# Rental Car on Auto Train, Anyone Do It?



## Dovecote (Mar 8, 2015)

The major car rental companies are offering the annual drive out of Florida one way rental at the rate of $9.95 per day. This special runs from April-June. I am considering taking this offer and wondering if transporting the vehicle on the Auto Train is permissible per the rental company contract? I would use the rental car in the northeast for six days and drop it off at New York airport.

I did call one rental company and got a quick brushoff. The agent never heard of the Auto Train and without doing any research gave me a sheepish response "no you can not transport the vehicle". I asked the agent to quote the terms and conditions (t&c) that outline this exclusion. The agent just said that since there is no references of the Auto Train in the t&c so it is not allowed. I asked to speak to the supervisor but after waiting five minutes I hung up.

I then called a Sanford rental company direct. The agent on duty fortunately is aware of the Auto Train but was not aware of any exclusion permitting to transport the vehicle. He added that he has never experienced this type of situation.. The agent asked me to call back tomorrow and speak to the manager. I plan to do this but in the meantime has anyone traveled in the manner I propose to do?


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## SANSR (Mar 8, 2015)

I recall commentary a few years back, not on AU, but in the greater blogosphere that someone had done something similar; the only question that surfaced when the car was dropped off at the end point was how could there be so few miles on the vehicle (remember, there is 600+ miles in the autorack that do not advance the car's odometer), I'm not sure what the response was but I would have liked to be standing in line behind that renter just to see the agent's expression! In other words, how did you get this car from FL to VA since the starting and ending milage was far less than the drive distance between states???

Considering that you have to declare, at the time of rental, that you are either yes, or no, taking the vehicle out of the origination state, it stands to reason that any method of transport is allowable. (At least that is how I recall all of the pre-rental signatory questions the last time I rented a vehicle for personal use that was not in my home state. Things may have changed, and as always, your milage may vary. Yes, I know....a HORRIBLE pun.)


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## Palmland (Mar 8, 2015)

This was done by David P. Morgan, the noted former editor of Trains Magazine. It worked well for him, and it still makes sense - at those rates, if you want to travel on A-T rather than Meteor or Star. Maybe not as appealing as in his day when there were dome cars, great food in the diner, and first class lounge.


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## saxman (Mar 8, 2015)

I've done it. We just didn't tell them we were doing so. We were just taking it to Florida and back. Just didn't tell them how!


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2015)

Most rental agreements forbid any other person from driving the vehicle, unless such is declared when renting. Therefore, you can't as the renter sign any AT agreements that allow AT employees to drive the rental car on/off the train.


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## roadman3313 (Mar 8, 2015)

Definitely do your research on this before doing this as any violation of the rental contract pretty much places the liability on you for violating the terms. You might also consider getting the rental companies loss damage waver just in case, however that's null and void if the contract terms are violated anyway (including having a non-authorized driver operate the vehicle though most include provisions for emergencies and "valet" parking). I know they have provisions for driving "off-pavement" as well. I'm interested to see what the findings are as this is something that doesn't seem to be specifically excluded, however it could fall into other areas that do have certain provisions. Seems like a potential fuzzy grey area.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 8, 2015)

Don't Rental Car companies do positioning moves with their equipment based on season, special events etc. Perhaps Amtrak's Marketing Dept should look @ some kind of deal with the Rental Car Companies( they already work with Hertz and Enterprise thru AGR and package deals on Amtrak Vacations) that would allow Auto Train riders to do this?!! Win/Win!!!

"Drive away" companies would also be a possibility for this service!


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## sprof (Mar 8, 2015)

Guest said:


> Most rental agreements forbid any other person from driving the vehicle, unless such is declared when renting. Therefore, you can't as the renter sign any AT agreements that allow AT employees to drive the rental car on/off the train.


Under that theory, you could not use valet parking.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2015)

sprof said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Most rental agreements forbid any other person from driving the vehicle, unless such is declared when renting. Therefore, you can't as the renter sign any AT agreements that allow AT employees to drive the rental car on/off the train.
> ...


I was thinking exactly that. No rental company has ever disallowed valet parking as far as I know. At least I have let them know that the car will be valet parked at the hotel and they said that is fine.
OTOH I'd never buy insurance from a rental company. That is a complete ripoff. Get a credit card that provides primary insurance on rentals charged to it even if for a small fee.


