# Airbus Lands Landmark JAL Deal



## The Davy Crockett

From Reuters:



> Airbus clinched its first jet order from Japan Airlines on Monday, cracking a big national market long dominated by the European firm's main rival, Boeing .
> 
> The U.S. planemaker acknowledged it had paid a penalty for the mechanically troubled debut of its 787 Dreamliner.
> 
> The landmark deal for 31 wide-body A350 jets with a combined $9.5 billion list price follows an intense battle between the two manufacturers as JAL and domestic rival ANA Holdings Inc seek dozens of new long-haul jets over the next decade.
> 
> The agreement, which is also likely to unsettle a Japanese aerospace industry that builds large portions of Boeing's jets, includes options for another 25 of the A350s.
> 
> "This is a huge win for Airbus and a big loss for Boeing," said aerospace analyst Scott Hamilton, managing director of Seattle-based Leeham Co.
> 
> "Airbus has been trying to break the wide-body monopoly of Boeing for decades and likewise Boeing has been wanting to keep Airbus out of JAL and ANA."


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## the_traveler

It's kinda ironic that Japan makes large portions of Boeing's jets, and a Japanese airline is not buying those jets!

The globalization of industry is strange indeed. Some cars made by Toyota (a Japanese company) are more American made (both the parts and the manufacturing plants) than some models of Ford (an American company)! Many US companies are moving manufacturing overseas, while companies like Toyota, Honda, Kia and some European companies build cars in the US.


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## MrFSS

the_traveler said:


> It's kinda ironic that Japan makes large portions of Boeing's jets, and a Japanese airline is not buying those jets!
> 
> The globalization of industry is strange indeed. Some cars made by Toyota (a Japanese company) are more American made (both the parts and the manufacturing plants) than some models of Ford (an American company)! Many US companies are moving manufacturing overseas, while companies like Toyota, Honda, Kia and some European companies build cars in the US.


Dave - were I live has one of the largest Toyota plants in the world. They also were just awarded the contract, starting in 2015, for the Lexus, first ones to be built in the US. When this starts they will make 555,000 cars a year, total of all the types made here in central Kentucky.

Know why they do so well here rather in in other parts of the world? NO UNIONS!

UAW has tried for years to get a foot in the door. Employees don't want it as they make more than the UAW workers make elsewhere.


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## jis

the_traveler said:


> It's kinda ironic that Japan makes large portions of Boeing's jets, and a Japanese airline is not buying those jets!


Let's not go overboard here. JAL and ANA are still buying huge number of Boeing jets. This particular deal is a news item because this is the very first time that JAL has ordered substantial number that is not Boeing. But this does not mean that they have ceased to order predominantly Boeing.
BTW, Japanese engineering companies have substantial deals with Airbus to supply components for its newer planes, specially in the area of Carbon Fiber components, same as for Boeing. Here is what is mentioned on the Airbus site:



> Airbus also has fostered strong industrial partnerships in Japan for all of its current production aircraft – from the A330 and A350 XWB widebody families to the single-aisle A320 and flagship A380 jetliners – reflecting its confidence in Japanese skills, reliability, technological leadership and quality standards.
> 
> Companies such as Bridgestone, Panasonic, Yokogawa Electric and Minebea contribute to all of Airbus’ current production aircraft, while Toray and Toho Tenax signed a long-term agreement in 2010 to supply carbon fibre for the company’s aircraft. In total, Japanese partnerships with Airbus range from 17 companies for the double-deck A380, to 12 each for the A320 and A330 Families, as well as four for the next-generation A350 XWB widebody.
> 
> In Japan, Airbus also benefits from research and technology cooperation including: developing structural health monitoring technology with Japan’s Research and Development Institute for Metal and Composites for Future Industries (RIMCOF), as well as composite research with the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA).


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## railiner

What surprises me is that Mitsubishi, or some other Japanese manufacturer never got into making large jetliner's. What was the last successful airliner made in Japan, the NAMC YS-11 turboprop?


