# 10-20+% accommodation fare increase?



## F900ElCapitan (Nov 4, 2019)

So I keep a fairly good eye on the long distance sleeper fares. It helps me when I’m ready to plan a trip. I ran through the prices this morning and am noticing a very substantial increase in sleeper fares. Most are up around 10%. I watch the Texas Eagle very regularly since it’s the easiest train for me to catch and it took a big hit. There was word that the lowest buckets were to be eliminated and it looks like it happened. Compared to last years fares the cheapest roomette for two adults from FTW to CHI went from the lowest bucket of $408 to $488, and the cheapest bedroom has increased from $631 to $816. 

I’m also seeing at least a 10% increases across the rest of the western trains. I don’t watch the eastern trains as much, maybe somebody else can chime in if there has been a substantial increase over there also.

I hope everyone had already booked their summer travel.


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## SanDiegan (Nov 4, 2019)

Just another part of the plan to kill long distance trains. Raise fares and cut service amenities. Have lots of “flash sales” for Northeast and other corridors.


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## merkelman06 (Nov 4, 2019)

The rail fare is no longer low bucket when buying sleepers anymore. I am not sure what bucket it is. When pricing several upcoming trips it is between the value and flexible fare. Example is from BHM to NOL:

Saver $39
Value $49
Flexible $94
Sleeper $62 plus roomette charge.

So i'm not sure where the $62 comes from or how they figure rail fare with sleepers now.


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## boxcar479 (Nov 4, 2019)

Since I am in midst of planning a trip. I did not want to look, but I did anyway. The trip I am planning CZ - SEA was $754 yesterday it is now $848. Not quite a hundred bucks, but close enough. Time to quit planning I suppose.


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 4, 2019)

boxcar479 said:


> Since I am in midst of planning a trip. I did not want to look, but I did anyway. The trip I am planning CZ - SEA was $754 yesterday it is now $848. Not quite a hundred bucks, but close enough. Time to quit planning I suppose.



Unfortunately you got caught up in this. But as far as planning goes, I doubt they’ll do another across the board increase anytime soon, so you’re fairly safe to keep planning outside of the normal bucket increase with sales. I was lucky and booked a roomette from DAL to LAX and then business to SLO a few weeks ago. The same trip is now about $40 higher.


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## niemi24s (Nov 4, 2019)

F900ElCapitan said:


> There was word that the lowest buckets were to be eliminated and it looks like it happened.


There was word??

I'm quite sure the three sleeping accommodations on the Superliners still have their usual five buckets. That conclusion is based on the fact that Roomette upcharges for the full route of the TE/SWC currently show five different values, ranging from $421 to $956. These represent increases ranging from about 7 to 15% when compared to the upcharges of three months ago. 

Spent about 30 minutes on AmSnag looking for all five buckets for the Family Bedroom and Bedroom, but only found four buckets for each. But those four buckets correspond nicely with the top four previous buckets.

I conclude there are still five buckets for each sleeper upcharge, but the low buckets for the FB and B are simply not offered - at least I couldn't find them during my short search. Regarding Coach buckets, only five different ones could be found. The sixth (highest) Coach bucket wasn't offered - just like three months ago. Low bucket Coach rose $4 to $183.

In short, the bucket _structure_ for the TE/SWC seems unchanged - the only change being the increases.


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 4, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> There was word??
> 
> I'm quite sure the three sleeping accommodations on the Superliners still have their usual five buckets. That conclusion is based on the fact that Roomette upcharges for the full route of the TE/SWC currently show five different values, ranging from $421 to $956. These represent increases ranging from about 7 to 15% when compared to the upcharges of three months ago.
> 
> ...



Good catch. It was on a different thread that a comment was made that an Amtrak agent actually said the lowest bucket was being eliminated for this train. Although, in a way I can see what they are saying since the increase was so much that the new low bucket is higher than the previous low bucket +1. But in the end, yes there are 5 bucket levels for roomettes, but maybe it was just bedrooms that the agent was speaking of.

None the less, this has been a much larger than normal fare increase for this train.


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## JC_620 (Nov 4, 2019)

Yes, but it is not exclusively limited to the TE/SWC trains which I actually thought that it was. This also puts a wrinkle in my travel planning as well. Just the other day, it appeared that the "high bucket" bedroom fare on #449 was $1,217. As I looked just now, it is something like $1,245. That is significant. SWC was $1,298 for a bedroom not too long ago as well between Chicago and Flagstaff, now it is $1,345. Insanity..


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## bratkinson (Nov 4, 2019)

What may seem to some that there's a general fare increase happening, seems to me more like people looking only between now and Jan 1 2020 and seeing the natural increase in fares as seats and rooms fill up. A few minutes ago, I did a price check on a couple of LD trips I did earlier this year with the same segments from Jan 15 2020 forward using Amsnag. There price increases between the two were all under $10 for a roomette. 

Which brings me to my 'rules' for booking LD travel...book at least 3 months in advance, further if possible to get the best prices. Given we are entering the holiday season, booking any trips from now until 1/5 or so will be on the more expensive side as the 'cheap rooms' are long gone.

Almost forgot...If I recall correctly, I think across-the-board general price increases usually come into being in mid January.


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## JC_620 (Nov 4, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> What may seem to some that there's a general fare increase happening, seems to me more like people looking only between now and Jan 1 2020 and seeing the natural increase in fares as seats and rooms fill up. A few minutes ago, I did a price check on a couple of LD trips I did earlier this year with the same segments from Jan 15 2020 forward using Amsnag. There price increases between the two were all under $10 for a roomette.
> 
> Which brings me to my 'rules' for booking LD travel...book at least 3 months in advance, further if possible to get the best prices. Given we are entering the holiday season, booking any trips from now until 1/5 or so will be on the more expensive side as the 'cheap rooms' are long gone.
> 
> Almost forgot...If I recall correctly, I think across-the-board general price increases usually come into being in mid January.


I'm sorry, but I am new here so could you explain then to me how the same available bedroom would go up in price a small percentage if there are only a limited number of bedrooms available to begin with? My impression was that the bedroom on the LSL was already at high bucket because the other one was sold. #449 typically only has the Boston sleeper. On #49 out of Albany, the fare was just as high, clocking in at $1,123 just days ago.


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## bratkinson (Nov 4, 2019)

JC_620 said:


> I'm sorry, but I am new here so could you explain then to me how the same available bedroom would go up in price a small percentage if there are only a limited number of bedrooms available to begin with? My impression was that the bedroom on the LSL was already at high bucket because the other one was sold. #449 typically only has the Boston sleeper. On #49 out of Albany, the fare was just as high, clocking in at $1,123 just days ago.



Amtrak uses some kind of 'revenue maximization' pricing algorithms similar to airlines. The closer to departure date and/or the fewer number of roomettes/bedrooms available both cause prices to increase. I just now did a price check on #49 bedrooms Feb 1 - Mar 1 ALB-CHI using Amsnag and it shows a low of $570 for 2/1 and 2/2 then $1151 thereafter. On #449, it was $1151 across the board. From what I've seen in the past, Amtrak starts at a ridiculously high price to 'test the waters'. Then, a couple months out, based on volume of sales, they lower it, sometimes significantly.

Of note, however, is that for January, the same bedrooms are priced at $570/723/1151 in seemingly random order. I'm also suspicious that Amtrak.com uses cookies on your computer to determine if you've looked at the same itinerary before and may give different prices. In other words, clean off your cookies and reboot your computer...you might just find different prices!

As an aside, perhaps the abundance of $1151 is the result of sleeping car passengers that endured contemporary dining within the past year+ are NOT returning. Just a thought.


