# Remembering the Golden Age that Preceded Amtrak



## 20th Century Rider (Jan 31, 2021)

Amtrak at 50? Time to bring back memories of the Golden Age of Passenger Rail Travel. Collectively there is certainly a lot of railroad knowledge, wisdom, and experience… certainly a lot to share. It would be great to hear of personal accounts and stories. When one considers that the foundation of Amtrak is built upon a hundred years of rail transit development in America, one would want to include the colorful and vivid history of the past.

It is also said that from knowing the past we learn how to move into the future. Nothing can be more true than the challenges we face today… in a very populated world with ecology and pollution and resources challenges needing innovations and solutions.

If you have a few minutes, here are some clips with original footage. Hoping this thread will catch on with the anticipation of sharing some really wonderful accounts. 

Let the magnificent Golden Age of the past be an inspiration for the future!


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 31, 2021)

Watching the end of the Wabash Cannonball as it pulled into the station... was a memory I will never forget. That train had been on my 'to do' list... and it never got done.

In January, 1971, I began graduate studies at Washington University, St. Louis. But when not hitting the books, I found myself at St. Louis Union Station gazing at the magnificent trains going in and out of what was one of the busiest rail stations in the country. But now the once magnificent historic place was neglected and looking very derelict in ’71. Although very sad… those magnificent trains kept arriving and passengers got on and off. No entrance to the platforms unless holding a ticket… so I gazed through the openings.

I made a special point of going down to the station on Friday, April 30th, ‘71… the last day of normal train operations in America… for the very next day on May 1, a national corporation was to take over all passenger operations. Only one train arriving during the time I could spend there. It was the Wabash Cannonball from Detroit… smack on time at 4:35pm. All the passengers got off and I was allowed on the concrete platform to see the beautiful train. Never will I forget the sudden quiet surrounding it... knowing this moment would just fade into history.

It had been my intention to take some rail trips from this once thriving station… and the Wabash Cannonball had been on the top of my list. Loved the song written for it. So it was a big disappointment to it see all come to an end. And now to start wondering about this new passenger corporation.

Believe it or not… the Wabash Cannonball was named after the famous song… and never actually went to the places described. The History News Network of Columbian College of Arts and Sciences, gives this account: *

“According to railroad historian Mike Schafer, the Wabash named one of its passenger trains for the song much later, rather than the song being named for the train, the usual case. In the song, the train took on more glamour and more destinations than its flat boring route from Detroit to Fort Wayne, Indiana, Decatur, Illinois, and on to St. Louis. Schafer believes that the popularity of the song helped prompt the public outcry that prevented the Wabash from ending the train; it survived until Amtrak took over passenger service across the U.S. in 1971. Charles Kuralt of CBS-TV went along on that last run, with a version of the song as the soundtrack.

Places the song mentions include the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, an implicit reference to the Gulf of Mexico, New York, Chicago, St. Louis, "the hills of Minnesota," Birmingham, Tennessee, and Alabama. Indeed, one line even claims "You're travelin' through the jungle on the Wabash Cannonball."

*Wabash Cannonball | History News Network


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## railiner (Jan 31, 2021)

That train was one of many that I rode, on routes that would be abandoned, in the final month's leading up to Amtrak. I rode it from St. Louis to Detroit.
There were so many other's, but I didn't have the time or the funds to get in most of them...


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## MARC Rider (Jan 31, 2021)

Since the pre-Amtrak railroad that I mostly rode was the Penn Central, I don't see the pre-Amtrak period as a "golden age."


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## PVD (Jan 31, 2021)

The Golden Age was well before Amtrak. If things were still so "Golden" the railroads wouldn't have abandoned passenger rail and there wouldn't be a need for Amtrak. The 707, 727, DC-8, and DC-9, dealt the real death blows.


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## railiner (Jan 31, 2021)

The "Golden Age" is quite subjective. Some might say it ended, when automobiles started proliferating with the Ford Model 'T" in the early 20th century...others might say when the airliner's carried more passenger's around the early sixties or so...
But some railroads maintained quality service right up to the end, such as the Santa Fe, and a few others, that were still investing in new rolling stock as late as 1965, and new locomotives even later. Even the much maligned Penn Central introduced Metroliner's and Turbo Trains...


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## MARC Rider (Jan 31, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Since the pre-Amtrak railroad that I mostly rode was the Penn Central, I don't see the pre-Amtrak period as a "golden age."


Actually, I should probably take at least some of that back. Aside from a Scout trip riding the Denver Zephyr (CB&Q) in coach, I never took any pre-Amtrak long distance trains. My sister once took one of the secondary (i.e. not the Broadway Limited) PC trains to Chicago due to an air traffic controllers' strike, and she had a real horror story to tell -- really late train, no food service, funky heat, toilets froze up, etc.) My pre-Amtrak riding was on the PC NEC trains between Philly and New York, or Philly and Baltimore. Plus, I would joy ride on the NEC between Philly and Wilmington and Philly and Trenton, and take the Juniata from 30th St to Paoli and then take the SEPTA-funded, PC branded Paoli Local back into the city. Immediately pre-Amtrak, I found the PC NEC service to be adequate -- frequent trains, and they were generally on time, so I could take a joy ride after school and still be home for dinner. My Mom would take the train to visit her family in Baltimore and would sometimes complain about the train stopping somewhere in the middle of nowhere between Wilmington and Baltimore, but I never remembered her being hours late coming home.

As for the experience, it was like riding in a mobile railway museum, with equipment ranging from circa 1920s P-70coaches to cutting edge Metroliner equipment. The P70s had no A/C, overhead ceiling fans, and flipover horsehair seats. There were also long-distance streamliner cars in the consist, no doubt made available from all of the train-offs during the 50s and 60s that had awesome seat pitch and full-width restroom lounges at each end of the car that blocked the noise made when the car doors opened to allow people to pass through. There also more modern lightweight coaches with reclining seats and less seat pitch, designed for corridor service. Some of these had builders plates showing they were built around 1949. A lot of them also noted that the cars are actually owned by this bank or that and were being leased to the railroad. There were also the New Haven coaches and the through trains to Boston that I always though were nicer than the PRR coaches. Those had a smoking lounge at one of of the car, separated by a partition with Art Deco cut class panels. Whenever I was waiting at the platform at 30th St., it was a bit of a game for me to (1) see what kind of coaches were in the consist, and (2) decide which one I wanted to ride.

The short trips I took didn't really allow me to sample the food and beverage service. When I was about 10, my parents send me home my myself from Baltimore on a morning train, and I had a breakfast in the dining car. I don't remember much of that, except, of course, I was pretty impressed with myself for being able to travel alone at age 10 and conduct the business transaction of ordering breakfast. If I got anything on the train, it was at the "snack bar coach," a coach that had a few rows of seats removed at one end and a small counter (it might have even been a cart) installed. They sold drinks and cold pre-fab sandwiches and probably candy and chips and such. I would avoid actually riding in the snack bar coach because there was always a long line of people standing in the aisle, which I would find uncomfortable if I were sitting in a seat. I recall that the prices were outrageous -- a 12 oz can of Coke cost 35 cents when you could get the same can at any vending machine on the streets of Philly or New York for 15 cents. The sandwiches didn't seem worth it, I preferred to just ride into Philly and get a decent cheeesesteak. 

I never tried riding in the Parlor Car, I thought it was way too expensive. Looking at old timetables, that meant that PHL-NYP in a parlor car seat was about $8.00 one way, whereas a coach seat was about $4.50. I could have probably afforded it occasionally for the experience, but I guess I was indoctrinated to avoid spending too much on frivolities. 

I found riding the pre-Amtrak trains fun, but I wouldn't say that they were some kind of transcendent travel experience. (Though I did get a charge out of the stretch in northeast Philly where the tracks parallel I-95, and even back in the GG-1 days we always left those cars in the dust.)


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## WWW (Feb 1, 2021)

PVD said:


> The Golden Age was well before Amtrak. If things were still so "Golden" the railroads wouldn't have abandoned passenger rail and there wouldn't be a need for Amtrak. The 707, 727, DC-8, and DC-9, dealt the real death blows.



With the introduction of those aircraft it started the GOLDEN AGE of aviation:
2 free checked bags - meals - seat assignment and a "civil" age of behavior conduct of passengers.

Hopefully it will return - both on the rails and in the air !

Return with us now to the thrilling days of yesteryear - who is that masked traveler ?
Train travel was something to boast rave about and enjoy in those times.
I was too young and occupied with other means of making a living until September of '65 when my airlines career
got a start. Trains always did have a warm place in my heart - now there are charter private varnish excursions to
remember those days and even that is flawed by the virus.

Seize the moment to grab a trip on the rails - any trip - any track !
Keep alert for those special train trips or those bucket list of trips you have on the back burner !


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## railiner (Feb 1, 2021)

I got started railfanning, rather late...around 1967 or '68. So I only had a few years to sample the waning private railroad offerings before Amtrak. I was always a fan of all modes of transport, but my family only exposed me to subway, bus, or automobile travel. I didn't even ride any LIRR commuter trains. I got my first 'real' railroad ride in 1966, on the Illinois Central's Train No. 8, The Creole, from Rantoul, IL. to Chicago, while on a weekend pass from Chanute AFB.

I remember the classic depot, with signs admonishing to "do not place grips on benches"... of hearing the melodious chime horn of the E units blowing for the crossing, causing a bunch of us to run outside, only to see the express 'City of Miami', come thundering by. Our train came in about 20 minutes later. I recall the distinctive aroma of the Vapor steam radiators. I grabbed a window seat, and was turned away from it, talking to my seatmate, and asking how soon we would be going, only to see him grin and tell me to turn around and look out the window...we had started so imperceptibly, that I hadn't noticed, and we were now rolling along about 20 mph. I was used to the jerking of subway trains...
The Creole was an all-stops local, and I was amazed how smoothly it rode, and how smoothly the stops and starts were. And how we passed the vehicles on parallel US-45 so fast, it appeared they were going backwards.

I was still a fan of intercity buses, Scenicruiser's, Eagle's, et al, and I got a job with Continental Trailways as a ticket agent, which gave me a free annual pass. I immediately started riding every where on my rest days. A co-worker was a railfan, and talked me into taking a trip on what he termed "the convincer", to see how superior trains were. So we used our passes to get from NYC to Chicago. Then we boarded the combined Burlington-Northern Pacific-Great Northern "Afternoon Twin Cities Zephyr-North Coast Limited-Empire Builder" for the trip to Minneapolis. It was amazing, with several diners, lounges, Vista Domes, Great Dome, sleepers, legrest chair cars....
I was 'convinced'...

Other rides were on the Broadway Limited from NYC to Harrisburg, just to enjoy dinner in the twin-unit diner. We boarded at Penn Station, and on the opposite side of the platform was a LIRR train. It was fun sitting in the diner before even departing, at those tables with the signature Pennsy table lamps, and watching the passing commuters glancing in at us with envy. 
As the jovial waiter brought our bread basket and butter, my friend exclaimed that he recalled when the butter pats had PRR Keystones molded into the pat. The veteran waiter broke into a broad grin of delight at that memory, and placed a basket of apples on our table, telling us to take all we wanted...

One of the nice benefits of having a travel pass in those days, was a lot of 'reciprocity' unofficially, by other, even competing carrier's. So we got free rides also on Greyhound. Especially in the Northeast Corridor, but not so much outside of it. Even the Penn Central and LIRR would 'cross-honor' depending on the conductor, and vice versa. When I went from ticket agent to Asst. Dispatcher, I was responsible for supervising the loading of certain gates at The Port Authority Bus Terminal. I had the discretion to 'put on' passenger's, complimentary if appropriate. We gave comp rides to other transport workers, and law enforcement officers (driver's loved the security of having "a badge" on board). We had one PC locomotive engineer who rode to Exit 4 NJTP Park and Ride, with us regularly. When I learned of his occupation, I started giving him comp rides, and then the driver's got to recognize him, and do likewise, even when I wasn't there. Unlike Conductor's, he wore no uniform, but did have his PC pass. After he learned I was a railfan, he offered me a cab ride up to Albany.

So, I met him at the head end of his train in Grand Central Terminal. He ran the P-Motor as far as Croton-Harmon. He arranged for me to continue aboard the E-8 from there up to Albany. The 'E' rode like a Cadillac compared to the 'P'. This was my first of many cab rides I scored over the next few decades, working for railroads at that time.

I could probably write a book of my memories, but just don't have the ambition...so would like to read more of what other's experienced...


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## PaTrainFan (Feb 1, 2021)

I was a child in Ohio during the 60s, so that was not the "Golden Years" with a lot of PRR/Penn Central riding which doesn't evoke fond recollections. But my fondest memory was the "California Zephyr." Also great experiences on the Burlington's "Denver Zephyr," Great Northern's "Western Star," the CN's "Super Continental" and CP's "The Canadian." Wish I could have ridden he "Super Chief" in its heyday, not to mention the "Broadway Limited" and "20th Centry Limited."


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 1, 2021)

True to form there are many interpretations of 'The Golden Age of Rail Travel in America.' Some say it ended when WWII began and had to be shifted to troop transport. Others say it ended after WWII and the construction of the interstate system; and yet others say that it ended in the 50's as it lost out to automobile travel. 

Some of it was really upscale, and some was quite crude... a very mixed bag with much variety.

Yet auto travel brought many innovations to rail as it struggled to survive at a time of shifting preference to the car. The glamour of the time was captured in the amazing promotional pictures... which have become iconic art in themselves.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 1, 2021)

In comparison to certain aspects of rail travel in 2021, the 1950's and 1960's were my "Golden Age of Rail Travel". NYC's Ohio State Limited, PRR's The Ohioan and The Buckeye, C&NW's Dakota 400, Twin Cities 400, and Rochester and Black Hills Special, C&O's The George Washington and The Sportsman: all provided memorable travel journeys. While not the Super Chief, Broadway Limited, Empire Builder, City of Los Angeles, or the 20th Century Limited, etc., those trains were my "deluxe" trains at that time.

Pullman Porters, Dining Car Stewards and Waiters, station personnel, Conductors and Trainmen: all were unfailingly polite, welcoming, and helpful. Dining Car meals that were delicious, elegantly served, with enticing menus that were attractive just to view. Prices in the Dining Car and the Lounge Cars were reasonable for the quality received. (If I recall correctly, 10 cents for a can of Ginger Ale, as an example.) 

Amtrak's record is spotty in many categories and has surely experienced "highs and lows" in its years of existence. If one enjoys traveling by train, it is "the only game in town" for LD travel. One can hope for a return to better days for Amtrak.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Feb 2, 2021)

To me, some of the most interesting consists existed during the transition years between heavyweight and streamline when you would see a mix of both on a train, often second tier or lower service. Without doing any research, I wonder if any heavyweights (likely bags) survived into Amtrak?


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## WWW (Feb 2, 2021)

Fond recollection of the event of February 23 1961 -
Swore an oath to the Constitution of the USA signing up for 3 years US Army.
Left Minneapolis out of the Milwaukee Depot on the Rock Island RR for Kansas City connecting to the UP for Junction City Kansas
(Note MSP had 3 depots at that time the Milwaukee and Great Northern in Minneapolis and the Union Depot in St.Paul)
Sunny daylight departure arriving in Kansas City at dusk.
Rock Island was a full service RR and we were given vouchers to use for the meal service - forget the limitations on what
was written - We were given Carte Blanche everything except the alcohol.
Table cloth dining and anything from the menu 
About a 4 hour layover connecting to the UP to Junction City KS.
USO gave us a welcoming time not forgotten in Kansas City awaiting the connection.
A sort of red-eye trip leaving Kansas City to Junction City.
Arrival at Junction City in the wee hours and got introduced to my new father mother sister brother aka Training Sergeant !
With about 4 hours rest reveille sounded and 8 weeks of all kinds of fun began.
At Fort Riley Kansas often could hear the whistle blow of the UP traffic in the distance.
AWOL beckoning but not in the cards - - -

Next train trip in Germany from Bremerhaven to Pirmasens (about 40 clicks south of Kaiserslautern - think Ramstein AFB).
Many RR trips in Germany moving ordinance here and there (classified at that time)
After almost 3 years of that the final RR trip to Bremerhaven and rotation back to the CONUS.

Railway passion kicked in big time with being President of the local airline activities committee.
Frequent trips from MSP to Duluth for a harbor tour - visit to the Glensheen (murder) mansion.

And now being a Lifetime Member of the Friends of the 261 any trip chartering our equipment here and there to meet
the needs of our clients. Prior to the covid virus often you could see the Milwaukee Cedar Rapids and Superdome cars
ferrying to Chicago for charter use - and what a thrill to ride these just like the days of old.
We have many excursions planned later this year all depending on overcoming the virus.
Most of these trips are simply a daylight excursion out to a point of return and back - no sleeper overnight stuff.
Used to have weekend overnight excursions to Duluth MN but PCT and other issues have dampened these events. 
The 261 has a former Milwaukee Road steam locomotive - you guessed it the 261 - oh what a powerhouse to take a
trip on her. Recently acquired another former Milwaukee locomotive an EMD 32A - to make possible those impossible
one-way trips. Check out the website at 261.com.

Talk about the metalic ages of the railroad - I have seen quite a bit and thankful to have had the limited opportunity
to enjoy it - looking forward to even more !
Next big event is the ACE (autumn colors express) in Huntington WV late October '21
Bucket list: Winnipeg to Churchill - Rocky Mountaineer - Indian Express from Sydney to Perth - and return to do the
Denali trip on the Alaska RR from Anchorage to Fairbanks (cruise ship included) !


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 2, 2021)

WWW said:


> Fond recollection of the event of February 23 1961 -
> Swore an oath to the Constitution of the USA signing up for 3 years US Army.
> Left Minneapolis out of the Milwaukee Depot on the Rock Island RR for Kansas City connecting to the UP for Junction City Kansas
> (Note MSP had 3 depots at that time the Milwaukee and Great Northern in Minneapolis and the Union Depot in St.Paul)
> ...


Great post... and recalling the din of the Milwaukee Road Station as I traversed there many times when leaving Milwaukee for college up in Northern Wisconsin!


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## railiner (Feb 2, 2021)

WWW said:


> Fond recollection of the event of February 23 1961 -
> Swore an oath to the Constitution of the USA signing up for 3 years US Army.
> Left Minneapolis out of the Milwaukee Depot on the Rock Island RR for Kansas City connecting to the UP for Junction City Kansas
> (Note MSP had 3 depots at that time the Milwaukee and Great Northern in Minneapolis and the Union Depot in St.Paul)
> ...


Great story, thanks for posting....and thanks, for your service...


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## Steve4031 (Feb 2, 2021)

I was born in 1966. I barely remember the golden age of railroading. I do remember a trip from Chillicothe, IL to Oklahoma City on what was probably the Texas Chief. I remember seeing the warbonnet paint scheme and then riding in the observation car as we crossed the Mississippi River. On the return I remember eating dinner in the dining car, but not much else. I must have been 4 or 5. My parents took us on this trip because they believed that overnight trains were on the way out. 

