# Talgo 8 uses



## CCC1007 (Nov 9, 2015)

Please use this thread to speculate as to where the Talgo sets that were originally built for Wisconsin will be used.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 9, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> Please use this thread to speculate as to where the Talgo sets that were originally built for Wisconsin will be used.


Michigan would be a logical place but the Cascades would also be a consideration since they already run Talgo equipment.

Of course if Wisconsin was to come to it senses and get rid of Scott Walker, they could be used as intended in Wisconsin!


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## CHamilton (Nov 9, 2015)

It is likely that the orphaned Talgos will end up in the Northwest, as it is the only location currently set up to use and maintain this equipment. Remember, these train sets have maintenance contracts. The Washington state rail plan includes not only more north-south service, but east-west service as well--daylight SEA-SPK via Stampede Pass and Ellensburg would be particularly useful. Unfortunately, there is no money in the WA state budget at present to buy the equipment, but I suspect that Talgo North America could be convinced to offer generous terms.


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## Eric308 (Nov 9, 2015)

Bob Dylan said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > Please use this thread to speculate as to where the Talgo sets that were originally built for Wisconsin will be used.
> ...


At least smarter people at the national level came to their senses. Now, Scottie is actively soliciting here in WI try to get us to bail him out of his huge campaign debt. Guess he forked out a little too much cash for the daily lobster rolls and his "personal photographer."


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## PerRock (Nov 9, 2015)

The MI bid is still "open" However there hasn't been any progress made on it. MDOT is only saying that they do not have a timeline. I think that the hold up is on the congressional side; due to funding investigations into MDOT. That & most of MI congress has been tied up with the road repair funding issue.

I'm not a great wordsmith, but if someone wanted to craft a letter to the MI House Transportation Committee encouraging their purchase, we might hear something more. Peter Pettalia [® 106] is the chair.

peter


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## jis (Nov 10, 2015)

There still remains the minor issue of where the two sets will be maintained should they be deployed somewhere other than the North West. Currently there are no ready facilities in the mid west where such servicing could be carried out. So that will be an additional cost over and beyond just purchasing or leasing the sets.


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## Eric S (Nov 10, 2015)

Wisconsin's decision to go with Talgos was questionable from the beginning. If the rest of the Midwest also went with Talgo, as had been suggested by the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative, it would have made more sense. But with the rest of the Midwest largely standardizing on the bilevels, it started to make less sense to me. Maybe if the rest of the MWRRI proposed lines in WI were built out and served by Talgo trains (CHI-MKE-GBY, CHI-MKE-MSN-MSP), but not as a small 2 train CHI-MKE fleet (or 4 train CHI-MKE-MSN fleet).

The tilting feature might prove useful for California to use on the Coast Line, if/when the Coast Daylight ever comes to be. But again, that's just a 2 train stand alone fleet. I think it's OR/WA or bust, either as additional Cascades trainsets or for a future SEA-SPK service.


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## seat38a (Nov 10, 2015)

3 are currently owned by WA, 2 by OR, and 2 by Amtrak. Who would take the 2?


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## CHamilton (Nov 10, 2015)

seat38a said:


> 3 are currently owned by WA, 2 by OR, and 2 by Amtrak. Who would take the 2?


There had been money in WSDOT's rail budget to buy the WI trainsets, but it was removed before final passage. But we can hope that funding could be found.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 10, 2015)

seat38a said:


> 3 are currently owned by WA, 2 by OR, and 2 by Amtrak. Who would take the 2?


Maybe British Columbia? iirc, The Wisconsin Talgos are missing a car or three, like, Business Class, lounge? So they don't match the make-up of the current _Cascades_ trainsets. Need to get the missing cars somehow, or otherwise explain to customers every day that this train doesn't have what you rode in yesterday.

But because of the Buy America rules, the half a dozen Business Class cars or whatever, would be almost handmade in the US. But if British Columbia could import them direct from a factory in Spain, they'd be off-the-shelf cheaper.

