# Turboliners For Sale



## had8ley (May 20, 2008)

In May's issue of Railway age is the following ad;

ROHR TURBOLINERS FOR SALE

Amtrak has available seven (7) trainsets of Rohr Turboliners (Direct Drive Gas Turbines) and associated spare parts inventory. Each trainset consists of a combination power and coach at each end and three intermediate coaches, one of which is a food service facility. Three (3) trainsets have been overhauled and are stored in Delaware; four (4) trainsets are in various stges of overhaul and are stored in New York. (Goes on to give a contact number and name.)

Looks like the red tape wore off of the Turboliners. I wonder how long they will stay right where they are at before they are sold. I don't think there will be a gold miners rush to acquire any of the above.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 20, 2008)

had8ley said:


> In May's issue of Railway age is the following ad;
> ROHR TURBOLINERS FOR SALE
> 
> Amtrak has available seven (7) trainsets of Rohr Turboliners (Direct Drive Gas Turbines) and associated spare parts inventory. Each trainset consists of a combination power and coach at each end and three intermediate coaches, one of which is a food service facility. Three (3) trainsets have been overhauled and are stored in Delaware; four (4) trainsets are in various stges of overhaul and are stored in New York. (Goes on to give a contact number and name.)
> ...



old news one way to scrapper

Covered here in this thread:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?showtopic=22587


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## had8ley (May 20, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> had8ley said:
> 
> 
> > In May's issue of Railway age is the following ad;
> ...


Just how long have they been for sale? The last I heard there was a big legal flap over who even owned the sets.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 20, 2008)

had8ley said:


> Just how long have they been for sale? The last I heard there was a big legal flap over who even owned the sets.


State of NY and Amtrak settled the Turbo issue in December.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/...ride-to-albany/


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## Steve4031 (May 20, 2008)

So these are useless . . . or could a state like Illinois buy them at a discount.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 20, 2008)

I could think of a few uses for them, but anyone who bought them for regular passenger use is a fool.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 20, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I could think of a few uses for them, but anyone who bought them for regular passenger use is a fool.


Amtrak does not want them in New York or in any state reasons :

To much Fuel

Not ennough passengers (274)

Extra crew(technician)

HVAC not sufficient

No manuals or shop drawings.

Less than reliable


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## PRR 60 (May 20, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > I could think of a few uses for them, but anyone who bought them for regular passenger use is a fool.
> ...


Not only too much fuel, but the wrong fuel. Basically, jet fuel. What rail yard has a tank of that stuff?


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## Dutchrailnut (May 20, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
> ...


nope the rohr's run on regular diesel fuel or no 2 heating oil.

Only early ANF turbo's imported from France uesed JP whatever, but were later changed to regular diesel as well.


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## Steve4031 (May 20, 2008)

Looks like they still have more than 3 strikes against them even if the jet fuel thing is not an issue. Oh well. I always like riding on them . . .


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## VT Hokie (May 20, 2008)

I'll buy one if they'll sell it for 10 grand!


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## VT Hokie (May 20, 2008)

http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/jun03/061203.htm

“'I am pleased that a New York State company is handling the Turboliner project, and we owe it to train riders and taxpayers to ensure that the job is done well and without further cost overruns,' Hevesi said."

And now they get away with scrapping the trains and giving the taxpayers nothing! This fiasco has shown me that Amtrak as it exists is indeed broken. There needs to be more accountability before I'll support any additional taxpayer subsidies for the railroad.


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## AlanB (May 20, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> http://www.osc.state.ny.us/press/releases/jun03/061203.htm
> “'I am pleased that a New York State company is handling the Turboliner project, and we owe it to train riders and taxpayers to ensure that the job is done well and without further cost overruns,' Hevesi said."
> 
> And now they get away with scrapping the trains and giving the taxpayers nothing!


No, your wrong, they gave us something. Increased debt and higher taxes. Not to mention a few fun rides on a refurbished train.  Oh and few constituants got a job for a while, which helped them to pay those increased taxes.


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## PRR 60 (May 20, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Dutchrailnut said:
> ...


Well, there's another piece of mis-information I've been lugging around for about the last five years. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 20, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> And now they get away with scrapping the trains and giving the taxpayers nothing! This fiasco has shown me that Amtrak as it exists is indeed broken. There needs to be more accountability before I'll support any additional taxpayer subsidies for the railroad.


