# Amtrak vs Via Rail Toronto to Vancouver



## CTANut (Dec 23, 2020)

I looked this up a while back, but if I attempt to book Toronto to Vancouver through Amtrak instead of Via Rail, Amtrak is $1000 vs $2500. 
I had to book it as a multi city trip, from Toronto-Buffalo-Vancouver. I wonder why this is the case, when both are do roomettes on the long distance routes, and Business class on the Cascades.


----------



## Trogdor (Dec 23, 2020)

VIA Rail is an entirely different experience to Amtrak. VIA Rail's Canadian, in a sleeper, is effectively a land cruise. Amtrak is closer to basic transportation.


----------



## Rasputin (Dec 23, 2020)

VIA is not operating (except occasionally between Vancouver and Winnipeg) so Amtrak wins.


----------



## jis (Dec 23, 2020)

And of course it is kinda difficult to cross the border for the time being. At present there is no Amtrak service from Toronto to Buffalo and north of Everett WA.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Dec 23, 2020)

CTANut said:


> I looked this up a while back, but if I attempt to book Toronto to Vancouver through Amtrak instead of Via Rail, Amtrak is $1000 vs $2500.



A totally different experience (late trains aside!!) A classic Stainless Steel Streamliner with Domes, Round-end Observation and fine dining. 

The Canadian is currently operating between Winnipeg and Vancouver and only once a week. You have to remain in your room except for Breakfast and Supper (Lunch is delivered to your room) and there in NO access to the Dome Car.

Wait 'till full service returns and you might be able to find a deal. I've been on the Canadian numerous times and have never paid full-fare.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> VIA Rail is an entirely different experience to Amtrak. VIA Rail's Canadian, in a sleeper, is effectively a land cruise. Amtrak is closer to basic transportation.



Eh... they really aren’t as different as most people claim imho. Now if the flex dining stays on the western trains that adds a considerable difference.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2020)

CTANut said:


> I looked this up a while back, but if I attempt to book Toronto to Vancouver through Amtrak instead of Via Rail, Amtrak is $1000 vs $2500.
> I had to book it as a multi city trip, from Toronto-Buffalo-Vancouver. I wonder why this is the case, when both are do roomettes on the long distance routes, and Business class on the Cascades.



You can get VIA for less than $2500. Just like Amtrak you have to search for the deals.


----------



## joelkfla (Dec 23, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Eh... they really aren’t as different as most people claim imho. Now if the flex dining stays on the western trains that adds a considerable difference.


Have to disagree. It's been 3 years since I took a full-route winter trip on the Canadian, but it had food that certainly seemed fresh cooked, a different menu every night with regional specialties, a "traveling artist" (in my case, a country-folk singer with a guitar accompanist) who did afternoon and evening shows in the domes and Park lounge, a welcoming champagne reception, and an ever-present selection of teas, coffee, and cookies.

And of course the domes were the highlight of the trip. An Amtrak Sightseer Lounge is nice, but to sit facing forward with a 360-degree view over the top of the train is a whole different experience.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> Have to disagree. It's been 3 years since I took a full-route winter trip on the Canadian, but it had food that certainly seemed fresh cooked, a different menu every night with regional specialties, a "traveling artist" (in my case, a country-folk singer with a guitar accompanist) who did afternoon and evening shows in the domes and Park lounge, a welcoming champagne reception, and an ever-present selection of teas, coffee, and cookies.
> 
> And of course the domes were the highlight of the trip. An Amtrak Sightseer Lounge is nice, but to sit facing forward with a 360-degree view over the top of the train is a whole different experience.



Well to be fair when I took the Canadian on a big circle rail trip of North America Amtrak was at its best. At that time I thought the food and extras on the coast starlight was better than the Canadian (I took them back to back). On the Coast Starlight I was given a real bottle of California Champagne when boarding vs a plastic shot glass on the Canadian. 

So in my mind I’m comparing 2 more comparable products.


----------



## tricia (Dec 23, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well to be fair when I took the Canadian on a big circle rail trip of North America Amtrak was at its best. At that time I thought the food and extras on the coast starlight was better than the Canadian (I took them back to back). On the Coast Starlight I was given a real bottle of California Champagne when boarding vs a plastic shot glass on the Canadian.
> 
> So in my mind I’m comparing 2 more comparable products.



Comparable at the time perhaps, but one of those products has been downgraded a heckuva lot since then.


----------



## jiml (Dec 23, 2020)

Service is not yet back to normal on the recently-restored Canadian. Lunch is a choice of sandwiches served in your room and the dinner menu is shown below and doesn't vary day to day. One report said these are pre-prepared meals reheated onboard. (If they're as decent as the ones on the Ocean pre-suspension, then they'll be fine - just not the usual.)

Dinner
Beef pot roast
Tender pot roast served with
vegetables and Chef’s choice
of accompaniment.
Citrus glazed salmon
Baked salmon served with vegetables
and Chef’s choice of accompaniment.
Vegetarian chili
Mild chili serve with vegetables and
Chef’s choice of accompaniment.
VIA Rail accepts most major credit cards.
Consumption of personal alcoholic beverages on these premises
is prohibited by law. Some menu items may
contain nuts or traces of peanuts.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2020)

tricia said:


> Comparable at the time perhaps, but one of those products has been downgraded a heckuva lot since then.



Agreed. Although even on my last trip on a Parlour Car the Lamb Shank would still beat out anything I had on the Canadian! 

That would have been beginning of 2018 I think? 

Sure the Starlight has lost its parlour car, but the Canadian has come pretty close to losing the park car for standard sleeping car passengers as well. 

I’m not arguing the Canadian is great, I’m just saying I don’t find them to be “entirely different experiences.”


----------



## Seaboard92 (Dec 23, 2020)

Nothing beats that night coming into Winnipeg going eastbound. Duck or Prime Rib. You can't go wrong either way


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> Nothing beats that night coming into Winnipeg going eastbound. Duck or Prime Rib. You can't go wrong either way



I had the duck. Photo or it didn’t happen!


----------



## joelkfla (Dec 23, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Sure the Starlight has lost its parlour car, but the Canadian has come pretty close to losing the park car for standard sleeping car passengers as well.


That's one advantage of winter travel: unrestricted Park car access. (At least it was 3 years ago.) And I like snow -- but I like it much more looking at it from a nice warm dome car than being out in it. (I used to like being out in it, but nowadays I have trouble staying upright.)


----------



## jiml (Dec 23, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Agreed. Although even on my last trip on a Parlour Car the Lamb Shank would still beat out anything I had on the Canadian!


----------



## jiml (Dec 23, 2020)

So many good things on the PPC.


----------



## jiml (Dec 23, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> Nothing beats that night coming into Winnipeg going eastbound. Duck or Prime Rib. You can't go wrong either way


I was a big fan of the Prime Rib, but we should remember Amtrak doing a great Prime Rib on single-level diners. (Never had it on a Superliner.)


----------



## IndyLions (Dec 23, 2020)

jiml said:


> I was a big fan of the Prime Rib, but we should remember Amtrak doing a great Prime Rib on single-level diners. (Never had it on a Superliner.)



Back in the 90s on my first Superliner trip - the New York Strip was outstanding!


----------



## jiml (Dec 23, 2020)

As recently as two summers ago Amtrak steaks were still surprisingly good.


----------



## Palmetto (Dec 24, 2020)

tricia said:


> Comparable at the time perhaps, but one of those products has been downgraded a heckuva lot since then.