Not sure that B.C. wants more _Cascades_ service badly enuff to buy the two trainsets and import the added cars, but maybe. Or maybe 'Washington can buy the existing trainsets and partner with B.C. buying the needed cars. Clumsy, but with good will it could work.


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## neroden (Nov 11, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> Please use this thread to speculate as to where the Talgo sets that were originally built for Wisconsin will be used.


The most logical place is the Cascades. According to the Long Term Plan, Washington State is scheduled to need to buy another trainset for the expanded service planned in, IIRC, 2020, or maybe it was as early as 2017.
They aren't going to find a near-matching set for any cheaper than this. They'd have to reconfigure the trains to provide the services expected by Cascades passengers, of course.

WA has been ignoring the "Michigan Talgos" because they've got a lot of work on their plates before 2017 and can't possibly use additional trainsets before then. If they're still sitting there in 2018, I really would expect Washington to buy them for cheap.


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## neroden (Nov 11, 2015)

CHamilton said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > 3 are currently owned by WA, 2 by OR, and 2 by Amtrak. Who would take the 2?
> ...


I didn't know this detail. So it didn't make it into the 2015-2017 budget....

....I suggest strong advocacy to buy the trainsets in the 2017-2019 biennium. With all the ARRA improvements including Point Defiance Bypass operating, they'll actually be able to *use* the trainsets immediately if they buy them in that budget cycle, whereas they would have still sat in mothballs after purchase if they'd been bought in this budget cycle. Also, the demands on the rail budget should relax quite a bit when so many huge projects are finished (I know there was a lot of federal money, but it all had large state matches).


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 11, 2015)

neroden said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > seat38a said:
> ...


... maybe not use them immediately. BSNF would have to agree to more slots.

It agreed to the two additional when the Stimulus upgrades are finished. It might demand another siding or bridge or whatever for another slot, or two. Even down in Oregon, Portland-Eugene, or north Seattle-Vancouver, B.C., they'd probably set conditions.

But if money can be found soon, grab those Talgos.

This offer may not be repeated.

+++++

I'm expecting plenty money to appear.

By 2018, the _Cascades_ will go from 4+ to 6+ frequencies (+ being the _Coast Starlight_), so greater convenience.

Wash D0T is expecting on time performance to go from a disgraceful 73% to 88% on time, for greater reliability

The schedule should be about 10 minutes faster. That's not huge but not nothing, since the trip time will drop to 3 hrs 20 min, more competitive with air and even Bolt Bus.

Two of the trainsets, and all the locomotives, will be shiny new-and-improved. The other trainsets will have been rehabbed and scrubbed to like-new.

Meanwhile Seattle's King Street Station has been restored, now a place where riders will feel proud to pass thru.

And transit connections continue to slowly expand in Seattle and Portland.

Maintenance costs should drop after the trains start moving over smoother tracks.

Advertising costs might increase in 2018, to fill those added seats, then slack off.

So, almost a 50% increase in capacity ('almost' is the _Coast Starlight_ again) and the several improvements added up, I'm looking for ridership, now ~700,000 to exceed 1 million by 2020. And maybe ticket prices could go up a buck or two.

Plenty money to buy a couple of Talgo trainsets. They didn't cost big money brand new, and now that there's only one* buyer in sight, they'll come cheap.

* The one buyer being the _Cascades_ service, whether Wash DOT or British Columbia or even Oregon.

Edited to correct OTP is 73% currently.


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## neroden (Nov 11, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> ... maybe not use them immediately. BSNF would have to agree to more slots.


BNSF already agreed to more slots. Conditional on particular projects being completed (Point Defiance Bypass, certainly -- and I think also the third track near Kalama and the Vancouver trackwork).



> It agreed to the two additional when the Stimulus upgrades are finished.