I thought I read somewhere that Amtrak was just following instructions from the New York State politicians who were handing Amtrak the money and wanted the work done in New York State.


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## VT Hokie (May 20, 2008)

Amtrak accepted the Turboliners and started running them, and then David Gunn decided he didn't like the trains and reversed Amtrak's decision to accept the first two trainsets, backing out of Amtrak's previous agreement to operate them and provide track upgrades. Then, Amtrak illegally took possession of the trains and sent them to Delaware.

New York taxpayers funded the rebuilding of the trains, and they were owned by NYSDOT.


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## George Harris (May 20, 2008)

The whole Turboliner rebuild fiasco was an outstanding example of "Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

These things were taken out of service during their first life for all the reasons given. Notice that there are none of these left running in France, either.

The whole fiasco was a prime example of political posturing to look like you are doing something that at best brought a small temporary gain for a few people local to said politician at the expense of the rest of the country.


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## AlanB (May 20, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> Amtrak accepted the Turboliners and started running them, and then David Gunn decided he didn't like the trains and reversed Amtrak's decision to accept the first two trainsets, backing out of Amtrak's previous agreement to operate them and provide track upgrades. Then, Amtrak illegally took possession of the trains and sent them to Delaware.
> New York taxpayers funded the rebuilding of the trains, and they were owned by NYSDOT.


Actually Amtrak never accepted the trainsets, they were running in a testing mode only or conditional acceptance. And only two of the completed sets ever ran a run. The third completed set never turned a wheel in revenue service.

As for Amtrak's involvement, there was a contract between the State and Amtrak. The state was paying for the rebuilding, but Amtrak was supposed to supply some of the components for the trains. Additionally in return for the State paying for the trainsets, Amtrak was obligated to make and pay for certain track improvements.


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## VT Hokie (May 20, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Actually Amtrak never accepted the trainsets, they were running in a testing mode only or conditional acceptance.


I've read that as well, but I was going off of this:

http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/stories/...18/daily63.html

"New York state recently received two letters signed by Amtrak officials accepting the first new Turboliner trainset, one indicating conditional acceptance, another indicating final acceptance. The state then received a message explaining that the final acceptance was in error, with a draft letter describing a new process for accepting the Turboliner," Boardman's letter said.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 20, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Amtrak never accepted the trainsets, they were running in a testing mode only or conditional acceptance.
> ...



Who cares it was settled and the show is over


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2008)

Calm down DRN! As you said it was settled. Now lets figure out a way to buy one and turn it into a museum!


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 21, 2008)

I wonder if the Seashore Trolley Museum wants a Turboliner trainset.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Who cares it was settled and the show is over


No need to shout, and if you have a problem with the discussion, then please contact the moderator rather than trying to be one yourself. For the record, I care, and I am not happy to see this complete and utter waste of taxpayer dollars on a program that in the end has given us nothing. That they teased us with these nice trains by actually putting them into service only to take them away forever just makes it that much more frustrating!


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2008)

What is to complain about? NY gets the freeest corridor service ever.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 21, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> What is to complain about? NY gets the freeest corridor service ever.



Not True, NY state pays all incremental cost of keeping Buffalo to Poughkeepsie at passenger speeds.

Amtrak does not pay trackage rights in New York and gets free dispatching on both Hudson and New Haven lines in New York.

NY paid for P32acdm units required for Empire service.

Renselear shop was built with New York State money.

so where is freee part ??

you want measely 403b payments instead ???


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## Dutchrailnut (May 21, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > Who cares it was settled and the show is over
> ...


It is no longer a discussion its rehashing same **** on three boards, you VTHokie, HST rail, Matt Johnson need help, you keep your frustrations to high.

If you are so inclined buy a set, before they are scrapped,but enough threads got locked because your obsessed.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,1653234

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51399


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

It's not the same discussion repeated. For example, the article I referenced where Boardman stated that Amtrak had formally indicated final acceptance of the trainset before reneging was new to me. Something stinks about this whole thing, and we're not being given the full story. I'd like to know the truth, and somebody needs to be held accountable if they're going to try to get away with just scrapping these expensive trains and giving taxpayers almost nothing back for their investment.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 21, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> It's not the same discussion repeated. For example, the article I referenced where Boardman stated that Amtrak had formally indicated final acceptance of the trainset before reneging was new to me. Something stinks about this whole thing, and we're not being given the full story. I'd like to know the truth, and somebody needs to be held accountable if they're going to try to get away with just scrapping these expensive trains and giving taxpayers almost nothing back for their investment.