In 1974, we took a family trip from Galesburg, IL to Oakland on the San Francisco Zephyr. I remember many details from this trip. This was the trip that caused me to become a railfan. This was my first ride in a dome car. That first night I was transfixed watching the signals turn from green to red as we raced across Iowa. The next morning we woke up in eastern Colorado with The Rockies in the distance. This was my first time seeing mountains. In Denver, my father got off to buy a newspaper. This was in the middle of the Watergate scandal and he was determined to keep up with the news. 

Then the porter closed the trap, and the door. I thought Dad was getting left and started to cry. The porter explained that we were only switching to add cars to the train. He let my sister and I look out the open dutch door. I quickly forgot about Dad, and was enthralled with watching the train snake through the switches and hearing the wheels clatter through the switches. My sister and I had a spitting contest to see who could spit the farthest. I remember smelling the creasote baking on the ties. We moved forward and backwards 3 or 4 times, so we must have been removing and adding cars. Eventually, we rolled back into the station and Dad was calmly standing on the platform with his paper. 

To save money, we had packed sandwiches. We walked through the train to the dome car that we had ridden in the night before. We discovered a full length dome car. This was a whole new world for me. We sat up in the dome car. I happily anticipated going west through the Rockies. Then the train jolted and we started rolling backwards. I assumed we would stop. We did not. We rolled backwards all the way to Cheyenne. The Rockies were sitting oh so close, but we were not getting any closer to them. In Cheyenne, the engines switched ends and we started moving forward.

I was not impressed with Sherman Hill. I did not learn about Sherman Hill until reading about it years later. But that day in 1974 I was expecting to get closer to the mountains and we did not. As we rolled across the plateaus of Wyoming, my father spotted a Tornado in the distance. The train rolled along in a business as usual manner, so the storm must have been far away. We saw antelope. My sister and I had a pillow fight in the bedroom. Not sure what Dad and Mom were doing but we beat the hell out of each other with those pillows. I remember Dinner in the dining car and rolling through a tunnel as some passengers sang happy birthday to a family member. That evening, as we got ready for bed, I remember rolling through (I learned years later) Echo Canyon. 

The next morning we had breakfast as we crossed the Nevada desert. I saw my first cactus. Then we left Reno and began the ascent of the Sierra Nevada. This was my introduction to mountain railroading, and this is still one of my favorite sections to travel over. After we departed Colfax, I convinced my father to walk with me to the back of the train to find the railfan window. I intuitively new that it might be possible to look at the tracks from the last car of the train. The brakeman was back there with the door open. He let me stand and watch from a safe distance as we rolled down the section where the wb and eb tracks had different alignments. This experience ensured that I was not a die hard railfan. 

We rode cable cars in San Francisco. We missed the Coast Starlight in Oakland because the cab driver could not find the station. Thus riding the train to Bakersfield and taking the bus to LA and then catching a train to Fullerton so we could take a cab to a hotel near Disney Land. We returned to Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal to catch the Southwest Limited to Albuquerque. We boarded the train and discovered that different sleeping cars had been substituted for the car we were booked in. We did not have connecting bedrooms as planned. There were no bedrooms at all. My dad gave the conductor the business. The best that could be done was for roomettes. I listened to the entire argument as I looked out the railfan window. Of course I thought the idea of having my own room was fabulous. My sister, who was three years older than me and never missed a chance to tell me that I was immature, was not so happy. She started to cry. I told her she was immature if she could not ride by herself in a roomette. This earned me a scolding from both parents. Eventually we were all settled into our roomettes. I was tooked in. The lights were turn off, and the window shade was put down. As soon as I was not supervised, the window shade went up and I spent hours looking out the window. 

My experiences on this trip led to me constantly bugging my dad for more. We rode all over the country on a rail pass in 1978. And in 1979, the tradition of summer Amtrak trips started. I would ride with my dad (who was traveling on business) in one direction, and then ride back to Chicago by myself. I did this on the Broadway Limited and the Lone Star. Also the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited. In high school I started taking summer trips by myself.


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## fdaley (Feb 2, 2021)

In 1956, a few years before I was born, my family moved from Millburn NJ to Scranton PA. Even then, Joe Biden's hometown was struggling, the hub of a coal-mining region that had gone into steep decline.

Although it was only 135 miles from New York City, it is difficult to imagine now just how insular Scranton was in those days before the interstate highways. Even in the '70s, after the highways came through, we used to joke about living "behind the anthracite curtain," as it seemed there were so many people there who never ventured beyond the coal towns that lined the Lackawanna and Susquehanna valleys.

In the '50s, for those who did travel to the world beyond, the trains of the Lackawanna Railroad were the way to go. And my older brother, whose heart was already in metro New York and who never adjusted to Scranton, discovered those trains. So every couple of months for most of the next decade, beginning when he was about 7, my mother would put him onto the eastbound Phoebe Snow at Scranton on Friday afternoon after school, and he'd ride to Brick Church station in New Jersey, where my grandparents would pick him up in time for dinner. On Saturday they'd plan a day trip to New York. On Sunday, he'd board the Phoebe just before 11 and be back in Scranton about 1:30. From those trips, a lifetime of train enthusiasm was born -- for him and later for me.

Although I was too young to ride along with my brother on most of those trips, my earliest memory of train travel is from one Christmas, I think it was 1964, when my mother and I joined him for the ride to NJ and back. By this time the Lackawanna had merged with the Erie, and the Phoebe had been converted to an overnight run originating in Chicago, rather than a day run from Buffalo. The eastbound was hours late coming from Chicago. I remember sitting for a long time in the waiting room at Scranton, with the light fixtures lining the tops of those high-backed benches -- so tall that I couldn't see over them even if I stood on the bench, which I was repeatedly asked not to do. Eventually we boarded a train that originated in Scranton after dark and took us eastward, and I remember my brother being put out that it wasn't the real Phoebe, which still hadn't shown up.

On the return trip, though, we rode the Phoebe, and my brother knew the route by heart -- the high line across western NJ, then snaking through the Delaware Water Gap, up into the Poconos and down the Roaring Brook gorge into Scranton. I remember staring out the window and the sensation of passing freight cars at speed and the spray of new-fallen snow that the train kicked up as it raced through the countryside.

In a couple of years, the Phoebe Snow was gone, though the Erie Lackawanna still had another train, the Lake Cities, that my brother and grandparents rode occasionally through the late '60s till it too was gone.


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## railiner (Feb 2, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> I was born in 1966. I barely remember the golden age of railroading. I do remember a trip from Chillicothe, IL to Oklahoma City on what was probably the Texas Chief. I remember seeing the warbonnet paint scheme and then riding in the observation car as we crossed the Mississippi River. On the return I remember eating dinner in the dining car, but not much else. I must have been 4 or 5. My parents took us on this trip because they believed that overnight trains were on the way out.
> 
> In 1974, we took a family trip from Galesburg, IL to Oakland on the San Francisco Zephyr. I remember many details from this trip. This was the trip that caused me to become a railfan. This was my first ride in a dome car. That first night I was transfixed watching the signals turn from green to red as we raced across Iowa. The next morning we woke up in eastern Colorado with The Rockies in the distance. This was my first time seeing mountains. In Denver, my father got off to buy a newspaper. This was in the middle of the Watergate scandal and he was determined to keep up with the news.
> 
> ...


Another great story, thanks for posting!
IIRC, you rode during the era that the SP would not allow standard height dome cars on their train, due to tight clearances. They only allowed their low clearance, "three quarter length" dome lounge, So at Denver, the standard domes coming from Chicago were cut out, and the ex-SP dome lounge was added.


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## railiner (Feb 2, 2021)

fdaley said:


> In 1956, a few years before I was born, my family moved from Millburn NJ to Scranton PA. Even then, Joe Biden's hometown was struggling, the hub of a coal-mining region that had gone into steep decline.
> 
> Although it was only 135 miles from New York City, it is difficult to imagine now just how insular Scranton was in those days before the interstate highways. Even in the '70s, after the highways came through, we used to joke about living "behind the anthracite curtain," as it seemed there were so many people there who never ventured beyond the coal towns that lined the Lackawanna and Susquehanna valleys.
> 
> ...


Very much enjoyed your story, too. Thanks for posting!
The E-L Lake Cities was another one of the trains I managed to get in pre Amtrak, although it ended the year before...


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## fdaley (Feb 2, 2021)

railiner said:


> Very much enjoyed your story, too. Thanks for posting!
> The E-L Lake Cities was another one of the trains I managed to get in pre Amtrak, although it ended the year before...



Thanks. I never got to see the Lake Cities, which came through Scranton at hours when kids weren't supposed to be awake. I just remember that when my brother or grandparents were taking it, I'd wake up and find them gone, because one of my parents would have taken them down to the station at 5 a.m.

I do recall that at Christmastime of 1969, which was pretty near the end for EL trains, my brother was home from his freshman year at college, and there'd been a major snowstorm that left most of the city streets clogged with snow. But he walked across town to visit his best pal from high school, and he was all excited because, walking home late at night in the snow, he'd seen a very long passenger train, 10-15 cars, stopped at the Scranton station. We never did figure out if that was the Lake Cities, with its consist perhaps swollen by holiday traffic, or if it was some sort of charter. I know the EL at that point was pretty receptive to group travel and excursions, and in '67 or '68 my brother had booked his high school class on a trip to NYC using an extra car added to the Lake Cities.


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## Night Ranger (Feb 2, 2021)

My earliest recollection of a train trip, and it has dimmed with age, was in the early 50s. I was maybe 6 at the time when we rode the train from Chattanooga to Cinncinnati. I don't remember much of the trip except spending a lot of time in my grandmother's lap and being fascinated by the gravity toilet when I flushed it. Later, we made trips on both the Dixie Flyer and Southern Crescent but those were near the tail end of the post war Golden Age that preceded Amtrak.

I grew up with stories of WWII troop trains as every male in my family served and everyone of them rode troop trains, even my navigator namesake uncle. Those stories convinced me that I hadn't missed a thing not riding on one.


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## railiner (Feb 3, 2021)

fdaley said:


> . I know the EL at that point was pretty receptive to group travel and excursions, and in '67 or '68 my brother had booked his high school class on a trip to NYC using an extra car added to the Lake Cities.


That brings back memories of the Penn Central era, when I worked for Continental Trailways...
We had a pretty good business of taking HS kids on charters from various places to Chicago, where they then boarded the CB&Q for a trip to Colorado.
This was all arranged by the Burlington's group sales department. The reason was twofold...they didn't care much for the erratic service rendered by the PC, and the 'Q' still had close working relation's with Continental Trailways, since they had owned a very large portion of its predecessor lines until 1946.

At the other end of the 'Q', they also turned over large numbers of Scouts at Denver to us for transport to the Philmont, NM Scout Ranch each summer.
The Santa Fe did too, although only for the short hop from Raton...


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## Ziv (Feb 3, 2021)

My first trip on a passenger train was probably around 1972 or 1973, right at the end of the Golden Age of Railroads in America. It was technically an Amtrak train but it still felt like a Great Northern train. My Dad and I were taking a trip from our home in Glasgow Montana to Seattle to see my Uncle Bobby. I remember the awe I felt seeing the smartly uniformed conductor welcoming us aboard like he knew my Dad or something. Looking back, my Dad was involved with UTU activity for Great Northern (he was a GN freight brakeman at the time) so even if they didn't know each other they probably recognized each other. I am not sure if it was this trip or something I had seen earlier, but I remember an engineer climbing up 6 or 7 ladder rungs to get into the locomotive, it was like a harbor pilot climbing up the side of a sailing ship. Then the conductor called "All Aboard!", picked up the step and stepped aboard the train and we gently set out through my home town.
We went to our bedroom and it was like a palatial suite to me, albeit in miniature. The porter came by and introduced himself and it was a jolt to see a black person since we only had one black family in my home town. After he left my Dad said I was to call him Mister "Smith" (I have forgotten his name over the years) and NOT to call him boy. He was pretty adamant about it which kind of confused me but in retrospect I think black porters were new to the UTU at that time and some of the membership was not too happy about it. I don't think my Dad was a shop steward yet but he was probably getting grief from some of his friends about it. But Mr. Smith stopped by a little later with coffee for my Dad and a soda for me which was the height of luxury for a 10 year old kid. That porter was outstanding, every time I got a bit bored, he would pop by with a treat, or a heads up regarding a particularly scenic spot coming up or an invitation to see some part of the train I hadn't spotted yet.
So my Dad and I settled in to the room and we named every spot going by that we knew from driving or hunting as we passed by Hinsdale, Saco, Malta, Chinook and Havre. He pointed out where Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid blew up a railcar back in 1899 trying to get into the mail car safe.
We got to the Browning bridge before sunset and we saw a bit of Glacier Park but I don't remember more than a few minutes of sunlight before the park disappeared in the darkness as the sun set. I do remember sitting in the front of the dome car and watching the trees roll by and spotting one slightly startled moose look up at the locomotive and slowly trot off into the woods. The snow sheds seemed pretty cool too.
We went to have dinner in the dining car and my Dad had the steak and I had fish, probably halibut or flounder, and it was OUTSTANDING! When we got back to the sleeping car the beds were turned down and that service seemed pretty cool. I think my Dad left his good boots outside the door and they were freshly polished when we woke up. I was not entirely happy about that because that was one of my chores at home, I got 25 cents every time I polished those boots and a quarter went a lot further back then! I remember falling asleep listening to clicketyclack of the rails and hearing the whistle sounding way off at the front of the train.
I woke up at Spokane but fell asleep again pretty quickly and when I woke I was dumbstruck by the verdant greenery of Washington state. Northern Montana is semi-arid so Washington looked like a rain forest to me.
When the train pulled into Seattle, it was like a scene from a movie for me, with the porter wishing us a good day, my Dad shaking his hand and giving him a tip, (how and how much a gentleman tips was one of the subjects he taught us boys) the crowds of people stepping down to the platform, the huge train depot with the brick tower and the conductor calling out to my Dad by name and my Dad calling out his farewell. Seeing my Aunt, Uncle and cousins again was kind of anticlimactic after all that. LOL!
The only thing that sticks in my mind after that is the smell of the sea as we pulled up to a fishing boat on Puget Sound the next day. That smell has stuck with me all my life. Not even the fishing trip made as much of an impression on me as the smell itself.
A year or two later my father was injured pretty badly and spent nearly a year working as a passenger train conductor on the Empire Builder until he could go back to his work as a freight train brakeman and later as a freight conductor for GN. We were all pretty impressed the first couple times he wore the uniform. I am not sure if a switch like that would be allowed today.
Great memories!
On edit: The locomotive I remember may have been an EMD F7 and the photos I am finding now make that climb up a little less amazing than I remember, but still pretty impressive.


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## frequentflyer (Feb 3, 2021)

Interesting the similarities between the EMD E and F units to the Siemens units today. EMD or GM understood aerodynamics, The E unts could debut today and still look the part in the 21st century.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 3, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> Interesting the similarities between the EMD E and F units to the Siemens units today. EMD or GM understood aerodynamics, The E unts could debut today and still look the part in the 21st century.


By far the Best of the Diesels!!!


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## MARC Rider (Feb 3, 2021)

railiner said:


> That brings back memories of the Penn Central era, when I worked for Continental Trailways...
> We had a pretty good business of taking HS kids on charters from various places to Chicago, where they then boarded the CB&Q for a trip to Colorado.
> This was all arranged by the Burlington's group sales department. The reason was twofold...they didn't care much for the erratic service rendered by the PC, and the 'Q' still had close working relation's with Continental Trailways, since they had owned a very large portion of its predecessor lines until 1946.
> 
> ...


Yep, I took one of those trips in 1968 as a Scout going to Philmont. Trailways charter bus from Philly to Chicago, Denver Zephyr to Denver, and another Trailways bus over the Raton Pass into Philmont.


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## Palmland (Feb 3, 2021)

For me, the golden age of passenger trains began post war with the introduction of the many war delayed streamliners such as the '48 Century and Broadway Ltd. It ended with the advent of the B707 that began regular service in 1958 - about the same time construction really ramped up on the Interstates. 

I was fortunate to be a young boy during the later half of that period and got to experience rides on many trains in the east. Many great memories from those trips: Boarding the Naitonal Ltd in Wilmington, DE right after final exams (which may be the reason I never did very well on them) for our annual trip to Tennessee. It was highlighted by backing into Washington and soon after the rear door on our sleeper was opened to a somewhat exotic bright red shiny Frisco sleeper, a MP sleeper bound for the mysterious southwest. Then opening the door to the hushed and refined atmosphere in the classic observation car on the rear (ex NYC) that required a full sprint to grab the seat facing the rear window. The awe inspiring Cincinnati Union Terminal followed the nest morning was follwed by a leisurely all day ride on the Pan American with the world's best turkey sandwiches (turkey cooked on board of course) as the train accelerated from Louisville to attack the grade on Muldraugh's Hill.

Other notable trips then included a spring vacation trip to Florida and a very long East Coast Champion with a glimpse in the morning of Jacksonville Terminal's 0-8-0 switcher. On a another trip I had a ride in the parlor car on the pocket streamliner Nancy Hanks II (spent most of the time at the rear window as we passed sleepy southern towns) followed by a bedroom on the Southerner back home. A couple years later I took my first solo trip from Paoli, PA on PRR's Cincinnati Ltd and feeling so grown up (although the Pullman porter had strict instruction to take care of me - he did) and worrying about the tip in the dining car by a slightly bemused waiter. 

During college years in the 60's I had many rail adventures, mostly in the west where i was in grad school. My favorite eastern trip was a two night trek on Seaboard's Palmland and vividly recall hanging out the dutch door as a we sped (had to be in excess of 79) across the many trestles of Seaboard 'smore easterly route between Savannah and Jacksonville. In the west I took a daytime ride on the SF Chief and my first experience with the high level cars; a King's dinneer on the Panama Ltd; an overnight ride on a nameless CB&Q train to Amarillo that still carried an original Zephyr observation serving breakfast; a packed observation on the DZ during spring break as it stormed across eastern Colorado; and ending my many joy rides was a trip on the all Pullman Super Chief enroute to my wedding in Arizona with cocktails in the 'Pleasure Dome' lounge car. And then I had to get a job. Bummer!


