# Some bus riders would abandon roads for rails



## Superliner Diner (Jun 24, 2003)

From Northeastern Pennsylvania _Times-Leader_, 6/23/03:



> WILKES-BARRE - If the trains run, they will ride.
> Passengers boarding and departing buses at the Martz bus terminal on Public Square on Sunday afternoon voiced overwhelming support for passenger rail service linking Wilkes-Barre and Hoboken, N.J.


The entire article can be found here.


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## Viewliner (Jun 24, 2003)

I hope the service happens. It would be very nice if they also would eventually electrify it. (Maybe after they build another Hudson River Tunnel)


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## AlanB (Jun 24, 2003)

Viewliner said:


> I hope the service happens. It would be very nice if they also would eventually electrify it. (Maybe after they build another Hudson River Tunnel)


Boy, now you're really dreaming. 

Although I have to admit that electrifying to Scranton would be nice.


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## Superliner Diner (Jun 24, 2003)

AlanB said:


> Although I have to admit that electrifying to Scranton would be nice.


Well, it's already electrified to Dover.... what percentage of the route is that, about half? Or more like a third?


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## AlanB (Jun 24, 2003)

Superliner Diner said:


> Well, it's already electrified to Dover.... what percentage of the route is that, about half? Or more like a third?


Well I guess that one first must decide where your starting point will be. Would it be the original M&E terminous of Hoboken or the newly available Penn Station.

Either way I don't think that it's quite halfway. I'm not sure of the actual rail miles, I'll have to go look at some maps tomorrow. However using I-80 as a benchmark, NJ is 74 miles wide at that point. Dover is about 40 miles from the George Washington Bridge, which puts it slightly past halfway across the state. However we now have to add on the distance in PA all the way to Scranton. That's like another 60 miles at least (I'm not really sure, just guessing here).

However just going by that we are now up to 90 miles or more from Dover to Scranton. So that would put electrification at about a third of the way out the route.


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## Superliner Diner (Jun 25, 2003)

AlanB said:


> Superliner Diner said:
> 
> 
> > Well, it's already electrified to Dover.... what percentage of the route is that, about half?  Or more like a third?
> ...


And furthermore, this article talks about service to Wilkes-Barre, which is still further than Scranton. Tack on about another ten miles to whatever total you come up with, since a westbound train would hit Scranton first, and then Wilkes-Barre.

However the folks in New York State who want to jump on the bandwagon would like to have the train extended beyond Scranton to Binghamton (after that, who knows? Buffalo? Syracuse?). This route would probably be more preferred over extending the Port Jervis Line along Route 17, particularly since the latter has no direct access to New York Penn Station, other than a transfer at the future Secaucus Transfer. If it eventually goes beyond Scranton to Binghamton, then Wilkes-Barre is not an option unless the route splits at Scranton.

I would assume an eastern terminus of New York Penn Station, since the whole exercise of electrifying the line is to provide one-seat service end-to-end. Passengers would lose some of their dignity having to switch to and from PATH in Hoboken.


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## AlanB (Jun 25, 2003)

Superliner Diner said:


> I would assume an eastern terminus of New York Penn Station, since the whole exercise of electrifying the line is to provide one-seat service end-to-end. Passengers would lose some of their dignity having to switch to and from PATH in Hoboken.


While I have no scientific data with which to prove it, most people wouldn't care about a switch to PATH in Hoboken.

My mom works for a new homebuilder in the Pocono’s. One of the most frequently asked questions they get is "When is the train service supposed to start?" Now while I'm sure that the people in PA would prefer a one seat ride into Penn, from what my mom's company is seeing, most people will do anything to avoid driving on I-80 or riding the bus. Even riding to Hoboken & PATH. As any commuter in NJ knows I-80 is a parking lot almost everyday. The bus service is no prize either, in part because it gets stuck in the same I-80 traffic, in part because of cost and lack of service.

Martz, the company that provides service to the Pocono area, has increased bus service over the last 10 years by maybe 10% if they are lucky. That’s a very small increase, despite the fact that the Pocono’s have one of the fastest growing populations in the US. I would not be shocked to learn that over that same 10-year period that the population has doubled in the Pocono’s. So a 10% increase in bus service just doesn't cut it.

So again while I can’t prove it with actual numbers, I for one think that any rail service will be a huge success. I think that riders will endure a switch to PATH in Hoboken and/or a locomotive change in Dover, simply because either is preferable to a car or bus on I-80. In fact besides the initial costs of rebuilding the line, I think that one reason NJT is dragging their feet on this project is the fact that they can’t handle the ridership increase it will create. I suspect that they also feel that this line will help PA more than NJ, which is why they can’t agree on operating subsidies. Of course New Jersey is forgetting that helping PA with this train line will reduce the number of cars on NJ’s I-80.


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## Superliner Diner (Jun 25, 2003)

I guess a good example of a new service where changing trains does not matter (and for which there are favorable numbers) is Amtrak's Downeaster service. When it began it was totally isolated from the rest of the Amtrak system. (It still is, but only recently did they make it possible to reserve a ticket through to/from Downeaster points, with the understanding that the passenger still is repsonsible for getting between the Northeast Corridor and North Station on his own.) It's done very well, despite the subway or bus or taxi connection within downtown Boston.

