# Sleeping Car – Non-Berth Service



## dart330 (Jul 31, 2011)

I was getting ready to ask if there was any way to book 4 adults in a bedroom or family bedroom for a daytime trip. I then saw the post with the Amtrak Service Manual and there was the information.



> 8. Sleeping Car – Non-Berth Servicea) For non-berth service (use seats only – no beds) in Sleeping Car accommodations, the maximum allowable number of passengers permitted to occupy the room is shown in the following chart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I would like to do with 4 people in a bedroom. Has anyone every successfully done this? Would also be great if it is allowed through AGR.


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## dart330 (Jul 31, 2011)

I called to try and book a trip and was told that it is not possible. Specifically said non-berth, just using the 4 seats in the room.

I imagine most agents have never heard of this policy...


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## Acela150 (Jul 31, 2011)

4 adults in a Family bedroom isn't possible as two beds are fit for kids. Four adults in a Bedroom suite is what you would want to do.


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## dart330 (Jul 31, 2011)

Acela150 said:


> 4 adults in a Family bedroom isn't possible as two beds are fit for kids. Four adults in a Bedroom suite is what you would want to do.


I am talking strictly non-bed usage. There are 4 seats in a bedroom, want to book 4 adults for a day long trip. The policy quoted above specifically states that it is possible.


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## The Davy Crockett (Jul 31, 2011)

Call back and try again. If your still told 'no', ask for a supervisor. Tell the supervisor what you want and explain to them where you got the information that this is 'legal' to do. I've not tried to book what your seeking, and I don't know if you'll get what you want, but I think this would be your 'best bet'.


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## Dovecote (Jul 31, 2011)

dart330 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > 4 adults in a Family bedroom isn't possible as two beds are fit for kids. Four adults in a Bedroom suite is what you would want to do.
> ...


Your point is well taken and I suggest you call again to speak to another agent and hope for better results. For the heck of it, I tried to book a similar request on the Amtrak site with negative results. Specifically it was a "day trip" on the Crescent from ATL to NOL for a bedroom with 4 passengers. I was prompted with the following statement "Problem with Selected Accommodations: The accommodation you have selected is too small to accommodate the number of people traveling. Please select a different accommodation or increase the number of accommodations. Or, for additional assistance, please call 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245) [Error ID:116A]".

As you previously stated, most agents probably never heard of the non-berth service in a sleeping car. Maybe speaking to a supervisor and quoting the non-berth policy would help in your quest. Just a thought. Good luck.


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## the_traveler (Jul 31, 2011)

If is it for more than 2 people in the sleeper (or 2 adults and 2 children in a Family Room), you *MUST* call to book - you can not book online! If it is for a day trip, explain the rule, and you may get away with it.


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## George B (Jul 31, 2011)

Dovecote said:


> For the heck of it, I tried to book a similar request on the Amtrak site with negative results. Specifically it was a "day trip" on the Crescent from ATL to NOL for a bedroom with 4 passengers.


With the way schedules are being disrupted these days on some trains, a “day trip” just might turn in to an overnighter! It happened to me about a month ago, and I was glad I decided to get the sleeper. I got three meals and lots of sleep on a day trip that was only 400 miles. I was on-board so long that I almost made it to breakfast the next day! :wacko:


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## jmbgeg (Jul 31, 2011)

dart330 said:


> I called to try and book a trip and was told that it is not possible. Specifically said non-berth, just using the 4 seats in the room.
> 
> I imagine most agents have never heard of this policy...


Perhaps you could tell the agent or supervisor what page and paragraph in the Amtrak Services Manual authorizes this, and that you are willing to wait on the phone while they verify that; or if you are close to a station with ticket agents, print that page; go to the station and show the agent in person that this arrangement is authorized.


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## EB_OBS (Jul 31, 2011)

dart330 said:


> I was getting ready to ask if there was any way to book 4 adults in a bedroom or family bedroom for a daytime trip. I then saw the post with the Amtrak Service Manual and there was the information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hehe, you all are gonna drive Amtrak employees nuts with this manual. Ha!


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## dlagrua (Jul 31, 2011)

We've encountered 3 adults in a bedroom but mostly during daylight hours. On the AutoTrain it is common to see 2 adults and a child in a bedroom but we've never seen 3 adults sharing one probably due to the fact that it's a non-stop largely overnight route. Unless the people in the bedroom are on the small side you'd be very cramped in there. My wife and myself are both 6' tall and you just aren't getting more than two adults in our room.


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## Ryan (Jul 31, 2011)

Depends on who you're with. The wife and I share the bottom bunk, and we'll keep on going with the kid in the top bunk for as long as Amtrak will let us.


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## dart330 (Jul 31, 2011)

We just completed a 4 day trip with a bedroom suite. During the day we mostly all sat in one room, 3 on the couch and 1 in the chair as we shared our private stock and enjoyed the scenery. We only needed the 2nd room for sleeping.

I got the same agent 3 calls in a row, so I am going to try again tomorrow and use the suggestions above.


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## the_traveler (Jul 31, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> Hehe, you all are gonna drive Amtrak employees nuts with this manual. Ha!


Don't we already?



And we do it without the manual!


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## abcnews (Aug 1, 2011)

I was so happy to see this. We often travel 3 adults in a BR - since we have a large family (7). When we took the Auto train last August my son could not make it - which worked out as far as points. I used two 20,000 BR awards for two BRs (3 daughters in one, and my wife and I, and our 10 year old daughter in our BR).

But we could use this to take four people to NYC on the Silver Star. The Star hits Richmond at about 12:30 PM os so - and gets up to NYP at about 7 PM. With this policy we could opt for Silver Service (20,000 points) over Northeast Direct (12,000 points for 4 coach seats). Then we could all enjoy lunch in the diner.

I like the larger windows in the Viewliner Sleepers. Plus - our own private restroom and sink. And bottled water too.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 1, 2011)

dart330 said:


> > • *If, however, four passengers want to travel in the room and use it for seating only, three can sit on the sofa and one in the chair. Therefore, the maximum number of passengers increases from three (regular use) to four (non-berth service).*
> 
> 
> This is exactly what I would like to do with 4 people in a bedroom. Has anyone every successfully done this? Would also be great if it is allowed through AGR.


