# Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?



## Sidney

I read in another forum that a high level official on Amtrak said full service dining will not return. If that is the case,and I have a feeling it is,there should be other offerings like sandwiches and pizza. Isn't there a refrigerator? Also the price for sleepers should be adjusted for the huge downgrade in food service.


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## MikeM

I would like to hope that they would choose to bring back real dining service in LD trains; I would even go so far as to hope at some point they would try to expand services to provide service to coach passengers and fully utilize the dining cars rather than treat them as a solely sleeper feature with limited coach seatings. I do know that if TV Dinners are going to be the thing going forward, I won't be traveling on anything longer than a 24 hour journey on Amtrak, and potentially not even that. The diners are a major feature of the train experience, and not having that I believe is the bridge too far to justify the extra travel time and expense. I'm not so sure with this administration that this isn't more of a feature than a bug, chasing off the most profitable segment of travelers so they can justify elimination of LD trains and trying to shift to being a service provider to state services.


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## fdaley

If full-service dining doesn't return, I won't be riding any of those trains again. If it does return, and if we actually get the coronavirus under control, I would like to go west again. But I'd still have to figure out how to get from the Northeast to Chicago. I have already sworn off the Lake Shore, Capitol and the other eastern overnights because of the current horrible "contemporary/flexible" program. With the hassle of having to find some other way to get to Chicago, the family vacation to the West Coast would probably only happen every few years at best, rather than every year as it did for most of the past decade and a half. So yes, if the goal is to chase off the most profitable and loyal customers, it's working.


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## crescent-zephyr

If there had been a real plan to bring full service dining back, imho, they would have gone to the express menu and kept the chef position. That would have been the easiest and most sensible thing to do if the plan wasn’t to switch to contemporary dining.


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## lordsigma

I wouldn't be surprised if we see the dining service come back to some, but possibly not all, of the western routes. We'll just have to wait and see.


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## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we see the dining service come back to some, but possibly not all, of the western routes. We'll just have to wait and see.



I do hope you are right, in the sense that some would be better than none.


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## lordsigma

fdaley said:


> I do hope you are right, in the sense that some would be better than none.


I won’t be waging any money on any particular outcome of course. I’d rather it return for my cross country trip next June but if it doesn’t I’ll still go. I still love the train and the adventure (and detest flying) regardless of food and this will be my first “crossing.”


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## NativeSon5859

I personally don’t think they’re coming back. Would like to be proven wrong. That being said, I’ve done two, eight-night trips this summer on Amtrak. I decided I wasn’t going to let the meals be the deciding factor. I enjoy the experience of traveling in a sleeper, looking up at the stars while falling asleep, hanging out in the sightseer lounge with my music just watching the world pass. I would prefer the old way of doing things but I also know that things change regardless if we want them to or not. By all means, stay away if the meals are such a deciding factor. That’ll just mean more sleeper space for my multiple trips per year.


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## fdaley

Well, it's true: For those who don't mind putting up with the prepackaged meals, there will be plenty of rooms available even at the last minute. Even before the pandemic, I was noticing that the Lake Shore and Crescent hardly had any dates in the December holiday period when the sleepers were sold out, whereas in past years many departures in the Christmas-New Year's week were either full or only had a couple high-bucket rooms left. And on days outside holiday periods, the lowest pricing now is almost always available. But I would be concerned that, as MikeM suggests above, this becomes a way to cast the long-haul trains as poorly used and not worth continuing -- when in fact there are plenty of us who would like to travel if a better service level were maintained.


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## dirtpro06

My sca told me regular dining would be back after August a couple weeks ago.


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## Exvalley

dirtpro06 said:


> My sca told me regular dining would be back after August a couple weeks ago.


That seems to be what employees are saying. I hope that they are correct, but until Amtrak makes an official announcement you never know.


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## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> That seems to be what employees are saying. I hope that they are correct, but until Amtrak makes an official announcement you never know.


Dont bet your house on this! All indications are that until Congress forces Amtrak to re-instate their cuts, the plan to continue on the current path will be Full Speed ahead!


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## Skyline

lordsigma said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we see the dining service come back to some, but possibly not all, of the western routes. We'll just have to wait and see.



Realistically, the "experiential" market would support a more expensive once- or twice-weekly premium service coast-to-coast, or CHI to LAX and then north to EMY or SEA. Top notch dining and lounge car service would need to be a part of that. It could be all-sleeper, or a mix of coach and sleeper. It might not have many intermediate stops.

It's all about good marketing, and delivering the goods. Can current Amtrak management be depended upon to do these?

I don't want to see other routes which exist to serve deserving populations in cities and towns along their routes downgraded for this to happen; an experiential service should indeed pay its own way (eventually) and could be a pilot for an additional route if successful.


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## crescent-zephyr

Skyline said:


> Realistically, the "experiential" market would support a more expensive once- or twice-weekly premium service coast-to-coast, or CHI to LAX and then north to EMY or SEA. Top notch dining and lounge car service would need to be a part of that. It could be all-sleeper, or a mix of coach and sleeper. It might not have many intermediate stops.
> 
> It's all about good marketing, and delivering the goods. Can current Amtrak management be depended upon to do these?
> 
> I don't want to see other routes which exist to serve deserving populations in cities and towns along their routes downgraded for this to happen; an experiential service should indeed pay its own way (eventually) and could be a pilot for an additional route if successful.



I think the “experimental market” was just talk. If anything I think we’d see something on the coast starlight. They can bring back the Parlour Car service anytime they want with SSL’s.


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## Palmetto

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the “experimental market” was just talk. If anything I think we’d see something on the coast starlight. They can bring back the Parlour Car service anytime they want with SSL’s.




Are those cars even still on the property? I thought they were sold.


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## crescent-zephyr

Palmetto said:


> Are those cars even still on the property? I thought they were sold.



They were. That’s why I said “with ssl’s” (sightseer lounge).


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## Sidney

I have completed two cross country circle trips in the last couple of months and I have one planned for September. I am hoping full service dining will be back,but I ll go anyway. I just wish some of the cafe car food like the pizza and burgers were included as part of the flexible offerings.

I took advantage of a points sale a couple of weeks ago and saved using 22,000 points for my trip last week and my upcoming trip. I figure 16,200 points to go from Chicago to LA on the Texas Eagle is pretty good.
I


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## Willbridge

Sidney said:


> I have completed two cross country circle trips in the last couple of months and I have one planned for September. I am hoping full service dining will be back,but I ll go anyway. I just wish some of the cafe car food like the pizza and burgers were included as part of the flexible offerings.



As people in other threads have observed, if Amtrak is really serious about making this work, they need to include lounge car food as an option for First Class passengers and either offer better food in the lounges for the Coach passengers or come up with a way of letting Coach passengers eat dining car food. Variety!

There are a lot of proven ways of dealing with this. Here are some samples. The first two segregated Coach customers from First Class, BUT offered hometown cooking with balanced meals for the Coach passengers. The _Pioneer Limited _overnight CHI<>MSP had a coffee shop that could be run with one person or two. The NP cafeteria car could provide freshly made deli meals with a two-person crew.

I'm not certain, but I think that travel agents could sell the Dining Club coupons and get paid commission for doing so. Today that could be sold on-line as easily as travel insurance is.


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## Seaboard92

Skyline said:


> Realistically, the "experiential" market would support a more expensive once- or twice-weekly premium service coast-to-coast, or CHI to LAX and then north to EMY or SEA. Top notch dining and lounge car service would need to be a part of that. It could be all-sleeper, or a mix of coach and sleeper. It might not have many intermediate stops.
> 
> It's all about good marketing, and delivering the goods. Can current Amtrak management be depended upon to do these?
> 
> I don't want to see other routes which exist to serve deserving populations in cities and towns along their routes downgraded for this to happen; an experiential service should indeed pay its own way (eventually) and could be a pilot for an additional route if successful.




No it wouldn't work let me give you the best case study for why it won't work. 

The American European Express/ Greenbriar Limited/ American Orient Express/ Grand Luxe Express/ Greenbriar Presidential Train

I am grouping the five different trains together because they shared the same exact equipment set, and for the most part were all part of the same basic idea. Providing a luxury rail based cruise around America. 

First off the American European Express (AEE) operated their cars similar to how Iowa Pacific's Pullman Rail Journey's operated theirs. They initially operated six days a week on the rear of the Capitol Limited in two five car trainsets each with three sleepers, a diner, and a lounge. However the ridership didn't metabolize for it. Granted the Capitol Limited would not have been the route I would have chosen for a service like this, rather I would have chosen the California Zephyr west of Denver, or the Coast Starlight. This operation ran from November 1989 to December 1990. 

Greenbriar Limited (GL) . The theory on this train was that it would cater to tourists, and tour groups going to the Greenbriar Hotel in West Virginia and the train would run from Washington, DC to Chicago, IL. Passengers could get off and stay at the hotel for awhile before getting on one of the next departures. This train ran smooth for a few months before a grade crossing incident happened that put most of the consist on the ground. However the train stayed consistently profitable, and they were even going to try a New York-Florida train in the winter. However a trespasser strike on the NEC on the test run spooked the investors and they withdrew their support. All in all it lasted an entire year. 

American Orient Express (AOE): Now this was the real deal, at times it was a massive 21-24 car consist with 13 sleepers, 2-3 crew cars, an observation, a super dome, conventional lounge cars, and a dining cars. Now this train was a true work of art everything inside was beautifully appointed and well taken care of. They ran a variety of routes across the USA with Amtrak providing the locomotives and operating crews. They ran from Washington, DC to Los Angeles on the Grand Transcontinental (WAS-RVR-CHS-SAV-NOL-KCY-ABQ-Grand Canyon-LAX), but the most popular trips were the ones that ran out of Salt Lake City, UT the National Parks of the West, or the Great Northwest. This train had a fairly long run from 1994 to 2006. I actually got to tour the train on its last voyage east back in 2005. 

Grand Luxe Express (GLX): This was owned by the owner of Colorado Railcar (another failed business at this point) and concentrated mostly on the two really strong routes in the American Orient Express playbook the National Parks of the West and the Great Northwest. They also went back to their routes on the AEE by offering a few cars on the rear of regularly scheduled Amtrak moves as well. But shortly after they bought the train in 2006 the 2008 recession hit and the company went bankrupt and the cars were sold. 

Greenbriar Presidential Express (GPE): This is a still born train of the same exact rolling stock that was supposed to run from Washington, DC to the Greenbriar. However this one never turned a wheel, and the host railroads are allegedly to blame for that. The cars have again been sold and are all across the country now. 

I've worked two of the cars from this train.


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## crescent-zephyr

AOE did ok financially for a while. All of these operations (Iowa Pacific included) are complex. It's not as simple as as "that operation lose money"

Seaboard (and others...) do you remember when Colorado Rail Car had the plan for "Golden Eagle Journeys" or something like that... they had a website up at one point and they were advertising the custom bi-level cars they were going to use. The rear observation car was going to be built like a bi-level gallery car so it was a multi level lounge open to the floor with a baby grand piano. Would have been amazing if if had happened.


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## fdaley

Willbridge said:


> As people in other threads have observed, if Amtrak is really serious about making this work, they need to include lounge car food as an option for First Class passengers and either offer better food in the lounges for the Coach passengers or come up with a way of letting Coach passengers eat dining car food. Variety!
> 
> There are a lot of proven ways of dealing with this. Here are some samples.



Well, the El Capitan budget meal plan looks way better than anything Amtrak offers now. But if we're not going to have bacon and eggs or griddle cakes for breakfast, certainly adding the cafe menu to the list of possibilities for sleeping car passengers would be less bad than the extremely limited and often unappetizing choices in the "flexible" dining program -- choices that remain the same for every lunch and dinner on the trip. Still, I don't think the addition of the cafe menu would be enough to convince me to spend $350 a night for a roomette or almost $700 for a bedroom on the Lake Shore -- let alone to commit to a two-night trip on one of the western trains.


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## 20th Century Rider

For my take on such downgraded policies... either eliminate the dining option and bring down the sleeping car cost because the food is excluded... or include a reasonably high level of food service that adds so much to rail travel and that justifies the price. If a on reduced fare due to exclusion of food, I can certainly be creative and bring some truly exceptional gourmet food for the journey. But I absolutely refuse to accept tiny little tasteless, boring, and unhealthy food offerings as a permanent replacement for what once was such a delightful part of the trip. I am speaking strictly for myself; but don't think I'm alone. My interest will be lost in a travel product of such poor value and quality. Will use up my Amtrak points; and then... done.


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## fdaley

20th Century Rider said:


> I absolutely refuse to accept tiny little tasteless, boring, and unhealthy food offerings as a permanent replacement for what once was such a delightful part of the trip. I am speaking strictly for myself; but don't think I'm alone. My interest will be lost in a travel product of such poor value and quality. Will use up my Amtrak points; and then... done.



This is exactly how I feel about it. There has hardly been a time in the past 35 years that I haven't had a future long-distance train trip at some level of planning, but right now I have nothing pending or even imagined. Partly it's the coronavirus, but it's also the food. I expect at some point I'll spend down my cache of AGR points on short-haul corridor runs, which to me are the only things Amtrak still does well.


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## lordsigma

I will say that Amtrak is not the only place that has reverted to pre packaged meals during the pandemic. My entire dining service where I work at a university is 100% pre packaged no to order or cafeteria style meals allowed for the fall semester. As I have said before I don’t think it is impossible for better meals to eventually return - the Acela first class is also getting dog food in a box currently (Possibly worse than the flex dining From the descriptions I’ve seen before people praise the short hauls too much) and Acela is the pride of the fleet. Sadly what they have done does have some public health backing - most of the guidance is advising institutional kitchens and food service to do prepackaged meals unsealed only by the diner. Unfortunately if you want a good meal right now you either have to cook it yourself or goto a restaurant. We shall see what happens when the pandemic is past us.


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## fdaley

lordsigma said:


> I will say that Amtrak is not the only place that has reverted to pre packaged meals during the pandemic. My entire dining service where I work at a university is 100% pre packaged no to order or cafeteria style meals allowed for the fall semester. As I have said before I don’t think it is impossible for better meals to eventually return - the Acela first class is also getting dog food in a box currently (Possibly worse than the flex dining From the descriptions I’ve seen before people praise the short hauls too much) and Acela is the pride of the fleet. Sadly what they have done does have some public health backing - most of the guidance is advising institutional kitchens and food service to do prepackaged meals unsealed only by the diner. ... We shall see what happens when the pandemic is past us.



If it's only temporary because of the pandemic, I'm OK with it, so maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves here. After all, Amtrak did say at the outset of this that it would restore full-service dining on the western trains when the health emergency has passed. But because of how Amtrak has handled meal service on the eastern trains, some of us don't have a lot of confidence that management will make good on its restoration promise -- especially with the financial pressures of prolonged low ridership as the pandemic lingers or worsens in much of the country. As you say, we shall see. I am not at all keen on traveling until we see virus cases go way down nationwide. But if we beat the virus and still have no dining service, I'll keep staying home.


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## Sauve850

There's a lot of pessimism on food service but I'm optimistic it has no where to go but up. Lots of things going on in our country that need addressing but hopefully when some of the dust settles improvements can be made.


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## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> I will say that Amtrak is not the only place that has reverted to pre packaged meals during the pandemic. My entire dining service where I work at a university is 100% pre packaged no to order or cafeteria style meals allowed for the fall semester. As I have said before I don’t think it is impossible for better meals to eventually return - the Acela first class is also getting dog food in a box currently (Possibly worse than the flex dining From the descriptions I’ve seen before people praise the short hauls too much) and Acela is the pride of the fleet. Sadly what they have done does have some public health backing - most of the guidance is advising institutional kitchens and food service to do prepackaged meals unsealed only by the diner. Unfortunately if you want a good meal right now you either have to cook it yourself or goto a restaurant. We shall see what happens when the pandemic is past us.



Yes, we get it and understand fully that food services on all modes are cut back due to the pandemic. 

But the issue here is whether or not Amtrak will use this as an excuse to make such poor and low level of service permanent and as part of the travel product... and justify it due to, 'popular demand;' as has been justifications of cutbacks in the past. The flex meal program is subpar to: prison food, MRI's, k-rations, and boot camp chow. It leaves passengers unsatisfied, still hungry, and feeling short changed. It's just cheep and bad... and it is unconscionable that such disgrace should become a permanent fixture of the 'first class rail' product. Doesn't make sense! Not logical! No way!


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## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes, we get it and understand fully that food services on all modes are cut back due to the pandemic.
> 
> But the issue here is whether or not Amtrak will use this as an excuse to make such poor and low level of service permanent and as part of the travel product... and justify it due to, 'popular demand;' as has been justifications of cutbacks in the past. The flex meal program is subpar to: prison food, MRI's, k-rations, and boot camp chow. It leaves passengers unsatisfied, still hungry, and feeling short changed. It's just cheep and bad... and it is unconscionable that such disgrace should become a permanent fixture of the 'first class rail' product. Doesn't make sense! Not logical! No way!


I guess if the dog food departs the Acela but not the western diners when all is said and done we will know. I’m not 100% convinced yet it will never return to any of the routes, but i also won’t bet any money on that either - this is Amtrak after all.. I mean who knows if they think they can still sell tickets maybe they even keep the boxed meals on the Acela.


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## west point

The question will be answered if Congress and a president push thru the dining requirement. If the law is passed requiring same a period of 90 days should be enough to implement it. Of course the spread of Covid-19 will be a problem that will determine how it will be implemented. Cooked meals in a diner will have to be distributed somehow.


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## Joel Clemmer

Sidney said:


> I read in another forum that a high level official on Amtrak said full service dining will not return. If that is the case,and I have a feeling it is,there should be other offerings like sandwiches and pizza. Isn't there a refrigerator? Also the price for sleepers should be adjusted for the huge downgrade in food service.



The opinions on Amtrak flex food service seem to break into two: (1.) "I do not ride the train for the food so get over it" or (2.) "I feel strongly about the [french-toast/surf-turf/whatever] and demand their return."

I fall in between. For me, the experience of sharing a table with fellow travelers as we jointly enjoy food service is a big feature of Amtrak travel. The food can be good-enough and the other experiences, such as being lolled to sleep in my bunk, certainly remain important. I interpret "flex dining" as fast food on the rails, both as to the food itself and the anonymous, routine way it is presented. It is an empty, if not off-putting, experience in all senses compared to the traditional dining car.


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## tricia

Joel Clemmer said:


> The opinions on Amtrak flex food service seem to break into two: (1.) "I do not ride the train for the food so get over it" or (2.) "I feel strongly about the [french-toast/surf-turf/whatever] and demand their return."
> 
> I fall in between. For me, the experience of sharing a table with fellow travelers as we jointly enjoy food service is a big feature of Amtrak travel. The food can be good-enough and the other experiences, such as being lolled to sleep in my bunk, certainly remain important. I interpret "flex dining" as fast food on the rails, both as to the food itself and the anonymous, routine way it is presented. It is an empty, if not off-putting, experience in all senses compared to the traditional dining car.



I think you're missing a third opinion that a fair number of us hold: I want the food on the train to be good enough that I don't get off the train after a long ride feeling queasy from preservative and sugar overload.

If that means food-in-a-box during the current epidemic, so be it. But please, however it's prepared and presented, provide some less-highly-processed alternatives for those of us who don't eat fast food for most of our meals.


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## Skyline

Seaboard92 said:


> No it wouldn't work let me give you the best case study for why it won't work.
> 
> The American European Express/ Greenbriar Limited/ American Orient Express/ Grand Luxe Express/ Greenbriar Presidential Train
> 
> I am grouping the five different trains together because they shared the same exact equipment set, and for the most part were all part of the same basic idea. Providing a luxury rail based cruise around America.
> 
> First off the American European Express (AEE) operated their cars similar to how Iowa Pacific's Pullman Rail Journey's operated theirs. They initially operated six days a week on the rear of the Capitol Limited in two five car trainsets each with three sleepers, a diner, and a lounge. However the ridership didn't metabolize for it. Granted the Capitol Limited would not have been the route I would have chosen for a service like this, rather I would have chosen the California Zephyr west of Denver, or the Coast Starlight. This operation ran from November 1989 to December 1990.
> 
> Greenbriar Limited (GL) . The theory on this train was that it would cater to tourists, and tour groups going to the Greenbriar Hotel in West Virginia and the train would run from Washington, DC to Chicago, IL. Passengers could get off and stay at the hotel for awhile before getting on one of the next departures. This train ran smooth for a few months before a grade crossing incident happened that put most of the consist on the ground. However the train stayed consistently profitable, and they were even going to try a New York-Florida train in the winter. However a trespasser strike on the NEC on the test run spooked the investors and they withdrew their support. All in all it lasted an entire year.
> 
> American Orient Express (AOE): Now this was the real deal, at times it was a massive 21-24 car consist with 13 sleepers, 2-3 crew cars, an observation, a super dome, conventional lounge cars, and a dining cars. Now this train was a true work of art everything inside was beautifully appointed and well taken care of. They ran a variety of routes across the USA with Amtrak providing the locomotives and operating crews. They ran from Washington, DC to Los Angeles on the Grand Transcontinental (WAS-RVR-CHS-SAV-NOL-KCY-ABQ-Grand Canyon-LAX), but the most popular trips were the ones that ran out of Salt Lake City, UT the National Parks of the West, or the Great Northwest. This train had a fairly long run from 1994 to 2006. I actually got to tour the train on its last voyage east back in 2005.
> 
> Grand Luxe Express (GLX): This was owned by the owner of Colorado Railcar (another failed business at this point) and concentrated mostly on the two really strong routes in the American Orient Express playbook the National Parks of the West and the Great Northwest. They also went back to their routes on the AEE by offering a few cars on the rear of regularly scheduled Amtrak moves as well. But shortly after they bought the train in 2006 the 2008 recession hit and the company went bankrupt and the cars were sold.
> 
> Greenbriar Presidential Express (GPE): This is a still born train of the same exact rolling stock that was supposed to run from Washington, DC to the Greenbriar. However this one never turned a wheel, and the host railroads are allegedly to blame for that. The cars have again been sold and are all across the country now.
> 
> I've worked two of the cars from this train.




Each of these examples should be viewed as learning opportunities should Amtrak ever decide this market has possibilities. Take what they did right, what they did wrong, and what they may have had no control over into consideration.

Amtrak has an advantage over these private corporations and investors. It should have federal dollars to draw upon in the ramp-up, and potentially a future administration and congress that could help navigate roadblocks caused by operating railroads. 

It's not the right time to actually move on any expansion of service. Once Covid-19 is resolved, and the economy rebounds, it might be. For now, passenger rail advocates have a full plate just trying to maintain service at current levels. But there is no harm in discussing future projects and even giving them serious study.


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## Skyline

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think the “experimental market” was just talk. If anything I think we’d see something on the coast starlight. They can bring back the Parlour Car service anytime they want with SSL’s.



*Experiential* -- not experimental.


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## RichieRich

Sidney said:


> Also the price for sleepers should be adjusted for the huge downgrade in food service.


LOL We paid $3,600 on the AT at Xmas...taking 10 bucks of the price is rather irrelevant! How much would you suggest they discount without food?


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## 20th Century Rider

RichieRich said:


> LOL We paid $3,600 on the AT at Xmas...taking 10 bucks of the price is rather irrelevant! How much would you suggest they discount without food?


The fare reduction should reflect a substantial percentage of what they now charge for sleeper service... as determined by: 1] elimination of dining car and staff; 2] elimination of meals and value of such as posted on previous menus. Customers such as myself see this as a devaluation of product; which needs to be justifiably accommodated in repricing. As in, 'Don't make me a hostage of my love for rail travel... such loyalty has its limits.'


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## crescent-zephyr

Skyline said:


> *Experiential* -- not experimental.



Ohhhh you told me!


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## toddinde

Sidney said:


> I read in another forum that a high level official on Amtrak said full service dining will not return. If that is the case,and I have a feeling it is,there should be other offerings like sandwiches and pizza. Isn't there a refrigerator? Also the price for sleepers should be adjusted for the huge downgrade in food service.


The doom and gloom is unwarranted. Dining service will return because it has to. It just makes sense to not have it. It may change however. I happen to believe that better food service will emerge post pandemic. During the Boardman years, Amtrak pulled the diner off the Silver Star with only the clearly deficient cafe car. By any measure, contemporary dining is an improvement over that. Long ignored are the long distance trains with poor food service. The Palmetto, Maple Leaf and Adirondack are examples. We need to get to a place where trains operating over multiple meal periods have full, quality dining. In Europe, this is routine. I’m a big fan of the Deutsche Bahn cars that have a carry out cafe on one side, a center kitchen, and sit down service on the other. A two or three person crew staffs these cars. The menu is not exhaustive, and the entrees pre-made, but it’s good quality and tasty. These cars should be open throughout the trip so there isn’t just a rush at meal times. At seat and in room service should augment where necessary. Once we get over the threat of tri-weekly trains and get Amtrak into growth mode, the food service will follow.


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## crescent-zephyr

toddinde said:


> By any measure, contemporary dining is an improvement over that.



I disagree. And yes I rode the star during the cafe only period and I rode the meteor during the current contemporary meals.


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## JoeShmo

I am taking the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited in a few months, Chicago/Tucson, and I am hoping that regular dining is back by then. The dining menu is a big reason, though not the only reason, that I prefer a roomette.


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## mitako

I called Amtrak yesterday to modify an upcoming trip. Asked agent about the flex dining and he said Amtrak still claims it will go back to traditional dining after August 31, but that "could change." I told him I personally don't believe it will ever return, but I hope I am proved wrong. 

My trip in September cost around $2,000 for train tickets, and hubby and I will be on trains for around 80 hours total. That's a lot of $$$$$ and a lot of hours to spend eating salty, overly sauced, gross looking meals.


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> If it's only temporary because of the pandemic, I'm OK with it, so maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves here. After all, Amtrak did say at the outset of this that it would restore full-service dining on the western trains when the health emergency has passed. But because of how Amtrak has handled meal service on the eastern trains, some of us don't have a lot of confidence that management will make good on its restoration promise -- especially with the financial pressures of prolonged low ridership as the pandemic lingers or worsens in much of the country. As you say, we shall see. I am not at all keen on traveling until we see virus cases go way down nationwide. But if we beat the virus and still have no dining service, I'll keep staying home.


In complete agreement with everything you said. They are saying they will restore full meal service; but if that threshold passes and they don't, that will indeed cement a credibility issue. As far as my personal loyalty and trust... they will have lost it.


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## PVD

If it goes back, the meals might look a bit better, but there is a very good chance they fill still not make a nutritionist smile. The Adirondack and Maple Leaf were mentioned earlier, since they are mostly? paid for by NYS don't expect any great changes. They won't pay for a cafe car service on any train that doesn't go past Albany, do you think they will upgrade the ones that do? I'm certainly not against it, just not holding my breath.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

toddinde said:


> By any measure, contemporary dining is an improvement over that.


No it's not... because passengers are being charged for full service dining. Flex meals are not full service dining.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> In complete agreement with everything you said. They are saying they will restore full meal service; but if that threshold passes and they don't, that will indeed cement a credibility issue. As far as my personal loyalty and trust... they will have lost it.



It’s been no secret that Amtrak management wanted to roll out “contemporary dining” nation-wide. This was the excuse to do that. 

Are any of the dining car commissaries still operating?


----------



## jiml

This is not just an Amtrak thing. VIA Rail offers a bag of chips and one bottle of water on all trains right now - including several trains with durations of 10 - 12 hours and one with two overnights. "Our complete meal and beverage service is suspended on all our routes.
Passengers with dietary restrictions are asked to plan accordingly." A recent reviewer of a 4 1/2 hour Air Canada flight received a granola bar, a bottle of water and a tiny dispenser of hand sanitizer in Business Class. Either of these alternatives makes Amtrak's current offerings look at least acceptable, with the ability to access a cafe car an added bonus.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> This is not just an Amtrak thing. VIA Rail offers a bag of chips and one bottle of water on all trains right now - including several trains with durations of 10 - 12 hours and one with two overnights. "Our complete meal and beverage service is suspended on all our routes.
> Passengers with dietary restrictions are asked to plan accordingly." A recent reviewer of a 4 1/2 hour Air Canada flight received a granola bar, a bottle of water and a tiny dispenser of hand sanitizer in Business Class. Either of these alternatives makes Amtrak's current offerings look at least acceptable, with the ability to access a cafe car an added bonus.



What via rail train is operating overnight right now?


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## jiml

Winnipeg to Churchill.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Joel Clemmer said:


> The opinions on Amtrak flex food service seem to break into two: (1.) "I do not ride the train for the food so get over it" or (2.) "I feel strongly about the [french-toast/surf-turf/whatever] and demand their return."


Something that seems to get lost in the dining discussion is the concept of value for money. If Amtrak was charging _Silver Starvation_ prices for California Zephyr and Empire Builder sleeper tickets then maybe the blowback would be relatively mild, but if they want to charge full service fares for generic TV tray meals then you better believe that's not going to fly with a lot of members. The lack of dependable access to ice reported by recent travelers dilutes the value even further by restricting the kinds of food you can bring with you to work around the other limitations.


----------



## Exvalley

Absolutely agree. I see no value in a meal that I can buy for $3 in the freezer aisle.


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## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Something that seems to get lost in this discussion is the concept of value. If Amtrak was charging _Silver Starvation_ prices for California Zephyr and Empire Builder sleeper tickets then maybe the blowback would be minimal, but if they want to charge full service fares for generic TV tray meals then you better believe that's not going to fly with a lot of members. The lack of dependable access to ice reported by recent travelers also makes bringing your own food a more tedious and difficult process as well. I've yet to see anything that indicates properly handled food is a major infection vector so I consider most of these changes to be based on lazy bean counting rather than proactive life saving.


Exactly! This is what so many of us are concerned about... Amtrak has sharply reduced the value of the product to 'bare bones' without reducing the price!


----------



## Seaboard92

crescent-zephyr said:


> AOE did ok financially for a while. All of these operations (Iowa Pacific included) are complex. It's not as simple as as "that operation lose money"
> 
> Seaboard (and others...) do you remember when Colorado Rail Car had the plan for "Golden Eagle Journeys" or something like that... they had a website up at one point and they were advertising the custom bi-level cars they were going to use. The rear observation car was going to be built like a bi-level gallery car so it was a multi level lounge open to the floor with a baby grand piano. Would have been amazing if if had happened.



I do remember seeing some of the marketing for that. The cars they were going to use were very similar to the failed Marlboro Train. And that rear observation was going to basically end up looking like a two story Milwaukee Road Skytop car. Personally I've never taken Colorado Railcar that serious because their products in my opinion totally stink. From the DMU in Portland that is so unreliable they had to buy a 1950s era RDC car to supplement it, to the "domes" that are more like a sightseer lounge than anything else. 



Skyline said:


> Each of these examples should be viewed as learning opportunities should Amtrak ever decide this market has possibilities. Take what they did right, what they did wrong, and what they may have had no control over into consideration.
> 
> Amtrak has an advantage over these private corporations and investors. It should have federal dollars to draw upon in the ramp-up, and potentially a future administration and congress that could help navigate roadblocks caused by operating railroads.
> 
> It's not the right time to actually move on any expansion of service. Once Covid-19 is resolved, and the economy rebounds, it might be. For now, passenger rail advocates have a full plate just trying to maintain service at current levels. But there is no harm in discussing future projects and even giving them serious study.



I honestly don't think this is a business Amtrak should get into again. Now if someone wants to do it and charter Amtrak locomotives and crews that I think Amtrak should pursue. However they should not go into the business of just luxury travel on one or two tourist oriented routes. It would set a bad precedent that Amtrak's only usefulness is as a tourist oddity much like VIA's Canadian is turning into. Now running it as a charter for someone else I don't see the issue because a group has hired them to provide transportation which is basically what Amtrak's mission is. The only difference is they are riding in privately owned rolling stock, managed, and marketed by an outside company. Amtrak is still providing their basic service of transportation, and then it isn't tainted by the bad precedent. 

In my opinion if an operator would step in and resurrect the AOE they should focus on the two best routes only. National Parks of the West (ABQ-Grand Canyon-Las Vegas-SLC-West Yellowstone-SLC, and the Great Northwest and Rockies SLC-West Yellowstone-Helena-Glacier National Park-SEA. Those seam to be the strongest markets in my opinion. 



jiml said:


> This is not just an Amtrak thing. VIA Rail offers a bag of chips and one bottle of water on all trains right now - including several trains with durations of 10 - 12 hours and one with two overnights. "Our complete meal and beverage service is suspended on all our routes.
> Passengers with dietary restrictions are asked to plan accordingly." A recent reviewer of a 4 1/2 hour Air Canada flight received a granola bar, a bottle of water and a tiny dispenser of hand sanitizer in Business Class. Either of these alternatives makes Amtrak's current offerings look at least acceptable, with the ability to access a cafe car an added bonus.


Well two of those 10-12 hour trains should be a daylight train by schedule. However CN has asked VIA to run those two trains in the middle of the night due to excessive heat. I personally think thats a bad precedent to set. It also negates the use of those two routes usefulness to the communities served. Now that being said I believe and NS Via Fan can probably prove this. I want to say up until the 80s there were both day and night trains on those two rural routes in Quebec.


----------



## Sidney

When the Lake Shore and Capitol Ltd went to Flex dining almost two years ago there was no reduction in sleeper prices. Same when the remainder of the trains dropped full service dining.

I have a trip coming up in September. I used points from Chicago to LA and back and cash on the Eastern trains. I just can't justify the sleeper prices. I am taking the Lake Shore from Chicago to Utica. $340. I know that includes the rail fare,but paying that much for one overnight and that substandard breakfast is not worth it. I did opt for business class. Hopefully I can still have both seats to myself.

I've been reading posts about full service dining returning in September on the Western trains. I hope so,but I have a feeling this flexible dining isn't going away anytime soon.


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## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> Well two of those 10-12 hour trains should be a daylight train by schedule. However CN has asked VIA to run those two trains in the middle of the night due to excessive heat. I personally think thats a bad precedent to set. It also negates the use of those two routes usefulness to the communities served. Now that being said I believe and NS Via Fan can probably prove this. I want to say up until the 80s there were both day and night trains on those two rural routes in Quebec.


I wasn't aware they were doing this. I do think you're correct (subject to verification from Nova Scotia) about the extra frequencies, since one originated in Quebec City rather than Montreal. I believe the tracks are still in place to permit this too.

Anyway, those and the Sudbury train are long routes to have no access to food. The Churchill train is just nuts.


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## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> The Churchill train is just nuts.



Do you know for a fact that the Churchill train has no food service?


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## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Do you know for a fact that the Churchill train has no food service?


From the VIA website:

VIA Rail’s Winnipeg-Churchill route will no longer be offering Sleeper Plus class, until November 1st. A modified meal service will be in place. All passengers will receive a complimentary snack and water. No other food or beverage service will be offered and passengers with food restrictions are being asked to plan accordingly.


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## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> From the VIA website:
> 
> VIA Rail’s Winnipeg-Churchill route will no longer be offering Sleeper Plus class, until November 1st. A modified meal service will be in place. All passengers will receive a complimentary snack and water. No other food or beverage service will be offered and passengers with food restrictions are being asked to plan accordingly.



Yes I’m able to read a website as well.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes I’m able to read a website as well.


Yup... pretty bleak!


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## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes I’m able to read a website as well.


Do you think they're picking up food enroute? As of last word, all VIA commissaries in the country are closed until further notice, along with all lounges. Food service on all trains recently has consisted of either a bag of chips or a granola bar (depending on time of day) and one bottle of water. No coffee, soda or food of any kind.


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## crescent-zephyr

jiml said:


> Do you think they're picking up food enroute? As of last word, all VIA commissaries in the country are closed until further notice, along with all lounges. Food service on all trains recently has consisted of either a bag of chips or a granola bar (depending on time of day) and one bottle of water. No coffee, soda or food of any kind.



I’m not sure what the “modified meal service” is. Could be a few different things but this is only operating as essential service correct? I’m not sure what the Canadian Government is saying but I know they have been stricter than the USA and I’m guessing people are encouraged not to travel right now?

I’ll agree that a limited menu cafe is better than a bottle of water and a granola bar that’s for sure.


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## ShiningTimeStL

The website says that traditional dining is suspended "through August 31." So theoretically we have a month of traditional dining and daily service until Amtrak's presumed downward death spiral begins. Start planning your trips now!


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## me_little_me

Remember the time it took from announcement of the "flex menu" to its implementation vs the announcement of "new bedding" vs the failure to ever provide it before the pandemic. The pandemic is just giving Amtrak an excuse to see if the new meals will "fly" everywhere IMHO.


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> This is exactly how I feel about it. There has hardly been a time in the past 35 years that I haven't had a future long-distance train trip at some level of planning, but right now I have nothing pending or even imagined. Partly it's the coronavirus, but it's also the food. I expect at some point I'll spend down my cache of AGR points on short-haul corridor runs, which to me are the only things Amtrak still does well.


'You took the words right out of my mouth...' When we're all saying the same thing about the collapsing service, 'that says something.' This pandemic will end... hope it's not the end of rail travel as well!


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## joelkfla

If they were planning to resume full food service after 8/31, I would assume it's dependent on COVID subsiding. I don't think COVID will be subsiding anytime soon.


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## Steve4031

I dislike these meals. But I have friends who work for Amtrak. Each of them have encouraged me to ride as long as I was healthy. A conductor on 50 thanked me for supporting Amtrak when he noticed I was select plus. He only knew this because I was asking to get off the train at Alexandria versus Union Station. I knew this request might require extra work on his part and I was humbled by his words of encouragement. It was several sentences long. Not just a rote phrase. 

So I have a round trip to Portland in August on the Empire Builder. Then a ride up to Eugene to try out the Talgo train. I'll ride back on 14 to Portland, spend one night, and then catch 28 back.


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## Albi

mitako said:


> My trip in September cost around $2,000 for train tickets, and hubby and I will be on trains for around 80 hours total. That's a lot of $$$$$ and a lot of hours to spend eating salty, overly sauced, gross looking meals.



I took a lengthy trip in May from Austin to LA (Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited), then to Chicago with the Chief and from there to Philadelphia with the Cardinal. The service was mostly subpar (with exceptions) and the flexible dining was no way near what it used to be last year in the dining car.

So I complained, and I got a voucher of $300. My 3 train rides were slightly over $1300 so I thought it was handled well. 

You must complain, they must hear it everyday from frustrated, paying customers that their product and service is unacceptable for the price, then they will get their act together. Eventually. Hopefully.


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## Maverickstation

lordsigma said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we see the dining service come back to some, but possibly not all, of the western routes. We'll just have to wait and see.



Looking at Amtrak's past, having a couple of trains with traditional dining, and the rest with Flex Dining would not surprise me.
In 2006, when Amtrak lunched the SDS program, as in Simplified Dining Service, The Empire Builder, and The Coast Starlight offered, Enhanced Dining Service. At that point, only The Empire Builder offered Steak, and at Breakfast, Eggs Cooked As You Like Them.

Here is a rider viewpoint of the SDS Service









The SDS Dining Car Diet


For those of you on here who asked me to post my experience with Amtrak's new Simplified Dining Service (SDS) system in the dining cars during my cross-country trip last week, here's the meal-by-meal rundown: Dinner 18MAR06 (Train 29, The Capitol Limited) I was seated in 2nd of 3 coaches. The coach…



amtrak.livejournal.com





Ken


----------



## Barb Stout

Sidney said:


> I have a trip coming up in September. I used points from Chicago to LA and back and cash on the Eastern trains. I just can't justify the sleeper prices. I am taking the Lake Shore from Chicago to Utica. $340. I know that includes the rail fare,but paying that much for one overnight and that substandard breakfast is not worth it. I did opt for business class. Hopefully I can still have both seats to myself.


Does "business class" have another name on the Lakeshore Limited? I have taken that train a few times and never noticed a "business class" option.


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## fdaley

Barb Stout said:


> Does "business class" have another name on the Lakeshore Limited? I have taken that train a few times and never noticed a "business class" option.



The business class seats are on the Boston section (trains 448/449), in one end of the lounge car. The operation has been a bit inconsistent the past couple of years, with the Boston section often canceled for track work and other issues.


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## PVD

If you look at 48/49 you won't see BC even when it does run, since it belongs to 448/449 and it joins/leaves at Albany and does not run South towards NYP (also answers the why is there no cafe car between NYP and ALB on the LSL)


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## Maglev

The quality of food in the full-service diners was poor, while pre-cooked meals of the type served in first class on airlines can be very good. It has been many years since Amtrak has used diners to their full capabilities, for example eliminating the staff to wash dishes. The job of the chef became mostly reheating food. I doubt we ever see a return to labor-intensive dining, but think that AMtrak could do a good job with pre-cooked meals.


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## jimdex

Most of this discussion seems to assume that Amtrak first-class fares are based at least in part on the cost of serving meals. Even though Amtrak does indeed transfer some of the sleeping car revenue to the dining car account, I'm not sure that's the basis of the fare. Fares appear to be based purely on supply and demand. In other words, Amtrak charges the maximum fare it can get while still filling up the space. Presumably, if enough potential riders are turned off by the new meal service, demand and fares will fall automatically. But that -- I suspect -- is the extent of the linkage.


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## crescent-zephyr

Maglev said:


> The quality of food in the full-service diners was poor, while pre-cooked meals of the type served in first class on airlines can be very good. It has been many years since Amtrak has used diners to their full capabilities, for example eliminating the staff to wash dishes. The job of the chef became mostly reheating food. I doubt we ever see a return to labor-intensive dining, but think that AMtrak could do a good job with pre-cooked meals.



In my experiences and opinion, traditional Amtrak dining (not including Simplified Dining Years) is better than domestic first class. But domestic first class is much better than the current contemporary dining. 

If by “many years” since Amtrak had staff to wash dishes on board you mean... 4 or 5 years? Sure.


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## Devil's Advocate

jimdex said:


> Most of this discussion seems to assume that Amtrak first-class fares are based at least in part on the cost of serving meals. Even though Amtrak does indeed transfer some of the sleeping car revenue to the dining car account, I'm not sure that's the basis of the fare. Fares appear to be based purely on supply and demand. In other words, Amtrak charges the maximum fare it can get while still filling up the space.


I doubt anyone who can speak freely knows how Amtrak actually prices their sleeper fares. Statements to the contrary seem to be based on little more than anecdotal evidence specific to a given route, region, or season. I've seen enough empty sleepers priced at or near the high bucket fare to take blanket claims of supply and demand with a grain of salt. That being said nothing about Amtrak's opaque pricing structure prevents me from _choosing_ to include meal quality when evaluating suitability for purchase.


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## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> That being said nothing about Amtrak's opaque pricing structure prevents me from _choosing_ to include meal quality when evaluating suitability for purchase.


Amen!


----------



## Exvalley

It's possible that Amtrak's dining car relationship with Aramark may ultimately result in better meals on western trains, but not traditional dining car meals. In other words, meals that resemble what VIA offers on the Ocean and Canadian. I could live with that as a happy medium.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Exvalley said:


> It's possible that Amtrak's dining car relationship with Aramark may ultimately result in better meals on western trains, but not traditional dining car meals. In other words, meals that resemble what VIA offers on the Ocean and Canadian. I could live with that as a happy medium.



The Canadian is full service traditional dining with full dining car staff. 

What is the staffing on the Ocean? I’m guessing it’s the same as Amtrak’s pre-contemporary dining car staffing.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Canadian is full service traditional dining with full dining car staff.
> 
> What is the staffing on the Ocean? I’m guessing it’s the same as Amtrak’s pre-contemporary dining car staffing.


On the Ocean, during off-peak season, there were a total of 4 or 5 staff in the diner and adjacent lounges - depending on direction. The sleeper lounge attendant/bartender also plated and warmed the pre-prepared food, there were 2 or 3 waitstaff and an attendant/bartender in the coach lounge. The latter occasionally assisted with clearing tables or delivering desserts, but for the most part it was a crew of 3 eastbound and 4 westbound - all busy, all hard-working. Food was very good even though not "cooked from scratch" onboard.


----------



## Dakota 400

Maglev said:


> The quality of food in the full-service diners was poor, while pre-cooked meals of the type served in first class on airlines can be very good. It has been many years since Amtrak has used diners to their full capabilities, for example eliminating the staff to wash dishes. The job of the chef became mostly reheating food. I doubt we ever see a return to labor-intensive dining, but think that AMtrak could do a good job with pre-cooked meals.



I agree with your thoughts other than the quality of food when we had full service diners. In my experience, those meals were as good as or better than what domestic first class air meals were.

The return of labor-intensive dining is unlikely. The dining quality and service that I experienced in December/January of 2018-2019 on the Silver Meteor and on the Auto Train in January of this year was good to very good. I'd be satisfied if that standard of food service could be re-established.


----------



## Exvalley

crescent-zephyr said:


> The Canadian is full service traditional dining with full dining car staff.



Sorry about that. I thought that the meals were cooked offsite, similar to the Ocean.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Exvalley said:


> Sorry about that. I thought that the meals were cooked offsite, similar to the Ocean.



VIA Rail is a strange operation so it’s easy to get confused. The Canadian is nice but has had its own share of budget cuts as well. When I last rode several years ago the employees were complaining that they had just switched to plastic flowers vs. real. In recent photos I’ve noticed they no longer have the nice little jam jars for the plastic kraft jams. Little cuts even as prices go up. 

The bigger point is on the staffing levels- the ocean sounds like its operating like the Amtrak full service dining Cars were operating before contemporary dining. So the ocean sadly isn’t a compromise in between traditional dining and contemporary dining. 

I’m also wondering if it’s even possible to go back, as I suspect the dining car commissaries are no longer operating. But I’m not sure.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m also wondering if it’s even possible to go back, as I suspect the dining car commissaries are no longer operating. But I’m not sure.


It seems that now all we can talk about is what's in the rearview mirror. And over and over again, we see that exemplary services that once existed are almost never restored. 

Example... when coach meals were a part of air travel behind first class, they were removed by one airline, then removed by all airlines; replacing them with free water and 'for purchase' items. And yes, some airlines in Europe now charge for water and have removed so much seat space as to cause extreme discomfort and possible conflicts; as in 'air rage.'

So over and over again we can only speculate what will hold for air travel. As COVID storms on, it promises to change patterns of life we took for granted. 

Only one thing is for sure... change is constant.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> It seems that now all we can talk about is what's in the rearview mirror. And over and over again, we see that exemplary services that once existed are almost never restored.
> 
> Example... when coach meals were a part of air travel behind first class, they were removed by one airline, then removed by all airlines; replacing them with free water and 'for purchase' items. And yes, some airlines in Europe now charge for water and have removed so much seat space as to cause extreme discomfort and possible conflicts; as in 'air rage.'
> 
> So over and over again we can only speculate what will hold for air travel. As COVID storms on, it promises to change patterns of life we took for granted.
> 
> Only one thing is for sure... change is constant.


But Amtrak has no comparable competition. Airlines are all bottom feeding to fill their planes based on the cheapest price and, therefore, the least service. Even First Class has been cheapened although many of their customers seek out the best of the carriers. However, since most Business Class/First Class travel in planes is company-paid, most companies choose the lowest price even there.

Amtrak prices are more reflective of their costs albeit, they are trying to reduce losses by cutting those costs. Were they to receive the subsidies the airlines get, they'd have more money. But then, again, if they got above water and had enough capital, they could (but not necessarily would) be able to provide more and better service. So far, it seems that they only want to cut costs rather than try to increase revenue.

Your last statement is correct. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the change has to be a downhill one.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> But Amtrak has no comparable competition. Airlines are all bottom feeding to fill their planes based on the cheapest price and, therefore, the least service. Even First Class has been cheapened although many of their customers seek out the best of the carriers. However, since most Business Class/First Class travel in planes is company-paid, most companies choose the lowest price even there.
> 
> Amtrak prices are more reflective of their costs albeit, they are trying to reduce losses by cutting those costs. Were they to receive the subsidies the airlines get, they'd have more money. But then, again, if they got above water and had enough capital, they could (but not necessarily would) be able to provide more and better service. So far, it seems that they only want to cut costs rather than try to increase revenue.
> 
> Your last statement is correct. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the change has to be a downhill one.



It is easy to see why and how this discussion is going around and around... and much of what you say is true. But then bring in the examples of government funding propping rail service world wide because the infrastructure is dependent on vast amounts of land space. Amtrak is being expected to turn a profit so that no government funding is needed; which is in itself an issue because when it comes to addressing the common good. So food is the first thing to go. More funding would bring a higher level of service and greater ridership... but because rail is what it is, profits could still be too low to break even. Now bring in environmental concerns and roads laden with traffic congestion; and the government stepping in to ease transit problems... again, for the tax payers.

Today I am allowing myself to ramble across all the bewildering complexities of our rail dilemma. In the end, one must ask; is rail transit justified? Yes and no. Long distance makes life better for a small population living in rural areas. Transit in the megalopolis areas is becomes a priority issue do to transiting in densely populated areas threatened with smog from congested roads. Rail travel must transcend the desires of a few for recreational vacationing. It's about meeting the need for necessary mobility within our society as comfortable and efficiently as possible.

Bottom line... it would be great for all of us if we can figure out how to implement an environmentally qualitative rail solution to meet the desires and requirements of the citizenry to be mobile.


----------



## joelkfla

Exvalley said:


> Sorry about that. I thought that the meals were cooked offsite, similar to the Ocean.


I rode the Canadian Vancouver to Toronto 2 years ago, and the food was far superior to Amtrak's, with a rotating dinner menu featuring regional specialties, and fresh cooked breakfast including delicious pancakes served with _real _maple syrup. They also had a welcome aboard wine tasting in the lounge, and a local singer-songwriter traveling with the train and performing twice a day in the lounge or one of the domes for most of the trip.

That was 2 years ago, so I don't know whether it had been downgraded at all before the pandemic.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Reading those words made me dig out a photo of my trip... maple syrup to the right below my coffee. Also notice the little jam jars on the table, those have since been budget cut to the little plastic kraft jams.


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## joelkfla

crescent-zephyr said:


> Reading those words made me dig out a photo of my trip... maple syrup to the right below my coffee. Also notice the little jam jars on the table, those have since been budget cut to the little plastic kraft jams. View attachment 18303


Thanks for posting. I _thought _there were blueberries, but I couldn't remember for sure.


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## jiml

joelkfla said:


> Thanks for posting. I _thought _there were blueberries, but I couldn't remember for sure.








About Saskatoon Berries - Saskatoon Berry Institute







saskatoonberryinstitute.org





Not exactly the same thing, but similar. Usually called Juneberries in the US.


----------



## dlagrua

Amtrak is receiving better funding of late so I would believe that the restoration of food service will be tied to how rapidly the passengers return. This can be a difficult question though. If the trains start filling up again, then management may make the argument that full meal service is not needed. If ridership continues to be light then maybe the thinking could be how Amtrak can attract more ridership by offering more amenities. So far all that we have seen are cuts over the last few years... morning paper, chocolates, the elimination of ice, the flower on the dinner table, a switch to plastic plates and cups that pollute the environment, and now the "Flexible" TV dinner using even more plastic. 
My opinion is that full dining service is likely to return in 2021 after this Corona Virus scare is over but we do not have Amtrak leadership right now that is friendly to the long distance trains. The key is the elimination of the John Mica amendment to the transportation bill that forces Amtrak dining cars to be the first in recorded history to be a profitable enterprise for a railroad.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

dlagrua said:


> Amtrak is receiving better funding of late so I would believe that the restoration of food service will be tied to how rapidly the passengers return. This can be a difficult question though. If the trains start filling up again, then management may make the argument that full meal service is not needed. If ridership continues to be light then maybe the thinking could be how Amtrak can attract more ridership by offering more amenities. So far all that we have seen are cuts over the last few years... morning paper, chocolates, the elimination of ice, the flower on the dinner table, a switch to plastic plates and cups that pollute the environment, and now the "Flexible" TV dinner using even more plastic.
> My opinion is that full dining service is likely to return in 2021 after this Corona Virus scare is over but we do not have Amtrak leadership right now that is friendly to the long distance trains. The key is the elimination of the John Mica amendment to the transportation bill that forces Amtrak dining cars to be the first in recorded history to be a profitable enterprise for a railroad.


'According to Amtrak' in its FY21-25 Service Line Plans which came out this spring... mention is made of the passenger profile of those on Western LD services... "The current rider demographic skews heavily to retirees and train aficionados due to long trip times and less concern about on-time reliability. Our goal is to develop a more contemporary experience which leverages the important communal experience that the traditional rider expects with service options more attractive to Millennials."

Regarding the 'Contemporary Food Service Model,' "We are now offering updated food service for sleeping car customers on several single- night overnight trains, targeting improved flexibility and customer satisfaction while reducing food and beverage operating costs. Additionally, café menus are being enhanced and standardized to improve offerings to generate additional revenue, simplify processes and reduce operating costs. The service line will also benefit from the food and beverage point-of-sale system (POS) with improved features."

It appears that Amtrak decisions are solely independent of ridership views and opinions, and are based upon what management hierarchy comes up with to please the 'bean counters.' That's where we continue to hear... "Due to the overwhelming popularity of..." Pleasing millennials is just a form of justification within to firm up these plans. 

No different than the post office raising rates... all based upon operational infrastructure, management hierarchy, and pleasing the 'bean counters.' Customer opinion / satisfaction is not part of the equation.

Amtrak-Service-Line-Plans-FY21-25


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## Exvalley

20th Century Rider said:


> Our goal is to develop a more contemporary experience which leverages the important communal experience that the traditional rider expects with service options more attractive to Millennials."





20th Century Rider said:


> It appears that Amtrak decisions are solely independent of ridership views and opinions, and are based upon what management hierarchy comes up with to please the 'bean counters.'



These two sentences appear to be inconsistent.


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## crescent-zephyr

Exvalley said:


> These two sentences appear to be inconsistent.



Amtrak is the definition of inconsistent! 
These reports are sickening. Millennials don’t want TV dinners. The only people who defend the food are “train aficionados” that say the train ride is still worth it to them.


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## 20th Century Rider

Exvalley said:


> These two sentences appear to be inconsistent.


Amtrak goals are undocumented assumptions to fit the direction of what plans they want to make to save money. The first statement is taken directly from the Amtrak report. Much has been said on this forum questioning just what 'millennials' need; want; expect... and the validity of such to justify such changes for service.

The second statement questions such validity; “It appears that Amtrak decisions are solely independent of ridership views and opinions, and are based upon what management hierarchy comes up with to please the 'bean counters.”

So the second statement is my reaction to the questionable assumption of the report.


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## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak is the definition of inconsistent! These reports are sickening. Millennials don’t want TV dinners. The only people who defend the food are “train aficionados” that say the train ride is still worth it to them.


I honestly think most train fans probably aren't that happy with the new meals, but there appears to be a surprisingly vocal minority that seems to go out of their way to remind everyone else that there is almost nothing Amtrak can do to lose their future business. Which is fine I guess, but why do they think unquestioning acceptance would make for a compelling case to anyone but Ned Flanders?


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## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> I honestly think most train fans probably aren't that happy with the new meals, but there appears to be a surprisingly vocal Ned Flanders brigade that seems to go out of their way to remind everyone else that there is almost nothing Amtrak can do to lose their future business. Which is fine I guess, but why do they think unquestioning acceptance would make for a compelling rebuttal to anyone else?



What's frustrating for me is Amtrak's false justifications for those abysmal noxious meals. Millennial's like them? Where's the reliable survey that documents that conclusion??? 

I'd rather see them eliminate 'complementary' food completely even if it means lowering the cost just a little. It would be great to bring in a new thread to this forum on innovative ways to bring one's own food along that would be much more enjoyable and that would enhance the journey just as much as the traditional full service dining.


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## toddinde

crescent-zephyr said:


> I disagree. And yes I rode the star during the cafe only period and I rode the meteor during the current contemporary meals.


If you like a diet of Hebrew Nationals and microwave pizza, I’m sure it is.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

toddinde said:


> If you like a diet of Hebrew Nationals and microwave pizza, I’m sure it is.



I don’t. I Ordered the cheese and cracker plate, hummus and pretzel chips, and a chicken Caesar salad. (Lunch and dinner). I probably got some peanut m&ms for dessert.


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## Exvalley

I don’t think that Amtrak ever believed that millennials prefer flexible dining, at least as far as the food is concerned. I think it was an excuse. I also think that their recent statement is more forward-looking and that they genuinely want to develop products that appeal to millennials. This is because they did not say that they wanted to keep the status quo with Flexible Dining. So my hope is that they will put forth some effort into developing a product that will appeal to younger generations. But we are talking about Amtrak and I fully accept that my hopes may be dashed.


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## johnmiller

jimdex said:


> Most of this discussion seems to assume that Amtrak first-class fares are based at least in part on the cost of serving meals. Even though Amtrak does indeed transfer some of the sleeping car revenue to the dining car account, I'm not sure that's the basis of the fare. Fares appear to be based purely on supply and demand. In other words, Amtrak charges the maximum fare it can get while still filling up the space. Presumably, if enough potential riders are turned off by the new meal service, demand and fares will fall automatically. But that -- I suspect -- is the extent of the linkage.



Yeah, I'm definitely not riding until regular dining service has been brought back.


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## johnmiller

Sidney said:


> I read in another forum that a high level official on Amtrak said full service dining will not return. If that is the case,and I have a feeling it is,there should be other offerings like sandwiches and pizza. Isn't there a refrigerator? Also the price for sleepers should be adjusted for the huge downgrade in food service.