What you elude to comprehend is that its an internal New York State matter, If i were a New York Politician and someone from Pa called me to protest an internal New York thing I hang up on him.

The matter was settled between New York and Amtrak, a payment was made and its over, as for A pennysvania railbuff having problems with it though luck, it does not concern you.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

No need for insults.

Amtrak was more obstructionist than New York here, and was really responsible for the trains being removed from service by reneging on its previous agreements. So, I hold Amtrak management largely responsible for the debacle and therefore it does concern more than just New York taxpayers. Amtrak's credibility matters to me when it's receiving federal subsidies and is constantly claiming it needs more.

Amtrak obviously wanted to claim responsibility for the rebuilt trains when it took them to Delaware instead of leaving them in New York.


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## RRrich (May 21, 2008)

Should I look for them on ebay? :lol:


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## Dutchrailnut (May 21, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> No need for insults.
> Amtrak was more obstructionist than New York here, and was really responsible for the trains being removed from service by reneging on its previous agreements. So, I hold Amtrak management largely responsible for the debacle and therefore it does concern more than just New York taxpayers. Amtrak's credibility matters to me when it's receiving federal subsidies and is constantly claiming it needs more.
> 
> Amtrak obviously wanted to claim responsibility for the rebuilt trains when it took them to Delaware instead of leaving them in New York.


Amtrak owns the trains so they had full right to move them.

New York is one who reneged on the track upgrades, and other contract items they screwed up.

Supersteel is one who really F**ed up, and NYDOT did squat to fix it.

RRich you can bid on them via Amtrak I figure the scrap price to be over $ 100 000 per set


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## George Harris (May 21, 2008)

VT Hokie:

Let's put it this way: If I have rented out my house and the tenant want to paint it and remodel the kitchen to suit himself, that still does not make it his house, nor does it give him any equity in it, even if I say it is OK with me for him to do the work. Same principle applies. If New York State wanted to remodel trainsets it did not own, that did not make them the owners. All they really had was permission of the owner to do the remodeling that they wanted.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

Wonder if they still look this nice, or if they're all rusted and faded now.

http://forums.railfan.net/Images/Amtrak/Am...-05b_Medium.jpg

The fact that Amtrak blatantly lied and said it was taking the trains to Delaware for safe keeping really bugs me. Obviously Amtrak had no intention of ensuring that the equipment was protected or taken care of, as it has been rotting outdoors in the Bear, DE yard for all these years with no effort to stop degradation out in the elements.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

George Harris said:


> VT Hokie:
> Let's put it this way: If I have rented out my house and the tenant want to paint it and remodel the kitchen to suit himself, that still does not make it his house, nor does it give him any equity in it, even if I say it is OK with me for him to do the work. Same principle applies. If New York State wanted to remodel trainsets it did not own, that did not make them the owners. All they really had was permission of the owner to do the remodeling that they wanted.


According to this, "Amtrak will permit the release of FRA's lien and the transfer of title of such equipment to DOT."

http://www.arema.org/eseries/scriptcontent...dings/00027.pdf

Clearly it was Amtrak that decided to back out of the agreement and refuse to even operate the already rebuilt trains, not New York.


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## Guest (May 21, 2008)

All I see when looking at these old trains is......daily sunset...


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## Ryan (May 21, 2008)

Guest said:


> All I see when looking at these old trains is......daily sunset...


Those costs would be mind boggling, to say the least. If there isn't any money for regular service, then there certainly isn't for turbo service.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> RRich you can bid on them via Amtrak I figure the scrap price to be over $ 100 000 per set


That's peanuts...less than a million dollars back in total for the $75 million spent on them if all 7 trainsets go for $100k apiece. Very sad indeed. The money, which I think is supposed to go toward Empire Corridor service improvements, won't buy much.

Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy one at $100k!


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## PRR 60 (May 21, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> VT Hokie said:
> 
> 
> > No need for insults.
> ...


Sounds like you don't like the Turbos?

I think Amtrak reneged on the track upgrades, but did so because they claimed NYS did not fulfill the train end of the bargain.

