# Main CZ #5 & 6 Discussion Thread



## Peter Richards (Aug 25, 2011)

Date: Thursday, 25 August 2011, 2 pm, MDT

I am registered on this board, but cannot get password crap to work.... frustrating... !!

I am one of the group of Denver and Grand Junction 'Trails and Rails' volunteer guides on board the CZ between Denver and Grand Junction. We do this program four days per week in the summer, in both directions.

The CZ westbound has been terribly late all summer, as most of you know.

Today's train #5, is 11 hours and 45 minutes late arriving in DEN. It left CHI 8 minutes late yesterday.

Yesterday's train got to DEN 12 hours and 45 minutes late. It left CHI 1 hour and 20 minutes late yesterday.

In the last 4 weeks, the westbound CZ, # 5, has been an 'average' of 445 minutes late arriving in DEN.

445 minutes is 7.4 hours...

The eastbound CZ #6, has been an 'average' of 122 minutes late arriving in DEN. 122 minutes is 2 hours.

Source: http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/cgi-bin/train.cgi

Question...

1. When are we going to get back to the good old days of the CZ # 5 being 2 - 3 hours late in DEN. ?

A related problem for new passengers originating in DEN, is they do not know to check if the train is on time,

they get to the DEN station assuming the train is on time. Our Trails and Rails people have had numerous reports of

this problem from passengers.... this summer.

Amtrak has to do a better job of communicating to check if your train is on time... especially to first time passengers.

Peter Richards

Boulder, CO.


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## AlanB (Aug 25, 2011)

Peter,

If you send me an email to Alanb @ the board's address minus the "discuss" part, I can help you sort through the password issues.


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## anir dendroica (Aug 25, 2011)

In answer to question #1, major delays should end when the flood-damaged BNSF St. Joseph Sub reopens, currently projected to be mid-September.


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## darien-l (Aug 25, 2011)

Hi Peter,

I'm in Boulder myself this summer, and have used the CZ often for many years. I completely understand your frustration: the mess this summer is by far the worst I've ever seen. On the few days when things go well, the Omaha detour results in a delay of only about 3 hours for the #5. However, most days, things do not go well, and there are a couple of other 3-hour delays along the route, for reasons that I'm not entirely clear about (freight congestion, equipment failures, speed restrictions, delays in departure from point of origin due to insufficient time to clean/service/repair the train between runs have all been mentioned, though). I was hoping that the situation would improve as the summer progressed and the Omaha situation stabilized, but instead, things have gotten worse, to the point where it's normal for the #5 to roll into Denver 12 hours late and cross the Rockies after dark.

I sympathize with first-time travelers who get up early in the morning and arrive in time for the advertised 8:05 am departure, only to find their train is 12 hours late. Coupled with Denver's new (and hard to find) temporary Amtrak station, I can understand that it can very confusing and frustrating.

Does anyone here have any further insights as to what's going on with CZ?


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## darien-l (Aug 25, 2011)

While we're on this topic, here are some other frustrating things and evidence that Amtrak is handling this poorly:

1) There is no "service alert" on the Amtrak website about the Omaha detour. If you try to book Chicago to Denver, for example, there's no warning whatsoever that your train is *guaranteed* to be at least 3 hours late.

2) If you check train status through Amtrak, the Omaha detour is never factored into estimated arrival times. For example, if you check train status for tommorow's #5 into Denver right now, it cheerfully says: "Estimated Arrival Time: on time." The #5 hasn't arrived on time into Denver for well over 2 months now! I would wager any amount of money that it won't arrive on time tomorrow either.


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## anir dendroica (Aug 26, 2011)

darien-l said:


> While we're on this topic, here are some other frustrating things and evidence that Amtrak is handling this poorly:
> 
> 1) There is no "service alert" on the Amtrak website about the Omaha detour. If you try to book Chicago to Denver, for example, there's no warning whatsoever that your train is *guaranteed* to be at least 3 hours late.
> 
> 2) If you check train status through Amtrak, the Omaha detour is never factored into estimated arrival times. For example, if you check train status for tommorow's #5 into Denver right now, it cheerfully says: "Estimated Arrival Time: on time." The #5 hasn't arrived on time into Denver for well over 2 months now! I would wager any amount of money that it won't arrive on time tomorrow either.


#1: There is such an alert actually, but it is unfortunately hard to find: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&p=1237608345018&cid=1248544305307

#2: The Omaha detour is actually a shortcut, so there is nothing about the detour per se that is making trains late. As evidence, check out this status file from June, just after the detour began but before the flooding really got bad: http://72.148.42.113:8080/scripts/archivefinder.pl?seltrain=5&selyear=2011&selmonth=06&selday=18

As I have mentioned in several threads, the extreme lateness is due to a lack a fluidity on the BNSF line across Iowa/eastern Nebraska caused by detouring freight trains (mostly coal). While Amtrak "knows" that the train will be delayed, they have no way of estimating exactly how much time a given train will lose so it's hard to factor it in. Things should get better around mid-September when the BNSF line from Lincoln to Kansas City reopens.

Mark


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## michele swanson (Aug 26, 2011)

Hello, I am a guest and this is directed to Peter Richards, the Trails & Rails volunteer. Does the program extend thru Color Sunday? I am taking a "first timer" WB on the CZ Mon. 9/12 and EB on Fri. 9/16. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you, Michele Swanson

(returning home to GJ CO)


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## DEN Trails & Rails (Aug 26, 2011)

michele swanson said:


> Hello, I am a guest and this is directed to Peter Richards, the Trails & Rails volunteer. Does the program extend thru Color Sunday? I am taking a "first timer" WB on the CZ Mon. 9/12 and EB on Fri. 9/16. Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thank you, Michele Swanson
> 
> (returning home to GJ CO)



Michele...

The Denver - Grand Junction program ends on Labor Day weekend.

The last trips in each direction will be on the Sat - Sunday weekend, 3 - 4 Sept, if the train is not too late.

If the train is more than 6 hours late, in either direction, we do not go.

It is tough to point out scenery outside when it is dark...

Cheers, Peter Richards


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## michele swanson (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you Peter for your response. While I thought Labor Day might be the end of your program, I had hopes of it going thru Color Sunday.

After yesterday's delay - 8/25 and today's accident in NE - 8/26....I was also hoping for the "normal" 3-6 hour delays.

Thanks again. I appreciate your volunteer even if I can't experience it firsthand.

Michele Swanson


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## AlanB (Aug 26, 2011)

DEN Trails & Rails said:


> It is tough to point out scenery outside when it is dark...


Don't they give you guys flashlights? :lol: :lol:


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 30, 2011)

According to a post on trainorders.com Amtrak is calling people with reservations on the CZ#5 and #6 and telling them that Service is Disrupted until Sept. 10th due to the Derailment on this Line!!!  This really makes no sense I think, what's Really going on with the Zephyrs???? :help:


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## Ispolkom (Aug 30, 2011)

I looked at amtrak.com, and the first time you can book a ticket Chicago-Denver is September 10. It does look bad for the Zephyr.


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## yarrow (Aug 30, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> According to a post on trainorders.com Amtrak is calling people with reservations on the CZ#5 and #6 and telling them that Service is Disrupted until Sept. 10th due to the Derailment on this Line!!!  This really makes no sense I think, what's going really going on with the Zephyrs???? :help:


it would sure be nice if amtrak would let its customers and subsidizers know what is going on. what is wrong with the managment of amtrak?


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## George B (Aug 30, 2011)

Temporary loss of at least three locos, permanent loss of several Superliner cars, residual delays from trackwork and repair from floods, constant need to bus passengers and crew, turning the train short of the terminus, horrible OTP that also delays connecting trains such as the CS, and the deaths of passengers and an employee in June.....it makes sense that Amtrak would suspend service until they can improve most of these factors.

Beech Grove does not have the work force and other resources to quickly restore all of the damaged equipment that has been piling up this year. They may not have full trainsets for the CZ at the moment. God knows they are running short of motive power as well.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 30, 2011)

Amtrak has lost immediate use of a lot of hardware here in 2011. In addition they may be suffering prolonged downtime of otherwise usable or reparable hardware while transit investigators and insurance adjusters inspect it. In addition to that they now have a huge mess in the North East to resolve. Frankly, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if they've simply reached their limit of how many emergencies they can address at once and how many routes they can supply with enough hardware to run a full schedule at this moment. It's not like they had a huge reserve _before_ this latest string of accidents and incidents and it's only gotten _worse_ week after week, month after month.


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## Ben_G (Aug 30, 2011)

I haven't got a call yet and we are scheduled on the CZ on the 4th west and the 8th back east. Would be nice to know whats up.


