# Airline Meals - Why Not?



## snvboy (Dec 9, 2015)

Why not use airline style meal service on the train?

I have had some pretty incredible meals in the air, and they have been pretty consistently decent. I've had some inedible meals on the train lately, and other than the steak they have been consistently inconsistent.

In the context of the New Menu discussion ( http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66137-new-dining-car-menus-nov-4/) I've been thinking about this a bunch. As a fanboy, I think I've "let" Amtrak get away with some pretty shoddy meals. This fall I took a trip on the CZ/CS/EB with my best friend from high school. He was very, very disappointed by the meals. And I think the new menu is even worse.

How It Could Work:

Diner is restocked as cities with major airports. All meals come from the same central kitchen servicing the airlines. Meals are loaded into carts, carts are delivered to Amtrak station. Carts are held in a walk-in refrigerator unit (could be a 20' cargo reefer at the end of the platform). Meals are thawed & reheated on the train the same as on the airline.

Let's face it - just about EVERYTHING on the dining car menu, even on trains with a 'real' chef, are just being reheated. The breakfast potatoes come from a box. The pancakes and french toast come from a box. I'm pretty sure the omelets come from a box. The vegetables come from a can or a bag.

What Is Lost:


any "fresh" griddle item: steaks & burgers. As best as I can tell and taste, these are the ONLY items on the dining car menu that ever get on a grill, and the ONLY items that even the least amount of culinary skill are put into on the train.
large menu selection, but.... instead of having 1 menu with 3-4 entree choices per meal, you would have a different menu each day with 2-3 entree choices per meal.

What Is Gained:


no need for "skilled" chef on the train. One less headcount also means another sleeper room available for revenue.
variety! 
specialty meals - vegan, kosher, halal, etc. if pre-ordered.
fresher food - i get fresh fruit/melon cups all the time on the airline. I've never seen such a thing on Amtrak.
Consistency in food - because the meals are always reheated, the outcome is much more consistent. I'm REALLY thinking about the vegetables and breakfast potatoes, which currently depending on the time of your seating and the whims of the 'chef' are either pretty decent or downright disgusting.
Consistency in options - no haggling over salads. It's either part of the meal or it isn't.
Consistency in presentation - again, the airlines do a very good job an consistently plating their meals. On real china. Without a chef.
At least one table in the diner - it seems that EVERY train I'm on has at least one booth in the diner occupied with forks, knives, napkins, and an bunch of other things to set the table. I've never seen a whole seat on the airplane taken up with all this junk.
Faster service / more table turnover. If the airline can heat and serve 20 people (5 Amtrak tables) in first class in an hour, with a tiny galley on a 737, i'm guessing the train can have capacity for a lot more people in the diner. Expanded dining hours could be an option. 
IF (big IF) the meals can be reheated faster than the diners can consume them, it opens up a revenue opportunity for "at seat" or takeaway service to sell more meals without needing more tables. 
Much more granular capacity planning - when the breakfast potatoes come in a 10# box, if you have one person in the diner for breakfast you're tossing a LOT of product.
Happier Employees. Do you think it's drudgery to eat the same menu for 4 days traveling coast to coast on Amtrak? Ever notice that the on-board employees are eating the SAME food as you are in the diner? 

I'm sure there are other plusses and minus, so please feel free to contribute.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Dec 9, 2015)

Quote:

"I have had some pretty incredible meals in the air"

Where and on which airline do you fly? At my income, I fly coach, and the last time I flew I got one _very small_ packet of peanuts.


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## Eric308 (Dec 9, 2015)

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> Quote:
> 
> "I have had some pretty incredible meals in the air"
> 
> Where and on which airline do you fly? At my income, I fly coach, and the last time I flew I got one _very small_ packet of peanuts.


Wow, crabby....you got shortchanged. I got a packet of pretzels, and savored all ELEVEN of them!


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## snvboy (Dec 9, 2015)

To say "I fly coach, and the last time I flew I got one _very small_ packet of peanuts." in the context of a discussion about food in the dining car is to compare apples and oranges. In terms of F&B, the peanuts and soda you get on the airline are a lot more than the NOTHING you get in coach on Amtrak.

