# Amtrak and Fare Evasion



## Spokker (Jan 17, 2010)

On commuter rail passengers without a ticket are cited if they are caught riding without a ticket, or even the wrong type of ticket. However, I've never seen anyone cited on Amtrak. Does Amtrak have the authority to give someone a citation for riding without the proper fare? Do they just kick you off at the next station?

Are habitual fare evaders on Amtrak ever a problem?


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## AlanB (Jan 17, 2010)

I've no doubt that the Amtrak police can issue a citation to a fare evader; I've even seen a fare evader taken off an Acela train in Wilmington by the Amtrak police. Not sure just what they did with him after removing him from the train, but it is theft of service so I suppose that jail could have been in the mix.

Of course in much of the country it's not all that easy to find an Amtrak cop. So I suspect that the conductor is given considerable discretion on what to do. But I've no doubt that in addition to forcing you to pay or to get off at the next stop, they certainly can arrange to have the local police show up and remove someone. I guess at that point it would be up to Amtrak to decide to press charges locally. Just what remedies beyond jail they can get, I'm not sure.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 17, 2010)

I have seen Amtrak Conductors collect fare on-board. One time on a Corridor train a man told the Conductor "this was the first train that came and I'm late, so I figured I'd just pay the difference." The Amtrak Conductor just smiled and said "well it shouldn't be too much more."

Not really the same thing... but kinda in the same category.


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## EB_OBS (Jan 17, 2010)

This happened on the Empire Builder. Told to me by the conductor involved.

The conductor told me that this kid had moved into an empty bedroom after Spokane. He was ticketed in coach and the conductor remembers the kid getting on in SPK. Well in the morning the sleeping car attendant asked the conductor if they had done an on-board upgrade as this one door was locked from the inside with the curtains pulled.

Well, they rousted the kid up and when the train arrived into Portland, the local police met the train to arrest the kid for theft of services. He was then allowed to pay for the room, full fare, in order to stay out of jail. He used a credit card and later actually tried to have the company reverse the charges by telling them he hadn't traveled in the sleeper and had a coach ticket which he had also paid for with the same credit card. The charges were not reversed.


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## Spokker (Jan 17, 2010)

Great that they get the police involved. In all instances where I have witnessed someone without a ticket with no intention to pay, they were simply told to leave the train at the next stop.

There are also some people who say that they missed their stop and tell the conductor and act all apologetic. I wonder if some are playing dumb in order to squeeze a little more distance out of their ticket and save a couple bucks. I imagine those people are in the minority though.


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## Tony (Jan 17, 2010)

ez223 said:


> The charges were not reversed.


You had me up until this. IMHO, there is no way a conductor would ever know the credit card's final resolution. Over the years, I have been given credits simply as "good will" as a good bank customer, regardless of the business's story.


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## Guest (Jan 17, 2010)

Tony said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > The charges were not reversed.
> ...


I would think that the conductor would have had to sign a statement that what happended did happen so there is a good possibility he was in the loop.

I don't think that the price of a high bucket bedroom would be something that would fall under the "good will" category though. "Good will" is for stuff that they don't want to waste their time(money) investigating.


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## RRrich (Jan 17, 2010)

Its good the Conductor can call the local police. Police are trained and authorized to use force - which is frequently required. Conductors are trained in many things but i doubt that they get much training in the use of force.

Let the jerk stay on the train until a real cop can remove him.


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## the_traveler (Jan 17, 2010)

I think forcing somebody off "at the next stop" would be punishment enough! A 24 hour layover in Pudunkville should do it - especially if Pudunkville is un-staffed!


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## jmbgeg (Jan 17, 2010)

Spokker said:


> On commuter rail passengers without a ticket are cited if they are caught riding without a ticket, or even the wrong type of ticket. However, I've never seen anyone cited on Amtrak. Does Amtrak have the authority to give someone a citation for riding without the proper fare? Do they just kick you off at the next station?
> Are habitual fare evaders on Amtrak ever a problem?


I once observed a Conductor confront a young man who had been on the San Joaquins several stops but apparently avoided paying by changing seats each stop. The Conductor gor very stern but stopped short of having the guy arrested after he paid from a fare from the originating station (probably wanted to avoid the incident report).


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## EB_OBS (Jan 17, 2010)

Tony said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > The charges were not reversed.
> ...


The conductor was some while later, called by an Amtrak manager and congratulated on his job well done. That's how he had some follow-up info on the story. But, yeah, normally one wouldn't be privy to any details like that.


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## dlagrua (Jan 17, 2010)

From what I have seen read fare beaters don't get far on Amtrak. Long distance trains are staffed well. There are waiters, food service people, conductors, porters/room attendants and the like.

The dining car manager on the Autotrain last summer told me a story that during spring break, back to school or schools out days, the train is loaded with college kids heading home. On one occaasion a couple of kids got especially rowdy and started throwing things in the dining car. They were asked to stop. When they didn't, they were politley seated and continued to ride to their surprise was they were ejected from the train at Florence SC where the train stops to change engine crews. Their automobiles, still onboard continued on to Florida. While they were not charged with criminal behavior, they found themselves in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night! The manager then said we try to be nice on all counts, but don't **** us off! I don;t know how the story ended but I can only guess that the guys had to pick up the Silver Meteor several hours later in the morning to get to Florida. Trouble is that train doesn't stop at the Sanford Fl Auto train depot.


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## Shanghai (Jan 17, 2010)

I was on the regional train last Thursday from WAS to NYP in Business Class when a man got on the train and sat in the seat in front

of me. The conductor came to collect his ticket only to find that the ticket was for a different train for a different day. The rider

said he didn't realize he was on the wrong train and in the wrong class then the conductor saw it was the wrong day. The conductor

ordered him back to coach and told him to get off at the next station (BWI) and straighten out the mess with the ticket agent at the

station. Good for the conductor!!


