# Longest Amtrak train



## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 22, 2012)

Excluding the Auto Train and PVs, what is Amtrak's longest reguler consist? I've heard Coast Starlight or Lake Shore Limited. Any longer ones?


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 22, 2012)

LSL W of Albany...


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## boxcar479 (Feb 22, 2012)

Does Private Varnish count as Amtrak's rolling stock?


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## Ryan (Feb 22, 2012)

No.

And the LSL is the correct answer.


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## johnny.menhennet (Feb 22, 2012)

Can't the EB in the summer between MSP and CHI be longer than the LSL in any season? (I'm not counting baggages)


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## Trogdor (Feb 22, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Can't the EB in the summer between MSP and CHI be longer than the LSL in any season? (I'm not counting baggages)


If we exclude engines and baggage:

Empire Builder in peak season: 3 sleepers (2 Seattle, 1 Portland), 1 dorm, 1 lounge, 1 diner, five coaches (2 Seattle, 2 Portland, 1 MSP). Total, 11 cars. There are extremely rare occasions where you get more than that (I think, after a recent disruption had the route shut down for a couple of days, there was an extra coach on both the Seattle and Portland sides to clear the loads), but practically speaking, the Builder's max is 11 cars.

Incidentally, that's also the same max that you'll see on the Starlight: 1 dorm, 3 sleepers, 1 Parlour, 1 diner, 1 lounge, 4 coaches.

The Lake Shore has 3 sleepers, six coaches, a diner and a lounge. Total, 11 cars. However, sometimes, the Lake Shore will run with a seventh coach, and during the winter (though not right now), the Lake Shore can get a second lounge so the New York section's consist can rotate with the Silver Star down to Florida. That would put the Lake Shore at 12 cars, which beats the Empire Builder by one.

Of course, the Builder wins when counting total capacity, since Superliners carry more than Amfleets/Viewliners do.


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## Ryan (Feb 22, 2012)

Why not, they are a part of the train?

From the line number thread:


```
EMPIRE BUILDER — 5 sets
2 cars CHI-MSP (seasonal)

----|---- [CHI-SEA] Heritage Baggage
0732|0832 [CHI-SEA] Superliner Dorm/Sleeper
0731|0831 [CHI-SEA] Superliner Sleeper
0730|0830 [CHI-SEA] Superliner Sleeper
----|---- [CHI-SEA] Superliner Diner
0711|0811 [CHI-SEA] Superliner Coach
0712|0812 [CHI-SEA] Superliner Coach
----|---- [CHI-PDX] Superliner Sightseer Lounge
2714|2814 [CHI-PDX] Superliner Coach
2715|2815 [CHI-PDX] Superliner Coach/Baggage
2730|2830 [CHI-PDX] Superliner Sleeper
0709|0809 [CHI-MSP] Superliner Coach*

* seasonal


LAKE SHORE LIMITED — 3 sets

----|---- [CHI-BOS] Heritage Baggage
4820|4920 [CHI-BOS] Viewliner Sleeper
4841|4941 [CHI-BOS] Amfleet II Coach
4840|4940 [CHI-BOS] Amfleet II Coach
----|---- [CHI-BOS] Lounge (Horizon or Amfleet I Dinette, or Amfleet II Lounge)
4833|4933 [CHI-NYP] Amfleet II Coach
4832|4932 [CHI-NYP] Amfleet II Coach
4831|4931 [CHI-NYP] Amfleet II Coach
4830|4930 [CHI-NYP] Amfleet II Coach
----|---- [CHI-NYP] Amfleet II Lounge
----|---- [CHI-NYP] Heritage Diner
4811|4911 [CHI-NYP] Viewliner Sleeper
4812|4912 [CHI-NYP] Viewliner Sleeper
----|---- [CHI-NYP] Heritage Baggage
```
If you don't count bags, the LSL still has 1 more car.


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## TraneMan (Feb 22, 2012)

EB has 10 cars, and some time 11 between MSP and CHI.

EB last winter had to be joined together, so 20 cars due to the weather.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 23, 2012)

boxcar817 said:


> Does Private Varnish count as Amtrak's rolling stock?


I said in the OP that PVs DONT'T COUNT! Unless you don't know what a PV is!



johnny.menhennet said:


> Can't the EB in the summer between MSP and CHI be longer than the LSL in any season? (I'm not counting baggages)





Trogdor said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Can't the EB in the summer between MSP and CHI be longer than the LSL in any season? (I'm not counting baggages)
> ...



Please include baggage cars, as they are operated by Amtrak and are not powered. Locomotives don't count because they are powered.

How long is the LSL these days including baggage cars? I saw a video of an LSL with fourteen, but can't remember the link.


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## johnny.menhennet (Feb 23, 2012)

You are right that the LSL is definitely the longest if you include baggage cars, since it is the only train to have two.


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## PerRock (Feb 23, 2012)

there was that the combo train Amtrak ran once on the Michigan line when the Chicago Line was closed for a derailment. Twas a slew up of both the LSL & the CL... It ran between Toledo & Chicago, but only once.

Here is the consist:



> P42DC #30 - ITCS leader Consist for 29/_Capitol __Limited_ P42DC #141
> 
> P42DC #142
> 
> ...


Total of 18 cars.



peter

Edit: sorry formatting messed up the quote. I think I got all the cars back...


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## caravanman (Feb 23, 2012)

Hi

Yeah I know its not Amtrak but Prayag Raj Express is an Indian Railways' express train which runs between the cities of Allahabad and New Delhi, India. It has 24 coaches including 7 air-conditioned coaches.

Ed


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## jis (Feb 23, 2012)

There are several trains in India that are 24 cars these days. And surprisingly they are all pulled by single electric engines, usually WAP4 or WAP7 Co-Co units.


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## dlagrua (Feb 23, 2012)

One point worthy of mention is that many Amtrak routes experience their share of sold out trains. If Amtrak were able to make up a consist based on the number of travelers who want to ride the train, revenues would be so much higher. Even the 3/4 mile long Autotrain sells out during peak season. This only confirms the need for more equipment but presently there is none and no Superliners are even on order. Amtrak is continually pressured to take less of a subsidy from congress but they have repeatedly refused to give Amtrak the tools that it needs to grow. Still they continue to grow and when gas hits $5 per gallon their ridership could explode.


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## Trogdor (Feb 23, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How long is the LSL these days including baggage cars?


See reply #7, which was posted two hours before your question.



dlagrua said:


> Even the 3/4 mile long Autotrain sells out during peak season. This only confirms the need for more equipment but presently there is none and no Superliners are even on order.


I think the Auto Train runs up against the HEP limitation for consist length, so even if there were more cars to be added, during peak season the Auto Train is already as long as it can be.


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## Anderson (Feb 23, 2012)

dlagrua said:


> One point worthy of mention is that many Amtrak routes experience their share of sold out trains. If Amtrak were able to make up a consist based on the number of travelers who want to ride the train, revenues would be so much higher. Even the 3/4 mile long Autotrain sells out during peak season. This only confirms the need for more equipment but presently there is none and no Superliners are even on order. Amtrak is continually pressured to take less of a subsidy from congress but they have repeatedly refused to give Amtrak the tools that it needs to grow. Still they continue to grow and when gas hits $5 per gallon their ridership could explode.


I'll agree that such is a "when" (inflation being what it is, nominal $5 gas is inevitable provided that the dollar endures long enough), but I'm not sure that $5 gas is coming in the next year or two. I think $4+ gas may be the new normal (at least, during summers, though $3-3.50 will probably have supporting roles in this show during the winter), but $5 is still a little ways off,* at least on a national basis (Hawai'i does not matter for our purposes). It's a long way from $4 to $5.

What is more likely than a ridership explosion, however, is a fare explosion. If I had to take a guess, the "big five" buckets will jump substantially (I'm thinking 10-20% over two years...or roughly what we've seen over the last year or two), but something along the lines of the NER's "25% off under the following terms and conditions" will also be expanded to cover at least some long-distance segments. As-is, you tend to see something like this south of Orlando on the Silvers with the "weekly deals"...my guess would be that you see an expansion of that from being variable to being fairly standard on segments such as MIA-ORL/TPA (to throw the most obvious one out there) or Denver-Reno.

This is a strange question that I don't like to bring up because I know that the horse has been beaten to death, but...*deep breath*

Are there any circumstances where Amtrak would be under enough pressure to at least consider leasing the Hi-Levels from Illinois for a few years to fill a gap (for example, throwing them in as a set of corridor-on-LD cars)? I know that Amtrak does not _want_ to operate these cars, but considering the equipment jam...let's just say that "want" and "need" may increasingly be two different things.** The Superliner shortage is only "deterministic" with sleepers, not coaches.***

The other question I have is whether Amtrak could approach VIA about a joint order the next time VIA puts in a bid of some kind (and I would extend this to some of the mass transit agencies if they end up placing single-level orders for something...if the extent of the difference between the cars is a bathroom and legroom, I don't see a problem piggybacking)?