​My point is that if the airlines can pull off good meals, usually with a choice of entree, usually with special needs being accommodated, in a roomette sized galley, without a "chef"... why not do the same on Amtrak?


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## jis (Dec 9, 2015)

Meals are included in the fare only in first class or sleeper on trains and in domestic first class on planes in the US these days. I am sure the OP is talking about food served in first class.

On international flights food is included in economy too which is passable and the food in business or first class is consistently better and more predictable in quality than in Amtrak Diners IMHO. And I am not even talking of top tier airlines like Singapore. I am talking about US carriers like United or Delta.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 9, 2015)

Shorter domestic flights these days only serve water or sometimes orange/apple juice and nothing else in coach. Longer flights often come with peanuts or pretzels and a full drink service. I would rarely purchase whatever the free snack is but I've often ordered a tapas snack pack or other box lunch when time was a bit too short or a connection was a bit too tight. Intercontinental coach flights usually come with several rounds of drinks, multiple meals, and free beer or wine on most carriers. Foreign airlines often include free cocktails as well.

That's not to say the meals are any good, but thankfully a growing number of airports now include at least a few fresh and tasty options among their various restaurants and shops. Even historically dumpy airports like IAH and LHR sell food that blows away anything on today's Amtrak. Personally I think free-at-seat snacks on Amtrak is probably a non-starter and wouldn't be any good anyhow. However, a free soft drink with buy-at-seat snacks and beer/wine/cocktails might end up making the ride more enjoyable while also helping Amtrak's bottom line. Or at least I'd be open to testing the idea and seeing how it goes.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 9, 2015)

I've been lucky enough to fly international business and fly "transcontinental" first class in a three-class flight, which is touted as equivalent to international first. While the meals were good considering how they were prepared, and better than I expected, and were certainly not the mystery entrees that were that hallmark of the old coach meals, not one of them was as good as a mediocre dining car meal. The only dining car meal they beat was the emergency beef stew and rice.


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## jis (Dec 9, 2015)

The domestic first class service transcontinental "ps" service or otherwise, comes nowhere near the international first class service no matter what the marketers might insist. Been there, done that.

As for international business class, it varies a lot by airline. But the specific comparison I have is between United Business-First and Amtrak Dining car fare. Amtrak used to be at par or a bit better, but now the 5 course meal in BF is generally better and more consistently so than Amtrak Diner. AFAIK Amtrak has never really served a five course meal in the Diner. International First Class has always been vastly better than Amtrak, at least as far back as 1989, when I flew First Class for the first time to Tokyo and then on to Hongkong on an award ticket. I will get some first hand experience on Luftahnsa in their A380 and B747-8 business class within a month or so, and will be happy to report back.


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## BCL (Dec 9, 2015)

Maybe not the meals, which are still reheated, but when I flew first class international there was caviar and Dom Perignon. Those would have been [correction] hard to screw up.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 9, 2015)

zephyr17 said:


> I've been lucky enough to fly international business and fly "transcontinental" first class in a three-class flight, which is touted as equivalent to international first. While the meals were good considering how they were prepared, and better than I expected, and were certainly not the mystery entrees that were that hallmark of the old coach meals, not one of them was as good as a mediocre dining car meal. The only dining car meal they beat was the emergency beef stew and rice.


Can you explain what precisely you believe is better about Amtrak dining car food compared to international first class airline food? Because in my experience international first class food vastly exceeds the taste, quality, selection, and preparation of today's Amtrak meals.



BCL said:


> Maybe not the meals, which are still reheated, but when I flew first class international there was caviar and Dom Perignon. Those would have been had to screw up.


Some airlines still serve caviar (I'd be happy to give you mine) along with unlimited Dom or Krug on premium routes, but it's becoming rarer over time.


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## seat38a (Dec 9, 2015)

Well they already do an Airline Meal type dining on the Acela. From what I have been reading, those have gone down hills as well.


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## BCL (Dec 9, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe not the meals, which are still reheated, but when I flew first class international there was caviar and Dom Perignon. Those would have been had to screw up.
> ...


