# Three Rivers Appreciation Thread



## DowneasterPassenger

Who here remembers the Three Rivers fondly?

We know it's low on the list of "bring back" trains (Sunset Limited, Desert Wind, daily Cardinal service etc. all seem ahead of Three Rivers).

What I liked was the late afternoon departure from Philadelphia for the one-seat ride to Chicago.

I'm sure some folks in Ohio miss this train too.


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## Pastor Dave

I travelled the Three Rivers quite a few times - including one memorable December when we had a blizzard where at each stop the snow came blowing in through the vestibule. It was a great Philadelphia - Chicago run and so much less of a hassle than going to Washington, New York or waiting 4 hours in Pittsburgh for the Capitol Limited.


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## DowneasterPassenger

Pastor Dave said:


> I travelled the Three Rivers quite a few times - including one memorable December when we had a blizzard where at each stop the snow came blowing in through the vestibule. It was a great Philadelphia - Chicago run and so much less of a hassle than going to Washington, New York or waiting 4 hours in Pittsburgh for the Capitol Limited.


Three Rivers was my first snow-on-the-train experience too. Since then I've also experienced snowy vestibules on the LSL too.


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## the_traveler

I remember the Three Rivers, but never rode on that named train. I did ride on the (Amtrak) Broadway Limited! I do agree that I like the earlier arrival and later departure.


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## DowneasterPassenger

Pastor Dave said:


> It was a great Philadelphia - Chicago run and so much less of a hassle than going to Washington, New York or waiting 4 hours in Pittsburgh for the Capitol Limited.


I remember one trip departing Bethlehem, PA at 10am by bus, and then actually waiting around 30th St. Sta. with several hours to kill, before I boarded the TR for a trip to California.


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## DowneasterPassenger

the_traveler said:


> I remember the Three Rivers, but never rode on that named train. I did ride on the (Amtrak) Broadway Limited! I do agree that I like the earlier arrival and later departure.


What's the difference between the BR and TL? Same exact route and timetable, or different?


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## wayman

I liked it, and I miss it ... but my nostalgia is for a train from Philadelphia to Chicago which serves communities at reasonable times, and for a time only eight or so years ago when there were 4.5 East-Chicago trains per day instead of 2.5 today. I don't miss the Three Rivers in particular; I miss frequency and options.

I'd put a daily Cardinal ahead of a new train on my wish list, simply because it seems like with some ingenuity it could be achieved now (see my suggestion on the Cardinal thread). But a new Broadway Limited -- with a diner and a sleeper -- is on my "when the Viewliners arrive" wish list. If we're going to add a long-distance train, let's do it right this time -- not a mail train that also carries some coaches and a cafe car.


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## delvyrails

SanJoaquinRider said:


> Who here remembers the Three Rivers fondly?
> We know it's low on the list of "bring back" trains (Sunset Limited, Desert Wind, daily Cardinal service etc. all seem ahead of Three Rivers).
> 
> What I liked was the late afternoon departure from Philadelphia for the one-seat ride to Chicago.
> 
> I'm sure some folks in Ohio miss this train too.


We can soon "celebrate" :angry: the anniversary of its demise five years ago. The last run was March 7, 2005.


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## MikefromCrete

SanJoaquinRider said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember the Three Rivers, but never rode on that named train. I did ride on the (Amtrak) Broadway Limited! I do agree that I like the earlier arrival and later departure.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the difference between the BR and TL? Same exact route and timetable, or different?
Click to expand...

The original Amtrak Broadway operated on the old Pennsylvania Railroad through Lima, Ohio, and Fort Wayne, Ind. It was the original NYC-CHI train operated by Amtrak. The Lake Shore Limited didn't even exist on May 1,1971. It was brought back as a state-sponsored run, then became part of the national system. Conrail basically demoted the old PRR route west of central Ohio, focusing on the old NYC Water Level Route. Today, the old PRR, at last in Indiana, is a short line.

The Three Rivers was basically a freight/express operation with a couple of passenger cars thrown into the mix. I believe it only ran CHI-PHIL, and gave some much needed daytime service to Cleveland and the rest of Ohio.

When the freight/express faded away after Gunn found out the Warrington-originated scheme didn't make any money, the Three Rivers went away with it, along with the Lake Country Limited and the Kentucky Cardinal. along with those Warrington/freight trains that never such as the NYC-CHI Skyline, the extension of the Crescent to Dallas via Meridian, MIss., and a cross-country luxury run.

Bringing back a Broadway/Three Rivers run from CHI to NYC via PITT and PHIL is not a bad idea. GML seems convinced that it will return with the order for new single level cars. I'm not so sure.


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## battalion51

I know most people hated the Mail and Express business, mostly because it generally created inconvenient times for many of the trains, and wasn't practical for running many of the services. But I tell you what, in some places it seemed to make sense. When you could put RoadRailers on the Palmetto bug and Silver Star at JAX for the run from JAX to Philly, you didn't have inconvenient times, and you had extra revenue coming on those trains. And don't forget that even the Pride and Joy (Auto Train) carried RoadRailers during crush times for mail around the holidays. Trains have, until very recently, always carried mail. And to me it's a shame that those days are gone. Am I suggesting that Amtrak should have delayed trains and put in extra hours to a schedule for mail handling, no. But if you could do it with just a couple of extra minutes on the schedule like they did on Silver Service, then why not?

By the way, I still would've loved to see the Star or Palmetto bug flying down the NEC with the diesels humming at 90 MPH with RoadRailers in tow.


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## AlanB

MikefromCrete said:


> The Three Rivers was basically a freight/express operation with a couple of passenger cars thrown into the mix. I believe it only ran CHI-PHIL, and gave some much needed daytime service to Cleveland and the rest of Ohio. When the freight/express faded away after Gunn found out the Warrington-originated scheme didn't make any money, the Three Rivers went away with it, along with the Lake Country Limited and the Kentucky Cardinal. along with those Warrington/freight trains that never such as the NYC-CHI Skyline, the extension of the Crescent to Dallas via Meridian, MIss., and a cross-country luxury run.
> 
> Bringing back a Broadway/Three Rivers run from CHI to NYC via PITT and PHIL is not a bad idea. GML seems convinced that it will return with the order for new single level cars. I'm not so sure.


You're confusing the Three Rivers with the Pennsylvanian. The Pennsy was a daylight trian across Ohio, serving Cleveland in daylight at all times. It ran with no sleepers and only coaches and a cafe car. And IIRC, at varrying times it terminated in NY and Philly. It arrived into Chicago around midnight and left at like 6:00 AM.

The Three Rivers ran further south in Ohio and overnight through Ohio, like the LSL & Capitol. It carried sleepers, but no diner only a cafe car.


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## AlanB

I'm not sure that I'd say I remember it fondly, but then I only rode it once. It was however the one and only time I ever slept in a Heritage sleeper which I'm glad I got the chance to do, before they were retired.

But it did give one yet another alternative to go between Chicago and NY by train, and it did serve many cities that needed trains. It gave Pittsburgh a second sleeper train, it gave Harrisburg a sleeper train, and it served cities in Ohio that are now totally without rail service, and created a route through central Ohio, where no passenger trains run today.


