# Changes to the Cardinal



## saxman (Apr 12, 2010)

OK, no one has posted about changed to the Cardinal except for a few blurbs in other threads.

So based on what a few other forum members have said, it looks like Amtrak is seriously considering making the Cardinal run daily and put Superliner equipment back on. Obviously this means no more direct service all the way to NYP, but hopefully that will be made up by the daily service.

Also heard they could possibly make St Louis or even Kansas City as the termination point for this train. After Indy, it would simply follow I-70 to STL.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 13, 2010)

I like the idea. Running a superliner train daily from WAS-STL would be a fantastic idea. Obviously the Hoosier State could still run daily from CHI-Indy (with thru cars from the WAS train).


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## ALC Rail Writer (Apr 13, 2010)

If it goes to KCY, you have a one-seat ride WAS-LAX if you put thru-cars on the Chief.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 13, 2010)

This will happen the same day it rains up from the ground rather than down from the sky.

Especially the through cars to LA.


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## NativeSon5859 (Apr 13, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> This will happen the same day it rains up from the ground rather than down from the sky.
> Especially the through cars to LA.


Quoting a line from "Dumb and Dumber" here:

So you're saying there's a chance? Yeah!


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## rrdude (Apr 13, 2010)

NativeSon5859 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > This will happen the same day it rains up from the ground rather than down from the sky.
> ...


Ever seen the Movie "Forest Gump"? Where Forest is slogging thru the swamps in Vietnam? Rained "up" then. Oh darn, THAT was a movie. I agree on the "one-seat to LAX" not likely, but St. Louis has a scintilla of a chance. They might surprise us.


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## Trogdor (Apr 13, 2010)

St. Louis has a chance (maybe a snowball's chance down under, but a chance nonetheless). Kansas City isn't really being considered.


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## VentureForth (Apr 13, 2010)

saxman said:


> OK, no one has posted about changed to the Cardinal except for a few blurbs in other threads.
> So based on what a few other forum members have said, it looks like Amtrak is seriously considering making the Cardinal run daily and put Superliner equipment back on. Obviously this means no more direct service all the way to NYP, but hopefully that will be made up by the daily service.
> 
> Also heard they could possibly make St Louis or even Kansas City as the termination point for this train. After Indy, it would simply follow I-70 to STL.


I can't imagine a terminal other than Chicago for the Cardinal. That's where all the staff, equipment and people are. Sure, it'd be nice to shave off the last few hundred miles and keep going West from Indy, but I can't imagine anyone seriously thinking about it.

I wish Amtrak would share the most popular city pairs sold. That would be some real data to work with.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2010)

That's right, STL only and not KCY, since KCY does not add any significant new city pair connectivity. The idea is to create better network connectivity. Of course there are always two possibilities, one is to let the Card run as is to CHI and introduce a daytime corridor-like train from Indy to STL connecting at both ends. The other is to run the Card to STL and run a connecting train to CHI from Indy. From what I heard at the NARP meeting it is the latter that is under more serious consideration.

Incidentally, since last October the Cardinal apparently has had higher ridership per run than the Cap (so if GML had his way he would probably scrap the Cap ASAP  ), which quite surprised me when it was pointed out to me. Of course, on the CHI east coast market it is the LSL which is the stellar ridership per run performer though the Cap is allegedly a better financial performer because its operating costs are dramatically lower than that for the LSL. On the Atlantic Coast market it is the Silver Star, which again to my utmost surprise, actually beat the CZ in riders per run! This is of course explained by winter being the low season for the CZ and the high season for Star, but still....


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## Chris J. (Apr 13, 2010)

VentureForth said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > OK, no one has posted about changed to the Cardinal except for a few blurbs in other threads.
> ...


If I've got this right..

It would give St. Louis a direct train to Washington DC (and one-change to the east coast). If they could get the connections at St. Louis right then a whole bunch of passengers South and West of STL can bypass Chicago if they're heading to the east coast.

Indy has would keep the daily Chicago service it has now, and gain daily service to St.L and DC (but lose tri-weekly service to New York) Cincinnati (and everywhere else between Indy and Charlottesville) would lose it's tri-weekly direct service to Chicago and NY, but would gain daily to St. Louis via Indy and DC.

It would cut out the trip into and out of Chicago between St. L and DC - that would be a big win for the network.

Would it require a major change to the Eagle schedule to provide a northbound Eagle to westbound Cardinal and eastbound Cardinal to southbound Eagle connection at St. Louis? I guess the Eagle schedule could all be changed around soon with the Eagle / Sunset plans.


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## MrFSS (Apr 13, 2010)

How are the tracks between IND and STL? Ready to go?


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## jis (Apr 13, 2010)

Chris J. said:


> Would it require a major change to the Eagle schedule to provide a northbound Eagle to westbound Cardinal and eastbound Cardinal to southbound Eagle connection at St. Louis? I guess the Eagle schedule could all be changed around soon with the Eagle / Sunset plans.


Actually more important would be the connection between the westbound Card and the southbound Eagle and vice versa, and apparently that will be available. This add many more city pairs than the other way. Besides it might be easier to retime the last Lincoln Service to provide the northbound connection and the first Lincoln Service to provide the southbound to eastbound connection.


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## Chris J. (Apr 13, 2010)

jis said:


> Chris J. said:
> 
> 
> > Would it require a major change to the Eagle schedule to provide a northbound Eagle to westbound Cardinal and eastbound Cardinal to southbound Eagle connection at St. Louis? I guess the Eagle schedule could all be changed around soon with the Eagle / Sunset plans.
> ...


I think that was the one I was thinking of; but not the one I wrote :lol:


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## saxman (Apr 13, 2010)

Chris J. said:


> If I've got this right..
> It would give St. Louis a direct train to Washington DC (and one-change to the east coast). If they could get the connections at St. Louis right then a whole bunch of passengers South and West of STL can bypass Chicago if they're heading to the east coast.


Yes, a direct STL to WAS train.



> Indy has would keep the daily Chicago service it has now, and gain daily service to St.L and DC (but lose tri-weekly service to New York) Cincinnati (and everywhere else between Indy and Charlottesville) would lose it's tri-weekly direct service to Chicago and NY, but would gain daily to St. Louis via Indy and DC.


Indy would have daily service to Chicago, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and all points to Charlottesville. It would have daily connections to New York via Washington. So yes, its losing tri-weekly service, but getting daily service instead. 



> Would it require a major change to the Eagle schedule to provide a northbound Eagle to westbound Cardinal and eastbound Cardinal to southbound Eagle connection at St. Louis? I guess the Eagle schedule could all be changed around soon with the Eagle / Sunset plans.


No major changes needed to any other schedules. The northbound Texas Eagle arrives into STL early in the morning. With a mid-afternoon of the supposed new Cardinal, you'd still get the same schedule and arrive into IND late a night.

Going westbound, the current Cardinal arrives into IND early in the morning. I'm guessing another 5 hours from IND to STL, so about a noonish arrival into STL. Plenty of time to catch the southbound Texas Eagle which departs in the evening.

This also gives you time to catch the Missouri River Runner to KCY and then catch the SWC to ABQ and LAX. They would probably have to tweak the MRR schedule going east though. That way you can get off train 4 and be able to get on the morning MRR train. But all this is if you are trying to get to a city between STL, IND and WAS. You'll still have connections in Chicago or the Capitol and Lake Shore.

Again this is all talk, but according to others, Amtrak is seriously considering this move.


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## wayman (Apr 13, 2010)

saxman said:


> Again this is all talk, but according to others, Amtrak is seriously considering this move.


Another advantage, not yet mentioned: it reduces the load on Chicago by a bit. And given how full the Chicago platforms are, how full the Chicago waiting rooms are, how busy the maintenance crews and station agent are ... that's going to make life for everyone in Chicago (especially passengers) a little nicer.


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## MrFSS (Apr 13, 2010)

Any ideas on what cities between IND and STL would receive a service stop


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## afigg (Apr 13, 2010)

Looking at the map and taking a quick look at the schedules, I can see why Amtrak would consider this change if the line from Indy to St. Louis is in good shape and available. What would be interesting to learn is how many people take the Cardinal from WAS or from stations on the NEC all the way to Chicago compared to how many take the Capital Limited from WAS to CHI. If you are in DC and want to take the train to Chicago, you are likely only to take the Cardinal if you are not in a hurry and want to take a different scenic route.