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 4, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> What may seem to some that there's a general fare increase happening, seems to me more like people looking only between now and Jan 1 2020 and seeing the natural increase in fares as seats and rooms fill up. A few minutes ago, I did a price check on a couple of LD trips I did earlier this year with the same segments from Jan 15 2020 forward using Amsnag. There price increases between the two were all under $10 for a roomette.
> 
> Which brings me to my 'rules' for booking LD travel...book at least 3 months in advance, further if possible to get the best prices. Given we are entering the holiday season, booking any trips from now until 1/5 or so will be on the more expensive side as the 'cheap rooms' are long gone.
> 
> Almost forgot...If I recall correctly, I think across-the-board general price increases usually come into being in mid January.



I just did some Amsnag searches for 8, 6, and 4 for January, and yes the accommodation part of the fare has only increased slightly. But as others have pointed out, the rail fare portion of the fare has gone from low bucket to what I think is low bucket plus 1. This is increasing the total fare by quite a bit, especially for people like me who usually have two people in a room.


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## RebelRider (Nov 5, 2019)

The sleeper buckets did not change. What happened is the railfare component is now pricing one step up with with YB fare instead of YD. As noticed, it went into effect yesterday, November 4, 2019. Interestingly, the same applies to Auto Train where the railfare will go up, but the accommodation charges are being dropped back to the level prior to the fare increase of September 24.


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 5, 2019)

RebelRider said:


> The sleeper buckets did not change. What happened is the railfare component is now pricing one step up with with YB fare instead of YD. As noticed, it went into effect yesterday, November 4, 2019. Interestingly, the same applies to Auto Train where the railfare will go up, but the accommodation charges are being dropped back to the level prior to the fare increase of September 24.



This does appear to be the case. In addition on the Texas Eagle, it appears they are now only selling the top 3 buckets for bedrooms, and on the Southwest Chief they are selling the top 4 buckets. At least for western trains the accommodation charges appear to be holding at the post September 24 rate, maybe this will change.


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## ref5035 (Nov 5, 2019)

How does one find...amsnag....?


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## pennyk (Nov 5, 2019)

ref5035 said:


> How does one find...amsnag....?


http://biketrain.x10.mx/amsnag2.0/amSnag.php


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## TinCan782 (Nov 5, 2019)

I also observed over this past weekend, a jump in fares.
Several months ago I booked a bedroom for two (points) on the Sunset Limited LAX to NOL for next summer. The booking was eleven months out, the maximum.
Since then, I have been monitoring the fare changes out of curiosity and the accommodation I purchased is now $576 (19,872 points) higher!
I have been checking a 30 day period around my travel date. This morning's check on AmSnag shows only two buckets for that train: $1788 and $1552.
It will be interesting to see what happens after the holidays and we get into this coming spring.


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## niemi24s (Nov 6, 2019)

JC_620 said:


> Just the other day, it appeared that the "high bucket" bedroom fare on #449 was $1,217. As I looked just now, it is something like $1,245. That is significant. SWC was $1,298 for a bedroom not too long ago as well between Chicago and Flagstaff, now it is $1,345. Insanity..



Significant? Insanity?? Please get a grip on reality.

Your reported increases are only 2.3% and 3.6%, respectively.


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## JC_620 (Nov 6, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> Your reported increases are only 2.3% and 3.6%, respectively.


....which has still been a much larger than normal fare increase for this train...respectively speaking.


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## tim49424 (Nov 6, 2019)

I booked a round trip from Holland to Seattle on Sunday for mid February. I checked the price yesterday after reading this thread and sure enough, for my round trip in a roomette on the Empire Builder and coach on the Hiawatha and Pere Marquette, there was about $140 of an increase. Talk about timing!


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## dogbert617 (Nov 7, 2019)

tim49424 said:


> I booked a round trip from Holland to Seattle on Sunday for mid February. I checked the price yesterday after reading this thread and sure enough, for my round trip in a roomette on the Empire Builder and coach on the Hiawatha and Pere Marquette, there was about $140 of an increase. Talk about timing!



$140 fare increase? That's f-ing insane! Sigh, I do sometimes worry quietly myself, if some in Amtrak want to depress ridership enough to kill off long distance trains. Ugh I HATE sounding way over worried and conspiracy-theory like, but with the way Richard Anderson and Co. cost cut things on Amtrak a lot and are slowly pushing prices up, not to forget impose restrictions to make it less likely private cars will be approved to carry on the rear of a long distance train, I sometimes worry if Anderson and Co are trying to kill off certain parts of Amtrak? I hope I am proven wrong on that, though!


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## Larry H. (Nov 8, 2019)

Its sad that with government run, or at least funded rail service, we no longer just have a simple and stable list of pricing. Before Amtrak and the push to be totally self sufficient, Rail roads put out a printed schedule with one exact cost you could depend on and not have to go to endless maneuvers to know what your cost will be. And despite what many say, the sleeper fares are far higher than they ever were before Amtrak compared to Coach. I used to get a room for maybe a third higher than coach fares, try that today!


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## Bonser (Nov 8, 2019)

Larry H. said:


> Its sad that with government run, or at least funded rail service, we no longer just have a simple and stable list of pricing. Before Amtrak and the push to be totally self sufficient, Rail roads put out a printed schedule with one exact cost you could depend on and not have to go to endless maneuvers to know what your cost will be. And despite what many say, the sleeper fares are far higher than they ever were before Amtrak compared to Coach. I used to get a room for maybe a third higher than coach fares, try that today!


Agree. I've been checking a LSL or CARD-CZ Bedroom (Newark or NY-SF) in early May for my wife and myself. In past month fares ranged from $2450 to 3250. or thereabouts. As of today it's $2799 or $2836, depending whether the departure is from Newark or NY. We've done this trip 8 times, most recently in January. The most we've paid is $1850, lowest was $1386. Also, on site Amtrak doesn't give me option of NY-DC-Chi on CL. They seem to be intentionally trying to drive LD users away. Maybe the price will drop - I still have time to book - but I'm starting to think not. What gives? Advice?


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## niemi24s (Nov 8, 2019)

I've only been keeping tabs on Amtrak fares since Oct, 2015 and here's my take on what gives. It's nothing more than which of the five possible sleeper accommodation upcharges is offered for your date of travel and (this is important too) the date you buy your tickets. 

• Currently, the range of total fares for two adults in a Bedroom from NYP to EMY is from $1,828 to $3,463. My earliest bucket chart of October, 2015 shows that
• back then, the range of total fares (same passengers and start/stop points) ranged from $1,619 to $3,194.
• Between those two points in time the total low bucket fare for your trip has risen $209 (12.9%) and the high bucket fare has risen $269 (8.4%)

The reason the date you buy your ticket is important is that (if you sniff around at Amtrak fares enough) you'll find that the fare for travel on a given date _can_ change from one day to the next. And things can get exciting if your date of travel is flexible - I've seen upcharges for a sleeping accommodation posted at five different prices (or buckets) on five consecutive days!

You might wonder if any of this is predictable. I quit wondering years ago after concluding the only thing predictable about Amtrak fares is its unpredictability.


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## niemi24s (Nov 8, 2019)

A little arithmetic to find the totals of mid-bucket upcharges for Roomettes and Bedrooms on ten comparable LD trains for Oct 2015 and Nov 2019 shows they have increased an average of 3.1% per year during that four year period.

But enough of this factual bazanga.


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## Anderson (Nov 8, 2019)

The main thing that seems to have happened is that Amtrak made the lowest bucket "vanish" on a few routes. Now, whether or not it stays gone or not is an open question (this could easily be a seasonal "stunt"). That's not to say it isn't annoying, but it also isn't the end of the world.


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## niemi24s (Nov 8, 2019)

My gut tells me that because every train (except for two) has at least one sleeping accommodation offered with with all five buckets, there are indeed five buckets in Arrow for each one on each train - but not all are seen as they've not yet been offered. As time goes on, some or most of the buckets shown in my chart as [ESTIMATED] will be eventually offered and if I care enough to perform AmSnag searches for them they'll be posted to my master copy of the chart.

But I don't anticipate all of the [ESTIMATED] buckets to be offered or at least spotted when offered. I only search for missing buckets when there's absolutely nothing else for me to do and I'm bored to tears.

