late into Philly.

Edit to add link.


----------



## jacorbett70

Now it's 601 leading 127 into Philly close to schedule right now.


----------



## NE933

Are there major problems with these units? Mods that aren't working and so can't be accepted to go to Boston, some say they yaw, each locomotive has different computer instructions and thus each acts differently. I hope we don't have another Acela circa 1999.


----------



## jacorbett70

Amtrak 91 today has ACS-64 601 at Trenton. pic.twitter.com/3VTjN1oqnT Meanwhile, 20 is led by toaster #944.


----------



## HAL

NE933 said:


> Are there major problems with these units? Mods that aren't working and so can't be accepted to go to Boston, some say they yaw, each locomotive has different computer instructions and thus each acts differently. I hope we don't have another Acela circa 1999.


There are problems....


----------



## engr08

Thus is why the 602 is testing in that area.


----------



## jacorbett70

602 just arrived PHL leading train 20.


----------



## Fan Railer

From AMTK1007:


----------



## CHamilton

I guess this thread is permanently on Level 3  (image from Facebook)


----------



## jis

The _raison d'etre_ for this thread is the very definition of level 3 

The description changes with time. For example, some of us went through the AEM-7 and F40-PH phase of it before some participants in this thread were born


----------



## afigg

So in that foam scale, when a new ACS-64 pulls an LD train with a set of new Viewliner IIs in revenue service for the first time, that would be a Level 4 Foam Alert? Or would it rank higher?


----------



## engr08

afigg said:


> So in that foam scale, when a new ACS-64 pulls an LD train with a set of new Viewliner IIs in revenue service for the first time, that would be a Level 4 Foam Alert? Or would it rank higher?


Should be a level 7 alert due to a new motor and new passenger cars can cause foam storm.


----------



## jis

engr08 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> So in that foam scale, when a new ACS-64 pulls an LD train with a set of new Viewliner IIs in revenue service for the first time, that would be a Level 4 Foam Alert? Or would it rank higher?
> 
> 
> 
> Should be a level 7 alert due to a new motor and new passenger cars can cause foam storm.
Click to expand...

Storm of the century! Add Beech Grove and a few famous PVs to the train, and you have a complete apocalypse of foam.


----------



## SarahZ

That chart made me laugh.  I had to look up a couple of the locos, though. Now I understand Level 6 completely.


----------



## jis

This foam thing makes me think of Ghostbusters somehow.


----------



## ACS-64

Next unit should be conveyed from Siemens Monday morning.


----------



## Acela150

CHamilton said:


> I guess this thread is permanently on Level 3  (image from Facebook)


That's funny!! Who said Facebook isn't funny??


----------



## Ryan

Nobody said:


> Facebook isn't funny.


----------



## Agent

ACS-64 said:


> Next unit should be conveyed from Siemens Monday morning.


Another Monday delivery means this list:



Agent said:


> So, following how it's gone previously, a delivery on Monday means:
> 
> Tuesday: Leaves California on #6
> 
> Wednesday: Denver
> 
> Thursday: Chicago
> 
> Friday: Leaves Chicago on #30
> 
> Saturday: Washington D.C.
> 
> Corrections are welcome.


...should still apply.

But there's another thing: Phase IV anniversary unit AMTK 184 went west on #5 yesterday, and will arrive at Emeryville on Monday. If it gets turned right around on the next #6, it will leave Tuesday with the ACS-64. Granted, the last time 184 went to California on #5 it was put into commuter train service, but I will be keeping a close eye on this.

Has a heritage unit and an ACS-64 been on the same train before?


----------



## Brian Roberts

184 will NOT be on #6 with ACS-64 #610 the same situation happened with 66 when it was on #5. If the ACS-64 gets delivered on Monday it will be on #6 with the two locomotives that picked it up from florin, CA


----------



## engr08

I guess the 610 will be the first motor made in America, the first ten that was received by Amtrak was made in Germany.


----------



## edjbox

engr08 said:


> I guess the 610 will be the first motor made in America, the first ten that was received by Amtrak was made in Germany.


I thought they were all made in CA


----------



## engr08

The first 10 shells were built in Germany,the rest are being built here. When the first ten motors arrived on the northeast production was to slow down to see if they needed any modifications. Now that they now what modifications needed to be done production has ramped up. Some are 3 a month and some are saying 4 a month. Trust me when I tell you these motors we be coming in very quickly.


----------



## jacorbett70

A video I took of the ACS-64 with 184! OK, it was a really tardy _train_ 184, not the specially painted engine.

Keystone, Acela, the Crescent and the Pennsylvanian (with an apparent 'open door policy' are included.)


----------



## engr08

engr08 said:


> The first 10 shells were built in Germany,the rest are being built here. When the first ten motors arrived on the northeast production was to slow down to see if they needed any modifications. Now that they know what modifications needed to be done production has ramped up. Some are 3 a month and some are saying 4 a month. Trust me when I tell you these motors we be coming in very quickly.


----------



## ronkstevens

jacorbett70 said:


> A video I took of the ACS-64 with 184! OK, it was a really tardy _train_ 184, not the specially painted engine.
> 
> Keystone, Acela, the Crescent and the Pennsylvanian (with an apparent 'open door policy' are included.)


Nice video. Did you miss 91 coming into the station, or just edit it out?


----------



## jacorbett70

Train 91 was already in the station when I arrived and it flipped to "Departed" on the Solari board.


----------



## engr08

Does anyone know the status of the 610?

Sent from my LG-D801 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## hastybob

602 made it's first revenue run on 20 yesterday.

Bob


----------



## engr08

hastybob said:


> 602 made it's first revenue run on 20 yesterday.
> 
> Bob


It was Sunday


----------



## Agent

It is reported that the next ACS-64 did not make it onto #6 today, and instead will leave tomorrow on #6(19). So, bump everything on the list above a day later (Friday: Chicago, Sunday: D.C., etc.) This also means that heritage unit 184 will not be teamed with an ACS-64. Instead heritage unit 822 will be leading instead. That's okay, I like Phase III paint better anyway.


----------



## lo2e

jacorbett70 said:


> A video I took of the ACS-64 with 184! OK, it was a really tardy _train_ 184, not the specially painted engine.
> 
> Keystone, Acela, the Crescent and the Pennsylvanian (with an apparent 'open door policy' are included.)



Wow, the glare of the snow on the coach cars made me think they were Horizon coaches for a bit. Anyone else think the same thing or just me?


----------



## jis

The doors and traps are a dead giveaway that those are Amfleet and not Horizon.


----------



## hastybob

610 is scheduled for #6 today, along with 822 & 51.


----------



## jacorbett70

600 is on train 84 WAS-NYP today


----------



## Jim

610 being led by anniversary 822 departing EMY as #6 today


----------



## ACS-64

March 19, 2014

600: 84 turned to 193

601: 184 turned to 129

602: New York testing

610: 822-610-51 on 6(19)


----------



## Agent

Video of Amtrak #6(19) taken today in Rocklin, California by YouTube user William Hawk:


----------



## Jim

You can't see me waiving out of the railfan window!

Can one post a pic on here? I'd be happy to post one of the locos rounding some Colorado canyons.


----------



## bgiaquin

Jim said:


> You can't see me waiving out of the railfan window!
> 
> Can one post a pic on here? I'd be happy to post one of the locos rounding some Colorado canyons.


Yes. attach as a file or copy and paste.


----------



## Agent

Here's my video from today of Amtrak #6(19) with 610 being led by 822 into Agency, Iowa:


----------



## jacorbett70

Engine 601 on 159 this evening


----------



## EMDSD14R

Filmed ACS64 #600 leaving 30th street. Video will be on my you tube channel.... youtube.com/ EMDSD14R


----------



## engr08

The 603 was suppose to make its trip to Harrisburg and back to Washington today, then tomorrow its suppose to make a train to Boston and back. Also the next motor that suppose to make a shakedown run will be the 605 in April but im not sure of the date. Hopefully Amtrak can start getting these motors out soon because the meatballs are really starting to breakdown.


----------



## ronkstevens

I wonder if the meatballs have had some maintenance deferred for budgetary reasons with the anticipation of the delivery of the new motors.


----------



## engr08

Well you can see how bad they look, some have dents and the paint is either faded or chipping off. Also they don't make parts for the meatballs anymore so most of them are running until they cant run anymore.


----------



## EMDSD14R

Not sure if anyone knows this here but ACS64 #603 is testing on the Keystone Corridor today. I just filmed it speeding through Thorndale Station like 10 minutes ago. If anyone wants to film it returning from Harrisburg get to the Keystone Corridor sometime in the next couple of hours as I am not sure when its returning. It was pulling a Keystone set.


----------



## engr08

EMDSD14R said:


> Not sure if anyone knows this here but ACS64 #603 is testing on the Keystone Corridor today. I just filmed it speeding through Thorndale Station like 10 minutes ago. If anyone wants to film it returning from Harrisburg get to the Keystone Corridor sometime in the next couple of hours as I am not sure when its returning. It was pulling a Keystone set.


Are you going to post the video?


----------



## EMDSD14R

Yeah I am I am working on it now


----------



## engr08

EMDSD14R said:


> Yeah I am I am working on it now


Thank you


----------



## EMDSD14R

Anytime and here is the video. Enjoy everyone!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPslTtnw0gI


----------



## EMDSD14R

I made a shorter clip of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DYStLf50XA


----------



## afigg

ronkstevens said:


> I wonder if the meatballs have had some maintenance deferred for budgetary reasons with the anticipation of the delivery of the new motors.


There are no overhauls scheduled in FY2014 for the AEM-7DCs, ACs and HHP-8s in the maintenance summary in the monthly reports. In FY2013 monthly reports, the scheduled overhauls were cut short of the planned number in the latter part of the year with the note "project complete - budget reduction". So, yes, the overhaul cycle has been stopped for the meatballs and Hippos, obviously counting on the ACS-64s entering service quickly enough.


----------



## engr08

afigg said:


> ronkstevens said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the meatballs have had some maintenance deferred for budgetary reasons with the anticipation of the delivery of the new motors.
> 
> 
> 
> There are no overhauls scheduled in FY2014 for the AEM-7DCs, ACs and HHP-8s in the maintenance summary in the monthly reports. In FY2013 monthly reports, the scheduled overhauls were cut short of the planned number in the latter part of the year with the note "project complete - budget reduction". So, yes, the overhaul cycle has been stopped for the meatballs and Hippos, obviously counting on the ACS-64s entering service quickly enough.
Click to expand...

Amtrak really need to get these motors up and going. Like I said before a bunch of these motors are breaking down including the HHP8's. There are only 3 in service now and they said they are trying to 8 in service but it seems like that's not going to happen. The 602 was approve for service but I think its still in NY testing for engineers


----------



## OBS

Jim said:


> 610 being led by anniversary 822 departing EMY as #6 today


610 arrived in WAS on Sunday on tr30 with the 822 still in the lead.


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> ronkstevens said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the meatballs have had some maintenance deferred for budgetary reasons with the anticipation of the delivery of the new motors.
> 
> 
> 
> There are no overhauls scheduled in FY2014 for the AEM-7DCs, ACs and HHP-8s in the maintenance summary in the monthly reports. In FY2013 monthly reports, the scheduled overhauls were cut short of the planned number in the latter part of the year with the note "project complete - budget reduction". So, yes, the overhaul cycle has been stopped for the meatballs and Hippos, obviously counting on the ACS-64s entering service quickly enough.
Click to expand...

All overhauls of AEM-7's and HHP's are no longer being completed. It makes no sense to complete an overhaul when they are just going to be taken OOS soon. IIRC 924 was the last toaster to be overhauled.


----------



## Fan Railer

As per Facebook pics, 603 is sitting comfortably right now up at Boston after completing her test run.


----------



## BrianPR3

also per facebook pics 524 towed today's 91 which was led by 600 at mp 84 in beagles MD near martin airport station


----------



## Ryan

Photo credit to George Pitz:







https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1465025760381862&set=gm.608926292515989&type=1&theater


----------



## edjbox

Why was 600 being towed?


----------



## Ryan

It broke.


----------



## Fan Railer

lol


----------



## Barciur

Why was its pantograph up if it died?


----------



## bgiaquin

anybody know exactly what what happened to it? I hope it was not something major.


----------



## Fan Railer

Barciur said:


> Why was its pantograph up if it died?


HEP


----------



## Fan Railer

Report says 603 departed BOS approximately 30 minutes ago. Heading back down to NYC / PHI / WAS behind Acela 2159. Happy hunting.


----------



## neroden

I expect the first few ACS-64s off the line are going to be a bit finicky for a while, as with any production line. I eagerly await the arrival of the larger mass of "main production" of ACS-64s, at which point we will probably start seeing the retirements of the old motors pretty quickly.


----------



## CREW-DORM#2524

#600 had main res issues.


----------



## ayezee

Is it time to worry since there's been so many issues already and now we have a breakdown so soon after it's entry to service?


----------



## Ryan

No.


----------



## Fan Railer

ayezee said:


> Is it time to worry since there's been so many issues already and now we have a breakdown so soon after it's entry to service?


If you follow the introduction of any new equipment, you'll quickly find out that each introduction goes through the same cycle. There are always bugs to work out, and initial breakdowns are usually minor issues that can be worked out. Anyone who remembers the PL42AC's introduction can vouch for this. They were considered near-lemons for the first year or so after their introduction, but now, they seem to work just fine. You need to give equipment somewhere between 2-5 years (two to make sure the introduction bugs are worked out, and 5 to make sure no chronic problems develop early on in their lives) before you can make a judgement call on whether to worry about them or write them off as lemons.


----------



## jacorbett70

601 on train 129 today


----------



## ACS-64

600 having some air issues.

601 steadily on the #184/#129 all week.

602 on #127/#198 today.


----------



## engr08

The 602 maybe on 91 tomorrow, ill confirm in the morning


----------



## jis

600 was at Ivy City pan up today at around 4pm as I passed by on 2172.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

I've been told by friends who used to be in the automotive industry that you don't really want to buy one of the first 100 cars off a production line, because the production line is still working out bugs.

The railway car & locomotive production lines are *much* slower, so it isn't the first 100, more like the first 5, but you still expect a much higher rate of trouble in the first few vehicles off the line.

As various bugs get worked out, there will be very minor changes to design and construction. The earliest vehicles off the line will need a bunch of little retrofits to get them up to the same standard as the later ones. This is normal and not a big deal.


----------



## engr08

neroden said:


> I've been told by friends who used to be in the automotive industry that you don't really want to buy one of the first 100 cars off a production line, because the production line is still working out bugs.
> 
> The railway car & locomotive production lines are *much* slower, so it isn't the first 100, more like the first 5, but you still expect a much higher rate of trouble in the first few vehicles off the line.
> 
> As various bugs get worked out, there will be very minor changes to design and construction. The earliest vehicles off the line will need a bunch of little retrofits to get them up to the same standard as the later ones. This is normal and not a big deal.


Very well said sir, on that note the 600 was out and about on train 152.


----------



## jacorbett70

602 leading train 97 this evening

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacorbett70/13569012585/


----------



## Acela150

605 heading up the Shoreline tonight. Crew on duty at NYP at 1130pm. Should return south tomorrow.


----------



## jacorbett70

602 arrived just now at PHL leading train 129.

Edit to add: 601 was on 92 this evening. I do not know why it lost time in WAS and on its way to BAL.


----------



## Guest

Anyone know which trains tomorrow will have the ACS64 Locos?


----------



## HAL

neroden said:


> I've been told by friends who used to be in the automotive industry that you don't really want to buy one of the first 100 cars off a production line, because the production line is still working out bugs.
> 
> The railway car & locomotive production lines are *much* slower, so it isn't the first 100, more like the first 5, but you still expect a much higher rate of trouble in the first few vehicles off the line.
> 
> As various bugs get worked out, there will be very minor changes to design and construction. The earliest vehicles off the line will need a bunch of little retrofits to get them up to the same standard as the later ones. This is normal and not a big deal.


I was recently able to look at one both inside and outside, experience it in service, and I am converted from a skeptic to a believer! There are some bugs to be worked out... but these are quality locomotives. Amtrak has had nothing built as well and beautifully as these before. I believe they are going to make a big improvement to NEC service.


----------



## engr08

HAL said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been told by friends who used to be in the automotive industry that you don't really want to buy one of the first 100 cars off a production line, because the production line is still working out bugs.
> 
> The railway car & locomotive production lines are *much* slower, so it isn't the first 100, more like the first 5, but you still expect a much higher rate of trouble in the first few vehicles off the line.
> 
> As various bugs get worked out, there will be very minor changes to design and construction. The earliest vehicles off the line will need a bunch of little retrofits to get them up to the same standard as the later ones. This is normal and not a big deal.
> 
> 
> 
> I was recently able to look at one both inside and outside, experience it in service, and I am converted from a skeptic to a believer! There are some bugs to be worked out... but these are quality locomotives. Amtrak has had nothing built as well and beautifully as these before. I believe they are going to make a big improvement to NEC service.
Click to expand...

I ran the 600 on train 91 the other day and your right this motor is great. The dynamic brake works very well and if you guys were wondering you can bring this motor down to 1mph using dynamic. Amtrak finally put theres heads together and came up with something thats finally good.


----------



## jacorbett70

Saw all three on April 5

600- train 192 (or at least on 192's exact schedule)

601- train 19

602- train 159


----------



## Fan Railer

To all you engineers who run the ACS-64 out there; how did Dovetail Games do with the programming of the TS2014 ACS-64? Do you think they managed to hit the nail on the head in terms of simulating the thing?
Round trip from NYP to New Haven and back:


----------



## Acela150

FR does the simulator come with the horn and e-bell or did you add those??


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> FR does the simulator come with the horn and e-bell or did you add those??


Those are the default sounds that I sent them to include in the purchase.


----------



## EMDSD14R

Can anyone here confirm that ACS64 605 will be testing on the Keystone Corridor of the 27 of this month. I've been hearing some things about it but I need hard proof any info will be grateful. Thanks everyone!!


----------



## OBS

EMDSD14R said:


> Can anyone here confirm that ACS64 605 will be testing on the Keystone Corridor of the 27 of this month. I've been hearing some things about it but I need hard proof any info will be grateful. Thanks everyone!!


That is 12 days away. A lot can happen in 12 days that would negate any "hard truth" you get today.


----------



## EMDSD14R

I know that a lot can happen in 12 days. I just need to know if that's the date they said it might be. I prepare for things like that way ahead of time so that my equipment is ready along with my schedule changes for things like that. I do film these rare catches as often as I can. Any info will be helpful thanks again.


----------



## Agent

This says there may have been an ACS-64 (AMTK 611) placed on Amtrak #6(19) today. Anyone get a chance to see this train leave?


----------



## ACS-64

Agent said:


> This says there may have been an ACS-64 (AMTK 611) placed on Amtrak #6(19) today. Anyone get a chance to see this train leave?


Was removed before departure. #6(20) at the earliest.


----------



## Cristobal

I saw it this morning on the CZ leaving Emeryville 'topless'. I don't know what that's all about but I first saw it last night in the Oakland yard as we cruised past (was on a points run from SJC to EMY and back). 611 has no 'roof'. :huh:


----------



## ACS-64

Cristobal said:


> I saw it this morning on the CZ leaving Emeryville 'topless'. I don't know what that's all about but I first saw it last night in the Oakland yard as we cruised past (was on a points run from SJC to EMY and back). 611 has no 'roof'. :huh:


For reference, there was some discussion about the roof appearance and Roof Shrouds back in this thread around 03 DEC 2013.


----------



## NE933

They decided to put the wheels on the roof and run it upside down....


----------



## Agent

YouTube user Narodnie Mstiteli uploaded this video of AMTK 611 on #6(20):


----------



## Fan Railer

Hearing reports that 174 has an ACS-64 on it today. Confirmation?


----------



## MetraUPWest

When I first saw these locomotives I honestly thought they were ugly. They grew on me fast, though. They really look sharp!!


----------



## Fan Railer

Confirmation that 600 is on 174 today.


----------



## Fan Railer

Just passing along what I've heard; take it with a grain of salt: "603 will be on train 184 and the 605 will be on train 84..." no date provided, but I think it's safe to presume that if it's not today, it's some time this week.


----------



## engr08

Just to give you guys the heads up ACS64 units numbers 603 and 605 will be in revenue service today on trains 184 and 84.


----------



## engr08

Fan Railer said:


> Just passing along what I've heard; take it with a grain of salt: "603 will be on train 184 and the 605 will be on train 84..." no date provided, but I think it's safe to presume that if it's not today, it's some time this week.


They are in service today a following engineer told me he saw the 603 and the 605 ready to go


----------



## afigg

engr08 said:


> Just to give you guys the heads up ACS64 units numbers 603 and 605 will be in revenue service today on trains 184 and 84.


Those are WAS to NYP Regionals, so the ACS-64's are still limited to NYP-WAS operations. Any word or reports on when a fix will be implemented and deployed for the power changes north of NYP?


----------



## engr08

afigg said:


> engr08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to give you guys the heads up ACS64 units numbers 603 and 605 will be in revenue service today on trains 184 and 84.
> 
> 
> 
> Those are WAS to NYP Regionals, so the ACS-64's are still limited to NYP-WAS operations. Any word or reports on when a fix will be implemented and deployed for the power changes north of NYP?
Click to expand...

The 600 made a trip up to Boston on train 174 and was only two minutes late, I would say things may have gone well. I would ask more questions to make sure.


----------



## EMDSD14R

I got a friend that works at 30th street he say's 605 will be on train 176 to Boston.


----------



## EMDSD14R

Never mind 605 is on train 84 . My friend asked again 605 is on train 84 NOT train 176..Sorry yo'll and 84 is running a bit late.


----------



## Agent

Filmed the _California Zephyr_ with ACS-64 No. 611 at the station in Ottumwa, Iowa today. Hopefully there will be another 611 running in good time.



Edit: The weak-stomached may want to skip over the park around the 2:06 mark.


----------



## MetraUPWest

Awesome video!

I saw 611 sitting in the shop in Chicago when I was running Metra train 831 home. It was still sandwiched between 170 and 45. That was the first I've seen an ACS-64 in person. I really like it!! They look SO much better than I originally thought they would.


----------



## Agent

MetraUPWest said:


> Awesome video!


Thanks.


----------



## ACS-64

601

on

174

to

Boston


----------



## MetraUPWest

I saw 611 hanging around the Chicago shop earlier. It should be headed eastbound and down on the Capitol Limited.


----------



## PaulM

Agent said:


> Filmed the _California Zephyr_ with ACS-64 No. 611 at the station in Ottumwa, Iowa today.


Is the platform's new open air look permanent?


----------



## Agent

PaulM said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Filmed the _California Zephyr_ with ACS-64 No. 611 at the station in Ottumwa, Iowa today.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the platform's new open air look permanent?
Click to expand...

I'm hoping it isn't, but I haven't been able to find much information about them. It's been like this for months now.


----------



## Train person

Agent said:


> YouTube user Narodnie Mstiteli uploaded this video of AMTK 611 on #6(20):


Slightly off topic question but the third vehicle in that consist, is it a normal Superliner sleeper? Seems to have no lower level windows, or am I missing something?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The consist consists of

P42

Acs-64

P42

Heritage baggage

Transdorm

Coach Baggage

Coach

Coach

Sightseer

Diner

Sleeper

Sleeper


----------



## train person

Ah, looking at the train the wrong way round then, last time I did the CZ the sleepers were all at the front....


----------



## Nathan Justice

Hi

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


----------



## EMDSD14R

Filmed ACS64 604 returning from Harrisburg today here is the video link enjoy everyone!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lulMx-Quys


----------



## Fan Railer

word is 604 to boston today for its acceptance run; to head back south tomorrow.


----------



## CHamilton

I am behind 600 on the southbound Crescent today, coming into WAS.


----------



## Acela150

CHamilton said:


> I am behind 600 on the southbound Crescent today, coming into WAS.


WTH!!! A west coaster gets to ride behind a ACS before meeeeee??!!


----------



## CHamilton

Just lucky, I guess


----------



## Fan Railer

604 to hit the rails 5/9/14 WAS-NYP-WAS on another test run, word has.


----------



## Acela150

604 will be hot on the heels of 56 to NYP today the 9th and will promptly turn back and head south upon arrival into NYP.


----------



## CHamilton

"The controls of Amtrak ACS-64 604 while on display in Washington for National Train Day celebration."

Posted to the Amtrak group on Facebook by Patrick Lynch. Reposted here with his permission.


----------



## jis

And here is my picture of it, posted on the NTD thread too....






Of course posted with my permission 

And here it is as seen from the outside:






And another one, a view from the other end this time....






It was supplying HEP to a string of Superliners and Amfleets attached to it.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You should withhold your permission and reprimand yourself.


----------



## jis

Right. I am sending it for arbitration


----------



## hastybob

The 612 and 613 are heading to Sacramento tomorrow.


----------



## neroden

CHamilton said:


> The controls of Amtrak ACS-64 604 while on display in Washington for National Train Day celebration.


I find it amusing that pride of place in the very center of the controls is... a clipboard for paper. Sometimes the old ways are best.


----------



## afigg

hastybob said:


> The 612 and 613 are heading to Sacramento tomorrow.


Good. There has not been an update posted here in a while on the deployment into service of the ACS-64s, although there have been reports on rr.net. I think maybe 6 units are now in revenue service on the southern end of the NEC? A comprehensive update would be useful if someone has been keeping track.

I did see a report on trainorders that 5 of the 15 HHP-8s have been retired. The 15 HHP-8s may get mothballed before the last of the AEM-7DC units.


----------



## engr08

7 units are in service


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> I did see a report on trainorders that 5 of the 15 HHP-8s have been retired. The 15 HHP-8s may get mothballed before the last of the AEM-7DC units.


General chit-chat on various railroad boards has indicated that the engineers and maintenance people Do Not Like the HHP-8s. It's also a very small class of locomotive (only 15), which creates spare parts headaches. Also, the ACS-64 numbering range is set to overlap the HHP-8 numbering range. So the HHP-8s probably will be retired first.


----------



## MARC Rider

I got my first ride behind one last evening on 188 (#602), and then as we were waiting to leave, I saw the southbound Silver Meteor come in to WAS being pulled by #600. It was a nice ride, we made it to West Baltimore in less than 30 minutes. We might have come in ahead of schedule except that we stopped outside the West Baltimore MARC station and thenvcrawled through part of the tunnel. I think maybe we had run up on the preceding MARC train.


----------



## MARC Rider

I had my first ride behind an ACS-64 last night (#602) and as we were waiting to leave WAS, we say the SilvervMeteor come in, being pulled by #600.


----------



## battalion51

neroden said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> The controls of Amtrak ACS-64 604 while on display in Washington for National Train Day celebration.
> 
> 
> 
> I find it amusing that pride of place in the very center of the controls is... a clipboard for paper. Sometimes the old ways are best.
Click to expand...

Even with the redundancies in place with PTC/ACSES that will only grow in the next few years, I think it will be awhile yet before paper orders go by the wayside (no pun intended). Computer systems can fail, but when it comes to complying with speed restrictions there's no better fail safe than a piece of paper and a trained crew.


----------



## Acela150

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did see a report on trainorders that 5 of the 15 HHP-8s have been retired. The 15 HHP-8s may get mothballed before the last of the AEM-7DC units.
> 
> 
> 
> General chit-chat on various railroad boards has indicated that the engineers and maintenance people Do Not Like the HHP-8s. It's also a very small class of locomotive (only 15), which creates spare parts headaches. Also, the ACS-64 numbering range is set to overlap the HHP-8 numbering range. So the HHP-8s probably will be retired first.
Click to expand...

It's well known that almost everybody can't stand them.


----------



## MattW

battalion51 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> The controls of Amtrak ACS-64 604 while on display in Washington for National Train Day celebration.
> 
> 
> 
> I find it amusing that pride of place in the very center of the controls is... a clipboard for paper. Sometimes the old ways are best.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even with the redundancies in place with PTC/ACSES that will only grow in the next few years, I think it will be awhile yet before paper orders go by the wayside (no pun intended). Computer systems can fail, but when it comes to complying with speed restrictions there's no better fail safe than a piece of paper and a trained crew.
Click to expand...

Plus I assume special orders can cover more than what can be enforced with PTC/ACSES such as orders dealing with horns, braking method, sand use, general info on what's happening on different tracks etc. I'll admit I'm guessing here, so I hope someone that knows more can chime in, but I'm assuming that such things could be covered. Plus, even in PTC areas, won't form Ds or whatever each railroad uses have to be issued for operating against the signals, or will PTC/ACSES render all tracks effectively bi-directionally signaled?


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

Even as advanced as the Eurostsr and the TGV are running on the TVM 430 system they still have paper backing them up. Never hurts to see it on paper before you see it in the field.


----------



## jis

Until the railroads decide to issue iPads or such to engineers, like airlines have started doing for pilots, paper will still be around in a big way. Of course the flight bag of a pilot is probably a much heavier thing than the equivalent for an engineer, and both space and weight are at much greater premium on planes. So the incentive for going digital on planes is greater.


----------



## Fan Railer

Word is floating around that 612-613 are scheduled to begin their eastbound trek Saturday morning (5/24) on the Zephyr.


----------



## edjbox

is #607 in regular service yet? I saw it in the Ivy City engine house, looks like being cleaned or something


----------



## Fan Railer

No further engines are being released for revenue service until the bugs have been worked out, as per what I've read from reliable sources. As far as I remember, 606 was the last unit accepted.


----------



## Fan Railer

Fan Railer said:


> Word is floating around that 612-613 are scheduled to begin their eastbound trek Saturday morning (5/24) on the Zephyr.


Not on the 6 today. Check back tomorrow or Monday.


----------



## CHamilton

According to a Facebook poster, 6(24) was apparently an hour late leaving EMY due to brake problems on the loco. And he didn't say anything about extra engines (which I'm sure he would have noticed).


----------



## Dutchrailnut

The delay was due to having problems with the two ACS-64's, they(612-613) were set out and train left hour late after putting power back together.


----------



## Fan Railer

612 & 613 made it on the Zephyr today (5/25). Should be approaching Salt Lake City in a few hours.


----------



## Fan Railer

Credits to the original video uploader:


----------



## Acela150

My pet peeve... Shooting into the sun..


----------



## Agent

Too many clouds to shoot into the sun when I caught #6(25) east of Ottumwa, Iowa (not that I'm entirely immune to shooting into the sun though).

Anyway, the private car that was on the end of this _Zephyr_ isn't there anymore. I guess it was left in Denver. I wonder if that's related to the Denver sleeping car getting picked up there.


----------



## Fan Railer

ACS-64 Action on 5/29/14:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPFadhq3kNo
600 - 84 (Princeton Junction) / 193 (Cornwells Heights)
601 - 19 (Trenton)
602 - 91 (Princeton Junction) /92 (Cornwells Heights w/ horn salute)
603 - 127 (Cornwells Heights)
604 - 90 (apparently, but I missed it by 30 min)
605 - 20 (Princeton Junction)
606 - 184 (Princeton Junction) / 129 (Cornwells Heights)


----------



## Fan Railer




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## Acela150

Nice shots FR!


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## Acela150

Got a nice foto of 602 on 131 this morning.


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## Acela150

Foto of 602


Had a nice meet too! I got lucky that Septic didn't screw me in that case.


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## engr08

Great shots


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## Acela150

Thanks!


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## amtrakwolverine

Well you can scratch 2 new ACS-64s off the list. On may 28th ACS-64s 612 and 613 being towed on the cap had a major issue that non of the crew thought was bad enough to remove them. After ignoring the glowing red hot wheels they locked up 20 minutes out of pittsburge where it tied up the mainline for hours. The problem was noticed out of cleaveland when the wheels were found to be glowing orange but nothing was done about it and the crew continued on untill about 20 minutes after leaving PGH the wheels on the ACS-64s seize up.Damage is said to be in the 6 figures. This is via a post on TO. Caused the cap to be 5 hours late into washington.


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## neroden

Ouch. I'd hope that would be covered under warranty -- or if the crew really screwed up, I suppose it might be taken out of their wages for the next several years.

Reading the post on trainorders, I am really surprised that they didn't put the engines into a siding in Toledo (which really should have enough tracks), or Cleveland (which might have enough sidings), or at least Pittsburgh (which definitely has a suitable siding).


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## Ryan

Isn't that the kind of thing that a defect detector is supposed to check for?


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## Fan Railer

On another note, 609 starts her shakedown runs tomorrow.


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## jis

neroden said:


> Ouch. I'd hope that would be covered under warranty -- or if the crew really screwed up, I suppose it might be taken out of their wages for the next several years.
> 
> Reading the post on trainorders, I am really surprised that they didn't put the engines into a siding in Toledo (which really should have enough tracks), or Cleveland (which might have enough sidings), or at least Pittsburgh (which definitely has a suitable siding).


Frankly, I have never heard of a car inspector just agreeing to run a train with a glowing hot axle in regular service with a bunch of passengers on board. I have no idea what the circumstances were but this strikes me as truly bizarre. Who was going to be responsible if there was a derailment? How would anyone know for sure how and when the bearing would fail? The NJT Arrow derailment at Portal happened because of a bearing failure after that rain was run with a hot axle that the crew failed to detect because they did not apparently know how to use a Tempel stick.
[shakes his head in utter disbelief!]

Interestingly, how did they manage to run through all those hot axle/defect detectors without anyone raising an alarm?


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## Agent

This is the only video I could find of the two newest ACS-64s on the _Capitol Limited_. The wheels aren't even visible, but perhaps someone that can interpret the jargon over the radio can find something of interest.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL

Sounds like the traction motors locked up. I can't think of anything else that would do that. Whoever decided to drag anything with wheels locked up and over heating is an idiot.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL

Of course it is unprecedented in Europe to have a locomotive dead in tow for over 3,000 miles. Siemens may have underestimated the stress on the gearing in the locomotives on such a long trip.


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## Fan Railer

I read elsewhere that this has to do with misplacement of the MU cables in the lower # units, resulting in a locking up of the brakes in-transit.


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## EMDSD14R

Wow that's something. I wonder if they changed some things in these units that they didn't do on the others. That's messed up. They're lucky the train didn't derail.


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## NE933

Glowing red/orange wheels?!! And the smell of burning all the way to the last car? How the hell this happened?!


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## PerRock

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Of course it is unprecedented in Europe to have a locomotive dead in tow for over 3,000 miles. Siemens may have underestimated the stress on the gearing in the locomotives on such a long trip.


Doubtful. There are quite a few ACS-64s that have made the trip already without incident.

peter


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## bgiaquin

Um.. if the wheels are damaged, how the hell are they going to get back to siemens.


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## Ryan

Who said anything about them going back to Siemens?


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## jis

Yeah worst case they bring in wheel sets and replace the entire assembly. If damage is worse than that they can always re-truck on temporary trucks to get them to Wilmington. I am sure they can do everything in Wilmington that is needed to fix it. At best it will be a good first hand experience.


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## afigg

NE933 said:


> Glowing red/orange wheels?!! And the smell of burning all the way to the last car? How the hell this happened?!


I expect management is asking the same questions. Damaging expensive brand new equipment is not a good career move.


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## Amtrak172

Wow, there not even in service for a year and there already having problems with them. Is it just me, or is this saying something? I really do like the ACS-64's but it's to soon to be having problems with them.


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## Ryan

No equipment is ever rolled out without some initial bugs. They'll work themselves out.


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## PerRock

discounting the two that had issues in Ohio recently, which we don't really know what caused the problem yet (although it was definitely made worse by the crew, if not fully created by them.) There hasn't really been that much of any issues with them. With any major vehicle you're going to have teething issues with the first couple off the line. This is true for anything including automobiles, it just because this is Amtrak you're actually hearing a lot more about the testing & the issues.

peter


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## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> Wow, there not even in service for a year and there already having problems with them. Is it just me, or is this saying something? I really do like the ACS-64's but it's to soon to be having problems with them.


It's just you I am afraid  
The introduction of ACS-64s so far has been surprisingly smooth when compared to the last round of new equipment introduction on the NEC.


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## Ryan

You only know that 'cause you're so old.


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## jis

Yeah, having even lived through the introduction of AEM-7s and Amfleet Is (and not to mention those E60s too!)! Those were heady days, when what was truly decrepit was being replaced by spanking new stuff. Those who have not been through that period have no idea what a spectacularly wonderful state the NEC is in now compared to back then!


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## Amtrak172

I'm surprised your not old enough to remember the old f7's or the steam era. Look at my latest post in Amtrak America branding


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## Amtrak172

jis said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, there not even in service for a year and there already having problems with them. Is it just me, or is this saying something? I really do like the ACS-64's but it's to soon to be having problems with them.
> 
> 
> 
> It's just you I am afraid
> The introduction of ACS-64s so far has been surprisingly smooth when compared to the last round of new equipment introduction on the NEC.
Click to expand...


There was an issue with the headlights though. The heat from the lights cracked the glass on 603


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## Ryan

There are other issues as well. It's still been a fairly smooth rollout.


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## jis

The last major new equipment introduction on the NEC were the Acelas and the HHP-8s. The HHP-8s have never really worked smoothly and they are turning out to be the first to go. Acelas had to be withdrawn from service completely twice, after being delayed quite a bit in the original introduction. Compared to that ACS-64s so far have been a breeze. That was my point.

Actually, Amfleet introduction was relatively smooth, as was AEM-7. OTOH Metroliners were as dicey as they get. But at that time we were trying to outdo the Japanese on the cheap. You get exactly what you pay for. And then there were the E60s, oh well.... they could not even reliably stay on the rails at their original design speed.


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## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> I'm surprised your not old enough to remember the old f7's or the steam era. Look at my latest post in Amtrak America branding


I guess you are yet to catch up on reading my postings there perhaps?
Truth be told I was not in this country in that era. But I was traveling exclusively on trains pulled by Baldwin and IR designed WP Class Steam Engines. Saw Alco Century derived engines (WDM-2) introduced, and also the French 50Hz Group and the Hitachi-Mitsubishi-Toshiba consortium produces 25kV electric power introduced (WAM-1, WAM-2 and WAM-3), both to replace Steam. This was back in India in the late 50's and early 60's. OTOH even then the beautiful Garratts (ex-BNR M, N and P Class) were still running out their last miles hauling heavy coal trains. Saw literally many thousands of km brought under catenary, and American LD trains inspired trains with Air Conditioned Chair Cars (Coaches) introduced.

The first time I came to this country was in 1965 when the North East Corridor was pretty much falling apart. There were just a few remaining flagship trains slowly running out their last miles into oblivion. GG-1s and FL-9s were doing the honors. The commuter EMUs looked like something out of the inter-war era. I was floored to see how bad the system was back then.


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## Amtrak172

jis said:


> The last major new equipment introduction on the NEC were the Acelas and the HHP-8s. The HHP-8s have never really worked smoothly and they are turning out to be the first to go. Acelas had to be withdrawn from service completely twice, after being delayed quite a bit in the original introduction. Compared to that ACS-64s so far have been a breeze. That was my point.
> 
> Actually, Amfleet introduction was relatively smooth, as was AEM-7. OTOH Metroliners were as dicey as they get. But at that time we were trying to outdo the Japanese on the cheap. You get exactly what you pay for. And then there were the E60s, oh well.... they could not even reliably stay on the rails at their original design speed.





Amtrak test many different high speed trains from Germany, France, and Sweden before developing their first very own high speed train. The Acela is obviously Amtrak's first very own high speed train so they probably didn't know how to maintain them at the time. As for the AEM-7's and the HHP-8's. Amtrak will be keeping some of the good AEM-7's for mostly switching and for backup engines. The HHP-8's will be sticking around a little longer than the AEM-7's. Only some of them are retired because of mechanical issues that couldn't be fixed.

