# Amtrak Service Reductions



## Palmetto

It's been decided by Amtrak that LD trains will operate only 3X per week, effective October 1.

There are, however, two trains that will operate 4X per week: the Silver Metoer and the Auto Train. That gives stations between Petersburg VA and Miami daily service.

Increases in service will be implemented in the future as demand for riding returns.


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## John Bobinyec

"To All Amtrak Employees,

We remain committed to operating a national network that serves our customers across America. However, we need to be smart about how we deliver our service in this market environment. Congress is not going to support us indefinitely to run mostly empty trains. We need to demonstrate that we are using our resources efficiently and responsibly.

Amtrak has made the decision to operate with reduced capacity through FY21. We are planning 32% fewer frequencies on the Northeast Corridor, 24% fewer for our state-supported service and plan to reduce most long-distance trains to three days per week, beginning October 1, 2020.

This is an appropriate response, given the current and near-term market conditions. During the COVID-19 pandemic, our ridership has been down by as much as 95% year-over-year. It’s climbing back slowly – and it is going to take a long time to return to normal. The demand for our Long Distance service is down by 70%, even as some U.S. states begin to reopen. We expect our systemwide ridership in Fiscal Year 2021 to be only 50% of what it was in 2019. 

Low ridership on long-distance trains has significantly increased our operating losses, which already exceeded $500 million annually on these services before the pandemic. We expect these long-distance frequency reductions will save as much as $150 million in FY21 vs. the losses that would have been incurred with daily service. These savings are part of our pledge to Congress to reduce costs by $500 million.

Our goal is to restore daily service on these routes as demand warrants, potentially by the summer of 2021.

We recognize these changes will impact our employees who support the Long Distance Service Line. While we have a broad plan on our FY21 service frequency, we still have work to do to determine how that will impact the employees who support this work. We are sensitive to the uncertainty that this announcement brings to our Long Distance team. We will work quickly to determine what staffing reductions or furloughs will occur, and we will communicate these changes to you as soon as possible. 

A few additional points:

The Auto Train is an exception to Amtrak’s long-distance reduction plan and will continue its daily operation. The Sunset Limited and the Cardinal are currently tri-weekly and will remain tri-weekly. We expect to run the Silver Meteor four times a week so the stations that are common between it and the Silver Star have daily service.
Amtrak remains concerned about the potential for a second wave of the pandemic in the fall, which could further impact demand across the system.
Amtrak is developing specific and measurable metrics to guide our restoration of frequencies and service, and we will share those with you, Congressional staff and other stakeholders. 
To ensure all stakeholders understand changes to our service, we will continue to communicate with our union leadership, our state partners, the federal government, the Rail Passengers Association, host railroads, our customers and you. 

We appreciate your continued support as we work together to manage Amtrak through this difficult period. 


Roger Harris
EVP, Chief Marketing and Revenue Officer"


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## lordsigma

Palmetto said:


> There are, however, two trains that will operate 4X per week: the Silver Metoer and the Auto Train.


Auto Train remaining daily. Meteor 4X per week with Star 3X per week ( running on days Meteor isn't running.) If they run the Palmetto 3X per week on the days the Star is running that would mean daily service to additional stations (but Palmetto isn't directly referenced.)


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## lordsigma

Another stimulus bill is being talked about for July time frame. I guess this would be an opportunity to nip this in the bud if RPA can successfully lobby to get language into a bill blocking this direction. We will have to see what the reaction is from congressional members along routes being cut.


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## jadebenn

What an asinine idea. The definition of penny-wise, pound foolish. The savings will be marginal, but quality of service will be _severely_ reduced.

I hope the Congresscritters block this.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

lordsigma said:


> Auto Train remaining daily. Meteor 4X per week with Star 3X per week ( running on days Meteor isn't running.) If they run the Palmetto 3X per week on the days the Star is running that would mean daily service to additional stations (but Palmetto isn't directly referenced.)



If they want to use that logic they should also run the Lake Shore Limited 4X a week so Chicago-Cleveland also has daily service or at least stagger them so they have service on six different days of the week and passengers who want to go from CHI-NYP or CHI-WAS can always transfer (it sucks but at least they can still go).


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## jiml

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If they want to use that logic they should also run the Lake Shore Limited 4X a week so Chicago-Cleveland also has daily service or at least stagger them so they have service on six different days of the week and passengers who want to go from CHI-NYP or CHI-WAS can always transfer (it sucks but at least they can still go).


Makes perfect sense. One of the Capitol or the Lakeshore needs to be 4x to fill the gap.


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## AmtrakFlyer

Gardner is playing a key role in this situation. Unfortunately it plays right into what he has wanted to do the last 3 years. RPA and us can’t drop the ball this time. My question is will conservative members of Congress continue to see Amtrak management for the fraud they are and have been in the recent past?

The solution in my opinion would be continue to run the trains as they do now.

Reduced consist size not frequencies. Infrastructure and fixed costs aren’t going away. Labor is the big issue. As it is now some LD trains are operating with only 4 OBS employees not counting operating crew. 1 coach attendant for 2 coaches, 1 lounge attendant, LSA for boxed meals and a sleeper car attendant or two. Take it a step farther go to the unions and ask for a 10 percent pay cut to save jobs that will also go along way with some congressional members as well. So many ways to tackle this beast but as always management goes after the route that drives away ridership.

The other thing that’s wrong with this is the time frame. Entire FY2021? Ridership is already coming back, consists sizes are being increased the past 2 weeks.
If this actually goes through I hope they at least run daily service for 2 weeks over the Christmas/winter holidays but that would have to be decided now or very soon so people can book it.

As of last night all trains are still daily for a year out on the website.


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## MikeM

Well, the Sunset has been such a stunning success, no doubt management is so happy to emulate it nationally. (insert sarcastic nod here...)


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## saxman

There also needs to be ironclad agreements between Amtrak and it's host railroads to allow Amtrak to run daily service once they go to less. I just fear another Sunset Limited/UP debacle. Then again, when Amtrak tried this in the 90's and then went back to daily, I don't remember hearing too much trouble from the freight railroads then. 

This will be very bad for ridership and revenue as it will probably just cost more in lost productivity. Cars will sit for days, not bringing in revenue. Scheduling T&E crews will be less efficient. 

What about connections? Lots of connections will be broken too. Will they have all the LD trains arrive in the Chicago the same days? What if there's a late train and now people have to wait 2-3 days for the next train? The Texas Eagle takes 3 days to run from LAX to CHI, while the other western trains take 2 days, so there goes someones connection in CHI anyways, not to mention LAX and PDX connections. Then next year, Amtrak will use the excuse that it doesn't have enough ridership to add back the frequencies or that it costs to much. I hope I'm wrong.


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## jadebenn

saxman said:


> What about connections? Lots of connections will be broken too. Will they have all the LD trains arrive in the Chicago the same days? What if there's a late train and now people have to wait 2-3 days for the next train? The Texas Eagle takes 3 days to run from LAX to CHI, while the other western trains take 2 days, so there goes someones connection in CHI anyways, not to mention LAX and PDX connections. Then next year, Amtrak will use the excuse that it doesn't have enough ridership to add back the frequencies or that it costs to much. I hope I'm wrong.


This is what I fear. Ridership will tank and never recover, and that'll be used to try and justify continuing the cutbacks.


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## the_traveler

Between 3X a week trains, paying $x,xxx for a boxed meal (or 5) and taking days instead of hours, isn’t it surprising that many are choosing to fly instead of taking Amtrak?


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## RebelRider

Supposedly, though not reflected in Arrow yet, the Star and Meteor cut-backs will be effective July 6. So the second busiest (non-Auto Train) station in Florida, Tampa, will have no train service four days a week. Tampa is also the biggest stop on the Star, period. 

Raleigh is number four on the route, now going without service to/from Florida four days a week. Three of the top 10 destinations from Raleigh, by revenue, are in Florida.


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## mitako

I'm assuming that the switch to the microwaved TV dinners is also extended, but see no mention of that in the announcement. I generally do two big train trips each year, which include stays in two to four cities, and usually involve more than one train route. Reduced service would make it really hard to plan my trips, and I'm not eager to pay the exorbitant rates (we always book a roomette) to eat from a tiny selection of TV dinners for several days on the train. I've already written to my congresspeople..... LOL, received a response from Kamala Harris's office thanking me for my concern over California response to the pandemic, clearly my email was NOT actually read by anyone there.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

RebelRider said:


> Supposedly, though not reflected in Arrow yet, the Star and Meteor cut-backs will be effective July 6. So the second busiest (non-Auto Train) station in Florida, Tampa, will have no train service four days a week. Tampa is also the biggest stop on the Star, period.
> 
> Raleigh is number four on the route, now going without service to/from Florida four days a week. Three of the top 10 destinations from Raleigh, by revenue, are in Florida.


If Florida service has to be reduced to once-daily, I would propose running the SS every day on a modified schedule. If it was a few hours earlier northbound and later southbound it could have much easier connections at Washington and New York while improving the schedule for Savannah and Jacksonville. The stations on the A line north of Savannah could continue to be served by the Palmetto.


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## John Bobinyec

RebelRider said:


> Supposedly, though not reflected in Arrow yet, the Star and Meteor cut-backs will be effective July 6.


Where did that July 6 date come from? The letter to employees mentions October 1.

jb


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## lordsigma

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> If Florida service has to be reduced to once-daily, I would propose running the SS every day on a modified schedule. If it was a few hours earlier northbound and later southbound it could have much easier connections at Washington and New York while improving the schedule for Savannah and Jacksonville. The stations on the A line north of Savannah could continue to be served by the Palmetto.


Probably not enough of a cut for them. If it ends up being Meteor 4X days and Star/Palmetto the other 3 days that would presumably cut more costs than running both the Star and Palmetto daily. On the Meteor days there would be only one train running instead of 3.


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## railiner

If this goes thru, I hope at least that the Meteor will add a stop at my station, Okeechobee. Currently only the Star stops here, the Meteor bypasses it. 
I know...at least we have some service...but adding a stop will have a tiny impact on the schedule...


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## Bob Dylan

mitako said:


> I'm assuming that the switch to the microwaved TV dinners is also extended, but see no mention of that in the announcement. I generally do two big train trips each year, which include stays in two to four cities, and usually involve more than one train route. Reduced service would make it really hard to plan my trips, and I'm not eager to pay the exorbitant rates (we always book a roomette) to eat from a tiny selection of TV dinners for several days on the train. I've already written to my congresspeople..... LOL, received a response from Kamala Harris's office thanking me for my concern over California response to the pandemic, clearly my email was NOT actually read by anyone there.


Typical Politician! I gave up trying to contact my 2 Senators since I'm not on their "Supporter List", so I would always receive Form Letters ( look it up Kiddies), now its Boiler Plate emails.

My Congress Critter is just as worthless, as a self avowed " Constitutionsl Conservative",he's against Everything the Congress passes!


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## Geordie405

I think it will be interesting to see how ridership changes based on a reduced service frequency. I don't see it increasing, that's for sure. While people who take the train are perhaps less time-sensitive than those who fly they still probably don't have the sort of flexibility in their schedule that aligns nicely with a thrice weekly service. My train travel tends to be a vacation in itself so I am less fussed about whether I travel on a Saturday or a Tuesday for example but I can well imagine that for others it will become a bigger issue, leading them to abandon Amtrak and consider bus / car / plane as an alternative.

I have a trip on the CZ booked for September which is perhaps good timing. I do hope that the normal dining car service has been restored by then as I definitely don't fancy more TV dinner style meals.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

lordsigma said:


> Probably not enough of a cut for them. If it ends up being Meteor 4X days and Star/Palmetto the other 3 days that would presumably cut more costs than running both the Star and Palmetto daily. On the Meteor days there would be only one train running instead of 3.


They could also reroute the SM to stop in Tampa. 

If they really want to minimize the number of trains, another option would be to operate the daily SS via the A-line and have it backtrack from Selma to Raleigh. It would probably take even less time than using the S-line as it currently does and would allow for daily service on the entire route. Cary-Savannah would lose service but the only significant city on that segment is Columbia.

If Amtrak is going to make such massive cuts they should at least get creative to minimize the impact as much as possible. While longer running times would obviously not be desirable, I would prioritize daily service and retaining service to as many cities as possible.



railiner said:


> If this goes thru, I hope at least that the Meteor will add a stop at my station, Okeechobee. Currently only the Star stops here, the Meteor bypasses it.
> I know...at least we have some service...but adding a stop will have a tiny impact on the schedule...


I never really understood why Amtrak has stations such as that with only one round-trip a day on a segment with multiple frequencies. Other examples are Jesup and Bryan. There are also busy stations which are bypassed by one or more LDs, reducing direct destinations, such as Wilson and Fredericksburg. As I mentioned above, I don't think creativity with the schedules should be to much to ask if the cuts come to pass, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak tries to keep the schedules identical to now with simply fewer days of service.


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## TinCan782

mitako said:


> I'm assuming that the switch to the microwaved TV dinners is also extended, but see no mention of that in the announcement. I generally do two big train trips each year, which include stays in two to four cities, and usually involve more than one train route. Reduced service would make it really hard to plan my trips, and I'm not eager to pay the exorbitant rates (we always book a roomette) to eat from a tiny selection of TV dinners for several days on the train. I've already written to my congresspeople..... LOL, received a response from Kamala Harris's office thanking me for my concern over California response to the pandemic, clearly my email was NOT actually read by anyone there.


Same response I got from Harris!


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## MikefromCrete

This seems to be a very odd move. Why did Amtrak operate all the LD trains during the height of the Covid 19 crisis, then decide to reduce service as the nation moves back to a semi-normal status? Write to your congressmen and senators, people, and put a stop to this nonsense.


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## LookingGlassTie

MikefromCrete said:


> This seems to be a very odd move. Why did Amtrak operate all the LD trains during the height of the Covid 19 crisis, then decide to reduce service as the nation moves back to a semi-normal status? Write to your congressmen and senators, people, and put a stop to this nonsense.



I'm not really sure; it seems to be an "after-effect" move to me.

Kinda like a scenario in which your house withstands a hurricane but once the storm passes you have to modify your personal lifestyle (and your community may have reduced services) during the cleanup and recuperation/restoration process.


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## AmtrakFlyer

The short answer is Amtrak management does not and has not wanted to operate these essential trains for over 3 years now. Without trying to be political this is all too common with anything government run in our country now. The people put in charge are either incompetent or put in charge to destroy the company from within. Think Betsy Devos Education, Bill Barr DOJ, the leaders of the CPFB, EPA, etc the list goes on.

I think the network will survive with the bi partisan support but it will never thrive under this “leadership” group.


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## jebr

This seems like a very poor move in terms of trying to save money. Sure, you save on some labor expenses and fuel, but you don't remove much of your capital expenses, building expenses, etc., and the only major savings on equipment is if ridership drops further so you don't need as many cars to operate. You can still shorten a consist somewhat as demand requires, and 7x/week of a shorter consist may result in similar mileage as 3x/week full consist.

It seems far smarter, at least for a short-term solution, to significantly scale back on-board services and run a bare-bones but daily operation. Remove most services from the sleeper cars and treat it closer to "coach-with-a-bed" in terms of amenities given, remove the dining car temporarily, and have food service handled by the cafe car. It may not be the service we're used to, but it'd still provide essential transportation and leave a better structure in place to build from.


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## me_little_me

Amtrak should try my scheme for next year's service:

Trains westbound to Chicago run once per week and arrive the day after the westbounds from Chicago leave. They also run once per week. Chicago Convention & Visitors Bureau subsidizes this service with an under-the-counter payoff to Amtrak. Because Chicago politicians are used to that kind of payoff, it is easier to manage. Similarly, eastbound trains work the same way, doubling Amtrak's Chicago income.

Southbound trains including the Palmetto, Meteor and Star run daily. No northbound service. Instead, each night, an Amtrak train runs non-stop without passengers from Miami to Savannah pulling all the Meteor and Star engines and cars back to NY. At Savannah, the Palmetto engines and cars are added. Thus Amtrak's train becomes so long that it can't be put on a siding by NS and thus becomes the only on-time LD train. Amtrak and NS jointly announce that Amtrak's on-time performance has dramatically improved and they are now kissing cousins.

The Empire Builder uses overnight bus service between Fargo, ND and Spokane to avoid having all those passengers that used to slow the train down for stops in Glacier Park. While not eliminating delays, the number and length of them is significantly reduced - another accolade for Amtrak management.

The Southwest Chief is re-routed via the California Zephyr route so that each train runs only 1 1/2 times a week (alternating weeks) but Denver to Albuquerque bus service is provided on the days the Chief runs. 

Because of the reduced service, Amtrak's web site only operates three times a week (at reduced hours). Similarly, phone reservations are handled strictly by Julie with no human assistance.

The new, future, bedding is only used once per alternate Thursday except on weeks with a National Holiday during that week to reduce the need to purchase new bedding yet to allow Amtrak to announce that the "Fresh Choices Linens" which are preferred by the younger generation, are now a reality.

Amtrak will offer new, COMPLIMENTARY, snacks and soft drinks to all coach passengers in lieu of having a cafe car. Each passenger must arrive at a staffed station 30 minutes prior to boarding to insure getting their can of soda and snack. Those boarding at non-staffed stations will receive a $2 voucher for future Amtrak travel in lieu of a snack and soft drink.

Amtrak will provide new, enhanced dining and sanitary bedding service to sleeper passengers. Sleeper passengers at staffed stations will be provided with all meals scheduled for their journey and their pre-packaged bedding prior to boarding. SCA positions will be eliminated but all LD trains will have a diner-lounge or lounge car where sleeping car passengers can enjoy their meals and learn how to make up their own rooms and clean their toilets in complimentary Amtrak on-board classes. The LSA will conduct such classes. A small refundable fee will be charged for rental of the bedding to insure its return.

To improve ontime performance, Amtrak trains will no longer board/deboard sleeper passengers at other than staffed stations to reduce dwell time and the need to make two stops at some stations with short platforms. To insure customer satisfaction, Amtrak guarantees that even if the number of staffed stations decreases in the future, there will always be at least two staffed stations on every train route.


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## Metra Electric Rider

me_little_me said:


> Trains westbound to Chicago run once per week and arrive the day after the westbounds from Chicago leave. They also run once per week. Chicago Convention & Visitors Bureau subsidizes this service with an under-the-counter payoff to Amtrak. Because Chicago politicians are used to that kind of payoff, it is easier to manage. Similarly, eastbound trains work the same way, doubling Amtrak's Chicago income.



Why would we do that? Pretty much everything gathering-wise has been cancelled until next year. And we have no money - the lost tax revenue from Covid and the looting have done a huge number on Chicago's finances (for those of you who may not be aware, somewhere around 1/3 of business on the south side are boarded up - not sure about other parts of the City).


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## gwolfdog

me_little_me said:


> Amtrak should try my scheme for next year's service:
> 
> Trains westbound to Chicago run once per week and arrive the day after the westbounds from Chicago leave. They also run once per week. Chicago Convention & Visitors Bureau subsidizes this service with an under-the-counter payoff to Amtrak. Because Chicago politicians are used to that kind of payoff, it is easier to manage. Similarly, eastbound trains work the same way, doubling Amtrak's Chicago income.
> 
> Southbound trains including the Palmetto, Meteor and Star run daily. No northbound service. Instead, each night, an Amtrak train runs non-stop without passengers from Miami to Savannah pulling all the Meteor and Star engines and cars back to NY. At Savannah, the Palmetto engines and cars are added. Thus Amtrak's train becomes so long that it can't be put on a siding by NS and thus becomes the only on-time LD train. Amtrak and NS jointly announce that Amtrak's on-time performance has dramatically improved and they are now kissing cousins.
> 
> The Empire Builder uses overnight bus service between Fargo, ND and Spokane to avoid having all those passengers that used to slow the train down for stops in Glacier Park. While not eliminating delays, the number and length of them is significantly reduced - another accolade for Amtrak management.
> 
> The Southwest Chief is re-routed via the California Zephyr route so that each train runs only 1 1/2 times a week (alternating weeks) but Denver to Albuquerque bus service is provided on the days the Chief runs.
> 
> Because of the reduced service, Amtrak's web site only operates three times a week (at reduced hours). Similarly, phone reservations are handled strictly by Julie with no human assistance.
> 
> The new, future, bedding is only used once per alternate Thursday except on weeks with a National Holiday during that week to reduce the need to purchase new bedding yet to allow Amtrak to announce that the "Fresh Choices Linens" which are preferred by the younger generation, are now a reality.
> 
> Amtrak will offer new, COMPLIMENTARY, snacks and soft drinks to all coach passengers in lieu of having a cafe car. Each passenger must arrive at a staffed station 30 minutes prior to boarding to insure getting their can of soda and snack. Those boarding at non-staffed stations will receive a $2 voucher for future Amtrak travel in lieu of a snack and soft drink.
> 
> Amtrak will provide new, enhanced dining and sanitary bedding service to sleeper passengers. Sleeper passengers at staffed stations will be provided with all meals scheduled for their journey and their pre-packaged bedding prior to boarding. SCA positions will be eliminated but all LD trains will have a diner-lounge or lounge car where sleeping car passengers can enjoy their meals and learn how to make up their own rooms and clean their toilets in complimentary Amtrak on-board classes. The LSA will conduct such classes. A small refundable fee will be charged for rental of the bedding to insure its return.
> 
> To improve ontime performance, Amtrak trains will no longer board/deboard sleeper passengers at other than staffed stations to reduce dwell time and the need to make two stops at some stations with short platforms. To insure customer satisfaction, Amtrak guarantees that even if the number of staffed stations decreases in the future, there will always be at least two staffed stations on every train route.


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## gwolfdog

Can I write your name in for President (USA)?


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## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> I gave up trying to contact my 2 Senstors since I'm not on their "Supporter List", so I would always receive Form Letters ( look if up Kiddies), now its Boiler Plate emails.


If I feel like I'm not being heard I simply choose to have a little fun with it. Sometimes I'm snarky, other times I'm sarcastic, and sometimes I talk like a genuine supporter but with a feigned confusion that reverses the usual talking points into comical counterarguments. If the Washington line is busy I call a regional office. If they're busy I leave a message. Sometimes I draw attention to their hypocrisy on local news sites or send an op-ed on an important issue. I also donate to the competition so that each year they get a little stronger and a little closer to challenging the status quo. Never give up on telling the people in charge what you think of their performance. If that means having some fun while exposing their selfishness or sending them a cartoon that mocks their petty excuses then so be it. The point isn't always about changing someone's mind. Sometimes it's as simple as enjoying the access others fought and died to provide us, as well as reminding ourselves and each other that political activism is an important part of a healthy and productive lifestyle. This can be a difficult concept to digest but an important lesson for younger generations to learn now while it can still do them some good.


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## the_traveler

If someone was going from say Charleston, WV to Salem, OR on 3X trains, they look at the schedule.

“I can go by Amtrak, but I would have to travel 5 days, including overnights in Chicago and either Portland or Sacramento, or I could fly for the same fare or less with 1 short connection and be there in 9 hours. Which should I chose?”


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## jis

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this just the obvious other shoe dropping, in a manner of speaking?

The first shoe was Flynn sending a letter to Congress stating that Amtrak will have a shortfall of about a billion dollars in FY21 that will need to be covered with supplemental appropriation.

Having heard pin drop silence from all, the next obvious step is to plan for operations assuming that there will be a $1 billion budget shortfall. Then the discussion becomes how do you keep the company going while staying within the available resources. Of course Congress has it within its power to fix this problem in a snap, if they choose to do so.


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## railiner

jis said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this just the obvious other shoe dropping, in a manner of speaking?
> 
> The first shoe was Flynn sending a letter to Congress stating that Amtrak will have a shortfall of about a billion dollars in FY21 that will need to be covered with supplemental appropriation.
> 
> Having heard pin drop silence from all, the next obvious step is to plan for operations assuming that there will be a $1 billion budget shortfall. Then the discussion becomes how do you keep the company going while staying within the available resources. Of course Congress has it within its power to fix this problem in a snap, if they choose to do so.


Seems like we've seen this "scare tactic" before, from Amtrak president's...IIRC, even the vernerated W G Claytor used this to get his desired funding from Congress at one time or other. Especially effective if you target the 'home train' of budgetary chairperson's....
Not sure if this form of "blackmail" would work in today's climate...


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## Cho Cho Charlie

MikefromCrete said:


> Write to your congressmen and senators, people, and put a stop to this nonsense.



Yep, when congress gets involved, it always fixes things for the better.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

jebr said:


> This seems like a very poor move in terms of trying to save money. Sure, you save on some labor expenses and fuel, but you don't remove much of your capital expenses, building expenses, etc., and the only major savings on equipment is if ridership drops further so you don't need as many cars to operate. You can still shorten a consist somewhat as demand requires, and 7x/week of a shorter consist may result in similar mileage as 3x/week full consist.



I am looking at this, in a similar way. 

Alternating the Silvers, at common stations, means that all these stations will be kept open for 7-days. Not much savings doing that. 
I assume the Lounges will be kept open daily, to serve the remaining First Class and Sleeper Class passengers. No real savings there.
Equipment is all owned. So, not using equipment only saves a bit in wear&tear.


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## Metra Electric Rider

Why should Amtrak be exempt from belt-tightening; school districts across the country are warning about massive cuts to their budgets in the fall as are most municipal services. I think we're going to have to get used to stuff getting cut unfortunately (just like we're getting used to shortages in grocery stores, etc) for the foreseeable future. Amtrak is lucky in that it's federal, so it's possible that it will get some funding that things local won't be able to.


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## AmtrakFlyer

They are being cut appropriately now. Some trains only have 4 On board service employees and are half the size as normal. You can’t run a functioning transit system 3 days a week. It’s a model that has been proven to be a failure in the short and long term costing revenue along with riders making for higher loses.


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## MARC Rider

the_traveler said:


> If someone was going from say Charleston, WV to Salem, OR on 3X trains, they look at the schedule.
> 
> “I can go by Amtrak, but I would have to travel 5 days, including overnights in Chicago and either Portland or Sacramento, or I could fly for the same fare or less with 1 short connection and be there in 9 hours. Which should I chose?”


Even if the trains run every day, it's going to take 3-4 days to get from Charleston to Salem by train, vs. 9 hours by airline. Which should I choose?
The vast majority of Amtrak passengers, even on the long-distance trains, aren't making transcontinental journeys involving multiple transfers. The national network is not government-supported for the benefit of long-distance riders, it's supported for the benefit of people in small communities that don't have alternate forms of non-auto transportation. I suppose its functionality could be replaced with government supported intercity coach service on public highways, except that the buses get stuck in the traffic jams on the approaches to the large cities. Or they could run direct coach service from these rural locations to regional airports where the passengers can connect to flights to wherever they want to go.
I don't know how much money Amtrak is saving from the reduced service. It is possible that there's a political component to this as well, either to demonstrate to their Congressional paymasters that they're good stewards of tax dollars by not spending taxpayer money on empty trains, or as in implied threat that additional funds are going to be needed to get through the rough patch of reduced ridership. Congress (even when run by "conservatives") is on the record as supporting the national network. This might be a shot across the bow to remind Congress that they need to "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk."


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## neroden

I have told my Representative and Senators to stop this dumbassery. I can state as a professional investment analyst that this is a way to lose more money.

What I think Amtrak should do is to eliminate the coaches (and the cafes and dining cars), only run sleepers, and advertise the hell out of their virus-safety and social distancing value. Travel in a private compartment with non-recirculated air -- be safe, avoid the airplanes.

And run daily obviously.

Labor costs would drop a lot with no cafes and no coaches. One locomotive and one sleeper daily would be the baseline, with more sleepers for more demand.


----------



## west point

If Amtrak goes to 3 days a week it will not be operationally ever to go back to daily service. The first problem of course will be laid off T & E crews. They will drift to other jobs and after the Cascades wreck training will take 60 days at least. But the real gorilla will be the P-42s . Amtrak will park the bad actors and when Amtrak tries to run them again they will become 10x bad actors.


----------



## Barciur

I had a reservation for the meteor on December 27 going southbound from the northeast. It has now been turned into a reservation on a silver Star. I guess that answers the question on whether they'll go back to higher frequencies through the winter period.


----------



## tricia

Barciur said:


> I had a reservation for the meteor on December 27 going southbound from the northeast. It has now been turned into a reservation on a silver Star. I guess that answers the question on whether they'll go back to higher frequencies through the winter period.



When did you hear about the change in reservation? (I haven't been following the Stars closely--is your change part of the new service reductions posed this week, or something earlier?)


----------



## RebelRider

John Bobinyec said:


> Where did that July 6 date come from? The letter to employees mentions October 1.
> 
> jb



Amtrak didn’t announce this service reduction at all. Just letting it quietly fly under the radar along with the jobs that will be cut before October 1. Changes are effective in Arrow.

Silver Star will originate northbound Thur-Sat and southbound Fri-Sun.
Silver Meteor will originate northbound Sun-Wed and southbound Mon-Thur.


----------



## Barciur

tricia said:


> When did you hear about the change in reservation? (I haven't been following the Stars closely--is your change part of the new service reductions posed this week, or something earlier?)


I just received an email about it this morning. It must be part of the changes announced this week - or rather not announced. 

This is what my reservation looks like now. Which incidentally makes no sense because I'm arriving in Philly after the Star leaves.


----------



## tricia

FWIW, I just checked Amtrak.com and found the Crescent is still running every day the first week of October. (I've got a reservation southbound that week, and am hoping it doesn't change.) So at least some of the proposed changes haven't been entered into the booking system. Yet.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Barciur said:


> I just received an email about it this morning. It must be part of the changes announced this week - or rather not announced.
> 
> This is what my reservation looks like now. Which incidentally makes no sense because I'm arriving in Philly after the Star leaves.
> 
> View attachment 17796



Yikes. Looks like a phone call is necessary. I wonder how many people will miss trains because of broken connections that Amtrak didn’t pick up on.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

chrsjrcj said:


> Yikes. Looks like a phone call is necessary. I wonder how many people will miss trains because of broken connections that Amtrak didn’t pick up on.


