# highest top speed of the old nyc to chicago trains?



## s10mk

I was wondering, back in the pre-amtrak "old days", out of the three major routes between new york city and chicago, NYC-PRR-B&O; which train ran the highest top speeds? I think the NYC's 20th century limited ran the route in the shortest amount of time. But which train, along their perspective routes reached the highest speed? Was it the 20th century limited, capital limited, or Broadway limited?


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## Steve4031

I read somewhere that the Century Rab at speeds over 100 mph on the straight away west of Toledo.


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## Bob Dylan

PRR's Broadway and the NYC's 20th Century used to literally have races to see which one could get to Chicago first.

Most times the Century would win!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Did the B&O Capitol Limited even serve New York? Sounds more like Washington-Chicago, perhaps via Baltimore?


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## ehbowen

s10mk said:


> I was wondering, back in the pre-amtrak "old days", out of the three major routes between new york city and chicago, NYC-PRR-B&O; which train ran the highest top speeds? I think the NYC's 20th century limited ran the route in the shortest amount of time. But which train, along their perspective routes reached the highest speed? Was it the 20th century limited, capital limited, or Broadway limited?


Actually, of the schedules I've checked, the best time for the _20th Century Limited_ was 15 hours and 45 minutes between Chicago and New York, both ways (July 1956). The _Broadway Limited_ matched that time westbound, but actually managed to beat it by 15 minutes eastbound. However, the _Century_ on the "Water Level Route" had a run more than 50 miles longer than the _Broadway_ via Horseshoe Curve and Pennsy's mountainous crossing of the Alleghenies, so the New York Central had the slightly higher average speed. Actual "top" speed, though, I couldn't tell you; it could be that on Pennsy's four-track electrified main to Harrisburg the speeds were comparable to NYC's water level racetrack, at least until the train had to slow down to attack the mountains.


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## ehbowen

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Did the B&O Capitol Limited even serve New York? Sounds more like Washington-Chicago, perhaps via Baltimore?


The _Capitol Limited_ did indeed serve New York City (actually Jersey City, but it was connected to Manhattan and Brooklyn via ferry and a fleet of motor buses), at least until the Baltimore & Ohio abandoned through passenger service north of Baltimore in the mid-1950s.


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## Seaboard92

The B&O actually ran quite a few trains to New York really Jersey City using the Central Railway of New Jersey which they controlled and trackage rights on Reading. This was known as the Royal Blue Route.

And it should be noted a lot of innovations were tested on this route because of the fierce PRR-B&O competition. Namely air conditioning, and several types of steam locomotives.

Fastest speed to Chicago from New York I would say the B&O wouldn't enter well in that competition. Neither would the Erie because of that roundabout route.

New York Central and PRR would be the two biggest contenders.

At one time on a side note you could go to Chicago from New York on six different routings on five railroads. And the competition was fierce.

As previously mentioned the Broadway Limited and the 20th Century literally raced out of Chicago from Englewood towards the east for several miles. It's not the only known train race either.


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## Anderson

Actually, the B&O _did_ have service into Penn Station for a time. It was in the aftermath of the experiment with nationalizing the railroads during WWI: As that was "unwound", several railroads retained some access allocations for a few years...but the Pennsy threw them out as soon as they could.


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## chakk

The B&O's premier passenger trains had speedometers in their dome cars and their end-of-train observation cars. Top speed I witnessed on the Columbian was 90 mph.


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## s10mk

chakk said:


> The B&O's premier passenger trains had speedometers in their dome cars and their end-of-train observation cars. Top speed I witnessed on the Columbian was 90 mph.


What sections of track was this on? I would imagine that it was somewhere west of Pittsburgh.


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## railiner

I don't know what the maximum authorized speeds were in that era, probably 100 mph in cab signal, or ATS territory.

As mentioned The Broadway Limited had the shortest carded trip for a period...15 hours and 30 minutes, eastward.

The fastest ever American speed achieved by a steam locomotive, was back in the very early 1900's by a PRR engine on its PFW&C racetrack...127 mph!

The all-time speed record for American rails, was on NYC's racetrack, also in western Ohio by a specially streamlined Budd Rail Diesel Car, boosted by a pair of turbojet engines, mounted on its rooftop...183 mph!


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## Seaboard92

The two trains the Broadway Limited and the 20th Century catered to exactly the same market. But the 20th Century managed to get more celebrities then its rival. And the Broadway achieved more Titans of industry it seems. But both did compete fiercely for those two markets. The Broadway also was all Pullman after the 20th Century was downgraded with coaches.