The original deal was cut under Warrington (?) to have NYS rehab the Turbos and Amtrak upgrade the tracks. NYS may have had a cut of the track end, but Amtrak had the bulk. Then Gunn found Amtrak did not have the funds to do the track work (Surprise!). So Gunn told NY that the deal was dead because the Turbos were POS and the whole deal stunk. The lawyers woofed at each other for a couple of years and then settled for a relatively minor payment from Amtrak to NYS and NY taking possession of several slightly used trainsets, one owner.

It all doesn't really matter now. It is settled and done.


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## MrEd (May 21, 2008)

does anyone have directions to the rail yard in scotia ?

I would like to see these trains before they are sold.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2008)

Why does this upset you so much, VT?


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 21, 2008)

Guest said:


> All I see when looking at these old trains is......daily sunset...


Other than the food service capabilities of the Turboliners, do they have any advantage over the P42 + Amfleet I cars that Amtrak has some spares of?


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2008)

What food service capabilities? I thought they simply had standard Cafe cars...


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 21, 2008)

The wikipedia article quotes Amtrak's classified ad selling the trainsets as saying:



> Each trainset consists of a combination power and coach at each end and three intermediate coaches, one with a food service facility.


And the mothballed Amfleet I coaches apparently don't include any cafe cars.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 21, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> The wikipedia article quotes Amtrak's classified ad selling the trainsets as saying:
> 
> 
> > Each trainset consists of a combination power and coach at each end and three intermediate coaches, one with a food service facility.
> ...


Now Wikipedia is as credible as .... no educated input is needed to edit its contents.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

MrEd said:


> does anyone have directions to the rail yard in scotia ?
> I would like to see these trains before they are sold.


The ones worth seeing are the rebuilt sets in Bear, Delaware. If you go to http://maps.live.com/ and type in 258 E Scotland Dr Bear, DE you can see a decent aerial view of them. Unfortunately, I don't think they're visible from publicly accessible land.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> What food service capabilities? I thought they simply had standard Cafe cars...


Yes, just standard cafe counters comparable to those in an Amfleet.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why does this upset you so much, VT?


The Rohr turbos were the closest thing to a real "bullet train" this country had until the Acela came along, even if they weren't used to their full capability. (They're reportedly capable of speeds in the 150 mph range.) I just always thought they were cool trains, and I was very happy to see them get a new lease on life when the rebuild program was announced. I rode aboard the RTL III twice before it was withdrawn from service, and it was a nice piece of equipment. So, being my second favorite train on U.S. rails after the Acela, naturally I'm disappointed in having them taken away the way they were. The incompetence, corruption, and shady dealings behind the incredible waste of taxpayer dollars has really opened my eyes to how badly some sort of oversight is needed at Amtrak. In my opinion, they owed it to the taxpayers to get those trains fixed under warranty if the a/c was ineffective, and get maximum use out of the equipment. If New York and Amtrak can't even afford to provide cafe car service anymore on New York - Albany trains, then how can they afford to just throw away this $75 million investment in the rebuilt equipment? The fact that the Turbos being junked are nicer than the Amfleet crap being used now just really highlights how screwed up the situation is!


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 21, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Now Wikipedia is as credible as .... no educated input is needed to edit its contents.


Do you have a link to a more credible source that would provide information along these lines?


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 21, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> The incompetence, corruption, and shady dealings behind the incredible waste of taxpayer dollars has really opened my eyes to how badly some sort of oversight is needed at Amtrak. In my opinion, they owed it to the taxpayers to get those trains fixed under warranty if the a/c was ineffective, and get maximum use out of the equipment. If New York and Amtrak can't even afford to provide cafe car service anymore on New York - Albany trains, then how can they afford to just throw away this $75 million investment in the rebuilt equipment? The fact that the Turbos being junked are nicer than the Amfleet crap being used now just really highlights how screwed up the situation is!


If Amtrak is at fault at all, the mistakes were made under a management at least two presidents ago.

Throwing away properly rebuilt cars would indeed be dumb, but apparently the $75 million investment resulted in junk.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> Throwing away properly rebuilt cars would indeed be dumb, but apparently the $75 million investment resulted in junk.


Well, it sure seemed like the nicest junk I've seen when I rode aboard the RTL III! If that train was junk, then pretty much all of Amtrak's equipment except for the Acela Express is junk and should be scrapped.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 21, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > Now Wikipedia is as credible as .... no educated input is needed to edit its contents.
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Credibility note the edit button at the top anyone can edit even people with no knowledge.

