# Auto Train Expansion/Changes?



## lordsigma (Aug 15, 2019)

Winecliff Station said:


> I think if Amtrak were to change price points in relation to the removal of the diner cars, it would be seen as an admission to lower value, and therefore lower quality of the meal service. Since I don't see that happening I'm assuming there will be no reflection by way of reduction in fares.



Except they sort of are admitting it already by keeping a chef and more traditional dining for the sleeper passengers on the Auto Train - current management undoubtedly values the Auto Train over the other eastern routes as it is a better revenue performer and closer to breaking even which seems to be what these guys are all about - they are also adding a sleeper to the train which is also a possible admission that ADDING beds could improve the revenue and get it possibly closer to profitable. By keeping full service on the “better” train they are admitting it’s better in my opinion.


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## Winecliff Station (Aug 15, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> Except they sort of are admitting it already by keeping a chef and more traditional dining for the sleeper passengers on the Auto Train - current management undoubtedly values the Auto Train over the other eastern routes as it is a better revenue performer and closer to breaking even which seems to be what these guys are all about - they are also adding a sleeper to the train which is also a possible admission that ADDING beds could improve the revenue and get it possibly closer to profitable. By keeping full service on the “better” train they are admitting it’s better in my opinion.



I thought that was only for a few more months though....long enough to cover the hardcore last of the snow birds, those who hold out to have a white Christmas and then head south after the holiday season.

I myself don't see the appeal of the Auto Train...for many people it's still a long drive on both ends. They're possibly missing a large market by not starting in Croton or Albany on one end and finishing in Miami at the other.


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## jiml (Aug 15, 2019)

Winecliff Station said:


> I thought that was only for a few more months though....long enough to cover the hardcore last of the snow birds, those who hold out to have a white Christmas and then head south after the holiday season.
> 
> I myself don't see the appeal of the Auto Train...for many people it's still a long drive on both ends. They're possibly missing a large market by not starting in Croton or Albany on one end and finishing in Miami at the other.


Albany would be wonderful (just sayin'), but would result in some rather interesting routing to rejoin its current tracks.


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## Winecliff Station (Aug 15, 2019)

jiml said:


> Albany would be wonderful (just sayin'), but would result in some rather interesting routing to rejoin its current tracks.



Oh I know it’s too late now, especially since the word “expanding” doesn’t seem to be in Amtrak’s current vocabulary....just wish the original plans had farther visions at the time.


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## Qapla (Aug 15, 2019)

Unless they reroute the AT at DC - it can't go any further north ... it is too tall to fit under the power lines used for the electric trains.

Starting it out in Miami would be a nice addition as would adding a stop in Jacksonville to service riders from the panhandle.They could even load the cars and the passengers before the AT arrives and insert the loaded cars into the consist.


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## ehbowen (Aug 15, 2019)

While I believe that clearances have been raised somewhat in the intervening 45+ years, at the time _Auto-Train_ service was instituted there was no rail route north of DC which was suitable for the auto carriers used. On the south end, Orlando/Sanford is a good compromise between northern and southern Florida points and is extremely convenient to the then-new and widely publicized destination of Disney World. Additional stops introduce additional operational complications; the addition of the midwestern Auto-Train (which operated with Amtrak's _Floridian_) essentially bankrupted _A-T_ as a private company. Auto-Train company's business philosophy was that passengers could spend the morning driving down from New York or Philly (sorry, Boston!) to Lorton, spend a pleasant evening and night aboard the train, and awaken an easy drive from wherever their ultimate destination might be in Florida...Miami, Tampa, St. Augustine or the eastern beaches...or the Mouse House.


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## lordsigma (Aug 15, 2019)

ehbowen said:


> While I believe that clearances have been raised somewhat in the intervening 45+ years, at the time _Auto-Train_ service was instituted there was no rail route north of DC which was suitable for the auto carriers used. On the south end, Orlando/Sanford is a good compromise between northern and southern Florida points and is extremely convenient to the then-new and widely publicized destination of Disney World. Additional stops introduce additional operational complications; the addition of the midwestern Auto-Train (which operated with Amtrak's _Floridian_) essentially bankrupted _A-T_ as a private company. Auto-Train company's business philosophy was that passengers could spend the morning driving down from New York or Philly (sorry, Boston!) to Lorton, spend a pleasant evening and night aboard the train, and awaken an easy drive from wherever their ultimate destination might be in Florida...Miami, Tampa, St. Augustine or the eastern beaches...or the Mouse House.



Boston is possible. I do it from Springfield, MA and will be again in October.


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## ehbowen (Aug 15, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> Boston is possible. I do it from Springfield, MA and will be again in October.