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## jpakala (Feb 3, 2021)

My first trip was in June 1944 at 3 months of age but told later all about it. We went from Pittsburgh to eastern SD, with a PRR day train to Chicago and then onto the C&NW. Mom had first-class but it was in a club car and her seat was not large, with back to the wall. After she had changed my diaper a man rose from a card game, offering to exchange her seat for his in the parlor car. She agreed and found herself in a large rotating chair with plenty of floor space for the baby basket. Later in Chicago my brother, sister, and someone from SD who'd come to help when Mom was many days (back then) in the hospital arrived and were covered with coal dust. On their train my brother held a paper cup out the window and collected cinders. On the C&NW we all had open section berths, but I guess not AC because my sister remembers seeing the roof vents from her upper berth and may have adjusted or closed one.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 3, 2021)

Palmland said:


> For me, the golden age of passenger trains began post war with the introduction of the many war delayed streamliners such as the '48 Century and Broadway Ltd. It ended with the advent of the B707 that began regular service in 1958 - about the same time construction really ramped up on the Interstates.
> 
> I was fortunate to be a young boy during the later half of that period and got to experience rides on many trains in the east. Many great memories from those trips: Boarding the Naitonal Ltd in Wilmington, DE right after final exams (which may be the reason I never did very well on them) for our annual trip to Tennessee. It was highlighted by backing into Washington and soon after the rear door on our sleeper was opened to a somewhat exotic bright red shiny Frisco sleeper, a MP sleeper bound for the mysterious southwest. Then opening the door to the hushed and refined atmosphere in the classic observation car on the rear (ex NYC) that required a full sprint to grab the seat facing the rear window. The awe inspiring Cincinnati Union Terminal followed the nest morning was follwed by a leisurely all day ride on the Pan American with the world's best turkey sandwiches (turkey cooked on board of course) as the train accelerated from Louisville to attack the grade on Muldraugh's Hill.
> 
> ...


Fantastic journeys!
Great Memories! I've always been sorry I missed the Kings Dinner on the Panama Ltd. and the " Real"Broadway Ltd., but was lucky enough to ride on the Super Chief when it was still All Pullman and eat in the Diner!!


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## jiml (Feb 3, 2021)

I've really enjoyed reading these stories. Unfortunately, although I'm a contemporary of many who've posted, my childhood experiences are limited to numerous trips on Budd RDC's through towns and villages which now comprise Toronto's western suburbs. Nothing exciting, although I was able to watch trains at the end of my street, which dead-ended at the CN mainline in what is now Mississauga, ON. First "real" train trips started in the 70's.


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## dlagrua (Feb 3, 2021)

I was too young and my parents never vacationed so I never saw what things were like in the Golden Age of Passenger rail. As a young boy I only recall one train trip from NYC/GCT to Hartford CT on the New Haven and we never left the coach seats during the 3 hour trip.
My experience with passenger rail began only 20 years ago with our first bedoom trip on the Autotrain to Sanford. I guess that you could call that the Golden Age for my wife and myself. We were greeted onboard with wine, cheese and snacks. The food in the diner was of very good quality and even included ice cream for desert. There were flowers on the dinner table, china plates/silverware, a white tablecloth, ice in the sleepers, and did I forget the chocolates? The next morning there was a newspaper left outside our bedroom door. Sadly prices have sharply risen and most of the amenities have gone away.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 3, 2021)

Ziv said:


> My first trip on a passenger train was probably around 1972 or 1973, right at the end of the Golden Age of Railroads in America. It was technically an Amtrak train but it still felt like a Great Northern train. My Dad and I were taking a trip from our home in Glasgow Montana to Seattle to see my Uncle Bobby. I remember the awe I felt seeing the smartly uniformed conductor welcoming us aboard like he knew my Dad or something. Looking back, my Dad was involved with UTU activity for Great Northern (he was a GN freight brakeman at the time) so even if they didn't know each other they probably recognized each other. I am not sure if it was this trip or something I had seen earlier, but I remember an engineer climbing up 6 or 7 ladder rungs to get into the locomotive, it was like a harbor pilot climbing up the side of a sailing ship. Then the conductor called "All Aboard!", picked up the step and stepped aboard the train and we gently set out through my home town.
> We went to our bedroom and it was like a palatial suite to me, albeit in miniature. The porter came by and introduced himself and it was a jolt to see a black person since we only had one black family in my home town. After he left my Dad said I was to call him Mister "Smith" (I have forgotten his name over the years) and NOT to call him boy. He was pretty adamant about it which kind of confused me but in retrospect I think black porters were new to the UTU at that time and some of the membership was not too happy about it. I don't think my Dad was a shop steward yet but he was probably getting grief from some of his friends about it. But Mr. Smith stopped by a little later with coffee for my Dad and a soda for me which was the height of luxury for a 10 year old kid. That porter was outstanding, every time I got a bit bored, he would pop by with a treat, or a heads up regarding a particularly scenic spot coming up or an invitation to see some part of the train I hadn't spotted yet.
> So my Dad and I settled in to the room and we named every spot going by that we knew from driving or hunting as we passed by Hinsdale, Saco, Malta, Chinook and Havre. He pointed out where Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid blew up a railcar back in 1899 trying to get into the mail car safe.
> We got to the Browning bridge before sunset and we saw a bit of Glacier Park but I don't remember more than a few minutes of sunlight before the park disappeared in the darkness as the sun set. I do remember sitting in the front of the dome car and watching the trees roll by and spotting one slightly startled moose look up at the locomotive and slowly trot off into the woods. The snow sheds seemed pretty cool too.
> ...


Absolutely wonderfully detailed account of the newly Amtrak-ed Empire Builder... bringing back some personal memories of when I rode this beautiful train just before Amtrak take-over.

No... it will never be the same again...


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 3, 2021)

Palmland said:


> For me, the golden age of passenger trains began post war with the introduction of the many war delayed streamliners such as the '48 Century and Broadway Ltd. It ended with the advent of the B707 that began regular service in 1958 - about the same time construction really ramped up on the Interstates.
> 
> I was fortunate to be a young boy during the later half of that period and got to experience rides on many trains in the east. Many great memories from those trips: Boarding the Naitonal Ltd in Wilmington, DE right after final exams (which may be the reason I never did very well on them) for our annual trip to Tennessee. It was highlighted by backing into Washington and soon after the rear door on our sleeper was opened to a somewhat exotic bright red shiny Frisco sleeper, a MP sleeper bound for the mysterious southwest. Then opening the door to the hushed and refined atmosphere in the classic observation car on the rear (ex NYC) that required a full sprint to grab the seat facing the rear window. The awe inspiring Cincinnati Union Terminal followed the nest morning was follwed by a leisurely all day ride on the Pan American with the world's best turkey sandwiches (turkey cooked on board of course) as the train accelerated from Louisville to attack the grade on Muldraugh's Hill.
> 
> ...



Yes yes yes... remembering those days from the 60's as I was about to graduate college and see the world. It didn't matter where the train was going... what mattered was that it was going... and that you were on it. Gazing out the window watching the world go by... what memories!!!


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## Siegmund (Feb 4, 2021)

I am too young to have experienced anything before F40PHs ruled the passenger trains and SD40-2s the freight. I remember watching with envy and excitement when friends who rode the Rio Grande Zephyr showed us slides of their trip. But my dad kept me well supplied with trips to museums and heritage steam runs. I rode behind quite a lot of steam - the Royal Hudson and the Silverton among others - got a few steam cab rides, and chased the 844(4) across the desert a time or two. One of the few things that makes me feel like an old man is remembering seeing N&W 611 at the museum in Roanoke before the _first _restoration to service. I know I saw the occasional F-unit in a museum... but I have still never ridden behind one, or even seen one move. The big rush of F7-pulled tourist and dinner trains hadn't gotten going yet when I went away to college.

The way some of you regret not getting to ride the trains of the 60s before Amtrak day... I feel the same way about missing out on all the VIA routes that still ran to odd little places when I was a boy, and the Newfoundland Railway.

I've had no choice but to cultivate an interest in history and modeling. And in walking and driving lots of old railroad grades, many of which are now impassable or fenced off: I got to drive a car through Milwaukee's Pipestone Pass summit tunnel, and drive almost all of the Union Pacific branch from Ashton, ID, to West Yellowstone, MT (now beaten into oblivion by 4-wheelers and snowmobiles.)

Lacking any stories about the old days, the least I can do is share a pair of 8mm films I have run across on youtube, showing a GN RDC from Helena to Butte, the North Coast Limited from Butte to Billings, and a CB&Q train southward toward denver (plus the nose of the UP Butte Special sitting in Butte): Helena to Butte and eastward from Butte. It is still a rush to have been in almost every place shown in the video, and think about what the trip must have been like back then, even with the trains gone now.


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## ehbowen (Feb 4, 2021)

I have only one personal memory of pre-Amtrak rail travel: It was August 1967, I was four years old, and my mother wanted to take me from our (then) new home of Houston back to visit friends and relatives in the St. Louis area. We traveled coach aboard the _Texas Eagle_. I remember an interminable delay, probably in Palestine where the Houston section waited to meet up with the San Antonio section (which carried the dining car). I mainly remember it because my mother wouldn't let me go to the restroom since the train was standing in the station (try explaining that to a four-year-old who desperately needs to go _now!_). After we resumed our trip she took me to dinner in the diner, and I had my first peek inside of a roomette and wondered why we couldn't have one of those nifty little rooms (try explaining First Class Fares to a four-year-old as well!)? After dinner in the diner I unsuccessfully tried to sleep in coach, finally curling up on the floor under my seat. In the morning my mother let me hang out the Dutch door as the Missouri countryside flew past. My next rail trip would not be until almost exactly 12 years later, aboard Amtrak's _Lone Star_ from Houston to Chicago (and then on to East Lansing via the old turboliner _Blue Water_) and back in July/August 1979...right before the Carter cuts.

While the Boeing 707 was the death knell for passenger rail travel as a system, it was the 727 which really drove in the nails. I hate to admit that, since that was the plane I had my first airliner ride on and is still one of my favorite jetliners, but it's true. It combined all of the speed and comfort of the 707 with almost all of the flexibility of the DC-3, thanks to its innovative triple-slotted flaps and pioneering use of an Auxiliary Power Unit and built in airstair. As long as jet service was, say, Chicago to Los Angeles the railroads could hope to compete...but when Kansas City to Albuquerque or Shreveport to Memphis acquired the same caliber of service, there was no real way for a private entity to hold its own.


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## PaTrainFan (Feb 4, 2021)

It doesn't matter what decade or train you are talking about, when you are a child riding any train is always a Golden Era.


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## railiner (Feb 4, 2021)

Ziv said:


> My first trip on a passenger train was probably around 1972 or 1973, right at the end of the Golden Age of Railroads in America. It was technically an Amtrak train but it still felt like a Great Northern train. My Dad and I were taking a trip from our home in Glasgow Montana to Seattle to see my Uncle Bobby. I remember the awe I felt seeing the smartly uniformed conductor welcoming us aboard like he knew my Dad or something. Looking back, my Dad was involved with UTU activity for Great Northern (he was a GN freight brakeman at the time) so even if they didn't know each other they probably recognized each other. I am not sure if it was this trip or something I had seen earlier, but I remember an engineer climbing up 6 or 7 ladder rungs to get into the locomotive, it was like a harbor pilot climbing up the side of a sailing ship. Then the conductor called "All Aboard!", picked up the step and stepped aboard the train and we gently set out through my home town.
> We went to our bedroom and it was like a palatial suite to me, albeit in miniature. The porter came by and introduced himself and it was a jolt to see a black person since we only had one black family in my home town. After he left my Dad said I was to call him Mister "Smith" (I have forgotten his name over the years) and NOT to call him boy. He was pretty adamant about it which kind of confused me but in retrospect I think black porters were new to the UTU at that time and some of the membership was not too happy about it. I don't think my Dad was a shop steward yet but he was probably getting grief from some of his friends about it. But Mr. Smith stopped by a little later with coffee for my Dad and a soda for me which was the height of luxury for a 10 year old kid. That porter was outstanding, every time I got a bit bored, he would pop by with a treat, or a heads up regarding a particularly scenic spot coming up or an invitation to see some part of the train I hadn't spotted yet.
> So my Dad and I settled in to the room and we named every spot going by that we knew from driving or hunting as we passed by Hinsdale, Saco, Malta, Chinook and Havre. He pointed out where Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid blew up a railcar back in 1899 trying to get into the mail car safe.
> We got to the Browning bridge before sunset and we saw a bit of Glacier Park but I don't remember more than a few minutes of sunlight before the park disappeared in the darkness as the sun set. I do remember sitting in the front of the dome car and watching the trees roll by and spotting one slightly startled moose look up at the locomotive and slowly trot off into the woods. The snow sheds seemed pretty cool too.
> ...


Great story, thanks for posting!
Getting to ride such trains in your youth is indeed fortunate, but having a parent working for the railroad is even better...


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## railiner (Feb 4, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> Interesting the similarities between the EMD E and F units to the Siemens units today. EMD or GM understood aerodynamics, The E unts could debut today and still look the part in the 21st century.


Agreed! Being a component company of General Motors at the time, EMD benefitted from all the synergy and resources that meant. GM's Art & Colour Section, later Design, headed by renowned automotive stylist, Harley Earl was tapped to help design the carbodies, and streamliner paint schemes for the RR clients.
My favorite 'E' was the E-5, custom built only for the CB&Q, featuring stainless steel sides, to match the Budd streamliner passenger cars. I also liked the later E-8's and '9's, with their side port holes, and stainless air intake grills.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 4, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> It doesn't matter what decade or train you are talking about, when you are a child riding any train is always a Golden Era.


Gosh... there's a lot of wisdom in your remarks... well said!


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## ehbowen (Feb 4, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> It doesn't matter what decade or train you are talking about, when you are a child riding any train is always a Golden Era.


My nephews and nieces still talk about our Big Family Amtrak Trip to Disneyland and back fifteen years ago.


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## WWW (Feb 4, 2021)

railiner said:


> Agreed! Being a component company of General Motors at the time, EMD benefitted from all the synergy and resources that meant. GM's Art & Colour Section, later Design, headed by renowned automotive stylist, Harley Earl was tapped to help design the carbodies, and streamliner paint schemes for the RR clients.
> My favorite 'E' was the E-5, custom built only for the CB&Q, featuring stainless steel sides, to match the Budd streamliner passenger cars. I also liked the later E-8's and '9's, with their side port holes, and stainless air intake grills.


How about this beauty - owned by the 261 folks:

Milw 32A – Friends of the 261


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## jis (Feb 4, 2021)

The only pre-Amtrak American passenger trains that I have ridden were the Senator and the Congressional on a Boston South Station - New York Penn Station - Washington Union Station and back trip back in 1965. Those trains were not terribly impressive at that point of their existence.

There were a few rides on B&M RDCs around the Northern suburbs of Boston too. We lived in Cambridge for the 1965-66 academic year plus three additional months.

We tried very hard to travel to Niagara Falls and back from Boston, but that turned out to be prohibitively expensive, so we fell back on Greyhound, which was actually a better experience than the Coach on the Senator. Railroads of the Northeast were in pretty sorry shape, and AFAIR Penn Station was in the process of being torn down and rebuilt as the subterranean rabbit's warren.

The next time I rode an American passenger train was in 1977, and that was LIRR, which on the Electric lines was actually quite good. But the diesel line trains were on their last legs, and remained that way for another ten or fifteen years. I could not afford Amtrak tickets on my meager Research Assistantship income for several years.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 4, 2021)

WWW said:


> How about this beauty - owned by the 261 folks:
> 
> Milw 32A – Friends of the 261
> 
> View attachment 20541


... And what are those beauties it's pulling along???


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 4, 2021)

If anyone has a time machine that can transport one to the past... please send it my way!


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## WWW (Feb 4, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> ... And what are those beauties it's pulling along???


On the front end is the 261 Milwaukee steam locomotive - - -
then the consist of mostly Milwaukee Road cars (note the prominent paint colors) - - -
nearing the end the Superdome and finally the Cedar Rapids - - -
Prior to having the M32A our trips were relegated to having a point to wye the train or at least the locomotive for the return trip.
On occasion we would contract with Twin City & Western people to tow the train back.
Now with M32A we have the flexibility to do round trips without the need of a wye or breaking the train apart.

Click on the LINK: Milw 32A – Friends of the 261
Check out the roster of engines and cars in the fleet - - -
Prior to the covid virus thing our cars were rented contracted all over the country for excursions and events - - -
The fun part of this was riding the cars down and back to Chicago (behind the Amtrak EB 7 & 8) to the drop off point for the client.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 4, 2021)

WWW said:


> On the front end is the 261 Milwaukee steam locomotive - - -
> then the consist of mostly Milwaukee Road cars (note the prominent paint colors) - - -
> nearing the end the Superdome and finally the Cedar Rapids - - -
> Prior to having the M32A our trips were relegated to having a point to wye the train or at least the locomotive for the return trip.
> ...


Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise!


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## railiner (Feb 4, 2021)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> To me, some of the most interesting consists existed during the transition years between heavyweight and streamline when you would see a mix of both on a train, often second tier or lower service. Without doing any research, I wonder if any heavyweights (likely bags) survived into Amtrak?


I don't believe Amtrak took ownership of any heavyweight passenger cars, but believe they did use some in the early years, from their 'host' railroads. The ones that stick out in my mind were some GM&O heavyweights used on some St. Lous/Chicago trains...


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## railiner (Feb 4, 2021)

Palmland said:


> For me, the golden age of passenger trains began post war with the introduction of the many war delayed streamliners such as the '48 Century and Broadway Ltd. It ended with the advent of the B707 that began regular service in 1958 - about the same time construction really ramped up on the Interstates.
> 
> I was fortunate to be a young boy during the later half of that period and got to experience rides on many trains in the east. Many great memories from those trips: Boarding the Naitonal Ltd in Wilmington, DE right after final exams (which may be the reason I never did very well on them) for our annual trip to Tennessee. It was highlighted by backing into Washington and soon after the rear door on our sleeper was opened to a somewhat exotic bright red shiny Frisco sleeper, a MP sleeper bound for the mysterious southwest. Then opening the door to the hushed and refined atmosphere in the classic observation car on the rear (ex NYC) that required a full sprint to grab the seat facing the rear window. The awe inspiring Cincinnati Union Terminal followed the nest morning was follwed by a leisurely all day ride on the Pan American with the world's best turkey sandwiches (turkey cooked on board of course) as the train accelerated from Louisville to attack the grade on Muldraugh's Hill.
> 
> ...


Lots of great rides there, thanks for posting! Of the routes you mentioned, one that eluded me was the Texas Zephyr route...


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## railiner (Feb 4, 2021)

jis said:


> The only pre-Amtrak American passenger trains that I have ridden were the Senator and the Congressional on a Boston South Station - New York Penn Station - Washington Union Station and back trip back in 1965. Those trains were not terribly impressive at that point of their existence.
> 
> There were a few rides on B&M RDCs around the Northern suburbs of Boston too. We lived in Cambridge for the 1965-66 academic year plus three additional months.
> 
> ...


The Senator and Congressional when they were newly re-equipped with streamlined cars in 1952, were in stark contrast to the typical PRR 'corridor' trains of the time, carrying mostly Tuscan red P-70 coaches. They really stood out with their matched stainless steel consists. Most of the coaches featured a 14 seat 'smoking lounge' at one end. The trains had blunt end parlor observation cars, full service diners, tavern lounge coffee shop, and even drawing room parlor cars. They also had a mobile phone service. The Afternoon Congressional was the fastest New York/Washington train (3:35), until the Metroliner's arrived. 
The trains did degrade considerably, in the Penn Central era. 





