# best amtrak myth



## yarrow (Dec 1, 2009)

over the years, i have heard some wonderful amtrak myths. i remember a few years ago on this board the myth was circulated by a few that as of a certain date there would be massive route cuts. a while back, i read somewhere that the ppcs were going to be transferred to the eb. i had a lsa on the cs tell me once that the reason for the chronic lateness of the train was not the u.p. but stops for smoke breaks. what are your favorite amtrak myths from over the years?


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## transit54 (Dec 1, 2009)

An assistant conductor once told me that next year the Vermonter's route would be upgraded to 79 MPH. Given that most the route is still using jointed track and the train operates on track warrants (versus signaling) north of White River Jct (and perhaps even before that), that's laughably unlikely...

There is an application for federal HSR funds to do that now, but who knows that chance of it getting funded, let along a timeline for completion...


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## gswager (Dec 1, 2009)

"Oh, is there Amtrak? What is that?"


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## George Harris (Dec 1, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> An assistant conductor once told me that next year the Vermonter's route would be upgraded to 79 MPH. Given that most the route is still using jointed track and the train operates on track warrants (versus signaling) north of White River Jct (and perhaps even before that), that's laughably unlikely...
> There is an application for federal HSR funds to do that now, but who knows that chance of it getting funded, let along a timeline for completion...


It is the lack of signalling rather thna the jointed rail that makes 79 mph unlikely north of WRJ. The nature of t he curves on the line make going much faster in the limited locations where they can not really worth while. (Much of the route of the Southwest Chief across Kansas and Colorado is still in jointed rail and has a 79 mph speed limit.. When the AT&SF had a 100 mph speed limit for much of this distance it was all on jointed rail.)

The Boston to Montreal high speed scheme is at least old enough to vote, and still nothing but a few reports. No real work at all anywhere.


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## the_traveler (Dec 1, 2009)

Another good one is speeding up the Adirondack's route. The only way that would be possible is either build the track on, over or under Lake Champlain, or tunnel under the Adirondack Mountains for the full length - in order to get straight track! The route follows the shoreline, so there are no other choices!


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## Jersey Jeff (Dec 1, 2009)

gswager said:


> "Oh, is there Amtrak? What is that?"


That is usually the reaction I get from Pittsburghers when I tell them that I arrived in their fair city via Amtrak. :blink: :blink:


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 1, 2009)

yarrow said:


> over the years, i have heard some wonderful amtrak myths. i remember a few years ago on this board the myth was circulated by a few that as of a certain date there would be massive route cuts. a while back, i read somewhere that the ppcs were going to be transferred to the eb. i had a lsa on the cs tell me once that the reason for the chronic lateness of the train was not the u.p. but stops for smoke breaks. what are your favorite amtrak myths from over the years?


Hot off the press: The Sunset Ltd. will start running again east of New Orleans when the next schedule takes effect in ________!!!(fill in the blanks with month and year!! :lol: )

The Eagle will become a daily train from CHI-LAX when the next schedule takes effect in ______________!!!(ditto! :lol: )

Diners will be on the CL and LSL and Cardinal soon as Beech Grove gets 'em ready!!(this one will eventually be true in the case of the LSL and CL but probably not the Card! :lol: )

And as with every route, various and sundry rumours, hot tips, gossip etc. from OBS/conductors/agents and best of all Amtrak Unlimiteds members and guests! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## darien-l (Dec 1, 2009)

Jersey Jeff said:


> gswager said:
> 
> 
> > "Oh, is there Amtrak? What is that?"
> ...


That reminds me of trying to find the train station in Houston! My cab driver had no idea where it was. We stopped to ask for directions a bunch of times, and no one knew either. The response I got most often was "train station? I didn't know we had a train station!" Eventually the cabbie had to call dispatch, have them look it up, and give him turn-by-turn directions.


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## darien-l (Dec 1, 2009)

So I'd say that the best, or at least most common myth about Amtrak is "there is no Amtrak in my town." This is closely followed by either "Amtrak is ghetto / for poor people" or "Amtrak is too expensive."


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## darien-l (Dec 1, 2009)

Another thing I hear often is "won't I be forced to share my sleeper compartment with strangers?"


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## MattW (Dec 1, 2009)

I once had someone tell me trains couldn't go over 100mph after I mentioned the NEC once.

I think I've had people believe that the Northeast is the only place there's passenger service.

I've also seen/head all sorts of "this line will be electrified" rumors.


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## Big Iron (Dec 1, 2009)

More of a fantasy than a myth...........viewliner dome cars.


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## Acela150 (Dec 1, 2009)

That Acela Express was to start in the fall of 99'.

Stephen


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## the_traveler (Dec 1, 2009)

That *NOBODY* ever rides Amtrak! 

Over Thanksgiving Weekend, the news reported how many people drove or flew. I think they even mentioned buses. But I did not hear trains mentioned at all!

I happened to be at WLY on Saturday afternoon between 1:10 and 1:25. During those 15 minutes, I saw 2 southbound trains *AND* 4 northbound trains - for a total of *6 trains in 15 minutes*!  But nobody rides trains!


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## George Harris (Dec 1, 2009)

At the very start of Amtrak, with its multiple train-offs, there appeared in the Memphis newspaper the possibility that the Chicago to Florida train would be in essence the City of Miami, but routed through Memphis and then to Birmingham on the Frisco. This actually made more sense than what actually happened, which was the completely snake-bit Floridian following the South Wind route and then multiple permutations between Chicago and Nashville as the Penn Central fell apart.

Have no idea if the Chicago-Memphis-Birmingham route was ever considered or iif it was just a dream for those in Memphis that were interested in passenger trains. The schedule would have been about 3 hours longer than the all ICRR route through Jackson TN.

How about starting one using part of this idea? This one could start at any time:

Chicago to Memphis as part of the City of New Orleans

Memphis to Birmingham on its own (BNSF ex Frisco)

Make conections with the Crescent at Birmingham

Birmingham to Tallahassee to Jacksonville on CSX, then Jacksonville to Orlando or Miami on the line currently used by Amtrak.