I'm kidding, I'm kidding! On a more serious note, it wasn't just the auto carriers; the original _Auto-Train_ consists included Big Domes which A-T company purchased from Santa Fe. They needed a high clearance routing bumper-to-bumper.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 15, 2019)

Today there is a route available to get into New York. Especially once the DC tunnel work is done. Keep straight to avoid Union Station and follow CSX to the Camden Line. Up the line to Baltimore then to the Philadelphia Sub. Then follow the ex Reading and Central Railway of New Jersey into the NY Metro area. 

But it would take a lot longer than the regular NEC for starters. And CSX and NS would demand improvements and capacity increases. Not worth it


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 15, 2019)

You'd need two additional sets of equipment as well but is is doable. Actually, wit ha few improvements, some undercutting, restoration of the gauntlet track through the B&P tunnel and restoring access to the High Line (Philadelphia bypass), you could probably run it over a large part of the NEC.


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## ehbowen (Aug 15, 2019)

New _Auto-Train_ station: Bangor, Maine!


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## Rasputin (Aug 16, 2019)

ehbowen said:


> New _Auto-Train_ station: Bangor, Maine!


Third boxcar in that train.


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## ehbowen (Aug 16, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> Third boxcar in that train.


Arriving at midnight!


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## jis (Aug 16, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> You'd need two additional sets of equipment as well but is is doable. Actually, wit ha few improvements, some undercutting, restoration of the gauntlet track through the B&P tunnel and restoring access to the High Line (Philadelphia bypass), you could probably run it over a large part of the NEC.


Of course its financial performance will go totally to hell, so that the Amtrak administration can discontinue it in six months after that too.  All problems solved (where is the ROTFL emoji?)


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## Dakota 400 (Aug 16, 2019)

I still am of the opinion that an Auto-Train originating/ending in Cincinnati or Indianapolis. maybe not daily and on a seasonal schedule, might be successful for Amtrak. Particularly if it was on a late Fall to early Spring schedule. Time the schedule so that those cruising from Florida during the late Fall-early Spring time frame could arrive in Florida with plenty of time to reach their port.


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## ehbowen (Aug 16, 2019)

Dakota 400 said:


> I still am of the opinion that an Auto-Train originating/ending in Cincinnati or Indianapolis. maybe not daily and on a seasonal schedule, might be successful for Amtrak. Particularly if it was on a late Fall to early Spring schedule. Time the schedule so that those cruising from Florida during the late Fall-early Spring time frame could arrive in Florida with plenty of time to reach their port.


If we could upgrade and dispatch at least one of the lines to match the same speeds which were possible 78 years ago...or even 80% or so of that speed...I would agree with you.


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## Palmland (Aug 16, 2019)

It would seem to me that the best potential new market for Auto Train would be the Chicago area, presumably west of the congested area, to Colorado. The drive through the Great Plains is interesting but those on vacation might like to skip it. If nothing else it would help justify the investment KS and CO have made in the SWC route. Perhaps Pueblo, on I-25, might make a good end point. It’s 2 hrs to Denver, 4.5 to Albuquerque, about 2.5 to the ski areas around Breckinridge.


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## pennyk (Aug 16, 2019)

MODERATOR NOTE:
Comments in the "More Diners Cut effective October 1" thread pertaining to Auto Train expansion and changes were split off and moved to this new thread.

Thank you for attempting to keep our threads more or less on topic.


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## lordsigma (Aug 17, 2019)

Winecliff Station said:


> I thought that was only for a few more months though....long enough to cover the hardcore last of the snow birds, those who hold out to have a white Christmas and then head south after the holiday season.
> 
> I myself don't see the appeal of the Auto Train...for many people it's still a long drive on both ends. They're possibly missing a large market by not starting in Croton or Albany on one end and finishing in Miami at the other.



The Sleeping car diner isn’t going anywhere from the auto train and is not going contemporary - coach diner is being removed. In my opinion (and not that I agree) current management feels the auto train is more valuable than the meteor or crescent and has more of a place in their vision of an Amtrak 2.0. The auto train is certainly the most popular true long distance overnight trip in Amtrak’s network. Every passenger on it is overnight end to end, hence the need for all the rolling stock. If their plan is to have just a few experiential traditional overnight trains and the rest corridors, auto train is certainly one that makes sense to have as part of such a portfolio.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Aug 24, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> The Sleeping car diner isn’t going anywhere from the auto train and is not going contemporary - coach diner is being removed. In my opinion (and not that I agree) current management feels the auto train is more valuable than the meteor or crescent and has more of a place in their vision of an Amtrak 2.0. The auto train is certainly the most popular true long distance overnight trip in Amtrak’s network. Every passenger on it is overnight end to end, hence the need for all the rolling stock. If their plan is to have just a few experiential traditional overnight trains and the rest corridors, auto train is certainly one that makes sense to have as part of such a portfolio.


