# Grand Canyon Railway to discontinue Amtrak shuttle service



## CHamilton (Sep 26, 2017)

Grand Canyon Railway to discontinue Amtrak shuttle service

https://www.williamsnews.com/news/2017/sep/26/grand-canyon-railway-discontinue-amtrak-shuttle-se/


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 26, 2017)

As someone who has used the shuttle and stayed at their hotel multiple times I can say that #1 I can understand the issue with guests lounging in the lobby waiting for the shuttle.

But #2, I was a guest of the hotel as well, and used the service. I don't find it more convenient to go to flagstaff, and think this "director" is very out of touch with his hotel guests.

I'm shocked they don't want to continue the service for their own hotel guests / train riders.


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## Train2104 (Sep 26, 2017)

Since there's no private access to Williams Junction, I guess the station will no longer be a regular stop after 1/1/2018.


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## zepherdude (Sep 26, 2017)

Is this a paid service? I am not familiar with the shuttle service.


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## greatcats (Sep 26, 2017)

As I understand it, the hotel is under contract with Amtrak to provide the van ( or full size bus, if there is a large crowd) and to keep the Forest Service road plowed in the winter. The cost of the van service is included in the Amtrak ticket. I can see some of their points, but feel this is regressive. I have used the service before and I was not a hotel guest or Grand Canyon railway passenger. It is a good place to park One's car. ( the hotel that is, not the station stop location.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## TinCan782 (Sep 26, 2017)

Probably means no more stop at WMJ. Can't help wonder if Amtrak was behind this.

We used it a few years ago SWC from Los Angeles, GCRY to the South Rim for a couple of nights and back Even though the arrival from LA was at "oh-dark-thirty", we had a good experience and I'd do it again. I'd prefer that to the Flagstaff option. I'd still do it if they (or someone) charged for the service.

In the article they state, "_deal with wear and tear on the vehicles_.” Three miles each way; two round trips a day. How much wear and tear is that? I'm sure those same vans get a lot more use by the hotel during the day!

FYI... According to NARP, WMJ had slightly more than 8,000 passenger arrivals/departures in 2016.

https://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/2634/wmj.pdf


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## greatcats (Sep 26, 2017)

The full size bus they were using a few years ago was one that I used to drive at Grand Canyon. It was pretty old. I agree that if this goes through it will probably end Amtrak service to Williams. I stopped there early this morning in the way from Flagstaff to LA.


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## Dave Van (Sep 26, 2017)

I heard that was going to happen while I was on the SWC this month. Another reason that was given is the SWC not being able to maintain any kind of 'on time' service.....this causes the hotel to be on call 7/24. No surprise here.


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## TinCan782 (Sep 26, 2017)

January 10, 2012

Arrival at from Los Angeles at WMJ



IMG_3947 by John, on Flickr

January 13, 2012. My wife and I were the only passengers headed back to LA.

The temperature was something below 20°F.



IMG_5703 by John, on Flickr


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## amtrakpass (Sep 26, 2017)

I also used this service a few years back coming from the midwest, stayed at the hotel, took their train to the Grand Canyon and back the next day and then continued on to Los Angeles. I told a friend how much I enjoyed the trip and he was able to do a similar trip with his wife after that. I was planning on going back again someday. A shame.


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## BCL (Sep 26, 2017)

FrensicPic said:


> In the article they state, "_deal with wear and tear on the vehicles_.” Three miles each way; two round trips a day. How much wear and tear is that? I'm sure those same vans get a lot more use by the hotel during the day!


Short trips aren't known for being very good for engines. There's condensation after shutdown if the engine doesn't reach full operating temperature - especially when the outside temps are cold. Theoretically they could keep the engine running to allow for the engine to reach full operating temperatures, but then that would create other issues like wasting fuel as well as excessive idling being tough on an engine - although maybe not as bad with modern engines controls.


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## TinCan782 (Sep 26, 2017)

BCL said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> > In the article they state, "_deal with wear and tear on the vehicles_.” Three miles each way; two round trips a day. How much wear and tear is that? I'm sure those same vans get a lot more use by the hotel during the day!
> ...


Well yes, the kept the engine running for us while there at the platform!


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## BCL (Sep 27, 2017)

FrensicPic said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > FrensicPic said:
> ...


That's pretty typical to maintain the heat in winter. I mean - the driver probably isn't going to enjoy sitting in a cold bus waiting, and of course the passengers would sure appreciate it being warm.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 27, 2017)

I'm sure the #1 problem is non-hotel guests hanging in the lobby waiting at such odd hours. As was said... non-guests sleeping on lobby couches and making hotel staff uncomfortable. I can see that being an issue. But I wish there was a way to keep the service and fix the problem.

When I arrived this past February at 4 something AM I asked about an early check-in (I was staying in the hotel the next 2 nights) and they let me check in no problem (I've never had a hotel deny me an early check in if they have the room available). I raved to my friends about the easy door to door service and how convenient it was.


