# AGR points trip: OK to book family rooms for only part of the trip?



## MJL (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm thinking of making the following one-way, one zone AGR points trip.



> Kansas City to Portland, OR. Book the tickets for KCY-WPT. Ride the Empire Builder for one stop so your tickets are collected and get turned in then catch the next train back to PDX or cab or whatever. Only check bags to PDX.


So, I am checking out availability of family rooms for the trip. I find several days for which the SW Chief and Coastal Starlight have family rooms available, but the Empire Builder does not.

If/when I call to book my trip, is it possible to do family rooms only for the part I would be really only using? Since the short portion of the Empire Builder trip from Portland to Vancouver WA or wherever I get off is just kind of a technicality to satisfy the loophole, I don't really need a room for that short time. Will AGR be OK with booking it like that, if the family rooms are not available? Besides, I wouldn't want to hog a fam room if we aren't even going to use it, anyway.


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## the_traveler (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes!

A family room and a bedroom are both the same number of points, so this would be possible. The only problem I can see you having is if there were 3 or 4 (which I assume you are getting the family room), and they will not book you all into a regular bedroom.

A couple of years ago, I went cross country on an AGR award, but there was only 1 room left on the CL. That room was the family room! Normally I wouldn't take it (for 2 people) wanting to save it for those who need it. But because I was redeeming a bedroom award, and it was the last room, I took it. I had no problem getting it for the same amount of points.


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## RRrich (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm not sure what you are asking. If you book a 1 zpne loophole trip from KCY - CBS, request a family BR for the whole trip, when you are told that the FBR is not available on the EB then get a regular br but make it sound like this is a great imposition.

If you actually only want to go to PDX, there is no reason to mess with boarding the EB - when you get to PDX, go where you want to go and have fun!


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## MJL (Feb 27, 2010)

RRrich said:


> I'm not sure what you are asking. If you book a 1 zpne loophole trip from KCY - CBS, request a family BR for the whole trip, when you are told that the FBR is not available on the EB then get a regular br but make it sound like this is a great imposition.
> If you actually only want to go to PDX, there is no reason to mess with boarding the EB - when you get to PDX, go where you want to go and have fun!


Thanks for the advice. In my OP I was quoting someone else's advice for how to book a 2-3 day partial "loophole" one zone trip from KCY. I want to travel only 2-3 days, not the full 5 days that would take us back to a Wolf Point or Columbus end point (I/we will have 2 small children with me/us).

So, I don't have to turn in my ticket on the EB, as that previous poster suggested? Just book the ticket to Wolf Point or Columbus, bail out in Portland, and don't worry about the rest?


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## MJL (Feb 27, 2010)

Also -- if they won't let 4 of us in a regular bedroom, can I pay cash for a 4th person to theoretically travel along with us to our final destination? Then call & cancel the coach ticket to WPT at the last minute?

Or say the 4th person is going to get off in Portland, but the rest of us 3 are going to go on? Any other ideas?


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## RRrich (Feb 27, 2010)

In your shoes I would call AGR requesting a FB KCY to CBS.

AGR - "sorry, FB is only available KCY - PDX"

You - "are you sure we can't put 2 adults & 2 kids in a deluxe BR?"

AGR will either say "yes you can" or "no you can't'" - if they say yes, great, if they say NO you say "well I guess I will have to call AMTRAK and book a ticket for the fourth person" (Different folks handle AGR & regulaar tickets) - you do NOT call.

enjoy your ride in FB to PDX and bail


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## amamba (Feb 28, 2010)

Just so I understand exactly what you are doing:

You are booking what is to be considered a one zone loophole trip from kansas City to wolfpoint, but you really only want to go as far as PDX, which would actually be a two zone reward if that is what you booked, but it counts as one zone if you do it to wolfpoint even though you aren't traveling that far.