Is "*non-berth service*" AMTRAK-speak for a day-time only booking? Where, your origin and your destination would need to be on the same day, and not overnight?


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## Ryan (Aug 1, 2011)

No. From the part quoted above:



> • Although this situation usually occurs during daytime travel, this policy is based on the use of the accommodation – not the time of day or night.


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## RRrich (Aug 1, 2011)

Can we put 4 in a BR if the chair has been removed? :unsure: Happened to me on the LSL - wifey wanted to streach out on the couch but I had nowhere to sit. :help:


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## abcnews (Aug 1, 2011)

An example of that option is the Silver Meteor - Departs Richmond at 4:30 AM and arrives at NYP at around 10:30 or 11 AM. Although it is dark - the 4 adults would have only seating in the BR on the sofa (3) and the reclining chair (1). But I guess they all get breakfast when the diner opens.

The upgrade fee on that train for a Tuesday AM in December shows $215 for the bedroom. But that would include breakfast for 4 in the diner. The AGR 20,000 award would include rail passage for all 4 of $119 each - plus theBedroom. But I do wonder if the AGR agent would actually go for this? The total cost is about right - $119 x 4 = $476 plus $215. The total is $691. Not really the best use of points - but if they did allow you to use points, it would be a better use - if it was last minute, and the fares were higher (high bucket).


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Aug 1, 2011)

Ryan said:


> No. From the part quoted above:
> 
> 
> 
> > • Although this situation usually occurs during daytime travel, this policy is based on the use of the accommodation – not the time of day or night.


Well, then this doesn't make sense to me. Why would someone book a bedroom, but commit to only "non-berth" usage (ie, no night-time configuration requested/allowed), if traveling overnight?


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## Ryan (Aug 1, 2011)

Because if we're a party of 4, it's slightly nicer to sleep in a chair in a room where it's just the 4 of us? Use of a private bathroom/shower would be nice, as well as the ability to bring along a little private stock if its "that kind" of a trip?

It doesn't necessarily have to be overnight, either - what if I'm taking a train from 6 PM until 2 AM, and I just plan on staying awake until I'm off the train?


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## dart330 (Aug 1, 2011)

I would not book it for an overnighter, but there are still several advantages to sitting in a bedroom over coach.

-private stock (booze) & ice

-private bathroom

-all meals included

-priority boarding

-1st class lounge access

The trip I am looking at, the bedroom is $165 for the day. 4 people with 2 meals each and it has almost paid for itself, plus we can legally bring our own alcohol and not try to sneak it in coach.


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## abcnews (Aug 1, 2011)

Another example - Atlanta to NOL - all day across the deep south on the Crescent. Usually a few BRs available once they depart Atlanta. Or four people in Birmingham could hop over to New Orleans for the evening. Nice way to get there...

Add to that - NOL to Memphis.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 1, 2011)

abcnews said:


> Another example - Atlanta to NOL - all day across the deep south on the Crescent. Usually a few BRs available once they depart Atlanta.


The last time I took the Crescent I was impressed by the large number of sleeper passengers who boarded at Atlanta bound for New Orleans. I had assumed the low roomette rates you often see meant that the cars traveled nearly empty. I was wrong, at least on that day.

Another example: New York to Alexandria on the Crescent. You get to use the Club Acela, you don't worry about boarding, and you get dinner in the diner, all for significantly less than Acela First Class.


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## dart330 (Aug 2, 2011)

I asked the AGR Insider about this on FlyerTalk and she stated that it is not allowed to be booked on an award trip.


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## jb64 (Aug 2, 2011)

I just returned from a long trip and on the California Zephyr, we were traveling coach from Helper Utah to Chicago. As soon as we boarded, we notified our car attendant that we would like to upgrade to a sleeper. There were two adults and two 13 yr olds. The conductor came to us and said they only had a bedroom left, but all four of us could have it since they were oversold on coach seats and could use our seats. So, they booked all four of us in a bedroom for an overnight journey (therefore, not non-berth). The dining crew only allowed us three meals, though. It was okay for four during the day but very crowded with the beds made up. My son and I shared the upper berth because the other 13 yr old boy was much heavier than my son. I was amazed that we could both fit in the upper berth, but we did. I can't say it was the best night's sleep I got, but we did get some rest.


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## Ryan (Aug 2, 2011)

dart330 said:


> I asked the AGR Insider about this on FlyerTalk and she stated that it is not allowed to be booked on an award trip.


Even better than the Service Standards manual, I'd love for someone to FOIA the rulebook for AGR, which at this point in time seems to be "Whatever they feel like doing".

On topic, I think that you should be able to get away with this. Looking at the differences between the "berth" and "non-berth" sections, In the "berth" section, you can put 4 in a bedroom as long as 2 (or more) of the passengers are children. In the "non-berth" section, the max that you can do in a bedroom is 4 in any combination.

Since AGR doesn't differentiate between child and adult tickets, just tell them that 2 of the people are children, give them all 4 names and there shouldn't be an issue.


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## dart330 (Aug 2, 2011)

I just successfully booked 4 adults into a bedroom. After the reservation agent was unable to do it I was transferred to customer service. I quoted them the policy and I was put on hold while they called a support desk. The support person had been there 20 years and had never heard of the policy, had to look it up to verify, claimed it was a new policy. They booked the first 2 in the room, then made a second reservation that says

"Open

Seats/Rooms:

1 Bedroom

(Open-Space Has Not Been Reserved)"

They then linked the two reservations and said the conductor's manifest would show that all 4 are in the same room. It only took an hour on the phone to book.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 2, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Even better than the Service Standards manual, I'd love for someone to FOIA the rulebook for AGR, which at this point in time seems to be "Whatever they feel like doing".


Oh, come on, you know there's no rulebook for AGR.


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 2, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Even better than the Service Standards manual, I'd love for someone to FOIA the rulebook for AGR, which at this point in time seems to be "Whatever they feel like doing".
> ...