Those were the two options and I actually picked the NV Krug. It came in a split though.

Once I flew business class for a short haul flight, and all they had was Moët. However, I also got to use the lounge, which had lots of premium snacks and alcohol. Kind of put my visit to the United Club to shame.


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## jis (Dec 9, 2015)

United used to serve Beluga Caviar and Dom soon after boarding and before takeoff on their JFK - Tokyo flight in First Class. I don't think they do any such anymore. Indeed the EWR - NRT flight does not even have first class anymore! But then again back then there were no lie flat pods in first class either.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 9, 2015)

BCL said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
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> > BCL said:
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Although I've enjoyed both I prefer Krug over Dom as well. Dom Perignon remains a great gift due to the near universal name recognition, but Dom's inexplicable 2003 release contradicted most of their marketing claims about vintages being based on quality of the harvest rather than sourcing contracts, and put their reputation behind that of top non-vintage options.



jis said:


> United used to serve Beluga Caviar and Dom soon after boarding and before takeoff on their JFK - Tokyo flight in First Class. I don't think they do any such anymore. Indeed the EWR - NRT flight does not even have first class anymore! But then again back then there were no lie flat pods in first class either.


What year was that? Did they serve it during the flight or only while they were on the ground?


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Dec 9, 2015)

snvboy said:


> To say "I fly coach, and the last time I flew I got one _very small_ packet of peanuts." in the context of a discussion about food in the dining car is to compare apples and oranges. In terms of F&B, the peanuts and soda you get on the airline are a lot more than the NOTHING you get in coach on Amtrak.


No. I was asking *where* you fly, and on *what* airline, to receive excellent meals ... compared to the food I've received.

I was not referencing food in the dining car.

Perhaps I was unclear in my comment. Mea culpa. :hi: ^_^ :hi:


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## BCL (Dec 9, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> BCL said:
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> > Devil's Advocate said:
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I remember a friend of the family used to work for an airline and at disposal time the employees had the choice of all sorts of goodies from First and Business Class. My parents used to regularly get Dom Perignon in exchange for favors, and once even got Pol Roger Churchill, which is kind of obscure I suppose. However, I remember hearing about one airline employee who was ostensibly fired for taking milk home that was supposed to be disposed (even though it wasn't past its sell by date).


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## Eric308 (Dec 9, 2015)

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> snvboy said:
> 
> 
> > To say "I fly coach, and the last time I flew I got one _very small_ packet of peanuts." in the context of a discussion about food in the dining car is to compare apples and oranges. In terms of F&B, the peanuts and soda you get on the airline are a lot more than the NOTHING you get in coach on Amtrak.
> ...


No, crabby. You were perfectly clear and no mea culpa required.


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## neroden (Dec 10, 2015)

For reference, Amtrak's eggs for the scrambled eggs and the omelette are actual eggs, no additives; I've checked on this and managed to get information. There's your additional griddle item, on top of the steaks and burgers. I think the sausage also goes on the griddle. Eggs and sausage are significantly simpler to cook than steak, of course.


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## snvboy (Dec 10, 2015)

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> snvboy said:
> 
> 
> > To say "I fly coach, and the last time I flew I got one _very small_ packet of peanuts." in the context of a discussion about food in the dining car is to compare apples and oranges. In terms of F&B, the peanuts and soda you get on the airline are a lot more than the NOTHING you get in coach on Amtrak.
> ...


You were quite clear and quite off topic. The discussion is using airline logistics and methods to improve dining on Amtrak. Which is referencing food in the dining car. Yes, first class on the airlines gets better food than coach. They paid for it. The 'first class' Amtrak product I use the most is roomettes on LD trains. I'm certainly paying for the meals in the cost of that ticket - a ticket which often approaches or exceeds the price of the same route in first class on the airlines.

I find it very interesting that thus far all the comments have been around "is airline food worth eating", and not "could this be done" and would the pros/cons I identified actually work out that way.

