# Pets on Long Distance Trains



## AmtrakLKL (Feb 2, 2016)

I strongly suspect pets will be allowed to travel on long haul trains soon, or at least some of them. Haven't seen anything official, but there is some new paperwork floating around and some station agents have mentioned it is coming.


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## zepherdude (Feb 2, 2016)

Do you mean Newspapers all over the car?


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 2, 2016)

zepherdude said:


> Do you mean Newspapers all over the car?


:giggle:


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 2, 2016)

I'm sure there is a way to keep pets from becoming a problem, in fact we already know that the whole pet situation is largely resolved on airlines, but I'm not so sure Amtrak is capable of reliably handing pets in a similar manner. Every time I ride Amtrak I see layers of stains and other organic material mashed into the carpet from decades past. I wonder if this means pet stains and embedded fecal matter are likely to join the growing ecosystem contained in Amtrak's carpeting.


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## tonys96 (Feb 2, 2016)

I hope they go all in on this. Not piecemeal as on some short routes. Forcing just some pax to sit in "pet cars" , while keeping others from enjoying the company of theirs and others' pets is unconscionable!

Should be allowed on ALL TRAINS, in ALL CARS, except, maybe diners ( which might be disappearing anyway ). And not just small animals that fit in carriers under the seat.....what about those of us who own Labs or German Shepherds? Why can't we take our beloved pets too? Hey, most service dogs are large breeds and they are already allowed on all trains with no restrictions.

And, for that matter....why only dogs and/or cats? I have friends who have a pot bellied pig, and another who owns two dwarf rabbits. Why can't they take their pets with them, too??

Why must pets ride in a certain " pet car "? What if their owners want to take bedrooms or roomettes? Why the discrimination? Pets ought to be allowed in sleepers, too! And in the SSL! Why keep the enjoyment of the animals confined to one certain car? Everybody should have an equal opportunity to enjoy the animals!!

This " pet car " deal reeks of discrimination........


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## CCC1007 (Feb 2, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> I hope they go all in on this. Not piecemeal as on some short routes. Forcing just some pax to sit in "pet cars" , while keeping others from enjoying the company of theirs and others' pets is unconscionable!
> 
> Should be allowed on ALL TRAINS, in ALL CARS, except, maybe diners ( which might be disappearing anyway ). And not just small animals that fit in carriers under the seat.....what about those of us who own Labs or German Shepherds? Why can't we take our beloved pets too? Hey, most service dogs are large breeds and they are already allowed on all trains with no restrictions.
> 
> ...


All I can say is that pets are a deadly danger to some people, and if I pet an animal, and then rub my eyes, that will end my enjoyment of the day, since my allergies cause my eyes to swell shut, and my breathing is usually also affected.


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## tonys96 (Feb 2, 2016)

Devil said:


> I'm sure there is a way to keep pets from becoming a problem, in fact we already know that the whole pet situation is largely resolved on airlines, but I'm not so sure Amtrak is capable of reliably handing pets in a similar manner. Every time I ride Amtrak I see layers of stains and other material mashed into the carpet from decades past. I wonder if this means pet stains and embedded fecal matter are likely to join the growing ecosystem contained in Amtrak's carpeting.


Fecal matter is already a resident on most coach toilets mid route, what is the difference? Responsible pet owners at least attempt to clean things up, most coach attendants.....well not so much.....


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## tonys96 (Feb 2, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they go all in on this. Not piecemeal as on some short routes. Forcing just some pax to sit in "pet cars" , while keeping others from enjoying the company of theirs and others' pets is unconscionable!
> ...


Nobody will be forcing you to touch any animals.......and you might enjoy the nighttime barking.....and the wonderful aroma of urine and/or feces.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 2, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure there is a way to keep pets from becoming a problem, in fact we already know that the whole pet situation is largely resolved on airlines, but I'm not so sure Amtrak is capable of reliably handing pets in a similar manner. Every time I ride Amtrak I see layers of stains and other material mashed into the carpet from decades past. I wonder if this means pet stains and embedded fecal matter are likely to join the growing ecosystem contained in Amtrak's carpeting.
> ...


 The difference is that even if the train attendant doesn't bother to clean anything at least a toilet seat is a surface I can clean without much effort. How do I go about cleaning Amtrak's disgusting carpets? It's not like I can remove them and throw them into a washing machine. They're basically nothing more than permanently installed sponges.


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## JoeBas (Feb 2, 2016)

Why, oh why, does this forum not have a "Munching Popcorn" emoji? :huh:


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## HARHBG (Feb 2, 2016)

I've yet to see a "legitimate" service animal on Amtrak. Real service animals are trained, highly trained. Every "service animal" I've encountered on Amtrak Long Distance trains was just someones pet. How do I know? Just watch the handler and the animal. Legitimate service animals are trained and experienced in holding their toilet need for many hours at a time. My father supported our family all his life training Police Service Animals.

All the animals (I can recall 4 as of this writing) I've witnessed on board Long Distance trains did indeed urinate and defecate while on board the train, commonly in the vestibule on the lower level of the sleeper car in front of the door while waiting for the train to come to a full halt at a stop, leaving the sleeping car attendant to deal with the mess.

I first-hand watched / witnessed a woman take her dog into a lower level toilet to let the dog relieve itself on the floor and walk away. I had exited the shower and casually waited until the woman left then looked into the bathroom. What made me suspect? The frowning glare / scowl she threw at me as she entered the toilet. I raised a fuss, personally confronted the woman, got the conductor involved but to no avail. Conductor was too "timid" to confront the woman and I personally helped the service car attendant clean up the mess.

All anyone has to do is make the claim that it's a service dog and the animal is on board.

Legitimate "Service Dog" certification proof needs to be implemented for an animal to be allowed to be on board. Just like a proof of rabies vaccination is required for everything, licensing, etc., even taking your dog into a groomer. And he handler needs to be held financially responsible for any and all "messes" caused by the animal.

And before I get slammed for this post by those AU members that have taken a dislike to my brutal honestly in my postings..............

NO, I don't hate dogs. I grew up with dogs and had dogs in my home my entire life.

I just hate obnoxious, selfish, inconsiderate, self-centered, arrogant people who think the rules are meant for everyone else but themselves.

Guess that means I hate 75% of mankind.

Y'all have a great day..................


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## Eris (Feb 2, 2016)

HARHBG said:


> I've yet to see a "legitimate" service animal on Amtrak. Real service animals are trained, highly trained. Every "service animal" I've encountered on Amtrak Long Distance trains was just someones pet. How do I know? Just watch the handler and the animal. Legitimate service animals are trained and experienced in holding their toilet need for many hours at a time. My father supported our family all his life training Police Service Animals.


I have definitely seen legitimate service dogs on Amtrak. The trick with them is, it takes actively noticing them, because they do not make themselves obvious, in general (though there was a German Shepherd whose nose crept out into the aisle while he was sleeping, which he did for most of his trip. His partner noticed, though, and scooted the dog back out of the way). I've seen them more often in lower level coach than upper (Coast Starlight).

Certainly, though, I've witnessed a whole lot more questionable dogs, small, growly, yappy things, larger unruly dogs, and a nasty pitbull-style dog (nasty not by virtue of being a pitbull... these two descriptors are separate) whose people were arrested in Klamath Falls and the dog taken by animal control (after snarling and snapping at the officer), while its owner continued to claim it was a real service dog and chose arrest and claims of discrimination over quietly leaving the station with their dog and figuring out how to get where they were going some other way.


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## PVD (Feb 2, 2016)

The proposed rules, if enforced, make most of the concerns moot. I was skeptical of the concept myself, but the trial runs last year did not produce many problems. Remember, there is a 7 hour scheduled run restriction (including connection), it is not a full length of a long distance trip. Also, the number of pet reservations available is rather small.


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## JayPea (Feb 2, 2016)

JoeBas said:


> Why, oh why, does this forum not have a "Munching Popcorn" emoji? :huh:


How about some appropriate music instead? :lol:


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## AmtrakLKL (Feb 2, 2016)

Found some details:

In addition to the previously permitted trains, pets may be booked now for travel beginning February 16 on all long distance trains (except Auto Train), Palmetto 89/90, Carolinian (train 79 NYP-WAS only), Vermonter (WAS-SPG only) and all New Haven to Springfield trains. Pets are only permitted in coach class and may not be brought into sleepers or food service cars. An Acela pilot will begin February 20 and run through June 12. Pets may be brought onboard weekend/holiday 2200-series trains in business class only.

Summary of policies:


$25 per pet.
One small dog or cat per passenger in carrier, at least eight weeks old.
Combined weight of pet and carrier limited to 20 pounds and counts towards limit of two carry-on bags.
Limited to seven hours of travel, including any connections.
May sit in any coach car, but limited to five pets per train. For split trains (Lake Shore, Empire Builder), the limit is five pets per section.
*"Animals must be harmless, not disruptive, odorless and require no attention during travel. If these issues occur in route, the passenger and pet will have to leave the train at the next stop."*
Further, passenger+pet may now board at unstaffed stations and complete the pet release with the conductor after boarding.


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## Eric308 (Feb 2, 2016)

JayPea said:


> Why, oh why, does this forum not have a "Munching Popcorn" emoji? :huh:


How about some appropriate music instead? :lol:


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 2, 2016)

> May sit in any coach car, but limited to five pets per train. For split trains (Lake Shore, Empire Builder), the limit is five pets per section.


I wonder if the TE coach on the back of the SL can have up to five pets in a single car. That's not quite how I envisioned this working. Hopefully that's not how Amtrak sees it working either.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 2, 2016)

Guess my kitty won't be traveling with me. He weighs 20 lbs on his own. Doubt I can find a 0 lb carrier. :help:

No, I do not take my kitty with me on trips.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Feb 2, 2016)

HARHBG said:


> I've yet to see a "legitimate" service animal on Amtrak. Real service animals are trained, highly trained. Every "service animal" I've encountered on Amtrak Long Distance trains was just someones pet. How do I know? Just watch the handler and the animal. Legitimate service animals are trained and experienced in holding their toilet need for many hours at a time. My father supported our family all his life training Police Service Animals.
> 
> All the animals (I can recall 4 as of this writing) I've witnessed on board Long Distance trains did indeed urinate and defecate while on board the train, commonly in the vestibule on the lower level of the sleeper car in front of the door while waiting for the train to come to a full halt at a stop, leaving the sleeping car attendant to deal with the mess.
> 
> ...


I have seen only one. A "seeing eye" dog, wearing an appropriate marked vest, and had its own seat check (which I assume the service dog had a ticket?).

The rules for Service Animals changed a while back. I assume to address abuse. Animals who's primary purpose is companionship or comfort, are now excluded. Also, a Service Animal needs to have been trained by a recognized facility. For example, a dog that aids a blind person has to have been trained by a place like "Guiding Eyes", and not by your neighbor's kid.

For Amtrak, if what I observed is correct, giving Service Animals a ticket, such would give Amtrak an opportunity to do a "vetting" (a pun?)of the animal to ensure it does meet requirements (show me its diploma  ).


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## FriskyFL (Feb 2, 2016)

The pet car is called the "baggage car". Pets aren't people. Deal with it.


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## tonys96 (Feb 2, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> Found some details:
> 
> In addition to the previously permitted trains, pets may be booked now for travel beginning February 16 on all long distance trains (except Auto Train), Palmetto 89/90, Carolinian (train 79 NYP-WAS only), Vermonter (WAS-SPG only) and all New Haven to Springfield trains. Pets are only permitted in coach class and may not be brought into sleepers or food service cars. An Acela pilot will begin February 20 and run through June 12. Pets may be brought onboard weekend/holiday 2200-series trains in business class only.
> 
> ...


If this is the case, it is patently unfair!

Why can't I take Fido with me in a sleeper? This set of rules will allow Fido *any*where in *any* coach car, so an unsuspecting coach seatmate or those before and behind my little Fido get to enjoy him, why keep him out of sleepers? If my little Fido and I get on the TE in Little Rock, Ark, in the middle of the night and he happens to bark, he might wake up many of my surrounding coach pax, but if we get on in a sleeper, he will only wake a very few pax, cuz I can close the door. Why make me ride coach when I want to ride in a sleeper, and Fido would rather have the extra room, too? This is discriminating against Fido, keeping him out of sleepers! It is elitism!

And the weight restriction? What gives Amtrak the right to favor more svelte dogs over those who are a little more curvy? Fatophobia is what that is......weight-bias discrimination. Poor little Fido knows he is fat, why shame him even more?