Questions or points about this possible end station move:

1. Are there new station stops in IN or IL along the Indy to St. Louis corridor that Amtrak would add? If I am seeing the correct rail line on Google Earth, looks like it would run through Terra Haute with Indiana State which could get some ridership in both directions.

2. Given poor on-time performance of the Cardinal, does Amtrak lose ridership for people going from Indy northward to Chicago because people don't want to wait on the Cardinal coming in on those 3 days? By making the Hoosier State a daily train and decoupled from the Cardinal, the train can still head north from Indy on the days when the Cardinal is running way behind. More reliable service increases ridership. Also, by providing a stand-alone daily corridor service, Amtrak could work with Indiana to get them to support adding additional daily service to the route or if the Chicago-Indy corridor gets some HSR funding in the next go-around.

3. With the big HSR stimulus bucks being spent on upgrading the Chicago to St Louis line, train ridership in St. Louis is going to get a big boost and turn St. Louis into more of a mini-hub. Could get increased passenger traffic with people going from St. Louis to Indy. Of if the schedules work, people would go from, say, Jefferson City, MO or Kansas City to Indy or stops in between.

Any clue as to what the run time from Indy to St. Louis would be?


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## deimos (Apr 13, 2010)

In general - I like the concept. It provides new options for cross country trips (not to mention an excuse to visit St. Louis). As Mr. FSS inquired - are the tracks able to support service? I wonder if Amtrak will set up promotions for the new service - that is of course if it takes shape.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 13, 2010)

These changes sound like a good idea. Extending the train to St. Louis opens up new routings, connections. Making the Hoosier State a daily train allows it to run on a consistent timetable. Using Superliners, especially a sightseer lounge would be good on such a scenic route. Breaking the direct run to New York might hurt ridership somewhat, but there would certainly be enough connecting trains available. Operating daily is always better than three times a week.

So, this seems like a winning plan. Does anybody know how serious this talk is? How long would it take to implement such a change? After all, we've talking about the Texas Eagle/Sunset changes for what seem like a year with no definite decision yet and that doesn't invovle new trackage. Would CSX be open to this? (daily running, Indy-St. Louis routing)


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## Mackensen (Apr 13, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> Any ideas on what cities between IND and STL would receive a service stop


The last train on the route (the _National Limited_) stopped in Terra Haute and Effingham. Effingham's still in use, but I have clue what condition the tracks are in. It took about 4 1/2 hours in the 1970s.


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## MrFSS (Apr 13, 2010)

Couple of pictures I took about 1954 in Cincinnati Union Terminal. What a great train!


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## Larry H. (Apr 13, 2010)

I have long lobbied for a St. Louis run going east. This is not a bad idea, combines a scenic route with something that provides more services and the total irritation of having to sit in chicago every time you want to go east. I rode the original amtrak version of the National Limited. It was dreary at best with very limited amenities. Oddly as bad as it was I recall that even though we had coach seats to Indianapolis the train was sold out and the conductor put us in a bedroom for the trip! It must not have been as soar a loser as some seem to recall. The main problem was the track and run times. Hopefully if they do this they will improve the cardinal route tracks eventually as I have heard it is some of the worst riding of all routes out east.

As to the great photos of the train in the station in 1954. Can't help but be impressed with the external cleanliness and general pride the train appears to have been maintained with. I recall the B & O running a lot of ads in the ending days trying to win passengers to their trains, but it proved in vain eventually. I can remember the ads for movies being shown on board. Something way before its time it seemed.

As has been said, the connections are a great benefit. Not so far mentioned is the possibility of it once again opening New Orleans and other points along the City of New Orleans route to a direct rail connection to St. Louis. It would only be of much benefit however if it could be scheduled to not cause excessive layovers in Effingham.


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## Amtrak839 (Apr 13, 2010)

Looking at some YouTube railfan videos from Greencastle, IN (between Indianapolis and Terre Haute), it seems that CSX has significant intermodal traffic through there, which is good news. This stack train here is moving at a pretty good pace:


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## Bill Haithcoat (Apr 13, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> Couple of pictures I took about 1954 in Cincinnati Union Terminal. What a great train!



Wow, thanks for the shots.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2010)

Just before discontinuance, here is what the timetable was for the _National limited_ between Indy and Kansas City:


```
11:25a		  Indianapolis, IN		 6:00p

12:50p		  Terre Haute, IN		  4:35p

1:55p		   Effingham, IL			3:30p

4:10p		   St. Louis, MO			1:35p
4:35p									1:10p

5:04p		   Kikrwood MO			  12:43p
6:53p		   Jefferson City, MO	   10:49a
8:03p		   Sedalia, MO			  9:39a
8:36p		   Warrensberg, MO		  9:03a

10:05p		  Kansas City, MO		  7:45a
```
Transposing on today's Card timetable, it would seem that the westbound would run about 6 hours earlier and the eastbound about a shade under 6 hours later. And of course it'd run only upto Saint Louis and not to Kansas City, allowing a same day turn of the equipment at STL.


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## Larry H. (Apr 13, 2010)

If it were six hours earlier each way it might make for a fair connection to the northbound CN or some of the daily carbondale trains. Same on return and would allow for a st. Louis round trip from effingham if I am reading it right?


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Apr 13, 2010)

jis said:


> Just before discontinuance, here is what the timetable was for the _National limited_ between Indy and Kansas City:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Note the Kansas City times: These made for good Southwest Chief, or whatever its name was then, connections. Unfortunately, due to the condition of the track under Penn Central the westbound frequently did not make the connection. Rode one time between Indianapollis and Washington DC. The track west of Pittsburg was somewhere between rough and downright scarey.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> If it were six hours earlier each way it might make for a fair connection to the northbound CN or some of the daily carbondale trains. Same on return and would allow for a st. Louis round trip from effingham if I am reading it right?


Yes, you'd get a convenient day trip to STL from Indy, Terre Haute and Effingham, if it ran 6 hours earlier westbound and 6 hours later eastbound. There will be reasonable connection from the northbound CONO towards STL and sort of OK from STL to southbound CONO. The connection to and from the TE going to and coming from the south would be rather long at STL. And the connection from/to the CONO coming from/going to the south, towards WAS would be exceedingly long at Effingham. Unfortunately you can't make all of those convenient. Moving the timings of Card to match the old National Limited times would generally improve most connections at STL and Effingham, but would lose the day trip feature from Indy to STL and back.


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## jis (Apr 13, 2010)

Guest_George Harris_* said:


> Note the Kansas City times: These made for good Southwest Chief, or whatever its name was then, connections. Unfortunately, due to the condition of the track under Penn Central the westbound frequently did not make the connection. Rode one time between Indianapollis and Washington DC. The track west of Pittsburg was somewhere between rough and downright scarey.


That is not at all surprising, since for a period the National Limited carried a through NYP - LAX sleeper that was transferred to/from the Super Chief/El Cap, and later Southwest Limited at KCY.


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## Chris J. (Apr 13, 2010)

Mackensen said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > Any ideas on what cities between IND and STL would receive a service stop
> ...


If a train could do it in 4 1/2 hrs that sounds like pretty good going. Google maps reckons 4hrs 20 on I-70 without stopping.

Did it stop at the same station in Effingham? It looks like the Amtrak station is on a north-south line but St.Louis to Indy would be on an west-east one


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## Larry H. (Apr 13, 2010)

Chris J. said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> > MrFSS said:
> ...


The station is on a cross track and one line from St. Louis and the other from Chicago. The station sits in the wedge between them so that it faces either line. Same nice old brick station still in use in Effingham.


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## abcnews (Apr 13, 2010)

Funny, I always see the Capital Limited as a B & O train, so I had sort of expected a return to St. Louis via the Cap Limited. Never occurred to me that the Cardinal would go in that direction.

I think it's feasible that we might actually see this happen, simply to offer a Mid America train, which seems to be lacking. Chicago is more than saturated with trains - but no (US 50 / I-64/ I-70) mid US train.

I would bet it is not Superliner - and it could easily stay a NY train. After all - this would give excellent rail service from the NorthEast to St. Louis and Mid America. My guess is a daily Crescent/Star consist. Just makes more sense when it comes to available equipment and a New York hub. And the NY base would indeed offer many more riders than an origin in DC. I mean... there are, like 30 or so million people living between NY and Washington, and this would give them direct (thru) service to the mid section of the country. I would guess a daily Silver Star / Crescent consist, based in NY. But what do I know...