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## TinCan782 (Sep 27, 2017)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'm sure the #1 problem is non-hotel guests hanging in the lobby waiting at such odd hours. As was said... non-guests sleeping on lobby couches and making hotel staff uncomfortable. I can see that being an issue. But I wish there was a way to keep the service and fix the problem.
> 
> When I arrived this past February at 4 something AM I asked about an early check-in (I was staying in the hotel the next 2 nights) and they let me check in no problem (I've never had a hotel deny me an early check in if they have the room available). I raved to my friends about the easy door to door service and how convenient it was.


In our trip a few years ago, we also got an early check-in. We weren't' going to ride the GCRY until the next day. Those going out on GCRY the same day are the ones in the lobby. On our return, we spent several hours in the lobby waiting for Amtrak's 10 pm or so westbound arrival/departure.


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## neroden (Sep 27, 2017)

Supposedly they're going to try to rely on the shuttles which run from Flagstaff to Williams.

I still suspect this is going to kill Grand Canyon Railway ridership, unless they contract with one of the Flagstaff-Williams shuttle operators to be on-call 24/7.


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## jebr (Sep 27, 2017)

Based on the article, I doubt they'll be picking people up when the train arrives in Flagstaff - it wouldn't resolve most of the issues they're claiming they want to resolve. People will instead wait at the Amtrak station in Flagstaff, from the sounds of it, until morning.


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## neroden (Sep 27, 2017)

So their plan is to kill their ridership? I checked: there is no van service from Flagstaff to Williams which arrives before the departure of the Grand Canyon Railway train. They'd have to specifically contract for one, in which case I don't see them saving money. If they don't specifically charter one, they're just setting fire to their ridership.

I guess I'd better take the Grand Canyon Railway before they shut down completely. Throwing away 11 passengers per day is significant to a tourist railway -- and probably even more significant for the hotel.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 27, 2017)

neroden said:


> So their plan is to kill their ridership? I checked: there is no van service from Flagstaff to Williams which arrives before the departure of the Grand Canyon Railway train. They'd have to specifically contract for one, in which case I don't see them saving money. If they don't specifically charter one, they're just setting fire to their ridership.
> 
> I guess I'd better take the Grand Canyon Railway before they shut down completely. Throwing away 11 passengers per day is significant to a tourist railway -- and probably even more significant for the hotel.


I would imagine more than 95 percent of their passengers arrive by car. The loss of eleven passengers per day won't even be a blip on their total ridership. Nevertheless, loss of the connection to Williams Jct. is a setback. Is the operation of the shuttle bus/van that expensive? Since a large percentage of the bus ridership will be riding the train and staying at the hotel, this seems like a foolish move on Grand Canyon Railway's part.


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## jis (Sep 27, 2017)

It would be nice to know what numbers GCR is looking at in terms of actual usage and actual costs and revenues. I doubt that a huge proportion of the clientele of GCR actually arrives and departs by Amtrak. Indeed it is probably a rather small to negligible proportion. For example, I have never arrived or departed by Amtrak to ride the GCR. I have ridden it several times, and each time the train was fairly full.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 27, 2017)

A bigger question.. can amtrak just eliminate the stop? Like is it that easy? Not logistically, obviously the train can just not stop, but eliminating a stop can be a bit complex correct? Could amtrak now be responsible for providing a new shuttle operator?

Obviously we will find out in time.


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## Green Maned Lion (Sep 27, 2017)

Im sure Amtrak will have no trouble turning the stop into a flag stop and then ignoring it because nobody uses it.

That being said, I assume this must make sense for GCR. Im sure this decision was arrived at by something other than a game of darts.


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## crescent-zephyr (Sep 27, 2017)

It makes sense for them because they don't want people hanging out in the lobby. The van was available to all, not just customers of the hotel, so non-hotel guests (think... living on the road young adults etc.) were camping out in the lobby of the hotel. I saw this with my own eyes in the slow season, so I'm sure it was an issue.

This seems to be a growing problem with a certain class of people. I noticed lots of travelers sleeping and otherwise lounging in the Starbucks next to Sacramento's train station. It agitates the employees there to a point I make the extra walk to Old Town and have my breakfast at Steamers now (better breakfast options anyways).


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## VentureForth (Sep 27, 2017)

I don't think abandoning a stop on private property with private access will be an issue. They aren't abandoning a rail line. At least they are honest. They want to put off the riff raff and let them loiter at businesses in Flagstaff instead. That's nice. I really wonder if this will affect Williams at all.


