# “What Would You Add?” Infrastructure Edition



## NSC1109 (Feb 17, 2019)

Okay, so we all have a route or two that we want Amtrak to bring back, whether it be the _Desert Wind _or the old _20th Century Limited. _But the reality is that with our nation’s railroads operating as private entities, Amtrak’s ability to expand current services, let alone start new ones, is incredibly limited and subject to many hoops.

The goal is this thread is to provide a place to compile the various ideas for infrastructure improvements across the Amtrak network, including stations, MoW, etc. I’ll stay in my Midwest stomping grounds to start:

The section of the NS Chicago Line between Porter and Chicago is one of the biggest causes of delays for Amtrak _Michigan Service_ trains traveling to and from Chicago. More often than not, trains are halted by a lift bridge in northwest Indiana for boat traffic. Project #1 would be to rebuild that portion of the line in a manner where it would be possible to run trains without the interference from barges. It would likely require a grade, but it would certainly be more efficient for both NS and Amtrak. Project #2 would be to allow Amtrak to rebuild the two main lines between NW Indiana and Chicago that would be exclusively used for passenger service. This would help to eliminate NS-caused delays on one of the most congested sections of track in the Midwest. 

Post yours below!


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## cpotisch (Feb 17, 2019)

Constant tension catenary between NYP and WAS would be great. With the current catenary setup there, trains can not exceed 135 mph.


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## F900ElCapitan (Feb 17, 2019)

First and foremost is the need to upgrade and expand the rolling stock!! Except for a few Viewliner sleepers and diners and Acela, there haven’t been any significant additions for a very long time. Then take into account all the equipement that has been lost through accidents and mishaps, and the current state is pathetic. So with virtually no stock to expand service with, there are very few infrastructure improvements that will produce true increased passengers numbers.


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## west point (Feb 18, 2019)

The obvious place would be for WASH - Richmond to become 4 tracks.  WASH - ALX has 25 AMTRAK passenger trains.      NS has  2-1/2   AMT RTs south  of ALX.  CSX south of ALX has 10 Amtrak round trips to Richmond including Auto train from Lorton..  There is no other track section with as many Amtrak trains as WASH - ALX - RVR.

Then we have weekday VRE trains from Manassas and Lorton  There are 8 RTs to from each of Manassas and Lorton.    Weekday totals

So totals   WASH - ALX    57 one way passenger trains  and an unknown number of CSX freights

                  ALX -    LOR     36 one way passenger trains   CSX freight  unknown

                  LOR - RVR       16  one way passenger trains  CSX unknown

                ALX - MAN       21 one way  passenger and NS 2 - 4?

Note:  1/2 train is Cardinal 3 times a week


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## Pere Flyer (Feb 18, 2019)

• Double track OKC-FTW for BNSF freight bypasses and capacity for added Heartland Flyer frequencies, to say nothing of new ROW to Stillwater/Tulsa.
• Bypass Ponder-Saginaw-Fort Worth Intermodal TC to avoid interference and slow speeds through BNSF yards in north Fort Worth.
• South. Of. The. Lake.
• MDOT purchase of the Pere Marquette Line—double tracking, straightening, speed improvements, and PTC (basically “the Michigan Line treatment”) to enable added Pere Marquette frequencies. 
• MDOT purchase/upgrade/construction of the line Grand Rapids-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Ypsilanti-Dearborn-Detroit for necessary service across the lower peninsula.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Feb 18, 2019)

Replacing any tunnels that are falling apart (yes, the ones into NYC for sure, but there must be others all across the country) before the water, mountains, or whatever else is on top of them crashes through while a train is in them.

Truly, I hold my breath any time I'm on a train that goes through an old tunnel.


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## sttom (Feb 18, 2019)

Second Transbay Tube and electrification in California. 

A bridge between San Rafael and Point Richmond.

Tehachapi and Pacheco Pass.


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## tim49424 (Feb 18, 2019)

Pere Flyer said:


> • MDOT purchase of the Pere Marquette Line—double tracking, straightening, speed improvements, and PTC (basically “the Michigan Line treatment”) to enable added Pere Marquette frequencies.
> • MDOT purchase/upgrade/construction of the line Grand Rapids-Lansing-Ann Arbor-Ypsilanti-Dearborn-Detroit for necessary service across the lower peninsula.


