# Restoration of New Orleans - Mobile - Jacksonville Gulf Coast Service



## DSS&A

Here a link to the news announcement to restore service qithin 24 months.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...t-to-return-to-gulf-coast.html?outputType=amp


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## Just-Thinking-51

Alabama still not on-board.
CSX not on-board.
Half of the funds needed.
No schedule.
No equipment.


Movement but the light at the end of tunnel is not a train.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Alabama still not on-board.
> CSX not on-board.
> Half of the funds needed.
> No schedule.
> No equipment.
> 
> 
> Movement but the light at the end of tunnel is not a train.



AL is too busy trying to bring its citizens back to the dark ages, this won’t happen in the foreseeable future.
Another reason why state funded corridors cant work under current law.


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## west point

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Alabama still not on-board.
> CSX not on-board.
> Half of the funds needed.
> No schedule.
> No equipment.
> 
> 
> Movement but the light at the end of tunnel is not a train.


 Especially no equipment


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## brianpmcdonnell17

west point said:


> Especially no equipment


By the time this train is operating, at least some of the Midwest cars will likely be in operation. Besides, all this train would really need is two short Horizon sets, one of which was just made available by the cancellation of the Hoosier State. I'm not saying there is an abundance of free equipment, but I doubt that would be the reason for the route not being implemented.


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## Lake Country

Why is it up to Amtrak or the FRA to provide funding for this line. It is 400 mi. To there fore less than the750 mi PRIIA requirement for local/state support. The Hoosier state is being cancelled at the end of this month because Indiana won't pay the 3 mil yr operating. Illinois is providing 100mil to start new service to the Quad Cities. No Amtrak support here. Seem so random appropations.


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## jis

It is not an operating grant to Amtrak. It is a CRISI grant for infrastructure improvement to the Southern Rail Commission. Comparing this to the Hoosier State situation is an apples to oranges comparison. Hoosier State is getting discontinued because of withdrawal of operating grant. This proposed service will not operate unless the states involved come up with the money for operating grant, which incidentally, some have funded partly from other federally funded accounts too. Hence the continuing discussion about Governor Ivey's comments about such grant materializing or not, that is going on in parallel. But until there is money to get the infrastructure in shape, operating grant is not going to cause trains to operate. Federal grants from various sources like CMAQ, CRISI and other accounts have been used by states to fund infrastructure development at various places in the past, so that is not out of the ordinary at all.


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## bretton88

To note, don't take it as a given that Alabama won't come up with the money. Through governor is right to ask for financial numbers and meet with the stakeholders to see if it makes sense. One of her big prior concerns was that the Federal funding would not be forthcoming. That concern has been answered. While I'm still skeptical that she'll approve it (I think the port, who is firmly anti passenger train has too much pull), it's not a given.


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## MikefromCrete

Amtrakfflyer said:


> AL is too busy trying to bring its citizens back to the dark ages, this won’t happen in the foreseeable future.
> Another reason why state funded corridors cant work under current law.




State funded corridors work great in the states willing to put up the cash. Alabama is too busy trying to retreat into the past to see much of a future. If the citizens of Alabama want this service, they need to speak up and tell their elected representatives.


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## Amtrakfflyer

They need to vote out the current majority in AL who want to keep the people repressed. The current administration in AL will fight anything for the public good. It’s up to the people to stop voting against their best interests. Unfortunately there’s a good chance Roy Moore may beat Doug Jones this time around, yes I know that’s Federal not State but same difference. The US really has become a tale of two countries.

All the more reason we need to keep nationwide Amtrak funded by the Feds. Hopefully the country will have a different make up politically in 10 years.


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## Larry H.

There had been talk of the City of New Orleans being extended to Orlando or somewhere that direction if a new route was again opened. Any idea if that would be a part of this deal. Would be a great boon to us here in Illinois or lots of people from the Chicago area that wants to go to Florida.


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## Devil's Advocate

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Hopefully the country will have a different make up politically in 10 years.



Doubtful. Then again the majority can't even elect the victor now so what difference will another ten years make? All indications are that the SCOTUS is about to enshrine this new normal for another generation or two. Maybe things will be different in 50+ years. Until then *this goose is cooked*.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Keep the faith. Amtrak and the US can have a great future it’s up to us to not give up the fight.


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## jis

Larry H. said:


> There had been talk of the City of New Orleans being extended to Orlando or somewhere that direction if a new route was again opened. Any idea if that would be a part of this deal. Would be a great boon to us here in Illinois or lots of people from the Chicago area that wants to go to Florida.



No. This is mainly to restore service between NOL and Mobile. Of course the infrastructure improvement will eventually be of use for the CONO extension to Orlando if it comes to pass.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Larry H. said:


> There had been talk of the City of New Orleans being extended to Orlando or somewhere that direction if a new route was again opened. Any idea if that would be a part of this deal. Would be a great boon to us here in Illinois or lots of people from the Chicago area that wants to go to Florida.


I'm certainly in favor of a NOL-Florida train, but even if it has through service to Chicago it will do little for Chicago-Florida travel besides eliminating the connection in DC. Besides the fact that there will be no service south of Orlando, the route takes longer than the route via DC. The travel time not including connections or station dwells is proposed to be 33:08 from CHI-JAX via New Orleans whereas using the current CL and SM route only takes 29:59, which is also interestingly 6 minutes faster than the former Floridian route. If the priority was Chicago-Florida, it would be much easier to just implement through cars between the SS and CL, which would have the added benefit of serving Miami, Tampa, and Raleigh.


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## neroden

Don't worry about the corrupt Republican judges. As FDR and Lincoln knew, court-packing is easy once you get control of the House, the Senate and the Presidency. The Presidency is a done deal, as is the House.

Worry about the Senate.


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## crescent-zephyr

What would the fastest Chicago to Florida train be with current infrustructure? 

Chicago to Philadelphia and then straight South?


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## brianpmcdonnell17

crescent-zephyr said:


> What would the fastest Chicago to Florida train be with current infrustructure?
> 
> Chicago to Philadelphia and then straight South?


Definitely not through Philadelphia: the fastest I know of is the whole CL route followed by the SM route south of WAS. However, it is possible there is a more direct route that is faster which Amtrak has never operated on.


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## AGM.12

At the risk of veering off topic, not all Republicans are knuckle dragging troglodytes who are anti passenger rail. This proposed service is bipartisan as are the leadership in passenger rail friendly states like VA and NC. I believe in fairness and honesty. I am sure everyone else does too.


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## Ziv

I hear you, Brian. Even if there was a through service from Chicago to Florida via New Orleans, I don't think its main strength would be taking passengers from Chicago to Florida, it would be in making it much easier for people in Memphis, Jackson or Carbondale to get to Mobile, Talahassee or on to Orlando. I think that the NOL to Mobile and eventually on to FL service would be best serving the passengers if it was not an extension of another route but an independent train that has good departure times to make transferring from one train to another not a crippling problem. 



brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I'm certainly in favor of a NOL-Florida train, but even if it has through service to Chicago it will do little for Chicago-Florida travel besides eliminating the connection in DC. Besides the fact that there will be no service south of Orlando, the route takes longer than the route via DC. The travel time not including connections or station dwells is proposed to be 33:08 from CHI-JAX via New Orleans whereas using the current CL and SM route only takes 29:59, which is also interestingly 6 minutes faster than the former Floridian route. If the priority was Chicago-Florida, it would be much easier to just implement through cars between the SS and CL, which would have the added benefit of serving Miami, Tampa, and Raleigh.


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## Amtrakfflyer

AGM.12 said:


> At the risk of veering off topic, not all Republicans are knuckle dragging troglodytes who are anti passenger rail. This proposed service is bipartisan as are the leadership in passenger rail friendly states like VA and NC. I believe in fairness and honesty. I am sure everyone else does too.




Agreed and Republican Senator Moran from Kansas of all places is passenger rails biggest advocate at the moment. There is a stark difference between the two parties though.


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## Bostontoallpoints

Lot of politics on this post. People forget that some of the biggest cuts to Amtrak took place during knuckle dragging Democrat troglodyte administrations.


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## jis

Bostontoallpoints said:


> Lot of politics on this post. People forget that some of the biggest cuts to Amtrak took place during knuckle dragging Democrat troglodyte administrations.


Although, truth be told, even then the Republicans in general did not oppose those cuts too much.  Yup, lived through those "save the trains" campaigns, and we could never quite raise the Republicans from their slumber enough to get anywhere near to block any of it. They generally cheered right along.


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## fredmcain

AGM.12 said:


> At the risk of veering off topic, not all Republicans are knuckle dragging troglodytes who are anti passenger rail. This proposed service is bipartisan as are the leadership in passenger rail friendly states like VA and NC. I believe in fairness and honesty. I am sure everyone else does too.



You know, I feel like I have been watching the same movie over and over again since about 1970. It seems like Democrats talk very highly of rail when they are out of power but then when they get into power, the talk of rail just seems to quietly go away. It seems that they want to scrape every thin dime they can together to fund their so-called "social programs" and spending big bucks on rail gets in the awkward way of their agenda.

Meanwhile, Repubs are so business focused that they don't want to spend tax payers dollars on what they perceive as a poor business model (i.e. doesn't "make money" or "show a profit")

So, what we end up with is basically, which ever party happens to win an election - rail loses. It's the ol' "heads you win tails I lose" scenario".

We can change this - but, I don't know how.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain


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## Devil's Advocate

fredmcain said:


> You know, I feel like I have been watching the same movie over and over again since about 1970. It seems like Democrats talk very highly of rail when they are out of power but then when they get into power, the talk of rail just seems to quietly go away.


I'm honestly not sure where you're getting this from. President Obama (D) and a Democratically controlled congress provided $8 billion for improved passenger rail funding as part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009. Unfortunately, much of this money was returned/refused/ignored by the likes of Scott Walker (R), Rick Scott (R), and John Kasich (R). Obama also negotiated another $13 billion in funding for projects between New York and New Jersey. As expected this funding agreement was quickly undone and abandoned by Trump (R).



fredmcain said:


> It seems that they want to scrape every thin dime they can together to fund their so-called "social programs" and spending big bucks on rail gets in the awkward way of their agenda.


I’ve read this statement several times and yet I still have no idea what you’re _really_ trying to say. By any rational assessment government funded passenger rail would fall into “so-called” social programs.



fredmcain said:


> Meanwhile, Repubs are so business focused that they don't want to spend tax payers dollars on what they perceive as a poor business model (i.e. doesn't "make money" or "show a profit") So, what we end up with is basically, which ever party happens to win an election - rail loses. It's the ol' "heads you win tails I lose" scenario". We can change this - but, I don't know how.


What you seem to be asking between the lines is “How can we improve government funded passenger rail while continuing to elect anti-rail politicians?"


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## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> I’ve read this statement several times and yet I still have no idea what you’re _really_ trying to say. By any rational assessment government funded passenger rail would fall into “so-called” social programs.



If you substitute "social programs" with "taking my tax dollars to help lazy people", the argument becomes more recognizable.


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## Gary Behling

Ryan said:


> If you substitute "social programs" with "taking my tax dollars to help lazy people", the argument becomes more recognizable.



One thing that people must get clear--- quit taking the phrase "Social Program" as some sort of smear. Many Social Programs are good. Social Security, Medicare or anything that benefits society as a whole. If people want to call Amtrak funding a social program, fine. What kind of program is highway funding? Be ready to hit back with proper retorts


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## Ryan

When people stop using it as a smear, I’ll stop taking it that way.


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## AmtrakBlue

Gary Behling said:


> One thing that people must get clear--- quit taking the phrase "Social Program" as some sort of smear. Many Social Programs are good. Social Security, Medicare or anything that benefits society as a whole. If people want to call Amtrak funding a social program, fine. What kind of program is highway funding? Be ready to hit back with proper retorts



Social Security & Medicare is money that WE, not the govt, paid for our use only. The govt has been stealing our “retirement savings” to pay for things others use. Those things should be paid for with taxes.


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## WalterIII

Well, back to the issue at hand, it is good to see something happening on the Gulf Coast! I will for the most part stay away from politics, but will take a shot, or two, at John Mica, and even praise him, a little! 

I spent 32 years with a Class 1 railway, retired (early) in March 2017, and am now having fun and consulting! Long time Amtrak/VIA and predecessors rider continent wide, and somewhat familiar (in detail) with certain rail networks in the east, and in particular, the southeast! 

I actually completed a round trip on the Sunset from Jacksonville to New Orleans (on a pair of office cars on the rear) in the late 1990's, and tried to make another one in 2005 from Orlando as a fare paying passenger. However, we got bused from Sanford, FL to NOLA due to a water main break washing out the "A" line near DeLand, FL. That last bus-rail trip was all the way to LAX and on to Seattle and occurred about 6 weeks before Katrina. NOLA to LAX we were 18 hours late (we were about 5 hours late out of NOLA), and LAX to Seattle, well, we never got there by rail. They turned the Coast Starlight at Portland and bused us to Seattle, arrived about 9 hours late. Still, apart from the two overnight bus rides, it was a fun trip, got to see Mt Shasta at high noon! UP was in "melt down" out west that summer (the second melt down after the UP-SP merger) in large part due to a former CSX manager (who shall not be named here) who was "running" UP's western operation that summer, into the ground. 

So, I know a little about the Sunset route; here are some comments and observations on the Gulf Coast portion of the route:

1. As noted, good to see something happening

2. Service options - several years ago there was a study on restoring service NOLA to ORL that you have probably seen. As I recall three options were reviewed and posted at Amtrak's website.
- restoring the original tri-weekly Sunset
- extending the City of New Orleans, or part of it, to Orlando on a daily basis
- a separate stand alone daily day train

The Sunset restoration option had the old ongoing problems: tri-weekly service, and a 3 night transcon train over three major class 1 carriers (UP-BNSF-CSXT) that was never on time.

The best option in terms of total ridership and revenue, and most expensive to implement (equipment) was extending the City of New Orleans. This option not only restored service on a schedule similar to the Sunset but would also boost ridership on the CHI-NOLA portion as well on a train which has capacity. Last option I heard for this was for a coach, coach baggage, lounge and sleeper to continue past NOLA to ORL. But, it would be more expensive to run and restore, and who knows if there are enough cars. Orlando would be the destination because of maintaining Superliners at Sanford; also going all the way to Miami would have required another set of cars, or more.

The stand alone train day train studied (NOLA-ORL) would not have connected same day at NOLA with anything. Evidently a stand alone is what they are looking at doing, but over just part of the route. I think I saw they were looking at two round trips a day, and I expect it would have connections with the three other trains serving NOLA. Of course it does not get to Florida, but would serve what's left of the gulf coast casinos!

All three options had that 750 mile issue for funding (states have to cover the cost) even though the route was a part of the national network at one time. NOLA - JAX is 616 rail miles; NOLA-ORL is 758, NOLA-Sanford 739; they focused on the "new" route portion of 616 miles being what counts. 

Warning - John Mica critique and praise follows: I suspect the 750 mile limit was picked (and certainly approved by) John Mica, Federal District 7 Representative (Central Florida / Sanford area) from 1993 to 2017, and was picked specifically with the Sunset restoration in mind. A complicated man, he often praised Amtrak's Auto Train service and showed up for the opening of the new terminal there a few years ago (the funding for which he voted against) and had no issue with securing over $1 billion in Federal funding for SunRail Commuter service. But he had his sights on the Sunset Limited every day he was in office - it was his poster child of everything wrong with Amtrak and he wanted the train gone (even though it served his district) and it would never come back while he was in DC and in the majority. He was always quick to call Amtrak a "Soviet Style" company, which he did for years, and harped on the subsidized "luxury meal service" (yes, we can thank him for the Silver Starve, idle $3+ million Viewliner II diners we all waited some 20-30 years to enjoy, the mandate to "break even on food" by 2020 and the possible demise of decent food service in general). On the plus side for John, at the end of April I rode the SunRail service he did support from Poinciana to DeLand and back. Excellent service, and ridership is picking up, passengers I talked to loved it. Service to Poinciana only started at the beginning of the year and the large park and ride lot there was 70% full; should be extended to Lakeland and Tampa.

OK - done with politics and back to the Gulf Coast route! 

3. Florida problems - as you may know in order to restore passenger service on the Panhandle someone will have to pay for the installation of PTC between Baldwin, FL (just west of Jacksonville) to about Pensacola (not sure of the exact point, it could be as far west as Flomaton, AL or as close as Tallahassee). CSX just sold the line from just west of Baldwin to just east of Pensacola to a short line operator, RailUSA, LLC, to be known as the Florida Gulf and Atlantic Railroad (FGA). That adds a level of complication, but as a short line they might be able to get and exemption for PTC.

4. Equipment - given timing, your speculation on using Horizon cars displaced from the mid-west is probably right on the mark.

5. Other routes - I noticed the mention of the Capitol Limited - Silver Star route. Before the Capitol went Superliner there was for a while a through Chicago - Miami coach for a year or more using that connection. As for Chicago-Atlanta-Miami there was a study of that route in the 1990's and the cost of start up was over $400 million (about half for the equipment, half for track/signal/station work). I suspect that would be close to a $ 1 billion now. Point being, once you lose it, well, it's next to impossible to get it back. As for the old Floridian route, forget it. 

Wrapping up, as for Alabama, well......perhaps they will see the light! For the past few years all of the communities from New Orleans to Jacksonville wanted to see restoration of service. Even Pensacola is for it now, they got rid of the mayor they had a few years ago who proclaimed he would not let any Amtrak train stop in his city because in his view it was a "communist company". That's for real, you just cannot make this up!

At least something is advancing.

Walter


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## Gary Behling

Walter,
I realize this is an Amtrak forum and day-dreaming and talking about the old days of luxury trains is more fun, but maybe one shouldn't be so quick to leave politics behind. I know you want to see all these improvements made with no money in Amtrak's budget to do it, but seriously, if you REALLY want positive change in Amtrak, we have to prepare the groundwork first. Politics is that groundwork.


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## jis

SunRail first needs to complete its original route upto Deland and start running on weekends, and build and operate a link to Orlando International Airport before trying to go to Tampa. They can barely keep the current compact of counties together what with Volusia threatening to walk away if the Deland segment is not built soon. They have also talked about Daytona on occasions, and this is a county that is already part of the compact. Adding a few more counties to the compact is going to be a formidable task to say the least.

I also don't understand why people keep talking of "daylight service" between New Orleans and Orlando. A journey that takes 16-18 hours cannot be a daylight service while avoiding somewhat unpalatable times at at least one end. The only way for it to connect to anything at one or both ends to take advantage of the network effect is to make it an overnight journey. And that is exactly what is proposed by the Southern Rail Commission which owns the planning process.


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## railbuck

crescent-zephyr said:


> What would the fastest Chicago to Florida train be with current infrustructure?
> 
> Chicago to Philadelphia and then straight South?