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## jis (Apr 13, 2010)

abcnews said:


> I would bet it is not Superliner - and it could easily stay a NY train. After all - this would give excellent rail service from the NorthEast to St. Louis and Mid America.


What is being considered right now is using Superliners. There is not enough single level equipment available to pull off making the Card daily. And besides those Viewliners on the Card are needed on the Florida trains.


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## abcnews (Apr 13, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> Couple of pictures I took about 1954 in Cincinnati Union Terminal. What a great train!


Wow! Gorgeous photos. I would have never thought that these shots were from 1954. The quality is superb.

Thanks!

Mike


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2010)

Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....


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## bretton88 (Apr 13, 2010)

Guest said:


> Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....


As much as I would love this (I live in Omaha), It will never happen, no facilities in Omaha for a turnaround and the schedule would be too unwieldy. The best I can hope for is a OMA-KCY-STL train someday, or maybe just a OMA-KCY train that connects with a MORR. I know MO is studying it, so maybe it will happen in my lifetime. I know Nebraska or Iowa wouldn't support said train though.


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## D T Nelson (Apr 13, 2010)

I freely admit that I don't know all about the various existing trackage, and its condition, but I look at a map and wonder, if you are routing the Cardinal to St Louis, why not route it from Cincinnati to Louisville and Evansville, skipping Indianapolis? Neither Louisville nor Evansville has rail service now.

Okay, looking at schedules, I can answer my own question: Because then you'd need to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati, and you'd probably need another trainset to do that. (But, looking at the schedule again, maybe not. How long does it take to turn [clean, service, etc.] a train? And maybe it would only require servicing once a day.)


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Apr 13, 2010)

Cincinatti - Louisville - Evansville - St. Louis would be somewhere abouve 10 hours in run time, even if best pre-amtrak times could be achieved.


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## Trogdor (Apr 13, 2010)

D T Nelson said:


> I freely admit that I don't know all about the various existing trackage, and its condition, but I look at a map and wonder, if you are routing the Cardinal to St Louis, why not route it from Cincinnati to Louisville and Evansville, skipping Indianapolis? Neither Louisville nor Evansville has rail service now.
> Okay, looking at schedules, I can answer my own question: Because then you'd need to extend the Hoosier State to Cincinnati, and you'd probably need another trainset to do that. (But, looking at the schedule again, maybe not. How long does it take to turn [clean, service, etc.] a train? And maybe it would only require servicing once a day.)


For one, you'd gain no connections by doing so.

The tracks from Indy to St. Louis are in good condition, on a busy CSX mainline, with freight trains running at 60 mph. Passenger trains could probably do 70.


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## MattW (Apr 13, 2010)

What's the fascination with "turning" a train? Are the seats non-turnable? Would it be too much work to have the crew flip the seats at one or more termini? The Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer all seem to do ok with a cab car at one end.


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## Trogdor (Apr 13, 2010)

MattW said:


> What's the fascination with "turning" a train? Are the seats non-turnable? Would it be too much work to have the crew flip the seats at one or more termini? The Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer all seem to do ok with a cab car at one end.


The train needs to be cleaned, serviced, and inspected. Minor repairs need to be made. Running the train around a loop or a wye is generally the least of the tasks involved in "turning" a train.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 13, 2010)

This was not even mentioned at the town hall meeting at the beginning of March in Chicago. The general attitude then was that there would be no new service or routes. How did this come to be in the last few weeks. I sure hope it happens, but this to me is completely from left based on what I heard at the meeting. Where would this equipment come from?


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## Montanan (Apr 13, 2010)

Steve4031 said:


> This was not even mentioned at the town hall meeting at the beginning of March in Chicago. The general attitude then was that there would be no new service or routes. How did this come to be in the last few weeks. I sure hope it happens, but this to me is completely from left based on what I heard at the meeting. Where would this equipment come from?


This is one of the expansion possibilities mentioned in the current issue of the NARP newsletter ... along with the restoration of the Desert Wind!


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## jis (Apr 13, 2010)

MattW said:


> What's the fascination with "turning" a train? Are the seats non-turnable? Would it be too much work to have the crew flip the seats at one or more termini? The Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer all seem to do ok with a cab car at one end.


Turning a long distance train that has sleepers and diner involves more than flipping seats. It in addition needs servicing the holding tanks, restocking material for sleepers and diner and niceties like cleaning the windows vacuuming the floors etc. And then there is usually the daily mechanical inspection thing that also has to be carried out on each car. Typically LD trains have to be Y-ed also since they do not have cab cars. One also has to leave some slop for possible delays in arrival of the incoming. All in all something like 6 hours seems to be a good practical number for doing all that.

A corridor train (of which Michigan and Illinois service trains, California trains, Heartland Flyer are examples) can indeed be turned in much shorter time by proverbially flipping the seats, since they get serviced once a day when they get to the end of their day's run. Some Acelas for example get turned around in Washington DC in platform essentially in an hour. OTOH Regionals have to be backed out and Y-ed in Washington before they can go on a return run, so they take longer to turn.


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## railiner (Apr 14, 2010)

With the current state of things, wouldn't it still be faster to get from WAS to STL via the Capitol connecting in CHI, then extending the Cardinal to St. Louis?


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## Chris J. (Apr 14, 2010)

Guest said:


> Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....


Why stop there? Continue on to Denver, Salt Lake City and up to Seattle


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## kentuckian1977 (Apr 14, 2010)

Hadn't had a chance to check out the board in a couple of days, so hadn't seen this yet. This would be GREAT news if it happens. I have said forever that I wish the Cardinal was daily, and had the Superliners back. A daily train opens up a lot more convenience in terms of connections, and quick weekend railfan trips, obviously. And, the idea of a reroute to St. Louis is something I'd never heard proposed before, but is certainly a great idea as well. Hope this happens.


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## Chris J. (Apr 14, 2010)

railiner said:


> With the current state of things, wouldn't it still be faster to get from WAS to STL via the Capitol connecting in CHI, then extending the Cardinal to St. Louis?


I'd estimate the new Cardinal would 23hrs from St. Louis to DC (allowing 5 hrs St. Louis to Indy and 18hrs for the current Cardinal schedule from Indy to Washington), compared to currently 28hrs via Chicago, including a layover of over 4 hours. Even if you reduced the layover I don't think it would be quicker via Chicago.


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## Chris J. (Apr 14, 2010)

wayman said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > Again this is all talk, but according to others, Amtrak is seriously considering this move.
> ...


I doubt Chicago would get much quieter. I think the Lake Shore and Capitol seem to sell out a lot so I suspect you'd just replace a bunch of passengers making Eagle to NEC connections with different bunch of passengers who currently aren't there at all because the trains east of Chicago are full.


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## wayman (Apr 14, 2010)

Chris J. said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > saxman said:
> ...


How does subtracting a train from Chicago not make Chicago quieter? The Capitol and the Lake Shore are full now, and will continue to be full; they're not adding passengers because of this. And the track platform issues, and the maintenance workload, are absolutely going to be both lighter and more regular (same long-distance turning and maintenance every day rather than having this extra train to deal with on certain days and not others).


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## jis (Apr 14, 2010)

Chris J. said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Why stop at St Louis or KC? Keep on rolling on down the line over other trackage, all the way to Omaha....
> ...


Why stop at St. Louis? Because we do not have enough cars on hand to deploy the number of consists that will be needed to go any further than STL.


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## Larry H. (Apr 14, 2010)

railiner said:


> With the current state of things, wouldn't it still be faster to get from WAS to STL via the Capitol connecting in CHI, then extending the Cardinal to St. Louis?


Depends on which train you take, but the layover in chicago is from where I live usually lengthly at best plus there is the extra fare charge just to get to chicago from St. Louis or other points south where a direct route would most likely be more timely as well as perhaps some cheaper. One of the factors that play in our decisions to take a trip anymore is the boring 5 hour ride to chicago only to spend up to 7 hours or more in chicago killing time waiting for a train to board. Not exactly user friendly.


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## Chris J. (Apr 14, 2010)

wayman said:


> Chris J. said:
> 
> 
> > wayman said:
> ...


I think Chicago would still have the same number of trains, just it would see a daily Hoosier State instead of a Cardinal on some days. That would I think take less time to turn around than the Cardinal. How the ridership might look I'm not sure - passengers on the Cardinal route east of Indy have a change to get to Chicago (unless they do some switching in Indy) but they can now get there daily; changes generally cause a decrease in riders, daily service an increase. Daily might also spread the load over the week a bit better.

