# Acela is so expensive!



## AmtrakUSA (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't understand why Acela is so expensive in the Northeast corridor. What is the load like on weekday and on weekend?

I am surprised that Amtrak is not doing more, like offering more discounted tickets in off-time, to fill up the train. Is Acela Express so popular and so full that the Amtrak management does not feel the need to do that?

On one hand, you have Chinatown buses that offer $35 roundtrip between DC and NYP taking about 4.5 hours(Greyhound is matching that price). On the other hand, roundtrip air tickets between DC and NYC can be easily found that is less than the one way fare on Acela.

At least Amtrak should offer some 1,2,3-month cheap advanced fare so regular people can afford to try the service once in a while, like what the Europeans are doing with their premiere services. At least it will build some popular support for future "high speed" expansion in the US.


----------



## AmtrakWPK (Feb 12, 2007)

I frankly don't know (down here in Florida) what the load factor is on the Acelas. But if they are able to run a fairly high load factor at the existing high prices, then it would be counterproductive for them to offer any cut rate fares, because they would run the risk of selling a cut rate seat that would then be unavailable for a normal rate passenger, who would find no seats available. Some of the folks that normally ride the NEC can probably give a good read on what the load factor normally is on the Acelas. And I don't care how many months in advance you offer to buy the cut-rate seat - they would still run the risk of that seat being unavailable when a normal-rate passenger wants to sit in it, and that's lost revenue. Another argument is that if you offer lower-rate seats on Acela, that will just reduce the load factor on the other trains, and put pressure on the fares on those trains to be lowered, with the result that revenue on ALL the NEC trains would suffer.

While flying is certainly faster than a train (in the actual airplane, but not necessarily from when you got in your car 'til when you arrive at your ultimate destination), I'd much rather take the much-less-hassle train, where I don't have to drive 45 minutes to an airport, take my shoes off, spend endless hours waiting in security lines, with guards pawing through my stuff, pay ungodly parking fees, walk two miles to and from my car, have to get to the airport two hours before my flight, can't see any detail on the ground I'm flying over, and then get deposited at a jet way which is at least 15 minutes from the taxi stand at the airport, and then probably a 45-minute taxi/bus/limo from where I actually wanted to go, instead of driving to a train station 10 minutes from my house, parking for free, then arriving at a train station perhaps just a few miles (or less) from where I wanted to actually end up. If I want to go to Brazil, or the Bahamas, or Europe, or coast-to-coast in the U.S., on a short time schedule, ok, I'll fly. I can't afford a cruise.


----------



## rmgreenesq (Feb 13, 2007)

AmtrakUSA said:


> I am surprised that Amtrak is not doing more, like offering more discounted tickets in off-time, to fill up the train. Is Acela Express so popular and so full that the Amtrak management does not feel the need to do that?


In a word, yes. At least from my experience, the Acela I ride (BOS-NYP) seems to be fairly full in business. Unlike some long distace trains I've ridden, I don't ever remember having a set of two seats to myself.

And if you think the Acela is expensive, wander over to Continental's or Delta's webpage and take a gander at what they charge for a same day ticket between Boston, New York, and/or Washington.

Rick


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2007)

rmgreenesq said:


> AmtrakUSA said:
> 
> 
> > I am surprised that Amtrak is not doing more, like offering more discounted tickets in off-time, to fill up the train. Is Acela Express so popular and so full that the Amtrak management does not feel the need to do that?
> ...



I tried some fares.

One week advanced, DCA to LGA, 2/20/06, $140 roundtrip on Delta and American. One way fare on Amtrak: $173.

One day advanced, DCA to LGA is very expensive (about $400, most likely because it is sold out), but DCA to JFK roundtrip is an easy $190 on American. One way fare on Amtrak : again $173.

I think Amtrak's pricing should be a little more flexible, especially on weekend excursion fares.


----------



## rmgreenesq (Feb 13, 2007)

To reiterate what AmtrakWPK said: The prices on the Acela are so high because people are willing to pay the fare to ride the train. The Acela is absorbing the traveler that is traveling in the Northeast and has not had the luxury of planning ahead. They look at the cost and hassles associated with flying and the cost and hassles associated with the Acela and choose to take the train.

If the train is basically full and it is a little bit cheaper than the walk up fare for the airlines, I think they have priced it just about right. To charge less would be to leave money on the table. Besides, Amtrak has the option of the Regional available for the price sensative traveler.