Some might wonder: how can I tell which bucket is being offered if only a single bucket can be found? Just by comparison with the previous bucket chart and comparison with buckets already found for other sleepers on the same train. Estimates of the missing buckets are made knowing Coach buckets follow a roughly geometric progression and sleeper buckets follow a roughly arithmetic progression.

But the title of this thread is not the least bit misleading: the largest sleeper upcharge increases seen between Jan 2019 and now are for Roomettes on the SS which are up from 22 to 29%.

I'll end this by proclaiming each sleeping accommodation does in fact have five buckets - but not all have yet to be offered (or noticed, when offered). But anyone who thinks there are a few accommodations with only four buckets programmed into Arrow are perfectly free to think so. This is, after all, the land of the free and the home of the brave.


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 9, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> My gut tells me that because every train (except for two) has at least one sleeping accommodation offered with with all five buckets, there are indeed five buckets in Arrow for each one on each train - but not all are seen as they've not yet been offered. As time goes on, some or most of the buckets shown in my chart as [ESTIMATED] will be eventually offered and if I care enough to perform AmSnag searches for them they'll be posted to my master copy of the chart.
> 
> But I don't anticipate all of the [ESTIMATED] buckets to be offered or at least spotted when offered. I only search for missing buckets when there's absolutely nothing else for me to do and I'm bored to tears.
> 
> ...



Niemi, I very much respect your work on the bucket list and I actually use it quite a bit. It’s helped with my understanding of Amtrak fares and what to expect, thank you!

But the whole story behind this thread isn’t that the sleeper upcharge portion of the fare has gone up a lot, but that a higher bucket coach fare is being used to calculate the total fare and that a number of lower bucket accommodation upcharges (the bottom two buckets for bedrooms on the TE) are not being offered currently. Even for my example of the TE from FTW to CHI the old roomette low bucket price for two people was $408, today it is $488, pretty darn close to a 20% total purchase increase. I could go on with each train and each accommodation, but trust me, my original 10%-20% increase is very close for the full purchasing fare. It just turns out that the coach portion is the one that increased more.

Maybe I could have worded the title differently, but to be honest, I hadn’t realized the full scope of the increase and why. The awesome observations and input of this community has helped everyone learn and understand why the fares went up so much.


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## Rail Freak (Nov 9, 2019)

Thank You, Amsnag!!!!


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## niemi24s (Nov 9, 2019)

Yikes!

I thought I knew a little about the fare structure, but after looking at what Arrow says about your FTW to CHI trip in a low bucket Roomette (date chosen for just that) I feel like Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes - I know nothing!

For the FTW to CHI trip on a low bucket Roomette date Arrow gives 2 Adults = $344 (two pax at one bucket above low bucket) and 1 Superliner Roomette = $144 (low bucket Roomette discounted by 20%) totaling $488.

Checking a couple of other LD trains shows AMTRAK IS ADDING THE NEXT-TO-LOWEST BUCKET (not lowest bucket) ONTO A DISCOUNTED SLEEPER UPCHARGE WHEN THE BOOKING IS FOR TWO PASSENGERS!!! If not mistaken, in years past one could accurately calculate sleeper fares for two people by simply simply doubling the low bucket Coach fare and adding the sleeper upcharge for the day of travel. 


Amtrak states: "The purchase of sleeping accommodations is considered to be an upgrade to your regular rail fare. The charge is applied as an add-on, usually to the lowest rail fare available. When you share a sleeper, you will be charged only one accommodation charge for all parties sharing the sleeping accommodation. Each passenger pays regular rail fare.

Sleeping car accommodation charges vary according to customer demand. In general, we suggest you book early to get the best price."

Note my emphasis on "usually". Not so simple now. 

Q: Is this a fluke in Arrow or a policy change?


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 10, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> Yikes!
> 
> Q: Is this a fluke in Arrow or a policy change?



Yep, and that is the current and correct question.


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## niemi24s (Nov 10, 2019)

FWIW, my most recent trip for two in a sleeper in April 2017, the Coach portion of the total fare was based on 2X the low bucket coach fare back then of $176. And the sleeper upcharge was precisely the low bucket Bedroom upcharge at that time of $688.

This new system when booking for two pax of using the next-highest Coach bucket and a discounted sleeper fare may be nothing but a clever way of raking in a bit more revenue while helping the F&B slice of the pie to appear closer to breaking even. Maybe. Maybe not.


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## Anderson (Nov 10, 2019)

I'm reading some tea leaves, but I think what happened is this:

Amtrak announced improvements to the sleeper hard product (blankets, mattresses, and the like) a month or two back. Those were supposed to be rolling out; the PR implied it would be alongside the new F&B for the eastern trains. I'm guessing that they planned the fare hike alongside that (_which would make sense_). That's been slow in coming out but they implemented the fare hike anyway.


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 10, 2019)

Agreed, I booked a roomette from DAL to SLO just a few weeks ago. I was able to get the low bucket rail fare portion and a low bucket roomette price, and then added business class on the Coast Starlight for the remainder. I used points and am glad I booked when I did as the price is about $40 higher from FTW and a fare bit more from DAL as I got the last low bucket roomette from there, as in one opens up in FTW.


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## niemi24s (Nov 10, 2019)

The feature I find particularly aggravating about this new pricing system is that it creates a separate set of sleeper buckets for two passengers. 

• Prior to this, you could find the low bucket fare for two sleeper passengers from a bucket chart (such as the one in Post #22) by simply doubling the low bucket Coach fare and adding the low bucket sleeper upcharge.

• Now you have to double the next-to-lowest Coach bucket and add a low bucket sleeper upcharge that's discounted by a certain amount. Oddly enough, for the TE and SWC at least, the amount of that discount from the single passenger upcharge for any type of sleeper or bucket level is the fixed amount of $49!

While the utility of AmSnag remains (as you can select fares for 1 or 2 passengers) the utility of the bucket chart remains only for a one passenger booking - as that's how AmSnag was set up for each search. And I'm not about to churn up a separate bucket chart for two passengers. The whiz-kid that came up with this new fare scheme must have wrote the book on creative accounting.

On the bright side, the bucket chart based on a single passenger booking can still be used to find _dates_ for low bucket fares for two passengers by just setting up AmSnag for a one passenger search and look for dates with the low bucket fare from the chart. Then use Amtrak/Arrow and the date you found to find the actual fare. This, of course, assumes any date for a low bucket sleeper for one passenger is also a low bucket date for two passengers.


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## Anderson (Nov 11, 2019)

One thing to speak in vague defense of the change to sleeper pricing: I believe that there have been at least some cases where adding a person to the sleeper cost less than the F&B would have cost. At a bare minimum, there are plenty of cases where it's a toss-up (the $188 fare SEA-CHI on the Builder has to cover two dinners, two breakfasts, and two lunches; assigning $35 for the sticker price on dinner and $15 each for breakfast and lunch, that's $130 of the $188 gone right back out on F&B), and two in a roomette is pretty tight for two days, but I can at least see the logic on that.

For another example, on what we had before Am-R-Es, if a second person added to a roomette WAS-RVR and "maxed out" at dinner (salad, soda, land and sea combo, and dessert), Amtrak _lost_ on that vis-a-vis the posted food price (which was going to come in somewhere north of $40 while low bucket was still in the upper $30s).

Edit: And of course, none of this gets into "stupid roomette tricks" and the like...

Anyhow, none of what I've said here defends Amtrak's "surprise" handling of this stuff. But it does stand to at least explain it.


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## niemi24s (Nov 11, 2019)

Anderson said:


> . . .none of this gets into "stupid roomette tricks" and the like...


Q: Stupid roomette tricks?


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## Anderson (Nov 11, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> Q: Stupid roomette tricks?


A: What you would tend to get when a last-minute roomette was at low bucket while a seat on a Regional was at high bucket. There were numerous times over the years where I saved money taking the Meteor (with breakfast/dinner included) RVR-NYP or vv versus a closely-timed Regional _in coach_. It has, over the years, not been uncommon at all to save $20-40 versus Regional Business Class. I made the term up riffing off of "Stupid Human Tricks".