Straight South from Philadelphia would involve a very long bridge from the Outer Banks to the Bahamas. Chicago to Cleveland or Charleston and then straight South would hit Florida, but lacks infrastructure.

If a train were to be routed Chicago to Charlottesville to Greensboro to Cary to Miami, the track distance would be virtually the same (if my calculations are correct) as the connection through WAS; using the current timetable it would take about 5 hours longer (though 2 hours shorter when the wait between 30 and 97 is factored in). Track work would be needed at Charlottesville, IIRC; not sure about the other connections.

Anyone adventurous enough to try that route on 50, 19, 80, and 91 would arrive in Miami over 71 hours after leaving Chicago, spending only 45-1/2 hours of that time on the trains.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

railbuck said:


> Straight South from Philadelphia would involve a very long bridge from the Outer Banks to the Bahamas. Chicago to Cleveland or Charleston and then straight South would hit Florida, but lacks infrastructure.
> 
> If a train were to be routed Chicago to Charlottesville to Greensboro to Cary to Miami, the track distance would be virtually the same (if my calculations are correct) as the connection through WAS; using the current timetable it would take about 5 hours longer (though 2 hours shorter when the wait between 30 and 97 is factored in). Track work would be needed at Charlottesville, IIRC; not sure about the other connections.
> 
> Anyone adventurous enough to try that route on 50, 19, 80, and 91 would arrive in Miami over 71 hours after leaving Chicago, spending only 45-1/2 hours of that time on the trains.


Greensboro and Cary would also need major track work for a train to operate that route. In Cary, the routes from Charlotte and Miami approach nearly parallel to one another facing the same direction. Also, while you would gain Indianapolis and Cincinnati, you would lose Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Washington, and Richmond in addition to taking significantly longer as you stated.


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## tricia

In my dreams, Amtrak runs a train from Chicago to Florida, stopping in Asheville NC along the way. If not Asheville, at least Knoxville or Chattanooga.


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## Amtrakfflyer

It definitely is one of the many holes in the network


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## Ziv

If there were a train from Chicago to Florida, are the Smokey Mountains the main problem with geographical features? It looks like the Chattahoochee National Park and the Nantahala National Forest would force any trains to go either west of them through Nashville, Chattanooga, Atlanta and Macon (via Tallahassee?) or east of them through Knoxville, Asheville and either Augusta or Columbia and then on to Savannah? 
Either way, it looks like it would be a great train ride. Judging from the sedate speed of the Cap Limited from southern Pennsylvania through Harpers Ferry, this might not be the speediest part of the trip from Chicago to Florida.
Not sure what the ridership would be like. I imagine there are people on this site that did similar trips in the pre-Amtrak days.


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## JustOnce

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Definitely not through Philadelphia: the fastest I know of is the whole CL route followed by the SM route south of WAS. However, it is possible there is a more direct route that is faster which Amtrak has never operated on.


I ran the numbers a while back comparing the schedule for the old Floridian route vs. a Capitol Limited+Silver Meteor routing. Assuming a direct, no-waiting connection to the Meteor, the schedule would be around 39 hours, while the Floridian took 40 hours (really slow track).

The route might be slightly faster if they ran it along the B&O between Chicago and Pittsburgh since that routing is more southerly than the NS Chicago Line (NYC Water Level Route). I know that line is PTC-equipped but I'm not sure what the track speeds are.

Besides CSX won't let Amtrak anywhere near that line, the main CHI-NYC (NJ) intermodal route. Even if they did, I bet Amtrak would constantly get stuck behind trains outlawed, waiting to enter the yard, or waiting to recrew at Willard and North Baltimore yards.


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## crescent-zephyr

It seems like Chicago - Cincinnati and straight down the NS line through Chattanooga and Atlanta would be a fairly quick route chi-Florida. But that’s for a brand new train route.... not happening soon I know.


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## Seaboard92

For a Chicago-Florida route there are several choices. 

TS=Current Timetable Speed. 

The best. Chicago-Indy (Hoosier State Route)-Louisville (TS 40 MPH IND-LVL)-Nashville (TS 50-60 range LVl-BNA)-Chattanooga-Atlanta (TS 50-60 Range BNA-ATL)-Macon-Jacksonville (TS 50-60 ATL-JAX)-Miami. 

The second Best route 
Chicago-Indy-Cincinnati (Cardinal Route)-Knoxville (TS 50-60 CIN-KVL)-Chattanooga-Atlanta (TS 50-60 KVL-ATL)-Macon-Jacksonville (TS 50-60 ATL-JAX)-Miami. 

Remember a key thing about a long haul service it’s more of a marathon so average speeds are fairly low and most routes are under 50 mph on average. While short haul corridors are more of sprints.


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## tricia

Seaboard92 said:


> For a Chicago-Florida route there are several choices.
> 
> TS=Current Timetable Speed.
> 
> The best. Chicago-Indy (Hoosier State Route)-Louisville (TS 40 MPH IND-LVL)-Nashville (TS 50-60 range LVl-BNA)-Chattanooga-Atlanta (TS 50-60 Range BNA-ATL)-Macon-Jacksonville (TS 50-60 ATL-JAX)-Miami.
> 
> The second Best route
> Chicago-Indy-Cincinnati (Cardinal Route)-Knoxville (TS 50-60 CIN-KVL)-Chattanooga-Atlanta (TS 50-60 KVL-ATL)-Macon-Jacksonville (TS 50-60 ATL-JAX)-Miami.
> 
> Remember a key thing about a long haul service it’s more of a marathon so average speeds are fairly low and most routes are under 50 mph on average. While short haul corridors are more of sprints.



Any of these would vastly improve connectivity from the Southeast to western trains.


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## west point

The mid west to Florida direct ? Any direct route is going to be slower than desired. It is all about geography. The glacier age caused mountains to be formed in a north east south west direction. Getting across that many mountains and valleys is difficult that are as close as 15 miles peak to peak. For example the land NW of Chattanooga is over 1000 feet higher than CHA.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> For a Chicago-Florida route there are several choices.
> 
> TS=Current Timetable Speed.
> 
> The best. Chicago-Indy (Hoosier State Route)-Louisville (TS 40 MPH IND-LVL)-Nashville (TS 50-60 range LVl-BNA)-Chattanooga-Atlanta (TS 50-60 Range BNA-ATL)-Macon-Jacksonville (TS 50-60 ATL-JAX)-Miami.
> 
> The second Best route
> Chicago-Indy-Cincinnati (Cardinal Route)-Knoxville (TS 50-60 CIN-KVL)-Chattanooga-Atlanta (TS 50-60 KVL-ATL)-Macon-Jacksonville (TS 50-60 ATL-JAX)-Miami.
> 
> Remember a key thing about a long haul service it’s more of a marathon so average speeds are fairly low and most routes are under 50 mph on average. While short haul corridors are more of sprints.



From the Routes and Schedule Committee Report of RPA at Rail Nation DC, they calculated from 35 1/2 hours to 38 hours and 35 minutes using a routing serving Chicago, Indy, Louisville, and Atlanta. They found a slightly faster routing at 33 1/2 hrs to 36 hrs, 5 min but it served Evansville instead of Indianapolis and Louisville.

https://www.railpassengers.org/site...es_schedules_commitee_-_wednesday_morning.pdf


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## ScouseAndy

So I know you have this rule that for any route under 750(?) miles states have to fund the short fall rather than federal government. But what about extending a already established LD route? Or since last I checked the NO to Florida segment is still technically 'suspended', the restarting of a suspend segment of a route? Who picks up the bill legally in these situations?


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## Devil's Advocate

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Keep the faith. Amtrak and the US can have a great future it’s up to us to not give up the fight.


As expected and solidified today, even the most excessive and abusive examples of partisan gerrymandering have now been blessed by the highest level of judicial precedent, probably for a generation or more. To those who still feel faith in a system so easily undermined and so incredibly difficult to repair, I wish you only the very best of luck.


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## lordsigma

The current Amtrak admin would probably like to look at gulf coast as an opportunity to look at their plan for restructuring some long distance routes into corridors. Anderson would probably want to do a NOL - Mobile route and then a Mobile to Florida route with a train change in the middle over an overnight train the whole route.


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## Ryan

If only we had some insight into what Amtrak thought on the topic.

Fortunately, we do:


> A recently awarded Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements (CRISI) grant to the Southern Rail Commission that will facilitate the restoration of Amtrak service between New Orleans, Louisiana and Mobile, Alabama illustrates the types of projects Amtrak needs to be pursuing if we are to contribute to meeting growing transportation demands in underserved regions and corridors. That 145-mile corridor was last served by a long-distance train that was poorly patronized because it operated only three days a week, was invariably hours late, and served Mobile in the middle of the night. The planned new service will operate twice daily during daytime hours. While there is still much more work to complete before this project is fully realized, it is an example of the type of future investments Amtrak could be making across the country.



MOB-Florida isn't even on the map. The LD train that used to cover that ground hasn't been around in over ten years.


----------



## jis

Actually the categorical statement about Mobile - Florida not being on the map is a bit overstated. The Southern Rail Commission had come up with three alternatives, one including Anderson's alleged favorite bus bridge too. For the moment the SRC has selected pursuing two of those, one, the easier to realize is the NOL - MOB. The second, harder to realize, which involves extending the CONO to Florida is still under consideration, but on the back burner while efforts are concentrated on getting NOL - MOB done first, since it is easier.


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## lordsigma

jis said:


> Actually the categorical statement about Mobile - Florida not being on the map is a bit overstated. The Southern Rail Commission had come up with three alternatives, one including Anderson's alleged favorite bus bridge too. For the moment the SRC has selected pursuing two of those, one, the easier to realize is the NOL - MOB. The second, harder to realize, which involves extending the CONO to Florida is still under consideration, but on the back burner while efforts are concentrated on getting NOL - MOB done first, since it is easier.


That sounds like a decent way to do it. There does seem to still be interest in the Tallahassee area to restore some kind of service.


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## Rail Freak

tricia said:


> Any of these would vastly improve connectivity from the Southeast to western trains.


I'm to the point where I fly to Chicago,Denver,El Paso etc. to connect to western trains!!!


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## Rail Freak

For me, the flying to/from cities to take western trains isn't entirely a connectivity issue, it's also because we Floridians are limited in our routes in & out, which can get monotonous. Then take into consideration the food service changes on the SS, CL, & LSL, I just decided to fly & save AGR Points!!!


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## DonNewcomb

west point said:


> The mid west to Florida direct ? Any direct route is going to be slower than desired. It is all about geography. ....


 The old L&N Humming Bird ran east out of New Orleans to Flomaton on the Fla/Ala line then turned straight north to Chicago. Maybe that's not what you mean by "Florida"?


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## dogbert617

Rail Freak said:


> For me, the flying to/from cities to take western trains isn't entirely a connectivity issue, it's also because we Floridians are limited in our routes in & out, which can get monotonous. Then take into consideration the food service changes on the SS, CL, & LSL, I just decided to fly & save AGR Points!!!



It's too bad from Florida that there aren't any direct routes in and out of that state, except for the 2 Silver trains. I guess one from that state could fly to NOLA and ride the *CONO or Sunset north and west from there, or to say like Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, Fort Worth, etc to ride the Texas Eagle?

Too bad the Palmetto starts/ends in Savannah. Since otherwise, that'd be a way to ride the Silver Meteor route in daytime. Unless you do a stopover in Savannah, ride Palmetto north, then ride a Silver train back to Florida. And of course, one could transfer in NC west to one of those state trains, then board Crescent southwest.


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## jis

Some Gulf Coast news. Pensacola to Baldwin is now a Short Line operation. Apparently Amtrak has reduced the hope level for passenger service on that segment for the local folks...

https://news.wfsu.org/post/florida-gulf-and-atlantic-assumes-ownership-north-florida-rail-line


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## chrsjrcj

The state of Florida has no issue spending billions on new toll roads and double decking highways, but shudder at the idea of funding more than the minimum for decent transit.


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## jis

chrsjrcj said:


> The state of Florida has no issue spending billions on new toll roads and double decking highways, but shudder at the idea of funding more than the minimum for decent transit.


Yeah. FDOT has never come across a highway interchange idea that it did not like. Very incongruously though all their divided highways designs include a right of way that is wide enough to accommodate at least a double track railway or other guideway. That is what made it relatively easy for VTUSA to get easements along the highways without spending too much money on land acquisition upto Orlando and now apparently between Orlando and Tampa too. But gd forbid if they have to fund any guideway based transportation! It is a strange animal.


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## DonNewcomb

jis said:


> Some Gulf Coast news. Pensacola to Baldwin is now a Short Line operation. Apparently Amtrak has reduced the hope level for passenger service on that segment for the local folks...


IMHO, unless the section between Mobile and P'cola were to be completely re-engineered, it stood little chance. The combination of that wiggle up to Folmaton and back down again, combined with the lack of PTC was just too much. The route being so far from the beach, which is what would attract most travelers, didn't help either.


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## velotrain

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Movement but the light at the end of tunnel is not a train.



This reminded me of an old New Yorker cartoon which shows a dejected looking man walking into a tunnel with the portal behind him in the distance.
"On discovering that the light at the end of the tunnel is New Jersey."


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## west point

Dorian could mean the end of the route now that CSX has sold it. Too early to tell yet!


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## railiner

west point said:


> Dorian could mean the end of the route now that CSX has sold it. Too early to tell yet!


What would be cool, would be if the UP bought the route...they could then improve it enough to run Los Angeles/Jacksonville double stack "land bridge" trains, that would be serious competition for the Panama Canal....
But then, not sure if they would welcome Amtrak back to the route...


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## jis

I have not checked for myself, but apparently land bridge trains are not price competitive with Panamax Super Container ships. What the railroads in the east are trying to do is to compete for Containers carried by Panamax ships for the land part of its journey to its final destination in the east coast.

There is great concern that ports like Miami may lost out to ports like Savannah, and Norfolk, and even Port of Elizabeth etc in the NY/NJ area because the offloading is closer to the major markets and requires less ground transport.


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## NativeSon5859

https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_r...cle_8c4aaece-ca9b-11e9-93c2-6b57573c9745.html

Federal grant received for first year of NOL-MOE operations.


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## Just-Thinking-51

> $4.36 million grant to cover initial operating expenses from New Orleans to Mobile, Alabama.



Excellent some operation money, some capital funds. Still seem to be a bit underwhelming, hopefully the states might jump in now.


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## DonNewcomb

More local reporting: https://www.sunherald.com/news/local/article234512752.html


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## DonNewcomb

Council members are scheduled to vote Tuesday on whether to commit as much as $3 million over three years to operate Amtrak trains through the city.
https://www.wxxv25.com/2019/12/30/leaders-mobile-alabama-vote-funding-amtrak-service/


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## Amtrakfflyer

Unfortunately not holding my breath. Hope for the best all the same.



DonNewcomb said:


> Council members are scheduled to vote Tuesday on whether to commit as much as $3 million over three years to operate Amtrak trains through the city.
> https://www.wxxv25.com/2019/12/30/leaders-mobile-alabama-vote-funding-amtrak-service/


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## chrsjrcj

Has there been any local advocacy efforts? If you live in the city, it probably wouldn’t hurt to call their offices.


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## DonNewcomb

Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile Intercity Passenger Rail Feasibility Study


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## DonNewcomb

Rather disappointing news.


> Leaders in Alabama’s port city of Mobile are dimming chances for reviving passenger train service along the northern Gulf Coast.
> 
> Member of the City Council’s finance committee withheld support for funding service through Alabama’s port city during a meeting Tuesday. Al.com reported the full council could vote on the issue next week.
> 
> Amtrak hasn’t operated along the coast since Hurricane Katrina in 2005. The Southern Rail Commission supports restarting passenger trains between Mobile and New Orleans with stops in Mississippi.
> 
> Louisiana and Mississippi have approved funding to restart the trains, but Alabama hasn’t. Officials at the Alabama State Port say passenger trains could disrupt freight service through the port, and city leaders including Mayor Sandy Stimpson have expressed concerns.
> 
> “There is a lot that needs to be explained before I can support it,” said council member Joel Daves, chairman of the finance committee.
> 
> Mobile is being asked to commit as much as $3 million over three years to pay for Amtrak service starting in 2023, when Amtrak service is expected to resume. The city commitment doesn’t include potential capital costs to upgrade the existing rail line. An additional $2.2 million is needed from an Alabama-based source to finance those improvements, but Gov. Kay Ivey isn’t backing the project.
> 
> Mississippi has dedicated $15 million, Louisiana has approved $10 million and Amtrak has set aside $6 million toward capital improvements along the rail line. The project faces a deadline of Feb. 5 for getting local funding to match federal funding.



Sorry for the double posting. This is where I wanted to post this article the other post had received replies by the time I relocated this thread.


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## Greg

This whole charade has been one of the biggest fiasco dog and pony shows that I have seen in my 61 years. Amtrak is not coming back to the gulf coast and they need to quit wasting the money dangling carrots before us.


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## Amtrakfflyer

That can be said for the majority of Red States at this point in time. It’s up to their citizens to vote different officials in if they want a change. 

Look at VA the past few years the people spoke at the ballet box and one of the many changes is a robust rail system coming. 

Unfortunately I see another decade to a full generation before most Red State citizens stop voting against what most outsiders would say is their best interests.



Greg said:


> This whole charade has been one of the biggest fiasco dog and pony shows that I have seen in my 61 years. Amtrak is not coming back to the gulf coast and they need to quit wasting the money dangling carrots before us.


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## neroden

The city which would benefit most from the route is Mobile, and their city council apparently can't be bothered? Seems typical of the self-destructive attitude I associate with the Deep South.


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## Qapla

Tallahassee and Jacksonville are both supportive of restoring Amtrak from NOL to JAX - which includes all those places in between, like Mobile ... even Amtrak "says" they are in favor of it - they even ran a train through the route a few years ago tying to get support. Alabama and the freight lines have been part of the "sticking" problems in restoring this route.


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## nullptr

Maybe not as hopeless as it seems?


*Mobile mayor says he expects to ‘get to yes’ on city-funded Amtrak service*

https://www.fox10tv.com/news/mobile...cle_c41cf7ac-42e2-11ea-912f-b7e30c738c76.html


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## Palmland

neroden said:


> The city which would benefit most from the route is Mobile, and their city council apparently can't be bothered? Seems typical of the self-destructive attitude I associate with the Deep South.



While far from perfect, especially in regard to reducing poverty, the Deep South seems to be out pacing other parts of the country, especially the rust belt states, as industry and those leaving high tax states head south. As population continues to grow, funding Amtrak will become more important.


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## Devil's Advocate

Palmland said:


> Deep South seems to be out pacing other parts of the country, especially the rust belt states, as industry and those leaving high tax states head south.


Imagine being proud of your ability to undermine American wages and benefits in other states and winning by default as the lowest and least ethical bidder. Bravo.