As for turbo's the AC problem is not easy fix , it would involve redoing entire ceiling, airducts , evaporators etc in short a small rebuilt.

It would still not eliviate the other problems I quoted.

The track upgrades were not to be done by Amtrak( they do not do track work on CSX) but by New York state, they again dropped the ball.


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## PRR 60 (May 21, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> ... The track upgrades were not to be done by Amtrak( they do not do track work on CSX) but by New York state, they again dropped the ball.


The double tracking was to be paid by New York State, but the work between NYC and Albany was to be funded by Amtrak.

From the New York Times, 11/27/2002:



> ...Under an agreement with Amtrak, New York State is paying to rebuild seven Turboliner trains for the Empire Corridor to make them faster. Amtrak, in turn, was to make improvements to that route to allow higher speeds, like eliminating road crossings and straightening curves. Taken together, their work was supposed to raise top speeds to 125 from 80 miles per hour, cutting the time from New York City to Albany by about 40 minutes, to under two hours.
> State officials say that while they have invested more than $100 million in the project, Amtrak, which promised to spend a similar amount, has not spent a cent.


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## AlanB (May 21, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > Throwing away properly rebuilt cars would indeed be dumb, but apparently the $75 million investment resulted in junk.
> ...


While I have mixed feelings on the Turbos, I will say that there was a fair amount of press from riders who absolutely hated the rebuilt trains. There were many, many complaints reported over the noise, the size of the seats, and a few other things. Many of the regular commuters that landed on one of the rebuilt trains definately seemed to want their AMF I's back.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > Throwing away properly rebuilt cars would indeed be dumb, but apparently the $75 million investment resulted in junk.
> ...


The Superliners and Amfleets are excellent equipment. The Amfleets were built by Budd, the Superliner Is by Pullman. They are, in terms of quality of construction, durability, and design competence, better equipment than the Acela could ever dream of being. The only thing the Acela has going for it is sheer speed and performance, perhaps a better ride. I read somewhere that within a year or two, the Acela will be in similar levels of wear to the 30 year old Amfleets.

David Gunn would be happy to tell you that the Acelas are junk. I don't think they are junk, but they don't deserve, by any means, to be held up on a pedestal as being not junk if you want to consider the bulk of Amtrak's fleet junk.

The Amfleet Is are 30 years old. If they average 500 miles a day (and I am sure they average a lot more than that!) they average 182,000 miles a year, and have, on average, covered 5,475,000 miles. Further, historically they have not been maintained well. And yet, they still roll! This equipment ain't junk!


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## Dutchrailnut (May 21, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > ... The track upgrades were not to be done by Amtrak( they do not do track work on CSX) but by New York state, they again dropped the ball.
> ...


The double tracking and Amtrak spending was for Renselear to Schenectady.

NY State was to pay for incremental cost of CSX to upgrade Poughkeepsie to Renselear.

here other article:

HEVESI CRITICIZES DOT ON TURBOLINER DELAYS, COST OVERRUNS

Millions in Improvements to Tracks, Signals and Grade Crossings

Still Needed For Faster Trains to Travel at Top Speeds

The state Department of Transportation (DOT) project to modernize passenger trains on Amtrak’s Empire Corridor between New York City and Buffalo is plagued with management and technical problems, at least $21 million over budget and years behind schedule, according to three audits released today by State Comptroller Alan G. Hevesi.

“The Empire Corridor is a vital part of our state’s transportation system, and the link between New York City and Albany is one of the most heavily traveled Amtrak routes in the nation,” Hevesi said. “I am concerned that today, five years and $51.5 million after the Turboliner modernization project was commenced, just two of the seven trains included in the project are in service.

“Furthermore, the millions spent for train modernization will not make travel noticeably faster until $140 million in improvements are made to tracks, signals and grade crossings,” Hevesi added. “Neither DOT nor Amtrak appear to have plans in place or funds identified to complete the necessary work, so it is as if they are creating Formula One race cars to drive on city streets.”

DOT contracted with Super Steel Schenectady, Inc. (SSSI) to rebuild seven five-car diesel turbine trains, known as Turboliners. Auditors examining the causes of delays in the Turboliner project (audit report 2002-S-52) identified significant weaknesses in project management by DOT as well as a lack of experience on the part of both DOT and SSSI. Another factor contributing to the delay was the unexpected discovery of asbestos in engine and passenger compartments being refurbished by SSSI, contrary to information provided by Amtrak, which originally commissioned the trains.

