# ACS-64 and VL II's... Status?



## Acela150 (Jan 5, 2013)

Our latest report was that shell's for the ACS-64 were arriving in November. With Delivery starting in the summer. Any hints on what the status is on the II's and the ACS-64's? One can guess an ACS will head to Pueblo for testing, and the same with the II's and then head to the NEC for speed testing?


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## afigg (Jan 5, 2013)

Trains Magazine had a brief news update on the Siemens ACS-64 order as part of a story on Siemens delivering Vectron electric locomotives to Poland for freight service several weeks go, but the article is behind a subscriber wall. To summarize, the first unit is largely assembled at the Siemens plant in Sacramento, the body shells for the first 10 units were completed in Munich, Germany and have been shipped along with truck frames to the US. The first ACS-64 is scheduled for completion in mid-2013. That suggests it would go off for testing in Colorado by end of summer or in the fall? Maybe followed by testing on the NEC later in 2013?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm really hoping the Viewliner IIs get here quick. They may not enter service before the summer season but they would help at Thanksgiving.


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## AlanB (Jan 6, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I'm really hoping the Viewliner IIs get here quick. They may not enter service before the summer season but they would help at Thanksgiving.


Even if CAF starts to deliver Viewliner II's within the next 3 months at best there might be 5 or 6 cars actually in service by Thanksgiving. I'd say we'd be very lucky to have even one sleeper delivered and in service for Thanksgiving. And if they deliver all baggage cars, that will be of no help at all for Thanksgiving.

And I don't think that they will be delivering the first car within the next 3 months. I'm guessing, but based upon the original time line, coupled with the delays, I'd say we'll be lucky if the first car is delivered and in testing by the end of the summer. That would mean at best there might be 1 or 2 cars in service by Thanksgiving.

Plus all of the above assumes that no problems are found during testing.


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## Nathanael (Jan 6, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > I'm really hoping the Viewliner IIs get here quick. They may not enter service before the summer season but they would help at Thanksgiving.
> ...


The one thing which has been confirmed about the Viewliner IIs is that the first car delivered will be a diner.



> And I don't think that they will be delivering the first car within the next 3 months. I'm guessing, but based upon the original time line, coupled with the delays, I'd say we'll be lucky if the first car is delivered and in testing by the end of the summer.


Original timeline was for February delivery IIRC, so with the known delay of roughly 6 months, August delivery would be likely?



> That would mean at best there might be 1 or 2 cars in service by Thanksgiving.


I'm not sure about that. The first cars will undergo a lot of testing, but the later ones will undergo less testing. Thanks to the nature of an assembly line, they'll start coming off the line quite fast -- there could be as many as 10. I'm going to guess there will be nothing but diners by Thanksgiving, though. That *would* help Amtrak deal with the ever-increasing unreliability of the Heritage Diners, but it wouldn't add revenue seating.



> Plus all of the above assumes that no problems are found during testing.


Indeed. :-(


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## AlanB (Jan 6, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > That would mean at best there might be 1 or 2 cars in service by Thanksgiving.
> ...


If I recall the original contract, CAF was supposed to deliver 1 to 2 car per month in the beginning. Assume one comes off in August, 2 in Sept, 2 in Oct, and 2 in early November and that would only get us to 7. And I think that schedule isn't realistic at all. It's unlikely that both cars would be delivered and in service by Thanksgiving. And I'm not sure that they will manage to turn out that many in September & October.


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## afigg (Jan 6, 2013)

AlanB said:


> If I recall the original contract, CAF was supposed to deliver 1 to 2 car per month in the beginning. Assume one comes off in August, 2 in Sept, 2 in Oct, and 2 in early November and that would only get us to 7. And I think that schedule isn't realistic at all. It's unlikely that both cars would be delivered and in service by Thanksgiving. And I'm not sure that they will manage to turn out that many in September & October.


The 5 year financial plan, dated January 2012, Rolling Stock Counts and Availability table showed 25 new Viewliners (called LDSL for Long Distance Single Distance) projected to be in service by the end of FY2013, the remaining 105 in service by the end of FY2014. So that was the original delivery and deployment schedule.

The proposed FY2013 budget, released in February 2012, shows the same projection of 25 new cars in service by the end of FY2013. Amtrak has not posted a revised FY2013 budget which might show the revised in service projection by the end of FY13, although they must have an internal budget to work against. With the continuing resolution providing funding through end of March and the uncertainty over the threat of sequestratiion, there might not be a final Amtrak FY13 budget until 7-8 months into the FY. :blink:


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## PRR 60 (Jan 6, 2013)

Financially, I believe Amtrak wants to push the delivery of as many production cars as possible into FY14. Cash flow is a major issue with this order. Amtrak had hoped to get a special appropriation for the purchase. They did not. The cars are being funded from the capital budget and competing with other projects for funds, with some of those projects mandatory.

Expect prototype cars to be delivered for testing sometime this year. Then everything stops while testing takes place. Once testing is complete and any modifications are identified and delivered to CAF for adoption (with the requisite price negotiations), actual production can resume. You don't want to have multiple cars virtually compete only to find out that you have to tear them apart to make some change. Amtrak _may_ use that process to help the cash flow issue.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 6, 2013)

Related to this, does anyone else find it interesting that the Amtrak Monthly Performance Reports does not have some tracking for the production of either the electric motors or the new cars? Given the dollars involved, wouldn't progress reports for these orders be something that should be in these documents?


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## Nathanael (Jan 8, 2013)

The funding for the Viewliners was actually being funded from *operating* surpluses -- which have continued; Amtrak got more operating funding than needed in FY 2011 and FY 2012 and was set to have that happen again in FY 2013 even *with* the "sequester".

However, Hurricane Sandy may have hurt the operating surplus for FY 2013. A proper Hurricane Sandy relief bill should be Amtrak's top priority. And no, Congress hasn't passed a Hurricane Sandy relief bill yet. All they passed this week was funding to pay out *already-owed flood insurance claims*. Which IMHO should not even have been necessary; there should be unlimited appropriations to pay out guaranteed insurance claims. Seriously.