Rick


----------



## Guest (Feb 13, 2007)

The only time I have ever been on a acela less than half full was christmas eve. I have been on many, especially discounted times, when it is over booked, and seats are almost imposable to find.

People have to remember when comparing airlines to Amtrak that Acela is a premium service (or amtrak markets it as such). Not flying between NYC and WAS, I have no idea what the quality is like in the sky, but if comparing the cheapest available price of airlines, you should really use the $70 low bucket regional, not the $115 low bucket acela. If you looked, for instance, at business class on a plane, or first class on both the acela and the plane, I expect you would find them competitive.

As for "weekend excursions" I would suggest you go for a coach ticket, or save up your AGR points. If you aren't on an expense account, go for the cheaper product.


----------



## Guest (Feb 15, 2007)

I've ridden on the Acela many times. It has always been full even on weekends. For those folks who don't live in the NE, this service is most welcomed. Besides the comfort and newness of the trains (except for those who insist on slamming the overhead compartments and making a most annoying noise), it gets you from city to city without having to take cabs or renting cars. When we go to NYC from DC we don't end up in Jersey or Long Island but right in Manhattan below Madison Square Garden. There have been many times where we just walked to our hotel. This train was always designed to compete with the airlines and their business clients and it works. Weekend trains are filled with families and others who are glad to pay the fare for a nice and convenient ride. As another poster mentioned, regional trains are a plenty and don't cost as much. Since the NE is Amtrak's cash cow, their pricing is always high even on regional trains. There were times I could go cross country in coach for less than what it took me to go from DC to NYC.


----------



## Lawrence (Oct 13, 2014)

**** NOTE THAT THIS THREAD IS 7 YEARS OLD ****

Because it is worth it.


----------



## Ryan (Oct 13, 2014)

True both 7 years ago and today.


----------



## benale (Oct 13, 2014)

Always being cost conscious and loving train travel, I only rode the Acela once when I had enough AGR points. It was an enjoyable ride,but it it only cuts off an hour or so compared to the Regionals. A lot of business people use the Acela and a lot of those trips are paid by the employer.

I'm glad I did it once,but unless somebody pays for my journey, I doubt I'll do it again.

If you are concerned about price between DC and NY or Boston,Megabus offers fares that start at $1. I've gotten those fares and the Megabus stops are at Union Station in DC, two blocks from 30th St Station in Philly, four blocks from Penn station in NY and in the bus portion of South Station in Boston. Another alternative from Philly to NY is taking the Path train to Trenton and transfer to NJ Transit.

The Acela is great and obviously is very popular, but when you are trying to save money there are many options.


----------



## Ryan (Oct 13, 2014)

I must have been too subtle. The OP is from over 7 years ago. I doubt they'll be back to read your advice (it is good advice, though).

I am wildly curious what (s)he would think about today's fares.



> I tried some fares.
> 
> One week advanced, DCA to LGA, 2/20/06, $140 roundtrip on Delta and American. One way fare on Amtrak: $173.
> 
> One day advanced, DCA to LGA is very expensive (about $400, most likely because it is sold out), but DCA to JFK roundtrip is an easy $190 on American. One way fare on Amtrak : again $173.


7 years later:

One week advanced: Amtrak is now $238 (to leave before 0500, if you want to leave at a sane hour, you're looking at $267). The airlines have jumped even more, it'll cost you $316 to fly DCA-LGA.

One day advanced: $211 Amtrak (for the 0455 Acela, later ones are the same $267). The airlines will get you for $427.

Quite the price increase!


----------



## the_traveler (Oct 13, 2014)

Note that all posts prior to post #8 were made in 2007!


----------



## VentureForth (Oct 13, 2014)

This is an intersting, historic thread that does sort of capture data from 7 years ago. Looking today at information for tomorrow, the question still begs to be answered.

I can fly non stop from Dulles to JFK tomorrow in First Class for $319. The flight time is about an hour and a quarter. First class on the first Acela of the morning, around 4:50 AM is $399 in First Class. Train time is 6 hours and 45 minutes. Even if you add an hour at the beginning and an hour at the end for security, taxi, etc., flight time is nearly half that of train travel. Now, granted, you will get to enjoy the amenities of First Class for much longer than what you would on the airplane. But let's look at coach. $233 by Acela BC vs $160 by economy air.

If time is money, why is it "worth it"?


