# When is Sleeping Car returning to WAS-BOS overnight train?



## Tlcooper93

Hello everyone,

I've heard rumors about the re-introduction of sleepers to the BOS-WAS/NPN route.
My guess/instinct is these are just rumors, knowing how Amtrak feels about these things. That said, I do think if they introduced one sleeper in both directions with no diner, that there would be demand for it. I go from BOS to DC semi-frequently, and would love to do a sleeper on one of the legs.

I read that the original reason for pulling sleepers from the Night Owl/Federal/Twilight Shoreliner in the first place was equipment shortages, but with the addition of Viewliner II's, would this be possible? I personally think it would be a good combination with an alternate Acela leg.

If this topic has already been addressed, forgive me.

-Thomas

MODERATOR NOTE: this thread was merged into a March 2021 thread in the Amtrak Rail Discussion Forum.


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## Palmetto

Welcome to the group. Yes, there have been hints that sleeping cars will return on 65/66/67 in the future. I agree with you: it's a nice service. I took it from Rte. 128 one night after an event at Boston College. After we got on, there was a full lounge next door. The attendant invited us to dinner [at 10:00 PM]. It was a heated tray meal, but it was tasty. We had the option of a glass of wine with it, as well. Cloth napkins and silverware.

I don't think the food service will return, though.


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## 20th Century Rider

Palmetto said:


> Welcome to the group. Yes, there have been hints that sleeping cars will return on 65/66/67 in the future. I agree with you: it's a nice service. I took it from Rte. 128 one night after an event at Boston College. After we got on, there was a full lounge next door. The attendant invited us to dinner [at 10:00 PM]. It was a heated tray meal, but it was tasty. We had the option of a glass of wine with it, as well. Cloth napkins and silverware.
> 
> I don't think the food service will return, though.



Europe is adding new sleeper service starting this year... reflecting an environmentally friendly trend, as well as folks wanting to avoid all the hassles of going to and from the airports, going through security, checking baggage, then going back into the town for their hotel stay. With overnight service they wake up refreshed at their destination ready for a productive day.

The return of overnight service on the DC BOS route would be well received!  









Europe Is Getting Several New Sleeper Trains That Will Link 13 Popular Destinations


Taking an overnight train in Europe is about to get a whole lot easier.




www.travelandleisure.com




.


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## jiml

There actually used to be two sleepers from Washington - one continued all the way to Boston and the other (Executive Sleeper) was dropped in Penn Station in the middle of the night, with passengers remaining on-board until continental breakfast arrived at 6:30.


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## Tlcooper93

jiml said:


> There actually used to be two sleepers from Washington - one continued all the way to Boston and the other (Executive Sleeper) was dropped in Penn Station in the middle of the night, with passengers remaining on-board until continental breakfast arrived at 6:30.


Yes, I took the Twilight Shoreliner when i was younger. I do remember the set-out sleepers that they dropped off at NYC. It always seemed like such an odd concept. I’d rather take an Acela at night and check into a hotel slightly later.
Personally, I can’t see a market for it. I guess I am much more of a believer in HSR-Sleeper train combos, using one of each on a round trip.


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## jiml

Tlcooper93 said:


> Yes, I took the Twilight Shoreliner when i was younger. I do remember the set-out sleepers that they dropped off at NYC. It always seemed like such an odd concept.
> Personally, I can’t see a market for it. I guess I am much more of a believer in HSR-Sleeper train combos, using one of each on a round trip.


One of the arguments for short-haul sleepers is saving the cost of a hotel room. Presumably it would be difficult to fill a sleeper with only WAS-BOS passengers and who wants to disembark in NYC at 3:45am with nowhere to go. I took it once and changed trains in Penn to continue to Boston, having never seen the New England portion of the NEC by daylight.


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## Tlcooper93

jiml said:


> One of the arguments for short-haul sleepers is saving the cost of a hotel room. Presumably it would be difficult to fill a sleeper with only WAS-BOS passengers and who wants to disembark in NYC at 3:45am with nowhere to go. I took it once and changed trains in Penn to continue to Boston, having never seen the New England portion of the NEC by daylight.


Interesting! What was the price tag on a set out roomette?


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## 20th Century Rider

Creatively speaking... it would be nice if a night sleeper service could be extended further south Newport VA; noted: stopping anywhere in the middle of the night such as NYC at 3:45am is not very practical. 

And while we are dreaming... in a magical world... trains could continue up to Maine from South Station... too bad they never followed through that rail connection.


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## jiml

Tlcooper93 said:


> Interesting! What was the price tag on a set out roomette?


I really have no idea of the actual cost; it was a long time ago. It was part of a circle trip from Toronto to Chicago (International), Chicago to Washington (Capitol), Washington to Boston (split as described) and Boston to Buffalo Depew (LSL) - all without a hotel stay. My wife drove the 2 hours to Buffalo to pick me up. What I can tell you is that the cost of the accommodation was almost the same whether taking First Class from WAS to BOS on a day train, the sleeper for the entire route or splitting it the way I did. At the time I had only been as far north as New Haven on the NEC, so wanted to see the rest by daylight. Given the era this was likely done with a USA rail pass.


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## Mailliw

I've hear those rumors too. I think it's a great idea. Maybe it could even pave the way for more evening departure/morning arrival Euro-style night trains on other routes.


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## Tlcooper93

Mailliw said:


> I've hear those rumors too. I think it's a great idea. Maybe it could even pave the way for more evening departure/morning arrival Euro-style night trains on other routes.


I guess this begs the question now:
We all agree that the there are rumors of a sleeper car return. So then where are these rumors coming from?



20th Century Rider said:


> Creatively speaking... it would be nice if a night sleeper service could be extended further south Newport VA; noted: stopping anywhere in the middle of the night such as NYC at 3:45am is not very practical.
> 
> And while we are dreaming... in a magical world... trains could continue up to Maine from South Station... too bad they never followed through that rail connection.



Ahh, yes, the North-South Rail Link. It would render the Downeaster pointless should it exist. 
If this is a place where we can share our hopes and dreams (I think it is), I would love to see Boston's North Station become a major intercity terminus, with a new Amtrak service to Montreal, and the Downeaster exctended even further.


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## 20th Century Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> I guess this begs the question now:
> We all agree that the there are rumors of a sleeper car return. So then where are these rumors coming from?



RE: Sleeper car return... being planned for and coming to the European continent... but I haven't heard of any rumors of extended sleeper service here.

In the past there were short length sleeper trains between CHI and STL, CHI and DTW, CHI and MSP... and lots lots lots more; but because of urban sprawl of large cities and local transit to those areas lacking, it doesn't seem practical. 

Right now all are hoping that what does remain of the sleeper network will revert back to daily service. Of course, with things so much in flux, anything goes!


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## jiml

20th Century Rider said:


> And while we are dreaming... in a magical world... trains could continue up to Maine from South Station... too bad they never followed through that rail connection.





Tlcooper93 said:


> Ahh, yes, the North-South Rail Link. It would render the Downeaster pointless should it exist.
> If this is a place where we can share our hopes and dreams (I think it is), I would love to see Boston's North Station become a major intercity terminus, with a new Amtrak service to Montreal, and the Downeaster exctended even further.


I doubt if the two stations could be connected in today's reality, beyond the line they currently use to move equipment between them. To do so under downtown Boston would require tunnelling, a lot of money and political commitment for not much gain. For example, is there a market for a New York to Maine train? It might make more sense to upgrade the "Cambridge Connector" in the same manner as New York's Empire Connection and route all intercity trains into South Station. Makes for fascinating conversation though. Isn't Boston the only Amtrak city left with two distinct stations serving different routes?


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## Tlcooper93

jiml said:


> I doubt if the two stations could be connected in today's reality, beyond the line they currently use to move equipment between them. To do so under downtown Boston would require tunnelling, a lot of money and political commitment for not much gain. For example, is there a market for a New York to Maine train? It might make more sense to upgrade the "Cambridge Connector" in the same manner as New York's Empire Connection and route all intercity trains into South Station. Makes for fascinating conversation though. Isn't Boston the only Amtrak city left with two distinct stations serving different routes?



agreed. I personally think the N-S rail link isn’t possible. If it were ever going to be done, it had to have happened along with the Big Dig. And we all know how much of a disaster that was.

In terms of the Cambridge connecter, it really isn’t feasible without major financial and political support (much like the rail link). I live about 4 blocks from one of the crossing on Grand Junction Railroad. It is way too congested an area to have consistent passenger trains running daily.

I think a more realistic option is to just upgrade/flesh out the track surrounding greater Boston to allow for trains like the Downeaster to come into south station, and just add a half hour or so more onto the trip.

lastly, if they extended the Downeaster all the way to Ellsworth (much like the old one from NYC) it would work! Many middle/upper class people travel to Bar Harbor from NYC and I think would be thrilled at the prospect of a nice overnight train. It already takes 5 hours minimum to get to BHB from Boston. If they had an overnight train that stopped in Boston around 10:30pm, I would bet it would get plenty of service.


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## jiml

As a sidebar you might be interested in, there was quite a lengthy discussion here awhile back regarding potential restoration of Amtrak service north of Boston to places like New Brunswick and even Halifax, NS. Old timetables and history of the trackage was shared. We have a lot of historians participating.


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## jiml

Tlcooper93 said:


> agreed. I personally think the N-S rail link isn’t possible. If it were ever going to be done, it had to have happened along with the Big Dig. And we all know how much of a disaster that was.
> 
> In terms of the Cambridge connecter, it really isn’t feasible without major financial and political support (much like the rail link). I live about 4 blocks from one of the crossing on Grand Junction Railroad. It is way too congested an area to have consistent passenger trains running daily.
> 
> I think a more realistic option is to just upgrade/flesh out the track surrounding greater Boston to allow for trains like the Downeaster to come into south station, and just add a half hour or so more onto the trip.
> 
> lastly, if they extended the Downeaster all the way to Ellsworth (much like the old one from NYC) it would work! Many middle/upper class people travel to Bar Harbor from NYC and I think would be thrilled at the prospect of a nice overnight train. It already takes 5 hours minimum to get to BHB from Boston. If they had an overnight train that stopped in Boston around 10:30pm, I would bet it would get plenty of service.


I saw a video some time ago of several T trains being moved from one station to the other. It certainly wasn't a speedy process!


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## Tlcooper93

jiml said:


> I saw a video some time ago of several T trains being moved from one station to the other. It certainly wasn't a speedy process!



I live right near the Mass Ave crossing, and pretty much any time that there is a train coming, the engineers have to jump out and personally stop drivers from crossing. While there are lights for crossings, there are no gates that come down.
It’s pretty funny, and a little bit sad.


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## railiner

If they wanted to add a thru train from the NEC to travel to Maine or beyond, they could schedule it to run overnight, when patrons from Boston would sleeping, and bypass Boston to avoid the problem routing.

In the ‘80’s, I rode an Amtrak “test train”, that split off No. 66 at New London, then ran up the P&W to Worcester, thence the ST to NH and eventually ended in Bangor.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> One of the arguments for short-haul sleepers is saving the cost of a hotel room. Presumably it would be difficult to fill a sleeper with only WAS-BOS passengers and who wants to disembark in NYC at 3:45am with nowhere to go. I took it once and changed trains in Penn to continue to Boston, having never seen the New England portion of the NEC by daylight.


As someone who's made many trips on #66/#67 ( mostly in Biz Class) I would welcome the chance to have a Room on this Route, especially between WAS and Boston! 

I never got to ride in a Night Owl Sleeper but would have for sure!


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## jiml

railiner said:


> If they wanted to add a thru train from the NEC to travel to Maine or beyond, they could schedule it to run overnight, when patrons from Boston would sleeping, and bypass Boston to avoid the problem routing.
> 
> In the ‘80’s, I rode an Amtrak “test train”, that split off No. 66 at New London, then ran up the P&W to Worcester, thence the ST to NH and eventually ended in Bangor.


The Montrealer switched off the NEC at New London for at least one of its reincarnations. IIRC the track split off to the east, then ducked under the NEC while providing an excellent view of the harbor - complete with tall ships on one occasion.


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## Tlcooper93

Bob Dylan said:


> As someone who's made many trips on #66/#67 ( mostly in Biz Class) I would welcome the chance to have a Room on this Route, especially between WAS and Boston!
> 
> I never got to ride in a Night Owl Sleeper but would have for sure!



Its hard for me to believe that it’s taken them this long to consider it. I’m not an expert in cost and pricing, but if you’re already running a train during the time table, would it be a huge dent in the budget to strap a viewliner to the back?

Especially during covid, this might prove to be a good way to travel the corridor.


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## 20th Century Rider

jiml said:


> The Montrealer switched off the NEC at New London for at least one of its reincarnations. IIRC the track split off to the east, then ducked under the NEC while providing an excellent view of the harbor - complete with tall ships on one occasion.



So here is a question for anyone who has familiarity and knowledge of the Boston rail lines... would it be possible for a few passenger trains going north out of South Station to be rerouted through some backtracking... on existing commuter and/or rail trackage, then reconnect with the Maine rail route??? Oh, I know there are all kinds of red tape restrictions for where Amtrak can use trackage... but by adding a few miles and allowing South Station to serve New England to the north... has this been considered before?


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## jiml

Tlcooper93 said:


> Its hard for me to believe that it’s taken them this long to consider it. I’m not an expert in cost and pricing, but if you’re already running a train during the time table, would it be a huge dent in the budget to strap a viewliner to the back?
> 
> Especially during covid, this might prove to be a good way to travel the corridor.


Lack of equipment was a reason/excuse before the latest VLII's came online.


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## Mailliw

Wasn't one version of François Rebello's Train-Hotel proposal a night train from Boston's North Station to Montreal?


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> Wasn't one version of François Rebello's Train-Hotel proposal a night train from Boston's North Station to Montreal?


You could be right, but something tells me it was to use the Vermonter or Adirondack route as far as the LSL east-west tracks, then into South Station via that route. It's hard to find details on that proposal to verify. The way that guy kept changing plans and "dance partners" it was tough to keep track.


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## Willbridge

Years ago the wife of my boss used the WAS>NYP set-out sleeper. I was a bit concerned as I had suggested it. She liked the trip and it made it possible for her to get to a morning appointment without riding sitting up in the early morning hours.

Of course, there was once a plethora of set-out sleepers but I think (he said cautiously) that this was the only one that Amtrak has operated.


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## MARC Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> I think a more realistic option is to just upgrade/flesh out the track surrounding greater Boston to allow for trains like the Downeaster to come into south station, and just add a half hour or so more onto the trip.



The Downeaster between Portland and North Station already takes a half hour longer than the bus ride from Portland to South Station. Why would anyone want to add another half hour to the trip? How many people really transfer between the Downeaster and the NEC trains? I did it once, but the connections don't usually work for me. When I go to Maine, I usually just ride up to Boston and rent a car, because I'm going to need one in Portland, and beyond, anyway.


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## MARC Rider

I rode 67 from Boston to Washington a few times in the early 2010s, then after a few interrupted rides, I said the heck with it and spent the night in Boston, riding home on an Acela with a FC upgrade. I usually rode Business class, which was OK, and even got some sleep. When I arrived in Washington, I'd go to the fitness center at work and take a shower before going to my office. I would have enjoyed riding the sleeper.

I had some pretty wild rides on 67. On one trip the HHP-8 conked out a little south of rt. 128 and we sat a couple of hours in 12 degree (F) weather as the train started cooling down until a northbound train rescued us, and took us back to Boston, where we hung out in the (closed up) South Station waiting area for a few hours until they pulled our train back to Boston and found a new locomotive for us. I think I go into Washington about 5-6 hours late. Then there was the time we conked out between Philadelphia and Wilmington and got rescued by a SEPTA train that took us to Wilmington where we waited for the next southbound Northeast Regional.


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## west point

To stay on topic. I kind of suspect there will be a sleeper(s) on the night owl probably all the way to New Port News (NPN). Mileage for those sleepers will be much lower than all other routes although we can expect they will rotate onto the LSL Otherwise a set out at NYP probably not. To really service the present LD trains with V-1 sleepers an additional V-2 sleeper on each train is needed . That will use up all the new V-2 sleepers . Already there is one additional V-2 sleeper on the Silver trains.

The math becomes Silvers 8, Crescent - 4, LSL - 3, OWL - 2 or 4, Cardinal - 2 or 3 if it goes daily . That = 19 or 22 of the new V-2s. Only 3 - 6 spares and 6 - 12 V-1 spares. Not much slack for any spare sleepers. Spares?? NYP 1, WASH - 1, MIA - 1, CHI - 1, Rest in major overhaul.

The closing of the new NYP from 1 - 5 am puts a real damper on a set out that would place 2 part of the time on a platform that as well. + you have the problem of where to park them? NYP is much busier before 0800 now.

One advantage of night owl sleeper to just WASH would give a much better spare sleeper inventory. However until the new VRE parking tracks are completed at WASH. Layover parking tracks are now very scarce at WASH. Then you will have new Acela-2s coming on line probably 3 or 2 additional train sets and maybe more during transition from -1s to -2s..

A better way to increase sleeper availability might be for the Crescent, both silvers, and Cardinal if more than one sleeper to have all of them to cut off 1 ( or maybe 2) at WASH. That would give 4 additional sleepers available for the longer routes based on present LD schedules. There still is the storage problem of the cut offs. If all the above proposals came into being that would mean 7 sleepers at WASH mid day when all the commuter trains terminate at WASH.


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## PVD

Keep in mind that full utilization of the Bag Dorms adds some sleeper capacity since the rooms in regular sleepers occupied by coach attendants and any food service persons (whatever is left) become available. Under current rules the extra roomettes in the B_D can't be sold, so we don't have to beat that thought to death again.


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## Palmetto

jiml said:


> You could be right, but something tells me it was to use the Vermonter or Adirondack route as far as the LSL east-west tracks, then into South Station via that route. It's hard to find details on that proposal to verify. The way that guy kept changing plans and "dance partners" it was tough to keep track.



The proposal is/was Boston to Montreal via Springfield MA and St. Albans, VT.


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## jloewen

jiml said:


> You could be right, but something tells me it was to use the Vermonter or Adirondack route as far as the LSL east-west tracks, then into South Station via that route. It's hard to find details on that proposal to verify. The way that guy kept changing plans and "dance partners" it was tough to keep track.


My wife and I rode the next-to-last sleeper from WAS to BOS and the first train from BOS to WAS without a sleeper, back. What happened was, I had a speaking engagement in the Boston area and a friend (Ezra Vogel, who died last week Ezra F. Vogel, Eminent Scholar of China and Japan, Dies at 90 ) to stay with overnight, so we arrived happily on time at about 7:30AM in S Station. We had to pay $50 more for a room with a shower because the sleeper did not have a common shower for the little roomettes. Then I gave my talk and workshop (in Salem, I think), returned to Cambridge, and spent the night near Harvard with Ezra and his wife Charlotte. Next day we walked around my old stomping grounds, had nice meals, and got on the train, only to learn that "the sleeper had broken." Instead of telling us, which would have led to a refund and we would have taken the USAir shuttle to DC, Amtrak rebooked us at coach rate and gave us business class. A poor substitute. I don't sleep well sitting up.
Both ways, we were allowed to eat what we wanted from the cafe car, as I recall, there being no diner on the train.
They never fixed the sleeper. That ended the service.


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## jiml

Palmetto said:


> The proposal is/was Boston to Montreal via Springfield MA and St. Albans, VT.


Just confirming that we're talking about the private train proposal as opposed to the restored Montrealer, but if so I agree with you. I was surprised you included "is", since I thought this thing died some time ago when Amtrak started re-examining the Montrealer and ran a couple of test trains. That would go directly to New York without involving Boston at all.

If I recall correctly, Rebello had a lot of problems finding a host railroad for parts of the trip, so multiple routes were considered.


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## railiner

west point said:


> To stay on topic. I kind of suspect there will be a sleeper(s) on the night owl probably all the way to New Port News (NPN). Mileage for those sleepers will be much lower than all other routes although we can expect they will rotate onto the LSL Otherwise a set out at NYP probably not.
> 
> The closing of the new NYP from 1 - 5 am puts a real damper on a set out that would place 2 part of the time on a platform that as well. + you have the problem of where to park them? NYP is much busier before 0800 now.



Since the new train hall at Penn Station has opened...I am wondering if the west end of it might be able to access the Diagonal Platform, which was formerly used to load bulk mail containers into Amtrak baggage and MHC cars at one time. There was a freight elevator from the former mail sorting facility, down to that platform. Not sure of what remains are still there, but that would be a nifty spot for setout sleepers to park at, if it hasn't been repurposed for other uses...



https://maps-manhattan.com/img/0/penn-station-subway-map.jpg


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## AFS1970

I am late to the party, but I thought the issue with sleepers on the NEC, at least north of NYC was a height restriction. I had heard tunnel height once, but I have also heard it has to do with the catenary wires on the New Haven line.


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## OBS

jiml said:


> There actually used to be two sleepers from Washington - one continued all the way to Boston and the other (Executive Sleeper) was dropped in Penn Station in the middle of the night, with passengers remaining on-board until continental breakfast arrived at 6:30.


Actually, to be more specific, there were 3 sleepers. Two cars ran Bos to Was and the third was the Was to NYP car. Always well patronized!


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## OBS

AFS1970 said:


> I am late to the party, but I thought the issue with sleepers on the NEC, at least north of NYC was a height restriction. I had heard tunnel height once, but I have also heard it has to do with the catenary wires on the New Haven line.


No, none of that is true...


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## railiner

OBS said:


> Actually, to be more specific, there were 3 sleepers. Two cars ran Bos to Was and the third was the Was to NYP car. Always well patronized!


And there were sleepers on the Montrealer...


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## Mailliw

AFS1970 said:


> I am late to the party, but I thought the issue with sleepers on the NEC, at least north of NYC was a height restriction. I had heard tunnel height once, but I have also heard it has to do with the catenary wires on the New Haven line.


It sounds like you're thinking of the restrictions in Superliners, which are bilevel.


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## jiml

OBS said:


> Actually, to be more specific, there were 3 sleepers. Two cars ran Bos to Was and the third was the Was to NYP car. Always well patronized!


I didn't realize that; thanks for the update. The Exec wasn't well-patronized the one night I was on it. The attendant told me to take a bedroom in the 10-6 and I'd only paid for a roomette. I think there were two other passengers on that trip, also in bedrooms. I didn't venture to the other sleeper or sleepers. Mine was the last car on the train, which of course makes sense. The drop was so seamless I slept through even the swap to platform power.


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## Chris I

Mailliw said:


> I've hear those rumors too. I think it's a great idea. Maybe it could even pave the way for more evening departure/morning arrival Euro-style night trains on other routes.


Agreed. The Cascades route takes a little over 8 hours from Portland to Vancouver BC, and I've always wished for a night train on the route. Unfortunately, it's not really viable for Seattle travelers (would go through SEA in the middle of the night), so I doubt the ridership is there.


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## nferr

I used the Twilight Shoreliner sleeper quite a few times when we had an office just outside DC. Used to get on at New Haven around 12:30 am if I recall correctly. Would arrive in DC early morning and go to the office. Was way better than trying to get to a NY airport in early morning.


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## IndyLions

Night trains are practical. And if you can reduce flight, hotel and rental car expenses while you are at it - they can be cost saving. I use the existing system like that where I can for business. Off the top of my head, I’ve used these city pairs:

South Bend IN to Buffalo NY
South Bend IN to Syracuse NY
Bloomington IL to Marshall TX
Chicago IL to Fargo ND
Emeryville CA to Portland OR
I’ve always wanted to do Chicago to Denver that way, but for whatever reason never had any business in Denver.

And being fully back on topic, I would have used the Night Owl DC to Boston last year had a sleeper been available. Instead I made other arrangements with an itinerary that wasn’t as good in my estimation.


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## Mailliw

Last year when I was looking at a trip to Chicago I noticed the westbound Capitol Limited leaves Pittsburgh about 11:45pm and arrives in Chicago at 8:45am. At least in that direction it's perfect for a night train.


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## Tlcooper93

Wow, glad there is so much information here.

A couple of takeaways from the conversation:
Seems that I am not the only one to have heard the rumors of sleepers returning to the NE corridor. And even if it’s just a rumor, there seems to be some practical reasons why it would be good to have them. Especially now that there are 25 new Viewliner sleepers in the fleet, there could be sufficient equipment to make this happen. 

The north south station issue in Boston is a huge conundrum, and a reasonable and cost-efficient solution doesn't exist at the moment. Any future northbound intercity routes will simply have to have North Station as their southern terminus. In my mind, this doesn’t seem too bad, as North Station is not at capacity currently (especially pending the renovation of the Charles River drawbridge), and it’s actually quite convenient to get to otherwise. Two subway lines run through north station as opposed to South Station’s one (further showing the value of Back Bay).

A night train from Boston to Montreal would be awesome.


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## Palmetto

From what I heard along the way, when the Big Dig in Boston was under construction, they built the infrastructure to allow a two-track train tunnel as well to connect North and South stations.


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## jiml

Palmetto said:


> From what I heard along the way, when the Big Dig in Boston was under construction, they built the infrastructure to allow a two-track train tunnel as well to connect North and South stations.


From Wikipedia: The original Big Dig plan also included the North-South Rail Link, which would have connected North and South Stations (the major passenger train stations in Boston), but this aspect of the project was ultimately dropped by the state transportation administration early in the Dukakis administration. Negotiations with the federal government had led to an agreement to widen some of the lanes in the new harbor tunnel, and accommodating these would require the tunnel to be deeper and mechanically-vented; this left no room for the rail lines, and having diesel trains (then in use) passing through the tunnel would have substantially increased the cost of the ventilation system.


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## Tlcooper93

Palmetto said:


> From what I heard along the way, when the Big Dig in Boston was under construction, they built the infrastructure to allow a two-track train tunnel as well to connect North and South stations.


