# Connect PGH to STL



## northnorthwest (Nov 23, 2015)

There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?

Okay...DISCUSS!


----------



## Seaboard92 (Nov 23, 2015)

I'll get the first post in on this. With the shortlines controlling the old PRR Panhandle to Columbus you're going to run into some problems. Namely slow speeds(under 40), and needing massive infrastructure. So I would see it splitting from the main route at Cleveland actually. Then following my three C route in this forum to Columbus. Then you can either run up via Ridgeway. I would like via Springdale but then it's a shortline again. Then into Indianapolis. Follows by CSX to St Louis ex NYC routing.

And then we would have another train running as the NYC Southwestern Limited. The run time could be shortened by avoiding Columbus.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 23, 2015)

How about an extension into Denver?

According to the 1978 "Final Report to Congress on the Amtrak Route System" (https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L04153), one of the suggestions was a route between KCY and DEN to combine both the then Southwest Limited and San Francisco Zephyr to then split via Ogden, Utah.

Did Amtrak ever do KCY to DEN? Is there even a track and if so what are the details?


----------



## Eric S (Nov 23, 2015)

For this general route's history in the early Amtrak era, look up the National Limited which was discontinued in 1979.

As for KCY-DEN specifically, the State of KS studied this maybe 10ish years ago (the study used to be on the KDOT website, but a quick search didn't find it) using a route essentially paralleling I-70 - long travel time or major costs to upgrade and reduce times. Other possibilities - split from the Southwest Chief route at La Junta, running through Pueblo and Colorado Springs (but that runs into *major* congestion issues), or run a train, perhaps an extended Missouri River Runner, KCY-OMA with connections there on toward DEN.


----------



## jis (Nov 23, 2015)

Amtrak never had a KCY to DEN train. The primary route from KCY to DEN I believe is an UP route, which has not seen passenger service since the inception of Amtrak. But until just before Amtrak there was a train called Portland Rose or some such that connected KCY to DEN. It was a truncated version of a train that at some point connected KCY to Portland I suppose.

Currently there are two purely BNSF routings available, one via Omaha and the other via la Junta - Pueblo.


----------



## Eric S (Nov 23, 2015)

It was the UP route (via Topeka, Manhattan, Salina, Hays, etc) that KDOT studied. Really slow unless major bucks are spent to upgrade, if I remember the study correctly.

EDIT: Found the KDOT report that looked at the UP line. Without improvements, it estimated KCY-DEN travel times of around 18 hours given existing (as of year 2000) track conditions using standard Amtrak equipment, or around 10 hours with improvements and using Talgo equipment. http://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/bureaus/burrail/rail/publications/krpt6_1.pdf


----------



## jis (Nov 23, 2015)

Thanks for finding that Eric. Interesting stuff.


----------



## zephyr17 (Nov 23, 2015)

Last Kansas City - Denver trains were UP's City of Kansas City (which was a truncated version of the City of St. Louis after Wabash got out of the KC-St. Louis leg), that died on Amday.


----------



## jis (Nov 23, 2015)

zephyr17 said:


> Last Kansas City - Denver trains were UP's City of Kansas City (which was a truncated version of the City of St. Louis after Wabash got out of the KC-St. Louis leg), that died on Amday.


Ah Thanks. I was just looking at an Amday discontinuance list and may have read it wrong.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 23, 2015)

jis said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > Last Kansas City - Denver trains were UP's City of Kansas City (which was a truncated version of the City of St. Louis after Wabash got out of the KC-St. Louis leg), that died on Amday.
> ...


Which Amday are we referring to here? The day it was formed back in 1971?


----------



## jis (Nov 23, 2015)

Yes.

Interestingly the City of Kansas City in its City of St. Louis incarnation was a through train from St. Louis to Los Angeles via KCY, DEN, Wyoming, Ogden, SLC, Las Vegas! as late as 1967. See:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track8/citystlouis196706.html

Oh and upon further checking of historical timetables.... I was not mistaken. There also was the Portland Rose which ran KCY - DEN - Cheyenne - Green River WY - Pocatello - Portland Seattle (bypassing Ogden). That one also went away on Amday.

City of Kansas City and City of Portland ran together upto Green River WY where it was split with the City of Portland going to Portland and City of Kansas City going to LA via Ogden. the City of Portland and the Portland Rose ran roughly twelve hours apart.

All from June 1969 Official Guide, 22 months before Amday.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 23, 2015)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > zephyr17 said:
> ...





jis said:


> Yes.


