# AGR Card Declined at Local Store



## Everydaymatters (Aug 24, 2011)

Ugh - how humilitating! I live in a small town. Yesterday I grabbed my AGR Mastercard and stuck it in my pocket. I didn't take any other cards or cash or driver's license or checkbook or anything else. Just my AGR mastercard.

I brought my purchase to the checkout counter and slid my card through. It came back "declined" and "give card to cashier".

I don't know the name of the store - Dollar General or Dollar Tree or one of those dollar stores.

They do not accept Mastercard credit cards. For Mastercard they accept only debitcards. Apparently they do accept any other credit cards as _credit_ cards.

The cashier took the purchase out of the bag and I slinked out of there totally humiliated.

Can we covert our AGR credit cards to debit/credit cards? I won't be using my AGR card at that store again, but I don't want this to happen in any other store that might have the same policy.


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## stntylr (Aug 24, 2011)

For it to work as a debit card you would have to have an account at the bank that issued it.


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## Ryan (Aug 24, 2011)

And I've never heard of a store that will accept debit but not credit, so I wouldn't worry about it happening again in too many other places.

In fact, if the store was displaying a sign with the MasterCard logo on it, I think that it's against the service agreement to accept one but not the other.


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## jis (Aug 24, 2011)

Ryan said:


> And I've never heard of a store that will accept debit but not credit, so I wouldn't worry about it happening again in too many other places.
> 
> In fact, if the store was displaying a sign with the MasterCard logo on it, I think that it's against the service agreement to accept one but not the other.


I guess we are all very used to all cards being accepted everywhere in the US. When you travel internationally you have to be prepared to have your cards declined, even MasterCard and Visa, because they do not have an embedded chip in them. Try using a US issued MasterCard and Visa at many of the TVMs for SNCF/RER as well as RATP (Metro) in Paris and watch how it mostly does not work for example! And getting AmEx turned down is so common that you just stop trying to use it at all. And of course Discover just does not work. leave it in the US.

So you just keep appropriate alternatives handy, and get used to it, and do not take it personally and get embarrassed and all that. Chalk it up to various idiosyncrasies of the Vendor, Acquirer and Payer involved and leave it at that and carry on with life.


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## rrdude (Aug 24, 2011)

Ryan said:


> And I've never heard of a store that will accept debit but not credit, so I wouldn't worry about it happening again in too many other places.
> 
> In fact, if the store was displaying a sign with the MasterCard logo on it, I think that it's against the service agreement to accept one but not the other.


You'll see it more in the future Ryan, with the changes that Obama signed into law a couple of years ago, merchants and John Q. Public are getting a few more protections, but merchants and card issuers rules of acceptance have loosened up some too.
Remember when small retailers would post hand-written signs that would read something like, "Minimum purchase for CC is $10"? That USED to be a violation of the Terms Of Conditions between the merchant and the card issuer, now they can legally do that, as long as it's posted.

Additionally, merchants can choose to accept either credit, debit, or both. It's their call. Some small merchants choose NOT to accept CREDIT CARDS, because it COST THEM more, and takes a wee bit longer to get the cash in the MERCHANTS bank account.


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## jis (Aug 24, 2011)

rrdude said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > And I've never heard of a store that will accept debit but not credit, so I wouldn't worry about it happening again in too many other places.
> ...


The net result may be unfortunate since Credit cards have better legal protection for owners of same than Debit Cards. Debit Cards have a promise from banks of making up for any losses, and we now how good banks are at that when push comes to shove. And typically they apply the same promise to credit cards too, but in addition they are obligated to follow the legal backstops that exist for Credit Cards.


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## pennyk (Aug 24, 2011)

The Dollar Tree down the street from me does not accept credit cards, other than discover, however, it does accept debit cards and cash. I always like to use my AGR card, but to me it is a trade off between really cheap prices and AGR points when I shop at Dollar Tree.


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## Everydaymatters (Aug 24, 2011)

I just now called Mastercard and told them what happened. She offered to change my account to Visa, but then said she was not able to do so. The other option, which I accepted, is to give me a pin number so I can also use it as a debit card, although it will still be a charge on my credit card. This will be a huge help as our small town has so few stores.


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## the_traveler (Aug 24, 2011)

Everydaymatters said:


> The other option, which I accepted, is to give me a pin number so I can also use it as a debit card, although it will still be a charge on my credit card. This will be a huge help as our small town has so few stores.


