# 10 % penalty for changing



## PaulM (Feb 24, 2016)

No one seems to be interested in this topic, at leasing searching "10% points penalty" returned no results. The only rule I could find was



> Points difference (to new prevailing fare) will apply in all cases with a 10% points penalty withheld on any fare difference returned to member


First of all taking 10% of a fare difference and coming up with points is strange mathematics. Secondly, it sounds like if the fare goes up or remains the same, there is no penalty, since there would be no fare or points to return to member.

I had reason to change the dates on two reservations using points under the new system and thought I would report on my experience.

The outbound trip cost $429.50 with the not applicable senior discount included. It cost 15,905 points. The new date cost $325.50 or 12,317 points for difference of 3588 with a penalty of 358. AGR transactions-wise, the original charge of 15,905 immediately dropped off, a new one of 12,317 appeared, along with an "adjustment" of 358.

The new return trip cost $325.50 points; and the point difference was 1828, 10% of which is 182. I asked the agent what would happen if the fares were the same and there was no point difference. She said the 10% is applied to the fare price, which of course, would only be 32 points. I disagreed; but she said that in any event, the computer would do the right thing, which it did.

I still don't know what would happen if the price were to go up. Does Amtrak deliberately make their rules unintelligible or is there a general lack of language skills?


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## Ryan (Feb 24, 2016)

It's been discussed extensively, and it isn't complicated.

If you make a change that results in points being returned to your account, a 10% penalty on the returned points will be applied (i.e. 90% of the refund will go to your account). That doubles to a 20% penalty for close in changes (24 hours for everything but sleepers, 2 weeks for sleepers).


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## the_traveler (Feb 25, 2016)

It does make sense, because the amount of points are based on the price, it is exactly the same "penalty" as if you paid cash and asked for a refund to your credit card (10% or 90% back)! What I don't like is the 20% penalty for close-in cancellations!


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## willem (Feb 25, 2016)

Well, no, it doesn't make sense to compare the points penalty to a cash refund. If one takes the refund as a voucher, which can only be used for Amtrak, then one gets 100% of the fare difference. If one take points, which can only be used for Amtrak, one gets 90% of the points. If one takes cash, which can be used anywhere, one gets 90% of the cash. It's apples and oranges, because one takes the cash penalty for points, even though points are only good at Amtrak.


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## the_traveler (Feb 26, 2016)

willem said:


> Even though points are only good at Amtrak.


Not necessarily. You can also redeem AGR points for things like gift cards and other rewards - the same as you would do with cash! (OK, at a bad exchange ratio.)


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## PaulM (Feb 26, 2016)

Ryan said:


> It's been discussed extensively, and it isn't complicated.
> 
> If you make a change that results in points being returned to your account, a 10% penalty on the returned points will be applied (i.e. 90% of the refund will go to your account). That doubles to a 20% penalty for close in changes (24 hours for everything but sleepers, 2 weeks for sleepers).


I would hope it wouldn't be complicated. But clarity is the issue. It's not clear to me, and wasn't to the agent I spoke with.

I does sound like you are implying that if the price stays the same or goes up, there is no penalty. I would be nice if Amtrak stated that somewhere.


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## Ryan (Feb 26, 2016)

The website seems to be abundantly clear:

"Points difference (to new prevailing fare) will apply in all cases with a 10% points penalty withheld on any fare difference returned to member"

If no points are returned, 10% of zero is zero.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 27, 2016)

Ryan said:


> The website seems to be abundantly clear:
> 
> "Points difference (to new prevailing fare) will apply in all cases with a 10% points penalty *withheld on any fare difference returned to member*"
> 
> If no points are returned, 10% of zero is zero.


That part of it seems to be clear, but then here's the second bullet point for the close-in penalty:



> If modifying a non-sleeper ticket within 24 hours prior to departure, or a sleeper ticket within 14 days prior to departure, an additional "close-in" penalty of *10% of the points redeemed will be collected* (waived for Select Executive).


That seems to say that the close-in penalty is different than the original penalty. That the close-in penalty is 10% of your entire redemption, not just the redeposit, and "will be collected" suggests it will be clawed out of your account if necessary.

Taking the AGR wording literally (always a risk), here's an example:

Original redemption - 40,000 points, Sleeper

Change 15 or more days in advance:


To a reservation costing 40,000 points or more - no penalty
To a reservation costing less then 40,000 points or cancelation - 10% of refunded points
Change 14 days or fewer prior to travel:


To a reservation costing 40,000 points or more - no regular penalty + close-in penalty of 4000 points (taken from account) 
To a reservation costing less then 40,000 points or cancelation - 10% of refunded points + close-in penalty of an additional 4000 points
I cannot believe that is actually what they mean. I have to think that one of those two conflicting items is worded incorrectly. However, taken word-for-word, that is what they are saying, and despite having this incongruity being identified to them, AGR has not clarified the policy to suggest otherwise.


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## Ryan (Feb 27, 2016)

I agree that the close in wording is awful, but that's not what Paul was talking about.


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## PaulM (Feb 29, 2016)

Ryan said:


> I agree that the close in wording is awful, but that's not what Paul was talking about.


Very true. I was trying to parse



> Points difference (to new prevailing fare) will apply in all cases with a 10% points penalty withheld on any fare difference returned to member


The more I look at that sentence, the weirder it gets. But I'll let it go because picking apart AGR communications would be like shooting fish in a barrel.


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## Ryan (Feb 29, 2016)

And that's the non-confusing point. For AGR redemptions, the fare is simply denominated in points, not dollars.


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