# Revamped Parlour Car on the Starlight



## Guest_PC (May 22, 2008)

Train 14 left LA for PDX on May 19, about a half hour late. According to the attendant this is "soft" launch of the newly revamped Parlour Car service on the Coast Starlight. The list of sleeping car services in the new timetable includes "coffee and bar service and afternoon and evening alternative meal service, wine tasting, night time sweets and on board theater."

Before lunch reservations were requested, fresh fruit (oranges and apples) was offered to those in the sleepers. The night-time sweets never materialized.

Soon after we were offered apple juice or champagne. Before it was served the dining car steward arrived to take our lunch reservation. Lunch for sleeping car passengers was offered in either the dining car or the Parlour Car. In trying to decide between what was said to be the more limited menu in Parlour Car, it was suggested that lunch in the PC and dinner in the diner would be a good choice.

However, the answer to our question about availability of seating in the PC was that the increased activity there precluded casual occupancy. There were times, however, when one could just sit and look out the windows.

Lunch in the PC consisted of two menu items: bow-tie pasta with mushroom sauce and a chef's salad. Wine was six dollars per glass, $12 for a half bottle, and - for a full bottle of the later wine tasting wines - ranging from $11-$15, $25 otherwise. Beer was unchanged at $5 a bottle. Desserts were apple crisp, carrot cake, or a chocolate something.

In appearance, the PC is unchanged -- except perhaps new carpet and upholstery. One-fourth of the car is the eight rotating arm chairs, one-fourth three dining car ables, one-fourth banquettes, and one fourth bar/kitchen space. There were fresh flowers on the table, cloth tablecloths, stainless "silver," plastic plates, glass wine glasses, and ceramic Amtrak mugs.

The formerly free wine-tasting is now $5 per person but includes crackers and cheese – eventually to be twelve kinds of artisanal cheese. "Everything that was previously free is now charged," noted one attendant. "They decided to make this a revenue center. That is to pay my salary." Even the once complimentary water now has a cost in the PC. In addition, an announcement offered the opportunity to tour the newly renovated PC and attend the wine-tasting event to coach passengers. After a bit, the car was filled. At this time there was a not entirely successful effort to drive out those passengers not drinking the wine. It was stated that the US Congress wanted to junk the PCs but Amtrak decided to save them by making them revenue generating.

Souvenirs ordered for the initial PC introduction in the mid-90s have been located and are now on sale in the PC. The logo used is not the original design as first used. That image is still on view on the glass seating separators.

The attendants -- of which there were two surrounded by a changing host of observers, managers, and others -- openly spoke of the experimental nature of the new PC. Some OBS are avoiding this new format, waiting to see how it shapes out. Once a normal trip, staffing will be reduced to one person in the future.

Coming back from breakfast in the diner -- where the menu was unchanged, there was some evidence of breakfast being offered in the PC perhaps to staff. Going through earlier, lunch in the PC was described to us but there was no mention of breakfast offerings. Second day lunch was to be spiral pasta with a spicy sauce or chef's salad.

At lunch in the diner our questions to the waiter about dining choices between the PC and the dining car prompted him to ask the Customer Service Manager to drop by for a chat. We expressed our concerns which were courteously received. All in aid of enhancing the PC experience. She clarified that it was in th eplan to allow choices from the diner menu in the PC but not PC food in the diner. The explanation was that demand for food service in the diner exceeds what they can provide in that space (a traditional diner with booths) and so the new PC service was propopsed to expand the seating.

On the second afternoon, the wine-tasting was announced as for sleeping car passengers only. It was still $5 and a printed ticket was issued. A second announcement -- after a great deal of palaver behind us -- offered the wine-tasting to coach passengers.

This is clearly a work in process, and we are pleased to see the return of the PC on the CS.


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## yarrow (May 22, 2008)

we are on the cs 6/21. sounds like it is not the ppc of old. i don't like charging for all the amenities after paying for a sleeper. i'm sure not going to the wine tasting for $5. i guess i can just recollect being in the ppc back when. thanks for your report


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## TVRM610 (May 22, 2008)

Well.. I would much rather see this version of the PPC then none at all. Would you rather they add $20 ($10 per person) to your sleeper fare to cover there costs for this? Or give you the option? Personally I'd rather have the option... I think it's great they can get some revenue from coach passengers by using the PPC but without opening it up to everyone, sounds like a decent plan to me.