Am I the only one that thinks this is NOT cool to just not use the entire segment? Reason being - you are taking away revenue that amtrak could have had if they had sold that bedroom - and the family bedroom - and taking up space that perhaps someone else wanted. That is a popular route that is often sold out.

I have no problem with people taking advantage of loopholes if they exist - heck, I want to! If amtrak had a problem with it, they would close the loopholes and start counting zones traveled or something.

But I have a problem with purposely cheating the system and booking something that should be a two zone reward and then not using part of the reward.

Maybe I am alone in this, but I don't think its right.


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## MJL (Mar 1, 2010)

Well, every "loophole" trip should be a two (or three) zone award. So no, I don't feel like I am cheating the system. What is the difference if I travel on to Wolf Point or Columbus, or if I don't? They would not get any extra revenue from me, whether I occupied the room, or not.

I do feel bad for taking up a space that another family could take, if I do get off in Portland, in that I am taking away something someone else could use. But I don't feel like I am cheating Amtrak.


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## RRrich (Mar 1, 2010)

It is my understanding that if you have a BR booked on a train and you don't occupy it, they may sell it to someone else (or allow an upgrade) as it is empty.


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## amamba (Mar 1, 2010)

RRrich said:


> It is my understanding that if you have a BR booked on a train and you don't occupy it, they may sell it to someone else (or allow an upgrade) as it is empty.


But if its sold as an upgrade, they sell it for low bucket, right? Hence, amtrak losing out on revenue because it could have been sold at high bucket.

Also, if you booked from Kansas City to Portland - where you are actually traveling - you would need to book a two zone award (20,000 points roomette or 30,000 points bedroom). Because you are booking to Wolfpoint, MT, it ends up being only a one zone award (15,000 points roomette or 20,000 points bedroom). Thus, you are using a lot less points then if you booked it normally as a two zone from KCY to PDX, plus amtrak is losing out on revenue because they could have sold the room that you have reserved but are not using (or sold it at a higher bucket).

If you are going to book to Wolf Point, go to wolf point. If your final destination is PDX, book to PDX. In my opinion, this is a questionable use of the loophole and an abuse. People who use the loopholes technically follow all the rules and occupy their rooms for the entire trip that they have reserved. That is why its a loophole - and not considered cheating. You on the other hand are purposely cheating, in my opinion, because you are not using your entire ticket. If too many people abuse the system, amtrak will change it, and then we will all lose out.


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## ceblack (Mar 1, 2010)

If I'm having a birthday party for my child and need 18 party hats, and the local store sells 6-packs for $4 each and 24-packs for $10 each, am I wrongfully denying them revenue by buying the 24-pack and discarding the six unused hats? In my opinion, no. I may not be giving them the maximum amount of revenue they could get for the amount of product I need, but most people I know would call that being a smart consumer.

If you use AGR points to book a loophole trip, you have paid AMTRAK/AGR the full value they have assigned to the trip. The fact that they charge fewer points for a longer routing is AMTRAK's issue. If you have paid the full value assigned by AMTRAK/AGR for the trip, it should not matter whether you use all, part, or none of it. It is yours to use (or not) as you see fit.

One possibility: After you reserve the full loophole trip, can you later call AGR and "give back" a portion of the trip? "Plans have changed and now we only want to go from X to Y instead of from X to Y to Z", or something like that. Would AGR even accept that, and would they then re-evaluate the charge for the shortened trip? Perhaps some more experienced AGR travellers know that answer... I'd probably want to know before I tried. Of course, if they tried to charge you more, you could always just keep the full trip... you've paid for it.

The point where I would draw the line is if you called AGR and tried to get some kind of refund/compensation for that portion of the trip you weren't going to use. This isn't even unethical in a "technical" sense... you paid the full amount (in points) to go from X to Y to Z, so you should be able to at least try to get some type of refund for not being able to go from Y to Z. Again, I don't know if AGR would even allow this... but I wouldn't feel right even trying.