In a separate audit, auditors found weaknesses in the inspection monitoring process used by DOT and SSSI (audit report 2002-S-54). Auditors also found that technical assistance advice from engineering consultants was not effectively incorporated into the Turboliner remanufacturing process.

A third audit identified more than $1 million in payments to SSSI for which DOT could not provide proper documentation, and other shortcomings in DOT’s controls over payments made under the contract with SSSI (audit report 2002-S-15).

“I am pleased that a New York State company is handling the Turboliner project, and we owe it to train riders and taxpayers to ensure that the job is done well and without further cost overruns,” Hevesi said. “The ongoing delays and other problems with this project are especially troubling because, throughout our auditing process, we raised many of these concerns to DOT.”

Comptroller Hevesi noted that Amtrak has not yet ordered some of the transmissions and engines that it agreed to provide for the project. “Since the lead time on the transmissions once they are ordered is approximately one year, this will add significantly to the delays in the project,” Hevesi said.

The Turboliner modernization project is part of the High Speed Rail Program to cut travel times on the Amtrak Empire Corridor. Refurbished Turboliners are capable of reaching speeds of 125 miles per hour, but an estimated $140 million in improvements to tracks, signals and grade crossings is needed to allow the trains to travel at this rate. Currently, most trains serving the Empire Corridor operate between 75 and 95 miles per hour.

“I am asking DOT to work with Amtrak and SSSI to develop a plan to complete the Turboliners without further delays and cost overruns. DOT and Amtrak also need to show us that the state intends to follow through on the High Speed Rail Program, and I will continue to demand accountability until that goal is achieved,” Hevesi said.

The initial contract between DOT and SSSI covered two Turboliners, and was approved in February, 1998. The two trains were to be ready for use early in 1999, but only entered service early this year. The contract was amended in September, 2000, to incorporate change orders on the first two trains and to include five additional Turboliners. The five additional trains were expected to be in service between June and December, 2002, but none are operating at this time. The contract was amended again in November, 2001, to add change orders for all seven trains. A contract amendment submitted by DOT would extend the contract with SSSI through December 31, 2004 and modify payment methods to allow SSSI to be reimbursed for materials upon receipt, rather than when components of the project are completed.

A fourth audit by the Office of the State Comptroller relating to the High Speed Rail program is currently underway.


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

AlanB said:


> While I have mixed feelings on the Turbos, I will say that there was a fair amount of press from riders who absolutely hated the rebuilt trains. There were many, many complaints reported over the noise, the size of the seats, and a few other things. Many of the regular commuters that landed on one of the rebuilt trains definately seemed to want their AMF I's back.


Well, going from memory here (as it was five years ago now that I rode aboard the RTL III!) here's my impression:

The seats were nice but not roomy. They may have in fact been less comfortable than those in an Amfleet for long distances, though for a 2.5 hour New York to Albany run I think they were okay. They didn't recline in the traditional fashion but instead sort of slid on a track.

The seats in the coaches were fixed, with half facing forward and half facing backward, much like NJ Transit's new bilevel cars. Some people don't like facing backward, though it never made any difference to me.

The huge windows were nice, but I thought the train could use curtains, which were notably absent.

I rode in business class on one trip. The business class seating was in power car #2135 on that particular trainset. It was 2-1 seating, with I believe more legroom than in coach. The seats were nice, but there was indeed a fair amount of noise and vibration from the turbine when the train accelerated. At steady speed, it was much quieter. I remember that when the train accelerated, it made sort of a chugging sound. I expected more of a high pitched whine from the turbines, but I guess the chugging was from moving so much air into the intake. The intermediate coaches were nice and quiet.

This is actually me in business class, still in Penn Station which is why it was dark: http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rtlinteriorvr7.jpg

Also, on another trip, my brother in coach: http://img273.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pa200051qq2.jpg

The ride was smoother than that of Amfleet equipment.

The vestibules in the rebuilt sets were nicely done, with the bathrooms being located in the expanded vestibule section beyond the automatic sliding doors. It was almost Acela-like in the vestibule design.

There were tables in the coaches - I believe one in the center of each standard coach. See http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rtl3table450ny6.jpg

The cafe car had regular coach seating on either end, with an Amfleet style cafe counter in the middle.