Essentially, this was the original plan, but it was abandoned in favor of wider roads and cheaper costs.
The big dig was back in a time when America still subscribed to the "more lanes=less traffic" falacy.


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## Deni

Tlcooper93 said:


> Essentially, this was the original plan, but it was abandoned in favor of wider roads and cheaper costs.
> The big dig was back in a time when America still subscribed to the "more lanes=less traffic" falacy.


"Cheaper costs."  It's just funny to hear that term about anything to do with the Big Dig.


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## Willbridge

jiml said:


> I didn't realize that; thanks for the update. The Exec wasn't well-patronized the one night I was on it. The attendant told me to take a bedroom in the 10-6 and I'd only paid for a roomette. I think there were two other passengers on that trip, also in bedrooms. I didn't venture to the other sleeper or sleepers. Mine was the last car on the train, which of course makes sense. The drop was so seamless I slept through even the swap to platform power.



I wonder if the demand varied sharply by day of the week? It was marketed for business travel, but how did it do on the weekends? The text does mention the theater but was there ever any tour package or focused advertising in theater programs, etc.?


----------



## John Bredin

IndyLions said:


> Night trains are practical. And if you can reduce flight, hotel and rental car expenses while you are at it - they can be cost saving. I use the existing system like that where I can for business. Off the top of my head, I’ve used these city pairs:
> 
> South Bend IN to Buffalo NY
> South Bend IN to Syracuse NY
> Bloomington IL to Marshall TX
> Chicago IL to Fargo ND
> Emeryville CA to Portland OR
> I’ve always wanted to do Chicago to Denver that way, but for whatever reason never had any business in Denver.


 Back in the late '90s, my job involved an annual conference in Washington and I used the _Capitol Limited_ that way from Chicago to DC and back. The conference began on Saturday afternoon, late enough for the other Chicago attendees to fly out that morning. But I didn't have to get up at 6am to shuffle off to Midway for a flight, I walked from my Loop office to Union Station after work on Friday and arrived at the conference about the same time as the fliers into BWI by merely getting off at Washington Union and riding the Red Line a few stops.

It worked out the same way at the end of the conference: breaking in time for the fliers to get to BWI for a same-day homeward flight also got me onto the _Cap Ltd._, and I arrived the next morning at Chicago Union and walked to my office with the other commuters. 

It was perfect, except I could expense only the rail fare portion of the ticket, but I considered "eating" the accommodation charge a small price to pay for traveling in a more civilized way.


----------



## MARC Rider

John Bredin said:


> Back in the late '90s, my job involved an annual conference in Washington and I used the _Capitol Limited_ that way from Chicago to DC and back. The conference began on Saturday afternoon, late enough for the other Chicago attendees to fly out that morning. But I didn't have to get up at 6am to shuffle off to Midway for a flight, I walked from my Loop office to Union Station after work on Friday and arrived at the conference about the same time as the fliers into BWI by merely getting off at Washington Union and riding the Red Line a few stops.
> 
> It worked out the same way at the end of the conference: breaking in time for the fliers to get to BWI for a same-day homeward flight also got me onto the _Cap Ltd._, and I arrived the next morning at Chicago Union and walked to my office with the other commuters.
> 
> It was perfect, except I could expense only the rail fare portion of the ticket, but I considered "eating" the accommodation charge a small price to pay for traveling in a more civilized way.


There were a few overnight train trips I could justify for work trips:

Washington - Ann Arbor/Detroit -- I'd take the Capitol Ltd. to/from Toledo and either take the Ambus to the Michigan destination or take a cab to the airport and rent a car.
Washington - Chicago -- It worked about the way described above. I'd leave the office earlier than I would to catch a flight aand arrive in Chicago the next morning. I could work a full day in Chicago and leave that evening, and get into DC in the middle of the day and go to the office, although if the train was late (which wasn't uncommon), I'd just go right home to Baltimore when I got to Washington.
Washington - Florida -- I presented a couple of times at a conference in Tampa. I rode the Silver Star down to arrive the day before the conference. This involved weekend travel. The northbound departure left late enough so I could over the last day of the conference and make my train that day.
Washington - Savannah -- For some years I presented at a conference in Hilton Head. I'd take the Silver Meteor down, arrive in Savannah before 7, take a cab to the airport, rent a car, and drive to Hilton Head. After the conference, I could have just driven back in time to return the car and take the northbound Meteor, but I usually liked to spend the night in Savannah and ride home the next day on the Palmetto.
Baltimore -- Atlanta -- I did this once for a meeting in Atlanta. I took a cab from the station to the meeting. My boss had driven down earlier, so I drove home with him.


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## bms

I think Sleepers should be marketed as simply private rooms.

For example, the train from Cleveland to Boston leaves at 5:50 a.m. and arrives after 8 p.m. Not during nighttime hours, but definitely long enough to justify buying a sleeper/private room if one can afford it.


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## IndyLions

bms said:


> I think Sleepers should be marketed as simply private rooms.
> 
> For example, the train from Cleveland to Boston leaves at 5:50 a.m. and arrives after 8 p.m. Not during nighttime hours, but definitely long enough to justify buying a sleeper/private room if one can afford it.



I use them that way all the time. Examples are Chicago to Minneapolis, LA to Oakland, even Indianapolis to Chicago on occasion. It’s especially productive if I have work to do on a business trip.


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## jiml

IndyLions said:


> I use them that way all the time. Examples are Chicago to Minneapolis, LA to Oakland, even Indianapolis to Chicago on occasion. It’s especially productive if I have work to do on a business trip.


Even a better idea in the current health situation.


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## Mailliw

It's a shame Amtrak has so few sleeping cars; they could really come in handy on alot more routes. I think cars with all roomettes (+ ADA room) would be a great idea; market them as First Class day rooms that just happen to convert to private sleeping berths.


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## IndyLions

Mailliw said:


> It's a shame Amtrak has so few sleeping cars; they could really come in handy on alot more routes. *I think cars with all roomettes (+ ADA room) would be a great idea*; market them as First Class day rooms that just happen to convert to private sleeping berths.



There’s your answer for more available economical sleeper space *and* appeal to young people. There have to be like a gazillion “tiny home” shows on TV/YouTube these days - and it seems like all the buyers are 25-35 years old. What is a roomette if not a “tiny home” on rails?


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## fdaley

It sounds like the New Haven parlor cars of old -- "drawing room and day roomettes."


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## Bob Dylan

fdaley said:


> It sounds like the New Haven parlor cars of old -- "drawing room and day roomettes."


I enjoyed riding in the New Haven Parlor Cars many times when I was stationed in New London,Conn.


----------



## bms

IndyLions said:


> There’s your answer for more available economical sleeper space *and* appeal to young people. There have to be like a gazillion “tiny home” shows on TV/YouTube these days - and it seems like all the buyers are 25-35 years old. What is a roomette if not a “tiny home” on rails?



Marketing to Millennials could certainly be improved... Among the 25-35 age group, the most common reaction I get when mentioning anything about a train trip is that the person didn't know there is intercity passenger train service in Ohio.


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## Palmetto

bms said:


> Marketing to Millennials could certainly be improved... Among the 25-35 age group, the most common reaction I get when mentioning anything about a train trip is that the person didn't know there is intercity passenger train service in Ohio.



Given the train times in most of the state, for all intents and purposes there isn't any.


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## Mailliw

bms said:


> Marketing to Millennials could certainly be improved... Among the 25-35 age group, the most common reaction I get when mentioning anything about a train trip is that the person didn't know there is intercity passenger train service in Ohio.


Blaming us for crap like Flexible Dining sure isn't helpful.


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## jpakala

We had a bedroom on the Capitol from Chicago to DC and a friend was in a roomette in the same car. When a mother and her late teen or early 30s daughter boarded and found their roomette the daughter was shocked at its tiny size. I think she was a bit claustrophobic because she was lying across suitcases with her head on one of the seats and her feet on the area next to her mother's seat opposite hers, thereby staring up at the ceiling (which on Superliners isn't as high as on Viewliners (thereby the roomettes & bedrooms seem a tad roomier on Viewliners). The roomettes are like the low-priced double rooms on Slumbercoaches of years back on the B&O and a few other RRs and Amtrak for a while.


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## bms

66/67 is a short run, so a Roomette should be fine for two people for one night.


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## west point

Wouldn't the 9-1/2 hours BOS <> WASH be a more important metric ? Short distance only matters for car mileage costs.


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## AmHope

jiml said:


> Isn't Boston the only Amtrak city left with two distinct stations serving different routes?



Stockton has two stations, one for the western route of San Joaquins, and one for the northern route. The northern station also services ACE. There is no direct connection between the two stations. However the two San Joaquins routes do share stations (far) to the south from Modesto onwards, so it's not quite the same as with the completely separate Downeaster route.


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## cocojacoby

deleted


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## cocojacoby

bms said:


> Marketing to Millennials could certainly be improved... Among the 25-35 age group, the most common reaction I get when mentioning anything about a train trip is that the person didn't know there is intercity passenger train service in Ohio.


Don't think age has much to do with it. After we returned from our annual winter vacations (Amtrak Boston to Florida) and told people what we did, just about everyone would comment, "You can do that?". So I say most of the public do not know these trains even exist.


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## jiml

cocojacoby said:


> Don't think age has much to do with it. After we returned from our annual winter vacations (Amtrak Boston to Florida) and told people what we did, just about everyone would comment, "You can do that?". So I say most of the public do not know these trains even exist.


That was a fact 10, 20 and 30 years ago.


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## bms

jiml said:


> That was a fact 10, 20 and 30 years ago.



is that a reason not to change the marketing to fix that?


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## Barciur

Lots of talk about European service comparison, but one thing many people are missing is the cost. The cost of a sleeper ride here is exorbitant compared to European service. Partly of course because there is no shared compartments. But this could also be taken care of. OBB, the pioneer of the return of European sleepers, has some interesting ideas to lower the cost and keep the same amount of people in a "shared" compartment yet with privacy. Check these out: Nightjet of the future

Nevertheless, a big part of the reason why people often will not take the sleeper train in America is that it is really for well off people or those who love them and will save up large amounts of money for them. This is not so in Europe. Sure, the Paris - Moscow train costs a lot by European standards, but that price is still super small compared to an Amtrak experience.


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## Mailliw

Nightjet's compartments look pretty cool, but I think North American operators would be reluctant to buy rolling stock that doesn't have a day mode. If couchettes are off the table then Pullman style berths (with modern touches like outlets galore and Upper windows) could work as a budget sleeper.


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## Tlcooper93

Barciur said:


> Lots of talk about European service comparison, but one thing many people are missing is the cost. The cost of a sleeper ride here is exorbitant compared to European service. Partly of course because there is no shared compartments. But this could also be taken care of. OBB, the pioneer of the return of European sleepers, has some interesting ideas to lower the cost and keep the same amount of people in a "shared" compartment yet with privacy. Check these out: Nightjet of the future
> 
> Nevertheless, a big part of the reason why people often will not take the sleeper train in America is that it is really for well off people or those who love them and will save up large amounts of money for them. This is not so in Europe. Sure, the Paris - Moscow train costs a lot by European standards, but that price is still super small compared to an Amtrak experience.



Agreed in principal.
I'm not sure it would work in America. Overall, one of the reasons I think that cars prevail (despite opinions and outlooks on trains finally turning tide), is because America retains a very individualistic culture, and if we have to travel by train, we sure as hell are not going to share a room with anyone else. People in America (even to their detriment) pride their freedom, even in places where is doesn't make any sense. Its quite fascinating actually.

Work brings me to Europe approximately once a summer, and there is a very different approach there to travel. The collectivist culture (much like China, and other train boasting countries), caters well to trains, and sleeper cars with strangers. It is much more like a hostel (just on wheels), which is unthinkable in America on a large scale.

Therefore, it would be hard to market a budget sleeper, unless you market exclusively towards the younger generation, which has seen how travel works in other countries, and would certainly consider this if they knew about it. I know I would!




Mailliw said:


> Nightjet's compartments look pretty cool, but I think North American operators would be reluctant to buy rolling stock that doesn't have a day mode. If couchettes are off the table then Pullman style berths (with modern touches like outlets galore and Upper windows) could work as a budget sleeper.



This is very true as well.
I personally never grasped why the first class airline approach (with lie flat seats) was never adopted for trains like they were on HSR routes in China and Japan. I think it would be perfect for routes like BOS-DC at night where it may be hard to run a sleeper, but no one really wants to take 66 and 67 when there are other modes of travel that are cheaper and faster. I'm about as close as it gets to a train fanatic, and I'd avoid taking coach/business on that train.


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## Mailliw

The thing is Americans are perfectly willing to sleep in a room with strangers, even sitting upright, if the price is right.


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## Tlcooper93

Mailliw said:


> The thing is Americans are perfectly willing to sleep in a room with strangers, even sitting upright, if the price is right.


We probably have different experiences. I haven't seen this ever, especially where there are alternate modes of transit at an equal price.

I have a feeling the "right price" is so low it would be out of the question.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> We probably have different experiences. I haven't seen this ever, especially where there are alternate modes of transit at an equal price.
> 
> I have a feeling the "right price" is so low it would be out of the question.


So you are saying that you have never seen people travel in Coach overnight sleeping in the reclining seats next to strangers?


----------



## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> So you are saying that you have never seen people travel in Coach overnight sleeping in the reclining seats next to strangers?


Not what I meant at all.
I thought this went without saying, but I was mistaken. Changing into PJs, going through a night routine, and getting under the covers in a room full of strangers is a very different thing than nodding off in coach....


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## Mailliw

In couchettes passengers only remove shoes and coats unless a family or group booked the whole compartment.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> Not what I meant at all.
> I thought this went without saying, but I was mistaken. Changing into PJs, going through a night routine, and getting under the covers in a room full of strangers is a very different thing than nodding off in coach....


Pardon my confusion since the message you were responding to did not imply anything like changing into PJs in a private room. Or at least I could not see how one could possibly come to that conclusion from the following...


Mailliw said:


> The thing is Americans are perfectly willing to sleep in a room with strangers, even sitting upright, if the price is right.


----------



## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> Pardon my confusion since the message you were responding to did not imply anything like changing into PJs in a private room. Or at least I could not see how one could possibly come to that conclusion from the following...



Let me make this a little clearer, and reiterate my original post.
The question at hand was whether sleeper trains in America similar to ones you see in China and Europe, with multiple (4-6) beds in one room, can work. I posited that I don't think this would work given a culture difference. While the commentary regarding sleeping upright in coach was brought up, I don't think its a level comparison.



Mailliw said:


> In couchettes passengers only remove shoes and coats unless a family or group booked the whole compartment.


Then, in my experience, people must not follow the rules.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> Then, in my experience, people must not follow the rules.


How would anyone know whether people would or would not follow the rules (whatever they are for a nonexistent thing) in a type of accommodation that does not exist in this country on rail other than it being a mere conjecture?

What rules do people follow in using lie flat seats in premium cabins on airlines?


----------



## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> How would anyone know whether people would or would not follow the rules (whatever they are for a nonexistent thing) in a type of accommodation that does not exist in this country other than it being a mere conjecture?



I'm not really trying to start a huge disagreement here, and I think its fair to say my original point with the American public not embracing 6-berth sleeper trains is reasonable.

These sorts of trains do exist in China, and people very much carry out their night routines as if they are at home, which I think is perfectly fine.
Perhaps these rules are not enacted on these trains. 

That said, though these trains don't exist in America, I think its fair to say that rules get bent all of the time, sometimes to the discomfort (or not) of fellow passengers. People often change into PJs on redeye domestic flights.


----------



## Mailliw

jis said:


> How would anyone know whether people would or would not follow the rules (whatever they are for a nonexistent thing) in a type of accommodation that does not exist in this country on rail other than it being a mere conjecture?
> 
> What rules do people follow in using lie flat seats in premium cabins on airlines?


Many airlines actually include pajamas in the amenities kit ultra premium First Class passengers get. Back in economy it's not unusual to see people wearing sweatpants and t-shirts on longhaul flights.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> That said, though these trains don't exist in America, I think its fair to say that rules get bent all of the time, sometimes to the discomfort (or not) of fellow passengers. People often change into PJs on redeye domestic flights.


So the same Americans are OK doing whatever on domestic flights, but they won't be OK on trains. OK I can see that there is no logic to an unfounded opinion. I am happy to leave it at that.


----------



## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> So the same Americans are OK doing whatever on domestic flights, but they won't be OK on trains. OK I can see that there is no logic to an unfounded opinion. I am happy to leave it at that.


No need to be so rude about it. I never once posited anything offensive to you, so I would hope that you would show the same grace towards others who share a passion for trains like you.

We can agree to disagree without insulting each other, I would hope.
I very well could be wrong about what I think.
But at the same time, I could be right. Its not set in stone.


----------



## jis

Tlcooper93 said:


> No need to be so rude about it. I never once posited anything offensive to you, so I would hope that you would show the same grace towards others who share a passion for trains like you.


I would you be so rude as to call someone else pointing out a demonstrated fact rude?


----------



## MARC Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> We probably have different experiences. I haven't seen this ever, especially where there are alternate modes of transit at an equal price.


You ever ride 66/67? Even without sleepers, it's a very well patronized train. I'm amazed at the number of people who either need to be out and about during the wee hours or don't mind sleeping sitting up (OK, sitting reclined in a sort of lounger) sharing space with strangers.


----------



## MARC Rider

The point of offering sleeper service on Amtrak isn't to make it cheap, it's to allow Amtrak to soak up some extra financial gravy to help their revenue bottom line. If passengers want cheap, they can ride in very roomy reclining coach seats. The challenge for Amtrak is to figure out a combination of fares and service levels for the sleepers that will maximize their _net_ revenue. If the service level costs too much and the fares are too low, then net revenue is not maximized. If fares are too high and the service sucks (hi, flex dining!), then they may lose customers, but it's possible net revenue would not be impacted as badly. 

Having ridden 66/67 overnight in business class many times, I can say that the only thing I'd want from a sleeper is the ability for lie-flat sleeping. The only other on-board service I've ever used was getting a nightcap in the lounge car. Train 67 leaves Boston at about 9:30 and gets into Washington at about 7:00 the next morning. No need for breakfast, you can get that in the station. When I rode it, I used to go right to the office and get a shower downstairs in the fitness center. It would be entirely reasonable to offer lower Washington-Boston sleeper fares on the basis that there's no included meal service. Actually, keep the service level minimal the whole way, and have cheap(er) sleeper fares for the whole run from Newport News to Boston.


----------



## RebelRider

Keep an eye on the available classes of service for 66/67 over the next few days. Maybe run your searches for travel beginning April 5...


----------



## Bob Dylan

RebelRider said:


> Keep an eye on the available classes of service for 66/67 over the next few days. Maybe run your searches for travel beginning April 5...


This would be great!


----------



## Palmetto

There is a blank column appearing for NEC trains now concerning the various ticket classes. Could that be for rooms, as you have it on the Western trains?


----------



## railiner

RebelRider said:


> Keep an eye on the available classes of service for 66/67 over the next few days. Maybe run your searches for travel beginning April 5...





Palmetto said:


> There is a blank column appearing now for NEC trains now concerning the various ticket classes. Could that be for rooms, as you have it on the Western trains?


Time to revive the name, "Night Owl"?...


----------



## Palmetto

$340 for a room, one-way, BOS-WAS. Way too high, IMO.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

Palmetto said:


> $340 for a room, one-way, BOS-WAS. Way too high, IMO.




I rode overnight several times in the NEC. Here's my ticket stub on #67 from Boston to Washington back in May 1997. Fare with a Roomette (old style) was $156.50......about $255. today.

Always enjoyed that ride. I'd get aboard in Boston early and set my alarm so I would be awake for the views of Manhattan from the run up over Hell Gate Bridge then on down into Penn Station. I might get a bit more sleep...then see the sun rise over the upper reaches of Chesapeake Bay.


----------



## Trogdor

There’s a rumor that sleepers will return to WAS-BOS starting April 5.


----------



## Exvalley

Fantastic news


----------



## NS VIA Fan

Great! I just posted over in the other thread of memories of a BOS-WAS trip back in '97 and would certainly do it again.


----------



## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> Great! I just posted over in the other thread of memories of a BOS-WAS trip back in '97 and would certainly do it again.


Now if only the 'Cavalier' would come back, eh?


----------



## Ryan

This is outstanding!


----------



## NS VIA Fan

railiner said:


> Now if only the 'Cavalier' would come back, eh?



Yup!......That would be great!


----------



## Barciur

Palmetto said:


> $340 for a room, one-way, BOS-WAS. Way too high, IMO.


Well, this is just the whole situation we've been discussing here isn't it. For a 450 mile, one night segment, Amtrak's pricing is just way too expensive for most people. If they want to decide that Amtrak's sleeper categories are premium only, that's fine, but we're not going to get more people to ride these this way. 

Which is a big shame because I know there are creative ways of creating a more budget-friendly sleeper service, especially for a train like this, where you really do not have to worry about food and could provide it, but it would take ordering a whole set of new cars and recreating sleeper offerings. Probably to something like lie-flat seats on airplanes, as somebody mentioned before.


----------



## jiml

Palmetto said:


> $340 for a room, one-way, BOS-WAS. Way too high, IMO.


Unfortunately this allows them the opportunity to trial the service, say it was unpopular and give it up.


----------



## Rasputin

That is one small step for man!


----------



## Exvalley

Palmetto said:


> $340 for a room, one-way, BOS-WAS. Way too high, IMO.


I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it is definitely expensive. 

But on the other hand, in normal times, a hotel room in Boston, New York, or Washington is going to cost that much if not more. So you are essentially getting your transportation for free when you factor in that you are saving on a night in a hotel.

Notice I said ",In normal times." I just booked the Courtyard Times Square West for $111 on a Saturday night for this coming July. These are definitely not normal times.


----------



## MARC Rider

Exvalley said:


> I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it is definitely expensive.
> 
> But on the other hand, in normal times, a hotel room in Boston, New York, or Washington is going to cost that much if not more. So you are essentially getting your transportation for free when you factor in that you are saving on a night in a hotel.
> 
> Notice I said ",In normal times." I just booked the Courtyard Times Square West for $111 on a Saturday night for this coming July. These are definitely not normal times.


Actually, even before Covid, you could get a hotel room in downtown Boston for a good bit less than $300. If you searched bit, you could even find rooms at nice hotels for less than $200 (at least in the winter.) Of course, it all depends on the week. For a few years, I was staying over Martin Luther King Day, and I found rooms within walking distance of South Station under $200. Then I moved my trip to late February and I had to go stay over by the Tufts Medical Center to find a place at about $200. I found out that the American Physics Society always holds their annual meeting that week, which explained the jump in hotel room prices. Last year, I moved my trip a week later, and the prices were a bit lower. I'm not sure what happens in the summer, except that I know that hotel rooms in Portland, Maine are totally unaffordable in the summer.

Another question: Are they actually going to serve food to sleeper passengers? I would think that the SCA could handle preparation of flex meals in the cafe car, the 67 sure gets into Washington pretty early to expect a breakfast, unless it's a to-go continental breakfast. Of course, there's more time (and need for meals) for people traveling from Boston to Richmond or Newport News, though I suspect they would be a minority of the passengers.


----------



## Exvalley

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, even before Covid, you could get a hotel room in downtown Boston for a good bit less than $300.


Boston hotel prices vary tremendously, depending on the time of year and what is happening in town. The average daily rate is $270 or higher for seven months out of the year - at least pre-Covid. Year round, the average daily rate is $261.

You can see the stats here:








Hotel Statistics | Statistics Reports


View information of projected hotel openings, room capacity, occupancy, revenue and average rates of hotels in Boston and following areas.



www.bostonusa.com


----------



## Exvalley

MARC Rider said:


> Another question: Are they actually going to serve food to sleeper passengers?


I would prefer a cheaper rate with no food.


----------



## jiml

From my recollection of previous travels when a sleeper was available, you received a bottle of water in the evening and a continental breakfast served in your room by your attendant. No other food was included, although a cafe car was available. I've never done southbound but it seems the northbounds left WAS after 10pm, making food somewhat irrelevant.


----------



## jis

AFAICT, the only $340 fare that I can bag for "Room" involves multiple trains, one of which is Acela from BOS to NYP, and the NYP - WAS leg is on a regular LD train (BOS d9:10am WAS a6:46pm). That shows up April 5 and later, some even lower fares like $316. Where did you find a $340 fare on 67? What am I doing wrong to not see the Sleeper fare on 67? This fare search was as of 11am of 3/5/21.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> AFAICT, the only $340 fare that I can bag for "Room" involves multiple trains, one of which is Acela from BOS to NYP, and the NYP - WAS leg is on a regular LD train (BOS d9:10am WAS a6:46pm). That shows up April 5 and later, some even lower fares like $316. Where did you find a $340 fare on 67? What am I doing wrong to not see the Sleeper fare on 67? This fare search was as of 11am of 3/5/21.


I wonder if they're just looking at the last listed train(s), which should be 67, but one or two 9:10 *AM* trains are listed after 67 - with the sleeper prices. I'm guessing those show last because they're multi trains (which I would consider to be a glitch as the trains should be posted by time....).


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> From my recollection of previous travels when a sleeper was available, you received a bottle of water in the evening and a continental breakfast served in your room by your attendant. No other food was included, although a cafe car was available. I've never done southbound but it seems the northbounds left WAS after 10pm, making food somewhat irrelevant.




Here's the Amenities offered on #66 between Washington and Boston way back in April '89. This was a trip I took to see the newly restored Washington Union Station. Departing Washington around 10 that evening there was a small bottle of wine along with cheese & crackers....and then the next morning around Providence a continental breakfast with coffee and juice was delivered. I remember an enjoyable trip rolling up the corridor sipping on the wine! (It was a Sunday morning arriving back in Boston. I had parked downtown with no traffic getting out of the city at 8am...I was home in Nova Scotia in about 10 hrs.)