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## ChrisJ (Aug 30, 2011)

Amtrak Customer Relations says the Zephyr WILL run starting on Sept. 2, but they have blocked the inventory thru the 9th to try to accomodate those who were affected by the cancellations. I just got off the phone with them.


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## ChrisJ (Aug 30, 2011)

Also, the BNSF website indicates that the St. Joseph's subdivision will be back in service on Sept. 3. That should relieve most of the congestion that the Zephyr has been encountering in Iowa & Nebraska.


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## Henry Kisor (Aug 30, 2011)

If Queen Elizabeth were reading this thread, she'd probably say that for the Zephyr this year has been an annus horribilis.


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## Ben_G (Aug 30, 2011)

What ChrisJ said....I called also and was told our reservation was still on for the 4th, I ask about getting back on the 8th and the gal I talked with laughed and said with all the problems the CZ has had....don't push it.. :lol:


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## OlympianHiawatha (Aug 30, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> Amtrak Customer Relations says the Zephyr WILL run starting on Sept. 2, but they have blocked the inventory thru the 9th to try to accomodate those who were affected by the cancellations. I just got off the phone with them.


This makes sense. When I was on the #6 CZ last month right after a 2 day shutdown, our train was every chair and room full trying to clear the backlog. In fact a big rail tour company had to charter 2 privates in SLC to get 3 days of group travel back to Chicago.


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## Acela150 (Aug 30, 2011)

ChrisJ said:


> Amtrak Customer Relations says the Zephyr WILL run starting on Sept. 2, but they have blocked the inventory thru the 9th to try to accomodate those who were affected by the cancellations. I just got off the phone with them.


Great work by Amtrak here!  Kudos to them!


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## Joeker (Aug 31, 2011)

A report on Train orders. net reports that

"Further update: Trains 5 and 6 are cancelled through September 2 origin dates; operate EMY-DEN only for origin dates

September 3-9 (train 6 departs Emeryville these dates; train 5 departs Denver one day later than these dates); at this

time through service is projected to resume with trains 5 and 6 origin dates September 10 and after. "


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## JayPea (Aug 31, 2011)

I hope the CZ can get back to some semblance of "normal" soon. What a nightmare!


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## sollins (Aug 31, 2011)

I just got my phone call. No #6 on Saturday. Agent confirms Joeker's post. Doesn't sound like there's any truth to ChrisJ info about accommodating bumped passengers first. It'd annoy me quite a bit if they did that. It's a craps game and if you roll bad, well that's it. At least you get full refund.

I think it's pretty obvious they lack equipment and probably people as well. Plus the Missouri R is still above flood stage in Omaha and won't drop below it for at least another week, judging by the gauge chart. Which means it's unlikely that the temporary levee built across the tracks will be removed anytime soon, which means they still have to bypass Omaha, which means continued bussing, which means continued unbudgeted expense. With the NE flooding added in, they just can't do it.

Too bad, I was really looking forward to the trip. Now I get to eat lunch in the Houston airport. Blah!


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## John-MCPO-USN (Aug 31, 2011)

I have a trip on #5 on 20Sep2011......hopefully everything will have cleared up by then.....(maybe)......


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## Ben_G (Aug 31, 2011)

Then what your saying is what the CS agent told me about our trip west CHI to RNO on the #5 for Sunday 4th that it will run as scheduled is false. I haven't got a call or a email yet from Amtrak saying any differant.

If I don't get a call by saturday, I have to leave home at around 9pm then when I get to CDL I better check with the agent before printing tickets. Don't plan to ride a bus anywhere east or west on this trip so someone better have the scoop saturday night.

Also the track in the area of the derailment was back in shape in 20 hours. Still have some more welding work to do but they have lowered the speed limit on that section to 25mph.


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## Ben_G (Sep 1, 2011)

Amtrak just called....strange, they called to say no service from Reno to Chicago on the 8th of Sept....Thats the last part of our trip. Nothing about the first part from Chicago to Reno on the 4th. I called Amtrak CS and ask what the deal was. I was told the #6 was only running to Denver east bound and there would be no west bound #5 untill NEXT month out of Chicago. She used the flooding as an excuse.

At least I got the call a couple days ahead of time rather then the day before.


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## George B (Sep 1, 2011)

Guess that explains why you can’t book #5 out of Chicago for any day in September. I don’t have an update from my sources yet, but I am guessing they are finally out of equipment for making up trains…..and the two locos that were damaged a few weeks ago were probably the tipping point.


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## hello (Sep 1, 2011)

... speaking as someone who has had the "Amtrak call", I'm sorry ... how disappointing for you ....


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## Ben_G (Sep 1, 2011)

Wife is not a happy camper.... :angry:


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## The Journalist (Sep 1, 2011)

Wait...no 5's out of Chicago for all of September? Yikes!


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## Ben_G (Sep 1, 2011)

The Journalist said:


> Wait...no 5's out of Chicago for all of September? Yikes!


Checked the website and that seems to be the fact. The first #5 available out of Chicago is the first week of Oct. It read's SOLD OUT up till that week.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 1, 2011)

Ben_G said:


> Amtrak just called....strange, they called to say no service from Reno to Chicago on the 8th of Sept....Thats the last part of our trip. Nothing about the first part from Chicago to Reno on the 4th. I called Amtrak CS and ask what the deal was. I was told the #6 was only running to Denver east bound and there would be no west bound #5 untill NEXT month out of Chicago. She used the flooding as an excuse.
> 
> At least I got the call a couple days ahead of time rather then the day before.


That is too bad. Maybe you get from/to DEN and LAJ by :help: bus :help: and catch 3 & 4 to salvage your trip?

I noticed that Amtrak has removed the Passenger Service Notice for 5 & 6 that dealt with delays around OMA because of the flooding, but has NOT posted an alert or advisory about the cancelling of 5 & 6 east of DEN. Maybe they are waiting until they have contacted all affected booked passengers before posting an alert, so that customer service does not get slammed with those folks in addition to those still impacted by the troubles in the East. :unsure: On the other hand, maybe it is more of the same of Amtrak being slow to post timely alerts and notices on the website. :wacko:


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## yarrow (Sep 1, 2011)

typical amtrak managment behavior. whatever their reasons or excuses are


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## CHamilton (Sep 1, 2011)

Posted on Facebook:

*SOME AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE TO RESUME*

by Amtrak on Thursday, September 1, 2011 at 1:55pmTrains 5 & 6 to operate between California and Colorado this weekend

CHICAGO – Daily service by the Amtrak California Zephyr between San Francisco Bay Area and Denver will resume this weekend, effective with the departure of eastbound Train 6 from Emeryville, Calif., on Sept. 3, and the westbound Train 5 from Denver on Sept. 4.

Direct train service between Denver and Chicago will continue to be suspended between Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, until a date to be announced later this month. The BNSF Railway Co. continues to make repairs to massive flood damage near Omaha that had led to a detour route resulting in lengthy delays to Amtrak service across Nebraska and Iowa.

Amtrak service for the full California Zephyr route has been suspended since Aug. 26, when a portion of a construction crane at a grain elevator obstructed the BNSF Railway Co., tracks and caused an Amtrak train to become disabled near Benkelman, Neb. That suspension allowed Amtrak to deploy equipment and crews to resume this limited California Zephyr service.

Amtrak regrets any inconvenience. Passengers who have paid for travel on canceled trains can contact Amtrak to receive refunds without fee or penalty or can rebook for future travel. If tickets have not yet printed, the refund/rebook can be done on Amtrak.com or the free Amtrak iPhone “app."


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 1, 2011)

CHamilton said:


> Posted on Facebook:
> 
> *SOME AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE TO RESUME*
> 
> ...


Nice that they post it on Facebook. However, it should be posted on the website first. Amtrak should understand this. That was the point of linking the Amtrak and AGR websites. What, folks are supposed to surf the web to get thier answers about what Amtrak is up to? :excl: But, OTOH, that is how I found AU! :giggle:


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## jis (Sep 1, 2011)

From _Amtrak _(as posted on _Facebook _and at other places):



> SOME AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE TO RESUME
> 
> by Amtrak on Thursday, September 1, 2011 at 3:55pm
> 
> ...


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## George B (Sep 1, 2011)

Where is the end to the bad news about the CZ?

Just got off the phone with a colleague who hinted that Amtrak is rapidly revisiting the concept of permanently running the CZ only as far east as DEN, and either bus-bridging to the SWC to get to CHI, or bringing back the Denver Zephyr from days of old to cover DEN to CHI. DZ would not be daily. Apparently, this has been looked at many times over the years, but the concept grew legs again this week.