My guess that if Hoboken were to be the eastern terminus (and it looks like it will, since electrification west of Dover seems totally out of the question), then there would not be an engine change at Dover, since diesel engines can, and do operate under the wires. And now that the Bergen Tunnels project (which includes improved ventilation) is nearing completion, it won't be so funky  in there when diesel-hauled trains pass through. I would expect that with Hoboken as the terminus, the timetable would show Midtown Direct connections at Dover to/from New York Penn Station.


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## Viewliner (Jun 25, 2003)

You Guys Bring Up Some Good Points, probably then have a connecting Train in Dover, then Have the Train from PA run express (limited stops), making stops maybe at Morristown, Summit, Milburn, Maplewood, Newark, Secaucus, and Hoboken.


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## AlanB (Jun 25, 2003)

Viewliner said:


> You Guys Bring Up Some Good Points, probably then have a connecting Train in Dover, then Have the Train from PA run express (limited stops), making stops maybe at Morristown, Summit, Milburn, Maplewood, Newark, Secaucus, and Hoboken.


_Secaucus_ You've got the wrong line for that stop. :blink:

One either would have to be on the NEC or on the Bergen/Main line to stop a Secaucus.


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## Viewliner (Jun 25, 2003)

Oops, well then just the other stops, I forget that only the MidTOWN Direct trains stop there.

Unless by some miracle Secaucus could manage to accomodate a train terminating (and turning around) there.


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## Superliner Diner (Jun 25, 2003)

Viewliner said:


> Oops, well then just the other stops, I forget that only the MidTOWN Direct trains stop there.
> Unless by some miracle Secaucus could manage to accomodate a train terminating (and turning around) there.


Miracle indeed. It's going to be a nightmare as it is, coordinating the NJT and Amtrak movements through the upper level of the station, the NJT movements downstairs, and the always-at-capacity high line and North River tunnels. Terminating a train in that area would probably be operationally impossible, even if it can find a window to use the few crossovers in the area without impacting other trains.

Ideally, NJT wants to run some shuttle trains that would go NY Penn-Secaucus-Newark Penn-Newark Liberty Airport, thus taking some local traffic off the Northeast Corridor (Trenton) & North Jersey Coast Line trains, as well as Midtown Direct, which one could also use between NY Penn and Secaucus. So that is still more use of the line that could occur. They don't need some long-distance diesel job fouling the line.


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## AlanB (Jun 25, 2003)

Superliner Diner said:


> Miracle indeed. It's going to be a nightmare as it is, coordinating the NJT and Amtrak movements through the upper level of the station, the NJT movements downstairs, and the always-at-capacity high line and North River tunnels. Terminating a train in that area would probably be operationally impossible, even if it can find a window to use the few crossovers in the area without impacting other trains.


Well I don't know about them needing a miracle to coordinate movements through the upper level. After all this used to be a two-track mainline in this area. Now thanks to this new station it will be a four-track main. So keeping trains flowing won't be that hard.

Now I suppose that one could perhaps manage to terminate one train per hour at this station during rush hour without totally screwing up the main line. However I think that the real problem with terminating a train in Secaucus is the fact that there is no where for those passengers to go. After all the NJT trains on the NEC and many of the M&E Midtown direct trains are already jammed full of people. This is one reason that the opening has been delayed, at least until NJT get more cars and PATH service resumes to the WTC site.

Anyhow, you now you have a diesel train come by and drop off a few hundred more passengers, add the transfers from the Bergen/Main Line trains and there is simply no way you are going to get all of those passengers on a Manhattan bound train. You'll be lucky if you can get on the fifth or sixth train coming through.


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## Superliner Diner (Jun 25, 2003)

AlanB said:


> Well I don't know about them needing a miracle to coordinate movements through the upper level.  After all this used to be a two-track mainline in this area.  Now thanks to this new station it will be a four-track main.  So keeping trains flowing won't be that hard.
> Now I suppose that one could perhaps manage to terminate one train per hour at this station during rush hour without totally screwing up the main line.  However I think that the real problem with terminating a train in Secaucus is the fact that there is no where for those passengers to go.  After all the NJT trains on the NEC and many of the M&E Midtown direct trains are already jammed full of people.  This is one reason that the opening has been delayed, at least until NJT get more cars and PATH service resumes to the WTC site.


What I meant was that scheduling has to be intricate, since passengers alighting in Secaucus, most of whom are transferring to another line, are going to want their second train within the time it takes to go up or down the escalators. A 45-minute wait for another train (or the next train with seats) simply won't cut it. The timetables are going to have to be tweeked on all the lines involved, upstairs and downstairs, to allow for reasonable transfers. So it's imperative that trains stay on time before they get there, and get through there with minimal station time so the next train behind it can take its place. One late train can foul things up seriously. Because operating anything late could cause bedlam on the tracks and the platforms, I doubt that they will be able to hold trains for late arrivals.