I'm not going if they don't bring back the regular dining service. Going to the Dining Car and interacting with others on the train is integral to the long-distance train experience. They, at the very least, need to talk to those who run first-class airliner dining services and see how they do it.


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## 20th Century Rider

Exvalley said:


> I don’t think that Amtrak ever believed that millennials prefer flexible dining, at least as far as the food is concerned. I think it was an excuse.


Exactly! And the 'millennials' generation is not even a factor... it's overall ridership / funding / revenue / profitability.


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## Rasputin

Devil's Advocate said:


> I honestly think most train fans probably aren't that happy with the new meals, but there appears to be a surprisingly vocal group that seems to go out of their way to remind everyone else that there is almost nothing Amtrak can do to lose their future business. Which is fine I guess, but why do they think unquestioning acceptance would make for a compelling case to anyone but Ned Flanders?


They will be still riding when it is a boxcar with folding chairs.


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## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> I read in another forum that a high level official on Amtrak said full service dining will not return. If that is the case,and I have a feeling it is,there should be other offerings like sandwiches and pizza. Isn't there a refrigerator? Also the price for sleepers should be adjusted for the huge downgrade in food service.


Unfortunately, and according to the latest Amtrak Service Line Plan, flex dining will become permanent. The only realistic hope then is that it will continue to 'evolve' into something more appropriate to the needs and tastes of the travel... along the line of what you said. Speaking for myself, dining has always been an important part of the experience and I will be very discouraged to spend those big bucks for LD trips.


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## 20th Century Rider

johnmiller said:


> I'm not going if they don't bring back the regular dining service. Going to the Dining Car and interacting with others on the train is integral to the long-distance train experience. They, at the very least, need to talk to those who run first-class airliner dining services and see how they do it.


You speak for a good many people on this forum!!!


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## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> What's frustrating for me is Amtrak's false justifications for those abysmal noxious meals. Millennial's like them? Where's the reliable survey that documents that conclusion???


I've personally seen evidence of how much they like it over the old meals.

On the Crescent in December, there was one group of 4 sleeper millennials enjoying their dinner in the "diner-lounge". Every single one of them chose to bring food back from the cafe. Not one of them chose the included Amtrak Garbage.

I should have taken a picture but I didn't think of it at the time.


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## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> I've personally seen evidence of how much they like it over the old meals.
> 
> On the Crescent in December, there was one group of 4 sleeper millennials enjoying their dinner in the "diner-lounge". Every single one of them chose to bring food back from the cafe. Not one of them chose the included Amtrak Garbage.
> 
> I should have taken a picture but I didn't think of it at the time.



Awesome take! Just goes to show you how irrelevant is the fake research to justify those tiny-tasteless, unhealthy, unsatisfying, disappointing, and cheap those 'flex' meals really are.

Amtrak should take a cue... if it cares... from the responses on this forum... most are probably some of the most enthusiastic and devoted rail travelers in the country!


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## lordsigma

My reading of the five year service line plan was not that flex dining would be expanded to all routes. It was that flex dining was the plan for the eastern routes (in a single modified Viewliner II food service car) and that the western routes would continue to have traditional offerings with perhaps eventual service tiers similar to VIA - if you notice that was under the heading experiential service plan and there was language in there directly referencing the need to approach the western trains differently because of the meals being more important to the experience Or something similar to that. Yes the word contemporary appeared there but I personally don’t take flex dining being rolled out to the western trains as what that section meant. And this experiential action item was listed as a separate entity from the roll out of flex dining for the eastern trains. Some of you I’m sure disagree with my interpretation of that and I respect that, but just sharing what I took from it. Obviously this was all pre Covid so who knows what will happen at this point.


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## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> My reading of the five year service line plan was not that flex dining would be expanded to all routes. It was that flex dining was the plan for the eastern routes (in a single modified Viewliner II food service car) and that the western routes would continue to have traditional offerings with perhaps eventual service tiers similar to VIA - if you notice that was under the heading experiential service plan and there was language in there directly referencing the need to approach the western trains differently because of the meals being more important to the experience Or something similar to that. Yes the word contemporary appeared there but I personally don’t take flex dining being rolled out to the western trains as what that section meant. And this experiential action item was listed as a separate entity from the roll out of flex dining for the eastern trains. Some of you I’m sure disagree with my interpretation of that and I respect that, but just sharing what I took from it. Obviously this was all pre Covid so who knows what will happen at this point.


This is what's in the Amtrak-Service-Line-Plans-FY21-25, pg 89. They keep referring to Millennials as justification for the way they are doing cost cutting... but as stated many times on this forum, such is not a realistic or accurate justification for removal of dining cars and replacing full service with flex meals.


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## Nick Farr

Honestly, I wasn't terribly impressed with the "Full Service" dining options to begin with. I miss the Signature Steak, but even that was about on par with what you'd find as the special at B-grade truck stop restaurant. There a lot they could do to enhance the overall experience, even assuming an on-board chef is never going to come back AND realizing that the train fan demographic has been decimated by COVID.

1) Eliminate the paperwork: Give the SCAs and Dining Car Attendants mobile devices to allow them to take orders, know which passengers have meals that have been ordered in advance, confirm service times, give reminders of when dinner items should be picked up, passengers checked in on, etc...and otherwise respond to passenger requests.

2) Better plating: Right now, "Flex Dining" is TV Dinners with a salad and sometimes a roll. Just as Flight Attendants or European Cafe Car attendants do, the staff can heat up different portions of a meal and serve them on actual plates or prepare a tray. I'm assuming they were already doing some version of this with the "Full Service" dining, but the plates and silverware tended to be all plastic.

3) Reusable Tableware: Get rid of the plastic. Reheat items in foil which can be recycled. Use plates and silverware. Airlines have trays and other systems for washing these items off the train, and with a little imagination Amtrak can cut down on a lot of waste and provide a better experience.

4) Local options: When going through Denver, I just order Postmates/Grubhub and pick up by dinner on the 6 (or sometimes lunch/breakfast on the 5). For about the same as it costs to truck things from Chicago all the way out and back, why not allow local providers the opportunity to create to-go meals ready for pickup at stops?

The other thing that nobody seems to be addressing is the *incredibly uneven service *that is really the differentiating factor. I've had SCAs that were amazingly attentive and SCAs that I saw twice in my two day journey. I had some DCAs that were great about coming around and taking orders and setting up meal times and DCAs that were surly and sometimes mean. I know there are union politics in play, but the sleeping car product will not survive in an era where consistent, friendly service is the norm even at the most economical ends of the market.

And, yes, of course I'm still going to be riding the Zephyr out to Reno no matter what happens...but I'm not sure if this experience will survive beyond the rail fans dying out, the folks who hate flying and the one-and-done bucket lister.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> This is what's in the Amtrak-Service-Line-Plans-FY21-25, pg 89. They keep referring to Millennials as justification for the way they are doing cost cutting... but as stated many times on this forum, such is not a realistic or accurate justification for removal of dining cars and replacing full service with flex meals. I read “different strategy” to mean that the approach needs to be different than the one night trains.
> 
> View attachment 18307


i went back and read it too. I don’t really read flexible dining when I read that. It sounds more like they had an idea for a tiered level of service that would appeal to different groups of riders while flex dining is clearly the plan for the eastern routes. I think they are stating here that the western trains require a different strategy than the one nighters.


----------



## railiner

I don't think so-called "millennials" are any different from 'the rest' of us...as far as enjoying sitting down at a table for traditional dining car service. The only difference, perhaps, is some of the choices on the menu, as in more 'healthy'...but then again, most people are trending towards that nowadays.

For those that prefer 'fast food take out'...there is the cafe. Not including meals with sleeper's is the way allow 'flexible choice'. Or, on the other hand, offer an optional meal 'package' to both sleeper and coach passengers....


----------



## Barb Stout

20th Century Rider said:


> It would be great to bring in a new thread to this forum on innovative ways to bring one's own food along that would be much more enjoyable and that would enhance the journey just as much as the traditional full service dining.


I just can't see how one could fit a cooler/container of food into a roomette with 2 people for the amount of time one would be on some of those long distance trains which is how I travel. It's tight enough as it is. And then the room to prep it? Long distance trains HAVE to have onboard meals for the passengers. Decoupling the meals from the sleeper prices is a good idea though. That way if I ate too much for lunch, I could skip supper without feeling I wasted my money.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> Honestly, I wasn't terribly impressed with the "Full Service" dining options to begin with. I miss the Signature Steak, but even that was about on par with what you'd find as the special at B-grade truck stop restaurant. There a lot they could do to enhance the overall experience, even assuming an on-board chef is never going to come back AND realizing that the train fan demographic has been decimated by COVID.
> 
> 1) Eliminate the paperwork: Give the SCAs and Dining Car Attendants mobile devices to allow them to take orders, know which passengers have meals that have been ordered in advance, confirm service times, give reminders of when dinner items should be picked up, passengers checked in on, etc...and otherwise respond to passenger requests.
> 
> 2) Better plating: Right now, "Flex Dining" is TV Dinners with a salad and sometimes a roll. Just as Flight Attendants or European Cafe Car attendants do, the staff can heat up different portions of a meal and serve them on actual plates or prepare a tray. I'm assuming they were already doing some version of this with the "Full Service" dining, but the plates and silverware tended to be all plastic.
> 
> 3) Reusable Tableware: Get rid of the plastic. Reheat items in foil which can be recycled. Use plates and silverware. Airlines have trays and other systems for washing these items off the train, and with a little imagination Amtrak can cut down on a lot of waste and provide a better experience.
> 
> 4) Local options: When going through Denver, I just order Postmates/Grubhub and pick up by dinner on the 6 (or sometimes lunch/breakfast on the 5). For about the same as it costs to truck things from Chicago all the way out and back, why not allow local providers the opportunity to create to-go meals ready for pickup at stops?
> 
> The other thing that nobody seems to be addressing is the *incredibly uneven service *that is really the differentiating factor. I've had SCAs that were amazingly attentive and SCAs that I saw twice in my two day journey. I had some DCAs that were great about coming around and taking orders and setting up meal times and DCAs that were surly and sometimes mean. I know there are union politics in play, but the sleeping car product will not survive in an era where consistent, friendly service is the norm even at the most economical ends of the market.
> 
> And, yes, of course I'm still going to be riding the Zephyr out to Reno no matter what happens...but I'm not sure if this experience will survive beyond the rail fans dying out, the folks who hate flying and the one-and-done bucket lister.


Well thought out reply... with valid points... including what you said about all those disposable plastics going into landfills; and the incredibly uneven service. It will be interesting to see what ultimately happens...


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## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> i went back and read it too. I don’t really read flexible dining when I read that. It sounds more like they had an idea for a tiered level of service that would appeal to different groups of riders while flex dining is clearly the plan for the eastern routes. I think they are stating here that the western trains require a different strategy than the one nighters.


I don't think anyone knows where Amtrak is really going with the food program... but when they say, "...The strategy includes redesigning sleeper cars, contemporary seating in dining/lounge cars similar to current living space trends, updated menus and service equipment..." sounds a lot like what they said to justify the flex meals. 

So... Just what are the terms 'current living space trends; updated menus.' What does that mean and from what source do those terms actually come from? I'm concerned that when they refer to a modern day concept... such as millennial preferences... it totally lacks rationale.


----------



## Nick Farr

railiner said:


> I don't think so-called "millennials" are any different from 'the rest' of us...as far as enjoying sitting down at a table for traditional dining car service.



Hard disagree, from both my own personal experience and what I have observed.

I'm sure there is a class of rail fans who doesn't mind reservations, being forced to sit with total strangers AND being barked at by DCAs who will forget something about your order. The paperwork involved and the need to sign a form not attached to a credit card receipt is something that throws off the under 40 set. That being said, I'm hard pressed to find many folks under 40 who will find this kind of a product acceptable and we haven't even gotten to the food offerings yet.

While those over 40 in age or BMI were totally happy with the offerings, every pre-COVID time I've dined in the car I've heard someone at my table ask "can I just get a dinner salad" or "is there a soup option"?

Until you fix the service aspect, you're not going to be able to decouple the cost of dining from the sleepers--unless you just call Amtrak to complain about the service and essentially get that portion refunded to you.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Barb Stout said:


> I just can't see how one could fit a cooler/container of food into a roomette with 2 people for the amount of time one would be on some of those long distance trains which is how I travel. It's tight enough as it is. And then the room to prep it? Long distance trains HAVE to have onboard meals for the passengers. Decoupling the meals from the sleeper prices is a good idea though. That way if I ate too much for lunch, I could skip supper without feeling I wasted my money.


All good and valid points. I remember taking a trip in the early days of Amtrak... I brought along cold roasted chicken and potatoes wrapped in aluminum foil, some cookies and fruit, and wine. That works for an overnighter... but it would certainly take some ingenuity to figure out how to bring along food for longer periods of travel... in such a way that it's light and easy to carry. 

One could bring along some items such as cookies, fruit, cheese, and salami... and supplement with purchased food. All just thoughts; we will see what Amtrak offers as things evolve... and plan according to their own wishes.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> I don't think anyone knows where Amtrak is really going with the food program... but when they say, "...The strategy includes redesigning sleeper cars, contemporary seating in dining/lounge cars similar to current living space trends, updated menus and service equipment..." sounds a lot like what they said to justify the flex meals.
> 
> So... Just what are the terms 'current living space trends; updated menus.' What does that mean and from what source do those terms actually come from? I'm concerned that when they refer to a modern day concept... such as millennial preferences... it totally lacks rationale.


I know what it means. No furniture except one dirty couch and one broken chair. Bags of half-eaten food on the floor. Empty beer bottles littered all over. Remains of marijuana cigarettes. Netflix playing on the TV. Receipts from GrubHub everywhere. Psychedelic pictures on the wall.

Was I right? What prize do I get?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Hard disagree, from both my own personal experience and what I have observed.
> 
> I'm sure there is a class of rail fans who doesn't mind reservations, being forced to sit with total strangers AND being barked at by DCAs who will forget something about your order. The paperwork involved and the need to sign a form not attached to a credit card receipt is something that throws off the under 40 set. That being said, I'm hard pressed to find many folks under 40 who will find this kind of a product acceptable and we haven't even gotten to the food offerings yet.



These problems exist everywhere at Amtrak too. In business class on a Michigan train I was scolded for not ordering my free water separate from my paid snacks (how was I supposed to know?) and then I had to sign a receipt for a single “free” bottle of water.

Millennials don’t want TV dinners though I’m sure of that. I would argue that the contemporary dining was designed for railfans who are used to eating TV dinners alone while watching the Strasburg railcam. Or for older passengers who are used to TV dinner quality food at their retirement home.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> I don't think anyone knows where Amtrak is really going with the food program... but when they say, "...The strategy includes redesigning sleeper cars, contemporary seating in dining/lounge cars similar to current living space trends, updated menus and service equipment..." sounds a lot like what they said to justify the flex meals.
> 
> So... Just what are the terms 'current living space trends; updated menus.' What does that mean and from what source do those terms actually come from? I'm concerned that when they refer to a modern day concept... such as millennial preferences... it totally lacks rationale.



The living space trends refer to coffee shops etc. that have couches and lounge seating and encourage you to use the space as a “3rd space” - it would actually more closely resemble the old Pullman lounge cars but anything Amtrak has ever tried recently has been replaced with standard booth seating in just a few years “based on customer and employee feedback.”


----------



## tricia

Barb Stout said:


> I just can't see how one could fit a cooler/container of food into a roomette with 2 people for the amount of time one would be on some of those long distance trains which is how I travel. It's tight enough as it is. And then the room to prep it? Long distance trains HAVE to have onboard meals for the passengers. Decoupling the meals from the sleeper prices is a good idea though. That way if I ate too much for lunch, I could skip supper without feeling I wasted my money.



And even if you can find room for the cooler, there's no reliable access to ice along the way to keep things in it cold. That's one of the reasons I cancelled a three-night Amtrak trip recently: I can bring food along if I must, but living on nothing but shelf-stable snacks for several days is nearly as bad as the flex options--and not good enough for me to sign up for, for such a long trip.


----------



## Sidney

I don't understand why cafe car food can't be substituted for the flexible offerings. This did happen on an EB trip in June. At least it's a bit of variety. If fkex dining continues beyond September and I'm sure it will,there has to be some variety. Does anybody at Amtrak read these posts? They must have an inkling of the almost 100% negative response to the food situation on the Western trains.


----------



## lordsigma

crescent-zephyr said:


> These problems exist everywhere at Amtrak too. In business class on a Michigan train I was scolded for not ordering my free water separate from my paid snacks (how was I supposed to know?) and then I had to sign a receipt for a single “free” bottle of water.
> 
> Millennials don’t want TV dinners though I’m sure of that.


I would agree. While I do sometimes try to be the eternal optimist on this and while I don’t find food to be the overwhelming draw of the train for me, (For me it’s the adventure and sitting in my room and watching the world go by) I am a millennial and I would rather the traditional dining.


----------



## niemi24s

Sidney said:


> Does anybody at Amtrak read these posts?


I suspect Amtraks only use of these posts is to transfer them to audio and play them as punishment to employees deserving such cruel and unusual treatment .


> They must have an inkling of the almost 100% negative response to the food situation on the Western trains.


They _must_?? What leads you to believe that?


----------



## Willbridge

railiner said:


> I don't think so-called "millennials" are any different from 'the rest' of us...as far as enjoying sitting down at a table for traditional dining car service. The only difference, perhaps, is some of the choices on the menu, as in more 'healthy'...but then again, most people are trending towards that nowadays.
> 
> For those that prefer 'fast food take out'...there is the cafe. Not including meals with sleeper's is the way allow 'flexible choice'. Or, on the other hand, offer an optional meal 'package' to both sleeper and coach passengers....


The funny thing about the millennial angle is that in their choices of restaurants and bars they enjoy all of the things that current Amtrak management takes away. Until a few weeks before the police came and tear-gassed my street, I lived on Denver's Capitol Hill. It's an apartment house district and I liked the neighborhood coffee houses and saloons. Often they included communal tables. Sometimes we'd have a good cross-generational conversation -- exactly like being in a dining car! Some of the staff would send people over to my table to help them kick around travel ideas. Oddly enough, the potential millennial travelers wanted good food at reasonable prices, however they could get it. And they wanted to meet local people in the places they would visit.

The Amtrak millennial is not typical.


----------



## Rasputin

My millennial children are familiar with traveling by train, both coach and sleeper overnight but they are not railfans. They have no problem using the Acela service, the Pacific Surfliner, the Downeaster or the Capitol Corridor. They recognize these services as efficient and economical. However they tell me they have no intention of traveling on Amtrak long distance trains. They just have too few days off and they don't see much sense in taking 3 days out of their vacation to travel from the east coast to Flagstaff to visit the Grand Canyon and then three days to return. On the basis of what they tell me, I think Amtrak's efforts to turn its long distance train services on its head in order to attract millennials is a fool's errand.


----------



## Caro

tricia said:


> And even if you can find room for the cooler, there's no reliable access to ice along the way to keep things in it cold. That's one of the reasons I cancelled a three-night Amtrak trip recently: I can bring food along if I must, but living on nothing but shelf-stable snacks for several days is nearly as bad as the flex options--and not good enough for me to sign up for, for such a long trip.


And for those of us who come from abroad to enjoy the long distance trains, it just isn’t practiceable to add a cooler to our existing luggage or to cart enough food for a three or five day trip. Nor do we usually have the knowledge as to where to fill up between trains or where to hop off to collect from a local diner. Once normal times return I for one would not opt to travel on the LD trains if all that was on offer was the disgusting sounding food described on this forum. Sadly I suspect I have taken what turns out to be both my first and last US rail trip


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> This is what's in the Amtrak-Service-Line-Plans-FY21-25, pg 89. They keep referring to Millennials as justification for the way they are doing cost cutting... but as stated many times on this forum, such is not a realistic or accurate justification for removal of dining cars and replacing full service with flex meals.
> 
> View attachment 18307


I don't understand why they think Millennials don't want good food. I see them spending a LOT of money in expensive restaurants. WHY would the same people be willing to eat the miserable food Amtrak is serving?


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Nick Farr said:


> Hard disagree, from both my own personal experience and what I have observed.
> 
> I'm sure there is a class of rail fans who doesn't mind reservations, being forced to sit with total strangers AND being barked at by DCAs who will forget something about your order. The paperwork involved and the need to sign a form not attached to a credit card receipt is something that throws off the under 40 set. That being said, I'm hard pressed to find many folks under 40 who will find this kind of a product acceptable and we haven't even gotten to the food offerings yet.
> 
> While those over 40 in age or BMI were totally happy with the offerings, every pre-COVID time I've dined in the car I've heard someone at my table ask "can I just get a dinner salad" or "is there a soup option"?
> 
> Until you fix the service aspect, you're not going to be able to decouple the cost of dining from the sleepers--unless you just call Amtrak to complain about the service and essentially get that portion refunded to you.



Meals must be paid for separately and sleeper fares reduced. My suspicion, though, is that if they eliminate the all inclusive price they will not reduce ticket prices much at all. I agree that the whole dining concept needs rethinking but Amtrak's personnel are a major problem. Dining car staff bark at passengers, as you say. They order them where to sit. Order! Many are simply not suited to the job. They seem to resent it. The only justification for a train trip of two nights is that it is a kind of cruise, an experience. Amtrak has been unwilling to develop this concept. I would like to use up my Rewards points and then I will be finished with long distance trains in the US after decades of travel pre and post Amtrak. If conditions ever allow again I'll spend my money in other parts of the world where passengers are treated with some dignity, Spending well over $1,000 to cross the US (one way) in a train is insane given the very low level service provided, including very unreliable air conditioning. As for those Rewards points, the uncertainty of Covid travel restrictions that might be imposed after buying the ticket or even during the cross country trip or after arriving coupled with the risk of inadequate or no air conditioning deter me from making plans. I think too Amtrak has now dropped its no penalty cancellation policy despite the growing Covid outbreaks and despite airlines flexible cancellation policies.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

tricia said:


> And even if you can find room for the cooler, there's no reliable access to ice along the way to keep things in it cold. That's one of the reasons I cancelled a three-night Amtrak trip recently: I can bring food along if I must, but living on nothing but shelf-stable snacks for several days is nearly as bad as the flex options--and not good enough for me to sign up for, for such a long trip.



It's also dangerous for those of us on low sodium or other diets.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Caro said:


> And for those of us who come from abroad to enjoy the long distance trains, it just isn’t practiceable to add a cooler to our existing luggage or to cart enough food for a three or five day trip. Nor do we usually have the knowledge as to where to fill up between trains or where to hop off to collect from a local diner. Once normal times return I for one would not opt to travel on the LD trains if all that was on offer was the disgusting sounding food described on this forum. Sadly I suspect I have taken what turns out to be both my first and last US rail trip



You are quite right.


----------



## tricia

Ferroequinologist said:


> I think too Amtrak has now dropped its no penalty cancellation policy despite the growing Covid outbreaks and despite airlines flexible cancellation policies.



Amtrak is still waiving cancellation and change penalties and fees for all reservations made up to August 31. A few days ago I had no difficulty getting a full points refund for a trip I cancelled.


----------



## Nick Farr

Ferroequinologist said:


> Spending well over $1,000 to cross the US (one way) in a train is insane given the very low level service provided, including very unreliable air conditioning.



The one thing Amtrak can't take away from us is the views and the fact that we have a room for for 2-3 days. Combine hotel and airfare or the costs of any other mode of travel and it's roughly on par with those costs. 

Now I'm just thinking why can't we add our own rail car and experiment with service levels like we like!


----------



## RichieRich

johnmiller said:


> Going to the Dining Car and interacting with others on the train is integral to the long-distance train experience.


Not so much any more! "Interaction" with anyone is the last thing you'd want.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nick Farr said:


> The one thing Amtrak can't take away from us is the views and the fact that we have a room for for 2-3 days. Combine hotel and airfare or the costs of any other mode of travel and it's roughly on par with those costs.
> 
> Now I'm just thinking why can't we add our own rail car and experiment with service levels like we like!


How do you turn a Large Fortune into a Small One?
Go to Vegas, own a Race Horse/Yacht/Jet/Private Rail Car!!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> It's also dangerous for those of us on low sodium or other diets.



Going on the journey now means you're willing to pay big pricing for unhealthy food and poor service. Makes no sense to me and I will probably opt out of future Amtrak travel.

In the past a real motivator were the delicious meals included. I'm no longer motivated. There's a good possibility that most millennials would agree!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> Meals must be paid for separately and sleeper fares reduced. My suspicion, though, is that if they eliminate the all inclusive price they will not reduce ticket prices much at all. I agree that the whole dining concept needs rethinking but Amtrak's personnel are a major problem. Dining car staff bark at passengers, as you say. They order them where to sit. Order! Many are simply not suited to the job. They seem to resent it. The only justification for a train trip of two nights is that it is a kind of cruise, an experience. Amtrak has been unwilling to develop this concept. I would like to use up my Rewards points and then I will be finished with long distance trains in the US after decades of travel pre and post Amtrak. If conditions ever allow again I'll spend my money in other parts of the world where passengers are treated with some dignity, Spending well over $1,000 to cross the US (one way) in a train is insane given the very low level service provided, including very unreliable air conditioning. As for those Rewards points, the uncertainty of Covid travel restrictions that might be imposed after buying the ticket or even during the cross country trip or after arriving coupled with the risk of inadequate or no air conditioning deter me from making plans. I think too Amtrak has now dropped its no penalty cancellation policy despite the growing Covid outbreaks and despite airlines flexible cancellation policies.



It is probably fair to say that Amtrak is no longer connected with the passengers it serves. You point this out very well... and I'm in total agreement... I have experienced everything you've pointed out. You speak for me too!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

From what I’ve seen of where some millennials choose to sit, I think by changing to “contemporary living space trends,” Amtrak must mean removing all furniture and any attractive decoration from what was supposed to be a nice dining car, then promoting a “warehouse-style contemporary depressing bare bones floor for you to sit on so you will feel at home. Remember to sit in the middle of the floor so you can be in everyone else’s way and be as annoying as possible.”


----------



## me_little_me

Rasputin said:


> My millennial children are familiar with traveling by train, both coach and sleeper overnight but they are not railfans. They have no problem using the Acela service, the Pacific Surfliner, the Downeaster or the Capitol Corridor. They recognize these services as efficient and economical. However they tell me they have no intention of traveling on Amtrak long distance trains. They just have too few days off and they don't see much sense in taking 3 days out of their vacation to travel from the east coast to Flagstaff to visit the Grand Canyon and then three days to return. On the basis of what they tell me, I think Amtrak's efforts to turn its long distance train services on its head in order to attract millennials is a fool's errand.


In the past, when people asked me about rail travel (as well as in my Amtrak seminars) and the days to get there vs flying, I would tell them that flying is the punishment you have to do to enjoy yourself but overnight in a sleeper is as much a part of the vacation as is the destination and you will be telling people of the beautiful scenery, the opportunity to have a nice meal as the world goes by and an opportunity to sit down with strangers and leave as friends.

I can't say that any more. The first still exists. The second has been removed by Amtrak and may never return. The third has also been removed by Amtrak (not by the virus) as there is no reason to sit with strangers in the diner and end up talking for an hour about life, leaving as friends and then seeing them later and waving and saying hello although sitting with the next set of soon-to-be friends.

Amtrak is now just a slow but very expensive plane for those unable or unwilling to fly or drive.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> In the past, when people asked me about rail travel (as well as in my Amtrak seminars) and the days to get there vs flying, I would tell them that flying is the punishment you have to do to enjoy yourself but overnight in a sleeper is as much a part of the vacation as is the destination and you will be telling people of the beautiful scenery, the opportunity to have a nice meal as the world goes by and an opportunity to sit down with strangers and leave as friends.
> 
> I can't say that any more. The first still exists. The second has been removed by Amtrak and may never return. The third has also been removed by Amtrak (not by the virus) as there is no reason to sit with strangers in the diner and end up talking for an hour about life, leaving as friends and then seeing them later and waving and saying hello although sitting with the next set of soon-to-be friends.
> 
> Amtrak is now just a slow but very expensive plane for those unable or unwilling to fly or drive.



Yup! As so many of us are saying... Amtrak no longer cares about the customers it is supposed to be serving. This transit mode is now overpriced and irrelevant for many of us.


----------



## Manny T

I think I understand the point about Millennials -- imagine a big city fine dining restaurant with tablecloths, dim lighting, good service, fine cuisine, extensive wine list, multi-course meals, and 2.5 hours to dine -- see a lot of millennials eating there? No, it's all guys with expense accounts or well-heeled old folks. Your typical millennial will grab a slice of pizza after the gym, get a Starbucks and continue surfing social media all night.

That's Amtrak's argument -- millennials don't want restaurant style dining, they want grab-and-go. 

But Amtrak's argument is a fallacy -- the millennials aren't the ones riding Amtrak across the country. That market is composed of (relatively) well-heeled old folks, primarily, who are paying for their dining and by and large (if this forum is evidence) want their nice sit-down meals.

Amtrak's argument for flex-dining is fake, and it alienates the prime target audience for LD. 
Save money in the short run, and at the same time alienate the audience for long distance trains to justify their demise -- a "win-win" for Amtrak suits.


----------



## Exvalley

I could be mistaken, but it doesn’t seem to me that rail fans are getting any younger. If Amtrak wants to attract millennials they need to offer experiential travel, not just a method of getting from point A to point B. Millennials want the adventure itself. Better food, trivia contests, wine tastings and live music are what they need. Not TV dinners and a worn down room.


----------



## Exvalley

Manny T said:


> I think I understand the point about Millennials -- imagine a big city fine dining restaurant with tablecloths, dim lighting, good service, fine cuisine, extensive wine list, multi-course meals, and 2.5 hours to dine -- see a lot of millennials eating there? No, it's all guys with expense accounts or well-heeled old folks. Your typical millennial will grab a slice of pizza after the gym, get a Starbucks and continue surfing social media all night.


Millennials may not be eating in fine dining restaurants, but the are certainly dining in brewpubs, gastropubs and farm to table restaurants. They appreciate good food, but they also appreciate value. Neither of which Amtrak is offering right now.


----------



## Nick Farr

20th Century Rider said:


> It is probably fair to say that Amtrak is no longer connected with the passengers it serves. You point this out very well... and I'm in total agreement... I have experienced everything you've pointed out. You speak for me too!



I started riding the Pere Marquette in the 90s, and if we're being honest--has *Amtrak* as an *organization *ever connected with the passengers it serves?

I say this noting that I've been on trips with some really remarkable Sleeping Car Attendants (SCAs), one or two Dining Car Attendants and a really amazing Conductor who I will always be grateful to for this amazing picture:




I know there are amazing service staff at Amtrak who do everything in their power to create magic. Unfortunately, the culture of Amtrak service seems like one where the passengers are an inconvenience to be dealt with more than anything else.

While it may require a mild capital upgrade of the Dining Cars, retraining of the staff and probably a Union contract modification, it really would not take much more to make "Flex Dining" more appealing than some TV dinners.

The problem is the organizational culture isn't there to do it, from what I can see.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> I started riding the Pere Marquette in the 90s, and if we're being honest--has *Amtrak* as an *organization *ever connected with the passengers it serves?
> 
> I say this noting that I've been on trips with some really remarkable Sleeping Car Attendants (SCAs), one or two Dining Car Attendants and a really amazing Conductor who I will always be grateful to for this amazing picture:
> 
> View attachment 18318
> 
> 
> I know there are amazing service staff at Amtrak who do everything in their power to create magic. Unfortunately, the culture of Amtrak service seems like one where the passengers are an inconvenience to be dealt with more than anything else.
> 
> While it may require a mild capital upgrade of the Dining Cars, retraining of the staff and probably a Union contract modification, it really would not take much more make "Flex Dining" more appealing than some TV dinners.
> 
> The problem is the organizational culture isn't there to do it, from what I can see.


Hey... is that you Nick? You look good! If you were the conductor on the train I was riding I know it would be a great trip!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Amtrak board meeting - 

“You know what millennials want? Smaller salads. With only iceberg. And cheaper salad dressing.” 

Done! What else?

“A plastic bowl with all of the food frozen and cooked together so it all tastes like the salty sauce.” 

Easy! Next?

“No choice of dessert. Just a Brownie.”

Oh cmon we have to give them a choice...

“Ok fine... they can have a brownie or a blondie”

Isn’t that the same thing? 

“Yeah! Exactly.”


----------



## tonys96

dlagrua said:


> Amtrak is receiving better funding of late so I would believe that the restoration of food service will be tied to how rapidly the passengers return. This can be a difficult question though. If the trains start filling up again, then management may make the argument that full meal service is not needed. If ridership continues to be light then maybe the thinking could be how Amtrak can attract more ridership by offering more amenities. So far all that we have seen are cuts over the last few years... morning paper, chocolates, the elimination of ice, the flower on the dinner table, a switch to plastic plates and cups that pollute the environment, and now the "Flexible" TV dinner using even more plastic.
> My opinion is that full dining service is likely to return in 2021 after this Corona Virus scare is over but we do not have Amtrak leadership right now that is friendly to the long distance trains. The key is the elimination of the John Mica amendment to the transportation bill that forces Amtrak dining cars to be the first in recorded history to be a profitable enterprise for a railroad.



I wish, hope, pray that you are correct about full service dining. 
However, I seriously doubt it will come to pass, at least not in any form we have seen in the past 15 years.


----------



## flitcraft

Trying to 'rebrand' service to fit millennials for LD trains is a fool's errand. LD trains inherently cannot depend on the business of people whose jobs provide, at best, two weeks annual vacation. We hardly ever took LD trains back when my husband and I were both working full-time jobs with limited vacation time--that time was simply too precious to spend several days of it on slow trains. The US is unique among industrialized countries in its norms of extremely limited paid vacation time, and businesses compound that by making it difficult to take even unpaid leave. So, depending on the trade of folks in their prime earning years is not a winning business model.

That leaves two classes of travelers for LD trains--one of which are people in rural areas not well-served, or in many cases served at all, by buses and planes. Those folks are the mainstay of LD coach travel, and with the continuing degradation of bus and plane service to fly-over country, I would presume that this market isn't going away in the post-pandemic future. The other class are those who ride the trains but have the luxury of having plenty of time for train travel--and yes, a lot of them are retirees. Somehow Amtrak seems to think that once they all die off, that group will disappear, but I would imagine that the next generation of retirees that replaces them would be a fertile market for LD train service--as long as the experience in the sleepers and dining cars is an attractive one. After all, the scenery and relaxation are not going away--and Amtrak has no way to degrade them!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

this would be a huge improvement and is all pre-prepared food. 









Starbucks®







www.starbucks.com


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## railiner

crescent-zephyr said:


> this would be a huge improvement and is all pre-prepared food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starbucks®
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.starbucks.com


Nah....
This is what I'd call a real improvement....


----------



## jiml

flitcraft said:


> Trying to 'rebrand' service to fit millennials for LD trains is a fool's errand. LD trains inherently cannot depend on the business of people whose jobs provide, at best, two weeks annual vacation. We hardly ever took LD trains back when my husband and I were both working full-time jobs with limited vacation time--that time was simply too precious to spend several days of it on slow trains. The US is unique among industrialized countries in its norms of extremely limited paid vacation time, and businesses compound that by making it difficult to take even unpaid leave. So, depending on the trade of folks in their prime earning years is not a winning business model.
> 
> That leaves two classes of travelers for LD trains--one of which are people in rural areas not well-served, or in many cases served at all, by buses and planes. Those folks are the mainstay of LD coach travel, and with the continuing degradation of bus and plane service to fly-over country, I would presume that this market isn't going away in the post-pandemic future. The other class are those who ride the trains but have the luxury of having plenty of time for train travel--and yes, a lot of them are retirees. Somehow Amtrak seems to think that once they all die off, that group will disappear, but I would imagine that the next generation of retirees that replaces them would be a fertile market for LD train service--as long as the experience in the sleepers and dining cars is an attractive one. After all, the scenery and relaxation are not going away--and Amtrak has no way to degrade them!


Well said.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> this would be a huge improvement and is all pre-prepared food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Starbucks®
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.starbucks.com


Bread and nitrates? Not good for me. When on the BOS ALB sector on the Lake Shore they said I could order anything I wanted from the cafe menu. I got the panini and the salad which was not a chef's salad. After that first bread-y bite I just went for a mouthful of the inside stuff. A little lettuce, tomato, sliver of onion, and nitrate laden salami. 

Bread and nitrates or flex flop? It's a choke and croak happening. Enough said.


----------



## PVD

I usually go for the turkey sandwich


----------



## Nick Farr

20th Century Rider said:


> Hey... is that you Nick? You look good! If you were the conductor on the train I was riding I know it would be a great trip!



It is me! And sadly I was not the conductor...but I hope I run into the owner of the hat on a ride again soon!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Exvalley said:


> I could be mistaken, but it doesn’t seem to me that rail fans are getting any younger. If Amtrak wants to attract millennials they need to offer experiential travel, not just a method of getting from point A to point B. Millennials want the adventure itself. Better food, trivia contests, wine tastings and live music are what they need. Not TV dinners and a worn down room.



LIVE MUSIC! Please, not that! Give me peace


----------



## Sidney

On the EB in June they said I could order anything from the cafe car and a poster said the same on the LSL. Why can't this be standard on all the trains? It would certainly add variety to a 3 day trip. 

I just returned from an 8 day circle trip. Some trains allow you to eat in the dining car,others relegate you to your room. From LA to Chicago on the Sunset/Eagle we had to have meals in our rooms until SAS. After that we could eat in the diner. Why can't all these rules be uniform?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> Why can't all these rules be uniform?



The rules are uniform. The LSA’s are the problem.

I’ve been told it’s a “rule” that Amtrak employees, including the LSA are not allowed to sit in the booths of the viewliner II “diner lounge.” 

Naturally I’ve seen them all sitting at the booths like normal. They don’t care.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Manny T said:


> I think I understand the point about Millennials -- imagine a big city fine dining restaurant with tablecloths, dim lighting, good service, fine cuisine, extensive wine list, multi-course meals, and 2.5 hours to dine -- see a lot of millennials eating there? No, it's all guys with expense accounts or well-heeled old folks. Your typical millennial will grab a slice of pizza after the gym, get a Starbucks and continue surfing social media all night.
> 
> That's Amtrak's argument -- millennials don't want restaurant style dining, they want grab-and-go.
> 
> But Amtrak's argument is a fallacy -- the millennials aren't the ones riding Amtrak across the country. That market is composed of (relatively) well-heeled old folks, primarily, who are paying for their dining and by and large (if this forum is evidence) want their nice sit-down meals.
> 
> Amtrak's argument for flex-dining is fake, and it alienates the prime target audience for LD.
> Save money in the short run, and at the same time alienate the audience for long distance trains to justify their demise -- a "win-win" for Amtrak suits.



So many of Amtrak's most loyal customers are reflecting about the reality of these insane cutbacks. We are all saying the exact same thing... Amtrak just doesn't care about us. And this 'millennial' thing is just a lot of 'hoop-la' about absolutely nothing that means anything... just silly justification to please the bean counters upstairs. The bottom line is this... such a total disconnect with fare paying passengers will ultimately discourage ridership.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> It is me! And sadly I was not the conductor...but I hope I run into the owner of the hat on a ride again soon!


Go for it... wanna be on that train to have a fun ride!


----------



## Palmetto

crescent-zephyr said:


> The rules are uniform. The LSA’s are the problem.
> 
> I’ve been told it’s a “rule” that Amtrak employees, including the LSA are not allowed to sit in the booths of the viewliner II “diner lounge.”
> 
> Naturally I’ve seen them all sitting at the booths like normal. They don’t care.



And they are not held accountable. It's a management problem. Same goes for schools, large companies, etc. etc.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

crescent-zephyr said:


> The rules are uniform. The LSA’s are the problem.



In the NE corridor staff often take up an entire table in cafe cars. Conductors spread their paper work all over the table so that no-one can use the space, even when the cafe is packed. Once I asked the conductor to let me sit down and got a hostile reaction. 

A couple of years ago on the CV the dining car crew were huddled around a computer watching a game while people came in to eat. They stayed there for at least five minutes before bothering to do their jobs. 

There has never been much discipline in the way Amtrak operates. Your experience depends entirely on the mindset of the employees you are dealing with. You're a captive audience. Complaining is a waste of time.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Palmetto said:


> And they are not held accountable. It's a management problem. Same goes for schools, large companies, etc. etc.



The same goes for PUBLIC schools. Private schools have the authority to dismiss incompetent teachers - and they do. There is accountability; far less in public schools. There are problems with large companies too but they are also more in control than Amtrak. A rude or indifferent hotel employee of a major chain is less likely to be retained than a similar Amtrak employee. Of course large companies outsource a lot of jobs so they have near total control over their employees and can pay low salaries that wouldn't be possible here. Amtrak can't outsource onboard personnel. They haven't outsourced their 800 number to the Philippines or India yet. Is that because they legally cannot do so?


----------



## tricia

Ferroequinologist said:


> The same goes for PUBLIC schools. Private schools have the authority to dismiss incompetent teachers - and they do. There is accountability; far less in public schools. There are problems with large companies too but they are also more in control than Amtrak. A rude or indifferent hotel employee of a major chain is less likely to be retained than a similar Amtrak employee. Of course large companies outsource a lot of jobs so they have near total control over their employees and can pay low salaries that wouldn't be possible here. Amtrak can't outsource onboard personnel. They haven't outsourced their 800 number to the Philippines or India yet. Is that because they legally cannot do so?



Staff should be decently paid AND do their jobs properly. I don't think having Amtrak join the race to the bottom for absolute cheapest wages would be an improvement.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

tricia said:


> Staff should be decently paid AND do their jobs properly. I don't think having Amtrak join the race to the bottom for absolute cheapest wages would be an improvement.



I completely agree that staff should be decently paid. I am an opponent of outsourcing. I merely brought it up because Amtrak is obsessed with the bottom line. Are Amtrak employees poorly paid? The problem seems to be one of poor management and very likely the difficulty of removing unionized employees, same as in public schools. Unions are necessary but they have their downside when they retain bad employees. This has been a problem of police unions, for example, that protect some of the worst officers.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ferroequinologist said:


> Private schools have the authority to dismiss incompetent teachers - and they do.


Private schools also have the authority to dismiss competent teachers for "infractions" as irrelevant as differing spiritual views, familial status, or sexual orientation - and they do.



Ferroequinologist said:


> Unions are necessary but they have their downside when they retain bad employees. This has been a problem of police unions, for example, that protect some of the worst officers.


Police unions are in a different league from common carrier unions. It's up to Amtrak management to set minimum standards for service, ensure these standards are being met by the staff, and document failures in order to take appropriate action. The problem is that there is no obvious person to handle this task. In theory the LSA is responsible for maintaining service standards, but if the problem is with the LSA then it's up the conductor. The conductor is only aboard for a fraction of the LSA's total shift and his primary responsibility is the safe operation of the train. Burdening operations staff with maintaining customer service levels is a clumsy solution that results in widely varying standards and no paper trail for taking action except in extreme circumstances.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> The rules are uniform. The LSA’s are the problem.
> 
> I’ve been told it’s a “rule” that Amtrak employees, including the LSA are not allowed to sit in the booths of the viewliner II “diner lounge.”
> 
> Naturally I’ve seen them all sitting at the booths like normal. They don’t care.



Maybe a return to On-Board Service Chiefs would help.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

I really miss those full service Amtrak meals. Do you think the navy would take a 70 something year old dude who wants to really eat well??? Hey! Wait a minute... in this navy flick those millennials and younger are eating the same food Amtrak served in the good old days! I thought Amtrak said they only eat flex meals!


----------



## railiner

On the trains that had Chief's, the conductor's are not that "busy", most of the time. The main reason they had Chief's was that the train crew's, were still employed by the host railroads at that time, and more and more of them rotated from freight service, so they were not that cognizant of passenger crew supervision. Nor did they have that much stake in Amtrak's operation's. Of course there were notable exception's, and some did a superb job in fulfilling that part of their obligation. Hence, the On Board Chief's position was created, so that Amtrak could more effectively supervise their OBS employees. 

Once Amtrak took over direct employment of train crew's, and had more control of their monitoring of OBS employees, the Chief position was considered redundant in an ever tighter budget, coupled with train crew districts lengthening in many places, which further aided that monitoring.


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> I really miss those full service Amtrak meals. Do you think the navy would take a 70 something year old dude who wants to really eat well??? Hey! Wait a minute... in this navy flick those millennials and younger are eating the same food Amtrak served in the good old days! I thought Amtrak said they only eat flex meals!




Those sailors Thanksgiving dinner was better than my last one was. Breyer's Ice Cream! 

Thanks for the post!


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> the Chief position was considered redundant



As the elimination of that position occurred, Amtrak's on-board service started on its path of decline.


----------



## Larry H.

me_little_me said:


> In the past, when people asked me about rail travel (as well as in my Amtrak seminars) and the days to get there vs flying, I would tell them that flying is the punishment you have to do to enjoy yourself but overnight in a sleeper is as much a part of the vacation as is the destination and you will be telling people of the beautiful scenery, the opportunity to have a nice meal as the world goes by and an opportunity to sit down with strangers and leave as friends.
> 
> I can't say that any more. The first still exists. The second has been removed by Amtrak and may never return. The third has also been removed by Amtrak (not by the virus) as there is no reason to sit with strangers in the diner and end up talking for an hour about life, leaving as friends and then seeing them later and waving and saying hello although sitting with the next set of soon-to-be friends.
> 
> Amtrak is now just a slow but very expensive plane for those unable or unwilling to fly or drive.



The last long distance trip I took was probably five years ago by now. On the Southwest Chief returning from California we had a nice couple who sat with us in the diner. Which then was still somewhat of a restaurant affair. After we got our food it was obvious that the couple were on their first rail trip. The quality of food wasn't very good even then and the service so so at best. They told us they had taken the train due to the advertisements of fine meals and scenery, but after this first trip it would be the last due to the disappointing food served. Mind you that was before the awful box of gook we got on the CNO one evening a couple years ago. It wasn't fit go give a dog and has pretty much like others, killed my enthusiasm for rail travel. The big mistake here in my opinion is that Amtrak seems to think the diner is an out of place and out of date service they would just as soon do without. They need to take the diner's part of the trip as important as the engines that make it run. Remove them and the trip isn't going anywhere. At least that is how I feel about it and from what I read here so do most others.


----------



## fdaley

me_little_me said:


> In the past, when people asked me about rail travel (as well as in my Amtrak seminars) and the days to get there vs flying, I would tell them that flying is the punishment you have to do to enjoy yourself but overnight in a sleeper is as much a part of the vacation as is the destination and you will be telling people of the beautiful scenery, the opportunity to have a nice meal as the world goes by and an opportunity to sit down with strangers and leave as friends.
> 
> I can't say that any more. The first still exists. The second has been removed by Amtrak and may never return. The third has also been removed by Amtrak (not by the virus) as there is no reason to sit with strangers in the diner and end up talking for an hour about life, leaving as friends and then seeing them later and waving and saying hello although sitting with the next set of soon-to-be friends.
> 
> Amtrak is now just a slow but very expensive plane for those unable or unwilling to fly or drive.



Like you, I am known among my friends and acquaintances as the guy to call if someone is thinking about a train trip. Ever since contemporary/flexible dining made its debut on the Lake Shore and Capitol, I have been advising people to avoid the affected trains. Now I'm having to tell them to skip basically the entire long-distance network. I can't in good conscience recommend Amtrak's current standard of food service to anyone, even though some of the other attractions of rail travel -- the scenery, and the fun of traveling in a private room -- are still there. 

And I do think, as you say, that this reflects the mindset of Amtrak's current top management. They don't seem to have any conception of what makes long-distance train travel special or desirable. They see an overnight train as being comparable to a very long flight -- something on the order of flying to Australia. But of course, if one's trip from New York to Chicago or Washington to New Orleans involves a no-frills endurance run regardless of mode, one might as well fly and get it over with a lot faster -- not to mention for a lot less money.


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## Ferroequinologist

Larry H. said:


> The last long distance trip I took was probably five years ago by now. On the Southwest Chief returning from California we had a nice couple who sat with us in the diner. Which then was still somewhat of a restaurant affair. After we got our food it was obvious that the couple were on their first rail trip. The quality of food wasn't very good even then and the service so so at best. They told us they had taken the train due to the advertisements of fine meals and scenery, but after this first trip it would be the last due to the disappointing food served. Mind you that was before the awful box of gook we got on the CNO one evening a couple years ago. It wasn't fit go give a dog and has pretty much like others, killed my enthusiasm for rail travel. The big mistake here in my opinion is that Amtrak seems to think the diner is an out of place and out of date service they would just as soon do without. They need to take the diner's part of the trip as important as the engines that make it run. Remove them and the trip isn't going anywhere. At least that is how I feel about it and from what I read here so do most others.



I agree. Pre Flexible Dining the food was mediocre and the service was the same or worse. When they first implemented Flexible Dining they offered a cheese / cold meat platter that included a half (half- not the tiny airline size bottle) bottle of quality wine. The cold plate was excellent. I commented to friends that the quality of the ingredients was greater than that of the dining-car offerings. Since then the cheese plate has disappeared and what they offer is all unhealthy junk. Remember how Amtrak started out. Not long after they took over Santa Fe operations they downgraded the Super Chief. AT&SF gave them an ultimatum: maintain the same level of service (it affected Santa Fe's image) or drop the name "Super Chief". Amtrak dropped the "Super Chief" name. That ignoble tradition carries on.


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## 20th Century Rider

Yup... you mimic the thoughts and feelings of just about everyone on this forum. So many times I've thought about what a fine and delightful experience it would be... fine meals and a chance to meet and make friends in the dining car. Then I would look at the menu enhancements [prehistoric at this point] and buy my ticket. Like countless others I find the new 'flex flop flipped out puddle garbage' a disgusting affront on the traveler. Now I'm just wanting to burn up my points and be out of all this nonsense. I mean... the scenery's great! But you can see that riding a horse!


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## Ferroequinologist

Devil's Advocate said:


> Private schools also have the authority to dismiss competent teachers for "infractions" as irrelevant as differing spiritual views, familial status, or sexual orientation - and they do.
> 
> 
> Police unions are in a different league from common carrier unions. It's up to Amtrak management to set minimum standards for service, ensure these standards are being met by the staff, and document failures in order to take appropriate action. The problem is that there is no obvious person to handle this task. In theory the LSA is responsible for maintaining service standards, but if the problem is with the LSA then it's up the conductor. The conductor is only aboard for a fraction of the LSA's total shift and his primary responsibility is the safe operation of the train. Burdening operations staff with maintaining customer service levels is a clumsy solution that results in widely varying standards and no paper trail for taking action except in extreme circumstances.



You are correct that there is no on board end-to-end supervisor on board. One WITH AUTHORITY is badly needed. 
Your comments about the hiring/firing practices of private church schools is complex and controversial and probably not appropriate to discuss here. Non unionized employees can be dismissed for many reasons, sometimes unjust.


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## Larry H.

20th Century Rider said:


> Yup... you mimic the thoughts and feelings of just about everyone on this forum. So many times I've thought about what a fine and delightful experience it would be... fine meals and a chance to meet and make friends in the dining car. Then I would look at the menu enhancements [prehistoric at this point] and buy my ticket. Like countless others I find the new 'flex flop flipped out puddle garbage' a disgusting affront on the traveler. Now I'm just wanting to burn up my points and be out of all this nonsense. I mean... the scenery's great! But you can see that riding a horse!



Its interesting when you read the Dining by Rail book, the history and recipes from the railroads, you see that most of the big name trains were operated with fine dining in mind as a draw to the passengers and to the reputation of the company... Those days appear gone. We do need to remember that the issue is really one of congress deciding that a diner needed to make money in stead of being a necessary service like having bathrooms.


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## nferr

Larry H. said:


> Its interesting when you read the Dining by Rail book, the history and recipes from the railroads, you see that most of the big name trains were operated with fine dining in mind as a draw to the passengers and to the reputation of the company... Those days appear gone. We do need to remember that the issue is really one of congress deciding that a diner needed to make money in stead of being a necessary service like having bathrooms.



Come on. Who was riding the big name trains with fine dining. Retired middle class like today? Students? No. It was mostly well heeled and business executive types. And even then the private railroads lost big money on passenger service once the airlines came in. It's so silly to compare Amtrak to trains like the 20'th Century Limited when you look at the clientele of each. Amtrak is here to provide transportation to the masses. Now I agree there is a middle ground that Amtrak should be offering to it's Sleeper passengers, bu they have to get that food mandate changed by Congress.


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## jruff001

railiner said:


> On the trains that had Chief's, the conductor's are not that "busy", most of the time. The main reason they had Chief's was that the train crew's, were still employed by the host railroads at that time, and more and more of them rotated from freight service, so they were not that cognizant of passenger crew supervision. Nor did they have that much stake in Amtrak's operation's. Of course there were notable exception's, and some did a superb job in fulfilling that part of their obligation. Hence, the On Board Chief's position was created, so that Amtrak could more effectively supervise their OBS employees.


The OBS Chiefs lasted for many years after the operating crew became Amtrak employees.


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## jruff001

I know I'll be in the tiny minority here, but the dining car change doesn't change the sleeping car value proposition too much for me personally. On a long-distance trip what matters to me the most by far is a bed to sleep in at night, and privacy. The dining cars have been going downhill for so long I don't see this as a huge change. (Plus I was enjoying being seated with strangers less and less. Newer / younger Amtrak dining car passengers seem so completely surprised by and uncomfortable with the arrangement, it had been becoming just an awkward experience for the whole table most of the time.)

Don't get me wrong - overall I definitely don't like the change, and it is definitely a minus, but I'll still shell out the $ for the bed and privacy when I have the chance (and bring along as much of my own food & booze as I can carry!). It's still a unique way to travel and may not be around for much longer.


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## tricia

jruff001 said:


> I know I'll be in the tiny minority here, but the dining car change doesn't change the sleeping car value proposition too much for me personally. On a long-distance trip what matters to me the most by far is a bed to sleep in at night, and privacy. The dining cars have been going downhill for so long I don't see this as a huge change. (Plus I was enjoying being seated with strangers less and less. Newer / younger Amtrak dining car passengers seem so completely surprised by and uncomfortable with the arrangement, it had been becoming just an awkward experience for the whole table most of the time.)
> 
> Don't get me wrong - overall I definitely don't like the change, and it is definitely a minus, but I'll still shell out the $ for the bed and privacy when I have the chance (and bring along as much of my own food & booze as I can carry!). It's still a unique way to travel and may not be around for much longer.



My own priorities are pretty much in agreement with yours. I certainly agree that the dining cars "have been going downhill." I never really loved the food, but liked some meals well enough to consider them a plus. 

But the recent shift to "flex" food leaves me with very little on the menu I'm willing to eat. That rules out a multi-night trip for me, especially if it originates away from home--I can't really carry enough food with me for enough meals. And I kinda resent that I now need to either provide my own food or eat a bunch of crap that I know will leave me feeling ill. 

Although some on this forum will find this heretical  ... I'd be quite williing to give up the traditional dining "experience" if the pre-prepared food was better quality.


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## 20th Century Rider

jruff001 said:


> but I'll still shell out the $ for the bed and privacy when I have the chance (and bring along as much of my own food & booze as I can carry!). It's still a unique way to travel and may not be around for much longer.


I do agree sleeping while rolling over rail tracks is a unique and very enjoyable way to travel... and bringing along one's own food and drink makes it extra fun... the problem is with Amtrak's high sleeper cost which used to include food now does not... [unhealthy unsatisfying flex meals bring down the experience.] You now pay the same knowing it excludes that railroad french toast and hot coffee for breakfast, angus steak burgers for lunch, and steak for dinner... and the bonus of riding along and sharing the adventure with others seated at the table.

Counting my retirement pesos, I then think of where that same money could take me with a glorified car trip. While one must drive and navigate... includes complete freedom and you can be independent from those attendants and waiters; who are sometimes excellent and sometimes not. 

Meeting others on a car trip? Absolutely... small town acquaintances can be very meaningful... as along the road at rest stops, or while sitting outside your hotel room sipping bourbon. Food? You have your endless choices of restaurants; or pick up things at the grocery for a relaxing evening at that mom and pop strip motel.


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## Dakota 400

fdaley said:


> this reflects the mindset of Amtrak's current top management. They don't seem to have any conception of what makes long-distance train travel special or desirable.



I wonder what percentage, if any, of Amtrak's top management have ever taken a long distance train trip. Having experience with a product that one is trying to manage would improve decision making, I think.

Some parts of the cruise industry have experienced similar situations. Executives with no cruise experience are hired which has led to some poor decisions that negatively impacted their cruise guests.


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## jruff001

20th Century Rider said:


> I do agree sleeping while rolling over rail tracks is a unique and very enjoyable way to travel... and bringing along one's own food and drink makes it extra fun... the problem is with Amtrak's high sleeper cost which used to include food now does not... [unhealthy unsatisfying flex meals bring down the experience.] You now pay the same knowing it excludes that railroad french toast and hot coffee for breakfast, angus steak burgers for lunch, and steak for dinner... and the bonus of riding along and sharing the adventure with others seated at the table.


Understood about the pricing. Everyone has to re-evaluate whether it is worth it to them. I totally get & respect why some people would say "No thanks; I'd rather fly, drive or not go" now.

Oh and I don't like French Toast, don't eat meat, and there is still coffee available in the sleeping cars in the morning (and I am not a big fan of sharing a table anymore as I mentioned above).


