# 6 hour delay between cities 200 miles apart is preposterous!



## iliketrains (Mar 23, 2021)

I read this on the Amtrak Alerts site:

*Sunset Limited Train 1 that departed New Orleans (NOL) on 3/22 is delayed arriving into San Antonio (SAS) due to UP freight interference east of San Antonio (SAS). Currently operating approx *_*6 hr 20 min late.*

It's interesting to note that the train arrived in Houston on time but was 6 hours and 20 minutes late arriving at its next station which is only about 200 miles away._

A 6-hour delay because of freight interference!!!! From the outside looking in, it appears that UP is purposefully forcing Amtrak to be late. It's been mentioned in this forum that legally UP is supposed to prioritize Amtrak trains but does not. Maybe it's time something is done to force UP to prioritize Amtrak trains that are running a certain amount of time behind schedule. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that a train with people on board was forced to sit idle for 6 hours! I would like to see The Biden administration fix this. The alert does not say there was an equipment issue, an accident, a car on the tracks, a person on the tracks, nor an onboard medical emergency, none of those. It simply says freight interference. Let that sink in.


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## Chatter163 (Mar 23, 2021)

This has been a problem for decades, especially on the _Sunset Limited_. A regrettable situation, to be sure, but nothing new or breaking enough to require multiple exclamation points.


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## iliketrains (Mar 23, 2021)

Chatter163 said:


> This has been a problem for decades, especially on the _Sunset Limited_. A regrettable situation, to be sure, but nothing new or breaking enough to require multiple exclamation points.



That is my point. Let's get this changed. Decades-long problem needs to be fixed. It's time for us rail travelers to stop accepting this. Yes, it does require multiple exclamation points!!!


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## MARC Rider (Mar 23, 2021)

This happens everywhere. Let me tell you about the Northeast Regional (#67) that was 6 hours late because the HHP-8 decided to have a software malfunction between Route 128 and Providence. No freight interference there. Or a Carolinian that was 6 hours late into Baltimore because a storm knocked a tree on the tracks somewhere around Quantico. (OK, in that case, not only did they seem to let us sit while the freight trains had priority, we sat while other Amtrak trains had priority. They even sent 66 north out of Washington before us, and 66 makes a few stops before Baltimore, whereas the Carolinian doesn't, so what should have been a 30 minute trip from Washington to Baltimore took over an hour because of interference from another Amtrak train.  Most of my other NEC delays, when they happen are under an hour, but an hour delay for a 1 hour 10 minute Baltimore - Philly ride is the proportional equivalent of a 15 hour delay on the Capitol, DC to Chicago, and I've never had anything that bad on the Capitol. I recently endured a 2 hour delay on the NEC NYO - BAL, and, would you believe it, it was freight interference! (A CSX train derailed on the NEC in the Bronx.) As I wrote at the time, not only does CSX delay Amtrak trains on their tracks, they delay Amtrak trains on Amtrak's tracks.


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## Exvalley (Mar 23, 2021)

It's not clear to me if the delay was attributable to a failure to prioritize Amtrak. It's possible that the tracks were blocked, weather or not Amtrak was given priority. I am not familiar enough with the tracks in that area to know one way or the other.


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## iliketrains (Mar 23, 2021)

I am going to write my US congressperson and my US senators. My letter alone won't help but if other rail travelers do the same maybe a change will happen.


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## IndyLions (Mar 23, 2021)

There’s no question that Amtrak needs to get their house in order when it comes to equipment maintenance, reliability, etc. And unavoidable delays do happen that are not Amtrak nor the Host Railroad’s fault.

But the OP is right when he says enough is enough. It needs to get fixed during this administration, or it may never be fixed.


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## jis (Mar 23, 2021)

Do we know any details about exactly what happened in this particular case? Or are we just flailing because we are pissed off in general having been triggered by this event?


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## Trogdor (Mar 23, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> It's not clear to me if the delay was attributable to a failure to prioritize Amtrak. It's possible that the tracks were blocked, weather or not Amtrak was given priority. I am not familiar enough with the tracks in that area to know one way or the other.



According to a post I read on FB (don't remember which group), there was a disabled freight train. IIRC, much of the route is single track (don't know about the specific point where this supposed breakdown occurred), so if a train breaks down, you've got nowhere to go.


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## frequentflyer (Mar 23, 2021)

Go register for Trainmon5 software and see what the dispatcher sees. West of SAT there is a lot of single line track and whole lot of three mile long container trains coming from LA. The trains are too long for the sidings, so somebody has to wait, (hint" JB Hunt is paying more to UP than Amtrak) (UP is contributing more to politicians than Amtrak )pure physics. The SL refuels at the fuel pad east of SAT, it may had to wait in a long line for its turn to the refuel.

UP does a descent job with moving the Cali Zephr, Coast Starlate, STL-CHI trains and the California local trains in NoCal with its hyper sensitive politicians looking on. But in this PSR environment, unless the government is going to pony up money for a new main, there are some places in the country that were constrained before Precision Scheduled Railroading and are more constrained now.

Is it frustrating? Of course, but unless the 3 Trillion dollars have something in for the freight railroads, sadly expect more of the same.


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## Exvalley (Mar 23, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> Go register for Trainmon5 software and see what the dispatcher sees.


Registrations are closed until at least April 5th. Grr...


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## HammerJack (Mar 23, 2021)

The funny thing is that even with this monster delay, Amtrak predicts an on-time arrival in LAX! The Sunset has SO much schedule padding.


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## me_little_me (Mar 23, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> This happens everywhere. Let me tell you about the Northeast Regional (#67) that was 6 hours late because the HHP-8 decided to have a software malfunction between Route 128 and Providence. No freight interference there. Or a Carolinian that was 6 hours late into Baltimore because a storm knocked a tree on the tracks somewhere around Quantico. (OK, in that case, not only did they seem to let us sit while the freight trains had priority, we sat while other Amtrak trains had priority. They even sent 66 north out of Washington before us, and 66 makes a few stops before Baltimore, whereas the Carolinian doesn't, so what should have been a 30 minute trip from Washington to Baltimore took over an hour because of interference from another Amtrak train.  Most of my other NEC delays, when they happen are under an hour, but an hour delay for a 1 hour 10 minute Baltimore - Philly ride is the proportional equivalent of a 15 hour delay on the Capitol, DC to Chicago, and I've never had anything that bad on the Capitol. I recently endured a 2 hour delay on the NEC NYO - BAL, and, would you believe it, it was freight interference! (A CSX train derailed on the NEC in the Bronx.) As I wrote at the time, not only does CSX delay Amtrak trains on their tracks, they delay Amtrak trains on Amtrak's tracks.


If iliketrains turns out to be correct that it is interference rather than specific failure(s) that were unexpected or UP would not route Amtrak around the failures with priority, then your argument is just silly, at best.
Nobody expects failures to not occur although better maintenance would reduce them. Even that CSX incident was a failure, not an intentional act to deliberately delay Amtrak.

The real problem is the deliberate denial of priority by the Class 1s. Whether or not that was the case in this incident, it is definitely the case more often than not and many of us have witnessed freight after freight going by while our train sits on the siding.


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

A Pacific Surfliner was also 5+ hours late yesterday due to police interference in San Diego


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## jis (Mar 23, 2021)

It is likely that there is considerable amount of deliberate poor dispatching that takes place.

Then there is the case of avoiding deadlocks, which might require holding Amtrak to let a few freights through, and may be caused by earlier poor decision making or Amtrak not making it past a segment in expected time because of some unforeseen reason.

Sitting in a train watching things unfold there is literally no way to tell which of those two it is without having access to much broader context of the overall dispatching situation in the area.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 23, 2021)

I think a reasonabe approach would be to tell our representatives to investigate why Amtrak is suffering freight related delays and what can be done to ensure the hosts are holding up their end of the agreement. If our politicians took this sort of thing more seriously we might be able to move on to other matters instead of rehashing the same complaints.



frequentflyer said:


> UP does a descent job with getting the Cali Zephr, Coast Starlate, STL-CHI trains and the California local trains in NoCal with its hyper sensitive politicians looking on.


In that case it sounds like we should drag more politicians into the fray if we want better schedule keeping.



frequentflyer said:


> Is it frustrating? Of course, but unless the 3 Trillion dollars have something in for the freight railroads, sadly expect more of the same.


The only reason we should expect more of the same is if we choose to do nothing about it. Paying off freight hosts like a mafia shakedown is not the sort of solution I had in mind but feel free to send your own money if you want.


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## HammerJack (Mar 23, 2021)

I think it’s also important to understand that the freight companies who own the tracks are private businesses that are trying to make a profit. They’re the one’s who own the property, do the maintenance, and make the profit based on their performance. Naturally, I understand why preference is given to freight trains, and as much as an inconvenience it is to Amtrak passengers, I think it makes sense.


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## iliketrains (Mar 23, 2021)

Even if in this specific situation there is a reasonable explanation of why this has occurred, the extremely long delays do concur that could be avoided. Fix the problem. There could be solutions that don't cost trillions and trillions of dollars. Examine the situation and see what can be done. I will also write to the White House. We may never have an ear in the WH again.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 23, 2021)

HammerJack said:


> I think it’s also important to understand that the freight companies who own the tracks are private businesses that are trying to make a profit. They’re the one’s who own the property, do the maintenance, and make the profit based on their performance. Naturally, I understand why preference is given to freight trains, and as much as an inconvenience it is to Amtrak passengers, I think it makes sense.