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## savoirfaire (Dec 1, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Hot off the press: The Sunset Ltd. will start running again east of New Orleans when the next schedule takes effect in ________!!!(fill in the blanks with month and year!! :lol: )The Eagle will become a daily train from CHI-LAX when the next schedule takes effect in ______________!!!(ditto! :lol: )


Jim,

These are the equivalent of Amtrak MadLibs!

-Sav :lol:


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## saxman (Dec 1, 2009)

One I overheard recently:

The reason the Capitol Limited uses the nicer Superliner equipment and not single level cars is because the politicians in Washington require Amtrak to use the nicer equipment to their city, and give everyone else out east the crappy stuff.

Another similar note is that NYP-PHL commuters often complain that the fare is higher between NYP and PHL than NYP and WAS. They say the politicians set the Amtrak fares for themselves to make they, the politicians, have a cheaper ride from WAS.

And a few of my favorites:

-The government should just buy everyone a first class plane ticket for all of Amtrak's riders.

-Amtrak is subsidized for poor people.

-It takes 3 days to get from Chicago to Washington DC.

-A video off youtube has a guy counting 6 heads from where he is standing outside the train as it moves by. So he assumes only 6 people were on the train at the time.


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## wayman (Dec 1, 2009)

saxman said:


> Another similar note is that NYP-PHL commuters often complain that the fare is higher between NYP and PHL than NYP and WAS.


Is there a typo here...? Surely you meant PHL-NYP vs PHL-WAS?

In which case they're complaining about ... $1? ($45 vs $44 for low-bucket)


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## saxman (Dec 1, 2009)

wayman said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > Another similar note is that NYP-PHL commuters often complain that the fare is higher between NYP and PHL than NYP and WAS.
> ...


Nope, wasn't a typo. I meant they were complaining that NYP to PHL was more than NYP to WAS. Some said they would buy a cheaper ticket to WAS and just get off in PHL. It's on several videos on YouTube if you want to search.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 1, 2009)

darien-l said:


> Jersey Jeff said:
> 
> 
> > gswager said:
> ...


This reminds me of the morning when I was trackside at the MARTA Arts Center Station in Atlanta. Waiting for my subway to work in downtown Atlanta. Up walks up a man wanting to know which of these trains goes to New Orleans.

He had told the cabbie he wanted the "train station". We often refer to MARTA rail as "the train" here so I guess that was the misunderstanding. I took him upstairs myself and pointed him to the number 23 bus and told him he had time to get the "real" train.


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## GG-1 (Dec 2, 2009)

Jersey Jeff said:


> gswager said:
> 
> 
> > "Oh, is there Amtrak? What is that?"
> ...


Aloha

That's close to what was said to me by the Fountainbleu Hotel when I requested a taxi to the Miami train Station, that was after They Asked, "Are there trains in Miami?"


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## AlanB (Dec 2, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Another good one is speeding up the Adirondack's route. The only way that would be possible is either build the track on, over or under Lake Champlain, or tunnel under the Adirondack Mountains for the full length - in order to get straight track! The route follows the shoreline, so there are no other choices!


Actually there are places that the Adirondack's route can be sped up, like the border crossing at something like 5 MPH because of the poor track conditions. More passing sidings in NY State to allow for better meets, perhaps even rolling meets. And there are places where the train could run faster if the track conditions were better.

No, it will never be a high speed route, for the very reasons that you mentioned. But they could shave at least a half an hour if not possibly an hour off run time with improvements.

And if they reroute to Lucien-L'Allier station instead of Gare Centrale, that could take out the customs stop, which would also cut out the allowance for customs in the schedule, making the train run seem shorter to people. No one ever adds in the customs times to airplanes, yet Amtrak must do so right now with the Adirondack and the Leaf. They don't have to do that with the Cascades, since customs occurs in Vancouver station after the train arrives.


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## AlanB (Dec 2, 2009)

Actually the biggest myth about Amtrak was the one sold to Congress and President Nixon back when Amtrak was created. That myth of course was that Amtrak would somehow be profitable. And it's a myth that has haunted Amtrak for all of its years.

How anyone ever expected to take a bunch of money loosing passenger RR's, roll them into one big company, and somehow suddenly and miraculously turn it into a profitable business is beyond me. I could see with the right management and circumstances (like not having to beg each year for money), how Amtrak might be able to one day reach a point where it covers its operating expenses. But it will always need help with capital expenses, especially for as long as it continues to own track.


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## George Harris (Dec 2, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Actually the biggest myth about Amtrak was the one sold to Congress and President Nixon back when Amtrak was created. That myth of course was that Amtrak would somehow be profitable. And it's a myth that has haunted Amtrak for all of its years.


It was a lie and almost everyone involved knew it was a lie. Probably the only people that did not were the politiicians, who alwasy seem to be operating under the halluciatnion that the government can do things more efficiently than the private businesses that had been doing them.

Getting rid of about half the passenger trains running on A-day minus one did help carry the hallucination forward, becuase suddenly it was costing less nationally to run trains than it had been. No one in congress seemed to be alble to grasp that there were a lot less trains running.


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## Shanghai (Dec 2, 2009)

George Harris said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Actually the biggest myth about Amtrak was the one sold to Congress and President Nixon back when Amtrak was created. That myth of course was that Amtrak would somehow be profitable. And it's a myth that has haunted Amtrak for all of its years.
> ...


And our Congress hasn't changed much over all the years. Now they think we can add 30 million uninsured people to our healthcare system and *reduce*

the cost of care for all of us!!


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## guestlsa (Dec 2, 2009)

that weird why everymajor hliday they always talking bout people flying or taking buses or even driving but when I work 89/90 this past weeknd we took over 300 to savannah and brought 315 to new york!



the_traveler said:


> That *NOBODY* ever rides Amtrak!
> Over Thanksgiving Weekend, the news reported how many people drove or flew. I think they even mentioned buses. But I did not hear trains mentioned at all!
> 
> I happened to be at WLY on Saturday afternoon between 1:10 and 1:25. During those 15 minutes, I saw 2 southbound trains *AND* 4 northbound trains - for a total of *6 trains in 15 minutes*!  But nobody rides trains!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 2, 2009)

guestlsa said:


> that weird why everymajor hliday they always talking bout people flying or taking buses or even driving but when I work 89/90 this past weeknd we took over 300 to savannah and brought 315 to new york!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can hear them mention planes and cars

You can hear them mention planes, cars and trains

You can hear them mention planes, cars and buses

What you can almost never hear is planes, cars, buses and trains.