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## Palmland

Wow, DA. Tell that to all the previously unemployed workers with jobs in auto assembly plants and other industry in the south. Sure wages are lower, and so is the cost of living. Move on down, you might like it.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Been there done that. Lived there four years when wife taught for the Navy power school in CHS. Downtown CHS is a great place to visit for the weekend but that’s it. Ten miles away it’s a different story. I was down there a few months ago checking on our old house that we rent now. It’s a second world country quality of life, healthcare, and education at best.


Frustrating and sad. I have black renters now and the neighbors call them the N word when they are outside . On my trip I actually went to the sheriffs office to inquire about what we could do about it. The clerk at the desks response was that this area doesn’t like rentals and more so with black tenants. Nothing could be done about it. I was speechless.


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## jis

Palmland said:


> Wow, DA. Tell that to all the previously unemployed workers with jobs in auto assembly plants and other industry in the south. Sure wages are lower, and so is the cost of living. Move on down, you might like it.


DA lives in Texas. I don't think he needs to move anywhere to get the first hand experience


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## Devil's Advocate

Palmland said:


> Wow, DA. Tell that to all the previously unemployed workers with jobs in auto assembly plants and other industry in the south. Sure wages are lower, and so is the cost of living. Move on down, you might like it.


Tell this to all the previously employed workers who used to have good jobs but now live on subsistence income. This is nothing but lazy circular logic which doesn't go anywhere because it's not based on a rational perspective. You should be thankful everyone has not simply "moved down" to the South because then you'd be forced to compete with a much larger labor pool for the same number of jobs. My own state of Texas benefits from policies that exacerbate domestic arbitrage, and is proudly moving toward debtor status at the federal level, but that's nothing to crow about.


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## Palmland

Thank you for your comments, DA. Perhaps we should return to a discussion of Gulf Coast service.


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## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Tell this to all the previously employed workers who used to have good jobs but now live on subsistence income. This is nothing but lazy circular logic which doesn't go anywhere because it's not based on a rational perspective. You should be thankful everyone has not simply "moved down" to the South because then you'd be forced to compete with a much larger labor pool for the same number of jobs. My own state of Texas benefits from policies that exacerbate domestic arbitrage, and is proudly moving toward debtor status at the federal level, but that's nothing to crow about.


Well, we'll see what happens when the corporate overlords figure out that they can get even cheaper wages and even less regulation by moving to Latin America than they have in the southern states. Actually, a lot of them have done this. 

To get back to transportation, not only do they not fund railroads down there, they don't fund roads very well (except maybe for Texas). I-95 was pothole city all the way up from Savannah to Virginia. Really wants to make you move your factory down there and have your products jostled around on the drive up to market.


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## Suze10860

Haven’t read all of the posts in this thread, but did want to add my two cents.

As a born and bred Northeastern girl, yearning for the day when my husband and I move down to our Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, future-retirement home, I’m crossing my fingers that Alabama reconsiders and approves the necessary funding for this project.

I know that Mississippi and Louisiana have pledged their full support and I can only hope that Mobile, Alabama, will do the same!

BTW: The Mississippi Gulf Coast is one of the best kept secrets as far as retirement living - at least here in New Jersey!! Can’t wait to be there full time. A railroad line with a stop within walking distance from our adorable little beach cottage would surely be like the cherry on the cake for us!


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## west point

Hope your beach cottage is on stilts and has hurricane ties. Otherwise getting insurance may not be possible.


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## Suze10860

Not to get too far off topic, but we've had the house for over 3 years, it's not in a flood zone, it is walking distance to a beautiful new marina and the one-time train depot, and home owners insurance isn't an issue. It's actually comparable to what we pay in premiums here in Northern NJ - where everything is overpriced!!! Again, most people have no idea what they're missing! But thanks for your concern!


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## jiml

MARC Rider said:


> To get back to transportation, not only do they not fund railroads down there, they don't fund roads very well (except maybe for Texas). I-95 was pothole city all the way up from Savannah to Virginia. Really wants to make you move your factory down there and have your products jostled around on the drive up to market.


To an observer, the state-to-state differences in road quality are really quite stunning. We are currently driving on I-65 to Florida and just left Kentucky's stretch - 3 lanes each way of beautifully kept concrete roadway - to cross into Tennessee. It was like a different country. Two lanes of badly-laid asphalt, with potholes, craters and crumbing shoulders. Some places look like they may have started work by scraping the latest surface, then given up leaving the detrius of that process to be scattered everywhere. It doesn't bode well for those hoping for TN to contribute to a passenger train.

(In fairness to Tennessee, many jurisdictions have different priorities for tax dollars, but this contrast was quite obvious.)


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## MikefromCrete

jiml said:


> To an observer, the state-to-state differences in road quality are really quite stunning. We are currently driving on I-65 to Florida and just left Kentucky's stretch - 3 lanes each way of beautifully kept concrete roadway - to cross into Tennessee. It was like a different country. Two lanes of badly-laid asphalt, with potholes, craters and crumbing shoulders. Some places look like they may have started work by scraping the latest surface, then given up leaving the detrius of that process to be scattered everywhere. It doesn't bode well for those hoping for TN to contribute to a passenger train.
> 
> (In fairness to Tennessee, many jurisdictions have different priorities for tax dollars, but this contrast was quite obvious.)




Don't forget: Mitch McConnel'l's wife is the U.S. secretary of transportation. I'm sure lots of federal money flows into Kentucky.


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## Anthony V

Back on topic. It looks like the train will run to Mobile! The city council voted "YES!" on the new service.
https://www.wlox.com/2020/02/04/amtrak-span-coast-after-mobile-votes-allow-rail-service/


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## Suze10860

That is so wonderful!! Thank you for posting that.


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## Palmland

That is good news. Suze, we’ll be in that neck of the woods for our son and family spring break at Orange Beach, AL. They’re also NJ residents. Glad to see Mobile got on board with this. I’ll bet this train becomes very popular with the coastal communities.

Now, just connect Mobile to Atlanta that is the economic engine for that part of the country. Maybe shift the Crescent back to its original route from Atlanta on the Southern and L&N RR that would include Montgomery, the state Capitol. Maybe a stub train then, Atlanta to Birmingham and perhaps Meridian (that includes Tuscaloosa- Univ.of AL). The Montgomery routing was about an hour faster than via Birmingham In the days when trains ran on both routes.


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## MARC Rider

MikefromCrete said:


> Don't forget: Mitch McConnel'l's wife is the U.S. secretary of transportation. I'm sure lots of federal money flows into Kentucky.


Actually, any money that would flow into a state outside of the stuff apportioned by the civil servants at the national level would have to be done by something called an "earmark," otherwise known as "pork" or "pork barrel" spending, where the various Senators approve goodies for each other in a game of mutual back-scratching which is not always delineated by party lines. Thus, despite Mitch's great power, if he wants to get some pork for his state, he'll have to approve some pork for states represented by other Senators. The same thing happens in the House, of course. Typically, the amount is small enough compared to the total appropriation that it doesn't muck up the economy of whatnot. It's basically the grease that gets the public business done. It helps people who are otherwise political enemies work together.

I seem to recall that when the Republicans took over Congress back in 2011, they made a big deal about eliminating this "corrupt" practice. I haven't been following about whether they've kept to their pledge, but it might explain some of the Congressional gridlock and dysfunction we've been having over the past decade.


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## DonNewcomb

https://www.wlox.com/2020/02/04/amtrak-span-coast-after-mobile-votes-allow-rail-service/


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## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Imagine being proud of your ability to undermine American wages and benefits in other states and winning by default as the lowest and least ethical bidder. Bravo.


Ah, but imagine the schadenfreunde we Yankees will have when the corporate overlords who moved operations to the South for the coolie wages and low taxes find out that they can do their stuff for even lower coolie wages and lower taxes (even counting bribes) in various developing countries. 

It already happened to the South with the textile industry. And I once had a manager at Michelin in South Carolina tell me that if Michelin had waited a few more years, they might have based the Western Hemisphere manufacturing in Latin America rather than South Carolina. (BTW, the last set of Goodyear tires I bought was made in Chile.)


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## noflyzone

We live on the Ms. coast and this is wonderful news. We can now travel to New Orleans or Mobile for cruises and don't have to drive and don't have to pay for extended parking.
Also, hopefully this will also be a catalyst for further service on to Jacksonville, Florida. Many seniors from Florida come to the Mississippi Gulf Coast to play in the casinos. And I'm sure many others will be travelling to Mobile and New Orleans for tourism. What an economic boost for our communities! I think this is a win-win for everyone. Post Katrina, everything on our gulf coast is new and a world class aquarium is about to open in Gulfport, along with many new casinos and big name entertainment. New restaurants, seafood galore, and certainly something for everyone.
Do you like old cars? In October we have an event called, Cruisin the Coast. It lasts for a week and it is approaching a record 10,000 antique and classic cars. Many events here. Famous 60s bands and classic entertainment.
We have children and grandchildren in Florida and I can tell you that the 525 mile drive is getting very old.
We both also abhor flying too. Looking forward to the possibilities for train travel in the future.


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## Qapla

Any word on when the trains will start rolling into Mobile?


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## jis

Qapla said:


> Any word on when the trains will start rolling into Mobile?


2023


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## noflyzone

I heard somewhere that it would be within 24 months after Mobile approved their support.
Then on to Jacksonville!


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## DonNewcomb

noflyzone said:


> We live on the Ms. ..... Post Katrina, everything on our gulf coast is new and a world class aquarium is about to open in Gulfport, along with many new casinos and big name entertainment. New restaurants, seafood galore, and certainly something for everyone.....


We do have it pretty good here, winter weather is generally pleasant. We get a lot of snowbirds. From what I've seen, this might restored service might be pretty good for people from Atlanta or Birmingham who want to visit our area but won't beat Greyhound for day trips to or from New Orleans and probably won't connect to the City of New Orleans, which would be the best thing for tourism. Folks from Atlanta can drive to north Florida and it's an easy enough drive from Birmingham to anywhere from Panama City to Pensacola. We need a way for the folks from the midwest to visit. At last check, nothing connects to anything else in New Orleans and that's the biggest issue. Arriving there's a 10-hour layover between the Sunset and the Crescent. Overnight departing. There's a 6-hour layover between the CoNO and Crescent and 8 hours departing. The Greyhound bus is not much better for connections at NOLA.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

DonNewcomb said:


> We do have it pretty good here, winter weather is generally pleasant. We get a lot of snowbirds. From what I've seen, this might restored service might be pretty good for people from Atlanta or Birmingham who want to visit our area but won't beat Greyhound for day trips to or from New Orleans and probably won't connect to the City of New Orleans, which would be the best thing for tourism. Folks from Atlanta can drive to north Florida and it's an easy enough drive from Birmingham to anywhere from Panama City to Pensacola. We need a way for the folks from the midwest to visit. At last check, nothing connects to anything else in New Orleans and that's the biggest issue. Arriving there's a 10-hour layover between the Sunset and the Crescent. Overnight departing. There's a 6-hour layover between the CoNO and Crescent and 8 hours departing. The Greyhound bus is not much better for connections at NOLA.


I believe the proposed twice daily schedule for the Mobile service would connect to the CONO, but not the Crescent or SL.


----------



## lordsigma

noflyzone said:


> Also, hopefully this will also be a catalyst for further service on to Jacksonville, Florida. Many seniors from Florida come to the Mississippi Gulf Coast to play in the casinos. And I'm sure many others will be travelling to Mobile and New Orleans for tourism. What an economic boost for our communities! I think this is a win-win for everyone. Post Katrina, everything on our gulf coast is new and a world class aquarium is about to open in Gulfport, along with many new casinos and big name entertainment. New restaurants, seafood galore, and certainly something for everyone.
> Do you like old cars? In October we have an event called, Cruisin the Coast. It lasts for a week and it is approaching a record 10,000 antique and classic cars. Many events here. Famous 60s bands and classic entertainment.
> We have children and grandchildren in Florida and I can tell you that the 525 mile drive is getting very old.


My understanding is that won’t happen unless there is a change in state level leadership in Alabama. I believe the lack of support by Governor Kay Ivey killed any extension East of Mobile and is also the reason why the city has to provide the funding in place of the state government. The original proposal included the multiple frequencies to Mobile with a single train operating to Florida.


----------



## cirdan

lordsigma said:


> My understanding is that won’t happen unless there is a change in state level leadership in Alabama. I believe the lack of support by Governor Kay Ivey killed any extension East of Mobile and is also the reason why the city has to provide the funding in place of the state government. The original proposal included the multiple frequencies to Mobile with a single train operating to Florida.



Isn't east of Mobile pretty much Florida anyway? With such a small part of the total mileage in Alabama, and Mobile on board already, should it matter at all what the rest of Alabama thinks?


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## DonNewcomb

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I believe the proposed twice daily schedule for the Mobile service would connect to the CONO, but not the Crescent or SL.


Could be. The proposal has changed over time and I may not be up on the latest instantiation. At one time they were proposing to extend the Crescent from NOLA out to Mobile but that could be "yesterday's news". I'd like to see a twice-daily run that would allow for nice day-trips between NOLA and Biloxi/Gulfport. You can walk from the Gulfport station to one casino and several nice restaurants. There's a streetcar between NOLA's Union Station and Canal Street, where you can transfer to any other streetcar line.


cirdan said:


> Isn't east of Mobile pretty much Florida anyway? With such a small part of the total mileage in Alabama, and Mobile on board already, should it matter at all what the rest of Alabama thinks?


Folks in Baldwin County might take offense at that. It's just as common to refer to that part of the Florida Panhand (Escambia-Walton Counties) as "Lower Alabama".


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## Qapla

Yes, the State Line is only 40 miles on I-10 and Pensacola is only another 18 miles - although I am not sure the train takes such a direct route

The problem in getting service restored to JAX is not getting from Mobile to Florida - it is getting from Pensacola to JAX ... the host RR has not been overly eager to allow this.


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## DonNewcomb

Qapla said:


> The problem in getting service restored to JAX is not getting from Mobile to Florida - it is getting from Pensacola to JAX ... the host RR has not been overly eager to allow this.


 That an the fact that the line from Mobile to Pensacola goes via Bay Minette and Flomaton adding unnecessary hours to an already slow journey. It would be much quicker to bus everyone from Mobile to P'cola then restart the train there.


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## Palmland

DonNewcomb said:


> That an the fact that the line from Mobile to Pensacola goes via Bay Minette and Flomaton adding unnecessary hours to an already slow journey. It would be much quicker to bus everyone from Mobile to P'cola then restart the train there.



So true. The circuitous routing of the railroad via Flomaton resulted in a run time of 2hr 45min for the Gulf Wind in the 60’s. Google says driving time is 54 min. A thruway bus is the answer and perhaps continue on to the gulf beaches at Fort Walton, Destin, and Panama City. But, good luck getting Florida or Alabama to pay for it.


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## west point

How crooked is it ? Very ! Mobile to Pensacola to Crestview. I-10 about 95 miles. CSX - L&N ) is about 160 miles. Flomaton is where the Florida line breaks off the CSX main line MOB = MGM. Flomaton is approximately 42 miles due north of downtown Pensacola. The line from north of Pensacola to downtown PNS to around the bluffs on the east side of PNS is slow ( 20 - 30 MPH ), Once downtown was street running and may still be ? Just imagine a giant horseshoe of 30 miles tip to tip and only 12 miles as the crow flies . Even I-10 goes north of PNS with a I-110 North - south of 11 miles to downtown. 
does not


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## neroden

Frankly Mobile to Montgomery to Atlanta makes more sense than the Flomaton route. Also won't be funded though.


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## west point

neroden said:


> Frankly Mobile to Montgomery to Atlanta makes more sense than the Flomaton route. Also won't be funded though.



Well Flomaton is on the route MGM <> MOB. Do you mean Flomaton - Pensacola - Tallahassee - JAX ?.


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## DonNewcomb

neroden said:


> Frankly Mobile to Montgomery to Atlanta makes more sense than the Flomaton route. Also won't be funded though.


From time to time, I've mused on the idea of routes such as Gulfport-Jackson and Mobile-Birmingham. They might possibly have been viable in the days of diesel rail-cars but not so much with the buff-strength restrictions in-force today.


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## drdumont

DonNewcomb said:


> That an the fact that the line from Mobile to Pensacola goes via Bay Minette and Flomaton adding unnecessary hours to an already slow journey. It would be much quicker to bus everyone from Mobile to P'cola then restart the train there.



My first response is "GAAAHHH!". But if that is what it would take, a very short bus ride, I would almost consider that a beating I just have to take.


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## neroden

west point said:


> Well Flomaton is on the route MGM <> MOB. Do you mean Flomaton - Pensacola - Tallahassee - JAX ?.


I mean "the Flomaton route to Pensacola", yes. It's just so out of the way.


----------



## Qapla

On post-after-post throughout this forum people keep saying they take the train "for the ride" - not because it is "fast" ... now we want to complain that a train that will offer the splendid view of the Gulf Coast and the panhandle of Florida is "too slow" - and yet, the winding trek through the Rockies is "spectacular" and shouldn't be missed?


----------



## west point

Yes PNS - Tallahassee is out of the way. But there are other concerns.
1. CSX has turned over PNS - JAX to a short line. Will they even want a passenger train ?
2. Did CSX sneak in a no passenger train clause like the IND - Louisville route ? Think that will be hard to enforce but ? ?
3. Will PNS - JAX deteriorate to a 25 MPH road?
4.. Will short line allow many slow orders ( 10 MPH ) to become permanent ? Or worse excepted track preventing passenger trains.
5. Maintenance of the many draw bridges and fixed bridges some that are draws that have been locked closed ?


----------



## Qapla

Maybe I am missing something - but I don't really understand why, now that they voted to restore service from NOLO to Mobile, it should take 3 years to implement - it seems like 6 months should be long enough ... or, at least, by the end of the year.


----------



## Qapla

west point said:


> Yes PNS - Tallahassee is out of the way.



I'm sure there are many FSU students and families living in the panhandle that agree with you


----------



## DonNewcomb

Qapla said:


> Maybe I am missing something - but I don't really understand why, now that they voted to restore service from NOLO to Mobile, it should take 3 years to implement - it seems like 6 months should be long enough ... or, at least, by the end of the year.


They have a station to build in Mobile. The old one was sold off post Katrina. I think Gulfport, Bioxi and Pascagoula are almost ready. In Biloxi they have to move the landing 50 yards east and upgrade it to new standards. It's across the street from the main bus station but not connected. Not sure about Bay St. Louis.


----------



## Suze10860

DonNewcomb said:


> Not sure about Bay St. Louis.



This is from a local newspaper article (The Sea Coast Echo) from almost a year ago, March 2019.

_“The Bay St. Louis city government and Hancock County Board of Supervisors are expected to invest $50,000 each in upgrading the existing BSL Depot to make it ADA-compliant for train passengers.”_

I can tell you that the original Bay St. Louis station is currently the “Depot Visitor Center” and houses the most wonderful Bay St. Louis Mardi Gras Museum downstairs and the Alice Moseley Folk Art & Antique Museum upstairs. No matter what the ultimate plan turns out to be, I’m very sure that Bay St. Louis will do all they can to facilitate whatever it takes to get this route up and running.