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## neroden (Mar 8, 2015)

Jis: I've had to buy insurance from a rental car company, but that was back when I didn't have my own car so I didn't have my own auto insurance. I have never seen any credit card which will provide full liability & casualty coverage.

The rental car insurance price is actually reasonable if you have to get full coverage from zero (including coverage for injuries to yourself or liability for injuries to others). When you look at the price, remember that that's what they're charging you for -- the risk of multimillion dollar medical bills.

Most standard car insurance policies provide liability & casualty for you no matter what car you're driving, but only provide collision & comprehensive for *your* car. So if you've already got liability & casualty, which most drivers already have, then the rental car insurance rates become unreasonable. The credit card "coverage" generally covers the collision & property-damage stuff only.

(As you can see, I did my research on this more thoroughly than the average insurance agent!)


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 8, 2015)

If nothing at all goes wrong then presumably you'll get away with it. That being said if anything _does_ go wrong it's entirely on you. You'll be stuck with an exaggerated cost of finding and repairing any and all damage to which the car has been subjected. You'll also be penalized for intentional misuse of the vehicle, for misrepresentation of ownership, for allowing a non-contracted entity to possess and/or control the vehicle, and for loss of use of the vehicle while it suffers a series of bureaucratic delays on its way to eventually being repaired.

No loss damage waiver is going help you since they're written and vetted by the same company renting you the car in the first place. In all likelihood you'll be charged several times what any reasonable person would estimate the cost of repairs could be. If you're lucky your primary insurance agency or credit card company may end up paying for some of this (but probably not all of it). In any case the more they have to pay the more likely they are to penalize you with higher premiums and/or reduced benefits in the future.

I would suggest everyone viewing this thread sit down and read a car rental contract before replying. You're likely to see lots of eye opening revelations that you previously never noticed before. Unless you're amazingly careful chances are you've already broken one or more of the rental agreement terms every single time you've rented a car. So long as nothing ever goes wrong you're fine but the moment things start to go south you'll find the protections you assumed you had were nothing but an uneducated imagination.

For years rental companies have been quietly consolidating behind the scenes. For instance the last time I checked checked Avis owned Budget and Zipcar. Hertz owned Dollar and Thrifty. Enterprise owned National and Alamo. What you thought were a bunch of competitors are really just different brand names tied the same national conglomerates. Most if not all of these conglomerates have changed their pricing and polices in order to operate more like infamous nickle-and-dime airlines such as Ryanair and Spirit Airlines.

As a result of these and other changes we're entering an era where the bulk of rental company profits will come from sources other than renting the car itself. These changes are having a serious impact on the value and usefulness of potentially adverse car rental experiences and if you don't pay attention to how this industry is changing your $10 a day rental could end up costing you hundreds or even thousands of dollars in punitive charges and penalties.

Revisiting the original post what this whole situation really boils down to is how much you trust Amtrak not to mess anything up. Because once you're past the point of the car being damaged everyone involved is going to abandon you and throw your wallet to the wolves. They'll all have contracts which prove they're not liable for any of it and that you owe them a heap of money for misuse of their services. Best of luck if anything should go wrong.


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## Boats? (Mar 8, 2015)

This situation seems similar to taking a rental car on a ferry(vessel), which has to be a common occurrence the rental companies deal with. Thoughts?


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## FormerOBS (Mar 8, 2015)

I was aware that David P. Morgan traveled south on the old pre-Amtrak Auto Train when the service was first started. I have no idea whether these insurance issues were in place at the time, but I do remember that Morgan wrote about the questions that arose when he turned in the car in Florida with do little mileage.

I can say with complete confidence that Amtrak will not allow a passenger to drive the vehicle on or off the train. This is handled by employees of an Amtrak contractor.

Tom


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## neroden (Mar 8, 2015)

I've read a fair number of rental car contracts, because I always read end-to-end before signing. They're usually not actually very long. Apart from the ubiquitous "do not take this car outside the US & Canada" clause (you have to go to special agencies to take cars to Mexico), there usually aren't that many hidden gotchas.