The Congressionals - December, 1952 - Streamliner Schedules


December 1952 timetable for the Congressionals passenger trains at Streamliner Schedules.



www.streamlinerschedules.com









__





The Senator - April, 1955 - Streamliner Schedules


April 1955 timetable for The Senator passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.



www.streamlinerschedules.com


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 4, 2021)

railiner said:


> The Senator and Congressional when they were newly re-equipped with streamlined cars in 1952, were in stark contrast to the typical PRR 'corridor' trains of the time, carrying mostly Tuscan red P-70 coaches. They really stood out with their matched stainless steel consists. Most of the coaches featured a 14 seat 'smoking lounge' at one end. The trains had blunt end parlor observation cars, full service diners, tavern lounge coffee shop, and even drawing room parlor cars. They also had a mobile phone service. The Afternoon Congressional was the fastest New York/Washington train (3:35), until the Metroliner's arrived.
> The trains did degrade considerably, in the Penn Central era.
> 
> 
> ...


Still remember when the " Hot" Metroliners arrived! ( I lived in Washington for a long time)I actually preferred riding on the NEC in them over any other Type of Car, (especially once Amtrak started), including Acela later on!!


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## Railspike (Feb 5, 2021)

My initial train ride commenced in the early-mid 50s from Dallas to St. Louis on the MKT/Frisco Texas Special to see both sets of my grandparents in St. Louis. We used to catch the Texas Special at the suburban University Park station rather than downtown Dallas' Union Station for convenience. You could set your watch by that train. The equipment and service were excellent. It was one of the "crack" trains of the Southwest in its day. We got a bedroom or roomettes depending on availability.

The food was also excellent. I used to get stares from the wait staff in the diner when at such a young age I always ordered their famous onion soup. Delicious! However, dinner had to wait until after the car switch at Denison (approx 8 PM). I would stand at the rear of the observation car and watch and wave at the switching crew. The very car I stood in is shown below. It was sold when the train was dropped and I think it ended up in Mexico.

In the morning it was always a treat to see if the T&P/MoPac Texas Eagle's timing would allow for a race on their parallel track heading into St. Louis. I witnessed a race a few times while having breakfast in the diner prior to our arrival in St. Louis. 

At some point, my Dad decided we should take the Texas Eagle to St. Louis from Dallas. We did and never switched back to the TS because of the Eagle's dome car. For a kid to sit in the front seat of the dome (or any seat in the dome for that matter) and watch the mars light and passing green-to-red signals at night was mesmerizing.
The morning also brought a ride right along the banks of the Mississippi River as we approached St. Louis. The trip in reverse from St. Louis to Dallas was just as fun.

Still riding trains after all these years. Amtrak, even with all of its financial issues, could do so much better. They could start by putting a person or two who actually ride trains on their Board. Never happen. Too much politics.


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## jiml (Feb 5, 2021)

Railspike said:


> My initial train ride commenced in the early-mid 50s from Dallas to St. Louis on the MKT/Frisco Texas Special to see both sets of my grandparents in St. Louis. We used to catch the Texas Special at the suburban University Park station rather than downtown Dallas' Union Station for convenience. You could set your watch by that train. The equipment and service were excellent. It was one of the "crack" trains of the Southwest in its day. We got a bedroom or roomettes depending on availability.
> 
> The food was also excellent. I used to get stares from the wait staff in the diner when at such a young age I always ordered their famous onion soup. Delicious! However, dinner had to wait until after the car switch at Denison (approx 8 PM). I would stand at the rear of the observation car and watch and wave at the switching crew. The very car I stood in is shown below. It was sold when the train was dropped and I think it ended up in Mexico.
> 
> ...


I've always thought the Frisco was one of the railroads that never received enough attention.


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## toddinde (Feb 5, 2021)

My pre-Amtrak rides were on the Milwaukee Road and the Chicago & North Western between Milwaukee and Chicago with one exception. My dad took me on the last pre-Amtrak run from Milwaukee to Port Washington on the C&NW’s Shoreline subdivision. By that time, the service only ran on Sundays and holidays which seems kind of ridiculous, but that was the only train on the route at the end. I rode all the major non-Amtrak’s; the Southern Crescent, Rio Grande Zephyr, and Quad Cities Rocket, and sampled the dining cars on all three. I also rode Amtrak’s City of San Francisco in the summer of ‘71, and the Super Chief in the summer of ‘72, both of which were pretty much railroad operated although the Super Chief was pure Santa Fe with warbonnet Fs, but the City was definitely rainbow. It had the beautiful SP home built dome lounge cars, and in Denver, the separate Denver Zephyr cars were added including the Chuck Wagon Dome Lounge. Nice trips. Thanks Dad.


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## railiner (Feb 5, 2021)

jiml said:


> I've always thought the Frisco was one of the railroads that never received enough attention.


Agreed...it was another one of those that eluded me in the final pre-Amtrak years. It's route structure was somewhat unique, in that it ran on both sides of the traditional US East/West "gateways" of Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis, and New Orleans. The other one that did similar, was the Wabash. Some roads slipped between the major 'gateways' at places like Peoria or Vicksburg on branch lines.
When the Burlington Northern acquired the Frisco, it became the only US railroad whose routes entered both the west coast states (CA, OR, WA, [&BC]); and an east coast state (FL). 
The Frisco even ran a thru train between Kansas City and Pensacola, at one time. I don't believe the Wabash ever ran a thru train from Omaha all the way to Detroit (or Buffalo). You would have had to change in at least, St. Louis...


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## Palmland (Feb 5, 2021)

Railspike said:


> My initial train ride commenced in the early-mid 50s from Dallas to St. Louis on the MKT/Frisco Texas Special to see both sets of my grandparents in St. Louis. We used to catch the Texas Special at the suburban University Park station rather than downtown Dallas' Union Station for convenience. You could set your watch by that train. The equipment and service were excellent. It was one of the "crack" trains of the Southwest in its day. We got a bedroom or roomettes depending on availability.


What a great photo. I do wish I had a chance to ride the Frisco. Even towards the end I think they had an effort to maintain decent service by a limited upgrade of daytime service with the 'Oklahoman' between St. Louis and Oklahoma City and the 'Southland' between Kansas City and Memphis/Birmingham. Both had a 'Chair-Lounge-Buffet car'. They also did some creative scheduling with having all four trains meet about the same time in Springfield, MO to improve connectivity - something Amtrak doesn't fully understand. I think the deteriorating condition of the M-K-T was a factor on the decline of the TS.


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## Palmland (Feb 5, 2021)

railiner said:


> Lots of great rides there, thanks for posting! Of the routes you mentioned, one that eluded me was the Texas Zephyr route...


I was very fortunate as my ride was at the very end in 1967. The Texas Zephyr had already been discontinued but the night train from Denver was upgraded from all coach with a sleeper and the observation/cafe. Probably a deal with the ICC that permitted the end of the TZ. The line was freight only a couple months later.


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## railiner (Feb 5, 2021)

Palmland said:


> I was very fortunate as my ride was at the very end in 1967. The Texas Zephyr had already been discontinued but the night train from Denver was upgraded from all coach with a sleeper and the observation/cafe. Probably a deal with the ICC that permitted the end of the TZ. The line was freight only a couple months later.
> 
> View attachment 20550


I even missed my chance to ride over the Joint Line, on that last Santa Fe local that ran between Denver and La Junta...


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## MilwaukeeRoadLover (Feb 5, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> It doesn't matter what decade or train you are talking about, when you are a child riding any train is always a Golden Era.


Child or first time train fan


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 5, 2021)

MilwaukeeRoadLover said:


> Child or first time train fan


Hi MilwaukeeRoadLover! Me too! Me too! Just loved riding the Milwaukee Road... can still smell the varnish of the wood and soft comfortable seats as it guided out of the Milwaukee station in the early 60's. Will always be in love with those beautiful passenger trains! 

BTW proud Shorewood HS graduate... class of '65!


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## WWW (Feb 5, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Hi MilwaukeeRoadLover! Me too! Me too! Just loved riding the Milwaukee Road... can still smell the varnish of the wood and soft comfortable seats as it guided out of the Milwaukee station in the early 60's. Will always be in love with those beautiful passenger trains!
> 
> BTW proud Shorewood HS graduate... class of '65!
> View attachment 20552
> ...


In the first (top) photo what station was that ?
The black shed roof looks like it would be Minneapolis - but the clock tower in the background is not correct -
and the trains departing the Minneapolis station did not turn left (they turn to the right) and 5 blocks later
after leaving the depot crossing the Washington Avenue viaduct taking the short-line route to St. Paul's Union Depot.
The Milwaukee depot in Minneapolis was used by the Milwaukee Road - Soo Line - and the Rock Island RR
The Minneapolis Milwaukee depot has been converted into a skating rink under the black shed roof - the clock tower is still there. 

More History of the Minneapolis Milwaukee depot:
Minneapolis station (Milwaukee Road) - Wikipedia


In the second photo the fabulous skytop observation car - there were only 4 built and only -1- runs the rails today - the
Cedar Rapids owned by the 261 - the other mates - the Priest Rapids - Dell Rapids and Coon Rapids are history -
Reference LINK:

Where are the Skytops? (trainweb.org) 

Very interesting history behind the Milwaukee Road Skytop and Beaver Tail observation cars

Egads this internet thing is intoxicating


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 5, 2021)

railiner said:


> The Senator and Congressional when they were newly re-equipped with streamlined cars in 1952, were in stark contrast to the typical PRR 'corridor' trains of the time, carrying mostly Tuscan red P-70 coaches. They really stood out with their matched stainless steel consists. Most of the coaches featured a 14 seat 'smoking lounge' at one end. The trains had blunt end parlor observation cars, full service diners, tavern lounge coffee shop, and even drawing room parlor cars. They also had a mobile phone service. The Afternoon Congressional was the fastest New York/Washington train (3:35), until the Metroliner's arrived.
> The trains did degrade considerably, in the Penn Central era.
> 
> 
> ...



On The Senator, was the Coffee Shop Tavern Car the same as the Coffee Shop Car? I am thinking that it was and it's just a different name in the listings.


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 5, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Still remember when the " Hot" Metroliners arrived!



I had a roundtrip on the Metroliners once between New Carrollton and New York. I remember that the train was so fast--scenery was whipping by--and the leg room in coach was great. Seats were comfortable as well. We got a bite to eat in the morning on the way to New York because we had nothing for breakfast before we left for the station.. (It was a very early train.) 

I also remember the Conductor or the Trainman telling us as we approached New Carrollton to be ready to get off the train quickly. The station stop would be very short.


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## Trogdor (Feb 5, 2021)

WWW said:


> In the first (top) photo what station was that ?
> The black shed roof looks like it would be Minneapolis - but the clock tower in the background is not correct -
> and the trains departing the Minneapolis station did not turn left (they turn to the right) and 5 blocks later
> after leaving the depot crossing the Washington Avenue viaduct taking the short-line route to St. Paul's Union Depot.



First picture is the old Milwaukee (WI) station, which was a couple of blocks north of the current Milwaukee Intermodal Station.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 5, 2021)

WWW said:


> In the first (top) photo what station was that ?
> The black shed roof looks like it would be Minneapolis - but the clock tower in the background is not correct -
> and the trains departing the Minneapolis station did not turn left (they turn to the right) and 5 blocks later
> after leaving the depot crossing the Washington Avenue viaduct taking the short-line route to St. Paul's Union Depot.
> ...



Thank you for your response... authenticity is important. 

So I went back to research the building underneath that clock tower... and looked at different pics of it... it does seem to be the Milwaukee Road Station in Milwaukee which may have changed in appearance as modifications were made. I may be wrong and I'm always open to more information...

Top picture with inset shows station pictured is indeed in Milwaukee. Historical records also seem to pictorially verify this to be the station. I've reposted the picture in question on the bottom for view comparisons.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 5, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> I had a roundtrip on the Metroliners once between New Carrollton and New York. I remember that the train was so fast--scenery was whipping by--and the leg room in coach was great. Seats were comfortable as well. We got a bite to eat in the morning on the way to New York because we had nothing for breakfast before we left for the station.. (It was a very early train.)
> 
> I also remember the Conductor or the Trainman telling us as we approached New Carrollton to be ready to get off the train quickly. The station stop would be very short.


I rode a Metroliner down to Baltimore in 1969 to visit my grandparents. They seemed so futuristic, but the interiors were pretty much identical to today's Amfleets. I would occasionally ride one down to Wilmington on one of my after-school joyrides. One time, the engineer even let me ride in the cab and look over his shoulder. It was kind of cool seeing the speed readout hit 110 mph. They had a digital readout, but I'm not sure whether it was Nixie tubes or a real honest to goodness LED digital readout. This was about 1970 or so.


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## jis (Feb 5, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> They had a digital readout, but I'm not sure whether it was Nixie tubes or a real honest to goodness LED digital readout. This was about 1970 or so.


It was probably a tad early for LED digital readout application in a critical component like the Speedometer, in a traditionally hidebound railroad industry, considering that the first practical LED digital display, the HP Model 5082-7000 Numeric Indicator, became available in February of 1969.


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## railiner (Feb 5, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> On The Senator, was the Coffee Shop Tavern Car the same as the Coffee Shop Car? I am thinking that it was and it's just a different name in the listings.


Same car...in the PRR timetables in the 1953 ORG, they called them "Coffee Shop Tavern"...


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## railiner (Feb 5, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I rode a Metroliner down to Baltimore in 1969 to visit my grandparents. They seemed so futuristic, but the interiors were pretty much identical to today's Amfleets. I would occasionally ride one down to Wilmington on one of my after-school joyrides. One time, the engineer even let me ride in the cab and look over his shoulder. It was kind of cool seeing the speed readout hit 110 mph. They had a digital readout, but I'm not sure whether it was Nixie tubes or a real honest to goodness LED digital readout. This was about 1970 or so.


The cab in the Metroliner's, was about the tiniest one I can recall...even made subway car cabs look roomy in comparison.
As for the digital speedometer...could it have been a vacuum fluorescent display?


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## iliketrains (Feb 6, 2021)

The days when African-Americans had to sit in segregated cars and they could only work as servants on the trains. Reminiscent of awful times in this country for many people.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 6, 2021)

Very important issue which continues to say that America still has a long way to go. And should be discussed on this forum. 

There was indeed much segregation on the trains, busses, boats, housing... and many places throughout the country. The shrines and museums dedicated to remembering the past are not enough to move us as a country to the place we need to be. 

And we still have a long way to go to be a nation that unites all its people with equal rights and equal justice.  

This Segregated Railway Car Offers a Visceral Reminder of the Jim Crow Era... Subtle and not-so-subtle reminders of a time when local and state laws forced racial segregation. See Smithsonian and other documentations below:











This Segregated Railway Car Offers a Visceral Reminder of the Jim Crow Era


Subtle and not-so-subtle reminders of a time when local and state laws forced racial segration




www.smithsonianmag.com





That 'Trains Magazine' misspelled 'segregation' is itself disturbing:





__





When did segragation end in passenger railroads? - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms


Trains magazine offers railroad news, railroad industry insight, commentary on today's freight railroads, passenger service (Amtrak), locomotive technology, railroad preservation and history, railfan opportunities (tourist railroads, fan trips), and great railroad photography.



cs.trains.com









__





"No Heat, No Water . . . and a Large Sign Reading 'Colored'": Inequality in "Separate but Equal" Railroad Accommodations






historymatters.gmu.edu


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 6, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Very important issue which continues to say that America still has a long way to go. And should be discussed on this forum.
> 
> There was indeed much segregation on the trains, busses, boats, housing... and many places throughout the country. The shrines and museums dedicated to remembering the past are not enough to move us as a country to the place we need to be.
> 
> ...


When I was riding on the Southern back in the '50s, we were in a 10×6 Sleeper that was like New (the Attendant was Black) with a spiffy Dinner( the Cooks were Black) that was for "Whites only".

The so called " Colored Car" was a really dowdy Heavyweight Coach that was probably from the 1920s, or Before!

"Seperate but Equal" was one of those Big Lies that will Live in Infamy!


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 6, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> When I was riding on the Southern back in the '50s, we were in a 10×6 Sleeper that was like New (the Attendant was Black) with a spiffy Dinner( the Cooks were Black) that was for "Whites only".
> 
> The so called " Colored Car" was a really dowdy Heavyweight Coach that was probably from the 1920s, or Before!
> 
> "Seperate but Equal" was one of those Big Lies that will Live in Infamy!


Wow... what vivid memories you have... very amazing in a very sad way. Let us collect our energies to move America in the direction it needs to go - in recognizing the importance of each individual. And in that is the blessing from above.


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## Steve4031 (Feb 6, 2021)

There is a segregated railroad car in the African American museum in Washington DC. It was a streamlined coach with a divider in the middle. I think some of these cars lasted into the 70s. I walked through cars with those types of dividers on the Broadway Limited in 1978. Obviously there was no segregation and the seating on both sides was the same. 

The thing that caused me to remember his car was that I was walking the train looking at the different types of cars in the consist. As I walked through there were several African American guys with a boom box playing Bad Girls by Donna Summers. This was and is one of my favorite songs. Every time I it I remember that train ride.


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## hlcteacher (Feb 7, 2021)

iliketrains said:


> The days when African-Americans had to sit in segregated cars and they could only work as servants on the trains. Reminiscent of awful times in this country for many people.


thank you for the recognition and the reminder, it was such a "golden age" for many


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## jis (Feb 7, 2021)

When we visited the US for a year back in the early/mid '60s, our hosts politely suggested to us that traveling down to Washington DC was fine, but any further south may not be that pleasant an experience. So we did spend several days at Washington DC, but the southmost we went was to the Arlington National Cemetery.

The next time I traveled south of Washington DC was in 1978 to visit a friend at Clemson University in SC. Traveled by Greyhound since I could not afford Amtrak in any form back then.


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## jpakala (Feb 7, 2021)

My friend traveled between the 1940s and 1970s and thankfully didn't experience Jim Crow. States such as CO, MA, and MT come to mind as where he went. Social strata are the Jim Crow in many countries, such as trains with three classes but their own clienteles.


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## jis (Feb 7, 2021)

jpakala said:


> My friend traveled between the 1940s and 1970s and thankfully didn't experience Jim Crow. States such as CO, MA, and MT come to mind as where he went. Social strata are the Jim Crow in many countries, such as trains with three classes but their own clienteles.


Yeah. Jim Crow was pretty state specific stuff. In the early '60s we traveled in all of New England, New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, DC and extreme north Virginia adjoining DC and had no problems at all.

After 1980 I have traveled all 50 states with no problem, and now live in Florida where strangely half the people insist I am white! Since I am pretty blind to such things unless I am forced to recognize such by actions of others, I just let things roll as they come, and work through the system interstitially (that is - through the cracks) if that is what it takes.


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## goes2jack (Feb 7, 2021)

Were these sometimes be referred to as a partitioned coach?