*Of course, this depends on a lot of things surrounding Iran and the Middle East. If that all goes to Helena, Montana then things look different. I'm not inclined to place a bet either way there.

**To be fair, I'd put them all in the Midwest to keep the maintenance base in CHI, and use them to shift some Superliners to CA. The main use, as I noted, would be the shorter-distance components of the Eagle, Builder, Zephyr, and potentially the Chief (I don't know what the CHI-KCY numbers look like). Even if the use was seasonal (for example, to allow Amtrak to shift some cars to CA for the "Sparks Cars" plan), it's better than nothing. The flipside of this: How bad would things have to get for Amtrak to seriously consider them as a short-term (say, 3-5 year) stopgap?

***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?


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## jis (Feb 23, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> I think the Auto Train runs up against the HEP limitation for consist length, so even if there were more cars to be added, during peak season the Auto Train is already as long as it can be.


Specially considering that Amtrak or is it FRA(?) does not allow split double HEP circuits in a train with two sections being fed from two different HEP source, which is a common practice in India on super long trains.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 23, 2012)

Its not Amtrak, but during the peak travel season VIA's Canadian runs with up to 20 cars, including the baggage.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Feb 23, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Its not Amtrak, but during the peak travel season VIA's Canadian runs with up to 20 cars, including the baggage.


Oh, but I have been on it with 30 cars, though three of them were deadhead.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 23, 2012)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Oh, but I have been on it with 30 cars, though three of them were deadhead.


I have to wonder, with VIA's HEP configuration of dual 440v lines running both sides of the cars, what their consist limit is? If you are pushing the legal limit for HEP on Amtrak's Auto Train with the current consist, you have to think about the differences between two fleets and which one works better over-all for flexibility.


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## afigg (Feb 23, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Are there any circumstances where Amtrak would be under enough pressure to at least consider leasing the Hi-Levels from Illinois for a few years to fill a gap (for example, throwing them in as a set of corridor-on-LD cars)? I know that Amtrak does not _want_ to operate these cars, but considering the equipment jam...let's just say that "want" and "need" may increasingly be two different things.** The Superliner shortage is only "deterministic" with sleepers, not coaches.***


We may see something like in this direction if the Iowa Pacific Company plans to add a special Pullman set of cars onto the Lake Shore Limited and I guess the City of New Orleans pan out. They have a very short web site placeholder. Details are sketchy, but the company has or is refurbishing a number of Pullman cars for a premium sleeper and diner service to operate on a regular schedule between NYC, Chicago, and New Orleans. Thread at the Trains Magazine site with some information on this plan.

The cars would presumably be treated as PVs where the Iowa Pacific handles the room bookings and supplies the crew for the Pullman cars. If there is a 2 or 3 car set of PVs that are added to the LSL on a regularly scheduled basis, does that count as part of the Amtrak LSL "normal" consist?

Thinking about it, the Iowa Pacific operation could also run on the Cardinal for peak scenery times of the year. But this would be a premium service with a seriously premium price tag I would expect.



Anderson said:


> The other question I have is whether Amtrak could approach VIA about a joint order the next time VIA puts in a bid of some kind (and I would extend this to some of the mass transit agencies if they end up placing single-level orders for something...if the extent of the difference between the cars is a bathroom and legroom, I don't see a problem piggybacking)?


When was the last time VIA ordered new equipment (not including locomotives) for its LD fleet or corridor trains? {seriously off-topic for this thread though]


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## Blackwolf (Feb 23, 2012)

afigg said:


> When was the last time VIA ordered new equipment (not including locomotives) for its LD fleet or corridor trains? {seriously off-topic for this thread though]


New cars actually ordered by VIA for their services? The 1970's order for what are now known as LRC, of which the last cars to roll off the line were mid-1980's. The Renaissance/NightStar cars were a fluke; a whole fleet of brand new but half-finished cars that Alstrom needed to get rid of _badly_ or just send to the scrapper. An offer VIA could not refuse due to the junk-stock price tag.

With the money being sunk into rebuilding the whole VIA fleet (Budd/LRC/Renaissance) I don't see any new orders for cars. In fact, VIA boasts about their oldest, 1950's era Budds being in front-line service for at least another 25 years. No, Amtrak will be on their own in terms of new rolling stock on an international level IMHO.


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## Anderson (Feb 23, 2012)

I know their LD fleet is super-old and they're refurbishing it. What is their corridor fleet (i.e. the Quebec/Ontario services) made up of? The LRCs?


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## Texan Eagle (Feb 23, 2012)

jis said:


> There are several trains in India that are 24 cars these days. And surprisingly they are all pulled by single electric engines, usually WAP4 or WAP7 Co-Co units.


Most of the popular long-distance express trains in India are now 24 car long, and pulled by a single electric or diesel locomotive. I once had the fortune of riding in a 24 car long train being pulled by a single 3100hp diesel locomotive, over a section involving significant grades. It was fun to hear the poor locomotive growl as it chugged its way through the hills!

It is fun to ride in such extra-long trains, especially when you can see the whole length snaking ahead on curves. Here's is one photo from my recent India trip, taken from the 21st car looking ahead. There were 2 more cars behind me, making it a 23 car train.

_Edit: Just realized, after the 23 passenger carrying cars there was one High Capacity Parcel Van making it a __*24*__ car consist overall, the maximum currently allowed on Indian Railways for passenger trains._


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## jis (Feb 23, 2012)

That looks way familiar. Between Gurpa and Gajhandi on the Grand Chord? Is this your 6 hours behind schedule Mumbai Mail via Allahabad?


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## Texan Eagle (Feb 23, 2012)

jis said:


> That looks way familiar. Between Gurpa and Gajhandi on the Grand Chord? Is this your 6 hours behind schedule Mumbai Mail via Allahabad?


Yes, that is a very late-running Howrah-Mumbai Mail in the hills between Gurpa and Gajhandi on the Grand Chord.


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## Donctor (Feb 23, 2012)

Ryan said:


> Why not, they are a part of the train?
> 
> From the line number thread:
> 
> ...


48/49 don't have a lounge right now


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## mfastx (Feb 23, 2012)

This thread would be a bit better with pictures and videos of said trains, no?


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 23, 2012)

mfastx said:


> This thread would be a bit better with pictures and videos of said trains, no?


you could try YouTube...


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## mfastx (Feb 23, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> you could try YouTube...


It's been done, lol.


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## PerRock (Feb 23, 2012)

mfastx said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > you could try YouTube...
> ...


Here is a vid of my submission:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=imXO3qFSODc

peter

PS: and after watching the vid, I counted 22 cars, not counting the Cabbage at the beginning, as it's only the ITCS protection unit & not hauling baggage).


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## NS VIA Fan (Feb 23, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, but I have been on it with 30 cars, though three of them were deadhead.
> ...


And here's a 30 car Ocean on Nov. 9, 2005.

VIA #15 OCEAN w/b Truro, NS

6420 F40

6409 F40

6431 F40

8622 Baggage

8113 Coach

8138 Coach

8117 Coach

8506 Skyline Dome

Chateau Dollard

Chateau Richelieu

Chateau Salaberry

Acadian Diner

Chateau Argenson

Chateau Iberville

Chateau Bienville

Chateau Levis

Chateau Closse

Chateau Maisonneuve

Fairholme Diner

Chateau Jolliet

Dawson Manor

Hunter Manor

Stuart Manor

MacDonald Manor

Chateau Lauzon

Louise Diner

Chateau Marquette

Osler Manor

Grant Manor

Thompson Manor

Allan Manor

Chateau Laval

Glacier Park Dome Observation

Total:

3 - F40's

30 - cars (Including: 21 Sleepers + 3 Diners)


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## Texan Eagle (Feb 23, 2012)

mfastx said:


> This thread would be a bit better with pictures and videos of said trains, no?


There you go, see not one but


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## Montanan (Feb 23, 2012)

Don't quote me on this, but I believe I've read somewhere that for operational reasons, Via has reduced the maximum length of the Canadian, so the 30-car trains are a thing of the past. (And even a 30-car train didn't carry as many people as you might think, since the capacity of a sold-out Budd sleeping car is only about 22 or so.)

The longest Amtrak train I've ever been on was a couple of years ago, when a derailment in Illinois caused the Zephyr and Southwest Chief to be combined into a single train, and detoured over the old Santa Fe route between Galesburg and Joliet.