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## trainboy325 (Sep 27, 2017)

We must remember that the current Grand Canyon Railway was founded by avid rail fans who invested a lot of money and took on very considerable financial risks in building a business model that took many years to become profitable. At that time, it was definitely prudent to reach out to all possible avenues of revenue (especially rail-fanning Amtrak passengers) to be part of their business plan. It also was the goal of the GCR's founders to "restore" the Williams connection with the Chief as Santa Fe did when they built their replacement depot at WMJ depot when the mainline reroute was completed between Williams Junction and Seligman.

However, Xanterra (the primary concessionaire at Grand Canyon NP on the South Rim) purchased the GCR about 10 years ago to build up their NPS concession holdings nationally. Since Xanterra is profit-driven from traditional state and park service income sources (lodges, restaurants, campgrounds, sightseeing tours, etc.) and providing a public service to many non-concession users, such as Amtrak passengers seeking an alternative to FLG, dropping the Williams Junction Amtrak service doesn't surprise me all that much. In the early days that Xanterra owned GCR, many of the managers and employees were kept to run the business under their ownership. However, over the years, I assume that many of those people have retired or moved on and many non-railfan focused managers now are operating GCR these days. Although dropping the service will be disappointing to those who use it, I honestly don't believe dropping WMJ shuttle service will have any negative impact on GCR ridership. Amtrak passengers who want to ride the GCR can easily book one of the many scheduled Amtrak thruway trips between FLG and WMA. The biggest setback will those who wish to travel to FLG from points east wanting to stay at GCR hotel the same evening. I don't believe a shuttle is scheduled to depart for WMA after the arrival of the westbound Chief. Therefore, those passengers will have to overnight in FLG or hire a taxi to take them on to the GCR hotel in WMA. Fortunately, the eastbound Chief connects to all shuttles going to WMA and GRB, so same day connections remain possible, albeit you probably can't count of taking the GCR train the same morning up to Grand Canyon. Those who booked a same day connection to the GCR from the eastbound Chief were probably so far and few between anyway. Most people I believe would want at least one night at the GCR hotel in WMA prior to starting the long day taking the train up and back to Grand Canyon plus the touring at the park when you are there. A same day connecting Amtrak passenger isn't the customer Xanterra is marketing for anyway, plus it's not advisable anyway to try and schedule any same day connection between a long-distance Amtrak train and something like a cruise, flight, or travel package on the GCR. However, if Xanterra or Amtrak were to request a late night shuttle departure from FLG to just WMA versus all the way to Grand Canyon for westbound Chief passengers with AZ Shuttle, then the loss of the WMJ shuttle for Amtrak GCR connecting passenger would be mute.

In many cases, when a longtime Amtrak service ends, it has a long-term negative consequence on ridership and customer service marketing (the short-sighted idea that unstaffing Amtrak stations is good for business comes to mind right now). However, in this case, I believe the elimination of the WMJ shuttle will have little if any effect on GCR's ridership and Xanterra will continue to market its Grand Canyon products to Amtrak passengers using the full-service Flagstaff station as its connecting point. Simply put, FLG is a much better connection point to the Chief for GCR passengers in grand scheme of things. As a full service station, with ticketing and baggage, restrooms, plus a full-service regional visitor center on site. It is located downtown with multiple restaurants and shop all within short walking distance of the station. Unlike a lot of mid-sized cities, Flagstaff's downtown is very popular with locals and tourists alike. Plus, taxis and app-based rideshare services are available and many hotels in the area have guest shuttles that regularly travel to and from the station. Although the Hertz rental car desk is no longer there, renting a car in FLG remains relatively easy since most rental companies have offices in town not far from the station. By eliminating the GCR Amtrak by outsourcing to already established thruway services provided by from AZ Shuttle which will continue to stop and service the WMA bus stop, which is the same site of the GCR shuttle at the front of the GCR hotel, the GCR will remain directly accessible to Amtrak passengers using a 20 mile shuttle connection versus a 3 mile one. Although it is not the intention, by eliminating the GCR shuttle service from WMJ to FLG, Amtrak's schedule of connecting services with the Chief may better demonstrate the excellent connectivity to final destinations like the GCR, Grand Canyon NP, Sedona, Phoenix and PHX Airport traveling through FLG on-board Amtrak. In the end, Xanterra simply has removed the passenger service issues of late trains from their responsibility back onto Amtrak, where the FLG station agent can handle those issues more effectively, without eliminating their ability to market and sell packages providing a direct thruway shuttle connection from Amtrak to the Grand Canyon via the GCR.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 27, 2017)

trainboy325 said:


> In the end, Xanterra simply has removed the passenger service issues of late trains from their responsibility back onto Amtrak, where the FLG station agent can handle those issues more effectively, without eliminating their ability to market and sell packages providing a direct thruway shuttle connection from Amtrak to the Grand Canyon via the GCR.


This (the entire post, that is) is a good, even-handed analysis. Yes, losing a station (as we are presuming is the case) is a sad thing. But in this case, the upsides seem to be somewhat even to the downsides (I realize that's objective).