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## afigg (Jan 10, 2013)

Well, we now have an official update as to when the new cars are expected to show up from CAF. The schedule has slipped - by a lot. Amtrak put out a news release previewing the 2013 major projects and had this to say on the CAF order:



> *130 NEW SINGLE-LEVEL LONG-DISTANCE CARS *The design and build out for the $298.1 million order for 130 new single-level long-distance cars, including sleepers (25), diners (25), baggage cars (55) and baggage/dormitory cars (25) continues to progress. The delivery of the first four of the eight test pilot cars are due late in 2013 with the first units expected to be placed into service late spring 2014. They will replace and supplement the existing fleet, improve financial and on-time performance, and allow Amtrak to retire the oldest cars still in service that date back to the 1940s. They are being built by CAF USA at a facility in Elmira, N.Y.


The first ACS-64 unit will be delivered during 2013.


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## RailRide (Jan 10, 2013)

There is a photo of an ACS-64 shell on the MSN article about Amtrak's losses being the lowest since 1975: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50421466

The main article is being discussed on AU at this thread

---PCJ


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## shinkansen (Jan 10, 2013)

Quite looking forward to seeing the new motive power. Maybe a few folks down in operations and mnt will stop yammering on about pulling knuckles. (Looking right at the HHP's)


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## Acela150 (Jan 10, 2013)

They better put something on the side of them shells.. If not I'll being calling it a "ghost train" then I'll be wondering where it's at the whole time.


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## afigg (Jan 11, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> They better put something on the side of them shells.. If not I'll being calling it a "ghost train" then I'll be wondering where it's at the whole time.


Well, there will be locomotive numbers added. With so much flat side space to work with, they could put www.amtrak.com on the side as well to plug the website. Then add a large LCD display for a little advertising revenue and loops of those security safety videos they show at the stations. 

If the first ACS-64 unit is delivered in mid 2013, it is possible the that ACS-64s will beat the first of the CAF Viewliners to entry into revenue service.


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## cirdan (Jan 11, 2013)

afigg said:


> Well, there will be locomotive numbers added. With so much flat side space to work with, they could put www.amtrak.com on the side as well to plug the website. Then add a large LCD display for a little advertising revenue and loops of those security safety videos they show at the stations.


They could do like NS and paint one in Tuscan Red.


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## OBS (Jan 11, 2013)

afigg said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > They better put something on the side of them shells.. If not I'll being calling it a "ghost train" then I'll be wondering where it's at the whole time.
> ...


That would be great if the engines beat the new viewliners into service! The reliability of the electrics has been suffering greatly as of late.


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## Ryan (Jan 11, 2013)

That would be utterly fantastic.


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## Notelvis (Jan 11, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> They better put something on the side of them shells.. If not I'll being calling it a "ghost train" then I'll be wondering where it's at the whole time.


Then you'll be like Julie -

"Hold on, I'll try and find your train!"


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## sitzplatz17 (Jan 11, 2013)

Honestly, it wouldn't be too surprising to see the ACS-64s enter service before the VLIIs.

Considering the VLs are a very Amtrak specific order it seem more can go wrong and hence why the schedule is slipping.

THe ACS-64s on the other hand are based on a very sucessful european platform that's been around for a good bit if I'm not mistaken...?


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## shinkansen (Jan 17, 2013)

*AMTRAK TO RECEIVE FIRST FOUR TEST PILOT SINGLE-LEVEL PASSENGER CARS THIS YEAR*: This year, Amtrak will receive the first four test pilot cars of its $298.1-million order for 130 new, American-made single-level long-distance cars. That includes 25 sleepers, 25 diners, 55 baggage cars, and 25 baggage/dormitory cars. The railcars will go into service late spring 2014, replacing and supplementing the existing fleet, allowing Amtrak to retire cars that have been in service since the 1940s._ [National Assn. of R.R. Passengers, 1-11-13]_


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## Acela150 (Jan 17, 2013)

Can we have a link please?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jan 17, 2013)

I personally don't care much for the ACS-64 since I am far from the NEC, but I'm really hoping to see more Viewliners around. Looks like I'm waiting till 2014.


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## afigg (Jan 17, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Can we have a link please?


The information on the status of the CAF cars is lifted right from the Amtrak 2013 preview news release issued last week.It will be spring of 2014 before the first batch of CAF Viewliners IIs (if that is what they will be called) go into revenue service, and that is if no additional problems are found that cause the in revenue service schedule to slip again.
Edit: fixed year


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## Acela150 (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks for that afigg. Looks like they have a steady line of VL II's going in Elmira in the photo of the BagDorm.


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## jmx53 (Mar 7, 2013)

This was posted on TO: ACS-64 photo


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## sitzplatz17 (Mar 7, 2013)

jmx53 said:


> This was posted on TO: ACS-64 photo


Nice, thats a pretty cool looking loco.


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## Woody (Mar 7, 2013)

Sorry. I don't have the hang of it for replying, much less for editing quoted Comments.

Let me see if my cut-and-paste skills are adequate:

To aflgg: Thanks for the link. I had read it before but .... Somehow I not paid ANY attention

to the photos at the bottom of the Attachment. Good pix, needed better captions.


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## Acela150 (Mar 7, 2013)

Looks like crap IMO..


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## Blackwolf (Mar 7, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Looks like crap IMO..


Looks generations better than the Meatballs. By far, the UGLIEST locomotives ever placed on Amtrak's roster. Then again, as long as they run like a Singer sewing machine and do their duty with faith and little fuss, who cares what they look like?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 7, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like crap IMO..
> ...


What's a meatball?


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## Nathanael (Mar 7, 2013)

Looking at this photo, I *still* can't tell how many roomettes the bag/dorm cars are going to have. It's not clear to me where the baggage door goes and it's not clear to me where the shower and bathroom go. I've been trying to figure this out because I'm trying to figure out how many extra roomettes are likely to be added to various trains when these enter service.

