# Iowa Pacific - Can It Be Duplicated Elsewhere?



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 28, 2016)

_Admin note: this topic was split from this topic in Travelogues._



ruck said:


> Iowa Pacific is trying a great many things to increase service and awareness of the train. One of these is dollar fares like what Mega Bus offers, specifically the first two fares are sold at 1$. Being a bit of planner, liking to ride trains, and always loving a good deal I looked out into Amtrak's calendar and found two tickets on a Sunday for 1$. I booked them for myself, and my 5 year old daughter. I was able to get dollar tickets going both directions, when combined with the kids discount that meant round trip cost of 3$.
> 
> After boarding and getting situated we headed to breakfast in the bottom of the dome car. The seating area itself was very cold. The staff wasn't particularly forthcoming with information but there was definitely some sort of heating issue (given it was 7 degrees out maybe some thing froze up who knows). Still we just chalked up to "these things happen". The food came out delicious, my daughter had the french toast, I had eggs. The food really was great, and cheaper than Amtrak's. I do feel bad to compare as I know IP and Amtrak operate under different models but it's kind of hard not to compare. Additionally it was great to even have the option for food as the old Hoosier State was just two coaches, really made the trip easier and the train a more desirable option.
> 
> ...


It sounds like the IP model should be duplicated elsewhere in Amtrak. Why not have IP work with more trains and/or find similar partners?


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 28, 2016)

Iowa Pacific isn't exactly a "partner" with Amtrak. It is hired by the state of Indiana to provide equipment and on-board service. Amtrak provides the operating crew. Any state that contracts with Amtrak could do the same, or they could even have somebody like Iowa Pacific or Keolis to provide both operating and OBS crews and equipment and contract directly with the host railroad to run the service. Whether Iowa Pacific will be successful with the Hoosier State is yet to be seen.


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## trainviews (Mar 29, 2016)

So far it has definately been a mixed bag. Ridership has cratered since IP took over. At least in the beginning there were many cancellations, and that might be why, as the Cardinal doesn't seem to have suffered the same losses.

On the other hands the trip reports are really positive. But to ordinary travellers, not just travelling to enjoy the trip, it's probably more important that the train is reliably running.


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## cirdan (Mar 30, 2016)

trainviews said:


> So far it has definately been a mixed bag. Ridership has cratered since IP took over.


Is that so? Have you seen any statistics? Or is it just perception?

If Iowa Pacific messes up on this, there will probably be no similar partnerships or ventures for a long time.


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## keelhauled (Mar 30, 2016)

cirdan said:


> trainviews said:
> 
> 
> > So far it has definately been a mixed bag. Ridership has cratered since IP took over.
> ...


It's in every monthly report. Down 12% in February, 10% in January, 7% in December, 14% in November, 17% in October, 12% in September. Year over year.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 30, 2016)

I think the Hoosier State is just handcuffed by the schedule. Obviously the slow speed of the trip is a factor but if the schedule between CHI-IND was more ideal (even if it took the same time) ridership would go up.


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## Eric S (Mar 30, 2016)

But it's not as if the schedule changed in the last year. I think the ridership declines are probably related to something else - perhaps lower gas prices and all the talk last year of the train being discontinued.


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## ruck (Mar 31, 2016)

Eric S said:


> But it's not as if the schedule changed in the last year. I think the ridership declines are probably related to something else - *perhaps lower gas prices* and all the talk last year of the train being discontinued.


I think that is a big part of it. According to Google Maps it's 124 miles between Lafayette and Chicago Union Station. Basically 250 miles round trip, assuming 20 mpg, that's 12.5 gallons of fuel, at 2$ a gallon that's 25$. That number is roughly half a single round trip ticket, the car has the added benefit of being an hour quicker, more flexible, and it stays constant for additional passengers whereas the train it's another ticket.