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## the_traveler (Mar 1, 2010)

amamba said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> > It is my understanding that if you have a BR booked on a train and you don't occupy it, they may sell it to someone else (or allow an upgrade) as it is empty.
> ...


You're right - but you're wrong too!

Yes Amtrak can sell it as an upgrade for low bucket. But that passenger already paid (say) $350 for their ticket. The room - even at low bucket - is (say) $500! So Amtrak still gets $500! ($150 which they would not have had at all!)

And even if it were cancelled by someone, that specific room would re-enter inventory *AT THE ORIGINAL PRICE IT WAS SOLD FOR*! So even if the current bucket was $950, that specific room (if it was reserved when it was low bucket) would be resold for $500! So how is Amtrak losing money? :huh:

Using a frequent flyer award as an example, if I have a choice of flying from PVD to PDX via either Chicago, Houston, Denver or LA, should I take the most direct one, because the airline could sell the others for a higher price? :huh:

I used to live in upstate NY. When I went to Washington, DC, I would take I-87 to I-90 to I-88 to I-81 to IIRC I-281. Although it was (very) slightly longer, there were no tolls and I didn't like driving in/around NYC or NJ. So am I bad because I deprived some states of their toll money? :huh:


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## amamba (Mar 1, 2010)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I find it very interesting that so many of you don't see any issue at all with this.


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## ceblack (Mar 1, 2010)

An additional example, more Amtrak-related:

I want to travel from Boston to Baltimore on Acela. The price of a ticket from Boston to Baltimore is the same as the price of a ticket from Boston to Washington DC. However, I can get extra AGR points for purchasing a ticket from Boston to Washington because they are a select city pair. If I buy the BOS-WAS ticket, I have given Amtrak the full asking price for a seat on the train between those two points. If I get off in Baltimore, have I wrongfully denied Amtrak revenue (since they could have sold a ticket from BAL-WAS for $36)? No. The seat was paid for all the way to WAS. Has Amtrak earned the maximum revenue for that seat on that trip? No... but for Amtrak to earn maximum revenue possible on a seat, it would likely have to be sold separately between each adjacent stop along the route (A to B, B to C, C to D, etc.) or else Amtrak would have to charge the cumulative amount for every trip (e.g., price from A to C equals price from A to B plus price from B to C). Obviously, Amtrak doesn't do that... because it clearly wouldn't work. It has some method for determining pricing which (we hope) attempts to get the maximum revenue from their operations. That method creates "loopholes" like the one above that benefit the traveler (and specifically, the_traveler). I don't think using those loopholes constitutes a violation of ethics.


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## the_traveler (Mar 1, 2010)

To further state what ceblack just said, and it pertains to you living on PVD.

If you were to take Acela from NYP-PVD, it could cost you $89 - and you would earn 178 AGR points. Amtrak would earn $89 from you. But if you wanted to maximize your point earning, you could buy a ticket from NYP to BOS and earn 500 AGR points! This is because NYP-BOS is a Select City Pair, but NYP-PVD is not. You can get off in PVD, but would you feel wrong, because *YOU* provided Amtrak with $4 more than they should have received? :huh:


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## MJL (Mar 1, 2010)

OK, another newbie question. Let's say I get off at Portland, and don't board the Empire Builder. At what point will they be able offer the bedroom / family bedroom as an upgrade, to another passenger(s)? After they are ready to pull out, and I have not submitted my ticket?


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## the_traveler (Mar 1, 2010)

MJL said:


> OK, another newbie question. Let's say I get off at Portland, and don't board the Empire Builder. At what point will they be able offer the bedroom / family bedroom as an upgrade, to another passenger(s)? After they are ready to pull out, and I have not submitted my ticket?


Normally they wait 1 or 2 stations, since it's possible that someone could miss the train, and decide to board at the next station.

An example in your case is Portland and Vancouver, WA. They are just across the Columbia River from each other. An example around me is Kingston, RI and Westerly, RI. It is only IIRC 12 minutes from KIN to WLY by train. From my house, it takes about 15 minutes to drive to either.