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## neroden (Nov 11, 2019)

For the length of the trip, the LSL/Cardinal/Crescent/Meteor prices are pretty nosebleed high, and with the removal of food service, they're starting to not sell out. Proper management (something we rarely see from Amtrak) would be: Get those new Viewliners into service, introduce quality food for a price, lower the sleeper prices a little, and make more money on higher volume.


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## Anderson (Nov 11, 2019)

I think this has (possibly) forced my "pain point" on the Meteor from fourth bucket to third bucket (bearing in mind that RVR-ORL tends to be at least a few dollars cheaper than NYP-MIA).

Also, for confirmation is the Star cheaper in sleeper than in coach at top bucket? Or am I misreading those fares?

NB The Cardinal has always been somewhat "overpriced" so as to preserve space for O/D pax at IND, CIN, CVS, etc.

Honestly, what I would have done is the following:
-Get the new sleepers into service
-Bump the sleeper fares modestly, but only either alongside or after both:
--Implementing an improved hard product (mattresses, etc.), since the cost here should be relatively nominal; and
--_Improving_ the food service for sleeper pax and jack the nominal pricing alongside it. I would probably do something "sneaky" like including a complementary cocktail at dinner (in line with the new offering) and spike the pricing accordingly.

Adding an extra sleeper to most trains should at least make a dent in the diner numbers.


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## chakk (Nov 11, 2019)

Larry H. said:


> Its sad that with government run, or at least funded rail service, we no longer just have a simple and stable list of pricing. Before Amtrak and the push to be totally self sufficient, Rail roads put out a printed schedule with one exact cost you could depend on and not have to go to endless maneuvers to know what your cost will be. And despite what many say, the sleeper fares are far higher than they ever were before Amtrak compared to Coach. I used to get a room for maybe a third higher than coach fares, try that today!



Oh yeah?

From my Baltimore & Ohio system timetable issued April 24, 1955:

Washington, D.C. to Chicago one-way

Coach: $28.50
Roomette: $50.65

That's a 78% increase in total fare.


And another.

New York City to San Antonio, TX one-way


Coach: $57.70
Roomette: $134.54

That's a 133% increase in total fare.

Q.E.D.


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## Anderson (Nov 11, 2019)

So, I did an analysis on this a few years back. Running it again would be interesting.

Basically, I took the fares for several city pairs on the Silver Meteor and checked them against the pre-Amtrak numbers, adjusted for inflation. I did this because my understanding is that the Florida services were, to my understanding, profitable either to the end or right up close to it. What I found was this:
-The 1968/9 era sleeper fares roughly correlated to high bucket for the equivalents (roomette/roomette and bedroom/bedroom).
-Coach was also close to the high bucket.

Now, at least as of now high bucket is mostly a peak-season "thing" as well as covering tickets sold within perhaps an hour of departure...but it generally doesn't show up much otherwise...and this is only looking at Seaboard's numbers, not anything that was happening on the B&O (or NYC, or ATSF...).

The main reason we're seeing a bigger gap open up between sleepers and coach has (generally) had less to do with sleeper passengers getting jacked than it does with coach fares coming down.


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## niemi24s (Nov 11, 2019)

Anderson said:


> Also, for confirmation is the Star cheaper in sleeper than in coach at top bucket?


No. See the first NOTE at the bottom of the chart.

The Star Coach high bucket for one pax is $353 (Flexible Fare) as on 17 Nov, Southbound.

The Star Roomette high bucket for one pax is $466, but here's where it gets goofy:

• Per the bucket chart $466 = $162 (low bucket Coach) + $304 (high bucket Roomette upcharge), but for the 17 Nov Northbound Star
• Per Amtrak & Arrow, $466 = $212 (next bucket Coach) + $254 (next bucket Roomette discounted by $10)

For one pax, the chart seems to give the correct totals when any sleeper bucket is added to the low bucket Coach fare. But (due to what seems like creative accounting shenanigans) Arrow uses different values to come up with the same total (next bucket Coach + discounted sleeper upcharge).

Clear as mud to me - make any sense to you? 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ding!

It just came to me that I blundered into this bucket chart update using the old sleeper pricing system (sleeper fare = low bucket Coach + whatever the sleeper upchare was). Using AmSnag, the first step was to find all 5 Coach buckets plus the Saver fare. This done to determine the low bucket Coach fare - the one just above Saver. This low bucket Coach fare was then subtracted from all the total sleeper fares for one passenger because up to now, the total sleeper fare was always the low bucket Coach + the sleeper upcharge.

But it now appears that total sleeper fares are based on the _next_ highest Coach bucket. This, in turn, means that each of the sleeper buckets on the chart is too high by some amount and also that the charts posted in this thread both have incorrect sleeper upcharge buckets (coach buckets are OK).

Merkelman06 mentioned this a week ago in Post #3 and it went in one eye and out the other! Aaaarrgggghhhhh! Back to the drawing board!!


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## Anderson (Nov 12, 2019)

So, I threw RVR-ORL into Amsnag. The fares I'm getting for a roomette run from $392-692 for the _Meteor_ and $329-382 for the _Star _(with a bunch of days sold out for the Star as well, suggesting that $382 is high bucket for the _Star_).

Outside of low bucket, there's a good chance this knocks me over to Delta.

I never thought I'd say this, but at this point I honestly hope the _Star_ stays without its diner. It was a tough case to make with the full diner on occasion, but I can say with near certainty that the new stuff simply is not worth an extra $200-310.

(As an aside, by comparison, capping the _Star_ at $382 is borderline yield management malpractice given its constrained capacity.)


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## Anderson (Nov 12, 2019)

Just an addendum to the above, but I went ahead and threw the Seaboard Coast Line fares through an inflation calculator. In 1968, a roomette cost $53.62; in 1971, it cost $61.71. These come out to $385-390 and $390-395, depending on the calculator (the differences likely being methodological).

Congrats to Amtrak: Low bucket in a sleeper on the _Meteor_ is now tied with what I would have paid under private management and all I can get is a decent TV dinner on board.


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## nferr (Nov 12, 2019)

You paid separately for your meals in 1968.


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## Anderson (Nov 12, 2019)

True, but I think we could probably reasonably allow between $15 and $80 for the included meals: Southbound out of RVR, it is too late for dinner so you're looking at breakfast and _maybe_ lunch. So call it $15 for a decent breakfast and don't bother with lunch if you're on-time on the low end, $15 for lunch and $35 if you get a "full" dinner NB. Another $15 or so each way if the train is late and you end up with breakfast (NB) or lunch (SB). $80 would cover a three-course dinner and a bit of overkill at both breakfast and lunch, or perhaps an additional non-dinner meal if the train is late.

And the meals in question would also be something I'd look forward to. I would _happily_ pay separately for a meal I wanted, served at a table with the most basic pass at presentation (i.e. putting sugar and creamer in a bowl instead of on a cardboard plate) versus what is on offer at this point. At this point I'd rather Amtrak just didn't bother including the meal. If I'm gonna get a takeout box, let me at least choose takeout I really want.

Edit: And do note that the _Champion_ had almost precisely the timetable of the _Meteor _these days, so the circumstances are just about spot-on. The timetables for the _Silver Star_ are also quite close.


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## niemi24s (Nov 13, 2019)

Here is the latest revised version of the fare bucket chart:


Some differences between this chart and all previous ones:
• No estimates of fares not offered (or observed being offered)
• Sleeper fares include the Coach portion, which is the next bucket above low bucket (with the >)

Auto Train fares are those for the Southbound train as fares are a few dollars less ($5 or less) for the Northbound train at this time. This was noticed a few years ago after a general fare increase, then after some months the two Auto Trains equalized. No idea why.

Compared to fares in the Jan 2019 chart, low bucket Roomette fares for one adult have risen from 11% to 17%.

Moderators may delete those incorrect charts in Post #22 and 40.