I had an airline do that to me once. Changed my connecting flight to one that left before my arrival flight. Luckily I caught it before my trip.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Keep the calls coming into your reps it makes all the difference in the world.

Calls to local offices seem to do better vs the Wash DC offices. My local senators and rep offices here in my town answer the phone on the first ring, take time to listen to what you are saying and you can actually hear them typing your comments into the computer. To me it sounds like they are actually happy to be talking to someone. Maybe no one calls these satellite offices, who knows. Thought I’d throw it out since someone mentioned above they got a response to something totally unrelated to what they called or wrote about.

On a side note they were already familiar with this latest Amtrak scheme when I called yesterday and thanked me for calling.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

De Ja Vu. Cutbacks discourage passengers; reduced loads justify further cutbacks.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

the_traveler said:


> If someone was going from say Charleston, WV to Salem, OR on 3X trains, they look at the schedule.
> 
> “I can go by Amtrak, but I would have to travel 5 days, including overnights in Chicago and either Portland or Sacramento, or I could fly for the same fare or less with 1 short connection and be there in 9 hours. Which should I chose?”



Well, Dave, most people would probably fly. But I bet you would do the three trains with the overnights in the cities—it sounds like a classic “traveler” trip—going the longest way possible to get in as many trains as you can!


----------



## NativeSon5859

I just got off the Crescent this morning in WAS. The cuts are happening. SA (who’s in the top 100 in seniority in the whole OBS division) told me some new higher up was recently on the train and talking to the employees about the upcoming reductions. He said he kept on calling them (the employees) “commodities”. Anyway, just passing on what I heard.


----------



## piedpiper

If they go thru with this assinine plan, I perdict the death of Amtrak, as we know it, by the end of 2020


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

I don’t think it’s THAT dire but it’s definitely bad. Right now the fight should be to keep the network intact (hopefully daily) and live to fight another day which in this case is November/January when hopefully we will have a new head of the Department of Transportation.

Elaine Chao is on record as being hostile to the network trains just like Amtrak’s management. A new competent department head and a non hostile funding request from the possible new Administration would shake things up for the better. It would also possibly mitigate or replace Amtrak’s current “leadership” with more competent individuals who have a vision.

I take solace in the fact we probably only have 5 months left of this Administration. Amtrak needs more than its bipartisan support in Congress to thrive, it needs leadership from the Administration and from within its own ranks as well.


----------



## tonys96

A while back, in another thread, I said that I thought the LD network would not be the same a year from that date as it was that day. I expected some changes to some routes 
Now it seems that the entire network will be different. 

A few years ago, there were a few of us who considered the first "amenity" changes to just be the tip of the iceberg on what was to come. We caught a lot of flack. Seems we just may have been correct. Sadly.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tonys96 said:


> A while back, in another thread, I said that I thought the LD network would not be the same a year from that date as it was that day. I expected some changes to some routes
> Now it seems that the entire network will be different.
> 
> A few years ago, there were a few of us who considered the first "amenity" changes to just be the tip of the iceberg on what was to come. We caught a lot of flack. Seems we just may have been correct. Sadly.


Well, nobody on AU predicted the pandemic. I wouldn’t say these cuts are due to bad management but are due to what a lot of companies are going they right now due to the pandemic.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

My trip on the Sliver Meteor on August 2nd has become a trip on the Sliver Star. Per the email today.

Whole trip has now been cancelled into 2021.

Not sure if 2021 is a good idea, but it’s something to hold on to.


----------



## the_traveler

My station (FED) has 2 routes serving it - both of which are “temporarily cancelled”!

As bad as it is for me not having trains, you can’t even go from Saratoga to Plattsburgh or Schenectady to Rutland. Neither route is running at all.


----------



## John Bredin

I sent the following email to Amtrak today:
I am writing to express my displeasure and concern at the proposal to slash the already skeletal long-distance system so that most routes don't run daily but only 2-3 times weekly.

While I understand that the coronavirus epidemic has severely impacted travel demand, daily service on all long-distance routes is the minimum level of service that allows (1) same-day transfers or connections and (2) travelers to arrive or depart on any day they choose rather than having to change their travel plans to fit the train schedule. 

Anything less than daily service is too inconvenient to attract passengers who can choose between driving, taking Amtrak, taking a bus, or (with videoconferencing etc.) not traveling at all. It will discourage travelers from considering Amtrak so that demand numbers never recover and daily service is never restored.

In the past, I have taken several trips by long-distance train in sleeper class the entire length of the route (California Zephyr, City of New Orleans, Lake Shore Ltd., Capitol Ltd.). I plan to travel by Amtrak long-distance train ... if they are still running. 

If long-distance service is slashed as proposed, I see little reason to continue accumulating Guest Reward points, by using my Amtrak Guest Rewards credit card as my primary credit card, to take sleeper-class long-distance trips as I have in the past.


----------



## John Bredin

I just sent the same message (slightly tweaked) to Anthony Coscia, chairman of the Amtrak board, at his easily-googled law firm address.


----------



## Barb Stout

railiner said:


> Seems like we've seen this "scare tactic" before, from Amtrak president's...IIRC, even the vernerated W G Claytor used this to get his desired funding from Congress at one time or other. Especially effective if you target the 'home train' of budgetary chairperson's....
> Not sure if this form of "blackmail" would work in today's climate...


Who is conveniently a Republican from no-train Wyoming.


----------



## LookingGlassTie

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, nobody on AU predicted the pandemic. I’m wouldn’t say these cuts are due to bad management but are due to what a lot of companies are going they right now due to the pandemic.



Yeah that's what I'm thinking too.

But what I'm wondering is (based on what others have said) would the cuts be necessary or as deep if Congress had approved the funding that Amtrak requested?


----------



## Barb Stout

NativeSon5859 said:


> I just got off the Crescent this morning in WAS. The cuts are happening. SA (who’s in the top 100 in seniority in the whole OBS division) told me some new higher up was recently on the train and talking to the employees about the upcoming reductions. He said he kept on calling them (the employees) “commodities”. Anyway, just passing on what I heard.


Commodities?! What the heck!?


----------



## Barb Stout

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, nobody on AU predicted the pandemic. I’m wouldn’t say these cuts are due to bad management but are due to what a lot of companies are going they right now due to the pandemic.


Actually someone did predict it. Mr. or Ms. Elephant in the Room raised concerns early in the "game'. I thought s/he was just a paranoid freeker and that the situation was going to be like SARS with Seattle substituting for Toronto. I regret both that I was wrong (in both ways) and that I thought that about Mr./Ms Elephant.


----------



## me_little_me

Barciur said:


> I just received an email about it this morning. It must be part of the changes announced this week - or rather not announced.
> 
> This is what my reservation looks like now. Which incidentally makes no sense because I'm arriving in Philly after the Star leaves.
> 
> View attachment 17796


Whine! Whine! Whine! Next you'll be wanting that fixed. Be reasonable. It's the Covid. We can blame that for everything.


----------



## me_little_me

Barb Stout said:


> Commodities?! What the heck!?


Well, it started as "Personnel" if anyone remembers those days when employees were thought of as people. Then it became "human resources" so it was just like other resources - equipment, supplies, etc. This way, "resources" can be disposed of because they are not people.
Now it's commodities. Even lower than resources because you need resources but commodities are available from anywhere.
I'm guessing Disposables is the next word for employees. It's that way in all but name anyway.

Just be thankful they don't call it "Soylent Green".


----------



## Barb Stout

me_little_me said:


> Well, it started as "Personnel" if anyone remembers those days when employees were thought of as people. Then it became "human resources" so it was just like other resources - equipment, supplies, etc. This way, "resources" can be disposed of because they are not people.
> Now it's commodities. Even lower than resources because you need resources but commodities are available from anywhere.
> I'm guessing Disposables is the next word for employees. It's that way in all but name anyway.
> 
> Just be thankful they don't call it "Soylent Green".


"You are a 50 pound bag of soybeans, more than a bargain to me-e-e!" That line is from a song by The Roaches (I think).


----------



## SanDiegan

mitako said:


> I'm assuming that the switch to the microwaved TV dinners is also extended, but see no mention of that in the announcement. I generally do two big train trips each year, which include stays in two to four cities, and usually involve more than one train route. Reduced service would make it really hard to plan my trips, and I'm not eager to pay the exorbitant rates (we always book a roomette) to eat from a tiny selection of TV dinners for several days on the train. I've already written to my congresspeople..... LOL, received a response from Kamala Harris's office thanking me for my concern over California response to the pandemic, clearly my email was NOT actually read by anyone there.



The dining cars are probably gone forever


----------



## SanDiegan

MikefromCrete said:


> This seems to be a very odd move. Why did Amtrak operate all the LD trains during the height of the Covid 19 crisis, then decide to reduce service as the nation moves back to a semi-normal status? Write to your congressmen and senators, people, and put a stop to this nonsense.



Government logic


----------



## SanDiegan

jebr said:


> This seems like a very poor move in terms of trying to save money. Sure, you save on some labor expenses and fuel, but you don't remove much of your capital expenses, building expenses, etc., and the only major savings on equipment is if ridership drops further so you don't need as many cars to operate. You can still shorten a consist somewhat as demand requires, and 7x/week of a shorter consist may result in similar mileage as 3x/week full consist.
> 
> It seems far smarter, at least for a short-term solution, to significantly scale back on-board services and run a bare-bones but daily operation. Remove most services from the sleeper cars and treat it closer to "coach-with-a-bed" in terms of amenities given, remove the dining car temporarily, and have food service handled by the cafe car. It may not be the service we're used to, but it'd still provide essential transportation and leave a better structure in place to build from.



Makes way too much sense ...


----------



## SanDiegan

jis said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this just the obvious other shoe dropping, in a manner of speaking?
> 
> The first shoe was Flynn sending a letter to Congress stating that Amtrak will have a shortfall of about a billion dollars in FY21 that will need to be covered with supplemental appropriation.
> 
> Having heard pin drop silence from all, the next obvious step is to plan for operations assuming that there will be a $1 billion budget shortfall. Then the discussion becomes how do you keep the company going while staying within the available resources. Of course Congress has it within its power to fix this problem in a snap, if they choose to do so.



Very low on the priority list ...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

SanDiegan said:


> The dining cars will probably gone forever



They’ve gone and come back before... just like the trains have gone to tri-weekly and come back to daily before. 

Of course the parlour cars really did leave for good and the theee Rivers, Silver palm, and pioneer are but a memory.


----------



## SanDiegan

AmtrakFlyer said:


> They are being cut appropriately now. Some trains only have 4 On board service employees and are half the size as normal. You can’t run a functioning transit system 3 days a week. It’s a model that has been proven to be a failure in the short and long term costing revenue along with riders making for higher loses.



Three days a week, or even once a week, is fine for "experiential" trains ;-)


----------



## SanDiegan

AmtrakFlyer said:


> I don’t think it’s THAT dire but it’s definitely bad. Right now the fight should be to keep the network intact (hopefully daily) and live to fight another day which in this case is November/January when hopefully we will have a new head of the Department of Transportation.
> 
> Elaine Chao is on record as being hostile to the network trains just like Amtrak’s management. A new competent department head and a non hostile funding request from the possible new Administration would shake things up for the better. It would also possibly mitigate or replace Amtrak’s current “leadership” with more competent individuals who have a vision.
> 
> I take solace in the fact we probably only have 5 months left of this Administration. Amtrak needs more than its bipartisan support in Congress to thrive, it needs leadership from the Administration and from within its own ranks as well.



Looking back at the last fifty years, I am skeptical. Amtrak is not a priority, especially now given all of the other "priorities"


----------



## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> They’ve gone and come back before... just like the trains have gone to tri-weekly and come back to daily before.
> 
> Of course the parlour cars really did leave for good and the theee Rivers, Silver palm, and pioneer are but a memory.


As are several other Amtrak Trains!( Broadway,Desert Wind,Pioneer,Montrealer etc)

The real hope is with Congress, even though Biden is known as "Amtrak Joe", ( and if Trmp gets re-elected who knows??)Democrat Presidents have actually cut more than Republican Presidents!!


----------



## tim49424

In the meantime, my hometown train, the Pere Marquette remains suspended. Rumor has it, that it's not supposed to be reinstated to service *until* October 1. Maybe now that Amtrak has authorized service reductions, could that date be optimistic and a pipedream?


----------



## Dakota 400

SanDiegan said:


> The dining cars are probably gone forever



If so, I am gone as well. I'm not going to pay sleeper car pricing for meals that are nothing more--or less--than TV dinners, if that.


----------



## flitcraft

Dakota 400 said:


> If so, I am gone as well. I'm not going to pay sleeper car pricing for meals that are nothing more--or less--than TV dinners, if that.



And that is the point of cuts like dining cuts--to drive away passengers so that everything except commuter routes can be done away with. I'm reminded of a quote from the great comedienne, Lily Tomlin, "No matter how cynical I get, I worry that it's never enough."


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> As are several other Amtrak Trains!( Broadway,Desert Wind,Pioneer,Montrealer etc)
> 
> The real hope is with Congress, even though Biden is known as "Amtrak Joe", ( and if Trmp gets re-elected who knows??)Democrat Presidents have actually cut more than Republican Presidents!!


Oh no! Say it isn't so! Would Biden actually cut Amtrak service? The continuing decline is like going over Niagara Falls. We'd better hold on cause it looks like it'll be quite a ride!


----------



## the_traveler

SanDiegan said:


> The dining cars are probably gone forever


Amtrak spent $$$$ on all those new Viewliner Dining Cars - and then made them “sleeping class lounge cars” serving boxed meals - and coach passengers can’t even use them for dining! So why have a kitchen?


----------



## Palmetto

I notice there has been no announcement of service reductions on the Northeast Corridor. Just sayin;


----------



## keelhauled

Palmetto said:


> I notice there has been no announcement of service reductions on the Northeast Corridor. Just sayin;


I notice you obviously didn't read the second post in this thread. Just saying.


----------



## dlagrua

All I can say is wow! The board that is running Amtrak has no idea how to build ridership. LD 3X wk cannot and will not work. Ridership will only return if services and full amenities are restored. Amtrak needs to attract ridership not discourage it. If the dining cars are permanently gone then there is no incentive for us to spend big bucks on the sleepers to ride the service. It will be back to the road.


----------



## railiner

Maybe it's all a big conspiracy to "put Greyhound back into business"....


----------



## Barb Stout

crescent-zephyr said:


> They’ve gone and come back before... just like the trains have gone to tri-weekly and come back to daily before.


Which trains?


----------



## MARC Rider

Barb Stout said:


> Which trains?


I believe the Empire Builder was less than daily at one point, and was later restored to daily service.


----------



## Eric S

MARC Rider said:


> I believe the Empire Builder was less than daily at one point, and was later restored to daily service.


Didn't the cuts in the mid-1990s result in most long-distance trains, or maybe it was just the western ones, being cut to less-than-daily service (I recall a mix of 3-, 4-, and maybe 5-days/week service) for a period of time? And then when the Desert Wind and Pioneer were cut the remaining trains were restored to daily operation?


----------



## MARC Rider

Palmetto said:


> I notice there has been no announcement of service reductions on the Northeast Corridor. Just sayin;


1) That's not true. There's a ~20% service reduction on the NEC.
2) The NEC is about the only part of the Amtrak system in which passenger rail has a significant market share. Anderson's goal to build up <500 mi corridor service (which I would take to mean making other corridors more like the NEC and increasing the number of corridors) was probably a rational approach. 
3) The only reason the national network exists is to provide pork-barrel spending in a larger number of more rural states. Our political system is such that legislators from rural states tend to call the shots, so providing service to rural areas is a political necessity for support for the more rational parts of the system. After all, adequate passenger service from rural towns could be provided much more cheaply (and to more locations) by funding a network of motor coach lines that connect to regional airports and corridor service stations. 
4) Sleeping car and dining car service is provided on the long distance trains solely as a way to cross subsidize the service by increasing net revenue. Thus, the cost of providing the service needs to be a lot less than the additional revenue. (That's probably why sleeper fares are so high and OBS staffing is inadequate.) 
5) I have priced trips on privately run excursion trains that claim to provide full traditional service (i.e. fresh cooked meals, fancy lounge service, attentive SCA's, etc.) The prices are far higher than even the highest bucket Amtrak sleeper fare for an equivalent trip. Let's face it, times have changed. White-glove service is going to cost you, and most of us probably can't afford it anymore.
6) With all that, Congress has previously expressed support for the full Amtrak network. Thus, while it may be appropriate right now to not spew out pointless greenhouse gas emissions by running empty trains, I suspect than as demand increases, most of the service will eventually be restored.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Barb Stout said:


> Which trains?



I’ll have to dig out some old timetables but as others have said I’m remembering most if not all of the Western trains cut down in the 90’s and into the early 2000’s.


----------



## tonys96

AmtrakBlue said:


> Well, nobody on AU predicted the pandemic. I wouldn’t say these cuts are due to bad management but are due to what a lot of companies are going they right now due to the pandemic.


Agreed. No one could have predicted the virus. However, the reaction to it just _might_ be something that extends far into the future past the end of the virus scare. As it seemed the direction things were going anyway, perhaps the virus _might_ have accelerated it.


----------



## Eric S

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ll have to dig out some old timetables but as others have said I’m remembering most if not all of the Western trains cut down in the 90’s and into the early 2000’s.


A quick look at old timetables suggests it was mainly 1995-1997 with many long distance trains operating less than daily.


----------



## NativeSon5859

Here’s an idea of the operation in 1996.

CONO: 6X weekly
California Zephyr: 4X weekly
Empire Builder: daily CHI-MSP, 4X weekly MSP-SEA/PDX
Texas Eagle: 3X weekly
Crescent: 4X weekly NOL-ATL, daily ATL-NYP

By 1997, everything above resorted back to daily service. 

Desert Wind, Pioneer, Sunset, and Cardinal all 3X weekly.


----------



## Siegmund

If you go back even further, you'll find long stretches in the early 70s where the San Francisco Zephyr ran only 3 times a week west of Denver, the Builder only 3 times a week west of Minneapolis, the Coast Starlight only 3 times a week north of Oakland. But those were different, in that they were a) systematically cut back during the off-season and made daily again in the peak season every year, and b) by the mid-70s they ran every day year round.

The Builder/North Coast Hiawatha had the most complicated variations on this, with 'bad years' when they ran on alternate days, in-between years where one ran daily and the other triweekly (sometimes combined east of Minneapolis sometimes not), good years where both ran daily, but not sure we ever got to a period where both-trains-daily became 'normal' (maintained for more than a year or so.)

It was the 90s cuts that felt like the current ones - running trains fewer days per week to save operating costs but not save equipment, and doing bait-and-switches like Daily CZ/Wind/Pioneer --> 4xCZ / 3x Wind/Pioneer -> Daily CZ, Wind/Pioneer cut.


----------



## 41bridge

An earlier reference was made that maybe things will change Nov. 3. Keep in mind there won't be any change until Jan. 20, 2021, 7 months from now. If Trump is reelected all bets are off!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

41bridge said:


> Better check your math. This administration is in power until noon Jan. 20, 2021. 7 months by my reckoning.


Of course you are right but there are provisions for an incoming administration to quickly reverse changes which occur shortly before transition. That being said I personally believe the current administration will find a way to secure reelection one way or another and have no reason to reverse anything. Even if they lose I do not believe they will leave willingly and will instead revive claims of a vast conspiracy while daring our justice system to kick them out and calling on supporters to defend them at all costs. Under the current bench they would probably lose but it could take a while for that to happen and with each new claim they might gain more time to further manipulate the outcome. If the skeleton of RBG were unable to participate there's a chance they could remain in power indefinitely regardless of the outcome.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

I personally think the popular vote will be a landslide victory for Biden and the EC probably won’t be close either. The fringe has had their 15 mins of fame. Sure pockets of the South and Midwest will stay in GOP control but that very well could be it.

The transformation that could take place would be life changing for our younger generations. We have to get away from a country where everything goes to corporations and the ultra wealthy at the expense of everyone else. It won’t be until this next generation retires who don’t have pensions or true healthcare for it to become obvious. I think we’ve forgotten what it’s like to live in a first world country because as of today we really don’t looking at quality of life and health. We’re currently 46th in lifespan tied with Cuba low second world standards. There’s also a huge quality of life difference in the above 60 crowd vs the below 60 crowd as well which makes it hard for some to recognize the problem.

Specific to Amtrak our infastructure will take years to get back to the standard of other first world countries. Rail will be involved in that to some extent. Other issues will fall into place as well.

I’m realist though while I don’t think Trump will win re election it’s possible Biden and the Dems will be led into a deficit reduction mindset from the minority GOP and nothing will change.

I think Amtrak will survive but it’s best days (and our country’s) are both behind us at this point unfortunately unless something drastically changes soon.


----------



## Palmetto

keelhauled said:


> I notice you obviously didn't read the second post in this thread. Just saying.


 Touché


----------



## Dakota 400

Devil's Advocate said:


> Even if they lose I do not believe they will leave willingly and will instead revive claims of a vast conspiracy while daring our justice system to kick them out and calling on supporters to defend them at all costs. Under the current bench they would probably lose but it could take a while for that to happen and with each new claim they might gain more time to further manipulate the outcome. If the skeleton of RBG were unable to participate then there's a chance they could remain in power indefinitely regardless of the outcome.



God forbid your scenario occurs! Can you imagine the chaos that would take place in this Country!


----------



## Dakota 400

MARC Rider said:


> 5) I have priced trips on privately run excursion trains that claim to provide full traditional service (i.e. fresh cooked meals, fancy lounge service, attentive SCA's, etc.) The prices are far higher than even the highest bucket Amtrak sleeper fare for an equivalent trip.



True, but remember that there is a different focus as to why such trains are offered. People who book such trips do so for different reasons than why many book Amtrak.


----------



## Dakota 400

AmtrakFlyer said:


> it’s possible Biden and the Dems will be led into a deficit reduction mindset from the minority GOP and nothing will change.



Sooner or later, someone(s) are going to have to "bite the bullet", be the statesmen/women that we need, and utter the "T" word: Taxes. This applies Nationally as well as in the States and Localities. They have to be increased if we are going to have the kind of first world country that we want that provides the services (including Amtrak) and benefits that we expect.


----------



## Seaboard92

I sent my displeasure straight to the man whom we all believe is the mastermind of this Mr. Stephen Gardner. I am happy to help others who would like to send your messages directly to him.


----------



## uncleboots

I called Amtrak Reservations around 1PM Central June 18th. I asked them if they could give me the 3 trains per week schedule for the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder after October 1. The Lady told me that she has not been told of any service being cut to 3 days a week and Amtrak's Web Site is showing Daily Service after October for the Coast Starlight, the Southwest Chief and the Empire Builder. Does anyone have any info as to what's actually going on.


----------



## TinCan782

uncleboots said:


> I called Amtrak Reservations around 1PM Central June 18th. I asked them if they could give me the 3 trains per week schedule for the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder after October 1. The Lady told me that she has not been told of any service being cut to 3 days a week and Amtrak's Web Site is showing Daily Service after October for the Coast Starlight, the Southwest Chief and the Empire Builder. Does anyone have any info as to what's actually going on.


I've been looking at some October fares via AmSnag ( AmSnag Verson 2.02 ) and it shows fares for every day of the month. If the schedule reduction is gonna happen, its not yet in the "system".


----------



## Palmland

Perhaps Amtrak is hedging their bets. Maybe they want to see how strong bookings are before reducing service and changing reservations to a reduced frequency schedule. Or, more likely, it could just be one hand not knowing what the other is doing.


----------



## toddinde

Palmetto said:


> It's been decided by Amtrak that LD trains will operate only 3X per week, effective October 1.
> 
> There are, however, two trains that will operate 4X per week: the Silver Metoer and the Auto Train. That gives stations between Petersburg VA and Miami daily service.
> 
> Increases in service will be implemented in the future as demand for riding returns.


Auto Train remains daily. The Meteor and Palmetto alternate. While Amtrak has decided, Congress can make them undecide. Call your congressional representatives.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> God forbid your scenario occurs! Can you imagine the chaos that would take place in this Country!


Happened once before, it was called "The Civil War" by the North and Historians and "The War of Northern Aggression" by the Traitorous Confederacy!


----------



## fdaley

jebr said:


> It seems far smarter, at least for a short-term solution, to significantly scale back on-board services and run a bare-bones but daily operation. Remove most services from the sleeper cars and treat it closer to "coach-with-a-bed" in terms of amenities given, remove the dining car temporarily, and have food service handled by the cafe car.



As a formerly frequent sleeper traveler, it seems to me that Amtrak's management had already turned sleeper service into "coach with a bed," at least on the eastern trains, before the pandemic hit. With the advent of "contemporary" boxed meals, the dining cars are no longer used for cooking, nor do they offer table service, so they might as well not be there. And nearly every other smaller perk of sleeper travel from past years -- a daily newspaper, route guides, even a printed schedule -- is no longer offered. On every Viewliner trip of the past couple of years, the SCA gave me my threadbare blue blankets in their plastic wrapping, leaving me to remake the beds myself. But the price for the so-called "first class" sleeper experience still starts at $300 a night for a roomette or $550 or better for a bedroom. The end of dining service was the last straw for me and left me staying home a lot more often. Now, with travel including the risk of encountering a potentially deadly virus, I double don't want to go. 

So, I completely agree in principle that anything less than daily service is a terrible idea, because the financial savings will be far more than offset by the reduction in usefulness of trains to travelers. But I don't really have any confidence that, if the current board and management of Amtrak remain in place, the onboard experience will ever be restored to a level I'd want to use myself or recommend to anyone else, no matter how often the trains run.


----------



## Michigan Mom

MARC Rider said:


> 1) That's not true. There's a ~20% service reduction on the NEC.
> 2) The NEC is about the only part of the Amtrak system in which passenger rail has a significant market share. Anderson's goal to build up <500 mi corridor service (which I would take to mean making other corridors more like the NEC and increasing the number of corridors) was probably a rational approach.
> 3) The only reason the national network exists is to provide pork-barrel spending in a larger number of more rural states. Our political system is such that legislators from rural states tend to call the shots, so providing service to rural areas is a political necessity for support for the more rational parts of the system. After all, adequate passenger service from rural towns could be provided much more cheaply (and to more locations) by funding a network of motor coach lines that connect to regional airports and corridor service stations.
> 4) Sleeping car and dining car service is provided on the long distance trains solely as a way to cross subsidize the service by increasing net revenue. Thus, the cost of providing the service needs to be a lot less than the additional revenue. (That's probably why sleeper fares are so high and OBS staffing is inadequate.)
> 5) I have priced trips on privately run excursion trains that claim to provide full traditional service (i.e. fresh cooked meals, fancy lounge service, attentive SCA's, etc.) The prices are far higher than even the highest bucket Amtrak sleeper fare for an equivalent trip. Let's face it, times have changed. White-glove service is going to cost you, and most of us probably can't afford it anymore.
> 6) With all that, Congress has previously expressed support for the full Amtrak network. Thus, while it may be appropriate right now to not spew out pointless greenhouse gas emissions by running empty trains, I suspect than as demand increases, most of the service will eventually be restored.



God I hope you are right


----------



## Devil's Advocate

fdaley said:


> As a formerly frequent sleeper traveler, it seems to me that Amtrak's management had already turned sleeper service into "coach with a bed," at least on the eastern trains, before the pandemic hit.


If Amtrak priced and marketed their sleepers closer to the actual onboard experience it might not seem so insulting, but paying hundreds or thousands more for "coach with a bed" feels like a ripoff to me. In my opinion Amtrak staff treat coach passengers like freight and the more sleeper service emulates coach the worse it's going to get. Like you I have little faith any of this is coming back under the current administration unless it is forced upon them. I do believe that it's better to have daily trains than intermittent trains but I also think it's important to remember that many who comment on sleepers don't actually use them on a regular basis and thus have little or no skin in the game when they repeatedly volunteer to give away every service and amenity on someone else's behalf.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Amtrak plans triweekly service for almost all long-distance trains as of Oct. 1 - Trains


WASHINGTON — Amtrak plans to reduce most long-distance trains to three-day-a-week service as of Oct. 1, according to an internal message obtained by Trains News Wire. In an internal “Service Update,” Amtrak Executive Vice President, Chief Marketing and Revenue Service Officer Roger Harris told...




trn.trains.com





As expected Amtrak’s own numbers don’t justify the network cuts at least as drastic as they propose. The June numbers should be even better.

“While ridership and revenue remains suppressed because of the pandemic, long-distance ticket revenues climbed 71%, from $6.8 million to $11.6 million, between April and May. Operating with approximately the same frequencies, Northeast Corridor billing rose about 60% from $1.5 million to $2.4 million, and state supported trains generated less than a 50% increase, from $2.3 million in April to $3.5 million in May. So existing long-distance service, mostly operating seven days a week, provided almost double the May revenue of Corridor and state-supported operations.”


----------



## cocojacoby

dlagrua said:


> All I can say is wow! The board that is running Amtrak has no idea how to build ridership. LD 3X wk cannot and will not work. Ridership will only return if services and full amenities are restored. Amtrak needs to attract ridership not discourage it. If the dining cars are permanently gone then there is no incentive for us to spend big bucks on the sleepers to ride the service. It will be back to the road.



Yeah but what if the ridership just isn't there? Running mostly empty trains isn't very smart is it?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cocojacoby said:


> Yeah but what if the ridership just isn't there? Running mostly empty trains isn't very smart is it?


Trains will very likely be more empty after the change than before it. While it MAY be able to reduce losses, the subsidy per passenger will go way up.