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> Here's the Amenities offered on #66 between Washington and Boston way back in April '89. This was a trip I took to see the newly restored Washington Union Station. Departing Washington around 10 that the evening there was a small bottle of wine along with cheese & crackers....and then the next morning around Providence a continental breakfast with coffee and juice was delivered. I remember an enjoyable trip rolling up the corridor sipping on the wine! (It was a Sunday morning arriving back in Boston. I had parked downtown with no traffic getting out of the city at 8am...I was home in Nova Scotia in about 10 hrs.)
> 
> View attachment 20981


I recall that handout on other LD trains (and still have some), but there was no diner to provide "Complimentary Meals" either time I rode northbound - once all the way to Boston and the other on the Executive Sleeper attached to NYP. One could imply from reading that you could have gone for a full breakfast had there been a diner. No wine for sure, so it must have been later than your trip.


----------



## Mailliw

Exvalley said:


> I would prefer a cheaper rate with no food.


Nightjet's catering consists of light refreshments & nightcap sold by the attendants and a continental breakfast in the morning. It works well for their model.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> I recall that handout on other LD trains (and still have some), but there was no diner to provide "Complimentary Meals" either time I rode northbound...................



No.....it was a 'Complementary Continental Breakfast' delivered to my room. Sure there are some that want a full breakfast but I found the Continental to be just fine for an 8am arrival into Boston.


----------



## jis

NS VIA Fan said:


> Departing Washington around 10 that the evening there was a small bottle of wine along with cheese & crackers.


There was a period when this was standard offering at departure on all Sleeper service across the system back in those days, irrespective of what time the train departed. I used to get that regularly on the departure of the Lake Shore and the Broadway Limited out of New York.

Interestingly, while I live in Florida now, I had never traveled to Florida before the late '90s and that too never by train until a little later. So I don't know what was happening on the Silvers or the Crescent (which I had traveled only by Coach), but I presume it was the same.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> No.....it was a 'Complementary Continental Breakfast' delivered to my room. Sure there are some that want a full breakfast but I found the Continental to be just fine for an 8am arrival into Boston.


I don't remember the arrival in Boston as well, but think it was a croissant and muffin with orange juice and tea/coffee after a few hours sleep on a side track in Penn Station. I thought perhaps the southbound out of BOS was early enough to get some real food and it was included for you.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> There was a period when this was standard offering at departure on all Sleeper service across the system back in those days, irrespective of what time the train departed. I used to get that regularly on the departure of the Lake Shore and the Broadway Limited out of New York.
> 
> Interestingly, while I live in Florida now, I had never traveled to Florida before the late '90s and that too never by train until a little later. So I don't know what was happening on the Silvers or the Crescent (which I had traveled only by Coach), but I presume it was the same.


Sadly missed. Inglenook wine IIRC.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> Sadly missed. Inglenook wine IIRC.


Yes. They also used to give a folder full of stationary, picture post cards and some other advertising literature too at some point in time.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> I don't remember the arrival in Boston as well, but think it was a croissant and muffin with orange juice and tea/coffee............



Yup......I think that's what I got and there might have been a fruit-cup too. Just fine for me in the morning arriving and off the train by 8am. If I wanted something else.....there were plenty of restaurants around for a sit-down meal.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> Yes. They also used to give a folder full of stationary, picture post cards and some other advertising literature too at some point in time.


I have a bunch of those. Nice stuff.


----------



## PaTrainFan

NS VIA Fan said:


> I rode overnight several times in the NEC. Here's my ticket stub on #67 from Boston to Washington back in May 1997. Fare with a Roomette (old style) was $156.50......about $255. today.
> 
> Always enjoyed that ride. I'd get aboard in Boston early and set my alarm so I would be awake for the views of Manhattan from the run up over Hell Gate Bridge then on down into Penn Station. I might get a bit more sleep...then see the sun rise over the upper reaches of Chesapeake Bay.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20976
> View attachment 20977



I am all for the advances of digital ticketing as it is easier for the most part, but I miss saving my old ticket stubs from past trips. I am now relegated to keeping the e-tickets in a folder on my computer so I can keep track.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> I have a bunch of those. Nice stuff.


Me too. All stashed away with the rest of my Amtrak stash.


----------



## OBS

jiml said:


> From my recollection of previous travels when a sleeper was available, you received a bottle of water in the evening and a continental breakfast served in your room by your attendant. No other food was included, although a cafe car was available. I've never done southbound but it seems the northbounds left WAS after 10pm, making food somewhat irrelevant.


Actually, for a time, there was full meal service included. This was during the period when the train was upgraded and rebranded as the Twilight Shoreliner.


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> There was a period when this was standard offering at departure on all Sleeper service across the system back in those days, irrespective of what time the train departed. I used to get that regularly on the departure of the Lake Shore and the Broadway Limited out of New York.
> 
> Interestingly, while I live in Florida now, I had never traveled to Florida before the late '90s and that too never by train until a little later. So I don't know what was happening on the Silvers or the Crescent (which I had traveled only by Coach), but I presume it was the same.


It was the same. Also for a time they were giving away complimentary champagne glass engraved Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Silver Palm


----------



## John Bredin

I hate to be the guy with the bucket of cold water (as opposed to victory Gatorade) but I checked several random days in April through July, between WAS and BOS in both directions, and the two ticket options offered for 66 & 67 were coach and business. If this is true, it hasn't made its way into the booking system yet.


----------



## jis

I have heard a rumor from a usually trustworthy source of rumors that the official formal announcement is likely to be on Monday. Until then fingers crossed. But remember, at present it is a rumor.


----------



## me_little_me

Jis is rumored to say that it is a rumor that the rumor about the official announcement is rumored to be Monday.

Did I get that right?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I saw the “rumor” in writing on a FB post. Supposedly a reply to someone that stated 65/66/67 would have the sleepers between WAS and BOS starting April 5th.
Plus our own Rebel Rider posted to keep our eyes open. RR is a trustworthy poster.


----------



## jis

A rumor posted on the internet is still a rumor until there is an official announcement. Just because it is on Facebook does not make it any less of a rumor  Otherwise Trump would still be our President


----------



## Palmetto

Check out the other thread on this topic. The price is posted.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Me too. All stashed away with the rest of my Amtrak stash.


Sadly, when I moved from Queens to Florida last year, I had to dispose of most of my 'collection'.


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> Check out the other thread on this topic. The price is posted.


I actually checked with Amtrak. Their response was that there is such a rumor. There will be an official announcement when it becomes official.

It is currently not in the reservation system. It will appear there if and when it becomes official.

The $340 fare on and after April 5 in the reservation system is for a two train connection with BOS - NYP on an Acela BC at 9:10am and then a regular LD train Roomette NYP to WAS. I checked.

Having said all that I have good reasons to believe that it will come to pass and will likely be announced on Monday. But it has not officially yet.


----------



## Cal

This is great news. I assume it'll use Viewliner II's as well, if it happens?


----------



## Exvalley

So what are the guesses as to the fares? Will there be fare buckets as with other routes?

I am predicting that roomettes will be about $320. Bedrooms for $750.


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Sadly, when I moved from Queens to Florida last year, I had to dispose of most of my 'collection'.


I am sure I have lost some treasures in each of my moves. But there are now two designated boxes that always move with me. They contain treasures like the specially embossed tumblers that Indian Railways (Eastern Railway) gave to each passenger of the First year of operation of the Rajdhani Express from Kolkata to New Delhi and back back in 1969-70, and even older card tickets that got embossed with the date on which they were issued, and such other otherwise useless nicknacks.


----------



## jiml

Downsizing sucks. A lot of timetables and other memorabilia were sacrificed when we moved to our current home 3 years ago. I managed to save a couple of boxes and am glad my spouse doesn't read this forum.


----------



## IndyLions

Wow - first the Silvers have started adding sleepers to their consists in an apparent response to increased demand...now (possible) sleepers on 66/67?

Could this be some semblance of logical management at Amtrak?


----------



## IndyLions

For those hoping for lower fares in sleepers - Amtrak’s supply of sleepers (in normal times) is far lower than demand - driving prices up.

So for now the best we can hope for is a flexible travel schedule, and the occasional bargain.

I do feel there is going to be a travel boom hot on the heels of the Covid crisis - so I would be aggressive in getting my travel arrangements made for the third quarter.

I know a lot of you are waiting for better dining options to be announced before making any reservations – but that might be an expensive strategy.


----------



## Cal

IndyLions said:


> Could this be some semblance of logical management at Amtrak?


Now now, don't get too crazy


----------



## TrackWalker

We always referenced rumors as, "Word on the track is..." 
Gave it more credibility. (or track cred )


----------



## chrsjrcj

Well Amtrak confirmed such on their Facebook page:







 (it's buried in a comment thread on this post)


----------



## Cal

chrsjrcj said:


> Well Amtrak confirmed such on their Facebook page:


LET'S GO!


----------



## Palmland

That is good news. But why not keep them on 66/67 to Newport News? No additional sleepers required and Hampton Roads area, as well as tourists and students in Williamsburg, would generate additional revenue and eliminate switching at Washington.


----------



## Cal

Palmland said:


> That is good news. But why not keep them on 66/67 to Newport News? No additional sleepers required and Hampton Roads area, as well as tourists and students in Williamsburg, would generate additional revenue and eliminate switching at Washington.


No services to turn a sleeper?


----------



## jiml

Palmland said:


> That is good news. But why not keep them on 66/67 to Newport News? No additional sleepers required and Hampton Roads area, as well as tourists and students in Williamsburg, would generate additional revenue and eliminate switching at Washington.


That would actually be a fairly attractive trip.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmland said:


> That is good news. But why not keep them on 66/67 to Newport News? No additional sleepers required and Hampton Roads area, as well as tourists and students in Williamsburg, would generate additional revenue and eliminate switching at Washington.


Wouldn't they need to add a diner then? Being a "night owl" between BOS and WAS eliminates the need for providing meals.


----------



## Palmland

jiml said:


> That would actually be a fairly attractive trip.


Of course this is not an original thought as Amtrak’s Shoreliner did this for a few years with the cafe car (with a few tables) handling meals. And, as railiner notes, the PRR/RF&P/N&W did this too with its train to Norfolk.


----------



## Exvalley

Will they be dropping a sleeper in NYC?


----------



## Trogdor

AmtrakBlue said:


> Wouldn't they need to add a diner then? Being a "night owl" between BOS and WAS eliminates the need for providing meals.



No. There’s no inherent, natural law that says a train with a sleeper needs a diner. The Silver Star (pre-COVID) didn’t have a diner. The Three Rivers (from the mid 1990s to 2005) didn’t have a diner. The train already has a cafe car.

The Kentucky Cardinal didn’t have a diner. In fact, that train had no food service car at all.



Exvalley said:


> Will they be dropping a sleeper in NYC?



Almost certainly not.


----------



## Mailliw

Exvalley said:


> Will they be dropping a sleeper in NYC?


I doubt it, but at least they could skip the honey buckets this time.


----------



## Cal

Trogdor said:


> No. There’s no inherent, natural law that says a train with a sleeper needs a diner. The Silver Star (pre-COVID) didn’t have a diner.


Does it have a diner now-


----------



## Mailliw

Just a thought, but if Amtrak installed showers at the lounges in DC and Boston that could make overnight service even more popular if coach and Business class passengers could buy a pass.


----------



## Heading North

I’m wondering if the Washington turn is to keep the sleeper close to the NEC in case it’s needed elsewhere, and avoiding the potential for a short turn or misconnect in NPN if CSX is problematic. (Does the 67 consist come back as the same day’s 66 normally?) But personally I’m a little miffed as ALX is my closest station and I’d love the option! Took the sleeper twice northbound from MET to BOS when I lived in NJ, but that was two decades ago and the departure was close to midnight instead of 1-something-am. And many trips in (surprisingly packed) coach cars.

That said, while I doubt they would go through with it, it could maybe work either 1) as a set-out/through sleeper in DC for a train like the Palmetto, Cardinal, or Carolinian for connections north of NYP or 2) as an efficient equipment turn for other trains, like a single-level Capitol Limited.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> I actually checked with Amtrak. Their response was that there is such a rumor. There will be an official announcement when it becomes official.
> 
> It is currently not in the reservation system. It will appear there if and when it becomes official.
> 
> The $340 fare on and after April 5 in the reservation system is for a two train connection with BOS - NYP on an Acela BC at 9:10am and then a regular LD train Roomette NYP to WAS. I checked.
> 
> Having said all that I have good reasons to believe that it will come to pass and will likely be announced on Monday. But it has not officially yet.




Thanks for checking that. I was mistaken to think that the trains showing the $340 fare was #67.


----------



## railiner

For what it's worth, I just checked the total fare from NYP to Washington in a Roomette on the Cardinal and the Silver Star...$257.00 on March 12th...Coach fares on those two trains were $128 or $60, respectively...so kind of hard to extrapolate from that what the Roomette charge may be for that segment or what the total may be from Boston to Washington, since there are no sleepers currently between Boston and New York.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

railiner said:


> For what it's worth, I just checked the total fare from NYP to Washington in a Roomette on the Cardinal and the Silver Star...$257.00 on March 12th...Coach fares on those two trains were $128 or $60, respectively...so kind of hard to extrapolate from that what the Roomette charge may be for that segment or what the total may be from Boston to Washington, since there are no sleepers currently between Boston and New York.


Might be less since meals won't be provided. The Cardinal and, I assume, the Silver Star serves a meal between NYP and WAS.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Late to the party, but no less excited. I will be getting the ticket and traveling on April 5!


----------



## RebelRider

Cal said:


> This is great news. I assume it'll use Viewliner II's as well, if it happens?



One would think you'd put your best, newest equipment on the corridor, but this service will be operated with a Viewliner I. Perhaps they want to keep the VLIIs captive to Hialeah for now.



Palmland said:


> That is good news. But why not keep them on 66/67 to Newport News? No additional sleepers required and Hampton Roads area, as well as tourists and students in Williamsburg, would generate additional revenue and eliminate switching at Washington.



As of right now, there are no plans to remove/add the sleeper at WAS. It will deadhead between WAS-NPN. Don't really understand this one. Perhaps the ridership/revenue estimates south of WAS wouldn't cover the cost of an SCA down and back. 



Heading North said:


> I’m wondering if the Washington turn is to keep the sleeper close to the NEC in case it’s needed elsewhere, and avoiding the potential for a short turn or misconnect in NPN if CSX is problematic. (Does the 67 consist come back as the same day’s 66 normally?)



In BOS, 66 turns for 65/67 same day and in NPN 65/67 turns for 66 same day.


----------



## Cal

RebelRider said:


> One would think you'd put your best, newest equipment on the corridor, but this service will be operated with a Viewliner I. Perhaps they want to keep the VLIIs captive to Hialeah for now.


Where did you get the information of viewliner Is being used?


----------



## Ryan

AmtrakBlue said:


> Plus our own Rebel Rider posted to keep our eyes open. RR is a trustworthy poster.


----------



## Palmetto

Whatever happened to ThirdRail7?


----------



## jiml

RebelRider said:


> One would think you'd put your best, newest equipment on the corridor, but this service will be operated with a Viewliner I. Perhaps they want to keep the VLIIs captive to Hialeah for now.


I wonder if there's some argument to be made for having the in-room facilities on a train that's exclusively overnight, as opposed to having to go down the hall? Might not be a bad thing.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> Whatever happened to ThirdRail7?


Don't know. I think about him sometimes. I sent a pm to him a while ago and he has not responded.


----------



## pennyk

Cal said:


> Where did you get the information of viewliner Is being used?


Rebel Rider is a very reliable source.


----------



## Cal

pennyk said:


> Rebel Rider is a very reliable source.


Okay, got it


----------



## rms492

Hi, would anyone know if this train would operate at 110 or 125mph? I think the idea of being in a sleeper, laying down, in a darkened room looking at the night lights, being hauled at 110 or 125 would be an awesome experience!


----------



## railiner

[QUOTE="RebelRider, post: 880509, member: 14539"

As of right now, there are no plans to remove/add the sleeper at WAS. It will deadhead between WAS-NPN. Don't really understand this one. Perhaps the ridership/revenue estimates south of WAS wouldn't cover the cost of an SCA down and back. 

[/QUOTE]
Maybe it will free up table space in the dinette...thinking the train crew between WAS and NPN might move their "office" there....


----------



## Cal

rms492 said:


> Hi, would anyone know if this train would operate at 110 or 125mph? I think the idea of being in a sleeper, laying down, in a darkened room looking at the night lights, being hauled at 110 or 125 would be an awesome experience!


I would assume it would operate at the top speeds so 125.


----------



## Seaboard92

I honestly think its a great addition to the network. I'll definitely be trying this service out this year just so I can get the Downeaster. I really hope the Vermonter comes back by then too so I can attach that to the same trip as well. It now makes it possible for me to take the Palmetto from my area to Boston with a change in Washington. 

I hope Amtrak does a good soft product for this route.


----------



## Mailliw

jiml said:


> I wonder if there's some argument to be made for having the in-room facilities on a train that's exclusively overnight, as opposed to having to go down the hall? Might not be a bad thing.


Nope, not sleeping with a toilet at my feet.


----------



## fdaley

When Amtrak took off this sleeper temporarily in 2003, I never imagined it would take 17-plus years for it to return. I'll be very happy to see it back. I used to use it fairly often in the '80s and '90s to get to and from Boston, often en route to/from Maine. I remember that we had a roomette booked on 67 to Washington (it had recently been renamed The Federal) on the Tuesday of Thanksgiving week in 2003, and we received a call a couple of weeks ahead saying the sleeper had been removed from the train. Because it was the busiest travel week, it was a bit of a scramble to work out a Plan B. 

Regarding the loading south of Washington, my one experience going south of D.C. in the Twilight Shoreliner era was when we took a roomette from New York to Richmond on our way to a wedding in 1998. The car seemed full out of New York (it left earlier then, about 1:30 a.m.). Arrival into Washington was also earlier, maybe 6 a.m., but almost everyone piled off there. I think there was only one room besides ours that was occupied south of D.C.


----------



## Willbridge

rms492 said:


> Hi, would anyone know if this train would operate at 110 or 125mph? I think the idea of being in a sleeper, laying down, in a darkened room looking at the night lights, being hauled at 110 or 125 would be an awesome experience!


That's what ÖBB NightJet is for.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

Mailliw said:


> Nope, not sleeping with a toilet at my feet.




I used to think a Roomette (old style) on the Ocean (and Canadian) were the greatest....compact and cozy! But I just cringe now at the thought of that commode in the room with you and all that surrounding carpeting! Now (Covid aside) on the Ocean I'll take nothing less than a Ren Bedroom with an ensuite Washroom/Shower.


----------



## railiner

OTOH, I'd bet that they could run a soiid train consisting of Slumbercoaches (if they could solve the retention toilet problem) on this train. 
BTW, does anyone recall if the Slumbercoaches had carpeting, or the easier to clean linoleum floors? Cant' recall...


----------



## Tlcooper93

rms492 said:


> Hi, would anyone know if this train would operate at 110 or 125mph? I think the idea of being in a sleeper, laying down, in a darkened room looking at the night lights, being hauled at 110 or 125 would be an awesome experience!



What are Viewliner I's rated at for speed? I doubt the train will get up to 125mph. This trip needs to take 9 hours don't forget.


----------



## railiner

Agreed that this is one train where speed is not at all important. That is why they allow such relatively long dwell times at stations. Plenty of time to handle baggage, and in the past, US Mail and Package Express.


----------



## PVD

If I recall, VL1 is 110 VL2 is 125 Top speed is not an issue for this train.


----------



## Tlcooper93

PVD said:


> If I recall, VL1 is 110 VL2 is 125 Top speed is not an issue for this train.



Will then this is simple. The train will top out at 110.
Mystery solved.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Tlcooper93 said:


> What are Viewliner I's rated at for speed? I doubt the train will get up to 125mph. This trip needs to take 9 hours don't forget.


If the VLI's are rated for 125, then indeed the train will go that fast along the route between BOS and WAS. Without the sleeper, it already goes up to 135 mph in some areas.

And what do you mean by "*needs* to take 9 hours"?


----------



## Tlcooper93

AmtrakBlue said:


> If the VLI's are rated for 125, then indeed the train will go that fast along the route between BOS and WAS. Without the sleeper, it already goes up to 135 mph in some areas.
> 
> And what do you mean by "*needs* to take 9 hours"?



Viewliner I's as we just learned are rated for 110. I am aware that the NE Regional, along certain corridors, (Rt 128 and Providence section) can reach high speeds.
But given that this is an overnight train, arriving early isn't what one would want, if you are trying to get sleep. It's scheduled from 9:30-6:30, so yes, 9 hours would be ideal.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I would assume it would operate at the top speeds so 125.


125 if the assigned Sleeper is a VLII, 110 if it is a VLI until the VLIs are cleared for 125 I would presume.

OTOH I don't think any of the trains carrying Sleepers on the NEC (including now65/66/67) really require to hit 125mph to maintain their section times.


----------



## fdaley

I think the 9-hour schedule is the result of long dwell times at major stations, especially NYP but also NHV and PVD, rather than slow running between the stations. It seems mainly a function of offering more attractive times at major stops rather than being time that's necessary for baggage or other work.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

Back in the early 2000s.....VIA's overnight 'Enterprise' between Montreal and Toronto (340 miles) would leave each city around 11:30pm then sit on a siding in the Kingston area (mid point) for 3 hours so it could serve as the first train into the city in the morning for commuters arriving around 8am.


----------



## Seaboard92

Look at the various NightJets they manage to service their markets often with an hour or two long stop somewhere in the middle of the night. While it is true they are doing all sorts of drilling to the consist with parts going to three or more cities usually. The Night Owl is the slowest of all of the Regionals though with a very relaxed timetable.


----------



## fdaley

NS VIA Fan said:


> Back in the early 2000s.....VIA's overnight 'Enterprise' between Montreal and Toronto (340 miles) would leave each city around 11:30pm then sit on a siding in the Kingston area (mid point) for 3 hours so it could serve as the first train into the city in the morning for commuters arriving around 8am.



I loved that train on my one trip on it, I think in 2001. I slept through the layover and enjoyed the continental breakfast in the Park car on the way into Montreal. I also remember that our departure from Toronto was delayed until about midnight as we waited for a delayed connection from the International from Chicago.


----------



## Tlcooper93

fdaley said:


> I loved that train on my one trip on it, I think in 2001. I slept through the layover and enjoyed the continental breakfast in the Park car on the way into Montreal. I also remember that our departure from Toronto was delayed until about midnight as we waited for a delayed connection from the International from Chicago.



The last time I road the Night Owl was back in 2001 as well. It is an enjoyable service, and I think it will compliment the Acela really well.


----------



## Heading North

Yes it’s great to have something to get excited about—and will be good news especially for getting up to Maine etc. But if it’s truly deadheading WAS-NPN, how much would they really save on an SCA? Some revenue has gotta beat no revenue...


----------



## Tlcooper93

Heading North said:


> Yes it’s great to have something to get excited about—and will be good news especially for getting up to Maine etc. But if it’s truly deadheading WAS-NPN, how much would they really save on an SCA? Some revenue has gotta beat no revenue...



This is a good question, and I am very curious as well about this. I know for sure a market for BOS-NPN overnight does exist (I myself even have reason to take it), but I suppose that anyone going south can just transfer to buisness class for the remainder of the journey (and northwards people can just transfer at WAS). 

My question for all of this is why now? There are obvious possible answers, but I'm curious what everyone else thinks about why they chose to bring back the sleeper during these times, especially when sleeper/LD trains are not doing so hot.


----------



## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> Back in the early 2000s.....VIA's overnight 'Enterprise' between Montreal and Toronto (340 miles) would leave each city around 11:30pm then sit on a siding in the Kingston area (mid point) for 3 hours so it could serve as the first train into the city in the morning for commuters arriving around 8am.


Not sure if I would like that method of 'killing time'...
I would prefer if they would simply open the train for early occupancy, and depart later, and still run a leisurely schedule. Or arrive early and allow occupancy to a decent time. That was how The Pullman Company operated.


----------



## railiner

Heading North said:


> Yes it’s great to have something to get excited about—and will be good news especially for getting up to Maine etc. But if it’s truly deadheading WAS-NPN, how much would they really save on an SCA? Some revenue has gotta beat no revenue...


I wonder if someone was ticketed from Boston to points south of Washington, if they would let them occupy their room beyond Washington, without the attendant? Or would that present a safety or other operating issue? I would imagine they might want to 'make up' the room prior to the attendant leaving. Or the train crew might have to periodically monitor the car, if passenger's were still in it...?


----------



## HammerJack

railiner said:


> Agreed that this is one train where speed is not at all important. That is why they allow such relatively long dwell times at stations. Plenty of time to handle baggage, and in the past, US Mail and Package Express.


There is one other train that speed doesn’t matter that I can think of. The Sunset Limited arrival in LAX is, in my opinion, totally okay to arrive late. In fact, I’d rather get off at 7:30 AM than 5:35 AM lol. Anyways, back on topic.


----------



## NES28

A few days ago there was discussion of sleeping cars, comparing European vs. U.S. standards of privacy. People should watch this High Speed Rail Alliance webinar originally presented March 5, 2021 hosted by Kurt Bauer, Director, High Speed and Long Distance Passenger Services and New Rail Business, OBB. OBB now operates most of the sleeping car services in Europe. He describes, and shows photos of, the new overnight trainsets (i.e. several cars semi-permanently coupled together), now being delivered Brown Bag Lunch: OBB on Operating Austrian Passenger Rail 
. It turns out that Europeans are no longer comfortable sharing open compartments with strangers either. In the new cars even the lowest-priced sleeping cubicles are fully lockable. Lots of interesting discussion.