Last I checked, Washington can't reliably run all the additional frequencies without buying additional Talgos. Even with the Oregon Talgos, because they're dedicated to the improved schedule for Oregon and Oregon will stop lending them to Washington if Oregon gets what it wants.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I believe BNSF agreed to more than two additional slots. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I think it was a total of seven frequencies -- that's *three* additional.

Anyway, if I remember the plan from several years ago correctly, Washington needs one more trainset. Which doesn't quite match with the *two* trainsets which Talgo has... but that is one way of dealing with the trainsets being shorter than the Oregon/Washington trainsets: reassemble the two into one and a collection of spares.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 11, 2015)

neroden said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> > ... maybe not use them immediately. BSNF would have to agree to more slots.
> ...


It's all good.

Washington State promised the feds that there'd be two more frequencies after these upgrades finish in 2017, as a condition of getting the Stimulus money. That doesn't preclude another slot if they didn't want to over-promise.

My larger point is that the _Cascades_ operating subsidy will drop considerably -- maybe disappear on the trunk Seattle-Portland -- due to the nearly 50% more pax, a buck or two on the ticket (because a faster nicer trip and an on-time arrival is worth a dollar more), likely lower maintenance.

From all of that, I'm looking at a much lower subsidy and therefore plenty of money for further investment in the _Cascades_, be it the trainsets or even a start on more projects to upgrade the route. Fix another bridge here, double-track the section over there. It won't be Stimulus-sized grants, but the legislature can look at these capital investments as being about the same as the subsidy was before, so in a way it won't "cost" any more out of the budget. And a few hundred thousand more Cascades riders means a few hundred thousand more voters in favor of more and better trains. The legislature will feel that pressure, not hot, but warm.

Meanwhile Oregon is moving along with the necessary steps. An official decision on the Preferred Alternative is coming by the end of the year, they say. Then a Draft EIS next year. About two years away from being able to use shovels and shovelers. But any improvements to the Oregon service will feed more riders to the trunk line Portland-Seattle, improving results there.

+++++

At some point, enuff traffic on the trunk could give it an operating surplus. Another blogger elsewhere (I'm at arm's length, LOL) said when some of these state-supported routes turn positive, that income stream could be pledged to back bonds. The bond money, of course, would then be re-invested in more capital improvements, cutting times, getting more pax, increasing operating surplus. Hmmn. Building without needing big money from Congress. Is this notion too good to be true?


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## jis (Nov 11, 2015)

How many unique individuals actually ride the Cascade service now? I am not looking for ridership numbers, but actual individuals who ride. Just out of curiosity, since ridership numbers do not vote, but riding individual votes and each individual has exactly one vote, not the number of votes determined by how many times s/he rode a service.


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## CHamilton (Nov 11, 2015)

jis said:


> How many unique individuals actually ride the Cascade service now?


I like to think that all of us who ride the Cascades are unique 

Seriously, though, I don't know. I'll ask if anyone has those statistics at the All Aboard Washington meeting this weekend.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 12, 2015)

jis said:


> How many unique individuals actually ride the Cascade service now? I am not looking for ridership numbers, but actual individuals who ride. Just out of curiosity, since ridership numbers do not vote, but riding individual votes and each individual has exactly one vote, not the number of votes determined by how many times s/he rode a service.


You'd have to ask our national security monitors, who track our every move, legally or not. But I'd be surprised if Amtrak snoops into our business enuff to have this exact figure.

Maybe a rough estimate. Amtrak could subtract out the multiple rides of AGR members, or even the multiple trips charged to one credit card (but not if you used several different cards). Or from surveys. The PRIIA studies revealed the breakdown of riders by age, sex, working or retired, etc.

But as for the impact of riders=voters, it's not just one vote per passenger. Most people can influence the vote of a spouse, other family members, friends, and workplace colleagues. Just as word of mouth can boost or damage a product's sales, it can certainly affect voters' choices.