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## BCL (Sep 27, 2017)

trainboy325 said:


> However, Xanterra (the primary concessionaire at Grand Canyon NP on the South Rim) purchased the GCR about 10 years ago to build up their NPS concession holdings nationally. Since Xanterra is profit-driven from traditional state and park service income sources (lodges, restaurants, campgrounds, sightseeing tours, etc.) and providing a public service to many non-concession users, such as Amtrak passengers seeking an alternative to FLG, dropping the Williams Junction Amtrak service doesn't surprise me all that much.


What they operate within public lands and as their own property is treated differently to some extent. The vast majority of what they operate in national parks is actually owned by the federal government but where the operations are contracted out to them. So they might have less strength to a position that they should be able to keep out people who aren't their customers, as places like the El Tovar Hotel and the Old Faithful Inn are publicly owned buildings. The federal government even spent a lot of money and several years doing earthquake retrofits of the Old Faithful Inn even though Xanterra is operating it.

They own the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel, so they probably have a stronger position that they can keep people out who aren't customers/guests. It's also kind of a quirk that they operations at Death Valley are fully their property. Even when the federal government shut down, they were advertising that they were still open, and that the road was still open as a state highway.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Sep 27, 2017)

BCL said:


> They own the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel, so they probably have a stronger position that they can keep people out who aren't customers/guests. It's also kind of a quirk that they operations at Death Valley are fully their property. Even when the federal government shut down, they were advertising that they were still open, and that the road was still open as a state highway.


Didn't Amtrak itself have a similar problem? I think with 30th Street in Philly? Private bus lines were using the station, as their own passenger's waiting lounge, without paying Amtrak any usage fee. The debate was that 30th Street wait area was "public" and therefore should be available to anyone to come inside, sit, and wait.


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## jis (Sep 27, 2017)

We all know that just because a building is publicly owned, does not make all areas within it public. Otherwise the Pentagon would be an open house


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## BCL (Sep 27, 2017)

jis said:


> We all know that just because a building is publicly owned, does not make all areas within it public. Otherwise the Pentagon would be an open house


Sure. However, a national park lodge is by definition a public place and not an office building. I don't know if the concessionaire would even bother if some Amtrak customer arrives at the Ahwahnee Hotel and waits in the Mural Room. Heck - I was there once just charging up my phone.

Even in a non-secure federal office building, the right to enter specific offices is predicated on having legitimate business at said office.

I know someone who was a head coach at a service academy. One his brilliant ideas was to hold a special service academy tournament held at the Pentagon Athletic Center every year. Fans (mostly families of players) could get access, but they didn't allow any mobile phones or anything with a camera or that could transmit information. Everyone went through security before entering. They had an official photographer for the tournament, but those were the only photos allowed. This was really just a recreational gym, and all the spectators watched from the balconies above the playing floor. I just wished that I had maybe asked to go once while he was still coaching there. Not that it's relevant to the discussion, but you mentioned the Pentagon.


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## PVD (Sep 27, 2017)

You should have seen the lines for cars football at West Point in years following 9-11


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## TinCan782 (Sep 27, 2017)

FWIW, I tried several test bookings today, LAX > WMJ, for January, February and March, 2018. Still possible online.

I re-read the article and it sounds like GCRY Hotel intends to go through with this (in other words, they didn't say they were just looking into it).

Will be interesting to see when WMJ drops off Amtrak's reservation system.


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## KmH (Sep 28, 2017)

fairviewroad said:


> trainboy325 said:
> 
> 
> > In the end, Xanterra simply has removed the passenger service issues of late trains from their responsibility back onto Amtrak, where the FLG station agent can handle those issues more effectively, without eliminating their ability to market and sell packages providing a direct thruway shuttle connection from Amtrak to the Grand Canyon via the GCR.
> ...


Williams Junction, where the Southwest Chief now stops, is not a station, just a stop:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Williams+Junction/@35.2426383,-112.1317934,158m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x87329dd1effdff43:0xae3a956ea3b6b0a8!8m2!3d35.2425875!4d-112.1318239


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## fairviewroad (Sep 28, 2017)

FrensicPic said:


> FWIW, I tried several test bookings today, LAX > WMJ, for January, February and March, 2018. Still possible online.
> 
> I re-read the article and it sounds like GCRY Hotel intends to go through with this (in other words, they didn't say they were just looking into it).
> 
> Will be interesting to see when WMJ drops off Amtrak's reservation system.


There's no particular rush to remove WMJ from the Amtrak website. If the service is actually canceled, most passengers with existing bookings could be easily accommodated via a Thruway bus or taxi from Flagstaff.



KmH said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > trainboy325 said:
> ...


While I appreciate your pedantry, WMJ is referred to as a station on both the Amtrak national timetable as well as on the Amtrak website.


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## KmH (Sep 28, 2017)

Good on you cobber.