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## jruff001

Dakota 400 said:


> I wonder what percentage, if any, of Amtrak's top management have ever taken a long distance train trip.


Conversely, I wonder what percentage of posters here have ever worked for Amtrak or had to be responsible for managing something within Congressionally-mandated budget restrictions. 

Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.

Editing to add: I don't expect a hotel to provide three meals / day for no extra charge.


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## John Santos

jruff001 said:


> [snip]
> Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.


That might be penny wise and pound foolish, if decent dining increases the revenue (by attracting more passengers) by much more than it costs. Which is very hard to judge, but seems to be the opinion of most people here. Certainly, the converse (cutting service and quality) doesn't save money because it reduces revenue more than it saves.


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## jruff001

John Santos said:


> That might be penny wise and pound foolish, if decent dining increases the revenue (by attracting more passengers) by much more than it costs. Which is very hard to judge, but seems to be the opinion of most people here.


Yes, I know that is the conventional wisdom here but I hold the opposite opinion (backed up with some first-hand knowledge of Amtrak's dining car operations).

The full-service dining cars are / were such complete financial basket cases that slightly higher sleeping car revenue was never going to offset. IMO.


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## crescent-zephyr

tricia said:


> Although some on this forum will find this heretical  ... I'd be quite williing to give up the traditional dining "experience" if the pre-prepared food was better quality.



I went into “contemporary dining” with an open mind. I actually liked how low key it was to just walk in and have a seat at an open table. Sit and relax after eating. I didn’t miss the “service” or the traditional dining car “experience” at all. What I missed was feeling like I ate a full meal.

So yes I agree.

I will continue to say Amtrak’s best idea was the original “cross country cafe” - an all day cafe style menu, and then specific meal time entrees that were prepares in the kitchen. Sad that it only lasted a few months before they gave up.


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## Larry H.

nferr said:


> Come on. Who was riding the big name trains with fine dining. Retired middle class like today? Students? No. It was mostly well heeled and business executive types. And even then the private railroads lost big money on passenger service once the airlines came in. It's so silly to compare Amtrak to trains like the 20'th Century Limited when you look at the clientele of each. Amtrak is here to provide transportation to the masses. Now I agree there is a middle ground that Amtrak should be offering to it's Sleeper passengers, bu they have to get that food mandate changed by Congress.


Your right about congress, there in lies the problem. However for the kind of charges you are paying for a sleeper, I don't blame people for thinking the food service should be at least decent. Amtrak ran diners since 71 I think it was? For years they provided a full service diner with real china, tablecloths and a reasonably decent quality of choices. That has all ended, but the fares continue to climb. If I wanted boxed lunches I could take the bus and save thousands.


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## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> I went into “contemporary dining” with an open mind. I actually liked how low key it was to just walk in and have a seat at an open table. Sit and relax after eating. I didn’t miss the “service” or the traditional dining car “experience” at all. What I missed was feeling like I ate a full meal.
> 
> So yes I agree.
> 
> I will continue to say Amtrak’s best idea was the original “cross country cafe” - an all day cafe style menu, and then specific meal time entrees that were prepares in the kitchen. Sad that it only lasted a few months before they gave up.


Yes, it was quite a bit nicer in the beginning... greater quantity and quality of food, served in a nice balsa wood box delivered in a reusable cloth pouch... included a larger serving of wine, and an in room amenity kit... reminiscent of earlier days. Then then chopped that twice into the absolute nothingness it is today. 

This discussion can be seen going in different directions with differing opinions... some say that we must accept the present service for what it is [that is true... take it or leave it and don't travel which will cut revenue even more] while others are saying that a better management focus will yield greater revenues for reintroducing the higher quality services from before.

Either way, the experience has been severely diminished. Many posts continue to bring up personnel service issues and equipment problems. I am just not happy with the devaluation of travel product value and quality. And I absolutely refuse to travel from coast to coast eating those noxious flex meals. Nor do I believe Amtrak's LD services can be sustained with what they are presently offering.


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## tgstubbs1

I think somebody told me a certain number of things are now prohibited on trains, deep fryers, etc. 

I don't know if they could get back to the type of dining they had in the heyday of rail travel if they wanted to (and had the funds). 

Of course, they have air fryers now. They do a pretty good job on some things,.


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## crescent-zephyr

Is someone asking for French fries and chicken tenders?


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## me_little_me

jruff001 said:


> (Plus I was enjoying being seated with strangers less and less. Newer / younger Amtrak dining car passengers seem so completely surprised by and uncomfortable with the arrangement, it had been becoming just an awkward experience for the whole table most of the time.)


That may be your experience but not mine. I found younger people were as willing to talk and were as friendly as we were. In fact, those that were new seemed to be very appreciative having someone at the table that "knew the ropes" about traveling on Amtrak. So many who have only traveled once or twice know nothing about what is included in the meals, "smoke stops", finding lower fares, differences between bedrooms and roomettes, existence of the cafe, and some new sleeper passengers on the Superliners, that there was a lounge car on the train!


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## flitcraft

The problem from my perspective is that Amtrak expects us to pay Waldorf Astoria prices for sleepers and gives us vending machine level food. Charge Bolt Bus prices and I'm okay with tiny 'flex' meals of simple carbs and sugar. It's what I'd expect. But Amtrak is painting itself into a corner--they can't survive on a clientele of nothing but hard-core railfans and Amish folk. Provide a decent level of amenities--food that wouldn't cause a riot if it were served at Denny's--and you have a lot more repeat business, given the inherent attractiveness of relaxing and watching the scenery go by. I think most people don't expect high-level restaurant food on a train, but, for the price paid, they are entitled to expect food that is at least moderately healthy and tasty.

Incidentally, if they really were catering to millenials, I guarantee that the obscene amount of unrecycled trash involved with flex dining is a real turn-off.


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## 20th Century Rider

flitcraft said:


> The problem from my perspective is that Amtrak expects us to pay Waldorf Astoria prices for sleepers and gives us vending machine level food. Charge Bolt Bus prices and I'm okay with tiny 'flex' meals of simple carbs and sugar. It's what I'd expect. But Amtrak is painting itself into a corner--they can't survive on a clientele of nothing but hard-core railfans and Amish folk. Provide a decent level of amenities--food that wouldn't cause a riot if it were served at Denny's--and you have a lot more repeat business, given the inherent attractiveness of relaxing and watching the scenery go by. I think most people don't expect high-level restaurant food on a train, but, for the price paid, they are entitled to expect food that is at least moderately healthy and tasty.
> 
> Incidentally, if they really were catering to millenials, I guarantee that the obscene amount of unrecycled trash involved with flex dining is a real turn-off.


You said that really well! On behalf of the many of us trying to get the massage to Amtrak, Thank You! And as everyone [except Amtrak] knows, the millennials are wanting good food and service too!!!


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## tgstubbs1

crescent-zephyr said:


> Is someone asking for French fries and chicken tenders?


Hey, you can cook all kinds of things, onion rings, hot dogs, you name it. There's this guy on TV that makes great food in a air fryer.


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## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> Hey, you can cook all kinds of things, onion rings, hot dogs, you name it. There's this guy on TV that makes great food in a air fryer.



You should see what this guy on tv can do on a George Foreman Grill! 

Other than grill-lounges which are long gone, I’m not sure if there were any fryers in dining car kitchens. And either way, ovens, grills, and steam tables are all still available for use. But that required extra staffing. 

While I think it would have been best to keep the chef and fire.. err “furlough” everyone else (keeping 1 lsa per train as was the original plan for cross country cafe) - that train has left the station and probably won’t return.


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## fdaley

flitcraft said:


> The problem from my perspective is that Amtrak expects us to pay Waldorf Astoria prices for sleepers and gives us vending machine level food.



This is exactly the problem. No one really expects a 20th Century Limited level of service anymore. But in its last incarnation, Amtrak's traditional dining offered something of about the same quality as Applebee's and other fast casual chains. Now, without any corresponding reduction in sleeper prices, they're offering low-grade TV dinners on bare tables and a breakfast service that makes Motel 6 look upscale. The clientele for sleeper travel includes a large number of occasional users who, as they discover how much the onboard experience has been downgraded, are apt not to return. A reduction in price would reflect the reality of the current quality of Amtrak's service, but I have little expectation that we'll see any adjustment in sleeper charges. And I personally wouldn't want to take a cross-country trip with the current food offerings no matter how much the price was cut. I might be willing to pay more for something that was significantly better.


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## 20th Century Rider

fdaley said:


> This is exactly the problem. No one really expects a 20th Century Limited level of service anymore. But in its last incarnation, Amtrak's traditional dining offered something of about the same quality as Applebee's and other fast casual chains. Now, without any corresponding reduction in sleeper prices, they're offering low-grade TV dinners on bare tables and a breakfast service that makes Motel 6 look upscale. The clientele for sleeper travel includes a large number of occasional users who, as they discover how much the onboard experience has been downgraded, are apt not to return. A reduction in price would reflect the reality of the current quality of Amtrak's service, but I have little expectation that we'll see any adjustment in sleeper charges. And I personally wouldn't want to take a cross-country trip with the current food offerings no matter how much the price was cut. I might be willing to pay more for something that was significantly better.



It is with deepest appreciation I thank you and others on the forum for voicing concerns with such eloquent and meaningful perceptions and wisdom. Amtrak service has become abysmal and is taking advantage of their most loyal patrons... or... making clear they just don't care about their best customers.

Am I missing something???


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## Sidney

Amtrak is still saying full service dining will return to the Western trains September 1. As much as I would like to believe that,and with no end to this pedemic,I don't think that will happen.

Sandwiches would be a welcome respite from the current offerings. Is there a logical reason they couldn't do this? It doesn't require a cook. How about cheesecake for dessert? That abysmal brownie doesn't cut it. Nothing seems to change and the sleeper prices remain high.

One of my legs next month is from Chicago to Utica. $320 is the roomette and rail fare price. Subtracting the rail fare of $76,that is quite high for a 9:30PM departure with no dinner and those sorry breakfast items. I opted for business class. Then again,as long as people are willing to pay,Amtrak will charge it.


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## Larry H.

To those who think the diner is no longer a necessity, I would ask, why then did every railroad carry a diner if its so unnecessary. I used to ride to Chicago from St.Louis quite often. The GM&O managed to carry a full service diner and quite well prepared food, and that was for a six hour or less trip. Santa fe as has been noted refused to down grade their amenities for the sake of saving some money. I guess its just a whole world of changes that have made the idea of long distance rail almost a forgotten mode of travel. And yet when you depart a city like Chicago there can easily be hundreds of people boarding, so its mostly the fact that the rail systems in our nation haven't begun to hold a candle to what other nations have accomplished, and most of them offer some consist with very elegant dining still.


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## fdaley

jruff001 said:


> Yes, I know that is the conventional wisdom here but I hold the opposite opinion (backed up with some first-hand knowledge of Amtrak's dining car operations).
> 
> The full-service dining cars are / were such complete financial basket cases that slightly higher sleeping car revenue was never going to offset. IMO.



I would be interested in knowing more specifics of your perspective on the economics of the traditional dining cars vs. "flexible" dining, if you're able to provide more detail. From my own back-of-the-envelope calculation when Amtrak announced the switch from traditional to "contemporary" dining on the Lake Shore and Capitol, it appeared the management expected to save about $2,000 per departure. That sounds like a lot, but when you consider what they charge for rooms, especially at the higher bucket prices, that savings might be entirely offset if, say, a couple of bedrooms and a couple of roomettes on a given train don't sell because of the change.


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## Exvalley

fdaley said:


> From my own back-of-the-envelope calculation when Amtrak announced the switch from traditional to "contemporary" dining on the Lake Shore and Capitol, it appeared the management expected to save about $2,000 per departure.


That’s $45 per bedroom/roomette if the sleepers are full on the LSL. It’s also a savings of $1.46 million per year. Not chump change.


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## jruff001

fdaley said:


> I would be interested in knowing more specifics of your perspective on the economics of the traditional dining cars vs. "flexible" dining, if you're able to provide more detail.


Basically, traditional dining cars are an absolute money pit due to labor costs. Of course there are other factors as well, but the labor costs are what makes the issues insurmountable, IMO. Including benefits (a gold-plated health care plan and essentially a defined-benefit pension in the form of Railroad Retirement), the SAs are probably about the highest-compensated waiters in the world. And for operational reasons, especially during delays, the crews spend lots of time on duty being compensated when the diners aren't actually open and serving customers.

Huge built-in inefficiencies and costs that regular restaurants don't have to deal with.


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## joelkfla

Larry H. said:


> And yet when you depart a city like Chicago there can easily be hundreds of people boarding, so its mostly the fact that the rail systems in our nation haven't begun to hold a candle to what other nations have accomplished, and most of them offer some consist with very elegant dining still.


I fully support full-service dining on Amtrak, but ...

People keep throwing out trains in other parts of the world as shining examples. I've never traveled to Europe, but I've watched quite a few trip reports on YouTube. With the exception of a couple of marquee trains, most of the overnight trains offer either a cafe car with limited seating (sometimes just barstools at a counter), or a light breakfast delivered in the sleeping accommodations.

Europeans who review Amtrak travel prior to the Flex downgrade seem to be rather surprised and pleased with our former full diner service.


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## Skyline

Many of the European trains are 12 hours or less. They don't have and shouldn't have the kind of dining options that a 48-hour route in the US (or overseas) would have.


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## joelkfla

Skyline said:


> Many of the European trains are 12 hours or less. They don't have and shouldn't have the kind of dining options that a 48-hour route in the US (or overseas) would have.


Yes, the ones I've seen are generally overnighters, departing around 6-9 a.m. and arriving the next morning.


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## Manny T

My last European overnight was Paris to Venice -- with dinner in the restaurant car. There was one sitting -- we all came in, sat down, were served an appetizer, then the chef came around with a pot and served everyone the same dinner (I remember veal stew) and sides, later he came around for seconds, and there was dessert. It was great. This obviously wouldn't work in the US -- no choices! no substitutions! take it or leave it.

These days the Paris-Venice night train is different (the Thello) but they still have a restaurant. Here is the menu:


https://www.thello.com/wp-content/uploads/menu-Bistrot-Completo-uk.pdf


I think I'll have the spelt salad, followed by duck confit and a cheese plate.
Note at the bottom of page 2, there is an asterisk and a footnote that tells exactly which items are from frozen food, so I guess the other items are fresh or prepared on board.


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## toddinde

nferr said:


> Come on. Who was riding the big name trains with fine dining. Retired middle class like today? Students? No. It was mostly well heeled and business executive types. And even then the private railroads lost big money on passenger service once the airlines came in. It's so silly to compare Amtrak to trains like the 20'th Century Limited when you look at the clientele of each. Amtrak is here to provide transportation to the masses. Now I agree there is a middle ground that Amtrak should be offering to it's Sleeper passengers, bu they have to get that food mandate changed by Congress.


You raise a good point. What killed the Pullman business was the end of business travel by rail. Those sumptuous dining car meals were paid for on expense accounts or government/military travel. Without that, something simpler is in order.


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## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Amtrak is still saying full service dining will return to the Western trains September 1. As much as I would like to believe that,and with no end to this pedemic,I don't think that will happen.
> 
> Sandwiches would be a welcome respite from the current offerings. Is there a logical reason they couldn't do this? It doesn't require a cook. How about cheesecake for dessert? That abysmal brownie doesn't cut it. Nothing seems to change and the sleeper prices remain high.
> 
> One of my legs next month is from Chicago to Utica. $320 is the roomette and rail fare price. Subtracting the rail fare of $76,that is quite high for a 9:30PM departure with no dinner and those sorry breakfast items. I opted for business class. Then again,as long as people are willing to pay,Amtrak will charge it.


You're very right for calling the sleeping accommodations overpriced... the flex flop situation can only be described at this point... abusive. Tiring, bland, tiny portions, full of sodium and fat, and carcinogens from the plastic containers when heated [well documented]... and that breakfast sandwich? I saved it to eat later in the morning... by then it was congealed into a waxy greasy mess. My ticket to travel next January from coast to coast in a sleeper will probably be cancelled before the August 31st deadline... even though it's on points... I just don't want to go!


----------



## toddinde

Manny T said:


> My last European overnight was Paris to Venice -- with dinner in the restaurant car. There was one sitting -- we all came in, sat down, were served an appetizer, then the chef came around with a pot and served everyone the same dinner (I remember veal stew) and sides, later he came around for seconds, and there was dessert. It was great. This obviously wouldn't work in the US -- no choices! no substitutions! take it or leave it.
> 
> These days the Paris-Venice night train is different (the Thello) but they still have a restaurant. Here is the menu:
> 
> 
> https://www.thello.com/wp-content/uploads/menu-Bistrot-Completo-uk.pdf
> 
> 
> I think I'll have the spelt salad, followed by duck confit and a cheese plate.
> Note at the bottom of page 2, there is an asterisk and a footnote that tells exactly which items are from frozen food, so I guess the other items are fresh or prepared on board.


We could certainly do something like this in the US.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It may be helpful to note the different types of services we are talking about here - 

"Full Traditional Dining" would be Amtrak Dining pre-"Simplified Dining Service" and would be similar to VIA Rail Canadian Dining - LSA, at least 2 servers and at least 2 in the kitchen. This allows most food to be prepared on board, "real" plates, glassware, table cloths, etc. 

"Simplified Dining Service" was when Amtrak dropped the staffing significantly in 2006. Plastic plates and glasses, 1 employee in the kitchen. Originally all of the food was pre-made but then it was decided that 1 chef could still cook a few items on board. Scrambled eggs, Steak, etc. (Before SDS you could order eggs any way you like, because there were 2 cooks in the kitchen... when SDS first began, it was a reheated "Bob Evans" scramble egg bowl. The compromise was scrambled eggs only. 

"Cross Country Cafe" - was when Amtrak tried to create 1 food service car that could serve as both diner and lounge. There would be 1 LSA who was basically the cafe attendant. There was an "all day menu" similar to the cafe menu and then during meal times passengers could order entrees that came from the kitchen downstairs. This lasted a few months (?) on the City of New Orleans and Texas Eagle until the cars reverted to Traditional Dining Car use. 

There were several mix-ups after 2006. Some trains like the Empire Builder, Capitol, and Coast Starlight got back the china and glassware. For a short time the Capitol operated a version of the Cross Country Cafe as the lone food service car with 1 LSA, 2 servers and a chef. This was almost like the original CCC service only the menus were completely separate. Traditional Cafe menu at the counter, traditional dining car menu in the dining room. 

"Contemporary Dining" - is now... when Amtrak has a small menu of pre-prepared TV Dinner style menu items that are heated up by 1 LSA in the "Sleeper Lounge" that is separate from the LSA in the Cafe. 

For the same staffing costs we could have something like the Cross Country Cafe with 1 LSA and 1 Chef.


----------



## Rasputin

toddinde said:


> You raise a good point. What killed the Pullman business was the end of business travel by rail. Those sumptuous dining car meals were paid for on expense accounts or government/military travel. Without that, something simpler is in order.


I think that is exaggerated except for some single night trains such as the Broadway and 20th Century which did cater to business travel. Otherwise, there were a lot of middle class and ordinary folk traveling by long distance trains before the airplane era and it was certainly not all business travel. Some by sleeper and many more by coach. Much business was done rather tediously through the U.S. Mail and not by business travel . If you look at the railroad menus from the 1950s, $2.50 as I recall would be a high price for a good dining car meal on a named train. That would be about $24.00 today. Hardly an extravagant expense. 

I rode on a number of long distance trains in the late 1960s and the 1970s, usually by coach. I normally ate full meals in the dining car and there was never a question about whether coach passengers were welcome in the dining car. We were always welcome. in earlier years there were some trains which had separate dining cars for sleeping car passengers and coach passengers but I think they were gone by the late 1960s.


----------



## me_little_me

Exvalley said:


> That’s $45 per bedroom/roomette if the sleepers are full on the LSL. It’s also a savings of $1.46 million per year. Not chump change.


Meaningless to a company taking in hundreds to a thousand dollars per room. I still remember when my company in the late 80s cut out the fresh fruit and donuts for all employees. That was probably 50 cents to a dollar per employee per day and at 210 work days, amounted to the vast sum of up to $10 MILLION per year.

Their profits were in the multi-billions. Their salaries were very high - $40K average? - (a major computer manufacturer in the prime of their existence) but $10M sounded like so much to the bean counters. Had the company had twice that number of employees and twice the profit it would sound twice as bad but the cost would still be only $200 per person per year.

IT IS CHUMP CHANGE! Not to you or I but we don't take in that kind of money. And that number is based on management claims, not documented and verified public facts - or the future loss of business - from a management team wanting to get rid of LD.

And if you don't believe they want to get rid of LD, read the comment (in Trains Mag Sep 2020 P7) by Chris Koos, nominated in May by President Trump to the Amtrak Board of Directors: "I do know the direction going for Amtrak right now - including the Amtrak board - is to severely curtail or eliminate the long-distance routes."


----------



## me_little_me

jruff001 said:


> Basically, traditional dining cars are an absolute money pit due to labor costs. Of course there are other factors as well, but the labor costs are what makes the issues insurmountable, IMO. Including benefits (a gold-plated health care plan and essentially a defined-benefit pension in the form of Railroad Retirement), the SAs are probably about the highest-compensated waiters in the world. And for operational reasons, especially during delays, the crews spend lots of time on duty being compensated when the diners aren't actually open and serving customers.
> 
> Huge built-in inefficiencies and costs that regular restaurants don't have to deal with.


That doesn't explain the poor quality and variety of the food. That is based PRIMARILY of not SOLELY on food costs which have little if anything to do with employee costs. That same employee that's left can provide more variety and better quality if they were handed that better food.


----------



## PVD

So the fact that workers receive quality medical and retirement with dignity is a problem? Maybe the real problem is that people actually think workers are entitled to anything less.


----------



## Nick Farr

jruff001 said:


> I know I'll be in the tiny minority here, but the dining car change doesn't change the sleeping car value proposition too much for me personally. On a long-distance trip what matters to me the most by far is a bed to sleep in at night, and privacy. The dining cars have been going downhill for so long I don't see this as a huge change. (Plus I was enjoying being seated with strangers less and less. Newer / younger Amtrak dining car passengers seem so completely surprised by and uncomfortable with the arrangement, it had been becoming just an awkward experience for the whole table most of the time.)



I totally agree with this. Getting seated with non-English speaking passengers is just plain awkward.


----------



## jruff001

me_little_me said:


> That doesn't explain the poor quality and variety of the food.


?

I wasn't responding to a question about food quality and variety.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Somehow Deutsche Bahn is able to serve this with only one person in the bistro car. Looks far better than any Flex Dining meal on Amtrak.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

jruff001 said:


> Conversely, I wonder what percentage of posters here have ever worked for Amtrak or had to be responsible for managing something within Congressionally-mandated budget restrictions.
> 
> Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.
> 
> Editing to add: I don't expect a hotel to provide three meals / day for no extra charge.



Why do you agree?


----------



## Nick Farr

chrsjrcj said:


> Somehow Deutsche Bahn is able to serve this with only one person in the bistro car. Looks far better than any Flex Dining meal on Amtrak.



Amtrak could absolutely make this happen. If you saw the *seasonal menus* of the Deutsche Bahn, it would make you cry.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

flitcraft said:


> The problem from my perspective is that Amtrak expects us to pay Waldorf Astoria prices for sleepers and gives us vending machine level food. Charge Bolt Bus prices and I'm okay with tiny 'flex' meals of simple carbs and sugar. It's what I'd expect. But Amtrak is painting itself into a corner--they can't survive on a clientele of nothing but hard-core railfans and Amish folk. Provide a decent level of amenities--food that wouldn't cause a riot if it were served at Denny's--and you have a lot more repeat business, given the inherent attractiveness of relaxing and watching the scenery go by. I think most people don't expect high-level restaurant food on a train, but, for the price paid, they are entitled to expect food that is at least moderately healthy and tasty.
> 
> Incidentally, if they really were catering to millenials, I guarantee that the obscene amount of unrecycled trash involved with flex dining is a real turn-off.



What they serve is extremely unhealthy and, ironically, being served by what is really a nationalized rail passenger service, hence the US government is promoting high sodium, high sugar, diabetes and high blood pressure inducing food + incredible paper and plastic waste at a time of increased health and environmental consciousness. Where is Michelle Obama and her healthy food campaign when we need her?


----------



## jruff001

Ferroequinologist said:


> Why do you agree?


It is generally not a good use of taxpayer money to fund or subsidize what is basically a leisure activity of the relatively wealthy.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> You said that really well! On behalf of the many of us trying to get the massage to Amtrak, Thank You! And as everyone [except Amtrak] knows, the millennials are wanting good food and service too!!!



Someone posted that millennials only want fast food but I live in a neighborhood with a lot of professional millennials and I see them spending (pre Covid of course) a LOT of money in high end restaurants. There's a highly rated restaurant near me that (before Covid) always had a LINE of people waiting for the place to open. You need a couple of months or more to get a reservation. A meal costs $200 or more for two + the cost of wine, tax and tip. Most of the people I see waiting to get in are young. Seems to me that there is a definite market for quality food. I also see loads of millennials in Whole Foods paying a lot for quality organic food, fresh fish etc so I have no idea why people think millennials are only into fast food. If anything I think a lot would enjoy LD travel in sleeping cars if they had good food and service. They don't even KNOW that LD trains exist!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> Seems to me that there is a definite market for quality food. I also see loads of millennials in Whole Foods paying a lot for quality organic food, fresh fish etc so I have no idea why people think millennials are only into fast food. If anything I think a lot would enjoy LD travel in sleeping cars if they had good food and service. They don't even KNOW that LD trains exist!


So what does that say for Amtrak execs who base food service upon millennials ???


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> It is generally not a good use of taxpayer money to fund or subsidize what is basically a leisure activity of the relatively wealthy.



Just to clarify... what’s the leisure activity?

Travel?
Dining Cars? 
Sleeping cars? 
Long distance trains?


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> So what does that say for Amtrak execs who base food service upon millennials ???



It's just an excuse for downgrading food service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> So what does that say for Amtrak execs who base food service upon millennials ???



To be fair.. the original contemporary meals at least resembled something “contemporary” I never got to try them, but the salad boxes sound much better than the TV dinners.


----------



## Willbridge

flitcraft said:


> Trying to 'rebrand' service to fit millennials for LD trains is a fool's errand. LD trains inherently cannot depend on the business of people whose jobs provide, at best, two weeks annual vacation. We hardly ever took LD trains back when my husband and I were both working full-time jobs with limited vacation time--that time was simply too precious to spend several days of it on slow trains. The US is unique among industrialized countries in its norms of extremely limited paid vacation time, and businesses compound that by making it difficult to take even unpaid leave. So, depending on the trade of folks in their prime earning years is not a winning business model.
> 
> That leaves two classes of travelers for LD trains--one of which are people in rural areas not well-served, or in many cases served at all, by buses and planes. Those folks are the mainstay of LD coach travel, and with the continuing degradation of bus and plane service to fly-over country, I would presume that this market isn't going away in the post-pandemic future. The other class are those who ride the trains but have the luxury of having plenty of time for train travel--and yes, a lot of them are retirees. Somehow Amtrak seems to think that once they all die off, that group will disappear, but I would imagine that the next generation of retirees that replaces them would be a fertile market for LD train service--as long as the experience in the sleepers and dining cars is an attractive one. After all, the scenery and relaxation are not going away--and Amtrak has no way to degrade them!


Good observation regarding retirees. In 1971 when Amtrak started up the critics explained that soon the old folks who remembered fine service would die off and then so would the demand for long-distance train travel. Instead, every year there were new retirees! And they wanted to go places.


----------



## Willbridge

nferr said:


> Come on. Who was riding the big name trains with fine dining. Retired middle class like today? Students? No. It was mostly well heeled and business executive types. And even then the private railroads lost big money on passenger service once the airlines came in. It's so silly to compare Amtrak to trains like the 20'th Century Limited when you look at the clientele of each. Amtrak is here to provide transportation to the masses. Now I agree there is a middle ground that Amtrak should be offering to it's Sleeper passengers, but they have to get that food mandate changed by Congress.



Yes, the railroads marketed their passenger service to business people as a way of attracting freight business. The implication was that the company as a whole would be good to deal with. Here's a sample:


----------



## west point

Dinning service may return if Covid-19 is ever solved. Until then forget it !


----------



## Willbridge

Rasputin said:


> I think that is exaggerated except for some single night trains such as the Broadway and 20th Century which did cater to business travel. Otherwise, there were a lot of middle class and ordinary folk traveling by long distance trains before the airplane era and it was certainly not all business travel. Some by sleeper and many more by coach. Much business was done rather tediously through the U.S. Mail and not by business travel . If you look at the railroad menus from the 1950s, $2.50 as I recall would be a high price for a good dining car meal on a named train. That would be about $24.00 today. Hardly an extravagant expense.
> 
> I rode on a number of long distance trains in the late 1960s and the 1970s, usually by coach. I normally ate full meals in the dining car and there was never a question about whether coach passengers were welcome in the dining car. We were always welcome. in earlier years there were some trains which had separate dining cars for sleeping car passengers and coach passengers but I think they were gone by the late 1960s.


In the summer and around winter holidays there were trains that split into two sections, by class, even in the 1960's. HOWEVER, full meals were offered in the Coach section diner or cafe cars, comparable to today's fast-casual restaurant dining. I posted a couple of samples previously.


----------



## Willbridge

Larry H. said:


> To those who think the diner is no longer a necessity, I would ask, why then did every railroad carry a diner if its so unnecessary. I used to ride to Chicago from St. Louis quite often. The GM&O managed to carry a full service diner and quite well prepared food, and that was for a six hour or less trip. Santa Fe as has been noted refused to down grade their amenities for the sake of saving some money. I guess its just a whole world of changes that have made the idea of long distance rail almost a forgotten mode of travel. And yet when you depart a city like Chicago there can easily be hundreds of people boarding, so its mostly the fact that the rail systems in our nation haven't begun to hold a candle to what other nations have accomplished, and most of them offer some consist with very elegant dining still.



The attached GM&O menu card is from the _Abraham Lincoln _in 1967. I haven't looked up a cost of living adjustment, but a local transit cash fare in many mid-sized cities today is about 7 times the price in 1967 as a comparison.


----------



## toddinde

Rasputin said:


> I think that is exaggerated except for some single night trains such as the Broadway and 20th Century which did cater to business travel. Otherwise, there were a lot of middle class and ordinary folk traveling by long distance trains before the airplane era and it was certainly not all business travel. Some by sleeper and many more by coach. Much business was done rather tediously through the U.S. Mail and not by business travel . If you look at the railroad menus from the 1950s, $2.50 as I recall would be a high price for a good dining car meal on a named train. That would be about $24.00 today. Hardly an extravagant expense.
> 
> I rode on a number of long distance trains in the late 1960s and the 1970s, usually by coach. I normally ate full meals in the dining car and there was never a question about whether coach passengers were welcome in the dining car. We were always welcome. in earlier years there were some trains which had separate dining cars for sleeping car passengers and coach passengers but I think they were gone by the late 1960s.


The Super Chief/El Capitan had separate diners well into the Amtrak era. It’s an acknowledged fact that the loss of expense account travel killed Pullman. Of course there was a lot of other business. That was SP’s argument in moving away from diners to hamburger grill cars. There are always a lot of reasons people travel. The railroads loss of the business traveler had a profound impact.


----------



## Larry H.

Willbridge said:


> Good observation regarding retirees. In 1971 when Amtrak started up the critics explained that soon the old folks who remembered fine service would die off and then so would the demand for long-distance train travel. Instead, every year there were new retirees! And they wanted to go places.



If the powers that be hadn't slashed the routes by two thirds after they took over the passenger levels would be many times what they say Long Distance would draw to day.. A few routes are just not a way to determine what the demand for rail service is. If the connections aren't there you can't go.


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Just to clarify... what’s the leisure activity?
> 
> Travel?
> Dining Cars?
> Sleeping cars?
> Long distance trains?


First Class travel.


----------



## jiml

Willbridge said:


> Instead, every year there were new retirees! And they wanted to go places.


Funny how that works, and it's been a problem for governments ever since.


----------



## tonys96

jruff001 said:


> Conversely, I wonder what percentage of posters here have ever worked for Amtrak or had to be responsible for managing something within Congressionally-mandated budget restrictions.
> 
> Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.
> 
> Editing to add: I don't expect a hotel to provide three meals / day for no extra charge.



The dining is simply not free for sleeping car pax. Please get your facts right.


----------



## jruff001

tonys96 said:


> The dining is simply not free for sleeping car pax. Please get your facts right.


Where did I say dining is free for sleeping car passengers?


----------



## tonys96

jruff001 said:


> It is generally not a good use of taxpayer money to fund or subsidize what is basically a leisure activity of the relatively wealthy.


Like making business "three martini lunch" 100% deductible?


----------



## tonys96

jruff001 said:


> Where did I say dining is free for sleeping car passengers?




Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.


And, exactly what is "first class travel" on Amtrak?


----------



## Rasputin

toddinde said:


> The Super Chief/El Capitan had separate diners well into the Amtrak era. It’s an acknowledged fact that the loss of expense account travel killed Pullman. Of course there was a lot of other business. That was SP’s argument in moving away from diners to hamburger grill cars. There are always a lot of reasons people travel. The railroads loss of the business traveler had a profound impact.


I want to apologize for my previous post because it was somewhat off base. The topic which was raised was the decline of Pullman business and my response was directed at the situation of long distance train service not just Pullman business. On thinking of this further I agree that especially the one-night overnight trains did suffer quite a loss as business travel was lost to airlines, the private automobile and even to buses. I think the longer transcontinental trains fared a bit better in this change.


----------



## jruff001

tonys96 said:


> Like making business "three martini lunch" 100% deductible?


A little different (tax deduction vs. direct cash subsidy), but yes, "three martini lunches" should not be deductible.


----------



## jruff001

tonys96 said:


> And, exactly what is "first class travel" on Amtrak?


If you have a point to make please make it, or if you disagree with me please feel free to explain.

I am open to changing my mind but so far you are being less than persuasive.


----------



## Nick Farr

We do realize Amtrak is trying to kill off LD trains, right? If Amtrak ever gets privatized, they would have been eliminated already.

I don't think they have the flexibility to change staffing levels either. I actually don't see why each sleeper car requires it's own SCA. You could cut losses and retain food service by cross training service staff.

I don't think demand will fall off a cliff just because of the dining options. Like the postal service, Amtrak doesn't have the flexibility to make adjustments to the service that might make it profitable.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Willbridge said:


> The attached GM&O menu card is from the _Abraham Lincoln _in 1967. I haven't looked up a cost of living adjustment, but a local transit cash fare in many mid-sized cities today is about 7 times the price in 1967 as a comparison.
> 
> View attachment 18347
> 
> 
> View attachment 18348


That was when zipping along on those comfortable smooth gliding trains was fun & the food delicious!!!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

tonys96 said:


> Frankly I agree with the concept that no taxpayer money should go towards funding a nice dining car experience for sleeping car passengers.
> 
> 
> And, exactly what is "first class travel" on Amtrak?


There is no actual first class travel on Amtrak today! What exists is a dilapidated version of what it once was.


----------



## tonys96

As we all know, this business of claiming the " gummint" is subsidizing dining cars is a strawman. The "gummint" sibsudizes ALL travel in America, in one way or another, from our great interstate Hiway system to the TSA and air traffic control system, to airport grants, to all commuter rail.
Even Amtrak coach is subsidized.
Saying diners are "first class" and for the recreation if the wealthy is a strawman.


----------



## railiner

Willbridge said:


> In the summer and around winter holidays there were trains that split into two sections, by class, even in the 1960's. HOWEVER, full meals were offered in the Coach section diner or cafe cars,


Examples of this were the combined Super Chief/El Capitan, or the Panama Limited/Magnolia Star. One other train that I rode that had a coach and a Pullman diner was SCL's seasonal Florida Special...its diner was unique AFAIK, in having real candlelight dinner's...its ads touted: "The Champagne Train" rides again!"


----------



## railiner

tonys96 said:


> As we all know, this business of claiming the " gummint" is subsidizing dining cars is a strawman. The "gummint" sibsudizes ALL travel in America, in one way or another, from our great interstate Hiway system to the TSA and air traffic control system, to airport grants, to all commuter rail.
> Even Amtrak coach is subsidized.
> Saying diners are "first class" and for the recreation if the wealthy is a strawman.


I think the difference is, is that if the government funds the infrastructure costs as it partially does for other modes, that is acceptable and 'fair'; but if it subsidizes the operating costs, which it doesn't do for other modes, with a few 'essential services' exception's, then that is perhaps not. Opinion's will differ of course, by whether one uses the long distance trains, or not....
You also have to keep in mind, the other modes of travel all pay taxes of one kind or another...does Amtrak?


----------



## Skyline

Manny T said:


> My last European overnight was Paris to Venice -- with dinner in the restaurant car. There was one sitting -- we all came in, sat down, were served an appetizer, then the chef came around with a pot and served everyone the same dinner (I remember veal stew) and sides, later he came around for seconds, and there was dessert. It was great. This obviously wouldn't work in the US -- no choices! no substitutions! take it or leave it.
> 
> These days the Paris-Venice night train is different (the Thello) but they still have a restaurant. Here is the menu:
> 
> 
> https://www.thello.com/wp-content/uploads/menu-Bistrot-Completo-uk.pdf
> 
> 
> I think I'll have the spelt salad, followed by duck confit and a cheese plate.
> Note at the bottom of page 2, there is an asterisk and a footnote that tells exactly which items are from frozen food, so I guess the other items are fresh or prepared on board.



Even considering the USD doesn't match the Euro (today 100 USD to EUR = 88.5357 Euros), those prices seem quite reasonable. I think Amtrak could do something like this and if well executed would be a winner!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Regarding all the styles of dining on European trains... which I've had the pleasure of experiencing many times... They are efficient... they know how to pre pack food items, then heat up and serve... with exceptional quality. The European food style also includes the main course to be served to the group from a large platter with the expertise of a skilled waiter. The rolls are always piping hot and fresh. 

So what is it that's so impressive? Efficiency, quality, skill, and expertise. 

That would be doable for Amtrak with the right attitude!


----------



## Exvalley

tonys96 said:


> The "gummint" sibsudizes ALL travel in America, in one way or another, from our great interstate Hiway system to the TSA and air traffic control system, to airport grants, to all commuter rail.


Which means that the government gets to pick the winners and losers. The hand that giveth can also taketh.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> First Class travel.



What’s your definition of first class travel?


----------



## JoeBas

Dakota 400 said:


> Maybe a return to On-Board Service Chiefs would help.



Who needs an on-board service chief when your apparent goal is to eliminate on-board service?


----------



## fdaley

Exvalley said:


> That’s $45 per bedroom/roomette if the sleepers are full on the LSL. It’s also a savings of $1.46 million per year. Not chump change.



Actually, what Amtrak claimed in news stories at the time was that it would save $3 million a year by killing the traditional dining on the Lake Shore and Capitol. That works out to a bit more than $2,000 per departure. To be sure, $3 million is an incredible sum relative to my annual household budget, but it looks a lot smaller in the context of a company that has several billion a year in revenues.

My bigger point here is that, when you break it down to $2,000 per departure, it's easy to see how much of that "savings" could be wiped out if a fair number of sleeper customers feel as I do and decide they're rather stay home (or fly/drive) than be stuck on a train for 20 hours without a decent meal. Suppose on any given departure of the Lake Shore, two $750 bedrooms and two $350 roomettes don't sell because of the change. Suddenly Amtrak is losing more revenue than it "saved" by downgrading the food service. Plus everyone in the remaining rooms gets the lousy food, and some of them, after experiencing it for the first time, don't choose the train next time. It's the beginning of a downward spiral.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Also... coach passengers lose access to the dining car as well. The Lake Shore supposedly had a higher than normal number of coach passengers eating in the diner.

While I generally ride in a sleeper, I still use the dining car when traveling in coach when it is available.


----------



## ehbowen

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also... coach passengers lose access to the dining car as well. The Lake Shore supposedly had a higher than normal number of coach passengers eating in the diner.
> 
> While I generally ride in a sleeper, I still use the dining car when traveling in coach when it is available.


Agreed. Houston to New Orleans, a day trip, is one that I'm willing to do in coach but, when I do, I'll usually have two meals in the dining car!

Edit To Add: And I'm usually not the only one...


----------



## fdaley

crescent-zephyr said:


> Also... coach passengers lose access to the dining car as well. The Lake Shore supposedly had a higher than normal number of coach passengers eating in the diner.
> 
> While I generally ride in a sleeper, I still use the dining car when traveling in coach when it is available.



That's interesting. I personally have eaten many diner meals on the Lake Shore over the years as a coach passenger traveling between New York State points. The last time I saw the train before the pandemic hit, in February, the eastbound arrived into Albany with the smallest number of coaches I have ever seen: one for Boston, two for New York. In past winters, I had never seen fewer than two for Boston and three for New York. So it does raise the question of whether the current food options are chasing away coach passengers as well. 

In the past, if I had to travel from Albany to Rochester or Buffalo, the fact that I could get dinner en route was a reason to take the Lake Shore. Now I would actually have better food options on one of the corridor trains.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> Regarding all the styles of dining on European trains... which I've had the pleasure of experiencing many times... They are efficient... they know how to pre pack food items, then heat up and serve... with exceptional quality. The European food style also includes the main course to be served to the group from a large platter with the expertise of a skilled waiter. The rolls are always piping hot and fresh.
> 
> So what is it that's so impressive? Efficiency, quality, skill, and expertise.
> 
> That would be doable for Amtrak with the right attitude!
> View attachment 18353
> 
> View attachment 18354


Are there many full service dining cars left in Europe? None in France that I know of. The Great Western in Britain and I think one in Wales. That's all. I don't think there are any in Spain or Italy. Eastern Europe seems to have some. Where else?


----------



## Steve4031

Unless things have changed in Germany some of the ICE trains have full service dining cars that operate for the duration of the 6 to 8 hour trip. I’ve eaten eggs with smoked salmon on these trains. And the bread pudding was outstanding.


----------



## jiml

Steve4031 said:


> Unless things have changed in Germany some of the ICE trains have full service dining cars that operate for the duration of the 6 to 8 hour trip. I’ve eaten eggs with smoked salmon on these trains. And the bread pudding was outstanding.


Still there last summer.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Steve4031 said:


> Unless things have changed in Germany some of the ICE trains have full service dining cars that operate for the duration of the 6 to 8 hour trip. I’ve eaten eggs with smoked salmon on these trains. And the bread pudding was outstanding.


Your comment brings to recent memory a delightful experience with Germany's ICE trains. I had been walking around Berlin throughout the day and was hot and tired. Finding lodging prices sky high there I decided to hop an ICE train and just get off at a small town along the way. The 1st class German rail pass had unlimited use for two consecutive weeks. I plopped down in the restaurant car and ordered an ice cold beer. Most enjoyable! An hour later I stepped off at some small town and found a really great comfortable pension where I slept like a log!


----------



## jiml

20th Century Rider said:


> Your comment brings to recent memory a delightful experience with Germany's ICE trains. I had been walking around Berlin throughout the day and was hot and tired. Finding lodging prices sky high there I decided to hop an ICE train and just get off at a small town along the way. The 1st class German rail pass had unlimited use for two consecutive weeks. I plopped down in the restaurant car and ordered an ice cold beer. Most enjoyable! An hour later I stepped off at some small town and found a really great comfortable pension where I slept like a log!
> 
> View attachment 18370


I couldn't believe they had draft beer on tap on a train and it was served in a big frosty stemmed glass that they'd bring to you in your compartment. I'd have spilled it for sure.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

I'm not a beer drinker... but it hits the spot once in a great while... and I don't remember from a few years ago if it were as you mentioned and questioned... but for whatever its worth... the Germans know how to do beer. It was probably served from out of a bottle... above and beyond all... I do remember it was ice cold and absolutely delicious!

This has me remembering how wonderful those German trains are... magic carpets!


----------



## jiml

20th Century Rider said:


> I'm not a beer drinker... but it hits the spot once in a great while... and I don't remember from a few years ago if it were as you mentioned and questioned... but for whatever its worth... the Germans know how to do beer. It was probably served from out of a bottle... above and beyond all... I do remember it was ice cold and absolutely delicious!
> 
> This has me remembering how wonderful those German trains are... magic carpets!
> 
> View attachment 18371


That's the small one!  They don't have the menu on their website currently, but IIRC there were two sizes of draft and two bottled beers available. The draft tap is just to the right of the attendant in this pic:


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jiml said:


> That's the small one!  They don't have the menu on their website currently, but IIRC there were two sizes of draft and two bottled beers available. The draft tap is just to the right of the attendant in this pic:
> 
> View attachment 18372


Hmmm... you have me now dreaming of a trip back to Germany for more of that beer! First I'd fly on Lufthansa where they do serve draft beer in the sky... then pick up the ICE in Frankfurt for the 200mph journey to Munich then making way to the Hofbrauhaus to indulge in a few lagers, brats, dumplings, and ham hocks!

Anybody want to come along???


----------



## Steve4031

Yes.


----------



## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> you have me now dreaming of a trip back to Germany for more of that beer! First I'd fly on Lufthansa where they do serve draft beer in the sky... then pick up the ICE in Frankfurt for the 200mph journey to Munich then making way to the Hofbrauhaus to indulge in a few lagers, brats, dumplings, and ham hocks!
> 
> Anybody want to come along???



When do we leave? I once visited a Hofbrauhaus in Berlin. What a pleasant and memorable experience!


----------



## Qapla

You offering to pay?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> You offering to pay?


Yes! I'll be happy to buy the beer if you pay for the trip!


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## railiner

20th Century Rider said:


> Your comment brings to recent memory a delightful experience with Germany's ICE trains. I had been walking around Berlin throughout the day and was hot and tired. Finding lodging prices sky high there I decided to hop an ICE train and just get off at a small town along the way. The 1st class German rail pass had unlimited use for two consecutive weeks. I plopped down in the restaurant car and ordered an ice cold beer. Most enjoyable! An hour later I stepped off at some small town and found a really great comfortable pension where I slept like a log!
> 
> View attachment 18370


I remember riding one of those in the NEC, when they were in competition with the X2000 for new high speed NEC trains...it featured a 'Bord' food service car.
I will say, the X2000 had a notably smoother ride on the NEC than the ICE. The X2000 had steerable axles on each truck, that better compensated for track variation's. I'm sure the ICE did very well on its home DB.....


----------



## Qapla

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes! I'll be happy to buy the beer if you pay for the trip!



And here I thought you were offering to pay for the trip.


Unfortunately, not only can I NOT afford the trip ... until they make a train that goes from here to Germany, I will have to put off that trip - I don't fly.


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## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: Please try to keep your comments limited to a discussion of whether full service dining will return to Western trains. Thank you for your continued cooperation. 
Be safe and be well.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Qapla said:


> And here I thought you were offering to pay for the trip.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, not only can I NOT afford the trip ... until they make a train that goes from here to Germany, I will have to put off that trip - I don't fly.


Looks like they're already talking about that Transatlantic Train! "But a transatlantic undersea maglev train would arguably make a great way to cross the pond. Amortization would indeed be a long-term proposition, requiring some sort of public-private investment scheme, but the end result would allow for seamless travel between Manhattan and central London.'









The Case For Transatlantic Undersea Trains


More than a decade ago, a couple of researchers briefly popularized the idea of constructing an undersea transatlantic maglev railroad that would link New York and London, Brussels, or Paris in just a few hours.




www.forbes.com





They would serve free beer all the way! Now will you want to go???


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## 20th Century Rider

Flex meals extended through December 15! If you like em you're in luck. YUCK!!!!

Service Change
Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through December 15, 2020, Sleeping Car customers will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


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## Sidney

Unbelievable. This is the death knoll for full service dining. Good God,if they are going to keep extending this substandard food service please include sandwiches and cafe car food as choices. Gee,why did I even think there was an inkling of hope that full service dining would return in September?


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## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Unbelievable. This is the death knoll for full service dining. Good God,if they are going to keep extending this substandard food service please include sandwiches and cafe car food as choices. Gee,why did I even think there was an inkling of hope that full service dining would return in September?


Feeling your pain... and the disappointment of so many on this forum who have been so patient and hopeful that this dark cloud would just go away... better this 'feed' be given to the pigs in the barn. Such small processed food product meals are not fresh and not healthy... and in no way satisfying... and to serve the same repetitious monotonous stuff every day over and over again on these three day two night cross country runs throughout the system is just nasty to the customer. Albeit in concert with reduced service. Personally my enthusiasm to pay higher prices and get so much less is... ka'put! Very very sad.


----------



## yarrow

please remind me again why auto-train has kept and gets to keep traditional dining.


----------



## RichieRich

yarrow said:


> please remind me again why auto-train has kept and gets to keep traditional dining.


'Cause r/t at Xmas cost me $3,600!


----------



## Sidney

Very inconsistent. Only reason full service dining is on the Auto Train is because it is the only profitable long distance route Amtrak has. I understand that is only for sleeping car passengers. So,if you spend over $1000 for a one way trip you can have your steak. I knew that September date wouldn't happen. Again Amtrak PLEASE include sandwiches and cafe car food as an option for the Western trains!!!


----------



## Sauve850

Sidney said:


> Unbelievable. This is the death knoll for full service dining. Good God,if they are going to keep extending this substandard food service please include sandwiches and cafe car food as choices. Gee,why did I even think there was an inkling of hope that full service dining would return in September?


Not sure why you are surprised given the magnitude and the financial crisis of this pandemic. Think next September, maybe.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Dear Forum Colleagues,

There has been significant concern regarded the downgraded food service on all overnight trains. As we were all waiting to see what would happen at the end of August when Amtrak had indicated that full service dining would once again resume Sept 1... an announcement was made that flex dining will be extended until December 15. Among all the hopeful optimism and frustrated concerns we are confronted with a food service that has brought unimaginable distain... with it's minimalist quantity, quality, and displeasure to those who travel days and nights in first class sleeper services, with new and higher fares... expecting and hopeful that at least for restoration of dining services. Flex dining is extraordinarily poor, unhealthy, heated in melting plastics bringing a carcinogenic threat, and unsatisfying... this, amidst cutbacks in frequency is truly discouraging to so many of us on this forum. It appears that Amtrak is doing everything it can to discourage ridership. What do you think and are you planning any further Amtrak LD travel???


----------



## Albi

20th Century Rider said:


> [...] Amtrak had indicated that full service dining would once again resume Sept 1... an announcement was made that flex dining will be extended until December 15. [...] It appears that Amtrak is doing everything it can to discourage ridership. What do you think and are you planning any further Amtrak LD travel???



I was actually planning another circle trip for autumn, hoping the dining would be reinstalled by October. 

After my week long trip in May I had complained about the lack of service and the terrible food quality, and I was given $300 in vouchers to make up for it. 

Obviously I can't do that again, because they will now say I knew what I was getting into, so there won't be any second voucher coming my way if I book for October. 

I will simply wait, my vouchers are good until June next year. Maybe they will realize their mistake and bring traditional dining back. (I know how stupid this sounds, I know!)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

20th Century Rider said:


> Dear Forum Colleagues,
> 
> There has been significant concern regarded the downgraded food service on all overnight trains. As we were all waiting to see what would happen at the end of August when Amtrak had indicated that full service dining would once again resume Sept 1... an announcement was made that flex dining will be extended until December 15. Among all the hopeful optimism and frustrated concerns we are confronted with a food service that has brought unimaginable distain... with it's minimalist quantity, quality, and displeasure to those who travel days and nights in first class sleeper services, with new and higher fares... expecting and hopeful that at least for restoration of dining services. Flex dining is extraordinarily poor, unhealthy, heated in melting plastics bringing a carcinogenic threat, and unsatisfying... this, amidst cutbacks in frequency is truly discouraging to so many of us on this forum. It appears that Amtrak is doing everything it can to discourage ridership. What do you think and are you planning any further Amtrak LD travel???
> 
> View attachment 18388


There's a deadly virus that has taken over the country causing a lot of changes to what we're used to. 
I am in the planning stages for a LD trip. I'm more concerned about the virus than I am about the dining car.


----------



## Steve4031

I’m trying a round trip on the Empire Builder. The only meal I like is the pasta with meatballs. I can tolerate the breakfast. I’m going to try get food delivered at Minot and/or Havre for lunch snacking etc. if that doesn’t work I’ll eat macaroni and cheese for lunch or a cheeseburger from the lounge car. 

I think things will improve once the republicans are out.


----------



## joelkfla

Sturdy meatballs :


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> Feeling your pain... and the disappointment of so many on this forum who have been so patient and hopeful that this dark cloud would just go away... better this 'feed' be given to the pigs in the barn. Such small processed food product meals are not fresh and not healthy... and in no way satisfying... and to serve the same repetitious monotonous stuff every day over and over again on these three day two night cross country runs throughout the system is just nasty to the customer. Albeit in concert with reduced service. Personally my enthusiasm to pay higher prices and get so much less is... ka'put! Very very sad.
> 
> View attachment 18384


Garbage


----------



## lordsigma

yarrow said:


> please remind me again why auto-train has kept and gets to keep traditional dining.


I'd guess a few reasons. The Auto Train is a popular product they don't want to mess with for one. Another (I'd suspect) is that at busy times there are a lot more mouths to feed at those meal servings - it would be much harder for one LSA to handle food service for everyone efficiently on this particular train. The Auto Train meals while not flex dining are a bit more institutional and standardized and allow less customization and have less choices than the traditional dining that was offered on the western trains. Not surprised about the December extension. While I do not think it is impossible for traditional dining to someday return on some routes (never is a long time and I'm usually not one to use it), I would surmise the earliest possible return (if it ever does) would be peak summer season next year (if we have a little better handle on the pandemic and people are traveling again.) While I hope it returns for my June cross country excursion next year, I do not see it returning so long as the virus is raging and suppressing all travel demand.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> Dear Forum Colleagues,
> 
> There has been significant concern regarded the downgraded food service on all overnight trains. As we were all waiting to see what would happen at the end of August when Amtrak had indicated that full service dining would once again resume Sept 1... an announcement was made that flex dining will be extended until December 15. Among all the hopeful optimism and frustrated concerns we are confronted with a food service that has brought unimaginable distain... with it's minimalist quantity, quality, and displeasure to those who travel days and nights in first class sleeper services, with new and higher fares... expecting and hopeful that at least for restoration of dining services. Flex dining is extraordinarily poor, unhealthy, heated in melting plastics bringing a carcinogenic threat, and unsatisfying... this, amidst cutbacks in frequency is truly discouraging to so many of us on this forum. It appears that Amtrak is doing everything it can to discourage ridership. What do you think and are you planning any further Amtrak LD travel???
> 
> View attachment 18388
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 18389



I want to use up my Rewards points and then I'll be finished with Amtrak LD travel. The food is discouraging but I'm also worried about inadequate AC which has been reported here.


----------



## Bob Dylan

20th Century Rider said:


> Dear Forum Colleagues,
> 
> There has been significant concern regarded the downgraded food service on all overnight trains. As we were all waiting to see what would happen at the end of August when Amtrak had indicated that full service dining would once again resume Sept 1... an announcement was made that flex dining will be extended until December 15. Among all the hopeful optimism and frustrated concerns we are confronted with a food service that has brought unimaginable distain... with it's minimalist quantity, quality, and displeasure to those who travel days and nights in first class sleeper services, with new and higher fares... expecting and hopeful that at least for restoration of dining services. Flex dining is extraordinarily poor, unhealthy, heated in melting plastics bringing a carcinogenic threat, and unsatisfying... this, amidst cutbacks in frequency is truly discouraging to so many of us on this forum. It appears that Amtrak is doing everything it can to discourage ridership. What do you think and are you planning any further Amtrak LD travel???
> 
> View attachment 18388
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 18389


No Trips for me ( except in my Car and by foot) until a Proven Vaccine is in use and the Stats are down to the level of other Countries like Taiwan, New Zealand etc.


----------



## TinCan782

*EXTENDED!*
_Service Change
Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through *December 15, 2020*, Sleeping Car customers will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service._








Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com


----------



## fdaley

Like several others here, I won't be traveling until the coronavirus is way more under control than it is now. And at our current lousy rate of progress, I really have no idea when that will be. It might take another nationwide stay-at-home effort, but I don't see that happening before the election. Whenever the virus is tamed, I'd like to travel on the western trains again if real dining service is restored; otherwise, I won't be aboard. So while I'm disappointed to hear that "flex-food" is continuing for now, realistically I wouldn't be considering a train trip before Dec. 15 anyway, and it could be another year or more. My fear is that Amtrak management won't ever get around to restoring dining service. But the fact that they're still specifying a target date (albeit a later one) is at least a hopeful sign.


----------



## johnmiller

20th Century Rider said:


> Flex meals extended through December 15! If you like em you're in luck. YUCK!!!!
> 
> Service Change
> Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through December 15, 2020, Sleeping Car customers will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.



Amtrak should just be honest and say, "We don't want you to ride in our sleepers anymore. THIS is how we're going to make sure that you never do again."


----------



## scrollmaster

You are so right that service, especially dining car, has tanked as low as the utter crap being served for food at the ridiculous price we pay for it. We live in northeast Louisiana and wife and I literally loved traveling Amtrak bedrooms and would spend 3-4 weeks at a time using LD trains riding around the US or to Canada to spend time at destinations along the way. Time in the dining car sharing decent meals with fellow travellers was one of the most enjoyable highlights of LD train travel. I have months ago put away my Amtrak World cards as I am already bloated with points from no trips this year and also may cancel scheduled trip next April paid with points to Canada to ride Via's The Canadian but watching and hoping something positive will emerge out of Amtrak... not holding my breath.