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## MikefromCrete

AlanB said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Three Rivers was basically a freight/express operation with a couple of passenger cars thrown into the mix. I believe it only ran CHI-PHIL, and gave some much needed daytime service to Cleveland and the rest of Ohio. When the freight/express faded away after Gunn found out the Warrington-originated scheme didn't make any money, the Three Rivers went away with it, along with the Lake Country Limited and the Kentucky Cardinal. along with those Warrington/freight trains that never such as the NYC-CHI Skyline, the extension of the Crescent to Dallas via Meridian, MIss., and a cross-country luxury run.
> 
> Bringing back a Broadway/Three Rivers run from CHI to NYC via PITT and PHIL is not a bad idea. GML seems convinced that it will return with the order for new single level cars. I'm not so sure.
> 
> 
> 
> You're confusing the Three Rivers with the Pennsylvanian. The Pennsy was a daylight trian across Ohio, serving Cleveland in daylight at all times. It ran with no sleepers and only coaches and a cafe car. And IIRC, at varrying times it terminated in NY and Philly. It arrived into Chicago around midnight and left at like 6:00 AM.
> 
> The Three Rivers ran further south in Ohio and overnight through Ohio, like the LSL & Capitol. It carried sleepers, but no diner only a cafe car.
Click to expand...

You're right, Alan, I forgot about the Pennsylvanian's extension to Chicago. I believe it followed the Capital route through Cleveland, with the Three Rivers following the old PRR routing. Nothing like ranting and raving without the facts. Sorry about that.

Both trains, however, were part of the Warrington freight/express program and were operated as an accommodation to that program.


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## MikefromCrete

battalion51 said:


> I know most people hated the Mail and Express business, mostly because it generally created inconvenient times for many of the trains, and wasn't practical for running many of the services. But I tell you what, in some places it seemed to make sense. When you could put RoadRailers on the Palmetto bug and Silver Star at JAX for the run from JAX to Philly, you didn't have inconvenient times, and you had extra revenue coming on those trains. And don't forget that even the Pride and Joy (Auto Train) carried RoadRailers during crush times for mail around the holidays. Trains have, until very recently, always carried mail. And to me it's a shame that those days are gone. Am I suggesting that Amtrak should have delayed trains and put in extra hours to a schedule for mail handling, no. But if you could do it with just a couple of extra minutes on the schedule like they did on Silver Service, then why not?
> By the way, I still would've loved to see the Star or Palmetto bug flying down the NEC with the diesels humming at 90 MPH with RoadRailers in tow.


It seemed a good idea at the time, but it served to delay trains, it created a wedge between Amtrak and the freight railroads (especially UP) and apparently it didn't make any money! A great deal of the traffic could be defined as freight, not mail and express (the traditional cargo carried on passenger trains) which upset the freight railroads and probably lead to a lot of the delays to passenger trains by freight rail dispatchers, treating Amtrak trains like the freight trains of other railroads (i.e. the competition).

This is also the first time I've heard that the auto train carried roadrailers.


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## MikefromCrete

MikefromCrete said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Three Rivers was basically a freight/express operation with a couple of passenger cars thrown into the mix. I believe it only ran CHI-PHIL, and gave some much needed daytime service to Cleveland and the rest of Ohio. When the freight/express faded away after Gunn found out the Warrington-originated scheme didn't make any money, the Three Rivers went away with it, along with the Lake Country Limited and the Kentucky Cardinal. along with those Warrington/freight trains that never such as the NYC-CHI Skyline, the extension of the Crescent to Dallas via Meridian, MIss., and a cross-country luxury run.
> 
> Bringing back a Broadway/Three Rivers run from CHI to NYC via PITT and PHIL is not a bad idea. GML seems convinced that it will return with the order for new single level cars. I'm not so sure.
> 
> 
> 
> You're confusing the Three Rivers with the Pennsylvanian. The Pennsy was a daylight trian across Ohio, serving Cleveland in daylight at all times. It ran with no sleepers and only coaches and a cafe car. And IIRC, at varrying times it terminated in NY and Philly. It arrived into Chicago around midnight and left at like 6:00 AM.
> 
> The Three Rivers ran further south in Ohio and overnight through Ohio, like the LSL & Capitol. It carried sleepers, but no diner only a cafe car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right, Alan, I forgot about the Pennsylvanian's extension to Chicago. I believe it followed the Capital route through Cleveland, with the Three Rivers following the old PRR routing. Nothing like ranting and raving without the facts. Sorry about that.
> 
> Both trains, however, were part of the Warrington freight/express program and were operated as an accommodation to that program.
Click to expand...

Let me correct myself. The Three Rivers used the CSX (former B&0) route, not the PRR. I probably should have not commented on this subject at all.


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## Steve4031

The Broadway Limited was one of my favorite trains. It provided three first in my railfan career.

The second time I rode it, we detoured on the NYC line and then to Alliance because of a freight derailment. It was my first detour. We were 6 hours late. On the return It was my first solo overnight trip back in 70's when I was 10 years old. I made another solo trip overnight on this train in a slumbercoach a few years later.

IMHO opionion, the trains heydey was when it was a complete heritage fleet consist in the early 80's


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## jis

MikefromCrete said:


> You're right, Alan, I forgot about the Pennsylvanian's extension to Chicago. I believe it followed the Capital route through Cleveland, with the Three Rivers following the old PRR routing. Nothing like ranting and raving without the facts. Sorry about that.
> 
> Both trains, however, were part of the Warrington freight/express program and were operated as an accommodation to that program.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me correct myself. The Three Rivers used the CSX (former B&0) route, not the PRR. I probably should have not commented on this subject at all.
Click to expand...

Actually the sequence of events was as follows:

1. There was Amtrak Broadway Limited which ran on the Conrail ex-PRR Fort Wayne line the original Broadway Limited route. I traveled on this train. There was also National Limited which followed the same route as Broadway Ltd upto Pittsburgh and headed off to St Louis. Broadway carried a Washington Section which was split/joined variously at Philly or Harrisburg depending on which year one is talking about.

2. Conrail downgraded the Fort Wayne line leading to the Broadway Limited being routed over CSX west of Newcastle PA, through Youngstown, Akron, Garrett and Nappanee. I traveled on this train. At this time Capitol Ltd. operated on CSX from DC to Pittsburgh and then on Conrail through Alliance to Cleveland and then along the ex-NYC water level route.

3. Broadway Limited was discontinued. Much hue and cry ensued

4. Broadway Limited via CSX west of Pittsburgh was re-incarnated as Three Rivers since initially the re-incarnated train did not have any sleepers. Usual excuse, we don't have enough working Sleepers. Much hue and cry ensued.

5. Three Rivers got a Heritage sleeper taken out of mothballs and patched up for the service.

..... The rest y'all already know.

I never had a chance to travel by the Three Rivers. But when the Broadway existed it was one of my favorite trains. There was nothing as enchanting as having breakfast in the Diner while it descended down Juniata Valley to a frozen Susquehanna River deep in the winter. I still have pictures that bring back those fond memories. And.... Most importantly.... it had a Slumbercoach!!!