Perhaps if the car can at least come close to breaking even, amtrak could consider adding PPC-like cars on the Empire Builder (they could use those Sightseers they no longer have on the CON and TE!).

Just saying... amtrak is using there head and managing to keep the PPC's rather than scrapping them, I have to support that, even if I'm not happy about all the changes.


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## Rail Freak (May 22, 2008)

TVRM610 said:


> Well.. I would much rather see this version of the PPC then none at all. Would you rather they add $20 ($10 per person) to your sleeper fare to cover there costs for this? Or give you the option? Personally I'd rather have the option... I think it's great they can get some revenue from coach passengers by using the PPC but without opening it up to everyone, sounds like a decent plan to me.
> Perhaps if the car can at least come close to breaking even, amtrak could consider adding PPC-like cars on the Empire Builder (they could use those Sightseers they no longer have on the CON and TE!).
> 
> Just saying... amtrak is using there head and managing to keep the PPC's rather than scrapping them, I have to support that, even if I'm not happy about all the changes.


If one is in a sleeper and wants to go, say to the lounge, what cars do you walk thru? ( Any set configuration of car types? )


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## AlanB (May 22, 2008)

TVRM610 said:


> Well.. I would much rather see this version of the PPC then none at all. Would you rather they add $20 ($10 per person) to your sleeper fare to cover there costs for this? Or give you the option? Personally I'd rather have the option... I think it's great they can get some revenue from coach passengers by using the PPC but without opening it up to everyone, sounds like a decent plan to me.
> Perhaps if the car can at least come close to breaking even, amtrak could consider adding PPC-like cars on the Empire Builder (they could use those Sightseers they no longer have on the CON and TE!).
> 
> Just saying... amtrak is using there head and managing to keep the PPC's rather than scrapping them, I have to support that, even if I'm not happy about all the changes.


I concur, better to try and help cover its costs than to loose it entirely. Someone was showing some initiative to figure out a way to save these cars, rather than just cutting them to help comply with the Congressional edict to cut food service losses.


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## yarrow (May 22, 2008)

i am sure we will enjoy the new ppc but i still wonder if the change to making it a revenue center isn't short sighted. if it is a first class lounge then leave it as it was. my understanding is that amtrak doesn't lose money on sleeper passengers. i could see where erosion of amenities could do the opposite of what is intended by the relaunch. why not charge for pepsi and pretzels in the metro lounges too?


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## AlanB (May 22, 2008)

yarrow said:


> i am sure we will enjoy the new ppc but i still wonder if the change to making it a revenue center isn't short sighted. if it is a first class lounge then leave it as it was. my understanding is that amtrak doesn't lose money on sleeper passengers. i could see where erosion of amenities could do the opposite of what is intended by the relaunch. why not charge for pepsi and pretzels in the metro lounges too?


Amtrak doesn't loose money on sleeper pax. But that doesn't mean that they make enough extra money on them to warrant hauling around an extra car with all the costs that entails, pay for an LSA, and the food & wine.


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## gswager (May 22, 2008)

Rail Freak said:


> If one is in a sleeper and wants to go, say to the lounge, what cars do you walk thru? ( Any set configuration of car types? )


From sleeper, you will walk through the PPC and dining car into the sightseer/lounge car.


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## Rail Freak (May 22, 2008)

gswager said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > If one is in a sleeper and wants to go, say to the lounge, what cars do you walk thru? ( Any set configuration of car types? )
> ...


How many reward pts. per shimp that I snatch will I get, as I stroll thru the dining car?

:lol:


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## sechs (May 22, 2008)

TVRM610 said:


> Would you rather they add $20 ($10 per person) to your sleeper fare to cover there costs for this? Or give you the option?


Yes. I'd also prefer that airlines raise their fares, rather than this nickel and dime model.

Why don't they just declare roomettes to no longer be first class, take away their dining privileges, and charge per bed? A la carte has a place, but this is not it.


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## yarrow (May 23, 2008)

sechs said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Would you rather they add $20 ($10 per person) to your sleeper fare to cover there costs for this? Or give you the option?
> ...


i agree totally with sechs. well put


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## SUTTONK11 (May 23, 2008)

sechs said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Would you rather they add $20 ($10 per person) to your sleeper fare to cover there costs for this? Or give you the option?
> ...