----------



## Tlcooper93

NES28 said:


> A few days ago there was discussion of sleeping cars, comparing European vs. U.S. standards of privacy. People should watch this High Speed Rail Alliance webinar originally presented March 5, 2021 hosted by Kurt Bauer, Director, High Speed and Long Distance Passenger Services and New Rail Business, OBB. OBB now operates most of the sleeping car services in Europe. He describes, and shows photos of, the new overnight trainsets (i.e. several cars semi-permanently coupled together), now being delivered Brown Bag Lunch: OBB on Operating Austrian Passenger Rail
> . It turns out that Europeans are no longer comfortable sharing open compartments with strangers either. In the new cars even the lowest-priced sleeping cubicles are fully lockable. Lots of interesting discussion.



Can 100% recommend this, as well as all of the webinars the hsrail.org puts on. 
All of them are very informative.


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> I wonder if someone was ticketed from Boston to points south of Washington, if they would let them occupy their room beyond Washington, without the attendant? Or would that present a safety or other operating issue? I would imagine they might want to 'make up' the room prior to the attendant leaving. Or the train crew might have to periodically monitor the car, if passenger's were still in it...?


I wondered that same thing myself. At the very least you'd move to the BC car, unless two separate tickets were required.


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Agreed that this is one train where speed is not at all important. That is why they allow such relatively long dwell times at stations. Plenty of time to handle baggage, and in the past, US Mail and Package Express.


Did you notice that 65/66/67 has a significantly faster schedule between NYP and WAS than the Silvers or the Crescent?


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> I wondered that same thing myself. At the very least you'd move to the BC car, unless two separate tickets were required.


If the reservation system programmed to say that there is no Sleeper service south of WAS it will of course not issue a Sleeper ticket south of WAS. It has no idea about whether there is a deadhead Sleeping car in the consist or not. It will in all likelihood issue two tickets.

OTOH, if it is programmed to say that there is Sleeper service south of WAS, but no boarding is allowed southbound from WAS and south, then one could get a single ticket. It is all upto what policy is programmed into the rez system.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> 125 if the assigned Sleeper is a VLII, 110 if it is a VLI until the VLIs are cleared for 125 I would presume.
> 
> OTOH I don't think any of the trains carrying Sleepers on the NEC (including now65/66/67) really require to hit 125mph to maintain their section times.


I thought the VI was rated for 125, whoops


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> I thought the VI was rated for 125, whoops


They were supposed to get uprated. I am not sure if that was completed. Maybe someone closer to NEC ops knows for sure.


----------



## Cal

\


jis said:


> Did you notice that 65/66/67 has a significantly faster schedule between NYP and WAS than the Silvers or the Crescent?


Well the LD trains have a top speed of 110 due to the VI's, so I would assume that would account for a few minutes. Plus padding?

EDIT:


jis said:


> They were supposed to get uprated. I am not sure if that was completed. Maybe someone closer to NEC ops knows for sure.


Got it


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> Well the LD trains have a top speed of 110 due to the VI's, so I would assume that would account for a few minutes. Plus padding?


What is even more interesting is that the block time between NYP and WAS has changed relatively little for the Florida trains or the Crescent since 1950, when there was not much official 110mph either 

At least the Florida trains were much faster South of WAS, but not between NYP and WAS, and they are only very marginally faster between NYP and WAS now than back then!


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> If the reservation system programmed to say that there is no Sleeper service south of WAS it will of course not issue a Sleeper ticket south of WAS. It has no idea about whether there is a deadhead Sleeping car in the consist or not. It will in all likelihood issue two tickets.
> 
> OTOH, if it is programmed to say that there is Sleeper service south of WAS, but no boarding is allowed southbound from WAS and south, then one could get a single ticket. It is all upto what policy is programmed into the rez system.


I guess we'll find out soon. It would be poor planning if someone tried to ticket from BOS to any point south of WAS and the system returned "No rooms available" when there was as far as WAS. I suspect there will be a fair number of trial bookings once this is online.


----------



## John Santos

Tlcooper93 said:


> This is a good question, and I am very curious as well about this. I know for sure a market for BOS-NPN overnight does exist (I myself even have reason to take it), but I suppose that anyone going south can just transfer to buisness class for the remainder of the journey (and northwards people can just transfer at WAS).
> 
> My question for all of this is why now? There are obvious possible answers, but I'm curious what everyone else thinks about why they chose to bring back the sleeper during these times, especially when sleeper/LD trains are not doing so hot.



I used to travel Boston to Richmond several times a year, but never thought of taking the train. My customer's building was on Staple Mills Road, about a mile from RVR, so it would have been extremely convenient. (They moved their computer center to Philadelphia in 2012 and I took the Acela there a bunch of times.) So a roomette on the 67/66 BOS->RVR->BOS would have been great!

As to "Why now?" The new VII sleepers are coming online, so they currently have a surplus. Plus the COVID service reductions might make more VI's available. Maybe they were planning to retire some of the VI's and replace them with VII's and decided to keep them in service instead and use the opportunity to increase service? That would definitely be a GOOD THING (TM).*

[*] there used to be a smiley for registered trademarks, but it seems to have vanished. There was both a circled "R" and a "TM", but both appear to be gone now. I suspect the Organization of Smiley Exporting Countries is creating artificial shortages to drive up prices.


----------



## Tlcooper93

John Santos said:


> I used to travel Boston to Richmond several times a year, but never thought of taking the train. My customer's building was on Staple Mills Road, about a mile from RVR, so it would have been extremely convenient. (They moved their computer center to Philadelphia in 2012 and I took the Acela there a bunch of times.) So a roomette on the 67/66 BOS->RVR->BOS would have been great!
> 
> As to "Why now?" The new VII sleepers are coming online, so they currently have a surplus. Plus the COVID service reductions might make more VI's available. Maybe they were planning to retire some of the VI's and replace them with VII's and decided to keep them in service instead and use the opportunity to increase service? That would definitely be a GOOD THING (TM).*
> 
> [*] there used to be a smiley for registered trademarks, but it seems to have vanished. There was both a circled "R" and a "TM", but both appear to be gone now. I suspect the Organization of Smiley Exporting Countries is creating artificial shortages to drive up prices.



This was my thought as well.
The 50 new VII's definitely help, and probably make the original excuse for discontinuing the Night Owl, "equipment shortages," no longer viable. 

It seems that Amtrak is more sleeper car friendly now than it has been for the past 15 years.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> I guess we'll find out soon. It would be poor planning if someone tried to ticket from BOS to any point south of WAS and the system returned "No rooms available" when there was as far as WAS. I suspect there will be a fair number of trial bookings once this is online.


The way the rez system seems to work these days, if they populate it correctly it should show the Sleeper/BC or Sleeper/Coach combo properly. But they have to set it up to do so.


----------



## fdaley

Tlcooper93 said:


> It seems that Amtrak is more sleeper car friendly now than it has been for the past 15 years.



As long as the people riding them don't need to eat. 

But in this case, because of the schedule and the comparatively short overall trip duration, meal service isn't needed. So it might be the one Amtrak sleeper route I'll ride this year.


----------



## Maglev

Tlcooper93 said:


> The 50 new VII's...



There are only 25 VII sleepers.

Another example of AMtrak promoting sleepers is the seasonal addition of a second sleeper on the Portland section of the _Empire Builder._


----------



## NS VIA Fan

railiner said:


> Not sure if I would like that method of 'killing time'...
> I would prefer if they would simply open the train for early occupancy, and depart later......



The 1130pm departure worked well for someone attending a ball game, hockey or theatre and still offered a reasonable after midnight arrival home in Port Hope, Cobourg or Belleville out of Toronto.....or Cornwall and Brockville on the Montreal end. The first train from Kingston to Toronto in the morning and right up 'till Covide had a schedule almost identical to the Enterprise and there was still an evening train to Kingston although it has operated earlier the last few years.

The Kingston lay-over didn't matter much to through passengers......but it allowed VIA to capture the late evening/early morning market. The original plan had been to operate via Ottawa which would have accounted for a lot of the lay-over time in Kingston.

But all a moot point now. The Sleepers just never caught on and the overnight Toronto<>Montreal Coaches were only busy on Friday and Sunday night.....but VIA has still been able to keep that late night/early morning Kingston market roughly on the Enterprise schedule.


----------



## Exvalley

Isn’t the issue making sleepers available south of WAS that there is no crew base in NPN for sleeper attendants?


----------



## Big Iron

Exvalley said:


> Isn’t the issue making sleepers available south of WAS that there is no crew base in NPN for sleeper attendants?


If I recall correctly, when I rode 65 back in the sleeping car days the SCA was based in BOS and overnighted in NPN.


----------



## Palmland

Big Iron said:


> If I recall correctly, when I rode 65 back in the sleeping car days the SCA was based in BOS and overnighted in NPN


Would they even need to overnight? Make the same day turn like the equipment does and stay on duty for the round trip. No different than a two night west coast train except the SCA could have a few hours of down time in NPN.

The Richmond-Williamsburg area is growing fast and will soon become an extension of the NEC. With a bit of marketing Amtrak should at least try selling sleeper space. It’s a lot different than in the days of the Twilight Shoreliner.


----------



## neroden

Good news. The mystifying absence of service into Virginia remains mystifying; I do wonder if it would be more effective to reroute 66/67 to Norfolk an provide sleeper cars along that route (not an option back in 2001).


----------



## Acela150

Big Iron said:


> If I recall correctly, when I rode 65 back in the sleeping car days the SCA was based in BOS and overnighted in NPN.


Bingo! 


Palmland said:


> Would they even need to overnight?


Yes. The union agreement calls for it.


----------



## jiml

Mailliw said:


> Nope, not sleeping with a toilet at my feet.


Oh, to be young again.


----------



## OBS

Exvalley said:


> Isn’t the issue making sleepers available south of WAS that there is no crew base in NPN for sleeper attendants?


No, they would go to the hotel just like the Cafe LSA does.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Did you notice that 65/66/67 has a significantly faster schedule between NYP and WAS than the Silvers or the Crescent?


Well, I haven't really perused the timetables intensely ever since they stopped issuing paper ones a few years ago, but since they no longer have to switch in or out the Executive Sleeper, or the bulk mail cars at NYP, as well as not loading package express at other stations, it is not at all surprising. Besides that, the long distance trains need time to load a higher proportion of elderly passenger's or other's needing red cap assistance at intermediate station stops...


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## Seaboard92

It wouldn't surprise me if they are trying to crew this out of Washington which does have a sleeper base for the Capitol Limited. 

The worst part of this will be the arrival into DC and NYC where the attendant will probably wake everyone up at four AM to refreshen the room so that they themselves can get off on time. If there was ever a pet peeve of mine that is it. Every time I'm on the train into Chicago they kick you out of the room for five to ten minutes once you get past South Bend. Personally I think we should just have the coach cleaners handle that work. It would be better from a customer comfort standpoint.


----------



## bms

I've never taken the Acela Express or the Night Owl. With this new service, I definitely am thinking about a trip to the East Coast to take the Acela Express and the Night Owl Sleeper between Boston and Washington. I doubt I'd sleep much but it'd be nice to look out on the Northeast Corridor from a sleeper bed.


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## jamess

I would love for the 2nd Roanoke train to be a sleeper.

Current trains depart at~6am and arrive at ~11pm.

So a morning arrival and late departure would be very nice, and they could simply turn the same train


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## west point

It may be if the night owl takes off with ridership that Amtrak could run it with a Bag - Sleeper BOS <> NPN and regular V-1 Bos <>-WASH ?


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## Kimo

At that speed, you would arrive in Washington at something like 4:00 a.m. Then what?? Even at what were conventional speeds at the time (60s and 70s), the Night Owl got o DC at about 5:30. The railroad let sleeping passengers lie until 7:30, I believe.


----------



## neroden

Seaboard92 said:


> f there was ever a pet peeve of mine that is it. Every time I'm on the train into Chicago they kick you out of the room for five to ten minutes once you get past South Bend. Personally I think we should just have the coach cleaners handle that work. It would be better from a customer comfort standpoint.


It remains utterly bizarre that they don't. This was a short-term cost-cutting decision made decades ago, a change from pre-Amtrak practice.

There are enough sleeper trains handled out of Chicago that they should reverse this and have permanent staff stationed at Chicago do the cleaning and restocking after everyone is off the train; it's madness to have the OBS doing it while annoying the customers.

It's perhaps more understandable at a terminus which doesn't have enough sleepers coming in to provide continuous work for a station-based staff (perhaps Miami, with its two trains per day?) but at Chicago it's just crazy not to have station-based staff doing this.


----------



## jis

Kimo said:


> At that speed, you would arrive in Washington at something like 4:00 a.m. Then what?? Even at what were conventional speeds at the time (60s and 70s), the Night Owl got o DC at about 5:30. The railroad let sleeping passengers lie until 7:30, I believe.


Between New York and Washington DC 65/66/67 have more or less the same block time as any other NE Regional. I don't understand why people are all hung up and bent out of shape about speed. They pretty much travel at the same speed as most of the NE Regionals.

They also have similar block times between NYP and NHV. They have slightly longer block time between NHV and BOS. Most of the additional time is spent sitting at the platform at NHV and NYP.

Because there is that more or less two hours of dwell time in the schedule, it is easy to run it at a slower speed if needed, like with diesel substitution or through OHE work areas without impacting the OTP much at the end points.

This has been the way the Night Owl and the Federal operated too, since forever.


----------



## PVD

west point said:


> It may be if the night owl takes off with ridership that Amtrak could run it with a Bag - Sleeper BOS <> NPN and regular V-1 Bos <>-WASH ?


Unless something changes in a major way, I don't believe you can legally sell space in a VL Bag Dorm, it has no ADA space.


----------



## Seaboard92

jamess said:


> I would love for the 2nd Roanoke train to be a sleeper.
> 
> Current trains depart at~6am and arrive at ~11pm.
> 
> So a morning arrival and late departure would be very nice, and they could simply turn the same train



What they could do is just run a section from Roanoke-Washington and combine it into the Night Owl at DC. Then it could service both destinations. Of course it would add more work on the DC switching crews which I'm sure they would absolutely love.


----------



## AG1

Mailliw said:


> Nope, not sleeping with a toilet at my feet.


The Viewliner 1 toilets are seaed with a heavy gasketed cover and are dry when not in use. The water flows only when flushed and the contents is forcefully sucked away by the vacuum system. The toilets are not open like the public toilets or the ones in your home.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Seaboard92 said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if they are trying to crew this out of Washington which does have a sleeper base for the Capitol Limited.
> 
> The worst part of this will be the arrival into DC and NYC where the attendant will probably wake everyone up at four AM to refreshen the room so that they themselves can get off on time. If there was ever a pet peeve of mine that is it. Every time I'm on the train into Chicago they kick you out of the room for five to ten minutes once you get past South Bend. Personally I think we should just have the coach cleaners handle that work. It would be better from a customer comfort standpoint.



When I took the Night Owl in ‘01 and ‘02, I don’t recall them waking anyone up for NYP. I think there probably are not many people using that stop. They did not make an announcement, and I dont remember hearing the intercom until DC. Obviously, things could be different now.

That said, making people get up early on an overnight, 9 hour train, is silly, and doesn't make any sense, so I doubt they would do something like that.


----------



## me_little_me

PVD said:


> Unless something changes in a major way, I don't believe you can legally sell space in a VL Bag Dorm, it has no ADA space.


Neither does the Transdorm superliner AFAIK but they sell roomettes in that car.


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Neither does the Transdorm superliner AFAIK but they sell roomettes in that car.


AFAIR most Transdorms have an ADA bedroom downstairs. There are only some that don't. Now whether Amtrak always sells that accommodation is a different matter.


----------



## Ryan

There also aren't any trains that run with Transdorms that don't have a regular sleeper with an ADA room in it next door.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> There also aren't any trains that run with Transdorms that don't have a regular sleeper with an ADA room in it next door.


I think he was mentioning the ADA room in transdorm because the FRA ADA regulation insists that each car with passenger accommodation must have an ADA accommodation. Not in the next car, but in the same car, silly as it may seem to many.


----------



## fdaley

Seaboard92 said:


> What they could do is just run a section from Roanoke-Washington and combine it into the Night Owl at DC. Then it could service both destinations. Of course it would add more work on the DC switching crews which I'm sure they would absolutely love.



Didn't they do this with the Hilltopper years ago?


----------



## MARC Rider

Seaboard92 said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if they are trying to crew this out of Washington which does have a sleeper base for the Capitol Limited.
> 
> The worst part of this will be the arrival into DC and NYC where the attendant will probably wake everyone up at four AM to refreshen the room so that they themselves can get off on time. If there was ever a pet peeve of mine that is it. Every time I'm on the train into Chicago they kick you out of the room for five to ten minutes once you get past South Bend. Personally I think we should just have the coach cleaners handle that work. It would be better from a customer comfort standpoint.


Actually, with a train like the Capitol, where they know you aren't going to need the bedding after you wake up, why don't they just collect the bedding while they're making up the room while you're showering or having breakfast? Then, no need to bother you while you're sitting in the room. Your suggestion about having the coach cleaners handle that is a good one. Or they could just pay the SCAs to stay on board for the time needed after arrival and handle it after the passengers depart.

Same thing for the cafe attendants. Just pay them to arrive early to set up and start serving as soon as the train starts loading up and then stay later so they can serve customers all the way into the terminating station. I know they're saving money by cutting their hours, but they're also leaving money on the table by not being able to serve customers.. A cafe attendant on the Northeast regional told me they were cutting hours because of Covid last summer when I came up after the train left Baltimore (45-50 minutes into the trip), and he was still setting up. I hope the Covid Relief money will allow Amtrak to restore those hours to them.


----------



## Mailliw

I know, but I just can't get over the "ick factor". And that's not even taking traveling with a companion into account.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> AFAIR most Transdorms have an ADA bedroom downstairs. There are only some that don't. Now whether Amtrak always sells that accommodation is a different matter.


When I was in a transdorm there was a ladies lounge, I don't think I've seen a transdorm with a ADA bedroom ever.


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> When I was in a transdorm there was a ladies lounge, I don't think I've seen a transdorm with a ADA bedroom ever.


How many distinct Transdorms have you been in? Not all of them have the ADA room.

Also the FRA ADA regulations are clear. Amtrak breaking the law or ignoring regulations is not exactly unheard of either.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> How many distinct Transdorms have you been in? Not all of them have the ADA room.
> 
> Also the FRA ADA regulations are clear. Amtrak breaking the law or ignoring regulations is not exactly unheard of either.


To be fair, not many. I just thought all of them had a ladies lounge.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> How many distinct Transdorms have you been in? Not all of them have the ADA room.
> 
> Also the FRA ADA regulations are clear. Amtrak breaking the law or ignoring regulations is not exactly unheard of either.



I don’t remember seeing one with a ADA room and I’ve been in a decent number. That being said, it’s not something I was looking for or concerned about. 

There are superliner coaches that don’t have lower level seating available, are those against the ADA rules as well? (Baggage coach).


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I don’t remember seeing one with a ADA room and I’ve been in a decent number. That being said, it’s not something I was looking for or concerned about.
> 
> There are superliner coaches that don’t have lower level seating available, are those against the ADA rules as well? (Baggage coach).


Upon further query, it appears that the Superliners are grandfathered relative to the ADA regulation mentioned by me since the regulations came after the cars, and they have not been substantially rebuilt since then.


----------



## PVD

Even if they can do it on a grandfathered car, they can't do it on a new car which the VL-2 are.


----------



## Mailliw

Cal said:


> To be fair, not many. I just thought all of them had a ladies lounge.


Dare I ask why ladies need their own lounge? I could see how that would be helpful to nursing mothers in coach, but in a sleeping cat?


----------



## OBS

Mailliw said:


> Dare I ask why ladies need their own lounge? I could see how that would be helpful to nursing mothers in coach, but in a sleeping cat?


It is a dated concept that was still around when these were built. Presumably to provide space for doing makeup, fixing hair, etc. 


crescent-zephyr said:


> I don’t remember seeing one with a ADA room and I’ve been in a decent number. That being said, it’s not something I was looking for or concerned about.
> 
> There are superliner coaches that don’t have lower level seating available, are those against the ADA rules as well? (Baggage coach).


I think about 1/3 of them were built with the ADA room. But the way these cars are switched in and out of service, there is no way it could be reliably sold to the public.


----------



## PVD

Most of the online diagrams for that car do show the H Room, although in the times I've had a room in one I have never seen it occupied.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> Even if they can do it on a grandfathered car, they can't do it on a new car which the VL-2 are.


Exactly!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Mailliw said:


> Dare I ask why ladies need their own lounge? I could see how that would be helpful to nursing mothers in coach, but in a sleeping cat?



The old heritage cars had men’s and ladies lounges in coaches. Growing up I still remember how the men’s lounge was filled with smoke - those were the days right?  haha.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> The old heritage cars had men’s and ladies lounges in coaches. Growing up I still remember how the men’s lounge was filled with smoke - those were the days right?  haha.


Yes. Those Long Distance Coaches were quite a different breed from the current ones. They had many fewer seats AFAIR, and lounges at both ends. I remember riding those on the Southern Crescent and later on the Amtrak Crescent, before they went bye bye.

Oh, and those wonderful Sleepy Hollow seats!


----------



## Maglev

So the rooms are loaded in Arrow now. On April 20, a Roomette from Boston to Washington is $288, and a Bedroom is $323.


----------



## Exvalley

Maglev said:


> So the rooms are loaded in Arrow now. On April 20, a Roomette from Boston to Washington is $288, and a Bedroom is $323.


That's a good price for a bedroom!


----------



## Palmetto

Mailliw said:


> I know, but I just can't get over the "ick factor". And that's not even taking traveling with a companion into account.



I imagine you would not like camping, then.


----------



## jruff001

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, with a train like the Capitol, where they know you aren't going to need the bedding after you wake up, why don't they just collect the bedding while they're making up the room while you're showering or having breakfast? Then, no need to bother you while you're sitting in the room. Your suggestion about having the coach cleaners handle that is a good one. Or they could just pay the SCAs to stay on board for the time needed after arrival and handle it after the passengers depart.


They do more than just strip the beds. They have to make them up with clean linen for the return trip.

There are also logistical issues with having the OBS crew remain onboard for any length of time after arrival at a terminal. Generally the HEP is cut and removed to be serviced or used elsewhere (so no power / lights / A/C or heat while finishing their work), then a yard engine comes by shortly after to haul the (dark) consist to the yards for servicing or washing, etc. and to clear the platform for another train to use. So remaining crew could be stuck on board for a long time before getting to a place where they can detrain.

Not saying it can't be done, but there are (as usual) considerations and trade-offs that would have to be made that might not be obvious to passengers. And of course the biggie with having an employee based at the terminal strip and remake the beds is $. Why pay a whole other set of employees to do that work when right now the SCAs do it at no additional cost to Amtrak?


----------



## Tlcooper93

Maglev said:


> So the rooms are loaded in Arrow now. On April 20, a Roomette from Boston to Washington is $288, and a Bedroom is $323.



Booked.
Been hoping for this for a few years now. can't wait.


----------



## Exvalley

I was hoping that the system would price a two-night ticket from Boston to Chicago with a change of trains in Washington.

It doesn't.

Theoretically, you could take the train to Washington, have a leisurely breakfast, and then hop on the Cardinal.


----------



## Tlcooper93

I noticed that there will be checked bicycle service on 65 - 67.
Does this mean that a Viewliner baggage car will be on this train?


----------



## Exvalley

Tlcooper93 said:


> I noticed that there will be checked bicycle service on 65 - 67.
> Does this mean that a Viewliner baggage car will be on this train?


Or will it be one of those modified café cars with bike racks that used to run on the Lake Shore Limited?


----------



## MARC Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> I noticed that there will be checked bicycle service on 65 - 67.
> Does this mean that a Viewliner baggage car will be on this train?


There has been a Viewliner baggage car on that train since they started running viewliner baggage cars. And before that, 65/66/67 had heritage baggage cars. That train had the only baggage service in the NEC north of New York.


----------



## keelhauled

The press release is out. It says that "Private room customers will be offered complimentary Metropolitan Lounge access at Washington Union and Boston South stations, as well as a complimentary alcoholic beverage upon boarding and continental breakfast before arrival."


----------



## Cal

keelhauled said:


> The press release is out. It says that "Private room customers will be offered complimentary Metropolitan Lounge access at Washington Union and Boston South stations, as well as a complimentary alcoholic beverage upon boarding and continental breakfast before arrival."


Great, let's see what Amtrak says a continental breakfast is for this service


----------



## Mailliw

So if the SCA kicks you out of your room early are you allowed back in afterwards? If so what's to stop you from just pulling the beds down again?



Exvalley said:


> That's a good price for a bedroom!


Freakishly so, I wonder if it'sglitch? cj?



Palmetto said:


> I imagine you would not like camping, then.


I haven't been camping since I was a kid and my family vacations were always in a camper at a campground. Toilet still it's own cubicle. Even a summer camp we did keep chamberpots in our tents (though we did pee the woods alot).


----------



## Cal

I don't know how I feel about the in-room toilets, I've read a handful of not-so-great comments. I think I'd be OK travelling in one, but if I could avoid it, I definitely would!


----------



## Steve4031

I just got a schedule change notice for my trip on 97 in a couple of weeks 97 was originally scheduled into Miami at 6:39. It is now scheduled for 7:09 pm. They added 30 minutes for some reason which I assume is track work somewhere.


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> Great, let's see what Amtrak says a continental breakfast is for this service


Yeah! Depends what continent. 

