# July Changes to Lake Shore and Capitol Limited Dining



## AmtrakLKL

Some adjustments are coming to the Lake Shore and Capital menus. Starting July 11, the beef tenderloin salad will be replaced with a hot short rib, polenta and vegetable entree. It will be served with a side salad and the same salted caramel dessert. 

The breakfast box is being slimmed down with mango and grapes replacing the fresh fruit mix along with the Kind bar and banana nut bread being removed. 

_Moderator edit: This topic will now be the home for discussion of Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited dining. The prior topic can be found at:
_
Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL


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## TinCan782

AmtrakLKL said:


> Some adjustments are coming to the Lake Shore and Capital menus. Starting July 11, the beef tenderloin salad will be replaced with a hot short rib, polenta and vegetable entree. It will be served with a side salad and the same salted caramel dessert.
> 
> The breakfast box is being slimmed down with mango and grapes replacing the fresh fruit mix along with the Kind bar and banana nut bread being removed.


An "adjustment" is about all that is. I'd rather have the beet tenderloin. The breakfast? Leave the fruit alone and c'mon, add a boiled egg!


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## cpotisch

FrensicPic said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some adjustments are coming to the Lake Shore and Capital menus. Starting July 11, the beef tenderloin salad will be replaced with a hot short rib, polenta and vegetable entree. It will be served with a side salad and the same salted caramel dessert.
> 
> The breakfast box is being slimmed down with mango and grapes replacing the fresh fruit mix along with the Kind bar and banana nut bread being removed.
> 
> 
> 
> An "adjustment" is about all that is. I'd rather have the beet tenderloin. The breakfast? Leave the fruit alone and c'mon, add a boiled egg!
Click to expand...

I'm focusing more on the fact that they're adding a hot option than on the actual change. If it seems like Amtrak is willing to offer a couple hot entrees, I feel a little bit better about what we eventually might see.


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## jis

It should be relatively simple to add a reasonable hot item for Breakfast too.


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## chrsjrcj

The hot entree sounds alright, and may be what stops me from writing these trains off for future travel. If/when the menu is expanded nationally, I would like to see a little variety in the menu from train to train, but I will not hold my breath.

I am not a big breakfast eater to begin with, but it is still bothersome on the eastbound CL which arrives in DC after lunchtime, without serving lunch. Breakfast sandwich from the cafe it is. At least my drink is still free.


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## cpotisch

It strikes me as odd that 41 days into the new system, they're revising it, but it seems like the only change will be different fruit at breakfast and a hot option replacing the salad. Unless there's more stuff that AmtrakLKL didn't mention, I just don't see the point of making such a minor change.


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## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> It strikes me as odd that 41 days into the new system, they're revising it, but it seems like the only change will be different fruit at breakfast and a hot option replacing the salad. Unless there's more stuff that AmtrakLKL didn't mention, I just don't see the point of making such a minor change.


It’s called “testing the waters”. First they tested with the cold box meals. We saw what the results of that was. Now they’re slowly adding/changing it to continue testing the water. They’re trying to save money but keep the customers happy (despite all the posts here & elsewhere saying they don’t care about the customers).


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## AmtrakLKL

cpotisch said:


> It strikes me as odd that 41 days into the new system, they're revising it, but it seems like the only change will be different fruit at breakfast and a hot option replacing the salad. Unless there's more stuff that AmtrakLKL didn't mention, I just don't see the point of making such a minor change.


I'm happy to see changes, however minor, happening so quickly in response to passenger and crew feedback.


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## Mystic River Dragon

I know I am cynical about this topic, but I think their purpose is more cost cutting, presented (marketed) as trying to keep customers happy. (They don't have to pay for the Kind bars, which are good but perhaps expensive, or the banana bread thing, which just repeats carbs already available in the muffin. I bet they get a terrific deal on the dessert, which sounds awful, even to me with my sweet tooth.)


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## cpotisch

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I know I am cynical about this topic, but I think their purpose is more cost cutting, presented (marketed) as trying to keep customers happy. (They don't have to pay for the Kind bars, which are good but perhaps expensive, or the banana bread thing, which just repeats carbs already available in the muffin. I bet they get a terrific deal on the dessert, which sounds awful, even to me with my sweet tooth.)


Oh, somehow I missed the removal of the Kind bar and banana bread. I will say that it seems like most people like the cheesecake, but I can imagine it's not for everyone. It could be cost cutting, but I feel like this early on in the new system, it wouldn't make much sense to cut back on the menu even further, given the apparent pushback. I guess we'll see soon.


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## jis

Since they had said from the get go that they will make adjustments based on feedback, now that they are doing so should be no surprise IMHO.

Both the proposed changes appear to be consisted with even the issues discussed on AU by its learned members.


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## Chey

FrensicPic said:


> An "adjustment" is about all that is. I'd rather have the beet tenderloin. The breakfast? Leave the fruit alone and c'mon, add a boiled egg!


The beef tenderloin salad was the entrée I was most looking forward to. A hot short rib just doesn't excite me, I don't know what polenta would do to my blood sugar and the veggies I've had before from the diner were never anything to write home about. Disappointing...

Breakfast sounds okay, I understand why someone would prefer eggs though.


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## Palmland

Look at the bright side of all this - no need to leave a tip at meals! But, I'm glad to see a hot meal dinner option.

But for those of us wanting a high protein low carb diet, breakfast is still a disaster. Is it so hard to produce an egg mcmuffin type sandwich (no cheese needed).


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## cpotisch

If they offered a hot veggie burger, which I imagine they could do if they can handle a hot short rib, then I'd be fine. Annoyingly, I haven't been able to find anything about the vegan wrap or any of the stuff that it comes with. From what the menu says, I do not find it appealing, and until I hear otherwise...


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## tommylicious

Just don't ride these lines and warn people who are contemplating it ! Zero protein breakfast awful. We already booked air instead of Amtrak for a fall trip solely because of these downgrades.


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## crescent-zephyr

tommylicious said:


> Just don't ride these lines and warn people who are contemplating it ! Zero protein breakfast awful. We already booked air instead of Amtrak for a fall trip solely because of these downgrades.


What class of what airline?


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## PVD

The current breakfast box offers 39g of protein. Pretty far from zero. Not my preferred choices of items, and too much sugar and fat for most folks.


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## Mystic River Dragon

PVD--where is the protein? I can see the yogurt might have some, but, except for the Kind bar they are getting rid of, I can't see where more protein would be.


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## PVD

Since I actually got these (breakfast boxes) on different trains I rode, the LSL and the CL, I kept the nutrition/ingredient card that was packed in the box:

Yogurt: 15g, Fruit Plate: 2g Blueberry Muffin: 9g Kashi Bar 3g Kind Bar 6g Banana Bread: 4g


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## Chey

I didn't know they included nutrition/ingredient cards. That's an improvement for me for sure.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Thanks, PVD!




I had no idea a blueberry muffin had all that protein!


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## PVD

In their infinite wisdom they were placed at the bottom of the box where most people probably don't notice them. When I travel, I go for an omelet/french toast/side of bacon, biscuit and small fruit plate type breakfast. It is different from what I usually do at home. So, this is far from an ideal menu for me. But If I expect any comments or observations I make to be taken seriously, I have to strip out the emotion, and stick to the facts.So far, I believe I've done that in any posts on this subject.


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## PVD

Nor did I. Since I don't like blueberries, I traded it with someone else. I would think a plainer muffin (cake,corn, or bran) with a choice of a little fruit spread/jam packet, peanut butter, or butter might be better. I thought the banana bread was pretty good. But as I said before, in order to get the protein from the muffin, you were going overboard on carbs.


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## tommylicious

crescent-zephyr said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just don't ride these lines and warn people who are contemplating it ! Zero protein breakfast awful. We already booked air instead of Amtrak for a fall trip solely because of these downgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> What class of what airline?
Click to expand...

Coach. Barely 1 hour flight.


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## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Nor did I. Since I don't like blueberries, I traded it with someone else.


A bad blueberry muffin is a very sad thing. A good blueberry muffin is of the heavens. As I've said countless times before, I don't like blueberries on their own, but in a muffin, they can be out of this world. You didn't eat it, but did the muffins look fresh and/or good?


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## crescent-zephyr

tommylicious said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just don't ride these lines and warn people who are contemplating it ! Zero protein breakfast awful. We already booked air instead of Amtrak for a fall trip solely because of these downgrades.
> 
> 
> 
> What class of what airline?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Coach. Barely 1 hour flight.
Click to expand...

What Amtrak station pairs are you not taking?


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Since they had said from the get go that they will make adjustments based on feedback, now that they are doing so should be no surprise IMHO. Both the proposed changes appear to be consisted with even the issues discussed on AU by its learned members.


Simply removing items from the one and only breakfast option seems like a pretty cynical reading of the feedback. Other than the lack of hot meals my main issue was the lack of varied options, which doesn't seem to be getting any better as of yet. At this point everything they're adding involves taking something else away.


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## PVD

Keep in mind that my trip was very early into the process, they would likely not have been around long enough to be anything but decent. The question I can not answer: are the caterers buying them in small batches, buying them frozen, prepping and packing them in small batches, or is there a warehouse somewhere with a lifetime supply of blueberry muffins waiting to be used?


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## PVD

That was my point with the "generic muffin" concept. A small tray of spreads/jams would offer many more choices, with very little added labor/handling, and no storage issue other than keeping the butter or non butter pats refrigerated.


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## Mystic River Dragon

The picture of the blueberry muffin looks an awful lot like the blueberry muffins I've seen (eaten) in the lounge at PHL for ages, so my guess is a warehouse with a lifetime supply!


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## Big Iron

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I know I am cynical about this topic, but I think their purpose is more cost cutting, presented (marketed) as trying to keep customers happy. (They don't have to pay for the Kind bars, which are good but perhaps expensive, or the banana bread thing, which just repeats carbs already available in the muffin. I bet they get a terrific deal on the dessert, which sounds awful, even to me with my sweet tooth.)


The dessert in a picture posted by PVD in the other thread showed the dessert made by Daystar Desserts. I find their offerings very good having them in other boxed lunches, purchased from grocers and restaurants. They were an Ashland, VA based company until recently they merged with a Mass. company. The link has a recent article about the company products.

https://www.richmond.com/business/local/sweet-tooth-hanover-s-daystar-desserts-merges-with-another-dessert/article_e3143f34-723e-5915-a100-e44803efffd3.html


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## ainamkartma

PVD said:


> Keep in mind that my trip was very early into the process, they would likely not have been around long enough to be anything but decent. The question I can not answer: are the caterers buying them in small batches, buying them frozen, prepping and packing them in small batches, or is there a warehouse somewhere with a lifetime supply of blueberry muffins waiting to be used?


The menu says they are "fresh prepared locally" or words to that effect. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Ainamkartma


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## crescent-zephyr

They are, ironically, possibly more fresh than the standard Amtrak diner food.


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## PVD

I don't recall posting a picture, perhaps it was someone else....


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## cpotisch

PVD said:


> I don't recall posting a picture, perhaps it was someone else....


I don't recall any AU member posting any picture he/she took. If memory serves, someone did post one or two linked photos of the meals, but I don't think they took it, and I'm sure it wasn't you.


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## MikeM

In the Trains magazine blogs today, one of their staff posted pictures and comments from the Lake Shore on the new diner fare. Probably not something amtrak management will want to frame or feature anywhere.

Meanwhile, has anyone heard more about changing the Texas Eagle to box meals? That surfaced on another thread on this forum two weeks ago, with a change happening in September. I was considering taking it in late September (sleeper ftw to chi, Hiawatha connect to mil) but backed off when it appears I'd be on box lunches. Wondering if blowback on the two current trains could delay or stop this.


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## Sauve850

Im happy they are making adjustments but am certain they know people will complain no matter what they serve. If they went back to the dining car meals as we knew it a year ago or many years ago there would still be complaints. We all have different tastes. I for one am going to ride the CL and try it out.


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## Devil's Advocate

I'm one of the more critical members on the forum when it comes to Amtrak LD dining, but even I didn't have much to complain about during the original nationwide "Chef Inspired" meal era. Those meals may not have been freshly prepared from scratch but the variety, flavor, and texture were a good match for the train. That was the day I had to eat some crow and (happily) admit there was nothing wrong with Amtrak LD sleeper dining. The dining car staff were still kid of rude, especially to first time diners and coach class passengers, but things were really looking up at that point. Unfortunately it only lasted around two years or so. There was another separate rerun of Chef Inspired meals that were more simplistic and less consistent. The only thing I'm looking forward to right now is the new cafe menu, which seems like it should be available as a pre-departure dining option for sleeper pax as well, but whatever.


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## crescent-zephyr

The "chef inspired" meals of around 2013 were the best dinner entrees I've had on a train. They beat the Canadian entrees and what I had on the Pullman Rail trips and Hoosier State trips I've taken.

Mahi Mahi, Beechers macaroni and cheese, and the Lamb Shank were all big winners.


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## Skyline

I don't know why Amtrak can't offer a modest slice of quiche, warmed, at breakfast. Any supplier should be able to accommodate this, and rotate at least three varieties. A normal size quiche should yield at least six slices. Pair that with some fresh fruit and some cold cereal and it should be OK.

In fact quiche is one of those items that could be carried over at lunch time.


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## Ringfinder

I wonder if the MAN in charge is reading all the comments or is he stuck on Twitter?


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## Triley

Skyline said:


> I don't know why Amtrak can't offer a modest slice of quiche, warmed, at breakfast. Any supplier should be able to accommodate this, and rotate at least three varieties. A normal size quiche should yield at least six slices. Pair that with some fresh fruit and some cold cereal and it should be OK.
> 
> In fact quiche is one of those items that could be carried over at lunch time.


Everything must be self contained because there is only one LSA for the entire car. To cook something separate (an entire quiche to be cooked and split/plated) would require a chef as well


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## caravanman

Being honest, I am unlikely to afford to ride in a sleeper again, so the "included" food options are not a massive issue for me. I can bring some instant porridge sachets aboard, and get hot water from the cafe. Bingo! Hot breakfast, along with a bannana or apple. I have also brought hard boiled eggs, these last a few days without refrigeration.

Some folk need particular foods for health reasons, but for most of us an unbalanced diet for a day or two won't do too much harm on a long distance train.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that we can all bring nicer food aboard, even in the sleepers... Eating the Amtrak "offerings" seems more a chore rather than a gastronomic pleasure, judging by these AU forums?

I have not quite understood the "box" meals situation... Are they served in a cafe car where other folk can also consume their own food, or in a quite seperate dinner? Just wondering if it is feasable to add an item of your own food to the included box meals?

Ed,


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## Rheavon

I wonder how it will be heated- if it is convection oven reheated or microwaved.

Also hopefully there's enough for everyone who wants a hot meal.


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## railiner

caravanman said:


> I guess what I am trying to say, is that we can all bring nicer food aboard, even in the sleepers... Eating the Amtrak "offerings" seems more a chore rather than a gastronomic pleasure, judging by these AU forums?
> 
> I have not quite understood the "box" meals situation... Are they served in a cafe car where other folk can also consume their own food, or in a quite seperate dinner? Just wondering if it is feasable to add an item of your own food to the included box meals?
> 
> Ed,


That's a good question...

Typically, they do not permit you to bring your own food to tables where they serve you theirs...but since it is now essentially "self-service" from the counter to the tables, perhaps you can mix your own to what they provide....not sure...


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## Turtle

Never posted in here before, but do read some. Here are my recent meals on the CL

I've had each twice in the last week and presentation was slightly different for each. The chicken was cut and laid out differently in the salad on my return trip. The parmesan crisps were also in the salad instead of bagged separate. And for breakfast the second time the blueberries were already in the yogurt instead of separate on top.


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## Turtle

You place your order with the SCA and designate a time to go pick dinner up. Then you can eat at the tables, in the observation car or your room. It comes in a green bag. For breakfast you just pick it up whenever.


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## cpotisch

Turtle said:


> IMG_3491.jpg


Darn. That does not look like a high quality blueberry muffin.


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## niemi24s

Turtle said:


> Never posted in here before, but do read some. Here are my recent meals on the CL


Thank you, Turtle.

Finally after forty + posts of meaningless blather it takes a brand new forum member to post the very first meaningful thing about the new food items. Congratulations and welcome to the Forum!

How'd the stuff taste?


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## Turtle

Haha. Thanks.

The salad was not bad. I couldn't eat the pasta as I'm gluten sensitive. So likewise I didn't eat any of the breakfast bread.

I don't like that there are no non caffeine soda options with dinner. No more Mist or whatever they had. They do have sparkling water and ginger ale.

What bothers me most (other than the lack of the food I loved) is the waste. You have to take the whole boxed meal even if you want just one thing. Then people just throw the rest away. I hated doing that, but had no way to take it with me on my trip. The cheesecake comes in a glass Mason jar. Since when are they disposable? I did wash mine out and save them.

My son only wanted chips. Rather than get a whole meal just to throw 95% of it away we bought chips at the cafe.


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## Turtle

I will say the presentation was top notch. It was packaged very nicely. Fake silverware was rolled in the thickest napkin I've ever used (was paper, but felt like cloth). Plastic containers had fancy designs and were very strong. Came in the green bag to carry it in. Box was like balsa wood and not strong, so it's good they had the bag... But how many bags get thrown away?


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## cpotisch

niemi24s said:


> Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Never posted in here before, but do read some. Here are my recent meals on the CL
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, Turtle.
> Finally after forty + posts of meaningless blather it takes a brand new forum member to post the very first meaningful thing about the new food items. Congratulations and welcome to the Forum!
> 
> How'd the stuff taste?
Click to expand...

While I greatly appreciate the photos and info Turtle posted, it seems a bit harsh to label every single post up to this point “meaningless blather.” Also, Turtle joined in January of last year.


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## Bob Dylan

I'm finding this thread to be very informative and see no "blather".( that's for trainorders! LOL)

It does sound like Amtrak is trying to come up with a better menu based on feedback from actual riders but there does seem to still be too much unhealthy stuff in the meals and lots of trash generated by this system.

Why no "Hot " Breakfast choice yet?


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## tommylicious

Hot breakfast! Nuke croissant egg, cheese sandwiches?


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## cpotisch

Bob Dylan said:


> I'm finding this thread to be very informative and see no "blather".( that's for trainorders! LOL)
> 
> It does sound like Amtrak is trying to come up with a better menu based on feedback from actual riders but there does seem to still be too much unhealthy stuff in the meals and lots of trash generated by this system.
> 
> Why no "Hot " Breakfast choice yet?


I’m not sure Amtrak is trying to come up with a better menu for passengers’ sake. Perhaps their thinking is that passengers don’t like the new meals, so giving them less food must be what they want.


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## TinCan782

Bob Dylan said:


> I'm finding this thread to be very informative and see no "blather".( that's for trainorders! LOL)
> 
> It does sound like Amtrak is trying to come up with a better menu based on feedback from actual riders but there does seem to still be too much unhealthy stuff in the meals and* lots of trash generated* by this system.
> 
> Why no "Hot " Breakfast choice yet?


Maybe the "trash generated" is how they are determining what is disliked in each box!






Sign me up for a hot breakfast choice too.


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## Mystic River Dragon

I do agree that the "blather" comment was a bit harsh--PVD, for example, has presented what he found clearly, succinctly, and helpfully, without any blather at all.

I am sure I have blathered on somewhere here, but if you can't blather with your friends, who can you do it with?


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## Turtle

I'd like a hot breakfast as well, sausage and eggs would be great. It is a long ride with just a cold breakfast, especially last week when we didn't get to DC until 5pm.


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## cpotisch

Buttermilk Pancakes and/or Railroad French Toast would be great. Both can be microwaved or convection ovened.


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## frequentflyer

Bob Dylan said:


> I'm finding this thread to be very informative and see no "blather".( that's for trainorders! LOL)


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## pennyk

Turtle said:


> Never posted in here before, but do read some. Here are my recent meals on the CL
> 
> I've had each twice in the last week and presentation was slightly different for each. The chicken was cut and laid out differently in the salad on my return trip. The parmesan crisps were also in the salad instead of bagged separate. And for breakfast the second time the blueberries were already in the yogurt instead of separate on top.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_3482.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_3491.jpg


Thanks for posting Turtle. Do you recall whether the ingredients for any of the items in the dinner box were listed? I have food allergies and do not know if I can eat the chicken. I assume I can eat the salad with oil and vinegar I bring from home. I will be on the eastbound Capitol Limited in a couple of weeks.


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## Turtle

Ok. I brought one of the muffins and the banana bread home. They are the ones I got this morning. My boyfriend says the muffin is moist and good. Perkins quality.


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## Turtle

As someone mentioned there was a nutritional card. I didn't get a photo. If the item wasn't packaged with nutrition info on it, it was on the card. There was all allergen list for each item on the card, as well as ingredients.


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## Turtle

Another picture of the chicken salad


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## pennyk

Turtle said:


> What bothers me most (other than the lack of the food I loved) is the waste. You have to take the whole boxed meal even if you want just one thing. Then people just throw the rest away. I hated doing that, but had no way to take it with me on my trip.


Do you think it would be possible to give away unopened items (dessert, pasta salad) to other sleeper passengers or walk into coach and give away there (rather than throw away)?


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## KmH

Ringfinder said:


> I wonder if the MAN in charge is reading all the comments or is he stuck on Twitter?


Fortunately, no 1 man is in charge, including the current Amtrak CEO and the current *potus* - if that is who you are referring to regards being "stuck on Twitter".

The current Amtrak CEO is answerable to the board and congress while the current *potus* is answerable to every US citizen and congress.


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## Turtle

pennyk said:


> Turtle said:
> 
> 
> 
> What bothers me most (other than the lack of the food I loved) is the waste. You have to take the whole boxed meal even if you want just one thing. Then people just throw the rest away. I hated doing that, but had no way to take it with me on my trip.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think it would be possible to give away unopened items (dessert, pasta salad) to other sleeper passengers or walk into coach and give away there (rather than throw away)?
Click to expand...

I think so. I originally brought my first set to DC in hopes of giving them to a homeless person, just never worked out.


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## Skyline

Triley said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why Amtrak can't offer a modest slice of quiche, warmed, at breakfast. Any supplier should be able to accommodate this, and rotate at least three varieties. A normal size quiche should yield at least six slices. Pair that with some fresh fruit and some cold cereal and it should be OK.
> 
> In fact quiche is one of those items that could be carried over at lunch time.
> 
> 
> 
> Everything must be self contained because there is only one LSA for the entire car. To cook something separate (an entire quiche to be cooked and split/plated) would require a chef as well
Click to expand...

So...

The vendor pre-packages the quiche. Problem solved. The quiche would already be pre-"cooked" -- just needing to be gently reheated.


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## Skyline

railiner said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say, is that we can all bring nicer food aboard, even in the sleepers... Eating the Amtrak "offerings" seems more a chore rather than a gastronomic pleasure, judging by these AU forums?
> 
> I have not quite understood the "box" meals situation... Are they served in a cafe car where other folk can also consume their own food, or in a quite seperate dinner? Just wondering if it is feasable to add an item of your own food to the included box meals?
> 
> Ed,
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good question...
> 
> Typically, they do not permit you to bring your own food to tables where they serve you theirs...but since it is now essentially "self-service" from the counter to the tables, perhaps you can mix your own to what they provide....not sure...
Click to expand...

If Amtrak has sufficient staff to be the "bring-your-own police," they have sufficient staff to cook a real meal for you!


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## CHvision

I wonder this: how come coachclass customers can't have dining service but only sleeping car passengers do?


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## railiner

CHvision said:


> I wonder this: how come coachclass customers can't have dining service but only sleeping car passengers do?


I agree that when you look at the big picture, the new 'system' does seem convoluted...

I can only guess, that it is a result of the earlier practice of including meals with sleeper fares. And since they 'think' they have an idea of how many of those included meals will be taken, by the sleeper passenger's...that is all that they are stocking.

The biggest shame is that they spent all that money for those complete Viewliner diner's, and they will never be used as designed with their full galley capability.

I think that they should eliminate the included meals, lower the fares, like they did with the Star, and serve the same menu, with hot items in both the coach and sleeper cafe's for purchase.

They can either let coach passenger's into the Viewliner cafe or not, depending on need...


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## keelhauled

First we had the dining car. Then we had the diner-lite. Now we have meal boxes. Next...


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## railiner

keelhauled said:


> First we had the dining car. Then we had the diner-lite. Now we have meal boxes. Next...


Love that! Besides, didn't you know that....


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## caravanman

I guess "real men" don't need a guidebook...

Ed.


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## crescent-zephyr

If we can keep the physical diners on the operating roster, and we can keep the LD trains running, there is always hope we can get full service diners back.


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## iplaybass

crescent-zephyr said:


> If we can keep the physical diners on the operating roster, and we can keep the LD trains running, there is always hope we can get full service diners back.


It's a matter of the mandate to make F&B essentially self-sufficient, and an airline CEO who thinks no trip should last more than six or seven hours, and that comfort during travel is overrated.


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## Manny T

Here's what it's like to travel overnight (from Budapest to Bucharest) without a dining car (or cafe, for that matter): check out 4:54 where the traveler almost "dies" without morning coffee, jumps off the train to get some at a station kiosk in Romania, and they won't accept his Hungarian money: youtube.com/watch?v=U30EVCFjeZc

Can't help thinking Amtrak is starting to resemble a post-Soviet eastern European passenger carrier...I hope not.


----------



## TiBike

Thanks for posting this - brought back memories. I took that route as far as Oradea, and back to Budapest, last year. The train I was on had a diner of sorts (and allowed roll-on bikes, for a nominal charge .

Amtrak and "post-Soviet eastern European passenger carrier" have a lot in common – level of cleanliness, service attitude and quality of "traditional" diner service for starters. In my experience, post-Soviet on time performance is better (but I don't know overall stats – the train in the video was an hour late). Much better frequency and choice of destinations on what we'd call corridors, though. In that regard, post-Soviet style service would be a step up.

Compared to the OBB Railjet that brought me to Budapest, though, "traditional" Amtrak and post-Soviet train service is pretty much the same.



Manny T said:


> Here's what it's like to travel overnight (from Budapest to Bucharest) without a dining car (or cafe, for that matter): check out 4:54 where the traveler almost "dies" without morning coffee, jumps off the train to get some at a station kiosk in Romania, and they won't accept his Hungarian money: youtube.com/watch?v=U30EVCFjeZc
> 
> Can't help thinking Amtrak is starting to resemble a post-Soviet eastern European passenger carrier...I hope not.


----------



## MikefromCrete

TiBike said:


> Thanks for posting this - brought back memories. I took that route as far as Oradea, and back to Budapest, last year. The train I was on had a diner of sorts (and allowed roll-on bikes, for a nominal charge .
> 
> Amtrak and "post-Soviet eastern European passenger carrier" have a lot in common – level of cleanliness, service attitude and quality of "traditional" diner service for starters. In my experience, post-Soviet on time performance is better (but I don't know overall stats – the train in the video was an hour late). Much better frequency and choice of destinations on what we'd call corridors, though. In that regard, post-Soviet style service would be a step up.
> 
> Compared to the OBB Railjet that brought me to Budapest, though, "traditional" Amtrak and post-Soviet train service is pretty much the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what it's like to travel overnight (from Budapest to Bucharest) without a dining car (or cafe, for that matter): check out 4:54 where the traveler almost "dies" without morning coffee, jumps off the train to get some at a station kiosk in Romania, and they won't accept his Hungarian money: youtube.com/watch?v=U30EVCFjeZc
> 
> Can't help thinking Amtrak is starting to resemble a post-Soviet eastern European passenger carrier...I hope not.
Click to expand...