Agreed with most of this, but PTC has already been instituted on the Pere Marquette. That happened last October. I was actually talking about it with one of the conductors this morning.....a continuation of a discussion I had with him and another conductor a couple of days after activation.


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## daybeers (Feb 19, 2019)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Replacing any tunnels that are falling apart (yes, the ones into NYC for sure, but there must be others all across the country) before the water, mountains, or whatever else is on top of them crashes through while a train is in them.
> 
> Truly, I hold my breath any time I'm on a train that goes through an old tunnel.


Yes yes, and the bridges too! I'm biased to the NEC since I live close to it and it's far and above the corridor I'm most familiar with, but the Portal North Bridge, B&P Tunnel, Hudson Tunnel, Connecticut River Bridge, Susquehanna River Bridge all need to be addressed. I know the slowest sections from NYP to NHV and OSB can't be improved that much more than present due to ridiculously high land acquisition costs if another track was to be constructed, but Amtrak should work with Metro-North to get this very slow section improved.

Making the entire NEC South at least three tracks. There are a lot of bottlenecks in there.

Working with CT DOT to double-track the last 12 miles of single track on the New Haven–Springfield Line in order to increase frequencies on the Hartford Line. This is planned down the road, but the earlier the better. This project will actually be quite complicated due to the I-84 Hartford Project slated to start construction within the next two years or so, which will involve the relocation of Hartford Union Station and tracks through downtown Hartford.



west point said:


> The obvious place would be for WASH - Richmond to become 4 tracks.  WASH - ALX has 25 AMTRAK passenger trains.      NS has  2-1/2   AMT RTs south  of ALX.  CSX south of ALX has 10 Amtrak round trips to Richmond including Auto train from Lorton..  There is no other track section with as many Amtrak trains as WASH - ALX - RVR.


Yes, this is a very important project as well.


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## capltd29 (Feb 19, 2019)

Allow all of the trains that serve RVR to serve RVM. Create storage tracks at RVM for trains laying over and please make it take less than 30 mins to get between Richmond’s two stations.


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## LookingGlassTie (Feb 19, 2019)

I've touched on this before on some other threads, but I think that one area for improvement is in Augusta, GA.   Namely, upgrading the railroad infrastructure so that possibly either the Silver Star or Crescent (or both, depending on schedules) could be rerouted through that area.

Also, make it to where a train from either NFK or NPN could go directly to RNK.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 19, 2019)

While I think this benefits Metra more than Amtrak, rebuilding Chicago Union Station into a through station with appropriate concourses and improved connections to the L system.


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## west point (Feb 19, 2019)

Some one asked us about the single track at Hartford.  Could new ties, timbers, and rail be added to that section?  We wonder about the super structure and girders being able to carry 2 trains at once   ie   an Amtrak and freight on other track?


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## daybeers (Feb 19, 2019)

west point said:


> Some one asked us about the single track at Hartford.  Could new ties, timbers, and rail be added to that section?  We wonder about the super structure and girders being able to carry 2 trains at once   ie   an Amtrak and freight on other track?


I don't believe the viaduct is anywhere near strong enough to hold two trains at once. Besides, as I said above, it's not worth it, because there is a good 3.5-4 miles in downtown Hartford that is still single track.


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## neroden (Feb 20, 2019)

NSC1109 said:


> The section of the NS Chicago Line between Porter and Chicago is one of the biggest causes of delays for Amtrak _Michigan Service_ trains traveling to and from Chicago. More often than not, trains are halted by a lift bridge in northwest Indiana for boat traffic. Project #1 would be to rebuild that portion of the line in a manner where it would be possible to run trains without the interference from barges. It would likely require a grade, but it would certainly be more efficient for both NS and Amtrak. Project #2 would be to allow Amtrak to rebuild the two main lines between NW Indiana and Chicago that would be exclusively used for passenger service. This would help to eliminate NS-caused delays on one of the most congested sections of track in the Midwest.