Amtrak172


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## Acela150

Amtrak172 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The last major new equipment introduction on the NEC were the Acelas and the HHP-8s. The HHP-8s have never really worked smoothly and they are turning out to be the first to go. Acelas had to be withdrawn from service completely twice, after being delayed quite a bit in the original introduction. Compared to that ACS-64s so far have been a breeze. That was my point.
> 
> Actually, Amfleet introduction was relatively smooth, as was AEM-7. OTOH Metroliners were as dicey as they get. But at that time we were trying to outdo the Japanese on the cheap. You get exactly what you pay for. And then there were the E60s, oh well.... they could not even reliably stay on the rails at their original design speed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak test many different high speed trains from Germany, France, and Sweden before developing their first very own high speed train. The Acela is obviously Amtrak's first very own high speed train so they probably didn't know how to maintain them at the time. As for the AEM-7's and the HHP-8's. Amtrak will be keeping some of the good AEM-7's for mostly switching and for backup engines. The HHP-8's will be sticking around a little longer than the AEM-7's. Only some of them are retired because of mechanical issues that couldn't be fixed.
> 
> Amtrak172
Click to expand...

All but 4 or 5 of the AEM-7's will be scrapped of put on display. Those will potentially be used for Septa Push-Pull service. If not they will meet their demise. 5 HHP's are already gone. I got news for ya.. The Hippos are most likely going to go first then the Toasters. If you read back in the topic I'm sure that's covered. As well as other websites.

As for test trains that came from Germany, Sweden, and Spain, nothing came from France. AE is Amtrak's very first HST.


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## oldtimer

Actually in the summer of 1973 there were two RTG's were shipped into Port Elizabeth NJ from France. They were originally on the Chicago-St. Louis service (with a 4 hour 59minute running time). They were called Turboliners by Amtrak. In 1975additional services four additional trainsets were acquired and additional services were added in the Midwest.


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## Ziv

I am only 52 but I remember seeing a steam locomotive in use, in Belgrade Serbia... It was as recent as 2004, too.

I tried to get a picture but it was so dark my camera refused to focus. Did I think to set the focus to manual and shoot anyway? Uhm. No, I didn't. But it was cool to see the steam just billowing around the yard. That was the end of one of the most frustrating travel days of my life so I use that as an excuse for my failure to get the picture.



Amtrak172 said:


> I'm surprised your not old enough to remember the old f7's or the steam era. Look at my latest post in Amtrak America branding


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## Acela150

oldtimer said:


> Actually in the summer of 1973 there were two RTG's were shipped into Port Elizabeth NJ from France. They were originally on the Chicago-St. Louis service (with a 4 hour 59minute running time). They were called Turboliners by Amtrak. In 1975additional services four additional trainsets were acquired and additional services were added in the Midwest.


I totally forgot about those RTG's. Thanks for the correction!


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## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> The HHP-8's will be sticking around a little longer than the AEM-7's. Only some of them are retired because of mechanical issues that couldn't be fixed.


Sorry to break this to you.... but you are wrong. The last HHP-8 will be decommissioned before the last AEM-7 according to current plans.


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## Amtrak172

jis said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The HHP-8's will be sticking around a little longer than the AEM-7's. Only some of them are retired because of mechanical issues that couldn't be fixed.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to break this to you.... but you are wrong. The last HHP-8 will be decommissioned before the last AEM-7 according to current plans.
Click to expand...



Oops!!!!! I'm wrong!!!!!!! I my god, thanks for telling me because I had no freakin clue!!!! The information that I told you was the existing information. I WAS TOLD MY AN AMTRAK EMPLOYEE WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THE FLEET PLAN!!! Sorry to say that he never mentioned his name.

Amtrak172


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## Ryan

Chill out, dude.


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## Ryan

Also:


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## neroden

The last HHP-8s probably are going to stick around longer than the last AEM-7s, even though the HHP-8s will probably be taken out of service first. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't.

Why? The leasing arrangements. I expect several of the HHP-8s to be sitting stored dead for quite a while until Amtrak can get out of the leases. The AEM-7DCs and the wholly-owned AEM-7ACs can be disposed of on Amtrak's schedule. The leased equipment is more of a problem, because the leases still have years to run. I don't know what the terms of the leases are exactly, but I expect the lessors will want their money, and so Amtrak will probably be stuck making lease payments on the HHP-8s after they are removed from service. I expect that the lease terms will discourage scrapping until the lease is over.

...also, I'm not sure, but it looks like the HHP-8 leases run further into the future than the AEM-7AC leases.


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## afigg

neroden said:


> The last HHP-8s probably are going to stick around longer than the last AEM-7s, even though the HHP-8s will probably be taken out of service first. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't.
> 
> Why? The leasing arrangements. I expect several of the HHP-8s to be sitting stored dead for quite a while until Amtrak can get out of the leases. The AEM-7DCs and the wholly-owned AEM-7ACs can be disposed of on Amtrak's schedule. The leased equipment is more of a problem, because the leases still have years to run. I don't know what the terms of the leases are exactly, but I expect the lessors will want their money, and so Amtrak will probably be stuck making lease payments on the HHP-8s after they are removed from service. I expect that the lease terms will discourage scrapping until the lease is over.


But the HHP-8 won't be in active service, just placed in storage. Along with the AEM-7DCs and ACs, as the DC and AC units are either kept in storage or disposed of. The only practical difference to the railfans is sightings and photos of HHP-8s stored dead on a track at one of Amtrak's facilities. None of the AEM-7s and HHP-8s will be in active service except for 5 AEM-7ACs possibly leased to SEPTA for interim use. The only real difference to Amtrak is the lease payments on the HHP-8s until they can return them versus getting some revenue in the scrap value of some of the DC and AC units.


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## neroden

Looking at that decomissioning schedule, I find it odd. I would have expected the more "poor reliability" units to be decommissioned before the more reliable units, at least within any one type of locomotive. But instead one of the worst AEM-7DCs is apparently supposed to be kept in service until late, and one of the best HHP-8s is scheduled to be decommissioned early. Or I might have expected one type to be eliminated entirely early on, but nope, all three types survive until near the end of the list. Maybe this has something to do with lease buyout or expiration dates or something, or maybe there's some other subtle differences between different units driving these decisions.


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## Ryan

Likely it is scheduled for units to leave service when scheduled maintenance/inspections are due.


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## Amtrak172

neroden said:


> The last HHP-8s probably are going to stick around longer than the last AEM-7s, even though the HHP-8s will probably be taken out of service first. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't.
> 
> Why? The leasing arrangements. I expect several of the HHP-8s to be sitting stored dead for quite a while until Amtrak can get out of the leases. The AEM-7DCs and the wholly-owned AEM-7ACs can be disposed of on Amtrak's schedule. The leased equipment is more of a problem, because the leases still have years to run. I don't know what the terms of the leases are exactly, but I expect the lessors will want their money, and so Amtrak will probably be stuck making lease payments on the HHP-8s after they are removed from service. I expect that the lease terms will discourage scrapping until the lease is over.
> 
> ...also, I'm not sure, but it looks like the HHP-8 leases run further into the future than the AEM-7AC leases.





Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say.

Amtrak172


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## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> Likely it is scheduled for units to leave service when scheduled maintenance/inspections are due.






Probably. Or when all of the ACS-64's enter service.

Amtrak172


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## Ryan

Amtrak172 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I expect several of the HHP-8s to be sitting stored dead for quite a while until Amtrak can get out of the leases. The AEM-7DCs and the wholly-owned AEM-7ACs can be disposed of on Amtrak's schedule. The leased equipment is more of a problem, because the leases still have years to run. I don't know what the terms of the leases are exactly, but I expect the lessors will want their money, and so Amtrak will probably be stuck making lease payments on the HHP-8s after they are removed from service. I expect that the lease terms will discourage scrapping until the lease is over.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say.
Click to expand...

That may have been what you were trying to say, but it isn't what you said:



Amtrak172 said:


> The HHP-8's will be sticking around a little longer than the AEM-7's. Only some of them are retired because of mechanical issues that couldn't be fixed.


If you were talking about "sticking around" in the sense of "stored dead out of service", their ability to be fixed wouldn't matter.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Looking at that decomissioning schedule, I find it odd. I would have expected the more "poor reliability" units to be decommissioned before the more reliable units, at least within any one type of locomotive. But instead one of the worst AEM-7DCs is apparently supposed to be kept in service until late, and one of the best HHP-8s is scheduled to be decommissioned early. Or I might have expected one type to be eliminated entirely early on, but nope, all three types survive until near the end of the list. Maybe this has something to do with lease buyout or expiration dates or something, or maybe there's some other subtle differences between different units driving these decisions.


I found that a bit odd too Nathaniel, so I discreetly asked around. And the explanation is exactly what Ryan said in this thread in response to you. Also apparently the deal with SEPTA is in the works. It has not been closed yet.
I wonder whatever came of the idea of converting a few of the AEM-7s that are in relatively better mechanical shape, into cabbages. They'd probably provide better protection than the Capitoliner Cab Cars in a grade crossing accident, so would possibly be desirable for use on trains that run outside of the sealed corridor with cab cars.

BTW, here's some more on 612 and 613 from someone in the know....



> Ive got some great news. The ACS 612 is in perfect running order. Just had a great conversation with a Siemens Technician. The 613 has some issues but it's not as bad as initially speculated. Got a couple shots of the 613 in the annex building


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> I found that a bit odd too Nathaniel, so I discreetly asked around. And the explanation is exactly what Ryan said in this thread in response to you. Also apparently the deal with SEPTA is in the works. It has not been closed yet.
> 
> I wonder whatever came of the idea of converting a few of the AEM-7s that are in relatively better mechanical shape, into cabbages. They'd probably provide better protection than the Capitoliner Cab Cars in a grade crossing accident, so would possibly be desirable for use on trains that run outside of the sealed corridor with cab cars.
> 
> BTW, here's some more on 612 and 613 from someone in the know....


It makes sense to have the planned retirement sequence mostly determined by the maintenance cycle of AEM-7s and HHP-8s. Why spend money on scheduled maintenance if it is going to be retired soon? But the actual sequence is obviously going to be changed by locomotive failures. If a toaster or hippo needs an expensive repair or part and there are enough ACS-64s and remaining AEM-7s available, then off it goes to dead storage.
As for converting some AEM-7s to cab cars, I wonder if the plan was dropped due to the funding and placement of the order for the corridor bi-levels. The base order of 130 cars includes 24 cab-baggage cars. The Midwest and California corridors won't need converted locomotive car cars. So Amtrak will only need to supply cab cars for the eastern trains and they may have enough on-hand for now. They can still cherry pick a batch of the less beaten up AEM-7s for dead storage for possible future cab car conversion 5 or 10 years from now.

Some of those bi-level cab-baggage cars are going to get banged up in grade crossing accidents; perhaps the proposed 42 car option includes a few extra cab-baggage cars.

Good to hear that the problem during the #612,#613 CL move was with only 1 unit and that the damage was not serious, despite GenePoon's rather alarmist post to trainorders.


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found that a bit odd too Nathaniel, so I discreetly asked around. And the explanation is exactly what Ryan said in this thread in response to you. Also apparently the deal with SEPTA is in the works. It has not been closed yet.
> 
> I wonder whatever came of the idea of converting a few of the AEM-7s that are in relatively better mechanical shape, into cabbages. They'd probably provide better protection than the Capitoliner Cab Cars in a grade crossing accident, so would possibly be desirable for use on trains that run outside of the sealed corridor with cab cars.
> 
> BTW, here's some more on 612 and 613 from someone in the know....
> 
> 
> 
> It makes sense to have the planned retirement sequence mostly determined by the maintenance cycle of AEM-7s and HHP-8s. Why spend money on scheduled maintenance if it is going to be retired soon? But the actual sequence is obviously going to be changed by locomotive failures. If a toaster or hippo needs an expensive repair or part and there are enough ACS-64s and remaining AEM-7s available, then off it goes to dead storage.
> As for converting some AEM-7s to cab cars, I wonder if the plan was dropped due to the funding and placement of the order for the corridor bi-levels. The base order of 130 cars includes 24 cab-baggage cars. The Midwest and California corridors won't need converted locomotive car cars. So Amtrak will only need to supply cab cars for the eastern trains and they may have enough on-hand for now. They can still cherry pick a batch of the less beaten up AEM-7s for dead storage for possible future cab car conversion 5 or 10 years from now.
> 
> Some of those bi-level cab-baggage cars are going to get banged up in grade crossing accidents; perhaps the proposed 42 car option includes a few extra cab-baggage cars.
> 
> Good to hear that the problem during the #612,#613 CL move was with only 1 unit and that the damage was not serious, despite GenePoon's rather alarmist post to trainorders.
Click to expand...

agreed, and converted locomotives (be they AEM-7 s or any thing else) are more solid and robust than passenger cars. Most purpose built cab cars are just passenger cars with a cab fitted (even if they don't actively carry passengers). So in case of a crossing collision, a cab car that is a former locomotive is going to be more robust than a passenger car.


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> Likely it is scheduled for units to leave service when scheduled maintenance/inspections are due.


Ah! Makes sense.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> As for converting some AEM-7s to cab cars, I wonder if the plan was dropped due to the funding and placement of the order for the corridor bi-levels. The base order of 130 cars includes 24 cab-baggage cars. The Midwest and California corridors won't need converted locomotive car cars. So Amtrak will only need to supply cab cars for the eastern trains and they may have enough on-hand for now. They can still cherry pick a batch of the less beaten up AEM-7s for dead storage for possible future cab car conversion 5 or 10 years from now.


Amtrak has an excess of NPCUs right now.

It was pointed out in another place that the NPCUs have a top speed limitation of 100 mph. So the motivation for conversion of AEM-7s to NPCUs would only be to have *faster* cab cars. This consideration would currently apply only to trains running on the NEC, Keystone, Empire, Chicago-St. Louis, or Michigan lines. Michigan & Illinois are getting their own cab cars.

Cab cars are only really useful if the train has to reverse en-route, or if there's nowhere to wye the locomotive at the terminus. Considering only trains running on NEC/Keystone/Empire, this isn't very many routes.

For trains running entirely on the NEC or Keystone, there is relatively little worry about grade crossing accidents, since the entire line is grade-separated or soon will be. So the Keystones are better off with the lighter-weight (faster) Metroliner cab cars.

The Pennsylvanian swaps locomotives when it reverses, so it doesn't need a cab car.

The long-distance trains already run with two locomotives and can always run topped-and-tailed rather than using cab cars.

This doesn't leave many routes which would benefit from faster NPCUs. Basically just the Vermonter and the Springfield MA services which run through onto the NEC, thanks to the necessary en-route reversal at Springfield (I think there isn't a complete wye there and even if there is it would block the Boston-Albany mainline). When the Ethan Allen extension happens, the Ethan Allen would need a cab car as well, since there also isn't a complete wye at Rutland. However, I think it would probably be practical to attach/detach the NPCUs at Springfield and at Rutland respectively, and in that case they'd never need to go faster than 100 mph.

So there just isn't the demand for faster NPCUs.


----------



## jis

Actually, not having to wye Regionals at WAS and BOS would potentially save on a few consists while providing the same service frequency ... consists that could be deployed for additional service potentially. That is the primary reason that almost all Commuter roads went to push-pulls.

but I suppose that is neither here nor there.


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## R30A

The Regionals at Springfield somehow get turned, so I think there must be something which functions as a wye there. Unfortunately, I do not recall the exact layout west of the station, and cannot view it on google maps, as it is under I91...


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## Amtrak172

Is Amtrak planning on getting corridor bi-levels? This is the first time I'm hearing this.

Amtrak172


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## Acela150

Amtrak172 said:


> Is Amtrak planning on getting corridor bi-levels? This is the first time I'm hearing this.
> 
> Amtrak172


No.


----------



## Amtrak172

Acela150 said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is Amtrak planning on getting corridor bi-levels? This is the first time I'm hearing this.
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> 
> 
> No.
Click to expand...




Thanks.

Amtrak172


----------



## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> Is Amtrak planning on getting corridor bi-levels? This is the first time I'm hearing this.
> 
> Amtrak172


Well, depends on which corridor we are talking about....

For NEC, no.

But for the mid-west and California Corridors they have 130 corridor bi-levels on order, based on the Surfliner design. When these go on line, a number of Amfleets and Horizons used in the Midwest and California will be released for redeployment in the east mid-distance and possibly LD trains relieving some capacity crunch.

I know we in the Northeast are blamed about thinking only of the NEC. I just wanted to make sure the big Amtrak picture was taken into consideration in answering the question, specially since the deployment of those corridor b-levels will have knock on effects across the entire system.


----------



## Amtrak172

jis said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is Amtrak planning on getting corridor bi-levels? This is the first time I'm hearing this.
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> 
> 
> Well, depends on which corridor we are talking about....
> For NEC, no.
> 
> But for the mid-west and California Corridors they have 130 corridor bi-levels on order, based on the Surfliner design. When these go on line, a number of Amfleets and Horizons used in the Midwest and California will be released for redeployment in the east mid-distance and possibly LD trains relieving some capacity crunch.
> 
> I know we in the Northeast are blamed about thinking only of the NEC. I just wanted to make sure the big Amtrak picture was taken into consideration in answering the question, specially since the deployment of those corridor b-levels will have knock on effects across the entire system.
Click to expand...

That's good that the Amfleets and Horizons will be coming back to the northeast to operate. Does anyone know what Amtrak's planning on doing with the P42's? I heard that they placed an order for more.

Amtrak172


----------



## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> That's good that the Amfleets and Horizons will be coming back to the northeast to operate. Does anyone know what Amtrak's planning on doing with the P42's? I heard that they placed an order for more.
> 
> Amtrak172


Amtrak (well actually Illinois DOT on behalf of a handful of states) has placed an order for a number of diesel electric engines with Siemens. These are capable of running at upto 125mph and are for use on Corridor trains in the midwest and California. Their arrival will release some number of P42s for use in the LD network. At present there is no plan to decommission any P42 or P40s that are in service AFAIK.


----------



## R30A

New diesels are coming from Siemens, not GE, and because of that(and other reasons, including new EPA regulations) the new diesels will not be P42s. 

These new diesels will be going to California, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, and Washington.


----------



## Amtrak172

I hope these engines are good looking. I'm happy to hear that Amtrak is keeping the P42's.

Amtrak172


----------



## Green Maned Lion

They are supposed to look just like Marty Feldman from what I hear.


----------



## edjbox

I think that Amtrak should have high speed multilevel trainsets that will replace the Acela Express someday that are similar to the TGV Duplex- plus they fit under the North River Tunnels.


----------



## Paulus

edjbox said:


> I think that Amtrak should have high speed multilevel trainsets that will replace the Acela Express someday that are similar to the TGV Duplex- plus they fit under the North River Tunnels.


Alas, they're doing single level trainsets. No 1300 seat OuiGos for America.


----------



## Amtrak172

Green Maned Lion said:


> They are supposed to look just like Marty Feldman from what I hear.



They are?

Amtrak172


----------



## Ryan

edjbox said:


> I think that Amtrak should have high speed multilevel trainsets that will replace the Acela Express someday that are similar to the TGV Duplex- plus they fit under the North River Tunnels.


Why?
Multilevels are more difficult from an ADA perspective and have less room for baggage storage.

Maybe someday when we've maxed out train lengths and frequencies and still need more capacity we can talk about multilevels. But that day is a long way away.


----------



## edjbox

The commuter railroads like MARC and NJT have multilevels on the corridor and SEPTA is looking to add them as well. Remember Amtrak originally wanted to buy 40 more Acela coaches but that plan was shut down. It would have been hard to modify the maintenance facilities to handle the expanded trainsets.

Meanwhile, more people want to ride the Acelas but there is not enough capacity. That's where the mutilevels come in; they provide more capacity and the maintenance facilities won't have to be modified.


----------



## jis

edjbox said:


> Meanwhile, more people want to ride the Acelas but there is not enough capacity. That's where the mutilevels come in; they provide more capacity and the maintenance facilities won't have to be modified.


No they don't. That is where 10 car HSR consist come in. Maintenance facilities have to be modified anyway because 6 car sets will not suffice, and they don;t cost that much to modify in the overall scheme of things. Being guided by the length of 15 year old maintenance facilities is not a logical way of building a fleet strategy.


----------



## afigg

edjbox said:


> Meanwhile, more people want to ride the Acelas but there is not enough capacity. That's where the mutilevels come in; they provide more capacity and the maintenance facilities won't have to be modified.


You are overlooking how little capacity the 20 Acela trainsets have with 6 passenger cars and 303 seats. For a total of 6060 seats, although only 16 trainsets are in use on any given weekday.
Amtrak is seeking to order 28 HSR trainsets with 425 to 450 seats each. If the HSR trainsets have 435 seats in a 8 car EMU configuration, the 28 trainset fleet will have 12,180 seats, doubling the capacity of the current Acelas. If they fill those seats up, ok, then they can consider 10 car single level trainsets or dual level for the 3rd gen order.


----------



## Ryan

edjbox said:


> The commuter railroads like MARC and NJT have multilevels on the corridor and SEPTA is looking to add them as well.


In addition to the excellent points made above:

WAS - Perryville on MARC is about an hour 45.

Newark to Trenton on SEPTA is about 2 hours.

Trenton to NYP on NJT is anywhere between 50-80 minutes.

WAS-BOS on the Acela is 6 hours and 40 minutes.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

What 50 minute NYP schedule?


----------



## Ryan

I don't know what the heck I was looking at. 70-110 seems more accurate.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> The commuter railroads like MARC and NJT have multilevels on the corridor and SEPTA is looking to add them as well.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to the excellent points made above:
> 
> WAS - Perryville on MARC is about an hour 45.
> 
> Newark to Trenton on SEPTA is about 2 hours.
> 
> Trenton to NYP on NJT is anywhere between 50-80 minutes.
> 
> WAS-BOS on the Acela is 6 hours and 40 minutes.
Click to expand...

It's about an hour from PHL to TRE by Septa, 1 hour WIL to PHL, 90 minutes NRK to PHL. Sorry Ryan!


----------



## Ryan

Their website says you can do it in 2:03 or 2:08:


----------



## ralf

Just saw one heading south past Secaucus NJ at 5:48pm in regular service. Looked good!


----------



## hastybob

The 614 is out and should be on #6 today.


----------



## Agent

Here's AMTK 614 on Amtrak #6(13) running twelve hours late at Agency, Iowa. Normally they get the Sprinters onto the _Capitol Limited_ the next day. I wonder how long it will take this time.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

Nice shot of the idiot going around the gates.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Iunno, Blue, I always have.


----------



## NE933

I would take that video to the local precinct and have them enhance the image of the license plate. That pickup crossed the tracks less than 15 seconds before the train passed. Ought to be charged with attempted manslaugher.


----------



## Paulus

NE933 said:


> I would take that video to the local precinct and have them enhance the image of the license plate. That pickup crossed the tracks less than 15 seconds before the train passed. Ought to be charged with attempted manslaugher.


You can't just make up criminal charges to try and hit people with, especially when what they did is already provided for in the law. Advocating for red light cameras on every rail crossing, however, would be a much better idea.


----------



## Guest

Have either ACS-64 612 or 613 entered testing since their arrival in the east?


----------



## PerRock

amtrakwolverine said:


> Nice shot of the idiot going around the gates.


While what is shown is ilegal; I did find it interesting when I took the drivers test in IA that it was legal to cross any railroad crossing regardless of what the lights are showing; but ilegal to drive around the gates. So if your at an ungated lit crossing you are within the law to cross the tracks when the lights & bells are going.

peter


----------



## Fan Railer

Guest said:


> Have either ACS-64 612 or 613 entered testing since their arrival in the east?


610 hasn't even had it's shakedown run yet. Might be this week, but who knows. 609 was 2 weeks ago now.


----------



## Eric S

PerRock said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice shot of the idiot going around the gates.
> 
> 
> 
> While what is shown is ilegal; I did find it interesting when I took the drivers test in IA that it was legal to cross any railroad crossing regardless of what the lights are showing; but ilegal to drive around the gates. So if your at an ungated lit crossing you are within the law to cross the tracks when the lights & bells are going.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

It was my understanding that lights flashing is essentially like a stop sign, while a gate that is down is essentially a red light. I suppose that could vary state to state somewhat.


----------



## neroden

Eric S said:


> It was my understanding that lights flashing is essentially like a stop sign, while a gate that is down is essentially a red light. I suppose that could vary state to state somewhat.


It probably does. In NY when I took the drivers' test, it claimed that it was illegal to drive across a railroad line when the lights are flashing and the bell is ringing.

And if there are *no* lights, you are supposed to stop, look, and listen before crossing.


----------



## edjbox

you could just post the video on the local police's facebook page, they'll see it


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Great place for a police sting. Any driver who swerves around

the lowered bar gets a free blood-alcohol test. Or not free if

he fails the test.

I mean, you don't have to be drunk to cross the tracks ahead of

an onrushing train, but it helps.


----------



## Fan Railer

611 has been "shaken down":


----------



## Agent

NE933 said:


> I would take that video to the local precinct and have them enhance the image of the license plate. That pickup crossed the tracks less than 15 seconds before the train passed. Ought to be charged with attempted manslaugher.





edjbox said:


> you could just post the video on the local police's facebook page, they'll see it


For the record, the local Sheriff's Office (which doesn't have a Facebook page as far as I know) was notified of the video before I posted it here.

Back to the topic at hand, AMTK 615 is on Amtrak #6(25) out of Emeryville. Oddly the report says the Sprinter is behind the Genesis units, not in between them as has been standard until now.

So, as long as nothing goes awry for 615...

Tomorrow: Denver

Saturday: Arrives in Chicago

Sunday: Leaves Chicago

Monday: Arrives in Washington, D.C.


----------



## Acela150

It's possible that early in the week 600 or 601 will journey north on the Shore Line on train 172. Depends on how things go.


----------



## neroden

Woo-hoo. Glad to hear the bugs preventing Boston service may be fixed soon.

Next, the bugs preventing Harrisburg service, and then all is well...


----------



## Acela150

The Push-Pull bugs could take longer then expected according to some "reliable sources" at RR.net. It seems that they're are some severe issues with the Push-Pull function. It seems they had tried running one of the units in Push Mode and the Comms between the Loco and Cab-Car were terrible to the point where it shut down at one point.


----------



## edjbox

I'm a little late here I guess, but I thought the ACS-64s already go all the way to Boston? The first ever ACS-64 in revenue service was from Boston in fact.

Also, what does Amtrak 6(25) mean? I know that's the CZ, but what does the 25 mean?


----------



## MattW

edjbox said:


> I'm a little late here I guess, but I thought the ACS-64s already go all the way to Boston? The first ever ACS-64 in revenue service was from Boston in fact.
> 
> Also, what does Amtrak 6(25) mean? I know that's the CZ, but what does the 25 mean?


It seems they've had problems since then that keep them from regularly traveling up to Boston.

The 25 refers to the origination date of the train. On the western long distance routes, you might have three train 6s running at the same time, so to separate out which train is which, people append the date of origination to them.


----------



## Agent

Here is the video I took yesterday of Amtrak train #6 that left Emeryville on June 25. The ACS-64 was indeed placed behind the Genesis units. I've heard this is the first time the MU cables were correctly wired this time (or something like that). Would that be related to why it isn't sandwiched between the diesels?

http://youtu.be/CbQPyHCT8D4


----------



## Ryan

I would think that the MU cables would have to be right in order for the ACS-64 to sit between the diesels and have the trail unit work.


----------



## neroden

OK, that's two bugs solved (Boston bug, presumably to do with 60 Hz power, and the MU bug). Hopefully solving the MU bug will help solve the push-pull bug.


----------



## Acela150

neroden said:


> OK, that's two bugs solved (Boston bug, presumably to do with 60 Hz power, and the MU bug). Hopefully solving the MU bug will help solve the push-pull bug.


That was part of it. But not all of it.



edjbox said:


> I'm a little late here I guess, but I thought the ACS-64s already go all the way to Boston? The first ever ACS-64 in revenue service was from Boston in fact.
> 
> Also, what does Amtrak 6(25) mean? I know that's the CZ, but what does the 25 mean?


They did go to Boston on the first Revenue run and a few others. But the main issue from reading other forums was ACSES transponder issues.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> They did go to Boston on the first Revenue run and a few others. But the main issue from reading other forums was ACSES transponder issues.


If there are ACSES transponder issues how are they working between New York and Washington? Amtrak does require ACSES to be fully operational for running between New york and Washington too.


----------



## Acela150

Like I said.. Read on Other Forums.. Not my words..

Truth be told I have the same question.


----------



## Acela150

Reports indicate that 601 was leading 174 to BOS out of WAS today.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Guest

Any reports on test runs by 612 or 613?


----------



## engr08

612 is out doing its shakedown run today, saw it in Trenton


----------



## Fan Railer

Passing word along that the next batch of Sprinters is scheduled to be placed into service some time in the next two weeks (607-609, 611-612), and 616 is going to be released from the plant soon. Also 174 operated north to BOS today as an ACS double header. Not sure yet, but still possible it will operate back south as a double header on 173 tomorrow. 610 seems to still be MIA. Anyone have word on that unit?


----------



## jis

I read elsewhere that 611 operated on 184 today.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I read elsewhere that 611 operated on 184 today.


OMG!!! The 611 is at it again!!  Couldn't resist!


----------



## jis

:lol:


----------



## engr08

611 passed me on 129 and the double headers were the 601 and 608


----------



## amtrakwolverine

ACS 616 is scheduled to go out on Fridays 7/11California Zephyr departing Emeryville.


----------



## jis

Looks like we will cross it on our way to Salt Lake City on 5(12) NS and CSX willing 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## afigg

BTW, according to posts on railroad.net, 7 out of the 15 HHP-8s have already been retired. The HHP-8s may be gone before the last of the AEM-7DCs.


----------



## neroden

I was thinking about HHP-8 retirements; they're complicated by (a) the leasing arrangements and (b) the 6 owned by MARC but maintained by Amtrak. This makes it more difficult for Amtrak to completely rid itself of them. Amtrak has no interest in maintaining a small class with bad reliability and few spare parts, but there may be a pile sitting on a dead line as parts for MARC engines for the next couple of years.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Or Amtrak could trade MARC fast flying phalluses for toaster ovens, which are more reliable and less expensive to maintain.


----------



## neroden

If Amtrak and MARC could agree on the terms of the trade.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Listen, Marc, I gotta proposal. We are going to take away those 6 awfully unreliable heaps of junk you use to break down on the Corridor. And then we are going to give you seven vastly more reliable units you can actually use to move trains. Deal?


----------



## afigg

Green Maned Lion said:


> Listen, Marc, I gotta proposal. We are going to take away those 6 awfully unreliable heaps of junk you use to break down on the Corridor. And then we are going to give you seven vastly more reliable units you can actually use to move trains. Deal?


The response from the Maryland Transit Administration will be sorry. not interested, we have placed an order for 10 MPI MPH-36PH diesel locomotives to replace our 10 electric locomotives (4 AEM-7s, 6 HHP-8s). According to a 2013 MARC viewgraph presentation on their then current long range plans, the $40 million contract for 10 diesels is to be completed in 2015. So the HHP-8s are likely to be gone from operational service anywhere on the NEC by mid to late 2015. I think it is a mistake by MARC to go all diesel, but this is an ACS-64 and Amtrak thread, so any lengthy discussions about MARC should really be in the commuter/transit forum.

The only operator that is interested in leasing a few AEM-7ACs is SEPTA, but those AEM-7ACs are apparently only for interim service to keep SEPTA's rush hour bomb trains running until 10 to 12 new electric locomotives can be ordered and delivered. SEPTA put out a request for "Expression of Interest for High-Speed Electric Locomotives" with bids due on July 7. I think the Siemens plant in Sacramento will be kept busy building Charger diesel locomotives and more electrics for SEPTA, along with LRVs for San Francisco Muni and very likely HSR trainsets for CHSRA in few years.


----------



## Acela150

The MTA is also making it clear that they want to switch to all diesels.


----------



## jis

Which MTA?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

I addition to the MdTA's (ill founded, IMO) plan to go all diesel, their AEM-7s are victims of a horribly botched, multi-year refurbishment by Amtrak that left them in such a state that they're not allowed in revenue service except in pairs (and had at least one aborted return to service when more problems popped up). Since one of them (4901) has already been retired, this means there's a single pair and a spare available for service.

No way in heck they're going to fall for a "trust us this time, these meatballs actually work!" from Amtrak, regardless of what state they're in.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> I addition to the MdTA's (ill founded, IMO) plan to go all diesel, their AEM-7s are victims of a horribly botched, multi-year refurbishment by Amtrak that left them in such a state that they're not allowed in revenue service except in pairs (and had at least one aborted return to service when more problems popped up). Since one of them (4901) has already been retired, this means there's a single pair and a spare available for service.
> 
> No way in heck they're going to fall for a "trust us this time, these meatballs actually work!" from Amtrak, regardless of what state they're in.


This much is true. Well said.


----------



## Agent

This video was uploaded this morning of AMTK 616 on the _California Zephyr_ in Ashland, Nebraska:

http://youtu.be/2dAJSA6ZxlI


----------



## afigg

The Amtrak Inspector General issued a report in September, 2013 with their review of the ACS-64 procurement and the management of it. I think this report has been overlooked, as it has multiple nuggets of information on the delivery schedule (as of September 2013), the RRIF loan and what the FRA is willing to allow the loan funds to be spent on, parts contracts for the existing equipment, lease issues driving the retirement order, the OIG recommendations, and so on.

The report: ASSET MANAGEMENT: Amtrak is Preparing to Operate and Maintain New Locomotives, but Several Risks to Fully Achieving Intended Benefits Exist. (2MB 24 page PDF). (The OIG could work on better titles for their reports).

A few excerpts from the OIG report below. Remember this report was issued in September when Amtrak was still testing the first several units and obviously still working out the plans. The scheduled overhauls of the AEM-7s and HHP-8s were dropped from the FY14 budget, but obviously the managers had to wait until they could confirm that the ACS-64s passed the early testing.



> Siemens plans to deliver one locomotive every month starting in July 2013, and up to three locomotives every month from August 2014 through November 2015. The first of these units is scheduled to enter revenue service in October 2013, and all of the 62 electric locomotives that Amtrak currently operates on the Northeast Corridor are scheduled to be replaced by February 2016.





> Amtrak is financing the acquisition of these locomotives with a $563 million loan from the Federal Railroad Administration, which includes funds for facility construction, spare parts, program management, and contingencies. Based on Amtraks projected loan repayment schedule, the company will pay about $787 million for the units over the life of the loan after repaying the principal and interest. Amtrak will also pay credit risk premiums for each loan draw from the FRA.





> Plans to decommission locomotives have been delayed. As the ACS‐64s arrive, Amtrak plans to remove its existing locomotives from service and dispose of them in order to free up space and resources to accommodate the maintenance of the new units. In October 2012, Amtrak established a group that included personnel from the Mechanical, Procurement, and Finance departments to develop a sequence for retiring equipment to maximize cost savings and contain the cost of maintenance, overhauls, and parts procurements during the transition from old to new equipment. Additionally, the group considered the historic and projected reliability of each locomotive, the costs to take each locomotive out of service, and the financial impact of existing leases. *Amtraks locomotive lease contracts require the company to return units to the lessor in operating condition*, and the group prioritized its retirement sequence based on the leased status of units.
> 
> ....
> 
> In the absence of decisions on the decommissioning sequence and disposal options, Amtrak has not finalized a schedule for retiring its current locomotives. Therefore, the company could spend more money than necessary maintaining its locomotive fleet. In particular, Amtrak:
> 
> Has spent or is planning to spend about $21 million for fiscal years 2013 - 2016 to overhaul 36 locomotives that will be decommissioned in this timeframe. Without a retirement schedule, Amtrak risks unnecessarily overhauling locomotives that could be removed from service shortly after the overhaul is completed.
> 
> Extended its spare parts supply agreement for its existing locomotives from June 2013 to June 2018 although it plans to retire all of these locomotives by February 2016. The agreement can be terminated before 2018, but Amtrak will have to pay the suppliers termination costs.
> 
> .....





> Plans to obtain and manage spare parts have been delayed. According to Amtrak officials, as of July 1, 2013, Amtrak had not yet purchased some critical spare parts for the ACS‐64s. As with the shop improvements that Amtrak wants, the company requested about $28 million from FRA to procure spare parts, but FRA officials told us that they had yet to define with Amtrak the expenses that are allowable under their agreement. To obtain spare parts, officials from the Mechanical and Procurement & Material Management departments are analyzing these options:
> 
> Continuing to pursue funding spare parts with the loan from FRA. Amtrak has already ordered initial sets of the long‐lead components to ensure that it had replacement parts on hand if some locomotives are damaged or long‐lead parts fail early in their operation. However, Amtrak has not yet assessed how it will pay for these spares if FRA rejects its funding request.
> 
> Entering into a vendor‐managed inventory arrangement with Siemens similar to the one it has for its existing electric locomotives. These arrangements may result in Amtrak paying Siemens management and storage fees in addition to the cost of spare parts. FRA has said it will not fund this arrangement, and Amtrak has not yet identified how it could fund this option.
> 
> Buying consumable spare parts, as needed, on the open market or from Siemens. This option will limit Amtraks ability to take advantage of reduced prices obtained from advanced purchases and economies of scale achieved through larger orders. Amtrak has not yet decided how it will fund the procurement of parts in this manner.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> The response from the Maryland Transit Administration will be sorry. not interested, we have placed an order for 10 MPI MPH-36PH diesel locomotives to replace our 10 electric locomotives (4 AEM-7s, 6 HHP-8s). According to a 2013 MARC viewgraph presentation on their then current long range plans, the $40 million contract for 10 diesels is to be completed in 2015.


Seriously? When I read that presentation, I thought that was the date for *signing* the contract, not the date when delivery was complete. I had no idea the locomotives were already under construction.
Are you actually sure that's right? MARC signed an extension of the contract with Amtrak to maintain MARC's locomotives for the Penn Line at Amtrak's shops until 2018. Is Amtrak really agreeing to maintain MARC's MPI diesels?



> So the HHP-8s are likely to be gone from operational service anywhere on the NEC by mid to late 2015. I think it is a mistake by MARC to go all diesel,


Doesn't everyone? It's obviously a mistake. Of course, it's not a mistake which will haunt them forever; if they change their mind, MARC can always expand diesel service on the other lines (or sell diesels to startup operators) and buy/lease some electrics later.
But anyway, the interesting point is that MARC's HHP-8s will be out of service by 2015 (or at least 2018, if there's been some misreading of the documents). Horribly, Amtrak may have to buy parts from them in order to repair Amtrak's HHP-8s...