This little beach town is already a spectacular spot in which to live or visit, and the return of the Gulf Coast service will only make it even better. So happy these 2 almost-ready-to-retire New Jerseyites found this beautiful Mississippi town!


----------



## Palmetto

I question whether the paltry sum of $100,000.00 will bring the station up to snuff. Didn't I see somewhere that it cost $1,000,000.00 to install a mini-high in the Northeast?


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> I question whether the paltry sum of $100,000.00 will bring the station up to snuff. Didn't I see somewhere that it cost $1,000,000.00 to install a mini-high in the Northeast?


A relevant question to ask may be why does it take a million to build a mini-high in the Northeast.


----------



## Suze10860

jis said:


> A relevant question to ask may be why does it take a million to build a mini-high in the Northeast.



I tend to agree with this, although I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about this entire process. Don't even know what a "mini-high" is.

But I will say that comparing Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, to _anything_ in the Northeast is absolutely an apples to oranges situation. I'll continue to put my faith in BSL, as the restoration of this rail service has been a mission for the entire community for years. I feel confident they've got a good handle on what it's going to take from their side to get it done.


----------



## JC_620

Dumb question maybe but why not just return the Sunset Limited to the route like it once had previously? If not extending it to Miami or Orlando, terminate in Jacksonville? 

Call me nostalgic. My next wish is for actual passenger train service into Phoenix and not 30 miles south of it, and then the return of the Desert Wind into Las Vegas!!


----------



## jis

Sunset extension will never be as reliable as a stand alone train and as things stand it will also not be a daily train. Also a consist that has been on the road for two days is not likely to be as clean as a stand alone properly serviced train. That is primarily why the Southern Rail Commission has removed the Sunset extension alternative from further consideration.


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> On post-after-post throughout this forum people keep saying they take the train "for the ride" - not because it is "fast" ... now we want to complain that a train that will offer the splendid view of the Gulf Coast and the panhandle of Florida is "too slow" - and yet, the winding trek through the Rockies is "spectacular" and shouldn't be missed?



Some people on this forum say they take the train "for the ride," but such people, while they're a small, but essential part of the market share for train travel, are only a small fraction of the total market. Government support for train travel is predicated on the basis that the service has value as practical transportation. To do that, it has to be roughly as fast as driving. You might get away with it being a little slower for overnight trips, where even trundling along at 30 mph on a circuitous route is faster than a car and driver sitting still in a motel, the driver sleeping, going nowhere. But any day trip should have a point to point average speed of at least 50 mph on a route that is of similar distance to the highway equivalent.


----------



## niemi24s

MARC Rider said:


> . . .any day trip should have a point to point average speed of at least 50 mph on a route that is of similar distance to the highway equivalent.


FWIW, a day trip from Pensacola to Orlando on the pre-Katrina SL averaged 36.5mph. And a day trip on the remaining SL leg from NOL to SAS averages 29.4mph.

Uh-oh!!


----------



## Siegmund

MARC Rider said:


> Government support for train travel is predicated on the basis that the service has value as practical transportation. To do that, it has to be roughly as fast as driving...



I would amend that slightly: it *either* has to be roughly as fast as driving, *or* it has to offer me the ability to do something I can't while driving or flying --- for instance, I can sit and read, or work offline on a laptop, much more easily on a train than I can while driving (or while a passenger in someone else's car, or while flying.) In my part of the world, with 80mph speed limits on all the interstates and very few traffic jams, the train never wins on speed alone.

There is a market for slow-but-comfortable. There's a market for moving offices, fully equipped with phone service and fast internet. 
There's a market for "isn't it nice to get directly from downtown to downtown without having to be at the wheel in a traffic jam."

None of these markets is "everybody." But they are all legitimate markets. Slower than but more comfortable than a plane is a big market over distances of a few hundred miles. Slower than driving but less stress than fighting traffic and looking for parking describes a lot of suburban service. (And in a few cases - in the NEC, and for instance a subway under a gridlocked downtown - the train is actually faster.)

Now which of those markets should Amtrak stress?
There was a time when the social and relaxed atmosphere was a big selling point. It seems to be less so now (and the lack of wifi and cell service on western trains is turning into a sizable negative.)
Maybe selling electronically capable roomettes to businessmen for day trips is a real new market to consider. Maybe Japanese style sleepers for 10-hour trips is a real new market.

Most of that marketing relates to the onboard amenities. ALL of those markets require the train to be frequent and on time.


----------



## DonNewcomb

JC_620 said:


> Dumb question maybe but why not just return the Sunset Limited to the route like it once had previously? If not extending it to Miami or Orlando, terminate in Jacksonville?....


Basically, the Sunset between Mobile and the east coast just didn't work. The whole run was made a oh-dark-thirty. An every-other-day train that runs on a glacial time-table and doesn't connect to any other train in New Orleans, does not serve the market. Furthermore, there are big questions about the availability of the tracks east of P'cola.



niemi24s said:


> FWIW, a day trip from Pensacola to Orlando on the pre-Katrina SL averaged 36.5mph. And a day trip on the remaining SL leg from NOL to SAS averages 29.4mph....


And the train just wasn't useful. Maybe some folks rode it across the USA but it wasn't useful to regional customers. It's much more useful to have multiple runs per day that may actually connect to other trains in New Orleans. Who knows, if this works, it might eventually be extended to Birmingham, giving a connection to the Crescent. 

Whatever they do, it will have to be built on success. Nostalgia and dreams won't cut it.


----------



## jiml

Siegmund said:


> I would amend that slightly: it *either* has to be roughly as fast as driving, *or* it has to offer me the ability to do something I can't while driving or flying --- for instance, I can sit and read, or work offline on a laptop, much more easily on a train than I can while driving (or while a passenger in someone else's car, or while flying.) In my part of the world, with 80mph speed limits on all the interstates and very few traffic jams, the train never wins on speed alone.
> 
> There is a market for slow-but-comfortable. There's a market for moving offices, fully equipped with phone service and fast internet.
> There's a market for "isn't it nice to get directly from downtown to downtown without having to be at the wheel in a traffic jam."
> 
> None of these markets is "everybody." But they are all legitimate markets. Slower than but more comfortable than a plane is a big market over distances of a few hundred miles. Slower than driving but less stress than fighting traffic and looking for parking describes a lot of suburban service. (And in a few cases - in the NEC, and for instance a subway under a gridlocked downtown - the train is actually faster.)
> 
> Now which of those markets should Amtrak stress?
> There was a time when the social and relaxed atmosphere was a big selling point. It seems to be less so now (and the lack of wifi and cell service on western trains is turning into a sizable negative.)
> Maybe selling electronically capable roomettes to businessmen for day trips is a real new market to consider. Maybe Japanese style sleepers for 10-hour trips is a real new market.
> 
> Most of that marketing relates to the onboard amenities. ALL of those markets require the train to be frequent and on time.


I'm guessing "all of the above" isn't an option.


----------



## IndyLions

DonNewcomb said:


> Basically, the Sunset between Mobile and the east coast just didn't work. The whole run was made a oh-dark-thirty. An every-other-day train that runs on a glacial time-table and doesn't connect to any other train in New Orleans, does not serve the market. Furthermore, there are big questions about the availability of the tracks east of P'cola.
> 
> 
> And the train just wasn't useful. Maybe some folks rode it across the USA but it wasn't useful to regional customers. It's much more useful to have multiple runs per day that may actually connect to other trains in New Orleans. Who knows, if this works, it might eventually be extended to Birmingham, giving a connection to the Crescent.
> 
> Whatever they do, it will have to be built on success. Nostalgia and dreams won't cut it.



I agree that the schedule needs to work well for the locals. I also think a connection to the City of New Orleans would be really valuable.

We recently vacationed on a spring break down in the Dauphin Island area outside of Mobile. We decided to drive on that trip. We stayed with a family friend who is from Kalamazoo Michigan originally. She lamented the fact that she couldn’t take the train back-and-forth to Kalamazoo from Mobile without somehow finding her way to and from New Orleans. The Gulf Coast train if it has any connection at all to the city of New Orleans will provide that for her.


----------



## drdumont

I've never understood the scheduling of the Sunset Limited, nevermind the three day a week thing.
As stated elsewhere, the impossibility of connecting in New Orleans with trains or planes without an overnight, San Antonio in the middle of the night, crack of dawn arrival in LA is not too bad, and the 10PM LA departure is at times convenient. The ONLY convenient part of the sked.
Mayhap they have fingered this out to minimize freight delays?
HINT:>> It hasn't worked!


----------



## west point

Evidently Amtrak considers the LAX connections to the Starlight more important ?


----------



## drdumont

Come to think of it, you can connect to 'most everything, and there is time to walk to Philippe's for a sandwich.


----------



## DonNewcomb

west point said:


> Evidently Amtrak considers the LAX connections to the Starlight more important ?


Connections any place besides New Orleans: L.A., NYC, Chicago. NOLA doesn't count.


----------



## railiner

The New Orleans hotel, restaurant, and taxicab lobby is strong...


----------



## Qapla

Maybe they are trying to match the NOLA Amtrak schedule with the MEGA Bus schedule


----------



## neroden

Qapla said:


> On post-after-post throughout this forum people keep saying they take the train "for the ride" - not because it is "fast" ... now we want to complain that a train that will offer the splendid view of the Gulf Coast and the panhandle of Florida is "too slow" - and yet, the winding trek through the Rockies is "spectacular" and shouldn't be missed?



I have, in the past, advocated rerouting the Southwest Chief through Wichita and Amarillo (faster, more online population) and I've advocated rerouting the California Zephyr through Wyoming (faster) while retaining a daily Ski Train route from Denver to Grand Junction (keeping most of the online population -- Green River and Helper often have no passengers).

So I'm not one of the people who believes in running artificially slow train routes "for the ride". You may be thinking of someone else.


----------



## me_little_me

Qapla said:


> On post-after-post throughout this forum people keep saying they take the train "for the ride" - not because it is "fast" ... now we want to complain that a train that will offer the splendid view of the Gulf Coast and the panhandle of Florida is "too slow" - and yet, the winding trek through the Rockies is "spectacular" and shouldn't be missed?


I see no conflict. When I want to see the scenery and take the train for the ride, I do so. When I want to take the train but avoid flying, I want a fast train. And higher speeds don't mean you miss the scenery - it just goes by a little faster at 80mph than at 40mph.


----------



## DSS&A

Amtrak Gulf Coast service to resume in 2022!









Amtrak official: Gulf Coast service starting in 2022


Marc Magliari, a spokesman with Amtrak, confirmed Tuesday that passenger rail service will restart along the Gulf Coast in 2022, perhaps as early as January. He said an update will be given to the Southern Rail Commission on March 5.




www.al.com





Secretary of Transportation agreed to inspect the passenger train route.









‘Mayor Pete’ vows to visit Gulf Coast, fuels Amtrak momentum


Pete Buttigieg, the incoming transportation secretary, confirmed last week he will visit the Gulf states to learn more about an Amtrak project connecting New Orleans to Mobile.




www.al.com


----------



## tricia

New Orleans to Mobile, not an eastern extension of the Sunset Ltd


----------



## Qapla

It needs to be restored to JAX


----------



## Mailliw

This is good news. Multiple frequency corridor service is alot more useful to locak residents than a thrice weekly long distance train. Will Mobile be a terminus or will this be extended up to Birmingham?


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## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> It needs to be restored to JAX


Get Senators Marco Rubio and Rick Scott to send some Federal $$$$ to Florida to allow the State of Florida to contribute to the service. Hey, right now the Senate is working on that Covid Relief Bill, some $$$$ for this service in return for their bipartisan support for the bill would get the funding to the state real quick. On the other hand, I believe that Sen. Scott, back when he was governor of Florida, turned down Federal $$$ for corridor service to Tampa, so maybe the people of Florida don't really care about whether or not they have train service between New Orleans and Jacksonville.


----------



## Palmetto

Qapla said:


> It needs to be restored to JAX



Amtrak was trying a few years ago, with the demo train they ran. Now, it's a two-railroad route. And don't expect Florida to pony up any funds.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

MARC Rider said:


> Get Senators Marco Rubio and Rick Scott to send some Federal $$$$ to Florida to allow the State of Florida to contribute to the service. Hey, right now the Senate is working on that Covid Relief Bill, some $$$$ for this service in return for their bipartisan support for the bill would get the funding to the state real quick. On the other hand, I believe that Sen. Scott, back when he was governor of Florida, turned down Federal $$$ for corridor service to Tampa, so maybe the people of Florida don't really care about whether or not they have train service between New Orleans and Jacksonville.



Give them a gameday train that goes from Gainesville to Jacksonville for Florida/Georgia and another one from Gainesville to Tallahassee for FSU/UF and you might get senators in the state talking about train service (hahaha).


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## Qapla

The problem is - there are no longer direct tracks from Gainesville ...


----------



## TrackWalker

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Give them a gameday train that goes from Gainesville to Jacksonville for Florida/Georgia and another one from Gainesville to Tallahassee for FSU/UF and you might get senators in the state talking about train service (hahaha).



Sort of like a gateway drug.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

Qapla said:


> The problem is - there are no longer direct tracks from Gainesville ...



On the CSX website I see a tracks that start near the corner of NW 23rd Ave and NW 6th St. Are you talking about those tracks?


----------



## Qapla

That is a single track, rarely used, that backtracks through Starke to Baldwin before it could head to Tallahassee - definitely not a direct route.

Although you could manage a trip to JAX from those tracks - there is nowhere to board a train. Those tracks have only been used to service the power plant with fuel.

Even thought the map shows the tracks ending on 23rd near 6th st - they no longer run that far. They terminate at 84 Lumber near 53rd St and 441


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## McIntyre2K7

I understand it's not a direct route to Tallahassee, it's more about getting people to acknowledge that trains could help Florida. That spot at 23rd near 6th looks like it would be a great place for Transit Oriented Development.


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## Qapla

It doesn't look that way in person ... there is a "superfund contaminated cleanup site" where that track used to go


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## Cal

Great news. 

If it weren't for the delays, I would love the Sunset to go back to Florida. I would definitely take it. 

Maybe, if the SAS-LAX portion of the TE goes daily, the stub train will continue on to Florida?


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> Great news.
> 
> If it weren't for the delays, I would love the Sunset to go back to Florida. I would definitely take it.
> 
> Maybe, if the SAS-LAX portion of the TE goes daily, the stub train will continue on to Florida?


For now nothing is going to Florida. It is just NOL to Mobile twice a day service. That’s it.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> For now nothing is going to Florida. It is just NOL to Mobile twice a day service. That’s it.


Yep, but still, having it go to Florida and the stub train going to Florida (if it ever happens), would be nice


----------



## Qapla

A year or two ago we could have said "for now nothing is going to Mobile" ... we can hope/wish/dream - can't we ??


----------



## jis

Qapla said:


> A year or two ago we could have said "for now nothing is going to Mobile" ... we can hope/wish/dream - can't we ??


Nobody is stopping anyone from dreaming by merely stating currently known facts. Those two are in different universes, one of facts and the other of dreams and desires.


----------



## Qapla

And five years ago going from NOL to Mobile was dreaming ... especially for twice daily service. Who knows what another 5 years could bring


----------



## Cal

Qapla said:


> And five years ago going from NOL to Mobile was dreaming ... especially for twice daily service. Who knows what another 5 years could bring


Especially with this new administration. Really curious to see what Amtrak brings us


----------



## IndyLions

jis said:


> For now nothing is going to Florida. It is just NOL to Mobile twice a day service. That’s it.


For my retired family friend living on Dauphin Island – this is exactly what she needs. When it is established, she will be able to travel easily round-trip between Kalamazoo Michigan and Mobile Alabama via Amtrak. 

Of course, that assumes they don’t screw up the connection with the City of New Orleans. With two daily roundtrips, you would think at least one of them would connect.


----------



## Palmetto

Qapla said:


> And five years ago going from NOL to Mobile was dreaming ... especially for twice daily service. Who knows what another 5 years could bring



I'm afraid you'll need a strong change of heart in the Florida government to get to that point. I hope it happens, but am pessimistic.


----------



## jis

If the funding can be found and trackage rights from a short line that owns most of the route in Florida secured then a single train per day is planned between NOL and Orlando. It is all documented including a proposed timetable in the Southern Rail Commission Report done some five or so years back. But that is not the option from the report that is being implemented at this time. It may be implemented someday.


----------



## jimdex

if you read between the lines, it looks to me like Amtrak is telling CSX it "intends" to start service, but CSX has not yet agreed to host the train. I wonder is this is the prelude for a court fight.


----------



## jis

jimdex said:


> if you read between the lines, it looks to me like Amtrak is telling CSX it "intends" to start service, but CSX has not yet agreed to host the train. I wonder is this is the prelude for a court fight.


This has more to do with Amtrak signaling a sea change in its management's guiding principle. What will or will not come out of it on this particular proposal is a different matter altogether. Fingers crossed though. It would be nice to have it.


----------



## DonNewcomb

Qapla said:


> It needs to be restored to JAX



What we need is usable passenger service that connects NOL to Mobile. By that, I mean service that is frequent enough for day trips between New Orleans and the cities on the Gulf Coast and which connects to the Crescent, Sunset and CONO. I've lived my whole life on the route of the Sunset and I can assure you it was a completely unusable train that ran infrequently and at useless hours. It connected to no other train at NOL. Useless. 



IndyLions said:


> ......Of course, that assumes they don’t screw up the connection with the City of New Orleans. With two daily roundtrips, you would think at least one of them would connect.



This is a key point. It all depends on connections in New Orleans. Unless you can connect to the other trains it will be an almost complete waste of effort. Useful only for fun trips to and from New Orleans. BTW, the street car does connect Union Station in New Orleans to the Canal Street interchange zone, the French Quarter, Aquarium, etc. So all the parts are there. It just depends on implementation.

As soon as anyone gets a tentative timetable, I'd like to look at it.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

DonNewcomb said:


> What we need is usable passenger service that connects NOL to Mobile. By that, I mean service that is frequent enough for day trips between New Orleans and the cities on the Gulf Coast and which connects to the Crescent, Sunset and CONO. I've lived my whole life on the route of the Sunset and I can assure you it was a completely unusable train that ran infrequently and at useless hours. It connected to no other train at NOL. Useless.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a key point. It all depends on connections in New Orleans. Unless you can connect to the other trains it will be an almost complete waste of effort. Useful only for fun trips to and from New Orleans. BTW, the street car does connect Union Station in New Orleans to the Canal Street interchange zone, the French Quarter, Aquarium, etc. So all the parts are there. It just depends on implementation.
> 
> As soon as anyone gets a tentative timetable, I'd like to look at it.


This was the proposed schedule as of Summer 2019.