Surprisingly our local NBC affiliate, Eleven Alive, has been known to go to the Amtrak station at holidays and film the crowds. It actually has happened for which I am most grateful. It did not happen this year, though, so far as I know. I remember there used to be a train buff on their photo staff and maybe he kinda saw to that.

Sadly=======and, no, this is not a sick joke=====he was actually run over and killed by the Crescent one night doing that very thing. But no, they did not stop the coverage because of that. That happened maybe 20 years ago, lots of water over the dam. I am kind of suggesting that having that railfan on their staff may have influenced them a little more. But actually they are quite close to the station, closer than I am.

In fact, I remember writing a letter of complaint to Eleven Alive one time because of their coverage, something about how slow the train is compared to the plane and I explained they needed to compare it with the bus instead. I got a nice letter back.


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## VentureForth (Dec 2, 2009)

"We're scheduled to arrive on time today"


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## Bierboy (Dec 2, 2009)

I was talking to a kid yesterday at a store who saw my Glacier National Park jacket and mentioned that his uncle lived near there. Told him I'd taken the train to Montana, and he said he should look into that. Turns out his uncle lives in Whitefish, and I told him the EB actually stops there. He was really impressed. I guess it's not a myth, but so many folks have no idea that Amtrak serves cities they're supposedly familiar with...


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## wayman (Dec 2, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> I was talking to a kid yesterday at a store who saw my Glacier National Park jacket and mentioned that his uncle lived near there. Told him I'd taken the train to Montana, and he said he should look into that. Turns out his uncle lives in Whitefish, and I told him the EB actually stops there. He was really impressed. I guess it's not a myth, but so many folks have no idea that Amtrak serves cities they're supposedly familiar with...


Publicity can go a long way -- I hope Amtrak starts to do much more with this, targeted to local markets where awareness is low (I'm thinking Atlanta, Houston, and smaller places like Whitefish). Lynchburg has always had decent numbers on the Crescent, but with the publicity blitz surrounding the new Regional, hundreds of folks came to the inaugural celebration and more importantly, _hundreds are riding it on some days_. With a second train, and more importantly with advertising, daily ridership from Lynchburg has probably, on average, gone up by at least a factor of five. (I'm eager to see the official statistics when they're published.)

The Saturday before Thanksgiving (not Thanksgiving weekend), 236 passengers boarded the Regional in Lynchburg. No, that's not a typo. That's straight from the station agent, who said it was an all-time record, but that it's several times been well above 100 and close to 200 since service began, and regularly much higher than predicted. It wasn't a one-time fluke (but it was connected to the start of Liberty University's absurd week-long Thanksgiving holiday).

Ridership has been high enough that (a) Kemper St Station may have to enlarge its parking facilities, and (b) there are already some quiet discussions among the VA legislature, Amtrak, and NS about whether it's possible to extend service to Roanoke ahead of the original "maybe in three years" plan.

There are some major logistical issues with that last one which make it extremely unlikely -- they just built new tracks and platform extensions in Lynchburg including the all-important overnight storage siding; hired additional station personnel and coach cleaners and maintenance crew based in Lynchburg; and most importantly have a wye right there to turn the train. In Roanoke, none of that exists (including no easy wye, so they may have to run two engines back-to-back and run them around the consist at the Roanoke end, not to mention the investment in trackwork in Lynchburg becomes somewhat wasted...). And of course, no current Amtrak station in Roanoke -- it's relatively easy (as these things go) to add a second daily frequency when you've got a great station like Lynchburg's already in place, but much harder when you're starting from scratch to add a first train!

But just the fact that they're already discussing at any level it is pretty astonishing. If you build it -- _and advertise it_ -- they will come. People will come, Mr. Boardman. People will most definitely come.


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## DaveKCMO (Dec 2, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> I was talking to a kid yesterday at a store who saw my Glacier National Park jacket and mentioned that his uncle lived near there. Told him I'd taken the train to Montana, and he said he should look into that. Turns out his uncle lives in Whitefish, and I told him the EB actually stops there. He was really impressed. I guess it's not a myth, but so many folks have no idea that Amtrak serves cities they're supposedly familiar with...


it appalls me when any town with amtrak service **and nothing else** won't make that part of their marketing strategy. it's standard issue here in missouri for the smaller towns on the river runner route to recommend amtrak to visitors.


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## transit54 (Dec 2, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> I was talking to a kid yesterday at a store who saw my Glacier National Park jacket and mentioned that his uncle lived near there. Told him I'd taken the train to Montana, and he said he should look into that. Turns out his uncle lives in Whitefish, and I told him the EB actually stops there. He was really impressed. I guess it's not a myth, but so many folks have no idea that Amtrak serves cities they're supposedly familiar with...


It's also interesting how people only see the train in a certain context. Several times a year I'll spend an evening in Montpelier or Waterbury, VT. Rather than driving, I take a commuter bus down and I'll take the Vermonter back. I get asked all the time, "Are you going to spend the night in Montpelier/Waterbury?" and when I reply that I'm taking the train back, I routinely hear, "I didn't know there was a train!" Then I'll go on to explain that yes, there is a train called the Vermonter and it goes all the way to Washington, DC. The second I mention that almost everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about and will say, "Oh, I didn't realize you were talking about that train!" People think about it when they think about traveling a sizable distance, but they don't consider it for a 30 or 40 mile journey. Actually, most people around here have heard of the train but don't know much about it or have ever taken it.