The additional cost is a bit easier to justify with higher fuel prices. There's obviously benefits to the train, occupants of the vehicle don't scream when I look out the window for an extended time, no parking costs. But in a dollars and cents analysis the train doesn't perform well.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 31, 2016)

The Hoosier State's big problem is that it takes too long to get from Chicago to Indianapolis. A more efficient entrance to Chicago is needed and the Indiana portion of the route needs to be speeded up. Until that happens, don't expect to HS to attract more people than it does now.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 31, 2016)

The All Aboard Indiana Newsletter (link on the Amtrak Future subforum page, not too far down, and with the same title) has a well-organized and thoughtful article that combines many of the points above, with a "Next Steps" section. I think it's worth a read for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Mar 31, 2016)

The Hoosier State has potentially huge ridership - Indianapolis is a large and growing city, there's a big college town midway between, a congested interstate and Chicago area traffic, however, the single train, poor times and slow service really hurt it. One of my best friends is from the Indy area, goes back frequently and hates driving, however, the train is a non-starter due to that (it's quicker to drive or take Megabus).

It really should be akin to the Hiawatha service, which itself could have a huge increase in riders with more frequent trains (including commuter hours, there are a lot of people who commute between Chicago and Milwaukee, though a lot of the frequency could be handled with Metra extension - at least an hourly service [Gov. Walker is on record as being for improvements to the *existing* Hiawatha service, but I'm too lazy to find the citation]).


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 1, 2016)

As much as IP is bleeding money I'll say flat out no chance


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## A Voice (Apr 1, 2016)

Seaboard92 said:


> As much as IP is bleeding money I'll say flat out no chance


This is confirmed - Iowa Pacific is losing money? The company as a whole or just on the Hoosier State contract?


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## CCC1007 (Apr 1, 2016)

A Voice said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > As much as IP is bleeding money I'll say flat out no chance
> ...


Considering that they own short lines that are supposed to be profitable enough to support their passenger operations. I have a feeling that the downturn in class one traffic could be leading their short line partners to loose money overall.


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## jis (Apr 1, 2016)

Dunno about Hoosier State since it is a complex multi-party contract, but on the Saratoga and North Creek, by their own admission the passenger service is subsidized out of freight revenues on that line.


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## looshi (Apr 1, 2016)

You can pull the contract with Indiana and see how much IP is getting for use of their equipment. And then you can roughly guess how much has been spent on repairs and refurbishment to keep their coaches and locomotives operating. I am comfortable saying they are losing money.

I love riding that train, but they are clearly using it as a demonstration for an eventual bid on the Heartland Flyer and possibly the Illinois food-service contract.


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## seat38a (Apr 8, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> _Admin note: this topic was split from this topic in Travelogues._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Generally, other States, buy their own equipment and then have Amtrak run the system. No need to lease vintage equipment from IP.

CA, WA, OR, IL, NC and any other States that I'm missing either own or have new equipment on order.


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## jis (Apr 8, 2016)

I suspect IP may be open to be hired as the OBS provider without any rolling stock lease involvement too. They are most likely also quite capable of providing T&E should such be needed. Consequently they could be an alternative to a Keolis or Veolia sort of deal for middle distance regional service that involves more elaborate OBS than is provided on Commuter lines. There is nothing written in stone that says Amtrak must be contracted with to run the service in the long run, though the grandfathered track access rights from the 1971 act that created Amtrak makes things easier if Amtrak is the operating entity, to get track access at present.. One of the consequence of all this is that in the so called home of capitalism there is exactly zero competition in passenger rail transport, and almost zero competition even for providing OBS, while in the alleged home of socialism there is a rapidly developing competitive landscape for passenger rail. Heck even in India which is committed to maintaining Indian Railways as is for core operations, on board food service is contracted out to quite an extent.


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## jis (Jan 17, 2017)

According to somewhat reliable reports on Trainorders, Iowa Pacific failed to meet payroll for some at the end of December, laid off a whole bunch of people, and is teetering on the bring of bankruptcy.

