# Pacific Parlour Car Permanently Retired February 2018



## AmtrakLKL

Thought this might be worthy of a new thread.

The PPCs are being retired from service. The last northbound trip from LAX will be on Friday, February 2 returning from SEA on February 4. Nothing was mentioned about a separate First Class Lounge continuing or not in place of the PPC.

With the last of the Heritage Diners quickly making their way to the exits as well, 2018 will mark the end of a very long era.


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## A Voice

AmtrakLKL said:


> Thought this might be worthy of a new thread.
> 
> The PPCs are being retired from service. The last northbound trip from LAX will be on Friday, February 2 returning from SEA on February 4.
> 
> With the last of the Heritage Diners quickly making their way to the exits as well, 2018 will mark the end of a very long era.


Is the amenity of a separate lounge space for sleeper passengers actually being removed from the Coast Starlight, or just the Hi-level equipment? Previously, plans from Amtrak indicated the Parlor Cars would be replaced by (remodeled/rebuilt) _Cross Country Cafe_ diner-lounge cars (but this also wasn't supposed to happen for a few years). Presumably, plans have changed.

So, the very last Heritage cars on Amtrak are finally at an end. Had anyone suggested in 1971 or even the early 80's that some of these cars would be operating into 2018, you'd have been laughed right off the railroad. Quite a remarkable achievement (about seventy years of service for some diners). Other than company service cars, I have to wonder when the last Heritage baggage cars will finally be withdrawn (axle count service).


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## AmtrakLKL

A Voice said:


> Is the amenity of a separate lounge space for sleeper passengers actually being removed from the Coast Starlight, or just the Hi-level equipment? Previously, plans from Amtrak indicated the Parlor Cars would be replaced by (remodeled/rebuilt) _Cross Country Cafe_ diner-lounge cars (but this also wasn't supposed to happen for a few years). Presumably, plans have changed.
> 
> So, the very last Heritage cars on Amtrak are finally at an end. Had anyone suggested in 1971 or even the early 80's that some of these cars would be operating into 2018, you'd have been laughed right off the railroad. Quite a remarkable achievement (about seventy years of service for some diners). Other than company service cars, I have to wonder when the last Heritage baggage cars will finally be withdrawn (axle count service).


The announcement wasn't specific regarding the actual lounge amenity, just that the Heritage PPCs are being retired due to age and cost. I certainly hope the separate lounge space continues for First Class guests, but we shall have to wait and see.


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## City of Miami

I was never impressed by the PPC experience beyond my very first time in 2005 I think. That trip Nanette was the attendant and the wine tasting was a good time had by all, even non-partakers. She had the whole car playing trivia, among other things. The novelty of the whole thing was appealing, including the coveted and much-discussed swivel seats and theater below. Later trips never measured up even with additions like the $12K temperamental espresso machines whose output I enjoyed exactly once. Over time I had a few meals there which were OK but I sat there alone and missed the opportunity to interact with others in the dining car.

By the way, AmtrakLKL, there are no First Class guest on Amtrak long distance trains. Even Amtrak gave up that pretense years ago.


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## City of Miami

HA! I see I just hit 1000 posts. It only took me 14 years.


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## acelafan

That makes me sad. I always enjoyed the PPC, even with no heat and the abandoned space downstairs. It was unique and made my first LD train excursion on Amtrak extra enjoyable with the other travelers I met there. The lounge can get too rowdy for me at times.


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## AmtrakBlue

City of Miami said:


> HA! I see I just hit 1000 posts. It only took me 14 years.


Chatterbox








Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Bob Dylan

"..And another one bites the dust.."

RIP!


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## Devil's Advocate

Thank you for the advance warning. I might have to take one last trip before they're gone.


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## JoeBas

acelafan said:


> That makes me sad. I always enjoyed the PPC, even with no heat and the abandoned space downstairs. It was unique and made my first LD train excursion on Amtrak extra enjoyable with the other travelers I met there. The lounge can get too rowdy for me at times.


When did they "abandon" the downstairs? We were last on them in Spring 2016, and my family went down to watch _The Good Dinosaur_ in the theater.


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## rtabern

One of my friends who works for Amtrak sent me a copy of the memo last night announcing this.

In the past couple of years, the PPC (and the Great Dome Car) were about the only reasons we had for riding Amtrak anymore... I am sure Ocean View will be next, too.

Oh well, it's been a fun ride with Amtrak... I was Select Plus and Select Executive many years.... starting riding a lot less when changes happened to Guest Rewards. Then downgrades in the food and sleepers... and then now this. We made it a point to ride the Coast Starlight atleast once a year just for this car.

It looks like a lot more flying and driving trips will be in our future. Will only use Amtrak when necessary... like getting to La Plata, MO because it's faster than driving from Chicago... and maybe in the NEC. Beyond that, no care, need or desire for long distance Amtrak trips anymore... I hate to say. Slowly lost my interest and desires for Amtrak... never thought I'd say that 13 years ago when I joined this forum.


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## bmjhagen9426

AmtrakLKL said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the amenity of a separate lounge space for sleeper passengers actually being removed from the Coast Starlight, or just the Hi-level equipment? Previously, plans from Amtrak indicated the Parlor Cars would be replaced by (remodeled/rebuilt) _Cross Country Cafe_ diner-lounge cars (but this also wasn't supposed to happen for a few years). Presumably, plans have changed.
> 
> So, the very last Heritage cars on Amtrak are finally at an end. Had anyone suggested in 1971 or even the early 80's that some of these cars would be operating into 2018, you'd have been laughed right off the railroad. Quite a remarkable achievement (about seventy years of service for some diners). Other than company service cars, I have to wonder when the last Heritage baggage cars will finally be withdrawn (axle count service).
> 
> 
> 
> The announcement wasn't specific regarding the actual lounge amenity, just that the Heritage PPCs are being retired due to age and cost. I certainly hope the separate lounge space continues for First Class guests, but we shall have to wait and see.
Click to expand...

Whether the Diner Lounges will replace the PPC is not known, but seems unlikely, as occasionally they have substituted the usual observation car on the CS (I have been on a CS that had the Diner Lounge substitute the observation car). However, even with the PPC's biting the dust, this will not cause me to discontinue my ridership on Amtrak, as I normally only travel coach, and I have been on other LD trains without PPC.


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## crescent-zephyr

Sad, but I'm very grateful I got to experiece these cars as many times as I did. As someone who was born in the late 80's, the fact that I got to ride in Santa Fe Hi-Levels in regular service on mainline railroads in my adult life.... Pretty special. (Wiping the foam away now...  )


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## stappend

This seems to indicate its a temporary removal for service.

https://www.amtrak.com/alert/pacific-parlour-car-temporarily-removed.html

From another discussion:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66313-pacific-parlour-car-temporary-withdrawal/


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## Tennessee Traveler

Forgive me, I have seen no evidence of this "rumor". None of the above posts produce evidence -- only "I've seen the memo" and the opening comment simply stated "last PPC leaves Feb 2.

After all these "retirement" warnings, it will be interesting when the PPC's return in March 2018 from their annual "time out" for maintenance. These cars are very old and cost to repair is prohibitive so, yes, I expect these PPC's(there is only 4 or 5) to eventually be beyond repair. On all other LD Superliner trains a Sightseer Lounge is the special lounge car. Only the Coast Starlight has ever had a separate lounge(PPC) for sleeper passengers. I've ridden the Coast Starlight several times and since there are only 6 or 8 sofa style single seats, they are usually hogged by just a few and when I rode last June and ate in the PPC, the temp was freezing from the AC blasting. I actually prefer the Sightseer Lounge.


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## Rail Freak

I too am glad to have had the experience! I just hope Amtrak can find a way to replace them with Sightseer Lounges for Sleepers!


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## CHamilton

I'm trying to get official confirmation, but rumor has it that the last Pacific Parlour Car will leave Seattle on Feb. 4, the same day as the memorial for Zack Wilhoite, one of my friends who died on Amtrak 501.


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## rtabern

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Forgive me, I have seen no evidence of this "rumor". None of the above posts produce evidence -- only "I've seen the memo" and the opening comment simply stated "last PPC leaves Feb 2.
> 
> After all these "retirement" warnings, it will be interesting when the PPC's return in March 2018 from their annual "time out" for maintenance. These cars are very old and cost to repair is prohibitive so, yes, I expect these PPC's(there is only 4 or 5) to eventually be beyond repair. On all other LD Superliner trains a Sightseer Lounge is the special lounge car. Only the Coast Starlight has ever had a separate lounge(PPC) for sleeper passengers. I've ridden the Coast Starlight several times and since there are only 6 or 8 sofa style single seats, they are usually hogged by just a few and when I rode last June and ate in the PPC, the temp was freezing from the AC blasting. I actually prefer the Sightseer Lounge.


The PPC's will NOT be returning in March 2018. They will no longer run at all after #11 arrives into LAX on February 5, 2018.

I am not going to post the internal memo here because it contains names of Amtrak employee(s)... let's just it's legit... on Amtrak stationary and given to atleast 3 station agents I know who shared it with me this morning.


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## rtabern

CHamilton said:


> I'm trying to get official confirmation, but rumor has it that the last Pacific Parlour Car will leave Seattle on Feb. 4, the same day as the memorial for Zack Wilhoite, one of my friends who died on Amtrak 501.


That is correct --- last PPC trip will leave LAX on #14 on February 2nd... arriving in SEA on February 3rd.... then head south on #11 leaving SEA the next morning (February 4th) and arriving in LAX on February 5th.

Trying to make a mad scramble to have one last ride --- but with flights what they are and not being able to take time off during the week right now --- the most we could ride is one way PDX to EUG... and with flying and hotels the costs are likely too high to make it worth it for a 3 hour trip.


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## Rail Freak

Once the word gets out, the PPC will be too crowded to enjoy IMO!


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## KnightRail

The show is indeed over as indicated. Its time. For what the cars and offerings are today its a highly overrated experience. The goal is to reduce expenses and car miles. If the parlour cars have to be the sacrifice to make the financials of the Coast Starlight better, so be it.


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## VT Hokie

KnightRail said:


> The show is indeed over as indicated. Its time. For what the cars and offerings are today its a highly overrated experience. The goal is to reduce expenses and car miles. If the parlour cars have to be the sacrifice to make the financials of the Coast Starlight better, so be it.


If the goal is to reduce expenses and car miles...


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## chrsjrcj

I will definitely be in the minority (perhaps the only one), but in my one trip on the CS I did not see the appeal in the PPC itself. The lunch and dinner choices were restricting, I'm not a wine and cheese guy, and I thought the seats in the SSL were better for actual sightseeing. That said, I did enjoy the PPC once some riffraff that boarded overnight decided to make a bit of a mess of the SSL car. If they simply substituted the PPC with another (staffed) SSL, I personally wouldn't it consider it a huge loss, but that doesn't appear to be the intention here.

Still, it is a shame. I remember when a lot of effort was made to upgrade the Coast Starlate (as it was known then), and try to bring in more first class passengers.


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## VT Hokie

chrsjrcj said:


> I will definitely be in the minority (perhaps the only one), but in my one trip on the CS I did not see the appeal in the PPC itself. The lunch and dinner choices were restricting, I'm not a wine and cheese guy, and I thought the seats in the SSL were better for actual sightseeing. That said, I did enjoy the PPC once some riffraff that boarded overnight decided to make a bit of a mess of the SSL car. If they simply substituted the PPC with another (staffed) SSL, I personally wouldn't it consider it a huge loss, but that doesn't appear to be the intention here.
> 
> Still, it is a shame. I remember when a lot of effort was made to upgrade the Coast Starlate (as it was known then), and try to bring in more first class passengers.


I loved it during my trip back in 2013. But yeah, a second Sightseer wouldn't be bad, though I'd miss those insanely comforable swivel chairs! Maybe put some of those in a Sightseer!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdEuOenFW58/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdEvQP9FwxA/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdEvoMTlwVY/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMkOPB4h-fE/


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## crescent-zephyr

The appeal of the actual cars was both for the history, and also for the slightly luxurious feel. There was actual wood in the cars.. the layout was unique, the seats were a bit more plush and didn't have the traditional amtrak blue fabric. The etched glass dividers... a bar that actually looked like a bar and not an airline galley... they were little things but they added up.

I felt like these cars had more charm then the VIA Rail Park cars even... not saying they were perfect. But way closer to perfect then anything else on Amtrak. ha.


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## Palmetto

Can the Great Dome be far behind?


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## rtabern

Just jumped on and booked one of the last runs. Ughhh.... with only 3 weeks notice and my employer requiring 4 weeks notice for vacation... we'll only be able to fly out and back to ride about a 6 hour stretch... but I guess better than nothing and we can be part of history, I guess.

2018 will indeed be the first year since I was a kid (early-to-mid 1980's) I have not done a single overnight on Amtrak. THAT right there should say something. After being Select Plus and Select Executive 2007-2016. I am sure I'm not the only one here... this should be a BIG red flag that customers who enjoy train travel aren't happy with decisions made in the past 2 or 3 years... but, hey... I doubt anyone at Amtrak cares and maybe they feel someone else who doesn't care about good food or extras like the dome car or PPC's matter will fill my seat anyway... oh well. If Amtrak doesn't want my $$, then I know Southwest AIrlines does... we will just be doing more and more trips to areas of the country we haven't seen because Amtrak doesn't go there. And yes, we would spend several thousand dollars per year to ride the Coast Starlight 2-3x a year despite living on the opposite end of the country for these cars.


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## Lonestar648

I am not surprised the PPC are being retired, my last two trips the car was malfunctioning. I do think a replacement with similar services for the three Sleeping Cars is needed. Amtrak also needs a second SSL car on the CZ during the summer.


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## daybeers

VT Hokie said:


> If the goal is to reduce expenses and car miles...


Omg that picture was hilarious


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## Maglev

rtabern said:


> Just jumped on and booked one of the last runs. Ughhh.... with only 3 weeks notice and my employer requiring 4 weeks notice for vacation... we'll only be able to fly out and back to ride about a 6 hour stretch... but I guess better than nothing and we can be part of history, I guess.


I wish you the best of luck in getting a PPC! I rode #14 that originated in Los Angeles last Thursday (Jan.11). Not only was there no PPC, but there was a Diner-Lounge in place of the SSL as well. I saw a PPC on the #14 that originated in Los Angeles on Monday


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## rtabern

Maglev said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just jumped on and booked one of the last runs. Ughhh.... with only 3 weeks notice and my employer requiring 4 weeks notice for vacation... we'll only be able to fly out and back to ride about a 6 hour stretch... but I guess better than nothing and we can be part of history, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish you the best of luck in getting a PPC! I rode #14 that originated in Los Angeles last Thursday (Jan.11). Not only was there no PPC, but there was a Diner-Lounge in place of the SSL as well. I saw a PPC on the #14 that originated in Los Angeles on Monday
Click to expand...


Well... we have a friend who will be getting on the train we plan to ride in LAX --- so he can alert us if it's not on... and we're flying Southwest into Portland the next day so we can cancel and get air credit -- so it will be okay. But the internal memo I saw this morning specifically listed the 6 remaining departures of #14 that will have them on. Of course that's not to say it's not on because realistically it can get bad-ordered. Hopefully though if it's the last run they will be able to do it.


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## Rail Freak

Maglev said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Not only was there no PPC, but there was a Diner-Lounge in place of the SSL as well. I saw a PPC on the #14 that originated in Los Angeles on Monday
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Diner- Lounge?
Click to expand...


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## Maglev

Rail Freak said:


> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Not only was there no PPC, but there was a Diner-Lounge in place of the SSL as well. I saw a PPC on the #14 that originated in Los Angeles on Monday
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Diner- Lounge?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It's a diner that has been converted to a lounge car, with a food service counter in the middle and tables on either side.


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## Rail Freak

Maglev said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Not only was there no PPC, but there was a Diner-Lounge in place of the SSL as well. I saw a PPC on the #14 that originated in Los Angeles on Monday
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Diner- Lounge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a diner that has been converted to a lounge car, with a food service counter in the middle and tables on either side.
Click to expand...

Is it the Diner Car I rode on the Capitol Limited a few years ago (CC or CCC, something like that)?


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## Bob Dylan

Rail Freak said:


> Maglev said:
> 
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> 
> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Not only was there no PPC, but there was a Diner-Lounge in place of the SSL as well. I saw a PPC on the #14 that originated in Los Angeles on Monday
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Diner- Lounge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a diner that has been converted to a lounge car, with a food service counter in the middle and tables on either side.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is it the Diner Car I rode on the Capitol Limited a few years ago (CC or CCC, something like that)?
Click to expand...

Yep, the Cross Country Cafe that is the usual Diner on the CONO and the Texas Eagle.
They suck as Lounge Cars!


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## CHamilton

RPA is now confirming the rumors.


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## rtabern

CHamilton said:


> RPA is now confirming the rumors.


I figured they were not just rumors when I saw a copy of a memo this morning with official Amtrak letter head and signed by an employee who would have the authority to announce such a decision.



We are riding on #14(02) Salem to Seattle. Just heartbroken... but... again... no reason now really to come out and ride the Coast Starlight like we have made a point to do 2-3x per year for the past decade or so. Time to explore other areas of the country that Amtrak doesn't go to... is how I look at it. I just wish they didn't pull the B.S. of only giving people 3 weeks notice about this happening. Airfare to come out to the west coast and enjoy one last trip was not cheap that close in!


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## Rail Freak

Bob Dylan said:


> Rail Freak said:
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> Maglev said:
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> Rail Freak said:
> 
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> 
> 
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> Maglev said:
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> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Not only was there no PPC, but there was a Diner-Lounge in place of the SSL as well. I saw a PPC on the #14 that originated in Los Angeles on Monday
> 
> 
> 
> What is a Diner- Lounge?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a diner that has been converted to a lounge car, with a food service counter in the middle and tables on either side.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is it the Diner Car I rode on the Capitol Limited a few years ago (CC or CCC, something like that)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep, the Cross Country Cafe that is the usual Diner on the CONO and the Texas Eagle.
> They suck as Lounge Cars!
Click to expand...

They suck as diner cars!!!


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## chakk

There are some recent postings over on trainorders that say it is all a hoax, and that all PPcs will return to service on the CS sometime in late March.

But then again, the Saints were certain they’d won the Divisional Playoff...

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## rtabern

chakk said:


> There are some recent postings over on trainorders that say it is all a hoax, and that all PPcs will return to service on the CS sometime in late March.
> 
> But then again, the Saints were certain they’d won the Divisional Playoff...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


If it's a hoax.... it's one hell of a hoax. The notice I saw was uploaded on the internal Amtrak website accessed by station agents... memo signed by an Amtrak official who would have the title to announce such decisions. That's not saying it isn't a hoax I guess... because anything can be a hoax these days, I guess... but THREE station agents who know me well and know I enjoy the PPC screen-shotted the memo to me all independently when it popped up this morning. If it's a hoax then someone got into the internal website. Guess I'll keep my reservations on the last northbound run for now... I am sure all space is going to be booked on the last few runs I'd imagine.


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## capltd29

rtabern said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> RPA is now confirming the rumors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I figured they were not just rumors when I saw a copy of a memo this morning with official Amtrak letter head and signed by an employee who would have the authority to announce such a decision.
> 
> 
> 
> We are riding on #14(02) Salem to Seattle. Just heartbroken... but... again... no reason now really to come out and ride the Coast Starlight like we have made a point to do 2-3x per year for the past decade or so. Time to explore other areas of the country that Amtrak doesn't go to... is how I look at it. I just wish they didn't pull the B.S. of only giving people 3 weeks notice about this happening. Airfare to come out to the west coast and enjoy one last trip was not cheap that close in!
Click to expand...

This is really kind of a bizarre statement. I don't understand how an ancient glorified sightseer lounge car makes or breaks a trip for you. Its not even a dome. Im pretty sure there aren't many people who will stop riding the train because of the retiring of these elderly cars. They're cool, but really not much more than a better sightseer lounge.


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## acelafan

JoeBas said:


> When did they "abandon" the downstairs? We were last on them in Spring 2016, and my family went down to watch _The Good Dinosaur_ in the theater.


I rode around the same time, maybe my car was an anomaly. It had empty boxes on the floor and obviously wasn't being used. But maybe if someone asked the lounge attendant they would have popped in a movie. 
The reality is they are old cars and Amtrak has enough other things to worry about besides rehabilitating this equipment. If there were more resources then it would be great to keep them rolling.

Wasn't the annual removal of these cars a soft launch to retire them completely?





Honestly, what Amtrak really needs to spend money on is refreshing the Superliners. They really are getting worn out, especially bathrooms. But that's another thread.


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## Devil's Advocate

capltd29 said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> RPA is now confirming the rumors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I figured they were not just rumors when I saw a copy of a memo this morning with official Amtrak letter head and signed by an employee who would have the authority to announce such a decision.
> 
> 
> 
> We are riding on #14(02) Salem to Seattle. Just heartbroken... but... again... no reason now really to come out and ride the Coast Starlight like we have made a point to do 2-3x per year for the past decade or so. Time to explore other areas of the country that Amtrak doesn't go to... is how I look at it. I just wish they didn't pull the B.S. of only giving people 3 weeks notice about this happening. Airfare to come out to the west coast and enjoy one last trip was not cheap that close in!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is really kind of a bizarre statement. I don't understand how an ancient glorified sightseer lounge car makes or breaks a trip for you. Its not even a dome. Im pretty sure there aren't many people who will stop riding the train because of the retiring of these elderly cars. They're cool, but really not much more than a better sightseer lounge.
Click to expand...

Amtrak accountants and maintenance managers have been trying to kill off the PPC for several years now. The only reason the PPC fleet lasted this long was because of sleeper customer feedback informing Amtrak that the PPC was considered an important part of the Coast Starlight experience. That's what I was told by an Amtrak customer service manager who was riding the CS during one of my trips. It's not hard to imagine that keeping a small and mechanically unique fleet of cars in service has long since exceeded their ability to bring in additional revenue, but that doesn't mean they aren't popular with most passengers or that they're not a big draw to people who love trains but live far away from the one and only route that retained them. When they're gone it's not the end of the world, but for those of us who live far away it will be one less reason to spend the time and money necessary to reach and ride the CS.


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## MikeM

acelafan said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> When did they "abandon" the downstairs? We were last on them in Spring 2016, and my family went down to watch _The Good Dinosaur_ in the theater.
> 
> 
> 
> I rode around the same time, maybe my car was an anomaly. It had empty boxes on the floor and obviously wasn't being used. But maybe if someone asked the lounge attendant they would have popped in a movie.
> The reality is they are old cars and Amtrak has enough other things to worry about besides rehabilitating this equipment. If there were more resources then it would be great to keep them rolling.
> 
> Wasn't the annual removal of these cars a soft launch to retire them completely?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, what Amtrak really needs to spend money on is refreshing the Superliners. They really are getting worn out, especially bathrooms. But that's another thread.
Click to expand...

If there's a renewed focus on refurbishing the Superliner fleet, especially the bathrooms, then I would feel better about losing this battle. But my fear is that we're going to see continued penny pinching to improve cash flow up to the point that folks won't be willing to spend the extra bucks on the train and particularly sleepers for a much reduced product. I doubt anything will happen in the next three years, but hopefully the next administration will be willing to open the purse for replacement of much of Amtrak's fleet as it's getting progressively more and more ragged as time marches on. There's limits to the miracles that Beach Grove can turn out.


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## Tennessee Traveler

And, yet, still no "written" document to confirm these rumors. And "I personally saw the memo" doesn't fly with me. Nor does "RPA just confirmed it."

Just the same I will not miss the PPC but it would be nice to have a dedicated Sightseer Lounge for sleeping car passengers.


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## rtabern

capltd29 said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> RPA is now confirming the rumors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I figured they were not just rumors when I saw a copy of a memo this morning with official Amtrak letter head and signed by an employee who would have the authority to announce such a decision.
> 
> 
> 
> We are riding on #14(02) Salem to Seattle. Just heartbroken... but... again... no reason now really to come out and ride the Coast Starlight like we have made a point to do 2-3x per year for the past decade or so. Time to explore other areas of the country that Amtrak doesn't go to... is how I look at it. I just wish they didn't pull the B.S. of only giving people 3 weeks notice about this happening. Airfare to come out to the west coast and enjoy one last trip was not cheap that close in!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is really kind of a bizarre statement. I don't understand how an ancient glorified sightseer lounge car makes or breaks a trip for you. Its not even a dome. Im pretty sure there aren't many people who will stop riding the train because of the retiring of these elderly cars. They're cool, but really not much more than a better sightseer lounge.
Click to expand...

The PPCs are special for me and I suspect many others for several reasons... First its just really nice having an exclusive lounge car and dining area just for sleeping car passengers. Let's face it... If I dropped $1300 for one night in a bedroom and the car isn't turned the right way to see the ocean from my room... What are my options without the PPC? Pretty much fighting for a seat in the regular lounge car? The Sightseer Lounges are increasingly dirty with food crumbs all over the floor and people who haven't showered in days lingering around or people sitting at tables playing cards games where they slap the table. No respect or restraint. The PPC was just more quiet usually and more elegant and more comfortable. Something you expect for shelling out over $1000. Now you get to compete for an ocean side seat with someone who paid $19 for a coach ticket on the Starlight. Yeah go have fun with that... I will not partake. As I said it was as close to the private railcar experience on a public train route. We purposely rode that route for that car numerous times. And yes some of the ambiance was the history of a vintage railcar. I probably would have been okay with this decision if a replacement first class car was used instead. That isn't happening here. And guess what... I doubt fares will go down any after February 5. What is funny is VIA is making a killing off their high-end sleeper service where you have an exclusive lounge for most of the day. They can't convert sleepers fast enough to the Prestiege Class. Maybe it's something Amtrak should consider. I know Amtrak and VIA attract different clientle but maybe a route or two like the Starlight or Zephyr might be really well to consider a Prestiege option.


----------



## George K

rtabern said:


> The PPCs are special for me and I suspect many others for several reasons...maybe a route or two like the Starlight or Zephyr might be really well to consider a Prestiege option.


Clipped for saving pixels.

Interesting comments. And good points throughout.

I understand, and agree, with all your points. But...I have to ask the question: Is Amtrak a transportation company, or a cruise company? If the answer is the former, there's really no need for the PPC (as much as I enjoyed it a few years ago). If the answer is the latter, then...well, there you go.

I have no idea if eliminating the PPC will cost ridership, but I'd guess it won't (see "transportation company"), and, in a few years, most riders won't know the difference.