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## amamba (Mar 1, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> To further state what ceblack just said, and it pertains to you living on PVD.
> If you were to take Acela from NYP-PVD, it could cost you $89 - and you would earn 178 AGR points. Amtrak would earn $89 from you. But if you wanted to maximize your point earning, you could buy a ticket from NYP to BOS and earn 500 AGR points! This is because NYP-BOS is a Select City Pair, but NYP-PVD is not. You can get off in PVD, but would you feel wrong, because *YOU* provided Amtrak with $4 more than they should have received? :huh:


Completely different scenario in BOTH of those cases (BOS - WAS vs BOS - BAL or BOS - NYP vs. PVD - NYP). In both of these scenarios, you are paying amtrak money for the seat - and it sounds like you are paying more for the privilege of getting the additional points.

In this scenario originally listed by the OP, he is paying SIGNIFICANTLY less points for a seat (10,000 less) then if he booked the regular way. If OP wanted to pay more points and then get off early, I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is he is specifically cheating the system by booking a one zone reward when he clearly wants to go from one zone to a second zone. Again, I don't have a problem with legitimate loopholes when one is starting and ending at the same zone.

I am still not seeing any scenarios that you have provided that are even remotely similar to what the op is proposing, so I think we will have to go back to agreeing to disagree. Again, I just find it interesting that someone who proposed to use a coupon code that they found online (but perhaps doesn't necessarily apply to them) gets flamed to high heaven, but this action, which is completely gaming the system in my opinion, seems to be condoned by the forum. I am just trying to politely say that I think this is an ethically questionable booking.


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## the_traveler (Mar 1, 2010)

I agree that we can agree to disagree. Here's my last post, and it is a personal experience which is similar.

I frequently travel from KIN to PDX. If I go directly in a bedroom, it is a 3 zone award that costs 50,000 points, - and may go thru WAS. I instead get a 1 zone coach award (yes, it does include  an overnight) to ATL, buy a <$30 ticket to BHM, and then redeem a 2 zone bedroom award to PDX. This carries me from BHM to WAS on the *SAME* tracks that I traveled a few hours before. However, there is a difference!

Besides riding over 1,000 miles further, by doing this I only spend 35,500 points! So by riding more trains, I *HONESTLY* give Amtrak 14,500 *LESS* AGR points! So should I feel I did something wrong? :huh:

I did nothing wrong. I redeemed 3 zones worth of travel.


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## AlanB (Mar 1, 2010)

amamba said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > To further state what ceblack just said, and it pertains to you living on PVD.
> ...


If we were to look at history, it would seem that Amtrak agrees with you Amamba. What many here call the Slidell loophole at one time was thought of more as the Atlanta loophole. Atlanta is right on the dividing line between the east zone and the central zone. So booking Atlanta to say LA would route you via DC & Chicago, covering 3 zones, but only charging you 2 zones.

I saw reports and posts of people booking such a trip and just throwing away the Atlanta to DC tickets.

Within perhaps a year or two, AGR started questioning people very heavily if they tried to book such a trip and didn't have an address that was near Atlanta. I heard that some people were turned away from reservations because they couldn't explain why they were boarding in ATL. Supposedly procedures were put into place that if you booked out of ATL and no showed that they would cancel the rest of your reservations. I do have to say that it would probably be very hard for Amtrak to do that, but perhaps they somehow figured out something.