You guys are sounding like Congressman Mica. He also called Amtrak a "Soviet" carrier --- and look that brought us.


----------



## bratkinson

Based on the previous pictures of the 'meal in a box', it looks like I'll get something hot in the lounge and stop on the way back to my roomette for a coffee or soda. I've got 2 nights on the Lakeshore Ltd and 1 on the Capitol Ltd in the next 2 months and there's no way I can fathom eating a gooey mess from a cellophane bag/wrapper. And the morning yogurt? When I eat that, it comes right back up.

Oh, and having to pay an estimated $60-70 built-in 'extra' for the cost of a real dining car meal and not getting it? I can only wonder how many of the once or twice per year sleeper passengers will put up with the cold garbage? Why do I say $60-70? Two people in a roomette both having steak dinner and bacon & eggs for breakfast. That's roughly the menu price of yore...


----------



## Twinkletoes

I just took the Lake Shore Limited last week in two legs: Chicago to Cleveland July 28th) and then Cleveland to Boston (July 1st) . I sampled the dinner and breakfast boxes on leg one. There was a huge box with a super thick paper napkin and silver colored plastic cutlery. The beef was odd appearing in the beef salad. It was formed beef product circles (approximate 3-inch diameter and 1/4-inch thickness) that looked like brown (beef) and white (fat) lace. Not attractive or tasty. I tried a bit despite the unappetizing appearance; gave up on it; and went to the dessert. It was OK, but nothing special. I hadn't planned to be around for breakfast since the scheduled arrival time was 5:30 am. This was no problem because the train did not arrive in Cleveland until 9:30 am! As others mentioned, you get a container of melon with a box of bread and two bars. I don't eat yogurt so the parfait was tossed out. The giant "blueberry" muffin was poorly made and had only a few blueberries that had sunk to the bottom. I am still looking and the banana bread still in its paper. I may open and taste it tomorrow.

I next took the Cleveland to Boston Lake Shore Limited. It was supposed to leave at 5:50 am but didn't leave until 9:44 am. (Eventually we got into Boston at 1:30 am instead of 8:00 pm). On the trip back, I knew better and chose not to eat out of the box: I grabbed a breakfast sandwich at Dunkin' up the street from the station. For my second meal, I just went to the snack coach and paid for a nice hot burger. My beverage was my complimentary sleeper beverage.

All things considered I'd rather they gave up the pretense of elegance of the green beribboned white box with lemon wet wipe. I felt like this was a big attempt to make us believe we had first class meal service. I would prefer cold conventional sandwiches like ham or tuna and maybe a microwave hamburger and breakfast sandwich options. Perhaps they could also consider an option that included a voucher or coupon to get something from the regular snack car.

I'll also mention that the compartment had a plastic container of toiletries --shower cap, shampoo, soap, body wash, sewing kit, make up accessories. Another "you no longer get a hot meal, but you're still special" ploy.

All things considered, I am more concerned about the extreme lateness. I like sleeper accommodations because of the bed and privacy. However if they still keep a diner car with tables (an option for eating ones box) and a server some limited microwave options should be considered such as the snack car burgers or pizza for dinner/lunch and cold cereal and milk or oatmeal for breakfast.


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## Turtle

I know this is a food thread, but the toiletries were mentioned so I thought I'd add a picture.


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## cpotisch

Twinkletoes said:


> I just took the Lake Shore Limited last week in two legs: Chicago to Cleveland July 28th) and then Cleveland to Boston (July 1st) . I sampled the dinner and breakfast boxes on leg one. There was a huge box with a super thick paper napkin and silver colored plastic cutlery. The beef was odd appearing in the beef salad. It was formed beef product circles (approximate 3-inch diameter and 1/4-inch thickness) that looked like brown (beef) and white (fat) lace. Not attractive or tasty. I tried a bit despite the unappetizing appearance; gave up on it; and went to the dessert. It was OK, but nothing special. I hadn't planned to be around for breakfast since the scheduled arrival time was 5:30 am. This was no problem because the train did not arrive in Cleveland until 9:30 am! As others mentioned, you get a container of melon with a box of bread and two bars. I don't eat yogurt so the parfait was tossed out. The giant "blueberry" muffin was poorly made and had only a few blueberries that had sunk to the bottom. I am still looking and the banana bread still in its paper. I may open and taste it tomorrow.


Thank you for all that info, and I'm sorry to hear that you weren't exactly smitten with the meals you were served. One question, though: How did you end up with a dinner box on 448 on the first leg? Did they offer you food out of Chicago or something?


----------



## dlagrua

I find the elimination of hot meal service on the Eastern trains disheartening. If Amtrak must layoff, reassign the FSA's and downgrade the food, the solution may be to bring aboard pre-prepared meals that are heated in a convection oven by a single FSA as on the Cardinal. Those that have traveled aboard the Cardinal may agree that while the food is not top notch, it is IMO better than what you get in a cold boxed lunch. IMO, some FSA's have made the Cardinal food acceptable. One year we had an egg omelet and it was dry and rubbery. On the next trip that same omelet was moist and soft. The science is probably in the reheating time. To help the FSA with Cardnal type meals, Amtrak can request that used plates be discarded by the diners in a bin. The new Fresh Choices meal plan is certainly less than ideal so this suggestion for an upgrade could be be a compromise that can keep some passengers happy. As of now Amtrak travel without full dining service is off the list for us. If they want us back Amtrak needs to do better..


----------



## bratkinson

dlagrua said:


> As of now Amtrak travel without full dining service is off the list for us. If they want us back Amtrak needs to do better..


I suspect those will be my sentiments as well after my upcoming trips on the Lakeshore and Capitol. Unfortunately, I live in New England, and getting to Chicago doesn't leave much choice. If the boxed meals 'spread' like I suspect they will, I'll start using my select plus status AGR points riding the Acela and go to Canada to ride REAL long distance trains with REAL food service.


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## Skyline

dlagrua said:


> I find the elimination of hot meal service on the Eastern trains disheartening. If Amtrak must layoff, reassign the FSA's and downgrade the food, the solution may be to bring aboard pre-prepared meals that are heated in a convection oven by a single FSA as on the Cardinal. Those that have traveled aboard the Cardinal may agree that while the food is not top notch, it is IMO better than what you get in a cold boxed lunch. IMO, some FSA's have made the Cardinal food acceptable. One year we had an egg omelet and it was dry and rubbery. On the next trip that same omelet was moist and soft. The science is probably in the reheating time. To help the FSA with Cardnal type meals, Amtrak can request that used plates be discarded by the diners in a bin. The new Fresh Choices meal plan is certainly less than ideal so this suggestion for an upgrade could be be a compromise that can keep some passengers happy. As of now Amtrak travel without full dining service is off the list for us. If they want us back Amtrak needs to do better..



Can't argue with you, but just so you understand you may be doing exactly what Amtrak wants you to do -- quit riding certain LD trains. It fits perfectly with their agenda to only run shorter-distance "corridor" trains.


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## Tennessee Traveler

bratkinson said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> As of now Amtrak travel without full dining service is off the list for us. If they want us back Amtrak needs to do better..
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect those will be my sentiments as well after my upcoming trips on the Lakeshore and Capitol. Unfortunately, I live in New England, and getting to Chicago doesn't leave much choice. If the boxed meals 'spread' like I suspect they will, I'll start using my select plus status AGR points riding the Acela and go to Canada to ride REAL long distance trains with REAL food service.
Click to expand...

I don't expect the "contemporary dining" to spread to two night nor two full day LD trains but should that happen, be prepared if you choose to travel THE CANADIAN to be minimum 12 hours late and frequently 24 hours late and in one case recently 45 hours late. As of my 14 hour late trip in February 2018, I did not find the normal sleeper fare dining room had as much variety as the Amtrak trains still using regular hot dining car meals. And the CANADIAN has introduced Prestige Class with fare of about $5000 per one way trip between Vancouver and Toronto and those passengers have exclusive use of the Park Dome Car during most of the daylight hours in season late April through October.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Quality of the toiletries is a nice surprise--Gilchrist & Soames, established in London. (By the way, are they still British, or did someone buy them?)

If the boxed meals were the same quality as the toiletries, I would have no complaints.


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## Skyline

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Quality of the toiletries is a nice surprise--Gilchrist & Soames, established in London. (By the way, are they still British, or did someone buy them?)
> 
> If the boxed meals were the same quality as the toiletries, I would have no complaints.



Yes, just so the toiletries don't BECOME the boxed meals!


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## tommylicious

FYI on the Facebook group "Amtrak Fans", there are 2 unequivocal condemnations by actual riders (with photos) experiencing this service. One of the reviewers has been riding since 1953 and says he's done riding Amtrak because of the negative, deprecated dining car experience.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Interesting Column by Ben Wear( His Column is called "Getting There") in Monday's 7/09 Austin American-Statesman entitled "Want to Dine on Amtrak? Better Get it while its Hot!"

It includes a nice picture of the Texas Eagle rolling thru the High Rises that surround the Amtrak Station in downtown Ausin.

After discussing the recent "Contemporary and Fresh Dining Choices" on the LakeShore and Cap, he quotes Amtrak Flak Marc Magliari as saying this will save Amtrak a Million Dollars a year, which is crumbs when it comes to the Federal Budget.

He goes on to talk about he and his family talking about taking a Long Distance Trip trip before its too late, and quotes Charles LeCody,CEO of the Rail Passenger Association, as predicting the demise of the Full Service Diner on ALL Amtrak Routes, with Airline style Heat and Eat Meals becoming the Norm.

Seems we're headed that way, nostalgia and hope won't prevent this, only action by concerned riders and political pressure by the real rulers of Amtrak in Washington and the various States, the Politicians!


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## Palmetto

Bob, I think you are referring to Peter Le Cody, correct?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Palmetto said:


> Bob, I think you are referring to Peter Le Cody, correct?


Not sure, I used the name from the Column?


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## bretton88

Bob Dylan said:


> Interesting Column by Ben Wear( His Column is called "Getting There") in Monday's 7/09 Austin American-Statesman entitled "Want to Dine on Amtrak? Better Get it while its Hot!"
> 
> It includes a nice picture of the Texas Eagle rolling thru the High Rises that surround the Amtrak Station in downtown Ausin.
> 
> After discussing the recent "Contemporary and Fresh Dining Choices" on the LakeShore and Cap, he quotes Amtrak Flak Marc Magliari as saying this will save Amtrak a Million Dollars a year, which is crumbs when it comes to the Federal Budget.
> 
> He goes on to talk about he and his family talking about taking a Long Distance Trip trip before its too late, and quotes Charles LeCody,CEO of the Rail Passenger Association, as predicting the demise of the Full Service Diner on ALL Amtrak Routes, with Airline style Heat and Eat Meals becoming the Norm.
> 
> Seems we're headed that way, nostalgia and hope won't prevent this, only action by concerned riders and political pressure by the real rulers of Amtrak in Washington and the various States, the Politicians!


It's not crumbs when you're under a federal mandate to eliminate food and beverage losses.


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## dogbert617

Bob Dylan said:


> Interesting Column by Ben Wear( His Column is called "Getting There") in Monday's 7/09 Austin American-Statesman entitled "Want to Dine on Amtrak? Better Get it while its Hot!"
> 
> It includes a nice picture of the Texas Eagle rolling thru the High Rises that surround the Amtrak Station in downtown Ausin.
> 
> After discussing the recent "Contemporary and Fresh Dining Choices" on the LakeShore and Cap, he quotes Amtrak Flak Marc Magliari as saying this will save Amtrak a Million Dollars a year, which is crumbs when it comes to the Federal Budget.
> 
> He goes on to talk about he and his family talking about taking a Long Distance Trip trip before its too late, and quotes Charles LeCody,CEO of the Rail Passenger Association, as predicting the demise of the Full Service Diner on ALL Amtrak Routes, with Airline style Heat and Eat Meals becoming the Norm.
> 
> Seems we're headed that way, nostalgia and hope won't prevent this, only action by concerned riders and political pressure by the real rulers of Amtrak in Washington and the various States, the Politicians!


On some recent Amtrak thread on flyertalk.com , a rider said that an Amtrak employee on one of the long distance trains overheard a manager or someone higher up say that if the revised dining service was implemented successfully, that it might be done on all Amtrak long distance trains that still have regular dining service.



Sigh, since that'd take away a lot of the appeal of riding on Amtrak(the dining car). I'm hoping the LSL/Capitol Limited experiment fails, and that they don't implement dining car service cuts on all long distance trains. But who knows? I guess I will have to get used to that, since I already have seen slow signs of this more and more happening(i.e. reading about LSL/Capitol having downgraded dining service, Silver Star, and of course the fact Hiawatha no longer has a cafe car. at least that trip is short, so it wasn't as hard as I thought to get used to that change as often I take my own snacks on anyway).



Bob Dylan said:


> Interesting Column by Ben Wear( His Column is called "Getting There") in Monday's 7/09 Austin American-Statesman entitled "Want to Dine on Amtrak? Better Get it while its Hot!"
> 
> It includes a nice picture of the Texas Eagle rolling thru the High Rises that surround the Amtrak Station in downtown Ausin.
> 
> After discussing the recent "Contemporary and Fresh Dining Choices" on the LakeShore and Cap, he quotes Amtrak Flak Marc Magliari as saying this will save Amtrak a Million Dollars a year, which is crumbs when it comes to the Federal Budget.
> 
> He goes on to talk about he and his family talking about taking a Long Distance Trip trip before its too late, and quotes Charles LeCody,CEO of the Rail Passenger Association, as predicting the demise of the Full Service Diner on ALL Amtrak Routes, with Airline style Heat and Eat Meals becoming the Norm.
> 
> Seems we're headed that way, nostalgia and hope won't prevent this, only action by concerned riders and political pressure by the real rulers of Amtrak in Washington and the various States, the Politicians!


I should find that article, and read that for myself. Sadly I worry that writer is right, that one of these days it probably will occur on all Amtrak long distance trains with traditional dining car service.



I hope I'm proven wrong, but who knows? Still with what I read about the waste generated even from dining car service downgrades(i.e. the example someone mentioned that cheesecake is served in a real glass MASON JAR, ***?), that Amtrak is going down the wrong path with this LSL/Cap downgraded dining car experiment. I probably should've tried a meal in that dining car when I went on the last day of traditional dining service on May 31st(coming back from Pittsburgh to Chicago), but had some leftovers from a meal I had at a Pittsburgh restaurant the night before and only reason I didn't go to the dining car. Ah well, maybe I'll get another chance to eat out of the dining car, on one of the trains that goes west of Chicago while I still can on a future Amtrak trip before the end of this year.

I am still worried so darned much that the Southwest Chief will be cut in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico, so I'm already very strongly thinking about some sort of trip on that route(at least to Albuquerque, if not all the way further west) before the end of this year. Why anyway hasn't Amtrak talked about rerouting the train onto the BNSF Transcon through Amarillo, TX, rather than the stupid idea of bus bridging the 2 ends service will only go to if they are foolish enough to do that? This was talked about, if Amtrak hadn't had secured funds to upgrade the track conditions in western Kansas, Colorado, and northern New Mexico a few years ago.


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## Manny T

" I'm hoping the LSL/Capitol Limited experiment fails...." (previous post)

I have a question about this. How can the LSL/Cap Ltd experiment "fail"? It was designed to save money, and it will save money. Success! I don't see how any collateral damage, like decreased rider satisfaction, will matter. And if there is a decline in ridership on those lines, I very much doubt it will be attributed to the food service changes. No, I fear the experiment was a "success" the moment it was implemented, from the Amtrak accountants' POV.


----------



## cpotisch

Manny T said:


> " I'm hoping the LSL/Capitol Limited experiment fails...." (previous post)
> 
> I have a question about this. How can the LSL/Cap Ltd experiment "fail"? It was designed to save money, and it will save money. Success! I don't see how any collateral damage, like decreased rider satisfaction, will matter. And if there is a decline in ridership on those lines, I very much doubt it will be attributed to the food service changes. No, I fear the experiment was a "success" the moment it was implemented, from the Amtrak accountants' POV.


If ridership drops clearly and significantly enough to more than compensate for the $3.4M saved by the new system, it is theoretically possible that they see it as a failure and go back to the old system. Is it very likely? No. But it's possible.


----------



## jis

That will be a more meaningful criterion for the Cap. The LSL is going through such serious differences in operation through this summer that it will be very hard to uniquely attribute any ridership changes to food service IMHO.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> That will be a more meaningful criterion for the Cap. The LSL is going through such serious differences in operation through this summer that it will be very hard to uniquely attribute any ridership changes to food service IMHO.


Quite true. At this point I'm more wishing that the other trains don't get the treatment than having the LSL and Cap go back to the old system. I can (possibly) put up with this for a 17-21 hour ride. But for a two or three night ride, I just can't do it.


----------



## keelhauled

The new version of the menu is up. The beef entree is described as "Slow braised beef short rib with polenta and mixed baby vegetables in a red wine and beer sauce. Served with arcadian lettuce mix, julienne carrots and grape tomatoes with balsamic vinaigrette and salted caramel cheese cake."


----------



## cpotisch

keelhauled said:


> The new version of the menu is up. The beef entree is described as "Slow braised beef short rib with polenta and mixed baby vegetables in a red wine and beer sauce. Served with arcadian lettuce mix, julienne carrots and grape tomatoes with balsamic vinaigrette and salted caramel cheese cake."


That salad sounds very similar to the standard side salad available in the regular diners. If they offered exactly that combination (that salad and the cheesecake) with the black bean veggie burger, everything would be perfect. I'm cautiously optimistic that things are going to get better.


----------



## Rheavon

A few weeks back, I expressed concerns about food for my upcoming trip on the CL. I also inquired if there was any option for reimbursement or some kind of voucher for folks who decline the complimentary alcoholic beverage (I don't drink). I never heard back until today:

Thank you for your comments regarding our upcoming Contemporary Dining service on the _Capitol Limited_ and _Lake Shore Limited _routes. 

Amtrak is introducing new dining options this summer on board these routes. Amtrak aims to provide a more sustainable approach that produces less waste while maintaining the quality that our passengers have come to expect. These new offerings are intended to provide a more contemporary food service and will contribute to improved financial performance on these routes. 

The existing café menu will continue to be available to all passengers. Customers purchasing premium service will have additional amenities including exclusive access to tables in the sleeper lounge or in the private comfort of our passenger’s accommodations. In the future, customers will be able to pre-select their meals prior to departure. Our new service will allow additional investment into these routes to further improve the passenger experience.

As information, dining options have been updated on Amtrak.com to include the recent changes to our _Capitol Limited_ and _Lake Shore Limited_ service. You can view all long-distance dining options at the following link: Dining Car Menus _*(This Link didn't work, but I'm guessing it might be the July 11th menu that was posted a few posts ago in this thread)*_. In addition, it is not possible to get a credit for lounge car purchases for passengers who do not consume any complimentary alcoholic beverages. 

[SIZE=12pt]Customer comments will play an important role in how we offer our service and we will take your valuable feedback into consideration as we make future changes to the dining experience on our trains. Thank you for taking the time to write to us and we hope to see you on board soon.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Sincerely, [/SIZE]
Donna E.


----------



## Chey

Palmetto said:


> Bob, I think you are referring to Peter Le Cody, correct?


The article quotes someone named Charles LeCody, CEO of RPA. But Jim Mathews is CEO of RPA.

Peter LeCody is Chairman of RPA and President of Texas Rail Advocates. I'd guess that is who the writer talked to, garbling the first name and position...


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

No lounge credit if you don't drink the free alcohol (or soda, either, I assume).

So you are penalized for being health-conscious and not putting garbage in your body, but rewarded for drinking too much.

Also, how are boxes, plastic, and unwrapped uneaten food being thrown away contributing to a sustainable environment?


----------



## JoeBas

bretton88 said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting Column by Ben Wear( His Column is called "Getting There") in Monday's 7/09 Austin American-Statesman entitled "Want to Dine on Amtrak? Better Get it while its Hot!"
> 
> It includes a nice picture of the Texas Eagle rolling thru the High Rises that surround the Amtrak Station in downtown Ausin.
> 
> After discussing the recent "Contemporary and Fresh Dining Choices" on the LakeShore and Cap, he quotes Amtrak Flak Marc Magliari as saying this will save Amtrak a Million Dollars a year, which is crumbs when it comes to the Federal Budget.
> 
> He goes on to talk about he and his family talking about taking a Long Distance Trip trip before its too late, and quotes Charles LeCody,CEO of the Rail Passenger Association, as predicting the demise of the Full Service Diner on ALL Amtrak Routes, with Airline style Heat and Eat Meals becoming the Norm.
> 
> Seems we're headed that way, nostalgia and hope won't prevent this, only action by concerned riders and political pressure by the real rulers of Amtrak in Washington and the various States, the Politicians!
> 
> 
> 
> It's not crumbs when you're under a federal mandate to eliminate food and beverage losses.
Click to expand...

A federal mandate to eliminate crumbs is still crumbs.


----------



## PVD

To me, the best part of what I saw above is acceptance of the concept of pre ordering. That might provide more of the mix and match ability that pretty much everyone favors.


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## bratkinson

It's apparent to all that Mr Andersons' disdain for long distance train will, if allowed to continue, force all but short-haul riders to fly or drive instead. It's well documented in many places that airlines see themselves as long distance carriers, and less than 500 miles or so should be relegated to buses & trains. I suspect that is still his mindset.

So, cutting the Pacific Parlor cars, eliminating CHI-NYP trains for the summer, providing dog food in a box to passengers paying $70-100 in the price of their sleeping car tickets for full diner service, and likely implementing a bus bridge on the Southwest Chief are all various ways to drive traffic away from LD trains. I say this very carefully....has anyone checked to see how many shares of airline stock and/or options he controls?

I can only wonder how Congress will feel when they discover $70-80 million in brand new dining cars sitting idle or providing so-called first class lounge duty without anything for sale and everyone has to sit in bare, cramped booths. Hardly a lounge by any stretch of the imagination, in my opinion. Or, perhaps he plans to remove the diners on all Superliner trains, put the new Viewliner diners in front of the transition/dorm car and call that the 'replacement' Pacific Parlor Cars...

Regardless of whether Mr Anderson is 'making the desired numbers' like all business management must do to keep their job, eliminating all LD service and selling off the equipment will REALLY be saving money for Amtrak! Regretably, I can't help but think that will be a reality within the next 10 years or so.


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## Dakota 400

PVD said:


> To me, the best part of what I saw above is acceptance of the concept of pre ordering. That might provide more of the mix and match ability that pretty much everyone favors.


Re: the concept of pre-ordering a meal or two: Is the computer system that Amtrak has capable of handling such details?

Does such a concept simply add more complexity into a reservation that will be difficult to achieve?

Singapore Airlines has a "Book the Cook" option for Business Class guests where specific meals can be ordered from an extensive menu. Is Amtrak, currently, at the same operational level as Singapore Airlines?


----------



## cpotisch

Dakota 400 said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the best part of what I saw above is acceptance of the concept of pre ordering. That might provide more of the mix and match ability that pretty much everyone favors.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: the concept of pre-ordering a meal or two: Is the computer system that Amtrak has capable of handling such details?
> 
> Does such a concept simply add more complexity into a reservation that will be difficult to achieve?
Click to expand...

Not really. Just add an extra step in the booking process where you check off the options. I see no reason why that would be an issue.


----------



## Palmetto

Dakota 400 said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the best part of what I saw above is acceptance of the concept of pre ordering. That might provide more of the mix and match ability that pretty much everyone favors.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: the concept of pre-ordering a meal or two: Is the computer system that Amtrak has capable of handling such details?
> 
> Does such a concept simply add more complexity into a reservation that will be difficult to achieve?
> 
> Singapore Airlines has a "Book the Cook" option for Business Class guests where specific meals can be ordered from an extensive menu. Is Amtrak, currently, at the same operational level as Singapore Airlines?
Click to expand...

American Airlines goes further. You can pre-order food if you're traveling economy. Did it last month.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the best part of what I saw above is acceptance of the concept of pre ordering. That might provide more of the mix and match ability that pretty much everyone favors.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: the concept of pre-ordering a meal or two: Is the computer system that Amtrak has capable of handling such details?
> 
> Does such a concept simply add more complexity into a reservation that will be difficult to achieve?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not really. Just add an extra step in the booking process where you check off the options. I see no reason why that would be an issue.
Click to expand...

Being someone who writes applications, it's not just "add where you can check off the options". There's a whole lot more going on behind the scenes. And take it from me, the "that looks simple enough to do" usually turn out to be not so simple.

(I have a few grey hairs and bald spots to prove it.




)


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the best part of what I saw above is acceptance of the concept of pre ordering. That might provide more of the mix and match ability that pretty much everyone favors.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: the concept of pre-ordering a meal or two: Is the computer system that Amtrak has capable of handling such details?
> 
> Does such a concept simply add more complexity into a reservation that will be difficult to achieve?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not really. Just add an extra step in the booking process where you check off the options. I see no reason why that would be an issue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Being someone who writes applications, it's not just "add where you can check off the options". There's a whole lot more going on behind the scenes. And take it from me, the "that looks simple enough to do" usually turn out to be not so simple.
> 
> (I have a few grey hairs and bold spots to prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> )
Click to expand...

I've done a lot of programming as well. I feel like the difficult part is going to be _after _they have collected everybody's meal choices. IMO, it's going to be difficult compiling all the choices that people have made, ordering the correct amount of food to each train, making sure each passenger gets what they ordered, etc. My feeling us that a lot of the tech infrastructure needed to take peoples' orders and record it, is already in place.


----------



## iplaybass

My time is coming... I'll try the hot entree Thursday night, and pray for an on-time arrival in DC. I will have backup from Giordano's, and day-old breads from... Any suggestions for a good bakery in Chicago?


----------



## amtrakpass

"Any suggestions for a good bakery in Chicago?" You could probably find something in the french market on the lower level of the Ogilvie Train Station. https://frenchmarketchicago.com/vendors/

Otherwise there is an Austrian place in Lincoln Park called Vienna Cafe you might think about.

http://www.cafeviennachicago.com/about.html


----------



## PVD

My comment on the pre ordering of meals was based on the response that a previous poster received from Amtrak, not conjecture on my part. Whether or not they have the ability to do it on their present system I can't say, but apparently either they think they can, or will soon be able too.