And the seven hours? Many trains get delayed for many reasons, putting Fido off the train after seven hours is inhumane. We might only be halfway to our destination. My aunt is in Chicago, and she loves Fido. Fido and I are in the Dallas area, why make us get off the Eagle in Malvern, catch the next day's Eagle and get off again in Poplar Bluff to catch next day's Eagle to Springfield and disembark once more to get the following days Eagle on into the Windy City, when we could just take the Eagle all the way to Chicago? Would it be so Amtrak can price gouge li'l Fido for three extra $25 fees? Unconscionable!

And this "only dogs or cats" stuff? My friends dwarf rabbits are far quieter than either a dog or a cat!!! UNFAIR! :angry2:


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## HenryK (Feb 2, 2016)

Being the human part of a service dog team, I can make a few comments:

1. By federal law, no formal certified training by "recognized facilities" is needed for a service animal. It simply must be trained to perform a task for a person with disabilities that the person can't perform for himself. People sometimes do this with their own dogs. Most often, though, they indeed are professionally trained.

2. Service animals do not need tickets to ride the train. It's a good idea, however, for a service dog team to let Amtrak know ahead of time when the animal is riding a long distance train. It will be mentioned on the passenger manifest and the conductors (and sleeper attendants) will be able to plan ahead for the service dog team's "fresh air" stops.

3. Also by federal law, "vetting" of a service dog team is limited to two questions: 1. Is this a trained service dog? 2. What task is the dog trained to do for you?

3. Lots of service animals (besides my hearing dog) ride Amtrak. Last year I encountered three: a Great Dane trained to lie atop its owner during epileptic seizures, a small mutt trained to prevent its owner from cutting herself, and a guide Lab for a sightless person.

4. HarHBG is right, however. Many selfish and dishonest people fraudulently claim their pets are service animals, buying vests and "certificates" online, and ride Amtrak with them. This often results in unpleasant suspicion and unfair treatment of legitimate service dog teams.

I personally think some kind of government registration of and identification for service dogs is a good idea, provided that medical privacy is retained. Michigan has just passed a law enabling VOLUNTARY registration and ID of service dogs. That will help in many cases although it won't solve them all.


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## jebr (Feb 2, 2016)

Amtrak came up with a logical policy to allow a reasonable number of pets on a train, similar to what's allowed on the airlines? Color me impressed. If Amtrak enforces the policy as written, this seems like a good, reasonable improvement for more people to take Amtrak instead of the airlines.


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## neroden (Feb 2, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> Found some details:
> 
> In addition to the previously permitted trains, pets may be booked now for travel beginning February 16 on all long distance trains (except Auto Train), Palmetto 89/90, Carolinian (train 79 NYP-WAS only), Vermonter (WAS-SPG only) and all New Haven to Springfield trains. Pets are only permitted in coach class and may not be brought into sleepers or food service cars. An Acela pilot will begin February 20 and run through June 12. Pets may be brought onboard weekend/holiday 2200-series trains in business class only.


Truly odd list of which trains allow pets in carriers. I suppose that's a matter of staff training and they'll get around to the other trains eventually? Most of the state-sponsored corridor services still don't allow pets in carriers, and the Illinois trains still have the station restrictions which are absent from all other services.... but I suppose they will be normalized in time.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Feb 3, 2016)

HenryK said:


> Being the human part of a service dog team, I can make a few comments:
> 
> I personally think some kind of government registration of and identification for service dogs is a good idea, provided that medical privacy is retained. Michigan has just passed a law enabling VOLUNTARY registration and ID of service dogs. That will help in many cases although it won't solve them all.


 


who pays for it!???!!.. Ive got a policy to NEVER burden a disabled person .

If a cute idea puts any one of them more under pressure then whats the point.

take my plaqcard. I have to spend about 100 bucks on a cab to get to my DMV to get a card that is the best way to prove I am physically disabled ....

I cant drive . or ever own a car....... what Am I to do with this large thing hang it over my ear on my segway?

any service dog ID policy MUST be of ZERO burden to the user.

its called fail safe.....


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## fillyjonk (Feb 3, 2016)

Fleas in the sleepers?

And yes, I know, human pax can carry on some nasty stuff themselves, but here in the South, it seems that fleas are endemic for much of the year and are hard to eliminate. Shoot, I don't have pets and I still occasionally find fleas in my house. Do I carry them in on my shoes? Do they come up the pipe-chase? It's a mystery, but it's also a misery.

Also, I could definitely hear a dog barking in a sleeper with a closed door. I have heard babies crying, people cursing someone out over the phone, someone playing a loud dvd on their laptop all with their room doors closed.

I dunno. I sympathize with those who want to travel with pets but human behavior being as crappy as it is these days, I can see pets on LD trains just adding a burden to the car attendants' job and making it less pleasant for the other pax. It just takes one person with an ill-behaved animal. Or one person who thinks the rules about carriers and such shouldn't have to apply to them and their pet. And yes, there's the "put them off at the next stop" clause, but would that really happen?


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## andersone (Feb 3, 2016)

I am grateful that service animals can bring relief to those with need and welcome them. Tony however can have Fido and Fifi all he wants in his house, but not a sleeper I might be booked in tomorrow. To think someone would be that inconsiderate is despicable.

As for my pet fish Eric (apologies to the Pyrhons) she can do nicely at home without me.


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## HenryK (Feb 3, 2016)

I am sympathetic to Peter's point of view about never burdening a disabled person, being one myself, but we still have to deal with real-world problems like service dog fraud. While the burden of proof should NEVER be on the disabled person, a voluntary identification system like Michigan's might help. It just went into effect and we'll just have to see how it works out.

Meanwhile, here's a good resource for those interested in combating service-dog fraud.


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

andersone said:


> I am grateful that service animals can bring relief to those with need and welcome them. Tony however can have Fido and Fifi all he wants in his house, but not a sleeper I might be booked in tomorrow. To think someone would be that inconsiderate is despicable.
> 
> As for my pet fish Eric (apologies to the Pyrhons) she can do nicely at home without me.


Fido can ride in coach, by a seat that might be booked tomorrow, but YOU do not want Fido in a sleeper, because YOU might be booked in it tomorrow? Isn't that a bit elitist?


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

fillyjonk said:


> Fleas in the sleepers?
> 
> And yes, I know, human pax can carry on some nasty stuff themselves, but here in the South, it seems that fleas are endemic for much of the year and are hard to eliminate. Shoot, I don't have pets and I still occasionally find fleas in my house. Do I carry them in on my shoes? Do they come up the pipe-chase? It's a mystery, but it's also a misery.
> 
> ...


Li'l Fido can bring fleas into coach, why not sleepers? Are sleeper pax somehow " better" than coach pax? Same goes for barking, peeing. Pooping, etc......can happen in coach, why not in sleepers, or the SSL? Are sleeper pax special?


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## Cina (Feb 3, 2016)

I come back a year later, and people are still freaking out about pets in coach :lol: Good ol' AU.


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## niemi24s (Feb 3, 2016)

I'm with Tonys96 on this. And just to insure that no Amtrak passenger is ever discriminated against and all are given equal treatment, Amtrak simply must insure the carpets in all passenger areas are treated with cat urine. On the other hand, perhaps there's just a bit of this going on in this thread: http://www.striperkiller.com/uploads/5/5/1/3/55137563/6920140_orig.jpg


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> I'm with Tonys96 on this. And just to insure that no Amtrak passenger is ever discriminated against and all are given equal treatment, Amtrak simply must insure the carpets in all passenger areas are treated with cat urine. On the other hand, perhaps there's just a bit of this going on in this thread: http://www.striperkiller.com/uploads/5/5/1/3/55137563/6920140_orig.jpg


Or this: https://www.google.com/search?q=sarcasm+pic&client=safari&hl=en&prmd=inv&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=7d0jLnr-RlPzXM%253A%252ChhESPTSSuSYYmM%252C_%253BnXB4ASUtBU7EEM%253A%252CLGehh3pvjX978M%252C_%253BsfaS1rn7RaLeeM%253A%252CErmxXuQ6r23psM%252C_%253BRYLyH8oFnEHg2M%253A%252CFxdTuprICfLWlM%252C_%253B_8DfrIgI7fxEmM%253A%252CRz-jelCEYGjVqM%252C_%253BpTsA03Fa4882fM%253A%252Cr8OGWJCbYljaWM%252C_%253B6nyv6TKmEEZmdM%253A%252CXsAp9aF2-80sjM%252C_%253BHLszTK_au586sM%253A%252CLepGwvcyOnCnaM%252C_%253B9uxzf8bwrZfv9M%253A%252C6l_SSzjHuxi6yM%252C_%253BxaeBDYHD2T8dVM%253A%252CJ2FBwGJylDqR6M%252C_&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_grbT_NvKAhUBuYMKHVGFBfsQ7AkIMw&biw=1024&bih=672&usg=__Phf_pxsd7xX3_lseQ5XqJR9-HrE%3D#imgrc=xUrKD3-msVjAuM%3A&usg=__Phf_pxsd7xX3_lseQ5XqJR9-HrE%3D


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 3, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> niemi24s said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with Tonys96 on this. And just to insure that no Amtrak passenger is ever discriminated against and all are given equal treatment, Amtrak simply must insure the carpets in all passenger areas are treated with cat urine. On the other hand, perhaps there's just a bit of this going on in this thread: http://www.striperkiller.com/uploads/5/5/1/3/55137563/6920140_orig.jpg
> ...


Not me  I caught your sarcasm right away.


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## andersone (Feb 3, 2016)

As chairman of the Socialist Workers Party in Jackson County I am grinning from ear to ear being called an elitist. I misspoke and should have included coach as well. My apologies. But you can still keep Fido or Fifi at home unless they are a service animal. Mother taught not to disturb others with your peculiarities.


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## AmtrakLKL (Feb 3, 2016)

There are plenty of legitimate service animals on Amtrak every day. I've never had a true service animal or their handler cause any trouble. Ever. Extra minute dwell for a restroom break? Yes, and I have no problem with that.

People traveling with illegitimate service animals seem to be the ones who carry "certification" cards, wear bright "Service Animal" vests and immediately get confrontational and threaten to sue. Except for guide dogs wearing a harness, I don't think I've ever seen a true service animal wearing any certification card or vest. They are quiet, well behaved and don't get a second thought from anyone.

This is roughly a conversation I had train-side a few years ago. Small dog with an orange SERVICE ANIMAL - DO NOT PET vest.

Me: "Good afternoon, is this a service animal?"

Pax: "Duh, yes."

Me: "Ok, great. What task is the animal trained to perform?"

Pax: "YOU CAN'T ASK ME THAT! I CAN SUE YOU FOR ASKING! WHAT'S YOUR NAME? I'M REPORTING YOU!"

While this brief conversation is going on the dog is barking at anything and everything around. Needless to say in this particular instance the passenger and dog did not travel and I never heard a word from anyone.

There are also a few instances where I have turned away a small pet in carriers that are now permitted under the new rules. These passengers didn't get upset or cause a scene. They just didn't know the policy and accepted it when advised. Now they can pay $25 and bring their pet. I don't think these passengers/pets will be a problem and it opens up Amtrak to a new clientele and revenue stream.


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

andersone said:


> As chairman of the Socialist Workers Party in Jackson County I am grinning from ear to ear being called an elitist. I misspoke and should have included coach as well. My apologies. But you can still keep Fido or Fifi at home unless they are a service animal. Mother taught not to disturb others with your peculiarities.


Amtrak allows Fido in coach. What makes sleepers different?


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## OBS (Feb 3, 2016)

As a matter of fact, I was speaking with a Conductor yesterday who put a passenger and her pet dog off the train. She just couldn't understand why she couldn't have the dog sitting on the seat next to her (out of the carrier). She would put it in the carrier, only to remove it as soon as Conductor left. She eventually told the Amtrak police to get the Conductor out of her face as she was not hurting anyone. She was removed from the train at next station. Amtrak management then promptly allowed her to board the next train to continue her trip....


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## D.P. Roberts (Feb 3, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> There are plenty of legitimate service animals on Amtrak every day... People traveling with illegitimate service animals seem to be the ones who carry "certification" cards, wear bright "Service Animal" vests and immediately get confrontational and threaten to sue.


Oooh, I hate it when people say things like this! Just because a service animal is a "legitimate" pureblood with the right papers doesn't automatically make it a better service animal. Plenty of illegitimate "mutts" make fantastic service animals! Please don't judge service animals based on their ancestry! Sure, that love child of a Bull Terrier and a Shitzu may look kinda funny, but still...