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## pennyk (Nov 13, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> Moderators may delete those incorrect charts in Post #22 and 40.



done


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## F900ElCapitan (Nov 13, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> Here is the latest revised version of the fare bucket chart:
> View attachment 15779
> 
> Some differences between this chart and all previous ones:
> ...



Thank you very much Niemi, as I said before, I really enjoy your charts, they help immensely!! It was very surprising to see the rise in the rail fare portion. I am still wondering if this still might be a bit of a temporary raise, or a way to cushion revenue so that more sales can be offered. Personally I think this was calculated and they are setting up for more sales, using the higher prices as a base. This also may be one aspect that Anderson is looking to milk the popular sleepers to raise revenue to the desired level to achieve break even or profit level operating costs. My dear hope is he is able to get to that level, and then be able to make some more service improvements, including much better meal options. I guess we’ll have to wait and see at this point.


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## niemi24s (Nov 13, 2019)

Thanks pennyk and F900ElCapitan. I keep a copy of the chart handy to plan trips. Knowing in advance what the low bucket fares are makes it a little easier travel at minimum cost as my travel dates _usually_ have a lot of flexibility.

And posting a small section of it...
...makes it a little easier to explain the bucket system to someone new to train travel. Usually take a copy with me on the train in case somebody needs it 'splained to them.


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## niemi24s (Dec 7, 2019)

Here's an updated version of the fare bucket chart in Post #48 showing many additional high bucket Coach fares:




With the exception of the Auto Train, these high bucket coach fares differ significantly from previous ones in that each is only a mere 2% more than the next lower bucket. For the past many years, Coach buckets progressed in a roughly geometric progression with each being _about _25% greater that the one below. No idea why the Auto Train high bucket Coach fare follows the previous pattern.

Summary when compared to January 2019 data:

• Upcharges for a low bucket Roomette have risen 2%
• Coach (rail) fares for any sleeper have risen an average of 31%


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## James S. Fritz (Dec 12, 2019)

F900ElCapitan writes that "I ran through the prices this morning (Nov. 4, 2019) and am noticing a very substantial increase in sleeper fares. Most are up around 10%." Odd that my one-way Senior Viewliner Roomette fare on May 31, 2019 on the Crescent from BAL to TCL was $320.30. I checked the fare for identical service next year (May 29, 2020) and the same fare would be $587.60. This is a whopping 83% increase in the comparable fare. What gives? I know fares change day to day based on demand but this kind of fare increase. Really?


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## bratkinson (Dec 12, 2019)

As noted by Niemi24s at the bottom of his post on Saturday, the rail fare 'component' of sleeper fares has jumped 31%. Amtrak used to show sleeper accommodation fares separate from the rail fare component requiring perspective passengers to add the two together to get the total price. Now it's a single fare that includes both. 

For what it's worth, I did some fare comparisons for trips I did earlier this year and compared to the current prices for the same trip next year? WOW! It looks like I've been priced out of a number of future trips.

t would appear that Mr Anderson is in the process of finding out 'what the market will bear' in terms of pricing. Like transit operators and airlines know well, every x percent of fare increase loses y percentage of passengers. Would anyone pay $1000 for a coach seat on the Lakeshore Ltd NYP to CHI? Of course not. At $50, they'll sell out in minutes. At $100, they'll sell out pretty fast.

Between fares being too high and reduced amenities, including food, I think Anderson and crew will soon find out what prices fills beds and seats vs nearly empty cars.


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## F900ElCapitan (Dec 12, 2019)

I agree, bumping the “rail fare” component of a sleeper to low bucket plus 1 is quite an increase all across the board. Not to mention the elimination of some low bucket fares, and in the case of the Texas Eagle bedrooms they eliminated the bottom two buckets. I am so glad I did the rail trip that I did in September as these fares may have priced me out of doing it. 

And as mentioned, this is on top of reducing meal service on the eastern trains. Something that is most definitely coming to the western trains in a year or two.


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## James S. Fritz (Dec 12, 2019)

As I wrote above the Amtrak fare I would pay BAL-TCL would be $587.60 next May 29, 2020. Just checked the competitor: Southwest Airlines. I can go BWI-BHM for $161.00 on May 29, 2020. So much for competition.


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## niemi24s (Dec 12, 2019)

James S. Fritz said:


> As I wrote above the Amtrak fare I would pay BAL-TCL would be $587.60 next May 29, 2020. Just checked the competitor: Southwest Airlines. I can go BWI-BHM for $161.00 on May 29, 2020. So much for competition.


Your comparison is highly biased by quoting sleeper fares. The Saver Coach fare for BAL to TCL on 29 May is only $129!


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## James S. Fritz (Dec 13, 2019)

I understand what you say niemi. On the other hand, I hardly consider it fair to compare sitting on any mode of transportation for 20+ hours in a cramped seat to a 2 1/2 hour ride in a cramped seat.


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## Brian Battuello (Dec 13, 2019)

To be fair to Amtrak, coach seats are almost as large as a domestic business class seat. Still 10 times as long though!


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## niemi24s (Dec 13, 2019)

[QUOTE="James S. Fritz, post: 827183, member: 15423". . .I hardly consider it fair to compare sitting on any mode of transportation for 20+ hours in a cramped seat . . .[/QUOTE]
This comment leads me to believe you've never ridden Amtrak in Coach with its comparatively luxurious Coach seats and the ability to leave your seat and roam the train freely (except the sleepers). Not to mention you can actually see stuff outside the train windows - provided you don't spend all your waking hours poking at your PDA.


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## Michigan Mom (Dec 14, 2019)

Regretfully, I am effectively priced out of the Meteor to Florida, possibly other LD routes although tend not to pay attention to the fares as much for the others. Now I don't take NEARLY as scientific an examination as others do here; more of an informal monitoring in the weeks and months ahead of a trip. So I don't know the percentage of fare increases, I do know the fares have gone up over the past several years. The other factor is advance booking and changes in refundability. We simply can't book far enough in advance, I have been lucky to obtain buy-in on scheduling a vacation even to be able to book three months in advance, from my son and daughter who now juggle different activities and commitments. Usually 4-6 weeks ahead of time is the norm, and with that time window, it boils down to flying, or Amtrak coach for shorter trips.


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## jis (Dec 14, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> [QUOTE="James S. Fritz, post: 827183, member: 15423". . .I hardly consider it fair to compare sitting on any mode of transportation for 20+ hours in a cramped seat . . .


This comment leads me to believe you've never ridden Amtrak in Coach with its comparatively luxurious Coach seats and the ability to leave your seat and roam the train freely (except the sleepers). Not to mention you can actually see stuff outside the train windows - provided you don't spend all your waking hours poking at your PDA.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but 20 hours is still 20 hours. I tend to agree with James’ position on comparisons as I have stated before too, even if one argues about crampedness of the seat or not for a while. [emoji57]


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## Michigan Mom (Dec 16, 2019)

In support of the data provided here... Last year CHI-NYP total for 3 passengers, 2 roomettes was $798. If memory serves... well actually it may not. I can't remember the coach/roomette breakdown. Anyway this year the lowest I can find on Amsnag is $910 for three people. Amsnag gives a breakdown for one person, 90$ coach and $383 roomette, on the app the pricing shows $320 being the calculated room cost since (since $270 is the quoted coach fare) so $270 + (320x2) for $910. 
So yeah basically 10% or so increase from last year. Because the rooms are already filling up... clearly it's not detering new bookings.
If you're a single traveler with flexible dates, the new developments are probably not a deal breaker. For families with more specific dates needed, getting challenging plus the costs multiply. I'm holding out hope for the new multiple-passenger discount, have to look into. Not sure if it's automatically applied or if it was a limited time promotion.


