# Ontario Northland service to return



## jiml (Apr 10, 2022)

It's been rumored for awhile, but is now official as of this afternoon with the Cochrane extension being "new" to the previous proposal:

Return of Northlander train service could include new connection to Cochrane, Ont. (msn.com)


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 11, 2022)

That's good news, although strange that it will take 3 years to restore a service that was already running only a few years ago.


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## fdaley (Apr 11, 2022)

Makes sense to go to Cochrane to allow connection to the Moosonee train. I think it has been a long time since there was a train into Timmins -- maybe since the 1990 VIA cuts?


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## jiml (Apr 11, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> That's good news, although strange that it will take 3 years to restore a service that was already running only a few years ago.


The delay is rolling stock, staffing and infrastructure. Only a few of the already heavily-modified former GO Hawker-Siddeley cars have been updated to current standards. Many were retired, sold or scrapped. The APU's (former F-B units) have not run in several years. ONR does not have surplus locomotives nor the staff to run them. The enroute stations not used by other services are in disrepair or have alternate uses. Then there's the people to do all this - a continent-wide problem. They need to hire people, replace stations and platforms, and acquire new rolling stock. The latter is underway with a view to using GO F59's, although many have already left the property and can be seen in California and Chicago, among other places. (These will remove the need for APU's of course.) Passenger cars are another problem entirely, although some used ones _may_ become available in the timeframe mentioned. If they have to buy new and choose Siemens they'll be at the back of line. For new, I'm told an Alstom product built at their Thunder Bay facility is an option.

Also, look for Metrolinx (GO's parent) to be heavily involved in this operation.


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## OBS (Apr 11, 2022)

Great explanation, thanks!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 14, 2022)

Bailed out on catching the last run due to no reservations for this train, and the lack of hotels for the overnight stay. 

Nice to see it’s trying to return.


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## Michigan Mom (Apr 16, 2022)

Any info on if there are other towns on the route the train would stop?


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## jiml (Apr 16, 2022)

Most of the stops were covered in the article posted initially. In addition to the terminus points, the stations already confirmed are Temagami, New Liskeard, Englehart and Matheson. A town on the route (South River) that did not previously have a stop is lobbying for one, according to a recent update. It's apparently a growing area - and must be as I'd never heard of it and had to look it up. Media speculation has ranged widely on the inclusion of several existing GO stops. I'm waiting to see something official.

Another subject for discussion is the route the train will take out of Toronto. The previous iterations of the Northlander had mostly used CN's Bala subdivision (known locally as GO's Richmond Hill line) to reach Northern Ontario, with the occasional use of the west Toronto trackage and backup move used also by the Canadian. Most have assumed this will be the case again, however Metrolinx would dearly love this train to be an extension of GO's Barrie line instead. Unfortunately much of the track north of Barrie has been pulled up or seriously downgraded (as discussed at length here a couple of years ago) before that line rejoins the Bala sub. This would involve some reconstruction and upgrades, but would serve a larger population base between Toronto and the junction at Washago, ON, and there's this big casino complex that used to have weekend GO service too. I think the route will be as expected - at least to start, but wouldn't rule out further development in the future. The Province of Ontario does have another rail "partner" not called CN that seems to be uncharacteristically passenger-friendly of late.


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## jiml (Apr 16, 2022)

For those looking for some extensive reading, follow the links in this article from Railway Age:








Ontario Advancing Northlander Service Restoration - Railway Age


The Ontario government on April 10 reported that it would invest $59.51 million (C$75 million) to reinstate Northlander passenger rail service between Toronto and Timmins.




www.railwayage.com





It's a good source for the information that has been released so far.


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## jiml (Apr 16, 2022)

This map shows the expected route, following GO's "Richmond Hill" line (long since extended past Richmond Hill) and CN's Bala subdivision. All stations, including both those approved and still to be confirmed, are shown.



Edited to correct the reference to the Gormley station, which has now been double-tracked.


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## TheMalahat (Dec 15, 2022)

Ontario Newsroom







news.ontario.ca





New equipment coming, and confirmed service to Toronto. Great day!


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## jiml (Dec 15, 2022)

The service should restart long before the new rolling stock arrives. The order has been pending for awhile and was not good news for Alstom in Thunder Bay - the more likely vendor. Unfortunately ONR is well down in the Siemens queue after VIA and Amtrak, so we won't see these for a few years.