I'm not agreeing with the decision, at all. Just trying to understand the financial decisions behind it. Face it, it's always about the Benjamins, isn't it? As much as I'd like to have a "premium experience" for my hard-earned bucks, that's not Amtrak's vision. After all, riders on the EB, CZ, CS don't complain about the lack of a similar "premium experience,"


----------



## acelafan

Tennessee Traveler said:


> And, yet, still no "written" document to confirm these rumors. And "I personally saw the memo" doesn't fly with me. Nor does "RPA just confirmed it."
> 
> Just the same I will not miss the PPC but it would be nice to have a dedicated Sightseer Lounge for sleeping car passengers.


A friend of mine works for Amtrak (operations) and he has confirmed this change, as well. "Money loser". Surprise surprise...


----------



## cpotisch

George K said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> The PPCs are special for me and I suspect many others for several reasons...maybe a route or two like the Starlight or Zephyr might be really well to consider a Prestiege option.
> 
> 
> 
> Clipped for saving pixels.
> 
> Interesting comments. And good points throughout.
> 
> I understand, and agree, with all your points. But...I have to ask the question: Is Amtrak a transportation company, or a cruise company? If the answer is the former, there's really no need for the PPC (as much as I enjoyed it a few years ago). If the answer is the latter, then...well, there you go.
> 
> I have no idea if eliminating the PPC will cost ridership, but I'd guess it won't (see "transportation company"), and, in a few years, most riders won't know the difference.
> 
> I'm not agreeing with the decision, at all. Just trying to understand the financial decisions behind it. Face it, it's always about the Benjamins, isn't it? As much as I'd like to have a "premium experience" for my hard-earned bucks, that's not Amtrak's vision. After all, riders on the EB, CZ, CS don't complain about the lack of a similar "premium experience,"
Click to expand...

Amtrak is a transportation company, but much of their clientele use it somewhat like a cruise service. This is especially the case on scenic routes such as the CZ, EB, and yes, the Starlight. People choose to take the train over flying (if flying is an option) for the experience. Sleeper passengers pay plenty, so providing some cruise-esque amenities do support that customer-base.


----------



## rtabern

George K said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> The PPCs are special for me and I suspect many others for several reasons...maybe a route or two like the Starlight or Zephyr might be really well to consider a Prestiege option.
> 
> 
> 
> Clipped for saving pixels.
> Interesting comments. And good points throughout.
> 
> I understand, and agree, with all your points. But...I have to ask the question: Is Amtrak a transportation company, or a cruise company? If the answer is the former, there's really no need for the PPC (as much as I enjoyed it a few years ago). If the answer is the latter, then...well, there you go.
> 
> I have no idea if eliminating the PPC will cost ridership, but I'd guess it won't (see "transportation company"), and, in a few years, most riders won't know the difference.
> 
> I'm not agreeing with the decision, at all. Just trying to understand the financial decisions behind it. Face it, it's always about the Benjamins, isn't it? As much as I'd like to have a "premium experience" for my hard-earned bucks, that's not Amtrak's vision. After all, riders on the EB, CZ, CS don't complain about the lack of a similar "premium experience,"
Click to expand...

I would argue why couldn't it be both? As in be part transportation (coach)... Something in the middle (sleeper)... and part cruise (maybe Prestiege sleeper)? Offer travelers even more varying level of classes and services as long as people are willing to pay for them. Airlines do that... First class, comfort class, main cabin and now the super economy service where you get no overhead bin space. Why can't Amtrak make sleeper class a little nicer with first class lounge cars if people are willing to pay more? Maybe some of those premium fares can go to off setting losses of coach or economy class even?

I would think a sleeping car makes as much if not more than a coach car in terms of revenue. Let's say you have a packed train and almost every seat or accommodation is sold. Let's say 60 people in coach x an average fare of $150. That is $9000. For a sleeper you have 14 roomettes at $400 each and 7 bedrooms at $900 each. That's $11900. Toss in a first class lounge and I bet people are willing to pay for it.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Amtrak is a transportation company, but much of their clientele use it somewhat like a cruise service.


Poppycock! A vast majority of Amtrak customers do not use it as a cruise service at all, but as basic transportation.


----------



## jebr

Tennessee Traveler said:


> And, yet, still no "written" document to confirm these rumors. And "I personally saw the memo" doesn't fly with me. Nor does "RPA just confirmed it."
> 
> Just the same I will not miss the PPC but it would be nice to have a dedicated Sightseer Lounge for sleeping car passengers.


I wouldn't be surprised if there's no public memo and the service just quietly falls away. Amtrak wouldn't want to advertise outright removing an amenity, after all.

Based on the numerous sources reporting it, I'd encourage anyone who wants to experience the PPC to do so sometime during these next, probably last, six runs. They may decide to keep the lounge amenity with a CCC, but it almost certainly won't be with the current PPC fleet.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak is a transportation company, but much of their clientele use it somewhat like a cruise service.
> 
> 
> 
> Poppycock! A vast majority of Amtrak customers do not use it as a cruise service at all, but as basic transportation.
Click to expand...

I meant that on certain flagship scenic routes, a not-super-insignificant portion of the passengers do it for the experience. I recognize that's a tiny portion of overall ridership.


----------



## jebr

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak is a transportation company, but much of their clientele use it somewhat like a cruise service.
> 
> 
> 
> Poppycock! A vast majority of Amtrak customers do not use it as a cruise service at all, but as basic transportation.
Click to expand...

I generally agree, though I think most people in sleeper class accommodations are taking the train for more than just basic transportation. However, that's a pretty small portion of their customer base, even if it is one of the higher-revenue segments of their customer base. And almost everyone is traveling the train either primarily or in part because they want to get somewhere; anyone who is making the train trip their destination or the main part of their vacation is well outside the norm for Amtrak's customer base, likely even within the sleeper segment. Most people are taking the train to get to a destination with the destination being the motivation for the trip and the train either simply being a conveyance to get there or, perhaps more common on long distance trains, a choice made between competing modes because it is slower, more relaxing, etc.

If Amtrak simply replaces the PPC with a first class lounge car (probably a CCC,) I doubt most people will really care, at least enough for business to truly suffer. While the PPC has some charm, it's aging, and most people simply want a place to relax and perhaps have a special meal that isn't available in the general diner car. Amtrak may suffer some, at least short-term, if they completely drop a sleeper lounge on this train, but considering how many other trains run without a sleeper-only lounge I doubt it'd cause major long-term damage to the finances.


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## CCC1007

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak is a transportation company, but much of their clientele use it somewhat like a cruise service.
> 
> 
> 
> Poppycock! A vast majority of Amtrak customers do not use it as a cruise service at all, but as basic transportation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I meant that on certain flagship scenic routes, a not-super-insignificant portion of the passengers do it for the experience. I recognize that's a tiny portion of overall ridership.
Click to expand...

Please check the numbers on the Empire Builder again, as the train averages ~700 passengers per run utilizing a consist that has a capacity of ~400 passengers. This indicates that most seats are turning over at least once, especially since there is a capacity of only 132 sleeper passengers at a time, versus ~280 seats in coach.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

George K said:


> I have no idea if eliminating the PPC will cost ridership, but I'd guess it won't, and, in a few years, most riders won't know the difference.


I think the PPC was overhyped by some and underappreciated by others. Although it's not a make or break amenity for me It certainly affects how much I'm willing to pay for the ride. I personally found the old world style of the PPC to be much more inviting and conducive to socializing than the fast food style vinyl and fiberglass SSL that plies most long distance routes. The loss of folks like me is unlikely to have much impact on the Coast Starlight's financials, but the lack of unique features and premium services may spell trouble for the CS if and when CA's HSR line grows long enough to be relevant.



George K said:


> I'm not agreeing with the decision, at all. Just trying to understand the financial decisions behind it. Face it, it's always about the Benjamins, isn't it? As much as I'd like to have a "premium experience" for my hard-earned bucks, that's not Amtrak's vision. After all, riders on the EB, CZ, CS don't complain about the lack of a similar "premium experience,"


I've actually read hundreds of remarks about service reductions on the EB and CS over the years. Once upon a time they were considered the cream of the Amtrak crop. In fact they were even given special recognition by Amtrak for their premium status over other routes. I never saw or heard anything about the existence of anything fancy or premium on CZ though. In any case, if it's really about the Benjamins then Amtrak should consider shelving the Superliner fleet as well. If Amtrak really wants to be profitable they should probably consider dropping anything that strays beyond their home trackage. I wonder how all the indifferent "who cares" posters in this thread would feel about that.


----------



## Seaboard92

I find it funny Canadians are majorly griping about the prestige class, and the addition to them getting private park car access almost the entire day. Yet people here seem to think it's a great thing.

I'm going to take a NARP/RPA viewpoint for once and say trains are for modern transportation not to be seen as vintage or as a cruise. That's what's going to be the Canadian's downfall it's slipped from intercity passenger travel to foreign tourists taking a land cruise.

So no I don't think the PPC is going to have any effect on the numbers on the route. In fact the removal of such might help because LAX is capacity constrained allowing it to maybe add a car. When I rode the Starlight this November we were sold out in the sleepers and coaches the entire way PDX to LAX. And we had four sleepers, and four coaches.

And the same riff raff gets into the PPC too. I watched some foreign tourists let their child sit on the table. Then change its diaper on the table in the lounge. So no real difference there.

I'm glad I've ridden the PPC, and I'll personally miss it in the future. But it's not a deal breaker for me.


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## Maverickstation

A popular feature of the PPC was its specialized meal offerings. With the end of the PPC I assume that this feature is gone as well ??

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## OBS

Tennessee Traveler said:


> And, yet, still no "written" document to confirm these rumors. And "I personally saw the memo" doesn't fly with me. Nor does "RPA just confirmed it."
> 
> Just the same I will not miss the PPC but it would be nice to have a dedicated Sightseer Lounge for sleeping car passengers.


Two different Amtrak employees have posted in this thread confirming the change. I think you can believe it is accurate.....


----------



## rrdude

Seaboard92 said:


> I find it funny Canadians are majorly griping about the prestige class, and the addition to them getting private park car access almost the entire day. Yet people here seem to think it's a great thing.
> 
> I'm going to take a NARP/RPA viewpoint for once and say trains are for modern transportation not to be seen as vintage or as a cruise. That's what's going to be the Canadian's downfall it's slipped from intercity passenger travel to foreign tourists taking a land cruise.
> 
> So no I don't think the PPC is going to have any effect on the numbers on the route. In fact the removal of such might help because LAX is capacity constrained allowing it to maybe add a car. When I rode the Starlight this November we were sold out in the sleepers and coaches the entire way PDX to LAX. And we had four sleepers, and four coaches.
> 
> And the same riff raff gets into the PPC too. I watched some foreign tourists let their child sit on the table. Then change its diaper on the table in the lounge. So no real difference there.
> 
> I'm glad I've ridden the PPC, and I'll personally miss it in the future. But it's not a deal breaker for me.


It is an ABSOLUTE DEAL BREAKER FOR ME. The CS, without it, just another middling Amtrak train, albeit with GREAT VIEWS.


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## PRR 60

OBS said:


> Tennessee Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, yet, still no "written" document to confirm these rumors. And "I personally saw the memo" doesn't fly with me. Nor does "RPA just confirmed it."
> 
> Just the same I will not miss the PPC but it would be nice to have a dedicated Sightseer Lounge for sleeping car passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> Two different Amtrak employees have posted in this thread confirming the change. I think you can believe it is accurate.....
Click to expand...

An official notice has been posted internally at Amtrak - dated January 16. A screenshot can be viewed at Trainorders.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Amtrak is not just for transportation; it is also used by people who want to make the trip from A to B a bit more interesting, and by those who simply ride trains for the fun of it. And for those who say they will stop riding the trains just because a car was removed, Im sure some will and some wont.

I saw the PPC in two different lights. The historian in me who owns a more than 100 year old house and collects antiques liked the car- it added a bit of fake splendor to the CS. But not really historic value- the PPC was never so woody and Victorian when it ran on Santa Fe- at that point in time, such a thing would have been seen as clap trap. It had nice features.... that Amtrak could easily build into any Superliner if they so chose. The retirement of these cars suggests, but does NOT assure, that this level of splendor is going away; but Amtrak can install the retro mod wood and velour swivel seats into another car just as easily.

As a person who spent some years selling safety, and who at one time was interested in becoming a lawyer, I saw these cars as dangerous- their different floor height was a law suit wating to happen in todays litigious society. Beyond that, looking past the veneers of wood and luxury on what was originally an economy class lounge, I saw a car that was in poor shape, expensive to maintain, and held together with duct tape and bailing wire. And that was 3 years ago. I will miss them, but for reasons other than additional cost to the CS Route, I understand their long overdue retirement.

As a transit advocate, I saw these cars as an easy target for cut hawks. They certainly improved revenue and ridership for the CS, but also certainly did not improve return on investment (that is, the cost of operation exceeded the increase in revenue). We can explain the need for dining service, and the value of a sightseer lounge, and possibly, if it is above the rails profitable (by any combination of factors), a first class lounge. It is impossible to explain the operation of a dangerous, one off, expensive to maintain, and unprofitable antique as anything other than Amtrak engaging in historic preservation for its own sake.

I will miss them. Im glad I rode in them. But this was inevitable. My only real objection is the short notice... and I would like to know the reason for it.


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## Chey

All my life I have loved railroads. I take the CS every other summer from LAX to SJC where I have family. I have been in the PPC twice and liked it but it was never the focus of taking the CS, getting to SJC was.

Most of my travel is on the Eagle, Southwest Chief, Cardinal and Capitol Ltd. none of which have a parlor car. Outside of this forum I have never heard any passenger extol the glories of the PPC, I'm guessing most passengers feel pretty much as I do. I love the rock & roll of the train, I love watching America go by my window. I understand why many are sad at the loss of the PPC - I agree it *is* sad. But it's not even close to a deal breaker for me.


----------



## rtabern

rrdude said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it funny Canadians are majorly griping about the prestige class, and the addition to them getting private park car access almost the entire day. Yet people here seem to think it's a great thing.
> 
> I'm going to take a NARP/RPA viewpoint for once and say trains are for modern transportation not to be seen as vintage or as a cruise. That's what's going to be the Canadian's downfall it's slipped from intercity passenger travel to foreign tourists taking a land cruise.
> 
> So no I don't think the PPC is going to have any effect on the numbers on the route. In fact the removal of such might help because LAX is capacity constrained allowing it to maybe add a car. When I rode the Starlight this November we were sold out in the sleepers and coaches the entire way PDX to LAX. And we had four sleepers, and four coaches.
> 
> And the same riff raff gets into the PPC too. I watched some foreign tourists let their child sit on the table. Then change its diaper on the table in the lounge. So no real difference there.
> 
> I'm glad I've ridden the PPC, and I'll personally miss it in the future. But it's not a deal breaker for me.
> 
> 
> 
> It is an ABSOLUTE DEAL BREAKER FOR ME. The CS, without it, just another middling Amtrak train, albeit with GREAT VIEWS.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Thank you! Atleast for us... it IS a deal breaker for the 2-3x a year special trips we made to ride the Coast Starlight. I can get the same generic/sterile Amtrak Superliner "experience" I will be getting on the Coast Starlight now riding the Southwest Chief from Chicago to Galesburg, La Plata, or Kansas City. Why am I going to spend the extra bucks and time off work to fly out 4,000 miles round-trip to the west coast to ride the Coast Starlight without a special car on?

My feeling for the past couple of years has been unfortunately ---- I have done the western long distance routes soooooo many times that I almost have the routes memorized and it's really "getting old". Doing a 14-day loop trip was fun maybe 10 years ago when each train had a different menu and there were special cars like the PPC to ride in and look forward to. When we have done extended trips recently we have plotted out pizza joints and locations where friends are willing to deliver food to the train because the dining options get old after multiple days. Going east -- egh -- with maybe the exception of the Cardinal -- the scenery on any LD route isn't worth taking 2 vacation days off of work to ride and see when you can fly and do it in just 2 hours. Especially when you only get 3 weeks vacation time.

That, coupled with our Southwest Airlines Companion Pass we have got the past 3 years, means minimal rail travel. And, right now, we are personally okay with that for now. Maybe we'll shift back to traveling Amtrak more... I don't know. Right now... I am just kinda "blah" about Amtrak. I think some of that also comes from the fact we do volunteer narration on private railcars ---- and kinda have fallen in love with that too ---- call us "train snobs" I guess! Hahaha.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

GML made all excellent points in his post and I think maybe hit the nail on the head for me... It's not as much the car is going away... It's the final goodbye for an Amtrak that was trying. Free wine and cheese tastings, the cloth toiletry bags, welcome champaigne, enhanced dining car menu, "real" plates and glassware... when all of this went away on the empire builder, lake shore, capitol, and starlight the PPC car remained for a few years.


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## Devil's Advocate

Maybe try riding some more foreign trains for a while? Although, truth be told, you'll probably come back even _less_ impressed with Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr

While I do plan on doing that, it's hard to take foreign trains for transportation when I need to travel in the USA... Even when I took the Canadian, I still needed to get from NYC to the west coast... I just took a route that was a bit out of the way ha.


----------



## Triley

rtabern said:


> chakk said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some recent postings over on trainorders that say it is all a hoax, and that all PPcs will return to service on the CS sometime in late March.
> 
> But then again, the Saints were certain they’d won the Divisional Playoff...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> If it's a hoax.... it's one hell of a hoax. The notice I saw was uploaded on the internal Amtrak website accessed by station agents... memo signed by an Amtrak official who would have the title to announce such decisions. That's not saying it isn't a hoax I guess... because anything can be a hoax these days, I guess... but THREE station agents who know me well and know I enjoy the PPC screen-shotted the memo to me all independently when it popped up this morning. If it's a hoax then someone got into the internal website. Guess I'll keep my reservations on the last northbound run for now... I am sure all space is going to be booked on the last few runs I'd imagine.
Click to expand...

You may want too keep those comments to yourself, about employees showing you confidential documents... It could cost someone their job.
Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## Larry H.

The only time we rode the CS there was no parlor car on the consist, my luck of course. The old railroads realized something Amtrak isn't able somehow to do any longer, that is providing some amenities that attract riders. Like some others the level of the diners service, if you can even call them that any longer, the deteriorated sleepers with almost no perks but higher and higher fares have pretty much removed my interest in rail travel as it now is offered. I haven't even tried to find out how many points I would need for a trip I was thinking of, but my guess is the cost will be rather high compared to the old zone charges. The worst part still is the fact that when your located in the center of the nation but well below Chicago you still have to pay to ride way out of your way in order to get to Florida. The idea of the City of New Orleans running though cars from Chicago would be a huge help in saving money and time for passengers, but I doubt that will ever happen as well. When you check out some of the luxury trains run by the Japanese or other nations you start to realize how far we have fallen from where passenger rail should be.


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## Mystic River Dragon

I have mixed feelings about this. I am glad I got to ride in the PPC, but I wouldn't make a special trip all the way across the country to do it again. I found it charming, and a nice piece of history, but I also thought it was a bit dangerous going to/from the regular cars and having to step up/down into the PPC. I hope the cars go where they will be appreciated--perhaps one to the rail museum in Sacramento, for example.


----------



## OBS

crescent-zephyr said:


> GML made all excellent points in his post and I think maybe hit the nail on the head for me... It's not as much the car is going away... It's the final goodbye for an Amtrak that was trying. Free wine and cheese tastings, the cloth toiletry bags, welcome champaigne, enhanced dining car menu, "real" plates and glassware... when all of this went away on the empire builder, lake shore, capitol, and starlight the PPC car remained for a few years.


Unfortunately, I think this sums it up all too well.....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> While I do plan on doing that, it's hard to take foreign trains for transportation when I need to travel in the USA... Even when I took the Canadian, I still needed to get from NYC to the west coast... I just took a route that was a bit out of the way ha.


These days for most of my US trips I drive or fly. Amtrak timekeeping is not dependable enough for most of my trips and in many ways has become little more than a nostalgic (and expensive) joyride at this point. I live fifteen minutes away from an airport with nonstop flights to every major hub, two hours away from an airport with nonstop flights to every major metro, and three hours away from an airport that has nonstop flights to virtually every commercial airport of statistical relevance. So maybe it's time to complete your journey to the dark side. It's faster and easier and sometimes they even serve cookies! But on more serious note, once you're done mourning the loss of the PPC you might want to consider making time and money available for a few joyrides in other countries. Foreign HSR is here to stay and growing rapidly, but foreign sleeper trains are disappearing quickly and will soon be relegated to the history books.



OBS said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> GML made all excellent points in his post and I think maybe hit the nail on the head for me... It's not as much the car is going away... It's the final goodbye for an Amtrak that was trying. Free wine and cheese tastings, the cloth toiletry bags, welcome champaigne, enhanced dining car menu, "real" plates and glassware... when all of this went away on the empire builder, lake shore, capitol, and starlight the PPC car remained for a few years.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I think this sums it up all too well.....
Click to expand...

Agreed. It's not just Amtrak either. Every time I connect between a US airline and a legacy Asian carrier I'm reminded of the stark contrasts in pride of the position, enthusiasm for the mission, and proficiency in their tasks.


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> GML made all excellent points in his post and I think maybe hit the nail on the head for me... It's not as much the car is going away... It's the final goodbye for an Amtrak that was trying. Free wine and cheese tastings, the cloth toiletry bags, welcome champaigne, enhanced dining car menu, "real" plates and glassware... when all of this went away on the empire builder, lake shore, capitol, and starlight the PPC car remained for a few years.


You're dead on. I never got to ride the PPC, but I remember the dining experience before Amtrak first implemented SDS, and since then it just hasn't been the same. Some people will say that glassware, champagne, and ceramic plates are minor, unnecessary details, but those details add up to make a big difference in the experience. The PPC was Amtrak's last offering with that experience, and that will be missed.

As has been mentioned, there is the possibility for Amtrak to turn an SSL into a sort of 'PPC II'. Put in the Hi-Level's sofas/booths, movie theater, glass, dining. But given Amtrak's recent priorities, I don't see that is very likely.

All we can do now is keep our fingers crossed.


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## SP&S

We take the CS, at least, every year. Will I miss the PPC? Absolutely! Will it's elimination drive me away from Amtrak? Absolutely not! In fact last year we rode in February and will be riding again in February - _when the PPC wouldn't be in the consist anyway_. I've said for years that it was a treasure to be enjoyed while it lasted because it wouldn't be around forever.

GML's post is spot on. It's expensive to maintain, generates little revenue on it's own, has a dangerous transition to the other cars, and is the lowest of low hanging fruit for Amtrak haters in congress.

Good bye old friend, you will be missed. Missed like the UP dome diners, missed like my namesake railroad, missed like the flowers in the dining car. But I'm a realist and, having written software for most of my adult life, I know full well that the only constant is change - and change is not always bad.

Still looking forward to the next trip (SNC - PDX) in a month.


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## seat38a

Well it looks like riding CS Southbound on December 29th 2017 was a good decision I made. The dining car was a mess and turned away sleeping car passengers for lunch. Not having the PPC should make the dining car during busy times even more interesting.


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## Blackwolf

I've avoided commenting in this thread until now, but I'll weigh my $0.02.

I enjoyed the PPC, but the cars were so moribund they presented more of a liability on all accounts than they did any nature of benefit. To me, it was novel to have such a heritage piece of equipment still in revenue service on the only interstate passenger rail system left, but the real benefit was less the physical car and more the idea.

Lets face it, Amtrak's Long Distance sytem is fast becoming little more than a Air Koryo of American passenger rail service. Ancient and anachronistic equipment (when was the last time you traveled on an airliner or bus, operated by a major carrier, manufactured by a defunct company in the 1970's?!), surly and inconsistent service, generally unreliable and frustrating on time performance. Yes, they'll get you to your destination, usually, and it will come with the "experience" factor. But this is a downward trend that is not going to right itself, ever.

I can strongly support a conversion of SSL's and CCC's into modern and elegant replacements of the Hi-Level PPC's, especially since doing so would likely add revenue potential to existing equipment. But, if Amtrak cannot even find the funding to truly convert their Long Distance Business Class into a consistent product of seating style, pitch and amenities for lack of the money to even _buy new off-the-shelf seating_, then they will never ever spend the capital to make a single new PPC no matter how much the market potentially calls for such.

I really would love to be proved horribly wrong in my assessment.

Again, I loved the PPC's, but they should have been replaced and moved to a museum 20 years ago and newer equipment converted into the role.


----------



## Green Eye

I see the retirement of the Pacific Parlor Cars, along with the changes in discounts/passes and the elimination of the overnight Trails and Rails programs, as part of an overall strategy to reduce costs and increase revenues so that Amtrak can eliminate the operating subsidy. That subsidy was only 4% last I saw. If it was eliminated, then Amtrak could focus its subsidy requests on capital funding.


----------



## ChuckL

I’m so glad that the PPC was on #14 when I rode in it last November on a trip to see my son in San Diego using the Wolverine from MI, SWC, PS to and from SAN, EB and back to DER on a Wolverine. I had made this same trip 4 years previously and would have done a different routing if the PPC were not present in the consist. I made acquaintances in the PPC over a longer time period than meeting someone in the dining car. It gave the opportunity to exchange many stories which I frankly don’t think the SSL seating lent itself too. Hopefully Amtrak will replace it with something similar, but for now, thanks for the memories. May the PPCs Rest In Peace [emoji23].






Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## rtabern

Triley said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chakk said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some recent postings over on trainorders that say it is all a hoax, and that all PPcs will return to service on the CS sometime in late March.
> 
> But then again, the Saints were certain they’d won the Divisional Playoff...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> If it's a hoax.... it's one hell of a hoax. The notice I saw was uploaded on the internal Amtrak website accessed by station agents... memo signed by an Amtrak official who would have the title to announce such decisions. That's not saying it isn't a hoax I guess... because anything can be a hoax these days, I guess... but THREE station agents who know me well and know I enjoy the PPC screen-shotted the memo to me all independently when it popped up this morning. If it's a hoax then someone got into the internal website. Guess I'll keep my reservations on the last northbound run for now... I am sure all space is going to be booked on the last few runs I'd imagine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You may want too keep those comments to yourself, about employees showing you confidential documents... It could cost someone their job.
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app
Click to expand...

Seriously? And how is my post going to cost someone their job when I don't (and would NEVER) give out the names of said employees... doesn't make any sense. Get a life.


----------



## Ryan

Were someone in management to take in interest, it probably wouldn't be that hard to figure out.