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## Seaboard92

It should also be noted the 20th Century achieved its high speeds by skipping all intermediate stops between Englewood, IL and Harmon,NY. While it did stop for servicing at Harmon, Albany, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, South Bend.

The Broadway limited had more stops receiving passengers and stopped more frequently.


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## railiner

And the Century bypassed Cleveland Union Terminal...it made its service stop at a yard along the lakefront, following Amtrak's current route...


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## Paul CHI

I read a recent article that said that plane travel is also slower now than it was at the beginning of the jet age. Back in the day, prices were pretty much set by government, so airlines competed on time. Now that everybody just wants the lowest fare, planes are using lower cruise speeds to save fuel.


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## ehbowen

Paul CHI said:


> I read a recent article that said that plane travel is also slower now than it was at the beginning of the jet age. Back in the day, prices were pretty much set by government, so airlines competed on time. Now that everybody just wants the lowest fare, planes are using lower cruise speeds to save fuel.


I just checked current flight times from DFW to LAX. If you pick a nonstop, it takes 3 hours and 30 minutes. You could make the same flight (well, from Love Field; DFW wasn't built yet) in a piston - powered DC-7 in 4:45 back in April of 1959. Of course, today's one-way coach fare is only about $127; back in the day it was $60.30 plus tax or over $530 in today's dollars taking inflation into account. However, for that $530 you did get a decent meal....


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## railiner

Today's airliner's do travel considerably slower than when the 707, DC-8, and CV-880 took to the skies...

IIRC, 600-625 mph, airspeed, compared to today's 515-550 mph...


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## Ryan

railiner said:


> I don't know what the maximum authorized speeds were in that era, probably 100 mph in cab signal, or ATS territory.


Also, speed limits were a little more... flexible back in the day.


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## s10mk

Ryan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what the maximum authorized speeds were in that era, probably 100 mph in cab signal, or ATS territory.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, speed limits were a little more... flexible back in the day.
Click to expand...

Especially since, for example, the PRR Broadway limited operated on PRR tracks. It's not like the PRR was going to give one of their trains a speeding ticket


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## railiner

Agreed. Back then, the ICC had oversight for railroad safety, as well as economic regulation, and it was less stringent then today's regulators.

Back then, engineer's who could "get a train over the road", making up time on late trains, were looked upon with favor...

Back then,there was no "random" substance screenings.

There were locomotive speed recorder's, but as said, rule's were indeed more...flexible.


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## s10mk

railiner said:


> Agreed. Back then, the ICC had oversight for railroad safety, as well as economic regulation, and it was less stringent then today's regulators.
> 
> Back then, engineer's who could "get a train over the road", making up time on late trains, were looked upon with favor...
> 
> Back then,there was no "random" substance screenings.
> 
> There were locomotive speed recorder's, but as said, rule's were indeed more...flexible.


Sort of reminds me of the PRRs Lindberg train race from Washington DC to NYC


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## Carolyn Jane

ehbowen said:


> Paul CHI said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read a recent article that said that plane travel is also slower now than it was at the beginning of the jet age. Back in the day, prices were pretty much set by government, so airlines competed on time. Now that everybody just wants the lowest fare, planes are using lower cruise speeds to save fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> I just checked current flight times from DFW to LAX. If you pick a nonstop, it takes 3 hours and 30 minutes. You could make the same flight (well, from Love Field; DFW wasn't built yet) in a piston - powered DC-7 in 4:45 back in April of 1959. Of course, today's one-way coach fare is only about $127; back in the day it was $60.30 plus tax or over $530 in today's dollars taking inflation into account. However, for that $530 you did get a decent meal....
Click to expand...

And more legroom...CJ


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## Bob Dylan

The biggest advantage the 20th Century had over the Broadway Ltd., in addition to the Water Level Route, ( see North by Northwest with Cary Grant and Eva Marie Saint) and the Beautiful NY Central Cars, was walking down the Classy Red Carpet at Grand Central Terminal.( although Penn Station in NYC was a jewel of a Station also back in the day)

I never got to ride the Broadway, either Pre or Post A Day, but rode plenty of trains into and out of GTC and NYP both Pre and Post A Day.


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## dlagrua

I've read that on the old PRR Broadway Ltd route going to Chicago through Crestline, Lima, Ft Wayne, Valpariso, and Gary it hit 90 mph on the straightaway sections. That route was just rebuilt and reopened for freight service but incapable of those speeds today. It makes for an interesting argument for restoration of passenger service but I doubt that we will see it in the near future.


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## ehbowen

dlagrua said:


> I've read that on the old PRR Broadway Ltd route going to Chicago through Crestline, Lima, Ft Wayne, Valpariso, and Gary it hit 90 mph on the straightaway sections. That route was just rebuilt and reopened for freight service but incapable of those speeds today. It makes for an interesting argument for restoration of passenger service but I doubt that we will see it in the near future.