I would much perfer to have the price of the first class ticket include everthing rather than having Amtrak trying to slip through the backdoor with all these additional charges. I, for one, want to be able to budget a trip which is an option the airlines and cruise ships do not offer at this time; Amtrak should take the bold approach, buck the traditional thinking of the travel industry and see what happens. In todays world of increasing fuel costs Amtrak has probably the best and most efficient mode of travel and one that will greatly increase in popularity if managed properly.

I also totally agree that the establishmend of an additional class between coach and first where extras are offered at an additional cost would be a great move in satisfying all future riders.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 23, 2008)

I'd rather have them reintroduce a modern Slumbercoach!


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## AlanB (May 23, 2008)

Guys, not everyone will want to partake of say the Wine & Cheese tasting in the PPC. So why should a passenger in a sleeper have to pay for that, if he/she isn't going to use it?

Yes, if things were as they should be with no Congressional mandate and proper funding, such a charge wouldn't be needed. But sadly that is not reality. Congress has ordered Amtrak to cut the $200 M+ loss each year on food service. The PPC falls under the food service category, so Amtrak has to do what it can to justify running that car as I noted in the other topic in the main Amtrak forum.

Raising prices across the board could backfire by driving people away, especially if they find out that the price increases were because of things that they don't want to use. In this case pay as you go makes some sense. This is not at all like American charging $15 for the first checked bag. Everyone pretty much expects to check a bag, except for maybe a business person traveling light. And this really isn't about the weight of the bag, that's just an excuse. The issue here is fuel prices and the general failure of Americans to look at "extra" fees when comparing prices. Raise the price of the ticket 15 bucks and most will walk over to the lower priced competition, even if the compentition is charging $15 extra to check a bag. Because there is that same mental block about the base price being cheaper, like there is with the idea that something that costs $3.99 being cheaper than something that costs $4.00.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 24, 2008)

I dunno. I've always seen $3.99 at "Four dollars". Actually, I see anything greater than X.75 as X+1. So $176 is "About two hundred dollars"

I mean, don't you have to figure the whole cost? Take my trip coming up to Chicago. Well its coming up in 6 months, anyway. The Rail fare is $320, the sleeper accommodations are $294, I gotta get to the City ($42), I'm going to drink at least two drinks each day ($30), we are going to Giordano's ($40), and I know I am going to eat misc. food ($20?). Then, I'll assume I am going to get exemplary service (I'd rather budget for the best- better to run under budget than over) so thats another $35 in tips, probably. So it comes to $781, or "About eight hundred dollars". *Shrugs*


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 24, 2008)

I go so far as to look at many potential purchases in terms of how much they'll cost per year when I divide their cost over their expected life. I think I was forgetting to think about this when I took my Lake Shore Limited trip.


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## SUTTONK11 (May 24, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Guys, not everyone will want to partake of say the Wine & Cheese tasting in the PPC. So why should a passenger in a sleeper have to pay for that, if he/she isn't going to use it?
> Yes, if things were as they should be with no Congressional mandate and proper funding, such a charge wouldn't be needed. But sadly that is not reality. Congress has ordered Amtrak to cut the $200 M+ loss each year on food service. The PPC falls under the food service category, so Amtrak has to do what it can to justify running that car as I noted in the other topic in the main Amtrak forum.
> 
> Raising prices across the board could backfire by driving people away, especially if they find out that the price increases were because of things that they don't want to use. In this case pay as you go makes some sense. This is not at all like American charging $15 for the first checked bag. Everyone pretty much expects to check a bag, except for maybe a business person traveling light. And this really isn't about the weight of the bag, that's just an excuse. The issue here is fuel prices and the general failure of Americans to look at "extra" fees when comparing prices. Raise the price of the ticket 15 bucks and most will walk over to the lower priced competition, even if the compentition is charging $15 extra to check a bag. Because there is that same mental block about the base price being cheaper, like there is with the idea that something that costs $3.99 being cheaper than something that costs $4.00.


I agree that raising prices "could" backfire but so can any change. All I am saying is that, rather than nickel and dime the customer to death, raise the price and see what effect it has. Changing the price of first class would also give a better indication as to the effect on the bottom line since you would not have to guess how many were going to pay for cheese and wine over the course of a year. I also fail to see where the competition is that all these upset customers are going to run - cruise ships are the closest comparable competition, they cost twice as much and you have to make reservations months in advance.