I was mainly thinking of a passenger from the Eagle who were going to DC. Currently they are a passenger in Chicago, and take a seat (or bed) on the Capitol to go east. If the Cardinal gets re-routed so they can take that from St. Louis instead that's one less person in Chicago, and one less seat used on the Capitol, but I think that just means "one more space for someone else". That said, I don't know how many passengers could avoid Chicago on a new Cardinal routing.


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## Chris J. (Apr 14, 2010)

jis said:


> Chris J. said:
> 
> 
> > Guest said:
> ...


Yes; I was taking guest's point and running with it .. to the end of the line :lol:


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## Larry H. (Apr 14, 2010)

Basically to me anytime you can open a new destination with a direct service that gives many more possibilities for building ridership is a good one. The biggest flaw in the system is that there is very little system currently. Granted we need new cars to do it but if we had them I have no doubt that if even the basic 1970"s system were returned in the most part, passenger loads would be off the charts. Anyone should realize that having lines that only go a few places and often with extensive inconvenience to do so is by no means an idea situation. It kind of like saying St. Louis shouldn't have any planes going anywhere, nor should most other mid sized cities in the country, that the only way would be to go to Chicago or New York, or a few other major hubs if you wanted to fly anywhere. That is a no brainer from the start, but its how we have been told to accept rail service. If this administration is serious about using rail to encourage people out of their cars, more lines to more places instead of increasing the speed a few miles an hour on the same lines would benefit by far more passengers in a positive way.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2010)

Chris J. said:


> I was mainly thinking of a passenger from the Eagle who were going to DC. Currently they are a passenger in Chicago, and take a seat (or bed) on the Capitol to go east. If the Cardinal gets re-routed so they can take that from St. Louis instead that's one less person in Chicago, and one less seat used on the Capitol, but I think that just means "one more space for someone else". That said, I don't know how many passengers could avoid Chicago on a new Cardinal routing.


Same holds true for CONO passengers who can transfer at Effingham instead of schlepping over to Chicago. I am sure a few more seats and berths will open up both on the Cap and the LSL.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 14, 2010)

Montanan said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > This was not even mentioned at the town hall meeting at the beginning of March in Chicago. The general attitude then was that there would be no new service or routes. How did this come to be in the last few weeks. I sure hope it happens, but this to me is completely from left based on what I heard at the meeting. Where would this equipment come from?
> ...



Thanks. This is exciting. I hope it works out.


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## saxman (Apr 14, 2010)

Also heard a baggage car would come back as well. Based on past timetables I have, checked baggage was available at Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Huntington, Charleston, Prince, Charlottesville, and Alexandria. This was the 2002 TT which was not long before the train went to single level cars.

Amazing how one little tweak in the routing can gain so many connections. And it's probably not going to cost hardly anything to do so. Yay for more revenue!


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## jis (Apr 14, 2010)

saxman said:


> Amazing how one little tweak in the routing can gain so many connections. And it's probably not going to cost hardly anything to do so. Yay for more revenue!


One of the cost elements that is not fully determined yet is what CSX is going to charge for track usage between Indy and STL. There will be some additional cost too to set up STL to do end point servicing of an LD consist. Crew cost will be a wash compared to going to Chicago, except that it will be 7 days a week instead of 3, but presumably there will be considerable added revenue from those extra runs too. I don;t know how the incremental costs and revenues balance out.


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## RRrich (Apr 14, 2010)

Since coming to Amtrak a few years ago I have been bothered by two things.

Firstly, most every train trip starts with going to CHI - I know that years ago CHI beat out STL as the USA's Midwest hub, but gee although the pizza is outstanding that is just not enough reason to keep going to CHI

Secondly, in STL the word CARDINAL is closely linked to STL but the Amtrak Cardinal doesn't come here. Whats up with that?

I have been reading this thread with lots of hope


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## Rob_C (Apr 14, 2010)

Wow! To think the Cardinal might actually become an important link in the national system rather than just a slower train between destinations already served! LA to DC more direct via the Cardinal. Can't wait!

Rob


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## Larry H. (Apr 14, 2010)

Rob_C said:


> Wow! To think the Cardinal might actually become an important link in the national system rather than just a slower train between destinations already served! LA to DC more direct via the Cardinal. Can't wait!
> Rob


Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. I scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.


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## wayman (Apr 14, 2010)

RRrich said:


> Secondly, in STL the word CARDINAL is closely linked to STL but the Amtrak Cardinal doesn't come here. Whats up with that?


The Cardinal's name will well-serve it as the train to St Louis, but it's also a great name for the current route. The cardinal is the state bird of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, _and_ Virginia.


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## cpamtfan (Apr 14, 2010)

wayman said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> > Secondly, in STL the word CARDINAL is closely linked to STL but the Amtrak Cardinal doesn't come here. Whats up with that?
> ...



Copy cats...


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## jis (Apr 14, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. It scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.


The plan was presented by _Amtrak Product Development Chief _Brian Rosenwald. He discussed this as part of a general discussion of potential improvements under consideration for the company’s overnight trains, at a Mar. 20 _NARP _membership meeting at Washington Union Station. So it is not like _NARP _dreamed it up. It came from _Amtrak_. Other items presented by him in the same session were:


Daily _Sunset/Eagle_ Service Los Angeles - San Antonio - Chicago with connecting train San Antonio - New Orleans

Performance improvement plans for five LD trains viz _California Zephyr, Capitol Ltd., Cardinal, Sunset Ltd. _and _Texas Eagle_

Restoration of the _Desert Wind_

Returning the _Sunset Limited_ to Phoenix in collaboration with the State of Arizona

Earlier departure of the _Capitol Limited_ out of Chicago


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## bretton88 (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm happy about this. This is forward thinking by Amtrak. They are taking what they have and improving it within their limited means finally. These are creative ideas that can only improve the final product (especially if they can get the SL into Phoenix). The only bummer for me, is that I was looking forward to taking the Cardinal sometime, but having it go from St Louis makes it difficult. Oh well, one small sacrifice for the better cause. On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.


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## leemell (Apr 14, 2010)

jis said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. It scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.
> ...


Was there any time frame discussed for these changes? Especially the Cardinal as I am scheduled to take it late in the year.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 14, 2010)

jis said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > Now if only the people at amtrak would see it that way. To often they turn up their noses at things that everyone but them sees as a real need. It scares me that this is an idea generated on the Narp site. Maybe there is really something behind it, but they have pushed for years with no luck to expand service to more points, but haven't gotten much positive reaction from the powers that be. I would love to see this happen, but I won't hold my breath.
> ...


OK, I was wondering where all this talk was coming from. If Amtrak is seriously "thinking outside the box" on these issues, then let's hope they go for it. If they get Arizona to pay for reopening the line west from Phoenix, I would consider that a minor miracle.


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## nferr (Apr 14, 2010)

This is one of Amtrak's better ideas that I've heard lately. Makes a lot of sense. Hopefully they can get it done.


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## willyvee (Apr 14, 2010)

bretton88 said:


> On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.


The unique thing about the Desert Wind is that it provides connections from LA to Vegas *and Salt Lake and points east all the way to Chicago.* Yes there are a few private companies looking to run service from SoCal to Vegas, but not nearly to the extent of the Desert Wind.


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## Rob_C (Apr 14, 2010)

If it terminates in St. Louis, then I would hope there would be a connecting MORR service to Kansas City making a connection with the SWC possible. Otherwise some of the important connectivity would be lost. Of course it also depends what's going on with the HF if it goes all the way to KCY or terminates somewhere earlier say Newton. Is the HF extension just a non-starter at this point or is it factoring somewhere in the mix?


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## Larry H. (Apr 14, 2010)

Little off the topic but just running the river cites trains on to centralia like they did for some time and then down to carbondale or just terminating at centralia they would give much of the midwest a direct route to memphis, and new orleans without have to travel a days time out of the way. The connection is only about 70 miles, the detour to make the same trip is probably over 700 miles. Now that would be forward thinking. They did it for a while and then dropped it but I think the time is ripe to encourage passengers once again.

Another factor here is the rail fares to chicago are in the 70.00 range many days where as the trip from st. louis to centralia was more like 20.00 or so if I am guessing right. A big savings in time an money.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2010)

Rob_C said:


> If it terminates in St. Louis, then I would hope there would be a connecting MORR service to Kansas City making a connection with the SWC possible.


If one assumes that the Card continues to run in the current slot between WAS and Indy then yes, one will be able to connect from it to the SWC using a MORR and from SWC to it using an MORR.