There are also some less than ideal financial behavior discussed in a few posts. I don;t know the veracity of those. But they are mentioned by those that have had financial dealings with IP.


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## Manny T (Jan 17, 2017)

I wonder why Chi-Indy (180 miles) can't be modeled more on Chi-Milwaukee (90 miles) which has 6 Amtrak trains a day, evenly spaced out. The MKE trip takes about 1 hr 20 minutes and has no food service. Ridership is just short of 1 million a year. It helps that there is an airport stop.

The Chi-Indy schedule is not a good one. Not everyone likes a 6 AM departure (from Indy) nor a midnite arrival into Indy. Yet these are the only options today.

If there were say 4 trains a day in each direction, prices were reasonable, and food and beverages were available, I think it would catch on.


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## Eric S (Jan 17, 2017)

CHI-MKE service is fortunate to have a route that is far superior to CHI-IND service - whereas CHI-IND bounces from segment of one freight railroad to another, basically pieces of a handful of different routes cobbled together to try to form a halfway-reasonable CHI-IND route, CHI-MKE benefits from running on a single, relatively high quality route largely owned by a single freight railroad (in addition to parts owned by Amtrak and Metra). Also, CHI-MKE service is supported by states (25% IL and 75% WI) that have generally been far more supportive of passenger rail than Indiana has.


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## A Voice (Jan 17, 2017)

Manny T said:


> I wonder why Chi-Indy (180 miles) can't be modeled more on Chi-Milwaukee (90 miles) which has 6 Amtrak trains a day, evenly spaced out. The MKE trip takes about 1 hr 20 minutes and has no food service. Ridership is just short of 1 million a year. It helps that there is an airport stop.
> 
> The Chi-Indy schedule is not a good one. Not everyone likes a 6 AM departure (from Indy) nor a midnite arrival into Indy. Yet these are the only options today.
> 
> If there were say 4 trains a day in each direction, prices were reasonable, and food and beverages were available, I think it would catch on.


Indeed, multiple trains per day would help immensely, even without a faster schedule; Food service is already available on trains to Indianapolis. Further, while the current schedule mirrors the _Cardinal_ on the four days a week it doesn't operate, those times are hardly the most convenient or marketable for local traffic.

Problem is, you have to get the state of Indiana to pay for more trains, when it was a bit of a reach to get them to fund any service at all. That's the real stumbling block to any service improvements. As a modest first step, I'd suggest merely running the _Hoosier State_ daily on a better schedule. The incremental cost increase should be quite reasonable, but again, how do you interest Indiana in paying even a penny more?


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## Anthony V (Jan 17, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why Chi-Indy (180 miles) can't be modeled more on Chi-Milwaukee (90 miles) which has 6 Amtrak trains a day, evenly spaced out. The MKE trip takes about 1 hr 20 minutes and has no food service. Ridership is just short of 1 million a year. It helps that there is an airport stop.
> ...


That's a great idea to do once the Cardinal goes daily.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 18, 2017)

jis said:


> According to somewhat reliable reports on Trainorders, Iowa Pacific failed to meet payroll for some at the end of December, laid off a whole bunch of people, and is teetering on the bring of bankruptcy.
> 
> There are also some less than ideal financial behavior discussed in a few posts. I don;t know the veracity of those. But they are mentioned by those that have had financial dealings with IP.


Where have we heard this before on this board? I've been saying this for awhile ride it while you can, photograph it while you can. I expect them to fail by May. The private car market will be ripe with cars with Ringling shutting down so all in all about three hundred cars between them and IP landing on a depressed market. It's a buyers market.


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## Anderson (Jan 20, 2017)

I've been wondering about the Ringling equipment. I know the sets are bespoke, but IIRC there were either two or three trains with a _ton_ of cars.


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## neroden (Jan 21, 2017)

Anderson said:


> I've been wondering about the Ringling equipment. I know the sets are bespoke, but IIRC there were either two or three trains with a _ton_ of cars.