Extra for wine and cheese tasting today, extra for time in the observation car tomorrow and before long meals will not be included ( after all, if a first class passenger decides not to eat dinner, why should he/she have to pay for it? )


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## Rail Freak (May 24, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Guys, not everyone will want to partake of say the Wine & Cheese tasting in the PPC. So why should a passenger in a sleeper have to pay for that, if he/she isn't going to use it?
> Yes, if things were as they should be with no Congressional mandate and proper funding, such a charge wouldn't be needed. But sadly that is not reality. Congress has ordered Amtrak to cut the $200 M+ loss each year on food service. The PPC falls under the food service category, so Amtrak has to do what it can to justify running that car as I noted in the other topic in the main Amtrak forum.
> 
> Raising prices across the board could backfire by driving people away, especially if they find out that the price increases were because of things that they don't want to use. In this case pay as you go makes some sense. This is not at all like American charging $15 for the first checked bag. Everyone pretty much expects to check a bag, except for maybe a business person traveling light. And this really isn't about the weight of the bag, that's just an excuse. The issue here is fuel prices and the general failure of Americans to look at "extra" fees when comparing prices. Raise the price of the ticket 15 bucks and most will walk over to the lower priced competition, even if the compentition is charging $15 extra to check a bag. Because there is that same mental block about the base price being cheaper, like there is with the idea that something that costs $3.99 being cheaper than something that costs $4.00.


Alan,

This rookie was throwing the idea of not going thru the PC to whatever other car during wine tasting because , basically that doesn't interest me. So, I was debating --- do I tromp thru this presentation to the other cars or do I just sit tight in my Sleeper??? VERY INTERESTING SUBJECT!

Since I'm new, I'll shut up & listen!!!


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## AlanB (May 24, 2008)

Rail Freak said:


> Alan,This rookie was throwing the idea of not going thru the PC to whatever other car during wine tasting because , basically that doesn't interest me. So, I was debating --- do I tromp thru this presentation to the other cars or do I just sit tight in my Sleeper??? VERY INTERESTING SUBJECT!
> 
> Since I'm new, I'll shut up & listen!!!


If I'm understanding your question correctly, just because there is a wine and cheese tasting or anything else going on, if you have a desire to visit another car of the train, you walk right through any other car regardless of what's going on. Obviously you want to take care that you don't knock over a waiter carrying a tray of food, or push someone down a flight of stairs. But again, just because the dining car is serving lunch is no reason for you not to walk through to reach the Sightseer lounge car if you want to sit and watch the sights go by.

Heck, people were even walking by during a wedding that I once witnessed on the Cardinal in the Sightseer Lounge. As long as the car isn't off limits to you, then you are allowed to walk through it regardless of what's going on, unless there is some immediate safety issue.


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## the_traveler (May 25, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Guys, not everyone will want to partake of say the Wine & Cheese tasting in the PPC. So why should a passenger in a sleeper have to pay for that, if he/she isn't going to use it?


I don't drink Pepsi (or any other soda), but the Club Acelas and Met Lounges have them free of charge. So why should I pay for them (with my fare)? :huh:


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## Green Maned Lion (May 25, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> I go so far as to look at many potential purchases in terms of how much they'll cost per year when I divide their cost over their expected life. I think I was forgetting to think about this when I took my Lake Shore Limited trip.


I keep trying to explain to people the concept that a cars purchase price is only its cost of depreciation over time. I keep trying to explain to my mother that my car, though going on its 14th birthday (in 4 days, actually) it is a non-depreciating asset. To a certain group, the W124 '94/95 E300 Diesel is the second best car ever built (to the W124 '94/95 E300 Turbodiesel) and the best car ever sold in the US. As far as that group is concerned (and I am a solid member) cars that good will never be built again because building them that way would be way too expensive.

Anyway, the result of this is that the '95 E300 Diesel doesn't depreciate. I bought my car for 10 grand 3 years ago, I could sell it for 10 grand tomorrow. (Someone has actually been trying to buy it from me- fat chance.) Anyway, being an old Mercedes, it was a car that actually cost more to build than they sold it for. Which means that the parts are damned expensive, repairing it is damned expensive, and being 14 years old, things break from time to time. I also figure if I bought a $10,000 car today, I'd lose $3000 in value every year for three years.