I don't think the current management is trying to cut most of the Eastern LD routes; they are certainly modifying the experience, but that doesn't mean they want the routes completely gone. They recently starting the process of acquiring new locomotives for LD service, and the eastern LD routes function as overlapping corridors in many cases. It is also worth noting investment in certain areas, such the new high level platform being constructed at Tampa Union Station, improvements to New Orleans UPT, and the acquisition of trackage from Palatka to DeLand, all projects which exclusively benefit LD trains. This is entirely my opinion and many will disagree with me, but I think Amtrak is just transitioning the LD routes from more of a luxury experience to essential and competitive transportation while minimizing subsidies. Anderson has specifically mentioned the CZ, EB, and CS in future plans, whereas the eastern routes seem to fit his model much better, so the only routes for which I foresee a significant risk of being eliminated are the other largely rural routes, namely the SL and SWC. I'm don't support such an elimination, but I don't find the situation to be as dire as made out to be and I would be very surprised if Anderson cut all service from the NEC to Florida or Chicago, for example.


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## lordsigma (Aug 29, 2019)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I don't think the current management is trying to cut most of the Eastern LD routes; they are certainly modifying the experience, but that doesn't mean they want the routes completely gone. They recently starting the process of acquiring new locomotives for LD service, and the eastern LD routes function as overlapping corridors in many cases. It is also worth noting investment in certain areas, such the new high level platform being constructed at Tampa Union Station, improvements to New Orleans UPT, and the acquisition of trackage from Palatka to DeLand, all projects which exclusively benefit LD trains. This is entirely my opinion and many will disagree with me, but I think Amtrak is just transitioning the LD routes from more of a luxury experience to essential and competitive transportation while minimizing subsidies. Anderson has specifically mentioned the CZ, EB, and CS in future plans, whereas the eastern routes seem to fit his model much better, so the only routes for which I foresee a significant risk of being eliminated are the other largely rural routes, namely the SL and SWC. I'm don't support such an elimination, but I don't find the situation to be as dire as made out to be and I would be very surprised if Anderson cut all service from the NEC to Florida or Chicago, for example.


I think service from the NEC to Florida and to Chicago will continue, but it may look different in an Anderson Amtrak 2.0 in how say the Silver Meteor's route is served. You may not have the present 97/98 in their present form and instead possibly strung together corridors with a once per day longer distance train running between points in which there is no corridor. I think Anderson sees the three trains you mentioned and the Auto Train as the trains that he supports continueing in their present form as an end to end long distance train with traditional amenities.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Aug 29, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> I think service from the NEC to Florida and to Chicago will continue, but it may look different in an Anderson Amtrak 2.0 in how say the Silver Meteor's route is served. You may not have the present 97/98 in their present form and instead possibly strung together corridors with a once per day longer distance train running between points in which there is no corridor. I think Anderson sees the three trains you mentioned and the Auto Train as the trains that he supports continueing in their present form as an end to end long distance train with traditional amenities.


That would require either a change in the 750 mile rule or state funding. Looking at the SWC bus proposal, both train segments were to be in excess of 750 miles, so Anderson likely plans with this in mind. To do the same on the SM route, a train from NYP would have to travel at least to Charleston while a train from MIA would have to travel to at least Florence. Charleston doesn't currently have the facilities to turn a train, so that train would likely run to Savannah, which is just the Palmetto. From Miami, Florence may be capable of turning a train, but it would destroy ridership and is not that far from reaching the existing corridors services that feed into New York and Boston. While I wouldn't describe Anderson as pro LD, I don't think he has overall bad intentions and doubt he would intentionally dismantle a train like that without a benefit. It would also be difficult to get equipment to the Hialeah shops with such a setup, as the train to Miami would terminate in a location without terminating trains from NYP or WAS. If Amtrak management wants to try and split up a route, IMO the best test case would be the Crescent, where it could be separated into NYP-ATL and CLT-NOL, which would improve OTP and could setup twice daily service at reasonable times from Charlotte to Atlanta in the absence of state funding.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 30, 2019)

Winecliff Station said:


> I thought that was only for a few more months though....long enough to cover the hardcore last of the snow birds, those who hold out to have a white Christmas and then head south after the holiday season.
> 
> I myself don't see the appeal of the Auto Train...for many people it's still a long drive on both ends. They're possibly missing a large market by not starting in Croton or Albany on one end and finishing in Miami at the other.


I always thought that the point of the auto train was avoiding the costs of gasoline, hotel and meals on the drive down and the cost of the rental car when you arrive. And also the cost of additional auto insurance on your rental car, if you're renting for more than 30 days. (Most insurance policies limit coverage on rental cars to rentals of 30 days or less.) Plus, of course, avoiding 800 miles of driving.