Unless the physical alignment of the right-of-way has changed (which I seriously doubt), there is no reason it couldn't host passenger service at the same speed provided a comparatively little bit of money is spent to bring track conditions up to Class 5 and install a suitable signaling system.


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## railiner

Rivalry between the old NYC and PRR on the premier New York - Chicago route is of legend...

While the best (IMHO) incarnations of The Broadway Limited and the Twentieth Century Limited, were the new for 1938 streamlined editions. The PRR cars and engines were styled by Raymond Loewy, and the Central's by Henry Dreyfuss, both tops in industrial design.

Which route had the advantage? The Central advertised its "Water Level Route --you can sleep" (some wags referred to it as the "sewer level route)  .

The PRR advertised its 53 mile shorter routing over "The finest, smoothest, and heaviest railroad (155 pound per yard rail) in America --you can sleep-restfully".

Both trains received a mid-century upgrade in 1949 with new postwar cars.


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## Anderson

I actually had a discussion with someone on this: The Century had the advantage as long as both trains held an extra fare charge (there are stories of the Broadway going out empty in the late 30s). Once the Broadway dropped its extra fare, it took the lead and never really let it go. Both trains were roughly on par with one another in terms of timetable and amenities, so when the Pennsy was able to use the cover of WW2 to drop the extra fare charge and simply not bring it back they were able to "backdoor" some price competition.


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## Texan Eagle

Seaboard92 said:


> At one time on a side note you could go to Chicago from New York on six different routings on five railroads. And the competition was fierce.


What were the six routings? Which were each of the route's premier trains, and how long did each one of them take to go from NYC --> Chicago?


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## Devil's Advocate

Carolyn Jane said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul CHI said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read a recent article that said that plane travel is also slower now than it was at the beginning of the jet age. Back in the day, prices were pretty much set by government, so airlines competed on time. Now that everybody just wants the lowest fare, planes are using lower cruise speeds to save fuel.
> 
> 
> 
> I just checked current flight times from DFW to LAX. If you pick a nonstop, it takes 3 hours and 30 minutes. You could make the same flight (well, from Love Field; DFW wasn't built yet) in a piston - powered DC-7 in 4:45 back in April of 1959. Of course, today's one-way coach fare is only about $127; back in the day it was $60.30 plus tax or over $530 in today's dollars taking inflation into account. However, for that $530 you did get a decent meal....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And more legroom...CJ
Click to expand...

 Coach legroom is indeed very poor today, but you can still get plenty of legroom in first class for $530 if you buy in advance during the APEX purchasing window. Meals aren't as nice or elaborate as before deregulation but airports have many more services than they did in the piston days and most healthy people can easily go three or four hours without a meal regardless. Modern turbofan aircraft are designed to fly slightly slower than early turbojet aircraft but are still much faster than piston aircraft. They're also much quieter and smoother. Flight durations are measured differently today so you cannot compare them directly by simple schedule time.


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## railiner

Perhaps the ultimate argument for those that say say airline speeds don't matter that much.... the demise of the Concorde, with no successor apparent...


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## ehbowen

Texan Eagle said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> At one time on a side note you could go to Chicago from New York on six different routings on five railroads. And the competition was fierce.
> 
> 
> 
> What were the six routings? Which were each of the route's premier trains, and how long did each one of them take to go from NYC --> Chicago?
Click to expand...

In order of increasing time...and decreasing [approximate] popularity for bumper-to-bumper travelers, but even the Erie and Lackawanna had a steady captive audience among the small towns along their lines:


Pennsylvania Railroad. The 900 lb. gorilla of the market. Fast and frequent service from Chicago and St. Louis to New York, Washington, and just about every city between them along the Northeast Corridor. Premium train NYC-CHI: _Broadway Limited_. 15:45 westbound; 15:30 eastbound.
New York Central - Water Level Route (Via Cleveland). An 850 lb. gorilla to match the Pennsy. Didn't reach south of New York City (although there were branch lines into central and western Pennsylvania) but offered through service from Boston and New York to Chicago & St. Louis. Premium train NYC-CHI: _20th Century Limited_. More popular than the _Broadway_, at least until after WWII. 15:45 both ways.
New York Central - Michigan Central Route (Via Detroit and the Canadian corridor): An alternate route for Chicago-bound travelers. Premium train: The _Wolverine_. 17:40 westbound; 17:35 eastbound.
Baltimore & Ohio - Via Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, and Pittsburgh. This scrappy fighter threw in the towel north of Baltimore in the mid-1950s. Premium train: _Capitol Limited_. 20:45 westbound; 20:40 eastbound.
Lackawanna/Nickel Plate - I think this railroad combination had a lot more potential than history shows. The Lackawanna had a fairly fast and much more direct route from New York (Hoboken, NJ) to Buffalo via Scranton, Binghamton and Elmira. The Nickel Plate ran from Buffalo to Chicago through Erie, Cleveland and Fort Wayne, Indiana. Lackawanna's pride was the famous _Phoebe Snow_ while Nickel Plate hosted the eponymous _Nickel Plate Limited_. However, while these and other trains exchanged through cars they did not connect with each other at Buffalo. The closest thing to a true through train, as best I've been able to find, on this route was the _Westerner/New Yorker_ (westbound/eastbound). 21:05 westbound; 20:25 eastbound.
Erie Railroad - Via a meandering route from Jersey City through Port Jervis, Binghamton, Salamanca, Youngstown, and Lima, Ohio. Never heard of those towns? Neither have I. Premium train: The _Erie Limited_. 23:35 westbound; 24:09 eastbound.


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## jphjaxfl

ehbowen said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> At one time on a side note you could go to Chicago from New York on six different routings on five railroads. And the competition was fierce.
> 
> 
> 
> What were the six routings? Which were each of the route's premier trains, and how long did each one of them take to go from NYC --> Chicago?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In order of increasing time...and decreasing [approximate] popularity for bumper-to-bumper travelers, but even the Erie and Lackawanna had a steady captive audience among the small towns along their lines:
> 
> 
> Pennsylvania Railroad. The 900 lb. gorilla of the market. Fast and frequent service from Chicago and St. Louis to New York, Washington, and just about every city between them along the Northeast Corridor. Premium train NYC-CHI: _Broadway Limited_. 15:45 westbound; 15:30 eastbound.
> New York Central - Water Level Route (Via Cleveland). An 850 lb. gorilla to match the Pennsy. Didn't reach south of New York City (although there were branch lines into central and western Pennsylvania) but offered through service from Boston and New York to Chicago & St. Louis. Premium train NYC-CHI: _20th Century Limited_. More popular than the Broadway, at least until after WWII. 15:45 both ways.
> New York Central - Michigan Central Route (Via Detroit and the Canadian corridor): An alternate route for Chicago-bound travelers. Premium train: The _Wolverine_. 17:40 westbound; 17:35 eastbound.
> Baltimore & Ohio - Via Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, and Pittsburgh. This scrappy fighter threw in the towel north of Baltimore in the mid-1950s. Premium train: _Capitol Limited_. 20:45 westbound; 20:40 eastbound.
> Lackawanna/Nickel Plate - I think this railroad combination had a lot more potential than history shows. The Lackawanna had a fairly fast and much more direct route from New York (Hoboken, NJ) to Buffalo via Scranton, Binghamton and Elmira. The Nickel Plate ran from Buffalo to Chicago through Erie, Cleveland and Fort Wayne, Indiana. Lackawanna's pride was the famous _Phoebe Snow_ while Nickel Plate hosted the eponymous _Nickel Plate Limited_. However, while these and other trains exchanged through cars they did not connect with each other at Buffalo. The closest thing to a true through train, as best I've been able to find, on this route was the _Westerner/New Yorker_ (westbound/eastbound). 21:05 westbound; 20:25 eastbound.
> Erie Railroad - Via a meandering route from Jersey City through Port Jervis, Binghamton, Salamanca, Youngstown, and Lima, Ohio. Never heard of those towns? Neither have I. Premium train: The _Erie Limited_. 23:35 westbound; 24:09 eastbound.
Click to expand...

The Grand Trunk Western and Lehigh Valley also had through trains from Chicago to New York via Canada and Buffalo at one time. The Nickel Plate-Lackawanna also had the City of Chicago and City of Cleveland from Chicago to Hoboken in addition to the Westerner New Yorker. Nickel Plate built streamlined cars for the through trains after WWII, some of which survived through Amtrak.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