I wonder if anyone has a list of all the trains that died on Amday (start a new thread)? Or is the list just way, way, way too long?


----------



## jis (Nov 23, 2015)

I found one this morning, which I can't find anymore. I was quoting the Portland Rose from it. I will post if I find it again.

Ah! found it again. Here you go:

http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/f/7/7/passenger_trains_operating_on_the_eve_of_amtrak.pdf


----------



## Eric S (Nov 23, 2015)

This PDF from TRAINS magazine appears to be a comprehensive list of all trains operating immediately prior to Amtrak:

http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/f/7/7/passenger_trains_operating_on_the_eve_of_amtrak.pdf


----------



## northnorthwest (Nov 23, 2015)

Eric S said:


> This PDF from TRAINS magazine appears to be a comprehensive list of all trains operating immediately prior to Amtrak:
> 
> http://ctr.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/f/7/7/passenger_trains_operating_on_the_eve_of_amtrak.pdf


For those of us who are too young and never lived through even this late period, this is an amazing thing to think about. Once Amtrak came so much just vanished! There are so many small towns and direct routes that were available that just got wiped out. Places that I have been to like Athens, GA or will have to go to like Laramie, WY actually had trains that served them! What a world. This makes me really want to read up on the history and understand the financial status of these railroads. They were operating according to this chart, but Amtrak decided to kill them. I'm guessing that means nobody was taking them? Or maybe people were still taking them, but the losses over time were unsustainable. Have to read about it. Either way, I'll enjoy imagining this train-connected version of the USA.


----------



## neroden (Nov 23, 2015)

The most interesting thing about that list -- when was the discontinuation of the Wall Street, operated by the Reading from NY to Philadelphia? Did it get dropped in the Reading bankruptcy later in 1971?

It's also notable that the entire Erie, DL&W, Lehigh Valley, and CNJ networks were already gone. Upstate NY and PA got trashed even before Penn Central.


----------



## zephyr17 (Nov 24, 2015)

northnorthwest said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > This PDF from TRAINS magazine appears to be a comprehensive list of all trains operating immediately prior to Amtrak:
> ...


More than half of all passenger trains then operating died on May 1, 1971. A book you'd be interested in is "Twilight of the Great Trains" by Fred Frailey. It has case studies of what the various railroads did with their passenger services, the economics of it, and why even pro-passenger railroads like the Santa Fe and the Seaboard Coast Line were backing away from passenger service.. It is well written and a great read.

That was a sad time. I still remember going to LA Union Station and seeing the arrival/departure board (now itself gone) plastered with ICC-required discontinuation notices of the trains that were being discontinued in the Amtrak transition. Back then the pigeons in LAUPT outnumbered the people by a considerable margin. You could have shot a cannon off in there and not hit anybody. Also, at the time, almost no one expected Amtrak/Railpax to last more than 5 years, it was considered a fig leaf and a way to give intercity passenger service a decent burial politically: "Well, we tried." Amtrak was basically saved by the 1973-74 oil crisis and traffic on what was to become the NEC jumped and passenger rail's utility started being recognized. The need for service in the Northeast dragged the rest of the system with it because it was recognized that the rest of the country was not going to subsidize the Northeast if they weren't going to get service and an unspoken bargain was struck that lasted pretty much to this day. There was even a modest expansion in the mid-70s when the Pioneer and Desert Wind and some other trains got added, although the National Limited and some other trains got axed in the Carter Cuts in 1979. At that time, under the original legislation (The Passenger Rail Act of 1970), the railroads HAD to accept resumption of passenger service by Amtrak on any line that had had passenger service in 1970 and the railroad had to be in condition that would allow the speed of passenger trains as of 1970. If a line needed to be improved to meet that, the capital cost would not be borne by Amtrak. Unfortunately, those provisions lapsed with the expiration of the original act's authorization in 1996.

Laramie had service well into the Amtrak era with the San Francisco Zephyr, a kit-bash of the old California Zephyr and the City of San Francisco. Laramie lost service in 1983 when D&RGW finally joined Amtrak and 5/6 was re-routed onto Rio Grande to become Amtrak's California Zephyr. It regained service when the Pioneer was re-routed from Denver to Ogden over the UP and split from the CZ at Denver, basically in order to speed up the schedule and give better times in the Pacific Northwest. It lost it again in 1996(97?) when the Pioneer and Desert Wind were cut.