Makes me wonder if the 30-day halt in DEN-CHI service is being carefully viewed as a viability test.


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## eagle628 (Sep 1, 2011)

George B said:


> Just got off the phone with a colleague who hinted that Amtrak is rapidly revisiting the concept of permanently running the CZ only as far east as DEN, and either bus-bridging to the SWC to get to CHI, or bringing back the Denver Zephyr from days of old to cover DEN to CHI. DZ would not be daily. Apparently, this has been looked at many times over the years, but the concept grew legs again this week.
> 
> Makes me wonder if the 30-day halt in DEN-CHI service is being carefully viewed as a viability test.


They _cannot_ be serious. CHI-DEN is the most popular section of that route, they have to add extra cars just between those two stations to satisfy demand in peak season. And they want to DROP daily service? What the hell are these people smoking?! :help:


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 1, 2011)

Ben_G said:


> Amtrak just called....strange, they called to say no service from Reno to Chicago on the 8th of Sept....Thats the last part of our trip. Nothing about the first part from Chicago to Reno on the 4th. I called Amtrak CS and ask what the deal was. I was told the #6 was only running to Denver east bound and there would be no west bound #5 untill NEXT month out of Chicago. She used the flooding as an excuse.
> 
> At least I got the call a couple days ahead of time rather then the day before.


Having just read your posts in this thread: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/42275-5-6-service-disruption/ I can understand why you - and your wife - are upset. The information you got from 1-800-USARAIL sure seems like deliberate misinformation when what people are posting online BEFORE you called contradicts what you were told. It may be S.O.P. in today's world for companies to pull these kind of stunts, but it does leave a bad taste in one's mouth when it appears you can see right through them. Disruptions and cancellations would be a less bitter pill to swallow if one was not left feeling lied to. Maybe Julie's last name is Information, and she is single? :giggle:

>

>

>

>

>

>

Hence: Miss Information hboy:


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 1, 2011)

George B said:


> Where is the end to the bad news about the CZ?
> 
> Just got off the phone with a colleague who hinted that Amtrak is rapidly revisiting the concept of permanently running the CZ only as far east as DEN, and either bus-bridging to the SWC to get to CHI, or bringing back the Denver Zephyr from days of old to cover DEN to CHI. DZ would not be daily. Apparently, this has been looked at many times over the years, but the concept grew legs again this week.
> 
> Makes me wonder if the 30-day halt in DEN-CHI service is being carefully viewed as a viability test.


IS that a LIMITED SUNSET or not?


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## George B (Sep 1, 2011)

If I remember correctly, when Amtrak took over in 1971, the City of San Francisco (which was not being run by Amtrak) was not daily, but the Denver Zephyr was. So, this would be a reverse of that.

I would think that if they were seriously going to bus-bridge with the SWC at Trinidad, they would have to put more equipment in to the SWC’s consist, either as part of the full trainset, or have cars set-out or cut-in at someplace like ABQ.

Before reactions get too crazy, I do want to remind folks that I was told this was being CONSIDERED, and has to be taken with a grain of salt at this point.


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## NY Penn (Sep 1, 2011)

If that rumor is true, which I highly doubt, why not do a TE-style system: Daily east of Denver, triweekly the train continues to Emeryville.


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## JayPea (Sep 1, 2011)

I hope they get the CZ up and running on its full route by October 1st. It would throw a big wrench into the plans of many of the folks who are traveling to/from the gathering in Seattle on the CZ if not. I'm lucky, I guess, I live so close to Seattle that I have several options should the EB not be running for whatever reason. And given the rotten luck the EB and Amtrak in general have had, I won't hold my breath until I'm actually on the EB headed west out of Spokane! :unsure:


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 1, 2011)

CHamilton said:


> Posted on Facebook:
> 
> *SOME AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE TO RESUME*
> 
> ...


Now what is going on between Chicago and Burlington? Perhaps we need to start a rumor that Amtrak is trying to reacquire all the original Burlington "Silver" equipment and bring us a 1950s _*Zephyr*_ with 5 BIG DOMES! :lol:


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## John-MCPO-USN (Sep 1, 2011)

Well----when I made my Train Odyssey plans way back in March, I would have NEVER guessed that #5 would be cancelled for an entire month (late---yes, but cancelled---no). There is just no planning for that.

So, now my entire trip is in jeopardy (JAX-DC #98, DC-CHI #51, then the cancelled CHI-SAC #5, SAC-SEA #14, 2 days in SEA, then SEA-CHI #8, CHI-DC #30 and finally DC-JAX #97-----used RAIL PASS and Sleepers on all legs).

What to do?? Rent a car and drive from CHI to SAC? Try the SWC to LA, then attempt to re-book my sleeper on #14 from LA vice SAC? Fly from CHI-DEN (I hate flying)? Or, just get all my money back, re-group....and try again (last resort).

I am a huge AMTRAK fan----and understand the unforseen situation----but, I've been looking forward to this adventure----well before I booked it in March.

John


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 1, 2011)

George B said:


> Where is the end to the bad news about the CZ?
> 
> Just got off the phone with a colleague who hinted that Amtrak is rapidly revisiting the concept of permanently running the CZ only as far east as DEN, and either bus-bridging to the SWC to get to CHI, or bringing back the Denver Zephyr from days of old to cover DEN to CHI. DZ would not be daily. Apparently, this has been looked at many times over the years, but the concept grew legs again this week.
> 
> Makes me wonder if the 30-day halt in DEN-CHI service is being carefully viewed as a viability test.


I find this hard to believe. The Chicago-Denver section is the heaviest used portion of the route. Breaking the route in two would seem to be self defeating. and running the Chi end of the train less than daily? The Zephyr's current problems are caused by an act of nature, not some inherent problem with the route.

I don't know what your sources are smoking, but it must be some pretty heavy stuff.


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## ChrisJ (Sep 1, 2011)

I got the call tonight that my res for 9/6 Chi>Emy is canceled, after being told yesterday that it would run. Got rebooked on the SWC in a family bedroom (I had a bedroom on the CZ) connecting to the Starlight. Now my problem is figuring out a return on 9/16, since sleepers are pretty scarce.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 1, 2011)

John-MCPO-USN said:


> Well----when I made my Train Odyssey plans way back in March, I would have NEVER guessed that #5 would be cancelled for an entire month (late---yes, but cancelled---no). There is just no planning for that.
> 
> So, now my entire trip is in jeopardy (JAX-DC #98, DC-CHI #51, then the cancelled CHI-SAC #5, SAC-SEA #14, 2 days in SEA, then SEA-CHI #8, CHI-DC #30 and finally DC-JAX #97-----used RAIL PASS and Sleepers on all legs).
> 
> ...


Not a lot of domestic flying fans on here John!  First choice would be to check on rebboking the SWC CHI-LAX/CS LAX-SEA. Second would be to "fly"( a four letter word here!) Chicago-Denver, ride the Zephyr to SAC, the best scenery is between Denver and Sacramento!!! I wouldnt drive that trip, but it would beat Cancelling  the rest of a "Dream Trip"! Check it out on Amsnag or Amtrak.com and try to rebbok the CHI-LAX-SEA portion!


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## John-MCPO-USN (Sep 1, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Not a lot of domestic flying fans on here John!  First choice would be to check on rebboking the SWC CHI-LAX/CS LAX-SEA. Second would be to "fly"( a four letter word here!) Chicago-Denver, ride the Zephyr to SAC, the best scenery is between Denver and Sacramento!!! I wouldnt drive that trip, but it would beat Cancelling  the rest of a "Dream Trip"! Check it out on Amsnag or Amtrak.com and try to rebbok the CHI-LAX-SEA portion!


I hateeee flying.....but, looking at my options----I think I really only have 2:

1. Since #5 is running from DEN to SAC, and a Southwest flight from Midway to Denver is only $115 bucks, I could just fly to DEN....spend 2 days in Denver----then, continue my journey.

2. Or, since I added a 2 day buffer in SEA to see friends/family.....I could drop one day off from SEA and add it to LA - - do the SWC from CHI to LA, stay 1 night (since the connection to #14 is tight----like 120min), then continue with my journey to SEA.

You are correct----driving is out.....just to far and not enough time (and to much extra money).

I'm calling AMTRAK in the morning to see what they offer (as far as a refund for the sleeper portion from CHI to DEN......since I am on a rail pass, I don't expect any refund of the rail fare (just the sleeper)......we'll see.

And, I agree with you-----the scenery from DEN to SAC is the best part of the entire trip.