ehbowen said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> At one time on a side note you could go to Chicago from New York on six different routings on five railroads. And the competition was fierce.
> 
> 
> 
> What were the six routings? Which were each of the route's premier trains, and how long did each one of them take to go from NYC --> Chicago?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In order of increasing time...and decreasing [approximate] popularity for bumper-to-bumper travelers, but even the Erie and Lackawanna had a steady captive audience among the small towns along their lines:
> 
> 
> Pennsylvania Railroad. The 900 lb. gorilla of the market. Fast and frequent service from Chicago and St. Louis to New York, Washington, and just about every city between them along the Northeast Corridor. Premium train NYC-CHI: _Broadway Limited_. 15:45 westbound; 15:30 eastbound.
> New York Central - Water Level Route (Via Cleveland). An 850 lb. gorilla to match the Pennsy. Didn't reach south of New York City (although there were branch lines into central and western Pennsylvania) but offered through service from Boston and New York to Chicago & St. Louis. Premium train NYC-CHI: _20th Century Limited_. More popular than the Broadway, at least until after WWII. 15:45 both ways.
> New York Central - Michigan Central Route (Via Detroit and the Canadian corridor): An alternate route for Chicago-bound travelers. Premium train: The _Wolverine_. 17:40 westbound; 17:35 eastbound.
> Baltimore & Ohio - Via Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, and Pittsburgh. This scrappy fighter threw in the towel north of Baltimore in the mid-1950s. Premium train: _Capitol Limited_. 20:45 westbound; 20:40 eastbound.
> Lackawanna/Nickel Plate - I think this railroad combination had a lot more potential than history shows. The Lackawanna had a fairly fast and much more direct route from New York (Hoboken, NJ) to Buffalo via Scranton, Binghamton and Elmira. The Nickel Plate ran from Buffalo to Chicago through Erie, Cleveland and Fort Wayne, Indiana. Lackawanna's pride was the famous _Phoebe Snow_ while Nickel Plate hosted the eponymous _Nickel Plate Limited_. However, while these and other trains exchanged through cars they did not connect with each other at Buffalo. The closest thing to a true through train, as best I've been able to find, on this route was the _Westerner/New Yorker_ (westbound/eastbound). 21:05 westbound; 20:25 eastbound.
> Erie Railroad - Via a meandering route from Jersey City through Port Jervis, Binghamton, Salamanca, Youngstown, and Lima, Ohio. Never heard of those towns? Neither have I. Premium train: The _Erie Limited_. 23:35 westbound; 24:09 eastbound.
Click to expand...

And today it is...

1. NYC Water Route

2. B&O (with transfer if you want to get to NYC)

3. C&O

Where's the PRR? Good question...


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## ehbowen

jphjaxfl said:


> The Grand Trunk Western and Lehigh Valley also had through trains from Chicago to New York via Canada and Buffalo at one time. The Nickel Plate-Lackawanna also had the City of Chicago and City of Cleveland from Chicago to Hoboken in addition to the Westerner New Yorker. Nickel Plate built streamlined cars for the through trains after WWII, some of which survived through Amtrak.


The Lehigh Valley, in conjunction with Canadian National, operated a train from New York to Toronto called the _Maple Leaf_. The Canadian National, in conjunction with their subsidiary Grand Trunk Western, operated a completely separate train from Chicago to Montreal (via Toronto) which was also called the _Maple Leaf_. [i say completely separate, but I haven't checked every timetable for every year; it is possible that for a short time the schedules of the two trains were tweaked to connect.]

The _City of Chicago_ (westbound) and the _City of Cleveland_ (eastbound) were just new names for the _Nickel Plate Limited_, effective in 1954. They still served only the Chicago-Buffalo run, although some through cars were exchanged with the Lackawanna at Buffalo. The only true through trains on the route which I have found were the _Westerner/New Yorker_.


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## Seaboard92

And I believe between all of those routes there were some 40-50 options daily. Which is quite impressive.

Today here is what the routes serve as.

DLW abandoned the cutoff in New Jersey to PA.

NKP active mainline.

Erie abandoned from a point in Ohio to Indiana.

NYC active mainline.

NYC-CS-MC abandoned between BUF and DET

B&O active mainline.

PRR half mainline half shortline.


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## railiner

There was also service on the Wabash from Chicago to Buffalo, via trackage rights from Detroit across Ontario.

And for the "E M Frimbo's" out there, there was the "Alphabet Route"...

Jersey Central, Reading, Western Maryland, Pittsburgh and West Virginia, Wheeling and Lake Erie, Ann Arbor, or Pete Marquette....

Speaking of Frimbo, at one time you could get from NYC to Chicago entirely on electric interurban railways...