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## DET63 (Jan 17, 2010)

Has anybody ever gotten on a train, hidden out in the john till the next stop, and gotten off the train without paying or being noticed? (If anyone here has done it, you are free to "take the 5th" and blame it on some unknown person.  )


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## Neil_M (Jan 17, 2010)

DET63 said:


> Has anybody ever gotten on a train, hidden out in the john till the next stop, and gotten off the train without paying or being noticed? (If anyone here has done it, you are free to "take the 5th" and blame it on some unknown person.  )


Yes.


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## lthanlon (Jan 17, 2010)

When I was on the Empire Builder in October, some folks seeing friends off were still on the train when the it pulled out of Columbus, Wisconsin. Someone (not sure if it was the conductor), made an appeal over the PA to "Stop the train! Stop the train! There are visitors on board!" But the train didn't stop until Portage, the next station. I forgot to ask our conductor whether the visitors had to pay.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 17, 2010)

lthanlon said:


> When I was on the Empire Builder in October, some folks seeing friends off were still on the train when the it pulled out of Columbus, Wisconsin. Someone (not sure if it was the conductor), made an appeal over the PA to "Stop the train! Stop the train! There are visitors on board!" But the train didn't stop until Portage, the next station. I forgot to ask our conductor whether the visitors had to pay.


the conductor would not make that over the P.A he has the power to stop the train so im guessing it was either the A.C or another staff member.


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## sueb (Jan 17, 2010)

On a morning Keystone service commute I once observed a conductor put a rider off outside Phila because the man refused to provide ID. He appeared willing to pay the fare, but would not give ID. Since it is EXTREMELY rare for conductors to ask for ID on Keystone service there may have been more going on than I was able to see.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 17, 2010)

DET63 said:


> Has anybody ever gotten on a train, hidden out in the john till the next stop, and gotten off the train without paying or being noticed? (If anyone here has done it, you are free to "take the 5th" and blame it on some unknown person.  )


Cary Grant aka Roger Thornhill seems to be pretty good at doing that and hiding in folded Upper Berths. Seven parking tickets!


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## guest in LA (Jan 17, 2010)

When the Pacific Surfliner between LA and San Diego gets really crowded during holiday times, and often even on weekends, the conductors often do not go through the train after intermediate stops, not even to pull the colored seat checks. I'm sure there are many riders who end up with uncollected tickets and are able to use them again. The rail unions have fought occasional proposals to collect Surfliner tickets as riders board because it would necessitate closing off some of the doorways. In this way, the LA-SD line is at times a victim of its own popularity.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 17, 2010)

My experience with our local commuter rail is that only objectionable or heavily repetitious offenders are cited. The general protocol is to allow the skinflint to eject himself from the train under his own power at the next stop. Getting the police involved delays trains and accrues paperwork. Most conductors avoid this if they can.

I have assumed that Amtrak's protocal is, in order of likelihood:

1) Sell the offender a ticket.

2) Tell the offender to get off the train at the next stop.

3) Have the police escort the offender at the next stop (I don't know if they are cited every time or what)

4) Stop the train at the next grade crossing and have the police eject the passenger.

In my long experience, 2 is always proffered to the passenger. On NJT I have seen people work their way to their stop by leaving the origination early in the morning and hopping half a dozen trains to their destination without buying a ticket.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 18, 2010)

The Trinity Rail Express in DFW uses the honor system and you are subject to a heavy fine if a fare inspector catches you without a ticket or pass. But the few times I've ridden the system, always from one end to the other, I have yet to see an inspector come through. And I recall the same thing a few years ago riding the U-Bahn in Berlin, but the inspectors were more frequent and when they entered the car, always in pairs and displaying a badge, you saw an almost automatic response as folks in unison made sure their ticket/pass were in hand.


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## Hamhock (Jan 18, 2010)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> And I recall the same thing a few years ago riding the U-Bahn in Berlin, but the inspectors were more frequent and when they entered the car, always in pairs and displaying a badge, you saw an almost automatic response as folks in unison made sure their ticket/pass were in hand.


Old habits die hard in Berlin, perhaps.


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## TVRM610 (Jan 18, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> lthanlon said:
> 
> 
> > When I was on the Empire Builder in October, some folks seeing friends off were still on the train when the it pulled out of Columbus, Wisconsin. Someone (not sure if it was the conductor), made an appeal over the PA to "Stop the train! Stop the train! There are visitors on board!" But the train didn't stop until Portage, the next station. I forgot to ask our conductor whether the visitors had to pay.
> ...


The Assistant conductor also carries a radio so it is very unlikely he would use the public PA for this as well. I'm sure this would have been an Attendant of some sort. Operating crews do use the PA for communication to not interfere with the operating channels. This is common in the NEC especially.

However.. if an AC thought it was necessary to stop the train... he would radio the conductor (or in the case of an emergency the Engineer, as he is qualified to give train orders).


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## leemell (Jan 18, 2010)

Hamhock said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > And I recall the same thing a few years ago riding the U-Bahn in Berlin, but the inspectors were more frequent and when they entered the car, always in pairs and displaying a badge, you saw an almost automatic response as folks in unison made sure their ticket/pass were in hand.
> ...


In 1981 I rode the train DB, from Braunschweig in West Germany through East Germany to Berlin and returned the next day. Let me tell you, when the DDR passport guys came through, you did not look sideways. let alone give them any reason to look at you for more than a second. The second guy was there just to make sure everything worked as it should, very heavily armed and NO sense of humor. The folks there have very good reason for their responses.


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