Thus, in order for my 14 year old car to be more expensive to repair than buying another one, I need $3000 in repairs, on average, a year. I spend, on average, $1000 on repairs. (That doesn't include maintnence, which is a moot point- I'd have to pay for it regardless of the cars age.) The most expensive, and only one of two, repairs I've had was the fuel delivery system's return lines (you'd need a crash course in diesel engines to explain what these do) self-destructing, which cost $2000.

If you can't calculate all the costs, you are bound to make the wrong decisions.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 25, 2008)

the_traveler said:


> I don't drink Pepsi (or any other soda), but the Club Acelas and Met Lounges have them free of charge. So why should I pay for them (with my fare)? :huh:


But the Boston ClubAcela also has cans of orange juice from concentrate. (Nevermind that 99.9% of my orange juice consumption in the last year has been the not from concentrate variety, and I'm a little confused about why a first class lounge would stock lower quality stuff than I usually drink.)


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 25, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Thus, in order for my 14 year old car to be more expensive to repair than buying another one, I need $3000 in repairs, on average, a year. I spend, on average, $1000 on repairs. (That doesn't include maintnence, which is a moot point- I'd have to pay for it regardless of the cars age.) The most expensive, and only one of two, repairs I've had was the fuel delivery system's return lines (you'd need a crash course in diesel engines to explain what these do) self-destructing, which cost $2000.


Have you owned the car for at least two years?


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## Walt (May 25, 2008)

AlanB said:


> This is not at all like American charging $15 for the first checked bag. Everyone pretty much expects to check a bag, except for maybe a business person traveling light. And this really isn't about the weight of the bag, that's just an excuse. The issue here is fuel prices and the general failure of Americans to look at "extra" fees when comparing prices. Raise the price of the ticket 15 bucks and most will walk over to the lower priced competition, even if the compentition is charging $15 extra to check a bag. Because there is that same mental block about the base price being cheaper, like there is with the idea that something that costs $3.99 being cheaper than something that costs $4.00.


Actually, IMHO, it is almost schizophrenic to charge $15 for checked baggage, since the industry has been trying to hard to cut back on carry-ons. If anything, American should be charging $15 for each carry-on, and chalk it up to all the extra security screening and delays they cause.

You are right about the airline's base price being cheaper. When you go to book, it isn't until you are pretty much thru the process does the true price, by adding in all the extras, becomes evident. However, initially, most people compare the base price between airlines.

Good thing Amtrak doesn't tack on "Station Use" fees, and "Boarding Processing" fees.

Plus, the largest "free" checked baggage on Amtrak is like 36"x36"x36". Try checking in something that large with an airline, and see what fees you get charged. You might want to simply buy it a 1st class seat.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 25, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Everyone pretty much expects to check a bag, except for maybe a business person traveling light.


I assume you mean all air travellers? Even when I've been on trains with checked baggage service available on non-business trips, I haven't seen any need to check luggage.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 25, 2008)

Walt said:


> Plus, the largest "free" checked baggage on Amtrak is like 36"x36"x36". Try checking in something that large with an airline, and see what fees you get charged. You might want to simply buy it a 1st class seat.


I have to wonder what fraction of Amtrak trips actually booked that are longer than, say, 200-300 miles are actually in places where checked baggage service is available at all (that is, baggage service at both the originating and destination station, and optionally also baggage car on the particular train the traveler is riding). I bet an awful lot of Amtrak passengers are technically not allowed to bring a 10 pound 15" x 15" x 15" cube.

My last NEC trip was to Williamsburg, which I believe has no checked baggage service, even though on the southbound part of the trip, I was on the one NEC train (#67) that does have a baggage car.

The Lake Shore Limited does have checked baggage, but I'm not sure how that would have worked on the bustituted ALB->BOS leg on the way home.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 25, 2008)

Walt said:


> If anything, American should be charging $15 for each carry-on, and chalk it up to all the extra security screening and delays they cause.


Does American pay for that screening, though?


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## Green Maned Lion (May 25, 2008)

Had the car for almost 3 years now. And by the way, I service and repair it at the dealer. I'd imagine that if I didn't the prices would be quite a bit lower. But I happen to trust and have a good relationship with my service advisor so I stick to them, for now.


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