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## saxman (Dec 2, 2009)

When I lived in Grand Forks, a college town in North Dakota, the Empire Builder stopped there at 1 AM and 5 AM. Even with those middle of the night call times, I would say at least 4 out of 5 people knew about the train. Many students would take it to Minot, or Williston. One guy in my dorm took Amtrak home to Milwaukee almost every month or more it seemed. He said he would never drive. Another few were from Havre and Malta, MT and they alway took the train instead of making the 10 hour drive down US 2 which is mostly two lanes west of Williston.

Now contrast that with my area now. Even though Dallas and Fort Worth receive pretty decent service in the middle of the day, I always get that look....what? there's a train here. Many do know about the local light rail and commuter rail systems, but thats about it. But I do know one girl that thought trains were only for "stuff", not people. "What, there're trains that people can ride on??"


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## JAChooChoo (Dec 2, 2009)

*Amtrak is on the Glidepath to profitabilty * _George Warrington_


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 2, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Actually the biggest myth about Amtrak was the one sold to Congress and President Nixon back when Amtrak was created. That myth of course was that Amtrak would somehow be profitable. And it's a myth that has haunted Amtrak for all of its years.
> How anyone ever expected to take a bunch of money loosing passenger RR's, roll them into one big company, and somehow suddenly and miraculously turn it into a profitable business is beyond me. I could see with the right management and circumstances (like not having to beg each year for money), how Amtrak might be able to one day reach a point where it covers its operating expenses. But it will always need help with capital expenses, especially for as long as it continues to own track.


I could see how they would have thought that. It makes sense on some levels. Like the New York-Chicago routes. They were thinking that if you channel all the passengers on to one train, you are drastically cutting overhead and thus likely producing a profit. Obviously, they are highly ignorant of the nature of train travel, but its not unreasonable to think that.



Shanghai said:


> And our Congress hasn't changed much over all the years. Now they think we can add 30 million uninsured people to our healthcare system and *reduce*the cost of care for all of us!!


Actually, in this case I thoroughly believe that. Health care prices are insanely inflated. I took my girlfriend to the ER for a simply CTscan. Price? $9600. When the insurance company was done throwing out gratuitous charges and paying what it was actually worth, the price was more like $800.

I think if you were to put a very efficient team in place to make costs and prices sane and reasonable, you will find that the promise will come true...

We can discuss the fact that "government run" and "efficient" are mutually exclusive as Amtrak is probably about the most cost efficient government agency.



JAChooChoo said:


> *Amtrak is on the Glidepath to profitabilty * _George Warrington_


Myth: a widely held but false belief or idea. _See "Paradiddle"_

Monumental and Fatuous Mega-Lie: A complete and total recital of information that is completely and totally untrue, fully known by the person producing it and anyone with even a minor inkling of the situation. _See "complete bu11$h*t"_

There is a difference between a myth and total lie on the part of one of the biggest ego-maniacs to ever walk the halls of our generally egotistical Capitol.

By the way, profitability wasn't what he said. What he said was "self-sufficiency".


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## DowneasterPassenger (Dec 3, 2009)

"Amtrak is ALWAYS late."


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## Konrad (Dec 3, 2009)

yarrow said:


> over the years, i have heard some wonderful amtrak myths. i remember a few years ago on this board the myth was circulated by a few that as of a certain date there would be massive route cuts. a while back, i read somewhere that the ppcs were going to be transferred to the eb. i had a lsa on the cs tell me once that the reason for the chronic lateness of the train was not the u.p. but stops for smoke breaks. what are your favorite amtrak myths from over the years?


'Guaranteed Connection'

Oh, you mean the train you were expecting to catch?

In the same standard of accommodation??

Arriving on the same day???


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## rrdude (Dec 3, 2009)

darien-l said:


> Another thing I hear often is "won't I be forced to share my sleeper compartment with strangers?"


Could be fun,...............or NOT.


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## DivMiler (Dec 3, 2009)

wayman said:


> ... daily ridership from Lynchburg has probably, on average, gone up by at least a factor of five. (I'm eager to see the official statistics when they're published.)


Where does one find the official passenger statistics for a given station? I saw it once (maybe AlanB mentioned it), but didn't save the link, unfortunately. It might have been a PDF file.


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## rrdude (Dec 3, 2009)

Shanghai said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


If you took a CLOSE look at the WASTE in the HC field now, you might change your mind...... I felt as you did at one time, dug in deep to all options, and am now of the opinion that indeed it can.......Now AMTRAK is another matter.....


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## rrdude (Dec 3, 2009)

> Sadly=======and, no, this is not a sick joke=====he was actually run over and killed by the Crescent one night doing that very thing. But no, they did not stop the coverage because of that. That happened maybe 20 years ago, lots of water over the dam. I am kind of suggesting that having that railfan on their staff may have influenced them a little more. But actually they are quite close to the station, closer than I am.


No Sh**? The guy was doing a story on rail travel and got run over and killed? I'd love to read about that.............


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 3, 2009)

rrdude said:


> > Sadly=======and, no, this is not a sick joke=====he was actually run over and killed by the Crescent one night doing that very thing. But no, they did not stop the coverage because of that. That happened maybe 20 years ago, lots of water over the dam. I am kind of suggesting that having that railfan on their staff may have influenced them a little more. But actually they are quite close to the station, closer than I am.
> 
> 
> No Sh**? The guy was doing a story on rail travel and got run over and killed? I'd love to read about that.............



That is correct. I probably have the old newspaper clippings here.

It was treated respectfully as a news story and as an obit. He had been working for several years at that, it is not as if he did not know what he was doing and then just went out one time to shoot a train and got run over immediately.

Probably about 20 years ago I guess, I have lived here near the station about 32 years so saying it happened about 20 years ago sounds and feels about right. I seem to think it as being during about 1970 to 1979 when the train was known as the "Southern Crescent". I think the guy's name was Jimmy Harmon.

A dining car employe, Lewis Price, was featured in several ads in several publications for his made from scratch buiscuits. He died one morning when the northbound Crescent jumped the tracks in Virginia. He was starting to get breakfast ready. He was the only fatality as I remember.


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## AlanB (Dec 3, 2009)

DivMiler said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > ... daily ridership from Lynchburg has probably, on average, gone up by at least a factor of five. (I'm eager to see the official statistics when they're published.)
> ...