John


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## George B (Sep 1, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> I find this hard to believe. The Chicago-Denver section is the heaviest used portion of the route. Breaking the route in two would seem to be self defeating. and running the Chi end of the train less than daily? The Zephyr's current problems are caused by an act of nature, not some inherent problem with the route.
> 
> I don't know what your sources are smoking, but it must be some pretty heavy stuff.


I find it hard to believe, too. But Amtrak makes decisions that baffle me all of the time. It could just be a threat designed to stir up the politics of the route. It’s been a very bad year for the CZ, and perhaps some of the powers-that-be are threatening to throw in the towel. I have said it a million times…..politics allows Amtrak’s LD trains to exist, not ridership. Right now, they don’t have the equipment and a reliable route to run the full train. In 30 days, they should have the equipment back, but the route will only be a little better than it is now.

It’s a shame, and I hope they are not serious about cutting the route in half. I’ve got three more trips on the CZ this year, and one was already cancelled for the end of September. I figured that at least one of the trips in November or December would get cancelled because of weather. So, now I am just hoping to get in at least one trip.


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## RailFanLNK (Sep 1, 2011)

Well, I hope its all just "rumor". We are taking the Zephyr to Chicago on Friday September 30th for our first taste of "Big 10" football games. We are meeting up with my stepdaughter from the University of Minnesota and my stepson from Las Vegas NV. We are either meeting up in CHI or Madison. We plan on a rental car out of MKE to Madison. I have been pushing taking the train to Big 10 games to anyone who will listen. I just hope our "first" game isn't cancelled (Amtrak wise) and that it all ends up ok. I don't care if we are late, I've already expected that but to cancel the whole route would just be a travesty.


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## ColdRain&Snow (Sep 2, 2011)

John -- I feel your pain on the release of this news today. As soon as I read the 10/1 restoration date over on TO, my mind began to race as I too have an origin-to-terminus trip on the CZ that falls in the middle of my journey. I decided on doing the air bridge between Chicago and Denver so I could still enjoy the majority of the CZ trip through the Rockies/Sierras. When I called Amtrak this evening to book the new DEN to EMY segment, I was a bit startled to hear that there was literally one room left (#19) in the Transition Sleeper for the day of travel I needed to keep the rest of the trip intact.

Definitely call first thing tomorrow as I imagine many people like us are scrambling to rejigger their plans. Good luck to you, and please post back about how it all turned out. -Jeff


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## anir dendroica (Sep 2, 2011)

I have to assume that Amtrak has finally run up against a wall in terms of equipment shortage, and that they need most of the cars from the derailed train in Nebraska in order to resume service on the full route. Most of those cars likely have minor damage which can be repaired within a month. I could understand canceling due to the flooding but to operate through the worst of it and then stop just when it is about to get better (BNSF St. Joseph sub is reopening in two days) seems pretty silly.

Mark


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## trainviews (Sep 2, 2011)

George B said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > I find this hard to believe. The Chicago-Denver section is the heaviest used portion of the route. Breaking the route in two would seem to be self defeating. and running the Chi end of the train less than daily? The Zephyr's current problems are caused by an act of nature, not some inherent problem with the route.
> ...


While I agree with politics running the LD's, I really think that suggestion would be getting the priorities wrong between one-route-small-politics and overall political goals. Strategically Amtrak's goal should be to be as relevant a transportation opportunity to as many people as possible. Looking at the CZ route west of Denver a very large part of the riders are probably there for the famously scenic ride. East of Denver it caters to a much broader set of transportation needs, connecting several reasonably close population centers. The higher demand is a function of this.

Now cutting the eastern part wholly or partly will dump that segment of riders. Even a tri-weekly would be largely irrelevant to any other riders than people on a flexible holiday schedule. And while they might keep to fill the remaining train, many of them are not locals and holidays can have many destinations. There's not much "need to have". On the other hand people going home on weekend from college or visiting Granny on an overnight stop will probably travel anyway, but have to find other, less convenient or more expensive options. Amtrak will just make itself irrelevant to a whole new part of the country, and that is long term very dangerous for political support. But then again Amtrak has been doing a lot of "one congressman happy at a time"-politics over the years, leading to some of the absurdities of the current system...

And on another note: a strategy to get *more *tri-weeklies is plain stupid too. They are impossible to run economically, and it would be begging to get a cost recovery ratio on par with the abysmal SSL or Cardinal. And cost recovery does matter politically too as well as economically...


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## John-MCPO-USN (Sep 2, 2011)

ColdRain&Snow said:


> John -- I feel your pain on the release of this news today. As soon as I read the 10/1 restoration date over on TO, my mind began to race as I too have an origin-to-terminus trip on the CZ that falls in the middle of my journey. I decided on doing the air bridge between Chicago and Denver so I could still enjoy the majority of the CZ trip through the Rockies/Sierras. When I called Amtrak this evening to book the new DEN to EMY segment, I was a bit startled to hear that there was literally one room left (#19) in the Transition Sleeper for the day of travel I needed to keep the rest of the trip intact.
> 
> Definitely call first thing tomorrow as I imagine many people like us are scrambling to rejigger their plans. Good luck to you, and please post back about how it all turned out. -Jeff


Jeff

Heeding your advice and my plans to call AMTRAK this AM-----I did, and it was a pleasant experience. I was on hold for like < 30secs....and the CSR was extremely helpful. She refunded the CHI-DEN sleeper portion ($119), and stated that my sleeper on #5 from DEN to SAC was not at risk (they still held it), until AMTRAK talked with me. Since I am already paid for the sleeper, AMTRAK did not cancel it from DEN-SAC, without talking with me first.

So, I am doing the "air-bridge" from CHI MIDWAY to DEN (looks like there is a CHI METRO stop at Midway---so, I should be able to get from Union Station to the Airport with ease), and spending 2 nights in Denver. Southwest flies from MIDWAY to DEN for $99 to $115 bucks, so it is very do-able, I just have to make up the costs of staying in Denver for two nights (looking at the Residence Inn downtown), and having to make the walk to the temporary station.

Yes, it is an inconvience----and I hate flying.....but maybe it is a blessing in disguise, because with all the disruptions on #5, I don't think I had a good chance of seeing the Rockies with all the delays......now, I am pretty certain that #5 will run on time and will get to enjoy the scenery.

I might rent a car for that one day in Denver, and railfan the Moffat Road.......I haven't done that since 1993!

John


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## MrFSS (Sep 2, 2011)

John-MCPO-USN said:


> So, I am doing the "air-bridge" from CHI MIDWAY to DEN (looks like there is a CHI METRO stop at Midway



From Union Station in Chicago - walk east to the El Orange Line at the loop. It goes right to Midway Airport. I don't think METRA (you said METRO) goes to Midway.


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## pennyk (Sep 2, 2011)

John, I did the almost identical trip August/September 2010 (except from Orlando, but on the same trains). I am looking back and am very grateful that I did that trip last year instead of this year - which would have been a mess due to hurricane cancellations and the CZ issues. I feel your pain!!


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## yarrow (Sep 2, 2011)

it is sure too bad for folks who have trips planned. as my wife says "that's the problem with amtrak. you are never sure they will get you to your destination or if they will get you home." amtrak has lost credibility as a transportation company. they are a train ride company like the narrow gague tourist lines in colorado. though with worse otp.


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## amamba (Sep 2, 2011)

yarrow said:


> it is sure too bad for folks who have trips planned. as my wife says "that's the problem with amtrak. you are never sure they will get you to your destination or if they will get you home." amtrak has lost credibility as a transportation company. they are a train ride company like the narrow gague tourist lines in colorado. though with worse otp.


I find service to be incredibly reliable, convenient and on time when traveling to NYC from BOS/PVD. I do it almost once a month. I think they are a very reliable transportation company.


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## cirdan (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm booked to ride the train in November. I hope everything will be back to normal by then.


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## DEN Trails & Rails (Sep 2, 2011)

Date: Friday, 2 Sept. 2011, 8:30 am, MDT

Here is the press release from Amtrak, about the resumption of CZ train service, or rather some CZ service...

Peter Richards

-----Original Message-----

From: Amtrak Media Relations <[email protected]>

Sent: Thu, Sep 1, 2011 7:29 pm

Subject: Amtrak News Release: SOME AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE TO RESUME

The following news release is issued today by Amtrak Media Relations. It will

be available soon in the News & Media Section of Amtrak.com.