:lol:

As my Dad use to say: "Run into the roundhouse Nellie, 'cause they can't corner you there!"


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## Dovecote (Aug 2, 2011)

dart330 said:


> I just successfully booked 4 adults into a bedroom. After the reservation agent was unable to do it I was transferred to customer service. I quoted them the policy and I was put on hold while they called a support desk. The support person had been there 20 years and had never heard of the policy, had to look it up to verify, claimed it was a new policy. They booked the first 2 in the room, then made a second reservation that says
> 
> "Open
> 
> ...


Good for you! By the way, what is your starting and ending points? Were you able to book this as an AGR redemption? And please let us know if meals were complimentary for all four passengers. Hopefully you have opened the door for others that will follow in your footsteps. If so, thanks!


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## abcnews (Aug 2, 2011)

dart330 said:


> I just successfully booked 4 adults into a bedroom. After the reservation agent was unable to do it I was transferred to customer service. I quoted them the policy and I was put on hold while they called a support desk. The support person had been there 20 years and had never heard of the policy, had to look it up to verify, claimed it was a new policy. They booked the first 2 in the room, then made a second reservation that says
> 
> "Open
> 
> ...


Good Job! Now it may be a little easier for the rest of us.


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## dart330 (Aug 2, 2011)

This was not an AGR award and according to the AGR Insider it is not possible to book as such. We are traveling from OKC to SAS roundtrip with the room from FTW to SAS and back. I did not ask about meals but will be carrying a copy of the policy in case there are any questions.

If you are going to try and book one of these, just go straight to customer service and skip the reservation agent.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 2, 2011)

jb64 said:


> So, they booked all four of us in a bedroom for an overnight journey (therefore, not non-berth). The dining crew only allowed us three meals, though. It was okay for four during the day but very crowded with the beds made up.


Sounds like the LSA in the Diner needs some Training/Updating! :help: Since the Conductor upgraded yall to a Bedroom for 4 (2 Adults/2 Teens), seems that the Family Room which allows 4 persons (2 Adults/2 Children) with Meals is the same as 4 in a Bedroom! :wacko: You should have received the 4th Meal the way I read the Policy! :excl: :excl: :excl:


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 2, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> jb64 said:
> 
> 
> > So, they booked all four of us in a bedroom for an overnight journey (therefore, not non-berth). The dining crew only allowed us three meals, though. It was okay for four during the day but very crowded with the beds made up.
> ...


This seems to cause a lot of confusion. I had dinner one time with a woman and her two grandkids who were sharing a roomette. She was told when she booked that all three of their meals were included. On the way out she had no problems, but on her return trip, when I was with them for dinner, the LSA gave her a really hard time about it - to the point where she finally said, to heck with it, I'll pay for one of the kid's dinners.

I wonder what The Manual says?


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## me_little_me (Aug 2, 2011)

dart330 said:


> I just successfully booked 4 adults into a bedroom. After the reservation agent was unable to do it I was transferred to customer service. I quoted them the policy and I was put on hold while they called a support desk. The support person had been there 20 years and had never heard of the policy, had to look it up to verify, claimed it was a new policy. They booked the first 2 in the room, then made a second reservation that says
> 
> "Open
> 
> ...


I had a roomette for us and a BR for the kids and infant son (daytime travel) and had booked a separate ticket for a friend traveling with us. When I called, I told them the online system would not allow me to book 3 in a BR for daytime travel. The agent checked and said it was OK to do but online can't handle it. She "linked" the reservations and that fifth person has the same comment as yours. Agent said there should be no problem. I hope not.

Note this was done before we all saw the policy. I am taking a copy of the policy with me in case of a problem.


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## amamba (Aug 2, 2011)

I seem to recall a post where the EB_OBS poster said it was possible for bedrooms to include meals for up to four adults. Maybe from about six months ago. Let me see if the search feature will let me find it....


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## amamba (Aug 2, 2011)

Found it!

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/28518-bedroom-with-3-adults-3-meals/page__st__20__p__181638#entry181638


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## visitor (Aug 2, 2011)

Acela150 said:


> 4 adults in a Family bedroom isn't possible as two beds are fit for kids. Four adults in a Bedroom suite is what you would want to do.


As a conductor, I have to disagree: the total number of persons allowed to book into a Family Bedroom is 5, no matter the age or size. For overnight, it would be wildly uncomfortable, but for day, totally allowable. And you get 5 meals each meal period...just make sure all 5 names are on the manifest for that room!


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## jb64 (Aug 3, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > jb64 said:
> ...


I have to say that while they were also much less effecient than the staff on the Cap Ltd or EB, they were also much less friendly and almost rude. So, we didn't press the issue. Now that AMAMBA found the thread with the policy, perhaps a call to customer service is worthwhile, especially with some of the other issues. The assistant conductor who handled our upgrade onboard was very nice and accomodating. She was also very new. I hope she keeps her friendly, helpful attitude over time and doesn't become jaded.


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## Ryan (Aug 3, 2011)

visitor said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > 4 adults in a Family bedroom isn't possible as two beds are fit for kids. Four adults in a Bedroom suite is what you would want to do.
> ...


You should check your paperwork again, as 6 is also possible.


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## trainman74 (Aug 3, 2011)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I had dinner one time with a woman and her two grandkids who were sharing a roomette. She was told when she booked that all three of their meals were included. On the way out she had no problems, but on her return trip, when I was with them for dinner, the LSA gave her a really hard time about it - to the point where she finally said, to heck with it, I'll pay for one of the kid's dinners.
> I wonder what The Manual says?


Page 8-184:



> • Dining Car meals will apply to all_ passengers who have been ticketed_ into a Sleeping Car accommodation. If an employee is occupying BT space, they are not entitled to the meal amenity.• In some cases, a passenger may have a ticket for a Sleeping Car that reads "OPEN" – with no specific car or accommodation number. This situation may arise when individuals are traveling together and sharing the room, and there is some sort of unique situation such as the passengers did not pick up their tickets at the same time or a passenger is riding with a pass rider or the city pairs are not the same. As long as passengers have a ticket indicating Sleeping Car accommodations, they are to be provided complimentary meals.