If it's Antarctica, you get a glass of water - with ice!

If it's Australia, you get and empty glass of water and no ice - the water fell out of the upside down glass!

If it's Europe, you get delicious meats and cheeses on freshly baked bread and real butter and mucus (or is that muesli)

If it's North America, you get cold packaged sugar-laden cereal and packaged muffin with lots of preservatives and artificial flavors.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Yeah! Depends what continent.
> 
> If it's Antarctica, you get a glass of water - with ice!
> 
> If it's Australia, you get and empty glass of water and no ice - the water fell out of the upside down glass!
> 
> If it's Europe, you get delicious meats and cheeses on freshly baked bread and real butter and mucus (or is that muesli)
> 
> If it's North America, you get cold packaged sugar-laden cereal and packaged muffin with lots of preservatives and artificial flavors.


Seems about right


----------



## Mailliw

keelhauled said:


> The press release is out. It says that "Private room customers will be offered complimentary Metropolitan Lounge access at Washington Union and Boston South stations, as well as a complimentary alcoholic beverage upon boarding and continental breakfast before arrival."


Nice. I notice that that press release seems to be aimed at travelers not familiar with sleeper travel and it doesn't mention toilets one way or the other.


----------



## PVD

If they promise toilets or no toilets it locks them into which car is on the train. A few people care, most probably don't.


----------



## RebelRider

railiner said:


> RebelRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> As of right now, there are no plans to remove/add the sleeper at WAS. It will deadhead between WAS-NPN. Don't really understand this one. Perhaps the ridership/revenue estimates south of WAS wouldn't cover the cost of an SCA down and back.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it will free up table space in the dinette...thinking the train crew between WAS and NPN might move their "office" there....
Click to expand...


I'm sure the WAS crews are really looking forward to their new office car. Don't want to inconvenience any passengers looking for a café table once they reopen. It's a split-club, so not many tables to begin with. Passengers first!



neroden said:


> Good news. The mystifying absence of service into Virginia remains mystifying; I do wonder if it would be more effective to reroute 66/67 to Norfolk an provide sleeper cars along that route (not an option back in 2001).



I'm now wondering if the State of Virginia has something to do with this. Perhaps the addition of a sleeper would change the cost allocations, and create a bigger bill for VA to pay. Virginia is certainly pro-rail, but maybe not so much appetite for sleeping car service. I still would lean towards low ridership/revenue estimates being the primary driver of this decision, though.


----------



## railiner

If they put the sleeper right behind the engine, it wouldn't take any extra time to just remove/add it at Washington with the electric engine. At least between Washington and New Haven, there are no grade crossing horn blasts...not sure if they have removed all of them from there to Boston yet....


----------



## MARC Rider

Cal said:


> I don't know how I feel about the in-room toilets, I've read a handful of not-so-great comments. I think I'd be OK travelling in one, but if I could avoid it, I definitely would!


If I'm traveling by myself in a roomette, the in-room toilet in the V-1 sleepers is a non-issue, because I sleep in the upper bunk. This allows me to avoid sleeping by the toilet, and also be able to use the seats all night.

Traveling 2 in a roomette is another matter. Using the in-room toilet requires exiling your roommate into the hall while you're using it. Obviously a problem at night. When I did traveled with somebody, I just put on my shoes and walked down to the coaches to relieve myself. It's a bit of a nuisance, as you have to walk through at least 3 cars before you get to the first coach, given that Long-distance Amfleet cafe cars don't have a restroom. I guess when I ride on a train with V-2 sleepers, I'll be able to use the common restroom in that sleeper even if I'm booked into a V-1.

However, when all is said and done, the in-room toilet isn't really all that gross. The whole roomette gets cleaned before you use it, and you're the only one using it. The actual commode is very well covered by a lid that serves as the first step to get up to the upper bunk. If you didn't know it was there, you would never guess that it covered a toilet. The main thing to consider is that if you use it while the train is standing at a station (especially one with high-level platforms), be sure to pull the window curtains fully shut!


----------



## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> If I'm traveling by myself in a roomette, the in-room toilet in the V-1 sleepers is a non-issue, because I sleep in the upper bunk. This allows me to avoid sleeping by the toilet, and also be able to use the seats all night.
> 
> Traveling 2 in a roomette is another matter. Using the in-room toilet requires exiling your roommate into the hall while you're using it. Obviously a problem at night. When I did traveled with somebody, I just put on my shoes and walked down to the coaches to relieve myself. It's a bit of a nuisance, as you have to walk through at least 3 cars before you get to the first coach, given that Long-distance Amfleet cafe cars don't have a restroom. I guess when I ride on a train with V-2 sleepers, I'll be able to use the common restroom in that sleeper even if I'm booked into a V-1.
> 
> However, when all is said and done, the in-room toilet isn't really all that gross. The whole roomette gets cleaned before you use it, and you're the only one using it. The actual commode is very well covered by a lid that serves as the first step to get up to the upper bunk. If you didn't know it was there, you would never guess that it covered a toilet. The main thing to consider is that if you use it while the train is standing at a station (especially one with high-level platforms), be sure to pull the window curtains fully shut!


Yeah, I am taking the Cardinal in July, it will be my first experience with a low level LD train (and the NEC). 

Now, about the roomette getting cleaned. I'm really not sure how well they are cleaned. As seen in this video at about 23:46, there is some dirt and grime? Can't find an appropriate word. Anyway, it'd be nice to be assured that Amtrak truly deep cleans all trains and amenities before use..


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> AFAIR most Transdorms have an ADA bedroom downstairs. There are only some that don't. Now whether Amtrak always sells that accommodation is a different matter.


I've never seen the ADA Bedroom in the Transdorm rented out, it's usually occupied by a Crew Member and the downstairs is off limits to Passengers


----------



## Palmetto

Mailliw said:


> So if the SCA kicks you out of your room early are you allowed back in afterwards? If so what's to stop you from just pulling the beds down again?
> 
> 
> Freakishly so, I wonder if it'sglitch? cj?
> 
> 
> I haven't been camping since I was a kid and my family vacations were always in a camper at a campground. Toilet still it's own cubicle. Even a summer camp we did keep chamberpots in our tents (though we did pee the woods alot).




You haven't lived until you've done a pit toilet in a BLM campground in the Northwest!

BTW, BLM is the Bureau of Land Management, not Black Lives Matter. Just wanted to be clear on that.


----------



## MARC Rider

Palmetto said:


> You haven't lived until you've done a pit toilet in a BLM campground in the Northwest!


You haven't lived until you've backpacked in a wilderness area of the Sierra Nevada above the tree line, where there are _*no*_ toilets at all, and you have to make your own -- out in the open!


----------



## MARC Rider

Cal said:


> Now, about the roomette getting cleaned. I'm really not sure how well they are cleaned. As seen in this video at about 23:46, there is some dirt and grime? Can't find an appropriate word. Anyway, it'd be nice to be assured that Amtrak truly deep cleans all trains and amenities before use..



Well, I've never had any reason to complain about the cleanliness of the rooms I've occupied. After all, they're sleeping car rooms, not operating rooms. The main thing I'd worry about is smelling the toilet, and that has never happened to me.


----------



## jiml

Well there goes this conversation - right down the...


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> However, when all is said and done, the in-room toilet isn't really all that gross. The whole roomette gets cleaned before you use it, and you're the only one using it.


I don't have a lot of confidence in the quality of cleaning when a room is turned mid-route.


----------



## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> I don't have a lot of confidence in the quality of cleaning when a room is turned mid-route.


I once picked up a room mid-route. (Boarded at Havre on the Empire Builder.) The room was fine.


----------



## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> I once picked up a room mid-route. (Boarded at Havre on the Empire Builder.) The room was fine.


We had to ask the SLA to come to the room to clean the toilet when we boarded mid-route. don't know if she failed to clean it before we boarded or someone just decided to use it after it was cleaned. The latter could very well have been the case.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> We had to ask the SLA to come to the room to clean the toilet when we boarded mid-route. don't know if she failed to clean it before we boarded or someone just decided to use it after it was cleaned. The latter could very well have been the case.


Ouch!


----------



## Dakota 400

MARC Rider said:


> Same thing for the cafe attendants. Just pay them to arrive early to set up and start serving as soon as the train starts loading up and then stay later so they can serve customers all the way into the terminating station. I know they're saving money by cutting their hours, but they're also leaving money on the table by not being able to serve customers..



An irritant for me on my Silver Meteor trip to FLL from WASH was the inability to use the Lounge Car services until the train had reached Alexandria. The attendant had a long line-up in the car waiting for him to open and he did so just before the station stop. There is definitely money being left on the table by some of the arcane rules that are in place.


----------



## OBS

Dakota 400 said:


> An irritant for me on my Silver Meteor trip to FLL from WASH was the inability to use the Lounge Car services until the train had reached Alexandria. The attendant had a long line-up in the car waiting for him to open and he did so just before the station stop. There is definitely money being left on the table by some of the arcane rules that are in place.


This is one of those "self made" Conductor's rules that are made to make their job easier in making sure everyone's ticket is collected, etc.

ETA I used to have a Conductor on the Acela leaving Washington DC that didn't want me to open until after Baltimore(!) He didn't like me because I wouldn't cooperate...LOL


----------



## AmtrakBlue

OBS said:


> This is one of those "self made" Conductor's rules that are made to make their job easier in making sure everyone's ticket is collected, etc.
> 
> ETA I used to have a Conductor on the Acela leaving Washington DC that didn't want me to open until after Baltimore(!) He didn't like me because I wouldn't cooperate...LOL


I don't know why they worry about collecting the tickets - we want our points so we'll wait patiently for them or hunt them down if they don't show up.


----------



## SubwayNut

Don't all longer NEC/Acela trains have two conductors? I feel that on most of my Amtrak trips which are normally CHI to SBN, the conductor will start at the Cafe/Lounge and make their way towards the back. if you get up before your ticket is collected the conductor will intercept you (I've seen it happen) and ask for your ticket before they let you by. On Acela don't they have two conductors? Can't they both start in the Cafe and make their way in the opposite directions intercepting anyone who starts walking towards the cafe?


----------



## jruff001

Dakota 400 said:


> An irritant for me on my Silver Meteor trip to FLL from WASH was the inability to use the Lounge Car services until the train had reached Alexandria. The attendant had a long line-up in the car waiting for him to open and he did so just before the station stop. There is definitely money being left on the table by some of the arcane rules that are in place.


Remember there is only one lounge car attendant. They need periodic meal / rest breaks.

To me it makes sense to couple one of those with a major stop when a lot of tickets will need to be lifted.


----------



## MARC Rider

OBS said:


> This is one of those "self made" Conductor's rules that are made to make their job easier in making sure everyone's ticket is collected, etc.
> 
> ETA I used to have a Conductor on the Acela leaving Washington DC that didn't want me to open until after Baltimore(!) He didn't like me because I wouldn't cooperate...LOL


When I board in Baltimore for a trip to DC, if I'm riding business class, I immediately head up to the cafe car to get my free cup of coffee. I do this before the conductor scans my ticket. Usually, I run into the conductor in passing through the cafe car, heading toward the rear and the BC car. I've never had a problem showing them my ticket and getting it scanned in the cafe car while I'm waiting for my coffee.

I used to ride 67 (which continues into Virginia) down to DC a lot to work if I missed my regular MARC train. After New Carrolton, they'd always make an announcement that the cafe car was going to be closed and would stay closed "until the train leaves Washington." Presumably this is because there's no power while they're changing engines. They also tell you to be sure to use the restroom before you get to Washington, because without power, the restrooms don't work, either.


----------



## Twinkletoes

AG1 said:


> The Viewliner 1 toilets are seaed with a heavy gasketed cover and are dry when not in use. The water flows only when flushed and the contents is forcefully sucked away by the vacuum system. The toilets are not open like the public toilets or the ones in your home.


So very true. I've never found having an in-room toilet to be a problem. And if one has any concerns about freshness, it can always be sprayed inside with disinfectant spray after use. Even before COVID-19, I've always carried a can of disinfectant (Clorox or Lysol) and a packet of disinfectant wipes to spray the sink, fabric seats and carpet and wipe the hard surfaces like the tray tables and arm rests in my sleeper compartment. I also wipe the arms rests and trays in coach. I would rather sanitize a space for my use one time rather than having to plod down the hall and repeatedly having to clean a communal restroom.


----------



## Willbridge

Cal said:


> Great, let's see what Amtrak says a continental breakfast is for this service


And which continent will it be?


----------



## Barb Stout

Palmetto said:


> You haven't lived until you've done a pit toilet in a BLM campground in the Northwest!
> 
> BTW, BLM is the Bureau of Land Management, not Black Lives Matter. Just wanted to be clear on that.


I have observed a marked improvement in pit toilet odor in such facilities through the decades. But then I live in the Southwest. Better living through better engineering!


----------



## Barb Stout

MARC Rider said:


> You haven't lived until you've backpacked in a wilderness area of the Sierra Nevada above the tree line, where there are _*no*_ toilets at all, and you have to make your own -- out in the open!


And haul it out. That hauling out is what stops me from entering certain areas.


----------



## railiner

me_little_me said:


> We had to ask the SLA to come to the room to clean the toilet when we boarded mid-route. don't know if she failed to clean it before we boarded or someone just decided to use it after it was cleaned. The latter could very well have been the case.


This illustrates another reason that rooms should not be serviced until after the occupants have permanently departed at the trains terminus, instead forcing them out prior to that. Even at midpoints, it would be better to have new occupants just wait in the lounge until the room has been made ready.


----------



## Cal

railiner said:


> This illustrates another reason that rooms should not be serviced until after the occupants have permanently departed at the trains terminus, instead forcing them out prior to that. Even at midpoints, it would be better to have new occupants just wait in the lounge until the room has been made ready.


I agree...


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> This illustrates another reason that rooms should not be serviced until after the occupants have permanently departed at the trains terminus, instead forcing them out prior to that. Even at midpoints, it would be better to have new occupants just wait in the lounge until the room has been made ready.


We frequently board the eastbound LSL at BUF and this has been the practice every time. It's usually a request to wait in a vacant room or leave our bags and go for breakfast (pre current dining) while the room is made up.


----------



## Maglev

jruff001 said:


> They need periodic meal / rest breaks.



My funky vision read this as, "They need prolific meal / rest breaks!"

The most irritating LSA service deficiency I have experienced was boarding a tardy northbound _Starlight _in Emeryville. The cafe should have been open for another 20 minutes, but closed right at Emeryville. Many passengers boarded there.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> I don't know why they worry about collecting the tickets - we want our points so we'll wait patiently for them or hunt them down if they don't show up.


Some have been known to tackle down a Conductor on the platform at their destination to get their ticket scanned 

Like me traveling from Philly to Metropark one time, and I really needed those few points on the 30th of December to make Select+ ☺


----------



## jebr

jis said:


> Some have been known to tackle down a Conductor on the platform at their destination to get their ticket scanned
> 
> Like me traveling from Philly to Metropark one time, and I really needed those few points on the 30th of December to make Select+ ☺



Or the 20+ of us that needed to get our ticket scanned in the two or so miles between Berkeley and Emeryville at the 2014 Gathering...


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Some have been known to tackle down a Conductor on the platform at their destination to get their ticket scanned
> 
> Like me traveling from Philly to Metropark one time, and I really needed those few points on the 30th of December to make Select+ ☺


Ditto, I made many Austin- Taylor RTs for B-B-Q to make Select + when the 100 Point Minimum was in effect !


----------



## SubwayNut

I used to book add on points runs on multi-city when I was going somewhere already a lot of time under the old 100 AGR point minimum.

Generally fares from Metropark are the same as from NYP when going to points on the Empire Service (on the Adorondak you could add a free one way from PHL), as long as your layover at each stop was less than 24 hours. 

A couple times I went MET-EWR(went for a ride on the monorail)-NWK one day did a quick NWK-NYP the next day and then on my real trip generally to SYR the next day. I would take NJ Transit and PATH in between.

I was living in Northern Manhattan at the time and would often, almost always on my way home from SYR or MTL (dome car rides) would get off at Yonkers and take the Bee-Line bus home and reverse course the next day for a points run into Penn Station. 

I would generally dangle these segments at the end of trips so if something came up I would just no-show and it wasn't a big deal.


----------



## Dakota 400

jis said:


> Some have been known to tackle down a Conductor on the platform at their destination to get their ticket scanned



Regarding ticket scanning, it was on the Northbound Silver Meteor where I boarded in FLL that my ticket never got scanned. I was concerned about that and questioned my SCA. He said that the Conductor knew I was aboard. I did have the trip properly recorded in my Amtrak Rewards account. But, the situation was odd, I thought.


----------



## Maglev

Dakota 400 said:


> Regarding ticket scanning, it was on the Northbound Silver Meteor where I boarded in FLL that my ticket never got scanned. I was concerned about that and questioned my SCA. He said that the Conductor knew I was aboard. I did have the trip properly recorded in my Amtrak Rewards account. But, the situation was odd, I thought.



I have encountered this also. I think it is within standard operating procedure for the conductor to input that a ticket has been scanned when informed by the SCA that the proper person is in the room.


----------



## jiml

Maglev said:


> I have encountered this also. I think it is within standard operating procedure for the conductor to input that a ticket has been scanned when informed by the SCA that the proper person is in the room.


On our last Amtrak LD trip (Chicago-Manassas on the Cardinal) we didn't even see a conductor until the morning after departure. Our SCA had a clipboard when we boarded, looked at our ticket and that was it for the entire trip.


----------



## PVD

Points can be dealt with, what you really want to avoid is having the balance of a reservation cancelled for a no show.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Dakota 400 said:


> Regarding ticket scanning, it was on the Northbound Silver Meteor where I boarded in FLL that my ticket never got scanned. I was concerned about that and questioned my SCA. He said that the Conductor knew I was aboard. I did have the trip properly recorded in my Amtrak Rewards account. But, the situation was odd, I thought.


It's not really odd for sleeper passengers to not get scanned. The SCA has a manifest and he lets the conductor know if everyone "showed up". The conductor can then "check them off" on his device.


----------



## PVD

Boarding late at night when you want to go to right sleep, or if you are sent straight to the dining car (good old days) because of meal time or late running, I've often been told by the SCA he would let the conductor know.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> It's not really odd for sleeper passengers to not get scanned. The SCA has a manifest and he lets the conductor know if everyone "showed up". The conductor can then "check them off" on his device.


I don't recall a few of my trips, but from what I can remember, I've had my ticket scanned every time.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> I don't recall a few of my trips, but from what I can remember, I've had my ticket scanned every time.


That's not odd either


----------



## jiml

Has anyone done a trial booking to NPN yet? I will if no one else has. Hoping the border re-opens and this is the first Amtrak trip on my list.


----------



## Maglev

It would be nice if they could pull together the new bedding for the Boston to Washington sleepers..


----------



## Cal

Maglev said:


> It would be nice if they could pull together the new bedding for the Boston to Washington sleepers..


What new bedding?


----------



## jis

Dakota 400 said:


> Regarding ticket scanning, it was on the Northbound Silver Meteor where I boarded in FLL that my ticket never got scanned. I was concerned about that and questioned my SCA. He said that the Conductor knew I was aboard. I did have the trip properly recorded in my Amtrak Rewards account. But, the situation was odd, I thought.


OTOH the ticket non scanning can sometimes prove to be advantageous. There have been a few occasions when I was given AGR points for segments that I never traveled but had a ticket for.


----------



## MrMattyMatt

> BTW, does anyone recall if the Slumbercoaches had carpeting, or the easier to clean linoleum floors? Cant' recall...



No no carpeting. I was in a single slumercoach between Chicago and NYC and my parter and her child was in a double. It was in January and I recall the puddles on the floor from snowy/wet shoes, it was like a black rubber floor. How I miss those slumbercoaches. I slept so well except waking up at one point hearing my neighbor snoring below me


----------



## bms

I didn't get scanned one time when my train missed a connection in Pittsburgh, but I got it fixed in a few days.


----------



## Maglev

Cal said:


> What new bedding?



It is a sort of comforter instead of the cheap blanket, and new pillow cases (whether or not the actual pillows or bed sheets are new, I'm not sure). It is currently in use on the _Auto Train._


----------



## Cal

Maglev said:


> It is a sort of comforter instead of the cheap blanket, and new pillow cases (whether or not the actual pillows or bed sheets are new, I'm not sure). It is currently in use on the _Auto Train._


How much more comfortable is it? Does it feel more premium? And are there any videos of it that you know of?


----------



## Maglev

Cal said:


> How much more comfortable is it? Does it feel more premium? And are there any videos of it that you know of?




Here's the thread, and the first post has a short video:






Amtrak teases upgraded bedding/amenities for sleeping cars


In a short video posted to Instagram, Amtrak shows off what appears to be a Viewliner II bedroom (because of the maroon fabric on the headrest) with new bedding and amenities. Lots to dissect in the few seconds of video... On the bed is a new blue/grey comforter. There's a tray with several...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Cal

Maglev said:


> Here's the thread, and the first post has a short video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak teases upgraded bedding/amenities for sleeping cars
> 
> 
> In a short video posted to Instagram, Amtrak shows off what appears to be a Viewliner II bedroom (because of the maroon fabric on the headrest) with new bedding and amenities. Lots to dissect in the few seconds of video... On the bed is a new blue/grey comforter. There's a tray with several...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com


Thanks. I really like the look of it (and the VII), but has it been implemented anywhere other than the Auto Train yet? 

On another note, would love for the bedding and amenity kit to be implemented on *all* routes. And honestly, I would be OK if we didn't get a replacement for the superliners if they just got refurbished to match with the VII's. They simply look so much better and inviting, and closer to those of European sleepers.


----------



## willem

Dakota 400 said:


> Regarding ticket scanning, it was on the Northbound Silver Meteor where I boarded in FLL that my ticket never got scanned. I was concerned about that and questioned my SCA. He said that the Conductor knew I was aboard.





PVD said:


> Points can be dealt with, what you really want to avoid is having the balance of a reservation cancelled for a no show.


Too right. The TA-S said the conductor knew I was aboard the California Zephyr leaving Chicago. Someplace west of Denver, a conductor asked me (as I sat in the room) who I was. It turned out the original conductor had not marked me present and three continuation legs had been cancelled. The conductor got it all straightened out, but he needed to wait until he had cell service. It was a nerve-wracking time, with two lessons: seek out the conductor and ensure the ticket is lifted; and use multiple tickets for multiple legs if a guaranteed connection is not required. (That second lesson has been the subject of multiple threads here on AU.)


----------



## Barb Stout

railiner said:


> This illustrates another reason that rooms should not be serviced until after the occupants have permanently departed at the trains terminus, instead forcing them out prior to that. Even at midpoints, it would be better to have new occupants just wait in the lounge until the room has been made ready.


There have been a few times on the SWC when we have been asked to wait in the sightseeing car upon boarding in Albuquerque while our room is being cleaned.


----------



## Barb Stout

With regard to being scanned in or checked off in order to get AGR points, I have never paid attention to being scanned in or checked off nor have I paid attention to whether I got all the AGR points that I "deserve". How long is it generally between the scan and when the AGR points appear in one's account?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

willem said:


> and use multiple tickets for multiple legs if a guaranteed connection is not required.



I always book separate legs. The few times that there has been a “gauranteed connection” issue, Amtrak staff just looks at my reservations and treats them the same as everyone else. 

I know people say “it’s not guaranteed if you don’t book it together” but in my experiences the connection is still homered the same way. YMMV of course 

I’m not sure why the conductor asked you who you were and not your SCA...


----------



## me_little_me

Cal said:


> Thanks. I really like the look of it (and the VII), but has it been implemented anywhere other than the Auto Train yet?
> 
> On another note, would love for the bedding and amenity kit to be implemented on *all* routes. And honestly, I would be OK if we didn't get a replacement for the superliners if they just got refurbished to match with the VII's. They simply look so much better and inviting, and closer to those of European sleepers.


WHINE! WHINE! WHINE! It's only been a few YEARS since they promised it! Look how long after the VL2 sleepers were delivered before they managed to put them on ONE route. You need to understand Amtrak's plan. The know the millennials prefer "traditional bedding" instead of the modern, more comfortable new "flex linens" so they don't want to rush it. They don't need you oldsters who demand traditional dining and new bedding.
Wait until you see how many decades it takes before they actually put the new engines and Amfleetreplacements in service. Don't expect them to be actually running in your lifetime.
Remember, it doesn't make Amtrak look good when you get what you pay for. Millennials expect to pay more and get less.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> WHINE! WHINE! WHINE! It's only been a few YEARS since they promised it! Look how long after the VL2 sleepers were delivered before they managed to put them on ONE route. You need to understand Amtrak's plan. The know the millennials prefer "traditional bedding" instead of the modern, more comfortable new "flex linens" so they don't want to rush it. They don't need you oldsters who demand traditional dining and new bedding.
> Wait until you see how many decades it takes before they actually put the new engines and Amfleetreplacements in service. Don't expect them to be actually running in your lifetime.
> Remember, it doesn't make Amtrak look good when you get what you pay for. Millennials expect to pay more and get less.


I'm actually quite young 

I don't fully understand why Amtrak would care what millennials think, as I don't think anybody, millennials and 'oldsters' want flex dining, yet they still have it.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not sure why the conductor asked you who you were and not your SCA...


I believe the SCA 'checked' him in at Chicago, and told him the conductor knew he was on board. So the SCA knew he was a paying customer and would not ask who he is. The problem is that the original conductor did not mark him on board, and so the legs were cancelled and he did not see him as a passenger on the system. Therefore, he asked who he was. 

Did I get that right willem?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> I believe the SCA 'checked' him in at Chicago, and told him the conductor knew he was on board. So the SCA knew he was a paying customer and would not ask who he is. The problem is that the original conductor did not mark him on board, and so the legs were cancelled and he did not see him as a passenger on the system. Therefore, he asked who he was.
> 
> Did I get that right willem?