I like the idea that pets will be kept out of sleepers. If the travel time is limited to 7 hours including connections, chances are that almost all of those passengers will be in coach anyway. It will probably greatly reduce the amount of cleaning Amtrak has to do, and it allows those with serious allergies somewhere they can be guaranteed to be away from pets. Sure, they'd have to pay more, but the added sleeper fare for a short trip can be reasonable, and will undoubtedly be worthwhile for those with real allergy problems. Alternately, if they can stand being in coach for at least a few minutes, they could always head down to the lounge car. I'm not happy about pets onboard, but I think this is a reasonable solution by Amtrak.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 3, 2016)

D.P. Roberts said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> > There are plenty of legitimate service animals on Amtrak every day... People traveling with illegitimate service animals seem to be the ones who carry "certification" cards, wear bright "Service Animal" vests and immediately get confrontational and threaten to sue.
> ...


I'm pretty sure he meant legitimate as in a legitimate service animal (trained to provide a service), not a purebred w/papers.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Feb 3, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> I hope they go all in on this. Not piecemeal as on some short routes. Forcing just some pax to sit in "pet cars" , while keeping others from enjoying the company of theirs and others' pets is unconscionable!
> 
> Should be allowed on ALL TRAINS, in ALL CARS, except, maybe diners ( which might be disappearing anyway ). And not just small animals that fit in carriers under the seat.....what about those of us who own Labs or German Shepherds? Why can't we take our beloved pets too? Hey, most service dogs are large breeds and they are already allowed on all trains with no restrictions.
> 
> ...


It certainly would be nice to bring our pets on board any train, BUT I think trains should consist of coaches that DO allow pets and ones that DON'T allow pets. Why? Because there may be passengers on board the train that are allergic to pets.

If there's a passenger on the train who is allergic to pets, they should ride in the car(s) that do not allow pets.

And I also think it would especially be nice if they allowed pets of all sizes on board trains. Like from teacup chihuahuas to Irish Wolfhounds!


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## Eric308 (Feb 3, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope they go all in on this. Not piecemeal as on some short routes. Forcing just some pax to sit in "pet cars" , while keeping others from enjoying the company of theirs and others' pets is unconscionable!
> ...


I agree. I often travel to Portland and stay at the Monaco Hotel downtown. They allow pets of all shapes and sizes and have a floor for pets and owners only. It's pretty cool to come down in the evening for the wine tasting and see a St. Bernard and a Mexican Hairless. (I'm not making this up, saw both last trip in June '15).


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 3, 2016)

Only allowing small pets is discrimination towards those preferring larger animals for pets.

Roy Rogers wouldn't be able to travel on Trains with Trigger and Bullet today. Lots of Trains in the Old West used to allow horses and other animals to be carried in the baggage car.

In Mexico, I rode on many passenger Trains with goats,burros,chickens,parrots,iguanas,horses,cows etc.aboard.. Never bothered me!


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## fairviewroad (Feb 3, 2016)

Official announcement was released today and is near the top of the current list of press releases:

https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1237608337144

Or, you can visit the Pet Policy page:

https://www.amtrak.com/carry-on-pet-pilot


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## rickycourtney (Feb 3, 2016)

The pets on board program is now permanent on the eastern and mid-western corridor trains that currently allow pets... and Amtrak will expand the program to trips up to 7 hours in length on long distance trains (except Auto Train, for obvious reasons) beginning Tuesday, Feb. 16, and is starting a weekend-only pilot program on Acela Express starting, Saturday, Feb. 20.

A notable exception... pets still aren't allowed on the western many of the corridor trains.

That means I can bring my dog along on a trip from Seattle on Portland on the Coast Starlight... but not on the Cascades. Not sure how that makes sense.

Oh and just for fun... enjoy a picture of my dog:


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## Peter KG6LSE (Feb 3, 2016)

rickycourtney:
I suspect it might be where the funds come from . the talgos are all to us a local system.

ODot and WDot might be the subborn rock in this case.



HenryK said:


> I am sympathetic to Peter's point of view about never burdening a disabled person, being one myself, but we still have to deal with real-world problems like service dog fraud. While the burden of proof should NEVER be on the disabled person, a voluntary identification system like Michigan's might help. It just went into effect and we'll just have to see how it works out.
> 
> Meanwhile, here's a good resource for those interested in combating service-dog fraud.




I never leave town as much as I want to as its soo much hassle to educate the mindless masses on ADA policy......

I would have loved to take my segway to LA on the CS last week... I ended up just hoofing it and I regret it ! . My knees are still in loads of pain...

I cringe at the idea of missing a train due to a un ediucated empolyee . Its not like a restrunat where I Can just go eat somwhere else.

same with service dogs. One mistake by a conductor and you have mucked up a persons day By 24H or more. Its not like the train goes every hour .

Henry . how do We the disabled drive this in to the heads of management in the transport industry.

Frankly If I see a dog on the train and it behaves better then a toddler then>

A) its a legit service dog as it behaves as one.....

B) it acts SO well then whom am I to care!.....


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Only allowing small pets is discrimination towards those preferring larger animals for pets.
> 
> Roy Rogers wouldn't be able to travel on Trains with Trigger and Bullet today. Lots of Trains in the Old West used to allow horses and other animals to be carried in the baggage car.
> 
> In Mexico, I rode on many passenger Trains with goats,burros,chickens,parrots,iguanas,horses,cows etc.aboard.. Never bothered me!


Here in Texas, there are a plethora of Mexican bus companies that move pax to and from border cities. Looks like Amtrak is striving to reach their level.


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## caravanman (Feb 3, 2016)

Although tonys96 dislikes cencorship, I also dislike what I see as racial slurs on A.U.... ?

Ed.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 3, 2016)

rickycourtney said:


> A notable exception... pets still aren't allowed on the western corridor trains.


Or on the Keystone Corridor, Empire Service, Michigan Service, Piedmont trains, MRR's, Heartland Flyer, Illini Service, etc.

So it's a lot more than just the western corridor trains that still won't allow pets.

As Peter suggested, it's probably something that needs to be negotiated with the state DOT's that fund those corridor services.

But yes, I see your point about the discrepancy between corridor trains and the LD trains that run along those routes. With the 7-hour limit, it would

seem to make more sense to allow pets on trains that don't even take 7 hours end-to-end than it does to allow pets on LD trains.


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

caravanman said:


> Although tonys96 dislikes cencorship, I also dislike what I see as racial slurs on A.U.... ?
> 
> Ed.


If the word "Mexican" is a racial slur to you, I apologize to you. However in Texas, there are millions of people who wear it proudly as their heritage. I was engaged to one, and have posted her picture here as part of one of our trip reports.


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## AmtrakLKL (Feb 3, 2016)

D.P. Roberts said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> > There are plenty of legitimate service animals on Amtrak every day... People traveling with illegitimate service animals seem to be the ones who carry "certification" cards, wear bright "Service Animal" vests and immediately get confrontational and threaten to sue.
> ...


I can't decide if your response is in jest not not. In case not, I'll clarify by saying I don't care what the breed is. A legitimate service animal is one actually trained to perform a specific task vs. just being declared a service animal for the convenience of skirting the rules to bring the animal onboard.

Even with the new pet policy, I'm sure we'll still have issues with non-service animals being declared service animals because they are too big.


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## Hal (Feb 3, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakLKL said:
> ...


Plus the passengers who will want to call it a service animal to avoid the fee or to avoid having it be in a carrier.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Hal (Feb 3, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> > Although tonys96 dislikes cencorship, I also dislike what I see as racial slurs on A.U.... ?
> ...


Your post was demeaning of their heritage.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Hal (Feb 3, 2016)

Peter KG6LSE said:


> rickycourtney:
> 
> I suspect it might be where the funds come from . the talgos are all to us a local system.
> 
> ...


Conductors are not going to question a dog that has been declared a service dog unless it does something disruptive. Like the so called one that bit an LSA and another that was growling at passengers.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## caravanman (Feb 3, 2016)

"Here in Texas, there are a plethora of Mexican bus companies that move pax to and from border cities. Looks like Amtrak is striving to reach their level. "

I don't see the word Mexican as a slur... I read the tone of the post as infering that Mexicans were happy with a lower level of service. I apoligise if I misread that intent.

Ed.


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

Hal said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > caravanman said:
> ...


I will not argue that you feel that way. But will ask you to please tell me what makes you feel that. Perhaps it can be a learning experience for me. The post I quoted spoke of an experience in Mexico, while I referred to the many bus services that cater to Mexican people moving pax between major cities and border cities. Demeaning? How?


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## tonys96 (Feb 3, 2016)

caravanman said:


> "Here in Texas, there are a plethora of Mexican bus companies that move pax to and from border cities. Looks like Amtrak is striving to reach their level. "
> 
> I don't see the word Mexican as a slur... I read the tone of the post as infering that Mexicans were happy with a lower level of service. I apoligise if I misread that intent.
> 
> Ed.


Apology accepted. I may have been thinking Amtrak was striving to reach the high-level of service afforded by some of these carriers, which are, IMHO, far better than "the dog"....


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## me_little_me (Feb 3, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> I hope they go all in on this. Not piecemeal as on some short routes. Forcing just some pax to sit in "pet cars" , while keeping others from enjoying the company of theirs and others' pets is unconscionable!
> 
> Should be allowed on ALL TRAINS, in ALL CARS, except, maybe diners ( which might be disappearing anyway ). And not just small animals that fit in carriers under the seat.....what about those of us who own Labs or German Shepherds? Why can't we take our beloved pets too? Hey, most service dogs are large breeds and they are already allowed on all trains with no restrictions.
> 
> ...


You forgot three things:

The right of the alternate being (it is improper to call them pets as that implies one species can "own" another) to enjoy the outdoors by sitting with their heads out the window.

The right of such beings to enjoy the scenery from the upper lounge area of the Superliners.

The right of diners to let them lick from the plates since the diner has already paid for the food either directly or embedded in a sleeper ticket.


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## caravanman (Feb 3, 2016)

I assume that some of the above posts are "tongue in cheek"... If not... Gosh!

Ed.


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## PVD (Feb 3, 2016)

Discrimination is a term bandied about whenever someone feels put out because sometimes someone else gets to make the rules.

As long as you are not part of a "protected class" under some statute, there is usually nothing (legally) wrong with denying you passage, service, rental, or just about anything else. Morality and legality are not the same, neither are equality and fairness.


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## niemi24s (Feb 3, 2016)

PVD said:


> Discrimination is a term bandied about whenever someone feels put out because sometimes someone else gets to make the rules.


But (as I attempted to point out in a now-exorcised post) the term _discrimination _has other meanings, and benign ones too. Such as differentiating between two different things, telling the difference. It used be a compliment to say that that someone had discriminating tastes - they could tell a good wine from the swill. Many radios even have a discriminator circuit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster%E2%80%93Seeley_discriminator ...so the term can even apply to inanimate objects. Nowadays, however, the term almost automatically conjures up its negative connotation. But in the benign connotation, we all discriminate: It's how we learn what's dangerous and can do us harm (red hot stove burner) and what's OK (a butterfly). English is a terribly complex language. The next time you're in the dining car across from someone speaking broken English - ask them.


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## andersone (Feb 4, 2016)

I may have my tongue in my cheek, but I also don't want Fido or Fifi to have free reign. Perhaps Tony has watched Planet of the Apes too many times? If they didn't let him travel it would be discrimination,,, in my humble opinion the term does not apply to non humans. Discrimination is not on merit but some perceived unreality. When pets get treated like humans, we have gone to far.


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## PVD (Feb 4, 2016)

Absolutely coreect as to English and its difficulties especially multiple meanings of words. I don't think that changes the validity of my premise, it is (usually) easy which meaning someone is using for discrinination based on context.


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## neroden (Feb 4, 2016)

Dogs should certainly not have free reign!

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/dog-kings-crown-17713345.jpg

Free rein is probably bad too, but I really don't want to be ruled by crowned canine overlords. 

(While we're nitpicking people's English.)


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## PVD (Feb 4, 2016)

And to think, I'm staying inside this morning because it's raining, and my umbrella is down in the car!


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## tonys96 (Feb 4, 2016)

andersone said:


> I may have my tongue in my cheek, but I also don't want Fido or Fifi to have free reign. Perhaps Tony has watched Planet of the Apes too many times? If they didn't let him travel it would be discrimination,,, in my humble opinion the term does not apply to non humans. Discrimination is not on merit but some perceived unreality. When pets get treated like humans, we have gone to far.


Here is my point.....

I do not at all agree with the decision to let pax take their pets on LD trains. This has way too many possible downsides for other pax that IMHO do not merit the few upsides. A single rider with a pet in coach could, on a full train, cause a rider with an allergy, as someone above said they have, to sit next to the pet. Or behind. Or in front of. Or there is a real likelihood of an " aroma" emanating from a pet carrier after seven or more hours.(the seven hour limit refers to scheduled travel time, not actual travel time, and there are often delays). There is also the yapping, both day and night. Imagine seating a dog and a cat by each other.......