(Italics in the first bullet point are as in the manual.)


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## Ryan (Aug 3, 2011)

The real question is that why are so many Amtrak employees so misinformed about what the rules actually are?


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## Train2104 (Aug 3, 2011)

Ryan said:


> The real question is that why are so many Amtrak employees so misinformed about what the rules actually are?


I don't think they are given periodic examinations on it, or even any exam at all.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 3, 2011)

Ryan said:


> The real question is that why are so many Amtrak employees so misinformed about what the rules actually are?


I'd guess that like most handouts, when Amtrak employees are given updates or new manuals they file em and forget em! Most people that have been on any job for awhile settle into the routine and get comfortable with the status quo! As has been said, the training in Amtrak is poor to non-existant! Bet the suits that write these things couldnt pass an exam on lots of rules and policies!  Rules Examaniers used to be lots more prevelant and strict back in the day according to old timers! :help:


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## Train2104 (Aug 3, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > The real question is that why are so many Amtrak employees so misinformed about what the rules actually are?
> ...


Since the employee always has the manual with them when on the job, he/she can just refer to it for the less-common situations rather than give false information from their memory or just an "I don't know". But why don't they do that?


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## Ryan (Aug 3, 2011)

Because nobody is pushing them to. I'm sure there are exceptions, but overall middle management seems to be somewhat lacking at Amtrak.


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## rrdude (Aug 3, 2011)

En*forcement* of the existing rule is what I feel is lacking. And that I blame, *squarely on the Unions representing the OBS workers*.

Oh how I HATED TO PAY MY UNION DUES, (but loved the Union fighting for me for better wages, I know, hypocrite)

When I worked for Amtrak on board, it was "almost impossible" to get written up for not doing your job correctly, or doing it poorly. And even if you were written up, the Union rep was there, without even reading the reason, to defend the employee. (I guess that is there job, but I swear, it's more about PROTECTING the union, than providing "world class service" to the traveling public)

I had more employees telling me to "slow down" or "not do so much" 'cause you will make "us" look bad, than I ever had issues with pax. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm sure I was unprofessionally curt with a pax or two (or a few) after three turns on the Chief, or a few runs on some of the midwest trains that serve colleges on a Friday or a Sunday.

But improving service, or at least getting the staff to adhere to existing policies would certainly be a staff. But Ryan is also correct when he says that "middle mgmt is lacking........"

There just aren't enuff spotters, train chiefs, or others in mgmt riding Amtrak, and keeping track of the employees, and their misdeeds. (or for that manner, PRAISING employees when they go "above and beyond")

Better than it was in the past? Yup. But they have a long way to go. I think by and large the T&E staff has improved the most over the years. "Back in the day" you had some real SOB's working as conductors and A/C. Some of them made life miserable for both OBS employees, and the traveling public.


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## EB_OBS (Aug 3, 2011)

amamba said:


> Found it!
> 
> http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/28518-bedroom-with-3-adults-3-meals/page__st__20__p__181638#entry181638



Good memory. That is still the current policy in effect.


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## AlanB (Aug 4, 2011)

rrdude said:


> When I worked for Amtrak on board, it was "almost impossible" to get written up for not doing your job correctly, or doing it poorly. And even if you were written up, the Union rep was there, without even reading the reason, to defend the employee. (I guess that is there job, but I swear, it's more about PROTECTING the union, than providing "world class service" to the traveling public)


As Eric (GG-1) will tell you, the union by law must fight for you even if the union thinks that management is right. They don't have a choice in the matter. Failing to fight could see the Fed dissolving or fining the union.



rrdude said:


> Better than it was in the past? Yup. But they have a long way to go. I think by and large the T&E staff has improved the most over the years. "Back in the day" you had some real SOB's working as conductors and A/C. Some of them made life miserable for both OBS employees, and the traveling public.


We found one of those conductors on the City of NOL out of Memphis two weeks ago. A man on a real power trip claiming that his way of doing things is the policy, which thanks to the release of the manual has now confirmed what we knew all along, that it wasn't policy.


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 4, 2011)

AlanB said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > Better than it was in the past? Yup. But they have a long way to go. I think by and large the T&E staff has improved the most over the years. "Back in the day" you had some real SOB's working as conductors and A/C. Some of them made life miserable for both OBS employees, and the traveling public.
> ...




Alan, I think you bring up an intersting point that I'll be mulling over a bit. I've usually tried to just go along with things in a non-confrontational way when aboard, even when experience and/or common sense tells me that the employee is full of it. I think that is going to be be a little tougher to do now, especially when I'm in a situation where I've read the section of The Manual that applies to that particular scenario and what is being said is completely over-the-top. I don't think for me it will be that big of a deal, but the temptation will be greater to challenge. On the other side, I wonder if: 1) it might make staff just a wee bit more likely to hesitate at being completely full of it, or 2) will they strike back harder if someone even mentions The Manual?


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## amtrakwolverine (Aug 4, 2011)

The staff could just say " the policy's changed this is the new way of doing things now" etc.


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## rrdude (Aug 4, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> The staff could just say " the policy's changed this is the new way of doing things now" etc.


And if they are going to be confrontational to you, you simply whip out your cell, and start calling Amtrak's toll free number for customer support.


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## GG-1 (Aug 4, 2011)

AlanB said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > When I worked for Amtrak on board, it was "almost impossible" to get written up for not doing your job correctly, or doing it poorly. And even if you were written up, the Union rep was there, without even reading the reason, to defend the employee. (I guess that is there job, but I swear, it's more about PROTECTING the union, than providing "world class service" to the traveling public)
> ...


Aloha

This the reason we all suggest that any complaint be written. A well documented complaint will show that the employee was treated fairly and by the rules. This is a major obligation of the union, to insure the rules are followed. And by the way, no union officer wants to see bad workers, makes contract negotiations that much harder.


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## jb64 (Aug 4, 2011)

EB_OBS said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > Found it!
> ...