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## afigg (Feb 23, 2012)

Ok, if we are going beyond regularly scheduled Amtrak trains with the VIA Canadian, doubled up LD trains, long trains in India, etc. One of the key specifications for the ACS-64 electric locomotives is that they are to be able to pull 18 cars at 125 mph. Would not expect to see that happen very often in normal service! However, it is one of the specifications, so it will have to be confirmed as part of the testing of the first unit or units. So there will be the opportunity for the eagle eyed or alert railfan to take a video of an ACS-64 hauling 18 Amfleets (maybe with some Viewliner IIs) in deadhead test runs on the NEC between WAS and NYP. Ideally a video of the train blasting through a station at 125 mph.


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## railiner (Feb 23, 2012)

IIRC, didn't Amtrak used to have a self-imposed arbitrary limit of 18 cars on their trains? I believe that number was arrived at by the limit of the longest platform at Pennsylvannia Station, New York. I seem to remember Florida trains of that length pulled from NYP by one of those big E-60's.

Prior to Amtrak, I believe Union Pacific's combined, so-called "City of Everywhere" carrying sections destined to Denver, Los Angeles, Oakland, and Portland would also stretch out close to 30 cars from Chicago to North Platte....


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## Anderson (Feb 23, 2012)

railiner said:


> IIRC, didn't Amtrak used to have a self-imposed arbitrary limit of 18 cars on their trains? I believe that number was arrived at by the limit of the longest platform at Pennsylvannia Station, New York. I seem to remember Florida trains of that length pulled from NYP by one of those big E-60's.
> 
> Prior to Amtrak, I believe Union Pacific's combined, so-called "City of Everywhere" carrying sections destined to Denver, Los Angeles, Oakland, and Portland would also stretch out close to 30 cars from Chicago to North Platte....


Amtrak has such a limit IIRC (Auto Train carriers excluded and unusual circumstances notwithstanding). However, the combined Silver Meteor/Champion of 1979 would get up to 28, which was _probably_ a "normal" Amtrak record. As to pre-Amtrak...if I'm not mistaken, when SP combined the Sunset with the Golden State, there was a time when that train would get up into the high 30s.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Feb 23, 2012)

I recall curving through the Rockies on an 18 superliner car combined CZ, Pioneer and Desert wind.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 24, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > There are several trains in India that are 24 cars these days. And surprisingly they are all pulled by single electric engines, usually WAP4 or WAP7 Co-Co units.
> ...


Nice! Care to explain the Mumbai Mail?

I remember seei9ng a pictures of a super long train in Mongolia. No link; does anybody have an idea.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 24, 2012)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> I recall curving through the Rockies on an 18 superliner car combined CZ, Pioneer and Desert wind.



Too bad it don't happen no more!


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## railiner (Feb 24, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > I recall curving through the Rockies on an 18 superliner car combined CZ, Pioneer and Desert wind.
> ...


Yes sir! Those were the days....one of the rare Amtrak trains that had two full diners. They were called by the on board service crews "The Chicago Diner", or "The Los Angeles Diner" according to their crew base. The "Chicago Diner" went to Oakland. The Pioneer got its food service car at Salt Lake City. Can't recall if it was a diner or SSL.


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## CREW DORM #2524 (Feb 24, 2012)

jis said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > I think the Auto Train runs up against the HEP limitation for consist length, so even if there were more cars to be added, during peak season the Auto Train is already as long as it can be.
> ...


There is nothing prohibiting split HEP. Auto Train is at its limit as far as current drawn thru the HEP cables. There has been talk of outfitting the rear portion of the consist with a generator in hopes of being able to add more cars.


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## jis (Feb 24, 2012)

CREW DORM #2524 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Trogdor said:
> ...


Good to know. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 24, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I know their LD fleet is super-old and they're refurbishing it. What is their corridor fleet (i.e. the Quebec/Ontario services) made up of? The LRCs?


VIA has two "Long-Distance" fleets in reality. The Montreal to Halifax _Ocean_ is normally assigned an all Renaissance-equipped route with three dedicated consists, but currently (and this has been the case over the past few winters) one of the consists has been taken out of service to rehab the rapidly aging interiors while upgrading the handicap access to meet new requirements. While this is happening, a stainless steel Budd consist is substituted. Outside this one route, all the other LD trains (_Canadian, The Pas, Winnipeg-Churchill, Gaspe', Prince Rupert)_ use the vintage Budd-built stainless steel cars that are circa 1950's.

For the corridor fleet, they use all three classes of passenger car. It all depends on which train you pick time-wise in the schedule that generally dictates your class of railcar. For instance, me and my wife will be on Train #57 between Montreal and Toronto next Tuesday and it will be an all Budd stainless steel consist (VIA calls this their HEP-II fleet, meaning the cars were originally steam heated but upgraded to Head End Power, then upgraded again so that the cars have MU cables to allow for either a cab-car or locomotives on both ends; they are identified by having both the blue stripe and a smaller reflective yellow stripe above the windows.) Meanwhile, Train #61, which departs on the same route one hour later is equipped with an LRC consist. Train #659, which departs Montreal at 4 PM, is a Renaissance-equipped train.

If you are curious, you can tell what each train will be equipped with by going to VIA's website and checking out the scheduled routes. Scroll your cursor over each train number, and the URL for the connecting information page on that train will contain in the last three characters either HE2, REN, or LRC; and now you know how to tell what equipment you'll be rewarded with!


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## jis (Feb 24, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Nice! Care to explain the Mumbai Mail?


What is there to explain? That is the train that you see in the picture posted by Texan. Normally it would pass that particular section in darkness, but it was in daylight this day because it was running late. I identified the section from the photo since that is on what used to be my old stomping grounds. There are a few railroad sections that I could qualify for with relatively little effort, and that section used to be one of them. It is on the Grand Chord line that is one of the main routes from Kolkata to Delhi.


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 24, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > I know their LD fleet is super-old and they're refurbishing it. What is their corridor fleet (i.e. the Quebec/Ontario services) made up of? The LRCs?
> ...



I've been trying to pull up the information, but am having trouble following your explanation. Maybe you could elaborate further about this in the VIA topic area? This would be helpful to know for booking corridor trains. Thanks! :hi:


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## Blackwolf (Feb 24, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I've been trying to pull up the information, but am having trouble following your explanation. Maybe you could elaborate further about this in the VIA topic area? This would be helpful to know for booking corridor trains. Thanks! :hi:


It used to be a little easier, but VIA recently changed their website just a little bit. I'll see if I can break the process down a little bit more to make things easy.

Go to VIA's website.

Using their booking widget, type in the city pair you want to travel between. I'll put in Montreal to Toronto, one way, for this example. Click search.

A new page will open, and on it will list all of your options for trains. _ I use Firefox for my browser, so when I hover my cursor over a link, on the bottom of my screen will pop up the URL address of the connecting web page. As such, if I hover my cursor over the underlined train number on VIA's scheduling page, I can look at the URL without actually opening the page._ If your browser does not do this, the next step is to click on a train number, then look at the URL in the address bar after it loads.

 

*Example: *javascriptpenClassInfo(3,'&t0=57&e0=*HP2*&s=0')

 

HP2 = Budd Stainless Steel cars.

LRC = Bombardier Light, Rapid, Comfortable cars.

REN = Alstrom Renaissance cars.

 

Hopefully that helps!!


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## mfastx (Feb 24, 2012)

PerRock said:


> Here is a vid of my submission:
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...h?v=imXO3qFSODc
> 
> ...


Great vid, thanks. 



Texan Eagle said:


> There you go, see not one but



Thanks for sharing.


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## The Davy Crockett (Feb 24, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Hopefully that helps!!


It did! :hi: Thanks! :hi:


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 24, 2012)

jis said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Nice! Care to explain the Mumbai Mail?
> ...


Oh, sorry!

What are its destinations?

Why so many pax?

Which class of train?

What locomotives?

By the way jis, are you Indian?


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## jis (Feb 25, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What are its destinations?


Howrah Mumbai Mail via Grand Chord and Allahabad runs from Howrah (Kolkata) to Mumbai CST (ex-Victoria Terminus) (Mumbai)



> Why so many pax?


India has a huge population the upper and middle echelons of it is remarkably mobile. Indian Railways is the mainstay of passenger transportation in India. Airlines are a relatively small proportion of passenger transport, and road transport works for short to medium haul, but not so well for long haul. So all long distance trains are perpetually overloaded. Standard LD consist these days is 20 to 24 cars. The super-fast Rajdhanis and Durontos are restricted to 18 or 19 cars.



> Which class of train?


That one is a Mail train which means that it carries mail/parcels. Mail trains are slower than the fastest express trains, but tend to continue running even when other trains are disrupted.



