# People stealing off of freights in Los Angeles



## Oreius

I saw this when I rode on the Starlight in September through Oakland. A lumber car sitting unlocked on a siding had most of its freight stolen!!









LA train tracks blanketed in empty boxes as thieves target cargo containers


Train tracks used for freight-transport in Los Angeles resembled a garbage dump Thursday as thieves have been raiding cargo containers and leaving shipping packaging in their wake.




nypost.com


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## MARC Rider

What, they don't lock the containers?

Could this also be due to the loaded trains sitting around too long? It would obviously be much harder to open a container and steal stuff from a moving train. I wonder if the trains aren't moving because of things going wrong with "precision scheduled railroading."

This must also be a problem for truckers, too.

On the other hand, this is the _New York Post_, not exactly the gold standard for journalism.


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## Saddleshoes

I cannot comment on the present LA train thief but...
There was a time that the same thing was happening in Chicago. It was an inside operation. Someone in the railroad routing department would know the cargo inside of specific cars. They would pass the info on to their confederates that would spot the car in question and jump on pop the lock and throw the cargo out. Often this as accomplished as the car was moving through the yard. Then others would grab the loot and run off. The favorite target in those days was cigarettes. When the system worked right these guys would make off with a pick-up truck of cigarettes in less than 15 minutes time.


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## Oreius

From another perspective: 









Images show sea of stolen packages and debris after thieves raid LA trains


Hundreds of packages were stolen out of cargo containers in downtown Los Angeles, leaving the train tracks cluttered with garbage and packages.



www.usatoday.com


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## Cal

I saw it on the news this evening, apparently people are doing it while the train is in motion (albeit slowly as it's coming into/exiting a yard)


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## Just-Thinking-51

MARC Rider said:


> What, they don't lock the containers?


They use pin seals, the bad guys carry bolt cutters.


> Could this also be due to the loaded trains sitting around too long? It would obviously be much harder to open a container and steal stuff from a moving train. I wonder if the trains aren't moving because of things going wrong with "precision scheduled railroading."


This started in the trench and has spread throughout California. The video I have seen show the trains moving slowly.


> This must also be a problem for truckers, too.


Yes, and no. Cargo theft is a bit more tricky with a truck. The driver is only 53 feet away. The trailer has a padlock and a seal. (Which may be plastic) Theft from trucks is a by request thing. You want they get it.


> On the other hand, this is the _New York Post_, not exactly the gold standard for journalism.


Might not be golden standard but this is a real problem and it’s get worse ever day.

This problem is a snatch and grab by homeless people that has gotten organized to a major problem. We in the cargo hauling business don’t like to talk about the number of trailers that go missing ever year.

Welcome to the new lifestyle post pandemic.


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## me_little_me

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> This problem is a snatch and grab by homeless people that has gotten organized to a major problem. We in the cargo hauling business don’t like to talk about the number of trailers that go missing ever year.
> 
> Welcome to the new lifestyle post pandemic.


To put the blame on the homeless is a simplistic and, IMHO wrong, belief. It is far more than the homeless.


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## Just-Thinking-51

me_little_me said:


> To put the blame on the homeless is a simplistic and, IMHO wrong, belief. It is far more than the homeless.



Sorry but that how it started. It’s got organized now, but it started with the people live in tents looking for something of value to sell for food/shelter. The amount of stuff laying on the ground around the tracks show the nature of the crime. If it’s not useful to the person, and you can’t easily sell it. It sitting on the ground next to the tracks.


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## tgstubbs1

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Sorry but that how it started. It’s got organized now, but it started with the people live in tents looking for something of value to sell for food/shelter. The amount of stuff laying on the ground around the tracks show the nature of the crime. If it’s not useful to the person, and you can’t easily sell it. It sitting on the ground next to the tracks.


I wonder if it's a little like those mass shoplifting riots at Walgreens?


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## me_little_me

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Sorry but that how it started. It’s got organized now, but it started with the people live in tents looking for something of value to sell for food/shelter. The amount of stuff laying on the ground around the tracks show the nature of the crime. If it’s not useful to the person, and you can’t easily sell it. It sitting on the ground next to the tracks.


It's not only some homeless who steal to sell. Gangs, addicts (of both alcohol and drugs - with jobs or without), the very poor who sacrifice food and necessities to avoid being homeless, the greedy, the opportunists who see an easy way to make more, etc. Even the rich steal - they just don't do it so crudely but are probably more likely to get caught because they want to steal so much.


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## Exvalley

According to the UP approximately 90 containers are compromised per day in the Los Angeles area. This is up substantially in the past couple of years.

There has also been assaults on railroad staff, which is even more concerning.

This article has an interview with one of the perpetrators:








'It's ugly out there': Rail thefts leave tracks littered with pilfered packages


Thieves pilfering railroad cars is a crime that harks back to the days of horseback-riding bandits, but is fueled by a host of modern realities including homeless encampments and e-commerce.




www.latimes.com


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## cirdan

MARC Rider said:


> What, they don't lock the containers?
> 
> Could this also be due to the loaded trains sitting around too long? It would obviously be much harder to open a container and steal stuff from a moving train. I wonder if the trains aren't moving because of things going wrong with "precision scheduled railroading."
> 
> This must also be a problem for truckers, too.
> 
> On the other hand, this is the _New York Post_, not exactly the gold standard for journalism.



I think it's a bigger problem for railroads than it is for truckers and as truck drivers generally stay close to their trucks even during breaks. The railroads need to get a grip on this problem as otherwise shippers might switch to trucks.

I remember back in the UK in the 1980s there was a problem with thieves jumping onto auto racks while they were sitting in the yard and breaking into newly manufactured cars to steal the radios, often causing a lot of damage in so doing. At that time auto radios still had significant resale value. I don't recall if or how the railroad addressed the problem.


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## AFS1970

While the general attitude of lawlessness may have something to do with said leadership, this being a railroad issue adds a complicated jurisdictional layer into the mix. With the exception of Amtrak, the big railroad police departments are privately owned and operated under a mix of federal and state laws. They are fully sworn police officers but are also spread very thin, as most a very small departments covering very large areas. They do rely on backup from local departments, but they are not given any special priority.


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## Exvalley

In the article I linked to, the UP places the blame squarely on the LAPD and the prosecutor’s office.


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## MARC Rider

Exvalley said:


> In the article I linked to, the UP places the blame squarely on the LAPD and the prosecutor’s office.


And the LAPD points the finger right back on UP, saying they're not doing enough, either. Another consequence of corporate cost-cutting, I suspect.