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## Texan Eagle

ehbowen said:


> In order of increasing time...and decreasing [approximate] popularity for bumper-to-bumper travelers, but even the Erie and Lackawanna had a steady captive audience among the small towns along their lines:
> 
> 
> 
> Pennsylvania Railroad. The 900 lb. gorilla of the market. Fast and frequent service from Chicago and St. Louis to New York, Washington, and just about every city between them along the Northeast Corridor. Premium train NYC-CHI: _Broadway Limited_. 15:45 westbound; 15:30 eastbound.
> New York Central - Water Level Route (Via Cleveland). An 850 lb. gorilla to match the Pennsy. Didn't reach south of New York City (although there were branch lines into central and western Pennsylvania) but offered through service from Boston and New York to Chicago & St. Louis. Premium train NYC-CHI: _20th Century Limited_. More popular than the _Broadway_, at least until after WWII. 15:45 both ways.
> New York Central - Michigan Central Route (Via Detroit and the Canadian corridor): An alternate route for Chicago-bound travelers. Premium train: The _Wolverine_. 17:40 westbound; 17:35 eastbound.
> Baltimore & Ohio - Via Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, and Pittsburgh. This scrappy fighter threw in the towel north of Baltimore in the mid-1950s. Premium train: _Capitol Limited_. 20:45 westbound; 20:40 eastbound.
> Lackawanna/Nickel Plate - I think this railroad combination had a lot more potential than history shows. The Lackawanna had a fairly fast and much more direct route from New York (Hoboken, NJ) to Buffalo via Scranton, Binghamton and Elmira. The Nickel Plate ran from Buffalo to Chicago through Erie, Cleveland and Fort Wayne, Indiana. Lackawanna's pride was the famous _Phoebe Snow_ while Nickel Plate hosted the eponymous _Nickel Plate Limited_. However, while these and other trains exchanged through cars they did not connect with each other at Buffalo. The closest thing to a true through train, as best I've been able to find, on this route was the _Westerner/New Yorker_ (westbound/eastbound). 21:05 westbound; 20:25 eastbound.
> Erie Railroad - Via a meandering route from Jersey City through Port Jervis, Binghamton, Salamanca, Youngstown, and Lima, Ohio. Never heard of those towns? Neither have I. Premium train: The _Erie Limited_. 23:35 westbound; 24:09 eastbound.


Wow! This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. Extremely informative for someone like me who was not alive when all these trains ran in their heyday.

The timetable for 20th Century shows a 12 hour non-stop run from Albany to Chicago. Was it really non-stop or did it have technical stops in the middle of the night for crew change and/or watering the locos etc?


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## ehbowen

Texan Eagle said:


> Wow! This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. Extremely informative for someone like me who was not alive when all these trains ran in their heyday.
> 
> The timetable for 20th Century shows a 12 hour non-stop run from Albany to Chicago. Was it really non-stop or did it have technical stops in the middle of the night for crew change and/or watering the locos etc?


I wasn't alive during their heyday, either. But I've collected a lot of literature from the period, mostly back issues of the _Official Guide of the Railways._

The _20th Century_ did make stops for servicing and crew changes, but there were no passenger stops between Albany and Englewood (at least for most of its history). The New York Central, however, did operate a number of other trains which were targeted at specific markets, such as New York to Cleveland. So the cities and towns in "flyover country" were well served, and at much more convenient hours than you find today.


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## Texan Eagle

ehbowen said:


> I wasn't alive during their heyday, either. But I've collected a lot of literature from the period, mostly back issues of the _Official Guide of the Railways._
> 
> The _20th Century_ did make stops for servicing and crew changes, but there were no passenger stops between Albany and Englewood (at least for most of its history). The New York Central, however, did operate a number of other trains which were targeted at specific markets, such as New York to Cleveland. So the cities and towns in "flyover country" were well served, and at much more convenient hours than you find today.


Since you seem to have put a lot of effort into this, do you mind if I ask some follow-up questions?

Were all those trains run on steam engines when they had their best timings? Or did any of the routes use diesel or electric locomotives?

Where were the service stops for 20th Century between Albany and Chicago?


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## ehbowen

Texan Eagle said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lackawanna/Nickel Plate - I think this railroad combination had a lot more potential than history shows. The Lackawanna had a fairly fast and much more direct route from New York (Hoboken, NJ) to Buffalo via Scranton, Binghamton and Elmira. The Nickel Plate ran from Buffalo to Chicago through Erie, Cleveland and Fort Wayne, Indiana. Lackawanna's pride was the famous _Phoebe Snow_ while Nickel Plate hosted the eponymous _Nickel Plate Limited_. However, while these and other trains exchanged through cars they did not connect with each other at Buffalo. The closest thing to a true through train, as best I've been able to find, on this route was the _Westerner/New Yorker_ (westbound/eastbound). 21:05 westbound; 20:25 eastbound.
> Erie Railroad - Via a meandering route from Jersey City through Port Jervis, Binghamton, Salamanca, Youngstown, and Lima, Ohio. Never heard of those towns? Neither have I. Premium train: The _Erie Limited_. 23:35 westbound; 24:09 eastbound.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. Extremely informative for someone like me who was not alive when all these trains ran in their heyday.
Click to expand...