Now, I'm not saying actual rail experience will sway one-issue voters like the zealot forced-birth crowd. But when a legislator moves thru a crowd, if one voter says, "I've been really pleased with the new level of service on the _Cascades_. And I ride the trains every week. So keep up the good work," the politician *will *hear that comment.

Hmmn. So if a 50% increase in ridership boosts the yearly ridership total by 350,000, how many voters is that? If all the riders travel once a week round trip, 50 weeks a year, wouldn't that be 70,000 more unique rider/voters? Not a bad number when often elections are very narrowly decided, like Gore and Bush in Florida back in 2000. And hope the 70,000 influence others.

Of course, if the success of the improvements slashes the subsidy, that will change how the _Cascades_ are described in the media. If the trains move into an operating surplus, that will change everything.


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## neroden (Nov 12, 2015)

Hmm. At first I was skeptical of the likelihood of an operating surplus on the Cascades, but looking back at the numbers, Cascades are probably already profitable based on direct costs. With revenues of about $60 million and fully allocated costs of about $66 million, there isn't really much improvement necessary to be able to claim an operating surplus.

If they manage to achieve the planned 95% on-time rate which the ARRA projects are supposed to achieve, I bet they can get there.


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## Paulus (Nov 13, 2015)

Those revenues include state subsidies.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 14, 2015)

neroden said:


> ...
> 
> If they manage to achieve the planned 95% on-time rate which the ARRA projects are supposed to achieve ...


Well, this project only promises 88%, due to the "hundreds of curves" and other issues to be resolved in the next phase, or the next Stimulus, or whatever. But even 88% will look sweet compared to the dismal 73% they deliver now.

Edited to give correct OTP of 73%.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 14, 2015)

neroden said:


> > It agreed to the two additional when the Stimulus upgrades are finished.
> 
> 
> ...Also, I believe BNSF agreed to more than two additional slots. ... I think it was a total of seven frequencies -- that's *three* additional.
> ...


Ah, it will be seven frequencies if you count the _Coast Starlight_, which is sort of along for the ride here. All the growth action being on the state-supported _Cascades_, now four, going to six.

But the _Starlight_ is a frequency from BSNF's point of view, no? Six _Cascades_ plus one _Starlight_, the route will go from five to seven frequencies.


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## neroden (Nov 15, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Hmmm... I'd like to see that reference -- is that just for Point Defiance Bypass? I thought 95% was supposed to be after the *cumulative* impact of the *entire* list of proposed ARRA projects.

I think there's a couple which languished in design hell and aren't getting done (second platform at Centralia comes to mind as a source of delay).

But in addition to completing Point Defiance Bypass and the Tacoma Trestle, they're also completing the entire suite of improvements around Vancouver WA, and the entire third track from Kelso to Martins Bluff, and those were supposedly the three biggest causes of delays.


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## neroden (Nov 15, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> Ah, it will be seven frequencies if you count the _Coast Starlight_, which is sort of along for the ride here. All the growth action being on the state-supported _Cascades_, now four, going to six.
> 
> But the _Starlight_ is a frequency from BSNF's point of view, no? Six _Cascades_ plus one _Starlight_, the route will go from five to seven frequencies.


That might be correct. I still remember WSDOT saying they needed to buy one additional trainset, though.


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## neroden (Nov 15, 2015)

Paulus said:


> Those revenues include state subsidies.


Right. Ticket revenue is $28K out of "fully allocated" costs of $66K. We don't know what's getting "allocated", of course, but I'd expect it to be no more than half and probably more like a third of the costs. So that's a long way from an operating surplus. Still, bringing the OTP up from 60% to 88% or 95% should raise ridership and revenue quite quickly.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 16, 2015)

Neroden --

My source is this excellent article -- with maps!

http://tdn.com/news/rail-projects-will-speed-freight-make-more-amtrak-trains-possible/article_9694d143-9262-5526-9992-d1091011a892.html



> Rail projects will speed freight, make more Amtrak trains possible October 17, 2015 8:00 pm • By Tom Paulu
> 
> 
> ...The work will result in fewer late trains — and two more northbound and southbound trains a day, *according to Frank Green, the project manager for the state Department of Transportation.*
> ...