But, that is now a done deal. Pets are allowed in all coaches. If you have pet allergies, you may not even find a car without a pet in it....

Unless you spring the extra bux for a sleeper!

There lies the rub......

My problem is with limiting it to coach. Why do coach pax only get the opportunity to "enjoy" this new rule? If it is such a great deal, why is it restricted from sleeper class? Great deals should be available to all pax, right? Conversely, if it might be troublesome for some, why is it allowed only in coach? Are coach pax supposed to accept a less than desirable trip solely due to being in coach?

I truly believe it should be train wide or not at all.


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## districtRich (Feb 4, 2016)

I would guess that they are limiting it to coach because if they allow pets in the sleeper cars then as soon as someone closes the door to their room you know many pet owners are going to let their pet out of the carrier and let it climb all over the seats and beds in the roomettes and bedrooms, and none of the train staff is able to see what's going on unlike in coach.


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## PVD (Feb 4, 2016)

Like it or not, we do live in a country partially divided on economic lines. People who can or will spend more generally get more. One of the reasons for restricting to coach is the premise that they must remain in their carrier, and must remain under ​ your seat. That would be almost impossible to enforce in a sleeper. Allergies are a legit concern, but there are lots of folks with peanut allergies, and I haven't ben forced to surrender my Snickers Bar.


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## tonys96 (Feb 4, 2016)

PVD said:


> Like it or not, we do live in a country partially divided on economic lines. People who can or will spend more generally get more.


In this case, aren't they actually getting less? Sleeper pax do not get the opportunity to take pets, while those paying less for transport do......Sleeper pax must forfeit the opportunity to take Fido, in order to pay more to lie flat........


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## tonys96 (Feb 4, 2016)

In fact, I am absolutely OK with the policy if it would restrict the pets to a single car, and allow pax who do not want to travel with animals for whatever reason (allergies, want to sleep without yapping, whatever) to travel in a car without pets in it. A " pet car", and the rest of the train would be " pet free".

But this policy of all coach cars allowing pets willy-nilly in all coach cars, and ONLY in coach, just doesn't seem right, to me. Again, IMHO, if it is ALL coach cars, it ought to be ALL CARS..........sleepers included.


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## PVD (Feb 4, 2016)

Since the number of allowable pet reservations (per train) is small, there is no reason not to designate a specific car other than the current practice of putting passengers to specific destinations into specific cars. Again, since we are talking about a very small number of passengers is small, this would be a good reason to ignore that and use one car.


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## niemi24s (Feb 4, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> I do not at all agree with the decision to let pax take their pets on LD trains.


<Whew!> Thanx for finally finally saying so. Your previous posts you had me convinced you were a fringe lunatic pet advocate. A bit like the cruise ship passenger I read about who would bring a little Chihuahua into the formal dining room in a baby stroller and feed the little darling table scraps - much to the disgust of her human dining companions.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 4, 2016)

caravanman said:


> Although tonys96 dislikes cencorship, I also dislike what I see as racial slurs on A.U.... ?


Calling something or someone "Mexican" isn't a slur in Texas. Where I live people of Mexican heritage represent the vast majority of citizens, both documented and undocumented, and don't generally see such heritage as negative or shameful.



caravanman said:


> > Here in Texas, there are a plethora of Mexican bus companies that move pax to and from border cities. Looks like Amtrak is striving to reach their level.
> 
> 
> I don't see the word Mexican as a slur... I read the tone of the post as infering that Mexicans were happy with a lower level of service. I apoligise if I misread that intent.


I wouldn't say they're happy with it. The Mexican bus companies are notoriously dismal spendthrifts that run poorly managed services on improperly maintained hardware between dilapidated stations with sloppy drivers. I think the main crux of the point was that Mexican bus companies represent the bottom of the market, not because they're owned/managed/operated/patronized by Mexicans but simply because of the market to which they cater and their stingy fly-by-night attitude toward safety and maintenance.


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## Eric308 (Feb 4, 2016)

niemi24s said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > I do not at all agree with the decision to let pax take their pets on LD trains.
> ...


Glad it wasn't a big Chihuahua! What do you have against Mexican dogs? Chihuahua is capitalized! Estoy bromeando!


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## HenryK (Feb 4, 2016)

But, Neroden, CATS have free REIGN in their households. Ask any victim "owner" of a cat.


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## HenryK (Feb 4, 2016)

Why is it that Europeans take their (almost invariably well-behaved) pets everywhere, on public transport and in restaurants, and there is no barking and caterwauling from fellow Europeans about it? What is it about us Americans, anyway?


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 4, 2016)

HenryK said:


> Why is it that Europeans take their (almost invariably well-behaved) pets everywhere, on public transport and in restaurants, and there is no barking and caterwauling from fellow Europeans about it? What is it about us Americans, anyway?


I think you almost invariably answered your own question parenthetically.


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## niemi24s (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm thinking there's always the grim possibility someone will show up with a dog like Kyle from the movie _Despicable Me:_




As far as "What is it about us Americans, anyway?" I think it's that we fritter away far too much time on frivolous pursuits such as participating in various internet forums - with the exception of this one, of course.


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## HenryK (Feb 4, 2016)

Devil's Advocate seems to have a problem with me. Niemi24s, you are absolutely right.


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## fillyjonk (Feb 4, 2016)

OBS said:


> As a matter of fact, I was speaking with a Conductor yesterday who put a passenger and her pet dog off the train. She just couldn't understand why she couldn't have the dog sitting on the seat next to her (out of the carrier). She would put it in the carrier, only to remove it as soon as Conductor left. She eventually told the Amtrak police to get the Conductor out of her face as she was not hurting anyone. She was removed from the train at next station. Amtrak management then promptly allowed her to board the next train to continue her trip....


THIS. This kind of behavior - the "I'm special, the rules don't apply to me, I will only give the appearance of following them when I am observed" - that makes me so opposed to pets on every car of the train. I know people too well.

A special "pet car," where people know there will be pets and are fine with that, fine. Pets in every car? No. I would not want to occupy a roomette after someone's long-haired cat had been in there; I have cat allergies and would be miserable. Could I ask Amtrak for a refund of part of my fare because I'm hived up and sneezing? No, probably not.


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## tonys96 (Feb 4, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> > Although tonys96 dislikes cencorship, I also dislike what I see as racial slurs on A.U.... ?
> ...


Being a Texan, you are aware of the many bus companies that take folks from population centers to border cities. A huge number are as you described. But there are some which are quite luxurious, albeit a small number.


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## tonys96 (Feb 4, 2016)

fillyjonk said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> > As a matter of fact, I was speaking with a Conductor yesterday who put a passenger and her pet dog off the train. She just couldn't understand why she couldn't have the dog sitting on the seat next to her (out of the carrier). She would put it in the carrier, only to remove it as soon as Conductor left. She eventually told the Amtrak police to get the Conductor out of her face as she was not hurting anyone. She was removed from the train at next station. Amtrak management then promptly allowed her to board the next train to continue her trip....
> ...


What about the coach passenger with the same allergy who is assigned the seat where a passenger and his/her cat just sat a few minutes ago?


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## Mystic River Dragon (Feb 4, 2016)

I agree with fillyjonk--a special pet car would be fine.

I love animals, especially dogs, but allergies are a very serious problem. I am highly allergic to cats. Even the pet carrier wouldn't help. When I visit friends who have cats, I cannot be in their homes for more than half an hour before my eyes are red and itchy, and I start coughing (and no, I do not pet the cats--the allergy is there anyway).


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 4, 2016)

HenryK said:


> Devil's Advocate seems to have a problem with me. Niemi24s, you are absolutely right.


I thought my answer was a cleaver if silly response rather than an intentional rebuke. Point being well trained healthy animals with responsible owners are generally far less of a problem than the sort of 'my cherished pet can do no wrong' attitude we're more familiar with over here. Meh, you win some you lose some.


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## Trainmans daughter (Feb 4, 2016)

My dog would just sit on my lap.


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## HenryK (Feb 4, 2016)

Trainman's Daughter, what a sneaky way to finesse the Amtrak requirement that pets cannot sit on the seat! :giggle:

Yes, I know the pet must be in a carrier, and that the whole caboodle cannot weigh more than 20 pounds.


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## I always rode the Southern (Feb 4, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> HenryK said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate seems to have a problem with me. Niemi24s, you are absolutely right.
> ...


I love puns and thought it was clever, and silly as in funny, not meant to be a dig at the poster.

Parenthetically | Define Parenthetically at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/parenthetically
Dictionary.com
of, pertaining to, noting, or of the nature of a parenthesis


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## me_little_me (Feb 4, 2016)

HenryK said:


> Why is it that Europeans take their (almost invariably well-behaved) pets everywhere, on public transport and in restaurants, and there is no barking and caterwauling from fellow Europeans about it? What is it about us Americans, anyway?


The WELL BEHAVED Europeans take their pets everywhere. The non-well-behaved Americans demand the right to do what they want no matter what the rules. There are too many non-well-behaved Americans and many well-behaved Europeans. In my travels, I have never seen non-well-behaved European pet owners although I have seen the results on the ground at times but have avoided stepping in them.

It has nothing to do with the behavior of the pets.


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## MattW (Feb 4, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> andersone said:
> 
> 
> > I may have my tongue in my cheek, but I also don't want Fido or Fifi to have free reign. Perhaps Tony has watched Planet of the Apes too many times? If they didn't let him travel it would be discrimination,,, in my humble opinion the term does not apply to non humans. Discrimination is not on merit but some perceived unreality. When pets get treated like humans, we have gone to far.
> ...


The airlines have allowed pets for many years with no issues, why is Amtrak any different?


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## HenryK (Feb 4, 2016)

I feel that I must share the following vital knowledge with all members of Amtrak Unlimited:

Theoretically, one could take a pet from Chicago to Emeryville on the Zephyr despite the 7-hour limitation. All one has to do is get off the train and stay overnight in Ottumwa, Holdrege, Fraser, Grand Junction, Elko and Truckee, and buy a new ticket every day.

I said theoretically. Fraser, Grand Junction and Truckee might be interesting places to spend time, but I don't know about the others.

You are all welcome.


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## tonys96 (Feb 4, 2016)

MattW said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> > andersone said:
> ...


And they are allowed in first class.............so why not sleepers?


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## jebr (Feb 4, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > tonys96 said:
> ...


My best guess is that they can't monitor a sleeper room to ensure a pet isn't taken out of its carrier. If it's in the carrier properly, it shouldn't be a disturbance, but if it's out of the carrier the hair, dander, etc. is not contained and could cause issues (especially for cleaning and the like.)


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## PVD (Feb 4, 2016)

While they are allowed by most airlines in First Class, they ususally have a very tight limit of one or two in the F/C cabin. They are not private rooms like a sleeper. The issue of being certain the passenger is keeping the pet in the carrier and under the seat makes a coach only rule practical. It is no different than the airlines requiring the pet to stay in their carrier and under the seat. On airlines it is the seat in front of you, on a train, under your own seat. People should stop trying to invent rights and avoid personal responsibility, society would benefit greatly. People have no more of a right to a total pet free environment than pet owners have a right to transport animals that can't be kept secured. No carrier wants to be responsible for passenger encounters with uncaged animals. Take a Benadryl or ship a large animal as cargo. Life goes on for everyone else.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 4, 2016)

My pet python is filing a lawsuit to occupy the train. He's not known to make a lot of noise, molts at one time for easy clean-up, doesn't leave dander and doesn't take up much space. He agrees with Tonys96. When I told him he had to stay home while cats could travel, he hissed that this was a dessssssspicable act.

We think he should be allowed on the train. He always stays in his cage and likes attention. Just ignore the sign on his cage that says "my pet squeezed your pet to death and swallowed it whole."


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## PVD (Feb 5, 2016)

If the snake fit in an appropriate sized carrier and stayed under your seat, it would not bother me one bit. They are misunderstood, suffer from bad public relations (they never really recovered from that Garden of Eden thing), but truthfully most of the objections to pets should not apply to them.


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## andersone (Feb 5, 2016)

Don't miss the night in Ottumwa, an Iowa hotspot. A visit to the Airpower Museum and a round at the Cedar Creek links Your lodging options are awesome - Lexington, Days, American Quality Inns await as well as the Super 8 or the luxurious, downtown Hotel Ottumwa. Dining opportunities abound . You can have Canteen Lunch in the Alley go to the Bubba Q or the Tequila Grill, Jade Palace or Saints Pub and Patios, Courtside Bar and Grill, Little Bake Shop, Riverside or Second Street Café;s. Juanita's Restaurant of the Appanoose Brewing Company or my fav - The Recovery Room.