----------



## jebr

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the best part of what I saw above is acceptance of the concept of pre ordering. That might provide more of the mix and match ability that pretty much everyone favors.
> 
> 
> 
> Re: the concept of pre-ordering a meal or two: Is the computer system that Amtrak has capable of handling such details?
> 
> Does such a concept simply add more complexity into a reservation that will be difficult to achieve?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not really. Just add an extra step in the booking process where you check off the options. I see no reason why that would be an issue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Being someone who writes applications, it's not just "add where you can check off the options". There's a whole lot more going on behind the scenes. And take it from me, the "that looks simple enough to do" usually turn out to be not so simple.
> 
> (I have a few grey hairs and bold spots to prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've done a lot of programming as well. I feel like the difficult part is going to be _after _they have collected everybody's meal choices. IMO, it's going to be difficult compiling all the choices that people have made, ordering the correct amount of food to each train, making sure each passenger gets what they ordered, etc. My feeling us that a lot of the tech infrastructure needed to take peoples' orders and record it, is already in place.
Click to expand...

The reservation system Amtrak uses, ARROW, is actually quite limited in scope. I'm not sure if it's designed to handle meal selections at all or, if it is, if it can handle it well enough to accommodate the use case desired. If it can't handle it, it's probably not terribly difficult to spin up a web page that prompts for a reservation number and phone number/email, pulls the details down from ARROW, presents the options available for that train, and then stores it in a separate database. It could even look through after the deadline closes to pre-order to see if any cancellations have occurred and, if they have, remove them from the list. However, there may be a lot more work to make the process look streamlined or as part of the actual ticketing process, instead of a bolted on after-the-fact addition.

The bigger problem is handling the edge cases. How reliably can data be pulled from ARROW into this system? Can phone agents access this system easily, or will it require significant effort when they're handling calls to do so? Can travel agents easily add this into their workflow? How reliably can this information be pushed to the vendor to order the meals? What other edge cases are there that may not be accounted for? It's rather easy to design a system that theoretically should work for the most part; it's significantly more difficult to implement that in an environment that needs to be reliable, user-friendly, and has data sources/accessibility that's extremely old and limited.


----------



## PVD

An interesting spin on that question is to look at how the data is gathered and sent to the vendors for the food right now.What will really be needed to implement this. It may not be that involved. As pointed out, how this influences workflow may be a bigger problem than developing the means to do it. We have banged around the issue of advance seat selection for years, with lots of speculation on whether Arrow would be up to the task, and yet, here we are.


----------



## tommylicious

I think Lou Mitchell's (1 block from CUS) also sells baked goods, plus u can have a great meal there to boot.



amtrakpass said:


> "Any suggestions for a good bakery in Chicago?" You could probably find something in the french market on the lower level of the Ogilvie Train Station. https://frenchmarketchicago.com/vendors/
> 
> Otherwise there is an Austrian place in Lincoln Park called Vienna Cafe you might think about.
> http://www.cafeviennachicago.com/about.html


----------



## tommylicious

Cafe Vienna makes outstanding appletreudel. As good or better than those in its namesake city, but it's way up in Lincoln Park so not a practical option.



amtrakpass said:


> "Any suggestions for a good bakery in Chicago?" You could probably find something in the french market on the lower level of the Ogilvie Train Station. https://frenchmarketchicago.com/vendors/
> 
> Otherwise there is an Austrian place in Lincoln Park called Vienna Cafe you might think about.
> http://www.cafeviennachicago.com/about.html


----------



## Manny T

Any Mariano's in Chicago has a bakery department that will fill all your potential Amtrak needs.

It's our local super-supermarket chain and there's one not too far from CUS.

If this link works, it will show you the 1/2 mile walk from CUS to Mariano's at 40 S. Halsted St.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Chicago+Union+Station,+South+Canal+Street,+Chicago,+IL/Mariano's,+40+S+Halsted+St,+Chicago,+IL+60661/@41.8793116,-87.6457581,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2cc08d9bb1f1:0xbab36c41f37621ed!2m2!1d-87.6399599!2d41.87864!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2cc4aea99e7f:0xa091a815340a92d5!2m2!1d-87.6475096!2d41.8807012!3e2


----------



## Skyline

I would definitely try the Beef Short Ribs next opportunity, and will follow this thread to learn what others think about it and the rest of the July menu -- which seems a little better than the June menu. At least the concept of hot food has been reintroduced. Let's see how it is implemented.

I still think lowering the price of sleepers and letting sleeper pax pay for their meals would be a better way to go, however. They could use the same cafe car menu and service (also improved recently) as coach pax, or a somewhat higher end and higher priced sleeper option in the traditional diner that might include ordering at a counter but food brought to your table by a staffer (less spilled food by untrained pax) .

If they begin a pre-ordering flow, I hope it is well tested or we may wind up with something akin to the initial rollout of the ACA website. But like that fiasco, it was eventually fixed and worked well. Maybe Amtrak's pre-ordering of food will not be rolled out until it's ready for prime time, or at least follow a similar track once the gremlins are exorcised.


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## CHvision

The Capitol Limited have more items from the cafe side. Both sleepers and coach passengers have chicken ceasear salad. Difference are sandwiches in the coach section.


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## dogbert617

Manny T said:


> Any Mariano's in Chicago has a bakery department that will fill all your potential Amtrak needs.
> 
> It's our local super-supermarket chain and there's one not too far from CUS.
> 
> If this link works, it will show you the 1/2 mile walk from CUS to Mariano's at 40 S. Halsted St.
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Chicago+Union+Station,+South+Canal+Street,+Chicago,+IL/Mariano's,+40+S+Halsted+St,+Chicago,+IL+60661/@41.8793116,-87.6457581,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2cc08d9bb1f1:0xbab36c41f37621ed!2m2!1d-87.6399599!2d41.87864!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2cc4aea99e7f:0xa091a815340a92d5!2m2!1d-87.6475096!2d41.8807012!3e2


I agree with this suggestion. From Chicago Union Station, this'll be the easiest and shortest walk/cab/Uber/etc. trip away from CUS to a place(Halsted/Greektown Mariano's) with a bakery.


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## JoeBas

AmtrakBlue said:


> Being someone who writes applications, it's not just "add where you can check off the options". There's a whole lot more going on behind the scenes. And take it from me, the "that looks simple enough to do" usually turn out to be not so simple.
> 
> (I have a few grey hairs and bold spots to prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> )


Sounds like my First Law of IT: Anything that sounds simple is incredibly complex, requiring an investment of (insert your organization's default *go away *number) man-hours of development time, with a delivery date sometime after the next Mass Extinction.


----------



## iplaybass

On board #30 now. First disappointment: The short rib will probably be gone by the time I eat. No in-room service (to be fair, I didn't ask.) However, my SCA basically said quantities are limited and divvied up across all sleepers (2+the baggage dorm) Good chance for chicken salad, if there's more than one vegetarian on board, they're SOL.

But they have LOTS of antipasto "salad".

Happy I didn't rely on the short rib. Oh, and I went to Alliance Patisserie on State Street. Very fresh, and sealed in a Ziploc as soon as I got back to the Metropolitan Lounge. Betting it will be fresher than the underwhelming breakfast selection.

Sorry for the blur, but it's kinda bumpy in room 7.


----------



## iplaybass

Update: got the short rib. Better than beef on most domestic first class flights, although the polenta could use more moisture from. Dining car was packed, so steward bagged up my meal and I'm eating in my room. Veggies are green and wax beans with round baby carrots. There is also a small salad with mixed greens, carrots and a few cherry tomatoes. They include Newman's balsamic vinaigrette, but the steward had a few loose packets of ranch for those who asked. I don't eat cheesecake, so no review. I'm having the salad for dessert.

I'm pleasantly surprised, but this review wouldn't be so positive if I were stuck with the antipasto salad.

I'm also including a picture of the free drink for those who were wondering how that works. I'll try to get a better photo of the food on Sunday's return trip. If you're wondering about the drink, as someone who loves rum and ginger beer... the rum barely makes an impression, as you might expect from a canned mixed drink.


----------



## tommylicious

Thank you for the review and photos.


----------



## Palmland

Good to see the new menu has some redeeming features. My wife will like the ginger and beer, aka a Dark and Stormy, if made with Gosling’s Black rum and ginger beer from Bermuda.


----------



## Maverickstation

As part of this discussion it had been brought up that ACELA First Class provides meal service with pre made entrees reheated on board.

Here is an example of a breakfast entree.


----------



## Dakota 400

Maverickstation said:


> Amtrak Meal.jpg
> 
> As part of this discussion it had been brought up that ACELA First Class provides meal service with pre made entrees reheated on board.
> 
> Here is an example of a breakfast entree.


Looks good. Was it?


----------



## Maverickstation

Dakota 400 said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Meal.jpg
> 
> As part of this discussion it had been brought up that ACELA First Class provides meal service with pre made entrees reheated on board.
> 
> Here is an example of a breakfast entree.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good. Was it?
Click to expand...

. Omelette with Boursin Cheese and Broccoli, mushrooms and potatoes.


----------



## cpotisch

Maverickstation said:


> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Meal.jpg
> 
> As part of this discussion it had been brought up that ACELA First Class provides meal service with pre made entrees reheated on board.
> 
> Here is an example of a breakfast entree.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good. Was it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Omelette with Boursin Cheese and Broccoli, mushrooms and potatoes.
Click to expand...

I think he was asking if it was good, rather than what it actually was.


----------



## Maverickstation

cpotisch said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Meal.jpg
> 
> As part of this discussion it had been brought up that ACELA First Class provides meal service with pre made entrees reheated on board.
> 
> Here is an example of a breakfast entree.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good. Was it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Omelette with Boursin Cheese and Broccoli, mushrooms and potatoes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he was asking if it was good, rather than what it actually was.
Click to expand...

. Yes it was good, VIA rails meal service on its corridor business class is superior, but this was good.


----------



## JRR

My experience exactly.


----------



## iplaybass

Palmland said:


> Good to see the new menu has some redeeming features. My wife will like the ginger and beer, aka a Dark and Stormy, if made with Gosling’s Black rum and ginger beer from Bermuda.


No such luck. My wife and I are quite familiar with that particular combination, and this wasn't close.


----------



## iplaybass

I spoke with the steward at breakfast and declined the breakfast box. She said they were working on a hot choice for breakfast, maybe quiche or egg bites (makes me think of Starbucks' sous vide ones.) She also said to keep writing in. We ran about two hours late into DC, so they kept "breakfast" open an hour longer.

On a related note, #30 had a Diner-Lounge instead of a Superliner Diner.


----------



## snvboy

My gut tells me that Mr. Anderson, with an airline frame of mind, came in and looked at the diners and exclaimed "Are you ****** kidding me? Three plus people to turn out this slop!?!?"

Everything about this experiment leads me to believe this to be true, and that dining for sleeping car passengers will quickly fall into line with what is served to Acela first class passengers. Essentially some variation of what you will get on a mainline first-class airline ticket. And I'm really, really OK with that.

The dining car has been so hit-or-miss for so many years. And when it's good, it's just OK. When it's bad, it's embarasingly bad. And there is no consistency to it at all: the food, the service, all of it.

Is it any wonder that Anderson would flip the lid on this? After all, an airline flying thousands of flights per day pulls off decent service and half-decent meals and doesn't need a "Food Service Speciality" to do it. The FAs pop the hots in the oven, plate it up with the colds, pour the booze and everybody is happy.

Ye who yearn for a "chef" in the diner are 30+ years too late. Don't kid yourself, virtually nothing in the diner is "prepared" by the chef. I chuckle every time somebody bemoans the loss of the "railroad" french toast, and remember the time that mine came still frozen in the middle.

I welcome the change, and hope that it continues to be successful.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

snvboy said:


> Ye who yearn for a "chef" in the diner are 30+ years too late. Don't kid yourself, virtually nothing in the diner is "prepared" by the chef. I chuckle every time somebody bemoans the loss of the "railroad" french toast, and remember the time that mine came still frozen in the middle. I welcome the change, and hope that it continues to be successful.


I've had good luck with the French toast. Same with the sous-vide style chef inspired meals. Never had any that were frozen in the middle. These new box meals don't look like they're worth rail fares that cost substantially more than first class airfare. A single hot option in a tiny menu does not impress. I don't mind buying food along the way when I'm traveling in coach but when I'm paying for top dollar Amtrak sleeper fares having to buy or bring my own hot meals seems silly to me. If Anderson had split the savings 50/50 with customers I wouldn't be so disappointed but at this point nearly all of my recent Amtrak purchases have come from pending or potential losses and reroutes (PPC, SWC, CZ, etc) rather than any sort of enhanced service or improved value proposition. It's just sad that our only choices under Boardman and Anderson have been extremely inconsistent service or highly abbreviated meals. Losing the PPC was disappointing but hearing Anderson's threats to cut the SWC off at the knees and reroute the CZ over PTC is really discouraging.


----------



## cocojacoby

I've taken Amtrak for years between Boston and Florida and the famous "Railroad French Toast" disappeared years ago on the Silver Trains at least. Did have some very good crab cakes however. And the burgers were always pretty good.

Crew attitude was "contemporary and cold" often however.


----------



## Manny T

Board Amtrak CL at WUS 405 pm. On time departure. Head to dining car at 6:30. Seated by myself for a while, then another passenger arrives. Orders taken. Enjoy red wine and tossed salad. Choice of dressings. Dinner roll and butter available. On to perfectly cooked Amtrak steak. Sides are mashed potatoes and haricot verts (thin French green beans). Conversation and watch the passing scenery. For dessert order the pecan tart (from a variety of choices). Cup of tea. Linger for a while and then walk back to sleeper.

30 years too late? No, just earlier this year. January 8, 2018 to be exact. And it was far better than "just OK."

Kudos to those on board service personnel who did it right. I really appreciate their service.

Not sustainable? Maybe, maybe not. So many variables involved, it's really hard to say.

But to think getting handed a box with anything in it is in any way comparable is laughable.


----------



## cpotisch

iplaybass said:


> On a related note, #30 had a Diner-Lounge instead of a Superliner Diner.


I'm pretty sure the diner-lounge has been the standard type used on the Capitol for many years now.


----------



## PVD

Not sure if it is all the time, but I had one on the last CL I was on. Doesn't make much difference, the train still had a SSL car with the cafe was downstairs.


----------



## neroden

The beef tenderloin salad was the only non-sugared meal. Apparently it was available for breakfasts before. But now, with no egg option for breakfast, there's nothing for the diabetic or low-carb eater. Unbelievably sloppy.

CORRECTION: the antipasto plate seems to be OK, if you throw out half of it. I guess it's that, over and over again. :-(


----------



## neroden

Maverickstation said:


> Amtrak Meal.jpg
> 
> As part of this discussion it had been brought up that ACELA First Class provides meal service with pre made entrees reheated on board.
> 
> Here is an example of a breakfast entree.


Bluntly this would be fine for the sleeping cars. Is there some reason Amtrak can't copy this? Hostility to passengers? Incompetence?


----------



## neroden

snvboy said:


> My gut tells me that Mr. Anderson, with an airline frame of mind, came in and looked at the diners and exclaimed "Are you ****** kidding me? Three plus people to turn out this slop!?!?"
> 
> Everything about this experiment leads me to believe this to be true, and that dining for sleeping car passengers will quickly fall into line with what is served to Acela first class passengers.


I would love to believe that, but they could have done that so much more easily by *actually copying the Acela First Class menu* that I have to ask why they didn't.


----------



## neroden

bretton88 said:


> It's not crumbs when you're under a federal mandate to eliminate food and beverage losses.


Amtrak is also under a federal mandate to report *avoidable* costs for the long-distance trains. They have ignored this mandate for 10 years and Anderson continues to ignore it. Maybe they should actually get their accounting right before making business decisions...


----------



## Maverickstation

Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.

If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf


----------



## Steve4031

Acela menus are a bit better. I don’t get the fascination with mixing so much in with eggs. Not everyone likes every ingredient. Just keep it simple.


----------



## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> Acela menus are a bit better. I don’t get the fascination with mixing so much in with eggs. Not everyone likes every ingredient. Just keep it simple.


So true. Nothing worse than a meal where you can't easily ignore or remove ingredients because of dietary or taste reasons unless of course you can request a customized version. For those of us that are vegetarians once-removed, as well as for regular vegetarians and anyone else with dietary issues or specific taste buds, it makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Dakota 400

Maverickstation said:


> Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.
> 
> If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf


These menus sound very decent. I noted with interest that Crown Royal Canadian Whisky is availed on Acela. Being a Canadian Whisky drinker, it irks me that Canadian Whisky is not available on the LD trains. Anyone have an idea as to why?


----------



## dlagrua

I believe that I had the answer a few posts back. If you must, use the Cardinal menu for the LSL and CL. One man does it all and the food while not up to par with full dining car service is far better than the boxed, high salt, high sugar, high additives crap that they are now serving to their best customers. That's cancer food..


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Just like the Parlour Car, one attendant served 24 sit down lunches and dinners. One hot entree and one cold choice. The food was pre prepared minus some veges the attendant would dice in his down time in the afternoon. This was service on china with linen tablecloths. The attendant was also a bartender the entire time as well. He had no help from the adjoining dining car at all except they did his reservations. Supposedly Anderson road on the Parlour car and immediately ordered them parked. Ive said it before the Coast Starlight was the experimental train and Anderson killed the experiments as one of his first orders of business.

Since the dining car is headed to a sleeper only service the way the Parlour did it for its sleeping car passengers if efficient as it is/was. Its something customers could live and be happy with.

Im still interested on what Anderson wants on his experimental/experience train he talks about. My guess its all hot air hes just an ideologue that doesnt want the LD trains at all.


----------



## cpotisch

dlagrua said:


> That's cancer food..


I get that you’re not a fan of “contemporary dining,” but calling it “cancer food” sounds a bit extreme. You’re not going to get cancer because a meal is sugary or salty. It just doesn’t work like that.


----------



## PVD

More likely carcinogens in foods are usually preservatives, food coloring, and nitrites in cured food. Too much sodium, fat, and sugar is certainly not healthy, but raising the cancer risk probably is not the top reason. A steak, (red meat in general) particularly if cooked well is considered a cancer risk, but most of us would be happy to see one again. I'm not so sure that most packaged/prepared meals make a good showing, they are generally weak on fiber, too heavy on fats, sugars and sodium. The nutrition information for the reheats was not any better. But is that radically different from what most establishments serve, and perhaps sadly, what the majority of people actually want to buy?


----------



## OBS

Dakota 400 said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.
> 
> If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> These menus sound very decent. I noted with interest that Crown Royal Canadian Whisky is availed on Acela. Being a Canadian Whisky drinker, it irks me that Canadian Whisky is not available on the LD trains. Anyone have an idea as to why?
Click to expand...

Low sales.


----------



## Dakota 400

OBS said:


> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.
> 
> If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> These menus sound very decent. I noted with interest that Crown Royal Canadian Whisky is availed on Acela. Being a Canadian Whisky drinker, it irks me that Canadian Whisky is not available on the LD trains. Anyone have an idea as to why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Low sales.
Click to expand...


So the sales of Crown Royal on Acela is better? I'd like to see the data on that.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> More likely carcinogens in foods are usually preservatives, food coloring, and nitrites in cured food. Too much sodium, fat, and sugar is certainly not healthy, but raising the cancer risk probably is not the top reason. A steak, (red meat in general) particularly if cooked well is considered a cancer risk, but most of us would be happy to see one again. I'm not so sure that most packaged/prepared meals make a good showing, they are generally weak on fiber, too heavy on fats, sugars and sodium. The nutrition information for the reheats was not any better. But is that radically different from what most establishments serve, and perhaps sadly, what the majority of people actually want to buy?


Exactly. Just because something is unhealthy doesn't necessarily mean it'll put you at any risk of getting cancer. Feel free to claim that the meals are unhealthy or are bad for those with dietary restrictions, but making up stuff about cancer really won't help your argument.


----------



## OBS

Dakota 400 said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.
> 
> If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> These menus sound very decent. I noted with interest that Crown Royal Canadian Whisky is availed on Acela. Being a Canadian Whisky drinker, it irks me that Canadian Whisky is not available on the LD trains. Anyone have an idea as to why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Low sales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the sales of Crown Royal on Acela is better? I'd like to see the data on that.
Click to expand...

No the sales aren't that much better, but trying to provide an upscale image and a larger selection of liquor than any other train.


----------



## seat38a

Dakota 400 said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.
> 
> If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> These menus sound very decent. I noted with interest that Crown Royal Canadian Whisky is availed on Acela. Being a Canadian Whisky drinker, it irks me that Canadian Whisky is not available on the LD trains. Anyone have an idea as to why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Low sales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the sales of Crown Royal on Acela is better? I'd like to see the data on that.
Click to expand...

On LD's you have to pay for your booze and on Acela first you don't. Probably not enough people are paying for it on the LD's.


----------



## Palmetto

Could you explain your last statement please? It seems contradictory.

I also thought that there was a free drink--which might be liquor--in the new set-up, no?


----------



## PVD

The LD comp drink is only on the CL and LSL. Whiskey went away well before that change regardless. Crown Royal is the best selling CW in the US so that is not a bad choice. The Acela and LD travlers are probably pretty different in what they would buy, but variations of Martinis and Tequila drinks have become very popular and they are not available in either situation.


----------



## ainamkartma

OBS said:


> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.
> 
> If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> These menus sound very decent. I noted with interest that Crown Royal Canadian Whisky is availed on Acela. Being a Canadian Whisky drinker, it irks me that Canadian Whisky is not available on the LD trains. Anyone have an idea as to why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Low sales.
Click to expand...

OK, I'm confused... how does one compare sales of Crown Royal between LD trains, on which it is not offered for sale, and Acela first class, on which it is offered for free? Seems like sales would be zero by definition in both cases...

Ainamkartma


----------



## PVD

Of course you can't. I just looked at it as "not enough people wanted it to make it worthwhile" But the Acela F/C spirit offerings are different in general. They believe it is a different clientele. Is that 100% true, of course not, but it certainly is to a great extent.

I feel like we are straying from the topic of the thread and moving to an interesting and worthwhile but separate discussion. I'm going to drop off of this, and will gladly rejoin the discussion if perhaps it morphs into a standalone item.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

In a similar vein I wonder which group is particular enough to prefer a Scotch whiskey and yet not particular enough to care that it's Dewar's White. Contradictions like this indicate that the menu is probably based on supply side economics rather than actual consumer preferences.


----------



## nti1094

I guess the food changes on the CL and LSL have not been popular... Already making changes!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/790961002


----------



## tim49424

Being discussed here: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/73212-july-changes-to-lake-shore-and-capitol-limited-dining/


----------



## cpotisch

This was brought up in another thread about this topic

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/07/17/amtrak-improves-food-menus/790961002/

From the article:



> Bob Dorsch, vice president of the Amtrak Long Distance Service Line, said in a written statement. “This contemporary style of service has been well received by customers, with meals of their choice and at times they choose.”


Why can't they just shut up about the "contemporary," and stop lying about how much passengers love it? These press releases and claims are getting tedious.


----------



## bms

A press release is always 100% positive spin, but the writer could have done more than rewrite a press release.


----------



## cpotisch

bms said:


> A press release is always 100% positive spin, but the writer could have done more than rewrite a press release.


There's spinning something positively, and then there's just blatantly saying that everyone loves that thing. They weren't even trying to spin it. They just made up some nonsense about passengers loving the changes.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> This was brought up in another thread about this topic
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2018/07/17/amtrak-improves-food-menus/790961002/
> 
> From the article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dorsch, vice president of the Amtrak Long Distance Service Line, said in a written statement. “This contemporary style of service has been well received by customers, with meals of their choice and at times they choose.”
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't they just shut up about the "contemporary," and *stop lying about how much passengers love it*? These press releases and claims are getting tedious.
Click to expand...

What is your basis that they are lying? Oh, social media. Well, I doubt that's a good source because you know that people who don't have complaints are less likely to post online how they feel about something.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> bms said:
> 
> 
> 
> A press release is always 100% positive spin, but the writer could have done more than rewrite a press release.
> 
> 
> 
> There's spinning something positively, and then there's just blatantly saying that everyone loves that thing. They weren't even trying to spin it. They just made up some nonsense about passengers loving the changes.
Click to expand...

"has been well received by customers," does NOT say "everyone loves it". You're the one spinning things.


----------



## Ryan

Indeed. I don’t see the word “love” anywhere in Amtrak’s statements.


----------



## ehbowen

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bms said:
> 
> 
> 
> A press release is always 100% positive spin, but the writer could have done more than rewrite a press release.
> 
> 
> 
> There's spinning something positively, and then there's just blatantly saying that everyone loves that thing. They weren't even trying to spin it. They just made up some nonsense about passengers loving the changes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "has been well received by customers," does NOT say "everyone loves it". You're the one spinning things.
Click to expand...

It could just mean that, so far, nobody has taken the dinner box and thrown it back in the crew member's face with an angry tirade which begins, "What the hell is this crap?!" Or at least not more than a half-dozen or so....

Edit To Add: If 10% of their customers did so, I believe Amtrak would spin it as, "90% customer satisfaction...!"


----------



## tommylicious

bms said:


> A press release is always 100% positive spin, but the writer could have done more than rewrite a press release.


PR departments, agencies are the lowest of the low.


----------



## Yumacool

If this kind of meal service comes to the western long distance trains where sleeper passengers pay astronomical ticket prices and will be forced to endure five or six of these abominations, my Amtrak travel will decline precipitously. This is really a sad situation.


----------



## Bob Dylan

tommylicious said:


> bms said:
> 
> 
> 
> A press release is always 100% positive spin, but the writer could have done more than rewrite a press release.
> 
> 
> 
> PR departments, agencies are the lowest of the low.
Click to expand...

Along with Advertising Agencies, some so called "Churches" and Political "Spokespersons".


----------



## Ryan

Bob Dylan said:


> Churches


You should educate yourself to some of the churches out there, you might find that not every church is a part of the evil right wing empire that you can’t help but rage against at every opportunity.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Churches
> 
> 
> 
> You should educate yourself to some of the churches out there, you might find that not every church is a part of the evil right wing empire that you cant help but rage against at every opportunity.
Click to expand...

Apologies Ryan and all other Religious folks, I was really talking about the so Called "Churches" such as Scientology and other Cults, not Mainstream Religions.
But to each their own, its All Unknown.

We're still Free to believe what we want in this Country, no matter how Kooky or Crazy! See "Trumpism!"


----------



## bretton88

Are we so sure a majority customers hate this? There's been a vocal segment of customers that dislike it, sure. I have a friend who took the LSL a month ago, and he said the salad was fantastic. He's not alone in that sentiment. Now as far as this article, USA Today is a respectable newspaper and not a government mouthpiece, they should know better than to just reprint a press release. Where's interviews with some of the customers, or even a mention of what it's replacing? I expect better from them.


----------



## me_little_me

Dakota 400 said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dakota 400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the ACELA First Class menus, there are (3) that are rotated.
> 
> If this was used as the basis for LD dining service, it should be cost effective enough to pass the mandate imposed on Amtrak for it's F & B service.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0418.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> These menus sound very decent. I noted with interest that Crown Royal Canadian Whisky is availed on Acela. Being a Canadian Whisky drinker, it irks me that Canadian Whisky is not available on the LD trains. Anyone have an idea as to why?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Low sales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the sales of Crown Royal on Acela is better? I'd like to see the data on that.
Click to expand...