----------



## Ryan (Oct 13, 2014)

Train time is 6h45? Try 2h45.

Where are you finding a nonstop flight from IAD-JFK in first class for that price?

Depending on where you're coming from/going to an hour on each end is woefully insufficient. You'll need to be at the airport at least an hour prior to departure, plus travel time to get to the airport (which is significant, since Dulles is way the hell out of the city).

Using the correct time for the train and a more reasonable time for the plane, the times come out similar, and the first class product on the train is light years above the first class product in a crappy regional jet.


----------



## The Whistler (Oct 13, 2014)

The Acela train is a parasite on the corporate business traveler and there are no shortage of professional business people looking to take it. When your company is picking up the tab it makes it quite easy on your wallet-LOL!. We have traveled via the Acela several times and while we like it; its hard to justify 4 times the price to save 15-30 minutes off your trip from PHL or MET to WAS. On weekends when the Acela is far from capacity, the fares are still quite high, maybe three times the cost of the regional. The Acela fares should not be that far from the regional fares but since there are no shortage of Acela passengers, even higher fares can be expected. Just for reference Acela first class is like 5 x what the regional costs but is regularly sold out. Amtrak really embraces the supply and demand formula. Capitalism at its very best!


----------



## Anderson (Oct 13, 2014)

Let me point out that with the DCA-LGA/JFK connections, folks still have to get into Manhattan.

As to load factors, the Acela runs pretty full outside of the "extreme off-peak" hours...the last train running NYP-WAS is going to empty out at PHL, for example, but you'll have a packed First Class car at least until Newark. The reverse is also true: The train may be a bit empty out of WAS at 0500, but it's usually pretty full by PHL and definitely so by NWK.

Edit: Also, Acela First (which is refundable) WAS-NYP is only 5x the non-refundable, two-week advance purchase price, then only when it is at high bucket, and _then_ you're talking about a product with 42 seats per hour instead of closer to 500 on the Regional. Additionally, to at least some extent, Amtrak is pricing PHL/MET-NYP up to squeeze out shorter-haul passengers in favor of PHL-BOS, WAS-NYP, and other longer-haul markets.


----------



## VentureForth (Oct 13, 2014)

Sorry Ryan - I composed my original post after viewing prices from WAS to BOS. I was trying to rewrite from memory after getting the thread reopened and I didn't do so well.

For tomorrow, 10/14/14 around 8:30 AM:

WAS to BOS on Acela is 6 hours and 45 minutes. Costs $399

Same Acela in BC is $266

WAS to BOS on NER is 7 hours and 55 minutes. Costs $180

Same NER in BC is $233

United Airlines from IAD to BOS is 1 hour and 34 minues. Costs $349

Same United flight in coach costs $249.

The comparison I meant to make was the full run of Acela from WAS to BOS. But the implication is the same. What makes it "worth it" to spend nearly double the time or more (including security and transit) for a minimal cost difference?

Yes, I would likely prefer to take the train, and I can be productive with a good laptop - perhaps more so than on an aircraft. But with such short flights, I don't need to be productive on a plane.


----------



## jebr (Oct 13, 2014)

Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.) Air time is just over an hour, so total time is probably about four hours (2 hours on the start, an hour at the end.)




In comparison, Acela first class starts at $277 and goes up from there. 2 hours and 50 minutes, though assume an additional hour there as well (half hour on either end) to get to destination.




Of course, by the time someone would add taxi fare on either end, it'd probably be a wash either way, depending on what time exactly they needed their flight.


----------



## VentureForth (Oct 13, 2014)

I'll concede (happily) that WAS to NYP and NYP to BOS are probably better values on the rails than they are in the air. I meant the whole route from WAS to BOS. These are all good data points. Now, to be fair, the Acela price noted above was an evening run. If you look at the 8:40 NER vs the 8:55 Acela, the price jumps from $149 to $238 - a 60% increase - to save 30 minutes, or 17% of the time.


----------



## Ryan (Oct 13, 2014)

Yeah, that gets to the point where exact timing and exact origin/destination start to make a difference.

As far as WAS-BOS, that leans far more towards the plane, which is why the Acela is best treated like two separate segments, WAS-NYP and NYP-BOS. There's a hell of a lot of turnover at NYP. That's also what the 7-year-ago-OP asked about (WAS-NYP).