The doors of the cars were hinged and manual like on some of the Horizon coaches, and the crew actually did complain about the manual doors at one of the intermediate station stops. Also, during the RTL III rebuild, the doors were relocated to the very end of the car, where I guess the bathroom used to be. And for some reason the ends of the Turboliner cars taper inward. So, I think that made the platform gap larger. To illustrate what I'm trying to say, compare door locations before and after the rebuild:

http://www.hebners.net/amtrak/amtTurbos/amt154d.jpg

http://www.davehonan.com/turbo/amtk-2135-a...-08-03-02-l.jpg

Overall, the train was nice but not particularly luxurious. Of course being newly refurbished, simply having clean carpeting, upholstery, windows, bathrooms, etc. made a good impression. I'd say in terms of appearance and ambiance it ranked certainly below the Acela Express but above Amfleet. It looked like a train that was nicer than your typical utilitarian cattle herder, and somewhat patterned after the Acela. It was definitely a train I'd prefer to ride over the standard Amfleet equipment personally, although aside from business class, I'll concede that the seats aren't really comfortable enough for a long haul like New York - Montreal. (Of course, neither are the high density Amfleet coach seats on the Adirondack now, but that's another story!)

I will mention that I didn't ride during hot summer months. I rode the RTL III in spring and then fall of 2003, so I never experienced the a/c problems.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 21, 2008)

God, thats what they look like inside? No wonder they got pulled!


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## VT Hokie (May 21, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> God, thats what they look like inside? No wonder they got pulled!


LOL...well, I liked 'em better than Amfleets, anyway! :lol:


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## Walt (May 22, 2008)

had8ley said:


> Amtrak has available seven (7) trainsets of Rohr Turboliners (Direct Drive Gas Turbines) and associated spare parts inventory. Each trainset consists of a combination power and coach at each end and three intermediate coaches, one of which is a food service facility. Three (3) trainsets have been overhauled and are stored in Delaware; four (4) trainsets are in various stges of overhaul and are stored in New York. (Goes on to give a contact number and name.)


I thought that part of the lawsuit settlement last year, Amtrak got ownership of the three trainsets in Delaware, and NYS got ownership of the other four trainsets (located somewhere in NYS).

So, how can Amtrak offer up all seven trainsets for sale, now?


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## jis (May 22, 2008)

Walt said:


> I thought that part of the lawsuit settlement last year, Amtrak got ownership of the three trainsets in Delaware, and NYS got ownership of the other four trainsets (located somewhere in NYS).
> So, how can Amtrak offer up all seven trainsets for sale, now?


One possible explanation is that .... just a mere possibility mind you, that, what you thought was incorrect?


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## had8ley (May 22, 2008)

I've run a lot of locomotives~ from steam to the huge comfort cabs of today but I have never enjoyed a cab ride as much as the Turboliners offered. The view was awesome; the same can be said of the oversized windows in the coaches and B/C section (which I believe was in the power car because of the limited space left over after having room for the cab and engine. I don't care if they used a kazillion gallons of fuel; ate caviar for breakfast and slept on satin sheets. They were by far the most enjoyable piece of equipment I've ever experienced on Amtrak or anywhere. (Yes, I know someone is going to say the F-7 and GP9's were the greatest; to each his own.)


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## Walt (May 22, 2008)

jis said:


> One possible explanation is that .... just a mere possibility mind you, that, what you thought was incorrect?


I got it from here....

"_Under the terms of the agreement announced Wednesday by state Transportation Commissioner Astrid Glynn and Amtrak President Alexander Kummant, Amtrak will keep three reconditioned Turboliners it moved to storage in Delaware._

_ _

_New York will keep four other turbos in various states of rehabilitation._"


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## Dutchrailnut (May 22, 2008)

Walt said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > One possible explanation is that .... just a mere possibility mind you, that, what you thought was incorrect?
> ...



Walt you are correct but NYS has asked Amtrak to dispose of the stuff in Scotia as well.


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## jis (May 22, 2008)

Walt said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > One possible explanation is that .... just a mere possibility mind you, that, what you thought was incorrect?
> ...


My my! No need to shout really. I just mentioned it as a possibility and now we know that that possibility is inconsistent with facts. Thank you providing supporting evidence for your correct thought.


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## jackal (May 24, 2008)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > Dutchrailnut said:
> ...


I think Joel's point, and one I agree with, is that information found in Wikipedia, while sometimes of dubious accuracy, is often information you can't easily find in a more credible place.