----------



## John Bredin

cocojacoby said:


> Yeah but what if the ridership just isn't there? Running mostly empty trains isn't very smart is it?


That would be an argument for slashing service two or three months back when many people couldn't travel, or even possibly now when travel demand is still very low (IIRC, much of California is still under strict shelter-at-home orders) but IMHO not in October when, knock on wood, travel demand will have started recovering.

Some of the most severe (and IMHO reasonable) slashing of Amtrak corridor service during the strictest stay-at-home orders -- no Acelas, no Hiawathas, no Downeasters, no Keystones or Pennsylvanian -- have been and are being walked back with partial restoration of service. Running daily long-distance trains during that period but then slashing LD service in October becomes even more bizarre in comparison.

As to running mostly empty trains, transit providers keep lightly-used bus and train runs as a cost of maintaining a scheduled headway (_e.g._ 15 minute buses, or hourly trains) that the riding public expects. They run a half-empty 10am train so that people who usually take the full 8am train can rely that there'll be a train every hour. So potential riders don't have to choose between memorizing gaps in the schedule and conforming their lives to them, or saying f'it it's easier to just drive. 

Same with Amtrak corridor service. I doubt every Acela or Keystone or Hiawatha has the ridership of the busy rush-hour runs, but cutting one lightly-traveled run in hopes of driving passengers to fill the preceding or following run would create a schedule gap that would discourage some passengers from choosing the train altogether.

Daily LD service is also the same. Nobody planning their travel has to think if today is a train day in their town, or they'll have to wait a day (or two!) to travel, if every day is a train day. Because if they do have to fit their lives to a 3-times-weekly Amtrak schedule, many will say f'it, it's easier to just drive.


----------



## the_traveler

I just got a response from my Congresscritter to my “request” regarding the cuts to Amtrak.

In the form letter email, it mentions 1) COVID-19, 2) CARES and 3) PPP. What do these have to do with Amtrak? It’s very clear it was not even looked at!


----------



## Dakota 400

the_traveler said:


> I just got a response from my Congresscritter to my “request” regarding the cuts to Amtrak.
> 
> In the form letter email, it mentions 1) COVID-19, 2) CARES and 3) PPP. What do these have to do with Amtrak? It’s very clear it was not even looked at!



That's the kind of nonsense I get from the Junior Senator from Ohio. I wrote an e-mail objecting to the firing of the Captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt. In "his" e-mail reply, I learn about some piece of legislation that he is promoting. My opinion: doing such is insulting.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> That's the kind of nonsense I get from the Junior Senator from Ohio. I wrote an e-mail objecting to the firing of the Captain of the USS Theodore Roosevelt. In "his" e-mail reply, I learn about some piece of legislation that he is promoting. My opinion: doing such is insulting.


These form letters and emails are written by staffers!

Unless the Member knows you personally, ie you give them campaign contributions,they probably dont have a clue what you wrote about.

When Lyndon Johnson was a Rep and Senator, he personally signed every letter that went out from his office, and he had a 2 day Rule, all Letters,Telegrams and Phone calls were to be answered within 2 days of receipt.


----------



## railiner

I am hearing from many, that emailing or writing our elected officials to protest this threatened cut in service, is pretty much a wasted effort...that the letter's, are either ignored, or answered with some form letter, that often is totally unrelated to the subject at hand.

What then would be the more effective way of getting the message across? A large protest rally?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> I am hearing from many, that emailing or writing our elected officials to protest this threatened cut in service, is pretty much a wasted effort...that the letter's, are either ignored, or answered with some form letter, that often is totally unrelated to the subject at hand. What then would be the more effective way of getting the message across? A large protest rally?


Love or hate them the rank and file NRA membership writes and calls anytime there's even a whiff of change in the air. Not once or twice but over and over again until they hear something that placates them. Do the people that think letters and phone calls are a waste of time also believe groups like the NRA are powerless to influence policy? Rallies are good if you have a large group who can agree to meet at the same time and place but that's usually something that happens after you've laid more groundwork than we have. You can still call and ask to meet and discuss your concerns in person. Initial attempts are likely to fail but repeated attempts can reach office staff who will take notes and pass along your concerns. Call-in radio programs and op-ed articles can also get attention. The only option that I consider useless is snail mail, mainly because the safety scanning process is likely to delay it so long it won't arrive until after any pending action. If we didn't spend our time trying dissuade each other from taking action we could be just as thorny and effective as any other special interest group.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

My suggestion call a local office of the Senator or Rep in your city or one close by if your city doesn’t have one. Don’t even mess with their DC office. In a nice way explain your upset you wrote a email about an issue and it was ignored and you received a form letter that had nothing to do with your issue. Just explain your disappointed they don’t take emails seriously.

That approach has opened doors for me with all three of my members of Congress. Within 36 hours after making a phone call to my local offices I unexpectedly received calls from two of the members staffers in DC. The specific staffers that deal with transportation/ Amtrak and have sat through meetings with Gardner and other Amtrak management. These are the people that do the real behind the scenes work on the issues and crafting bills. I have their personal work emails and have maintained contact with them. Even the third member (a senator) who didn’t have someone call has sent personalized responses to my emails since then. At one point in our correspondences they said Congress will have the final say as a safety net but suggested I start writing Amtrak’s board as well. I posted that letter from them here last year.

I really think phone calls to local offices are the way to go they’re more personalized as I’ve stated above but just as importantly your message gets in the computer system ASAP. Time is of the essence.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Geordie405 said:


> I think it will be interesting to see how ridership changes based on a reduced service frequency. I don't see it increasing, that's for sure. While people who take the train are perhaps less time-sensitive than those who fly they still probably don't have the sort of flexibility in their schedule that aligns nicely with a thrice weekly service. My train travel tends to be a vacation in itself so I am less fussed about whether I travel on a Saturday or a Tuesday for example but I can well imagine that for others it will become a bigger issue, leading them to abandon Amtrak and consider bus / car / plane as an alternative.
> 
> I have a trip on the CZ booked for September which is perhaps good timing. I do hope that the normal dining car service has been restored by then as I definitely don't fancy more TV dinner style meals.





the_traveler said:


> I just got a response from my Congresscritter to my “request” regarding the cuts to Amtrak.
> 
> In the form letter email, it mentions 1) COVID-19, 2) CARES and 3) PPP. What do these have to do with Amtrak? It’s very clear it was not even looked at!



I've had the same experience many times. They don't read the letters and you can no longer even get someone on the phone.


----------



## John Bredin

railiner said:


> I am hearing from many, that emailing or writing our elected officials to protest this threatened cut in service, is pretty much a wasted effort...that the letter's, are either ignored, or answered with some form letter, that often is totally unrelated to the subject at hand.
> 
> What then would be the more effective way of getting the message across? A large protest rally?


Don't get discouraged from writing to or calling your congressperson just because some people aren't getting responsive answers to their emails, letters, etc.

Firstly, just because some congresspeople are politically inclined against Amtrak or apathetic about it, and thus don't respond at all or give a vague and unresponsive reply, doesn't mean they all are. One of my senators has sent a responsive email to pretty much every email I've sent regarding Amtrak ... and most of the other issues I've written him about.

More importantly, I was told repeatedly by a non-profit lobbyist* that even legislators who don't personally care about a particular issue and don't send a responsive answer do keep track of the sheer number messages they get on an issue, assigning some staffer to keep a tally of them. If they get enough, they presume for each constituent who bothers to write or call there must be more constituents who agree but don't bother. The lobbyist called it the cockroach theory: for each one you see, there must be hundreds you don't.

*Working for non-profits, he had to work the glad-hand and shoe-leather at the state capitol when the assembly was in session. No $ for bribes.


----------



## DryCreek

Back to the topic:

Does anyone have any idea how this will affect the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited and their connections?
What about the Heartland Flyer? It pretty much relies on daily service for connecting passengers.

For a quick two or three day getaway, we enjoy hopping on the TE north to FTW, and spending the afternoon at Sunset Square before boarding the HF to OK City for an arrival at bedtime (walk to hotel, across the street).

Making the connecting TE less-than-daily kinda' fudges up that plan.

Would they just delete the 21/22 trains and only run 421/422 instead?


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

Unfortunately Amtrak exists because of politics. Without the great bipartisan blowback by Congress against Anderson the last 3 years Amtrak as we know it would already not exist. It’s a fact Trump wants the network defunded. It’s a fact the Republican held senate voted 94/6 to keep the network intact.

We all have our political views and yes we should try to keep them in check for the purposes of this forum. Amtrak politics are genuinely interesting because it’s one of the few issues with bipartisan support and in a lot of ways has no rhyme or reason.

Yes there are bad players in the game submitting near zero budget requests that want to see Amtrak fail. Other players in the game want to robustly fund the system for years to come. It’s all things we should and need to talk about in as civil a way as possible.


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## west point

If the Sunset keeps its present days the Eagle will probably match those days otherwise we will know that Amtrak is trying to kill LD service.


----------



## mitako

the_traveler said:


> I just got a response from my Congresscritter to my “request” regarding the cuts to Amtrak.
> 
> In the form letter email, it mentions 1) COVID-19, 2) CARES and 3) PPP. What do these have to do with Amtrak? It’s very clear it was not even looked at!


Maybe you are in California like me, because I got a similar email from Diane Feinstein's office. Of course, that was better than the canned reply from Kamala Harris's office, which didn't even mention Amtrak, just response to COVID.


----------



## me_little_me

Dakota 400 said:


> God forbid your scenario occurs! Can you imagine the chaos that would take place in this Country!


Did I take a wrong turn somewhere? I didn't realize this was a an Amtrak Conspiracy Theory forum. Now what button did I hit to bring that forum up?


----------



## Chey

DryCreek said:


> Back to the topic:
> 
> Would they just delete the 21/22 trains and only run 421/422 instead?



This article seems to suggest that but it's not really spelled out. I hope it's not going to happen.


----------



## dogbert617

Chey said:


> This article seems to suggest that but it's not really spelled out. I hope it's not going to happen.



I'd also guess just like others if Texas Eagle was reduced to 3 days a week service, that it'd be for on the 3 days that #421 and #422(the through Texas Eagle cars added and detached from Sunset Limited in San Antonio) run. I really hope this doesn't occur for October 2021, since Amtrak long distance riders already have suffered enough, from all the Anderson cuts of recent years. I.e. Pacific Parlour cars retired on Coast Starlight, full dining car service ended on most eastern long distance routes, continued removal of station agents and amenities(checked baggage, such as in Greenville, SC) from more stations, etc.

Time for me to write my Congressman and Senators, to see what sort of response I get from them. I suspect they'd probably be very concerned Amtrak is trying to reduce this much service, but we'll see what sort of response I get. I hope it isn't an indifferent response where the way it's worded that they more talk about things over than Amtrak, such as COVID in the letter someone wrote to Sen. Kamala Harris in California.


----------



## toddinde

John Bredin said:


> Don't get discouraged from writing to or calling your congressperson just because some people aren't getting responsive answers to their emails, letters, etc.
> 
> Firstly, just because some congresspeople are politically inclined against Amtrak or apathetic about it, and thus don't respond at all or give a vague and unresponsive reply, doesn't mean they all are. One of my senators has sent a responsive email to pretty much every email I've sent regarding Amtrak ... and most of the other issues I've written him about.
> 
> More importantly, I was told repeatedly by a non-profit lobbyist* that even legislators who don't personally care about a particular issue and don't send a responsive answer do keep track of the sheer number messages they get on an issue, assigning some staffer to keep a tally of them. If they get enough, they presume for each constituent who bothers to write or call there must be more constituents who agree but don't bother. The lobbyist called it the cockroach theory: for each one you see, there must be hundreds you don't.
> 
> *Working for non-profits, he had to work the glad-hand and shoe-leather at the state capitol when the assembly was in session. No $ for bribes.


They most certainly do care and respond to letters and phone calls. But if you aren’t a member of Rail Passenger Association and, as importantly, your statewide rail passenger advocacy, your missing a very important advocacy component. Work locally with mayors, city councils and county boards. Get them to pass resolutions. That’s important because local elected officials wield a lot of power, and state and federal legislators listen to them. All politics is local.


----------



## DryCreek

Chey said:


> This article seems to suggest that but it's not really spelled out. I hope it's not going to happen.


Thanks.

That's not really very encouraging news.


----------



## me_little_me

fdaley said:


> On every Viewliner trip of the past couple of years, the SCA gave me my threadbare blue blankets in their plastic wrapping, leaving me to remake the beds myself. But the price for the so-called "first class" sleeper experience still starts at $300 a night for a roomette or $550 or better for a bedroom. ...The end of dining service was the last straw for me and left me staying home a lot more often.


That's when I save a few bucks by eliminating the tipping. On our last round trip to NYC, no tip to either useless "server" and little to the SCAs for lack of help.
On a following trip from ABQ, on the CONO from Chicago, the server was wonderful, actually providing virtually full service of the garbage meals. She got a BIG tip. On the Crescent from NOL, worthless SCA and "server" meant no tips.
The food quality is independent of the service. I tip the server well when service is provided. No service, whether by direction of management or individual decision means no tipping (I hate those "tip boxes" for someone taking your order and handing you a package) and assisting us in boarding, disembarking and providing service to he room along with a friendly, helpful attitude all affect tip for SCA and the reduction of it to zero sometimes when those things are lacking.


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## Ferroequinologist

me_little_me said:


> That's when I save a few bucks by eliminating the tipping. On our last round trip to NYC, no tip to either useless "server" and little to the SCAs for lack of help.
> On a following trip from ABQ, on the CONO from Chicago, the server was wonderful, actually providing virtually full service of the garbage meals. She got a BIG tip. On the Crescent from NOL, worthless SCA and "server" meant no tips.
> The food quality is independent of the service. I tip the server well when service is provided. No service, whether by direction of management or individual decision means no tipping (I hate those "tip boxes" for someone taking your order and handing you a package) and assisting us in boarding, disembarking and providing service to he room along with a friendly, helpful attitude all affect tip for SCA and the reduction of it to zero sometimes when those things are lacking.



What's an appropriate tip for average service in a sleeping car for one night and two night trips?
Also curious: has any sleeping car attendant refused to bring meals to your room? And if they do, do you tip each time?


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## cocojacoby

Yeah, that crazy practice of leaving an unwrapped blanket in a plastic bag on your bed really upsets me too. Who the hell thought that one up?

As far as tips, in a restaurant servers are paid a few bucks an hour and make the bulk of their income from tips. Amtrak employees make a good pay and aren't in the same situation. No one expects you to tip on an airplane.

Sleeper attendant gets $5 a night usually and traditional dining car servers usually got $2/$3/$5 for the different meals, but lately the food "service" is not much more than McDonald's and you don't tip there do you?

Now I would rather tip and receive traditional dining car service but it's gone right now.


----------



## MARC Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> What's an appropriate tip for average service in a sleeping car for one night and two night trips?
> Also curious: has any sleeping car attendant refused to bring meals to your room? And if they do, do you tip each time?


Because the service people at Amtrak make a living wage, I don't tip the full 15% (or 18% if adding the tip to a credit card) that I would for even mediocre service by someone on tipped minimum wage who needs the money just to get by. For full-service dining or if the flex dining LSA attempts to provide table service (which I did get on the Cardinal), I'll tip $5 for dinner and $2 for breakfast and lunch. For the cafe car, I generally don't tip, though I might throw in 50 cents or $1 for exceptional service. Flex dining with no table service is treated like the cafe car. The Acela First Class attendant gets $2. The sleeping car attendant gets $5 a night, Acela FC and SCA tip is handed out at the end of a trip. I tip redcaps $5. Best $5 you can ever spend if you have to board at New York Penn Station. I would tip more for exceptional service, but while I've always had good service, I've never had anything so exceptional it would deserve a higher tip (except a few times in the Northeast Regional cafe car). Now, maybe if I were billionaire, I'd be more generous. I've also never had service so bad that I would stiff the service person either.

The payment of a tip is not just the money, but it's the way, in our culture, that we show some appreciation and acknowledgement for the people who perform what are generally considered servile, menial tasks. Some of this reflects the history of our country, where many of these tasks were often done by slaves or the descendants of the freed slaves. Having to provide service to another person is, in some ways, a rather humiliating way to have to make a living, whether it's a unionized job or not. Thus, I personally would like to show some appreciation for the working stiffs who earn their living this way. We can't all be rich entrepreneurs, hotshot professionals with fancy college degrees or yeoman farmers or independent tradespeople, some of us have to do the less pleasant jobs. That''s why, as far as I'm concerned, even mediocre service is better than no service at all, and I'm willing to tip for it.


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## Ferroequinologist

How much do you tip a sleeping car attendant for delivering meals to your room?


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## crescent-zephyr

I usually tip $10 a night and $2-5 per meal in the diner. My only LD trip since the “contemporary dining” I tipped my SCA $20 since she took my orders, brought me dinner, and brought me a couple of beverages. I didn’t tip the LSA for handing me a yogurt.


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## DryCreek

west point said:


> If the Sunset keeps its present days the Eagle will probably match those days otherwise we will know that Amtrak is trying to kill LD service.


I wonder how bad this will disrupt the Heartland Flyer traffic. While not _all_ of its ridership is for connecting to the TE, I would bet that maybe a third of it *could* be?


----------



## NativeSon5859

It all has a rolling effect.

If the Eagle matches the Sunset days, will the connecting trains from the East match the Eagle days out of Chicago?

This is just another reason why 3X weekly is hard to work around.


----------



## MARC Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> How much do you tip a sleeping car attendant for delivering meals to your room?


I've never eaten in my room. I suppose if I did, I would tip the SCA the amount I'd tip the waiter in the dining car. I'd do this even for a flex meal. I'd just include the extra tips in the total amount I give at the end of the trip.


----------



## OBS

cocojacoby said:


> Yeah, that crazy practice of leaving an unwrapped blanket in a plastic bag on your bed really upsets me too. Who the hell thought that one up?
> 
> As far as tips, in a restaurant servers are paid a few bucks an hour and make the bulk of their income from tips. Amtrak employees make a good pay and aren't in the same situation. No one expects you to tip on an airplane.
> 
> Sleeper attendant gets $5 a night usually and traditional dining car servers usually got $2/$3/$5 for the different meals, but lately the food "service" is not much more than McDonald's and you don't tip there do you?
> 
> Now I would rather tip and receive traditional dining car service but it's gone right now.


The blanket procedure was established by corporate several years ago to show/assure the traveler they were getting a freshly washed blanket.


----------



## cocojacoby

OBS said:


> The blanket procedure was established by corporate several years ago to show/assure the traveler they were getting a freshly washed blanket.


I know. Yet they still expect me to put my face on a unwrapped pillow they throw on a seat where everyone before me has put their dirty feet and butts!


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## 20th Century Rider

We're all struggling with service levels... when the sleeping car is empty and the attendant is playing games on the computer; doesn't want to be disturbed, doesn't want to make the coffee, doesn't want to clean the upstairs restroom... I've experienced that. I've also had attendants who are always there to help... even keeping a bowl of candy fully stocked along with magazines by the coffee area. So what should our expectations be? Isn't it reasonable to expect the attendant to care with some degree of enthusiasm???


----------



## OBS

20th Century Rider said:


> We're all struggling with service levels... when the sleeping car is empty and the attendant is playing games on the computer; doesn't want to be disturbed, doesn't want to make the coffee, doesn't want to clean the upstairs restroom... I've experienced that. I've also had attendants who are always there to help... even keeping a bowl of candy fully stocked along with magazines by the coffee area. So what should our expectations be? Isn't it reasonable to expect the attendant to care with some degree of enthusiasm???


Absolutely...and to help get there, report, report, report the underperforming attendants to Amtrak so they can document and build disciplinary files against the poor performers.


----------



## Qapla

20th Century Rider said:


> doesn't want to clean the upstairs restroom



Maybe that is why some of them disappear on the Silvers ... they are looking for those upstairs restrooms


----------



## tim49424

Per Amtrak's website, the Pere Marquette is scheduled to return on Monday, June 29 (eastbound only). Full service to start back up a week from today (6/30)!


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## tricia

OBS said:


> Absolutely...and to help get there, report, report, report the underperforming attendants to Amtrak so they can document and build disciplinary files against the poor performers.



Also report staff who ARE doing their jobs well. They appreciate it, and it makes clearer to management that the problem isn't with EVERY staff member.


----------



## Crowbar_k

If these changes go into effect, I wonder if extra state supported trains will be added where they overlap on days the long distance trains don't run to fill the gaps in service.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Crowbar_k said:


> If these changes go into effect, I wonder if extra state supported trains will be added where they overlap on days the long distance trains don't run to fill the gaps in service.


They certainly could, however, state budgets are going to be very stressed over the next couple of years, so they may be very careful and stingy. I think it's going to be to the point of education or trains or healthcare or....


----------



## Dakota 400

tricia said:


> Also report staff who ARE doing their jobs well. They appreciate it, and it makes clearer to management that the problem isn't with EVERY staff member.



I want to emphasize how important this is. I wrote a snail mail letter to Customer Relations after my January Auto Train with complimentary comments about my SCA and the SA in the Lounge Car. I had names as well as my date of travel so that the individuals could be easily identified by Amtrak. I received a very nice thank you response from Amtrak and assured me that their Supervisors would be notified and asked to give them proper recognition.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tricia said:


> Also report staff who ARE doing their jobs well. They appreciate it, and it makes clearer to management that the problem isn't with EVERY staff member.


Absolutely! I make it a point to write a complimentary letter and provide a good tip to the service personnel who are doing their jobs well. This ENCOURAGES the kind of service we want to see!


----------



## uncleboots

I just purchased a ticket from LA to Portland October 1 and Portland to Chicago October 3.I was told there maybe a disruption in service. They showed trains running the day before and the day after. I have no clue what’s going on with the 3 days a week long distance train service October 1.


----------



## Hans627

Dakota 400 said:


> I want to emphasize how important this is. I wrote a snail mail letter to Customer Relations after my January Auto Train with complimentary comments about my SCA and the SA in the Lounge Car. I had names as well as my date of travel so that the individuals could be easily identified by Amtrak. I received a very nice thank you response from Amtrak and assured me that their Supervisors would be notified and asked to give them proper recognition.


I’m currently on the Silver Meteor and been having great service. Where do I get the address to write a letter of commendation.


----------



## tricia

Hans627 said:


> I’m currently on the Silver Meteor and been having great service. Where do I get the address to write a letter of commendation.



Ask one of the on-board staff. They used to carry business cards with that info.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

uncleboots said:


> I just purchased a ticket from LA to Portland October 1 and Portland to Chicago October 3.I was told there maybe a disruption in service. They showed trains running the day before and the day after. I have no clue what’s going on with the 3 days a week long distance train service October 1.


You are entitled to know the schedule... and although you will be entitled to a refund, customers should be treated better. It seems that they haven't finalized the schedule and are waiting to see what happens with the pandemic. Finally, many many others are in the same situation as you. Wishing you well!


----------



## Hans627

tricia said:


> Ask one of the on-board staff. They used to carry business cards with that info.


Thank you. Just FYI, they no longer carry contact cards. I got her name and will try to find out where to send a letter.


----------



## Palmetto

You can go to the Amtrak website, and acroll to the bottom of the page. Click on "contact us"


----------



## nferr

John Bredin said:


> That would be an argument for slashing service two or three months back when many people couldn't travel, or even possibly now when travel demand is still very low (IIRC, much of California is still under strict shelter-at-home orders) but IMHO not in October when, knock on wood, travel demand will have started recovering.
> 
> Some of the most severe (and IMHO reasonable) slashing of Amtrak corridor service during the strictest stay-at-home orders -- no Acelas, no Hiawathas, no Downeasters, no Keystones or Pennsylvanian -- have been and are being walked back with partial restoration of service. Running daily long-distance trains during that period but then slashing LD service in October becomes even more bizarre in comparison.
> 
> As to running mostly empty trains, transit providers keep lightly-used bus and train runs as a cost of maintaining a scheduled headway (_e.g._ 15 minute buses, or hourly trains) that the riding public expects. They run a half-empty 10am train so that people who usually take the full 8am train can rely that there'll be a train every hour. So potential riders don't have to choose between memorizing gaps in the schedule and conforming their lives to them, or saying f'it it's easier to just drive.
> 
> Same with Amtrak corridor service. I doubt every Acela or Keystone or Hiawatha has the ridership of the busy rush-hour runs, but cutting one lightly-traveled run in hopes of driving passengers to fill the preceding or following run would create a schedule gap that would discourage some passengers from choosing the train altogether.
> 
> Daily LD service is also the same. Nobody planning their travel has to think if today is a train day in their town, or they'll have to wait a day (or two!) to travel, if every day is a train day. Because if they do have to fit their lives to a 3-times-weekly Amtrak schedule, many will say f'it, it's easier to just drive.



And where's Amtrak supposed to get the money to keep running empty trains? They've already gone twice to the Federal govt during the pandemic to get emergency funding. You think the govt is going to keep handing them billions to run daily trains with 10% occupancy?


----------



## Dakota 400

Hans627 said:


> I’m currently on the Silver Meteor and been having great service. Where do I get the address to write a letter of commendation.



Amtrak
Customer Relations
Washington Union Station
60 Massachusetts Avenue, N. E.
Washington, D. C. 20002


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

nferr said:


> And where's Amtrak supposed to get the money to keep running empty trains? They've already gone twice to the Federal govt during the pandemic to get emergency funding. You think the govt is going to keep handing them billions to run daily trains with 10% occupancy?


Ridership on LD trains only decreased by 70% and is already recovering. Reducing from daily to tri-weekly service in the past has shown little to no savings; it may even increase losses. I wouldn't be at all happy about it but from a financial perspective it would make more sense to cut a few routes entirely and continue running the rest daily. 

However, I wouldn't be surprised if this is intended to be another threat to get the government to increase funding. That would explain the earlier cuts to the SM and SS (it shows they are serious), while holding off on even updated the reservation system or announcing schedules for trains affected by the October 1st cuts.


----------



## Willbridge

Palmland said:


> Perhaps Amtrak is hedging their bets. Maybe they want to see how strong bookings are before reducing service and changing reservations to a reduced frequency schedule. Or, more likely, it could just be one hand not knowing what the other is doing.


Greyhound was having this problem before the Pandemic hit. Their reservation computer would differ from the on-line timetables and service change bulletins sometimes missed big changes. Having given time in my career to stamping out problems like this, I learned that either the software needs to learn to communicate or the oft-derided middle managers need to learn to communicate. AND, horrors!, there need to be enough people to do either of those functions (I.T. and/or mid-level managers).


----------



## Willbridge

NativeSon5859 said:


> It all has a rolling effect.
> 
> If the Eagle matches the Sunset days, will the connecting trains from the East match the Eagle days out of Chicago?
> 
> This is just another reason why 3X weekly is hard to work around.


The past Amtrak experiences with try-weakly service included changes in operating dates after the launch, as complaints and suggestions rolled in. 3x or 4x connections can work if it's with a daily train, but it's hard to make something like the_ Coast Starlight_ work with more than just the _Sunset._


----------



## Willbridge

Metra Electric Rider said:


> They certainly could, however, state budgets are going to be very stressed over the next couple of years, so they may be very careful and stingy. I think it's going to be to the point of education or trains or healthcare or....


Yes, and each state has its own type/s of funding. The Amtrak cutback proposal has a reduction that assumes some state trains getting the axe.


----------



## Hans627

Dakota 400 said:


> Amtrak
> Customer Relations
> Washington Union Station
> 60 Massachusetts Avenue, N. E.
> Washington, D. C. 20002


Thank you!


----------



## Hans627

How does the proposed service cuts effect the Silver's? Are they considered long distance trains?


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Hans627 said:


> How does the proposed service cuts effect the Silver's? Are they considered long distance trains?


The SS is running three days per week and the SM is running the other four.


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## niemi24s

Hans627 said:


> Are they considered long distance trains?


Yes, both Silvers are considered long distance trains. The shortest of them (the Silver Meteor) is longer than eight other long distance trains. I'm told the route length must be 750 miles (1200 km) to qualify for the long distance category.

Route miles for all the long distance trains are posted in blue to the chart in Post #4 of this thread: Long Distance Train Coach & Sleeper Fares (Buckets)


----------



## Palmetto

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> The SS is running three days per week and the SM is running the other four.




Effective July 6, not October 1.


----------



## Barb Stout

Willbridge said:


> The past Amtrak experiences with try-weakly service included changes in operating dates after the launch, as complaints and suggestions rolled in. 3x or 4x connections can work if it's with a daily train, but it's hard to make something like the_ Coast Starlight_ work with more than just the _Sunset._


Laugh icon for "try-weakly".


----------



## Skyline

Hans627 said:


> Thank you. Just FYI, they no longer carry contact cards. I got her name and will try to find out where to send a letter.



Are they not permitted to hand out cards, or does Amtrak simply not supply those cards to OBS staff any longer? 

If I was OBS, I would gladly pay for my own cards. They would come in handy for multiple situations, and might prove to be very cost-efficient if you know what I mean.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

This is a very effective way to kill off LD travel completely, because there is no way to plan a trip.

Not knowing what day a train will arrive in a certain city, you can’t make hotel reservations because you don’t know what night you will be there.

If you need to connect to another train, it’s impossible to know when that train will run.

Who is going to waste money booking a hotel for three or four nights just to make sure they are there the day the one train comes in and the day the next one leaves?

Most people will fly or drive instead. Those of us who only travel by train will just be grateful for the memories of past travel and stay home and maybe finally get around to learning how to cook and garden.


----------



## me_little_me

Dakota 400 said:


> Amtrak
> Customer Relations
> Washington Union Station
> 60 Massachusetts Avenue, N. E.
> Washington, D. C. 20002


Or just use Recognize an Excellent Employee - Send Some Praise

They responded with the note about sending it on to the employee's supervisor when I last sent one.