Actually, BOTH products have been downgraded these days. Gone are the lamb chops and prime rib, for instance, on VIA 1/2, and there's no access to any domes. Too bad.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Dec 24, 2020)

jiml said:


> Service is not yet back to normal on the recently-restored Canadian. Lunch is a choice of sandwiches served in your room and the dinner menu is shown below and doesn't vary day to day. One report said these are pre-prepared meals reheated onboard. (If they're as decent as the ones on the Ocean pre-suspension, then they'll be fine - just not the usual.)
> 
> Dinner
> Beef pot roast
> ...


Still sounds MUCH Better than the Amtrak offerings!


----------



## joelkfla (Dec 24, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> Actually, BOTH products have been downgraded these days. Gone are the lamb chops and prime rib, for instance, on VIA 1/2, and there's no access to any domes. Too bad.


But the comparison was pre-COVID. If both return to the state they were in just prior to the pandemic, VIA holds the clear advantage.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 24, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> But the comparison was pre-COVID. If both return to the state they were in just prior to the pandemic, VIA holds the clear advantage.



Sure, but they aren’t “entirely different experiences” - they are pretty much identical experiences just VIA is a little better but you pay for it.


----------



## Trogdor (Dec 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Sure, but they aren’t “entirely different experiences” - they are pretty much identical experiences just VIA is a little better but you pay for it.



Pre-COVID:

VIA - real china, cloth table linens
Amtrak - plastic plates and paper table “cloths”

VIA - Different menu for every meal 
Amtrak - Same menu for every meal (often the same in both directions, and across multiple trains)

VIA - Complimentary alcohol (for sleeper passengers) with the meal
Amtrak - one free can of soda. Alcohol extra (wine tastings had been discontinued before COVID)

VIA - Appetizers, snacks, drinks distributed to sleeper passengers between meals.
Amtrak - Feel free to visit the cafe car and buy a shrink-wrapped brownie or a can of Budweiser.

I suppose the quality of the food itself served in the diner is subjective. I’ve only done a couple of trips on the Canadian (one Edmonton-Vancouver, one Vancouver-Toronto), but it my impression was that the food was better (not sure if it was the selection, or if I just got lucky). Amtrak diner food in recent years has felt like Denny’s, at best. Maybe the main course was good, but Amtrak’s pre-meal salad has been sad for a while, and the side vegetables were okay, at best.

VIA - exclusive dome cars for sleeper passengers (sometimes multiple cars, depending on load)
Amtrak - sightseer lounge free-for-all. Eastern trains, there’s the sleeper lounge (Viewliner diner), but significant food downgrade. Prior to the food downgrade, your “lounge” was an Amfleet II cafe car.

But other than all of that, probably identical.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 24, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> often the same in both directions, and across multiple trains)



Well VIA only has one train with this type of service, so across multiple trains isn’t a fair comparison. 



Trogdor said:


> VIA - Complimentary alcohol (for sleeper passengers) with the meal



This wasn’t the case when I rode VIA, and I don’t think it’s accurate but I don’t know 100%. 



Trogdor said:


> VIA - Appetizers, snacks, drinks distributed to sleeper passengers between meals.
> Amtrak - Feel free to visit the cafe car and buy a shrink-wrapped brownie or a can of Budweiser.



When I rode VIA the park car had a plate of shrink-Wrapped snacks and a basket of fruit out. Twice they distributed some plastic shots of champagne.



Trogdor said:


> VIA - exclusive dome cars for sleeper passengers (sometimes multiple cars, depending on load)
> Amtrak - sightseer lounge free-for-all.



This doesn’t really change the amenities, on VIA the domes are just as crowded as the SSL on Amtrak in my experience. A crowded observation car is a crowded observation car no matter the class of passengers. 

Note - I’m not saying VIA isn’t a good experience, I loved it. You also left out the bedding which is 10 times more comfortable than Amtrak’s bedding. VIA and Amtrak both have pro’s and con’s and they both provide decent long distance passenger train experiences (pre-covid).

I just disagree that they are completely different experiences, that’s all.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Dec 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I had the duck. Photo or it didn’t happen!
> 
> View attachment 19836



I've had the Prime Rib once twice on one trip. We were so late they used the leftovers for Prime Rib Sandwiches and let me tell you those were good sandwiches. I usually don't like leftovers but I love VIA ones. I wish I had the prime rib recipe just so I could make the sandwiches the next day.


----------



## joelkfla (Dec 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Sure, but they aren’t “entirely different experiences” - they are pretty much identical experiences just VIA is a little better but you pay for it.


I used the term "whole different experience" specifically in reference to riding in a 360 degree dome compared to riding in a Sightseer Lounge. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## caravanman (Dec 24, 2020)

I very much enjoyed my trip from Toronto to Vancouver, back in 2011. I believe the Canadian to have been a much superior experience then to my many thousands of Amtrak miles ridden. 

Some pics from my trip:

Toronto to Vancouver...

My trip report:

Trip report Toronto to Vancouver 2011


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 24, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> I used the term "whole different experience" specifically in reference to riding in a 360 degree dome compared to riding in a Sightseer Lounge. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.



I do enjoy the dome cars. The park cars are very nice as well with the wrap around view out the back.


----------



## Trogdor (Dec 24, 2020)

I may have been misremembering the complimentary alcohol part. I could’ve sworn the wine was free, but I might have paid for it and just don’t remember.

The rest of my post stands, though.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 24, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> VIA Rail is an entirely different experience to Amtrak. VIA Rail's Canadian, in a sleeper, is effectively a land cruise. Amtrak is closer to basic transportation.



This is the quote I disagreed with. Rocky Mountaineer is a land cruise. The Canadian is not. When I rode the Canadian I had meals with college students returning to school and with workers returning to work. 

But that’s mostly me being picky probably. I do enjoy the Canadian.


----------



## jiml (Dec 25, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> I may have been misremembering the complimentary alcohol part. I could’ve sworn the wine was free, but I might have paid for it and just don’t remember.
> 
> The rest of my post stands, though.


There is complimentary alcohol in Prestige Class on the Canadian. It is not currently available and the only other complimentary drinks in the VIA system are in Business Class on corridor trains. Alcohol on VIA tends to be expensive and, unlike Amtrak, they don't include a "first one on us" on most trains.


----------



## jis (Dec 25, 2020)

The last time I rode the Canadian was on its last run on the three day schedule. I really don't have much desire to run on the current four day schedule, specially with the high likelihood of a half day to a day's worth of delays added on, no matter how good the food is


----------



## Seaboard92 (Dec 25, 2020)

jis said:


> The last time I rode the Canadian was on its last run on the three day schedule. I really don;t have much desire to run on the current four day schedule, specially with the high likelihood of a half day to a day's worth of delays added on, no matter how good the food is


I wonder if we were on the same train. I was on the last No. 2 on the tri weekly schedule.


----------



## 20th Century Rider (Dec 25, 2020)

tricia said:


> Comparable at the time perhaps, but one of those products has been downgraded a heckuva lot since then.


And as you know... sadly the CS Parlor car was removed... wine tasting comes with a fee [if and when they have it] and no cheese or crackers... and the dining experience was replaced with those lukewarm tasteless nasty flex meals. Of course everything is in flux with the pandemic... it will be interesting to see what eventually pans out on both sides of the boarder.


----------



## 20th Century Rider (Dec 25, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> I used the term "whole different experience" specifically in reference to riding in a 360 degree dome compared to riding in a Sightseer Lounge. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.