> What locomotives?


Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.

The other passenger workhorse for long LD trains in India is the WAP-7 class 25kV 50Hz 6350HP Co-Co units.

The shorter higher speed trains are also powered by the WAP-5 class 25kV 50Hz 5450HP B-Bo locomotives.

BTW WAP designates W="Broad Gauge", A=AC, P=Passenger.



> By the way jis, are you Indian?


Yes. First generation born in independent India. Spent over half my life in the US though.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 26, 2012)

jis said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > What are its destinations?
> ...


As far as locomotives go, what trains have the WDM-2? When were the WDM-1s retired?

How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?


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## Texan Eagle (Feb 26, 2012)

> > What locomotives?
> 
> 
> Texan can verify this, but from the picture it appears that that particular one is pulled by a WAP-4 class 25kV 50Hz 5300HP Co-Co locomotive.
> ...


This particular train is unique on the Indian Railways network as being one of those very few trains that are hauled by 4 different types of locomotives from source to destination-

1) From the start of the journey in Howrah to Allahabad it is hauled by *WAP-4 class* electric locomotive as *jis* mentioned

2) At Allahabad the train undergoes a reversal and the line from Allahabad to Itarsi is unelectrified so it gets a *WDP-4B class* diesel locomotive which is actually EMD's GT46 series locomotive.

3) From Itarsi to Igatpuri again it gets an 25kV 50Hz AC electric locomotive, this time of *WAM-4 class* which is the older and less powerful cousin of the WAP-4.

4) For the last leg from Igatpuri to Mumbai the locomotive is changed to a *WCAM-3 class* electric which can run on 1500V DC supply as well as 25kV 50Hz supply since parts of Mumbai are still under old 1500V DC traction.


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## Texan Eagle (Feb 26, 2012)

> As far as locomotives go, what trains have the WDM-2? When were the WDM-1s retired?


WDM-2 is the nomenclature given by Indian Railways to their classic 2600hp Alco diesel locomotives. For decades they have been the main workhorses across India's non-electrified routes. Over time Diesel Locomotive Works factory in India made some tweaks to the original design and came up with upgraded models based on original WDM-2 design, namely the 3100hp WDM-3A and 3300hp WDM-3D class. These three classes dominate the diesel routes in India even today, though their monopoly is slowly being challenged by the GM EMD GT46PAC and GT46MAC series diesel-electric locomotives being added to the fleet now. The WDM-1s were retired completely sometime in 1990s. You can find information about all different class of locomotives in use on Indian Railways here.



> How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?


What *jis *meant was, the 'Mail' trains get higher priority over other trains since traditionally they were entrusted with carrying postal mail and the British would not have liked that service being disrupted. So if there is any event that requires partial cancellation of trains over any route, for example a derailment or excessive fog, the 'Mail' trains will not come under the hammer first. They may be rescheduled, put on diverted routes but all efforts are made to ensure the 'Mail' trains are not outright cancelled unless absolutely necessary.


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## jis (Feb 26, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?


One common disruption is fog in the winter, which leads to such delays that they simply run out of consists. In face of such problem the Rajdhani Expresses and the premier Mails are least likely to get cancelled, though even they run into logistical roadblocks eventually and occasionally do get cancelled. OTOH the Mails definitely do not get the royal treatment from dispatchers that the Rajdhanis, Durontos and Shatabdis enjoy. So they do tend to get delayed more than those faster trains.

For example the Howrah Rajdhani consist gets turned in New Delhi between about 10am and 5pm. In foggy conditions it is not uncommon for the incoming to arrive after 5pm. They are then able to run the consist within a couple of hours and send it back on its way, and that is sufficient to ensure on time departure from Howrah for most Delhi bound Rajdhanis, since they use 3+1 (standby) consist to run a service that could theoretically be run with 2. OTOH Kalka Mail gets delayed more, and still is run consistently provided consist is available. It is not at all unusual for lesser through trains to simply get cancelled under those circumstances, just to reduce congestion caused by reduced effective capacity of the main line.

The dispatching problems are monumental since these higher speed trains have to be threaded through a barrage of freight trains roughly one running every 5 mins. The dispatcher's timetable sheet is indeed a sight to behold on a route like the Grand Chord or between Delhi and Kanpur Central.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 26, 2012)

jis said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > How do mail trains run even when others get disrupted? What kind of disruption are you talking about?
> ...


Oh, wow. Didn't know about Indian weather.


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## AlanB (Feb 27, 2012)

Anderson said:


> ***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?


Sure, if one had the modules and wanted to either throw away the existing unneeded modules or built new shells, you can make up the car anyway you want. They could even go to 3 bedrooms and drop two roomettes if they wanted. Stick in a lounge, whatever. The possibilities are many.

Superliners would be a whole different story, as you've got to physically knock down walls to change the layout of the car.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 27, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > ***And that's another question. I know that the new Viewliners are modular (so that, for example, you could change one to all-roomette, all-bedroom, etc.). Is there any room for switching-over on the Superliners?
> ...


Does module railcars have less structural integrity than one-piece railcars?


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## AlanB (Feb 27, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, but I have been on it with 30 cars, though three of them were deadhead.
> ...


Keep in mind that Superliners draw far more power than single level cars draw.


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## AlanB (Feb 27, 2012)

CREW DORM #2524 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Trogdor said:
> ...


I'm not so sure about that. There is an FRA regulation that requires the engineer to have the ability to monitor HEP in the cab. Now it doesn't say that HEP must be under his control, or that it must be located in the engine, but at the very least Amtrak would have to find some way to display the status of a generator car providing HEP to part of the train in the cab of the engine.

Additionally, while I cannot currently find any such rule (but didn't have much time to really research things), I have been told by a reliable source that HEP must be under the control of the engineer. That would mean that Amtrak would need more than just a monitor in the cab, they'd need a way for the engineer to kill both the HEP coming from the engine as well as from a generator car.


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## AlanB (Feb 27, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


I'm not enough of a mechanical engineer to truly answer that question.

I suspect that there would be a bit less structural integrity with a modular car than with a car like the Budd cars in Canada or even the Superliners, but again that's a guess. And I rather doubt that it would be a huge difference.


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## jis (Feb 27, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Does module railcars have less structural integrity than one-piece railcars?
> ...


In modern cars, structural integrity is provided by the sills and external skin and supporting structure of the car, and not by the internal furnishings. In bi-levels, the upper floors structure also contributes to the structural integrity, but not the seats or compartments installed within each floor.

So no, the modular cars would not have any detrimental effect on structural integrity of the shell, which is what protects those inside in a crash. An empty shell consisting only of the structural elements, should behave pretty much similarly to a fully furnished car in a collision


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks for the replies!

Another question:

After the Viewliner IIs come out, would the LSL get extra sleepers that would increse train length to 15-16 cars? That would be awesome!


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## Donctor (Feb 27, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> Another question:
> 
> After the Viewliner IIs come out, would the LSL get extra sleepers that would increse train length to 15-16 cars? That would be awesome!


There's no way to know with any certainty at this point.

48/49 could gain an extra sleeper. Keep in mind that plans change frequently, and that a plan doesn't necessarily become reality.


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## Trogdor (Feb 27, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Additionally, while I cannot currently find any such rule (but didn't have much time to really research things), I have been told by a reliable source that HEP must be under the control of the engineer. That would mean that Amtrak would need more than just a monitor in the cab, they'd need a way for the engineer to kill both the HEP coming from the engine as well as from a generator car.


How is it necessarily any different from operating with a cab car, with HEP coming from the engine at the other end of the train?


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## afigg (Feb 27, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Another question:
> 
> After the Viewliner IIs come out, would the LSL get extra sleepers that would increse train length to 15-16 cars? That would be awesome!


The LSL might indeed get an additional sleeper car for a total of 4: probably 3 on NYP section, 1 on the BOS section. As discussed here in several threads, the capacity constraint is the diner car which may get maxed out providing meals for 4 full sleeper cars.

Don't forget that the baggage-dorm will free up 8-9 roomettes currently used by the crew, so LSL will have more capacity even without adding a Viewliner sleeper. Keep in mind that Amtrak ordered only 25 additional sleeper cars to go along with the 50 Viewliners in service. Those will get spread around to the Silvers, Crescent, probably add 1 sleeper to the Cardinal, support the Pennsylvanian - Capitol Limited pass-through cars.


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## MrFSS (Feb 27, 2012)

This is a long train I videoed in 1992 at, I think, BWI.

*LINK*

* *

It was moving right along!


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## OlympianHiawatha (Feb 27, 2012)

MrFSS said:


> This is a long train I videoed in 1992 at, I think, BWI.
> 
> *LINK*
> 
> ...