Other AU forum visitors not as well informed as you may not understand the distinction and expect a physical station building at the stop.


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## BCL (Sep 28, 2017)

KmH said:


> Good on you cobber.
> 
> Other AU forum visitors not as well informed as you may not understand the distinction and expect a physical station building at the stop.


Really? It's pretty easy to find out that there's no station building. Amtrak has a very detailed description of WMJ, including that there is no direct access. It's not even possible to book a direct trip to WMJ.

I don't consider the lack of a station building to mean that it's not a station. It's a station by definition.


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## neroden (Sep 28, 2017)

trainboy325 said:


> Amtrak passengers who want to ride the GCR can easily book one of the many scheduled Amtrak thruway trips between FLG and WMA.


Um, what scheduled Amtrak Thruway trips between FLG and WMA? I mean, if there actually *are* "many scheduled Amtrak thruway trips", then yeah, they'll do OK, but as far as I am aware, there aren't.

Arizona Shuttle's *two* trips per day stop at Williams *by prior appointment only*, don't wait for Amtrak, miss the connection to both Amtrak trains, requiring an OVERNIGHT in Flagstaff for those coming from the east, and miss the connection to the Grand Canyon Railway train TOO.

If Xanterra replaces the Williams Junction shuttle with a functioning shuttle to Flagstaff, that would probably work just fine.

But the existing shuttle service from Flagstaff is not fit for purpose. If they don't beef up the Flagstaff shuttle service, it is definitely going to hurt ridership *and* hotel patronage at Williams.

Since, like most of the US population, I happen to live east of the Grand Canyon, I think I may have to go on the GCR before January. Darnit. I already had too many trips scheduled this year.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 28, 2017)

neroden said:


> Arizona Shuttle's *two* trips per day stop at Williams *by prior appointment only*, don't wait for Amtrak, miss the connection to both Amtrak trains, requiring an OVERNIGHT in Flagstaff for those coming from the east, and miss the connection to the Grand Canyon Railway train TOO.


I'm not sure I understand the problem.

If you are traveling to/from the east, the existing Southwest Chief stop at Williams Junction _already_ requires an overnight if you want to connect to/from the Grand Canyon Railway. Changing the connection point to Flagstaff simply moves the location of your hotel room. In fact, for the return trip you would get to sleep in later in Flagstaff than you would if you caught the train in Williams.

Under its current schedule, the first Arizona Shuttle departure of the day from Flagstaff arrives in Williams in time to catch the Grand Canyon Railway. And the final Arizona Shuttle departure from Williams to Flagstaff departs well after the scheduled arrival of the Grand Canyon Railway back in Williams.

As far as "by prior appointment only" I believe that is called a reservation and most Amtrak LD travelers already utilize those. But in full disclosure, I have not used Arizona Shuttle so I can't vouch for its reliability.


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## neroden (Sep 28, 2017)

OK, I guess Arizona Shuttle has fixed the scheduling problem; I must have been looking at an outdated schedule.

My other point is that Xanterra is moving hotel customers from their own hotel in Williams to unaffiliated hotels in Flagstaff, which seems commercially unsound.


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## greatcats (Sep 28, 2017)

Meriden - I see your point, but apparently Xanterra ( and I am a former employee) is finding the shuttle too troublesome to operate and staff, and the loss of a few hotel guests does not bother them.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## jis (Sep 28, 2017)

greatcats said:


> Meriden - I see your point, but apparently Xanterra ( and I am a former employee) is finding the shuttle too troublesome to operate and staff, and the loss of a few hotel guests does not bother them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Yeah. I suspect that the real problem is that the number of hotel customers arriving and departing by Amtrak is not worth the bother. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## jebr (Sep 28, 2017)

It also sounds like a not-insignificant portion of people would stay in the lobby instead of renting a room, at least for one of the evenings/mornings. Moving it to Flagstaff means that they now are waiting in the Amtrak station instead and not spending hours in the lobby just hanging out.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 28, 2017)

The business in question laid out a fairly reasonable and coherent explanation for why they're discontinuing this service. I didn't see anything controversial or implausible in their statement so I'm willing to take it at face value and assume that they've weighed their options and come to what they consider to be a reasonable path forward. Williams is an unusual stop focused on a rather niche passenger in a location with very limited services, so it doesn't seem that surprising that it might become more trouble than it's worth to a company that merely inherited it as part of a larger purchase.


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## greatcats (Sep 29, 2017)

I can vouch for the fact that having waited for a 4 hour late Train 3 the other night, that the benches in Flagstaff station are very uncomfortable. The lobby of the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel is far more cushy! Otherwise, Flagstaff is a decent station. I haven't seen the numbers, but with the exception of tour groups, I don't believe the numbers of Amtrak passengers is very high at Williams. I have boarded the eastbound train at Williams with only one other passenger.