----------



## Cal

DonNewcomb said:


> I've lived my whole life on the route of the Sunset and I can assure you it was a completely unusable train that ran infrequently and at useless hours. It connected to no other train at NOL. Useless.


I believe the Sunset involved in the Bayou Canot Crash was only 30 minutes late, which is a shame


----------



## DonNewcomb

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> This was the proposed schedule as of Summer 2019.


Ariving NOLA 1023 and 2023 and departing 0800 and 1745

So, according to the timetable I have (which may be out of date) these are the current arrivals and departures at NOL:
Crescent 1932 0700
CONO 1532 1345
Sunset 2140 0900

Can you see the problem? Am I reading it right? Two out of 6 connections ain't good. Every connection except CONO requires an overnight in NOLA. It's fine for people who want to go straight north to Chicago but what about travelers who'd like to connect from Mobile to L.A.? The average traveler (vs rail enthusiasts) won't consider an overnight in New Orleans, waiting for a train, to be worthwhile and will just fly instead. The real problem is that everything is synced out of Chicago. Nothing is synced in New Orleans. The same issue applies to travelers from L.A. who'd like to connect to the Crescent, It is simply not practical. 

They could satisfy the demand with a pair of diesel rail cars if they could pass buff strength test. Meaning, I foresee ridership below 100 pax per day.


----------



## Sidney

At least it's something. Extending to Mobile is a start,but it would be nice to extend to Jacksonville,where connections can be made to the Silvers and make Amtrak truly a coast to coast service again


----------



## jis

It is literally quite impossible to both connect to the Sunset and Crescent and also provide a useful local service. Since this is going to be mostly funded locally, and its primary goal is to serve local users, connections will be second priority, specially when it makes the service less conveient for local users. This is nothing that was not known before. This has been the plan all along in the Southern Rail Commission document prepared by Amtrak, which contains ridership estimates too. Since people seem to have short memories, here is a link to the document that is guiding all these activities related to Gulf Coast Service.



https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf


----------



## DonNewcomb

jis said:


> ...... This is nothing that was not known before. .....


Understood. It's not rocket science. The real problem is that New Orleans is Amtrak's version of Mist County*, MN (Lake Wobegon) It's where all the loose ends got bundled up and stuffed out of the way. Not a place you go to make any rail connection. So, a new service in NOLA starts out with the deck stacked against it. Too bad. 

*For those not familiar with the fictional Mist County, the tale goes that rather than being surveyed from a central point outward, Minnesota was surveyed from the edges inward. When the survey teams met in the middle, they found they had made a number of math errors and created Mist County to avoid having to redo the survey. That's why it doesn't appear on any maps.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Palmetto said:


> I'm afraid you'll need a strong change of heart in the Florida government to get to that point. I hope it happens, but am pessimistic.


Agreed. 

Bringing more interstate passenger rail to Florida requires meaningful support at the state government level. As we've seen before a pro-rail federal administration alone is not enough to make this happen. The state government can easily undermine or simply refuse such assistance. Hoping, wishing, & dreaming for more and better service is all well and good but as with so many modern problems finding sufficient political will remains the most critical roadblock.


----------



## jis

Basically in a rational world, Crescent should simply be split at Birmingham or a regional service run from Birmingham to Mobile. That pretty much removes the Crescent connection at NOL issue in the direction of Mobile. Of course Alabama has not exactly been enthusiastic about any train going to Mobile so they are unlikely to be helpful for a service purely within Alabama either at this point. The only reasonable possibility at present is as a section of the Crescent funded as part of the LD funding.

The reality is that the NOL - Mobile service is mostly championed by Senator Wicker of Mississippi and folks in Mississippi and Louisiana with Alabama being dragged along for the ride for now.

As for the Sunset Limited, connecting to a train that arrives at 9pm and often runs late, is a guarantee for destroying any local ridership. The entire Sunset Limited setup needs to be reorganized to get more reasonable connectable times at New Orleans. Just throwing a tantrum about it is not going to make things happen.


----------



## Palmland

Getting back to this topic, wasn’t one of the original scenarios for this service to continue the CONO to Mobile? That possibility would certainly guarantee connectivity to Mobile and make use of equipment that would otherwise sit idle until the next day’s train. The possible schedule posted above seems to mesh reasonably well with CONO arrival and departure times. Turning and servicing in Mobile might be a problem though.

But wouldn’t it be nice to have a one seat ride to the gulf resorts from the midwest with, perhaps, thruway service continuing to Florida resort areas like Destin and Panama Ciry Beach. The second train should be Superliner with a SSL handling the cafe chores.


----------



## Qapla

Just curious ... can a train be fully turned in Mobile?? Physically, maintenance and restocking?


----------



## DonNewcomb

jis said:


> .....The reality is that the NOL - Mobile service is mostly championed by Senator Wicker of Mississippi.....


When they did the test run between New Orleans and Mobile and they let him bring the train into Gulfport, he was like a kid in a candy shop. Yeah, Wicker wants this.


Palmland said:


> ....But wouldn’t it be nice to have a one seat ride to the gulf resorts from the midwest with, perhaps, thruway service continuing to Florida resort areas like Destin and Panama Ciry Beach.....


Mississippi really wants to see the tourists come to the casinos on the Gulf Coast. It's a short walk from the train stations in Biloxi and Gulfport to casinos (and they'll be happy to send a bus to meet the trains). The Florida panhandle is tougher. The tracks don't run anywhere near the beach resorts. Thruway bus might be the better option there. Besides, that whole stretch was served by the Sunset at oh-dark-thirty. Very inconvenient schedule between P'cola and Tallahassee.


----------



## Cal

Qapla said:


> Just curious ... can a train be fully turned in Mobile?? Physically, maintenance and restocking?


I'm assuming they have that covered. Or the trains will just have a small miniatous facility such as the ones in San Diego, Goleta, or San Luis Obispo. And have any big repairs be done at NOL.


----------



## John Bredin

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> This was the proposed schedule as of Summer 2019.


I don't know if this schedule has a morning and afternoon round-trip to be able to run two trainsets with two crews doing split-shifts, but you can get three round-trips out of two trainsets if you posit a turnaround of about 1.5 hours. I don't know if that's doable if the trainsets have a cafe. Or four round-trips if you posit a turnaround of about a half-hour, which I'm sure is NOT doable with a cafe.


----------



## John Bredin

Cal said:


> miniatous


Orange-red?


----------



## Cal

John Bredin said:


> Orange-red?


Maintenance*


----------



## Willbridge

_Miami Herald _carries AP story confirming new Gulf train/s.
Amtrak notifies Class 1's


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> Getting back to this topic, wasn’t one of the original scenarios for this service to continue the CONO to Mobile?


No. Go back and read



https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf



CONO was involved only in Alternative A (and A1) long distance train to Florida, and not in the State Supported train to Mobile. NOL - Mobile in Alternative A and Alternative B and B1 is a pure state funded local train using dedicated consist as described in the document. Alternative C uses dedicated consists independent of the CONO for NOL - Florida service.


----------



## DSS&A

Trains Newswire has an article today with additional information about the some of initial potential track improvements and news about the drawn out train simularionstudy efforts.









Amtrak seeks to start New Orleans-Mobile service in 2022 | Trains Magazine


Passenger carrier announces intention despite lack of completed study on traffic, no agreements on route improvements



trn.trains.com


----------



## Palmland

jis said:


> No. Go back and read



Thanks for providing that link. It is interesting. But it still sounds like some CONO equipment would be used but maybe not offered as through cars. The second train would use Horizon cars - not my favorite but at least they have big windows. Of course this may be old news and what we wind up with could be different.

"Alternatives B and B1envision operation of two daily state-supported round trips betweenNew Orleans, LA and Mobile, AL, making the same intermediate station stops as the state-sup-ported train in Alternative A. The two round trips (listed in the accompanying timetables asTBD 3, 4, 5 and 6) would include one morning train in each direction, and one lateafternoon/early evening train in each direction. One round trip (operating eastbound in the afternoon/evening and westbound in the morning) would use equipment which currently sits inNew Orleans in between scheduled runs of the City of New Orleans. Coach and lounge car serv-ice would be provided. The other round trip (eastbound in the morning and westbound in theafternoon/evening) would use a dedicated trainset and could include coach, Business Class andcafé car service. Both trains would offer AmtrakConnect Wi-Fi service and at-seat power out-lets. One of the coaches could also be designated an Amtrak Quiet Car if the state partners so desire."

But we might be getting excited about this before we know what CSX will demand and how long it will take for required improvements. Starting in 2022 seems ambitious but I hope Mayor Pete and Amtrak can pull it off.


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> Thanks for providing that link. It is interesting. But it still sounds like some CONO equipment would be used but maybe not offered as through cars. The second train would use Horizon cars - not my favorite but at least they have big windows. Of course this may be old news and what we wind up with could be different.


The present NOL - Mobile plan is exactly Alternative B.

According to folks at Amtrak that I have talked to this is the agreed upon planning document that guides everything since it is the Southern Rail Commission that directs this effort and Amtrak executes, and this is the document that they both agreed to.

Naturally, in the process of executing they might discover road blocks to some specifics that might need to change the timetables some and such. But those have to be agreed to by the SRC, and the agreement process will be a public one. That is the whole point of setting up these Commissions as the public policy setting bodies, a model that is likely to be extended to other corridors. For example, this has been done in the NEC too. So the bottom line is, we will know if something is to change.

Yeah logically it is quite obvious that it will be probably the same cars as in Alternative A from CONO that may flow through at least some times, but that is different from CONO running through. But the original point I was making is that there will be no CONO cars in the NOL - Mobile state supported service.

Of course whether anything happens or not will depend on CSX. They cannot outright disagree to run the train, but they can try to charge exorbitant fees to dissuade Amtrak and the states. But they know that they will face problems in Senate if they do so, and CSX is not exactly in a strong position there to claim huge traffic after having gotten rid of the trackage beyond Mobile to Florida.


----------



## Hytec

DonNewcomb said:


> They could satisfy the demand with a pair of diesel rail cars if they could pass buff strength test. Meaning, I foresee ridership below 100 pax per day.


The Amtrak Gulf Coast Limited, 2nd iteration, initial run was June 27, 1996. It started with two coaches because Amtrak, like you, assumed ridership would be very poor. However, by Christmas that year, Amtrak had increased the consist to five coaches because of demand. Believe me, they were full. because we loved it. We didn't have to drive to NOLA any more.

Sadly, The Limited could not operate during the week between Christmas and New Years because CSX shut down the line for repairs to the Rigolets bridge. When operation was restarted after New Years, ridership dropped to just a few people. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Amtrak cancelled the Limited on March 31, 1997.

I offer the following Wiki posting. Gulf Coast Limited - Wikipedia

Amtrak estimated 134 pax, 2 coaches @ 67 each. By Christmas demand was in excess of 300 pax on weekends. That required 5 coaches, 300/67=4,5 or five coaches.


----------



## DonNewcomb

Hytec said:


> .....Sadly, The Limited could not operate during the week between Christmas and New Years because CSX shut down the line for repairs to the Rigolets bridge.......


A situation which will affect any service that's dependent on CSX's gulf coast single trackage. Every now and then they take the whole section down for repairs. Thanks for the history, though. 

It would be nice to see service that would combine the Gulf Coast Ltd. and Gulf Breeze, connecting New Orleans and Birmingham via Mobile, particularly if it connected with the Crescent in B'ham.


----------



## west point

Actually connecting from Mobile - Gulfport and all stations in between to Crescent is possible if thruway Gulfport to Hattiesburg is reinstated. Crescent terrible OTP southbound might make Amtrak not to publish that connection ?


----------



## neroden

So the new news in the article is that Amtrak has stopped trying to play nice by asking CSX and NS to cooperate, and has now *told* them that (assuming funding is completed) Amtrak is going to be starting service using its rights under federal law, and they had better get with the program.

It's a "stop stonewalling, the Biden administration and the new Congress won't let you get away with it" notice to CX and NS. That's actually news.


----------



## neroden

jimdex said:


> if you read between the lines, it looks to me like Amtrak is telling CSX it "intends" to start service, but CSX has not yet agreed to host the train. I wonder is this is the prelude for a court fight.


This is Amtrak management signalling that it's ready to beat CSX if CSX tries spurious legal obstruction. Perhaps the win at the STB; perhaps the backing of Congress; perhaps the backing of the Biden administration; they don't expect CSX to be able to obstruct. Good.


----------



## railiner

DonNewcomb said:


> It would be nice to see service that would combine the Gulf Coast Ltd. and Gulf Breeze, connecting New Orleans and Birmingham via Mobile, particularly if it connected with the Crescent in B'ham.


What would be better, that, or extending the Gulf Coast Limited from Mobile up to Atlanta on the CSX route of the former Crescent Limited?


----------



## DonNewcomb

railiner said:


> What would be better, that, or extending the Gulf Coast Limited from Mobile up to Atlanta on the CSX route of the former Crescent Limited?


If by that you mean NOL, Mobile, Montgomery, Atlanta, etc. That would work.


----------



## railiner

DonNewcomb said:


> If by that you mean NOL, Mobile, Montgomery, Atlanta, etc. That would work.


It would be faster than the Gulf Breeze route, and it would probably be faster than the current NS route, so it could leave New Orleans later and still connect with the Crescent at Atlanta. But then, there would be no train between Montgomery and Birmingham (unless a 'Floridian' was reinstated on that route...


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Lots of hype... good for tourism and all related businesses. But 'where's the beef?' The politicians say that Amtrak's gonna do it. Will need funding, local and state government cooperation and... more than just talk. Pensacola gets no service???









Amtrak set to return to Gulf Coast in 2022 with 4 stops in South Mississippi


Amtrak is moving ahead with plans to begin service next year from New Orleans to Mobile with stops in Bay St. Louis, Gulfport, Biloxi and Pascagoula.




www.wlox.com













Amtrak Service Returning Next Year To The Gulf Coast. But Not To Pensacola Or Atmore. : NorthEscambia.com


Local online newspaper for North Escambia County Florida, Pensacola, Walnut Hill, Bratt, McDavid, Molino, Century, Cantonment, Atmore, Flomaton, News



www.northescambia.com







https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/mississippi/articles/2021-02-24/amtrak-passenger-trains-to-return-to-gulf-coast-in-2022


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tricia said:


> In my dreams, Amtrak runs a train from Chicago to Florida, stopping in Asheville NC along the way. If not Asheville, at least Knoxville or Chattanooga.


Now you're talking... along with that returning route is access to some of the most beautiful country in America! Take me home country roads!

BTW... let's put those beautiful 'repurposed' stations back to what they were intended for! 

Isn't that what Amtrak's supposed to do???


----------



## DonNewcomb

20th Century Rider said:


> Pensacola gets no service???


Pensacola is either a necessity or a poison pill to Gulf Coast service. Imagine needing to drive from Mobile to P'cola and being forced to go via Bay Minette and Flomaton. Google Maps tells me Mobile to P'cola is 58 minutes. Adding Flomaton to the route more than doubles the time required. The train operates on the same principle.


----------



## Barb Stout

DonNewcomb said:


> Pensacola is either a necessity or a poison pill to Gulf Coast service. Imagine needing to drive from Mobile to P'cola and being forced to go via Bay Minette and Flomaton. Google Maps tells me Mobile to P'cola is 58 minutes. Adding Flomaton to the route more than doubles the time required. The train operates on the same principle.


I read in another thread a few months ago why adding service back to Pensacola and/or the route to and from there was problematic, but I don't remember why. Can someone with a decent memory comment on this?


----------



## DonNewcomb

Barb Stout said:


> I read in another thread a few months ago why adding service back to Pensacola and/or the route to and from there was problematic, but I don't remember why. Can someone with a decent memory comment on this?


Maybe someone else knows the trackage details (PTC issues, etc). I just know that the tracks run more or less straight out of New Orleans and makes a bee-line into Mobile. From Mobile there is no direct route to P'cola. The tracks turn north and cross the Tensaw river about 15 miles north of Mobile. They then continue northeast through Bay Minette, Atmore and Flomaton where there's a spur that runs 40 miles south to Pensacola. If the train were to continue, after dipping briefly into P'cola the route would turn north again for 8 miles before crossing Escambia Bay to eventually merge with the route of US-90. This is one reason that the Sunset took something like 3 or 4 hours to make a distance (Mobile to P'cola) anyone could drive in one hour.


----------



## Barb Stout

DonNewcomb said:


> Maybe someone else knows the trackage details (PTC issues, etc). I just know that the tracks run more or less straight out of New Orleans and makes a bee-line into Mobile. From Mobile there is no direct route to P'cola. The tracks turn north and cross the Tensaw river about 15 miles north of Mobile. They then continue northeast through Bay Minette, Atmore and Flomaton where there's a spur that runs 40 miles south to Pensacola. If the train were to continue, after dipping briefly into P'cola the route would turn north again for 8 miles before crossing Escambia Bay to eventually merge with the route of US-90. This is one reason that the Sunset took something like 3 or 4 hours to make a distance (Mobile to P'cola) anyone could drive in one hour.


Yeah, that was probably the issue. The thread was with regards to the SSL and why isn't it being re-extended to Jacksonville, FL. Then there was talk about the issues with Pensacola.


----------



## DonNewcomb

Barb Stout said:


> Yeah, that was probably the issue. The thread was with regards to the SSL and why isn't it being re-extended to Jacksonville, FL. Then there was talk about the issues with Pensacola.


I understand that the tracks east of P'cola lack PTC and have other technical issues but I don't know the details.


----------



## Qapla

If they could restore service from JAX to Pensacola - this is a place where a thru bus to Mobile would make sense


----------



## railiner

DonNewcomb said:


> Maybe someone else knows the trackage details (PTC issues, etc). I just know that the tracks run more or less straight out of New Orleans and makes a bee-line into Mobile. From Mobile there is no direct route to P'cola. The tracks turn north and cross the Tensaw river about 15 miles north of Mobile. They then continue northeast through Bay Minette, Atmore and Flomaton where there's a spur that runs 40 miles south to Pensacola. If the train were to continue, after dipping briefly into P'cola the route would turn north again for 8 miles before crossing Escambia Bay to eventually merge with the route of US-90. This is one reason that the Sunset took something like 3 or 4 hours to make a distance (Mobile to P'cola) anyone could drive in one hour.


I was thinking it might be faster nowadays to run the train from Mobile all the way up to Montgomery, then the old _Floridian_ route via Dothan and Waycross to Jacksonville. With the added benefit of serving Montgomery, albeit, missing Tallahassee along the way...


----------



## Hytec

The following was published today in the Sun Herald, MS Coast's newspaper.


----------



## Ryan

Service East of Mobile is made painful by a rather large body of water where some dude once said something about torpedoes and going fast.

Back when I worked LCS, I would routinely fly into PNS rather than MOB. It's a nice, super easy and fast drive across the border to Mobile. Driving to Mobile isn't going to be an impediment.


----------



## DonNewcomb

Ryan said:


> ...... Driving to Mobile isn't going to be an impediment.