But if you use the PIN, it will register as a debit card. Will you still earn AGR points on the purchase?






As an example, my bank's ATM card can also be used as a debit card or a (Visa) credit card. If I use it 10 times in a month as a *CREDIT* card, I earn a higher rate of interest and free nationwide ATM usage



. But using it as a debit card (using a PIN) does not meet the requirements.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 24, 2011)

Everydaymatters said:


> The other option, which I accepted, is to give me a pin number so I can also use it as a debit card, although it will still be a charge on my credit card.


I'd be vaguely concerned that entering a pin would make the transaction a cash advance, which doesn't earn AGR points and which (I think) accrues interest from day one. You might want to make sure of that with Chase.


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## Everydaymatters (Aug 24, 2011)

Ispolkom said:


> Everydaymatters said:
> 
> 
> > The other option, which I accepted, is to give me a pin number so I can also use it as a debit card, although it will still be a charge on my credit card.
> ...


Thank you! Good Catch! You are absolutely right. I called and was told it would make the transaction a cash advance at a higher interest rate. I didn't even ask about the AGR points because I simply will not use it as a debit card based on the higher interest rate. I usually pay my card off every month, but who knows what the future holds...some day I might choose to make only a partial payment.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 24, 2011)

Everydaymatters said:


> Thank you! Good Catch! You are absolutely right. I called and was told it would make the transaction a cash advance at a higher interest rate.


I'm glad to be of help. I'd forgotten about the higher interest rate. Best of luck on your eye surgery.


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## jacorbett70 (Aug 24, 2011)

I get "cash advance check" offers that say the fee is 4% of the advance (Min: $10). Not sure if the same applies to a debit card advance, but imagine a $10 fee on a $5 purchase at a dollar store!

I tried researching my account at the Chase site, to see what the fees are, but it only offered mailing a copy of my account agreement to my address of record, and I'm sure I already have the information at home.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 24, 2011)

:hi: Betty: Good luck with the eye surgery, Ive had two (cataracts and retina) so can relate! As to the Debit Card/Cash Advance higher interest/fee scam, that sounds like the PayDay Loan MO, the Credit Card Companies have no shame, hence the need for new laws in Washington! (Why are working people so dumb when it comes to stuff like this? We NEED a Consumer Protection Agency so someone is on our side in Washington! The lobbyists have run amok too long, hence the current Financial mess!! You could look it up as Casey Stengel used to say!) Best advice, pay cash for small transactions, use AGR MC for points on larger purchases, pay it off monthly!


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 24, 2011)

There are some stores around here that only accept debit and maybe _one_ credit or charge card that they managed to negotiate a good rate on. I have almost never had a purchase declined because I always carry a backup card and some cash. I spend the cash in stores that I want to support, debit cards in stores I'm indifferent about, and credit cards in stores I would rather not patronize if it was possible to avoid them. For automated payments I generally use ACH transfers to avoid additional service fees.


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## amamba (Aug 24, 2011)

Ah, small town living.

Aldi is another example of a store that only takes debit cards and NO credit cards. And Costco, for example, only takes Amex OR debit cards. I believe that the stores save money on the merchant transaction fees this way and they argue that it keeps their prices low.


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## the_traveler (Aug 24, 2011)

amamba said:


> And Costco, for example, only takes Amex OR debit cards. I believe that the stores save money on the merchant transaction fees this way and they argue that it keeps their prices low.


However, based on your example using 2 other Wearhouse clubs dispute that claim.

Sam's Club take Discover and MasterCard as well as debit cards. BJ's take *ALL* credit cards as well as debit cards. They both keep their prices low - many times lower than Costco! I belong to all 3 of them have compared prices, and all 3 are almost the same - although sometimes BJ's is lower, despite taking all cards!


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## Ryan (Aug 24, 2011)

The difference is that Costco pays their employees a living wage, instead of paying credit card companies.

I'm cool with that.


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## jis (Aug 25, 2011)

Ryan said:


> The difference is that Costco pays their employees a living wage, instead of paying credit card companies.
> 
> I'm cool with that.


So you believe that the credit card merchants charge saved would cover the difference between living and no living wages? And that too after they pay the higher fees for Amex than they would for Visa/MC? Where is the connection to reality in that reasoning?


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## Ryan (Aug 25, 2011)

I believe that's a part of it, yes. Costco heavily markets their AmEX card, so I'd be willing to bet that the fees they pay to AmEX aren't as high as you would expect.