All this from somewhat fuzzy memory hence no specific dates. I am sure experts will find some errors in detail but I think the basic shape of things were as stated above.


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## railiner

MikefromCrete said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know most people hated the Mail and Express business, mostly because it generally created inconvenient times for many of the trains, and wasn't practical for running many of the services. But I tell you what, in some places it seemed to make sense. When you could put RoadRailers on the Palmetto bug and Silver Star at JAX for the run from JAX to Philly, you didn't have inconvenient times, and you had extra revenue coming on those trains. And don't forget that even the Pride and Joy (Auto Train) carried RoadRailers during crush times for mail around the holidays. Trains have, until very recently, always carried mail. And to me it's a shame that those days are gone. Am I suggesting that Amtrak should have delayed trains and put in extra hours to a schedule for mail handling, no. But if you could do it with just a couple of extra minutes on the schedule like they did on Silver Service, then why not?
> By the way, I still would've loved to see the Star or Palmetto bug flying down the NEC with the diesels humming at 90 MPH with RoadRailers in tow.
> 
> 
> 
> It seemed a good idea at the time, but it served to delay trains, it created a wedge between Amtrak and the freight railroads (especially UP) and apparently it didn't make any money! A great deal of the traffic could be defined as freight, not mail and express (the traditional cargo carried on passenger trains) which upset the freight railroads and probably lead to a lot of the delays to passenger trains by freight rail dispatchers, treating Amtrak trains like the freight trains of other railroads (i.e. the competition).
> 
> This is also the first time I've heard that the auto train carried roadrailers.
Click to expand...

I agree with this poster. Some of you may recall when Amtrak ran an all mail train from Boston to New York via Springfield on an overnight schedule. It only carried baggage cars with mail containers.

Well Conrail put the kabosh to that. They insisted that the train have at least one coach on their portion from Boston to Springfield, as they viewed it as a competing freight train which Amtrak had no business running. Amtrak was forced to go along or else they would have to run it on their own NEC route.

I fondly recall the original PRR Broadway Limited, one of my favorites. Even the Penn Central took better care of it then the rest of their trains.

When Amtrak started, they quickly assembled some of their best inherited equipment, and refurbished them for The Broadway. It's first schedule on Amtrak was a still respectable 17 hours, departing NYP 4:55 PM and arriving CHI at 9:00 AM. It ran from New York via the "New York and Pittsburgh Subway" by Zoo Tower, and stopped at PHN to serve Philadelphia. It ran with its splendid GG1's from New York all the way to Harrisburg, changing there to E8's or E9's, and also picked up cars coming up from WAS.

I would love to see Amtrak bring back the Broadway, running NYP-PGH-CLE-CHI, with limited intermediate stops to expedite the schedule.


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## battalion51

It's a little hard to tell from this angle, but this picture is from 2002 of a cut of RoadRailers coupled up to the 556 in the yard at Sanford before they started to double out for the afternoon.







Like I said before, there were definite downfalls to the mail and express business. But if Amtrak could've continued to do it right as it had been done for many years then they should've been able to see at least a little bit of a profit. Like many things in the Warrington era, Amtrak bit off more than it could chew.


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## sueb

> I fondly recall the original PRR Broadway Limited, one of my favorites. Even the Penn Central took better care of it then the rest of their trains.When Amtrak started, they quickly assembled some of their best inherited equipment, and refurbished them for The Broadway. It's first schedule on Amtrak was a still respectable 17 hours, departing NYP 4:55 PM and arriving CHI at 9:00 AM. It ran from New York via the "New York and Pittsburgh Subway" by Zoo Tower, and stopped at PHN to serve Philadelphia. It ran with its splendid GG1's from New York all the way to Harrisburg, changing there to E8's or E9's, and also picked up cars coming up from WAS.
> 
> I would love to see Amtrak bring back the Broadway, running NYP-PGH-CLE-CHI, with limited intermediate stops to expedite the schedule.


NO WAY can a train serve Phila using PHN (aka North Philadelphia Station). It is in a horrible neighborhood and you feel like you are in an "after the bomb" movie standing on the platform watching the commuter trains wiz by (most don't stop at PHN). I've been there within the last year and I know whereof I speak. That's what happens if you sleep past 30th St on the Keystone in the morning.


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## Ryan

Yes, but was it like that back in the '70's?


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## delvyrails

sueb said:


> I fondly recall the original PRR Broadway Limited, one of my favorites. Even the Penn Central took better care of it then the rest of their trains.When Amtrak started, they quickly assembled some of their best inherited equipment, and refurbished them for The Broadway. It's first schedule on Amtrak was a still respectable 17 hours, departing NYP 4:55 PM and arriving CHI at 9:00 AM. It ran from New York via the "New York and Pittsburgh Subway" by Zoo Tower, and stopped at PHN to serve Philadelphia. It ran with its splendid GG1's from New York all the way to Harrisburg, changing there to E8's or E9's, and also picked up cars coming up from WAS.
> 
> I would love to see Amtrak bring back the Broadway, running NYP-PGH-CLE-CHI, with limited intermediate stops to expedite the schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> NO WAY can a train serve Phila using PHN (aka North Philadelphia Station). It is in a horrible neighborhood and you feel like you are in an "after the bomb" movie standing on the platform watching the commuter trains wiz by (most don't stop at PHN). I've been there within the last year and I know whereof I speak. That's what happens if you sleep past 30th St on the Keystone in the morning.
Click to expand...

I think only nostalgia people would want to revive the Broadway Limited as such, including its stop at North Philadelphia. It ran that way because two railroads were trying to offer competitive services out of New York City. With Amtrak, specialization is possible and more effective. 30th Street Station is a hub for Amtrak and commuter trains and transit.

It would cost less and otherwise make more sense to run a 30th Street-Chicago train, first as a part of the Capitol Limited west of Pittsburgh (two trains were merged there for 11 months in 1996), and later as a separate train.

Let New York have its Lake Shore and Philly have its "Independence Limited". If metro Portland at 1.9 million can justify its own section of the Empire Builder to Chicago, then metro Philadelphia at 6.7 million certainly can support a through train or through section of a train to Chicago.


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## the_traveler

delvyrails said:


> sueb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to see Amtrak bring back the Broadway, running NYP-PGH-CLE-CHI, with limited intermediate stops to expedite the schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> NO WAY can a train serve Phila using PHN (aka North Philadelphia Station).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think only nostalgia people would want to revive the Broadway Limited as such, including its stop at North Philadelphia.
Click to expand...

When I rode the Broadway Limited, I don't think it stopped at North Philadelphia - but it certainly stopped at 30th Street Station, then I rode backwards from PHL-NYP!


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## Green Maned Lion

sueb said:


> NO WAY can a train serve Phila using PHN (aka North Philadelphia Station). It is in a horrible neighborhood and you feel like you are in an "after the bomb" movie standing on the platform watching the commuter trains wiz by (most don't stop at PHN). I've been there within the last year and I know whereof I speak. That's what happens if you sleep past 30th St on the Keystone in the morning.