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## Michael061282 (Apr 14, 2010)

Why not a through coach/sleeper at St. Louis from the Texas Eagle/Sunset


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## domefoamer (Apr 14, 2010)

It's fun to sit and cook up new routes like this, with some slim chance that they may actually be implemented. Taking a WAS-STL route through WVA makes so much sense, providing a new path through the heart of Ohio Valley while maintaining essential service to the hills and hollers of Appalachia. Losing NYC service is trivial, since there are so many fast ways to get uo there on rails from DC.

My take on this is a little different, since last month I was a first-time passenger on No. 50, back on March 26. It was by far the worst Amtrak trip of my life (though I can claim much less mileage than most of you here). The Cardinal was packed with 80 extra pax from a cancelled Capital Limited. No extra staff or dining facilities were included in this last-minute development, so the train's poor Cafe Car staff, both of them, were overwhelmed from the start. In the first three hours out of Chicago, said the cook/clerk, they sold more food than a normal 24-hour trip. The lounge/dining car truly was a Lining Car, filled with pax lining up for up to an hour for dinner. We had 260 passengers leaving CHI: that meant each of us had a 1-in-15 chance of scoring a diner seat at any time during a meal. For about half the ride, the cafe car was closed down or sold out.

Back in my coach, the passengers in the seat ahead of me stayed up all night, watching laptop videos and carrying on long, loud conversations. Sure, it was the social magic of train travel, an instant overnight community, but it should have happened in the lounge car. But that was locked, of course, after the serving hours. It was a miserable night for me, and a hungover morning.

I'm trying to make a long story shorter here; the longer version will show up soon as a trip report. My point is simply that the Cardinal really needs to get Superliners back, or at least a separate lounge car and full diner. The current version has been pared down and cheapened so much that it's barely worth the misery. Today's Cardinal consist has no real public space for talkative night owls. It lacks sufficient dining space for a family picnic. It's equipped no better than an afternoon scenic excursion ride. It needs help, quick! It ambles through an incredibly scenic route, but I couldn't recommended it to anyone I know. I'd like to ride it again, but just not that train. The best thing I can say about the Cardinal is that it's so bad, any small improvement made would be a big improvement.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 14, 2010)

Michael061282 said:


> Why not a through coach/sleeper at St. Louis from the Texas Eagle/Sunset


The ideas behind a lot of this stuff is to maximize usage of equipment, an attempt to improve efficiencies without either over-stressing equipment or decreasing spare availability. Amtrak's system is stretched tighter than a violin. Cars for such dreams do not exist.

I know for a solid fact that there are tons of projects Amtrak would like to undertake (mostly involving toying with through cars) if they had the equipment to do them.


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## leemell (Apr 15, 2010)

willyvee said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> > On the DW, I doubt Amtrak will restart it if a private company (and we have a few, apparently) is willing to run it.
> ...


Assuming Desertxpress does what it says, there will be a train every 30 minutes. I think that might be more that any Desert Wind.


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## willyvee (Apr 15, 2010)

leemell said:


> willyvee said:
> 
> 
> > bretton88 said:
> ...


Will DesertXpress run all the way to Chicago, or even Salt Lake?


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## leemell (Apr 15, 2010)

willyvee said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > willyvee said:
> ...



By extent I though you meant amount (number of trains) of service from So Cal to Vegas.


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## greatcats (Apr 15, 2010)

domefoamer said:


> It's fun to sit and cook up new routes like this, with some slim chance that they may actually be implemented. Taking a WAS-STL route through WVA makes so much sense, providing a new path through the heart of Ohio Valley while maintaining essential service to the hills and hollers of Appalachia. Losing NYC service is trivial, since there are so many fast ways to get uo there on rails from DC.
> My take on this is a little different, since last month I was a first-time passenger on No. 50, back on March 26. It was by far the worst Amtrak trip of my life (though I can claim much less mileage than most of you here). The Cardinal was packed with 80 extra pax from a cancelled Capital Limited. No extra staff or dining facilities were included in this last-minute development, so the train's poor Cafe Car staff, both of them, were overwhelmed from the start. In the first three hours out of Chicago, said the cook/clerk, they sold more food than a normal 24-hour trip. The lounge/dining car truly was a Lining Car, filled with pax lining up for up to an hour for dinner. We had 260 passengers leaving CHI: that meant each of us had a 1-in-15 chance of scoring a diner seat at any time during a meal. For about half the ride, the cafe car was closed down or sold out.
> 
> Back in my coach, the passengers in the seat ahead of me stayed up all night, watching laptop videos and carrying on long, loud conversations. Sure, it was the social magic of train travel, an instant overnight community, but it should have happened in the lounge car. But that was locked, of course, after the serving hours. It was a miserable night for me, and a hungover morning.
> ...


Your trip on the Cardinal does indeed sound like a horror show. I think it was irresponsble of Amtrak to overload with so many passengers that the staff could not cope with the situation. as you will see in my Travelogue report ( Flagstaff-Washington, DC 0 i had a pretty good trip on the Cardinal. I knew what to expect in terms of the consist - my sleeper was fine except for a lukeewarm shower and the food was acceptable. Obviously the train needs to be upgraded and run daily, but apparently there is insuffiecient equipment at this time to pull that off, but they are working on new ideas.


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## DAWall (Apr 16, 2010)

I think this is a fantastic idea, it makes so much sense that it's almost scary, that Amtrak came up with the idea on there own. But a couple of things have gotten lost, as to why this makes so much sense.

A. If the Cardinal goes daily to Chicago, What happens to the Hoosier State? This is Amtraks primary hospital train between Chi and Beech Grove. While I would love to see another daily train between Chicago and Indianapolis, I can't see Amtrak putting two daily trains over the same route (at least not this one). So now, how do you get the hospital cars to Beech Grove. 1. Special Moves? That's not economical to do. 2. Add the hospital cars to the back of the Cardinal. Then you incur the cost's of switching out the car in Indianapolis, and you still have to pay to get them from Indianapolis Union Station out to Beech Grove.

So what do you do?

B. If you make the Cardinal Daily to St Louis, then the Hoosier State becomes the daily service to Chicago from Indianapolis. Amtrak retains its primary hospital train, from Beech Grove to Chicago and now it operates daily, you have no additional switching costs since the train is made up in Beech Grove, and heads directly to Ind Union Station. The Cardinal to St Louis then gives Midwesterners more direct access to southwest and west coast, and maybe New Orleans (and Florida if the CONO connection actually happens) The tracks from Indianapolis to St Louis are in excellent condition, this is part of the former NYC main from St Louis to Cleveland. Most of it is double tracked, and if Stack trains are already doing 60 MPH, then there is no reason to think the Cardinal wouldn't be allowed to do 70, or maybe 79, but that might entail retiming some grade crossing approach's. A little history, the National Limited (Amtraks) used the Pennsylvania tracks between Indianapolis, and Terre Haute. those tracks were abandoned in the early 80's shortly after the National Limited was canceled, and Conrail then moved all it's traffic over to the near parallel NYC line. The NYC (CSX) line to St Louis is far from being at capacity, I know this from talking with CSX workers that work at Avon Yard just west of Indianapolis. I don't think Amtrak would have any problem getting premission to operate over this section of track.

I hope this is one idea that Amtrak follows through with. It's so simple I don't know why, no one has thought about it sooner. Its a win win. And if they do some minor upgrades to the Hoosier State i.e checked baggage and maybe food service. Us folks midwest folks will have a much more user friendly Amtrak with far more connections, and for the most important part. Not a lot of additional cost.


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## MrFSS (Apr 16, 2010)

DAWall said:


> I think this is a fantastic idea, it makes so much sense that it's almost scary, that Amtrak came up with the idea on there own. But a couple of things have gotten lost, as to why this makes so much sense.
> A. If the Cardinal goes daily to Chicago, What happens to the Hoosier State? This is Amtraks primary hospital train between Chi and Beech Grove. While I would love to see another daily train between Chicago and Indianapolis, I can't see Amtrak putting two daily trains over the same route (at least not this one). So now, how do you get the hospital cars to Beech Grove. 1. Special Moves? That's not economical to do. 2. Add the hospital cars to the back of the Cardinal. Then you incur the cost's of switching out the car in Indianapolis, and you still have to pay to get them from Indianapolis Union Station out to Beech Grove.
> 
> So what do you do?
> ...