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## F900ElCapitan (Dec 16, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> In support of the data provided here... Last year CHI-NYP total for 3 passengers, 2 roomettes was $798. If memory serves... well actually it may not. I can't remember the coach/roomette breakdown. Anyway this year the lowest I can find on Amsnag is $910 for three people. Amsnag gives a breakdown for one person, 90$ coach and $383 roomette, on the app the pricing shows $320 being the calculated room cost since (since $270 is the quoted coach fare) so $270 + (320x2) for $910.
> So yeah basically 10% or so increase from last year. Because the rooms are already filling up... clearly it's not detering new bookings.
> If you're a single traveler with flexible dates, the new developments are probably not a deal breaker. For families with more specific dates needed, getting challenging plus the costs multiply. I'm holding out hope for the new multiple-passenger discount, have to look into. Not sure if it's automatically applied or if it was a limited time promotion.



Yep, the price increase looks similar. I ran the trip on Amsnag to find the price and then looked at Amtrak to see their breakdown. I found the prices you are quoting but the break down looks a little different, which is consistent with the increase in the coach fare portion. For a roomette with one passenger, yes it does show $383 with a spit of $144 rail fare and $239 for the roomette which is consistent with Niemi24s chart for low bucket. Then for adding two people and another roomette the $910 holds and the breakdown is $144 X 3 = $432 for rail fare and $239 X 2 = $478 for the roomettes which totals $910. It’s the increase of the rail portion from low value to low value +1 that was the significant increase. Since the increase happened in November, I don’t know if anybody has watched any trains enough to definitively know the full impact. Of course Amtrak knows, but I’m sure they won’t say anytime soon.


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## niemi24s (Dec 16, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> ... Last year CHI-NYP total for 3 passengers, 2 roomettes was $798. If memory serves... well actually it may not. I can't remember the coach/roomette breakdown.


Good memory! Here's the breakdown based on fares from the Dec 2018 fare chart: 3 low bucket Coach fares were 3 X $110 = $330 plus 2 low bucket Roomettes were 2 X $234 = $468 for a total of $330 + $468 = $798.

So far, so good.



> Anyway this year the lowest I can find on Amsnag is $910 for three people. Amsnag gives a breakdown for one person, 90$ coach and $383 roomette, on the app the pricing shows $320 being the calculated room cost since (since $270 is the quoted coach fare) so $270 + (320x2) for $910.


While your $910 total is correct, the fares totaling it are off because the $90 Coach fare you used is the Saver fare and (provided there's no sale in progress) the Coach fare that goes with any sleeper is two buckets above the Saver fare. For the LSL or CARD that's currently $144 for each person (Coach fare with the > next to it on the chart in Post #52). Not sure what your ". . .shows $320 being the calculated room cost. . ." refers to but the current low bucket Roomette upcharge is $383 - $144 = $239 based on the data in Post #52 (in which the Coach fare with the > is included in the fares for all sleepers).

So all this makes the current breakdown for three adults in two low bucket Roomettes: 3 higher bucket Coach fares is 3 X $144 = $432 plus 2 low bucket Roomettes is 2 X ($383 - $144) = 2 X $239 = $478 for a total of $432 + $478 = (ta da) $910! 

The increases were thus 31% in Coach fares ($110 to $144), 2% in Roomette upcharges ($234 to $239) and 14% in total fare ($798 to $910).

FYI, the first several years of fare bucket charts showed just the upcharges for sleepers (no Coach fares included) because the original version of AmSnag reported them that way. When version 2.2 of AmSnag came out it showed 1 (or 2) adult Coach fares with any sleeper and I stubbornly deducted the low bucket Coach fare from the total sleeper fares so I could keep on as before. But those subtractions (as many as 185) got to be tiresome and a possible source of error . So starting with the 12 Nov 2019 version of the chart all sleeper buckets include one adult Coach fare, the one with the >.


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## Michigan Mom (Dec 17, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> Good memory! Here's the breakdown based on fares from the Dec 2018 fare chart: 3 low bucket Coach fares were 3 X $110 = $330 plus 2 low bucket Roomettes were 2 X $234 = $468 for a total of $330 + $468 = $798.
> 
> So far, so good.
> 
> ...



Your work is all the more impressive cause this is as confusing as all heck.
The 90$ single coach fare ($270 for three passengers) was taken from the Amtrak booking app on my phone. Plugging in any random low bucket date from Amsnag, the App gives you two options: Coach from $270, and Rooms from $910. (For three adults the app will default to two roomettes). So It doesn't give you any type of breakdown, just the total charge. I was evidently applying a faulty assumption to explain the total. Also I should clarify, this is only looking at the LSL trip, not the Cardinal or other trip combos. 

For planning purposes, it's about $110 more for the same trip over last year. The price increases don't mean we won't take ANY LD trains...it does mean taking fewer, and waiting until I have enough AGR points. 31K and change would be required in lieu of $910.


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## niemi24s (Dec 17, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> . . . this is as confusing as all heck. The 90$ single coach fare ($270 for three passengers) was taken from the Amtrak booking app on my phone.


There's nothing much about Amtrak fares that's simple. That $90 Saver Coach fare is usually only available two or more weeks prior to the travel date and is good only for a seat in Coach. You don't get the Saver fare (or the next one up, the $112 low bucket "Value" fare) when getting a sleeper of any type. 

The fare bucket structures for both direct trains between CHI and NYP are identical: 




Each next higher coach fare is increased by about 25% except for the top one which is increased by only about 2%. Each of the sleeper fares includes the $144 Coach fare with the >, so if you want to see what the Sleeper upcharges alone are, $144 must be subtracted from each of them. The average increases between sleeper upcharges are about $82 for Roomettes and $156 for Bedrooms.

But all this goes out the window if there's a sale on. This Yooper lives so far from the closest Amtrak station and takes the train so seldom that I just don't keep track of Amtrak sales.


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## Palmland (Dec 17, 2019)

Looking at the chart above there is still a sizable difference between the Star and Meteor for roomettes, especially at higher buckets. For the budget minded, It’s almost a bargain if going FL to northeast and don’t mind cafe food (or bring your own).


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## desertflyer (Dec 17, 2019)

I just snagged a roomette for 1 person from Glenwood Springs to San Francisco for next month (low season) for $380. That is reasonable compared to the east coast fares. Yet Denver to Glenwood Springs was almost $200 for a roomette. The pricing is a bit hard to figure out. People are often shocked when they find out how much I pay to take Amtrak.


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## niemi24s (Dec 17, 2019)

desertflyer said:


> I just snagged a roomette for 1 person from Glenwood Springs to San Francisco for next month (low season) for $380. That is reasonable compared to the east coast fares. Yet Denver to Glenwood Springs was almost $200 for a roomette. The pricing is a bit hard to figure out. People are often shocked when they find out how much I pay to take Amtrak.


Both prices you quote are low bucket and the disparity in fares is made clearer by comparing the distances for each:

• DEN to GSC is 185 miles for $187 or $1.01 per mile
• GSC to EMY is 1215 miles for $378 or $0.31 per mile.

Ridership may also have something to do with the disparity (travel nearly 7 times farther for only twice the money). In addition, some claim the shorter DEN to GSC route is the most scenic so perhaps "eye candy" comes with a premium price. Then there are economies of scale which give the longer route a cost per mile advantage.


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## neroden (Dec 18, 2019)

The fare difference between DEN-GSC and GSC-EMY is flat out demand. DEN-GSC is very popular, GSC-EMY is significantly weaker demand. If Amtrak could add extra cars just between Denver and Glenwood Springs, they probably would, but it's operationally impossible.


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## RSG (Dec 18, 2019)

desertflyer said:


> People are often shocked when they find out how much I pay to take Amtrak.


I encounter the same incredulity when I mention it to those I share the cost with. At the same point in time, there are many factors that make rail travel different, which I don't need to explain to anyone here. What I do say to those who invariably say something like "But I can fly so much cheaper!" is that they should enjoy doing so why it lasts, as the economics of the airline industry won't allow for the same type of fares forever, even with higher ancillary fees. It's already difficult to fly between San Francisco and Glenwood Springs (or vicinity), regardless of cost. In the future, it will be near impossible to do so commercially.