----------



## CoachSlumber (Oct 13, 2014)

AmtrakUSA said:


> I don't understand why Acela is so expensive in the Northeast corridor. What is the load like on weekday and on weekend?
> 
> I am surprised that Amtrak is not doing more, like offering more discounted tickets in off-time, to fill up the train. Is Acela Express so popular and so full that the Amtrak management does not feel the need to do that?
> 
> ...


----------



## CoachSlumber (Oct 13, 2014)

Amtrak isn't in business to offer Acela so some people can afford it. It prices it as high as the market will pay for it. Acela is a premium service. Those who would rather spend less for a slower trip will choose a regular train or the Chinatown bus. They are different services with different prices


----------



## CoachSlumber (Oct 13, 2014)

the_traveler said:


> Note that all posts prior to post #8 were made in 2007!


Oops!


----------



## VentureForth (Oct 13, 2014)

But your points are still valid.


----------



## trainman74 (Oct 13, 2014)

jebr said:


> Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.)


First class on a regional jet (Delta Connection or American Eagle), eh?

Trust me, the train is much, much, much, much, much more comfortable.


----------



## SouthernServesTheSouth (Oct 13, 2014)

Train...no hassle

Plane.....weather problems, over booked flights, cancelled flights, TSA, still have to get to city


----------



## jebr (Oct 13, 2014)

Yes, trains never have hassles or delays, especially due to weather.

ETA: This is just on the NEC. While it's more than likely better than the airlines, let's not romanticize it or make it seem perfect when it's just good. I won't get started on the insanity that happens outside the NEC.


----------



## jis (Oct 13, 2014)

And we will also avoid talking about the insanity that happens more regularly than we'd like on the NEC too 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## NE933 (Oct 13, 2014)

The insanity has osmoted all throughout the world. It's everywhere.


----------



## Anderson (Oct 13, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Yeah, that gets to the point where exact timing and exact origin/destination start to make a difference.
> 
> As far as WAS-BOS, that leans far more towards the plane, which is why the Acela is best treated like two separate segments, WAS-NYP and NYP-BOS. There's a hell of a lot of turnover at NYP. That's also what the 7-year-ago-OP asked about (WAS-NYP).


Just as a general thought here, but Amtrak has been able to break into markets up to about BOS-PHL in length (which comes to somewhere around four hours, give or take). The prevailing logic before had been a three-hour limit (hence the push with the Metroliners back in the 60s)...but that was also in an era of the unlimited Eastern shuttle at a fixed price. It was a time when there was a passing chance of an airline pulling a fresh plane up to the terminal for two additional passengers, either non-existent or negligible airport security, etc.

50 years later (more or less), the variables of airport security and flight availability have apparently bumped that bar up an hour or so. That being said, there's very little endpoint traffic on the Acela (I think I've done a straight endpoint run all of once) and that was never the intended target market. Amtrak has attempted to target that market with the NEC Future proposal (which is another discussion entirely).


----------



## afigg (Oct 13, 2014)

Yes, when we discuss the Acela vs air travel markets, it is mainly WAS, BAL to NYP and NYP to BOS markets with some BOS-PHL/WIL market share. But the Acela is not just competing against air travel, but car travel as it gets a mix of business travelers and personal travel from people who are willing to pay the higher fares.

Since 2007, Amtrak has incrementally jacked up the Acela prices (with no improvements in trip time), but stills sell the tickets, as demand still exceeds the supply at the peak morning and late afternoon periods.

We don't have the September 2014 ridership and revenue numbers yet, so I can't compare FY2014 vs FY2007, but for fun, here is FY2013 vs FY07 for the Acela and the NE Regionals.

Acela Acela NE Regional NE Regional
FY Ridership Revenue Ridership Revenue 
FY2007 3,191,321 $403,571,410 6,836,646 $424,721,134
FY2013 3,343,143 $530,820,821 8,044,216 $568,744,563

Yes, Amtrak took in $127 million in revenue from the Acela in FY2013 than they did in FY2007. Tidy increase. But note the revenue and ridership increase for the Regionals.


----------



## jis (Oct 13, 2014)

As more cars become available from Midwest and more Regionals become 9 car trains and perhaps some train car trains I expect that we will continue to see the healthy growth in ridership and revenue on the Regionals.


