# why do they blow the horn so much



## gingee (May 5, 2012)

On citty of new orleans. Gad, that horn has been blarring quite often. Night too. Is this a new rule or something?


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## Texan Eagle (May 5, 2012)

gingee said:


> On citty of new orleans. Gad, that horn has been blarring quite often. Night too. Is this a new rule or something?


Wherever there are railroad crossings, the engineer is required to blow the horn to warn off motorists and trespassers. It's the law. In spite of all the horn blaring, you'd be surprised to know how many vehicles and people manage to get themselves in front of passing trains (and get killed). If the engineer stops blaring horns, things would get only worse.


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## greatcats (May 5, 2012)

There are some localities that pass an ordinance that trains do not have to blow the whistle for crossings if they are properly protected by lights, bells and gates. Flagstaff, Arizona is a good example. The downtown is a whole lot quieter since that was passed. In most other places, however, it is required that the engineer blow the whistle, and as the previous poster indicated, too often it is ignored.


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## Trogdor (May 5, 2012)

Certainly not a new rule. It's about as old as railroading itself.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 5, 2012)

I live 20 feet from a NS line and a few engineers even at 2am seam to just lay on the horn for no reason or random horn blowing no long long short long. there\s a double crossing each with double gates since its 2 one way streets separated by a island. no need to lay on the horn like a car a stuck on it even at 3am. Not all the engineers do it only a few. some will just lightily toot the horn at night while others are horny lol.


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## George Harris (May 5, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> I live 20 feet from a NS line and a few engineers even at 2am seam to just lay on the horn for no reason or random horn blowing no long long short long. there\s a double crossing each with double gates since its 2 one way streets separated by a island. no need to lay on the horn like a car a stuck on it even at 3am. Not all the engineers do it only a few. some will just lightily toot the horn at night while others are horny lol.


The super horn blowers are probably guys that have hit someone and most likely at one of those crossing.


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## MiRider (May 5, 2012)

It's a train, there's a horn, and there are way too many people who think, wrongly, that they can win a race with a train - gates, lights, or any combination of them....or not.

I don't even notice the horn when I'm on the train anymore - doesn't matter... I love the sound.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 5, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> I live 20 feet from a NS line and a few engineers even at 2am seam to just lay on the horn for no reason or random horn blowing no long long short long. there\s a double crossing each with double gates since its 2 one way streets separated by a island. no need to lay on the horn like a car a stuck on it even at 3am. Not all the engineers do it only a few. some will just lightily toot the horn at night while others are horny lol.



There is no federal law that states how loud engineer has to blow the horn, just that he has to and at certain sequence.

The fact that a crossing has 4 quadrant gates and a island does not relieve the engineer from blowing the horn, only if its a certified Whistle free zone.

Most towns refuse to take respocibility for such crossings cause they full well know their citizens are idiots.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 5, 2012)

I read that FRA mandate for the horn was long long shot and the last long to last the length of the crossing.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 5, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> I read that FRA mandate for the horn was long long shot and the last long to last the length of the crossing.


Correct as I stated: a certain sequence


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## MattW (May 5, 2012)

Wait, can train engineers control the volume of the horn? I know most British trains can do that, but I didn't think American trains, particularly Amtrak's engines had control over the loudness.


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## Dutchrailnut (May 5, 2012)

MattW said:


> Wait, can train engineers control the volume of the horn? I know most British trains can do that, but I didn't think American trains, particularly Amtrak's engines had control over the loudness.


the Genesis has a two step Horn Button, push it half and you get half, push it full you get full.

Even the original horn valves on locomotived had a two step valve with a small mushroom valbe that opened before main valve opened


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## GG-1 (May 5, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> long shot


OK  :giggle: :giggle: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## the_traveler (May 5, 2012)

If someone does like the sound of the train horn at 2 AM, why did they move near the tracks? Most likely, the tracks (and crossing) were there prior to the people moving in!  That's like people who move next to an airport - and then complain about the jet noise! 

An apartment complex I am thinking about moving to is directly across the tracks from Portland's Union Station. In reading the reviews of the complex, there was one "Negative" that many people pointed out. That thing is "... the train horns and/or noise ..." at all hours! It seems that before moving in, they may have noticed that big building (that's been there for over 100 years), those traks between the complex and the station and the platforms! Yet, they complain about the train noise! :wacko: So why did they chose to move into that complex? :huh:

I don't get it! :blink: kj m


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## Donctor (May 6, 2012)

GG-1 said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > long shot
> ...