Yes, airline food can range from strange to amazing. I've never had amazing on Amtrak. And it seems to keep getting worse as everything is cut, cut, cut. Stop cutting the quality, start evaluating the processes. In my mind, the airlines seem to have this process pretty well figured out.


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## Eric308 (Dec 10, 2015)

snvboy said:


> crabby_appleton1950 said:
> 
> 
> > snvboy said:
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I think crabby was just curious as to what airlines provide incredible meals. I was curious as well. Also, I'm not so sure about your ticket price comparison between Amtrak and first class on the airlines. I'm traveling from Chicago to Portland soon with a booked roomette for just over $400. First class airline (Delta) in the same time period is over $800.


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## Ryan (Dec 10, 2015)

I'm curious as well.

And I've had a top-5 steak on one of the Silvers before, so a great (perhaps falling short of amazing) meal is possible in the dining car. And railroads like Via prove that non-airline style meals can be amazing from a dining car. It's all in what the company wants to offer.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 10, 2015)

I had to really laugh hard yesterday when _*United*_ announced the return of "free" low grade snacks in Coach and the media jumped on it like they had just cut fares by 90%. Don't you know William A. Patterson is going 'round and 'round somewhere in his grave!


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 10, 2015)

neroden said:


> For reference, Amtrak's eggs for the scrambled eggs and the omelette are actual eggs, no additives; I've checked on this and managed to get information. There's your additional griddle item, on top of the steaks and burgers. I think the sausage also goes on the griddle. Eggs and sausage are significantly simpler to cook than steak, of course.


Having experienced both actual eggs and liquid milk carton egg product on Amtrak Ive come to the conclusion that they probably stock both and then use the milk carton eggs as a backup if they run out or something unfortunate happens to the actual eggs. Once you know what to look for its easy to spot the differences.



Eric308 said:


> I think crabby was just curious as to what airlines provide incredible meals. I was curious as well. Also, I'm not so sure about your ticket price comparison between Amtrak and first class on the airlines. I'm traveling from Chicago to Portland soon with a booked roomette for just over $400. First class airline (Delta) in the same time period is over $800.


In my experience Amtrak sleeping compartments are at least as much if not more expensive than domestic first class flights when comparing identical dates. One thing Ive noticed here on AU is that people who claim otherwise sometimes stack the deck by comparing an early Amtrak purchase with a last minute airline purchase, or by cherry picking dates and locations or by splitting a cheaper round trip airline ticket into multiple one way tickets. Personally I wish Amtrak was cheaper but in my experience thats rarely the case.



Ryan said:


> I've had a top-5 steak on one of the Silvers before, so a great (perhaps falling short of amazing) meal is possible in the dining car. And railroads like Via prove that non-airline style meals can be amazing from a dining car. It's all in what the company wants to offer.


Ive noticed that as the menu has shrunk over and over again most of the pro-AmChow supporters have been forced circle the wagons around a tiny little steak island surrounded by a sea of precooked frozen trash.



OlympianHiawatha said:


> I had to really laugh hard yesterday when _*United*_ announced the return of "free" low grade snacks in Coach and the media jumped on it like they had just cut fares by 90%. Don't you know William A. Patterson is going 'round and 'round somewhere in his grave!


Just imagine if it was Amtrak announcing free low grade snacks instead of United. Maybe Amtrak would have finally received some widespread positive press for a change. Too bad Boardman had already promised to slash and burn the food and beverage service into perpetual obscurity at the behest of bean counters and fellow party members.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Dec 10, 2015)

Eric308 said:


> I think crabby was just curious as to what airlines provide incredible meals.


Exactly.






And, as I was responding to snvboy's comment*:*

*"*_I have had some pretty incredible meals in the air_*"*

I wasn't _'off topic_'.

I shall say no more.


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## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > For reference, Amtrak's eggs for the scrambled eggs and the omelette are actual eggs, no additives; I've checked on this and managed to get information. There's your additional griddle item, on top of the steaks and burgers. I think the sausage also goes on the griddle. Eggs and sausage are significantly simpler to cook than steak, of course.
> ...