The _Broadway Limited_'s service of Philadelphia was somewhat incidental. The _Broadway Limited_ was the Pennsy's competitor to New York Central's more famous _Twentieth Century Limited_. As such, its speed New York to Chicago was more important than its comfortable service of Philly. If I recall correctly, the _Twentieth Century Limited_ left Grand Central Terminal, stopped at Croton-Harmon to switch to steam or diesel power and did not make another passenger stop until Englewood just outside of Chicago.

The _Broadway Limited_, which was trying to match it, had a faster route and thus could afford (and conversely, could not afford not) to make passenger stops at Newark, North Philadelphia, Paoli, Harrisburg (engine change), Fort Wayne, Englewood, and Chicago. If it had stopped at Philadelphia, with its convoluted track arrangement, the train would have had to move backward NYP-PHL (you can't turn the consist to get onto the Broadway from Philly), and it could not have possibly made the the 15.5 hour carded time the train achieved at its peak. Bypassing 30th street via Zoo interlocking made all of that non-issues.

There were a dozen other trains that handled Philly passengers, some of them quite fast such as the _Liberty Limited_. Under current circumstances, of course, the train has no observation car, does not need to hit a 15.5 hour time, and only needs to compete with the Lake Shore Limited's 19 hour carding. It can and definitely will serve Philadelphia directly.

And by the way, the Broadway is coming back. Pennsylvania is interested in a second Pittsburgh train, passengers exist for daytime service through Cleveland and such (this will allow the timing of one of the NY-Chicago trains to service it in the daytime), and enough sleeper passengers do the Pittsburgh transfer to justify sleeper service.

From what I understand, it will offset the Pennsy by about 6 hours, and it will run slightly more express. From what I understand, it will take over the LSL's departure time, NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-PAO-HAR-ALT-PGH-ALC-CLE-TOL-ELK-SOB-CHI. It should be able to leave by about 4:15 and hit Chicago by 9:00.

The LSL will move up to a 8:30 departure, allowing it to hit Albany by 10:00. It will serve most of upstate NY overnight (which is fine, it can use the later departure- it gets plenty of daytime service, and producing a comfortable night train for Buffalo at around 6AM). It will then serve Cleveland and west in daylight hours arriving in Chicago at about 4 in the afternoon.


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## PRR 60

Green Maned Lion said:


> ...The _Broadway Limited_'s service of Philadelphia was somewhat incidental. The _Broadway Limited_ was the Pennsy's competitor to New York Central's more famous _Twentieth Century Limited_. As such, its speed New York to Chicago was more important than its comfortable service of Philly. If I recall correctly, the _Twentieth Century Limited_ left Grand Central Terminal, stopped at Croton-Harmon to switch to steam or diesel power and did not make another passenger stop until Englewood just outside of Chicago.
> The _Broadway Limited_, which was trying to match it, had a faster route and thus could afford (and conversely, could not afford not) to make passenger stops at Newark, North Philadelphia, Paoli, Harrisburg (engine change), Fort Wayne, Englewood, and Chicago. If it had stopped at Philadelphia, with its convoluted track arrangement, the train would have had to move backward NYP-PHL (you can't turn the consist to get onto the Broadway from Philly), and it could not have possibly made the the 15.5 hour carded time the train achieved at its peak. Bypassing 30th street via Zoo interlocking made all of that non-issues.
> 
> There were a dozen other trains that handled Philly passengers, some of them quite fast such as the _Liberty Limited_. Under current circumstances, of course, the train has no observation car, does not need to hit a 15.5 hour time, and only needs to compete with the Lake Shore Limited's 19 hour carding. It can and definitely will serve Philadelphia directly.


That schedule was, of course, the real Broadway Limited. The all-Pullman Broadway - PRR 28 and 29 - also stopped at Altoona, Pittsburgh, and Crestine OH. The westbound stops from New York west to and including Pittsburgh were to receive passengers only. Those stops were to discharge only for the eastbound trains. In the PRR era, very few westbound trains called at 30th Street. The westbound called at North Philly at 7:21pm. Many a time I was on the platform with my dad to watch it come through. And make no mistake - the Broadway did a brisk business at North Philly.

The Penn Central and Amtrak versions of the Broadway Limited were impostors. The real Broadway Limited never made it to the Amtrak era. That train died on December 12, 1967: just 10 days after the New York Central pulled the plug on the 20th Century Limited. The train that survived into Amtrak carried the Broadway name, but it was actually the PRR's "General", trains 48 and 49. It ran on the same schedule as the General, with the same coach and sleeper consist as the General, and even the same train numbers as the General. If it quacks like a duck... The old Broadway's schedule was retired with the train, as were the train numbers 28 and 29, the all-Pullman consist, and the famed observation lounge.

A train carrying the Broadway Limited name made it to Amtrak, but the Broadway Limited did not.


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## railiner

Lots of good recalls in these posts!

Back in the PRR era, most New York to the west through trains took the "subway" route with the exception of the last departure--The Pennsylvania Limited, which did run backwards from New York to 30th Street Station, Philadelphia, and then continue onward to Chicago.

I don't even know if the bypass at Zoo Tower is even there anymore, it certainly hasn't been used by any regular passenger trains since the last New York to Harrisburg (was it called the Valley Forge?) train used it years ago.

Anyway, I like the idea of a revived train--call it the Broadway if you will, or whatever, running NYP PHL HAR ALT PGH CLE TOL SOB CHI. And yes, for operational convenience run it backwards from NYP to PHL. New York is too big a market to ignore and leave to its Lakeshore only.


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## sueb

Ryan said:


> Yes, but was it like that back in the '70's?


Yes, pretty much. I rode the Broadway Limited to CHI as a graduate student and got on the train at PHN. Felt scary the whole time.


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## DowneasterPassenger

railiner said:


> Lots of good recalls in these posts!Back in the PRR era, most New York to the west through trains took the "subway" route with the exception of the last departure--The Pennsylvania Limited, which did run backwards from New York to 30th Street Station, Philadelphia, and then continue onward to Chicago.


Why is it called the "subway" route?


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## DowneasterPassenger

I recall reading somewhere that PRR once had plans to build a big loop at PHL around where University City is now, so that NYP-CHI trains could stop in PHL without reversing.


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## delvyrails

I have no pipeline to Amtrak management's thinking of the moment, but I am familiar with transportation cost structure, having done a lot of study in the past of SEPTA's commuter rail cost model. One of the biggest cost centers in any passenger rail system is the amount of equipment needed, in terms of both capital and operating costs.

It is most desirable to operate an East Coast-Midwest train with just two equipment sets, instead of the three that the Capitol Limited uses. Avoid the two hour run up to New York's Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard with its many inefficiency problems. Without that requirement, a train can be turned at Philadelphia in about seven hours, a little less in Chicago. The average westbound/eastbound run is about 17-1/3 hours between Philadelphia and Chicago, making Philly the closest city in travel time between the four big East Coast cities and Chicago. Amtrak needs to keep its trains in motion doing diferent things without duplication to make money.

