# Fuel costs?



## caravanman (May 14, 2022)

Are there any "reasonable" estimates available for what it costs in diesel fuel to run two locomotive with an average consist from Chicago to Emeryville, or Chicago to Los Angeles?


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## jis (May 14, 2022)

This thread on trains.com may be of interest in this context:





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Diesel MPG - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms


Trains magazine offers railroad news, railroad industry insight, commentary on today's freight railroads, passenger service (Amtrak), locomotive technology, railroad preservation and history, railfan opportunities (tourist railroads, fan trips), and great railroad photography.



cs.trains.com


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## highfalutin (Aug 4, 2022)

I'm very interested in this question, as I've been doing some research into the climate impacts of Amtrak travel vs. air travel. Amtrak must know exactly how many gallons of diesel it takes to operate a single run of the California Zephyr, for example. Is there anyone in this forum who has access to that data?


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## Qapla (Aug 4, 2022)

This article my help





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AMTRAK FUEL CONSUMPTION STUDY






trid.trb.org


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## highfalutin (Aug 4, 2022)

Qapla said:


> This article my help
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's very interesting! I wasn't aware of the Volpe (National Transportation Systems) Center. This particular article is over 30 years old, but it's a good lead nonetheless.


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## Qapla (Aug 4, 2022)

highfalutin said:


> This particular article is over 30 years old



So is much of Amtrak's equipment


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## highfalutin (Aug 4, 2022)

Great point.

The author of this article does an admirable job of trying to _estimate_ the fuel consumption of Amtrak trains in one region of the country:

Savings in per-passenger CO2 emissions using rail rather than air travel in the northeastern U.S.

But as he points out, we really need more granular, specific data.


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## Mr.Technician (Aug 4, 2022)

highfalutin said:


> Thanks, that's very interesting! I wasn't aware of the Volpe (National Transportation Systems) Center. This particular article is over 30 years old, but it's a good lead nonetheless.


40 years, actually!


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## rs9 (Aug 5, 2022)

On the note of climate impacts: in doing this research myself, one thing I learned is that the overall warming impact of flying is essentially double whatever the impact of a plane's CO2 emissions are. This is because planes emit water vapor, nitrous oxides and soot that also have greenhouse effects.

I've read numerous studies on the plane vs. Amtrak debate, and there are different conclusions reached. Some studies say after 600 miles, plane travel becomes more efficient. I also read about a theoretical DC-Spokane non-stop flight vs. Amtrak, where the expert said the train would provide a 60% reduction in CO2 emissions.

So while we might not have a readily accessible answer yet, the tipping point for me is the Tier IV Siemens locomotives that are being rolled out. With estimated 10-16% fuel savings and 95% reduction in particulates (including nitrous oxides) that are harmful to humans, if nothing else Amtrak wins from the pollution standpoint.


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## Qapla (Aug 5, 2022)

rs9 said:


> Some studies say after 600 miles, plane travel becomes more efficient



Don't know about 600 miles being a magic number ... but I will have to agree that if you are planning to go 600 miles east out of NYC the plane is certainly a better option than the train - heading west or south is another story altogether.


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## highfalutin (Aug 10, 2022)

rs9 said:


> On the note of climate impacts: in doing this research myself, one thing I learned is that the overall warming impact of flying is essentially double whatever the impact of a plane's CO2 emissions are. This is because planes emit water vapor, nitrous oxides and soot that also have greenhouse effects.



Planes are also pumping C02 directly into higher strata of the atmosphere, and that alone multiplies the "radiative forcing" effect (a.k.a. greenhouse effect) by 1.9–2.7.

@Qapla  Yes I'm still waiting for the Chunnel to be extended a bit farther so I can take the Eurostar from NYC to Paris at 320 kilometers per hour. (And Amtrak will have trained me well for the 18-hour journey.)


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## MARC Rider (Aug 11, 2022)

highfalutin said:


> @Qapla  Yes I'm still waiting for the Chunnel to be extended a bit farther so I can take the Eurostar from NYC to Paris at 320 kilometers per hour. (And Amtrak will have trained me well for the 18-hour journey.)


Better read "Tunnel through the Deeps" before you get too excited about the prospect. OK, so that novel is set in a parallel universe, but it was pointed out that anyone building a transatlantic tunnel would have to deal with crossing the Mid-Atlantic Rift, an active seismic zone where the European and North American tectonic plates are moving apart. Also, I'm not sure I'd want to be in a train with a mechanical problem while hurtling through a tube at abyssal depths.


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## Qapla (Aug 12, 2022)

Wait till they build "The Fall" from Australia to the UK


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