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## neroden (Feb 5, 2016)

I actually have the same view about pet reptiles. They're usually *extremely* well-behaved and I'd have no problem having them in the train. (The sad reason for how well-behaved they are: if you aren't a very responsible pet owner, your pet reptile tends to die. Quickly. So the only people who have pet reptiles for long periods are very responsible.)


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Feb 5, 2016)

PVD said:


> While they are allowed by most airlines in First Class, they ususally have a very tight limit of one or two in the F/C cabin.


Maybe this varies by airline, and over the years, but I thought if you brought your dog with you in First Class (the Rich and Famous Snob class?), you had to buy it a full-fare first class ticket. The airlines saw the dollars more than the animal. And if you could afford it, the dog probably is well pampered too (baths, manicures, etc).


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## PVD (Feb 5, 2016)

Over the years first class has lost a great deal of its luster on the domestic side,. Lots of upgrade/high mileage elite business travelers. The real rich often fly private.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 5, 2016)

HenryK said:


> I feel that I must share the following vital knowledge with all members of Amtrak Unlimited:
> 
> Theoretically, one could take a pet from Chicago to Emeryville on the Zephyr despite the 7-hour limitation. All one has to do is get off the train and stay overnight in Ottumwa, Holdrege, Fraser, Grand Junction, Elko and Truckee, and buy a new ticket every day.
> 
> ...


Ha ha. Nicely done.

I suspect there are "better" ways to game the system that pet lovers will figure out. Such as booking the pet under Traveler A for the first 7 hours, then booking the pet under Traveler B for the next 7 hours, etc. (For parties of two or more)

You would probably need to figure out where the crew change points are and make that the place where you break up the tickets. Of course, not all on board staff switches out at the crew point, but it's the beginning of a strategy.

Not saying it would work. But I'm guessing someone, somewhere is dreaming up that sort of plan.


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## HenryK (Feb 5, 2016)

I wonder what would happen if someone was going, say, from Chicago to Hastings and the train was delayed by three or four hours en route, stretching the 7 hour limit into 10 or 11 hours. Would Fido be dead on the law after seven hours? Would a cab have to be dispatched at oh-Godawful-thirty to a crossing at Nowheresville to collect the pooch?


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## fairviewroad (Feb 5, 2016)

HenryK said:


> I wonder what would happen if someone was going, say, from Chicago to Hastings and the train was delayed by three or four hours en route, stretching the 7 hour limit into 10 or 11 hours. Would Fido be dead on the law after seven hours? Would a cab have to be dispatched at oh-Godawful-thirty to a crossing at Nowheresville to collect the pooch?


That's a pretty amusing image.

My first thought was, well, the policy states that pets can't be _booked_ on trips longer than 7 hours. But actually, the policy says "Maximum length of travel *on the train* will be seven hours." [bolding mine]

That would _suggest_ that after 7 hours, Fido has to go bye-bye regardless of whether the train has made it to the intended destination. But in reality, I'm certain pets will be able to stay on the train to their ticketed destination even in the case of a severe delay.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 5, 2016)

Maybe the pet would be allowed to stay aboard after 7 Hours and the owner would be kicked off for terminal stupidity!

I love animals but they belong @ home if a pet, or out in the wild, not on public transportation or in retail establishments! YMMV


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 5, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> HenryK said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what would happen if someone was going, say, from Chicago to Hastings and the train was delayed by three or four hours en route, stretching the 7 hour limit into 10 or 11 hours. Would Fido be dead on the law after seven hours? Would a cab have to be dispatched at oh-Godawful-thirty to a crossing at Nowheresville to collect the pooch?
> ...


We may chuckle with casual certainty but Amtrak has kicked children off the train in the middle of the night because they were discovered to be breaking the letter of the rules. Not to mention that pets are being forced on Amtrak by Congress and are not something Amtrak wanted anything to do with originally. Seems like if you were on the wrong train at the wrong time the rules as currently written could result in a rather unfortunate experience.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Feb 5, 2016)

There are probably better laws and advocacy groups for animals/pets/dogs, than for children. So, Amtrak might find it "easier" to toss a kid off the train, than a dog.

I am going to venture a guess that the 7 hours is the max before Amtrak would be legally required to do something. I know that for airlines, there are laws that require the airline to offer the animal water and food every so many hours.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 5, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> We may chuckle with casual certainty but Amtrak has kicked children off the train in the middle of the night because they were discovered to be breaking the letter of the rules. Not to mention that pets are being forced on Amtrak by Congress and are not something Amtrak wanted anything to do with originally. Seems like if you were on the wrong train at the wrong time the rules as currently written could result in a rather unfortunate experience.


I see your point, but there's an obvious difference between these two scenarios. Namely, the children were breaking the rules the moment they stepped on the train. The pets are legal until the point that Amtrak's inability to run its trains on time renders them "illegal."

[Note: I'm not defending the kicking of children off of trains.]


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## HenryK (Feb 5, 2016)

Please clue me in on the cases in which children were kicked off Amtrak trains. I vaguely remember one but not others.

(Ten minutes later.) Seems to be ONE case. Doubt that there's a trend.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 6, 2016)

I have to do this since no one else will:







Is Perry Farrell allowed on the train? :giggle:


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## dlagrua (Feb 6, 2016)

Before we can be in favor of allowing pets on all Amtrak routes, we need to understand the difference between a max 6 hr airline trip and a long distance Amtrak trip that can last three days. Dogs must be walked that sometimes takes 15 minutes or more. Cats are easier to transport if you take food and a portable litter box but if they are in a roomette or bedroom the doors often swing wide open due to a lack of a outside lock. I can see small pets in carriers being allowed on a few hour trip but not on an overnight train trip.


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## jebr (Feb 6, 2016)

That's why Amtrak is only allowing them on trips of seven hours or less.


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## HenryK (Feb 6, 2016)

Service animals are allowed on overnight train trips and they do fine. No reason to expect that pets won't. Quite possibly Amtrak is going into the water slowly and carefully with that 7-hour rule to see what happens before they allow pets to swim out to the raft. (I know this is a weird metaphor but it's the best I can do tonight.)


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 7, 2016)

HenryK said:


> Service animals are allowed on overnight train trips and they do fine. No reason to expect that pets won't.


There's no reason to expect that random pets of nearly unlimited health levels and demeanors will behave differently than well trained working age service animals? In my experience untrained pets often struggle to maintain their composure in public and their owners often struggle to handle pet related issues calmly and amicably. Not to mention that it's probably unfair to the pet to keep it stuffed in a carrier all that time, which is _not_ a requirement for trained service animals.


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## PVD (Feb 7, 2016)

For many animals it's probably also unfair to pick them up, stuff them in a carrier, take them out of an environment they are comfortable with, and force them to travel. Like people, many animals don't travel well, they just have different ways to express it. Sadly, pets are usually looked at by their owners with their viewpoint in mind, not the animals'. I'm happier because I can travel, my dog/cat can come with me, who cares about the trauma it has to endure.


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## HenryK (Feb 7, 2016)

I think that to expect a random pet always to behave differently from service animals not only generalizes from the particular ("in my experience"—sadly, I do the same thing) but also begs the question. Many pets are well behaved; many are not, just as humans are. Conductors have the power to put both species off the train if there is a troublesome incident. Personally, I think that within a couple of years of experience Amtrak will relax the rules, we will catch up to Europe's pet friendliness, and this debate will be long forgotten.


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## HenryK (Feb 10, 2016)

Learned some interesting stuff today.

1. Except for Illinois regional trains, no coaches will be designated as pet cars. Anyone carrying a pet in the proper crate can sit in any coach (not business class, food service cars or sleepers). Amtrak says that more allergens are carried on the clothes of other passengers than are carried by pets being transported.

This puts paid to my idea that the last car on every LD train would be a pet coach.

2. If a train is so late that a pet exceeds the seven-hour limit, the pet can stay aboard until the ticketed destination and the owner can make arrangements with the conductor for extra time to walk the animal at the next station stop.


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## Ted Bell (Feb 11, 2016)

neroden said:


> Dogs should certainly not have free reign!
> 
> http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/dog-kings-crown-17713345.jpg
> 
> ...


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## Ted Bell (Feb 11, 2016)

Good grammar is very cool. Excellent post.


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## DCAKen (Feb 12, 2016)

I received a survey yesterday from Amtrak on my most recent trip on the NEC. About half the survey was questions about pets on trains...whether I had a pet, if I would take one on a train, any concerns about pets on trains, etc.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Feb 17, 2016)

Why is it that Amtrak has a "maximum weight" of pets with pet carriers? That would mean you can't carry large dogs on the train like Labs, German Shepherds, Great Danes, etc.

I personally think it wouldn't sound fair to the passengers that own larger dogs compared to the passengers that have smaller dogs.


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## CCC1007 (Feb 17, 2016)

I think it is that they can feel more like an airline.


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## mjaynes288 (Feb 17, 2016)

I hope this will make the dog situation on the Coast Starlight better but I do not hold much hope. I just had a service dog wash out after 6 months of work. We took 3 round trips from Oregon to California. On our last trip an unleashed, unmarked "service dog" attacked my dog at Klamath Falls. The Jack Russel charged us from 20 feet away, ran up and tried to eat my Labrador's face. My dog was screaming and trying to jump high to avoid injury. The other owner was able to call his dog away after a minute. After I checked my dog over for injuries and he had scratches near his eye. I wanted that dog off the train. I had to wait for half an hour in the freezing weather for the conductor and station agent to come see me. They told me to call USA-RAIL. USA-RAIL told me the conductor had to call it in. The conductor wanted nothing to do with it (possibly because we were waiting for a relief crew) and the station agent brokered a deal that the guy would keep his aggressive dog on leash and continue on to Portland. I gave up. At the next fresh air stop I looked out the window of the SSL to see the dog 20 foot flexi fully extended on a crowded platform tripping people and generally being out of control. I called customer relations after I got home and was told there wasn't much they could do because a report wasn't filed.

After my dog washed out I went to visit my parents in California. I arrived back in Oregon yesterday. A Chihuahua "Service Dog" got on at the same time I did. My father accompanied me to the station with my 10 year old retired Service Dog, Sunny. Sunny was on his best behavior trying to convince me he could still work. The Chihuahua lost its mind when the train approached. After the train stopped he redirected to Sunny. It was barking and lunging as the coach attendant gave her a seat assignment. After I got on I was told to put my walker in the accessible seating area. The Chi was running around dragging its leash. When I went to leave I had to body block the dog from escaping.

I am afraid to take Amtrak when I get another Service Dog.


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## andersone (Feb 17, 2016)

my condolences - such a sad tale,, and you wonder why I worry about non service animals? Perhaps I need to start a Keep Fifi and Fido at home campaign,,,,,,,


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 17, 2016)

andersone said:


> my condolences - such a sad tale,, and you wonder why I worry about non service animals? Perhaps I need to start a Keep Fifi and Fido at home campaign,,,,,,,


Like!


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## Matthew1551 (Feb 17, 2016)

andersone said:


> my condolences - such a sad tale,, and you wonder why I worry about non service animals? Perhaps I need to start a Keep Fifi and Fido at home campaign,,,,,,,


Sure...


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## Railroad Bill (Feb 17, 2016)

andersone said:


> my condolences - such a sad tale,, and you wonder why I worry about non service animals? Perhaps I need to start a Keep Fifi and Fido at home campaign,,,,,,,


I would agree although in this case (assuming all the facts here are valid) the conductor did not do his/her job and remove the offending non service animal and report the incident to Amtrak.

Of course, if this had happened to my animal I probably would have left the offending animal laying on the platform along with his owner. (I am very protective of my cat) :angry:


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## Matthew1551 (Feb 17, 2016)

Railroad Bill said:


> andersone said:
> 
> 
> > my condolences - such a sad tale,, and you wonder why I worry about non service animals? Perhaps I need to start a Keep Fifi and Fido at home campaign,,,,,,,
> ...


I agree, and it sort of baffles me why they didn't take care of the situation, especially when it could have escalated to a potentially deadly situation.


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## tonys96 (Feb 17, 2016)

andersone said:


> my condolences - such a sad tale,, and you wonder why I worry about non service animals? Perhaps I need to start a Keep Fifi and Fido at home campaign,,,,,,,


Good luck.


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## chakk (Feb 17, 2016)

Owners never recognize that THEIR dog is the problem. It took a county order, a hearing, and a threatened eviction to get the owner of a "rescue dog" in our condo complex to remove the dog permanently from the property after it pinned an elderly resident against the wall in a laundry room, jumped the neck of the resident manager, and bit a guest from another unit on the walkway.


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## Ted Bell (Feb 18, 2016)

What does "washed out" mean?


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 18, 2016)

Ted Bell said:


> What does "washed out" mean?