I recognize the Diner and Slumbercoach; any idea what the other Heritage Cars are?


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## Anderson (Feb 27, 2012)

Bag

Bag

Bag(?)

Dorm

3 Coaches

Cafe

Twin Unit Diner

Slumbercoach

Sleeper

Sleeper

Cafe(?)

3 coaches

I'll need to check a schedule, but I _think_ that's the Silver Star if it's southbound (if the Meteor was doing a 7 PM NYP departure then); otherwise, it's the NB Meteor.


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## Donctor (Feb 27, 2012)

E60

MHC

Bag

Bag dorm

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 lounge

Buffet

Diner grill

Sleeper 10-6

Sleeper 10-6

Slumbercoach 24-8

Sleeper 10-6

Lounge

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Am2 coach

Definitely a Silver


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## MrFSS (Feb 27, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Bag
> 
> Bag
> 
> ...


It was southbound. We were on vacation and were taking the train to WASUS. Our hotel was near BWI.


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## Anderson (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm going to say it was the Star SB. I _think_ the Star split into two sections at one point.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 28, 2012)

How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.


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## Caesar La Rock (Feb 28, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.


As for why the SS has less cars. I think it has something to do with the heritage cars like the 10/6 sleepers, slumbercoaches, heritage buffet cars not having a retention toilets or something like that. I really don't know the story as to why Amtrak never added them to the heritage cars. I heard Superliners don't have them and they are still in service.


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## Trogdor (Feb 28, 2012)

THE CJ said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.
> ...


Superliners certainly do have retention tanks.


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## afigg (Feb 28, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.


Amtrak had this large pool of Heritage equipment in the 80s and early 90s that has been steadily retired for a variety of reasons, including the difficulties and costs of converting the toilet facilities and bringing the equipment into compliance with modern requirements. The original plan was to order a large fleet of modular Viewliners, including an order for 100 Viewliner sleepers. Well, that order was cut to 50 sleepers because of funding problems which has left Amtrak with the capacity shortage they now have for the remaining eastern LD trains. Wikipedia provides an overview of the Viewliner history, although I can not vouch for its complete accuracy. There are those on here who can provide a much more complete and detailed blow by blow history.

What would be interesting is to see what the ridership and sleeper passenger numbers were back in the 70s to the 90s in some detail for the Silver service trains to Florida. With the extra fleet capacity, Amtrak would have been able to provide a bunch of additional cars for the peak travel seasons. The 130 car CAF Viewliner order will provide some additional capacity, but not enough to run really long trains with 2 or more diners - if the demand is still there for that many sleeper rooms. The 120 Amfleet II LD coach cars are a capacity constraint for the eastern LD trains that has not yet been addressed.


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## jis (Feb 28, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> How did the SS get so much ridership? Why does it have much less cars nowadays? Maybe it was only because the Heritage sleepers had less capacity.


In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.


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## afigg (Feb 28, 2012)

jis said:


> In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.


The largest portion of the growth in ridership in the past 10 years has come from state supported and short distance corridors. In Amtrak's press release announcing the record FY11 ridership numbers, they break the ridership numbers for each FY back to FY00 by NEC, State supported and Short Distance, and LD categories. In FY00, LD trains carried in 4.02 million, dropped to a low of 3.73 million in FY06 (after cutbacks), then grew to 4.52 million in FY11. All this tells us is that there has not been a huge increase in total LD train ridership in the past 11 years. Meanwhile State-supported and Short-Distance category grew from 8.58 million in FY00 to 14.76 million in FY11.

Would be useful to see what the annual and, even better, the monthly ridership numbers were for the different LD trains going back to the 1970s. Somebody outside of Amtrak- NARP? - likely has that data or at least summaries of it. The monthly numbers for the Silvers would show how much seasonal variation there was back then that may now be lost business because of the lack of "surge" fleet capacity.

On the subject of a really long Silver Star or Meteor as shown in the video, I'm curious if those trains had to double stop at most stations on the trip? WAS could handle it, but that would be one long walk from the front of the train on the lower level track platforms to the stairs leading to Union Station. Is there a station information resource that lists how long the platforms are for the stations south of WAS on the route of the 2 Silver trains? (Which may need to be qualified by the still usable portion of the crumbling platforms in some cases). I know Raleigh's plans for their new station include a long high level platform so the Star does not have to double stop there. Wondering which stations can still handle 14-16 car trains in the east outside of the NEC.


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## AlanB (Feb 28, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Additionally, while I cannot currently find any such rule (but didn't have much time to really research things), I have been told by a reliable source that HEP must be under the control of the engineer. That would mean that Amtrak would need more than just a monitor in the cab, they'd need a way for the engineer to kill both the HEP coming from the engine as well as from a generator car.
> ...


As far as I know, and I do admit that I don't spend time in the cab part of cab cars, an engineer in a cab car can still cut the HEP from his position in the cab and does not need to walk back to the engine to drop the HEP.

Right now AFAIK, there is no facility within a P42 to monitor & control the HEP from any other source, except another P42 coupled in line. Even if there is a facility to monitor/control HEP from some "power car", the Superliner cars have no control cables (save the few modified for use on the Heartland Flyer), so there would be no way to get the data & control from a power car at the rear up to the head end.

Even PV's towed at the rear of an Amtrak train use HEP provided by Amtrak AFAIK and not their own generators when in motion behind an Amtrak train.


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## AlanB (Feb 28, 2012)

afigg said:


> On the subject of a really long Silver Star or Meteor as shown in the video, I'm curious if those trains had to double stop at most stations on the trip? WAS could handle it, but that would be one long walk from the front of the train on the lower level track platforms to the stairs leading to Union Station. Is there a station information resource that lists how long the platforms are for the stations south of WAS on the route of the 2 Silver trains? (Which may need to be qualified by the still usable portion of the crumbling platforms in some cases). I know Raleigh's plans for their new station include a long high level platform so the Star does not have to double stop there. Wondering which stations can still handle 14-16 car trains in the east outside of the NEC.


Several years ago, more than 5 but less than 10 I think, there was a couple of months where do to CSX construction Amtrak coupled the Silver Star to the Silver Meteor and ran a combined train between Florida & NY. Save NY, I believe that train needed to double spot at a minimum at every other station, and at many they were doing triple & even quad spots.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 29, 2012)

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.
> ...


Well at least you provided some information. My thanks.

Does anybody know the actual sleeper and coach capacity for that particular consist compared to today's SS consist? BTW, how many sleepers did Amtrak have at the most anyway?


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## Anderson (Feb 29, 2012)

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > In general Amtrak ridership back in those days was much lower than it is now. I don't know what Silver Star ridership was back then. Trains are generally shorter now due to lack of available equipment to make them longer.
> ...


I'm wondering if the Pennsylvanian got reallocated between LD and SD during the cutbacks. NYP-CHI is by definition LD, but at the same time it was a state-supported train that got extended IIRC. I know the Silver Palm became the Palmetto (losing service to Florida) during that timeframe. I'm trying to think if anything else was lost other than net sleeper capacity through pulling the Heritage sleepers out of the fleet.

Still, looking at the 2003-2011 numbers (the only ones I have a solid breakout by route on, and even there I have odd numbers for 2003 and 2004), the LD side of things have rebounded substantially. Mind you, looking at the slide between 2000 and 2003, a lot of that was Warrington raising fares while cutting service...revenue remained steady, but fares soared while ridership crashed. Oops.

Part of the reason for the short corridors getting the boost they have, though, has been increased frequencies. Since 2003, not a single LD train has been added, while even the addition of coaches has been sparing (to say nothing of sleeping cars), and you've actually _lost_ two services there (the Three Rivers and the Sunset East). On the NEC, you're close to peak-hour capacity around New York and Philadelphia, though some cars have been added. But on the state front, I know that there have been frequency increases on the Piedmont, the Downeaster, both of the Virginia routes, and I believe on the Surfliner. There's also a bit of inflation going on here, since the NEC included the NPN-WAS trains until 2005 (basically, that's a penalty of 400,000 riders against the NEC and a bonus of 400,000 to the state corridors when it comes to accounting).

Baseline/Adjusting for VA:

NEC Spine: +24%/+30% (Clockers excluded)

Short Corridors: +56%/+50%

Long Distance: +20%

At the risk of sounding comically formalistic, short corridors are growing because short corridors are growing. There's nothing magical going on here...trains are being added to state corridors and therefore ridership is rising. If Amtrak was magically given the equipment, funding, and authorization to run a daily Cardinal, a daily Sunset, and to run the proposed FEC service I suspect that you'd add another 250k-350k riders to the LD system. That would arguably be a minimalist expansion of the LD system (only one new service area being added, and one that Amtrak expects to produce an operating surplus; and two existing trains get daily coverage...all of which has received at least nominally serious discussion from Amtrak), but you'd probably get a 6-8% bump in ridership. Other options such as restoring the Silver Palm, reviving the Three Rivers, or adding another train somewhere in the system would add more ridership (and/or pull ridership off of state corridors...witness what happened to the Pennsylvanian's ridership when the Three Rivers got cut).