I think it's important to understand that Amtrak is granted priority over freight operations by regulator authority and contractual agreement. Freight hosts have no right to penalize Amtrak for their own incompetence or lack of planning.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Do we know any details about exactly what happened in this particular case? Or are we just flailing because we are pissed off in general having been triggered by this event?



Seems like they latter. 



me_little_me said:


> The real problem is the deliberate denial of priority by the Class 1s. Whether or not that was the case in this incident, it is definitely the case more often than not and many of us have witnessed freight after freight going by while our train sits on the siding.



I’ve only witnessed this in Canada when riding VIA rail. If you get annoyed with how Amtrak trains are dispatched... never ride the Canadian lol. 



HammerJack said:


> Naturally, I understand why preference is given to freight trains, and as much as an inconvenience it is to Amtrak passengers, I think it makes sense.



So it makes sense why a private business does not honor a contract? Interesting. “Your honor we didn’t need to provide the services on the contract we signed because it makes business sense not to.”


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## adamj023 (Mar 23, 2021)

I am not for Amtrak having prioritization on Freight tracks. The model of forcing Amtrak to have prioritization is akin to the telecom industry and forcing alternative providers access to lines already there without deploying new investment for their own lines. Freight is the most important on the freight tracks as even though it may not be time sensitive, it needs to get there as soon as possible. Passengers are less of a priority and if they wanted priority, they would fly or drive, use bus, etc.. as other options exist on routes with known freight usage. With that being said, Amtrak needs to either build their own tracks, switches and interlocking and the like or work with partners to build them in areas where freight volume is known to be disruptive rather than blame the freight railroads for their problems.

If you want a real passenger railroad, then there must be passenger railroad tracks on that route and not rely on congested freight tracks. They both can coexist when there are not traffic disruptions.


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## Exvalley (Mar 23, 2021)

It's an interesting question. One could argue that the reason Amtrak has not invested in its own tracks is because they get priority on freight lines. So perhaps the rule that we defend so much helps Amtrak in the short term but hurts it in the long term.


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## frequentflyer (Mar 23, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> I am not for Amtrak having prioritization on Freight tracks. The model of forcing Amtrak to have prioritization is akin to the telecom industry and forcing alternative providers access to lines already there without deploying new investment for their own lines. Freight is the most important on the freight tracks as even though it may not be time sensitive, it needs to get there as soon as possible. Passengers are less of a priority and if they wanted priority, they would fly or drive, use bus, etc.. as other options exist on routes with known freight usage. *With that being said, Amtrak needs to either build their own tracks, switches and interlocking and the like or work with partners to build them in areas where freight volume is known to be disruptive rather than blame the freight railroads for their problems.*
> 
> If you want a real passenger railroad, then there must be passenger railroad tracks on that route and not rely on congested freight tracks. They both can coexist when there are not traffic disruptions.



1. States have given to money to Freight lines to do just that.

2. On a double main, dispatching Amtrak should be easy money. . BNSF stated that years ago, they slot the Chief among the intermodals and take Amtrak's money.

2. Public Service Announcement- This is a pro Amtrak website.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 23, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> I am not for Amtrak having prioritization on Freight tracks. I am not against passenger rail at all. [...] Freight is the most important on the freight tracks as even though it may not be time sensitive, it needs to get there as soon as possible.


You sound confused. Or maybe you're just trying to have it both ways. In either case it's a convoluted narrative.



adamj023 said:


> Passengers are less of a priority and if they wanted priority, they would fly or drive as other options exist on routes with known freight usage.


Many Amtrak passengers would struggle to drive and many Amtrak stations are in towns with no scheduled air service.



adamj023 said:


> Amtrak needs to either build their own tracks, switches and interlocking and the like or work with partners to build them in areas where freight volume is known to be disruptive rather than blame the freight railroads for their problems.


Or maybe the freight railroads need to do a better job of honoring their obligations instead of whining about Amtrak.


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## TrackWalker (Mar 23, 2021)

Job description for every railroader from trackwalker to train crew to dispatcher- "To move every train as safely and quickly through my territory. (So they become the next persons problem.")


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> 2. On a double main, dispatching Amtrak should be easy money. . BNSF stated that years ago, they slot the Chief among the intermodals and take Amtrak's money.


If BNSF can do it on their southern transcon, why can't UP?


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## jis (Mar 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> If BNSF can do it on their southern transcon, why can't UP?


I suspect because UP does not have as much double track on their southern transcon as BNSF does.

The reason that single track railroads work worse in this country than almost anywhere else is because of the freight railroad's insistence on running freight trains that are way longer than the length of passing loops on the route.


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## adamj023 (Mar 23, 2021)

I used to use UPS Ground which included routing packages by train at the time. One of my boxes once was in an incident and labeled as such though item was not damaged. This is how I knew it was on a train. My point of this is that more people use freight trains to ship what they need or use than actually take passenger rides on Amtrak on which is much more necessary for our economy to function. If freight trains are an issue on certain tracks, then Amtrak should get different trackage or have additional infrastructure built. I would not nor am I complaining about passenger train prioritization on freight tracks as this is the wrong approach for our country. The speed and frequency of the freight trains benefits the country more. The two do not have to conflict with each other if more passenger rail was built if it was lucrative. We need additional infrastructure. It took many years before the interstate highway system was finalized. And the transcontinental railroad also took a significant time before such was accomplished.

Every time you check train status you see claims of freight train interference. Amtrak’s wording is very misleading and deceptive. There will always be freight trains using freight tracks and until Amtrak has their own trackage and bypasses and the like, this will not change. I don’t believe that will ever happen on the entire system but improvements have and will be made over time especially on the more lucrative northeast corridor.


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## me_little_me (Mar 23, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve only witnessed this in Canada when riding VIA rail. If you get annoyed with how Amtrak trains are dispatched... never ride the Canadian lol.


Unlike the U.S. Government which made priority for passenger service a condition for allowing the railroads to disband their passenger service and dump it on the government, the Canadian government didn't have the brains or the will to do the same so VIA has no right to priority. It's unfortunate they made that mistake.


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## Ryan (Mar 23, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> If freight trains are an issue on certain tracks, then Amtrak should get different trackage or have additional infrastructure built.



Amtrak just can't go to another railroad and get different trackage, nor are they funded to just build their own in random places around the country.

Once upon a time, the freight RR's were required to continue running their freight trains because of the public benefit that moving people around the country provides. They were relieved of that responsibility with the creation of Amtrak, but with it came the obligation to host Amtrak and treat them well. They are not living up to that obligation in all cases, and the reaction to that shouldn't be to just let them get away with it and build more infrastructure to work around their malfeasance (in the places where that actually exists).


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 23, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> I used to use UPS Ground which included routing packages by train at the time.



So we really should prohibit passenger vehicles from using the interstates right? They delay the trucks that are making deliveries and that’s much more important than moving people.


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## saxman (Mar 23, 2021)

A 6 hour delay in one location is a lot more than UP purposely delaying Amtrak. Obviously something happened to cause the delay that was out of the dispatchers control, such as a disabled freight train. So before we grab the pitchforks, let's figure out what really went wrong. Other than disabled trains, I truly believe most host railroads want to get Amtrak moving out of the way, but in comes many externalities. Bad or inexperienced dispatchers, too many trains trying to occupy too little track, sidings not long enough will all make for late Amtrak trains. IMO, the biggest culprit is simply too little capacity. Despite our anger toward late trains, the hosts railroads do have a duty to move their freight and make money too.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 23, 2021)

saxman said:


> So before we grab the pitchforks, let's figure out what really went wrong.


If writing a politician is considered pitchfork level craziness then what level of advocacy is acceptable to you?



saxman said:


> Other than disabled trains, I truly believe most host railroads want to get Amtrak moving out of the way, but in comes many externalities. Bad or inexperienced dispatchers, too many trains trying to occupy too little track, sidings not long enough will all make for late Amtrak trains.


If the freight host is not responsible for dispatching oversized trains around insufficient sidings then who is?



saxman said:


> IMO, the biggest culprit is simply too little capacity. Despite our anger toward late trains, the hosts railroads do have a duty to move their freight and make money too.


If three trains per week is too much to ask what do you think is a more reasonable number?


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

saxman said:


> A 6 hour delay in one location is a lot more than UP purposely delaying Amtrak. Obviously something happened to cause the delay that was out of the dispatchers control, such as a disabled freight train. So before we grab the pitchforks, let's figure out what really went wrong. Other than disabled trains, I truly believe most host railroads want to get Amtrak moving out of the way, but in comes many externalities. Bad or inexperienced dispatchers, too many trains trying to occupy too little track, sidings not long enough will all make for late Amtrak trains. IMO, the biggest culprit is simply too little capacity. Despite our anger toward late trains, the hosts railroads do have a duty to move their freight and make money too.


When there is a disabled freight train, Amtrak states that. They simply said freight interference in this case.