Failed the "Test" to become a service dog.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 23, 2016)

rickycourtney said:


> That means I can bring my dog along on a trip from Seattle on Portland on the Coast Starlight... but not on the Cascades. Not sure how that makes sense.


Starting March 7th, that will no longer be an issue.



> OLYMPIA – Beginning March 7, small dogs and cats can join their owners on Amtrak Cascades trains for their next adventure.


The policy appears to mirror the national policy with the notable addition that pets will not be allowed on trains to/from Canada. [Amtrak's other two services to Canada do not currently allow pets anywhere on the route, so this is the first time that border-crossing is relevant.]

The policy also repeats the 7-hour rule, even though [once you factor out Canadian portion] there is no Cascades train that is scheduled to take more than 7 hours from endpoint to endpoint. And since per Amtrak's policy, pets are not allowed on Thruway bus connections, the 7-hour limit is basically irrelevant unless you force a train-to-train connection in SEA or PDX. But the pet restriction would be easily and legally circumvented in that case by booking the two legs separately.


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## PVD (Feb 23, 2016)

While booking 2 legs separately may get around the 7 hour rule, it may well result in a much higher fare. The pet fee would be paid twice, and the fares for the individual legs are usually greater than a single full trip.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 23, 2016)

PVD said:


> While booking 2 legs separately may get around the 7 hour rule, it may well result in a much higher fare. The pet fee would be paid twice, and the fares for the individual legs are usually greater than a single full trip.


This former is definitely true, but the latter generally isn't the case on the Cascades.

At any rate, since there are no pet-eligible trains on the Cascades that are longer than 7 hours, it's largely irrelevant. The only time it would come into play is if someone was attempting to travel between a point north of Seattle and a point south of Portland. There are no trains that run all the way through from north of SEA to south of PDX. Typically this type of itinerary is accomplished with the help of a Thruway bus on either end. Since pets aren't allowed on Thruway buses, then taking your pet from, say, Bellingham to Eugene would require two train legs that would add up to more than 7 hours once you factor in the layover in either SEA or PDX. But ODOT and WSDOT's figures show that extremely few passengers travel between locations north of SEA and south of PDX. So splitting up the itinerary and thus incurring an additional pet fee would seem to affect a very, very small number of passengers. That's why I said the 7-hour rule is largely irrelevant on the Cascades.


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## John Bredin (Feb 23, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> There are no trains that run all the way through from north of SEA to south of PDX. [snip]
> 
> But ODOT and WSDOT's figures show that extremely few passengers travel between locations north of SEA and south of PDX.


Nothing to do with pets, but I wonder if ODOT/WSDOT have confused cause and effect here. :huh: :giggle:


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## tonys96 (Feb 23, 2016)

Still wonder why my Great Dane cannot ride with me in a sleeper, even if he has a full fare ticket......; )


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 23, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> Still wonder why my Great Dane cannot ride with me in a sleeper, even if he has a full fare ticket......; )


And have the Daily Special in tbe Diner, Alpo!


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## Manny T (Feb 23, 2016)

My understanding is that the pet rule was instituted when a Congressman was miffed that he couldn't board an Amtrak train with his dog. Hence I conclude the following:

The Congressman never travels more than 7 hours on Amtrak, he always sits in coach, and his dog weighs under 20 pounds.

Any attempt to find logic or consistency in the rules is pointless.

My question: If there are only going to be 5 pets per train, why can't they put them all in the same car?


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## KauaiJohn (Feb 23, 2016)

The way I read it the rule only allows purse dogs. Any real dog is over the size limit,


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## Jason Richards (Aug 15, 2019)

July 1st, I accepted a job along California's northern coast (gorgeous this time of year,) about 300 miles northwest of the impoverished Central Valley that my cat & I called home. 
Next 24 hours, several Amtrak CSRs provided different answers on whether my cat could travel, why or why not. Finally, a floor manager issued my ticket, including the $25 fee, (I'd have bought the cat a seat,) and we looked forward to our July 4th trip.
Alas, a 2nd floor manager cancelled my ticket day of travel, explaining, "he never should have issued it, since part of the route is by bus." When asked why the that matters, she claimed, "it's just our policy."
This changed to, "station managers decide," then, "maybe it's conductors." She offered no help on who could verify any of this, or how to contact conductors directly. She gave a wrong # for the Martinez station after 10-minutes on hold, and took a half-hour to process my refund.
Six regional transit lines, plus a rideshare to fill a 60-mile gap got us to our new home.
I've since learned the Thruway busses she mentioned usually run twice daily, empty or near empty.
Amtrak happily pockets 1.5 B per year in subsidies, ignores the taxpayers who provide it, and also ignores the 2015 pet travel mandate.
l sincerely hope the next Congress cuts Amtrak funding completely.


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## ehbowen (Aug 15, 2019)

Jason Richards said:


> l sincerely hope the next Congress cuts Amtrak funding completely.


Be careful what you ask for....


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## PVD (Aug 15, 2019)

Nothing in the Congressional Mandate obligates contract carriers (like Greyhound) to change their policies. Idon't see anything in the Amtrak policy that is in conflict with the mandate.


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## Jason Richards (Aug 15, 2019)

,I didn't say Greyhound needed to comply. Greyhound is a private company, what they do is their prerogative.


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## PVD (Aug 15, 2019)

Not entirely, since they are subject to many laws and rules such as the ADA. It was suggested that part of the reason for denying pet carriage was that part of the trip was on the bus. I don't see anything that suggests that Amtrak is violating what Congress required.


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## jis (Aug 15, 2019)

In case someone is interested, the actual Amtrak Pet Policy can be found here:

https://www.amtrak.com/pets

Since a Thruway Bus was involved clearly a Pet Ticket should not have been issued. This then goes back to our other pet peeve of Amtrak Agents not being well trained and playing fast and loose when they don't know the rules for sure.

Anyway, here are the restrictions beyond the 7 hour restriction copied verbatim from that page:


> Acela on weekends and holidays only; travel with pets in Canada not available on Adirondack, Maple Leaf and Amtrak Cascades; not available on Auto Train, Keystone Service, Pennsylvanian, San Joaquins, Capitol Corridor Pacific Surfliner or Thruway Connecting Services.


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## desertflyer (Aug 15, 2019)

I've actually found the buses up the north coast to be very busy. I almost wonder if there is demand for more service than 2x a day.

Having said that, what an unfortunate miscommunication. I'm sorry that happened.


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## myspike20 (Feb 16, 2020)

HenryK said:


> Being the human part of a service dog team, I can make a few comments:
> 
> 1. By federal law, no formal certified training by "recognized facilities" is needed for a service animal. It simply must be trained to perform a task for a person with disabilities that the person can't perform for himself. People sometimes do this with their own dogs. Most often, though, they indeed are professionally trained.
> 
> ...


North Carolina has a voluntary registration as well. You have to send an application that includes parts filled out by a trainer and a statement from said trainer or statements from witnesses that you trained your own dog. If the person reviewing is satisfied with everything, you are issued a card with the DHHS seal, your dogs info and a statement of state registration and recognition. I think all states should offer this to separate real service dogs from the fakes.


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## Marge (Oct 14, 2022)

HARHBG said:


> I've yet to see a "legitimate" service animal on Amtrak. Real service animals are trained, highly trained. Every "service animal" I've encountered on Amtrak Long Distance trains was just someones pet. How do I know? Just watch the handler and the animal. Legitimate service animals are trained and experienced in holding their toilet need for many hours at a time. My father supported our family all his life training Police Service Animals.
> 
> All the animals (I can recall 4 as of this writing) I've witnessed on board Long Distance trains did indeed urinate and defecate while on board the train, commonly in the vestibule on the lower level of the sleeper car in front of the door while waiting for the train to come to a full halt at a stop, leaving the sleeping car attendant to deal with the mess.
> 
> ...


I have a service dog, but he can’t hold his urine for hours like he should because of medical reasons.He has a bad heart so he is on a diuretic (water pill) 3 times a day. I have him wear a diaper just in case he has an accident and doesn’t make it outside in time. So you can’t always judge a dog by that. If he didn’t have that pill and his other meds he wouldn’t be alive today. Plus a service dog doesn’t have to be certified by law. Look it up. And they don’t actually have to wear a service vest but if the owner is responsible and to avoid problems they would have the dog wear one. I do because of all the fake ones out there.


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## Ryan (Oct 14, 2022)

Welcome to AU. Just to note, you're responding to a post made in 2016 by someone who hasn't been on the website since that year, so you're likely to not get a response.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 14, 2022)

Just rode the Sunset Ltd from LAX to SAS, and by actual count saw 7 Dogs on the Train, including One Lady that had 2 "Purse Dogs" !


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## joelkfla (Oct 14, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> Just rode the Sunset Ltd from LAX to SAS, and by actual count saw 7 Dogs on the Train, including One Lady that had 2 "Purse Dogs" !


And at the risk of reopening a can of worms, let me restate:

Emotional support animals are not service animals. A service animal must be trained to perform a specific task to assist or protect their owner, and must not be disruptive or threaten others. A facility accommodating the owner and animal is not permitted to ask the owner about their disability, but is allowed to ask about the specific task that the animal is expected to perform.


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## jis (Oct 14, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> And at the risk of reopening a can of worms, let me restate:
> 
> Emotional support animals are not service animals. A service animal must be trained to perform a specific task to assist or protect their owner, and must not be disruptive or threaten others. A facility accommodating the owner and animal is not permitted to ask the owner about their disability, but is allowed to ask about the specific task that the animal is expected to perform.


But like many other things, including not asking for proper valid tickets sometimes, it is something that may or may not be inquired about by anyone in a given instance. But that single experience should not be used to generalize to "what happens always".


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## Ryan (Oct 14, 2022)

So you're saying that I should follow the rules, because they may be enforced, even if I've seen them not be enforced on a single occasion?

That's a pretty good idea!


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 14, 2022)

Marge said:


> I have a service dog, but he can’t hold his urine for hours like he should because of medical reasons.He has a bad heart so he is on a diuretic (water pill) 3 times a day. I have him wear a diaper just in case he has an accident and doesn’t make it outside in time. So you can’t always judge a dog by that. If he didn’t have that pill and his other meds he wouldn’t be alive today. Plus a service dog doesn’t have to be certified by law. Look it up. And they don’t actually have to wear a service vest but if the owner is responsible and to avoid problems they would have the dog wear one. I do because of all the fake ones out there.


Needing a diaper probably undermines whatever assurance a vest might provide.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 14, 2022)

I think maybe they need to allow pets to travel in the baggage cars, like back in the Good Old Days, with passengers being allowed to check on their animals accompanied by train staff. I mean, every baggage car I've been able to look into, including superliner coach-bags, are close to empty, so there's lots of room for pet carriers.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 14, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I think maybe they need to allow pets to travel in the baggage cars, like back in the Good Old Days, with passengers being allowed to check on their animals accompanied by train staff. I mean, every baggage car I've been able to look into, including superliner coach-bags, are close to empty, so there's lots of room for pet carriers.


I support the premise but I would be concerned about reduced safety during grade crossing impacts. If carriers are placed in an open area like luggage it seems risky. Amtrak would also need to install highly reliable HVAC units to keep the pets comfortable and ensure every train has a working baggage car ready to go instead of being parked or used for axle counts.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 14, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I support the premise but I would be concerned about reduced safety during grade crossing impacts. If carriers are placed in an open area like luggage it seems risky. Amtrak would also need to install highly reliable HVAC units to keep the pets comfortable and ensure every train has a working baggage car ready to go instead of being parked or used for axle counts.


Grade crossing impacts: All they need are attachment points to secure the pet carriers in which the pets are traveling. We used to drive our late kitty around in a carrier in our car. What if we got in a car crash? It turns out that nearly all pet carriers now have attachment points for seat belts. If we got in a crash, Kitty might have gotten banged around a bit, but wouldn't have been injured. (and our kitty didn't pass on to the Land of the Big Tuna Mountain because of a car crash.) And how might a grade crossing impact affect Fido or Kitty if they were sitting around in a sleeper of coach?

As for the need for HVAC, back in the Good Old Days, nobody had A/C, not the human passengers or any critters traveling in the baggage cars. And yet everybody was able to survive the trip. Having survived several weeks of a broken air conditioner in my bedroom in Baltimore this past August, I think that A/C, while nice, is not necessary for survival, especially if you can keep air moving about. (By the way, I had Covid-19 and recovered from it during the period my A/C was kaput.) I believe the V2 baggage car do have fans, and while I'm not sure, I can't imagine they don't have some sort of heating, as without it, liquids in your checked bags would be at risk of freezing solid. And based on my observation of neighborhood doggies and kitties running about during the winter, these critters don't need to be heated to 72 degrees F to be comfortable.