The article also quotes a UP spokesman as saying about 90 containers a day are "compromised." How many total containers a day move through the ports of LA/Long Beach?

According to the Port of Los Angeles, imports account for about 400,000 TEU per month. I couldn't find figures for the Port of Long Beach, but I think it's of the same order of magnitude. So roughly 25 -26,000 TEU of containers carrying imported stuff passes through the ports each day. It's not clear how many of those containers end up on railcars or in railyards, but I would suspect that it's a lot more than 90. So, in other, in the big picture view of things, this may only be a relatively minor problem, which can probably be easily solved by fencing off the tracks and railyards and hiring some more railroad cops. And paying a little extra for container locks that can't be circumvented with bolt cutters. While there's always a chance that your delivery from Amazon might be affected, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

It does make for some good visuals for TV news and hyperventilating demonization of the homeless and moral panics about "lawlessness," however.


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## AmtrakBlue

I hate when people generalize about the homeless. It’s as bad as generalizing about other groups of people.


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## Exvalley

AmtrakBlue said:


> I hate when people generalize about the homeless. It’s as bad as generalizing about other groups of people.


I haven't seen any generalizations in this thread. What I have seen is someone who has some inside knowledge make the following factual allegation: "_This problem is a snatch and grab by homeless people that has gotten organized to a major problem._" If that is incorrect then please let us know.


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## jis

I think the fact is that there are some snatch and grab activities indulged in by some homeless people. As for whether that was the primary proximate driver of the evolution of an organized crime activity is a matter of conjecture that needs to be validated beyond the statement of an opinion, in my opinion of course.


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## Exvalley

jis said:


> I think the fact is that there are some snatch and grab activities indulged in by some homeless people. As for whether that was the primary proximate driver of the evolution of an organized crime activity is a matter of conjecture that needs to be validated beyond the statement of an opinion, in my opinion of course.


It was not clear to me if the allegation is that the homeless people have organized to some degree or if organized crime has stepped in. If it is the latter, I agree that there is no information as to how it transitioned. My assumption is that organized crime would have seen the opportunity and decided that they could do it too - and better. Kind of like McDonald's opening next to a local hamburger joint.


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## tgstubbs1

It's kind of ridiculous that they don't make more effort to stop it, given the dollar amount of the losses.


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## Asher

Homeless folk organized, a joke. Not that some aren’t guilty. I’m sure they are. A look at the scoundrels that participate in ransacking department stores during civil protests or other unruly times and you can see what happens when a small group start breaking into train cars. It exploded‘s into larger group of vandals, especially in the area where this is taking place. Homeless sifting through the debris get all the blame.


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## MikefromCrete

The whole just shows the lack of security in the railroad business. Trains are often sitting around for hours in an unsecured location. If a high value intermodal train is stopped somewhere you would think a railroad police car could be sent to the scene. If might be enough to discourage any problems. At least if a raid takes place the railroad police officer could notify local police. 
UP seems particularly lacking in security in the L.A. area. Have you ever seen photos of locomotives used on locals in L.A.? They are covered in graffiti! You would think the railroad would care about people painting over their locomotives! It's a wonder the locomotives aren't stripped for parts. Why would UP leave locomotives unguarded overnight?
As far as blaming the homeless for this, I doubt if homeless people would be organized enough for such an activity. It's more likely criminal gangs like the ones that invade high-price stores.


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## Ryan

tgstubbs1 said:


> It's kind of ridiculous that they don't make more effort to stop it, given the dollar amount of the losses.


As demonstrated above, the dollar amount of the losses is a rounding error in the value of the cargo that goes through there.

Nobody cares except for a bunch of worked up people on the internet.


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## joelkfla

MikefromCrete said:


> The whole just shows the lack of security in the railroad business. Trains are often sitting around for hours in an unsecured location. If a high value intermodal train is stopped somewhere you would think a railroad police car could be sent to the scene. If might be enough to discourage any problems. At least if a raid takes place the railroad police officer could notify local police.
> UP seems particularly lacking in security in the L.A. area. Have you ever seen photos of locomotives used on locals in L.A.? They are covered in graffiti! You would think the railroad would care about people painting over their locomotives! It's a wonder the locomotives aren't stripped for parts. Why would UP leave locomotives unguarded overnight?
> As far as blaming the homeless for this, I doubt if homeless people would be organized enough for such an activity. It's more likely criminal gangs like the ones that invade high-price stores.


There was a statement that sometimes the thieves are stopping moving trains.

I'm not sure how that works. I assume if somebody jumped out in front of a slow-moving train, the engineer would hit the brake. Obviously, a lone conductor is not about to challenge a mob of a couple dozen. By the time cops could be summoned, the gang would have completed their dirty work and disappeared.


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## Metra Electric Rider

MikefromCrete said:


> The whole just shows the lack of security in the railroad business. Trains are often sitting around for hours in an unsecured location. If a high value intermodal train is stopped somewhere you would think a railroad police car could be sent to the scene. If might be enough to discourage any problems. At least if a raid takes place the railroad police officer could notify local police.
> UP seems particularly lacking in security in the L.A. area. Have you ever seen photos of locomotives used on locals in L.A.? They are covered in graffiti! You would think the railroad would care about people painting over their locomotives! It's a wonder the locomotives aren't stripped for parts. Why would UP leave locomotives unguarded overnight?
> As far as blaming the homeless for this, I doubt if homeless people would be organized enough for such an activity. It's more likely criminal gangs like the ones that invade high-price stores.


I see a lot of graffiti on freights using the CN tracks adjacent to my line. I do think that there is potentially too little security on freights, judging from the videos online of people hitching rides on them, not just in the USA.


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## Cal

MikefromCrete said:


> The whole just shows the lack of security in the railroad business. Trains are often sitting around for hours in an unsecured location. If a high value intermodal train is stopped somewhere you would think a railroad police car could be sent to the scene. If might be enough to discourage any problems. At least if a raid takes place the railroad police officer could notify local police.
> UP seems particularly lacking in security in the L.A. area. Have you ever seen photos of locomotives used on locals in L.A.? They are covered in graffiti! You would think the railroad would care about people painting over their locomotives! It's a wonder the locomotives aren't stripped for parts. Why would UP leave locomotives unguarded overnight?
> As far as blaming the homeless for this, I doubt if homeless people would be organized enough for such an activity. It's more likely criminal gangs like the ones that invade high-price stores.


Aren't yards already fairly well-protected? And that's where most engines are. I feel that if the current vandalism isn't really much of a problem, there's no need to have officers sitting at every single siding where an engine happens to be -- which is probably too much anyway.