More delicious details at the TDN site. With maps! (I love maps.  )


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## neroden (Nov 18, 2015)

OK, so 88% is probably for the funded projects. I suppose to get to 95% they still need the second platform at Centralia, etc.


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## WoodyinNYC (Nov 18, 2015)

neroden said:


> OK, so 88% is probably for the funded projects. I suppose to get to 95% they still need the second platform at Centralia, etc.


The "etc." is a pretty big thing. There's been rough estimates of more than another Billion needed to cut more time out of the Seattle-Portland route. I'm hoping that there's some poor soul in the back room at the WSDOT who's steadily working on details of the next set of projects, so they'll be closer to "shovel-ready" if or when funding arrives.

That could be when another Stimulus falls from the sky. Or if even $3 or 4 Billion a year for rail, like fiscal 2010, could get thru Congress. Maybe two of the maximum $25 million TIGER grants every year, one for Washington and another for Oregon, with matching funds from Washington and Oregon, could move things along over a span of years. _Sounder _could help a bit. Canada could help at the Vancouver end. Oregon keeps working toward serious south-of-Portland upgrades; a draft EIS or something is promised by year end (yeah, right).

I badly mis-over-estimated how close to positive returns the corridor is and will be after the upgrades kick in. My bad.

But let's look again: _Cascades_ frequencies will increase by two trains, from 5 to 7, (counting the _Coast Starlight_), for a 40% capacity gain. On Time Performance improves from 73% to 88%. New-n-better signaling for safety n speed. Two shiny-n-new trains and the others repolished; 8 new-n-improved locomotives. Restored to glory King Street Station in Seattle, with track improvements. New stations coming for Tacoma and Tukwila. Run time 10+ minutes faster due to new by-passes at Point Defiance and Vancouver, WA, and five new sidings. Trip time reduced by an hour or so when measured by the "I just missed the train, when's the next one?" gap between departures.

Looking at a WSDOT report using 1991-2011 data, over the 17-year period ridership on the corridor increased an average of 9.5% a year. (Here WSDOT explains that it includes the _Starlight _in these calculations. So now I'm saying "a 40% increase in capacity" when before I'd said 50%.)

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/C3FC25A6-7CC6-4BA2-B6CB-B36792B55382/0/amtrakcascadesoverview.pdf

By 2010 and 2011, ridership was totaling about 850,000 altogether. Recently Amtrak's Monthly Reports credit the _Cascades_ with 780,000. So it looks like Amtrak also includes the _Cascades_ stretch of the _Coast Starlight_.

(Hey, isn't *the Starlight getting robbed *by this reporting, which removes the lucrative 300-mile Portland-Seattle segment from its results? Does the Sacramento-San Jose get credit to the Capital Corridor? The San Luis Obispo segment to the _Surfliner_? With this bookkeeping, no wonder the Western trains are shown to lose so much money. LOL.)

As I was saying. The _Cascades_ Corridor is down 70,000 from its peak years, due to construction delays or Bolt Bus or what. When the new-n-improved kicks in, will the _Cascades_ bounce back with immediate growth to the 850,000 they got 5 or 6 years back? Then resume the 9.5% growth trend? Or grow 9.5% from the depressed 780,000 it got in 2014, or worse, the 690,000 it looks to get FY 2015?

A quick bounce back to the peak 850,000 would mean about 150,000 pax added right there.

Then moving from a restored base of 850,000 at the historical 9.5% increase, gets 80,000 more riders, then another 80,000 puts us over 1,000,000 riders.

Operating 40% more trains will add something to the costs, but not 40%. Then the bounce-back revenue increase starts to cover that extra cost.

Added revenue will soon start to eat away the subsidy on this corridor. Not to mention help from another $1 million off a modest $1 per ticket price rise.