----------



## chrsjrcj

At least Amtrak gives a date for the return of traditional dining, even if it does keep getting pushed back. I'd be less optimistic if they went the Sunset Limited "service has been suspended, and future service has not been determined" route.


----------



## scrollmaster

johnmiller said:


> Amtrak should just be honest and say, "We don't want you to ride in our sleepers anymore. THIS is how we're going to make sure that you never do again."


Amtrak certainly has gained the knack of making you feel that is their mission at hand.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

It amazes me how people seem to forget that CONGRESS mandated Amtrak not lose money on F&B.


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## Steve4031

AmtrakBlue said:


> It amazes me how people seem to forget that CONGRESS mandated Amtrak not lose money on F&B.



agreed. Didn’t Congress change on that recently.


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## tonys96

Congress did not mandate what Amtrak is doing now. There are other options.


----------



## Barb Stout

Ferroequinologist said:


> I want to use up my Rewards points and then I'll be finished with Amtrak LD travel. The food is discouraging but I'm also worried about inadequate AC which has been reported here.


I read the various posts about inadequate AC. My experience on the SW Chief in May and August in the actual southwest was the opposite. During the first trip in May, I discovered that it is quite comfortable in summer clothes during the day, but at night, it turned into an icebox. So I was prepared with layers of clothes for the August trip, but I was still too cold during the night. The solar gain down here is extremely powerful.


----------



## Exvalley

Given the Covid situation, I am completely understanding of Flexible Dining. However, what really bothers me is that they can offer some quality healthy choices and still have the dining be flexible. It's like they aren't even trying.


----------



## Larry H.

It seems like Amtrak has found a way to discourage passengers on long distance trains which in turn will give them an excuse to try to eliminate them. I for one have been very unhappy with the food for quite some time, even before the new boxed meals some of the meals were less than well prepared. And like others I am sad to say I will probably not ride either till something is found to make it safe again. Your life isn't worth the food you get, nor the beat up sleeping cars.


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## Steve4031

The problem is that too many companies use COVID as an excuse to cut back. On a recent toad trip I stayed at several Hilton garden inns and received full breakfast. The same at Perkins. When you make cutbacks you eliminate jobs and this affects human beings. This cut cut cut mentality needs to change.


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## Sidney

I mentioned this in an earlier post. If this flex dining is here to stay why can't we have other choices like sandwiches or subs and food from the cafe car that isn't offered in the flex menu like pizza and a burger?

I have a circle trip planned on the Texas Eagle and Southwest Chief next month. The substandard meals do not deter me from riding,but again why don't we have more choices on the flex menu? We are paying a lot of money for a sleeper. I guess Amtrak just doesn't care.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> I mentioned this in an earlier post. If this flex dining is here to stay why can't we have other choices like sandwiches or subs and food from the cafe car that isn't offered in the flex menu like pizza and a burger?


You have a valid point. I don't see why Amtrak can't expand the cafe offerings and totally do away with the flex meal kitchen. It would offer more and better choices for sleeping car passengers who are paying so much. They could just provide room number as they did in the former restaurant and allow for ordering a salad, main course, dessert, and drink? I believe they are actually doing this now on the Lake Shore between BOS and ALB.

This alternative solution would could save Amtrak money and would make everyone happier. Wondering how many sleeping car passengers would actually prefer the limited flex meal program to open choice in the cafe which would negate this suggestion???


----------



## Skyline

We should not expect the "new normal" to revert to anything like the "old normal" until Covid-19 is clearly under control. Whether trains or anything else in society. And the virus won't be under control until we have national officials all on the same science-based page to lead the effort. Obviously, the route Trump, McConnell, et al have taken has only made it a lot worse with no end in sight. Other nations have done much better with far less.

Having said that, there are things Congress COULD do in the interim to shore up Amtrak so when the day comes, transition back to "normal" is easier. For example, planning for success instead of failure regarding on-board services including dining, and legislating that operating railroads return slots to pax trains that will temporarily go from daily to tri-weekly.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

So where's the lack of basic creative initiative on the part of Amtrak to come up with workable solutions that would save money, address the restrictions brought about by the virus, and at the same time bring some sort of acceptable quality for the passenger? Amtrak's lack of direction shows that no one is actually 'minding the store.'


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> I mentioned this in an earlier post. If this flex dining is here to stay why can't we have other choices like sandwiches or subs and food from the cafe car that isn't offered in the flex menu like pizza and a burger?
> 
> I have a circle trip planned on the Texas Eagle and Southwest Chief next month. The substandard meals do not deter me from riding,but again why don't we have more choices on the flex menu? We are paying a lot of money for a sleeper. I guess Amtrak just doesn't care.


No apparent direction at Amtrak. It mimics the government bureaucracy... no one cares about us!


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


>


Mmmmm! looks so good. Makes my mouth water and my eyes shut (or is it my eyes water an my mouth shut?)

I can't understand how anyone could want a stupid old steak with baked potato, half chicken or Angus burger when you have one of these beauties to gorge on!


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> You have a valid point. I don't see why Amtrak can't expand the cafe offerings and totally do away with the flex meal kitchen. It would offer more and better choices for sleeping car passengers who are paying so much. They could just provide room number as they did in the former restaurant and allow for ordering a salad, main course, dessert, and drink? I believe they are actually doing this now on the Lake Shore between BOS and ALB.
> 
> This alternative solution would could save Amtrak money and would make everyone happier. Wondering how many sleeping car passengers would actually prefer the limited flex meal program to open choice in the cafe which would negate this suggestion???


I don’t know. The cafe car isn’t anything to write home about and has some ok and some terrible offerings - I certainly wouldn’t want it as the only option on a really long trip. I do think offering some of the lighter options such as a hot dog and ham burger or salad or sandwich would be a good alternative particularly for lunch. There’s no reason why you can’t stock some of these same items in the diner along with the flex meals And have the LSA heat those as a meal alternative - they are already doing it with the jimmy dean breakfast sandwiches which are the same ones served in the cafe.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> I don’t know. The cafe car isn’t anything to write home about and has some ok and some terrible offerings - I certainly wouldn’t want it as the only option on a really long trip. I do think offering some of the lighter options such as a hot dog and ham burger or salad or sandwich would be a good alternative particularly for lunch. There’s no reason why you can’t stock some of these same items in the diner along with the flex meals And have the LSA heat those as a meal alternative - they are already doing it with the jimmy dean breakfast sandwiches which are the same ones served in the cafe.


Am in somewhat partial agreement. But the point to be made is that the cafe menu can be expanded to include more variety and quality; and simply replace the flex kitchen and attendant... or have two attendants in an expanded cafe car. Food catering can easily come up with chef salads as well as cheese/cracker/veggie snacks; and fresh fruit. As I mentioned earlier, sleeping car passengers use the cafe between BOS and ALB on the Lakeshore and I've found it to be a much more enjoyable food experience.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Barb Stout said:


> I read the various posts about inadequate AC. My experience on the SW Chief in May and August in the actual southwest was the opposite. During the first trip in May, I discovered that it is quite comfortable in summer clothes during the day, but at night, it turned into an icebox. So I was prepared with layers of clothes for the August trip, but I was still too cold during the night. The solar gain down here is extremely powerful.



That's just it - totally unpredictable. What's your idea of freezing, by the way? I keep my home 68-70.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

lordsigma said:


> I don’t know. The cafe car isn’t anything to write home about and has some ok and some terrible offerings - I certainly wouldn’t want it as the only option on a really long trip. I do think offering some of the lighter options such as a hot dog and ham burger or salad or sandwich would be a good alternative particularly for lunch. There’s no reason why you can’t stock some of these same items in the diner along with the flex meals And have the LSA heat those as a meal alternative - they are already doing it with the jimmy dean breakfast sandwiches which are the same ones served in the cafe.



Good grief. Can't we even have a simple sandwich (not one of those awful 'wraps') and a cup of soup for lunch? I don't want the same food for lunch and dinner. Let's face it, Amtrak management simply doesn't care. This forum gives us a chance to vent but it's very highly unlikely in Amtrak management reads this.


----------



## Steve4031

On some occasions I have had cheeseburgers comped. It his happened 2 of 4 times on 48 and once on the Cardinal. Individual employees stayed that since I was in n first class it was ok. On the times I paid the employee simply charged me. One time I asked and the employee stayed this wasn’t policy. I’m not sure what the official policy is but individual LSAs have done this.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> Good grief. Can't we even have a simple sandwich (not one of those awful 'wraps') and a cup of soup for lunch? I don't want the same food for lunch and dinner. Let's face it, Amtrak management simply doesn't care. This forum gives us a chance to vent but it's very highly unlikely in Amtrak management reads this.


I applaud your every word because it jives exactly with what so many of us on this forum are saying. The tiny tasteless monotonous flex food meals are disgraceful, disrespectful, wasteful, unhealthy, and reflective of a complete separation of Amtrak management with its customers. But why don't they just fix their error in management judgement when the result could both make customers happier and save them money at the same time??? Makes no sense at all!

Oh well... we're just tripping over ourselves as we repeat the same concerns to deaf ears.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Sidney said:


> I mentioned this in an earlier post. If this flex dining is here to stay why can't we have other choices like sandwiches or subs and food from the cafe car that isn't offered in the flex menu like pizza and a burger?
> 
> I have a circle trip planned on the Texas Eagle and Southwest Chief next month. The substandard meals do not deter me from riding,but again why don't we have more choices on the flex menu? We are paying a lot of money for a sleeper. I guess Amtrak just doesn't care.



Yes they don't care. Do you think Amtrak management ride LD trains?


----------



## west point

From bits and pieces of what some experts are afraid of our opion is that Covid-19 will not be contained before October - Dec 31, 2021. It will take that long to get workable tretments and a possible vaccine into most US persons and containment of the rest of the potential world, Non vaccinated persons will not be able to travel to the USA. Just because a vaccine might ( A very big if) be approved by Jan 1, 2021 manufacturer and distribution will take time. 

At present any government expert or any bussiness connected to government cannot say so because (s)he would be fired immediately. Then a terrible campaign of discrediting against the person.
So do not expect any change in dinning before a bill can pass guaranteeing daily Amtrak service. Then if the present bill stays the same then maybe partial and then full dinning might return ?

Remember if the USA develops a vaccine it will not just need 300 million doses for US residents but politically it will need 1 Billion doses for our allies if they have not developed a vaccine.


----------



## antcomp

I just looked at the flexible dining menus for the first time. Is it bad that the first thing I noticed, was that somehow only Coke and Ginger ale are on offer? How flexible do passengers have to be for Amtrak not to offer sprite? Not to even mention root beer.


----------



## Maverickstation

BREAKING NEWS UPDATE.

From Amtrak's site.

*Service Change*
Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through December 15, 2020, Sleeping Car customers will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

west point said:


> From bits and pieces of what some experts are afraid of our opion is that Covid-19 will not be contained before October - Dec 31, 2021. It will take that long to get workable tretments and a possible vaccine into most US persons and containment of the rest of the potential world, Non vaccinated persons will not be able to travel to the USA. Just because a vaccine might ( A very big if) be approved by Jan 1, 2021 manufacturer and distribution will take time.
> 
> At present any government expert or any bussiness connected to government cannot say so because (s)he would be fired immediately. Then a terrible campaign of discrediting against the person.
> So do not expect any change in dinning before a bill can pass guaranteeing daily Amtrak service. Then if the present bill stays the same then maybe partial and then full dinning might return ?
> 
> Remember if the USA develops a vaccine it will not just need 300 million doses for US residents but politically it will need 1 Billion doses for our allies if they have not developed a vaccine.



They are rushing the development of a vaccine by bypassing some of the normal protocols. The risk is that it could turn out like the 1976 flu vaccine that had some very serious side effects. There is going to be resistance to a vaccine that a lot of people will feel has not been carefully tested over a period of time. And, as you say, it will take time to get people vaccinated. Such a vaccine may only have a 50% efficacy according to Fauci and may only work for three months. Various vaccines may be needed due to multiple strains. The point is that this is going to be a long, complex process. There is no panacea. Meanwhile, if Amtrak's concern is social distancing they have NO EXCUSE for the miserable food they are now offering. They can either improve the frozen food offerings to be more like airline first class or bring back a chef. Meals can be delivered to rooms. If they don't do this they will just keep extending the 'flexible' meals indefinitely. I'm pretty sure they will do the latter, if in fact the LD trains even survive.


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## joelkfla

Ferroequinologist said:


> They are rushing the development of a vaccine by bypassing some of the normal protocols.


Source?


----------



## Barb Stout

Ferroequinologist said:


> That's just it - totally unpredictable. What's your idea of freezing, by the way? I keep my home 68-70.


Oh yeah, in the summer this Albuqueno would be chilly at 68 F if I was just sitting around all day. That's the temperature I keep the house at in the winter--sweater weather-- and I love to wear my sweaters. In the summer, I keep it at 74-75 F. But I really don't know what the temperature was on the SWC when the sun went down, although I would guess that it was less than 68 F.


----------



## Barb Stout

joelkfla said:


> Source?


I think the main "protocol" that was bypassed is running certain phases (Phase 1 and Phase 2, for example) at the same time rather than waiting for a complete analysis of 1 phase before proceeding to the next phase which is what is usually done. I'm not too worried about that. Several vaccines are now in Phase 3 where they test it in thousands and thousands of volunteers. I was thinking of signing up for that as one of the vaccines is about to start phase 3 trials where I live, but I did decide against it because I just don't get out much, so am not too likely to be exposed to the virus anyway.


----------



## Barb Stout

Ferroequinologist said:


> They are rushing the development of a vaccine by bypassing some of the normal protocols. The risk is that it could turn out like the 1976 flu vaccine that had some very serious side effects.


I think the main "protocol" that was bypassed is running certain phases (Phase 1 and Phase 2, for example) at the same time rather than waiting for a complete analysis of 1 phase before proceeding to the next phase which is what is usually done. I'm not too worried about that. Several vaccines are now in Phase 3 where they test it in thousands and thousands of volunteers. That's the phase where you might see some untoward effects that might not show up in the earlier safety and efficacy trials which are tested with fewer and healthy people. If they start rolling out a vaccine whose Phase 3 trial data has not been fully analyzed, then that would be really bad, but I don't think that would happen. But I guess "fully" is a relative term, so maybe I should edit that word "fully" out of the sentence. I was thinking of signing up for a Phase 3 trial as one of the vaccines is about to start phase 3 trials where I live, but I did decide against it because I just don't get out much, so am not too likely to be exposed to the virus anyway.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The American pharmaceutical industry has been manufacturing vaccine doses in commercial quantities since early in the candidate testing process. This allows for much faster distribution and application after an eventual approval, but it also makes assumptions about safety and muddies the water if a fault or failure is identified. Let's say you're a government regulator who is advised that there are some troubling results with the latest vaccine trials but that fixing the formula will require throwing millions of doses in the trash and starting over from scratch with several months of delay to get back to where you started. Some of us would take the safer path, even if it meant our careers were destroyed and family threatened or harmed in the process, but others would simply weigh the risks vs benefits and decide it would be easier to explain releasing too early rather than too late. In the case of a typical first responder it might make sense to take the vaccine no matter what, but any decision that involves hundreds of millions needs to be handled thoughtfully rather than rushed to the finish line. That's the danger that concerns me.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Mmmmm! looks so good. Makes my mouth water and my eyes shut (or is it my eyes water an my mouth shut?)
> 
> I can't understand how anyone could want a stupid old steak with baked potato, half chicken or Angus burger when you have one of these beauties to gorge on!





20th Century Rider said:


> Feeling your pain... and the disappointment of so many on this forum who have been so patient and hopeful that this dark cloud would just go away... better this 'feed' be given to the pigs in the barn. Such small processed food product meals are not fresh and not healthy... and in no way satisfying... and to serve the same repetitious monotonous stuff every day over and over again on these three day two night cross country runs throughout the system is just nasty to the customer. Albeit in concert with reduced service. Personally my enthusiasm to pay higher prices and get so much less is... ka'put! Very very sad.
> 
> View attachment 18384


Look closely at this picture... see those teenie tiny mini salads? They have indeed discontinued the teenie tiny carrot shavings! I'm wondering what's next to go... perhaps the cherry tomato? Oh my!


----------



## Nick Farr

Basically, it comes down to this:

From the Amtrak Service Line Plans FY 21-25:

"Millennials, the largest population cohort, seek travel experiences that are inexpensive yet Instagram-worthy, with seamless Wi-Fi capability for any work or leisure/social activity. In contrast, Baby Boomers gravitate toward luxury experiences with differentiated amenities, yet also value seamless connectivity. As a responsible steward of federal dollars, Amtrak must ensure we are making investments that maximize public benefit"

The Long Distance Trains provide Instagram-worthy sights and relative comfort even if food is not included. The market that cares deeply about the food is not the market Amtrak wants on the trains. Most of the Instagram set I've seen on the LD trains don't really care one way or another about the food, it wouldn't prevent them from making the trip.

The other thing is that the LD trains are a hybrid product. The Auto Train IS an all-sleeper luxury product designed to get people down to their vacation homes in Florida. It will continue to grow as a service line since it was designed from the beginning to serve one purpose and one purpose only. 

All of the other LD routes serve a variety of customers going to a variety of different destinations. These LD routes are there because they serve rural populations that like having a train around, but make most of their money from those traveling longer distances.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> Basically, it comes down to this:
> 
> From the Amtrak Service Line Plans FY 21-25:
> 
> "Millennials, the largest population cohort, seek travel experiences that are inexpensive yet Instagram-worthy, with seamless Wi-Fi capability for any work or leisure/social activity. In contrast, Baby Boomers gravitate toward luxury experiences with differentiated amenities, yet also value seamless connectivity. As a responsible steward of federal dollars, Amtrak must ensure we are making investments that maximize public benefit"
> 
> The Long Distance Trains provide Instagram-worthy sights and relative comfort even if food is not included. The market that cares deeply about the food is not the market Amtrak wants on the trains. Most of the Instagram set I've seen on the LD trains don't really care one way or another about the food, it wouldn't prevent them from making the trip.
> 
> The other thing is that the LD trains are a hybrid product. The Auto Train IS an all-sleeper luxury product designed to get people down to their vacation homes in Florida. It will continue to grow as a service line since it was designed from the beginning to serve one purpose and one purpose only.
> 
> All of the other LD routes serve a variety of customers going to a variety of different destinations. These LD routes are there because they serve rural populations that like having a train around, but make most of their money from those traveling longer distances.


Your comments are impressive and reflect a good logical grasp of things as they are. The food issue has brought questions regarding justifiable pricing which in the past has included complete dining service, coupled with supply and demand 'bucket levels.' I wonder if Amtrak ever breaks down the pricing; or it is now just going to supply and demand like the airlines??? This is more of a question than a comment. The decline in food service doesn't seem to have effected fares. I wonder how you and others feel about actual pricing???


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Nick Farr said:


> The market that cares deeply about the food is not the market Amtrak wants on the trains. Most of the Instagram set I've seen on the LD trains don't really care one way or another about the food, it wouldn't prevent them from making the trip.


Meals, drinks, and dining are actually a huge part of the instagram culture. So much so that it has become a meme to photograph your meals for almost any reason. The problem for Amtrak is that instagrammers generally want to be seen and associated with fresh, healthy, and/or trendy cuisine -- which is the _exact opposite_ of Amtrak's precooked TV trays. That's what makes this post look more like projection than perception. If Amtrak doesn't want my business that's their prerogative, but most instagrammers are not big spenders and it would take a lot of $50 photo op fares to replace just one $500 sleeper fare.


----------



## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> Look closely at this picture... see those teenie tiny mini salads? They have indeed discontinued the teenie tiny carrot shavings! I'm wondering what's next to go... perhaps the cherry tomato? Oh my!


That would be fine with me. Cherry tomatoes have been so relentless bred for sturdiness (and picked prematurely) that they're usually either sour or devoid of any flavor.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> Meals, drinks, and dining related services are actually a huge part of the instagram culture. So much so that it has become a persistent meme to photograph your meals for almost any reason. The problem for Amtrak is that instagrammers generally want to be seen and associated with fresh, healthy, and trendy cuisine -- which is the _exact opposite_ of Amtrak's precooked TV tray nonsense. That's what makes this post look more like projection than perception. If Amtrak doesn't want my business that's their prerogative, but most instagrammers are not big spenders and it would take a lot of $50 photo op fares to replace just one $500 sleeper fare.


I really don't think Amtrak cares about millennials, or instagram culture, or anything else... they're just doing what they want to do to cut costs with any regard for anyone or anything. The 'bean counters' pad their edicts with a little verbiage here and there which in effect is totally meaningless. Our struggle is to accept illogical government agency bureaucracy which never seems to make sense. Is anyone aware at what's going on with the US postal system? Real crisis there. Hmmm... and at Amtrak too!


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## 20th Century Rider

joelkfla said:


> That would be fine with me. Cherry tomatoes have been so relentless bred for sturdiness that they're usually either sour or devoid of any flavor.


And 'lettuce' not neglect the fine flavor of that yummy nummy lettuce! 
Have they started rationing out the dressing packets yet???


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Some of My instagram posted breakfasts on trains - Amtrak, Hoosier State, VIA Rail. And then “contemporary dining” on the Silver Meteor.


----------



## Nick Farr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Meals, drinks, and dining are actually a huge part of the instagram culture.



Correct, but nobody in that culture is going to Amtrak for the dining. The folks that will head out on Amtrak are the adventure seekers, the campers, the folks who don't really care about dining in the context of a train adventure that is rustic from the outset. 

(I say this having photographed almost all the meals on the menu and put a somewhat generously positive spin on them in this very forum.)

The other part of that culture is that few of them are going to photograph what is a sub-par experience, or run the risk of "pulling a boomer". They're going to photograph the highlights and kind of ignore the food. If they are traveling now, they're looking for novel experiences and/or things that are COVID safe.

Those that are prone to dunking on the experience are more likely to ride in coach, where there are many other problems far more serious than meal service.



> ...most instagrammers are not big spenders and it would take a lot of $50 photo op fares to replace just one $500 sleeper fare.



While this is correct across the population of Instagrammers, there is a very substantial segment of travelers with that kind of disposable income who are looking for novel experiences that aren't necessarily luxurious. If you look at the YouTube travel segment, you'll see a lot of the under 40 set speaking positively about the sleeper experience, which for around $500/day does provide some unparalleled views.

The other thing to realize is that a lot of under 40 folks don't have cars or kids. A lot of them don't even have driver's license. AMTRAK can replace the traditional road trip for those who aren't embracing #vanlife.

From a strategic perspective, killing off dining service and doing the bare minimum so sleeper car passengers don't starve:

Saves money (and between union contracts and FRA rules, it's one of the only things they can save money on).
Helps eliminate incentives for older passengers and others who have higher service expectations
Cultivates a newer market that will pay premium pricing with lower service expectations
In my view, strategically, this is *not the correct* approach. The correct approach as I see it would be having sleeper car passengers pre-order meals, partnering with local food establishments along the route and providing for fresher refrigerated options for anytime meal service. Also allowing passengers to swap out a dinner for a salad and a beer/wine and creating other options, along with cross-training SCAs and DCAs and having a designated workspace for the LSA would help.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Some of My instagram posted breakfasts on trains - Amtrak, Hoosier State, VIA Rail. And then “contemporary dining” on the Silver Metoer.
> View attachment 18407
> View attachment 18408
> View attachment 18409
> View attachment 18410


Aw... c'mon... you're making my mouth water... except for that last pic of the flex breakfast; just lost my appetite!


----------



## Nick Farr

20th Century Rider said:


> The food issue has brought questions regarding justifiable pricing which in the past has included complete dining service, coupled with supply and demand 'bucket levels.' I wonder if Amtrak ever breaks down the pricing; or it is now just going to supply and demand like the airlines??? This is more of a question than a comment.



Amtrak cannot generally LOWER fares beyond the lowest bucket price, there is a quasi-regulatory floor which prevents them from engaging in true revenue pricing. 

They are also generally bound by "first come, first served", which means anyone can book a roomette from Ft Collins to Denver at the floor price, even if it means that they would lose the opportunity to serve a passenger from Chicago to Emeryville.

They also have not been doing a great job of offering/advertising upgrades. This is a key revenue driver for airlines.

The incentives are for cost cutting, not necessarily increasing other potential sources of revenue or maximizing revenue opportunities.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> but most instagrammers are not big spenders



Source? There are over 1 billion instagram users.


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## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> Amtrak cannot generally LOWER fares beyond the lowest bucket price, there is a quasi-regulatory floor which prevents them from engaging in true revenue pricing.
> 
> They are also generally bound by "first come, first served", which means anyone can book a roomette from Ft Collins to Denver at the floor price, even if it means that they would lose the opportunity to serve a passenger from Chicago to Emeryville.
> 
> They also have not been doing a great job of offering/advertising upgrades. This is a key revenue driver for airlines.
> 
> The incentives are for cost cutting, not necessarily increasing other potential sources of revenue or maximizing revenue opportunities.


Sounds archaic to me... if they used better technology and maximized other resources, they could probably reduce loss and increase profits.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> The other thing to realize is that a lot of under 40 folks don't have cars or kids. A lot of them don't even have driver's license.



This is all accurate for me. 

I know that I’ve traveled on Amtrak less and less as cuts to on board service have been made. Amtrak management would probably label me a railfan (guilty...) but I’m replacing my Amtrak travel with air travel. 

If I want to take a train for fun I’m taking a steam train. I use Amtrak when I need to get somewhere. Now I may take a longer than needed route (hello starlight and empire builder from LA to Chicago...) but I’m still using it as transportation.


----------



## Qapla

If I needed to travel to NY from here in Florida - my first inclination is to check Amtrak. If that is not possible due to their removing service or the cost being too high, my next move is to check Mega Bus and/or Greyhound ... if all else fails, I would either stay home or see if I could drive.

I do not take the train to NY just to ride the train.

Yes, I enjoy traveling by train - but I also view it as transportation ... not just a rail cruise.


----------



## railiner

Nick Farr said:


> The Auto Train IS an all-sleeper luxury product


Really? Last time I checked, the AT carried coaches...


----------



## railiner

Nick Farr said:


> which means anyone can book a roomette from Ft Collins to Denver at the floor price, even if it means that they would lose the opportunity to serve a passenger from Chicago to Emeryville.


Fort Collins to Denver? New Front Range train? I think you meant Fort _Morgan...._


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Maverickstation said:


> BREAKING NEWS UPDATE.
> 
> From Amtrak's site.
> 
> *Service Change*
> Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through December 15, 2020, Sleeping Car customers will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


Er... Um... this broke a few days ago and there's been a mountain of posts about it already. Join the chorus of annoyed and concerned Amtrak fans and un-Amtrak fans!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Some of My instagram posted breakfasts on trains - Amtrak, Hoosier State, VIA Rail. And then “contemporary dining” on the Silver Metoer.
> View attachment 18407
> View attachment 18408
> View attachment 18409
> View attachment 18410


In that last pic I think you forgot to include the soggy congealed 'breakfast sandwich' which is pure fat, sodium, starch, and 'additives' to go along with the 'delicious' flex breakfast. Or has that been discontinued as well?


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Millennial here, can confirm none of us like bad food. We also really don't like being alone and isolated, even if that's what we're used to, and we're not shy of strangers, so communal seating is not a turn-off.

I could go on and on about how things could be done better but let's just be honest here, all of Amtrak's supposed justifications for making the food worse are just excuses to cover up their agenda, which is to reduce ridership on long distance trains until they can be allowed to discontinue them. Same as 50 years ago. When do you think they'll dust off the Southern Pacific vending machines?


----------



## Nick Farr

railiner said:


> Fort Collins to Denver? New Front Range train? I think you meant Fort _Morgan...._



Correct, I meant Fort Morgan. While I'm here correcting myself, I'd like to thank Mike Jensen for consistently posting the CZ on YouTube as it passes through Fort MORGAN.


----------



## Nick Farr

railiner said:


> Really? Last time I checked, the AT carried coaches...



Maybe I should have said it's a _land cruise_ product. You're right about the coaches, I don't know where I got that misinformed idea. 

However, I imagine traditional dining will remain unchanged on it because it's specifically a part of that focused, _land cruise_ product. I know for a fact that the Auto Train started off as a private venture and the thinking that went into building that product is largely unchanged.

Would testing or bringing a similar product to market be possible inside today's Amtrak organization?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Millennial here, can confirm none of us like bad food. We also really don't like being alone and isolated, even if that's what we're used to, and we're not shy of strangers, so communal seating is not a turn-off.
> 
> I could go on and on about how things could be done better but let's just be honest here, all of Amtrak's supposed justifications for making the food worse are just excuses to cover up their agenda, which is to reduce ridership on long distance trains until they can be allowed to discontinue them. Same as 50 years ago. When do you think they'll dust off the Southern Pacific vending machines?


You're proof that Amtrak management doesn't have a clue about the passengers it serves... and yes, they seem determined to shut down long distance trains.


----------



## Nick Farr

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Millennial here, can confirm none of us like bad food.



Millennial here, can confirm that the flex dining is not a deal-killer...and a lot of us ate a lot of "bad food" because we were left with no other options. Unlike Boomers, we've been conditioned from birth to overpay and settle for less.



ShiningTimeStL said:


> Amtrak's supposed justifications for bad food are just excuses to cover up their agenda, which is to reduce ridership on long distance trains until they can be allowed to discontinue them. Same as 50 years ago. When do you think they'll dust off the Southern Pacific vending machines?



A kinder way of saying this is that they're trying to stem the bleeding with things about the product they can control. There's really not a lot they have control over other than the dining. They can't control the stations, the staffing, the routes...they have just barely enough control over the consists, etc. Why does each car need an SCA? Aren't they idle a lot of the time?

I think all they have to do is wait for the Superliners to fall apart or have a serious accident that would then allow them to kill the LD network--but Congress will probably step in at that point.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> I think all they have to do is wait for the Superliners to fall apart or have a serious accident that would then allow them to kill the LD network--but Congress will probably step in at that point.


They already are falling apart... heating cooling problems on most superliners; seats and tables are in disrepair. Also, there are a total of 17 superliner cars that have been damaged in accidents which have been taken out of service and are being used for spare parts before going to the scrap yard.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Nick Farr said:


> Millennial here, can confirm that the flex dining is not a deal-killer...and a lot of us ate a lot of "bad food" because we were left with no other options. Unlike Boomers, we've been conditioned from birth to overpay and settle for less.
> 
> 
> 
> A kinder way of saying this is that they're trying to stem the bleeding with things about the product they can control. There's really not a lot they have control over other than the dining. They can't control the stations, the staffing, the routes...they have just barely enough control over the consists, etc. Why does each car need an SCA? Aren't they idle a lot of the time?
> 
> I think all they have to do is wait for the Superliners to fall apart or have a serious accident that would then allow them to kill the LD network--but Congress will probably step in at that point.


It's not exactly a deal killer for me either but it's very close. 

There are so many creative things they could do to both cut costs and make the experience better. It's really not that hard to make decent food in an easy and cheap manner. One cook, a freezer full of pre-prepared meals made with fresh ingredients, and a couple of pressure cookers. Fewer hot menu items and passengers must order ahead of time, but you'd still get the white tablecloth, and lower blood pressure. Something like that.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

joelkfla said:


> Source?



I've read it in a number of places but here is one. They are compressing a process that normally takes years into a few months. The US is fast-tracking a coronavirus vaccine, but bypassing safety standards may not be worth the cost


----------



## flitcraft

Is dining a deal-killer for us? Maybe...For the last ten years or so, we've taken LD trains on average twice a year--occasionally more, occasionally less. Always in sleepers. We don't have high expectations for food on a train, really. Just basically that there be healthy, palatable choices for all three meals, and with enough choice so that it isn't the same meal every time. That isn't asking a lot. And I agree that an expanded set of offerings in the cafe car could satisfy us, even though we will miss the experience of the dining car. But flex dining is making us reconsider how often and whether we travel by LD train in the future. Frankly, our train travel is a big splurge for us--we both drive 20 year old compact cars and seldom eat out. Train travel is something special; if it becomes Ryan Air by rail, it will lose a lot of its appeal. We'll likely take the Empire Builder again sometime--haven't done that for many years; but without question, we'll travel Amtrak a lot less. I'll miss it, without question. But I bet Amtrak won't miss our business, sadly.


----------



## tgstubbs1

I tried to do as much research on station location and environs so I could get food during stops. Some stations have stores, delis, restaurants, etc. close enough to walk if you know where they are. Some might not have anything nearby.
Usually when I travel I enjoy food specialties from the local area if I can.


----------



## west point

What I do not understand why Amtrak does not go to prepaid meals ? The set up would be refrigerated much like airline meals . When making reservations pick your meal. Cut off times would be posted with the reservation system. Then heat them up as patrons come to the diner or has them delivered to sleeper locations. Any meals not taken because of whatever reason will be offered for sale to other passengers or those that booked too late to prepay. 

This method would require more catering locations to maintain freshness. Unfortunately many routes do not at present have locations that can provide timely caterring especially on the western routes.
Locations that could provide meals are TOL, BUF , Pittsburgh, CLT, ATL, Florence, maybe Columbia, JAX or Orlando, MEM, Kansas City, Houston, Denver, MSP, ABQ, SLC, RNO, The Builder on west maybe a problem except Spokane?

This is by no mean a perfect solution but certainly better than what has bbeen or the present terribles.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

west point said:


> What I do not understand why Amtrak does not go to prepaid meals ? The set up would be refrigerated much like airline meals . When making reservations pick your meal. Cut off times would be posted with the reservation system. Then heat them up as patrons come to the diner or has them delivered to sleeper locations. Any meals not taken because of whatever reason will be offered for sale to other passengers or those that booked too late to prepay.
> 
> This method would require more catering locations to maintain freshness. Unfortunately many routes do not at present have locations that can provide timely caterring especially on the western routes.
> Locations that could provide meals are TOL, BUF , Pittsburgh, CLT, ATL, Florence, maybe Columbia, JAX or Orlando, MEM, Kansas City, Houston, Denver, MSP, ABQ, SLC, RNO, The Builder on west maybe a problem except Spokane?
> 
> This is by no mean a perfect solution but certainly better than what has bbeen or the present terribles.



There is nothing stopping Amtrak from working with a local catering company. For at least 10 years the Empire Builder used to pick up “Big Sky Chicken Dinners” in Montana that could be purchased in the lounge car.


----------



## fdaley

Nick Farr said:


> From the Amtrak Service Line Plans FY 21-25:
> 
> "Millennials, the largest population cohort, seek travel experiences that are inexpensive yet Instagram-worthy, with seamless Wi-Fi capability for any work or leisure/social activity. In contrast, Baby Boomers gravitate toward luxury experiences with differentiated amenities, yet also value seamless connectivity. As a responsible steward of federal dollars, Amtrak must ensure we are making investments that maximize public benefit"
> 
> The Long Distance Trains provide Instagram-worthy sights and relative comfort even if food is not included. The market that cares deeply about the food is not the market Amtrak wants on the trains.



I certainly don't think the traditional dining service Amtrak was offering in recent years amounted to a "luxury" experience. It was acceptable and often good, and the current offerings are unappetizing at best, loaded with sodium and so small as to leave one hungry an hour later. So, they're a deal-killer for me and for a lot of others who've traveled Amtrak often in the past.

All of Amtrak's talk about millennials just seems like so much blather to me. The ridership in sleeping cars has always skewed older because people over 50, and especially over 65, are more likely to have the time and money to travel that way. As a matter of basic business sense, it doesn't seem particularly smart to economize in ways that alienate your most loyal, high revenue customers and hope that their lost business will be offset by new customers from a demographic that mostly isn't in the habit of using your services.


----------



## Sauve850

Ferroequinologist said:


> They are rushing the development of a vaccine by bypassing some of the normal protocols. The risk is that it could turn out like the 1976 flu vaccine that had some very serious side effects. There is going to be resistance to a vaccine that a lot of people will feel has not been carefully tested over a period of time. And, as you say, it will take time to get people vaccinated. Such a vaccine may only have a 50% efficacy according to Fauci and may only work for three months. Various vaccines may be needed due to multiple strains. The point is that this is going to be a long, complex process. There is no panacea. Meanwhile, if Amtrak's concern is social distancing they have NO EXCUSE for the miserable food they are now offering. They can either improve the frozen food offerings to be more like airline first class or bring back a chef. Meals can be delivered to rooms. If they don't do this they will just keep extending the 'flexible' meals indefinitely. I'm pretty sure they will do the latter, if in fact the LD trains even survive.


What airline are you flying first class thats serving food? Ive been on two major airlines first class and no food.


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> Source? There are over 1 billion instagram users.


And with 1B of them, one can always make up stories about their liking to eat Amtrak garbage and find many that qualify.

Of course, 1B users mean at least 1B neurons, which is a tenth of a human brain or 1M fruitfly brains. But I'm sure that Instagram users have a few orders of magnitude more than one - at least on average.


----------



## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> Helps eliminate incentives for older passengers and others who have higher service expectations





Typo error on your part. I corrected it below.


Helps eliminate incentives for older passengers and others who have higher service expectations


----------



## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Typo error on your part. I corrected it below.
> 
> 
> Helps eliminate incentives for older passengers and others who have higher service expectations



Amtrak's apparent reasoning is that millennials love those flex meals and the salads without the carrot slivers [which they have just eliminated.] Uh oh! Now they've upset the millennials! So if they've been successful in eliminating us baby boomers... and the millennials too... now they can finally remove those LD trains. Thats what they're good at. BTW They made the post office prepay employee pensions for workers who have not even been born yet and so the PO is now broke too. 

The government is supposed to be 'by the people and for the people,' but if they can get rid of the people too, then the government will have attained its greatest potential... 'a monument for monuments!' 

Wait! I thought we were talking about Amtrak!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

me_little_me said:


> Typo error on your part. I corrected it below.
> 
> 
> Helps eliminate incentives for older passengers and others who have higher service expectations



Not to mention “higher service expectations” is the equivalent of a Denny’s or an IHOP.


----------



## bms

"Millennial" is a marketing buzzword. There will never be a generation that prefers worse food for the same price.

I also don't understand why Amtrak doesn't load enough food onto the train to last the whole trip. Half the menu is gone by the end of every trip. This was a problem previously but now that the food is nonperishable, there's really no excuse.


----------



## Rasputin

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not to mention “higher service expectations” is the equivalent of a Denny’s or an IHOP.


Given my last trip on the Lake Shore, I would have jumped for joy if 48 had pulled up to a Dennys or an IHOP for breakfast en route. 

(This was May 2019 - I can't recall if it was contemporary dining or flexible dining at that time and does it make any difference?)


----------



## Nick Farr

bms said:


> "Millennial" is a marketing buzzword. There will never be a generation that prefers worse food for the same price.



It's actually a well-recognized demographic, just like the Boomer generation. (Sorry Gen X, no love for you.)

It's a matter of preferences. There are demographics that will not care as much about dining options, not find the Flex Dining to be a deal-killer or actually prefer it.


----------



## joelkfla

Ferroequinologist said:


> I've read it in a number of places but here is one. They are compressing a process that normally takes years into a few months. The US is fast-tracking a coronavirus vaccine, but bypassing safety standards may not be worth the cost


OK, that appears to be written by qualified authors, and though I've never heard of those Australian universities, they seem to be well respected and unbiased.

But the risks cited are to the safety of human test subjects, and the possibility of reduced public acceptance due to the accelerated process. I didn't see any concerns expressed about the safety of the vaccine to the public after completion of the human trials.

I trust Dr. Anthony Fauci implicitly. I've seen him praised by numerous other doctors, and he was addressed with great respect by other prominent doctors in a televised forum. Dr. Fauci says no vaccine will be approved in the U.S. unless it is safe (unlike Russia.)


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Source? There are over 1 billion instagram users.


Using instagram ≠ instgrammer if you take my meaning. In my example an instagrammer is someone who chooses their methods and destinations based (at least in part) on how well they will be received on social media. I'm subscribed to hundreds of social media accounts and the vast majority of travel related content revolves around bang-for-buck budget hacks rather than caution to the wind spending. That's not to say there are no instragrammers who travel in luxury out of their own deep pockets. I'm just saying they're a minority compared to the vast and ever-present thrifty traveler segment. Even luxury-focused instagrammers would likely only travel in Amtrak sleepers once or twice before moving on to something else, which makes chasing them more of a passing fad than a genuine replacement or expansion.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> It's actually a well-recognized demographic, just like the Boomer generation. (Sorry Gen X, no love for you.)
> 
> It's a matter of preferences. There are demographics that will not care as much about dining options, not find the Flex Dining to be a deal-killer or actually prefer it.


It's interesting to see all the research that has been conducted... 75 million strong and now in greater numbers than the babyboomer generation. They are certainly a well recognized demographic... but with variances in preferences depending on where they live, ethnic background, etc.

Empirical research shows minimal patronage of LD trains... and that they don't like LD food service. 

Regarding millennials and rail transit:


https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/Resources/resources/reportsandpublications/Documents/APTA-Millennials-and-Mobility.pdf



Regarding millennials and food preferences:








Millennial Food Preferences


Find Out What Flavors and Forms This Influential Generation Looks for When Dining OutMillennials make up a large portion of potential customers. Born between 1977 and 1992, this group is projected to surpass boomers as the country’s largest living generation, according to the U.S. Census Bureau...




www.gfs.com




.









Millennials Archives


Research and data on Millennials from the Pew Research Center




www.pewresearch.org









__





Millennial Preferences: Not So Different | Newgeography.com







www.newgeography.com


----------



## Barb Stout

Nick Farr said:


> Basically, it comes down to this:
> 
> From the Amtrak Service Line Plans FY 21-25:
> 
> "Millennials, the largest population cohort, seek travel experiences that are inexpensive yet Instagram-worthy, with seamless Wi-Fi capability for any work or leisure/social activity. In contrast, Baby Boomers gravitate toward luxury experiences with differentiated amenities, yet also value seamless connectivity.


So both groups want WiFi, but at least some of the Western trains that I have taken either don't have it or it's not strong enough to be useful. But that was with my old phone. Maybe my new phone will be better. So does this mean that Amtrak is planning on improving this aspect?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rasputin said:


> Given my last trip on the Lake Shore, I would have jumped for joy if 48 had pulled up to a Dennys or an IHOP for breakfast en route.
> 
> (This was May 2019 - I can't recall if it was contemporary dining or flexible dining at that time and does it make any difference?)



After “traditional dining” there was Contemporary dining .1 which had the boxed salad meals. I never had one but the reviews on here were somewhat favorable for what they were. They certainly looked higher quality and healthier based on the photos l. 

The current version, the TV dinners, are the new and improved menu. Even though everyone I’ve talked to, including Amtrak staff, say there should be an entree salad option offered.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> It's a matter of preferences. There are demographics that will not care as much about dining options, not find the Flex Dining to be a deal-killer or actually prefer it.



Do you honestly beleive that anyone would prefer the current menu and selections?


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Do you honestly beleive that anyone would prefer the current menu and selections?



Yes. There are people who love those TV dinner style meals and there is more variety in the expanded options menu.

My point is that Amtrak is trying to capture the market that doesn't care about the food while, possibly, discouraging people who are going to be turned off by the lack of proper dining service.

Which reminds me, did they ever have a proper bar up top on the observation car? There's that wet bar by the stairwell that I've never seen used...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nick Farr said:


> Yes. There are people who love those TV dinner style meals and there is more variety in the expanded options menu.
> 
> My point is that Amtrak is trying to capture the market that doesn't care about the food while, possibly, discouraging people who are going to be turned off by the lack of proper dining service.
> 
> Which reminds me, did they ever have a proper bar up top on the observation car? There's that wet bar by the stairwell that I've never seen used...


Yep, the Empire Builder used to staff it with a Second LSA that sold Drinks. Last time I saw it used was in 2011 on the way home from the Seattle Gathering.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Nick Farr said:


> There are people who love those TV dinner style meals and there is more variety in the expanded options menu.


Who said they loved Amtrak's new TV dinners? The positive commentary I've seen so far has been faint and vaguely worded praise at best. I can understand and agree that there are people who will eat almost anything and/or simply do not care what is served, but what is there to love about these meals? I realize that TV dinners were a big deal back in the 1950's but this is 2020 and I don't eat food that puts my health at risk unless it's worth the fat and calorie hit. That does not included generic precooked leftovers.


----------



## Nick Farr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Who said they loved Amtrak's new TV dinners? The positive commentary I've seen so far has been faint and vaguely worded praise at best. I can understand and agree that there are people who will eat almost anything and/or simply do not care what is served, but what is there to love about these meals? I realize that TV dinners were a big deal back in the 1950's but this is 2020 and I don't eat food that puts my health at risk unless it's worth the fat and calorie hit. That does not included generic precooked leftovers.



From Lean Cuisine to DEVOUR there's lots of frozen food nuke-it-and-go aficionados. I don't get it either.

And yes, I had vague "it's not the end of the world" praise for these meals.

If you look at most of the fast food people eat, from a fat and salt perspective it's not that much better.

It's not a deal killer for me. It's not what I'd do, but I'm more interested in advocating/exploring alternative solutions than beating a fait accompli to death.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> It's not a deal killer for me. It's not what I'd do, but I'm more interested in advocating/exploring alternative solutions than beating a fait accompli to death.



And I get that. I understand what you’re trying to do but I highly doubt even 1% of sleeping car passengers would say they prefer the TV dinner menu. (Notice I’m saying menu, not service style, that’s a different discussion). 



Nick Farr said:


> Which reminds me, did they ever have a proper bar up top on the observation car? There's that wet bar by the stairwell that I've never seen used...



I saw it used years ago on the Empire Builder. This also meant the cafe downstairs never closed for meal breaks. One of the attendants was always downstairs serving and the upstairs was open during peak times. They had snacks too, just nothing heated up. You could get chips, m&m’s, pastries in the morning, etc.


----------



## Sidney

I'll be on the Texas Eagle/Sunset from Chicago to LA next month and the SW Chief on the return. That's Sunday afternoon through early Wednesday morning going out. I'll ask if I can substitute a cafe car item like a pizza or a burger. If not I'll buy them. I only like the Shrimp and lobster sauce,but eating that for lunch and dinner is tough. I always purchase breakfast danish at convenience stores before I board so I can have another option. 

As many have said,the current offerings which seem to be permanent do not deter my passion for riding in a sleeper. I booked this trip using a points sale in July so I was paying a little over 32,000 points round trip. To get to Chicago from where I board in Harrisburg Pa I paid cash for overnight coach. With the guarantee of two seats to yourself,it was worth it. My only concern is now that my points have dwindled down the thought of paying anywhere from 525 to 600 dollars for two nights and blah food in a roomette from Chicago to the West Coast could curtail my train wanderlust.


----------



## railiner

The CZ was another train that used the upper bar during peak seasons...drinks and snacks. Back then they had movies playing, and a piano in the lower lounge...




__





Piano lounge in a Sightseer Lounge car, 1980s. — Amtrak: History of America’s Railroad


Promotional color photograph showing the interior of an original piano lounge on the lower level of a Superliner I Sightseer Lounge car; photo likely dates to the early 1980s.




history.amtrak.com


----------



## Rasputin

Nick Farr said:


> Yes. There are people who love those TV dinner style meals and there is more variety in the expanded options menu.


I lived on a lot of TV dinners in grad school in the 1970s and they were far superior to what we were served on 48 for breakfast and lunch in May 2019.


----------



## Exvalley

Rasputin said:


> I lived on a lot of TV dinners in grad school in the 1970s and they were far superior to what we were served on 48 for breakfast and lunch in May 2019.


Oh, come on now. The 1970s Swanson salisbury steak and turkey tv dinners with powdered mashed potatoes were definitely not "far superior" to what is served on Amtrak today. Mind you, neither are good - but the 1970s tv dinners were downright awful.


----------



## Rasputin

Exvalley said:


> Oh, come on now. The 1970s Swanson salisbury steak and turkey tv dinners with powdered mashed potatoes were definitely not "far superior" to what is served on Amtrak today. Mind you, neither are good - but the 1970s tv dinners were downright awful.
> 
> View attachment 18437


I will take that Salisbury Steak Dinner over the May 2019 Lake Shore fare any time. I must have had that dinner once a week years ago and I suspect it had less salt than the present Amtrak meals.


----------



## Exvalley

Rasputin said:


> I will take that Salisbury Steak Dinner over the May 2019 Lake Shore fare any time. I must have had that dinner once a week years ago and I suspect it had less salt than the present Amtrak meals.


Nostalgia can be a strong thing. Those old tv dinners were absolutely loaded with sodium. And I'm surprised that you would prefer chopped meat and powdered mashed potatoes over real cuts of beef and real potatoes. You are certainly in the minority. Although if memory serves me correctly, the chicken I had in the chicken alfredo dish (now gone from Amtrak's menu) was made of compressed chicken.

I'm not saying that Amtrak's meals are good - they aren't. I'm just being honest about what those 1970s tv dinners were.


----------



## Rasputin

Exvalley said:


> Nostalgia can be a strong thing. Those old tv dinners were absolutely loaded with sodium. And I'm surprised that you would prefer chopped meat and powdered mashed potatoes over real cuts of beef and real potatoes. You are certainly in the minority. Although if memory serves me correctly, the chicken I had in the chicken alfredo dish (now gone from Amtrak's menu) was made of compressed chicken.
> 
> I'm not saying that Amtrak's meals are good - they aren't. I'm just being honest about what those 1970s tv dinners were.
> 
> View attachment 18438


I realize that we all have different tastes. I probably had at least 40 or 50 of each of these TV dinners over a period of several years. Since I was a repeat customer many times over, I obviously considered them quite satisfactory in terms of taste, price, time and convenience, nostalgia aside. I would usually make a decent size salad (about 4 times the size of the present Amtrak salad) to accompany the meal as I dined alone in my apartment nostalgically living the ascetic life.


----------



## Exvalley

The salad offered by Amtrak is a joke. It's sized for a toddler. And don't even get me started on the iceberg lettuce...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Exvalley said:


> And I'm surprised that you would prefer chopped meat and powdered mashed potatoes over real cuts of beef and real potatoes.



Where is this on the contemporary menu?


----------



## Dakota 400

I also am one who has consumed many of those Swanson Frozen Dinners over the years. Certainly not haute cuisine, but they served their purpose and were usually tasty. I still buy one or two and keep them in my freezer for those meal times when I need to fix something quickly and/or I don't want to cook something for myself. 

Being served such a meal in a "restaurant", be it stationary or "on wheels", is unacceptable and really a type of insult to the patron.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> The salad offered by Amtrak is a joke. It's sized for a toddler. And don't even get me started on the iceberg lettuce...


I've long wondered how a flavorless and nutritionless web of cellulose snuck into the lettuce family.


----------



## Exvalley

crescent-zephyr said:


> Where is this on the contemporary menu?


I was thinking the red wine braised beef, but I now remember that it has polenta. But you get my point. A salisbury steak is not the same as real pieces of beef.


----------



## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> I've long wondered how a flavorless and nutritionless web of cellulose snuck into the lettuce family.


It is a big myth that iceberg lettuce is nutritionless. This article explains it well:








How Healthy Is Iceberg Lettuce, Exactly?


There may not be much love for this classic salad staple in health circles, but it’s not as bad as you might think.




www.cookinglight.com





TLDR: It actually has some nutrition, but iceberg lettuce is lower in nutrients than other types of lettuces.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Exvalley said:


> It is a big myth that iceberg lettuce is nutritionless. This article explains it well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How Healthy Is Iceberg Lettuce, Exactly?
> 
> 
> There may not be much love for this classic salad staple in health circles, but it’s not as bad as you might think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cookinglight.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TLDR: It actually has some nutrition, but iceberg lettuce is lower in nutrients than other types of lettuces.


After reading the article I'm still not sure if you're an expert on nutrition or just unfamiliar with the role of hyperbole in casual speech.


----------



## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> After reading the article I'm still not sure if you're an expert on nutrition or just unfamiliar with the role of hyperbole in casual speech.


You aren't exactly known for your hyperbole. Quite the opposite. You are usually zealously literal. So forgive me for assuming that you were not engaging in it this time.


----------



## Asher

Devil's Advocate said:


> After reading the article I'm still not sure if you're an expert on nutrition or just unfamiliar with the role of hyperbole in casual speech.


Forgetting the nutritional side, sometimes FRESH iceberg lettuce adds just the right crunch to a hamburger, Even in a salad it's just the right touch. At which time I'll have to find my nutrition elsewhere.


----------



## Manny T

Dakota 400 said:


> ...Swanson Frozen Dinners over the years. Certainly not haute cuisine, but they served their purpose...



This hits the nail on the head -- not that the 1950's TV dinners were good or bad, but that they served their purpose for those consumers who bought them. And they were voluntary, a supermarket choice among other available options.

The question about Amtrak flex-dining is, does it serve its purpose? Generally speaking, does it do the job of offering Amtrak's best (highest-paying) customers dining options consistent with their expectations, likes and dislikes, health concerns, and desire for choice and variety, to the extent possible on a moving train?

I think the answer is pretty obvious (for most).


----------



## Qapla

With the dining options available in the "dining car" (whatever they call the car now reserved for sleeper passengers) I'm glad they no longer offer it to those in coach. I would not be happy to pay the price they would charge those in coach to eat in the diner - it would be worse than the overcharging that is now done in the café car that coach passengers can buy from.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

anumberone said:


> Forgetting the nutritional side, sometimes FRESH iceberg lettuce adds just the right crunch to a hamburger, Even in a salad it's just the right touch. At which time I'll have to find my nutrition elsewhere.


A fresh layer of iceberg can form a convenient separator between the meat and condiments of a burger. It can also work as a wrap for Asian style chicken appetizers or paired with blue cheese and bacon in the form of a wedge. Where it really falls apart for me is when it's used as cheap filler in an entree salad. Where I live restaurants expect us to spend $10-15 on a salad representing maybe fifty cents worth of iceberg filler plus a buck or two worth of toppings and dressing. Back in the era of refer cars iceberg was probably the best they could manage but these days I'm surprised it continues to maintain a stranglehold.


----------



## Exvalley

Manny T said:


> This hits the nail on the head -- not that the 1950's TV dinners were good or bad, but that they served their purpose for those consumers who bought them. And they were voluntary, a supermarket choice among other available options.
> 
> The question about Amtrak flex-dining is, does it serve its purpose? Generally speaking, does it do the job of offering Amtrak's best (highest-paying) customers dining options consistent with their expectations, likes and dislikes, health concerns, and desire for choice and variety, to the extent possible on a moving train?
> 
> I think the answer is pretty obvious (for most).


That makes a lot of sense. They served their purpose well, at least for the era. And, no, they don’t serve their purpose on Amtrak well. I know I’m beating a dead horse, but it would be very easy for Amtrak to have premade meals that are at much higher quality.

And as far as the iceberg lettuce is concerned, one thing I miss from my days growing up in Connecticut is shaved iceberg lettuce on a submarine sandwich. The lettuce was usually shaved in a deli meat slicer. It added a perfect crunch.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Exvalley said:


> I know I’m beating a dead horse, but it would be very easy for Amtrak to have premade meals that are at much higher quality.



Agreed. There is no excuse for Amtrak to not have a decent quality entree salad on the menu.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> That makes a lot of sense. They served their purpose well, at least for the era. And, no, they don’t serve their purpose on Amtrak well. I know I’m beating a dead horse, but it would be very easy for Amtrak to have premade meals that are at much higher quality.
> 
> And as far as the iceberg lettuce is concerned, one thing I miss from my days growing up in Connecticut is shaved iceberg lettuce on a submarine sandwich. The lettuce was usually shaved in a deli meat slicer. It added a perfect crunch.


Trust me, the 50s TV Dinners ( mostly Swanson)were terrible, just like the swill being slung in Amtrak "Sleeper Lounges " right now!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

joelkfla said:


> OK, that appears to be written by qualified authors, and though I've never heard of those Australian universities, they seem to be well respected and unbiased.
> 
> But the risks cited are to the safety of human test subjects, and the possibility of reduced public acceptance due to the accelerated process. I didn't see any concerns expressed about the safety of the vaccine to the public after completion of the human trials.
> 
> I trust Dr. Anthony Fauci implicitly. I've seen him praised by numerous other doctors, and he was addressed with great respect by other prominent doctors in a televised forum. Dr. Fauci says no vaccine will be approved in the U.S. unless it is safe (unlike Russia.)



Fauci is not the only expert in the world. Not everyone agrees with his pronouncements. There is always risk with vaccines but the risk is going to be greater when the vaccine has not been tested over a period of time. There is tremendous pressure to restart the world economy. That is why they are skipping over normal protocols. By the way, Fauci says that a vacccin e may only be 50% effective and various vaccines may be needed for different strains. He also said that it will take some time to get a significant number vaccinted. And a few months ago he said NOT to wear masks. He is not God. I put implicit faith only in the real God.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Sauve850 said:


> What airline are you flying first class thats serving food? Ive been on two major airlines first class and no food.



Swiss Air is very good. I had some delicious meals on Saudi Arabian Airlines also, in coach class. Even AA in first was good. The presentation was done well. Delta first class was fabulous a few years ago. The cabin attendant couldn't have been more enthusiastic. He really liked his job. Food was very good and they served several very good wines. Amtrak, by comparison, treats first class paeengers like Greyhound passengers or worse.