Another point I'll make for now: It's not that Amtrak doesn't have cars to shuffle at peak season on different routes...Amtrak has cars. The problem is that you can't move a Superliner from the Zephyr to the Silver Service in the winter unless you want a split-level train south of WAS...and we've been over the practical problems on this before.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 29, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I'm wondering if the Pennsylvanian got reallocated between LD and SD during the cutbacks. NYP-CHI is by definition LD, but at the same time it was a state-supported train that got extended IIRC. I know the Silver Palm became the Palmetto (losing service to Florida) during that timeframe. I'm trying to think if anything else was lost other than net sleeper capacity through pulling the Heritage sleepers out of the fleet.
> 
> Another point I'll make for now: It's not that Amtrak doesn't have cars to shuffle at peak season on different routes...Amtrak has cars. The problem is that you can't move a Superliner from the Zephyr to the Silver Service in the winter unless you want a split-level train south of WAS...and we've been over the practical problems on this before.


AFAIR the Palmetto continued to Florida for a short time before being cut back to Savanna.

No matter what, 50 Viewliners are not enough sleeper capacity for major eastern LDs. The LSL which is not supplemented anymore by the TR, the Cardinal despite a lengthy route, and the Crescent all need extra sleepers. Florida is OK for now. I don't think 25 extra sleepers will solve the problem, but some would disagree.


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## afigg (Mar 1, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I'm wondering if the Pennsylvanian got reallocated between LD and SD during the cutbacks. NYP-CHI is by definition LD, but at the same time it was a state-supported train that got extended IIRC.


The Pennsylvanian through all its permutations may have been treated as a LD versus state supported corridor train at different times. I had to look the train up on Wikipedia to see the long series of changes - extension to Chicago, truncation at PHL, mail cars, daylight service to Cleveland. Would be interesting to see the annual ridership numbers going back to 1980 for the Pennsylvanian in all its variations.



Anderson said:


> If Amtrak was magically given the equipment, funding, and authorization to run a daily Cardinal, a daily Sunset, and to run the proposed FEC service I suspect that you'd add another 250k-350k riders to the LD system. That would arguably be a minimalist expansion of the LD system (only one new service area being added, and one that Amtrak expects to produce an operating surplus; and two existing trains get daily coverage...all of which has received at least nominally serious discussion from Amtrak), but you'd probably get a 6-8% bump in ridership. Other options such as restoring the Silver Palm, reviving the Three Rivers, or adding another train somewhere in the system would add more ridership (and/or pull ridership off of state corridors...witness what happened to the Pennsylvanian's ridership when the Three Rivers got cut).


We are getting well off-topic for a thread that started with a question about the longest Amtrak train that is not the AutoTrain. Some of this is best discussed in the Best Days Lie Ahead /what we can expect in the next decade thread. Or, better yet, a new thread on where the LD trains could realistically be in 5 and in 10 years - assuming no massive shutdown as a result of the 2012 election which is looking better for Obama & the Dems. And given the a new era of high oil and gasoline prices.

Steering back to some extent on the subject of long Amtrak trains, if Amtrak had enough Amfleet II or new Viewliner LD coach cars, what would the ridership and sleeper numbers look like for:

Silver Meteor with baggage-dorm, 4 Viewliner sleepers, Viewliner Diner, cafe/lounge car, 5 to 6 coach cars. Use the extra capacity, with the only increase in staff cost being an additional LSA and lowered equipment cost with the Heritage cars retired, to lower ticket prices to maximize both ridership and revenue.

Silver Star with baggage-dorm, 3 sleepers, Viewliner Diner, cafe/lounge car, 4 to 5 coach cars. Maybe an additional cafe/lounge or even diner car and coach car if it get split at JAX to run over the FEC. If there is a big boost in business to/from north of JAX from running a split Silver Star over the FEC (which traverses a pretty densely populated coast), the Star could become a train rivaling the LSL for length.


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## afigg (Mar 1, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AFAIR the Palmetto continued to Florida for a short time before being cut back to Savanna.
> 
> No matter what, 50 Viewliners are not enough sleeper capacity for major eastern LDs. The LSL which is not supplemented anymore by the TR, the Cardinal despite a lengthy route, and the Crescent all need extra sleepers. Florida is OK for now. I don't think 25 extra sleepers will solve the problem, but some would disagree.


Wikipedia has a summary of all the variations for the Palmetto & Silver Palm. As for the CAF Viewliner order, yes, if Amtrak wants to run through Viewliner sleepers on the Pennsylvanian to the CL, provide a daily Cardinal with 2 sleeper cars, and have enough Viewliner sleepers to go to 4 total on the LSL, Sliver Meteor on a regular basis, and be able to go to 4 sleepers on the Star and Crescent when/if the demand is there, perhaps even restore a sleeper to the 66/67, they should have ordered more than 25 new sleepers. An order for 35 sleepers would allow for more peak travel periods capacity. The CAF order has an option for 70 cars, so Amtrak could order 10 more sleepers without having to rebid the order. Maybe Amtrak will do that next year, depending on the results of the elections this fall. But, again, a lot of this is more on-topic in other active threads.


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## jis (Mar 1, 2012)

Adding one sleeper to all existing single level sleeper service trains except 448/449 takes 17 sleeper (Star 4, Meteor 4, Crescent 4, LSL 3, Card 2). Making the Card daily takes 2 more. They should be able to pull all that off with 25 Sleepers. I doubt that 66/67 will get any sleeper. Alternatively they could do the Pennsy - Cap thing by not adding a Sleeper to the LSL or one of the Silvers.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 2, 2012)

Suppose Amtrak somehow bought all 70 options. :excl: Then, with the extra sleepers, how long could the LSL or Crescent become? The Crescent also dosen't have enough sleepers, keeps getting sold out.


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## Anderson (Mar 2, 2012)

One suspicion has been that the Crescent might get one or two sleepers that cut at ATL. NYP-ATL, the train is packed; ATL-NOL, not so much. As to the 25, I believe that there is room to "shake" at least 2, and probably 4, more sleepers in regular use out of that. I don't think Amtrak needs 8 sleepers out of 25 to cover contingencies; 4-6 seems more reasonable.

As to the options, while those could be reallocated, IIRC the split on them was 15 sleepers, 15 diners, 15 bag-dorms, and 25 baggage cars. If you were looking to exercise the whole batch, you'd probably want to cut most of the baggage cars and some of the bag-dorms...but you'd still need a few of the diners at the very least (since once you go past sleeper #4 on a single level, you _really _need either second dining car or a twin-unit [which Amtrak has no reason to order]). Going to 50/10/10/0 might be possible if Amtrak wanted/needed to and had the money.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> One suspicion has been that the Crescent might get one or two sleepers that cut at ATL. NYP-ATL, the train is packed; ATL-NOL, not so much. As to the 25, I believe that there is room to "shake" at least 2, and probably 4, more sleepers in regular use out of that. I don't think Amtrak needs 8 sleepers out of 25 to cover contingencies; 4-6 seems more reasonable.
> 
> As to the options, while those could be reallocated, IIRC the split on them was 15 sleepers, 15 diners, 15 bag-dorms, and 25 baggage cars. If you were looking to exercise the whole batch, you'd probably want to cut most of the baggage cars and some of the bag-dorms...but you'd still need a few of the diners at the very least (since once you go past sleeper #4 on a single level, you _really _need either second dining car or a twin-unit [which Amtrak has no reason to order]). Going to 50/10/10/0 might be possible if Amtrak wanted/needed to and had the money.


My calculations agree that a single Viewliner diner can only acommodate 4 sleepers. So if Amtrak got 50 sleepers, they would need 13 diners to go along. That's 63. The extra seven could be spares. But since this thread is about train length, let's just discuss future consists, which I already asked about in previous posts.


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## afigg (Mar 3, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Suppose Amtrak somehow bought all 70 options. :excl: Then, with the extra sleepers, how long could the LSL or Crescent become? The Crescent also dosen't have enough sleepers, keeps getting sold out.


The option includes a number of baggage cars which would only be needed if some Western LD trains were to be restored to service or for additional corridor trains with baggage service in the east.