To be complete, I should mention that the Erie and the Lackawanna merged in 1960. Eventually (early 1964), they took the streamlined equipment from Lackawanna's _Phoebe Snow_ and placed it into service under that name between Hoboken and Chicago via a hybrid route...former Lackawanna Hoboken-Binghamton; Erie routing westward. (The Erie never operated a fully streamlined train under its own auspices.) The hybrid New York-Chicago _Phoebe Snow_ ran on a 23 hour schedule and was at least somewhat competitive with the other railroads' secondary trains. Travelers' reports I have seen say that it was a pleasant way to make the journey.


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## ehbowen

Texan Eagle said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't alive during their heyday, either. But I've collected a lot of literature from the period, mostly back issues of the _Official Guide of the Railways._
> 
> The _20th Century_ did make stops for servicing and crew changes, but there were no passenger stops between Albany and Englewood (at least for most of its history). The New York Central, however, did operate a number of other trains which were targeted at specific markets, such as New York to Cleveland. So the cities and towns in "flyover country" were well served, and at much more convenient hours than you find today.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you seem to have put a lot of effort into this, do you mind if I ask some follow-up questions?
> 
> Were all those trains run on steam engines when they had their best timings? Or did any of the routes use diesel or electric locomotives?
> 
> Where were the service stops for 20th Century between Albany and Chicago?
Click to expand...

The best timings, almost universally, would have been in the Diesel era...but before the ICC's 1947 edict restricting speeds to 79 mph or less on track not equipped with cab signals or Automatic Train Stop took effect in (IIRC) 1955. Diesel locomotives don't need water stops (or track pans....) which steam locomotives need every 50-80 miles, and they can generally go farther on a tank of fuel than steamers can go on a load of coal.

I don't know exactly where the _Century's_ service stops were; perhaps a New York Central fan can chime in.


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## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> And I believe between all of those routes there were some 40-50 options daily. Which is quite impressive.
> 
> Today here is what the routes serve as.
> 
> DLW abandoned the cutoff in New Jersey to PA.
> 
> NKP active mainline.
> 
> Erie abandoned from a point in Ohio to Indiana.
> 
> NYC active mainline.
> 
> NYC-CS-MC abandoned between BUF and DET
> 
> B&O active mainline.
> 
> PRR half mainline half shortline.


DLW did not abandon the cutoff. Conrail did, and worked very hard to make sure that the right of way was destroyed and the fill material sold as aggregate. Intervention by NJDOT at the behest of rail advocates saved the ROW after a protracted legal battle and some forceful use of eminent domain. I know about this sorry saga because NJ-ARP was involved neck deep in getting NJDOT off its hiney.


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## railiner

The PRR first started using electric power with the opening of Pennsylvania Station in 1910 from New York to Manhattan Transfer, NJ ((Hudson Tower). In stages, electrification was extended as far west as Harrisburg. From there to Chicago, steam, and later Diesel power.

The NYC used electric power from Grand Central Terminal, to Croton-Harmon. From there to Chicago steam and later Diesel. Trains operating thru Cleveland Union Terminal (not the Century), also switched to electric power for a short stretch...


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## Seaboard92

ehbowen said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't alive during their heyday, either. But I've collected a lot of literature from the period, mostly back issues of the _Official Guide of the Railways._
> 
> The _20th Century_ did make stops for servicing and crew changes, but there were no passenger stops between Albany and Englewood (at least for most of its history). The New York Central, however, did operate a number of other trains which were targeted at specific markets, such as New York to Cleveland. So the cities and towns in "flyover country" were well served, and at much more convenient hours than you find today.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you seem to have put a lot of effort into this, do you mind if I ask some follow-up questions?
> 
> Were all those trains run on steam engines when they had their best timings? Or did any of the routes use diesel or electric locomotives?
> 
> Where were the service stops for 20th Century between Albany and Chicago?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The best timings, almost universally, would have been in the Diesel era...but before the ICC's 1947 edict restricting speeds to 79 mph or less on track not equipped with cab signals or Automatic Train Stop took effect in (IIRC) 1955. Diesel locomotives don't need water stops (or track pans....) which steam locomotives need every 50-80 miles, and they can generally go farther on a tank of fuel than steamers can go on a load of coal.
> 
> I don't know exactly where the _Century's_ service stops were; perhaps a New York Central fan can chime in.
Click to expand...

I'm the resident Central fan here so I can comment to this. The train stopped for an engine change at Harmon, then Albany, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, Elkhart/South Bend. For the longest time there was no stop between Harmon and Englewood to my knowledge. 
Steam locomotives it really depends on the engine to what its coal and water consumption. Also what you are hauling and at what speed. In twenty car excursion service we have pushed 611 (northern) 295 miles without coaling and taking water. But we also have the use of an auxiliary water tender and are restricted to 45.