Most of the added riders and revenue will come from the Seattle-Portland stem, of course, helping Wash State. In that 2011 report, the Washington segment got 590,000 pax while Oregon and B.C. got another 260,000 (more than I'd have guessed, actually).

But the two added trains should allow another frequency or two south to Salem and Eugene, with that added revenue helping Oregon. Riders going capital-capital Salem-Olympia, or Eugene-Vancouver or Eugene-Seattle, will greatly benefit from the improved on time reliability, the new-n-shiny, and the added frequencies on the stem also.

Back in the day, farebox recovery on the Washington segments climbed from 54% in 2009, to 64% in 2010, to 66% in 2011. Get a 10-point jump on the farebox share and 2 points each year thereafter? Why wouldn't legislators be willing to invest in more of the same? (Crazy is why.)

Now I'm predicting ridership to grow at least 75,000 a year for the first four years or so. The subsidy will subside every year. Then I expect that WSDOT and ODOT and, most of all, the state officials, will be pressured to invest in next steps.

So I'm still very optimistic about this corridor after summer of 2017.


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## neroden (Nov 22, 2015)

I do remember reading that the second platform at Centralia was actually really important to the scheduling.

-- Pt. Defiance Bypass enters on the east side

-- Lacey is on the east side

-- Centralia's on the WEST side

-- Kelso's on the east side

-- Vancouver WA is on the east side

-- nearly all the ports and junctions with freight traffic are on the west side, until Vancouver WA

You see the problem with Centralia immediately. This alone could account for the difference between 88% predicted now and 95% previously predicted. It should be the next project.


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## WoodyinNYC (Dec 8, 2015)

neroden said:


> I do remember reading that the second platform at Centralia was actually really important to the scheduling.
> 
> -- Pt. Defiance Bypass enters on the east side
> 
> ...


I'm glad to think that WA DOT has its eyes on more low-hanging fruit for future upgrades.

Someone posted hereabouts that the WA State highway people aren't thinking of spending more on trains until the two added roundtrips from the Stimulus round of upgrades are running full. They probably think that's a long time down the road. I think it's by FY 2020.

Altogether the "next phase" of upgrades could run another Billion or so. That's an easier number to handle politically if the first phase is successful, the added roundtrips are indeed running full, and ridership hits an important-sounding total of a million. Then the search for funds will get serious. With haters in control in Congress, it won't be easy.

Still, a string of "incremental improvements", done with TIGER-sized $25 million maximums plus matching funds, could get things going. Stuff like a new platform at Centralia, and another siding or a double-tracked segment. The OTP is one important measure, but there's more to it for riders. Being stopped behind an overloaded freight is beyond annoying, it can be downright enraging. Eliminating another 2-minute delay here and there can greatly improve the passengers' experience, and the customer satisfaction scores.

Many of the federal grant criteria get easier to meet with each added individual project. One factor calculated is yearly hours saved times a certain value per hour per rider. More riders, the better that figure looks. Saving 2 minutes for 600,000 yearly riders is worthwhile. Saving 2 minutes per mile for 1,000,000 riders is worth more.

Even as blunt a measure as additional frequencies, the first phase is adding two roundtrips to the current five, which means the total Billion $ upgrade is divided by *7 *trains. A sweeter figure comes from dividing the next Billion $ phase by a larger total of *9* trains, from another two added roundtrips.

Other costs, even track and equipment maintenance, get to be less cost-per-train and ultimately less loss-per-rider. The study for the _Coast Daylight _gave some importance to rebuilt and straighter tracks to lower wear and tear -- not to mention a smoother, more comfortable, and faster ride. (That Cali coastal segment may rival the _Cascades _route for curves per mile. LOL.)

Bringing me back again to the conclusion that the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak. That's related to the observation that nothing succeeds like success, and every successful route helps Amtrak succeed.