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## Qapla

Another "benefit" of precision railroading - the trains are too long to effectively police


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## flitcraft

On the Criminal Law professor's listserv, this letter from UP on the situation was reproduced--it has apparently been widely disseminated by UP. Obviously this is from UP's perspective, but given this thread, I thought I would copy it here:

December 20, 2021



Honorable George Gascón

Los Angeles County District Attorney District Attorney’s Office

211 West Temple Street Suite 1200

Los Angeles, CA 90012



Re: Union Pacific Railroad Train Thefts and Safety Concerns

Dear District Attorney Gascón,

On behalf of Union Pacific Railroad (UP) and our 1,600 employees covering 275 miles of track at our nine rail facilities throughout Los Angeles County, I am reaching out to request your leadership, attention, and immediate action to the spiraling crisis of organized and opportunistic criminal rail theft that is impacting our employees, customers and supply chain industry.

UP plays a vital role in the Los Angeles County, California and U.S. transportation and goods movement system. That system has been in keen focus this past year throughout the national supply chain crisis. Our extensive rail network and facilities provide the County an economic engine that drives commercial and workforce development in various transportation, retail, and industrial sectors. In fact, UP has been recognized by the White House, California Governor’s Office, and the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach for our committed efforts to provide supply chain solutions that increase economic fluidity and associated public benefits.

While operating a freight railroad is our primary business, safety is our top priority. Since December 2020, UP has experienced an over 160% increase in criminal rail theft in Los Angeles County. In several months during that period, the increase from the previous year surpassed 200%. In October 2021 alone, the increase was 356% over compared to October 2020. Not only do these dramatic increases represent retail product thefts – they include increased assaults and armed robberies of UP employees performing their duties moving trains.

Specifically, just over the past three months of intermodal peak season in preparation for holiday shopping, UP has had the following experience in Los Angeles County:

On average, *over 90 containers compromised per day*.
In partnership with Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department (LASD), and California Highway Patrol (CHP) we estimate *over 100 arrests *have been made of active criminals vandalizing our trains. UP alone making several dozens of arrests.
With our law enforcement partners we have *deterred hundreds of individuals *from trespassing and vandalizing our trains.
Of all those arrests, however, *UP has not been contacted for any court proceedings*.
This increased criminal activity over the past twelve months accounts for approximately $5 million in claims, losses and damages to UP. And that value does not include respective losses to our impacted customers. Nor does it capture the larger operating or commercial impacts to the UP network or supply chain system in Los Angeles County.

In response to this increased, organized, and opportunistic criminal activity, UP by its own effort and cost enlisted additional and existing Special Agents across the UP system to join our local efforts with LAPD, LASD and CHP to help prevent the ongoing thefts. We have also utilized and are further exploring the use of additional technologies to help us combat these criminals through drones, specialized fencing, trespass detection systems, and other measures.

But even with these expanded resources and closer partnerships with local law enforcement, we find ourselves coming back to the same results with the Los Angeles County criminal justice system. Criminals are caught and arrested, turned over to local authorities for booking, arraigned before the local courts, charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine. These individuals are generally caught and released back onto the streets in less than twenty-four hours. Even with all the arrests made, the no-cash bail policy and extended timeframe for suspects to appear in court is causing re-victimization to UP by these same criminals. In fact, criminals boast to our officers that charges will be pled down to simple trespassing – which bears no serious consequence. Without any judicial deterrence or consequence, it is no surprise that over the past year UP has witnessed the significant increase in criminal rail theft described above.

As a result of Los Angeles County’s rail theft crisis, customers like UPS and FedEx that utilize our essential rail service during peak holiday season are now seeking to divert rail business away to other areas in the hope of avoiding the organized and opportunistic criminal theft that has impacted their own business and customers. Like our customers, UP is now contemplating serious changes to our operating plans to avoid Los Angeles County. We do not take this effort lightly, particularly during the supply chain crisis, as this drastic change to our operations will create significant impacts and strains throughout the local, state, and national supply chain systems.

UP and our goods movement partners strongly urge you to reconsider the policies detailed in Special Directive 20-07. While we understand the well-intended social justice goals of the policy, we need our justice system to support our partnership efforts with local law enforcement, hold these criminals accountable, and most important, help protect our employees and the critical local and national rail network. We thank you for taking our concerns into account. We stand ready to meet with you and other stakeholders to help implement needed and immediate actions. We look forward to that necessary collaboration to restore public safety and order.

Sincerely,

Adrian Guerrero


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## joelkfla

flitcraft said:


> On the Criminal Law professor's listserv, this letter from UP on the situation was reproduced--it has apparently been widely disseminated by UP. Obviously this is from UP's perspective, but given this thread, I thought I would copy it here:
> 
> December 20, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> Honorable George Gascón
> 
> Los Angeles County District Attorney District Attorney’s Office
> 
> 211 West Temple Street Suite 1200
> 
> Los Angeles, CA 90012
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Union Pacific Railroad Train Thefts and Safety Concerns
> 
> Dear District Attorney Gascón,
> 
> On behalf of Union Pacific Railroad (UP) and our 1,600 employees covering 275 miles of track at our nine rail facilities throughout Los Angeles County, I am reaching out to request your leadership, attention, and immediate action to the spiraling crisis of organized and opportunistic criminal rail theft that is impacting our employees, customers and supply chain industry.
> 
> UP plays a vital role in the Los Angeles County, California and U.S. transportation and goods movement system. That system has been in keen focus this past year throughout the national supply chain crisis. Our extensive rail network and facilities provide the County an economic engine that drives commercial and workforce development in various transportation, retail, and industrial sectors. In fact, UP has been recognized by the White House, California Governor’s Office, and the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach for our committed efforts to provide supply chain solutions that increase economic fluidity and associated public benefits.
> 
> While operating a freight railroad is our primary business, safety is our top priority. Since December 2020, UP has experienced an over 160% increase in criminal rail theft in Los Angeles County. In several months during that period, the increase from the previous year surpassed 200%. In October 2021 alone, the increase was 356% over compared to October 2020. Not only do these dramatic increases represent retail product thefts – they include increased assaults and armed robberies of UP employees performing their duties moving trains.
> 
> Specifically, just over the past three months of intermodal peak season in preparation for holiday shopping, UP has had the following experience in Los Angeles County:
> 
> On average, *over 90 containers compromised per day*.
> In partnership with Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department (LASD), and California Highway Patrol (CHP) we estimate *over 100 arrests *have been made of active criminals vandalizing our trains. UP alone making several dozens of arrests.
> With our law enforcement partners we have *deterred hundreds of individuals *from trespassing and vandalizing our trains.
> Of all those arrests, however, *UP has not been contacted for any court proceedings*.
> This increased criminal activity over the past twelve months accounts for approximately $5 million in claims, losses and damages to UP. And that value does not include respective losses to our impacted customers. Nor does it capture the larger operating or commercial impacts to the UP network or supply chain system in Los Angeles County.
> 
> In response to this increased, organized, and opportunistic criminal activity, UP by its own effort and cost enlisted additional and existing Special Agents across the UP system to join our local efforts with LAPD, LASD and CHP to help prevent the ongoing thefts. We have also utilized and are further exploring the use of additional technologies to help us combat these criminals through drones, specialized fencing, trespass detection systems, and other measures.
> 
> But even with these expanded resources and closer partnerships with local law enforcement, we find ourselves coming back to the same results with the Los Angeles County criminal justice system. Criminals are caught and arrested, turned over to local authorities for booking, arraigned before the local courts, charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine. These individuals are generally caught and released back onto the streets in less than twenty-four hours. Even with all the arrests made, the no-cash bail policy and extended timeframe for suspects to appear in court is causing re-victimization to UP by these same criminals. In fact, criminals boast to our officers that charges will be pled down to simple trespassing – which bears no serious consequence. Without any judicial deterrence or consequence, it is no surprise that over the past year UP has witnessed the significant increase in criminal rail theft described above.
> 
> As a result of Los Angeles County’s rail theft crisis, customers like UPS and FedEx that utilize our essential rail service during peak holiday season are now seeking to divert rail business away to other areas in the hope of avoiding the organized and opportunistic criminal theft that has impacted their own business and customers. Like our customers, UP is now contemplating serious changes to our operating plans to avoid Los Angeles County. We do not take this effort lightly, particularly during the supply chain crisis, as this drastic change to our operations will create significant impacts and strains throughout the local, state, and national supply chain systems.
> 
> UP and our goods movement partners strongly urge you to reconsider the policies detailed in Special Directive 20-07. While we understand the well-intended social justice goals of the policy, we need our justice system to support our partnership efforts with local law enforcement, hold these criminals accountable, and most important, help protect our employees and the critical local and national rail network. We thank you for taking our concerns into account. We stand ready to meet with you and other stakeholders to help implement needed and immediate actions. We look forward to that necessary collaboration to restore public safety and order.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Adrian Guerrero


Makes sense to me. The decriminalization of crime makes crime pay.


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## Just-Thinking-51

> As a result of Los Angeles County’s rail theft crisis, customers like UPS and FedEx that utilize our essential rail service during peak holiday season are now seeking to divert rail business away to other areas in the hope of avoiding the organized and opportunistic criminal theft that has impacted their own business and customers.



Seasonal customers? I understand UPS and FedEx would try to divert traffic, but to say there only use rail during peak holidays traffic would be wrong. The problem is limited capacity in the supply chain transportation to adjust to interruptions.

To divert traffic you need highway capacity, tractors, and of course people.


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## AmtrakBlue

Train derails near LA site of recent wave of cargo thefts


Crews are making railroad repair in Los Angeles after a train derailed near the location where thieves have been raiding cargo containers, leaving the tracks littered with empted boxes of packaged goods sent by retailers




abcnews.go.com


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## enviro5609

As a lawyer-

I don’t know the facts here on the arrests or the decisions to not prosecute— if that’s even what happened. This seems like a lot of posturing and performative blame shifting because this issue has media attention at the moment. I’ve seen and written letters like that before. That was written to create a record, not to actually convey information.

What immediately comes to mind is— of all those arrested, were any of those actually caught in the act? Are these actually prosecutable cases with good evidence and arrests? Or did UP and LASD respond when the conditions were reported— well after the thieves were gone— round up a bunch of homeless rooting through the trash left behind, and call it a day?

From personal experience, it wouldn’t be the first time the police gave me a “case” with no evidence and then got upset I didn’t prosecute. But it does effectively shift blame.


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## tgstubbs1

If they are caught and convicted could the RR file a civil suit to recover damage?


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## Devil's Advocate

I personally think both sides are partly to blame. UP for not protecting their own cargo and CA for not punishing criminals enough to dissuade future illegal behavior. Seems fixable but hard to say when or if they'll get there.


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## Just-Thinking-51

The railroad need to cleaning up this mess up. The boxes spread around the track are attracted more people to this area.

Edit: complete change my thoughts and statement.


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## tgstubbs1

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Or at least they need to keep the right of way much cleaner. If you see boxes of stuff on the ground, why are we surprised people are look in them, and taken stuff.


There was a washing machine on the video they had on TV. No wonder they had a derailment.


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## west point

RR locks are fairly strong. Maybe a hockey puck type might be even better. UP could stop an intermodal somewhere close to LA add the locks and remove them once trailers and containers are in the intermodal yard?

If the thieves know RRs they may be able to knock the glad hands apart. That would put the train into emergency stopping the train.


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## MARC Rider

]


west point said:


> RR locks are fairly strong. Maybe a hockey puck type might be even better. UP could stop an intermodal somewhere close to LA add the locks and remove them once trailers and containers are in the intermodal yard?
> 
> If the thieves know RRs they may be able to knock the glad hands apart. That would put the train into emergency stopping the train.


Is there some source that explains the way containers are secured? I realize that no lock is totally immune to being forced open, but surely there should be locks that make the job difficult enough that the vast majority of thieves won't bother and will look for an easier target.


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## PeeweeTM

Hihi, and than put all the keys of the about 200 containers in one bag and let the 'Memory Game' begin in Chicago!
Or, use just one model key and show it on a YouTube (well, TikTok nowadays) so the key can be 3D-printed as per TSA-instruction...


Well, we had our share of container content thefts in Rotterdam, too, about twenty years ago. 
But that has mostly subsided now. 
Most container cars have anti-theft bars. And where possible containers are loaded with the doors facing each other.
And some shippers use a special set of locks on their containerpool.


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## ehbowen

PeeweeTM said:


> Hihi, and than put all the keys of the about 200 containers in one bag and let the 'Memory Game' begin in Chicago!
> Or, use just one model key and show it on a YouTube (well, TikTok nowadays) so the key can be 3D-printed as per TSA-instruction...



Yes, that's the problem. When your factory is in China, and your distribution centers are scattered all through the "lower 48"...how do you make sure that they all have the same key, and that no one else does?


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## John819

Actually fairly easy to solve. The good governor should call up 1,000 or so National Guards and deploy them to the train yards for a month.