Amtrak uses *The Cardinal* to move cars to/from Beech Grove - not a problem.


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## DaveKCMO (Apr 16, 2010)

23 hours to DC though amazing scenery sounds great! i would probably use this often to get to indy and cincy, too. would this make a connection with CONO possible? if so, i would also use this for a trip to memphis and NOLA.


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## Lake Country (Apr 16, 2010)

Trogdor said:


> D T Nelson said:
> 
> 
> > I freely admit that I don't know all about the various existing trackage, and its condition, but I look at a map and wonder, if you are routing the Cardinal to St Louis, why not route it from Cincinnati to Louisville and Evansville, skipping Indianapolis? Neither Louisville nor Evansville has rail service now.
> ...


All the MWHSR plans have a Chicago to Cincy route planned that may run as many as 6 trains per day, even now the Hoosier would be well served to extend beyond Indy and become a Chi-Cincy city pair with Indy and Lafayette station stops. By routing the Cardinal from Cincy-L'vile-E'ville-St. L you would connect some regional cities that are not served at all. And still be able to connect with the CONO in Centralia.


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## Larry H. (Apr 16, 2010)

Lake Country said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > D T Nelson said:
> ...



The connection to the City is at Effingham, a stop farther north from Centralia. That station is on a wedge sort of setting and serves both tracks when they were in passenger use. I wish it did go though Centralia and to St. Louis as it would give me direct service east and west, something that would be nice. Actually the town I live in Odin, is on the City route and also has a cross over for the CSX, going east and west, not sure where it ends up on the eastern end?

Either way we could get one of the three daily trains north to catch the Cardinal if it stops in Effingham, that would be such a blessing over having to go to Chicago every time you want to go east. I only hope they treat the new train better than they did the National Limited which ran with a very poor selection of cars in comparison to wonderful left over heritage cars that were gracing the trains out of chicago at the time. I still contend that people appreciate and vote with their patronage a nicer train than a very basic and skimpy version. I know I do.


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## kentuckian1977 (Apr 17, 2010)

Has anyone heard anything regarding a possible time line on when this might happen? When might enough Superliners be available? I'm hoping they put the Superliners back on and make the Cardinal a daily ASAP, even if they do it before the St. Louis reroute (which I agree is a great idea) is possible.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 17, 2010)

jpnberea said:


> Has anyone heard anything regarding a possible time line on when this might happen? When might enough Superliners be available? I'm hoping they put the Superliners back on and make the Cardinal a daily ASAP, even if they do it before the St. Louis reroute (which I agree is a great idea) is possible.


Right now it seems to be in the "thinking" stage which could last, O I don't know, a decade or so! LOL. Seriously, I wouldn't try to buy a ticket yet. Look at the Texas Eagle/Sunset changes. That's been talked about for a year or so, or maybe more, and there's not an official start date for that yet. Anything involving railroad changes moves at a snail's pace.


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## Rafi (Apr 17, 2010)

I've kept quiet on this thread so far, mainly because the information about the possible change has been fairly accurate. But let's not jump ahead here and assume this is a done deal. Amtrak is in the middle of preparing ridership and revenue projections for a NUMBER of Cardinal adjustments (not all of which take the train to St. Louis). Once those are compiled, a recommendation will be made from the Product Development group, and the it gets run up the flagpole. As a matter of perspective, there are plenty of other cases where plans that made a ton of sense to many never got actually implemented for a variety of reasons, the most obvious being the Crescent Star, of course.

So let's calm down until we see something official. Folks on this board know that I've been championing at St. Louis routing of the Cardinal for YEARS now, so I can't even begin to express my hopes for this change, but frankly, it's a long shot. Not impossible, but let's just say that there's a lot of skepticism until those numbers come in. There are those that believe that Chicago is the ONLY hub, the center of the universe, and that a daily Cardinal to Chicago would have better ridership than a daily Cardinal to St. Louis. Of course, splitting the consist in Indy addresses that (turn half of the train into the Hoosier State without requiring a cross platform transfer), but that's not really the point. To make a change this big at Amtrak often takes a ton of meetings and years of planning (witness how long the Texas Eagle/Sunset plan has taken). To top it off, there's no real TEMPO equivalent (with big-time power players) jockeying for this move, and Indiana is a notoriously difficult Government Affairs partner with whom to work. So if this goes through, it will be a badge of achievement on Amtrak's lapel, because frankly, these sorts of changes usually happen with state or local community leaders leading the charge with checkbooks in hand. In this case, we have some very vocal Cardinal groups doing their best to bend ears, but nothing (as far as I know) has been taken to Indiana or Missouri to investigate partnering possibilities yet.

Bottom line: it's very, very, very early.

Rafi


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## Larry H. (Apr 17, 2010)

And at least 35 years too late!


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## DaveKCMO (Apr 17, 2010)

so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013, what would this mean for the hoosier state? would indiana have to pay for it regardless of this change? i know that mandate will also affect the empire service.


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## afigg (Apr 17, 2010)

Rafi said:


> So let's calm down until we see something official. Folks on this board know that I've been championing at St. Louis routing of the Cardinal for YEARS now, so I can't even begin to express my hopes for this change, but frankly, it's a long shot. Not impossible, but let's just say that there's a lot of skepticism until those numbers come in. There are those that believe that Chicago is the ONLY hub, the center of the universe, and that a daily Cardinal to Chicago would have better ridership than a daily Cardinal to St. Louis. Of course, splitting the consist in Indy addresses that (turn half of the train into the Hoosier State without requiring a cross platform transfer), but that's not really the point. To make a change this big at Amtrak often takes a ton of meetings and years of planning (witness how long the Texas Eagle/Sunset plan has taken). To top it off, there's no real TEMPO equivalent (with big-time power players) jockeying for this move, and Indiana is a notoriously difficult Government Affairs partner with whom to work. So if this goes through, it will be a badge of achievement on Amtrak's lapel, because frankly, these sorts of changes usually happen with state or local community leaders leading the charge with checkbooks in hand. In this case, we have some very vocal Cardinal groups doing their best to bend ears, but nothing (as far as I know) has been taken to Indiana or Missouri to investigate partnering possibilities yet.


It appears to be safe to say that any shift of the Cardinal to St. Louis is some ways off, if it does happen. For one thing, is there a old station in Terre Haute that could be refurbished? Or would Amtrak have to start from scratch there? Which could take years after Amtrak decides that changing the destination to St. Louis is a good idea by the time they get through the local political process, do the studies and design to build a station, then actually get the funding, put out for bids, award the contracts and then finally build a station. Would Amtrak switch the service to St. Louis without having a station ready at Terre Haute? Is the station at Effingham ready to support operations on the CSX line? Or would a new platform and other work be needed? If there is one thing I get from reading these rail forms, is that Amtrak does not move quickly - for a whole bunch of reasons.

Wonder how much the recent HSR stimulus grant of $1.1 billion to the Chicago-St. Louis corridor and $31 million to Missouri for the St. Louis-Kansas City route is a factor in Amtrak now considering this shift? Ridership was up 11.6% on the Lincoln service and 15.8% on the River Runner service for the first 6 months of FY10 with even bigger increases in March 2010 compared to March 2009. As the run times improve on the Chicago-St. Louis corridor and then 2 additional daily trains are added, passenger traffic to and from St. Louis will significantly increase. That will make St. Louis a more viable stop for the Cardinal with all the additional advantages of the connections across the mid-West that have been discussed here. If there is funding awarded to the Chicago-Indianapolis corridor in the next go-around from the HSR FY10 $2.5 billion funding, that would expand the Hoosier state service possibly with increased daily frequency which might tilt the decision to switch the Cardinal to St. Louis.


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## Larry H. (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't see much reason to think they worry about the condition of the stations. Have you ever seen the Mattoon station? Talk about a disgrace both from the train point of view as well as street level? Effingham appears to have a rather stable station that most likely could almost immediately start being used. And really why would it matter at all, Centralia torn down their station and the train just stopped at the road crossing without and ticket agent or station for years till the city of Centralia at least built a tiny replacement for the old one which they foolishly tore down. Not sure about Terre Haute, I get that way now and then but haven't really looked at the station there. But from the experience with Centralia I don't see why they would have to have a working station at all since they didn't have one here.


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## MattW (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm not an expert so take this for what it is, but I did some Google-Mapping of Terre Haute, and it looks like the rail line goes right along the northern border of the University there. I didn't find an obvious station, but if one were to placed near the University, you'd probably get A LOT of college kids using the train to Indianapolis or Chicago.