----------



## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> Trust me, the 50s TV Dinners ( mostly Swanson)were terrible, just like the swill being slung in Amtrak "Sleeper Lounges " right now!


please tell me it’s not that bad. 
Swill and slung, two words that don’t belong in a diner.


----------



## Bob Dylan

anumberone said:


> please tell me it’s not that bad.
> Swill and slung, two words that don’t belong in a diner.


That's Diner talk from Film Noir and Mickey Spillane stories!


----------



## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> That's Diner talk from Film Noir and Mickey Spillane stories!


Add the military and prison.


----------



## Sauve850

Ferroequinologist said:


> Swiss Air is very good. I had some delicious meals on Saudi Arabian Airlines also, in coach class. Even AA in first was good. The presentation was done well. Delta first class was fabulous a few years ago. The cabin attendant couldn't have been more enthusiastic. He really liked his job. Food was very good and they served several very good wines. Amtrak, by comparison, treats first class paeengers like Greyhound passengers or worse.


Sorry, I thought you were referring to US airline companies over the last 3-4 months not a few years ago. There were no meals served on Delta or American on my last flights in June in first class. A snack yes.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sauve850 said:


> Sorry, I thought you were referring to US airline companies over the last 3-4 months not a few years ago. There were no meals served on Delta or American on my last flights in June in first class. A snack yes.



Even 1 year ago! imagine 10 years from now we will be talking about the good days when you could order any drink and have it served in a real glass when flying. People will look at us as if we had said you used to be able to smoke in an airplane! Ha.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

crescent-zephyr said:


> Even 1 year ago! imagine 10 years from now we will be talking about the good days when you could a drink served in a real glass when flying. People will look at us as if we had said you used to be able to smoke in an airplane! Ha.



Everything is upside down now. All sorts of businesses are using the virus as an excuse to reduce services.


----------



## me_little_me

Exvalley said:


> I was thinking the red wine braised beef, but I now remember that it has polenta. But you get my point. A salisbury steak is not the same as real pieces of beef.


But, IIRC, the rest of the offerings were real meat, the desserts better and they looked better than Amtrak's. As to the salt, that was the standard of the day - flavor it with salt. We know better today.

On the other hand, Amtrak's "breakfast" is perfect '70s food. No nutrition but 100% sugar. Overall, I'll go with the old garbage over the new but considering what's available today, Amtrak really comes in a poor forth place - Present, good frozen meals, old frozen meals, the stuff I put on the curb weekly, Amtrak "flex meals". 

However, I will state that Amtrak's meals are much better than Alpo.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

me_little_me said:


> But, IIRC, the rest of the offerings were real meat, the desserts better and they looked better than Amtrak's. As to the salt, that was the standard of the day - flavor it with salt. We know better today.
> 
> On the other hand, Amtrak's "breakfast" is perfect '70s food. No nutrition but 100% sugar. Overall, I'll go with the old garbage over the new but considering what's available today, Amtrak really comes in a poor forth place - Present, good frozen meals, old frozen meals, the stuff I put on the curb weekly, Amtrak "flex meals".
> 
> However, I will state that Amtrak's meals are much better than Alpo.



Are you sure? What does your dog say?


----------



## me_little_me

Just got this in my email from Amtrak:

*Safely dine while on board*
 Signage, protective plastic barriers and markers leading up to café counters are being installed to promote physical distancing. We are also temporarily offering café service as carryout only and flexible dining service on overnight routes (with the exception of the Auto Train®). Customers in private rooms are encouraged to opt for complimentary room service, while dining and lounge seating will remain available on select routes with physical distancing protocols in place. 

I assume Safely does not refer to the food being safe to eat but only in that it is free of Covids.


----------



## flitcraft

I've been wracking my brain trying to imagine what demographic would actually prefer the flex dining service food over what used to be served, when it hit me: pre-teens! My granddaughter would love a diet of sugary and salty simple carbs if it were up to her. Sweetened yogurt, muffins, sugary cereal--yup, that would be heaven to her and her friends. What a pity that six year olds book so few LD trains...


----------



## Asher

flitcraft said:


> I've been wracking my brain trying to imagine what demographic would actually prefer the flex dining service food over what used to be served, when it hit me: pre-teens! My granddaughter would love a diet of sugary and salty simple carbs if it were up to her. Sweetened yogurt, muffins, sugary cereal--yup, that would be heaven to her and her friends. What a pity that six year olds book so few LD trains...


You know, Pop Tarts aren't all that bad.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> I realize that TV dinners were a big deal back in the 1950's but this is 2020 and I don't eat food that puts my health at risk unless it's worth the fat and calorie hit. That does not included generic precooked leftovers.


Where oh where is this discussion going? To eat that monotonous carcinogenic fat-sodium low quality food product containing zero texture and zero taste day after day while crossing the country definitely puts a d-e-n-t in the rail experience. So who exactly are the people who actually like this synthetic stuff??? I am confused and I don't get the argument that anyone would like that inedible stuff. Same quality as a frozen food product purchased at the dollar store for exactly $1. 

Sad. Very sad.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Exvalley said:


> Oh, come on now. The 1970s Swanson salisbury steak and turkey tv dinners with powdered mashed potatoes were definitely not "far superior" to what is served on Amtrak today. Mind you, neither are good - but the 1970s tv dinners were downright awful.
> 
> View attachment 18437


But did you ever get a chance to eat the Swanson fried chicken tv dinners? I must have been 6; but just loved them; and I do remember the tastes. I accepted the powdery potatoes because they were so yummy good with the taste of real butter. My respectful disagreement when comparing them to the flex meals. 

But ok... 'calling a spade a spade,' the salisbury steak was not good.

Compared to the utterly bleak Amtrak flex meals, the Swanson fried chicken dinner scores a 10 while each and every flex meals score a"0"!!! BTW... you can't get a TV dinner today of the same taste and quality. Yum yum yum!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

anumberone said:


> You know, Pop Tarts aren't all that bad.


So why doesn't Amtrak serve pop tarts for breakfast... They're really good! My gripe is that it's the consistently same breakfast nationwide with zero variety. So boring! I guess for some relief... B>Y>O>P>T... bring your own pop tarts!


----------



## Qapla

Many people stop at Starbucks, Dunkin, McDonalds and such every day and get the same thing for breakfast and/or lunch - all week long.

When you look at the popular fast food places, even though some serve burgers, others chicken and even fish - is there any real difference in the "quality", nutrition and salt content of the food?

Many are fine with eating in these places daily and then complain if they have to eat from a limited menu on the train ...

I'm not saying I want the current food selection for the overly exorbitant prices Amtrak is charging for sleeper travel - even if the meals are "free"

To truly justify the prices of sleeper travel on Amtrak the overall experience, service and food needs to be much, much better than it is now.

Returning "full service" meals would be a step in the right direction if they really want ridership to increase.


----------



## Sidney

I just find it hard to justify paying between 5 and 6 hundred dollars to travel in a roomette between Chicago and the West Coast with the flex dining. I wish Amtrak would adjust the pricing to reflect the downgrade in food. It will never happen.

I have been using a lot of my points for long trips. It doesn't seem as harsh. I did book two cross country circle trips using a points sale last month. One for last month and one for next month,which certainly made the purchase a lot more pleasant.

I 've mentioned this before,but I wish food from the cafe car and sandwiches were included as part of the sleeper fare just to have some variety! Why can't Amtrak do this?


----------



## Asher

I make Egg Bites in a instapot and they are just as good as the ones sold at Starbucks. They keep well refrigerated. They seem like a easy item for the Cafe Car.


----------



## tgstubbs1

If you bring your own food will Amtrak allow use of their microwave to prepare it?


----------



## pennyk

tgstubbs1 said:


> If you bring your own food will Amtrak allow use of their microwave to prepare it?


no!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

pennyk said:


> no!


In the past it has been Amtrak policy that they will not heat your food or keep it cool. However, in the recent past, the cafe attendants have confirmed that they will provide hot water for your instant soup or tea. With covid, this may have changed.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> I just find it hard to justify paying between 5 and 6 hundred dollars to travel in a roomette between Chicago and the West Coast with the flex dining. I wish Amtrak would adjust the pricing to reflect the downgrade in food. It will never happen.
> 
> I have been using a lot of my points for long trips. It doesn't seem as harsh. I did book two cross country circle trips using a points sale last month. One for last month and one for next month,which certainly made the purchase a lot more pleasant.
> 
> I 've mentioned this before,but I wish food from the cafe car and sandwiches were included as part of the sleeper fare just to have some variety! Why can't Amtrak do this?



Many of us on this forum are saying the exact same thing. Those drab little tasteless flex meals are not even a snack, let alone call them 'dining.' And after you've had a few yuk flexies they all 'tasteless' the same taste! Do they bring down the Amtrak experience??? You bet ya!

BTW... you're not alone in your reaction to flex meals!


----------



## Asher

lm not quite sure what this character is saying. Something to do with dinner


----------



## Nick Farr

Sauve850 said:


> There were no meals served on Delta or American on my last flights in June in first class. A snack yes.



How long were the flights? They usually have meals on flights over 1,000 miles but I don't know how COVID changed that.


----------



## Nick Farr

20th Century Rider said:


> In the past it has been Amtrak policy that they will not heat your food or keep it cool. However, in the recent past, the cafe attendants have confirmed that they will provide hot water for your instant soup or tea. With covid, this may have changed.



My last few CZ trips, they said consistently that you can always get got water or coffee from your SCA or in the observation car.

No coffee or juice in the vestibule in the mornings like it used to be though.


----------



## Nick Farr

me_little_me said:


> On the other hand, Amtrak's "breakfast" is perfect '70s food. No nutrition but 100% sugar.



I actually was enjoying the yogurt selections with the new flex breakfast. Skipped the muffin though. 

To be fair, most packaged breakfast options are straight carbs of some sort.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nick Farr said:


> I actually was enjoying the yogurt selections with the new flex breakfast. Skipped the muffin though.
> 
> To be fair, most packaged breakfast options are straight carbs of some sort.


Plus the excessive Sugar and Sodium!


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Agreed. There is no excuse for Amtrak to not have a decent quality entree salad on the menu.



I agree they should have this option, but the excuse is limited/lower quality refrigeration space.

Iceberg lettuce will keep forever in a container in a wide variety of settings. Entree salads of any decent quality will not keep for much more than 48 hours.

The solution is simple: Get a service provider that can resupply fresh food along the route.


----------



## Nick Farr

Ferroequinologist said:


> Delta first class was fabulous a few years ago. The cabin attendant couldn't have been more enthusiastic. He really liked his job. Food was very good and they served several very good wines. Amtrak, by comparison, treats first class paeengers like Greyhound passengers or worse.



Delta first class was great for me right up until. December of 2019 when I took my last flight.

Probably won't be flying anytime soon though. 

I definitely agree that most Amtrak service staff treat passengers like inconvenient cargo. However, there are really exceptional SCAs and some LSAs and conductors that really love their work and enjoy serving passengers.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I agree they should have this option, but the excuse is limited/lower quality refrigeration space.
> 
> Iceberg lettuce will keep forever in a container in a wide variety of settings. Entree salads of any decent quality will not keep for much more than 48 hours.
> 
> The solution is simple: Get a service provider that can resupply fresh food along the route.



No that’s not an excuse. I’ve had many good quality entree salads on Amtrak. There is no need to resuplly food. Fresh greens don’t spoil in 2 days.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

anumberone said:


> View attachment 18462
> lm not quite sure what this character is saying. Something to do with dinner


This is what it means... "Oh no! Not another flex meal! Yuk! Gag me with a spoon!"


----------



## flitcraft

Nick Farr said:


> I definitely agree that most Amtrak service staff treat passengers like inconvenient cargo....



The expression used in the airline business to describe passengers is "self-loading cargo."


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> No that’s not an excuse. I’ve had many good quality entree salads on Amtrak. There is no need to resuplly food. Fresh greens don’t spoil in 2 days.



Fresh greens dont spoil in 2 days, but prepackaged entree salads will definitely go bad over long distances at different altitudes with sub-par equipment.

It's not the greens, it's how they're packaged/sealed and what they're sealed with. You could store a bag of mixed greens for a few days when salads were prepared fresh--but that's a lot harder to do when salads just get pulled out of the refrigerator where space is at a premium.

I mean, it would work for an entree salad of iceberg lettuce and cherry tomatoes, but who wants that?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Fresh greens dont spoil in 2 days, but prepackaged entree salads will definitely go bad over long distances at different altitudes with sub-par equipment.
> 
> It's not the greens, it's how they're packaged/sealed and what they're sealed with. You could store a bag of mixed greens for a few days when salads were prepared fresh--but that's a lot harder to do when salads just get pulled out of the refrigerator where space is at a premium.
> 
> I mean, it would work for an entree salad of iceberg lettuce and cherry tomatoes, but who wants that?



There is no lack of refrigerator space on Amtrak dining Cars. Why are you making stuff up?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> I mean, it would work for an entree salad of iceberg lettuce and cherry tomatoes, but who wants that?


Nobody. Really! A 3" diameter culinary masterpiece.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Nick Farr said:


> Fresh greens dont spoil in 2 days, but prepackaged entree salads will definitely go bad over long distances at different altitudes with sub-par equipment.
> 
> It's not the greens, it's how they're packaged/sealed and what they're sealed with. You could store a bag of mixed greens for a few days when salads were prepared fresh--but that's a lot harder to do when salads just get pulled out of the refrigerator where space is at a premium.
> 
> I mean, it would work for an entree salad of iceberg lettuce and cherry tomatoes, but who wants that?


If you have ever shopped the deli of Walmart, they have a wide variety of really good packaged salads and they are large enough to feed 2. And they run about $5-6! They have a few days of fridge life as well; so something like that would easily survive the longest Amtrak haul.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

20th Century Rider said:


> But did you ever get a chance to eat the Swanson fried chicken tv dinners? I must have been 6; but just loved them; and I do remember the tastes. I accepted the powdery potatoes because they were so yummy good with the taste of real butter. My respectful disagreement when comparing them to the flex meals.
> 
> But ok... 'calling a spade a spade,' the salisbury steak was not good.
> 
> Compared to the utterly bleak Amtrak flex meals, the Swanson fried chicken dinner scores a 10 while each and every flex meals score a"0"!!! BTW... you can't get a TV dinner today of the same taste and quality. Yum yum yum!
> 
> View attachment 18450
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 18451
> 
> 
> View attachment 18452


YES!!!! Those things were absolute classics! The 4-banger trays with the tiny dessert portion were the ultimate; I only wish I had saved some of the trays. Now if you want to go to the other end of the scale and experience nasty, you would have discovered the Libbyland kid's meals, including Safari Supper, Sundown Supper, Sea Diver's Dinner and Pirate Picnic. They made the slop being served on Amtrak today top shelf!


----------



## Nick Farr

OlympianHiawatha said:


> If you have ever shopped the deli of Walmart, they have a wide variety of really good packaged salads and they are large enough to feed 2. And they run about $5-6! They have a few days of fridge life as well; so something like that would easily survive the longest Amtrak haul.



Those are in a humidity controlled cooler that's not available on the dining car, in larger more specialized packaging--and probably don't sit in there for more than 3 days.

The flex meals can survive the trip from Chicago and back and probably longer than that.

There is probably a way to do prepackaged salads but I'm not sure they could survive in the equipment in the car past the second overnight.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

The equipment didn’t change. Nothing changed. There is absolutely nothing keeping Amtrak from offering an entree salad and/or sandwich option.

I’m certain there is an entree salad that Amtrak can offer that has the same use by date as the side salad and fresh fruit cup. Even the cafe car offers entree salads, or has in the past.


----------



## Sauve850

Nick Farr said:


> How long were the flights? They usually have meals on flights over 1,000 miles but I don't know how COVID changed that.


4 1/2 hours. CTL to SLC is the best example. West Palm Beach to CTL also nothing but thats a 2 hr 600 mile type flight. I was notified in advance. Last leg was SLC to JAC only a 40 minute flight so never anything on that leg.


----------



## Qapla

We should hope Amtrak doesn't decide to use MRE's in the next "upgrade" of the dining fare ...


----------



## me_little_me

OlympianHiawatha said:


> YES!!!! Those things were absolute classics! The 4-banger trays with the tiny dessert portion were the ultimate; I only wish I had saved some of the trays. Now if you want to go to the other end of the scale and experience nasty, you would have discovered the Libbyland kid's meals, including Safari Supper, Sundown Supper, Sea Diver's Dinner and Pirate Picnic. They made the slop being served on Amtrak today top shelf!


Please STOP giving Amtrak new ideas for flex meals. It is very inconsiderate to your fellow AUers.

I can already see Amtrak management faces simultaneously lighting up at the idea yet red in embarrassment at not having thought it up themselves.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

OlympianHiawatha said:


> YES!!!! Those things were absolute classics! The 4-banger trays with the tiny dessert portion were the ultimate; I only wish I had saved some of the trays. Now if you want to go to the other end of the scale and experience nasty, you would have discovered the Libbyland kid's meals, including Safari Supper, Sundown Supper, Sea Diver's Dinner and Pirate Picnic. They made the slop being served on Amtrak today top shelf!


I admit that the libby land adventures and liver loaf meals don't look that great... but really... it's a stretch of the imagination to refer to Amtrak 1st class dining top shelf. If you compare side by side, anything and everything looks more appealing than the tasteless flex meals... but to be fair, you can save the slightly melted plastic carcinogenic plate and use it as a frisbee!
Neat-o! Cool!


----------



## MrNews

The reality is that Amtrak downgraded it's entire dining experience to save money. I assume they operate passenger service at a huge loss, and are striving to cut their losses. Step one: cut the least-used (or biggest loss) routes. Step two: cut staff. Step three: reduce the expense of carrying self-loading cargo. 
Yes, the food is a shadow of its former self, but it's still fun eating while watching the countryside roll by outside large windows. And it's still better than typical airline chow. I will miss the experience I had on my first overnight trip on the Silver Star to NYP ten years ago, enjoying the steak, and having a server who, when I couldn't decide which dessert to have, said "No worries, I'll bring both." {sigh} The good old days are also both.


----------



## Asher

Nick Farr says,
The solution is simple: Get a service provider that can resupply fresh food along the route
I’d agree except, simple only if money is no object. We seem to have a system providing a service we all enjoy, that is running on fumes. I can get by without Caviar or some kind of Chefs Salad created to my personal specifications. We all look for the best deal when planning a trip, I guess it boils down to, if you want to dance to the music you have to pay the piper.
I’ll stick with the Iceberg.


----------



## Willbridge

crescent-zephyr said:


> Even 1 year ago! imagine 10 years from now we will be talking about the good days when you could order any drink and have it served in a real glass when flying. People will look at us as if we had said you used to be able to smoke in an airplane! Ha.


There's an indie movie about post-WWII Dutch mail order brides going to New Zealand. The film has them flying in a beautifully restored KLM prop plane. To further establish the period, the stewardess comes around to offer cigarettes to the passengers. The audience in the small art theater groaned or tittered audibly and there was a lot of whispering as old-timers explained that, yes, airlines used to do that.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

MrNews said:


> The reality is that Amtrak downgraded it's entire dining experience to save money. I assume they operate passenger service at a huge loss, and are striving to cut their losses. Step one: cut the least-used (or biggest loss) routes. Step two: cut staff. Step three: reduce the expense of carrying self-loading cargo.
> Yes, the food is a shadow of its former self, but it's still fun eating while watching the countryside roll by outside large windows. And it's still better than typical airline chow. I will miss the experience I had on my first overnight trip on the Silver Star to NYP ten years ago, enjoying the steak, and having a server who, when I couldn't decide which dessert to have, said "No worries, I'll bring both." {sigh} The good old days are also both.


Amtrak's first class dining experience - daily plan is here. So on the CZ you would get L & D the first day, BLD the second day, and BL the third day. Connecting to the Cardinal? Then you would begin with D on the third day, and BLD the fourth day. Almost similar on the return. Imagine the monotony of it all!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

anumberone said:


> I can get by without Caviar or some kind of Chefs Salad created to my personal specifications. We all look for the best deal when planning a trip, I guess it boils down to, if you want to dance to the music you have to pay the piper.



Nobody is asking for that. I simply said an entree salad should be a choice. Ironically when “contemporary dining” started it was nothing but entree salads.

Anyone looking for the best deal isn’t going to choose an Amtrak sleeping car. Period.


----------



## Asher

CZ said,
Anyone looking for the best deal isn’t going to choose an Amtrak sleeping car. Period! You're correct, I should have said lowest bucket on Amtrak, that's what I'm always looking for. Anyhow, I wasn't referring to your post, I guess it did infringe though. Sorry about that.


----------



## Larry H.

When you consider that some store bought frozen dinners are pretty decent while others to me are not. They why can't they at least buy from the manufacture ones that are decent. We get a Marie Callender chicken with pasta and broccoli that is quite tasty, or some stoffers dinners are very good. Its not rocket science just takes someone who cares about the food who buys it. Evidently that is not a consideration from the few new meals I have had on the City of New Orleans the past couple years. 

Its interesting to read the Dining by Rail book and see all the menus and how they were prepared. Some of them took hours and hours with lots of high carb and high sugar ingredients but they probably tasted wonderful. I have yet to try any of the recipes my self mainly because so many are complicated with lots of ingredients and some things that take a long time to make like sauces ect. Obviously the railroads considered the passengers food experience's to be among the most important way to attract riders. Considering what we now read here that still is true. It would be interesting to know how many once devoted rail travelers have given up on Amtrak, I know I am very close to it.


----------



## Rasputin

Well I haven't given up on Amtrak by any means. I just have no place that I want or need to go while the virus is prevalent. I have "thoughts" of future travel but that is all they are at this point. No plans to travel in the foreseeable future. 

When the virus is no longer prevalent or is under control, I plan to stick my head out of the cave and see what is going on at that time. If Amtrak is back to serving traditional dining I will probably travel by Amtrak long distance trains. If they are serving contemporary dining or flexible dining over multiple days, I will probably go with Southwest Airlines. I can pretty well put up with anything by plane, bus or Acela for a few hours as long as I get to where I want to go relatively quickly.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Nick Farr said:


> You could store a bag of mixed greens for a few days when salads were prepared fresh--but that's a lot harder to do when salads just get pulled out of the refrigerator where space is at a premium. I mean, it would work for an entree salad of iceberg lettuce and cherry tomatoes, but who wants that?


In the past I would have agreed but Amazon and Whole Foods seem to have figured it out. So have several restaurant supply services. Even my meat and pantry-focused regional supermarket gets it right some of the time. About half of their salad kits will last another 3-4 days at home while the other half are already wilting and browning on the store shelf. So far as I can tell the longevity of each kit seems to be specific to the processing plant and/or distribution system rather than the ingredients themselves.


----------



## DCAKen

Nick Farr said:


> How long were the flights? They usually have meals on flights over 1,000 miles but I don't know how COVID changed that.


AA currently only serves meals on flights longer than 4.5 hours or 2,200 miles


----------



## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> In the past I would have agreed but Amazon and Whole Foods seem to have figured it out.


The Amazon Go stores have some very healthy food options that are excellent quality. They are generally meant for the office lunch crowd, so they are packaged for takeaway. It's where I intend to stock up for my next trip out of Chicago since my current diet does not allow processed foods. I really wish that Amtrak would partner with Amazon or a similar company that has shown that takeaway food can be healthy and taste great.


----------



## west point

Pre paying on your ticket for what ever your selection is the best way to operate dining services. If you cancel after the cut off time for odering a meal for your segment then you loose that amount ! Also sell any meals not claimed that a customer did not show up; to anyone desiring to eat that meal !


----------



## tricia

Um, many people DO take trains last-minute. Some even book their tickets AFTER the train has departed its originating station (and supply depot) for a 2 or 3 day run. And what if the train is delayed, adding more meal times? There are many, many travel scenarios that have people on trains finding they need to buy a meal they haven't had a chance to order in advance. There's also the opportunity for Amtrak to make a profit selling those meals along with other food-and-beverage impulse purchases. 

Amtrak will ALWAYS need to be able to feed people decently without expecting passengers to order that food days in advance.


----------



## Nick Farr

Devil's Advocate said:


> In the past I would have agreed but Amazon and Whole Foods seem to have figured it out. So have several restaurant supply services. Even my meat and pantry-focused regional supermarket gets it right some of the time. About half of their salad kits will last another 3-4 days at home while the other half are already wilting and browning on the store shelf. So far as I can tell the longevity of each kit seems to be specific to the processing plant and/or distribution system rather than the ingredients themselves.



I definitely agree that processing and distribution are key. Very large grocery chains and distribution networks that are closer to the farm (i.e. buy entire lots of produce) can fix a lot of these things. But when you add in the processing step of a food caterer who probably sources from a very long food supply chain and tack on making salads for uneven equipment, it becomes a very large challenge to do.

Having worked in Groceries, I can tell you it pretty much comes down to this:

1) Organic or Conventional: Organic produce spoils much more quickly in general than conventional produce. One of the ways we knew certain product was not organic was that it didn't spoil like the rest of its kind. Sometimes they will sub in Organic for Conventional but they're never supposed to do it the other way around. This is one thing that could account for spoilage.

2) Humidity Control: Part of this is the packaging, part of this is the refrigeration unit. Most greens need to breathe AND be kept relatively cold and humid--this is why you put certain produce in paper bags, crispers, etc.

3) Availability of produce: You can get Iceberg Lettuce whenever you want, but most other greens are very seasonal and sometimes they do not play/ship well together. Sometimes produce picked yesterday versus produce picked two weeks ago are lumped together and that can cause/accelerate spoilage.

Could Amtrak have a dinner salad? Absolutely. However, they'd need to upgrade their cooling equipment and/or spend a lot of money on packaging--or just source them every few days along the way.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Could Amtrak have a dinner salad? Absolutely. However, they'd need to upgrade their cooling equipment and/or spend a lot of money on packaging--or just source them every few days along the way.



The exact same refrigerators that Amtrak have always had are still in operation. The entree salad I used to get on the empire builder and coast starlight came prepackaged. Usually it would be served already plated but now and then they would serve it “some assembly required.”


----------



## ehbowen

Devil's Advocate said:


> Who said they loved Amtrak's new TV dinners? The positive commentary I've seen so far has been faint and vaguely worded praise at best. I can understand and agree that there are people who will eat almost anything and/or simply do not care what is served, but what is there to love about these meals? I realize that TV dinners were a big deal back in the 1950's but this is 2020 and I don't eat food that puts my health at risk unless it's worth the fat and calorie hit. That does not included generic precooked leftovers.





Nick Farr said:


> From Lean Cuisine to DEVOUR there's lots of frozen food nuke-it-and-go aficionados. I don't get it either.
> 
> And yes, I had vague "it's not the end of the world" praise for these meals.
> 
> If you look at most of the fast food people eat, from a fat and salt perspective it's not that much better.
> 
> It's not a deal killer for me. It's not what I'd do, but I'm more interested in advocating/exploring alternative solutions than beating a fait accompli to death.





Exvalley said:


> Oh, come on now. The 1970s Swanson salisbury steak and turkey tv dinners with powdered mashed potatoes were definitely not "far superior" to what is served on Amtrak today. Mind you, neither are good - but the 1970s tv dinners were downright awful.
> 
> View attachment 18437





Bob Dylan said:


> Trust me, the 50s TV Dinners ( mostly Swanson)were terrible, just like the swill being slung in Amtrak "Sleeper Lounges " right now!



I know I'm going to incur your scorn for saying this here, but I just came home from the supermarket with half-a-dozen Hungry Man frozen dinners...including two of the dreaded Salisbury Steaks. When you're a bachelor working the graveyard shift you can't afford to be snooty about a hot, filling meal which can be prepared in your microwave at work...and only costs $2.52.


----------



## Bob Dylan

ehbowen said:


> I know I'm going to incur your scorn for saying this here, but I just came home from the supermarket with half-a-dozen Hungry Man frozen dinners...including two of the dreaded Salisbury Steaks. When you're a bachelor working the graveyard shift you can't afford to be snooty about a hot, filling meal which can be prepared in your microwave at work...and only costs $2.52.


I eat them myself, they're 1000 times better than those from the 50s, especially Healthy Choice and Lean Cuisine, and the Local Favorites, HEB Dinners and Night Hawk Steak Dinners.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> There is no lack of refrigerator space on Amtrak dining Cars. Why are you making stuff up?



Tell me exactly what the cooling capacity is on the LD trains and how it didn't change at all with the switch to flex dining.


----------



## fdaley

ehbowen said:


> I know I'm going to incur your scorn for saying this here, but I just came home from the supermarket with half-a-dozen Hungry Man frozen dinners...including two of the dreaded Salisbury Steaks. When you're a bachelor working the graveyard shift you can't afford to be snooty about a hot, filling meal which can be prepared in your microwave at work...and only costs $2.52.



There is a place in the world for the $2.52 Hungry Man dinner, and I don't scorn you or anyone who chooses to eat them. It might even be a bargain for the price. But if I'm going to spend $700 a night for a bedroom for two on Amtrak, I expect to be fed something substantially better. For the same room prices, Amtrak was offering meals that were a lot better until quite recently. And now, if the same four versions of Salisbury steak are the only choices for every lunch and dinner on a three-day cross-country trip (and another three days coming back), and the breakfast isn't even as good as what I could buy at my local convenience store, I'd rather stay home or find another way to travel.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

MrNews said:


> The reality is that Amtrak downgraded it's entire dining experience to save money. I assume they operate passenger service at a huge loss, and are striving to cut their losses. Step one: cut the least-used (or biggest loss) routes. Step two: cut staff. Step three: reduce the expense of carrying self-loading cargo.
> Yes, the food is a shadow of its former self, but it's still fun eating while watching the countryside roll by outside large windows. And it's still better than typical airline chow. I will miss the experience I had on my first overnight trip on the Silver Star to NYP ten years ago, enjoying the steak, and having a server who, when I couldn't decide which dessert to have, said "No worries, I'll bring both." {sigh} The good old days are also both.



I disagree. It is NOT better than most airline food in COACH and if you compare apples with apples (first class Amtrak vs first class air), airline first class food is infinitely better and served attractively as well.


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Bob Dylan said:


> I eat them myself, they're 1000 times better than those from the 50s, especially Healthy Choice and Lean Cuisine, and the Local Favorites, HEB Dinners and Night Hawk Steak Dinners.


Dangerously high sodium, generally unhealthy. Very bad as a regular diet.


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## ehbowen

fdaley said:


> There is a place in the world for the $2.52 Hungry Man dinner, and I don't scorn you or anyone who chooses to eat them. It might even be a bargain for the price. But if I'm going to spend $700 a night for a bedroom for two on Amtrak, I expect to be fed something substantially better. For the same room prices, Amtrak was offering meals that were a lot better until quite recently. And now, if the same four versions of Salisbury steak are the only choices for every lunch and dinner on a three-day cross-country trip (and another three days coming back), and the breakfast isn't even as good as what I could buy at my local convenience store, I'd rather stay home or find another way to travel.


This I can agree with completely. I really miss full service dining. It made the experience worthwhile.

I might tough out a trip under today's regime by my lonesome, but there's no way in hell that I'd repeat the trip I made in September 2016, when I took my parents on a fifteen-day circle tour of the West via _Sunset Limited, City of New Orleans, Empire Builder, Cascades, Coast Starlight, California Zephyr _and_ Texas Eagle._

Edit To Add: The lowlight of that otherwise spectacular trip—and both my parents agreed about this—was the downgraded food service aboard the _CONO. _They were asking, "Why is this train so much worse?"


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## Nick Farr

So, in short, do you believe that with the Flex Dining change Amtrak is saving money and:

1) Trying to attract customers who don't care about the food (and will presumably tolerate further service downgrades)
2) Trying to kill off the LD trains (except for the Auto Train which is presumably profitable)


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## railiner

I believe that Amtrak is simply trying to save money, in order to save its system. I don't believe they are trying to "kill off" any of their trains, even if some in government seem to be wanting that. They are just trying to get by, by whatever means they can, and still offer some 'sustenance', even if it doesn't please the "foodies" complaining about it. 

I enjoyed the full service dining cars, just like everyone else, and hope that some day they can return, or at least better than the current offering, but I would rather have train service, with minimum accommodations, while maintaining the full network, then cutting trains and routes, but offering gourmet food service, if that was the alternatives....JMHO.


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## Nick Farr

railiner said:


> I would rather have train service, with minimum accommodations, while maintaining the full network, then cutting trains and routes, but offering gourmet food service, if that was the alternatives....JMHO.



Same here.

I'm not sure how beating the flex dining horse to death is a good thing for Amtrak as a whole.


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## fdaley

Nick Farr said:


> So, in short, do you believe that with the Flex Dining change Amtrak is saving money and:
> 
> 1) Trying to attract customers who don't care about the food (and will presumably tolerate further service downgrades)
> 2) Trying to kill off the LD trains (except for the Auto Train which is presumably profitable)



I can't tell if they're trying to kill the long-distance trains or if it's just a case of boneheaded management trying to meet the mandate of some members of Congress (or in the case of Mica, former members) who want to kill off the LD trains. But I'm quite sure flex dining is driving away business -- mine and that of many other posters here. I haven't seen any evidence of a significant effort to attract new customers.

I also question whether this project is really saving money. Of course there are many customers, perhaps a majority, who don't mind or will put up with it. But if 10 percent or 20 percent of Amtrak's previous pool of sleeper customers simply go away, the lost revenue might completely offset the entire "savings" of switching to flex dining. And if 40 percent of sleeper customers quit traveling or greatly reduce their travel on Amtrak, it will be a huge negative. It also appears to be driving away coach travelers who previously had the option of sit-down meal service and now have nothing but the cafe (and in some cases, such as the Lake Shore between NYC and Albany, nothing at all).

Now, there may be creative ways to feed us all something palatable without the full cost and work force of a traditional dining car -- witness the reports/photos from some European trains in the posts above. But with flex dining, it's like Amtrak isn't even trying. It has the feeling of a cost-cutting program dreamt up by managers who never actually use their company's service.

I want the long-distance trains to survive. But I want them to survive with a level of on-board experience that I'd actually want to use -- and that I could in good conscience recommend to others. With flex dining, I can't do either.


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## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> So, in short, do you believe that with the Flex Dining change Amtrak is saving money and:
> 
> 1) Trying to attract customers who don't care about the food (and will presumably tolerate further service downgrades)
> 2) Trying to kill off the LD trains (except for the Auto Train which is presumably profitable)



3) Cutting the food costs down to the bare minimum, in the easiest way possible without actually understanding how the long distance trains operate, and not understanding their customers. 

The argument that there are customers to attract that want to pay $1,000 a room and be given a TV dinner is laughable.


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## Ferroequinologist

crescent-zephyr said:


> 3) Cutting the food costs down to the bare minimum, in the easiest way possible without actually understanding how the long distance trains operate, and not understanding their customers.
> 
> The argument that there are customers to attract that want to pay $1,000 a room and be given a TV dinner is laughable.



Look, they started out with half way decent frozen food and then downgraded that to garbage. They don't care. It's very frustrating when you come across someone who is totally unreasonable and unwilling or incapable of empathy, mutual understanding or even compromise. Amtrak, management, is like that person.


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## west point

tricia said:


> Um, many people DO take trains last-minute. Some even book their tickets AFTER the train has departed its originating station (and supply depot) for a 2 or 3 day run. And what if the train is delayed, adding more meal times? There are many, many travel scenarios that have people on trains finding they need to buy a meal they haven't had a chance to order in advance. There's also the opportunity for Amtrak to make a profit selling those meals along with other food-and-beverage impulse purchases.
> 
> Amtrak will ALWAYS need to be able to feed people decently without expecting passengers to order that food days in advance.



You missed a point of my posts. Amtrak should not just board meals at originating stations. For example if I book ATL - WASH at 0800 today and cut off time for ATL is 1200 then ATL would be able to board a meal I paid for. In my airline expeerience caters get a preliminary bookings a day ahead with a final count about 4 hours before departure. Catering truck is loaded with several flights . Then at expected arrival time truck leaves about 30 minutes + driving time before arrival of first aircraft in their truck.


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## ehbowen

west point said:


> You missed a point of my posts. Amtrak should not just board meals at originating stations. For example if I book ATL - WASH at 0800 today and cut off time for ATL is 1200 then ATL would be able to board a meal I paid for. In my airline expeerience caters get a preliminary bookings a day ahead with a final count about 4 hours before departure. Catering truck is loaded with several flights . Then at expected arrival time truck leaves about 30 minutes + driving time before arrival of first aircraft in their truck.



First off...which company is going to keep a driver and a truck on standby for one train a day which can arrive anywhere inside (or sometimes even outside) of a four-hour window? Not Amtrak...it'd be cheaper to staff and stock the dining car properly. An airline catering business? The few decent ones that are left (and I mean full service meals) probably don't have a great interest in, once again, servicing one train a day especially if it means that their driver has to leave airport property and navigate city traffic. And I think you'd have a hard time finding an airport caterer willing and able to prepare full service meals outside of major hubs. Restocking the _Southwest Chief_ in Trinidad, Colorado? Good luck.

I know you mentioned local restaurants, but it's not a simple task to switch from cooking one or two meals at a time to cooking on the assembly line for a crowded _Zephyr_ which might have, say, four hundred passengers. And, if you did, your business would be completely dependent upon Amtrak—what do you expect your putative caterer in Grand Junction to do if the train is annulled for an extended period due to a major washout? And how will the train be supplied for the month that it's traveling on the UP main through Cheyenne?

If we had multiple frequencies per day, consistent timekeeping, and the trains ran through well-populated areas as in Europe or India I'd say to revisit the idea. But given the layout of this country and our insistence on running on a shoestring both in terms of frequency and service I really can't think of a better solution than a properly staffed and stocked full service dining car. There's a reason it worked for well over a century.


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## Qapla

It has been mentioned that those in charge of Amtrak may not even ride the trains ... do you think any of those in charge have ever eaten the meals?

How do you think they would respond if their next meeting was served the meals they are serving on the trains? (Not counting what is served on the AT) Especially if they were served these same meals all week long!


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## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> The argument that there are customers to attract that want to pay $1,000 a room and be given a TV dinner is laughable.



There absolutely are customers who will pay $1k and more for the views alone.

Add to that the overall novel experience, the privacy and the safety over flying across the country during a pandemic.

These passengers simply don't care about the food.

I had almost all the flex dining meals. I've definitely had way worse on road trips and in truck stop diners.


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## lordsigma

Nick Farr said:


> There absolutely are customers who will pay $1k and more for the views alone.
> 
> Add to that the overall novel experience, the privacy and the safety over flying across the country during a pandemic.
> 
> These passengers simply don't care about the food.
> 
> I had almost all the flex dining meals. I've definitely had way worse on road trips and in truck stop diners.


If you don't like/can't fly and don't want to drive it's still a good choice and even with no food is infinitely better than Greyhound. As I have stated many times I am a millennial and never had dining car food in its heyday so its probably part of why I don't see this is as much of an issue as many. I have had the traditional dining - while it is superior to the flex dining and I hope it does return after the pandemic (along with the Acela first class meals which have not been discussed as much on this forum but have also had a major downgrade), it was Cracker Barrel quality food at best. Not horrible but not fine dining. I enjoyed the social dining experience but there's also nothing stopping me from going to the lounge after the pandemic. I am cautiously optimistic that a more full food service will return to at least some western trains (but this is Amtrak don't hold me to it) after the pandemic. But to me railroad travel is about the views, seeing corners of our country you can't otherwise see and the escape from the stresses of life and the ability to lie back in my sleeper and watch the world go by out my window or from the lounge and yes the social interaction with strangers. The downgraded meals are an annoyance, but don't stop me from doing what draws me to taking the train (along with my dislike of flying.)


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## jiml

Nick Farr said:


> I had almost all the flex dining meals. I've definitely had way worse on road trips and in truck stop diners.


...and on airplanes. People seem to forget how bad airline food got a few years ago. It started a downward slide after 9-11 and bottomed out before beginning a more recent recovery. At one point before buy-on-board started up, coach passengers got nothing on a domestic flight of any length and FC was really bad unless flying on long-haul international. The reviews are easily found on forums like Flyertalk and AirlineMeals.net. To most airlines' credit the trend was reversing until Covid19. Now all bets are off with airlines hovering near bankruptcy. VIA Rail's only currently-operating LD passenger train with sleepers and two overnights offers "a snack and a bottle of water" with nothing else available even for purchase. Could Amtrak do better than what is currently offered? Certainly, but it could also be much, much worse.


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## Rasputin

I have always enjoyed traveling by train but I am not about to spend $1000 plus on a long distance multiple-day Amtrak trip and receive pathetic food and service. I will gladly fly at a fraction of the cost and have more money to spend at my destination. And I don't really care whether the airline gives me any food or drink since it normally is a flight for only a few hours and I can eat before I board or at my destination.


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## Dakota 400

jiml said:


> The reviews are easily found on forums like Flyertalk and AirlineMeals.net.



You are correct about that. The reviews on AirlineMeals.net made for interesting reading. I really do think the bottom of the barrel was reached when one could pick up a bagged meal from a cooler as one entered the jetway.


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## jiml

Dakota 400 said:


> You are correct about that. The reviews on AirlineMeals.net made for interesting reading. I really do think the bottom of the barrel was reached when one could pick up a bagged meal from a cooler as one entered the jetway.


The infamous AA Bistro Bag.


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## tgstubbs1

Rasputin said:


> I have always enjoyed traveling by train but I am not about to spend $1000 plus on a long distance multiple-day Amtrak trip and receive pathetic food and service. I will gladly fly at a fraction of the cost and have more money to spend at my destination. And I don't really care whether the airline gives me any food or drink since it normally is a flight for only a few hours and I can eat before I board or at my destination.



True. A multi day train trip is more similar to a ocean going cruise than a short plane ride. 

On most cruises there is luxury cuisine but on a ferry trip or if you travel on a cargo ship you get more everyday type food service. I understand on a cargo ship passengers usually eat with the crew, which is probably ample but kind of what they serve in a factory cafeteria.


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## Dakota 400

jiml said:


> The infamous AA Bistro Bag.



Maybe that is one reason I preferred flying on Delta afterwards?


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## tgstubbs1

I have been on very short flights that served something, which has surprised me more than once. Usually I will get something at the airport before boarding anyway, so if I get a snack or wrap, small sandwich, whatever, I'm ok with that. 

They started serving food on airlines to keep people occupied, and a little distracted, because so many people were afraid of flying. It became a major selling point in the '60s because regulation fares meant competing airlines were otherwise selling the exact same thing for the exact same price. 
Now they have budget airlines with budget prices charging for cokes and peanuts, or charters without any real service at all. Less hassle for the airlines and more efficient use of space on the plane than a galley. Plenty of options at the food courts at the airport so you can get whatever kind of food you want. 

Trains need a way to actually feed people three squares a day on LD trains.


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## ehbowen

tgstubbs1 said:


> They started serving food on airlines to keep people occupied, and a little distracted, because so many people were afraid of flying. It became a major selling point in the '60s because regulation fares meant competing airlines were otherwise selling the exact same thing for the exact same price.



Keep in mind, also, that the nascent airlines in the '30s and '40s were competing against the very mature passenger rail network in which 'loss-leader' premium food service was essentially a given. These days, when the wheel has turned...what is Amtrak competing against? Peanuts and a third of a Coke?


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## crescent-zephyr

ehbowen said:


> These days, when the wheel has turned...what is Amtrak competing against? Peanuts and a third of a Coke?



For me Amtrak is competing against a gin and tonic (or 2  ) and either a quality snack like a cheese and fruit plate, warmed nuts, or a complete meal if the flight is long enough to justify it. (Of course Covid has changed the airline service as well..)

September 14 -
Amtrak Chicago to LAX via Amtrak Roomette = $623
Airlines Chicago to LAX via Coach = $75 (AA and United)
Airlines Chicago to LAX via 1st Class = $358 United non-stop or $297 American with one stop.


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## ehbowen

crescent-zephyr said:


> For me Amtrak is competing against a gin and tonic (or 2  ) and either a quality snack like a cheese and fruit plate, warmed nuts, or a complete meal if the flight is long enough to justify it. (Of course Covid has changed the airline service as well..)
> 
> September 14 -
> Amtrak Chicago to LAX via Amtrak Roomette = $623
> Airlines Chicago to LAX via Coach = $75 (AA and United)
> Airlines Chicago to LAX via 1st Class = $358 United non-stop or $297 American with one stop.



Well, I've taken exactly one R/T nonstop flight (IAH-ORF-IAH, Continental, Sep 2009) and one two-leg one way flight (FCA-SEA; 3 day layover; SEA-IAH; Alaska Air, March 2014) since 9/11. On the former I got a small snack pack each way; on the latter nothing at all that I can recall. After the Continental flight I exchanged my OnePass miles (which had been accumulating since 1985) for AGR points; good trade!


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## tgstubbs1

I guess they just want to sustain you til the end of the flight, then you can keel over!

I remember a menu with snacks on a flight, Gardettos and stuff like that. Nothing really substantial though.


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## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> I have always enjoyed traveling by train but I am not about to spend $1000 plus on a long distance multiple-day Amtrak trip and receive pathetic food and service. I will gladly fly at a fraction of the cost and have more money to spend at my destination. And I don't really care whether the airline gives me any food or drink since it normally is a flight for only a few hours and I can eat before I board or at my destination.


All fine and good if you like flying and prefer air travel absent the food. I guess all of us that won't fly are somewhat a captive audience.


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## Chicoan

I hope that some of you with long memories would help me with this: in discussing the current food-and-drink status with a friend, a memory popped up of drinking REALLY bad wine on Amtrak years ago. It would have been out west, possibly on CA-supported trains or LD. The wine I believe was from Chile. I had it a few times, and recall thnking it was so bad that there had to be some kind of contractual malfeasance  Anyone remember this, especially about what years it was?


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## lordsigma

lordsigma said:


> All fine and good if you like flying and prefer air travel absent the food. I guess all of us that won't fly are somewhat a captive audience.


Don't get me wrong though - while I may be a captive audience not everyone is and for those prospective new riders looking for an experience the downgraded dining will undoubtedly turn away some. Cracker Barrel food is still better than a TV dinner.


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## Willbridge

Chicoan said:


> I hope that some of you with long memories would help me with this: in discussing the current food-and-drink status with a friend, a memory popped up of drinking REALLY bad wine on Amtrak years ago. It would have been out west, possibly on CA-supported trains or LD. The wine I believe was from Chile. I had it a few times, and recall thinking it was so bad that there had to be some kind of contractual malfeasance  Anyone remember this, especially about what years it was?


I think this happened several times on the _Coast Starlight. _I remember a SLM>KFS business trip before Superliners. Outside the window were some of the most wonderful food crops growing. Inside the train were plastic packages from Back East and I promised myself that when we got going on Willamette Valley trains we'd have some regional items. My successors succeeded in that. Amtrak meals have gone up and down over the five decades since, reaching new depths recently.


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## Ferroequinologist

Rasputin said:


> I have always enjoyed traveling by train but I am not about to spend $1000 plus on a long distance multiple-day Amtrak trip and receive pathetic food and service. I will gladly fly at a fraction of the cost and have more money to spend at my destination. And I don't really care whether the airline gives me any food or drink since it normally is a flight for only a few hours and I can eat before I board or at my destination.



RIGHT. You cannot compare a trip of a few hours with a trip of several days. Sorry. Food DOES make a major difference on a LD train.


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## Ferroequinologist

jiml said:


> ...and on airplanes. People seem to forget how bad airline food got a few years ago. It started a downward slide after 9-11 and bottomed out before beginning a more recent recovery. At one point before buy-on-board started up, coach passengers got nothing on a domestic flight of any length and FC was really bad unless flying on long-haul international. The reviews are easily found on forums like Flyertalk and AirlineMeals.net. To most airlines' credit the trend was reversing until Covid19. Now all bets are off with airlines hovering near bankruptcy. VIA Rail's only currently-operating LD passenger train with sleepers and two overnights offers "a snack and a bottle of water" with nothing else available even for purchase. Could Amtrak do better than what is currently offered? Certainly, but it could also be much, much worse.



VIA Rail has discontinued dining cars on its LD trains?


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## jiml

Ferroequinologist said:


> VIA Rail has discontinued dining cars on its LD trains?


VIA is currently operating only two of its long distance trains - the Skeena didn't have a dining car pre-Covid and the Winnipeg-Churchill service is operating without one. They state the following: "A modified meal service will be in place. All passengers will receive a complimentary snack and water. No other food or beverage service will be offered and passengers with food restrictions are being asked to plan accordingly."


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## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> All fine and good if you like flying and prefer air travel absent the food. I guess all of us that won't fly are somewhat a captive audience.


I never said that I liked flying or preferred air travel. I have many times gone way out of my way to travel by train when it would have been much easier to fly. But the current sleeping car rates and food offerings do not represent good value for me especially for a multi-day long distance trip. 

I had reservations (since cancelled) this year for Boston to the west coast and I was prepared to tolerate the food on the Lake Shore as a sort of penance one had to pay in order to reach the much more decent western trains. However now once you reach the western trains the food is no better and reports of poor service abound. I am just waiting to see how this and the virus all shake out before making further plans.


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## Sidney

I have taken two circle trips this summer and another coming up next month. Of course I am dissapointed with the flex dining,but not enough to deter me from traveling. Only positive of all of this is that we don't have to sit with strangers at every meal and sometimes force conversation.The opposite of social distancing was seating four strangers to one table. I hope that never returns.

On my trips leaving from Pa.I do Coach to and from Chicago and roomettes out of Chi. The guarantee of both seats to yourself makes that option viable.

Why can't sandwiches and cafe car food be served alongside the flex meals? A little variety on a two or three night trip would certainly be welcome.Amtrak must be aware of the almost total negative response to flex dining. Why don't they implement this simple solution during these times?



















s


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## dlagrua

The flex meals may be OK for a single meal on an overnight but try eating them for three days as we did the past week and you will get sick to your stomach. The highlight of the trip was when they ran out of these TV dinners and the cafe attendant made us Cheese burgers. They were as good as the lunch options of the past. Amtrak management needs to realize that train travel is not airline travel. They cannot compete on travel times so they need to market the service by offering better amenities.


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## 20th Century Rider

With things as they are with the pandemic there may be an upside for rail travelers wanting the view with the rolling wheels under them. Intentionally left half empty coach seating provides more comfort... at a fraction of the sleeper fare. The controversial 'food service' becomes a non-issue because you're not paying for it; you bring your own and/or make your selection at the cafe car if you want something hot. And don't forget to stock up at the Pret a Manger take outs in the East for high quality healthy meals.  

Downside... wearing that mask and shared potties.

Compromise? You could take the CZ in short segments and stop in places like Reno and Denver to enjoy the local amenities; doing that with a sleeper would incur segment pricing which would be prohibitive. Other LD trains also stop at historic or scenic places along the way.

But... the pandemic makes things more challenging. It's all 'give and take.'


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## 20th Century Rider

dlagrua said:


> The flex meals may be OK for a single meal on an overnight but try eating them for three days as we did the past week and you will get sick to your stomach. The highlight of the trip was when they ran out of these TV dinners and the cafe attendant made us Cheese burgers. They were as good as the lunch options of the past. Amtrak management needs to realize that train travel is not airline travel. They cannot compete on travel times so they need to market the service by offering better amenities.


You are so right! When you are on the train for several days your diet and eating take on significance... and substandard unhealthy food for so many days is offensive to the passenger. When a cheeseburger becomes a 'relief' that says something for the controversial and cheep eats they've shoed in!

Of course there's an exception! [I'd always have mine with bacon and cheese... and a side of guacamole! 'Extra red onions please!]


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## fdaley

dlagrua said:


> Amtrak management needs to realize that train travel is not airline travel. They cannot compete on travel times so they need to market the service by offering better amenities.



This is really a crucial point. Amtrak's current crop of managers, whose experience is mostly in the airline business, are approaching this as though long-distance trains were comparable to very long flights. But the market for long-distance train travel is completely different, with lots of travelers who are choosing this mode partly or mostly for the experience, not because it's the quickest or cheapest way from A to B. By thoroughly degrading the onboard experience, Amtrak is driving away that substantial chunk of travelers.

In my own case, I haven't been on a plane since 1990, so basically all of my travel outside the Northeast for the past three decades has been by rail. Now, if I really need to get somewhere, I'm looking at the plane in a new light: If I have to put up with lousy food or no food, at least the plane ride will be over relatively quickly. But lots of travel ultimately is optional, so in a lot more cases -- family vacations, for example -- we'll probably choose to stay in the Northeast or just stay home if Amtrak doesn't restore something approaching full-service dining. Or perhaps if Via Rail resumes normal operation when the pandemic is over, we'll take the Canadian and rent a car when we get to the West Coast.


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## 20th Century Rider

Willbridge said:


> I think this happened several times on the _Coast Starlight. _I remember a SLM>KFS business trip before Superliners. Outside the window were some of the most wonderful food crops growing. Inside the train were plastic packages from Back East and I promised myself that when we got going on Willamette Valley trains we'd have some regional items. My successors succeeded in that. Amtrak meals have gone up and down over the five decades since, reaching new depths recently.


The Willamette valley grows pears, hazelnuts, vineyards for the many wineries that are here... Oregon has many scenic regions as well... the famous coastline, the mountains, and the deserts. We are also famous for covered bridges such as the one you get a glimpse of on approach to EUG. The Coast Starlight provides some magnificent views of this amazing state!


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## Dakota 400

20th Century Rider said:


> You are so right! When you are on the train for several days your diet and eating take on significance... and substandard unhealthy food for so many days is offensive to the passenger. When a cheeseburger becomes a 'relief' that says something for the controversial and cheep eats they've shoed in!
> 
> Of course there's an exception! [I'd always have mine with bacon and cheese... and a side of guacamole! 'Extra red onions please!]
> 
> View attachment 18526
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 18527



I have eaten burgers on Amtrak a few times. The potato chips in your bottom picture appear to be Kettle Chips as compared to the chips in the top photo. I remember being served that type of chips and have always thought that they were the lowest possible quality of potato chip.


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## west point

Why is it when the oponents of dining service alway bring up the end points when only 10 - 20 % travelers go end to end ? The exception is the Capitol which has the highest end to end at about 50%. Examine fares from east timbuckto to west podunk. Airline fares are going to go way up if available at all as AA anounces discontinuation of essential servies Oct 1. Amtrak Fares are high too but when you have to go to a major aiirport to major airport enroute times compare better and also expenses. When people travel to lesser stations food becomes a problem to get anything worth eaating.


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## crescent-zephyr

west point said:


> when only 10 - 20 % travelers go end to end ?



Are the counting someone that rides the Zephyr from Chicago to Riverside as not going “end to end”? 

what about New Orleans to Newark NJ on the crescent?


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## John Santos

ehbowen said:


> [...]And I think you'd have a hard time finding an airport caterer willing and able to prepare full service meals outside of major hubs. Restocking the _Southwest Chief_ in Trinidad, Colorado? Good luck.[...]


I would think they would restock the Chief in Kansas City and Albuquerque, and the other routes at the appropriate major cities.

I also don't think the delays, unless they are extreme, are a major issue. If the restocking occurs at a staffed station (which is likely because the staffed stations are mostly in major cities that also have airline hubs and caterers), they could install a large refrigerator in the station, and if the train is late, the catering truck would just unload into the fridge, lock it up and leave. The on-board crew, perhaps with the assistance of the station staff, would load the train when it arrives. Walk-in refrigerators, such as those at any medium or large grocery store, could easily accommodate wheeled carts. The catering truck would just unload the entire carts and roll them into the fridge. When the train arrives, the carts could be rolled directly into the diner (if it has room), using a wheelchair lift if necessary, or they could be rolled up next to the train to transfer the trays of food. (Big trays about 3 feet square, holding many items, not individual meal trays.)

This is probably what they already do at the trains' originating station (LAX, CUS, NYP) or in the nearby yards where they prep the trains (Sunnyside, etc.) I think the goal would be to have fresher meals and not to have to store so many meals for up to 3 days on the train. I don't think the goal would be to offload the kitchen facilities so all the hot meals were prepared just-in-time at some midpoint in the journey. (If they want to do that, then just bring back the Harvey Houses, and stop the trains for 3 meals a day while everyone eats in a real restaurant.)

Many very high quality restaurants prepare much of their food in advance, refrigerating it or keeping it warm, and only cook the things that can't keep at the time the meal is ordered. All the breads, cakes and pies are baked early in the day, the vegetables for salads and sides are cleaned, sliced and refrigerated until needed, soups, sauces, etc. are cooked, refrigerated and warmed on demand, etc. All this would be done at the caterers, and delivered ready to be heated (if necessary) and served, and would rival the best restaurants if done competently and using high-quality ingredients. Only the main entrees would suffer by not being cooked from scratch in the diner, but they could and should still be of much higher quality than any TV dinner, certainly as good or better than any mid-level popular chain restaurant. If the meals were selected for being able to tolerate this treatment (e.g. no souffles or other fussy concoctions), they could be quite good. Also, there is nothing about this preparation method that forces the use of excessive salt or sugar in the recipes. And good ingredients are only a minor component of meal cost. Most of the cost is in the labor to prepare it, which is basically the same no matter what the recipe or quality.


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## west point

If the same airline warming ovens and refrigeration units were used they could be transferred to Amtrak trains. often on an airline the ovens and frig units would be a different airline's ontainers . They are all interhangeable so why invent a different wheel when they have worked for many years.