CongressCreatures like their liquor and can afford FC Acela so they don't have to sit with the peasants they represent.


----------



## TiBike

As Scotch whisky goes, Dewars White is OK. Middle of the road call whisky. It's not distinctive enough to turn anyone off (e.g. some people love Johnny Walker Black, some hate it) but it's high enough quality that it's recognisably Scotch whisky. You don't have to be particularly particular to prefer a Scotch whisky over others. If you're really particular, you're going to want to bring your own anyway.

There's probably some supply side considerations – maybe their supplier has it at a good price – but it also falls into the "drinkable but inoffensive" category.

No contradiction.



Devil's Advocate said:


> In a similar vein I wonder which group is particular enough to prefer a Scotch whiskey and yet not particular enough to care that it's Dewar's White. Contradictions like this indicate that the menu is probably based on supply side economics rather than actual consumer preferences.


----------



## keelhauled

bretton88 said:


> Now as far as this article, USA Today is a respectable newspaper and not a government mouthpiece, they should know better than to just reprint a press release.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TiBike said:


> As Scotch whisky goes, Dewars White is OK. Middle of the road call whisky. It's not distinctive enough to turn anyone off (e.g. some people love Johnny Walker Black, some hate it) but it's high enough quality that it's recognisably Scotch whisky. You don't have to be particularly particular to prefer a Scotch whisky over others. If you're really particular, you're going to want to bring your own anyway. There's probably some supply side considerations – maybe their supplier has it at a good price – but it also falls into the "drinkable but inoffensive" category. No contradiction.


Love it or hate it at least Johnnie Walker Black is a legitimate middle road Scotch that can be consumed neat or on the rocks. Dewar's White sits on the bottom rung of the name brand blends next to JW Red. It's fine as a cocktail base but what is the point of ordering a Scotch you cannot sip straight from a server who cannot make a proper whiskey based cocktail? Dewar's White is the Jim Beam of Scotch. It serves no purpose other than coming from a specific location at a very low cost, which probably explains why so many carriers use it as a generic bullet point filler.


----------



## TiBike

I happen to love Black Label -- it's reliable and universally available, usually within a 5 minute walk of any train station -- but I have friends who differ. Which has led to many pleasant hours of comparative, deconstructive analysis – can't properly debate blends without single malt references. I'm not extolling the virtues of White Label, just saying it's a safe, inoffensive choice, not another sneak attack on long distance trains.


----------



## railiner

The more you drink, the less you will care about the difference between the "good stuff" and "the rest"...


----------



## JRR

I’m a single malt person myself. That being said, there is a large number of them and each has its following.


----------



## ehbowen

I'm not a drinker. That said, In My Opinion when you're serving a captive audience at "stadium" prices it behooves you to stock and to serve the very highest quality items available (considering the limited "single serve" packaging and other factors, of course). The increase in your marginal cost is insignificant relative to what you're charging; your regular customers are less likely to feel that they're getting ripped off; and your "occasional" customers are more likely to splurge and give your selections a try.

Edit To Add: Good number...goes with the avatar!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TiBike said:


> I happen to love Black Label -- it's reliable and universally available, usually within a 5 minute walk of any train station -- but I have friends who differ. Which has led to many pleasant hours of comparative, deconstructive analysis – can't properly debate blends without single malt references. I'm not extolling the virtues of White Label, just saying it's a safe, inoffensive choice, not another sneak attack on long distance trains.


This isn't limited to Amtrak or long distance trains specifically. Back when I first started drinking Johnnie Walker Black was one of the most common options for planes, trains, and hotel minibars. It didn't have any single malt cachet or small batch snob appeal but it was perfectly serviceable in terms of commercial scale taste and pedigree. It also did a decent job of introducing new drinkers to the flavor of a legitimate midlevel blend. Meanwhile Dewar's White has a quality and cost similar to Bacardi Superior, which is a rum so cheap and rough that it's often sold in clear plastic bottles like some no-name well brand. I'm not sure if you've ever tried drinking it straight but it's not advisable. Rum is generally mixed into something else so the expectation of quality is lower, but any Scotch worth serving on a premium ticket should be smooth enough to be consumed straight up. What is the point of serving a Scotch so low in quality that it can rival the street price of domestic rum from a plastic jug? Dewar's White isn't a spirit worth savoring so much as a spirited lesson in supply side subterfuge.



railiner said:


> The more you drink, the less you will care about the difference between the "good stuff" and "the rest"...


I don't mind slumming it as a choice. I just find it a little insulting when the bottom shelf brand is the only option available, especially when I'm traveling in a premium cabin or staying at a nicer hotel.


----------



## Skyline

OK. If y'all aren't even going to consider *Monkey Shoulder *as a top-tier scotch, there's no hope here. LOL

https://www.qualityliquorstore.com/monkey-shoulder-scotch-whisky/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI56Pz2Y2p3AIV0AcqCh2KoQY8EAQYASABEgLgmfD_BwE

It's pretty damned good!


----------



## chrsjrcj

Here is another news article: https://www.wusa9.com/mobile/article/news/nation-now/amtrak-ups-its-food-game-for-long-haul-riders/465-48622bcf-6cfc-4c0c-8052-67c23ab9f2c6

Amazing that Amtrak has the media convinced that this is an upgrade!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Sounds like a piece of PR stuff, carefully crafted by Amtrak's marketing department, to make Amtrak sound like a purveyor of cutting-edge meals (rather than a picnic in a box), then even more carefully plopped into the lap of a national general-interest daily paper that was happy to get something they didn't have to bother writing from scratch.

If Amtrak truly believes what this article says, they are even more out of touch with many of their riders than some of us thought.


----------



## cpotisch

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Sounds like a piece of PR stuff, carefully crafted by Amtrak's marketing department, to make Amtrak sound like a purveyor of cutting-edge meals (rather than a picnic in a box), then even more carefully plopped into the lap of a national general-interest daily paper that was happy to get something they didn't have to bother writing from scratch.
> 
> If Amtrak truly believes what this article says, they are even more out of touch with many of their riders than some of us thought.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: mainstream news outlets almost never bother trying to get their facts straight when talking about Amtrak. A while ago, there was some article about the Ethan Allen possibly being extended to I think Montreal, and the "artist's rendering" of an Ethan Allen in Montreal showed it as an entirely Superliner train. If you literally look up "Ethan Allen Express," the first image you see is of the train, and it very obviously looks nothing even remotely like a Superliner. So I guess they couldn't go to the trouble of doing one search to find out what it looked like.
And when I was on #98 in January and it derailed, one of the articles talking about it was explaining that the Silver Meteor "was making its way from Miami to Boston" Another very easy thing to check. Or when there was a CNN article about the Viewliner Diner deliveries, and how "A completely new train made by CAF in New York will be operating on Amtrak's Northeast Regional between Washington D.C and Boston, replacing all the aging equipment on that route."

And in that article, they are claiming that literally everything is an upgrade. "Amtrak is continuing to improve its dining car menus," "Starting this week, customers will get a hot option in addition to cold meals." Are you going to note that up until a month and a half ago, almost every option was hot?

I really try to avoid reading these kinds of articles, because they're written by people who don't know anything about trains or service, and don't want to bother finding out.


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> The more you drink, the less you will care about the difference between the "good stuff" and "the rest"...


LOL! May I add what I hope others will see as a bit of humor as a follow-up to this post?

During an Alaskan cruise, a whale was spotted near the ship during Happy Hour. Everyone rushed to the windows with the hope of seeing the whale. Most of us were disappointed. Then, a Lounge Steward said in a very loud voice,"The more you drink, the more whales you'll see!"


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

chrsjrcj said:


> Here is another news article: https://www.wusa9.com/mobile/article/news/nation-now/amtrak-ups-its-food-game-for-long-haul-riders/465-48622bcf-6cfc-4c0c-8052-67c23ab9f2c6
> 
> Amazing that Amtrak has the media convinced that this is an upgrade!


The meal looks exactly like something already being served in the Diner; but at least it is a step in the right direction. Now just get a HOT breakfast in the mix.

Now, I sure would like to know the reason behind a balsa wood box vs. a cardboard box. I would think that would be quite a bit more costly....


----------



## Manny T

Yes, I've had that "braised beef" in the Diner occasionally when I saw it on the menu. I assumed it was an Aramark creation then, and I assume the version in the box will be from Aramark too.

In the Diner the braised beef was overcooked, juiceless, hard as a rock and gray inside.

I assume it will be the same when served in a box and reheated. (It can't be worse.)


----------



## Skyline

Manny T said:


> Yes, I've had that "braised beef" in the Diner occasionally when I saw it on the menu. I assumed it was an Aramark creation then, and I assume the version in the box will be from Aramark too.
> 
> In the Diner the braised beef was overcooked, juiceless, hard as a rock and gray inside.
> 
> I assume it will be the same when served in a box and reheated. (It can't be worse.)


AraMark is evidence of how America has continued to dumb down -- at stadiums, colleges, transportation, cafeterias. They love to have exclusivity at venues so there is no competition to keep them in line. The public suffers.

At least the National Park Service has finally caught on, not renewing long term AraMark concession contracts in a number of well known Parks. The result has been a New Day as those replacing them (ex: Delaware North in Shenandoah NP) has seriously upgraded facilities, menus, offerings, attitudes. They still have a ways to go in H-R, but as far as the public's interaction in their venues the reaction has been mostly good. Without a proactive NPS, would this have happened?

Perhaps Amtrak should expand its horizons too.


----------



## bretton88

Skyline said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I've had that "braised beef" in the Diner occasionally when I saw it on the menu. I assumed it was an Aramark creation then, and I assume the version in the box will be from Aramark too.
> 
> In the Diner the braised beef was overcooked, juiceless, hard as a rock and gray inside.
> 
> I assume it will be the same when served in a box and reheated. (It can't be worse.)
> 
> 
> 
> AraMark is evidence of how America has continued to dumb down -- at stadiums, colleges, transportation, cafeterias. They love to have exclusivity at venues so there is no competition to keep them in line. The public suffers.
> 
> At least the National Park Service has finally caught on, not renewing long term AraMark concession contracts in a number of well known Parks. The result has been a New Day as those replacing them (ex: Delaware North in Shenandoah NP) has seriously upgraded facilities, menus, offerings, attitudes. They still have a ways to go in H-R, but as far as the public's interaction in their venues the reaction has been mostly good. Without a proactive NPS, would this have happened?
> 
> Perhaps Amtrak should expand its horizons too.
Click to expand...

It has been noted elsewhere (I forget where) Amtrak is taking a look at their contract with Aramark. Now I have no idea how ironclad these contracts are, and if Amtrak can do anything with them, but it's certainly been brought up. I've found Levy can put together a pretty good product too. So hopefully Amtrak is looking at the options. Is Amtrak required to take the low bid? Because that's usually where Aramark is.


----------



## PVD

Just about all of them can provide a good product if you spec it, and enforce the terms of the agreement.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Just about all of them can provide a good product if you spec it, and enforce the terms of the agreement.


In theory anyway, but the indifferent number crunching process that leads to a hands-off solution like Aramark is unlikely to worry that much about the quality of the food afterward. Even at the AT&T Center the Terrace Suites and Courtside Club offer surprisingly poor quality food. Each suite contract can cost upwards of a half million annually so I doubt it's an issue with funding. So far as I can tell Aramark is mainly focused on keeping the budget minding managers and accountants happy rather than the actual consumers of the food. If the SWC wasn't facing the threat of a bus/shoe bridge and the CZ wasn't being threatened with a potential reroute through Wyoming I might be really excited about the thought of Anderson giving Aramark the boot.


----------



## TiBike

It's been a long time since I had Bacardi neat, and I'm sure there's a reason for why 1. I don't exactly remember what it tasted like, and 2. it's been a long time. I agree with everything you say about Black Label. I don't share your opinion of White Label, but it's not something I'd drink given a choice, either. Which is why I often BYOB on Amtrak. I also bring my own food, at least on day trips on the Starlight or Zephyr. The real problem is the quality of everything in the cafe. When the food is Clan MacGregor-class, White Label looks good by comparison.

I'm looking forward to seeing the upgraded cafe offerings on the western trains. If Amtrak could just stock the same beer and wines on the LD trains as they do on the California trains, I'd be a happy camper -- an upgraded liquor cabinet is probably too much to hope for. If I'm in the mood for whisky, I don't mind bringing something I really want.

And yeah, Monkey Shoulder is the bomb







Devil's Advocate said:


> This isn't limited to Amtrak or long distance trains specifically. Back when I first started drinking Johnnie Walker Black was one of the most common options for planes, trains, and hotel minibars. It didn't have any single malt cachet or small batch snob appeal but it was perfectly serviceable in terms of commercial scale taste and pedigree. It also did a decent job of introducing new drinkers to the flavor of a legitimate midlevel blend. Meanwhile Dewar's White has a quality and cost similar to Bacardi Superior, which is a rum so cheap and rough that it's often sold in clear plastic bottles like some no-name well brand. I'm not sure if you've ever tried drinking it straight but it's not advisable. Rum is generally mixed into something else so the expectation of quality is lower, but any Scotch worth serving on a premium ticket should be smooth enough to be consumed straight up. What is the point of serving a Scotch so low in quality that it can rival the street price of domestic rum from a plastic jug? Dewar's White isn't a spirit worth savoring so much as a spirited lesson in supply side subterfuge.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TiBike said:


> It's been a long time since I had Bacardi neat, and I'm sure there's a reason for why I don't exactly remember what it tasted like, and it's been a long time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kVbXvId3A

Nobody drinks Bacardi Superior neat unless it's part of a dare or suicide pact.

Perhaps you're thinking of Limon or Anejo?


----------



## TiBike

No, I'm thinking of college. We were fearless in those days








Devil's Advocate said:


> Nobody drinks Bacardi Superior neat unless it's part of a dare or suicide pact.
> 
> Perhaps you're thinking of Limon or Anejo?


----------



## keelhauled

While the Boars Head branding and menu are still present in the cafe car, yesterday's 449 was stocked with Fresh Direct (I think it was) products, or at least the chicken wrap and breakfast sandwich I ate were. They were both pretty good. I appreciated that the breakfast sandwich was made with a single egg instead of a blended egg patty.

Incidentally, the business class soft product includes one free alcoholic drink, unlimited soft drinks, and an amenity kit with a blanket, neck pillow, eye mask, and earplugs. It seems to be popular, sold out leaving Albany and still mostly full when I left in Toledo.


----------



## Maverickstation

The Food Facts site now has the 411 on the pre made Beef Short Rib, and as expected it is a nutritional disaster.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w612/h405/AMFF-SPRING-2018-CPT-LSL-22.pdf

Ken


----------



## jis

It tastes very nice though [emoji57].

There is very little that is not a nutritional disaster in the Amtrak offerings involving meats even in the Diner anyway.


----------



## Maverickstation

jis said:


> It tastes very nice though [emoji57].
> 
> There is very little that is not a nutritional disaster in the Amtrak offerings involving meats even in the Diner anyway.


Actually no, the Flat Iron steak served on the trains with a full diner winds up looking like health food compared to the Short Rib from dietary hell.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w459/h337/AMFF-FALL-2017-31.pdf


----------



## cpotisch

Holy crap. It’s not even close. The short rib has 91 grams of fat. That’s 140% of your daily recommended intake. Dear god.


----------



## PRR 60

cpotisch said:


> Holy crap. It’s not even close. The short rib has 91 grams of fat. That’s 140% of your daily recommended intake. Dear god.


It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. The traditional meal facts are for the entree only. The new meal data is for the entire dinner: including roll, butter, salad, salad dressing, and dessert.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PRR 60 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Holy crap. It’s not even close. The short rib has 91 grams of fat. That’s 140% of your daily recommended intake. Dear god.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. The traditional meal facts are for the entree only. The new meal data is for the entire dinner: including roll, butter, salad, salad dressing, and dessert.
Click to expand...

Plus everything in moderation. It's ok to eat "bad" foods as long as it not a mainstay in your diet.


----------



## cpotisch

Fair enough. I guess it’s sort of inconsequential for me anyway since I don’t eat meat


----------



## cpotisch

Dakota 400 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> The more you drink, the less you will care about the difference between the "good stuff" and "the rest"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! May I add what I hope others will see as a bit of humor as a follow-up to this post?
> 
> During an Alaskan cruise, a whale was spotted near the ship during Happy Hour. Everyone rushed to the windows with the hope of seeing the whale. Most of us were disappointed. Then, a Lounge Steward said in a very loud voice,"The more you drink, the more whales you'll see!"
Click to expand...

Makes me wonder if there actually was a whale in the first place...


----------



## cpotisch

Devil said:


> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's been a long time since I had Bacardi neat, and I'm sure there's a reason for why I don't exactly remember what it tasted like, and it's been a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kVbXvId3ANobody drinks Bacardi Superior neat unless it's part of a dare or suicide pact.
Click to expand...

And then a few hours later:


----------



## jis

Maverickstation said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> It tastes very nice though [emoji57].
> 
> There is very little that is not a nutritional disaster in the Amtrak offerings involving meats even in the Diner anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually no, the Flat Iron steak served on the trains with a full diner winds up looking like health food compared to the Short Rib from dietary hell.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/restimg2/force/template/1/Amtrak__Food_Facts/w459/h337/AMFF-FALL-2017-31.pdf
Click to expand...

Which is generally true when typical short ribs served in restaurants are compared with grilled steak. Neither are health food but one is considerably worse than the other. 
It would be nice of course if there were more choices in the menu.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> It tastes very nice though [emoji57].
> 
> There is very little that is not a nutritional disaster in the Amtrak offerings involving meats even in the Diner anyway.


Yes, but part of the whole song-and-dance with this mess was that the options would be at least marginally healthier than before.

The steak isn't bad and the salmon is really only bad in terms of cholesterol (which seems to be the bane of these meals in general...anyone got an idea as to why that's such an issue?).


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> It tastes very nice though [emoji57].
> 
> There is very little that is not a nutritional disaster in the Amtrak offerings involving meats even in the Diner anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but part of the whole song-and-dance with this mess was that the options would be at least marginally healthier than before.
> 
> The steak isn't bad and the salmon is really only bad in terms of cholesterol (which seems to be the bane of these meals in general...anyone got an idea as to why that's such an issue?).
Click to expand...

Is it? I though it was mostly about fresher. I think there is no getting past the fact that Americans just do not like healthier food in general, and menu in a train Diner (a mode of transportation which is not exactly popular to start with) is hardly the way to fix that.

I bet the Shot Ribs itself is not much different whether it is served in a box, on a plate or in a restaurant. When freshly prepared there is more control on the details of how much cooked it is etc. but not too much on the nutrition levels as it would appear (unless one goes out of ones way to make it worse). The darn thing is just fattier than lean steak.

I had it, and it was delicious. The salad was fresher than anything I have had in the Diner in a long time. See PRR's note above on why there is more of everything in the listed nutritional data for the boxes than for the stuff on the Diner menu.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> I think there is no getting past the fact that Americans just do not like healthier food in general, and menu in a train Diner (a mode of transportation which is not exactly popular to start with) is hardly the way to fix that.


It's not about "fixing" America's death wish diet. It's about giving those passengers who want to eat healthier a practical option for doing so. Other than the Silver Star every revenue sleeper passenger is already paying for a meal and there should be at least a few hot options that appeal to healthy people as well. Is that really too much to ask? Nobody expects Amtrak to fix a society so ignorant about nutrition that it includes sugar and fat on its food pyramid and considers a heart attack to be a "wakeup call" rather than near death experience caused by a lifetime of willful ignorance.



AmtrakBlue said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Holy crap. It’s not even close. The short rib has 91 grams of fat. That’s 140% of your daily recommended intake. Dear god.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. The traditional meal facts are for the entree only. The new meal data is for the entire dinner: including roll, butter, salad, salad dressing, and dessert.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Plus everything in moderation. It's ok to eat "bad" foods as long as it not a mainstay in your diet.
Click to expand...

The problem is that unhealthy foods remain the "mainstay" of Amtrak dining. Healthy eating on today's Amtrak is a lot like fasting. Which might be fine if Amtrak discounted tickets for passengers who decline the meal plan and if Amtrak stations had some genuine variety. But they don't so in my view it's on Amtrak to provide those options. If they want healthier folks to "book the cook" 24 hours before departure that would be a reasonable compromise in my opinion.


----------



## jis

Hey, I was against including meals in absurdly increased fares when it was introduced in the '90s and have never changed my mind about it. So as far as I am concerned you are singing to the choir here. IMHO Amtrak should discontinue including food in fares and simply revert back to how things were before they introduced this in the '90s. While at it, they could also revert back to offering welcome wine (or non-alcoholic) and cheese upon boarding in Sleeper, and such other minor niceties, and offering reasonable quality food that people would actually want to buy. They could offer and hospitality package for sale which includes all food to those that wish to partake of such.

The current scheme of including food only encourages the likes of me to blow my daily calorie quota unless I am darned careful, and forces me to pay a higher fare for stuff I will never use.


----------



## bretton88

I wouldn't mind a Silver Star approach to all the LD trains. Upgrade the cafe menus and it would work well, while giving the passengers the choice of what they want to do.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Jis,Chris and bretton88 got it right!


----------



## bratkinson

jis said:


> Hey, I was against including meals in absurdly increased fares when it was introduced in the '90s and have never changed my mind about it. So as far as I am concerned you are singing to the choir here. IMHO Amtrak should discontinue including food in fares and simply revert back to how things were before they introduced this in the '90s. While at it, they could also revert back to offering welcome wine (or non-alcoholic) and cheese upon boarding in Sleeper, and such other minor niceties, and offering reasonable quality food that people would actually want to buy. They could offer and hospitality package for sale which includes all food to those that wish to partake of such.
> 
> The current scheme of including food only encourages the likes of me to blow my daily calorie quota unless I am darned careful, and forces me to pay a higher fare for stuff I will never use.


I completely agree. Given that meals were 'included' in the sleeper prices was merely a financial 'trick' to show X amount of dollars as income in the diner to offset the cost of having the diner there in the first place. Put another way, the old way of sleeper passengers pay for their meals be it in the diner or lounge makes sense to me. There have been times I wasn't really hungry for a full meal, so I got a pizza and a Coke in the lounge car, effectively pricing my lounge car meal at $30-35 when the included meal cost is part of what I paid up front.

It would be interesting to see if Amtrak could go back to the 'old way'. For starters, it would force Amtrak to put point-of-sale screens in the diner and the wait staff use touch screens to enter what was ordered, etc...just like they do in most TGI Fridays and other casual restaurants. That would greatly simplify the end-of-the-run inventory taking and cash handling. It would also eliminate what happened to me a couple months ago and others as well. I ordered a steak, but it came as the surf & turf, which I presume the waiter marked on the meal order form I signed. Perhaps they had too many 'surf's and had to get rid of them. I'm not sure what the extra 'surf' expense does to the diner finances nor sleeper finances. I'll let the bean counters figure it out. But, if it was the 'old' way and I'd be presented with a computer printed & itemized list of what was to pay for, if a 'surf' got added in, I'd refuse to pay the price differential.

On the other hand, going to an all cash/debit/credit system will increase the likelihood of increased cash shortages and perhaps compromised credit card numbers. But then, that's no different than the casual dining restaurants do today.

Bottom line, moving the cost of meals back to the diner and out of the sleeper prices will most accurately reflect the economics of running the diner. And if I was a real cheapskate, I'd bring a couple sandwiches along instead of paying $12 for breakfast, etc. Unfortunately, as has been known since the creation of dining cars, they lose money. And as a loser, the Washington bean counters would say 'it has to go'. And that's where we are on the Lake Shore Ltd and Capitol Ltd today.

Unfortunately, as Amtrak learned the hard way 30 years ago when they downgraded the diners to horrible food served on paper plates with cheap plastic eating utensils, patronage on each of the LD trains dropped significantly. Obviously, by ignoring history, Amtrak management and Congress are doomed to repeat it.


----------



## keelhauled

I returned home on 48 today, and experienced the boxed meals for the first time. I would characterize it as one step forwards and one backwards. The breakfast was adequate. The fruit was properly fresh and crisp, the yogurt parfait was, well, nothing to object about, and the blueberry muffin was decent for a mass produced one. Huge, though. I think everyone is familiar with the idea of a granola bar, and I didn't eat it in any case. I was not left wanting more food, although I had had a large dinner the night before.

At apparent risk to life and health, I had the short ribs for lunch, which I thought were quite good. Much better than the reheated beef I had on the Cardinal a year or so ago, which was memorable mostly for being dry. This was much more moist and not (outwardly, anyway) excessively salty. The polenta and beans were equivalent to the diner's typical potatoes and beans, although I suppose there is less chance of getting the flaky instant potatoes that were occasionally found in the diner. The salad was properly crisp and fresh, although the tomatoes were smaller than the ones in the diner garden salad. It would have been nice if the roll had been heated. It is difficult to butter a cold roll with a cold pat of butter. The cheesecake was better than the recent one they had with blended fruit, although I do prefer fresh fruit or fruit sauce. This one was not too sweet, which is a common downfall of mass market cheesecake.

It is ironic that the breakfast is now the weaker meal in my opinion, when I always preferred it to lunch/dinner in the diner. Now it is the other way around. I don't at all understand why it was felt that for some reason it was worth offering choices for lunch and dinner but not for breakfast. Hopefully the rumored hot option appears (and is added, rather than replaces). I gathered that the whole process is still to some extent a work in progress, and among other things Amtrak's traditional inability to properly stock food is still very much the case, as the attendant said that she was out of the vegan wraps when I walked in, not particularly late, for lunch.

I also thought it was amusing that the box says it is a "sustainable option" and touts the salvaged/recycled materials, and then you open it and have individual plastic packaging on everything with single use napkins, etc. There were an awful lot of green boxes in trash bags on the platform in Albany.

If anyone is keeping track, the diner on 48 (22) was Jackson.


----------



## Maverickstation

Here is a story that I thought everyone would be interesting, the article about Amtrak Dining service is from the NY Times,and is titled, Amtrak Menus:

Standars, Simple and Cheap. The story if from 1975, as a bonus it includes the recipe for the famous railroad French Toast.

https://www.nytimes.com/1975/04/27/archives/amtrak-menus-standard-simple-and-cheap.html

Ken


----------



## chrsjrcj

"'Well, it's a kind of loss leader.' Mr. Reistrup replied."

Too bad Congress doesn't get it.


----------



## lordsigma

Has anyone tried the short ribs? And does anyone know how the diner LSA heats it up? (Microwave, convection ,etc.)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Look a few posts up...

"

I had the short ribs for lunch, which I thought were quite good. Much better than the reheated beef I had on the Cardinal a year or so ago, which was memorable mostly for being dry. This was much more moist and not (outwardly, anyway) excessively salty. The polenta and beans were equivalent to the diner's typical potatoes and beans, although I suppose there is less chance of getting the flaky instant potatoes that were occasionally found in the diner. The salad was properly crisp and fresh, although the tomatoes were smaller than the ones in the diner garden salad. It would have been nice if the roll had been heated. It is difficult to butter a cold roll with a cold pat of butter. The cheesecake was better than the recent one they had with blended fruit, although I do prefer fresh fruit or fruit sauce. This one was not too sweet, which is a common downfall of mass market cheesecake."