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## WoodyinNYC (Dec 8, 2015)

Good place to remind ourselves that these _Cascades_ upgrades will benefit the _Coast Starlight_ quite nicely. It will remain one of the trains in the schedule of the Portland-Seattle corridor. Only being 1 of 7 is much better than being just 1 of 5, since the greater number of departures will attract a larger total of riders. The _Starlight_ will benefit from the same upgrades designed to improve on time performance, and every LD train can use help with that.  And it will probably gain the full 10 minutes saved from the schedule as the other trains.

Going back in history, the biggest step toward faster _Cascades_ service was adopting the Talgos. With "hundreds of curves" on the route, the tllting technology has allowed the Talgo trains to run about 25 minutes faster than the _Starlight_'s Superliner equipment Portland-Seattle. From here on out, the conventional LD will share most of the same time savings of the Talgo runs, because now the upgrades are not about tilting thru curves. (The state-supported trains will have new locomotives, probably cascading older, used ones to other routes across the country.)

Of course, the _Starlight _will also benefit from new or improved stations in Tacoma, Tukwila, and Seattle. And busier stations are more fun, and usually offer riders more services ad support.

Not least, the Amtrak brand should greatly improve in the Northwest as the _Cascades _route becomes ever more successful.


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## neroden (Dec 9, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> Someone posted hereabouts that the WA State highway people aren't thinking of spending more on trains until the two added roundtrips from the Stimulus round of upgrades are running full. They probably think that's a long time down the road. I think it's by FY 2020.


If the projects finish construction near the end of 2017, I'm guessing the two additional trains will be running full by 2019. I hope Washington can find a few projects in the $10 million range to raise the on-time-performance further, such as a second platform and pedestrian overcrossing at Centralia; that's in TIGER grant range.


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## Paulus (Mar 16, 2016)

LOSSAN has included a capitalized lease of Talgo train sets as a potential project for cap and trade funding


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## WoodyinNYC (Mar 17, 2016)

Paulus said:


> LOSSAN has included a capitalized lease of Talgo train sets as a potential project for cap and trade funding


Dayum, Paulus, you had to squint to find that one! But there it is, Talgo train set for LOSSAN North, meaning Ventura, San Bernardino, San Luis Obispo counties.

And I love the list.

Tier 1, Need $95 million from cap-and-trade, the rest is already funded, total of $382 million for three bridge replacements allowing double-tracking for a mile here, 2 ½ miles there and 2 ½ over there, too. Mostly San Diego area, one 10,000 foot passing siding in Irvine county. Planning for "robust timetable" in LOSSAN North. Hmmn. Added frequencies? More upgrades for faster times?

And then Tier 2, complete plans for a couple more bridge replacements, a few more miles double-tracked, ROW acquisition for curve straightening, design for a new station at Camp Pendleton, and Talgo trainset.

Steady incremental improvements on this popular corridor, now powered in part by cap-and-trade funds.


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## Eric S (Mar 17, 2016)

Possibly for use on the Coast Daylight? Or is there some other use I'm overlooking?


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## CCC1007 (Mar 17, 2016)

Could simply be to replace the horizon set(s) used on the line. One every day, and during very busy times, a second replaces a bi-level set that is broken up to expand the other sets.


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## Paulus (Mar 18, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> Could simply be to replace the horizon set(s) used on the line. One every day, and during very busy times, a second replaces a bi-level set that is broken up to expand the other sets.


Probably this. LOSSAN is very keen to own all its own equipment since the state is paying $12.5M+ just in capital equipment charges on the Surfliner.


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## neroden (Mar 18, 2016)

Might be an attempt to see whether tilting will speed up the schedule north of LA.

Otherwise I would really expect them to just buy more bilevels. Despite the Nippon Sharyo delay. Or maybe this is supposed to be a temporary lease *until* they get the bilevels?

If it's supposed to be a temporary lease, they would probably go off lease right around the time Washington State needed them, which would work out OK.


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