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## WWW (Feb 7, 2021)

July of '61 US Army Military Police training at Fort Gordon GA -
A hundred years after the Civil War -
Go outside the confines of the Fort and it was a white/black world at Augusta GA -
What little free time was spent on the Fort grounds -
Not worth the time to go to town for a drink entertainment following arcane rules what
side of the street to be on - what drinking fountain to use - what rest room permitted -
the list goes on - discussion briefings at the Fort about where what to do and avoid while
visiting Augusta -
YES July of '61 -

Don't know much about the area except for the Masters Golf Tournament -

And a blessing that my MP Training was assigned to a Ordinance Security Depot in Germany -
wasn't assigned to a MP Cop unit breaking up drunk fights and sorting out unruly things.
Was great to have duty escorting Ordinance by TRAIN - air - truck throughout West Germany.


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## Willbridge (Feb 7, 2021)

railiner said:


> Very much enjoyed your story, too. Thanks for posting!
> The E-L Lake Cities was another one of the trains I managed to get in pre Amtrak, although it ended the year before...


I rode the _Lake Cities _from Marion Union Station to Hoboken in May 1969. It was the nicest train that I rode in the Eastern Region.


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## Willbridge (Feb 7, 2021)

railiner said:


> I don't believe Amtrak took ownership of any heavyweight passenger cars, but believe they did use some in the early years, from their 'host' railroads. The ones that stick out in my mind were some GM&O heavyweights used on some St. Louis/Chicago trains...


In September 1967 the GM&O _Midnight Special _had a heavyweight sleeper.

And an answer to whether Amtrak operated trains with heavyweight cars - the Valpo Commuter.


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## railiner (Feb 7, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> And an answer to whether Amtrak operated trains with heavyweight cars - the Valpo Commuter.


But weren't those PRR P-70's used by Penn Central and Conrail, before Amtrak took over in 1979?
The wiki article shows these being used by Amtrak...








Calumet (train) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Willbridge (Feb 7, 2021)

WWW said:


> July of '61 US Army Military Police training at Fort Gordon GA -
> A hundred years after the Civil War -
> Go outside the confines of the Fort and it was a white/black world at Augusta GA -
> What little free time was spent on the Fort grounds -
> ...


Did you have a Railway MP brassard? One thing I missed doing in the Army was to get my picture taken with a Train Interpreter brassard. The other thing I missed was the April 1971 end of the four east-west trains serving my home town of Portland. I was in Berlin trying to explain the insanity going on in the States to our German railway staff.






Still from Allied Artists _Stop Train 349 - Verspätung in Marienborn._


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## Willbridge (Feb 7, 2021)

railiner said:


> But weren't those PRR P-70's used by Penn Central and Conrail, before Amtrak took over in 1979?
> The wiki article shows these being used by Amtrak...
> 
> 
> ...


You're right. In 1976 Valparaiso was an experimental stop for the _Broadway Limited_ but the commuter trains were still in PC's hands.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 7, 2021)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> To me, some of the most interesting consists existed during the transition years between heavyweight and streamline when you would see a mix of both on a train, often second tier or lower service. Without doing any research, I wonder if any heavyweights (likely bags) survived into Amtrak?


I remember riding home from New York to Philadelphia at the end of August, 1972. I took the Crescent, which, of course, was not an Amtrak train at the time, except that Amtrak ran it from New York to Washington. Amtrak also added a few of its own cars for the local New York - Washington business. The car I was stuck in was an old PRR P-70 that had been rehabbed a bit and painted that ugly Penn Central green. The tracks had already been upgraded in New Jersey for the initial Metroliner service, and I think the trains would go 100 mph at times. Well, maybe we weren't going that fast, but we were really rattling around in that P-70, it didn't seem like it had been built for comfortable running at the speeds we were making. But I did get home safely, so I guess I shouldn't complain.


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## Willbridge (Feb 8, 2021)

I rode in a heavyweight PRR coach with walkover seats from Indianapolis to Columbus in 1969 on either the _Penn Texas _or the _Spirit of St. Louis_. It was decorated with posters from the New Jersey commuter services and was carrying through passengers from St. Louis. On my weekend pass back to Fort Benjamin Harrison I rode an unnamed PC train that had one passenger car, a nice lightweight ex-NYC coach with reclining seats. If I hadn't already guessed it that trip would have convinced me that PC was doomed.

In May 1969 I rode the _Morning Congressional _NYC to DC and I think there were heavies and lights in the train. There also were passengers riding without tickets. The conductor never made it all the way through to lift tickets. At Philadelphia the empty Turbotrain lapped us. It had been canceled due to a mechanical failure.


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## frequentflyer (Feb 8, 2021)

What Was the weigh of the heavyweight cars? What the reason of making them so heavy?


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## WWW (Feb 8, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Did you have a Railway MP brassard? One thing I missed doing in the Army was to get my picture taken with a Train Interpreter brassard. The other thing I missed was the April 1971 end of the four east-west trains serving my home town of Portland. I was in Berlin trying to explain the insanity going on in the States to our German railway staff.
> 
> View attachment 20595
> 
> ...


No fancy dress (white hat) uniforms - just fatigues.

Basically would pick up ship movements at the port of Bremerhaven - air at Ramstein AFB and move 
the ordinance to where ever it was destined for. Once picked up and off of the rail head or AFB
we would escort it by multi-wheeled (18 wheels) vehicle to its assignment. We drove jeeps with
flashing blue lights and ta-dee ta-dee sirens in a convoy of trucks equipment including radio 
communications and commissary vehicles - exciting - exhilarating and exhausting. There was
the boring side of this storing the ordinance in our bunkered facility on the French border until
such time as it was needed - service replacement whatever. Every movement involved moving
the ordinance up to the Iron Curtin border of East Germany.

Berlin was OFF-LIMITS due to security clearance and nature of the ordinance !

Noticed the patch on the MP bassard - 7th Army USAER - ours was the COMZ patch images:


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## WWW (Feb 8, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> What Was the weigh of the heavyweight cars? What the reason of making them so heavy?


Perhaps it was the length and if you noticed the 3 wheel trucks on both ends of the car supporting that weight (steel).
Aluminum and composite material are lighter needing only the 2 wheel trucks and were a more recent development.

One of the heaviest weight cars was the Milwaukee Superdome owned by the 261 org.
Super Dome – Friends of the 261 
Weighing in at 104 tons
Even on the roughest of tracks this car rides like a smooth limo !


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## Willbridge (Feb 8, 2021)

To add to the "Golden Age" list -- I agree that the Golden Age was almost any time other than 1968-71 when after most postal contracts ended there was a stampede of train-off applications.

My list (not including excursion trains / interurbans / steamers/ buses / streetcars and Portland<>Vancouver, WA multiple trips).

* 1950's - Portland-Seattle round-trip on the Astra-Dome UP train.
Portland > The Dalles on the Domeliner _City of Portland _with lunch in the Vista-Dome diner.

* 1960 - SP _Cascade _Portland to Oakland, SP _Shasta Daylight _Oakland to Portland. On a business trip with my dad. Saw Charles de Gaulle in a ticker tape parade on Montgomery Street. Met characters straight out of Dashiell Hammett. Choice of four daily newspapers in the City.

* 1960's - Portland-Seattle pool trains of all three companies, various destinations. Last trip was for Christmas leave from Fort Lewis (Tacoma) to Portland in 1968.

* 1964 - San Francisco<>Redwood City on SP Commute (with an RPO!).

* 1964 - Oakland > Portland on _Cascade._

* 1966 - Portland > Seattle > Spokane > Paradise > Spokane > Hinkle > Portland. Used a UP-Milwaukee Road Circle ticket and the NP Youth Fare on the _Mainstreeter.

* _1966-67 - misc. trips Portland <> Salem on SP trains.

* 1967 - Oakland > Portland on _Cascade._

* 1967 - Portland > Minneapolis > Chicago > St. Louis > Chicago > Gary > Chicago > St. Paul > Hawley > Winnipeg >Edmonton > Vancouver, BC > Seattle > Portland all at the regular price for a direct Portland <> St. Louis trip, plus a coach seat reservation charge on the _North Coast Limited. _Other name trains: _Morning Zephyr _(fastest scheduled train in the U.S.), _Green Diamond, Abraham Lincoln, Pioneer, Mainstreeter, Super Continental, Afternoon International._

* 1968 - Seattle to Vancouver, BC on _Morning International _in Parlor Car.

* 1968 - Los Angeles > Martinez on the _San Joaquin Daylight, Cascade _Martinez to Portland. And does riding the deadhead _Super Chief/El Capitan _from the yard to LAUPT count? Or the NWP's RDC from the yard to the Eureka station?

* 1969 - Weekend round-trips from the Fort Ord flag stop into the City on the _Del Monte. _Never saw regular Bing Crosby, but got to know Eddie Elkins, #1 seniority lounge car attendant on the SP. And, yes, there was a real flag to wave.

* 1969 - Salinas > San Francisco in the Parlor Car on the _Coast Daylight.

* _1969 - South Bend to Chicago on the South Shore, Chicago back to Indianapolis on the _James Whitcomb Riley._

* 1969 - Indianapolis - Columbus as described previously.

* 1969 - Indianapolis > Marion (PC - Big Four)

* 1969 - Marion > Hoboken (EL) as described previously.

* 1969 - New York City > Washington, DC > Newark > Red Bank > New York City.

* 1969 - New York City - Croton-Harmon.

* 1969 - New York City - New Brunswick, NJ.

Overseas June 1969 - August 1971. Name trains that I recall: _Ile de France, Rheingold, Harwich Boat Train, Johann Strauss, Vienna-Oostende Express, Paris-Copenhagen Express, East-West Express, Metropolitano. _Unnamed RENFE, SNCF, SNCB, DB, Dutch and Danish trains. Hey! _Somebody _had to fight the Vietnam War over there.

I missed a lot of last runs but as the news clippings arrived I remembered what my father said: "There are railfans who'd rather be able to say they were on a last run than to do something to save and improve a useful service." So I set out to learn as much about useful service from the Europeans as I could.



Seen at Croton-Harmon in 1969.


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## Willbridge (Feb 8, 2021)

WWW said:


> No fancy dress (white hat) uniforms - just fatigues.
> 
> Basically would pick up ship movements at the port of Bremerhaven - air at Ramstein AFB and move
> the ordinance to where ever it was destined for. Once picked up and off of the rail head or AFB
> ...


You guys must have been popular on the autobahns! Or did you move in off hours?

The patch worn by the MP's from Berlin was the only one in the U.S. Army with the name of a city on it.

It was extra-territorial, but the Golden Age of U.S. military trains in Europe was in the period 1948-1955 or so, before and after the Blockade when the Army trains went from Paris to Berlin and Vienna. Reservations were handled just as in the U.S. back then with car diagrams and names penciled in. None of our passengers dressed as well as Robert Ryan and Merle Oberon in _Berlin Express _(1948), which had more of the Paris > Frankfurt train. Likely not worth the trouble to film in the Soviet Zone.


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## Willbridge (Feb 8, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> What Was the weigh of the heavyweight cars? What the reason of making them so heavy?


It was the riveted, "battleship" steel cars that replaced the wooden cars. There's a good lay person's description in a new DVD titled "Pullman - America's Hotel on Wheels" from Classic Trains. Those cars rode smoothly at 40 to 60 mph, better than some lightweight cars (as described above) in that speed range on rough track.

In 1965 there were 2,398 heavyweight coaches and coach combinations on US Class I railroads, not counting suburban cars. I don't seem to have weights except for non-standard size cars. Most cars then and later were 85 feet in length. Shorter lengths were used for mail and package express cars to compensate for heavy loads.


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## railiner (Feb 8, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> What Was the weigh of the heavyweight cars? What the reason of making them so heavy?


Here are some explanations of the differences...






Please define between lightweight and heavyweight passenger cars. - Model Railroader Magazine - Model Railroading, Model Trains, Reviews, Track Plans, and Forums


Model Railroader is the world's largest magazine on model trains and model railroad layouts. We feature beginner and advanced help on all model railroading scales, including layout track plans, model railroad product reviews, model train news, and model railroad forums.



cs.trains.com




.






Heavyweight vs Lightweight and Six vs Four wheels - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms


Trains magazine offers railroad news, railroad industry insight, commentary on today's freight railroads, passenger service (Amtrak), locomotive technology, railroad preservation and history, railfan opportunities (tourist railroads, fan trips), and great railroad photography.



cs.trains.com


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## railiner (Feb 8, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I remember riding home from New York to Philadelphia at the end of August, 1972. I took the Crescent, which, of course, was not an Amtrak train at the time, except that Amtrak ran it from New York to Washington. Amtrak also added a few of its own cars for the local New York - Washington business. The car I was stuck in was an old PRR P-70 that had been rehabbed a bit and painted that ugly Penn Central green. The tracks had already been upgraded in New Jersey for the initial Metroliner service, and I think the trains would go 100 mph at times. Well, maybe we weren't going that fast, but we were really rattling around in that P-70, it didn't seem like it had been built for comfortable running at the speeds we were making. But I did get home safely, so I guess I shouldn't complain.


As I stated in my earlier post, Amtrak sometimes "borrowed" cars from their host roads, but did not actually own heavyweight passenger cars. Especially in the Northeast Corridor, the PRR, PC, Conrail, and Amtrak would often "borrow" from each other cars to meet demands...a practice that continues even to this day.
Amtrak will lease entire trains from MARC, or NJT, or SEPTA to run Thanksgiving holiday 'extras'. And in the past, if a car on a Corridor train was bad ordered at Sunnyside at the last minute, they might just grab anything available to replace it...


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## jis (Feb 8, 2021)

railiner said:


> Here are some explanations of the differences...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are really useful references. Thanks!


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## toddinde (Feb 8, 2021)

WWW said:


> In the first (top) photo what station was that ?
> The black shed roof looks like it would be Minneapolis - but the clock tower in the background is not correct -
> and the trains departing the Minneapolis station did not turn left (they turn to the right) and 5 blocks later
> after leaving the depot crossing the Washington Avenue viaduct taking the short-line route to St. Paul's Union Depot.
> ...


That’s a model of the Milwaukee Road’s Milwaukee station on Everett Street.


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## jpakala (Feb 8, 2021)

False information about railroads abounds, such as the common idea that they failed to realize they were in the transportation business not the RR business, but huge factors contributing to their decline were: 1) they paid taxes on stations, yards, and rights of way, from being the main supporter of many counties & their schools to exorbitant taxes on big city terminals, whereas air, road & water transportation had both "terminals & routes" paid for and maintained by the government, such as the FAA's 70,000 employees and the Army Corps of Engineers dredging, port & locks maintenancem etc.; 2) beginning when they did, RRs were saddled with a seniority tradition that led to promotion apart from competence for an administrative job; 3) partly owing to RR power, , jockeying, treatment of folk, etc. they came to have uniqueness such as ICC rules, RR retirement system, interline obstacles, archaisms, etc.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 8, 2021)

jpakala said:


> RRs were saddled with a seniority tradition that led to promotion apart from competence for an administrative job;


What makes you think that's unique to railroads?


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## WWW (Feb 8, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> What makes you think that's unique to railroads?


The Peter Principle it is ALIVE and well - what a way to run a railroad !


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## Willbridge (Feb 9, 2021)

WWW said:


> The Peter Principle it is ALIVE and well - what a way to run a railroad !


Before the Peter Principle, my dad used to say "there are two kinds of railroad managers, those who want to run trains and those who don't." It took me a while when I was a kid to figure out what the latter group was (not) doing.


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## bms (Feb 9, 2021)

WWW said:


> The Peter Principle it is ALIVE and well - what a way to run a railroad !



The Peter Principle assumes all the managers at least once were good at something! That probably was only true at half the companies I've worked for!


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## Steve4031 (Feb 9, 2021)

The Peter Principal is alive and well in education too. Some of my past administrators were great at telling us how we should be teaching challenging students, not understanding that they were asking some students to do things that they did not have the prerequisite skills. My braver, veteran colleagues handled this practice by asking the administrator to come in to their class and model the lesson. Usually the suggestions went away as well as the administrator.


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## WWW (Feb 9, 2021)

A close resemblance to the "DILBERT" cartoon in many newspapers - although nothing about running a railroad off its rails !


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## MilwaukeeRoadLover (Feb 12, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Thank you for your response... authenticity is important.
> 
> So I went back to research the building underneath that clock tower... and looked at different pics of it... it does seem to be the Milwaukee Road Station in Milwaukee which may have changed in appearance as modifications were made. I may be wrong and I'm always open to more information...
> 
> ...


Yes, that was definitely Milwaukee's Everret Street Station (aka Union Depot). I only saw this from afar briefly before it was torn before it was torn down. Not far from the North Shore Line's station and about a mile west of the Lakefront Depot...another gem. All later replaced by the hideous Intermodal.


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## The Commissioner (Feb 13, 2021)

I have fond memories of riding the SAL and then SCL Silver Meteor from Newark down to south Florida. Early in the trip, everyone on the train would be invited to the dining car for complimentary fresh squeezed orange juice. Because we had coach seats most of the time, I'd go back to the observation car and read the copy of the Official Railway Guide they kept there and leaf through the pages looking at all the other trains in America. Also fun was walking from one end of the train to the other. Back in those days, the train could be 20+ cars. Those were the days!


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## railiner (Feb 14, 2021)

The Commissioner said:


> I have fond memories of riding the SAL and then SCL Silver Meteor from Newark down to south Florida. Early in the trip, everyone on the train would be invited to the dining car for complimentary fresh squeezed orange juice. Because we had coach seats most of the time, I'd go back to the observation car and read the copy of the Official Railway Guide they kept there and leaf through the pages looking at all the other trains in America. Also fun was walking from one end of the train to the other. Back in those days, the train could be 20+ cars. Those were the days!


I had forgotten that many top trains carried an ORG aboard. Pullman cars also carried "Hotel Red Books", and Western Union Telegraph blanks, which you could send enroute.








1917 - Hotel Red Book and Directory | FamilyTree.com


Available online are all the pages to a 1917 hotel directory of hotels across the nation. See what is fascinating finds are in this book.




www.familytree.com





My family used to take my grandfather to Penn Station, NY each winter, and put him on a Seaboard train to Miami. The last time, was in 1956. I now know it was a Seaboard, because I recall the distinctive stainless steel. ACL trains were painted. The most 'exotic' car on the Meteor, was the 'sun-lounge' sleeper, with its glass roof panels and large side windows.

The later merged SCL's William Rice maintained top-notch service, right up to the advent of Amtrak...the winter only Florida Special was a superb train with its candle-light dinners, and recreation car features and activities...


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 14, 2021)

Wow Railiner... Seaboard was an amazing rail system... hard to find pics unless one really investigates. Don't know how accurate these are... let us know. Even harder to find youtube vids of the amazing equipment... even with Greenfrog... but when I viewed that sun-lounge sleeper it just took my breath away!


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## fdaley (Feb 14, 2021)

railiner said:


> Very much enjoyed your story, too. Thanks for posting!
> The E-L Lake Cities was another one of the trains I managed to get in pre Amtrak, although it ended the year before...



Did you cover the whole route from Chicago to Hoboken? So much of it is gone now, especially the western end. Even when I was tooling around Ohio in the early '90s, the tracks and most of the stations were no more, and it was hard to tell in some places where the right of way had been.