So, we upgraded to a bedroom on my recent Zephyr trip and the conductor had no problem with us all (2 adults and 2 children) going into the bedroom but the LSA would only allow three meals. Based on this thread, I called customer relations and spoke to an agent who insisted that we should not have been allowed to put all four in the bedroom and we were only allowed 3 meals. I quoted her from the above and she insisted that was not correct. She stated she used to be a ticket agent and she knew that only three people could be booked in a bedroom and only three got meals. So, my second overall call to customer service has been as helpful as my first (not at all). :angry:


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 4, 2011)

Keep trying. This morning I made a reservation online on #14 for a roomette. I called Julie and found out I'd been assigned a lower level roomette. My preference is an upper level roomette, so I called back and spoke to an agent. He was not very friendly or cheerful, but said he would check and, after a couple of minutes of complete silence (which seemed odd, as you can usually hear some background noise when a service agent is working on a reservation, and I was not on hold) he told me that no other roomettes were available, not even in the dorm/sleeper. I called back after a couple of minutes and spoke to a very cheerful and friendly agent. As if by magic, she found several upper level roomettes for me to choose from!


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## Ryan (Aug 4, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> And by the way, no union officer wants to see bad workers, makes contract negotiations that much harder.


I'd amend that to say "most union officers". The union for the local WMATA workers is TERRIBLE.


jb64 said:


> So, we upgraded to a bedroom on my recent Zephyr trip and the conductor had no problem with us all (2 adults and 2 children) going into the bedroom but the LSA would only allow three meals. Based on this thread, I called customer relations and spoke to an agent who insisted that we should not have been allowed to put all four in the bedroom and we were only allowed 3 meals. I quoted her from the above and she insisted that was not correct. She stated she used to be a ticket agent and she knew that only three people could be booked in a bedroom and only three got meals. So, my second overall call to customer service has been as helpful as my first (not at all). :angry:


Hopefully you have the name of the agent? That gets into "sternly worded letter" time in my book, not only complaining about the LSA, but the poorly trained call agents. Bonus points if you print out the relevant page and include it with the letter.


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## AlanB (Aug 4, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> The staff could just say " the policy's changed this is the new way of doing things now" etc.


To which, at least in my case with that conductor, I would have responded: "Um, I just boarded the Crescent in NY on Sunday and their policy there was the one that I see in this manual. And I just boarded the Crescent in Atlanta on Tuesday and again their policy was the one in the manual. So clearly there hasn't been a change in policy."


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## jb64 (Aug 4, 2011)

Ryan said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > And by the way, no union officer wants to see bad workers, makes contract negotiations that much harder.
> ...



I did not write down her name, but I was thinking about writing a letter. I wish I had a scanned image of the actual page to send with it rather than "someone says".

By the way, I am headed to your alma mater for my cousins wedding on Saturday. This Hoo has had to hear alot of smack from my hokie cousin, but I guess I should go to his wedding, anyway.


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## VentureForth (Dec 13, 2011)

A bit off topic here...

A TV show that I have been enjoying lately on the SyFy channel is "Warehouse 13". The two main characters are Secret Service agents with opposing personalities. Every time the male protagonist blunders or doesn't understand something that everyone else should, they all yell at him to "Read the Warehouse Manual". They even made an acronymn for it: RTFM for Read the Flippin' Manual!


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 13, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> They even made an acronymn for it: RTFM for Read the Flippin' Manual!


The first time I heard "RTFM" was probably over ten years ago. The "F" was always an expletive, which I suppose is probably why the acronym was created in the first place.


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## RRrich (Dec 13, 2011)

I suspect that most of the _old folks_ here will tell you that RTFM has been around for a long time :giggle:


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## VentureForth (Dec 13, 2011)

I didn't grow up in this country. I am an immigrant. I didn't want to be thrown off the board for putting up expletives.

So, if RTFM has been around for a while, can we use that with the crusty conductors and LSAs?


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 13, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> I didn't grow up in this country. I am an immigrant. I didn't want to be thrown off the board for putting up expletives. So, if RTFM has been around for a while, can we use that with the crusty conductors and LSAs?


I wouldn't if I were you. It's one thing to stand your ground and refuse to suck-up to anyone at Amtrak. It's quite another thing to swear at them through the guise of an acronym. Chances are they'll know what it stands for and will not take kindly to its use. By all means you can and should expect them to follow the rules, but needlessly escalating the situation just so you can get a jab in seems more than a little counterproductive to me.


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## Railroad Bill (Dec 13, 2011)

This has been one of the most interesting threads recently found on AU. Certainly learned much new information about policies re: sleepers and the number of occupants. But it also points out the most glaring problems with Amtrak travel. 

1) Why should one have to become confrontational with Amtrak employees who do not do their job and do not know their company's policies. I would prefer not getting an ulcer each time someone on the train doesn't follow the rules.

2) Why do agents give conflicting information each time one calls for reservations. (Thus needing to call back numerous times to get the "correct" answer? Lack of training. ( I will say my last four calls to AGR have been very pleasant and the agents very professional.

3) Why are Amtrak employees with bad attitudes allowed to continue in employment? (Unions, lack of management skills. etc.

There are some things Amtrak cannot control (Weather, suicides, careless drivers who run around crossing gates, some mechanical breakdowns attributed to aged equipment, lack of funding, and "crap happens" events. But personnel who do not do their jobs and therefore make it a less than a pleasurable experience for the passengers who pay the fares, can be fixed if management is willing to do so.

If Amtrak is to succeed in the long run, it must develop a management strategy that involves pride in the organization. Many Amtrak employees have that attitude as has been pointed out in many of our praises for great SCAs, Diner attendants, and even some really nice conductors. But as is usually the case, one bad apple can spoil the whole basket.

BACK ON THREAD-- Can hardly wait to book four of us in a bedroom from CLE to WAS. :lol: :lol:


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## me_little_me (Dec 13, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> If is it for more than 2 people in the sleeper (or 2 adults and 2 children in a Family Room), you *MUST* call to book - you can not book online! If it is for a day trip, explain the rule, and you may get away with it.