So I think this is the wiser alternative, although I will agree that recent history seems to show that New York City has the economic/political clout to get what it wants, which often is more than it deserves!


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## jis

delvyrails said:


> It is most desirable to operate an East Coast-Midwest train with just two equipment sets, instead of the three that the Capitol Limited uses. Avoid the two hour run up to New York's Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard with its many inefficiency problems.


Capitol Limited runs upto New York? :unsure:


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## Jersey Jeff

I can't say that I remember the Three Rivers "fondly" as indicated by my last trip on that train.

I rode from NJ to Pgh frequently in the 1990s and later, and I recall the Pennsy and Three Rivers stopping in Metropark, New Brunswick or Princeton Junction. Now the Pennsy only serves NWK and TRE in the Garden State.


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## jis

Jersey Jeff said:


> I rode from NJ to Pgh frequently in the 1990s and later, and I recall the Pennsy and Three Rivers stopping in Metropark, New Brunswick or Princeton Junction. Now the Pennsy only serves NWK and TRE in the Garden State.


As a matter of fact Pennsy and a preponderance of all Keystone Service trains only serve NWK and TRE in NJ.


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## Green Maned Lion

delvyrails said:


> I have no pipeline to Amtrak management's thinking of the moment, but I am familiar with transportation cost structure, having done a lot of study in the past of SEPTA's commuter rail cost model. One of the biggest cost centers in any passenger rail system is the amount of equipment needed, in terms of both capital and operating costs.
> It is most desirable to operate an East Coast-Midwest train with just two equipment sets, instead of the three that the Capitol Limited uses. Avoid the two hour run up to New York's Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard with its many inefficiency problems. Without that requirement, a train can be turned at Philadelphia in about seven hours, a little less in Chicago. The average westbound/eastbound run is about 17-1/3 hours between Philadelphia and Chicago, making Philly the closest city in travel time between the four big East Coast cities and Chicago. Amtrak needs to keep its trains in motion doing diferent things without duplication to make money.
> 
> So I think this is the wiser alternative, although I will agree that recent history seems to show that New York City has the economic/political clout to get what it wants, which often is more than it deserves!


Your information on Septa cost modeling is based on a system doing short runs with more equipment then it needs. Amtrak over-runs its equipment by way too much as it is. You need three sets even to go just PHL-CHI. Plus the whole single-seat ride concept.

Septa trains run slow, they run sets with not much stress, and they are low-complexity trains (hell, they don't even have freakin' bathrooms!) Amtrak trains will do 110 mph NYP to Harrisburg. They are complex, and they will be bouncing over trains that really aren't ideal for passenger trains for about 18 hours each way. They need rest, time to cool down, to be carefully cleaned and maintained, to have problems fixed.


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## railiner

SanJoaquinRider said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of good recalls in these posts!Back in the PRR era, most New York to the west through trains took the "subway" route with the exception of the last departure--The Pennsylvania Limited, which did run backwards from New York to 30th Street Station, Philadelphia, and then continue onward to Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it called the "subway" route?
Click to expand...

It was a slang term for the underpass the trains negotiated at Zoo Tower especially on eastward trips. It was typical of PRR's famous heavy engineering to make grade-separated crossings of busy junctions to make them faster and safer. It was the "New York and Pittsburgh subway", as that was the primary user of that route.


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## railiner

delvyrails said:


> I have no pipeline to Amtrak management's thinking of the moment, but I am familiar with transportation cost structure, having done a lot of study in the past of SEPTA's commuter rail cost model. One of the biggest cost centers in any passenger rail system is the amount of equipment needed, in terms of both capital and operating costs.
> It is most desirable to operate an East Coast-Midwest train with just two equipment sets, instead of the three that the Capitol Limited uses. Avoid the two hour run up to New York's Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard with its many inefficiency problems. Without that requirement, a train can be turned at Philadelphia in about seven hours, a little less in Chicago. The average westbound/eastbound run is about 17-1/3 hours between Philadelphia and Chicago, making Philly the closest city in travel time between the four big East Coast cities and Chicago. Amtrak needs to keep its trains in motion doing diferent things without duplication to make money.
> 
> So I think this is the wiser alternative, although I will agree that recent history seems to show that New York City has the economic/political clout to get what it wants, which often is more than it deserves!


We will have to disagree on your last point, other than New York has the "economic clout" simply because that is where people are travelling to and from.

We could use your other point about "short-turning" a train to say cut the through trains from Florida and the Crescent at WAS. Sure, that would perhaps save a trainset, but at what cost? Passengers want a one seat (or bed) ride, and changing trains at WAS would not help boost ridership.

I like the way they are run at present. In case of extreme delays, Amtrak always has the option to turn a train at WAS if necessary.


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## delvyrails

railiner said:


> delvyrails said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no pipeline to Amtrak management's thinking of the moment, but I am familiar with transportation cost structure, having done a lot of study in the past of SEPTA's commuter rail cost model. One of the biggest cost centers in any passenger rail system is the amount of equipment needed, in terms of both capital and operating costs.
> It is most desirable to operate an East Coast-Midwest train with just two equipment sets, instead of the three that the Capitol Limited uses. Avoid the two hour run up to New York's Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard with its many inefficiency problems. Without that requirement, a train can be turned at Philadelphia in about seven hours, a little less in Chicago. The average westbound/eastbound run is about 17-1/3 hours between Philadelphia and Chicago, making Philly the closest city in travel time between the four big East Coast cities and Chicago. Amtrak needs to keep its trains in motion doing diferent things without duplication to make money.
> 
> So I think this is the wiser alternative, although I will agree that recent history seems to show that New York City has the economic/political clout to get what it wants, which often is more than it deserves!
> 
> 
> 
> We will have to disagree on your last point, other than New York has the "economic clout" simply because that is where people are travelling to and from.
> 
> We could use your other point about "short-turning" a train to say cut the through trains from Florida and the Crescent at WAS. Sure, that would perhaps save a trainset, but at what cost? Passengers want a one seat (or bed) ride, and changing trains at WAS would not help boost ridership.
> 
> I like the way they are run at present. In case of extreme delays, Amtrak always has the option to turn a train at WAS if necessary.
Click to expand...

1. Don't ascribe to me the idea of "short turning" the Crescent and Silver Service trains at Washington. That's your idea, not mine.

2. A Philadelphia-Chicago train certainly could be run with two equipment sets if the proper scheduling is chosen. A one-night-out train on a 17:20 average run would be turned in 6:40. Look what turnarounds Amtrak does at Seattle and Portland with the two-nights-out Empire Builder: 6:15 and 6:35.

3. In theory, the Capitol could also be run with two sets, but that train has a longer run time and has connections to protect at both ends of its route.

4. Amtrak can't make money while its trains sit still. This two-set Philly-Chicago plan runs each set 834 miles per day per set, better utilization than that of most Amtrak trains.


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## Green Maned Lion

delvyrails said:


> 2. A Philadelphia-Chicago train certainly could be run with two equipment sets if the proper scheduling is chosen. A one-night-out train on a 17:20 average run would be turned in 6:40. Look what turnarounds Amtrak does at Seattle and Portland with the two-nights-out Empire Builder: 6:15 and 6:35.


