# Two riders get feet caught between BART train, platform at Walnut Cr.



## DET63 (Nov 21, 2010)

> WALNUT CREEK -- BART experienced minor delays on the Pittsburg/Bay Point line Saturday evening after a passenger's foot became trapped between the train and the platform at the Walnut Creek BART station.
> 
> The man was getting off a Pittsburg/Bay Point train just before 5:30 p.m. when his foot somehow slipped down into the narrow gap between the train and the platform, BART spokesman Linton Johnson said.


More

Is this a common occurrence? I've never heard or read of it happening on the BART system before. For one thing, all of the platforms are on tangent track, so there is no need to bridge or otherwise deal with a large gap due to a curve, unlike stations on some other systems.


----------



## George Harris (Nov 21, 2010)

Just heard this on the local news here (in San Francisco). I think there is something fishy here, particularly for the person that took some 20 mintes to be freed. First the gap is 3 inches or less, and I mean 3.000 inches. This is required by the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), and everyone involved keeps a very watchful eye out for this violation. It is impossible to do without either turning your toe sharply down or turning your foot sideways. The purpose of the gap limit, which also requires the platform and car floor to be within 5/8 inch of each other vertically, is to provide a gap which can be traversed by a wheelchair. Again, a deliberate attempt to get yourself stuck is possible by making the small wheels drop in the gap.

The whole production about the BART policemen saving the day by notifying the operator is either PR by the BART police department or ignorance on the part of the BART "spokesperson" or the reporter. The BART operators are *REQUIRED* to see that everyone is clear of the doors before hitting the close door button. Everytime I have made it a point to look for it, the operator has his head out the window doing exactly that. Therefore, policeman or no policeman, the operator would not have made the door to shut on the guy's foot. Further, the train control system is interlocked to detect the door position so that the train cannot start unless the doors register as being closed.


----------



## DET63 (Dec 7, 2010)

George Harris said:


> Just heard this on the local news here (in San Francisco). I think there is something fishy here, particularly for the person that took some 20 mintes to be freed. First the gap is 3 inches or less, and I mean 3.000 inches. This is required by the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), and everyone involved keeps a very watchful eye out for this violation. It is impossible to do without either turning your toe sharply down or turning your foot sideways. The purpose of the gap limit, which also requires the platform and car floor to be within 5/8 inch of each other vertically, is to provide a gap which can be traversed by a wheelchair. Again, a deliberate attempt to get yourself stuck is possible by making the small wheels drop in the gap.
> 
> The whole production about the BART policemen saving the day by notifying the operator is either PR by the BART police department or ignorance on the part of the BART "spokesperson" or the reporter. The BART operators are *REQUIRED* to see that everyone is clear of the doors before hitting the close door button. Everytime I have made it a point to look for it, the operator has his head out the window doing exactly that. Therefore, policeman or no policeman, the operator would not have made the door to shut on the guy's foot. Further, the train control system is interlocked to detect the door position so that the train cannot start unless the doors register as being closed.


I believe this is correct. I have never seen or been on, to my knowledge, a BART train that was rolling with a door open.


----------



## Tracktwentynine (Dec 7, 2010)

I doubt this is very common. However, several years ago, WMATA (Washington Metro) drug a man to his death after his foot became lodged between the train and the platform. He was outside the train and was not trapped in the door (an open door would prevent the train from moving). I think this happened at Silver Spring, which has a very slight curve to the platform.

As a result, WMATA added strips below each doorway which reduced the gap between door and platform.

I can't seem to find info on the accident right now, but I'll have a look again tomorrow.


----------



## George Harris (Dec 8, 2010)

Tracktwentynine said:


> I doubt this is very common. However, several years ago, WMATA (Washington Metro) drug a man to his death after his foot became lodged between the train and the platform. He was outside the train and was not trapped in the door (an open door would prevent the train from moving). I think this happened at Silver Spring, which has a very slight curve to the platform.
> 
> As a result, WMATA added strips below each doorway which reduced the gap between door and platform.
> 
> I can't seem to find info on the accident right now, but I'll have a look again tomorrow.


there should be an NTSB report on this


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Dec 8, 2010)

Within the last year or two didn't seem one fall completely through the gap at woodside LIRR station?


----------



## AlanB (Dec 8, 2010)

Long Train Runnin said:


> Within the last year or two didn't seem one fall completely through the gap at woodside LIRR station?


It was more than 2 years ago now, probably like 3 or 4 IIRC. It was at least a year ago, and probably longer that I saw a track machine nudging the tracks closer to the platform.