The ACS electric locomotives look nice to me. Bad side visibility; that's probably due to the FRA "corner post" requirements, though.


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## Acela150 (Mar 7, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Blackwolf said:
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> 
> > Acela150 said:
> ...


AEM-7 nickname, along with toasters.


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## Acela150 (Mar 7, 2013)

If you zoom in on the photo you can note that the loco number shown is 600. It's on the 8.5 x 11 piece of paper.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 7, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Blackwolf said:
> ...


Dude, the AEM-7 looks wayyy better than an ACS-64!


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## rickycourtney (Mar 7, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> Looking at this photo, I *still* can't tell how many roomettes the bag/dorm cars are going to have. It's not clear to me where the baggage door goes and it's not clear to me where the shower and bathroom go. I've been trying to figure this out because I'm trying to figure out how many extra roomettes are likely to be added to various trains when these enter service.


From the photo there appears to be a baggage door on the far end of the car (away from the camera.) There are also four sets of windows on that side along with the opening to insert the prefab rooms. Depending on if there is a roomette behind that opening or not... there could be 8 or 10 roomettes in these baggage/dorm cars.


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## Acela150 (Mar 7, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


Just as long as it works and I can take photos of it. I really don't care what it looks like. My opinion is it look like crap. If it functions like an Electric Unit and Runs well. I won't give a hoot about the look. All I care is it works.


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## battalion51 (Mar 7, 2013)

The interesting item with the numbering in the 6xx series is what happens to the HHP-8s while the ACS is being rolled out. IIRC the HHPs are the last ones that will be taken offline, and even then it seems like there was a plan to keep some of them around for work trains and the like (even though the AEM-7s are probably more suited for that service). So what will the new numbers be for the HHP-8s in that interim, guess we'll have to see...


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## Acela150 (Mar 7, 2013)

It's possible they would leave it the same. But I don't see that happening. It'd be interesting to see the renumbering. I guess that Amtrak would put them in the 300 or 400 Series. Just a guess.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 7, 2013)

battalion51 said:


> The interesting item with the numbering in the 6xx series is what happens to the HHP-8s while the ACS is being rolled out. IIRC the HHPs are the last ones that will be taken offline, and even then it seems like there was a plan to keep some of them around for work trains and the like (even though the AEM-7s are probably more suited for that service). So what will the new numbers be for the HHP-8s in that interim, guess we'll have to see...


The HHP-8 is not that old. Amtrak should not retire them yet.


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## AlanB (Mar 7, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > The interesting item with the numbering in the 6xx series is what happens to the HHP-8s while the ACS is being rolled out. IIRC the HHPs are the last ones that will be taken offline, and even then it seems like there was a plan to keep some of them around for work trains and the like (even though the AEM-7s are probably more suited for that service). So what will the new numbers be for the HHP-8s in that interim, guess we'll have to see...
> ...


Well the oldest is already 15 years old and it will be approching 20 by the time all of thE new engines are delivered. And with all the problems that Amtrak has with the HHP engines, I agree that they won't last long. Besides Amtrak has more or less confirmed that they don't plan to hang on to the HHP's for very long.


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## AlanB (Mar 7, 2013)

rickycourtney said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at this photo, I *still* can't tell how many roomettes the bag/dorm cars are going to have. It's not clear to me where the baggage door goes and it's not clear to me where the shower and bathroom go. I've been trying to figure this out because I'm trying to figure out how many extra roomettes are likely to be added to various trains when these enter service.
> ...


The bag/dorms will have 9 roomettes. If one is standing in the vestibule or "B" end of the car looking towards the baggage area, the odd numbered rooms 1-9 would be on the left starting just inside the door. The even numbered rooms 2-8 would be on the right with room #2 opposite #3. The shower is next to room 9, while the bathrooms are next to room 8. After opening the internal door between the crew area and the bag area, there will be two luggage modules on each side, followed by baggage loading doors on each side, followed by two more luggage modules on each side.


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## Acela150 (Mar 7, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> > The interesting item with the numbering in the 6xx series is what happens to the HHP-8s while the ACS is being rolled out. IIRC the HHPs are the last ones that will be taken offline, and even then it seems like there was a plan to keep some of them around for work trains and the like (even though the AEM-7s are probably more suited for that service). So what will the new numbers be for the HHP-8s in that interim, guess we'll have to see...
> ...


In the 15 years or so that the HHP has been in service it has been a troublesome locomotive. I was on 163 once and a HHP was leading. We were in the East River Tunnels about half a mile away from NYP the Pantograph stopped collecting electricity from the Caternary. It took 10 minutes for the problem to be solved. The train lost 20 minutes because of that. I enjoy the ride behind a HHP, I think it's a very aerodynamic unit and picks up speed quick. But I believe Jis pointed this issue out and I agree with this. Is that the HHP sways a ton when it's going full speed, same with AE sets, but the AEM-7's have a very steady ride.

The AE video is at 150MPH and you can notice the sway in the beginning and end of the video.

In the videos below it shows the sway of the HHP's, AE's, and AEM-7's.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oOzFRiJ3TU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da5Q_v5zYy4


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 7, 2013)

I guess the HHP-8 is the G4500 of Amtrak. It looks cool but runs poorly.


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## Heading North (Mar 7, 2013)

The baggage-dorms make me wonder: with 9 rooms, what happens on a train where not all crew rooms are filled? (Thinking about you, Cardinal.) I get the purpose of separating the crew (and frankly they deserve it, and it's better for them!), but could they be used for passengers? Similarly, on a train like 66/67, the Boston Lake Shore, or an extended Pennsylvanian, again without much of an overnight crew, could one of these cars function as a sleeper in a pinch? On 66/67 for example, I can't really see someone demanding a bedroom for a short trip. Then again, presumably there's no ADA capability so there may need to be a full sleeper in the consist as well. (Or as another possibility, could these accompany a Transition Sleeper, making the transition car all-revenue or close to it?) Just thinking out loud about how to make more rooms available, since Amtrak really should be trying to maximize sleeper space (and revenue) and I know it will never have as many sleeping cars to match demand, especially in the east.