Check for a valet clause and for a transportation clause. I've seen rental contracts which specifically allow valets (they'd be prohibited by default because the contract typically allows for specific named drivers), and which do *not* have any prohibition on transportation of the car by (flatbed, ferry, train, truck). On the other hand, I've seen rental contracts which do not allow valets, and which specifically prohibit transportation of the car by means other than driving it (so, you can't even get it towed without getting prior permission from the rental car company).

I suspect there's a bit of "you get what you pay for" going on here, as the more generous contracts were from the highest-end, most expensive rentals. I guess rich people are more likely to want to use valet parking, have a car shipped, etc.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2015)

I rent only from Hertz for personal use, so I know the content of their contract in some detail. When traveling on business paid for and insurance covered for by my employer it is Avis. In the last decade or so I have not touched any other rental company. So I don't know anything about them.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 9, 2015)

neroden said:


> I've read a fair number of rental car contracts, because I always read end-to-end before signing. They're usually not actually very long. Apart from the ubiquitous "do not take this car outside the US & Canada" clause (you have to go to special agencies to take cars to Mexico), there usually aren't that many hidden gotchas.


I'm not sure if you're simply not reading the full retail contract or if you're referring to contracts from several years ago or B2B contracts. In my experience there are numerous gotchas in most retail rental contracts.

In many cases you can no longer take a rental car off paved roads, in some cases even if there is construction or a detour from a paved road you had intention of traversing.

Most people are probably aware that there are penalties for returning the car late but few realize there are penalties for returning the car early as well. In some cases even just by an hour or two.

Presumably most people realize that they are responsible for tickets and fines but few may be aware that additional administrative penalties can be assessed on top of other violations.

In many cases if the original fines were incorrect and/or were resolved by the customer the penalty from the rental agency remains in effect.

Loss of use penalties are another gotcha that most agencies would be hard pressed to prove, but since you signed their lopsided contract you're at the mercy of their sole determination as to the value and legitimacy of the claimed loss.

These and other stipulations can be taken to court but you'll likely pay more fighting them than simply paying them off. In many cases customers are not held to the strictest interpretation of the contract.

Sometimes the enforcement is lax because the customer is considered extremely loyal (like Jis), or because the rental is on a more lenient B2B contract (employers and insurance agencies), but in most cases is probably due to the rental agency lacking actionable evidence that the rules were broken during the rental period. As vehicular monitoring and recording devices become more common and easier to leverage that oversight will eventually be rendered irrelevant.

Source: Numerous rentals from Advantage, Alamo, Avis, Budget, Dollar, Hertz, National, and Thrifty. Both here in the US and across multiple countries in the case of Avis, Dollar, Budget, Hertz, and Thrifty.


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## Meat Puppet (Mar 9, 2015)

Hertz states the following *Except to the extent necessary for valet parking or in an emergency as permitted by law, no other persons are permitted to operate the Car.*

I Have taken rentals on the AT many times. Never an issue.


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## rrdude (Mar 9, 2015)

Wish they had a "Drive out of Savannah" I'd hop on that in a NY minute in March.


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## jis (Mar 9, 2015)

Maybe you the well read of contracts can answer this. When I rent a car under say the Amtrak or United CDP does a corresponding B2B contract apply or is it just the rental rate, pasted onto a standard contract? What about when I use my employer's CDP? In that case I do know that a different B2B contract forms the basis of the rental. I have never quite figured out how this works.


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## lo2e (Mar 9, 2015)

Does anyone happen to know how often damage happens to vehicles on the AT? Is it extremely rare?


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## FormerOBS (Mar 9, 2015)

I sure don't have any statistics, but damage to vehicles is extremely rare. Several years ago, the claim rates were excessive, so Amtrak began a policy of videotaping the condition of vehicles at check-in. Immediately, Amtrak began to realize a significant savings in claims, which suggests that many earlier damage claims may have been fraudulent. I don't remember the figures, but I seem to recall that Amtrak immediately began to save well over $10,000 per month. It may have been much more. In the extremely unlikely event that your vehicle is damaged, there will be evidence of the prior condition of the vehicle, and a claim can be paid. In addition to working on that train for many years, I have ridden it as a passenger, with my car in the carriers. No problem.

