# What electric fleet will GO Transit use when they electrify?



## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Feb 19, 2020)

GO Transit has announced to electrify the Lakeshore West line between Union Station and Burlington, the Kitchener line between Union Station and Bramalea (including the Union Pearson Express), and the Lakeshore East, Barrie and Stoufville lines in their entirety.

Given that they plan on buying bilevel EMUs as well as electric locomotives to haul the current fleet, I expect them to use the Stadler KISS USA (the same variety as the one Caltrain is going to use) as its choice for EMUs as it has both high and low platform doors (and thus can operate on the Union Pearson Express line in addition to regular lines), and the ACS-64 for its choice of electric locomotives. This will also enable GO to retire the last F59PHs and the Series I-V bi level coaches and cab cars, which date to the 1970s and 1980s. Given the large number (322 coaches and 41 cab cars) to be retired and that GO will operate its EMUs in 4 car consists, GO can buy 40 4-car EMU sets (160) and 200 brand new bilevel coaches and cab cars (these will be called Series X)

At the same time, GO can start transitioning from the current low level platforms to high level platforms (at least on the electrified tracks) similar to Caltrain. GO's existing bilevel coaches that won't be retired will be sent to Alstom (as they'll be buying Bombardier's rail assets) to be modified to have high level doors.


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## jiml (Feb 19, 2020)

They will start by buying electric locomotives to pull the current fleet. Although EMU's have been mentioned several times, most observers dismiss this as wishful thinking. Currently Lakeshore trains are 10-12 bi-levels long and run every 15-20 minutes, carrying up to 2K passengers each. The capital investment to replace all that with EMU's of any type is beyond the scope of any practical budget, and the Province of Ontario is broke. The Stouffville line is fairly light use, with 7-car consists and limited service outside rush hours, so an ideal spot for EMU's - but diesel, since electrifying that route makes no sense for the same reasons (lighter use, rush hour service). Metrolinx - the overseeing transit agency - says a lot of things, but seldom follows through. One of the current government's objectives was to cut them down to size and reality.


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## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Feb 19, 2020)

jiml said:


> The Stouffville line is fairly light use, with 7-car consists and limited service outside rush hours, so an ideal spot for EMU's - but diesel, since electrifying that route makes no sense for the same reasons (lighter use, rush hour service).



They could just order more Nippon Sharyo DMUs


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## jiml (Feb 19, 2020)

NeueAmtrakCalifornia said:


> They could just order more Nippon Sharyo DMUs


Which are really nice units and fairly low-emission. They have been great on the airport express trains. 

Do you have a link to where you found this latest info?


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## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Feb 19, 2020)

jiml said:


> Do you have a link to where you found this latest info?



This about fleet replacement (though I will say the Series I-V railcars are in due need for a replacement given their age)?

Meanwhile if GO's gonna buy electric locomotives, they're just gonna buy ACS-64s


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## jiml (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm not as up-to-date as I used to be on the individual series. Several of the early cars have had major overhauls and are actually nicer inside than some of the newer ones. The mid series (2300-2500 numbers IIRC) are a little rough and in need of a refurb. A bunch of the 2000 series were also shipped south somewhere in the last year (Florida maybe?) and there were several F59PH's still in GO paint in LA commuter service last September, including 4 or 5 parked in the yard near LAUS. I think the rest are in Montreal, with only a couple still in Toronto service.


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## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Feb 19, 2020)

jiml said:


> I'm not as up-to-date as I used to be on the individual series. Several of the early cars have had major overhauls and are actually nicer inside than some of the newer ones. The mid series (2300-2500 numbers IIRC) are a little rough and in need of a refurb. A bunch of the 2000 series were also shipped south somewhere in the last year (Florida maybe?)



It was Florida

That said, the F59PHs are going to be the first to go once GO Transit orders its electric locomotives


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## jiml (Feb 19, 2020)

That's too bad; I quite like them. As a matter of fact, here's one at Glendale.


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## jis (Feb 20, 2020)

First the lines have to be electrified. Since Canada is not India or China where they would probably knock the whole thing out in a year, it will possibly take several years. It is only then that they can start using electric anything.


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## jiml (Feb 20, 2020)

jis said:


> First the lines have to be electrified. Since Canada is not India or China where they would probably knock the whole thing out in a year, it will possibly take several years. It is only then that they can start using electric anything.


It's taken them 4 years of study just to agree on a route for the eastern GO extension and there are still no shovels in the ground.


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## jis (Feb 21, 2020)

To give you an example I had noticed in late 2018 that a 400km long line had got budget approval for electrification in India in the 2019 budget. 

This year (2020 January) I happened to visit that relatively unpopulated rural area a few weeks back and was absolutely astounded to see that the electrification work was done and the Railway Safety Commissioner was in the process of completing certification for commercial operation. The necessary test runs had been completed!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 21, 2020)

So the moral is: Modi will get it done? 

Recently drove by the shuttered Nippon-Sharyo plant out in Rochell, please order something so they come back to Illinois...


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## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Feb 21, 2020)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> So the moral is: Modi will get it done?
> 
> Recently drove by the shuttered Nippon-Sharyo plant out in Rochell, please order something so they come back to Illinois...



Theyre being built back in Nagoya now


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 21, 2020)

NeueAmtrakCalifornia said:


> Theyre being built back in Nagoya now



But that does us no good in Illinois....


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## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Feb 21, 2020)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> But that does us no good in Illinois....



You can thank them having done goof with the bilevel calidots


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 21, 2020)

NeueAmtrakCalifornia said:


> You can thank them having done goof with the bilevel calidots



ALL too aware of that fiasco, but they could still be building Metra rolling stock.


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## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Feb 21, 2020)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> ALL too aware of that fiasco, but they could still be building Metra rolling stock.



It seriously torpedoed their reputation. Also worth noting that if Metra (as well as NICTD) wants a new EMU they're gonna have to find a new manufacturer.


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## west point (Feb 21, 2020)

There is a real problem how rolling stock equipment is ordered here in the North American market. Everyone is buying equipment tailored to just their operation. Another problem is the batch ordering of equipment then nothing. The result is loss of manufacturing capacity and knowledge. So will North America end up in ten years with no builders like what happened when Pullman and Budd both went out of business ? Then you have an agency(s) with all worn out equipment and no builder

Hopefully Go transit can string out their orders till they have to order same amount equipment for 100 years. The same way needs to apply to Amtrak. The previously posted fleet plan of Amtrak had the notion that 100 - 120 cars a year is the minimum number needed to get good prices. 

Amtrak ordering all those Chargers now is probably going to be a problem 20 - 25 years down the road just like it is now with the P-42s ?


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## jis (Feb 22, 2020)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> So the moral is: Modi will get it done?



Nothing to do with Modi. Indian Railways generally has been very efficient with electrification once money is appropriated for a project.


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## sttom (Mar 10, 2020)

The simple answer is they're going to go with who ever gives them the best deal, whenever that is. 

And yes there are issues with procuring rail equipment since we do it in fits and starts in North America. But until we put billions into rail consistently, we won't have companies that can produce equipment on a consistent basis domestically.


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