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 14, 2021)

fdaley said:


> In 1956, a few years before I was born, my family moved from Millburn NJ to Scranton PA. Even then, Joe Biden's hometown was struggling, the hub of a coal-mining region that had gone into steep decline.
> 
> Although it was only 135 miles from New York City, it is difficult to imagine now just how insular Scranton was in those days before the interstate highways. Even in the '70s, after the highways came through, we used to joke about living "behind the anthracite curtain," as it seemed there were so many people there who never ventured beyond the coal towns that lined the Lackawanna and Susquehanna valleys.
> 
> ...


The Phoebe Snow will remain on my bucket list forever... because it is gone forever... but I will never stop dreaming about this beautiful train that wound its way from Hoboken to Chicago through some of the most beautiful scenery in America. Yes, like so many others... I am grieving the loss of such amazing RR wonder!

"At the turn of the 20th century, the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad burned anthracite coal to power its steam locomotives and advertised the cleaner coal with a series of ditties about Phoebe Snow, a fictitious woman who wore white when riding the trains."

While not possible to physically board the Phoebe Snow... pictures do help!


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## jpakala (Feb 14, 2021)

My favorite memory is a 1964 trip on the all-firstclass Super Chief with its dome car that had rotating parlor car seats except for coach-style seats on either side right up facing the front windows. The diner was like a 5-star restaurant if not nicer. One midday meal when the diner was full Mom & I were taken into the front of the next car to dine (by ourselves as it turned out) in the Turquoise Room, a private group dining room on the main floor in front of the dome. Its rearward wall had the illuminated inset turquoise jewel-like decoration Santa Fe used in magazine ads for the train, and we sat right below it like the ads showed. It was the trip of a lifetime. Dad had to work and my siblings were on their own by then, so only Mom & I could go. We returned east on The Chief in the car that spent a day up at the Grand Canyon. Leaving the Canyon, I went to the rear to take photos from a chartered coach whose group had some members miss the train. Suddenly a motorcoach with horn blaring passed the train on a distant road and we began to stop. Across the sagebrushy terrain came the Black church women who had missed the departure and I was honored to be part of a joyous, laughter-filled reunion!


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 14, 2021)

jpakala said:


> My favorite memory is a 1964 trip on the all-firstclass Super Chief with its dome car that had rotating parlor car seats except for coach-style seats on either side right up facing the front windows. The diner was like a 5-star restaurant if not nicer. One midday meal when the diner was full Mom & I were taken into the front of the next car to dine (by ourselves as it turned out) in the Turquoise Room, a private group dining room on the main floor in front of the dome. Its rearward wall had the illuminated inset turquoise jewel-like decoration Santa Fe used in magazine ads for the train, and we sat right below it like the ads showed. It was the trip of a lifetime. Dad had to work and my siblings were on their own by then, so only Mom & I could go. We returned east on The Chief in the car that spent a day up at the Grand Canyon. Leaving the Canyon, I went to the rear to take photos from a chartered coach whose group had some members miss the train. Suddenly a motorcoach with horn blaring passed the train on a distant road and we began to stop. Across the sagebrushy terrain came the Black church women who had missed the departure and I was honored to be part of a joyous, laughter-filled reunion!


Yall were some of the lucky ones that got to dine in the Turquoise Room!

I got to ride on the Super Chief in a Roomette, and eat in the Diner Once, all that I could afford!


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 14, 2021)

Oh my Jim... now you got me wanting to go back in time... again... because the Super Chief to me as a grade school kid was just a pipe dream. I gotta be honest... I was daydreaming in my 4th grade class about going out West on the Chief... and got in trouble for not paying attention to a most boring instructor!!!

So do you remember what you had in that dining car??? 

I did go on the NP Mainstreeter after college in the late 60's and remembered the Idaho Potato. I was in coach and brought lots of bread and bologna with me... and treated myself to the dining car once... that potato was all I did get but the very nice waiter gave me lots of sour cream, butter, chives, and other toppings. I do remember that! 

Many cheers... and a toast... to another dream that got away!


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## railiner (Feb 14, 2021)

fdaley said:


> Did you cover the whole route from Chicago to Hoboken? So much of it is gone now, especially the western end. Even when I was tooling around Ohio in the early '90s, the tracks and most of the stations were no more, and it was hard to tell in some places where the right of way had been.


All the way from Dearborn Station to Hoboken. The Lake Cities "rubbed shoulder's" with the glamorous Santa Fe trains, at its Chicago terminal,  but was a "lone orphan" there. At the Hoboken end, the E-L was everything, with its diesel and electric commuter's...


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## Asher (Feb 14, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> Interesting the similarities between the EMD E and F units to the Siemens units today. EMD or GM understood aerodynamics, The E unts could debut today and still look the part in the 21st century.


 Plus they had a 2 stroke 567 turbocharged engine that howled.


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## railiner (Feb 14, 2021)

jpakala said:


> My favorite memory is a 1964 trip on the all-firstclass Super Chief with its dome car that had rotating parlor car seats except for coach-style seats on either side right up facing the front windows. The diner was like a 5-star restaurant if not nicer. One midday meal when the diner was full Mom & I were taken into the front of the next car to dine (by ourselves as it turned out) in the Turquoise Room, a private group dining room on the main floor in front of the dome. Its rearward wall had the illuminated inset turquoise jewel-like decoration Santa Fe used in magazine ads for the train, and we sat right below it like the ads showed. It was the trip of a lifetime. Dad had to work and my siblings were on their own by then, so only Mom & I could go. We returned east on The Chief in the car that spent a day up at the Grand Canyon. Leaving the Canyon, I went to the rear to take photos from a chartered coach whose group had some members miss the train. Suddenly a motorcoach with horn blaring passed the train on a distant road and we began to stop. Across the sagebrushy terrain came the Black church women who had missed the departure and I was honored to be part of a joyous, laughter-filled reunion!


The Super Chief was certainly a wonderful train. Superb service, and cuisine by Fred Harvey until near the end.
One of the reasons the diner overloaded, was it only offered 36 seats (4 & 2 tops), rather than the standard 48 (4 & 4). Hence the need for the Turquoise Room in the adjacent lounge. And while those rotating dome seats were very luxurious, they meant only 16 rather than the standard 24 dome seats shared by the entire train. That said, I loved those lounge cars. I rode them in their latter life, when they were remodeled. I absolutely loved those shaded table lamps, with their brass cylinder's featuring star shaped pin holes, where an internal light projected stars on the walls. I can't find a photo of them on the 'net...


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## railiner (Feb 14, 2021)

anumberone said:


> Plus they had a 2 stroke 567 turbocharged engine that howled.


Don't you mean _supercharged? _I don't think the E's and F's were turbocharged.
The superchargers were necessary to scavenge the exhaust from the 2 cycle engine....


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## Asher (Feb 14, 2021)

railiner said:


> Don't you mean _supercharged? _I don't think the E's and F's were turbocharged.
> The superchargers were necessary to scavenge the exhaust from the 2 cycle engine....


 
Turbchargers run off of the exhaust gasses. Superchargers run off of the crankshaft. The E's and F's were using a mechanical operarted type Turbo, later EMD locomotive engines changed to a clutch driven Turbo.
The reason they are mechanically operated is because it allows the engine to increase the HP at a low RPM, giving them a lot of grunt they wouldn't have otherwise. The clutch type was a system created by General Motors. A big game changer.


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## railiner (Feb 14, 2021)

anumberone said:


> Turbchargers run off of the exhaust gasses. Superchargers run off of the crankshaft. The E's and F's were using a mechanical operarted type Turbo, later EMD locomotive engines changed to a clutch driven Turbo.
> The reason they are mechanically operated is because it allows the engine to increase the HP at a low RPM, giving them a lot of grunt they wouldn't have otherwise. The clutch type was a system created by General Motors. A big game changer.


Early EMD engines, including the E's and F's, did not have turbochargers. They were naturally aspirated engines, that had Roots type blowers just to scavenge the exhaust gases, required in their 2 stroke design. The later model EMD's replaced this with the turbo-compressor system, which as you mentioned, was gear driven at low engine speeds, and then switched to the turbo at higher engine speeds...


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 14, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Wow Railiner... Seaboard was an amazing rail system... hard to find pics unless one really investigates. Don't know how accurate these are... let us know. Even harder to find youtube vids of the amazing equipment... even with Greenfrog... but when I viewed that sun-lounge sleeper it just took my breath away!
> 
> View attachment 20676
> 
> ...



The Hollywood Beach still exists. In fact its running a public charter trip in April from St. Louis, MO to Kansas City, MO and back on April 10-11 to benefit the restoration of another Seaboard car the original observation car from the Silver Meteor (1939). You can message me for information because I know the trip proprietor and can send you his contact. (I have no vested interest in this trip at all. Just mentioning seeing the car came up)


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## Asher (Feb 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> Early EMD engines, including the E's and F's, did not have turbochargers. They were naturally aspirated engines, that had Roots type blowers just to scavenge the exhaust gases, required in their 2 stroke design. The later model EMD's replaced this with the turbo-compressor system, which as you mentioned, was gear driven at low engine speeds, and then switched to the turbo at higher engine speeds...
> [/QUOTE
> A little difference in terminology, were on the same page. Jimmy 2 Smoker with a turbo.


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## WWW (Feb 15, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> The Hollywood Beach still exists. In fact its running a public charter trip in April from St. Louis, MO to Kansas City, MO and back on April 10-11 to benefit the restoration of another Seaboard car the original observation car from the Silver Meteor (1939). You can message me for information because I know the trip proprietor and can send you his contact. (I have no vested interest in this trip at all. Just mentioning seeing the car came up)


3 Photos of the Hollywood Beach and 1 of the Hickory Creek
These cars will be in the consist of the ACE (Autumn Colors Express- Huntington WV October 21-24)















For more info and photos - LINK Tickets! - Autumn Colors Express


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 15, 2021)

S


WWW said:


> 3 Photos of the Hollywood Beach and 1 of the Hickory Creek
> These cars will be in the consist of the ACE (Autumn Colors Express- Huntington WV October 21-24)
> 
> View attachment 20689
> ...


Sounds like an amazing fall trip in a truly beautiful part of the country. Although at $599 a pop for Chairman's class seems mucho dinero! Is that per couple or per person / and $1200 per couple$$$

Looks like beautifully restored cars


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## Ferroequinologist (Feb 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> I had forgotten that many top trains carried an ORG aboard. Pullman cars also carried "Hotel Red Books", and Western Union Telegraph blanks, which you could send enroute.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I remember those sun lounges. They ran for a long time. I also remember the fabulous food. The most memorable breakfast I've ever had was on an SCL train. The waiter brought a large oval plate artfully laden with light, fluffy French toast, confectioner's sugar sprinkled on top. Not only was the French toast the most delicious I've ever had, it was served in an appealing way that would please the most aesthetically minded Japanese foodie. On another SCL trip I remarked to the waiter that the salad dressing was the best I'd ever had. He went into the dining car and returned with a bottle with the SCL label on it. They were actually selling it.


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## railiner (Feb 15, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> S
> 
> Sounds like an amazing fall trip in a truly beautiful part of the country. Although at $599 a pop for Chairman's class seems mucho dinero! Is that per couple or per person / and $1200 per couple$$$
> 
> Looks like beautifully restored cars


If it's the Sun Lounge of the "Hollywood Beach" you desire to ride, you don't have to pay nearly that much, according to the linked brochure...
To ride in the lounge portion, its $299. per person, or if you want to ride in one of that car's bedrooms, it's $319. per person...








Tickets! - Autumn Colors Express


Welcome to the secure ticketing portal of the Autumn Colors Express – we’re glad you’re on board! Find out about the trip on our About the Trip page (boarding Information, departure times, and much more) Our FAQ contains plenty of pertinent information. Click Here for the FAQ If you’re planning...



www.autumncolorexpresswv.com


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> If it's the Sun Lounge of the "Hollywood Beach" you desire to ride, you don't have to pay nearly that much, according to the linked brochure...
> To ride in the lounge portion, its $299. per person, or if you want to ride in one of that car's bedrooms, it's $319. per person...
> 
> 
> ...


The lounge cars look good to me! Beautifully restored and a chance to share the experience with others


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## bms (Feb 15, 2021)

Those lounges look like they have the nice version of the knockoff chair I bought from Target! Totally approve.


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## WWW (Feb 15, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> S
> 
> Sounds like an amazing fall trip in a truly beautiful part of the country. Although at $599 a pop for Chairman's class seems mucho dinero! Is that per couple or per person / and $1200 per couple$$$
> 
> Looks like beautifully restored cars



The fare is PER PERSON
Riding in the Chairman's car(s) maybe be a highlight lark but there are also coach and domed cars.
The Chairman fares include meal and beverage service - - -

Side note:
The Frank Thompson car was pulled and replaced with the NYC Hickory Creek -
From what I have noted the Hickory Creek and the Friends 261 Milwaukee Road Cedar Rapids will be the end cars of the consist.
One way will have the Amtrak locomotives blocking the view.

This is a 4 day event - plenty of options to find a way to take part in at least one day.
Appears that there is 3 Amtrak locomotives pulling this 18+ car consist from Huntington WV with a stop (boarding point) at Charleston and then
to the return point at Hinton following the New River (Gorge). The locomotives are repositioned from the front to the rear of train to pull it back
to Huntington. The stop turn around point at Hinton is some 4+ hours - lots of time to take in local fare activity.

Major hotels are about 8 blocks from the Huntington depot and shuttle service is planned.

Leading up to this is another rail trip called the Cincinnati Daylight Express leaving Chicago about 11 am Tuesday October 19 with the consist of
cars destined for Huntington to make up the rest of the week activity.

The Amtrak Cardinal trains 50 & 51 offer a way to connect the dots - hopefully it will be on a 7 day schedule - right now it is only on a 3 day schedule.


I am booked on both the CDE (10/19) and Thursday & Friday (10/21-22) on the ACE returning to Chicago on the Cardinal Friday night if anyone
is interested in a discussion of sorts.

I usually do a late autumn Alaska cruise in coordination with the Alaska RR but that is not happening this year of the virus.


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## Willbridge (Feb 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> I had forgotten that many top trains carried an ORG aboard. Pullman cars also carried "Hotel Red Books", and Western Union Telegraph blanks, which you could send enroute.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was it Seaboard or ACL that used Northern Pacific cars in the winter? Or SCL?

I used the Western Union blanks a few times. This one I pdf'ed for a Western History prof who was trying to explain to his students how people communicated before the internet. Sorry I spelled the railroad president's name wrong. The middle of the night telegram likely did not have the result that I requested but it may have led to a follow-up that changed my career plans.


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## WWW (Feb 15, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Was it Seaboard or ACL that used Northern Pacific cars in the winter? Or SCL?
> 
> I used the Western Union blanks a few times. This one I pdf'ed for a Western History prof who was trying to explain to his students how people communicated before the internet. Sorry I spelled the railroad president's name wrong. The middle of the night telegram likely did not have the result that I requested but it may have led to a follow-up that changed my career plans.
> 
> ...



Was that $1.29 to send this telegram ?
Imagine the terrabites that $1.29 could buy in todays communications market !


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## Willbridge (Feb 15, 2021)

WWW said:


> Was that $1.29 to send this telegram ?
> Imagine the terrabites that $1.29 could buy in todays communications market !


Yes, you said it right! As a college student back then, it cost so much that I remember wondering if I'd gone overboard.

A few months later I tried sending a telegram to a passenger on a train and it didn't work. I knew that used to be possible but by 67-68 WU and the railways were noticeably falling apart.

The last time I sent a telegram was in Spring 1968 and I received a reply by telegram. DDD (Direct Distance Dialing) was introduced in that era and long-distance rates plunged, although just as with e-mail there were time zone advantages to sending a telegram.

In 1973-74 I worked in an office that had RCA Telex for our San Francisco<>Tokyo link and that was a superb way of working around the clock. In 1974 RCA introduced a new service, a Computer, and they could save your analog Telex message in digital form and send it later when the line was open. That was my introduction to e-mail. Noting the years in this posting, that was a relatively short time for what was a huge transition.


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## railiner (Feb 15, 2021)

Brings back memories...in the summer of '64, I was a bicycle messenger for Western Union...still have my yellow and black plastic badge. It was a terrible job...my route took me into a 'ghetto' neighborhood, where people often didn't have telephones, and invariably, the telegrams were sent bearing mostly bad news...especially from the Defense Dept., as the Vietnam War was ramping up...


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## west point (Feb 15, 2021)

Amtrak did have a few heavy weight sleepers around 1972 on Coast starlight from San Diego


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## Willbridge (Feb 15, 2021)

railiner said:


> Brings back memories...in the summer of '64, I was a bicycle messenger for Western Union...still have my yellow and black plastic badge. It was a terrible job...my route took me into a 'ghetto' neighborhood, where people often didn't have telephones, and invariably, the telegrams were sent bearing mostly bad news...especially from the Defense Dept., as the Vietnam War was ramping up...


William Saroyan wrote about his experience in rural California in WWII as a bicycle messenger for Postal Telegraph, the "plan B" of telegraphy. He had to deliver those telegrams and it hurt.

It seems cruel now but some countries treated it with even less consideration. In my website I have pictures of the graves in Germany of unknown Soviet soldiers who left home and just never returned.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 15, 2021)

WWW said:


> The fare is PER PERSON
> Riding in the Chairman's car(s) maybe be a highlight lark but there are also coach and domed cars.
> The Chairman fares include meal and beverage service - - -
> 
> ...


I wouldnt count on the Cardinal being Daily, it's a 3× a week Train and probably will stay that way even when Daily LD Service resumes.


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## railiner (Feb 16, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> William Saroyan wrote about his experience in rural California in WWII as a bicycle messenger for Postal Telegraph, the "plan B" of telegraphy. He had to deliver those telegrams and it hurt.
> 
> It seems cruel now but some countries treated it with even less consideration. In my website I have pictures of the graves in Germany of unknown Soviet soldiers who left home and just never returned.


Dramatically portrayed in this Oscar nominated performance...thank Goodness I never had to read one for a recipient...


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## TrackWalker (Feb 16, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Was it Seaboard or ACL that used Northern Pacific cars in the winter? Or SCL?...



re: North Coast Limited

*"Each of the 5 trainsets carried 2 of the dome sleepers, with 1 going to Seattle and 1 to Portland. In the winter, the Portland car was removed. In 1959 the dormant cars were temporarily traded for IC sleepers and ran on the Chicago - Florida IC-CofG-ACL/SCL(1967)-FEC "City of Miami" and the PRR-L&N-ACL/SCL(1967)-FEC "Southwind".

The "trading" occurred again in the 5 years 1963-1967 except that in 1963 they did not run on the "City of Miami" but ran on the IC "Panama Limited" instead.

The cars on the "Southwind" remained in NP colors, but the cars used by IC were repainted (TWICE!) each year..."