We get it, you're deeply hurt by Amtrak taking your toys away, but telling an employee to "get a life" when they express a concern about fellow employees should be beneath you.


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## Rail Freak

Come on fellas, we all have our own reactions from this!!! We all love Amtrak or we wouldn't be on this site so regularly! CHILL!!!

HAVE FUN


----------



## A Voice

Some people do, indeed, need to keep some perspective on this. It's not like we didn't already know the Hi-level Parlor Cars were facing retirement in the next few years, we just didn't know it would be this year or there may not be a replacement. Nor should anyone be surprised the Parlors would be examined for a cost cutting move, because that has been proposed before.

One of the greatest implications, though, in my opinion is getting overlooked: The Heritage car era at Amtrak is drawing to a close. Other types of equipment can fulfill a 'sleeper lounge' role - now or perhaps reinstated in the future - but the legacy from the private carriers in intercity rail is done after 47 years. That's deserving of recognition


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Why would a broadly distributed memo about the retirement of a tiny fleet of parlor cars be the one thing Amtrak can't handle being leaked released _indirectly corroborated_ in public? This thread may have been against Amtrak's wishes but all things considered it seems pretty harmless and probably made Amtrak a few thousand dollars as people who normally wouldn't bother with dead-of-winter travel started scrambling for available compartments on the last few PPC eligible trips. Lack of malicious intent or any measurable harm would probably make easy work for a union lawyer to prevent an otherwise productive and responsible employee from being fired over this.


----------



## Trogdor

A Voice said:


> Some people do, indeed, need to keep some perspective on this. It's not like we didn't already know the Hi-level Parlor Cars were facing retirement in the next few years, we just didn't know it would be this year or there may not be a replacement. Nor should anyone be surprised the Parlors would be examined for a cost cutting move, because that has been proposed before.
> 
> One of the greatest implications, though, in my opinion is getting overlooked: The Heritage car era at Amtrak is drawing to a close. Other types of equipment can fulfill a 'sleeper lounge' role - now or perhaps reinstated in the future - but the legacy from the private carriers in intercity rail is done after 47 years. That's deserving of recognition


Well, technically, the dome is still around (for the time being, anyway). Not in regular service on a train, but it still makes it out for special occasions.

But in terms of regularly scheduled service with pre-Amtrak equipment, that is correct.

As for the actual retirement, I do think Amtrak missed an opportunity for some extra revenue and do a proper send-off. Given that they have at least a couple of good cars left, they could have done something akin to the UA 747 retirement, even if only announced a month or two in advance. Have a special "last train" celebration. Heck, maybe even run them on the SW Chief (as a nod to their ATSF) heritage, en route to Beech Grove (if that's where they're going to go in retirement). Given that it's the dead of winter, when equipment availability is high and bookings are otherwise typically low, they could have run a couple of extra sleepers and both good Parlours (I'm only guessing at two good ones since they run two trains per week in the winter, on consecutive days) in a consist to ensure extra capacity for the extra sleepers. It probably wouldn't be too hard to find a couple of extra LSAs to work, and even a bunch of management volunteers to work that last train.


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## TylerP42

I am saddened to hear this - however I will wait for an official statement.

I am glad that I got to experience the PPC once for my 18th birthday, however I am sad that I may not be able to experience it again.


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## JayPea

I am sorry to see the PPC go and wonder why the notice was so short. Definitely not a deal-breaker, though. Since I live just across the state from Seattle it's not like I have to make a special effort to have access to the Starlight. And to be honest I never used it all that much all the times I've ridden the CS. I think my best experience was my first time riding the CS when there was no PPC and a CCC was substituted. Now that I've got everyone's attention and everyone is saying SMH (or worse)




I can explain by saying I've always been one who went at a 45 degree angle to the rest of the world and found it very relaxing. Very few passengers used it and I had plenty of space to view out of both sides of the train, particularly in descending the Cuesta Grade into San Luis Obispo. In later trips in the PPC, more often than not, groups of loud, obnoxious people would dominate. I'm not at all a people person and don't do loud and obnoxious well. Plus the first attendant in that CCC was Veronica, simply one of the best employees I have ever had on Amtrak. So that made it pleasurable as well.

Sorry to see them go but it's not going to change my travel plans one iota.


----------



## amtrakpass

I think the main concern for me is not so much the loss of the pacific parlor per se, but if it portends to the loss of the regular lounge cars or otherwise reduced consists in general to play some accounting game; that is not good.


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## sechs

Just got the e-mail and robo-call for my trip in February.

It's gone.


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## TylerP42

Well, I will miss it. However it was something extra, and it wasn't something that was guaranteed. It made the trip cool and was an awesome experience.

The one time I was able to experience it was awesome, and I wish I could of experienced it again.

I wonder if they will still offer some amenities like the wine and cheese tasting.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Rail Freak said:


> Come on fellas, we all have our own reactions from this!!! We all love Amtrak or we wouldn't be on this site so regularly! CHILL!!!


Well, not all of us love Amtrak, but I think we can agree that sometimes things get needlessly testy and confrontational.







A Voice said:


> One of the greatest implications, though, in my opinion is getting overlooked: The Heritage car era at Amtrak is drawing to a close.


Makes me wonder how long Amtrak can keep the second generation fleet going. Will people eventually long for the good old days of Superliners and Amfleets?







Trogdor said:


> I do think Amtrak missed an opportunity for some extra revenue and do a proper send-off.


Good point. Airlines have learned how to turn fleet retirements into worldwide spectacles. What was once seen as little more than a neglected older aircraft with outdated amenities and tired interior is suddenly transformed into several months of nostalgic fanfare and last chance bookings. It honestly kind of surprises me that Amtrak didn't try to do more with this. Whether placing the remaining cars on a nationwide tour or leaving them where they are and simply giving more advance warning of their impending demise. Stock them full of snacks and cocktail fixings and celebrate their contribution to Amtrak's history.



amtrakpass said:


> I think the main concern for me is not so much the loss of the pacific parlor per se, but if it portends to the loss of the regular lounge cars...


Followed by another round of members proudly stating they never enjoyed the lounge car anyway so it's no big loss.


----------



## MikeM

Amtrakpass nails it for me in his comment - I understand that these few cars are probably past their prime and a money pit to maintain. But it also does feel like Amtrak is getting closer and closer to Greyhound in their service philosophy. One menu for the whole country, sleepers that haven't been truly refurbished in how many years? Inconsistent service standards, no real capital spending on new cars to replace cars that date to my college years (and I'm getting close to retirement).

In my latest trip on the Texas Eagle, I am taking the train one way, and flying back the other. The trip up in a economy sleeper is costing me around $300. I'll get three meals, some nice scenery, but will trade off 24 hours for the experience. It's worth it once in a while. On the return, I am able to fly in coach plus seating on a new AA plane for $100, or if I splurged for $220 could have flown in first class with lay flat seating. (this flight is a 787 repositioning flight in the morning). And it's 3 hours. There's easily available parking at the airport, while the Ft Worth station parking situation is a joke (I park at the airport and take the commuter rail to the station).

Not to begrudge train travel, because I think it is relaxing and a nice time to decompress, but having something special about the train, like good food, ambience, route guides, consistent service -- those are the things that ensure repeat business from higher dollar travelers. The folks paying $45 in coach may not care, but someone paying $680 for one night in a superliner bedroom sure does. Who's going to take the place of all the seniors who currently fill the sleepers in the future? There's only so many railfans out there who'll see spending more on a train as a good idea.

The earlier comment about the cruise train market is a valid issue - I think Amtrak would lose political support if it became a "tourist" train. But if there's a change to earn enough extra money to make the train better for the lower classes presents itself, without shutting out the lower classes, why not? Money is money.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the Coast Starlight over the next year. Not real convinced outside of railfans how much the lounge departure will affect things, but am certain many will notice the experience is not as good as it "should" be for the cost, without knowing specifically what is missing.


----------



## rtabern

Ryan said:


> Were someone in management to take in interest, it probably wouldn't be that hard to figure out.
> 
> We get it, you're deeply hurt by Amtrak taking your toys away, but telling an employee to "get a life" when they express a concern about fellow employees should be beneath you.



Yep, "management" is going to be able to figure out which out of thousands of ticket agents called me on my personal cell phone from their personal cell phone to tell me the news... Seriously?

Maybe Whooz' favorite secret agent Patrick Lynch will be put on this one... (anyone remember those posts!)


----------



## rtabern

TylerP42 said:


> I am saddened to hear this - however I will wait for an official statement.
> 
> I am glad that I got to experience the PPC once for my 18th birthday, however I am sad that I may not be able to experience it again.


Well, 5 pages into this thread since no one believed me... is this official enough for you? (Glad I got my trip booked for early February to ride while others doubted!)


AndersonCEO, Richard <[email protected]> 
Today at 5:44 PM
 To
Message bodyDear Robert:

Thank you for writing to me earlier today, to express concern about the removal of the Pacific Parlour Car equipment from the Coast Starlight. I can confirm that we will remove the equipment from service in the first week of February.

Under federal law, Amtrak has a responsibility to act on ways to maximize productivity and efficiency. There are just five of the Pacific Parlour Cars in the Amtrak fleet. They were built in 1956 and are over 60 years old. These cars generate little revenue and are expensive to operate. It has become too difficult to maintain such an old and relatively distinct type of equipment, or to obtain necessary parts. Although we recognize that the cars are appreciated by some Coast Starlight passengers, the cars’ age, cost, and lack of revenue make their retirement necessary.

Amtrak recognizes a need to renew the entire fleet, including the bi-level equipment used on many of our long-distance services. We must focus our attention and capital resources on that effort.

Sincerely,

Richard Anderson


----------



## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Why would a broadly distributed memo about the retirement of a tiny fleet of parlor cars be the one thing Amtrak can't handle being leaked released _indirectly corroborated_ in public? This thread may have been against Amtrak's wishes but all things considered it seems pretty harmless and probably made Amtrak a few thousand dollars as people who normally wouldn't bother with dead-of-winter travel started scrambling for available compartments on the last few PPC eligible trips. Lack of malicious intent or any measurable harm would probably make easy work for a union lawyer to prevent an otherwise productive and responsible employee from being fired over this.


You're not wrong from a logical point of view.

That said, the world is full of illogical people, and many of them find their way into middle management. Maybe some manager in Chicago doesn't like one of his people and does a little bit of digging to see if this can't be used to write someone up. Maybe a firing wouldn't stick, but maybe someone just got themselves selected to be the next station that loses checked baggage and reverts to "unstaffed". Maybe some manager somewhere is bent out of shape over the Great Refund Policy Leak Debacle and wants to even the score. Given Robert's description of the politics behind the various "ride in the lounge and talk at people" programs, they exhibit the maturity of an elementary school playground. Maybe one of those people has an ax to grind and wants to get back at him by causing trouble for his sources.

Is any of this likely? Nope. Is it something worth thinking about and posting? Sure. Is it worth getting bent out of shape and getting snippy with someone over? Absolutely not.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

sechs said:


> Just got the e-mail and robo-call for my trip in February.
> 
> It's gone.


I got the same email and robo-call today for my trip in February which was already scheduled to not have the Parlour Car. Here is the exact wording of the notice:

_"Our records indicate that you are scheduled to depart on Amtrak train number 14 from Emeryville, California at 10:04PM on Saturday February 10 _

_We want to inform you that Amtrak will retire the renowned Pacific Parlour car. The last day of service will be on the Coast Starlight Train 14 on Feb. 2, and on the Coast Starlight Train 11 on Feb. 4. Retiring the Parlour Car is part of Amtrak’s ongoing work to modernize its fleet of equipment._

_The Coast Starlight will continue to provide daily service from Seattle to Los Angeles. Amtrak is reviewing what amenities offered in the Parlour Car will be available in the future. Customers will continue to enjoy the trip and spectacular views from other areas of the train, including the Dining and Sightseer Lounge cars._

_We appreciate your patronage and look forward to welcoming you onboard. Thank you for traveling with Amtrak._

_The most up to date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps or by calling 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245). "_


----------



## Ryan

rtabern said:


> Yep, "management" is going to be able to figure out which out of thousands of ticket agents called me on my personal cell phone from their personal cell phone to tell me the news... Seriously?


There aren't thousands of station agents living in your neck of the woods. It isn't out of the question for someone to comb through your posting history, ask around the water cooler, and make some educated guesses. Like I said, it isn't likely, but to blow it off as completely impossible is to be ignorant of the realm of possibilities.



> Maybe Whooz' favorite secret agent Patrick Lynch will be put on this one... (anyone remember those posts!)


God, those were great. Wonder what happened to that Super Special Agent Lynch.


----------



## seat38a

rtabern said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am saddened to hear this - however I will wait for an official statement.
> 
> I am glad that I got to experience the PPC once for my 18th birthday, however I am sad that I may not be able to experience it again.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, 5 pages into this thread since no one believed me... is this official enough for you? (Glad I got my trip booked for early February to ride while others doubted!)
> 
> 
> 
> AndersonCEO, Richard <[email protected]>
> Today at 5:44 PM
> To
> Message bodyDear Robert:
> 
> Thank you for writing to me earlier today, to express concern about the removal of the Pacific Parlour Car equipment from the Coast Starlight. I can confirm that we will remove the equipment from service in the first week of February.
> 
> Under federal law, Amtrak has a responsibility to act on ways to maximize productivity and efficiency. There are just five of the Pacific Parlour Cars in the Amtrak fleet. They were built in 1956 and are over 60 years old. These cars generate little revenue and are expensive to operate. It has become too difficult to maintain such an old and relatively distinct type of equipment, or to obtain necessary parts. Although we recognize that the cars are appreciated by some Coast Starlight passengers, the cars’ age, cost, and lack of revenue make their retirement necessary.
> 
> Amtrak recognizes a need to renew the entire fleet, including the bi-level equipment used on many of our long-distance services. We must focus our attention and capital resources on that effort.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Richard Anderson
Click to expand...

Looks like buying two orders of the overpriced Moscow Mules and a bottle of the overpriced wine did not help the profit margin. Oh well at least I tried.


----------



## CHvision

Here's my thought to this: If (when) the Pacific Parlor car is gone, will it be replaced with another Sightseer lounge?


----------



## cpotisch

CHvision said:


> Here's my thought to this: If (when) the Pacific Parlor car is gone, will it be replaced with another Sightseer lounge?


I imagine that if there are sufficient SSLs, yes. Another possibility is a CCC. They've already get staff allocated for the PPC, so a mere change of equipment (from Hi-Level to Superliner) is an easy transition.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato

Regarding replacing the Parlour with another lounge, I think that if such was really considered, then there wouldnt be a need to reduce it to just twice a week during the winter. They could have cycled the cars through maintenance and used those as a replacement on an as-needed basis.


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## crescent-zephyr

If current management wanted the service, I think the cars had another year or 2 in them. I also think the announcement would be that the cars were being retired but the service would continue with SSL or CCC cars.


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## pennyk

This was posted on FaceBook:


----------



## George K

Saw that...

I guess you can say that the "ongoing work to modernize its fleet of equipment" can include removal of heritage equipment.

Hopefully, they will find a suitable substitute (though I doubt it).


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## chakk

Having watched The Minneapolis Miracle live on a restaurant TV, I immediately purchased a sleeper ticket on the last CS-with-PPC as soon as I read the “rumor”. And got a low-bucket roomette for my initiative.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## aviva_dawn

Devil's Advocate said:


> Thank you for the advance warning. I might have to take one last trip before they're gone.


Me too! Me too!

I'll do LAX to SBA on the CS and then back to LAX on the Surfliner one last time 

_and....that's a wash. I'm not off from work on the days when it leaves from LAX. _

I have some very precious memories of the PPC over the years, and boy will it be missed.


----------



## calwatch

They'll definitely need another CCC during peak season, the diner is just way too crowded.


----------



## Anderson

George K said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> The PPCs are special for me and I suspect many others for several reasons...maybe a route or two like the Starlight or Zephyr might be really well to consider a Prestiege option.
> 
> 
> 
> Clipped for saving pixels.
> 
> Interesting comments. And good points throughout.
> 
> I understand, and agree, with all your points. But...I have to ask the question: Is Amtrak a transportation company, or a cruise company? If the answer is the former, there's really no need for the PPC (as much as I enjoyed it a few years ago). If the answer is the latter, then...well, there you go.
> 
> I have no idea if eliminating the PPC will cost ridership, but I'd guess it won't (see "transportation company"), and, in a few years, most riders won't know the difference.
> 
> I'm not agreeing with the decision, at all. Just trying to understand the financial decisions behind it. Face it, it's always about the Benjamins, isn't it? As much as I'd like to have a "premium experience" for my hard-earned bucks, that's not Amtrak's vision. After all, riders on the EB, CZ, CS don't complain about the lack of a similar "premium experience,"
Click to expand...

Ok, I disagree that there's no utility for a premium-cabin amenity car, at least on the more heavily-trafficked LD trains. I would first point out the mess when such a space was cut on the Auto Train a few years ago (and ridership duly took a nosedive after about a year; correlation may not be causation, but in this case the timing was amost perfect for it). Second, I would point out that Amtrak's own PIPs indicated issues with overwhelmed dining cars on the Builder. IIRC the Starlight has more sleeper pax than the Builder and the PPC has provided a certain amount of "relief" space.

I also think the two purposes ("cruise" trains and "transportation" trains) are not mutually exclusive and it is possible to market to both sorts of audience. If anything, arranging to do so allows them to split overhead and at the end of the day the "cruise" pax will likely end up sort-of subsidizing the "transportation" pax. Witness VIA's Prestige Class on the Canadian as a handy example...my understanding is that said product has knocked several million dollars per year off of the losses of the Canadian.


----------



## Larry H.

In his statement the CEO, Anderson says what I always thought Amtrak believed. The cars that used to be hauled to attract passengers to the train are now considered as not worth running. Well I can tell him that often my decision as to wether to use the train depends on the dinner and lounge. (So now I hardly every ride). The worst part is the idea that the very busy New York/ Chicago Lakeshore has or had, a awful lounge consisting of an old Amfleet dinner with little to no upgrade to make it seem the least appealing. Don't they know that almost all movies from the days of rail take place in cozy well designed lounge cars where people enjoyed the trip with other passengers? To think we should be happy to spend thousands of dollars for a room and then be stuck in it 24/7 is pretty shallow. Those cars ran for a reason, and the reason was to entice passengers.


----------



## George K

Larry H. said:


> Those cars ran for a reason, and the reason was to entice passengers.


Yes, but "those cars to attract passengers" numbered only five (four?). They existed on exactly one route. People who don't ride the CS (and I've only ridden it once) don't know, or care. They, presumably, enjoy what they *do* have, and it's good enough - for them. It will be interesting so see if ridership takes a hit after removal of the car.


----------



## Larry H.

George K said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those cars ran for a reason, and the reason was to entice passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but "those cars to attract passengers" numbered only five (four?). They existed on exactly one route. People who don't ride the CS (and I've only ridden it once) don't know, or care. They, presumably, enjoy what they *do* have, and it's good enough - for them. It will be interesting so see if ridership takes a hit after removal of the car.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but if you recall when an actual attempt at upgrading the Empire Builder to provide more enticements to rail travel the trains were sold out for long periods often. I didn't mean that one train represented what I am taking about. I meant that in the past, which some say is the past, all long distance trains that were worth riding had first class lounges, some first class diners, observation fan tail lounges on the rear often, card rooms, book cases of reading material, desk for writing company postcards showing your trip and features of the train. One response here will be "well that was then and this is now". I mentioned in another comment that watching some of the worlds best still running long distance trains all have exactly those kinds of features, they don't seem to think they are unnecessary. The Canadian being one example for sure, but then its using the original vintage cars which are fine, but when you check out some of the latter Japanese and other trains you will see wonderful modern adaptions that put us to shame.


----------



## TinCan782

I haven't spent a lot of my travel time in the PPC...typically it may be while waiting to be called for lunch or dinner or perhaps to purchase and enjoy a beer.

I also have received the phone call the day before the trip apologizing for the lack of PPC (at that time, Amtrak didn't even provide a substitute car.

While i have enjoyed my times in the PPC, the existence of them on the Coast Starlight (or first class "lounge" on any other train for that matter) has not been a deal/no deal for me.

I'll still be riding the Coast Starlight sans PPC just as I will, and have traveled, on other LD trains that don't have such an amenity.

I do like the idea of a separate lounge car for sleeper passengers and the PPC certainly served nicely. For me, a Cross Country Cafe would be a suitable substitute.

I won't be rushing to take "one last ride" in the PPC nor will I stop using Amtrak just because it will no longer exist.

A part of me does ride the train for the sake of riding the train but, trains are how my wife and I plan and take our vacations...the train is part of the vacation.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

For me, the Parlour car definitely sold me on taking the Starlight and Empire Builder vs. the Chief (although the semaphores on the chief, also slowly going away, are also quite neat).

Generally speaking, as long as I have a comfortable accomodation and a way to enjoy the scenery, that's all that I need to ride the train. Even the diner is not a make it or break it for me. The sightseer lounge is on some routes.


----------



## Skyline

I do not see anything approaching the Canadian's Prestige Service, or the Park cars, _*ever*_ on an Amtrak train going forward. However, I do see privately operated rail cruises continuing in some manner to serve that market and so long as it's still operating there's still The Canadian. Both the Prestige Service and private rail cruises are generally not within means for most folks (financially), so Amtrak realizing this has not catered to the 1% for quite awhile. Sad but true.

I've looked into doing a private rail cruise but not for at least 10 years, so I assume what I looked at back then might be defunct or changed. This may need to be a bucket list thing that will blow a $$$ hole in my other retirement plans. Do any of you have any decent (domestic) recommendations for a 4-7 day private rail cruise?


----------



## PVD

Point to ponder: If the revenue loss due to any decrease in passengers due to this move is considerably less than the cost of operating and maintaining these cars going forward, regardless of our sentimental attachment, wouldn't it be a sound business decision?


----------



## CHamilton

Here's the link to the advisory on Amtrak's website. https://www.amtrak.com/alert/pacific-parlour-car-retired.html


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Point to ponder: If the revenue loss due to any decrease in passengers due to this move is considerably less than the cost of operating and maintaining these cars going forward, regardless of our sentimental attachment, wouldn't it be a sound business decision?


I don't think anyone truly believes this specific decision isn't a prudent move from a financial perspective. But if prudence is all we're after then retiring the entire Superliner fleet and laying off most of the staff West of Chicago would probably save a lot more money. It just depends on how far you want to push this line of reasoning before you end up with a few busy commuter corridors and not much else.


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## PVD

It can't be the be all and end all, operating a system with a wide benefit to large parts of the country is different than catering to a niche audience, the system will never be profitable, nor should anyone expect it to be. But here you are removing a service where that removal may be a benefit to the overall system we wish to preserve.


----------



## cpotisch

If they have sufficient SSLs, why not literally take the interiors out of the current PPCs, and put it into an SSL. Amtrak wouldn't need to buy any sofas, booths, tables, etc. There's the cost of (re)moving the Hi-Level interiors and of ditching the current SSL interior, but that would be about it. Granted, it would be a newer and less historic car, but the 'PPC II' would actually offer better views than before (bigger windows), be much cheaper to maintain, and _in theory_ have a near-identical interior. I think that's the best way to move forward.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

For what it is worth, I have already booked three trips(February, April, June) using portions or all of the Coast Starlight route in 2018 in roomette on each trip. No consideration was given to whether the PPC would be available. I did use it for meals last June on a trip LAX to Portland but literally froze and wore a light weight coat while eating in the PPC. I would not repeat that experience even if offered. The Coast Starlight is only third in my favorite LD routes. California Zephyr is number one and Empire Builder is number two. I always find adequate space available when passing through the sightseer lounge on those two trains but admit I don't travel in peak seasons.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Skyline said:


> I do not see anything approaching the Canadian's Prestige Service, or the Park cars, _*ever*_ on an Amtrak train going forward.


For me, the Parlour Cars offered more, and better service than the Park Cars. When I rode the Canadian, my Park Car Attendants weren't anything better or worse than the Parlour Car attendants I had. The swivel chairs were more comfortable than the chairs in the Park Car, and they offered a second, private meal option. I do enjoy meeting people in the diner... but there was something very special about enjoying a private table in the Parlour Car.

The Canadian's Prestige is a special animal that really doesn't have anything to do in comparison with the Parlour Cars so I won't ramble on about my thoughts.


----------



## Anderson

Skyline said:


> I do not see anything approaching the Canadian's Prestige Service, or the Park cars, _*ever*_ on an Amtrak train going forward. However, I do see privately operated rail cruises continuing in some manner to serve that market and so long as it's still operating there's still The Canadian. Both the Prestige Service and private rail cruises are generally not within means for most folks (financially), so Amtrak realizing this has not catered to the 1% for quite awhile. Sad but true.
> 
> I've looked into doing a private rail cruise but not for at least 10 years, so I assume what I looked at back then might be defunct or changed. This may need to be a bucket list thing that will blow a $$$ hole in my other retirement plans. Do any of you have any decent (domestic) recommendations for a 4-7 day private rail cruise?


(1) Amtrak could (and I would argue should) work with third-party operators to try and encourage such a business (and the associated haulage fees, which really do add up pretty quickly). From what I've heard, as often as not Amtrak has been a honey badger about this on many occasions (bordering on hostile on occasion). Granted, _some_ of this has been from Ed Ellis, but what he's said has the ring of truth in many cases. A handy example is Amtrak not being *ahem* terribly open to having PV/charter pax board and disembark at _any_ intermediate stations on their run (e.g. Iowa Pacific couldn't, as far as I can tell, sell tickets on their Chicago-New Orleans run to/from Memphis or Jackson).

(2) With that being said, there _was_ an attempt to do something like this under the Warrington plans, so it isn't utterly implausible. We can argue about the market size (I think there's generally been enough of a market to back it up on at least a modest scale...maybe the "premium service" runs once or twice a week as part of the scheduled consist) but the market _is_ there.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Does an amenity like the Parlour Car help sell higher priced sleeper tickets? I would think the cost of the Parlour Car should have been built into the cost of the sleeper tickets. For example each superliner sleeper has 20 revenue rooms... add $50 per room and thats $1,000 per sold out sleeper IF the room only gets sold once. With Amtrak sleeper prices that $50 isn't going to turn anyone away from booking. I would think $2-4,000 per trip would cover the cost of the car.

The better service you offer, the more repeat service you will get. I think that's just a given in any type of business.