Tom


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## neroden (Mar 9, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > I've read a fair number of rental car contracts, because I always read end-to-end before signing. They're usually not actually very long. Apart from the ubiquitous "do not take this car outside the US & Canada" clause (you have to go to special agencies to take cars to Mexico), there usually aren't that many hidden gotchas.
> ...


Well, it was a couple of years ago. Have things changed massively for the worse in the last two years or so? That would be very unfortunate.
There was one case where I actually crossed out a clause, initialed the change, and made the manager initial the change as well. That was quite a long time back. I can't remember exactly why: I think it had something to do with taking the car on a ferry, which was prohibited by a strict interpretation of the contract.

(And yes, if you're paying high, full-fare retail rates at a hungry local franchised branch, as opposed to an airport branch, *managers will do stuff like that*. They want the business.)


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## Dovecote (Mar 9, 2015)

Thanks to all who have responded to my inquiry and the healthy dialogue that has transpired. This AM I did call the manager of a Sanford rental company offering the Florida drive out rate. He could not answer my question stating he has never been aware of a rental car traveling on the Auto Train (AT) and whether it is permissible or not. His suggestion was to call the rental company Customer Service. I did make the call and again had to explain to the agent what the AT is all about. The agent representing Customer Service did not know the answer and offered to connect me to Reservations! I declined that offer. My conclusion is that this is a gray area that no one knows the right answer..

At this point I am unsure whether I will use the Auto Train for this trip. As a frequent AT rider, I have full confidence that the vehicle will arrive safe and sound. I plan to travel the day after Easter and rates are currently in the stratosphere. If the rates miraculously go down between now and then I will probably book a ride. Stay tuned.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 9, 2015)

Why would low mileage on the car be cause for alarm? Presumably rental companies want you to drive the vehicle as little as possible. I'd think

that the OP would be doing the company a favor by repositioning its vehicle in the most mileage-efficient way possible.


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## Ryan (Mar 9, 2015)

When you're returning a car at a location 1,000 miles from where you picked it up but only have 25 more miles on the odometer, they're going to wonder what the heck happened.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 9, 2015)

> RyanS, on 09 Mar 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:
> 
> When you're returning a car at a location 1,000 miles from where you picked it up but only have 25 more miles on the odometer, they're going to wonder what the heck happened.


Well, in theory yes, though I suspect most people would actually use it for more than 25 miles, unless they were specifically traveling from Sanford to Lorton. For

instance, the OP states:



Dovecote said:


> I would use the rental car in the northeast for six days and drop it off at New York airport.


If OP plans to use it in the northeast for six days, and at a minimum is driving from northern VA to the NYC metro area,

that would most likely add several hundred miles to the odometer, if not more. I doubt in this particular case, it would

raise any red flags.


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## jis (Mar 9, 2015)

A car that was picked up in Orlando and is dropped off in New York would be expected to have close to a thousand miles on it, not a few hundred.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 9, 2015)

jis said:


> A car that was picked up in Orlando and is dropped off in New York would be expected to have close to a thousand miles on it, not a few hundred.


Not if Michael J.Fox was driving/flying it! .

And since most rentals have " Unlimited mileage" included, the car companies shouldn't mind fewer miles on the odometer, they get their money anyway!


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## Ryan (Mar 9, 2015)

I'm not saying that they would mind, just that they'd be a little curious if $MILES_DRIVEN < $MILES_BETWEEN_LOCATIONS, which it most likely be if you skip the 800 or so miles done on the train.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 9, 2015)

jis said:


> A car that was picked up in Orlando and is dropped off in New York would be expected to have close to a thousand miles on it, not a few hundred.


Again, the OP says he is planning to "use it in the northeast for six days". I take this to imply some non-insignificant amount of driving.

Whether the extra driving adds up to the same amount of miles from Orlando to New York is almost beside the point. Do you really think

that at a busy NYC airport, where returning a car involves an agent scanning a bar code and spitting out a receipt--a process that takes

about 10 seconds--that the agent is really going to take the time to do the math or be cognizant of the actual expected miles from

Location A to Location B. Do people really know that it's 1000 miles from Orlando to New York, not 500?

Now, of course the computer system might flag it. But I'm guessing if the credit card clears and there's no damage to the vehicle, it's not

going to raise any alarm bells.