____________________________________________________________________________

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

September 1, 2011

ATK-11-118

Contact: Marc Magliari

312 880.5390

SOME AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE TO RESUME

Trains 5 & 6 to operate between California and Colorado this weekend

CHICAGO - Daily service by the Amtrak California Zephyr between San Francisco

Bay Area and Denver will resume this weekend, effective with the departure of

eastbound Train 6 from Emeryville, Calif., on Sept. 3, and the westbound Train 5

from Denver on Sept. 4.

Direct train service between Denver and Chicago will continue to be suspended

between Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, until a date to be announced

later this month. The BNSF Railway Co. continues to make repairs to massive

flood damage near Omaha that had led to a detour route resulting in lengthy

delays to Amtrak service across Nebraska and Iowa.

Amtrak service for the full California Zephyr route has been suspended since

Aug. 26, when a portion of a construction crane at a grain elevator obstructed

the BNSF Railway Co., tracks and caused an Amtrak train to become disabled near

Benkelman, Neb. That suspension allowed Amtrak to deploy equipment and crews to

resume this limited California Zephyr service.

Amtrak regrets any inconvenience. Passengers who have paid for travel on

canceled trains can contact Amtrak to receive refunds without fee or penalty or

can rebook for future travel. If tickets have not yet printed, the

refund/rebook can be done on Amtrak.com or the free Amtrak iPhone "app."

About Amtrak®:

Celebrating 40 years of dedicated service as America's Railroad(sm), Amtrak is

the nation's intercity passenger rail provider and its only high-speed rail

operator. A record 28.7 million passengers traveled on Amtrak in FY 2010 on

more than 300 daily trains - at speeds up to 150 mph (241 kph) - that connect 46

states, the District of Columbia and three Canadian Provinces. Amtrak operates

trains in partnership with 15 states and four commuter rail agencies. Amtrak

also is a strong financial performer achieving an 85 percent cost-recovery ratio

in FY 2010. Enjoy the journey(sm) at Amtrak.com or call 800-USA-RAIL for

schedules, fares and more information. Join us on facebook.com/Amtrak and

follow us at twitter.com/Amtrak

# # #


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## Trogdor (Sep 2, 2011)

Can we combine the three or four different Zephyr cancellation threads into one? Would be much easier to track.


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## MrFSS (Sep 2, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> Can we combine the three or four different Zephyr cancellation threads into one? Would be much easier to track.


Done - I agree - please post all CZ disruption info in this thread rather than starting new ones.


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## ColdRain&Snow (Sep 2, 2011)

John-MCPO-USN said:


> Jeff
> 
> Heeding your advice and my plans to call AMTRAK this AM-----I did, and it was a pleasant experience. I was on hold for like < 30secs....and the CSR was extremely helpful. She refunded the CHI-DEN sleeper portion ($119), and stated that my sleeper on #5 from DEN to SAC was not at risk (they still held it), until AMTRAK talked with me. Since I am already paid for the sleeper, AMTRAK did not cancel it from DEN-SAC, without talking with me first.
> 
> ...


I'm glad that your plans have recalibrated successfully. When I had the agent pull up my itinerary, I just assumed that my train had been canceled and asked her if I could still keep the same room # for DEN to EMY that I had scheduled for the full route. That's when she mentioned that there was only one room left, but based on your experience, maybe she was just not up to speed on whether my original room was still under my name for the DEN to EMY segment. She did mention that yesterday was full of new developments for them. Sensing urgency, I booked into the Trans Dorm which I have tended to enjoy on past trips so it all worked out in the end.

And I really hadn't given thought yet to the delay implications but that's a great point. We'll be well rested and ready at DEN for boarding and the train's timekeeping should be much better. If others contact Amtrak about their CZ plans for this month, please post your experiences here so we can see how the situation evolves.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 2, 2011)

cirdan said:


> I'm booked to ride the train in November. I hope everything will be back to normal by then.


 Same here.


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## michele swanson (Sep 2, 2011)

Hello...Michele, again. I just spoke w/Virginia @ Amtrak 800.872.7245. She told me they are no longer busing travellers around the IA-NE flood/track repair area, BUT rerouting instead. We can stay on the train for entire RT from CHI to GJT on 9/11-9/16. God Bless Virginia and Amtrak!!! Thanks for all of you assistance. This should be a good trip. Wonder what reroute they will take! Thanks again. Michele


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## ColdRain&Snow (Sep 2, 2011)

michele swanson said:


> Hello...Michele, again. I just spoke w/Virginia @ Amtrak 800.872.7245. She told me they are no longer busing travellers around the IA-NE flood/track repair area, BUT rerouting instead. We can stay on the train for entire RT from CHI to GJT on 9/11-9/16. God Bless Virginia and Amtrak!!! Thanks for all of you assistance. This should be a good trip. Wonder what reroute they will take! Thanks again. Michele


This doesn't make sense to me as Amtrak just put out a press release last night that cited the following:

_*Direct train service between Denver and Chicago will continue to be suspended *_

_*between Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, until a date to be announced *_

_*later this month. *__The BNSF Railway Co. continues to make repairs to massive _

_flood damage near Omaha that had led to a detour route resulting in lengthy _

_delays to Amtrak service across Nebraska and Iowa. _

_ _

With GJT well past Denver, I'm pretty sure that this trip will not be possible for the rest of September. You may want to call back and get a second opinion.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 2, 2011)

_Direct __*train service between Denver and Chicago will continue to be suspended *__between __*Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, until a date to be announced later this month. *_

_* *_

_*Could this mean they're detouring the CHI - DEN portion of the train between these to stations and maybe only running to DEN and back (so as not to delay the DEN-EMY portion)? Just curious.*_


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## NY Penn (Sep 2, 2011)

Why would they do that?


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## ColdRain&Snow (Sep 2, 2011)

AmtrakBlue said:


> _Direct __*train service between Denver and Chicago will continue to be suspended *__between __*Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, until a date to be announced later this month. *_
> 
> _* *_
> 
> _*Could this mean they're detouring the CHI - DEN portion of the train between these to stations and maybe only running to DEN and back (so as not to delay the DEN-EMY portion)? Just curious.*_


If you do a test booking, you can see that CHI to DEN is SO for the rest of the month. I fear that Michele received misinformation from the agent, so hopefully she can call back and get things sorted.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Sep 2, 2011)

AmtrakBlue said:


> _Direct __*train service between Denver and Chicago will continue to be suspended *__between __*Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, until a date to be announced later this month. *_
> 
> _* *_
> 
> _*Could this mean they're detouring the CHI - DEN portion of the train between these to stations and maybe only running to DEN and back (so as not to delay the DEN-EMY portion)? Just curious.*_


Now that you've read into it and highlighted key words, it starts to make sense. Amtrak has been losing a tonpot of money on folks missing connections because of late 5 and 6, and until the Omaha situation is cleared up, I can see them suspending all passenger stops between Denver and Burlington simply to try and stay on schedule. Maybe Amtrak has even cut a deal to reroute between those cities....


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## DEN Trails & Rails (Sep 2, 2011)

AmtrakBlue said:


> _Direct __*train service between Denver and Chicago will continue to be suspended *__between __*Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, until a date to be announced later this month. *_
> 
> _* *_
> 
> _*Could this mean they're detouring the CHI - DEN portion of the train between these to stations and maybe only running to DEN and back (so as not to delay the DEN-EMY portion)? Just curious.*_




11:15 am, MDT, Friday. 2 Sept. 2011

According to what we have figured out here in the Denver area, there will be NO train service east of Denver, for a while...

Ft. Morgan is the first stop east of DEN, so they referred to that stop, rather than DEN. (strange...)

CZ will only operate between EMY and DEN, for now.

This is a very poorly worded press release...

Here is another issue, that the poorly worded press release does not make clear...

Are they deadheading a train to DEN (from where?) to head westbound on Sunday, 4 Sept. with an on time departure, of 8:05 am. ??
Or is train # 6, turning to # 5, on Sunday, which will make it already 12 hours late ?? The answer from what we can tell is...
 
The first CZ # 6, arriving at 6:40 pm, if on time, Sunday, will turn to the westbound # 5, leaving 12 hours late, around 8 pm.
 
So much for a nice daylight trip across the mountains, west of here.
 
Peter RIchards


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## George B (Sep 2, 2011)

OK. Follow along with me……for the month of September:

All stops from, and including, EMY to DEN will have CZ service.

All stations from Fort Morgan to Burlington will not have CZ revenue service.

All stops from, and including, GBB to CHI will have service, but not necessarily the CZ.

Amtrak will still run trains from CHI to DEN from time to time, but these are for equipment and employee moves, and are not scheduled to be in revenue service.