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## Bob Dylan

This is a Reminder of How Japan is Still Very Important to the US Economy! China and Europe get All of the Media Attention, but we have Extensive Financial Dealings with Japan! That's why Ambassadors like Ex-VP Mondale and Ambassador-Designee Carolyn Kennedy are sent to Tokyo! Most of us know that the Boeing/AirBus Competition is a World Wide Contest!


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## Swadian Hardcore

The thing is, Boeing's 787 can't really match the A350 in capacity. JAL wants something to replace their 777s, but the 787 can't do it, more 777Ws would be obsolete by the time they are delivered, and the 777X is still only a design proposal. If JAL wants big, modern aircraft and they want them fast, the A350 is the way to go.

Airbus does make some pretty good airliners, the A320 Family is argubly better than the 737, the A380 is a huge and efficient VLA, and the A330 is a good plane to fly on as well except for the awkward raised section at the back. Then again, it's not comfortable to fly at the back of most other aircraft. Big bust was the A340, it was obsolete from the start.


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## RampWidget

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The thing is, Boeing's 787 can't really match the A350 in capacity. JAL wants something to replace their 777s, but the 787 can't do it, more 777Ws would be obsolete by the time they are delivered, and the 777X is still only a design proposal. If JAL wants big, modern aircraft and they want them fast, the A350 is the way to go.
> 
> Airbus does make some pretty good airliners, the A320 Family is argubly better than the 737, the A380 is a huge and efficient VLA, and the A330 is a good plane to fly on as well except for the awkward raised section at the back. Then again, it's not comfortable to fly at the back of most other aircraft. Big bust was the A340, it was obsolete from the start.


However, the newer stretched 787-9 does closely match the A350's pax capacity with the benefit of increased range over the 787-8 as well.

But you are correct, Airbus does manufacture a quality product, and will soon be doing so Stateside with their planned A320 plant at Brookley Field in Mobile, Ala.


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## Swadian Hardcore

RampWidget said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, Boeing's 787 can't really match the A350 in capacity. JAL wants something to replace their 777s, but the 787 can't do it, more 777Ws would be obsolete by the time they are delivered, and the 777X is still only a design proposal. If JAL wants big, modern aircraft and they want them fast, the A350 is the way to go.
> 
> Airbus does make some pretty good airliners, the A320 Family is argubly better than the 737, the A380 is a huge and efficient VLA, and the A330 is a good plane to fly on as well except for the awkward raised section at the back. Then again, it's not comfortable to fly at the back of most other aircraft. Big bust was the A340, it was obsolete from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> However, the newer stretched 787-9 does closely match the A350's pax capacity with the benefit of increased range over the 787-8 as well.
> 
> But you are correct, Airbus does manufacture a quality product, and will soon be doing so Stateside with their planned A320 plant at Brookley Field in Mobile, Ala.
Click to expand...

Thye 787-9 is pretty big, but it's not going to match an A350-1000 or even an A350-900, it can only match the A350-800. According to spec sheets, the 787-10 is comparable to the A350-900. The XWB also has a wider cabin.

At this point, I think the A350-1000 will be the next hotshot of the large aircraft, in place of the very popular 777-300ER. After the A350-1000, Boeing could regin the advatage if the 777-9X is successful, but if the latter is bust, then Airbus is likely to just improve the A350 even more and keep a lead over Boeing on large aircraft, expanding on their A380 advantage.


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## railiner

I find it interesting to see how the tides of change came to the airliner industry. I wonder if Boeing made a stategic mistake in allowing Airbus to take away the 'prestige' status of having the largest airliner....true, their market research told them it would not be a commercial success, but still i wonder. I suppose one big reason that they did not pursue that market, was the fact that none of the US carrier's had any interest in buying them.

If only Juan Trippe and PanAm still existed.....things might have been very different today.... :unsure:


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## jis

It is interesting that within the last three weeks both Lufthansa and Air France have made subtle noises to the effect that the 380 is too much aircraft for their fleet. Lufthansa actually canceled 3 options.