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## jis (Mar 9, 2015)

RyanS said:


> I'm not saying that they would mind, just that they'd be a little curious if $MILES_DRIVEN < $MILES_BETWEEN_LOCATIONS, which it most likely be if you skip the 800 or so miles done on the train.


It would be 855 miles for Auto Train as that is the credit that PRR gave me on the OTOL Amtrak mileage registration.


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## Ryan (Mar 9, 2015)

I was too lazy to look it up.


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## Dovecote (Mar 9, 2015)

Ok, let me chime in. My main concern happens to be returning the vehicle less than 1100 miles driven. That is the approximate miles from Orlando to New York LaGuardia airport. I anticipate putting on no more than 400 miles on the odometer if I utilize the Auto Train. This does throw out a red flag to the rental company in my opinion when returning the car. The manager of the car rental agency at the Sanford Airport doubted it would cause any issues at all when I discussed this matter earlier today. Then again it was his opinion and not a fact.


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## jis (Mar 9, 2015)

Dovecote said:


> Ok, let me chime in. My main concern happens to be returning the vehicle less than 1100 miles driven. That is the approximate miles from Orlando to New York LaGuardia airport. I anticipate putting on no more than 400 miles on the odometer if I utilize the Auto Train. This does throw out a red flag to the rental company in my opinion when returning the car. The manager of the car rental agency at the Sanford Airport doubted it would cause any issues at all when I discussed this matter earlier today. Then again it was his opinion and not a fact.


I would be very surprised if anyone will be able to give you a sworn fact on this one, unless you ask for a legal opinion from their lawyers through your lawyer, or something absurd like that.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 9, 2015)

Since its been done before by AUers ( and I'm sure others) you probably should just go for it if you can get a good Bucket for the trip! ( Northbound is usually High Bucket this time of year as the Snowbirds return Home)

Keep you us informed and have a good trip!


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## fairviewroad (Mar 9, 2015)

Dovecote said:


> Ok, let me chime in. My main concern happens to be returning the vehicle less than 1100 miles driven. That is the approximate miles from Orlando to New York LaGuardia airport. I anticipate putting on no more than 400 miles on the odometer if I utilize the Auto Train. This does throw out a red flag to the rental company in my opinion when returning the car. The manager of the car rental agency at the Sanford Airport doubted it would cause any issues at all when I discussed this matter earlier today. Then again it was his opinion and not a fact.


Returning a car with 400 elapsed miles is routine. It's only a red flag if the return agent makes the mental calculation about how many miles "should" be

on the car. And again, unless the computer flags it, I think it's a moot point. The real concern is the time the vehicle is out of your control, either in the

hands of an Amtrak employee or on the train itself. I'd guess that statistically you're more likely to damage the car during the six days of northeast driving.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 9, 2015)

There seems to be no set answer to your question. My guess is that the employee at the end of the rental would not even notice the difference in mileage. The last time I rented a car, the return employee was a guy in a garage with an electronic gizmo that printed out a receipt. I doubt if he even noticed how many miles I had driven. Chances are that the odds are your side.


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## lo2e (Mar 10, 2015)

If you're worried about what the return mileage looks like, just drive around the Beltway a few times after you arrive in Lorton to gain some miles. Problem solved! h34r:


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## FormerOBS (Mar 10, 2015)

lo2e:

Yeah. Problem solved at the expense of your sanity.

Tom


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## neutralist (Mar 10, 2015)

roadman3313 said:


> (including having a non-authorized driver operate the vehicle though most include provisions for emergencies and "valet" parking).


Loading and unloading from the train probably qualify as "valet" parking.


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## jis (Mar 10, 2015)

neutralist said:


> roadman3313 said:
> 
> 
> > (including having a non-authorized driver operate the vehicle though most include provisions for emergencies and "valet" parking).
> ...


Specially compared to valet parking that is five blocks away, loading and unloading from the train is much less risk prone anyway.


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## me_little_me (Mar 10, 2015)

fairviewroad said:


> Returning a car with 400 elapsed miles is routine. It's only a red flag if the return agent makes the mental calculation about how many miles "should" be
> 
> on the car. And again, unless the computer flags it, I think it's a moot point. The real concern is the time the vehicle is out of your control, either in the
> 
> hands of an Amtrak employee or on the train itself. I'd guess that statistically you're more likely to damage the car during the six days of northeast driving.