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## JayPea (Apr 17, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> I don't see much reason to think they worry about the condition of the stations. Have you ever seen the Mattoon station? Talk about a disgrace both from the train point of view as well as street level?


Larry, I've seen the Mattoon station and it is exactly that, a disgrace. Heck, if I lived near there I'd at least volunteer my time to at least make it look presentable. It might take awhile, but...............


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## Larry H. (Apr 17, 2010)

JayPea said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see much reason to think they worry about the condition of the stations. Have you ever seen the Mattoon station? Talk about a disgrace both from the train point of view as well as street level?
> ...


A couple years ago by now I wrote a letter to the Editor about the view from amtrak of their city. They agreed that the thing was a mess but claimed some kind of commission was looking into it, but from what I have seen other trips nothing much has been done, however I haven't been up there the past year I think.


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## Larry H. (Apr 17, 2010)

MattW said:


> I'm not an expert so take this for what it is, but I did some Google-Mapping of Terre Haute, and it looks like the rail line goes right along the northern border of the University there. I didn't find an obvious station, but if one were to placed near the University, you'd probably get A LOT of college kids using the train to Indianapolis or Chicago.


Yes there is a large private college right two blocks from the main down town area and it helps to keep the old part of the city a bit more active than some. I am not sure either as to where the east/west tracks go though town but I have a feeling its close to that downtown location. Your right should be a good student option for transportation as is the illinois local trains.


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## Rafi (Apr 17, 2010)

Re: Terre Haute, everything I'm hearing is that a new platform/station structure would need to be created. But, in my opinion, that the station would be a hit with college kids is an understatement. As far as Effingham goes, some platform reconditioning is in order, but for the most part, Effingham is ready to roll and the Cardinal would connect quite conveniently with the CoNOL based on the concept schedules.

Rafi


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## Larry H. (Apr 17, 2010)

Rafi said:


> Re: Terre Haute, everything I'm hearing is that a new platform/station structure would need to be created. But, in my opinion, that the station would be a hit with college kids is an understatement. As far as Effingham goes, some platform reconditioning is in order, but for the most part, Effingham is ready to roll and the Cardinal would connect quite conveniently with the CoNOL based on the concept schedules.
> Rafi


That would be a joy to those of us tired of 30 years of sitting in chicago to go east, its one of the big turn offs of the trip. If they were really forward thinking that idea of a though car to connect with the Southwest Chief or Texas Eagle would be a terrific idea I would think. But the train really needs to be a forward looking consist or its just another limited ridership string of cars to me.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 17, 2010)

The big hurdle to this isn't stations or cars, I don't think. Its politics.


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## Larry H. (Apr 17, 2010)

As usual..


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## john charron (Apr 17, 2010)

St. Louis is a good termanal these days

and the Cardinal to St. Louis would link it to

a fine intermodal station that conntects bus, train, air and metrolink all together. You don't need a car to get to the basics in

st. Louis Anymore.

cardinals games, hotels business, courts all within walink distance or on the metrolink. People form NYc or Chicago can get around without a car.

the station is modern clean and attractive.


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## varnish (Apr 18, 2010)

Chris J. said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> > MrFSS said:
> ...


Effingham's station is at the diamond xng CN/CSX....serves both, potentially, as it did '' in the old days'' of PRR/IC

Cheers


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## Montanan (Apr 18, 2010)

The old Terre Haute Amtrak station was at 700 North 7th. Looking at Google Maps, the site now appears to be occupied by a modern apartment building ... presumably geared towards students at Indiana State University. You can see what might be remnants of the old platform along the north side of the tracks there.


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## alanh (Apr 18, 2010)

From looking at an old topo map, the New York Central station appears to have been where the parking lot on the SW corner is -- they may actually be parking on the station foundation.

The Union Station (1893-1960) was on the SW corner of what's now Spruce and 10th St. More info on that station here. Map showing old track routes


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## Joel N. Weber II (Apr 18, 2010)

DaveKCMO said:


> so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013


Would that mean that Amtrak would be paying the states that the Acela runs through for the Acela's operating profit instead of using the Acela operating profit to help pay for the long distance network?


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## jis (Apr 18, 2010)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> DaveKCMO said:
> 
> 
> > so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013
> ...


The so called mandate does not include the Northeast Corridor.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 18, 2010)

DaveKCMO said:


> so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013, what would this mean for the hoosier state? would indiana have to pay for it regardless of this change? i know that mandate will also affect the empire service.


I think so, unless the Hoosier State is replaced by a specific connecting train to the Cardinal in which case it might be considered a "stub train" and as such part of the national network. It clearly is not a corridor!


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## bretton88 (Apr 18, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> DaveKCMO said:
> 
> 
> > so with the mandate for amtrak to give up all routes to states that are less than 750 miles in length by 2013, what would this mean for the hoosier state? would indiana have to pay for it regardless of this change? i know that mandate will also affect the empire service.
> ...


And Indiana has shown very little inclination to support it. So if, somehow, the Hoosier state somehow doesn't get "grandfathered" into the national system, it will probably die. Unless a miracle happens in Indianapolis.


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## jis (Apr 19, 2010)

bretton88 said:


> And Indiana has shown very little inclination to support it. So if, somehow, the Hoosier state somehow doesn't get "grandfathered" into the national system, it will probably die. Unless a miracle happens in Indianapolis.


The Hoosier State will survive using whatever sweet interpretation of mandates is necessary. It is the hospital train for moving equipment from Chicago to Beech Grove and back.


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## Rafi (Apr 19, 2010)

jis said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> > And Indiana has shown very little inclination to support it. So if, somehow, the Hoosier state somehow doesn't get "grandfathered" into the national system, it will probably die. Unless a miracle happens in Indianapolis.
> ...


Agreed. All of the proposed changes I've heard about include retaining the Hoosier State in some way.

Rafi


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## PaulM (Apr 23, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> ... river cites trains on to centralia like they did for some time and then down to carbondale or just terminating at centralia they would give much of the midwest a direct route to memphis, and new orleans without have to travel a days time out of the way.


Ah, the River Cities. My all time favorite train ride and by far the oddest consist - a heritage sleeper and dome coach. I was the only passenger on the St. Louis - Centralia segment.

I suspect it was one of the few trains whose discontinuance was due primarily to a lack of customers. Actually, I believe it was planned only to run during the year of the NO world's fair, but lasted two years.


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## shadrach (Jun 19, 2010)

!hi! New member and first post!

The talk of the Cardinal terminating in St. Louis has me all a flutter. I live in St. Louis and Love Amtrak.(this got me to register.)

I've always wanted the National Limited to return but this is just as good!

Any updates? What's the reality of this happening? Any one know? Thanks for your reply.

cheers!


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2010)

shadrach said:


> !hi! New member and first post!
> The talk of the Cardinal terminating in St. Louis has me all a flutter. I live in St. Louis and Love Amtrak.(this got me to register.)
> 
> I've always wanted the National Limited to return but this is just as good!
> ...


This is just a talking point @ this time, more likely it will go back to Superliners when Beech grove finishes the wreck rehabs, then run WAS-CHI!

Perhaps they could run a stub train from Indianapolis to STL with single level equipment IF Ind and Missouri were willing to pay the freight, Amtrak is not going to pay fopr any more state trains!


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## kentuckian1977 (Jun 20, 2010)

Guest said:


> shadrach said:
> 
> 
> > !hi! New member and first post!
> ...


I hope they make it daily and with Superliners again.


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## Larry H. (Jun 20, 2010)

Guest said:


> shadrach said:
> 
> 
> > !hi! New member and first post!
> ...


I still don't understand how returning a service that amtrak inherited and dropped which goes from St. Louis To Washington DC could be considered a "state train".. If it is then as I suspect the whole concept of a national rail service is totally flawed and inept at best.


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## Eric S (Jun 20, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> I still don't understand how returning a service that amtrak inherited and dropped which goes from St. Louis To Washington DC could be considered a "state train".. If it is then as I suspect the whole concept of a national rail service is totally flawed and inept at best.


I think Guest meant that an IND-STL train, not a WAS-STL Cardinal, would be considered a "state train" unless I misunderstood. However, I agree that the distinction between national and "state" or "regional" trains can be difficult to make at times and tends to be detrimental to the development of new (or restored) trains.


