# VRE May End Contract with Amtrak



## Viewliner (Mar 10, 2003)

> VRE may end contract with Amtrak
> WASHINGTON, D.C. – Another commuter rail operation may seek a new operator to replace Amtrak. Virginia Railway Express says it may end its contract with Amtrak unless it gets assurances that Amtrak’s financial problems will not interfere with VRE’s operations.
> 
> VRE officials said they would seek a different contractor to operate the commuter trains in June if they do not reach a new agreement. Amtrak provides maintenance, crew members and access to Union Station for VRE under the $13.5-million-a-year contract.
> ...


Story can be found in today's Trains Newswire


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## Amfleet (Mar 10, 2003)

In a way I think ending these contracts with Amtrak will help it more than anything. Amtrak will be able to focus more on its own trains and not have to worry about the commuter agencies as well. Also IF Amtrak were to shutdown, this will leave daily commuters with a little more assurance they will be able to get into and out of cities for work.


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## Viewliner (Mar 10, 2003)

Yes, at least in cities where Amtrak doesn't own the tracks. I think its better for Amtrak as well.


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## Superliner Diner (Mar 10, 2003)

Amfleet said:


> In a way I think ending these contracts with Amtrak will help it more than anything. Amtrak will be able to focus more on its own trains and not have to worry about the commuter agencies as well. Also IF Amtrak were to shutdown, this will leave daily commuters with a little more assurance they will be able to get into and out of cities for work.


Yes, but in a sense, it was the very existance of those contracts that might have been a factor in saving Amtrak from the brink last summer --- the fact that millions of commuters would have been affected by the potential shutdown of Amtrak.


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## AlanB (Mar 10, 2003)

Viewliner said:


> Yes, at least in cities where Amtrak doesn't own the tracks. I think its better for Amtrak as well.


Like in the case of VRE, even if they replace Amtrak for operations they could only reach L'Enfant Plaza before needing to turn around. Since Amtrak owns Union Station, they'd be locked out.

Also locked out would be MARC, which also uses Union Station. Then further north, you'd loose part of Septa operations in Philly, but not all. In NJ you'd completely loose the corridor line, plus Raritan and the Coastline would not be able to reach either Newark's Penn Station nor NY's Penn Station. The M & E and Boonton lines would be unaffected, except for Midtown direct service, which would have to divert to Hoboken. The Bergen, Pascack Valley, and Main lines would be unaffected.

The LIRR would be locked out of Penn and would have to terminate in Queens. This is perhaps the biggest problem of any of the commuter systems, as the LIRR moves 600,000 people each day in and out of Penn Station. The subway can't handle that load, they are already packed during rush hour.

Metro North would have no problems. Boston's T would be unaffected. Moving west, Chicago would have problems since Union Station would be shutdown. However there are two or three other terminals in Chicago, so there would still be some commuter trains running. Oregon and Washington would loose Cascade service, which is a semi-commuter service.

California would of course be an unmitigated disaster, as they would loose Los Angels Union Station. Plus all the Surfliners, the Capitols, and the San Joaquins all of which cater to commuters. Then there are commuter services that Amtrak operates for the state of California.


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## tp49 (Mar 10, 2003)

> California would of course be an unmitigated disaster, as they would loose Los Angels Union Station. Plus all the Surfliners, the Capitols, and the San Joaquins all of which cater to commuters. Then there are commuter services that Amtrak operates for the state of California.


I don't necessariy agree with this as CalTrans not Amtrak owns the equipment used for the Surfliners, Capitols and San Joaquin's. In the case of the Capitols BART as a mamber of the CCJPA is in charge of administration of the route and Amtrak only deals with operating the trains. Thus, all that would need to happen is either for CalTrans to take on operating the services themselves or contracting out to a different vendor for those services. I believe the same could also be said for CalTrain as well.


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## AlanB (Mar 10, 2003)

tp49 said:


> I don't necessariy agree with this as CalTrans not Amtrak owns the equipment used for the Surfliners, Capitols and San Joaquin's. In the case of the Capitols BART as a mamber of the CCJPA is in charge of administration of the route and Amtrak only deals with operating the trains. Thus, all that would need to happen is either for CalTrans to take on operating the services themselves or contracting out to a different vendor for those services. I believe the same could also be said for CalTrain as well.


Does California really own all of the equipment? I thought that Amtrak owned some of it, while California paid for the rest.

Nonetheless, you did overlook a couple of important things. One if there is no Amtrak, then there is no ticketing system in place for the Surfliners, Capitols, and San Joaquin's. All tickets for those trains are sold thru Amtrak computers or via conductors. This would mean that the conductors would be forced to sell each and every ticket on board the train.

Next without any plans or preparation, it could take weeks to get replacement crews and such in place.

Finally I believe that in many if not all cases Amtrak, and not the state of California, holds the agreements for right of passage on the freight tracks. So without Amtrak, California would have a bunch of trains that they can't run anywhere without first renegotiating those contracts. California will pay dearly for those new contracts.


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## gswager (Mar 10, 2003)

Amtrak doesn't own LA Union Station. It is owned by private properties company.


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## battalion51 (Mar 11, 2003)

But in the case of other stations like Penn, Wasington Union, and Chicago Union, Amtrak does own the station. If a private company (like the losers over at Herzog) take over they would have to find a new station, or pay dearly to use Amtrak's. Just as Amtrak pays to use a sation like Delray (Tri-Rail owned), VRE or whatever the service mat be, they will pay to use Amtrak's station, and dearly as well.



> Does California really own all of the equipment? I thought that Amtrak owned some of it, while California paid for the rest.


 Nope the state owns the equipment. This is why F59PHI's are used instead of the Amtrak standard P-42. While other locomotives may pinch hit ocassionally, the state owns the equipment. As for Cascades service, I believe Amtrak owns two sets, WSDOT two, and ODOT rents one.


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## AlanB (Mar 11, 2003)

battalion51 said:


> But in the case of other stations like Penn, Wasington Union, and Chicago Union, Amtrak does own the station. If a private company (like the losers over at Herzog) take over they would have to find a new station, or pay dearly to use Amtrak's.


If Amtrak goes under, there won't be anyone to pay. Therefore commuter RR's would still be locked out, at least for a period of time until contingency plans could be set up. This would be an intolerable situation for many places. Certainly here in NY it would be a nightmare.

Drop 600,000 people per day from the LIRR in Queens and Brooklyn, and the subways will be a nightmare. Plus I'm guessing that at least 100,000 people could be affected on NJT, and many of them would have no alternative but to drive. Sadly that's not a very good alternative.



battalion51 said:


> > Does California really own all of the equipment? I thought that Amtrak owned some of it, while California paid for the rest.
> 
> 
> Nope the state owns the equipment. This is why F59PHI's are used instead of the Amtrak standard P-42. While other locomotives may pinch hit ocassionally, the state owns the equipment.


I know that the state owns the engines, but I'm not so sure about the coaches. Yes the state did pay for a lot of them, but I don't think that all the coaches belong to the state. I think that some of the single level cars do belong to Amtrak, plus I know that Amtrak Superliner equipment often pinch hits for the Surfliners. So that would be out the window if Amtrak goes under.


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