----------



## jruff001

nferr said:


> And where's Amtrak supposed to get the money to keep running empty trains? They've already gone twice to the Federal govt during the pandemic to get emergency funding. You think the govt is going to keep handing them billions to run daily trains with 10% occupancy?


Finally! Someone who gets it! Unlike most posters here.


----------



## jruff001

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Ridership on LD trains only decreased by 70% and is already recovering. Reducing from daily to tri-weekly service in the past has shown little to no savings; it may even increase losses. I wouldn't be at all happy about it but from a financial perspective it would make more sense to cut a few routes entirely and continue running the rest daily.


Right now in the passenger transport industry (which includes airlines) it is all about short-term cash flow to pay the bills, not long-term strategy.

I think we all know that cutting frequency also cuts revenue even more and vice versa with increasing frequency ("double the frequency, triple the revenue"), and obviously running trains 3x/wk instead of daily leads to huge net inefficiencies with crew scheduling. 

But if the overall effect of these changes leads to a slower cash bleed, that is what it is all about and is what they need to do right now, unless Congress wants to pony up.


----------



## jruff001

NativeSon5859 said:


> I just got off the Crescent this morning in WAS. The cuts are happening. SA (who’s in the top 100 in seniority in the whole OBS division) told me some new higher up was recently on the train and talking to the employees about the upcoming reductions. He said he kept on calling them (the employees) “commodities”. Anyway, just passing on what I heard.


I call BS. (Not to you, NativeSon5859 - I believe an SA told you that.)

I really doubt a "higher up" referred to front-line employees as "commodities" right to a front-line employee. I would love to hear this "higher up" employee's side of the story.

(And if the higher-up really _did_ refer to front-line employees as "commodities" right to their faces without any understandable context, s/he should be fired.)


----------



## Dakota 400

me_little_me said:


> Or just use Recognize an Excellent Employee - Send Some Praise
> 
> They responded with the note about sending it on to the employee's supervisor when I last sent one.



I did not realize that such a link on Amtrak's web site existed. Thanks for informing me (and maybe others?).


----------



## Qapla

In our area the city busses are operated by the city. They offer huge discounts to students so they don't actually make money. They often ran space occupancy even before the virus at certain times of the day. With the virus, the ridership is very low.

That has not stopped the City from running the busses! Since the are "funded" they never looked at them as a "profit making enterprise" so, even if ridership is lower than usual, their "losses" are no greater now than they were before - since they don't have "losses" ... they are funded!

Amtrak should be funded the same as the city busses are here. If the funding covered their operation it wouldn't matter if they were had low ridership during recovery ... it doesn't cost any more to run them nearly empty as it does to run them completely full - if you are not trying to "make a profit" and you fund the operating cost the trains could continue to run just like the busses are here.


----------



## west point

actually running them completely full will cost some what more.


----------



## toddinde

Michigan Mom said:


> God I hope you are right


Don’t get me started on the NEC market share argument. If 5,000 people board annually in a city of 10,000 that’s market share through the roof. No city in the NEC can match that. Amtrak might have 100% of the intercity public transportation ridership there, and generate far more economic activity as a percentage in that community. The NEC has its place, and I’m not proposing to cut it back to only three days per week, but the rest of the country deserves rail service as well.


----------



## DryCreek

Qapla said:


> Amtrak should be funded the same as the city busses are here. If the funding covered their operation it wouldn't matter if they were had low ridership during recovery ... it doesn't cost any more to run them nearly empty as it does to run them completely full - if you are not trying to "make a profit" and you fund the operating cost the trains could continue to run just like the busses are here.


A classic case of government inefficiency. While not trying to make a profit makes sense, running a transportation service without looking at efficiency modeling is a waste of taxpayers money. Running under-capacity at the same scheduling just because the money has already been appropriated and needs to be spent is a prime example of why some folks feel the government is incapable of providing _any_ service in a cost-efficient and practical manner.
While I'm not for the idea, I almost can see the point of some who insist that maybe complete privatization of Amtrak would be the best solution. Let it stand on its own, allow more flexibility for negotiating labor rates, allow free enterprise to decide exactly which routes make money. If a route doesn't see enough ridership to justify continued operation, then seek subsidies or grants if the region *must* be served. Or, allow those routes to be government operated at the same level of efficiency as the local transportation authorities.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

DryCreek said:


> A classic case of government inefficiency. While not trying to make a profit makes sense, running a transportation service without looking at efficiency modeling is a waste of taxpayers money. Running under-capacity at the same scheduling just because the money has already been appropriated and needs to be spent is a prime example of why some folks feel the government is incapable of providing _any_ service in a cost-efficient and practical manner.
> While I'm not for the idea, I almost can see the point of some who insist that maybe complete privatization of Amtrak would be the best solution. Let it stand on its own, allow more flexibility for negotiating labor rates, allow free enterprise to decide exactly which routes make money. If a route doesn't see enough ridership to justify continued operation, then seek subsidies or grants if the region *must* be served. Or, allow those routes to be government operated at the same level of efficiency as the local transportation authorities.


Well said, although the fact that roadbeds and tracks are extremely limited, expensive, and difficult to maintain, passenger rail is a complex issue to tackle. I do have hope that a possible new administration will energize our hopes for high speed rail.


----------



## sttom

DryCreek said:


> A classic case of government inefficiency. While not trying to make a profit makes sense, running a transportation service without looking at efficiency modeling is a waste of taxpayers money. Running under-capacity at the same scheduling just because the money has already been appropriated and needs to be spent is a prime example of why some folks feel the government is incapable of providing _any_ service in a cost-efficient and practical manner.
> While I'm not for the idea, I almost can see the point of some who insist that maybe complete privatization of Amtrak would be the best solution. Let it stand on its own, allow more flexibility for negotiating labor rates, allow free enterprise to decide exactly which routes make money. If a route doesn't see enough ridership to justify continued operation, then seek subsidies or grants if the region *must* be served. Or, allow those routes to be government operated at the same level of efficiency as the local transportation authorities.


The problem with privatization is that no one really wants to run what Amtrak has to. And that is the rub, private industry gave up on passenger trains so they got the government to take it off their hands. And with how small the rail industry is in this country, leaving "private enterprise" to fend for itself will lead to higher capital costs because there won't be economies of scale. Even in the UK, the paragon of rail privatization, none of the "private" operators have the same purchasing power that British Rail had when it existed. And to top it off, most of the "private" operators are the state owned companies from the rest of Europe.

As for cost efficiencies, what has private transportation options really gotten us? Paying to check luggage when it was already in the price of a ticket? Shrinking leg room? Getting rid of food? Abandoning services to counties with millions of people in it? That is what the airlines have done over the years. Express bus companies have proliferated in the last 10 years or so, but they travel from city center to city center ignoring the surrounding suburbs. Its been mentioned many times on here that Greyhound has been axing service to rural areas and smaller suburbs for years.

My point is, private industry only wants what makes them money, not what is in the public interest. And its not in the public interest to be sitting in hours of traffic because some auditor decided that your local Greyhound stop outside the 7-11 wasn't worth keeping around. Lifeline service is always something that is going to be kicked off onto the government because no one wants to deal with it. And outside of the NEC, Amtrak is a life line service for most of its passengers! Whatever deal sweeteners we could give European state owned railways to operate Amtrak lines, we could put less into Amtrak and have a better service so long as that is paired with firing the Board and replacing them. If you want to talk corruption, why should real estate investors be allowed to control publicly owned resources that they can sell for their own benefit?


----------



## Willbridge

jruff001 said:


> Right now in the passenger transport industry (which includes airlines) it is all about short-term cash flow to pay the bills, not long-term strategy.
> 
> I think we all know that cutting frequency also cuts revenue even more and vice versa with increasing frequency ("double the frequency, triple the revenue"), and obviously running trains 3x/wk instead of daily leads to huge net inefficiencies with crew scheduling.
> 
> But if the overall effect of these changes leads to a slower cash bleed, that is what it is all about and is what they need to do right now, unless Congress wants to pony up.



A detailed analysis of the _Empire Builder _shows that the change may net no savings. If I can't find it posted here, I'll do it in a separate posting so it can be moved if it is covered elsewhere.

I've also found in my files that the last time they pulled this Congress voted enough extra money to get past the 1996 election and then the plug was pulled on the _Desert Wind _and _Pioneer. _Ridership on those trains fell almost exactly the same percentage as service was cut.


----------



## Willbridge

DryCreek said:


> A classic case of government inefficiency. While not trying to make a profit makes sense, running a transportation service without looking at efficiency modeling is a waste of taxpayers money. Running under-capacity at the same scheduling just because the money has already been appropriated and needs to be spent is a prime example of why some folks feel the government is incapable of providing _any_ service in a cost-efficient and practical manner.
> While I'm not for the idea, I almost can see the point of some who insist that maybe complete privatization of Amtrak would be the best solution. Let it stand on its own, allow more flexibility for negotiating labor rates, allow free enterprise to decide exactly which routes make money. If a route doesn't see enough ridership to justify continued operation, then seek subsidies or grants if the region *must* be served. Or, allow those routes to be government operated at the same level of efficiency as the local transportation authorities.



The problem with complete privatization is whether any of the new operators, likely to be European national carriers, would ever get phone calls returned from Omaha. And in fact, European private operators are in dire straights right now.


----------



## Willbridge

Here's the cover memo from a man who has made a living running rail tours and is himself widely respected in the industry:

Mark Meyer, an RPA At Large Council Representative today, in his professional life spent his career working in the rail industry (BNSF and its predecessors), primarily handling duties such as crew 
assignments, locomotive utilization, and rolling stock assignments. He has authorized me to share this with you as well as on other forums, and I thought you could very effectively understand it. It's a true read, but worth the time! His contacts are at the end of the report. Obviously it is essential he be credited for this work.

Mark got the actual days of the week details of Amtrak's tri-weekly service plan for the EMPIRE BUILDER and looks in detail at the incredible difficulties it will trigger in terms of crew utilization in
particular. This is an exceptional piece of work.

Mark's genuinely informed analysis of crew assignments and forced layovers should convince any competent manager that this tri-weekly option simply does not work-- but we know how many of them there were in Amtrak senior leadership when they "made this decision" in the first place!

To reinforce the "laws of unintended consequences" that this sort of action triggers, let me offer a bit of 1990's era Mercer-cuts history worth sharing from my personal business experience:

The Mercer cuts had the CZ effectively running daily CHI/SLC and then four days a week to SFO and three (as the DESERT WIND) to LAX. My company, Rail Travel Center, had several tours booked that season on segments using both trains west of SLC that required rebooking. It wasn't just the train that was an issue. If we were supposed to get off in Reno on Thursday and suddenly the train was actually arriving now on Saturday, EVERY tour component--hotels--motor coach for off-train--sightseeing--meals--etc had to be redone. Ok, bad enough!

But then Amtrak realized they were in a crew rotation problem similar to what Mark outlined. Crew layovers were too long. They changed operating days again!

We had to reboot everything a second time. This wasn't just annoying. We lost clients who might accept one change to their vacation dates--but not two! We lost deposits in some cases. We had to revise some promised tour sightseeing components--because we could be planning to ride a
tourist railroad--as an example--on Sunday, but now would arrive on Monday, when they did not run. This meant degrading promised vacation content. Not a good way to please customers. Rarely could we set up economically a charter train on a no service day--although a few times we did at a real loss to keep clients loyal to us.

Obviously this did more harm to a tour company than an individual--but faced with this kind of chaos many (most?) passengers would just dump Amtrak and drive or do a fly--drive vacation on the days they wanted.

Also it is worth noting that Amtrak's other option to move crews home is to fly, bus (unlikely given the bus industry cuts), taxi or deadhead the crew back. On the idiotic SILVER METEOR four days per week schedule starting next week perhaps a Thursday Jacksonville-Florence crew could deadhead back on the AUTO TRAIN, but on SILVER STAR days a long tax/limo ride is going to be essential, or Amtrak will be paying for four hotel nights out (of course this won't happen--it's taxi/limo for sure--not cheap) at least for crews on the last day of each three day cycle.

This plan is meant to fail.

_Carl H. Fowler_
Emeritus Past Vice Chair: Rail Passengers Association
President: CHF Rail Consulting LLC
Member: Vermont Rail Advisory Council

(All opinions expressed are my own)


----------



## tricia

Willbridge said:


> Here's the cover memo from a man who has made a living running rail tours and is himself widely respected in the industry:
> 
> Mark Meyer, an RPA At Large Council Representative today, in his professional life spent his career working in the rail industry (BNSF and its predecessors), primarily handling duties such as crew
> assignments, locomotive utilization, and rolling stock assignments. He has authorized me to share this with you as well as on other forums, and I thought you could very effectively understand it. It's a true read, but worth the time! His contacts are at the end of the report. Obviously it is essential he be credited for this work.
> 
> Mark got the actual days of the week details of Amtrak's tri-weekly service plan for the EMPIRE BUILDER and looks in detail at the incredible difficulties it will trigger in terms of crew utilization in
> particular. This is an exceptional piece of work.
> 
> Mark's genuinely informed analysis of crew assignments and forced layovers should convince any competent manager that this tri-weekly option simply does not work-- but we know how many of them there were in Amtrak senior leadership when they "made this decision" in the first place!
> 
> To reinforce the "laws of unintended consequences" that this sort of action triggers, let me offer a bit of 1990's era Mercer-cuts history worth sharing from my personal business experience:
> 
> The Mercer cuts had the CZ effectively running daily CHI/SLC and then four days a week to SFO and three (as the DESERT WIND) to LAX. My company, Rail Travel Center, had several tours booked that season on segments using both trains west of SLC that required rebooking. It wasn't just the train that was an issue. If we were supposed to get off in Reno on Thursday and suddenly the train was actually arriving now on Saturday, EVERY tour component--hotels--motor coach for off-train--sightseeing--meals--etc had to be redone. Ok, bad enough!
> 
> But then Amtrak realized they were in a crew rotation problem similar to what Mark outlined. Crew layovers were too long. They changed operating days again!
> 
> We had to reboot everything a second time. This wasn't just annoying. We lost clients who might accept one change to their vacation dates--but not two! We lost deposits in some cases. We had to revise some promised tour sightseeing components--because we could be planning to ride a
> tourist railroad--as an example--on Sunday, but now would arrive on Monday, when they did not run. This meant degrading promised vacation content. Not a good way to please customers. Rarely could we set up economically a charter train on a no service day--although a few times we did at a real loss to keep clients loyal to us.
> 
> Obviously this did more harm to a tour company than an individual--but faced with this kind of chaos many (most?) passengers would just dump Amtrak and drive or do a fly--drive vacation on the days they wanted.
> 
> Also it is worth noting that Amtrak's other option to move crews home is to fly, bus (unlikely given the bus industry cuts), taxi or deadhead the crew back. On the idiotic SILVER METEOR four days per week schedule starting next week perhaps a Thursday Jacksonville-Florence crew could deadhead back on the AUTO TRAIN, but on SILVER STAR days a long tax/limo ride is going to be essential, or Amtrak will be paying for four hotel nights out (of course this won't happen--it's taxi/limo for sure--not cheap) at least for crews on the last day of each three day cycle.
> 
> This plan is meant to fail.
> 
> _Carl H. Fowler_
> Emeritus Past Vice Chair: Rail Passengers Association
> President: CHF Rail Consulting LLC
> Member: Vermont Rail Advisory Council
> 
> (All opinions expressed are my own)



Wow. Thoughtful and very detailed. Consider just this bit, backed up by thorough analysis in the letter: "It’s very likely that the increased cost of deadheading crews over multiple crew districts could actually exceed the cost of daily operation." And that's in addition to all the other costs and areas where the percentage of savings gained by cutting frequency is considerably smaller than the percentage of trains lost. 

Thanks for posting this.


----------



## railiner

Very impressive response to Amtrak's "plan"...thanks from me too, for posting.
All I can say is let's hope that this statement is true, and if so, successful: {quote}" (And yes, I have considered this to be ploy by Amtrak to receive the additional funding as to not need to implement such a Draconian plan.)"


----------



## nferr

Qapla said:


> In our area the city busses are operated by the city. They offer huge discounts to students so they don't actually make money. They often ran space occupancy even before the virus at certain times of the day. With the virus, the ridership is very low.
> 
> That has not stopped the City from running the busses! Since the are "funded" they never looked at them as a "profit making enterprise" so, even if ridership is lower than usual, their "losses" are no greater now than they were before - since they don't have "losses" ... they are funded!
> 
> Amtrak should be funded the same as the city busses are here. If the funding covered their operation it wouldn't matter if they were had low ridership during recovery ... it doesn't cost any more to run them nearly empty as it does to run them completely full - if you are not trying to "make a profit" and you fund the operating cost the trains could continue to run just like the busses are here.



Except Amtrak is not funded that way. Most of their operating funds come from ticket sales. The Federal government gives then an amount set every year during the budget process. It's not an unlimited amount to cover an unlimited amount of shortfall. They have to live with the amount the government has allocated and their own revenues.


----------



## Qapla

nferr said:


> Except Amtrak is not funded that way. Most of their operating funds come from ticket sales.



I know they are not funded that way - that was my point .. they could/should be.

Amtrak has been running long enough that they should have a pretty good idea of what it costs annually to run and that amount should be set aside/budgeted. There would be no "shortfall" if they were fully funded. When was the last time they complained that the Navy had a shortfall?

Additionally, ticket revenue could be used to improve Amtrak to help reduce future needs.

Instead of viewing Amtrak as a "profit business" that needs "help" because they cannot make it on ticket sales alone ... they need to change that to viewing Amtrak the same way they view Air Traffic Control, Homeland Security, and other services and fully fund them.

In other words, if the Gov't is going to own them - they should "OWN" them and fully fund them ... if they want it to be a business, they need to sell it to real business people (hard to do when there are not really any business that want that debt and risk)


----------



## Crowbar_k

If this goes into effect, I wonder if service will be supplemented on the Lincoln Service. Honestly, that would probably be an improvement.


----------



## uncleboots

20th Century Rider said:


> You are entitled to know the schedule... and although you will be entitled to a refund, customers should be treated better. It seems that they haven't finalized the schedule and are waiting to see what happens with the pandemic. Finally, many many others are in the same situation as you. Wishing you well!
> [/QUOTE Thanks 20th Century Rider for your reply.


----------



## Willbridge

From a reliable source, the cutback continues.

Rick Peterson, manager of the Amtrak California Thruway service, retires July 24. Part of a buyout of 510 employees nationwide. Amtrak Oakland operation center will oversee the program for the state.

Orange Belt bus line, an oldie operator in Central California, will close up shop. Doing business has gotten too expensive. [Orange Belt is a holdover from regulated days.]

_And on August 1, Thruway makes many changes. Due to reduced funding from the State of California.

In the south its all gone, except Los Angeles, Ontario-San Bernardino and Riverside.

No Santa Barbara, No Torrance, no Long Beach, No Las Vegas, No Victorville/Lancaster, no Indio/Palm Springs, no Hemet.

In the north, reduction in schedules, think the only route cut is Stockton -Oakland.

Subject to changes with hardly any notice._

[The Las Vegas reference is to the Las Vegas -- Los Angeles link. The Las Vegas -- Kingman link with the _SW Chief_ still shows in the reservation system, run by an independent operator.]


----------



## daybeers

***!


----------



## Willbridge

It seems that any time someone looks at the economics, they keep coming to the same conclusion...









Second in a Series: Cutting Service Actually Costs More - Railway Age


This year, Americans held what may have been the most subdued observance of the Fourth of July in the nation’s history. There were few parades, town celebrations or fireworks displays in recognition of the nation’s birthday. In short, there were essentially no parties or events, so few people...




www.railwayage.com


----------



## Crowbar_k

I can't stand David Peter Alan. He is so out of touch and thinks that there is this grand conspiring to eliminate the long distance routes for no reason, which does not make any sense when you start to think about it. I do not necessarily agree with Amtrak's plan to cut the long distance routes but I still can't stand him.


----------



## dogbert617

Willbridge said:


> From a reliable source, the cutback continues.
> 
> Rick Peterson, manager of the Amtrak California Thruway service, retires July 24. Part of a buyout of 510 employees nationwide. Amtrak Oakland operation center will oversee the program for the state.
> 
> Orange Belt bus line, an oldie operator in Central California, will close up shop. Doing business has gotten too expensive. [Orange Belt is a holdover from regulated days.]
> 
> _And on August 1, Thruway makes many changes. Due to reduced funding from the State of California.
> 
> In the south its all gone, except Los Angeles, Ontario-San Bernardino and Riverside.
> 
> No Santa Barbara, No Torrance, no Long Beach, No Las Vegas, No Victorville/Lancaster, no Indio/Palm Springs, no Hemet.
> 
> In the north, reduction in schedules, think the only route cut is Stockton -Oakland.
> 
> Subject to changes with hardly any notice._
> 
> [The Las Vegas reference is to the Las Vegas -- Los Angeles link. The Las Vegas -- Kingman link with the _SW Chief_ still shows in the reservation system, run by an independent operator.]



So Bakersfield-LA buses will still run, to bridge the gap in train service between those 2 places? If that bus didn't run, I'd be really surprised. Too bad Amtrak probably won't get approval anytime soon, to run trains through the Techaciapi(sp?) Loop.

And that's a heck of a letter that was written there, to show how really bad that less than daily service would end up being on the Empire Builder. I can only imagine the less than daily service that was just implemented on Silver Star in early July, will only really annoy riders in the Carolinas, Lakeland and Tampa, and Okeechobee. Granted there is a slightly less impact in Lakeland and Tampa, since Amtrak just instituted bus service between those 2 places and Orlando(to connect to Silver Meteor) that runs, on the days Silver Star doesn't run. But I really think cutting any service is terrible, since I greatly worry once it's cut, it'll probably be very hard to see service come back for a long time if ever. And as we all know service was cut that used to go into places like Ocala, FL and Waldo, FL(which was the Amtrak train that used to go through those communities? and has been replaced by bus service), and of course there's the issue of Sunset no longer running east of New Orleans. Even though a regional train will soon start to Mobile, service should fully be restored on this route east to Jacksonville and Orlando for sure!



Crowbar_k said:


> If this goes into effect, I wonder if service will be supplemented on the Lincoln Service. Honestly, that would probably be an improvement.



I'm nervous it won't, since as it is all regional Amtrak Midwest trains with several trains a day(Lincoln Service, Illini/Saluki, IL Zephyr/Carl Sandburg, Wolverine, Hiawatha) are still running at reduced levels. Honestly, I don't even want to see this reduction to 3 days a week service occur, which really will hurt ridership a lot! And I remain convinced if 7 days a week service existed for the Cardinal instead of 3 days a week service, that perhaps the staffing at Cincinnati probably wouldn't have been cut.


----------



## tricia

Willbridge said:


> It seems that any time someone looks at the economics, they keep coming to the same conclusion...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second in a Series: Cutting Service Actually Costs More - Railway Age
> 
> 
> This year, Americans held what may have been the most subdued observance of the Fourth of July in the nation’s history. There were few parades, town celebrations or fireworks displays in recognition of the nation’s birthday. In short, there were essentially no parties or events, so few people...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.railwayage.com



Thanks for posting. Well worth a read not just for its detailed analysis about how cutting freqency loses rather than saves money, but also for related points--such as Amtrak's removal of schedules from its website suppressing demand, and much more.


----------



## bms

dogbert617 said:


> But I really think cutting any service is terrible, since I greatly worry once it's cut, it'll probably be very hard to see service come back for a long time if ever. And as we all know service was cut that used to go into places like Ocala, FL and Waldo, FL(which was the Amtrak train that used to go through those communities? and has been replaced by bus service), and of course there's the issue of Sunset no longer running east of New Orleans. Even though a regional train will soon start to Mobile, service should fully be restored on this route east to Jacksonville and Orlando for sure!



Well said. Because of the Sunset Limited, I do not trust that the cuts are really temporary. It would be one thing if Amtrak just came up with the idea this year, but Amtrak had been trying to cut dining car meals and long distance service for a few years before the virus existed.


----------



## Qapla

Many of the businesses that are able to continue operation during this critical time have developed new and innovative ways to operate and entice customers. These innovative ideas usually do NOT include cutting their mainstay service ... just an alternative way of doing it - even if it means using more people to do the same job - thus resulting with a smaller profit % while generating more business, which, in turn, generated greater profits.

Amtrak's mainstay is providing daily service. Reducing that portion of their business is NOT the way to increase profits!


----------



## Exvalley

Qapla said:


> Amtrak's mainstay is providing daily service. Reducing that portion of their business is NOT the way to increase profits!


I appreciate your sentiment, but look at the airlines. They have absolutely slashed capacity, which often results in lengthy connections. Thanks to a resurgence of Covid-19, especially in the south, the airlines are eliminating many of the flights that they were going to add in August and September. This isn't about increasing profits. This is about survival. 

We all obviously hope that the government continues to support Amtrak in a way that will result in continued daily operations. But the market is what it is. People don't want to travel. It's just that simple. Even if Amtrak could innovate and convince people that riding on Amtrak is 100% safe, people still aren't ready for the destination itself.


----------



## bms

Exvalley said:


> I appreciate your sentiment, but look at the airlines. They have absolutely slashed capacity, which often results in lengthy connections. Thanks to a resurgence of Covid-19, especially in the south, the airlines are eliminating many of the flights that they were going to add in August and September. This isn't about increasing profits. This is about survival.
> 
> We all obviously hope that the government continues to support Amtrak in a way that will result in continued daily operations. But the market is what it is. People don't want to travel. It's just that simple. Even if Amtrak could innovate and convince people that riding on Amtrak is 100% safe, people still aren't ready for the destination itself.



Two of the three trains I rode last week were sold out (albeit with plenty of seats empty due to single travelers being guaranteed two seats). With the economy opening, plenty of people need to travel and don't feel safe on a plane right now. Trains provide by far the best social distancing compared to planes or buses. If Amtrak would just keep the same service, this is a great opportunity to attract new riders and increase its market share.


----------



## Exvalley

bms said:


> Trains provide by far the best social distancing compared to planes or buses.


In a sleeper, most likely. In coach? Well... the advantage is not as clear - especially if Amtrak is, as you say, filling all of the seats they are offering for sale. The seat next to you may be unoccupied, but there are still people within six feet.

Aircraft air is completely refreshed, on average, every three minutes. Except for some regional jets, airplanes have HEPA filters. Additionally, cabins are divided into separate ventilation sections about every seven rows of seats, which means that you share air only with those those in your immediate environment and not with someone ten rows back. When the plane is on the ground, however, air circulation in the cabin can be greatly reduced. You also have to be in the airport terminal longer than you have to be at a train station thanks to TSA and check-in times. 

I've actually been hoping to see a scientific analysis of which is safer, at least in coach class. I've seen a couple of articles that try to address the issue, but nothing coming close to a deep dive.


----------



## west point

Exvalley said:


> Aircraft air is completely refreshed, on average, every three minutes. Except for some regional jets, airplanes have HEPA filters. Additionally, cabins are divided into separate ventilation sections about every seven rows of seats, which means that you share air only with those those in your immediate environment and not with someone ten rows back. When the plane is on the ground, however, air circulation in the cabin can be greatly reduced. You also have to be in the airport terminal longer than you have to be at a train station thanks to TSA and check-in times.



where are you getting this info ? All the aircraft that I am familiar the airplanes do not turn over air very fast. They only exhaust air is thru some small ventilation holes and the outflow valve. That valve helps main cabin altitude. HEPA filters ? No certifications before about 1995 at earliest. Ventilation of Airplanes all exhaust air thru the holes and outflow valve(s) mentioned. So passengers will get all the air sooner or later. Air circulation on ground depends on source. If APU then as in the air. On ground AC unit enters thru port on aircraft thru regular air craft circulation system usually near the AC packs..


----------



## Exvalley

west point said:


> where are you getting this info ?


Here: Airplane air: not as bad as you think

And here: How Clean Is the Air on Planes?

Another factor is the length of time that you are sitting. Are you better taking a three hour flight from Boston to Chicago or a twenty-two hour train ride in coach? I am struggling to see how the latter is safer.

Bottom line: The "safest" option depends on a lot of factors. I don't think it's fair to make a sweeping statement that train travel is safer any more than I think it's fair to say that all air travel is safer. Not every train ride is alike, and not every flight is alike. And not everyone agrees on the level of risk that they are willing to take.

I am flying a 10 seat airplane to Boston on Saturday and taking the subway into town. The plane still has several seats for sale, so I am hoping that it is pretty empty. But I would be lying if I said that I was not very nervous.


----------



## Seaboard92

Exvalley said:


> I appreciate your sentiment, but look at the airlines. They have absolutely slashed capacity, which often results in lengthy connections. Thanks to a resurgence of Covid-19, especially in the south, the airlines are eliminating many of the flights that they were going to add in August and September. This isn't about increasing profits. This is about survival.



Well yes that is true the airlines have slashed capacity and in some cases service to select cities what they are doing is nowhere near comparable to what Amtrak is proposing and is now doing to my home routes. The airlines often times are running multiple frequencies per day between two cities with the exception of a handful of more vanity routes. The AS Flight to CHS or the LH flight to CLT being examples of both. It should be noted that both of those routes are designed around a significant business travel the AS flight deals with Boeing traffic, and the LH route involves BMW traffic. 

For instance from my home airport of Columbia, SC (CAE) the load factor standardly is 83 percent for the CAE-CLT connection flight which operates 7 times per day on average. If American Airlines who is the carrier contracting the various regionals PSA (subsidiary of AA), Republic, Sky West, etc..... to operate that route decides to slash capacity on that route they have to cancel a frequency, so instead of the average of every 2 hour service we drop to twice a day service. That still doesn't equate to what Amtrak did to the Silver Star. 