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

How much delays can ONE Amtrak train cause to freight? I'm curious. Someone on Youtube said it could back log dozens of trains, however I want opinions here


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## adamj023 (Mar 23, 2021)

I am not saying that Amtrak should not use freight rails as there is spare capacity for passenger trains. But if you want faster speeds, its advantageous to both freight and passenger trains to upgrade infrastructure.


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## Ryan (Mar 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> When there is a disabled freight train, Amtrak states that. They simply said freight interference in this case.


You're assuming everyone involved has perfect knowledge of the situation. You can't draw the inference that it wasn't a disabled freight train from the available data.


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

Ryan said:


> You're assuming everyone involved has perfect knowledge of the situation. You can't draw the inference that it wasn't a disabled freight train from the available data.


Fair. But every time I've seen a major delay that was most likely caused by freight interference, that's what it said. So I assumed they are correct.


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## Exvalley (Mar 23, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> So we really should prohibit passenger vehicles from using the interstates right? They delay the trucks that are making deliveries and that’s much more important than moving people.


Surely you understand that the logistics of sharing a highway or not the same as sharing a railway.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 23, 2021)

jis said:


> I suspect because UP does not have as much double track on their southern transcon as BNSF does.
> 
> The reason that single track railroads work worse in this country than almost anywhere else is because of the freight railroad's insistence on running freight trains that are way longer than the length of passing loops on the route.


Oh, well ,then the regulatory solution is easy: Prohibit trains from being longer than the passing loops along the route. If the railroad wants the benefit of the longer trains, they need to pay for adequate passing loops (sidings?)


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## adamj023 (Mar 23, 2021)

If Amtrak knows they can’t provide service on a short route and has a long delay, they should have suspended the route by train and arranged for alternative transportation. This is not a prioritization issue at all. If I was a customer, I would have did a credit card chargeback and arranged for alternative transportation myself. But I wouodn’t have blamed freight trains for this. Amtrak knows they are selling service which runs on freight train tracks in many places. They should better communicate this to their own customers.


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## Ryan (Mar 23, 2021)

The Sunset Limited is not a short route.

Your chargeback isn't likely to end well, given the terms of service you agree to when you buy a ticket:


> Amtrak further specifically disclaims liability for any inconvenience, expense, or damages, incidental, consequential, punitive, lost profits, loss business or otherwise, resulting from errors in its timetable, shortages of equipment, or due to delayed trains, except when such delay causes a passenger to miss an Amtrak train guaranteed connection. When a guaranteed Amtrak train connection is missed, Amtrak will provide passenger with alternate transportation on Amtrak, another carrier, or provide overnight hotel accommodations, at Amtrak's sole discretion, but only when such circumstances resulted from the actions of Amtrak and this shall constitute Amtrak's sole liability and passenger's sole and exclusive remedy.



Also, they communicate their performance to anyone that cares to look:


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/HostRailroadReports/Amtrak-2019-Host-Railroad-Report-Card-FAQs.pdf










Freight Delays and Your Amtrak Service


Delays can happen for a variety of reasons, but the leading cause of delay to Amtrak trains is “freight train interference.”




www.amtrak.com


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## OBS (Mar 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> Fair. But every time I've seen a major delay that was most likely caused by freight interference, that's what it said. So I assumed they are correct.


No one has ever told you what happens when you "assume"?


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

OBS said:


> No one has ever told you what happens when you "assume"?


Again, fair.


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## Trogdor (Mar 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> How much delays can ONE Amtrak train cause to freight? I'm curious. Someone on Youtube said it could back log dozens of trains, however I want opinions here



It really depends on the set of assumptions going into the equation. The way freight trains operate today, as noted above, means that in many times, they are longer than certain passing sidings that were built decades ago, when trains were a lot shorter. A freight-only railroad can work around that by "fleeting" the trains for hours at a time, so all trains heading in the same direction operate for a period, then the direction reverses, and trains heading the other way can go. A train going against traffic in this hypothetical situation will kill the capacity on the line if those sidings are unusable.

If the passenger train is going against the flow of traffic, those freight trains would have to be parked in sidings possibly dozens of miles apart (depending on how far apart sidings or double track sections are that could hold a long freight train).

Going with the flow of traffic is a bit better, but passenger trains are faster than freight trains, so you either have to pull the leading freight trains over into sidings, or have the passenger train slow down to freight train speeds to stay in line. Some of this can be made up just through normal station stops on passenger trains, but not always.

A freight train is also a lot less nimble than a passenger train, so slowing down to a stop, and then getting moving again, is going to cost a lot more total time than a similar maneuver for a passenger train.

An extreme example that I recall from years ago was that the Buckingham Branch (where the Cardinal runs) typically operates long freight trains (coal trains, IIRC) in a directional one-way pair with a parallel freight route. These trains are longer than almost all the sidings on that line, but since all the freight trains are going the same way, it doesn't matter. On the days when the Cardinal operates, they have to basically shut down freight traffic for hours to allow both Cardinal trains to pass through (50 and 51 are scheduled to meet somewhere on the BB, don't recall exactly where). As the railroad isn't that heavily congested to being with, and it's only 3x/week, they handle it fine. But I recall that being a major issue during the discussions of potentially expanding the Cardinal to daily service.


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## HammerJack (Mar 23, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think it's important to understand that Amtrak is granted priority over freight operations by regulator authority and contractual agreement. Freight hosts have no right to penalize Amtrak for their own incompetence or lack of planning.



I’m not saying that I agree with their practices. I’m just saying that from a business model, freight railroads see it as okay to delay Amtrak because the penalties are small/non-existent. I was more giving an explanation rather than a defense.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 23, 2021)

OBS said:


> No one has ever told you what happens when you "assume"?


Which is why I presume, not assume.


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> It really depends on the set of assumptions going into the equation. The way freight trains operate today, as noted above, means that in many times, they are longer than certain passing sidings that were built decades ago, when trains were a lot shorter. A freight-only railroad can work around that by "fleeting" the trains for hours at a time, so all trains heading in the same direction operate for a period, then the direction reverses, and trains heading the other way can go. A train going against traffic in this hypothetical situation will kill the capacity on the line if those sidings are unusable.
> 
> If the passenger train is going against the flow of traffic, those freight trains would have to be parked in sidings possibly dozens of miles apart (depending on how far apart sidings or double track sections are that could hold a long freight train).
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## frequentflyer (Mar 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> If BNSF can do it on their southern transcon, why can't UP?



I believe is double tracked from LA to El Paso. At one time UP had grand plans of competing with the BNSF's LA-CHI route (LOL). 

Amtrak is part of the problem too. Watch this late SL when it arrives in Tuscon on Youtube. Tuscon is a 50 minute schedule service stop, it takes 20 minutes to refill the Genesis with one fuel truck and for INS to let Rover walk the train, yet watch a 5 hour late SL sit there for 30 minutes more. I wander if Amtrak is as concerned about time as the pax.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 23, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> Surely you understand that the logistics of sharing a highway or not the same as sharing a railway.



Yes I understand that. But it’s passenger vehicles clogging up the interstates keeping deliveries from arriving on time. According to the quoted posters logic, passengers should all have to build individual roads so they don’t slow down deliveries!


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## HammerJack (Mar 23, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> I believe is double tracked from LA to El Paso. At one time UP had grand plans of competing with the BNSF's LA-CHI route (LOL).
> 
> Amtrak is part of the problem too. Watch this late SL when it arrives in Tuscon on Youtube. Tuscon is a 50 minute schedule service stop, it takes 20 minutes to refill the Genesis with one fuel truck and for INS to let Rover walk the train, yet watch a 5 hour late SL sit there for 30 minutes more. I wander if Amtrak is as concerned about time as the pax.



Sometimes I do wonder about the sense of urgency of Amtrak crews, specifically on late trains at long stops.

On the flip side, some crews do care. One time I saw a conductor just board everyone (coach and sleepers) at one door to prevent a pull-down move at a station. The sleeper passengers had to walk through the train, but it saved a few minutes time.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 23, 2021)

Well if you need examples of railroads that get it right take a look at the Rossiya of Russian Railways No. 1 and 2 Vladivostok-Moscow. 

Todays Arriving train in Moscow was ontime into Moscow and at its worst was only 7 minutes late in the Far East. Might I remind you that most of Russia is still in snowy conditions despite being spring. It is possible to run a train on time on the longest railroad in the world with multiple freight, inter-city, and local trains it should be doable here as well. 

The problem is strictly because we have torn up our sidings or ran trains longer than can actually fit in the sidings that remain. It is more of a problem of a lack of regulations in our goal for the highest profit margin that causes these delays.


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## daybeers (Mar 23, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Passengers are less of a priority and if they wanted priority, they would fly or drive, use bus, etc.. as other options exist on routes with known freight usage. With that being said, Amtrak needs to either build their own tracks, switches and interlocking and the like or work with partners to build them in areas where freight volume is known to be disruptive rather than blame the freight railroads for their problems.
> 
> If you want a real passenger railroad, then there must be passenger railroad tracks on that route and not rely on congested freight tracks. They both can coexist when there are not traffic disruptions.