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## PVD (Sep 29, 2017)

The cost and responsibility for plowing the road to keep it open all year was probably not insignificant for small numbers of passengers.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 29, 2017)

PVD said:


> The cost and responsibility for plowing the road to keep it open all year was probably not insignificant for small numbers of passengers.


I wonder if they'd be open to making it a seasonal stop...that eliminates the plowing/shoveling issue, and taps into the summer tourist customer base. It wouldn't be the only Amtrak seasonal stop, so there's certainly precedence for it. (That said, from the company's rhetoric they sound like they just want to wash their hands of it entirely.)


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## BCL (Sep 29, 2017)

fairviewroad said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> > The cost and responsibility for plowing the road to keep it open all year was probably not insignificant for small numbers of passengers.
> ...


I'm pretty sure that they could make up for whatever shortfall with more marketing.


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## fredmcain (Sep 29, 2017)

Now here's a possibly stupid question*: *How complicated and problematic would it be for the GCR to secure trackage rights over the BNSF "Peavine" from Williams to Williams Jct.? There is only one, maybe two road freights a day in each direction along there so surely there's capacity. I don't know what the track diagrams look like for William but if there were an extra track (already there or added) for the GCR train, people could wait on the train for their Amtrak connection.

To me, this whole thing seems like it ought to be a no brainer. But adding or alternating rail service patterns seems to be so complicated. It wasn't complicated decades ago when the railroads were still young. If they saw an opportunity,they just did it. I wish there were a way to unwind and eliminate some of our strict regulations and red tape.

regards,

fred m cain


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## greatcats (Sep 29, 2017)

Lots of things are possible. The approx 6 mile roundtrip detour, while done in a few other places, would be time consuming. Under the present setup, a fence divides the tracks in downtown Williams and it would take another backup move to access the GCR platform, which if delayed would interfere with their operations. There is nothing wrong with the present shuttle arrangement other than the odd hours going east and the logistics to run it. Not likely to happen, I would think.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Metra Electric Rider (Sep 29, 2017)

Perhaps it's all just a devious plot by Greatcats to get more people to visit Sunset Crater? h34r:


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## greatcats (Sep 29, 2017)

Hawhawhaw!!!! My laugh for the month!!


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## PVD (Sep 29, 2017)

Just got off the phone with my sister, talking about a visit....She said "you know if you decide to come into Maricopa it isn't a bad drive." (her house is in Chandler) I told her I'd rather go into Flag and spend a day or 2 before I come down because there is so much more I want to see to see.......(last trip, Lowell Observatory and Montezuma Castle)


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## Metra Electric Rider (Sep 29, 2017)

greatcats said:


> Hawhawhaw!!!! My laugh for the month!!


Happy to oblige!


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## greatcats (Sep 29, 2017)

PVD- good idea! Come to Sunset Crater where I volunteer.


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## PVD (Sep 29, 2017)

I'm meeting them in Dallas next month, my Brother in Law is doing a 3 day fundraiser walk against breast cancer, that will be my next LD trip, so I am looking at visiting them on a Spring trip to Arizona.......


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## Rick Scholz (Nov 5, 2017)

Has there been any update as to what is happening with this? I find it interesting that the only report of this is from a local newspaper that didn't bother to get comment from Amtrak to learn their plans. 

At this point, Amtrak is still selling tickets to Williams... nothing seems to have changed from Amtrak's point of view.


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## BCL (Nov 5, 2017)

Rick Scholz said:


> Has there been any update as to what is happening with this? I find it interesting that the only report of this is from a local newspaper that didn't bother to get comment from Amtrak to learn their plans.
> 
> At this point, Amtrak is still selling tickets to Williams... nothing seems to have changed from Amtrak's point of view.


I found the email of the Grand Canyon Railway marketing director (Bruce Brossman) named in the article. Anyone want to contact him and confirm?

bbrossman at xanterra dot com


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## KnightRail (Nov 9, 2017)

Effective January 1, 2018 service will be discontinued at Williams Junction (WMJ). Trains 3 & 4 will no longer stop at Williams Junction. New Thruway service between Flagstaff and Williams(WMA) begins January 1, 2018, stopping at the Holiday Inn Express, NOT the Grand Canyon Railway(WMA). These changes will be reflected through the reservation channels beginning November 15th


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 9, 2017)

What a shame... Glad I did it when I could.


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## greatcats (Nov 9, 2017)

This is not necessarily a bad thing. I have not been in favor of discontinuing the Williams Junction stop, but I can see the logistical problems for the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel ( Xanterra )to provide the service. I was told some time ago that their contract included keeping the forest road ( about 1 mile ) clear and accessible in the winter, which could be a problem reaching the stop at Williams Junction in bad weather ( Yes, we get heavy snow in Northern Arizona. ). I have a hunch that the Thruway operator is going to be Arizona Shuttle. While I am not really in need of the Williams stop, living in Flagstaff, which I use at least a couple of times per year, I think I am going to take a drive out to Williams soon and ask a few questions of the Holiday Inn Express, specifically if they will allow parking in their lot like the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel has permitted.