FYI, the Wall Street wasn't considered to be "intercity" so Reading didn't join Amtrak and didn't get to get rid of it as part of Amtrak. Not sure exactly when it died, though. The story of the railroads that were eligible to join Amtrak (D&RGW, Rock Island, Southern) but didn't and kept operating their own passenger trains is an interesting one. And it was a list that Santa Fe almost joined...


----------



## jis (Nov 24, 2015)

The _Wall Street_'s sister train, the _Crusader _survived as a Reading service between Philly and Newark until 1976, when Reading became part of Conrail. At that point SEPTA picked it up and operated it until April 1981. After discontinuance of through service NJTransit operated a single round trip per weekday service between Newark and West Trenton connecting to SEPTA West Trenton service. This NJT service ended in December 1982.


----------



## Eric S (Nov 24, 2015)

I second the recommendation about "Twilight of the Great Trains" - great book, well worth checking out.


----------



## northnorthwest (Nov 24, 2015)

zephyr17 said:


> northnorthwest said:
> 
> 
> > Eric S said:
> ...


Thanks for this book recommendation. I'm planning my January reading (while in WY...thus thinking about travel there), and this will definitely be on my list.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Nov 24, 2015)

What route(s) can be used between CIN and PGH?


----------



## Seaboard92 (Nov 25, 2015)

Well first Py you're going to need to go up to Columbus. And from there honestly Crestline onto the old PRR mainline. As the old PRR Panhandle belongs to two regional railroads now. And that's going to require massive improvement. So I think routing it further north would be better. Plus the line from CIN to Crestline would be improved for the three C corridor. And then the improvements from Crestline to PHH help you get a Broadway Limited on it's original route for a bit cheeper price. Even though I like the idea of adding service to the Panhandle line. Two trains a day from Crestline east will help the ridership grow. And six trains south if Crestline to CIN will really help ridership (Ohio State Limited, Buckeye corridor round trip, Cincinattian). But that's my ideas.


----------



## Midlands Steve (Mar 25, 2016)

With established passenger routes now either gone, downgraded, or endangered, it can be a real challenge to find suitable routing. This scenario is getting worse. To get from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati, it looks like your best route, today, would be through Cleveland and Columbus. Yes, I can see where you could head westward to Crestline, but I'm not sure if this would be advisable. If you can still get from Pittsburgh to Columbus over ex-PRR trackage, with reasonable timing, then this would be the way to go--and shorter too.


----------



## neroden (Mar 29, 2016)

My handy SPV atlas tells me that the good routes from PIT to CIN went through Columbus, forever. The PRR's demolished routes had no virtue over the routes through Columbus, and have even less virtue given the current population distribution.

The best route which is still intact from Pittsburgh to Columbus is controlled by the Wheeling & Lake Erie, and the Columbus & Ohio River Railroad. From Columbus to Cincy there are two choices, NS or Indiana & Ohio Central, but NS is better because it goes through Dayton.


----------



## E60JPC (Mar 30, 2016)

northnorthwest said:


> There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?
> 
> Okay...DISCUSS!


I think there are 2 good options for possible routes from New York to St. Louis via Pittsburgh.

*Option # 1*

- Leg 1: The former Broadway Limited route which follows the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA, the current Capitol Limited route from Pittsburgh, PA to Alliance, OH, and continues west on Norfolk Southern to Crestline, OH.

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-Conrail/PC/NYC Big 4) Crestline, OH to Indianapolis, IN then, via the former National Limited route, to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Alliance-Crestline & New York-Pittsburgh-Indianapolis-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Canton, OH; Crestline, OH; 2nd New York-Indianapolis train with connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Greencastle, IN; Terre Haute, IN; connection to/from Illini, Saluki, City of New Orleans at Effingham, IL.

*Option # 2*

- Leg 1: The former Three Rivers route from New York, NY to Fostoria, OH, using the current Pennsylvanian route New York, NY to Pittsburgh, PA.

- Leg 2: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Nickel Plate) Fostoria, OH to Ft. Wayne, IN.

- Leg 3: Norfolk Southern (ex-N&W/Wabash) Ft. Wayne, IN to Springfield, IL.

- Leg 4: Lincoln Service route Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO.

- Advantages: Restores New York-Pittsburgh-Fostoria & New York-Pittsburgh-St. Louis service, and former station stops at Youngstown, OH; Akron, OH; Fostoria, OH; Ft. Wayne, IN, 2nd New York-Lafayette train with Connection to Chicago via Hoosier State; Decatur, IL; adds another frequency between Springfield, IL and St. Louis.