Here.


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## wayman (Dec 3, 2009)

AlanB said:


> DivMiler said:
> 
> 
> > wayman said:
> ...


Thanks, Alan.

The numbers for LYH in 2008 and 2007 are fascinating. 25,383 in 2008; 18,744 in 2007. That's a 40% increase from 2007 to 2008. (That's "station usage", boardings plus alightings; to get "ridership", take just boardings, but the percentage change remains the same.) Compared with 11% systemwide ridership increase from 2007 to 2008, that's a huge difference.

25,383 = about 17 passengers detraining 20, 17 boarding 20, 17 detraining 19, and 17 boarding 19 on average per day in 2008. That sounds about right to me -- I'd say it's about 15 on most days and 40 on holidays in my experience, which works out.

For 2009, the first nine months might be roughly the same dailies -- just the Crescent, and if LYH continues to perform "better than national average" it might have seen zero loss/growth (while nationally ridership dropped off some). And the last three months will be much higher -- two trains, plus some additional upturn in ridership due to economic recovery. I'd estimate 9 replacing each 17 above for the Crescent, plus 55 boardings and 55 alightings for the Regional on an average day ... which gives 146 total per day, just over double (not quintuple). Of course, the bulk of that is the new train, and the loss of riders on the Crescent from LYH is made up by more riders elsewhere -- they're not losing any passengers there.

My prediction is 32,485 for LYH in 2009, and 70,080 for LYH in 2010 (over its first full year of operation, the Regional will nearly triple station usage at LYH). Though ... if they report FY numbers (Oct-Sep) for station usage instead of calendar year numbers (Jan-Dec) the numbers will be different:

I'd guess 25,383 for LYH FY 2009 (Crescent-only all year) and 67,160 (both trains all year) for LYH FY 2010.


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## Phila 30th St (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm a fan of "Amtrak is always late".


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## DET63 (Dec 3, 2009)

From Reason.com: Amtrak Sucks: Traveling Soviet-style aboard America's $30,000,000,000.00 nostalgia toy

Google "reason magazine" and "Amtrak" and you'll probably come up with lots of headlines that most here would dismiss as myths.


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## oldtimer (Dec 3, 2009)

As far as myths; How about* "**Satisfaction Guaranteed**"*

:blink: :blink: :blink:


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## Neil_M (Dec 3, 2009)

DET63 said:


> From Reason.com: Amtrak Sucks: Traveling Soviet-style aboard America's $30,000,000,000.00 nostalgia toy


Loving the comic book, is it a bird, is it a plane? No, it's Amtrakman!


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## jis (Dec 3, 2009)

DET63 said:


> From Reason.com: Amtrak Sucks: Traveling Soviet-style aboard America's $30,000,000,000.00 nostalgia toy
> Google "reason magazine" and "Amtrak" and you'll probably come up with lots of headlines that most here would dismiss as myths.


The word Reason in the name of that organization is just aspirational. Unreason would be more realistic.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 3, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > From Reason.com: Amtrak Sucks: Traveling Soviet-style aboard America's $30,000,000,000.00 nostalgia toy
> ...


Fantastic! Once I quit rolling around laughing I'll finish this post! :lol:

Really good satire, especially the "old timer foamers and rail buffs", the blame UP is another highlight! Good thing that none of our members would ever be like this and that Amtrak is so well run and has such "World Class" Service! :lol:

there's an old saying about those that can't laugh @ themselves will end up crying, amen brother!


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## DivMiler (Dec 3, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Here.


(Above is link to state-by-state station information).

Thanks, AlanB!


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## George Harris (Dec 3, 2009)

jis said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > From Reason.com: Amtrak Sucks: Traveling Soviet-style aboard America's $30,000,000,000.00 nostalgia toy
> ...


"Reason" "Wendell Cox" and a few others like them are wind up dolls. Pull their string and they will come up iwth the same statements every time. It is very simple, If it any form of passenger carrying rail system, it is either a waste of money to build and operate, has no ridership, a blight on the landscape, or whatever. An analysis of who funds these operations would seem well worth doing.


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## AlanB (Dec 3, 2009)

oldtimer2 said:


> As far as myths; How about* "**Satisfaction Guaranteed**"*:blink: :blink: :blink:


Actually that wasn't a myth, Amtrak handed out thousands of vouchers for millions of dollars because of that program.


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## sunchaser (Dec 3, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


That was so funny! But of course at the end it was filled with false info on how & why trains are subsidized, leaving out the facts about the trains & government subsidizing the airlines!

Some of my favorite myths are-

It's too expensive.

Only the rich/retired take trains.

Amtrak doesn't come to (insert town name here).

It's just a LAND CRUISE!

Only people who hate flying/are afraid to fly/ are a liberal/are a foamer/ love trains/hate cars/miss 'the old days'/ want to curb greenhouse gases take Amtrak.

Or- only the poor people take Amtrak (this also applies to any public transportation here).


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## AlanB (Dec 3, 2009)

George Harris said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


Many have tried George, but it's very hard. In fact Wendell has actually gone on record as saying "it's not important who funds his operations", and has out and out refused to reveal any records. However, a few people have managed to tie a few links between him and big oil, airlines, and the auto makers.


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## pebbleworm (Dec 3, 2009)

The Reason article is actually pretty close to my experiences on the Coast Starlight, so it's not that much of a myth! The comic does show a mean-spirited lack of understanding, but the author obviously rode the train!


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## DET63 (Dec 3, 2009)

> However, a few people have managed to tie a few links between him and big oil, airlines, and the auto makers.


To be fair, though, is there anyone who isn't someone (important) in this country that isn't tied in one way or twelve to the airlines, oil companies, and automakers?



> The comic does show a mean-spirited lack of understanding, but the author obviously rode the train!


Or is closely connected to someone who did, though I believe the OTP of the Starlight has gotten much, much better in the past few years.