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## KmH (Nov 9, 2017)

On Google Maps it looks like the Holiday Inn Express is a fairly new addition in Williams.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2511939,-112.1986018,166m/data=!3m1!1e3

It was a vacant lot back in September of 2011:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2511598,-112.1990507,3a,60y,88.23h,88.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSF2ci8wtdHKUFnPYqXyWUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And there will soon be, or is, a La Quinta Inn & Suites adjacent to the Holiday inn Express.

Grand Canyon Railway Hotel (Xanterra) has new competition re accommodations.

It was a vacant lot back in September of 2011:

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2511598,-112.1990507,3a,60y,88.23h,88.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSF2ci8wtdHKUFnPYqXyWUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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## Chaz (Nov 10, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> Effective January 1, 2018 service will be discontinued at Williams Junction (WMJ). Trains 3 & 4 will no longer stop at Williams Junction. New Thruway service between Flagstaff and Williams(WMA) begins January 1, 2018, stopping at the Holiday Inn Express, NOT the Grand Canyon Railway(WMA). These changes will be reflected through the reservation channels beginning November 15th



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## neroden (Nov 10, 2017)

KnightRail said:


> Effective January 1, 2018 service will be discontinued at Williams Junction (WMJ). Trains 3 & 4 will no longer stop at Williams Junction. New Thruway service between Flagstaff and Williams(WMA) begins January 1, 2018, stopping at the Holiday Inn Express, NOT the Grand Canyon Railway(WMA). These changes will be reflected through the reservation channels beginning November 15th


Do we know whether the new Thruway service is meeting the trains from *both directions*?


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## greatcats (Nov 10, 2017)

I am going to go investigate in the next few days. If it wasn’t for that spooky at night forest Road, this would undoubtedly be handled differently.

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## greatcats (Nov 13, 2017)

I took a drive over to WILLIAMS today and located the Holiday Inn Express, which is a 2 year old Hotel and it is a few blocks walk to the Grand Canyon Railway. The gentleman at the desk knew nothing about the upcoming Amtrak arrangements, but gave me the manager’s card. Had a good dinner at Red Raven.

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## Bob Dylan (Nov 13, 2017)

So typical of Amtrak to make Major adjustments and those that will be directly affected ,ie the employees @ the Holiday Inn Express in Williams, know nothing about it!

Good thing the changes don't start for a few years eh, no wait....


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## jis (Nov 13, 2017)

But Jan 1 is still more than 6 weeks away. I am actually not surprised that a desk clerk at the Holiday Inn does not know anything about it at this point. I am actually wondering what eaxct role anyone in the Holiday inn has in all this. Are they going to be handling bagagge and tickets? If not, and if it is merely a bus stopping in front of the hotel, what do they have to do?


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## greatcats (Nov 13, 2017)

I agree that this is not surprising. I was just reporting on what I found yesterday. The Grand Canyon Railway Hotel I have observed is in touch with Flagstaff ticket office as to the number of passengers expected, but they have been the ones running the shuttle, but do not handle tickets or baggage.

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## Chaz (Nov 13, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> So typical of Amtrak to make Major adjustments and those that will be directly affected ,ie the employees @ the Holiday Inn Express in Williams, know nothing about it!
> 
> Good thing the changes don't start for a few years eh, no wait....[emoji848]


My IPad now flashes advice about new posts. I was startled to see that Bob Dylan was responding to this Williams thread. Then I realized it was ‘our’ Bob Dylan.


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## MikefromCrete (Nov 13, 2017)

It's not surprising at all that some random desk clerk doesn't know about the upcoming shuttle stop. I imagine the hotel will only be a place to pick up and drop off passengers, with the hotel employees having little to do with the operation, other than check in passengers who are staying at the hotel.


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 13, 2017)

MikefromCrete said:


> It's not surprising at all that some random desk clerk doesn't know about the upcoming shuttle stop. I imagine the hotel will only be a place to pick up and drop off passengers, with the hotel employees having little to do with the operation, other than check in passengers who are staying at the hotel.


I'm not surprised the clerk doesn't know, and presumably somebody will say something before the service begins, but if the ball is dropped I wouldn't want to depend on the good graces of an uninformed check-in clerk in the middle of the night during a Northern Arizona winter.