It would explain all the crossing deaths.


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## zephyr17 (May 6, 2012)

Dutchrailnut said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > I live 20 feet from a NS line and a few engineers even at 2am seam to just lay on the horn for no reason or random horn blowing no long long short long. there\s a double crossing each with double gates since its 2 one way streets separated by a island. no need to lay on the horn like a car a stuck on it even at 3am. Not all the engineers do it only a few. some will just lightily toot the horn at night while others are horny lol.
> ...


Minimum sound level of a locomotive horn is also mandated by the FRA. Whether the engineer has control beyond that,I don't personally know, although I'll take Dutchrailnut's post about the control feature in the P42.


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## George Harris (May 6, 2012)

zephyr17 said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > amtrakwolverine said:
> ...


There is a very precise regulation on horn sequence and duration of blowing, and also loudness, as follows:



> § 222.21 When must a locomotive horn be used? (a) Except as provided in this part, the locomotive horn on the lead locomotive of a train, lite locomotive consist, individual locomotive or lead cab car shall be sounded when such locomotive or lead cab car is approaching a public highway-rail grade crossing. Sounding of the locomotive horn with two long blasts, one short blast and one long blast shall be initiated at a location so as to be in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section and shall be repeated or prolonged until the locomotive occupies the crossing. This pattern may be varied as necessary where crossings are spaced closely together.
> 
> (b)(1) Railroads to which this part applies shall comply with all the requirements contained in this paragraph (b) beginning on December 15, 2006. On and after June 24, 2005, but prior to December 15, 2006, a railroad shall, at its option, comply with this section or shall sound the locomotive horn in the manner required by State law, or in the absence of State law, in the manner required by railroad operating rules in effect immediately prior to June 24, 2005.
> 
> ...





> 49 CFR § 229.129 Locomotive horn.(a) Each lead locomotive shall be equipped with a locomotive horn that produces a minimum sound level of 96 dB(A) and a maximum sound level of 110 dB(A) at 100 feet forward of the locomotive in its direction of travel. The locomotive horn shall be arranged so that it can be conveniently operated from the engineer's usual position during operation of the locomotive.


Note that these requirements are not even next to each other in the CFR.

Here are the two main items:

Sounding of the locomotive horn with *two long blasts, one short blast and one long blast* shall be initiated at a location so as to be in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section and shall be repeated or prolonged until the locomotive occupies the crossing.

and:

minimum sound level of 96 dB(A) and a maximum sound level of 110 dB(A) at 100 feet forward of the locomotive


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## Dutchrailnut (May 6, 2012)

zephyr17 said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > amtrakwolverine said:
> ...



Correct the FRA mandates a minimum (mechanical)level the horn can produce and a maximum , this is mechanical limits, not operational limits.

Is so MofE can not send you out with a horn that barely produces sound.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (May 6, 2012)

gingee said:


> On citty of new orleans. Gad, that horn has been blarring quite often. Night too. Is this a new rule or something?


While not in New Orleans, I know what you mean.

For one year, I rented a place about a block from a busy freight line. The tracks run thru the middle of town, and therefore the trains blew their horn every block, block after block, day and night.

While I like trains, I moved about 10 miles away as soon as my lease was up. Even 10 miles away, in the early morning quiet, I can still hear that train horn blasting over and over again, in the distance.


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## Steel City Don (May 6, 2012)

I live in Pittsburgh..hear train horns at least once an hour...gets annoying, but I'm use to it...


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## Railroad Bill (May 6, 2012)

gingee said:


> On citty of new orleans. Gad, that horn has been blarring quite often. Night too. Is this a new rule or something?


We just completed a ride on the Crescent coming into New Orleans and was surprised that the engineer continuous blew the horn the entire length of the causeway from Slidell until we reached the city. I did not see any track work taking place which would call for that type of signalling?? And of course, there were no crossings in the middle of the Lake Pontchartrain :giggle:

Anyone know why the engineer did this??


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## Danial Tijuana (May 6, 2012)

Yeah ain't it the truth. Just glad I'm making my next night run from LA to Arizona. Lots of empty space out in the desert with only a few horns until we come back by the highways.

Onboard the Texas Eagle four years ago it was howling horns through all the little towns around Texarkana. We were right up front near the engine, too.