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## Ryan

That sounds like a colossal waste of time and money.


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## Chris I

John819 said:


> Actually fairly easy to solve. The good governor should call up 1,000 or so National Guards and deploy them to the train yards for a month.


You do realize that the National Guard is made up of regular people, with families and responsibilities, right? Pulling hundreds of these people out of their regular lives to go protect Amazon packages in a private corporation's railyard is a crazy idea. I would even go as far as calling it gross abuse of power to help a private corporation with public resources like that.


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## Exvalley

There is definitely an interesting debate as to what extent the government and private enterprise have to provide safety and security. I'm not ready for a world in which private companies are left entirely on their own for combating criminality, but I also appreciate that a private company plays a role in mitigating their loss.


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## tgstubbs1

Exvalley said:


> There is definitely an interesting debate as to what extent the government and private enterprise have to provide safety and security. I'm not ready for a world in which private companies are left entirely on their own for combating criminality, but I also appreciate that a private company plays a role in mitigating their loss.



Yes. The train yards are private property, but open to public areas.


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## MARC Rider

Chris I said:


> You do realize that the National Guard is made up of regular people, with families and responsibilities, right? Pulling hundreds of these people out of their regular lives to go protect Amazon packages in a private corporation's railyard is a crazy idea. I would even go as far as calling it gross abuse of power to help a private corporation with public resources like that.


Especially since we are talking about 90 containers a day out of the 20,000+ that pass through the port. The main responsibility for dealing with this should fall on UP, although if there are organized rings masterminding the thefts, law enforcement needs to be involved. Better ways of securing the containers and restricting access to the tracks would probably take care of most of the casual scavengers. There's certainly no need to snarl up the LA County DA's office and adding to the probably filled over capacity jails with these sort of low level offenders. If Amtrak can fence off its tracks on the NEC, surely UP can do the same.


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## Qapla

Part of the situation comes about because the rails are not nationalized. Essentially, the rails are private property, and the police cannot patrol them. If they were nationalized, like the highways, they could be openly patrolled but the railways could not have people "trespassed" from them like they do now.

It can be a Catch 22 situation


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## Rover

Call the Pinkertons


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## tgstubbs1

Rover said:


> Call the Pinkertons



I wonder how much protection they could buy for say .. a million or two?


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## Rover

AmtrakBlue said:


> Train derails near LA site of recent wave of cargo thefts
> 
> 
> Crews are making railroad repair in Los Angeles after a train derailed near the location where thieves have been raiding cargo containers, leaving the tracks littered with empted boxes of packaged goods sent by retailers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews.go.com


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## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> Part of the situation comes about because the rails are not nationalized. Essentially, the rails are private property, and the police cannot patrol them. If they were nationalized, like the highways, they could be openly patrolled but the railways could not have people "trespassed" from them like they do now.
> 
> It can be a Catch 22 situation


1. I'm sure that UP has no problems with cops chasing after thieves on UP property.

2. UP, even though it is a private company, has its own railroad police, which has full peace officer authority, so UP bulls can also chase after thieves and make arrests.

As Pewee TM mentioned, they've had this sort of problem in the past in other countries where the railroads are government owned.


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## MARC Rider

With respect to the Union Pacific Police:



> All of the states in Union Pacific's 23 state system authorize full police authority, except for Minnesota and Wyoming, which do not grant authority to railroad police at all.


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## flitcraft

One of the things I noticed particularly in the letter they sent to the media is that UP claims that the losses for last year were $5 million dollars. That's hardly noticeable for a company the scale of Union Pacific, which might be why they don't feel inclined to take any action to prevent these thefts beyond sending copies of complaint letters to the news media.


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## Just-Thinking-51

There a few way to provide extra security to cargo containers. They all cost money. The blame game seem to be in effect. Who ever feels the most pain will take steps to secure the cargo better.

More fences, faster trains, or robust padlocks system. This problem can be fixed.

The padlock on my trailer will cost me $90 to replace it. If I found someone else padlock on a trailer, I need to use a metal grinder to cut it off. Yes you can buy a metal grinder that is hand held and battery powered. So my high security system has limitations. So multiple points of prevention is need. Add in a fence to block view and access of the tracks. Finish with clear traffic path for the train so it get up to speed and prevent people from mount the train.

All this require multiple parties to do things, and of course effort and money.

The blame game is easier.


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## WWW

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> There a few way to provide extra security to cargo containers. They all cost money. The blame game seem to be in effect. Who ever feels the most pain will take steps to secure the cargo better.
> 
> More fences, faster trains, or robust padlocks system. This problem can be fixed.
> 
> The padlock on my trailer will cost me $90 to replace it. If I found someone else padlock on a trailer, I need to use a metal grinder to cut it off. Yes you can buy a metal grinder that is hand held and battery powered. So my high security system has limitations. So multiple points of prevention is need. Add in a fence to block view and access of the tracks. Finish with clear traffic path for the train so it get up to speed and prevent people from mount the train.
> 
> All this require multiple parties to do things, and of course effort and money.
> 
> The blame game is easier.


Just a side thought - the Railroad could move its switching yard out to the desert boondocks instead of having in right in the "HOOD" that is the
neighborhood of criminal activity.


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## tgstubbs1

I guess someone has taken notice.










Legendary Union Pacific railroad police arrive in the Wild West to quell train robberies


LOS ANGELES, California — It’s been 121 years since the Wild Bunch blew apart a Union Pacific train in Wyoming and stole $30,000 in the famous Great Train Robbery depicted in countless movies.




www.washingtonexaminer.com






....the fabled successors to the Pinkerton Detective Agency are once again called to tame the Wild West. Six Union Pacific agents have arrived to stop a new trend that has seen $5 million in goods stolen during the past year from trains leaving Los Angeles's beleaguered ports."


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## Just-Thinking-51

That story is more of a political hit job.


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## TinCan782

BTW, that line (the UP Alhambra Sub) through the Lincoln Park area is also used by the Sunset Limited.


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## MARC Rider

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> That story is more of a political hit job.


Yes, the Washington Examiner makes no pretense of being an objective non-partisan media outlet.


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## Ryan

tgstubbs1 said:


> $5 million in goods stolen during the past year



/me clutches his pearls and nearly faints



MARC Rider said:


> Especially since we are talking about 90 containers a day out of the 20,000+ that pass through the port.


Oh, is that all? Carry on, then.


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## Exvalley

MARC Rider said:


> Yes, the Washington Examiner makes no pretense of being an objective non-partisan media outlet.


Is anything in the article incorrect?