Mental calculation? You are assuming that rental car return agents can do more than plug the numbers into the computer correctly and find the most minute scratches that you missed when you signed for the car and for which you are now blamed. :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: [ Three smiley sarcasm]


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## MARC Rider (Mar 10, 2015)

Guest said:


> Most rental agreements forbid any other person from driving the vehicle, unless such is declared when renting. Therefore, you can't as the renter sign any AT agreements that allow AT employees to drive the rental car on/off the train.


That's interesting. Does that mean you can't use valet parking if you're driving a rental car? Sometimes valet parking is all that's offered by hotels, restaurants, parking garages, etc.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 10, 2015)

MARC Rider said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Most rental agreements forbid any other person from driving the vehicle, unless such is declared when renting. Therefore, you can't as the renter sign any AT agreements that allow AT employees to drive the rental car on/off the train.
> ...


Oh well, I see others have beat me to the "valet parking" issue. That'll teach me to read the whole thread before I post.


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## Train2104 (Mar 14, 2015)

Found this dash cam video on YouTube of the car loading/unloading process:


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## Ryan (Mar 14, 2015)

That's an awesome video, thanks for sharing.


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## fairviewroad (Mar 17, 2015)

Yeah, that was a cool video. Having never been on the AT, I had no idea that they drive the cars "through" the train like that...but

it made perfect sense once I thought about it.

I wonder what the speed record is for driving inside of a train. :blink:

Seems like the employees in the video were doing a good job, though. It's funny that the guy turned

on the radio at the end so he could listen for all of 20 seconds or so.


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## lo2e (Mar 17, 2015)

fairviewroad said:


> I wonder what the speed record is for driving inside of a train. :blink:


Haha, I had the same thought - at one point it looked like it was going along pretty quick inside there! 

It almost looks like there are tracks inside the car carriers for the car wheels to go in so that the car stays away from the sides of the carrier. Can anyone confirm whether this is the case?


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## FormerOBS (Mar 17, 2015)

The "tracks" are a sort of trough.


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## lo2e (Mar 18, 2015)

FormerOBS said:


> The "tracks" are a sort of trough.


Thanks, that's what I meant to say, but the word "trough" just wasn't coming to me.


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## ScottRu (Mar 18, 2015)

OBS Chief, thanks for that video. We've taken the Auto Train many, many times ... and I've always WONDERED what happened inside those huge car-carrier cars!


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## DivMiler (Mar 20, 2015)

Train2104 said:


> Found this dash cam video on YouTube of the car loading/unloading process:


Thank you for posting that video. As one who has never taken the Auto Train (I hope to one day), it was nice to see the handing off procedure, as well as what my car would "see".


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## Railroad Bill (Mar 20, 2015)

We took the AT two years ago and always in awe of the organization to board hundreds of cars in the allotted time. Wondered how many employees are working at the loading and unloading process. And of course, the trusty dog sniff of the cars was funny also. Wonder how many hits they get in a given day on both ends."  Thanks for posting this informative video..


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## Long Train Runnin' (Mar 20, 2015)

Very interesting video. Much like fairviewroad it makes total sense that the car would drive through multiple auto racks just had never thought about it like that.


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## Ryan (Mar 21, 2015)

fairviewroad said:


> It's funny that the guy turned
> 
> on the radio at the end so he could listen for all of 20 seconds or so.


Since it came on just when he came out of the car, I'll bet it was satellite radio - the radio probably came on automatically when the car was started and just picked up a signal when they emerged from the train car.


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## drfonta (Oct 8, 2019)

Refreshing an old thread here. Anybody have any new info on this? In the past I have done rental vehicles on the auto train with no issues but curious if anyone has run into problems. I really love the auto train and doing it with a rental really works well in my situation.


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## Qapla (Oct 8, 2019)

I guess a "big guy" would have a problem getting in and/or out of the vehicle once inside the train.


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## OBS (Oct 9, 2019)

drfonta said:


> Refreshing an old thread here. Anybody have any new info on this? In the past I have done rental vehicles on the auto train with no issues but curious if anyone has run into problems. I really love the auto train and doing it with a rental really works well in my situation.


It worked well in my situation when my family did it 2 years ago...


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