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## Bonser (Oct 14, 2022)

HARHBG said:


> I've yet to see a "legitimate" service animal on Amtrak. Real service animals are trained, highly trained. Every "service animal" I've encountered on Amtrak Long Distance trains was just someones pet. How do I know? Just watch the handler and the animal. Legitimate service animals are trained and experienced in holding their toilet need for many hours at a time. My father supported our family all his life training Police Service Animals.
> 
> All the animals (I can recall 4 as of this writing) I've witnessed on board Long Distance trains did indeed urinate and defecate while on board the train, commonly in the vestibule on the lower level of the sleeper car in front of the door while waiting for the train to come to a full halt at a stop, leaving the sleeping car attendant to deal with the mess.
> 
> ...


I've witnessed a woman taken off the train by the conductor for A) taking her dog out at an unauthorized station stop. and B) not having a legitimate service tag. The dog had left its presence felt in the bottom of the superliner car. Her ouster was the was the highlight of the trip.


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## Winecliff Station (Oct 15, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Needing a diaper probably undermines whatever assurance a vest might provide.



Not necessarily….I’ve seen service dogs on cruise ships wearing a diaper, even though they are trained. It actually gives the passengers and crew additional assurance.


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## DonNewcomb (Oct 19, 2022)

I once flew coast-to-coast with a friend who liked to play the "emotional support animal" card to fly with her dogs. During the flight, someone's "emotional support" cat got loose and disappeared on the plane. Someone sitting near us had an "asthma attack" when she heard the word "cat". It was a zoo (literally as well as figuratively). I understand that airlines no longer provide in-cabin transportation to "emotional support" animals and that service animals can't be pigs, snakes, alligators or suchlike. It's about time.

I remember in the late '50s my Dad wanted to bring a hunting dog with us on a trip to Nebraska. The dog had to travel in a cage in the baggage car. I think Dad could visit the dog and walk it during stops but the dog wasn't with us in the room.

I have a lot of sympathy for people who are highly allergic to cats and dogs and don't understand why they should suffer simply because someone doesn't want to be separated from their pet.


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## Marge (Oct 20, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Needing a diaper probably undermines whatever assurance a vest might provide.


Would you rather he didn’t wear a diaper and not make it outside in time to relieve himself by having an accident? Don’t you think that would be upsetting to the dog and everyone else? He is potty trained and will try to let me know but if he can’t make it outside in time due to his condition and medication it’s not his fault. We have to do what we need to.


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## Northwestern (Dec 30, 2022)

Here is why I think Amtrak should never allow dogs or other pets on trains.


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## John Bobinyec (Dec 30, 2022)

Was it a pet, or a service dog? If it was a pet, it should not, by Amtrak policy, have been allowed on the train, since it was too long a distance. If it was a service dog, I'm not sure what Amtrak's policy is, if the service dog misbehaves.

That being said, the incident didn't help Amtrak's cause at all and regardless of their official policy, it made them look like the cold, heartless robber barons of old. 

jb


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## MARC Rider (Dec 30, 2022)

John Bobinyec said:


> Was it a pet, or a service dog? If it was a pet, it should not, by Amtrak policy, have been allowed on the train, since it was too long a distance. If it was a service dog, I'm not sure what Amtrak's policy is, if the service dog misbehaves.
> 
> That being said, the incident didn't help Amtrak's cause at all and regardless of their official policy, it made them look like the cold, heartless robber barons of old.
> 
> jb


I don't know about on trains, but a few years ago, I shared space in the Club Acela in Washington with a lady who had a poorly controlled canine that she claimed was a "service dog." This didn't stop the lounge attendant for threatening to eject her if she couldn't keep the pooch under control, and she was unfazed at an attempt to bring up the ADA, as apparently even under this law, no one has a right to inflict an uncontrolled service animal on to the general public. I didn't see how the episode ended, as I had to board my train and leave.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 30, 2022)

John Bobinyec said:


> Was it a pet, or a service dog? If it was a pet, it should not, by Amtrak policy, have been allowed on the train, since it was too long a distance. If it was a service dog, I'm not sure what Amtrak's policy is, if the service dog misbehaves.
> 
> That being said, the incident didn't help Amtrak's cause at all and regardless of their official policy, it made them look like the cold, heartless robber barons of old.
> 
> jb


Amtrak was stupid not to have responded, especially because the reporter gets Amtrak's policies absolutely wrong.

Very poor, sensationalistic journalism with zero research.


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## Asher (Dec 30, 2022)

Northwestern said:


> Here is why I think Amtrak should never allow dogs or other pets on trains.



Pretty tough seeing Two ladies and their small dog tossed off a train in the middle of a 2000 mile trip. This don’t happen even in the movies.


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 30, 2022)

Asher said:


> Pretty tough seeing Two ladies and their small dog tossed off a train in the middle of a 2000 mile trip. This don’t happen even in the movies.


Then they should not have taken a non-service dog on the train with them. And it's not like they were let off at a grade crossing. And the police were still with them when the train pulled away.



zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak was stupid not to have responded, especially because the reporter gets Amtrak's policies absolutely wrong.
> 
> Very poor, sensationalistic journalism with zero research.


And why did the guy point out their race and their age. Those had nothing to do with why the were taken off the train.


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## Maybrook Valley (Dec 30, 2022)

It’s beyond horrible to kick two elderly passengers off a train in the middle of Colorado over something so ridiculously stupid. And to have them escorted off by police! 
Unless the dog was being aggressive, I don’t see how this was justified.

This is a serious issue. The fact that Amtrak has remained completely silent is also a head scratcher. They’re not even attempting to explain their side of the situation. Not even an apology. Just awful.


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## Asher (Dec 30, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Then they should not have taken a non-service dog on the train with them. And it's not like they were let off at a grade crossing. And the police were still with them when the train pulled away.
> 
> 
> And why did the guy point out their race and their age. Those had nothing to do with why the were taken off the train.


I’m sorry I can’t agree with the ruthless thinking that because we have a rule you’re getting off. I guess they had to wait until they got to a city with a police department to make sure they had the manpower to remove them.


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## PVD (Dec 30, 2022)

It is interesting how people complain when the staff doesn't follow the "service standards" word for word and also complain when they do follow the rules because they thought discretion should be used. Amtrak does not permit ESA, they are considered pets. The ADA covers service dogs, not ESA. Pets must remain in carriers, and there is paperwork required in advance. Even an ADA permitted service animal is the responsibility of its handler and does not get a free pass for problems.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 30, 2022)

Asher said:


> I’m sorry I can’t agree with the ruthless thinking that because we have a rule you’re getting off. I guess they had to wait until they got to a city with a police department to make sure they had the manpower to remove them.


I fully agree with the decision to remove those passengers with a dog from the train at the first opportunity. Even with the report's obvious slant in favor of the dog owners, they said it was defecating and urinating onboard. Although they portrayed it as no big deal (it is).

Amtrak's policy now is to remove passengers at station stops where at all possible. Only if there was a situation where the person is combative, engaging in criminal behavior or unable to care for themselves (i.e. falling down drunk) do they do remove passengers at grade crossings and then only into the arms of law enforcement.

I do wonder how they continued their journey. The report said they could continue the next day. But it would have to have been without the dog, I imagine the reservation was flagged and perhaps even the next day's crew notified to watch out. Their only real options with the dog would have been to either try to fly with it, it is small enough to be allowed in the cabin in a carrier, or rent a car. Continuing on Amtrak should not have been an option with that dog.

I feel sorry for the ladies, but actions have consequences and Amtrak's pet policies are clear and easy to find. They should have boarded the dog or gotten a pet sitter, since Amtrak's policy that pets would not be allowed for that trip is very clear.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 30, 2022)

Asher said:


> Pretty tough seeing Two ladies and their small dog tossed off a train in the middle of a 2000 mile trip. This don’t happen even in the movies.


"Reservations with pets are limited to seven hours total travel time, including transfer time between trains on multiple-segment trips."

That's actual real life. Cute doggies running around on trains (and not having bodily functions) is what happens in movies.

A 2000 mile trip on the California Zephyr is a whole lot longer than 7 hours. The passengers either had not tried to add their pet to the reservation, or did try, couldn't do it, and brought it onboard anyway.

Either way, this is an unfortunate case, but they have no one to blame but themselves.


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## joelkfla (Dec 31, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> "Reservations with pets are limited to seven hours total travel time, including transfer time between trains on multiple-segment trips."
> 
> That's actual real life. Cute doggies running around on trains (and not having bodily functions) is what happens in movies.
> 
> ...


Agree, except for the matter of blame.

If the TA was present when they boarded, and compassionately allowed them to board with the dog, then the TA is also to blame, and needs a learning moment.


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## Henry Kisor (Dec 31, 2022)

I'm a service dog handler and agree completely with Amtrak's actions. These rule-breaking shenanigans with non-service animals just makes things more difficult for us.


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 31, 2022)

Well, well, well. As usual, we don't know the whole story. However, it appears the AC on the train does. If you're on Facebook and belong to the Amtrak Fans group, check out a comment to one of the posts about the incident. Hint: the crew tried to accommodate the lady & her dog, but she was not cooperating.


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## Palmland (Dec 31, 2022)

On our recent AutoTrain trip we were surprised to see several service dogs. This included two chihuahuas seated next to us. I was surprised that the handler encouraged us to pet them, She said they had received certification after training courses but it was hard to tell as one tried to climb in my lap. But we were glad to get our dog fix!

I asked how the dogs relieved themselves and she said service dogs are allowed off the train at the Florence, SC service stop in the middle of the night and the SCA wakes them up before arrival there. I do wonder what happens when the train is delayed significantly as one trip we experienced.


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 31, 2022)

Palmland said:


> On our recent AutoTrain trip we were surprised to see several service dogs. This included two chihuahuas seated next to us. I was surprised that the handler encouraged us to pet them, She said they had received certification after training courses but it was hard to tell as one tried to climb in my lap. But we were glad to get our dog fix!
> 
> I asked how the dogs relieved themselves and she said service dogs are allowed off the train at the Florence, SC service stop in the middle of the night and the SCA wakes them up before arrival there. I do wonder what happens when the train is delayed significantly as one trip we experienced.


I think you were conned. Strangers should NOT pet service dogs, at least while they're working, and handlers should not encourage it. And they should not be climbing onto things or people. And why would she need 2 service dogs.


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## Bonser (Dec 31, 2022)

Palmland said:


> On our recent AutoTrain trip we were surprised to see several service dogs. This included two chihuahuas seated next to us. I was surprised that the handler encouraged us to pet them, She said they had received certification after training courses but it was hard to tell as one tried to climb in my lap. But we were glad to get our dog fix!
> 
> I asked how the dogs relieved themselves and she said service dogs are allowed off the train at the Florence, SC service stop in the middle of the night and the SCA wakes them up before arrival there. I do wonder what happens when the train is delayed significantly as one trip we experienced.


Bingo!! There is no spot for the dogs to relieve themselves.


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## CharlesBeasley (Dec 31, 2022)

Palmland said:


> On our recent AutoTrain trip we were surprised to see several service dogs. This included two chihuahuas seated next to us. I was surprised that the handler encouraged us to pet them, She said they had received certification after training courses but it was hard to tell as one tried to climb in my lap. But we were glad to get our dog fix!
> 
> I asked how the dogs relieved themselves and she said service dogs are allowed off the train at the Florence, SC service stop in the middle of the night and the SCA wakes them up before arrival there. I do wonder what happens when the train is delayed significantly as one trip we experienced.


Possibly therapy dogs and not service ones.


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 31, 2022)

CharlesBeasley said:


> Possibly therapy dogs and not service ones.


Which are not allowed on trains for over 7 hour rides.


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## Everydaymatters (Dec 31, 2022)

I don't think anyone loves dogs more than I do, but to smell "that smell" would be tough. Did anyone notice the man sitting across the aisle holding his nose? Please, people, stop making it hard for everyone who legitimately needs a service dog. These phony ones have destroyed the ability for in-training real service dogs to progress. They have been known to attack dogs being trained for that work, making them impossibly timid to ever help someone who needs it.


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## Northwestern (Dec 31, 2022)

A statement from Amtrak:

We apologize for the inconvenience and disruption to our passengers’ holiday travel on Dec. 21. Out of concern for all our customers on Train 6, two passengers were told to deboard after their dog created a disturbance by repeatedly barking, urinating, and defecating in the customer seating area. The dog’s owner was given multiple warnings about the dog being on the seat and was given advance notice about stops where dogs could be taken on walks. Several nearby passengers also asked to be moved because of the noise and odor.