----------



## lordsigma

Thanks and sorry I somehow skipped over that. Was it micro or convection oven (if you know.)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

That I don't know. Im also not sure if the viewliner diners even have a microwave.


----------



## coolcreek

PRR 60 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Holy crap. It’s not even close. The short rib has 91 grams of fat. That’s 140% of your daily recommended intake. Dear god.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. The traditional meal facts are for the entree only. The new meal data is for the entire dinner: including roll, butter, salad, salad dressing, and dessert.
Click to expand...

And almost 2000 mg of sodium in that one meal only - almost an entire day's worth. I'd love to see a breakfast that includes some protein and isn't all sugar. Fruit, sweetened yogurt (and it's probably an artificial sweetener, not even sugar) and a muffin? I shouldn't have to go to the cafe car to purchase two hard boiled eggs. It was possible to put together nutritionally OK meals from the dining car options, but these prepackaged meals are full of high fat, high sodium, high sugar foods. It's like trying to eat healthy at a ballpark. And the current veg option can't bail me out- I'm allergic to eggplant. My bad luck.


----------



## jis

PRR, you need to post the comparison that you posted on Trainorders showing how little nutritional difference there is between a steak meal served in the Diner and the Short Ribs served in the box when the full meal is added up.

That is not to say that there should not be an egg entry for breakfast.

The fact remains that someone conscious of what s/he is eating does not consume the entire meal in the Diner or the entire content of the box in the Lounge.


----------



## PVD

We are constantly comparing Amtrak offerings to nutritional and dietary guidelines that certainly may be better for us, rather than the offerings of typical eating establishments. Too much fat, salt, sugars, carbs, on and on. Go to a typical fast food or fast casual restaurant, see what is offered, and what people actually buy. There is a fine balance between giving people what they want, and what is good for them. The true challenge is in educating people as to what is better so they prefer those choices, not forcing it. Calorie counts on menu boards, sodium content, all well and good, but stand on line and watch the person in front of you order 2 Quarter Pounders, Large Fries, and a Diet Coke.


----------



## RPC

We just traveled the CL from CHI to WAS. For supper we had the short ribs, antipasto, and chicken Caesar salad and were all satisfied. The cheesecake was especially praised. The kids really miss the French toast for breakfast and I miss the eggs & bacon. A couple of things really struck me: 1) The food at supper is actually pretty good, but the atmosphere has gone to heck. We ate in the "sleeper lounge" and all through the meal the LSA and two SCAs that were assembling the meals were shouting, "Car 3000 Room 3" etc. We talked to the LSA afterwards and all agreed that the same food plated up and served Acela First Class style would be a much more attractive offering. 2) Eating in one's room, especially the breakfast which scatters crumbs all over, is going to present a cleaning/rodent problem. 3) The sheer waste is astounding - multiple bags full of green bags, boxes, and the glass jars from the cheesecake. The LSA said she wasn't even allowed to reuse the green bag we brought from supper for breakfast; she had to give us a new one. Maybe this is no worse than a fast food restaurant, but aboard a train where your trash travels with you (at least for a while) it's really apparent.


----------



## jis

On CL when we picked up food in the Lounge to eat in the Lounge we did not get any Green Bag so there was no bag to throw away. Food items that were not unsealed were picked up for distribution somewhere else, where I am not sure. Several passengers offered items that they were not eating to anyone else in Sleeper or Coach that wanted them. In principle, it should be easier to reclaim items that are not unselaed for distribution to soup kitchens or such. Of course in a country where wastage is celebrated, such may not happen easily.


----------



## PVD

I have traveled on 2 trips under the new system. On one, everything was bagged, on the other, you were asked if you wanted the bag or a tray.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> On CL when we picked up food in the Lounge to eat in the Lounge we did not get any Green Bag so there was no bag to throw away. Food items that were not unsealed were picked up for distribution somewhere else, where I am not sure. Several passengers offered items that they were not eating to anyone else in Sleeper or Coach that wanted them. In principle, it should be easier to reclaim items that are not unselaed for distribution to soup kitchens or such. Of course in a country where wastage is celebrated, such may not happen easily.


Not really celebrated, but unintentionally regulated. Dept of Health regulations essentially have made it close to impossible to send excess food to other places. As an example, I worked at a Taco Bell/KFC (poor college kid days) who used to regularly donate the leftover food at night to a food kitchen nearby. However about a decade ago, the feds/state cracked down on it, saying the food had to be kept at proper temperature at all times during transportation. This immediately killed the donation, and the food pantry was only a few blocks away, so not like the food was arriving cold. Amtrak would fall under these regulations, so they might be limited in what they can do with the leftovers. Since it is prepackaged, they probably have more leeway in that, as long as it is sealed.


----------



## jis

The concern for people's health is so high that they'd rather have them die of malnutrition than of very occasional, relatively uncommon occurrence tainted food. Oh well.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> PRR, you need to post the comparison that you posted on Trainorders showing how little nutritional difference there is between a steak meal served in the Diner and the Short Ribs served in the box when the full meal is added up.
> 
> That is not to say that there should not be an egg entry for breakfast.
> 
> The fact remains that someone conscious of what s/he is eating does not consume the entire meal in the Diner or the entire content of the box in the Lounge.


Here it is:

_For example, the new Beef Short Rib box dinner has 1140 cal / 91 g total fat / 1940 mg sodium_

Compare to the traditional dining car Flat Iron Streak with roll and butter, salad and Newman's Ranch dressing, and cheesecake dessert

Roll and butter: 350 / 19 / 500 (bread and butter are both high in sodium)

Salad: 25 / 0 / 15

Newman's Ranch packet: 200 / 17 / 530

Entree with sauce and sides: 460 / 32 / 800

Cheesecake: 320 / 15 / 210

The total for a full Flat Iron Steak dinner is

1355 cal / 83 g total fat / 2055 mg sodium

Basically, at least for the beef offerings, the new dinner and the traditional dinner are nutritionally just about the same.


----------



## tricia

coolcreek said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Holy crap. It’s not even close. The short rib has 91 grams of fat. That’s 140% of your daily recommended intake. Dear god.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. The traditional meal facts are for the entree only. The new meal data is for the entire dinner: including roll, butter, salad, salad dressing, and dessert.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And almost 2000 mg of sodium in that one meal only - almost an entire day's worth. I'd love to see a breakfast that includes some protein and isn't all sugar. Fruit, sweetened yogurt (and it's probably an artificial sweetener, not even sugar) and a muffin? I shouldn't have to go to the cafe car to purchase two hard boiled eggs. It was possible to put together nutritionally OK meals from the dining car options, but these prepackaged meals are full of high fat, high sodium, high sugar foods. It's like trying to eat healthy at a ballpark. And the current veg option can't bail me out- I'm allergic to eggplant. My bad luck.
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll find hard-boiled eggs in the cafe car, alas.


----------



## PVD

Actually, they had them in the cafe on a train I was on. The LSA announced that they had hard boiled eggs, mayo, and relish, and folks could make egg salad on a bagel sandwiches. Sold out pretty quick.


----------



## cocojacoby

I can't understand all of the concern over the nutritional value of the new food items by some here. You are not eating on Amtrak every night are you? It's only once in a great while. As long as it tastes good that's all that's important. One unhealthy meal won't kill you. Relax.


----------



## lordsigma

Glad to hear the short ribs are at least ok. I am planning a cross country trip soon so I'll be having to experience this menu for at least part of the trip. It sounds like this service works pretty well on the two trains it is used on. But I think if Amtrak is planning on making changes to F&B on all the LD trains it needs to do something different on the longer trains. I think the longer trains where end to end customers have more meals need more choices.


----------



## Palmetto

July is almost over. So what's the next change going to be?


----------



## VentureForth

The meals seem cheap enough that they could offer on the Star without raising prices.


----------



## VentureForth

cocojacoby said:


> I can't understand all of the concern over the nutritional value of the new food items by some here. You are not eating on Amtrak every night are you? It's only once in a great while. As long as it tastes good that's all that's important. One unhealthy meal won't kill you. Relax.


For those with reactive allergies, it could be life or death. For diabetics like me, I would like as low carb as possible. I am supposed to not exceed 15g of carbs per meal. Do I exceed that on occasion? Sure - but generally when I have the opportunity to work it off. Low carb breakfast items are possible but they rather provide one option only that had more than my daily allowance, while I'm fairly captive in a sedentary environment. Quiche, eggs, cheese, bacon, are all low to no carb and certainly viable.


----------



## VentureForth

PVD said:


> I have traveled on 2 trips under the new system. On one, everything was bagged, on the other, you were asked if you wanted the bag or a tray.


I'm happy to see that even rolling out a new concept, Amtrak excels at being inconsistent.


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> Fair enough. I guess it’s sort of inconsequential for me anyway since I don’t eat meat


I'm a vegetarian once-removed myself.


----------



## lordsigma

Is the term "Sleeper Lounge" something Amtrak is officially using or is it more just an unofficial term people are using to differentiate from the full-service diners? From what I've seen Amtrak still seems to refer to them as "dining cars" in official remarks about the new LSL/CL F&B service. I have seen the term "private dining car" used since it is no longer open to coach passengers. Just curious if its an official/unofficial thing.


----------



## cocojacoby

lordsigma said:


> Is the term "Sleeper Lounge" something Amtrak is officially using or is it more just an unofficial term people are using to differentiate from the full-service diners? From what I've seen Amtrak still seems to refer to them as "dining cars" in official remarks about the new LSL/CL F&B service. I have seen the term "private dining car" used since it is no longer open to coach passengers. Just curious if its an official/unofficial thing.


Official Amtrak Info:

_Dining: Contemporary and fresh dining choices for Sleeping car customers onboard. Meals can be ordered with the Sleeping car attendant and delivered to Sleeping car passengers through enhanced room service. Sleeping car customers choose from a variety of quality, fresh and readyto-serve meals. A Kosher meal is available with advance notice. Sleeping car passengers have the option to dine at available seating in the *Lounge car* or served in their bedrooms or roomettes._


----------



## keelhauled

lordsigma said:


> Thanks and sorry I somehow skipped over that. Was it micro or convection oven (if you know.)


I suspect convection, since it was very evenly heated, but I don't know.



lordsigma said:


> Is the term "Sleeper Lounge" something Amtrak is officially using or is it more just an unofficial term people are using to differentiate from the full-service diners? From what I've seen Amtrak still seems to refer to them as "dining cars" in official remarks about the new LSL/CL F&B service. I have seen the term "private dining car" used since it is no longer open to coach passengers. Just curious if its an official/unofficial thing.


The train crew on my LSL trip consistently referred to it as a private sleeper lounge or sleeper lounge. They explicitly said that the diner had been replaced.


----------



## coolcreek

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> PRR, you need to post the comparison that you posted on Trainorders showing how little nutritional difference there is between a steak meal served in the Diner and the Short Ribs served in the box when the full meal is added up.
> 
> That is not to say that there should not be an egg entry for breakfast.
> 
> The fact remains that someone conscious of what s/he is eating does not consume the entire meal in the Diner or the entire content of the box in the Lounge.
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> _For example, the new Beef Short Rib box dinner has 1140 cal / 91 g total fat / 1940 mg sodium_
> 
> Compare to the traditional dining car Flat Iron Streak with roll and butter, salad and Newman's Ranch dressing, and cheesecake dessert
> 
> Roll and butter: 350 / 19 / 500 (bread and butter are both high in sodium)
> 
> Salad: 25 / 0 / 15
> 
> Newman's Ranch packet: 200 / 17 / 530
> 
> Entree with sauce and sides: 460 / 32 / 800
> 
> Cheesecake: 320 / 15 / 210
> 
> The total for a full Flat Iron Steak dinner is
> 
> 1355 cal / 83 g total fat / 2055 mg sodium
> 
> Basically, at least for the beef offerings, the new dinner and the traditional dinner are nutritionally just about the same.
Click to expand...

Except that I can pick and choose what I eat when it's prepared for me. Because I do watch fat and sodium, I ask for the steak dry (no sauce) and turn down a roll. I will take a baked potato, but not mashed or casserole. I also skip packaged salad dressing and ask for a couple of lemon slices instead. If everything is prepackaged, you can't do that. I might eat some of the dessert, but not every meal.


----------



## Ryan

I wasn't aware of the fact that Amtrak hired someone to stand over you and make sure that you eat every bite of every item in the box.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> That I don't know. Im also not sure if the viewliner diners even have a microwave.


As the_traveler has iterated many times, Amtrak doesn't microwave anything. They use convection ovens or a proper oven, but never a microwave.


----------



## cpotisch

lordsigma said:


> But I think if Amtrak is planning on making changes to F&B on all the LD trains it needs to do something different on the longer trains. I think the longer trains where end to end customers have more meals need more choices.


Agreed. What works well enough on two relatively short single night routes likely can't be easily scaled to multiple night ultra long distance routes. As I iterated a while ago, I can't have the exact same breakfast and lunch/dinner four days in a row.


----------



## cpotisch

lordsigma said:


> Is the term "Sleeper Lounge" something Amtrak is officially using or is it more just an unofficial term people are using to differentiate from the full-service diners? From what I've seen Amtrak still seems to refer to them as "dining cars" in official remarks about the new LSL/CL F&B service. I have seen the term "private dining car" used since it is no longer open to coach passengers. Just curious if its an official/unofficial thing.


They're officially using it. It shows up in all the press releases about the new system.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> That I don't know. Im also not sure if the viewliner diners even have a microwave.
> 
> 
> 
> As the_traveler has iterated many times, Amtrak doesn't microwave anything. They use convection ovens or a proper oven, but never a microwave.
Click to expand...

Well since this is a new menu item within a new type of service I didn't want to make any claims.

I know you were referring to the diner but "Amtrak doesn't microwave anything" is not true, they do use microwaves in the cafe car.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> For those with reactive allergies, it could be life or death.


For me, death is unlikely, but being violently ill for three weeks is a likely consequence of allergen consumption.
The lack of ingredients lists is flat-out unacceptable.


----------



## TinCan782

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those with reactive allergies, it could be life or death.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, death is unlikely, but being violently ill for three weeks is a likely consequence of allergen consumption.
> The lack of ingredients lists is flat-out unacceptable.
Click to expand...

Some allergens are listed but not a complete ingredient list...

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=310327471DC2AF37072079B3DCBD67BF19BB691FE7E1694E&EV=2


----------



## pennyk

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those with reactive allergies, it could be life or death.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, death is unlikely, but being violently ill for three weeks is a likely consequence of allergen consumption.
> The lack of ingredients lists is flat-out unacceptable.
Click to expand...

Inside each box is a list of ingredients. I have food allergies and was able to read prior to consuming.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> That I don't know. Im also not sure if the viewliner diners even have a microwave.
> 
> 
> 
> As the_traveler has iterated many times, Amtrak doesn't microwave anything. They use convection ovens or a proper oven, but never a microwave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well since this is a new menu item within a new type of service I didn't want to make any claims.
> 
> I know you were referring to the diner but "Amtrak doesn't microwave anything" is not true, they do use microwaves in the cafe car.
Click to expand...

Maybe I should have clarified that I was referring to diners, but since you just admitted that's the case, why are you bothering to correct me?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> That I don't know. Im also not sure if the viewliner diners even have a microwave.
> 
> 
> 
> As the_traveler has iterated many times, Amtrak doesn't microwave anything. They use convection ovens or a proper oven, but never a microwave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well since this is a new menu item within a new type of service I didn't want to make any claims.
> 
> I know you were referring to the diner but "Amtrak doesn't microwave anything" is not true, they do use microwaves in the cafe car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe I should have clarified that I was referring to diners, but since you just admitted that's the case, why are you bothering to correct me?
Click to expand...

You know? You really ought to grow a thicker skin.




Are you going to weep and moan each time someone picks on a detail in your postings?


----------



## Skyline

pennyk said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those with reactive allergies, it could be life or death.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, death is unlikely, but being violently ill for three weeks is a likely consequence of allergen consumption.
> The lack of ingredients lists is flat-out unacceptable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Inside each box is a list of ingredients. I have food allergies and was able to read prior to consuming.
Click to expand...

I imagine a lot of people would not read that list of ingredients until it was too late. But even if they did read it, are there alternatives available from Amtrak (AraMark?) that won't hurt them?

It would be better if pax could easily obtain the list ahead of travel and filter out what they cannot or should not eat. Of course, again, there needs to be alternatives available.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Made a day trip to Temple today on #22/#21.

The Crew told me that the Chicago Base employees are convinced that Fresh and Contemporary Dining will be coming to the Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans by Fall.

Today's Eagles were Full, with No Slots for Dinner in the Diner for Coach Passengers!

They also told me that #21/421 is leaving Chicago short of items listed on the Menu.

Prices for Sleepers and Rail Fare are mostly High Bucket on most Eagles!


----------



## cpotisch

Bob Dylan said:


> Made a day trip to Temple today on #22/#21.
> 
> The Crew told me that the Chicago Base employees are convinced that Fresh and Contemporary Dining will be coming to the Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans by Fall.
> 
> Today's Eagles were Full, with No Slots for Dinner in the Diner for Coach Padsengers!
> 
> They also told me that #21/421 is leaving Chicago short of items listed on the Menu.
> 
> Prices for Sleepers and Rail Fare are mostly High Bucket on most Eagles!


This is really getting sad. Even if it's not confirmed yet, I'm gonna be pretty surprised if the Eagle has full dining service for much longer. It really is becoming harder and harder to justify any long distance Amtrak trip anymore.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

That will be a win for the city of New Orleans though.


----------



## MikeM

cpotisch said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Made a day trip to Temple today on #22/#21.
> 
> The Crew told me that the Chicago Base employees are convinced that Fresh and Contemporary Dining will be coming to the Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans by Fall.
> 
> Today's Eagles were Full, with No Slots for Dinner in the Diner for Coach Padsengers!
> 
> They also told me that #21/421 is leaving Chicago short of items listed on the Menu.
> 
> Prices for Sleepers and Rail Fare are mostly High Bucket on most Eagles!
> 
> 
> 
> This is really getting sad. Even if it's not confirmed, I'd be pretty surprised if the Eagle keeps full dining service for much longer. It's becoming harder and harder to justify any long distance Amtrak trip anymore.
Click to expand...

What makes me sad is that, in my past couple of trips on the Eagle, I've found the diner to be very well run. Even though they're operating a cross-country cafe car, the crews put out good consistent meals, the staff is attentive, and the food quality pretty good all things considered. For me, the diner is the highlight of the trip in that it gets you visiting with random others on the train, and you get interesting perspectives. It makes me sad to think that in the future, what we are going to be doing is eating random convenience food from a box in an empty diner, with little variety.

The real question I ask now is how long will this "diner / sleeper lounge" program last? At what point does Amtrak management decide that they don't "need" diners, so everything comes from the lounge car.

I was reading an older article the other night in the UP Historical Society magazine about diner operations on the UP in the final years of passenger service. One thing that struck me was how they kept innovating to offer diner service to ALL passengers on the train, at all price points. Use of simpler entrees, luncheon cars that had stool seating (think Waffle Hut on rails...) that could operate with fewer employees and a smaller kitchen, etc. I think there is an arguement to be made that Amtrak should be working to generate more diner business, including coach passengers, by utilizing every table in the car, maybe split half/half between sleeper and coach passengers, and offer some inexpensive dining options for those on a budget.

I did go ahead and cancel my trip on the Eagle in late September after reading here and elsewhere about the impending change, which appears imminent in early September. My biggest hope is that the current administration at Amtrak sees the support that passenger rail has in congress (thinking about the push on the Southwest Chief funds) and that a drop in passenger counts drives some realization that this isn't the way to go. In the meantime, I just don't want to deal with it. I can manage around older cars, iffy HVAC, and inconvenient stations, but this is a bridge too far for me.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> That will be a win for the city of New Orleans though.


In some respects, yes. But not in every way. Now coach passengers won't be able to dine, and at least at this point, there will still be the issue of such limited menu options. However I'm more concerned about this becoming the standard for LD trains, rather than the CONO itself getting the treatment. And for the TE, it 100% will be a big step down, since that offers significantly better meal service than even the LSL did before it get all contemporary.


----------



## cpotisch

MikeM said:


> Even though they're operating a cross-country cafe car, the crews put out good consistent meals, the staff is attentive, and the food quality pretty good all things considered.


Something a lot of people often forget is that the CCC has the exact same kitchen and cooking facilities as the standard Superliner diners. It's got a new interior set up to serve as both a diner and cafe, but there aren't any differences under the hood.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Yes exactly, the CCC design is actually a pretty smart design in my opinion for a railroad with a limited supply of rolling stock. The CCC cars can easily function as a full diner, a full cafe lounge, or a lounge.

May be worth pointing out that the "Cross Country Cafe" was the "fresh choices" of 10 or so years ago. It eliminated staff members by combining the diner and the lounge service into one car. It was begun as a "test" on the 2 trains, the city and the Texas Eagle. That test lasted about 6 months? And then they switched the cars back to regular full service diners when the test didn't go as planned.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes exactly, the CCC design is actually a pretty smart design in my opinion for a railroad with a limited supply of rolling stock. The CCC cars can easily function as a full diner, a full cafe lounge, or a lounge.


Not really. An SSL has a full upper level of panoramic windows and a downstairs cafe. A standard Superliner diner has 18 four person tables on the upper-level. When the CCC is used as both, it replaces all of that with 10 tables in the dining car section, and six tables and booths for the cafe section, all with normal size windows. So I do not think it can replace a dining car and an SSL, since it doesn't have nearly enough capacity or a proper layout to serve that role.


----------



## cpotisch

Maverickstation said:


> Thanks for posting this, we need more as these actual reports from the road (as opposed to speculation, or I heard from the friend of my cousin.....).
> 
> The consistent issue that is being reported lately is poor stocking of those trains that still offer traditional dining car service.
> 
> Some items are being reported as short stocked, and others not available at all.
> 
> Ken


Maybe they're just trying to bomb proper meal service so that they can justify more "fresh choices."


----------



## PVD

It is not uncommon to see the CCC car used as the diner, with an SSL still in the consist. At times I have seen the cafe open in the CCC with downstairs closed in the SSL, and also the other way around with the downstairs in use.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> It is not uncommon to see the CCC car used as the diner, with an SSL still in the consist. At times I have seen the cafe open in the CCC with downstairs closed in the SSL, and also the other way around with the downstairs in use.


It's not just not uncommon for a CCC to serve alongside an SSL, but it's actually been exclusively that way for several years. When they had first introduced the CCCs, they replaced the SSL with it, but when that was found to be absolutely disastrous, they brought back the proper lounge car. If I recall correctly, snacks are typically served in the SSL on the CONO and Texas Eagle, whereas on the Capitol, the SSL is usually unmanned and snacks are purchased in the CCC.


----------



## jis

Stocking problem is no0t something that suddenly appeared over the last six months. It has been an ongoing problem for at least the last five years if not more.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Stocking problem is no0t something that suddenly appeared over the last six months. It has been an ongoing problem for at least the last five years if not more.


Though the premise is nothing new, it sounds like it's been getting worse recently. I've seen a lot more trip reports of late where the diner hadn't been stocked and multiple items were gone only a short way into the trip, so it just seems like it's become more of an issue in the past couple months. Just the sense I get.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The last few times I've been on the city, the CCC served as both diner and cafe with the lower level of the ssl closed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

cpotisch is correct. In addition CCCs sometimes replace the SSL, so you have 2 in a consist, which sucks!

Even worse is to just have 1 that serves as the Diner and Lounge as the original plan intended, which sucks even more!


----------



## jis

I had Mussels on the Crescent a few weeks back


----------



## pennyk

JRR said:


> no one important said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thought people might appreciate a guest report on the LD meal situation, from a week or so ago.
> 
> *Capitol Ltd*: Boarded in TOL, so did not experience the boxed dinner from the night before; other passengers indicated they liked it. The boxed breakfast, however.... I call it "The Sugar Bomb." Here's what you get. A Kashi bar (sugar), a yogurt parfait with vanilla sweetened yogurt (sugar) and granola (sugar) and blueberries (healthy sugar). A fruit plate (also healthy sugar). A muffin (and as we all know, muffins are cupcakes). This is a travesty of a breakfast for anyone who depends on some form of protein in the morning. Would it be that much trouble to subsitute the Kashi bar or muffin with cheddar, mozz or other packaged cheese? (Like what is sold in the cafe car?) It seems somehow wrong to advise sleeping car passengers to bring their own food.. but if you're on the chronically late Train 30, probably want to consider it. Mind you, the blueberries were good, all 6 of them, and part of the fruit plate (I don't eat melons, enjoyed the grapes and mango slices). However with no lunch service, the so called 1st class fare paying passengers can help with the cafe car income stream, or pack your own. I have to have some small amount of protein in the morning, it doesn't have to be a full hot breakfast but the Sugar Bomb is not acceptable. Also, it comes with a lavish amount of excess packaging including marketing messages describing how the packaging is actually green and sustainable. Likely done with the Cap and will board the Silver in NYP or DC from now on.
> 
> *Silver Meteor*: Traditional meal service still present in dining car, although on this trip, no steaks if you boarded in WAS. Not acceptable that "a large group ordered all the steaks." No fish either. We made do with the chicken, and the service could have been a little less surly, but I think they they were busy and tired. Breakfast items - had enough omelletes, thankfully, although if you wanted the quesadilla you were out of luck. Lunch: Well, the "Group" was detraining in Orlando so the passengers at later stops got their leftovers for lunch, too. No dessert left other than sugar free vanilla pudding. I'm not a big dessert person, but the younger generation wasn't pleased. Had I been paying for this trip cash instead of using AGR points I would have been livid.
> 
> We traditionally take the train down to Miami and fly home.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty accurate review. Mirrors my wife and my experience on the CL and Meteor this week. Would note that on that last two trips on the Meteor, we were told no mussels were stocked and the pecan tarts seem to be no longer stocked though on the menu.
Click to expand...

A few weeks ago, I traveled on the Silver Meteor twice, Crescent once, Capitol Limited once, Sunset Limited twice and Texas Eagle twice (and on the Crescent, we lost a great friend). To say the least, I do not remember exactly on which train, I had what (except CL). On at least 2 of the trains, the salmon was not available and shrimp was substituted. At least one of our group liked the shrimp. I did not try it. I remember that salmon was available on the Crescent. On at least one of the trains, neither the chocolate raspberry tarte nor pecan tarte was available, but a very tasty apple cobbler was offered. On one of the Sunset Limited trips, a very nice craft (new to me) beer was available in the cafe. Also the beer selection of the Capitol Limited was better than "usual."


----------



## PVD

If reasonable substitutes are offered when an item is not available, so that customers have some options, I don't think that is a big deal. On the other hand, the previous reports of stocking problems that seriously limited choices seem to be popping up more often. As JIS indicated, it is certainly not a new issue, is it getting worse, or are we just mentioning it more because of the whole dining car issue? I don't really know.