I suspect that the additional costs of having more pick-up and drop-of points, both financial and in terms of running time wouldn't be recovered from the additional passengers they might get from pick-up/drop-offs north of Lorton and south of Sanford. Adding and dropping auto racks at intermediate points would be similar to the bad old days of the early 2000s when the LD trains were constantly delayed by additing and dropping off freight, err "express" cars along the route.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 30, 2019)

The whole point -- and economics -- of the Auto Train is to provide an overnight trip from the northeast to Florida. A consist can be turned at each end every day. Extending the train means a long er time on the train, which railfans would love, but would turn off regular folks, and additional consists, which increases cost. The Auto Train will never run north of Lorton or south of Sanford.


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## sttom (Aug 30, 2019)

MikefromCrete said:


> The whole point -- and economics -- of the Auto Train is to provide an overnight trip from the northeast to Florida. A consist can be turned at each end every day. Extending the train means a long er time on the train, which railfans would love, but would turn off regular folks, and additional consists, which increases cost. The Auto Train will never run north of Lorton or south of Sanford.



An Auto Training running into New Jersey would work financially speaking, *an* Auto Train. For it to work it would need it's own set of equipment. Just like any other potential Auto Train route would. And there are some that would. I would bet Auto Train lines from West Coast cities to Utah would work because of the national parks as well as a few seasonal lines to Arizona. But, Amtrak would need the equipment for that to work.


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## ehbowen (Sep 14, 2019)

sttom said:


> An Auto Training running into New Jersey would work financially speaking, *an* Auto Train. For it to work it would need it's own set of equipment. Just like any other potential Auto Train route would. And there are some that would. I would bet Auto Train lines from West Coast cities to Utah would work because of the national parks as well as a few seasonal lines to Arizona. But, Amtrak would need the equipment for that to work.



OK. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that an _Auto Train_ terminal in New Jersey could support a profitable operation with business from Boston/Connecticut, New York State, and much of the Philadelphia traffic. Now, what happens to the Lorton operation now that its only business is snowbirds from Washington DC and Baltimore? If you shut it down, do you think that the Maryland/DC customers are now going to drive NORTH to New Jersey to catch a train going south? If not, then we lose their business permanently...and the entire operation is weakened.

Time to talk about a New Jersey _A-T_ terminal when _A-T_ is consistently running with and filling up two separate sections every day.


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## west point (Sep 14, 2019)

ehbowen. Now some sanity to the proposal to expand A-T to a north Jersey terminal.
[QUOTE="ehbowen, 

Time to talk about a New Jersey _A-T_ terminal when _A-T_ is consistently running with and filling up two separate sections every day.[/QUOTE]


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## jiml (Sep 14, 2019)

A NJ/NY State Auto Train would be attractive to a large contingent of snowbirds not previously considered - Canadians. A very large number of retired Canadians (and upstate New Yorkers) spend a good part of the winter in Florida. We used to fly down, but huge increases in the cost of car rentals (FL used to be cheapest in US) now make it much more practical to drive - even with a couple of extra hotel nights enroute. I longingly price out the Auto Train every year, but the drive to Lorton is 2 days from here in winter. By the time one gets there the weather is already better and it's just as easy to drive the rest of the way. I wouldn't take anything away from the current Auto Train, but one from upstate NY (Albany, Syracuse?) would attract riders from there, Vermont, Ontario and Quebec. Utica, NY, comes to mind as a location that may have space for a facility with the appropriate rail connections to pull it off.


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## jis (Sep 14, 2019)

Basically the difference in fare that can be charged for a NJ origination vs. Lorton origination at the North end will have to pay for an additional consist and its maintenance, maybe 4 more T&E crew set and at least 1 maybe 2 more OBS set plus additional terminal costs.

The further north you move the north terminal the more consists and crew become necessary.


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## jiml (Sep 14, 2019)

Understood. An upstate train would also have to build in a NJ stop in proximity to NYC to add that market, which would underscore your analysis. Properly planned however, it has the potential to be more successful than the current one - particularly in winter.


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## sttom (Sep 14, 2019)

ehbowen said:


> OK. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that an _Auto Train_ terminal in New Jersey could support a profitable operation with business from Boston/Connecticut, New York State, and much of the Philadelphia traffic. Now, what happens to the Lorton operation now that its only business is snowbirds from Washington DC and Baltimore? If you shut it down, do you think that the Maryland/DC customers are now going to drive NORTH to New Jersey to catch a train going south? If not, then we lose their business permanently...and the entire operation is weakened.
> 
> Time to talk about a New Jersey _A-T_ terminal when _A-T_ is consistently running with and filling up two separate sections every day.