This has been called "South of the Lake" or "Great Lakes Rail" and actually got to the point of a completed Draft EIS before being quietly and illegally put on the back burner by a Republican governor of Michigan and/or Trump cronies at the FRA (not clear which).

It is the #1 national priority,  IMO ahead of the bridges and tunnels on the NEC.  (New York has survived when everyone had to take the ferries across the Hudson.)

After that and the bridges/tunnels on the NEC, yes, Second Transbay Tube in SF (standard gauge).

Then the high-speed tunnel across Tehachapi from Bakersfield to LA.

Those are all big-ticket items. Some small ones:

(1) A switch at Pittsburgh to restore through service from Pennsylvania to Chicago.

(2) Passenger-only tracks on the Empire Corridor from Schenectady to Buffalo.


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## neroden (Feb 20, 2019)

In the Southeast, an Atlanta downtown station and connecting tracks are needed, like, a decade ago.  Sadlythere's no political will or funding from Atlanta, so no chance.


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## tim49424 (Feb 20, 2019)

neroden said:


> This has been called "South of the Lake" or "Great Lakes Rail" and actually got to the point of a completed Draft EIS before being quietly and illegally put on the back burner by a Republican governor of Michigan and/or Trump cronies at the FRA (not clear which).


With a Democratic governor in Michigan now, one may hope that changes.....unless it was the fault of the Trump cronies, then never mind.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 21, 2019)

tim49424 said:


> With a Democratic governor in Michigan now, one may hope that changes.....unless it was the fault of the Trump cronies, then never mind.




Illinois as well, but it sounds like he is being fairly stingy with money for the moment, at least with infrastructure.


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## tim49424 (Feb 21, 2019)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Illinois as well, but it sounds like he is being fairly stingy with money for the moment, at least with infrastructure.


Too early to tell with Governor Whitmer. She’s been in office less than two months.


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## neroden (Feb 22, 2019)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Illinois as well, but it sounds like he is being fairly stingy with money for the moment, at least with infrastructure.


Illinois needs to get the Quad Cities route running.


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## neroden (Feb 22, 2019)

Other infrastructure.

Hialeah is a terrible location.  I'd build a new central maintenance shop for Viewliners, Amfleet IIs, etc. much further north and higher in elevation. 

Several parts of the NEC need to be raised and relocated to avoid flooding caused by global warming.

The San Diego-LA line still has sections which need to be raised and moved back from the cliff edge.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 23, 2019)

neroden said:


> Illinois needs to get the Quad Cities route running.


Hopefully once JB gets up to speed, money for that will be released along with Metra getting some much (much much much) needed infusions of funding.


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## neroden (Feb 24, 2019)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Hopefully once JB gets up to speed, money for that will be released along with Metra getting some much (much much much) needed infusions of funding.


Can't hurt to write a letter to him ASAP, get him on the "right page".


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 24, 2019)

neroden said:


> Can't hurt to write a letter to him ASAP, get him on the "right page".


Not until after the election. Like most Chicagoan's I'm sick of election ads and hearing about Aldermen, Mayoral forums, etc...


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## neroden (Feb 24, 2019)

Oh, I didn't realize you had "off-schedule" city elections.  Feb 26th -- how weird.

We just normalized all our elections in New York, synchronized the dates.

Pritzker's already in office of course... probably the letter should have been written and sent *before* he released the budget on Feb 20th.  :-(


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 27, 2019)

Hey, they aren't off schedule, well, but about six weeks. But at the risk of getting this further off the rails than it already is... Chicago has always elected our mayors in the spring - since the 1850's. The State is the one who forced the "primary" to be in February. We're having massive run offs on April 2nd since no one candidate got 50%+ of the vote (17% was the highest out of 14 candidates) and I think about a third of the wards have run offs for Aldermanic races as well.


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## LookingGlassTie (Mar 2, 2019)

Another thing I thought of, and it kinda ties into my above post:

If a Northeast Regional ever were to run between NFK and RNK, set the schedule so that it stops at LYH to connect with the Crescent.   That would be a second way for people in the Tidewater area to take the Crescent without having to go all the way to WAS.    