Oh yes I understood that... but why wouldn’t the Conductor ask the SCA who was in “room x” before questioning the passenger?


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh yes I understood that... but why wouldn’t the Conductor ask the SCA who was in “room x” before questioning the passenger?


I mean, I assume he got on in Denver. So he might have just been going throughout the train, checking up, and ran into him before the SCA?


----------



## willem

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not sure why the conductor asked you who you were and not your SCA...


I was there. The attendant wasn't. The manifest said the room was unoccupied. He wanted to clear things up right away. All guesswork, of course.


Cal said:


> Did I get that right willem?


*Cal*, you read that the way I did at first, but then I realized that *crescent-zephyr* was probably asking why the conductor didn't ask the attendant (as *crescent-zephyr* later confirmed).


----------



## Cal

willem said:


> *Cal*, you read that the way I did at first, but then I realized that *crescent-zephyr* was probably asking why the conductor didn't ask the attendant (as *crescent-zephyr* later confirmed).


Gotchya


----------



## Tlcooper93

Cal said:


> I don't recall a few of my trips, but from what I can remember, I've had my ticket scanned every time.



When I did the California Zephyr back in November 2020, I had no ticket scanned, but the random security check did pay us a visit.


----------



## Cal

Tlcooper93 said:


> When I did the California Zephyr back in November 2020, I had no ticket scanned, but the random security check did pay us a visit.





On a quick, unrelated note, I'm now OBS Chief


----------



## Dakota 400

It's interesting to learn of others experiences regarding their ticket being scanned or not. It's appreciated information for me. I would still, however, prefer, seeing my ticket being scanned by the Conductor.


----------



## Cal

Dakota 400 said:


> It's interesting to learn of others experiences regarding their ticket being scanned or not. It's appreciated information for me. I would still, however, prefer, seeing my ticket being scanned by the Conductor.


Me too. Although, I wouldn't mind if the SCA"s could scan it


----------



## me_little_me

I had two coach tickets for a single train. I had to make change to get off at a later stop but the price had gone up so much, it was cheaper to buy a second ticket from the original stop to the new one. The first conductor scanned the first ticket and when he asked where I was getting off, I told him the second city and that's what he put on the card above the seat. The second conductor on the route who got on later scanned the same one as it was still good. I forgot to tell them I had another ticket also. Amtrak got their money - I never canceled it but I didn't get the points. Forgot about that when they scanned it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

willem said:


> I was there. The attendant wasn't. The manifest said the room was unoccupied. He wanted to clear things up right away. All guesswork, of course.



I probably just imagined the scene being a bit more confrontational than it actually was. 

I do wish that Amtrak could set it up so the app updates you when your ticket has been collected.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I do wish that Amtrak could set it up so the app updates you when your ticket has been collected.


A punch should appear in the appropriate line of the e-Ticket image


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> A punch should appear in the appropriate line of the e-Ticket image



Yes!!! This is the single best idea that has ever been mentioned on this site!


----------



## railiner

Cal said:


> Me too. Although, I wouldn't mind if the SCA"s could scan it


I would doubt that would happen. Unlike VIA Rail, there is a very clear division of craft responsibilities, between the operating train crew, and the on board services employees, as per their union contracts. An attendant may inform the conductor of a passenger's presence according to the manifest, but the actual lift or scan of the ticket would be by the conductor, or assistant....


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes!!! This is the single best idea that has ever been mentioned on this site!


The additional script to do this is actually not that hard as long as the data on lifting status is easily accessible.


----------



## willem

crescent-zephyr said:


> I probably just imagined the scene being a bit more confrontational than it actually was.


I had no impression of the conductor being confrontational, just confused by the room being occupied.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Here is a news story from yesterday (3/11/2021) ...

Amtrak Is Adding Private Rooms to Overnight Northeast Regional Trains (msn.com) 

Nothing surprising to those following this thread.


----------



## Palmetto

Does anyone have any stats on occupancy rates for the sleeping car service?


----------



## Chatter163

Palmetto said:


> Does anyone have any stats on occupancy rates for the sleeping car service?


I don't imagine that Amtrak releases such stats.


----------



## Palmetto

Chatter163 said:


> I don't imagine that Amtrak releases such stats.




They do when it's good news. They keep touting the tens of millions of passengers they carried pre-Covid.


----------



## Mailliw

Does the Freedom of Information Act apply to Amtrak by any chance?


----------



## PVD

I've seen FOIA obtained documents from them, so likely yes. If you want to know what tickets were sold now, and are willing to wait long enough for it not to be meaningful, go right ahead. If they don't have a document or record that answers what you wish to know, FOIA doesn't mean they have to make one up special, it just guarantees access to that which they have. Regular revenue reports will show the numbers in due time, since the NEC ridership previously had no sleeper revenue, it should be easy to glean, I'm not sure how they apportion the odd room sold NYP-WAS on LD


----------



## jebr

Mailliw said:


> Does the Freedom of Information Act apply to Amtrak by any chance?



It does - I've obtained some older versions of the service standards manual that way a few years ago. Haven't done so recently. Processing time is usually months, though, so patience is definitely a virtue working with Amtrak's FOIA department.


----------



## jis

The Revenue Report that @PVD alludes to can be found in the Monthly Performance Report. For example, here is the February 2021 Monthly Performance Report.


----------



## niemi24s

FWIW, here's the best I could do for a fare bucket chart for NER 66/67:


It's also been added to the chart for the LD routes which can be found here: Long Distance Train Coach & Sleeper Fares (Buckets) No idea why so many different Coach fares are offered.


----------



## PVD

jebr said:


> It does - I've obtained some older versions of the service standards manual that way a few years ago. Haven't done so recently. Processing time is usually months, though, so patience is definitely a virtue working with Amtrak's FOIA department.


Newer ones are now available pretty easily. Very often organizations or agencies don't make things available on public sites, because it isn't worth the time or effort to make a tiny audience happy. Or the culture of the agency supports secrecy for no intelligent reason. I have a cousin who needed some information from an old FBI investigation (80 years prior) for a book he was writing. They were being their normal obstructionist self righteous idiots. So my cousin sued them in Federal Court and won. Not wanting to be beaten, the FBI appealed to the DC Circuit, and fought to preserve their ability to shield documents from public view, and ultimately prevailed. Since the majority of the material was later discovered to be public record available through the National Archives, it only serves to remind us how some of our tax dollars are spent. An interesting read about a murder of an anthropologist that took place on a reservation in 1931, not a national security interest kind of story.


----------



## WashingtonFlyer

My GF has taken this train now twice from PVD to WAS (and back). The sleepers have been sold out on the days she has travelled and were sold out on the other three days she was considering for travel.


----------



## railiner

Palmetto said:


> Does anyone have any stats on occupancy rates for the sleeping car service?





Chatter163 said:


> I don't imagine that Amtrak releases such stats.


I imagine if finding out is important enough to do the research, you could do fake bookings each day to see how many are available, until you get an idea...?


----------



## Palmetto

railiner said:


> I imagine if finding out is important enough to do the research, you could do fake bookings each day to see how many are available, until you get an idea...?



No, not that important, LOL!


----------



## Tlcooper93

I know that before they discontinued the car back in 03, they have 60-70% load factor.
On the (re)inaugural 67, there was only one other passenger in the sleeper car (aside from MilesInTransit going to BBY).


----------



## jiml

Tlcooper93 said:


> I know that before they discontinued the car back in 03, they have 60-70% load factor.
> On the (re)inaugural 67, there was only one other passenger in the sleeper car (aside from MilesInTransit going to BBY).


Travel will need to stabilize more before any measurement is relevant.


----------



## niemi24s

Added NER 66/67 to a chart previously posted in another thread for comparison:


Good example of "economy of scale" eh?


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> The Revenue Report that @PVD alludes to can be found in the Monthly Performance Report. For example, here is the February 2021 Monthly Performance Report.


Man, seeing the comparisons to last February _hurts_ because I know that's the last month before it all went to hell.


----------



## CTANut

Check out this new video


----------



## cocojacoby

WashingtonFlyer said:


> My GF has taken this train now twice from PVD to WAS (and back). The sleepers have been sold out on the days she has travelled and were sold out on the other three days she was considering for travel.



That's great to hear. May need to add another sleeper Amtrak!


----------



## Tlcooper93

cocojacoby said:


> That's great to hear. May need to add another sleeper Amtrak!


 In Simply Railways video, there looks to be quite a crowd using the Sleeper. 
I think its one of the most practical and useful places to deploy such a car in the whole country. It really is a useful service. Can't believe it took this long to bring it back!


----------



## Mailliw

That's a really encouraging sign. Still they should be using VIIs for this service.


----------



## west point

cocojacoby said:


> That's great to hear. May need to add another sleeper Amtrak!


Probably every available sleeper will be on other LD trains. Selling this train out using 2 sleepers one in each direction just shows the need for more sleepers. But who do you get to build them ?


----------



## railiner

west point said:


> Probably every available sleeper will be on other LD trains. Selling this train out using 2 sleepers one in each direction just shows the need for more sleepers. But who do you get to build them ?


Perhaps they could refurbish some of the Heritage sleepers they have in storage, and install retention tanks, and use them just for this train?
I am not sure of how many there are still around.
The single roomettes would be popular on this route. If it would expedite the refurb, they could just add a public toilet, and remove/disable the ones in the rooms...


----------



## IndyLions

niemi24s said:


> FWIW, here's the best I could do for a fare bucket chart for NER 66/67:



If the loading for this service is as good as is being reported here, then I’d say they got the pricing right.

$150 or $200 hotels wouldn’t be unusual at the endpoints, so that means you are spending $100-$150 for the rail fare.


----------



## cocojacoby

Actually this would be the ideal place to try out a Delta One mini-suite concept . . . just with higher walls.


----------



## Trogdor

railiner said:


> Perhaps they could refurbish some of the Heritage sleepers they have in storage, and install retention tanks, and use them just for this train?
> I am not sure of how many there are still around.
> The single roomettes would be popular on this route. If it would expedite the refurb, they could just add a public toilet, and remove/disable the ones in the rooms...



That has less than a zero percent chance of happening.


----------



## Cal

railiner said:


> Perhaps they could refurbish some of the Heritage sleepers they have in storage, and install retention tanks, and use them just for this train?
> I am not sure of how many there are still around.
> The single roomettes would be popular on this route. If it would expedite the refurb, they could just add a public toilet, and remove/disable the ones in the rooms...


Hahhahahahahahahahahhahahaa. Good joke


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> Perhaps they could refurbish some of the Heritage sleepers they have in storage, and install retention tanks, and use them just for this train?
> I am not sure of how many there are still around.
> The single roomettes would be popular on this route. If it would expedite the refurb, they could just add a public toilet, and remove/disable the ones in the rooms...


While unlikely, weren't some of the Heritage sleepers refitted with retention toilets before retirement? IIRC a handful of the Pacific series were put back into service for a short-lived sleeper train due to a shortage of Viewliners. A couple still show up on the occasional Amtrak business train. The argument against is the same as that for any new service, having to do with putting the "best foot forward" and not using old equipment for new impressions.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> While unlikely, weren't some of the Heritage sleepers refitted with retention toilets before retirement? IIRC a handful of the Pacific series were put back into service for a short-lived sleeper train due to a shortage of Viewliners.


I've never heard anything of the sort, but I am much less informed than many people on here. It wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## jiml

Cal said:


> I've never heard anything of the sort, but I am much less informed than many people on here. It wouldn't surprise me.


I believe the names Pacific Cape, Pacific Patrol, Pacific Command and Pacific Bend might be the ones I'm thinking of. _There is someone here who will know the definitive answer._ Pacific Bend made a recent appearance in the Siemens test train in Michigan.


----------



## Seaboard92

jiml said:


> While unlikely, weren't some of the Heritage sleepers refitted with retention toilets before retirement? IIRC a handful of the Pacific series were put back into service for a short-lived sleeper train due to a shortage of Viewliners. A couple still show up on the occasional Amtrak business train. The argument against is the same as that for any new service, having to do with putting the "best foot forward" and not using old equipment for new impressions.



I believe one or two of the former Southern Pacific ones also ended up being done. I want to say the car I'm currently in the process of acquiring for my latest project is one of those. Fun fact it was on the last Broadway Limited. It's 90 percent original on the inside unlike my Pacific. 



jiml said:


> I believe the names Pacific Cape, Pacific Patrol, Pacific Command and Pacific Bend might be the ones I'm thinking of. _There is someone here who will know the definitive answer._ Pacific Bend made a recent appearance in the Siemens test train in Michigan.



I will do some research for you on this. Pacific Bend most definitely has it done it should be inside the car body next to the bathrooms in a closet on the right hand side of the car if you enter from the vestibule. It's got the superliner system because that is what Amtrak had in stock when they did the retrofit at Beech Grove. Those Pacific cars were the creme of the crop because UP and Amtrak both really babyed the cars and took care of them all the way from 1949 to the 1990s. But those that got the dorm/lounge treatment really got the crap beaten out of them from all of the retrofits. Fun fact they are also the first girder cars Budd built whereas the other dorm/lounges were truss cars. In the truss cars the roof was more load bearing and if you wrecked and the roof was damaged the car was total. Whereas a girder car the roof wasn't load bearing so if it got messed up it could just get fixed. Fun facts you learn when you own a Pacific car.


----------



## Palmetto

According to this website

On Track On Line - Amtrak Passenger Equipment Roster - Rolling Stock

there are no Heritage sleeping cars available to convert. Railiner: were you being facetious, by any chance?


----------



## railiner

Palmetto said:


> According to this website
> 
> On Track On Line - Amtrak Passenger Equipment Roster - Rolling Stock
> 
> there are no Heritage sleeping cars available to convert. Railiner: were you being facetious, by any chance?


On that roster, I see only the "Pacific Bend" as remaining. I thought that perhaps they had 3 or 4 of those in storage. Despite the negativity to my suggestion, I would gladly ride in a restored 10-6 roomette, if it was refurbed with new mattresses, bedding, and seating.
So, no, I was not being facetious.


----------



## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> On that roster, I see only the "Pacific Bend" as remaining. I thought that perhaps they had 3 or 4 of those in storage. Despite the negativity to my suggestion, I would gladly ride in a restored 10-6 roomette, if it was refurbed with new mattresses, bedding, and seating.
> So, no, I was not being facetious.



Oh we are talking about what is remaining. 

Pacific Bend is still around it usually stays with the office cars and wears a 10XXX Number which is the same range of the special service cars. 

Pacific Terrace is still around without it's name it's 10405. I believe it is stored now as a parts donor for the Pacific Bend. Right now the car has good bones, but the interior has been trashed just like all of the crew dorms with the exception of the Bend. 

Of the other heritage cars hanging around. 

Diners
-8530: EX Pennsylvania Railroad Parlor Car "Molly Pitcher" now used as an axle count car, but stored dead at BEE
-8505: EX Northern Pacific No. 462 now used as an axle count car, but stored dead at BEE

Coaches
-7005: EX Pennsylvania Railroad Congressional Coach (Fairly Certain that is the number) used as part of a wire train based in New Jersey

Baggage
-1758: Stored Dead BEE
-1702: Stored Dead BEE
-1757: Stored Dead BEE
-1716: Stored Dead BEE

There are two or three others in New Jersey with the 7005 as well but I don't have the numbers. There might be another hiding around the system somewhere as well that I just don't know about. 

All of the other cars were sold off to various private owners. Would people want to see where things got sent. I believe my list is fairly accurate.


----------



## railiner

Thanks for that update...so with only the one car remaining, scratch my proposal....


----------



## Danib62

Can we talk about the ridiculousness of the pricing for double occupancy? A roomette for one is priced at $289 right now but if you book it for two the price jumps $151 to $440 when a coach ticket is only $34. What gives, it's not like that breakfast box is setting them back much...

(also this is my first post here, hello world!)


----------



## River in Sight

Danib62 said:


> Can we talk about the ridiculousness of the pricing for double occupancy? A roomette for one is priced at $289 right now but if you book it for two the price jumps $151 to $440 when a coach ticket is only $34. What gives, it's not like that breakfast box is setting them back much...
> 
> (also this is my first post here, hello world!)



Agreed. I thought the way it used to work was that each incremental passenger only paid the lowest bucket rail fare, but I guess something must have changed.


----------



## Danib62

On a totally unrelated note: does anyone have any experience sneaking a passenger from coach back into your roomette?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Danib62 said:


> On a totally unrelated note: does anyone have any experience sneaking a passenger from coach back into your roomette?


Seriously, Not a Good Plan!


----------



## OBS

If I were to try it, I would board together with the coach person at the origin station into the sleeper, and tell the Conductor/attendant that you are traveling together and just see where it goes....the worst they can say is no.....


----------



## JontyMort

Bob Dylan said:


> Seriously, Not a Good Plan!


Asking for a friend?


----------



## Bob Dylan

JontyMort said:


> Asking for a friend?


See OBS post!


----------



## daybeers

Danib62 said:


> On a totally unrelated note: does anyone have any experience sneaking a passenger from coach back into your roomette?


You can call Amtrak and ask for their coach ticket to be changed to an open sleeper ticket.


----------



## Danib62

pardon my ignorance but what is an open sleeper ticket?


----------



## Ryan

River in Sight said:


> Agreed. I thought the way it used to work was that each incremental passenger only paid the lowest bucket rail fare, but I guess something must have changed.


This is still the case, the only catch is it's the lowest non-discount coach fare, so the "value" fares or whatever they're called don't count.


----------



## jebr

Ryan said:


> This is still the case, the only catch is it's the lowest non-discount coach fare, so the "value" fares or whatever they're called don't count.



From what I've seen with recent data points, it seems as though that second person fare is tied to the second-tier "value" fare instead of the lowest-level "value" fare that it used to be tied to. ("Saver" fares are the ones that don't count for the second person in a sleeper, and are also the ones that Amtrak uses most often to do sales.)


----------



## tricia

Danib62 said:


> pardon my ignorance but what is an open sleeper ticket?


An open sleeper ticket allows someone to join the person who booked the sleeper accommodation to join that person in their room. It costs what a certain level of coach fare costs--used to be the least expensive coach fare, now IIRC it's the next-to-least-expensive. I don't know if it's available by phone for an onboard upgrade from coach.


----------



## Dakota 400

Danib62 said:


> On a totally unrelated note: does anyone have any experience sneaking a passenger from coach back into your roomette?



On the Silver Meteor out of Washington, I was seated in the dining car with a gentleman and his 3 young sons who were en route to Orlando and Disney World. A very pleasant conversation during dinner with the boys' Father asking me if I could take them into my Sleeper to see my Roomette. (This was the boys' first train trip.) I told the gentleman that I did not think was allowed. The Conductor passed through the dining car just after I said that. I stopped him and repeated the Father's request. He confirmed what I thought I knew. No coach visitors in the Sleepers.


----------



## Cal

Dakota 400 said:


> On the Silver Meteor out of Washington, I was seated in the dining car with a gentleman and his 3 young sons who were en route to Orlando and Disney World. A very pleasant conversation during dinner with the boys' Father asking me if I could take them into my Sleeper to see my Roomette. (This was the boys' first train trip.) I told the gentleman that I did not think was allowed. The Conductor passed through the dining car just after I said that. I stopped him and repeated the Father's request. He confirmed what I thought I knew. No coach visitors in the Sleepers.


Some nice crew members will let coach passengers see the rooms. I've met a few conductors who I'm sure would be happy to show a kid the rooms.


----------



## OBS

Cal said:


> Some nice crew members will let coach passengers see the rooms. I've met a few conductors who I'm sure would be happy to show a kid the rooms.


I was rather surprised as well....


----------



## jmtilley

What time does boarding commence in Washington for the northbound sleeper on #66???


----------



## Cal

jmtilley said:


> What time does boarding commence in Washington for the northbound sleeper on #66???


Welcome to AU! My *guess* is that it'll take place 10-20 minutes prior to departure.


----------



## John Bobinyec

Does 65/66/57 currently have a sleeper? Between Boston and where? I looked at going from Newark, NJ, to Newport News from now until the rest of the year (spot checking) and the first class accommodations seemed to be completely blocked out.

jb


----------



## Trogdor

John Bobinyec said:


> Does 65/66/57 currently have a sleeper? Between Boston and where? I looked at going from Newark, NJ, to Newport News from now until the rest of the year (spot checking) and the first class accommodations seemed to be completely blocked out.
> 
> jb



Per the thread title: WAS.


----------



## Cal

Might want to watch this, reflects much of the opinions on here. Especially the rough track. 

The Cafe attendant also apparently yelled at them to leave because it was closed after (this happened after departing WAS). I would think the cafe would be open as it's origin point is Newport News..


----------



## John Bobinyec

Trogdor said:


> Per the thread title: WAS.


So why switch the train at Washington (other than for the engine)? Why not leave the sleeper on there the whole way from Newport News to Boston and back?

jb


----------



## Cal

John Bobinyec said:


> So why switch the train at Washington (other than for the engine)? Why not leave the sleeper on there the whole way from Newport News to Boston and back?
> 
> jb


The sleeper is on the whole way, it's just not allowed for booking south of WAS>


----------



## John Bobinyec

Cal said:


> The sleeper is on the whole way, it's just not allowed for booking south of WAS>
> 
> So if I get on and occupy the sleeper from Boston south as far as I can, I have to vacate the sleeper at Washington and move to a coach seat? What sense does that make?
> 
> jb


----------



## PVD

Lots of reasons suggested, none confirmed. Chief among them whether or not Virginia would need to pay part of the cost, very high incremental crew cost to have an attendant past Washington. I would have thought they would pull the sleeper with the power change and service it in Washington but that is not the case.


----------



## Mailliw

That would make too much sense.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Cal said:


> Might want to watch this, reflects much of the opinions on here. Especially the rough track.
> 
> The Cafe attendant also apparently yelled at them to leave because it was closed after (this happened after departing WAS). I would think the cafe would be open as it's origin point is Newport News..




I found getting sleep on the first night owl I took back in April to be impossible. The three subsequent journeys were significantly better with the most recent being the most pleasant night of sleep I’ve ever had in a vehicle.


----------



## Danib62

Well I booked my first NER roomette trip for September. Had a companion coupon to use so $289 for 2 people is pretty darn reasonable and given the flight schedule and the fact that we needed to leave Boston pretty late and get into DC fairly early this actually made the most sense for us. I'll be sure to post my impressions here. Was tempted to spring the extra $68 for a bedroom but instead lowballed them with a $40 bid...


----------



## Brian Battuello

I'd jump on the bedroom at that price, especially for two grown people.


----------



## Danib62

I figure that space isn't that important given that we both plan to spend the majority of the trip horizontal.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Makes sense. Now if I was travelling with someone I was romantically involved with, which at this point better be my spouse....


----------



## Danib62

After consulting with my lifetime travel partner we decided to opt for the bedroom. I sent her a picture of the roomette toilet and I think it scared her.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Good move.


----------



## Danib62

Now let's see if we survive 18+ hours in a roomette together on the coast starlight from PDX-EMY... Bedrooms were exorbitant and I was using AGR points and didn't have enough...


----------



## Brian Battuello

More likely to survive than 18 hours in coach.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Danib62 said:


> Now let's see if we survive 18+ hours in a roomette together on the coast starlight from PDX-EMY... Bedrooms were exorbitant and I was using AGR points and didn't have enough...


You have a Sightseer Lounge and a Diner, so except for Sleeping, yallwont be Prisoners in your Room.

Remember your Face Coverings!


----------



## Danib62

I figure we'll spend much of our awake time in the sightseer lounge and we'll bring some card games. I have a lot riding on this as it's our first overnight train trip together (her first since she took the Twilight Shoreliner once as a child) and I would like for there to be more in the future...


----------



## Brian Battuello

She's either a foamer or she isn't. Amtrak isn't for the faint of heart.


----------



## Danib62

She’s willing to humor me within reason though.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Sounds like you found a good one!


----------



## TC_NYC

Danib62 said:


> Now let's see if we survive 18+ hours in a roomette together on the coast starlight from PDX-EMY... Bedrooms were exorbitant and I was using AGR points and didn't have enough...


Let's hope it's running! That bridge looks to be in rough shape...


----------



## Danib62

The pricing for a second passenger on this trip continues to perplex me. Using AGR points a roomette for one (in the lowest bucket) is a reasonable 10,260 points but adding a second passenger cranks the cost up to 15,620! For comparison sake I was able to book a trip on the Coast Starlight for two from PDX to SFC for 14,698 (though it sadly got cancelled due to the fires).


----------



## Danib62

Has the NER sleeper been getting the "updated" bedding?


----------



## Tlcooper93

Danib62 said:


> Has the NER sleeper been getting the "updated" bedding?



yes, and I have to say, it’s really nice...
Compared to what was offered before, I found it to be night and day. I experienced the old bedding on the silver meteor a month ago. Kind of sad.


----------



## Rasputin

A friend who is a long time rail passenger told me about his recent trip on the sleeper on No. 66. 

When sleeping car passengers went to board the car in DC, they could not do so and were held on the platform. The conductor subsequently explained that the problem was that when the train arrived in DC from Newport News, it was discovered that the sleeping car had not been "made up." (I do not know where this car is supposed to be serviced and cleaned from the previous trip). Apparently, the attendant was in the process of franticly trying to get the car ready to receive passengers. After some time, the conductor told the sleeping car passengers to board one of the coaches and they could go to the sleeper when the car was ready. My friend reported that this was very inconvenient for some sleeper passengers who were traveling with a child and for some older passengers who had luggage. The family traveling with their child indicated that their earlier trip in sleeper on 67 from Boston to DC had gone smoothly. 