I never said to eliminate the current service for the prospect of starting a New Jersey to Florida service. Shutting down the existing service would make as much sense as shutting down the California Zephyr and replacing it with an Auto Train between Oakland and Salt Lake City. The present Auto Train does very well for itself, why would expanding the capacity (assuming there was equipment) kill the business of the DC train? By that logic the Silver Service should only have one train instead of the 3 that presently run between the Northeast and the south.


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## jis (Sep 14, 2019)

As usual it is a case of spirit may be willing but the flesh is very weak. Given the unfulfilled need for resources to even run the existing system and the general shortage of resources even to address those, it would appear to be quite unlikely that a venture like an additional Auto-Train would be taken up now. Unless of course some private outfit decides to make a go of it. Here is the opportunity for the entrepreneurs among us to take their ideas from the pages of AU and go and make it happen perhaps?


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## jiml (Sep 14, 2019)

It's always fun spending other people's money.


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## sttom (Sep 14, 2019)

Taxes don't fund public spending at the national level in the US, taxes justifies our money's existence and tamps down on inflation. This is the reason why Dick Cheney could say "deficits don't matter" and why Congress went along with it.


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## Seaboard92 (Sep 14, 2019)

Your forgetting another method. What if the upstate New York-Sanford auto train made Lorton a receive/discharge only stop. Thus making it an easy switch to back into a cut of autoracks, and even easier to cut it off. 

The only issue if I remember is in the topography of the area because of a creek on the north end. As to make it efficient one would need to run a switch in off the north end of the Auto Train facility. 

Honestly it shouldn’t take more than ten minutes to do that. We have added multiple PVs in under ten minutes. Where the consist had to back in to us.


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## jis (Sep 14, 2019)

You expect Amtrak which routines takes half an hour to change an engine to shuffle a train in 10 minutes? You are a rank optimist I must say.


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## Qapla (Sep 14, 2019)

If the auto train could start in upper state NY at a location that would make it easier for the residents there and in Canada use the rain - and then go to lorton to join the auto train that now runs ... then, in either Savannah or Jacksonville make another stop to service south Georgia and north Florida including the panhandle and then terminate in Sanford as it does now ...

I don't think the people who ride the train would complain about the extra stops since driving to and from Sandford and Lorton already precludes that the people who use this train are in a hurry and an hour or so delay would not be significant.

Also, the train would not need to run all the way to Miami - Sandford could remain the terminus since snowbirds occupy Florida from the Villages (just south of Ocala) all the way through Orlando to both Tampa and Miami

The larger problem would be the owners of the tracks - they may not want to adjust their schedule to allow for the auto train to run at a slightly different time slot as well as making room for it on the tracks in upper state NY.

Another issue would be rolling stock - in addition to the cost of building loading facilities.


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## jebr (Sep 14, 2019)

An hour added to the timetable may not make or break every passenger, but it might change some. It also cuts into the layover time at the endpoints, making it harder to recover from delays. That would probably cause more issues than the hour in the timetable, honestly.

I also just don't see the success of the Auto Train being easily duplicated, especially at a price point that's basically break-even. The Auto Train has pretty much every factor going for it: a trip that's at least somewhat common, a very large catchment area that doesn't require people to go "out of their way" to get on it, and an endpoint in Florida that has traffic where having your own car is extremely helpful or a huge cost savings. The second one is, in my opinion, the reason that the Auto Train does so well here, and would be hard to replicate elsewhere. Lorton basically is "on the way" for the entire northeast seaboard to get to Orlando and further south, arguably all the way up through Maine. Sure, the further up you go the less likely it is someone will take it, but it's at least positioned so it doesn't feel like you're having to go out of your way to use it. Mix that with the snowbird population as a core customer base (where a rental car is impractical as a substitute) and the math starts working out fairly well. Remove any one of those factors, and I don't think you'd have a terribly successful train.


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## west point (Sep 15, 2019)

Any A-T originating north of WASH is going to run into the present Long Bridge train limit. Until the additional bridge is built CSX is going to be reluctant to allow any additional AMTRAK or VRE trains to pass over Long Bridge. As VRE has hinted it is looking to add another frequency which is being resisted by CSX. Once construction has started on the additional bridge then more service can be looked at. However construction is forecast to take 5 years. Also the 4 tracking of the rest of the WASH - Richmond has started with a favorable ruling but we can probably expect that to take 7 - 10 years in the future.

Expand the capacity of Lorton to allow for a 2nd daily train when enough rolling stock equipment is available seems a first baby step. The second train could be run as a on demand 2nd section. Then start looking for another terminal further north but remember 3 complete train sets will be needed for daily A-T service. Less than daily service for present AMTRAK service IMHO is futile.