Two words, "Tunnel traffic" It hasn't been bad in the last year because of COVID but on any given day it's a crap-shoot if it's going to take 10 minutes or 3 hours.

P.S. Local TV news. AMTRAK to complete platform repairs on Gulf Coast Stations - WXXV 25


----------



## Ryan

I would assume you have more knowledge, but I never once sat in tunnel traffic spending a week down there every month or two from 2015-2019.

Of course, I was usually commuting from the Renaissance Riverview to the Austal yard, so I got to skip any line that may have existed.


----------



## DonNewcomb

Ryan said:


> .....Of course, I was usually commuting from the Renaissance Riverview to the Austal yard, so I got to skip any line that may have existed.


Hopefully you used the Bankhead Tunnel. And yes, you would have missed most of the delays.


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> I was thinking it might be faster nowadays to run the train from Mobile all the way up to Montgomery, then the old _Floridian_ route via Dothan and Waycross to Jacksonville. With the added benefit of serving Montgomery, albeit, missing Tallahassee along the way...


Further to that thought, has anyone thought of routing the Crescent south from Birmingham through Montgomery to Mobile, then to New Orleans as one of the frequencies of the new route?


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> Further to that thought, has anyone thought of routing the Crescent south from Birmingham through Montgomery to Mobile, then to New Orleans as one of the frequencies of the new route?


There was a section of the Crescent known as the Gulf Breeze that ran to Mobile for a short while at one time.









Gulf Breeze (train) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





It never ran all the way to NOL because the timings for that segment were not considered suitable for garnering sufficient local traffic, specially northbound. The prevalent flow between NOL and Mobile also based on various studies, is considered to be Mobile to NOL in the morning and vice-versa in the evening, which is exactly the opposite direction of what the continuation of the Gulf Breeze to NOL would have been.


----------



## Ryan

DonNewcomb said:


> Hopefully you used the Bankhead Tunnel. And yes, you would have missed most of the delays.


Royal goes over the tunnel, and it always felt backward to backtrack far enough to make it onto Government to get the Bankhead. Quicker to duck out the Water Street exit and then make the big 360 to roll out onto 10 just as it dove under the water.

Damn, now I really miss that place. May have to take a train there someday.  

This caught my eye in the article you posted:


> In Mobile, the city plans to locate the rail station at the new Mobile airport at Brookley Field,


"New Mobile Airport" as in commercial service is moving downtown? That would also be amazing.


----------



## Anthony V

The City of Mobile should consider having stations at both the airport _and_ downtown, similar to the station situation in Milwaukee with the Hiawatha Service. This would allow for intermodal trips between train and airplane at the airport station and train and cruise ship at the Cooper Riverside Park station location, as well as being close to the convention center. As far as impacts to the Port of Mobile caused by a downtown station, Amtrak operated a similar NOL-Mobile route twice in it's history, once in the 80's and once in the 90's, with the station at the same site, so there should be some knowledge on the new service's impact on the Port of Mobile. The port's fears of passenger trains impacting the port's operations are WAY overblown.


----------



## railiner

jiml said:


> Further to that thought, has anyone thought of routing the Crescent south from Birmingham through Montgomery to Mobile, then to New Orleans as one of the frequencies of the new route?





jis said:


> There was a section of the Crescent known as the Gulf Breeze that ran to Mobile for a short while at one time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gulf Breeze (train) - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It never ran all the way to NOL because the timings for that segment were not considered suitable for garnering sufficient local traffic, specially northbound. The prevalent flow between NOL and Mobile also based on various studies, is considered to be Mobile to NOL in the morning and vice-versa in the evening, which is exactly the opposite direction of what the continuation of the Gulf Breeze to NOL would have been.



If the Crescent rerouted to its "Crescent Limited" historic route via the CSX between Atlanta and New Orleans, it would be fast, but miss Birmingham, enroute to Montgomery and Mobile. If they ran it on the Gulf Breeze route, besides running at 'the wrong time', it would connect all the dots, but would take much longer to get to New Orleans.

It would also miss the other stops on the current Crescent route. It might be a good idea, if they could run it as a second train all the way to Washington/NY...


----------



## Anthony V

railiner said:


> If the Crescent rerouted to its "Crescent Limited" historic route via the CSX between Atlanta and New Orleans, it would be fast, but miss Birmingham, enroute to Montgomery and Mobile. If they ran it on the Gulf Breeze route, besides running at 'the wrong time', it would connect all the dots, but would take much longer to get to New Orleans.
> 
> It would also miss the other stops on the current Crescent route. It might be a good idea, if they could run it as a second train all the way to Washington/NY...


I agree that the Crescent should be rerouted onto its original route between Atlanta and NOL via Auburn, Montgomery and Mobile, AL. To preserve service to Birmingham, the service west of Atlanta to as far as Meridian, MS would be turned into a new section of the Crescent and extended to Dallas/Fort Worth via Jackson, MS and Shreveport, LA. Service between NOL and Meridian could be served by either a new corridor train between the two cities or a new Thruway Motorcoach service serving the current Crescent stops between the two cities.


----------



## DonNewcomb

Anthony V said:


> The City of Mobile should consider having stations at both the airport _and_ downtown, similar to the station situation in Milwaukee with the Hiawatha Service....


Excuse my ignorance but I don't recall seeing tracks anywhere near Mobile Airport, which is about 12 miles from the CSX tracks used by the proposed route.


----------



## jis

DonNewcomb said:


> Excuse my ignorance but I don't recall seeing tracks anywhere near Mobile Airport, which is about 12 miles from the CSX tracks used by the proposed route.


When one is on a flight of fantasy, the range of the fantasy craft is usually unlimited


----------



## jimdex

Running the Crescent via Mobile would require substantial changes to its overall schedule in order to avoid some very strange arrival/departure times in New Orleans.


----------



## Anthony V

DonNewcomb said:


> Excuse my ignorance but I don't recall seeing tracks anywhere near Mobile Airport, which is about 12 miles from the CSX tracks used by the proposed route.


Mobile is in the process of moving it's commercial aviation services primarily to Brookley Airport, which is a few miles south of Downtown Mobile and adjacent to the CSX tracks. That's where the airport station would be.


----------



## DonNewcomb

https://www.sunherald.com/news/politics-government/article251031509.html?


----------



## Mailliw

Intersing how this has achieved bipartisan support in Mississippi of all places.


----------



## adamj023

Gulf coast contains Texas and Florida which is a huge travel corridor. Both Texas and Florida have expanded their instate rail services. They need connectivity between each other. The problem is due to tropical storms and hurricanes the infrastructure gets destroyed easily so they need a more resilient infrastructure and cost of rebuilding is high.


----------



## west point

The Pensacola super horse shoe adds about 45 minutes extra. Unfortunately eliminating it would leave Pensacola with service even further away from downtown than Maricopa does PHX.


----------



## railiner

west point said:


> The Pensacola super horse shoe adds about 45 minutes extra. Unfortunately eliminating it would leave Pensacola with service even further away from downtown than Maricopa does PHX.


That's the reason St. Petersburg lost its Amtrak service (trains), years ago...takes too long to get around Tampa Bay.


----------



## west point

This FRA grant may get the restoration folks talking that it will happen. IMO not likely. Suspect that much more work will be needed to increase MAX track speeds before.any service will be possible,

*3. Florida Gulf & Atlantic Railroad, LLC – Florida Panhandle Rural Capacity Expansion Project: *Up to $8,300,000 will be used to replace approximately 70,000 ties, install approximately 14,300 new ties, rehabilitate 11 sidings, and repair 60 grade crossings between Jacksonville and Pensacola, Fla., to increase line capacity. Class III FGA will provide most of a 50% match, with contributions from three private-sector sources. _(ASLRRA member)_


----------



## Cal

Can we get a daily sunset first?


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> Can we get a daily sunset first?


The restoration of service proposed by the Southern Rail Commission does not involve the Sunset Limited in any way.


----------



## TWA904

I have thought about contacting some of CSX's largest stockholders and explain the problem and ask them to put pressure on CSX to drop their objections to the Mobile - NO service.


----------



## PaTrainFan

TWA904 said:


> I have thought about contacting some of CSX's largest stockholders and explain the problem and ask them to put pressure on CSX to drop their objections to the Mobile - NO service.


Your passion is laudable and please, have at it. But do you think they really care? This is minutiae to them.


----------



## DonNewcomb

Amtrak breaks ground for new Gulf Coast platform, though route still uncertain


----------



## cassie225

Hope that new platform does not end of being like a brand new bridge they built here in Louisiana that my hubbie took me to see when we first moved here. A bridge to no where. Beautiful bridge that if I remember correctly that ended in a sugar cane field. Lol


----------



## DonNewcomb

cassie225 said:


> Hope that new platform does not end of being like a brand new bridge they built here in Louisiana that my hubbie took me to see when we first moved here. A bridge to no where. Beautiful bridge that if I remember correctly that ended in a sugar cane field. Lol


You mean the Sunshine Bridge? Not exactly "nowhere" but not a lot of anywhere, either.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

If Amtrak’s Gulf Coast expansion goes through, taxpayers will be on the hook


----------



## mlanoue

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If Amtrak’s Gulf Coast expansion goes through, taxpayers will be on the hook


_Benjamin Dierker is the director of public policy at the Alliance for Innovation and Infrastructure._

Benjamin Dierker should know that if any Innovation and Infrastructure goes through anywhere, taxpayers will be on the hook.


----------



## zetharion

Doesn't anything Amtrak does put the taxpayers on the hook?


----------



## Anderson

zetharion said:


> Doesn't anything Amtrak does put the taxpayers on the hook?


Yeah, since even if by Amtrak's accounting a state route manages to "make money", somehow Amtrak will fiddle with the overhead to ensure the state pays Amtrak something.


----------



## GDRRiley

Anderson said:


> Yeah, since even if by Amtrak's accounting a state route manages to "make money", somehow Amtrak will fiddle with the overhead to ensure the state pays Amtrak something.


state routes should make money or break even because Amtrak operates them and the state pays a fix per mile cost.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If Amtrak’s Gulf Coast expansion goes through, taxpayers will be on the hook


I would be more credible if they had more detail and suggested other runs that would be better value for $


----------



## Anderson

GDRRiley said:


> state routes should make money or break even because Amtrak operates them and the state pays a fix per mile cost.


Except that that's not how the funding formulas work. Amtrak gets to unload an unholy amount of overhead (arguably worthy of a Hollywood studio) off onto routes (e.g. marketing expenses even if Amtrak hasn't actually spent anything marketing the route in question).


----------



## alpha3

Good stuff! I hope they can extend the Sunset back to at least Jacksonville Fl.


----------



## IanDBeacon

alpha3 said:


> Good stuff! I hope they can extend the Sunset back to at least Jacksonville Fl.


That or entirely new service between NOLA and at least Miami.


----------



## zephyr17

alpha3 said:


> Good stuff! I hope they can extend the Sunset back to at least Jacksonville Fl.


Not happening. This is for corridor service from New Orleans to Mobile, not beyond Mobile. Sunset East is about as dead as dead can be.


----------



## GDRRiley

zephyr17 said:


> Not happening. This is for corridor service from New Orleans to Mobile, not beyond Mobile. Sunset East is about as dead as dead can be.


I wouldn't be so sure its dead. the shortline there would need class 4 track (60mph freight 80mph amtrak) and PTC.
UP cost for PTC for the coast line 1m for 10 miles. ~40m for the 400 mile mainline if the lack it.

Given CSX last used it as a main track I'd assume its got CTC not hand thrown switches


zephyr17 said:


> My own opinion is CSX blinked. They anticipated the STB was going to rule against them on access and didn't want that opinion on the record as the STB likely would have reiterated statutory access rights at "avoidable cost" and denied their 2050 capacity fantasies as not being avoidable costs.


I also wonder if CSX got a pushback from other class 1. I doubt other brass from NS or UP would be happy that CSX resulted in them being forced to comply with amtraks request for more service.


----------



## zephyr17

GDRRiley said:


> I wouldn't be so sure its dead. the shortline there would need class 4 track (60mph freight 80mph amtrak) and PTC.


Amtrak actually kicked in to raise it back to Class 3 when they instituted Sunset East service. It is mostly dark, IIRC, but I think Amtrak kicked in for some CTC islands at that time. Much of it was never Class 4.

The issues are not just the current condition of the route and that a big chunk has been spun off to a short line, but also Amtrak's utter disinterest in reviving it as a National Network route.

As far as I am concerned, there are a LOT of things Amtrak should be addressing if it ever gets serious about preserving, let alone expanding, the National Network. NOL-JAX, though it represents a hole in the network, is pretty far down the list. There are a lot of other holes to go along with it, like no north-south services between the Chicago-New Orleans and Los Angeles-Seattle, Chicago-Florida service, etc, etc.


----------



## Anthony V

GDRRiley said:


> I wouldn't be so sure its dead. the shortline there would need class 4 track (60mph freight 80mph amtrak) and PTC.
> UP cost for PTC for the coast line 1m for 10 miles. ~40m for the 400 mile mainline if the lack it.
> 
> Given CSX last used it as a main track I'd assume its got CTC not hand thrown switches
> 
> I also wonder if CSX got a pushback from other class 1. I doubt other brass from NS or UP would be happy that CSX resulted in them being forced to comply with amtraks request for more service.


Actually, with the Florida, Gulf and Atlantic Railroad's purchase of the CSX rail line in the Florida Panhandle in 2019, the likelihood of an agreement being reached for Amtrak to return to the Florida Panhandle route in the event such an agreement is sought has actually _increased._ This is because smaller railroads are far more likely to play nice and not make unreasonable capital demands to share tracks with passenger trains than Class I railroads are. A shortline railroad's costs and revenues are naturally lower than a Class I's (often measured in millions rather than billions of dollars). Because of this, they see the track usage fees they would collect from a passenger rail operator in exchange for them sharing tracks with passenger trains as a lucrative source of revenue. These fees often make up a larger portion of shortline's annual revenue than they do to a class I railroad. This would usually motivate a smaller railroad to negotiate in good faith when it comes to hosting passenger trains over their tracks.


----------



## GDRRiley

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak actually kicked in to raise it back to Class 3 when they instituted Sunset East service. It is mostly dark, IIRC, but I think Amtrak kicked in for some CTC islands at that time. Much of it was never Class 4.


You don't need CTC all the way but it does often make service more reliable. Class 4 isn't a must you could even target get nearly all to class 3 and that may increase speeds almost as much as a few sections being class 4.
50mph average would put Mobile to jacksonville at ~10 hours


zephyr17 said:


> The issues are not just the current condition of the route and that a big chunk has been spun off to a short line, but also Amtrak's utter disinterest in reviving it as a National Network route.


That was old CEOs amtrak seems more intrested now in adding to their network. Connect US is about filling in lots of those missing routes with corridor service no reason why you couldn't mix those same investments with some more LD trains.


Anthony V said:


> Because of this, they see the track usage fees they would collect from a passenger rail operator in exchange for them sharing tracks with passenger trains as a lucrative source of revenue. These fees often make up a larger portion of shortline's annual revenue than they do to a class I railroad. This would usually motivate a smaller railroad to negotiate in good faith when it comes to hosting passenger trains over their tracks.


Its also an easy way to get much needed upgrades on someone else dime if you aren't too greedy about it. 
I suggested they should start with 2RT a day on it to have a 100-150m in upgrades make some level of sense.


----------



## jis

There is a definite possibility of a daily train NOL MOB JAX ORL some day. There is zero chance of Sunset East happening.

I don’t think Florida will contribute much at the state level to operate a Gulf coast Service to JAX/ORL. Local towns enroute might contribute some.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> There is zero chance of Sunset East happening.



I totally agree and if this is one of the things that comes out of the Long distance study I suspect Amtrak would much rather and be more likely to extend the CONO to Orlando than extend the Sunset again.

On the main topic it’s great to see this occur and a positive sign in general for the prospects of any of the expansion ideas.


----------



## TransitTyrant

Anthony V said:


> Actually, with the Florida, Gulf and Atlantic Railroad's purchase of the CSX rail line in the Florida Panhandle in 2019, the likelihood of an agreement being reached for Amtrak to return to the Florida Panhandle route in the event such an agreement is sought has actually _increased._ This is because smaller railroads are far more likely to play nice and not make unreasonable capital demands to share tracks with passenger trains than Class I railroads are. A shortline railroad's costs and revenues are naturally lower than a Class I's (often measured in millions rather than billions of dollars). Because of this, they see the track usage fees they would collect from a passenger rail operator in exchange for them sharing tracks with passenger trains as a lucrative source of revenue. These fees often make up a larger portion of shortline's annual revenue than they do to a class I railroad. This would usually motivate a smaller railroad to negotiate in good faith when it comes to hosting passenger trains over their tracks.


That’s not always true, Iowa Interstate in Illinois has been fighting with IDOT for over a decade on running trains to Moline. Illinois has federal and state money to start the service but still no operating agreement. The Buckingham Branch is supposedly the reason why there isn’t a daily Cardinal yet, they’re refusing. Class IIs and IIIs are just as bad as the Is.


----------



## Anthony V

TransitTyrant said:


> That’s not always true, Iowa Interstate in Illinois has been fighting with IDOT for over a decade on running trains to Moline. Illinois has federal and state money to start the service but still no operating agreement. The Buckingham Branch is supposedly the reason why there isn’t a daily Cardinal yet, they’re refusing. Class IIs and IIIs are just as bad as the Is.


I know it isn't. I was just speaking in a general sense on the matter. There are always going to be railroads of all sizes differing in how they treat passenger rail operators.


----------



## jis

MikefromCrete said:


> The agreement is significant in that is will allow twice daily service between New Orleans and Mobile. It is a significant victory for passenger train advocates since CSX has suffered a defeat in its attempt to stop all new passenger service on its tracks and hopefully other freight railroads will back off from trying to make unreasonable demands about new service.
> But this does not protend a return of the Sunset East. That will be another battle.


There is no plan to restore the Sunset East. There is a plan to run a daily service between New Orleans and Florida. It could either be a self standing service or an extension of the CONO.


----------



## Mailliw

I think a stand-alone service would a better choice than extending the CONO.


----------



## George Harris

Mailliw said:


> I think a stand-alone service would a better choice than extending the CONO.


Absolutely. Should have two sets of equipment. It is about a three hour run. There should be at least a morning and a late afternoon run from both ends, and there could be a mid day one as well without need for extra equipment. Have about a five mile long section of second main about midways between end points.


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts on Chicago to Florida service via New Orleans by extending the CONO to JAX/Orlando have been moved to a separate thread on that subject:






Potential Chicago - Florida service via New Orleans


Agree, extending CONO to Orlando or JAX would be a roundabout way of providing Chicago to Florida service




www.amtraktrains.com





Please continue the Chicago - Florida service discussion in this new thread and leave the current thread for discussion about restoration of Gulf Coast Service between New Orleans and Florida.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


----------



## joelkfla

Mailliw said:


> I think a stand-alone service would a better choice than extending the CONO.