I worked a contract job at a large workplace with multiple buildings and multiple cafeterias. And for clarification, it was not a place where the meals were free. I saw the pre-scrambled eggs coming out of carton and it wasn't bad. Personally I think it was probably designed as a time saver, and the "liquid eggs" were probably pasteurized.

While my experiences with Amtrak LD dining cars is limited, I have had experiences with the eggs. They seemed real enough to me, although it depended on who was making it. I thought it was a pretty good bargain when beverages were included in the price (for coach passengers). For $3.50 my kid's meal came with beverages, including milk and juice. I even got offered a cup of coffee to go as I left. Of course while I thought it was a good deal, it was probably a missing revenue stream for Amtrak.

My last breakfast was on the CS while we were stopped in Sacramento. All four at the table ordered the same thing - the scrambled egg breakfast and coffee. I guess it was the cheapest thing on the menu.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 10, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > I've been lucky enough to fly international business and fly "transcontinental" first class in a three-class flight, which is touted as equivalent to international first. While the meals were good considering how they were prepared, and better than I expected, and were certainly not the mystery entrees that were that hallmark of the old coach meals, not one of them was as good as a mediocre dining car meal. The only dining car meal they beat was the emergency beef stew and rice.
> ...


Number one, it is a matter of taste. While the business class airline meals were pretty good, my experience you could very much tell that they were not freshly prepared. Neither one did great with the veggies, but the meat entrees have been consistenly better on Amtrak. As to selection, it was somewhat greater than Amtrak's.

Maybe it was the airline, my miles were all on American and all the flights international business (not first) class flights were on American, as was the JFK-LAX first class on a three-class transcon flight just this past March.

In any case, the American did a good job, but it wasn't particularly impressive. I did the upgrades for the seats, not the food.

The meal while traveling experience that WAS impressive was VIA's Canadian. Beat both American and Amtrak by miles. And maybe my experience on American's JFK-LAX transcon was colored by that, as that was the return leg when the Canadian had been the outbound. I did go out of the way to experience their transcon First, as I routed JFK-LAX-SEA to do it, instead of just going JFK-SEA in regular domestic First. I wanted to be impressed.


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## jis (Dec 10, 2015)

The only train on which VIA produces extraordinary dining fare in Diners is on the Canadian, which is operated primarily as a tourist operation which also incidentally fulfills the role of providing some essential transportation. If an operation is willing to eat the kind of losses that it eats you can do all sorts of things. Indian Railways also operates the various Tourist operations which cost an extraordinary amount and provide food service that far surpasses anything that VIA provides and also provides no transportation service at all. So is it possible to serve incredible meals on trains? Of course! Is it practical as a matter of day to day transportation service? I am not sure. What is necessary is to provided good quality food with some variety and that is where Amtrak is progressively failing and where the airlines are starting to reverse the long downhill trend. However on international first class and business class they never sank to a level below where Amtrak finds itself today. They did sink lower in domestic FC, but have now started recovering quite smartly.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 10, 2015)

I can't remember back to the menu say in 2000 does anyone have the old menus posted anywhere similar to the timetable museum. That way I can better compare the offerings. I'm all for beefing up the dining car. Pardon my pun


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## zephyr17 (Dec 10, 2015)

In 2000 the menus at least varied by route and direction, I recall at least that much.


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## Anderson (Dec 10, 2015)

I'll say that I've been pleased with the meals on Virgin America. I wouldn't take them over my steak in the diner, but (quirky menu notwithstanding) they'd be a step up from the cafe and definitely a passable option on a 12-16 hour train ride.

Basically, I suspect that the Western LD trains _have_ to have a diner because of the time involved in the longer trips (CHI-LAX, SEA-LAX, etc.); the eastern trains are a mixed bag (Florida probably needs a diner on at least one train). With that being said, allowing the purchase of a meal like this on some of the longer Regional/day train runs would definitely be a boon (8 hours on the present Amcafe selection? Not fun).