Agreed! The sightseer lounges on the Superliners are ok but nothing compared to the dome car. And of course the upstairs counter bar is no longer used. Also the seating can be somewhat uncomfortable as some chairs swivel and some are fixed.


----------



## Lonestar648 (Dec 26, 2020)

VIA just started a once a week truncated, extremely limited access, Canadian between Vancouver and Winnipeg. No Dome access, and no viewing from either the Skyline nor the Park cars. Sleeper Plus passengers are to stay in their rooms unless eating in the Dining Car twice per day. Menu only has three items on it and doesn’t change. Coach passengers must stay in their seats, there is a snack cart meal service for cash. The trip doesn’t sound like fun. Of course, the border is still closed I think to tourists, so mute point for US residents.


----------



## jiml (Dec 27, 2020)

Lonestar648 said:


> VIA just started a once a week truncated, extremely limited access, Canadian between Vancouver and Winnipeg. No Dome access, and no viewing from either the Skyline nor the Park cars. Sleeper Plus passengers are to stay in their rooms unless eating in the Dining Car twice per day. Menu only has three items on it and doesn’t change. Coach passengers must stay in their seats, there is a snack cart meal service for cash. The trip doesn’t sound like fun. Of course, the border is still closed I think to tourists, so mute point for US residents.


That sums it up perfectly. The current menu is posted earlier in this thread. One wonders why they're even bothering to tow the dome cars, since lockdowns here have actually worsened since they restarted and show no sign of letting up anytime soon. Inter-provincial travel is certainly discouraged.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 27, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Also the seating can be somewhat uncomfortable as some chairs swivel and some are fixed.



I appreciate the variety of seats in the SSL cars vs. the standard coach or bench seats of dome cars.

Of course if you can grab the railfan window of a traditional dome... doesn’t get better than that!


----------



## Seaboard92 (Dec 27, 2020)

jiml said:


> That sums it up perfectly. The current menu is posted earlier in this thread. One wonders why they're even bothering to tow the dome cars, since lockdowns here have actually worsened since they restarted and show no sign of letting up anytime soon. Inter-provincial travel is certainly discouraged.



Coach meal service has generally been run out of the skylines so that is what I think is going on as far as that. 

Then again they are still towing it to Churchill and they aren't offering any coach service. And a sleeper for the crew is being towed along as well.


----------



## mlanoue (Dec 28, 2020)

What about scenery? I love the views of Glacier NP, the Cascades, the the Columbia Gorge, but the pictures I've seen make me think The Canadian is a whole different level of scenery. Is that true?


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 28, 2020)

mlanoue said:


> What about scenery? I love the views of Glacier NP, the Cascades, the the Columbia Gorge, but the pictures I've seen make me think The Canadian is a whole different level of scenery. Is that true?



In my opinion, the Zephyr and the Starlight beat out the Canadian for scenery. But that’s going to be very subjective.

The Empire Builder vs. The Canadian is a close call.... I’d give it to the Canadian but both are great.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Dec 28, 2020)

The Canadian has the better scenery over the Empire Builder in my opinion. Also the better equipment.


----------



## Willbridge (Dec 29, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> The Canadian has the better scenery over the Empire Builder in my opinion. Also the better equipment.


The best scenery overall on an Amtrak or VIA train was on the _Pioneer _before it was doomed by routing it through Wyoming. I have ridden all of the current transcontinental routes except for New Orleans>San Antonio and rode "the real _Canadian"_ Calgary>Vancouver and each route has its strong points. I have used the Calgary>Vancouver and Chicago>Portland routes (Trains 25/26 and 27/28) in the winter and the summer.


----------



## jis (Dec 29, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I wonder if we were on the same train. I was on the last No. 2 on the tri weekly schedule.


I don't recall exactly when it went from tri-weekly to bi-weekly. I was on the last train that ran on the three day schedule. Did the change to bi-weekly happen at the same time as when it went from three day to four day schedule?


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Dec 30, 2020)

jis said:


> I don't recall exactly when it went from tri-weekly to bi-weekly. I was on the last train that ran on the three day schedule. Did the change to bi-weekly happen at the same time as when it went from three day to four day schedule?



I know it was down to bi-weekly in the winter of 2013. The crews were grumbling about it when I rode. I really didn’t see the magical VIA crews that others rave about. Seemed like an average Amtrak crew to me. Some were really nice, others were pretty grumpy.


----------



## jiml (Dec 30, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I really didn’t see the magical VIA crews that others rave about. Seemed like an average Amtrak crew to me. Some were really nice, others were pretty grumpy.


On balance both companies have some great employees, some mediocre employees and some that should be doing something different. My last VIA1 corridor trip pre-Covid was nothing special. Outbound the steward did her best impression of some flight attendants, only getting up when someone went and asked for a refill, etc., spending most of her time on her phone while sitting with her feet up on the adjacent seat. On the return trip meals were dropped unceremoniously on the trays still in their foil cooking containers. My previous trip on the same route had been outstanding. Last year's trip on VIA's Ocean was excellent and my last Amtrak trip (eastbound Cardinal) featured a great crew, with only the meal quality lacking. Hit or miss.


----------



## fdaley (Dec 30, 2020)

jis said:


> I don't recall exactly when it went from tri-weekly to bi-weekly. I was on the last train that ran on the three day schedule. Did the change to bi-weekly happen at the same time as when it went from three day to four day schedule?



I believe the Canadian went to twice-a-week operation for the winter months starting in the fall of 2012 -- at the same time as the Ocean was cut back from six days a week to three. The plan was for the Canadian to resume three departures a week in the high season, from May to October, and that happened for a few summers, although I believe the season got shorter over time. Then one year when CN freight congestion was causing more and more extreme delays, the third departure never resumed for the summer, and VIA began lengthening the schedule. However, I think it was already a four-night schedule for several years before the 2012 cuts.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Dec 31, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> I may have been misremembering the complimentary alcohol part. I could’ve sworn the wine was free, but I might have paid for it and just don’t remember.


If you keep drinking long enough the booze goes from expensive to cheap to paying you back again.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Dec 31, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> I may have been misremembering the complimentary alcohol part. I could’ve sworn the wine was free, but I might have paid for it and just don’t remember.



On my Canadian trips...there's been complementary Champagne and Hor dourves departing Toronto, Winnipeg, Jasper and Vancouver. Also complementary Wine Tasting on a couple of afternoons. I've also been offered Mimosas at Brunch.

Here's Marilyn (one of VIA's finest!) conducting a Wine Tasting as we're heading west near the Manitoba-Saskatchewan border.


----------



## Everydaymatters (Dec 31, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> The Canadian has the better scenery over the Empire Builder in my opinion. Also the better equipment.


I felt that the scenery on the CZ was better than Via. On Via, the train traversed between the mountains. On the CZ you were actually _in_ the mountains.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Dec 31, 2020)

We used to have polls asking folks which route, scenery, and food they liked best. Remember those? My favorite route is the Coast Starlight but I also enjoy the Zephyr, Canadian, and Chief. The Starlight may not have the highest highs so to speak but the scenery is quite varied and never dips below interesting. I think that's why I like it so much.


----------



## jiml (Dec 31, 2020)

Everydaymatters said:


> I felt that the scenery on the CZ was better than Via. On Via, the train traversed between the mountains. On the CZ you were actually _in_ the mountains.