I'm arguing more for the Parlour Car Service, and less for the physical Santa-Fe hi-levels. The railfan in me got a kick out them.. but that's it. The Amtrak transit passenger in me greatly appreciated the SERVICE the Parlour Car provided, regardless of it being a SSL or PPC (I never rode with a CCC car used so I can't really speak on it.)


----------



## Triley

Ryan said:


> Were someone in management to take in interest, it probably wouldn't be that hard to figure out.
> 
> We get it, you're deeply hurt by Amtrak taking your toys away, but telling an employee to "get a life" when they express a concern about fellow employees should be beneath you.


Right. Wouldn't surprise me for Amtrak to find a way. Many years ago, working at a corporate owned bowling center, with about a hundred other locations in North America, I posted a couple of videos of the pinsetters and the machine that oils the lanes for people who were curious. Nothing other than how many lanes the center had would give away what location it could possibly be, even though many other centers had the same amount of lanes.
Within a few weeks somehow corporate saw them, figured out it was me, and I was being talked to by my GM.

When there's a will, there's a way...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## sechs

I don't think people would be as worked up about it if it wasn't so sudden, and there was some kind of plan moving forward.

If Amtrak had simply announced that the regular schedule would not resume as previously planned in March because the cars were no longer reasonable to maintain, people would have time to come to terms with the end of the service and, for those who can, take one last ride. Putting it to bed properly, as it were.

Also, if there was any kind of follow-up plan, folks would know what was happening next. They've simply pulled the rug out from under passengers. Particularly during high-ridership periods, the additional meal and lounge space will be missed.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I'm not sure some people get the concept of trying to maintain a 62-year-old antique in revenue service like this, especially as things break and super-special customized parts have to be fabricated every time something does. Rail cars being operated in regular service the way these were do NOT last for ever. I doubt an extra $50 per passenger revenue would come close to making the car have a positive return on investment. Heck, $50 a day is about the revenue sleeper passengers would bring in at menu prices for a dining car, and those still don't make a profit.

The way this happened suddenly, after Anderson (CEO) made comments about no intention for amenity cuts for sleeping passengers, I'm going to guess that the budget for keeping these cars on the road for another year came across his desk and he had a cow.


----------



## zephyr17

I do like how they justified it as part of "fleet modernization" considering they have no real modernization plans for the Superliner long distance fleet.

However, I have that thought that the PPCs have been on borrowed time for a long time, so I am not at all surprised. I also read into the "...Amtrak is reviewing amenities..." note that the amenities are gone, they are really not contemplating using Diner-Lounges or SSLs to provide PPC service. "Review" in many circumstances is a euphamism for "quietly let die". The Starlight will become just another standard Superliner LD.

Thank you, Brian Rosenwald, for creating it. It was great while it lasted.


----------



## cpotisch

zephyr17 said:


> I do like how they justified it as part of "fleet modernization" considering they have no real modernization plans for the Superliner long distance fleet.
> 
> However, I have that thought that the PPCs have been on borrowed time for a long time, so I am not at all surprised. I also read into the "...Amtrak is reviewing amenities..." note that the amenities are gone, they are really not contemplating using Diner-Lounges or SSLs to provide PPC service. "Review" in many circumstances is a euphamism for "quietly let die". The Starlight will become just another standard Superliner LD.
> 
> Thank you, Brian Rosenwald. It was great while it lasted.


However, if the reason for PPC retirement is maintenance of the equipment, then I don’t see why Amtrak would want to ditch the CS first class lounge altogether. An unstaffed CCC or SSL would cost them nothing but diesel.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## crescent-zephyr

GML "I doubt an extra $50 per passenger revenue would come close to making the car have a positive return on investment."

What does it cost then? I was actually saying $50 per room... Which would be $1,000 per sold out sleeper. Since rooms can be sold multiple times... That's $2-3,000 per trip. If a car makes 2 trips a week that's $312,000 per year.

I thought I was pretty clear that I wasn't saying that service had to be the heritage hi-levels. I was arguing the finances of having the service.


----------



## zephyr17

cpotisch said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do like how they justified it as part of "fleet modernization" considering they have no real modernization plans for the Superliner long distance fleet.
> 
> However, I have that thought that the PPCs have been on borrowed time for a long time, so I am not at all surprised. I also read into the "...Amtrak is reviewing amenities..." note that the amenities are gone, they are really not contemplating using Diner-Lounges or SSLs to provide PPC service. "Review" in many circumstances is a euphamism for "quietly let die". The Starlight will become just another standard Superliner LD.
> 
> Thank you, Brian Rosenwald. It was great while it lasted.
> 
> 
> 
> However, if the reason for PPC retirement is maintenance of the equipment, then I don’t see why Amtrak would want to ditch the CS first class lounge altogether. An unstaffed CCC or SSL would cost them nothing but diesel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

There are still costs associated with keeping those cars available in a dedicated pool. Now the Starlight becomes just another standard Superliner consist requiring no dedicated equipment at all. Not really defending it, but I can definitely see the management reasoning for it. Besides, Amtrak management really doesn't give a lusty crap about anything outside the NEC anyway.

I'll miss them, I loved those things. But, as I said, I've been expecting it for a long time. I'll keep riding the Starlight, because it serves where I live and it goes where I want to go. For a better train riding experience than run-of-the-mill Amtrak, the Canadian is easily accessible for me. I like domes better than a Hi-Level lounge anyway. Plus there's all that "extra" time on board Via is providing these days, courtesy of CN...


----------



## Anderson

Green Maned Lion said:


> I'm not sure some people get the concept of trying to maintain a 62-year-old antique in revenue service like this, especially as things break and super-special customized parts have to be fabricated every time something does. Rail cars being operated in regular service the way these were do NOT last for ever. I doubt an extra $50 per passenger revenue would come close to making the car have a positive return on investment. Heck, $50 a day is about the revenue sleeper passengers would bring in at menu prices for a dining car, and those still don't make a profit.
> 
> The way this happened suddenly, after Anderson (CEO) made comments about no intention for amenity cuts for sleeping passengers, I'm going to guess that the budget for keeping these cars on the road for another year came across his desk and he had a cow.


Which is, pardon the phrase, no way to run a railroad. Turning around and demanding that the cars be cut basically overnight, with no plan coming out, really rankles (especially since IIRC two of them had already been overhauled and were likely still usable at least for the 2018 season). Had they announced that the reduced schedule would continue through the end of the year, with an extra CCC-or-something filling the role during the summer for other dates? We'd grumble, but there's grumbling and there's looking at the train and getting a really bad feeling on issues with cutting the added space, etc.


----------



## Ballyhoogirl

This always happens to me. Our first Amtrak trip was in a roomette. We were expecting a diner car. A few months after we booked the trip they said they were doing a trial of discontinuing the diner car from this train. We have taken several other trips with diner car since then. We were finalizing our trip today for the Fall on the Coast Starlight, and very much looking forward to the Parlor car. So sad we will miss this.


----------



## flitcraft

Ironic that this past Monday, I got an email from Amtrak responding (after several weeks!) to my inquiry about when the PPC's would be back permanently. The email said:

"The Pacific Parlour Cars will return to the Coast Starlight beginning Thursday, March 15, 2018. We hope this is helpful. "

Immensely. 

Incidentally, I still haven't gotten an email concerning my March booked CS regarding the elimination of the PPC. Notwithstanding my specific inquiry.


----------



## west point

It may be as simple explanation of inability to maintain asbestos mitigation ?


----------



## Thirdrail7

There's a lot to tackle in this thread so we'll take it in no particular order.



rtabern said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> You may want too keep those comments to yourself, about employees showing you confidential documents... It could cost someone their job.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? And how is my post going to cost someone their job when I don't (and would NEVER) give out the names of said employees... doesn't make any sense. Get a life.
Click to expand...




rtabern said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were someone in management to take in interest, it probably wouldn't be that hard to figure out.
> 
> We get it, you're deeply hurt by Amtrak taking your toys away, but telling an employee to "get a life" when they express a concern about fellow employees should be beneath you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, "management" is going to be able to figure out which out of thousands of ticket agents called me on my personal cell phone from their personal cell phone to tell me the news... Seriously?
> 
> Maybe Whooz' favorite secret agent Patrick Lynch will be put on this one... (anyone remember those posts!)
Click to expand...

Rtabern, you can afford to have a cavalier attitude because you have nothing to lose. While it is true that they may never be able to find your source (if they even bothered to search), it still puts the rest of the people under the gun. I know for a fact the previous regime had a corporate presence on TO and Railroad.net. Letters were sent to the employees homes about posting information found on the INTERNAL intranet. Termination is possible if the IG got involved. I don't know what would happen if the IG or law enforcement demanded the identity of an employee on this board but it hardly seems worth it. That is why so many former employees have vanished over the last couple of years. While I'd like to think the current regime isn't as obsessed with privacy and images, the policy still stands (and if you're an employee that hasn't seen it for some reason, send a PM so you can see exactly what you're up against.).

So, Rtabern, if someone tells you something from an internal source, perhaps you should take a cue from people that "drop hints' *cough cough*, say nothing until it becomes public (like Anderson) instead of blurting out that people are showing things you aren't supposed to see. Such an act has the potential to put this board under the watch as well and even if it doesn't, the other side affect is information that was previously easy to find has been buried under levels of clearance or in some cases, has been removed from the intranet. This doesn't help anyone.

That being said, I think we are seeing the previous discussed concepts from the Greenville, SC (GRV) to be Unstaffed Effective June 15, 2017. Notably:



> I noticed one thing about the previous regime. While they lobbied Congress for support, you rarely saw them approach them for additional funds between appropriations. You rarely saw them saying 'if we don't cash now, we'll have to shut down this or that." As such, something has to give. Even though Amtrak has managed to find funds for certain things, each year is costs more and more to accomplish the same things. Each day, the cars grow older and require more (specialized) maintenance. Each year, the ties grow older and more costly to maintain. Each year, the P-32AC/DMs get older and since GE stopped making parts for them, they become more expensive to maintain and repair. Each year, the tunnels and infrastructure surrounding NYP grow older with more trains operating on them ever. Yet, funds are flat.
> 
> What to do?
> 
> *One of the easiest targets is labor. How much are you getting for the labor that you are providing? While I agree that some of these cuts will definitely impact ridership, the people making these decisions are looking at it from a cost center point of view. Period. It is easy for them since they are not actually passengers. Additionally, you'll find that most rail providers aren't top heavy with actual railroaders. They are top heavy with employees with financial backgrounds, focused on the bottom line. That doesn't necessarily make them bad railroaders but it does mean they may not understand "the product." During the last years of the Boardman tenure, you saw an influx of airline employees moving into key positions. They still think like airline employees and it shows. They were also fixated on the short to medium distance passengers and a lot of the policies show it. However, they were given a mandate:" this is the money you have...work with it and see how we can survive. " As such, they may not even be interested in what the product "was" or "could be" and may go with "this is all it is going to be or we'll run out of money."*The vision lurches from year to year based upon the funds granted. That is no way to run a railroad.


Unfortunately, the long distance traveler may be the victim when it comes time to the budget. Rtabern's letter spells it out in spades. What is the cost? What "provable" revenue does it generate? I don't know why these cars need so much maintenance but assuming it isn't a ploy, would we rather spend money on these cars or the engines that pull them?

Personally, I think it is a mistake to whittle away at the amenities. This was done before and it didn't work out. Trains don't have an advantage of speed like a plane nor do they have the cost structure of a bus. So, what exactly is Amtrak bringing to the table? It should be something memorable to justify the costs. It should be something to bring you back. It should be something to make you say "do you remember that time?" Otherwise, what is the point? If you wanted to ride a bus on steel wheels, then you might as well ride an actual bus.

Maybe Tricia is right! As Amtrak continues to cut station personnel, maybe they should mothball the new baggage cars as well. How much revenue are they generating?





I think I will continue the rest of my rant in the CEO thread.


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> The show is indeed over as indicated. Its time. For what the cars and offerings are today its a highly overrated experience. The goal is to reduce expenses and car miles. If the parlour cars have to be the sacrifice to make the financials of the Coast Starlight better, so be it.


This may be true but it doesn't answer why. It didn't have to be an overrated experience based upon the offerings. Someone CHOSE to take everything that made that car special and lobbed it right in the budget cut bin! Now, that may have been because someone decided it wasn't worth it, but that was a choice. The same can be said for the Auto Pain. The cuts have eliminated the perks and the riders have noticed. Sure, you can blame OTP but it's not like that train had the best OTP prior to the cuts. The difference is the passengers felt like they were getting something for their money. They weren't just getting transportation. They were getting a trip.

I can respect that there are real issues with skinny budgets and deteriorating assets, but it takes money to make money. Not everything should be measured in direct revenue generation particularly if you have no way to definitely track it (like checked baggage) because what's the plan if this causes more bleeding?


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> An unstaffed CCC or SSL would cost them nothing but diesel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Hmmm. What's the operative word in that sentence?


----------



## Ryan

Diesel?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Green Maned Lion said:


> The way this happened suddenly, after Anderson (CEO) made comments about no intention for amenity cuts for sleeping passengers, I'm going to guess that the budget for keeping these cars on the road for another year came across his desk and he had a cow.


It "probably" has more to do with him riding the train, seeing it in person and deciding the money to preserve these cars was better spent on other things. Hell, maybe you can all pitch in and buy them.





Too bad they won;t fir in electrified territory. There were some AEM-7s for sale too! You could have a whole train!


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> Thought this might be worthy of a new thread.
> 
> The PPCs are being retired from service. The last northbound trip from LAX will be on Friday, February 2 returning from SEA on February 4. Nothing was mentioned about a separate First Class Lounge continuing or not in place of the PPC.
> 
> With the last of the Heritage Diners quickly making their way to the exits as well, 2018 will mark the end of a very long era.


I am not surprised at this.

I'm glad I managed to experience a PPC a couple of months ago when I went to Seattle & Portland to see the Tacoma Narrows route before the train moved to the Point Defiance Bypass. I thought it was my last chance at the Narrows... turned out it was the last chance at the PPC.

Despite riding the Coast Starlight many times before, the PPC had *always* been broken and replaced with a Sightseer Lounge on my previous trips, year after year... so it was obvious to me that they were barely holding on. I'm surprised they lasted this long.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the amenity of a separate lounge space for sleeper passengers actually being removed from the Coast Starlight, or just the Hi-level equipment? Previously, plans from Amtrak indicated the Parlor Cars would be replaced by (remodeled/rebuilt) _Cross Country Cafe_ diner-lounge cars (but this also wasn't supposed to happen for a few years). Presumably, plans have changed.
> 
> So, the very last Heritage cars on Amtrak are finally at an end. Had anyone suggested in 1971 or even the early 80's that some of these cars would be operating into 2018, you'd have been laughed right off the railroad. Quite a remarkable achievement (about seventy years of service for some diners). Other than company service cars, I have to wonder when the last Heritage baggage cars will finally be withdrawn (axle count service).
> 
> 
> 
> The announcement wasn't specific regarding the actual lounge amenity, just that the Heritage PPCs are being retired due to age and cost. I certainly hope the separate lounge space continues for First Class guests, but we shall have to wait and see.
Click to expand...

I'm going to make an educated guess that the separate lounge will be available during the busy season. That's the primary reason for the PPC -- in the busy season the regular lounge is overcrowded and the regular dining car is overbooked, so the separate lounge takes the pressure off. A number of reports were saying that they needed one on the Empire Builder in busy season too. They may not have a separate lounge in the winter low season.


----------



## neroden

Seaboard92 said:


> I find it funny Canadians are majorly griping about the prestige class, and the addition to them getting private park car access almost the entire day. Yet people here seem to think it's a great thing.
> 
> I'm going to take a NARP/RPA viewpoint for once and say trains are for modern transportation not to be seen as vintage or as a cruise. That's what's going to be the Canadian's downfall it's slipped from intercity passenger travel to foreign tourists taking a land cruise.


I've said this repeatedly, but anything less than daily service is unusable. The Canadian has slipped from daily, to four a week, to three a week, to two a week in the low season... what's next, one a week? There's basically no way I can use it. I've got a very flexible schedule but I cannot make it work.


----------



## neroden

Devil's Advocate said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I do plan on doing that, it's hard to take foreign trains for transportation when I need to travel in the USA... Even when I took the Canadian, I still needed to get from NYC to the west coast... I just took a route that was a bit out of the way ha.
> 
> 
> 
> These days for most of my US trips I drive or fly. Amtrak timekeeping is not dependable enough for most of my trips and in many ways has become little more than a nostalgic (and expensive) joyride at this point. I live fifteen minutes away from an airport with nonstop flights to every major hub, two hours away from an airport with nonstop flights to every major metro, and three hours away from an airport that has nonstop flights to virtually every commercial airport of statistical relevance. So maybe it's time to complete your journey to the dark side. It's faster and easier and sometimes they even serve cookies! But on more serious note, once you're done mourning the loss of the PPC you might want to consider making time and money available for a few joyrides in other countries. Foreign HSR is here to stay and growing rapidly, but foreign sleeper trains are disappearing quickly and will soon be relegated to the history books.
Click to expand...

There are a lot of sleeper trains going away in Europe, and if you want to experience them, do it now. But I don't think sleeper service as a whole is going away. It seems to be alive and well in both China and Russia, both of which have some *very* long train routes; China actually has HSR sleepers, and I doubt the Trans-Siberian sleepers will ever go away. The main thing which happened in Europe is that HSR makes Western European trips too quick to make sense as sleeper routes. They're just about long enough if you go from one side of Germany to the other, but Deutsche Bahn didn't want to run sleeper service for the benefit of people travelling from one non-German location to another non-German location; they dropped their sleeper trains but Austria promptly picked up most of them, because Vienna is one of the primary beneficiaries of the routes.


----------



## neroden

Trogdor said:


> As for the actual retirement, I do think Amtrak missed an opportunity for some extra revenue and do a proper send-off. Given that they have at least a couple of good cars left, they could have done something akin to the UA 747 retirement, even if only announced a month or two in advance. Have a special "last train" celebration. Heck, maybe even run them on the SW Chief (as a nod to their ATSF) heritage, en route to Beech Grove (if that's where they're going to go in retirement).


Doing this as an advertised special -- PPC from LA to Chicago, five days only! -- would definitely raise some extra cash! Why not?

They have to be "good to roll" to get them from LA to Chicago. Why not make them a special, advertised, extra-cost amenity for five days (five SWC departures)?


----------



## neroden

Larry H. said:


> The worst part is the idea that the very busy New York/ Chicago Lakeshore has or had, a awful lounge consisting of an old Amfleet dinner with little to no upgrade to make it seem the least appealing.


The LSL situation is, indeed, terrible. I did a lot of calculation at one time  and figured out that the LSL has the most profitable sleeper cars in the system -- apparently it attracts the least price-sensitive clientele. It's also documented to have the largest coach passenger usage of the dining car of all the trains.

This is a train where a nice lounge and a decent dining car *will* bring in revenue. But the idiots at Amtrak who don't know how to count beans have left it without even a proper dining car for years on end.


----------



## CHamilton

From the Coast Starlight group on Facebook.



> There is an updated service alert - due to high demand, one extra Parlour car trip will be made departing LAX on 1/31 and departing SEA on 2/2. All of the regular Parlour car services will be available.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> Diesel?


To pull the car.


----------



## Chey

Tennessee Traveler said:


> For what it is worth, I have already booked three trips(February, April, June) using portions or all of the Coast Starlight route in 2018 in roomette on each trip. No consideration was given to whether the PPC would be available. I did use it for meals last June on a trip LAX to Portland but literally froze and wore a light weight coat while eating in the PPC. I would not repeat that experience even if offered. The Coast Starlight is only third in my favorite LD routes. California Zephyr is number one and Empire Builder is number two. I always find adequate space available when passing through the sightseer lounge on those two trains but admit I don't travel in peak seasons.


It may sound like heresy to some, but even though I liked my two experiences with the PPC, I'd take the Surfliner business class over the CS with the PPC in a heartbeat, any day, if only it went to SJC.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diesel?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To pull the car.
Click to expand...

No s—t. You missed the joke. 
(Hint: the correct answer was “unstaffed”).


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diesel?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To pull the car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No s—t. You missed the joke.
> (Hint: the correct answer was “unstaffed”).
Click to expand...

Still don't get it.


----------



## Ryan

TR7 pointed out that the operative word in your post was “unstaffed”, since the PPC obviously wasn’t unstaffed.

My poor joke was picking an obviously wrong operative word, but I guess that’s only funny if you understood the point he was making.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Chey said:


> Tennessee Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> For what it is worth, I have already booked three trips(February, April, June) using portions or all of the Coast Starlight route in 2018 in roomette on each trip. No consideration was given to whether the PPC would be available. I did use it for meals last June on a trip LAX to Portland but literally froze and wore a light weight coat while eating in the PPC. I would not repeat that experience even if offered. The Coast Starlight is only third in my favorite LD routes. California Zephyr is number one and Empire Builder is number two. I always find adequate space available when passing through the sightseer lounge on those two trains but admit I don't travel in peak seasons.
> 
> 
> 
> It may sound like heresy to some, but even though I liked my two experiences with the PPC, I'd take the Surfliner business class over the CS with the PPC in a heartbeat, any day, if only it went to SJC.
Click to expand...

Lots of truth here! It's a reminder that "Business Class" is an ongoing lottery @ Amtrak! California,Oregon/Washington and Maine do it well, the other Trains that Amtrak runs are all over the map!


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> TR7 pointed out that the operative word in your post was “unstaffed”, since the PPC obviously wasn’t unstaffed.
> 
> My poor joke was picking an obviously wrong operative word, but I guess that’s only funny if you understood the point he was making.


Got it. Thanks.


----------



## TiBike

Chey said:


> It may sound like heresy to some, but even though I liked my two experiences with the PPC, I'd take the Surfliner business class over the CS with the PPC in a heartbeat, any day, if only it went to SJC.


Amen. Same with the Capitol Corridor, even though it doesn't have business class. Both the CC and the Surfliner have clean trains that can be relied on to be on time. There are exceptions, but there's a difference between occasional exceptions and business as usual. The cafe food (and beer/wine selection) on both is superior to what you get in the Starlight's dining car (and, in my experience, what you used to get in the PPC). And forget about the food in the Starlight's cafe.

There's also a big difference in onboard staff. Excellence is the norm. I've never had an unpleasant interaction with CC or Surfliner staff, or an experience that failed to meet good customer service standards.

Both respond to changing customer needs and demand. The Capitol Corridor for (my usual  example is improving bicycle facilities on board and at stations, and bends over backwards to accomodate increasing demand while those upgrades are in progress. Another good example is the rapid response to the highway closure between Santa Barbara and Ventura. Extra equipment from the CC and San Joaquins was dispatched, and the Surfliner increased service as fast as possible -- they've even added another train.

Californians would be better served by eliminating the Starlight and extending the corridor trains north and south.


----------



## Thirdrail7

TiBike said:


> Amen. Same with the Capitol Corridor, even though it doesn't have business class. Both the CC and the Surfliner have clean trains that can be relied on to be on time. There are exceptions, but there's a difference between occasional exceptions and business as usual. The cafe food (and beer/wine selection) on both is superior to what you get in the Starlight's dining car (and, in my experience, what you used to get in the PPC). And forget about the food in the Starlight's cafe.
> 
> There's also a big difference in onboard staff. Excellence is the norm. I've never had an unpleasant interaction with CC or Surfliner staff, or an experience that failed to meet good customer service standards.
> 
> Both respond to changing customer needs and demand. The Capitol Corridor for (my usual  example is improving bicycle facilities on board and at stations, and bends over backwards to accomodate increasing demand while those upgrades are in progress. Another good example is the rapid response to the highway closure between Santa Barbara and Ventura. Extra equipment from the CC and San Joaquins was dispatched, and the Surfliner increased service as fast as possible -- they've even added another train.
> 
> Californians would be better served by eliminating the Starlight and extending the corridor trains north and south.


Californians don't really pay much for the entire cost of the Starlight since it is part of the LD network so eliminating it doesn't really free up anything. Additionally, once you start extending your "regional" and "commuter" services, you start to to fall into the trappings (OTP/unreliability) and regulations (intermediate tests/ hours of services) of long distance trains.


----------



## Anderson

TiBike said:


> Chey said:
> 
> 
> 
> It may sound like heresy to some, but even though I liked my two experiences with the PPC, I'd take the Surfliner business class over the CS with the PPC in a heartbeat, any day, if only it went to SJC.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen. Same with the Capitol Corridor, even though it doesn't have business class. Both the CC and the Surfliner have clean trains that can be relied on to be on time. There are exceptions, but there's a difference between occasional exceptions and business as usual. The cafe food (and beer/wine selection) on both is superior to what you get in the Starlight's dining car (and, in my experience, what you used to get in the PPC). And forget about the food in the Starlight's cafe.
> 
> There's also a big difference in onboard staff. Excellence is the norm. I've never had an unpleasant interaction with CC or Surfliner staff, or an experience that failed to meet good customer service standards.
> 
> Both respond to changing customer needs and demand. The Capitol Corridor for (my usual  example is improving bicycle facilities on board and at stations, and bends over backwards to accomodate increasing demand while those upgrades are in progress. Another good example is the rapid response to the highway closure between Santa Barbara and Ventura. Extra equipment from the CC and San Joaquins was dispatched, and the Surfliner increased service as fast as possible -- they've even added another train.
> 
> Californians would be better served by eliminating the Starlight and extending the corridor trains north and south.
Click to expand...

Given the need, system-wise, for a train from California up to the PNW (I think there's a solid transportation argument for this), you're basically talking about going to what existed before A-Day (where SP's Coast Daylight terminated in the Bay Area and you'd have to change trains to proceed to Portland...and I think again from Portland to Seattle). I will say that I think you'd want to add some sort of tourist-oriented premium class on a daylight train on at least one run per day in peak season (though possibly reducing it in the off-season to weekends only or something), and you'd probably need to beef up food service a bit (since LAX or SAN to somewhere in the Bay Area is a _long_ daylight run)...but something like this isn't actually a _bad_ idea as long as you could also reliably guarantee the NB connection, either at OKJ, EMY, SJC, or SAC (though I think SAC would be getting a bit late no matter what you try to do; I'd probably put the legal transfer at OKJ/EMY but consider running the Daylight(s) to SAC depending on ridership patterns [1]).

[1] Running said Daylight to San Francisco is an option, with the transfer being at SJC; I'd _really_ want to avoid multiple transfers (SJC/OKJ or 4th and King/OKJ).