In the case of the accident however it is also important to note that the girl was well past the point of being legally drunk. In fact that's probably what helped to kill her as she wouldn't listen to anyone to just stay where she was after she fell. So instead she crawled under the platform, it was the center island platform that serves trains from Jamaica to Penn and trains from Penn to Port Washington, and she was subsequently struck and killed by a Port Washington bound train.

There have been many other gap incidents on the LIRR, in fact it was the poster child for a while. But they have been working on closing many of the bigger gaps via one means or another. I'm not sure, other than perhaps a small child, if there were other incidents of someone falling completely through to the tracks though. Most I think were people getting a foot stuck, not to say that one still can't be badly injured by such an incident.

The LIRR even started a major campaign to educate people, but alas for a while many people thought that the ads weren't about the gaps between the trains and platforms, they thought that they were ads for the the retail chain the Gap.


----------



## tp49 (Dec 8, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > Within the last year or two didn't seem one fall completely through the gap at woodside LIRR station?
> ...


I also think the person who fell at Woodside was intoxicated if I remember the incident correctly.

Syosset is probably the worst offender station for gap issues with the curve on the Westbound side. Over the years there were several incidents of people getting stuck in the gap between the train and the platform. I haven't been there in awhile to see what measures the LIRR took to close the gap but maybe it's an excuse to drive up there later to see.


----------



## lthanlon (Dec 9, 2010)

DET63 said:


> I believe this is correct. I have never seen or been on, to my knowledge, a BART train that was rolling with a door open.


I ride the CTA here in Chicago. Once a Blue Line operator ran a train for between several stops with a set of doors in my car -- and possibly others on the train -- wide open. The entire train was packed with morning commuters and it's a miracle nobody fell off to their death. The operator_* did *_warn people in advance about the open doors. Does that count?

And yes, I did call and leave a complaint ... and never heard back from the CTA. Just like I never received an acknowledgment when I reported this deadly situation while it was still happening.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 10, 2010)

Three inches is enough to get your foot stuck if you hit it the right way and have small feet. The toes could slide in and you trip, sprain your ankle on the fall and your foot swells up, while still half in the gap-- viola, what one fit no longer can move.


----------



## George Harris (Dec 11, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Three inches is enough to get your foot stuck if you hit it the right way and have small feet. The toes could slide in and you trip, sprain your ankle on the fall and your foot swells up, while still half in the gap-- viola, what one fit no longer can move.


Swelling is not instantaneous. As said, to get your foot in the gap requires prior planning and careful implementation and determination, or else a truly improbably amount of combined stupidity and ineptitude.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 11, 2010)

George Harris said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Three inches is enough to get your foot stuck if you hit it the right way and have small feet. The toes could slide in and you trip, sprain your ankle on the fall and your foot swells up, while still half in the gap-- viola, what one fit no longer can move.
> ...


The latter two being something that, even you must admit, are never a shortage in this country. :lol:


----------



## DET63 (Dec 17, 2010)

lthanlon said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe this is correct. I have never seen or been on, to my knowledge, a BART train that was rolling with a door open.
> ...


I don't think it's possible to operate a BART train with the doors open, or to open the doors while the train is moving. I'm surprised other transit systems don't have similar safety features.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Dec 17, 2010)

George Harris said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Three inches is enough to get your foot stuck if you hit it the right way and have small feet. The toes could slide in and you trip, sprain your ankle on the fall and your foot swells up, while still half in the gap-- viola, what one fit no longer can move.
> ...


Iunno about in Cali, George, but I can think of many places where the gaps vastly exceed what you set out as the limit. What these stations tend to have is a "bridge plate" to cover the distance between track and train for use by wheelchair bound passengers. For instance, at Metropark, the curve and superelevation can make an Arrow III sit with its doors 4 to 5 inches from the platform horizontally and perhaps 1 to 2 inches vertical displacement. The careless could easily find themselves with a trapped foot- and by careless, I'm mostly referring to the hockey crowd...


----------



## George Harris (Dec 17, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Know whereof you speak. Until we develop bendable cars, a curved platform will require more offset than one adjacent to a straight line. Been there, done that. Also, in times past, before there was such athing as ADA, the stardard was set by the individual railroads or transit companies, and many times larger gaps were used. Six inches seems to have been a fairly common gap requirement.

Level boarding with narrow gap was decided to be a good idea at some point, and BART was built after that point. In addition, there is now a requirement that gaps be three inches or less and the vertical offset be 5/8 inches or less, and BART has to comply with that requirement. There is a rather strong "or else" if they don't.