People who love trains as much as we do here tend to try and forget the ugly stuff like hard-to-walk shaking back-and-forth rough rails, and the blasting of horns at night, and the smell of diesel in the morning or anytime you finally get to step out for "a breath of fresh air"

Oh well, asi es la vida de un "foamer" yo creo ?o no?


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## SarahZ (May 6, 2012)

I was thrilled when I found this apartment so close to the Amtrak tracks. When we were looking for a new place, I said I wanted to stay in this neighborhood and find something closer to the tracks. Our new place is practically on top of them. :-D I was pretty bummed when we didn't get the place where the train goes, almost literally, right through the backyard. That would have been cool.

It's to the point where I barely notice the train going by, and even when I do, I like it because it tells me what time it is (approximately).

Also, when the 9:50-ish Wolverine is delayed and it comes through at 11:00 PM or later, the engineers tend to keep the horn volume down. I always notice a distinct difference between the horn at 7:30 PM and the horn at 11:00 PM or later.


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## the_traveler (May 6, 2012)

Railroad Bill said:


> We just completed a ride on the Crescent coming into New Orleans and was surprised that the engineer continuous blew the horn the entire length of the causeway from Slidell until we reached the city. I did not see any track work taking place which would call for that type of signalling?? And of course, there were no crossings in the middle of the Lake Pontchartrain :giggle:
> 
> Anyone know why the engineer did this??


Although there are (of course) no crossings in the middle of the lake, there may be some dumb people walking on the tracks across the bridge as a "shortcut" from one side to the other. That is why trains blow the horn at every bridge or tunnel along the route!


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## Shawn Ryu (May 6, 2012)

Personally I enjoy the horn blowing while I am on the train. Quite soothing.

At least for me. :giggle:


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## leemell (May 6, 2012)

Danial Tijuana said:


> Yeah ain't it the truth. Just glad I'm making my next night run from LA to Arizona. Lots of empty space out in the desert with only a few horns until we come back by the highways.
> 
> Onboard the Texas Eagle four years ago it was howling horns through all the little towns around Texarkana. We were right up front near the engine, too.
> 
> ...


The cars swaying, the horn, the smell of diesel, that is what we ride the train for!


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## jphjaxfl (May 6, 2012)

Train horns are some of the wonderful aspects of train travel, specially at night. I live close enough that I can hear the Star.Meteor and Auto Train blowing when they parallel US Highway 17. I'll be even closer when service on the FEC begins. The train horns are very comforting.


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## AlanB (May 6, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > We just completed a ride on the Crescent coming into New Orleans and was surprised that the engineer continuous blew the horn the entire length of the causeway from Slidell until we reached the city. I did not see any track work taking place which would call for that type of signalling?? And of course, there were no crossings in the middle of the Lake Pontchartrain :giggle:
> ...


I think that there are often people who walk out along the causeway to fish off the sides of it, so the engineer ends up blowing the horn quite a bit on a busy day.


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## pennyk (May 6, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> Train horns are some of the wonderful aspects of train travel, specially at night. I live close enough that I can hear the Star.Meteor and Auto Train blowing when they parallel US Highway 17. I'll be even closer when service on the FEC begins. The train horns are very comforting.


I agree. I, too, can hear the Star and Meteor, but I am too far away to hear the Auto Train.


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## leemell (May 6, 2012)

pennyk said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > Train horns are some of the wonderful aspects of train travel, specially at night. I live close enough that I can hear the Star.Meteor and Auto Train blowing when they parallel US Highway 17. I'll be even closer when service on the FEC begins. The train horns are very comforting.
> ...


I'm within a half mile of the UP line in the San Fernando Valley and can hear the Coast Starlight, the Pacific Surfliners, Metrolinks and the occasional late night freight.


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## keyman1202 (May 6, 2012)

gingee said:


> On citty of new orleans. Gad, that horn has been blarring quite often. Night too. Is this a new rule or something?




Laws laws ...regulations...stupid laws.. BECAUSE auto drivers now text and drive!!!! they are too stupid to know that a train doesnt stop because there are red lights at a crossing..! drivers are too stupid now to even notice when the stop lights turn green!! They just leave the intersection..because they are done texting.. i guess... We just beg the government to get involved.. and that is the last thing the country needs!!