American could probably preserve that 83 percent load factor by slashing capacity by cutting the frequency to three times daily flights between the two cities and it would still be considered a very usable service. Amtrak cut the 14 Weekly departures down to 6 which is 42 percent of the normal schedule. AA slashed capacity by eliminating two daily flights in each direction or 14 departures a week. Down from 49 departures or 28 percent. Of note the two flights they canceled are the ones that cater mostly to business travel first in the morning, last in the evening making connections to most destinations. 

Which tells me that the business market is the one that isn't doing as well as the leisure market. Looking at the flights for tomorrow in the computer it looks like tomorrows load factor bar any late purchases is around 62 percent which isn't god awful. 

Amtrak in Columbia generally boards/detrains 42 passengers per train per day according to RPA which is almost a full Amfleet II coach, couple that with the other exclusive stops to the Silver Star route and you are filling a single Amfleet II Coach on just those markets. That isn't counting anything from Raleigh north to points south of Savannah. 

So if AA's load factor declined by 21 percent let's just use that for the base line example on Amtrak instead of getting 42 passengers you are now getting 8 less passengers per night per train. I'm basing that on leisure travel making a faster come back than business travel based on the assumption of that is what the AA traffic patterns are showing me. 

So by Amtrak inflicting a completely short sided cut on a strong leisure route they are really selling themselves short. Tri Weekly doesn't have to be god awful for Columbia except they chose to stack all of our service days on weekends which makes absolutely no sense from a passenger service stand point. 

My point is that these cuts Amtrak has made so far are detrimental to the service, and detrimental to the health of Amtrak. 

Now all that being said that is basing large assumptions on one small market that is only serviced in the middle of the night on Amtrak and by regional jets by the big three airlines (except one or two DL Mainline jets). 

I would be happy to look up any AA route to compile it's load factor, and it's normal capacity, and it's current capacity. 

I love Amtrak, I love flying, and above all I love researching the transportation business.


----------



## Willbridge

One important difference is that the airlines' terminal facilities will still be waiting for them to restore services and the traffic control will just come up with whatever is needed to squeeze in more flights (see attached O'Hare scene). When Amtrak wants to increase service it can take months of negotiations with the Class Ones. They start with whatever is currently in effect as being too much and then it's necessary to weed through a bunch of red herrings.


----------



## Willbridge

Crowbar_k said:


> I can't stand David Peter Alan. He is so out of touch and thinks that there is this grand conspiring to eliminate the long distance routes for no reason, which does not make any sense when you start to think about it. I do not necessarily agree with Amtrak's plan to cut the long distance routes but I still can't stand him.


Of course, it's worse when one thinks of the reasons that might explain it.

In my dealings with Amtrak and VIA Rail from the West since 1971 I've frequently run into people in decision-making positions who just did not know a lot about points west of Harrisburg or Sudbury. It was never a complete surprise, because my father worked from home and in the 1960's I heard him more than once on the phone trying to explain Far Corner geography to someone in New York City. Overlay that with serious issues and long-distance trains are at risk, as they have been since the USDOT Railpax plan in 1970.


----------



## west point

Here is a stat that has been ignored and of course may have changed since last published. At present 1.6 million persons have fully recovered in the USA. Of the number at one time it was published that those recovered have 25% suffer with one or more complications. Of that number recovered 5 - 10% have breathing problems due to Covid-19 . If we take the 5% figure that means that at present 325,000 persons are having new aftercvid-19 breathing problems. 

I checked with my GP doctor who is not a lung specialist what he thought about these numbers. He said that he would recommend to breathing problem patients to not fly longer distances. I informed him that airplane cabin altitudes are normally 6 to 8 thousand feet. He said that doubles his feelings. However I did note that shorter flights would end up with cabin altitudes of 3500 to 4000 feet. 
He still felt that it was a risk that those recovering should not fly without supplemental Oxygen. 
He was not aware of the hoops that carrying O2 bottles onboard has with the FAA, and the limitations of number of O2 bottles.

The point is that for persons who could not or would not drive that may become a big untapped passengers demand to travel on present LD Amtrak routes. and even some shorter various city pairs. . Now if a vaccine does not come into wide use until 100M recover the possible passenger demand could swamp Amtrak.
These numbers are really scary when you look at them this way.


----------



## eoin2899

the_traveler said:


> My station (FED) has 2 routes serving it - both of which are “temporarily cancelled”!
> 
> As bad as it is for me not having trains, you can’t even go from Saratoga to Plattsburgh or Schenectady to Rutland. Neither route is running at all.



Are there trains to Montreal from ALB or NYC ??


----------



## Sidney

I don't think so. The border is still closed to non essential travel. Why is there no service to Plattsburgh yet?


----------



## Exvalley

Sidney said:


> I don't think so. The border is still closed to non essential travel. Why is there no service to Plattsburgh yet?


I believe the Adirondack is terminating at Albany. That must be an indication that there is insufficient demand past that point. No doubt the college students in Plattsburgh have long since left. That doesn’t help. You would think that Saratoga, at least in August, would be fairly busy. But perhaps there is nowhere to turn the train around.


----------



## AmtrakFlyer

Federal bailout could stop planned Amtrak cuts in San Antonio


A U.S. House committee has approved $10 billion for Amtrak, a move that would avert...




www.expressnews.com





Some interesting quotes and nuggets that aren’t as positive as the spin on RPA’s hotline. Right when I start to think RPA is fighting a good fight Matthews is quoted as saying Amtrak getting the 10 billion is “ludicrous”. However you want to interpret that quote it’s not one that should come from Amtraks number one ally and it’s a real head scratcher.
I found the following interesting:

“The vote by the appropriations committee was along party lines, with all the Democrats on the committee supporting the $10 billion Amtrak appropriation with Republicans in opposition.“

However, the legislation then would move to the Senate, where heavy opposition in the Republican-controlled chamber is considered almost certain.

“It’s a pie-in-the sky ask. It’s not going to happen,” said William DeCarlo, national vice president and national legislative director for the Transportation Communications Union.” (Poor choice of words by union official too?)


“A $500 million appropriation might be more agreeable to senators, said Jim Matthews, president and CEO of the Washington, D.C.-based Rail Passengers Association

*Matthews said it was “ludicrous” to think that Amtrak would receive the $10 billion *in funding, but added that maintaining daily, long-distance train service is essential.“


----------



## the_traveler

The Adirondack is not running north of Albany at all. As I understand the reason is that with the border closed to all non-essential travel, it can not operate since there is no place to turn the train prior to the border. It will not reopen until late August at the earliest.

The college at Plattsburgh was closed for the summer, but will reopen next month. There is a small airport in Plattsburgh, but other than that the only way to get there is drive.

Although Saratoga Race Track opens today (7/16/20), the entire 8 week run will have no fans in attendance.

And if the Adirondack does resume, the ferry across Lake Champlain between Port Kent and Burlington is not operating. And it may not resume this year. (It only operates until mid-September anyway.)

.............

This is my Post #26,000. Only 2,800+ more posts to go to catch AlanB - I doubt anyone will exceed his post count!


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

the_traveler said:


> The Adirondack is not running north of Albany at all. As I understand the reason is that with the border closed to all non-essential travel, it can not operate since there is no place to turn the train prior to the border. It will not reopen until late August at the earliest.
> 
> The college at Plattsburgh was closed for the summer, but will reopen next month. There is a small airport in Plattsburgh, but other than that the only way to get there is drive.
> 
> Although Saratoga Race Track opens today (7/16/20), the entire 8 week run will have no fans in attendance.
> 
> And if the Adirondack does resume, the ferry across Lake Champlain between Port Kent and Burlington is not operating. And it may not resume this year. (It only operates until mid-September anyway.)
> 
> .............
> 
> This is my Post #26,000. Only 2,800+ more posts to go to catch AlanB - I doubt anyone will exceed his post count!


Currently the earliest date tickets are being sold for service north of Albany is September 1st for the Ethan Allen but not until November 9th for the Adirondack.


----------



## jis

the_traveler said:


> The Adirondack is not running north of Albany at all. As I understand the reason is that with the border closed to all non-essential travel, it can not operate since there is no place to turn the train prior to the border. It will not reopen until late August at the earliest.


The primary reason that the Adirondack is not running to Plattsburgh is that NYSDOT does not want to pay for it.

You don't have to be able to turn a train to run it. Cab Cars have existed for a long time eliminating the need for turning a train. And even if a cab car is not available, there are oodles of unused engines sitting around the Amtrak system and even in the NYSDOT pool that could be used as such.


----------



## Seaboard92

Any Amtrak train is not really that hard to turn in an outlying terminal. All of Amtrak's coach seats are able to be turned, and you just need to run the locomotives around the consist. Not overly complex.


----------



## MARC Rider

west point said:


> I checked with my GP doctor who is not a lung specialist what he thought about these numbers. He said that he would recommend to breathing problem patients to not fly longer distances. I informed him that airplane cabin altitudes are normally 6 to 8 thousand feet. He said that doubles his feelings. However I did note that shorter flights would end up with cabin altitudes of 3500 to 4000 feet.
> He still felt that it was a risk that those recovering should not fly without supplemental Oxygen.
> He was not aware of the hoops that carrying O2 bottles onboard has with the FAA, and the limitations of number of O2 bottles.



I thought that people who need supplemental oxygen use oxygen concentrators on planes, not bottled oxygen. I actually used one once, when I developed acute mountain sickness at a ski resort in Colorado. It was bigger than a CPAP, but I think they now make smaller ones. It worked great and pretty much saved my trip.

This does point out a public benefit for public support of a long-distance rail network -- there is a small, but significant slice of the population that can't fly for medical reasons. Sometimes the medical reasons are such that they can't drive either. Thus, the country needs a basic network of long-distance public surface transportation for such people. I suppose this could be provided by motor coaches on public highways, but it seems that the bus companies have pretty much given up on practical cross-country bus service. Anyway, a minimally acceptable cross-country bus ride for people with serious medical issue would probably require a Vonlane style 23 passenger deluxe motor coach, which isn't really a very efficient way of moving people.


----------



## Palmetto

Seaboard92 said:


> Any Amtrak train is not really that hard to turn in an outlying terminal. All of Amtrak's coach seats are able to be turned, and you just need to run the locomotives around the consist. Not overly complex.



Unless you want to run the engine backwards, you'll need to turn it. Cab cars are the best situation, I think, as on the Vermonter.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Palmetto said:


> Unless you want to run the engine backwards, you'll need to turn it. Cab cars are the best situation, I think, as on the Vermonter.


As was mentioned, there are currently an abundance of locomotives available so they could run with two. There are also locomotives available with cabs on each end such as the ACS-64, although Amtrak doesn't have any diesel locomotives of that design. As to the Vermonter, it no longer uses a cab car as the Palmer reverse move was eliminated with the move to the Connecticut River Line and there is a wye in St. Albans.


----------



## daybeers

Amtrak cab cars are in short supply, but they might have spares for one train.


----------



## me_little_me

Wouldn't a P42 at each end facing away from the train work? Do they have to be adjacent or, like freight engines, can they be remotely controlled even far from the lead engine? Could one provide drive power and the other HEP? If not, what about pulling two deadheads on the first trip, then leaving the lead engines at the destination to be turned around elsewhere before becoming the return lead engines?


----------



## Seaboard92

me_little_me said:


> Wouldn't a P42 at each end facing away from the train work? Do they have to be adjacent or, like freight engines, can they be remotely controlled even far from the lead engine? Could one provide drive power and the other HEP? If not, what about pulling two deadheads on the first trip, then leaving the lead engines at the destination to be turned around elsewhere before becoming the return lead engines?



On that train it would work because all of the Amfleets I believe are equipped with Pass Thru MU


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

me_little_me said:


> Wouldn't a P42 at each end facing away from the train work? Do they have to be adjacent or, like freight engines, can they be remotely controlled even far from the lead engine? Could one provide drive power and the other HEP? If not, what about pulling two deadheads on the first trip, then leaving the lead engines at the destination to be turned around elsewhere before becoming the return lead engines?


Some Midwest corridor routes operate with a locomotive on each end as you describe. It is the standard procedure for the Blue Water and is used sometimes on the Hiawatha instead of one locomotive and one NPCU. When I have been on the Wolverine, depending on the trip it has either had a locomotive on each end or a second locomotive waiting in Pontiac.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Heartland Flyer uses this set up too since the Train cant be turned in OKC.


----------



## Seaboard92

The Downeaster also occasionally will run with a locomotive on each end when a NPCU is down. The Cascades as well. As long as the cars have a pass thru MU any route could do it. The only cars I'm not sure on and maybe someone at Amtrak could tell me that may or may not have them are the Superliners.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Seaboard92 said:


> The Downeaster also occasionally will run with a locomotive on each end when a NPCU is down. The Cascades as well. As long as the cars have a pass thru MU any route could do it. The only cars I'm not sure on and maybe someone at Amtrak could tell me that may or may not have them are the Superliners.



I'm not sure how they do it, but the Surfliners run with Cab-Control and Superliner coaches in the consist.


----------



## Palmetto

Bob Dylan said:


> The Heartland Flyer uses this set up too since the Train cant be turned in OKC.



This is puzzling, as there is a wye south of the station. It's a bit far, but looks usable, looking at it on Google Maps.


----------



## Trogdor

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'm not sure how they do it, but the Surfliners run with Cab-Control and Superliner coaches in the consist.



Some, but not all, Superliners were retrofitted to allow for MU operation.


----------



## TinCan782

Trogdor said:


> Some, but not all, Superliners were retrofitted to allow for MU operation.


Not only Superliner coaches - I've seen the Sightseer Lounge in Pacific Surfliner consists from time-to-time.
Even the Great Dome (when still running) has been Pacific Surfliner trains.

Did not get included in my reply to Trogdor's reply to 
crescent-zephyr said:
I'm not sure how they do it, but the Surfliners run with Cab-Control and Superliner coaches in the consist.


----------



## John Bobinyec

Have the three-day service reductions which were scheduled to commence on 10/1/2020 been rescinded? I think Congress told Amtrak that if they did that they get no money - period. So what's the latest official situation?

jb


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Requesting advice and suggestions from the forum on what I should do with this upcoming reservation... noting uncertainty of frequency levels and food service... and the free cancellation deadline coming up August 31. If you were me, what would you do with this reservation??? 85,000 points

EUG - EMY - H room
overnight
EMY - CHI - H room
CHI - WAS - Bedroom
2 nights WAS
WAS - BOS - Acela 1st class
2 nights BOS
BOS - CHI - H room
CHI - PDX - H room
PDX - EUG - Business class


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

John Bobinyec said:


> Have the three-day service reductions which were scheduled to commence on 10/1/2020 been rescinded? I think Congress told Amtrak that if they did that they get no money - period. So what's the latest official situation?
> 
> jb


It's still unknown whether the cuts will take effect or not. The House passed legislation which would have prevented the cuts but it is stalled in the Senate.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

20th Century Rider said:


> Requesting advice and suggestions from the forum on what I should do with this upcoming reservation... noting uncertainty of frequency levels and food service... and the free cancellation deadline coming up August 31. If you were me, what would you do with this reservation??? 85,000 points
> 
> EUG - EMY - H room
> overnight
> EMY - CHI - H room
> CHI - WAS - Bedroom
> 2 nights WAS
> WAS - BOS - Acela 1st class
> 2 nights BOS
> BOS - CHI - H room
> CHI - PDX - H room
> PDX - EUG - Business class


Have you already booked this or are you thinking about booking it?
If you already booked it, you can cancel after 8/31/20 with no penalty. That date is the "booked by" date, not the "cancel by" date


----------



## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> Have you already booked this or are you thinking about booking it?
> If you already booked it, you can cancel after 8/31/20 with no penalty. That date is the "booked by" date, not the "cancel by" date


Yes... yes, booked and reserved with points. It is my understand I can cancel without penalty up to Aug 31... but the question is whether or not I should keep the reservation active past that date... due to all the uncertainty.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes... yes, booked and reserved with points. It is my understand I can cancel without penalty up to Aug 31... but the question is whether or not I should keep the reservation active past that date... due to all the uncertainty.


If already booked, you can cancel after Aug 31 w/o penalty. That's the BOOK BY date, not the cancel by date. I have a two week trip that I booked early this year for October and I may not cancel it till after August 31, though personal things are in the process of being changed, so I may cancel those trains and rebook on other train and maybe other dates.

Right at the top of Amtrak.com it says: "Amtrak is waiving all change and cancellation fees for *reservations made by *August 31, 2020."


----------



## 20th Century Rider

AmtrakBlue said:


> If already booked, you can cancel after Aug 31 w/o penalty. That's the BOOK BY date, not the cancel by date. I have a two week trip that I booked early this year for October and I may not cancel it till after August 31, though personal things are in the process of being changed, so I may cancel those trains and rebook on other train and maybe other dates.
> 
> Right at the top of Amtrak.com it says: "Amtrak is waiving all change and cancellation fees for *reservations made by *August 31, 2020."


Wow! Thank you!


----------



## TinCan782

AmtrakBlue said:


> If already booked, you can cancel after Aug 31 w/o penalty. That's the BOOK BY date, not the cancel by date. I have a two week trip that I booked early this year for October and I may not cancel it till after August 31, though personal things are in the process of being changed, so I may cancel those trains and rebook on other train and maybe other dates.
> 
> Right at the top of Amtrak.com it says: "Amtrak is waiving all change and cancellation fees for *reservations made by *August 31, 2020."


About the same here...have three legs of a return trip booked for October. May be as late as mid-September before I make the final decision. This trip was booked after cancelling a June-July trip. Got instant "refund" of AGR points without a hassle.

BTW...checked on AmSnag this morning for October 5-20 ... still showing daily service for trains that are currently daily.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

FrensicPic said:


> About the same here...have three legs of a return trip booked for October. May be as late as mid-September before I make the final decision. This trip was booked after cancelling a June-July trip. Got instant "refund" of AGR points without a hassle.
> 
> BTW...checked on AmSnag this morning for October 5-20 ... still showing daily service for trains that are currently daily.


Thank you for the additional info. I also have a TCV which must be put towards a res by Jan 20... and they aren't extending that. Think I'll book something for the San Diego area... always nice there in January.


----------



## joelkfla

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> It's still unknown whether the cuts will take effect or not. The House passed legislation which would have prevented the cuts but it is stalled in the Senate.


The Grim Reaper strikes again.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> It's still unknown whether the cuts will take effect or not. The House passed legislation which would have prevented the cuts but it is stalled in the Senate.


The United States Senate belongs to you and me and all the tax payers. It's been proven by experts that such cutbacks will ultimately cost Amtrak more by driving away ridership with inconveniences. If the Senate is to properly represent the people they must reinstate those cutbacks. Hmmm... what are other voters thinking???


----------



## lordsigma

If I recall this was part of the appropriations bill for next FY. With COVID going on I highly doubt anything will get passed before the election. It’s highly possible that whatever eventually passes will stop the cuts, but it probably won’t pass before the election which is tricky given the cuts are slated for October 1. The $10 billion the house proposed is highly unlikely to happen but that doesn’t mean the senate won’t agree to an amount that’s enough to avoid the cuts.


----------



## Michigan Mom

Bob Dylan said:


> Typical Politician! I gave up trying to contact my 2 Senators since I'm not on their "Supporter List", so I would always receive Form Letters ( look it up Kiddies), now its Boiler Plate emails.
> 
> My Congress Critter is just as worthless, as a self avowed " Constitutionsl Conservative",he's against Everything the Congress passes!



2020 has been the year that really made it clear how little "representation" the average American has in Washington.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> Requesting advice and suggestions from the forum on what I should do with this upcoming reservation... noting uncertainty of frequency levels and food service... and the free cancellation deadline coming up August 31. If you were me, what would you do with this reservation??? 85,000 points
> 
> EUG - EMY - H room
> overnight
> EMY - CHI - H room
> CHI - WAS - Bedroom
> 2 nights WAS
> WAS - BOS - Acela 1st class
> 2 nights BOS
> BOS - CHI - H room
> CHI - PDX - H room
> PDX - EUG - Business class



You probably have hotel reservations and other events planned which would be affected. I was in a similar situation when the governor of California imposed restrictions a few weeks ago. I was afraid that even more restrictions would be in place including quarantines. I cancelled. Nowadays everything is upside down. Changing policies all over the place. People standing in line to enter supermarkets and those shops that are open. I am reminded of visits to the USSR and eastern Europe in the 1970s.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> If I recall this was part of the appropriations bill for next FY. With COVID going on I highly doubt anything will get passed before the election. It’s highly possible that whatever eventually passes will stop the cuts, but it probably won’t pass before the election which is tricky given the cuts are slated for October 1. The $10 billion the house proposed is highly unlikely to happen but that doesn’t mean the senate won’t agree to an amount that’s enough to avoid the cuts.



Is Amtrak taking reservations for any day of the week as of October 1? At the very least they should limit reservations to those three days a week on which they will operate assuming their plans are not altered by congressional mandate.


----------



## niemi24s

Ferroequinologist said:


> Is Amtrak taking reservations for any day of the week as of October 1?


There are three ways to find the answer: call Amtrak; make dummy bookings on the Amtrak website; use AmSnag (which does the same thing by making dummy bookings for as many as thirty consecutive days).

Well, four ways actually - hope somebody finds the answer for you.


----------



## PaulM

Ferroequinologist said:


> Is Amtrak taking reservations for any day of the week as of October 1? At the very least they should limit reservations to those three days a week on which they will operate assuming their plans are not altered by congressional mandate.


Apparently so. I amsnagged Washington to Tampa for 11/1 through 11/14. It offers the silver meteor 4 days a week and the silver star 3 days. The odd thing is that the days are consecutive, i.e., SM 4 days in a row and SS 3 days.

What happens if you book CHI to TPA departing on a day that connects to the SS on the last of the SS's 3 days, and the 2 hr connection is missed. Will Amtrak still put you up in DC, and then put you on the SM and ORL to TPA bus?


----------



## TinCan782

niemi24s said:


> There are three ways to find the answer: call Amtrak; make dummy bookings on the Amtrak website; use AmSnag (which does the same thing by making dummy bookings for as many as thirty consecutive days).
> 
> Well, four ways actually - hope somebody finds the answer for you.


AmSnag is the easiest way to check...that is what I'm doing for October as I have three LD reservations during that month. Still showing daily service. 
Who knows if/when that will change!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> You probably have hotel reservations and other events planned which would be affected. I was in a similar situation when the governor of California imposed restrictions a few weeks ago. I was afraid that even more restrictions would be in place including quarantines. I cancelled. Nowadays everything is upside down. Changing policies all over the place. People standing in line to enter supermarkets and those shops that are open. I am reminded of visits to the USSR and eastern Europe in the 1970s.


The 'new normal' is to be able to make a reservation with the anticipation and flexibility that anything can change. Kind-a think things will become more predictable [with the caveat 'anything goes'] when:
1] Sept 1 rolls around and Amtrak confirms schedules / food service --- at that point in time
2] November 3rd impact of election [although the new term doesn't start until January, 2021
3] Vaccine is rolled out... whenever that is


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

PaulM said:


> Apparently so. I amsnagged Washington to Tampa for 11/1 through 11/14. It offers the silver meteor 4 days a week and the silver star 3 days. The odd thing is that the days are consecutive, i.e., SM 4 days in a row and SS 3 days.
> 
> What happens if you book CHI to TPA departing on a day that connects to the SS on the last of the SS's 3 days, and the 2 hr connection is missed. Will Amtrak still put you up in DC, and then put you on the SM and ORL to TPA bus?


Even when the SS was daily Amtrak would rebook passengers on the SM and the thruway bus if the connection was missed from the CL. I'm curious what they would do if someone was going someplace like Columbia though.


----------



## uncleboots

MikeM said:


> Well, the Sunset has been such a stunning success, no doubt management is so happy to emulate it nationally. (insert sarcastic nod here...)


Actually the Sunset was going daily in 2021.


----------



## MikeM

uncleboots said:


> Actually the Sunset was going daily in 2021.


Really? Last I heard UP was asking for millions of dollars to enhance capacity of the line to facilitate daily service. Great news if true, but I'm doubting it...


----------



## Anthony V

MikeM said:


> Really? Last I heard UP was asking for millions of dollars to enhance capacity of the line to facilitate daily service. Great news if true, but I'm doubting it...


I figured that the OP was sarcasm, and I'm not normally good at detecting sarcasm.


----------



## saxman

The Sun sets daily now. 

As for the Sunset Limited, in 2009 or so Amtrak thought about making it daily with the available equipment they had. The plan was to make the Texas Eagle daily all the way from Chicago to Los Angeles and have a stub coach only train from San Antonio to New Orleans and eliminate the car switching in SAS. They looked at every scenario without having to add cars. Cost and revenue wise, that was the best solution at the time, according to them. UP quipped back and said they needed $750 million in track improvements. Nevermind the fact UP was already double tracking everything west of El Paso.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

GET A LOAD OF THIS









Amtrak releases criteria for restoring long-distance service - Trains


Amtrak has released information on the measurements it will use to determine restoration of long-distance service after the service is cut to triweekly, which is currently planned for Oct. 1. The three metrics to be used are: — Public health: COVID-19 hospitalizations must be stable or declining...




trn.trains.com





This is extortion. They're putting a gun to the national network's head. If Congress doesn't pay up, they'll execute the hostage.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

I wouldn't call it extortion given their current shortage of revenue but I'm not confident the requirements to restore a single route next year will be met let alone all of then.


----------



## west point

90% of what projection ? Pre Covid-19 or post just a very big difference.


----------



## uncleboots

MikeM said:


> Really? Last I heard UP was asking for millions of dollars to enhance capacity of the line to facilitate daily service. Great news if true, but I'm doubting it...


I read several months ago before the pandemic that Amtrak was making preparations to make the Sunset Limited a Dsily Train in 2021 and they were looking into a new proposed Nashville to Atlanta Train.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

west point said:


> 90% of what projection ? Pre Covid-19 or post just a very big difference.


It's 90% of pre-virus ridership. Although the percentage accounts for the reduced seat availability, that's the condition I think is very unlikely to be met. The decision is to be made in February, which is still winter and thus likely to occur during a second virus wave if one is to occur. As has been often discussed here, the tri-weekly schedule will make it much more difficult to plan trips and will significantly reduce ridership below previous levels even in the absence of the virus. Finally, the data being compared is for long-term bookings which is only likely to recover once the virus is no longer a significant issue, something that is doubtful to occur by February.


----------



## Trogdor

uncleboots said:


> I read several months ago before the pandemic that Amtrak was making preparations to make the Sunset Limited a Dsily Train in 2021 and they were looking into a new proposed Nashville to Atlanta Train.



They‘be been “looking into” lots of things for a long time. There were/are no concrete plans in place to increase service on any long-distance route, nor to add any route that wasn’t being sponsored by a state. Lots of studies, lots of ideas. None of them in the past two decades have progressed to the point of actually happening.


----------



## Exvalley

ShiningTimeStL said:


> If Congress doesn't pay up, they'll execute the hostage.


If Congress doesn't pay up, exactly where are they supposed to find the money to continue daily operations?

I don't like it any more than you do, but at least Amtrak is being transparent here.


----------



## daybeers

ShiningTimeStL said:


> GET A LOAD OF THIS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak releases criteria for restoring long-distance service - Trains
> 
> 
> Amtrak has released information on the measurements it will use to determine restoration of long-distance service after the service is cut to triweekly, which is currently planned for Oct. 1. The three metrics to be used are: — Public health: COVID-19 hospitalizations must be stable or declining...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trn.trains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is extortion. They're putting a gun to the national network's head. If Congress doesn't pay up, they'll execute the hostage.


fair use quote from article linked above:


> The three metrics to be used are:
> — Public health: COVID-19 hospitalizations must be stable or declining as of Feb. 15, 2021.
> — Future demand: Advance bookings for June 2021 must be at least 90% of the available seat-miles or room-miles of the figure for June 2020, as of Feb. 15, 2020. Calculations will take into consideration caps on ticket sales to promote social distancing, as well as other COVID-related measures.
> — Current performance: Ridership in the first quarter of Amtrak’s 2021 fiscal year, which begins in September, must be at least 90% of projections in Amtrak’s 2021 operating plan.
> If all three criteria are met for a given route, service will be restored to daily levels as early as May 2021 and no later than June 30, 2021. In releasing the metrics, Amtrak notes that the plans for reductions and subsequent restoration are dependent on sufficient federal assistance, which it says requires at least $3.5 billion for fiscal 2021.


"As early as May 2021" *that's not good*, not to mention it's going to be impossible to meet this. 90% of projections for 1Q21?!? I can't find what the FY21 goal was, but I know FY19 was 32.5 million, so let's say the goal for FY21 is 33.5 million. The first quarter has back to school, Thanksgiving, and the December holidays, so it may be more like 33% or so of the year instead of 25%. 33% of 33.5 million is ~11.17 million. 90% of 11.17 million is ~10.05 million. I don't see that happening. There will be a second wave.

This is made to fail. Plain and simple.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

daybeers said:


> fair use quote from article linked above:
> 
> "As early as May 2021" *that's not good*, not to mention it's going to be impossible to meet this. 90% of projections for 1Q21?!? I can't find what the FY21 goal was, but I know FY19 was 32.5 million, so let's say the goal for FY21 is 33.5 million. The first quarter has back to school, Thanksgiving, and the December holidays, so it may be more like 33% or so of the year instead of 25%. 33% of 33.5 million is ~11.17 million. 90% of 11.17 million is ~10.05 million. I don't see that happening. There will be a second wave.
> 
> This is made to fail. Plain and simple.


Projections for FY21 do factor in the virus, so I doubt the projections would be anywhere near 32.5 million. Unless someone has access to the projections it is difficult to project the feasibility of meeting them. However, as I mentioned I seriously doubt the requirement for future bookings will be met.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Exvalley said:


> If Congress doesn't pay up, exactly where are they supposed to find the money to continue daily operations?
> 
> I don't like it any more than you do, but at least Amtrak is being transparent here.