The HHP-8 lease arrangements seem to be the gift that keeps on hurting. (Thomas Downs seems to have made a really bad deal when he was CEO.) Being required to return HHP-8s to Bombardier in operating condition may be completely impossible, given the spare parts shortage and the number which have already broken down. It is perhaps most likely that Bombardier will agree to accept them in less-than-working order or barely-working order, either for a fee or for good will. The sooner Amtrak can get out of these leases the better. The leases may also determine whether the Acelas have an "afterlife" after the Acela IIs arrive, or not; if they're still under lease or Amtrak has bought them by then, Amtrak will probably keep using them, but if the lease is expiring around the right time they'll probably be returned ASAP.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Seriously? When I read that presentation, I thought that was the date for *signing* the contract, not the date when delivery was complete. I had no idea the locomotives were already under construction.
> 
> Are you actually sure that's right? MARC signed an extension of the contract with Amtrak to maintain MARC's locomotives for the Penn Line at Amtrak's shops until 2018. Is Amtrak really agreeing to maintain MARC's MPI diesels?
> 
> ......
> 
> But anyway, the interesting point is that MARC's HHP-8s will be out of service by 2015 (or at least 2018, if there's been some misreading of the documents). Horribly, Amtrak may have to buy parts from them in order to repair Amtrak's HHP-8s...
> 
> The HHP-8 lease arrangements seem to be the gift that keeps on hurting. (Thomas Downs seems to have made a really bad deal when he was CEO.) Being required to return HHP-8s to Bombardier in operating condition may be completely impossible, given the spare parts shortage and the number which have already broken down. It is perhaps most likely that Bombardier will agree to accept them in less-than-working order or barely-working order, either for a fee or for good will. The sooner Amtrak can get out of these leases the better. The leases may also determine whether the Acelas have an "afterlife" after the Acela IIs arrive, or not; if they're still under lease or Amtrak has bought them by then, Amtrak will probably keep using them, but if the lease is expiring around the right time they'll probably be returned ASAP.


Found the MD DOT FY14-19 program outlay documents. The spending for the 10 new MPI diesels are $27M in FY14, $10M in FY15, and then winds down with $5M in FY16, $2M in FY17. MD's fiscal year starts on July 1, so we are already into the state FY15. There is also a note that "HHP locomotive overhaul has been cancelled and replaced by the GP-39 Repower Locomotives project...". If MARC had previously signed a contract extension for their HHP-8s, they canceled it. Bottom line, the MARC HHP-8s may see revenue service into CY 2016, but that is likely to be as long they last.

As for the Amtrak HHP-8s, remember the leases are for only 15 locomotives brought ~15 years ago. Don't know offhand what Amtrak paid for the HHP-8s, but I will guess estimate $4 to $5 million each in circa 2000 dollars. After this many years of payments, the penalty for terminating the lease early may be a couple of million each. Yes, its money that it would be preferred to not have to throw away, but against a $563 million RRIF loan for 70 new locomotives & parts & facilities which will save millions over the years in maintenance, operating costs and be more reliable, any lease penalty payments are part of the cost of the upgrade. 

I think the fate of the HHP-8s is a strong clue as to the fate of the Acelas as the new HSR trainsets enter service. Once enough new HSR trainsets are in revenue service, the Acelas will begin to be either mothballed or retired. They cost too much to maintain to use on anything other than the high value NEC prime service.


----------



## neroden

FWIW, what I've read from people claiming to work at Amtrak is that the HHP-8s are *much* more of a pain to maintain than the Acelas, largely due to far fewer spare parts.


----------



## Acela150

neroden said:


> FWIW, what I've read from people claiming to work at Amtrak is that the HHP-8s are *much* more of a pain to maintain than the Acelas, largely due to far fewer spare parts.


That and keep in mind that their is a dedicated team that maintains the AE sets. HHP's don't have a dedicated team...


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, what I've read from people claiming to work at Amtrak is that the HHP-8s are *much* more of a pain to maintain than the Acelas, largely due to far fewer spare parts.
> 
> 
> 
> That and keep in mind that their is a dedicated team that maintains the AE sets. HHP's don't have a dedicated team...
Click to expand...

In the OIG report on the ACS-64, the maintenance plan for the ACS-64s is mentioned:

"In addition, company officials said that Amtrak plans to institute a maintenance program on the ACS‐64s similar to the program it instituted for the Acela Express service in order to achieve greater reliability among the new locomotives than it currently experiences with the existing electric locomotive fleet. This program is an efficient method for meeting the periodic regulatory requirements for locomotive inspection and maintenance, and Amtrak plans to apply the program to each ACS‐64 as it enters revenue service."

There is more on the maintenance plans in the report, but I think we can look forward to a time when electric engine en-route failures are a rare occurrence for the Regionals, Keystones, and the other Amtrak trains on the NEC. Of course, there will be still catenary & power problems, weather problems, movable bridges getting stuck, traffic congestion, passenger issues, and so on causing delays.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 617 might be getting picked up from the Siemens factory today (www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3474871). AMTK 618 is scheduled to be picked up on July 29.


----------



## Agent

Here is Amtrak #6(26) with AMTK 617 running over four and a half hours late crossing the Des Moines River on Four Mile Bridge four miles northwest of Ottumwa, Iowa.

http://youtu.be/bFMhOg1nncE


----------



## gaspeamtrak

Great catch! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Acela150

618 on the move east as of this morning.


----------



## Agent

I saw AMTK 618 on Amtrak #6(02) today. The train was running nearly three hours late. I caught it meeting a BNSF empty coal train west of Batavia, Iowa.

http://youtu.be/bfGgVSYh40M


----------



## Dutchrailnut

your reporting is flawed agent, unit is 618.


----------



## Agent

Don't know which ACS-64 this is, but I'm sharing this video I found because of the face at the end.

http://youtu.be/lqDknosjEBE


----------



## dmclement

Do the ACS-64 have regular trains that they run on, or is it all a bit random?


----------



## neroden

ACS-64s are not currently running between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, due to problems with push-pull operation which have not been made fully public. They are assigned indiscriminately to other runs between Boston and Washington, apparently just mixed in the pool with the rest.


----------



## dmclement

Fair enough, but not the answer I was hoping for.

I was hoping I could track them down a bit easier than that if they were being introduced on set turns, nut never mind.


----------



## dmclement

At least that gives me a chance at tracking down 950 or 952 on the Harrisburg line


----------



## Acela150

AEM-7 952 regularly runs on Keystone Trains. It's hard to find it on something other then a Keystone set these days.


----------



## Acela150

Agent said:


> Don't know which ACS-64 this is, but I'm sharing this video I found because of the face at the end.
> 
> http://youtu.be/lqDknosjEBE


Of course it's "Rare"...


----------



## William W.

Interesting sight in DC Union Station. If I'm not mistaken, there's an ACS on the CL. I assume it is being moved from Chicago.


----------



## Ryan

Yep.


----------



## William W.




----------



## afigg

William W. said:


> Interesting sight in DC Union Station. If I'm not mistaken, there's an ACS on the CL. I assume it is being moved from Chicago.


When was the photo taken? I would have though #618 would have reached DC earlier this week, but they may have kept it in CHI for a few days.

According to a report on railroad.net, only 6 HHP-8s remain in service. If Siemens is shipping new units every several weeks, the HHP-8s may not be long for active service on Amtrak.


----------



## William W.

Today, about an hour after the arrival of 30. My VRE train happened to be on the opposite track.


----------



## afigg

I don't know what the highest number is for an ACS-64 in operational service is at present, but I was on Regional #152 on Saturday (Aug. 9) from WAS to NYP which was pulled by #614. Has enough miles on it already to have built up a coating of bug splatter on one end. But in summer, I guess 1 NEC trip might be enough to do that.


----------



## William W.

Bug splatter? That's nothing, haha. The VA Service Regional I was on a few days ago had what was left of a fairly large bird stuck to the front of the locomotive.


----------



## JNaismith

Any reports on 612 or 613 in test runs or actually in service? I remember reading about some problems when they were ferried back east.


----------



## Thirdrail7

afigg said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting sight in DC Union Station. If I'm not mistaken, there's an ACS on the CL. I assume it is being moved from Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> When was the photo taken? I would have though #618 would have reached DC earlier this week, but they may have kept it in CHI for a few days.
> 
> According to a report on railroad.net, only 6 HHP-8s remain in service. If Siemens is shipping new units every several weeks, the HHP-8s may not be long for active service on Amtrak.
Click to expand...

As I stated today on the above board, "....and then there were 5." Take your pictures while you can.



JNaismith said:


> Any reports on 612 or 613 in test runs or actually in service? I remember reading about some problems when they were ferried back east.


612 has been in revenue service for at least a few weeks. 613 completed test runs but needs a few mods before it enters service. So far, 7 units are approved for any BOS train (except 66 and 67) service.


----------



## jis

618 was sitting in Wilmington last weekend awaiting a few mods before it goes back to Washington DC to start shakedown runs.


----------



## Fan Railer

616 has been in service rotations for about a week now.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 619 is on Amtrak #6(16), and will be arriving in Chicago later today. It came through Batavia, Iowa running four hours and twenty minutes late.

http://youtu.be/aKky2Oced7c


----------



## dmclement

Thirdrail7 said:


> So far, 7 units are approved for any BOS train (except 66 and 67) service.


Why except 66 and 67?


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> AMTK 619 is on Amtrak #6(16), and will be arriving in Chicago later today. It came through Batavia, Iowa running four hours and twenty minutes late.


Thanks for the update. I did not see any reports about #619 being moved from the Sacramento plant, which says that we have reached the point where shipments of new ACS-64s are routine.
Still, when #619 gets to the NEC, it will be a bit of a milestone as the 20th unit shipped. The official plan a few years ago was to order 20 new electric locomotives to replace the AEM-7DC units. The plan changed to order 70 units to replace the entire electric locomotive fleet, so the delivery of the 20th unit matches the earlier plan order size. As it turns out, the HHP-8s may go to storage first.


----------



## jis

A more accurate statement would be that HHP-8s are going first and will be gone way before the AEM-7s, perhaps even the DCs!


----------



## William W.

Do the HHP-8s still break down constantly? I see them used quite a bit on MARC, so they can't be that bad. I'd imagine that MARC would take the opportunity to snap up the retired HHP-8s to replace their AEM-7s.


----------



## Acela150

William W. said:


> Do the HHP-8s still break down constantly?


Be honest... What do you think the answer to that question is?


----------



## Ryan

No, MARC wants absolutely nothing to do with them.

They're even more awful in start-stop commuter service.

They're so bad (and the AEM-7 rebuild was such a disaster), that MARC has no plans to purchase electric locomotives and plans on retiring all of the electrics and running an all diesel fleet.


----------



## William W.

Really? That's interesting. Seems like a waste to me, to not use perfectly good catenary. Then again, the next time a bunch of catenary gets ripped down, it's smooth sailing for MARC.


----------



## Acela150

William W. said:


> Really? That's interesting. Seems like a waste to me, to not use perfectly good catenary. Then again, the next time a bunch of catenary gets ripped down, it's smooth sailing for MARC.


Amtrak charges a hefty fee for Non-Amtrak RR's to use their power AFAIK. That combined with as Ryan said the poor rebuild program for the AEM-7's that Amtrak performed it's more cost effective for MARC to use diesels.


----------



## Ryan

I agree that it's a waste, but I can't blame them given the utter crap they've had for electric motors.


----------



## William W.

That's too bad. No one likes unnecessary diesel exhaust, haha.


----------



## afigg

William W. said:


> That's too bad. No one likes unnecessary diesel exhaust, haha.


Someone should search this thread and count the number of times the subject of MARC dumping the HHP-8s and switching to an all diesel fleet has come up.  As for MTA* and MARC's decision, IMO, in a few years, maybe 5 or even 10, whoever is making decisions then will rethink the decision to buy 10 MPI diesels over getting new electric locomotives because of increased diesel fuel costs, slower acceleration with the diesels, and air quality. But MTA placed the order for the MPI diesels, so it is a done deal.

The bottom line is the HHP-8s may be gone from Amtrak and MARC revenue service sooner than many expected when the first ACS-64 units were shipped east.

* MTA in this context means Maryland Transit Administration, not the other much bigger MTA.


----------



## Thirdrail7

dmclement said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So far, 7 units are approved for any BOS train (except 66 and 67) service.
> 
> 
> 
> Why except 66 and 67?
Click to expand...

They avoid it as a precautionary. You don't have much support during the hours these trains operate. This is not uncommon. When the HHPs were unproven, you had to avoid using them on 66,67,190 and 195/95. Of course, if it is the only game in town (like a few days ago when they slapped the 616 on 67) you cross your fingers and go for it.



William W. said:


> Do the HHP-8s still break down constantly? I see them used quite a bit on MARC, so they can't be that bad. I'd imagine that MARC would take the opportunity to snap up the retired HHP-8s to replace their AEM-7s.


Their failure rate is slightly higher than other units but their loss of time unit is significantly higher. The HHP-8s weren't as bad as people made them out to be. They were actually too good for their territory. History may repeat itself with these new units. This summer is almost over, but there were a few stretches of hot weather and the ACSs didn't behave a whole heck of a lot better than the HHP-8s...and they are new.

It will be interesting to see what will happen after a few years of ice storms, fine snowfalls and a prolonged heatwave.

Will they rise up like the AEM-7s or fall victim like the HHP-8s?


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Their failure rate is slightly higher than other units but their loss of time unit is significantly higher. The HHP-8s weren't as bad as people made them out to be.


One of the lessons of the HHP-8s -- not a new lesson -- is that small classes of equipment are a bad idea. With a large class of HHP-8s, I could imagine all the bugs being worked out, the biggest problems being retrofitted, and stockpiles of spare parts. With a small class, there certainly weren't stockpiles of spare parts, and it was hardly worth retrofitting such a small class in any way...


----------



## Agent

AMTK 620 is reported to be going east on Amtrak #6(30): www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3508413.


----------



## Agent

Here's Amtrak #6(30) earlier today at Ottumwa, Iowa with the newest ACS-64:

http://youtu.be/hfxUhlmVXng


----------



## Barciur

Any news/leaks about when will Keystone service get its ACS on revenue service?


----------



## Acela150

Agent said:


> Here's Amtrak #6(30) earlier today at Ottumwa, Iowa with the newest ACS-64:
> 
> http://youtu.be/hfxUhlmVXng


Nice video! Seems the engineer likes to make noise... 



Barciur said:


> Any news/leaks about when will Keystone service get its ACS on revenue service?


No. It has to do with compatibility with the cab cars, IINM.


----------



## afigg

According to a post on trainorders, #620 will be heading east today on the Capitol Limited #30 (9/02).


----------



## BrianPR3

Have they figured out 610 yet?


----------



## Thirdrail7

BrianPR3 said:


> Have they figured out 610 yet?


There is nothing to figure out. It is a known and programmed maneuver. Hopefully it will be online at the end of the month.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Their failure rate is slightly higher than other units but their loss of time unit is significantly higher. The HHP-8s weren't as bad as people made them out to be.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the lessons of the HHP-8s -- not a new lesson -- is that small classes of equipment are a bad idea. With a large class of HHP-8s, I could imagine all the bugs being worked out, the biggest problems being retrofitted, and stockpiles of spare parts. With a small class, there certainly weren't stockpiles of spare parts, and it was hardly worth retrofitting such a small class in any way...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'd say they were a small class of equipment. You forget they share a great deal of components with their high speed cousins. You're actually talking about 55 power units...and that doesn't include MARC.


----------



## BrianPR3

Thirdrail7 said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they figured out 610 yet?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing to figure out. It is a known and programmed maneuver. Hopefully it will be online at the end of the month.
Click to expand...

Thank god! it's been a while since we heard anything about it


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> I'm not sure I'd say they were a small class of equipment. You forget they share a great deal of components with their high speed cousins. You're actually talking about 55 power units...and that doesn't include MARC.


Mmm. I've heard differing opinions as to how many parts the HHP-8s actually share with the Acelas. Including statements by some people claiming to be in the maintenance department, that even parts which you'd expect to be identical have little fiddly differences and can't be swapped one-for-one.


----------



## Thirdrail7

BrianPR3 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they figured out 610 yet?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing to figure out. It is a known and programmed maneuver. Hopefully it will be online at the end of the month.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank god! it's been a while since we heard anything about it
Click to expand...

I don't know if you are familiar with Star Trek , but even if you aren't you should be able to read in between the lines here, ok? The 610 followed the Spock creed: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one."



neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I'd say they were a small class of equipment. You forget they share a great deal of components with their high speed cousins. You're actually talking about 55 power units...and that doesn't include MARC.
> 
> 
> 
> Mmm. I've heard differing opinions as to how many parts the HHP-8s actually share with the Acelas. Including statements by some people claiming to be in the maintenance department, that even parts which you'd expect to be identical have little fiddly differences and can't be swapped one-for-one.
Click to expand...

This is true. However, there are enough parts and by that I mean "big items" that are interchangeable with minor to no modifications. Withour diverting too much from the topic, remember the trouble Amtrak had with Acela sets this winter? It was a few HHP-8s that enabled the Acela sets to return to service by following the Spock creed: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one."

I hope this is clear enough for everyone.


----------



## neroden

Aha.  Thanks. Sounds like maybe there weren't as many Acela spare parts as there should have been either....

....this leads me to think that maybe the HHP-8s are going to stay on the property for quite a long time after their "retirement". Maybe until the Acelas are retired.

...also, if the HHP-8 leases require returning the HHP-8s in working condition, Amtrak may *need* to buy out those leases.

Am I reading you right?


----------



## jis

I wonder about the big items comment. It seems to me that many big items as in electric motors and drive electronics cannot be shared between the HHP-8s and Acela power heads because of the inherent significant difference in power ratings and also size. Am I incorrect in surmising that Acela power heads and HHP-8s share neither the motors nor the trucks, or at least significant set of parts in the trucks, and the drive electronics, and the main transformer/rectifier packs?


----------



## BrianPR3

Thirdrail7 said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they figured out 610 yet?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing to figure out. It is a known and programmed maneuver. Hopefully it will be online at the end of the month.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank god! it's been a while since we heard anything about it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know if you are familiar with Star Trek , but even if you aren't you should be able to read in between the lines here, ok? The 610 followed the Spock creed: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one."
Click to expand...

lol im not a star trek fan, also i only asked cause someone said 610 was being cannibalized for parts till Siemens provided parts


----------



## Acela150

BrianPR3 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they figured out 610 yet?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing to figure out. It is a known and programmed maneuver. Hopefully it will be online at the end of the month.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank god! it's been a while since we heard anything about it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know if you are familiar with Star Trek , but even if you aren't you should be able to read in between the lines here, ok? The 610 followed the Spock creed: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> lol im not a star trek fan, also i only asked cause someone said 610 was being cannibalized for parts till Siemens provided parts
Click to expand...

Why in the world would something BRAND SPANKIN' NEW be cannibalized for parts??


----------



## BrianPR3

Acela150 said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they figured out 610 yet?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing to figure out. It is a known and programmed maneuver. Hopefully it will be online at the end of the month.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank god! it's been a while since we heard anything about it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know if you are familiar with Star Trek , but even if you aren't you should be able to read in between the lines here, ok? The 610 followed the Spock creed: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few....or the one."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> lol im not a star trek fan, also i only asked cause someone said 610 was being cannibalized for parts till Siemens provided parts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why in the world would something BRAND SPANKIN' NEW be cannibalized for parts??
Click to expand...

that's what i would like to know too!

read this post and that's where they came about with 610

https://www.facebook.com/groups/7860063780/permalink/10152714318383781/


----------



## Acela150

Considering I happen to know he's an Amtrak Engineer I'm tempted to believe it. But it still doesn't make much sense.


----------



## Ryan

Makes perfect sense to me, the supply of spare parts can't be fully populated yet (nor should it be).

One locomotive in the shop is better than several.


----------



## neroden

Very likely Siemens is planning to manufacture the spare parts last. There would be spare parts for some things which are supplied by subcontractors where a stock is kept at the Siemens factory, but probably not for everything.


----------



## Agent

Acela150 said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's Amtrak #6(30) earlier today at Ottumwa, Iowa with the newest ACS-64:
> 
> http://youtu.be/hfxUhlmVXng
> 
> 
> 
> Nice video! Seems the engineer likes to make noise...
Click to expand...

Thank you. He's actually quiet compared to videos I've seen of another engineer that makes this run.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> Makes perfect sense to me, the supply of spare parts can't be fully populated yet (nor should it be).
> 
> One locomotive in the shop is better than several.


I can agree that not having a large supply of spare parts could constitute using one unit for spare parts. It does make one wonder how many spare parts are being used though...


----------



## afigg

According to trainorders, #621 was on CZ #6 leaving Emeryville today (9/05).

Hopefully it is not being sent east to be cannibalized for spare parts until Siemmens catches up on spare parts inventory.


----------



## Orie

Some pictures I came across on a Facebook group I'm a member of, I thought people here would appreciate them. NOTE: Not my photographs, all credit goes to Lil'Marcus Idell (Facebook). Units 602, 604, 606, 611 and 616 at Trenton station.


----------



## ronkstevens

Acela150 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Makes perfect sense to me, the supply of spare parts can't be fully populated yet (nor should it be).
> 
> One locomotive in the shop is better than several.
> 
> 
> 
> I can agree that not having a large supply of spare parts could constitute using one unit for spare parts. It does make one wonder how many spare parts are being used though...
Click to expand...

I would doubt that it is any kind of mass cannibalization, like what could happen with some of the retired AEM7's and HHP8s to keep some units running.

It's a common issue in manufacturing. The new parts are headed right to the assembly line to manufacture the new completed products, so there isn't any kind of inventory built up for spare parts yet. It makes sense to take a required part from an OOS unit to keep another unit in service, (instead of having two OOS units) especially if it would be a lengthy delay in getting the part from the manufacturer. There is also an additional benefit: Amtrak mechanics get additional training time/practice in working on the unit


----------



## Agent

Here's Amtrak #6(05) with the newest parts donor Cities Sprinter near Chillicothe, Iowa this morning.




So, does anyone know what parts are breaking on these brand new units that require replacing?


----------



## jis

Agent said:


> So, does anyone know what parts are breaking on these brand new units that require replacing?


The "flux capacitor". Just could not help it


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, does anyone know what parts are breaking on these brand new units that require replacing?
> 
> 
> 
> The "flux capacitor". Just could not help it
Click to expand...


----------



## trainman74

jis said:


> The "flux capacitor".


At last, a solution for Amtrak's on-time problems!


----------



## GG-1

jis said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, does anyone know what parts are breaking on these brand new units that require replacing?
> 
> 
> 
> The "flux capacitor". Just could not help it
Click to expand...

SHOCKING!!! :lol:

Aloha


----------



## Thirdrail7

Agent said:


> So, does anyone know what parts are breaking on these brand new units that require replacing?



It varies from unit to unit. There isn't consistent problem that shows up on multiple units.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> I wonder about the big items comment. It seems to me that many big items as in electric motors and drive electronics cannot be shared between the HHP-8s and Acela power heads because of the inherent significant difference in power ratings and also size. Am I incorrect in surmising that Acela power heads and HHP-8s share neither the motors nor the trucks, or at least significant set of parts in the trucks, and the drive electronics, and the main transformer/rectifier packs?


You are correct about the traction motor size difference and truck difference. There is also a brake difference. However, their are still plenty of components such as (the extremely expensive) power modules, speed control systems, safety systems that can go in as is or after a software flash.


----------



## afigg

There were 2 videos posted to youtube on September 12 of the #619 test train with the rebuilt Amfleet #10005 catenary inspection car and the #10004 Viewliner Theater car in tow. One video poster was excited about the #10005, the other about the #10004 Theater car. Guess test runs of new ACS-64s are now old hat.

at Cos Cob: Amtrak Test Xtra 619 w/ AMTK 10005 (New Catenary Inspection Car)

at Stamford: Amtrak Test Xtra @ Stamford with Viewliner Inspection Car!!


----------



## Acela150

Ask me it's about flippin' time 10005 got out and about!


----------



## Thirdrail7

BrianPR3 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they figured out 610 yet?
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing to figure out. It is a known and programmed maneuver. Hopefully it will be online at the end of the month.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank god! it's been a while since we heard anything about it
Click to expand...

Ok slugger, have your camera out tomorrow. It is time for a shakedown. 620 follows on Thursday.


----------



## Acela150

Finally got to ride behind a Brat this afternoon. 604 had the guilty pleasure of pulling this guy back home today. When the guy on the head end started blowing for the shoreline crossings I was a sleep. Needless to say I pretty much jumped out of my sleep and seat when I heard the horn for the first time. No joke..


----------



## afigg

According to a post on trainorders, #622 is making its way east on CZ #6 (9/23). So it should get to CHI on Thursday, but how many hours late remains to be seen.


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> but how many hours late remains to be seen.


ZINGGGGGGG!


----------



## Agent

A person in Colorado caught AMTK 622 on the _California Zephyr_ in Winter Park today. Looks like now is the time to ride the _Zephyr_ to see fall colors in the Rockies.


----------



## Agent

I was able to catch AMTK 622 on the _California Zephyr_ a few times in southeast Iowa today. Train #6(23) was running over three and half hours late today. Also the sightseer lounge was replaced with a diner-lounge for this train.

Dudley, Iowa:


----------



## William W.

ACS 621 parked in DC Union Station, attached to several Amfleets.

The number is hard to make out from the photo (apologies).


----------



## amtrakwolverine

Soon we will have a thread called AEM-7 heads up as they become rarer to find.


----------



## Acela150

610 and 602 headed north to NYP this morning..


----------



## neroden

Apparently there are only three HHP-8s left in active service on Amtrak. I'm kind of wondering when the last one is gonna go.


----------



## engr08

621 looks like it might be doing a test with that kinda line up


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Apparently there are only three HHP-8s left in active service on Amtrak. I'm kind of wondering when the last one is gonna go.


According to GenePoon on trainorders, there is now only one HHP-8, #651, listed in the database as on the active roster. The issue that was discussed a while back of what Amtrak would do when ACS-64 delivered unit numbers reached #650 appears to be moot as the HHP-8s will all be in dead storage by then.


----------



## afigg

Railway Age report on Siemens starting a 15 year technical support contract: ACS-64 technical support agreement under way. I wonder if this means there has been a transition from product debug and test phase to a revenue service operational support and deployment phase. Excerpt:



> The Siemens Infrastructure & Cities Sector, Rail Systems Division has begun its 15-year technical support and spare parts supply agreement with Amtrak for the new ACS-64 electric locomotives in operation on the Northeast Corridor. The first of 70 units entered revenue service in February 2014.
> 
> As part of this agreement, Siemens technicians will be on-site at four locations (Boston, New York, Wilmington, Del., and Washington, D.C.) to provide technical expertise, spare parts and engineering support. These technicians will be utilizing Siemens remote monitoring, which analyzes data sent wirelessly from each locomotive and enables proactive condition-based maintenance.


----------



## engr08

Wow we saw the 655 being towed somewhere, maybe that was the of.it


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently there are only three HHP-8s left in active service on Amtrak. I'm kind of wondering when the last one is gonna go.
> 
> 
> 
> According to GenePoon on trainorders, there is now only one HHP-8, #651, listed in the database as on the active roster. The issue that was discussed a while back of what Amtrak would do when ACS-64 delivered unit numbers reached #650 appears to be moot as the HHP-8s will all be in dead storage by then.
Click to expand...

GenePoon is not a reliable source, but since there were only three a few days ago (651, 654, 655) I wouldn't be surprised if he's right.


----------



## sitzplatz17

This is probably old news, but I did see ACS-64 #618 pulling a silver service train out of WAS this morning. Looked really nice!


----------



## Ryan

An ACS-64 numbered #318 would be news! 

(I assume it was 618?)


----------



## sitzplatz17

Yes! thank you, sorry about that. (this is what happens when you try and do work and peruse forums at the same time... maybe i should go back and double check that spreadsheet i was working on then!!)


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(04) has ACS-64 623 on it today. It came through Agency, Iowa just over four hours late. This one surprised me, but there was a heads-up on Trainorders that I'm sorry that I missed.


----------



## Agent

I've been informed by a person in Colorado that they saw the an ACS-64 on the _California Zephyr_ today. This would be Amtrak #6(05). If true, I think this would be the first time of having ACS-64s two days in a row.


----------



## neroden

They'll be sitting in Chicago for a while thanks to the mess further east.


----------



## Agent

#6(05) does have AMTK 624 on it. It was just over three hours late through Agency, Iowa. But it is also missing its baggage car and still missing the sightseer lounge (diner-lounge is still substituting).


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> #6(05) does have AMTK 624 on it. It was just over three hours late through Agency, Iowa. But it is also missing its baggage car and still missing the sightseer lounge (diner-lounge is still substituting).


So are #623 and #624 going to sit there at Chicago with no CL available for the move east (for now) or would Amtrak put them on the Cardinal? Which would lead to a rare opportunity for photos or videos.


----------



## Blackwolf

afigg said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> #6(05) does have AMTK 624 on it. It was just over three hours late through Agency, Iowa. But it is also missing its baggage car and still missing the sightseer lounge (diner-lounge is still substituting).
> 
> 
> 
> So are #623 and #624 going to sit there at Chicago with no CL available for the move east (for now) or would Amtrak put them on the Cardinal? Which would lead to a rare opportunity for photos or videos.
Click to expand...

I imagine the Cardinal being a likely candidate for shipping the two electrics east. Since the Cardinal now has two sleepers, is it running with only one P-42 still or does it have a pair? If both electrics are ready and a second P-42 is available, I say sandwiching the two ACS's in between and high-balling to WAS is in order via the Cardinal!


----------



## e-unit

623 was on last night's cardinal.


----------



## hastybob

624 still in Chicago. It was a day behind the 623. We will see which was it goes to WAS.


----------



## City of Miami

623 just went through cvs on #50


----------



## Mattie

I videoed the Cardinal with ACs-64 923


----------



## jis

923? Not 623?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Acela150

923 is an AEM-7AC.. A AEM-7 that has a tendency to stalk me..


----------



## afigg

I saw #624 on Saturday morning sitting in the Ivy City yard pulling out of WAS. Must have arrived on the #50(10/09) Cardinal on Friday night. So there are now 25 ACS-64s on the east coast.


----------



## afigg

#608 was used in revenue service on Keystone 605 on Monday, so they are now cleared for Keystone push-pull service. Amtrak issued a press release about it, I assume so they and PennDOT could get positive publicity for the Keystones: New Locomotives Herald New Era for Keystone Service. Excerpt:



> PHILADELPHIA Passengers on todays Train 605 from Philadelphia to Harrisburg were aboard the first Keystone Service train in revenue operation to be powered by the modern and reliable Amtrak Cities Sprinter (ACS-64) electric locomotive.
> 
> Use of the high-tech locomotives is the latest step forward in the long-standing partnership between Amtrak and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania which share the revenue as well as operating and equipment maintenance costs of the Keystone Service.


 BTW, the Keystone service had 94% on-time performance in September, so it has become one of Amtrak's most reliable services.


----------



## amtkstn

The good on time performance is help by Amtrak owning the track.


----------



## neroden

amtkstn said:


> The good on time performance is help by Amtrak owning the track.


Yes, it certainly is. The fact that there are no grade crossings helps a lot too.


----------



## Fan Railer

I found this railfan photoshop on Facebook page; what do you guys think? Credits to the original photographer:


----------



## Acela150

I think someone has to much time on their hands..


----------



## Ryan

I think it looks awesome, I'd love to see Amtrak do that to a motor or two.


----------



## jis

RyanS said:


> I think it looks awesome, I'd love to see Amtrak do that to a motor or two.


Brian, are you reading/listening?


----------



## PerRock

I prefer this one:







peter

(PS yes I know it's an ES64, not an ACS-64. But we don't have one for Trainz yet & the ES64 is really the same thing with some small changes)


----------



## Ryan

That's pretty good as well.

The same guy then went to work on some commuter ideas. I'd LOVE to see MARC to get in on the action:


----------



## Ryan

Really, just go join the Facebook group and see 'em all. They're awesome:


----------



## CHamilton

Wait, when did MARC start using Amcans?


----------



## afigg

RyanS said:


> Really, just go join the Facebook group and see 'em all. They're awesome:


All this photoshopping effort and no ACS-64s in possible SEPTA livery? At this point, MARC is very unlikely to purchase any ACS-64s. However SEPTA is seeking to buy new electric locomotives, so there may be SEPTA ACS-64s in a few years.


----------



## jis

MBTA might get into the market for some electric equipment too. But they of course might get it from CNR too.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 625 is reported to be on Amtrak #6(28): www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3561635.


----------



## Fan Railer

afigg said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really, just go join the Facebook group and see 'em all. They're awesome:
> 
> 
> 
> All this photoshopping effort and no ACS-64s in possible SEPTA livery? At this point, MARC is very unlikely to purchase any ACS-64s. However SEPTA is seeking to buy new electric locomotives, so there may be SEPTA ACS-64s in a few years.
Click to expand...

Nah, there's definitely a SEPTA photoshop:








jis said:


> MBTA might get into the market for some electric equipment too. But they of course might get it from CNR too.


I thought there was a huge discussion about how the MBTA wasn't going to electrify just for one/two lines, unless I missed something since then.


----------



## jis

They got the EIS for the new line approved based on electrified service to get to their pollution reduction numbers. So we will see what happens. If they actually proceed that way then it will be silly not to deply electrics on the NEC too. OTOH, if they go back on their pollution reduction promises, which they could, then all bets are off.


----------



## cirdan

I'd love to see one in Pennsy Tuscan red.


----------



## Agent

Meanwhile in reality, AMTK 625 was filmed yesterday in Colorado.


----------



## Ziv

Man. I really want to move back to Montana now. 

Yeah, I know that was in Colorado, but it looks like home.


----------



## Ryan

cirdan said:


> I'd love to see one in Pennsy Tuscan red.


He's working on them.  
Join the NEC Railfans group for all the fun.


----------



## sitzplatz17

Saw 602 and 606 pass each other this morning outside Union Station from the DC Metro Red Line. Almost every time I look out of the window on that stretch of my commute I see one of the ACS-64s now.

I have to say I really like them, especially those LED headlights. Can tell it's one of them from pretty far away!


----------



## Agent

And here's a look at the other side of #6(28) in Chillicothe, Iowa this morning. The train was running just under fifty minutes late. #6 has been making decent time across Iowa lately (knock on wood). Hopefully BNSF can keep it up through the holiday travel season.


----------



## keelhauled

jis said:


> They got the EIS for the new line approved based on electrified service to get to their pollution reduction numbers. So we will see what happens. If they actually proceed that way then it will be silly not to deply electrics on the NEC too. OTOH, if they go back on their pollution reduction promises, which they could, then all bets are off.


I fully expect them to cut the electrification as a compromise to lower the price tag. For a grand total of 20 round trips a day on a single track line electrification makes no sense.


----------



## Thirdrail7

sitzplatz17 said:


> Saw 602 and 606 pass each other this morning outside Union Station from the DC Metro Red Line. Almost every time I look out of the window on that stretch of my commute I see one of the ACS-64s now.


This is a telling statement. Now that they have entered the Keystone pool, seeing an ACS is no longer a rarity. Seeing the two remaining Amtrak HHP-8s in operation is a rarity. The DCs are also starting to feel the pinch as two more were set aside for storage.

Take your pictures while you can.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> They got the EIS for the new line approved based on electrified service to get to their pollution reduction numbers. So we will see what happens. If they actually proceed that way then it will be silly not to deply electrics on the NEC too. OTOH, if they go back on their pollution reduction promises, which they could, then all bets are off.


MBTA/MassDOT have attempted to renege on pollution reduction promises repeatedly since the Big Dig. However, the result of this is that all the environmental watchdog organizations are watching them and ready to pounce, so it may be harder for them to do that at this point.

Another possibility is a "swap" -- replace planned electrification on this line with electrification on other busier lines, for a net reduction in pollution. They could probably get away with that as long as they actually *did* the electrification on the other lines.


----------



## sitzplatz17

Thirdrail7 said:


> sitzplatz17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 602 and 606 pass each other this morning outside Union Station from the DC Metro Red Line. Almost every time I look out of the window on that stretch of my commute I see one of the ACS-64s now.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a telling statement. Now that they have entered the Keystone pool, seeing an ACS is no longer a rarity. Seeing the two remaining Amtrak HHP-8s in operation is a rarity. The DCs are also starting to feel the pinch as two more were set aside for storage.
> 
> Take your pictures while you can.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen an HHP-8 in awhile now. i think the last one i saw from the Metro was in MARC colors.


----------



## keelhauled

sitzplatz17 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sitzplatz17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 602 and 606 pass each other this morning outside Union Station from the DC Metro Red Line. Almost every time I look out of the window on that stretch of my commute I see one of the ACS-64s now.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a telling statement. Now that they have entered the Keystone pool, seeing an ACS is no longer a rarity. Seeing the two remaining Amtrak HHP-8s in operation is a rarity. The DCs are also starting to feel the pinch as two more were set aside for storage.
> 
> Take your pictures while you can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I haven't seen an HHP-8 in awhile now. i think the last one i saw from the Metro was in MARC colors.
Click to expand...

I saw one in Sunnyside yard a few days ago. Looked to be on a long distance train, though it was pitch dark outside, hard to be sure. Considering how often I make my way down to the NEC, it may well be the last one I ever see.


----------



## afigg

There is a post at trainorders that states that the 2 remaining Amtrak HHP-8s have made their last revenue runs and will be "put to sleep" at Wilmington. #655 is being shop moved from NYC to Wilmington tonight and #651 will be moved from DC to Wilmington on early Monday morning. So, say goodbye to the hippos. How much longer MARC will keep running their HHP-8s, don't know.


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> There is a post at trainorders that states that the 2 remaining Amtrak HHP-8s have made their last revenue runs and will be "put to sleep" at Wilmington. #655 is being shop moved from NYC to Wilmington tonight and #651 will be moved from DC to Wilmington on early Monday morning. So, say goodbye to the hippos. How much longer MARC will keep running their HHP-8s, don't know.


Aren't they basically Acela power units on the inside?

So I guess they will be highly sought after for spares?


----------



## MikefromCrete

cirdan said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a post at trainorders that states that the 2 remaining Amtrak HHP-8s have made their last revenue runs and will be "put to sleep" at Wilmington. #655 is being shop moved from NYC to Wilmington tonight and #651 will be moved from DC to Wilmington on early Monday morning. So, say goodbye to the hippos. How much longer MARC will keep running their HHP-8s, don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't they basically Acela power units on the inside?
> 
> So I guess they will be highly sought after for spares?
Click to expand...

Amtrak doesn't own them, Bombardier does. I imagine Bombardier wants them back in one piece.


----------



## afigg

MikefromCrete said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't they basically Acela power units on the inside?
> 
> So I guess they will be highly sought after for spares?
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak doesn't own them, Bombardier does. I imagine Bombardier wants them back in one piece.
Click to expand...

It has been reported that the HHP-8s have to be returned to the lease holder in working order. Which is a understandable clause in the lease. Since Amtrak is obviously not going to exercise the buy-out options on the HHP-8 leases, the need to keep the HHP-8s in at least nominal working order may have accelerated their retirement. Not a good use of limited financial resources to blow out an expensive part on an HHP-8, then have to replace it so the HHP-8 can run under its own power to satisfy the terms of the lease, then retire the HHP-8 shortly afterwards with the locomotive returned to the leasing company, and likely eventually sold for scrap value.
The Early Buy-Out Options of the leases for the Acelas and HHP-8s start to come up in late 2016, with a bunch in the summer of 2017. Don't see why Amtrak would exercise any of them. The Acelas may face the same fate: be sequentially retired as enough new HSR trainsets enter service so they can be returned to the lease holder in lieu of a buy-out to terminate the leases.


----------



## jis

I am almost certain that Bombardier would be quite amenable to a suitable lease extension instead of the buyout. It is not like there are other customers breaking down their doors to get their hands on any of these.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I am almost certain that Bombardier would be quite amenable to a suitable lease extension instead of the buyout. It is not like there are other customers breaking down their doors to get their hands on any of these.