It is not a matter of "getting away with it" if it is company policy. The best thing is what was said by Davy Crockett - ask for a supervisor.


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## rrdude (Dec 13, 2011)

Railroad Bill said:


> This has been one of the most interesting threads recently found on AU. Certainly learned much new information about policies re: sleepers and the number of occupants. But it also points out the most glaring problems with Amtrak travel.
> 
> 1) Why should one have to become confrontational with Amtrak employees who do not do their job and do not know their company's policies. I would prefer not getting an ulcer each time someone on the train doesn't follow the rules.
> 
> ...


I'd say 40 years qualifies as the "long run". But I think I know what you mean. For me, while employed at Amtrak, it was the unions that screwed things up, and kept employees who should have been night-auditors at hotels in Siberia, on the payroll. BUT, that IS the union's job, in one respect.

(As I was forced to join, and had numerous long, and educational conversations with our old union rep, "Bert" ???. There were certainly reasons for the unions to be created, but in my opinion, the pendulum has swung WAY TO FAR to the other side, needs to swing back to center.)

The best traveler is a WELL INFORMED traveler. Goes for rules for airlines too. In today's crowded skies, if you don't know what you actually entitled too, then when your plans go awry, you can get hosed "just because that's what the ramp agent or clerk tells you.............."


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Dec 13, 2011)

I see a lot of good points being made here, but focused upon generalities.

IMHO, "non-berth service" is just a dumb idea. Trying to pack as many frat-brothers as possible into a tiny little sleeper accommodation so you all can get complimentary meals, isn't what Sleeper Class is all about.

I can also understand an agent assuming that "non-berth service" can't possibly be true, when some know-it-all voice on the other end of the phone line claims it to be, because it is so obviously a dumb idea.

As to memorizing the manual, no one does that. No one memorizes the stereo manual, no one memorizes the driver's manual, and no one memorizes the Amtrak manual. That's just the way humans are. We only become familiar with those items which we encounter regularly, and its that repartition which ingrains those points into our brains.

An agent should know how to book two parents with their two little kids into a Family Room. But I would not fault an agent who doesn't understand how to book five frat-brothers into the same Family Room.


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## Tumbleweed (Dec 13, 2011)

This is an excerpt from the Service Manual....it seems to make for a strong argument that employees are expected to read, understand, and comply with the contents....and I don't think that is too much to ask of an employee.....

"My signature indicates that I have received a copy of

Service Standards Manual for Train Service and

On-Board Service Employees, Version 6 and a copy

of the Policy Resource Booklet for Amtrak Employees,

Version 3. Effective 12:01 am, April 30, 2011.

I understand that I am responsible for reading and

updating my manual and that I must follow the procedures

outlined. I also understand that this receipt will be placed

in my personnel file"


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## dart330 (Dec 13, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> IMHO, "non-berth service" is just a dumb idea. Trying to pack as many frat-brothers as possible into a tiny little sleeper accommodation so you all can get complimentary meals, isn't what Sleeper Class is all about.


I don't know where the idea of cramming frat brothers into a room came from. This trip is for my wife and I along with another couple. We recently did a 4 day trip in a bedroom suite and spent the majority of the daytime all sitting in one room, and slept in our separate rooms at night.

As stated earlier in this thread:



dart330 said:


> I would not book it for an overnighter, but there are still several advantages to sitting in a bedroom over coach.
> 
> -private stock (booze) & ice
> 
> ...


This is exactly what sleeper class is all about.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 13, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I can also understand an agent assuming that "non-berth service" can't possibly be true, when some know-it-all voice on the other end of the phone line claims it to be, because it is so obviously a dumb idea.


Seems to me that the _true_ know-it-all is the one that refuses to look it up, not the one who is consulting the manual. You have yet to explain *why* it's so "obviously" dumb beyond some vague concern that fraternity members might make use of it.



Cho Cho Charlie said:


> As to memorizing the manual, no one does that. No one memorizes the stereo manual, no one memorizes the driver's manual, and no one memorizes the Amtrak manual.


I don't think memorizing is the issue. Refusal to _consult the manual_ seems to be the issue.


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## Blue Marble Travel (Dec 14, 2011)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > No. From the part quoted above:
> ...



As a former Train Attendant, I can answer: people sometimes use the overnight trains for short, middle-of-the-night rides, or for rides that start or end in middle-of-the-night hours. Such passengers would often tell you not to put down the bed, especially if their arrival was before 3a, or if they were boarding after 4 or so.

Boarding a train in coach in the middle of the night is not necessarily a pleasant experience (waking the sleeping passenger sprawled out across your assigned seat, as well as his own), especially for women traveling alone. Others were business travellers who would work on their computers. They valued the plug, and the ability to turn the lights on in the room without bothering other passengers, the beverage service... (no, I don't know what they did for a living that they had to work at 3a). I had a regular on several trips who traveled Pittsburgh - Cleveland, and Pittsburgh - Toledo was routine, especially when the connecting train to southern Michigan briefly ran (these are night rides, but Pittsburgh - Cleveland, especially, is very short). Other sleeper trips that I remember people making: NY (or other NE corridor point) - Greensboro; Charlotte to Greensboro, Charlottesville, or Altanta: Seattle - Spokane.... Charlotte, a big city with a middle-of-the-night stop, was a big generator of this type of business. Cleveland was another. And Memphis was a third.

I don't remember any but single travelers doing this, but there is no reason to refuse the over-occupancy of a room if someone wants to occupy it in daylight configuration. Chicago - Cleveland riders are routine in the sleepers, and it is hit or miss as to whether they will want the beds down.

BTW, we did occasionally see over-occupied "non-berth" rooms, so _someone_ at Amtrak knew how to sell the tickets....


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## VentureForth (Dec 14, 2011)

dart330 said:


> dart330 said:
> 
> 
> > I would not book it for an overnighter, but there are still several advantages to sitting in a bedroom over coach.
> ...


And a shower! That is a great benefit for long distance day travellers.