I don't think that simply avoiding credit card fees saves enough money to make the difference between living and nonliving wages, but it's a start. My point was that the money that is saved by fee avoidance (and other cost saving measures) is actually returned to the people that work there and not towards adding to the Walton family wealth.


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## BeckysBarn (Aug 25, 2011)

Based on my personal experience with my small business (which has a few hundred dollars in cc transactions a month):

My credit card machine does not differentiate between credit & debit. I believe this is up to the credit card _processing _company.

I no longer accept AmEx because they wanted to charge me an $8 monthly fee in addition to transaction fees. In 5 years I've only had 2 AmEx transactions.

The fees I'm charged are less than 2% for Visa & MasterCard; about 3% for Discover. This is in addition to the basic per transaction fee of about 20 cents. For some cards, the fees are a little higher. If a card has "benefits" for the consumer, the merchant is contributing, not the CC company.

I'm sure large companies negotiate better fees. We don't have a Costco around here, but if they're promoting AmEx, you can bet it's because it benefits Costco.


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## jis (Aug 25, 2011)

Ryan said:


> I don't think that simply avoiding credit card fees saves enough money to make the difference between living and nonliving wages, but it's a start. My point was that the money that is saved by fee avoidance (and other cost saving measures) is actually returned to the people that work there and not towards adding to the Walton family wealth.


And you have verified this how? Or is it just a warm and fuzzy feeling?


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## Ryan (Aug 25, 2011)

Coscto's business model and fair treatment of their workers is a pretty common case study.

Older article, but they have continued on the same trajectory:



> Costco Wholesale Corp. (COST ) handily beat Wall Street expectations on Mar. 3, posting a 25% profit gain in its most recent quarter on top of a 14% sales hike. The warehouse club even nudged up its profit forecast for the rest of 2004. So how did the market respond? By driving the Issaquah (Wash.) company's stock down by 4%. *One problem for Wall Street is that Costco pays its workers much better than archrival Wal-Mart Stores Inc.* (WMT ) does and analysts worry that Costco's operating expenses could get out of hand. "At Costco, it's better to be an employee or a customer than a shareholder," says Deutsche Bank (DB ) analyst Bill Dreher.


http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 25, 2011)

Ryan said:


> Coscto's business model and fair treatment of their workers is a pretty common case study.
> 
> Older article, but they have continued on the same trajectory:
> 
> ...


Good find Ryan! And people wonder why we have a financial mess, and the greedheads are out of control! :angry: :angry2: I shop @ Costco, and other places that treat their employees fairly! Theres a good reason Consumer Reports rates them @ the top and the Wal-Marts of the World @ the bottom!(At one time I had a Wal-Mart Card and shopped there often! When Sam Walton died, and they stopped their Buy American Campaign, I quit shopping there!) If people would wake-up they would realize whats going on, and the Wal-Marts of the World would go the way of Kressges, Circuit City,Borders etc. etc.It impresses me everytime Small towns and their Citizens fight a new Mega-Store coming to their town, but its really hard when people want Low Prices, American Jobs be damned! :help: (Remember the old 80s song" "I Want My MTV!")


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## trainman74 (Aug 25, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> If people would wake-up they would realize whats going on, and the Wal-Marts of the World would go the way of *Kressges*, Circuit City,Borders etc. etc.


The Kresge company is still in business, although their traditional five-and-dime stores have been gone for a couple decades -- the company is now called Sears Holdings, and owns Sears and Kmart. (True, business analysts do keep predicting that they're going to join Circuit City and Borders any day now, although they've managed to stay alive so far despite the doom and gloom.)


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## MrFSS (Aug 25, 2011)

Do merchants have the right to charge less for paying cash? That is, can they tack the fee onto the purchase if you use a charge card? I have seen small stores (especially antique stores) that say, 5% off if you pay cash, some even 10% off if you pay cash. Always wondered if this was legal or not.


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## Ryan (Aug 25, 2011)

Legal? Yes. However, for a long time the Merchant Agreement would prohibit a surcharge for using a credit card did not (couldn't or wouldn't, I'm not sure) prohibit a cash discount, which in effect was the same thing. Not sure how the recent changes to the consumer protection laws will change this.


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## amamba (Aug 25, 2011)

I believe that a "cash discount" is still legal.I don't really notice this around me, but I have seen gas stations in other states charge one price for cash and one price for credit.