OK, Google is my friend:

http://www.trainweb.org/carl/CircusTrains/CircusTrainConsist.htm

32 or 33 "coaches" per train -- but although originally coaches, they appear to mostly be converted to sleeping accomodations. I can't find any photos of the interior layout. Each consist has a dining car and a generator car. Not sure what other types.

This may be the largest and best-maintained uniform fleet of historic cars out there; hopefully someone (Iowa Pacific?) can pick it up in one piece and arrange to use it to add capacity to certain Amtrak trains.

OK, I found ONE interior photo:

https://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1270774

Yeah. A private operator should pick these up and operate them as top-end sleepers (similar to the top-end sleepers on the Canadian) on the back of some Amtrak trains. They've been rebuilt recently enough that they'll be in decent shape, and there are *enough of them* to run daily. Even on several trains. If Amtrak would agree to hauling.


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## Lonestar648 (Jan 30, 2017)

Looks like IP could not make the Hoosier even break even. Press Release today says Amtrak takes over March1st.


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## iggy (Jan 30, 2017)

*The Indiana Department of Transportation announced today that, beginning March 1st, the Hoosier State (train nos. 850 and 851) will transition back to utilizing Amtrak equipment"*

*The decision brings an end to an exciting experiment that saw the train run as a joint partnership between Iowa Pacific Holdings; INDOT; Amtrak; and the cities of Crawfordsville, Lafayette, and Rensselaer. Iowa Pacific hoped to drive ridership increases by providing enhanced passenger amenities, such as full-service dining and dome cars. (Iowa Pacific relied on Amtrak crews to operate the train, utilizing Amtrak's experience and national structure to meet federal safety and insurance requirements.)*

*INDOT did not immediately provide a reason for the transition back to Amtrak equipment. In its statement, the agency did say it was planning on providing enhanced on-board amenities, including Wi-Fi and business class seating.*

*Copyright © *|YEAR|* National Association of Railroad Passengers, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email as a member or because you opted in on our website to receive notifications*


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## jis (Jan 30, 2017)

The issue of discontinuance of IPH handling of the Hoosier State is being discussed here:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/69827-hoosier-state-going-from-iph-back-to-amtrak/


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## dlagrua (Feb 24, 2017)

The way I envision Hoosier State service being successful is that the route must be made into a regional commuter route, a similar service to the BNSF/Burlington, and South Shore Line trains currently serving Chicago. This means that the route must see regular and faster service, perhaps a train every two hours. The train service must be made to fit the commuter needs and not the other way around. Right now you have an LD type train on what can be considered a commuter route. I know the chances of regular service on the HS line are nil but I believe that my suggestion has some validity.


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## A Voice (Feb 24, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> The way I envision Hoosier State service being successful is that the route must be made into a regional commuter route, a similar service to the BNSF/Burlington, and South Shore Line trains currently serving Chicago. This means that the route must see regular and faster service, perhaps a train every two hours. The train service must be made to fit the commuter needs and not the other way around. Right now you have an LD type train on what can be considered a commuter route. I know the chances of regular service on the HS line are nil but I believe that my suggestion has some validity.


A commuter operation between Indianapolis and Chicago is neither a practical nor appropriate service model for the route. Passengers on the route - even after schedule and frequency improvements (a pipe dream at this point) - are generally not going to be daily commuters. Rather, what is ideally needed is something more akin to the _San Joaquins_ or _Lincoln Service_ to St. Louis; At least four or five daily departures spread every few hours throughout the day, supplemented by long-distance service. With such service wholly being an Indiana responsibility, I wouldn't hold my breath. In an ideal world, we'd have a new 403(b) program (or similar), which _might_ - emphasis on _might_ - get the ball rolling on this and several other viable regional routes.

However, regular service will remain on the _Hoosier State_ route, only it will be operated by Amtrak for the interim instead of Iowa Pacific.


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## west point (Feb 27, 2017)

Can it be duplicated ? Yes the failure certainly can.


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