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## jiml (Sep 15, 2019)

The current Auto Train seems to be working, although I've never really understood what keeps it viable from May to October. My thought would be a separate seasonal train running from upstate NY to Sanford, bypassing Lorton. In an ideal world, or until new equipment was acquired, it would be comprised of "surplus" (yes I know - what surplus?) Superliners less-needed on western routes in winter. To start it would run 3 times a week to offset equipment shortages and balance space and staffing in Sanford.

I chose Utica, NY, for the starting point. While this may seem like an odd choice, it has a few things in its favor. First, it is a large operating Amtrak station with extra platforms used for excursion trains. Secondly, it is adjacent to the still partially-operational yard and maintenance facility of NYS&W, which could be suitable for rehab or expansion. Finally, it is within one day's drive of Albany, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Toronto, Kingston and Montreal. That's a fairly large population base to draw from.

The train would head south on NYS&W tracks to a stop in New Jersey (via NS/CNY trackage rights) close enough to NYC and Philadelphia, plus nearby points in New Jersey. From there it would head south to join the current route somewhere south of Lorton and away from the congestion of Washington. (I haven't figured that part out yet.) Other than refueling/maintenance enroute there would be no other stops.

I've already conceded equipment is a problem. Go ahead with all the other reasons this won't work, including speed restrictions, bridge clearances (although assume anything an auto-rack can clear is fair game), participating railways, connecting tracks, etc.


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## ShiningTimeStL (Oct 22, 2019)

Palmland said:


> It would seem to me that the best potential new market for Auto Train would be the Chicago area, presumably west of the congested area, to Colorado. The drive through the Great Plains is interesting but those on vacation might like to skip it. If nothing else it would help justify the investment KS and CO have made in the SWC route. Perhaps Pueblo, on I-25, might make a good end point. It’s 2 hrs to Denver, 4.5 to Albuquerque, about 2.5 to the ski areas around Breckinridge.



I absolutely 10000% second this, it makes all the sense in the world to me and has been on my mind quite a bit. Tons and tons of people here in the Midwest go to Colorado for vacation, and they usually drive. Traffic on I-70 can be absolute hell at times. Hell, for that reason I wish we could have the Colorado Eagle back. But still, getting your car onto a train and off the Chicago streets in order to head southwest sounds like a massive incentive for ridership to me. It’s the most American way to travel, a road-rail trip through the west! 

Of course a potential downside of this would be giving Amtrak an excuse to discontinue the California Zephyr. Ideally to me, the Zephyr would continue to be a daily train whereas the “Auto Zephyr” would be a weekend nonstop all-pullman express service. 

One of the biggest obstacles I forsee is somehow managing a passenger auto-loading facility in Chicago. And where? If we’re going for the suburban market, where people have the most cars, which side of town would we put it on? 

ALTERNATIVELY... in order to effectively serve all the major northern midwestern markets, it could run from Kansas City to Denver. I’d call it the ColorAuto Eagle. ;^)


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## Qapla (Oct 22, 2019)

I am not acquainted with the area around Chicago as I haven't been there since 1970 ... but, considering that the Auto Train that now runs:

We could say that the AT runs from Orlando, Fl to Washington DC
In reality, the AT runs from Sanford, Fl to Lorton, Va
The AT runs daily in both directions
The people who use the AT don't seem to ming that it does not originate in Orlando or WDC
Neither of the Silver's stop at the Sanford or Lorton station
With this in mind, it would seem that the same could hold true of an "Auto Train" that would run from Chicago, Ill to Denver, Co.

By using Google maps it looks like it might be better if such a train were to run from somewhere outside of Chicago and/or Denver. Perhaps an AT station could be built near Aurora on the Chicago end and somewhere near Wiggins on the Denver end. This would be just as convenient as Sanford and Lorton.


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## jiml (Oct 23, 2019)

I've always thought Detroit would be a good northern terminus for an Auto Train. Lots of room for a loading facility adjacent to Michigan Central station. Just not sure of an ideal Florida end, whether it could get to the existing one in Sanford by some route or if another more westerly location would make more sense.


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## Qapla (Oct 23, 2019)

If additional AT loading facilities/stations could be built/converted - it would make sense that they should all be interlinked instead of being stand-alone routes. 

Though it would defeat the "through train" working/status of the AT - I would like to see them add at least one additional stop/loading facility to the present AT (perhaps JAX or SAV) Of course, restoring the train from NOL to JAX would make it possible for the AT to connect to one that could run along the bottom of the country

It seems like a connection from Lorton to Chicago should be doable - so connecting the existing AT to one that goes to Denver and beyond should be possible ... now, would it be profitable?