Hahahaha so even if everyone pays (a teeny portion of) taxes to support Amtrak and priority is legally granted to them, and I paid for a ticket, in order to get priority and not get delayed for several hours I should just give up and drive, fly, or take the bus, all of which are inferior modes IMO? That's hilarious. What if I don't/can't drive? Afraid of flying? Live in a place hundreds of miles from a major airport or interstate? Guess I have to suck it up and sit for hours in a siding while cargo that, as you say, is vastly more important, trundles past me, including actually important cargo like food, and materialistic things like the latest crappily made plastic toy sold at walmart that breaks in a few weeks?

You're right, freight & passenger trains can very much coexist if everyone works together. Unfortunately the working together part has been very one sided for decades.


adamj023 said:


> If Amtrak knows they can’t provide service on a short route and has a long delay, they should have suspended the route by train and arranged for alternative transportation. This is not a prioritization issue at all. If I was a customer, I would have did a credit card chargeback and arranged for alternative transportation myself. But I wouodn’t have blamed freight trains for this. Amtrak knows they are selling service which runs on freight train tracks in many places. They should better communicate this to their own customers.


Yes, they know they are running service of which the vast majority run on freight railroad tracks. For current schedules (not higher/high-speed), that's not an issue as Amtrak trains are legally required to be prioritized by freight railroads in dispatching. So actually, it is a prioritization issue. How could you not blame the freight railroads for not following the law? Amtrak has been sounding the alarm on this for decades and it's only gotten worse since train lengths are longer because all freight railroads care about is profit. They don't care about your UPS packages. They don't care about their customers. They don't care about furloughing their employees. They don't care about maintaining their infrastructure. They don't care about their 2+ mile long trains breaking and causing a whole town to shut down due to road access for hours. They just plain don't care. They're not run by railroaders anymore; they're run by shareholders.


Trogdor said:


> It really depends on the set of assumptions going into the equation. The way freight trains operate today, as noted above, means that in many times, they are longer than certain passing sidings that were built decades ago, when trains were a lot shorter. A freight-only railroad can work around that by "fleeting" the trains for hours at a time, so all trains heading in the same direction operate for a period, then the direction reverses, and trains heading the other way can go. A train going against traffic in this hypothetical situation will kill the capacity on the line if those sidings are unusable.


How is this Amtrak's problem? Why is it my problem as a passenger that a freight railroad is trying to squeeze every penny they can through "efficiency" and thus I am delayed several hours in my travels? Not to mention the hours of padding in the schedules.
Seriously, why should I care if a freight line's capacity decreases for an hour? It didn't decrease a few years ago before PSR implementation, so why should I have to suffer even more delays now because they're running trains longer than their infrastructure supports?


Seaboard92 said:


> The problem is strictly because we have torn up our sidings or ran trains longer than can actually fit in the sidings that remain. It is more of a problem of a lack of regulations in our goal for the highest profit margin that causes these delays.


YES thank you Seaboard!


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## TrackWalker (Mar 23, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> The problem is strictly because we have torn up our sidings or ran trains longer than can actually fit in the sidings that remain. It is more of a problem of a lack of regulations in our goal for the highest profit margin that causes these delays.









The Best of Benny Banks


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 23, 2021)

In the USA We put too much interest in shareholder profits than in the quality of the product. Look at Boeing for instance the planes they've made up until the 2010s were fantastic planes. But now they are being forced by shareholders mostly to keep profits increasing and they are cutting corners. It is easier and cheaper to pay a handful of widows every few years when the inferior product falls out of the sky than it is to actually make a quality product. 

In the case of the North American class one railroads we are flirting with disaster every day of the year because of how they are managed. Trains are too long for the sidings there are and what happens when you have two of those trains that have to meet. The best way to experience what is wrong with the railroad today is to try the game Train Dispatcher 3. Crossroads Productions has made significant parts of the Canadian's route just try keeping that train on time I promise you it's hard. You get three trains that are all 3,000 ft longer than all but a handful of sidings. You have to figure out just where you can stick trains to get those behemoths over the line into someone else's problem. And often times it is not clean. I might leave a short freight in a siding waiting for clear track space for several hours because I have no other option available to me. When you have all of these 12,000 ft trains. 

It's actually forcing more crews to be needed because of the amount of recrews you have to get to the middle of nowhere. Now that being said passenger trains are disrupters to a degree they can go faster than most freights which does cause a problem. Some railroads like BNSF use them in a smart way they run ahead of the Z Trains or the faster intermodal freights clearing the way for those trains to get out and over the road.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 23, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> In the USA We put too much interest in shareholder profits than in the quality of the product. Look at Boeing for instance the planes they've made up until the 2010s were fantastic planes. But now they are being forced by shareholders mostly to keep profits increasing and they are cutting corners. It is easier and cheaper to pay a handful of widows every few years when the inferior product falls out of the sky than it is to actually make a quality product.


This is true, but not all shareholders are created equal. And anyone who has heard the phrase "Hollywood accounting" has an idea that the term "profits" are indeed a slippery thing. It's more like there are well-connected shareholders and selected corporate managers who manipulate operating costs and stock prices to maximize their yield at the expense of everyone else involved. In the railroad business, this goes all the way back to the Credit Mobilier scandal of the 1860s, and I suspect the crooks were doing it before then.

Then there are the operators who get control of a company and load it up with debt (with the operators and their cronies having middleman roles that allow them to skim money off of each transaction, whether it's good for the company or not.) Then they bankrupt the company and proceed to sell off the valuable assets, skimming more money off of those transaction costs. If the company is still alive by then, they don't have much in the way resources to offer a quality product. I once spent a dinner at a technical conference listening to a fellow diner who was former Chrysler engineer tell us the whole sad story of Daimler did to them.

So don't blame the poor schlubs who happen to own a few shares of stock, or even the mutual fund managers who bought the stock because they honestly thought the company's performance met the criteria for their investment strategy. It's not all capitalists, it's a select group of "capitalist" crooks who are doing their best to destroy the "free enterprise system." And unfortunately, we have a myth in this country that the "private sector" can always do things better. Maybe, but only if the government watches them like a hawk.


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## Willbridge (Mar 23, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> I am not for Amtrak having prioritization on Freight tracks. The model of forcing Amtrak to have prioritization is akin to the telecom industry and forcing alternative providers access to lines already there without deploying new investment for their own lines. Freight is the most important on the freight tracks as even though it may not be time sensitive, it needs to get there as soon as possible. Passengers are less of a priority and if they wanted priority, they would fly or drive, use bus, etc.. as other options exist on routes with known freight usage. With that being said, Amtrak needs to either build their own tracks, switches and interlocking and the like or work with partners to build them in areas where freight volume is known to be disruptive rather than blame the freight railroads for their problems.
> 
> If you want a real passenger railroad, then there must be passenger railroad tracks on that route and not rely on congested freight tracks. They both can coexist when there are not traffic disruptions.


While the causes of specific delays can be provided with an explanation, an analysis of the overall patterns will show some companies doing better than others. And, Amtrak provides an excuse for further delays when a train is delayed for mechanical reasons.

What the Class 1's sometimes forget is that Ayn Rand is not running their railway and that they have the right of eminent domain, priority at grade crossings, centrally assessed property taxation in some states, and various tax advantages (especially the change regarding track maintenance that was made in the 1960's that encouraged weedy branch lines). As a voter and taxpayer I go along with this because as a public utility they benefit me. One benefit that they can be really good at is timely dispatching of trains. Amtrak was set up to relieve them of one of their utility responsibilities and that responsibility never goes away unless those benefits are taken away, too.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 23, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> Trains are too long for the sidings there are and what happens when you have two of those trains that have to meet.



If the government was able to force all the Class 1's to install PTC, I don't see why they can't require that they only run trains that can fit the shortest sidings along their route. 

Personally, I think something like that should be in the Infrastructure Bill. I think that such a requirement would have far mode supporters than passenger train advocates.


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## Cal (Mar 23, 2021)

Seems like UP isn't giving priority to the Sunset still, which is to be expected. It hasn't made up any time


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## west point (Mar 24, 2021)

The siding problem is a result of the wall street god of lower operating ratios. How can a RR run PSR when any extra long train gets out of its slot and fouls up the too short sidings ?Yes a RR should not run any train that cannot fit into every siding within 30 minutes. Note did not specify distance but time.


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## Trogdor (Mar 24, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> If the government was able to force all the Class 1's to install PTC, I don't see why they can't require that they only run trains that can fit the shortest sidings along their route.
> 
> Personally, I think something like that should be in the Infrastructure Bill. I think that such a requirement would have far mode supporters than passenger train advocates.



That would be impractical. On many routes, a random siding might only be 1000-2000 feet, and while technically in service, might only be used in regular operation for occasional equipment storage/setting out a bad-ordered car. So are all trains on that route now supposed to be 1000 feet? Or do they then deactivate a bunch of sidings, which then makes it impossible for the handful of trains that might be that short to use them?

Another factor with the “well just force them to run shorter trains” attitude is that such a move would have consequences across the whole economy. Shipping would become more expensive, meaning the iPhone (or whatever device) you’re reading this message with would become more expensive. The refrigerator in your kitchen would me more expensive. Amazon products would be more expensive and deliveries would take longer (while Amazon doesn’t ship products from their warehouses to your home by rail, many of these products will likely use rail in part of their journey from the manufacturer to the warehouse). Commodities shipped by rail will get more expensive, resulting in higher costs as well. Are these the sorts of tradeoffs the average American is going to want to make?