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## Ferroequinologist

Sidney said:


> I have taken two circle trips this summer and another coming up next month. Of course I am dissapointed with the flex dining,but not enough to deter me from traveling. Only positive of all of this is that we don't have to sit with strangers at every meal and sometimes force conversation.The opposite of social distancing was seating four strangers to one table. I hope that never returns.
> 
> On my trips leaving from Pa.I do Coach to and from Chicago and roomettes out of Chi. The guarantee of both seats to yourself makes that option viable.
> 
> Why can't sandwiches and cafe car food be served alongside the flex meals? A little variety on a two or three night trip would certainly be welcome.Amtrak must be aware of the almost total negative response to flex dining. Why don't they implement this simple solution during these times?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHY DON'T THEY? Because they don't care.
> 
> s


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## crescent-zephyr

John Santos said:


> I would think they would restock the Chief in Kansas City and Albuquerque, and the other routes at the appropriate major cities.
> 
> I also don't think the delays, unless they are extreme, are a major issue.



Yes I agree. The Empire Builder used to load meals in Montana (the big sky chicken dinners), Breakfast for the Westbound Portland Section, and Dinner for the Eastbound Section in Portland (the dinners in Portland come from a caterer). 

I've also worked many mainline excursions that arranged for outside catering companies to serve a meal on a train. It can be done. 

The best solution is to have a chef on the train. Cut the servers and the table service, but keep the chef.


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## lordsigma

Rasputin said:


> I never said that I liked flying or preferred air travel. I have many times gone way out of my way to travel by train when it would have been much easier to fly. But the current sleeping car rates and food offerings do not represent good value for me especially for a multi-day long distance trip.


Fair enough you are probably the smart one - there are certainly disadvantages to being a captive audience - I'm probably willing to take any slop they give me to eat. Sadly my fear of flying forces me. While food is not the overwhelming thing that attracts me to riding in a sleeper, I do see why the cuts are annoying and make some people think long and hard if they are wiling to fly as an alternative (even if its not ones' favorite form of travel.)


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## Steve4031

I just completed a round trip on 27/28 to PDX. The Diner crews really did their best with dinner. They heat the dinner roll and tried to heat the spaghetti with Pasta properly. There is a second dessert (pudding iirc) but I kind of like the blondie. They took dinner reservations like normal. But no community seating. 

I ate cheeseburgers for lunch from the lounge car. On the return on 28 I was informed that I could get complementary pop from the lounge car. The person working there said this practice was less than two weeks old. I think this only applies to the Empire Builder since the PDX sleeper is so far from the diner.


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## crescent-zephyr

Steve4031 said:


> There is a second dessert (pudding iirc)



Probably the gluten free pudding from the old menu. I wish they would offer that (or another gf dessert) as standard with the contemporary menu. 

Glad you had a good crew. The EB usually takes pride in their service I’ve noticed.


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## lordsigma

Did the builder have both the previous flex menu items and the new items from the recent refresh? Seemed like they were providing all the options on the western trains and only the refreshed menu on the eastern with the beef and pasta options carried over (With pasta no longer labeled a kids meal).


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## lordsigma

I will have my first flex dining "experience" in October on the silver service. Any recommendations for the least offensive? I was thinking maybe the pasta one way and the shrimp and lobster sauce the other way. My next LD trip after that is my long awaited cross country trip in June......while food isn't the be all and end all for me it obviously would be nice if traditional dining returned by then.


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## Rasputin

lordsigma said:


> I will have my first flex dining "experience" in October on the silver service. Any recommendations for the least offensive? I was thinking maybe the pasta one way and the shrimp and lobster sauce the other way. My next LD trip after that is my long awaited cross country trip in June......while food isn't the be all and end all for me it obviously would be nice if traditional dining returned by then.


Hope your trip goes well and that you have time to give us a full report!


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## Sidney

I enjoy the Shrimp in Lobster sauce the best. The pasta and beef offerings are awful. For the most part the dinner roll is the best part of the meal. please Amtrak...provide some alternatives if flex dining is here to stay and I feel it is.


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## Qapla

Why do they call it "flex" dining when the menu nor the meals are flexible?

Can I get the shrimp without the lobster sauce, for instance?


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## Sidney

When flexible dining was introduced almost two years ago,the term meant you could eat at any time,hence the word "flexible" It has nothing to do with the food. on the many trains I have been on you are still assigned a time to go to the diner or have the attendant bring it to you. Hardly flexible.


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## Devil's Advocate

Sidney said:


> When flexible dining was introduced almost two years ago,the term meant you could eat at any time,hence the word "flexible" It has nothing to do with the food. on the many trains I have been on you are still assigned a time to go to the diner or have the attendant bring it to you. Hardly flexible.


They also worded it like the new "flexible" meals were now available for delivery to your own room as if that hadn't been possible for decades previously.


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## Nick Farr

lordsigma said:


> I will have my first flex dining "experience" in October on the silver service. Any recommendations for the least offensive? I was thinking maybe the pasta one way and the shrimp and lobster sauce the other way. My next LD trip after that is my long awaited cross country trip in June......while food isn't the be all and end all for me it obviously would be nice if traditional dining returned by then.



Try both the shrimp dishes. Spaghetti and meatballs are a good third option.

I think the total elimination of an LD route is more likely than traditional dining's return.


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## fdaley

Sidney said:


> When flexible dining was introduced almost two years ago,the term meant you could e
> at at any time,hence the word "flexible" It has nothing to do with the food. on the many trains I have been on you are still assigned a time to go to the diner or have the attendant bring it to you. Hardly flexible.



The funny thing is that Amtrak claims it has survey data showing this is what people wanted. I'm sure I filled out more than one Amtrak survey form over the years in which I checked boxes that (I thought) indicated I wanted the dining car to be open for more hours, with a wider selection of offerings and more flexibility such as the opportunity to order, say, a late breakfast at lunchtime. Certainly there was no question that asked "Would you like to do away with table service and chef-prepared meals and replace them with prepackaged meals heated up and served in their containers?"

When Amtrak moved to slash its food costs, supposedly to comply with a congressional directive, they decided to take the "flexibility" customers had requested in surveys and try to market the change as an improvement when in fact it was a huge downgrade. But of course, the hours of service are about the same as before, the menu choices are many fewer, the food is of much lower quality, and the meal portions are smaller.

With traditional dining, I used to pack in rather more food in a day than I would at home, so I often left the train feeling a bit stuffed. Well, we don't need to worry about that problem anymore. On my last trip on 48, the breakfast was so meager that I was hungry an hour later. The lunch offerings were too depressing, so I passed. When I got off at Albany, I drove to Cracker Barrel, had a big brunch, and vowed that would be my last ride on the Lake Shore unless something improves.


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## Nick Farr

lordsigma said:


> I will have my first flex dining "experience" in October on the silver service. Any recommendations for the least offensive? I was thinking maybe the pasta one way and the shrimp and lobster sauce the other way. My next LD trip after that is my long awaited cross country trip in June......while food isn't the be all and end all for me it obviously would be nice if traditional dining returned by then.



I also reviewed most of them in this thread:





__





Flexible dining - Requesting a review from a recent rider


I have found leftovers from Flexible Dining dinner in the luggage storage area in my sleeping car room. And I was so hungry after Flexible Dining dinner that I ate the leftovers (brownies still in plastic wrappers). They must have been placed there by the Flexible Dining Fairy. If you leave a...



www.amtraktrains.com


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## Qapla

I thought maybe it was called "flex" because the plastic plates/dishes/trays (whatever you call those things they heat and serve it on) are flexible


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## tgstubbs1

I thought flex meant you could choose. A lot of airlines don't give you any choice at all, for example.


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## Nick Farr

It was called Flex Dining because it was a one consonant word that sounded good and had a vague but positive associations.


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## fdaley

Moved this discussion from another thread to here as the topic fits better here:



MARC Rider said:


> Of course most sleeper passenger are traveling overnight, but they're a small percentage of the total passengers.



When I look at the data from FY19, sleeper passengers represent about 15 percent of travelers on the long-distance network. But they account for 41 percent of revenue, or about $190 million for the year.



MARC Rider said:


> We really don't know how much it costs to provide traditional sleeping car and dining car service, and its possible that it's not as ruinously expensive as the anti-LD people say it is. However, if Amtrak can cut the cost of providing the premium service and not lose that many riders, they'll rake in even more net revenue, thus possibly reducing the need for a taxpayer subsidy for the coach service, which is where most of the ridership is.



This is certainly the approach Amtrak is taking: Cut the costs and hope that most riders will think it's OK or at least put up with it if they want to travel by train. And by all accounts many riders are willing to tolerate it. But if you look at the amount of revenue sleeper customers provide, it wouldn't take that much loss of ridership for the change to have a negative impact. My very rough guess, based on what few figures I have seen from Amtrak, is that the company is saving about $20 million a year by switching to flex meals systemwide. So if 15 percent of the sleeper customers are so offended that they quit riding altogether, the lost revenue (15 percent of $190 million = $28.5 million) would completely wipe out the cost savings from flex dining. Or if, more plausibly, 8 percent of sleeper travelers quit riding and another 25 percent decide to travel half as often because of the change, the result could be a net loss. Keep in mind too that the sleeper travelers who are most likely to be offended are those who are traveling the longest distances -- and who therefore contribute the most revenue.

If anyone has better numbers, please bring them to the discussion.


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## Griffin T. Murphey DDS

I apologize for jumping in with a random question but died anyone happen to know what meals they are serving on the Empire Builder right now? Cooked to order, flexible dining, or box lunches?


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## Sidney

flex dining all trains.


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## Griffin T. Murphey DDS

Griffin T. Murphey DDS said:


> I apologize for jumping in with a random question but died anyone happen to know what meals they are serving on the Empire Builder right now? Cooked to order, flexible dining, or box lunches?


Thank you. Microwaved junk. I’d as soon eat from the cafe car... sigh.


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## crescent-zephyr

At least for breakfast you can fill up on cereal, yogurt, and fruit. You can actually get pretty close to the “continental” breakfast plate from the full diner menu. 

For lunch and dinner... cafe has better options for me but you might as well order one of the dishes and see if it’s to your liking. The shrimp and sausage rice bowl isn’t great but it was ok and didn’t taste like spoonfuls of salt like the beef dish did. 

Still... cheese and cracker tray, hummus, and salad from the cafe menu is what I’d be going for if I ever take a multi day trip. (I can eat 1 or 2 flex meals if I have to...).


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## Nick Farr

fdaley said:


> When I look at the data from FY19, sleeper passengers represent about 15 percent of travelers on the long-distance network. But they account for 41 percent of revenue, or about $190 million for the year.



You have to preface this by saying that the 85% of those travelers pretty much make up the bulk of why the LD network is supported in Congress. Mr. Big Shot Ottumwa, IA and thousands like him keep donating to their congressional delegation as long as the train keeps stopping there.



> This is certainly the approach Amtrak is taking: Cut the costs and hope that most riders will think it's OK or at least put up with it if they want to travel by train. And by all accounts many riders are willing to tolerate it. But if you look at the amount of revenue sleeper customers provide, it wouldn't take that much loss of ridership for the change to have a negative impact.



The missing assumption behind your numbers is that all that sleeper business is repeat business--which it is not. I wish I could find the data source, but not even 30% of the passenger mileage on Amtrak in sleepers is repeat business. You'd need to find data saying that a third of the repeat customer passengers will never travel again because of the food before you hit the cost savings numbers you're using.

Especially with COVID, the passengers who are most likely to be put off by the food are probably not going to travel. With the service cuts, they'll be replaced by those who either are going on their bucket list trip or don't mind the food.

Finally, the real savings Amtrak is trying to achieve are in cutting staff and trimming down equipment costs.

Even the gorgeous meals your see on trains in Europe are still just frozen or refrigerated, heated up and plated.


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## fdaley

Nick Farr said:


> I wish I could find the data source, but not even 30% of the passenger mileage on Amtrak in sleepers is repeat business.



I don't know where this figure comes from, but from my experience on many cross-country Amtrak trips, it doesn't seem remotely accurate. The vast majority of sleeper customers I encountered (and talked with over dining car meals) were repeat customers, if perhaps infrequent ones. Many traveled once or twice a year, or every two or three years. Some made the same (usually shorter) trip several times a year. Occasionally I would meet international tourists or someone who'd say they'd never been on a train before, but I don't think these travelers accounted for even 20 percent.


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## tgstubbs1

I read that airlines are having to dispose or resell thousands of mixed nuts and other airline snacks. Some of the vendors are desparate, too, with so much excessive inventory and sales don't look like they will get better very soon. 

Maybe Amtrak could get some deals. I read long distance travel business on trains isn't hurting as much as NEC and airlines.


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## Nick Farr

fdaley said:


> I don't know where this figure comes from, but from my experience on many cross-country Amtrak trips, it doesn't seem remotely accurate. The vast majority of sleeper customers I encountered (and talked with over dining car meals) were repeat customers, if perhaps infrequent ones.



I've had the exact opposite experience. Of course, it depends on the route, time of year, etc. I travelled twice on the CZ during COVID, and I didn't run across a single repeat customer.

That being said, I think the evidence is pretty clear that Amtrak is not interested in cultivating repeat business that will cost them more to service.

We can fully expect future service cuts. They're not investing in the product and they're really handcuffed by staffing and statute considerations they can't change. 

They'll also probably get decent utilization at the lower service levels too.


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## MARC Rider

Nick Farr said:


> Even the gorgeous meals your see on trains in Europe are still just frozen or refrigerated, heated up and plated.


Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.



There’s a reason chain restaurant food tastes so consistent... and it’s not the consistent training of the cooks!


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## fdaley

Nick Farr said:


> I travelled twice on the CZ during COVID, and I didn't run across a single repeat customer.



So on your two trips, none of the other passengers you met had ever taken an Amtrak sleeper before? If so, I'd say that's highly unusual and likely a function of who's traveling (and who isn't) during the pandemic. Certainly the repeat customers I've met have skewed older, so I'd imagine a lot of them would be postponing all unnecessary travel for now. 

I don't have a problem at all with Amtrak switching to the flex meals systemwide during the pandemic, to reduce health/safety risks and also to save money at a time when ridership is off by somewhere between 75 and 90 percent. My concern is that by next summer, or whenever we've managed to control the virus and/or have a vaccine, the ridership on the LD trains, and especially the western trains, isn't going to rebound to anything close to normal, let alone grow, unless there's a much better plan for meal service -- either by restoring traditional dining (which Amtrak still claims it plans to do on the western trains) or by developing something new that's more akin to the European models we've discussed. 



MARC Rider said:


> Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.



I have no doubt that this is true, but the food quality and presentation were still an order of magnitude better than what we have now. As some others here have put it, it's the difference between dinner at Applebee's and having a Hungry Man dinner at home. For me as a repeat customer, it's the difference between whether I'll book another long-distance trip on Amtrak or not.


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## Nick Farr

MARC Rider said:


> Even the traditional Amtrak dining car fare (with a few exceptions) which is being remembered fondly is "just frozen or refrigerated, heated up, and plated," I believe this is also true of most chain restaurants off the rails, too.



By "heating up" I mean throwing a plastic wrapped container in a convection or microwave oven. This is what they almost always do on trains and planes.

McDonald's, for example, went to cooking fresh instead of frozen beef. There's other chain restaurants that do a lot of cooking or prep for the raw ingredients before they get to final preparation. Chipotle's steak is seasoned and partially cooked before it hits the restaurant, but it's cooked on a grill before it hits the burritos.

My only argument here is that it's possible to have OBS prepare meals like flight attendants prepare meals without ever involving anything like cooking. 

The one-dish-and-done with no plating is the easiest and current approach, but others are possible.


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## Nick Farr

fdaley said:


> So on your two trips, none of the other passengers you met had ever taken an Amtrak sleeper before?



Granted, my ability to talk to passengers was seriously curtailed because COVID. I do think it makes sense, a lot of those passengers had planned that trip for years and didn't want to give it up.

In previous trips I've noticed it at about a third of passenger mileage. If they had a scanner, I just assumed they were repeat business. I liked to try to get to know my neighbors.



fdaley said:


> I don't have a problem at all with Amtrak switching to the flex meals systemwide during the pandemic, to reduce health/safety risks and also to save money at a time when ridership is off by somewhere between 75 and 90 percent. My concern is that by next summer, or whenever we've managed to control the virus and/or have a vaccine, the ridership on the LD trains, and especially the western trains, isn't going to rebound to anything close to normal, let alone grow, unless there's a much better plan for meal service --



Here's where I disagree: 

Younger travelers simply don't care that much about the food. The flex dining options are more variety in than there was in the past and allow for more customization and faster menu swaps than before. 

Despite the drop in quality, there's probably enough younger travelers that are perfectly happy with the privacy and the view to make up for the lost meal experience. 

Younger travelers who can afford sleepers tend to be more urban and not have cars.

The demographic realities are pointing away from full service dining.

From a personal standpoint, I'd rather the flex dining in my room over a steak and getting barked at by servers. While I've had great conversations, I've also had incredibly awkward meals seated with people who pretended I didn't exist. The full service dining model is just not what tomorrow's travelers are going to want.

The other thing I hope for is that people are going to figure out that sleeper car travel is the safest form of transportation across the country. You can keep yourself totally isolated while the country goes by.


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## joelkfla

Nick Farr said:


> In previous trips I've noticed it at about a third of passenger mileage. *If they had a scanner, I just assumed they were repeat business.* I liked to try to get to know my neighbors.


That's true, but certainly not all-encompassing. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people who enjoy riding a LD train are not train chasers.


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## railiner

joelkfla said:


> That's true, but certainly not all-encompassing. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people who enjoy riding a LD train are not train chasers.


Agreed! Unless you are on a detour or some other railfan attraction, you will probably see less than one scanner on an average train....


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## Nick Farr

joelkfla said:


> That's true, but certainly not all-encompassing. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of people who enjoy riding a LD train are not train chasers.



Well, we are talking about sleeper car passengers. The ones with scanners generally keep to themselves and don't like interacting with others. They got dinner in their rooms even before that was common. Most of them were hidden, I only happened to hear them was because I had my own scanner in an earbud and I was walking by. I heard the echo of the faint chatter generated by a freight train with brake problem. I noticed five between two sleepers monitoring that incident. I'm just saying, there's a lot more out there than you'd think. I used to keep mine super hidden, but then didn't really bother. I'm also somewhat certain there wasn't a railfan event on.

The most common repeat sleepers I saw were those making an overnight between a large city and a smaller city, like Ottumwa to Denver or Winemucca to Omaha. In these cases, it's really less time for them to take the train than driving to a major airport and flying--plus they don't lose a day of travel. They were passengers known to the conductors and SCAs.

After that, in my anecdotal experience, it's families with kids or people traveling to see family.

You can tell whether or not they're a repeat customer by the way they talk to the SCA when they're greeted.


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## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> Granted, my ability to talk to passengers was seriously curtailed because COVID. I do think it makes sense, a lot of those passengers had planned that trip for years and didn't want to give it up.
> 
> In previous trips I've noticed it at about a third of passenger mileage. If they had a scanner, I just assumed they were repeat business. I liked to try to get to know my neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's where I disagree:
> 
> Younger travelers simply don't care that much about the food. The flex dining options are more variety in than there was in the past and allow for more customization and faster menu swaps than before.
> 
> Despite the drop in quality, there's probably enough younger travelers that are perfectly happy with the privacy and the view to make up for the lost meal experience.
> 
> Younger travelers who can afford sleepers tend to be more urban and not have cars.
> 
> The demographic realities are pointing away from full service dining.
> 
> From a personal standpoint, I'd rather the flex dining in my room over a steak and getting barked at by servers. While I've had great conversations, I've also had incredibly awkward meals seated with people who pretended I didn't exist. The full service dining model is just not what tomorrow's travelers are going to want.
> 
> The other thing I hope for is that people are going to figure out that sleeper car travel is the safest form of transportation across the country. You can keep yourself totally isolated while the country goes by.


Sounds like you are describing yourself. That doesn't mean the majority think the same.


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## Nick Farr

me_little_me said:


> Sounds like you are describing yourself. That doesn't mean the majority think the same.



Yes, when I say "from a personal standpoint", I'm arguing my specific preferences.

That being said, even when just contemplating the respondents in this forum, I don't see how you can come to another conclusion on the demographic trends. I'm sure there are Boomers who could care less about the meals and Gen Z folk lamenting the loss of our precious Traditional Dining but on the whole, Amtrak made the decision to run a leaner product at a higher price with a lower frequency to capture the market that doesn't really care about service or on-board offerings. 

To prove my point: Why did they keep Traditional Dining on the Auto Train? How do you think the car-owning demographic of the Auto Train differs from other rail passengers?


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## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> to capture the market that doesn't really care about service or on-board offerings.



I’m trying to think of any industry that says “we want to capture the market that doesn’t really care about service” 

Maybe mega bus and spirit airlines? But neither offer a high priced product. If Amtrak wants to be a budget travel option, they need to be charging budget prices and not premium prices.


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## joelkfla

Nick Farr said:


> To prove my point: Why did they keep Traditional Dining on the Auto Train? How do you think the car-owning demographic of the Auto Train differs from other rail passengers?


Maybe it's not a matter of demographics, but just not wanting to jeopardize a moneymaker. (The Auto Train is profitable, isn't it?)


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## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m trying to think of any industry that says “we want to capture the market that doesn’t really care about service”



Amtrak isn't in an industry, it's a sole-source provider of intercity passenger rail whose services are largely set and determined by Congress. Amtrak management largely serves Congressional customers before its passenger customers.

I'm trying to think of another industry where Congress forces a corporation to sell unprofitable activities to customers. The USPS is the only other example I can think of. 

Both the USPS and Amtrak are mandated by taxpayer dollars to provide baseline levels of service in the public interest. Private concerns siphon off the most profitable business from each. 

At some point, USPS realized they could make a lot more money selling a flat-rate product to any door in the country. If it ships, it fits. They changed their business model and package volume went up. It supported a huge crop of makers and was an enabler of industries that saved a lot of people in this country. E-bay, Etsy, Amazon Sellers, etc and the industries they grew would probably would not have been as possible without the USPS subsidy.

Amtrak is doing a similar thing. Amtrak found was that passengers will continue to pay high sleeper car prices to have a room to themselves on a long trip. When I purchase a sleeper car, I'm purchasing just that--a room to myself. The option to be well rested on a transcontinental journey in peace is worth the high price they charge..


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## Palmland

Nick Farr said:


> Amtrak is doing a similar thing. Amtrak found was that passengers will continue to pay high sleeper car prices to have a room to themselves on a long trip. When I purchase a sleeper car, I'm purchasing just that--a room to myself. The option to be well rested on a transcontinental journey in peace is worth the high price they charge.


I agree with this. And, for that high price the passenger should also expect that the equipment is well maintained and the service consistently acceptable.

By the same logic if the dining experience is important to the traveler, shouldn't the dining car meals be of good quality, presented and served consistently well but the passenger pays a premium for it? For all others, head to the cafe with the price included in the fare.


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## crescent-zephyr

Palmland said:


> By the same logic if the dining experience is important to the traveler, shouldn't the dining car meals be of good quality, presented and served consistently well but the passenger pays a premium for it?



A bedroom on the empire builder for 1, departing September 7, shows a $1,880 price tag. What kind of premium should be charged beyond that?

Roomette is $527.

Amtrak was already charging a premium for a plate of scrambled eggs and a basic steak dinner with a prepackaged slice of cheesecake.


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## Palmland

i think we all agree Amtrak pricing is bizarre. A bedroom Sept 22 ChI-Seattle is $895. But the reality is Amtrak food is not healthy, is bland and tasteless, and served by indifferent staff.

Perhaps that bedroom cost could be lowered if it only included the cost of a basic cafe car meal. If you want a meal that you might get in a good moderately priced restaurant, I’d be willing to pay for it.

This of course assumes we are beyond COVID-19 that provides cover for Amtrak to raise prices and lower quality.


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## Sidney

Who in their right mind would pay almost $1900 for a two night trip? A 7day Alaskan cruise and a 12 day transatlantic cruise costs just a bit more. Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette. With the calibar of food they are serving Amtrak is really charging way more than they should,but if people are willing to pay it..I love riding but I would never pay more than low bucket.


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## Qapla

Sidney said:


> almost $1900 for a two night trip - Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette.


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## fdaley

Nick Farr said:


> Despite the drop in quality, there's probably enough younger travelers that are perfectly happy with the privacy and the view to make up for the lost meal experience.



This may be true in theory, and it's certainly what Amtrak's management is saying to justify the change. But for most businesses, repeat customers are gold, and the business that alienates them does so at its peril.

When I've traveled in Amtrak's sleeping cars over the past 35 years, I've seen very few people under 50. I used to think the sleeper market was doomed by demographics -- that the older set that traveled this way would simply die off -- but actually it turned out that as older travelers passed off the scene, new 50-somethings came along to replace them. If doing away with dining service now means that a fair chunk of the current, older clientele quits or cuts back on long-distance train travel, Amtrak will need to reach out to a lot of younger riders, who aren't in the habit of using its service now, to get them to try it. Even if it succeeds at this, many of them are unlikely to become repeat customers.

People in the 25-45 age group may care less about food quality, but they are also less likely to have the financial means to afford Amtrak's sleeper fares. Among those that do, many have work and family commitments that weigh against taking a two- or three-night train trip to cover a distance they can fly in a few hours. And when they get to be of an age where they have the time and money to enjoy sleeping car travel, I suspect some of them will care more about the food quality than they do now.


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## Nick Farr

Sidney said:


> Who in their right mind would pay almost $1900 for a two night trip? A 7day Alaskan cruise and a 12 day transatlantic cruise costs just a bit more. Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette. With the calibar of food they are serving Amtrak is really charging way more than they should,but if people are willing to pay it..I love riding but I would never pay more than low bucket.



Are we actually allowed to leave the country yet? Are cruise lines running?


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## me_little_me

Young people cruise and that's not cheap (although cheaper than Amtrak) and I don't see a lot of them doing the sit-down dining. But that doesn't mean they don't like good food nicely presented. On a cruise trip you get lots of choices at the buffet and plenty of hot fresh food including at breakfast, salad bars, specialty food, different desserts. as well as different types of junk food (pizza, fries, etc) with different things each day, and you can eat any time. There is also real cutlery, glasses and plates as well as service (table cleanup, plate clearing, etc). The young like that, I'll admit.

So Amtrak's interpretation was very few unchanging choices, only bland, reheated, same food for lunch and dinner (and the next day), micro-sized salads with one kind of dressing, food thrown at you, dining car attendants that order you around and berate you for not knowing what you want, no cleanup and no friendliness, no real hot breakfast, and nothing worth remembering. And that was pre-Covid in the east. 

Sorry, that's not what the young people I saw, wanted. The cafe, although paid, at least offered them the more enjoyable junk food and they brought that back to the diner as my wife sometimes did.

So if Amtrak wants to appeal to the young sleeper passengers, they need nice fresh salads with choice of dressing, a burger, fries, variety of desserts, choices of vegetables not pre-selected and mixed in the protein, choices of protein, fresh rolls, better breakfasts and dump the pre-packaged sugar breakfasts and the two lookalike desserts.

They also need to provide real cutlery, plates, and some semblance of service.


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## Willbridge

As for the attitude of OBS personnel, I haven't been east of Chicago that much, but the recent complaints here remind me of the Southern Pacific after it turned hostile in 1955 or so. Becoming aware that their management wanted to get rid of them and their trains, they turned nasty and spiteful. I recall employees yelling at each other and the customers over a triple-booked coach seat, for example. They dragged the better staff down with them. (A friend who worked in the Portland reservation bureau in the 1960's was told by his doctor to retire to save his life.)

That isn't always how it works out. The employees on the Rio Grande narrow-gauge solicited business themselves and built up the tourist potential, even though they knew that the top people in Denver were eager to rid themselves of the anachronism. Perhaps it's the scale of the operation that makes a difference, or perhaps it's working out of a perpetually slim labor market that focuses minds on customer service.

Photo: the Rio Grande station agent whose wife helped him mail promotional literature to travel agents, tour operators, writers, etc. He was on his way from Durango to a lunch meeting with Silverton business people. Of course, he took the train.


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## sldispatcher

I wish Amtrak would get out of the sleeper/food business altogether. Let the service be transitioned over to a 3rd party provider. Amtrak could concentrate on providing the basic service (Coach) and running the train across the rails and let a private provider take on the sleeper/food service. I have a feeling the sleeper revenue is so important to Amtrak that they will never "do the right thing". I also do not agree with Congress' obsession over food costs.


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## Nick Farr

sldispatcher said:


> I wish Amtrak would get out of the sleeper/food business altogether.



Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

That would almost certainly mean that the product itself dies. 



sldispatcher said:


> I also do not agree with Congress' obsession over food costs.



There are those in Congress who simply want Amtrak to die. If they can't stab it in the heart, they'll knick it where they can.


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## Bob Dylan

Nick Farr said:


> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
> 
> That would almost certainly mean that the product itself dies.
> 
> 
> 
> There are those in Congress who simply want Amtrak to die. If they can't stab it in the heart, they'll knick it where they can.


This!


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## Qapla

From all apparent results it seems that the FAA, NTSB, SEC, FCC and a few other departments work just fine. The US has been a leader in helping to establish safety standards for air travel and is often requested to help with the investigations even when a crash happens in another country by a non-US airline.

They also to a pretty good job at building roads, bridges and naval seaports.

So, why can't they run a Amtrak and the USPS?

Maybe because they are going at it wrong from the premise that it is a business that needs to turn a profit instead of a service like those other services.


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## Nick Farr

Qapla said:


> From all apparent results it seems that the FAA, NTSB, SEC, FCC and a few other departments work just fine. The US has been a leader in helping to establish safety standards for air travel and is often requested to help with the investigations even when a crash happens in another country by a non-US airline.



And then came the 737-MAX, where an undocumented software glitch killed 246 people.



Qapla said:


> Maybe because they are going at it wrong from the premise that it is a business that needs to turn a profit instead of a service like those other services.



This is where you're partially correct. Roads are not a profitable enterprise--this is why governments run the roads and tax fuel, registration, etc.

If you split the railroads themselves from the services that run on them and make dispatch something akin to Air Traffic Control, it is possible for railroad services to be profitable.

The problem is that Amtrak was created as a bailout of failed government passenger services. There was no private enterprise to hand them over to, nor was there any real private enterprise that wanted to assume responsibility for a national passenger rail network.

*Amtrak also suffers from an agency problem. *Whereas Airlines primary customer are their passengers, Amtrak's primary customers outside of the NEC are the Federal and State government. Amtrak doesn't have competitors that would encourage them to compete on service.

Even private airlines get government bailouts every 10 to 20 years based on economic conditions (and never pay that back in good times, where they use spare cash for stock buybacks). Yet, planes land, depart and are controlled by entities that are government sponsored--ones they do not own. This allows them to differentiate based on service and price provided to the customer.


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## railiner

Nick Farr said:


> The problem is that Amtrak was created as a bailout of failed government passenger services.


Quite the contrary...the government bailed out passenger trains from extinction from private operators....


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## jruff001

Sidney said:


> Who in their right mind would pay almost $1900 for a two night trip? A 7day Alaskan cruise and a 12 day transatlantic cruise costs just a bit more. Outrageous! Even $500 is high for a roomette.


Why are people talking like that is per person? Roomettes and bedrooms are built for more than one person.


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## tgstubbs1

jruff001 said:


> Why are people talking like that is per person? Roomettes and bedrooms are built for more than one person.


It's a bit difficult to compare directly. Cruises are usually priced on 'double occupancy'. The single price will be quite a bit higher, almost 2x. AMTRAK prices the rooms separately from the basic fare. It would be interesting to create a comparison based on double occupancy.


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## Sidney

I was referring to two people. The sleeper price is for two people. Rail fare is extra. I still maintain almost $1900 for a two night trip is outrageous,even with the great food.


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## Nick Farr

railiner said:


> Quite the contrary...the government bailed out passenger trains from extinction from private operators....



We might be saying the same thing, we might not be. 

The Rail Passenger Service Act which created Amtrak (i.e. NPRC) I view as a bailout. Participating railroads basically shed any liabilities or obligations to run passenger service into the NRPC in exchange for that same passenger rolling stock that was basically useless to them. 

They did not have to give up their track or real estate, they were perfectly free to continue running profitable freight services and/or sell off other parts of their network for cash. The government basically bought unprofitable services from them that they were otherwise required to continue to run by law.

In a conventional bankruptcy, the only other way out of ICC obligations, all of those valuable, lucrative assets of the railroads would be subject to sell to settle creditor debts.


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## tgstubbs1

Sidney said:


> I was referring to two people. The sleeper price is for two people. Rail fare is extra. I still maintain almost $1900 for a two night trip is outrageous,even with the great food.


you're right. I know cruises were doing pretty good business before the virus. Maybe much better value than the train?


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## Qapla

The difference is single and double occupancy on Amtrak is only the cost of the second person's fare (often based on coach fare)

The sleeper is a separate charge and remains the same regardless if one or two people occupy the cabin.


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## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> The difference is single and double occupancy on Amtrak is only the cost of the second person's fare (often based on coach fare)
> 
> The sleeper is a separate charge and remains the same regardless if one or two people occupy the cabin.


Right, and on a boat you'd pay almost twice the double occupancy rate if you are single. In both cases a single occupant pays for the whole room. No such thing as a free lunch I guess.

Considering the ample food on ships, which is a big attraction for vacationers, the price per night might be better than Amtrak. They have a lot of other luxuries, too. I guess people usually don't get seasick, but a number of them fall overboard.


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## niemi24s

Wife and I take occasional cruises but when bored (happens a lot up here in the Winter) I kill time by planning for cruises and rail travel to and from the cruise ports. Our favorite cruise line is Holland America and we always take the cheapest inside cabins. My favorite way to compare the costs of cruises is by calculating their cost per night per person. 

• The dozen or so seven night cruises looked at before Covid 19 cost in the range of $95 to $115 per night per person, including gratuities.
• Getting us to and from the cruise port on Amtrak (say, MKE to SAN) in a low bucket Roomette costs about $185 per night per person, including parking in MKE, a few meals and one night in a hotel in SAN. 
• The cost per night per person for such a 13 night junket runs about $143 with the train travel portion accounting for about 60% of the total cost. 

Which is the best (has the most) value? I'm quite certain we all have our own opinions - just like we all have our own bellybuttons.


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## jruff001

tgstubbs1 said:


> Cruises are usually priced on 'double occupancy'.


Also, I think the comparison to a cruise is more or less useless. Cruises are SOLELY selling the experience, whereas - foamers aside - a lot of people take Amtrak to actually get from Point A to Point B (in addition to the experience). Different concept and reason for being.


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## jruff001

Sidney said:


> I was referring to two people. The sleeper price is for two people. Rail fare is extra. I still maintain almost $1900 for a two night trip is outrageous,even with the great food.


OK I just looked at Amtrak.com for CHI-SEA on 22 Sep. and it showed a roomette for two people for $772 (so that would include rail fare for two and the accommodation charge), which is $386pp.


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## Qapla

The lowest price for that trip is $772 but other sleeper rates are $871, $1447, and $1780

Another way to look at that pricing is that the roomette at the lowest fare cost $236 per night ... how does that compare to similarly priced nighttime accommodations for room, comfort and amenities?


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## jruff001

Qapla said:


> The lowest price for that trip is $772 but other sleeper rates are $871, $1447, and $1780
> 
> Another way to look at that pricing is that the roomette at the lowest fare cost $236 per night ... how does that compare to similarly priced nighttime accommodations for room, comfort and amenities?


I am not sure what you mean. What else are you thinking it should be compared to?


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## AM_ROAD

Part of the problems is to is the general public's standards have also lowered as well. Most travelers associate traveling meals with airline food, most never knew what it was like to get a giant baked potato on the NP, or a fresh steak on the SOU. I was lucky to have a Chef on the Crescent in 2001 that had worked on the train since the Southern ran her. I know the difference and I got the extreme tail end of it.

I'm new here (I think it has been talked about), but I do wonder if Amtrak has looked back into a concept of Slumbercoaches. It's very similar to what many Business Class passengers take on airlines such as Emirates, and the folding beds they had are similar to what you find on a Superliner or Viewliner. From what I read the few Slumbercoaches on Amtrak were not too much more expensive than a coach seat. Would the economics of that have to change?


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## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> foamers aside - a lot of people take Amtrak to actually get from Point A to Point B (in addition to the experience). Different concept and reason for being.



If I want to foam (railfan..) I go to Durango or Strasburg etc. I take Amtrak to get somewhere.. and yes enjoy the train travel as well. On any given day there are probably just as many people making “points runs” on airlines (traveling just for the points promotions...) as there are railfans who are riding purely for a joy ride.


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## niemi24s

jruff001 said:


> OK I just looked at Amtrak.com for CHI-SEA on 22 Sep. and it showed a roomette for two people for $772 (so that would include rail fare for two and the accommodation charge), which is $386pp.


The accommodation charge for this low bucket trip happens to be $772 - (2 X $245) = $772 - $490 = $282 in which the $245 is the rail fare (coach fare) for one adult that's one bucket above the Value Fare of $188. That $772 for a two night trip for two adults works out $193 per person per night. And that cost is probably comparable to a much nicer berth on a nice cruise ship for a 7 day cruise.

But when making a comparison between that sleeper trip or one in Coach on the same train and date, the Coach fare for two adults is $300 or $75 per person per night or $193 - $75 = $118 more per night per person for the Roomette.


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## Willbridge

AM_ROAD said:


> Part of the problems is to is the general public's standards have also lowered as well. Most travelers associate traveling meals with airline food, most never knew what it was like to get a giant baked potato on the NP, or a fresh steak on the SOU. I was lucky to have a Chef on the Crescent in 2001 that had worked on the train since the Southern ran her. I know the difference and I got the extreme tail end of it.
> 
> I'm new here (I think it has been talked about), but I do wonder if Amtrak has looked back into a concept of Slumbercoaches. It's very similar to what many Business Class passengers take on airlines such as Emirates, and the folding beds they had are similar to what you find on a Superliner or Viewliner. From what I read the few Slumbercoaches on Amtrak were not too much more expensive than a coach seat. Would the economics of that have to change?


Slumbercoaches are fondly recalled and have been discussed here from time to time. One point of discussion is their economics vs. Superliner roomettes.

NP baked potatoes are also fondly recalled, although the UP is actually the best alignment for potato growers.


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## tgstubbs1

The one restaurant job I had in college ( I lasted almost 6 weeks before being released for apparent lack of taste) we would wrap up a bunch of potatoes in foil and get them ready to bake. After they were baked I think they kept them in a warming drawer until needed. 

Couldn't Amtrak contract with a local vendor somewhere to bake 'em and then have them ready for a train to pick up?
They could have a big box ready to go. Maybe a bunch of salads, too.


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## Willbridge

tgstubbs1 said:


> The one restaurant job I had in college ( I lasted almost 6 weeks before being released for apparent lack of taste) we would wrap up a bunch of potatoes in foil and get them ready to bake. After they were baked I think they kept them in a warming drawer until needed.
> 
> Couldn't Amtrak contract with a local vendor somewhere to bake 'em and then have them ready for a train to pick up?
> They could have a big box ready to go. Maybe a bunch of salads, too.


It does seem that if a kitchen-klutz like myself can bake a potato in a microwave that there should be a way to offer that in a cafe car.


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## Rasputin

Willbridge said:


> It does seem that if a kitchen-klutz like myself can bake a potato in a microwave that there should be a way to offer that in a cafe car.
> 
> View attachment 18707


I think you are on to something (as long as they don't forget to load the butter.)


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## Qapla

Wait ... now you want power for a microwave AND for some sort of refrigeration - then an employee who places the potatoes in the microwave and another to add the butter ... isn't that getting a bit complicated and extravagant


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## jruff001

niemi24s said:


> The accommodation charge for this low bucket trip happens to be $772 - (2 X $245) = $772 - $490 = $282 in which the $245 is the rail fare (coach fare) for one adult that's one bucket above the Value Fare of $188. That $772 for a two night trip for two adults works out $193 per person per night. And that cost is probably comparable to a much nicer berth on a nice cruise ship for a 7 day cruise.



Well, there is no question that if you are looking for a cruise on a ship, you shouldn't be booking Amtrak. Just like if I want to go from Chicago to Seattle, I wouldn't be trying to decide which cruise ship berth would be the best choice for me. So I don't see how that comparison is relevant.


----------



## Rasputin

Qapla said:


> Wait ... now you want power for a microwave AND for some sort of refrigeration - then an employee who places the potatoes in the microwave and another to add the butter ... isn't that getting a bit complicated and extravagant


That is true, except that all Amtrak would have to do is to provide the butter (which we know from recent trip reports may be too much to expect.) In the lucky event that the butter is provided, hopefully the customer can do the heavy lifting of applying the butter to the potato.


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## PVD

Are we getting a bit fanciful? Most of us know that they already had baked potatoes on board., and for the new world of "convenience", pre sized potatoes, both regular and sweet potatoes are readily available plastic wrapped to microwave (7 minutes). They actually store pretty well, also.


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## niemi24s

jruff001 said:


> Well, there is no question that if you are looking for a cruise on a ship, you shouldn't be booking Amtrak.


There's no question? I shouldn't?? Sez who??? You???? Harrrumph!

Please get over yourself! Amtrak is our preferred method for getting to and from a cruise port.


> Just like if I want to go from Chicago to Seattle, I wouldn't be trying to decide which cruise ship berth would be the best choice for me. So I don't see how that comparison is relevant.


First of all, it is not really necessary for _you_ to see how that comparison is relevant. It's simply one of the ways to make a comparison - like it or lump it.
In the second place, welcome to my ignore list.


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## Nick Farr

tgstubbs1 said:


> Couldn't Amtrak contract with a local vendor somewhere to bake 'em and then have them ready for a train to pick up?
> They could have a big box ready to go. Maybe a bunch of salads, too.



Having Amtrak create a pathway for local vendors to provide fresh food options is something that we've all agreed on in this and other threads.


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## Qapla

jruff001 said:


> I don't see how that comparison is relevant.



Back when I first started working in a pizza place the industry used to talk about the "pizza dollar" - that is how they referred to the amount of money each person/family was willing to spend on pizza. The industry magazines would have articles about how you needed to compete with other pizza places in your area for your share of "the pizza dollar". I worked in the pizza industry for about 15 years.

Over the years the idea of the "pizza dollar" changed to the "food dollar". One could say, "What does running a pizza place have to do with a steak house or seafood place?" The answer is, we were no longer only competing with other pizza places for the money people spent on pizza - we were not competing with the amount of money people spent eating out. We were competing with ALL restaurants ... not just the food we served.

Likewise, even though taking a train has nothing to do with taking a cruise ship - people only have so much money to spend. When it comes to travel - all forms of travel are competing for the "travel dollar". Airlines, cars, RV's, cruse ships and trains. They do not compete ONLY in their own "category" they are all vying same money ... money that is in shorter supply with the aftermath (or continuing dilemma) of COVID-19


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## jruff001

Qapla said:


> Back when I first started working in a pizza place the industry used to talk about the "pizza dollar" - that is how they referred to the amount of money each person/family was willing to spend on pizza. The industry magazines would have articles about how you needed to compete with other pizza places in your area for your share of "the pizza dollar". I worked in the pizza industry for about 15 years.
> 
> Over the years the idea of the "pizza dollar" changed to the "food dollar". One could say, "What does running a pizza place have to do with a steak house or seafood place?" The answer is, we were no longer only competing with other pizza places for the money people spent on pizza - we were not competing with the amount of money people spent eating out. We were competing with ALL restaurants ... not just the food we served.
> 
> Likewise, even though taking a train has nothing to do with taking a cruise ship - people only have so much money to spend. When it comes to travel - all forms of travel are competing for the "travel dollar". Airlines, cars, RV's, cruse ships and trains. They do not compete ONLY in their own "category" they are all vying same money ... money that is in shorter supply with the aftermath (or continuing dilemma) of COVID-19


I get that, but I think Amtrak and cruise ships are selling completely different things that can't be lumped together in one category. Cruise ships are selling, let's call it, "leisure" - relaxation and having a good time in a fun setting. The competition for that would be something like a resort hotel, or Disney.

OTOH, while there is some overlap (especially on a site like this with avid railfans), Amtrak is primarily selling "transportation" - getting from A to B. Its competition is mainly planes, cars and buses.


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## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> Back when I first started working in a pizza place the industry used to talk about the "pizza dollar" - that is how they referred to the amount of money each person/family was willing to spend on pizza. The industry magazines would have articles about how you needed to compete with other pizza places in your area for your share of "the pizza dollar". I worked in the pizza industry for about 15 years.
> 
> Over the years the idea of the "pizza dollar" changed to the "food dollar". One could say, "What does running a pizza place have to do with a steak house or seafood place?" The answer is, we were no longer only competing with other pizza places for the money people spent on pizza - we were not competing with the amount of money people spent eating out. We were competing with ALL restaurants ... not just the food we served.
> 
> Likewise, even though taking a train has nothing to do with taking a cruise ship - people only have so much money to spend. When it comes to travel - all forms of travel are competing for the "travel dollar". Airlines, cars, RV's, cruse ships and trains. They do not compete ONLY in their own "category" they are all vying same money ... money that is in shorter supply with the aftermath (or continuing dilemma) of COVID-19


Right. People can choose to spend a couple of days crossing the country, but if they don't enjoy it or have some compelling reason not to fly, they will probably fly, or drive. 

It looks like a person could fly to Seattle and hop a quick cruise around the Sound or San Juans with the time/money spent on an Amtrak bedroom. 

Unless they have some particular reason not to fly Amtrak usually loses to air for point A to point B, with some exceptions, like the NEC.


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## Qapla

Basically, if you want to get peoples money - you have to give them a reason to spend it with YOU and not someone else ... something Amtrak is not currently doing


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## jruff001

Qapla said:


> Basically, if you want to get peoples money - you have to give them a reason to spend it with YOU and not someone else ... something Amtrak is not currently doing


Let's not forget that the biggest reason hardly anyone takes Amtrak's long distance trains isn't because of Flex Dining. It's because it takes four days instead of five hours to get across the country, or two days instead of two hours from NY-FL.

It is just not a practical way for most people to travel, no matter what they are or aren't serving for dinner.


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## tgstubbs1

That's why Amtrak is between a rock and a hard place.
Of people I've known that took a LD trip, they were the type to want a little adventure, learning and sightseeing along the way. If they have to endure what some people consider torturous food they may reconsider, especially if it's part of an expensive package.
Food isn't the main issue, but it does have an influence.


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## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> I get that, but I think Amtrak and cruise ships are selling completely different things that can't be lumped together in one category.


Nobody is lumping them together in one category. It's a price comparison. Further, you can use cruise ships as transportation. There are one way cruises to Alaska, Puerto Rico, and across the Ocean. That's of course a small percentage of travelers. 



tgstubbs1 said:


> Unless they have some particular reason not to fly Amtrak usually loses to air for point A to point B, with some exceptions, like the NEC.





jruff001 said:


> It is just not a practical way for most people to travel, no matter what they are or aren't serving for dinner.



This gets tricky... a single overnight, depending on several factors, can many times be very practical. Past that it gets less and less practical when compared directly to flying. 



jruff001 said:


> Let's not forget that the biggest reason hardly anyone takes Amtrak's long distance trains isn't because of Flex Dining. It's because it takes four days instead of five hours to get across the country, or two days instead of two hours from NY-FL.



My last amtrak long distance trip was Florida to Pennsylvania. I compared flights and Amtrak and chose Amtrak for a number of reasons. Amtrak was more practical for me. Either way I was going to need to spend an overnight somewhere (either on the train or a hotel when I arrived from my flight) - the train was the most convenient as I needed to get to Lancaster and so I could just get off the Meteor and transfer to a Keystone train. But this is leaving dining car talk and entering a whole different set of questions.


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## crescent-zephyr

Regarding Baked Potatoes in the dining car - it should be literally as simple as having the LSA place a baked potato in an oven and then serving it. It actually would be EASIER than the flex meals since they have to be heated to order.


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## Palmetto

tgstubbs1 said:


> The one restaurant job I had in college ( I lasted almost 6 weeks before being released for apparent lack of taste) we would wrap up a bunch of potatoes in foil and get them ready to bake. After they were baked I think they kept them in a warming drawer until needed.
> 
> Couldn't Amtrak contract with a local vendor somewhere to bake 'em and then have them ready for a train to pick up?
> They could have a big box ready to go. Maybe a bunch of salads, too.



Amtrak had baked potatoes all over its system on long distance trains. There is no reason to fix it if it isn't broken--unless, of course, the cost is less, because it seems to be about cutting costs these days.


----------



## Palmetto

niemi24s said:


> There's no question? I shouldn't?? Sez who??? You???? Harrrumph!
> 
> Please get over yourself! Amtrak is our preferred method for getting to and from a cruise port.
> 
> First of all, it is not really necessary for _you_ to see how that comparison is relevant. It's simply one of the ways to make a comparison - like it or lump it.
> In the second place, welcome to my ignore list.




Apparently, you brook no opposition.


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## niemi24s

Qapla said:


> Likewise, even though taking a train has nothing to do with taking a cruise ship - people only have so much money to spend.


But if you dislike flying and want to take the train to and from the cruise port then taking the train has _much_ to do with taking a cruise ship. They both become the vast majority of the cost of such a journey. And then each of their costs is an objective basis for comparison as opposed to the opinionated stuff regarding food, service, amenities, scenery, etc., etc., etc. 

This is nothing more than the way I do it. Nothing more. Take it or leave it.


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## Qapla

jruff001 said:


> Let's not forget that the biggest reason hardly anyone takes Amtrak's long distance trains ... is because it takes four days instead of five hours to get across the country, or two days instead of two hours from NY-FL. - It is just not a practical way for most people to travel, no matter what they are or aren't serving for dinner.



While it may be true that many prefer to fly because it is faster - let's not forget about those who drive and take just as long, or longer, than the train takes. In talking to people I have found that many are surprised that there is a passenger train. They didn't take the train, not because it took too long, but because they never thought of it.

Amtrak does not advertise - at least not effectively. The old adage actually is true - out-of-sight-out-of-mind. I have had many people tell me "I wish I had known I could take the train from Florida to NY" when I told them about my experiences on Amtrak.

Amtrak does not need everyone who wants to travel from point A to B to fill trains. They just need enough! Sounds simple. But, when the majority of people are unaware of a product or service they don't use it no matter how many changes to the product or service they make.

The way to make any business profitable is to get more customers. Reducing services or cutting corners seldom gets the desired results. Making more people aware of your product/service is a far better way to attract more customers and thus increase profits ... something Amtrak does not seem to understand (or refuses to do)

If there were proper advertising of Amtrak people may be surprised at how many people would use LD trains - there is certainly enough to keep Interstate crowded ... many of who would gladly ride than drive


----------



## me_little_me

niemi24s said:


> There's no question? I shouldn't?? Sez who??? You???? Harrrumph!
> Please get over yourself! Amtrak is our preferred method for getting to and from a cruise port.


I agree. Amtrak to Boston, Baltimore and Ft Lauderdale (twice) for cruises. Was looking at Amtrak to NOL and Houston (Galveston) when Covid came along. I'd have done more but it hadn't hit me that it made it so easy until a few years ago.Lots of baggage, nice ride, no cruise port high parking fees, no packed plane with $$$ baggage fees, free station parking (Cary, Greensboro, Savannah) and a chance to relax overnight in local city before going on the cruise.


----------



## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> If there were proper advertising of Amtrak people may be surprised at how many people would use LD trains - there is certainly enough to keep Interstate crowded ... many of who would gladly ride than drive


Surely a nationwide, massive advertising campaign would help them. But they can't afford that, and it wouldn't be very efficient use of advertising dollars. 

I don't think they can afford to advertise to a broad general market because of the expense, and their actual target audience is so narrow it's hard to find a medium that addresses just that market. After all they don't even serve that many places so to advertise them in a manner like United Airlines or Delta, who provide true nationwide service to most of the major cities in the country, would be a huge waste. Most of those people that couldn't use Amtrak for their needs if they wanted to. 

They advertise their tours/packages some in travel arenas because there is a chance people might want a tour of the Grand Canyon or something like that.

It's just not set up as a nationwide point A to point B service for most of country. It has an incomplete network and now the 3x weekly service will make it even more difficult to use.


----------



## jruff001

me_little_me said:


> I agree. Amtrak to Boston, Baltimore and Ft Lauderdale (twice) for cruises. Was looking at Amtrak to NOL and Houston (Galveston) when Covid came along.


I wasn't talking about getting to and from the cruise port. (That would be the "transportation" product I mentioned.) I was referring to the experience of actually being on a cruise ship with the (pre-Covid) buffets, casino, lounging by the pool, shows, looking out over the ocean, whatever about the cruise experience you were seeking (the "leisure" product).

At least two people seem to misunderstood me so apologies if I did not express myself clearly.


----------



## AM_ROAD

me_little_me said:


> I agree. Amtrak to Boston, Baltimore and Ft Lauderdale (twice) for cruises. Was looking at Amtrak to NOL and Houston (Galveston) when Covid came along. I'd have done more but it hadn't hit me that it made it so easy until a few years ago.Lots of baggage, nice ride, no cruise port high parking fees, no packed plane with $$$ baggage fees, free station parking (Cary, Greensboro, Savannah) and a chance to relax overnight in local city before going on the cruise.


Sunset is the nearest train to me (3 hours away from Alpine and that aint bad). Sunset is a mess in Texas. I can get to Los Angles faster than New Orleans.


----------



## Barb Stout

crescent-zephyr said:


> If I want to foam (railfan..) I go to Durango or Strasburg etc. I take Amtrak to get somewhere.. and yes enjoy the train travel as well. On any given day there are probably just as many people making “points runs” on airlines (traveling just for the points promotions...) as there are railfans who are riding purely for a joy ride.


Speaking of Durango, there was a Covid19 outbreak in Silverton, but it was in a business that "is closed to the public". I am curious about what businesses would be closed to the public in a tourist town. And I suppose I shouldn't be mentioning this in this particular thread, but this is my way of breaking rules.


----------



## tgstubbs1

Colorado has had various mandatory shutdowns of various businesses like restaurants and bars.


----------



## Barb Stout

Qapla said:


> While it may be true that many prefer to fly because it is faster - let's not forget about those who drive and take just as long, or longer, than the train takes. In talking to people I have found that many are surprised that there is a passenger train. They didn't take the train, not because it took too long, but because they never thought of it.
> 
> Amtrak does not advertise - at least not effectively. The old adage actually is true - out-of-sight-out-of-mind. I have had many people tell me "I wish I had known I could take the train from Florida to NY" when I told them about my experiences on Amtrak.
> 
> Amtrak does not need everyone who wants to travel from point A to B to fill trains. They just need enough! Sounds simple. But, when the majority of people are unaware of a product or service they don't use it no matter how many changes to the product or service they make.
> 
> The way to make any business profitable is to get more customers. Reducing services or cutting corners seldom gets the desired results. Making more people aware of your product/service is a far better way to attract more customers and thus increase profits ... something Amtrak does not seem to understand (or refuses to do)
> 
> If there were proper advertising of Amtrak people may be surprised at how many people would use LD trains - there is certainly enough to keep Interstate crowded ... many of who would gladly ride than drive


Yes, I was in my late 50s when I realized that I could take the train. And that was only because a friend had taken it from Chicago to where I live.


----------



## Nick Farr

Qapla said:


> Likewise, even though taking a train has nothing to do with taking a cruise ship - people only have so much money to spend. When it comes to travel - all forms of travel are competing for the "travel dollar". Airlines, cars, RV's, cruse ships and trains. They do not compete ONLY in their own "category" they are all vying same money ... money that is in shorter supply with the aftermath (or continuing dilemma) of COVID-19



Especially as budgets tighten, this becomes far more relevant.

Amtrak appears to be going exclusively for the captive "railroad dollars": People who are going to take the train because that's what they want to do. I don't see Amtrak competing for "travel dollars". Of course, the former is a fraction of the latter and as the latter shrinks so does the former.

So, in a way, Amtrak is not the same thing as a cruise. Cruise people cruise, Train people take the train.

But there are a lot of travelers that are looking for travel ideas. I think that the "travel dollar" market is looking for new ideas of things to do. However--Amtrak is not competing for travel dollars. It's a safer, more comfortable, less stressful way to move about the country in pandemic times and I don't think they're wisely pitching themselves as that option.

Amtrak's core problem is complacency, letting the "railroad dollars" roll in while it leaves the "travel dollar" on the table.


----------



## Nick Farr

Qapla said:


> Basically, if you want to get peoples money - you have to give them a reason to spend it with YOU and not someone else ... something Amtrak is not currently doing



Why can't we do Amtrak's advertising for it?


----------



## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> Why can't we do Amtrak's advertising for it?


Amtrak doesn't want us.


----------



## Qapla

Nick Farr said:


> Why can't we do Amtrak's advertising for it?