The problem was the reroute of the Canadian some years ago to the less scenic CN northern route. It's nice enough and on-par with some of Amtrak's routes, but cannot compete with the Zephyr in Colorado and Utah. The previous CP route, on the other hand, stands with the best in the world. Now one has use the Rocky Mountaineer at significantly higher cost to see the original route.


----------



## Rasputin (Dec 31, 2020)

jiml said:


> The problem was the reroute of the Canadian some years ago to the less scenic CN northern route. It's nice enough and on-par with some of Amtrak's routes, but cannot compete with the Zephyr in Colorado and Utah. The previous CP route, on the other hand, stands with the best in the world. Now one has use the Rocky Mountaineer at significantly higher cost to see the original route.


The CP Canadian vs. the California Zephyr was definitely a close call in my opinion.


----------



## railiner (Dec 31, 2020)

The CP Canadian, besides the Rockies, also had scenic running along the North shore of Lake Superior, IIRC..


----------



## railiner (Dec 31, 2020)

Another plus for the CP Canadian, was part of it went all the way to Montreal, allowing easy connection to the Maritimes.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Dec 31, 2020)

railiner said:


> Another plus for the CP Canadian, was part of it went all the way to Montreal, allowing easy connection to the Maritimes.



Back in the day......up until the mid 60's on CP you had the Canadian and also the Dominion to Vancouver and each with separate Montreal and Toronto sections that came together or split at Sudbury.

And over on CN......there were the Super Continental and the Panorama.....also with separate Montreal and Toronto sections that came together or split at Capreol (just north of Sudbury)

Four Transcontinental trains each way daily across the country!! 

At Montreal on CP you could reach the Maritimes on the Atlantic Limited to Saint John and on CN......you could connect to/from Halifax on either the Ocean Limited or Scotian.


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

jiml said:


> The problem was the reroute of the Canadian some years ago to the less scenic CN northern route. It's nice enough and on-par with some of Amtrak's routes, but cannot compete with the Zephyr in Colorado and Utah. The previous CP route, on the other hand, stands with the best in the world. Now one has use the Rocky Mountaineer at significantly higher cost to see the original route.


Well, I was looking for someones opinion on the CZ through the rockies vs the Canadian, and I have found my answer! Thanks


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> Well, I was looking for someones opinion on the CZ through the rockies vs the Canadian, and I have found my answer! Thanks



The actual stretch through the Rockies and Jasper on the Canadian is great. But it’s a very small part of a long train ride across Canada. The Zephyr has the Rockies, and then Canyons, and then the Sierras.


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The actual stretch through the Rockies and Jasper on the Canadian is great. But it’s a very small part of a long train ride across Canada. The Zephyr has the Rockies, and then Canyons, and then the Sierras.


True. You know, I always thought the Canadian far beat Amtrak's, but I'm kinda glad it doesn't, as I dont' feel as I'm missing out on as much! 

Either way though, the Canadian is high on my bucket list...


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

And since I've probably awaken this thread again (which I'm not really sorry for), when is off/on peak seasons for the Canadian?


----------



## fdaley (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> And since I've probably awaken this thread again (which I'm not really sorry for), when is off/on peak seasons for the Canadian?



The peak season for the Canadian usually runs from May 1 through mid-October. Of course, it's not clear right now when it will resume normal operation.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Apr 7, 2021)

I felt like transition/shoulder season was best (during regular operations). Longer trains with fewer passengers leading to plenty of seating and a good staff ratio. I'm not sure when or if that will return in the future but with the Prestige exclusive Park Car rules I'd recommend first/last couple weeks of Winter when daily full route service returns.


----------



## B&Ofan (Apr 7, 2021)

Having taken several Amtrak LD trains and the Canadian I have to agree with pretty much everything said here. The VIA train is quite an amazing journy, though you do have to spring for a sleeper car (I don't think coach passengers have access to the diners). I actually think (when everything is running) that Amtrak is slightly quicker between the two cities/ Don't get me wrong I enjoy riding Amtrak but the Canadian is quite an experience and IMHO well worth the expense. Hanging out in the Park car we just wonderful (though regular sleeping passengers only had limited access it was still amazing. Here is a picture from the dome.


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

fdaley said:


> The peak season for the Canadian usually runs from May 1 through mid-October. Of course, it's not clear right now when it will resume normal operation.


Well, that would work for me. I would love to see the Rockies through snow


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> Well, that would work for me. I would love to see the Rockies through snow




My favorite time to ride the Canadian! Here's a link to my Trip Report from several years ago....






__





A Winter Ride On VIAs Canadian (with photos)


It's been several years since I had a winter ride on the Canadian and IMHO……the best time to ride! The crowds are gone and there’s lots of room to just sit back in the dome and watch the snowy winter landscape go by from the warm and cozy train. With some vacation time coming due I started...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> My favorite time to ride the Canadian! Here's a link to my Trip Report from several years ago....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will check it out later! 

And being a southern Californian, I don't see snow that much!


----------



## caravanman (Apr 7, 2021)

Just by way of a contrast, my trip report from several years ago. 

Canadian trip report...

Photos can be viewed on this link... (I hope!)


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

Ah yes, I did go through your photos! 


caravanman said:


> Just by way of a contrast, my trip report from several years ago.
> 
> Canadian trip report...
> 
> Photos can be viewed on this link... (I hope!)


----------



## Dakota 400 (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> Well, that would work for me. I would love to see the Rockies through snow



A winter time trip on the CZ and the EB is also beautiful, particularly if the snow is fresh fallen.


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> A winter time trip on the CZ and the EB is also beautiful, particularly if the snow is fresh fallen.


I did see snow from a train for the first time on my EB trip last October. It was beautiful, even better because I wasn't expecting to see any snow. It wasn't as much as some in videos, but it was enough for me!


----------



## Dakota 400 (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> I did see snow from a train for the first time on my EB trip last October. It was beautiful, even better because I wasn't expecting to see any snow. It wasn't as much as some in videos, but it was enough for me!



The best winter scenery that I have experienced was on the East bound EB. Raining in Seattle when the train departed, turning East at Everett and climbing into the Cascades, the rain turned to snow. The snow continued throughout the night and into Glacier National Park. Retiring for that first night, I had to force myself to close the curtain and get some sleep. It was simply magnificent! Arising, it was a winter wonderland!


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 7, 2021)

I rode the Canadian annually for several years until COVID scuttled my last trip, as well as Amtrak LD trains. Often the Canadian one way, Amtrak the other, so my comparisons are the results of head to head experiences on the same trip.

1. OBS crews on average are better and more consistent on VIA. Yes, there are duds, but not as many.
2. Food in the diner was considerably better than Amtrak's "traditional" dining and the menu did rotate.
3. The roomette beds are considerably more comfortable on VIA, wider (at the head and shoulders) and an actual mattress.
4. For regular sleeper passengers (Sleeper Plus) booze is NOT free. It is free for Prestige, which is roughly 5 times more expensive than Sleeper Plus. There were welcome aboard receptions in the domes on departure from Vancouver, Jasper and Toronto where they serve cheap champagne, though.
5. Prices can be pretty close in the off season for a trip of comparable duration. Look for sales. If you become a member of VIA's frequent traveler program, you become an elite level member ("Prestige") with one Vancouver-Toronto trip in a private accommodation and get a coupon worth 50% off the undiscounted fare, which will be lower than most sale prices (40% off is the most I've seen in their sale page the last few years). I've ridden Vancouver-Toronto in a roomette for around $900 USD with that coupon and a good exchange rate.