The obvious answer is to improve the overall infrastructure, and put independent authorities in charge of the infrastructure that has been improved with public funds. Hopefully something like that would be in the infrastructure bill, and not a “run every train as short as possible” rule.


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## jiml (Mar 24, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> The model of forcing Amtrak to have prioritization is akin to the telecom industry and forcing alternative providers access to lines already there without deploying new investment for their own lines.


And yet that happens in some jurisdictions - not only with telecom, but with electricity and natural gas, and usually by government decree.


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## jiml (Mar 24, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Amtrak just can't go to another railroad and get different trackage, nor are they funded to just build their own in random places around the country.
> 
> Once upon a time, the freight RR's were required to continue running their freight trains because of the public benefit that moving people around the country provides. They were relieved of that responsibility with the creation of Amtrak, but with it came the obligation to host Amtrak and treat them well. They are not living up to that obligation in all cases, and the reaction to that shouldn't be to just let them get away with it and build more infrastructure to work around their malfeasance (in the places where that actually exists).


Nailed it.


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## John Bredin (Mar 24, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> That would be impractical. On many routes, a random siding might only be 1000-2000 feet, and while technically in service, might only be used in regular operation for occasional equipment storage/setting out a bad-ordered car. So are all trains on that route now supposed to be 1000 feet? Or do they then deactivate a bunch of sidings, which then makes it impossible for the handful of trains that might be that short to use them?
> 
> Another factor with the “well just force them to run shorter trains” attitude is that such a move would have consequences across the whole economy. Shipping would become more expensive, meaning the iPhone (or whatever device) you’re reading this message with would become more expensive. The refrigerator in your kitchen would me more expensive. Amazon products would be more expensive and deliveries would take longer (while Amazon doesn’t ship products from their warehouses to your home by rail, many of these products will likely use rail in part of their journey from the manufacturer to the warehouse). Commodities shipped by rail will get more expensive, resulting in higher costs as well. Are these the sorts of tradeoffs the average American is going to want to make?
> 
> The obvious answer is to improve the overall infrastructure, and put independent authorities in charge of the infrastructure that has been improved with public funds. Hopefully something like that would be in the infrastructure bill, and not a “run every train as short as possible” rule.


To your first point, make an exception whereby railroads designate short sidings for short non-freight trains and then enforce it if the railroad repeatedly or routinely sticks freight trains in those designated or exempt sidings.

To your second point, I doubt the object of the hypothesized rule would be to shorten freight trains in the long run but to incentivize the railroads to pry open their pocketbooks to lengthen sidings.

The problem isn't long trains as such but long trains and short sidings, which costs the railroads little because they pass that figurative cost to Amtak in delays. I'm sure the actual dollar cost of lengthening sidings would be less than the bottom-line impact of shorter freight trains, but as it is railroads don't have to pay it. The suggested rule would merely internalize the cost of long-trains-short-sidings so that the railroads can justify the spending on longer sidings to Wall Street cost-hawks.


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## railiner (Mar 24, 2021)

We can debate this all day, and everyday, but the bottom line is, the "movers and shaker's" mostly don't ride the trains, (outside the NEC), and so the problem is not a priority for most of them. Sorry to be pessimistic, but I can't see this situation being remedied any time in the near future...


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## John Bredin (Mar 24, 2021)

railiner said:


> We can debate this all day, and everyday, but the bottom line is, the "movers and shaker's" mostly don't ride the trains, (outside the NEC), and so the problem is not a priority for most of them. Sorry to be pessimistic, but I can't see this situation being remedied any time in the near future...


I've seen political movers & shakers in business class on the _Lincoln Service_ traveling between Chicago and Springfield. I would be surprised if the same wasn't true on the _Capitol Corridor_ in California, and possibly _Carolinian-Piedmont_ service in North Carolina and _Cascades_ to & from Salem. (I'm sure they ride the _Keystones_ and _Empire Service_, as connecting the big city to the capital is their primary purpose, but those lines are NEC-adjacent.)


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## railiner (Mar 24, 2021)

John Bredin said:


> I've seen political movers & shakers in business class on the _Lincoln Service_ traveling between Chicago and Springfield. I would be surprised if the same wasn't true on the _Capitol Corridor_ in California, and possibly _Carolinian-Piedmont_ service in North Carolina and _Cascades_ to & from Salem. (I'm sure they ride the _Keystones_ and _Empire Service_, as connecting the big city to the capital is their primary purpose, but those lines are NEC-adjacent.)


I agree with you on that...I was thinking more like the Sunset, or other long distance trains that suffer the most from freight train interference....


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## Trogdor (Mar 24, 2021)

John Bredin said:


> To your first point, make an exception whereby railroads designate short sidings for short non-freight trains and then enforce it if the railroad repeatedly or routinely sticks freight trains in those designated or exempt sidings.



That...makes no sense at all. “Either all trains can use it or no trains can” doesn’t make for practical policy.


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## John Bredin (Mar 24, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> That...makes no sense at all. “Either all trains can use it or no trains can” doesn’t make for practical policy.


 All-or-none is the opposite of what I'm suggesting. You noted that there are short sidings useful for MOW trains and storing freight cars but would unduly shorten freight trains if a railroad could run no freights longer than its shortest siding. I suggested that such sidings wouldn't count for computing how long freight trains could be, with the railroad free to designate exempt sidings but then compelled to live with its selections and not use the exempt sidings for in-service freight trains.

I don't know how the FRA would enforce that, but I also don't know how they enforce the speed limit, hours-of-service law, etc. I imagine a hefty fine for putting a freight train into an exempt siding -- that the railroad itself would've designated as exempt, mind -- when a railroad is caught doing so would do wonders.


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## Trogdor (Mar 24, 2021)

John Bredin said:


> All-or-none is the opposite of what I'm suggesting. You noted that there are short sidings useful for MOW trains and storing freight cars but would unduly shorten freight trains if a railroad could run no freights longer than its shortest siding. I suggested that such sidings wouldn't count for computing how long freight trains could be, with the railroad free to designate exempt sidings but then compelled to live with its selections and not use the exempt sidings for in-service freight trains.
> 
> I don't know how the FRA would enforce that, but I also don't know how they enforce the speed limit, hours-of-service law, etc. I imagine a hefty fine for putting a freight train into an exempt siding -- that the railroad itself would've designated as exempt, mind -- when a railroad is caught doing so would do wonders.



Maybe I misunderstood what “enforce it if the railroad repeatedly or routinely sticks freight trains in those designated or exempt sidings” meant.


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## jis (Mar 24, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> Maybe I misunderstood what “enforce it if the railroad repeatedly or routinely sticks freight trains in those designated or exempt sidings” meant.


I think John was trying to address the other chronic problem with especially poor dispatch planning, which is that the passing sidings are all filled up with freight trains, some stabled for long durations. 

It is difficult to make a hard and fast rule about it since there are extenuating circumstances where doing so at a siding occasionally makes sense. Unfortunately when there is pure adversarial relationship with no trust between two entities, it is quite difficult to run a system efficiently. 

Even just by themselves some freight railroads manage to shoot themselves in their own feet and tie themselves into knots even in complete absence of Amtrak on a route. For example NS would have melted down on the Water Level Route even if there was no Amtrak around. The sheer incompetence was palpable.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 24, 2021)

jis said:


> I think John was trying to address the other chronic problem with especially poor dispatch planning, which is that the passing sidings are all filled up with freight trains, some stabled for long durations.
> 
> It is difficult to make a hard and fast rule about it since there are extenuating circumstances where doing so at a siding occasionally makes sense. Unfortunately when there is pure adversarial relationship with no trust between two entities, it is quite difficult to run a system efficiently.
> 
> Even just by themselves some freight railroads manage to shoot themselves in their own feet and tie themselves into knots even in complete absence of Amtrak on a route. For example NS would have melted down on the Water Level Route even if there was no Amtrak around. The sheer incompetence was palpable.



My personal favorite NS Screw Up happened in 2019 in the spring. They sent their office car special down to the Masters as always. It took four hours to go fifteen miles because their overly long train it had to meet in Fort Mill had trouble setting cars out in Rock Hill, then had a series of mechanical failures. It gets to Columbia 90 miles later and gets the clear out of town. Only to become part of a three train meet at Summit. Where 191 has to pull forward so the office cars can pull into the siding, so 192 can pull out once the office cars were in the clear. Then wait for 191 to back into the siding to let the office cars around. NS just stands for bad railroading these days.


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## hlcteacher (Mar 24, 2021)

stuff happens


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## The Commissioner (Mar 25, 2021)

How much money does a freight railroad make if they get the Amtrak train over the line on time? How much money does the freight railroad lose if their dispatching causes Amtrak to be late?


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## zephyr17 (Mar 25, 2021)

We are entering a period where the STB will finally be empowered to enforce Amtrak's statutory priority. The recently issued regs, which the railroads fought and lost, require lateness calculations be applied over the entire route, not just endpoints. However, there new regs require that Amtrak and the freight railroads come up with agreed on schedules that reflect the new lateness standards, and there will be a 6 month probation period under the agreed schedules when the STB will examine results but not apply sanctions.