You can turn that equipment that fast for one end of its turn, but not both. It needs to be thoroughly maintained on one end of its trip. You need three sets of equipment for this train. Period. Besides, setting up a base for maintaining LD equipment in Philly is nuts too. Any money they saved would be blown on mechanical at Philly.


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## rile42

sueb said:


> I fondly recall the original PRR Broadway Limited, one of my favorites. Even the Penn Central took better care of it then the rest of their trains.When Amtrak started, they quickly assembled some of their best inherited equipment, and refurbished them for The Broadway. It's first schedule on Amtrak was a still respectable 17 hours, departing NYP 4:55 PM and arriving CHI at 9:00 AM. It ran from New York via the "New York and Pittsburgh Subway" by Zoo Tower, and stopped at PHN to serve Philadelphia. It ran with its splendid GG1's from New York all the way to Harrisburg, changing there to E8's or E9's, and also picked up cars coming up from WAS.
> 
> I would love to see Amtrak bring back the Broadway, running NYP-PGH-CLE-CHI, with limited intermediate stops to expedite the schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> NO WAY can a train serve Phila using PHN (aka North Philadelphia Station). It is in a horrible neighborhood and you feel like you are in an "after the bomb" movie standing on the platform watching the commuter trains wiz by (most don't stop at PHN). I've been there within the last year and I know whereof I speak. That's what happens if you sleep past 30th St on the Keystone in the morning.
Click to expand...

As a kid in the 50's and early 60's my family would take a subway up to PHN from Market St. to catch either the Clevelander or the Penn Texas to Ohio to visit grandparents. I recall the station was kind of nice back then. There was a decent bar off to the side of the ticket places and the platforms were always packed with passengers. Neither of those trains went through 30th St..


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## battalion51

Green Maned Lion said:


> delvyrails said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. A Philadelphia-Chicago train certainly could be run with two equipment sets if the proper scheduling is chosen. A one-night-out train on a 17:20 average run would be turned in 6:40. Look what turnarounds Amtrak does at Seattle and Portland with the two-nights-out Empire Builder: 6:15 and 6:35.
> 
> 
> 
> You can turn that equipment that fast for one end of its turn, but not both. It needs to be thoroughly maintained on one end of its trip. You need three sets of equipment for this train. Period. Besides, setting up a base for maintaining LD equipment in Philly is nuts too. Any money they saved would be blown on mechanical at Philly.
Click to expand...

Is it possible to fast turn equipment on a daily basis? Absolutely. The prime example is Auto Train with a 9:30 arrival and a 4:00 departure. If you look at turn time until boarding it's even shorter. However, when you are constantly tight turning a train one of two things needs to be in place. Either you need to have a large depth of equipment to be able to switch out cars on a regular basis for maintenance needs (as GML said, and they have this available in Sanford) or you need to have a longer turn on the other end, which the EB has. delvy's plan has the depth of equipment in Chicago, but you can't make quick switches in Chicago like the boys in Sanford can. The only alternative that makes short turns feasible is if you rotate the sets with another train that will have a longer turn. So in theory, you could short turn a set at Philly and then flip it around for the Cardinal or LSL (depending on how big the consist is) and then it would have a long turn when it got into New York.

Also GML, don't forget Philly has a very deep Mechanical base. They maintain a decent number of motors there, do work on the Keystone sets, and on Acela sets.


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## jis

Does Philly have a Commissary anymore? If so, for serving what train(s)?


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## battalion51

That might be the one thing Philly lacks these days since the Keystones don't have Food Service cars. In theory you should be able to stock the train for the round trip out of Chicago. You'd have a total of four meal periods on the round trip, which is what the Silver Trains are stocked for, so it seems to be feasible to do the same with this proposed service we're dreaming up.


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## jis

I was chatting with a guy from the mechanical department of Eastern Railway in India who is familiar with the handling of the rakes (as consists are called in India) for the fast overnight trains (Rajdhani Express) between Delhi and Calcutta, which are maintained out of Howrah and Sealdah base in Calcutta. These trains take 16 to 17 hours as per schedule for the 905 mile journey. A rake goes out on day 1 and arrives Delhi in the morning of day 2 and starts back evening of day 2 arriving back in Howrah on day 3 morning. Each rake is 19 cars (2 End on Genrator/brake, 2 ACI Sleeper, 2 Pantry, 5 AC2 Sleeper, 8 AC3 Sleeper capacity about 950 all sleeping accommodation).

If the train arrives late in Delhi making it impossible to meet the scheduled departure, it is turned around ASAP, which usually means 3 hours and sent back on its way. This includes cleaning and re-stocking for the 950 or so passengers, but usually very little mechanical work unless absolutely required. They are basically run as if they were on an 1800 mile two night journey as far as mechanical maintenance is concerned.

Theoretically this could be run using two rakes (consists). But according to this guy experience shows that the wear and tear both mechanical and to passenger amenities through the 17 hour journey is such that it is more reliable to use 3 rakes and as necessary rotate out an arriving rake and replace it with the third rake. This becomes even more critical in the winter when due to fog it is not unusual for the return to arrive 12 to 14 hours late. That at least answered my question on how they manage to run the daily service even in the face of these huge fog delays in the winter with no cancellations almost ever.

So all in all whether such a service can be run with two rakes (consists) or not depends on the operating conditions, dependability requirements, wear and tear and requisite necessary downtime for repairs and maintenance and other factors like weather etc. It does not follow that because SEPTA can turn a train around therefore Amtrak should be able to, or that because it could be done 50 years back it can be done now. One has to look at the overall operating conditions at present and plan accordingly.

Of course the example that I gave above is operated in an environment where people absolutely critically depend on those trains running for their day to day livelihood and business. Those trains are heavily used by both government and business personnel as part of their day to day business, so just canceling them is not an option. These are so called class 1 priority trains which continue running until literally hell freezes over.

Also, the equipment pool to draw from is large. Just to give you a sense they are effectively handling 6 rakes (2 trains per day each way to Delhi and back from Howrah and Sealdah the two main stations of Calcutta) of on an average 18 cars (6x18 = 108 cars + few additional standby cars making the total pool about 120 cars) of which at any time at least 4 rakes are on the road). Cars that would go into forming the third rake may be running around somewhere else (though unusual), but scheduled to be back in town should they be needed. In times of known trouble like winter, they add equipment to the pool to actually keep a third rake available since they know they will need it on most days.

OK now back to the originally scheduled program, and the usual expected few snide remarks about toilets on Indian trains


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## battalion51

Good example jis. Is it possible to do it with two, yes. But can it get ugly if things start rolling down hill and you don't have a back up option, definitely. Look at what happens anytime the Auto Train gets catastrophically late, inevitably there's always a day where one, if not both trips are annulled so that the sets can get back into an on time rotation.


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## Green Maned Lion

battalion51 said:


> Also GML, don't forget Philly has a very deep Mechanical base. They maintain a decent number of motors there, do work on the Keystone sets, and on Acela sets.