I can't speak for the J3A Hudson because none were preserved but likely you could get a good 150 between coal and with water pans probably wouldn't need to worry too much about that either. I know some trains back in the day used to change engine every so many miles. The Hudsons weren't all they were cracked up to be.

They were great engines for power at high speed but getting started they were horrible. They were even fitted with one diesel traction motor to help get them to speed. The Niagara's were far superior engines.


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## Metra Electric Rider

So, sorry to revisit an old thread, but what was the actual highest top speed from NYC to Chicago?


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## ehbowen

Metra Electric Rider said:


> So, sorry to revisit an old thread, but what was the actual highest top speed from NYC to Chicago?


Some engineers probably ran the straightaways at the highest speed the engines were capable of. Steam locomotives are limited by their inherent dynamic imbalance...if you balance the back and forth motion of the siderods the wheels jump off the tracks at high speed; if you balance the rotating masses the engine noses side to side violently enough to damage the track structure and even derail. The best you can do is compromise and accept some of both. Most passenger steam locomotives top out a little over 100 mph...I believe the record was 127.

Diesel locomotives don't have the "hammer blow" and "nosing" problems, but you can design an electric motor with only so much flexibility. It has to be geared, and if you gear for very high speed you lose pulling power at the low end. The highest speed that passenger Diesels were normally geared for in the 1940s and 50s was 117 mph.


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## railiner

Interesting....thanks for that explanation on the siderod steam locomotives. I imagine the DD-1 siderod electrics had similar balance limitations?

How about steam locomotives that had steam turbine's generating electric power for traction motors...there were very few of those, but they should have been able to match or even exceed a diesel-electric?


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## ehbowen

railiner said:


> Interesting....thanks for that explanation on the siderod steam locomotives. I imagine the DD-1 siderod electrics had similar balance limitations?
> 
> How about steam locomotives that had steam turbine's generating electric power for traction motors...there were very few of those, but they should have been able to match or even exceed a diesel-electric?


Match. They have the same limitations as the electric drive of a Diesel. Of the steam turbine locomotives I looked up, only the two pioneering units GE built for UP in 1938 ran over 100 MPH...they were tested to 125. Chessie's M-1 class of the late '40s might have been able to match that speed, but they were never operated to their full potential and the passenger train they were built for (The _Chessie)_ was stillborn. Norfolk & Western's _Jawn Henry_, as best I recall, was geared for freight.


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## VentureForth

I'm going to go off on a minor tangent here -

It is interesting, reading about the 20th Century Limited. It was an all sleeper train for it's 6 PM - 9 AM, 958 mile run. (East to West) until 1935. It looks like when they went Diesel, they added ONE coach. I've brought this up before, and constantly ridiculed for it, but I've argued that the Autotrain should be an all sleeper train for it's 4 PM - 9 AM 855 mile run (16 hours on the 20th vs 17 hours for 100 fewer miles on the AT).

Yeah, I know, no equipment.


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## ehbowen

VentureForth said:


> I'm going to go off on a minor tangent here -
> 
> It is interesting, reading about the 20th Century Limited. It was an all sleeper train for it's 6 PM - 9 AM, 958 mile run. (East to West) until 1935. It looks like when they went Diesel, they added ONE coach. I've brought this up before, and constantly ridiculed for it, but I've argued that the Autotrain should be an all sleeper train for it's 4 PM - 9 AM 855 mile run (16 hours on the 20th vs 17 hours for 100 fewer miles on the AT).
> 
> Yeah, I know, no equipment.


That, and also the fact that there is a substantial contingent of potential customers who would rather spend a night sitting up in coach than pay Amtrak's current going rate for a sleeper accommodation....


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

ehbowen said:


> That, and also the fact that there is a substantial contingent of potential customers who would rather spend a night sitting up in coach than pay Amtrak's current going rate for a sleeper accommodation....


Or just can't afford the sleeper.


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## Texan Eagle

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Or just can't afford the sleeper.


Bring back the sectionals! All I want for overnight Amtrak journeys is the ability to sleep on a flat surface, none of the shenanigans of included meals and coffee and juice and SCA making a bed for me and all that. A good simple sleeper berth like trains in Europe and Asia have will do just fine!


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## Palmetto

Bob Dylan said:


> PRR's Broadway and the NYC's 20th Century used to literally have races to see which one could get to Chicago first.
> 
> Most times the Century would win!


The tracks came together and paralleled each other to Englewood, which was the first stop. The two lines parted company in Whiting, IN I believe.


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