# Loopholes



## Tony (Jul 10, 2011)

What are some good one-zone loopholes that Amtrak offers?


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## Rail Freak (Jul 10, 2011)

I dont think there are anymore loopholes! However, the best bang for the buck $ 1 zone rides would be in the western zone. ex. - Abuquerque to Glacier Park ( 3 nites & 8 meals ).


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## had8ley (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm sure most mega-milers have a loophole or two in their vest pocket but aren't letting it out. The Slidell loophole got abused, talked about on every website and quickly disappeared. Would you give away a secret loophole knowing that it might disappear as quickly as it is posted ???

But mine is Atlanta to Miami, via Washington, because it affords Heritage equipment which won't be around much longer.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 10, 2011)

Tony said:


> What are some good one-zone loopholes that Amtrak offers?


My favorite is ElPaso-LA-Portland-Wolf Point. 3 Nice Trains (SSL/CS/EB), 3 Days/3 Nights, 7 meals including the PPC on the CS!

I was one of the fortunate ones that got to do the Slidell and Kirkwood-KCY-LAX-CBS Loopholes :wub: before Amtrak made them Disappear!  I seldom disagree with my friend Jay but contrary to popular belief Posting these Loopholes on web sites did NOT make Amtrak suddenly wake-up and take them away!

Not quiet a Loophole but the NOL-ATL Sleeper Deal on the Crescent is the Best Deal Amtrak has IMO!!!!


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## the_traveler (Jul 10, 2011)

When I saw "Loopholes", my eyes woke up!






I have a few, but I'll keep them to myself!



I don't even share them with me!


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 10, 2011)

Actually the so-called Loopholes are still there-it just takes more AGR Points to get them. But many are still a great value, especially the CBS Loophole.

While not a Loophole per say, I'm doing Norman OK to Seattle later this month as 2 2 segment redemptions. My routing there is NOR-FTW-SAS-LAX-SEA and return is SEA-EMY-GBB-SPI (Springfield IL)-FTW-NOR. That's 7 train days and nights which is a pretty good deal for 40,000 (actually 38,000) Points


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## had8ley (Jul 10, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Tony said:
> 
> 
> > What are some good one-zone loopholes that Amtrak offers?
> ...


I guess I'm buying the refresments in Seattle... h34r: Just how did they disappear? Too many loopholers ???


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## John (Jul 10, 2011)

So Slidell,La to Chicago,Il would not work as a one zone reward?


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## Ispolkom (Jul 10, 2011)

John said:


> So Slidell,La to Chicago,Il would not work as a one zone reward?


I'd expect that it wouldn't, but why not call up AGR and see?


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## Rail Freak (Jul 10, 2011)

As I Understand It

Old Rules: travel from origination station to destination station - if both are in the same zone then 1 zone reward (ex Slidell-WAS - Chicago)

New Rules: You will be charged zone rewards every time you pass thru another zone (Slidell-WAS- CHI) 3 zones!?!?!?

I've heard where they are now allowing you to do this trip thru NOL for 1 zone if you pay for the overnite room. ?????


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## had8ley (Jul 10, 2011)

Rail Freak said:


> As I Understand It
> 
> Old Rules: travel from origination station to destination station - if both are in the same zone then 1 zone reward (ex Slidell-WAS - Chicago)
> 
> ...


I'm confused...as usual! Do you mean Slidell to NOL on #19 and then back track on #20 to Washington or do you mean come in from the north (CONO) or the west on the Sunset and then do the trip ???


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## the_traveler (Jul 11, 2011)

had8ley said:


> I'm confused...as usual!


Why am I not surprised, Jay?


















> Do you mean Slidell to NOL on #19 and then back track on #20 to Washington or do you mean come in from the north (CONO) or the west on the Sunset and then do the trip ???


It would be Crescent SDL-NOL and CONO NOL-CHI or the other way.


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## AlanB (Jul 11, 2011)

had8ley said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Tony said:
> ...


Nope, AGR was well aware of the "loopholes" but never considered the abuse to be large enough to worry about. That is until one day a loophole reservation got screwed up during booking. When the person with the reservation that got screwed up ended up needing to now travel on a blackout date, the agent denied the rebooking at that point. The person escalated the issue all the way to the top insisting that since it was Amtrak's mistake, that they override the blackout and allow him to travel.

Management capitulated and provided the trip. Management also decided that loopholes were now worth worrying about and closed them.