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## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

Anderson said:


> I'll say that I've been pleased with the meals on Virgin America. I wouldn't take them over my steak in the diner, but (quirky menu notwithstanding) they'd be a step up from the cafe and definitely a passable option on a 12-16 hour train ride.
> 
> Basically, I suspect that the Western LD trains _have_ to have a diner because of the time involved in the longer trips (CHI-LAX, SEA-LAX, etc.); the eastern trains are a mixed bag (Florida probably needs a diner on at least one train). With that being said, allowing the purchase of a meal like this on some of the longer Regional/day train runs would definitely be a boon (8 hours on the present Amcafe selection? Not fun).


Not necessarily. I could imagine multiple cafe cars could suffice to keep people fed - especially if there was more storage capacity. However - I had the dining car Angus burger for lunch and the cafe car version for dinner and it was no contest which was the better one.

I would have liked fries though, although I realize that's not happening on a train.


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## Eric308 (Dec 10, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > For reference, Amtrak's eggs for the scrambled eggs and the omelette are actual eggs, no additives; I've checked on this and managed to get information. There's your additional griddle item, on top of the steaks and burgers. I think the sausage also goes on the griddle. Eggs and sausage are significantly simpler to cook than steak, of course.
> ...


Devils' Advocate...in my case I booked the roomette last Sunday, 12/5 and I'm leaving on 12/12. Total $425...Delta First Class (on 12/5) was almost $800. So, in my case I used identical dates. However, your point is valid in other booking scenarios.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 10, 2015)

I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific _opinion_ is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.


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## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

zephyr17 said:


> I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific _opinion_ is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.


When I've flown they typically had an offer for $50 to upgrade to first class from whatever economy ticket I had. It wasn't bad considering it came with two pieces of checked in luggage ($25 each), a bigger seat, and meals/snacks/alcohol.


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## Eric308 (Dec 10, 2015)

BCL said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific _opinion_ is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.
> ...


Is that with all the airlines you've flown with? I'd jump all over that every time. That's even less than the upgrade to "Delta Comfort" from economy. The "comfort" is about 2 extra inches of legroom and maybe an inch wider seat? Not even sure of that. You do get gratis alcohol.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 10, 2015)

Eric308 said:


> BCL said:
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> > zephyr17 said:
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Never saw a $50 upgrade to first or business on Air Asia, Air Canada, America West, American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Cebu Pacific, Chautauqua Airlines, Colgan Air, Continental Airlines, Delta Airlines, Dragonair, EasyJet, ExpressJet, Frontier Airlines, Jalways, Japan Airlines, Deutsche Lufthansa, Mesa Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Philippine Airlines, Republic Airlines, Shuttle America, Singapore Airlines, SkyWest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Ted, Thai Air Asia, Thai Airways, United Airlines, or US Airways.

Must be exclusive to Washington Alaska Airlines, but I'd probably take it in a heartbeat, mainly for the legroom but also to stick it to the DYKWIA non-revs.


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## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

Eric308 said:


> BCL said:
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Alaska Airlines was mentioned, and that optional upgrade was offered at online checkin time by them. Of course there isn't always availability. They would prefer to sell them at a higher premium before trying to extract $50. The price of the upgrade depends on the length of the flight - from $50 to $200. I was going Oakland to Seattle, which is listed as 683 miles, which is well under their 1,250 mile max for a $50 uncharge to first class.

https://www.alaskaair.com/content/mileage-plan/earn-use-miles/first-class-upgrades.aspx



Devil's Advocate said:


> Never saw a $50 upgrade to first or business on Air Asia, Air Canada, America West, American Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Cebu Pacific, Chautauqua Airlines, Colgan Air, Continental Airlines, Delta Airlines, Dragonair, EasyJet, ExpressJet, Frontier Airlines, Jalways, Japan Airlines, Deutsche Lufthansa, Mesa Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Philippine Airlines, Republic Airlines, Shuttle America, Singapore Airlines, SkyWest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Ted, Thai Air Asia, Thai Airways, United Airlines, or US Airways.
> 
> Must be exclusive to Washington Alaska Airlines, but I'd probably take it in a heartbeat, mainly for the legroom but also to stick it to the DYKWIA non-revs.