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## afigg (Mar 8, 2013)

Heading North said:


> The baggage-dorms make me wonder: with 9 rooms, what happens on a train where not all crew rooms are filled? (Thinking about you, Cardinal.) I get the purpose of separating the crew (and frankly they deserve it, and it's better for them!), but could they be used for passengers? Similarly, on a train like 66/67, the Boston Lake Shore, or an extended Pennsylvanian, again without much of an overnight crew, could one of these cars function as a sleeper in a pinch? On 66/67 for example, I can't really see someone demanding a bedroom for a short trip. Then again, presumably there's no ADA capability so there may need to be a full sleeper in the consist as well.


Alternate uses for the baggage-dorms have been discussed here many times. Remember the order is for 25 bag-dorms and 25 diner cars, suggesting they generally one of each will be used on a single level LD train. If a baggage-dorm has 1 or 2 roomettes open, probably too much trouble to use it as an revenue room. The crew likely prefers to have their own space and the LSA would have to service it from the adjacent car.
Using a baggage-dorm as the only sleeper car would present ADA compliance issues. Also, a LSA who supports only 8 other roomettes is a poor use of manpower.

As for the Cardinal, the plan reportedly is for it to get 2 sleeper cars and a baggage-dorm which suggests that it would get a full service diner as well.


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2013)

Heading North,

I've heard of no such plans to split the car into potential revenue rooms vs. crew rooms. And it would be pretty hard to do it. On the Superliners there is a clear dividing line between crew and pax at he stairs.

On most trains save the Cardinal, there will only be one or two unused rooms anyhow, so it's not even worth the effort to try & split things. On the LSL I'm not sure if both legs will actually get a bag/dorm. It is possible that only the NYP section will get the combo car, while the Boston section gets a standard bag.

As for 66/67, that's an unusual situation as that trains requires no crew rooms anyhow. So it is possible that Amtrak could save two full sleepers for the LD's by using a bag/dorm as a revenue car & selling 8 rooms. The stumbling block could however well be ADA requirements as there would be no ADA room on the train.

Finally, there really aren't enough of the combo cars to equip the bi-level trains with them. However the orignal plans were to have no full bags at all and build all of the cars as bag/dorms. Along with that Amtrak would have converted the existing Superliner Trans/Dorms into full revenue sleepers. That idea died at least in part due to costs. A full bag costs far less to build than a combo bag/dorm car which requires water, toilets, AC, & heat, along with the actual rooms. And then there would have been the extra costs to convert the Trans/Dorm cars.


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## rickycourtney (Mar 8, 2013)

I think it's highly unlikely that Amtrak will sell any of the room in the baggage/dorm cars. They will likely use the rest of the roomettes for "Business Travel" (employees traveling on official company business or just riding on their pass.)


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## cirdan (Mar 8, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I guess the HHP-8 is the G4500 of Amtrak. It looks cool but runs poorly.


I don't actually even think it looks that cool. It's way too plasticky for my taste.


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## battalion51 (Mar 8, 2013)

The one thing that most people forget about is the Conductor/AC on the long haul trains. Most crews usually split the train in half, one guy works the sleepers/bags and one guy works the coaches. So it really is ideal for the guy who is working the sleepers/bags to be able to setup shop on that end of the train. If there is a room open that can quickly become his "office" so that he's just a few steps away from the baggage car.

Also, I don't foresee the bag/dorm taking the place of too many full baggage cars. Instead I think the idea is that they will supplement space on most routes where space can be tight. So for example on the Meteor going north you could put all of your New York and Washington bags in the dorm and then put everything else in the main baggage car. The only train I can really envision the full baggage car going away on is the New York side of the LSL. Since the vast majority of the OBS is headed to NYP you send the dorm that way and put any NYP bound bags there. The Boston side keeps the full baggage car and you work it that way. That's just my crazy thought though, we'll see how things actually pan out once they start rolling off the line...


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2013)

AlanB said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> > Nathanael said:
> ...


OK. Thank you very much. So we have a pair of windows and a roomette in the "plug" for inserting units, and the bathroom and shower on the "far side" of the plug. Tell me if I have this picture right.

v=vestibule

r=restroom

s=shower

b=baggage

d=baggage door

p = "plug"

p

v 1 3 5 7 9 s | b b d b b

v ? 2 4 6 8 r | b b d b b

Two questions:

(1) What's opposite room #1?

(2) This really doesn't sound like much luggage space; less than half the length of the car. This raises questions of usage.

For example, the bag-dorm won't be able to substitute for a full baggage car on the NY section of the LSL (during the summer, it would fill up just with the baggage destined for Syracuse alone). Will it, perhaps, be used *in addition* to a full baggage car? Similar questions arise on the Silver Meteor, which has high baggage loadings in the summer.

The general assumption -- due to high demand and high prices -- has been that the LSL will get an additional full sleeper as well as a bag-dorm. Adding this to the existing consist -- without removing any baggage cars! -- you could end up with an *extremely* long train, 15 cars plus power. At that point it will be making double stops at pretty much every single intermediate station; perhaps even Albany!


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## Nathanael (Mar 8, 2013)

It was made clear in the earlier versions of Amtrak's Fleet Strategy Plan that Amtrak fully intends to sell excess space in the bag-dorms to revenue passengers.

I constructed a spreadsheet based on the best information I had. I took Amtrak's coach attendant allocations from its manual. I guessed 5 crew in the diner and 1 in the cafe/lounge (from observation). I guessed 4 for the diner/lounge on the Cardinal, though that was a wild-ass guess.

The excess space is going to be at most 1 room in most cases; perhaps 2 occasionally, possibly as many as 3 on the Cardinal. Unless the LSL gets two Bag-Dorms, there's never going to be more "excess rooms" than that on any train. This small a number of rooms can be handled by the sleeper attendant for the adjoining car, as it already is when selling Trans-Dorm rooms on Superliners.