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## F900ElCapitan (Dec 29, 2019)

So to add on to the rail fare portion price increase, it appears the discounts for booking a bedroom at the 11 month fare release (roomettes are closer to the original policies) have largely disappeared. I played with AmSnag (mostly looking at the Chicago trains) this morning and found the SWC had the lowest offering at B2 (bucket 2), the Texas Eagle is at B3 (the lowest offered on this train at any time), the CZ is B4, and the rest are now offered at B5 (high bucket) until they decide to drop the price. It also appears the 5 month price evaluation has largely gone away (at least for bedrooms), the prices will still likely come down but the timing is different for each train.


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## bratkinson (Dec 29, 2019)

Back in November, I booked a roomette WAS -> CHI in February on the Capitol Ltd for $330. Almost 50% increase over the same trip in September! ($224) I keep checking Amsnag to see if the prices have come down. NOPE!

Interestingly, ALL the prices for roomettes on the CAP for February are STILL the same...$330 across the board. In looking at January, about 1/3 of the roomettes have higher prices. In my opinion, the new higher prices have accomplished two of Andersons' goals...make Amtrak more 'profitable', and at the same time drive away LD passengers because of the higher prices! Seeing that February roomette sales haven't budged tells me they are NOT being sold other than the small number at the lowest bucket fare. Yes, I know that February is the slowest travel times of the year. But there STILL should be something other than low-bucket across the board. The Cardinal is only selling SOME of the rooms at other than low-bucket, too. 

Given the markedly higher prices for LD trains, Amtrak will definitely be seeing significantly less of me and getting less of my money, too. In short, Anderson wins.


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## F900ElCapitan (Dec 29, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> Back in November, I booked a roomette WAS -> CHI in February on the Capitol Ltd for $330. Almost 50% increase over the same trip in September! ($224) I keep checking Amsnag to see if the prices have come down. NOPE!
> 
> Interestingly, ALL the prices for roomettes on the CAP for February are STILL the same...$330 across the board. In looking at January, about 1/3 of the roomettes have higher prices. In my opinion, the new higher prices have accomplished two of Andersons' goals...make Amtrak more 'profitable', and at the same time drive away LD passengers because of the higher prices! Seeing that February roomette sales haven't budged tells me they are NOT being sold other than the small number at the lowest bucket fare. Yes, I know that February is the slowest travel times of the year. But there STILL should be something other than low-bucket across the board. The Cardinal is only selling SOME of the rooms at other than low-bucket, too.
> 
> Given the markedly higher prices for LD trains, Amtrak will definitely be seeing significantly less of me and getting less of my money, too. In short, Anderson wins.



I’m not sure of all your travel details (number of people and discounts etc.), but according to Niemi’s chart $310 is the new low bucket rate for one adult. But, yes I agree with you that these higher rates are going to take a toll.

Personally I can get my wife to ride the rails with me, but for a two night western train we much prefer the restroom and larger beds in a bedroom. I also didn’t mind being able to plan 11 months in advance and be able to get a low bucket or B1 price. But at high bucket it’s a no go for us, and a lot of times 4 to 5 months out planning can be difficult due to having to request vacation. If I do plan ahead, I can drive, stay at very nice hotels, and eat wherever we want or even fly paid first class and still come out ahead.


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## niemi24s (Dec 29, 2019)

I've no idea how Bratkinson came up with his fares, but the current low bucket Roomette fare for one adult is $310 (not $330) and the previous one (for the first 9 or 10 months of 2019) was $275 (not $224). That actual $35 increase is about 13%.

Was some sort of a sale going on when you saw that $224 fare?


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## bratkinson (Dec 29, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> I've no idea how Bratkinson came up with his fares, but the current low bucket Roomette fare for one adult is $310 (not $330) and the previous one (for the first 9 or 10 months of 2019) was $275 (not $224). That actual $35 increase is about 13%.
> 
> Was some sort of a sale going on when you saw that $224 fare?



I came up with the $330 number based on the conjunctive fare I got from WNL-WAS then WAS-CHI - $359.80. Booked as a senior, I'm reasonably sure the senior rate gets used for both the NEC and the CAP. Unfortunately, until AGR points get posted, I can only guess what the individual costs are charged based on prior trips. And even then, the ticket fares quoted by AGR when posted are sometimes 'weird'. They've been 'weird' for a good year or so. 

As for the $224 fare, that's part of the cunjunctive fare AGR reported when looking at each individual segment. I wouldn't be surprised at all if once the February trip shows up in AGR, it reports something less than $300 for WAS->CHI.


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## F900ElCapitan (Dec 30, 2019)

bratkinson said:


> I came up with the $330 number based on the conjunctive fare I got from WNL-WAS then WAS-CHI - $359.80. Booked as a senior, I'm reasonably sure the senior rate gets used for both the NEC and the CAP. Unfortunately, until AGR points get posted, I can only guess what the individual costs are charged based on prior trips. And even then, the ticket fares quoted by AGR when posted are sometimes 'weird'. They've been 'weird' for a good year or so.
> 
> As for the $224 fare, that's part of the cunjunctive fare AGR reported when looking at each individual segment. I wouldn't be surprised at all if once the February trip shows up in AGR, it reports something less than $300 for WAS->CHI.



Cool and thanks!! If you're interested the WAS-CHI fare for one senior comes out to $296.70 at low bucket.


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## F900ElCapitan (Jan 6, 2020)

Well it looks like Amtrak may be finally realizing they jacked up the bedroom price on the Texas Eagle a little too much. As of this morning they have added back B1 (low bucket plus one). Currently it is only available up to the 5 month point, but at least it’s a start. 

Now I hope they will drop the 11 month pricing for all the LD trains down to a level worth buying that far out. Mid-bucket or higher is ridiculous.


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 8, 2020)

Just got an email from Amtrak for a BOGO sale (both Coaches AND Sleepers) which is making me sad. It's for travel before June 12th which is great, except it also has to be booked by this coming Sunday, January 12th. We might be able to coordinate a family trip in April or May, but I sure as heck won't know that in a few days. Amtrak sale pricing generally seems to benefit most, those who can plan way ahead of time. Although.. I recognize that "way ahead of time" can mean entirely different things to different people. For us, a spring trip booked in January would be WAY ahead 
I just always seem to hit the wrong end of sales. Recent trip booked just before a sale was announced, and the fare couldn't be applied retroactively. (I called). Either that happens, or it's a flash sale like the current one. Oh well, the Chicago trip was a nice one, so there's that.


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## bratkinson (Jan 8, 2020)

Amtraks' BOGO sale tells me what I already figured out...the winter slow season is even slower than usual in 2020. There's far too many lowest fare bucket roomettes available. It also reflects what I've seen too often in grocery stores...normally faster-selling items such as 2 liter Coke going on sale, then, shortly there after an across the board price raise (I suspect that's in the next month or so). Usually, it's raise the prices then have a sale...which is exactly what's happened on nearly all the Amtrak trains I ride.


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## niemi24s (Jan 8, 2020)

bratkinson said:


> Usually, it's raise the prices then have a sale...which is exactly what's happened on nearly all the Amtrak trains I ride.


I wonder which scheme would be the least off-putting to the average Amtrak customer:

• Raise fares first and leave them raised long enough to measure customer reaction then have a sale or
• Have a sale first and then raise fares to the new increased level at the end of the sale.
• [Some other scheme]


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## BLNT (Jan 9, 2020)

Michigan Mom said:


> Just got an email from Amtrak for a BOGO sale (both Coaches AND Sleepers) which is making me sad. It's for travel before June 12th which is great, except it also has to be booked by this coming Sunday, January 12th. We might be able to coordinate a family trip in April or May, but I sure as heck won't know that in a few days. Amtrak sale pricing generally seems to benefit most, those who can plan way ahead of time. Although.. I recognize that "way ahead of time" can mean entirely different things to different people. For us, a spring trip booked in January would be WAY ahead
> I just always seem to hit the wrong end of sales. Recent trip booked just before a sale was announced, and the fare couldn't be applied retroactively. (I called). Either that happens, or it's a flash sale like the current one. Oh well, the Chicago trip was a nice one, so there's that.