LOL! Well put Jishnu! I don't even know who else would want them..


----------



## Agent

AMTK 600 has been named _David L. Gunn_ after the former Amtrak president: http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2014/11/new-Amtrak-locomotive-honors-past-president (You have to be a subscriber to read the full article, but non-subscribers can still see a photo of the newly-named 600).


----------



## Paulus

Isn't that the one that caught on fire?


----------



## jis

Paulus said:


> Isn't that the one that caught on fire?


Yes. A fire at the HV Circuit Breaker apparently, though it did cause some damage around it requiring some work to fix it. I suppose this gave the opportunity to put the new name decal on it


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> The Early Buy-Out Options of the leases for the Acelas and HHP-8s start to come up in late 2016, with a bunch in the summer of 2017.


Most of these appear to actually be lease expirations rather than EBOs.



> Don't see why Amtrak would exercise any of them.


Amtrak may have to extend the Acela leases as an alternative, due to inability to get Acela IIs in service quick enough. If Bombardier really refuses to cooperate on lease extensions (unlikely), then Amtrak might have to do the buyouts. :-(


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Early Buy-Out Options of the leases for the Acelas and HHP-8s start to come up in late 2016, with a bunch in the summer of 2017.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of these appear to actually be lease expirations rather than EBOs.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't see why Amtrak would exercise any of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak may have to extend the Acela leases as an alternative, due to inability to get Acela IIs in service quick enough. If Bombardier really refuses to cooperate on lease extensions (unlikely), then Amtrak might have to do the buyouts. :-(
Click to expand...

No, the FY13 Five Year plan lists the trust closings for the HHP-8s and HS Trainsets in the "Early Buyout Equipment Purchase Options" table. Presumably they were brought with 20 or 25 year leases, so early buy-out options opening 16 or 17 years into the leases makes sense. The only equipment in the end of lease equipment purchase table are 21 AEM-7 rebuilds in FY16 and FY17. What Amtrak does with the AEM-7AC leases, no idea. 
However this thread is about the ACS-64; discussion of the fate of the HHP-8s and AEM-7s is close enough to the topic. But Acela lease and fate discussions? Not really on-topic. Better to keep that in a Next Gen HSR or an Acela thread if we are going to discuss it at length.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that the one that caught on fire?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. A fire at the HV Circuit Breaker apparently, though it did cause some damage around it requiring some work to fix it. I suppose this gave the opportunity to put the new name decal on it
Click to expand...

IINM that decal was put on about 2 or 3 weeks ago.. But it could have been longer. Time is going by so quick here it's hard to keep track.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> No, the FY13 Five Year plan lists the trust closings for the HHP-8s and HS Trainsets in the "Early Buyout Equipment Purchase Options" table. Presumably they were brought with 20 or 25 year leases, so early buy-out options opening 16 or 17 years into the leases makes sense. The only equipment in the end of lease equipment purchase table are 21 AEM-7 rebuilds in FY16 and FY17. What Amtrak does with the AEM-7AC leases, no idea.


Ah, a misreading on my part (I was working from one of the other documents which didn't break them out as clearly and had somewhat vague verbiage).  Thank you.


----------



## afigg

It has been a while since there was news about an ACS-64 delivery. According to trainorders, #626 is heading east on the CZ #6 (12/06?). #627 is on CZ #6(12/07).


----------



## 64

afigg said:


> It has been a while since there was news about an ACS-64 delivery. According to trainorders, #626 is heading east on the CZ #6 (12/06?). #627 is on CZ #6(12/07).


627 on 6(5)

626 on 6(6)


----------



## Acela150

The last one made its way east in late October.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(06) at Dudley, Iowa this morning with AMTK 626. The leader, AMTK 117, has a darker shade of blue on its nose.

http://youtu.be/hJCwfnuXuew


----------



## afigg

#627 has made its way east. Saw it parked in the Ivy City yard at WAS this afternoon.


----------



## Agent

Everyone on the east coast is excited for the new baggage cars, and I'm just watching another ACS-64 go by. AMTK 629 passed through Ottumwa, Iowa on Amtrak #6(18). So, 627 went east the day before 626, but I don't know where 628 is.


----------



## 64

Agent said:


> 628 is.


still at the plant.


----------



## afigg

SEPTA has posted a RFP to purchase 13 electric locomotives plus an option for up to 5 more. The Siemens ACS-64 or a reconfigured variant is an obvious candidate, but 13 + 5 locomotives is presumably a large enough order that Bombardier might bid as well. However, odds have to be good that the Amtrak ACS-64s will have sister units operating on SEPTA in a few years. SEPTA currently has 8 electrics, so 13 is an expansion of their locomotive fleet.

SEPTA's public announcement of the RFP although it is very terse. There are no specifics or attached documents, those are likely available on request only to qualified bidders.



> The Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA) is soliciting proposals for the purchase of a Base Order of 13 High Speed Electric Locomotives with Mandatory Options up to five (5) additional Locomotives.
> 
> Deadline for Proposals: February 13, 2015 at 4:30 PM


----------



## Ryan

I wish MARC would drop their "all diesel" foolishness and get with the program.

Problem is, it costs them twice as much per mile to run an electric, so it's a no-brainer to ditch them.


----------



## jis

Also their railroad is not completely electrified like SEPTA's is, and SEPTA has a lengthy tunnel with two station stops that most of their trains traverse.


----------



## Agent

If SEPTA goes with Siemens, would they have freight railroads bring the units from California, or pay Amtrak to bring them east like their ACS-64s?


----------



## PRR 60

RyanS said:


> I wish MARC would drop their "all diesel" foolishness and get with the program.
> 
> Problem is, it costs them twice as much per mile to run an electric, so it's a no-brainer to ditch them.


Part of the cost issue is the way Amtrak allocates electric power costs to operators like MARC. Amtrak makes very beneficial (to Amtrak) assumptions concerning power and electric traction system cost per train-mile (or car mile for EMU's), then bills the commuter lines accordingly. It's a take it or leave it deal. Operations like SEPTA and NJT have no choice but to take it, like it or not. MARC has a choice and has elected to leave it.

I'd be curious to know the terms under which Amtrak obtains power from Metro North. I suspect that Amtrak's getting a much better deal from MN than Amtrak offers to SEPTA and NJT. That is typically how it works.


----------



## jis

The NEC Commission will hopefully bring some rationality to this. But I am not holding my breath.


----------



## Acela150

Agent said:


> If SEPTA goes with Siemens, would they have freight railroads bring the units from California, or pay Amtrak to bring them east like their ACS-64s?


Problem is Septa is so stupid with their purchasing choices they wouldn't buy from Siemens.. Ask every Septa Conductor and Engineer what they think of the SL V's.. They will not hesitate to speak their minds!


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Its not about stupidity, it about who is lowest bidder for specifications as listed in RFP, they have to go with lowest qualified bidder if they like it or not. sometimes a RFP can be tweaked to favor a prefered bidder but he still has to come in lowest or its not gone fly.


----------



## Ryan

It absolutely is about stupidity, in writing the RFP, evaluating the RFP and then holding the contractor to the specified performance.


----------



## Acela150

Dutchrailnut said:


> Its not about stupidity, it about who is lowest bidder for specifications as listed in RFP, they have to go with lowest qualified bidder if they like it or not. sometimes a RFP can be tweaked to favor a prefered bidder but he still has to come in lowest or its not gone fly.


Dutch, I seriously have to disagree with you on Septa here.. They gave Rotem a contract for 120 EMU's. Rotem f**ked that up so bad that Septa almost got all 120 EMU's for free. The SL V's were 4-5 years behind schedule!! Best part is with those EMU's is that when they first entered service they were OOS for days with issue after issue. I have a friend who works for Septa and tells me that those cars are pieces of s**t. I've been on them and everything was fine and they went into emergency in the middle of 16th Street Jct. Fouled up the entire rush hour. Septa screwed the pooch on that order. Kawasaki was supposed to get the order but Septa pulled the contract.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

the contract was pulled due to contract irregularities that Rotem fought in court, Rotem was low bidder and it shows.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 628 and 630 are reported to have left the factory yesterday: www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,3611633.


----------



## Agent

And now Amtrak #6(24) has left with 630: www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3612556.


----------



## Agent

Here's Amtrak #6(24) with AMTK 630 west of and in Ottumwa, Iowa this morning running abut an hour late. There's a report on Trainorders of another Sprinter on #6(25), presumably AMTK 628.


----------



## Blackwolf

ACS-64 #628 was in the Oakland yard attached to the head-end of what looked like the CZ consist (still with baggage and transdorm) on Christmas Eve, so I can believe the report of it heading east on #6(25).


----------



## Acela150

Is it me or in the second video posted above are the wheels on that Brat not turning?


----------



## MattW

No, they're turning, it looks like their rotation rate synced up just right with the framerate of the camera.


----------



## Paging Dr. Agent

Hey Agent, were you wearing a red jacket and filming Train 6(25) with a tripod this morning in Agency? Saw you as we flew through town.


----------



## John Bredin

Though I hesitate to perpetuate a tangent  I have to ask the Silverliner V critics: hasn't Denver RTD also bought Silverliner V cars? If so, is RTD equally stupid as SEPTA?

Not a rhetorical question; maybe you're right and both agencies are wrong. But if RTD wanted to piggyback on an existing EMU design or order, they could've picked the Metra Electric cars or Metro-North M8 cars, for instance. They didn't.


----------



## Agent

Yes, that was me. Looks like 628 had its first taste of winter:


----------



## Guest

Agent said:


> Yes, that was me. Looks like 628 had its first taste of winter:


Nice, I'll bookmark this one. Yes, it was pretty wintery yesterday, especially up around Moffat. Skiers who boarded at Fraser were wearing smiles from ear to ear all night.


----------



## Acela150

John Bredin said:


> Though I hesitate to perpetuate a tangent  I have to ask the Silverliner V critics: hasn't Denver RTD also bought Silverliner V cars? If so, is RTD equally stupid as SEPTA?
> 
> Not a rhetorical question; maybe you're right and both agencies are wrong. But if RTD wanted to piggyback on an existing EMU design or order, they could've picked the Metra Electric cars or Metro-North M8 cars, for instance. They didn't.


Looking at photos of them. They're a slightly modified SL V.


----------



## Agent

I should add these better-shot videos of Amtrak #6(25) made by another train enthusiast in Ottumwa, Iowa.


----------



## andersone

Ottumwa, a nice place to visit

however ignorant some of the citizens may be

(and home of Radar O'Reilly for us ancients)


----------



## Agent

Amtrak is scheduled to pick up the next ACS-64 at the Siemens factory today: www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,3627635.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 631 is now heading east on Amtrak #6(10). Found this video of it near Reno, Nevada.


----------



## Agent

The _California Zephyr_ with 631 came through southeast Iowa this morning running almost on time. I think this might be the last time an ACS-64 will be coupled to a heritage baggage car on the _Zephyr_.

(Skip to the 5:29 mark for Amtrak, unless you want to watch BNSF hi-rail trucks go from road to rail.)


----------



## MrFSS

Agent said:


> The _California Zephyr_ with 631 came through southeast Iowa this morning running almost on time. I think this might be the last time an ACS-64 will be coupled to a heritage baggage car on the _Zephyr_.
> 
> (Skip to the 5:29 mark for Amtrak, unless you want to watch BNSF hi-rail trucks go from road to rail.)



Was the wind blowing a little bit???


----------



## Thirdrail7

Oh wonderful. I hope this one has the latest mods.


----------



## MikefromCrete

I've seen no reports that the Viewliner II baggage cars have entered service. Last I heard they're still at Miami awaiting inspection. I expect they will enter service on the eastern trains first so it will be a while before they are assigned to the California Zephyr.


----------



## Agent

I'm not expecting the Viewliner baggage cars to be put on the _California Zephyr_ anytime soon. But they're starting to pull heritage baggage cars off the _Zephyr_ and other trains for over a month, and I'm not entirely confident they'll be using heritage baggage cars when they start putting baggage cars back on.


----------



## mgl1978

Amtrak ACS-64 631 was on the Cardinal today. 1/14/15


----------



## Agent

Well, I was wrong about there not being heritage baggage cars when the next ACS-64 came through. AMTK 632 is heading east on Amtrak #6(17), and was twenty-six minutes late when it passed by Agency, Iowa this morning. This post on Trainorders says AMTK 635 is on #6(18).

Is that pink paint covering the snowplow on the lead unit? The same Trainorders post shows it didn't look like that leaving California.


----------



## Fan Railer

They skipped 33 and 34? 0.o


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> Is that pink paint covering the snowplow on the lead unit? The same Trainorders post shows it didn't look like that leaving California.


Maybe it hit a pink flamingo?

As for #635 coming next, there has been a month plus gap in deliveries, so there is likely a small backlog of new ACS-64s that will be making their way east in the next several weeks.


----------



## Agent

635 did come through Ottumwa, Iowa today with less pink this time (although the paint on the caboose at the beginning has pretty muck faded to pink):


----------



## afigg

Saw this youtube video link posted elsewhere of #627 and #618 pulling the 60 car long Circus train through Secaucus junction: Amtrak 2015 Circus Train w/ Two ACS-64s @ Secaucus Jct. #602, seen on the foreground, was there as a chase/protect engine in case there was a problem pulling the Circus train through the tunnels to Long Island.

So what is the pets on board policy for the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey circus train?


----------



## Agent

Not the best quality, but I found a video of Amtrak #30(24), the _Capitol Limited_, with a new ACS-64. I can't tell which one.

http://youtu.be/31vA5IZWNTU

Meanwhile, Amtrak #6(24) departed California with AMTK 633: www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,3672829.


----------



## Agent

Here's Amtrak #6 with 633 running about an hour and a half later in Agency, Iowa. You might notice we got some snow yesterday.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 636 was on Amtrak #6(25) today. There was also an extra sightseer lounge with a "Big Game Train" poster on a window.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks for sharing! IMO the best way to see snow is from the Lounge on a high balling LD Train!


----------



## jis

So we are past the halfway mark!


----------



## Thirdrail7

Now, we have to wait for the lower units to receive their updated mods. That will take time.


----------



## Agent

Thirdrail7 said:


> Now, we have to wait for the lower units to receive their updated mods. That will take time.


What are the modifications that are needed?


----------



## VentureForth

Where are these being manufactured, and why would there be pictures on railpictures.net of the ACS being towed in NEVADA???


----------



## Ryan

They're being manufactured in California and transported to the east coast using the CZ and then Cap or Card.


----------



## VentureForth

Ahhh. Ok. For some reason, I thought they were being manufactured on the East Coast. How many more are to be delivered?


----------



## Ryan

We just passed the halfway point.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

VentureForth said:


> Ahhh. Ok. For some reason, I thought they were being manufactured on the East Coast. How many more are to be delivered?


The Viewliner II's are being manufactured on the east coast. You probably already knew that.


----------



## KmH

Yep.

Siemens is assembling the ACS-64's in Florin, California to comply with the "Buy American" part of the 1982 Surface Transportation Assistance Act.

The traction inverters and other electrical pieces are made in Alpharetta and Norcross, GA. The traction motors and gear units are built in Norwood, OH.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Agent said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, we have to wait for the lower units to receive their updated mods. That will take time.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the modifications that are needed?
Click to expand...

Some of the lower units do not have the same software as the higher units. They are light years behind. Additionally, some of the newer features that were added during the year of operation must be installed in some of the lower units. The next change is already afoot. The shakedown train this week will test the compatibility of two units on opposite ends of the train. While this was a common operating procedure for diesels, it didn't work with the AEM-7s or HHP-8s. As such, that mod will be installed on the lower units.

They are a work in progress.

One feature that none of them have is the fix for that gaping hole they were warned about. Hopefully, they will have installed some sort of shroud or shield by next winter.


----------



## City of Miami

ACS-64 #636 arrived on train 50 last night.


----------



## PerRock

Any news on the roof cowling? I've seen pictures of the parts that are reportedly going on the roof, but haven't seen an ACS-64 with them on it.

peter


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, we have to wait for the lower units to receive their updated mods. That will take time.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the modifications that are needed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some of the lower units do not have the same software as the higher units. They are light years behind. Additionally, some of the newer features that were added during the year of operation must be installed in some of the lower units. The next change is already afoot. The shakedown train this week will test the compatibility of two units on opposite ends of the train. While this was a common operating procedure for diesels, it didn't work with the AEM-7s or HHP-8s. As such, that mod will be installed on the lower units.
> 
> They are a work in progress.
> 
> One feature that none of them have is the fix for that gaping hole they were warned about. Hopefully, they will have installed some sort of shroud or shield by next winter.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the information. I hope that the retrofits go fairly quickly and that all the ACS-64s are "fully modernized" by the end of the year. If it's mostly software, that should be easy; if there's a lot of hardware, I guess it could take a while.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I'm sure this is a long shot but did anyone happen to capture video of the 629/630 sandwich train?


----------



## Ryan

Have you looked at the Northeast Corridor Railfans group on Facebook? Decent chance someone there did.


----------



## Agent

Found two videos from Wednesday. First on the Hell Gate Line:



And this one is from South Attleboro, Massachusetts:

http://youtu.be/D6kl85t5Qj8


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thank you Agent. This works since I'm not on Facebook.


----------



## afigg

There are reports on trainorders that #634 and #637 have started making their way eastward with #634 currently on a CZ.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 637 is on Amtrak #6(10). 634 is on #6(11).

Here's #6(10) today near Winter Park, Colorado:

https://youtu.be/WVLceK92Mc0


----------



## saturn04

I saw it, on #5 now and passed it!


----------



## Agent

Here's #6(10) with AMTK 637 in Ottumwa, Iowa this morning. The train was running just over half an hour late.

https://youtu.be/AZMHoiJR9us


----------



## Joe

Does anyone know when these units will go east?


----------



## Agent

Here's AMTK 634 finally going east through southeast Iowa today. Apparently, 165 still likes to smoke a bit.

https://youtu.be/ItHBxDIMOZQ


----------



## Agent

A recording of a web camera showing 637 on the _Capitol Limited_ with anniversary unit 145 leading.

https://youtu.be/uifIMMjViMk


----------



## Agent

Here's a report stating AMTK 638 and 639 are on train #6(28).


----------



## KmH

Agent!

I'll be getting on the #6(28) train Monday morning at OTM.

If you're there, I'll wave from the coach car pax loading door window as we go by your video spot.

I'm going to Burlington for lunch to score some Double Days AGR points.

So, I'll wave again that evening as I return to OTM on the #5(30).


----------



## Palmetto

I'd like to do something like that out of MIA, but I have to go all the way to Sebring to do it; trains northbound stop only to receive passengers up to and including West Palm Beach.


----------



## bobnjulie

You guys got me because I got my foam on!!!! I'm uploading the video and pictures on my flickr account. I was filming the Zephyr consist as we went past on the first Capitol Corridor out of San Jose and on the video you hear me say "Oh my God!" Not good video since I actually mostly dropped the camera! We were supposed to run to the train museum when we made it to Sacramento but instead waited for the CZ to come and took a ton of pictures.... they literally have the new car smell! As if that wasn't cool enough, the Veterans Engine was at the head end of the 3:30 Capitol Corridor train at Sacramento, we actually caught the Martinez drawbridge up and I spotted a Superliner on a Captiol Corridor consist..... whatta day!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157649288619784/

Hope this works~


----------



## George K

bobnjulie said:


> You guys got me because I got my foam on!!!! I'm uploading the video and pictures on my flickr account.


Link, please?


----------



## Agent

KmH said:


> Agent!
> 
> I'll be getting on the #6(28) train Monday morning at OTM.
> 
> If you're there, I'll wave from the coach car pax loading door window as we go by your video spot.
> 
> I'm going to Burlington for lunch to score some Double Days AGR points.
> 
> So, I'll wave again that evening as I return to OTM on the #5(30).


For the ACS-64s, I'm going to try to be in Ottumwa itself.


----------



## Agent

Well Mr. KmH, I hope you didn't mind a late lunch.

Amtrak #6(28) with 639 and 638 (plus a pair of consecutively numbered P42s) left Ottumwa three hours and three minutes late. The 2015-built electric locomotives were next to a 1961-built baggage car. Also, a friend of mine also took a picture of the train in Ottumwa.


----------



## afigg

So if #638 and #639 are put on an eastbound Capitol Limited in a couple of days along with a new Viewliner II baggage car, will that result in a foamer overload event?


----------



## KmH

Lol. I see you were in Ottumwa too.

I got the consolation prize!

I got to watch several freight trains go by the station while I waited, and waited, and waited for my ride.


----------



## Fan Railer

634 + 635 are currently up at BOS after completing the 3rd leg of their acceptance test run. Going to be heading back to WAS tomorrow (4/2).


----------



## adamj023

Are the Silver Meteor and Northeast regional trains mostly ACS 64 now? I guess over half the Sprinters came in for electrical service on the northeastern corridor and the older non rebuilt AES 7 cars are pretty much getting the boot while rebuilt AES 7 will stay a little longer till deliveries finish.


----------



## SarahZ

While leaving Chicago on the 6:00 Wolverine last night, I saw an ACS 64 attached between the second loco and baggage car of either 29 or 30 (the car numbers varied; some hadn't been switched).


----------



## AmtrakBlue

SarahZ said:


> While leaving Chicago on the 6:00 Wolverine last night, I saw an ACS 64 attached between the second loco and baggage car of either 29 or 30 (the car numbers varied; some hadn't been switched).


Most likely 30 since it should be heading east.


----------



## Ryan

Maybe they put up some catenary and its hauling 29 west


----------



## SarahZ

AmtrakBlue said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> While leaving Chicago on the 6:00 Wolverine last night, I saw an ACS 64 attached between the second loco and baggage car of either 29 or 30 (the car numbers varied; some hadn't been switched).
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely 30 since it should be heading east.
Click to expand...

Possibly. I didn't know if it was the 29 that had arrived earlier in the day, but it _was_ facing locos forward.

I suppose they wouldn't have started boarding just yet, as we left at 6:00 and 30 leaves at 6:45. I just didn't want to assume.


----------



## Acela150

It's possible that it was still on the CZ consist.


----------



## Agent

I've been told an ACS-64 was spotted on Amtrak #6(01) in Colorado today (Thursday).


----------



## Acela150

Cranking em out!!


----------



## Agent

Here is AMTK 640 heading east on the _California Zephyr _through Iowa today. The train was running almost three hours late at this point.

https://youtu.be/-L8--smZ8PU


----------



## KmH

Yep. Apparently it got held up in Fraser yesterday - again.


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> Here is AMTK 640 heading east on the _California Zephyr _through Iowa today. The train was running almost three hours late at this point.


Interesting how the ACS-64s appear to be delivered in batches. After a few weeks with nothing, then last week, #638 and #639 were shipped east. We'll see if there is gap before #641 shows up.

At what point do they have enough ACS-64s cleared for revenue service before the AEM-7 ACs locomotives start getting retired? With 28 AEM-7 ACs on the active roster, I think the start of retirement of the AC units is not that far off.


----------



## George K

How many have been delivered thus far?


----------



## west point

What is important is not how many have been delivered but how many have been accepted for unlimited service. Any one have that figure ?


----------



## west point

If 28 AEM-7ACs are in service it may be once 42 ACS-64s cleared for unlimited service then the 43rd in full service might allow for AC retirements. That way a full 70 motors would be in service which is the delivery number of -64s.


----------



## KmH

George K said:


> How many have been delivered thus far?


If we go by the sequential numbers being delivered by the CZ, something like 40 of them - 638, 639, 640?




RyanS said:


> We just passed the halfway point.


----------



## Agent

Here's a report that two one more ACS-64s were, AMTK 641, was taken from the factory to Oakland on Thursday. Might have It left on Amtrak #6 on Friday.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak train #6(17) passed through Iowa yesterday with AMTK 641.

Here it is at Ottumwa (not my video):

https://youtu.be/FDz3mgeMNN4

And here it is passing a cheery tree in Agency:

https://youtu.be/Xqtg4geMxGI


----------



## PerRock

Pictures of #642 appeared on the NEC Facebook group. One interesting thing about 642, is that it's 'undecorated.' No Blue & red stripes, no "Amtrak" or the Travelscape markings. Simply silver and a little black & a Siemens logo. Any ideas why this one is different? My best guess is that another RR is going to give it a test run.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=960942653939621&set=pcb.10152673514141626&type=1&theater

peter

Edit: correction, there is an Amtrak logo. It's small and by the side window. I missed it in the smaller view FB gave me. Question still stands however.


----------



## 129

PerRock said:


> Pictures of #642 appeared on the NEC Facebook group. One interesting thing about 642, is that it's 'undecorated.' No Blue & red stripes, no "Amtrak" or the Travelscape markings. Simply silver and a little black & a Siemens logo. Any ideas why this one is different? My best guess is that another RR is going to give it a test run.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=960942653939621&set=pcb.10152673514141626&type=1&theater
> 
> peter
> 
> Edit: correction, there is an Amtrak logo. It's small and by the side window. I missed it in the smaller view FB gave me. Question still stands however.


See page 129 of the railroad dot net thread.


----------



## PerRock

:S I'm not familiar with that site. The thread on it I did find didn't say anything about undecorated ACS-64s on (or around) page 129. There was some talk about which car takes the most drag on the HEP and something beyond me about power changes and with 'T something' device.

peter


----------



## Ryan

Bottom of page 132 on that thread. Reportedly going to Beech Grove for a bit. Guess those guys can get an advanced look at what a Charger is going to kind-of sort-of look like. Maybe they'll give it a fancy wrap job or something while they're at it.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> Bottom of page 132 on that thread. Reportedly going to Beech Grove for a bit. Guess those guys can get an advanced look at what a Charger is going to kind-of sort-of look like. Maybe they'll give it a fancy wrap job or something while they're at it.


An Electric in BEE??!! They won't know what to do! But, I'd be perfectly ok with it being put in some Phase III.


----------



## PerRock

Something like this?

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/PerRock/ES64U-phIII.jpg~original

There is a photoshopped version of an ACS-64 in that scheme (I couldn't find it for this post) I recreated it using a ES64 since we don't have an ACS-64 for Trainz yet.

peter


----------



## Guest

RyanS said:


> Bottom of page 132 on that thread. Reportedly going to Beech Grove for a bit. Guess those guys can get an advanced look at what a Charger is going to kind-of sort-of look like. Maybe they'll give it a fancy wrap job or something while they're at it.


I am pretty sure it is getting the Veterans paint livery. Diesel 42 has it. This is 642. I don't think that is a coincidence.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 642 with missing paint spotted leaving California on Amtrak #6(25) today. This train will be Denver on Sunday and Chicago on Monday.


----------



## Ryan

Thinking about it more, it's gotta be paint. No other reason to ship it "plain". Since its 642, my money is on Veterans.


----------



## Agent

Here is AMTK 642 on train #6(25) this morning at the depot in Ottumwa, Iowa this morning. The train was just under an hour late, but has lost some more time since then.


----------



## Amtrak172

I say Veterans


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is AMTK 640 heading east on the _California Zephyr _through Iowa today. The train was running almost three hours late at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how the ACS-64s appear to be delivered in batches. After a few weeks with nothing, then last week, #638 and #639 were shipped east. We'll see if there is gap before #641 shows up.
> 
> At what point do they have enough ACS-64s cleared for revenue service before the AEM-7 ACs locomotives start getting retired? With 28 AEM-7 ACs on the active roster, I think the start of retirement of the AC units is not that far off.
Click to expand...

That's not that surprising really. Locomotives are not built on a conveyor belt like cars but there are a limited number of berths in the assembly shop, limited number of body jigs etc, and they can't start work on the next locomotive until they've moved a finished one out.


----------



## Agent

There's a report here that AMTK 643 is being displayed on a turntable at the California State Railroad Museum.


----------



## BrianPR3

So it's confirmed that on the NEC facebook page, 642 will be the electric veterans scheme.


----------



## Acela150

I say who cares.. If it runs I'm happy.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 643 has left the museum and is now going east on Amtrak #6(09). There's also private varnish _The Patrón Tequila Express _on the end of the train. This _Zephyr_ was three and half hours late out of Ottumwa, Iowa.


----------



## MrFSS

Agent said:


> AMTK 643 has left the museum and is now going east on Amtrak #6(09). There's also private varnish _The Patrón Tequila Express _on the end of the train. This _Zephyr_ was three and half hours late out of Ottumwa, Iowa.


What's the approximate speed as it passes that location, if you know?


----------



## Agent

MrFSS said:


> What's the approximate speed as it passes that location, if you know?


Speed limit is 79 mph for passenger trains here. I think they usually go about that speed.


----------



## MrFSS

Agent said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the approximate speed as it passes that location, if you know?
> 
> 
> 
> Speed limit is 79 mph for passenger trains here. I think they usually go about that speed.
Click to expand...

Thanks - that's what I would have thought, it looks like it is going slower in the video (nice catch, by the way). You can tell it is moving along, Just not as fast as I thought it would be.


----------



## George K

Sorry if it's off-topic, but a question about pulling stuff. I've seen several vids of various trains with the ACS-64 in the consist. Obviously, not powered. Does that amount of dead weight contribute a lot to the workload of the motive power pulling it?

Oh, nice vid too!


----------



## Acela150

George, today I was on the Head End of 625 on Keystone Train 648. Keystone trains are 5 cars. To me these new units have no issues with a consist of 5 cars. The unit got the train up to speed quickly.


----------



## Ryan

I think he's talking about the weight of one of these dead in tow on the CZ/Cap/Card. Should't make that much of a difference.


----------



## Acela150

Even then. Like you said Ryan, not much of a difference at all. It's just like adding an extra car or two.


----------



## cirdan

An ACS-64 weighs about 98 tons

A Superliner weighs about 68 tons, so a dead locomotive weighs more than one Superliner but less than two.

The drag of pulling a dead locomotive may be slightly more than that though as the traction gearbox causes additional drag. But probably less than a ton, so negligible in the bigger picture.


----------



## CCC1007

Any updates on 642?


----------



## Ryan

No.


----------



## Agent

CCC1007 said:


> Any updates on 642?


There's a report that Beech Grove finished it on Sunday, but I haven't seen any pictures or videos to confirm that.


----------



## Amtrak172

I can't wait to see it on the rails!


----------



## Thirdrail7

642 is almost done and 644 is ready to be picked up.



afigg said:


> At what point do they have enough ACS-64s cleared for revenue service before the AEM-7 ACs locomotives start getting retired? With 28 AEM-7 ACs on the active roster, I think the start of retirement of the AC units is not that far off.


They started retiring some of the problem remans already.


----------



## Ryan

As always, you are a fountain of useful information. Thanks again.


----------



## BrianPR3

i don't mean to sound wrong regarding 601 can they claim warranty due to it's accident if it's able to be repaired etc


----------



## keelhauled

If it can be proven the accident was due to a manufacturing fault on the part of Siemens I suppose. Otherwise no. And if it was the locomotives' fault then I think Siemens will have considerably more liability on its hands than a single warranty repair.


----------



## offroad437

Do you think 601 will be fixed or retired.


----------



## keelhauled

Beats me. I've only seen the same pictures everyone else has. Probably depends on the internal damage. The shell can be fixed/replaced relatively easily, but the components are the expensive part. I doubt even Amtrak knows this early, I expect the NTSB is still examining it.


----------



## Ryan

Agent said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any updates on 642?
> 
> 
> 
> There's a report that Beech Grove finished it on Sunday, but I haven't seen any pictures or videos to confirm that.
Click to expand...

As posted in the Amtrak Northeast Corridor Railfans Facebook group:

HAWT:


----------



## Agent

Apparently, the last report I posted on 642 being done was false, but now 642 is supposedly to leave Indianapolis on the _Hoosier State _to Chicago today. Don't know why it would be going to Chicago first.


----------



## Acela150

Easier to be put on the Cardinal or Cap.


----------



## cirdan

offroad437 said:


> Do you think 601 will be fixed or retired.


My hunch is that its going to be fixed.

But then I guess there is a grey area between fixing a loco by replacing the broken bits, and building a new loco using some bits salvaged from the wreck.


----------



## Agent

This report says AMTK 644 and 645 are both heading east on Amtrak #6(23).


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> This report says AMTK 644 and 645 are both heading east on Amtrak #6(23).


#645 would be the 46th unit delivered. Which puts the production delivery just under the 2/3rds point out of 70 units total. With 7 months left in 2015, Siemens appears to be on track to complete the production run by the end of the calendar year or by very early 2016.


----------



## jis

They have a strong incentive to get this out of the way ASAP. They have a whole lot of Chargers to deliver to ASF and the Midwest states and California, not to mention passenger cars to AAF, in short order.


----------



## Agent

#6(23) and the Sprinter pair came through Agency, Iowa running just over four hours late. I pressed my luck a bit on this one. The _Zephyr_ doesn't appear unit 4:49, but there's an interesting BNSF engineer before then.


----------



## KmH

Look Ma! No hands!


----------



## Acela150

I could never grasp the concept of DPU's. Nice video!


----------



## PerRock

Not really a heads up, but the NTSB posted a picture of #601's data recorder, if anyone's interested, here is what the ACS-64 Black Boxes look like:







peter


----------



## Ryan

Doesn't look very black to me. 

(yes, I know they're all orange for visibility after a crash)


----------



## afigg

Its official. Amtrak will not be the only operators of ACS-64s in the US. SEPTA has reached an agreement with Siemens to buy 13 ACS-64s with an option for 5 more. Philly.com: SEPTA plans to spend $154 million on new locomotives.

Excerpt:



> SEPTA plans to spend up to $154 million for 18 new Regional Rail locomotives, the authority's biggest railroad acquisition in a decade.
> 
> The electric locomotives would replace eight aging engines operating on the Lansdale-Doylestown, Paoli-Thorndale, Trenton, and Wilmington-Newark lines, and to add capacity to other lines.
> 
> The SEPTA board is expected to approve the purchase on Thursday, with the locomotives to be delivered in 2018.
> 
> SEPTA is buying 13 "Cities Sprinter" ACS-64 locomotives to be built by Siemens Industry Inc., the German conglomerate, at its Sacramento, Calif., factory. The purchase price includes an option for five additional locomotives.


So in 2018, rail fans in SEPTA territory can start to look for Sprinters in SEPTA colors! The delivery timing makes sense as Siemens will be busy delivering Charger diesel locomotives to the states and AAF through 2018.


----------



## MattW

Excellent! Always great to see another operator making the right decision on locomotives (I'm looking at you MARC).


----------



## PerRock

Does this mean that the "Amtrak Cities Sprinter" will become the "American Cities Sprinter"?

peter


----------



## jis

I guess they will also need to buy a few cars to attach those locomotives to. At present they have about 50 trailers and 8 locomotives.


----------



## Eric S

Hasn't SEPTA been looking a bilevel equipment? Perhaps to pair with the new locomotives?


----------



## Agent

A couple questions popped into my mind.

Would these be "SCS-64s" instead of ACS-64s?

How would these be transported from California? Would Amtrak be willing to give SEPTA units a ride?


----------



## afigg

Eric S said:


> Hasn't SEPTA been looking a bilevel equipment? Perhaps to pair with the new locomotives?


Yes. As the news article states: "And it will soon begin the process of procuring 45 bi-level railcars to increase capacity on the Regional Rail lines." So the SEPTA ACS-64s will be teamed with new bi-level cars for rush hour trains.


----------



## jis

Agent said:


> A couple questions popped into my mind.
> 
> Would these be "SCS-64s" instead of ACS-64s?
> 
> How would these be transported from California? Would Amtrak be willing to give SEPTA units a ride?


Amtrak will do anything for a suitable cash incentive.  Even if they won't I am sure UP or BNSF together with CSX or NS would be happy to oblige. Nice addition to a hot shot I should think.


----------



## George K

jis said:


> Amtrak will do anything for a suitable cash incentive.


At about $2/mile, they'll haul PV - why not another locomotive?


----------



## Eric S

afigg said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hasn't SEPTA been looking a bilevel equipment? Perhaps to pair with the new locomotives?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. As the news article states: "And it will soon begin the process of procuring 45 bi-level railcars to increase capacity on the Regional Rail lines." So the SEPTA ACS-64s will be teamed with new bi-level cars for rush hour trains.
Click to expand...

Ugh, that's what I get for posting before reading...


----------



## neroden

MattW said:


> Excellent! Always great to see another operator making the right decision on locomotives (I'm looking at you MARC).


Yeah, seriously, MARC should get with the program... not to mention the MBTA.


----------



## Ryan

Too bad that isn't going to happen, as they're planning on going all diesel.

Between the cost of the electricity to run them and paying Amtrak to maintain them, it costs MARC almost twice as much per mile to operate an electric motor over their diesels, and they don't have that kind of money to throw around.


----------



## Eric S

neroden said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent! Always great to see another operator making the right decision on locomotives (I'm looking at you MARC).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, seriously, MARC should get with the program... not to mention the MBTA.
Click to expand...

Speaking of SEPTA, is it the *right* decision, or just a better decision? Would going all-EMU (whether bilevel or single-level as now) make more sense? Honest question, as EMUs seem to be the more typical standard outside of North America. I suppose there may not be bilevel EMUs in service in North America that fit the clearances in the Northeast, but they do exist elsewhere - and if Caltrain can get a waiver from FRA standards to operate different equipment then SEPTA could certainly try as well.

As for MARC and MBTA, it's absurd that our fragmented/disjointed/backwards rail "network" and "planning" leads to such situations. Amtrak's interests are served by having commuter trains operate as quickly (both top speed and acceleration) as possible and I have to imagine that optimizing the equipment operated is overall less expensive than expanding track capacity.


----------



## jis

If things like that actually bothered Amtrak enough they could incentivize the use of electric equipment by suitably adjusting traction power rates charged. but as long as traction power rates charged makes the effective cost of operating a train using electric engines more expensive than doing the same with diesel engines, there is very little incentive for an operation for which the Amtrak route is the only electric route, to operate it using electric power. As they say, follow the money and you will see the reason. It is no surprise that on the NEC only those outfits that must operate electrically do so. Not any of the others.


----------



## Eric S

I'm basically just venting here, but it's frustrating that billions are sought to expand track capacity before millions are sought to optimize operations. But, this is getting farther away from ACS-64s, so...


----------



## jis

Bringing the whole thing back to the ACS-64, here is one of the best annotated photo of the Engineer's controls of the ACS-64 that I have come across anywhere:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Inside_the_cab_of_Train_188.html


----------



## neroden

I don't know what rates Amtrak charges for traction power; I've never heard an actual quote. I have a sneaking suspicion that they're not outlandish. There is one thing which would cause them to appear unreasonable to *MARC*, though -- the going rates for both electricity and diesel vary wildly by region.

Amtrak gets its electricity for the the NEC from a very specific -- and expensive -- list of sources:

(North end)

Branford, CT (Eversource Energy / CL&P, EIA suggests 15.42 cents average price for this utility)

New London, CT (Eversource Energy / CL&P)

Warwick, RI (National Grid / Narraganset Electric, EIA suggests 14.34 cents average price)

Sharon, MA (National Grid or Eversource, I'm not sure which)

(South end)

Safe Harbor Dam (probably the cheapest, no public pricing available)

Metuchen NJ Rotary Converter (Public Service Co., very expensive electricity, EIA suggests 14.82 cents)

Lamokin PA Rotary Converter (Probably PECO, very expensive electricity, EIA suggests 13.92 cents -- or is it PP&L?)