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## yarrow (Sep 2, 2011)

amamba said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > it is sure too bad for folks who have trips planned. as my wife says "that's the problem with amtrak. you are never sure they will get you to your destination or if they will get you home." amtrak has lost credibility as a transportation company. they are a train ride company like the narrow gague tourist lines in colorado. though with worse otp.
> ...


we live on the route of the eb and travel mainly the western ld trains. the nec does look like it has good otp. as for us, we have been bustituted, abandonded and delivered to our destination up to 15 hours late by amtrak several times. when we have a trip booked are never sure if it will happen, if they will get us home and when we will arrive at our endpoints


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 2, 2011)

eagle628 said:


> They _cannot_ be serious. CHI-DEN is the most popular section of that route, they have to add extra cars just between those two stations to satisfy demand in peak season. And they want to DROP daily service? What the hell are these people smoking?!


The CZ has had an extraordinary series of accidents and incidents in a year chock full of complications and setbacks. Amtrak is likely running low on replacement hardware and has few if any alternatives to address their increasingly poor schedule keeping. They also have a federal government increasingly staffed by politicians who are overtly hostile toward passenger rail funding. We're basically talking about a perfect storm of heavily impacted operations combined with an extremely difficult budget environment. Amtrak is under as much pressure today as at any time since their first few years and will likely be looking for excuses to cut back as much as much of their money losing network as they think congress will allow. Judging by the current membership I'd say congress isn't going to be demanding much service outside of a few primary corridors where support is still strong.


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## John-MCPO-USN (Sep 2, 2011)

Jim and Jeff (and others)

Well, I knew that it wasn't going to be easy when I went to the Jacksonville Ticket Counter----to exchange the 1 Sleeper voucher (from CHI to SAC), for a new voucher (DEN to SAC) - and receive the $191 credit for the cancelled #5 out of CHI.....the agents were incredibly nice and helpful, but just could not get the new voucher to print----nor, could they figure out how to get me the $191 credit due. After numerous phone calls to DC and Phily, about 60min later, I was finally provided my new sleeper ticket for DEN to SAC and given $191 in cash as my refund (they were trying to tell me that AMTRAK was going to mail me my refund----ha ha ha ha----not falling for that). The CSR rep on the phone this AM told me she could not credit the $191 back to my card, since I still had the original sleeper voucher-----but the Agent at the station told me that was wrong---and the CSR could issue the credit. So, for those of you calling about credits---not sure if you will get it via phone or ticket office.

So, the Train Odyssey 2011 Adventure is back on, with an Air-Bridge in the middle. Departing JAX on #98 to DC on 9/20; #51 to CHI on 9/21; then the SouthWest Flight to DEN on 9/22; #5 from DEN to SAC on 9/23; #14 to SEA on 9/25; #8 to CHI on 9/27; #30 to DC on 9/30, and finally home to JAX on #97 on 10/1. If anyone is also traveling those dates/trains, let me know.

Jim and Jeff - thanks for your input...................John


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## DEN Trails & Rails (Sep 4, 2011)

Date: Sunday, 4 Sept. 2011, 8:10 am, MDT

So when will the first CZ depart EMY ?

The Amtrak press release, dated 1 Sept. 2011 said # 6 would depart EMY on Sat. 3 Sept.

From what I can see, on the Amtrak website, that never happened...

For today, the website shows a 'service disruption'. for # 6.

Calling Amtrak right now, the wait time for an agent is 10 minutes...

Why does Amtrak seem to 'hide' simple information from the paying passengers, and the public. ??

Peter Richards


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## Rufus (Sep 4, 2011)

> Why does Amtrak seem to 'hide' simple information from the paying passengers, and the public. ??

I have seen several similar thoughts here lately.

There is, of course, the conspiracy theory. But that's really not the most likely explanation.

Reporting real time status on at least 4 main channels (facebook, twitter, amtrak website, amtrak internal directives [many]) on a very large complex system (Amtrak) which changes hourly in response to unpredictable outside forces is actually quite a difficult job. For an entity which has been cut to the bone with funding reductions which eliminate every possible job position - it's unlikely they have the people, procedures and systems to do this very well.

True, it's an organizational screw up, so we can all assign blame and point fingers. But please understand that good real time info on large complex systems is NOT a no brainer - it's actually very difficult to set up and maintain. I worked as a systems analyst in banks and insurance companies in the 70's and 80's; I have been in hundreds of situations where people try to communicate and try to provide and recieve consistent info. Regardless of the time, money and highly talented and motivated people thrown at problems claiming better than 50% success would be ridiculous.

Amtrak would be well advised to clean up their public info systems. But they might not be able to do that completely right at the moment.

FWIW. Rufus


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## ColdRain&Snow (Sep 4, 2011)

This post seems to indicate that #6 was seen leaving the Bay Area yesterday. And poster GenePoon, who is a well informed TO member, also mentions that a protect trainset was deadheaded to DEN from CHI as well. Stay positive.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 4, 2011)

Submitted for consideration/opinions: With the Gathering coming up the first week in October,many of our members have reservations on the Zephyrs, both #5 and #6.

Allegedly Amtrak will start the full route sometime? around the end of Sept./start of October! :unsure: TBA!!! <_< If the Denver-CHI section is still shut down, members can rebook on the Empire Builder or the SWC/CS, IF space is available! (Its a Looooooooooong ride in Coach! :excl: :excl: :excl: )

For the return, some members have booked the EB, some the CS/CZ, some the CS/SWC, even the CS/SSL/TE. In my case, there is only One routing on a 2 Zone AGR Award, CS/CZ/Thruway/TE (SEA-EMY-GBB-SPI-AUS). Wonder if Amtrak would allow an overnight in CHI or LA on their nickel since they are the ones that might cancel the Denver-CHI section with No Alternate Transportation Provided? Inquiring minds want to know?? :help:


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## Ben_G (Sep 4, 2011)

I learned one thing....they are fast taking the money from your bank account but slow putting it back in. There was no offer to make reservations on any other route such as the EB, just we will refund and put the money back in your account, that has not happened yet.


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## DEN Trails & Rails (Sep 4, 2011)

Rufus said:


> > Why does Amtrak seem to 'hide' simple information from the paying passengers, and the public. ??
> 
> I have seen several similar thoughts here lately.
> 
> ...



Sunday, 4 Sept. 1 pm, MDT

Rufus...

Thanks for the further thoughts... about why it is so difficult for the public, and paying customers, to learn simple information from Amtrak.

My further question to you would be what are the priorities amongst the four main 'channels' you list above...

After the Amtrak 'internal directives' are taken care of, my # 2 priority would be to get the information on the website.

Agree ??

Why would you mess with facebook and twitter ?

Fixing the Amtrak public information system in not a new project.

Peter Richards


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 4, 2011)

According to a post on trainorders, most of the jobs in the crew bases between Denver and Chicago are eliminated as of Sept. 2nd!  :wacko:

Does this mean that they are layed off, or terminated or will be re-located? :unsure: A further posts asks if this means that the current practice of flying crews/OBS between CHI and Denver will be eliminated??? Will Amtrak continue to deadhead equipment and crews between Denver and CHI??? Why can't Amtrak provide valid information about this Route??? :unsure: Wouldnt want to be answering phones for AGR or Amtrak right now, probably not lots of fun in CUS or Denver's"Temporary" Station either! :help:


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## yarrow (Sep 4, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Why can't Amtrak provide valid information about this Route???


amen


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## PRR 60 (Sep 4, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> According to a post on trainorders, most of the jobs in the crew bases between Denver and Chicago are eliminated as of Sept. 2nd!  :wacko:
> 
> Does this mean that they are layed off, or terminated or will be re-located? :unsure: A further posts asks if this means that the current practice of flying crews/OBS between CHI and Denver will be eliminated??? Will Amtrak continue to deadhead equipment and crews between Denver and CHI??? Why can't Amtrak provide valid information about this Route??? :unsure: Wouldnt want to be answering phones for AGR or Amtrak right now, probably not lots of fun in CUS or Denver's"Temporary" Station either! :help:


The eliminated positions are conductors and engineers. The affected employees can either go on furlough, or temporarily relocate to another area and bump lower seniority people on another job. The Chicago-based service crews will continue to be flown to and from Denver as needed.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 4, 2011)

:hi: Thanks for the info! Makes it tough to have a regular life when you work on the Railroad where Seniority is King! :help: Hopefully this Route will be up and running by the end of the Month and everyone gets their jobs back, and the pax for the Zephyr get to ride the whole route!