However, one thing that I did hear that was working was if you were going the other way towards Atlanta. If you no showed on the DC to ATL leg meaning that your ticket was never collected, AGR would follow up and charge your account for the 3 zone award instead of the 2 zone award.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 1, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> I agree that we can agree to disagree. Here's my last post, and it is a personal experience which is similar.
> I frequently travel from KIN to PDX. If I go directly in a bedroom, it is a 3 zone award that costs 50,000 points, - and may go thru WAS. I instead get a 1 zone coach award (yes, it does include  an overnight) to ATL, buy a <$30 ticket to BHM, and then redeem a 2 zone bedroom award to PDX. This carries me from BHM to WAS on the *SAME* tracks that I traveled a few hours before. However, there is a difference!
> 
> Besides riding over 1,000 miles further, by doing this I only spend 35,500 points! So by riding more trains, I *HONESTLY* give Amtrak 14,500 *LESS* AGR points! So should I feel I did something wrong? :huh:
> ...


You did nothing wrong. It is simply taking advantage of a government run transportation provider which is totally inept as a business. The "loopholes" are classics. So is offering full inventory for awards. I think of examples like that every time I hear someone say that Amtrak deserved more money. But, the rules are the rules, and until Amtrak gets some smarts, go for it.

But, I do have a problem with booking a segment like Portland to Wolf Point in order to reduce the points required for a trip, then no-showing the segment. When the segment is no-showed, the rules have been broken. You have not travelled to Wolf Point. You have travelled to Portland. It is breaking the rules: aka, cheating. It is the same as a "hidden city" reservation in air travel. Doesn't make sense? So what? Do the loopholes make sense? This is not like booking an extra 40 miles on the NEC to get more AGR points. This is throwing away an entire segment of several hundred miles. It is likely blocking sale of a room for the entire 2000 miles. A booking is made for multiple segments. You are expected to ride all the segments. Ride the all the segments: fine. No-show a segment: it's cheating.


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## AG1 (Mar 1, 2010)

When you book your trip tell AGR you want to change from sleeper to coach at Portland for the leg to Wolf Point.AGR will ticket that segment as coach.This will make the sleeper available for resale. You can then *miss* the train to Wolf Point and the conductor won't care if a coach passenger is late. Amtrak comes out ahead and you get to do what you wanted.Is everybody happy?


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## RRrich (Mar 1, 2010)

Well its pretty clear that there is a difference of opinion - if you think its wrong, don't do it.

If you think its OK, do it.

You are responsible for yourself - you heard a bunch of arguments - now you should be able to make an informed decision.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 1, 2010)

There are two issues. Is it OK? It is within the rules?

You can probably rationalize that doing a hidden city booking is OK to save money or, in this case, points. Particularly, if it can be done such that no one gets blocked from a real booking and Amtrak's revenue loss is minimal, you can probably argue no-harm, no foul. It's is done all the time in air travel, and sometimes can save a bundle.

But, is it within the rules? That's pretty easy to determine. If you have to fib to get what you want, that is a dead giveaway that you are doing something that is not legit. Try this. Call AGR. Tell them you really only want to travel to Portland, that you have no desire or intention of going to Wolf Point, but you want to book to Wolf Point anyway so a two-zone trip only costs one-zone points. I'm betting that doesn't work. So, hidden city is against the rules, whether that makes sense or not.

If Amtrak starts to see a surge in no-shows that can be tied to AGR hidden city schemes, even the less than savvy people running AGR will start to take notice. They finally did it with people booking multiple segments on the same train to maximize 100-point minimum earnings. If things get out of hand, eventually they will do with this game as well. But, until that day arrives, if you feel OK busting a rule or two for personal benefit, then go ahead. I've been known to drive 65 in a 55 zone, so who am I to talk.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 1, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> There are two issues. Is it OK? It is within the rules?
> You can probably rationalize that doing a hidden city booking is OK to save money or, in this case, points. Particularly, if it can be done such that no one gets blocked from a real booking and Amtrak's revenue loss is minimal, you can probably argue no-harm, no foul. It's is done all the time in air travel, and sometimes can save a bundle.
> 
> But, is it within the rules? That's pretty easy to determine. If you have to fib to get what you want, that is a dead giveaway that you are doing something that is not legit. Try this. Call AGR. Tell them you really only want to travel to Portland, that you have no desire or intention of going to Wolf Point, but you want to book to Wolf Point anyway so a two-zone trip only costs one-zone points. I'm betting that doesn't work. So, hidden city is against the rules, whether that makes sense or not.
> ...