Now there's an idea - maybe someone should start a "Go Fund Me" for Amtrak advertising and see what happens


----------



## Sauve850

Qapla said:


> While it may be true that many prefer to fly because it is faster - let's not forget about those who drive and take just as long, or longer, than the train takes. In talking to people I have found that many are surprised that there is a passenger train. They didn't take the train, not because it took too long, but because they never thought of it.
> 
> Amtrak does not advertise - at least not effectively. The old adage actually is true - out-of-sight-out-of-mind. I have had many people tell me "I wish I had known I could take the train from Florida to NY" when I told them about my experiences on Amtrak.
> 
> Amtrak does not need everyone who wants to travel from point A to B to fill trains. They just need enough! Sounds simple. But, when the majority of people are unaware of a product or service they don't use it no matter how many changes to the product or service they make.
> 
> The way to make any business profitable is to get more customers. Reducing services or cutting corners seldom gets the desired results. Making more people aware of your product/service is a far better way to attract more customers and thus increase profits ... something Amtrak does not seem to understand (or refuses to do)
> 
> If there were proper advertising of Amtrak people may be surprised at how many people would use LD trains - there is certainly enough to keep Interstate crowded ... many of who would gladly ride than drive


From years of experience the way I made my business successful was to treat all my existing customers exceptionally well. I only wanted a fair share of the market dollars for my company. Superior service was given. I had no need to do expensive advertising to the general public as they provided me with all the new customers I could ever want who in turn were treated equally as well. Recurring revenue was the result. I was not in the transportation business nor a national company but served the same people. There were about a million people in our area at that time and for sure the majority never had heard of my company. Over time that did change. Amtrak has older equipment on most routes, food issues and some not so great employees at times, etc. Its a long road and Im not sure they can overcome these obstacles anytime soon. I hope so and agree there needs to be a reason to take the train. Although not qualified I would do things different but so would everyone on this forum that offers good advice.


----------



## Willbridge

Barb Stout said:


> Speaking of Durango, there was a Covid19 outbreak in Silverton, but it was in a business that "is closed to the public". I am curious about what businesses would be closed to the public in a tourist town. And I suppose I shouldn't be mentioning this in this particular thread, but this is my way of breaking rules.


Silverton cases may have been in a small office, such as an accountant or insurance broker.


----------



## Willbridge

Barb Stout said:


> Yes, I was in my late 50s when I realized that I could take the train. And that was only because a friend had taken it from Chicago to where I live.


That problem has stuck in my head since I came home from overseas in 1971 and found that a lot of people thought that all trains had been discontinued that May. I was on a city bus on the bridge going over Portland's Union Station platforms when I overheard a lady saying to a friend that "it's too bad they don't have passenger trains anymore." I looked down and could see one as she said that.

In the 1960's there was a suspicion that the SP used train-off applications to drive down ridership. They would file an extreme demand, get the sappy news stories about how the trains were busy in WWII, and then accept a compromise with regulators for cuts of one sort or another (they had an inventory of evil). Media coverage could barely explain the technical cuts. so there would be little published. TV was even worse. Then a couple of years later they'd come back again, showing the ridership drop. When commercial whiz Stan Freberg, a regular overnight business traveler on the SF<>LA Coast Line. offered to provide them with free radio spots they turned him down.

Cynics said that the slogan was/is? "Next time hide the train."


----------



## John-MCPO-USN

Rode #5, #11, #14 and on #8 right now - and talked (at length) with the crews of each train - and all stated the same thing "traditional dining will never return"......at least nowhere in the near future - but that was the only thing all 4 journeys shared in common - other than that, each journey had a different set of dining procedures and processes....


----------



## Steve4031

jruff001 said:


> Let's not forget that the biggest reason hardly anyone takes Amtrak's long distance trains isn't because of Flex Dining. It's because it takes four days instead of five hours to get across the country, or two days instead of two hours from NY-FL.
> 
> It is just not a practical way for most people to travel, no matter what they are or aren't serving for dinner.


Then why were trains sold out or nearly full in the summer and around holidays.


----------



## jruff001

Steve4031 said:


> Then why were trains sold out or nearly full in the summer and around holidays.


I'm not sure what that proves (maybe that they should raise their fares even more at peak periods, or could cut on-board service offerings still further?)

It's still a miniscule percentage of total intercity travel in the U.S.


----------



## niemi24s

jruff001 said:


> It's still a miniscule percentage of total intercity travel in the U.S.


And exactly what, pray tell, is that miniscule percentage?


----------



## Steve4031

jruff001 said:


> I'm not sure what that proves (maybe that they should raise their fares even more at peak periods, or could cut on-board service offerings still further?)
> 
> It's still a miniscule percentage of total intercity travel in the U.S.


I honestly wonder why this guy is participating in a forum intended to discuss and advocate for passenger trains.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Steve4031 said:


> I honestly wonder why this guy is participating in a forum intended to discuss and advocate for passenger trains.



It’s always good to see things from another perspective.

Long distance rail is a questionable investment. In my opinion the country should make a decision to do it right and have multiple frequencies daily per route... or just pull the plug and leave it up to the states. 

What we have right now, isn’t worth saving imho.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s always good to see things from another perspective.
> 
> Long distance rail is a questionable investment. In my opinion the country should make a decision to do it right and have multiple frequencies daily per route... or just pull the plug and leave it up to the states.
> 
> What we have right now, isn’t worth saving imho.


Now some will start wondering why you are participating too


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s always good to see things from another perspective.


Other than bashing other people's posts what sort of perspective is he bringing to the forum? I don't see new and useful insights so much as low effort trolling.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Long distance rail is a questionable investment. In my opinion the country should make a decision to do it right and have multiple frequencies daily per route... or just pull the plug and leave it up to the states. What we have right now, isn’t worth saving imho.


It's fine to be unhappy with the service and to stop using it when it no longer appeals to you, but once it's gone it's probably gone forever. I'd rather leave a flawed network that future generations can hopefully build upon rather than leaving them nothing at all simply because it wasn't good enough for my needs.


----------



## jruff001

niemi24s said:


> And exactly what, pray tell, is that miniscule percentage?


Google is your friend, but I would say less than one percent would count as "miniscule."



> *Long Distance Travel Mode*
> Based on the 20012002 NHTS data, Americans take 2.6 billion long-distance trips per year, or 7.2 million trips per day. Almost 9 out of 10 long-distance trips are taken by personal vehicle,[2] and about 10 percent use public transportation modes. Over 7 percent of long-distance trips are taken by air, while 2 percent are by bus (including scheduled, charter, and other bus trips). *Train travel represents almost 1 percent of long-distance trips.* Table 1 in the Appendix shows the breakdown by mode.



(Note that is almost 20 years old. I spent a few minutes on Google to find it and is the first relevant cite I came across. I am not inclined to spend more time searching for something more recent as I don't generally do other people's research for free, but if you think the numbers have significantly changed, feel free to share a different cite.)


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## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's fine to be unhappy with the service and to stop using it when it no longer appeals to you, but once it's gone it's probably gone forever. I'd rather leave a flawed network that future generations can hopefully build upon rather than leaving them nothing at all simply because it wasn't good enough for my needs.



As a railfan and historian, I agree.


----------



## jruff001

Steve4031 said:


> I honestly wonder why this guy is participating in a forum intended to discuss and advocate for passenger trains.


Aren't I "discussing passenger trains"?

As to "advocate," as I have posted before, I love traveling by train and do so whenever it is realistic for me. A lot of posters do nothing but bash Amtrak - how on Earth is that "advocating"?

The posters constantly criticizing Amtrak's decisions have the luxury of living in a fantasy world without accountability and without the real-world constraints Amtrak management has to deal with. If injecting a little reality into the very inflexible party line here violates some forum rule, I'd rather hear that from a moderator and I will adjust my participation accordingly.


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## Steve4031

I needed to read a little more carefully, and my response to your earlier posts were out if line. When I get a moment I’ll contact an administrator and have it removed.


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## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Long distance rail is a questionable investment. In my opinion the country should make a decision to do it right and have multiple frequencies daily per route... or just pull the plug and leave it up to the states.
> 
> What we have right now, isn’t worth saving imho.





Devil's Advocate said:


> It's fine to be unhappy with the service and to stop using it when it no longer appeals to you, but once it's gone it's probably gone forever. I'd rather leave a flawed network that future generations can hopefully build upon rather than leaving them nothing at all simply because it wasn't good enough for my needs.


I'm torn between these two points of view. As Devil's Advocate says, once it's gone, it's probably gone for good, so fighting to preserve what little there is might be worthwhile. 

However I really question whether directly subsidizing the LD network is a good use of taxpayer funds. Also, currently Amtrak is the butt of many jokes and as such may be hindering other passenger rail opportunities in the U.S. as an example of why it can never work - so I fear that the current flawed network may actually be harming future possibilities. (Though this is probably a discussion for a different thread.)

That's why every time I can take a LD Amtrak train trip, I do so with gratitude and thinking it might be my last one.


----------



## Rasputin

jruff001 said:


> That's why every time I can take a LD Amtrak train trip, I do so with gratitude and thinking it might be my last one.


As I have said before, it seems like it is 1967-April 30, 1971 all over again.


----------



## railiner

Rasputin said:


> As I have said before, it seems like it is 1967-April 30, 1971 all over again.


I was around back then, and while frequencies have been cut, at least all the current routes are safe. For now...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Rasputin said:


> As I have said before, it seems like it is 1967-April 30, 1971 all over again.



More like the 1990’s all over again.


----------



## Qapla

> Almost 9 out of 10 long-distance trips are taken by personal vehicle, 7 percent of long-distance trips are taken by air, while 2 percent are by bus (including scheduled, charter, and other bus trips). Train travel represents almost 1 percent of long-distance trips.



Based on those numbers - we should discontinue planes, buses and trains - if we are going to base % of travel by a particular method as the measure.


However, when talking to actual people - I often hear things like "are there still busses" and "are there still trains" - many people that might use those methods are unaware they still operate. Advertising helps with this problem


----------



## chrsjrcj

I almost wonder if the low mode share for rail on long distance trips is because of the barebones national network. It really doesn't make sense to look at total mode share when you can look at Amtrak's own load factors and see that long distance trains are near the top of the list and point to the need for more frequency and routes. The 4th largest city in the US has service 3 days a week and the 5th largest has none at all.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

chrsjrcj said:


> I almost wonder if the low mode share for rail on long distance trips is because of the barebones national network. It really doesn't make sense to look at total mode share when you can look at Amtrak's own load factors and see that long distance trains are near the top of the list and point to the need for more frequency and routes. The 4th largest city in the US has service 3 days a week and the 5th largest has none at all.



And city pairs that are natural for rail transit have hardly anything. The Charlotte NC, Greenville SC, Atlanta GA, Birmingham AL should have multiple frequencies per day. Looking at JUST the Crescent there should be multiple daily trains from at least DC to Birmingham.
Boston to Birmingham
DC to Birmingham
existing train from NYC to NOL 
old Gulf Breeze Route from NYC-Mobile 
the proposed Crescent Star route from NYC to Dallas via Mississippi. 

Those 5 trains would be a great start along with a few corridor trains that run Charlotte - Atlanta - Birmingham - Huntsville.


----------



## Nick Farr

At present, the Amtrak LD routes serve three distinct populations:

1) People who want to enjoy the scenery or the vacation experience of the train.
2) People traveling to/from rural cities not served by other modes of transportation.
3) People who need to travel across the country but cannot or prefer not to drive or fly.

The NEC is the only true alternative to flying or driving. The big reason for this is the level of Public Transportation service in the major cities served on the NEC. You can take the T from your house in Boston, get on the NEC, then take Metrorail from Washington DC's Union Station to wherever you're going in DC. Same for NYC, Philly, etc.

One of the things people keep forgetting about Intercity corridors is that without comprehensive Public Transportation options and/or vibrant urban cores, people will just people will just drive instead of taking Intercity rail.

This is of course before you factor in reasons for there being connections between cities. Washington DC and NYC have the strongest connections between them among cities of that distance in the US.


----------



## ehbowen

Nick Farr said:


> One of the things people keep forgetting about Intercity corridors is that [ithout comprehensive Public Transportation options and/or vibrant urban cores, people will just people will just drive instead of taking Intercity rail.



Not necessarily. Neither Houston nor Los Angeles is known for extensive public transportation options, but that didn't stop our traveling party of 11 from having a great trip to Hollywood and Disneyland. We had friends drop us off at the station in Houston and we were able to rent a car at the station in L.A. (actually, two cars...one a Grand Caravan!)

Likewise, when a friend and I went to St. Louis for a conference family members dropped us off at HOS and the St. Louis station was within walking distance of our hotel. People are flexible; we can adapt as long as the basic building blocks are available.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

ehbowen said:


> Not necessarily. Neither Houston nor Los Angeles is known for extensive public transportation options, but that didn't stop our traveling party of 11 from having a great trip to Hollywood and Disneyland. We had friends drop us off at the station in Houston and we were able to rent a car at the station in L.A. (actually, two cars...one a Grand Caravan!)
> 
> Likewise, when a friend and I went to St. Louis for a conference family members dropped us off at HOS and the St. Louis station was within walking distance of our hotel. People are flexible; we can adapt as long as the basic building blocks are available.



Agreed. When I have visited Disneyland it was much easier to get there by train (transfer at Union Station to a Surfliner, take a free public transit bus to Disneyland / Convention Center hotel.) There is also a subway stop at Union Station.. is the Boston T any more extensive than LA's Subway? I'm not sure. I've used them both and they both get me where I need to go. 

New Orleans and Memphis both have simple streetcar systems with stops just outside the station. Hop on and you can get where you need to go in downtown. 

Portland and Chicago have great transit. The list could go on. 



Nick Farr said:


> 1) People who want to enjoy the scenery or the vacation experience of the train.
> 2) People traveling to/from rural cities not served by other modes of transportation.
> 3) People who need to travel across the country but cannot or prefer not to drive or fly.



All 3 of those for me. However, #1 shouldn't be a reason Amtrak exists. That's why scenic railroads exist. 

#2 .... sure that sounds good in theory but in reality for every small rural town that amtrak serves there's probably 100 just as rural towns without any transit options. 

#3 I do believe that there should be a way for people who cannot fly to travel comfortably across the country. Greyhound doesn't count, especially with all the transfers and "everybody off the bus for cleaning." In theory, a 1st class intercity bus could provide this as well but Amtrak gets the job done. 

I don't think that list is complete though. Anything that is a single overnight competes with flying for some people. Business travelers, college students, etc. Depending on the schedules, a single overnight train can work just as well and sometimes be more convenient than flying especially if the train reduces a long uber ride or strange transfer.


----------



## ehbowen

I've said this before but I'll say it again: If you are physically and financially blessed with the ability and means to own and operate an automobile, the entire North American continent is your oyster. But, if you are not so blessed, then at least at present you are not even a third-class citizen. I know that the majority are not going to leave their comfortable cars and/or fast airplanes. But we need to have *quality* alternatives.


----------



## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> At present, the Amtrak LD routes serve three distinct populations:
> 
> 1) People who want to enjoy the scenery or the vacation experience of the train.
> 2) People traveling to/from rural cities not served by other modes of transportation.
> 3) People who need to travel across the country but cannot or prefer not to drive or fly.
> 
> *The NEC is the only true alternative to flying or driving.* The big reason for this is the level of Public Transportation service in the major cities served on the NEC. You can take the T from your house in Boston, get on the NEC, then take Metrorail from Washington DC's Union Station to wherever you're going in DC. Same for NYC, Philly, etc.
> 
> One of the things people keep forgetting about Intercity corridors is that *without comprehensive Public Transportation options *and/or *vibrant urban cores*, people will just people will just drive instead of taking Intercity rail.


You have left out a significant group - those that want/need to go to another city but not "cross country". I would not consider Greenville, SC to Birmingham to be cross country, e.g.

It is not a scenic ride
It is served by both bus and airlines but neither is convenient or fast because there is no direct route
It is not cross country. It is strictly inter-city.
Neither is served by "good" public transportation
I might not own a car
Neither city is rural
I can use my car or ask someone to drive me to Greenville station and be met in Birmingham station by someone (or use taxi, Uber, Lyft and either/both ends).


----------



## jruff001

ehbowen said:


> Not necessarily. Neither Houston nor Los Angeles is known for extensive public transportation options, but that didn't stop our traveling party of 11 from having a great trip to Hollywood and Disneyland. We had friends drop us off at the station in Houston and we were able to rent a car at the station in L.A. (actually, two cars...one a Grand Caravan!)


Deleted. Apologies to ehbowen; I misread the post I was responding to.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> More like the 1990’s all over again.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking while trying to remember the last major round of cuts. If the pattern follows that era it might not all be bad news.


----------



## tricia

ehbowen said:


> What? Get real! You're saying that very few people would have friends/family to drive them to the airport (station) if they planned a long trip, and/or rent a car when they arrived at their destination? Which planet did you come from?
> ....



Amtrak's skeletal route map makes this a hard sell for many of us. I live a good two hours from the nearest Amtrak station.


----------



## tgstubbs1

tricia said:


> Amtrak's skeletal route map makes this a hard sell for many of us. I live a good two hours from the nearest Amtrak station.


Americans love cars. A good argument for Nationwide Auto Train.


----------



## Barb Stout

chrsjrcj said:


> I almost wonder if the low mode share for rail on long distance trips is because of the barebones national network. It really doesn't make sense to look at total mode share when you can look at Amtrak's own load factors and see that long distance trains are near the top of the list and point to the need for more frequency and routes. The 4th largest city in the US has service 3 days a week and the 5th largest has none at all.


I'm sure this is a big part of the low ridership issue. Also, which cities (4th and 5th largest) are you referring to?


----------



## ehbowen

tricia said:


> Amtrak's skeletal route map makes this a hard sell for many of us. I live a good two hours from the nearest Amtrak station.



Another bit of supporting evidence for the position that the cure to what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.



Barb Stout said:


> I'm sure this is a big part of the low ridership issue. Also, which cities (4th and 5th largest) are you referring to?



The fourth would be Houston...one train (_Sunset Limited_) which runs only three days a week. (There is a daily bus connection to/from the _Texas Eagle_ at Longview for/from points north.) The fifth would be Phoenix, Arizona, which has no rail service whatsoever although the same _Sunset Limited_ does stop in outlying Maricopa. The thre-day-a-week schedule and irregular performance, however, has played havoc with finding and keeping a Thruway operator to provide shuttle service to some more populous points in the metro area.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

tgstubbs1 said:


> Americans love cars. A good argument for Nationwide Auto Train.



That statement is quite dated.


----------



## jruff001

ehbowen said:


> What? Get real! You're saying that very few people would have friends/family to drive them to the airport (station) if they planned a long trip, and/or rent a car when they arrived at their destination?


My apologies, I misread your post. I'll delete my comment.


----------



## Barb Stout

ehbowen said:


> The fourth would be Houston...one train (_Sunset Limited_) which runs only three days a week. (There is a daily bus connection to/from the _Texas Eagle_ at Longview for/from points north.) The fifth would be Phoenix, Arizona, which has no rail service whatsoever although the same _Sunset Limited_ does stop in outlying Maricopa. The thre-day-a-week schedule and irregular performance, however, has played havoc with finding and keeping a Thruway operator to provide shuttle service to some more populous points in the metro area.


Oh yeah, Phoenix. How could I forget? I used to live there, well, in Tempe anyways. I remember checking into trains to go to 2 different places that I frequently visited when I lived in Tempe, Bismarck ND and Columbus OH, but found out there was no trains to these 3 places, so totally forgot about trains for the next several decades. For awhile, even flights to Bismarck were skimpy, but not as skimpy as trains.


----------



## Qapla

A thought came to mind ... it seems many want to "compare" the LD train to air travel for getting from point A to point B. While it is true that both forms of transportation provide that service - maybe too much importance is being put on that aspect of using either.

Most fly to get from one place to another quickly ... not because they "enjoy" it (yes, I know many who fly for their work and they only do it because they must) and a LD train cannot get them there that fast. So, it is proposed that trains are used by those who can't fly or just love trains.

Maybe, just maybe it is time to emphasize the relaxed pace of train travel. Just because many fly to get someplace fast does not mean they ALWAYS want to be in a hurry. They may just not be aware there is a plausible alternative and they don't want to drive - the passenger train fits the bill. Often, it is presented as a "last choice" or afterthought because "a plane is faster".

Recently I have seen a number of ads on TV about vacation spots. While they are touting their new safety protocol in this "new normal" none of them are promoting a "fast" vacation. They are promoting "r e l a x a t i o n".

Amtrak LD trains should/could be prompted as a "relaxed" way to travel ... not as a competition to the "fast plane" but an alternative to the "fast pace" that many people want to get away from at times.





ehbowen said:


> The fifth would be Phoenix, Arizona



This all depends on which data/list you look at. On some lists Phoenix is #5 and Philadelphia is #6 while other lists have them in the opposite order.

Here is a list:
1 New York
2 Los Angeles
3 Chicago
4 Houston
5 Phoenix
6 Philadelphia
7 San Antonio
8 San Diego
9 Dallas
10 San Jose
11 Austin
12 Jacksonville
13 Fort Worth
14 Columbus
15 Charlotte


Regardless of the exact order of these cities, looking at the list and the Amtrak service map - the largest city connections are dismal when it comes to passenger service and should be corrected.


----------



## Nick Farr

ehbowen said:


> Not necessarily. Neither Houston nor Los Angeles is known for extensive public transportation options,



This goes to show you how misinformed you are: Los Angeles has has has one of the most comprehensive and fastest growing public transit systems in North America. I can't think of a single method of Public Transportation that is not somehow employed somewhere in Los Angeles.

You're also making the wrong comparison by just looking at the city size. You really need to look at the entire Metropolitan Statistical Area to properly determine rail services to implement. Most of the 10 largest MSAs are covered by existing or planned intercity rail options.

1 New York City-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA MSA (Served by the NEC)
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA MSA (Planned California High Speed Rail, Existing Amtrak California services)
3 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin, IL-IN-WI MSA (Heart of the LD transportation network)
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX MSA (Planned Texas High Speed Rail)
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX MSA (Planned Texas High Speed Rail)
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV (Served by the NEC)
7 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA (Brightline, Silver Service, Palmetto)
8 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD MSA (Served by the NEC)

It isn't until you get to the 9th and 10th largest MSAs that rail services fall of a cliff in terms of planned and existing services:

9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Alpharetta, GA MSA (Palmetto)
10 Phoenix-Mesa-Chandler, AZ MSA (Debatable service)


----------



## Nick Farr

Qapla said:


> A thought came to mind ... it seems many want to "compare" the LD train to air travel for getting from point A to point B. While it is true that both forms of transportation provide that service - maybe too much importance is being put on that aspect of using either.



Amtrak's main competitive advantage in this era is being a much safer alternative to Air Travel as far as likelihood of contracting COVID.

Amtrak has attempted mass market advertising and it hasn't really gained much traction because of it. 

The problem is Amtrak on the corporate side has inherited a culture trapped in the past while charged with becoming profitable in the future. This keeps them from really pursuing advertising or directing things to niche markets where they might be able to grow ridership beyond what it is now. It also keeps them from pursuing entrepreneurial options to improve On-Board Services while also being hampered to cut them by Congressional interference.


----------



## toddinde

A couple of thoughts on food service. First, if we can save the trains, better food service will return. That will happen when Amtrak management gets serious about running the railroad. Second, improved food service will follow commitment to the long distance trains. Third, it will, like everything in Amtrak’s history, be driven by congressional mandate. Food service must be of a high quality, and be available to all passengers, coach or sleeper.


----------



## toddinde

jruff001 said:


> I'm torn between these two points of view. As Devil's Advocate says, once it's gone, it's probably gone for good, so fighting to preserve what little there is might be worthwhile.
> 
> However I really question whether directly subsidizing the LD network is a good use of taxpayer funds. Also, currently Amtrak is the butt of many jokes and as such may be hindering other passenger rail opportunities in the U.S. as an example of why it can never work - so I fear that the current flawed network may actually be harming future possibilities. (Though this is probably a discussion for a different thread.)
> 
> That's why every time I can take a LD Amtrak train trip, I do so with gratitude and thinking it might be my last one.


You need to stop with the nonsense about wise use of taxpayer money. Even with Amtrak’s highly inflated accounting, the long distance trains require a subsidy of $500 million a year. Do you have any idea of how absolutely infinitesimal that is in the scheme of the federal budget? As others have said, once they’re gone, they’re gone. All the investment taxpayers have made in stations, yards, terminals and maintenance facilities: Gone. Skilled workforce: Gone. These trains have been proven to produce economic activity in the towns they serve that vastly outweighs any subsidy. Remember, that $500 million in subsidy is creating billions in economic activity which goes away with the trains. If a train served 10,000 passengers a year at a station in a county with a population of 30,000, that is incredible market penetration. The long distance trains have been a whipping boy for those who want to divert resources to the never ending black hole that is the Northeast Corridor. I’m not willing to see the United States abandon intercity passenger rail while every other developed country in the world is expanding theirs, including long distance and overnight trains. All to save a few hundred million dollars in a multi-trillion federal budget. Ridiculous.


----------



## railiner

tgstubbs1 said:


> Americans love cars. A good argument for Nationwide Auto Train.


CN tried a variation of that across Canada, once upon a time...it wasn't too successful...even though the roads were not as good as now, and trains ran better.









CN's Car-Go-Rail and Auto-With-You Services


One of the most confusing HO scale cars ever produced was Bachmann's Auto Transporter in CN's black & white scheme. This was a total foob...




tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com




.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> Amtrak's main competitive advantage in this era is being a much safer alternative to Air Travel as far as likelihood of contracting COVID



Is it safer?


----------



## Nick Farr

toddinde said:


> ... the never ending black hole that is the Northeast Corridor...



The NEC is the only Amtrak Service that effectively competes with every other intercity transportation service, on top of being profitable.

I was strongly agreeing with you up to this point: The NEC is not the enemy of Passenger Rail in the US, it is the model.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> The NEC is the only Amtrak Service that effectively competes with every other intercity transportation service, on top of being profitable.
> 
> I was strongly agreeing with you up to this point: The NEC is not the enemy of Passenger Rail in the US, it is the model.



I haven’t seen any data that shows the NEC is profitable. Have you?


----------



## jruff001

toddinde said:


> As others have said, once they’re gone, they’re gone.


Perhaps you missed it, but I am one of those "others" who said that too.



> The long distance trains have been a whipping boy for those who want to divert resources to the never ending black hole that is the Northeast Corridor. I’m not willing to see the United States abandon intercity passenger rail while every other developed country in the world is expanding theirs, including long distance and overnight trains. All to save a few hundred million dollars in a multi-trillion federal budget. Ridiculous.


I think the NEC _IS_ a wise use of taxpayer money from a public policy perspective, along with other corridors in high-population-density areas where passenger rail in the U.S. actually makes sense. I know this goes against the conventional wisdom on this site where LD trains are viewed as much sexier.

And the intercity passenger rail systems of most other developed nations are a lot closer in many ways to the NEC than they are to Amtrak's LD trains. (I am thinking mainly Europe here. The LD trains in Canada and Australia may be even more useless from a public policy perspective than the Amtrak LD network is in the US.)


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Is it safer?



Much safer. While the trips are longer, you come into contact with far fewer people. In a sleeper car, you can cut down your risk to almost nothing.

You're not forced to queue with people except at terminus points, and at that it's for a very short while and avoidable.

Air flows more slowly in the trains and is exchanged with external air more often than on aircraft.


----------



## tgstubbs1

railiner said:


> CN tried a variation of that across Canada, once upon a time...it wasn't too successful...even though the roads were not as good as now, and trains ran better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CN's Car-Go-Rail and Auto-With-You Services
> 
> 
> One of the most confusing HO scale cars ever produced was Bachmann's Auto Transporter in CN's black & white scheme. This was a total foob...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Too bad they didn't do whatever the Amtrak Auto Train does. Of course Canada is a much less populated country and the VIA is in worse shape than Amtrak overall.


----------



## jiml

railiner said:


> CN tried a variation of that across Canada, once upon a time...it wasn't too successful...even though the roads were not as good as now, and trains ran better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CN's Car-Go-Rail and Auto-With-You Services
> 
> 
> One of the most confusing HO scale cars ever produced was Bachmann's Auto Transporter in CN's black & white scheme. This was a total foob...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


It was expensive for the time and one of the largest problems was the fact that passengers and vehicles did not board at the same time from the same location, as they do on Auto Train. It's been awhile so I'll defer to someone with a better memory of the process, but IIRC you'd drop your car at the auto loading depot the day before your travel, then you would have to take a taxi or transit both back home and to your station to catch the train. Same thing at the other end in that your car was not "there" when you disembarked (except at a couple of locations) and you either went out to a rail yard to get it or relied on a car rental company to deliver it. Too many "moving pieces", participants and variables to be successful. Auto Train has it right.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I haven’t seen any data that shows the NEC is profitable. Have you?





https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2019/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2019.pdf



The NEC had an operating surplus of $541.8 million for FY19


----------



## jiml

jruff001 said:


> The LD trains in Canada and Australia may be even more useless from a public policy perspective than the Amtrak LD network is in the US.)


It is unfair to compare LD trains in Canada with those in Australia. The latter are expensive "cruises" or "experiences", whereas only the Canadian really falls into that category. The bulk of VIA LD trains serve remote communities without great air or highway links. The Ocean is somewhat of a combination of both. Someone travelling from point-to-point in Northern Manitoba or Quebec is very similar to the same traveler going between remote stops on the Amtrak LD network. VIA is required to maintain some of these services - again not that different from Amtrak if they decided to cut a route such as the Empire Builder, for example.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

toddinde said:


> You need to stop with the nonsense about wise use of taxpayer money. Even with Amtrak’s highly inflated accounting, the long distance trains require a subsidy of $500 million a year. Do you have any idea of how absolutely infinitesimal that is in the scheme of the federal budget? As others have said, once they’re gone, they’re gone. All the investment taxpayers have made in stations, yards, terminals and maintenance facilities: Gone. Skilled workforce: Gone. These trains have been proven to produce economic activity in the towns they serve that vastly outweighs any subsidy. Remember, that $500 million in subsidy is creating billions in economic activity which goes away with the trains. If a train served 10,000 passengers a year at a station in a county with a population of 30,000, that is incredible market penetration. The long distance trains have been a whipping boy for those who want to divert resources to the never ending black hole that is the Northeast Corridor. I’m not willing to see the United States abandon intercity passenger rail while every other developed country in the world is expanding theirs, including long distance and overnight trains. All to save a few hundred million dollars in a multi-trillion federal budget. Ridiculous.



I like what you said! To that I would add: 

1] the incredible funding waste for pet projects that serve no one... the most famous being the 'bridge to nowhere' in Alaska. And has anyone checked out military spending???
2] Amtrak is supposed to be a transport service for the American citizens... with their tax dollars going to support it
3] Amtrak is deserving of its share of transportation funding just as for the roads and airports [which aren't expected to support themselves!!!]
4] To support a rail system is to emphasize emissions control with positive effect on the environment
5] Priority and accountability to the American people for money spent and wasted
6] Lagging behind far more efficient rail systems being developed in Asia, Europe, Africa, and India

I'll bet the combined wisdom of forum members could 'enlighten' Congress to the importance of Amtrak!


----------



## railiner

tgstubbs1 said:


> Too bad they didn't do whatever the Amtrak Auto Train does. Of course Canada is a much less populated country and the VIA is in worse shape than Amtrak overall.





jiml said:


> It was expensive for the time and one of the largest problems was the fact that passengers and vehicles did not board at the same time from the same location, as they do on Auto Train. It's been awhile so I'll defer to someone with a better memory of the process, but IIRC you'd drop your car at the auto loading depot the day before your travel, then you would have to take a taxi or transit both back home and to your station to catch the train. Same thing at the other end in that your car was not "there" when you disembarked (except at a couple of locations) and you either went out to a rail yard to get it or relied on a car rental company to deliver it. Too many "moving pieces", participants and variables to be successful. Auto Train has it right.


To be fair, Canada (and the rest of the US, for that matter), does not have the _very_ unique market that the Auto Train enjoys....


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2019/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2019.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> The NEC had an operating surplus of $541.8 million for FY19



How much of the $646.1 in Infrastructure was spent on the nec? 

How much of the $138 in stations and real estate was spent on the nec.

And we know $49 was spent on Acela 21 development. 

Highly doubtful that the nec is actually profitable.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Passenger rail profitability brings endless discussion with endless questions. I found this overview to be interesting...









What is the capitalist answer to rail passenger transportation being non financially profitable?


In developed countries, rail transport is usually provided at financial loss, and needs to be subsidised by governments. In countries who have refused to do so (mostly on the American continent),




politics.stackexchange.com




.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> How much of the $646.1 in Infrastructure was spent on the nec?



First of all, this is a stupid argument to be having. The NEC is not the enemy of the LD network. *Let's not buy into the false premise that Amtrak is designed to be a profitable enterprise as it's currently structured, any more than a trucking company would be profitable if it were forced to pay for the construction and upkeep of interstate highways.*

Duplicating the success of the NEC along similar corridors (like Brightline, California HSR and Texas HSR) is the best way of assuring there is a LD network that attracts more customers with more frequent service.

But anyway, a little accounting lesson: You have to break down infrastructure spending between routine maintenance (which is expensed immediately) and spending which is designed to last more than one financial period and is depreciated over time.

The $646.1 figure you're citing is capital spend, so it falls out of the operating category and is functionally irrelevant. The NEC is going to be more capital intensive because Amtrak owns most of that rail, where in the rest of the network it borrows rail and pays for access from other railroads. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

If we look at all operating infrastructure spend in FY19, Amtrak spent $83.6M total, on the core NEC services, with another $0.612M on ancillary Amtrak services against a total operating infrastructure spend of $352M.

So, for a service that accounts for $1.377 BILLION, or 41% of Amtrak's total operating revenue (including state service subsidies), you're talking about a 10% total operating infrastructure spend *where Amtrak owns its own rails*.

If we're talking about capital expenditures, if we go back to the Level 1 accounts, you might be able to craft an argument that the NEC is not profitable without Federal grants. This is a bit misleading, since Amtrak runs the NEC like a true railroad that owns most of its own infrastructure and lends it out to other mostly commuter railroads. So, if you wanted to make the argument the NEC is not profitable, you could say that the entire operation (trains and rails) is operating at a $131M deficit net of Federal Grants.

However--even this is inaccurate. Amtrak's operating revenue (not including Federal Grants) minus operating expenses is still a positive $541M dollars.

In other words, at the operating level, for *every dollar of revenue on the NEC, taxpayers put in $0.37 and of that, ALL of it goes into capital (i.e. non-operating) uses.*

Let's compare that to the National Network, where Amtrak mostly runs on leased rails.

Just looking at operating expenses, *for every dollar of revenue on the National Network* (which includes State Support), *Federal taxpayers put in $1.07. For every federal dollar, only $0.72 goes into capital uses--the rest is covering operating expenses Amtrak cannot recover through ticket revenue. *


----------



## bms

I also doubt the Northeast Corridor is really profitable. If it is, that's because Amtrak owns the tracks and can schedule trains and add service where it sees fit. It's apples and oranges compared to operating over tracks owned by another railroad, which reluctantly allows Amtrak to operate and doesn't prioritize Amtrak trains when dispatching.

edit: beat me to it!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> First of all, this is a stupid argument to be having.



I’m not arguing, you said something that is false. The NEC is not profitable.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

bms said:


> It's apples and oranges compared to operating over tracks owned by another railroad, which reluctantly allows Amtrak to operate and doesn't prioritize Amtrak trains when dispatching.



If the apples are grown on a farm that the farmer owns and has to maintain, and the oranges are grown on land that is owned by a giant Fortune 500 company that charges the orange farmers for use than you are correct it’s an apples to oranges comparison. 

Either way... the farmers have an expense.

Now what would be VERY interesting is if the same fruit growing company was in charge of both but lumped all of their expenses together and announced the apples were profitable and the oranges were losing money because nobody likes oranges anymore, except for a few experiential fruit customers and a few old people who grew up on oranges.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not arguing, you said something that is false. The NEC is not profitable.



I cited audited financials to back up my point. You've completely failed to cite any backup to your point.


----------



## Sauve850

Nick Farr said:


> Much safer. While the trips are longer, you come into contact with far fewer people. In a sleeper car, you can cut down your risk to almost nothing.
> 
> You're not forced to queue with people except at terminus points, and at that it's for a very short while and avoidable.
> 
> Air flows more slowly in the trains and is exchanged with external air more often than on aircraft.


Look forward to riding the train again instead of flying. I only ride in sleepers but not sold on your simple statement of "much safer". Im not saying you are wrong. Is there some data you can point us to?

Ive flown cross country twice this summer. June and end of August. Terminals in major cities were near empty as were the planes I flew on. Wasnt within 50 feet of anyone in the terminal waiting to board. CDC likes their hospital grade hepa filters 99.999%. MIT study said ( only what i read ) risk of Covid -19 from nearby passenger 1 in 4300. Amtrak was discussed but would have liked to see the risk numbers. They were not there unfortunately.

Again Id prefer a cross country trip on the train but cant find real data.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I cited audited financials to back up my point. You've completely failed to cite any backup to your point.



I cited numbers in the same financial report. 

To be fair, there is no way for either of us to prove our point because all the infrastructure is lumped together, so I shouldn’t have said your statement was false, it’s just not proven.

By the way, I’m not arguing against taxpayer money going to rail transportation, I think it should. But saying that the NEC is profitable and that long-distance travel loses money is misleading. You didn't start that, Amtrak leadership did.


----------



## mlanoue

ehbowen said:


> I've said this before but I'll say it again: If you are physically and financially blessed with the ability and means to own and operate an automobile, the entire North American continent is your oyster. But, if you are not so blessed, then at least at present you are not even a third-class citizen. I know that the majority are not going to leave their comfortable cars and/or fast airplanes. But we need to have *quality* alternatives.



And, this doesn't seem to be discussed much, but driving isn't a joy for some people. It's an exhausting chore. I hate the fact that there are lots of places I'd like to see, but I'd have to be on alert for 10 hours strapped to a chair at 70+ MPH making sure I don't hit somebody or get hit. I like to look out windows and not have to worry about every single second I'm in motion. I know driving is inevitable sooner or later, but if I can hop a train for 80 percent of the trip, then rent a car, that would be fantastic.


As ehbowen said above--there aren't enough alternatives.


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## 20th Century Rider

ehbowen said:


> I've said this before but I'll say it again: If you are physically and financially blessed with the ability and means to own and operate an automobile, the entire North American continent is your oyster. But, if you are not so blessed, then at least at present you are not even a third-class citizen. I know that the majority are not going to leave their comfortable cars and/or fast airplanes. But we need to have *quality* alternatives.



You make an excellent point! Here in Eugene Oregon, mass transit bus is made available free of cost to seniors and those who can't afford the fare. I don't see why the national government doesn't take care of its citizens as do the local governments. Yes, we need comfortable rail transit for everyone... and it should be made available at reduced rates for seniors and/or those who need assistance getting where they want to go. BTW... Europe with it's amazing rail systems does this. Why can't we?

What you said has my vote, and hopefully the vote of many others!


----------



## fdaley

mlanoue said:


> And, this doesn't seem to be discussed much, but driving isn't a joy for some people. It's an exhausting chore. I hate the fact that there are lots of places I'd like to see, but I'd have to be on alert for 10 hours strapped to a chair at 70+ MPH making sure I don't hit somebody or get hit. I like to look out windows and not have to worry about every single second I'm in motion.



This is pretty much exactly how I feel about driving. I don't mind an hour or three, but when we get to trips of six or eight hours, I'm just exhausted afterward. So it has always amazed me that so many people seem to equate driving with personal freedom. If I'm stuck behind the wheel for hours on end, I feel anything but free.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

fdaley said:


> This is pretty much exactly how I feel about driving. I don't mind an hour or three, but when we get to trips of six or eight hours, I'm just exhausted afterward. So it has always amazed me that so many people seem to equate driving with personal freedom. If I'm stuck behind the wheel for hours on end, I feel anything but free.


I think it's an age thing. When I was young I loved to drive. A friend and I drove 24+ hours without bed rest a few times. But these days I don't enjoy it anymore. Now I prefer to fly or ride the train instead. I don't mind driving once I get where I'm going but those days of endless hours staring at a distant horizon really start to wear on you after a while. When I was young it really did feel like freedom but now it just makes me wonder if I'm going crazy.


----------



## fdaley

toddinde said:


> Food service must be of a high quality, and be available to all passengers, coach or sleeper.



I completely agree that this needs to be the standard, and I'm OK with achieving it by congressional mandate if necessary. But I'd like to think that Amtrak's management would be smart enough to realize that good food is essential attracting and retaining customers for its long-distance trains.



toddinde said:


> First, if we can save the trains, better food service will return. That will happen when Amtrak management gets serious about running the railroad.



I am not at all certain that the current management will ever get serious about running the long-distance trains. Do you think that they'll shape up when they get direction from Congress? Or do we need a new management team?


----------



## ehbowen

jruff001 said:


> My apologies, I misread your post. I'll delete my comment.


I'm leaving my post visible, but I will offer an apology for being overly dramatic. It's a character flaw.


----------



## jruff001

ehbowen said:


> I'm leaving my post visible, but I will offer an apology for being overly dramatic. It's a character flaw.


Thanks, but FWIW I thought your response was quite reasonable based on what I wrote (which was a dumb post on my part because I misunderstood you!).


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> By the way, I’m not arguing against taxpayer money going to rail transportation, I think it should. But saying that the NEC is profitable and that long-distance travel loses money is misleading.


If either were truly "profitable" we probably wouldn't be having this conversation because we wouldn't need Amtrak - private businesses would be competing to operate the services and enjoy the profits, right?

Of course when talking about capital / infrastructure costs on the NEC it cannot be "profitable" any more than a stretch of (toll-free) highway can. But do "we" (meaning according to the general consensus of this board) at least agree that on an *operational earnings* basis, the NEC is profitable but the LD trains are not?

It seems to me that that is indeed the case (see the Amtrak financials Nick Farr linked to upthread) but if you do not, what is your reasoning and support? (And this is not specifically targeted to you, c-z; it is for the board in general. I just happen to be bootstrapping this question onto your post.)


----------



## Nick Farr

fdaley said:


> But I'd like to think that Amtrak's management would be smart enough to realize that good food is essential attracting and retaining customers for its long-distance trains.



Please bear in mind that the current law says Amtrak cannot lose money on food service. 

Congress complaining about the $16 hamburger is why we have flex dining.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I cited numbers in the same financial report.



You cited one number out of context and even that number had no bearing on the NEC profitability, as I showed you.

By any metric the NEC for FY19 was profitable. It brought in half a billion in passenger *operating profit*. If it were depreciating its capital spend over the useful life of that capital, it would still be profitable.

FY20 is going to be different, but I don't think any national network of travel will be profitable in FY20. 

The true question is, will the passenger dollar to Federal taxpayer subsidy of the NEC come anywhere close to the National Network subsidy of $1.07 for every passenger dollar earned?


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> But saying that the NEC is profitable and that long-distance travel loses money is misleading. You didn't start that, Amtrak leadership did.



But at the same time, you cannot argue these facts:

* The NEC has higher passenger numbers than any other mode of transit (including air travel) across its largest city pairs. The national network comes in last in all but a few city pairs between MSAs where another service is offered.

* In FY19, the NEC was subsidized to the tune of $0.37 for every dollar of ticket revenue. The national network (where Amtrak doesn't own rail) was subsidized to the tune of $1.07 for every dollar of ticket revenue--this isn't even counting state-level subsidies.


----------



## tonys96

toddinde said:


> A couple of thoughts on food service. First, if we can save the trains, better food service will return. That will happen when Amtrak management gets serious about running the railroad. Second, improved food service will follow commitment to the long distance trains. Third, it will, like everything in Amtrak’s history, be driven by congressional mandate. Food service must be of a high quality, and be available to all passengers, coach or sleeper.


Your post assumes too much. Way too much.


----------



## jruff001

toddinde said:


> Third, it will, like everything in Amtrak’s history, be driven by congressional mandate. Food service must be of a high quality, and be available to all passengers, coach or sleeper.


Part of me hopes that Congress has more important things to worry about than micromanaging what Amtrak serves in its dining cars.

Plus, if they do, I think there is a very good chance you might not like what the mandate is. It probably won't be to spend more money.


----------



## tgstubbs1

Didn't they use to have a special lounge car that had an outdoor section? Plus a glass lounge for smokers. 

Maybe people could eat outside, like they they do on the sidewalks in NY.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> But do "we" (meaning according to the general consensus of this board) at least agree that on an *operational earnings* basis, the NEC is profitable but the LD trains are not?
> 
> It seems to me that that is indeed the case (see the Amtrak financials Nick Farr linked to upthread) but if you do not, what is your reasoning and support?



The auto train, silvers, and Lake Shore NYC section should be profitable as well as the crescent NYC-Atlanta, and that's profitable by the true sense of the word. 

Amtrak does not provide us with the numbers we would need to be able to tell what routes are profitable or not. If you take out the host railroad fees, I imagine many if not most LD routes are profitable operationally.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> The auto train, silvers and Lake Shore NYC section should be profitable as well as the crescent nyc-Atlanta.



None of them are, per FY19 figures.

The Auto train brings in the most of any of the lines, with $78.1 in revenue and $84.8 in expenses. So from an operating standpoint, the Auto Train relies on about 8 cents of operating subsidy for every earned dollar.

I'm not sure what you meant by the "Lake Shore NYC" section, but the LSL relies on about $1.04 in operating subsidies for every earned dollar. I'm pretty sure you could not twist the numbers to make the NY State section show a profit.

The Crescent is running at $1.07 in subsidies for every earned dollar. 

The Sunset limited is the worst at $2.63 in subsidies for every earned dollar.

My personal favorite, the CZ runs at a $1.01 subsidy for every earned dollar.

By comparison on the NEC:
The Acela shows an operating profit of $0.51 for every earned dollar
The Regional Trains show an operating profit of $0.34 for every earned dollar








https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2019/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-FY2019-Final.pdf


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> My personal favorite, the CZ



We agree on one thing!!! 

If the trains that I named are not profitable that is Amtrak’s fault for not pricing them correctly. There is enough demand for those routes to price them so they run at a profit.


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak does not provide us with the numbers we would need to be able to tell what routes are profitable or not. If you take out the host railroad fees, I imagine many if not most LD routes are profitable operationally.


Yes it does. See Page 8 of the link to the financials (which Nick also just cut & pasted into a post).



crescent-zephyr said:


> If the trains that I named are not profitable that is Amtrak’s fault for not pricing them correctly. There is enough demand for those routes to price them so they run at a profit.


Based on the financials, LD revenue would half to roughly double to match operating expenses. Do you really think it is as simple as Amtrak just doubling average ticket prices (and other revenue sources) tomorrow? If so, why hasn't Amtrak done that already?


----------



## Qapla

The problem is, unlike other Gov't sponsored services, like highways, people expect Amtrak to "make a profit" while not expecting the same thing from other services. The "profit" comes with driving the economy in the areas where transportation methods take people so they can spend money. People accept this with road construction costs but ignore it when it comes to passenger rail.


----------



## tgstubbs1

Nick Farr said:


> None of them are, per FY19 figures.
> 
> The Auto train brings in the most of any of the lines, with $78.1 in revenue and $84.8 in expenses. So from an operating standpoint, the Auto Train relies on about 8 cents of operating subsidy for every earned dollar.
> 
> View attachment 19048
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2019/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-FY2019-Final.pdf


This is probably why they kept the Auto Train on schedule.

They should add Auto carriers to more of the LD trains. It's kind of a niche market but it would be a great service and nobody else could do it. 

Environmentalists should be behind it.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Yes it does. See Page 8 of the link to the financials (which Nick also just cut & pasted into a post).



Are those numbers before or after they pay the host railroads?


----------



## Nick Farr

jruff001 said:


> Based on the financials, LD revenue would half to roughly double to match operating expenses. Do you really think it is as simple as Amtrak just doubling average ticket prices (and other revenue sources) tomorrow? If so, why hasn't Amtrak done that already?



Here's where we get into Revenue Management which Amtrak does not do very well at all.

The Bucket Charts that you see here every so often are a reflection of archaic practices in the industry, partially due to regulatory burden and partially due to a lack of investment in revenue management.

If you were to double prices, you'd probably outright kill utilization. What Amtrak should be doing is experimenting with raising prices on selected routes/configuations based on internet searches, interest, booking patterns, etc. Right now the buckets are (presumably) set somewhat manually and in advance. There's a certain number of low bucket seats, then once those are sold they roll to the next bucket, etc. Looking at the bucket charts, you can see these are being adjusted periodically.

However, airlines do this algorithmically. Airlines will, upon sensing more interest in a route (say because of some conference announced somewhere), will immediately raise prices to whatever they think someone will pay for the seat.

Airlines also aggressively discount open seats to fill planes, as well as have good data to predict when people will purchase last minute seats. Amtrak does not.

Airlines will also offer seat upgrades when available. Amtrak does not (at least not widely in practice. Guest rewards members have upgrade coupons, but I'm not seeing where they'll offer discount roomettes to coach passengers or offer to upgrade roomette passengers to bedrooms to increase revenue.)

Amtrak also has the problem of many connection options that it has not learned to optimize. On the CZ for example, you can get a roomette from Denver to Granby. However, that might prevent someone from buying a roomette from Chicago to Emeryville. 

The cost of just adding another sleeper car is also not feasible on LD routes under the current rules. If there's more demand between Denver and Salt Lake for the holidays, a train still has to lug the car and SCA from Chicago to Emeryville and back.

The idea of 3x weekly service is to cut operating expenses to meet passenger load.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> The idea of 3x weekly service is to cut operating expenses to meet passenger load.



Which Amtrak has proven does not work. Ridership decreases with less than daily service.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Are those numbers before or after they pay the host railroads?



After. 

Operating Loss is defined as GAAP Net Loss *excluding* non-cash pension costs and other retirement employment benefits, state capital payment amortization and income statement items reported with capital or debt results or other grants.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> After.
> 
> Operating Loss is defined as GAAP Net Loss *excluding* non-cash pension costs and other retirement employment benefits, state capital payment amortization and income statement items reported with capital or debt results or other grants.



Exactly. And what is Amtrak paying to use the northeast corridor?


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Are those numbers before or after they pay the host railroads?


Not sure what you mean by "before or after," but host RR payments are included in train operating expenses.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Which Amtrak has proven does not work. Ridership decreases with less than daily service.



True, but will ridership revenue drop by 57%? We really won't know until the October results are in. 

My hunch, given the COVID numbers is that the passenger revenue will stay relatively steady after the drop in service, given the customer base already using the trains.


----------



## Exvalley

The study that argued that less than daily service costs Amtrak money in the long run was based on pre-Covid ridership numbers. It is not relevant in a post-Covid world.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Exactly. And what is Amtrak paying to use the northeast corridor?



Amtrak owns most of the NEC and leases part of it out, providing a revenue stream for the usage of its assets.

Given that Amtrak inherited most of the below-the-wheels assets of the NEC and gets grains to improve that infrastructure (just like freight railroads get occasional grants to improve their infrastructure), the cost of what Amtrak pays to use/maintain its own infrastructure is very hard to quantify given Amtrak's present arrangement.

That being said, from an operating standpoint, the NEC runs at a surplus from which it can improve its own infrastructure.

The costs that the LD trains pay to use host railroads are roughly equivalent to fuel costs, and each of those costs separately run at roughly 14% on average of what labor costs are on those lines.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> the cost of what Amtrak pays to use/maintain its own infrastructure is very hard to quantify given Amtrak's present arrangement.



Exactly. For example... Acela should be paying 100% for everything that Amtrak is paying to operate over 125 mph trains.


----------



## jruff001

The hatred for the NEC on this site is . . . weird.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> The hatred for the NEC on this site is . . . weird.



Who’s hating?


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> Exactly. For example... Acela should be paying 100% for everything that Amtrak is paying to operate over 125 mph trains.



Again, Acela is not the enemy. It's what we want everywhere. Acela is a consistent net contributor to capital expenses, to the tune of $89.4M dollars, even from October 2019 through to now--which covers the entire pandemic crisis. 

Why do you have it out for the NEC? If you really believe in LD rail, I would think you'd want to duplicate the NEC's success in other corridors throughout the US (Chicago - Detroit, San Francisco - Los Angeles, Indianapolis/Cincinatti/Columbus/Cleveland/Pittsburgh)


----------



## crescent-zephyr

??? I love Acela. Ive ridden it many times.

I’m not against Acela or the NEC but Acela operating costs should be taken out of Acela revenue. (And regional trains should have infrustructure take out of revenue just like host railroad fees for LD trains.) 

There’s only 1 service, Acela Express, that requires any tracks be kept up to FRA Class 8 standards. Shouldn’t Acela Revenue be paying for that? Why shouldn’t it?

OR 

Amtrak shouldn’t count the host railroad fees as operating costs for LD trains.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Based on the financials, LD revenue would half to roughly double to match operating expenses. Do you really think it is as simple as Amtrak just doubling average ticket prices (and other revenue sources) tomorrow? If so, why hasn't Amtrak done that already?



Not at all... The Auto Train lost 6.7 million. That means every time an Auto Train departs it loses $9,178. The Auto train has a capacity of 600 passengers... let's say it always runs at 50% capacity. That's $30 extra per passenger to make the Auto Train break even.... hardly double the price (and only $15 extra per passenger if the train were to always run at 100% capacity.). 

Obviously the Auto Train is the only train where the math is that easy.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not against Acela or the NEC but Acela operating costs should be taken out of Acela revenue.



They are. Acela ticket revenue in FY19 and FY20 contributed way more than their relative share to capital and infrastructure costs on the NEC, along with all the other legacy pension costs.

Bear in mind that Amtrak isn't even the only user of the NEC. MARC, SEPTA and NJ Transit are among other railroads hosted by Amtrak.

Also, costs of trackage for all Amtrak services are *miniscule* when taking into account all of the total operating costs of each line. 

Further, the Federal Government more than subsidized the costs of Acela development from the ballast on up--as it should have. That's not a knock on Acela, that's something they should repeat throughout the US.

If we want LD trains to run on time, perhaps we should shift some of that billion dollar operational spend and put it into sidings, double tracks and other line enhancements that would allow for Amtrak to bypass freight per law.


----------



## Willbridge

jiml said:


> Yeah, that's what I was thinking while trying to remember the last major round of cuts. If the pattern follows that era it might not all be bad news.


Each round of cuts has made the map more skeletal and placed more fixed costs on the remaining trains, setting the stage for the next round of cuts. As Canada has demonstrated. The only cuts I can think of that seemed justified by low ridership were some in the Carter round that were hampered by poor infrastructure.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Willbridge said:


> Each round of cuts has made the map more skeletal and placed more fixed costs on the remaining trains, setting the stage for the next round of cuts. As Canada has demonstrated. The only cuts I can think of that seemed justified by low ridership were some in the Carter round that were hampered by poor infrastructure.



Continuing minimization begets depreciation and continuing depreciation begets minimization... All this may be halted with the fresh outlook of a new administration who writes the ways and means of change with a desperately needed cash infusion... that will bring maximization with increased utilization. Hmmm... that sounds good to me!


----------



## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> But at the same time, you cannot argue these facts:
> 
> * The NEC has higher passenger numbers than any other mode of transit (including air travel) across its largest city pairs. The national network comes in last in all but a few city pairs between MSAs where another service is offered.
> 
> * In FY19, the NEC was subsidized to the tune of $0.37 for every dollar of ticket revenue. The national network (where Amtrak doesn't own rail) was subsidized to the tune of $1.07 for every dollar of ticket revenue--this isn't even counting state-level subsidies.


And the cause of these "facts"?

Amtrak decides how much of a station's/maintenance/personnel/etc costs to allocate to each train. There have been lots of complaints that this allocation discriminates against the LD by over-allocating costs to those trains. Amtrak apparently is not very open on how allocation is done.

The more trains that run (to a certain point) along the route, the lower the cost per train. So a single Crescent in each direction has to collectively cover the costs of Birmingham station e.g. but two trains in each direction would not cost twice as much as those costs contain a lot of fixed costs. Similarly, 3X services/week prior to Covid were wasteful loss of potential income.

More cars on a train may result in a large increase in revenue for a small increase in cost but Amtrak doesn't have the capital (nor can it float bonds/sell stock) to buy more cars. Every time you see a LD train sold out for sleeper rooms, you see money left on the table. Airlines can't enlarge their planes but they can roll out spare bigger ones and add flights during high season because they have the ability to show investors and bondholders and banks that the extra capital money can buy planes that can be amortized in fewer years than they cost to purchase and maintain. Amtrak doesn't seem to have the ability to convince congress that this is the case nor the ability to lease additional cars as airlines can lease planes.

I'm sure the Amtrak delays caused by the class I railroads result in a significant cost due to lost sales, extra pay for employees, etc. but congress has never fixed the issue in spite of the fact that the railroads were required by the original agreement to give Amtrak priority as part of shedding their passenger services.

Becoming more profitable (or reducing loss) does not necessarily require cutting services nor increasing fares. It also can be done by increasing revenue by increasing services. Amtrak has not pursued that alternative partially as a result of their internal management and partially as a result of congressional action (or lack thereof).

It was mentioned in this thread about how close Amtrak is to breaking even on the Auto Train and how an increase of $30/passenger would eliminate the loss. But what would the result of adding an additional car be when the train is likely to be close to full in increasing revenue vs increasing prices per person?

Yes, figures don't lie but liars can manipulate figures.


----------



## Nick Farr

me_little_me said:


> And the cause of these "facts"?
> 
> Amtrak decides how much of a station's/maintenance/personnel/etc costs to allocate to each train. There have been lots of complaints that this allocation discriminates against the LD by over-allocating costs to those trains. Amtrak apparently is not very open on how allocation is done.