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## Judy Tee (Oct 24, 2019)

jiml said:


> I've always thought Detroit would be a good northern terminus for an Auto Train. Lots of room for a loading facility adjacent to Michigan Central station. Just not sure of an ideal Florida end, whether it could get to the existing one in Sanford by some route or if another more westerly location would make more sense.



I totally agree and would love to see that. Not to mention that it might attract some business from Canada coming through from Windsor. There are a lot of Michiganders who are snowbirds.


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## Qapla (Oct 24, 2019)

There are no direct routes from WDC to Detroit

Now, a terminus in Detroit that went to an AT hub nead Chicago could work


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## jebr (Oct 24, 2019)

I highly doubt that any expansion of the Auto Train would turn a profit, especially after factoring in capital costs (stations, train sets, etc.) The current Auto Train has a lot of factors going for it that most other routes wouldn't: very large population centers within a half-day drive of the terminal, a route where the endpoints are pretty much "on the way" for most of those people making that journey, and a route that both has a lot of families traveling it and a lot of people who relocate each year (with their vehicle) along it. Basically, anyone from the northeast corridor who's going to central/southern Florida would find the Auto Train to be basically "on the way" to their destination, with a half-day's drive or less on either end for most of them. The family and snowbird population is also an important factor - those are ones where having their own vehicle can be especially useful (families for car seats and not having to wrestle with tons of luggage with kids in tow to/from their transportation, and snowbirds because renting a car isn't nearly as economical when it's a three-month rental.) Furthermore, it being only a one-night trip makes it doable for more people and makes equipment use rather efficient.

There's basically no other corridor with all those characteristics. Chicago to the northeast isn't particularly family-heavy, and a lot of people may not even want a car in NYC or DC. Pretty much anywhere from the Midwest to the West has a far smaller capture area; there aren't as many geographical funnels versus the northeast. Someone going from Indianapolis to the Black Hills in South Dakota, for example, might not even get particularly close to Chicago or Denver. Similarly if they're going to Yellowstone - the route doesn't as neatly overlap as Philadelphia - Walt Disney World does for the current Auto Train. If the current Auto Train was making a 30% profit margin after all expenses were accounted for, it might be possible to have these limitations and still be profitable. But the Auto Train isn't _that_ profitable. If we're going to subsidize more train service, and new Auto Trains would almost certainly require subsidies both for capital and operations, I'd much rather focus it on standard intercity rail routes that are able to be used by all travelers. The Auto Train doesn't do that; even if you remove the requirement for a car to ride, the locations that would have the space to run those operations would be in areas that would only be convenient for those with vehicles.


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## Qapla (Oct 24, 2019)

@jebr I agree with those points ... but, this thread seems to have become more of a "what changes would you 'like' to see for the AT" - rather than a "what changes do you think are actually practical" thread

The current AT has a unique set of circumstances:

It runs between a cold climate and a warm climate
It is only one night trip
There are many people who travel from the NE to Fl regularly
The north end has the nation's largest city
The south end has world famous beaches and Disney World
There are not any other routes that have this combination or any other combination to make those in charge think another route would work


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## jiml (Oct 24, 2019)

Judy Tee said:


> I totally agree and would love to see that. Not to mention that it might attract some business from Canada coming through from Windsor. There are a lot of Michiganders who are snowbirds.


That was part of my thought process. Certainly worth the 5-hour drive from Toronto, with area population approaching 7 million. Add in metro Detroit and you might have something. We spend a good chunk of winter in Florida every year and car rentals (after flying) have increased dramatically in the last 3 years. We drive our own car now to keep costs down, and yes - there's lots of Michigan plates there. We're older and can't do the standard 3 day drive any more, so we're talking 4 nights hotel, gas and meals on the way, compared with Auto Train fares. I longingly price out the current Auto Train every year, but it takes 2 days to get to Lorton and, like many Michiganders and others from the Midwest, we winter nowhere near Disney World, so that's another day's drive at the Florida end. The current Auto Train would only save 1 day's drive and associated costs. Going from Detroit to Pensacola, Tallahassee or even a mid-point like Gainesville would be ideal, but even the current Sanford terminal is no more than 1 day's drive from the most popular snowbird destinations and would save Amtrak the cost of a second Florida terminal.


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## Qapla (Oct 24, 2019)

An AT from Chicago to New Orleans might be feasible - especially if the route could be restored from NOL to JAX

I know it won't happen ... but if the route between NOL and Tallahassee were restored it would be nice if it could then turn south and go through Gainesville - linking UF and FSU by train would have some merit if they allowed passengers without cars as well as those with cars on such a dream train.