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## Rufus (Sep 5, 2011)

Peter and group,

I am not an Amtrak employee, nor do I have "inside information". I did spend 15 years in IT at large institutions working with "users" and "management" trying to arrange that each provide the much needed information the other wanted to do their jobs.

Problems include:

1) The information doesn't exist to begin with. Ie. no decision has been made yet. There can be many legitimate reasons for this - and lots of the other kind. Amtrak probably suffers from this problem.

2) The information exists in multiple forms and is not consistent. The left hand and the right hand often have trouble working in concert so they just go to work individually. People who need the info and don't have it given to them to their satisfaction take it upon themselves to get it - often they get it from different sources which results in different answers to the same question depending who you talk to. IOW, info is not dependable and has to be verified and checked out 20 times to be sure.

3) Leadership doesn't have the authority or resources required to solve the problem. This leads to many "end runs" "finesses" and other wishful executive tricks trying to get the job done; many of these methods by necessity totally bypass normal info channels. This is just running in circles fighting fires while you slowly drown.

I think Amtrak suffers severely from #1 and #3; #2 also likely plays a part. It looks to me like Amtrak and particularly their executives have had the ground cut from beneath them in the resource department and they and the company are being systematically starved to death. And any decision they might want to make can be rescinded by any of the freight carriers at any moment and they have no support anywhere from anybody. IMHO it is nothing short of miraculous and a testament to a few obsessively dedicated people that amtrak works at all, at least west of Chicago. There is enough money riding the eastern coaches to give it a better chance there.

If Amtrak is to remain alive as an energy saving national transportation option it needs federal political support. Without that there is no way (nada) to address it's info problems because those problems stem directly from it's deadly fiscal wasting disease; that can only be cured with an adequet resource base AND public policy support which would allow recovery of a decent level of morale and employee support. If you want to fix Amtrak, write you legislators; apply any pressure you can.

> channels...

The social networks are part of the mix for one reason - they are dirt cheap and moderately effective. The Amtrak webpage may or may not be as easy to publish. I would guess it's not as easy if for no other reason than any manager with more than one bean over his neck tie would want to control the content of their site very carefully on pain of personal liability. This requires multiple steps to vet and authorize the content. The social media are not yet viewed as quite so delicate and one employee with a bit of good judgment could probably receive and maintain authorization to publish w/out special overview. This would make posting to the social media significantly quicker than posting to the web page. Also, the web page may be contracted out and the update procedure may take a day or more. To say nothing about the maze one has to go through to even _find_ the "services" page on the site!

Sorry for rant, but: I believe trains are a FAR superior way for the USA to move its people in the medium term and it pains me to see a huge investment in equipment and people trashed for no good reason. This is YOUR money used to build Amtrak that is going to get sold off at .10 on the dollar to the freights. If you have an opinion on this, share it with the "higher ups".

Rufus


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## lionelhoguy (Sep 5, 2011)

This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?


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## yarrow (Sep 5, 2011)

lionelhoguy said:


> This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?


others will know a lot more than i on this but i think it's a general lack of rolling stock and not specifically engines. also i think there are speed restricitions when using a freight engine even were the freight rr's to agree. i would be in favor of amtrak leasing the business cars the freight rr's have salted away. ha ha


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## lionelhoguy (Sep 5, 2011)

That makes sense, I guess you need some place to put the passengers too. I would be up for them releasing some of the old business cars for revenue service to fill some of the equipment gaps. I would probably find more time to ride then. :lol:


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## George B (Sep 5, 2011)

lionelhoguy said:


> This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?


Some things right off the bat:

Freight locos usually cannot provide proper head-end power for the train.

It costs a lot of money, as not only are you renting power, but a crew as well to run the freight locos.

Most freight railroads do not have the resources to lease power AND crews for passenger service on a regular scheduled basis. You are taking away resources they could be using for their regular customers.

Freight companies are not excited at all about having their equipment and crews involved in operating a passenger train. Their liability and chance of a lawsuit increase by a factor of about 500 or more, should something happen while they are pulling the passenger train.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 5, 2011)

George B said:


> lionelhoguy said:
> 
> 
> > This may sound like a dumb question, but why doesn't Amtrak just lease some different engines from BN/SF or other railroads to fill the power void?
> ...


Amtrak crews could operate the freight locomotives, but you would need an Amtrak locomotive in the consist to provide the head end power. Freight locomotives are not geared for passenger service, so the top speed for a train would be considerable lower, making it hard, if not impossible to keep the schedule.


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## Casinocim (Sep 5, 2011)

Last night arriving in Denver on my SWC thruway about 10:30pm, there was a train parked there at Denver(temp station). I assumed it was the CZ. Was trying to read the last page of this thread to see what was happening with the CZ.

Anyway, was this the CZ? And were there passengers on it, the train looked dead to me. It was shiny, really shiny almost as if it were new.


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## The Davy Crockett (Sep 5, 2011)

Here it is September 5th and there is still no Service Alert on Amtrak's website about the suspension of service between CHI and DEN for 5 & 6. :help: I know I've 'railed'  in this vein previously, and while I appreciate they posted something on Facebook and have a news release at the website, it seems to me that there should be ONE place where Amtrak consistently posts Service Alerts and Passenger Service Notices, and at a minimum, there should be a prominent link on the home page whenever there are 'issues' - which is almost always. Many of us here are seasoned Amtrak 'users' and know the usual places to look on amtrak.com, but nevertheless usually find that HERE - a blog that is not affiliated with Amtrak, is the best source of information. For 'newbies' and casual riders, how in the heck are they supposed to figure out what is going on? :excl:

Now I'll cross threads h34r: and say that maybe the lack of forthright, accurate or often ANY information from Amtrak is the worst part of Amtrak. :help:


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## George Harris (Sep 5, 2011)

MikefromCrete said:


> George B said:
> 
> 
> > lionelhoguy said:
> ...


Generally the freight carriers want their own engineer in the cab. There are differences. Normally most freight engines are geared for 70 mph so there is not really that much difference. The major difficulties in timekeeping would be on routes with long sections good for 79 mph, like parts of the Empire Builder route and the Silvers. Then there is the Southwest Chief route which has long segments west of Albuquerque that permit 90 mph. For a curvey route like the CZ between Denver and Salt Lake City, the difference would probably be nil.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 6, 2011)

Current Service Advisory on Amtrak.com : For service between Chicago and Denver, bookings can be made on the SWC#3/#4 to Raton,NM. The layover is like 5-6 hours, :wacko: so staffing will be extended at the Raton Station awaiting the arrival/departure of the SWC and the THRUWAY BUSSES to/from Denver! The way the thruways are scheduled, pax would have to spend the night in Denver to catch either the CZ#5 Westbound, or if coming off #6, to catch the Thruway to Raton the next morning!  No mention of being put up on Amtraks nickel?? Bookings to California still seem more prudent on the SWC/TE-Sunset/ or the EB!

Has anyone booked this Routing yet or have any further info??? :help:


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## rlaggren (Sep 6, 2011)

I have re-booked to Chicago through Portland from San Francisco, 9-20ish IIRC (too much scanning webpages - it's all a blur...). It looks plausible; too bad going through so many mountains at night and I'll probably be dead meat from lack of sleep, but Oh Well! I'll post when I get to Chicago and wake up but all the excitement s/b about over by then.

Rufus


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## Amtrak George (Sep 7, 2011)

*DENVER 5:35 a.m.departure to Raton for Chicago passengers* This is an option listed in the disruption notices on Amtrak's website. It includes about 6 hour layovers in Raton (in both directions). This is the same bus that already connects to the Chief for the west.

This is a terrible 'remedy.' Why would anyone that is not desperate to ride a train choose this connection? Why not run a special charter bus (or van, if there are not enough passengers to fill a bus) and connect in La Junta both directions with a platform to platform transfer?

If Amtrak could think outside the box on some of these temporary connections and make them convenient, more people would come back and ride again.


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## henryj (Sep 8, 2011)

Amtrak George said:


> *DENVER 5:35 a.m.departure to Raton for Chicago passengers* This is an option listed in the disruption notices on Amtrak's website. It includes about 6 hour layovers in Raton (in both directions). This is the same bus that already connects to the Chief for the west.
> 
> This is a terrible 'remedy.' Why would anyone that is not desperate to ride a train choose this connection? Why not run a special charter bus (or van, if there are not enough passengers to fill a bus) and connect in La Junta both directions with a platform to platform transfer?
> 
> If Amtrak could think outside the box on some of these temporary connections and make them convenient, more people would come back and ride again.