Kimberly Woods, Amtrak


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## PVD (Dec 31, 2022)

There are actually a few conditions where a service dog may be required to be in a passenger's lap or right next to them. Those are not that common, but certainly do exist. Other than that, at the passenger's feet, although that is difficult for some large breeds. Therapy and support animals are not supposed to be on Amtrak except as pets and are required to be in their carriers, under the seat.


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## Bonser (Dec 31, 2022)

PVD said:


> There are actually a few conditions where a service dog may be required to be in a passenger's lap or right next to them. Those are not that common, but certainly do exist. Other than that, at the passenger's feet, although that is difficult for some large breeds. Therapy and support animals are not supposed to be on Amtrak except as pets and are required to be in their carriers, under the seat.


As others have noted, this should never have happened. The situation should have been addressed on the boarding platform in Emeryville because they did not have a carrier. Failing this, they should have been kicked off by Martinez, if not Richmond.


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## west point (Dec 31, 2022)

Just so every one knows the airlines have the same problems. Know of an incident at Montreal where an airplane had to return to the gate because dog was running loose and have mounties march woman and dog off. Passengers clapped their hands. 

What was not told ntil later that the woman had been evicted from other planes that day because dog had run wild before leaving gates. Guess woman thought waiting until aiplane taxxing to let dog out was OK? Maybe Amtrak has some problem with dogies let loos after leaving station?


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## Canadian Train Lover (Jan 5, 2023)

We are on a train right now and a passenger and a support dog boarded a few hours ago. I don’t believe this is a service dog. If it is, it is ill behaved. The owner has had trouble handling it and it barks and seeks out passengers as they pass. The owner has also had it sitting in the seat and allowed multiple people to pet it. It is a large breed dog and can be intimidating to other passengers going by as it will be partially in the aisle wanting attention. I can see why this would be concerning and especially of concern to passengers with service animals that would like to be able to travel.


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## Bonser (Jan 5, 2023)

Canadian Train Lover said:


> We are on a train right now and a passenger and a support dog boarded a few hours ago. I don’t believe this is a service dog. If it is, it is ill behaved. The owner has had trouble handling it and it barks and seeks out passengers as they pass. The owner has also had it sitting in the seat and allowed multiple people to pet it. It is a large breed dog and can be intimidating to other passengers going by as it will be partially in the aisle wanting attention. I can see why this would be concerning and especially of concern to passengers with service animals that would like to be able to travel.


It's like a Pandora's Box was opened when pets were allowed.


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## PVD (Jan 5, 2023)

Amtrak does not recognize support dogs. It needs to be a service dog or a pet. Unless it's particular service need involves proximity to the handler it is not supposed to be on the seat. And if it is not behaving properly, Amtrak is fully within its rights to toss it. But don't hold your breath on that.


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## Bonser (Jan 5, 2023)

PVD said:


> Amtrak does not recognize support dogs. It needs to be a service dog or a pet. Unless it's particular service need involves proximity to the handler it is not supposed to be on the seat. And if it is not behaving properly, Amtrak is fully within its rights to toss it. But don't hold your breath on that.


They should not be allowed to board if they are not in a carrying cage.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 5, 2023)

Bonser said:


> They should not be allowed to board if they are not in a carrying cage.


Pets are required to be in carriers. Service dogs are not.


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## Asher (Jan 5, 2023)

Bonser said:


> It's like a Pandora's Box was opened when pets were allowed.


Probably true. Someone will always try to take advantage.
It’s a double edge sword, have dogs or travel. That’s the way it’s been for me for awhile now, can’t board the dog so can’t travel. It’s a bummer.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 5, 2023)

Bonser said:


> It's like a Pandora's Box was opened when pets were allowed.





Asher said:


> Probably true. Someone will always try to take advantage.
> It’s a double edge sword, have dogs or travel. That’s the way it’s been for me for awhile now, can’t board the dog so can’t travel. It’s a bummer.


Well, the policy is clearly pets must be in carriers and have them added to the ticket. That passenger should have been denied boarding. If they claimed it was a service dog, they should have been deboarded once it became clear from its behavior that it was not one. Albeit at the risk of getting negative coverage from an ignorant local news crew.

The actual policies are quite clear. Amtrak needs to enforce them, but standard Amtrak YMMV applies. The only grey area is claiming service animal status for pets. And the dog's behavior usually makes that clear, and offending passengers should be deboarded once it is.

BTW, I have had dogs, as many as three at one time. I currently have a cat. My dogs got boarded and I currently use pet sitter drop in visits to care for my cat when travelling. Personally, I would never allow pet ownership to interfere with my ability to travel myself, although I have known people that do. You make your choices, act in ways that seem proper for you, and then accept the consequences.


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## Palmland (Jan 5, 2023)

Asher said:


> It’s a double edge sword, have dogs or travel. That’s the way it’s been for me for awhile now, can’t board the dog so can’t travel. It’s a bummer.


It doesn’t have to be a choice. We have a wonderful dog sitter who spoils our dog more than we and keeps her at her house. It’s worth checking out in your neighborhood.


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## Bonser (Jan 5, 2023)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Pets are required to be in carriers. Service dogs are not.


I was referring to pets. That said, verification needs to be strictly enforced for service dogs.


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## PVD (Jan 5, 2023)

Bonser said:


> I was referring to pets. That said, verification needs to be strictly enforced for service dogs.


The ADA seriously limits one's ability to verify service animals, since there is no _legit_ registry or regulation of them.


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## Asher (Jan 5, 2023)

Palmland said:


> It doesn’t have to be a choice. We have a wonderful dog sitter who spoils our dog more than we and keeps her at her house. It’s worth checking out in your neighborhood.


Thank you, In most cases that works just fine, until it doesn’t. We have boarded our dogs out many times, some have taken to it, others haven’t done so well. I’ll leave it at that.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jan 5, 2023)

PVD said:


> The ADA seriously limits one's ability to verify service animals, since there is no _legit_ registry or regulation of them.


Without getting too into it; yes, one cannot _verify _the legitimacy of service (or comfort) animals. The building I live in (and many others) have been forced to take comfort animals and often pets, that are being sold as comfort and/or service animals when it's obvious that they are just - sometimes badly treated and ill or untrained - pets. Also, only legit service animals are dogs and horses, can't remember where I learned that - may also apply to comfort animals, so no comfort skunks, skinks or snakes (on a plane - I so regret not saving the image of a plane with the "intel inside" logo morphed into a "snakes inside" logo). Also, the various professional psychiatric organizations have told their members not to sign any paperwork for 'comfort' animals due to the abuse of the program.


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## joelkfla (Jan 5, 2023)

PVD said:


> The ADA seriously limits one's ability to verify service animals, since there is no _legit_ registry or regulation of them.


From ADA Requirements: Service Animals

*Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. ... *Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.
*A service animal must be under the control of its handler. Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless the individual’s disability prevents using these devices or these devices interfere with the service animal’s safe, effective performance of tasks.*
When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform.
It's not perfect, but IMO training OBS and conductors to follow these guidelines would screen out a lot of the fake service dogs.

Note that there are psychiatric service dogs, but like all service dogs, they must be trained to perform a specific task, not just to comfort or calm the owner.

Even legitimate service dogs can be removed in 2 specific situations: "(1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken."


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## joelkfla (Jan 5, 2023)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Without getting too into it; yes, one cannot _verify _the legitimacy of service (or comfort) animals. The building I live in (and many others) have been forced to take comfort animals and often pets, that are being sold as comfort and/or service animals when it's obvious that they are just - sometimes badly treated and ill or untrained - pets. Also, only legit service animals are dogs and horses, can't remember where I learned that - may also apply to comfort animals, so no comfort skunks, skinks or snakes (on a plane - I so regret not saving the image of a plane with the "intel inside" logo morphed into a "snakes inside" logo). Also, the various professional psychiatric organizations have told their members not to sign any paperwork for 'comfort' animals due to the abuse of the program.


The Fair Housing Act has different rules from the ADA. They lump all "assistance animals" into one category, and landlords must make reasonable accommodations.

"Assistance animals are not pets. They are animals that do work, perform tasks, assist, and/or provide therapeutic emotional support for individuals with disabilities. There are two types of assistance animals: (1) service animals, and (2) other animals that do work, perform tasks, provide assistance, and/or provide therapeutic emotional support for individuals with disabilities (referred to in this guidance as a “support animal”)."​


https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/HUDAsstAnimalNC1-28-2020.pdf


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## zephyr17 (Jan 5, 2023)

joelkfla said:


> (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform.


That's the angle. When someone claims a "service animal" the conductors should ask that ADA permitted question.


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## Canadian Train Lover (Jan 6, 2023)

In the end it turns out the passenger had 2 dogs on board. The second was a very young puppy that was being bottle fed and was an unhappy little thing whining throughout the night. The large dog had a vest on that said emotional support animal. When the passenger disembarked, I don’t know what happened to the puppy. There wasn’t a carrier or cage that we could see. Was it hiding inside the passengers coat? In the duffel bag? 

The passenger was catching a connector to Ann Arbor. I wonder if they were permitted onto that train? 

Don’t get me wrong. I am an animal lover and have had many dogs, horses and cats over the years. I worry that people who have service dogs will be faced with unfair consequences put in place because some travellers bring poorly trained dogs on board as service animals and something goes wrong. 

A few years ago, Via Rail allowed dogs to travel in the baggage carrier across Canada. We travelled with our two large dogs in their kennels from Edmonton to Washago and back. The crew was so great letting us know when our next stop would be for walking and we could check on them, feed and water often, and make sure they were comfortable. We travelled in July so it was warm. They had the baggage carrier door open a few inches for air flow and we had fans on their kennels. I remember taking them for a swim at a stop in Horne Payne. There were quite a few dogs travelling back then before they put an end to that privilege. It was so nice to be able to take them with us as we would often travel east for several weeks to see family. 

Dogs not being allowed on trains anymore happened for a reason. I hope that if the time comes that Amtrak considers making changes that they consider enforcing their regulations first before making a blanket change that will affect service dogs as well.


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## Henry Kisor (Jan 6, 2023)

I travel often on Amtrak with a service dog. OBS and conductors (with one exception some years ago) have been remarkably accommodating, especially with the dog's relief needs. The only difficulties (and there really haven't been so many) have been with fellow passengers unaware of service dog etiquette (not their fault!) who want to pet the dog without asking or who don't believe the dog is a genuine service animal (he is a small mini schnauzer mix) and complain to the conductors about imagined behavior. That's why we always ride in sleeper or, for shorter trips, business class if available. (Edit: It's oh-dark-thirty, I just got up and saw this thread, and forgot I've already said my piece several times on it. Apologies.)


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2023)

Henry Kisor said:


> I travel often on Amtrak with a service dog. OBS and conductors (with one exception some years ago) have been remarkably accommodating, especially with the dog's relief needs. The only difficulties (and there really haven't been so many) have been with fellow passengers unaware of service dog etiquette (not their fault!) who want to pet the dog without asking or who don't believe the dog is a genuine service animal (he is a small mini schnauzer mix) and complain to the conductors about imagined behavior. That's why we always ride in sleeper or, for shorter trips, business class if available. (Edit: It's oh-dark-thirty, I just got up and saw this thread, and forgot I've already said my piece several times on it. Apologies.)


It bears repeating, Henry. Keep on posting to remind us about service dogs on trains.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 6, 2023)

PVD said:


> The ADA seriously limits one's ability to verify service animals, since there is no _legit_ registry or regulation of them.


Maybe the ADA needs to be amended to allow the ability to verify service animals.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 6, 2023)

MARC Rider said:


> Maybe the ADA needs to be amended to allow the ability to verify service animals.


That puts the burden on the person with a service animal. People with service animals already have enough burdens to deal with. 
@Henry Kisor, care to give your thoughts?


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## PVD (Jan 6, 2023)

There are a number of conditions where specially trained animals alert before a serious condition occurs, and it is often breeds not commonly associated with "service dog" that fill those roles, since they may be required to be in extremely close proximity (like in lap or next seat) There is no good way to "demonstrate" that skill, certainly we wouldn't ask someone to have a seizure to show what their dog does. And there is no formal registry or certification agency. An animal can even be self-trained in some cases. Most suggestions though well meaning, impose a serious burden on those who really depend on these animals. It is truly sad that the low end of society does things that impact others without caring at all. There just is not an easy answer or quick fix.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 6, 2023)

Let's just start with the permitted ADA question of what they're supposed to do, coupled with observing whether or not the dog's behavior is consistent with service animal training. Demonstrating the service a much of a leap too far. It is not always practical, is clearly inconsistent with the ADA and privacy protections.

A central registry that simply certifies a service animal's status as such without the service performed being publicly available would probably be a reasonable solution for all concerned.

The apparent epidemic of false service dog claims in order to get Fluffy or Butch in where they do not belong ultimately negatively impacts those who need and have actual service animals.


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