I doubt that Amtrak is going to allow $400+ roomette spaces (Lake Shore Limited prices...) to be used as offices for the Conductor (who has no office now), and they're certainly not going to leave them completely empty.


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## Nathanael (Mar 8, 2013)

FWIW, with the new Viewliners having one fewer revenue roomette than the old Viewliners, servicing one extra roomette in the dorm car... is actually servicing the same number of rooms as the sleeper attendant services now.


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## battalion51 (Mar 8, 2013)

Nathanael, you're just a bit off in you're estimate. A typical east coast crew has:


Lounge LSA
Diner LSA
Diner Waiter
Diner Waiter (sometimes)
Chef
Food Specialist
Coach Attendant
Coach Attendant
So that leaves one room (two max) open. Doesn't really seem like it'd be worth the effort to put one revenue passenger in there, especially when there could be additional crew members due to training or heavy loads. That extra room will probably be a Conductor Office most of the time...


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 8, 2013)

cirdan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the HHP-8 is the G4500 of Amtrak. It looks cool but runs poorly.
> ...


The G4500 is plasticky too, so I know what you mean.


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2013)

battalion51 said:


> Also, I don't foresee the bag/dorm taking the place of too many full baggage cars. Instead I think the idea is that they will supplement space on most routes where space can be tight. So for example on the Meteor going north you could put all of your New York and Washington bags in the dorm and then put everything else in the main baggage car. The only train I can really envision the full baggage car going away on is the New York side of the LSL. Since the vast majority of the OBS is headed to NYP you send the dorm that way and put any NYP bound bags there. The Boston side keeps the full baggage car and you work it that way. That's just my crazy thought though, we'll see how things actually pan out once they start rolling off the line...


I foresee the bag dorms replacing the existing full bags on all single level routes, save the bag going to Boston. Amtrak has no choice, they simply don't have enough bags & bag/dorms to get the job done. Already there are nights where 66/67 runs without a bag because Amtrak doesn't have a spare bag left to press into service. Currently OTOL lists 64 active bags in the fleet.

Amtrak plans to retire all of those current bags.

Amtrak ordered 80 new bags, 25 of which are bag/dorms. That's only 16 more cars; most of which Amtrak wants to use to have more spares and maybe add baggage to a few routes. If they place a full bag and a bag/dorm on the Silvers, that eats up 8 bags out of that 16 extra just to equip that route with 2 bags per train. Do the same with the Crescent and now you're down to just 4 extra spare cars.

I don't see that happening.

Right or wrong, the idea was that the shelving units will allow these new cars to carry more baggage compared to the existing cars, where the conductors just make big piles on the floor, but lose most of the vertical space since you can't pile the luggage very high. And Amtrak based its calculations on that idea, that this bag/dorm can fulfill the role of a full bag on the Silvers, Crescent, and Cardinal. I'm not sure if the LSL will get 2 bag/dorms, or 1 full bag to/from Boston and a Bag/Dorm to NYP.


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2013)

Guest said:


> OK. Thank you very much. So we have a pair of windows and a roomette in the "plug" for inserting units, and the bathroom and shower on the "far side" of the plug. Tell me if I have this picture right.
> v=vestibule
> 
> r=restroom
> ...


More like this:

P ^ ^
V 1 3 5 7 9 C S | B B D D B B
^ ^ End door
V E 2 4 6 8 R R | B B D D B B
Where building on your definition list:

E = electrical box/room

And ^ indicates that both exist within the space taken by 1 module. So for example, there are two restrooms within the space that would normally be taken by one roomette.

Finally, the LSL will have no choice but to make things work on the LSL and other trains. Please see my other post above to Battalion51 regarding the number of cars and the idea on those luggage shelving modules.



Guest said:


> The general assumption -- due to high demand and high prices -- has been that the LSL will get an additional full sleeper as well as a bag-dorm. Adding this to the existing consist -- without removing any baggage cars! -- you could end up with an *extremely* long train, 15 cars plus power. At that point it will be making double stops at pretty much every single intermediate station; perhaps even Albany!


I'm not at all sure about the LSL getting another sleeper. Far more likely that the Star gets an extra sleeper, or perhaps they'll go back to a seasonal rotation of the extra sleeper between the Star & the LSL. Card might get one. Pennsy is supposed to get one. And 66/67 is supposed to get one. That plus more spares pretty much maxes things out.


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## Acela150 (Mar 8, 2013)

If 66/67 gets a sleeper will it keep the BC/Cafe car?


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> If 66/67 gets a sleeper will it keep the BC/Cafe car?


It had that car before it lost the sleeper, so I'm not sure why they'd take it away if they put a sleeper back.


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## SubwayNut (Mar 9, 2013)

Is the plan for the baggage car to still have a bike rack as well?

I know that was in one of the early proposals.


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## Nathanael (Mar 9, 2013)

Thanks for the details.



AlanB said:


> Finally, the LSL will have no choice but to make things work on the LSL and other trains.


In the high season, the baggage loads to NYC easily fill a car by themselves. And the baggage loads west of NYC... easily fill a car by themselves. I guess they'll just have to double up with two full baggage cars and a bag-dorm west of Albany. Or I suppose they could do one full baggage car and TWO bag-dorms, but there don't seem to be enough bag-dorms on order.



AlanB said:


> Please see my other post above to Battalion51 regarding the number of cars and the idea on those luggage shelving modules.


It still won't be enough in midsummer.
From what I've read, baggage loads have stayed relatively light on the Crescent and the Cardinal (so both would probably be fine with a single bag-dorm) but on the NY section of the LSL, baggage loads are enormous. Perhaps it's the high volume of passengers connecting to/from Western trains.



> I'm not at all sure about the LSL getting another sleeper. Far more likely that the Star gets an extra sleeper, or perhaps they'll go back to a seasonal rotation of the extra sleeper between the Star & the LSL.