If Amtrak were to exercise some of the option for 5-10 sleepers, those would be used for extend service on the current LD train or on through car from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited. If a number of additional Viewliner baggage-dorms, diners, and sleepers were ordered, those would be used to restore LD trains such the Three Rivers, Silver Palm, or start/restore some older LD train routes, not to extend the current LD trains. An order of 5 baggage-dorms, 5 diners, 15 sleepers would likely cover the Silver Palm and Three Rivers in combination with the current order. Well, if Amtrak had enough LD coach and cafe/lounge cars to support the trains, which would require an order for Viewliner coach cars or possibly converting some Horizons to LD coach configurations. The odds of Amtrak exercising much of the 70 car option order for the current type are rather long.


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## Anderson (Mar 3, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > One suspicion has been that the Crescent might get one or two sleepers that cut at ATL. NYP-ATL, the train is packed; ATL-NOL, not so much. As to the 25, I believe that there is room to "shake" at least 2, and probably 4, more sleepers in regular use out of that. I don't think Amtrak needs 8 sleepers out of 25 to cover contingencies; 4-6 seems more reasonable.
> ...


I've done some math where a diner could accommodate five sleepers, but it's a risky stretch. In all fairness, I'd say that when you hit four, it's time to look at adding diner capacity.

As far as single-level consists go, here's what I'm thinking we could see in the not-too-distant future:

*Crescent*

Bag-dorm

Sleeper [NOL]

Sleeper [NOL]

Diner [NOL]

Cafe [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL]

Coach [NOL] -Seasonal

Coach [ATL]

Coach [ATL]

Sleeper [ATL]

Sleeper [ATL]

*Lake Shore Limited*

Bag-dorm [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Sleeper [NYP]

Diner [NYP]

Cafe [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP]

Coach [NYP] -Seasonal

Coach [bOS]

Coach [bOS]

Cafe [bOS]

Sleeper [bOS]

Both are likely to make for some _very_ long walks indeed.

*Silver Star*

Bag-Dorm [ORL]

Sleeper [ORL]

Sleeper [ORL]

Diner [ORL]

Cafe [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [ORL]

Coach [FEC]

Coach [FEC]

Cafe [FEC]

Sleeper [FEC]

Sleeper [FEC]

Both sections go to Miami, albeit by different routings; therefore, I've labeled them by whether they go to Orlando or down the FEC en route. My best guess, based on the estimates in the FEC studies, was that Amtrak was likely to put two sleepers on the FEC route. However, the number of coaches may be low (I could see a third coach being added in JAX).

*Silver Meteor*

Bag-Dorm

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Sleeper

Diner

Cafe

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach

Coach -Seasonal

*Cardinal*

Bag-Dorm

Sleeper

Diner-Club

Coach

Coach

Coach

I am predicating this on the success of the diner-club plan on the LSL, but I'm going to guess that it is _highly_ unlikely for the Cardinal to end up with two food service cars to serve four passenger cars, or indeed to serve five if a fifth coach is added. If a second sleeper is added (I believe that the business is there to support it; if I were Amtrak I'd be inclined to push the Cardinal for September/October and add capacity then, since all of the other LD services hit a rut during those months..._particularly_ October).

Thinking things through, I would be inclined to _suggest _(rather than suspect) the following allocation of 75 sleepers to Amtrak:

-Lake Shore Limited: 12 (3 sets: 3 NYP, 1 BOS)

-Silver Meteor: 16 (4 sets: 4 MIA)

-Silver Star: 16 (4 sets: 2 FEC, 2 ORL)

-Crescent: 12 (4 sets: 2 NOL; 2 sets: 2 ATL)

-Pennsylvanian: 6 (3 sets: 2 CHI)

-Cardinal: 3 (3 sets: 1 CHI)

-Variable: 4

-Backup: 6

The "Variable" sleepers would run on the Cardinal in the fall and be assigned to one of the Florida trains (_probably_ the Star, due to the split) at peak season, depending on demand; under this plan, the Star would require two diners, but that seems inevitable given the length of walk that would be needed to reach the diner at that point (and I pity the SCA who gets a wheelchair-bound retiree couple ordering dinner).

The "backup" cars include the 3-4 "protect" cars plus 3-4 that are shopped at any given time (an additional car or two could be pulled from the variable pile in during parts of the "off-season"; it seems possible that in some particularly slow periods, Amtrak might want to seriously consider trimming a consist or two, even just midweek, back by a car for a week or two so they could carry out a few more planned inspections).

Mind you, I'd like to see another 5-15 sleepers added: 2 for the Twilight Shoreliner, 3 for another sleeper on the Cardinal, and a few more as spares or as sleepers that can be moved around as a "surge fleet" (to actually mark off a "winter season" for Florida to at least some extent). Ideally, you'd have about 10 in the "variable" column so that Amtrak could deal with random bumps in demand (and have the SCA hookups set up so that at least in a few cases, like the LSL or the Cardinal, you could do this without increasing staffing at all) and schedule them on a somewhat ad hoc basis.


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## Donctor (Mar 3, 2012)

jis said:


> Adding one sleeper to all existing single level sleeper service trains except 448/449 takes 17 sleeper (Star 4, Meteor 4, Crescent 4, LSL 3, Card 2). Making the Card daily takes 2 more. They should be able to pull all that off with 25 Sleepers. I doubt that 66/67 will get any sleeper. Alternatively they could do the Pennsy - Cap thing by not adding a Sleeper to the LSL or one of the Silvers.


Unless they somehow manage to reduce the Meteor to three sets. It doesn't seem impossible, though as a non-employee, I don't actually know how difficult it would be.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> *Lake Shore Limited*
> 
> Bag-dorm [NYP]
> 
> ...


You added a sleeper but took out a coach. If you had kept the coach, which Amtrak will probably do, then that would be fifteen cars. Suppose Amtrak did four seatings a meal for a 48-seat diner. That's 192 in total, so that could accomodate up to six sleepers. If there's a lot of coaches, Amtrak could still assign fiver sleepers to the LSL.

In the end, it is important to know how much demand there is for NYP/BOS-CHI. Does BOS warrant an additional sleeper? Is the current one sold out a lot?


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## AlanB (Mar 3, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > *Lake Shore Limited*
> ...


You can't do 4 seatings in the diner, 3 is the max unless you want some really odd times. But normal would be 5:00 PM, 6:30 PM, & 8:00 PM. You really can't tighten things more than that. To get to 4 seatings you'd have to start serving dinner at 4:00 or 4:30 PM and even then you're looking at the last seating at around 9 PM. Way too late!


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## AlanB (Mar 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Thinking things through, I would be inclined to _suggest _(rather than suspect) the following allocation of 75 sleepers to Amtrak:
> 
> -Lake Shore Limited: 12 (3 sets: 3 NYP, 1 BOS)
> 
> ...


You don't have enough "backup" sleepers in your plan. Even before the new sleepers come online, Amtrak currently always has 5 sleepers out of service for the various inspections. There are always 2 cars out at any given time for an annual 2 week inspection and 3 cars OOS for the 2 day 92 day inspections. Adding 25 more sleepers to that mix should mean that 4 cars will be OOS for 92 day inspections and 3 will be out for at least 25 weeks of the year for the annual inspections.

That leaves no spares at all. And Amtrak at a minimum must have at least 1 spare in NY and 1 in Miami. And they really should have a spare in Chicago.

And if Amtrak starts on a refurbishment program for the original 50, then that would take 1 car OOS for a month or more.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> *Crescent*
> 
> Bag-dorm
> 
> ...



Meteor is fine, I'll leave that alone, but in regards to the others:

LSL: You left out the baggage car currently run to Boston. This needs to stay. I think since there is a food-service car and a sleeper, it should be a bag-dorm. The limited capacity of the sleeper pax to Boston should not be compromised by keeping the food service and SCA staying in roomettes. (I'm not actually sure where food service personnel stay, but I'm just guessing that they have roomettes. The fourth coach to NYP should be constant, with a fifth being seasonal.

Cardinal: I think that there should probably be two sleepers year-round. A bag-dorm should not be necessary though because the capacity may not always be there.6

Silver Star: I think that there should eventually be 6 sleepers here. Two to Miami on the FEC, and 3 to Miami via Tampa and Orlando, assuming that this train continues to serve Tampa via the backup move. Due to the significantly shorter FEC times versus Tampa backup, most pax on the train via Tampa will not go to Miami, unless they are people like us who want much more train time. I think the Treasure Coast and Miami FEC service should merit three. I put a lounge on the FEC section due to that service being somewhat of a corridor, intra-Florida service. I would like to see the consist like this:

P42DC (via FEC)

P42DC (via Tampa and Orlando)

Bag-dorm (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Sleeper (T&O)

Diner (T&O)

Lounge (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Coach (T&O)

Baggage (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC)

Sleeper (FEC

Diner (FEC)

Coach (FEC

Coach (FEC)

Coach (FEC)

Lounge (tacked on in JAX)

Coach (JAX-MIA)

Coach (JAX-MIA)

Coach (JAX-MIA).