----------



## Anderson (Oct 14, 2014)

afigg said:


> Yes, when we discuss the Acela vs air travel markets, it is mainly WAS, BAL to NYP and NYP to BOS markets with some BOS-PHL/WIL market share. But the Acela is not just competing against air travel, but car travel as it gets a mix of business travelers and personal travel from people who are willing to pay the higher fares.
> 
> Since 2007, Amtrak has incrementally jacked up the Acela prices (with no improvements in trip time), but stills sell the tickets, as demand still exceeds the supply at the peak morning and late afternoon periods.
> 
> ...


Acela Acela Acela NE Regional NE Regional NE Regional 
FY Ridership Revenue PPR Ridership Revenue PPR 
FY2007 3,191,321 $403,571,410 $126.46 6,836,646 $424,721,134 $62.12 
FY2013 3,343,143 $530,820,821 $158.78 8,044,216 $568,744,563 $70.70 
Change +4.76% +31.53% +25.56% +17.66% +33.91% +13.81%

Here's the thing: The Acela has basically been slammed up against some degree of a capacity wall most of this time (a break for the recession notwithstanding) and Amtrak has been trying to outrun the demand wall. Too many sold-out trains are a problem, since it forces away late-booking travelers on those loose expense accounts. Amtrak does _not_ want that to happen, so Acela fares have been climbing a wall lately. The Regionals have started seeing this more recently (last 2-3 years) amid rising ridership (a non-trivial portion of which is follow-through ridership from VA which does not get covered here).


----------



## PerRock (Oct 14, 2014)

jebr said:


> Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.) Air time is just over an hour, so total time is probably about four hours (2 hours on the start, an hour at the end.)
> 
> In comparison, Acela first class starts at $277 and goes up from there. 2 hours and 50 minutes, though assume an additional hour there as well (half hour on either end) to get to destination.
> 
> Of course, by the time someone would add taxi fare on either end, it'd probably be a wash either way, depending on what time exactly they needed their flight.


Jebr, your comparing Apples to Oranges. For an accurate comparison you need to be looking at the up-scale airline seats, not the cheap economy class seats. Checking Delta (as that was the primary carrier pictured. Biz Class for tomorrow (10-15) starts at $297 and goes up from there.

It's probably the #1 thing that annoys me when people complain about Amtrak fares. They'll say that a sleeper is too expensive on Amtrak & then compare the cost to an economy airline seat. If you're going to look at an upgraded Amtrak seat (Biz, Slep, 1st) make sure you look at an upgraded airline seat as well!

peter

_Authors Note: So in writing this I looked at a couple different flight websites. In the end I quoted from Delta themselves. However most sites had prices in about the same range, Google Flights however found flights for almost $100 cheaper, that none of the other sites found. An 1st class seat on US Air for $207!_


----------



## jis (Oct 14, 2014)

It depends on the temporal length of the journey. For example I routinely fly economy cross country on a 5-6 hour flight, but I will not travel coach on Amtrak for 2.5 to 3 days to travel between the same two points. OTOH on the NEC it is no contest. I will always take a Regional or Acela.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jebr (Oct 14, 2014)

PerRock said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.) Air time is just over an hour, so total time is probably about four hours (2 hours on the start, an hour at the end.)
> ...


I was. In the post, it shows in small print in the lower right hand corner of each fare that it is a first class seat, not an economy seat. (I had to dig a bit to find the option to only show first class fares, but I was able to find it.)


----------



## Shortline (Oct 14, 2014)

trainman74 said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Just did a search. Flights start at $230 for first class for tomorrow (I just searched all WAS airports to all NYC airports.)
> ...


I personally prefer FC on Regional jets-unlike MD80/88/737/A320 and larger AC, the RJ's have a FC cabin with 2-1 seating, which I like. I usually book early enough to book the single seat side. Even without that, the 2 side is still larger than an Amtrak BC seat in the non-2-1 cars, and equivalent to the 2-1 BC on the Wolverine.

While I generally do NOT like coach on Regional airliners, and avoid the CRJ 100/200 at all costs, I do enjoy FC on the CRJ 700/900, and EMB 175's. I spend a lot of time on the larger RJ's, and usually in First. Not a bad way to travel at all.

The thing about Acela, is the exclusivity of it. It's really not THAT much faster than a Regional train, but sometimes minutes count, and the clientele tend to be more professional, than the average coach train. Similar to BC on the Pennsylvanian, even though it's essentially the same as one of the Amfleet II coaches, the BC cars tend to be quieter, cleaner, and have a more professional feel, which I prefer. Worth the extra to upgrade, just for the difference in surroundings.


----------