I'd agree with most of what you write except that I don't think that booking a bedroom out of Portland that you're not going to use really is a no-harm, no-foul situation. That's a very crowded sleeper, especially in the summer, so demand is high. I'd be willing to bet that the bedroom will not be resold, and someone who would have been happy to pay to travel in it will be in coach (or on a plane).

1st the conductor has to decide that the bedroom's occupants are no-shows.

2nd the conductor has to decide he or she wants to resell the bedroom (remember that some conductors don't like to do en-route upgrades in any case).

3rd someone has to ask for the upgrade. It isn't as though they announce that sleeper compartments are available, at least in my experience.

It ain't going to happen.

I wouldn't do MLJ's scheme for the same reason I pay 30k points to go from Minot to Washington, rather than 20k points for a Minot-Washington-Atlanta trip. I don't like to lie, and I hate to take away a scarce bedroom from some other train enthusiast who wants to ride the Crescent.


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## AG1 (Mar 1, 2010)

Please read Post #22 above.

AGR will ticket coach on a segment of a zone bedroom trip. The bedroom will not be taken out of inventory for that segment and is always available for advance booking by anyone. Yes, I have done this with no problems.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 2, 2010)

I'll add one more rant, then return to the more mundane issues of life.

AGR is a really great deal for those who enjoy rail travel. It is not that hard to amass 30,000 points through rail travel, credit card use, hotels, and the like. Those 30,000 points can get you a two or even three night trip in a Bedroom that has a value of over $1000, sometimes way over $1000. There are no capacity controls, so you can grab the very last Bedroom off the train - a room that would have sold at the highest bucket. Try using airline miles to grab the last First Class seat on a trans-Pacific flight sometime and see how that works.

Given that, it bothers me that it is then desired to find some way to scam AGR (and Amtrak) to make a great deal even better: to turn what is, in fact, a two-zone trip into a one-zone trip by booking a fake segment. If the desire is to travel to Portland, then I say, ante up the points to travel to Portland and appreciate what a nice benefit AGR is for Amtrak fans.


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## Ryan (Mar 2, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> I'll add one more rant, then return to the more mundane issues of life.
> AGR is a really great deal for those who enjoy rail travel. It is not that hard to amass 30,000 points through rail travel, credit card use, hotels, and the like. Those 30,000 points can get you a two or even three night trip in a Bedroom that has a value of over $1000, sometimes way over $1000. There are no capacity controls, so you can grab the very last Bedroom off the train - a room that would have sold at the highest bucket. Try using airline miles to grab the last First Class seat on a trans-Pacific flight sometime and see how that works.
> 
> Given that, it bothers me that it is then desired to find some way to scam AGR (and Amtrak) to make a great deal even better: to turn what is, in fact, a two-zone trip into a one-zone trip by booking a fake segment. If the desire is to travel to Portland, then I say, ante up the points to travel to Portland and appreciate what a nice benefit AGR is for Amtrak fans.


I couldn't agree with this more. If you want to do something crazy like the_traveler and go from KIN-PDX by way of Atlanta, *and actually ride all of those segments*, then go for it (I sure would). But, no-showing on a segment crosses the line in my personal book. If it were just that, I'd say "let your conscience be your guide", but the risk of it screwing up what is a really good deal for the rest of us pushes me even farther over the fence - do it right, or don't do it at all.