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## greatcats (Nov 29, 2017)

Tonight I was in downtown Flagstaff and strolled over to the station between the numerous long freight trains. I asked the gent on duty in the station what he knew about the discontinuance of the Williams Junction stop. He has only heard something about it, and does not rely on rumors, and has heard nothing official. Another poster earlier in this thread quoted a notice, which I do not find on the Amtrak website, that a shuttle was to be provided to from Flagstaff to the Holiday Inn Express in Williams. I have punched in reservation dates for January and it says there are no trains serving this station. The way it reads now, January 1 will be the last day of service to Williams Junction. To me this indicates one of two things: 1. Amtrak intends to completely drop service to Williams after January 1 ( and no reservations are currently being accepted ) or 2:they are still trying to hammer out details of how to arrange a shuttle. In previous posts, while i am not pleased about this, I can see some of the reasons for the Grand Canyon Railway Hotel dropping out of the picture. I would think that Arizona Shuttle, which provides frequent service to Phoenix Airport and also to Grand Canyon via Williams, could be contracted to meet the Amtrak trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 30, 2017)

When I rode the Chief last year, I had dinner with a man who was also going on the Grand Canyon railway. I was getting off in williams, and he was going on to Flafstaff and taking a bus from there. He ended up in Williams the next day, so I am assuming that bus does exist?


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## greatcats (Nov 30, 2017)

Yes, there are I believe two, sometimes three trips per day that operate Flagstaff- Williams- Grand Canyon ( South Rim. ). They do not correspond with the times of the Amtrak train, although they originate at Flagstaff station.

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## KnightRail (Nov 30, 2017)

Greatcats, what is unclear at this point?, other than the gent in Flagstaff hasnt been reading his advisories.

Train service to Williams Junction(platform in the woods) is totally going away in the new year. No Amtrak train will stop anywhere in Williams. Any travel to Williams by Amtrak train will be via Flagstaff. The new thruway services operated by Arizona shuttle are defenitly loaded and available to book. City code Williams, AZ - Holiday Inn Express (WMH)

FLG-WMH

8954 6:00a>6:45a

8953 10:10p>10:55p

WMH-FLG

8854 4:15a>5:00a

8853 7:30p>8:15p

While some of the times do not correspond exactly with train times, these are the established thruway connections for Williams for Trains 3 & 4.


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## greatcats (Dec 1, 2017)

Sure wasn't clear to me, and I have been poking around Williams and Flagstaff asking questions. I don't see any service advisory on Amtrak website.. So, anyway, thank you for the information. I am not going to use this service, but since I am a tour guide of sorts for National Park Service I give out all kinds of advice. It is a rather time wasting proposition to and from the west, more practical to and from the east.


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## Ryan (Dec 1, 2017)

If you try to book travel after the first of the year to WMA, it shows you going through Flagstaff to WMH, and then a self transfer to WMA.


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## neroden (Dec 3, 2017)

Well, at least they got the bus connection to both trains, but it's going to be *quite unpopular* with the 11 PM hike along the streets of Williams.


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## greatcats (Dec 3, 2017)

How about the4am bike?

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## TiBike (Dec 3, 2017)

No change for cyclists. No baggage service at Williams, so no bikes, except folders. They'd have to go to Flagstaff anyway. It's actually a service upgrade: the thruway is a new Plan B, if the weather or arrival times or whatever turn ugly.

It would be different if Amtrak long distance staff could ever figure out how to deal with a bicycle at a station that doesn't have baggage service. Maybe they could ask the 8 year old kids who have figured out how to do it on the corridor trains?



greatcats said:


> How about the4am bike?


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## TinCan782 (Dec 3, 2017)

TiBike said:


> No change for cyclists. No baggage service at Williams, so no bikes, except folders. They'd have to go to Flagstaff anyway. It's actually a service upgrade: the thruway is a new Plan B, if the weather or arrival times or whatever turn ugly.
> 
> It would be different if Amtrak long distance staff could ever figure out how to deal with a bicycle at a station that doesn't have baggage service. Maybe they could ask the 8 year old kids who have figured out how to do it on the corridor trains?
> 
> ...


I think *greatcats *meant "hike" in response to *neroden's *post "...it's going to be *quite unpopular* with the 11 PM hike along the streets of Williams.


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## TiBike (Dec 3, 2017)

Fair enough.



FrensicPic said:


> I think *greatcats *meant "hike" in response to *neroden's *post "...it's going to be *quite unpopular* with the 11 PM hike along the streets of Williams.


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## greatcats (Dec 3, 2017)

Yes, I meant hike. WILLIAMS is not exactly a hopping place at 4 am.

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## TiBike (Dec 3, 2017)

Typo or not, I thank you for it. Led me to this:

Man vs. Machine Bike Race

Love the picture – that's a t-shirt I'd wear with pride:


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## TinCan782 (Dec 3, 2017)

TiBike said:


> Typo or not, I thank you for it. Led me to this:
> 
> Man vs. Machine Bike Race
> 
> Love the picture – that's a t-shirt I'd wear with pride:


I've seen promos for the Man vs Machine event the past couple of years. A cyclist co-worker took interest in the event. I'll have to show him your photo / T-shirt at work tomorrow!


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