VIA's price structure is much simpler. You have discount and undiscounted fare classes, both of which are visible on the website. The only yield management VIA does is control capacity offered in the discount class, and there are 3 seasonally based fare schedules. Peak, Shoulder and Off Peak.
6. While the Canadian Rockies are spectacular, the "good" parts are only a couple hours on both sides of Jasper. There's a LOT of prairie. I'd rate the Zephyr, Starlight and eastbound Cardinal above it for pure scenery.

But none of them have domes.
7. I much prefer the train in the off season. It is much more low key and enjoyable generally. Not to mention much lower prices and Park Car access.
8. In the off season, dome access isn't much of an issue, aside from the 4 hours around Jasper, and at departure. For that, just get up there early. I don't go up to the dome for the Rockies any more. I've seen it and will give someone else a chance. There are usually at least 3 domes. A Skyline for coach passenger, at least 1 Skyline in Sleeper Plus (unless it is a really short, minimum consist and light load, which I've never seen), and the Park. The Sleeper Plus Skyline isn't always staffed in the off season, though. The consist and staffing varies with demand and load.

The general ratio of non-revenue space, including the lounge areas of the Skylines, the Bullet Lounge in the Park as well as the domes, is higher than Amtrak. There's lots of places to hang out.


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> And since I've probably awaken this thread again (which I'm not really sorry for), when is off/on peak seasons for the Canadian?


Sorry, I didn't answer the question. Shoulder pricing starts in late Septmber, not positive of the date. Park Car access for Sleeper Plus is mid-October, varies a bit each year. Off season pricing starts November 1st. Shoulder season prices are less than peak, but not by that much. The off season pricing is significantly less.

Sorry, don't know the Spring dates since I usually travel in the Fall.


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Sorry, I didn't answer the question. Shoulder pricing starts in late Septmber, not positive of the date. Park Car access for Sleeper Plus is mid-October, varies a bit each year. Off season pricing starts November 1st. Shoulder season prices are less than peak, but not by that much. The off season pricing is significantly less.
> 
> Sorry, don't know the Spring dates since I usually travel in the Fall.


No worries, thanks for your help. I probably won't be taking it for several more years anyway, but I'm interested in it anyway


----------



## Bob Dylan (Apr 7, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Sorry, I didn't answer the question. Shoulder pricing starts in late Septmber, not positive of the date. Park Car access for Sleeper Plus is mid-October, varies a bit each year. Off season pricing starts November 1st. Shoulder season prices are less than peak, but not by that much. The off season pricing is significantly less.
> 
> Sorry, don't know the Spring dates since I usually travel in the Fall.


If they go back to selling the Sections, a Lower Birth is really Worth a discount Fare in the Off Season.( it has a Window and you get all the perks of Sleeper Plus pax)

Upper Births a very comfortable for sleeping, and even a better bargain if you dont mind No Window and climbing a Ladder to your berth.

I rode in the Winter several times, and I preferred the Lower Berth Sections to the Roomettes( Cabin for 1) and even rode in an Upper one time VAC-TWO for $500 CDN!!! 

VIA is strict about the amount of Luggage you can carry on. You'll have to check any Roller or Oversized Bags and just take what you really need aboard.( I had a Backpack with all my essentials in addition to checking my Roller Bag)


----------



## Bob Dylan (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> No worries, thanks for your help. I probably won't be taking it for several more years anyway, but I'm interested in it anyway


See my post below yours!


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 7, 2021)

I agree about your observations on sections. And a lower berth is traditionally considered the best bed on a train.

However, personally I don't consider sections for two reasons:
1. I have obstructive sleep apnea and require a CPAP, so I need an electrical outlet for it. Sections have no outlet.
2. On a four night trip, I need a private space I can retreat to. That means a door.
As to an upper, in addition to the above, no window in the upper is an absolute deal breaker for me.

VIA's "real" roomettes are much more comfortable than the Amtrak so-called roomettes (economy bedrooms), particularly the bed itself.

The price difference is a powerful argument, though and you get all the amenities of Sleeper Plus regardless of whether you're in a private accommodation or an open section.

The luggage restrictions apply whether you are in a section or a room. There is very little luggage space in a roomette, and no common space in the car. I pretty much use a gym bag to carry changes of clothes and toiletries, and check my suitcase. I hardly ever check luggage on Amtrak.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Apr 7, 2021)

B&Ofan said:


> I don't think coach passengers have access to the diners



When I took the Canadian in 2007 I ate a dinner with coach passengers. That was before the prestige class changes so maybe different now.

[


zephyr17 said:


> 6. While the Canadian Rockies are spectacular, the "good" parts are only a couple hours on both sides of Jasper. There's a LOT of prairie. I'd rate the Zephyr, Starlight and eastbound Cardinal above it for pure scenery.



Agreed. Even more so in winter when all of the prairies, lakes, and rivers are a solid blanket of snow. I’d like to ride again when the prairies were a bit more alive!



zephyr17 said:


> 2. On a four night trip, I need a private space I can retreat to. That means a door.
> As to an upper, in addition to the above, no window in the upper is an absolute deal breaker for me.
> 
> VIA's "real" roomettes are much more comfortable than the Amtrak so-called roomettes (economy bedrooms), particularly the bed itself.



I agree with point #4. I’d love to ride in a section just for the fun of it. But 4 nights? I want to be able to have some alone time if I want it.

I disagree with the Amtrak vs. VIA (heritage) roomettes. The bed and bedding? 100% more comfortable agreed. But the Amtrak roomette is more comfortable for me in the daytime. The via roomette seats are not very comfortable, do not recline, and the roomette feels a bit claustrophobic to me since there are all solid walls around you. 

For me, the via and Amtrak roomettes both have pros and cons.


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

Okay I am not used to VIA, what are sections? Shared rooms?


----------



## fdaley (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> Okay I am not used to VIA, what are sections? Shared rooms?



A section is the Pullman invention that was the standard U.S. sleeping car arrangement before WWII -- the sleeper bunks with curtains that you see in old movies. Each section has two facing bench seats by day. At night, the two seats become the base of a lower berth, and an upper berth folds down from above; both have heavy curtains that give you a measure of privacy from people passing in the aisle. 

VIA sells the upper and lower berths separately, or you can book two together as a section if you have a party of two. The lower has a window; the upper does not. Consequently the upper is the lowest priced sleeper space, while the lower costs a bit more but is still less than a roomette. The Manor sleepers that are commonly used on the Canadian each have three sections, four roomettes and six bedrooms (one of which is actually what used to be known as a "compartment," with a bit more floor space than the other bedrooms). 

I have traveled many happy miles in lower berths on VIA. The price is considerably less than a roomette, though it still includes meals and the other amenities of VIA's "sleeper plus" class, and the bed is actually wider. I have never slept better on a train than in those beds. But you do share a bathroom with the other section passengers, and your space by day is not private. I have not found that I'm terribly concerned about the latter point on the Canadian, as I wind up spending a lot of the day in the domes, diner or lounge areas anyway.