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## rrdude (Dec 15, 2011)

Help me out here, (I'm too lazy and stoopid to research) 'cause I'm actually booked on the Coast Starlight LAX to EMY next month, there is no _price difference_ between "Berth" and "Non-Berth" is there?


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## AG1 (Dec 15, 2011)

rrdude said:


> Help me out here, (I'm too lazy and stoopid to research) 'cause I'm actually booked on the Coast Starlight LAX to EMY next month, there is no _price difference_ between "Berth" and "Non-Berth" is there?


Correct


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## sunchaser (Dec 15, 2011)

We took a ride in a bedroom sleeper in 2009 on the Coast Starlight, and one of our relatives under 15 was going to join up with us along the way. I called Amtrak to find out what the policy for underage in coach was, and she cheerfully explained it and then offered to add him to our bedroom rezzie, for the cost of the coach ticket. She said he may have to pay for meals. He ended up flying instead, but I was pleased that they offered to add him. It would have been considered Berth only, as it was a daytime trip.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 15, 2011)

sunchaser said:


> It would have been considered Berth only, as it was a daytime trip.


According to Amtrak's own manual the time of day is not the deciding factor. Rather, it's how the room is used that is the deciding factor. Which sort of leaves me wondering what would prevent you from just closing the door and the shades and setting up the room however you like. A roomette can have three folks if two are sitting in the chairs and one is lying down in the upper bed.


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## George Harris (Dec 15, 2011)

VentureForth said:


> . . . they all yell at him to "Read the Warehouse Manual". They even made an acronymn for it: RTFM for Read the Flippin' Manual!


When I first saw RTFM in the thread my eyes first erad it as the slightly reshuffled military approximation: REMF. The fist two words are Rear Echelon. The last two involve an improper parental relationship, which I leave to the imagination. It generaly involve idiotic pronouncements and rules made by someone with power and no sense sitting in an office a long way from the action adn concerning activities about which he knew nothing or next to it.


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## Ryan (Dec 15, 2011)

The problem is too many REMFs spend too much time RTFMing.


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## sunchaser (Dec 16, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > It would have been considered Berth only, as it was a daytime trip.
> ...


I've read of people doing just that-but turning the bunk into a sort of play area for their kids.

I think it would be better in a Viewliner because there is a window up there and it's a little taller up there.

My experiences have been in Superliners only. I do think you could seat 4 in a bedroom with no issues at all. If two are little, like toddlers, babies or under 7 or 8, you could probably sleep all 4 in a bedroom.


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## Blue Marble Travel (Dec 18, 2011)

Because you're standing in the aisle, the manual back in your cabin (before you say, "why don't you carry it with you at all times?" think for a second about what that would mean while you make up 40 beds), 3 other people waiting for your attention... and going back to do homework doesn't strike you as the proper course of action in the moment.

That is not to say that making up answers is good: I'm just giving the obvious answer to what I see as a naive question.

BTW, while I got hold of the manual soon after I became a Train Attendant, I was never told to read it, nor do I recall being told I was responsible for knowing its contents. I _did_ read it, out of interest, but I don't recall ever being called upon (in 3 years on the railroad) to produce any reply that it might have contained, and that I did not already know. This day sleeper business is pretty arcane....



Train2104 said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2011)

"I'm not sure, but let me look into it and I'll find out" is a perfectly acceptable answer. Besides, you didn't have to know the arcane bits about non-berth usage, that's really more important for the booking agents. Once they're on your manifest, that's all you really need to be concerned with.

And you were told that you needed to read it:

""My signature indicates that I have received a copy of

Service Standards Manual for Train Service and

On-Board Service Employees, Version 6 and a copy

of the Policy Resource Booklet for Amtrak Employees,

Version 3. Effective 12:01 am, April 30, 2011.

*I understand that I am responsible for reading and*

*updating my manual and that I must follow the procedures*

*outlined.* I also understand that this receipt will be placed

in my personnel file"


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## OBS (Dec 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> "I'm not sure, but let me look into it and I'll find out" is a perfectly acceptable answer. Besides, you didn't have to know the arcane bits about non-berth usage, that's really more important for the booking agents. Once they're on your manifest, that's all you really need to be concerned with.
> 
> And you were told that you needed to read it:
> 
> ...


Ryan, the receipt you are quoting has only been in use for the last few years. Prior to that you were basically handed the manual and told "you must carry this with you at all times"...LOL


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2011)

OK, so?

It's mind boggling to think that you were handed a document that outlined your employers policies and think that you didn't have to be familiar with its contents.


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## Shanghai (Dec 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> It's mind boggling to think that you were handed a document that outlined your employers policies and think that you didn't have to be familiar with its contents.



This sounds like our US Congress!! Remember Nancy Pelosi's comment:

"We need to pass this bill (Obamacare) so we can find out what is in it"


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2011)

That's not what she said. She said that people would figure out what was in it when it passed, since the media was nowhere near correct in describing the bills contents.


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## Shanghai (Dec 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> That's not what she said. She said that people would figure out what was in it when it passed, since the media was nowhere near correct in describing the bills contents.


A morning radio program in New York has a recording of Pelosi's speech where she says

what I quoted above. They play it three or four times a week.


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2011)

That's nice. Context is key to understanding what she was saying. You can take anything out of context and make it sound like something completely different.


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## amamba (Dec 18, 2011)

Shanghai said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > That's not what she said. She said that people would figure out what was in it when it passed, since the media was nowhere near correct in describing the bills contents.
> ...


She didn't say "we". She said "you". As in, so you can see what is in it. That implies that she has already read the bill.


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## Shanghai (Dec 18, 2011)

*“We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it”*


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 18, 2011)

Shanghai said:


> *“We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it”*


Dick! Dick! :help: Try listening to a responsible station, not Fox Noise!  (aka Fixed News!)NPR has had some pretty good programs on this, and as the courts hold the various hearings on this bill (wasting millions of tax payer dollars on lawyers!!!) interesting things are coming out, including todays revelations that the various States have the flexibility to tailor their coverage according to their needs, its not one big "Socialized Obama Scheme" to ruin life as we know it!This is another of the Republican/T-party talking points, just like the crapola about Amtrak, ( aka lies) that have been spread ,via the wing nut grapevine, about the Health Care Reform Bill that over 60% of Americans now support!!!!