I was quite intrigued, and immediately went to the "fine print"... of freaking course, all trains except the Auto Train (the only one I have a "use" or time for presently)!


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 10, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> I wonder which scheme would be the least off-putting to the average Amtrak customer:
> 
> • Raise fares first and leave them raised long enough to measure customer reaction then have a sale or
> • Have a sale first and then raise fares to the new increased level at the end of the sale.
> • [Some other scheme]



You know what I'd love... discounted 21 day advance purchase for sleepers. It won't happen, though, since they can sell them much farther out.
Also at least you can still get the Saver discounted coach tickets up to 3 days ahead (on the Wolverine anyway) if enough seats are available.

Speaking of intriguing offers, another email I have to investigate later is an offer for bonus points with NARP membership. This might be a good time to get that 10% off back since they removed the AAA discount. AGR points is like icing on the cake.


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## daybeers (Jan 11, 2020)

Michigan Mom said:


> You know what I'd love... discounted 21 day advance purchase for sleepers. It won't happen, though, since they can sell them much farther out.
> Also at least you can still get the Saver discounted coach tickets up to 3 days ahead (on the Wolverine anyway) if enough seats are available.
> 
> Speaking of intriguing offers, another email I have to investigate later is an offer for bonus points with NARP membership. This might be a good time to get that 10% off back since they removed the AAA discount. AGR points is like icing on the cake.


Or they could just lower the fares


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## dlagrua (Jan 12, 2020)

How about a one way trip price EB (bedroom) of $2067 from CHI-GPK 8-9-20 to 8-23-20 ?? That is outrageous and the price extends all the way through the end of Sept. Was planning to buy but that price is out of the question. Anyone see it coming down to a more realistic level?


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## pennyk (Jan 12, 2020)

dlagrua said:


> How about a one way trip price EB (bedroom) of $2067 from CHI-GPK 8-9-20 to 8-23-20 ?? That is outrageous and the price extends all the way through the end of Sept. Was planning to buy but that price is out of the question. Anyone see it coming down to a more realistic level?


I recently made a reservation from Orlando to San Diego for next October. Last December I traveled from Orlando cross country and back (98, 29, 5, 14, 8, 30, 97). My 2019 cross country roundtrip fare was less than my 2020 one way to San Diego fare. I attribute it to increase in fares and the fact that my December trip was at a fairly slow travel time (even though I made those reservations only a couple of months in advance). Both trips I am/was traveling in bedrooms on western trains.


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## dlagrua (Jan 13, 2020)

pennyk said:


> I recently made a reservation from Orlando to San Diego for next October. Last December I traveled from Orlando cross country and back (98, 29, 5, 14, 8, 30, 97). My 2019 cross country roundtrip fare was less than my 2020 one way to San Diego fare. I attribute it to increase in fares and the fact that my December trip was at a fairly slow travel time (even though I made those reservations only a couple of months in advance). Both trips I am/was traveling in bedrooms on western trains.


Its strange but that $2067 one way fare CHI-GPK extends all the way on every date from early June right through the end of Sept. If we ad up the entire trip cost PHI-CHI-GPK and back its $5223.00. I am not exactly poor but that's above my affordability level. This must be part of Andersons plan to kill LD routes. At those fares now he can go to congress and say no one rides these trains anymore. We want to keep supporting the service but there is a limit.


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## Barb Stout (Jan 13, 2020)

pennyk said:


> I recently made a reservation from Orlando to San Diego for next October. Last December I traveled from Orlando cross country and back (98, 29, 5, 14, 8, 30, 97). My 2019 cross country roundtrip fare was less than my 2020 one way to San Diego fare. I attribute it to increase in fares and the fact that my December trip was at a fairly slow travel time (even though I made those reservations only a couple of months in advance). Both trips I am/was traveling in bedrooms on western trains.


What days in December did you travel?


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## Barb Stout (Jan 13, 2020)

dlagrua said:


> Its strange but that $2067 one way fare CHI-GPK extends all the way on every date from early June right through the end of Sept. If we ad up the entire trip cost PHI-CHI-GPK and back its $5223.00. I am not exactly poor but that's above my affordability level. This must be part of Andersons plan to kill LD routes. At those fares now he can go to congress and say no one rides these trains anymore. We want to keep supporting the service but there is a limit.


Did you look for fares with the Amsnag tool?


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## dlagrua (Jan 13, 2020)

Use Amsnag all the time but the EB seems fixed at high bucket for many months. Don't mind spending a few bucks but $5223 for a trip is just not affordable. Glacier Park pretty much closes up mid Sept so a Dec trip just won't do it. If this is the way Anderson chooses to steer the trip, I guess that we will do more driving or wait it out for now.


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 13, 2020)

Oh I am grateful for the LD train trips we had on the SW Chief and Empire Builder, not sure I'll ever be able to afford the Zephyr the way these prices are going! Other than using points. The Meteor and Star are not looking within reach this summer either, based on an informal sampling of dates. And the app indicates there are few rooms left, so they are likely going to sell out long before I can ever commit to travel dates. Unless something shows up on Amsnag that would work. 
Maybe, just maybe, this is actually a sign of health for the LD trains. If they are charging $2000 plus (one way) and selling all the inventory.... that means people are willing to pay that much. Like a cruise ship.


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## pennyk (Jan 13, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> What days in December did you travel?


I left Orlando on 12/4 and returned on 12/15


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## niemi24s (Jan 13, 2020)

Nothing particularly unusual about a round trip costing more than a one way trip considering that the ratio of high bucket to low bucket bedroom fares on the Western trains is about 2.1:1. The ratio is slightly less for the Eastern trains. Add in the fare increase of a few months ago and it looks like Penny's one-way trip this year at high bucket could be about $400 more than last years round trip at low bucket. 

Such is the nature of the bucket system.


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## Sauve850 (Jan 13, 2020)

dlagrua said:


> How about a one way trip price EB (bedroom) of $2067 from CHI-GPK 8-9-20 to 8-23-20 ?? That is outrageous and the price extends all the way through the end of Sept. Was planning to buy but that price is out of the question. Anyone see it coming down to a more realistic level?


Last year I rode the EB bedroom from Sea to Chi on points around end of August. Dont remember points but was very reasonable and outright fare was like $900 or close. I booked in Jan 2019 as I remember. 

This year I cant take the EB but did look at fares about two months or so ago. A bedroom at the end of August 2020 was less than $800.


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## niemi24s (Jan 13, 2020)

Sauve850 said:


> This year I cant take the EB but did look at fares about two months or so ago. A bedroom at the end of August 2020 was less than $800.


For most of 2019, a low bucket Bedroom on the EB was $764 ($184 Coach +$580 Sleeper). When the Nov/Dec 2019 fare increases kicked in that rose 9% to $836 ($245 Coach + $591 Sleeper).

The vast majority of the increase was the switch from low bucket Coach to the next higher bucket when booking any sleeper - a 33% increase in itself! The accommodation upcharge rose only 2%.


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## bratkinson (Jan 13, 2020)

Sleeper prices are getting ridiculous these days and have priced me out of a number of trips this year. However, I did manage to snag a low-bucket roomette fare for June 9 on the Cardinal last Friday! Thank you Amsnag! It looks there's been an across the board fare hike to $673 from mid June forward. However, I just checked, June 11 still has a low bucket roomette at $340.


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## Barb Stout (Jan 14, 2020)

dlagrua said:


> Use Amsnag all the time but the EB seems fixed at high bucket for many months. Don't mind spending a few bucks but $5223 for a trip is just not affordable. Glacier Park pretty much closes up mid Sept so a Dec trip just won't do it. If this is the way Anderson chooses to steer the trip, I guess that we will do more driving or wait it out for now.


Well, if you ski, maybe going to the resort in Essex next to Glacier might be something. But yeah, super wow on those prices.


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