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## amamba (Mar 2, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> I agree that we can agree to disagree. Here's my last post, and it is a personal experience which is similar.
> I frequently travel from KIN to PDX. If I go directly in a bedroom, it is a 3 zone award that costs 50,000 points, - and may go thru WAS. I instead get a 1 zone coach award (yes, it does include  an overnight) to ATL, buy a <$30 ticket to BHM, and then redeem a 2 zone bedroom award to PDX. This carries me from BHM to WAS on the *SAME* tracks that I traveled a few hours before. However, there is a difference!
> 
> Besides riding over 1,000 miles further, by doing this I only spend 35,500 points! So by riding more trains, I *HONESTLY* give Amtrak 14,500 *LESS* AGR points! So should I feel I did something wrong? :huh:
> ...


But you are riding all of the segments that you are ticketed for. That is still different then booking a ticket to someplace and then only using halfway to take advantage of a loophole.


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## ceblack (Mar 2, 2010)

Sorry to chime in once more... but I'd like to present another hypothetical situation:

What if I paid cash for the tickets? If I pay $2975 for my family of four for two roomettes from Kansas City to Los Angeles (via Southwest Chief) to Portland (via Coast Starlight) to Wolf Point (via Empire Builder), and we get off the train in Portland and never board the Builder, and do NOT seek any type of refund or compensation for the Builder portion of the trip that we did not use ($865 worth)... have I done anything wrong? Stupid, most certainly... but wrong?

I don't think I've wronged Amtrak. They received full compensation for all portions of the trip, whether used or unused.

_Going back to the AGR loophole scenario, this is where I restate that POINTS EQUALS CASH. If I pay points for the roomettes I have paid full asking price, the same as cash. Amtrak and/or AGR have stated that 30,000 AGR points (2 1-zone roomettes) is equivalent to $2975. Of course they have also stated that 40,000 AGR points (2 2-zone roomettes) is worth $2110 (for tickets to Portland) or perhaps only $1412 (if I purchase tickets to Los Angeles). At this point, I am just being a smart consumer by getting the most value for my currency (points, in this case)._

Now, you could argue that I have wronged the "train traveling public" by denying them access to two roomettes on a capacity-limited section of one of Amtrak's nicest trains. I would tend to agree, although I feel that is a pretty slight wrong. They had the same opportunity to reserve the trip. First come, first served. Tour companies do much the same thing, booking up large numbers of sleepers on primo Amtrak routes making it difficult and/or extremely expensive for others to book trips. True, they release unused compartments before the travel date, but that is generally long after those of us who work for a living and actually have to plan ahead for our time off can use them.

_Again, back to the AGR loophole scenario, this is where I would try to book the last leg of the trip in coach. If you do that, I think you've minimized the "wrong" to the rest of the train traveling public. I would feel comfortable doing this._


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## Ryan (Mar 2, 2010)

Completely different. In one case, you're spending more currency for the extra leg, in the other you're spending less currency. By taking the bailout, you're not giving Amtrak what they're asking for to travel from KCY-PDX. The fact that you can go farther for cheaper is irrelevant.


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## ceblack (Mar 2, 2010)

Welcome aboard AMTRAK's "Analogy Express"! Nothing is finer than breakfast in the Diner!

Today's menu:

AmMeal #1 -- 2 Eggs, Orange Juice . . . . . . . . . . . . . $5.00

AmMeal #2 -- 2 Eggs, 2 Pancakes, Orange Juice . . . . $4.00

You want 2 Eggs and Orange Juice. Do you:

a. Order AmMeal #1.

b. Order AmMeal #2, and leave the pancakes uneaten.

c. Order AmMeal #2, and end up eating the pancakes because you can't stand to leave food you've paid for uneaten.

d. Order AmMeal #2, leave the pancakes uneaten, and hand them to the waiter as you leave, saying "Sir, there will be no money for a tip, but breakfast is on me!"

(In all honesty, I would probably choose c).


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## Ryan (Mar 2, 2010)

If enough people chose "B", then it would be perfectly reasonable for Amtrak to raise the price of AmMeal#2 to $6.00. Most of us have a vested interest in keeping AGR just as it is, so "B" is a pretty crappy option to choose for long term happiness of the group. But, as usually happens, people will get too greedy and ruin if for the rest of us.


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