I have to agree George. When I read that I just couldn't believe it. What a stupid solution. It's Amtrak at it's worst. I still don't know why they don't just reroute over the UP denver to Chicago. They are on UP rails all the way from California to Denver. After all the UP used to route their City of Denver and later on the City of Portland that way. The answer appears to be that Amtrak just really doesn't want to run these western LD trains period.

On the other hand, if you ever wanted to ride the CZ it would seem now is the time. Just fly to or from Denver. The train is not full and you get to see all that great scenery from the lounge car without all the people. I haven't checked, but are the fares reduced during this period?


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## MikeM (Sep 8, 2011)

Amtrak George said:


> *DENVER 5:35 a.m.departure to Raton for Chicago passengers* This is an option listed in the disruption notices on Amtrak's website. It includes about 6 hour layovers in Raton (in both directions). This is the same bus that already connects to the Chief for the west.
> 
> This is a terrible 'remedy.' Why would anyone that is not desperate to ride a train choose this connection? Why not run a special charter bus (or van, if there are not enough passengers to fill a bus) and connect in La Junta both directions with a platform to platform transfer?
> 
> If Amtrak could think outside the box on some of these temporary connections and make them convenient, more people would come back and ride again.


Don't know about the rest of you, but last time I rode the Chief, I wandered into the Raton depot. It looks ok on the outside, but calling it rustic on the interior would be totally charitable. The place is really a dump. Actually, I think it primarily functions as a dump, since the restrooms contain the majority of the "seating" in the facility. Dirty, dusty, and a lovely place to wait for that middle of night connection. Someone in Washington HQ who thought up this plan should be posted to Raton to clean the station and hand out blankets. If anyone is foolish enough to go for this optional connection. Not to mention, the SWC tends to be full enough with regular patrons.

Seems a few too many folks played football without helmets in their youth in this instance...


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## John-MCPO-USN (Sep 8, 2011)

henryj said:


> On the other hand, if you ever wanted to ride the CZ it would seem now is the time. Just fly to or from Denver. The train is not full and you get to see all that great scenery from the lounge car without all the people. I haven't checked, but are the fares reduced during this period?


That is exactly what I am doing on 23-Sep-2011.......fly to Denver from Chicago and enjoy the daylight ride thru the Rockies............John


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## henryj (Sep 8, 2011)

John-MCPO-USN said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, if you ever wanted to ride the CZ it would seem now is the time. Just fly to or from Denver. The train is not full and you get to see all that great scenery from the lounge car without all the people. I haven't checked, but are the fares reduced during this period?
> ...


I checked it out right after I wrote that. You can ride #5 in coach from Denver to SLC, layover four hours and get a roomette back for only $111 extra. Total for a beautiful ride #319. Costs you two nights in Denver. Seems like a bargain to me.


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## AlanB (Sep 8, 2011)

henryj said:


> I still don't know why they don't just reroute over the UP denver to Chicago. They are on UP rails all the way from California to Denver.


Because Amtrak doesn't have any engineers & conductors qualified to operate the train over that route. And UP doesn't have any engineers to loan Amtrak, in part because UP is already carrying some traffic detoured from BNSF because of the flooding problems. Which makes the UP route overcrowded too, ensuring that Amtrak would have plenty of delays even if they could overcome the other issues.

And I believe UP has a route down too for flooding, or at least they did, which would add further congestion.


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## Ben_G (Sep 8, 2011)

Any bets on how long Amtrak will continue the run's from Emeryville to Denver and return. From what I seen a few days ago the #6 train left Reno with 27 passengers onboard.


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## henryj (Sep 8, 2011)

Ben_G said:


> Any bets on how long Amtrak will continue the run's from Emeryville to Denver and return. From what I seen a few days ago the #6 train left Reno with 27 passengers onboard.


When I checked the fares it seems that Denver west is close to fully booked with fares quite high. On the other hand eastbound it seems they are bargain basement level. Fly west and ride east.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 13, 2011)

According to a post on trainorders, the T&E jobs on #5 and #6 between Denver and Chicago will not be restored but will be covered by the Extra Board! :unsure: Also both Trains are to begin operating on the regular schedule between Denver and Chicago as of this Friday, 9/16!!!! 

No mention of whether Omaha will still be bypassed, bustitutions etc. etc. Lets hope the OTP is close to the schedule, even the "normal" couple of hours late would be a big improvement on this route! BNSF dispatchers are the key to this! :help:


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## tubaia (Sep 13, 2011)

When a route is cancelled for this extended period of time (not that it happens often), does anybody know how soon they let passengers know? In August, we booked a trip out east starting from Mt. Pleasant, IA. The start date is the last week of September, which obviously lands within the cancelled timeframe. If I hadn't seen the notice on Amtrak's website (and here, of course), we wouldn't have known.

I will be calling Amtrak today to change our route to originate in La Crosse, WI, instead, which is about the same distance from home and has the almost exact same schedule. It also has the added advantage of being a checked baggage station. Anything else I should know about this station?


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## Joeker (Sep 13, 2011)

Stay tuned. As discussed on another board #5 will originate in Chicago on Friday which means that # 6 will continue on to Chicago on Saturday.

So if this is true then full service will be restored.


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## AlanB (Sep 13, 2011)

Joeker said:


> Stay tuned. As discussed on another board #5 will originate in Chicago on Friday which means that # 6 will continue on to Chicago on Saturday.
> 
> So if this is true then full service will be restored.


It's confirmed!


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## tubaia (Sep 13, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Joeker said:
> 
> 
> > Stay tuned. As discussed on another board #5 will originate in Chicago on Friday which means that # 6 will continue on to Chicago on Saturday.
> ...


Yes, I just learned that as well when I called to make these changes. The agent was confused when I said that the train was cancelled, as she was able to still book seats on that train. Then she found a notice from this morning stating that travel would resume later this week.

Of course, Amtrak's website has not yet been updated. It still states that the routes are still cancelled through the end of the month.

I sure hope the CZ is at least somewhat back on schedule by then. 12 hours late will not make our connections in Chicago work very well. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on the reports and maybe still change to the EB if necessary.

Definitely looking forward to this trip. It's our first Amtrak trip heading toward the east coast.


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## RRrich (Sep 13, 2011)

I am planning on taking the CZ home from the Gathering :mellow: . I have made alternative plans :wacko: but the CZ is my train of choice <_< . I'm keeping my fingers crossed :blush: but now I am much more hopeful ^_^


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## Henry Kisor (Sep 13, 2011)

From Media Relations today:

FULL AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE RESTORED

Trains 5 & 6 to operate between San Francisco Bay and Chicago, including Omaha

CHICAGO - Full service by the Amtrak California Zephyr between San Francisco Bay Area and Chicago will resume this week, effective with the departure of eastbound Train 6 from Emeryville, Calif., on Sept. 15, and the westbound Train 5 from Chicago on Sept. 16.

Limited service between Emeryville and Denver has operated since Sept. 3-4, but there has been no Amtrak service between Fort Morgan, Colo., and Burlington, Iowa, since Aug. 26.

Also effective with these departures, Amtrak service is restored to the Amtrak station in Omaha. The BNSF Railway Co. has made repairs following massive flooding and damage that had led to a detour route bypassing Omaha since June 1.

Amtrak regrets any inconvenience. Passengers who have paid for travel on canceled trains can contact Amtrak to receive refunds without fee or penalty or can rebook for future travel. If tickets have not yet printed, the refund/rebook can be done on Amtrak.com or the free Amtrak iPhone "app."


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## John-MCPO-USN (Sep 13, 2011)

Henry Kisor said:


> From Media Relations today:
> 
> FULL AMTRAK CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR SERVICE RESTORED


AND of course I have already paid for the air-bridge on Southwest between CHI and DEN........and received the refund for the room cost from AMTRAK........ugh----Murphy's Law.

Oh well-----I will miss exciting Nebraska.

John


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## rlaggren (Sep 25, 2011)

rlaggren said:


> I have re-booked to Chicago through Portland from San Francisco, 9-20ish IIRC (too much scanning webpages - it's all a blur...). It looks plausible; too bad going through so many mountains at night and I'll probably be dead meat from lack of sleep, but Oh Well! I'll post when I get to Chicago and wake up but all the excitement s/b about over by then.
> 
> Rufus




Turns out I got to ride the Zephyr after all. Good trip, on time at CHI 9-24 (< 1 hr late). Only significant delay was waiting to cross the Mississippi - would have arrived Chicago early barring that pause.

Breakfast in the dining car was very poor, though; the omlet was solid road kill, couldn't finish it. And how hard can it be to make decent coffee? Can't comment on dinner and lunches. Looks like low hanging fruit there...

Rufus


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