This is a great development. Amtrak has always had statutory priority, but no way to enforce it short of a lawsuit. Finally being able to go to a regulatory authority to enforce its rights is a great develoment.

As another poster pointed out, the creation of Amtrak did not relieve the railroads still providing passenger service of their common carrier obligations provide passenger service. It transferred the operating responsibility (and losses) to Amtrak, but requires railroads to provide support Amtrak in order to fulfill their obligations.


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## niemi24s (Mar 25, 2021)

How many sidings (with single or double turnouts) are there on the LD routes that are too short for an Amtrak train?


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## jis (Mar 25, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> How many sidings (with single or double turnouts) are there on the LD routes that are too short for an Amtrak train?


Those are not the problem. It is the sidings that are too short for the prevalent length of freight trains that are the problems. That is where Amtrak trains get holed up while an army of opposing direction freight trains go by, since that is the only way they can be crossed. Freights are often fleeted, so once an Amtrak hits a fleet, that is pretty much it. They are stuck in the hole. This would not happen if the sidings were long enough to hold the standard length freights.


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## TrackWalker (Mar 25, 2021)

niemi24s said:


> How many sidings (with single or double turnouts) are there on the LD routes that are too short for an Amtrak train?



Back in 2010 during a 6,000 foot siding extension in Stanwood, WA a single crossover (and new control point) was added about 1500 feet south of the north siding switch specifically built just long enough for the Cascade Talgos to meet or duck out of the way of freights.


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## jimdex (Mar 26, 2021)

The Commissioner said:


> How much money does a freight railroad make if they get the Amtrak train over the line on time? How much money does the freight railroad lose if their dispatching causes Amtrak to be late?


That apparently varies, depending on the individual contracts between each railroad and Amtrak. But it appears obvious that most railroads consider Amtrak a negligible source of revenues. If Amtrak paid higher fees, perhaps the freight railroads would be more anxious to host and retain Amtrak service.


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## niemi24s (Mar 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Those are not the problem. It is the sidings that are too short for the prevalent length of freight trains that are the problems. That is where Amtrak trains get holed up while an army of opposing direction freight trains go by, since that is the only way they can be crossed. Freights are often fleeted, so once an Amtrak hits a fleet, that is pretty much it. They are stuck in the hole. This would not happen if the sidings were long enough to hold the standard length freights.


"I see!" said the blind carpenter, as he picked up his hammer and saw.  Thanks.


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## MisterUptempo (Mar 26, 2021)

jimdex said:


> That apparently varies, depending on the individual contracts between each railroad and Amtrak. But it appears obvious that most railroads consider Amtrak a negligible source of revenues. If Amtrak paid higher fees, perhaps the freight railroads would be more anxious to host and retain Amtrak service.


It's about incentives and disincentives. Carrots and sticks, so to speak. 

The Class I's may try to justify their contempt for Amtrak on their rails by complaining about the quality of the carrot. That's understandable, considering the freight railroads, throughout Amtrak's existence, have yet to feel the sting of being thoroughly thwacked by the stick for not fulfilling the obligations they agreed to.

Perhaps it's high time to haul out that stick and let them have it.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 26, 2021)

Hopefully, once the new regs are fully implemented that allow Amtrak to take timekeeping issues to the STB for enforcement action, they will.

The railroads howled loudly about them and lost. The fact that they howled and fought them for years makes me optimistic they might be effective. The railroads clearly did not want Amtrak to have that "stick".


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## Willbridge (Mar 26, 2021)

TrackWalker said:


> Back in 2010 during a 6,000 foot siding extension in Stanwood, WA a single crossover (and new control point) was added about 1500 feet south of the north siding switch specifically built just long enough for the Cascade Talgos to meet or duck out of the way of freights.



Oregon has been working with the UP to extend the siding at glamorous Pulp, Oregon where delays often occur between Portland and Salem. They have several other joint projects lined up but it's been a slow process. The priority Oregon projects are those that benefit passengers AND freight. Photo shows the route of the _Cascades _and _Coast Starlight _in SE Portland.


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## nferr (Mar 26, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> According to a post I read on FB (don't remember which group), there was a disabled freight train. IIRC, much of the route is single track (don't know about the specific point where this supposed breakdown occurred), so if a train breaks down, you've got nowhere to go.



So the original post about a 6 hour delay due to freight interference is probably a bunch of nonsense. Nice.

Yes I have seen plenty of delays because of freight but it's often not just because the freights are being given preference. There's siding lengths etc, unless you're in the dispatching rooms you don't know what the track traffic looks like far ahead. and often Amtrak is behind schedule of it's own accord which screws all the traffic up.


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## IndyLions (Mar 27, 2021)

nferr said:


> So the original post about a 6 hour delay due to freight interference is probably a bunch of nonsense. Nice.
> 
> Yes I have seen plenty of delays because of freight but it's often not just because the freights are being given preference. There's siding lengths etc, unless you're in the dispatching rooms you don't know what the track traffic looks like far ahead. and often Amtrak is behind schedule of it's own accord which screws all the traffic up.



If that’s the case then I can give you a first hand account of one that was absolutely caused by freight interference.

I was on a Michigan train the summer of ‘19 that left Chicago dead on time, and was still running perfectly on time about 20 minutes from the point at which Amtrak tracks in Porter Indiana were to be reached.

Then the exact situation that jis described occurred. We were put in the hole by NS, and a fleet of five or six freight trains were prioritized as we sat there helpless. 

This was NOT a case where we missed our slot.

We were not one minute late at the point we were sidelined, but we were over 3 hours late afterwards. NS just blatantly ignored their responsibilities and the law, because they could. That’s intentional criminal behavior in my opinion.

No one here says that all delays are caused by the Class I’s. Amtrak has a lot of work to do to get their house in order when it comes to maintenance and efficiency.

But anybody who defends the Class I’s actions is dead wrong. They have a responsibility they or their predecessors signed up for, and they are intentionally ignoring their responsibilities and in some cases flaunting it. They should have been called on the carpet years ago – and I only hope in my lifetime it actually happens.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 27, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> If that’s the case then I can give you a first hand account of one that was absolutely caused by freight interference.
> 
> I was on a Michigan train the summer of ‘19 that left Chicago dead on time, and was still running perfectly on time about 20 minutes from the point at which Amtrak tracks in Porter Indiana were to be reached.
> 
> ...



Don’t you have to cross over other tracks to reach the Amtrak owned tracks? It could be the dispatcher that put you in the hole wasn’t able to line up those tracks for reasons beyond their control so they lined up trains to go around you. 

I’m not making an excuse, but saying there could be a reason.


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## TrackWalker (Mar 27, 2021)

I can attest that there are times when the best laid plans of dispatchers can sometimes turn to crap through no fault of their own.


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## IndyLions (Mar 27, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Don’t you have to cross over other tracks to reach the Amtrak owned tracks? It could be the dispatcher that put you in the hole wasn’t able to line up those tracks for reasons beyond their control so they lined up trains to go around you.
> 
> I’m not making an excuse, but saying there could be a reason.



That’s not the point.

The reason “why” they put the legally preferred train on the sidelines isn’t important, unless it’s an emergency.

This was not an emergency – it was an artifact of the way they choose to run their railroad. It put them afoul of the law, and if there were any consequences - they would’ve done something differently.

And for all those Class I apologists out there - it’s not like they’re taking terrific care of their customers. It’s not like freight traffic is at an all-time high, and freight customer satisfaction is off the charts – I haven’t heard any of that.


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## IndyLions (Mar 27, 2021)

TrackWalker said:


> I can attest that there are times when the best laid plans of dispatchers can sometimes turn to crap through no fault of their own.



Dispatchers are important employees but small fish in the big pond. It’s those at higher levels that dictate the operating strategies that lead to the illegal results.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 27, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> That’s not the point.
> 
> The reason “why” they put the legally preferred train on the sidelines isn’t important, unless it’s an emergency.
> 
> ...



It could be the point.... without knowing why the dispatcher made the decision to put your train in the hole, you don’t know. 

Does NS cross another railroads tracks to get to Amtrak owned tracks at that point?


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 27, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> According to a post I read on FB (don't remember which group), there was a disabled freight train. IIRC, much of the route is single track (don't know about the specific point where this supposed breakdown occurred), so if a train breaks down, you've got nowhere to go.





nferr said:


> So the original post about a 6 hour delay due to freight interference is probably a bunch of nonsense. Nice.


I don't see how any of this would absolve the freight host of responsibility. I suppose we could change "freight interference" to "freight obstruction" or "freight maintenance" if that makes people feel better.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2021)

There is a reason if you get a clean run out of Chicago to Porter you can order food in New Buffalo and walk to pick it up without missing the train. When I took No. 352 this last summer I had enough time to run stick my feet in Lake Michigan a half mile a way, grab food, and get back on. We arrived something like 25 minutes early.


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## nferr (Mar 28, 2021)

Where are they going to put those five or six freight trains to allow the Amtrak train to go through? Do they have a siding to hold five or six freight trains? Think it through before making blind assumptions. We don't know the facts. Thats all I'm saying.