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2011)

amamba said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


Exactly. The only way "you" (me and you and Joe Citizen) were going to find out how the bill impacted us was if "We" (Congress) passed it and we were allowed to see for ourselves what it brought.

Pretty accurate, and unsurprising that the same media organizations that spun the ACA into something that it wasnt tried to spin Pelosi's words into something they weren't.

Now, how about we leave the partisan hackery aside and get back to trains?


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## OBS (Dec 18, 2011)

Ryan said:


> OK, so?
> 
> It's mind boggling to think that you were handed a document that outlined your employers policies and think that you didn't have to be familiar with its contents.


It may be mind boggling to you, but that is the way Amtrak operated for MANY years. When I hired on, I received 4 days of classroom training and made 3 training trips. Once as a sleeper attendant, once as dining car service attendant, and once as an LSA, then sent out and told to do the best I could. Now, new hires receive 3-4 weeks of classroom training, and spend a month going on training trips.


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## Ryan (Dec 18, 2011)

That's not the part that is mind boggling. The mind boggling part is the idea that because you weren't told to "read and understand" that one wouldn't think that it wasn't important to do so.

I have no doubt that Amtrak was run that way, but if there was a slip of paper to sign or not, ignorance is no excuse for just making up policy.


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## Blue Marble Travel (Dec 19, 2011)

Ryan said:


> That's not the part that is mind boggling. The mind boggling part is the idea that because you weren't told to "read and understand" that one wouldn't think that it wasn't important to do so.
> 
> I have no doubt that Amtrak was run that way, but if there was a slip of paper to sign or not, ignorance is no excuse for just making up policy.


Ryan, you are clearly better than the rest of us, and I admire you for that. You must have a hard time finding people that live up to your standards, but we each have a cross to bear.

Conversely, no one has spoken of "making up policy." That is a horse of your invention, a straw man whose demolition seeks to make you stand tall.

As a previous poster has noted, my training class was NOT given any sort of statement to sign that said I had "read and understood" anything. Indeed, I wasn't even given the book. I came across it in the Chicago crew base (I was based in NY), after I had been on the road for more than 6 months, and "borrowed" it. I have no idea who my copy belonged to, and I never saw another one. I still have it. I left Amtrak many years ago, and have worked for several railroads since, including the Venice Simplon Orient Express, SNCF, and the Belgian National. I am good at what I do, and proud of my work ethic, even though it falls short of yours. And thus I found the rule book interesting. But...

...I received 4 days training when I hired on in 1979. It was supposed to be 5, but the instructor — who was excellent, let it be said — was absent one day, for some critical work-related reason that I no longer remember.

My ONE training trip was a round-trip from NYP to Harrisburg on a Slumbercoach of the "Broadway Limited." The outbound TA was an old-timer, a year from retirement, who put me in an empty cabin and told me not to leave it, lest I "get in the way." The return TA was a new hire, completing his first trip. Imagine his surprise at being told he was to "show me the ropes!"

The manual is 150 pages or so long, and it is not exciting reading. Most of it's recommendations fall squarely in the "duh" category. I confess, that makes the few surprising ones easier to remember. But plowing through 150 pages of legaleze to get to them is not easy.

Amtrak looks for many skills in its Train Attendants, but even in my day, most of those were broadly linked to the hospitality industry. Needless to say, people with talent in hospitality are often quite different in mental structure from those who glide through arcane English with bullet points numbered by decimals.

Yes, I have read the manual, and I was (and still am) "familiar" with it. Though I would venture to say that few of my fellow Attendants (we still called ourselves "porters," in the vernacular) were. But familiarity and memorization are not the same.

All of this is to say that perfection is not human, except in you, where any failure "boggles." Or is being easily boggled an imperfection? That is above my pay grade.

No one, on this post or in life, condones making up policy. But sometimes you think you know the answer, so you give it. And then, that night, when the last passenger is in bed, and you have a couple of hours before your 4a wake-up to get someone off in Cleveland, instead of lying down, you look up the issue in the manual. And you discover you got it wrong. As Governor Perry would say, "Oops."


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## rrdude (Dec 19, 2011)

Ryan said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > Shanghai said:
> ...


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## Ryan (Dec 19, 2011)

Blue Marble Travel said:


> Ryan, you are clearly better than the rest of us, and I admire you for that. You must have a hard time finding people that live up to your standards, but we each have a cross to bear.


Dude, lose the attitude - the full court defense just makes you look guilty. I never said that I was better than anyone here.



> Conversely, no one has spoken of "making up policy." That is a horse of your invention, a straw man whose demolition seeks to make you stand tall.


Actually, that was the topic of the post that you replied to. Let me refresh your memory:



Train2104 said:


> Since the employee always has the manual with them when on the job, he/she can just refer to it for the less-common situations rather than give false information from their memory or just an "I don't know". But why don't they do that?


If you were indeed not given one, then that would have been a much better answer than "Because I was too busy to provide proper customer service", which is what your reply amounted to.



> The manual is 150 pages or so long, and it is not exciting reading. Most of it's recommendations fall squarely in the "duh" category. I confess, that makes the few surprising ones easier to remember. But plowing through 150 pages of legaleze to get to them is not easy.


If it were easy, they wouldn't have to pay you. That's why they call it "work".


> Yes, I have read the manual, and I was (and still am) "familiar" with it. Though I would venture to say that few of my fellow Attendants (we still called ourselves "porters," in the vernacular) were. But familiarity and memorization are not the same.


That's fine, since nobody is calling for memorizing the entire document.


> No one, on this post or in life, condones making up policy. But sometimes you think you know the answer, so you give it. And then, that night, when the last passenger is in bed, and you have a couple of hours before your 4a wake-up to get someone off in Cleveland, instead of lying down, you look up the issue in the manual. And you discover you got it wrong. As Governor Perry would say, "Oops."


Thanks for clearing that up. Perhaps if that had been your initial reply, it could have ended there.


----------