Now that I mention it, I remembered that a NER train runs between LYH and RNK.   So, I suppose a Regional could run between NFK and LYH, and could serve a dual purpose; to allow a connection to the Crescent or for passengers to continue on a NER to RNK.


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## neroden (Mar 18, 2019)

Oh, in the department of infrastructure: I'd add a curve and a revised platform at Charlottesville so that the Cardinal could take the same route as the Crescent north of there -- the Crescent route is substantially faster.


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## NSC1109 (Mar 19, 2019)

Added tracks/platforms at CUS. 






If expanded service out of Chicago is going to be a thing, then Amtrak has to increase available capacity to support it. Potentially, you could put all the LD trains onto the through tracks and use the extra space on the stubs for increased corridor service. I created an Excel table that organizes both LD and Corridor by arrival and departure times...I think it could work. Unfortunately I can't find a way to upload it to the site.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Mar 20, 2019)

If you are going to rebuild Union Station on that scale, make it a through station on all tracks which benefits Amtrak and Metra (Metra more of course).


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## neroden (Mar 21, 2019)

The current plan is to convert the former mail platforms to HIGH LEVEL passenger platforms (since they are already high-level platforms) and run *single-level* trains to those platforms. So it would start with the Lake Shore Limited and whichever corridor trains are using single-level equipment. It also solves a bunch of ADA problems.

Metra's mostly running low-boarding-only bilevels (except on Metra Electric) so it would stay on the existing tracks, unless it got bilevels with traps.

There are two low-level platforms on the through tracks (though one requires crossing a track at grade) so Metra could still run some through trains.

The picture you posted is from Midwest HSR Association, which has a really excellent plan to convert the "St. Charles Air Line" to allow trains to run through from Metra Electric into the through tracks at Union Station, and onward onto the Milwaukee District West lines. Unfortunately it hasn't got much traction. It requires a flying curve off the "air line" down into Union Station, which is the single biggest piece of construction, plus a flyover of the Rock Island Line.


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## piedpiper (Mar 21, 2019)

NSC1109 said:


> Okay, so we all have a route or two that we want Amtrak to bring back, whether it be the _Desert Wind _or the old _20th Century Limited. _But the reality is that with our nation’s railroads operating as private entities, Amtrak’s ability to expand current services, let alone start new ones, is incredibly limited and subject to many hoops.
> 
> The goal is this thread is to provide a place to compile the various ideas for infrastructure improvements across the Amtrak network, including stations, MoW, etc. I’ll stay in my Midwest stomping grounds to start:
> 
> ...


I agree - the Desert Wind and the Pioneer both out of Salty would be a nice add to connect the west again.


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## west point (Mar 23, 2019)

The last time in CUS watched a carman try to work on a Superliner top, Was difficult as there appeared to be only 6 " clearance. So how is METRA electric going to string CAT there?


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## neroden (Mar 23, 2019)

west point said:


> The last time in CUS watched a carman try to work on a Superliner top, Was difficult as there appeared to be only 6 " clearance. So how is METRA electric going to string CAT there?



Clearance varies according to track. The through tracks are on the far east edge next to the river, and it's possible to get the clearance there. (You might have to use solid overhead contact bars like the Swiss use in some tunnels rather than hanging catenary wire, but that's fine.)

It's SUPER cramped on the west side.


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## IndyLions (Mar 24, 2019)

1. I would absolutely move all Detroit Amtrak trains to Michigan Central Station back as an active Amtrak station as soon as it is rehabbed by Ford.

2. I would completely gut & rework the entire train / bus passenger area at Indianapolis Union Station. Great city, gorgeous old main building, abomination of a passenger waiting area.

3. I would start a campaign with small municipalities to replace every Amshack currently in service with a small but functional train station manned by caretakers. Best example I’ve seen is Waterloo IN, although theirs was a “move & preserve” station effort, not building new.


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## sttom (Apr 7, 2019)

Another thing I would add in California is a rail connection to Oakland and San Francisco Airports. Although we wouldn't have train services that could cover those runs though. 

A more likely one is reopening the NCRA as far north Willits. And think about a rail bridge between San Rafael and Richmond. 

But both of these require us to have more train services. For both Amtrak and maybe a region wide Cal Train.


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