Where are they going to get the money to conduct triweekly services? *It is proven that nondaily service actually costs more to operate, not less. *Former Amtrak management has said it before, and they just recently said it again. Like others above have just said, this literally intended to fail and outright kill the long distance trains. If they really didn't have the money to continue operations and were being honest, they would just shut it all down like VIA has


----------



## jis

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Where are they going to get the money to conduct triweekly services? *It is proven that nondaily service actually costs more to operate, not less. *Former Amtrak management has said it before, and they just recently said it again. Like others above have just said, this literally intended to fail and outright kill the long distance trains. If they really didn't have the money to continue operations and were being honest, they would just shut it all down like VIA has


I guess, if there is not enough riders to support daily service without additional cash infusion that no one seems to be willing to make, and three times a week service cost more than daily service, then the logical thing to do would be to shut the system down, no? Of course, since Amtrak cannot furlough everone of its employees like Brightline did, I am not sure how that would work either.


----------



## Sidney

What's the latest status on the tri weekly trains? It's mid August and I'm sure many people have reservations beyond Oct 1. You can still book every day after Oct 1 last I checked. This will become a nightmare. Connections should be interesting. I would imagine somebody going to LA from NY would still have a daily choice using different trains. Its the stops inbetween.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Where are they going to get the money to conduct triweekly services? *It is proven that nondaily service actually costs more to operate, not less. *Former Amtrak management has said it before, and they just recently said it again. Like others above have just said, this literally intended to fail and outright kill the long distance trains. If they really didn't have the money to continue operations and were being honest, they would just shut it all down like VIA has


This is a unique situation due to the extremely low ridership. For example, assume that a daily train produces 3 times as many passengers as a tri-weekly train. Perhaps the daily train has an annual ridership of 300,000 in comparison to 100,000, so it would make sense that the daily train may lose less money due to the high fixed costs. However, if ridership were to drop 90% such that the ridership of the two trains was now 30,000 and 10,000, the tri-weekly train may now be less costly as the ridership difference is less even though the ratio is the same. If that still doesn't make sense, think of the most extreme case. A daily train with 3 total passengers would certainly lose more than a tri-weekly train with only one passenger.

Having said that, I am still unconvinced that this is the right decision; I think it would make more sense to cut amenities such as baggage service and combine the food service cars, but that certainly wouldn't be popular on this forum either. Even though they could likely save some money by reducing frequencies as explained above, from a financial perspective it would probably make more sense to temporarily suspend a few routes rather than cut frequencies on all of them if they absolutely have to cut LD frequency. I have also considered the possibility of more innovate solutions. Take for example the Coast Starlight. It has good OTP for an LD train and shares it's route with three separate corridor services. Perhaps Amtrak could work with the states for a temporary arrangement where the CS makes all local stops and serves as a replacement for a corridor frequency, allowing for the corridor funding to be redirected to maintain daily LD service. This would make sense especially for the Pacific Surfliner and Cascades portions, where there is currently only one daily corridor round trip and the CS is a crucial part of the schedule.

Obviously the best case for Amtrak would be additional government assistance, which is part of my reasoning for supporting amenity cuts rather than frequency cuts. Given the upcoming election, it seems reasonably possible that the assistance could come to Amtrak in January, at which point it would likely be too late to prevent a prolonged suspension of daily service if it takes effect as planned on October 1st.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Sidney said:


> What's the latest status on the tri weekly trains? It's mid August and I'm sure many people have reservations beyond Oct 1. You can still book every day after Oct 1 last I checked. This will become a nightmare. Connections should be interesting. I would imagine somebody going to LA from NY would still have a daily choice using different trains. Its the stops inbetween.


Amtrak just released their criteria for re-establishing service which implies they are moving forward with the tri-weekly plan in the absence of government assistance. The document also mentions attempting to preserve connections in Chicago, so perhaps they are planning on having the schedules coordinated there to maintain same-day connections. I'm curious what their plan is for the CL and LSL. If it is was my decision I would schedule the CL as the train for Western connections and have the LSL operate on the other days to maintain 6x weekly frequencies west of Cleveland and to the NEC cities via connections.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

> Public health: COVID-19 hospitalizations must be stable or declining as of Feb. 15, 2021.





> Advance bookings for June 2021 must be at least 90% of the available seat-miles or room-miles of the figure for June 2020, as of Feb. 15, 2020.



Is this for real? That pretty much kills it right there. There will be destabilizing flare-ups no matter what happens with treatments and vaccines. Imagine an airline stating that every route needs to enjoy 90% utilization or it gets slashed. That would be the end of the whole damn airline.


----------



## John Bredin

uncleboots said:


> I read several months ago before the pandemic that Amtrak was making preparations to make the Sunset Limited a Dsily Train in 2021 and they were looking into a new proposed Nashville to Atlanta Train.


The proposed Nashville service is, as I recall, dependent on Congress voting a $300 million per year fund for new corridor services, focusing on potential routes where there's some state cooperation (plans have been prepared, towns and local chambers of commerce on the route support it, etc.) but the legislature isn't eager to vote state matching funds. Amtrak proposal (pg. 30 altogether, 27 as numbered). Reading between the lines, the idea is to get service running for a couple of years on wholly federal funding from the $300 million fund, then hand the legislature a _fait accompli_ of an operating service to either fund or not. Much harder to "kill" service that exists, which has actual riders and political constituencies, than to abort a proposed service never "born" that nobody's ridden.

But I don't think Congress voted the $300 million, and it's definitely intended for corridor service. Corridor service to Mobile, AL has been discussed, which someone may be confounding with daily Sunset service.


----------



## Exvalley

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> This is a unique situation due to the extremely low ridership.


Exactly. I haven't dug deep into the study that says that thrice-weekly operations is more costly to Amtrak, but I am sure that the study assumes normal (pre-Covid) customer demand. Since that very important factor no longer exists, you really can't say that the conclusion of the study is accurate under current circumstances. At a minimum, follow up research needs to be done.


----------



## daybeers

Devil's Advocate said:


> Is this for real? That pretty much kills it right there. There will be destabilizing flare-ups no matter what happens with treatments and vaccines. Imagine an airline stating that every route needs to enjoy 90% utilization or it gets slashed. That would be the end of the whole damn airline.


Not to mention all those who say they aren't going to get the vaccine!


----------



## railiner

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I have also considered the possibility of more innovate solutions. Take for example the Coast Starlight. It has good OTP for an LD train and shares it's route with three separate corridor services. Perhaps Amtrak could work with the states for a temporary arrangement where the CS makes all local stops and serves as a replacement for a corridor frequency, allowing for the corridor funding to be redirected to maintain daily LD service. This would make sense especially for the Pacific Surfliner and Cascades portions, where there is currently only one daily corridor round trip and the CS is a crucial part of the schedule.


All well and good if the long distance train reliably runs on time...but unfortunately, that hasn't been the case in general...


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

railiner said:


> All well and good if the long distance train reliably runs on time...but unfortunately, that hasn't been the case in general...


That's why I mentioned the CS specifically. Since the start of the pandemic, both 11 at LAX and 14 at SEA have a median arrival time before the scheduled time.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

What does Amtrak management think they're going to tell Congress about this? If Congress gets a fresh coat of blue paint, they will likely put up the required funding (and more) and demand restoration of daily service due to public outcry. Anderson tried to fight Congress and it backfired gloriously on him. I hardly believe Flynn has any better chances.


----------



## west point

There is a problem that anyone connected with government is not willing to admit. Vaccines are not going to be available to everyone for quite a time. "IF" a vaccine is approved by Jan 1st the manufacture will take time to ramp up production of 300 million doses. Then the US will have the very hard political decision of how to get 1 Billion doses to just a poportion of our allies. If the US ships doses to other countries while some US persons who stil wants a dose can you imagine the uproar?


----------



## Bob Dylan

west point said:


> There is a problem that anyone connected with government is not willing to admit. Vaccines are not going to be available to everyone for quite a time. "IF" a vaccine is approved by Jan 1st the manufacture will take time to ramp up production of 300 million doses. Then the US will have the very hard political decision of how to get 1 Billion doses to just a poportion of our allies. If the US ships doses to other countries while some US persons who stil wants a dose can you imagine the uproar?


This is why its do important to Vote and select Office holders that will do the right thing in 2021, which is listen to the Scientists and Medical People.


----------



## uncleboots

Trogdor said:


> They‘be been “looking into” lots of things for a long time. There were/are no concrete plans in place to increase service on any long-distance route, nor to add any route that wasn’t being sponsored by a state. Lots of studies, lots of ideas. None of them in the past two decades have progressed to the point of actually happening.


I will take the articles word over yours.


----------



## me_little_me

uncleboots said:


> I will take the articles word over yours.


Which of Trogodor's words?

"There were/are no concrete plans in place to increase service on any long-distance route, nor to add any route that wasn’t being sponsored by a state."

Since the term "concrete plans" is open to interpretation, you may consider that anything to be started in 2021 e.g. could already be set in concrete for next year but I, for one, would not be so sure even if there were no Covid and I'd view the concreteness with a LOT of skepticism but with some faint ray of hope. 

"None of them in the past two decades have progressed to the point of actually happening."

I'll agree with you here if you can mention some unless, of course, what you consider an increase, differs from mine. After all, Amtrak considers "flex dining" to be an improvement but not everyone seems to agree.


----------



## Trogdor

me_little_me said:


> "None of them in the past two decades have progressed to the point of actually happening."
> 
> I'll agree with you here if you can mention some unless, of course, what you consider an increase, differs from mine. After all, Amtrak considers "flex dining" to be an improvement but not everyone seems to agree.



I was referring to new routes/frequency increases on long-distance routes (thought that was obvious). Since the extension of the Pennsylvanian and introduction of the Kentucky Cardinal circa 2000, nothing has happened to add a route or increase frequency, despite many “studies” on things such as the daily Sunset, daily Cardinal, North Coast Hiawatha, restoring the Pioneer, restoring service to Las Vegas, extending the Kentucky Cardinal (instead it got cut back), through cars Capitol Limited-Pennsylvanian, Crescent Star to Fort Worth. There have been countless ideas and studies, some more formal than others. None of them have resulted in a single extra mile of long-distance service.

Now I suppose technically one might consider extending the Cardinal to NYP as an LD route increase, but that didn’t add any new network mileage, and was really done for the operational convenience of rotating Viewliners through NYP after the route lost Superliners more than anything else.


----------



## Trogdor

uncleboots said:


> I will take the articles word over yours.



Perhaps you can actually provide the article in question.


----------



## Exvalley

I am by no means an expert, but my understanding is that the federal government has given money to the leading vaccine manufacturers in order to ramp up production so that a supply is available as soon as their vaccine is approved. Private companies don't generally do this because they can wind up throwing out a ton of vaccines if they don't obtain approval, but the government has taken on this financial risk so that a supply will be immediately available. That said, the most at-risk will get the vaccine first. It will still take time to get it out to everyone.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Interestingly, the reservation system is now blocking off new reservations on certain days starting October 1st in sleeping cars, but coach seats are still available. Not all routes are modified yet in the system but I've started to go through and figure out the new schedule assuming that is the reason for the lack of sleeper space in the system.

The CL and LSL would arrive Chicago on Monday, Thursday, and Saturday. These are also the same days the Cardinal arrives in Chicago. 

The CZ would leave Chicago on Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday, meaning same-day connections two days per week.

The TE would leave Chicago on Sunday, Tuesday, and Friday, allowing continued tri-weekly thru-service to Los Angeles but eliminating same-day connections from the East Coast.


The CL and LSL would also leave Chicago on Monday, Thursday, and Saturday. For reference, the Cardinal leaves on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

The CZ would arrive on Monday, Thursday, and Saturday, meaning same-day connections to the CL and LSL tri-weekly and two weekly connections to the Cardinal.

The TE would arrive Chicago on Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday, which preserves thru-service from Los Angeles and allows for two weekly connections to the LSL and CL but only one for the Cardinal.

I will update this list as the reservation system is changed.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

The SWC and EB appear to both arrive and depart Chicago on Monday, Thursday, and Saturday. This would allow tri-weekly connections from both trains in both connections to the LSL and CL. Three weekly connections would also be available from the Cardinal westbound, with two being available eastbound.

The SWC to CZ connection at Galesburg would be available bi-weekly. The CZ to SWC connection would be available tri-weekly.

The TE to SWC connection via St. Louis and Kansas City would be available bi-weekly, but the reverse would no longer have any same-day connections.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

The updated CL schedule would connect once per week to the SM and twice per week to the SS. Do the lack of a guaranteed connection from the SS to the CL or LSL, there would only be one weekly connection from the SM to the CL and LSL for the Florida to Midwest market.

The Crescent appears to depart the NEC on Sunday, Tuesday, and Friday. This would allow tri-weekly connections from the CL and two weekly connections from the Cardinal.

In the opposite direction, the Crescent would arrive the NEC on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. This would allow bi-weekly connections to both the CL and Cardinal.

One night connections from the SL to Crescent would be lost in both directions.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

The CS would depart Los Angeles on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. This would allow for tri-weekly connections from the SL and two weekly connections from the SWC. In addition, tri-weekly connections would be maintained from the CZ to northbound CS and from the northbound CS to the EB at Portland.

The southbound CS would arrive Los Angeles on Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday. This would maintain only one weekly connection to the SL. Two weekly connections would be available from the southbound CS to eastbound CZ and tri-weekly connections would be available from the EB to southbound CS.

As of the time it this post, changes are not yet visible in the reservation system for the CONO or Palmetto.


----------



## LinPhil

I'm looking at train schedules for the Southwest Chief and trains are already sold out. I think this means Amtrak is moving forward with the tri-weekly trains.
Notice how on Sunday, Tuesday, and Friday (Days With 421) the Chief is Sold Out
You can only buy tickets on three days a week for the Chief. Wednesday, no trains avalible.


----------



## TinCan782

As I noted on your Facebook post, interesting that Coach still shows fares (not "sold out") vs sleeper. Perhaps the next step of implementation on the website coach will also show sold out.

Related/not related? - *AmSnag* has been _*Unable to retrieve Fare Page* _for the past few days_._


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

I added a few posts to the Service Reductions thread that describe the changes; those probably belong in the same thread as this. As to only blocking sleeper sales, maybe this is a way of proving that the changes are for real while not officially canceling anything in the hope that Congress will come through with funding. It may also be that there is concern there would not be sufficient sleeper capacity to change everyone onto the new schedule if bookings continued but there is still spare capacity in coach.

MODERATOR NOTE: The 2 Service Reductions threads have been merged


----------



## mitako

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> The CS would depart Los Angeles on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. This would allow for tri-weekly connections from the SL and two weekly connections from the SWC. In addition, tri-weekly connections would be maintained from the CZ to northbound CS and from the northbound CS to the EB at Portland.
> 
> The southbound CS would arrive Los Angeles on Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday. This would maintain only one weekly connection to the SL. Two weekly connections would be available from the southbound CS to eastbound CZ and tri-weekly connections would be available from the EB to southbound CS.
> 
> As of the time it this post, changes are not yet visible in the reservation system for the CONO or Palmetto.


I'm assuming that the departure/arrival times are staying the same? Or are those being tweaked to create safer connections between routes?


----------



## chrsjrcj

From Trains Magazine: 









Amtrak sets schedules for triweekly long-distance operation - Trains


Amtrak will phase in triweekly operation of its long-distance trains over a three-week period beginning Oct. 5, according to a message to employees obtained by Trains News Wire. Trains moving to triweekly schedules as of Oct. 5 are the California Zephyr, Capitol Limited, City of New Orleans, and...




trn.trains.com


----------



## lordsigma

chrsjrcj said:


> From Trains Magazine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak sets schedules for triweekly long-distance operation - Trains
> 
> 
> Amtrak will phase in triweekly operation of its long-distance trains over a three-week period beginning Oct. 5, according to a message to employees obtained by Trains News Wire. Trains moving to triweekly schedules as of Oct. 5 are the California Zephyr, Capitol Limited, City of New Orleans, and...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trn.trains.com


Amazingly my cross country trip survived the cut my reservation days all check out except for one - just have to change the day I leave SPG on the LSL so I either have to spend two nights in CHI or do a same day connection going out.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MikeM said:


> Really? Last I heard UP was asking for millions of dollars to enhance capacity of the line to facilitate daily service. Great news if true, but I'm doubting it...


Why is it becoming such an ordeal to ride on a train???


----------



## NativeSon5859

There goes the overnight NOL connection between the Sunset and Crescent. It's a shame, really, because if the SL schedule could have been amended, you could have had SAME DAY connections for city pairs like ATL-HOU, ATL-SAS, ATL-LAX, BHM-HOU, CLT-HOU, etc. But instead of taking advantage of the geographic strong points of the network, the opposite happens. Can't say I'm surprised.


----------



## Exvalley

This completely screws up my trip in October on the LSL and CONO. I even booked airfare around it.


----------



## rtabern

Is it me... or could have a toddler come up with a better schedule? Unless I am reading this wrong... a conductor out of Chicago on the EB would sit in Winona, MN for Mon, Tue, and Wed night. Because when they arrive on 7 at 8pm on Monday night. The next possible train home would be 8 around 10am on Thursday. Same deal on 3 with Fort Madison and Kansas City. ***. So either crews get 3 nights sitting on the company dime or hundreds of dollars are poured out for vans back to Chicago from remote places. The unions and crew bases must be flipping out tonight.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

rtabern said:


> Is it me... or could have a toddler come up with a better schedule? Unless I am reading this wrong... a conductor out of Chicago on the EB would sit in Winona, MN for Mon, Tue, and Wed night. Because when they arrive on 7 at 8pm on Monday night. The next possible train home would be 8 around 10am on Thursday. Same deal on 3 with Fort Madison and Kansas City. ***. So either crews get 3 nights sitting on the company dime or hundreds of dollars are poured out for vans back to Chicago from remote places. The unions and crew bases must be flipping out tonight.


It seems to prioritize maintaining connections over all else. I didn't look at it from a crew perspective but it also makes little sense to me that there are 9 weekly departures from the NEC to Chicago which all occur on the same 3 days. For the Cleveland to Chicago portion, there are 6 weekly departures which are on the same 3 days only an hour apart from one another.


----------



## bms

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> It seems to prioritize maintaining connections over all else. I didn't look at it from a crew perspective but it also makes little sense to me that there are 9 weekly departures from the NEC to Chicago which all occur on the same 3 days. For the Cleveland to Chicago portion, there are 6 weekly departures which are on the same 3 days only an hour apart from one another.



Cleveland has already lost its twice-daily Megabus service to Chicago, meaning the only daily transportation options will be Greyhound and air travel - both of which have cut their schedules drastically and do not guarantee two seats to a single traveler. I would expect the Greyhound buses to be packed on days Amtrak doesn't run, leading to interstate spread of Covid-19. The decision-makers who created this situation may care, but do not truly feel its effects as they are all affluent enough to own cars.


----------



## Ollie12

Not sure if everyone has seen this but it looks like Amtrak have decided the timetable from October when long distance trains are reduced to thrice weekly.
Most connections are maintained but the east coast to Chicago suffers with all three trains (other than one Chicago - NY Cardinal) operating on the same days...

TrainReview


----------



## Sidney

A schizophrenic schedule. If you are traveling from Chicago to LA the Eagle/Sunset and the Chief alternative days. The only off day is Wednesday,but you can take the Zephyr to Sacramento and a San Joaquin and bus to LA. Of course this scenario is fine if that's the city pair you choose. Every other stop,save Galesburg is three days a week.

Unless you are a train buff and enjoy sorting out connections and days,most average people won't have the time and patience to work out a schedule that will fit their needs.


----------



## railiner

rtabern said:


> Is it me... or could have a toddler come up with a better schedule? Unless I am reading this wrong... a conductor out of Chicago on the EB would sit in Winona, MN for Mon, Tue, and Wed night. Because when they arrive on 7 at 8pm on Monday night. The next possible train home would be 8 around 10am on Thursday. Same deal on 3 with Fort Madison and Kansas City. ***. So either crews get 3 nights sitting on the company dime or hundreds of dollars are poured out for vans back to Chicago from remote places. The unions and crew bases must be flipping out tonight.


Like any other changes and upheaval's in service, while many are hurt by it, there are always a few that realize an unexpected benefit. Such can be the case, if say a crew member lives at or close to the 'away' end of his run, and normally 'commutes' to work....
I haven't looked at any of the specific's of the new schedule, but wondering if Amtrak could 'flip' the home terminal to result in shorter layover's? Of course, that would probably be too disruptive for the majority of the crew's, who already have home and roots in the current home terminal's, not to mention the logistic's of moving a crew base....so probably not a good idea.


----------



## Exvalley

This is the schedule for my trip in late October:
Fly to Boston on Saturday morning
Boston-Chicago on the LSL: Saturday
Chicago-New Orleans on the CONO: Tuesday (8:05 PM)
Fly home from New Orleans: Friday

I honestly cannot figure out how to make this work with the new timetable. This is because I have meetings in Chicago all day on Monday and Tuesday. Plus... I have to make it work with the airfare that I have booked.


----------



## Trogdor

rtabern said:


> Is it me... or could have a toddler come up with a better schedule? Unless I am reading this wrong... a conductor out of Chicago on the EB would sit in Winona, MN for Mon, Tue, and Wed night. Because when they arrive on 7 at 8pm on Monday night. The next possible train home would be 8 around 10am on Thursday. Same deal on 3 with Fort Madison and Kansas City. ***. So either crews get 3 nights sitting on the company dime or hundreds of dollars are poured out for vans back to Chicago from remote places. The unions and crew bases must be flipping out tonight.



It is essentially impossible to build a 3x/week schedule that is going to maintain connections and keep operating crew turns efficient. And if you make the turns work for the MKE/CHI crew base, it will probably break the turns for the St. Cloud base, or the Minot base, or the Spokane base, or...etc.


----------



## saxman

Here's a quote from a friend of mine, a rail advocate: pretty grim.



> Amtrak released, finally, their reduced 3-times-a-week schedule for the
> long haul trains on "America's Part-Time Railroad", effective in less than
> 60 days.
> 
> While some arrivals at the Chicago hub will offer thrice-weekly same day
> connections to other services (providing, of course that trains don't run
> excessively late) there are a few "casualties" to the body count for
> non-connects: The Cardinal, California Zephyr and playing the part of the
> red-headed stepchild, the Texas Eagle. The Eagle gets the royal shaft.
> 
> The Westbound California Zephyr does not connect with any inbound Chicago
> hub trains from the East Coast on Wednesdays. Only on Monday and Saturday.
> That's 2X weekly. Sorry Toledo, you're screwed during the week!
> 
> The Eastbound Cardinal leaves Chicago on Tuesdays with only a potential
> connection from the Texas Eagle. It does not connect with any trains
> arriving from the West coast. So sorry if you're in Galesburg and want to
> go to Indianapolis. You can only travel on Thursday and Saturday. 2X a week.
> 
> Taking the big hurt is the Texas Eagle, whose grass-roots TEMPO (Texas
> Eagle Marketing and Performance Organization) built up ridership and
> revenue for about 20 years until former CEO Richard Anderson yanked local
> revenue management away from a dedicated team and the train started to
> falter.
> 
> The Texas Eagle Arrives in Chicago on Wednesdays with no connections
> possible to anything other than a state-supported regional service. Zero
> national network connections. Ditto on Wednesday departures from Chicago.
> It's the only long haul train at Chicago Union Station that day. Watch
> connection revenue disappear like vaporware.
> 
> You can't travel from Pittsburgh to Little Rock on the Eagle any day except
> Thursday. That's a 1-time a week connection! Don't book Fort Worth to South
> Bend on anything but a Monday or a Saturday. 2X a week service.
> 
> Watch for those knowledgeable Amtrak executives to announce some time in
> the future the disappointing statistics on the Texas Eagle and wring their
> hands and cry that the train just isn't performing and must be cut (again,
> like they tried in the 90's before the locals showed the Washington elites
> how to run a train service).
> 
> Three-times weekly service will be a disaster, just like it was in the
> 90's.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Um...


----------



## looshi

Exvalley said:


> This is the schedule for my trip in late October:
> Fly to Boston on Saturday morning
> Boston-Chicago on the LSL: Saturday
> Chicago-New Orleans on the CONO: Tuesday (8:05 PM)
> Fly home from New Orleans: Friday
> 
> I honestly cannot figure out how to make this work with the new timetable. This is because I have meetings in Chicago all day on Monday and Tuesday. Plus... I have to make it work with the airfare that I have booked.


Many airlines are letting you move flights for free right now. Not sure if that helps you or not.


----------



## Exvalley

looshi said:


> Many airlines are letting you move flights for free right now. Not sure if that helps you or not.


The biggest problem is the fact that I have meetings all day on Monday and Tuesday in Chicago. This means that I have to take the Friday Lake Shore Limited to Chicago. My employer doesn't really monitor my time off, but I am not comfortable being out on Friday as a travel day (for a Monday meeting) since I am taking three days off the following week to visit New Orleans. I'm prefer not to be out of the office for more than one week without a better reason. It's a self-imposed rule, but my employer is gracious enough to give me carte blanche for days off and I would rather not make them rethink that.

The other choice is that I scrap my meetings in Chicago and do them remotely another time. That would allow me to take the Lake Shore Limited on Sunday and connect to the CONO on Monday, putting me into New Orleans on Tuesday. It would give me an extra day in New Orleans, which isn't a bad thing - but it would also mean that I would be taking the whole week off of work since I would no longer be conducting business on Monday and Tuesday.

I think that I will just sit tight right now and pray that Congress comes through.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

looshi said:


> Many airlines are letting you move flights for free right now. Not sure if that helps you or not.


Be sure the new schedules will allow for a connection. Including an airline flight may be risky and even with miss-connects and all that stuff, do you have a hotel selected if needed???


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Taking the train means taking a risk. That's just not right. Most reliable transportation? Your car.
> 
> My most reliable transportation asset is an old Camry... I keep the engine tuned and the tires are always the best money can buy. The door locks and air conditioning systems don't work... but it gets me to where I need to go. With the advent of Amtrak's decline and the pandemic and my passion for travel... the spector of a car trip motivates me to keep dreaming.
> View attachment 18441
> 
> 
> View attachment 18442


You might not want to come to the Southwest where Daily Temps are running 100-125!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Hope you are doing ok in all the heat... I wouldn't think of traveling when it gets this hot... Do whatever is necessary to keep the air conditioning in your home running ok. Right now I am not even considering a car trip. I used to live in St. Louis years ago where there were reports of deaths due to the heat... and I'm sure this summer with covid and global warming it is worse. The lines at world famous Ted Drews Ice Cream where stretched around the block. Stay home, stay cool, and stay safe!
> View attachment 18444
> 
> View attachment 18445


Thanks, I'm a Texas Native so do everything I can to stay out of the Blow Torch! 

Know what you mean about the Heat in St Louis!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

20th Century Rider said:


> Hope you are doing ok in all the heat... I wouldn't think of traveling when it gets this hot.


Down here 100F isn't even all that bad. It's the 110F and over days that you have to worry about. That's when your air conditioner is going to be approaching the limits for continuous operation. If there is any sort of fault or defect in your system that's when it's going to become a problem. Even a reduction in airflow due to traffic or construction can render a condenser nearly useless at those temperatures.


----------



## neroden

Exvalley said:


> This completely screws up my trip in October on the LSL and CONO. I even booked airfare around it.


Have you written to both your Senators, your Congressperson, your state's Governor, and your state legislators, demanding that they force Amtrak to reverse this three-a-week idiocy?

If not, please do so at once. You know what to say.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I guess, if there is not enough riders to support daily service without additional cash infusion that no one seems to be willing to make, and three times a week service cost more than daily service, then the logical thing to do would be to shut the system down, no? Of course, since Amtrak cannot furlough everone of its employees like Brightline did, I am not sure how that would work either.


Amtrak could save a lot of money by cutting half the NEC schedule, and with current ridership, it would be justified. 

The LD sector is the *best perfoming sector of Amtrak's business* during the pandemic -- so the corrupt and incompetent management decides to attack it. Everyone, including the former Amtrak Presidents, knows that three-a-week doesn't save much in costs and loses far more in revenue than that. Basically because more than half the passengers cancel due to scheduling problems. This is complete BS; it's sabotage designed to cost the taxpayer more money.

IMO: Vote for "Amtrak Joe" Biden, who I believe will appoint better board members and managers for Amtrak; and vote for Congressmembers who insist on daily service. The House of Representatives has already passed a bill which both funds Amtrak and demand daily service, the Senate Democrats have endorsed it, but Mitch McConnell and the Republican Senators who back him are preventing it from being heard in the Senate. That's where we are now. If four Republican Senators can be convinced to drop McConnell and vote with the Democrats, that would also work.


----------



## Qapla

Back when I was younger I enjoyed a good road trip. I could drive all day and still enjoy myself.

I'm a bit older now (receiving SS) and no longer desire to sit behind the wheel dealing with traffic, road conditions and the exhaustion of paying constant attention - I would much rather ride relaxed on the train ... that's why the service reductions and lack of service is so heartbreaking


----------



## Palmetto

There has been no hue and cry from Congress yet, has there, about the service reduction? Do they even know about the previous service reductions that actually cost more than to run trains daily? (Just to get this topic re-railed.)


----------



## Nick Farr

Palmetto said:


> Do they even know about the previous service reductions that actually cost more than to run trains daily? (Just to get this topic re-railed.)



Are there good figures on that somewhere? Also, figures showing LD trains were the best performing trains during the peak of the pandemic?


----------



## jloewen

neroden said:


> Have you written to both your Senators, your Congressperson, your state's Governor, and your state legislators, demanding that they force Amtrak to reverse this three-a-week idiocy?
> 
> If not, please do so at once. You know what to say.


I would LOVE to write my senators and representatives ... except, oops, I don't have any. I live in DC. This is an outrage that needs to be fixed.