My friend reported that his bedroom in the sleeper wasn't ready until 11 p.m. He noticed that the carpet in the bedroom was filthy and needed to be steam cleaned. 

The positive aspects of the trip were that the train was on time and at some points early, that patronage appeared to be good in coach and sleeper, that no intercom announcements were made between Baltimore and Kingston, R.I. and that no one had died.


----------



## OBS

Rasputin said:


> A friend who is a long time rail passenger told me about his recent trip on the sleeper on No. 66.
> 
> When sleeping car passengers went to board the car in DC, they could not do so and were held on the platform. The conductor subsequently explained that the problem was that when the train arrived in DC from Newport News, it was discovered that the sleeping car had not been "made up." (I do not know where this car is supposed to be serviced and cleaned from the previous trip). Apparently, the attendant was in the process of franticly trying to get the car ready to receive passengers. After some time, the conductor told the sleeping car passengers to board one of the coaches and they could go to the sleeper when the car was ready. My friend reported that this was very inconvenient for some sleeper passengers who were traveling with a child and for some older passengers who had luggage. The family traveling with their child indicated that their earlier trip in sleeper on 67 from Boston to DC had gone smoothly.
> 
> My friend reported that his bedroom in the sleeper wasn't ready until 11 p.m. He noticed that the carpet in the bedroom was filthy and needed to be steam cleaned.
> 
> The positive aspects of the trip were that the train was on time and at some points early, that patronage appeared to be good in coach and sleeper, that no intercom announcements were made between Baltimore and Kingston, R.I. and that no one had died.


Hopefully your friend notified Amtrak about this experience.


----------



## Rasputin

OBS said:


> Hopefully your friend notified Amtrak about this experience.


Yes he tells me that he will be contacting Amtrak. He also told me that he has attempted to notify RPA about this issue (by phone I believe) but has not yet been successful in reaching them.


----------



## Danib62

I’m taking train 67 this coming Wednesday night and have a bedroom booked. Will definitely post my impressions here. I assume we’re still dealing with a Viewliner I on the route? Excited, this is only my second trip in sleeping accommodations and my first on a Viewliner.


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## MARC Rider

Danib62 said:


> The pricing for a second passenger on this trip continues to perplex me. Using AGR points a roomette for one (in the lowest bucket) is a reasonable 10,260 points but adding a second passenger cranks the cost up to 15,620! For comparison sake I was able to book a trip on the Coast Starlight for two from PDX to SFC for 14,698 (though it sadly got cancelled due to the fires).


I've gotten Acela First Class between Boston and Baltimore for 12,000 points, on average. Adding 5,000 points for the extra coach fare doesn't seem out of line to me.


----------



## Danib62

MARC Rider said:


> I've gotten Acela First Class between Boston and Baltimore for 12,000 points, on average. Adding 5,000 points for the extra coach fare doesn't seem out of line to me.


Acela is a notoriously bad point value. You should never book an Acela ticket with points.


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## Danib62

So just got back from my trip on 67 from BBY-WAS. Here are my quick impressions:


The "soft" product was really good! We had snack boxes waiting for us in our rooms. The SCA was very friendly and helpful and made sure we knew we could go get some adult beverages in the cafe car. He was able to accommodate my wife getting off early at BWI and made sure we knew when our stops were coming. We were able to get breakfast in the cafe car in the morning with no issues. Both cafe car attendants were friendly and courteous.
The "hard" product is awful. The V-Is are in desperate need of a refurbishment. They are utterly grungy. I almost felt embarrassed that this was my wife's first overnight Amtrak trip. Every little nook and cranny is just coated in grime. The safety instruction card was literally stuck on the fold out table with who knows what. The shower ran out of hot water within the first 20 seconds of starting it (this happened both before bed when I showered, and in the morning when my wife showered). The sink was pretty terrible to use. The curtains, cushions, and carpeting just all look and feel dirty.
Announcements were made over the PA multiple times while approaching, laying over at, and departing NYP. This is inexcusable. The cafe care reopening doesn't need it's own announcement blasted to sleeper passengers at 3am. Thankfully these were the only the announcements during quiet hours in the sleeper car (and yes our speaker was turned all the way down).


----------



## Tlcooper93

Danib62 said:


> So just got back from my trip on 67 from BBY-WAS. Here are my quick impressions:
> 
> 
> The "soft" product was really good! We had snack boxes waiting for us in our rooms. The SCA was very friendly and helpful and made sure we knew we could go get some adult beverages in the cafe car. He was able to accommodate my wife getting off early at BWI and made sure we knew when our stops were coming. We were able to get breakfast in the cafe car in the morning with no issues. Both cafe car attendants were friendly and courteous.
> The "hard" product is awful. The V-Is are in desperate need of a refurbishment. They are utterly grungy. I almost felt embarrassed that this was my wife's first overnight Amtrak trip. Every little nook and cranny is just coated in grime. The safety instruction card was literally stuck on the fold out table with who knows what. The shower ran out of hot water within the first 20 seconds of starting it (this happened both before bed when I showered, and in the morning when my wife showered). The sink was pretty terrible to use. The curtains, cushions, and carpeting just all look and feel dirty.
> Announcements were made over the PA multiple times while approaching, laying over at, and departing NYP. This is inexcusable. The cafe care reopening doesn't need it's own announcement blasted to sleeper passengers at 3am. Thankfully these were the only the announcements during quiet hours in the sleeper car (and yes our speaker was turned all the way down).


So disappointing.
This is more or less what I encountered in my first trip on April 5.
It is absolutely inexcusable that announcements were made in the sleeper car. Not that the center of excellence is worth bothering with, but perhaps if enough of us write, it will somehow get through their thick skulls.

My next trips were better, until the 4th one being pretty much satisfactory.
The other Viewliner they use, along with the new bedding, provided an experience that I felt was much better the subsequent times I took the train. I think the “New River” VI car is a little newer and cleaner. It made for a much more enjoyable trip.


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## Danib62

No announcements should be made on any car on trains 65/66/67 between 10p and 6a period (unless there's an emergency). This pissed me off to no end during one trip I took on 67 in coach before they brought the sleeper back. The BOS based conductors announced there would be no announcements after 10p so set an alarm if you're getting off before 6a. As soon as we got to NYP the new crew got on the PA was just blasting everyone with useless announcements for the rest of the trip (as well as making a racket and yakking when moving through the coaches). I filed a complaint and I'm still waiting for a response.


----------



## Tlcooper93

Danib62 said:


> No announcements should be made on any car on trains 65/66/67 between 10p and 6a period (unless there's an emergency). This pissed me off to no end during one trip I took on 67 in coach before they brought the sleeper back. The BOS based conductors announced there would be no announcements after 10p so set an alarm if you're getting off before 6a. As soon as we got to NYP the new crew got on the PA was just blasting everyone with useless announcements for the rest of the trip (as well as making a racket and yakking when moving through the coaches). I filed a complaint and I'm still waiting for a response.



Agreed, though I find announcements in the sleeper car particularly egregious. It is far more unlikely that anyone in the sleeper car will get off at NYP than some place in the morning.


----------



## MARC Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> Agreed, though I find announcements in the sleeper car particularly egregious. It is far more unlikely that anyone in the sleeper car will get off at NYP than some place in the morning.


And the SCA should know the few who are getting off early and can knock them up separately. As someone who had gotten off a lot at Todelo at 4 or 5 AM, I know they do that on other trains.


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## Danib62

I'm trying to leave feedback through amtrak.com and you can't select a travel date after August 28... You can't make this stuff up.


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## Exvalley

New rolling stock should have a "CAFE OPEN/CLOSED" lighted sign in each coach. This alone would avoid a lot of announcements.


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## Triley

Rasputin said:


> A friend who is a long time rail passenger told me about his recent trip on the sleeper on No. 66.
> 
> When sleeping car passengers went to board the car in DC, they could not do so and were held on the platform. The conductor subsequently explained that the problem was that when the train arrived in DC from Newport News, it was discovered that the sleeping car had not been "made up." (I do not know where this car is supposed to be serviced and cleaned from the previous trip). Apparently, the attendant was in the process of franticly trying to get the car ready to receive passengers. After some time, the conductor told the sleeping car passengers to board one of the coaches and they could go to the sleeper when the car was ready. My friend reported that this was very inconvenient for some sleeper passengers who were traveling with a child and for some older passengers who had luggage. The family traveling with their child indicated that their earlier trip in sleeper on 67 from Boston to DC had gone smoothly.



The issue is...when this train had the sleepers cut years ago, Boston lost all sleepers attendants. Thus when the train regained the sleeper, the attendants are out of DC. To my understanding, the car runs down to Newport News and back, empty, and with no attendant. The attendant getting off 67 must try to do their best to clean the car before they detrain in DC, which can leave the car in a pretty rough condition for the return trip on 66.

One alternative they have is to have the attendants change out in WAS, and have someone continue on with the equipment to NPN, and make the car a revenue car for that duration. This would require an odd situation where your sleeper attendant may change out mid-trip, which is far from ideal. The other option is to have the sleeper run directly behind the engine (and moving the bag car to the rear), so the car can be cut in/out alongside the engine change. This would have the sleeper in earshot of additional noise (bell/horn), though based on the time of night, would only really be an issue around Southeastern Connecticut and Southwestern Rhode Island.



Danib62 said:


> No announcements should be made on any car on trains 65/66/67 between 10p and 6a period (unless there's an emergency). This pissed me off to no end during one trip I took on 67 in coach before they brought the sleeper back. The BOS based conductors announced there would be no announcements after 10p so set an alarm if you're getting off before 6a. As soon as we got to NYP the new crew got on the PA was just blasting everyone with useless announcements for the rest of the trip (as well as making a racket and yakking when moving through the coaches). I filed a complaint and I'm still waiting for a response.



As someone who use to frequently work this train, I agree with you regarding announcements.

However, in defense of the crews that were making announcements, according to the Service Standards manual, there are NO quiet hours on Regionals, so the BOS crews have always been in the wrong by dimming the lights, and making no announcements.

Just want to make sure your anger is directed at the right party, and it's not the conductors in this case. Traditionally 65/66/67 have seen crews ignore the rules and treat it as a long haul, in the sense that lights get dimmed, and no announcements will be made between 11-6. However, they are technically in violation of the guidelines for a Regional, and get in trouble for doing so.


----------



## Danib62

I shall direct my ire at the Service Standards then. Curse you Service Standards!!! (But seriously they need to change the standards then. It's unacceptable.)


----------



## jis

Danib62 said:


> I shall direct my ire at the Service Standards then. Curse you Service Standards!!! (But seriously they need to change the standards then. It's unacceptable.)


I took the liberty to report this issue to RPA and asked them to put this on the list of things to bring to Amtrak to fix, since fixing it basically costs nothing. We shall see what happens.


----------



## Rasputin

Triley said:


> The issue is...when this train had the sleepers cut years ago, Boston lost all sleepers attendants. Thus when the train regained the sleeper, the attendants are out of DC. To my understanding, the car runs down to Newport News and back, empty, and with no attendant. The attendant getting off 67 must try to do their best to clean the car before they detrain in DC, which can leave the car in a pretty rough condition for the return trip on 66.
> 
> One alternative they have is to have the attendants change out in WAS, and have someone continue on with the equipment to NPN, and make the car a revenue car for that duration. This would require an odd situation where your sleeper attendant may change out mid-trip, which is far from ideal. The other option is to have the sleeper run directly behind the engine (and moving the bag car to the rear), so the car can be cut in/out alongside the engine change. This would have the sleeper in earshot of additional noise (bell/horn), though based on the time of night, would only really be an issue around Southeastern Connecticut and Southwestern Rhode Island.



If my understanding is correct, 67 is scheduled to arrive in Newport News at 11:33 a.m. and departs as 66 at 4:50 p.m. There are no car cleaners at Newport News who could clean this car? Is the rest of the train cleaned or serviced at all at Newport News or is this train service on automatic?


----------



## jis

So it is all for the lack of one additional SCA to do the WAS - NPN - WAS turn, just because the additional revenue generated will probably not cover the cost. Would be interesting to see what happens if Virginia offers to cover the shortfall out of its overall surplus.


----------



## Dakota 400

Triley said:


> according to the Service Standards manual, there are NO quiet hours on Regionals



This surprises me. I do remember that 10:00 P. M. to 6:00 A. M. were quiet hours on the LD trains. What is the rationalization for any overnight train not having such quiet hours?


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## OBS

Rasputin said:


> If my understanding is correct, 67 is scheduled to arrive in Newport News at 11:33 a.m. and departs as 66 at 4:50 p.m. There are no car cleaners at Newport News who could clean this car? Is the rest of the train cleaned or serviced at all at Newport News or is this train service on automatic?


The primary issue is getting beds made and rooms set up for the return trip...something the car cleaners don't handle.


----------



## OBS

Dakota 400 said:


> This surprises me. I do remember that 10:00 P. M. to 6:00 A. M. were quiet hours on the LD trains. What is the rationalization for any overnight train not having such quiet hours?


I have not opened my SS manual since long before I retired, but, years ago, there was instructions to shut off the PA box in the sleepers during the overnight hours, so as not to disturb passengers.


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> So it is all for the lack of one additional SCA to do the WAS - NPN - WAS turn, just because the additional revenue generated will probably not cover the cost. Would be interesting to see what happens if Virginia offers to cover the shortfall out of its overall surplus.


I am not sure, but may also impact the number of revenue cars in operation South of DC, which impacts The number of Conductors required for the train and/or the related penalties for not staffing correctly.


----------



## Danib62

OBS said:


> I have not opened my SS manual since long before I retired, but, years ago, there was instructions to shut off the PA box in the sleepers during the overnight hours, so as not to disturb passengers.


It was weird. It was almost like they made a point of switching them on just for NYP to make announcements because we didn't have any other announcements during quiet hours.


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## Trogdor

Dakota 400 said:


> This surprises me. I do remember that 10:00 P. M. to 6:00 A. M. were quiet hours on the LD trains. What is the rationalization for any overnight train not having such quiet hours?



On 66/67, stops are fairly frequent and the relative passenger turnover is high at some of these stops. You don’t have the luxury of 45-60 minutes in between stops to find the small number of passengers that were probably directed to a specific car to make it easier for the conductors/car attendants to walk up to them personally and let them know their stop is coming up. You leave Wilmington and 15 minutes later you’re in Philadelphia, 20 minutes later you’re in Trenton, 12 minutes after that…etc. And you’ll probably have a hundred people getting off at those stops. Then half the train turns over in New York.

It definitely sucks if you’re trying to get sleep, and there ought to be a way to shut off the PA in the sleeper, but I completely understand why these trains otherwise would not have quiet hours. It’s completely different from finding the three passengers bound for Holdrege, NE in the 11 car with 45 minutes to go before their stop.


----------



## Triley

Dakota 400 said:


> This surprises me. I do remember that 10:00 P. M. to 6:00 A. M. were quiet hours on the LD trains. What is the rationalization for any overnight train not having such quiet hours?



Because 66/67 is not a long distance train, it's a Regional. Regionals "require" the lights on at all times, and all announcements to be made.


----------



## Palmland

Perhaps it’s time to change the ’requirements’ or at least have the SCA and/or conductor responsible to insure any intermediate sleeper passengers get off at the right destination and turn off the PA In the sleeper until maybe 6am. No PA worked well for many many years.

Regarding the difficulty in cleaning rooms - 


Triley said:


> The other option is to have the sleeper run directly behind the engine (and moving the bag car to the rear), so the car can be cut in/out alongside the engine change. This would have the sleeper in earshot of additional noise (bell/horn….


Are there no switch engines in Washington anymore? Leave the sleeper on the rear. Cut away from it when the train leaves and have a switcher take it for servicing.

A better option is to sell rooms to Richmond/Newport News and return the SCA base to Boston. They managed to restore the LSL Boston sleeper.


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## Danib62

I think the solution is you then group passengers in coaches based on destination. You have a set coach with people going the full overnight and you cut the lights and the PA in that coach. This isn’t rocket science. Treating 65/66/67 as any other regional train is ridiculous because it isn’t.


----------



## Ryan

Putting it back on the rear when the train is heading north is another thing entirely.


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## Cal

Danib62 said:


> So just got back from my trip on 67 from BBY-WAS. Here are my quick impressions:
> 
> 
> The "soft" product was really good! We had snack boxes waiting for us in our rooms. The SCA was very friendly and helpful and made sure we knew we could go get some adult beverages in the cafe car. He was able to accommodate my wife getting off early at BWI and made sure we knew when our stops were coming. We were able to get breakfast in the cafe car in the morning with no issues. Both cafe car attendants were friendly and courteous.
> The "hard" product is awful. The V-Is are in desperate need of a refurbishment. They are utterly grungy. I almost felt embarrassed that this was my wife's first overnight Amtrak trip. Every little nook and cranny is just coated in grime. The safety instruction card was literally stuck on the fold out table with who knows what. The shower ran out of hot water within the first 20 seconds of starting it (this happened both before bed when I showered, and in the morning when my wife showered). The sink was pretty terrible to use. The curtains, cushions, and carpeting just all look and feel dirty.
> Announcements were made over the PA multiple times while approaching, laying over at, and departing NYP. This is inexcusable. The cafe care reopening doesn't need it's own announcement blasted to sleeper passengers at 3am. Thankfully these were the only the announcements during quiet hours in the sleeper car (and yes our speaker was turned all the way down).


Meanwhile other reviews (including some by @Tlcooper93) were almost all positive, again to prove how inconsistent Amtrak is.


----------



## Cal

Palmland said:


> They managed to restore the LSL Boston sleeper.


Because it can be easily crewed from Chicago which never lost it's SCA base.


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## Triley

Palmland said:


> Perhaps it’s time to change the ’requirements’ or at least have the SCA and/or conductor responsible to insure any intermediate sleeper passengers get off at the right destination and turn off the PA In the sleeper until maybe 6am. No PA worked well for many many years.
> 
> Regarding the difficulty in cleaning rooms -
> 
> Are there no switch engines in Washington anymore? Leave the sleeper on the rear. Cut away from it when the train leaves and have a switcher take it for servicing.
> 
> A better option is to sell rooms to Richmond/Newport News and return the SCA base to Boston. They managed to restore the LSL Boston sleeper.



The PA can no be turned off in any car , in case of an emergency.

There are switch engines, but what you suggested (removing the sleeper from the rear) would require a longer dwell time, which is something they're trying to cut back on. That's why I mentioned the unfortunate suggestion of having the sleeper at the front, to be removed. Your suggestion is a blue flag nightmare.

And as Cal mentioned, CHI crews the BOS portion of the LSL, as they have done for quite many years, so there were no changes that needed to be made to make it happen. Now...I'm 100% for bringing back TAs to Boston (the more jobs, the better!), but from a business standpoint, I need to question if it's worth it. I would personally expect them to explore other options that allow passengers to ride the full length of the route.


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## Acela150

Triley said:


> Now...I'm 100% for bringing back TAs to Boston



They are. Their is a posting up on the careers page for SA/TA for BOS, NYP, & WAS. I'd be stunned if that's NOT what it's for. At least the BOS postings.


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## Triley

Acela150 said:


> They are. Their is a posting up on the careers page for SA/TA for BOS, NYP, & WAS. I'd be stunned if that's NOT what it's for. At least the BOS postings.



Just took a look, that's awesome!


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## Danib62

Cal said:


> Meanwhile other reviews (including some by @Tlcooper93) were almost all positive, again to prove how inconsistent Amtrak is.


I don’t think the negatives I’ve pointed out are anything that haven’t been pointed out by others, I just weigh them differently.


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## Rasputin

The bottom line is that this is Amtrak (and not GN, NP, UP, PRR, NYC, CN, CP, etc.) so there is obviously no solution.


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## jis

Rasputin said:


> The bottom line is that this is Amtrak (and not GN, NP, UP, PRR, NYC, CN, CP, etc.) so there is obviously no solution.


Based on my experience with PRR in 1965, I'd say Amtrak is merely carrying on the tradition


----------



## Rasputin

jis said:


> Based on my experience with PRR in 1965, I'd say Amtrak is merely carrying on the tradition


Based on my experience on the Broadway in 1968, Amtrak's operation of the Boston - Washington sleeping car service is quite a few notches lower.


----------



## jis

Rasputin said:


> Based on my experience on the Broadway in 1968, Amtrak's operation of the Boston - Washington sleeping car service is quite a few notches lower.


Why would you want to compare the Boston - Washington Sleeper with Broadway?


----------



## Rasputin

jis said:


> Why would you want to compare the Boston - Washington Sleeper with Broadway?


At least the PRR, even in the late stages of its life, could do some things right.


----------



## Dakota 400

Danib62 said:


> I think the solution is you then group passengers in coaches based on destination. You have a set coach with people going the full overnight and you cut the lights and the PA in that coach. This isn’t rocket science. Treating 65/66/67 as any other regional train is ridiculous because it isn’t.





Palmland said:


> Perhaps it’s time to change the ’requirements’ or at least have the SCA and/or conductor responsible to insure any intermediate sleeper passengers get off at the right destination and turn off the PA In the sleeper until maybe 6am.



Both of these posters make good sense in my opinion.

I thought it has been the practice to try to group Coach passengers in specific cars based on their destination.


----------



## Triley

Dakota 400 said:


> Both of these posters make good sense in my opinion.
> 
> I thought it has been the practice to try to group Coach passengers in specific cars based on their destination.



Not on the corridor, as it increases dwell time considerably. Open all doors, let people off/on, close all doors, rinse and repeat.


----------



## Dakota 400

Triley said:


> Not on the corridor, as it increases dwell time considerably. Open all doors, let people off/on, close all doors, rinse and repeat.



OK, and if the PA can't be turned off in the sleepers, then perhaps an overnight train on the NEC is not a world class idea. Particularly for those passengers who want to get some sleep.


----------



## MARC Rider

Triley said:


> Not on the corridor, as it increases dwell time considerably. Open all doors, let people off/on, close all doors, rinse and repeat.


Considering that this train is scheduled to take over 9 hours to get from Boston to Washington when most Northest Regionals do the run in 7 and a half hours, I don't think increased dwell time at stations would be a problem.

And every time I've ridden 67 between Baltimore and Washington, and I was doing it off and on for over 15 years, The lights were off when I boarded in Baltimore, and there were no announcements until the train arrived at BWI. That's also when the lights came on. I also rode 67 about 4 or 5 times from Boston to Washington around 2008 to 2014, and it was dark and quiet all the way to BWI.


----------



## Rasputin

Dakota 400 said:


> OK, and if the PA can't be turned off in the sleepers, then perhaps an overnight train on the NEC is not a world class idea. Particularly for those passengers who want to get some sleep.


It certainly does not sound like a world class idea but sadly I am beginning to think that it is a third world idea instead.


----------



## Triley

I would like to remind folks once again that I am not here to argue/debate policies or listen to snide comments, nor am I in the position to change said policies do. I am merely here to explain why things are the way they are, and what the policy says, regardless of if I agree with the policy or not,.


----------



## lordsigma

Can’t you turn the PA volume down in your room on a viewliner?


----------



## Triley

lordsigma said:


> Can’t you turn the PA volume down in your room on a viewliner?



There are controls in all roomettes and bedrooms, but the PA may still be loud enough in the hallway to be quite jarring. I've jumped a few times when trying to take a quick nap in between meal periods, and because of the PA in the hallway.


----------



## PVD

This is the type of issue that is very easy to solve in new equipment, starting from scratch. It is not uncommon with modern electronics to have one channel or type of announcement override everything else. Probably not a hot topic 30-40 years ago.


----------



## Cal

Danib62 said:


> I don’t think the negatives I’ve pointed out are anything that haven’t been pointed out by others, I just weigh them differently.


Yes, however I'm just pointing out that Amtrak is still world-leading in it's inconsistency.


----------



## toddinde

The sleeper should run and be occupied from Newport News. Tidewater to Boston would seem like a decent market. All these problems are rather simple details that could be resolved by a working group. Including labor in the discussion would be positive because they might have some excellent ideas. There should be a through coach and the sleepers where no announcements are made and lights dimmed in the coach. That said, when I lived in Europe. I always carries an eye mask and ear plugs and slept like a baby in the lighted coach at night.


----------



## MARC Rider

toddinde said:


> The sleeper should run and be occupied from Newport News. Tidewater to Boston would seem like a decent market. All these problems are rather simple details that could be resolved by a working group. Including labor in the discussion would be positive because they might have some excellent ideas. There should be a through coach and the sleepers where no announcements are made and lights dimmed in the coach. That said, when I lived in Europe. I always carries an eye mask and ear plugs and slept like a baby in the lighted coach at night.


Heck, when I commuted on a MARC train that left at 5 AM, I always carried an eye mask, and was usually dozing very nicely in the brightly lit coach by the time we got to Odenton.


----------



## Willbridge

While working through back issues of RTN I found that the former _Night Owl _was categorized as a long-distance train in tables of ridership and revenues. When I rode it in 1987 (BOS>BWI) it was operated like a long-distance train except that a leg-rest coach that was supposed to be available for end-to-end riders had been bad-ordered.


----------



## Willbridge

I'm missing the RTN issue that had my 1987 trip report on coach BOS>BWI but I found an article in Issue 371 (2nd Feb 88) titled "New Year's on the _Night Owl_" by Robin McCauley. His experience sounds quite contemporary.

He rode Boston to Washington on New Year's eve in what seems to have been a 10-6 sleeper. He and his traveling companion liked the layout of Bedroom F (beds parallel to the window). The crew did their jobs and the car attendant took orders for breakfast and made sure that they were familiar with the features of their room. He issued two 'Trak Paks' of snack items and complimentary wine. In the morning he brought hot coffee, orange juice and croissants. The train had departed South Station on time and arrived in DC Union Station on the advertised.