Sunnyside NY Static Converter (ConEd, easily the most expensive electricity, EIA suggests 23.85 cents)

Richmond PA Static Converter (PECO, or is it PP&L? -- PP&L is only 12.22 average)

Jericho Park MD Static Converter (Baltimore Gas & Electric / Exelon, 13.43 cents)

By contrast, in upstate NY closer to Niagara Falls, I pay 11 cents.

If Amtrak is charging the same price for traction power along its entire system, that price will reflect an average of the costs along the length of the system. The north end is a lot more expensive than the south end and NYC is most expensive of all. If this is averaged, it may have the effect of high pricing as it appears to MARC. 

Incidentally, ConEd / New York City prices are *so* high and rising *so* fast that in a few years it will probably be cost-effective for Amtrak to retire the Sunnyside converter in favor of banks of batteries such as the "utility scale" ones Tesla is producing (which are dropping in price), and use them to store electricity bought from cheaper utilities down the line.

Meanwhile, diesel in the PADD 1B region at $3.143. This is the second highest priced region in the country -- only on the west coast is it more expensive -- but it's cheap by historical standards.

MARC is still totally wrong to commit to diesels, because the price of diesel is not going to drop, and is very likely to go up, certainly to $4/gallon. The price of electricity, however will start dropping as solar reaches grid parity and the big solar deployments start going in. At some point it'll be clearly more expensive to run diesels... and I doubt that the MARC board has done its Levelized Cost estimates over the 20+-year-lifetime of the locomotives. 

(Well, that was a fun hour browsing EIA statistics.)


----------



## neroden

Ryan said:


> Too bad that isn't going to happen, as they're planning on going all diesel.
> 
> Between the cost of the electricity to run them and paying Amtrak to maintain them, it costs MARC almost twice as much per mile to operate an electric motor over their diesels, and they don't have that kind of money to throw around.


So MARC should maintain new electric motors itself -- or pay SEPTA to maintain them, since SEPTA will have its own fleet of ACS-64s. They're cheaper to maintain than diesels;. If Amtrak is overcharging for maintenance, do it somewhere else -- it's not like they don't have options.

Amtrak has a monopoly on traction power supply and is presumably overcharging somewhat, but I honestly can't believe the claims that they would cost twice as much per mile to operate. Is MARC perhaps comparing new diesels with old, non-regenerative-braking AEM-7s? Or with the shop-queen high-power-draw HHP-8s? MARC should be comparing them with ACS-64s, obviously. I suspect MARC of having made an apples-to-oranges comparison.

King County Metro (Seattle) issued a hatchet job report on its trolleybuses a couple of years ago comparing brand new fuel buses with their 20-year-old Bredas rather than comparing them with brand new New Flyer trolleybuses -- local activists cried foul, got after them, and King County Metro ended up issuing a new report which showed that yes, trolleybuses were cheaper to operate.

I can't find energy efficiency numbers for the MP40s. So take an optimistic 2.1 gallons per mile, based on Amtrak's performance -- that's $6.60 per mile now, but $8.40 per mile when diesel goes back to $4/gallon, as it will, and as it was when MARC's decisions were being made.

I have had difficulty finding the average energy efficiency of the ACS-64s in kwh/mile. So I guesstimated. The ACS-64 weighs 215,537 lb., while the Bombardier bilevels weigh approximately 134,880 lb, and there are typically 7 of them. Extrapolate from the energy efficiency of my electric auto, accounting for the extra mass, and you should be able to get 82.9 kwh/mile. (This is quite pessimistic because steel-on-steel has better traction than rubber-on-asphalt, and railroads have much shallower grades than the roads I drive on.)

At this rate, in order for electric traction to beat $4 diesel (disregarding maintenance) it would have to cost 10.1 cents / kwh or less. This is based on optimistic assumptions for diesel and pessimistic assumptions for electricity. So diesel may look cheaper *now*, but not *half* as expensive. Amtrak's presumably charging more than that, due to the inflated utility company prices along the corridor, but is Amtrak seriously charging 20 cents / kwh? I suppose it's possible.

I still doubt that MARC has done a proper apples-to-apples analysis with a 20-year cost projection.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Neroden:

While I still believe that you are probably correct in the assumption that a true apples to oranges analysis probably hasn't occurred, I'm not convinced that keeping electrics is the proper course of action based upon a previous statement you made:



neroden said:


> One of the lessons of the HHP-8s -- not a new lesson -- is that small classes of equipment are a bad idea. With a large class of HHP-8s, I could imagine all the bugs being worked out, the biggest problems being retrofitted, and stockpiles of spare parts. With a small class, there certainly weren't stockpiles of spare parts, and it was hardly worth retrofitting such a small class in any way...


MARC would likely only order 10 electrics to replace their current fleet. Combine that with Amtrak's 70 units and Septa's 15 (max) order and it pales in comparison to the size of the MPI fleet that spans the nation. It is a small, specialized class of equipment.

There will only be one source of parts and that is Siemens.Since MARC subcontract their operations, I don't foresee them jumping into the locomotive maintenance in the new future. If they do not plan to deal with Amtrak, they would have to depend on SEPTA, which is an agency that never even overhauled their electrics. Additionally, how much would it cost MARC to have SEPTA maintain their equipment? By the time you deadhead the unit to wherever they plan to repair their units, it can be gone for weeks.

There is something to be said for a common fleet that can go anywhere, at any time. You can't say that when you have electrics involved unless the entire territory is or will be electrified. MARC will no longer have to bench certain trains at certain times or pay a switching crew to handle the electrics.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> MARC is still totally wrong to commit to diesels, because the price of diesel is not going to drop, and is very likely to go up, certainly to $4/gallon. The price of electricity, however will start dropping as solar reaches grid parity and the big solar deployments start going in. At some point it'll be clearly more expensive to run diesels... and I doubt that the MARC board has done its Levelized Cost estimates over the 20+-year-lifetime of the locomotives.
> 
> (Well, that was a fun hour browsing EIA statistics.)


Have you taken into consideration the cost of maintaining two separate locomotive fleets? It seems to me that if you are forced to maintain a significant diesel fleet and need an electric fleet for just one line, a fleet that you can do without, that is something that should be taken into consideration. I don't think electric rates is the only issue, but it could be an issue that broke the camels back, in a manner of speaking.

NJTransit actually has claimed in the past that they pay a higher rate for power on the Amtrak supplied part of the network than they pay for commercially sourced power for their 25kV electrification. I have no idea how they even figure out what they pay Amtrak, since AFAIK they do a gross up amount handshake once every couple of years for trackage and power. I suppose they use some per unit number to do the grossing up and that is what they are talking about.

Amtrak at one point tried to get itself declared an utility since it delivers power to others, to get some rate advantage. but that attempt was denied by the powers that be. Maybe PRR remembers the details. Also PRR being a retiree from an electric utility company, may have insights into this which he may or may not be willing to share.


----------



## CHamilton

neroden said:


> King County Metro (Seattle) issued a hatchet job report on its trolleybuses a couple of years ago comparing brand new fuel buses with their 20-year-old Bredas rather than comparing them with brand new New Flyer trolleybuses -- local activists cried foul, got after them, and King County Metro ended up issuing a new report which showed that yes, trolleybuses were cheaper to operate.


Definitely OT, but here's the report you're referring to.


----------



## neroden

Good points all. It does show that it makes no sense to have management fragmented between Amtrak, NJT, SEPTA, MARC, etc. Geographical unification is more efficient for mass transportation agencies.


----------



## PRR 60

Amtrak buys power in two parts. It has an contract with a independent power broker. This provides the bulk energy. They also have arrangements with the local supply utilities to move the purchased energy to their service points.

Amtrak's utility costs are what is called a demand rate. It is not based on the total kilowatt hours (KWH) consumed, like a residence. It is based on the peak KW load required. This is because Amtrak's load is extremely spiky, and the spikes come at just the wrong time for the supplying utilities - morning and afternoon rush hours. Demand pricing means that if something happens to reduce Amtrak's ability to get power from its non-utiltiy source - Safe Harbor Dam (such as lowe river flow), then Amtrak's utility peak utility demand goes up and Amtrak pricing is adjusted upward for a contracted period of time. Even a very short issue at Safe Harbor can affect the power costs for several months. Looking at the comparative residential power rates gives a sense of what Amtrak might be paying for power, but it is not the complete story.

Amtrak's power charge to commuter agencies like NJ Transit and SEPTA is not based on metered power consumed. It is based on a formula that considers equipment type, the power demand of each time, and the estimated miles traveled. The costs are adjusted periodically based on equipment and operational changes. The charges are not just for the energy consumed, but also for the operation and maintenance of the Amtrak electric traction system (ET). That later part really runs up the costs. Amtrak has a reputation of skewing cost sharing formulas like that heavily in their favor. Whether that is the case with the Amtrak ET formula's, I don't know.

My bet is that Amtrak is very happy not being legally considered a utility. That gets them out from under all the state and federal regulation and oversight that require utilities to fill entire floors with analysts and report writers. If Amtrak has one of their 138kV lines blow into a tree, they go out, cut the tree, fix the conductor, and turn it back on. If a utility has that happen, they do the same thing, plus pay the feds heavy fines for inadequate vegetation management. Amtrak has the better deal.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks for the info Bill! Its always good to have a pro who knows s'plain things!


----------



## neroden

PRR 60 said:


> Amtrak buys power in two parts. It has an contract with a independent power broker. This provides the bulk energy. They also have arrangements with the local supply utilities to move the purchased energy to their service points.
> 
> Amtrak's utility costs are what is called a demand rate. It is not based on the total kilowatt hours (KWH) consumed, like a residence. It is based on the peak KW load required. This is because Amtrak's load is extremely spiky, and the spikes come at just the wrong time for the supplying utilities - morning and afternoon rush hours. Demand pricing means that if something happens to reduce Amtrak's ability to get power from its non-utiltiy source - Safe Harbor Dam (such as lowe river flow), then Amtrak's utility peak utility demand goes up and Amtrak pricing is adjusted upward for a contracted period of time. Even a very short issue at Safe Harbor can affect the power costs for several months. Looking at the comparative residential power rates gives a sense of what Amtrak might be paying for power, but it is not the complete story.


I was looking at the EIA average within a utility territory over all sales: residential, commercial, industrial, and (if broken out separately) transportation. (AFAICT, transportation does *not* seem to include Amtrak; I haven't quite figured that out.) I figured since there's no way to break out Amtrak's power bill separately, the best I could do was the utility's overall average rate. Industrial per kwh rates are generally substantially cheaper than the average and residential more expensive, but peak charges can raise the industrial pricing back up, as you say.
I didn't pay much attention to the bulk-power vs. delivery thing because I've found it's not generally much of a difference from the integrated price.



> Amtrak's power charge to commuter agencies like NJ Transit and SEPTA is not based on metered power consumed.


Welllll, this is a bit of a problem, isn't it? If I were SEPTA I'd order my new motors with meters. Because that makes it all too easy to charge totally the wrong amount. I've casually looked at this kind of problem with city streetlights, which are also unmetered -- the charges are usually absurdly far off from appropriate, and cities have had to fight the electric utility over charges when they replace sodium lamps with LEDs.



> It is based on a formula that considers equipment type, the power demand of each time, and the estimated miles traveled. The costs are adjusted periodically based on equipment and operational changes. The charges are not just for the energy consumed, but also for the operation and maintenance of the Amtrak electric traction system (ET). That later part really runs up the costs. Amtrak has a reputation of skewing cost sharing formulas like that heavily in their favor. Whether that is the case with the Amtrak ET formula's, I don't know.


Mmmm. You'd think the substantial customer defection (MBTA, MARC, Shore Line East operating with diesel) would deter Amtrak from doing that; it's counterproductive. Wear & tear on the electrical system isn't much different with more trains running. Overcharging two SEPTA lines, one NJT line, and the funnel of NJT trains from Newark to New York doesn't seem like it would make enough money to compensate for the loss of the other agencies...



> My bet is that Amtrak is very happy not being legally considered a utility. That gets them out from under all the state and federal regulation and oversight that require utilities to fill entire floors with analysts and report writers. If Amtrak has one of their 138kV lines blow into a tree, they go out, cut the tree, fix the conductor, and turn it back on. If a utility has that happen, they do the same thing, plus pay the feds heavy fines for inadequate vegetation management. Amtrak has the better deal.


----------



## Amtrak172

afigg said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hasn't SEPTA been looking a bilevel equipment? Perhaps to pair with the new locomotives?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. As the news article states: "And it will soon begin the process of procuring 45 bi-level railcars to increase capacity on the Regional Rail lines." So the SEPTA ACS-64s will be teamed with new bi-level cars for rush hour trains.
Click to expand...

Do you know if the bi-level cars will be like the same as the NJ Transit ones?


----------



## Ryan

Yes.

http://septa.org/rebuilding/vehicles/bi-level.html



> In order to accommodate ridership growth on the Regional Railroad, SEPTA will purchase (up to 55) multi-level passenger railcars. These new cars, together with the new electric locomotives, will provide additional capacity to accommodate our increasing ridership. *The multi-level cars will look similar to those used by MARC between Washington and Baltimore and New Jersey Transit.*


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> Yes.
> 
> http://septa.org/rebuilding/vehicles/bi-level.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In order to accommodate ridership growth on the Regional Railroad, SEPTA will purchase (up to 55) multi-level passenger railcars. These new cars, together with the new electric locomotives, will provide additional capacity to accommodate our increasing ridership. *The multi-level cars will look similar to those used by MARC between Washington and Baltimore and New Jersey Transit.*
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks! Didn't see this post before. No these cars have the clearance of SEPTA's tunnels?


----------



## jis

They have the clearance for the New York tunnels which are tighter than the SEPTA tunnels. Ergo....


----------



## Amtrak172

jis said:


> They have the clearance for the New York tunnels which are tighter than the SEPTA tunnels. Ergo....


True, thanks! Any ETA on the new cars?


----------



## afigg

Amtrak172 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> They have the clearance for the New York tunnels which are tighter than the SEPTA tunnels. Ergo....
> 
> 
> 
> True, thanks! Any ETA on the new cars?
Click to expand...

The SEPTA board document that was posted after the formal announcement of the SEPTA ACS-64 order stated that the delivery of the locomotives is scheduled to start in June, 2018. SEPTA may tie the delivery schedule of the multi-levels to the new locomotives. As for clearance, there was a news report a few months ago that there were some clearance issues in the center city tunnels for the multi-levels, but that it would a minor project to fix. Raise some wires, move some electrical equipment, adjust the track bed sort of thing, IIRC. But this is drifting off from the topic of the Amtrak (and SEPTA) ACS-64s.


----------



## jis

Yup. They had to do all of those things at NY Penn Station too, including on signal that a multilevel knocked down during the first clearance tests in Penn Station!

So I guess in the spriit of EuroSprinters, these should be called PennsySprinters or some such? PS-64 anyone?


----------



## Agent

A couple new developments happened today.

Amtrak went to the Siemens factory to take away AMTK 646 and 647.

Also, Veterans unit 642 was seen on a test train (it first shows up at 2:53)


----------



## Amtrak172

When is 642 supposed to test on the NEC? Anyone know what time it'll go through the Trenton/Philly area?


----------



## Acela150

Well past PHL and TRE today. Well north of NYP. Usually the return will be through PHL about 3-4pm tomorrow. Usually leaves BOS between 2159 and 93.


----------



## Amtrak172

Ok thanks


----------



## Amtrak172

Acela150 said:


> Well past PHL and TRE today. Well north of NYP. Usually the return will be through PHL about 3-4pm tomorrow. Usually leaves BOS between 2159 and 93.


Could it go through TRE around that time tomorrow too?


----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## Cina

There's an ACS64 on today's 6 (which I'm currently on!) I didn't catch the number.


----------



## Acela150

There might be 2 of them... As agent posted 646 and 647 were picked up.


----------



## Cina

There is but one on mine, so who knows where the other is!


----------



## Thirdrail7

You only have the 646 in your consist. 647 didn't make the trip.


----------



## Agent

The #6 that left Emeryville on the 10th has AMTK 647 as well as a New York Central private car that is getting dropped off at Denver: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,3766246.

#6(11) that left Emeryville today has AMTK 646 with it: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3767049.


----------



## Fan Railer




----------



## Thirdrail7

Fanrailer:

You posted the tests trains in both directions on both days. on two boards (I'm playing 2 box ^_^ )without mentioning how you feel about it.

How do you feel????

Do you like it? Do you think it looks better on a diesel or an electric? Do you think the average person will notice it, particularly at speed?


----------



## Fan Railer

Thirdrail7 said:


> Fanrailer:
> 
> You posted the tests trains in both directions on both days. on two boards (I'm playing 2 box ^_^ )without mentioning how you feel about it.
> 
> How do you feel????
> 
> Do you like it? Do you think it looks better on a diesel or an electric? Do you think the average person will notice it, particularly at speed?


lol thanks for noticing 

I certainly think this is a nice departure from the bland scheme they've been using on the rest of the Sprinters so far. Honestly, I do think the scheme still looks slightly more appealing on the P42DC unit, but only because there are a couple of variations between the electric's scheme and the diesel's scheme; I think the electric's scheme still leaves a little too much grey on the side:












(Neither image is mine, by the way)...

I think that I speak for a bunch of people when I say that I'd like to see them paint more Sprinters in other (heritage) schemes.

I also think that if said "average" person were to be looking out the window of their train (or watching the tracks from the platform) in certain situations instead of having their attention glued to their smart phone device, yes, they'd notice the difference lol, although it would be much harder to do that on a moving train. Personally, I can only tell if a Sprinter is on the head of the Amtrak train flying by my NJT train (assuming the NJT is on the local track and the Amtrak is on the adjacent express track, or the NJT is on the express track in one direction and the Sprinter is on the express track in the other direction) by listening to the sound it makes as it goes by.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 647 came through Ottumwa, Iowa today on Amtrak #6(10).


----------



## Agent

Here's Amtrak #6(11) with AMTK 646 running over five hours late with a Union Pacific freight locomotive leading it just east of Chillicothe, Iowa yesterday.


----------



## TylerP42

One on 30 tonight


----------



## Fan Railer

641 ran her shakedown to BOS today (17). Will return to WAS tomorrow (18).


----------



## Amtrak172

Any news on 642?


----------



## afigg

FYI, SEPTA has posted a rendering of what appears to be the proposed SEPTA ACS-64 livery: New Electric Locomotives. And, yes, they are calling it the ACS-64, although that might change by the time it is delivered (SCS-64 for SEPTA Cities Sprinter?).


----------



## Acela150

Amtrak172 said:


> Any news on 642?


Being introduced at the Wilmington Shops Monday. NFI.


----------



## NE933

The SEPTA livery looks way better than Amtrak's; it harkens back to the original AEM-7 design!


----------



## Fan Railer

642's first day in revenue (7/2) on 184 & 129:


----------



## west point

Love hate ? Love the performance hate the software ?

Any idea why there has not been a new motor delivery for several weeks ?


----------



## Agent

west point said:


> Love hate ? Love the performance hate the software ?
> 
> Any idea why there has not been a new motor delivery for several weeks ?


There are reports here that four Sprinters were seen outside the Siemens factory on June 28 and two were supposed to picked up there on June 30.

I would guess they've been holding back for a bit until they were sure the _California Zephyr_ they were put on would make it to Chicago.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

maybe pay to ship them via one of the host railroads?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Agent said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Love hate ? Love the performance hate the software ?
> 
> Any idea why there has not been a new motor delivery for several weeks ?
> 
> 
> 
> There's reports here that four Sprinters were seen outside the Siemens factory on June 28 and two were supposed to picked up there on June 30.
> 
> I would guess they've been holding back for a bit until they were sure the _California Zephyr_ they were put on would make it to Chicago.
Click to expand...


Actually, they needed more time with the 648 and 649 so the move to pick them up a few days ago was pushed back to Thursday.


----------



## Amtrak172

At the rate Amtrak's going right now with getting the new 64's delivered, we should be close to 70 by the beginning on the fall.


----------



## Agent

Thirdrail7 said:


> Actually, they needed more time with the 648 and 649 so the move to pick them up a few days ago was pushed back to Thursday.


Must have needed a bit more time. 648 and 649 are reported to have arrived in Oakland today.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 649 is said to be on Amtrak #6(15).

Edit: Found a video the _Zephyr_ with 649.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 648 was shipped out today on #6(16).


----------



## Fan Railer

Will be in the SF area from 7/20 - 7/30. I presume there will be a few shipments while I'm there?


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> AMTK 648 was shipped out today on #6(16).


Ok, so of the two ACS-64s being moved to CHI on the CZ, which one will get in with the latest delay?


----------



## Agent

Someone shot #6(15) at Ashland, Nebraska this morning. Looks like it picked up a couple private cars at some point. This pair is usually based out of Omaha, so I'm guessing they were taken off there.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Fan Railer said:


> Will be in the SF area from 7/20 - 7/30. I presume there will be a few shipments while I'm there?


The 650 and 651 are supposedly being picked up today or tomorrow. Perhaps they will still be there when you arrive.


----------



## Agent

Here's #6(15) at Chillicothe, Iowa running six hours late. The _Zephyr_ had to wait for an hour and a half at the crossover just over a mile west of this spot for a couple westbound BNSF trains to go by first so it could get on the north track. The two westbounds had been waiting on the east side of Ottumwa for #6 to crossover to the south track there and preform its station stop. That plan went out the window due to "a situation" that had BNSF take a couple eastbound freights out of service that were on the south track. So the westbounds had come up here first to clear a path for Amtrak, which took longer than it should have since the second one made an unexpected stop and had to restart.


----------



## Agent

In contrast to the day before, #6(16) was just around an hour and forty minutes late (on top of the hour Union Pacific had the schedule set back) as seen here east of Fairfield, Iowa. The train also had the _Edward L. Ullman_ sleeping car in the second-to-last spot. The last car was a baggage-coach which I guess was deadheading.


----------



## Agent

Found this video of Amtrak #6(18) at Martinez, California with AMTK 651 running over five hours late.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

#650 is headed east on 6(19).


----------



## Agent

Here's a person's video of #6(18) arriving at the Omaha station nine hours late in daylight.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

648 on today's(20) capital limited along with a dash-8.


----------



## TylerP42

amtrakwolverine said:


> 648 on today's(20) capital limited along with a dash-8.


To add on to that:
AMTK 129 (D8-32BP) -AMTK 514 (D8-32BWH) - AMTK 648 (ACS-64) on EB Capitol Limited (#30) out of Chicago today.


----------



## lo2e

Here's the video - why does 514 look so dirty?


----------



## Agent

Here's 651 near Agency, Iowa on the now ten-hour-late #6(18). Engineer was still nice enough to give a bit of a horn show. This train met #5 about seven minutes east of here.


----------



## TylerP42

2 dining cars?


----------



## CCC1007

I only saw one in each of the two videos directly above your post


----------



## OBS

In case anyone is keeping track, 129-514 combo went south on 97 (21)...


----------



## TylerP42

Maybe I'm seeing things. I swore there was 2. Oh well.


----------



## Agent

Here's my video of AMTK 650 on Amtrak #6(19) leaving Ottumwa, Iowa yesterday.


----------



## Ryan

2 locomotives (even if one is dead in tow) and two sleepers? That almost looks like a real grownup train!!!


----------



## amtrakwolverine

TylerP42 said:


> 2 dining cars?


The capital limited that departed CHI on the 21st had 2 SSLs not 2 diners.


----------



## Agent

Another video of 651 on the _Cardinal_. This is from today at Orange, Virgina.


----------



## Thirdrail7

lo2e said:


> Here's the video - why does 514 look so dirty?



The P32-BWHs are hard to clean since the brushes can not actually touch the main body of the engine. They are blocked by the guard rail for the walkway. What ends up happening is it basically gets sprayed and rinsed. The brushes can actually scrub the P40s, P42s and the electric fleet.


----------



## Fan Railer

LOL of course they pick up 50 and 51 the weekend before I get there. Perhaps 652 will get picked up before I leave? haha


----------



## Thirdrail7

Fan Railer said:


> LOL of course they pick up 50 and 51 the weekend before I get there. Perhaps 652 will get picked up before I leave? haha


If you're still out there, they just released two more.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 652 came through Agency, Iowa today on a nine-and-a-half-hour late Amtrak #6(01). There might be another one on #6(02).


----------



## Agent

The _Capitol Limited_ left Chicago on Sunday with AMTK 653 while being led AMTK 189 which has the "Big Game Train" decals on its side. And the only evidence I've found of this move is this video photo screenshot of a web camera:


----------



## TylerP42

I would of got a video of it in Toledo but you know where I was.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(15) left Emeryville today with a new ACS-64.


----------



## Agent

#6(15) left Ottumwa, Iowa this morning running one hour and three minutes late with AMTK 654 right in front of a heritage baggage car with its door wide open. I was a bit surprised to see there was also an extra dining car on the end.


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> #6(15) left Ottumwa, Iowa this morning running one hour and three minutes late with AMTK 654 right in front of a heritage baggage car with its door wide open. I was a bit surprised to see there was also an extra dining car on the end.


That is one sorry looking Heritage baggage car trailing behind the shiny new #654. With this delivery, only 15 ACS-64s to go to complete the order. At the rate Siemens has been shipping them, looks like the last one will ship before the end of the calendar year. Then it is on to the Charger diesel locomotives.


----------



## Amtrak172

Any news on 655? Has it been spotted yet?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I think I saw a test train at WIL yesterday around 5pm while waiting for my SEPTA train. It was headed south/west. There was an engine on either end and 3 or 4 cafe cars. One employee detained there.

Being the lousy rail fan, I did think about getting the #'s or pics.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think I saw a test train at WIL yesterday around 5pm while waiting for my SEPTA train. It was headed south/west. There was an engine on either end and 3 or 4 cafe cars. One employee detained there.
> 
> Being the lousy rail fan, I did think about getting the #'s or pics.


I saw the same thing at TRE, coming down toward you at WIL!  I was expecting to see the Meteor, and by the time I saw this instead and thought, "What on earth is that?" it was gone.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I saw a test train at WIL yesterday around 5pm while waiting for my SEPTA train. It was headed south/west. There was an engine on either end and 3 or 4 cafe cars. One employee detained there.
> 
> Being the lousy rail fan, I did think about getting the #'s or pics.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the same thing at TRE, coming down toward you at WIL!  I was expecting to see the Meteor, and by the time I saw this instead and thought, "What on earth is that?" it was gone.
Click to expand...

It caught me by surprise because they didn't announce it and I was expecting my SEPTA train to come around the corner.


----------



## OBS

The test train came out of BOS, I think 647 or 649 in lead...


----------



## Ryan

I heard 647.

5 demerits for both ladies!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> I heard 647.
> 
> 5 demerits for both ladies!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

10 demerits for me when you hear what my next thought was: "It's the Meteor with only café cars to see if we will put up with no coaches, no sleepers, and no diner!" :giggle:


----------



## Bob Dylan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> 10 demerits for me when you hear what my next thought was: "It's the Meteor with only café cars to see if we will put up with no coaches, no sleepers, and no diner!" :giggle:


And one MRD! Laugh of the day !


----------



## OBS

jimhudson said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 10 demerits for me when you hear what my next thought was: "It's the Meteor with only café cars to see if we will put up with no coaches, no sleepers, and no diner!" :giggle:
> 
> 
> 
> And one MRD! Laugh of the day !
Click to expand...

Are you sure you don't work for Amtrak?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Me or Jim?

In my perfect world, I would be President of Amtrak and Baseball Commissioner.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Me or Jim?
> 
> In my perfect world, I would be President of Amtrak and Baseball Commissioner.


And all trains would have perfect service and run on time, and the 2008 Phillies would never have grown old and been broken up....


----------



## Bob Dylan

If I had the Commish gig the Lastros and Strangers would have won the World Series they lost, Roger Maris,Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, Mark McGuire, Roger Clemens and Sammy Sosa would be in the Hall of Fame and A-Roid would join them when he retires!

As for Amtrak, Anthony would be President and CEO ( I would be on the Board since I don't want to work too hard! LOL)), the Dome Cars,Round-end Lounges

and Slumber Coaches would be still be on the consists, and Amtrak would be fully funded by Congress including being able to order all needed New Equipment and updates to all the rail infrastructure would be funded along with Amtrak getting #1A Priority from all Roads and their Dispatchers!

Also there would be Full Menu/Service Diners ( meals would be a la carte, Coke not Pepsi, and the liquor and food would be top shelf), all the OBS would be HOF class like our members and the others we've had the pleasure of riding with!

Lastly, since dreams dont last forever, all of the discontinued Routes that have been offed will return and every dream train that AUers have proposed in on our wish lists will be in service with Multi Sections of all LD Trains and a True HSR Rail System for all the Rail Corridors would be built and in service within 5 years. A True Jobs Program!

How to fund it? Eliiminate all the Waste, Fraud and Abuse in the Defense and Homeland Security Budgets along with a complete overhaul of our messed up tax systems, Federal, State and Local!

Say Goodnight Gracie!


----------



## TylerP42

Anything coming through toledo tonight?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Jim, I think all your Amtrak ideas are great! 

Tyler has brought us back to the actual topic, so I am curious about an ACS-64 I have seen twice zooming through PJC. It has a yellow crown on the side--I googled it but couldn't find any information, and I am sure someone here will know what it is--thanks.


----------



## Ryan

You must mean 642, the veterans unit. Photo Credit to Amtrak's Matt Donnelly:


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Yes, that's it--thank you, Ryan. PJC is a great trainspotting station, but its one drawback is that nearly everything goes zooming through there on its way to somewhere else, so it's not easy to see details--the label can look like a crown when the train is in motion. Beautiful photo above.


----------



## Ryan

Since it's ACS-64 related. Photo by George Pitz via Facebook:


----------



## keelhauled

Care to explain the context?


----------



## Agent

684 is the unit's second number because it got bumped by the ACS-64s, right?


----------



## Acela150

Correct. A bulletin order was put out in April or May stating HHP's would be renumbered. Ironically, I still have that bulletin. 684 is former 654.


----------



## Amtrak172

Will the HHP-8's ever run again? I heard they're keeping them for backup. Oh, anyone see ACS-64 #655 yet?


----------



## Acela150

Amtrak172 said:


> Will the HHP-8's ever run again? I heard they're keeping them for backup. Oh, anyone see ACS-64 #655 yet?


No, yes, and no.


----------



## Ryan

Backup and the fact that their lease requires them to be maintained in operable condition.


----------



## TylerP42

Wasn't this a heads up thread? I don't see anyone talking about where the ACS's are going


----------



## Ryan

It's becoming pretty routine 50+ deliveries in. When one leaves (or is about to leave), someone posts about it here. In between we talk about the rollout, part of which is the retirement and renumbering of the locomotives they're replacing.


----------



## Acela150

TylerP42 said:


> Wasn't this a heads up thread? I don't see anyone talking about where the ACS's are going


Keep in mind that the ACS units are limited to about a 500 or 600 mile radius where they can run.


----------



## Ryan

Except when they're coming from CA


----------



## west point

Don't be too sure where they can run. It could be one of the last ones might take a jaunt on Denver's RTD. The east line is now energized.


----------



## Acela150

west point said:


> Don't be too sure where they can run. It could be one of the last ones might take a jaunt on Denver's RTD. The east line is now energized.


Why? RTD has an order for Hyundai Rotem cars similar to Septa SL V's. Let alone push pull sets.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 656 is reported heading east on Amtrak #6(30) and AMTK 655 is following on #6(31).


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Agent said:


> AMTK 656 is reported heading west on Amtrak #6(30) and AMTK 655 is following on #6(31).


East


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(30) came through Iowa today running just under three hours late with AMTK 656 and, as a surprise to me, the private car _Cripple Creek_.


----------



## TylerP42

Wasn't on today's 30 CL.


----------



## Railroad Bill

We just returned from Denver and were on the CZ with 656. CZ arrived several hours late into Chicago and we had only about an hour before #30 left last night. 656 was still sitting in the Amtrak yards hooked up with 6 as we left CUS. That private car coupling cost us an extra hour in DEN


----------



## neroden

Surprised to see they're still using Heritage baggage cars on #6....


----------



## Agent

TylerP42 said:


> Wasn't on today's 30 CL.


I don't believe an ACS-64 has ever left Chicago the same day it arrived there.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep, with the bad OTP of #6 this summer and the "crack" Chicago yard gangs (in)ability to get the equipment out on time, the layover in CHI makes sense!


----------



## Thirdrail7

Agent said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't on today's 30 CL.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe an ACS-64 has ever left Chicago the same day it arrived there.
Click to expand...

Typically, they aren't scheduled to leave on the same day they arrived.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(31) with AMTK 655 yesterday running on time at Fraser, Colorado taken by YouTube user Michael DeMarco.


----------



## Agent

Saw AMTK 655 in Ottumwa this morning. #6(31) was just forty-four minutes late out of Ottumwa. Sounded like the outbound engineer was in a good mood.


----------



## TylerP42

655 was sent out on the 30 the same day it came in according to reports.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #30(03) left Chicago with an ACS-64 and Phase I anniversary unit AMTK 156. It was reported here that the electric was AMTK 655.

http://youtu.be/sd4kuoKPMtU


----------



## Agent

AMTK 657 is going east on Amtrak #6(19).


----------



## Agent

AMTK 658 is on Amtrak #6(20) as seen in this video from California Zephyr Productions.


----------



## Agent

Running nine minutes behind schedule, Amtrak #6(19) is seen passing through the countryside west of Batavia, Iowa with AMTK 657.


----------



## Agent

I saw AMTK 658 on Amtrak #6(20) earlier today west of Chillicothe, Iowa. You can see the train go from the eastbound track to the westbound track so it can pass a coal train in about thirty miles.


----------



## CCC1007

Do you mean 658?


----------



## Agent

CCC1007 said:


> Do you mean 658?


Yes.


----------



## Agent

I was surprised by AMTK 659 on Amtrak #6(26) this morning at Agency, Iowa. I was also surprised by the sight of a second sightseer lounge, and I was surprised by the private cars _Chapel Hill_ and _Adirondack Club_.

This means there are only ten Sprinters left, right?


----------



## neroden

Agent said:


> This means there are only ten Sprinters left, right?


Yeah. Rumor has it they will skip #666. (Disappointing to some of us.  )


----------



## CHamilton

neroden said:


> Yeah. Rumor has it they will skip #666. (Disappointing to some of us.  )


Don't laugh. I know of a nonprofit that almost went under after they announced that their PO Box had that number. Major donors threatened to pull out, so they had to quickly change their address.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Funny that my old zip code had 666 @ the end, and some folks seemed uncomfortable, including call center reps, when I would tell them my zip code!

Other funny number phobias are the old #13 jinx, lots of hotels don't have a 13th Floor, no #13 Rooms and in Casinos there were no #13 tables, but #13 was on the Roulette table and wheel! ( Oh those French!)


----------



## MikefromCrete

I went to a Catholic high school in the 1960's which had the address 666. A number of years later, after a bunch of horror films came out featuring 666's alleged connection to the devil, the address was changed to 650.


----------



## Eric S

I want to say that when Amtrak operated trains to Atlantic City they briefly had one numbered 666. But I'd have check old timetables to make sure.


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> I was surprised by AMTK 659 on Amtrak #6(26) this morning at Agency, Iowa. I was also surprised by the sight of a second sightseer lounge, and I was surprised by the private cars _Chapel Hill_ and _Adirondack Club_.
> 
> This means there are only ten Sprinters left, right?


Whether they skip #666 or not in the engine numbering sequence, this means that there only 10 ACS-64s left to ship from the Siemens plant. At the current delivery rate, the last one could be shipped by the end of the calendar year. Which in turns means the AEM-7s could be gone from revenue service by early Spring.


----------



## PRR 60

Eric S said:


> I want to say that when Amtrak operated trains to Atlantic City they briefly had one numbered 666. But I'd have check old timetables to make sure.


Amtrak still has train #666. Weekend Keystone leaving Harrisburg at 11:20am, arriving New York at 2:57pm.


----------



## jis

Then there is the peculiar obsession with 13 mostly in the US AFAICT too, though the reason for that apparently originated in France.


----------



## Amtrak172

I received an email from a yahoo group from an Amtrak employee saying that Amtrak is planning on pulling some of the HHP-8's out of storage for a potential return to service. If they skip 666, then I guess we'll see a 670


----------



## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> I received an email from a yahoo group from an Amtrak employee saying that Amtrak is planning on pulling some of the HHP-8's out of storage for a potential return to service. If they skip 666, then I guess we'll see a 670


They have to maintain the HHP-8s in roadworthy condition until the lease expires. So they will have to be renumbered (and are being renumbered) even though there are no real plans to use them for anything at present.


----------



## west point

HHPs already renumbered 680 - 694. It may be the lease requires them to demonstrate that they are still roaadwoorthy every so often. Don't make too much of it. Amtrak would rather use AEM-7 ACs if necessary..


----------



## jis

west point said:


> HHPs already renumbered 680 - 694. It may be the lease requires them to demonstrate that they are still roaadwoorthy every so often. Don't make too much of it. Amtrak would rather use AEM-7 ACs if necessary..


Yep. That's the impression I have too.


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I received an email from a yahoo group from an Amtrak employee saying that Amtrak is planning on pulling some of the HHP-8's out of storage for a potential return to service. If they skip 666, then I guess we'll see a 670
> 
> 
> 
> They have to maintain the HHP-8s in roadworthy condition until the lease expires. So they will have to be renumbered (and are being renumbered) even though there are no real plans to use them for anything at present.
Click to expand...

You would think some sort of deal could be arranged with Bombardier, to avoid literally throwing money away maintaining locomotives which will never be used again. Even upon lease expiration, it's hard to see a situation where these units are sold to another carrier; Their likely career post-Amtrak is the scrappers torch, so there is nothing to be gained by keeping them in running order.


----------



## Amtrak172

west point said:


> HHPs already renumbered 680 - 694. It may be the lease requires them to demonstrate that they are still roaadwoorthy every so often. Don't make too much of it. Amtrak would rather use AEM-7 ACs if necessary..


That's exactly what I was thinking when I heard about this.


----------



## west point

maybe sour grapes ?


----------



## Thirdrail7

The goal is to have all ACS-64s up and running by early Spring. I believe the AEM-7s ACs will be stored prior to that date as we are down to 17. I suspect you will see a lease buyout for the HHP-8s but until then, they must maintained accordingly..


----------



## Triley

Bob Dylan said:


> Funny that my old zip code had 666 @ the end, and some folks seemed uncomfortable, including call center reps, when I would tell them my zip code!
> 
> Other funny number phobias are the old #13 jinx, lots of hotels don't have a 13th Floor, no #13 Rooms and in Casinos there were no #13 tables, but #13 was on the Roulette table and wheel! ( Oh those French!)


I want to have a talk with CSX. I don't remember quite what town it is in, but it's in between WAS and RVR. There is a CSX defective equipment detector which announces it's at milepost 66.6. I'm not that superstitious, but I thought it was weird. Why not round it down to 66.5, or just leave it at 66? Talked to one of the conductor crews last week, and they said they thought the same thing. Oddly enough, it was train 67 I was working, which returns as, of course, 66.


----------



## Eric S

PRR 60 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to say that when Amtrak operated trains to Atlantic City they briefly had one numbered 666. But I'd have check old timetables to make sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak still has train #666. Weekend Keystone leaving Harrisburg at 11:20am, arriving New York at 2:57pm.
Click to expand...

Ha! Shows that I should have just checked the timetable before commenting. Oops.


----------



## Ryan

Maybe one day ACS-64 #666 can pull train 666 around.