Apparently Delta used to offer first class upgrades at checkin time. Other airlines might have chosen passengers randomly for an offer to upgrade. This article was from 2005:

_http://www.smartertravel.com/travel-advice/better-seat-Upgrade-from.html?id=13366_

_When flying a major U.S. carrier, your best chance of getting a cheap upgrade is by flying Delta. On the day of departure, Delta offers standby upgrades that allow passengers to upgrade at the departure gate for as little as $50 if your flight has extra room in the forward cabin. Upgrades are available to both members and non-members of Delta's SkyMiles frequent flyer program, and are only offered on domestic and Caribbean routes. (Upgrades are not available on fares in the L, T, and U range, however, which are the most deeply discounted.)_


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## jebr (Dec 10, 2015)

Sun Country does something similar, though the prices range from $89 to $189.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 10, 2015)

BCL said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > I would never make the case that sleepers on Amtrak are cheaper than domestic First, at least not any kind of consistent basis. My very unscientific _opinion_ is they are in the same general ballpark. Depending on deals, advance purchase, etc, etc one could be higher than the other in one case, the opposite in another. One thing I will say pretty definitely, because I've done both, Alaska Airlines' advance purchase/non-refundable First class fare from Seattle to Southern California airports is is cheaper than a roomette (for one) even at low bucket.
> ...


I've used it, too. But was I was talking about was being ticketed into First class from the start on a restricted, non-refunable fare, not an upgrade at check-in. Alaska is the only airline that I've noticed that they offer discounted, advance purchase, First class fares.

Availability of those $50 upgrades seems to have gotten few and far between.


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## jis (Dec 10, 2015)

United offers upgrade at checkin - both cash as well as cash and points sometimes. I have used them many times on international flights. Domestic more often than not I just get comp upgrades.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 10, 2015)

jis said:


> United offers upgrade at checkin - both cash as well as cash and points sometimes. I have used them many times on international flights. Domestic more often than not I just get comp upgrades.


Oddly enough many United Airlines airport counters no longer take _actual_ cash regardless of the currency. I've seen many airlines offer last minute purchasable upgrades to Premium Economy, Business, and even First Class, including on United Airlines. What I've never once seen is an upgrade to First or Business Class for *fifty dollars*. I'm not saying it's never happened; I'm just saying I've never seen such a thing.


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## jis (Dec 10, 2015)

Yeah I have never seen $50 upgrade. And true they only take cards now for money. No cash anywhere AFAIK. You can get some pretty good points only upgrades too if you strike lucky. Careful selection of flights at unpopular times of course increases the chances of all kinds of upgrade whether it be comp, points, money or money and points.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 10, 2015)

The last time I saw an upgrade to First for $50 was on _*Reno Air*_, where you could actually upgrade per segment for $25. But, of course, that was many years ago.


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## jis (Dec 10, 2015)

Actually I have not been tracking what United asks for domestic upgrades in money. I do those mostly on international and on those I don't believe there is anything below $500 and is usually more in the vicinity of a thousand or more.


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## BCL (Dec 10, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> The last time I saw an upgrade to First for $50 was on _*Reno Air*_, where you could actually upgrade per segment for $25. But, of course, that was many years ago.


Ah Reno Air. I remember flying them to Las Vegas because Southwest was too expensive for my employer. Then there was the kicker that my return flight to San Jose was through Reno. I think I took a quick exit and got back on the plane, and there were slots at the terminal, although nothing like in Vegas.

I guess the closest I've come to that was on Hawaiian Airlines inter island on Boeing 717s with the 2+3 layout.


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## cirdan (Dec 11, 2015)

When I'm flying on my own dollar I'm always in economy, but I have flown Business on my employer's dollar.

The food there is quite Ok, although mileages may vary by airline or even by the dedication of the cabin crew.

On an airline you need a certain number of crew anyway, especially for safety reaons. Normally they are busy during certain times of the flight but otherwise have little to do. This makes it easy to give them additional tasks during lull times and thus airline catering can be done on the cheap because the personell costs attached are being piggypacked by another cost center.

On a train you would still need dedicated staff for the catering and the cost would thus be higher and maybe the same as they are at present.