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## NES28 (Dec 16, 2022)

Does anyone know the frequency of service? The reference to "4 to 7 days per week is ominous.


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## TheMalahat (Dec 16, 2022)

jiml said:


> The service should restart long before the new rolling stock arrives. The order has been pending for awhile and was not good news for Alstom in Thunder Bay - the more likely vendor. Unfortunately ONR is well down in the Siemens queue after VIA and Amtrak, so we won't see these for a few years.



I was a bit unclear, does this mean resumption of service is delayed until the new equipment arrives? Does ONR have enough equipment to start service ASAP if they were funded?


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## jiml (Dec 16, 2022)

NES28 said:


> Does anyone know the frequency of service? The reference to "4 to 7 days per week is ominous.


The previous Northlander ran 6 days a week (no Saturday service), however the reason was an extra northbound on Fridays, returning on Sundays to cover heavier "weekend up north" demand. The frequency mentioned in the article was actually news I hadn't heard before too. All earlier discussions were about daily service. Presumably there would be less service in winter, but not sure how they get to 4 days. 



TheMalahat said:


> I was a bit unclear, does this mean resumption of service is delayed until the new equipment arrives? Does ONR have enough equipment to start service ASAP if they were funded?


I'm not sure either and the report was a little vague. They had refurbished GO equipment to restart as soon as 2023 if funding and infrastructure improvements were complete. There was also talk of acquiring surplus equipment from elsewhere as a stop-gap until new equipment could be ordered. New equipment was widely expected to be sourced from Ontario (for obvious political/jobs reasons) which narrowed the vendors considerably. Hopefully ONR got a good deal from Siemens, but educated railfans know about the huge orders already in progress ahead of them. Going with VIA-compatible rolling stock does lead to speculation about everything from operation to maintenance. 

More coverage; no more real information:



Province buying 3 trains for return of Northlander service


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## jis (Dec 16, 2022)

jiml said:


> More coverage; no more real information:
> 
> 
> 
> Province buying 3 trains for return of Northlander service


Sounds like they will simply exercise a few options attached to the VIA order.


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## jrud (Dec 16, 2022)

I initially thought that to, but Siemens Mobility said it is completely independent of VIA Rail order.


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## jis (Dec 16, 2022)

jrud said:


> I initially thought that to, but Siemens Mobility said it is completely independent of VIA Rail order.


I guess that way they get to milk the new customer for all they are worth, keeping them from exploiting the high volume discount


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## jiml (Dec 16, 2022)

jis said:


> Sounds like they will simply exercise a few options attached to the VIA order.


FWIW, rail reporter RM Transit agrees with you and it makes sense. He also suggests VIA/Siemens will maintain the units in Toronto rather than at ONR's North Bay shops.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 16, 2022)

This might not be quite the right place to ask this question, but all these orders makes me wonder if another Siemens plant might be in the works should the orders continue?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 16, 2022)

Siemens USA has added capacity to the plant in California. I am sure there keep track of the backlog and the ability to land new business.



NES28 said:


> Does anyone know the frequency of service? The reference to "4 to 7 days per week is ominous.


It’s one train north and one south per day in the summer. The winter would be the 4 days of service. How they are going to do this is anyone guess.

But they buying three trainset, so two for service one inside the shop.


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## jrud (Dec 19, 2022)

The Siemens Mobility Facebook page includes a discussion of this order and is where I got my information on it being standalone from VIA. They also say the new Chargers will be the “SCV-42“ model like VIA.

I was unsuccessful in trying to post a link. Sorry.

BTW. I have read that even though it is not contractually associated with the VIA Rail order, it will be the same interior design. However, I haven’t personally compared the two, but it makes sense for only three trainsets.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 19, 2022)

So externally paint is different, number of railcars is smaller, but the inside are the same?

Call it what you want, but it’s a add on order. Siemens not a fool, a bit extra charge for the different paint set up/amount of paint required. Otherwise it’s a add on order to existing production.


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## jrud (Dec 19, 2022)

I was just noting that Siemens said they weren’t options on the VIA Rail order. Ontario Northern is a new customer. As has been suggested, buying essentially the same car design as VIA probably helped considerably with cost and schedule. These cost/schedule considerations are probably the answer to the questions on why there weren’t design changes for an overnight train.


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