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## Qapla

While there may be some "blame game" going on as respects to a solution to the problem - the fact is ... if people weren't stealing there would not be a problem - so, blaming the thieves is actually correct.


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## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> Is anything in the article incorrect?


That "article" reads like a blog post repeating the talking points of a corporate memo with no evidence provided, no objectivity demonstrated, and no indication more than one side was considered. I guess it's "correct" insomuch as this is what German Hurtado is actually telling people but other than that who knows.


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## neroden

When the reporter is able to write "the location where thieves have been raiding cargo containers" (as they just did in the derailment article), it implies that UP isn't hiring enough security. If they're happening at the same location repeatedly, UP should have security stationed at that location; that's just common sense. If the thieves were bouncing all over the place hitting different places each time, that might be different...


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## MikefromCrete

Maybe UP should find a way not to have its trains stopped for long periods of time at the site of the robberies. But again, we talking 90 containers out of the 20,000 or so handled daily, so maybe that's why UP hasn't hustled to prevent the problem.


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## joelkfla

MikefromCrete said:


> Maybe UP should find a way not to have its trains stopped for long periods of time at the site of the robberies. But again, we talking 90 containers out of the 20,000 or so handled daily, so maybe that's why UP hasn't hustled to prevent the problem.


Reports are that gangs have forced trains to stop, and even assaulted the crews.


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## MARC Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> That "article" reads like a blog post repeating the talking points of a corporate memo with no evidence provided, no objectivity demonstrated, and no indication more than one side was considered. I guess it's "correct" insomuch as this is what German Hurtado is actually telling people but other than that who knows.


There was also a line that sort of implied it had something to do with the California governor's Covid policies. Given that (1) that's irrelevant, and (2) the governor is of the opposite political party that the one supported by the Washington Examiner, I would say that suggests that this paper is not a reliable source of impartial journalism. Also, the letter from UP makes a crack about this problem being a consequence of the elimination of cash bail. This is just another talking point used by certain politicians who want to get the general public whipped up with fear of crime as a tactic to attract votes. In the big scheme of things, this issue is not really that important and could be easily taken care of by some attention by UP. Sure, it makes for some pretty photogenic images of the trash strewed all over the tracks, but those mages aren't really representative of the general conditions in the Los Angeles area.


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## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> Reports are that gangs have forced trains to stop, and even assaulted the crews.


Sounds to me like that's a job for targeted law enforcement and police intelligence work, not wholesale demonization of homeless scavengers, punishing them before trial by locking them up and demanding cash bail that they don't have. And, most important, the public should realize that this only affects a very small portion of the total trade moving through the port. For some reason, the media don't seem to be able to find time or space to mention that.


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## Ryan

Facts like that don't drive clicks and thus revenue. Manufactured outrage sells.


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## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> Sounds to me like that's a job for targeted law enforcement and police intelligence work, not wholesale demonization of homeless scavengers, punishing them before trial by locking them up and demanding cash bail that they don't have. And, most important, the public should realize that this only affects a very small portion of the total trade moving through the port. For some reason, the media don't seem to be able to find time or space to mention that.


Agreed that the down and out folks picking thru the remains of the attack shouldn't be treated too harshly. But if the ones breaking into the containers or threatening train crews are getting a slap on the wrist, that's a problem.


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## Just-Thinking-51

I personally just want to rent a trash truck and scoop up the stuff along the sidewalk and on the grass. I don’t get why a community would put up with so much litter.

No I don’t have track and time, so the stuff on or around the tracks are off limits.


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## tgstubbs1

They say crews have been robbed and trains stopped. Then there is a lack of evidence.

Don't locomotives have some kind of dash cam with GPS to record incidents?

What kinds of instrumentation do Amtrak locomotives have?


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## Ryan

A camera out the front is going to be roughly worthless to provide evidence of what's happening back on the train.

If the "forcing trains to stop" thing is actually real, congrats - you'll get video of something heavy on the tracks and no actionable information on how it got there.


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## Qapla

Ryan said:


> you'll get video of something heavy on the tracks and no actionable information on how it got there



Or maybe cab video of a brake line warning because they knocked on off near the back of the train causing an emergency stop


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## Rover

MikefromCrete said:


> Maybe UP should find a way not to have its trains stopped for long periods of time at the site of the robberies. But again, we talking 90 containers out of the 20,000 or so handled daily, so maybe that's why UP hasn't hustled to prevent the problem.


It's all about percentages...

When Texas de-regulated their electricity market beginning in 2002, their bid snafus with the new system that acted as the clearing house for all residential and business customer requests to new service and to end or change service, *that went on for a year.*

TXU gave a statement to the Press with a headline "96% of their accounts had no issues...."

But... TXU had 6 million customers statewide, and that meant that 240,000 customers had messed up billing/no billing issues unresolved for 6 months to a year. Those 240,000 business and residential customers didn't feel any comfort that the other 96% of customer's accounts had no issues...


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## MARC Rider

If the concern is thieves threatening train crews, there are a number of ways to deal with that.

1. Have some police officers (either UP cops or LAPD) ride along to help verify and identify the threats, plus they can call for backup and make arrests with solid evidence to allow the DA to throw the book at the thieves.

2. Body cams on train crew, making a video record of the threat and the stoppage. Again, providing high quality evidence of the perps.

3. Train crew radios police, who are lying in wait somewhere nearby who can quickly arrive. Even if the perps run away, the train hasn't been robbed. These could be UP bulls if LAPD is swamped with other priorities.

I'm sure trained police professionals have more and better ways to put a stop to this that doesn't involve complaining about constitutional rights and demanding a police state just because UP is too cheap to pay for more secure locks on their containers.


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## tgstubbs1

Ryan said:


> A camera out the front is going to be roughly worthless to provide evidence of what's happening back on the train.
> 
> If the "forcing trains to stop" thing is actually real, congrats - you'll get video of something heavy on the tracks and no actionable information on how it got there.



A Toyota might have only one cam. A high priced vehicle designed for commercial transport should have a dozen.


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## Ryan

Pull on that thread for a minute - where would you put those cameras and how would that system work?

It's very easy to say "someone should do something", but a heck of a lot harder to actually come up with something that is feasible and makes sense.


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## tgstubbs1

Ryan said:


> Pull on that thread for a minute - where would you put those cameras and how would that system work?
> 
> It's very easy to say "someone should do something", but a heck of a lot harder to actually come up with something that is feasible and makes sense.


I understand those 360 degree cams on some cars use multiple cams in some kind of matrix. 