A Washington-St. Louis section can run via the NEC Washington-Philadelphia to split/combine with the NY section and swap electric/diesel locomotives. That would provide the single seat ride you seek from Baltimore to St. Louis.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 1: replace one of the two daily Missouri River Runners with the new NY/WAS-KC train.

For extension to Kansas City under Option # 2: instead of running Springfield, IL to St. Louis, MO, run instead Springfield, IL to WB Jct., MO via Hannibal, MO (via Norfolk Southern), then down the current Southwest Chief route into Kansas City (via BNSF Railway).


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 30, 2016)

E60JPC said:


> northnorthwest said:
> 
> 
> > There's a chance I will need to go from BAL to the middle of Missouri this summer, and that got me thinking about the kind of route(s) that used to exist that could really help the system now. I think one of these routes would be a connection from Pittsburgh to St. Louis (and continuing to Kansas City) by way of either Indianapolis and/or Cincnnnati, probably cutting through Columbus, OH. It seems like having to route all east-west traffic through Chicago is a huge waste of time for anyone with western destinations St. Louis or south. There really should be another east-west route that bypasses Chicago. Since I'm guessing we all agree on that concept and its benefits, what route do you think would be the most useful and practical? Do you agree that PGH would be the place for the new route to split from existing routes (allowing all traffic from the NEC to either go via CHI or this new route)? And which path through OH and IN is best?
> ...


Can you think of any options that serve either Columbus and/or Cincinnati in between PGH and IND?


----------



## Palmetto (Mar 30, 2016)

.



neroden said:


> The most interesting thing about that list -- when was the discontinuation of the Wall Street, operated by the Reading from NY to Philadelphia? Did it get dropped in the Reading bankruptcy later in 1971?
> 
> It's also notable that the entire Erie, DL&W, Lehigh Valley, and CNJ networks were already gone. Upstate NY and PA got trashed even before Penn Central.


Another area that got trashed prior to the arrival of Amtrak was Northern New England. The B&M, Maine Central, and Bangor and Aroostook pulled out of long distance [such as than can be there] in the early 60's or so. It was once possible, for example to take a train from Boston to Halifax, NS on _*The Gull*_


----------



## E60JPC (Mar 30, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> E60JPC said:
> 
> 
> > northnorthwest said:
> ...


- Leg 1: Pittsburgh, PA to Crestiline, OH on the former Broadway Limited route (NS)

- Leg 2: CSX (ex-C&O?) from Crestline, OH to Columbus, OH

- Leg 3: Columbus, OH to Dayton, OH on the former National Limited route (NS), though I don't know if there is a connection between the North-South CSX line and East-West NS line in Columbus. I'm assuming there is.

- Leg 4: CSX Dayton, OH to Hamilton, OH (ex-B&O)

- Leg 5: The current Cardinal route from Hamilton, OH to Indianapolis, IN (CSX)

This would add a 2nd train to Alliance, OH on the Capitol Limited route and restore service to the Ohio points of Canton & Crestline on the old Broadway Limited route as well as Columbus & Dayton on the old National Limited route. Seems like it might be slow and circuitous to route a train this way.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 30, 2016)

E60JPC said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > E60JPC said:
> ...


True, PGH-Columbus-CIN (or Hamilton)-IND-STL looks zig zag like.

I think I discussed this in another post but what about CIN-Louisville-STL, skipping IND? Compared to your original lines, you are trading IND for Columbus, Dayton, and Louisville.

Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?


----------



## E60JPC (Apr 10, 2016)

True, PGH-Columbus-CIN (or Hamilton)-IND-STL looks zig zag like.

I think I discussed this in another post but what about CIN-Louisville-STL, skipping IND? Compared to your original lines, you are trading IND for Columbus, Dayton, and Louisville.

Routing such a train via Louiville, KY would take it further off course between its endpoints.

Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?

But where would the Cardinal's present route intercept this proposed routing? The current Cardinal route is nowhere near Pittsburgh.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 10, 2016)

E60JPC said:


> Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?
> 
> But where would the Cardinal's present route intercept this proposed routing? The current Cardinal route is nowhere near Pittsburgh.


CHI-IND-CIN-Columbus-PGH-PHL-(NYP or WAS, whatever is more popular).


----------



## ParanoidAndroid (Apr 10, 2016)

CIN to LVL to STL is pretty slow, about 10 hours long.


----------



## E60JPC (Apr 10, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> E60JPC said:
> 
> 
> > Also off topic but would PGH-Columbus-CIN-IND-CHI be a possible reroute of the Cardinal to avoid the track section rumored to be downgraded to 30 mph?
> ...