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## AlanB (Jul 11, 2011)

Rail Freak said:


> I've heard where they are now allowing you to do this trip thru NOL for 1 zone if you pay for the overnite room. ?????


That's always been allowed.


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## Rail Freak (Jul 13, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > I've heard where they are now allowing you to do this trip thru NOL for 1 zone if you pay for the overnite room. ?????
> ...



Where have I been??? :lol: I was talking to an agent yesterday & she said if your connecting train is 23 1/2 hours or less, they will allow a layover on your dime. Otherwise you're charged an additional zone.

& to think, I thought I knew it all!!!

Thanx Alan


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## the_traveler (Jul 13, 2011)

Rail Freak said:


> Where have I been??? :lol: I was talking to an agent yesterday & she said if your connecting train is 23 1/2 hours or less, they will allow a layover on your dime. Otherwise you're charged an additional zone.
> 
> & to think, I thought I knew it all!!!


That doesn't make sense!





Then why do they give you a hard time (at the very least) connecting


From the CS to EB in SEA
From the CS to the SL in LAX
From the EB to the TE in CHI
etc... etc... etc...


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## Rail Freak (Jul 13, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > Where have I been??? :lol: I was talking to an agent yesterday & she said if your connecting train is 23 1/2 hours or less, they will allow a layover on your dime. Otherwise you're charged an additional zone.
> ...


If I called back & got another agent, I'd probably get another answer!!!


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## dart330 (Jul 15, 2011)

I really want to be able to do EB to TE. Going to be hitting up AGR a lot when planning that trip. It really makes no sense to not let me make that connection with less than a 24 hour layover on my own dime. Hopefully I can find an agent to book it.


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## Ispolkom (Jul 15, 2011)

dart330 said:


> It really makes no sense to not let me make that connection with less than a 24 hour layover on my own dime.


Lots of aspects of AGR do not make sense. This is only one of them.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 15, 2011)

If you try to book SEA to NOR (Norman OK) Arrow shows no service is available, yet it will allow you to book SEA-FTW, where there is a legal and easy connection with the _*Heartland Flyer*_ to Norman. When I made this as an AGR a few weeks ago, I asked the agent if he could "force" the connection and in just a few seconds, he had it done with no problems or questions or extra draw of Points. He also allowed me to pick from what Roomettes were available as well, again with no problems. Based on this, there's at least one top notch agent working the AGR desk!


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## FlyingBoat (Jul 17, 2011)

I have two 4 night BR trips from ABQ to MSP booked with 20K each. Just call another agent. I had the first one booked a couple of months ago. Just called up and booked the same deal for friends of mine to join. Agent looked at my res and said without my asking. That's a one zone trip and charged the 20K.


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## Rail Freak (Jul 17, 2011)

For the hell of it, I called AGR 3 different times tonight. Each time, I was told that if connections are less than 24 hrs. apart you can stay over on your own dime for 1 zone reward!!!

ATL-CHI

PDX - ELP


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## TimePeace (Jul 18, 2011)

Rail Freak said:


> For the hell of it, I called AGR 3 different times tonight. Each time, I was told that if connections are less than 24 hrs. apart you can stay over on your own dime for 1 zone reward!!!
> 
> ATL-CHI
> 
> PDX - ELP


Will you explain that a little more?


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## Rail Freak (Jul 18, 2011)

Maine Rider said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > For the hell of it, I called AGR 3 different times tonight. Each time, I was told that if connections are less than 24 hrs. apart you can stay over on your own dime for 1 zone reward!!!
> ...


In the past,(before Amtrak took back AGR operations), if your trip required an over nite layover (ex.- PDX to ELP-layover in LAX) you would either have to fork out more points or pay cash for the LAX-ELP portion of your trip.

Now, depending on the agent you talk to, if your Scheduled connection departure time is less than 24 hours from your scheduled arrival time, you can over nite in LAX (on your dime for the hotel) & continue on to ELP with your original reward!


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## the_traveler (Jul 18, 2011)

So why would MSP-DAL, MSP-DEN or MSP-KCY work?



The connection between the EB and TE, CZ or SWC is under 24 hours!


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## Ispolkom (Jul 18, 2011)

FlyingBoat said:


> I have two 4 night BR trips from ABQ to MSP booked with 20K each. Just call another agent. I had the first one booked a couple of months ago. Just called up and booked the same deal for friends of mine to join. Agent looked at my res and said without my asking. That's a one zone trip and charged the 20K.