I disagree. I think a one-seat (or one-room) ride to CHI would garner more FL passengers.


----------



## alpha3

jis said:


> There is no plan to restore the Sunset East. There is a plan to run a daily service between New Orleans and Florida. It could either be a self standing service or an extension of the CONO.


OK- forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but why not??? The Sunset once ran all the way down to ORL, and doubtless Amtrak has lots of data on how that ridership was. If they had good loads, why not resurrect it as one of the frequencies? And I think it could certainly work as far as Jacksonville, which is a big city and large Amtrak facility. 

The second frequency would be a stand-alone.


----------



## lordsigma

alpha3 said:


> OK- forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but why not??? The Sunset once ran all the way down to ORL, and doubtless Amtrak has lots of data on how that ridership was. If they had good loads, why not resurrect it as one of the frequencies? And I think it could certainly work as far as Jacksonville, which is a big city and large Amtrak facility.
> 
> The second frequency would be a stand-alone.



For one - The Sunset Limited is a 3 times a week train. A stand-alone day running train or an extension to the CONO would provide more meaningful daily service. Secondly the Sunset NOL - LAX is a two night train and it’s OTP isn’t the greatest. Extending the sunset back to Florida really is just too long. The other options would both allow for connections west for those who want to go cross country.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I disagree. I think a one-seat (or one-room) ride to CHI would garner more FL passengers.


It really is a tradeoff. CONO extension provides for a somewhat better cross New Orleans through passenger possibilities. OTOH it also introduces some amount of schedule unreliability which is to be avoided as far as possible for a regional service. 

An independent train also gives more flexibility for adjusting the schedule for maximum local convenience.

Ideally we would want this train to provide daytime service between New Orleans and JAX to the best extent possible. Unfortunately that would make it difficult to provide good connections at NOL and JAX, so there are some tradeoff to be considered, and usually connections seem to take precedence so the enroute stations, at least several of them get oh-dark-thirty stops.


----------



## jis

alpha3 said:


> OK- forgive me if I'm being obtuse, but why not??? The Sunset once ran all the way down to ORL, and doubtless Amtrak has lots of data on how that ridership was. If they had good loads, why not resurrect it as one of the frequencies?


Apparently all the data that Amtrak has caused them to decide not to continue running it the first opportunity they got, and they have never relented on that. Additionally it was a bit of a headache preparing a train that had been on the road already for over two days to do another day while some passengers were on board in addition to never knowing when it will actually show up. It had a loooong layover at NOL eastbound, hoping to absorb most of the schedule uncertainty, so much so that it might as well have been another train. And then of course there is the issue of a three times a week train. No one in their right mind wants that either, and no one will fund such a thing.


> And I think it could certainly work as far as Jacksonville, which is a big city and large Amtrak facility.


I would not call a single platform with two tracks facility large, but yes it is bigger than most Amtrak LD stations in the hinterland, though not uncommon on the Atlantic Coast Line.


----------



## Qapla

With the size of Jacksonville and how busy JAX can be, you' think the station would be bigger

This is the JAX station - as you can see, not much parking 




And not all that much seating


----------



## alpha3

jis said:


> It had a loooong layover at NOL eastbound, hoping to absorb_ most of the schedule uncertainty, _so much so that it might as well have been another train. And then of course there is the issue of a three times a week train. No one in their right mind wants that either, and no one will fund such a thing.


Huh. thanks, had no idea it sat in NOL a long time, what was the layover? And I knew it could run late but didn't think it was any worse than the other LD trains.


jis said:


> I would not call a single platform with two tracks facility large, but yes it is bigger than most Amtrak LD stations in the hinterland, though not uncommon on the Atlantic Coast Line.


I did think Amtrak JAX was much bigger- a friend in MIA who worked for Amtrak gave me the impression it was quite large. But I see from QAPLA's photos above it's not quite what he said.


----------



## joelkfla

Qapla said:


> With the size of Jacksonville and how busy JAX can be, you' think the station would be bigger
> 
> This is the JAX station - as you can see, not much parking
> View attachment 30509
> 
> 
> 
> And not all that much seating
> 
> View attachment 30510


But don't they have storage track and the ability to turn trains there?


----------



## jis

alpha3 said:


> Huh. thanks, had no idea it sat in NOL a long time, what was the layover? And I knew it could run late but didn't think it was any worse than the other LD trains.


Its layover was close to 5 hours eastbound and a couple of hours westbound.


> I did think Amtrak JAX was much bigger- a friend in MIA who worked for Amtrak gave me the impression it was quite large. But I see from QAPLA's photos above it's not quite what he said.


See below for what tracks it has. The station building does not have enough space to hold a trainfull as we found out one time when the Silver Star was evacuated at JAX due to a bomb scare after 9/11. We got to spend the night looking at the Stars and the Moon from the JAX parking lot instead of in our Sleeper beds. Finally the train was released by the VIPER Squad at around 6am to proceed North.


joelkfla said:


> But don't they have storage track and the ability to turn trains there?


There are two platform tracks and one track leading to a MHC platform which is currently not used. The second platform track is used only on those rare occasion when two Silvers show up there at the same time. In the past it was used for overnight turning of the Palmetto when it ran to JAX. Now it turns on the second platform track at Savannah. The facilities at Savannah and JAX are similar, except IIRC JAX has one more platform track that is currently unused. SAV appears to store a few PVs on their third track.

Orlando is bigger than both in every way. Tampa also has two platform tracks, one high level and one low level, as does Winter Park (both low level) in Central Florida. Of course everything south of West Palm Beach inclusive have two platform tracks in South Florida. Tampa has a very spacious waiting hall, much larger than Orlando's.

There are a couple of Wyes by the JAX Yard where both the route to Baldwin and Palatka take off. But typically reversing a train at JAX station was done at Grand Jct just south of the station. The Sunset was turned there to carry on into Florida and vice versa and the Palmetto was turned there when it ran to JAX. There is nothing at the Amtrak station for doing so.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Its layover was close to 5 hours eastbound and a couple of hours westbound.
> 
> See below for what tracks it has. The station building does not have enough space to hold a trainfull as we found out one time when the Silver Star was evacuated at JAX due to a bomb scare after 9/11. We got to spend the night looking at the Stars and the Moon from the JAX parking lot instead of in our Sleeper beds. Finally the train was released by the VIPER Squad at around 6am to proceed North.
> 
> There are two platform tracks and one track leading to a MHC platform which is currently not used. The second platform track is used only on those rare occasion when two Silvers show up there at the same time. In the past it was used for overnight turning of the Palmetto when it ran to JAX. Now it turns on the second platform track at Savannah. The facilities at Savannah and JAX are similar.
> 
> Orlando is bigger than both in every way. Tampa also has two platform tracks, one high level and one low level, as does Winter Park (both low level) in Central Florida. Of course everything south of West Palm Beach inclusive have two platform tracks in South Florida. Tampa has a very spacious waiting hall, much larger than Orlando's.
> 
> There are a couple of Wyes by the JAX Yard where both the route to Baldwin and Palatka take off. That is where trains are turned if needed. There is nothing at the Amtrak station for doing so.


So where could a CONO extended to FL be turned overnight?

Could it spend the night on the 3rd track next to the center platform in Orlando? I've never seen that platform used, but I noticed there's a wheelchair lift on it, so it must be active.



Could it terminate at JAX and then proceed to Sanford Auto Train terminal for overnight and servicing, or at ORL & back up to Sanford?

Or would it have to continue to TPA or MIA?


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> So where could a CONO extended to FL be turned overnight?
> 
> Could it spend the night on the 3rd track next to the center platform in Orlando? I've never seen that platform used, but I noticed there's a wheelchair lift on it, so it must be active.
> View attachment 30512


I have seen it used when two of the Silvers turn up at Orlando at the same time. They cannot use the second track because that is used by SunRail to get by to their platform when a Silver is occupying the first track. I have actually boarded a Silver Meteor on the third track more than once.


> Could it terminate at JAX and then proceed to Sanford Auto Train terminal for overnight and servicing, or at ORL & back up to Sanford?
> 
> Or would it have to continue to TPA or MIA?


I doubt that a service from NOL will terminate at JAX. ORL is just too tempting a terminus. When the Sunset turned at ORL it actually did the turning somewhere near Sanford. It was serviced at the Auto Train facility in Sanford.

The train has to be reversed at JAX anyway to proceed from NOL towards ORL and vice-versa and that used to be done at Grand Jct just south of the JAX station, I presume that will be done again.


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## Amtrak709

jis said:


> I have seen it used when two of the Silvers turn up at Orlando at the same time. They cannot use the second track because that is used by SunRail to get by to their platform when a Silver is occupying the first track. I have actually boarded a Silver Meteor on the third track more than once.
> 
> I doubt that a service from NOL will terminate at JAX. ORL is just too tempting a terminus. When the Sunset turned at ORL it actually did the turning somewhere near Sanford. It was serviced at the Auto Train facility in Sanford.
> 
> The train has to be reversed at JAX anyway to proceed from NOL towards ORL and vice-versa and that used to be done at Grand Jct just south of the JAX station, I presume that will be done again.
> 
> View attachment 30513


jis:
I'm the guy who lived in Daytona Beach for the 1970's 80's and 90's and passionately awaited the Sunset panhandle return in 1993 (I rode the first trip of the return NOL-DLD in April 1993). Of course, Katrina ended all that + I moved to Georgia in 1998--so I, perhaps, do not care as much as to what might happen now. As noted in previous posts you seem to have a good handle on the pulse of the current situation. There seems to be a lot of "don't hold your breath" speculation. What do *YOU* really think is the likely initial outcome of the Gulf Coast initiatives??


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## jis

Amtrak709 said:


> jis:
> I'm the guy who lived in Daytona Beach for the 1970's 80's and 90's and passionately awaited the Sunset panhandle return in 1993 (I rode the first trip of the return NOL-DLD in April 1993). Of course, Katrina ended all that + I moved to Georgia in 1998--so I, perhaps, do not care as much as to what might happen now. As noted in previous posts you seem to have a good handle on the pulse of the current situation. There seems to be a lot of "don't hold your breath" speculation. What do *YOU* really think is the likely initial outcome of the Gulf Coast initiatives??


The service to Mobile will happen relatively soon. As for if/when service to Florida will happen, who knows? But the fact that it is on the radar of the Southern Rail Commission, I think, gives it a better than even chance of happening at some point in time.


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## Qapla

If it were still possible to go between Tallahassee and Gainesville, I think there may be more interest if connecting both Universities by train - but, since the tracks are no longer in place and Gainesville, unlike Tallahassee. doesn't even have a "closed" depot that could be "opened" - the aspect of pushing to get the train to JAX will be "back-burner" at best.

It really is a shame that the train can no longer run through Ocala and Gainesville with all the retirees in both areas.


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## zephyr17

joelkfla said:


> Could it terminate at JAX and then proceed to Sanford Auto Train terminal for overnight and servicing, or at ORL & back up to Sanford?


When the Sunset ran to Orlando, it was turned and serviced in Sanford The one time I rode it LAX-ORL the dining car crew got actually off in Sanford and didn't ride all the way into Orlando. After passengers were detrained in Orlando, the consist was backed up to Sanford for servicing.

So sure, running to Orlando and servicing in Sanford is possible. The issue is Amtrak very simply does not want to, and, in fact, does not to add any long distance services, anywhere. If you don't believe me, look at their ConnectUS proposals.


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## ascii42

zephyr17 said:


> When the Sunset ran to Orlando, it was turned and serviced in Sanford The one time I rode it LAX-ORL the dining car crew got actually off in Sanford and didn't ride all the way into Orlando. After passengers were detrained in Orlando, the consist was backed up to Sanford for servicing.
> 
> So sure, running to Orlando and servicing in Sanford is possible. The issue is Amtrak very simply does not want to, and, in fact, does not to add any long distance services, anywhere. If you don't believe me, look at their ConnectUS proposals.


Yeah, though I'm curious what will come out of the long distance service restoration study they are doing. If I'm not mistaken the Connects Us plan predates that being a part of the infrastructure act.


Qapla said:


> If it were still possible to go between Tallahassee and Gainesville, I think there may be more interest if connecting both Universities by train - but, since the tracks are no longer in place and Gainesville, unlike Tallahassee. doesn't even have a "closed" depot that could be "opened" - the aspect of pushing to get the train to JAX will be "back-burner" at best.
> 
> It really is a shame that the train can no longer run through Ocala and Gainesville with all the retirees in both areas.


Back when I went to the University of Florida, that would have been nice as my home was in the Tallahassee area. Fortunately there was at least Greyhound the couple times I needed to make the trip without a car.


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## GDRRiley

zephyr17 said:


> So sure, running to Orlando and servicing in Sanford is possible. The issue is Amtrak very simply does not want to, and, in fact, does not to add any long distance services, anywhere. If you don't believe me, look at their ConnectUS proposals.


Connect US was all about filling in missing local routes.
The FRA are studying LD routes, the report of which will be out near the end of 2023. Its looking at routes amtrak has canned over the years and routes amtrak didn't chose to run


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## Shanson

Actually, there is a depot in Gainesville FL, but it's restaurants and there's no track, just a bicycle trail.

199 SE Depot Ave








Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




maps.app.goo.gl


----------



## zephyr17

GDRRiley said:


> Connect US was all about filling in missing local routes.
> The FRA are studying LD routes, the report of which will be out near the end of 2023. Its looking at routes amtrak has canned over the years and routes amtrak didn't chose to run


ConnectUS was Amtrak's management vision of the future, which is all corridors. Amtrak could have included LD if they wanted to, it is well within their mandate. They deliberately chose not to. The FRA is doing what Amtrak management refuses to do.


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## zephyr17

ascii42 said:


> Yeah, though I'm curious what will come out of the long distance service restoration study they are doing. If I'm not mistaken the Connects Us plan predates that being a part of the infrastructure act.


ConnectUS was not part of any legislative act. It is wholly a proposition by Amtrak management.

Amtrak isn't doing the long distance study. The FRA is.

That says something in and of itself.


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## GDRRiley

zephyr17 said:


> ConnectUS was Amtrak's management vision of the future, which is all corridors. Amtrak could have included LD if they wanted to, it is well within their mandate. They deliberately chose not to. The FRA is doing what Amtrak management refuses to do.


Amtrak has stated after 2008 they didn't belive they could add any more LD routes as congress had mandated what routes they could run. Without congress asking for it then why would they spend money and time studying routes they can not add?


zephyr17 said:


> That says something in and of itself.


No it doesn't.
the FRA has had some very strange influences on Amtrak, the 750m LD rule in place now was them. I believe the earlier 150m rule when Amtrak started came from McKinsey the feds favorite consultants at that time who created Amtrak and Conrail but I wouldn't be suprised if it came from the FRA


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## MARC Rider

Given a limited budget (even with the infrastructure bill, Amtrak has limited resources), why should Amtrak make any effort to expand the number of long-distance routes? Rail is an optimal transport mode for trips of 500 miles or less, so of course Amtrak is going to focus on routes of that length. The New Orleans - Jacksonville corridor has to stand on its own merits and should have trains that are scheduled for the convenience of passengers traveling between New Orleans, Jacksonville and intermediate stations. Relying on long-distance trains to make up the corridor service is not a good idea because they don't reliably run to schedule. Even on the NEC, northbound trains from Washington to New York and Boston are running delayed because so many of them come up from Virginia, where they are subject to the tender mercies of CSX and NS. Perhaps when the New Orleans - Jacksonville corridor is established and successfully running, it might be possible to extend a long-distance train over it. By then, at least, the long-distance train will be sharing the overhead costs with the corridor service, and thus the financial performance of the long-distance train might look better.


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## GDRRiley

MARC Rider said:


> Given a limited budget (even with the infrastructure bill, Amtrak has limited resources), why should Amtrak make any effort to expand the number of long-distance routes?


Amtrak has money that is tied to LD equipment and upgrades only. Amtrak would expand because thats what congress wants.
most of what amtrak does is not because a smart group of people is planning out expansions, its all political.


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## zephyr17

GDRRiley said:


> Amtrak has stated after 2008 they didn't belive they could add any more LD routes as congress had mandated what routes they could run.


Per PRIIA, they can't initiate corridor services themselves. So why study them since they cannot do that, either?

Because they wanted to drum up political support from the states for corridors.

I would have hoped that a blue sky document on Amtrak's future, which is what ConnectUS purported to be, would have included both. Especially since per currently in force legislation, they could initiate neither new corridors nor long distance services themselves. That LDs were entirely absent from it still says something about Amtrak management's attitude, since it was wholly hypothetical anyway.


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## zephyr17

GDRRiley said:


> its all political.


As it has been for Amtrak's entire existence.


----------



## Qapla

Shanson said:


> Actually, there is a depot in Gainesville FL, but it's restaurants and there's no track, just a bicycle trail.



Ah! But that is not now, nor has it ever been an Amtrak depot.

That depot was built around 1860 to serve the Florida Railroad, which reached Gainesville from Fernandina in 1859. Depot operations were moved to a new building where East University Avenue crossed the rail line in January, 1948. That depot ceased operation as a train depot and in 1988, the City of Gainesville (who owned the depot) deeded the building to the Santa Fe College Endowment Corporation. The Old Train Depot on N.W. 6th Street is presently part of the downtown campus of Santa Fe College

There are no longer any tracks running to that location. Likewise, the depot in the picture above also does not have any tracks. The tracks from Waldo to Gainesville were removed and the eastbound lanes of Hwy 24 now occupy that space.

So, when it comes to restoring service from NO to JAX and beyond, Gainesville is out of the picture unless new tracks are built - however, the Waldo station is still standing with double tracks and a ground level platform - just closed and disused.


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## jis

Qapla said:


> So, when it comes to restoring service from NO to JAX and beyond, Gainesville is out of the picture unless new tracks are built - however, the Waldo station is still standing with double tracks and a ground level platform - just closed and disused.


Neither Waldo, nor Gainesville is in any natural alignment between NOL and JAX. There has never been any direct connection to either of those two as part of a NOL - JAX service.

The CSX main line through Waldo is a North-South oriented line, part of the Baldwin(JAX) to Lakeland/Plant City corridor which at one time hosted the Silver Palm and sections of other Silver service trains from time to time. Baldwin is wgere it meets the East-West JAX - MOB line. CSX still owns the JAX - Baldwin segment. West of Baldwin is a Short Line property now.


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## Qapla

Yes, that is why my post included the words "and beyond" (when it comes to restoring service from NO to JAX and beyond) - as several brought up running the train to Orlando after JAX

I am well acquainted with the N/S line that runs through Waldo as I went to elementary school in Waldo and still live near this line.