-Trainweb





NP


LINX/\-SHORT - Northern Pacific



trainweb.org




*


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## Siegmund (Feb 18, 2021)

Trainwalker beat me to it. Far as I knew the sharing deal was only between NP and IC, and it was more or less coincidental that they happened to reach Florida on through service sometimes... if they operated on the South Wind and not just the IC-routed service, I learned something new today.


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## railiner (Feb 18, 2021)

Siegmund said:


> Trainwalker beat me to it. Far as I knew the sharing deal was only between NP and IC, and it was more or less coincidental that they happened to reach Florida on through service sometimes... if they operated on the South Wind and not just the IC-routed service, I learned something new today.


Which leads me to believe it was the Pullman Company itself that made that move, or it could have been the ACL/SCL since they handled both the City of Miami, and the South Wind (and at one time also the Dixie Flagler).

The pooling of equipment was a delight for railfans of the streamliner period. It meant sometimes seeing the cars of fiercely rival carrier's like PRR and NYC being used on each other's trains...


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## Willbridge (Feb 19, 2021)

railiner said:


> Which leads me to believe it was the Pullman Company itself that made that move, or it could have been the ACL/SCL since they handled both the City of Miami, and the South Wind (and at one time also the Dixie Flagler).
> 
> The pooling of equipment was a delight for railfans of the streamliner period. It meant sometimes seeing the cars of fiercely rival carrier's like PRR and NYC being used on each other's trains...


And the surplus heavyweight Pullmans turned up on excursion and troop trains. My father claimed that a 1950's excursion wasn't complete without an open section Pennsy sleeper. On the West Coast. On a Labor Day 1956 Portland<>Seaside excursion ($4.95 round-trip) my dad was on the trip committee so our family had a drawing room in a standard heavyweight lettered Western Railway of Alabama. The same train had a standard heavyweight in Armour Yellow lettered Union Pacific. A UP traffic man who was on the excursion went through the old sleeper explaining to passengers that the regular UP trains had much nicer streamlined cars.

It was so common to see a mash-up on tours of symphonies, theater road shows, etc. that in the following 1965-67 era photos I didn't try to document all the different Pullmans. However, if you look closely you can see that Portland Union Station had Eastern visitors. The GN train - including a heavyweight - is Pool 459.


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## fdaley (Feb 19, 2021)

The discussion of telegrams above makes me think of how different the logistics of travel were in the golden age, particularly if we define that as the late '40s to late '50s. No cell phones and no Internet, of course, but there also were no ATMs -- and very few people had charge cards. Most travelers had to rely on cash and travelers checks, and this required staying within whatever budget one had set at the outset of one's trip, as getting more cash while traveling was difficult and potentially costly.

I remember my grandmother describing how she traveled by train from New Jersey to Grand Rapids MI to visit her brother in the mid-1950s (probably 1956, give or take a year). She took the Pennsylvania Railroad's Red Arrow from Newark to Detroit, then the Pere Marquette to Grand Rapids. On the return trip, she somehow missed her connection in Detroit and had to spend "half the night" at the old Fort Street station before the PRR's next departure. She wanted to let my mother, who was supposed to pick her up the next morning in Newark, know about the delay, but she could only spare enough cash to send a three-word telegram: "Wait at Newark."


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## Willbridge (Feb 19, 2021)

fdaley said:


> The discussion of telegrams above makes me think of how different the logistics of travel were in the golden age, particularly if we define that as the late '40s to late '50s. No cell phones and no Internet, of course, but there also were no ATMs -- and very few people had charge cards. Most travelers had to rely on cash and travelers checks, and this required staying within whatever budget one had set at the outset of one's trip, as getting more cash while traveling was difficult and potentially costly.
> 
> I remember my grandmother describing how she traveled by train from New Jersey to Grand Rapids MI to visit her brother in the mid-1950s (probably 1956, give or take a year). She took the Pennsylvania Railroad's Red Arrow from Newark to Detroit, then the Pere Marquette to Grand Rapids. On the return trip, she somehow missed her connection in Detroit and had to spend "half the night" at the old Fort Street station before the PRR's next departure. She wanted to let my mother, who was supposed to pick her up the next morning in Newark, about the delay, but she could only spare enough cash to send a three-word telegram: "Wait at Newark."


I just unearthed my budget for attending a weekend college broadcaster conference at Stanford from Portland. It shows the train fare but I ended up sharing an overnight ride with friends (hey, college students are authorized to do risky things!) and there is a receipt attached for my share of the gas.

Traveling in Europe was even trickier in 1969-71 due to juggling advance purchases of multiple foreign currencies. I have one of my expense notebooks from those trips, kept because other guys would ask for projected costs for their leaves.

For the 1966 Intercollegiate broadcasting trip, the figures on the right are the actual.


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## fdaley (Feb 20, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I just unearthed my budget for attending a weekend college broadcaster conference at Stanford from Portland. It shows the train fare but I ended up sharing an overnight ride with friends (hey, college students are authorized to do risky things!) and there is a receipt attached for my share of the gas.
> 
> Traveling in Europe was even trickier in 1969-71 due to juggling advance purchases of multiple foreign currencies. I have one of my expense notebooks from those trips, kept because other guys would ask for projected costs for their leaves.
> 
> ...



It seems amazing now that you could budget $10 for a night at a hotel and $6 for an entire day's meals.


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## jis (Feb 20, 2021)

WWW said:


> The Frank Thompson car was pulled and replaced with the NYC Hickory Creek -


I have ridden the Hickory Creek a couple of times on a New York - Albany - New York turn which they used to do at least once every year. It was kind of fun to ride it on its original route imagining what it must have been like for the riders of the 20th Century limited along the Hudson Valley.


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## Willbridge (Feb 24, 2021)

fdaley said:


> It seems amazing now that you could budget $10 for a night at a hotel and $6 for an entire day's meals.


The S.F. Muni's cash fare at that time was 15¢ with free transfers.


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## bms (Feb 24, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I just unearthed my budget for attending a weekend college broadcaster conference at Stanford from Portland. It shows the train fare but I ended up sharing an overnight ride with friends (hey, college students are authorized to do risky things!) and there is a receipt attached for my share of the gas.
> 
> Traveling in Europe was even trickier in 1969-71 due to juggling advance purchases of multiple foreign currencies. I have one of my expense notebooks from those trips, kept because other guys would ask for projected costs for their leaves.
> 
> ...



College expenses from a few decades later were submitted to the Student Government. I was the treasurer for a couple of years. The Trivia Team was honest and easy to deal with, and was nationally recognized. We always approved these expenses for them, because they traveled throughout the country and represented the University.


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## Willbridge (Feb 24, 2021)

bms said:


> College expenses from a few decades later were submitted to the Student Government. I was the treasurer for a couple of years. The Trivia Team was honest and easy to deal with, and was nationally recognized. We always approved these expenses for them, because they traveled throughout the country and represented the University.


The radio station had its own budget with a subsidy from the student fees. I think that our registration was paid for. The rest came out of our pockets. We stayed at Roberts-at-the-Beach in San Francisco, at the end of the L-Taraval line.

For Portlanders, San Francisco was our Paris. A couple of our group had never been there before. (I was an 'expert' by way of having made two previous trips.) Somewhat the role that New Orleans played for the South. So when the conference was over we lingered for another day. Then back onto US99. Oregon had finished I-5 but far northern California still was one lane in each direction.

Which brings us back to the thread topic. The "Golden Age" for coach and parlor car travel varied according to the status of highway construction. On our drive home we paused to take a look at this. Around Thanksgiving and year-end holidays it was not uncommon for college students pushing the envelope to have accidents or breakdowns between Oregon and California points.


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## bms (Feb 24, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> The radio station had its own budget with a subsidy from the student fees. I think that our registration was paid for. The rest came out of our pockets. We stayed at Roberts-at-the-Beach in San Francisco, at the end of the L-Taraval line.



Our college radio station WRUW was independently funded, and many of my friends hosted shows. It was totally normal to be talking with someone at a party after midnight, only to have them leave totally sober to go host their show at 2 am or whatever time they could get on.


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## Palmland (Feb 24, 2021)

My college radio station was definitely low power, but was fun to listen to the latest hits and occasional news. I was there, talking with a friend, when news of the Cuban missile crises came over the teletype. Not long after I saw multiple trains (tracks ran through campus) loaded with tanks and other military equipment headed to Florida from Quantico. It seemed very incongruous as they were interspersed with the Florida streamliners.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 24, 2021)

I believe the ACL also put some leased dome cars on the Florida Special in later years. I've seen photos of a dome with a SCL herald in Richmond


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## Palmland (Feb 24, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> I believe the ACL also put some leased dome cars on the Florida Special in later years. I've seen photos of a dome with a SCL herald in Richmond



Seaboard's comment rang a bell, as I remember seeing it when I was in college. I rooted through my pile of slides and found this. Surprisingly it was taken later, March 1970. Lots going on this photo. Broad street station in Richmond is now a museum, a classic railroad office car is in the backround, and the dome is one of the three the B&O used on the Capitol Limited. Perhaps it's Moonlight Dome that until recently was in PV service and I believe was bought by the NS for their Office Car Special trains. I wouldn't be surprised if the new head of operations, Cindy Sanborn, didn't have something to do with this as I suspect she is a closet raiilfan given here railroad pedigree.

The SCL certainly ran a first class passenger operation until the end. Compare this with the sorry trains on the PC. According to the SCL timetable the Florida Special by this time was also carrying coaches but it still had 7 sleepers, 2 diners, and a recreation car. The dome was unique in that it had 5 roomettes, 3 compartments and a single room - I assume a bedroom. Also operating to Florida then were the Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Champion, Gulf Coast Special, and Everglades. The Palmland had been cut back to Columbia.


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## railiner (Feb 24, 2021)

I rode the Florida Special near the end of SCL service, and although riding coach, from New York to Fayetteville, I managed to "talk my way" into the dome after departing Richmond...


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## Palmland (Feb 24, 2021)

railiner said:


> I rode the Florida Special near the end of SCL service, and although riding coach, from New York to Fayetteville, I managed to "talk my way" into the dome after departing Richmond...


Perhaps you were on it the day the photo was taken!! My Florida Special trip was in 1968. Sadly, no dome but we had to put up with this. No doubt it was recently removed from the Broadway. The photo was in Fort Lauderdale after our trip from Wilmington.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 24, 2021)

Actually CSX bought the Moonlight Dome for their office train and they have had the fluting removed from what I've heard. 

The Florida Trains used to have interesting consists for sure in the years they would be running with the Pullman Pool. Whatever was available could and would show up.


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## Willbridge (Feb 24, 2021)

Palmland said:


> My college radio station was definitely low power, but was fun to listen to the latest hits and occasional news. I was there, talking with a friend, when news of the Cuban missile crises came over the teletype. Not long after I saw multiple trains (tracks ran through campus) loaded with tanks and other military equipment headed to Florida from Quantico. It seemed very incongruous as they were interspersed with the Florida streamliners.


In the film _13 Days in May _there is a reference to this. Railfans were aware of what was happening while people in DC were hearing denials. A slightly different take is in the final scenes of _Dunkerque _in which the exhausted British soldier collapses on a seat in a railway carriage that hadn't been built yet. Thanks to English train spotters there are records of all the oddball rolling stock that was assembled to get the concentrated survivors out of potential harm's way.

On the theme of "Golden Age travel" from a quieter time here's more of what the knowledgeable traveler knew... and the sample "Bon Voyage" messages say nothing about engines catching fire.


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## railiner (Feb 24, 2021)

I love perusing the optimistic and colorful advertisements of the early twentieth century...


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## Dakota 400 (Feb 25, 2021)

railiner said:


> I love perusing the optimistic and colorful advertisements of the early twentieth century...



I do as well. I recall very attractive and colorful covers to some railroads' timetables. PRR's come immediately to mind. Some menu covers were attractive and interesting as well, such as C&NW's.


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## Willbridge (Feb 25, 2021)

And then there were the simple things that quietly informed one's friends or colleagues that one was off to someplace important and exotic. While I was writing on NP green _Mainstreeter_ stationery others were penning notes on sky blue Pan Am In-Flight stationery...


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## Asher (Feb 26, 2021)

Rising from the Rails. A story of the Pullman and the history of the black men that worked on the railroad sleeping cars is on PBS KCET Television Saturday eve in Los Angeles. I'm looking forward to it. My first trip on a train was in 1942. Sacramento to Seattle. I was 4 1/2 I don't remember a lot, I do remember the porters

Just as well give a shout out to those United D.C. 7s I worked for United back in those days and that was the first plane I ever flew in. A short hop from Burbank to LAX, short but exciting for me.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 26, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> I do as well. I recall very attractive and colorful covers to some railroads' timetables. PRR's come immediately to mind. Some menu covers were attractive and interesting as well, such as C&NW's.


I still remember the Santa Fe Ads from the 40s and 50s.


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## railiner (Feb 26, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I still remember the Santa Fe Ads from the 40s and 50s.


Me too. Even until approximately 1970. 
I wonder how those "Chico" ads would go over in today's politically correct times? And the use of "Chief" and other Native American symbols?
Just ask Jeep...


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## trainman74 (Feb 26, 2021)

anumberone said:


> Rising from the Rails. A story of the Pullman and the history of the black men that worked on the railroad sleeping cars is on PBS KCET Television Saturday eve in Los Angeles.



Thanks, I set it to record. My DVR tells me it first aired in 2006, but I don't remember having seen this before.


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## Willbridge (Feb 27, 2021)

railiner said:


> Me too. Even until approximately 1970.
> I wonder how those "Chico" ads would go over in today's politically correct times? And the use of "Chief" and other Native American symbols?
> Just ask Jeep...



The Santa Fe had better relations with indigenous people than some other companies but they also had other themes in their ads. And doesn't the reporter in this ad look like Clark Kent? Advertising like this is probably why the UP opened a City Ticket Office in Hollywood.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 27, 2021)

anumberone said:


> Rising from the Rails. A story of the Pullman and the history of the black men that worked on the railroad sleeping cars is on PBS KCET Television Saturday eve in Los Angeles. I'm looking forward to it. My first trip on a train was in 1942. Sacramento to Seattle. I was 4 1/2 I don't remember a lot, I do remember the porters
> 
> Just as well give a shout out to those United D.C. 7s I worked for United back in those days and that was the first plane I ever flew in. A short hop from Burbank to LAX, short but exciting for me.


A DC-7 was the first plane I ever flew in, too. A flight from Baltimore-Friendship (now BWI) to Miami. The return flight was on a Convair 880.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 27, 2021)

railiner said:


> Me too. Even until approximately 1970.
> I wonder how those "Chico" ads would go over in today's politically correct times? And the use of "Chief" and other Native American symbols?
> Just ask Jeep...


Well, wouldn't that mean the Amtrak is facing a problem with the Southwest Chief? 
But, then again, my first job title at USGS was "Project Chief," and my boss was a "Section Chief." I don't think any native activists would mind that because the word actually comes from the French "chef," from the Latin word "kaput," meaning "head," which is also related to the word "Capitol." Which means that the Southwest Chief and the Capitol Limited should really be the same train and run cross-country from Washington to LA.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 27, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, wouldn't that mean the Amtrak is facing a problem with the Southwest Chief?
> But, then again, my first job title at USGS was "Project Chief," and my boss was a "Section Chief." I don't think any native activists would mind that because the word actually comes from the French "chef," from the Latin word "kaput," meaning "head," which is also related to the word "Capitol." Which means that the Southwest Chief and the Capitol Limited should really be the same train and run cross-country from Washington to LA.



At one time I think they were interlined in the 1990s till OTP went down hill.


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## TheCrescent (Feb 27, 2021)

My only pre-Amtrak trip was on the Southern Crescent in the 1970s from the Southeast to Boston, in a sleeping car. I am told that it was cheaper than flying (the reverse of that train today). I don’t really have many memories of it, but when I took a Norfolk Southern excursion in the 1980s, in a Southern Railway coach from the Crescent, Amfleet seemed nicer (due to the carpeted floors on Amtrak).

The snazziest and most high-end train that I’ve ever taken is Brightline; it blows away every other train, with its sleek and luxurious stations and really nice cars. I am also thrilled in first class on the Acela Express, with elegant interiors, 150-mph speeds and friendly staff. Perhaps the Golden Age is here, or coming soon?


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 27, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I wouldnt count on the Cardinal being Daily, it's a 3× a week Train and probably will stay that way even when Daily LD Service resumes.


If Amtrak is to really get back on the rails... and expand its services... wouldn't it be nice to see a daily Cardinal, the Sunset Limited finally continue on to Orlando... reinstatement of the Pioneer as it once was bringing service back to CALI via Las Vegas; and to PDX on the old UP.

Hey there Amtrak... there are people living all over this country... forget them not when it comes to bringing back and expanding service.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 27, 2021)

railiner said:


> Dramatically portrayed in this Oscar nominated performance...thank Goodness I never had to read one for a recipient...



I was with my dad the evening 2 Marines came to his house to inform him my Brother, the Marine Grunt, had been wounded in Vietnam and was in the Hospital on Okinawa(since I grew up in a Military Family, we both thought he had been Killed in Action when we saw the Navy Car drive up)


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## 20th Century Rider (Feb 27, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I was with my dad the evening 2 Marines came to his house to inform him my Brother, the Marine Grunt, had been wounded in Vietnam and was in the Hospital on Okinawa(since I grew up in a Military Family, we both thought he had been Killed in Action when we saw the Navy Car drive up)


A memorable post... seeing Mickey Rooney as a novice in a serious role. Wow... brings back memories...


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## Skylark (Nov 14, 2021)

Got _Hollywood Beach _hooked to my SWC ride today! Never heard of it before...learned lots of cool things.

S_omeday..._


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## Eric in East County (Nov 14, 2021)

On March 4, 1946, the _Mutual Radio Network _began broadcasting _*Bob Elson on the Twentieth Century Limited*_, a 15-minute weekday program originating from Chicago’s LaSalle Street Station and featuring veteran sportscaster Bob Elson interviewing passengers who were about to depart for New York City on the _20th Century Limited_.

Elson would open each program with, “Hello folks. This is Bob Elson aboard the _Twentieth Century Limited_, one of the world’s great trains where we have a host of travelers today and some very interesting people.” He would then conduct spontaneous interviews (usually three per broadcast) with some of the more interesting passengers (actors, entertainers, visiting royalty, scientists, sports figures, famous authors, political figures, etc.) who were departing on that day’s _Century_. (During these interviews, train announcements and other station noises could be heard in the background.)