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## Larry H. (Jun 20, 2010)

Eric S said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > I still don't understand how returning a service that amtrak inherited and dropped which goes from St. Louis To Washington DC could be considered a "state train".. If it is then as I suspect the whole concept of a national rail service is totally flawed and inept at best.
> ...


Just curious, is the Boston leg of the Lake Shore a "state train"? What ever happened to trains that branched out to serve several similar end points but were of the same train.. Hardly state trains in my humble opinion, but then as I said the whole concept has be bastardized by the powers that be to the point that a national rail service is almost a joke..


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2010)

If the Cardinal goes Superliner, doesn't that mean they'll be taking the sets from the Cap?


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## jis (Jun 20, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> If the Cardinal goes Superliner, doesn't that mean they'll be taking the sets from the Cap?


Well, there are a few parts to the story.

Part 1 is same day turn for Cap consist in Washington DC, thus releasing one Cap consist, which effectively can be split up to form 2 Card consists. That would be sufficient to convert the Card on its thrice weekly (actually even 4 times a week) schedule to Supers serving WAS - CHI, or even WAS - STL.

Part 1a. If two additional coaches and sleepers can be found then there could be 4 times a week service CHI-WAS as well as CHI - STL by transferring 1 coach and 1 sleeper to a IND - CHI train (851/852?) at IND from a WAS - STL train (51/52?).

Part 2 Find another consist from Beech Grove and elsewhere to fill in the remaining 3 days left unserved by Part 1 to make it a daily through service either to CHI or STL, but not both.

Part 2a Find 3 more sleepers and 3 more Coaches and a coach and a sleeper could then be transferred from 51/52 to 851/852 at IND to provide daily through CHI - WAS service too.

Since 851/852 have to act as a hospital train anyway, it would make sense to keep them as is as a IND - CHI train connecting to 51/52 CHI - STL train. should 51/52 become a WAS - STL train that is.

It all depends on how much equipment can be scoured up

This is my understanding from a quick back of the envelope scribbling, and of course I could have missed something, which I am sure some astute observer on this board will correct.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2010)

So then you keep the Cap super liner but then you only have two sets, that's stretching it pretty thin, even for Amtrak...


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## jis (Jun 20, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> So then you keep the Cap super liner but then you only have two sets, that's stretching it pretty thin, even for Amtrak...


That may very well be why this won't happen. But that would also prove that Amtrak is unable to do what railways elsewhere in the world routinely do for a train with a running time of 16 to 18 hours.

Naturally there would have to be some spares available to substitute for an occasional bad ordered car. But that you have to have anyway.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2010)

This sounds like it will end with a canceled train becoming commonplace, if one of these are hopelessly delayed...


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## jis (Jun 20, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> This sounds like it will end with a canceled train becoming commonplace, if one of these are hopelessly delayed...


Schedule reliability or lack thereof is indeed a serious issue and could very well be the reason that this will not happen.


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## Eric S (Jun 20, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Larry H. said:
> ...


To the best of my knowledge, the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited is not a "state train" (almost positive it is not subsidized by Massachuetts), just part of the Lake Shore Limited, a train which is part of the national system. I suppose if the Cardinal operated with a Chicago section (WAS-CHI) and a St. Louis section (WAS-STL), with the train splitting/joining in IND, then neither section would be a "state train" requiring state/regional funding.


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## John (Jun 27, 2010)

I see the Cardinal added Check baggage again.


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## chertling (Jun 28, 2010)

Senator Robert Byrd, D-WV passed away this morning. As I am sure you are all aware, the Cardinal was the *ONLY* Congressionally mandated train in Amtrak's network, due in large part to Byrd's clout in the Senate. Given the fact that the Cardinal is already, in many ways, the mistreated stepchild of Amtrak's Long Distance trains, how do you think this impacts the future of the Cardinal???


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## Donctor (Jun 28, 2010)

chertling said:


> Senator Robert Byrd, D-WV passed away this morning. As I am sure you are all aware, the Cardinal was the *ONLY* Congressionally mandated train in Amtrak's network, due in large part to Byrd's clout in the Senate. Given the fact that the Cardinal is already, in many ways, the mistreated stepchild of Amtrak's Long Distance trains, how do you think this impacts the future of the Cardinal???


I think the Cardinal will make unplanned stops to weep and compose itself.


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## dlagrua (Jun 28, 2010)

I have been following this post with great interest. I have my doubts about all of the ideas presented. First off Amtrak has NO Superliners available to build a new Cardinal train that originates in DC. Secondly the purchase of new Superliners is not funded nor is there any proposal before congress to do so.

I can believe that with the increase in ridership we will see more refurbished cars; mainly baggage cars being and diners being added. I can also believe that Amtrak will finally get approval to replace some of the old Viewliner trains but its a slow process.

As for new routes, the question must be asked; where is the equipment going to come from? The only one that can be added (reinstated) is the Sunset Limited from NOL to Miami. All Amtrak would need to do is re-open stations and run the existing train Eastward to Fl.


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## Trogdor (Jun 29, 2010)

Actually, depending on what your priorities are (i.e. what kind of spare ratio you want, and whether you want to forego increasing capacity on other trains), you could find the Superliners to run the Cardinal 3x/week right now. One sleeper, a CCC, and two coaches would just about equal the train's current capacity (and would result in an increase in sleeper capacity).

Also, there aren't any "Viewliner trains" right now, only Viewliner sleepers mixed in with other single-level equipment. Plus, the Viewliners are the newest long-distance equipment currently in service, and thus would be the last to be replaced.


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## Donctor (Jun 29, 2010)

Trogdor has already said much of what I was thinking, though I do have a few comments:



dlagrua said:


> I have been following this post with great interest. I have my doubts about all of the ideas presented. First off Amtrak has NO Superliners available to build a new Cardinal train that originates in DC. Secondly the purchase of new Superliners is not funded nor is there any proposal before congress to do so.


Amtrak does _not_ have "NO Superliners available to build a new Cardinal train that originates in DC." The equipment exists. Whether this is the best use for it, I cannot comment.



dlagrua said:


> I can believe that with the increase in ridership we will see more refurbished cars; mainly baggage cars being and diners being added. I can also believe that Amtrak will finally get approval to replace some of the old Viewliner trains but its a slow process.


There will not be refurbished baggage cars. Amtrak is attempting to procure new ones. There aren't single-level diners to be refurbished. There are 25 in the fleet, and after doing some stretching, Amtrak now schedules 15 daily. The cars are simply too old. Amtrak can spend all its money on refurbishing these cars, but there's not much that can be done except to rebuild the cars, which isn't happening. Hence, the inclusion of single-level diners in Amtrak's next equipment order.

I don't understand how this would be separate from replacing "some of the old Viewliner trains," though you imply that it would be.

The Viewliners, as Trogdor pointed out, are the newest rolling stock in the fleet (minus the sets).



dlagrua said:


> As for new routes, the question must be asked; where is the equipment going to come from? The only one that can be added (reinstated) is the Sunset Limited from NOL to Miami. All Amtrak would need to do is re-open stations and run the existing train Eastward to Fl.


The equipment would come from the yards. There are enough cars in the fleet, though assigning them to the Cardinal would reduce the spare ratio, as Trogdor stated.

Yes, the NOL-ORL could be restored without requiring additional equipment.


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## jis (Jun 29, 2010)

Amtking said:


> The equipment would come from the yards. There are enough cars in the fleet, though assigning them to the Cardinal would reduce the spare ratio, as Trogdor stated.
> 
> Yes, the NOL-ORL could be restored without requiring additional equipment.


Suffice it to say that there are not enough cars available at the moment to doall of:

1. Daily Texas Eagle + SAS - NOL day train.

2. NOL - ORL

3. Daily Cardinal using Superliners.

So one has to pick and choose.

My guess is that NOL - ORL won't happen unless some state funding materializes or some targeted funding materializes from Congress.

I agree with Amtking that dlagrua is simply wrong in stating that there are no Superliners available to make the Cardinal daily originating a Washington DC at one and and at Chicago or St. Louis at the other end. Amtking is correct in stating that it will likely stretch availability requirements to almost the breaking point though. It will all depend on how many servicable Superliners Amtrak will be able to field each day after all the rebuilds are done.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 30, 2010)

Robert Byrd died yesterday morning. I have the odd feeling that the Cardinal will die with him.


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## Donctor (Jun 30, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Robert Byrd died yesterday morning. I have the odd feeling that the Cardinal will die with him.


Me too. Then again, I was *sure* I was going to win the lottery yesterday, despite not having purchased any tickets.


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