And I'm not necessarily making the argument that accepting only debit cards keeps the fees down. I am just saying that is an argument that is made by the stores themselves. Here is the link to the aldi website: http://www.aldi.us/us/html/company/shopping_smarter_3184_ENU_HTML.htm

they write, "By avoiding credit cards, we avoid the extra time it takes to sign a slip and the hefty processing fee charged by credit card companies.

What ALDI does accept are cash, food stamps/EBT cards, and PIN-based debit cards—the lowest-cost forms of payment for us—and the fastest ones for you."

So regardless of whether you personally believe it, the argument is being made by these companies that not accepting credit cards makes it easier for them to keep prices low.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 25, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> At one time I had a Wal-Mart Card and shopped there often! When Sam Walton died, and they stopped their Buy American Campaign, I quit shopping there!


*This story* from PBS' Frontline explains that Sam Walton was actually one of the biggest proponents of buying imports and that his "campaign" about buying American was little more than a long-lived PR stunt that was only axed after NBC Dateline exposed it as a blatant fraud following Mr. Walton's death. I wonder how long they sat on that story before finally deciding to take it public.


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## Oldsmoboi (Aug 25, 2011)

There was a point a few years back where Walmart was getting ready to ONLY accept their own store credit card, or debit cards. No Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or Amex unless you used a pin (and racked up cash advance charges) This was a threat to the banks and Visa/Mastercard to lower the fees.

I think Walmart got their fees lowered... but just for themselves of course.


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## jdcnosse (Aug 25, 2011)

I do live in a small town as well (about 5,000 people) and we have one of family dollar stores that doesn't accept credit cards at all...which I can understand if they don't accept any credit cards...but to not accept only mastercard credit, but they do accept mastercard debit? That makes no sense at all.


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## Everydaymatters (Aug 26, 2011)

jdcnosse said:


> I do live in a small town as well (about 5,000 people) and we have one of family dollar stores that doesn't accept credit cards at all...which I can understand if they don't accept any credit cards...but to not accept only mastercard credit, but they do accept mastercard debit? That makes no sense at all.


That's exactly what I don't understand. They accept other credit cards and they do accept Mastercard debit cards, but they do not accept Mastercard credit! I asked an employee about it and she didn't know why. I don't know if it is just our local store or if that is a store-wide policy.

After I left the Dollar General store I drove to the grocery store here in our small town (population about 2,700 people) and used the AGR credit card with no problem at all.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 26, 2011)

It probably won't help much to ask a random clerk to explain a decision to which they aren't privy. If you're really curious I'd suggest you take a look at the service sticker on their point of sale device. Then call the number listed on the sticker and ask them to fax or mail you a credit/debit fee chart. Presumably whatever isn't accepted either has a higher fee or comes with some sort of limitation or isn't fully supported by the credit processor. Then again maybe this particular business just had a really bad experience with fraud or charge reversals tied to a specific card and stopped accepting them for that reason.


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## amamba (Aug 26, 2011)

Everydaymatters said:


> jdcnosse said:
> 
> 
> > I do live in a small town as well (about 5,000 people) and we have one of family dollar stores that doesn't accept credit cards at all...which I can understand if they don't accept any credit cards...but to not accept only mastercard credit, but they do accept mastercard debit? That makes no sense at all.
> ...


Because PIN BASED Transactions (ie, debit) have a lower processing fee for the merchant than cards run as credit. Debit/pin based transactions are handled differently on the back end than credit transactions. The nice thing about a debit card with a mastercard logo is that you can ALSO use it as a credit card in that you can use it anywhere that takes mastercard. But its not backwards compatible. So you could probably use an ATM card that doesn't have a mastercard logo on it at this store, but you can't use a mastercard that is not linked to a checking account as a debit card.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

Everydaymatters said:


> I just now called Mastercard and told them what happened. She offered to change my account to Visa, but then said she was not able to do so. The other option, which I accepted, is to give me a pin number so I can also use it as a debit card, although it will still be a charge on my credit card. This will be a huge help as our small town has so few stores.


If you do run it as debit and if somehow you were fine with ridiculous the cash advance fee they probably still wouldn't give you any points. You see a lot of the affinity debit cards that say you must run the purchase as a signature(credit) transaction to get your free stuff. So even though people use rewards debit cards they have to run them as credit that makes the merchant pay the higher fee anyway.


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