All the stations on the NEC fall under NEC accounts.

For the National Network, there's previously been some relatively immaterially improper capital cost allocation going on between State Supported services and Long Distance trains, but the last few audited financial reports have mostly cleared those out.

You could argue there's some improper allocation with pension and legacy coat obligations that technically predate Amtrak, but that's not going to change either of the facts cited above or move the operating subsidy numbers.



me_little_me said:


> Every time you see a LD train sold out for sleeper rooms, you see money left on the table.



Incorrect. While there are occasions where adding a sleeper car may be warranted, the cost of changing the consist, adding an SCA, possibly adding an engine or recalculating the fuel load AND the costs of lugging an empty car back to Chicago just plunge the train into further losses.

Amtrak needs to improve its revenue management practices and customer relations in order to maximize profits on the LD lines before they go switching around consists.



me_little_me said:


> I'm sure the Amtrak delays caused by the class I railroads result in a significant cost due to lost sales, extra pay for employees, etc. but congress has never fixed the issue in spite of the fact that the railroads were required by the original agreement to give Amtrak priority as part of shedding their passenger services.



Correct, except for the fact that it's the job of the Department of Justice to sanction the railroads according to the law. 



me_little_me said:


> Becoming more profitable (or reducing loss) does not necessarily require cutting services nor increasing fares. It also can be done by increasing revenue by increasing services.



Becoming profitable should not be a mandate of Amtrak.

However, the load factors on the LD trains from their inception to now shows that you cannot gain more revenue from running the same old products the same old way. 

Increasing the LD network services is kind of like saying let's spend all our money on a trip to Mars when we could invest in building a base on the moon and reliable transportation to space.

The LD Network cannot thrive or add new service unless it becomes a luxury land cruise product (ala the Auto Train), or becomes a viable link between other railroad corridors.

The LD Network exists because of Congressional Nostalgia and Federal funding.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> The LD Network cannot thrive or add new service unless it becomes a luxury land cruise product (ala the Auto Train), or becomes a viable link between other railroad corridors.



1- the auto train is not the definition of a land cruise or luxury. It is a niche and unique service. 

2- LD trains do not need to be a link between corridors to thrive, although that can help. IMHO, the LD trains need more frequency on existing routes where it makes sense. The best example of this is the East Coast with Silver Star, Silver Meteor, and Silver Palm / Palmetto all serving the same major cities daily at different times but each route serving unique towns (the Silver Palm used to go through Ocala... I regret not riding that route before it was cut back to its' present route.)


----------



## jruff001

me_little_me said:


> Every time you see a LD train sold out for sleeper rooms, you see money left on the table.


Yet there are a lot of posts here screaming about sleeping cars being too expensive and how their high fares prove that evil Amtrak management wants to drive away customers to make LD trains fail.


----------



## railiner

I find it rather interesting on how the differential in price between 'coach' and 'first class' has evolved thru the years...

If you compare both railroad and airline fares today, with those say, back in the '60's....the difference is dramatic. Back in the '60's stepping up from coach to first class was not very much, although it probably seemed to be, at the time. Today, stepping up is a huge difference in almost every case...


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> 1- the auto train is not the definition of a land cruise or luxury. It is a niche and unique service.



If an express "take your car to Disneyworld" train that still has Full-Service dining isn't a land cruise product, what exactly is?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

railiner said:


> I find it rather interesting on how the differential in price between 'coach' and 'first class' has evolved thru the years...
> 
> If you compare both railroad and airline fares today, with those say, back in the '60's....the difference is dramatic. Back in the '60's stepping up from coach to first class was not very much, although it probably seemed to be, at the time. Today, stepping up is a huge difference in almost every case...


The pricing differential between an Amtrak coach seat and roomette is widening, while the service level for that roomette has been sharply diminishing. But I guess Amtrak can do that because passengers step up with a hand full of money to pay for such; accepting that lowered level of service. It's the old 'supply and demand' rule --- the quality of what is supplied can deteriorate 'successfully' if the demand remains in tact. 

So 'what's in this for me?' Absolutely a negative nothing.


----------



## Nick Farr

20th Century Rider said:


> But I guess Amtrak can do that because passengers step up with a hand full of money to pay for such; accepting that lowered level of service.



The most inelastic demand for sleeper trains (the one-and-dones and those who travel by sleeper train regardless) aren't really "opting in" to a lower level of service. The bucket listers probably have no idea and the captive users simply don't care because they don't have any other options.

The other reason is--*we're blaming Amtrak for what is fundamentally a congressional mandate.*

Unless the Senate takes up the bill demanding Amtrak restore proper food service, we're really just yelling into a void.


----------



## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> If an express "take your car to Disneyworld" train that still has Full-Service dining isn't a land cruise product, what exactly is?


The beginning of a smart idea to take advantages of trains over the alternate transportation alternatives of bus, plane, and self-drive.


----------



## PVD

It is hugely useful for snowbirds that can load up their cars with things going back and forth. You see that every year in the fall and spring ridership patterns.


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## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> If an express "take your car to Disneyworld" train that still has Full-Service dining isn't a land cruise product, what exactly is?



People don’t take their car on a land cruise or a regular cruise. (American orient express is the only land cruise rail option we’ve had in this country, as well as their rebranded Grande Luxe.)

The fact that they are taking their car actually proves they are using it as part of their transit. The point of the auto train is the auto train does the driving for you.


----------



## me_little_me

Nick Farr said:


> All the stations on the NEC fall under NEC accounts.
> 
> For the National Network, there's previously been some relatively immaterially improper capital cost allocation going on between State Supported services and Long Distance trains, but the last few audited financial reports have mostly cleared those out.


It is my understanding LD trains are allocated costs from the NEC for their use of it. That would include station, electric engine cost, personnel, etc. Do you have other information that none of the costs or only a fair share of them are allocated to LD for use of these?



Nick Farr said:


> Incorrect. While there are occasions where adding a sleeper car may be warranted, the cost of changing the consist, adding an SCA, possibly adding an engine or recalculating the fuel load AND the costs of lugging an empty car back to Chicago just plunge the train into further losses.



No, correct. Sure there are costs associated with adding a car but the income should be much higher than the added cost. And, that's a silly argument about adding an engine as even Amtrak would know that, if an additional engine, diner or lounge car were required because the existing one(s) were at their limit, it would likely not be a candidate for an added car. I generalized so I'll agree with you that it is not true in ALL cases.



Nick Farr said:


> Amtrak needs to improve its revenue management practices and customer relations in order to maximize profits on the LD lines before they go switching around consists.


No! They need to "improve its revenue management practices and customer relations in order to maximize profits..." but there is a limit to what that will accomplish. They need to GROW into breaking even or reduce loss, not cut to do so or they might as well cut to zero which would reduce all losses to zero but then there would be no Amtrak. They need to start thinking of growth ideas. Anderson thought of more intercity trains but he wanted to do it at the expense of LD. Amtrak lost an opportunity IMHO to implement the concept of growth by not having Orlando-Tampa-Miami coach service or just Tampa-Miami on days the Star doesn't run until full daily service is restored on the Star. They even have the engines and cars available from the tar trains that are not being used.



Nick Farr said:


> Becoming profitable should not be a mandate of Amtrak.


I never said that. I said "Becoming more profitable *(or reducing loss)* [Bold added in this post] does not necessarily require cutting services nor increasing fares. It also can be done by increasing revenue by increasing services."
But it doesn't matter which of those you are talking about. They must increase revenue by increasing services whether that means more trains, more cities on a route, rerouting, offering additional onboard services to bring in more income, etc. They tried that with BC on the LD routes but BC on Amtrak is already inconsistent and it apparently did not work well enough to keep. I have to say they at least TRIED SOMETHING that didn't involve cutting.



Nick Farr said:


> However, the load factors on the LD trains from their inception to now shows that you cannot gain more revenue from running the same old products the same old way.


True except they are not trying to get more revenue. All they try is cutting service. (Covid issues apart).



Nick Farr said:


> Increasing the LD network services is kind of like saying let's spend all our money on a trip to Mars when we could invest in building a base on the moon and reliable transportation to space.
> 
> The LD Network cannot thrive or add new service unless it becomes a luxury land cruise product (ala the Auto Train), or becomes a viable link between other railroad corridors.
> 
> The LD Network exists because of Congressional Nostalgia and Federal funding.


Pfftt! "all our money"? No, some of our money. Just like NASA does.
No, it does not require land cruise product. But adding limited "Land Cruise", as you so nicely put it, is offering an add-on product to existing trains that MIGHT increase revenue to REDUCE LOSSES.
It is not nostalgia. It is a service, just like local transit. It deserves federal funding like other interstate services.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Nick Farr said:


> If an express "take your car to Disneyworld" train that still has Full-Service dining isn't a land cruise product, what exactly is?


Off the top of my head I'd say Rocky Mountaineer's GoldLeaf Service and The Canadian's Prestige Class. Although those services might not be long for this world. Most of the traditional land cruise services died off with the 2008 US mortgage fraud recession, including the long lived Orient Express.


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> The fact that they are taking their car actually proves they are using it as part of their transit.



They're taking their car to/from a vacation destination where having a car helps enable the vacation.


----------



## Qapla

I have not ridden the AT to see "first hand" ... but, I would venture to say that the majority of those using the AT are NOT going to Disney. It is not really that practical to take your car all the way to Florida on a train for a few days stay at an over-priced hotel. Flying in quicker and easier. Many who want a car while at the theme parks simply rent one when they get there.

Most I have seem who have their own car with them drove it there themselves - they did not take the AT

Have you taken the AT? Have you been to Disney? Have you surveyed those who have used the AT to verify that the AT is only being used as a "land cruise for Disney"?

Keep in mind, some of us actually live in Florida ... not Michigan


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Nick Farr said:


> They're taking their car to/from a vacation destination where having a car helps enable the vacation.


If there's a strong market and profitability it will survive.


----------



## Qapla

Nick Farr said:


> They're taking their car to/from a vacation destination where having a car helps enable the vacation.



And what's wrong with that?

It should be a market that is addresses and sought after - not criticized as you seem to be doing


----------



## tricia

20th Century Rider said:


> If there's a strong market and profitability it will survive.



That sounds like magical thinking to me.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> They're taking their car to/from a vacation destination where having a car helps enable the vacation.



I have no clue what point you are trying to make. Yes many people that travel are traveling to go on a vacation?

If I’m taking a plane to go to Disney word / land... that doesn’t make that plane an “air cruise” - it’s still a way to get to the destination.

The only time I’ve taken an overnight train purely for the train was when I rode Pullman Rail Journeys. (Pullman to Chicago and then mega bus home... what a contrast!).

Even when I took VIA rail it was just a more roundabout way of getting to the west coast.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Auto train has been the most profitable LD train in the country... easy to understand because...
1] It transports autos from an extremely large and high density area... to a very popular vacation destination that requires a car to get around. 
2] It eliminates driving through a lengthly congested corridor
3] Large number of consumers have the financial means to pay for this elective convenience


----------



## Nick Farr

crescent-zephyr said:


> I have no clue what point you are trying to make. Yes many people that travel are traveling to go on a vacation?



I'm saying that vacations are why the highest revenue passengers take LD trains. They're not public transportation like airplanes or the NEC are. 

This is why I'm saying the classic LD routes need to be right sized to their respective markets.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Auto train has been the most profitable LD train in the country... easy to understand because...
> 1] It transports autos from an extremely large and high density area... to a very popular vacation destination that requires a car to get around.
> 2] It eliminates driving through a lengthly congested corridor
> 3] Large number of consumers have the financial means to pay for this elective convenience



Don’t forget the unique snowbirds. Having your own car vs. a rental doesn’t matter too much for a 1 week vacation. But the snowbirds own property and will be staying for a month or 2, it makes sense that they want their own vehicle. 

On top of that, they will be at the age where the long drive is not appealing to them.

(I call them snowbirds but of course they can go back and forth between the properties whenever they want to, it’s not strictly seasonal).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Nick Farr said:


> I'm saying that vacations are why the highest revenue passengers take LD trains. They're not public transportation like airplanes or the NEC are.
> 
> This is why I'm saying the classic LD routes need to be right sized to their respective markets.



The definition of public transportation is-

“buses, trains, subways, and other forms of transportation that charge set fares, run on fixed routes, and are available to the public.”

You don’t get to define it based on why people choose to use it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Don’t forget the unique snowbirds. Having your own car vs. a rental doesn’t matter too much for a 1 week vacation. But the snowbirds own property and will be staying for a month or 2, it makes sense that they want their own vehicle.
> 
> On top of that, they will be at the age where the long drive is not appealing to them.
> 
> (I call them snowbirds but of course they can go back and forth between the properties whenever they want to, it’s not strictly seasonal).


Excellent points to add to that list!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

20th Century Rider said:


> Excellent points to add to that list!



It’s not the same as the snowbird market... but I wonder if a California version of Auto Train would work. California is all about “car culture” and I could see a San Diego to Sacramento run being quite popular.


----------



## pennyk

crescent-zephyr said:


> Don’t forget the unique snowbirds. Having your own car vs. a rental doesn’t matter too much for a 1 week vacation. But the snowbirds own property and will be staying for a month or 2, it makes sense that they want their own vehicle.
> 
> On top of that, they will be at the age where the long drive is not appealing to them.
> 
> (I call them snowbirds but of course they can go back and forth between the properties whenever they want to, it’s not strictly seasonal).


There are numerous reasons why people take the Auto Train. Maybe almost as many as are reading this thread.

I agree that many of the Auto Train passengers are snow birds, who usually stay in Florida for at least several months, who want their car at their destination. 

I am a Floridian and have taken the Auto Train many times when we visited my sister and mother-in-law who live(d) in the mid-Atlantic/northeast. I recall in the mid-90's taking the Auto Train when my ex and I ran the Marine Corps marathon. I have seen "bikers" take their motorcycles on the Auto Train to go to Bike Week at Daytona. 

AlanB (of this forum) used to take the Auto Train with family members to visit Disney. 

I no longer want a vehicle when visiting the northeast or mid-Atlantic. However, a few years ago, I wanted to ride the Auto Train without a car (for fun). A friend of mine was taking the AT to visit his mother in Florida. I took the Silver Star up to DC, then metro to Tyson's Corner, where I met my friend and we drove to Lorton. I made my own reservation on the AT and linked it to his car. Since he wanted to ride SunRail, he drove to a SunRail station, and after riding for a while, I got off at the station closest to my home and walked home. It is not easy to take the AT without a car, but that scenario worked well for me.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

pennyk said:


> There are numerous reasons why people take the Auto Train. Maybe almost as many as are reading this thread.
> 
> I agree that many of the Auto Train passengers are snow birds, who usually stay in Florida for at least several months, who want their car at their destination.



Oh indeed! Lots of reasons to take the auto train. When I was young I begged my parents to take the auto train so I could eat in a full dome dining car. They said no. (years later I got to fulfill that dream on the Hoosier State! Ha).

I have friends from Virginia who took the auto train down to Florida and then drove back through Georgia, Tennessee, the Carolinas etc, so it was part of their driving vacation.


----------



## Dakota 400

crescent-zephyr said:


> I have friends from Virginia who took the auto train down to Florida and then drove back through Georgia, Tennessee, the Carolinas etc, so it was part of their driving vacation.



In January, this was one reason why I chose to use the Auto Train. I drove to Florida and had the enjoyment of having my new car to use while I was there. Then, I rode the Auto Train North so that I could visit relatives in Maryland before driving home to Ohio.

I enjoy driving and I enjoy riding Amtrak. I was able to include both of the things that I enjoy during what will probably be the only vacation I have during 2020.


----------



## tgstubbs1

20th Century Rider said:


> Auto train has been the most profitable LD train in the country... easy to understand because...
> 1] It transports autos from an extremely large and high density area... to a very popular vacation destination that requires a car to get around.
> 2] It eliminates driving through a lengthly congested corridor
> 3] Large number of consumers have the financial means to pay for this elective convenience


I think the price is worth it. Saving fuel and wear and tear on the car, not to mention traveling at night.


----------



## tgstubbs1

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s not the same as the snowbird market... but I wonder if a California version of Auto Train would work. California is all about “car culture” and I could see a San Diego to Sacramento run being quite popular.


I think an overnighter between SoCal and the bay area would become very popular. 
I know there are plans for HS rail to Vegas. There were plans for auto transport there a few years back but maybe they were worried about people drinking and driving.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s not the same as the snowbird market... but I wonder if a California version of Auto Train would work. California is all about “car culture” and I could see a San Diego to Sacramento run being quite popular.


A few interesting possibilities in Cali... certainly a run from LA right up into the peninsula using existing trackage dropping folks off right at the metro doorstep could be appealing to many... eliminating the bridges and all the road congestion... perfect short overnight trip.
Another possibility is the LA - Las Vegas corridor... traffic not so bad there... but a discretionary spending choice for those who want to start the party before they get there???


----------



## Qapla

Nick Farr said:


> I'm saying that vacations are why the highest revenue passengers take LD trains.



And what is wrong with serving this market? They buy tickets and spend money - does it really matter why they are going to where they are going?



Nick Farr said:


> They're not public transportation like airplanes or the NEC are.



Wait ... are you saying that no one takes a plane because they are going on vacation?

I live in Florida and people come here to vacation - and they do this all year round. That is why it is referred to as a "tourist state". Many people make their income in the tourism industry. Should we just ignore that industry here in Florida because it is not "business" related ... it is tourism?

During the winter months it has, at times, gotten quite cold and caused icing on the runways. Florida is a warm state - thus the nickname "sunshine state" and, as such, we don't have de-icing equipment and snowplows at the airports like the northern states do. When these conditions cause a disruption of the air travel out of the state and strands people at the airports it makes news. The TV stations send reporters with cameras to the airports and interview the stranded passengers. Guess what?!? MOST of them are here on VACATION not business. Seems the planes engage in "air cruises" so why shouldn't Amtrak attract and encourage land cruises?

To downplay tourist business as "only [land/sea/air]cruises" is to ignore a well paying and significant portion of travel dollars - land, sea or air!


----------



## me_little_me

tgstubbs1 said:


> I think an overnighter between SoCal and the bay area would become very popular.
> I know there are plans for HS rail to Vegas. There were plans for auto transport there a few years back but maybe they were worried about people drinking and driving.


So better to make them drink and drive all the way from Southern California? Not likely the reason. In fact, Las Vegas without a car is like NYC with one. We were there last December and it was too hot to go even from one casino to another without a car - and we don't gamble!
We looked for an auto-plane but some members of this forum thought it was an air-cruise and nixed it.


----------



## tgstubbs1

me_little_me said:


> We looked for an auto-plane but some members of this forum thought it was an air-cruise and nixed it.



Like this? 








File:Whereismyflyingcar.jpg - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org






Or this?








File:CH54B and M551 Sheridan.jpg - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## lordsigma

Qapla said:


> I have not ridden the AT to see "first hand" ... but, I would venture to say that the majority of those using the AT are NOT going to Disney. It is not really that practical to take your car all the way to Florida on a train for a few days stay at an over-priced hotel. Flying in quicker and easier. Many who want a car while at the theme parks simply rent one when they get there.
> 
> Most I have seem who have their own car with them drove it there themselves - they did not take the AT
> 
> Have you taken the AT? Have you been to Disney? Have you surveyed those who have used the AT to verify that the AT is only being used as a "land cruise for Disney"?
> 
> Keep in mind, some of us actually live in Florida ... not Michigan


A lot of generalizations here about the auto train. From someone who has ridden Obviously there’s a substantial amount of snow birds as well as folks going to the theme parks. I’ve seen them all in the dining car on the auto train. Just because flying is “easier and cheaper” doesn’t mean there aren’t people who don’t like flying or people that are trying something different. But on the other hand to say it’s all people on a “Disney cruise” is also not accurate. I’d say the largest contingent is snow birds but like any other service there is a diverse group of riders. (Source: someone who rides frequently to go to the Orlando area for a week and then rides back.) this year I am taking the silver service to avoid having to drive to DC (my closest Amtrak station is Springfield MA and this will allow me to take the train all the way from there) but I am a big auto train fan:


----------



## bms

I have met a lot of people riding long distance trains for work, but I don't see why work is any more valid of a reason to travel than leisure. People need both in their lives. However, three day per week schedules are going to make business travel virtually impossible as they won't fit the business needs of very many companies.

Perhaps Amtrak could use some schedules that appeal more to business travelers. Based on the train timings, the Capitol Limited from WAS-CHI is the only long-distance train I can think of that that's timed for business travel. There used to be a whole host of sleeper trains that would follow that type of schedule, leaving a big city in the late afternoon or early evening and then arriving in another big city the next morning.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

bms said:


> I have met a lot of people riding long distance trains for work, but I don't see why work is any more valid of a reason to travel than leisure. People need both in their lives. However, three day per week schedules are going to make business travel virtually impossible as they won't fit the business needs of very many companies.
> 
> Perhaps Amtrak could use some schedules that appeal more to business travelers. Based on the train timings, the Capitol Limited from WAS-CHI is the only long-distance train I can think of that that's timed for business travel. There used to be a whole host of sleeper trains that would follow that type of schedule, leaving a big city in the late afternoon or early evening and then arriving in another big city the next morning.


Those days appear to be gone. It is questionable as to how in focus the government is with the needs of the people it is supposed to be serving.


----------



## bms

20th Century Rider said:


> Those days appear to be gone. It is questionable as to how in focus the government is with the needs of the people it is supposed to be serving.



Yes, the only realistic possibility of getting any new sleeper service like I describe is if sleepers were added to trains 65 and 66 between Boston and Washington. I doubt they will do even that.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

bms said:


> Yes, the only realistic possibility of getting any new sleeper service like I describe is if sleepers were added to trains 65 and 66 between Boston and Washington. I doubt they will do even that.


That was once upon a time and long ago... it was a train called the "Night Owl" between Boston and Washington. Amtrak is going in the opposite direction of 'more and more;' now it's 'less and less.'


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Don’t forget the unique snowbirds. Having your own car vs. a rental doesn’t matter too much for a 1 week vacation. But the snowbirds own property and will be staying for a month or 2, it makes sense that they want their own vehicle.
> 
> On top of that, they will be at the age where the long drive is not appealing to them.
> 
> (I call them snowbirds but of course they can go back and forth between the properties whenever they want to, it’s not strictly seasonal).


While the original concept of the Auto Train may have been to appeal to those going to Disney - hence the location of the southern terminus - I think the demographic has changed to snowbirds, a term which has traditionally referred to those of us northerners who spend the winter in Florida. This change was abetted first by the rapid increase in gas prices a few years back, followed by the real estate crisis which made Florida property (and by proxy rentals) cheaper and finally, as posted in one of the lengthy threads about the Auto Train, the recent spike in car rental rates in Florida - traditionally some of the lowest in the US. We used to fly to Florida, rent a car for several weeks and seldom went to Disney World or other attractions. Car rental increases made this un-affordable for longer periods, so taking your own vehicle whether on the Auto Train or simply driving it became the practical option. If we lived in the northeast US and vacationed on the east coast of Florida, we'd be on the Auto Train every year. Unfortunately we're a day and a half away from Lorton and almost as bad at the other end (extreme northwest Florida). The bottom line though is Auto Train = necessary transportation, not a cruise train.


----------



## Qapla

If there was a way to detrain in Jacksonville with your car it would serve North Florida as well as south Georgia - it is a shame this has never been done


----------



## railiner

bms said:


> I have met a lot of people riding long distance trains for work, but I don't see why work is any more valid of a reason to travel than leisure. People need both in their lives. However, three day per week schedules are going to make business travel virtually impossible as they won't fit the business needs of very many companies.
> 
> Perhaps Amtrak could use some schedules that appeal more to business travelers. Based on the train timings, the Capitol Limited from WAS-CHI is the only long-distance train I can think of that that's timed for business travel. There used to be a whole host of sleeper trains that would follow that type of schedule, leaving a big city in the late afternoon or early evening and then arriving in another big city the next morning.


The Crescent schedule is fairly useful for that between Washington and Atlanta...back in the Southern Crescent days, they would add/remove cars at both...


----------



## railiner

jiml said:


> While the original concept of the Auto Train may have been to appeal to those going to Disney - hence the location of the southern terminus - I think the demographic has changed to snowbirds, a term which has traditionally referred to those of us northerners who spend the winter in Florida. This change was abetted first by the rapid increase in gas prices a few years back, followed by the real estate crisis which made Florida property (and by proxy rentals) cheaper and finally, as posted in one of the lengthy threads about the Auto Train, the recent spike in car rental rates in Florida - traditionally some of the lowest in the US. We used to fly to Florida, rent a car for several weeks and seldom went to Disney World or other attractions. Car rental increases made this un-affordable for longer periods, so taking your own vehicle whether on the Auto Train or simply driving it became the practical option. If we lived in the northeast US and vacationed on the east coast of Florida, we'd be on the Auto Train every year. Unfortunately we're a day and a half away from Lorton and almost as bad at the other end (extreme northwest Florida). The bottom line though is Auto Train = necessary transportation, not a cruise train.


Back when the Auto Train was privately operated, Amtrak would try competing with it, by offering a week of free car rentals in Florida.





__





The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)






www.timetables.org


----------



## railiner

Qapla said:


> If there was a way to detrain in Jacksonville with your car it would serve North Florida as well as south Georgia - it is a shame this has never been done


It might be convenient for some, but doing enroute switching would probably have an adverse effect on overall reliability of operations...
Doubt that Amtrak would want to experiment with that....


----------



## jruff001

railiner said:


> It might be convenient for some, but doing enroute switching would probably have an adverse effect on overall reliability of operations...
> Doubt that Amtrak would want to experiment with that....


Plus the automobile loading and unloading process is very labor- and infrastructure-intensive, as anyone who has ridden the AT and observed the operations at Lorton and Sanford has seen.

(And anyway you can drive from Sanford to Jacksonville in less than two hours, so the AT is certainly a viable option to get from the NE to the Jacksonville area with a car.)


----------



## Qapla

Since all the cars headed south are loaded at a single location (Lorton) would it really be that difficult to load the cars that would terminate at JAX on car carriers attached to the back of the train and simply uncouple those cars in JAX and unload them after the rest of the AT has departed. Car carriers could be added to the northbound trains the same way.

Have you ever driven from Jacksonville to Sanford? Google Maps may show it as 2 hours - but, with traffic it takes longer than that in actual practice. In addition to adding a minimum of two hours to the trip of anyone coming from the panhandle who would like to use the AT, it also adds considerable time to any who may come from the Savannah and Brunswick area as well as there being are Navy Bases in Jacksonville and Kings Bay, Ga.

I agree, it would take some planning and revisions to do "enroute switching" and I doubt Amtrak would experiment with it either - it was just a thought just like having additional AT's elsewhere in the system ... as has been mentioned by others.


Of course, the what the AT does may not have any impact on the food service of the western trains so I guess we should get back to discussing those


----------



## tgstubbs1

The Auto train seems to be the one LD train that's kept some kind of favored status, with the daily service and food service all LD trains used to have.

Do servicemen ever use the Auto train, or is it too far from Sanford?

Sometimes service people are temporarily deployed to somewhat distant bases, like Bremerton WA.


----------



## jiml

A lot of people don't realize how big Florida actually is. Heck, where we stay in the winter is in a different time zone.


----------



## Dakota 400

jiml said:


> A lot of people don't realize how big Florida actually is. Heck, where we stay in the winter is in a different time zone.



Your statement about the size of Florida is quite true. Driving North to South or East to West, it is a full day's drive for me. While visiting a friend in Fort Pierce, I drove to Daytona Beach to visit another friend and returned home that same day. Even having driven in Florida for several years, the trip took longer and I returned to Fort Pierce much later than I had expected.


----------



## me_little_me

bms said:


> I have met a lot of people riding long distance trains for work, but I don't see why work is any more valid of a reason to travel than leisure. People need both in their lives. However, three day per week schedules are going to make business travel virtually impossible as they won't fit the business needs of very many companies.
> 
> Perhaps Amtrak could use some schedules that appeal more to business travelers. Based on the train timings, the Capitol Limited from WAS-CHI is the only long-distance train I can think of that that's timed for business travel. There used to be a whole host of sleeper trains that would follow that type of schedule, leaving a big city in the late afternoon or early evening and then arriving in another big city the next morning.


My son used to take the Crescent from ATL to NYP because he left in the evening after a full work day, could actually get work done on the trip, have a night's rest but be in NY in time for some afternoon then next morning meetings with an afternoon return with opportunity to relax while getting post-meeting work done. He took a room. He sold his company and now can almost afford to buy his own train.


----------



## me_little_me

tgstubbs1 said:


> The Auto train seems to be the one LD train that's kept some kind of favored status, with the daily service and food service all LD trains used to have.
> 
> Do servicemen ever use the Auto train, or is it too far from Sanford?
> 
> Sometimes service people are temporarily deployed to somewhat distant bases, like Bremerton WA.


They can't fit tanks, fighters or warships in those auto carriers.


----------



## railiner

jiml said:


> A lot of people don't realize how big Florida actually is. Heck, where we stay in the winter is in a different time zone.


Pensacola is closer to Houston, than to Miami...


----------



## toddinde

jruff001 said:


> Part of me hopes that Congress has more important things to worry about than micromanaging what Amtrak serves in its dining cars.
> 
> Plus, if they do, I think there is a very good chance you might not like what the mandate is. It probably won't be to spend more money.


The House did in the most recent legislation passed. This is not a new issue. The ICC struggled with regulating service quality back in the railroad days. That’s how the diner and sleeper returned to the Sunset. The Congress does this sort of thing routinely. Since the Government funds Amtrak, this is exactly what they need to be doing.


----------



## toddinde

fdaley said:


> I completely agree that this needs to be the standard, and I'm OK with achieving it by congressional mandate if necessary. But I'd like to think that Amtrak's management would be smart enough to realize that good food is essential attracting and retaining customers for its long-distance trains.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not at all certain that the current management will ever get serious about running the long-distance trains. Do you think that they'll shape up when they get direction from Congress? Or do we need a new management team?


I’m optimistic about Bill Flynn. He seems to get it aside from the tri-weekly train thing. I think a pro-Amtrak DOT and Congress can work with him. The Board is a different story.


----------



## ehbowen

railiner said:


> Pensacola is closer to Houston, than to Miami...


Orange [TX] is closer to Jacksonville [FL] and El Paso is closer to Los Angeles than El Paso and Orange are to each other....


----------



## Sidney

I am currently on the Texas Eagle heading to LA. We arrived in Texarkana at 6:30 this morning and will arrive in El Paso by 3 tomorrow afternoon. That includes the almost five hour stop in San Antonio. Indeed,Texas is a huge state. Getting back on topic,the flex dining is getting old. They didn't have any milk this morning so I couldn't get any cereal. I still love riding but there is no anticipation for meals anymore. I went to a convenience store before I left and got six blueberry and cherry cheese danish. Better than anything Amtrak serves. We will be early into Dallas. An hour layover. Hopefully I can get a good sandwich somewhere. Sad,but that's what riding Amtrak has come to.

I'm heading to LA,then San Luis Obispo then back on a Surfliner to LA and the Southwest Chief to Chicago. I bought two roomettes Chi LA and LA Chi in July during a points sale. 32,0000 points round trip. Couldn't pass that up.


----------



## Qapla

It would be interesting to know what Amtrak costs the portion of a sleeper ticket for the meals. How much would it reduce the cost of a sleeper if they either quit serving food and/or allowed you to purchase a "non-meals" sleeper ticket and subtracted the meal cost from the ticket.

I know they ran the Star for a while without included food service for a while - can't remember what the difference in Star and Meteor tickets for sleepers were back then.

Of course, it is a catch-22 for them. If the difference between the Meteor and the Star was not very much then no wonder they were not making any "profit" from the meals. If they cost out the meals so they are profitable it should reduce the non-meal sleeper cost further than they had it priced.

If you go by the menu prices they had in the diner when they allowed coach to eat in the diner - it would have drastically reduced the price of a sleeper without the food included.

I wouldn't mind having to provide my own food for a trip in a sleeper if the cost of the sleeper was more affordable by bringing my own food rather than overpaying for what they presently offer.


----------



## Sidney

Sidney said:


> I am currently on the Texas Eagle heading to LA. We arrived in Texarkana at 6:30 this morning and will arrive in El Paso by 3 tomorrow afternoon. That includes the almost five hour stop in San Antonio. Indeed,Texas is a huge state. Getting back on topic,the flex dining is getting old. They didn't have any milk this morning so I couldn't get any cereal. I still love riding but there is no anticipation for meals anymore. I went to a convenience store before I left and got six blueberry and cherry cheese danish. Better than anything Amtrak serves. We will be early into Dallas. An hour layover. Hopefully I can get a good sandwich somewhere. Sad,but that's what riding Amtrak has come to.
> 
> I'm heading to LA,then San Luis Obispo then back on a Surfliner to LA and the Southwest Chief to Chicago. I bought two roomettes Chi LA and LA Chi in July during a points sale. 32,0000 points round trip. Couldn't pass that up.


Strike one zero 32,000 points


----------



## tgstubbs1

Qapla said:


> It would be interesting to know what Amtrak costs the portion of a sleeper ticket for the meals. How much would it reduce the cost of a sleeper if they either quit serving food and/or allowed you to purchase a "non-meals" sleeper ticket and subtracted the meal cost from the ticket.
> 
> I know they ran the Star for a while without included food service for a while - can't remember what the difference in Star and Meteor tickets for sleepers were back then.
> 
> Of course, it is a catch-22 for them. If the difference between the Meteor and the Star was not very much then no wonder they were not making any "profit" from the meals. If they cost out the meals so they are profitable it should reduce the non-meal sleeper cost further than they had it priced.
> 
> If you go by the menu prices they had in the diner when they allowed coach to eat in the diner - it would have drastically reduced the price of a sleeper without the food included.
> 
> I wouldn't mind having to provide my own food for a trip in a sleeper if the cost of the sleeper was more affordable by bringing my own food rather than overpaying for what they presently offer.


If you calculate the 'per diam' for meals it could get close to $100, I would think.
Maybe not quite, but probably at least $70-80.


----------



## Qapla

For a single overnight train like the silvers? How much for a longer train? What would each meal be "per diem"?

Currently, a trip from JAX to NYP is $121 coach and $477 sleeper - making the sleeper cost $356 ... reducing that by $100 would make it a little more affordable to more people - although, even $256 for a single night stay in a room no larger than a sofa could still be considered a bit costly.


----------



## niemi24s

Qapla said:


> I know they ran the Star for a while without included food service for a while - can't remember what the difference in Star and Meteor tickets for sleepers were back then.


Empirical data regarding this is available here: Long Distance Train Coach & Sleeper Fares (Buckets)


----------



## Qapla

niemi24s said:


> Empirical data regarding this is available here: Long Distance Train Coach & Sleeper Fares (Buckets)


Those charts seem to be after meals were restored to the Star since they have matching fares for both Silvers


----------



## Nick Farr

tgstubbs1 said:


> The Auto train seems to be the one LD train that's kept some kind of favored status, with the daily service and food service all LD trains used to have.



The AT has the highest utilization of any of the LD trains and runs at a very slight subsidization. 

They could probably raise fares slightly and make it break-even.


----------



## Sidney

Qapla said:


> For a single overnight train like the silvers? How much for a longer train? What would each meal be "per diem"?
> 
> Currently, a trip from JAX to NYP is $121 coach and $477 sleeper - making the sleeper cost $356 ... reducing that by $100 would make it a little more affordable to more people - although, even $256 for a single night stay in a room no larger than a sofa could still be considered a bit costly.


$356 for one a one night trip with the flex dining? Very pricy. However if people are willing to pay...even more outrageous if that is for a roomette


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## Qapla

Yes, that is for a roomette


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> $356 for one a one night trip with the flex dining? Very pricy. However if people are willing to pay...even more outrageous if that is for a roomette



That’s about what I paid for my last trip on the Meteor (with flex dining) and I thought the value was ok. The train delivered me to my destination in comfort. A single overnight meant 3 flex meals (lunch, dinner, breakfast), plus I had a second breakfast compliments of the Philadelphia club Acela Lounge. 

$356 is about what you would pay to fly first class from Florida to the northeast. 

The prices make less sense out west especially with flex dining. October 1 sees a $623 price for a roomette from Chicago to LA vs. $343 for first class, non-stop on the same day via united.


----------



## Qapla

Since I don't fly I don't compare my travel prices to the cost of a train ticket. Besides, the cost of the proposed trip was $477 - the $356 is the difference between coach to sleeper. Both fares are getting you there at the same time on the same ticket.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> Since I don't fly I don't compare my travel prices to the cost of a train ticket. Besides, the cost of the proposed trip was $477 - the $356 is the difference between coach to sleeper. Both fares are getting you there at the same time on the same ticket.



Ohhh that’s different. It was like $412 or something for my roomette. $477 is getting a bit high, I agree.


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## Sidney

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s about what I paid for my last trip on the Meteor (with flex dining) and I thought the value was ok. The train delivered me to my destination in comfort. A single overnight meant 3 flex meals (lunch, dinner, breakfast), plus I had a second breakfast compliments of the Philadelphia club Acela Lounge.
> 
> $356 is about what you would pay to fly first class from Florida to the northeast.
> 
> The prices make less sense out west especially with flex dining. October 1 sees a $623 price for a roomette from Chicago to LA vs. $343 for first class, non-stop on the same day via united.


The $623 from Chicago to LA is two nights,three if taking the Eagle and several meals. With the current flex dining it is a bit high. It was the same price with full service dining...You can get to Florida from Baltimore for example on Southwest for under $100.Flying to LA,a little more,but I take the train for the journey.


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## niemi24s

If you want to dazzle 'em with bodacious numbers, poke around on Arrow a few hours until you find a travel date over the whole route of the Silvers when the Saver Coach fare of $130 is offered and Bedrooms are at high bucket of $1591. You can then proudly proclaim $1461 for a one night trip with flex dining makes the previous $356 look like the bargain of the millennium!


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## Qapla

That is true ... I just used the "normal" ticket price and chose different days for travel so I could see if the Star and the Meteor had the same price (they did) to get an idea of the "everyday" cost of such a trip

At current COVID conditions - I am not planning such a trip!


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## tgstubbs1

Sidney said:


> The $623 from Chicago to LA is two nights,three if taking the Eagle and several meals. With the current flex dining it is a bit high. It was the same price with full service dining...You can get to Florida from Baltimore for example on Southwest for under $100.Flying to LA,a little more,but I take the train for the journey.


Let's see. If you have dinner on departure from CHI, then two full days, then breakfast on arrival in LA the SWC would have 8 meals included. Is that right?


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## railiner

tgstubbs1 said:


> Let's see. If you have dinner on departure from CHI, then two full days, then breakfast on arrival in LA the SWC would have 8 meals included. Is that right?


One day too many....


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/temporary-timetables/Southwest-Chief-Schedule-030820.pdf


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## amtkstn

Five Dinner first day, Second day breakfast, lunch, dinner and a early morning breakfast on the way into LA.


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## jiml

tgstubbs1 said:


> Let's see. If you have dinner on departure from CHI, then two full days, then breakfast on arrival in LA the SWC would have 8 meals included. Is that right?





railiner said:


> One day too many....
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/temporary-timetables/Southwest-Chief-Schedule-030820.pdf


Would be accurate for Texas Eagle westbound though.


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## niemi24s

This shows the most recent whole-route fares (with as many of the buckets as could be found) for all the LD trains:


It was also just posted here: Long Distance Train Coach & Sleeper Fares (Buckets) The earliest such chart on file elsewhere is dated 26 Oct 2015.


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## Barb Stout

railiner said:


> One day too many....
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/temporary-timetables/Southwest-Chief-Schedule-030820.pdf


No, it's 2 days. One day will get you to ABQ (actually 25 hours), then about 2/3rds of another day/night to get to LA. I have to admit that I'm not looking at the timetables, just relying on my memory of both east bound and west bound trips from ABQ. But it's only 4-5 meals, not 8, because of the 2 nights of travel.


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## niemi24s

All the timetables not blown out of the water by Covid-19 can be found here: Train Schedules & Timetables | Amtrak The pre-Covid ones not shown can be found in the archives or a much-cherished copy of the last paper System Timetables book.


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## Asher

Sounds like it all boils down to Amtrak thinking, if Coach riders can travel without having to use a dinning car, Sleeper Pax can do the same.


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## Steve4031

I am planning a trip to Europe to ride trains for next summer.  One of the train trips is an 8 hour ride on the railjet from Vienna to Zurich. I looked at their menu and was amazed at the variety. 



https://www.oebb.at/dam/jcr:683fcaea-3968-40e9-9cd0-adc413508f03/folder-don-menu.pdf


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## drdumont

crescent-zephyr said:


> The prices make less sense out west especially with flex dining. October 1 sees a $623 price for a roomette from Chicago to LA vs. $343 for first class, non-stop on the same day via united.



Problem here is you would have to fly on United. And deal with TSA and the rest of the tsouris of airports.

I believe most Amtrak riders are those who either cannot fly, don't want to fly, or ride Amtrak for the sheer pleasure of the ride (or at least what is left of the pleasure). Greyhound isn't all that cheap any more, and ven if it is, the worst ride on a train is better than the best ride on a bus, IMHO.


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## Sidney

I will only fly if I have to be somewhere quick or when I m low on Amtrak points and I can't find a low bucket fare. Comparing flying to rail travel is apples to oranges. Of course it is cheaper to fly cross country. Last rates I checked for travel in October was $129 BWI to LAX on Southwest and $900 for a roomette and $250 for Coachon Amtrak. If cost is the factor there is no comparison. When I was younger I did three overnights in Coach quite often. Maybe one night if I both seats to myself. That is guaranteed now,but when the pedemic passes that will not be the case.


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## crescent-zephyr

drdumont said:


> Problem here is you would have to fly on United. And deal with TSA and the rest of the tsouris of airports.
> 
> I believe most Amtrak riders are those who either cannot fly, don't want to fly, or ride Amtrak for the sheer pleasure of the ride (or at least what is left of the pleasure). Greyhound isn't all that cheap any more, and ven if it is, the worst ride on a train is better than the best ride on a bus, IMHO.



You're suggesting United customer service is worse than Amtrak? I don't love the TSA but I've never been questioned by TSA as I have by Amtrak police for having a "suspicious" itinerary. (A one-way ticket in a roomette to Salt Lake City). 

I've had bus rides that were better than my worst experiences on Amtrak, but for truly long-distance overnight trips I agree. The biggest problem with bus travel in the USA is the constant transfers.


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## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> Comparing flying to rail travel is apples to oranges.



Apples and Oranges are both fruits. Rail and Air are both public transit options. What would you suggest I use to compare Amtrak prices with?


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## Sidney

Just an expression


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## tonys96

crescent-zephyr said:


> Apples and Oranges are both fruits. Rail and Air are both public transit options. What would you suggest I use to compare Amtrak prices with?



Best is Megabus, or The old Gray Dog, but can also compare with:

Driving, hitch hiking, and walking. All are terra firma based transport alternatives, like Amtrak.


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## hlcteacher

niemi24s said:


> All the timetables not blown out of the water by Covid-19 can be found here: Train Schedules & Timetables | Amtrak The pre-Covid ones not shown can be found in the archives or a much-cherished copy of the last paper System Timetables book.


i do love my last paper system timetable and refer to it often in planning


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## crescent-zephyr

tonys96 said:


> Driving, hitch hiking, and walking. All are terra firma based transport alternatives, like Amtrak.



Those are not public transit options though.

Greyhound is, but since they don’t offer a first-class product it’s difficult to compare any greyhound prices to Amtrak sleeping cars IMHO.

I suppose I just see things the way I see them. When I plan a trip I compare first-class air with roomette prices. Those are the two options I consider. I use bus services to get places that air and rail won't take me. Before I got used to flying, I would use Mega Bus more often.


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## Exvalley

crescent-zephyr said:


> When I plan a trip I compare first-class air with roomette prices.


As a business traveler, I can assure you that I do too.


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## railiner

While perusing the old timetables, I ran across this blurb, and just in the "eat your heart out" spirit, thought I'd share it here...


The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## Qapla




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## me_little_me

railiner said:


> While perusing the old timetables, I ran across this blurb, and just in the "eat your heart out" spirit, thought I'd share it here...
> 
> 
> The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


You're not being fair! The current menus may well be "Moving Feasts" - just not for humans. I'm sure pigs, vultures, insects, bacteria and Amtrak management might consider it a feast.


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## Qapla

me_little_me said:


> Amtrak management might consider it a feast.



Not if they have to eat it ...


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## jimdex

fdaley said:


> I am not at all certain that the current management will ever get serious about running the long-distance trains. Do you think that they'll shape up when they get direction from Congress? Or do we need a new management team?


 / Virtually every Amtrak management team over the past 50 years has been accused of failing to support the long-distance trains, and of allegedly "cooking the books" to make long-distance trains look bad. financially Changing managers has not had any substantial effect in the past, and it's unlikely to have any substantial effect in the future. All Amtrak managements are constrained by the fact that yes, the long-distance trains do lose money, and the political will to increase the subsidy for those operations is limited.


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## zephyr17

Graham Claytor and his team were very supportive of long distance services.


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## jimdex

zephyr17 said:


> Graham Claytor and his team were very supportive of long distance services.
> [/QUOTE


That is basically true, which is why I said "virtually," but not even Claytor could go beyond modest expansions of long-distance service. And even during his tenure, Amtrak released financial reports showing the long-distance trains losing money. Given the realities of the situation, there was only so much Claytor could do.


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## crescent-zephyr

jimdex said:


> / Virtually every Amtrak management team over the past 50 years has been accused of failing to support the long-distance trains, and of allegedly "cooking the books" to make long-distance trains look bad. financially Changing managers has not had any substantial effect in the past, and it's unlikely to have any substantial effect in the future. All Amtrak managements are constrained by the fact that yes, the long-distance trains do lose money, and the political will to increase the subsidy for those operations is limited.



Boardman and Moorman both seemed very supportive of long distance service. 

Alex K. Made some famous quote about comparing long distance trains to national parks.


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## jimdex

crescent-zephyr said:


> Boardman and Moorman both seemed very supportive of long distance service.
> 
> Alex K. Made some famous quote about comparing long distance trains to national parks.



They may have offered some supportive comments, but from a practical aspect, they did very little to expand or improve long distance service.


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## crescent-zephyr

jimdex said:


> They may have offered some supportive comments, but from a practical aspect, they did very little to expand or improve long distance service.



neither called to remove long distance trains or long distance services. They ordered new Long distance equipment and kept the LD system running as well as could be expected. 

From a practical aspect that’s way better than what we have now!


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> neither called to remove long distance trains or long distance services. They ordered new Long distance equipment and kept the LD system running as well as could be expected.
> 
> From a practical aspect that’s way better than what we have now!


Well, the current ones also ordered new LD locomotives, and as far as I can tell are keeping the LD network running for now. Additionally they have an active planning activity to refurbish and eventually replace the LD equipment subject to funding of course, though some of it, specially Amfleet II replacement may even get funded out of current accounts revenue collateralized loans too. Actually their hands have pretty much been tied regarding running the LD network given how PRIIA was worded identifying each individual LD train as something that cannot be lightheartedly dropped. Anderson tried and failed, and I doubt anyone will try again in a while as long as Congress does not cut off funding. That is the Devil's Compact that the whole thing is grounded on.

In my mind the issue really is the lack of desire both on the part of Congress and Amtrak management to seriously consider doing the needful to potentially expand the National Network offerings. That is still the case with the new ConnectUS Plan.

It should also be remembered that the service downgrades, some serious ones at that, began in the Boardman era. Of course in many people's mind all of those are now ascribed to Anderson, so there is that too.


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> It should also be remembered that the service downgrades, some serious ones at that, began in the Boardman era



Which ones? It is hard to keep track of what happened under which president.


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Which ones? It is hard to keep track of what happened under which president.


I believe it was during that time amenity kits were dropped, wine tasting was dropped on the LSL and EB, china was being removed from diners, and food quality went down. 

Just a guess..


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## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Which ones? It is hard to keep track of what happened under which president.


Silver Star lost its Diner in Boardman's time for example as did the Lake Shore. Admittedly that was partly because Boardman's contract managers could not figure out how to flog CAF into delivering anything on time, after having chosen CAF instead of Alstom who had inherited the knowledge of construction of the previous Viewliner fleet.

There was also a series of Menu degrades and the march to plasticware that happened over those years.


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## zephyr17

I think Simplied Dining Service which reduced dining car staff, significantly reduced the number of items freshly prepared onboard, and ultimately pretty much ended individualized menu items by train was on Boardman's watch.

In his defense, that was in response to the Mica Amendment. We should also note that SDS is essentially the version of "traditional dining" that everyone is now clamoring to return to.

It was a big degradation at first, but improved over time (the recently discussed lamb shank in another thread for example).

While Boardman didn't press for enhancements to long distance services, he accepted them as part of Amtrak and fought a pretty decent rearguard battle to maintain some semblance of quality in a hostile political environment.

As opposed to Anderson who was overtly hostile to LDs and, at least initially, started actions aimed at their dismantlement.


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## zephyr17

Cal said:


> I believe it was during that time amenity kits were dropped, wine tasting was dropped on the LSL and EB, china was being removed from diners, and food quality went down.
> 
> Just a guess..


All in response to the Mica Amendment.


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## Cal

zephyr17 said:


> All in response to the Mica Amendment.


I'm sorry, but what is that?


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## Sidney

Flex was introduced in June 2018,almost three years ago on the Capitol and Lake Shore under Anderson. When was the Mica amendment?


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## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> I think Simplied Dining Service which reduced dining car staff, significantly reduced the number of items freshly prepared onboard, and ultimately pretty much ended individualized menu items by train was on Boardman's watch.
> 
> In his defense, that was in response to the Mica Amendment. We should also note that SDS is essentially the version of "traditional dining" that everyone is now clamoring to return to.
> 
> It was a big degradation at first, but improved over time (the recently discussed lamb shank in another thread for example).
> 
> While Boardman didn't press for enhancements to long distance services, he accepted them as part of Amtrak and fought a pretty decent rearguard battle to maintain some semblance of quality in a hostile political environment.
> 
> As opposed to Anderson who was overtly hostile to LDs and, at least initially, started actions aimed at their dismantlement.



The original sds was basically plated flex meals with table service. Nothing was cooked on board. (never forget the Bob Evans breakfast scramble!). 

When they realized they could have 1 chef cook a few items on board they added it back. Scrambled eggs & omelettes for breakfast. Steak and a grilled fish for dinner. Then they added the special items like the lamb, crab cakes, etc. - those were all excellent.


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## zephyr17

Cal said:


> I'm sorry, but what is that?


Legislation introduced by Representative John Mica R-FL and passed that required Amtrak to completely eliminate losses attributable food and beverage service over a 5(?) year period.

Mica was constantly on Amtrak's food service for years and years as his leading example of government waste. Like removing the diners was going to eliminate the deficit. He was also directly responsible for killing the wine tastings when he started yelling about "Amtrak's giving away free wine!"

He was thankfully defeated for re-election in 2016 and the Mica Amendment was repealed in 2019(?). At any rate, he's gone and it's gone.

He was an enormous political problem for Amtrak years, though.


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## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> Flex was introduced in June 2018,almost three years ago on the Capitol and Lake Shore under Anderson. When was the Mica amendment?


Don't remember the exact date, around 2014, I think. Repealed in 2019.


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## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> The original sds was basically plated flex meals with table service. Nothing was cooked on board. (never forget the Bob Evans breakfast scramble!).
> 
> When they realized they could have 1 chef cook a few items on board they added it back. Scrambled eggs & omelettes for breakfast. Steak and a grilled fish for dinner. Then they added the special items like the lamb, crab cakes, etc. - those were all excellent.


Yeah, it got quite a bit better. It was pretty awful at the beginning. That Bob Evan's scramble looked like the outcome of worshipping the porcelain god.


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## jis

zephyr17 said:


> All in response to the Mica Amendment.


Well a combination of Mica Amendment and continuous pestering by the OIG. The Republicans used the OIG to beat Amtrak upon its head repeatedly about merely trying to operate a viable passenger system it seemed. This in spite of many individual Republican legislatures playing a herculean role to protect Amtrak in their turf. But they never succeeded and even now have not succeeded in modifying the party dogma on this matter, such as it is.



Sidney said:


> Flex was introduced in June 2018,almost three years ago on the Capitol and Lake Shore under Anderson. When was the Mica amendment?


2015. It contained a deadline of Dec 31 2020, by when Amtrak would be disbarred from using any federal funds for providing food service on any train. Incorporated in regulations as 49 USC #24321, repealed in 2020 in the Emergency Authorization Extension and Supplementary Appropriation Bill.


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## me_little_me

Cal said:


> I'm sorry, but what is that?


Past article on Mica's issues

A major part of the problem has been Amtrak's unwillingness/inability to document their diner costs and revenues and how they came up with the numbers as well as their issues of running out of food to sell and kicking coach passengers out of the diners (lost revenue opportunities). Elsewhere is this IG document form 2014 in which you can see SOME of Amtrak's costs but read their summary at the bottom where they say management doesn't track the info by train.

OIG Report


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## Ryan

zephyr17 said:


> While Boardman didn't press for enhancements to long distance services, he accepted them as part of Amtrak and fought a pretty decent rearguard battle to maintain some semblance of quality in a hostile political environment.


That pretty well squares with the conversation I was able to have with him once upon a time. I pressed him a bit on ordering new LD stock, and the gist of it was that it was up to Congress to provide the direction and funding to do so.


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## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> There was also a series of Menu degrades and the march to plasticware that happened over those years.



I don’t remember any significant menu degrades under boardman. Even in 2016 (Boardman’s last year) I was having a lamb shank on China on the coast Starlight. 

I do know the chefs specials started slowly disappearing from the other trains before he left though.


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## Ryan

Here's a pretty decent thread that describes the state of the food in 2014. Not glowing reviews, but oh, if only we knew what was coming...




__





Menu Item Must-Haves and Must-Not-Haves


Would the more experienced Amtrak long distance diners share their menu must-haves and must-not-haves? Also, any tips on food to bring along are appreciated. Thanks.




www.amtraktrains.com


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## Palmland

lordsigma said:


> Unfortunately if you want a good meal right now you either have to cook it yourself or goto a restaurant.


That’s our experience too where restaurants are wide open with no restrictions (other than long waits because of a shortage of servers). So that begs the question: if it’s ok in restaurants why not on trains, planes, or hotel chains where your free breakfast is a stale pastry wrapped in plastic. Surely the opportunity to save money can’t be the reason.


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## Bob Dylan

Palmland said:


> That’s our experience too where restaurants are wide open with no restrictions (other than long waits because of a shortage of servers). So that begs the question: if it’s ok in restaurants why not on trains, planes, or hotel chains where your free breakfast is a stale pastry wrapped in plastic. Surely the opportunity to save money can’t be the reason.


As always the Tpublicans are blaming it on the workers who don't want to work ,when they can get $300 a Week Unemployment instead of the $2.13 an Hour that Servers and Bartenders make in Texas!


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## lordsigma

I’m optimistic about what I’m hearing from
The RPA - sounds like we’ll hear more next week. If everything works out out west I guess then the battle moves to trying to improve flex dining to something more acceptable to all passengers. Maybe I’m naive but for right now I’m feeling optimistic.


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## crescent-zephyr

Palmland said:


> if it’s ok in restaurants why not on trains, planes, or hotel chains where your free breakfast is a stale pastry wrapped in plastic. Surely the opportunity to save money can’t be the reason.



The homewood suites that I recently stayed at had the full hot buffet available but masked employees plated the food for you. That’s a change I would love to see as buffets always make me a little nervous!


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## Big Green Chauvanist

Odd. This thread had many posts through September, 2020, then went dead until yesterday. Am I missing something in between? I just saw this sample western route menu and couldn't believe my eyes. Am I simply dreaming?



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0120.pdf



As I don't eat meat, there are two, count'em two, non-meat dinner possibilities and both look yummy. I plan to travel cross country in 2022 and was dreading being very limited in my eating choices.


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## Cal

Big Green Chauvanist said:


> Odd. This thread had many posts through September, 2020, then went dead until yesterday. Am I missing something in between? I just saw this sample western route menu and couldn't believe my eyes. Am I simply dreaming?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Long-Distance-Dining-Car-Menu-0120.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> As I don't eat meat, there are two, count'em two, non-meat dinner possibilities and both look yummy. I plan to travel cross country in 2022 and was dreading being very limited in my eating choices.


This was the menu pre-Covid. No idea if it will be the one used when traditional dining is reinstated. However with more and more positive messages coming out, there is a possibility it will come back like this or better. We will just have to wait and see what unfolds


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## Palmetto

No need to wait to see what unfolds









Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com


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## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> No need to wait to see what unfolds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Traditional Dining
> 
> 
> Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtrak.com


Those are the pre-COVID menus (dated 01/20)


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## Palmetto

Oh. Then Amtrak's IT department should not be showing them in conjuntion with the comment about restarting traditional dining, don't you think?


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## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> Oh. Then Amtrak's IT department should not be showing them in conjuntion with the comment about restarting traditional dining, don't you think?


The comments are in a box at the top of their existing page, just like the flex meal comments. I doubt they even thought about how users would think the menus were up-to-date.


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## Cal

Palmetto said:


> Oh. Then Amtrak's IT department should not be showing them in conjuntion with the comment about restarting traditional dining, don't you think?


And since when have Amtrak's comments been truly reliable?


----------