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## west point (Oct 24, 2019)

Any Midwest Autotrain has one big problem. It will take it over 24 hours to make Sanford. That requires at least 3 train sets probably 4. Fares would need to be twice as high as the present Autotrain to come close to break even. ?That kind of fare will not track !


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## ehbowen (Oct 30, 2019)

Well, if starry-eyed speculation and what-ifs are on topic here...you're talking to the right railfan!

Background for this post: The Santa Fe Railway was on-the-fence about joining Amtrak right up until almost literally the last minute. They had a formal plan under consideration with the ICC to consolidate the _Texas Chief, San Francisco Chief, El Capitan, _and _Super Chief_ and to continue operating them privately, _a la_ Union Pacific's _"City of Everywhere"._ But this plan was contingent upon discontinuing their other passenger trains, especially the little-patronized Nos. 23 & 24, the ex-_Grand Canyon_. When this permission was denied, Santa Fe threw in the towel and joined Amtrak.

In my alternate reality, the Point Of Departure is May 1st, 1971. Santa Fe has looked at the up-front cost to join Amtrak (it was hefty) and said, "Screw it." They have chosen to continue to operate their passenger fleet on their own nickel, albeit out of La Salle Street Station in Chicago as they were only a tenant at Dearborn and Amtrak wanted confiscatory amounts of rent to allow them to use Union Station. The cash-strapped Rock Island, on the other hand, would likely have welcomed them with open arms as long as they carried their share of expenses plus a little bit. Now, faced with the necessity to keep operating the former _Grand Canyon_ for the next five years, Santa Fe decides to turn it from a boat anchor into an asset.

In this what-if proposal, Nos. 23 and 24 continue to operate as regular passenger trains between Chicago and Los Angeles on their then-current route. Passengers can continue to book coach or sleeper (I'm assuming sleepers would be added back in) between any of the one-hundred plus (seriously!) stations these trains served. But Santa Fe also, as a matter of policy dating back to WWII and even beyond, routinely operated fast freight trains as second sections of their secondary passenger trains. In this case, the second section is auto carriers.

My eastern terminus for the auto carrier second section would be Coal City, Illinois, just south-southwest of Chicago (about an hour's drive) and convenient to Interstates 55 and 80 and with plenty of room to build an auto carrier terminal. Departure time would be just after 10 am; cutoff time for auto loading would be 9 am. The auto carriers would run with the passenger train as far as Henrietta, Missouri. There auto carriers with cars bound for Kansas City would be cut off and carriers with autos from the east with drivers who wanted to bypass the Kansas City congestion would be added. I'm presuming that the switching crews could be as prompt as back in the day when passenger cars were cut in and out; the train was seldom delayed more than 5-10 minutes. Departure time from Henrietta would be about 4:45 in the afternoon.

Station stop in Kansas City proper would be about 5:45-6 pm. Once out of Kansas City, auto carriers would again be picked up and dropped in Lawrence, Kansas not quite an hour later. Then the train would continue through the night, again as a regular passenger train, arriving Lamy, NM about 10 am or Albuquerque about 11. I'd put an auto carrier terminal in one of those two cities (or possibly Bernalillo) depending on where land for its construction was available and cheap. I'd also consider another auto terminal for the Grand Canyon at either Flagstaff or Williams Junction; arrival there would be about six in the evening.

The train would arrive in the Los Angeles area a bit early to shuffle passengers. Fortunately, this is a train; the coaches and sleepers carrying passengers with autos could be cut out in, say, San Bernardino and the autos unloaded while the passengers are sleeping in until 7 or so and find their cars ready to pick up after breakfast. The remainder of the passenger train would arrive Los Angeles about 6:30 in the morning.

For the eastbound trip, passengers would depart LAUPT at 9 pm; autos would be added in San Berdoo at 11 pm; Flagstaff would be reached at 11:15 the next morning and Albuquerque or Lamy about 5:30 in the evening; Lawrence at 11:15 on the second morning and Henrietta at 1:30 that afternoon, and the auto carriers would terminate in Coal City at 7:45 with the passenger cars arriving La Salle St. in Chicago at 9 pm.

So, if I can get the bugs worked out of the time machine, would anyone want to buy a ticket?


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## ehbowen (Oct 30, 2019)

Oh, keep in mind that during my proposed time frame Interstate 40 was still largely under construction and much of Old Route 66 was still in use as the main artery from the upper Midwest to southern California...


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## Rail Freak (Oct 30, 2019)

Qapla said:


> An AT from Chicago to New Orleans might be feasible - especially if the route could be restored from NOL to JAX
> 
> I know it won't happen ... but if the route between NOL and Tallahassee were restored it would be nice if it could then turn south and go through Gainesville - linking UF and FSU by train would have some merit if they allowed passengers without cars as well as those with cars on such a dream train.


That would be sweet!!!


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