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## Swadian Hardcore

jis said:


> It is interesting that within the last three weeks both Lufthansa and Air France have made subtle noises to the effect that the 380 is too much aircraft for their fleet. Lufthansa actually canceled 3 options.


Looks like Europe has too many airlines with fortress hubs to pack A380s into each of them. BA might be doing better because they have a larger network. LH and AF might order a bunch more A350s and cancel more A380s.


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## Texan Eagle

jis said:


> It is interesting that within the last three weeks both Lufthansa and Air France have made subtle noises to the effect that the 380 is too much aircraft for their fleet. Lufthansa actually canceled 3 options.


Add Delta to the list of airlines that have spoken against the A380-

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/10/08/delta-air-lines-vs-the-airbus-a380.aspx

I find this most amusing since Delta doesn't even have any A380s nor has any plans to get them, so why make unnecessary noise about something that doesn't impact you?


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## railiner

Thanks for that interesting link....re: Delta's Richard Anderson speaking against the A380.

They say that Delta is pressuring its partner Virgin America cancel its A380 order. I'll bet Richard Branson doesn't agree with that, although, I don't know how much he has to say about Virgin America now.....


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## jis

According to some Virgin Atlantic has already been a bit iffy about its 380 order. Time will tell what they will do.


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## Texan Eagle

jis said:


> According to some Virgin Atlantic has already been a bit iffy about its 380 order. Time will tell what they will do.


I am still very curious to see at least some airline make A380 work with something crazy like 700-800 seats in all-Economy configuration. How the boarding, on-board catering etc is handled for such a crowd would be interesting to see, but no airline seems to be interested in doing that type of thing. The closest I guess is Russian's TransAero that plans to put 650 seats on A380.

http://enginealliance.com/pr/pr_082913.html


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## Bob Dylan

Texan Eagle said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to some Virgin Atlantic has already been a bit iffy about its 380 order. Time will tell what they will do.
> 
> 
> 
> I am still very curious to see at least some airline make A380 work with something crazy like 700-800 seats in all-Economy configuration. How the boarding, on-board catering etc is handled for such a crowd would be interesting to see, but no airline seems to be interested in doing that type of thing. The closest I guess is Russian's TransAero that plans to put 650 seats on A380.
> 
> http://enginealliance.com/pr/pr_082913.html
Click to expand...

Most of all are Too Young to Remember the "Cattle Cars" of Laker Airlines from JFK to London back in the Day!!!Steerage Class would be putting it Mildly! hboy: (But the Prices Sure Were Low!!!  )


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## railiner

Didn't JAL have some short-haul 747's on its Tokyo/Osaka shuttle run with something like 550 all coach seating a while back?


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Thanks for that interesting link....re: Delta's Richard Anderson speaking against the A380.
> 
> They say that Delta is pressuring its partner Virgin America cancel its A380 order. I'll bet Richard Branson doesn't agree with that, although, I don't know how much he has to say about Virgin America now.....


Virgin America? Do you mean Virgin Atlantic?



Texan Eagle said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to some Virgin Atlantic has already been a bit iffy about its 380 order. Time will tell what they will do.
> 
> 
> 
> I am still very curious to see at least some airline make A380 work with something crazy like 700-800 seats in all-Economy configuration. How the boarding, on-board catering etc is handled for such a crowd would be interesting to see, but no airline seems to be interested in doing that type of thing. The closest I guess is Russian's TransAero that plans to put 650 seats on A380.
> 
> http://enginealliance.com/pr/pr_082913.html
Click to expand...

I thought Skymark Airlines was planning to put a high-density config in their A380s when they get them. Don't know the current status of that plan. It would probably be unprofitable for more major airlines to use such a config.



railiner said:


> Didn't JAL have some short-haul 747's on its Tokyo/Osaka shuttle run with something like 550 all coach seating a while back?