> For the hell of it, I called AGR 3 different times tonight. Each time, I was told that if connections are less than 24 hrs. apart you can stay over on your own dime for 1 zone reward!!!


This is what I love about AGR. FlyingBoat books the loophole trip DEN-SAC-PDX-MSP, the basis of which is AGR's rule that you can't stop overnight in Chicago.

Rail Freak, on the other hand, seems to have no problem booking award trips with an overnight (not, though, with one in Chicago, I see).

I'm planning to travel on FlyingBoat's itinerary next spring. I'll be interested in seeing how many point I'm charged.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 18, 2011)

Uh oh! Looks like Agent Roulette has given one of our members a Loophole that technically doesn't exist! Alan has said a couple of times that they could either come back later and charge more points for the trip or if the pax is lacking enough points in their account even cancel said trip! Hope that doesnt happen! 

Of course Dave makes a good point, if they are going to allow overnights less than 24 hours to make connections (on your dime) then ALL such connections should be valid Awards! :excl: :excl: :excl:


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## Ispolkom (Jul 18, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Of course Dave makes a good point, if they are going to allow overnights less than 24 hours to make connections (on your dime) then ALL such connections should be valid Awards! :excl: :excl: :excl:


There you go again, expecting AGR to have rational, understandable rules for long distance awards. That's not how AGR works. AGR is like honey badger. He don't care.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 18, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Of course Dave makes a good point, if they are going to allow overnights less than 24 hours to make connections (on your dime) then ALL such connections should be valid Awards! :excl: :excl: :excl:
> ...


Yeah, the right hand doesnt know what the left is doing! It's Amtrak! :wacko:


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## the_traveler (Jul 18, 2011)

With AGR, sometimes the right hand doesn't even know what the right hand is doing!


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## Rail Freak (Jul 18, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> FlyingBoat said:
> 
> 
> > I have two 4 night BR trips from ABQ to MSP booked with 20K each. Just call another agent. I had the first one booked a couple of months ago. Just called up and booked the same deal for friends of mine to join. Agent looked at my res and said without my asking. That's a one zone trip and charged the 20K.
> ...


I've never booked a trip requiring overnites. Just trying to clear up the confusion! My travels haven't included overnites in CHI but have in NOL & LAX. Come to think of it, I think I'll call back & see what they say about SEA!!!


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## PaulM (Jul 18, 2011)

Rail Freak said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Rail Freak said:
> ...


If we are talking about SLD - NOL - CHI via the Crescent and CoNO, then I am doubly confused. This is the first I've heard of the 23 1/2 hour rule; I always thought it was any overnight, i.e., a layover past midnight, was not allowed. The classic case is transferring from just about any western train to another western train in Chicago.

Secondly, I've always heard that for an AGR connection to be a valid, it had to show up in Amtrak.com. As far as SLD - NOL - CHI is concerned, I just checked Amtrak.com and the only connections were via the CL and Card, both now two zones.


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## the_traveler (Jul 18, 2011)

Previously, NOL was the only overnight stop allowed (but on your own dime) for connections between the Crescent and SL (such as ATL-HOS), provided you took the next train out. (No 6 or 7 day stays in NOL.) Now it seems all the rules have changed.


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## Ispolkom (Jul 18, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> Now it seems all the rules have changed.


Or have they? I've never really been convinced that there were rules for long-distance AGR bookings, only probabilities. You probably can't book a loophole. You probably can't book a stopover. Since nothing is written down, though (at least where we can read it), it's all kind of nebulous. Think of AGR as a quantum awards program, where a route only has a certain probability of existing. Some routes, say Chicago-Washington for 2 zones, have a 99.8% chance of existing, while the notorious Slidell Shuffle two-zone award to Portland has only a 3% chance. All you can do is ask and see what you get. Sure, we were told that the loopholes went away on April 1, 2010, but have they? There's only one way to find out -- ask an agent to book you one. Then the probabilities collapse into a yes/no matrix. That is, until you ask another agent.

That's why I love AGR much more than airline frequent-flyer programs. It's much more entertaining.


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## HoosierStater (Jul 18, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Now it seems all the rules have changed.
> ...


"Scotty, I want to book a 2-zone award from Tampa to Seattle!"

"I cannae change the laws of physics, Captain!" :giggle:


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