----------



## Agent

Here's a report that tenth-to-last ACS-64 AMTK 660 was supposed to be picked up from the factory this morning. Expected to leave on the _California Zephyr_ Saturday.

Meanwhile, at Amtrak Headquarters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH1biQdyiQI


----------



## edjbox

Heard something about acs64 frame issues with welds cracking...can someone verify or not?


----------



## Acela150

Where'd you hear that?


----------



## Ryan

Facebook. Showed a picture of an inspection hole cut on a unit to check. Only an issue on some.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(03) was just sixteen minutes late this morning when it came through the countryside east of Batavia, Iowa with AMTK 660 in what might the last time an ACS-64 is coupled to a heritage baggage car. I believe this one was AMTK 1702, which hasn't even been updated from the Phase IV scheme. This _California Zephyr_ was running on the left track to pass the freight train seen in the background.


----------



## Agent

I've been told there is an ACS-64 heading east now on Amtrak #6(17).


----------



## Thirdrail7

It should be the 661.


----------



## Agent

Yes, it was AMTK 661. It was just seven minutes late when the _California Zephyr_ left Ottumwa, Iowa_. _It went through the yard passing one locomotive moving cars around and another locomotive that was on top of a flatcar. That one is on its way to the museum in Eldon, Iowa.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 662 has been reported going east on Amtrak #6(24) today.


----------



## Andrew

How many have been delivered to Amtrak, and how many are in revenue service?


----------



## Fan Railer

Andrew said:


> How many have been delivered to Amtrak, and how many are in revenue service?


661 should be on property by now (if not then 660 is most definitely on property). Based on the testing schedule, 651 should be the highest unit in revenue (again, give or take).


----------



## Triley

Fan Railer said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many have been delivered to Amtrak, and how many are in revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> 661 should be on property by now (if not then 660 is most definitely on property). Based on the testing schedule, 651 should be the highest unit in revenue (again, give or take).
Click to expand...

And 600 is obviously out of service.


----------



## Acela150

Triley said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many have been delivered to Amtrak, and how many are in revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> 661 should be on property by now (if not then 660 is most definitely on property). Based on the testing schedule, 651 should be the highest unit in revenue (again, give or take).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And 600 is obviously out of service.
Click to expand...

600 is alive and well. I think you mean 601.


----------



## Amtrak172

Triley said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many have been delivered to Amtrak, and how many are in revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> 661 should be on property by now (if not then 660 is most definitely on property). Based on the testing schedule, 651 should be the highest unit in revenue (again, give or take).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And 600 is obviously out of service.
Click to expand...

You mean 601? 600 is in service


----------



## Triley

Acela150 said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many have been delivered to Amtrak, and how many are in revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> 661 should be on property by now (if not then 660 is most definitely on property). Based on the testing schedule, 651 should be the highest unit in revenue (again, give or take).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And 600 is obviously out of service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 600 is alive and well. I think you mean 601.
Click to expand...




Amtrak172 said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many have been delivered to Amtrak, and how many are in revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> 661 should be on property by now (if not then 660 is most definitely on property). Based on the testing schedule, 651 should be the highest unit in revenue (again, give or take).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And 600 is obviously out of service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You mean 601? 600 is in service
Click to expand...

Double corrected.  Yup, 601 is what I meant. I should've caught myself.  I know the David L Gunn branded 600 is in service, because I've worked several trains led by it.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 662 came through Agency, Iowa today on an eleven-minute-late Amtrak #6(24). Just don't blink when the _California Zephyr_ goes by if you watch the video or you'll probably miss it.


----------



## Fan Railer

I believe 628 is still out from its grade crossing incident in Kingston a few months ago...


----------



## Thirdrail7

Fan Railer said:


> I believe 628 is still out from its grade crossing incident in Kingston a few months ago...


It was the 629, not the 628.


----------



## Triley

Saw 655 this morning on a Regional in from Boston or N.Y..


----------



## Fan Railer

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Fan Railer

Triley said:


> Saw 655 this morning on a Regional in from Boston or N.Y..


655 is still testing, so it would not have been on a Regional train.


----------



## Triley

Fan Railer said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 655 this morning on a Regional in from Boston or N.Y..
> 
> 
> 
> 655 is still testing, so it would not have been on a Regional train.
Click to expand...

It was either 655 or 654. But one of them was certainly sitting in WAS this morning when I walked in. Track 14.


----------



## Thirdrail7

663 is preparing for departure.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 663 left the factory on Friday.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 663 arrived in Ottumwa, Iowa this morning on Amtrak #6(07). The same _California Zephyr_ that was annulled there because of a BNSF derailment up the line.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Enjoy these moves while you can. They will end soon, unless SEPTA uses Amtrak to deliver their units.


----------



## Agent

Thirdrail7 said:


> Enjoy these moves while you can. They will end soon, unless SEPTA uses Amtrak to deliver their units.


That's what I'm doing. Took the time to get a close look at 663 while the _Zephyr_ was stuck at the station. That's the builder's plate at the 3:37 mark, right? I've never seen one before.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

its plate for truck .


----------



## Agent

Dutchrailnut said:


> its plate for truck .


So the locomotive has a builder's plate and each of its trucks have one too? Didn't know that.

Anyway, YouTube user Michael DeMarco uploaded a couple videos today of Amtrak #5(09) heading west with AMTK 663. The first one is this _California Zephyr_ exiting the Moffat Tunnel at Winter Park and the second is at the station in Fraser, Colorado.


----------



## Agent

Apparently, today SEPTA formally awarded Siemens the contract to build Sprinters for them. I don't know if there's any actual new information in this Railway Gazette article, but I don't remember seeing the picture before.

Edit: No wait, it's the same picture Mr. afigg posted a link to back in June.


----------



## west point

Anyone know where 663 is now since it reversed direction ?


----------



## Acela150

Lost in translation..


----------



## Agent

west point said:


> Anyone know where 663 is now since it reversed direction ?


It arrived back in California on Wednesday night, as shown in this video from California Zephyr Productions. It should have left Emeryville (again) today on Amtrak #6.


----------



## afigg

Thirdrail7 said:


> Enjoy these moves while you can. They will end soon, unless SEPTA uses Amtrak to deliver their units.


The SEPTA ACS-64s won't ship until 2018, so even if they get sent east on the CZ, there will be long gap in ACS-64 deliveries once the 70th Amtrak unit ships. However, there will be Charger diesel locomotives getting sent to IL for the Mid-west trains starting sometime in 2016 along with one or more locomotives going to Pueblo for testing. It is possible that Amtrak will move the Midwest and Pueblo bound Chargers on the LD trains, although the locomotives are being brought by the states, not Amtrak. Of course, if the CZ is used to move new Chargers to CHI, that will be in a Charger thread, not here.


----------



## Agent

I caught Amtrak #6(12) with AMTK 663 running on time east of Chillicothe, Iowa near the Des Moines River this morning. This time 663 made it past Ottumwa.


----------



## Amtrak172

Any news on 664?


----------



## Acela150

Probably waiting on some Mods to be done at Amtrak before shipping it out east. Just a guess though.


----------



## jis

There is a bunch of Chargers and passenger cars that will move to Florida for AAF too starting this coming year.


----------



## neroden

I would expect Amtrak to move Chargers for the Midwest from Sacramento to Chicago on the California Zephyr -- it wouldn't really make sense to do it any other way, would it? It's even simpler than the Sprinter moves: the Chargers can move directly into the Amtrak Chicago yards from where they will be deployed. I'd expect the Pacific NW and Pacific Surfliner Chargers to move on the Coast Starlight, as well.

AAF seems much more likely to move their locomotives by freight rather than Amtrak, unless Amtrak makes them a great offer; Amtrak would be a convoluted routing for them (Sacramento-Chicago-DC-Jacksonville, I guess). I suppose AAF might move their passenger cars by Amtrak, but it still seems like a freight routing might be better for them.


----------



## Fan Railer

657 testing between PHL and NYP 12/29/15:


----------



## Agent

A post that's currently at the bottom of this page says AMTK 664 could now be "en route from California."


----------



## Triley

Saw 568 sitting in South Station with two cafes on Wednesday.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I



Agent said:


> A post that's currently at the bottom of this page says AMTK 664 could now be "en route from California."


It is indeed. Third time is the charm.



Triley said:


> Saw 568 sitting in South Station with two cafes on Wednesday.


What is the 568?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 568 sitting in South Station with two cafes on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the 568?
Click to expand...

A typo?


----------



## Triley

AmtrakBlue said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 568 sitting in South Station with two cafes on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the 568?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A typo?
Click to expand...

Yuuup. You know I looked twice at the number when I posted it, and still didn't catch it?

Or, I had some fantasy dream. Take your pick!


----------



## jis

I am waiting for 666 and the inevitable irrational discussion that might follow.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> I am waiting for 666 and the inevitable irrational discussion that might follow.


Better yet - when it pulls the Keystone 666. Good thing 666 doesn't run on Fridays (the 13th). h34r:


----------



## Triley

Also a good thing trackage in Virginia isn't electrified, and it would have to run through a CSX defect detector at mikepost 66.6, between RVM and WBG I believe.


----------



## Thirdrail7

All right, math scholars. I thought this was covered, but we'll do it again. Amtrak ordered 70 units, which are numbered 600-670. If a unit of each number was delivered to Amtrak, that would indicate a total of 71 units.

So, guess which unit number is left out of the sequence?


----------



## jis

As I was saying - irrationality rules


----------



## Ziv

TR, you do realize your post is #1666? I would be careful...

LOL!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ziv said:


> TR, you do realize your post is #1666? I would be careful...
> 
> LOL!


Good catch!


----------



## andersone

and I thought I had a rough life


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(09) with AMTK 664 came into Ottumwa, Iowa this morning fifty-two minutes late.



What kind of trouble did they have sending it out?


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> TR, you do realize your post is #1666? I would be careful...
> 
> LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> Good catch!
Click to expand...

That figures! :blink: I usually seem to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.



Agent said:


> Amtrak #6(09) with AMTK 664 came into Ottumwa, Iowa this morning fifty-two minutes late.
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I
> 
> 
> 
> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> A post that's currently at the bottom of this page says AMTK 664 could now be "en route from California."
> 
> 
> 
> It is indeed. Third time is the charm.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What kind of trouble did they have sending it out?
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% sure but there were a few false starts. In any event, 665 is getting underway.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #6(26) has been reported to be taking 665 east now.


----------



## Fan Railer

665 spotted in Chicago.


----------



## TylerP42

Fan Railer said:


> 665 spotted in Chicago.


I can confirm, I saw it with my own eyes today.


----------



## neroden

So that means only 667, 668, 669, 670 to go? Geez. Siemens is pretty efficient.

It seems a little odd to me that the first SEPTA cars aren't scheduled to be delivered until 2018. Shut down the whole production line and then start it back up again for only 13 locomotives? If I were Siemens I'd probably be trying to produce the SEPTA locos immediately after the Amtrak locos...


----------



## Agent

I saw Amtrak #6(26) with AMTK 665 in Ottumwa, Iowa this morning. It happened to have AMTK 189 with the _Big Game Train_ decals on its side. Also, the sightseer lounge had a _Big Game Train _sign in a lower-level window on each side. This _California Zephyr_ was just under an hour late into Ottumwa. It was running on time, but it was delayed by a derailment just west of Chillicothe, Iowa. Fortunately, the mainline wasn't blocked, but #6 still had to be "walked by" the site as they were picking things up.

#6 arriving at Ottumwa Depot with a nice horn show:


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> So that means only 667, 668, 669, 670 to go? Geez. Siemens is pretty efficient.
> 
> It seems a little odd to me that the first SEPTA cars aren't scheduled to be delivered until 2018. Shut down the whole production line and then start it back up again for only 13 locomotives? If I were Siemens I'd probably be trying to produce the SEPTA locos immediately after the Amtrak locos...


Siemens has Charger diesel locomotives to deliver that are being paid for with stimulus money, so some portion of the 66 Chargers ordered by the states presumably have to be completed by September, 2017. They have to be built next after the ACS-64s. And Brightline/AAF wants Chargers in time for its start of service plans as well.
An issue for the SEPTA electrics may be the supply chain for the components unique to the ACS-64s, Siemens has to order components for 13 more electric locomotive and some are probably long lead time items. So SEPTA will have to wait in line.

Now we wait for #667 to get shipped east, so we can debate the finer points of skipping #666 in the numbering sequence, assuming that is what is going to happen.


----------



## Acela150

A reliable source says no Devil Spawn..

As far as Septic goes.. They waited to long, like they've done for 50 years. We are the last public transit system in the U.S. to have tokens and transfers still in use.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So that means only 667, 668, 669, 670 to go? Geez. Siemens is pretty efficient.
> 
> It seems a little odd to me that the first SEPTA cars aren't scheduled to be delivered until 2018. Shut down the whole production line and then start it back up again for only 13 locomotives? If I were Siemens I'd probably be trying to produce the SEPTA locos immediately after the Amtrak locos...
> 
> 
> 
> Siemens has Charger diesel locomotives to deliver that are being paid for with stimulus money, so some portion of the 66 Chargers ordered by the states presumably have to be completed by September, 2017. They have to be built next after the ACS-64s. And Brightline/AAF wants Chargers in time for its start of service plans as well.
Click to expand...

Right. That probably keeps the carshell line going.



> An issue for the SEPTA electrics may be the supply chain for the components unique to the ACS-64s, Siemens has to order components for 13 more electric locomotive and some are probably long lead time items.


Ah, that makes sense.


----------



## neroden

Acela150 said:


> We are the last public transit system in the U.S. to have tokens and transfers still in use.


Yeah, I picked up a token last time I was there as a souvenir of that.


----------



## Fan Railer

SEPTA also lags in terms of fare pricing (for commuter rail at least), not that I'm complaining 

I honestly think that the last four units are complete at this point; there was a good long chunk of time between 663's delivery and 664, although I don't know how much of that time was considered holiday hiatus.


----------



## Thirdrail7

afigg said:


> Now we wait for #667 to get shipped east, so we can debate the finer points of skipping #666 in the numbering sequence, assuming that is what is going to happen.





Acela150 said:


> A reliable source says no Devil Spawn..



Who needs a reliable source? Basic math dictates what will happen. There were 70 units ordered, numbered 600-670. If a unit is shipped with each of those numbers, that would total 71 units. Now, we've already witnessed 600-665 being shipped. Which number do you think is going the be left out? Clearly it isn't the 670. :blink:


----------



## Triley

Thirdrail7 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we wait for #667 to get shipped east, so we can debate the finer points of skipping #666 in the numbering sequence, assuming that is what is going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A reliable source says no Devil Spawn..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who needs a reliable source? Basic math dictates what will happen. There were 70 units ordered, numbered 600-670. If a unit is shipped with each of those numbers, that would total 71 units. Now, we've already witnessed 600-665 being shipped. Which number do you think is going the be left out? Clearly it isn't the 670. :blink:
Click to expand...

It amazes me how many places I have seen this discussion, and how people can't figure this out! lol


----------



## A Voice

Several years from now, on a passenger rail discussion board somewhere, there will be a thread and conspiracy theories about the "missing" locomotive, and why Siemens built #666 but failed to ever deliver it to Amtrak.....


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> =
> 
> Who needs a reliable source? Basic math dictates what will happen. There were 70 units ordered, numbered 600-670. If a unit is shipped with each of those numbers, that would total 71 units. Now, we've already witnessed 600-665 being shipped. Which number do you think is going the be left out? Clearly it isn't the 670. :blink:


Maybe I missed it, but I hadn't seen (other than you mentioning it before) that the last unit was going to be the 670 and not the 669.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

neroden said:


> So that means only 667, 668, 669, 670 to go? Geez. Siemens is pretty efficient.
> 
> It seems a little odd to me that the first SEPTA cars aren't scheduled to be delivered until 2018. Shut down the whole production line and then start it back up again for only 13 locomotives? If I were Siemens I'd probably be trying to produce the SEPTA locos immediately after the Amtrak locos...


Either that or 666, 667, 668, and 669 to go.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So that means only 667, 668, 669, 670 to go? Geez. Siemens is pretty efficient.
> 
> It seems a little odd to me that the first SEPTA cars aren't scheduled to be delivered until 2018. Shut down the whole production line and then start it back up again for only 13 locomotives? If I were Siemens I'd probably be trying to produce the SEPTA locos immediately after the Amtrak locos...
> 
> 
> 
> Either that or 666, 667, 668, and 669 to go.
Click to expand...

Obviously you've missed the posts where there will be a 670, therefore one of the other numbers will be skipped. Guess which one.


----------



## PRR 60

Ryan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> =
> 
> Who needs a reliable source? Basic math dictates what will happen. There were 70 units ordered, numbered 600-670. If a unit is shipped with each of those numbers, that would total 71 units. Now, we've already witnessed 600-665 being shipped. Which number do you think is going the be left out? Clearly it isn't the 670. :blink:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but I hadn't seen (other than you mentioning it before) that the last unit was going to be the 670 and not the 669.
Click to expand...

The source for the Amtrak roster at On Track On Line, who works with Amtrak, has stated that the 70 ACS-64 units will be numbered 600 to 670. When I initially questioned him about 71 numbers for 70 units, he said that the start and end number were correct, and that the number of units was also correct. I filled in the rest of the puzzle.


----------



## TylerP42

665 is on its way to Washington on tonight's 30 Capitol Limited.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now we wait for #667 to get shipped east, so we can debate the finer points of skipping #666 in the numbering sequence, assuming that is what is going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A reliable source says no Devil Spawn..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who needs a reliable source? Basic math dictates what will happen. There were 70 units ordered, numbered 600-670. If a unit is shipped with each of those numbers, that would total 71 units. Now, we've already witnessed 600-665 being shipped. Which number do you think is going the be left out? Clearly it isn't the 670. :blink:
Click to expand...

Who? The people that constantly say... "OMG will their be a 666"!!?? I'm one of them folks who just doesn't care.. Not one bit of me cares. Their is a train 666, which I'm sure the Amish avoid considering it goes through Amish Country.

OTOH, how does math work??


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

AmtrakBlue said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So that means only 667, 668, 669, 670 to go? Geez. Siemens is pretty efficient.
> 
> It seems a little odd to me that the first SEPTA cars aren't scheduled to be delivered until 2018. Shut down the whole production line and then start it back up again for only 13 locomotives? If I were Siemens I'd probably be trying to produce the SEPTA locos immediately after the Amtrak locos...
> 
> 
> 
> Either that or 666, 667, 668, and 669 to go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously you've missed the posts where there will be a 670, therefore one of the other numbers will be skipped. Guess which one.
Click to expand...

Why the heck would they skip 666?


----------



## Ryan

Silly superstitious people.


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So that means only 667, 668, 669, 670 to go? Geez. Siemens is pretty efficient.
> 
> It seems a little odd to me that the first SEPTA cars aren't scheduled to be delivered until 2018. Shut down the whole production line and then start it back up again for only 13 locomotives? If I were Siemens I'd probably be trying to produce the SEPTA locos immediately after the Amtrak locos...
> 
> 
> 
> Either that or 666, 667, 668, and 669 to go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Obviously you've missed the posts where there will be a 670, therefore one of the other numbers will be skipped. Guess which one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why the heck would they skip 666?
Click to expand...

because some people believe that 666 is "the mark of the beast."


----------



## afigg

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Why the heck would they skip 666?


For the same general reason you find hotels and office buildings in the western counties with no 13th floor or skipping rooms numbered 13 (wikipedia entry on Thirteenth floors). In east and southeast Asia, the number four is avoided so buildings may have no 4th or 14th floor (Wiki entry on Tetrapohbia which has a photo of an elevator panel with no 4th, 13th, or 14th floors and a -1 floor). Of course, 666 is not the same as the fear of 4 or 13 because of its biblical context.

Fortunately, we have many other numbers we can still use.


----------



## jis

Any good UNIX geek knows that 666 means read and write access to all comers 

In case two negatives cancel each other to make positive maybe it would be OK to number something 13666? 

OK, back to ACS-64s. Has there been a final determination on what is to come of 601?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> OK, back to ACS-64s. Has there been a final determination on what is to come of 601?


*smh* :giggle:


----------



## Ryan

I heard they were going to rebuild it, renumber it 666 and put it on the road again.


----------



## CCC1007

It would make more sense to renumber it as 671


----------



## Caesar La Rock

There are locomotives out there numbered 666 that have never been involved in a major accident. Well some have been renumbered by now. People might want to stop watching The Omen if that number concerns them.


----------



## jis

Are any of them numbered 666? Or perhaps all are of class 666? LOL!


----------



## Agent

This video by YouTube user mikeygaw, posted today but taken Friday, shows AMTK 660 on a Boston-to-D.C. test run.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Ryan said:


> I heard they were going to rebuild it, renumber it 666 and put it on the road again.


Where did you hear that? And why would they renumber it?


----------



## Hal

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard they were going to rebuild it, renumber it 666 and put it on the road again.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear that? And why would they renumber it?
Click to expand...

He read it in the Book of Revelation. It is written there as clear as can be.......

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ryan

Chapter 13, even. Now that's spooky.


----------



## jis

Subsection 4, beat that!  It covers many cultures' idiosyncrasies.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Ryan said:


> Chapter 13, even. Now that's spooky.


Superstitious nonsense!


----------



## TylerP42

I believe the omission of the triple-6 number is necessary since it ensures that no one will be "offended" and Amtrak will not lose money from something stupid like that. Just like the omission of the 13th floor.


----------



## jis

Is that why Amtrak has a train numbered 666?


----------



## Hal

TylerP42 said:


> I believe the omission of the triple-6 number is necessary since it ensures that no one will be "offended" and Amtrak will not lose money from something stupid like that. Just like the omission of the 13th floor.


How would they lose money? The vast majority of passengers don't have any idea what the engine number is nor do they care. And as others have mentioned there is a train numbered 666.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Hal

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chapter 13, even. Now that's spooky.
> 
> 
> 
> Superstitious nonsense!
Click to expand...

On that we agree.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jis

Hal said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chapter 13, even. Now that's spooky.
> 
> 
> 
> Superstitious nonsense!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On that we agree.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yup. If 13 were that unlucky then the US has got to be the unluckiest country in the world, having started with 13 colonies, and till today with 13 stripes on its flag. Also the great seal of the United States has the following occurrences of the number 13:



Wikipedia said:


> On the Seal’s observe, the overhead glory bears thirteen stars. The chest shield in front of the spread eagle bears thirteen stripes (seven white and six red). In the eagle’s right talon, it holds the Olive Branch of Peace, bearing thirteen olives and thirteen olive leaves. In the eagle’s left talon, it holds the Weapons of War, consisting of thirteen arrows. In the eagle’s mouth, it holds a scroll bearing the national motto “E Pluribus Unum” (which, by coincidence, consists of thirteen letters). On the Seal’s reverse, the unfinished pyramid consists of thirteen levels.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I have taken train 666 a couple of times from HAR to PHL--it is a Keystone on the weekends, a nice midday run along a river and past farms--and nothing weird happened.


----------



## lo2e

TylerP42 said:


> I believe the omission of the triple-6 number is necessary since it ensures that no one will be "offended" and Amtrak will not lose money from something stupid like that. Just like the omission of the 13th floor.


I might not be so worried about the passengers on board, but rather those along the side of the tracks or at the station that see the locomotive pass by and say "Oh no, they're on the demon train!" - or something else rather outlandish like that...

Train 666 on the Keystone does not exactly make it obvious to those just watching it pass by that it has that number - the average non-railfan viewer has no idea what the train number is most of the time, unless its arrival is announced at a station. And anyone who is riding train number 666 has choices of other trains to ride on at other times if they are not comfortable riding 666.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

TylerP42 said:


> ... the omission of the triple-6 number is necessary since it ensures that no one will be "offended" and Amtrak will not lose money from something stupid like that.


Yes. Sadly, the current Congress includes a number of, well, nut cases if you ask me. The kind of nut cases who seem to think they get messages directly from God thru the vibrations of their dental fillings, or something. So if one of those wackos heard a voice from God saying that something was wrong with Amtrak flaunting the number *666*, well, Amtrak has enuff problems from the crazies in and out of Congress as it is.


----------



## Ryan

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I have taken train 666 a couple of times from HAR to PHL--it is a Keystone on the weekends, a nice midday run along a river and past farms--and nothing weird happened.


That's because you didn't ride it on a Friday the 13th. That's when it gets really freaky.


----------



## Karl1459

So, if they ever get to a unit numbered 777 would it be the "luckiest"?


----------



## A Voice

I realize we are just joking around here guys, and I get it, but the book of Revelation is a very serious matter. It accurately predicts events which have yet to take place, and when the beast actually does come into this world one day - be it tomorrow or hundreds of years from now - it will certainly not be a laughing matter. Kidding around is one thing (and superstition is just silly), but some people openly mock the word of God, and that crosses a line.

More pertinent for our discussions, perhaps, is found in the book of Isaiah Chapter 1 verse 6:

_In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord__ sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple_. 

No, that doesn't refer to a 'train' on tracks, of course. Still, the thought suits most of us here quite well!


----------



## jis

Karl1459 said:


> So, if they ever get to a unit numbered 777 would it be the "luckiest"?


That would be read, write and execute permission for all


----------



## jis

A Voice said:


> I realize we are just joking around here guys, and I get it, but the book of Revelation is a very serious matter. It accurately predicts events which have yet to take place, and when the beast actually does come into this world one day - be it tomorrow or hundreds of years from now - it will certainly not be a laughing matter. Kidding around is one thing (and superstition is just silly), but some people openly mock the word of God, and that crosses a line.
> 
> More pertinent for our discussions, perhaps, is found in the book of Isaiah Chapter 1 verse 6:
> 
> _In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord__ sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple_.
> 
> No, that doesn't refer to a 'train' on tracks, of course. Still, the thought suits most of us here quite well!


As George Bernard Shaw had one of the characters in his play Man and Superman say "Forgive him Rufio, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature"


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Ryan said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have taken train 666 a couple of times from HAR to PHL--it is a Keystone on the weekends, a nice midday run along a river and past farms--and nothing weird happened.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you didn't ride it on a Friday the 13th. That's when it gets really freaky.
Click to expand...

It certainly would be, Ryan, considering it doesn't run on Fridays!


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have taken train 666 a couple of times from HAR to PHL--it is a Keystone on the weekends, a nice midday run along a river and past farms--and nothing weird happened.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you didn't ride it on a Friday the 13th. That's when it gets really freaky.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It certainly would be, Ryan, considering it doesn't run on Fridays!
Click to expand...

Well at least Saturday the 13th then. In Indian mythology Saturday - the day of Saturn has some definite negative connotations


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have taken train 666 a couple of times from HAR to PHL--it is a Keystone on the weekends, a nice midday run along a river and past farms--and nothing weird happened.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because you didn't ride it on a Friday the 13th. That's when it gets really freaky.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It certainly would be, Ryan, considering it doesn't run on Fridays!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well at least Saturday the 13th then. In Indian mythology Saturday - the day of Saturn has some definite negative connotations
Click to expand...

Hey, MRD, February has a Saturday the 13th. Do you have a trip planned on the Keystone?


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Does anyone know of any reasons why the ACS-64's have LED headlights and ditch lights?

I heard that LED's can't throw a beam like Halogen lights.

Also I heard they can't generate heat to melt ice and snow off the light covers.


----------



## PerRock

The biggest reason to switch to LEDs is a cost savings. LEDs cost less to power, last longer & are less likely to break.

LEDs do put off heat, just not nearly as much as Halogens (as a standard light-bulb halogens put off one of the most). As for melting of ice, I don't really think that's much of an issue. Trains still use standard incandescent bulbs which wouldn't melt ice as much a halogen.

As for brightness, it really depends. Lenses, number of diodes, etc can make either one cast more or less light. For a headlight, LEDs have a slight advantage where they are more directional naturally so you loose less light right off the bat from castings to the side & back of the bulb/diode.

But in the end the LED lights used had to be able to meet the FRA standards; otherwise they wouldn't be used.

peter


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

I know that a majority of Amtrak's equipment will get repainted to Phase IIIb, maybe all.

But is it likely that Amtrak's ACS-64's will get repainted to Phase IIIb?


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak has said "single level long distance equipment". I'm pretty sure that the Sprinters don't qualify and they won't be repainting new motors.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Ryan said:


> Amtrak has said "single level long distance equipment". I'm pretty sure that the Sprinters don't qualify and they won't be repainting new motors.


Oh, I see.

But wait. Why are the P32AC-DM's being repainted to Phase IIIb?


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has said "single level long distance equipment". I'm pretty sure that the Sprinters don't qualify and they won't be repainting new motors.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see.
> But wait. Why are the P32AC-DM's being repainted to Phase IIIb?
Click to expand...

Simply due to New York State paying for new colors on them.


----------



## Acela150

Actually, BG has stated to quote "Not rule it out, I'm working on it".


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

CCC1007 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has said "single level long distance equipment". I'm pretty sure that the Sprinters don't qualify and they won't be repainting new motors.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see.
> But wait. Why are the P32AC-DM's being repainted to Phase IIIb?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Simply due to New York State paying for new colors on them.
Click to expand...

Oh, really?! They can afford to paint 18 locomotives, but not to do high speed rail and extending the tunnel height on the Hudson River tunnels?!


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has said "single level long distance equipment". I'm pretty sure that the Sprinters don't qualify and they won't be repainting new motors.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see.
> But wait. Why are the P32AC-DM's being repainted to Phase IIIb?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Simply due to New York State paying for new colors on them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, really?! They can afford to paint 18 locomotives, but not to do high speed rail and extending the tunnel height on the Hudson River tunnels?!
Click to expand...

Do you know how much it costs to paint locomotives? On the order of $1,000 to $10,000. These are small line item costs in the transportation department for the state of New York, not huge multimillion dollar projects, so yes they are much easier to get the money for them. It could even have come from cost savings elsewhere in their budget.


----------



## Eric S

Extending the height? Why would that be a remotely-worthwhile expenditure of funds, whether New York State or otherwise?


----------



## jis

Eric S said:


> Extending the height? Why would that be a remotely-worthwhile expenditure of funds, whether New York State or otherwise?


Exactly. Some people for unknown reason will keep beating on a stupid idea with very little return on investment. Frothing too much I suppose. 

But anyhow - trying to compare the cost of vinyl striping a locomotive vs. building tunnels and HSR shows a certain level of immaturity of thought process IMHO.


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Does anyone know of any reasons why the ACS-64's have LED headlights and ditch lights?
> 
> I heard that LED's can't throw a beam like Halogen lights.
> 
> Also I heard they can't generate heat to melt ice and snow off the light covers.


You asked the same thing on the NEC fans Facebook page and you got told the answer by multiple people. Despite your ignorance and telling everyone they were wrong. Cause you have clearly operated or have been in the cab of an ACS unit. If you want to double dip and get told the same thing. That's your issue. 
I will say it again. LED lights melt snow and ice. They provide heat. Do you know how many watts those lights are? No? Ok then please don't tell anyone you know that they don't melt the ice and snow when the clearly do.



CSXfoamer1997 said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has said "single level long distance equipment". I'm pretty sure that the Sprinters don't qualify and they won't be repainting new motors.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I see.
> But wait. Why are the P32AC-DM's being repainted to Phase IIIb?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Simply due to New York State paying for new colors on them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, really?! They can afford to paint 18 locomotives, but not to do high speed rail and extending the tunnel height on the Hudson River tunnels?!
Click to expand...

You do realize a tunnel project is billions of dollars. Not about $100k to reprint 18 units that are beat to a pulp. 
Please think logically.


----------



## Ryan

Eric S said:


> Extending the height? Why would that be a remotely-worthwhile expenditure of funds, whether New York State or otherwise?


So they can get Superliners into NYP, which will apparently bring about world peace and solve global hunger or something.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Some people are really obsessed with getting Superliners onto the Northeast Corridor and into New York Penn, for absolutely no good reason.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

MikefromCrete said:


> Some people are really obsessed with getting Superliners onto the Northeast Corridor and into New York Penn, for absolutely no good reason.


Actually, there is a pretty good reason. To increase passenger capacity. A Bilevel could carry more passengers than a single level.


----------



## CCC1007

But you would have to rebuild every high level platform to accommodate them, as the current height makes it impossible to board a superliner, it's almost three FEET to high of platforms.


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people are really obsessed with getting Superliners onto the Northeast Corridor and into New York Penn, for absolutely no good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there is a pretty good reason. To increase passenger capacity. A Bilevel could carry more passengers than a single level.
Click to expand...

Actually it is a pretty dumb reason, since there already are double decker equipment that fit through the NEC which gives the capacity advantage without spending jillions of dollars on fixing infrastructure. As a matter of fact TGV Duplexes used extensively in France would fit nicely through the NEC loading gauge. So no need to spend money on pointless vanity project and instead spend it where it is truly needed.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

raising height in tunnels is only drop in bucket, which would require new tunnels, old once are cast iron pipe segments

But every road overpass and structure from south of Newark to just east of New Haven is build for 14'6" equipment plus catenary clearance.

Amtrak could not even raise catenary voltage due to all restrictions.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

jis said:


> Actually it is a pretty dumb reason, since there already are double decker equipment that fit through the NEC which gives the capacity advantage without spending jillions of dollars on fixing infrastructure. As a matter of fact TGV Duplexes used extensively in France would fit nicely through the NEC loading gauge. So no need to spend money on pointless vanity project and instead spend it where it is truly needed.


The TGV Duplex has floor height about 30 " lower than US floor height so it would be problem on NEC.


----------



## jis

Dutchrailnut said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it is a pretty dumb reason, since there already are double decker equipment that fit through the NEC which gives the capacity advantage without spending jillions of dollars on fixing infrastructure. As a matter of fact TGV Duplexes used extensively in France would fit nicely through the NEC loading gauge. So no need to spend money on pointless vanity project and instead spend it where it is truly needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The TGV Duplex has floor height about 30 " lower than US floor height so it would be problem on NEC.
Click to expand...

Yup. Many TGVs out of the box would have a floor height problem on the NEC. They would be OK with a step for non ADA folks only. The point I was making is that the loading gauge of NEC allowing 14'6 height is plenty tall to allow two decks while interfacing with a current standard platform using a mid level for doors at each end of a height matching the platform. All that changes is the number of steps in the staircase connecting to the two levels.

Allowance has to be made with baggage stands at the end of the car to compensate for the lack of large overhead racks/bins. ADA facilities must exist at the mid level, so restrooms and wheelchair stands have to be at that level. When you are in an inherent high level platform environment, there is absolutely no other choice that works if one insists on packing as many as possible in a single car.

Of course the current loads on Amtrak trains on the NEC really do not demand the existence of bi-level cars. It is easier and cheaper to just have more single level cars.


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people are really obsessed with getting Superliners onto the Northeast Corridor and into New York Penn, for absolutely no good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there is a pretty good reason. To increase passenger capacity. A Bilevel could carry more passengers than a single level.
Click to expand...

That honestly is the stupidest reason I've heard.. On top of raising tunnels you'd have to take tracks OOS at NYP of all places to go from a high platform to low..

Yet again please think practical.


----------



## Eric S

Ryan said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Extending the height? Why would that be a remotely-worthwhile expenditure of funds, whether New York State or otherwise?
> 
> 
> 
> So they can get Superliners into NYP, which will apparently bring about world peace and solve global hunger or something.
Click to expand...

Yep. We all know the biggest problem Amtrak faces is that it cannot run Superliners into NYP. If/when that occurs, all will be well.


----------



## jis

Eric S said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Extending the height? Why would that be a remotely-worthwhile expenditure of funds, whether New York State or otherwise?
> 
> 
> 
> So they can get Superliners into NYP, which will apparently bring about world peace and solve global hunger or something.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep. We all know the biggest problem Amtrak faces is that it cannot run Superliners into NYP. If/when that occurs, all will be well.
Click to expand...

It will even reverse Global Warming and immediately fund Amtrak to take over all the freight railroads in one fell swoop. A new Department of Amtrak will be created at the Federal Government with its own Secretary of Amtrak, and we will all live happily ever after foaming even more frothily all over.


----------



## west point

Only today's pre-teeners might see superliners on the NEC. That of course if SL-5s have a high level boarding area at one end, east river tunnels 5 &6 built, Harold underpass built to SL clearances, Penn south built, Gateway tunnels & other projects to Newark Penn, Newark Penn clearances fixed, 30 St clearances fixed, BAL clearances and B&P tunnels built and any other clearances, WASH US clearances.. Also probably 60 Hz CAT. Not much ? Final kicker -- the present North river tunnels can never be used for SLs

Easier will be lengthening trains first. The present layout of BOS will not allow the present 9 car length to expand beyond 11 cars so that will be a limit. As well winter servicing bays for that length will need to find a spot to be built. But NYP - WASH can get longer lengths without much work. ( relative ) to meet an 18 car goal ( ACS-64s planned capacity ). That car need of course will require many V-2 or V-3 coaches to be built to meet capacity needs.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Superliners, huh? BTW, NY isn't financing the paint job on all of the P32s at one time. It will take a few years. That being said:


----------



## Agent

Regarding the topic of ACS-64s (Wait, that's not the guy that kept saying, "Stay on target. Stay on target."  ) 

Anyway, this video from February 4 by YouTube user The [Transport Net] shows AMTK 661 leading a test train in Old Greenwich, Connecticut.


----------



## Fan Railer

Any news on the delivery end?


----------



## Fan Railer

Earlier today at N. Elizabeth:


----------



## Ziv

What the h***!? That ACS-64 was just 4 seconds behind the commuter rail train! Is that "photoshopped"? Did that test train actually run just seconds behind a commuter? It looks like the commuter is just going by at 24 seconds and you can see the ACS-64's lights several hundred yards down track and it zips by at 28 seconds. I have never seen any trains running...

Oh. Never mind. They were on different tracks.

LOL! I thought they were on the same track the first time I watched. That is a very cool video.



Fan Railer said:


> Earlier today at N. Elizabeth:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ziv said:


> What the h***!? That ACS-64 was just 4 seconds behind the commuter rail train! Is that "photoshopped"? Did that test train actually run just seconds behind a commuter? It looks like the commuter is just going by at 24 seconds and you can see the ACS-64's lights several hundred yards down track and it zips by at 28 seconds. I have never seen any trains running...
> 
> Oh. Never mind. They were on different tracks.
> 
> LOL! I thought they were on the same track the first time I watched. That is a very cool video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier today at N. Elizabeth:


I was going to say that on the NEC there are places where there 3 or more tracks. Everywhere (on the NEC), as far as I know, have at least two tracks. Amtrak is always passing the commuter trains.


----------



## Ziv

AmtrakBlue, I am from Montana. Most of the track where I am most familiar was single tracked when I left in 1982. I imagine a lot of it (the Hi Line) is double tracked now due to the coal and oil shipments but I still don't "think" multiple tracks when I look at railroads.

So when I saw that video, I thought the ACS-64 was drafting on that commuter rail train like a Nascar driver.

I am starting to like the look of the ACS-64 more and more. The first time I saw it, it looked kind of plain. But seeing them at speed makes me like them a lot more. I hope they will be leading Amtrak to record ridership in the years to come!


----------



## jis

Ziv, look carefully at which catenary the pantograph is touching for each train, and it will become obvious that the commuter train is on the outer track farthest from the camera and the special is on the inner track next to the outer track, closer to the camera.