A seasonal rotation would make sense if the high season for the Star is in the winter.

I fiddled around with a spreadsheet in an attempt to increase the roomette availablity of each of the eastern trains by roughly the same percentage. The Cardinal *more than doubles* roomette availability just by adding the bag-dorm, so it would probably be overtesting the market to give it an extra sleeper immediately.

I've sort of been assuming that each of the other Viewliner trains will get one extra sleeper, more or less. That's (4 + 4 + 4 + 3). After the Viewliner Is are retrofitted to the configuration of the Viewliner IIs (as rumored), this roughly doubles capacity for every train except the Meteor (60% increase) and the Boston section of the LSL (slight reduction). This leaves enough for one Pennsy sleeper (3), and one on 66/67 (2), and spares (5).

It's possible that instead of an extra LSL sleeper the Pennsy would get 2 sleepers; that comes out much the same from my standpoint -- it's end-to-end NY-Chicago capacity, and ends up freeing roomettes (and lowering prices) for upstate NY.

I think the value of having enough capacity on Chicago-East Coast service is higher than the value of having enough capacity on Florida-NY service due to *connections*.

The Florida trains are stub ends. The Chicago-East Coast trains are core network links feeding passengers to the western and Chicago Hub trains. It would be very unwise of Amtrak to shortchange NY-Chicago capacity in favor of Florida capacity. (Unfortunately, the Cardinal, with its very long routing and three-a-week service, doesn't really count as connecting Chicago-East Coast capacity.) As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm not taking a western trip this year partly because the cost to get to Chicago is so high.


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## Nathanael (Mar 9, 2013)

Hmm. Of course if two sleepers are added to the Pennsy, and if a lot of people switch from the LSL to the Pennsy, it might be that the baggage load from the LSL ALSO shifts to the Pennsy, in which case the LSL could live with a bag-dorm on the NY end, but the Pennsy would need a baggage car.


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## AlanB (Mar 9, 2013)

SubwayNut said:


> Is the plan for the baggage car to still have a bike rack as well?I know that was in one of the early proposals.


As far as I know that is still the plan, at least for the full baggage cars. Not sure if the Bag/Dorms will have one shelving unit replaced with a bike rack.


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## AlanB (Mar 9, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Finally, the LSL will have no choice but to make things work on the LSL and other trains.
> ...


I have no idea how they're going to make things work, although I will say that the last few times I rode the LSL baggage seemed to be down from the levels in years past, but the simple reality is that Amtrak isn't going to have enough bags of any type to put three on the LSL.



Nathanael said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Please see my other post above to Battalion51 regarding the number of cars and the idea on those luggage shelving modules.
> ...


Again, it may not be enough, but I don't know where they're going to find more baggage cars to add an extra one to the LSL. At least not without exercising at least one option on the Viewliner II order.



Nathanael said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not at all sure about the LSL getting another sleeper. Far more likely that the Star gets an extra sleeper, or perhaps they'll go back to a seasonal rotation of the extra sleeper between the Star & the LSL.
> ...


It is. For years Amtrak played that game sending the extra sleeper south in the Winter and west in the Summer. They stopped doing so because demand on the LSL was going through the roof year round, not just in the summer. And in both directions, whereas the Silver's the extra car was really only needed in one direction, south in the fall and north in the spring.



Nathanael said:


> I fiddled around with a spreadsheet in an attempt to increase the roomette availablity of each of the eastern trains by roughly the same percentage. The Cardinal *more than doubles* roomette availability just by adding the bag-dorm, so it would probably be overtesting the market to give it an extra sleeper immediately.
> I've sort of been assuming that each of the other Viewliner trains will get one extra sleeper, more or less. That's (4 + 4 + 4 + 3). After the Viewliner Is are retrofitted to the configuration of the Viewliner IIs (as rumored), this roughly doubles capacity for every train except the Meteor (60% increase) and the Boston section of the LSL (slight reduction). This leaves enough for one Pennsy sleeper (3), and one on 66/67 (2), and spares (5).


Five spares aren't enough! Five spares isn't even enough for the planned number of spare cars sitting in the yards, much less for inspection work and major repairs. So that plan isn't going to work. Amtrak wants to have 2 spares in SNY, 2 in Hialeah, 1 in CHI, and 1 in NOL. Right now it's rare that CHI has one, and NOL isn't even in the plan.

Then at any given time right now, at least 2 cars must be out of service (OOS) for annual inspections. That will have to increase 3 now with the extra 25 sleepers. And you'll need 3 out at any given time at least, may have to be 4, for 92 day inspections. So that's at a minimum, 11 sleepers that on any given day are not available for use.

At the bottom of this page is an interesting table showing the old utilization of the Viewliner sleepers from about 10 years ago. This gives you some idea of the current plan that Amtrak operates under, even though as I noted its rare that CHI actually has a spare sitting there.



Nathanael said:


> It's possible that instead of an extra LSL sleeper the Pennsy would get 2 sleepers; that comes out much the same from my standpoint -- it's end-to-end NY-Chicago capacity, and ends up freeing roomettes (and lowering prices) for upstate NY.


With no dining car, I suspect that the Pennsy would only get 1 sleeper.


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## afigg (Mar 9, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> In the high season, the baggage loads to NYC easily fill a car by themselves. And the baggage loads west of NYC... easily fill a car by themselves. I guess they'll just have to double up with two full baggage cars and a bag-dorm west of Albany. Or I suppose they could do one full baggage car and TWO bag-dorms, but there don't seem to be enough bag-dorms on order.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How efficiently are heritage baggage cars loaded in terms of making use of the available volume of storage space? From what I have observed, not very efficiently at all, say, compared to an airliner. If they just pile the bags up on the floor, that is making poor use of the vertical volume capacity of a baggage car. If the new baggage cars and shelve module are designed right, they should allow for better use of the storage volume, better separation of bags by destination, and more efficient loading and unloading of bags. It is not the 1950s anymore.
As for adding a full baggage car to a train with a bag-dorm (except for the combined LSL), that adds cost to running the train. That should be something which is only done on special occasions or at the peak of the peak periods where they know there will be more baggage than the baggage-dorm car can hold. The goal should be to be efficient in the LD train operations and not carry dead space & weight. Amtrak did tighten up the rules on number and size of checked baggage last year. if people want to check more than 2 large bags, take a page from the airlines and hit them up for it.