Here is the specific part of the CFR: 49 CFR 38.113.d



> (d) Coordination with boarding platforms -
> (1) Requirements. Cars which provide level-boarding in stations with high platforms shall be coordinated with the boarding platform or mini-high platform design such that the horizontal gap between a car at rest and the platform shall be no greater than 3 inches and the height of the car floor shall be within plus or minus5/8inch of the platform height. Vertical alignment may be accomplished by car air suspension, platform lifts or other devices, or any combination.
> 
> (2) Exception. New cars operating in existing stations may have a floor height within plus or minus 11/2inches of the platform height.
> ...


----------



## DET63 (Dec 17, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


AFAIK, BART has no curved platforms.

No curved cars, either.


----------



## Priscilla Garces (Dec 24, 2010)

i was coming home from christmas shopping and as i was about to board the newark train, i loose my balance, slip and get half my body caught between the train and platform and it was about to leave. If i wasn't holding mom's arm, that would be the last christmas celebration with my family, and instead a funeral would have taken place.. The gap wasn't that wide, but i could have easily fallen through and got killed by the train. After the incident i was left with bruises on my arms, legs and ribs from the person who was about to board last literally pulling me out of the gap with full force That was the scariest day of my whole life. Oh I'm a blind person who depends on trains to go places, and this is happening? This is not right according to the standards set in regards to the limits posed on the width of the gaps. I think that the requirements should be revised by stating that gaps should be 1 to 2 inches wide so that these types of fatal incidents stop happening, and that all stations should be required to set up those platforms that go over the gaps that is normally used by people in wheelchairs not just as an accommodation, but as a general safety standard. A small person like myself could have easily gotten killed by falling through like a quarter inside a piggy bank with no escape. Well that's the curse for being so thin. well i'm only 90-94 pounds and barely 5 ft so there.


----------



## George Harris (Dec 28, 2010)

Priscilla Garces said:


> i was coming home from christmas shopping and as i was about to board the newark train, i loose my balance, slip and get half my body caught between the train and platform and it was about to leave.


Newark,where? Newark NJ?

3 inches is pretty well the practical limit to as close as you can be.

I would suspect that the gap in question is more than 3 inches, possibly a lot more. Also, platform edges are supposed to have tactile warning strips 18 inches wide to provide a means of determining when you are approaching the platform edge.

There are platform gaps in older stations that can be as large as 6 inches, sometimes more. If the platform is curved, the gap will of necessity be larger for much of the disance along the platform. Thing of what you get when you place a straight line next to a curved line, both inside and outside the arc of the curve. If the straight line is inside the curve, the gap will be minimum at the ends and larger at all points in between. If the straight line is outside the curve, the closest gap is achieved by placing the close point at the middle of the straight line. The largest gap will then be at the ends of the straight line.


----------



## DET63 (Dec 28, 2010)

George, most likely "Priscilla's" story is a work of fiction.

There is no direct BART service to Newark, CA, though I would assume that you could take a bus from Fremont or Union City BART station to get there.

A 3-inch gap between the train and the platform is almost the minimum practical in order to ensure that passing trains (or even those starting or stopping) don't scrape against the platform, resulting in increased maintenance costs.


----------



## tp49 (Dec 28, 2010)

DET63 said:


> George, most likely "Priscilla's" story is a work of fiction.
> 
> There is no direct BART service to Newark, CA, though I would assume that you could take a bus from Fremont or Union City BART station to get there.
> 
> A 3-inch gap between the train and the platform is almost the minimum practical in order to ensure that passing trains (or even those starting or stopping) don't scrape against the platform, resulting in increased maintenance costs.


That's because it's probably Newark, NJ on either PATH or NJT...


----------



## Guest (Dec 30, 2010)

tp49 said:


> Syosset is probably the worst offender station for gap issues with the curve on the Westbound side. Over the years there were several incidents of people getting stuck in the gap between the train and the platform. I haven't been there in awhile to see what measures the LIRR took to close the gap but maybe it's an excuse to drive up there later to see.


I heard that it's around a foot in some places and can be a inch or 2 larger in the worst spots.


----------



## DET63 (Dec 30, 2010)

> That's because it's probably Newark, NJ on either PATH or NJT...


There is, however, a Newark, CA, and since this thread was (at least originally) about BART . . .

For stations on commuter lines, where conductors or car attendants may be available to assist passengers, gap issues may not be that important. I do not know what NJT, PATH or other transit agencies policies and practices are regarding safety issues for passengers boarding trains where there may be more than a 3" gap between the platform and the car, especially where all or part of the platform may be on a curve.


----------