Edit: I guess a serious question is whether most delays seem to crop up north of Sacramento or south of San Jose. Also, I thought the LD-ish regulations would probably only really require a crew change at Santa Barbara while intermediate tests don't kick in until something like 1500 miles (e.g. DEN/ABQ on the relevant trains).


----------



## Thirdrail7

Anderson said:


> Edit: I guess a serious question is whether most delays seem to crop up north of Sacramento or south of San Jose. Also, I thought the LD-ish regulations would probably only really require a crew change at Santa Barbara while intermediate tests don't kick in until something like 1500 miles (e.g. DEN/ABQ on the relevant trains).


Intermediate tests can still come into play if you exceed 1500 miles in a calendar day. As such, if you extend to an outlying/turnaround point without facilities, you may still need an intermediate test, particularly if the train equipment is "though" or becomes another train.

As for crewing, it depends on how you set up the runs. There are a lot of variables including scheduling, time of scheduled runs, how many runs you intend to have a crew complete with a cushion for hours of service and turnaround. Some of their runs already close in on double digits without and extension while others may stub end and cause held aways. Again, this is without an extension. These equal costs, particularly if you have to increase your manpower. One only has to look at Virginia to see how you have to constantly reevaluate the best ways to manage the costs of extensions.


----------



## akbrian

I've ridden the Coast Starlight down the west coast a few times, and really did enjoy the Pacific Parlour Car. Considering the cost of getting even a roomette is multiple times the cost of flying, a first class lounge is really a part of the experience that makes the cost of the trip worthwhile. It really is a beautiful trip, but who wants to be stuck in their roomette seeing only one side of the scenery all day? Having a nice place to socialize during the day is really part of the experience. This also means that sleeper car passengers will have to walk through the dining service to get to the Sightseer Lounge. I think this will have a negative impact on sleeper service desirability, and therefore viability. I can understand that perhaps the cars are at the end of their service life, but they need to be replaced some other kind of first class lounge.


----------



## TiBike

Thirdrail7 said:


> Californians don't really pay much for the entire cost of the Starlight since it is part of the LD network so eliminating it doesn't really free up anything. Additionally, once you start extending your "regional" and "commuter" services, you start to to fall into the trappings (OTP/unreliability) and regulations (intermediate tests/ hours of services) of long distance trains.


Agreed. It's not a matter of moving money or equipment from one spreadsheet column to another. But Richard Anderson has talked about the need to upgrade intercity corridor service and specifically mentioned SF to LA. So Amtrak and Caltrans might find themselves on common ground. Whether anything practical can come of it is another question.

And yes, the longer the run, the more it operates like long distance service. But the Surfliner already does a 350 mile run from San Diego to SLO, albeit much of it on dedicated Metrolink passenger track. LA to San Jose would be about 425 miles – that looks a lot more like a Surfliner run than the Starlight's 1,400 miles from Seattle to LA. Particularly if Caltrans is willing to pay for track upgrades -- that's been an ongoing element in the Coast Daylight discussions.

North of Sacramento, it's case closed. Even if on time performance (and cleanliness and food and...) were no better, simply changing the service from middle of the night to daytime would be a huge improvement.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

akbrian said:


> I've ridden the Coast Starlight down the west coast a few times, and really did enjoy the Pacific Parlour Car. Considering the cost of getting even a roomette is multiple times the cost of flying, a first class lounge is really a part of the experience that makes the cost of the trip worthwhile. It really is a beautiful trip, but who wants to be stuck in their roomette seeing only one side of the scenery all day? Having a nice place to socialize during the day is really part of the experience. This also means that sleeper car passengers will have to walk through the dining service to get to the Sightseer Lounge. I think this will have a negative impact on sleeper service desirability, and therefore viability. I can understand that perhaps the cars are at the end of their service life, but they need to be replaced some other kind of first class lounge.


On other trains sleeper pax have to walk through the diner to get to the lounge car. Why does the CS have to be special?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

By "other trains", I think you mean "literally every other train in the system".

Only exception I can think of is if you're in the sleepers on the Auto Train that are on the diner side.

Edit: NYP section of the LSL, too?


----------



## Thirdrail7

TiBike said:


> Agreed. It's not a matter of moving money or equipment from one spreadsheet column to another. But Richard Anderson has talked about the need to upgrade intercity corridor service and specifically mentioned SF to LA. So Amtrak and Caltrans might find themselves on common ground. Whether anything practical can come of it is another question.


He did say that Tbike. Let's think. It may become practical...if you...let's say...invest money that you save by not propping up another type of service that is deemed to yield little return. You may even, divert resources from said service to a corridor type service....like making the CS into a 4 car train and taking the extra equipment and putting towards a better frequency in your area.

It certainly sounds plausible, particularly if you're trying to cover your expenses and comply with PRIIA while still maintaining the network.







AmtrakBlue said:


> akbrian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've ridden the Coast Starlight down the west coast a few times, and really did enjoy the Pacific Parlour Car. Considering the cost of getting even a roomette is multiple times the cost of flying, a first class lounge is really a part of the experience that makes the cost of the trip worthwhile. It really is a beautiful trip, but who wants to be stuck in their roomette seeing only one side of the scenery all day? Having a nice place to socialize during the day is really part of the experience. This also means that sleeper car passengers will have to walk through the dining service to get to the Sightseer Lounge. I think this will have a negative impact on sleeper service desirability, and therefore viability. I can understand that perhaps the cars are at the end of their service life, but they need to be replaced some other kind of first class lounge.
> 
> 
> 
> On other trains sleeper pax have to walk through the diner to get to the lounge car. Why does the CS have to be special?
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Blue, I would only suggest that there is an opportunity since the equipment exists, the premise exists for a better class of service. Amtrak has CHOSEN not to nurture this and the writing doesn't bode well. Remember when they cut the SSL from the winter Capitol Punishment? Remember when they cut the sleeper lounge from the Auto Pain? Only a loud outcry and a hit to the CSI scores brought those cars back. This smacks of "what next?" and the lack of public support for the LD network makes it a valid question.


----------



## west point

Well the cars could be temporarily assigned to the Surfliners going thru Santa Barbara ? Any capacity there is needed ?


----------



## willem

Passengers in the Portland section of the Empire Builder do not walk through the diner to get to the lounge.


----------



## TiBike

Thirdrail7 said:


> He did say that Tbike. Let's think. It may become practical...if you...let's say...invest money that you save by not propping up another type of service that is deemed to yield little return. You may even, divert resources from said service to a corridor type service....like making the CS into a 4 car train and taking the extra equipment and putting towards a better frequency in your area.
> 
> It certainly sounds plausible, particularly if you're trying to cover your expenses and comply with PRIIA while still maintaining the network.


More cars, greater frequency where there are more passengers. Fewer cars, less frequency where there are fewer passengers. Might make sense. Particularly to an airline guy.


----------



## Chey

Bob Dylan said:


> Lots of truth here! It's a reminder that "Business Class" is an ongoing lottery @ Amtrak! California,Oregon/Washington and Maine do it well, the other Trains that Amtrak runs are all over the map!


I'd love to know how others like business class on the Starlight. I haven't tried it yet. But when I got on the Surfliner in Santa Barbara (to LAX) we were treated like gold. It was the most exceptional customer service I've ever experienced on Amtrak. The scenery was exquisite, as it would be [if I'd been in a roomette on the right side] on the Starlight. But the treatment we got from the staff was what made it for me.


----------



## Blackwolf

Chey said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of truth here! It's a reminder that "Business Class" is an ongoing lottery @ Amtrak! California,Oregon/Washington and Maine do it well, the other Trains that Amtrak runs are all over the map!
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love to know how others like business class on the Starlight. I haven't tried it yet. But when I got on the Surfliner in Santa Barbara (to LAX) we were treated like gold. It was the most exceptional customer service I've ever experienced on Amtrak. The scenery was exquisite, as it would be [if I'd been in a roomette on the right side] on the Starlight. But the treatment we got from the staff was what made it for me.
Click to expand...

Rode it for the first time last week.

The biggest advantage, though it is not guaranteed since you are technically only purchasing a single seat just like in Coach, is that you're very likely to end up with an entire seat pair to yourself. The car itself is a standard Amtrak Superliner coach (the return trip on #14 from SJC to CIC had the leather seats in the downstairs portion only, and they were forbidden to anyone who could climb the stairs) with absolutely no additional amenities or features except paper signs on the end doors saying it was BC.

If you are using either PDX or LAX, access to the Met Lounges there would be a plus to me.

Personally, if it weren't for the low patronage/having a seat pair to one's self, I say it's really not worth the up-charge. Two bottles of water and a $6 food voucher for an added $25 to your rail fare.

The service was extremely lousy; standard grumpy, indifferent dragon-like Coach Attendant and a dirty car.


----------



## TiBike

Chey said:


> But when I got on the Surfliner in Santa Barbara (to LAX) we were treated like gold. It was the most exceptional customer service I've ever experienced on Amtrak. The scenery was exquisite, as it would be [if I'd been in a roomette on the right side] on the Starlight. But the treatment we got from the staff was what made it for me.





Blackwolf said:


> The service was extremely lousy; standard grumpy, indifferent dragon-like Coach Attendant and a dirty car.



I've had it both ways in business class on the Starlight. Service might be excellent or it might be unpleasant. No consistency.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

That's the entire Amtrak system. I can't think of any train that I've gotten consistently great service.

I have had many Amtrak trains where I got incredible service... But none of them are consistently good. If only I could pick a train based on the assigned crews. Ha.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I have always thought TR7s posts to be a Triumph.

FOCLMAO.


----------



## Anderson

Thirdrail7 said:


> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. It's not a matter of moving money or equipment from one spreadsheet column to another. But Richard Anderson has talked about the need to upgrade intercity corridor service and specifically mentioned SF to LA. So Amtrak and Caltrans might find themselves on common ground. Whether anything practical can come of it is another question.
> 
> 
> 
> He did say that Tbike. Let's think. It may become practical...if you...let's say...invest money that you save by not propping up another type of service that is deemed to yield little return. You may even, divert resources from said service to a corridor type service....like making the CS into a 4 car train and taking the extra equipment and putting towards a better frequency in your area.
> 
> It certainly sounds plausible, particularly if you're trying to cover your expenses and comply with PRIIA while still maintaining the network.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> akbrian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've ridden the Coast Starlight down the west coast a few times, and really did enjoy the Pacific Parlour Car. Considering the cost of getting even a roomette is multiple times the cost of flying, a first class lounge is really a part of the experience that makes the cost of the trip worthwhile. It really is a beautiful trip, but who wants to be stuck in their roomette seeing only one side of the scenery all day? Having a nice place to socialize during the day is really part of the experience. This also means that sleeper car passengers will have to walk through the dining service to get to the Sightseer Lounge. I think this will have a negative impact on sleeper service desirability, and therefore viability. I can understand that perhaps the cars are at the end of their service life, but they need to be replaced some other kind of first class lounge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On other trains sleeper pax have to walk through the diner to get to the lounge car. Why does the CS have to be special?
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blue, I would only suggest that there is an opportunity since the equipment exists, the premise exists for a better class of service. Amtrak has CHOSEN not to nurture this and the writing doesn't bode well. Remember when they cut the SSL from the winter Capitol Punishment? Remember when they cut the sleeper lounge from the Auto Pain? Only a loud outcry and a hit to the CSI scores brought those cars back. This smacks of "what next?" and the lack of public support for the LD network makes it a valid question.
Click to expand...

There have been some "interesting" exchanges on an email list I'm on over this. One thing that stands out? The LD network got effectively $0 when $10bn was put out for passenger rail in 2009/10. I think there's an open question as to what was the best use of the money when made available (I'm sure we've all got our opinions) but, especially given the studies done pursuant to the 2008 bill I think it is telling that absolutely no meaningful steps were taken on _any_ of the LD proposals _and_ that there appears to be a case that Amtrak tried to sandbag some of the LD studies.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Anderson said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Richard Anderson has talked about the need to upgrade intercity corridor service and specifically mentioned SF to LA. So Amtrak and Caltrans might find themselves on common ground. ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The LD network got effectively $0 when $10bn was put out for passenger rail in 2009/10.
Click to expand...

I'm not so down on how Amtrak fared with the Stimulus. Could have been better but it was only a lousy $10 or $12 Billion, after all.

Amtrak got a little something for the NEC. A big bridge in Connecticut. Rebuilt 90+ wrecked cars parked at Beech Grove. It got a new building in Seattle so not all the maintenance work there has to be done in the famous 'weather'. Other dribs and drabs.

Some of the money didn't make much of an effect. About $300+ million went to rebuild Harold Interlocking in Queens, touted to save 3 minutes for trains passing from the East River tunnels to Hell Gate bridge en route to Boston; but when the MTA can complete its work on the East Side Access project it will be 2022 or so. Purportedly to save 5 or 10 minutes, the segment around Quantico, VA, got an added 3rd or 4th track with a new bridge. This would shave time off the _Meteor, Star, Palmetto, Carolinian_, and most _Virginia Regionals_; but someone, maybe yourself? posted a recent report that the work was wrapping up, but no changes are expected to the schedules after all.

So Amtrak & the Stimulus was certainly a disappointing encounter, but that's not strong evidence that the powers hate the national system.

If we think back to 2009 or so, Amtrak had a terrible reputation: late, slow, a hopeless money sink. After eight years or so of accumulating modest improvements, it is no longer such a money sink. Notably, the Acelas and Regionals have enjoyed a striking performance on the NEC, which has made Amtrak's totals look better and better.

But back then Amtrak's poor reputation made it politically difficult to direct more money to improving it -- and Amtrak didn't have enuff shovel-ready projects to get funding. (It was no way ready to order cars to replace the aging fleet.)

The political factors led to an unfortunate over-emphasis and over-promising on HSR (which drained $3 Billion or so off to California) and to disbursing the money to state projects, seeming to favor corridor service over the LD system.

Still and all, remember there's much overlap of corridors and LD, so that improvements in one will also help the other.

In upstate NY, work north of Poughkeepsie thru Albany to Schenectady will benefit the many trains on the short NYC-Albany corridor on the one hand and the _Lake Shore Ltd _on the other. And a clutch of medium distance corridors trains -- the _Maple Leaf _to Toronto, the _Adirondack_ to Montreal, the _Ethan Allen_ to Vermont, and _Empire_ service NYC-Buffalo will benefit too.

Likewise, work on the _Piedmont _corridor Raleigh-Greensboro-Charlotte benefits the medium distance _Carolinian _while upgrading the short Greensboro-Charlotte segment of the _Crescent _as well.

The Billion or so spent on the _Lincoln_ corridor St Louis-Chicago, will help the _Texas Eagle_ improve its On Time Performance and shave time (potentially up to 40 minutes or so) off its run.

The upgrades to the _Cascades_ route Seattle-Portland is giving a solid benefit to the _Coast Starlight,_ which is leaving 25 minutes later from Seattle but making the same arrival in Portland and points south. The LD train's On Time Performance will improve as well. Riders will enjoy the convenience of two added frequencies by the _Cascades_. In addition, the stops on the _Starlight/Cascades_ and _Eagle/Lincoln_ service corridors have new stations, or major restoration upgrades like King St in Seattle.

Even the work to upgrade the _Wolverines _service will help the LD lines out of Chicago. No LD train runs Detroit-Chicago, but better, faster _Wolverines_ will feed more passengers to the other trains at Union Station.

Actually, besides the Michigan trains, it would be hard to find a place to spend money on corridors that would not directly impact LD service.

What was wrong with the Stimulus FY 2010 funding wasn't that the LD system was treated like the stepchild. The problem was not enuff money to go around.


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> There have been some "interesting" exchanges on an email list I'm on over this. One thing that stands out? The LD network got effectively $0 when $10bn was put out for passenger rail in 2009/10. I think there's an open question as to what was the best use of the money when made available (I'm sure we've all got our opinions) but, especially given the studies done pursuant to the 2008 bill I think it is telling that absolutely no meaningful steps were taken on _any_ of the LD proposals _and_ that there appears to be a case that Amtrak tried to sandbag some of the LD studies.


This isn't actually a fair statement; so-called long-distance trains benefited from many of the $10 billion in projects. The LSL benefitted substantially from the Schenectady-NYP upgrades, for the most obvious example. When the new Tacoma route reopens, the Coast Starlight will benefit. The Empire Builder is just as much a beneficiary of the mudslide fixes north of Seattle as the anemic Seattle-Vancouver service is. If Charlotte hadn't failed to reach agreement with ADM, the new Charlotte station would have benefitted the Crescent probably more than it will benefit the Carolinian. The bizarre situation where the Texas Eagle is prohibited from benefitting from the St. Louis-Chicago improvements because UP are jerks is an aberration, which can hopefully be fixed at some point.

The most accurate thing to say is that all $10 billion was allocated to capital, with *nothing* to operations. This is standard for politicians particularly in DC. So being able to show operating breakeven is very wise.

Obviously, most of the long distance trains are at operating breakeven or better (I'd estimate 9 out of 15).

All the capital improvements were in places which benefit multiple trains. Which also makes sense: economies of scale.

However, Amtrak does seem to have some people who are doing some really **** garbage with the LD studies. While I frankly understand sandbagging the ones which clearly showed increased operating losses and increased operating losses per passenger, there is no excuse for not implementing the recommendations in the LSL and CL PIPs, which would actually improve financial performance.

Footnote:

My current estimates, based on the best available information from Amtrak (some of which is sadly years out of date, but I used the most up to date where available) is that -- not including equipment maintenance which is allocated by arbitrary and capricious methods, but including host railroad access charges which amount to a capital charge for track -- the Auto Train, Palmetto, Star, Meteor, LSL, EB, Crescent, Coast Starlight, and CONO cover their costs. (In that order from most to least profitable.) It's notable that most of these (Star, Meteor, Crescent, CS) were using ultra-expensive-to-maintain Heritage cars during the last year I have data for (2017); while equipment maintenance is not allocated by Amtrak in any reasonable fashion, eliminating this cost center makes my estimates here more "legit" than before.

The trains which appear to actually run losses before "allocation" are (from smallest loss to largest loss) are the Cardinal (would be profitable if daily), SWC, CL, TE, CZ, and trailing far behind everything else, the Sunset Limited. The most which could be saved by cancelling these (you can't eliminate equipment maintenance...) is 37.1 million, which is bupkes; one third of that is the Sunset Limited.

The overhead which is arbitrarily allocated to the so-called long-distance trains is about $556.2 million, of which they cover a net 74.8 million from operating profits less operating losses. The total overhead is about a billion dollars. The state-supported trains have to cover the portion arbitrarily and capriciously allocated to them -- after lots of arguments, they got a relatively low percentage of it allocated to them. So it's about half a billion allocated to the so-called long-distance trains and about half a billion allocated to the Acela/Northeast Regional. Given this, you can see why Anderson predicted an operating profit in 2018; the Acela/Regional above-the-rails profit only has to be about 1 billion dollars, which it was close to before they stopped reporting any useful information this October.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> There have been some "interesting" exchanges on an email list I'm on over this. One thing that stands out? The LD network got effectively $0 when $10bn was put out for passenger rail in 2009/10. I think there's an open question as to what was the best use of the money when made available (I'm sure we've all got our opinions) but, especially given the studies done pursuant to the 2008 bill I think it is telling that absolutely no meaningful steps were taken on _any_ of the LD proposals _and_ that there appears to be a case that Amtrak tried to sandbag some of the LD studies.
> 
> 
> 
> This isn't actually a fair statement; so-called long-distance trains benefited from many of the $10 billion in projects. The LSL benefitted substantially from the Schenectady-NYP upgrades, for the most obvious example. When the new Tacoma route reopens, the Coast Starlight will benefit. The Empire Builder is just as much a beneficiary of the mudslide fixes north of Seattle as the anemic Seattle-Vancouver service is. If Charlotte hadn't failed to reach agreement with ADM, the new Charlotte station would have benefitted the Crescent probably more than it will benefit the Carolinian. The bizarre situation where the Texas Eagle is prohibited from benefitting from the St. Louis-Chicago improvements because UP are jerks is an aberration, which can hopefully be fixed at some point.
> 
> The most accurate thing to say is that all $10 billion was allocated to capital, with *nothing* to operations. This is standard for politicians particularly in DC. So being able to show operating breakeven is very wise.
> 
> Obviously, most of the long distance trains are at operating breakeven or better (I'd estimate 9 out of 15).
> 
> All the capital improvements were in places which benefit multiple trains. Which also makes sense: economies of scale.
> 
> However, Amtrak does seem to have some people who are doing some really **** garbage with the LD studies. While I frankly understand sandbagging the ones which clearly showed increased operating losses and increased operating losses per passenger, there is no excuse for not implementing the recommendations in the LSL and CL PIPs, which would actually improve financial performance.
> 
> Footnote:
> 
> My current estimates, based on the best available information from Amtrak (some of which is sadly years out of date, but I used the most up to date where available) is that -- not including equipment maintenance which is allocated by arbitrary and capricious methods, but including host railroad access charges which amount to a capital charge for track -- the Auto Train, Palmetto, Star, Meteor, LSL, EB, Crescent, Coast Starlight, and CONO cover their costs. (In that order from most to least profitable.) It's notable that most of these (Star, Meteor, Crescent, CS) were using ultra-expensive-to-maintain Heritage cars during the last year I have data for (2017); while equipment maintenance is not allocated by Amtrak in any reasonable fashion, eliminating this cost center makes my estimates here more "legit" than before.
> 
> The trains which appear to actually run losses before "allocation" are (from smallest loss to largest loss) are the Cardinal (would be profitable if daily), SWC, CL, TE, CZ, and trailing far behind everything else, the Sunset Limited. The most which could be saved by cancelling these (you can't eliminate equipment maintenance...) is 37.1 million, which is bupkes; one third of that is the Sunset Limited.
> 
> The overhead which is arbitrarily allocated to the so-called long-distance trains is about $556.2 million, of which they cover a net 74.8 million from operating profits less operating losses. The total overhead is about a billion dollars. The state-supported trains have to cover the portion arbitrarily and capriciously allocated to them -- after lots of arguments, they got a relatively low percentage of it allocated to them. So it's about half a billion allocated to the so-called long-distance trains and about half a billion allocated to the Acela/Northeast Regional. Given this, you can see why Anderson predicted an operating profit in 2018; the Acela/Regional above-the-rails profit only has to be about 1 billion dollars, which it was close to before they stopped reporting any useful information this October.
Click to expand...

Holy crap. You've got a lot of data.


----------



## cpotisch

If you try to book a Starlight ticket, it now shows a service alert, and guess what the alert says:

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Amtrak will retire the renowned Pacific Parlour Car from the Coast Starlight. The last day of service will be February 2 on Train 14 and February 4 on Train 11. Retiring the Parlour Car is part of Amtrak's ongoing work to modernize its fleet of equipment.

Due to high demand, an additional Parlour Car trip has been added on Wednesday, January 31 leaving Los Angeles and Friday, February 2 leaving Seattle.

The Parlour Car will continue to operate on Thursdays and Fridays departing Los Angeles and Saturdays and Sundays departing Seattle through February 4.

The Coast Starlight will continue to provide daily service from Seattle to Los Angeles. Amtrak is reviewing what amenities offered in the Parlour Car will be available in the future. Customers can continue to enjoy the trip and spectacular views from other areas of the train, including the Dining and Sightseer Lounge cars.

We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience. For reservation and train status information check Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps, speak with station personnel or call 800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak.

–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

So that seems pretty darn official.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Key words are "..Amtrak is reviewing what amenities offered in the Parlour Car will be available in the future.Customers can continue to enjoy the trip and the spectacular views from other areas of the train, including the Dining and Sightseer Lounge cars.."

Hopefully the wish that remodeled CCCs or Lounge Cars will eventually appear comes true, but Funding, as always, is the 18 Ton Gorilla in the room.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

_"Amtrak is reviewing what amenities offered in the Parlour Car will be available in the future."_

I fear this means Amtrak has absolutely no idea and there will be years of studies to follow.


----------



## Sactobob

"As has been mentioned, there is the possibility for Amtrak to turn an SSL into a sort of 'PPC II'. Put in the Hi-Level's sofas/booths, movie theater, glass, dining. But given Amtrak's recent priorities, I don't see that is very likely."

The Amtrak FY 17-21 Five Year Service Lines Plan states as follows:

"Pacific Parlour Car Replacement FY 20-21

Modify five Cross-Country Café cars to replace 60-year old Pacific Parlour Cars on the Coast Starlight. Alternative of overhaul existing cars will be evaluated."

Well, the "evaluation" has apparently been completed, and we now know the result of the evaluation. There is no indication that the primary alternative of _​modifying _​five Cross-Country Cafes is not still in the five year plan.


----------



## Palmetto

The last thing I would want to do while traveling by train is to watch a movie. On an airplane, yes. On the train, no. It's like going to the lounge to enjoy the scenery, and wind up reading a book. What's the point?


----------



## VT Hokie

Sactobob said:


> Well, the "evaluation" has apparently been completed, and we now know the result of the evaluation. There is no indication that the primary alternative of _​modifying _​five Cross-Country Cafes is not still in the five year plan.


Like how the space shuttle was retired with the plan of maybe someday replacing it with something? I guess sending sleeper passengers into the overcrowded Sightseer Lounge is sort of akin to hitching rides on the Russian Soyuz!


----------



## akbrian

Palmetto said:


> The last thing I would want to do while traveling by train is to watch a movie. On an airplane, yes. On the train, no. It's like going to the lounge to enjoy the scenery, and wind up reading a book. What's the point?


I agree here. Get rid of the theater seating and make it just more social setting with comfortable chairs and tables would be fine. Another area to gather, talk, play cards, etc.


----------



## bretton88

There is also no indication that something, like frame issues occuring, didn't force Amtrak's hand on this. It seems really abrupt, especially since Amtrak had indicated it had a replacement plan for these cars, which is why I think there was something more drastic that forced Amtrak to retire the cars earlier than planned. In the generic email responses that Anderson has given, he has indicated that a bi-level replacement fleet has become high priority at Amtrak HQ. What you definitely won't see is Amtrak publicly admitting if the cars had developed an unsafe defect.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

I'm hoping the crew of 11(3) next month will let me take pictures of the inside of the PPC at the end of its run at LAX. It's the second to last run, so they might be nice. What do you all think?


----------



## TinCan782

ParanoidAndroid said:


> I'm hoping the crew of 11(3) next month will let me take pictures of the inside of the PPC at the end of its run at LAX. It's the second to last run, so they might be nice. What do you all think?