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## pebbleworm (Dec 3, 2009)

It has, but it's still a long slow grind of a trip. Driving from Klamath Falls to Redding takes 3 hours vs. 6 on the train, and I have woken up in Chico at 6:30 (although in 2002). Recently I've taken the Coast Starlight between Oakland and LA, and even with a sleeper and the Pacific Parlor Car as benefits it is too slow and too late be decent transportation between those cities. I'm now a confirmed San Joaquin fan, even with a (painless) 2 hour bus leg to LA or 3 hours to Santa Barbara. To me the ocean view is just not worth the extra time, and why bother with the 30 mph route between Klamath Falls and Redding in the dark? Admittedly it is spectacular when the train is 3 or more hours late.


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## jmbgeg (Dec 4, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Actually the biggest myth about Amtrak was the one sold to Congress and President Nixon back when Amtrak was created. That myth of course was that Amtrak would somehow be profitable. And it's a myth that has haunted Amtrak for all of its years.
> How anyone ever expected to take a bunch of money loosing passenger RR's, roll them into one big company, and somehow suddenly and miraculously turn it into a profitable business is beyond me. I could see with the right management and circumstances (like not having to beg each year for money), how Amtrak might be able to one day reach a point where it covers its operating expenses. But it will always need help with capital expenses, especially for as long as it continues to own track.


I am sure that this has been said before, but all should consider the fact that the federal and state governments subsidize operations at some smaller airports so that they can get commuter airlines to fly there and connect smaller towns to the major airline hubs. Without the long distance trains that cross the country through small towns east and west; north and south; they would be impaired, and there is some broader economic development value to that occuring.


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 4, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Actually the biggest myth about Amtrak was the one sold to Congress and President Nixon back when Amtrak was created. That myth of course was that Amtrak would somehow be profitable. And it's a myth that has haunted Amtrak for all of its years.
> How anyone ever expected to take a bunch of money loosing passenger RR's, roll them into one big company, and somehow suddenly and miraculously turn it into a profitable business is beyond me. I could see with the right management and circumstances (like not having to beg each year for money), how Amtrak might be able to one day reach a point where it covers its operating expenses. But it will always need help with capital expenses, especially for as long as it continues to own track.


 Actually those who were involved in creating Amtrak expected it to be gone in 10 years. The first President of Amtrak came from the Airline Industry. The first badly needed locomotives that were built for Amtrak were really better for freight trains than for passenger trains but they were purchased with the thought that they could be sold to the freight railroads after Amtrak no longer existed. But Congress has kept Amtrak alive soemtimes just barely and the result is the Amtrak we have today.


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## had8ley (Dec 4, 2009)

I hope someone from Amtrak upper management reads this~ I ride the Crescent quite frequently. Unfortunately, it is crewed by a NYP diner and the rest of the train is NOL crewed. They make up "laws" as they go along. The biggest myth about this train is opening of the diner out of NOL. I rode two weeks and it didn't open until Picayune. I called the on board service manager and yes, this is the total truth, "I thought we had service from the time the train left NOL." I guess when the cats in the office the RR belongs to whoever wants to run it.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 4, 2009)

had8ley said:


> I hope someone from Amtrak upper management reads this~ I ride the Crescent quite frequently. Unfortunately, it is crewed by a NYP diner and the rest of the train is NOL crewed. They make up "laws" as they go along. The biggest myth about this train is opening of the diner out of NOL. I rode two weeks and it didn't open until Picayune. I called the on board service manager and yes, this is the total truth, "I thought we had service from the time the train left NOL." I guess when the cats in the office the RR belongs to whoever wants to run it.


Sounds like someone needs to get out of the office and ride the train more! On my last trip on the Eagle from CHI-AUS the new route manager was aboard (she told us she preferred to be called a "Supervisor")but only rode as far as STL. She did take notes in the diner, the lounge, visited in the coaches and talked a little with the pax.

You are correct that when the boss is not around most folks probably tend to do it the easy way, which to them is "my way"!Amtrak definitely needs more supervision and training of OBS on the LD routes! Lastly, is it a NY state of mind thing vs. the NOL laid back, let the good times roll crew?


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## zoltan (Dec 4, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Another good one is speeding up the Adirondack's route. The only way that would be possible is either build the track on, over or under Lake Champlain, or tunnel under the Adirondack Mountains for the full length - in order to get straight track! The route follows the shoreline, so there are no other choices!


I actually heard that from the passenger next to me on the Adirondack last time I caught it, that they were planning HSR to Montreal!

They mentioned it to the conductor, and he said "maybe in your lifetime, but I don't think mine".



gswager said:


> "Oh, is there Amtrak? What is that?"


Or, on a slight variant, I was waiting for my flight from Toronto to DC, and mentioned that the delay was worrying me, as I needed to make the last train from DC to Frederick (which is not Amtrak, but the MARC train). They replied "there's no train to Frederick!" And the woman next to us in the departure lounge told me he was definitely right!



Bill Haithcoat said:


> I took him upstairs myself and pointed him to the number 23 bus and told him he had time to get the "real" train.


What a good samaritan you are, sir! I try to do the same when I see or am approached by someone in need of help, yet I have seen quite a few railfans that could easily answer peoples' questions about the trains, but are unhelpful towards them.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> I was talking to a kid yesterday at a store who saw my Glacier National Park jacket and mentioned that his uncle lived near there. Told him I'd taken the train to Montana, and he said he should look into that. Turns out his uncle lives in Whitefish, and I told him the EB actually stops there. He was really impressed. I guess it's not a myth, but so many folks have no idea that Amtrak serves cities they're supposedly familiar with...


This is very true, I had seen documentaries on train travel, and It looked awesome. I decided to go on a train thinking it would be a 3 or four hour drive to catch one. I live FOUR miles the station. I have lived here for the majority of my life and never knew. I am looking for a new job, anyone know if Amtrak is any good? I think if would be a lot of fun for a year or two, maybe longer.


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## zoltan (Dec 4, 2009)

casey said:


> I am looking for a new job, anyone know if Amtrak is any good? I think if would be a lot of fun for a year or two, maybe longer.


I move that we do not come down too hard on this chap for this remark...


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## DowneasterPassenger (Dec 4, 2009)

I thought of another myth. I've heard conductors announce "By Federal law, smoking is prohibited on ALL Amtrak Trains." But that can't be true because smoking IS allowed on the Auto Train. AFAIK it is not a law but an Amtrak policy.