I'm pretty sure they did, they had the -SR and the Domestics that carried over 500 passengers. JAL still has the 773 on domestic routes which carries exaclty 500 passengers in a 78C/422Y layout. ANa must have something similar but I can't find any seat maps. JAL might use the A350 to replace those planes when the time comes or else they would have to wait for the 777-9X.


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## Texan Eagle

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't JAL have some short-haul 747's on its Tokyo/Osaka shuttle run with something like 550 all coach seating a while back?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they did, they had the -SR and the Domestics that carried over 500 passengers. JAL still has the 773 on domestic routes which carries exaclty 500 passengers in a 78C/422Y layout. ANa must have something similar but I can't find any seat maps. JAL might use the A350 to replace those planes when the time comes or else they would have to wait for the 777-9X.
Click to expand...

ANA's mammoth 565 seater domestic 747 seat map:


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## railiner

Texan Eagle said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't JAL have some short-haul 747's on its Tokyo/Osaka shuttle run with something like 550 all coach seating a while back?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they did, they had the -SR and the Domestics that carried over 500 passengers. JAL still has the 773 on domestic routes which carries exaclty 500 passengers in a 78C/422Y layout. ANa must have something similar but I can't find any seat maps. JAL might use the A350 to replace those planes when the time comes or else they would have to wait for the 777-9X.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ANA's mammoth 565 seater domestic 747 seat map:
Click to expand...

That's some load!

One thing re: A380 vs B747......the 747 holds a record that will unlikely ever be broken by an A380.....the most souls ever carried on any aircraft....it was during an evacuation from Ethiopia to Israel in 1991, of refugee's, with many children, by an El Al 747 taking an incredible load of 1,086. And it landed with 1,089, three more than it took off with, due to births enroute!


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## Swadian Hardcore

Is that plane still in service? I think ANA only has one 747 left, a 747-481D which is probably in that config. However, it's getting retired very soon as all the other 747s have already been parked and JAL has none left either. The 777-346/381 will be the next large domestic aircraft of the Japanese carriers.


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## railiner

railiner said:


> Thanks for that interesting link....re: Delta's Richard Anderson speaking against the A380.
> 
> They say that Delta is pressuring its partner Virgin America cancel its A380 order. I'll bet Richard Branson doesn't agree with that, although, I don't know how much he has to say about Virgin America now.....


I should have said Virgin Atlantic.....don't think the Virgin America will ever need a 'super'....


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## Swadian Hardcore

railiner said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't JAL have some short-haul 747's on its Tokyo/Osaka shuttle run with something like 550 all coach seating a while back?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they did, they had the -SR and the Domestics that carried over 500 passengers. JAL still has the 773 on domestic routes which carries exaclty 500 passengers in a 78C/422Y layout. ANa must have something similar but I can't find any seat maps. JAL might use the A350 to replace those planes when the time comes or else they would have to wait for the 777-9X.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ANA's mammoth 565 seater domestic 747 seat map:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's some load!
> 
> One thing re: A380 vs B747......the 747 holds a record that will unlikely ever be broken by an A380.....the most souls ever carried on any aircraft....it was during an evacuation from Ethiopia to Israel in 1991, of refugee's, with many children, by an El Al 747 taking an incredible load of 1,086. And it landed with 1,089, three more than it took off with, due to births enroute!
Click to expand...

Wow, what version was that? Freighter or pax? Really is a huge amount of passengers. They must've had trouble taking off and I assume the cruise speed was reduced as well. Maybe the A380 will beat that if another airline is forced to use them to fly an emergency load.



railiner said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that interesting link....re: Delta's Richard Anderson speaking against the A380.
> 
> They say that Delta is pressuring its partner Virgin America cancel its A380 order. I'll bet Richard Branson doesn't agree with that, although, I don't know how much he has to say about Virgin America now.....
> 
> 
> 
> I should have said Virgin Atlantic.....don't think the Virgin America will ever need a 'super'....
Click to expand...

Unless they want to start a Virgin Pacific which might not be unlikely considering V Australia is owned by the same company.


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