If they don't want to be in the photos, take them when they are not there!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Usually when I'm on an Amtrak train entering LAUS the staff are in a hurry to get all passengers off the train and get everything ready for the yard. You'll be swimming against the stream and if they approve your request someone will have to stop whatever they're doing and keep an eye on things while you're aboard. I'm not saying don't ask but I would suggest preparing yourself to be told no.


----------



## MikeM

Sactobob said:


> "As has been mentioned, there is the possibility for Amtrak to turn an SSL into a sort of 'PPC II'. Put in the Hi-Level's sofas/booths, movie theater, glass, dining. But given Amtrak's recent priorities, I don't see that is very likely."
> 
> The Amtrak FY 17-21 Five Year Service Lines Plan states as follows:
> 
> "Pacific Parlour Car Replacement FY 20-21
> 
> Modify five Cross-Country Café cars to replace 60-year old Pacific Parlour Cars on the Coast Starlight. Alternative of overhaul existing cars will be evaluated."
> 
> Well, the "evaluation" has apparently been completed, and we now know the result of the evaluation. There is no indication that the primary alternative of _​modifying _​five Cross-Country Cafes is not still in the five year plan.


Does anyone at Amtrak actually remember the five year service plan any longer? It seems with the mess that the viewliner order turned into, not much else is happening with new equipment procurement. Meanwhile, the fleet isn't getting any younger...


----------



## A Voice

MikeM said:


> Sactobob said:
> 
> 
> 
> "As has been mentioned, there is the possibility for Amtrak to turn an SSL into a sort of 'PPC II'. Put in the Hi-Level's sofas/booths, movie theater, glass, dining. But given Amtrak's recent priorities, I don't see that is very likely."
> 
> The Amtrak FY 17-21 Five Year Service Lines Plan states as follows:
> 
> "Pacific Parlour Car Replacement FY 20-21
> 
> Modify five Cross-Country Café cars to replace 60-year old Pacific Parlour Cars on the Coast Starlight. Alternative of overhaul existing cars will be evaluated."
> 
> Well, the "evaluation" has apparently been completed, and we now know the result of the evaluation. There is no indication that the primary alternative of _​modifying _​five Cross-Country Cafes is not still in the five year plan.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone at Amtrak actually remember the five year service plan any longer? It seems with the mess that the viewliner order turned into, not much else is happening with new equipment procurement. Meanwhile, the fleet isn't getting any younger...
Click to expand...

Did the plan actually call for anything else the past few years anyway, though? Next up was to be the Amfleet II lounges and coaches, but from fuzzy memory I'm wanting to say that was slated for around FY2019 or so.

The Viewliner II order hasn't gone to plan, but is hardly the first Amtrak order for rolling stock to be delivered late.


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

I take Amtrak--if time allows--and if it meets my travel endpoint because 1) do not like flying and 2) I have a perhaps irrational love of simply traveling by train. I was young when the last crack trains of so many independent railroads ran. Though I never did ride an overnight luxe streamliner led by one of those beautiful F-units, I saw some and could just imagine what it would be like. And while I still can (and there are still mid- and long-distance trains actually running), I prefer to vicariously relive those long lost days, albeit at a much reduced actual experience--you have all seen pictures of those dining cars, with everyone dressed to the t's. The current rather pedestrian train experience is simply what we have in this day and age and I'm thankful for that. So I am planning a trip on the Coast Starlight for the spring to attend a wedding in the Santa Barbara area. I was looking forward to the parlour car, but then again, it wasn't along for the ride on _ALL _Coast Starlight runs, correct? If so, then it would have been be a crap shoot at best. These days now that I'm older and have enough funds to do so, I always go first class--I like sleeping in a bed. So the fact that I won't have a parlour car to visit doesn't make or break the decision to go by train. I find that I simply like to spend time in the roomette (or once in a while even a bedroom), looking out the window, and enjoying the ride. Because I am a prolific user of Amtrak Guest Rewards, I sometimes get a free ride, roomette and all. Now, if Amtrak were to do away with *that *program, then even for me, that would be "all she wrote".


----------



## calwatch

Well AGR has been downgraded substantially for the long distance trips. I generally use them on corridor leisure trips and have stopped earning them entirely, content to burn off my stash obtained from signing up for the Bank of America credit card and what was transferred via Chase prior to Amtrak changing credit card partners. Overall Amtrak is becoming more and more utilitarian and less of a special experience - consistent with the CEO's background turning Delta into an operationally superb but unglamorous airline. (If he can get Amtrak to have as few cancellations and mechanical issues as Delta I will be happy.)


----------



## rtabern

The thing that gets me that no one else has mentioned yet on this thread --- and I guess it really shouldn't be surprising --- is that Amtrak is NOT going to return any of the savings of not having the Parlour Cars on anymore back to the customer/traveler!

For example, #14 from PDX to SEA will have the Parlour Car on for the last time on Saturday, February 3rd. The following week, Saturday, February 10th, there will be no Parlour Car on per the press releases -- but the sleeping car fares are at the exact SAME bucket level.

You think since such a huge amenity of having a private first class lounge not be available anymore --- SOME of that savings should be passed along the consumer. I wouldn't expect the entire cost to be returned to the traveler -- but jeesh -- maybe 10% or 20% of whatever the cost was to have the staffed Parlour Car on.

Again -- doesn't surprise me though. Amtrak did the same thing (atleast for awhile) when the Hoosier State transitioned from Iowa Pacific back to Amtrak. Fares were the same for Business Class under Iowa Pacific that they were for Amtrak. Not sure if this is still the case --- but it certainly was during the transition period in February & March 2017. You are not getting a dome seat and full meal with your business ticket -- you're just getting a juice bottle and regular business class seating in an Amfleet. Prices should have been reduced -- even a few bucks -- because that was a major downgrade in service.


----------



## PVD

Hoosier State was a deal with the State for a subsidized train. Fare terms were not strictly up to Amtrak. The prior operator was losing money at the agreed on fares and terms, why would someone agree to lower them?


----------



## Ryan

You can’t possibly be serious.

Amtrak doesn’t have the money to give back. Every dollar they take in is needed to support current operations.

They should charge as much as the market will bear for tickets, which is what they’re doing.

They’re a business, not a charity, and the tens of people that care about this aren’t going to make a bit of different to the bottom line.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Then why did they lower the cost of sleepers on the Star?

Was the Parlour car an amenity in order to sell the sleeper on the Starlight? Or was the Starlight sleepers at a higher bucket to cover the cost of the parlour car?

These are questions we don't have the answer to so we can't really make make such a judgment.


----------



## chakk

I thought fares were lowered on the SS because Amtrak removed the dining car and its free meals for sleeping car passengers?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Ryan

Yes, fares were lowered on the Star, since the meals have menu prices right next to them. There were also allocations of Sleeping Passenger revenue allocated to the F&B account to account for those meals.

Amtrak will refund everyone exactly what they would have paid to sit in the PPC. $0.


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## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> They should charge as much as the market will bear for tickets, which is what they’re doing.


Well, this rider values the PPC substantially over $0. I’d say it was closer to $100+ per trip to me. Amtrak is free to leave the prices as-is or even raise them, but unlike the bored baby boomer bunch who will apparently ride almost anything and will happily pay almost any price I have to see value in the transaction before I pony up.



Ryan said:


> Amtrak will refund everyone exactly what they would have paid to sit in the PPC. $0.


Nobody is expecting a refund. That's just straw man nonsense.



Ryan said:


> They’re a business, not a charity, and the tens of people that care about this aren’t going to make a bit of different to the bottom line.


And yet we made enough of a difference to keep these cars going for decades. That’s not my opinion, that’s what I was told by an Amtrak customer service manager.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

In Amtrak's defense, in my experience purchasing tickets, the Coast Starlight Roomette costs have always been much less than equal distance trips on California Zephyr and Empire Builder and much, much less than Via Rail's CANADIAN.


----------



## jis

One relevant question to ask of those that feel slighted for not getting a lower priced ticket is - did the fares go up specifically when the PPC was added to the CS or the Dome BC was added to the Hoosier State. If they did then there may be an argument for a fare reduction. If not then there is no cogent argument at all.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Tennessee Traveler said:


> In Amtrak's defense, in my experience purchasing tickets, the Coast Starlight Roomette costs have always been much less than equal distance trips on California Zephyr and Empire Builder and much, much less than Via Rail's CANADIAN.


Very true. The Coast Starlight has long been a relative bargain compared to other routes, although I haven't seen as many discounts lately as I did in the past. The CS also benefits from having a route that is continuously interesting (to me anyway) while I find that trains like the Zephyr and Canadian tend to have portions of extreme natural beauty combined with lengthy areas of far less interesting scenery.



jis said:


> One relevant question to ask of those that feel slighted for not getting a lower priced ticket is - did the fares go up specifically when the PPC was added to the CS or the Dome BC was added to the Hoosier State. If they did then there may be an argument for a fare reduction. If not then there is no cogent argument at all.


When I discovered how much I enjoyed the PPC my perceived value of the Coast Starlight increased, as did my willingness to spend time and money to experience it. Now that the PPC is being removed my interest in the CS is falling. Amtrak can attempt to counter this loss of enthusiasm with cheaper fares. Or they might choose to remove more amenities and raise fares further in an effort to attract more proudly indifferent and fiercely loyal Baby Boomers. Or perhaps they'll focus their energy on trying to find a way to fund a new batch of extremely slow but highly modern rolling stock. Finding out what happens next is half the fun, and under the current regime virtually any service or amenity could be as little as two weeks away from the next improvement.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Devil's Advocate said:


> When I discovered how much I enjoyed the PPC my perceived value of the Coast Starlight increased, as did my willingness to spend time and money to experience it. Now that the PPC is being removed my interest in the CS is falling. Amtrak can attempt to counter this loss of enthusiasm with cheaper fares. Or they might choose to remove more amenities and raise fares further in an effort to attract more proudly indifferent and fiercely loyal Baby Boomers. Or perhaps they'll focus their energy on trying to find a way to fund a new batch of extremely slow but highly modern rolling stock. Finding out what happens next is half the fun, and under the current regime virtually any service or amenity could be as little as two weeks away from the next improvement.



Speaking of removing more amenities, is this still available?

"At-seat service" on CS


----------



## Blackwolf

Nope.


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## Maverickstation

Putting The Canadian aside, we took a trip this past August on The Ocean, and having the Park Car observation as a sleeping car perk is what made the trip. We actually had 2 domes on that trip, and wine tastings as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Anderson

jis said:


> One relevant question to ask of those that feel slighted for not getting a lower priced ticket is - did the fares go up specifically when the PPC was added to the CS or the Dome BC was added to the Hoosier State. If they did then there may be an argument for a fare reduction. If not then there is no cogent argument at all.


I cannot speak directly to the addition of the PPC (I think I was like six or eight at the time) but in the case of the HS, I'm fairly certain that the answer is "yes", if only because:

(1) A Business Class option was added which did not exist previously* (so there was arguably a dedicated accommodation charge); and

(2) IIRC, PPR spiked by a fairly large amount in conjunction with that (I know it was pretty big...I want to say it was like 30-40% but I'd need to look at some of the relevant reports; it might have been a 40% bump in revenue alongside a bump in ridership).

Whether that bump fully offset the addition of meal service, I cannot say, but from what I have heard the per-passenger loss did decrease under Iowa Pacific.

Now, back to the addition of the PPC: Even if there wasn't an immediate hike, I think there is a question as to whether or not a premium did become attached to the train due to having the PPC...and that's a question I can't "cleanly" answer, but comparing PPR on the CS to some of the other trains it appears that the train did command a premium for some reason or another.

*Ok, Amtrak shoved something together for a few weeks in the run-up to IP taking over; TBH I'm inclined to ignore this since I think any BC pricing at that time would have been arranged in a big hurry as a purely reactionary move.


----------



## rtabern

Ryan said:


> You cant possibly be serious.
> 
> Amtrak doesnt have the money to give back. Every dollar they take in is needed to support current operations.
> 
> They should charge as much as the market will bear for tickets, which is what theyre doing.
> 
> Theyre a business, not a charity, and the tens of people that care about this arent going to make a bit of different to the bottom line.


About the only things I agree with you on is Amtrak is not a charity and they can use every dollar taken in. Lol... the same generic statement is true for any business... or heck any person or family... for that matter. Right?
My point was Amtrak cant keep making cuts and expecting people to pay the same or even more for worse service and stay in business.

Sure maybe people will still ride with worse meals on eastern overnight trains... no Parlour Cars... no newspapers... no coffee after 11am... less choices of juices... no amenity kits... no champagne... no wine and cheese tastings... no flowers in the dining car... no china in the dining car... no souveniers sold on board anymore... no movies in the lounge cars... cuts to Trails and Rails... harder to earn and redeem Guest Rewards... on and on.

Just like in life... sometimes too much small stuff can build up and lead to big stuff.

Eventually enough small cuts will happen... if they havent already... that taking the train will lose its MAGIC ... as Amtrak said in the 80s... and people with limited vacation time will begin to question... if Im going Chicago to LA or SF... is it worth it to spend three vacation days and take train or take four hours and just fly.

Personally we have reached our breaking point with all the small cuts and BS. We rode for the PPCs and the Dome. And maybe if the train was actually the best and quickest way to get somewhere... which is really a rare exception... maybe the NEC and to get to a remote spot like La Plata MO with no good roads.

The point being... You cant charge the same or more for worse service. And cutting a first class lounge is the loss of a MAJOR perk for sleeper customers on 11 and 14.

But hey if you want to pay more for no first class lounge... go right ahead. Its America and its your free will to do whatever you want with your money.

I am pretty sure our trip Feb 3 will mark the PPCs last run in additio to probably the last time we ride the Coast Starlight. If I want to get from Seattle to LA I will fly and get there in two hours vs two days. If I want scenery Ill take Highway 1.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I’ve been on 11/14 twice now & will be again in March. The PPC was not a MAJOR perk for me. And based on my limited experience, it did not seem to be a MAJOR perk for others.

I suspect the # of people who book the CS sleepers just because of the PPC is small compared to the total # of sleeper pax.

I ride LD trains to see the country, not for tablecloths & flowers in the diner, wine & cheese, etc. I ride sleepers for the beds since I’m a side sleeper which makes it hard to sleep in coach more than one night.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## tricia

rtabern said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You cant possibly be serious.
> 
> Amtrak doesnt have the money to give back. Every dollar they take in is needed to support current operations.
> 
> They should charge as much as the market will bear for tickets, which is what theyre doing.
> 
> Theyre a business, not a charity, and the tens of people that care about this arent going to make a bit of different to the bottom line.
> 
> 
> 
> About the only things I agree with you on is Amtrak is not a charity and they can use every dollar taken in. Lol... the same generic statement is true for any business... or heck any person or family... for that matter. Right?
> My point was Amtrak cant keep making cuts and expecting people to pay the same or even more for worse service and stay in business.
> 
> Sure maybe people will still ride with worse meals on eastern overnight trains... no Parlour Cars... no newspapers... no coffee after 11am... less choices of juices... no amenity kits... no champagne... no wine and cheese tastings... no flowers in the dining car... no china in the dining car... no souveniers sold on board anymore... no movies in the lounge cars... cuts to Trails and Rails... harder to earn and redeem Guest Rewards... on and on.
> 
> Just like in life... sometimes too much small stuff can build up and lead to big stuff.
> 
> Eventually enough small cuts will happen... if they havent already... that taking the train will lose its MAGIC ... as Amtrak said in the 80s... and people with limited vacation time will begin to question... if Im going Chicago to LA or SF... is it worth it to spend three vacation days and take train or take four hours and just fly.
Click to expand...

Loss of amenities makes a toxic combination with Amtrak's inconsistent service. Staff who try to make customers' trips pleasant and comfortable can make almost any trip memorably enjoyable, whatever the level of amenity. On the other hand, surly employees who apparently view customers as an inconvenience can make lack of amenities really rankle.

Like many on this forum, I've experienced a wide range of customer service on Amtrak, from truly excellent to downright nasty. The loss of amenities in recent years makes it more difficult for good staff to do their jobs well, and leaves less and less for customers to enjoy when dealing with bad staff.


----------



## Thirdrail7

tricia said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> About the only things I agree with you on is Amtrak is not a charity and they can use every dollar taken in. Lol... the same generic statement is true for any business... or heck any person or family... for that matter. Right?
> My point was Amtrak cant keep making cuts and expecting people to pay the same or even more for worse service and stay in business.
> 
> Sure maybe people will still ride with worse meals on eastern overnight trains... no Parlour Cars... no newspapers... no coffee after 11am... less choices of juices... no amenity kits... no champagne... no wine and cheese tastings... no flowers in the dining car... no china in the dining car... no souveniers sold on board anymore... no movies in the lounge cars... cuts to Trails and Rails... harder to earn and redeem Guest Rewards... on and on.
> 
> Just like in life... sometimes too much small stuff can build up and lead to big stuff.
> 
> Eventually enough small cuts will happen... if they havent already... that taking the train will lose its MAGIC ... as Amtrak said in the 80s... and people with limited vacation time will begin to question... if Im going Chicago to LA or SF... is it worth it to spend three vacation days and take train or take four hours and just fly.
> 
> 
> 
> Loss of amenities makes a toxic combination with Amtrak's inconsistent service. Staff who try to make customers' trips pleasant and comfortable can make almost any trip memorably enjoyable, whatever the level of amenity. On the other hand, surly employees who apparently view customers as an inconvenience can make lack of amenities really rankle.
> 
> Like many on this forum, I've experienced a wide range of customer service on Amtrak, from truly excellent to downright nasty. The loss of amenities in recent years makes it more difficult for good staff to do their jobs well, and leaves less and less for customers to enjoy when dealing with bad staff.
Click to expand...


We're in agreement and it is funny Tricia because I brought you up earlier in the thread:



Thirdrail7 said:


> There's a lot to tackle in this thread so we'll take it in no particular order.
> 
> R
> 
> That being said, I think we are seeing the previous discussed concepts from the Greenville, SC (GRV) to be Unstaffed Effective June 15, 2017. Notably:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *One of the easiest targets is labor. How much are you getting for the labor that you are providing? While I agree that some of these cuts will definitely impact ridership, the people making these decisions are looking at it from a cost center point of view. Period. It is easy for them since they are not actually passengers. Additionally, you'll find that most rail providers aren't top heavy with actual railroaders. They are top heavy with employees with financial backgrounds, focused on the bottom line. That doesn't necessarily make them bad railroaders but it does mean they may not understand "the product." During the last years of the Boardman tenure, you saw an influx of airline employees moving into key positions. They still think like airline employees and it shows. They were also fixated on the short to medium distance passengers and a lot of the policies show it. However, they were given a mandate:" this is the money you have...work with it and see how we can survive. " As such, they may not even be interested in what the product "was" or "could be" and may go with "this is all it is going to be or we'll run out of money."*
> 
> The vision lurches from year to year based upon the funds granted. That is no way to run a railroad.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the long distance traveler may be the victim when it comes time to the budget. Rtabern's letter spells it out in spades. What is the cost? What "provable" revenue does it generate? I don't know why these cars need so much maintenance but assuming it isn't a ploy, would we rather spend money on these cars or the engines that pull them?
> 
> Personally, I think it is a mistake to whittle away at the amenities. This was done before and it didn't work out. Trains don't have an advantage of speed like a plane nor do they have the cost structure of a bus. So, what exactly is Amtrak bringing to the table? It should be something memorable to justify the costs. It should be something to bring you back. It should be something to make you say "do you remember that time?" Otherwise, what is the point? If you wanted to ride a bus on steel wheels, then you might as well ride an actual bus.
> 
> Maybe Tricia is right! As Amtrak continues to cut station personnel, maybe they should mothball the new baggage cars as well. How much revenue are they generating?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I will continue the rest of my rant in the CEO thread.
Click to expand...

The only thing I would ask is who besides Rtabern has written? Tricia, they are in the process of eliminating yet another staffed station.(as soon as it is public, we'll put it up.) That's another kick to the traveler yet they keep doing these things because for some reason, ridership keeps going up. In their minds, corridor traffic (short and intermediate) is the market to chase and what do they care about PPCs, luggage, hell even food! LD riders are the minority! They must be! We keep cutting and they aren't bleeding!

If you are truly interested, kick them in the CSI scores. Write in! Tell them what you need and equally important, tell them what you WANT. Tell them what you EXPECT.

Otherwise, the next cuts will come....it is just a matter of time.


----------



## neroden

They bled money on the Auto Train when they cut services thoughtlessly. In a very blatant fashion. If they can't read the financials from that... well, is it actually possible to get through heads that thick?


----------



## OBS

It is,sadly, becoming a race to the bottom....


----------



## Bob Dylan

OBS said:


> It is,sadly, becoming a race to the bottom....


Agreed! Perhaps the Beancounters will kill all the Amenities aboard Trains and then rebrand Amtrak as Ryan Rail.


----------



## sechs

cpotisch said:


> If you try to book a Starlight ticket, it now shows a service alert, and guess what the alert says:
> 
> –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
> 
> Amtrak will retire the renowned Pacific Parlour Car from the Coast Starlight. The last day of service will be February 2 on Train 14 and February 4 on Train 11. Retiring the Parlour Car is part of Amtrak's ongoing work to modernize its fleet of equipment.
> 
> Due to high demand, an additional Parlour Car trip has been added on Wednesday, January 31 leaving Los Angeles and Friday, February 2 leaving Seattle.
> 
> The Parlour Car will continue to operate on Thursdays and Fridays departing Los Angeles and Saturdays and Sundays departing Seattle through February 4.
> 
> The Coast Starlight will continue to provide daily service from Seattle to Los Angeles. Amtrak is reviewing what amenities offered in the Parlour Car will be available in the future. Customers can continue to enjoy the trip and spectacular views from other areas of the train, including the Dining and Sightseer Lounge cars.
> 
> We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience. For reservation and train status information check Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps, speak with station personnel or call 800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak.
> 
> –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
> 
> So that seems pretty darn official.


I bet if they keep adding dates with the PPC, demand will remain high


----------



## tricia

Thirdrail7 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> About the only things I agree with you on is Amtrak is not a charity and they can use every dollar taken in. Lol... the same generic statement is true for any business... or heck any person or family... for that matter. Right?
> My point was Amtrak cant keep making cuts and expecting people to pay the same or even more for worse service and stay in business.
> 
> Sure maybe people will still ride with worse meals on eastern overnight trains... no Parlour Cars... no newspapers... no coffee after 11am... less choices of juices... no amenity kits... no champagne... no wine and cheese tastings... no flowers in the dining car... no china in the dining car... no souveniers sold on board anymore... no movies in the lounge cars... cuts to Trails and Rails... harder to earn and redeem Guest Rewards... on and on.
> 
> Just like in life... sometimes too much small stuff can build up and lead to big stuff.
> 
> Eventually enough small cuts will happen... if they havent already... that taking the train will lose its MAGIC ... as Amtrak said in the 80s... and people with limited vacation time will begin to question... if Im going Chicago to LA or SF... is it worth it to spend three vacation days and take train or take four hours and just fly.
> 
> 
> 
> Loss of amenities makes a toxic combination with Amtrak's inconsistent service. Staff who try to make customers' trips pleasant and comfortable can make almost any trip memorably enjoyable, whatever the level of amenity. On the other hand, surly employees who apparently view customers as an inconvenience can make lack of amenities really rankle.
> 
> Like many on this forum, I've experienced a wide range of customer service on Amtrak, from truly excellent to downright nasty. The loss of amenities in recent years makes it more difficult for good staff to do their jobs well, and leaves less and less for customers to enjoy when dealing with bad staff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We're in agreement and it is funny Tricia because I brought you up earlier in the thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot to tackle in this thread so we'll take it in no particular order.
> 
> R
> 
> That being said, I think we are seeing the previous discussed concepts from the Greenville, SC (GRV) to be Unstaffed Effective June 15, 2017. Notably:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *One of the easiest targets is labor. How much are you getting for the labor that you are providing? While I agree that some of these cuts will definitely impact ridership, the people making these decisions are looking at it from a cost center point of view. Period. It is easy for them since they are not actually passengers. Additionally, you'll find that most rail providers aren't top heavy with actual railroaders. They are top heavy with employees with financial backgrounds, focused on the bottom line. That doesn't necessarily make them bad railroaders but it does mean they may not understand "the product." During the last years of the Boardman tenure, you saw an influx of airline employees moving into key positions. They still think like airline employees and it shows. They were also fixated on the short to medium distance passengers and a lot of the policies show it. However, they were given a mandate:" this is the money you have...work with it and see how we can survive. " As such, they may not even be interested in what the product "was" or "could be" and may go with "this is all it is going to be or we'll run out of money."*
> 
> The vision lurches from year to year based upon the funds granted. That is no way to run a railroad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately, the long distance traveler may be the victim when it comes time to the budget. Rtabern's letter spells it out in spades. What is the cost? What "provable" revenue does it generate? I don't know why these cars need so much maintenance but assuming it isn't a ploy, would we rather spend money on these cars or the engines that pull them?
> 
> Personally, I think it is a mistake to whittle away at the amenities. This was done before and it didn't work out. Trains don't have an advantage of speed like a plane nor do they have the cost structure of a bus. So, what exactly is Amtrak bringing to the table? It should be something memorable to justify the costs. It should be something to bring you back. It should be something to make you say "do you remember that time?" Otherwise, what is the point? If you wanted to ride a bus on steel wheels, then you might as well ride an actual bus.
> 
> Maybe Tricia is right! As Amtrak continues to cut station personnel, maybe they should mothball the new baggage cars as well. How much revenue are they generating?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I will continue the rest of my rant in the CEO thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only thing I would ask is who besides Rtabern has written? Tricia, they are in the process of eliminating yet another staffed station.(as soon as it is public, we'll put it up.) That's another kick to the traveler yet they keep doing these things because for some reason, ridership keeps going up. In their minds, corridor traffic (short and intermediate) is the market to chase and what do they care about PPCs, luggage, hell even food! LD riders are the minority! They must be! We keep cutting and they aren't bleeding!
> 
> If you are truly interested, kick them in the CSI scores. Write in! Tell them what you need and equally important, tell them what you WANT. Tell them what you EXPECT.
> 
> Otherwise, the next cuts will come....it is just a matter of time.
Click to expand...