I've also heard "By FDA law" (or sometimes "California Dept. of Health") "no outside food or beverages are allowed in the dining car." Is that really a law or just Amtrak policy?


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## BlakeTyner (Dec 4, 2009)

SanJoaquinRider said:


> I thought of another myth. I've heard conductors announce "By Federal law, smoking is prohibited on ALL Amtrak Trains." But that can't be true because smoking IS allowed on the Auto Train. AFAIK it is not a law but an Amtrak policy.
> I've also heard "By FDA law" (or sometimes "California Dept. of Health") "no outside food or beverages are allowed in the dining car." Is that really a law or just Amtrak policy?


I've heard the FDA law cited, though I never have checked it out. It seems plausible.

The no smoking policy was apparently a result of Amtrak's Customer Advisory Commission (or whatever they're called.) They at least take credit for the policy in their publications.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 4, 2009)

the FDA thing could be true. in a bowling ally i used to bowl at this lady bought her own bottled water in with her and one of the employees said she couldn't have outside food or drinks as it was against the law by the FDA.


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## sunchaser (Dec 5, 2009)

SanJoaquinRider said:


> I thought of another myth. I've heard conductors announce "By Federal law, smoking is prohibited on ALL Amtrak Trains." But that can't be true because smoking IS allowed on the Auto Train. AFAIK it is not a law but an Amtrak policy.
> I've also heard "By FDA law" (or sometimes "California Dept. of Health") "no outside food or beverages are allowed in the dining car." Is that really a law or just Amtrak policy?


Check out this link.

I think the reason smoking is not allowed on the trains is because it is technically federal property.

I do wish there was a place on the trains to smoke-but I also am aware that is bothers some people too.

It's too bad that there isn't a 'smoking car' of sorts. I know it's unlikely that will ever happen on the other trains.

WhenI first started looking at riding Amtrak I was pleased to see the Auto Train had a smoking area-until I realized they only run back east! Bummer!

Most states have some law on the books about smoking indoors in public places.


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## Heading North (Dec 5, 2009)

The total smoking ban on LD trains is also fairly recent... I remember being on the CZ in 2003 when one of the coaches still had a lower-level smoking room. I was glad, too, because my seatmate kept getting up to use it.


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## AlanB (Dec 5, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> SanJoaquinRider said:
> 
> 
> > I thought of another myth. I've heard conductors announce "By Federal law, smoking is prohibited on ALL Amtrak Trains." But that can't be true because smoking IS allowed on the Auto Train. AFAIK it is not a law but an Amtrak policy.
> ...


Amtrak for a number of years did run all long distance trains with a special "smoker's penalty box" as many called it after just smoking anywhere was stopped. It was an enclosed room in the lower level of certain Superliner coaches, where the baggage is now stored in baggage coaches. On single level trains it was a room built on one side of the cafe car, which franly was a better idea than having it downstairs in a coach. On the Auto Train, the room is downstairs in the cafe cars.

The smoker's rooms went away in part because of complaints from passengers sitting upstairs in the smoking coach, and complaints were made worse by crews that wouldn't let people change seats when they complained about the smoke. However, a much larger reason for their going away was the fact that the smoker's did themselves in. First, too often there would be too many in the room. That meant that the smoke would get rather thick. So some genious would find something to prop the door open with, which of course allowed the smoke to billow throughout the coach or cafe.

Secondly, too many were simply pigs. They'd leave butts all over, they drop their butts in soda or coffee cups, that weren't totally empty and then leave them there in the room. Eventually they'd spill making a wonderful sticky mess.

Amtrak finally got tired of the complaints and the mess, and simply banned smoking all together.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 5, 2009)

Re Smoking: Why is smoking still permitted on the AutoTrain? I would think the same rules/laws would apply to all Amtrak trains? Also in some jurisdictions its against the law to smoke in ANY workplace which an Amtrak car certainly is!

I smoked for 35 years, its a disgusting/junky habit, probably the hardest to quit but millions of people do it that say they want to quit! Im not a fanatic ex-smoker, I believe there should be designated smoking areas for smokers that dont infringe on non-smokers space and right to be smoke free and this does NOT include trains in any car or @ any time where pax and OBS have a right to be smoke free!

I would suggest that Amtrak go ahead and stop smoking on the Autotrain, catering to bad habits is not good business and just because the pax on this train are old and rich :lol: doesnt make it any different! If someone can convince me I'm wrong I'll admit it, but IMHO its only common sense to have the same rules/regs for all trains! :blink:


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## the_traveler (Dec 5, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Re Smoking: Why is smoking still permitted on the AutoTrain? I would think the same rules/laws would apply to all Amtrak trains? Also in some jurisdictions its against the law to smoke in ANY workplace which an Amtrak car certainly is!


On all the other trains, people can get off every few hours at "smoke stops" to smoke. But on the Auto Train, there are no stops between Lorton and Sanford! (The only "stop" is a crew change during the night, but passengers can not get off.)

That is why it is allowed on the Auto Train!


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 5, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Re Smoking: Why is smoking still permitted on the AutoTrain? I would think the same rules/laws would apply to all Amtrak trains? Also in some jurisdictions its against the law to smoke in ANY workplace which an Amtrak car certainly is!
> ...


OK Dave, in that case what about the Sunset Ltd., I rode it this summer and we were not allowed to get off between SAS and El Paso, that was an 10hr. trip (we did stop in Del Rio and Alpine :lol: but no-one was allowed to get off!)! Then we spent an hour and a half in El Paso and didnt stop again until we got to Tuscon, another 6 hrs. and an hour stop. Then we werent allowed off the train until LAX the next morning, another 8 hr. run!Also the Texas Eagle has no smoke stops between STL and LRK,another overnight run, sometimes no stop again until DAL, it seems the same to me?

Its a workplace, its illegal in most places (tried to smoke around an airport or on a plane or bus lately?)and I still say it makes no sense, people fly across the Pacific and other long haul routes without smoking, surely an overnight ride when you're mostly asleep can be smoke free????