Correction: Philly HAD a deep mechanical base. The do basic work on P42s and Amfleet I coaches. But the truth of the matter is, Albany is more equipped to deal with running a daily train to Chicago than Philly is.

Philly has no commisary, they have no mechanical teams capable of handling Amfleet food service cars, Viewliner anything, or Heritage anything (a moot point, I admit). Equipping them to handle this stuff is silly. Actually, I expect that a resurrected Broadway Limited would kill Philly Mechanical, as it has before, and move it to Harrisburg, where it bloody well belongs.


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## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> Philly has no commisary, they have no mechanical teams capable of handling Amfleet food service cars, Viewliner anything, or Heritage anything (a moot point, I admit). Equipping them to handle this stuff is silly. Actually, I expect that a resurrected Broadway Limited would kill Philly Mechanical, as it has before, and move it to Harrisburg, where it bloody well belongs.


I tend to agree with GML. There are very few trains that originate/terminate at Philly anymore and they are basic Keystone trains. So there is very little reason to keep a maintenance base except for doing minor patchups between short runs on Keystones.

It has been interesting to watch Philly get downgraded step by step, to a point where there is very little going on at Race. And now with the CETC moving to Wilmington, another big thing will not be in Philly anymore.


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## battalion51

In all reality though you don't need deep mechanical in Philly, you need basic Mechanical that can turn the train. You've got deep Mechanical available in Chicago. There's deeper Mechanical in Philly than there is in a lot of places that turn trains on a daily basis like St. Albans, Savannah, and Charlotte.


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## DivMiler

Green Maned Lion said:


> Philly has no commisary, they have no mechanical teams capable of handling Amfleet food service cars, Viewliner anything, or Heritage anything (a moot point, I admit). Equipping them to handle this stuff is silly. Actually, I expect that a resurrected Broadway Limited would kill Philly Mechanical, as it has before, and move it to Harrisburg, where it bloody well belongs.


I live in Harrisburg, and am not as well-versed about what Harrisburg has to offer train-maintenance-wise. _Why_ do you think a mechanical team "bloody well belongs" in Harrisburg?

I know Harrisburg (HAR) is a terminus for the Keystones. Is maintenance done in Harrisburg? It always seems to me that the Keystones come in, and almost immediately turn around for the return to New York.


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## Green Maned Lion

It would allow for the Broadway to do its diesel/electric changeover in Harrisburg. Harrisburg originates more trains- only a very few Keystones originate in Philly, most go all the way to New York. You need Mech in Harrisburg for the Keystones. You can mostly avoid it in Philly. Anything that really goes wrong can be corrected by ferrying to Bear or Sunnyside.


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## wayman

Green Maned Lion said:


> It would allow for the Broadway to do its diesel/electric changeover in Harrisburg. Harrisburg originates more trains- only a very few Keystones originate in Philly, most go all the way to New York. You need Mech in Harrisburg for the Keystones. You can mostly avoid it in Philly. Anything that really goes wrong can be corrected by ferrying to Bear or Sunnyside.


If the Broadway originates in NYP and changes engines in Harrisburg, does the AEM7 run around the train in PHL or does the train operate with a cab car? If the train operates with a cab car, does that mean extra switching occurs in HAR to pull it off as well? Or are there cab cars to spare such that they could be run unnecessarily to CHI and back?


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## AlanB

They'll keep mechanical in Philly if for no other reason than the fact that they still sometimes switch from electric to diesel and vice versa for the LD's in Philly rather than DC.


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## DivMiler

Does the Pennsylvanian switch from diesel to electric (and vice versa) in Harrisburg?


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## wayman

DivMiler said:


> Does the Pennsylvanian switch from diesel to electric (and vice versa) in Harrisburg?


No, it switches in Philadelphia. And when it does, boy is that P42 noisy under the station. (The NJT diesels are right next to the open-air side adjacent to the expressway so they're not all that loud.) The Pennsylvanian hasn't switched in Harrisburg for years; I don't think a P42 lives there (at least, I've never seen one in half a dozen trips in the past month).

Alan, when/why do they sometimes switch to diesel in PHL on a Silver/Crescent?


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## AlanB

wayman said:


> Alan, when/why do they sometimes switch to diesel in PHL on a Silver/Crescent?


A few years back when Amtrak still had the E60 electric engines in an effort to reduce the wear on them they started changing at Philly all the time. When the E60's were retired and Amtrak stopped hauling freight, they moved things back to DC. But even now there are occasions where they'll swap in Philly for various reasons. There was a report within say the past 6 months of one train that swapped in Philly coming northbound. I don't recall why, but they did swap in Philly.

I suppose that reasons for swapping in Philly could include problems at DC with switches or tracks that reduce the capacity of the station (so you don't want to tie up a working track longer than you have to), major snow storm making switching work very hard, too many electric motors in the shop or just out of place for some reason, and I'm sure that there are others.


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## Amtrak839

AlanB said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alan, when/why do they sometimes switch to diesel in PHL on a Silver/Crescent?
> 
> 
> 
> A few years back when Amtrak still had the E60 electric engines in an effort to reduce the wear on them they started changing at Philly all the time. When the E60's were retired and Amtrak stopped hauling freight, they moved things back to DC. But even now there are occasions where they'll swap in Philly for various reasons. There was a report within say the past 6 months of one train that swapped in Philly coming northbound. I don't recall why, but they did swap in Philly.
> 
> I suppose that reasons for swapping in Philly could include problems at DC with switches or tracks that reduce the capacity of the station (so you don't want to tie up a working track longer than you have to), major snow storm making switching work very hard, too many electric motors in the shop or just out of place for some reason, and I'm sure that there are others.
Click to expand...

Just an observation, when I was working at the REA Building adjacent to WUS last summer, it seems like 95 often had a P42 on it when it arrived in WAS.


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## dlagrua

These days Philadelphia is just a stop on the NE corridor and a terminal point mainly for trains servicing Pennsylvania. I believe that the farthest run West goes to Pittsburgh on part of the old Broadway Limited route. If you want Chicago as a destination, you've got to pick up the Capitol Limited there and be prepared for a 4 hour layover OR spend alot of extra money and pick up the Capitol Limted from Washington DC. My wife and myself looked into a Chicago trip this June and decided that driving to Pittsburgh and picking up the Capitol Limited there is the most convenient The downside is that you board at 11:45 PM This does allow any time to do anything other than to go right to your room. I wish that the Broadway Limited would return.


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## battalion51

You might see an occasional power change at Philly for power rotation reasons, but a lot of that is accomplished through deadhead moves (as counter-intuitive as it seems). These days, if they can avoid changing power at Philly on a train that is going south of DC, they're going to. If the electric is dead/dying and a diesel is the only option, by all means move it however you can. Unfortunately for buffing reasons you don't see too many Amtrak diesels hauling trains under the catenary these days.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

DowneasterPassenger said:


> Who here remembers the Three Rivers fondly?


(Hand raises excitedly)

I believe I've made four trips on the Three Rivers train during its existence:

1996 (took bus from Wilkes Barre to HAR to catch it, was the through cars onto the CL)

1997 (two trips, drove from State College to ALT to catch it, one trip went to California)

2001-02 (Christmas/New Year's trip, took from PHL)

I took one trip on the BL in 1994-95, also taking the bus from Wilkes Barre to HAR). So I had much more of a history with the TR than the BL.