Well, unlike the amenities, ensuring that employees actually do the jobs they're paid for, in a customer-friendly manner, shouldn't cost anything. They're already paying the salaries. I don't have enough experience riding LD to feel confident guessing a percentage, but I've encountered a good many Amtrak staff who go above and beyond earning their pay. And a distressing number who don't come near--way beyond a few bad apples.

Instead of cutting amenities further, perhaps Amtrak should look into supervisory dead wood. Clearly there are supervisors who are failing to ensure consistent service. Whether that's because they're inept, or because they're not given the resources to do their jobs properly, I don't know.


----------



## Thirdrail7

tricia said:


> Well, unlike the amenities, ensuring that employees actually do the jobs they're paid for, in a customer-friendly manner, shouldn't cost anything. They're already paying the salaries. I don't have enough experience riding LD to feel confident guessing a percentage, but I've encountered a good many Amtrak staff who go above and beyond earning their pay. And a distressing number who don't come near--way beyond a few bad apples.
> 
> Instead of cutting amenities further, perhaps Amtrak should look into supervisory dead wood. Clearly there are supervisors who are failing to ensure consistent service. Whether that's because they're inept, or because they're not given the resources to do their jobs properly, I don't know.


Actually, this has been done. We discussed this in the Amtrak Announces Management/Non-Agreement Buyout thread.

No one updated that thread but once the buyout concluded, phase II (the involuntary reduction) commenced. That phase concluded a few weeks ago. We'll see what results it will yield. However, since payroll is still a big chunk of the subsidies, eliminating positions (rank and file in addition to supervisory) will likely yield more savings.


----------



## Triley

Not that it'll make a difference, but I came across this on Facebook courtesy of a fellow LSA, and thought I'd pass it along.

https://www.change.org/p/amtrak-save-the-coast-starlight-pacific-parlour-cars?recruiter=698295752&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=autopublish&utm_content=nafta_fb_canonical_share_3%3Acontrol

Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## Anderson

What Thirdrail said about labor is actually painfully obvious if you look at the last two MPRs. Now, they dropped a _lot_ of useful data and brought some of the remaining data out to a level of resolution that makes it hard to analyze (e.g. only reporting ridership to the nearest thousand) but one thing that was _screaming_ at me in the November report is that labor costs were up by over 7% YoY. On the one hand, some of this could be one-off expenses ($17.7m of the YTD increase was in October versus $5.6 in November). On the other hand, the summaries of the changes YoY are the sorts of nigh-on useless bits that I'm used to seeing as part of explaining routine contract adjustments: Ok, thanks for mentiong that but I can read the numbers above..._what_ was driving the numbers?


----------



## neroden

Frankly, the competent OBS staff earn their money, as do the competent conductors and ACs.

The yard staff at Chicago are another matter, and there are stories dating from the Pennsy days to last month about behavior there.

Engineers are probably required by host railroad contract, but honestly their job could be automated now, and they seem to get paid a lot.

Management at Chicago is clearly also incompetent. They cut the number of Red Caps below the number necessary to handle disabled passengers, which is *illegal*; we'll see how long before the lawsuits drop, which will cost more than any putative labor savings.


----------



## tricia

Thirdrail7 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, unlike the amenities, ensuring that employees actually do the jobs they're paid for, in a customer-friendly manner, shouldn't cost anything. They're already paying the salaries. I don't have enough experience riding LD to feel confident guessing a percentage, but I've encountered a good many Amtrak staff who go above and beyond earning their pay. And a distressing number who don't come near--way beyond a few bad apples.
> 
> Instead of cutting amenities further, perhaps Amtrak should look into supervisory dead wood. Clearly there are supervisors who are failing to ensure consistent service. Whether that's because they're inept, or because they're not given the resources to do their jobs properly, I don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, this has been done. We discussed this in the Amtrak Announces Management/Non-Agreement Buyout thread.
> 
> No one updated that thread but once the buyout concluded, phase II (the involuntary reduction) commenced. That phase concluded a few weeks ago. We'll see what results it will yield. However, since payroll is still a big chunk of the subsidies, eliminating positions (rank and file in addition to supervisory) will likely yield more savings.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, as several folks on the thread you've cited noted, it's likely that greater numbers of more-competent (rather than less-competent) employees took the buyout offer and left.


----------



## Ryan

Bob Dylan said:


> Agreed! Perhaps the Beancounters will kill all the Amenities aboard Trains and then rebrand Amtrak as Ryan Rail.


Hey! I resemble that remark!



rtabern said:


> My point was Amtrak cant keep making cuts and expecting people to pay the same or even more for worse service and stay in business.


Yet, as you note below, they have been doing that for years and still manage to have increased ridership and revenue.



> Sure maybe people will still ride with worse meals on eastern overnight trains... no Parlour Cars... no newspapers... no coffee after 11am... less choices of juices... no amenity kits... no champagne... no wine and cheese tastings... no flowers in the dining car... no china in the dining car... no souveniers sold on board anymore... no movies in the lounge cars... cuts to Trails and Rails... harder to earn and redeem Guest Rewards... on and on.


No maybe about it. They are.



> Personally we have reached our breaking point with all the small cuts and BS. We rode for the PPCs and the Dome.


Your end to end trip represnets 0.00004% of Amtrak's annual revenue, even if it's at high bucket. They will neither notice nor care that you choose to do something else with your leisure time.


----------



## zephyr17

When Amtrak first started, and they contracted with the railroads to run the trains in their entireity, Amtrak's initial Super Chief was identical in almost all ways (they rerouted it to serve Topeka and moved the Chicago terminal to Union Station from Dearborn) to the Santa Fe Super Chief, since Santa Fe was running it, including all onboard services.

I rode the Super Chief and, trust me, it's been a very, very long fall from there. And people kept riding. So I don't buy rtabern's argument at all. 46 years of Amtrak mediocrity argue against it.


----------



## PVD

Not always as individuals, but certainly as a society, we have been willing to accept a major downward slide in service in most forms of transportation. Have a coach lounge or full meal on your domestic wide body recently?


----------



## zephyr17

PVD said:


> Not always as individuals, but certainly as a society, we have been willing to accept a major downward slide in service in most forms of transportation. Have a coach lounge or full meal on your domestic wide body recently?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I don't disagree that US transportation has fallen far from grace, but I'm curious why those would be the examples given. Full coach meals were never actually cooked on board and are almost entirely unnecessary in the era of jet speed flights and airports with dozens of food options. Coach lounges were such a rarity that even in their heyday they only lasted a few brief years on a few premium routes before being replaced with additional revenue seats. Widebody domestic aircraft made a lot more sense when airports had fewer gates, airlines had fewer flights, and medium sized domestic aircraft were still on the drawing board.


----------



## PVD

I used those examples because they were indicative of perks or amenities removed in favor of increasing revenues. Not much different than 10 across aircraft becoming 11, or 11 across becoming 12. Food being necessary or not is not the point, it is about something that people came to expect that was taken away, and people accepted it.


----------



## Trogdor

The "decline" in services provided in transportation is almost entirely linked to the shift towards transportation being a utility rather than a luxury. Travel is far more prevalent today than it was decades ago, and (partly as a cause, partly as an effect) costs have gone down quite a bit.

For the vast majority of people, transportation is a means to get somewhere, and they just want it to be as cheap and easy as possible. They don't care about luxury, they don't care about sightseeing, they just want to get where they're going in a timely manner and not pay too much for it.

Some people still want some of the services that were provided in the past, and in many (but not all) cases, you still can. It's just not automatically handed to you like it was before. Want food on a plane? You can still get it, you just have to pay for it. Want more room? Buy Economy Plus, or even domestic first (the upcharge for domestic first on some flights can be as low as $100-200, and your total is still likely to be cheaper than it was in the 1970s and 1980s, flying coach, on those routes).

Lots of companies have tried to go against the tide and provide better service, only to fail (premium-only airlines have consistently struggled, Iowa Pacific learned that the costs of providing a dome car and on-board chef were higher than what they could actually make back in revenue, etc.). The problem is that while *some* people will travel specifically for the amenities, not enough typically do so to justify the added cost of those amenities. For all the railfans that foamed over the restoration of dome-diner service, the couple of times I rode the Hoosier State, we had fewer than 10 people in the car (on one trip, the Cardinal's Amfleet club-dinette business class on the way down had more passengers than the Hoosier State's dome business class on the return). While two trips aren't enough to get a statistically valid sample, they fit with my general observations and lots of data in the transportation industry that when it comes to getting from A to B, simple and cheap will win over luxurious and expensive any day of the week, and it's simply not practical to provide luxury that isn't at least somewhat expensive. Whether those expenses get passed on to the customer, or get absorbed into the company's losses, doesn't change that it is does cost quite a bit to provide.

Eventually, companies have to decide whether maintaining that luxury and service for the very small proportion of people who really want it is worthwhile. In some cases, such as airlines serving meals, they've been able to maintain that service for those who want it by charging for it (don't want it, don't pay for it; want it, pay for it). However, in some cases, and I suspect maintaining the Parlours is one of those, there's no reasonable surcharge that would come close to covering the expense of the car just for those who want it and are willing to pay for it. If they charged passengers an extra $10 to eat and/or do wine tasting in the Parlour car, you'd probably get some folks who'd do it. But there's also no way that $200-300 is going to cover the cost of the car, its maintenance, staff, and extra fuel (yes, more weight does mean more fuel burned) required. What if the cost was $100 per person? Then, certainly, a lot fewer people would choose to do so, and when you have fewer people, the cost per person goes up even more. (Someone earlier in the thread suggested raising fares by $50/room, IIRC. That's disingenuous for a couple of reasons. First, if Amtrak could have been charging $50/room more, with the Parlour Car, then they'd already be doing so. Second, it's incorrect to assume that sleeper passengers don't care about fares and are just willing to pay whatever Amtrak charges. Everybody has their limit.)

In the end, sometimes unpleasant decisions have to be made because what sold in the 1950s doesn't necessarily sell in the 2010s, despite many people's nostalgic desire to keep doing things they remember doing when they were young. But "kids these days" (including business people in their 40s and 50s) would really rather have wifi and a place to charge their electronic devices. Still bring on the booze, but you can keep the dome car.


----------



## ChuckL

Another reminder of service cutbacks on the PPC since October 2013 when this picture was taken. Remember the flowers on the tables (also in the dining car) and the glass wine glasses for the previous wine tastings? The “luxuries” have been taken away by Amtrak pretty steadily.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## riderails

Find all enthusiasm regarding PPC interesting given very recent CS trip (Nov. 23) on which very few were found in the facility at numerous observations. This included only three tables in use for *unshared* sitting at one of the "last chance" meal times. This even though the two (admittedly) sleepers seemed to be filled or mostly so. Appears advocates are in a minority. I will admit the few lounge chairs are a delight.


----------



## Anderson

I found a reasonable amount of use the week after Thanksgiving. It wasn't as packed as it would have been in the past, but I got stuck wrangling for a seat for a chunk of the trip.

That being said, the second-day wine tasting seems to have vanished somewhere along the line (among other things). What's interesting is that I remember a few years ago, having occasional trouble grabbing a meal in the PPC instead of the diner.


----------



## neroden

The Superliner Lounges are supposed to have swivelling chairs... the problem is that Amtrak never maintained them properly and they don't usually swivel.  You don't need a PPC to fix this.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

What was the point of combining two or more chairs into a single oversized swiveling device? Even when they work they can barely turn because there's not much room for something that large to move on a train. What if you want to face one direction and your seatmate wants to look somewhere else? Those SSL swivel chairs are just about the dumbest most incomprehensible seating contraption I've ever seen. Even worse than those AmCoach loveseats with no armrests or other dividers between sleeping strangers.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The swivel chairs should not swivel anymore. There was a derailment accident and the seats were causing injuries that should not of happen. Simple locking the chairs resulted in a safer environment for the passengers.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

To heck with safety...


----------



## neroden

Riiiiight. "Safety".

The Superliner lounges, if their frames are still good, would benefit from an interior refresh. It would be trivial to provide PPC-style swivel chairs.


----------



## MikeM

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The swivel chairs should not swivel anymore. There was a derailment accident and the seats were causing injuries that should not of happen. Simple locking the chairs resulted in a safer environment for the passengers.


If safety is so important, how about fixing the flooring in the lower level of the Lounges? Last trip I took, the floor which looked original, had big bumps in it and several tears fixed with duct tape. Major trip hazard. I think the odds someone would injure themselves tripping or losing footing on stairs is far greater than the risk of a chair swiveling. I'd even vote to reduce or eliminate tables and the drink bar on the upper level to provide more seating.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The swivel chairs issue came from a NTSB report of a derailment.


----------



## TinCan782

It would be nice if the "chair" in a Superliner bedroom would swivel! It would be nice if they were comfortable too!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Comfort is not safe.


----------



## JoeBas

Green Maned Lion said:


> Comfort is not safe.


Mercedes Benz would like to disagree.


----------



## PVD

Mercedes is known for top shelf engineering, not comfort. Plenty of cars out there that are more comfortable.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I disagree. Besides Volvo and Peugeot nothing is more so.


----------



## PRR 60

Classic AU. Pacific Parlour Car discussion morphs into an argument over automobile quality. For the benefit of those who click here expecting info about the retirement of the Parlour cars, please take further discussion of autos to the Lounge. Thanks.


----------



## Rail Freak

PRR 60 said:


> Classic AU. Pacific Parlour Car discussion morphs into an argument over automobile quality. For the benefit of those who click here expecting info about the retirement of the Parlour cars, please take further discussion of autos to the Lounge. Thanks.


LOL. Love It!!!


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

With them being so popular, I wonder if Amtrak will save a few of them for museums?


----------



## Ryan

If someone is willing to pay more than scrap for them, sure.


----------



## Bob Dylan

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> With them being so popular, I wonder if Amtrak will save a few of them for museums?


Hopefully the California Rail Museum in Sacramento will get one, and also the Rail Museum in Portland.Is there a Rail Museum in Seattle and LA that could handle them also??


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> If someone is willing to pay more than scrap for them, sure.


That is the sad truth of it.


----------



## akbrian

I've reserved a roomette on 11 from Seattle down to San Jose on the 4th. I hope I don't miss too much of the farewell to the PPC, not being on the second day of the final journey to LA.

Is it really that likely they will be scraped instead of sold off for use as a private car?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

From the sounds of it Amtrak received an offer well in excess of scrap value. Supposedly the high price offered was part of the reason Amtrak rushed to get the cars off the road and into the hands of the buyer before any unplanned complication could ***** the deal.


----------



## Seaboard92

Bob Dylan said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With them being so popular, I wonder if Amtrak will save a few of them for museums?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully the California Rail Museum in Sacramento will get one, and also the Rail Museum in Portland.Is there a Rail Museum in Seattle and LA that could handle them also??
Click to expand...

The closest rail museum to Seattle is the Northwest Railroad Museum in Snoqualmie and it doesn't have main line connection. Plus all they have is single level equipment so not really worth trucking it there. CRM definitely can't use them in operation but a good preservation home.

I love ORHF but they would be a horrible home. Not compatible with their cars and stored outside.


----------



## Blackwolf

Devil's Advocate said:


> From the sounds of it Amtrak received an offer well in excess of scrap value. Supposedly the high price offered was part of the reason Amtrak rushed to get the cars off the road and into the hands of the buyer before any unplanned complication could ***** the deal. I also heard that turning a small fleet of relatively ancient lounge cars into liquid assets was financially desirable after experiencing several wrecks and continuing litigation.


Just gonna start a new (completely unfounded, wild and dangerous) rumor.

Warren Buffett's new private varnish...


----------



## CHamilton

Amtrak is selling pre-orders of PPC t-shirts and pins. One run only. Be warned, they're using Staples "Corporate Merchandise" again, which is the worst e-commerce website ever. https://amtrak.bnr.corpmerchandise.com/Welcome.aspx?


----------



## ChuckL

CHamilton said:


> Amtrak is selling pre-orders of PPC t-shirts and pins. One run only. Be warned, they're using Staples "Corporate Merchandise" again, which is the worst e-commerce website ever. https://amtrak.bnr.corpmerchandise.com/Welcome.aspx?


I get an error: Unauthorized We’re sorry but you are unauthorized to view this website

when I try to use the link that was provided.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## CHamilton

Try this. https://amtrak.bnr.corpmerchandise.com/parlour2018


----------



## ChuckL

CHamilton said:


> Try this. https://amtrak.bnr.corpmerchandise.com/parlour2018


That link works and I can fill out an order. However after filling out the customer information you’re told to press the Save button and there isn’t one. I’ve emailed their customer help desk. 
Addendum: They just responded back and said that if you are using a tablet or mobile device instead of a computer, the bottom of the screen might be chopped off.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## ChuckL

ChuckL said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try this. https://amtrak.bnr.corpmerchandise.com/parlour2018
> 
> 
> 
> That link works and I can fill out an order. However after filling out the customer information you’re told to press the Save button and there isn’t one. I’ve emailed their customer help desk.
> Addendum: They just responded back and said that if you are using a tablet or mobile device instead of a computer, the bottom of the screen might be chopped off.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Addendum 2:I found out that when using an iPhone, you can click on the Go button instead of Done after filling out the information form and it does the same as what the Save button would do. It takes you to the next screen where you can enter your billing information.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## CHamilton

Their e-commerce software is awful, and has been for some time.


----------



## Trogdor

Surprised at the lack of discussion/activity in this thread, given that the final trips are underway.

The last northbound, 11(2), arrived in Seattle tonight a few minute early. As noted in another thread, there were two Parlour Cars.

In typical Amtrak fashion, the crew on the train wasn't expecting a second Parlour, and also didn't realize that all sleeper passengers had been given a letter noting the special final trip and announcing that wine tasting was free. Nonetheless, they adapted, and were great about it (none of them, nor any passengers I spoke with, had ever seen two Pacific Parlour cars together, in service, before).

Initially, the second Parlour Car was just supposed to be overflow seating, but once they realized how many passengers were interested, they wound up offering meals and wine tasting in both cars (they ran out of wine glasses because they were unprepared for a free tasting, not realizing how many would participate, so they had to use regular water glasses on the first day and plastic cups on the second day).

We had CJ and Darren in the Parlours (the latter who, I gather, was supposed to be the dining car LSA, but wound up becoming the second Parlour LSA with someone else in the diner serving as LSA, though I don't know if I have that 100% accurate).

Many passengers came to say their goodbyes on the trip (a few on the northbound are planning to head right back southbound tomorrow). I met a few current and former AU-ers on the train (some expectedly, some unexpectedly), and a few other folks that knew people that I knew. Small world.

Some folks, both passengers and crew, did become a bit emotional when discussing the end of Parlour Car service, which is understandable given that some of the younger passengers on the train basically grew up with the cars, and some of the crew spent most (or all) of their careers working on or around the Parlour cars.

One gentleman on the train brought brochures and a ticket receipt from the El Capitan in 1969, which was the last time he had ridden in one of those cars. Another guy was a journalism student talking to crew and passengers and taking lots of photos and video to document the final northbound run.

The farewell letter left in each sleeper room pointed out that these particular cars spent more time in service as the Pacific Parlour Car (23 years) than they did with the ATSF (15 years).

Overall, one couldn't have asked for a better Starlight trip, with excellent crews and an on-time arrival into Seattle (though we were a bit late at some of the Northern California stops). Many people were griping about the relative suddenness of their elimination and lack of time to prepare for a proper send-off. Others lamented not so much the elimination of that specific equipment, but more the fact that there will no longer be a dedicated sleeper lounge on the train.

Technically, the cars still have two days of service left, but right now, it really feels like the end of an era. Not just of pre-Amtrak equipment in regular Amtrak service, not just of the Hi-Level Pacific Parlour Car equipment, but of (perhaps?) the last real bastion of premium service on a regularly scheduled passenger train in the United States. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, or a good thing. It is a thing. As I've noted earlier in the thread, it could very well be that "Premium Service" no longer really sells enough in a sustainable manner to offer proper returns. The reality of the current paradigm (which, really, has been becoming more and more evident) is that Amtrak has to fight harder and harder to justify its expenditures. It's always lamentable when things we know and have come to love cease to be. But that doesn't mean that things should just keep going the way they were, just because.

Will eliminating the Parlour Cars improve or harm Amtrak's overall financial condition? It's hard to say. Will Amtrak's critics be less critical with one less fancy service being offered. Almost definitely not. Should we care? About the latter, not really. About the former, certainly.

In the end, I'm glad I spent my weekend on this train, but when I put emotion and rumor aside, it's really difficult to say what move was the best move was for Amtrak to make, given the context of the situation in which it exists today.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thank you for that well written report,Trogdor. It amazing that members of this board knew about the double parlor car operation and the operating crew didn't.

Actually, I'm somehow not that surprised.


----------



## Anderson

(And my WiFi ate two-thirds of this post, so the whole one is below.)


----------



## Anderson

So, I got to talk with the service manager...the second PPC was apparently cobbled together with much arm-twisting out of LAX (and comments of "No, an extra SSL will NOT cut it").

There are some trip-only merch sales going on (mugs, posters, teddy bears, and luggage tags; there may be some additional stuff tomorrow as well depending on the whims of FedEx), and the wine tastings have been free (cheese and crackers are still extra, but the wine is included).

Amtrak has definitely put their best foot forward with this trip...

...but boy, am I going to need a few days to work through this when it's all over. I am _not_ going to be in the mood for dealing with wild rumors or crises of the future of Amtrak for a little while.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Anderson said:


> ...but boy, am I going to need a few days to work through this when it's all over. *I am *_*not*_* going to be in the mood for dealing with wild rumors or crises of the future of Amtrak for a little while.*


But it is such sport!


----------



## rtabern

Just got home from a quick whilwind trip to ride the last northbound from Salem to Seattle. It looks like Trogdor, myself, my wife and another AU'er get the distinction of the final northbound dinner in the PPC.

I do wish there was more notice as many have said. Having an employer that requires time off be put in 4 weeks out and Amtrak giving only a 2 week notice meant for a long day of flying out on Saturday and riding up to Seattle. But we would do it again in a heartbeat.

As Trogdor said the crew was great. Everyone who wanted dinner in the PPC got it I believe. They did wine tastings in both cars at least on Saturday. And yes no one told the crews about the second car. I guess there was quite the backorder at Seattle for #11(04) for food and booze.

I am going to be writing a series of three articles for Trainweb.com about the cars. I can share them on here if people are interested.

Like I said... I don't see myself really riding the Starlight anymore. If I really have go Seattle to LA I will fly because it's two hours vs two days. The scenery is still great even without a PPC but we have done it enough in recent years. I am not going to spend $1200 for a bedroom not to have it not be ocean side and then have to fight for the 20 seats in the Sightseer. And if I really want to see the ocean I will rent a car and drive to a secluded beach to enjoy the time... just my wife and I. I see Amtrak trips mainly being on the dome (while it is still around and I know about it in advance)... trips in the Northeast where driving is a pain in the ass... and maybe between places like Chicago and KC where the train is faster given the highway grids.


----------



## ChuckL

rtabern said:


> Just got home from a quick whilwind trip to ride the last northbound from Salem to Seattle. It looks like Trogdor, myself, my wife and another AU'er get the distinction of the final northbound dinner in the PPC.
> 
> I do wish there was more notice as many have said. Having an employer that requires time off be put in 4 weeks out and Amtrak giving only a 2 week notice meant for a long day of flying out on Saturday and riding up to Seattle. But we would do it again in a heartbeat.
> 
> As Trogdor said the crew was great. Everyone who wanted dinner in the PPC got it I believe. They did wine tastings in both cars at least on Saturday. And yes no one told the crews about the second car. I guess there was quite the backorder at Seattle for #11(04) for food and booze.
> 
> I am going to be writing a series of three articles for Trainweb.com about the cars. I can share them on here if people are interested.......


Please share them here. Glad you had a great final trip!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## rtabern

Here is the first of three articles we are writing for TrainWeb on the Parlour Cars. In the coming weeks, we are going to do a trip report for our last run on February 3rd and then another report on the "missing" PPC #39971 sold off in 2001.

http://www.trainweb.org/outsidetherails/PPCHistory2018/

Enjoy!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nice article Rob!

Look forward to the next reports!

RIP Pacific Parlour Cars!


----------



## ChuckL

Very nice and informative article on the history of these unique treasures which I enjoyed on the El Capitan in 1968 and as Pacific Parlour Cars in 2013 and 2017. Amtrak MAY decide to attempt to replicate some features of the PPC on the Coast Starlight, but they cannot replicate the history and many passenger’s memories of these beauties. I am anxiously awaiting the next two reports and thank you for sharing these with us!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## J-1 3235

Thank you for sharing your excellent report with us, Rob. I truly enjoyed all the facts and photos. Even the one with me in it!





I'm looking forward to article two and three.

Mike


----------



## dogbert617

This is super sad news.



I never quite to ride a PPC, before those were retired. But I guess if the reports are true about their age, I can see why they're finally being retired. I at least hope the PPCs aren't scrapped, and that those cars are reused somehow.

Side question: anyone know how much longer the Coast Starlight and Cascades trains will use the old track route south of Tacoma, since the new route was temporarily taken out of service after that derailment? I wonder if I were to do a USA Rail Pass trip later this year, if I'd have enough time to ride the Coast Starlight going north to Seattle(and then the Empire east back to Chicago) before Amtrak trains stop using that route.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

They were built 65+ years ago and have had the tar beaten out of them in Amtraks service, and I believe equally so in El Capitan service (6 sets, six cars, daily service). So yeah, the age is quite true.


----------



## Anderson

So, I got to be in the final NB dinner seating in the PPC. The final dinner seating in the SB PPC sold out before they got around to me (though I did have lunch there yesterday, so that's something). I think I did manage to close out the bar, however (though they let us stay in the PPC all the way into LAX, which was nice).


----------



## JRR

You can always ride the VIA Ocean from Montreal to Halifax or vice versa and enjoy a Dome/lounge like the PPV.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## WoodyinNYC

dogbert617 said:


> This is super sad news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Side question: anyone know how much longer the Coast Starlight and Cascades trains will use the old track route south of Tacoma, since the new route was temporarily taken out of service after that derailment? I wonder if I were to do a USA Rail Pass trip later this year, if I'd have enough time to ride the Coast Starlight going north to Seattle(and then the Empire east back to Chicago) before Amtrak trains stop using that route.


iirc The target date for the bypass is April, but I don't think it has a specific date yet. It is supposed to happen when the PTC is up and tested and working. A delay is possible, of course. But I wouldn't count on using the old route after April.