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## had8ley (Dec 5, 2009)

AlanB said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > SanJoaquinRider said:
> ...


Great synopsis Alan but only want to add that the brown baggers used the smoking rooms for their private bars further adding to the consternation.


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## AlanB (Dec 5, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> OK Dave, in that case what about the Sunset Ltd., I rode it this summer and we were not allowed to get off between SAS and El Paso, that was an 10hr. trip (we did stop in Del Rio and Alpine :lol: but no-one was allowed to get off!)! Then we spent an hour and a half in El Paso and didnt stop again until we got to Tuscon, another 6 hrs. and an hour stop. Then we werent allowed off the train until LAX the next morning, another 8 hr. run!Also the Texas Eagle has no smoke stops between STL and LRK,another overnight run, sometimes no stop again until DAL, it seems the same to me?


Jim,

I can't explain why there was no smoking between SAS and El Paso on your run, except to say that perhaps the train was running late and the conductor decided to cancel the smoking stop in an effort to make up time. The conductor does have that discretion.

However, the bottom line does remain that all other trains do have stops where one can normally get off to smoke. The Auto Train does not. Additionally the Auto Train's run isn't just overnight, like your example of the Eagle. Passengers typically board the AT around 2:30, latest 3:00 PM, unless there have been major delays putting the trains behind. Assuming that the train doesn't arrive earlier than scheduled the next morning, that's 19 hours with no chance of smoking. Yes depending on your sleep habits perhaps 7 to 8 of those hours are spent asleep, but that still leaves more than 11 hours of being awake.


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## DowneasterPassenger (Dec 5, 2009)

Very interesting!

Another explanation I heard for the smoking ban was that the train passes through many communities that have instituted various forms of smoking bans. Maintaining the smoking section would mean the crew would have to keep track the rules and regulations in different places along the way.

But maybe that's another "myth".


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## DET63 (Dec 5, 2009)

The _Auto-Train_ runs through (though it doesn't stop in) North and South Carolina (aka "Tobacco Road"), where there may not be so many anti-smoking regulations, at either the state or local level.

But then again, that may be another myth.


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## DivMiler (Dec 5, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> the FDA thing could be true. in a bowling ally i used to bowl at this lady bought her own bottled water in with her and one of the employees said she couldn't have outside food or drinks as it was against the law by the FDA.


Of course, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) doesn't make laws; Congress does that.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 6, 2009)

DivMiler said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > the FDA thing could be true. in a bowling ally i used to bowl at this lady bought her own bottled water in with her and one of the employees said she couldn't have outside food or drinks as it was against the law by the FDA.
> ...


Congress tasks various agencies to come up with regulations, which the FDA does.


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Dec 6, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> DivMiler said:
> 
> 
> > amtrakwolverine said:
> ...


GML: Must you be driven to have the last word?

Congress makes the laws. Period, end of story. Yes, various agencies are given rule making power within discrete areas. But that is only within whatever length of leash congress gives them, and with the ability of congress to change anything in there is choses to. Regardless of the agency, all these things are of no effect until they are part of the Code of Federal Regulations.

For example, when we talk about the limitations on train speed due to track conditions, the regulations were developed by the Federal Railroad Administration, but they are of no effect until placed in the CFR. That is why when we talk about these things we may refer to it as a FRA rule, but the reference is not FRA whatever, but CFR, in the case of track, 49 CFR 213.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 6, 2009)

Guest_George Harris_* said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > DivMiler said:
> ...


Who do you think I am? Micah? Congress is often just a rubber stamp, but its a moot point. Congress does make rules, but so do others. If I write a bill up and for some reason unknown to everyone involved, it gets voted to pass in the senate and HoR, followed by a presidential signature, Congress has just passed a law. But Congress didn't make that law- I did. They just passed it.


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## oldtimer (Dec 7, 2009)

Amtrak was never released from the FDA Consent Decree issued in the early 1990's that threatened to shut down food service and held top management accountable for many food service issues. It does prohibit food that Amtrak cannot prove was prepared and stored properly. Sorry no personal food in an Amtrak food service car!


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## dan72 (Dec 7, 2009)

One myth that I've read in recent years has been the statement of Amtrak naysayer politicians who claim something to the effect that the freight railroads really want to take over passenger service - especially on the NEC. :wacko:

Umm, and why was Amtrak created again?? :huh:

Dan


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## DET63 (Dec 7, 2009)

George Harris said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


Wendell Cox at Wikipedia:



> Cox has also emerged as an opponent of smart growth, especially urban growth boundaries, impact fees, and large lot zoning, claiming they have a tendency to raise housing prices artificially and suppress economic growth. Wendell Cox, as paid consultant, has authored studies for the American Highway Users Alliance, a group that lobbies for more highways. He has been employed by various conservative and road building groups over the years.[3]He has also criticized land use policies in the Portland, Oregon area, noting that the area expanded its urban growth boundary to its intended 2040 area 38 years early due to political pressure.
> 
> Demographia publishes the 'Demographia International Housing Affordability Ratings' and Rankings early each year.[4]The survey has been criticised. [5]
> 
> Demographia is also publisher of the world's most comprehensive listing of urban area (agglomeration) population and densities. An edition published in December 2005 includes all agglomerations with 500,000 or more population.


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## Phila 30th St (Dec 9, 2009)

I read this one on Flyertalk yesterday. "Except for on the Acela, it's impossible to earn more than 100 AGR points on a trip."


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 9, 2009)

Phila 30th St said:


> I read this one on Flyertalk yesterday. "Except for on the Acela, it's impossible to earn more than 100 AGR points on a trip."


so i must be seeing things where i earned 185 on the LSL.


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## Phila 30th St (Dec 9, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> so i must be seeing things where i earned 185 on the LSL.


Don't worry, I promptly refuted it.


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 15, 2009)

how about the maple leaf is in danger cause the bridge commission is going to abandon the rail deck of the whirlpool rapids bridge if amtrak does not pay for repairs. i have seen nothing on the bridge commission website to back this up. As of November repairs are underway on the bridge.


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