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

fdaley said:


> A section is the Pullman invention that was the standard U.S. sleeping car arrangement before WWII -- the sleeper bunks with curtains that you see in old movies. Each section has two facing bench seats by day. At night, the two seats become the base of a lower berth, and an upper berth folds down from above; both have heavy curtains that give you a measure of privacy from people passing in the aisle.
> 
> VIA sells the upper and lower berths separately, or you can book two together as a section if you have a party of two. The lower has a window; the upper does not. Consequently the upper is the lowest priced sleeper space, while the lower costs a bit more but is still less than a roomette. The Manor sleepers that are commonly used on the Canadian each have three sections, four roomettes and six bedrooms (one of which is actually what used to be known as a "compartment," with a bit more floor space than the other bedrooms).
> 
> I have traveled many happy miles in lower berths on VIA. The price is considerably less than a roomette, though it still includes meals and the other amenities of VIA's "sleeper plus" class, and the bed is actually wider. I have never slept better on a train than in those beds. But you do share a bathroom with the other section passengers, and your space by day is not private. I have not found that I'm terribly concerned about the latter point on the Canadian, as I wind up spending a lot of the day in the domes, diner or lounge areas anyway.


Thank you! It seems the basic design is similar to an Amtrak roomette, just you share with a stranger if you're travelling solo..


----------



## joelkfla (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> Thank you! It seems the basic design is similar to an Amtrak roomette, just you share with a stranger if you're travelling solo..


No, because it's not a room. By day, it's like a small open coach section. At night, the only thing between you and the aisle is a curtain.

This page has photos: VIA Rail's Canadian | The train from Toronto to Vancouver


----------



## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> No, because it's not a room. By day, it's like a small open coach section. At night, the only thing between you and the aisle is a curtain.
> 
> This page has photos: VIA Rail's Canadian | The train from Toronto to Vancouver


Oh I see, thank you!


----------



## fdaley (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> Thank you! It seems the basic design is similar to an Amtrak roomette, just you share with a stranger if you're travelling solo..



Except that there's no wall separating you from the corridor, although there are curtains at night.


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> Okay I am not used to VIA, what are sections? Shared rooms?


Find a way to stream "Some Like It Hot" starring Jack Lemmon, Tony Curtis and Marilyn Monroe.

There is an extended scene that takes place in an open section sleeper. That would be your best way to see what it is.

Unfortunately, do not expect to have Marilyn Monroe in your berth.


----------



## Willbridge (Apr 7, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Find a way to stream "Some Like It Hot" starring Jack Lemmon, Tony Curtis and Marilyn Monroe.
> 
> There is an extended scene that takes place in an open section sleeper. That would be your best way to see what it is.
> 
> Unfortunately, do not expect have Marilyn Monroe in your berth.


There are some explanatory scenes in this WWII propaganda film. Watching it is a reminder that for lots of the Greatest Generation their first time in a sleeping car was courtesy of Uncle Sam - two GI's in the lower, one in the upper. My dad was shipped in an open-section Pullman from Nisqually to Mobile. This was an advance over WWI, in which the Oregon National Guard went to the East Coast in day coaches with walkover seats.

Troop Train


----------



## fdaley (Apr 7, 2021)

Regarding the scenery discussion above, although I agree that the grandest scenery on the Canadian probably isn't quite as dramatic as the best on the California Zephyr, the Rockies in the vicinity of Jasper are really majestic. I never tire of that portion of the run. Heading eastbound, the entire stretch from Kamloops to Hinton is great, scenic mountain railroading. 

And while this is a comparatively small portion of the four-day trek to/from Toronto, I do also enjoy the stretch through the Canadian shield, particularly from Sioux Lookout to the Manitoba border -- all those lakes, rocks and spruce trees. 

One thing to keep in mind with the Canadian is that it can be subject to extreme delays. So if you're intent on seeing the Rockies in daylight, an eastbound trip is a safer bet, if only because you're less likely to be far off schedule on Day 2 than on Day 4. The last time we took the Canadian westbound, in February 2019, the train left Toronto 11 hours late (because of late-arriving equipment from the west) and was about 30 hours late by the time we cleared Edmonton. So we covered the Rockies entirely in darkness. On the plus side, the next morning we were treated to a daylight trip through the Fraser Canyon that is normally covered only at night. I took lots of photos from the dome.


----------



## Willbridge (Apr 7, 2021)

The only real solution used to be to make round-trips and on both main lines! These are from our Christmas 1977 trip between Edmonton and Portland.




versus


----------



## Bob Dylan (Apr 7, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> No, because it's not a room. By day, it's like a small open coach section. At night, the only thing between you and the aisle is a curtain.
> 
> This page has photos: VIA Rail's Canadian | The train from Toronto to Vancouver


But you have plenty of privacy in your Bed( the Curtain is heavy), and during the day you tend to hang out in the Park Car, the Domes and the Diner.

I never rode in my Seat in the Section once during my several trips in a Section.


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 7, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> But you have plenty of privacy in your Bed( the Curtain is heavy), and during the day you tend to hang out in the Park Car, the Domes and the Diner.
> 
> I never rode in my Seat in the Section once during my several trips in a Section.


That depends on one's own personal needs. I spend most of my waking hours on that train in the lounges, domes and diners, but usually spend a couple hours, typically in the afternoon, relaxing alone in my roomette with the door closed to recharge.

Everyone's needs are different. I am at heart an introvert and I could not tolerate four days without having access to a daytime refuge. I do not spend that much time there, but it is there when I need it.

Good for you that you don't, but don't tell me that I don't.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Apr 7, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> That depends on one's own personal needs. I spend most of my waking hours on that train in the lounges, domes and diners, but usually spend a couple hours, typically in the afternoon, relaxing alone in my roomette with the door closed to recharge.
> 
> Everyone's needs are different. I am at heart an introvert and I could not tolerate four days without having access to a daytime refuge. I do not spend that much time there, but it is there when I need it.
> 
> Good for you that you don't, but don't tell me that I don't.


I understand, it's good to have a Refuge on a trip that long!


----------



## fdaley (Apr 8, 2021)

Sorry, I thought I had attached these to my earlier post, but apparently the files weren't small enough. The Fraser Canyon of B.C., between Spences Bridge and Boston Bar, from the dome of the Canadian, Feb. 2019.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Apr 8, 2021)

VIA 'Sections'.......... Lower and Upper Berths on the Canadian.




(above is from a 1950s CPR 'Canadian' Brochure)





In the photo above you can see the Upper Berth Ladder hanging against the partition on the right. Behind that partition is a shower. The shower space was also a section when originally constructed but was removed when the cars were rebuilt in the late 1980s. There's two washrooms at the other end just behind the photographer.


----------



## Rasputin (Apr 8, 2021)

My wife and I (and our children) have had many nice trips in sections on VIA or CP trains but I remember times when someone passing by in the aisle would lose their balance and bump up against the curtains and almost fall into the section. (I suspect that they may have had a few too many.). Passengers in sections are also more susceptible to noise from the corridor than passengers in rooms which have a solid wall or door to buffer the noise.

I would have no problem travelling in a section again if the price was right but four days in a section might get a little old in my opinion.


----------



## fdaley (Apr 8, 2021)

Last I knew, VIA allowed stopovers at no additional charge, so on a couple of our trips on the Canadian, we broke the trip at Jasper, avoiding four straight nights on the train. Of course, with service down to twice a week before the pandemic, that would mean stopping over for at least three nights.


----------



## jiml (Apr 8, 2021)

fdaley said:


> Last I knew, VIA allowed stopovers at no additional charge, so on a couple of our trips on the Canadian, we broke the trip at Jasper, avoiding four straight nights on the train. Of course, with service down to twice a week before the pandemic, that would mean stopping over for at least three nights.