Then there was the return trip. Boarding was planned to begin at 9:30 p.m. A snowstorm was developing. A 'buzzy' p.a. announcement at 9:30 p.m. -- difficult to interpret -- announced that "due to late arrival of equipment" boarding would not start till 9:55 p.m. Then it was 10:05 p.m. A lady waiting ahead of them said "they always say that." She said it wasn't the snow, it was always like that.

The car attendant was cheerful but inexperienced. He was still getting berths ready as they entered the car. They departed on time at 10:20 p.m. (McCauley speculated that coach passengers would have still been working out their seating as the train began to roll.) They decided to walk up to the lounge car (probably an Amdinette). A long line of customers waited for service from a 'grim' attendant. On this trip the beds were placed crosswise in the sleeper and his berth had a tilt to it. Every start and stop gave him the feeling that he would slide out of bed. In the morning the car attendant brought the requested coffee and juice but forgot the croissants. The toilet failed.

They arrived in South Station an hour late but due to the storm many on the roads and runways had long delays, too. His overall impression was favorable but if both directions had been like the northbound trip that might have left a poor taste.

I noticed that although the _Executive Sleeper _was in service then there was no mention of being awakened by switching in NYP. And no mention of the engine change at New Haven.


----------



## MARC Rider

Willbridge said:


> I noticed that although the _Executive Sleeper _was in service then there was no mention of being awakened by switching in NYP. And no mention of the engine change at New Haven.


I took that trip (BAL-BOS) in coach a bit later in January 1987. We sat in an Amfleet 2. The seats seemed very uncomfortable, and I had trouble getting to sleep. I think I finally dozed off after we crossed the Hell Gate Bridge, so I did get to see a spectacular view of Manhattan at night. I slept right through the engine change in New Haven and woke up somewhere around Waverly, RI. We got coffee that was being served in some kind of heritage buffet car. I think we waited until we got to Boston to get breakfast. I'm kind of sorry we didn't book the sleeper, but the price seemed really high, although I suspect that, even accounting for inflation, it was less than the prices today.


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## Palmland

My one trip on the Night Owl in 1986, I think, was on the 'executive sleeper' BWI-NYP. Worked well for me but it was weird to get up and be parked at the platform in New York. Those roomettes were so much nicer than the Viewliners mainly due to the thick mattresses. Don't recall if it was a cut a way bed or not. But in those days I had an uninterrupted sleep and did not need to raise the bed.

Pre Amtrak the Edison carried New York sleepers from Washington and Baltimore. The Federal had them for Boston and picked up another at Philadelphia. The New York sleepers were gone by the mid 60's although Boston ones remained and morphed into the Night Owl.


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## Tlcooper93

Dakota 400 said:


> OK, and if the PA can't be turned off in the sleepers, then perhaps an overnight train on the NEC is not a world class idea. Particularly for those passengers who want to get some sleep.



While we can complain about these things all we want (and I’ve done just that), the Night Owl is perhaps the single sleeper train in this country that makes actual sense across the board. It’s a perfect schedule, it’s decently priced (most of the time), and has an undeniably real market outside tourism.

It obviously sucks that Amtrak can’t work out these things, but having been stuck with this train minus the sleeper car for 17 years, I’ll take what we have now any day. It’s a big victory for rail all the way around that the sleeper was restored. Perhaps the biggest victory in years.


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## Danib62

In some ways I would've rather that they waited to have a V2 or at the very least a refurbished V1 available for this route. They're going to turn off a lot of potential repeat customers by running a beat up V1 on this. The demographics of who takes the sleeper on this train is radically different than any other Amtrak overnight route and they're not gonna tolerate a grungy-ass V1 and being woken up at 3am for pointless announcements.


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## Tlcooper93

Danib62 said:


> In some ways I would've rather that they waited to have a V2 or at the very least a refurbished V1 available for this route. They're going to turn off a lot of potential repeat customers by running a beat up V1 on this. The demographics of who takes the sleeper on this train is radically different than any other Amtrak overnight route and they're not gonna tolerate a grungy-ass V1 and being woken up at 3am for pointless announcements.



I would agree with you if I didn’t think this sleeper train were so useful.

again, sometimes it sucks, but the usefulness of the route and sleeper car on this route trumps any possible problems. This train is already immensely popular. I’ll take a dirty private room over a dirty seat any day of the week...
My fiancé always brings wipes and alcohol with her anyways.


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## Danib62

It's useful to you and I don't deny that, but you were already taking this train without the sleeper car. If they want to expand who's taking this train and capture more of the market they need to get the details right.

We took this train because it was actually the best decision for us schedule-wise. I was hoping the experience would be positive enough that I could reasonably convince my wife that this should be our preferred mode of travelling between DC and Boston (a trip we do several times a year) over flying or driving. They missed the mark big time. As much as I would love to I don't see us doing it again unless we're in the rare position like we were this time where we had to for scheduling purposes.


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## Exvalley

Who are the non-tourists that are taking this train?

If I had to guess, I would say that they tend to fall into the following categories:
1) People who are train aficionados. 
2) People who see value in saving a night in a hotel. This includes self employed people and small business owners who keep an eye on the expense account.
3) Younger professionals looking for a bit of an adventure.

I just don't see a Fortune 500 executive taking this train, especially those why fly first class and stay in nice hotels. If Amtrak wants to attract those people, they need nicer equipment.


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## Tlcooper93

Exvalley said:


> Who are the non-tourists that are taking this train?
> 
> If I had to guess, I would say that they tend to fall into the following categories:
> 1) People who are train aficionados.
> 2) People who see value in saving a night in a hotel. This includes self employed people and small business owners who keep an eye on the expense account.
> 3) Younger professionals looking for a bit of an adventure.
> 
> I just don't see a Fortune 500 executive taking this train, especially those why fly first class and stay in nice hotels.



Fortune 500 people tend to not influence data that much. There aren’t that many of them, and most will take their Challengers and Gulfstreams anyways.

In my most recent trip on 67, I asked some of my fellow sleeper car passengers why they took the train. Some of them don’t take the train at all, but they found the idea of sleeping during the night while traveling to be useful.

All of them were traveling for business or necessary leisure (to see family for holidays), and were very pleased with the product Amtrak offered: I will say, that day there were no announcements, delays or annoyances.

The appeal of rail travel, strangely enough, is returning to this country.


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## jis

Well, if there are not a few people in the most rail savvy part of the country willing to ride a Sleeper overnight, I'd say we are in real trouble. OTOH I would not go so far as to reach the conclusion based on that that the country is becoming significantly more rail savvy overall, enough to start riding Sleepers for local business needs in large numbers either.  The overall country is a really big and diverse place.


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## MARC Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> I would agree with you if I didn’t think this sleeper train were so useful.
> 
> again, sometimes it sucks, but the usefulness of the route and sleeper car on this route trumps any possible problems. This train is already immensely popular. I’ll take a dirty private room over a dirty seat any day of the week...
> My fiancé always brings wipes and alcohol with her anyways.


Wait a second. Are the sleeper cars actually _dirty_, as in the kind of grime that transfers from the surface to your person ,or is it just that they are a bit old and faded?

Fir all the times I've traveled in V-1 sleepers, I've never had a problem with their being scuzzy or grimy or whatever, even if the upholstery is faded or minor things don't work.


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## Tlcooper93

jis said:


> Well, if there are not a few people in the most rail savvy part of the country willing to ride a Sleeper overnight, I'd say we are in real trouble. OTOH I would not go so far as to reach the conclusion based on that that the country is becoming significantly more rail savvy overall, enough to start riding Sleepers for local business needs in large numbers either.  The overall country is a really big and diverse place.


I did not suggest that the country as a whole is become significantly more rail savvy, but rather the belief that trains are an antiquated and useless form of travel is no longer ubiquitous. Many that I talk to in the northeast (especially in my generation) see the appeal. That was not necessarily there 20 years ago.

It seems some have finally awoken to the reality that the world takes advantage of great rail, and we are a very lonely country that does not.


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## Tlcooper93

MARC Rider said:


> Wait a second. Are the sleeper cars actually _dirty_, as in the kind of grime that transfers from the surface to your person ,or is it just that they are a bit old and faded?
> 
> Fir all the times I've traveled in V-1 sleepers, I've never had a problem with their being scuzzy or grimy or whatever, even if the upholstery is faded or minor things don't work.


Unfortunately, yes. Sometimes they are actually dirty.


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## MARC Rider

Tlcooper93 said:


> While we can complain about these things all we want (and I’ve done just that), the Night Owl is perhaps the single sleeper train in this country that makes actual sense across the board. It’s a perfect schedule, it’s decently priced (most of the time), and has an undeniably real market outside tourism.



I've ridden sleepers on the Silvers for business travel (mostly BAL/WAS to Savannah, but also to Tampa.) I've also used the Capitol Limited for business travel, and also the Crescent (though the new schedule messes up its value for trips to/from Greenville SC.)


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## Danib62

MARC Rider said:


> Wait a second. Are the sleeper cars actually _dirty_, as in the kind of grime that transfers from the surface to your person ,or is it just that they are a bit old and faded?
> 
> Fir all the times I've traveled in V-1 sleepers, I've never had a problem with their being scuzzy or grimy or whatever, even if the upholstery is faded or minor things don't work.


Yes they are actually dirty. Any nook and cranny that isn't easy to reach is covered in grime and dust. The carpets and drapes aren't just worn, they are filthy. The hinge on the little door in the bathroom/shower for the toilet paper compartment in my bedroom was completely rusted. The car safety information card was literally stuck to the fold out table.


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## Exvalley

Tlcooper93 said:


> Fortune 500 people tend to not influence data that much.


Perhaps I shouldn't have used that narrow of a term. When I take the Lake Shore Limited to Chicago to attend a conference each year, most people I speak with have never once considered taking the train. And a large number of these people work for businesses that are much smaller than a Fortune 500 company. Many of them are intrigued by the idea of taking the train, but that doesn't mean they would actually try it. The conference is almost always at the Ritz Carlton, and there are not many business people out there that are willing to trade a night at the Ritz for a night in an Amtrak sleeper.


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## Tlcooper93

Danib62 said:


> Yes they are actually dirty. Any nook and cranny that isn't easy to reach is covered in grime and dust. The carpets and drapes aren't just worn, they are filthy. The hinge on the little door in the bathroom/shower for the toilet paper compartment in my bedroom was completely rusted. The car safety information card was literally stuck to the fold out table.


Thankfully, in the 4 times I’ve taken the Owl since April 5, this experience happened only once (maybe we even had the same room). That said, that’s one time too many.


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## Danib62

I wonder if roomettes are generally cleaner than bedrooms, they seem to have fewer nooks and crannies where gunk can collect. my only other experience in Amtrak sleeping accommodations was in a Superliner roomette on the CL in the summer of 2019 and it was night and day in terms of cleanliness.


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## Danib62

Was not expecting this: Amtrak gave me a $100 travel voucher following my complaints about my experience on 67! I limited my complaints to the cold shower in the bedroom and being woken up by the PA multiple times at NYP.


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## OBS

Danib62 said:


> Was not expecting this: Amtrak gave me a $100 travel voucher following my complaints about my experience on 67! I limited my complaints to the cold shower in the bedroom and being woken up by the PA multiple times at NYP.


That's great, and a reasonably quick response as well!


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## zephyr17

Danib62 said:


> I wonder if roomettes are generally cleaner than bedrooms, they seem to have fewer nooks and crannies where gunk can collect. my only other experience in Amtrak sleeping accommodations was in a Superliner roomette on the CL in the summer of 2019 and it was night and day in terms of cleanliness.


Just don't look under a roomette seat...you really don't want to know.


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## neroden

Tlcooper93 said:


> I did not suggest that the country as a whole is become significantly more rail savvy, but rather the belief that trains are an antiquated and useless form of travel is no longer ubiquitous. Many that I talk to in the northeast (especially in my generation) see
> the appeal. That was not necessarily there 20 years ago.



It's documented that starting in about 1990 in the US (and all of the Americas, actually) there has been a massive uptrend in demand for rail travel, both in terms of ridership, in terms of prices the riders will pay, in terms of political activism, everything. Huge, massive, positive trend. The ridership charts just start shooting up from 1990 to 2019, for every system, after being flat or declining in the 1980s.

The change in attitude is undeniable -- people want train service now. Supporters of passenger rail are in a majority in the younger generations. I think this is still taking certain older Amtrak executives by surprise, and it has certainly surprised many older politicians.



> It seems some have finally awoken to the reality that the world takes advantage of great rail, and we are a very lonely country that does not.


Partly because our government is dominated by aged men (such as the "Senate" -- you know what Latin root that comes from!), many (though not all) of whom are out of touch with post-1990 trends.


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## neroden

MARC Rider said:


> I've ridden sleepers on the Silvers for business travel (mostly BAL/WAS to Savannah, but also to Tampa.) I've also used the Capitol Limited for business travel, and also the Crescent (though the new schedule messes up its value for trips to/from Greenville SC.)


I don't have business travel myself, but I've read multiple reports of people using the LSL Buffalo-Chicago for business travel. (The schedule is right.)


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## Willbridge

neroden said:


> It's documented that starting in about 1990 in the US (and all of the Americas, actually) there has been a massive uptrend in demand for rail travel, both in terms of ridership, in terms of prices the riders will pay, in terms of political activism, everything. Huge, massive, positive trend. The ridership charts just start shooting up from 1990 to 2019, for every system, after being flat or declining in the 1980s.
> 
> The change in attitude is undeniable -- people want train service now. Supporters of passenger rail are in a majority in the younger generations. I think this is still taking certain older Amtrak executives by surprise, and it has certainly surprised many older politicians.
> 
> 
> Partly because our government is dominated by aged men (such as the "Senate" -- you know what Latin root that comes from!), many (though not all) of whom are out of touch with post-1990 trends.


This phenomenon is happening in the inner ring (or "doughnut ring") suburbs where leadership comes from the group that last rode public transit when they were in college. The actual needs of the marketplace come from different demographic groups.


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## Danib62

Now that omicron has died down is there any word on when the heck 65/66/67 will be restored?


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## Tlcooper93

Danib62 said:


> Now that omicron has died down is there any word on when the heck 65/66/67 will be restored?


Last I checked is still March 27th IIRC


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## Danib62

That seems excessive, I wonder if something else is going on.


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## Amtrak709

This may have been addressed previously in this discussion and, if so, I apologize. I believe I noticed that the sleeper on 65/66/67 operates in the trainset BOS-NPN-BOS (like the Twilight Shoreliner) but is only available for occupancy WAS-BOS-WAS. Curious if this is a staffing issue or maintenance issue or demand issue; or maybe just an unknown. I have fond memories in the early 2000's of occupying the sleeper BOS-ASD and WBG. Just curious.


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## Danib62

It's a funding issue since WAS-NPN is considered a state-sponsored route.


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## OBS

Danib62 said:


> That seems excessive, I wonder if something else is going on.


I'm sure the lack of staffing is factored in as well. They would much rather use the staff to operate more Acela's than this train due to higher revenue and lower cost.


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## Amtrak709

Another useless curiosity: after all passengers have detrained in WAS on 65/66/67, do they service the sleeper on the way to NPN?; while in NPN waiting for the trainset to turnaround on return trip to WAS?? or other???


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## MARC Rider

Danib62 said:


> It's a funding issue since WAS-NPN is considered a state-sponsored route.


They were running sleepers to Newport News from the 1990s when the train was called the Twilight Shoreliner and extended to Newport News. Was there any problem with state funding back then?


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## PVD

Did the current rule exist then? If it didn't, Twilight Shoreliner is no longer relevant in this situation.


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## Rasputin

AMTRAK709 said:


> Another useless curiosity: after all passengers have detrained in WAS on 65/66/67, do they service the sleeper on the way to NPN?; while in NPN waiting for the trainset to turnaround on return trip to WAS?? or other???


Hardly a useless question. Based on the trip reports I have seen the sleeper seems to be serviced in DC upon arrival from Newport News but hopefully those who have ridden this sleeper can confirm or correct that.


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## TheCrescent

This is another situation in which logic is thrown in the trash can due to some law.

Amtrak has a sleeping car that runs empty between Washington and Newport News.

Just sell the rooms for a discount, without amenities and without an agent. Every cent in ticket sales is black ink in Amtrak’s bottom line.


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## jis

MARC Rider said:


> They were running sleepers to Newport News from the 1990s when the train was called the Twilight Shoreliner and extended to Newport News. Was there any problem with state funding back then?


It was not a state supported service them. AFAIR it was not a 403b service.


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## Cal

Danib62 said:


> That seems excessive, I wonder if something else is going on.


That something is the staffing shortage which has been seen across the nation IIRC.


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## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> That something is the staffing shortage which has been seen across the nation IIRC.


Yeah, I've seen posts on FB by OBS trying to recruit T&E and OBS. Definitely a staffing shortage going on.


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## neroden

All customer-facing jobs are unattractive right now due to Covid-19 and the number of members of the public who are unwilling to comply with mask rules -- it means they're hazard-pay jobs.


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## west point

The Amtrak job postings do have coach cleaner positions at NPN. Suspect that means the sleeper as well>Have never seen a job posting just for sleepers' system wide.

The staffing problem seems to come now because the OBS is WASH based. To go to NPN would require probably 2 more positions even if OBS laid over in NPN and go to BOS.?? but the twilight had it as BOS based. There have been several postings for OBS at BOS so maybe when there is enough BOS OBS maybe it will go back to BOS?

BTW more posting for WASH as well.


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## Siegmund

jis said:


> They were running sleepers to Newport News from the 1990s when the train was called the Twilight Shoreliner and extended to Newport News. Was there any problem with state funding back then?
> 
> 
> 
> It was not a state supported service them. AFAIR it was not a 403b service.
Click to expand...


Correct. Newport News was part of the national network from the beginning (that lovely little one-car second section of the Cardinal that split off in Charlottesville, as well as the Colonial.) 

There was always some weirdness with running empty cars to and from NPN -- when they first added the second frequency, the "Tidewater" (weekends only, and WAS-NPN some days of the week and NYP-NPN other days), I was puzzled to see a train running south 3 days a week but north 4 days a week. The equipment and crew had to get to NPN SOMEhow on Sundays... it seemed to me there would have been no downside to selling tickets both directions every day.

I had not been aware that yet another side effect of PRIIA was that the sleeper had to be closed south of WAS. So many things to hate about that "pay more, get less" bill! (For those who have not looked at a 1990s timetable in awhile: there was also no state support for the Empire Service except the Adirondack; nor for the old Montrealer, nor 3 round trips each on the Keystones, San Diegans, Hiawathas, and Chicago-Detroit. They had already talked Illinois into paying for all the Chicago-St. Louis trains by then, but at one time two of those were part of the 'national network' too.)


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## Exvalley

It's possible that very few rooms would be occupied south of Washington, DC. If that is the case, I can understand why Amtrak would not want to pay a sleeper attendant for that portion of the route.


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## OBS

west point said:


> The Amtrak job postings do have coach cleaner positions at NPN. Suspect that means the sleeper as well>Have never seen a job posting just for sleepers' system wide.
> 
> The staffing problem seems to come now because the OBS is WASH based. To go to NPN would require probably 2 more positions even if OBS laid over in NPN and go to BOS.?? but the twilight had it as BOS based. There have been several postings for OBS at BOS so maybe when there is enough BOS OBS maybe it will go back to BOS?
> 
> BTW more posting for WASH as well.


Coach cleaner is the official job title for people hired to clean trains.


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## City of Miami

Is there any information about was/bos sleeper service returning to ner 66? What happened to it?


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## AmtrakBlue

City of Miami said:


> Is there any information about was/bos sleeper service returning to ner 66? What happened to it?


They shifted some trains. 66 now originates in Roanoke. 65/67 terminate in Newport News.


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## lordsigma

There has been some vague chatter that they may eventually bring the sleeper back - if they do it'd likely be cut/added on at WAS given the different end points in VA. Nothing concrete just chatter/rumors.


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## zephyr17

Honestly, when it comes to sleepers, Amtrak has a lot to straighten out before addressing 65/66/67.


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## 20th Century Rider

So many problems on the 'reintroduced Night Owl' a while back... such as blaring announcements at NYP... an intermediate stop in which all were awakened at unimaginable hours [yes... I did do the actual Night Owl when I was a lot younger and remember the quiet knocking and whispers at NYP so as not to wake up passengers.] And the rudeness of todays attendants is quite discouraging... especially noted in an account by a well known travel blogger in which that included nightcap was unattainable after the train left WAS cause the cafe was not yet open... but I mean... it's a short night trip... why shouldn't it be open when the train leaves the station for the short night run.=??? And the dry roll in a 'breakfast box' for the next morning doesn't seem to serve a purpose. [The original Night Owl included reasonable food and a toilet kit similar to transatlantic business class.]

Don't know why anyone would patronize a night train with this kind of service. Amtrak has lost its way with customer service... but this is not something that is new since the pandemic and before. I certainly wouldn't want to experience such a disappointing and uncomfortable service... for any price.

There are 1st class night busses plying the BOS NYP WAS corridor with far better service at much more affordable cost.


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## PaTrainFan

lordsigma said:


> There has been some vague chatter that they may eventually bring the sleeper back - if they do it'd likely be cut/added on at WAS given the different end points in VA. Nothing concrete just chatter/rumors.


 Chatter = unfounded rumors and/or hopeful speculation. Meaningless.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Yes it did take a few days for kinks to be worked out. However the PA announcement was addressed, and train did get the new bedding. Pain to watch, but someone was managing the roll out, and got under control shortly. Then the train was canceled.

Oh well.


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## Mailliw

zephyr17 said:


> Honestly, when it comes to sleepers, Amtrak has a lot to straighten out before addressing 65/66/67.


And the award for understatement of the year goes to Zephyr17! Congratulations!


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## Mystic River Dragon

20th Century Rider said:


> So many problems on the 'reintroduced Night Owl' a while back... such as blaring announcements at NYP... an intermediate stop in which all were awakened at unimaginable hours [yes... I did do the actual Night Owl when I was a lot younger and remember the quiet knocking and whispers at NYP so as not to wake up passengers.] And the rudeness of todays attendants is quite discouraging... especially noted in an account by a well known travel blogger in which that included nightcap was unattainable after the train left WAS cause the cafe was not yet open... but I mean... it's a short night trip... why shouldn't it be open when the train leaves the station for the short night run.=??? And the dry roll in a 'breakfast box' for the next morning doesn't seem to serve a purpose. [The original Night Owl included reasonable food and a toilet kit similar to transatlantic business class.]
> 
> Don't know why anyone would patronize a night train with this kind of service. Amtrak has lost its way with customer service... but this is not something that is new since the pandemic and before. I certainly wouldn't want to experience such a disappointing and uncomfortable service... for any price.
> 
> There are 1st class night busses plying the BOS NYP WAS corridor with far better service at much more affordable cost.



Was the reviewer Jeb Brooks? In his Night Owl review, he said the cafe attendant yelled at him because she wasn’t open yet. He is always pleasant, upbeat, and I am sure he is polite. I can’t imagine him doing anything to incur such wrath.

Simply Railway reviewed the Night Owl as well, and when he detrained at Boston, he said it was nice getting there early in the morning but that he had a horrible night’s sleep with the track being so rough. And this from a guy who usually has no trouble falling asleep in trains all over the U.S. and Europe.


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## City of Miami

AmtrakBlue said:


> They shifted some trains. 66 now originates in Roanoke. 65/67 terminate in Newport News.


Yes, and in the discussion about new VA service on AU in another thread couple months ago there was mention of a sleeper


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## west point

The real question is will the BOS <> WASH sleeper net income be more or less than having them assigned to LD trains? That is if no external pressures are applied either for or against.
The ultimate solution would be 100 more sleepers which would allow for 3 - 4 additional sleepers on each LD train set + daily Cardinal. Of course no more LD routes turning single level.


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## Ryan

PaTrainFan said:


> Chatter = unfounded rumors and/or hopeful speculation. Meaningless.


Meaningfulness is in the eye of the beholder. Chatter from certain people can be very meaningful if one is savvy enough to know who has the best tea.


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## lordsigma

PaTrainFan said:


> Chatter = unfounded rumors and/or hopeful speculation. Meaningless.


Fair enough - meant no offense. Just sharing what I had heard - take it or leave it.


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## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Honestly, when it comes to sleepers, Amtrak has a lot to straighten out before addressing 65/66/67.


Very true.


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## 20th Century Rider

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Was the reviewer Jeb Brooks? In his Night Owl review, he said the cafe attendant yelled at him because she wasn’t open yet. He is always pleasant, upbeat, and I am sure he is polite. I can’t imagine him doing anything to incur such wrath.
> 
> Simply Railway reviewed the Night Owl as well, and when he detrained at Boston, he said it was nice getting there early in the morning but that he had a horrible night’s sleep with the track being so rough. And this from a guy who usually has no trouble falling asleep in trains all over the U.S. and Europe.


Right on... Jeb Brooks it was!


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## PaTrainFan

lordsigma said:


> Fair enough - meant no offense. Just sharing what I had heard - take it or leave it.


No offense taken, at all. I just get weary in social media with unfounded rumors being posted and taken as fact. Not saying you did that, just happens so consistently on so many venues. A level of critical thinking needs to be taken with any social media post.


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## Tlcooper93

Any updates on this saga of sleepers?

I now have have semi regular work in Baltimore that would make a sleeper car perfect and the current train options aren’t great.

I’m currently opting for the morning Acela instead of the previous overnight train.


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## Acela150

Tlcooper93 said:


> Any updates on this saga of sleepers?
> 
> I now have have semi regular work in Baltimore that would make a sleeper car perfect and the current train options aren’t great.
> 
> I’m currently opting for the morning Acela instead of the previous overnight train.



Right now, no. I think that their are some things that need to be worked out before this happens again.


----------