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## me_little_me (Mar 29, 2021)

nferr said:


> Where are they going to put those five or six freight trains to allow the Amtrak train to go through? Do they have a siding to hold five or six freight trains? Think it through before making blind assumptions. We don't know the facts. Thats all I'm saying.


It was their (or their predecessor's) decision to agree to the conditions of eliminating passenger service.
It was their decision to run longer and longer trains.
It was their decision to come up with a plan to make more money by not funding longer sidings, additional crews, etc to meet their needs even if it meant violating the terms of their contract.
It was their (or their predecessor's) decision to pull up second tracks in some areas and go back to single tracking.


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## adamj023 (Mar 29, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> If that’s the case then I can give you a first hand account of one that was absolutely caused by freight interference.
> 
> I was on a Michigan train the summer of ‘19 that left Chicago dead on time, and was still running perfectly on time about 20 minutes from the point at which Amtrak tracks in Porter Indiana were to be reached.
> 
> ...



Totally disagree. The Class I railroads own and are responsible for their own tracks. Amtrak just leases rights to use it. Freight absolutely should be a priority and more people depend on freight than actually ride Amtrak. However I do believe there needs to be more passenger tracks built and bypasses and crossovers and the like built so passenger trains won’t be affected as much as freight trains. The Freight railroads contribute substantially more than Amtrak does when Amtrak leases their tracks. The freight railroads are profitable businesses with extremely high volumes of freight. Passengers are lucky if they are able to use the freight tracks but they should not be forced to be prioritized. What should happen on routes with lots of freight trains is more investment in the infrastructure so the passenger trains won’t be delayed. It is not criminal. What is more criminal is the government infringing on the rights of the Freight railroads and expecting a free ride without having to bear costs of infrastructure. Amtrak is subsidized passenger rail that doesn’t sustain a profit on many routes.

Amtrak has been funded and routes aren’t being cut now and I do see a lot of infrastructure work going on. I didn’t even realize the Texas Eagle is now using the TRE commuter tracks in Texas bypassing the UP tracks for a little while so there is definitely work going on to achieve the goal of additional trackage specific to passenger trains. This is what we need more of. 

Freight trains can handle 1,000 train cars or more on a single set and can ship many different types of freight. The trains operate way more frequently than Amtrak trains which are usually much smaller. They also affect way more people who are dependent on the freight shipped. If Amtrak trains go faster then they should be able to bypass the freight trains with more infrastructure in place for such. Acca Yard used to take forever just for passenger trains to pass through the yard in Richmond, Virginia with 20-30 minute delays. Now Amtrak doesn’t have to deal with this. Delaware did added track work as well for a small stretch which helps trains there with added tracks and the like. Harold Interlocking will be improved with the Amtrak bypass which should be ready soon in NYC. In Arizona a grade crossing was removed which wasn’t far from an Amtrak station. Work seems to be constantly ongoing.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 29, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> However I do believe there needs to be more passenger tracks built and bypasses and crossovers and the like built so passenger trains won’t be affected as much as freight trains.



In the case you quoted what is needed is a flyover.


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## Trogdor (Mar 29, 2021)

nferr said:


> Where are they going to put those five or six freight trains to allow the Amtrak train to go through? Do they have a siding to hold five or six freight trains? Think it through before making blind assumptions. We don't know the facts. Thats all I'm saying.



If you’re referring to the discussion about the Michigan train being delayed between Chicago and Porter, the NS Line is double-track main line, and those trains could have held at Porter for the few minutes Amtrak went through (not even passing said freights) before turning off onto Amtrak’s own line.


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## adamj023 (Mar 29, 2021)

If you have two freight trains and an Amtrak train, the two freight trains should be on their own freight tracks, and Amtrak should have trackage that allows the Amtrak train to go around the freight train and get ahead when the freight trains are run slower than Amtrak trains. 

CSX is doing work now and I notice the Amtrak trains crossing this route are delayed further than the announced delays on the service alerts but this is normal for Amtrak. CSX is a freight railroad that seems to be aggressively upgrading.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> If you have two freight trains and an Amtrak train, the two freight trains should be on their own freight tracks, and Amtrak should have trackage that allows the Amtrak train to go around the freight train and get ahead when the freight trains are run slower than Amtrak trains.
> 
> CSX is doing work now and I notice the Amtrak trains crossing this route are delayed further than the announced delays on the service alerts but this is normal for Amtrak. CSX is a freight railroad that seems to be aggressively upgrading.



Railroads are just like highways.. you don’t build a brand new highway just because a greyhound bus and a ups truck both use the highway. I mean you can, but that’s usually not done. 

What is done is lanes are added in congested areas as well as expensive flyovers.... that’s what needed in this example. A flyover. But that’s a very expensive solution and who pays for it? Amtrak? NS? State of Michigan (even though it’s in the state of Indiana). 

It gets complicated.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2021)

OTOH, highways have been built where no commercial traffic is allowed. So such is not unheard of.


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## adamj023 (Mar 30, 2021)

Are flyovers even used in rail networks? I’ve heard of bypasses, crossovers, interlockings, switches, sidings, double tracking, and the like.

Rail upgrades have been funded by Amtrak/Federal govt, state governments, local governments and even the freight railroads themselves. Amtrak Acca Yard bypass included funding by CSX which owned the yard and was the host tier 1 railroad there.

The Wig Wag signal that Amtrak used to pass in Delhi, CO was removed on the BNSF line which I believe was the Amtrak Southwest Chief. As Amtrak got funding and the route is staying, the line is seeing upgrades I presume.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Are flyovers even used in rail networks? I’ve heard of bypasses, crossovers, interlockings, switches, sidings, double tracking, and the like.



Yes they are. 

In the Indiana example to get from one track to another you use a series of switches and crossovers but all of the tracks have to be clear to do that. In order to eliminate freight train interference you’d have to have a flyover to take you over the freight rails.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Are flyovers even used in rail networks? I’ve heard of bypasses, crossovers, interlockings, switches, sidings, double tracking, and the like.


Since you asked - here is a grand daddy of flyovers, the Sawtooth Bridge where the NEC crosses over NJT's Morris and Essex Line and PATH adjacent to the Passaic River.

You can see the Midtown Direct connections that branch off from the M&E at CP Kearny (about the middle of the photo) and join the NEC at CP Swift (outside the bottom right corner of the photo). This is facing towards Newark.

You can also see the Reverse Kearny Connection at the lower left corner of the photo. It leaves the NEC at CP Hudson and joins the NJT M&E beyond the lower left corner of the photo at CP Meadows. The track branching off from it to its left is the lead to the NJT Meadows Maintenance Complex jokingly called the Mickey Mouse Club.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2021)

jis said:


> Since you asked - here is a grand daddy of flyovers, the Sawtooth Bridge where the NEC crosses over NJT's Morris and Essex Line and PATH adjacent to the Passaic River. You can also see the Midtown Direct connections that branch off from the M&E at CP Kearny (about the middle of the photo) and join the NEC at CP Swift (outside the bottom right corner of the photo. This is facing towards Newark.



I was thinking of this one but wasn’t sure exactly where it was located on the NEC! 

I used to stay in NJ to save money when visiting nyc and I would intentionally take all different routes into the city. The infrastructure just amazes me!


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2021)

Something anyone who is wondering about dispatching should try is the game Train Dispatcher3.5. There are plenty of great territories that will give you experience keeping the fast disrupting Amtrak trains on schedule as they run a gauntlet of opposing freight traffic. My general operation method is whomever will get to the siding first is the one who gets lined in, so that whatever they are meeting doesn't have to slow for the reverse points. It's hard even in double track lands to keep Amtrak on schedule. The CN Kingston Sub (Toronto-Montreal) is a good example of this with VIA. A lot freight uses the line which is running substantially slower, and the VIA trains oftentimes take over a slow moving freight while also being mindful of other trains on the opposite main. It's quite the challenge.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2021)

I had built for myself two territories, using the sister tool Track Builder, that took a long time to get vaguely right mainly because of their complexity.

One is the NEC from CP Bergen (at the exit of the North River Tubes) to CP Morris (Morrisville, just across the Delaware River past Trenton).

The other is the entire ex-Lackawanna portion of NJT, together with the Lackawanna Cutoff to the Delaware Viaduct.

I should probably go and dig them out from my archives.

Anyway, one thing that you learn very quickly about the NEC is that if a train is vaguely close to its slot, it is more important to maintain the sequencing to stay out of trouble, than to have the train be precisely on time. If you lose the sequencing in a major way during rush hours you will delay many more trains much more than if you destroy the time of one delayed train further and keep everything else in sequence.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 30, 2021)

Well, to put it very simply Federal Law gives Amtrak priority by explicit statute. Period. It has the authority to since railroads are common carriers and must still serve "public convenience and necessity" and the railroads still providing passenger service in 1970 were never fully relieved of their obligations to carry passengers. Operational responsibility was transferred to Amtrak, but underpinning Amtrak is the railroad obligation to provide support for Amtrak. That is how railroads now discharge their responsibility for passenger services. It is also why Amtrak has access to the railroad network at very low rates (avoidable costs). It is given that access by law.