For example, I'm fairly certain that the very extensive Encyclopaedia Brittanica would not have an article on the Turboliner.

Obviously, Wikipedia works best when people source their contributions, but if 10,000 people view the Turboliner article and 50 of them are knowledgeable about the subject, I'm fairly confident that at least one out of those 50 people is going to know the correct answer and correct any misinformation someone else posted. Misinformation on Wikipedia is, at worst, short-lived--all errors are shallow to many eyes.


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## VT Hokie (May 24, 2008)

This photo shows how the cars are tapered at the end. It doesn't seem like it made the platform gap too much worse...

http://www.jefflubchanskycpa.com/AMT2135PN...AP22-3DG797.jpg

Also, this is the only video I've seen of an RTL III. Kind of gives an idea of what they sounded like:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9040548080394331599


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## Green Maned Lion (May 25, 2008)

Most wikipedia errors are of the kind I often find in the most respected of newspapers, the "New York Times". That is, the kind of misinformation that comes from toning things down so that normal people can understand them. Saying, for instance, that Amtrak is selling them is accurate, without bothering to go into the huge political morass that explains the detail of the thing.


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## Walt (May 25, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Most wikipedia errors are of the kind I often find in the most respected of newspapers, the "New York Times". That is, the kind of misinformation that comes from toning things down so that normal people can understand them. Saying, for instance, that Amtrak is selling them is accurate, without bothering to go into the huge political morass that explains the detail of the thing.


If I look up my high school in Wikipedia, it has a section listing the few now famous people who graduated from there. One of which is listed for the year I graduated. Funny, I don't remember him. Plus, he isn't in my year book (senior or any other class), and isn't listed on my graduation ceremony program.

In other words, a lot of rumors, urban legion, and wishful thinking gets posted on Wikipedia, and unfortunately lasts until someone finally comes along and bothers to spend the time to correct it. But so long as it is "written" on Wikipedia, it is taken as absolute truth.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (May 25, 2008)

MrEd said:


> does anyone have directions to the rail yard in scotia ?
> I would like to see these trains before they are sold.



Mr Ed the turbo's in Scotia are around the Super Steel Building at the old armory/defense complex on Rt 5 in Scotia, NY. You can see them North of the road as you drive thur town, on Rt5. Not much to see, last time I was there you could see an few bodies under plastic, and an few more untouch (old Amtrak paint jobs) bodies. If your in the area go for it, but if your making an special trip, its not worth it. My Thinking. But then I wish I rode an few more time in the pre-viewliner sleepers. :huh:

Anyways be safe

Just-Thinking-51


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 25, 2008)

Walt said:


> If I look up my high school in Wikipedia, it has a section listing the few now famous people who graduated from there. One of which is listed for the year I graduated. Funny, I don't remember him. Plus, he isn't in my year book (senior or any other class), and isn't listed on my graduation ceremony program.
> In other words, a lot of rumors, urban legion, and wishful thinking gets posted on Wikipedia, and unfortunately lasts until someone finally comes along and bothers to spend the time to correct it. But so long as it is "written" on Wikipedia, it is taken as absolute truth.


Did you remove this supposedly famous person from that page, then?


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## Joel N. Weber II (May 25, 2008)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> But then I wish I rode an few more time in the pre-viewliner sleepers


If you have the budget for a private charter, Birch Grove is a heritage sleeper that's still around. (Which makes me wonder if the standards for private cars are less rigorous than for regular Amtrak cars, because I thought modernizing the heritage sleepers acceptably was supposedly impossible.)


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## George Harris (May 26, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> I thought modernizing the heritage sleepers acceptably was supposedly impossible.)


Many things are falsely labeled "impossible" by those that do not want to do them.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 26, 2008)

It wasn't deemed impossible. They didn't want to spend the expense on cars that old, and probably didn't have the money.


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## Mike S. (May 26, 2008)

VT Hokie said:


> This photo shows how the cars are tapered at the end. It doesn't seem like it made the platform gap too much worse...
> http://www.jefflubchanskycpa.com/AMT2135PN...AP22-3DG797.jpg
> 
> Also, this is the only video I've seen of an RTL III. Kind of gives an idea of what they sounded like:
> ...


A quick search from google video results in a decent amount of videos. There is even one from downtown buffalo, about 3 mins long, the longest clip I've seen of them.


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