That section through North Elizabeth station has four tracks, the two tracks closest to the camera are unoccupied and typically operating in the opposite direction. It is probably one of the heaviest used four track sections in the country.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ziv said:


> AmtrakBlue, I am from Montana. Most of the track where I am most familiar was single tracked when I left in 1982. I imagine a lot of it (the Hi Line) is double tracked now due to the coal and oil shipments but I still don't "think" multiple tracks when I look at railroads.
> 
> So when I saw that video, I thought the ACS-64 was drafting on that commuter rail train like a Nascar driver.
> 
> I am starting to like the look of the ACS-64 more and more. The first time I saw it, it looked kind of plain. But seeing them at speed makes me like them a lot more. I hope they will be leading Amtrak to record ridership in the years to come!


I understand. I need to edit my post as I meant by "everywhere" was everywhere on the NEC.


----------



## warrenwarner

70 new ACS-64 electric locomotives were ordered from Siemens in 2010 for use on the NEC. Does anyone know how many have been delivered so far? any sightings? What does is look like?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

664 is the latest on the NEC, I believe. I don't think it's in revenue service yet.


----------



## CCC1007

There are 4 left to be delivered, and about 60 are in service. They have made the older locomotives almost entirely a thing of the past.


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> 664 is the latest on the NEC, I believe. I don't think it's in revenue service yet.


I believe 664 is going to Septic for their review.


----------



## A Voice

Acela150 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 664 is the latest on the NEC, I believe. I don't think it's in revenue service yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe 664 is going to Septic for their review.
Click to expand...

Septa?


----------



## Thirdrail7

A Voice said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 664 is the latest on the NEC, I believe. I don't think it's in revenue service yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe 664 is going to Septic for their review.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Septa?
Click to expand...

665 is the highest number on the east coast and 660 is the highest in revenue service.

SEPTA is buying thirteen units so they are borrowing the 664 for a week or two. It is similar to NJT borrowing a MARC AEM-7 to see how they behaved before ordering their ALP-44s.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

warrenwarner said:


> 70 new ACS-64 electric locomotives were ordered from Siemens in 2010 for use on the NEC. Does anyone know how many have been delivered so far? any sightings? What does is look like?


This thread has all the info you asked for. Like this post to two weeks old.



> TylerP42 Posted 31 January 2016 - 11:17





> 665 is on its way to Washington on tonight's 30 Capitol Limited.


Plenty of pix of them around. If you are allergic to looking for the info in this thread, go to Google Images.


Pls don't ask the obvious when you can scroll a thread and find simple stuff for yourself. You might annoy the curmudgeons hereabouts.


----------



## Ryan

He was unlikely aware of the thread, he started a new one and had his question merged in.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ryan said:


> He was unlikely aware of the thread, he started a new one and had his question merged in.


You are too kind.

He was unaware of the thread because he was too lazy to look for it. It was a live topic. If it wasn't listed on the first page, it was on the second.

But yes, I am feeling curmudgeonly this afternoon.


----------



## Thirdrail7

WoodyinNYC said:


> He was unaware of the thread because he was too lazy to look for it. It was a live topic. If it wasn't listed on the first page, it was on the second.
> But yes, I am feeling curmudgeonly this afternoon.









Woody, you are one of the most genial members of the boards I'm involved in (as long as you're not talking about Congress) so you're entitled to let it out every now and then. 

I wish people would search a little more. Perhaps this board needs a tagging system or something.


----------



## warrenwarner

WoodyinNYC said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was unlikely aware of the thread, he started a new one and had his question merged in.
> 
> 
> 
> You are too kind.
> 
> He was unaware of the thread because he was too lazy to look for it. It was a live topic. If it wasn't listed on the first page, it was on the second.
> 
> But yes, I am feeling curmudgeonly this afternoon.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your help. Please do not name call. We are not lazy, but we are very new to using this site. I'm not a train enthusiast myself, but I work as an aide to my friend Warren who is visually impaired. We are both slowly getting the hang of using this forum and we love it! So much information, it's overwhelming!


----------



## sitzplatz17

warrenwarner said:


> 70 new ACS-64 electric locomotives were ordered from Siemens in 2010 for use on the NEC. Does anyone know how many have been delivered so far? any sightings? What does is look like?


Over 60 have been delivered and there are plenty of sightings. I see one at least every day. This morning I saw three. A quick Google search will provide you thousands of images.


----------



## warrenwarner

Will these new locomotives help to improve rider ship on the NEC?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

warrenwarner said:


> Will these new locomotives help to improve rider ship on the NEC?


They will be more reliable, with fewer breakdowns en route. So the On Time Performance will improve. Good OTP pleases riders and keeps them coming back. Good word of mouth helps bring new riders.

More reliable locomotives will also help operations. If an old locomotive konks out on the NEC, That train is delayed, of course. But it's worse if coming behind it is an Acela full of riders paying top dollar for a fast trip. And one konked out engine can mess up several trains because the NEC is so congested with Acelas, Regionals, Keystones for part of the way, long distance trains like the Star and Meteor to Miami, and a large number of commuter trains up and down the line.

However, the larger impact could be on the cost side, as new equipment replaces old equipment and repairs are not needed so often. And standardization saves money (lower spare parts inventory, simpler training for maintenance workers, etc) as the ACS-64s replace three different types of locomotives.

They will be cheaper by capturing energy with regenerative braking, putting that electricity back into the system that powers all the trains.

So the ACS-64s are win win win. Amtrak figured that the new locomotives will "pay for themselves" in 6 years with the various savings. It got a 30-year government loan to pay for buying the ACS-64s, so it will have the use of most of that money long after the locomotives have "paid for themselves."


----------



## west point

As some understand the costs of the ACS-64s included a fairly broad warranty that includes many items that Amtrak will not have to pay for that they did with the just retired units. Plus with more active motors units that need just minor work can be replaced with units without any problems.


----------



## Fan Railer

Thirdrail7 said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 664 is the latest on the NEC, I believe. I don't think it's in revenue service yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe 664 is going to Septic for their review.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Septa?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 665 is the highest number on the east coast and 660 is the highest in revenue service.
> 
> SEPTA is buying thirteen units so they are borrowing the 664 for a week or two. It is similar to NJT borrowing a MARC AEM-7 to see how they behaved before ordering their ALP-44s.
Click to expand...

Any time frame (as in a specific week or two) on the said borrowing of 664? And is it just going to be in test service, or are they going to be audacious enough to use it on a revenue train or two? Trying to gauge whether or not it would be worth it to head down to SEPTIC territory to catch it in action lol.


----------



## Acela150

No clue.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Fan Railer said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 664 is the latest on the NEC, I believe. I don't think it's in revenue service yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe 664 is going to Septic for their review.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Septa?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 665 is the highest number on the east coast and 660 is the highest in revenue service.
> 
> SEPTA is buying thirteen units so they are borrowing the 664 for a week or two. It is similar to NJT borrowing a MARC AEM-7 to see how they behaved before ordering their ALP-44s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any time frame (as in a specific week or two) on the said borrowing of 664? And is it just going to be in test service, or are they going to be audacious enough to use it on a revenue train or two? Trying to gauge whether or not it would be worth it to head down to SEPTIC territory to catch it in action lol.
Click to expand...

If I was looking for a specific date, I would only be able to celebrate the hand off every four years. I have no idea what Septic is going to do with it, but it'll be delivered to






h34r:


----------



## Fan Railer

HAHAHAHA thanks.


----------



## lo2e

WoodyinNYC said:


> And standardization saves money (lower spare parts inventory, simpler training for maintenance workers, etc) as the ACS-64s replace three different types of locomotives.


AEM-7, HHP-8, and what else? I thought all other electrics except P32s and Acelas were extinct.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 664 is the latest on the NEC, I believe. I don't think it's in revenue service yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe 664 is going to Septic for their review.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Septa?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 665 is the highest number on the east coast and 660 is the highest in revenue service.
> 
> SEPTA is buying thirteen units so they are borrowing the 664 for a week or two. It is similar to NJT borrowing a MARC AEM-7 to see how they behaved before ordering their ALP-44s.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any time frame (as in a specific week or two) on the said borrowing of 664? And is it just going to be in test service, or are they going to be audacious enough to use it on a revenue train or two? Trying to gauge whether or not it would be worth it to head down to SEPTIC territory to catch it in action lol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If I was looking for a specific date, I would only be able to celebrate the hand off every four years. I have no idea what Septic is going to do with it, but it'll be delivered to
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> h34r:
Click to expand...

Party Time!! Excellence!!!


----------



## afigg

lo2e said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> And standardization saves money (lower spare parts inventory, simpler training for maintenance workers, etc) as the ACS-64s replace three different types of locomotives.
> 
> 
> 
> AEM-7, HHP-8, and what else? I thought all other electrics except P32s and Acelas were extinct.
Click to expand...

The AEM-7s can be regarded as two types. The original DC units that were not upgraded and the remanufactured (remans for short) AC units which resulted in differences in power systems, maintenance, and parts. So the ACS-64s are consolidating the non-Acela NEC electrics to one type, saving on parts, training, and supposedly on maintenance man-hours. And hopefully, improving overall reliability compared to the HHP-8s and aging AEM-7s.


----------



## afigg

In the FY16 budget and five year financial plan, it states that it is anticipated that the final unit will be delivered by the end of April 2016. There has been a marked slowdown in deliveries since November with #665 the last unit shipped east. Could be due to Siemens shifting resources to building the Charger diesel locomotives.

The annual debt service costs for the $562.9 million RRIF loan for the ACS-64 order levels out to $36.6 million a year starting in FY2016 in the five year financial plan. it is $36.6 million a year for principal plus interest for FY18, FY19, FY20 and presumably for the next circa 20 years. That is the debt cost that will be charged to the NEC Regionals, Keystones, and LD trains on the NEC for the next several decades.


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> In the FY16 budget and five year financial plan, it states that it is anticipated that the final unit will be delivered by the end of April 2016. There has been a marked slowdown in deliveries since November with #665 the last unit shipped east. Could be due to Siemens shifting resources to building the Charger diesel locomotives.
> 
> The annual debt service costs for the $562.9 million RRIF loan for the ACS-64 order levels out to $36.6 million a year starting in FY2016 in the five year financial plan. it is $36.6 million a year for principal plus interest for FY18, FY19, FY20 and presumably for the next circa 20 years. That is the debt cost that will be charged to the NEC Regionals, Keystones, and LD trains on the NEC for the next several decades.


It seems that AEM-7s are down to about three units. By the time the units that are delivered but not yet comissioned enter service, Amtrak should be able to set aside all AEM-7s. All further ACS-64s on order are really just reserve for future expansion or to use as spare units in case of accidents, maintenance etc. So there being no urgent immediate need for them, it could well be that Amtrak has agreed to production going back burner in favor of the much more urgently needed Chargers.


----------



## lo2e

afigg said:


> lo2e said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> And standardization saves money (lower spare parts inventory, simpler training for maintenance workers, etc) as the ACS-64s replace three different types of locomotives.
> 
> 
> 
> AEM-7, HHP-8, and what else? I thought all other electrics except P32s and Acelas were extinct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The AEM-7s can be regarded as two types. The original DC units that were not upgraded and the remanufactured (remans for short) AC units which resulted in differences in power systems, maintenance, and parts. So the ACS-64s are consolidating the non-Acela NEC electrics to one type, saving on parts, training, and supposedly on maintenance man-hours. And hopefully, improving overall reliability compared to the HHP-8s and aging AEM-7s.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, I forgot there were really two different AEM-7s rolling around.

I'm curious what people think about "reliability" with regards to the AEM-7s. Do/did they break down a lot or require an abnormal amount of trips to the shop in order to keep running? I heard a lot about reliability problems on the HHP-8s, but not nearly as many it seems on the AEM-7s.


----------



## Fan Railer

With the AEM-7s, reliability really depended on the specific unit in question. Of course, on a whole, the AC units were more reliable than the DC units, but individually speaking, you had DC units that performed very well, and you had AC units that were crap.


----------



## neroden

cirdan said:


> It seems that AEM-7s are down to about three units. By the time the units that are delivered but not yet comissioned enter service, Amtrak should be able to set aside all AEM-7s. All further ACS-64s on order are really just reserve for future expansion or to use as spare units in case of accidents, maintenance etc. So there being no urgent immediate need for them, it could well be that Amtrak has agreed to production going back burner in favor of the much more urgently needed Chargers.


This is pure speculation. But *if true* it would be sensible cash management on Amtrak's part. The Chargers are paid for by state government and reimbursed by the federal government, *and* they have a deadline thanks to ARRA. The Sprinters have no deadline, and are paid for by Amtrak before being reimbursed by the federal government loan, and then Amtrak has to pay interest. Postponing delivery of Sprinters gives Amtrak cash flow, postponing delivery of Chargers does not.
Also, SEPTA is going to receive a bunch of Sprinters, so it's not as if the Sprinter production line can actually be shut down permanently; Siemens has to restart it for SEPTA. If (and this is still hypothetical) Amtrak asked to have its last few Sprinters delivered along with SEPTA's, this would be straightforward for Siemens and good for Amtrak's cashflow.


----------



## Fan Railer

667 is scheduled to leave Sacramento tomorrow (2/29).


----------



## MikefromCrete

So much for the speculation. Only three more to go.


----------



## Acela150

SUPER MEGA RARE!!!! Departing on a leap day!


----------



## Triley

Acela150 said:


> SUPER MEGA RARE!!!! Departing on a leap day!


Imagine if was 666 like some predicted. People would be wetting themselves!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Triley said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> SUPER MEGA RARE!!!! Departing on a leap day!
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine if was 666 like some predicted. People would be wetting themselves!
Click to expand...

Similar thought crossed my mind.


----------



## Andrew

Do these new locomotives tell the engineer the time and km/h?


----------



## Acela150

Andrew said:


> Do these new locomotives tell the engineer the time and km/h?


What is this Europe?? Time yes.. Kilometers?? Really??

For those who are interested a very reliable source has stated that 664 will be moved to Septic today.


----------



## PRR 60

Acela150 said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do these new locomotives tell the engineer the time and km/h?
> 
> 
> 
> What is this Europe?? Time yes.. Kilometers?? Really??
> 
> For those who are interested a very reliable source has stated that 664 will be moved to Septic today.
Click to expand...

You know, there are lots of very good and highly competent people who work for SEPTA. I've worked with many of them, and consider SEPTA at least the equal of Amtrak for technical ability. They don't deserve that insult over and over and over.


----------



## afigg

MikefromCrete said:


> So much for the speculation. Only three more to go.


As I noted in an above post, in the FY16 budget and five year financial plan, it states that it is anticipated that the final unit will be delivered by the end of April 2016. Since Siemens has done a pretty good job of staying on delivery schedule, we are likely to see #670 shipped east in late April which will complete the delivery stage of the contract. Then Amtrak can settle down to pay $36.6 million a year in debt service for the ACS-64s.

There is a report on rr.net that #629, which was damaged in the collision with the car in Rhode Island, has been repaired and will be returning to revenue service soon.


----------



## Acela150

PRR 60 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do these new locomotives tell the engineer the time and km/h?
> 
> 
> 
> What is this Europe?? Time yes.. Kilometers?? Really??
> 
> For those who are interested a very reliable source has stated that 664 will be moved to Septic today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You know, there are lots of very good and highly competent people who work for SEPTA. I've worked with many of them, and consider SEPTA at least the equal of Amtrak for technical ability. They don't deserve that insult over and over and over.
Click to expand...

True.. But those aren't the people working on the trains, buses, trolleys, subways, etc with the Public everyday.. Those folks are the reason they get the nickname Septic.. The employees that work with the public are a bunch of incompetent morons.. Their have been times where I try to get the bus to the city and it doesn't show up.. The bus after that shows up.


----------



## jis

Irrespective of your personal feelings about levels of competence, I think we all have a somewhat more congenial environment if gratuitous name-calling is minimized. Just IMHO of course.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Name calling isn't the best way to get your point across.


----------



## Acela150

MikefromCrete said:


> Name calling isn't the best way to get your point across.


Most of Philadelphia would disagree..

Just imagine some of the things that come out of Philadelphians mouths about Septa.. What I said is actually nice compared to others.


----------



## jis

So help me understand how calling SEPTA with a unsavory name helps you communicate that an ACS0-64 is going to SEPTA for test runs. Which part of the message "For those who are interested a very reliable source has stated that 664 will be moved to SEPTA today." would have been inadequately communicated had you not used the derogatory term for SEPTA?


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> So help me understand how calling SEPTA with a unsavory name helps you communicate that an ACS0-64 is going to SEPTA for test runs. Which part of the message "For those who are interested a very reliable source has stated that 664 will be moved to SEPTA today." would have been inadequately communicated had you not used the derogatory term for SEPTA?



Allow me. SEPTIC was a pretty common nickname that has been handed down. Most of the railroads had nicknames although as the old timers have died off, so did their usage.

It was not uncommon to hear the names SEPTIC, Joisey Twansit, Wrong Island Railroad, PATHetic, the "Shark" trains and Mafia North in the industry. I won't even go into the common name for Norfolk Southern and I've never heard about anyone complaining when someone brings up C(rash) S(pill) X(PLODE).

Let us not forget that the basic nickname for our lovely railroad was AMcrap, which operated the Pigeon, the Late for Sure Limited, the Silver Slug (and this train has apparently been renamed the Silver STARvation...which is CLASSIC  ), the Crapitol Limited (aka the Capitol Punishment) and the Auto Pain.

While I don't agree with Acela150's characterization of their employees, the nickname has been around for years. It was as common as the buffs on the boards referring to the AEM-7s as "toasters," which is a term the most railroaders never heard of.


----------



## Ryan

Huh. I always thought that it was C(rash) S(mash) X(PLODE).

Learn something new everyday.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Classic, Man!


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So help me understand how calling SEPTA with a unsavory name helps you communicate that an ACS0-64 is going to SEPTA for test runs. Which part of the message "For those who are interested a very reliable source has stated that 664 will be moved to SEPTA today." would have been inadequately communicated had you not used the derogatory term for SEPTA?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allow me. SEPTIC was a pretty common nickname that has been handed down. Most of the railroads had nicknames although as the old timers have died off, so did their usage.
> 
> It was not uncommon to hear the names SEPTIC, Joisey Twansit, Wrong Island Railroad, PATHetic, the "Shark" trains and Mafia North in the industry. I won't even go into the common name for Norfolk Southern and I've never heard about anyone complaining when someone brings up C(rash) S(pill) X(PLODE).
> 
> Let us not forget that the basic nickname for our lovely railroad was AMcrap, which operated the Pigeon, the Late for Sure Limited, the Silver Slug (and this train has apparently been renamed the Silver STARvation...which is CLASSIC  ), the Crapitol Limited (aka the Capitol Punishment) and the Auto Pain.
> 
> While I don't agree with Acela150's characterization of their employees, the nickname has been around for years. It was as common as the buffs on the boards referring to the AEM-7s as "toasters," which is a term the most railroaders never heard of.
Click to expand...

OK, so it actually helps convey nothing extra except that we are all proud members of a cabal that likes that term. Got it.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Ryan said:


> Huh. I always thought that it was C(rash) S(mash) X(PLODE).
> 
> Learn something new everyday.


Or this way, even better, C(rash) S(pill) X(plode). Because when a train crashes, it explodes when it has a fuel spill.

CSX, putting the X in eXplode! Lol


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . . how calling SEPTA with a unsavory name helps you communicate . . .?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allow me. SEPTIC was a pretty common nickname that has been handed down. . . .
> 
> It was not uncommon to hear the names SEPTIC, Joisey Twansit, Wrong Island Railroad, PATHetic, the "Shark" trains and Mafia North in the industry. I won't even go into the common name for Norfolk Southern . . .
> 
> Let us not forget that the basic nickname for our lovely railroad was AMcrap, which operated the Pigeon, the Late for Sure Limited, the Silver Slug (and this train has apparently been renamed the Silver STARvation...which is CLASSIC  ), the Crapitol Limited (aka the Capitol Punishment) and the Auto Pain.
Click to expand...

I'm suspecting that the nickname for the Norfolk Southern is not fit for a family audience like we have here. So I'll keep it clean when I add . . .

Let us not forget the _Coast Starlate._

I've learned a lot in this exchange. I'd always assumed that 'Septic' was earned, like the _Coast Starlate_, which has had severe timekeeping problems. SEPTA has suffered thru years of underfunding resulting in deteriorating performance. Under the previous (Republican) Governor, bless him, the laws were changed to direct considerably more funds to SEPTA and other transportation needs in Pennsylvania. iiuc SEPTA now is investing heavily in repairs n upgrades. Perhaps in a few years, the unsavory nickname may fade from use.

btw I'm assuming that the _Pigeon_ runs 3 days a week thru VA, WVa, KY, OH, and IN.


----------



## edjbox

I've heard a CP employee call CN "Crash National"


----------



## Hal

WoodyinNYC said:


> I'm suspecting that the nickname for the Norfolk Southern is not fit for a family audience like we have here. So I'll keep it clean when I add . . .


The nickname for Norfolk Southern which I have heard is well earned is "**** Southern". Insert the name of Hitler's politcal movement.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Anyone know if #601 is still in Wilmington? If so, how long is it even gonna take before the investigation of the Philly crash is complete?

And also, has it been determined whether #601 will be repaired with its original number, repaired and renumbered, or retired?


----------



## CCC1007

Pretty sure that it will be years before the courts release it from material evidence, as it is a key part of not only the investigation but also the lawsuits filed against Amtrak.


----------



## StriderGDM

The investigation itself may not take much longer, but the lawsuits, years. Most likely 601 can't be released until those are settled.


----------



## Triley

And then it was mentioned somewhere that the ACS-64 that was involved in a vehicle strike in Rhode Island (which was last February if I'm not mistaken) is finally going to be reentering the active roster, if it hasn't happened already. And I happened to be in the yard when they brought her back in, and from what I could tell, it wasn't heavily damaged. (Mind you I am an LSA, and was real new at the time, so I may not have been the best judge at the time.)

So, repair time and handling insurance claims definitely takes time.


----------



## Agent

I saw AMTK 667 this morning on Amtrak #6(01). The train was about three minutes late when it came into Ottumwa, Iowa.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

If there's a train #666, why skip ACS-64 #666? This makes no sense at all.

There's also a CSX AC6000CW #666.


----------



## jis

You expect sense in selective application of superstition?


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Anyone know if #601 is still in Wilmington? If so, how long is it even gonna take before the investigation of the Philly crash is complete?
> 
> And also, has it been determined whether #601 will be repaired with its original number, repaired and renumbered, or retired?





CSXfoamer1997 said:


> If there's a train #666, why skip ACS-64 #666? This makes no sense at all.
> 
> There's also a CSX AC6000CW #666.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

jis said:


> You expect sense in selective application of superstition?


Pretty much. People still go about stuff being superstitious.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Triley said:


> And then it was mentioned somewhere that the ACS-64 that was involved in a vehicle strike in Rhode Island (which was last February if I'm not mistaken) is finally going to be reentering the active roster, if it hasn't happened already. And I happened to be in the yard when they brought her back in, and from what I could tell, it wasn't heavily damaged. (Mind you I am an LSA, and was real new at the time, so I may not have been the best judge at the time.)
> 
> So, repair time and handling insurance claims definitely takes time.


It is still out of service. There were a few serious issues that needed attention. I'd be mighty surprise if you saw it in service by the end of this month.


----------



## Acela150

We talking something like Mods? Or FRA stuff?


----------



## afigg

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> If there's a train #666, why skip ACS-64 #666? This makes no sense at all.
> 
> There's also a CSX AC6000CW #666.


There is a difference between a train service numbered #666 and a locomotive with 666 written on it in big text. One, someone could freak out at the platform having seen #666 pull into the station and refuse to get onboard. Second, and likely the real reason, pictures of a locomotive numbered #666 could end up being used on crazier sites on the net for claims about Amtrak and if #666 got into an accident, its number would draw additional media attention. By skipping #666, they avoid all that stupid stuff.


----------



## neroden

So, to get back to the topic. #667 has presumably reached the east coast.

So that leaves 668, 669, 670. Anyone wanna bet on when 670 gets delivered? I'm going to bet after the first Viewliner dining car, but still in March.


----------



## cirdan

afigg said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there's a train #666, why skip ACS-64 #666? This makes no sense at all.
> 
> There's also a CSX AC6000CW #666.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a difference between a train service numbered #666 and a locomotive with 666 written on it in big text. One, someone could freak out at the platform having seen #666 pull into the station and refuse to get onboard. Second, and likely the real reason, pictures of a locomotive numbered #666 could end up being used on crazier sites on the net for claims about Amtrak and if #666 got into an accident, its number would draw additional media attention. By skipping #666, they avoid all that stupid stuff.
Click to expand...

Exactly, it's not about anybody in Amtrak being suerstiious at all. It's about anticipating media and public crazies.

You've always got to weight the costs against the benefits, and seeing the cost or penalty of skipping a number is virtually nil, it is perfectly rational to do so even for the smallest benefit.

Think of it as game theory.

Maybe a freight railroad such as CSX doesn't have to care so much about people freaking out or conspiracy theorioes being circullated, so they can afford to use the number more freely.


----------



## Fan Railer

neroden said:


> So, to get back to the topic. #667 has presumably reached the east coast.
> 
> So that leaves 668, 669, 670. Anyone wanna bet on when 670 gets delivered? I'm going to bet after the first Viewliner dining car, but still in March.


Not yet. 667 was sighted in Chicago yesterday. It will likely land in WAS tomorrow.

The delivery schedule for the final few units is drawn out. If nothing changes, 670 is scheduled to ship out of Florin on 4/29, which means it'll end up on 6 (5/1).


----------



## west point

So if 670 is on 6 / 01 may why not drop it in Denver and allow it to pull a media circus pulling a single level train to DEN airport on the just in service "A" line ?.


----------



## TylerP42

667 being moved around the yard in Chicago


----------



## KnightRail

TylerP42 said:


> 667 being moved around the yard in Chicago


Should be on the Capital tonight


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7 said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe 628 is still out from its grade crossing incident in Kingston a few months ago...
> 
> 
> 
> It was the 629, not the 628.
Click to expand...


629 is on the loose again.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Was #601 the first ACS-64 to be wrecked? Or was #628 wreck before #601?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Was #601 the first ACS-64 to be wrecked? Or was #628 wreck before #601?


Where and when was #628 wrecked?

#601 was involved in the May 2015 accident in Philly. Since this wreck had casualties, the NTSB and lawyers probably won't let it be touched for quite some time.


----------



## CCC1007

628 has not wrecked, 629 did


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

AmtrakBlue said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was #601 the first ACS-64 to be wrecked? Or was #628 wreck before #601?
> 
> 
> 
> Where and when was #628 wrecked?
> 
> #601 was involved in the May 2015 accident in Philly. Since this wreck had casualties, the NTSB and lawyers probably won't let it be touched for quite some time.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I found it was actually #629. My mistake. But anyways, was #629 wrecked before #601, or was #601 wrecked first?


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

CCC1007 said:


> 628 has not wrecked, 629 did


I'm sorry. My mistake.


----------



## keelhauled

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was #601 the first ACS-64 to be wrecked? Or was #628 wreck before #601?
> 
> 
> 
> Where and when was #628 wrecked?
> 
> #601 was involved in the May 2015 accident in Philly. Since this wreck had casualties, the NTSB and lawyers probably won't let it be touched for quite some time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry. I found it was actually #629. My mistake. But anyways, was #629 wrecked before #601, or was #601 wrecked first?
Click to expand...

I had absolutely no idea either, but then I Googled "amtrak kingston crash" for literally five seconds and found out that an Amtrak train whacked a car in Kingston on April 18. Given that 188 crashed in, well, I hope you can figure that one out, I leave it to you to make connections.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was #601 the first ACS-64 to be wrecked? Or was #628 wreck before #601?
> 
> 
> 
> Where and when was #628 wrecked?
> 
> #601 was involved in the May 2015 accident in Philly. Since this wreck had casualties, the NTSB and lawyers probably won't let it be touched for quite some time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry. I found it was actually #629. My mistake. But anyways, was #629 wrecked before #601, or was #601 wrecked first?
Click to expand...

Google "amtrak kingson ri accident". I never did my kids homework and I'm not going to do yours. I will sometimes point to where to find the answers, though.


----------



## ayezee

Give the kid a break. Yes he could easily look a lot of this up but he's excited about trains and Amtrak. There's not a lot of eighteen year olds as excited about trains as him.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

ayezee said:


> Give the kid a break. Yes he could easily look a lot of this up but he's excited about trains and Amtrak. There's not a lot of eighteen year olds as excited about trains as him.


Exactly! I'm really fascinated with trains! Ever since I was an infant! I'm so fascinated with them, that I like to do research about them! As a matter of fact, I plan to work in the railroading industry someday! And I'm trying to learn about some stuff about Amtrak from other experts on this website!


----------



## Ryan

Research consists of a lot more than asking questions and being spoon fed answers.

It's not giving the kid a break, it's teaching how to function in the real world when you actually have to put forth some effort, rather than just run around and pester your coworkers with questions.

It's obvious from the questions that you ask and the often flawed assumptions that go into them that you've done no research into the topic before letting fly with questions.

Do your homework first, and show up with well thought out questions that can't be answered by a simple google search and you'll have a much different reception.


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> ayezee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give the kid a break. Yes he could easily look a lot of this up but he's excited about trains and Amtrak. There's not a lot of eighteen year olds as excited about trains as him.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! I'm really fascinated with trains! Ever since I was an infant! I'm so fascinated with them, that I like to do research about them! As a matter of fact, I plan to work in the railroading industry someday! And I'm trying to learn about some stuff about Amtrak from other experts on this website!
Click to expand...

Just a word of gentle advice ... One very good way to carry on the research that you mention (as something that you like to do) is to get in the habit of first googling (or binging or whatever) the term or thing that puzzles you and see what comes up. Afterall, many of us who are answering your questions are doing exactly that. iI is not like we have everything sitting in our head ready to be poured out at a moment's notice or anything like that. 

BTW CSXfoamer, since you like EMD diesels, I posted something that may be of interest to you. Take a look at http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/67433-new-emd-diesels-in-india/


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

jis said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ayezee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give the kid a break. Yes he could easily look a lot of this up but he's excited about trains and Amtrak. There's not a lot of eighteen year olds as excited about trains as him.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! I'm really fascinated with trains! Ever since I was an infant! I'm so fascinated with them, that I like to do research about them! As a matter of fact, I plan to work in the railroading industry someday! And I'm trying to learn about some stuff about Amtrak from other experts on this website!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just a word of gentle advice ... One very good way to carry on the research that you mention (as something that you like to do) is to get in the habit of first googling (or binging or whatever) the term or thing that puzzles you and see what comes up. Afterall, many of us who are answering your questions are doing exactly that. iI is not like we have everything sitting in our head ready to be poured out at a moment's notice or anything like that.
> 
> BTW CSXfoamer, since you like EMD diesels, I posted something that may be of interest to you. Take a look at http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/67433-new-emd-diesels-in-india/
Click to expand...

Well, I didn't necessarily say I like EMD. I'm a fan of both GE and EMD.


----------



## Ryan

The point that Jishnu and I both made seems to have sailed over your head.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> The point that Jishnu and I both made seems to have sailed over your head.


You sound surprised..


----------



## Thirdrail7

Well, there's only one thing left to say on this matter.

Quick....before this disappears, like some of my other posts:


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Well, there's only one thing left to say on this matter.
> 
> Quick....before this disappears, like some of my other posts:


This!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ayezee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give the kid a break. Yes he could easily look a lot of this up but he's excited about trains and Amtrak. There's not a lot of eighteen year olds as excited about trains as him.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! I'm really fascinated with trains! Ever since I was an infant! I'm so fascinated with them, that I like to do research about them! As a matter of fact, I plan to work in the railroading industry someday! And I'm trying to learn about some stuff about Amtrak from other experts on this website!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just a word of gentle advice ... One very good way to carry on the research that you mention (as something that you like to do) is to get in the habit of first googling (or binging or whatever) the term or thing that puzzles you and see what comes up. Afterall, many of us who are answering your questions are doing exactly that. iI is not like we have everything sitting in our head ready to be poured out at a moment's notice or anything like that.
> 
> BTW CSXfoamer, since you like EMD diesels, I posted something that may be of interest to you. Take a look at http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/67433-new-emd-diesels-in-india/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, I didn't necessarily say I like EMD. I'm a fan of both GE and EMD.
Click to expand...

:huh: I would think being a fan of something would mean you like that something. :huh:


----------



## Fan Railer

Acela150 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point that Jishnu and I both made seems to have sailed over your head.
> 
> 
> 
> You sound surprised..
Click to expand...

You can't reason with people who are like this. Just let them carry on and ignore them.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Umm....the 664 test train is out and about today. Normally, this woulnd't phase me. However, the engine has a giant SEPTA logo on the front of it.

Can someone capture a picture of this move?


----------



## lo2e

Thirdrail7 said:


> Umm....the 664 test train is out and about today. Normally, this woulnd't phase me. However, the engine has a giant SEPTA logo on the front of it.
> 
> Can someone capture a picture of this move?


I don't have access to it right now on my work computer, but there have been pictures of it posted on the Amtrak Northeast Corridor fans Facebook page.


----------



## Ryan

Yep, Mr. Pitz is on the case.


----------



## Big Iron

Google is really very easy. Try Googling "Readers Guide to Periodical Literature" to see how the old schooler's did their research in the days before the interweb. Microfiche was our friend.


----------



## TylerP42

Thirdrail7 said:


> Umm....the 664 test train is out and about today. Normally, this woulnd't phase me. However, the engine has a giant SEPTA logo on the front of it.
> 
> Can someone capture a picture of this move?


https://m.facebook.com/groups/7860063780?view=permalink&id=10154050073968781

There's a link to it.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

TylerP42 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Umm....the 664 test train is out and about today. Normally, this woulnd't phase me. However, the engine has a giant SEPTA logo on the front of it.
> 
> Can someone capture a picture of this move?
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/groups/7860063780?view=permalink&id=10154050073968781
> 
> There's a link to it.
Click to expand...

Not everybody is on Facebook, so this may not help.


----------



## PRR 60

There's a photo at Trainorders HERE. Also not much of a help to non-Trainorders members, but at least you'll see a thumbnail.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Have any others been delivered since January or February?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Have any others been delivered since January or February?


I'm sure if there have been they would have been reported on this thread.


----------



## Thirdrail7

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Have any others been delivered since January or February?



This is an odd question....even coming from you...since you participated in the swirl regarding a unit possibly being numbered 666. Even the most cursory glance of this thread can determine how many units have been delivered since January, particularly since one is mentioned in fairly recent posts.

So, ff you wish to find the numbers, here is a theory that may help your efforts:







In the interim, no other units have made the 3000+ mile trip behind your back.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Fan Railer said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, . . . #667 has presumably reached the east coast.
> 
> So that leaves 668, 669, 670. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Not yet. 667 was sighted in Chicago yesterday. It will likely land in WAS tomorrow.
> 
> The delivery schedule for the final few units is drawn out. If nothing changes, 670 is scheduled to ship out of Florin on 4/29, which means it'll end up on 6 (5/1).
Click to expand...

Here's plenty of info, for those willing to go back two pages to Comment #1820.

Others may prefer to ignore the relevant info and post over and over, "Are we there yet?"


----------



## jis

WoodyinNYC said:


> Others may prefer to ignore the relevant info and post over and over, "Are we there yet?"


Kids tend to do that, like in the back seat of a car  We need to discover what is the right equivalent of a lollipop or a pacifier.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

jis said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Others may prefer to ignore the relevant info and post over and over, "Are we there yet?"
> 
> 
> 
> Kids tend to do that, like in the back seat of a car  We need to discover what is the right equivalent of a lollipop or a pacifier.
Click to expand...

Man, I was just asking if there have been any delivered since January or February. I knew the last deliveries I heard was up to 667. Jeez-a-ree!

And FYI, I'm not much of a kid anymore. I'm 18.


----------



## PRR 60

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Others may prefer to ignore the relevant info and post over and over, "Are we there yet?"
> 
> 
> 
> Kids tend to do that, like in the back seat of a car  We need to discover what is the right equivalent of a lollipop or a pacifier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Man, I was just asking if there have been any delivered since January or February. I knew the last deliveries I heard was up to 667. Jeez-a-ree!
> 
> And FYI, I'm not much of a kid anymore. I'm 18.
Click to expand...

All ACS-64 deliveries have been documented in this thread. Just scrolling back a few pages would answer your question. As far as I know, there have not been any stealth deliveries (picturing an ACS-64 encased in a covering that looks like a box car - done just to annoy Amtrak fans).

Posting a question about facts that have been previously posted and are easily found tends to annoy people.


----------



## Agent

YouTube user gergorygrice posted this video from Wednesday of AMTK 664 with the SEPTA sign pulling a test train in Connecticut.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Agent said:


> YouTube user gergorygrice posted this video from Wednesday of AMTK 664 with the SEPTA sign pulling a test train in Connecticut.


Nice!


----------



## Fan Railer

668 shipping out of Florin any day now (if not already).


----------



## Agent

Third-to-last AMTK 668 is reported to be heading east now on Amtrak #6(09).


----------



## Agent

I saw AMTK 668 on #6(09) at Ottumwa, Iowa this morning. The train left thirteen minutes late and on the left track. Before this _California Zephyr_ left, I heard the BNSF dispatcher tell the crew that, due to a late-running #4, they would be doing a station stop at Mendota, Illinois.


----------



## warrenwarner

Do they still use the old locomotives (AEM-7) after they have been replaced? Are they kept in a yard as backups? Are they sold to other railroads? Are they used for parts? Or do they get scrapped?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

warrenwarner said:


> Do they still use the old locomotives (AEM-7) after they have been replaced? Are they kept in a yard as backups? Are they sold to other railroads? Are they used for parts? Or do they get scrapped?


I believe all but 2 have been retired and those 2 are on loan to MARC (Maryland's transportation agency).


----------



## Fan Railer

Yes, 942 & 946 are on loan to MARC for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Amtrak172

Fan Railer said:


> Yes, 942 & 946 are on loan to MARC for the foreseeable future.


Why did MARC retire their own AEM-7's if they're using Amtrak's?


----------



## cirdan

Amtrak172 said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, 942 & 946 are on loan to MARC for the foreseeable future.
> 
> 
> 
> Why did MARC retire their own AEM-7's if they're using Amtrak's?
Click to expand...

maybe they're in better shape?


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak maintains all of them, so MARC is just along for the ride.

942/946 are pinch hitting for HHP's, the MARC AEM's have been junk for quite a long time. They were off for refurb about 5 years ago that went on and on and on. When they came back, the briefly roamed in pairs before getting parked again.


----------



## A Voice

Ryan said:


> Amtrak maintains all of them, so MARC is just along for the ride.
> 
> 942/946 are pinch hitting for HHP's, the MARC AEM's have been junk for quite a long time. They were off for refurb about 5 years ago that went on and on and on. When they came back, the briefly roamed in pairs before getting parked again.


Are all of the MARC HHP-8's out of service as well?


----------



## Acela150

No.


----------



## Acela150

664 is close to Service and 668 arrived into "Fun City" today on train 30.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Acela150 said:


> ... arrived into "Fun City" today ...


"Fun City"? It's been almost 50 years!

But looking back on my 50 years here, it has been fun.


----------



## Acela150

WoodyinNYC said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... arrived into "Fun City" today ...
> 
> 
> 
> "Fun City"? It's been almost 50 years!
> 
> But looking back on my 50 years here, it has been fun.
Click to expand...

Dad gave DC that nickname during his years working for DOD.. All those politicians make it "Fun City".