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## Amtrak709

jis said:


> Neither Waldo, nor Gainesville is in any natural alignment between NOL and JAX. There has never been any direct connection to either of those two as part of a NOL - JAX service.
> 
> The CSX main line through Waldo is a North-South oriented line, part of the Baldwin(JAX) to Lakeland/Plant City corridor which at one time hosted the Silver Palm and sections of other Silver service trains from time to time. Baldwin is wgere it meets the East-West JAX - MOB line. CSX still owns the JAX - Baldwin segment. West of Baldwin is a Short Line property n





jis said:


> The service to Mobile will happen relatively soon. As for if/when service to Florida will happen, who knows? But the fact that it is on the radar of the Southern Rail Commission, I think, gives it a better than even chance of happening at some point in time.


jis: Thanks for you prompt response yesterday. Since moving to Georgia in late 1998, my interest in this issue is not nearly as great as it was back when I lived in Daytona Beach--but it is still there. As I may have reported previously, my office in Daytona Beach was on the site of the old demolished Daytona Beach railroad station right on the FEC mainline. I confess that of the dozens of movements I saw out of my window daily, I wondered if I would ever see a passenger train pass my window. That, of course, never happened. I am still interested in Florida rail services.
I noticed that your location is "Space Coast Florida". I lived in Palm Bay from 1979-1982. Have not been back there since. I bet I would NOT recognize it.
Thanks again for all you posts.


----------



## jis

Amtrak709 said:


> jis: Thanks for you prompt response yesterday. Since moving to Georgia in late 1998, my interest in this issue is not nearly as great as it was back when I lived in Daytona Beach--but it is still there. As I may have reported previously, my office in Daytona Beach was on the site of the old demolished Daytona Beach railroad station right on the FEC mainline. I confess that of the dozens of movements I saw out of my window daily, I wondered if I would ever see a passenger train pass my window. That, of course, never happened. I am still interested in Florida rail services.
> I noticed that your location is "Space Coast Florida". I lived in Palm Bay from 1979-1982. Have not been back there since. I bet I would NOT recognize it.
> Thanks again for all you posts.


Daytona Beach might yet see Brightline Service if they do the Cocoa - JAX segment after Tampa goes into service. They have acquired early permits and have been proactively preserving necessary easements for a potential service to JAX. But we'll see. I sometimes wonder if some day there would be a service connecting Miami-Dade with Tallahassee via JAX.

I live in West Melbourne, adjacent to Palm Bay. You are right in thinking that you will not recognize Palm Bay, or even Melbourne for that matter.


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## jis

Qapla said:


> Yes, that is why my post included the words "and beyond" (when it comes to restoring service from NO to JAX and beyond) - as several brought up running the train to Orlando after JAX


Good point! The Southern Rail Commission in its various full Gulf Coast Restoration information pages clearly shows the Florida end point of the restored service as Orlando, not Jacksonville

Gulf Coast comprehensive passenger rail - Southern Rail Commission


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## west point

If a short cut eliminating JAX was ever to be contemplated maybe the abandoned SOU / GS&F line Lake City to Palatka could at least be restored to intersect the SAL line from JAX - Waldo -Ocala - Lakeland. Wonder how many hours that would save? Unfortunately Abandoned line from Ocala to Orlando not viable.


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## NativeSon5859

Probably just a glitch but if you search by schedule, westbound, this is what comes up for the Sunset Limited. All subsequent stops to NOL are shown.


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## jis

NativeSon5859 said:


> Probably just a glitch but if you search by schedule, westbound, this is what comes up for the Sunset Limited. All subsequent stops to NOL are shown.


Route contribution by dysfunctional IT department?  Now only if they can conjure up funding out of thin air....


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## Amtrak709

jis said:


> Route contribution by dysfunctional IT department?  Now only if they can conjure up funding out of thin air....


Even though I miss certain things about having lived in Daytona Beach in the 1970's 1980's and until 1998 before moving to Georgia, I am sure glad I don't have to spend my entire existence worrying about the potential of Florida panhandle service as I did until the Sunset started in 1993. I will depend on jis and all the rest of you knowledgeable posters to speculate.


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## NativeSon5859

I thought some of you would like to see the new signs and platforms going up in Bay St. Louis, Gulfport, Biloxi, and Pascagoula. I took these pics today. Sone are completely finished, some are almost finished. 

It’s very exciting for me personally to see the Amtrak logo proudly displayed once again after 17 years in these communities. 

Pascagoula still has an old Amtrak sign circa 1993 but I’m sure that’ll be gone soon.


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## NativeSon5859

Continued…


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## Metra Electric Rider

Nice to see that! Thanks for posting those pictures - real, concrete progress!


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## daybeers

Wow, I had no idea this was happening so quickly! Thanks for the pictures. Exciting!


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## AmtrakMaineiac

Looks like the Biloxi station has moved from the location of the original station used by the L&N. Perhaps because the station building was now in private hands.




(These were taken back in 1972 not long after the demise of the L&N passenger trains that were not taken over by Amtrak)


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## jiml

Metra Electric Rider said:


> real, concrete progress!


Well said - especially in the case of the last two pictures. Seriously though, it proves Amtrak was going ahead with this despite whatever obstacles were encountered rather than waiting for negotiations, etc., to complete before putting a shovel in the ground. Along with new equipment orders, this is right up there with positive signs for the future.


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## Metra Electric Rider

jiml said:


> Well said - especially in the case of the last two pictures. Seriously though, it proves Amtrak was going ahead with this despite whatever obstacles were encountered rather than waiting for negotiations, etc., to complete before putting a shovel in the ground. Along with new equipment orders, this is right up there with positive signs for the future.


I was sort of thinking the same thing along those lines - they got construction going pretty quickly (although isn't some of this the local municipalities as well?) after the negotiations.


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## NativeSon5859

Do you think a Thruway bus connection between Mobile and Jacksonville (stopping in, say, Pensacola and Tallahassee) would be useful since train service east of Mobile is unlikely? Or do you think it’s not worth the effort?


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## jis

NativeSon5859 said:


> Do you think a Thruway bus connection between Mobile and Jacksonville (stopping in, say, Pensacola and Tallahassee) would be useful since train service east of Mobile is unlikely? Or do you think it’s not worth the effort?


It is one of the alternatives in the analysis that Amtrak did for the Southern Rail Commission. It will be a long bus ride.


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## NativeSon5859

jis said:


> It is one of the alternatives in the analysis that Amtrak did for the Southern Rail Commission. It will be a ling bus ride.


Yeah, definitely. 

The selling of the Pensacola-Baldwin segment to the short line RR has really hindered the chances for that segment to come back, but who knows? Money talks.


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## Qapla

Thruway bus to Tallahassee and train from there to JAX would be better


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## jis

Qapla said:


> Thruway bus to Tallahassee and train from there to JAX would be better


The option in the Southern Rail Commission Plan is either train all the way from NOL to ORL or Thruway Bus from MOB to JAX.


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## MARC Rider

jis said:


> It is one of the alternatives in the analysis that Amtrak did for the Southern Rail Commission. It will be a long bus ride.


According to Google Maps, it's about 400 miles via I-10 and takes 5:34 in a car. So I would imagine 6-6 1/2 hours in a bus. I guess it could be speeded up if they had the intermediate stops at travel plazas right off the interstate. Everybody drives everywhere anyway, so a stop by the highway might be just as convenient as having a stop in the downtowns, which slows the ride because the bus has to get off the highway and drive in local traffic at slow speeds with traffic lights in order to get to the downtown. 

By the way, the existing bus service takes 19 hours, going via Montgomery, Atlanta, and Savannah, requiring changes of bus. There's also another route that takes 18 hours that goes via Pensacola, Panama City, Tallahassee, Ocala, Orlando, and then back up to Jacksonville. Requires a bus change in Orlando. The ride from Mobile to Orlando is a single seat ride, but takes 12 hours.


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## Qapla

The Amtrak Thruway bus still goes through Gainesville and then Ocala - I see it sometimes. It apparently uses the Rosa Parks Transfer station - a large buss facility the city built for city busses that is also used by Red Coach and MegaBus. However, there is no longer an operating Greyhound station in Gainesville. The Greyhound busses still use the building for their depot instead of the one everyone else uses but the station is no longer manned.

It just seems odd that a city with one of the State's major universities has such little service and public transportation options.

There would have to be major track building for Amtrak to return to Gainesville with a train


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## jis

Just for reference the report on which Southern Rail Commission's activities are based is this one (large PDF):



http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf



It covers NOL - MOB - JAX - ORL, and does not appear to say anything about the Baton Rouge - NOL part of Southern Rail Commission's remit.


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## west point

Why go to JAX? Seems that it is not a great destination for passengers on the Gulf coast. It would be expensive but a divert at Lake City onto an abandonent route ( SOU RR ) to connect to CSX Wildwood track north of Waldo. How much time would that save? IMO this routing really serve central and Tampa south. There might a little effort to get to the west coast of Florida from St. Augustine to north of Palm Beach.


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## Qapla

The connect from Lake City to Waldo goes through Baldwin - that is only a few miles west of JAX and CSX does not want regular passenger service on the line from Baldwin through Waldo to Orlando.

When the Auto Train had that derailment a while back, they did divert through Waldo - but only for a couple days.

The only switch north of Waldo is in Starke and it is no aligned for a Waldo-Lake City route. It is more for a Baldwin-Newberry route with no connection between Lake City and Newberry ... from what I can tell - and I live near Waldo


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## jis

west point said:


> Why go to JAX? Seems that it is not a great destination for passengers on the Gulf coast. It would be expensive but a divert at Lake City onto an abandonent route ( SOU RR ) to connect to CSX Wildwood track north of Waldo. How much time would that save? IMO this routing really serve central and Tampa south. There might a little effort to get to the west coast of Florida from St. Augustine to north of Palm Beach.


Why would one want to work so hard to avoid serving the largest city in Florida? Why would one go to St. Augustine, when there is a fine track from JAX to Orlando and Tampa? Seriously, absolutely no one will contemplate spending money to restore the abandoned trackage on that ex-Southern RoW for one or two trains a day.


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## Qapla

As a follow-up to an earlier post


Qapla said:


> Ah! But that is not now, nor has it ever been an Amtrak depot. (Referring to this post Lesser known Railroad Museums in small towns )
> 
> That depot was built around 1860 to serve the Florida Railroad, which reached Gainesville from Fernandina in 1859. Depot operations were moved to a new building where East University Avenue crossed the rail line in January, 1948. That depot ceased operation as a train depot and in 1988, the City of Gainesville (who owned the depot) deeded the building to the Santa Fe College Endowment Corporation. The Old Train Depot on N.W. 6th Street is presently part of the downtown campus of Santa Fe College
> 
> There are no longer any tracks running to that location. Likewise, the depot in the picture above also does not have any tracks. The tracks from Waldo to Gainesville were removed and the eastbound lanes of Hwy 24 now occupy that space.
> 
> So, when it comes to restoring service from NO to JAX and beyond, Gainesville is out of the picture unless new tracks are built - however, the Waldo station is still standing with double tracks and a ground level platform - just closed and disused.



And, in keeping with the idea of restoring service, here is a look at the old Amtrak Depot in Gainesville:




If you see the "sidewalk" between the street and the building - that was where the track used to run

In these videos, the first one is the back of the old depot and the second is the front. You can see where the tracks ran in front of the depot by the "sidewalk" - it is harder to tell, but there also used to be track behind the old depot, also.


View attachment 20221214_114414.mp4

View attachment 20221214_114751.mp4



So, since all the tracks in all directions are gone - some of them converted to "rails-to-trails" - getting the ROW back would be extremely slim (impossible). If it were even possible to restore train service to Gainesville, new ROW would have to be obtained and a new depot built ... the NIMBY's would not want that.


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## George Harris

MARC Rider said:


> According to Google Maps, it's about 400 miles via I-10 and takes 5:34 in a car. So I would imagine 6-6 1/2 hours in a bus. I guess it could be speeded up if they had the intermediate stops at travel plazas right off the interstate. Everybody drives everywhere anyway, so a stop by the highway might be just as convenient as having a stop in the downtowns, which slows the ride because the bus has to get off the highway and drive in local traffic at slow speeds with traffic lights in order to get to the downtown.


400 miles in 5:34 = 71.9 mph. I don't think so. Google maps gives ridiculously short driving times. I would say 6.5 to 7 hours would probably be more like it in a car with no stops. Bus time would be longer.
As an experience, Google gives 6 hours 24 minutes for the 419 mile drive from our house to our daughter's house, that is Olive Branch MS to Pensacola FL. This works out to 65.5 mph. If I were to calculate driving speed limits and no less from end to end, I would get more time than that. Actual drive time the last time we did it was nearer 8 hours, not including stops and with near no traffic delays, and that was driving speed limit (maybe some more, but I take 5th Amendment) wherever practical.


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## DonNewcomb

Here's a newspaper article touching on Gulf Coast & NOLA-Fla service.


https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article270584112.html


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## joelkfla

DonNewcomb said:


> Here's a newspaper article touching on Gulf Coast & NOLA-Fla service.
> 
> 
> https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article270584112.html


Seems to me that the reporter does not understand the map.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> Seems to me that the reporter does not understand the map.


Lots of wishful thinking. There appears to be an attempt to create the impression that somehow because it is just "suspended service" it will be easier to restore it than "new service". Never mind that in the same map the NOL - MOB service is shown as a new service and we already know how extremely easy  it has been to restore that, what just like MOB - JAX was a "suspended service", which got transformed into "new service" leading to protracted bickering about it at the STB.


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## DonNewcomb

jis said:


> Lots of wishful thinking. There appears to be an attempt to create the impression that somehow because it is just "suspended service" it will be easier to restore it than "new service". Never mind that in the same map the NOL - MOB service is shown as a new service and we already know how extremely easy  it has been to restore that, what just like MOB - JAX was a "suspended service", which got transformed into "new service" leading to protracted bickering about it at the STB.


There is a lot of wishful thinking. Most likely route from Mobile to Jacksonville would be via NOLA, Atlanta & Savannah but the article did have some quotes regarding P'cola.


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## NativeSon5859

I could see Pensacola being added fairly easily.

The question would be what CSX would demand in terms of upgrades on the Mobile-Flomaton portion, which is a highly used segment.

Flomaton-Pensacola however never seemed to be all that busy back in the SL days. What is it like today? They would need to give Amtrak permission to use the yard in PNS for overnight storage.

Overall, an extension to PNS seems at least in the realm of possibility, as opposed to the full extension to JAX.


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## Anderson

jis said:


> Lots of wishful thinking. There appears to be an attempt to create the impression that somehow because it is just "suspended service" it will be easier to restore it than "new service". Never mind that in the same map the NOL - MOB service is shown as a new service and we already know how extremely easy  it has been to restore that, what just like MOB - JAX was a "suspended service", which got transformed into "new service" leading to protracted bickering about it at the STB.


To be fair, NOL-MOB _is _a new service. That being said, as far as I can tell, on the map if there's not a corridor in place (i.e. only LD trains), a route is treated as "new".

[What seems plausible is that CSX might opt to give the impression of being conciliatory at some point - but only towards a 3x/weekly train, not a daily one.]


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## AmtrakMaineiac

NativeSon5859 said:


> I could see Pensacola being added fairly easily.
> 
> The question would be what CSX would demand in terms of upgrades on the Mobile-Flomaton portion, which is a highly used segment.
> 
> Flomaton-Pensacola however never seemed to be all that busy back in the SL days. What is it like today? They would need to give Amtrak permission to use the yard in PNS for overnight storage.
> 
> Overall, an extension to PNS seems at least in the realm of possibility, as opposed to the full extension to JAX.


That route via Flomaton seems fairly roundabout - not that there is any alternative given the presence of Mobile Bay. But not competitive with a drive on I-10. It would be more justifiable if one then extended to Tallahassee and JAX.


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## jis

I think Pensacola is specifically mentioned as Pensacola is where CSX ends and the Short line begins on the route to JAX. The Short Line trackage will require some significant safety and track standard upgrade work apparently before any respectable schedule can be envisaged on it. And that is a whole different can of worms, different from the attempts to extract usurious usage tax (in a manner of speaking) by the Class Is like CSX.

The trackage that would require considerable public funding to bring upto snuff is between Pensacola and Baldwin. Between Baldwin and JAX is again CSX.


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## Anthony V

NativeSon5859 said:


> I thought some of you would like to see the new signs and platforms going up in Bay St. Louis, Gulfport, Biloxi, and Pascagoula. I took these pics today. Sone are completely finished, some are almost finished.
> 
> It’s very exciting for me personally to see the Amtrak logo proudly displayed once again after 17 years in these communities.
> 
> Pascagoula still has an old Amtrak sign circa 1993 but I’m sure that’ll be gone soon.


Are these steel platforms just temporary ones or are they the way Amtrak plans to bring the stations up to ADA compliance?


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## TWA904

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> That route via Flomaton seems fairly roundabout - not that there is any alternative given the presence of Mobile Bay. But not competitive with a drive on I-10. It would be more justifiable if one then extended to Tallahassee and JAX.


They build about 20 miles of new track from the CSX line north of Bay Minette over to the short line track that runs from Atmore to Pensacola. Then they would need to upgrade that short line track. You would lose Atmore as a stop but that would cut out that Flomaton round about.


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## DonNewcomb

TWA904 said:


> They build about 20 miles of new track from the CSX line north of Bay Minette over to the short line track that runs from Atmore to Pensacola. Then they would need to upgrade that short line track. You would lose Atmore as a stop but that would cut out that Flomaton round about.


While you're at it, build about 6 miles of track just north of I-10, connecting to the Escambia Bay bridge, move the P'cola station to the north part of town and suddenly the connection to Tallahassee and points east becomes possible.


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## danasgoodstuff

Was there never a more direct rail route between Mobile and Pensacola?


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## jiml

It doesn't appear so - at least going back to the '50s. There's the L&N route via Flomaton and no idea if it connected to the ex-Frisco at Atmore. I have to wonder if a natural obstacle, such as swampy ground or hurricane risk, prevented something more direct. It would seem on the surface that something running in the I-10 ROW would work, although that can be a mess after some of the bad storms they get. (I've spent too much time vacationing in NW Florida over the years.)


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## DonNewcomb

danasgoodstuff said:


> Was there never a more direct rail route between Mobile and Pensacola?


It wasn't until 1941 that the Bankhead Tunnel made direct road connection across the Mobile River and Bay a reality. RR connections require a much shallower grade and, because Mobile is a seaport, requires the RR bride be many miles upstream. Geologically, Mobile bay is a graben but this isn't the big issue. The fact is that Mobile was built in the most likely place for a bridge but you'd have to level half the city for the ramp.


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## DonNewcomb

jiml said:


> It doesn't appear so - at least going back to the '50s. There's the L&N route via Flomaton and no idea if it connected to the ex-Frisco at Atmore.


In the '50s when we'd take the train from P'cola to Chicago, 90% of the time we'd drive to Flomaton to catch the Humming Bird, rather than have to leave P'cola on the local at oh-dark-thirty. Yeah, connections to and from P'cola have always been bad.


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