I know that used to be the case and I have benefited from it in the past. I'm not sure how it would work with their current system, so would likely require an agent's advice - if still possible at all. Since the Canadian reappeared in the inventory I've done a number of trial bookings and can't see how the "sum of the parts" would not greatly exceed a full-length trip.


----------



## SubwayNut (Apr 8, 2021)

Took an Upper Section on VIA (with a free Stopover) back in March 2012 was able to save a good $100 in not paying taxes by booking a connecting ticket (which I used) to Niagara Falls, NY (VIA tickets connecting onto the Maple Leaf across the US border dont pay GST and HST), and then purchased a low-bucket normal Amtrak ticket back to NYC (Saved a good $50, because VIA tickets out of Canada on the Maple leave are high) and did a free stopover in Jasper. Me and my Dad booked a section together from Vancouver to Jasper on a ski trip (going from Whistler to Lake Louise) which was also a fun trip in April 2015. I've always been impressed by VIA, even the way they handeled the Ocean breaking down one stop away from Halifax, efficiently getting us on buses, and giving me a deeply discounted birth on my Vancouver to Jasper section.

Most memorable moment was seeing the Northern lights after leaving Winnapeg in the darkened dome car on my 2012 trip.


----------



## jiml (Apr 8, 2021)

For anyone interested, here are some sample fares for travel out of Toronto in late October (shoulder season) for 2 Seniors in a bedroom:
Winnipeg - $2100
Saskatoon - $2300
Edmonton - $2500
Vancouver - $4000

All are discounted (low-bucket) numbers in CAD rounded to closest $100. Interestingly on the same date Prestige Class is available either Toronto - Winnipeg or Toronto - Vancouver, but not the intervening cities. The latter is a whopping $10K.


----------



## caravanman (Apr 8, 2021)

Fare Information



*FARE**G.S.T/H.S.T.**P.S.T.**TOTAL*$514.25$66.85$0.00$581.10*PAYMENT* - authorization #


ITINERARYFARE PLANREFUND/EXCHANGE CONDITIONSTORONTO to VANCOUVEREXPRESS DEALS*Non-exchangeable and non-refundable.*


Gosh fares have leapt up, that is my discounted ticket for a solo cabin for 1 back in May, 2011.


----------



## fdaley (Apr 8, 2021)

jiml said:


> I know that used to be the case and I have benefited from it in the past. I'm not sure how it would work with their current system, so would likely require an agent's advice - if still possible at all. Since the Canadian reappeared in the inventory I've done a number of trial bookings and can't see how the "sum of the parts" would not greatly exceed a full-length trip.



The sum of the parts is definitely a lot more. With an agent's help we were able to book at the Toronto-Vancouver fare, with stopovers, in 2014 and 2016. We tried in 2019, but couldn't get space at the discounted fare on the previous or following departures, though in theory the no-charge stopover was still offered.


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 8, 2021)

jiml said:


> For anyone interested, here are some sample fares for travel out of Toronto in late October (shoulder season) for 2 Seniors in a bedroom:
> Winnipeg - $2100
> Saskatoon - $2300
> Edmonton - $2500
> ...


Note that October is still shoulder season pricing, which is nearly as expensive as peak. Off peak pricing starts November 1st. That should drop the 2 adult price to about 3600 CAD.

4 nights in an Amtrak bedroom would probably be comparable.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Apr 8, 2021)

The upper berth at times is the best deal in travel. I have gotten it for 400 CAD once for the whole distance of Vancouver-Toronto which includes so many good meals. I find it the easiest bed to sleep in as it gets completely dark. Which has led to me joking and calling it the coffin bed. As it's literally like a coffin dark and easy to sleep. I always struggle with waking up in the morning in time for breakfast or scenery.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Apr 8, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> The upper berth at times is the best deal in travel. I have gotten it for 400 CAD once for the whole distance of Vancouver-Toronto which includes so many good meals........




To each his own!!....I just wouldn't consider an upper even at a great fare. If I wake up I have to see where we're at and besides it's nice to be able to just lie back in bed and watch the scenery......perhaps on a moon lit night after a fresh snow fall!


----------



## Palmetto (Apr 8, 2021)

I've done both roomette and lower berth on VIA. The bed in the berth was superior to that in the roomette. The one big drawback I encountered in the section was that there was no electrical outlet to charge anything. Maybe that has changed.


----------



## fdaley (Apr 8, 2021)

As to the original discussion in this thread, you could actually get from Toronto to Vancouver faster (pre-pandemic) by taking the Empire Builder and Cascades, especially if you used a bus/taxi/limo between VIA at Windsor and Amtrak in Detroit. It likely would cost less, and the trains run every day. But the Canadian is a much better train and onboard experience, well worth the extra time and money.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Apr 8, 2021)

i haven’t ridden since the prestige class - maybe @Seaboard92 and others who have ridden before and after can say how much of a difference it really is?

It just doesn’t sound as fun with certain seats blocked off, and less convenient access to the park car. But maybe I’m overthinking it.


----------



## fdaley (Apr 8, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> i haven’t ridden since the prestige class - maybe @Seaboard92 and others who have ridden before and after can say how much of a difference it really is?
> 
> It just doesn’t sound as fun with certain seats blocked off, and less convenient access to the park car. But maybe I’m overthinking it.



All of my trips since the advent of Prestige Class have been in the off-season (February). Initially there was no restriction on access for passengers in the regular sleeper class, though on my most recent trip, in 2019, the first two rows of seats in the Park car dome had bands saying they were reserved for prestige travelers. Otherwise we had full use of the Park car. VIA has also added a Skyline car ahead of the prestige cars and the diner, and the dome there is open to all sleeper passengers. Plus there's a third dome near the front that's open to coach travelers, though the staff was discouraging us from using that on our last trip. 

The remake of the prestige cars, including the Park car, is really impressive, and overall the atmosphere is a bit more festive for everyone. I was afraid some of the prestige folks might be frowning at sharing space with us ordinary mortals, but in fact they were all having a great time, and we shared some good conversations.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Apr 8, 2021)

fdaley said:


> All of my trips since the advent of Prestige Class have been in the off-season (February). Initially there was no restriction on access for passengers in the regular sleeper class, though on my most recent trip, in 2019, the first two rows of seats in the Park car dome had bands saying they were reserved for prestige travelers. Otherwise we had full use of the Park car. VIA has also added a Skyline car ahead of the prestige cars and the diner, and the dome there is open to all sleeper passengers. Plus there's a third dome near the front that's open to coach travelers, though the staff was discouraging us from using that on our last trip.
> 
> The remake of the prestige cars, including the Park car, is really impressive, and overall the atmosphere is a bit more festive for everyone. I was afraid some of the prestige folks might be frowning at sharing space with us ordinary mortals, but in fact they were all having a great time, and we shared some good conversations.



That’s good to know. So even in off season there is now a second dome just for sleeping car passengers? That’s good. 

When I rode I spent a decent amount of time in the “Coach” dome since that was closest to the front of the train.

Sounds like I don’t have much to worry about then... yes I was afraid the atmosphere of the park car wouldn’t be the same!


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 8, 2021)

I've taken 3 off season trips since Prestige started. It really hasn't impacted my enjoyment of the train. The first few rows in the Park dome are reserved. How many depends on the Prestige passenger load. Been on trips where it was only the first row, another when it was the first 3. There's always the Skyline, too. The Bullet Lounge has no restrictions, btw.

It isn't a big deal in the off season.