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## afigg (Mar 9, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Again, it may not be enough, but I don't know where they're going to find more baggage cars to add an extra one to the LSL. At least not without exercising at least one option on the Viewliner II order.


Is there any information on when the CAF order option would expire in the current contract? I think it is safe to say that Amtrak is not likely to exercise any part of the option while sequestration is in effect and the FY13 budget is unsettled. Then there is the FY14 budget for Amtrak and the PRUUA re-authorization which could drag on for a long time with continuing resolutions. If by sometime in CY 2014, the budget situation has settled enough for Amtrak to exercise part of the option and order 15-20 additional cars, will they be able to do so under the current contract? I suspect the answer is that is not public information.


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## jis (Mar 9, 2013)

> Is there any information on when the CAF order option would expire in the current contract? I think it is safe to say that Amtrak is not likely to exercise any part of the option while sequestration is in effect and the FY13 budget is unsettled. Then there is the FY14 budget for Amtrak and the PRUUA re-authorization which could drag on for a long time with continuing resolutions. If by sometime in CY 2014, the budget situation has settled enough for Amtrak to exercise part of the option and order 15-20 additional cars, will they be able to do so under the current contract? I suspect the answer is that is not public information.


I don't know why people worry so much about Authorizations. They are not really worth the paper they are written on since the actual appropriations occasionally bear a tenuous connection to the authorizations.

Any outfit that does final planning based on Authorizations is completely out of its mind IMHO. It is almost guaranteed that what is authorized will not be appropriated.


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## afigg (Mar 9, 2013)

jis said:


> I don't know why people worry so much about Authorizations. They are not really worth the paper they are written on since the actual appropriations occasionally bear a tenuous connection to the authorizations.
> Any outfit that does final planning based on Authorizations is completely out of its mind IMHO. It is almost guaranteed that what is authorized will not be appropriated.


The issue with the next Authorization for Amtrak is not so much the specified max funding levels, because Amtrak never gets that much in the actual appropriations, but the requirements and framework that is the bill. The 2008 PRIIA act shifted operational subsidy funding for routes of < 750 miles to the states. Some Republicans in the House may add a rule that requires Amtrak to cancel any LD train with a total cost recovery of less than so many percent within 3 years or include other lines at attack on the LD trains. Force anti-LD train items to be in the bill in return for not forcing Amtrak to sell off the portions of the NEC they own. But that is getting off-topic for this thread, because until there are draft bills for the public to read, nothing to discuss. The immediate question is what will the final FY13 and FY14 appropriation amounts be for Amtrak and what will that mean for possible option orders from CAF?


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## jis (Mar 9, 2013)

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know why people worry so much about Authorizations. They are not really worth the paper they are written on since the actual appropriations occasionally bear a tenuous connection to the authorizations.
> ...


You don't need an authorization bill for doing that though of course it could be used for such. You can achieve that by attaching an amendment to almost any random bill, as things go in Congress.


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## Nathanael (Mar 10, 2013)

afigg said:


> How efficiently are heritage baggage cars loaded in terms of making use of the available volume of storage space? From what I have observed, not very efficiently at all, say, compared to an airliner. If they just pile the bags up on the floor, that is making poor use of the vertical volume capacity of a baggage car. If the new baggage cars and shelve module are designed right, they should allow for better use of the storage volume, better separation of bags by destination, and more efficient loading and unloading of bags. It is not the 1950s anymore.


Well, yeah, but in August, I've seen three full, overloaded motorized baggage floats unloaded in Syracuse eastbound (and two loaded on!), and similar numbers at Rochester, and similar numbers at Buffalo. If the total area of shelving units in the bag-dorm have width about four times the width of a baggage car door, as it appears, then you can fit a little more than four floats per bag-dorm before you start putting bags in front of the shelves and making the shelves unreachable. This will require a full baggage car for sure, as you've filled up the capacity of a bag-dorm without adding any Boston baggage.
And in the summer I've seen really large amounts of baggage being unloaded in New York City (admittedly on a train which was hauling extra coaches marked for group travel). The baggage load adds up really quite fast in midsummer. And people will pay the fee for it.

Now that I think about it, Amtrak's most recent documents appear to call for retaining some of the Heritage baggage cars into 2015, which at the time I thought was odd. Perhaps these are intended for summer peak overflow, so that we'd see just a bag-dorm heading to NYC *most* of the time, but with a full baggage car added on during the peak of the peak. That would make sense.

Also, it's interesting to hear that the Silver Star has a winter peak; since the LSL has a very definite summer peak, I expect the rotating sleeper will be back.


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## Mike Matthews (Oct 19, 2013)

Caught a glimpse of what looked like a new Amtrak car at Union Station in Chicago, single level with a second row of narrower windows across the real two-thirds of the car . . . would that have been a diner or a sleeper? Sure would be nice of the upper bunk in the roomette had windows!

*Mike Matthews*

Colorado Springs

_Traveling Amtrak since 1984_


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## Ryan (Oct 19, 2013)

That's a Viewliner, which could have come in on the LSL or Cardinal. Probably a sleeper, although there is 1 Viewliner diner operating.


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## engr08 (Oct 19, 2013)

I guess he saw the 8400


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## Ryan (Oct 19, 2013)

Far more likely a sleeper.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2013)

From Gene Poon on TO:



> On Thursday October 24, CAF and Amtrak will hold a media event at the CAF facility
> 
> in Elmira NY to publicize the new Amtrak Viewliner II equipment being built there.