----------



## tricia

jloewen said:


> I would LOVE to write my senators and representatives ... except, oops, I don't have any. I live in DC. This is an outrage that needs to be fixed.



I feel your pain. I don't have a representative now--he resigned to become Trump's chief of staff. And although I technically have two senators to write to, they're both nearly as useless. Hoping to fix that in November. Also hope the outrage of no DC reps or senators gets corrected in the next few years.


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep the discussion on the topic of Amtrak Service Reductions. Comments regarding road trips have been moved to the Road Trip Discussion thread in the Non-Rail Transportation forum.




__





Road Trip Discussion


Public restrooms aren’t suddenly going to go the way of the pay phone... Just having returned from a road trip, I have to second this statement. :) I think the risks of infections from public restrooms have been overstated by many. Even in the northeastern states where they're taking Covid...




www.amtraktrains.com





Also, please limit the posting of off-topic photographs since they take up a lot of room. Train photos may be posted to the Rail Photography forum. Thank you for your continued cooperation.


----------



## John Bobinyec

TrainsMag has announced the proposed schedule changes for October.

For completeness, we already have:

*Auto Train*
Northbound 52: Daily
Southbound 53: Daily

*Cardinal*
Eastbound 50: Tu Th Sa
Westbound 51: We Fr Su

*Sunset Limited*
Westbound 1: Sa Mo We
Eastbound 2: We Fr Su

*Silver Star*
Southbound 91: Fr Sa Su
Northbound 92: Th Fr Sa

*Silver Meteor*
Southbound 97: Mo Tu We Th
Northbound 98: Su Mo Tu We

The proposed schedules will be implemented as follows:

*Changes as of Oct. 5:
California Zephyr*
Westbound 5: Sa Mo We
Eastbound 6: Tu Th Sa

*Capitol Limited*
Westbound 29: We Fr Su
Eastbound 30: Th Sa Mo

*City of New Orleans*
Northbound 58: We Fr Su
Southbound 59: Th Sa Mo

*Crescent*
Southbound 19: Fr Su Tu
Northbound 20: Th Sa Mo

*Changes as of Oct. 12:
Coast Starlight*
Southbound 11: Sa Mo We
Northbound 14: Mo We Fr

*Lake Shore Limited*
Eastbound 48/448: Th Sa Mo
Westbound 49/449: We Fr Su

*Southwest Chief*
Westbound 3: Th Sa Mo
Eastbound 4: Tu Th Sa

*Texas Eagle*
Southbound 21: Fr Su Tu
Northbound 22: Fr Su Tu

*Changes as of Oct. 19:
Empire Builder*
Westbound 7/27: Th Sa Mo
Eastbound 8/28: Tu Th Sa

*Palmetto*
Southbound 89: Th Sa Mo
Northbound 90: We Fr Su


----------



## Dakota 400

jloewen said:


> I would LOVE to write my senators and representatives ... except, oops, I don't have any. I live in DC. This is an outrage that needs to be fixed.



You do have a Delegate to the House of Representatives. 

I agree that the lack of representation in our Congress for the citizens of the District needs to be fixed.


----------



## Michigan Mom

Very absorbing thread. I would have to think that preserving connections to the extent possible, would be the goal of a temporary, let's hope only TEMPORARY, service reduction. No perfect solutions although it sounds like they could have done it better. Have not actually looked at any sample schedules yet, although the note above about TOL is a little disconcerting.
Is there evidence of a lack of future bookings? Evidently with airlines, future reservations are down as people are not planning things as far in advance, but if this forum is anything to go by, rail passengers are more willing to book far ahead of time. If indeed the demand isn't there, Amtrak might be playing the same waiting game that the airlines are. Fall and winter might be rough with people going through pandemic related job loss and resultant loss of any discretionary income.


----------



## Barb Stout

jloewen said:


> I would LOVE to write my senators and representatives ... except, oops, I don't have any. I live in DC. This is an outrage that needs to be fixed.


Write to all of them then with an explanation as to why someone who doesn't live in their state is writing to them. And, yeah, I agree with the outrage.


----------



## lordsigma

neroden said:


> Amtrak could save a lot of money by cutting half the NEC schedule, and with current ridership, it would be justified.
> 
> The LD sector is the *best perfoming sector of Amtrak's business* during the pandemic -- so the corrupt and incompetent management decides to attack it. Everyone, including the former Amtrak Presidents, knows that three-a-week doesn't save much in costs and loses far more in revenue than that. Basically because more than half the passengers cancel due to scheduling problems. This is complete BS; it's sabotage designed to cost the taxpayer more money.
> 
> IMO: Vote for "Amtrak Joe" Biden, who I believe will appoint better board members and managers for Amtrak; and vote for Congressmembers who insist on daily service. The House of Representatives has already passed a bill which both funds Amtrak and demand daily service, the Senate Democrats have endorsed it, but Mitch McConnell and the Republican Senators who back him are preventing it from being heard in the Senate. That's where we are now. If four Republican Senators can be convinced to drop McConnell and vote with the Democrats, that would also work.


It should be noted this is part of a much larger bill That deals with Far more than Amtrak. It is not impossible that a bill eventually will pass preventing the cuts but it probably won’t be this much money and the timing of the election is inconvenient because It may not be until after the election that any big spending bills are passed. It’s really bad timing all around.


----------



## Siegmund

Barb Stout said:


> Write to all of them then with an explanation as to why someone who doesn't live in their state is writing to them. And, yeah, I agree with the outrage.



It's worth a try, but I've never gotten any kind of reply / acknowledgement my note was received, from a senator or representative outside my own state. When I lived in Alaska I used to regularly write to WA and OR politicians to tell them "I fly to your state and need public transportation when I get there."
When I write to the reps in my own state (AK then, then ID, now MT) I generally got back at least a form letter each time.

Meanwhile, have written to my own. (and jloewen can write to his nonvoting delegate - who probably has more sway with his colleagues than emails from a nonresident do.)


----------



## railiner

jloewen said:


> I would LOVE to write my senators and representatives ... except, oops, I don't have any. I live in DC. This is an outrage that needs to be fixed.


Simple fix...make DC part of Maryland...it's too small to be another new state....


----------



## me_little_me

railiner said:


> Simple fix...make DC part of Maryland...it's too small to be another new state....


We could declare it another country - but then we'd have to give them foreign aid.

We could let them attach to any state that would take them - but then we'd have to bribe the state that did so.

We could force them on another state - but that would violate the Constitution's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.

I suggest we separate out the government area from the people then consider the government area to be foreign territory and then restrict foreign travel from that country and allow that area to be the only foreign country that congress critters, Amtrak executives, and high administration officials can visit using tax dollars.

Anyone else want to vote for me besides my whole family, living and dead?


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> Simple fix...make DC part of Maryland...it's too small to be another new state....


...or Virginia, where a lot of DC'ers live and work. Besides isn't another state really going to mess up the flag?


----------



## railiner

jiml said:


> ...or Virginia, where a lot of DC'ers live and work.


Either or.....I only suggested MD, since the present District is on the MD side of the Potomac


----------



## NativeSon5859

The tri-weekly service advisory has made it to Amtrak.com, and the reservations system looks like it’s been updated to reflect the new schedules for all train.


----------



## Bob Dylan

railiner said:


> Either or.....I only suggested MD, since the present District is on the MD side of the Potomac


Makes me think back to when I lived and worked in the DC Area during my Fed Career.

I started out Living in the District, in an apartment @ Dupont Circle,when they were affordable!!! 

As Washington gentrified, I moved first to Foggy Bottom, then Alexandria, VA, then to Columbia, MD and by the time I retired was living in Rockville,MD.( the Metro was my main transportation method once it started).

As the old saying goes, you cant escape Death, Taxes,Expensive Hard to find Parking, and Rising Real Estate prices.


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> Either or.....I only suggested MD, since the present District is on the MD side of the Potomac


Makes sense. The reason I thought of VA is one of my best friends lives and works there while technically being assigned to Washington.


----------



## Sidney

Looking at the new tri weekly schedules,if you want to go to LA from New York,you can get to Chicago only three days a week. There are three ways to get there and all three options The Lake Shore,NE Regional/Cap Ltd and the Cardinal run the same three days. Once in Chicago you can get to LA daily using the SW Chief and the Texas/Sunset on alternate days and on the odd day Wednesday the Zephyr to Sacramento and a San Jouquin/bus to LA.

This makes absolutely no sense. You can get to Chicago only 3 days a week,but you can get to LA from Chicago every day.


----------



## Exvalley

I just checked the app. My trips now say, "Service has been canceled." I have no idea if they have issued a refund or if they will call me to rebook.

So what happens now if Congress says that they need to operate daily? Will my reservations magically reappear?


----------



## Nick Farr

neroden said:


> The LD sector is the *best perfoming sector of Amtrak's business* during the pandemic



Can you cite a source for this?

Given the large fixed costs of the LD trains from fuel to staffing, I don't really see how this is possible in terms of profitability.

As far as passenger numbers, I think people who had vacations planned on the LD trains or who were on the LD trains because of Greyhound cancellations are beefing up the numbers. Most NEC travel is business so circumstances probably killed that demand.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

The source was/is Amtraks own documents to Congress on ridership.

The simplest and most cost effective solution would be to run smaller consists 7 days a week. 2 coaches, lounge, sleeper. 3 onboard employees total. 1 for coaches, 1 for lounge, 1 for sleeper. The lounge attendant could close for 15 mins if need be to prepare the boxes for sleeper attendant to pick up or just have sleeper pax report to lounge to pick up the boxes.

That consist is probably too small but it would work especially for the off season during the pandemic.

I see Amtrak’s current management as a bigger problem long term problem then CoVid.


----------



## Nick Farr

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The source was/is Amtraks own documents to Congress on ridership.



Do you have a link for that? I can't seem to locate it.


----------



## Exvalley

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The source was/is Amtraks own documents to Congress on ridership.


Link?

I think that you have to be careful with these numbers. Let's say, hypothetically, that corridor service is down 90% but long distance service is down only 80%. It is much easier to scale corridor service than long distance service - which means that long distance service may actually be losing a whole lot more money.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

From recent Railway age article on another thread.

“”“Ridership is coming back: Long-distance ticket revenues climbed 71%, from $6.8 million to $11.6 million between April and May, operating with approximately the same frequencies, Northeast Corridor billing rose about 60% from $1.5 million to $2.4 million, and state-supported trains generated less than a 50% increase, from $2.3 million in April to $3.5 million in May. The existing long-distance service provided almost double the May revenue of Corridor and state-supported operations combined.” So it appears that, in effect, Amtrak has chosen to punish its most loyal riders.“”



Amtraks own graphs don’t make a good case for the cuts either. See letter from Flynn to Congress first week of June attached below. The graph shows 567 million extra for the network that includes in this case state corridors and commuter operations. Look farther down the need for long distance trains on network is only 151 million extra. (NEC 737 million extra needed) By Amtrak’s own account the NEC is sucking up the most subsidy. Also by all accounts recently long distance ridership is coming back stronger then corridors.

Every graph Amtrak produces seems to have numbers pulled out of thin air. We need an unbiased audit that doesn’t have an agenda attached to it.

Back to my original post a couple lines up. Since the fixed costs and infrastructure are already there running a 4 car daily train with 3 onboard employees would cost peanuts in the big picture.


----------



## Exvalley

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The existing long-distance service provided almost double the May revenue of Corridor and state-supported operations combined.” So it appears that, in effect, Amtrak has chosen to punish its most loyal riders.


Revenues are just one side of the balance sheet. Costs are the other. We just don't have enough information to know which type of service (corridor or LD) is hemorrhaging money the most.


----------



## IndyLions

I agree with the consist cut approach to 4 cars versus their 3d/wk across the board approach (except for AT, SM/SS).

If they could save real dollars, I could also see them combining the LSL and CL and splitting it in Cleveland. Or more likely, just run the LSL, and make people transfer at NYP to WAS or BOS. It would stink, but during a pandemic be understandable.


----------



## Sidney

Not having daily service from Cleveland to Chicago and Chicago to St. Paul is a mistake. How about one daily Cleveland to Chicago train,probably the Lake Shore being it arrives later than the Capitol Limited. Really,cutting NY/DC-Chicago to three days a week and running the three trains that do that route on the same days is idiotic


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## bms

Sidney said:


> Not having daily service from Cleveland to Chicago and Chicago to St. Paul is a mistake. How about one daily Cleveland to Chicago train,probably the Lake Shore being it arrives later than the Capitol Limited. Really,cutting NY/DC-Chicago to three days a week and running the three trains that do that route on the same days is idiotic



Yes, the inability to leave Saturday morning and come back Sunday night will cut out all weekend trips for me. I'd still use my vacation time to take the train, but needing to take time off for every trip would cut me from 15-20 trips a year down to 2-4 trips a year.


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## Qapla

Not being able to take a day trip to Tampa on days we would like or could make it is discouraging


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## Ferroequinologist

jloewen said:


> I would LOVE to write my senators and representatives ... except, oops, I don't have any. I live in DC. This is an outrage that needs to be fixed.


you can always move!


----------



## west point

Fixed costs on LD trains are going to be the killer. Stations and their upkeep and rentals, Freight RR access charges, equipment uppkeep is still there , The operating costs once a long time ago were about $4.00 per mile per car. Although it is August the booking site shows the loads of many LD trains are running at 90% of the 50% Covid-19 available loadings. Cannot really understand that high of a figure which is larger than I expected.


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## Nick Farr

Amtrakfflyer said:


> The simplest and most cost effective solution would be to run smaller consists 7 days a week.



Actually, not at all. The savings from not having to run/coordinate conductors and engineering staff, pay host railroad access fees and fuel costs negate any marginal savings from dropping a few cars and OBS.

I am 100% in favor of daily service, but the situation is one where passengers on LD services are far more flexible about when they travel. Dropping more than half the service just forces a slightly lower passenger load into half the costs.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Couldn’t disagree more and Amtrak's own numbers back it up. Click on the attachment from my previous post above. I think those numbers slipped through the cracks honestly. Costs to run NEC 737M, the LD network 151M.

Fixed costs aren’t going anywhere. Station costs, maintenance yards, reservations, administrative functions, management salaries, etc. The list goes on and on. The labor cuts are mostly symbolic with the protections built in, benefits for a year for those who actually do get furloughed and more overtime and travel expenses for those who do stay on due to inefficiencies of 3 day week operation. Rolling stock has for the most part been paid for decades ago and the new V2 sleepers are all buttoned up and stored. (Side note why aren’t the new V2 sleepers in service now getting a good shake down in service while ridership is low?)

As far as long distance travelers being flexible and 3x service not affecting them. Yes, for the most part someone traveling LA to CHI for pleasure that’s probably true. Again Amtraks own statements that endpoint to endpoint travelers only make up 5-10 percent of travelers on LD routes busts that myth. People that travel on the endless corridors that are the skeleton on the network need daily reliable service. Whether it be Minot to Spokane, Liberal to Kansas City, Klamath Falls to Sacramento and 100’s of other city pairs these people rely on the service because for the most part nothing else exist.

I truly see this disconnect by management as the most salient issue going forward concerning the National network. Why we keep hearing that endpoint to endpoint travel is low and therefore we don’t need the network is mindboggling and shows managements agenda (not incompetence) against the network. These people aren’t that stupid, they have an agenda. Gardner and Anderson have made that very clear the last few years and Flynn is no different.

One last point on 3x daily service. It was tried before and failed spectacularly for all the above reasons.


----------



## railiner

Amtrakfflyer said:


> hether it be Minot to Spokane, Liberal to Kansas City, Klamath Falls to Sacramento and 100’s of other city pairs these people rely on the service because for the most part nothing else exist.


Liberal? As in Kansas? Hasn't been passenger service there, since the Rock Island _Golden State _ceased operation's in 1968....


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## Nick Farr

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Couldn’t disagree more and Amtrak's own numbers back it up. Click on the attachment from my previous post above. I think those numbers slipped through the cracks honestly. Costs to run NEC 737M, the LD network 151M.



What you cited was a supplemental funding budget request, nothing more. Nothing in there about the breakdown of the true costs of the service, etc.



Amtrakfflyer said:


> Fixed costs aren’t going anywhere. Station costs, maintenance yards, reservations, administrative functions, management salaries, etc. The list goes on and on.



True, but that doesn't somehow make running fewer trains more expensive than running daily service. The only way Amtrak has to control costs on an ongoing basis is by trimming operational expenses.



Amtrakfflyer said:


> The labor cuts are mostly symbolic with the protections built in, benefits for a year for those who actually do get furloughed and more overtime and travel expenses for those who do stay on due to inefficiencies of 3 day week operation.



Not at all. People who aren't working aren't getting paid to work, at least not by Amtrak. People also take other jobs and reduced staffing means they hire fewer people to begin with. The savings behind reduced service are not at all symbolic. Penny wise and pound foolish, sure, but the cost savings in the short term are very real.



Amtrakfflyer said:


> As far as long distance travelers being flexible and 3x service not affecting them. Yes, for the most part someone traveling LA to CHI for pleasure that’s probably true. Again Amtraks own statements that endpoint to endpoint travelers only make up 5-10 percent of travelers on LD routes busts that myth. People that travel on the endless corridors that are the skeleton on the network need daily reliable service.



No argument on the need for daily reliable service for those traveling between midpoints in the network, but--let's be real--the current service is hardly reliable. The *goal* for LD trains is 50% on-time performance, a goal they haven't come close to meeting.

The sad truth is that the vast majority of passengers making up the vast majority of the revenue on these trains are a vacation and/or captive market who aren't going to be significantly deterred by the 3x week service. I haven't met many people going from CHI to EMY on the CZ, but I go CHI->RNO a lot, and lots of people take that train between Denver, Salt Lake, etc--and most of these travelers I've met are indeed flexible with their travel plans. I'm not going to suddenly stop taking Amtrak because of the reduced service levels.

I want a comprehensive national network that offers a true alternative to air travel. The current daily service product is FAR from that. I'd rather they fix the product and/or find ways of making it profitable rather than trying to serve all masters.

Until Amtrak is properly funded by Congress, Amtrak management is going to have to figure out how to make do with what they have.


----------



## jebr

Nick Farr said:


> True, but that doesn't somehow make running fewer trains more expensive than running daily service. The only way Amtrak has to control costs on an ongoing basis is by trimming operational expenses.



While that's the only (or at least primary) way they can control costs, they can also work on the other side of the equation (increasing revenue, or at least slowing decreases in revenue.) While economics during a pandemic are a huge unknown, in non-pandemic times a cut to 3-days a week (as done in the 1990s, I believe) wound up losing more money than was saved with less costs, and ridership dropped quite a bit as well. While someone who absolutely wants to take a train (railfan, once-in-a-lifetime trip, etc.) or absolutely needs to take a train (only intercity transport option, medical issues with flying and can't drive, etc.) will wind up making it work, a lot of ridership (at least non-pandemic) is semi-choice travel. They might prefer the train, but if the schedule doesn't work they'll take the bus, drive, or fly, or maybe they'll only take the train one way instead of both. They might also just not consider it if they can't keep track of what days the train runs easily.

Expenses also don't drop evenly, even for the cost to run the train. Sure, you don't have as many conductors or engineers on the trains, but they'll sometimes have longer layovers that they need additional compensation for (for example, they'll have a day or two on their layover in Minot, instead of running the train back later that evening.) I also don't know how the contracts work with the railroads, but it's possible that it's a simple "pay $X for daily service, but if you decide to run less trains than that you still need to pay $X" or the drop in cost isn't directly proportional to the trains that are ran.

Simply stated, while it costs more to run trains 7 days a week, you generally get enough revenue from the additional sales (since not everyone will move to a different day) to make up that difference. Now, during a pandemic, who knows, but I think it's worth having Congress fund Amtrak enough to at least keep service at a 1x/day level throughout the pandemic and the recovery from it, simply to make sure that everything's still there when we're on the other side of the pandemic.


----------



## IndyLions

Take this for what it’s worth. 

I was riding the Crescent yesterday and the sleeper attendant claimed that Amtrak had been offered additional COVID operational funding by Congress and had turned it down.

Again - take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Willbridge

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Couldn’t disagree more and Amtrak's own numbers back it up. Click on the attachment from my previous post above. I think those numbers slipped through the cracks honestly. Costs to run NEC 737M, the LD network 151M.
> 
> Fixed costs aren’t going anywhere.............
> 
> One last point on 3x daily service. It was tried before and failed spectacularly for all the above reasons.



But it does open the door to 2x weekly service as on VIA Rail.


----------



## Qapla

Amtrakfflyer said:


> due to inefficiencies of 3 day week operation.



A good example that the "3x a week" is not truly 3 times a week is a trip that I looked at:

When I tried to price a trip from Jacksonville, Fl to Portland, Or I found that there is only 1 day of the week (Tuesday) that this trip can be booked - not only that, but the trip would cost the same (riding in coach) for a regular ticket, senior ticket or handicapped ticket  ... there were NO discounts

The trip would leave JAX on Tuesday and not get to Portland until Saturday- there is a 4-9 hour layover in WAS or NYP and a 4½-5½ hour layover in CHI depending on which connecting train you take from WAS/NYP

A return trip does have 3 days it can be made (Sun, Tue, Thu) all with layover times around 2 hours - I might worry about making those connections with such a limited layover time ... again, no coach discount for Senior or Handicapped


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## Eric S

IndyLions said:


> Take this for what it’s worth.
> 
> I was riding the Crescent yesterday and the sleeper attendant claimed that Amtrak had been offered additional COVID operational funding by Congress and had turned it down.
> 
> Again - take it with a grain of salt.


Congress passed a bill and the president signed it into law back in March that had some supplemental funding for Amtrak, in addition to a host of other COVID-related things. Then, in May, the House passed a bill with additional funding for Amtrak but the Senate has not acted on that bill.


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## west point

Mitch McConnell strikes again


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## Lonestar648

I was trying to check the possibility of making a Multi city trip in March, but every way I turn, I am met with no connecting service, then trying to figure what days since Amtrak just says you have an error, there are no suggestions for a good date. Bottom line, I do not see ANYONE casually making reservations on line. Everyone will have to call in, but connecting in Chicago comes up invalid, the computer wants separate segments arriving and departing on different days. Departing only three days a week means staying over several days. I see the LD trains basically used just for stops within that route. I was trying Texas to WAS later to BOS then return to Texas.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Lonestar648 said:


> I was trying to check the possibility of making a Multi city trip in March, but every way I turn, I am met with no connecting service, then trying to figure what days since Amtrak just says you have an error, there are no suggestions for a good date. Bottom line, I do not see ANYONE casually making reservations on line. Everyone will have to call in, but connecting in Chicago comes up invalid, the computer wants separate segments arriving and departing on different days. Departing only three days a week means staying over several days. I see the LD trains basically used just for stops within that route. I was trying Texas to WAS later to BOS then return to Texas.


Texas to Washington should work fine with same day connections. The issue is the return, where an overnight would be required in Chicago (assuming you are going via Chicago). If you were going via New Orleans, the single night connection between the SL and Crescent will no longer exist.


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## IndyLions

Eric S said:


> Congress passed a bill and the president signed it into law back in March that had some supplemental funding for Amtrak, in addition to a host of other COVID-related things. Then, in May, the House passed a bill with additional funding for Amtrak but the Senate has not acted on that bill.



Again, take it for what it’s worth – but the attendant specifically said that this was money that they had available that the company refused. Not legislation that had not yet been fully put into law.


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## jis

Qapla said:


> Or .... run the SM daily and run a separate train (could be called the Silver Star Express) from Tampa to Miami daily with connection to the SM in Miami and/or Lakeland - in fact, you could run the SS twice daily (MIA - TPA) and cost less than running two trains to NYP each day.


Once upon a time there used to be such a train (once daily TPA - MIA) which ran for a couple of years before it was discontinued because FDOT did not want to fund it. It was the first incarnation of the use of the name _Silver Palm_.



IndyLions said:


> Take this for what it’s worth.
> 
> I was riding the Crescent yesterday and the sleeper attendant claimed that Amtrak had been offered additional COVID operational funding by Congress and had turned it down.
> 
> Again - take it with a grain of salt.


Yeah. in the context of the current service reduction discussion it is not worth much. 



IndyLions said:


> Again, take it for what it’s worth – but the attendant specifically said that this was money that they had available that the company refused. Not legislation that had not yet been fully put into law.


It is not unusual for train attendants to not know what they are talking about when it comes to details of Amtrak funding. Unless one can provide a pointer to a budget/ appropriation line item, such statements are not worth a heck of a lot.

What Erik says is more accurate representation of the current facts.


----------



## neroden

I'm just gonna say, I hope everyone has written and phoned their Senators with their stories of how this three-a-week nonsense doesn't work for anyone. You can use this form:



Action Center



Or call the Capitol Switchboard (202) 224-3121


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## neroden

Exvalley said:


> Revenues are just one side of the balance sheet. Costs are the other. We just don't have enough information to know which type of service (corridor or LD) is hemorrhaging money the most.


Amtrak's cost allocations are famously fraudulent. But when the so-called long-distance services are generating OVER HALF THE REVENUE FOR ALL OF AMTRAK, it's pretty obvious which sector is most profitable.


----------



## neroden

Nick Farr said:


> The sad truth is that the vast majority of passengers making up the vast majority of the revenue on these trains are a vacation and/or captive market who aren't going to be significantly deterred by the 3x week service.



False. People will switch to driving, or cancel the trips entirely.

I will. There's a dozen documented examples of other people complaining that they can't schedule their trips to Chicago in this forum and on Facebook Amtrak fan pages.

They'll lose essentially all their ridership.


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## neroden

IndyLions said:


> I agree with the consist cut approach to 4 cars versus their 3d/wk across the board approach (except for AT, SM/SS).
> 
> If they could save real dollars, I could also see them combining the LSL and CL and splitting it in Cleveland. Or more likely, just run the LSL, and make people transfer at NYP to WAS or BOS. It would stink, but during a pandemic be understandable.



Yeah, that idea -- flat-out suspending the weakest trains, then resuming them later -- while retaining a core daily service network -- isn't crazy. That's actually reasonable, because you're a reasonable person.

The three-a-week ******** is crazy. It's financial nonsense. Crew needs to be paid for layover time; the stations still have to be paid for; you don't save anything significant by cutting to less-than-daily. But you do destroy ridership and destroy revenue.

It's a complete violation of the orders they've been given by Congress -- the management should be fired for cause for this level of moronic brain-damaged idiocy.


----------



## bms

Members of the Amish community will probably still ride because they have no other choice, but they deserve daily service as well.


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## John Bobinyec

We had tickets for just after this coming Thanksgiving for the following vacation trip:

29 WAS - CHI
3 CHI - FUL

2 LAX - NOL

We couldn't leave on the scheduled day because 29 would no longer leave when we needed it to. So, we canceled EVERYTHING.

jb


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## AM_ROAD

bms said:


> Members of the Amish community will probably still ride because they have no other choice, but they deserve daily service as well.


Never underestimate the busing industry that caters to them.


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## Exvalley

neroden said:


> But when the so-called long-distance services are generating OVER HALF THE REVENUE FOR ALL OF AMTRAK, it's pretty obvious which sector is most profitable.


How so? You can't make that statement without knowing costs, especially since we know that the corridor enjoys an economy of scale that long distance service does not.


----------



## tgstubbs1

neroden said:


> False. People will switch to driving, or cancel the trips entirely.
> 
> I will. There's a dozen documented examples of other people complaining that they can't schedule their trips to Chicago in this forum and on Facebook Amtrak fan pages.
> 
> They'll lose essentially all their ridership.


Well, we'll see. It's hard to say but I doubt people will start flocking to Amtrak because they went to 3x week. 

It's too bad they are cutting back when the virus should be winding down and flattening the curve this fall. People might have pent up travel demand and some might consider rail a safe option.


----------



## Nick Farr

neroden said:


> False. People will switch to driving, or cancel the trips entirely.
> 
> They'll lose essentially all their ridership.



I find it really hard to believe they will lose all their ridership. 

It remains to be seen, but the passengers who transfer from one LD service to another on Amtrak are a very small fraction of the total LD ridership, even in the sleepers. 

We have to wait for the data, but when people say "LD Ridership makes up half the revenue" they're using a figure from COVID times where traffic on the NEC plummeted to essentially zero but LD Riders stayed true and continued on their vacations.


----------



## Qapla

No matter how you want to frame the numbers - cutting service never generates additional revenue. Cutting to 3 times a week will not increase ridership numbers so that "full service" can be restored when ridership recovers. It will not recover with less trains.

Oh - that's right. It's not "ridership" number that needs to go up ... it's "bookings" - again, numbers will NOT go up when trains are not running. Cutting service will result in fewer bookings and fewer riders and the suits at Amtrak will say that it "proves" the service needs to be cut even more, eliminating some routes and leaving others reduced until they can kill them too.

Just think, if they cut enough for Amtrak to die - they will be putting themselves out of a job like they are doing to those currently working for Amtrak - wonder if they have thought that far ahead ...


----------



## me_little_me

Qapla said:


> Just think, if they cut enough for Amtrak to die - they will be putting themselves out of a job like they are doing to those currently working for Amtrak - wonder if they have thought that far ahead ...


Of course they have. Executives don't suffer when they cut companies to the ground. They simply get hired by other like-minded executives or get positions in like-minded governments. It's only the peon employees, the customers and the stockholders (in companies that have them) and/or the taxpayers, that get left holding the bag.


----------



## Willbridge

me_little_me said:


> Of course they have. Executives don't suffer when they cut companies to the ground. They simply get hired by other like-minded executives or get positions in like-minded governments. It's only the peon employees, the customers and the stockholders (in companies that have them) and/or the taxpayers, that get left holding the bag.