The one I bought a Walmart for $39 records continuously and links the GPS coordinates. I don't recall the details but it would start overwriting after a few days, depending on the SSD chip.

All it needs is 12vdc and a mount.


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## trainman74

One L.A.-based website tied this to the fact that Union Pacific laid off a number of employees in September 2020, including police officers -- and they found a tipster who claims that the number of officers patrolling UP's L.A. tracks went from 50-60 down to 8.

Before Recent Wave of Train Cargo Thefts, Union Pacific Laid Off Unspecified Number of Its Railroad Police Force


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## neroden

trainman74 said:


> One L.A.-based website tied this to the fact that Union Pacific laid off a number of employees in September 2020, including police officers -- and they found a tipster who claims that the number of officers patrolling UP's L.A. tracks went from 50-60 down to 8.
> 
> Before Recent Wave of Train Cargo Thefts, Union Pacific Laid Off Unspecified Number of Its Railroad Police Force


And there we go. As predicted.


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## Ryan

tgstubbs1 said:


> I understand those 360 degree cams on some cars use multiple cams in some kind of matrix.
> 
> The one I bought a Walmart for $39 records continuously and links the GPS coordinates. I don't recall the details but it would start overwriting after a few days, depending on the SSD chip.
> 
> All it needs is 12vdc and a mount.


Again, I must implore you to think about that for a minute - how would you scale a camera system that works for a 15 foot long car into something that works for a 15,000 foot long train?

How many 12V power sources do you think are in boxcars miles behind the nearest locomotive?


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## tgstubbs1

Ryan said:


> Again, I must implore you to think about that for a minute - how would you scale a camera system that works for a 15 foot long car into something that works for a 15,000 foot long train?
> 
> How many 12V power sources do you think are in boxcars miles behind the nearest locomotive?



I would hope a big company like UP could hire someone to do it, but it wouldn't be me. My point is only that the technology is possible and wouldn't have to cost a fortune. My example uses 12v but the cams probably run on 5v.


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## Ryan

Boxcars don’t have 5v power supplies either.

Your views on what is logical and feasible to do are wildly miscalibrated.


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## tgstubbs1

Ryan said:


> Boxcars don’t have 5v power supplies either.
> 
> Your views on what is logical and feasible to do are wildly miscalibrated.


The discussion was about preventing the assaults on the crew, in the cab. Someone else expanded the scope to boxcars, it wasn't me.


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## Ryan

The entire discussion has been about stealing from freight cars, aside from a random unsubstantiated “they say” about crews having been assaulted with no evidence. 

Your locomotive covered cameras solves a problem that doesn’t exist.


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## Qapla

Ryan said:


> It's very easy to say "someone should do something", but a heck of a lot harder to actually come up with something that is feasible and makes sense.



What makes sense is that the thieves should quit stealing and get a real job. The start of this problem does not lay with UP and their lack of a working solution of the LAPD not responding ... the start of the problem is that people are stealing!

Think about it - if an organized gang decided to come to your neighborhood and break into all the houses on the street how would you feel if everyone just kept saying your should have done more to stop them. If no one spoke about you being a "victim" but that you are part of the "problem" because you didn't have a better security system.?

Let's lay the blame where it belongs - after all, there would not be a problem if thieves were not committing the illegal act in the first place.


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## joelkfla

Ryan said:


> The entire discussion has been about stealing from freight cars, aside from a random unsubstantiated “they say” about crews having been assaulted with no evidence.


UP said it in their letter to the DA: https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public...nativedocs/pdf_up_la_district_atty_211221.pdf


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## Ryan

A very trustworthy and unbiased source.


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## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> Think about it - if an organized gang decided to come to your neighborhood and break into all the houses on the street how would you feel if everyone just kept saying your should have done more to stop them. If no one spoke about you being a "victim" but that you are part of the "problem" because you didn't have a better security system.?



In our neighborhood, we were having a crime wave in the late 1970s. This was right before I moved there. Apparently some community leaders started this:

Northwest Citizens Patrol – We are our Brother's Keepers (nwcp.info) 

I joined it a few years after I moved to the area. Basically, I go out once every 7 weeks, and drive around the neighborhood with a radio in my car, and if I see something suspicious, I radio the "watch commander" who has a police officer with him, and who goes and checks it out. In the 30+ years I've been doing this, I've never actually seen any real incidents myself (although they occasionally happen.) On the other hand, our neighborhood has one of the lowest crime rates in the Baltimore area. I would guess that the bad guys know that people with radio contact to the police are driving around, and so they decide to not commit crimes or commit them in other neighborhoods. Nonetheless, I still take some responsibility for securing my property, locking my house doors, cars, etc.

Union Pacific has their own police force, for goodness sakes. I guess that the bean-counters figured they saved more money from laying off the cops than they were losing from the thefts.


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## Qapla

I'm sorry - but this still sounds like blaming the victims instead of blaming the culprits


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## Devil's Advocate

Qapla said:


> I'm sorry - but this still sounds like blaming the victims instead of blaming the culprits


It's a two way street with both UP and CA having a role in the solution. Publishing lopsided attack memos scores political points but also dissuades effective cooperation. UP seemed to think they could shame taxpayers into protecting their private party. When that ploy failed they deployed more security staff and monitoring equipment. If UP has identifiable video evidence and the DA still refuses to prosecute then publish the evidence and I'll reconsider.


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## Qapla

While I do agree that UP, if they have their own police, should do more than they are doing and the DA should prosecute instead of making deals - that fact remains, if the thieves were not stealing there would not be a problem. The blame has to start with those who are actually breaking the law - they are the "cause" of the problem that requires a better solution than what is currently in place - Regardless of how much UP does or doesn't do, they are still the "victim" - not the problem. The thieves are the problem.


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## Rover

I think what we need are just some common sense bolt cutter laws..


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## Ryan

Qapla said:


> While I do agree that UP, if they have their own police, should do more than they are doing and the DA should prosecute instead of making deals - that fact remains, if the thieves were not stealing there would not be a problem. The blame has to start with those who are actually breaking the law - they are the "cause" of the problem that requires a better solution than what is currently in place - Regardless of how much UP does or doesn't do, they are still the "victim" - not the problem. The thieves are the problem.


There is literally nobody arguing otherwise. Your statement is 100% correct and yet completely devoid of any value.


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## Qapla

Ryan said:


> Your statement is 100% correct and yet completely devoid of any value.