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## Anderson (Dec 12, 2015)

Good point on the fact that, for example, FAs have to be there regardless of whether there's OBS. The closest _conceptual _example would be an Assistant Conductor manning the cafe. For example, on VX I believe that you wind up with at most a single "extra" FA for on-board services vis-a-vis what you'd get if there were no OBS.


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## BCL (Dec 12, 2015)

Or it could be like USAF VIP aircraft flight attendants. Apparently they have security protocol where the food must be prepared by the on-board staff. Also, all onboard staff require a clearance level to serve the President, even if it's on a corporate style jet, which could serve as Air Force One if needed.

http://archive.airforcetimes.com/article/20120209/NEWS/202090309/Air-Force-preps-flight-attendants-VIP-trips


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## jis (Dec 12, 2015)

The FAA requirement is one cabin crew per 50 passengers on planes with more than 100 seats (FARS Part 121 Section 391) So typically a 737 requires 4 cabin crew to satisfy FAA and depending on the load and how much OBS needs to be provided they carry anywhere between 4 and 6, naturally with the heavy OBS case carrying 5 or 6 or 25% to 50% more than required by FAA. This is on short haul.

On wide body intercontinentals heavy with first and business class it gets more interesting. A 777 per FAA typically requires 6, but that many or more may be required just to serve the first and business class sections. Like trains OBS costs are higher on longer flights, but the fares also can be spectacularly higher to support such.

For ULH flights usually upto two complete sets of crew are carried on board with one crew working a shift while the other rests.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 12, 2015)

Which raises the question: Why can Airline Crews " rest" on LH Flights and Amtrak Crews can't?

I don't mean why is it a rule, I mean why does this not compute? Don't most people sleep much better in a Train Sleeper than on a plane?


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## BCL (Dec 12, 2015)

Bob Dylan said:


> Which raises the question: Why can Airline Crews " rest" on LH Flights and Amtrak Crews can't?
> 
> I don't mean why is it a rule, I mean why does this not compute? Don't most people sleep much better in a Train Sleeper than on a plane?


I don't believe they're required to rest. It's an 8 hour maximum flight duty per 24 hours (or something like that).

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/135.267


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## jis (Dec 12, 2015)

FAA dictates active work hour restrictions for all onboard crew, not just the cockpit crew, unlike FRA which does not have anything to say about duty hours for OBS crew.

I am not sure exactly how things are handled on flights longer than 16 hours etc. One crew appears to rest for a while and then relieve the other crew for the cruise and then the first crew comes back after some number of hours, as it seems.


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## Palmetto (Dec 13, 2015)

On a Chicago-Milan Alitalia flight several years ago I saw the cockpit crew actually go to bed. They had berths in the middle of the plane for them to sleep.


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## jis (Dec 13, 2015)

I know the intercontinental 777s have 4 or 6 or some such number of sleeping berths for the crew tucked away above the ceiling of the cabin in the tail section. At one point Boeing even proposed providing such for passengers along the rest of the fuselage, but that went nowhere.


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## BCL (Dec 13, 2015)

jis said:


> I know the intercontinental 777s have 4 or 6 or some such number of sleeping berths for the crew tucked away above the ceiling of the cabin in the tail section. At one point Boeing even proposed providing such for passengers along the rest of the fuselage, but that went nowhere.


The pilots get their own sleeping/sitting quarters at the front of a 787. The rest of the flight crew has one in the back.

I saw a cutout of an A350, and there's a latch in the cockpit that leads down to the pilots' sleeping quarters. It was apparently relocated in newer versions to above the cabin.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 13, 2015)

BCL said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I know the intercontinental 777s have 4 or 6 or some such number of sleeping berths for the crew tucked away above the ceiling of the cabin in the tail section. At one point Boeing even proposed providing such for passengers along the rest of the fuselage, but that went nowhere.
> ...


For those who are curious I found some details and several photos of crew rest berths here...

http://www.financetwitter.com/2014/08/secret-revealed-the-secret-chambers-where-pilot-cabin-crew-rest-sleep-photos.html


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## BCL (Dec 13, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


I found a cutaway of a 787.


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