----------



## Acela150

664 is in service as of this morning. Ran to NY on 184 and will return to DC on 129.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Acela150 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Fun City"? It's been almost 50 years!
> 
> 
> 
> ... arrived into "Fun City" today ...
> But looking back on my 50 years here, it has been fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Dad gave DC that nickname during his years working for DOD.. All those politicians make it "Fun City".
Click to expand...

Don't mind others using the term where it seems to fit, but it became famous, or _*infamous,*_ in NYC.

"After Dick Schaap, a columnist for _The New York Herald Tribune_, coined the phrase Fun City, the mayor [John Lindsay] adopted it to promote New York as a mecca of theater, art and other culture. The phrase came back to haunt him later when the [subway] trains stopped running...."

-- from Lindsay's _New York Times_ obituary


----------



## Thirdrail7

Some vandals placed debris on the tracks which resulted in damage to the 619. They were caught. I hope they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and since this is Rhode Island, things won't go well for them.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Some vandals placed debris on the tracks which resulted in damage to the 619. They were caught. I hope they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and since this is Rhode Island, things won't go well for them.


Just curios I heard that the train stopped in Attleboro, MA.. Just over the state line.

Did the train hit the obstruction in RI???


----------



## warrenwarner

AmtrakBlue said:


> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they still use the old locomotives (AEM-7) after they have been replaced? Are they kept in a yard as backups? Are they sold to other railroads? Are they used for parts? Or do they get scrapped?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe all but 2 have been retired and those 2 are on loan to MARC (Maryland's transportation agency).
Click to expand...

What happens to the locomotives once they are retired?


----------



## Ziv

They generally move to Palm Desert, drink copious amounts of bad wine, play golf poorly and pester the waitresses at the 19th Hole Bar.



warrenwarner said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they still use the old locomotives (AEM-7) after they have been replaced? Are they kept in a yard as backups? Are they sold to other railroads? Are they used for parts? Or do they get scrapped?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe all but 2 have been retired and those 2 are on loan to MARC (Maryland's transportation agency).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the locomotives once they are retired?
Click to expand...


----------



## Fan Railer

warrenwarner said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they still use the old locomotives (AEM-7) after they have been replaced? Are they kept in a yard as backups? Are they sold to other railroads? Are they used for parts? Or do they get scrapped?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe all but 2 have been retired and those 2 are on loan to MARC (Maryland's transportation agency).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the locomotives once they are retired?
Click to expand...

In all seriousness, they are mothballed until the leases expire, then they can be salvaged for any reusable parts and then scrapped.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Ziv said:


> They generally move to Palm Desert, drink copious amounts of bad wine, play golf poorly and pester the waitresses at the 19th Hole Bar.
> 
> 
> 
> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they still use the old locomotives (AEM-7) after they have been replaced? Are they kept in a yard as backups? Are they sold to other railroads? Are they used for parts? Or do they get scrapped?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe all but 2 have been retired and those 2 are on loan to MARC (Maryland's transportation agency).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the locomotives once they are retired?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

They'll either be scrapped, sold to other railroads, or possibly preserved. So far, one has been preserved in the RR Museum of PA.


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> They generally move to Palm Desert, drink copious amounts of bad wine, play golf poorly and pester the waitresses at the 19th Hole Bar.
> 
> 
> 
> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they still use the old locomotives (AEM-7) after they have been replaced? Are they kept in a yard as backups? Are they sold to other railroads? Are they used for parts? Or do they get scrapped?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe all but 2 have been retired and those 2 are on loan to MARC (Maryland's transportation agency).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What happens to the locomotives once they are retired?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They'll either be scrapped, sold to other railroads, or possibly preserved. So far, one has been preserved in the RR Museum of PA.
Click to expand...

You're close to right.. As Fan Railer said 2 Minutes Before you posted, so you get credit for posting while Fan Railer was posting.. Since the AC units are under a lease just like the HHP's they will sit Mothballed. IINM they will also have to undergo their normal 92 day inspections.


----------



## Acela150

664 has been stubborn since being released for Revenue Service. I believe she's broke down twice since being Accepted. She didn't even make it a week.. 3 days to be exact.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> 664 has been stubborn since being released for Revenue Service. I believe she's broke down twice since being Accepted. She didn't even make it a week.. 3 days to be exact.


And we know who's fault that is, don't we. They should renumber it 66.....


----------



## Acela150

Looks like 669 is starting east..


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> 664 has been stubborn since being released for Revenue Service. I believe she's broke down twice since being Accepted. She didn't even make it a week.. 3 days to be exact.


Actually, three times. I wonder SEPTIC did to it!



Acela150 said:


> Looks like 669 is starting east..


It left the plant a couple of days ago. One more to go.


----------



## PRR 60

Thirdrail7 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 664 has been stubborn since being released for Revenue Service. I believe she's broke down twice since being Accepted. She didn't even make it a week.. 3 days to be exact.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, three times. I wonder SEPTIC did to it!
Click to expand...

Maybe Amcrap is to blame?


----------



## jis

So if one were to flush Amcrap into SEPTIC tank .... Nah ....


----------



## Thirdrail7

PRR 60 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 664 has been stubborn since being released for Revenue Service. I believe she's broke down twice since being Accepted. She didn't even make it a week.. 3 days to be exact.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, three times. I wonder SEPTIC did to it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe Amcrap is to blame?
Click to expand...


Well, considering they've had it less time than SEPTIC or Siemens, I'd doubt it. But, anything is possible.


----------



## Agent

I caught AMTK 669 on Amtrak #6(23) both as it came into and as it left Ottumwa, Iowa Monday morning. I tried something new for the first video.  If you watch carefully, you'll also see a steam engine and (if only for a second at 1:17) a caboose.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Agent said:


> I caught AMTK 669 on Amtrak #6(23) both as it came into and as it left Ottumwa, Iowa Monday morning. I tried something new for the first video. If you watch carefully, you'll also see a steam engine and (if only for a second at 1:17) a caboose.


I never noticed the steam locomotive.


----------



## Ziv

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> I caught AMTK 669 on Amtrak #6(23) both as it came into and as it left Ottumwa, Iowa Monday morning. I tried something new for the first video. If you watch carefully, you'll also see a steam engine and (if only for a second at 1:17) a caboose.



I played it a couple times and missed it too.

I saw a steam locomotive working in Belgrade Serbia one time, very impressive. It was night and steam was like out of a movie.

Now that we are to 669 it would seem that we are close to closing out the buy. They are going to 670 since they skipped the number that shall not be named, right?

Any chance that they will buy another after SEPTA gets theirs, to replace 601? Or will 601 be coming back? Sorry if this was covered already, I didn't see it. I searched and saw it mentioned in 3 threads but the last word I saw was that it was still in the impound area for the NTSB and that it might not be released for years, even for parts if it is not repairable.

On edit: Ok, now I see it at 2:18, I was looking in the wrong spot. Nice. Reminds me of the steam engine at Havre Montana. That is a cool display, as well.

.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Steam engine is at 2:18 (near the end just before the train stops at the station). It's not on active tracks.


----------



## jfandre

Agent said:


> I caught AMTK 669 on Amtrak #6(23) both as it came into and as it left Ottumwa, Iowa Monday morning. I tried something new for the first video. If you watch carefully, you'll also see a steam engine and (if only for a second at 1:17) a caboose.


That's C B & Q Hudson 3001. 3003 is next to the depot in Burlington. When I was a boy, an old timer told me he had one of those Hudsons up to 120 MPH one time!


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Ziv said:


> I caught AMTK 669 on Amtrak #6(23) both as it came into and as it left Ottumwa, Iowa Monday morning. I tried something new for the first video. If you watch carefully, you'll also see a steam engine and (if only for a second at 1:17) a caboose.


#666 right? A bunch of nonsense. Yes, I know 666 is the devil's number, but why would that make such a bad idea to number a loco #666?


----------



## Ryan

It's been amply discussed in this very thread, feel free to go back and read.

Edit: Try around page 85. You even participated in the discussion.



CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Either that or 666, 667, 668, and 669 to go.





AmtrakBlue said:


> Obviously you've missed the posts where there will be a 670, therefore one of the other numbers will be skipped. Guess which one.





CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Why the heck would they skip 666?





Ryan said:


> Silly superstitious people.





CCC1007 said:


> because some people believe that 666 is "the mark of the beast."


----------



## Triley

hboy:


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

This superstitious stuff is just absolute bogus.


----------



## CCC1007

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> This superstitious stuff is just absolute bogus.


You are entitled to your opinions just as they are theirs.


----------



## Agent

<-- The steam engine is right here. And and at 2:17 in the first video. I should have had the time marked in the first post.

A person recorded a web camera showing AMTK 669 heading east on the _Capitol Limited_ through Chesterson, Indiana yesterday. They also had a microphone recording on their computer too.


----------



## PRR 60

The penultimate ACS-64 delivery!

By the way, superstitions are not bogus. My wife and I were at the Final Four in Houston for Villanova. When VU beat Oklahoma in the semi's, our entire area agreed to wear the same clothes on Monday for the final against North Carolina - and I mean the EXACT same clothes. We all did. Villanova won. Just sayin'.


----------



## Bob Dylan

PRR 60 said:


> The penultimate ACS-64 delivery!
> 
> By the way, superstitions are not bogus. My wife and I were at the Final Four in Houston for Villanova. When VU beat Oklahoma in the semi's, our entire area agreed to wear the same clothes on Monday for the final against North Carolina - and I mean the EXACT same clothes. We all did. Villanova won. Just sayin'.


To paraphrase Robert Duvall in "Apocalypse Now" bet your Section smelled like Victory!


----------



## Triley

CCC1007 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This superstitious stuff is just absolute bogus.
> 
> 
> 
> You are entitled to your opinions just as they are theirs.
Click to expand...

Exactly. And if Amtrak wants to humor people by skipping an engine numbered 666, then it is within our right. Just like towers "skip" floor 13, and in China they skip floor 4. Whoever owns the property can do whatever they want.


----------



## Ziv

Triley said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This superstitious stuff is just absolute bogus.
> 
> 
> 
> You are entitled to your opinions just as they are theirs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly. And if Amtrak wants to humor people by skipping an engine numbered 666, then it is within our right. Just like towers "skip" floor 13, and in China they skip floor 4. Whoever owns the property can do whatever they want.
Click to expand...

+1 No one complains about the fact that buildings frequently skip the 13th floor due to visitor wishes, the same should go with 666. I don't care that much but I know a lot of people I like and/or respect that would rather not have much to do with the number. It is a small gesture, but one that is noted. I think Amtrak was considerate to skip the number.

But back to the subject of the day. Is 670 it? I hope they find the money to buy a 671 if 601 is toast.


----------



## jis

Trainorders has a photo of #670 standing outside the Siemens Sacramento facility today. So they are all done and the last one is apparently very close to ready to ship.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Trainorders has a photo of #670 standing outside the Siemens Sacramento facility today. So they are all done and the last one is apparently very close to ready to ship.


They should bring it over either on the EB, SWC or the TE - that will mess with the foamers out west (assuming there are any ACS-64 foamers out there). 

Better yet - CS - SL - Crescent


----------



## offroad437

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trainorders has a photo of #670 standing outside the Siemens Sacramento facility today. So they are all done and the last one is apparently very close to ready to ship.
> 
> 
> 
> They should bring it over either on the EB, SWC or the TE - that will mess with the foamers out west (assuming there are any ACS-64 foamers out there).
> Better yet - CS - SL - Crescent
Click to expand...

I second it through NOLA


----------



## afigg

offroad437 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should bring it over either on the EB, SWC or the TE - that will mess with the foamers out west (assuming there are any ACS-64 foamers out there).
> 
> Better yet - CS - SL - Crescent
> 
> 
> 
> I second it through NOLA
Click to expand...

I don't think it is a good idea to send the last ACS-64 delivery through Louisiana or the Carolinas. Besides the extra pointless mileage, too much risk that someone will broadside it at a grade crossing. :huh:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

afigg said:


> offroad437 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should bring it over either on the EB, SWC or the TE - that will mess with the foamers out west (assuming there are any ACS-64 foamers out there).
> 
> Better yet - CS - SL - Crescent
> 
> 
> 
> I second it through NOLA
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think it is a good idea to send the last ACS-64 delivery through Louisiana or the Carolinas. Besides the extra pointless mileage, too much risk that someone will broadside it at a grade crossing. :huh:
Click to expand...

Do you really think it's safer on the CZ. I mean, trucks have broadsided trains and what about that irrigation equipment jumping on the tracks just before the train got there.


----------



## A Voice

offroad437 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trainorders has a photo of #670 standing outside the Siemens Sacramento facility today. So they are all done and the last one is apparently very close to ready to ship.
> 
> 
> 
> They should bring it over either on the EB, SWC or the TE - that will mess with the foamers out west (assuming there are any ACS-64 foamers out there).
> Better yet - CS - SL - Crescent
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I second it through NOLA
Click to expand...

I third it through Atlanta, Georgia.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

I'm interested to know. Has anyone taken any recent pictures of #627 or #601, or are they out of view for taking pictures?


----------



## TylerP42

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> I'm interested to know. Has anyone taken any recent pictures of #627 or #601, or are they out of view for taking pictures?


Seriously? 601 is probably in some dark warehouse or somewhere with investigative parties.


----------



## Thirdrail7

TylerP42 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested to know. Has anyone taken any recent pictures of #627 or #601, or are they out of view for taking pictures?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? 601 is probably in some dark warehouse or somewhere with investigative parties.
Click to expand...


Actually, they are coupled together outside Wilmington Shops. Anyone can see them from a passing train and anyone that enters the facility can walk right up to them, although the 601 is shrink wrapped.

What I fail to understand is why a recent picture is needed. Their appearances have not been altered. If you know what they looked like when they were towed to Wilmington, you know what they look like now.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested to know. Has anyone taken any recent pictures of #627 or #601, or are they out of view for taking pictures?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? 601 is probably in some dark warehouse or somewhere with investigative parties.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, they are coupled together outside Wilmington Shops. Anyone can see them from a passing train and anyone that enters the facility can walk right up to them, although the 601 is shrink wrapped.
> 
> What I fail to understand is why a recent picture is needed. Their appearances have not been altered. If you know what they looked like when they were towed to Wilmington, you know what they look like now.
Click to expand...

Bet there will be lots of pictures of them on or after 6/18. :lol: Unless they get moved before then.


----------



## Agent

Fan Railer said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, to get back to the topic. #667 has presumably reached the east coast.
> 
> So that leaves 668, 669, 670. Anyone wanna bet on when 670 gets delivered? I'm going to bet after the first Viewliner dining car, but still in March.
> 
> 
> 
> Not yet. 667 was sighted in Chicago yesterday. It will likely land in WAS tomorrow.
> 
> The delivery schedule for the final few units is drawn out. If nothing changes, 670 is scheduled to ship out of Florin on 4/29, which means it'll end up on 6 (5/1).
Click to expand...

It looks like something changed. Is there a new tentative schedule for 670?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Agent said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... that leaves 668, 669, 670. Anyone wanna bet on when 670 gets delivered? I'm going to bet after the first Viewliner dining car, but still in March.
> 
> 
> 
> The delivery schedule for the final few units is drawn out. If nothing changes, 670 is scheduled to ship out of Florin on 4/29, which means it'll end up on 6 (5/1).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It looks like something changed. Is there a new tentative schedule for 670?
Click to expand...

Fellas, please!

Neroden lost both parts of his bet -- no diner, and March is long gone.

And Fan Railer figured May1, which has also gone by.

As for the tentative schedule, unless CAF refuses to share it, I think we have that already:

"*Expect delays*".

At least that's a better delivery schedule than Nippon Sharyo can offer.


----------



## Fan Railer

668 testing last week:



669 is scheduled to test next week.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Hmm, maybe 670 will get here before the 18th and they can tack it on to the end of the AEM-7 Farewell train. h34r:


----------



## Fan Railer

670 will likely be sitting in the shop for the shop tour on the date of the excursion.


----------



## Acela150

For those who are interested... Mr. Boardman and crew are on their way out to Sacramento via SWC to take delivery of the last unit.


----------



## Agent

Acela150 said:


> For those who are interested... Mr. Boardman and crew are on their way out to Sacramento via SWC to take delivery of the last unit.


I wasn't aware you could get to Sacramento on the _Southwest Chief_. Anything for the president, I guess.


----------



## CCC1007

Agent said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those who are interested... Mr. Boardman and crew are on their way out to Sacramento via SWC to take delivery of the last unit.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't aware you could get to Sacramento on the _Southwest Chief_. Anything for the president, I guess.
Click to expand...

SWC to lax, then special over tehapi pass to Oakland and Sacramento.


----------



## Agent

CCC1007 said:


> SWC to lax, then special over tehapi pass to Oakland and Sacramento.


Not the way north from Los Angeles I would have guessed. Is there another reason for this trip than just the last ACS-64?


----------



## CCC1007

Agent said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> SWC to lax, then special over tehapi pass to Oakland and Sacramento.
> 
> 
> 
> Not the way north from Los Angeles I would have guessed. Is there another reason for this trip than just the last ACS-64?
Click to expand...

Could be, might just be someone wanted a tour of that line and they chose to oblige them.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Agent said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> SWC to lax, then special over tehapi pass to Oakland and Sacramento.
> 
> 
> 
> Not the way north from Los Angeles I would have guessed. Is there another reason for this trip than just the last ACS-64?
Click to expand...


There is another reason and they are stopping in other area en route.


----------



## Agent

A schedule of events for the special has listed on the third post of this thread.



> The Special Train will overnight in Modesto on the M&ET.
> Tuesday afternoon, will go to Sacramento, overnight there for two nights.
> Thursday June 2, to Oakland with the AMTK 670, the last Amtrak ACS-64.
> Thursday June 4 to Denver on Train 6, AMTK 670 scheduled to come along.
> Monday June 6, depart Denver on Train 6 to Chicago, same-day transfer of
> the Company Service cars to the Cardinal, Train 50(7).


There are a couple things there that make me unsure about it. I'd appreciate if anyone can confirm of clarify. I'd like to send notices about the last ACS-64 early enough so some people can make plans.


----------



## Thirdrail7

If all goes according to plan..................


----------



## afigg

Ok, so a major publicity show for the last ACS-70 unit to be delivered to Amtrak. What it does tell us is that there will not be any announcements about the next gen HSR trainset contract until sometime after June 7 or 8 because upper management is on tour.

Hope #670 gets a nice trouble-free trip eastward....


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> If all goes according to plan..................


You have to admit you're jealous of that


----------



## TylerP42

Acela150 said:


> For those who are interested... Mr. Boardman and crew are on their way out to Sacramento via SWC to take delivery of the last unit.


He also visited an employee who got career ending injury.


----------



## Fan Railer

That's depressing =/

In other news, 668 has been accepted into regular revenue rotations as of this week. 669 experienced a traction motor failure on her second test run and is out for repairs.


----------



## Agent

The Amtrak business special picked up AMTK 670 from the factory and went to Oakland yesterday. There are a couple small pictures here. Further down that thread there's a post that says the special's cars and 670 will start heading east on Amtrak #6(04), but the special will be dropped off Sunday to spend a day in Denver while 670 keeps going east to arrive in Chicago on Monday. The business cars will then arrive in Chicago on Tuesday, June 7, and then leave on the _Cardinal_; I'm guessing with 670 on the train as well. Did I get all that right?

Also, is it too much to hope that the stay in Denver will lead to an announcement about _Ski Train_ service?


----------



## afigg

Railway Age article (with photos) on the event celebrating the delivery of #670: Final Siemens ACS-64 for Amtrak rolls out of Sacramento. Excerpts:



> On Thursday, June 2, 2016, Amtrak and Siemens marked completion of the 70th and final Amtrak Cities Sprinter (ACS-64) electric locomotive at the Siemens rail manufacturing hub in Sacramento, Calif., when No. 670 rolled out of the plant, bound for the Northeast.
> 
> ....
> 
> Siemens employees spent an average of 7,000 hours building each locomotive, equaling nearly half a million total hours for all 70 ACS-64s. “The locomotives have been designed and built with advanced technology including a state-of-the-art microprocessor system that performs self-diagnosis of technical issues, and takes self-corrective action and notifies the locomotive engineer,” Siemens noted. “In addition, the energy efficient locomotives use a regenerative braking system to feed energy back into the power grid. Together, the locomotives could save over 3 billion kilowatt hours of energy and could result in more than $300 million in savings over their intended lifetime.”


So the last ACS-64 for Amtrak is making its way eastward. Now attention will shift to looking for the first Charger locomotive to be shipped out from the plant.


----------



## Agent

afigg said:


> Railway Age article (with photos) on the event celebrating the delivery of #670: Final Siemens ACS-64 for Amtrak rolls out of Sacramento.


I see a couple flags decals were put on one side of 670. I wonder if they were just there for the photo ops.

YouTube user Jim Jackson uploaded this video yesterday of the special leaving Sacramento.


----------



## PRR 60

Agent said:


> ...
> 
> I see a couple flags decals were put on one side of 670. I wonder if they were just there for the photo ops.
> 
> ...


The flag decals are standard on all the ACS-64's.


----------



## CCC1007

PRR 60 said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I see a couple flags decals were put on one side of 670. I wonder if they were just there for the photo ops.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> The flag decals are standard on all the ACS-64's.
Click to expand...

I think he's talking about the big one in the middle of the unit that appears to be waving in the wind.


----------



## PRR 60

CCC1007 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I see a couple flags decals were put on one side of 670. I wonder if they were just there for the photo ops.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> The flag decals are standard on all the ACS-64's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he's talking about the big one in the middle of the unit that appears to be waving in the wind.
Click to expand...

I'm not seeing that.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PRR 60 said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> I see a couple flags decals were put on one side of 670. I wonder if they were just there for the photo ops.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> The flag decals are standard on all the ACS-64's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he's talking about the big one in the middle of the unit that appears to be waving in the wind.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not seeing that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ACS670.jpg
Click to expand...

In one of the pictures in the news article posted earlier today.


----------



## PRR 60

AmtrakBlue said:


> In one of the pictures in the news article posted earlier today.


Ah, I see it now. Since they were gone when the unit rolled through Sacramento on the YouTube video, the extra flag decals must have been pealed off after the photo op.


----------



## Agent

Here's a video report from the local Sacramento news station KCRA. It includes some brief interviews with a few different people. To quote Joe Boardman talking about the performance of the ACS-64s:



> “The people of the Northeast right now have a much more reliable service. We've seen the reliability -- and delays down by 20 percent.”


----------



## KnightRail

Agent said:


> the special will be dropped off Sunday to spend a day in Denver


Scratch that.


----------



## Agent

KnightRail said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> the special will be dropped off Sunday to spend a day in Denver
> 
> 
> 
> Scratch that.
Click to expand...

So the whole kit and caboodle will be sticking with #6(04) then?


----------



## Agent

YouTube user Narodnie Mstiteli filmed Amtrak #6(04) today neat Verdi, Nevada. It met a Union Pacific business special just off-screen.


----------



## hermit

That UP business special :wub:


----------



## Thirdrail7

Agent said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> the special will be dropped off Sunday to spend a day in Denver
> 
> 
> 
> Scratch that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So the whole kit and caboodle will be sticking with #6(04) then?
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem like its going to 50 at this point either.


----------



## TylerP42

What train will it be put on to DC?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

TylerP42 said:


> What train will it be put on to DC?


I think all the ACS-64s have been put on #30.

As to the special, who says it's going to DC. Maybe they've changed plans (obviously they changed some plans already).


----------



## Agent

AmtrakBlue said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What train will it be put on to DC?
> 
> 
> 
> I think all the ACS-64s have been put on #30.
Click to expand...

Some have gone on #30. Some have gone on #50.


----------



## Acela150

Most of them have used train 30. IINM there was some type of outage on train 30 that resulted in them going on train 50.


----------



## Agent

YouTube user Metra 160 uploaded this video today of Amtrak #6(04) at sunset. It doesn't list a location, but I think I recognize it from other videos as part of the descent down the Rocky Mountains west of Denver. Takes a few minutes for the train to reach the camera for those that like to skip ahead.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Agent said:


> YouTube user Metra 160 uploaded this video today of Amtrak #6(04) at sunset. It doesn't list a location, but I think I recognize it from other videos as part of the descent down the Rocky Mountains west of Denver. Takes a few minutes for the train to reach the camera for those that like to skip ahead.


An interesting set of single-level cars attached at the back. An off-camera voice explains that one is an official business car, custom-built for Amtrak. The others I don't know.


----------



## CCC1007

WoodyinNYC said:


> YouTube user Metra 160 uploaded this video today of Amtrak #6(04) at sunset. It doesn't list a location, but I think I recognize it from other videos as part of the descent down the Rocky Mountains west of Denver. Takes a few minutes for the train to reach the camera for those that like to skip ahead.


Not just custom built for Amtrak, but custom built by Amtrak! 10001 beech grove was rebuilt from a wreck-damaged amfleet coach ~30 years ago. It was built to replace 10000 which was a heritage business car that was showing its age at the time.


----------



## jis

The four cars are all Amtrak special use cars. Of course Ocean View - the dome car is easy to recognize. The Heritage car has changed names a couple of times but the first word of the name has always been Pacific AFAIR. It has been Cape or Command. i don't recall what it is now. It is converted from a Heritage 10-6. The Viewliner well ahem - is a Viewliner I, and the last car is the Beech Grove converted from a damaged Amfleet I Coach many moons ago.


----------



## CCC1007

AmtrakBlue said:


> YouTube user Metra 160 uploaded this video today of Amtrak #6(04) at sunset. It doesn't list a location, but I think I recognize it from other videos as part of the descent down the Rocky Mountains west of Denver. Takes a few minutes for the train to reach the camera for those that like to skip ahead.


I think it's two sleepers, one executive fleet and the other normal viewliner, along with ocean view, their only dome, and beech grove bring up the rear, see my above comment for more info on that car.


----------



## Thirdrail7

The first car behind the regular consist is the 10021, which is currently named the Pacific Cape. At least this group is getting the full treatment. it is down 5 hours. I wonder if they'll make their connection.


----------



## hermit

what a treat to see,thanks for sharing


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CCC1007 said:


> YouTube user Metra 160 uploaded this video today of Amtrak #6(04) at sunset. It doesn't list a location, but I think I recognize it from other videos as part of the descent down the Rocky Mountains west of Denver. Takes a few minutes for the train to reach the camera for those that like to skip ahead.


I figured I'd get at least 1/2 of them wrong.  I deleted my post (yes, I have that ability) since better info has been provided.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> The first car behind the regular consist is the 10021, which is currently named the Pacific Cape. At least this group is getting the full treatment. it is down 5 hours. I wonder if they'll make their connection.


Ah thanks! It is Pacific Cape after its last name change.


----------



## Agent

Here's a couple videos of #6(04) from this morning.

This is by YouTube user OmahaTrain Kid was taken at the station in Omaha:


----------



## TylerP42

AMTK 48 (Lake Shore Limited, east) has 180, 115 and Kitchi gammi club, pacific cape 10021, viewliner 62033, ocean view 10031, beech grove 10001


----------



## TylerP42

TylerP42 said:


> AMTK 48 (Lake Shore Limited, east) has 180, 115 and Kitchi gammi club, pacific cape 10021, viewliner 62033, ocean view 10031, beech grove 10001


***** may be delayed to tomorrow or put on a different train depending on when 6 arrives


----------



## FreeskierInVT

TylerP42 said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> AMTK 48 (Lake Shore Limited, east) has 180, 115 and Kitchi gammi club, pacific cape 10021, viewliner 62033, ocean view 10031, beech grove 10001
> 
> 
> 
> ***** may be delayed to tomorrow or put on a different train depending on when 6 arrives
Click to expand...

Any idea if 670 would go along with 48?


----------



## TylerP42

FreeskierInVT said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> AMTK 48 (Lake Shore Limited, east) has 180, 115 and Kitchi gammi club, pacific cape 10021, viewliner 62033, ocean view 10031, beech grove 10001
> 
> 
> 
> ***** may be delayed to tomorrow or put on a different train depending on when 6 arrives
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any idea if 670 would go along with 48?
Click to expand...

Not on the consist info.Normally goes with 30 or cardinal.


----------



## Acela150

TylerP42 said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> AMTK 48 (Lake Shore Limited, east) has 180, 115 and Kitchi gammi club, pacific cape 10021, viewliner 62033, ocean view 10031, beech grove 10001
> 
> 
> 
> ***** may be delayed to tomorrow or put on a different train depending on when 6 arrives
Click to expand...

A strong suggestion is to not post information like this until it is confirmed..

ThirdRail mentioned due to the timing of the CZ that the cars may not make their connection. ThirdRail is 110% reliable with information.


----------



## Agent

Here's a video by YouTube user Chad Steffens from Ashland, Nebraska. This is the point Amtrak #6 splits from the main east-west line to head north to Omaha. You can see a BNSF freight train waiting on the mainline at the end.


----------



## Agent

I finally cobbled together a video of this Amtrak #6(04) from what I took in Ottumwa, Iowa today. It left the station five hours and forty minutes late. The video has four parts:

The beginning to 2:07 - Arriving at the station.

2:08 to 2:40 - Who's on the observation platform?

2:41 to 6:16 - Walking the length of the train. You can hear the conductor, engineer, and dispatcher over the radio at certain points.

6:17 to end - Departing the station. A couple on people on _Beech Grove_ wave.



(I have a fairly good guess on the first person seen on the platform.)


----------



## Acela150

First person on the platform is "the boss". Second is his right hand Brian Gallagher.


----------



## George K

I wonder if "The Boss" had any comments about being more than 5 hours late.


----------



## hermit

George K said:


> I wonder if "The Boss" had any comments about being more than 5 hours late.


lolololol


----------



## CCC1007

Looks like boardman recognized you.

I noticed the gesture he made in your direction.


----------



## TylerP42

Oh would you look at that? I was right. So much for doubting me.


----------



## Agent

YouTube's Toledo Terminal Productions posted this video of AMTK 670 on the _Capitol Limited_. Also on the train is the Dash 8 AMTK 500.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9kDoHXerg


----------



## Bob Dylan

Agent said:


> YouTube's Toledo Terminal Productions posted this video of AMTK 670 on the _Capitol Limited_. Also on the train is the Dash 8 AMTK 500.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9kDoHXerg


From our very own TylerP42!


----------



## Acela150

TylerP42 said:


> Oh would you look at that? I was right. So much for doubting me.


No need for that comment.


----------



## TylerP42

Acela150 said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh would you look at that? I was right. So much for doubting me.
> 
> 
> 
> No need for that comment.
Click to expand...

The thing is whenever I post information like that now I am very meticulous and deliberate to ensure it is correct. If there is even the slightest possibility it could be incorrect I do not post it or post a disclaimer like I did.


----------



## Thirdrail7

TylerP42 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh would you look at that? I was right. So much for doubting me.
> 
> 
> 
> No need for that comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The thing is whenever I post information like that now I am very meticulous and deliberate to ensure it is correct. If there is even the slightest possibility it could be incorrect I do not post it or post a disclaimer like I did.
Click to expand...


Actually, there was a chance that it would not have been correct. There was only authorization to hold the connection for a predetermined amount of time. If 6 would have lost a bit more time, the connection would have been released....but I'm sure your little sources didn't tell you that, because they probably didn't know it.

Things change. Did you notice how someone like me said very little during this entire trip? Do you know how long this has been in the works? Do you know how many itineraries were published? That's because I know that things can change and I don't say much until it happens or when someone brings something I use words like "currently," "so far," or "as long as nothing change/and or goes according to plan."

Don't be too proud of yourself, Tyler. Even a broken wind up clock is correct twice a day.


----------



## TylerP42

Thirdrail7 said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh would you look at that? I was right. So much for doubting me.
> 
> 
> 
> No need for that comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The thing is whenever I post information like that now I am very meticulous and deliberate to ensure it is correct. If there is even the slightest possibility it could be incorrect I do not post it or post a disclaimer like I did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, there was a chance that it would not have been correct. There was only authorization to hold the connection for a predetermined amount of time. If 6 would have lost a bit more time, the connection would have been released....but I'm sure your little sources didn't tell you that, because they probably didn't know it.
> 
> Things change. Did you notice how someone like me said very little during this entire trip? Do you know how long this has been in the works? Do you know how many itineraries were published? That's because I know that things can change and I don't say much until it happens or when someone brings something I use words like "currently," "so far," or "as long as nothing change/and or goes according to plan."
> 
> Don't be too proud of yourself, Tyler. Even a broken wind up clock is correct twice a day.
Click to expand...

How cute, you can insult someone.


----------



## KnightRail

TylerP42 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh would you look at that? I was right. So much for doubting me.
> 
> 
> 
> No need for that comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The thing is whenever I post information like that now I am very meticulous and deliberate to ensure it is correct. If there is even the slightest possibility it could be incorrect I do not post it or post a disclaimer like I did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, there was a chance that it would not have been correct. There was only authorization to hold the connection for a predetermined amount of time. If 6 would have lost a bit more time, the connection would have been released....but I'm sure your little sources didn't tell you that, because they probably didn't know it.
> 
> Things change. Did you notice how someone like me said very little during this entire trip? Do you know how long this has been in the works? Do you know how many itineraries were published? That's because I know that things can change and I don't say much until it happens or when someone brings something I use words like "currently," "so far," or "as long as nothing change/and or goes according to plan."
> 
> Don't be too proud of yourself, Tyler. Even a broken wind up clock is correct twice a day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How cute, you can insult someone.
Click to expand...

There is nothing there that is insulting. Reads much more like a reality check. Back on topic, 669 is out testing and 670 has reached the east coast.


----------



## Ryan

Saw it in Ivy City this afternoon.


----------



## Acela150

TylerP42 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh would you look at that? I was right. So much for doubting me.
> 
> 
> 
> No need for that comment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The thing is whenever I post information like that now I am very meticulous and deliberate to ensure it is correct. If there is even the slightest possibility it could be incorrect I do not post it or post a disclaimer like I did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, there was a chance that it would not have been correct. There was only authorization to hold the connection for a predetermined amount of time. If 6 would have lost a bit more time, the connection would have been released....but I'm sure your little sources didn't tell you that, because they probably didn't know it.
> 
> Things change. Did you notice how someone like me said very little during this entire trip? Do you know how long this has been in the works? Do you know how many itineraries were published? That's because I know that things can change and I don't say much until it happens or when someone brings something I use words like "currently," "so far," or "as long as nothing change/and or goes according to plan."
> 
> Don't be too proud of yourself, Tyler. Even a broken wind up clock is correct twice a day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How cute, you can insult someone.
Click to expand...

Tyler, you need to get a grip on things. ThirdRail is the most reliable source here. He or she never insulted you. Just gave you 110% facts that you or your "sources" don't know that he or she does. Tyler you wonder why people have been harsh to you. It's because you think that you know everything. And trust me. Being a know it all on the railroad gets people killed. Cause I remember you saying you'd like to work for the railroad.


----------



## andersone

is that heaven? No it's Iowa


----------



## Fan Railer

670 is on property and is *scheduled* to test the week after the AEM-7 excursion.


----------



## Fan Railer

670 scheduled to make her return test run from BOS to WAS later today. I'm hearing that there are special things planned for that unit, so she won't see revenue service for a little while longer.


----------



## Acela150

Fan Railer said:


> 670 scheduled to make her return test run from BOS to WAS later today. I'm hearing that there are special things planned for that unit, so she won't see revenue service for a little while longer.


Such as?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Acela150 said:


> Fan Railer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 670 scheduled to make her return test run from BOS to WAS later today. I'm hearing that there are special things planned for that unit, so she won't see revenue service for a little while longer.
> 
> 
> 
> Such as?
Click to expand...

It would certainly be appropriate to have a ceremony in Washington's Union Station with photo ops for Joe Boardman and team, and if possible, some friendly CongressCritters.

The apparent success of the ACS-64 order helps to make the case for ordering MORE new equipment, and it should enjoy all the publicity that Amtrak can get for it.


----------



## Thirdrail7

The 670 has been accepted for revenue service. There may be one more special movement before the SEPTA units are ready but as of now, this is it.


----------



## CCC1007

Thirdrail7 said:


> The 670 has been accepted for revenue service. There may be one more special movement before the SEPTA units are ready but as of now, this is it.


One more? For what?


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> The 670 has been accepted for revenue service. There may be one more special movement before the SEPTA units are ready but as of now, this is it.


70 up! 70 down! My small handful of cab rides were nice. A great unit that Amtrak must be proud of!


----------



## Ryan

CCC1007 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 670 has been accepted for revenue service. There may be one more special movement before the SEPTA units are ready but as of now, this is it.
> 
> 
> 
> One more? For what?
Click to expand...

They're finally going to deliver 666.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 670 has been accepted for revenue service. There may be one more special movement before the SEPTA units are ready but as of now, this is it.
> 
> 
> 
> One more? For what?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They're finally going to deliver 666.
Click to expand...


----------



## Acela150

On a more serious note.. I'd like to thank the many members that have contributed to this topic!! The topic has achieved 100 Pages and almost 2,000 replies!! When I started this topic over 3 years ago I never thought it would have achieved such success! I hope that the charger thread has similar success!


----------



## afigg

Amtrak posted a news release on #670 entering revenue service this week with comments on reductions in delay incidents, completing the delivery of the ACS-64s to Amtrak: FINAL ACS-64 LOCOMOTIVE ENTERS REVENUE SERVICE.



> WASHINGTON – Amtrak Cities Sprinter (ACS-64) locomotive #670 entered revenue service this week, marking delivery of the 70th ACS-64 locomotive to serve passengers along the highly-traveled Northeast Corridor and Keystone corridors for years to come. The Siemens-built equipment provides more reliable and efficient service for passengers.
> 
> ....
> 
> The advanced technology vehicles are designed for improved reliability and easier maintenance leading to faster turn-around times and increased availability of service. In fact, the equipment has already provided enhanced transportation benefits for passengers by improving on-time performance– reducing delay incidents by nearly 25 percent and reducing delay times by 30 percent. In addition, the locomotives meet the latest federal rail safety regulations, including crash energy management components, and come equipped with safety technology such as positive train control and inward-facing cameras.


One would hope that as they tweak the software and maintenance procedures for the ACS-64s, the frequency of delay incidents due to engine problems continue to fall.


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## VT Hokie

Shame they never had the fleet of 70 in place, with two wrecked before the order was even completed! 627 I assume is repairable. 601 I'm guessing not, unless they plan to ship the frame back to Siemens for a total rebuild.


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## Acela150

So who has or has NOT confirmed 601 is NOT repairable?? This is insane! Last I knew and still know it's held by the legal department. I think that is some serious common sense. So unless someone with inside info has stated 601 is a write off stop the nonsense.


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## CCC1007

Acela150 said:


> So who has or has NOT confirmed 601 is NOT repairable?? This is insane! Last I knew and still know it's held by the legal department. I think that is some serious common sense. So unless someone with inside info has stated 601 is a write off stop the nonsense.


Dude, they specifically said "my guess is..."


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## jis

Furthermore, all that he said is that he guesses Amtrak may have Siemens fix it by rebuilding, rather than Amtrak themselves doing it. Yeah it was a strange over reaction IMHO.


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## KnightRail

The seventieth unit has been equipped for ECP testing along with a full Keystone set.

Regardless of what the internet mythbusters say real ones conclude that the fleet returning to a full seventy is PLAU$IBLE.


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## Acela150

ECP??


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## CCC1007

Acela150 said:


> ECP??


ECP is Electronic controlled pneumatic brakes


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## Acela150

Thanks.


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