----------



## MikeM

From my side, the problem with the CCC as diner is you have half as many tables for the diner, so getting dinner passengers becomes more of an ordeal. And that tends to result in the diner losing business from coach passengers since they fill up from sleepers first. So you have a whole car that can do half the business, but all of the kitchen.

As originally intended, the idea wasn't bad - for a small train, a combination diner and lounge would be a handy car to have - if it had observation windows in the lounge section. Moreover, I've noticed lots of people in my travels tend to kick back in the single seats in the observation lounge to read books, listen to music, or watch the countryside go by. With the lounge section of the CCC, not only do you have smaller windows, but the seating is all group seating and focused inwards, not outwards.

I would really love to see Amtrak embrace food service rather than push it away - come up with budget entrees that would be attractive to coach passengers, figure out how to get as many customers through the diner as possible, maybe even split it into a coach diner and a sleeper diner, with different menus or whatnot. Plus convert the SSL lower level into more of a convenience store on wheels, with more variety and self serve options. Don't see any of this happening with the current administration, be interesting to see what happens in the next year or so.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I don't think the CCC cars diner side seats less people than a full Superliner diner seats in practice. Meaning, the full diner has more physical seats, but they aren't all used during meal times.

In order to have larger seatings, you would have to have a larger staff.


----------



## tonijustine

crescent-zephyr said:


> The last few times I've been on the city, the CCC served as both diner and cafe with the lower level of the ssl closed.


Ditto. Two round trips on the CONO in the past 14 months and though there was both a CCC and SSL, the CCC served as diner and lounge and the lower level lounge on the SSL was closed.


----------



## cocojacoby

MikeM said:


> I would really love to see Amtrak embrace food service rather than push it away - come up with budget entrees that would be attractive to coach passengers


Only experienced this once on either the Meteor or the Star when they had a diner. They made an announcement that they were having a special in the diner of a chicken dinner for $7.50. It was sold out by the time we got there for the second sitting.

Never experienced this before or since.

On another trip, and again only once, they announced as the diner closed that they were selling meals for takeout.

Seems like there certainly are things Amtrak could do to generate more revenue from the dining cars.


----------



## cpotisch

There’s also the “Just for you” meal service on certain western trains, which offers a pretty cheap, hot boxed meal for Coach passengers, eaten at their seat. Usually it comes with a meat entree, a side (I’ve seen mashed potatoes a few times), a large chocolate chip cookie, and a large bottle of water. I think it’s usually $10-12, and sells really well.


----------



## EchoSierra

I'm thinking about doing a trip on the Lake Shore Limited in a sleeper. I have a few questions about this new dining change.

How many meals are served on the Lake Shore Limited between Boston and Chicago? It departs at ~1PM. Do they serve lunch? I'm assuming that they serve dinner. Do they serve breakfast since the arrival into Chicago is in the morning?

What does the amenity kit look like, and what does it contain?


----------



## OBS

EchoSierra said:


> I'm thinking about doing a trip on the Lake Shore Limited in a sleeper. I have a few questions about this new dining change.
> 
> How many meals are served on the Lake Shore Limited between Boston and Chicago? It departs at ~1PM. Do they serve lunch? I'm assuming that they serve dinner. Do they serve breakfast since the arrival into Chicago is in the morning?
> 
> What does the amenity kit look like, and what does it contain?


Yes, all three meals are served.


----------



## cpotisch

OBS said:


> EchoSierra said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking about doing a trip on the Lake Shore Limited in a sleeper. I have a few questions about this new dining change.
> 
> How many meals are served on the Lake Shore Limited between Boston and Chicago? It departs at ~1PM. Do they serve lunch? I'm assuming that they serve dinner. Do they serve breakfast since the arrival into Chicago is in the morning?
> 
> What does the amenity kit look like, and what does it contain?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, all three meals are served.
Click to expand...

You sure they serve lunch?


----------



## PVD

Lunch was served to Boston sleeper passengers out of the split car. The first meal out of NYP was dinner. I don't know how it is handled with both the diner and cafe out of Boston.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Lunch was served to Boston sleeper passengers out of the split car. The first meal out of NYP was dinner. I don't know how it is handled with both the diner and cafe out of Boston.


Between BOS and ALB (before the changes), sleeper passengers got a hot boxed meal, right?


----------



## PVD

I think so, but I've never gone past Albany in a Boston sleeper, or originated in Boston. Last time I was in one my car was in Albany having been at a meeting in Lake Placid before I left for Colorado.


----------



## OBS

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lunch was served to Boston sleeper passengers out of the split car. The first meal out of NYP was dinner. I don't know how it is handled with both the diner and cafe out of Boston.
> 
> 
> 
> Between BOS and ALB (before the changes), sleeper passengers got a hot boxed meal, right?
Click to expand...

I have seen reports where they were given the option of something off the cafe menu in lieu of the box if they desired...(btw Bos and Alb) in the split cafe.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I've been served Lunch in the Cafe Car departing Boston every time I have ridden it.

You usually had a choice of 2 items, usually a Cold Sandwich or Salad, or you could order from the Cafe Menu.

With the new Fresh and Contemporary Menu and the Diner becoming a Sleeper Lounge", who knows?

We need a report from a recent rider on #449.


----------



## PVD

And that may not be the final answer, because the NY section will likely return with the diner in the near future, and they may not want to deal with stocking "the new meals" from 2 points.


----------



## bratkinson

Bob Dylan said:


> I've been served Lunch in the Cafe Car departing Boston every time I have ridden it.
> 
> You usually had a choice of 2 items, usually a Cold Sandwich or Salad, or you could order from the Cafe Menu.
> 
> With the new Fresh and Contemporary Menu and the Diner becoming a Sleeper Lounge", who knows?
> 
> We need a report from a recent rider on #449.


I don't know about the current meals on 449, but as I write, I'm on 448 just approaching Pittsfield. Lunch was officially 'finished' about 1:30 I think they said, and dinner will be from 5:00 until Worcester (6:44PM as we're on time at the moment).

I'll be on the 'restored' 449 after Labor Day. These days, I ride coach to ALB then get a sleeper in the NYP section...at the rear of the train. Up to perhaps 8-9 years ago, I booked sleeper all the way from SPG to CHI. The hot meals for sleeper passengers was served all together in one seating in the lounge car. There was a choice of 2-3 hot items, fairly comparable to what is served these days on the Cardinal. The meals in the AM II dinette recently on the LSL were a bit better than what was served from the lounge car. On my 449 trips in the past couple years, there's still the 'single seating' plan for those wanting dinner before arriving ALB. I may just take them up on that and get 'lounge car hot' vs $5,000,000 'refridgerator/lounge' car boxed cold.

For what it's worth, rather than the cold unpalletable boxed breakfast, I opted to sleep in and get 'brunch' in the lounge car about 10:30. Surprisingly, in chatting with the attendant, I was only the 2nd sleeper passenger to get a meal in the lounge. But then, the couple across the hall from me, this is their first time on a train in many many years. So it's most likely that even the more recent sleeper passengers will all be surprised at the changeover to cold food.

Almost forgot...my sleeping car attendant announced after leaving CHI we all have to go to the sleeper lounge car for our meals. Apparently she has no interest in room delivery. However, I did see one couple bring their boxed breakfasts to their room, only to see them get off 10 minutes later at the next stop. So much for customer service oriented SCAs. And she makes frequent, 2-3 minute announcements about trivial matters over the PA, too. Next trip, I think I'm going to duct tape the in room speaker as the volume control doesn't cut it off completely!


----------



## coolcreek

pennyk said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those with reactive allergies, it could be life or death.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, death is unlikely, but being violently ill for three weeks is a likely consequence of allergen consumption.
> The lack of ingredients lists is flat-out unacceptable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Inside each box is a list of ingredients. I have food allergies and was able to read prior to consuming.
Click to expand...

Do you recall if the ingredients listed preservatives? They are one thing that you find in prepacked foods that you are much less likely to find in freshly prepared meals - and are one reason some people have to stay away from deli meats and things with a long shelf life, such as the ready meals they're now serving. They pop up everywhere - a lot of wines, I've had to give up buying inexpensive imported spices at the ethnic grocery stores because everything is treated with sulfites to keep them fresh longer and switched to Penzey's as they list additives on the label.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Not sure if they will read it, but I hope you report the lack of customer service from your SCA, it's been advertised that the "fresh" food is to be delivered to your room OR eaten in the lounge.


----------



## cpotisch

bratkinson said:


> Almost forgot...my sleeping car attendant announced after leaving CHI we all have to go to the sleeper lounge car for our meals. Apparently she has no interest in room delivery. However, I did see one couple bring their boxed breakfasts to their room, only to see them get off 10 minutes later at the next stop. So much for customer service oriented SCAs. And she makes frequent, 2-3 minute announcements about trivial matters over the PA, too. Next trip, I think I'm going to duct tape the in room speaker as the volume control doesn't cut it off completely!


I get that she's probably not too happy about having to deliver so many passengers' meals to their rooms now, but that's just not okay. I don't want to sound punitive or petty, but when an employee asks like that, I usually recommend calling USA-RAIL and letting them know that that employee was hostile and refused to carry out one of her major responsibilities.
EDIT: Darn. crescent-zephyr beat me to it.


----------



## keelhauled

It's just as the menu says... "Allowing you to experience your journey with no boundaries...except those petty and arbitrary ones set by our OBS personnel."

Oh wait, that's not what it says? Well, it's the implication anyway.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Why not do the just for you service on the Cap and LSL? It's a hot meal, filling, and satisfactory, and less trash. Maybe arrange a lighter option too, or pull one from the current bix menus.


----------



## JRR

The amount of trash from the new meals on the CL is appalling. Huge bags filled with the boxes, plastic and glass containers.


----------



## cpotisch

ParanoidAndroid said:


> Why not do the just for you service on the Cap and LSL? It's a hot meal, filling, and satisfactory, and less trash. Maybe arrange a lighter option too, or pull one from the current bix menus.


Just for you still requires them to prepare a full hot meal. It's a good option if you want to offer coach passengers a relatively inexpensive meal and get some extra revenue where you wouldn't otherwise, but I don't see any reason why that's going to cost less or offer better food than the current system.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I do think a properly marketed "just for you" type menu for coach... Served at your seat by your coach attendant (the way it was supposed to be done), along with a slightly larger, but still limited, chef preprared menu for sleeping car passengers served at your room by your attendant, or picked up by LSA in the "sleeper lounge" could be a nice middle ground compromise. You could save considerable costs by cutting out the servers, but still prepare somewhat fresh food on board.

Someone is paying for the bags, fancy packaging, and pre-prepared foods being served in the new program, by cutting a few of those costs down, it could potentially even out, especially if you added a few extra cost "premium" appetizers / deaserts available to sleeper passengers.


----------



## bretton88

JRR said:


> The amount of trash from the new meals on the CL is appalling. Huge bags filled with the boxes, plastic and glass containers.


To be fair, we don't know how much trash the previous setup was generating, just much of it was hidden from the customer. I know that when I worked in an industrial kitchen, we generated large amounts of trash too.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

bretton88 said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> The amount of trash from the new meals on the CL is appalling. Huge bags filled with the boxes, plastic and glass containers.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, we don't know how much trash the previous setup was generating, just much of it was hidden from the customer. I know that when I worked in an industrial kitchen, we generated large amounts of trash too.
Click to expand...

 It's hard to hide it when the trash is collected at major station stops right in front of you. In my experience the reusable dishes era produced less than a quarter of the trash being produced with today's setup. When "modern" lunchbox dining comes to Texas Eagle Sleeper Class I'll check again to see how it compares.


----------



## TEREB

We were on the northbound Silver Meteor mid July. The AC in the Dining room wasn't working so we decided to have our meals in our bedroom and asked for late service. We had no problems getting what we wanted. We also had the pecan tart and the raspberry tart after both lunch and dinner. Whipped cream topping was not offered though.


----------



## JRR

Well, end of July, we got the whipped topping but not the other. I guess I’d trade and bring my own topping.


----------



## Maverickstation

Back to the Lake Shore Limited for a moment......................

The train is supposed to be on the new Contemporary Menu which means lunch and dinner are exactly the same.

From some of the recent comments it sounds like hey were discussing the limited menu that was served on the Boston section.

So which, is which ?

Ken


----------



## me_little_me

keelhauled said:


> It's just as the menu says... "Allowing you to experience your journey with no boundaries...except those petty and arbitrary ones set by our OBS personnel."
> 
> Oh wait, that's not what it says? Well, it's the implication anyway.


One of three major Amtrak operational problems along with on-time performance on the long distance network and unclean restrooms. Amtrak has standards that any OBS member can arbitrarily ignore or change whenever they want.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

In my personal experiences over the past 10 years riding Amtrak, inconsistent service and dirty windows are my #1 complaint.

The timekeeping has been pretty good for me, maybe I'm just lucky but I haven't been on any significantly late amtrak trains in the past 10 years with the exception of the Empire Builder during that initial oil cluster in North Dakota a few years ago. I remember being on a crescent train that was like 2 hours late into New Orleans, but 2 hours is like a weather delay at an airport, it just happens from time to time.


----------



## Skyline

crescent-zephyr said:


> In my personal experiences over the past 10 years riding Amtrak, inconsistent service and dirty windows are my #1 complaint.
> 
> The timekeeping has been pretty good for me, maybe I'm just lucky but I haven't been on any significantly late amtrak trains in the past 10 years with the exception of the Empire Builder during that initial oil cluster in North Dakota a few years ago. I remember being on a crescent train that was like 2 hours late into New Orleans, but 2 hours is like a weather delay at an airport, it just happens from time to time.


Oh but if only 2 hours was the upper limit of Amtrak delays!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well... The same can be said for airlines! Ha.

I meant that, when I ride Amtrak I expect to be relatively on time based on previous experiences with Amtrak.

However I have no idea what to expect in regards to the condition / cleanliness of the train, the service or lack thereof, food service etc. It's been a pretty mixed bag from excellent to terrible.


----------



## neroden

coolcreek said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those with reactive allergies, it could be life or death.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, death is unlikely, but being violently ill for three weeks is a likely consequence of allergen consumption.
> The lack of ingredients lists is flat-out unacceptable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Inside each box is a list of ingredients. I have food allergies and was able to read prior to consuming.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you recall if the ingredients listed preservatives? They are one thing that you find in prepacked foods that you are much less likely to find in freshly prepared meals - and are one reason some people have to stay away from deli meats and things with a long shelf life, such as the ready meals they're now serving. They pop up everywhere - a lot of wines, I've had to give up buying inexpensive imported spices at the ethnic grocery stores because everything is treated with sulfites to keep them fresh longer and switched to Penzey's as they list additives on the label.
Click to expand...

This is vital for me too -- I need a FULL and COMPLETE ingredients list, because the main thing I'm allergic to is this stupid additive called "guar gum". (For one of my friends' kids, it's Red #40.)

If the ingredients list says "breadcrumbs" or "tamari sauce" or "sour cream", well, that's not a complete ingredients list. It's out.

So I do want to check that. Are these FULL, FDA-qualifying ingredients lists, or just a half-assed list of major ingredients?


----------



## pennyk

Ingredient list for short ribs dinner


----------



## tonys96

IMHO, the lack of choices, coupled with the lack of knowing what you get with the few choices available, plus the innate desire for a HOT (warm) meal on a 18+ hour trip makes this experiment unacceptable in my personal case. My allergies to mayo and substitutes, and plain ol' dislike of the taste of mustard and ketchup make pre packaged wraps and sandwiches unacceptable.


----------



## jis

At least in the choices I got all the condiments were in separate packets and not pre-applied to the sandwich. It was upto me to choose the ones I wanted and apply them. So you would be able to not use the ones you don’t like. I of course like them all so have a bit of extra work to do [emoji57]


----------



## Maverickstation

pennyk said:


> Ingredient list for short ribs dinner


Thats very interesting considering Amtrak's Food Facts site has very different nutritional data on this meal, including a dangerous level of sodium.


----------



## pennyk

Maverickstation said:


> Amtrak.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ingredient list for short ribs dinner
> 
> 
> 
> Thats very interesting considering Amtrak's Food Facts site has very different nutritional data on this meal, including a dangerous level of sodium.
Click to expand...

The ingredient list that I posted was inside the box. I did not have the short ribs dinner, but asked a friend who was at my table if I could photograph his ingredient list included in this box meal. He said "yes."


----------



## JRR

Maverickstation said:


> Amtrak.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ingredient list for short ribs dinner
> 
> 
> 
> Thats very interesting considering Amtrak's Food Facts site has very different nutritional data on this meal, including a dangerous level of sodium.
Click to expand...

The short ribs had a good

flavor but I thought they were salty. I thought perhaps it was just my taste preference. I had no idea it was really that bad!


----------



## PVD

If it is salty and tastes salty, that is isn't good, but what is worse is that so many foods have a very high sodium content and you don't notice it.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I rode the AutoTrain last weekend, and received a pretty comprehensive survey. Regarding dining, I was asked if I preferred cold or hot meals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner (even though lunch is not served). The survey also asked how important contemporary and fresh food was to me. I think this is a pretty disingenuous way to drum up support for this menu on other trains. Contemporary is very subjective, and who would say no to fresh food? I answered no, fully expecting the results to be twisted to support further roll out on other trains.


----------



## ehbowen

chrsjrcj said:


> I rode the AutoTrain last weekend, and received a pretty comprehensive survey. Regarding dining, I was asked if I preferred cold or hot meals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner (even though lunch is not served). The survey also asked how important contemporary and fresh food was to me. I think this is a pretty disingenuous way to drum up support for this menu on other trains. Contemporary is very subjective, and who would say no to fresh food? I answered no, fully expecting the results to be twisted to support further roll out on other trains.


Sounds a lot like those loaded political "surveys" which arrive in my mail every week en route to the nearest recycle bin.


----------



## JRR

PVD said:


> If it is salty and tastes salty, that is isn't good, but what is worse is that so many foods have a very high sodium content and you don't notice it.


We use very little salt in our cooking at home so it isn’t unusual for us when eating out to feel that some foods are saltier than our preference.

I did find the short ribs too salty but as expressed in my previous post, I was still surprised to see how much sodium was in the serving.

Because we have no known allergies, my wife and I do not look as closely at the ingredients listed as we probably should.


----------



## cpotisch

chrsjrcj said:


> I rode the AutoTrain last weekend, and received a pretty comprehensive survey. Regarding dining, I was asked if I preferred cold or hot meals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner (even though lunch is not served). The survey also asked how important contemporary and fresh food was to me. I think this is a pretty disingenuous way to drum up support for this menu on other trains. Contemporary is very subjective, and who would say no to fresh food? I answered no, fully expecting the results to be twisted to support further roll out on other trains.


This is getting so scummy. Any passenger who isn't following all the goings on of meal service on the other routes will, as you say, support a change to "fresh and contemporary" dining. This is just getting so tedious.


----------



## cocojacoby

chrsjrcj said:


> I rode the AutoTrain last weekend, and received a pretty comprehensive survey. Regarding dining, I was asked if I preferred cold or hot meals for breakfast, lunch, and dinner (even though lunch is not served). The survey also asked how important contemporary and fresh food was to me. I think this is a pretty disingenuous way to drum up support for this menu on other trains. Contemporary is very subjective, and who would say no to fresh food? I answered no, fully expecting the results to be twisted to support further roll out on other trains.


Here we go. The beginning of the end of dinner in the diner as we have known it. However, Auto Train passengers tend to be elderly and regular repeat customers so maybe they voted against change here.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

You do realize that the auto train hasn't had a hot breakfast in years? Their breakast is about the same as the breakfast box.


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## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> You do realize that the auto train hasn't had a hot breakfast in years? Their breakast is about the same as the breakfast box.


You do realize that the Auto Train has a hot dinner with plenty of options and a choice of dessert? And you do realize that coach passengers get free meals on the AT, so if they implemented fresh choices on it, the vast majority of passengers would lose meals? I just wanted to make sure you do realize that stuff.


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## crescent-zephyr

Well it seems reasonable that they would give coach passengers the salad box as well, but naturally nobody can guess what Amtrak will do next.

The fact that the auto train serves a hot dinner to all passengers and a continental breakfast is just more reason for them to go to box dinners, silly to pay so many servers and chefs just for 1 meal.


----------



## cocojacoby

crescent-zephyr said:


> You do realize that the auto train hasn't had a hot breakfast in years? Their breakast is about the same as the breakfast box.


They do at least heat up the bagels.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cocojacoby said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that the auto train hasn't had a hot breakfast in years? Their breakast is about the same as the breakfast box.
> 
> 
> 
> They do at least heat up the bagels.
Click to expand...

That is nice. As simple as it was, the LSA offering to heat up my ham croissant from the breakfast box on the Empire Builder made a big difference to me.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well it seems reasonable that they would give coach passengers the salad box as well, but naturally nobody can guess what Amtrak will do next.
> 
> The fact that the auto train serves a hot dinner to all passengers and a continental breakfast is just more reason for them to go to box dinners, silly to pay so many servers and chefs just for 1 meal.


However the Auto Train only has two consists, and considering the length of the trip, has very high prices. So in many ways paying staff to run the three dining cars is completely justifiable.


----------



## pw1

We did the CL over the last week – WAS-CHI August 12 – CHI-WAS August 17

Something I do not see in this thread is the accessibility of the packaging. Hubby has grip problems in his fingers. While I appreciate and understand the health issues under consideration in keeping the separate items safe – he would have had a difficult time opening everything if he was by himself. We talked about the fact that he could ask for assistance he said it could be embarrassing.

He had the antipasto plate in both directions (only thing slightly appealing to him). The marinated veggie plate could be a little deeper bottom. When I removed the top for him the plate tipped and the oil spilled on our table and an olive fell off. I commented that I was happy we ate in the ‘dining’ area instead of our room because at least it was easier to clean. The bean salad was taped closed in a way that was difficult to get the tape started to come off.

On one leg I had the chicken salad – I am wondering if we are just too klutzy to eat these meals. The chicken needed to be cut – and for the first few times I attempted the bowl tilted and I was able to catch it before it dumped my contents.

On the return trip I decided to open the ‘sustainable’ box and make it like a large placemat. This helped catch the things that fell out of my individual packages.

The breakfast is more food than either of us would normally finish in a morning. I kept the muffins and bars to have for lunch. The fruit was inconsistent. The 29 train had delicious pineapple / cantaloupe / honeydew – the 30 train I barely ate the grapes – all the other fruit was just not tasty at all.

We had a long delay overnight on the 30 and were told first thing in the morning that we would be at least 3 hours late into DC. (shocking I know




) I had brought cereal for us to have in the late morning – and more lunch type food so we were prepared. Although in another thread I heard that they brought in Chick-Fil-A meals – that did not happen. Around 1:30 our attendant asked if we wanted a lunch box. We got one – it contained a bag of wheat thins – bag of goldfish – bag of welch’s fruit snack – 2 oreo cookies – rondele cheese – beef salami – knife – and the tiniest pack of tic-tacs that I have even seen (4). It was enough to tide us over until 4


----------



## tommylicious

What a terrible service. I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I'm glad I had the chance to ride this train when it had proper diner service, but I shan't ride it, or any other overnite train that doesn't have proper diner service....and neither should you.


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## John Bobinyec

The wife just rode first class on the CL and the LSL. Along with your boxed meals you get a "gift pack" consisting of shampoo, conditioner, body wash, body lotion, soap, sewing kit, shower cap, nail file, Q-Tips and a cotton ball.

Bon appetite!

jb


----------



## JayPea

tommylicious said:


> What a terrible service. I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I'm glad I had the chance to ride this train when it had proper diner service, but I shan't ride it, or any other overnite train that doesn't have proper diner service....and neither should you.


It's one thing to decide not to ride any train again that doesn't have proper dining service. Totally up to you, and I understand it. But telling someone else what to do or what not to do based on what YOU like or don't like is another.


----------



## jis

tommylicious said:


> What a terrible service. I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I'm glad I had the chance to ride this train when it had proper diner service, but I shan't ride it, or any other overnite train that doesn't have proper diner service....and neither should you.


I and many others plan to ignore your gratuitous campaign and keep riding [emoji12]


----------



## cpotisch

tommylicious said:


> What a terrible service. I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I'm glad I had the chance to ride this train when it had proper diner service, but I shan't ride it, or any other overnite train that doesn't have proper diner service....and neither should you.


Here's the thing: I almost certainly won't be riding any train that has the current menu found on the LSL and CL, so I'm with you on that. However as JayPea said, it's not at all your place to tell people that they should stop riding based on what you personally don't find acceptable for an overnight train. People can decide for themselves what they will and won't accept when traveling. You don't need to make that decision for them.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Not to mention that some members of this board don't ride in sleeper and don't eat in the diner, so it makes you look super entitled.


----------



## tommylicious

Nothing was finer than dinner in the diner!


----------



## tommylicious

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not to mention that some members of this board don't ride in sleeper and don't eat in the diner, so it makes you look super entitled.


I was addressing the rider who wrote the review and was thus a sleeper and diner customer! People who don't use the diner shouldn't really be concerned with this thread anyhow!


----------



## RebelRider

pw1 said:


> We had a long delay overnight on the 30 and were told first thing in the morning that we would be at least 3 hours late into DC. (shocking I know
> 
> 
> 
> ) I had brought cereal for us to have in the late morning – and more lunch type food so we were prepared. Although in another thread I heard that they brought in Chick-Fil-A meals – that did not happen. Around 1:30 our attendant asked if we wanted a lunch box. We got one – it contained a bag of wheat thins – bag of goldfish – bag of welch’s fruit snack – 2 oreo cookies – rondele cheese – beef salami – knife – and the tiniest pack of tic-tacs that I have even seen (4). It was enough to tide us over until 4


That blue lunch box isn't a "contemporary and fresh" lunch box as part of the service changes. It's the "OMG we're so late and need to keep the natives happy but we can't prepare beef stew because they took our dining car away" box. The Silver Star starting carrying those blue boxes when it lost the dining car. They have a long shelf life but will likely shorten the lives of those who eat everything in them. Ironic... haha.


----------



## PVD

When I took my first airplane flight (EA DC-8 Idelwild to Miami) my parents dressed me in a sportcoat and tie. I'm going to Philly in Sept for the NECA Convention/trade Show, and San Diego in November and will not have a sport jacket, suit, or tie with me. I've take 3 cruises in the last 4 years, a formal night is jacket and tie, no longer a tux. Standards and conventions have changed, and not liking it doesn't change the reality that it has occurred, and that most of the population are fine with it.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I have seen people dress up for dinner on the Meteor--sometimes it's people who have not taken a long-distance (sometimes not any) train before, and dressing for dinner is part of the adventure.

PVD--You will blend in perfectly in Philly if you wear a Phillies T-shirt, sweatshirt, and/or cap



. Do not, under any circumstances, wear anything that says "Mets."


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## PVD

I think the "casualization" of society is a little sad, I can't say I would consider myself dressed up for dinner on the train, but I will put on long pants, and a collared shirt, no matter what I wore lounging around all day.