When I went through there a week ago, the platforms on the upper level are nearing completion. They have their flooring, bright lighting, some signage, etc. I could see clearly that there are side platforms on Tracks 1 and 4, and a center island platform between the two middle tracks. Whether this means Amtrak will stop there is a good guess. But if you're going to have trains stopping on both tracks in each direction, that will increase _station_ capacity in Secaucus but not necessarily _track_ capacity on the line since one train will have to await proper clearance behind the first one to leave. In both directions, two tracks go down to one right after the station.


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## AlanB (Jun 25, 2003)

Superliner Diner said:


> When I went through there a week ago, the platforms on the upper level are nearing completion. They have their flooring, bright lighting, some signage, etc. I could see clearly that there are side platforms on Tracks 1 and 4, and a center island platform between the two middle tracks. Whether this means Amtrak will stop there is a good guess. But if you're going to have trains stopping on both tracks in each direction, that will increase _station_ capacity in Secaucus but not necessarily _track_ capacity on the line since one train will have to await proper clearance behind the first one to leave.


Well last I knew this was strictly an NJT operation, so I can't imagine that Amtrak will start stopping here.

Besides there isn't enough time to collect tickets before arriving at Penn. That's why NJT is setting up those turnstyles that all riders will have to put their tickets through in order to transfer from the Bergen/Main Line to the NEC.


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## Superliner Diner (Jun 26, 2003)

Getting back to the original point, I still think that a Poconos train would best utilize one of the traditional terminal stations, Hoboken or NY Penn. If you were to originate/terminate a train at Secaucus, the only benefit would be to get transfer passengers off the Main, Bergen County, and Pascack Valley Lines. It seems a rather circuitous trip for somebody to go from Bergen County to Pennsylvania by first going in the wrong direction to Secaucus and changing trains. Plus if you make Secaucus the origin/endpoint, then those coming from Hoboken (and PATH) would have to take one of the above lines to Secaucus to change to the Poconos train, or a Morris & Essex Lines local to Newark-Broad Street or Summit or Dover and change there.

Bottom line, there will be little or no walk-up business at Secaucus as it will function mostly as a transfer station. Having a train begin or end its run there means that nearly 100% of its passengers will have to change trains to get to or from it, and you miss offering through service to BOTH New York City and the Hudson County riverfront.


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## AlanB (Jun 26, 2003)

Superliner Diner said:


> Getting back to the original point, I still think that a Poconos train would best utilize one of the traditional terminal stations, Hoboken or NY Penn. If you were to originate/terminate a train at Secaucus, the only benefit would be to get transfer passengers off the Main, Bergen County, and Pascack Valley Lines. It seems a rather circuitous trip for somebody to go from Bergen County to Pennsylvania by first going in the wrong direction to Secaucus and changing trains. Plus if you make Secaucus the transfer point, then those coming from Hoboken (and PATH) would have to take one of the above lines to Secaucus to change to this line, or a Morris & Essex Lines local to Newark-Broad Street or Summit or Dover and change there.
> Bottom line, there will be little or no walk-up business at Secaucus as it will function mostly as a transfer station. Having a train begin or end its run there means that nearly 100% of its passengers will have to change trains to get to or from it, and you miss offering through service to BOTH New York City and the Hudson County riverfront.


Agreed, there is little to no reason to terminate a train from Pennsy here. Yet there are many good reasons not to terminate a train here.

Besides travelers from Pennsy will have many other places to change trains to NYP, assuming that an engine change is not made in Dover.


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## Viewliner (Jun 26, 2003)

Being a little unrealistic once more, it would be nice if they could equip those trains with some sort of food service, considering the distance, maybe in the cab car to reduce congestion, or run it on like a once daily train to/from New York with an engine change in Dover.


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## AlanB (Jun 26, 2003)

Viewliner said:


> Being a little unrealistic once more, it would be nice if they could equip those trains with some sort of food service, considering the distance, maybe in the cab car to reduce congestion,


Actually that I think is a very good idea, after all a two plus hour ride is a little long. I don't think that they need to get crazy and have a huge food selection, but it should at least have snacks, sodas, and coffee.


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## Viewliner (Jun 27, 2003)

Yes, glad you agree, because with the old Comet I's a few Snack coaches actually were built.

The Basic Menu:

Coffee

Breakfast Sandwich/Danish/Pastry

Water

Soda

Snack Foods (Chips, Cookies)

Something like a microwavable Pizza.

Basically like an Amfleet I Cafe.


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## Superliner Diner (Jun 27, 2003)

Viewliner said:


> Being a little unrealistic once more, it would be nice if they could equip those trains with some sort of food service, considering the distance, maybe in the cab car to reduce congestion, or run it on like a once daily train to/from New York with an engine change in Dover.


Hmm , that could be an argument in favor of Amtrak running the service with their Amfleet equipment, since we know they already have food service cars. No, on second thought maybe not ---- they would not open up until after Newark, and they would probably close for inventory once they get to the Lackawanna Cutoff.


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