Unfortunately, there was no practical enforced mechanism, other than lawsuits, until recently. The Surface Transportation Board now has the authority to enforce it, and has a detailed, explicit standards defining timeliness and passenger delay. The STB is now in the process of implementing it.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2021)

jis said:


> I had built for myself two territories, using the sister tool Track Builder, that took a long time to get vaguely right mainly because of their complexity.
> 
> One is the NEC from CP Bergen (at the exit of the North River Tubes) to CP Morris (Morrisville, just across the Delaware River past Trenton).
> 
> ...



Could you send me the territory you built? As I would love to try both of those. 

That is something most people don't think of a lot but there is a sequence to the way trains run. Expresses that skip stops are generally ahead of locals that are making all of the stops as those have the longer run time. BNSF tends to run the SWC right ahead of the Z Train parade into California because it paves the way for everyone else following.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2021)

That is why just merely staring at a timetable you cannot get a feel for the fine choreography that goes on. This is even more so on a territory with 2.5min headway mixing slow Locals, medium speed Regionals and higher speed Acelas all with different stopping patterns requiring them to be moved from the fast tracks to the slow tracks for their stop, like at Metropark, and even a few freight trains.

On the NEC I have found that during the rush hours the choreography is quite exquisite.

I have to find all the Train Dispatcher stuff in my backups somewhere, which will take time. But I know they are there. They might require some work to get them to work on the newer version of Train Dispatcher too. And the Track Builder does not exactly have the friendliest UI either.


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Are flyovers even used in rail networks? I’ve heard of bypasses, crossovers, interlockings, switches, sidings, double tracking, and the like.


JIS illustrated just one of many on the former PRR, which was famous for them, and their engineering in general, in the early 20th century.

Another 'flyover' of note, if you call it that, is the St. Charles Air Line linking Chicago Union Station with the former Illinois Central main line. Just imagine crossing all of the railroads it 'flew over' at grade...


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## MARC Rider (Mar 30, 2021)

I remember going over a flyover on the Pacific Surfliner right before we arrived at LAUS.
And there's the Englewood flyover outside of Chicago.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I remember going over a flyover on the Pacific Surfliner right before we arrived at LAUS.
> And there's the Englewood flyover outside of Chicago.


The one on approach to LAX from the south is a very new one, I think less than five years old, well maybe ten.

The most complex collection of flyovers and duck unders in the US that I am aware of brings two to mind:

1. PRR (now Amtrak) Zoo Interlocking north of Philadelphia 30th St. Station.






2. LIRR Jamaica Station (Jay and Hall)


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## adamj023 (Mar 30, 2021)

Virginia Completes Deals With Amtrak, CSX To Expand Rail Service



Took them a long time just to do Acca bypass. Will take by 2030 to complete this project which doesn’t even start high speed rail, but just lays the framework for it.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2021)

jis said:


> That is why just merely staring at a timetable you cannot get a feel for the fine choreography that goes on. This is even more so on a territory with 2.5min headway mixing slow Locals, medium speed Regionals and higher speed Acelas all with different stopping patterns requiring them to be moved from the fast tracks to the slow tracks for their stop, like at Metropark, and even a few freight trains.
> 
> On the NEC I have found that during the rush hours the choreography is quite exquisite.
> 
> I have to find all the Train Dispatcher stuff in my backups somewhere, which will take time. But I know they are there. They might require some work to get them to work on the newer version of Train Dispatcher too. And the Track Builder does not exactly have the friendliest UI either.



The map I really want to play is Chicago Union Station but it's password protected and I can't buy the territory now.


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## Trogdor (Mar 30, 2021)

jis said:


> The one on approach to LAX from the south is a very new one, I think less than five years old, well maybe ten.



If it’s the one I’m thinking of, it’s got to be at least 10 years old. Maybe not much more, but it was certainly around in 2011.


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2021)

jis said:


> The one on approach to LAX from the south is a very new one, I think less than five years old, well maybe ten.
> 
> The most complex collection of flyovers and duck unders in the US that I am aware of brings two to mind:
> 
> ...


Both of those further illustrate the amazing PRR engineering in that era. PRR owned and controlled the LIRR when that Jamaica complex was built.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2021)

The Harold Complex adjacent to the Sunnyside Yard, with the addition of the ESA connections and the Amtrak through duck unders is becoming quite a piece of work too.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 31, 2021)

jis said:


> The one on approach to LAX from the south is a very new one, I think less than five years old, well maybe ten.



I remember riding on it about 2002 or 2003.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I remember riding on it about 2002 or 2003.


Indeed! The Redondo Junction Flyover, a part of the Alameda Corridor North Project, was completed and put into service in 2001, when the Redondo Tower which controlled the at grade Redondo Junction and Crossing was decommissioned.




All I can say is time flies faster than I thought. I do remember flying out to LA mainly to ride the flyover, but had forgotten how far back that was.


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## Trogdor (Mar 31, 2021)

jis said:


> Indeed! The Redondo Junction Flyover, a part of the Alameda Corridor North Project, was completed and put into service in 2001, when the Redondo Tower which controlled the at grade Redondo Junction and Crossing was decommissioned.
> 
> View attachment 21382
> 
> ...



I'll always remember that track for having an oddly specific 44 mph speed limit.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> I'll always remember that track for having an oddly specific 44 mph speed limit.


You mean like 79mph? Regulations have a strange way of creating bizarre things, often as an unintended consequence.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 31, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> I'll always remember that track for having an oddly specific 44 mph speed limit.


I asked about this once and was informed that several years ago there was some industrial safety research that found unusually specific limits were more likely to be followed with greater precision than round number limits. That being said some oddly specific numbers are merely the result of exclusive round numbers that create a 10-1 or 5-1 limit.


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## Trogdor (Mar 31, 2021)

jis said:


> You mean like 79mph? Regulations have a strange way of creating bizarre things, often as an unintended consequence.



79mph makes sense in the context of the regulation on trains traveling 80 or more mph (or 59, IIRC, as the requirement is for signals on lines where trains travel 60 or more mph). There is no regulation I'm specifically aware of governing trains traveling "45 or more mph" that would make that speed limit required. Given that there are plenty of 45 mph speed limits on railroads around the country, and virtually every non 59 or 79 mph speed restriction is in a multiple of 5, the 44 always got me as a bit out of place.


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## Cal (Mar 31, 2021)

The eagle lost nearly five hours between two stops this morning. As far as the crew said on board, no derailment or stalled train.


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## Willbridge (Apr 1, 2021)

railiner said:


> Both of those further illustrate the amazing PRR engineering in that era. PRR owned and controlled the LIRR when that Jamaica complex was built.


What is truly impressive is that they did all that stuff without computer simulations or CAD drawings. (When our Denver light rail lines became more complex in 2006 there were people who thought that it wouldn't work even with simulations having been run. Based on studying the Berlin S-Bahn I worked out the junctions in Excel and then transcribed it into the low-bid transit software.) I've seen photos of the guys who did this working in arm garter and bare incandescent light days and they did miracles.


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## railiner (Apr 1, 2021)

Here's one of the guy's most responsible for that brilliant engineering, over a century ago...









Alexander Cassatt - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I recall when his statue shown at the end, was in Penn Station....


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## neroden (Apr 3, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> In the USA We put too much interest in shareholder profits than in the quality of the product.


You can say that again, except that it isn't really being driven by shareholders. It usually turns out badly for long-term shareholders. It is driven by looting CEOs who have devised self-payment schemes based on the short-term stock price -- or worse -- and by short-term stock market traders, who are not at all like long-term investors.

I echo everything MARC Rider said:



MARC Rider said:


> It's not all capitalists, it's a select group of "capitalist" crooks who are doing their best to destroy the "free enterprise system."


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## neroden (Apr 3, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> If that’s the case then I can give you a first hand account of one that was absolutely caused by freight interference.
> 
> I was on a Michigan train the summer of ‘19 that left Chicago dead on time, and was still running perfectly on time about 20 minutes from the point at which Amtrak tracks in Porter Indiana were to be reached.
> 
> ...


Yes. I've seen this exact same criminal activity between Porter and Chicago more than once.

There are *plenty* of tracks in this area. This is not single-track territory. It's all double track *at least*. It's also short. The dispatchers could hold the entire track from Chicago to Porter clear for Amtrak if they needed to. Which they don't. They can hold westbound freights at Porter (which is normal, legal behavior). They simply choose not to because their bosses at NS have ordered them to commit crimes. What this saves them is merely that they do not have to stop and restart a freight train to let Amtrak through the junction. This is a tiny, tiny savings. And it's completely illegal, because by federal law, Amtrak has preference at junctions.

I don't blame the individual dispatchers; they probably don't know federal law so they don't know that their bosses have ordered them to commit crimes. The SUPERVISORS, however, are criminals.

I have also heard leaks from inside the railroad companies more than once that they were formally directing their dispatchers to dispatch freight ahead of Amtrak. If their emails and records were subpoenaed, I would expect to find smoking gun proof of criminal dispatching.


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## neroden (Apr 3, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It could be the point.... without knowing why the dispatcher made the decision to put your train in the hole, you don’t know.
> 
> Does NS cross another railroads tracks to get to Amtrak owned tracks at that point?


No. It does not. Stop making excuses.


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