I was in Philly at the Navy Yard ( course design project at the Penn State Engineering facility) for a week last summer, but the Phillies were on the road... Many years ago (81-82) i drove down for a Rangers Flyers playoff game at the old Spectrum and impetuous youth that I was, wore my Rangers jersey.


----------



## PRR 60

PVD said:


> ...
> 
> I was in Philly at the Navy Yard ( course design project at the Penn State Engineering facility) for a week last summer, but the Phillies were on the road... Many years ago (81-82) i drove down for a Rangers Flyers playoff game at the old Spectrum and impetuous youth that I was, wore my Rangers jersey.


And you lived to tell the tale!


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## JRR

tommylicious said:


> Nothing was finer than dinner in the diner!


in "Carolina"!


----------



## neroden

pennyk said:


> Ingredient list for short ribs dinner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4230E65A-9BAC-4EED-A122-E33FF17DDFAA.jpeg


Excellent.

I mean, neither my girlfriend nor I can actually eat that (thanks to my other dietary restriction), but the important thing is, we can *tell*. Now, if we could get those published for all the meals, it would probably be crystal clear that we have to bring all of our own food. :-(


----------



## jis

BTW, here is a link to the actual clause in 49CFR that is driving all these F&B shenanigans. It is pretty definitive about deadlines and what happens after the deadline in 2020:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/24321


----------



## JRR

Note number 6: “revenue allocation!”


----------



## CAMISSY55

JRR said:


> Note number 6: revenue allocation!


"Ticket Revenue Allocation." That sounds like a highly nebulous term that would allow some "Voodoo Economics."


----------



## JRR

CAMISSY55 said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Note number 6: revenue allocation!
> 
> 
> 
> "Ticket Revenue Allocation." That sounds like a highly nebulous term that would allow some "Voodoo Economics." [emoji57][emoji33] [emoji54]
Click to expand...

Definitely agree but it’s the point I have been making: Voodoo Costs & Voodoo Revenue Allocation = Whatever You Want It To Be!!!!!!!!


----------



## jis

CAMISSY55 said:


> JRR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Note number 6: revenue allocation!
> 
> 
> 
> "Ticket Revenue Allocation." That sounds like a highly nebulous term that would allow some "Voodoo Economics." [emoji57][emoji33] [emoji54]
Click to expand...

Voodoo or not, there has to be a documented method of transferring some funds from the transportation line to the F&B line, of the total ticket revenues collected. At present the actual value of the food consumed by Sleeper passengers according to the price list on the menu is what is transferred. That is what they are referring to.


----------



## JRR

Since the meals are prepaid, presumably for the sleeper passengers whether or not they eat anything, allocating as revenue only the menu price of what is consumed, does not truly reflect the proper allocation of the ticket price.

For example if there are two passengers in a roomette, and four meals for a trip, there is an amount of the ticket price which should be properly allocated to the food and beverage.

To the extent that the passengers actually eat less than that amount, the cost of food used is less and there is the opportunity to sell that food to another coach passenger.

By attributing only the menu price of food consumed by the Sleeper Passenger, one is significantly under reporting f&b revenue.

I do not know if they actually report revenue that way. As I see it, the only proper use of the Sleeper Passenger’s order form, is to record the use of inventory and and additional beverages which would capture that additional revenue.

One would have to have access to the accounting records to see what they actually do.

There are other costs properly allocated to F&B but without a detailed report or audit, we will never know.

Just to keep this on topic, while general in nature, it does apply to the CL and LSL as well as any other.


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## jis

That is the potential discussion that the regulation in 49CFR encourages IMO. However, that has not happened, since no one seems to have stepped upto the plate to develop a schedule of transfer rules. Also that would reduce the financial performance of the train on the transportation side which may lead to the unfortunate unintended consequence of landing up with a canceled train with excellent food, though one would hope that better food would make up for the reduced transportation revenue.

Of course the right thing to do is to remove the requirement for F&B to be a separate P&L item. But I suppose we can only wish.


----------



## railbuck

By not selling the boxed meals to non-sleeper passengers, there is no published menu price, thus theoretically fewer limits on creative cost allocation. Or we could call it fresh, contemporary accounting.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Or just disregard the mandate. Mica was the only one who cared about it. Anderson has already proved he has no problem thumbing his nose at Congress on things he disagrees with.


----------



## Ryan

“Just violate Federal Law” seems like horrible advice.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> “Just violate Federal Law” seems like horrible advice.


Specially with a potentially hostile Attorney General in office. He is the one that has standing to bring action against Amtrak for violating the regulations regarding how the money is to be spent, and of course the SecDOT who is not particularly friendly at present is the one that has to release the next tranche of funds for keeping Amtrak operating. The Executive Branch actually has many levers that they can pull in adverse directions, something that one would want to stay away from as much as possible.

We have possibly grown a bit to relaxed having had friendly AGs and SecDOTs for a while.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> Just violate Federal Law seems like horrible advice.


This!


----------



## Bronzeman

Does anyone have any data regarding what the F&B economics look like on the Canadian? It certainly appears obvious that VIA has reached an entirely different conclusion as to what drives ticket sales and gross revenue.


----------



## jis

VIA is under no stricture to manage F&B as a separate P&L center.

VIA also does accounting differently, as required by Canadian rules. VIA counts what in the US would be called subsidy as "contract revenue", similar to what Amtrak does for the PRIIA 209 state supported services. So the financial picture looks entirely different. VIA, under those accounting rules usually runs a balanced account occasionally with a slight surplus. So it is no surprise that they can reach very different conclusions.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

I seriously doubt anyone would notice. Congress has been good to Amtrak recently and the new one should be too. Theres a half decent chance Anderson will disregard any SWC language. Hes picking and choosing what he follows for his own motives.

Perhaps a better choice would be publicly state downgrading dining service would cost more revenue then it saves and just carry on status quo with a few tweaks. Aka call the bluff like hes doing on everything else.

This whole administration has bigger fish to fry at this point in time. Doing the right thing is correct and noble but the we go high when they go low concept hasnt worked too well so far.

Its all a moot point though Anderson doesnt want a workable solution mandate or not.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> “Just violate Federal Law” seems like horrible advice.
> 
> 
> 
> Specially with a potentially hostile Attorney General in office. He is the one that has standing to bring action against Amtrak for violating the regulations regarding how the money is to be spent, and of course the SecDOT who is not particularly friendly at present is the one that has to release the next tranche of funds for keeping Amtrak operating. The Executive Branch actually has many levers that they can pull in adverse directions, something that one would want to stay away from as much as possible.
> 
> We have possibly grown a bit to relaxed having had friendly AGs and SecDOTs for a while.
Click to expand...

I feel like while Sessions and SecDOT aren't exactly pro-Amtrak at the moment, but I also think that they don't care enough about Amtrak to bother enforcing mandates about how Amtrak spends its own money. And as I understand it, in the three or so years that the F&B mandate has been in place, and the year and a half that Sessions has been AG, there has been no indication of the government trying to take any action against Amtrak for not trying to follow it. Just the way I see it.


----------



## jis

Whatever floats ones boat


----------



## jebr

I'm not convinced that, even if the F&B mandate goes away, that going back to the old status quo is a responsible move for Amtrak. The status quo was fine but nothing inspiring, at least from what seemed to be the consensus around here and my personal experience. Wait staff is expensive, and especially without having the dining service being on the level of the Canadian, the overall experience is kinda...meh. I'm also not convinced that the cost to provide the Canadian's level of F&B service results in an equivalent or greater increase in ticket prices, especially when it's scaled up to a nationwide network vs. a single train that markets itself very strongly to tourists (and, perhaps as a result, is less effective at providing basic transportation than equivalent Amtrak services.)

Even without the F&B mandate, I think going to a lighter-staffing model by removing the full-wait-staff aspect of dining service, is a decent move. The current problem is with implementation - a rather sparse selection of entrees, with only one hot menu option for lunch/dinner (and only one offering, total, for breakfast!) Offering more options, including a wider selection of hot options, moving to pre-ordering meals to allow even wider variety in entrees, and/or hiring back a chef on board with flexibility to make quality meals from scratch (simply picked up at a counter or packaged to be delivered at a seat/accommodation instead of served tableside) would allow it to be an experience that's a net benefit, and arguably better than the status quo for meal service on trains with full diner service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

My thoughts too. Keep the chef, lose the servers. Offer coach passengers at seat meals to help with money, keep the dining room for sleeping car and BC passengers. Seems like a smart business model to me.

If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

crescent-zephyr said:


> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.


If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!


----------



## jis

ParanoidAndroid said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
Click to expand...

That isn’t happening. Sadly.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.

More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

ParanoidAndroid said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
Click to expand...

Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That isn’t happening. Sadly.
Click to expand...

If New York and Maine can successfully run the Great Dome for leaf peepers maybe California can run the PPC as their own limited schedule special.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.
Click to expand...

I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.


----------



## cpotisch

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That isn’t happening. Sadly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If New York and Maine can successfully run the Great Dome for leaf peepers maybe California can run the PPC as their own limited schedule special.
Click to expand...

The Adirondack and Downeaster are both short distance state supported trains. The Starlight gets no state funding and has six consists. So they really are not at all comparable.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.
Click to expand...

Yeah.. I painted that picture a bit abstract... I was saying if you wanted to create a high-price "legacy" service, that was advertised as being something truly special... you could take just 1 all deluxe sleeper, get a great employee like Gul, and a PPC that would serve as the lounge and diner (add additional lounge seats downstairs) for the Legacy guests. The reason I suggested one of the all deluxe sleepers is because you would want to charge a super high price that would actually cover the costs of all this... so the more bedrooms you could sell the better.

I'm also suggesting that only 1 train set be used.. this is not going to be something that the every day traveler will want, this is the type of service that people would plan their trip around. If the demand is there than more can be added.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah.. I painted that picture a bit abstract... I was saying if you wanted to create a high-price "legacy" service, that was advertised as being something truly special... you could take just 1 all deluxe sleeper, get a great employee like Gul, and a PPC that would serve as the lounge and diner (add additional lounge seats downstairs) for the Legacy guests. The reason I suggested one of the all deluxe sleepers is because you would want to charge a super high price that would actually cover the costs of all this... so the more bedrooms you could sell the better.
> 
> I'm also suggesting that only 1 train set be used.. this is not going to be something that the every day traveler will want, this is the type of service that people would plan their trip around. If the demand is there than more can be added.
Click to expand...

So this "legacy service" basically just means a bunch of super expensive bedrooms with access to a PPC? Would this be its own train, or basically a super first class section of one of the full Starlight consists? I honestly don't get why they would need to offer an extra expensive service which includes access to a PPC, considering the Starlight seemed to be doing fine offering the PPC to standard sleeper passengers, and the ultimate issue was the PPC itself.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Amtrakfflyer said:


> As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.
> 
> More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.


As great as that would be, it is financially not feasible. These great cars were built in the 1950s, and only 6 were made. Therefore, what few replacement parts there were are long gone and anything has to literally be fabricated in the shop. Just look at how complex the glass alone is.


----------



## railiner

cpotisch said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't at all see what the benefit would be in putting one of the Auto Train Deluxe Sleepers on the Starlight, along with the PPC. Why would someone pay extra for a Bedroom in that kind of car? Apologies, but I have no idea what your logic is here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah.. I painted that picture a bit abstract... I was saying if you wanted to create a high-price "legacy" service, that was advertised as being something truly special... you could take just 1 all deluxe sleeper, get a great employee like Gul, and a PPC that would serve as the lounge and diner (add additional lounge seats downstairs) for the Legacy guests. The reason I suggested one of the all deluxe sleepers is because you would want to charge a super high price that would actually cover the costs of all this... so the more bedrooms you could sell the better.
> 
> I'm also suggesting that only 1 train set be used.. this is not going to be something that the every day traveler will want, this is the type of service that people would plan their trip around. If the demand is there than more can be added.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So this "legacy service" basically just means a bunch of super expensive bedrooms with access to a PPC? Would this be its own train, or basically a super first class section of one of the full Starlight consists? I honestly don't get why they would need to offer an extra expensive service which includes access to a PPC, considering the Starlight seemed to be doing fine offering the PPC to standard sleeper passengers, and the ultimate issue was the PPC itself.
Click to expand...

Wasn't such a "legacy service" tried and failed a couple of times? As in "American European Express", and more recently, the "Pullman Rail Journey's"?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So this "legacy service" basically just means a bunch of super expensive bedrooms with access to a PPC? Would this be its own train, or basically a super first class section of one of the full Starlight consists? I honestly don't get why they would need to offer an extra expensive service which includes access to a PPC, considering the Starlight seemed to be doing fine offering the PPC to standard sleeper passengers, and the ultimate issue was the PPC itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't such a "legacy service" tried and failed a couple of times? As in "American European Express", and more recently, the "Pullman Rail Journey's"?
Click to expand...

It's been tried before but there is a lot working against it. For instance (1) the freight hosts have little reason or incentive to allow such traffic, (2) outside of Amtrak it's difficult to secure the necessary liability insurance, (3) most of the former passenger car maintenance infrastructure is gone, and (4) much of the technological know-how has long since retired or passed away. Then there's the matter of (5) having to slowly build a base of repeat customers at a loss from short term venture funding.

We also live in a marketplace that casually vacillates between irrational exuberance and economic destruction as the house of cards which underpins our economy periodically shudders and folds under the weight of rampant cronyism. The Savings & Loan crisis, the Internet Bubble, the Subprime Mortgage crisis, etc. Our anything goes Wild West style boom and bust economy will makes it extremely difficult for niche transportation services to remain viable during extended downturns.


----------



## Palmetto

crescent-zephyr said:


> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.
Click to expand...

Except that legacy service hasn't done too well when operated on a regular basis. In fact, it's failed. I recall the American Orient Express, Iowa Pacific Holdings, to name two. Tourist railroads? A different animal.


----------



## nti1094

hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.


----------



## nti1094

nti1094 said:


> hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.


----------



## Ryan

Palmetto said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except that legacy service hasn't done too well when operated on a regular basis. In fact, it's failed. I recall the American Orient Express, Iowa Pacific Holdings, to name two. Tourist railroads? A different animal.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Everyone likes to say they want nice things, but an insufficient number actually put $$$ behind it to make it a viable business model. Unfortunately, you can't run a business on hopes and dreams.


----------



## PVD

Yes but this business has seen a few that keep trying "hopes, dreams, and other peoples money" And on certain forums they worship him.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Both Iowa Pacific and American Orient Express had many reasons for not working, having an interested customer base wasn't one of them.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Both Iowa Pacific and American Orient Express had many reasons for not working, having an interested customer base wasn't one of them.


I think the key word is "a large enough interested customer base willing to cover their cost plus a profit margin". It is not clear that such was available to either of those two. At least no one has produced any credible evidence that they did.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

AOE ran for 19 years... I don't think they were losing money that whole time... In fact it was during the recession in the 2000's that they ceased trips and then started up with the rebranded "Grande Luxe" - that rebranding didn't do so well for them. Still... It's not like it was an overnight failure. They also had crazy high expenses since they were chartering a full train.

Iowa Pacific / Pullman was a much more sustainable concept imho, but my understanding is from day one they wanted to be on a busier route and Amtrak wouldn't work with them. I don't think it was the Pullman company that was losing money.... The bad hoosier state is what really made them go under from what I can tell but I'm not claiming to be an expert.


----------



## bretton88

I would say the the transportation industry in general, there are only 2 models that have shown to work. The bare bones model, or the ultra high end model. The middle has shown to be a money losing venture. Since Amtrak probably can't go to the ultra high end, they're choosing the bare bones business model. Want trains with great food and a nice diner? Be ready to back up the Brinks Truck. Want affordable tickets? Boxed meals for you! I suspect the failures of the operations that provide high end service, like IP and AOE, only encourage Amtrak to follow the bare bones model.


----------



## bretton88

crescent-zephyr said:


> AOE ran for 19 years... I don't think they were losing money that whole time... In fact it was during the recession in the 2000's that they ceased trips and then started up with the rebranded "Grande Luxe" - that rebranding didn't do so well for them. Still... It's not like it was an overnight failure. They also had crazy high expenses since they were chartering a full train.
> 
> Iowa Pacific / Pullman was a much more sustainable concept imho, but my understanding is from day one they wanted to be on a busier route and Amtrak wouldn't work with them. I don't think it was the Pullman company that was losing money.... The bad hoosier state is what really made them go under from what I can tell but I'm not claiming to be an expert.


AOE was opened by Phillip Anschutz. For a long time he was willing to take losses on these operations. The original ski train was another one of his ventures. Eventually the losses became too much, even for him. The rise of liability insurance was one big pressure point.

Now as for Iowa Pacific, that was less sustainable than you think. They've left a long trail of unpaid vendors and tax liens. Look at the sad saga of the Saratoga RR.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I was talking specifically about the Pullman idea being sustainable... Not Iowa pacific as a whole.

Interesting about the AOE and ski train funding.. That I didn't know and is quite interesting.

Obviously the costs would be totally different if Amtrak operated it themselves. I doubt Amtrak could actually pull of the needed 1st class on board service because of union issues. If they could literally pick out the best employees the only thing it would cost them is the marketing, a gourmet order from Aramark, and the use of some cars they already own. Again I'm suggesting 1 train set. They can even make it seasonal.

I think one of the bigger issues is probably "government funding 1st class travel" image. Not that the customer base isn't there.


----------



## cpotisch

nti1094 said:


> hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.


That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think one of the bigger issues is probably "government funding 1st class travel" image. Not that the customer base isn't there.


The first is definitely an issue. The second we actually have no way of knowing whether there is a base to sustain a regularly scheduled service and if so at what frequency, specially for overnight service. Clearly there is base for an occasional PV trip or two, and perhaps even a regularly scheduled car tacked onto a train for a short trip in a carefully selected market may exist.But the theory is yet to be conclusively validated.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> nti1094 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.
> 
> 
> 
> That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.
Click to expand...

Where did you hear that most crews aren't giving them out? I got them each time I was on one of those two trains. Have you traveled in any of those trains recently?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

cpotisch said:


> nti1094 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.
> 
> 
> 
> That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.
Click to expand...

I find the _idea_ of an amenity kit quite appealing. Having a functional backup of basic toiletries could be extremely helpful and practical. However, upon actual inspection they're usually populated with trial sized skin smearing products making dubious claims of questionable relevance.


----------



## jis

I found the shampoo and body wash thing pretty good, and of relevance to Sleeper passengers with access to a shower. It is better than the microscopic bar soap that was traditionally provided. But of course as Bob says YMMV.


----------



## PVD

I got them on my LSL BUF to CHI run, and on the CL on the way back CHI-WAS. The SCA had them in the room when I boarded. On the CL they were stored downstairs, so I guess if someone turned over a room enroute, it could be overlooked, but I now have 2 of them.....


----------



## cpotisch

The issue is that since they've been very inconsistent about actually providing those kits, you can't be sure that you'll actually get one, so you have to bring your toiletries anyway. If we knew for a fact that passengers were always being provided with the kits, that would be different, but the inconsistency makes it basically useless.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nti1094 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey did anyone else notice that the Capitol (I assume LSL too) now has toiletry amenity kits in the rooms? It’s been awhile since I saw one of those anywhere in Amtrak! I would still rather have hot meals prepared by a chef, but it’s at least something.
> 
> 
> 
> That's part of the whole contemporary dining shtick. It seems like most crews haven't even been giving them out, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where did you hear that most crews aren't giving them out? I got them each time I was on one of those two trains. Have you traveled in any of those trains recently?
Click to expand...

I have not travelled on the CL or LSL since the change. I'm drawing this conclusion from what people who have ridden them are saying here. Some people have received the kits, but many have not.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> The issue is that since they've been very inconsistent about actually providing those kits, you can't be sure that you'll actually get one, so you have to bring your toiletries anyway. If we knew for a fact that passengers were always being provided with the kits, that would be different, but the inconsistency makes it basically useless.


Where did you hear about the so called inconsistency. I'd still like to know. I am not saying that they are not. All I am looking for is concrete evidence. If it is hearsay, that is fine too. But just curious about the basis.


----------



## PVD

I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone not getting one. Very little we see here is concrete, since it tends to be hearsay, but I don't remember much of that. either....


----------



## cpotisch

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Amtrakfflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.
> 
> More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.
> 
> 
> 
> As great as that would be, it is financially not feasible. These great cars were built in the 1950s, and only 6 were made. Therefore, what few replacement parts there were are long gone and anything has to literally be fabricated in the shop. Just look at how complex the glass alone is.
Click to expand...

Exactly, just because they still exist doesn't mean that it's feasible for Amtrak to put a bunch of 60 year old cars with no spare parts available back into service. It just doesn't make sense to run those cars anymore.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Where did you hear about the so called inconsistency. I'd still like to know. I am not saying that they are not. All I am looking for is concrete evidence. If it is hearsay, that is fine too. But just curious about the basis.


From my post directly above yours:



cpotisch said:


> I have not travelled on the CL or LSL since the change. I'm drawing this conclusion from what people who have ridden them are saying here. Some people have received the kits, but many have not.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear about the so called inconsistency. I'd still like to know. I am not saying that they are not. All I am looking for is concrete evidence. If it is hearsay, that is fine too. But just curious about the basis.
> 
> 
> 
> From my post directly above yours:
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have not travelled on the CL or LSL since the change. I'm drawing this conclusion from what people who have ridden them are saying here. Some people have received the kits, but many have not.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Any pointers to such messages here? Thanks. I must have just missed them. That is why I am curious.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a "legacy" service on the Starlight or Zephyr you need to be able to buck the unions and put only A+ staff on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to try a legacy service on the Coast Starlight, BRING BACK THE PACIFIC PARLOUR CAR!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just put 1 PPC on a stsrlight set (have a 2nd for backup), and steal an all bedroom sleeper from the auto train, Gul from the Builder (he's already in Seattle) charge a high price for the "legacy service" and advertise it properly. Done deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except that legacy service hasn't done too well when operated on a regular basis. In fact, it's failed. I recall the American Orient Express, Iowa Pacific Holdings, to name two. Tourist railroads? A different animal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indeed. Everyone likes to say they want nice things, but an insufficient number actually put $$$ behind it to make it a viable business model. Unfortunately, you can't run a business on hopes and dreams.
Click to expand...

I just feel like since the PPCs were so old and cost Amtrak so much money to keep them running, a "legacy service" consisting of one deluxe sleeper couldn't possibly cover those costs. Remember that even with the revenue from two or three full sleepers on each train supporting those costs, it still wasn't enough to keep them in service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

cpotisch said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrakfflyer said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as they arent scrapped theres hope, talking about the PPCs. They were already mothballed once after the SSLs were fully delivered. Hopefully the next CEO is more visionary ala Brian Rosenwald.
> 
> More likely would be conversion of a few SSLs to a half sleeper class lounge, half sleeper class dining area which is what the PPC was. So close to what Anderson has done on the two trains already. They just need to polish the product and people would be thrilled. Unfortunately hes not going to.
> 
> 
> 
> As great as that would be, it is financially not feasible. These great cars were built in the 1950s, and only 6 were made. Therefore, what few replacement parts there were are long gone and anything has to literally be fabricated in the shop. Just look at how complex the glass alone is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly, just because they still exist doesn't mean that it's feasible for Amtrak to put a bunch of 60 year old cars with no spare parts available back into service. It just doesn't make sense to run those cars anymore.
Click to expand...

If Amtrak wanted to provide the service, but the cars were not practical to run, the PPC would still be on the Starlight using SSL cars as they did when the ppc car was bad ordered.

If you want to Beleive the cars are impractical to run that's your choice. I don't beleive that though.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Please provide me your source for the PPC's "costing amtrak so much money."

I would be surprised if a ppc car cost any more to maintain then a ssl car on a per year basis.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Please provide me your source for the PPC's "costing amtrak so much money."
> 
> I would be surprised if a ppc car cost any more to maintain then a ssl car on a per year basis.


The SSLs are 20-40 years old and have ample spare parts and maintenance facilities. The PPCs were 60 years old and completely unique. All spare parts had to be custom made, which was incredibly expensive. Of course a fleet of six ancient cars are going to cost more to run per car than their fleet of 50 much newer Sightseer Lounges which don't need custom parts to be kept running.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

So how much was Amtrak going to spend on those cars to run them this year?

How much did they spend on them in 2017? 2016? 2015?

What parts on the PPC are so unique? I've heard the windows are expensive.. I'm sure the windows on the SSL car are expensive too. What else?


----------



## Ryan

I recall reading that the HVAC systems were ancient.


----------



## railiner

Ryan said:


> I recall reading that the HVAC systems were ancient.


I'm sure they were old...but not quite as old as the cars...IIRC, all of the Hi Level cars were originally equipped with self-contained Waukesha enginator's. These were replaced when the cars received the HEP conversion, later.


----------



## PVD

It is generally accepted that maintaining older equipment is more intensive than newer. Aside from parts sourcing challenges, maintenance intervals are almost always shorter on older equipment.A smaller group or type magnifies that. Sometimes, the higher cost of running an older type is balanced out by other factors. An older fully paid for plane or car may be less fuel efficient, but depending on fuel prices may still be viable if the additional maintenance and fuel cost is offset by the lower ownership cost. Other factors creep in, can a piece of equipment do the job required, in airplanes, solid planes with a 3 person crew got retired for comparable 2 person flight crew aircraft. I would be very surprised if a PPC was not quite a bit more expensive to keep on the road over time than a SSL. That doesn't mean a case can't be made to keep them alive, but if they have a minimal effect on passenger satisfaction, and don't bring in money that approaches their cost to keep around, the big question becomes, why?


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Ozark and a few other places still have 40 plus hi levels that could be bought for cheap and used for parts. It could be done and Anderson did it at Northwest and Delta. He kept and bought 30 plus year old DC-9s re did the interiors. Specifically because it was cheaper at the time then ordering new planes. The DC-9 50 just left Delta at about the same time as Anderson. He also bought/ leased orphan md-90s and 717s over 20 years old as well.

I agree the PPC didnt cost an arm and leg especially with no liens or mortgages. They should have been kept at least 2 days a week on weekends as was done the last year.

That being said the smart solution would be convert 4 superliners to half diner, have sleeper lounge and run that on Friday and Saturday departures from LA. Is there 4 damaged SSLs in Beach Groove? It definitely could be done on the low levels since we have excess V2s for the eastern trains. It wouldnt cost much for the re fit in the big picture. Lots of possibilities for someone who was open to thinkikng our of the box.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'm sure the windows on the SSL car are expensive too. What else?


You're missing the point. There are dozens of SSLs. There are plenty of parts for them. The most recent ones were built around 20 years ago, and the company (Bombardier) still exists. There were six PPCs ever, and almost no original parts remain. You can't just say that they both have curved windows so it should all cost the same.


----------



## cpotisch

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Ozark and a few other places still have 40 plus hi levels that could be bought for cheap and used for parts.


As far as I can tell, Ozark is the only place on the continent selling Hi-Levels, and they have a grand total of only 20 cars, none of which are lounges like the PPCs, and each one is selling for at least $55,000. Obviously the lounges share most of their parts with the other variations, but stuff like the windows and parts of the roof likely couldn't be used on the PPCs.