A number of these programs survive in good sound and are quite interesting to listen to, particularly if you are a fan of the “golden age of rail passenger service.” Here’s a link to a source where they can be purchased inexpensively in the mp3 format:









Bob Elson On the Twentieth Century Limited | Old Time Radio


Bob Elson interviews in LaSalle Street Station in Chicago garnered open responses from actors, politicians, sports figures and Royalty.



www.otrcat.com


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 15, 2021)

My first experience on a US passenger train (being born in England as a child I had ridden on BR behind steam!) was as a college student riding the Reading Company RDC from Bethlehem PA to Pholadelphia. In 1968 I decided to travel home to the Boston area by train. Took the RDC down to Philly to catch Penn Central's Patriot which ran through to Boston via the Hell Gate. At that time many trains required changing from Penn to Grand Central to continue to Boston. I recall the excitement of seeing it pull into 30th Street a GG1 followed by several baggage cars, a parlor cars with swivel chairs then coaches mostly the New Haven stainless steel ones. The train was packed but I managed to find a sear in the smoking compartment of one coach. This coach had lights that would go out when we were stopped but come on once the train was on the move, probably dead batteries. Eventually after Newark they failed completely. After NYC the train emptied out and I got a better seat but stayed in the darkened coach for the better view in the dark outside. At New Haven we got a pair of FL9 Diesels. I didn't get any food, I recall there was some kind of snack bar. I remember passing a mail train with RPOs at Providence. Got off at 128 station which we reached about 30 minutes late. 
This trip started me taking the train whenever I could, until I got my first car a '63 VW Beetle in my junior year. Until then I took a few trips, all memorable even though the Penn Central had its problems it was always a thrill taking the train. I even got to ride the new UAC Turbo Train riding in the dome portion behind the engineer with a great view out the front.


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## jis (Nov 15, 2021)

My only experience with US passenger trains was in 1965 Boston - New York - Washington DC - Boston. Trains involved was the Senator and another one I forget the name of, all in Coach. The experience was less than spectacular, involving non-operating Air Conditioners on a relatively warm day. At least the open Dutch Doors were nice.

As a result of that experience we decided to switch to Greyhound and ride a Scenicruiser instead, and the AC did work there and it was less expensive to boot


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## uncleboots (Nov 16, 2021)

My Pre-Amtrak Trips were the Wabash Bluebird and Banner Blue. The GM&O Limited and Midnight Special. I loved riding in the Wabash Domes.


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## JoshP (Nov 16, 2021)

I found this amazing photo, it must be in 1970s. But look how people are dressed up, even for a train ride. Professional.


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## JoshP (Nov 16, 2021)

Amtrak E9 #425 & SDP40F #591 at Central Terminal in Buffalo on July 15, 1977.


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## jphjaxfl (Nov 16, 2021)

railiner said:


> The "Golden Age" is quite subjective. Some might say it ended, when automobiles started proliferating with the Ford Model 'T" in the early 20th century...others might say when the airliner's carried more passenger's around the early sixties or so...
> But some railroads maintained quality service right up to the end, such as the Santa Fe, and a few others, that were still investing in new rolling stock as late as 1965, and new locomotives even later. Even the much maligned Penn Central introduced Metroliner's and Turbo Trains...


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## Ziv (Nov 16, 2021)

The first train trip I remember is the time my Dad took me from Glasgow MT to Seattle on the Builder in 1973 or 1974. It was an Amtrak train but it still kind of felt like a GN one. I think there were still mountain goats on the inside some of cars.
My Dad was a Burlington Northern brakeman and the Builder crew treated him like a VIP, which this kid was impressed with. And the porter was a very cool, very service oriented black gentleman. My Dad was a UTU member and possibly a shop steward by that time and he told me I was to call the porter Mr. “Smith”. I think this might have been shortly after the black porters union joined the white union but I am not sure.
And the dining car food was delicious!
It was simply a phenomenal trip!



anumberone said:


> Rising from the Rails. A story of the Pullman and the history of the black men that worked on the railroad sleeping cars is on PBS KCET Television Saturday eve in Los Angeles. I'm looking forward to it. My first trip on a train was in 1942. Sacramento to Seattle. I was 4 1/2 I don't remember a lot, I do remember the porters
> 
> Just as well give a shout out to those United D.C. 7s I worked for United back in those days and that was the first plane I ever flew in. A short hop from Burbank to LAX, short but exciting for me.


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## jruff001 (Nov 16, 2021)

JoshP said:


> I found this amazing photo, it must be in 1970s. But look how people are dressed up, even for a train ride. Professional.
> 
> View attachment 25533


Cool photo but it looks staged IMO which is probably why people look relatively dressed up.


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## MikefromCrete (Nov 16, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Cool photo but it looks staged IMO which is probably why people look relatively dressed up.


 Yeah, it's some kind of advertising promo.


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## BCL (Nov 16, 2021)

I'd note that passenger operations probably lost money overall for the major railroads, but it was still a prestige operation. And of course they were obligated to provide passenger rail in exchange for a lot of the benefits they got - especially the power of eminent domain.

The major railroads were crucial in developing our national parks. Union Pacific had the Utah Parks Company division that built lodging at Bryce Canyon, Zion, Grand Canyon, and Cedar Breaks NM.









Railroads and Southern Utah’s National Parks


Long before vacationers rode Union Pacific trains to Sun Valley, visitors to America’s scenic wonders had discovered the convenience of trains for destination travel. From the very earliest days of train travel, railroads marketed America’s scenic beauty as reason enough to take a trip.In 1903,




www.nationalparks.org





The Old Faithful Inn was built by the Yellowstone Park Company, that was part of the Northern Pacific Railway. ATSF bought the Grand Canyon Railway and finished the line to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon. BNSF even has a page on this since they absorbed the NP and ATSF

Going west: How BNSF predecessors helped shape America’s national parks


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## Willbridge (Nov 16, 2021)

BCL said:


> I'd note that passenger operations probably lost money overall for the major railroads, but it was still a prestige operation. And of course they were obligated to provide passenger rail in exchange for a lot of the benefits they got - especially the power of eminent domain.
> 
> The major railroads were crucial in developing our national parks. Union Pacific had the Utah Parks Company division that built lodging at Bryce Canyon, Zion, Grand Canyon, and Cedar Breaks NM.
> 
> ...


If you run across them at a book sale, Professor Al Runte has written well about railroads and the national parks.


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## Willbridge (Nov 16, 2021)

Ziv said:


> The first train trip I remember is the time my Dad took me from Glasgow MT to Seattle on the Builder in 1973 or 1974. It was an Amtrak train but it still kind of felt like a GN one. I think there were still mountain goats on the inside some of cars.
> My Dad was a Burlington Northern brakeman and the Builder crew treated him like a VIP, which this kid was impressed with. And the porter was a very cool, very service oriented black gentleman. My Dad was a UTU member and possibly a shop steward by that time and he told me I was to call the porter Mr. “Smith”. I think this might have been shortly after the black porters union joined the white union but I am not sure.
> And the dining car food was delicious!
> It was simply a phenomenal trip!


As I've bragged shamelessly about before, my first "real" train ride -- excluding streetcars and interurbans -- was on the Union Pacific pool trains on a round-trip between Portland and Seattle in 1952 or 1953 with my family. It was raining. Lunch northbound and dinner southbound in the Astra-Dome diner. Permission to have a peak in the galley, where some of my schoolmates' fathers worked culinary miracles. From the family car we had watched Train 457 departing Portland (via the Steel Bridge and Albina Yards in those days) after dropping off my dad for his monthly business trip to Seattle. It was a thrill to finally be on that train and notice how the crew greeted him by name and with respect (probably treated all their regulars with respect, but as a little kid I focused on small things).

As my K-8 grade school was in a neighborhood only a couple of miles from the yards, there were kids who showed us their passes. My friend Paul had a pass good on any UP train out of Portland except for the Streamliner. His dad was a claim agent. Donna's father was an SP brakeman and she had a pass good only on Trains 19/20, the _Klamath. _I doubt whether their parents approved of them bringing them to show and tell!


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## jpakala (Nov 18, 2021)

The C&NW's Dakota 400 was nice, as were the IC's Land O-Corn and the Hawkeye and PRR's The Pittsburgher (all-Pullman to NY overnight). The dome sleepers of the NP's North Coast Limited and the observation car at the rear were great, but one of the best was the Olympian Hiawatha's Skytop Lounge. The parlor version of that you still can enjoy when the Friends of the 261 run it from Chicago to St. Paul on the rear of the Empire Builder.


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## frequentflyer (Nov 18, 2021)

Does the present SWC go from CHI-LA in 40 hours?


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## danasgoodstuff (Nov 19, 2021)

fdaley said:


> It seems amazing now that you could budget $10 for a night at a hotel and $6 for an entire day's meals.


I did a $4 CND (or was it less!?) hotel stay in Vancouver in the mid-70s, and lots of trips were cash on hand into the '80s or later.


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## MARC Rider (Nov 19, 2021)

fdaley said:


> It seems amazing now that you could budget $10 for a night at a hotel and $6 for an entire day's meals.


 Not if you followed the advice in this book:
Europe on 5 Dollars a Day (Reproduction of Original Printing): Arthur Frommer: 9780470165645: Amazon.com: Books 

OK, by the 1970s, I think the book was titled, 'Europe on $10 a day," but you get the idea. Even in 1980 I was staying in motels that were less than $20 a night, admittedly more or less 1-star places, but they were clean and the heat and plumbing worked fine.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 19, 2021)

In Jan of 1982, my Late Wife and I left Vancouver for a Winter Vaction in Puerto Vallarta, intending to spend 3 weeks in the Sun!

The Peso collapsed thanks to the Corrupt Mexican Government,( Lopez Portillo) and all the Banks closed and the President confiscated all the Dollars held in Accounts.

Things were incredibly cheap for Tourists that had US Dollars, including Hotels,Food,Alcohol etc. 

We ended up spending 5 Months there and only spent a little over $1,000 including riding Trains in Pullmans all over Mexico, with Fares in the Range of $40 for a Bedroom from Guadalajara to Mexico City.

Our Flights were Charter and already paid for, in those days you could fly from Canada to the Tropics much cheaper than you could fly to Mexico from Texas.

Best deal of my life, including staying in Thailand for several weeks when Asia was still an incredible bargain!


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 19, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Not if you followed the advice in this book:
> Europe on 5 Dollars a Day (Reproduction of Original Printing): Arthur Frommer: 9780470165645: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> OK, by the 1970s, I think the book was titled, 'Europe on $10 a day," but you get the idea. Even in 1980 I was staying in motels that were less than $20 a night, admittedly more or less 1-star places, but they were clean and the heat and plumbing worked fine.


I used to use those books when I traveled all over Latin America and Asia!


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## MARC Rider (Nov 19, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I used to use those books when I traveled all over Latin America and Asia!


I hope you didn't use "Europe on $5 a day" when you were in Latin America or Asia.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 19, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I hope you didn't use "Europe on $5 a day" when you were in Latin America or Asia.


I read those Europe books and day dreamed of doing Europe on the Cheap,but by the time I could go it had had become Expensive and I had grown too old to back pack it and hitch hike!

Except for Ireland,France,the British Isles and and Italy, I have no desire to visit Europe!


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## Willbridge (Nov 19, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I read those Europe books and day dreamed of doing Europe on the Cheap,but by the time I could go it had had become Expensive and I had grown too old to back pack it and hitch hike!
> 
> Except for Ireland,France,the British Isles and and Italy, I have no desire to visit Europe!


My first trip to Europe was in a C-141 Starlifter flown by New Jersey air reservists. You can't get much cheaper than that 10-abreast seating.

In the U.S. Army I knew some guys who bought those guides because they could meet American and Canadian girls in the places recommended. It WAS pretty funny, being on a train where it seemed that no one spoke English and then picking up a gaggle of Eurailpass travelers chatting away in diverse U.S. accents.


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## Palmland (Nov 20, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> Does the present SWC go from CHI-LA in 40 hours?



I always enjoy seeing that video and other old travel films. You wonder who their script writer was with the stilted language. But it’s a bit depressing to compare the features on the Super Chief with Amtrak. About the only thing I can think of that’s improved are the showers in all bedrooms and better visibility from the superliner windows.


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## Larry H. (Nov 20, 2021)

My Grandfather and I were on the Empire Builder from Seattle to Chicago the week they announced they were turning over the passenger business to Amtrak. The train it self was in wonderful condition with striking paintings on the walls representing the west. The diner with its etched glass panels between some parts of the car was a wonder to see. The food was still fine, the on board service as well. However even though it still ran with five pullmans, first class lounges, coach lounge, ect. the train had a pretty small amount of customers. It might have been due to the fact they were claiming sold out rooms or seats when the train was near empty..All to make it look like passengers didn't want to ride it any longer. That isn't speculation it was confirmed by the officer for the railroad who's wife told us they were told no rooms either but finally got got one the day of the departure. We had called down from Vancouver after going from Toronto there and decided to return in the States after three days on the CN.. The ticket agent in Vacouver tried three times to get us a reservation with room and was told it was sold out every time.. Finally he told us to go on down to A town I forget the name of now, and that the train would come though shortly after we arrived there. He said if we ask the conductor he would most likely get is a room on the train which is how we finally got on it. I think the best part of a trip in those days was that the trains were there own distinctive interiors and exterior paint jobs that made you really feel like it was a special event. Now no matter the name its the same basically boring interiors so the names mean nothing much.


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## Palmland (Nov 20, 2021)

Ziv said:


> I do remember sitting in the front of the dome car and watching the trees roll by and spotting one slightly startled moose look up at the locomotive and slowly trot off into the woods.


While the SSL cars are great for viewing both sides of the tracks, I do miss the forward views described here. On a trip on the Canadian a few years ago I spent too much time in the dome watching the signals change and meeting other trains. Even at night it was mesmerizing to see the headlight piercing the darkness and small towns coming into view.

Perhaps if Amtrak orders new sleepers using the single level Siemens design, they’ll make a few ‘real’ dome cars too, at least for the scenic western routes. Although I suspect ADA rules would make it difficult.


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## Willbridge (Nov 20, 2021)

Palmland said:


> While the SSL cars are great for viewing both sides of the tracks, I do miss the forward views described here. On a trip on the Canadian a few years ago I spent too much time in the dome watching the signals change and meeting other trains. Even at night it was mesmerizing to see the headlight piercing the darkness and small towns coming into view.
> 
> Perhaps if Amtrak orders new sleepers using the single level Siemens design, they’ll make a few ‘real’ dome cars too, at least for the scenic western routes. Although I suspect ADA rules would make it difficult.


As I've mentioned, I'm old enough to have enjoyed numerous dome rides (UP, SP&S, NP, GN, CP) but the most memorable was from Staples to Minneapolis on the _North Coast Limited. _I had awoken to watch the connecting RDC for Duluth and decided to stay awake on the run into the Twin Cities. We had been half an hour late at Jamestown as farewells were said for the last RPO run eastbound. Now we were on double track with CTC making up time.

There was one other passenger in the dome, also watching the signals flashing as we overtook freights. I knew him from the street in downtown Portland, where he sold newspapers. We talked a bit and I learned that he had been saving to make a life-long dream trip "back East" -- I think it was to Chicago. Like me, he was too excited to sleep. It was my first trip to Chicago, too. We arrived in Minneapolis on time.

I was off at Minneapolis to watch Milwaukee Road Train 16 come in and to get some photos of the innovative Tyrone Guthrie Theater before catching the _Morning Zephyr_. As it turned out, I never saw my acquaintance again and I realized that I had not asked him if he had a round-trip ticket. And I never saw NP Train 25 or 26 again.


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## alanh (Nov 22, 2021)

This last weekend I hiked the abandoned AT&SF grade between Williams and Ash Fork, AZ. This is the original 1882 line that was abandoned in 1960 after the mainline was rerouted to the north. It has a maximum grade of 2.6%. After the line was double-tracked it was used for westbound (downhill) trains. The eastbound track took a different route with an easier grade. That track is still in service to connect Phoenix to the mainline at Williams Jct.

The main sight on the hike is the Johnson Canyon tunnel. It's still in great shape. The steel roof was installed in 1898 after a fire destroyed the timber roof.





This was the WB route of the Super Chief for almost all of its existence. I also found a film by Morrison-Knudson about the construction of the 1960 reroute.


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## Northwestern (Dec 21, 2022)

An interesting documentary on the SP Coast Daylight:









Daylight the Most Beautiful Train in the World (FULL DOCUMENTARY) RARE!


This is the full documentary of “Daylight, the Most Beautiful Train in the World”. I own NOTHING. **ALL RIGHTS GO TO THE ORIGINAL OWNERS**




is.gd


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 21, 2022)

There were several unique features to the Daylight fleet that I think there is still some merit in. These cars had a unique luggage loading situation where the porter could press a button and the shelf would move up or down to load bags from the ground. So you weren't having to lug the bags up and down the steep stairs. I think this was very unique and innovative. And I would love to have seen this in operation. However I think most of these cars were retrofitted in the 60s away from this. And I don't know of any like this that made it to preservation. Not saying one didn't, I don't know it all. But I'm confident in that synopsis. 

The other unique item was more on the Cascade and the Shasta Daylight which was the tipple unit diner/lounge/kitchen/dorm car. I know of at least one of these that was preserved in Grapevine, Texas. It allowed for a full lounge, and full diner in a really elegant set up. Hopefully they get it restored. I'm sure parts will be a problem.


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## danasgoodstuff (Dec 22, 2022)

I have some memory of pre-Amtrak travel in the States and more of pre-VIA in Canada. And some from Europe circa 30 years ago. But my Golden Age was this past spring when I took Amtrak from PDX to Orlando and back. That's the trip I have memories and photos and a journal of.


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## Willbridge (Dec 22, 2022)

Seaboard92 said:


> There were several unique features to the Daylight fleet that I think there is still some merit in. These cars had a unique luggage loading situation where the porter could press a button and the shelf would move up or down to load bags from the ground. So you weren't having to lug the bags up and down the steep stairs. I think this was very unique and innovative. And I would love to have seen this in operation. However I think most of these cars were retrofitted in the 60s away from this. And I don't know of any like this that made it to preservation. Not saying one didn't, I don't know it all. But I'm confident in that synopsis.
> 
> The other unique item was more on the Cascade and the Shasta Daylight which was the tipple unit diner/lounge/kitchen/dorm car. I know of at least one of these that was preserved in Grapevine, Texas. It allowed for a full lounge, and full diner in a really elegant set up. Hopefully they get it restored. I'm sure parts will be a problem.


I remember the baggage elevators and I think that they started to have maintenance problems. My first trip between Portland and Oakland was in 1960, _Cascade _south and _Shasta Daylight _north, and I think they were in service then. I do remember being impressed by the dining cars. I had only had meals in UP dome diners before that.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 22, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> I remember the baggage elevators and I think that they started to have maintenance problems. My first trip between Portland and Oakland was in 1960, _Cascade _south and _Shasta Daylight _north, and I think they were in service then. I do remember being impressed by the dining cars. I had only had meals in UP dome diners before that.



That would make sense and by that time the Southern Pacific was slowly becoming more and more anti passenger. Nothing compares to eating in a dome car. The Southern Pacific when they initially streamlined did a lot of really innovative things that really set them apart. Articulated pairs of coaches, the triple unit diner/lounge, and the mentioned baggage elevators. I've also read a book that had a lot of their car plans and they had some unique serving bar concepts I've tried recreating at a tourist railroad. We ultimately went against it because it took too much serving space away but it would have been a unique feature.


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