----------



## Anderson

JRR said:


> You can always ride the VIA Ocean from Montreal to Halifax or vice versa and enjoy a Dome/lounge like the PPV.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Yes, but:

(1) It's _not_ the PPC and it's in Canada (which is a mild pain to get to);

(2) Outside of the occasional "Budd extra", the food service on the _Ocean_ is rather constrained by the kitchen facilities onboard; and

(3) I'll take the _Canadian_ over the _Ocean_ most days because of (2) and because of the better scenery.


----------



## Anderson

By the way, there were _all_ sorts of rumors about the disposition of the PPCs going forward. One such rumor is that, following the N-S MSBL fiasco, LOSSAN is looking at grabbing the Hi-Level sets so they can get rid of the oddball Amfleet/Horizon equipment (which would make _some_ sense insofar as the MSBLs becoming single-level cars _does_ represent a capacity hit for all parties involved...rehabbing 62-year-old equipment doesn't make that much sense, but neither does having a screwball high-level-boarding/inherently-lower-capacity trainset...which apparently causes problems with having to turn pax away at times), which they seem to _really_ want to get rid of. There were other wild rumors about the cars having already been sold to a private buyer, etc. (and some of the rumor sets weren't mutually exclusive...the St. Louis people who own the other hi-levels acquiring them in the context of then being able to arrange a multi-year lease or sale with LOSSAN would also make sense, and this would _not_ be the first time that CA had done something rather odd to try and get some extra capacity out there given that they're running the Comaro sets on the San Joaquin).


----------



## JRR

True enough. I agree about the Canadian but Halifax is a great place to visit.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Bob Dylan

JRR said:


> True enough. I agree about the Canadian but Halifax is a great place to visit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Anywhere in Canada is a great place to visit!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> Anywhere in Canada is a great place to visit!


Anywhere except the border crossing areas. Canadian customs and immigration has made it clear they don't want my tourist dollars and at this point I'm only too happy to oblige them. Even when I'm simply passing through from one foreign country to another they find a way to make the midpoint inspection process as tedious and annoying as possible.


----------



## CHamilton

WoodyinNYC said:


> dogbert617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is super sad news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Side question: anyone know how much longer the Coast Starlight and Cascades trains will use the old track route south of Tacoma, since the new route was temporarily taken out of service after that derailment? I wonder if I were to do a USA Rail Pass trip later this year, if I'd have enough time to ride the Coast Starlight going north to Seattle(and then the Empire east back to Chicago) before Amtrak trains stop using that route.
> 
> 
> 
> iirc The target date for the bypass is April, but I don't think it has a specific date yet. It is supposed to happen when the PTC is up and tested and working. A delay is possible, of course. But I wouldn't count on using the old route after April.
Click to expand...

WSDOT told us that PTC will be operational sometime in the third quarter. The CS and Cascades will use the old Point Defiance route until then.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Third quarter just in time for the end of the year requirements. The question is when will the locomotive get equipped with PTC. Point Defiance route has been reported to be equipped with PTC, but the Amtrak locomotives have not yet. Not sure how the old route is safer than the new route if your not using the safety systems on either route.


----------



## Trogdor

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Third quarter just in time for the end of the year requirements. The question is when will the locomotive get equipped with PTC. Point Defiance route has been reported to be equipped with PTC, but the Amtrak locomotives have not yet. Not sure how the old route is safer than the new route if your not using the safety systems on either route.


Its more of a political/public image thing.

That, plus the crews are all familiar with the old route, as theyve been running it for decades already.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Third quarter just in time for the end of the year requirements. The question is when will the locomotive get equipped with PTC. Point Defiance route has been reported to be equipped with PTC, but the Amtrak locomotives have not yet. Not sure how the old route is safer than the new route if your not using the safety systems on either route.


Welcome to the PTC circus in the la la land of make believe!


----------



## Anderson

Some of it is PR, but crew familiarity _does _matter. With that being said, there might also be a business decision here: Can you imagine the tail-end risk of a second crash happening on that line and what that might do to Cascades ridership (or the reputation of that line)?


----------



## Lonestar648

rtabern said:


> Here is the first of three articles we are writing for TrainWeb on the Parlour Cars. In the coming weeks, we are going to do a trip report for our last run on February 3rd and then another report on the "missing" PPC #39971 sold off in 2001.
> 
> http://www.trainweb.org/outsidetherails/PPCHistory2018/
> 
> Enjoy!


Great article! I really enjoyed the history. So look forward to the future two articles.


----------



## CHvision

rtabern said:


> Here is the first of three articles we are writing for TrainWeb on the Parlour Cars. In the coming weeks, we are going to do a trip report for our last run on February 3rd and then another report on the "missing" PPC #39971 sold off in 2001.
> 
> http://www.trainweb.org/outsidetherails/PPCHistory2018/
> 
> Enjoy!


Very interesting article!

Also, for a thought: Is the consist the same now that the Parlor is off the Starlight?


----------



## jmx153

CHvision said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the first of three articles we are writing for TrainWeb on the Parlour Cars. In the coming weeks, we are going to do a trip report for our last run on February 3rd and then another report on the "missing" PPC #39971 sold off in 2001.
> 
> http://www.trainweb.org/outsidetherails/PPCHistory2018/
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting article!
> 
> Also, for a thought: Is the consist the same now that the Parlor is off the Starlight?
Click to expand...

Saw today's #14 as it departed EUG, consist was 2 P42s, baggage car, transition car, 2 sleepers, diner, business class car, sightseer lounge, and 2 coaches. For comparison, #14 on this past friday (2-2-18) had the same consist plus 1 sleeper and the PPC.


----------



## Maverickstation

JRR said:


> You can always ride the VIA Ocean from Montreal to Halifax or vice versa and enjoy a Dome/lounge like the PPV.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


. Agreed, The Ocean is a great overnight train ride. The Dome Car is well worth the sleeper charge, we had 2 wine tastings, and enjoyed having drinks in the observation end. The food is provided by a local caterer, and is reheated and plated on board. The diner itself is first class with tablecloths, flowers, and a full crew. In our case we met a lot of interesting people from all over the world, and not one other American. That explains why we did not hear any whining, and the like Ken

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Seaboard92

I actually took the ren one way and a Budd set the other. I can say honestly I couldn't tell a real difference in the food. Both sets were equally amazing and different in their own way. The only issue with ren food is they can't do substitutions as easily.


----------



## Lonestar648

It appears that Amtrak will try to just make the CS like the rest of Amtrak LD, no special amenities for Sleeper passengers.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Lonestar648 said:


> It appears that Amtrak will try to just make the CS like the rest of Amtrak LD, no special amenities for Sleeper passengers.


Well they already did that with the other LD trains... Empire Builder had wine tasting and an "enhanced" menu... lake shore limited had wine and cheese...


----------



## neroden

Hmm, I might try the Ocean. The Canadian is (a) too infrequent, (b) too slow, and © delayed way too much for me to ever fit it into my schedule, but the Ocean has more predictable running times and is more frequent, so I might do that some time.


----------



## CHvision

Lonestar648 said:


> It appears that Amtrak will try to just make the CS like the rest of Amtrak LD, no special amenities for Sleeper passengers.





crescent-zephyr said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears that Amtrak will try to just make the CS like the rest of Amtrak LD, no special amenities for Sleeper passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> Well they already did that with the other LD trains... Empire Builder had wine tasting and an "enhanced" menu... lake shore limited had wine and cheese...
Click to expand...

There's the Silver Star but the difference between those two is that dining service was removed for some reason


----------



## KnightRail

The four remaining PPCs on the west coast depart LAX tonight on train 4(15FEB2018), headed for Beech Grove. 39975 is already at Beech Grove for what was an overhaul.


----------



## rtabern

KnightRail said:


> The four remaining PPCs on the west coast depart LAX tonight on train 4(15FEB2018), headed for Beech Grove. 39975 is already at Beech Grove for what was an overhaul.



If anyone gets good shots over the weekend --- and wouldn't mind sharing them --- please e-mail the .jpg files to [email protected]

We'll incorporate them into the series of stories the APRHF (American Passenger Rail Heritage Foundation) is writing on the PPC's for Trainweb.com -- and we will give you credit

We have a booth at the train show in Madison, WI this weekend or else we'd be chasing it through Illinois. Dang it!

Thanks in advance, Robert & Kandace Tabern


----------



## rtabern

Update! Mechanical problems. ppcs being pulled off so #4 can leave on time tonight. Will not be going!!


----------



## neroden

I am still a little surprised that Amtrak didn't (after fixing mechanical problems) sell a bunch of special tickets for the "Four PPCs from LA to Chicago" run. Cheap way to make extra money.


----------



## Anderson

@Nathanael: I agree with that (or at least, staffing one and promoting the heck out of it; one or two of them might not have been in a "passenger-friendly" condition). Given the business the PPC's bar did on the last run, if they'd given a few weeks' notice on it? I'd be _sorely_ tempted to toss a set of plans I have for the next two weeks to ride in one of the PPCs over Raton Pass, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. They could _probably_ at least sell a sleeper's worth of tickets on the offer with decent notice, and at the moment I see no compelling reason _not_ to offer said notice.

(Of course, since the cars had to go to Beech Grove _anyway_ on an occasional basis, why Amtrak _never _sold this as an excursion of some sort is beyond me right now; I never really thought of this. Your net cost is a single cafe/PPC attendant plus direct F&B costs (e.g. the food itself). I think 2-3 extra sleeper tickets sold LAX-CHI covers that even if you just turn around and fly the cafe attendant back to LAX when they get to CHI, and I think you could've sold a few more than that pretty reliably...and if you're adding an extra sleeper, well, I would _hope_ that the sleeper pax are paying enough for the extra SCA...)


----------



## Ryan

Anderson said:


> and at the moment I see no compelling reason _not_ to offer said notice.


Other than the demonstrated fact that they don't know what day they're going to run them? Thats kind of important.


----------



## CHvision

Parlor cars are hooked up to train #4 tonight from the Amtrak fans group.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CHvision said:


> Parlor cars are hooked up to train #4 tonight from the Amtrak fans group.


Only 2 on this trip.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## The Chief

Anderson said:


> (Of course, since the cars had to go to Beech Grove _anyway_ on an occasional basis, why Amtrak _never _sold this as an excursion of some sort is beyond me right now; I never really thought of this.


Yes *Anderson* you just did think about it! The rocket scientists at Amtrak never thought about it.

The NRPC LD culture so often seems to focus on employees rather than on customers/PAX. How's that workin' out for 'em?

This is the RR that often gives preferred seating in Lounge or Dining Car to op crew.

Oh well. That could have been a neat revenue-buzz-publicity generator, if Amtrak tried it a couple of times to see what results were.


----------



## The Chief

Budd-Built ATSF Hi-Level Lounge cars had a newsstand & bar at one end & 60 seats upstairs, plus 20 more seats & a Kachina Lounge coffee shop downstairs. Santa Fe Brochure excerpt:


----------



## Anderson

Ryan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> and at the moment I see no compelling reason _not_ to offer said notice.
> 
> 
> 
> Other than the demonstrated fact that they don't know what day they're going to run them? Thats kind of important.
Click to expand...

At least in this case, though, I suspect that there was very much a "we'll send them out when we can" attitude. At least three of the PPCs were in working order two weekends ago (two for the final run and one for the second-to-last run), so making sure they had one working (out of four) for a single run (with an eye towards loading the others onto the train) _shouldn't_ be a stretch. I think it goes without saying that all else being equal, deadhead moves like this are _very much_ a "we'll get to it when we get to it" thing. I do consider it a given that at least one of the moves would necessarily have been an unannounced deadhead given the reliability issues, but putting together and pitching at least one of these trips as an "excursion" would seem to be no more of a chore than moving a rack of Horizons to the east coast for a leaf peeper trip. The odds of one car being bad-ordered may approach 100%, but the odds of three of the four (one already being at Beech Grove) being bad-ordered at the same time seem to be relatively low. FWIW I think you could realistically have done this twice (one PPC on each run) before the risk of a bad-order blowup would have become high enough to not want to try it.

Edit: This does come back around to the point that has been circulating, namely that a "farewell to the PPC" tour, using 2-3 of the cars over the course of the season, _should_ have been able to generate some net revenue (heck, sell PPC access tickets under some sort of "train XX03" label on Arrow if you want to demonstrate incremental revenue even if it should be painfully obvious if a random weekend suddenly sells a slug of additional tickets...30 tickets at $50 each, not a stretch IMHO, _ought_ to pay for the attendant on the outbound run plus getting them back to LAX, and that's presuming they sold $0 in drinks), but in this particular case it's a move that has to happen regardless and something that, with some notice and _de facto_ having 2-3 spares in LA, should be at _least_ as manageable as your "average" PV tour with 2-4 weeks' notice.


----------



## cpotisch

I was just arriving into Chicago on the TE and happened to spot two PPCs off to the side (Santa Lucia Highlands and Sonoma Valley)!

After I arrived, I walked straight to the train yard to check them out:




A further look around and on the other side of the yard, I see these:




Those are Columbia and Napa Valley!

I was able to get that pic from just outside the (‘Amtrak Personnel Only’) yard. We then asked an Amtrak employee and he said we could walk over and take some close up photos!





AND the second Amtrak employee said we could go in! So here are some pictures of the inside of PPC ‘Columbia Valley’ taken at the Chicago Amtrak Yard:








Even crazier is that apparently, those PPCs arrived in Chicago just one hour before we did!

As someone who had never even seen a PPC before, and who was heartbroken when it was announced they’d be retired, I could not have been happier.


----------



## daybeers

Wow, what a cool experience! Thanks for posting those!


----------



## cpotisch

daybeers said:


> Wow, what a cool experience! Thanks for posting those!


YOU ARE WELCOME!


----------



## cpotisch

So I'm sort of resurrection this thread from the dead (as I like to do), but where are the PPCs now? Were they scrapped, sold off, or are they just waiting around in Beech Grove?


----------



## OBS

cpotisch said:


> So I'm resurrecting this from the dead, but where are the PPCs? Have any been scrapped or sold off, or are they all at beech grove?


Seaboard92 bought them all........


----------



## cpotisch

OBS said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm resurrecting this from the dead, but where are the PPCs? Have any been scrapped or sold off, or are they all at beech grove?
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 bought them all........
Click to expand...

Haha, but does anyone actually know?


----------



## MikefromCrete

If the parlor cars were sold or scrapped, we would have heard about it. I bet they are sitting around a yard in Los Angeles or are at the Grove, although we would have heard about the movement of the cars from the west coast to Indy. So best guess, in L.A.


----------



## cpotisch

MikefromCrete said:


> If the parlor cars were sold or scrapped, we would have heard about it. I bet they are sitting around a yard in Los Angeles or are at the Grove, although we would have heard about the movement of the cars from the west coast to Indy. So best guess, in L.A.


Thanks. I would note that they did in fact go to Beech Grove on the SWC and Hoosier State in February, so unless they were sent back to LA and no one heard about it, they should just be sitting in Indiana.


----------



## wdscott

I travel past the yard in Los Angeles quite frequently. Since I’ve grown weary of admiring the natural beauty of the Los Angeles River on the east side of the Surfliner I more typically look at the yard. There hasn’t been a Parlour Car there in many months.


----------



## railiner

Nice shots...I didn't see your post when you first posted them, so thanks for reposting!

And...looks like that may be you in that inside shot?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

There at the Grove. Sitting and rusting away.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> There at the Grove. Sitting and rusting away.


Well, if they are really good quality Stainless Steel ..... hopefully not rusting too much


----------



## Seaboard92

OBS said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm resurrecting this from the dead, but where are the PPCs? Have any been scrapped or sold off, or are they all at beech grove?
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 bought them all........
Click to expand...

Nope not me. I bought two other Budd Company Cars. But if Amtrak wanted to sell me one of those heritage Pacific series sleepers in Beech Grove, or some diners I would be all interested in whole cars, and parts. 
I have no interest in the PPCs because they would require serious work to be compatible with our other cars. I'm not even sure if the PPCs have any usable parts I could part out either. But the diners I have a non Amtrak use for them and would happily take at least five.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Parts for the PPCs ( ex Santa,Fe High Levels)don't exist and have to be "Custom made",ie Expensive.


----------



## trainman74

wdscott said:


> Since I’ve grown weary of admiring the natural beauty of the Los Angeles River on the east side of the Surfliner...


_*guffaw*_


----------



## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> There at the Grove. Sitting and rusting away.


The Acela lounges are being renovated. I hope they grabbed those snazzy, purple chairs for future use.


----------



## wdscott

trainman74 said:


> wdscott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I’ve grown weary of admiring the natural beauty of the Los Angeles River on the east side of the Surfliner...
> 
> 
> 
> _*guffaw*_
Click to expand...

It took some number of days, but finally someone admitted to catching that. Good catch!
Presumably the vast majority of forum players won’t get the joke as they’ve not seen the LA River in person. So here’s a brief explanation by example.

Have you seen any movie, car commercial, or anything else that shows an elegant concrete bridge over what appears to be a concrete aqueduct? Well, the lower concrete actually IS the LA River.

Many of the so called rivers in Southern California were paved in concrete many decades ago for flood control. Reason being “It never rains in California, but girl, don't they warn ya? It pours, man, it pours”.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

wdscott said:


> trainman74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wdscott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I’ve grown weary of admiring the natural beauty of the Los Angeles River on the east side of the Surfliner...
> 
> 
> 
> _*guffaw*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It took some number of days, but finally someone admitted to catching that. Good catch!
> Presumably the vast majority of forum players won’t get the joke as they’ve not seen the LA River in person. So here’s a brief explanation by example.
> 
> Have you seen any movie, car commercial, or anything else that shows an elegant concrete bridge over what appears to be a concrete aqueduct? Well, the lower concrete actually IS the LA River.
> 
> Many of the so called rivers in Southern California were paved in concrete many decades ago for flood control. Reason being “It never rains in California, but girl, don't they warn ya? It pours, man, it pours”.
Click to expand...

I got it, even though the only time I've been to LA is for connections (Amtrak and airline).


----------



## JayPea

Our little town here in SE Washington was prone to severe flooding until they paved the river for flood control. In fact, up until a couple of years ago, the town had a summer festival called the Concrete River Festival.


----------



## NorthShore

wdscott said:


> trainman74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wdscott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since Ive grown weary of admiring the natural beauty of the Los Angeles River on the east side of the Surfliner...
> 
> 
> 
> _*guffaw*_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It took some number of days, but finally someone admitted to catching that. Good catch!
> Presumably the vast majority of forum players wont get the joke as theyve not seen the LA River in person. So heres a brief explanation by example.
> 
> Have you seen any movie, car commercial, or anything else that shows an elegant concrete bridge over what appears to be a concrete aqueduct? Well, the lower concrete actually IS the LA River.
> 
> Many of the so called rivers in Southern California were paved in concrete many decades ago for flood control. Reason being It never rains in California, but girl, don't they warn ya? It pours, man, it pours.
Click to expand...

My first train trip to Los Angeles, I noted the river on a map and mentioned that I would be looking for it coming up to a fellow passenger. He responded, "River? What river? There's no river in L.A." Still, I spotted it!


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## railiner

This? A few seconds in, you can see an Amtrak train pass by, above....


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## Devil's Advocate

JayPea said:


> Our little town here in SE Washington was prone to severe flooding until they paved the river for flood control. In fact, up until a couple of years ago, the town had a summer festival called the Concrete River Festival.


I always wondered what it would be like to live in Mayberry. My own medium sized city turns into a massive concrete river two or three times each year. Although until now it never occurred to us that we should celebrate a hundred years of drownings and other unintended consequences thanks to cowboy engineering and absurdly inefficient zoning laws.


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## Bob Dylan

Sounds like you're describing Most Texas Cities Chris!


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## Cho Cho Charlie

Devil's Advocate said:


> I always wondered what it would be like to live in Mayberry.


The Parlour Car bartender would be Otis Campbell ?


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## JayPea

Devil's Advocate said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our little town here in SE Washington was prone to severe flooding until they paved the river for flood control. In fact, up until a couple of years ago, the town had a summer festival called the Concrete River Festival.
> 
> 
> 
> I always wondered what it would be like to live in Mayberry. My own medium sized city turns into a massive concrete river two or three times each year. Although until now it never occurred to us that we should celebrate a hundred years of drownings and other unintended consequences thanks to cowboy engineering and absurdly inefficient zoning laws.
Click to expand...

Here in Mayberry there is generally no excitement to speak of. We have to find any excuse possible to create excitement.


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## zephyr17

I am still waiting for the giant ants to emerge again.


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## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> I am still waiting for the giant ants to emerge again.


FOTFLMAO!


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## OlympianHiawatha

Bob Dylan said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am still waiting for the giant ants to emerge again.
> 
> 
> 
> FOTFLMAO!
Click to expand...

Make me a sergeant in charge of the booze...make me a sergeant and give me the booze!


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## cocojacoby

Just discussing the ADA requirements on another site and concluded that the PPC was not in compliance. Wonder if that weighed into the decision at all?


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## DevalDragon

Doesn't have to be because of the car's age. Unless they do any further modifications of course.


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## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> Just discussing the ADA requirements on another site and concluded that the PPC was not in compliance. Wonder if that weighed into the decision at all?


I wonder if that was because of the "step" between the PPC and Superliners.


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## Devil's Advocate

DevalDragon said:


> Doesn't have to be because of the car's age. Unless they do any further modifications of course.


If I recall correctly the PPC fleet was refurbished multiple times after passage of the ADA. Presumably it was grandfathered in and didn't need substantial ADA rework unless structurally modified.


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## Seaboard92

Our cars are exempt from ADA and we have gutted rebuilt the interiors as recent as 2016 and 2017. One was built in 1947 and one was in 1948. As long as the actual shell was built prior to the ADA cutoff I'm not sure about what the legislation says but it should be exempt.

Now that I think about it buying all five of the PPCs could make a good dinner train. #badideas


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## akbrian

How is anything on the upper level of any of the cars ADA compliant? You'd have to climb the stairs to get there.


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## zepherdude

akbrian said:


> How is anything on the upper level of any of the cars ADA compliant? You'd have to climb the stairs to get there.


There is a lower level for handicap passengers.


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## cpotisch

akbrian said:


> How is anything on the upper level of any of the cars ADA compliant? You'd have to climb the stairs to get there.


As I understand it, for the most part, so long as disabled passengers have access to the same services and amenities as able-bodied passengers, it's allowed. Since disabled pax can get rooms or seats on the lower level, can get their meals brought to their rooms, etc, it's allowed.


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## trainman74

akbrian said:


> How is anything on the upper level of any of the cars ADA compliant? You'd have to climb the stairs to get there.


Being unable to climb stairs is not the only type of disability that's covered by the ADA.


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## seat38a

akbrian said:


> How is anything on the upper level of any of the cars ADA compliant? You'd have to climb the stairs to get there.


Believe it or not, the government has the answer to your question!

https://www.access-board.gov/guidelines-and-standards/transportation/vehicles/technical-assistance-manuals-on-adaag-for-transportation-vehicles/subpart-e-commuter-rail-cars-and-systems

https://www.access-board.gov/guidelines-and-standards/transportation/vehicles/technical-assistance-manuals-on-adaag-for-transportation-vehicles/subpart-d-light-rail-vehicles-and-systems


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## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> Now that I think about it buying all five of the PPCs could make a good dinner train. #badideas


Or first reduce oneself to a Hundredaire from a Millionnaire as the necessary mechanical repairs and upgrades are completed using hand crafted replacement parts - or something like that. And then one has to figure out the food stuff and the rest of it.


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## cpotisch

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I think about it buying all five of the PPCs could make a good dinner train. #badideas
> 
> 
> 
> Or first reduce oneself to a Hundredaire from a Millionnaire as the necessary mechanical repairs and upgrades are completed using hand crafted replacement parts - or something like that. And then one has to figure out the food stuff and the rest of it.
Click to expand...

There a bunch of Hi-Levels at Ozark Mountain Railcar. He could buy one or two of those for parts. And there are a lot of rail fans who would love to take a ride in the PPCs once again. Not saying that he should do this, but it is theoretically feasible.


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I think about it buying all five of the PPCs could make a good dinner train. #badideas
> 
> 
> 
> Or first reduce oneself to a Hundredaire from a Millionnaire as the necessary mechanical repairs and upgrades are completed using hand crafted replacement parts - or something like that. And then one has to figure out the food stuff and the rest of it.
Click to expand...

Does the cost and severity of maintenance change if you remove them from active interchange duty and keep them isolated on private tracks? Just wondering how relatively tiny tourist railroads keep their rolling stock funcational without running into Amtrak level maintenance problems.


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## jis

I think a lot of volunteer labor and the relatively few pieces that have to be maintained to run at generally much slower speed with much lower accepted reliability makes a huge difference. Running stuff on an isolated tourist line is a very different thing from running cars attached to Amtrak trains on main line at track speed.

But Seaboard I am sure can give a much more knowledgeable answer.


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## Seaboard92

I've never actually worked on an isolated network so I actually don't have an answer at least from experience. But I do have some anecdotal experience from friends in the industry.

The only completely off network one I've been exposed to by a friend is Stone Mountain Scenic and they purposely took their interchange out so they wouldn't be under the same regulations as every other railroad by no longer being under the FRA. Now I'm not sure how true that really is.

But one key fact to remember the slower you run the less wear and tear from operations you'll have. Now as far as HVAC that's a different story. So electrical stuff will still face the same load as before. I'll have to ask a few friends who are Carmen for an isolated road and see what they get back to me with.

For the record I wouldn't actually buy the PPCs I hate one of a kind equipment and try to avoid it when purchasing. Unless it's a Cascade Club from the Southern Pacific (Three unit diner, club, lounge) that's a one of a kind car that majorly interests me.


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## RPC

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I think about it buying all five of the PPCs could make a good dinner train. #badideas
> 
> 
> 
> Or first reduce oneself to a Hundredaire from a Millionnaire as the necessary mechanical repairs and upgrades are completed using hand crafted replacement parts - or something like that. And then one has to figure out the food stuff and the rest of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does the cost and severity of maintenance change if you remove them from active interchange duty and keep them isolated on private tracks? Just wondering how relatively tiny tourist railroads keep their rolling stock funcational without running into Amtrak level maintenance problems.
Click to expand...

My son volunteers with the Black River & Western in NJ. Their idea of "head end power" is 120VAC single phase running the lights in each car from a portable generator up front with twist-lock connectors between cars. Of course we're talking heavyweight cars with windows that open. What with sealed windows, three-phase HVAC, and on-board cooking equipment, the PPCs are a whole different kettle of fish!


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