Now this is a very long train, basically double the capacity of the current train NYP-JAX. I realize that I'm giving the train probably more than it deserves, but I am trying to account for all projected growth. I put a standard baggage onto the FEC section, since all of the FEC dining staff could stay in coach on the daylight FEC section, assuming current schedule north of JAX. I felt like the FEC baggage had to be in the middle of the train, making it essentially two separate trains just with the same schedule, because having it at the end and adding coaches in JAX would make switching far too hard. The train would basically be separate, except for crew. This plan may even require two engines JAX-MIA via FEC, so I guess you can add that to what I previously wrote.

Crescent: I find the walk between the ATL coaches and especially sleepers to the diner and lounge to be way too far. I don't have remedy, because all solutions would make it awkward for some pax.

Things not mentioned in comment I'm quoting but I feel like I should say:

I also agree that 4 sleepers need to be given to the Twilight Shoreliner. From what I;ve heard on here, these would definitely be utilized.

The Palmetto should definitely receive a full diner on the run. I'm not sure what the dining CR is, but if they could make it anywhere remotely near break-even, then I think that having it as an amenity would definitely bring more back than it costs.

Again, sorry to everyone if I'm getting too carried away with my projections. I guess I would just like to think, if you implement a train, pax will ride, or something along those lines.


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## SubwayNut (Mar 3, 2012)

Getting a seating for the small dining car is already an issue on LSL. I took it last summer, all six coaches, all sold-out and wanted to have lunch in the diner. I was off on the platform enjoying the air in Syracuse when the steward came through for reservations and walked up to the diner to try and get one but was told it was completely full, they were nervous about having enough food and that I couldn't be added to a waiting/standby list. I was once put on a wait list on the Empire Builder in summer and ended up having dinner at 9pm but still got it and they made the standard "Last call for dinner announcement, if anyone else on the train wishes to have dinner." The LSL did not make a last call for lunch announcement.

I was stuck dealing with a severely depleted lounge car menu for a meager lunch!


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## Donctor (Mar 3, 2012)

448/449 only needs a bag BOS-ALB, but if switching is to be avoided at ALB, run it BOS-CHI and only use one car as a working bag, as is currently done. The BOS section doesn't need a bag/dorm for an LSA and a coach attendant. Aside from the larger crew on the NYP section, you'd probably want to run the bag/dorm to NYP to run it to HIA for maintenance.


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## afigg (Mar 3, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> LSL: You left out the baggage car currently run to Boston. This needs to stay. I think since there is a food-service car and a sleeper, it should be a bag-dorm. The limited capacity of the sleeper pax to Boston should not be compromised by keeping the food service and SCA staying in roomettes. (I'm not actually sure where food service personnel stay, but I'm just guessing that they have roomettes. The fourth coach to NYP should be constant, with a fifth being seasonal.
> 
> Cardinal: I think that there should probably be two sleepers year-round. A bag-dorm should not be necessary though because the capacity may not always be there.6


Amtrak ordered 25 baggage-dorms, not 30 or 35. The NYP section of the LSL gets a baggage-dorm, using a baggage-dorm on the BOS section would likely be a waste of resources. Since the BOS-ALB leg is during the day, maybe the BOS OBS should use the NYP baggage-dorm - if there is room for them.

The Cardinal should get a baggage-dorm to free up space. With the 25 diners ordered, the plans for the Cardinal may be a baggage-dorm, 2 sleepers, and a diner, along with the Amfleet II cafe/lounge and coach cars. A daily Cardinal would boost demand for the train.



johnny.menhennet said:


> Silver Star: I think that there should eventually be 6 sleepers here. Two to Miami on the FEC, and 3 to Miami via Tampa and Orlando, assuming that this train continues to serve Tampa via the backup move. Due to the significantly shorter FEC times versus Tampa backup, most pax on the train via Tampa will not go to Miami, unless they are people like us who want much more train time. I think the Treasure Coast and Miami FEC service should merit three. I put a lounge on the FEC section due to that service being somewhat of a corridor, intra-Florida service. I would like to see the consist like this:
> 
> P42DC (via FEC)
> 
> ...


Amtrak ordered 25 sleepers, not 35 to 40. Any start of service over the FEC is likely 3+ years away, so there is plenty to time to guess what Amtrak will do.

Where are all the coach cars for these seriously extended eastern LD trains being proposed here supposed to come from? Amtrak has only 120 LD coach and 25 cafe/lounge Amfleet II cars available. Amtrak needs to order Viewliner LD coach and cafe/lounge cars, but that is likely years away (unfortunately).


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 3, 2012)

When I said four seatings, I meant something like 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00. Then again, not realistic, so that's why I said that I calculated for three seatings, but another guy said four was possible, per my quote.

Also, to answer the comment about a really long SS: it would probably need three P42DCs just for North of JAX service.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 4, 2012)

My envisions for LSL consist in the future:

P42DC

P42DC

P42DC (variable)

Bag-Dorm (BOS)

Sleeper (BOS)

Sleeper (BOS) (variable)

Dinette (BOS)

Coach (BOS)

Coach (BOS)

Coach (BOS) (variable)

Coach (NYP)

Coach (NYP)

Coach (NYP)

Coach (NYP) (variable)

Lounge (NYP)

Diner (NYP)

Sleeper (NYP)

Sleeper (NYP)

Sleeper (NYP)

Sleeper (NYP) (variable)

Bag-Dorm (NYP)

In a high-demand period, there could be 18 cars west of ALB!  Anybody want to make a computer animation of such a consist?

So, how long was the longest LSL between inauguration in 1975 and retirement of last Heritage in 1996?


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 4, 2012)

Donctor said:


> 448/449 only needs a bag BOS-ALB, but if switching is to be avoided at ALB, run it BOS-CHI and only use one car as a working bag, as is currently done. The BOS section doesn't need a bag/dorm for an LSA and a coach attendant. Aside from the larger crew on the NYP section, you'd probably want to run the bag/dorm to NYP to run it to HIA for maintenance.


Yes, Donctor, you guys are right that Boston doesn't need a bag-dorm, since any crew stationed to the Boston Dinette could just use the normal bag-dorm until Albany.


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## Anderson (Mar 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


When I'm doing the math, I usually assume somewhere between 1.5 and 2 people per roomette and 2 per bedroom (I've run the math with both 2/2 and with 1.5/2, and this gives a _little_ more flexibility).

Mea culpa on dropping an LSL coach.

As to the sleepers...that's actually my bad. I'd assumed it was one in 25 (that's about what I tend to come up with, numbers-wise, in other discussions) that was to be out for inspections, plus the protect cars.

On the FEC: What has just come to mind is the pain that ticketing the Silver Star will be: You'll probably have a _very_ odd booking situation if you add cars...how do you handle the LD coaches? Ticket as a separate coach bucket set (or apply an accommodation charge) or lock to high bucket JAX-MIA? Run as D-only JAX-MIA and force folks to corridor seats? And if you've got some sort of BC on the train...that _would_ be four classes of service (Sleeper, LD coach, corridor BC, corridor coach) on one train. Specific to the Florida service, I would be inclined to expect the Horizons to end up here per some earlier discussions about what they wear well in terms of climate and so forth.*

On the LD coaches: I'm at least mentally pulling a few cars off of Midwest or California service and replacing them with bilevels, or off of Hiawatha service when those Talgos come out. Implicit in this assumption is that a few corridor coaches are going to get redone and added to LD service at some point (even if the move is something as simple as moving 2-2 BC cars to the Adirondack in lieu of the "real" LD coaches).*

*On both of these points, depending on demand patterns and so forth it might be possible to assign a single "short distance" coach to one or more of the LD trains.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 4, 2012)

afigg said:


> Where are all the coach cars for these seriously extended eastern LD trains being proposed here supposed to come from? Amtrak has only 120 LD coach and 25 cafe/lounge Amfleet II cars available. Amtrak needs to order Viewliner LD coach and cafe/lounge cars, but that is likely years away (unfortunately).


For me, this was in an ideal world. Something like this could be reasonable, since it does not go over the total options limit. The coaches would have to be Viewliner 2 coaches, but I doubt that. I've heard people talking on here talking about Florida corridors as good uses for the Horizon cars once Illinois gets its bi-levels, since the demand will soon be there and it never gets too cold. So for any of the tack-on cars, I was thinking that it would be reasonable to use Horizons, so that no new equipment would have to be ordered.


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