The train would have to reverse direction in CIN in the midst of all the freight traffic in/out of Queensgate Yard. There would be a practical way to do that that wouldn't involve long reverse moves through the city, snarling freight traffic, then redundant route mileage Hamilton-Cincinnati-Hamilton. The latter is a 55 mile round-trip just to serve CIN. The eastern half of the route wouldn't be recognizable as anything resembling the Cardinal's present (or previous) route.

Perhaps a slightly smoother (from an operating standpoint) alternative would be to run the Cardinal on its current route from Chicago through South Shore-South Portsmouth, KY to Wheelersburg freight yard which has a turning loop that would allow the train to reverse direction then head back towards South Shore-South Portsmouth, KY, but crossing the Ohio River instead and following CSX through Chillicothe, OH (a former stop on the Shenandoah) and Columbus (a former stop on the National Limited) to Crestline (a former stop on the Broadway Limited), where the train can pick up Norfolk Southern's ex-PRR and follow the former Broadway Limited route to Pittsburgh, PA via the former Broadway Limited stop at Canton, OH and the current Capitol Limited stop in Alliance, OH.

That might work with freight railroad cooperation from CSX and Norfolk Southern. The problems with this routing though is that a large swath of southern WV and VA would lose train service, including Charleston, WV - the state capitol.

What would the train's routing be east of Pittsburgh? The 2 most realist possibilities are the Pennsylvanian route via Norfolk Southern+Amtrak to Philadelphia and NYC or the Capitol Limited route to DC via CSX.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 10, 2016)

E60JPC said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > E60JPC said:
> ...


My goal is to get from CIN to the East Coast daily and as fast as possible. It wouldn't hurt if there is a CHI-NEC train that takes the Pennsylvanian route either to give most of PA a direct train to CHI which doesn't exist now.

With the tracks east of CIN rumored of being downgraded to 30 mph the trip that way would take even longer than it does now and something (Buckingham Branch?) is stopping the Cardinal from going daily now. The current Cardinal from NYP-CHI takes 28 hr 20 min. If that gets beyond 30 hrs I don't see how it would be practical. Plus, lack of daily service is a problem.


----------



## E60JPC (Apr 17, 2016)

My goal is to get from CIN to the East Coast daily and as fast as possible. It wouldn't hurt if there is a CHI-NEC train that takes the Pennsylvanian route either to give most of PA a direct train to CHI which doesn't exist now.

I think maybe the best way to go from Cincinnati to the NEC currenlty would be CSX up the Cardinal route to Hamilton (25 miles), then head towards Dayton at the fork in the route (the Cardinal turns west here towards Indianapolis).

In a bygone era, the National Limited route would have been the most direct route from Dayton - 702 miles to NYC via PGH, PHL.

Among the 3 possible remaining route options:

1. Cincinnati-Dayton-Cleveland (CSX Big 4), then 618 miles via the Lake Shore Limited route to NYC via Buffalo, Albany.

2. Cincinnati-Dayton-Greenwich (CSX Big 4), then 618 miles via the former Three Rivers route to NYC via Pittsburgh, Philadelphia.*

3. Cincinnati-Dayton-Crestline (CSX Big 4), then 627 miles via the former Broadway Limited route to NYC via Pittsburgh, Philadelphia.

*Assuming Greenwich to be halfway between Akron and Fostoria.

Since the Dayton-Crestline distance is the shortest distance to an intercept point going east from Ohio, this should be the preferred route.

With the tracks east of CIN rumored of being downgraded to 30 mph the trip that way would take even longer than it does now and something (Buckingham Branch?) is stopping the Cardinal from going daily now. The current Cardinal from NYP-CHI takes 28 hr 20 min. If that gets beyond 30 hrs I don't see how it would be practical. Plus, lack of daily service is a problem.

In order to preserve as much of the Cardinal's current route as possible, the train could run from Chicago to Clifton Forge on its current route, then continue east on CSX instead of via Buckingham Branch. The train would pass through Lynchburg and could turn on a wye south of the current Kemper St. Station, then turn north, running on the Crescent's route from Lynchburg to NYC.

Another option would be to run the Cardinal from Chicago to Huntington, then run north on CSX along the Ohio River to Parkesburg, WV, then east on the former Shenandoah route to Cumberland, then on to DC via the current Capitol Limited route. A throughway bus connection could be established between Charleston and Huntington, WV.


----------