I'm also wondering if this whole discussion would fit way better in the actual PPC thread, and not this one which is supposed to be about dining on the CL and LSL...


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## Amtrakfflyer

Seeing that the capital and lake shore are serving meals in an sleeper lounge its a salient discussion to a point.


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## PVD

Other than the fact that we (or at least most of us) really liked them, is the CS suffering in any measurable financial way from their demise? Do customer service surveys show a groundswell of support for their return?


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## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Other than the fact that we (or at least most of us) really liked them, is the CS suffering in any measurable financial way from their demise? Do customer service surveys show a groundswell of support for their return?


Exactly. Ridership would have to drop a hell of a lot to compensate for the costs saved by ditching the PPC.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Well none of us know what those costs are so it's pretty hard to say isn't it?

Does the SSL car pay for itself? Nope... Would be a lot cheaper to just have a lower level cafe like they do on the surfliners.

Plenty of ways to cut costs if they want to and there will some sort of justification.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well none of us know what those costs are so it's pretty hard to say isn't it?
> 
> Does the SSL car pay for itself? Nope... Would be a lot cheaper to just have a lower level cafe like they do on the surfliners.
> 
> Plenty of ways to cut costs if they want to and there will some sort of justification.


What makes you say that the SSL is more expensive than a Surfliner-esque cafe car? Just that there's revenue seating on the upper level? Or are you saying that the SSL itself is a lot more expensive to operate than a Surfliner cafe?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Yes the revenue seating.

To be clear I am for the ssl, and the PPC (I don't care if it's a physical PPC car or another car offering the same service. Well... I do care, I like the history but I get that old cars need to be replaced eventually, especially if you let the maintenance slide the way Amtrak does...).

Im also for cooked to order food on LD trains, but could see going without the table service on at least some routes.


----------



## PVD

Since the SSL is usable for the whole train, and also carries the cafe, it allows a train to have a lounge for the whole train as well as a cafe, but if you have revenue seating upstairs instead of the lounge, the whole train, not just sleepers lose their lounge.This way the cost of the lounge is spread across the whole trainload, not one part of it. Surfliners are corridor trains, not long distance, they are reflective of what their owners choose to run and pay for. It is very hard to make an economic case to keep the PPC and an SSL on the same train, and losing the PPC is a much more practical solution.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Or is the solution keeping the SSL lounge for coach and a PPC type car lounge/diner for sleepers and removing the diner. Thats almost like Anderson has done on the two trains. If he just served preplated meals in the sleeper lounge like the PPC/Cardinal/Acela did (or does) I think we would have a workable solution. Serve boxes for purchase in the SSL in the 8-14 dollar range for coach passengers. Down the road make one side of the V2 sleeper lounge more lounge like as well.


----------



## ehbowen

Look. There is absolutely no reason why a popular train such as the _Coast Starlight_ and/or the _California Zephyr_ could not/should not run with two lounge cars, one for sleeper passengers and one for coach, in addition to a full dining car. We're trying to bend over backwards here to make Amtrak's nickel-and-diming seem reasonable. If we had followed a policy of ordering 5 or so Superliner shells per year, every year, since the Superliner II order was initially completed, we would have enough of a surplus of equipment and parts that we wouldn't have to worry about scrounging and repairing wrecks, we could have full consists and even second sections during peak periods, and we'd be in position to consider several added services. Plus, we'd have a small but active industry for parts fabrication and passenger car assembly, so we wouldn't have to be reinventing the wheel every 20 years or so.

I don't want to talk about what to cut. I want to talk about what to ADD!


----------



## PVD

What motivation other than sentiment or history is there to keep a very old stub fleet alive? Is the CS losing ridership/revenue in excess of the cost reduction achieved by not running those cars? That's the cruel world of business. Even if one were so inclined to buy some other old cars to mine parts, why waste money on stocking parts that can only be used for a small cluster of cars unless they bring something to the table that has a broad enough appeal to justify the costs which are subsidized by the general public. That is an ongoing challenge for Amtrak, almost every ride is subsidized to one degree or another, how much is spent on, and what constitutes "first class frills" is a big deal.. Adding an additional car of a common type (at least part of the year) would make more sense than trying to keep alive historical anomalies. Lounge space really adds to the experience of travel, lack of decent lounges is one of the major shortcomings of the single level fleet.


----------



## ehbowen

First class frills sell first class tickets. We can't compete with airlines on speed; we can't compete with highways on flexibility; but we CAN compete in terms of the onboard experience.


----------



## PVD

Unless you are willing to raise those prices by a large margin or attracting lots of new customers you are asking the public to put up more money to support those frills so unless the added comforts bring in more extra money than they add cost it is not likely to happen on a publicly supported entity. LD trains are an important means of transportation for a number of reasons, regardless of competitive advantages or disadvantages in a given situation, it is important to maintain viable alternatives.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

PVD said:


> What motivation other than sentiment or history is there to keep a very old stub fleet alive?


The same motivation that had to restore the "very old stub fleet" to begin with!

Taking this back to the topic of the thread... what motivation other than sentiment is there to keep dining car service? Is the CP / LSL losing ridership / revenue?

And then the same can be asked of the SSL cars.


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## PVD

It is probably not possible to get a real good read on the LSL since the ridership numbers have to be hurt by not having a NYP origination, and weather beat the heck out of the CL. Again, I don't particularly like the new style of service, I've ridden both trains since the switch, and have commented extensively on my observations. That being said, there is a real possibility that the loss of revenue, if any, might not be as great as the reduction in costs. As sad as it is for those of us who enjoyed the diner, if it works, it isn't going away, and it might spread.


----------



## lordsigma

PVD said:


> It is probably not possible to get a real good read on the LSL since the ridership numbers have to be hurt by not having a NYP origination, and weather beat the heck out of the CL.


No NYP origination and the consist is also shorter which hinders ridership further.


----------



## cpotisch

I feel like we won't really be able to figure out how ridership was effected by "fresh choices" until at least January. And even that would only tell us what ridership is like for four months in the off-season. My point is, it's going to be a while before we can really get a sense of how the LSL and Capitol are faring from this.


----------



## cpotisch

This was posted in the Texas Eagle Facebook group. One of the members there sent Amtrak a letter with his concerns about contemporary dining following a trip on the Southwest Chief, and here is the response he got, which is supposedly from Stephen Gardner himself:







Apparently "a hot breakfast option is coming on August 15". Considering that was almost two weeks ago, I don't really know what conclusions to draw from that. Still, here's a letter suppose


----------



## Palmetto

I wonder who wrote that letter for Mr. Gardner, and with the August 15 date mentioned, when it was composed. It would not surp rise me to learn that someone wrote up some paragraphs addressing common issues/complaints that have arisen along the way, and put these paragraphs together to get a letter out of them.


----------



## tonys96

If that letter is legit, say bye-bye to a continuous SWC.


----------



## jis

Heh, all that Congress has to do is make the 2019 funding contingent upon continuing to run all current LD trains on their present routes.. They could also designate an amount equal to what Amtrak claims is necessary for the SWC, to the SWC from an appropriation that is already larger than anything Amtrak asked for. Then everyone can declare victory and get to work.

This game is far from over IMHO. Just keep hammering the Congresspeople.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

The letter talks about Amtrak having to reduce its subsidy? Hello... Congress is and has substantially increased said subsidy for the national network. The SWC is the most practical LD western train we have in many ways.


----------



## jis

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The letter talks about Amtrak having to reduce its subsidy? Hello... Congress is and has substantially increased said subsidy for the national network. The SWC is the most practical LD western train we have in many ways.ST


This again goes back to language regarding reducing subsidy that the same Congress found fit to include in bills that found their way into 49CFR. They have the power to remove said language but have not seen it fit to do so yet..

IMHO the whole relationship between the federal government and Amtrak needs to be cast in the form of a Contract wherein Amtrak provides certain specified services in exchange for a certain agreed upon Contract Fee. Then Congress (through appropriations to be managed by SecDOT) can specify what services must be provided for how much fee each year, and they could even strike deal spanning multiple years like they do in the Defense Industry all the time. But I believe Congress doesn't trust itself to be sane enough to manage such a venture, hence the mess that we have.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Heh, all that Congress has to do is make the 2019 funding contingent upon continuing to run all current LD trains on their present routes.. They could also designate an amount equal to what Amtrak claims is necessary for the SWC, to the SWC from an appropriation that is already alrger than anything Amtrak asked for. Then everyone can declare victory and get to work.
> 
> This game is far from over IMHO. Just keep hammering the Congresspeople.


But do they really care enough or understand this issue enough to bother doing that?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heh, all that Congress has to do is make the 2019 funding contingent upon continuing to run all current LD trains on their present routes.. They could also designate an amount equal to what Amtrak claims is necessary for the SWC, to the SWC from an appropriation that is already alrger than anything Amtrak asked for. Then everyone can declare victory and get to work.
> 
> This game is far from over IMHO. Just keep hammering the Congresspeople.
> 
> 
> 
> But do they really care enough or understand this issue enough to bother doing that?
Click to expand...

That is where we come in. It is up to us, an engaged constituency, to educate them and light the fire under their rear ends.


----------



## TinCan782

Should this go here, or in the Brightline thread?

_*Meal service, two concepts*_

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/meal-service-two-concepts/

Sounds like nice service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Brightline is a totally different experience. I rode Brightline the first month they were in operation. They will, if they continue, show everyone what rail travel can be in the USA and how relevant it is. Their train stations resemble an airline terminal designed by IKEA. Their trains have modern touches like ramps that bridge the gap between the train and the platform (no more "mind the gap"). The interior of the cars are fine.. nothing overly special and actually, like Amtrak, a bit sterile (the best passenger train equipment in the USA, imho, is the Carolina owned equipment.).

My problem is.. you're comparing an in-station lounge with an on-board meal. Amtrak does pretty good with at-seat meals on the Acela trains, complete with silver ware, china, etc. And all without a chef! So it's very possible for Amtrak to provide a better product.


----------



## keelhauled

FrensicPic said:


> Should this go here, or in the Brightline thread?
> 
> _*Meal service, two concepts*_
> 
> https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/meal-service-two-concepts/
> 
> Sounds like nice service.


The "article" is 90% Brightline promotional material, 5% image captions, and 5% editorial commentary. Of course it sounds nice.


----------



## chrsjrcj

FrensicPic said:


> Should this go here, or in the Brightline thread?
> 
> _*Meal service, two concepts*_
> 
> https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/meal-service-two-concepts/
> 
> Sounds like nice service.


As crescent-zephyr said, it's comparing onboard meals to a station lounge. On the actual Brightline trains, you get a bag of chips. Of course, it's only a ~60 minute trip, so the food is almost unnecessary.


----------



## Maverickstation

. On ACELA First Class today. 
. The Menu has 3 versions that rotate, this would be a good menu for trains like the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited, as opposed to what they now offer. 2 LSA’s provided service to our sold out first class car.


----------



## Maverickstation

Here is the other part of the menu.


----------



## cpotisch

Maverickstation said:


> IMG_1535675125.612423.jpg. On ACELA First Class today.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675232.188692.jpg. The Menu has 3 versions that rotate, this would be a good menu for trains like the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited, as opposed to what they now offer. 2 LSA’s provided service to our sold out first class car.


From what I've heard though, the Acela First Class meals are pretty small. That might not be ideal for an overnight train.


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## Maverickstation

A bit off topic, but hats off to Frank, the Red Cap at South Station. A true pro !!


----------



## Maverickstation

cpotisch said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675125.612423.jpg. On ACELA First Class today.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675232.188692.jpg. The Menu has 3 versions that rotate, this would be a good menu for trains like the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited, as opposed to what they now offer. 2 LSA’s provided service to our sold out first class car.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've heard though, the Acela First Class meals are pretty small. That might not be ideal for an overnight train.
Click to expand...

. Judge for yourself, the ACELA First Class meals aren’t that small.


----------



## cpotisch

Maverickstation said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675125.612423.jpg. On ACELA First Class today.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675232.188692.jpg. The Menu has 3 versions that rotate, this would be a good menu for trains like the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited, as opposed to what they now offer. 2 LSA’s provided service to our sold out first class car.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've heard though, the Acela First Class meals are pretty small. That might not be ideal for an overnight train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Judge for yourself, the ACELA First Class meals aren’t that small.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535676113.947002.jpg
Click to expand...

Oh. not bad. I'd seen pictures and reviews of Acela First meals, and they were (or at least looked) a lot smaller.


----------



## seat38a

Maverickstation said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675125.612423.jpg. On ACELA First Class today.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675232.188692.jpg. The Menu has 3 versions that rotate, this would be a good menu for trains like the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited, as opposed to what they now offer. 2 LSA’s provided service to our sold out first class car.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've heard though, the Acela First Class meals are pretty small. That might not be ideal for an overnight train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Judge for yourself, the ACELA First Class meals aren’t that small.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535676113.947002.jpg
Click to expand...

Looks pretty similar to what I had on Via Rail Business.


----------



## cpotisch

Maverickstation said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675125.612423.jpg. On ACELA First Class today.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675232.188692.jpg. The Menu has 3 versions that rotate, this would be a good menu for trains like the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited, as opposed to what they now offer. 2 LSA’s provided service to our sold out first class car.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've heard though, the Acela First Class meals are pretty small. That might not be ideal for an overnight train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Judge for yourself, the ACELA First Class meals aren’t that small.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535676113.947002.jpg
Click to expand...

Is it good, though? (at least compared to the fare in conventional dining cars and/or the boxed meals)


----------



## jis

Yes it is as good as similar items served in the Dining Cars. In both places they are pre-plated things that are heated and served. Why would they be that different?

You really need to ride and experience things and then comment about it instead of regurgitating others opinions.


----------



## Maverickstation

seat38a said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675125.612423.jpg. On ACELA First Class today.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535675232.188692.jpg. The Menu has 3 versions that rotate, this would be a good menu for trains like the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited, as opposed to what they now offer. 2 LSA’s provided service to our sold out first class car.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I've heard though, the Acela First Class meals are pretty small. That might not be ideal for an overnight train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> . Judge for yourself, the ACELA First Class meals aren’t that small.
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1535676113.947002.jpg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looks pretty similar to what I had on Via Rail Business.
Click to expand...

. The concept is similar, but VIA Rails corridor business class is more expansive with the beverage trolley, and real hot towel service.


----------



## jis

But coming back to the topic - I was just looking at the bookings on the first and second run of the LSL from NYP starting this weekend, and bookings seem very healthy. Sleeper fare is upto $1100, Roomettes sold out. While ridership has been down over 10% for July, it will be interesting to see how quickly it recovers, and whether it recovers to pre NYP track work levels, in spite of the food service changes.

It would be also interesting to see what the consist looks like. Trying to serve 6 or 7 Coaches worth of passengers through half a Cafe/Lounge seems a bit of a stretch, now that the Diner is off limits to the Coach passengers. Ideally a full Diner Lite would seem to make sense in addition to the BC/Lounge, but probably won;t happen.

Also, the Amfleet IIs should now get restored to the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack. Lets see how that goes.


----------



## cpotisch

I’m sorry for asking a dumb question and for apparently posting way too much. Can we just move on from this and I’ll try my hardest to be better out that stuff in the future? Thanks.


----------



## Bob Dylan

cpotisch said:


> Im sorry for asking a dumb question and for apparently posting way too much. Can we just move on from this and Ill try my hardest to be better out that stuff in the future? Thanks.


You're not posting too much, it's just that your youthful enthusiasm sometimes causes you to hit "Send" too quickly!

Even we old farts make this mistake!


----------



## jis

The following info picked up from another forum regarding LSL's year over year ridership performance on YTD:



> March (6 Mo) .... Even
> April (7 Mo) ....-2 %
> May (8 Mo) .... -4 %
> June (9 Mo) .... - 8 %
> July (10 Mo) .... - 12 %


This with capacity west of Albany basically reduced by 33% for the duration of the outage at NYP, is not necessarily that horrible and could have been far worse.

Now let us see how it does in Sept and Oct. It is only then - looking at the Sleeper and Coach performance separately perhaps, that we can get a feel for the effect of the food service changes. At least for the Labior Day weekend the NY section loading appears to be close to sold out, for the portion of the weekend that it is running from/to New York.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Be interesting to see how many cars are been used on the LSL again. Did they bring back all the sleepers? How many coaches?


----------



## PRR 60

Several off-topic posts directed at a specific member were removed.


----------



## rrdude

Booked the Cap from WAS-TOL-ARB, on October 5th for Michigan-Maryland B1GTEN football game on the 6th. (Noon game, hope the Cap is not tooooo late!) Anyway, I'll be bringing:


My own _real_ cutlery
Linen tablecloth
Bud vase with carnation.
Likely some Sushi
Wine Glasses (plastic or backpacker)
Plates, I gotta snag some Plastic Amtrak dinner plates B4 I go. I"m not packing china plates.... not this time. (traveling solo)
If you are on that train, feel free to join me for dinner, community style. All told, the "extra" this stuff takes up is nothing, and I can still "feel" like I'm dining in style, even if I have to bring it myself. (did it before on the Palmetto)


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

What a wonderful idea!




I wish I could be on that train!

Maybe, when other people notice what you are doing, you will start a trend!


----------



## cpotisch

rrdude said:


> Booked the Cap from WAS-TOL-ARB, on October 5th for Michigan-Maryland B1GTEN football game on the 6th. (Noon game, hope the Cap is not tooooo late!) Anyway, I'll be bringing:
> 
> 
> My own _real_ cutlery
> Linen tablecloth
> Bud vase with carnation.
> Likely some Sushi
> Wine Glasses (plastic or backpacker)
> Plates, I gotta snag some Plastic Amtrak dinner plates B4 I go. I"m not packing china plates.... not this time. (traveling solo)
> If you are on that train, feel free to join me for dinner, community style. All told, the "extra" this stuff takes up is nothing, and I can still "feel" like I'm dining in style, even if I have to bring it myself. (did it before on the Palmetto)


Love it! I've always been tempted to bring onboard all the fixings that make for "fine dining", but the practical considerations of packing that stuff and possibly not being allowed to use it onboard, sort of won out against my temptation. Let us now how it goes!


----------



## Anderson

Due to an SCA telling me to just throw away the cutlery I got a few years ago (we got flatware but I think he autopiloted to us having gotten the plastic stuff) I could actually augment the above with a proper set of Amtrak cutlery.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I've seen SCA's fish out steak knives and then throw the rest of the metal flatware in the trash including the cloth napkins. I honestly cannot remember a time when they brought me anything other than metal utensils.


----------



## TiBike

Is this the approved practice, or just a lack of accountability?



Devil's Advocate said:


> I've seen SCA's fish out steak knives and then throw the rest of the metal flatware in the trash including the cloth napkins. I honestly cannot remember a time when they brought me anything other than metal utensils.


----------



## railiner

cpotisch said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Booked the Cap from WAS-TOL-ARB, on October 5th for Michigan-Maryland B1GTEN football game on the 6th. (Noon game, hope the Cap is not tooooo late!) Anyway, I'll be bringing:
> 
> 
> My own _real_ cutlery
> Linen tablecloth
> Bud vase with carnation.
> Likely some Sushi
> Wine Glasses (plastic or backpacker)
> Plates, I gotta snag some Plastic Amtrak dinner plates B4 I go. I"m not packing china plates.... not this time. (traveling solo)
> If you are on that train, feel free to join me for dinner, community style. All told, the "extra" this stuff takes up is nothing, and I can still "feel" like I'm dining in style, even if I have to bring it myself. (did it before on the Palmetto)
> 
> 
> 
> Love it! I've always been tempted to bring onboard all the fixings that make for "fine dining", but the practical considerations of packing that stuff and possibly not being allowed to use it onboard, sort of won out against my temptation. Let us now how it goes!
Click to expand...

Yeah.....I would be very curious as to the reaction you might get from the crew if you did all that....

I would imagine in a remaining full service diner, on a different train, it would not go over too well....


----------



## cpotisch

railiner said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Booked the Cap from WAS-TOL-ARB, on October 5th for Michigan-Maryland B1GTEN football game on the 6th. (Noon game, hope the Cap is not tooooo late!) Anyway, I'll be bringing:
> 
> 
> My own _real_ cutlery
> Linen tablecloth
> Bud vase with carnation.
> Likely some Sushi
> Wine Glasses (plastic or backpacker)
> Plates, I gotta snag some Plastic Amtrak dinner plates B4 I go. I"m not packing china plates.... not this time. (traveling solo)
> If you are on that train, feel free to join me for dinner, community style. All told, the "extra" this stuff takes up is nothing, and I can still "feel" like I'm dining in style, even if I have to bring it myself. (did it before on the Palmetto)
> 
> 
> 
> Love it! I've always been tempted to bring onboard all the fixings that make for "fine dining", but the practical considerations of packing that stuff and possibly not being allowed to use it onboard, sort of won out against my temptation. Let us now how it goes!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah.....I would be very curious as to the reaction you might get from the crew if you did all that....
> 
> I would imagine in a remaining full service diner, on a different train, it would not go over too well....
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's probably a violation of multiple health codes and Amtrak policy (namely bringing and consuming your own food in the dining car). On a "contemporary" train though, without full table service and boxed meals, it might be another story.


----------



## bretton88

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Booked the Cap from WAS-TOL-ARB, on October 5th for Michigan-Maryland B1GTEN football game on the 6th. (Noon game, hope the Cap is not tooooo late!) Anyway, I'll be bringing:
> 
> 
> My own _real_ cutlery
> Linen tablecloth
> Bud vase with carnation.
> Likely some Sushi
> Wine Glasses (plastic or backpacker)
> Plates, I gotta snag some Plastic Amtrak dinner plates B4 I go. I"m not packing china plates.... not this time. (traveling solo)
> If you are on that train, feel free to join me for dinner, community style. All told, the "extra" this stuff takes up is nothing, and I can still "feel" like I'm dining in style, even if I have to bring it myself. (did it before on the Palmetto)
> 
> 
> 
> Love it! I've always been tempted to bring onboard all the fixings that make for "fine dining", but the practical considerations of packing that stuff and possibly not being allowed to use it onboard, sort of won out against my temptation. Let us now how it goes!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah.....I would be very curious as to the reaction you might get from the crew if you did all that....I would imagine in a remaining full service diner, on a different train, it would not go over too well....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly. That's probably a violation of multiple health codes and Amtrak policy (namely bringing and consuming your own food in the dining car). On a "contemporary" train though, without full table service and boxed meals, it might be another story.
Click to expand...

Since the contemporary dining is technically in a lounge and not a diner, this is probably ok and not a violation.


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## PVD

Consuming your own food in many of the lounges is not permitted. It varies by route or location in a car, like an ssl, ok upstairs, not allowed downstairs where food is sold Amtrak website says:

You may bring your own food and beverages onboard for consumption at your seat or private Sleeping Car accommodations. However, you can only consume food and beverages purchased in Dining and Lounge Cars in those cars. Personal food and beverages are allowed in the upper level of Superliner Sightseer Lounges.

Service Manual is slightly different since it points out the primary exceptions

11. Non-Amtrak Food and Beverage (Non Alcohol)
a) May be consumed by passengers in the following
locations.
• Any Coach seat.
• Any Sleeping Car accommodation (both alcohol
and non-alcohol beverages permitted).
• Upper level of Superliner Lounge Cars.
• Acela Express equipment.
• Empire Service equipment.
• Northeast Regional Café Cars.
b) All other Food Service Cars are intended for the
consumption of only Amtrak provided meals,
snacks and beverages.


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## cpotisch

PVD said:


> However, you can only consume food and beverages purchased in Dining and Lounge Cars in those cars.


Wait, I thought you can consume stuff purchased onboard wherever you want (including alcoholic beverages)?


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## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, you can only consume food and beverages purchased in Dining and Lounge Cars in those cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, I thought you can consume stuff purchased onboard wherever you want (including alcoholic beverages)?
Click to expand...

You may only eat purchased food & drinks in the dining car & lounge car as in you cannot eat your personal food & drinks in these cars (though there are exceptions for the lounges).It’s not saying you can’t take purchased food & drinks to other cars.


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## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, you can only consume food and beverages purchased in Dining and Lounge Cars in those cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, I thought you can consume stuff purchased onboard wherever you want (including alcoholic beverages)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You may only eat purchased food & drinks in the dining car & lounge car as in you cannot eat your personal food & drinks in these cars (though there are exceptions for the lounges).It’s not saying you can’t take purchased food & drinks to other cars.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. Thanks.


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## GBNorman

It's been "a long long time" since I've been near an Acela, but I must wonder why assign, and pay, LSA's - a position that calls for having care, custody, and control of Amtrak funds - when supposedly the First Class car has no need for such?

Enquiring mind wants to know.


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## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> It's been "a long long time" since I've been near an Acela, but I must wonder why assign, and pay, LSA's - a position that calls for having care, custody, and control of Amtrak funds - when supposedly the First Class car has no need for such?
> 
> Enquiring mind wants to know.


I might be misunderstanding your question, but they need staff to provide meal service to First Class on Acela. How else would they do it?


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## GBNorman

cpotisch said:


> I might be misunderstanding your question, but they need staff to provide meal service to First Class on Acela. How else would they do it?


I believe there is a misunderstanding; for service of course, but Amtrak funds?
Possibly the mistake is mine in that the Job Description of an LSA calls for custody of any Amtrak accountable property, be it food or funds. I always thought there was a class of Service Attendant, for those positions not requiring custodianship of Amtrak funds.


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## OBS

GBNorman said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I might be misunderstanding your question, but they need staff to provide meal service to First Class on Acela. How else would they do it?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there is a misunderstanding; for service of course, but Amtrak funds?
> Possibly the mistake is mine in that the Job Description of an LSA calls for custody of any Amtrak accountable property, be it food or funds. I always thought there was a class of Service Attendant, for those positions not requiring custodianship of Amtrak funds.
Click to expand...

One could argue that the FC EIC needs to be able to complete the accounting paperwork. Also in the event of somewhat frequent service disruptions, you can borrow/transfer any member of the crew to another train as needed. finally, when push comes to shove and no LSA's are available, the assist position has indeed been filled with an SA as needed. On the other hand, with the minimal salary difference, Amtrak figures it isn't something they want to worry about....


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## AmtrakBlue

GBNorman said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I might be misunderstanding your question, but they need staff to provide meal service to First Class on Acela. How else would they do it?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there is a misunderstanding; for service of course, but Amtrak funds?
> Possibly the mistake is mine in that the Job Description of an LSA calls for custody of any Amtrak accountable property, be it food or funds. I always thought there was a class of Service Attendant, for those positions not requiring custodianship of Amtrak funds.
Click to expand...

It's my understanding that the LSA is also responsible for the stock, so even if the food is complimentary, the LSA still needs to account for what has been used/given to the pax and what remains at the end of their shift.


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## P42 AC/DC

Question about LSL 449, so coach and business class passengers get food a la carte from the split cafe/business? Are the meals for sleepers also prepared there as well? Just trying to get a sense of how busy it will be, etc.


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