I used to fly from W-B to Chicago. I never liked it and had bad experiences, throwing up twice. My usual flight was from Avoca to Pittsburgh to Chicago (yes, a dreaded transfer!). Then one day I heard about a fatal plane crash on a flight between Pittsburgh and Chicago, the same flight I took probably 5-10 times in my life.

After riding trains between Chicago and Champaign-Urbana, I found out about the BL schedule which then listed "Scranton" under Harrisburg (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0018). It wasn't an official Thruway Bus but when I talked to Amtrak they were able to sell the ticket from Chicago to Scranton via HAR. When I got to Harrisburg Transportation Center, I found out the same bus stopped in Wilkes Barre before Scranton and was able to get off in W-B and the rest was history. I then took my first trip cross country to LAX in 1997. I haven't taken an airplane since then (9-11 and either terrorist groups or airport security hassles haven't made me want to jump on a plane any time soon) and have made three trips to California (1997, 2001-02, 2015). In my first trip, my youngest cousin was a young girl (7?) and we visited Berkeley. I got to visit her last year. She's now a graduate of Berkeley.



AlanB said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Three Rivers was basically a freight/express operation with a couple of passenger cars thrown into the mix. I believe it only ran CHI-PHIL, and gave some much needed daytime service to Cleveland and the rest of Ohio.
> 
> When the freight/express faded away after Gunn found out the Warrington-originated scheme didn't make any money, the Three Rivers went away with it, along with the Lake Country Limited and the Kentucky Cardinal. along with those Warrington/freight trains that never such as the NYC-CHI Skyline, the extension of the Crescent to Dallas via Meridian, MIss., and a cross-country luxury run.
> 
> Bringing back a Broadway/Three Rivers run from CHI to NYC via PITT and PHIL is not a bad idea. GML seems convinced that it will return with the order for new single level cars. I'm not so sure.
> 
> 
> 
> You're confusing the Three Rivers with the Pennsylvanian. The Pennsy was a daylight trian across Ohio, serving Cleveland in daylight at all times. It ran with no sleepers and only coaches and a cafe car. And IIRC, at varrying times it terminated in NY and Philly. It arrived into Chicago around midnight and left at like 6:00 AM.
> 
> The Three Rivers ran further south in Ohio and overnight through Ohio, like the LSL & Capitol. It carried sleepers, but no diner only a cafe car.
Click to expand...

That was the downfall of the experiment of the Pennsylvanian into Chicago. Who would want to arrive in Chicago at midnight (or return to Philly at that time?) Plus, according to this schedule the Pennsylvanian didn't serve New York, it terminated in Philly (although at that time the TR still served NYP).

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20000521n&item=0030

I was excited to see the Skyline Connection possibility in a printed Amtrak timetable back then. I probably wouldn't have taken the westbound (leaving PHL 1:05am) to CHI but would have preferred to take the eastbound (leave CHI earlier, arrive PHL earlier) unless I was transferring from a western train the same day. It also would've been a direct train to CLE, TOL, and South Bend (Notre Dame), with the potential of taking a Thruway from TOL to Michigan without transferring in TOL during the graveyard shift. Also, I could see taking the Thruway bus to Columbus. They weren't perfect (either leave PHL at 6:35am or 1:05am going westbound) but still better than the current Thruway schedule. I guess the Pennsylvanian to Chicago would've been good for these trips (if I was willing to get to PHL by 6:35am).



sueb said:


> NO WAY can a train serve Phila using PHN (aka North Philadelphia Station). It is in a horrible neighborhood and you feel like you are in an "after the bomb" movie standing on the platform watching the commuter trains wiz by (most don't stop at PHN). I've been there within the last year and I know whereof I speak. That's what happens if you sleep past 30th St on the Keystone in the morning.


All my BL/TR experiences came with the 30th St. Station. I think everyone would agree any BL/TR revival would use 30th St. Station, not North Philadelphia.



DowneasterPassenger said:


> What I liked was the late afternoon departure from Philadelphia for the one-seat ride to Chicago.


You're not the only one.



AlanB said:


> I'm not sure that I'd say I remember it fondly, but then I only rode it once. It was however the one and only time I ever slept in a Heritage sleeper which I'm glad I got the chance to do, before they were retired.
> 
> But it did give one yet another alternative to go between Chicago and NY by train, and it did serve many cities that needed trains. It gave Pittsburgh a second sleeper train, it gave Harrisburg a sleeper train, and it served cities in Ohio that are now totally without rail service, and created a route through central Ohio, where no passenger trains run today.


Exactly. If they ever decided to go via central Ohio, they should try to go through Columbus (although my preference would be via Michigan/Toledo).

If the dream train came about, Detroit and Philadelphia would probably be two of the biggest target areas. So my new idea for a name (drumroll please!)... the Motown Philly! So in addition to all the added expenses of the new train, you'd have to pay Boyz 2 Men royalties LOL!

In all seriousness, I never liked the Three Rivers name. Too Pittsburghy. My 1st choice for name has been Liberty Limited although I think I heard Independence Limited as well.



DowneasterPassenger said:


> We know it's low on the list of "bring back" trains (Sunset Limited, Desert Wind, daily Cardinal service etc. all seem ahead of Three Rivers).


Speak for yourself. Not that I wouldn't want to see the SL (or Gulf Coast NOL-Florida service) or the DW (or anything to Vegas), but of course the BL/TR would be at the top of my list.


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## Eric S

Just wanted to make sure you noticed the dates of the posts you quoted and responded to...


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## Ryan

If he hadn't drug a 6 year old thread from the grave, there so way we would have ever known about his love for the Three Rivers!


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## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> If he hadn't drug a 6 year old thread from the grave, there so way we would have ever known about his love for the Three Rivers!


Jeez, this thread was back before I joined AU.


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## Metra Electric Rider

I have just one question? Has somebody told the Broadway Limited?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I started this Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/RestartBroadwayLimited/


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## jis

Of course clicking on that does not work because the URL under it is www.facebook.com/RestartBroadwayLimited/%A0

Edit the post in text mode and fix the URL and it will work.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Thanks for the heads up jjs! Fixed (both in the link above and in my signature).


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## Lonestar648

I rode the Broadway a few times, but took the Three Rivers quite a few times with Heritage sleeper and later the VL sleeper. Most of the time I was going to/from HAR where I had several projects in the area. I lived the Chicago area then, which allowed me to use Amtrak a lot for my weekly business travel. I remember the SCA experiment of changing in Pittsburgh, having all the SCAs for the Three Rivers based there. Once the Three Rivers ended, I did get off in Pittsburgh then drive to the Harrisburg area, linking up with the CL was too difficult, so had to revert back to flying, then the projects finished and I was on the LSL to Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo, and Albany, sometimes to Boston for several projects in Maine. I did the CL regularly to WAS since corp office was in Reston.


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## railgeekteen

I would love to see a Three Rivers, preferably providing daytime service to Ohio.


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