But wait! There's more! Independent bus companies running Thruway service, communities that have fixed up train stations, local businesses of many types all take a hit from service cutbacks. In one-train-each-way towns the station isn't the only generator of business, but it generates part of the business activity.


----------



## Nick Farr

Qapla said:


> No matter how you want to frame the numbers - cutting service never generates additional revenue.



True, but it can make a service more profitable or incur fewer losses. The key metrics are utilization and profit. 

Let's be brutally honest: Amtrak's goal is to make a profit or fully subsidize its services running at a loss. 

The COVID data suggests there's a very sticky baseline market for the LD trains. The most optimistic view is that the cuts appear to be targeted at "right sizing" the LD trains to meet the size of that market. 

Of course, the least optimistic view is that this is a great excuse to gradually kill off a business line they don't want.

If we stop riding, we're going to be giving them what they want.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## Barb Stout

There was a blurb on a local TV news channel last night about Amtrak service cutbacks. They interviewed a fellow with a train advocate organization (can't remember it's name, but I remember the man's last name-Gurule) and also Senator Udall who of course stated that he is against the cutbacks. The blurb focused on the SWC. The piece ended on a laughable positive note with something about Congress possibly giving Amtrak a money transfusion in the next few weeks. If Congress couldn't even agree on helping out millions and millions of regular people who have been financially devastated by the epidemic, I can't see them supplying more funds for Amtrak.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Barb Stout said:


> There was a blurb on a local TV news channel last night about Amtrak service cutbacks. They interviewed a fellow with a train advocate organization (can't remember it's name, but I remember the man's last name-Gurule) and also Senator Udall who of course stated that he is against the cutbacks. The blurb focused on the SWC. The piece ended on a laughable positive note with something about Congress possibly giving Amtrak a money transfusion in the next few weeks. If Congress couldn't even agree on helping out millions and millions of regular people who have been financially devastated by the epidemic, I can't see them supplying more funds for Amtrak.


These EZ riders are home campaigning, and raking in Millions for re-election, while not doing their jobs!

Fire em all, Vote early and Often as has been said!


----------



## Dakota 400

Barb Stout said:


> The piece ended on a laughable positive note with something about Congress possibly giving Amtrak a money transfusion in the next few weeks



I have read that there has been a bipartisan agreement among the leaders of Congress for passage of a Continuing Resolution to keep the government operating after the current one ends on September 30th. One Party wants passage until sometime in December; the other Party wants it to go into 2021. Perhaps that is what the person was saying.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

So this happened today









President & CEO Jim Mathews Testifies Before the United States House of Representatives House Transportation & Infrastructure Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines, and Hazardous Materials | Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC







www.railpassengers.org





Read the comment below it. While Jim absolutely roasted Flynn alive with the facts, he didn't even include the best ones. It should be clear to anyone with even a quarter of a brain that Flynn is lying through his teeth, and that he's just asking for "protection money" like a mob boss. Airlines and other businesses and agencies are probably doing the same, but here it looks like Amtrak doesn't even want to make money. Not only do LD trains actually make money, but they're making nearly ALL of Amtrak's money right now, and they could be making even more.

If they don't want to make money and they don't want to provide a good service, then... what are they doing?

No matter what, whether the trains survive the pandemic or not, Amtrak is still being deliberately sabotaged from the inside. They won't stop until they've won, they're replaced, or Congress establishes firm protections for the levels of service they want.

We really should be picketing outside Flynn's office at this point.


----------



## John Bobinyec

Concerning the House subcommittee hearing Jim Mathews testified before today, I was rather astonished at the lack of knowledge some of the Congress-people had, as indicated by their questions. Some Congress-people did, however, seem to know what was going on.

Anyway, the meeting was not very helpful, I think. The House has already passed the rescue legislation and has sent it to the Senate - where it languishes.

If the point was to make Flynn uncomfortable, I'm sure it did. But I don't think he'll back down on the service cuts.

jb


----------



## Palmland

I listened to part of it. I was glad to hear Flynn say ‘there is no hidden agenda’ to eliminate long distance trains and he supports the national network. I am sure many will think that’s b.s. but, being the optimist, I was glad to hear him say it. Further he reiterated Amtrak wants to grow the business. But, something has to give when your business tanks. He mentioned that states that fund some trains have the same problem.

No one wants to see train frequencies reduced with resulting job losses. But without a government bailout, what’s the alternative? And then the question: can the country and taxpayer afford to fund these losses or would it be a better use of our money to provide unemployment assistance and small business assistance that affects millions? The easy answer is do both. Is it the right one?

Eventually Covid will subside. Can we expect passengers to return? Let’s hope those potential riders haven’t forgotten that train, or plane, travel is an alternative to their automobile or staying at home and using zoom. At a minimum, I would like Congress insure that the host railroads will enable the LD network to be restored to pre-Covid levels and no additional funding for capacity ‘improvements’ would be required.


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## ShiningTimeStL

Palmland said:


> At minimum, I would like Congress insure that the host railroads will enable the LD network to be restored to pre-Covid levels and no additional funding for capacity ‘improvements’ would be required.



That may be too cerebral, given the level of understanding demonstrated by the committee today.


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## Acela150

Bill Flynn is off to a "great start"....

While not this is not service reduction related, it's still of note. 









DeFazio, Lipinski and Wexton Call Out Amtrak for Attempting to Send Work Overseas | The House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure


The House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure



transportation.house.gov





Also, the entire 2 and a 1/2 hour hearing is below.


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## dlagrua

I listened to and read Mathews testimony and he made some very good points but he can only go so far. Amtrak is a sponsor of RPA so he's careful about what he says. For instance he never mentions that the LD services are charged a portion of the expenses of running the NEC including those at Penn Station NYC and all other stations along the route. If that were eliminated from the expenses charged to LD they might be profitable. 
As for Flynns presetation , it sound like he's trying to extort more momey from congress but I also get the impression that he's pretty set on the Oct cuts to three day service. Let's hope for congressional intervention.


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## jruff001

dlagrua said:


> For instance he never mentions that the LD services are charged a portion of the expenses of running the NEC including those at Penn Station NYC and all other stations along the route. If that were eliminated from the expenses charged to LD they might be profitable.


What's wrong with that and why should those charges be eliminated? Several LD trains use those stations and originate / terminate at NYP (and use Sunnyside, change engines at DC, etc.). In fact the NEC stations see more LD trains than terminals like LA, New Orleans and Seattle, for example.


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## Exvalley

Qapla said:


> No matter how you want to frame the numbers - cutting service never generates additional revenue.


So by that logic Amtrak should run twelve Empire Builders per day.

The problem with your argument is that you are completely ignoring the cost side of the equation. Let's say that Amtrak picks up three additional passengers because they decided to run 12 Empire Builders instead of 11 each day. The revenue from picking up those three passengers is greatly eclipsed by running a 12th train per day.

Don't get me wrong. I think that daily service is very important. Just look at Canada to see how difficult it can be to restore daily service. But Amtrak has clearly looked at both revenues and costs - and decided that three times per week is the proper balance.


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## daybeers

Exvalley said:


> Don't get me wrong. I think that daily service is very important. Just look at Canada to see how difficult it can be to restore daily service. But Amtrak has clearly looked at both revenues and costs - and decided that three times per week is the proper balance.


The thing is though, they didn't look at it. 3x/week service is going to cost Amtrak more money than it saves.


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## jis

dlagrua said:


> I listened to and read Mathews testimony and he made some very good points but he can only go so far. Amtrak is a sponsor of RPA so he's careful about what he says.


Just as a matter of information, the past relationship that you are basing this allegation on, was terminated by Amtrak CEO Anderson as a cost saving measure for Amtrak, in case you did not notice. That is why the Amtrak Customer Advisory Council, which the funding was specifically related to, does not exist any more.

As for the AGR points, RPA pays Amtrak the standard market rate for buying the points that it gives to its members. This has been suspended for the current financially difficult times and may be restored when things improve.


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## tgstubbs1

daybeers said:


> The thing is though, they didn't look at it. 3x/week service is going to cost Amtrak more money than it saves.


Maybe they're thinking leisure passengers that use the sleepers can plan more than passengers that use it for utility, who might not feel safe enough yet. 

It's true it will probably cost them, just like someone who resorts to borrowing from a loan shark because all their legit options are off the table for some reason. 

Hopefully congress will come thru before it's too late.


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## jis

I can see that it will cost Amtrak more in terms of financial accounting, but I very much doubt that it will increase their current net outward cashflow. At present they are probably focused on reducing net cash flow out just to remain solvent. I could be wrong, but this is my suspicion.


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## Blujbckr

Possibly doesn’t belong on this thread but here goes anyways. Ridership is down on long distance trains (I forget the percentage from previous year). So I ask was that previous year comparing using 3 coaches as is customarily added during the summer months? If so isn’t that an inaccurate comparison? Kinda adds to Amtrak’s point that ridership is down. Hmmmm. Same for sleepers usually add a third. Also capping ridership at 50% is an disadvantage. Again, if I’m on the wrong post let me know and I will move it.


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## Qapla

Exvalley said:


> So by that logic Amtrak should run twelve Empire Builders per day.



I don't think I said/suggested/recommended/implied that service should be "increased" ... like Mathews presented in his testimony, reducing the size of the trains and keeping the frequency would most likely accomplish an overall cost benefit better than reducing frequency. Reducing frequency makes the train an even less equitable method of travel due to connection issues thus driving ridership even lower at a time when ridership needs to increase, not decrease.

Of the various ways to decrease overall expenses while increasing revenue, reducing service is not the best option when there are other options available.


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## Devil's Advocate

If Amtrak is at serious risk of insolvency then I believe most people can understand dropping daily service on a temporary basis. I think the primary impasse comes from a lack of trust between management and customers. A long history of temporary suspensions becoming permanent reductions (SLE), the loss of nearly every route-specific feature and amenity (PPC), and recent threats of turning trains into buses (SC) have not been forgotten. Customers and advocates don't have a practical method for reaching out to Amtrak management so the olive branch (and trust building) really needs to come from Amtrak.


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## jis

Three Reactions to the Amtrak and COVID-19 Hearing | Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC


While the state of play is fairly well-defined at this point, there were a few revelations that came out of yesterday’s hearing.




railpassengers.org


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## chrsjrcj

One positive thing I took from the Flynn hearing was him recognizing that LD trains are an essential service and said more or less without saying it that they shouldn't be expected to be a money maker. 

There was also an interesting question about why Amtrak counts states subsidies as revenue but not federal subsidies. That has been a question posed on this site, so it was interesting to see it brought up by a member of Congress. 

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see much movement from Congress to protect workers from being furloughed and LD service being cut. It's surprising considering we're in an election year, but I suppose there is a lack of urgency by many members unless the stock market falls off a cliff again.


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## neroden

Flynn was forced on record to Congress saying that daily service will return. That's a good start. Roger Harris is also on record as supporting the return of daily service.

Someone within Amtrak (probably not Harris) is still lying to Flynn. (Smart money says it's Stephen Gardner lying to both Anderson and Flynn.) Every expert including three previous Amtrak Presidents has said that three-a-week will only cause Amtrak to spend money faster -- the cost savings will be vastly outweighed by the damage to revenue. But someone (probably Gardner) is lying to Flynn and telling him that three-a-week will save money. It's worth figuring out who that someone is (probably Gardner) and managing to get it through Flynn's head that that person (probably Gardner) is lying to him.


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## AmtrakFlyer

That actually made me laugh. How right you are.


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## ShiningTimeStL

neroden said:


> Flynn was forced on record to Congress saying that daily service will return. That's a good start. Roger Harris is also on record as supporting the return of daily service.
> 
> Someone within Amtrak (probably not Harris) is still lying to Flynn. (Smart money says it's Stephen Gardner lying to both Anderson and Flynn.) Every expert including three previous Amtrak Presidents has said that three-a-week will only cause Amtrak to spend money faster -- the cost savings will be vastly outweighed by the damage to revenue. But someone (probably Gardner) is lying to Flynn and telling him that three-a-week will save money. It's worth figuring out who that someone is (probably Gardner) and managing to get it through Flynn's head that that person (probably Gardner) is lying to him.


This guy gets it. Though at this point I also have a hard time believing anyone at Amtrak, let alone its president, is dumb enough to continue believing Gardner's lies when the facts have been so clearly and thoroughly presented. Could the Chief of Operations alone be responsible for hijacking the company to serve his own agenda? We'll have to find out.


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## John Bobinyec

During normal times, with normal travel demand, the common wisdom is that long distance trains running three days a week lose more money through all sources, than they do if they run seven days a week.

But, these are not normal times. We are in completely uncharted territory. So I can see why Amtrak wants to try reducing frequencies. They really don't have many tools in the toolbox right now. And it remains to be seen whether whatever they try will work or not.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like the reduced frequencies at all. I'm just saying I think I can understand how Amtrak came to that conclusion.

jb


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## Exvalley

Same here. I don't like non-daily service one bit. But referring studies based on NORMAL travel is not really relevant or helpful in the age of Covid-19.

First and foremost, I want Amtrak to survive. Hopefully they will be fully funded for the restoration of daily service.


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## tricia

Well, those studies ARE relevant in that they document both fixed costs and ADDED costs (longer and logistically awkward crew layovers, for example) that either don't diminish or actually increase with 3/week scheduling.

What we really need is a proper comparison between costs of running 3/week vs costs of running reduced-to-mimimum-size consists daily. Then factor in revenue estimates based on various scenarios for reduced demand due to Covid in the months ahead, as well as an estimate of the value of not losing your returning customer base because they can't make the 3/week schedules work for them. 

I'm sure others here will think of other factors to consider.  In a better world, I'd be more confident that Amtrak management actually went through an analysis like this during their decision-making.


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## Barb Stout

ShiningTimeStL said:


> This guy gets it. Though at this point I also have a hard time believing anyone at Amtrak, let alone its president, is dumb enough to continue believing Gardner's lies when the facts have been so clearly and thoroughly presented. Could the Chief of Operations alone be responsible for hijacking the company to serve his own agenda? We'll have to find out.


What would his agenda be?


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## Dakota 400

neroden said:


> It's worth figuring out who that someone is (probably Gardner) and managing to get it through Flynn's head that that person (probably Gardner) is lying to him.



I think that it sometimes takes awhile for a person in Mr. Flynn's position to learn who is giving him the "straight scoop" and who is providing a view more in line with that individual's agenda.


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## neroden

Dakota 400 said:


> I think that it sometimes takes awhile for a person in Mr. Flynn's position to learn who is giving him the "straight scoop" and who is providing a view more in line with that individual's agenda.


Agreed, I've seen that a lot.

The demand destruction is real: every railfan group I've been in has people coming and saying "Has Amtrak stopped service betweeen Chicago and NY? Has Amtrak stopped service between Chicago and Denver? " etc. because they tried to book and found no trains on the day they picked. 

Those who don't bother to join a railfan group will simply leave assuming there is no train service, and that's the end, they won't travel again. Customer lost for years or possibly forever. I'm seeing several per week in every railfan group -- how many customers are being bled out by this idiotic three-a-week nonsense?

It's pretty clear it's going to be more dollars lost than the "cost savings" (which have been documented to verge on the nonexistent). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate what the effect is going to be.

I'm a reasonable person. Vermont decided to completely suspend the trains in Vermont. This actually *does* save money (which the three-a-week nonsense does not). It is also clear and comprehensible. When they restart service, they will make a big "we're back" announcement, and riders will come back. In fact, if Amtrak had done that nationally, I wouldn't like it, but I'd accept it.

But three-a-week is garbage. It drives away even customers who *can* plan their schedules around the three-a-week schedule, because they *expect* a daily train and when they don't find a train on the first day they pick, they assume there's no train at all. And Amtrak has not publicized the schedule. 

These trains are going to run empty because only those "in the know" will even realize that they're running. This is sabotage by Amtrak management (probably Gardner).


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## Amtrak_Carolinian_2020

Any idea when the business class car and the baggage car will return to the Carolinian? The Palmetto, for example, has restored its standard trainset with the business class car and baggage car for quite some time since COVID related trainset reductions began, but the Carolinian is still at 5 coaches and 1 cafe car. Any idea when the Carolinian will restore its standard trainset?


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## John Bobinyec

I can't tell you when, only what I was told about what happened.

The Carolinian is a state sponsored train from Charlotte to Washington. In order to save money, NCDOT decided with Amtrak to remove the baggage car. I can't say about the business class car. Since October starts a new fiscal year, perhaps those cars will return, if NCDOT can find some money.

jb


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## Steve4031

I just tried booking 4 possible departures for Saturday returning to Chicago from Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, San Antonio and Boston on 10/17. Not one was available because none of the trains departed from those cities on those days. This is a bunch of horse ****.


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## TinCan782

Steve4031 said:


> I just tried booking 4 possible departures for Saturday returning to Chicago from Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, San Antonio and Boston on 10/17. Not one was available because none of the trains departed from those cities on those days. This is a bunch of horse ****.


You now have to build your travel around Amtrak's "schedule" instead of the other way around!


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## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> I just tried booking 4 possible departures for Saturday returning to Chicago from Salt Lake City, Albuquerque, San Antonio and Boston on 10/17. Not one was available because none of the trains departed from those cities on those days. This is a bunch of horse ****.


Does it offer you alternate days? If not, they need to have their heads examined.


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## Sidney

Now you have to book according to Amtrak's schedule instead of booking on your schedule. If you want to go from Chicago to LA or New York to Miami you can still book everyday. It's the stops inbetween that you have to see which days Amtrak stops. Most people are not going to be bothered to figure out a schedule for themselves. Flexibility(like the food).

Again,how is this tri weekly schedule supposed to increase ridership,?


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## Qapla

Sidney said:


> how is this tri weekly schedule supposed to increase ridership,?




One can only hope (dream)


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## nti1094

Or worse, you have a booking you are attempting that involves a connection. I often (once a month or two)travel NYC to Memphis, but after October this is not possible to book in the app. There is no longer a same day connection in Chicago. That alone is problematic, but the thing is I would have to book two iteneraries knowing the days service runs. Most people would just give up after inputting a few days and never getting a valid itenerary in the app. 



neroden said:


> Agreed, I've seen that a lot.
> 
> The demand destruction is real: every railfan group I've been in has people coming and saying "Has Amtrak stopped service betweeen Chicago and NY? Has Amtrak stopped service between Chicago and Denver? " etc. because they tried to book and found no trains on the day they picked.
> 
> Those who don't bother to join a railfan group will simply leave assuming there is no train service, and that's the end, they won't travel again. Customer lost for years or possibly forever. I'm seeing several per week in every railfan group -- how many customers are being bled out by this idiotic three-a-week nonsense?
> 
> It's pretty clear it's going to be more dollars lost than the "cost savings" (which have been documented to verge on the nonexistent). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate what the effect is going to be.
> 
> I'm a reasonable person. Vermont decided to completely suspend the trains in Vermont. This actually *does* save money (which the three-a-week nonsense does not). It is also clear and comprehensible. When they restart service, they will make a big "we're back" announcement, and riders will come back. In fact, if Amtrak had done that nationally, I wouldn't like it, but I'd accept it.
> 
> But three-a-week is garbage. It drives away even customers who *can* plan their schedules around the three-a-week schedule, because they *expect* a daily train and when they don't find a train on the first day they pick, they assume there's no train at all. And Amtrak has not publicized the schedule.
> 
> These trains are going to run empty because only those "in the know" will even realize that they're running. This is sabotage by Amtrak management (probably Gardner).


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## Palmetto

Sidney said:


> Now you have to book according to Amtrak's schedule instead of booking on your schedule. If you want to go from Chicago to LA or New York to Miami you can still book everyday. It's the stops inbetween that you have to see which days Amtrak stops. Most people are not going to be bothered to figure out a schedule for themselves. Flexibility(like the food).
> 
> Again,how is this tri weekly schedule supposed to increase ridership,?



It's not. Apparently, just the opposite is occuring, which some would hold was the "grand plan" in the first place. I'm not one of them.


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## jis

I think Amtrak's website has become pretty much unusable, specially with this tri-weekly service stuff, since the website does not provide a calendar view of which days service is available (unless of course I completely missed it somehow). You just have to try every day of the week to first discover what days things run, unless you by chance find the well hidden document that provides that information.

heck, even the worst airlines in the world are able to provide a calendar view of service availability including different fares available on each day. But not Amtrak. It is still trying to get into the 21st centurky while apparently regressing in actuality towards the 19th century.


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## Qapla

The AirB&B app has unavailable days blocked/grayed out ... seems Amtrak could do the same with their app - simply gray out the days a particular train does not run once you have selected the origin station (like the auto part sites do once you select year and/or make ... they then give a list of only the models available)


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## bms

They have an alternate reservation system that does suggest another travel date:



https://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak




I found that when I searched for a train from CLE to ACY on the regular site. It directed me to that alternate site because the reservation includes a NJ Transit train.


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## Qapla

That's their old site/interface - the one they took away for this "better" site/interface

OK - I looked at a trip from JAX to CHI on Oct 9 - leaving Jax on a Friday

It says there is no train available and gave me the "the next available day" - Oct 13  So, I can't take a train to travel over the weekend??? I would have to wait until the following Tuesday???  And they think ridership will increase???


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Qapla said:


> That's their old site/interface - the one they took away for this "better" site/interface
> 
> OK - I looked at a trip from JAX to CHI on Oct 9 - leaving Jax on a Friday
> 
> It says there is no train available and gave me the "the next available day" - Oct 13  So, I can't take a train to travel over the weekend??? I would have to wait until the following Tuesday???  And they think ridership will increase???


With the new schedules, Tuesday is the only option from Florida to Chicago (or points west of there). There are only three days with service from the NEC to Chicago and two of those are on SS days, which doesn't have a guaranteed connection to Chicago.


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## Qapla

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> With the new schedules, Tuesday is the only option from Florida to Chicago (or points west of there)



I know. That is the point. How do they expect bookings to increase when availability is so poor? Even though they say it is 3x weekly service and that Florida still has daily service with both Silvers running - that is not reality. As can be seen in this example - it is really only 1 day a week service.

Sad - Indeed!


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## brianpmcdonnell17

For anyone struggling to figure out connections, I made a Google Doc with the scheduled dates for each LD train at connection points. I also made bulleted lists of every current LD to LD connection that will become available on fewer than three days per week.









Amtrak Tri-Weekly Schedules


Chicago, IL Sunday 21 Monday 3 4 5 6 7 8 22 29 30 48 49 51 58 59 Tuesday 21 50 Wednesday 5 22 Thursday 3 4 6 7 8 29 30 48 49 50 51 58 59 Friday ...




docs.google.com


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## niemi24s

Tnx Brian. Those will be handy when I dream up fantasy trips - and maybe whenever I get to actually go on one of them!


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## dlagrua

This three day schedule is really a very bad thing for Amtrak as ridership will decline. We can only hope that congress intervenes but Oct 1st is now around the corner.


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## jruff001

Qapla said:


> And they think ridership will increase???


Amtrak has never suggested reducing the schedule will increase ridership. They are primarily to reduce costs; and also to better match the drastically-reduced Covid ridership levels.

(I don't want to spark a re-hash of the extensive prior arguments about the reductions. I only want to point out the purpose and expected result is not to increase ridership, which has been mentioned twice now.)


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## jis

jruff001 said:


> Amtrak has never suggested reducing the schedule will increase ridership. They are primarily to reduce costs; and also to better match the drastically-reduced Covid ridership levels.


It is to reduce current net cash outflow, even at the cost of having a negative impact on the financial account for the year since it is cash on hand that Amtrak is at the risk of running out of. And without cash to pay the bills there will be shutdown with really bad consequences. Now, whether this achieves that is a separate matter.


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## jruff001

jis said:


> It is to reduce current net cash outflow, even at the cost of having a negative impact on the financial account for the year since ot os cash on hand that Amtrak is at the risk of running out of. And without cash to pay the bills there will be shutdown with really bad consequences.


Yes, thank you. I was trying to keep it short but this captures it more fully.


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## 41bridge

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> For anyone struggling to figure out connections, I made a Google Doc with the scheduled dates for each LD train at connection points. I also made bulleted lists of every current LD to LD connection that will become available on fewer than three days per week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Tri-Weekly Schedules
> 
> 
> Chicago, IL Sunday 21 Monday 3 4 5 6 7 8 22 29 30 48 49 51 58 59 Tuesday 21 50 Wednesday 5 22 Thursday 3 4 6 7 8 29 30 48 49 50 51 58 59 Friday ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> docs.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOT
> 
> Better check your work at Cleveland. 2 columns for 29; none for 49.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Yes, the dates are the same at Cleevland for 29 and 49 so I didn't notice that. It has been fixed.


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## me_little_me

Qapla said:


> One can only hope (dream)


You mean fantasize?


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## Amtrakfflyer

Exactly think Allegiant they only fly 2-3x weekly but they make it obvious what days they do as does Spirit.



jis said:


> heck, even the worst airlines in the world are able to provide a calendar view of service availability including different fares available on each day. But not Amtrak. It is still trying to get into the 21st centurky while apparently regressing in actuality towards the 19th century.


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## Qapla

jruff001 said:


> Amtrak has never suggested reducing the schedule will increase ridership. They are primarily to reduce costs ... I only want to point out the purpose and expected result is not to increase ridership, which has been mentioned twice now.)



Be that as it may - they also said that the determining factor when they would return to a daily schedule is when bookings increase ... without good connections bookings will decline, not increase. As bookings decline the so-called "saving" will disappear. The 3x week schedule was a bad idea when they tried it before to "cut costs" - it didn't save money then and it won't save money now


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## jis

I am surprised that people refuse to see that this is mostly an exercise of Amtrak management holding Congress over a barrel. They don't really care whether bookings increase or decrease. They are counting on "we the traveling public" beating up on Congress to come up with the money to enable restoration of full service and adequately funding the infrastructure. If that fails then I don't think Amtrak management has any qualms at all about washing their hands off of the whole thing and letting whoever else wants to run it do so, and without adequate money there will be no one with half a brain that will walk into that quigmire, and Congress will be stuck requiring to come up with the funds required legally to shut the thing down. So either way they will have to come up with a substantial sum of money. The hope is that they will be pushed into continuing to fund and run it, yet another time. This is my current cynical position.


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## ShiningTimeStL

Fourth in a Series: Amtrak’s Impossible Demands - Railway Age


Time is running out for daily operation of Amtrak’s long-distance trains. It could also be running out for the very concept that a train could provide reliable transportation between far-flung communities every day, with same-day connections to other trains, at least in this country. With...




www.railwayage.com





I don't know how much more clearly you can lay it out than this. I don't understand how anyone can trust or believe anything Flynn or his people say anymore.


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## Thunder

Remember when everyone said if we dump Anderson and things would be good? I remember.

i also remember telling those same people they need to dump SG along with him.

Put Gallagher in as CEO. Or at least replace SG with him.


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## railiner

Thunder said:


> Remember when everyone said if we dump Anderson and things would be good? I remember.
> 
> i also remember telling those same people they need to dump SG along with him.
> 
> Put Gallagher in as CEO. Or at least replace SG with him.


Brian Gallagher? How's he doing? Back running trains on the Empire?


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## Thunder

Yes he is! He’s just as fiery as ever  I told him I’d love to see him on the board or in charge.

he asked “ what did I ever do to you?”


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## jis

railiner said:


> Brian Gallagher? How's he doing? Back running trains on the Empire?


Brian is doing fine. I exchange messages with him from time to time.


----------



## OBS

Thunder said:


> Yes he is! He’s just as fiery as ever  I told him I’d love to see him on the board or in charge.
> 
> he asked “ what did I ever do to you?”


Sounds exactly like Brian!


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Brian is doing fine. I exchange messages with him from time to time.


I had the good fortune to spend a good deal of time with him on the Autumn Excursion up the River Line...he 'held court' for most of the trip in the first car, where I was seated...


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## brianpmcdonnell17

I just attempted some fake bookings to test out the schedules and noticed something interesting. The corridor restorations, such as additional frequencies in the Midwest and the resumption of Vermont service, seem to be overly optimistic with cancellations occurring as the travel date nears if necessary. Meanwhile, the LDs are showing tri-weekly schedules indefinitely, despite the fact that a summer 2021 restoration would be within the booking period.


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## niemi24s

A few days ago, Arrow showed the Hiawatha and Michigan Services returning to their pre-Covid levels on 1 Mar 2021. But the states served may have a hand in that.


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## Thunder

We are running 383 packed now. Well with the half capacity restrictions anyway. Been running over 100 daily now due to WIU is my guess.

i am expecting us to start 382-381 again sooner rather than later.

depending on Pritzker that is


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## Siegmund

Thunder said:


> We are running 383 packed now. Well with the half capacity restrictions anyway.



I think that's the case for much of the national system - the Empire Builder was "selling out" regularly starting in June.

That's what I find hardest to stomach about the current cuts. Yes, they are losing money because of the virus - they could get some of it back by putting on extra coaches if they had them! - but demand has been very strong. It's very different from the early 70s years when they ran triweekly in winter because of low demand... that ended as they built traffic up.


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## jruff001

Siegmund said:


> That's what I find hardest to stomach about the current cuts. Yes, they are losing money because of the virus - they could get some of it back by putting on extra coaches if they had them! - but *demand has been very strong.* It's very different from the early 70s years when they ran triweekly in winter because of low demand... that ended as they built traffic up.


Wait - you don't believe the very low Covid-related ridership numbers?


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## Siegmund

I believe that trains ran nearly empty in April and May.

I am under the impression that since midsummer many/most trains have sold out their 50%-capped capacity over at least part of their runs, i.e., current ridership is as high as can be achieved until the virus comes under control.

I only see the Empire Builder go past on a regular basis - can tell you it expanded to its normal "summer length" (2nd sleeping cars added) in June. Random pics on the internet suggest the other long-distance trains regained their normal consists around the same time, after doing the one-coach-and-one-sleeper thing in the spring.


----------