----------



## OBS (Apr 8, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> I've taken 3 off season trips since Prestige started. It really hasn't impacted my enjoyment of the train. The first few rows in the Park dome are reserved. How many depends on the Prestige passenger load. Been on trips where it was only the first row, another when it was the first 3. There's always the Skyline, too. The Bullet Lounge has no restrictions, btw.
> 
> It isn't a big deal in the off season.


This mirrors my experience as well.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Apr 8, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> i haven’t ridden since the prestige class - maybe @Seaboard92 and others who have ridden before and after can say how much of a difference it really is?
> 
> It just doesn’t sound as fun with certain seats blocked off, and less convenient access to the park car. But maybe I’m overthinking it.




I've only done the trip since they did the Prestige roll out however I can somewhat compare to the Parks on the Ocean. Me personally I don't like that they have marked most of the seats out in the dome. My most recent trip there were only two seats (one pair) available for non prestige passengers. Now I sat in the prestige seats in the middle of the night and no one seamed to really care. But that's partly because it was the middle of the night no one wanted to be up there. 

My first trip across Canada VCVR-TRTO I only went back to the Park car once because the clientele I found was super rude. I remember when I got to go back the first time hearing this remark about me, "Looks like they let the riff raff in" and I was immediately mad and left. It wasn't worth the argument with them. By leaving I demonstrated I have more class than to go into an argument in my opinion. The second trip I made on the Canadian VCVR-WNPG I went back with my friends from the regular sleeper right before Edmonton and no one made snide remarks. And one of the fellows a retired Space Engineer (Literally when they say you have to work for NASA to understand something he did) was really nice and invited me to spend as much time in Prestige as I wanted. I didn't because I really liked my misfit group I was in with the normal crowd. Namely Australians and Canadians. 

Now the Prestige passengers eat always in Diner B so if that is your diner you will get to mingle with them. In addition diner B will be the updated interiors when those get back into service soon. Me personally I like being in the B section of the train I always find the personality better on the rear end. But that could just be because I'm a people person and I put them at ease.


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 8, 2021)

Well, in my off season trips there has only been one diner and there were usually at least 3 rows in the Park dome that weren't marked off. Didn't catch any attitude from the Prestige pax and a quite a few Sleeper Plus pax were usually back there, in the dome, bar, and Bullet Lounge.

If there were 2 diners, that must have been more in shoulder season. Most times I've taken in the off season there have only been 4 or 5 Manors, and one Prestige Chateau, so they were only running one diner.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Apr 9, 2021)

I mean I would still argue you could run a far better service to western Canada if you would shorten the consist. When you think they are running 9 to 12 sleeper lines per trainset that is insane. You could easily run with 4 per trainset and you would have enough sets to cover the route in daylight. You also wouldn't have to assign two diners to the train. Skylines become a bit of a problem I believe but I would have to play with the numbers.


----------



## railiner (Apr 9, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> I've only done the trip since they did the Prestige roll out however I can somewhat compare to the Parks on the Ocean. Me personally I don't like that they have marked most of the seats out in the dome. My most recent trip there were only two seats (one pair) available for non prestige passengers. Now I sat in the prestige seats in the middle of the night and no one seamed to really care. But that's partly because it was the middle of the night no one wanted to be up there.
> 
> My first trip across Canada VCVR-TRTO I only went back to the Park car once because the clientele I found was super rude. I remember when I got to go back the first time hearing this remark about me, "Looks like they let the riff raff in" and I was immediately mad and left. It wasn't worth the argument with them. By leaving I demonstrated I have more class than to go into an argument in my opinion. The second trip I made on the Canadian VCVR-WNPG I went back with my friends from the regular sleeper right before Edmonton and no one made snide remarks. And one of the fellows a retired Space Engineer (Literally when they say you have to work for NASA to understand something he did) was really nice and invited me to spend as much time in Prestige as I wanted. I didn't because I really liked my misfit group I was in with the normal crowd. Namely Australians and Canadians.
> 
> Now the Prestige passengers eat always in Diner B so if that is your diner you will get to mingle with them. In addition diner B will be the updated interiors when those get back into service soon. Me personally I like being in the B section of the train I always find the personality better on the rear end. But that could just be because I'm a people person and I put them at ease.


I like to sit in the "railfans's seat", the front row of a dome car, so if I was restricted from using it, it would spoil the trip somewhat for me. On the other hand, if I had paid the very high Prestige fare, it would annoy me if those not paying the same, took my 'reserved space' away from me. I liked the Alaska RR "Gold Star Service", where every seat was in the full-length ultra-dome, and you could reserve a specific seat, on a first come-first served basis....


----------



## Seaboard92 (Apr 9, 2021)

railiner said:


> I like to sit in the "railfans's seat", the front row of a dome car, so if I was restricted from using it, it would spoil the trip somewhat for me. On the other hand, if I had paid the very high Prestige fare, it would annoy me if those not paying the same, took my 'reserved space' away from me. I liked the Alaska RR "Gold Star Service", where every seat was in the full-length ultra-dome, and you could reserve a specific seat, on a first come-first served basis....


Its funny for me I would prefer the regular vista domes that the Alaska Railroad has. I prefer the classics. But I wouldn't really use the dome as they have open vestibules which I would probably enjoy more.


----------



## railiner (Apr 9, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> Its funny for me I would prefer the regular vista domes that the Alaska Railroad has. I prefer the classics. But I wouldn't really use the dome as they have open vestibules which I would probably enjoy more.


I love the regular vista-domes better than the older full length domes, but the Ultra Domes 'have it all'....you can reserve a specific dome seat, and if you are early enough, snag the front ones. They are so high, that you can actually look over the top of an older dome car. They also have the open sided observation platforms in the upper rear, and have their own galley and dining room on the lower level, with an ADA lift between levels. The original paired Ultra Domes operated by Princess Tours even had a 'gift shop' selling sundries, snacks, and souvenirs on board...


----------



## zephyr17 (Apr 9, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> I mean I would still argue you could run a far better service to western Canada if you would shorten the consist. When you think they are running 9 to 12 sleeper lines per trainset that is insane. You could easily run with 4 per trainset and you would have enough sets to cover the route in daylight. You also wouldn't have to assign two diners to the train. Skylines become a bit of a problem I believe but I would have to play with the numbers.


That is one of the reason I like the off season. The off season consists I have been on have been 4 or 5 Manors. I understand minimum consist is 3 Manors. So consists I have been have been 12-13 cars (baggage, coach, Skyline, 4 or 5 Manors, Skyline, Diner, crew Chateau, Prestige Chateau, Prestige Park). That feels like a normal train. The 25-26 car monsters of the summer do not.

And, as I said, the vibe is much more low key.


----------



## railiner (Apr 9, 2021)

railiner said:


> I love the regular vista-domes better than the older full length domes, but the Ultra Domes 'have it all'....you can reserve a specific dome seat, and if you are early enough, snag the front ones. They are so high, that you can actually look over the top of an older dome car. They also have the open sided observation platforms in the upper rear, and have their own galley and dining room on the lower level, with an ADA lift between levels. The original paired Ultra Domes operated by Princess Tours even had a 'gift shop' selling sundries, snacks, and souvenirs on board...


Just went thru some scans of old photos I took on my ride in the Princess Ultra-domes, back in 1991.
Not great photos, but you can get an idea of how much higher they were than the Holland America former Big Domes ahead of them on the AuRoRa. HAL replaced those with Ultra-domes since then...


----------