It has the same value as the comments about what UP and LAPD should do when none of us can make them do that nor do they seem inclined to do anything that will solve the problem


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## Just-Thinking-51

By shine a light on the problem, and talking about here, and on/in other media. We as a society are showing our unhappiness with this situation. This bring pressure on the players involved to act. Be it the railroad, the owners of the container, the individual shippers, or the individual customers, local police or politicians. Someone is going to do something to stop this criminal ransacking of railroad container and trailers.

Now if you or me had a package lost, it could create a lawsuit against the railroad and container owner. A FedEx package is scanned ever step in the transportation process. A little digging and you can guess it was stolen while in transit with the UP railroad. This will start a legal process that could become a Class Action lawsuit. Sure there a lot of “term of service” to go through, and lot of leg work. But individual packages that are no value to anyone other to that individual are been stolen and then dropped by the tracks. Family Photos Framed, Half of a dead firefighter helmet on a display stand. These items are traceable, and one of these family are going to file a claim.

Boom now you have a class action lawsuit.


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## Metra Electric Rider

Who actually owns the railcars and containers? Surely UP, in this example, doesn't own all of them in any one train/consist. I think that might be part of the problem with locking them, unless there were a national (and it would probably need to be international with containers) standard.


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## Just-Thinking-51

If UP is the carrier, then they have the responsibility for it.

Seals are just a easy way to verify the cargo intact. I haul a lot of cargo that the truck driver is responsible for the condition and count of the freight. Some companies will actually charge the driver for any freight claims. Just like some will charge the individual driver for any accident damage, or repairs to equipment from a bad inspection. Almost always any fine you equipment get is the responsibility of the driver.

The captain of the ship is alive and well in the trucking industry.


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## Rover

Theft Package Cleanup Begins...


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## neroden

Qapla said:


> I'm sorry - but this still sounds like blaming the victims instead of blaming the culprits


There will always be bad people. Blaming bad people is not a useful solution to anything. And asking bad people to behave better never works!

The question is who is in a position to stop them. Does UP want the thefts to stop, or do they not really care? Seems like by firing all their own cops, they said "we don't care".

To put it another way -- to paraphrase an old comedy routine, "The Great Train Robbery" -- the question is who is responsible. And thieves are totally irresponsible!


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## Qapla

neroden said:


> There will always be bad people. Blaming bad people is not a useful solution to anything. And asking bad people to behave better never works!



I realize this. I agree that more needs to be done to stop them.

However, when reading the thread it struck me the same as the headlines many on here have commented on that always phrase it as "Train hits car - kills people" as though it was the trains fault - instead of "Car tries to beat train and loses"

Just wanted some acknowledgement that UP and the trains are actually "victims" like the rest of us - they are not the "problem" - they are just not doing enough to stop the problem.

I will back out of this thread now ....


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## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> There was a statement that sometimes the thieves are stopping moving trains.
> 
> I'm not sure how that works. I assume if somebody jumped out in front of a slow-moving train, the engineer would hit the brake. Obviously, a lone conductor is not about to challenge a mob of a couple dozen. By the time cops could be summoned, the gang would have completed their dirty work and disappeared.



I guess it's quite easy to make signals turn red if you know how.


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## TinCan782

cirdan said:


> I guess it's quite easy to make signals turn red if you know how.


Its called a "shunt".
A crude oil train protester was recently convicted of causing that to happen up in the Pacific Northwest.








Sabotage of crude oil train track results in prison sentence for Washington protester


A woman convicted of sabotaging railroad tracks near the U.S.-Canada border in Washington state just before a train carrying crude oil was due to pass through has been sentenced to 12 months and one day in prison.




www.oregonlive.com


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## NW cannonball

tgstubbs1 said:


> If they are caught and convicted could the RR file a civil suit to recover damage?


If caught and convicted -- oy. Civil suit to recover damages from the homeless people who live near the tracks because railroad property is not NIMBY property - who is kidding here? 
If, and it's a BIG if, the organizers of this possibly big-time theft scheme, are found and brought to trial, the homeless people who live near the tracks will be the losers. They can't and mostly won't be able to pay lawyers.


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## Rover

joelkfla said:


> There was a statement that sometimes the thieves are stopping moving trains.
> 
> I'm not sure how that works. I assume if somebody jumped out in front of a slow-moving train, the engineer would hit the brake. Obviously, a lone conductor is not about to challenge a mob of a couple dozen. By the time cops could be summoned, the gang would have completed their dirty work and disappeared.


Can Commercial Airline Pilots carry a firearm for protection when on pilot duty?
Can train engineers carry a firearm for safety??


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## Bob Dylan

Rover said:


> Can Commercial Airline Pilots carry a firearm for protection when on pilot duty?
> Can train engineers carry a firearm for safety??


Airline Pilots have a weapon in the Cockpit which is supposed to be Secure, and it is locked in a weapon box, not carried by the Pilots.

Sky Marshall's are armed, but there's not many, and of the Morons that try to carry Firearms on to Planes( over 100 were found @ the Austin Airport during the Holidays!) are mostly being caught by the TSA and arrested after being denied boarding.

Amtrak staff, except for Amtrak Police are NOT authorized to carry weapons aboard Trains or on Amtrak Property.


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## Rover

Bob Dylan said:


> Airline Pilots have a weapon in the Cockpit which is supposed to be Secure, and it is locked in a weapon box, not carried by the Pilots.
> 
> Sky Marshall's are armed, but there's not many, and of the Morons that try to carry Firearms on to Planes( over 100 were found @ the Austin Airport during the Holidays!) are mostly being caught by the TSA and arrested after being denied boarding.
> 
> Amtrak staff, except for Amtrak Police are NOT authorized to carry weapons aboard Trains or on Amtrak Property.



Anyone know about Freight rail operators policies on engineers carrying weapons, whether they are pulling freight or Amtrak??


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## Willbridge

One other step that the U.P. could take is to send a junior attorney to court to conspicuously monitor what is going on. When our Regional Transportation District hired a recent law school graduate to attend trials of "behavior problem" individuals the problems were taken more seriously and were reduced. She gradually took on other duties, but the effects lasted long enough for us to get tv and sound recording installed on every bus and train.

I became familiar with this strategy due to her also handling requests for an expert witness to testify about bus and train schedules. On those projects I became aware of big differences in the competency and organization of the defense and prosecution in the various counties in our district.


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## Alice

"Scores of guns stolen from trains cause more problems in L.A."


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## Just-Thinking-51

It’s nice to read that dealers are now required to report weapons lost in transit to the ATF. Just shaking my head that this is a new thing.

Nobody want to report cargo thief, so we never know how big of a problem there is. Maybe the insurance company will step up and stop blindly pay out claims, and start asking questions. Or a least required a police report…


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