Apparently the first units will be run in non-rev on all routes to familiarize staff with them before they are placed into service. Planning is in progress for the same. First deliveries in winter this year. We'll know more at the press event.


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## afigg (Oct 23, 2013)

jis said:


> Apparently the first units will be run in non-rev on all routes to familiarize staff with them before they are placed into service. Planning is in progress for the same. First deliveries in winter this year. We'll know more at the press event.


If the first "deliveries" are to take place in winter, that indicates that the media event will be to show the completed or nearly completed units that will be sent to Pueblo, Colorado for testing. Then the production run units would shipping a couple of months later. Would not make sense to have a media event if nothing is going anywhere for months. But we will find out on Thursday. Presumably there will be a bunch of press photos to look at and comment on.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2013)

I heard a rumor that Brian Gallagher might be on the Saturday Fall Color excursion. If so maybe we can get hold of him and ask him a few questions about this. We'll see.


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## Acela150 (Oct 23, 2013)

jis said:


> I heard a rumor that Brian Gallagher might be on the Saturday Fall Color excursion. If so maybe we can get hold of him and ask him a few questions about this. We'll see.


IF BG shows he'll be answering all kinds of foamer questions.. I think ours are the most logical though..


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

Amtrak has a new blog post up with pictures. Cars look AWESOME!

http://blog.amtrak.com/2013/10/coming-soon-new-long-distance-cars/

Teaser:


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## VT Hokie (Oct 24, 2013)

What's with the Phase III though? I hope they're not switching color schemes again. Expect it to be a decade or more before Amtrak has decent looking uniform consists again if so...


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## afigg (Oct 24, 2013)

The photo of the two assembly / fitting out lines shows at least 7 cars, perhaps 8. So there are at least that many cars frames built.


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## Blackwolf (Oct 24, 2013)

Looking good! I was hoping for more photos and perhaps a video press release showing a walk-through of at least one of the cars, but this is more than we had until now! I find the swing doors for the baggage cars to be a little interesting, as I would have figured sliding doors would be the norm. Also, it seems you'll be able to identify the car type based on its roof profile pretty easily. Full baggage cars have four large ventilators on the roof, where-as the Bag-Dorms only have one smaller ventilator. The roof of the diners are smooth and unbroken, and it would almost appear the sleepers are as well.

I like the Phase III paint, though I suppose the nit-picky would call it a Phase III-B or something because of the red reflective stripe at the bottom.


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## afigg (Oct 24, 2013)

Amtrak YouTube video on the new cars: Preview: New Single-Level Long Distance Cars. Not a lot of views of the new cars, more emphasis on the economic and efficiency benefits by Boardman.


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## Blackwolf (Oct 24, 2013)

afigg said:


> Amtrak YouTube video on the new cars: Preview: New Single-Level Long Distance Cars. Not a lot of views of the new cars, more emphasis on the economic and efficiency benefits by Boardman.


Huh! Anyone else catch the last shot in the video showing a new sleeper, in Phase III, with the old Pointless Arrow logo and the words "Amtrak America" spelled out???

Not to mention, Boardman stating "Amtrak America" just as that shot is being shown?

I don't like reading into things very deeply, but that strikes me as something profoundly new. Opinions?


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

Yeah, the Phase III and pointless arrow are AWESOME!


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## jis (Oct 24, 2013)

Phase III livery and the return of the pointless arrow! Wow!

The interiors look really attractive. I see new color schemes - much warmer colors and lighting - in the Sleepers.


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## MattW (Oct 24, 2013)

According to the first "comment" by Amtrak under the blog article, the logo at least is only a short-term or temporary thing. They say that the current logo will return on the standard cars, but it's not clear if that includes the Ph-IVb striping or not. As nice as the old Ph-III striping looks, I'd prefer a uniform fleet.


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

It doesn't include the striping, Phase III is BACK! 



> With the launch of our new single-level long distance equipment – the “Viewliner II”, Amtrak is also launching Amtrak America, a brand that will encompass all that is great about Amtrak’s long-haul trains, including those with sleeper class service. Amtrak’s route brands will continue, and this brand will make the conversation and overall service offerings clear to our customers and stakeholders.
> 
> *Amtrak America will utilize our Phase Three striping on the single-level long distance cars as a tribute to our heritage.* The first cars released from production will also carry Amtrak’s heritage logo in honor of our past. Amtrak’s current logo will return on the standard production cars.


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## jis (Oct 24, 2013)

I guess BG strikes again! He has been mumbling about Phase III for quite a while now, ever since the Heritage Phase III units came on line


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## Blackwolf (Oct 24, 2013)

RyanS said:


> It doesn't include the striping, Phase III is BACK!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_*I think this new information might require a brand new thread to be started!*_

IMHO, this is *HUGE* news. Amtrak seems to have officially shifted the Long-Distance trains into their own very public category with this move. The LD's (at least, the single-level LD's for now) will have their own paint scheme (LOVING the return of Phase III) separate from the rest of the fleet and the very patriotic name of "Amtrak America."

That makes Amtrak have some pretty defined naming practices from this point forward:


Amtrak America - Long-Distance full-service routes
Northeast Regional - NEC standard service
Acela - High-speed full-service routes (but currently available only on the NEC)
Amtrak California - California-based standard service
Amtrak Cascades - Pacific northwest Talgo service


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2013)

That is a fine idea, I've started such a thread.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/57231-amtrak-america-new-ld-train-branding/

If the mods want to go a different direction, feel free to do some of that merge/lock/magic stuff.


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2013)

Another slip in the schedule came with

the release today. The new cars were

to be in revenue service "spring" of 2014,

but Amtrak is now saying "summer".

Since summer ends in late September ...

I guess I'm OK with it because as long as

the assembly line is open, it will be easier

to add to the order. Going with either the

full 70-car option or piecemeal with a dozen

or so cars now and again, while Amtrak

searches for pocket change to make the

payments, would help near-term capacity

and long-term future revenue.


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