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## me_little_me (May 6, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> If someone does like the sound of the train horn at 2 AM, why did they move near the tracks? Most likely, the tracks (and crossing) were there prior to the people moving in!  That's like people who move next to an airport - and then complain about the jet noise!
> 
> An apartment complex I am thinking about moving to is directly across the tracks from Portland's Union Station. In reading the reviews of the complex, there was one "Negative" that many people pointed out. That thing is "... the train horns and/or noise ..." at all hours! It seems that before moving in, they may have noticed that big building (that's been there for over 100 years), those traks between the complex and the station and the platforms! Yet, they complain about the train noise! :wacko: So why did they chose to move into that complex? :huh:
> 
> I don't get it! :blink: kj m


Same people that move out next to a farm to be "in the country" then complain about the smell of the farm animals.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 6, 2012)

me_little_me said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > If someone does like the sound of the train horn at 2 AM, why did they move near the tracks? Most likely, the tracks (and crossing) were there prior to the people moving in!  That's like people who move next to an airport - and then complain about the jet noise!
> ...


I was thinking the same thing. When I was 11 we moved to a neighborhood that was sometimes downwind of mushroom farms. We accepted that as part of living in what my mom called "the boonies" (the area had grown quite a bit since the last time they lived in the state so it really wasn't the boonies. In fact it was, and still is 40 years later, one of "the" places to live.


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## MiRider (May 6, 2012)

AmtrakBlue said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


In the same vein, when we were looking to buy our current home in Michigan, we were given a brochure from the Dept. of Ag that pretty much told us that if we bought where we were thinking of buying... we might smell POOP and see tractors and such.

No problem.

I miss hearing the trains in the night when we lived in Cedar Rapids, IA.

Now I know that when the wind is blowing in the right direction, I can go outside and hear my home train, the Pere Marquette, leave.






That, along with the songs of my neighborhood birds is a beautiful way to start the day


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## Devil's Advocate (May 6, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> If someone does like the sound of the train horn at 2 AM, why did they move near the tracks? Most likely, the tracks (and crossing) were there prior to the people moving in! That's like people who move next to an airport - and then complain about the jet noise!


I moved next to an airport because my job moved next to an airport. Thanks to complaints lodged by those who came before me there are now all sorts of rules and regulations that make living next to our airport much quieter and more enjoyable than it was in the past. Similar initiatives are being used to quiet busy rail corridors as well, which is especially helpful for people who can't afford to live in quieter more affluent areas far away from any major airports or railroad tracks. I never even knew there was a pro-noise movement until I came to AU.



the_traveler said:


> An apartment complex I am thinking about moving to is directly across the tracks from Portland's Union Station. In reading the reviews of the complex, there was one "Negative" that many people pointed out. That thing is "... the train horns and/or noise ..." at all hours! It seems that before moving in, they may have noticed that big building (that's been there for over 100 years), those traks between the complex and the station and the platforms! Yet, they complain about the train noise! :wacko: So why did they chose to move into that complex?


So rather than being actual complaints these were reviews in which people merely warned prospective lessees about the noise in a review?



me_little_me said:


> Same people that move out next to a farm to be "in the country" then complain about the smell of the farm animals.


My bloodlines came from ranching and farming. I found the smells of farms like ours to be quite agreeable, but today's farms are nothing like the farms we remember from our youth or that you see painted in children's books. The excessive crowding of livestock and the lack of proper waste management can create odors on a level far beyond what most people would ever expect to encounter in an otherwise rural setting. But hey, who cares about those crazy people with functional olfactory nerves, right?


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## kal-tex (May 6, 2012)

When I hear a train whistle in the distance, it seems to me that it is calling me to take my next trip!


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## JayPea (May 6, 2012)

me_little_me said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > If someone does like the sound of the train horn at 2 AM, why did they move near the tracks? Most likely, the tracks (and crossing) were there prior to the people moving in!  That's like people who move next to an airport - and then complain about the jet noise!
> ...


In the rural county I live, our brochure for newcomers includes "warnings" about some aspects of the rural lifestyle, based on actual complaints from newcomers from urban areas. Smell from farm animals is among them. In our area, farms and farming practices, save for updated machinery, have changed very little over the years. Noise from animals is another complaint. I don't know what you do about that. :help:

Other complaints:

Noise and smells from farm implements (even though modern equipment is much better in that regard than in the past)

Long response times for emergency services

Dust

Low - flying aircraft (crop dusters)

Gravel roads as opposed to paved roads


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## Swadian Hardcore (May 7, 2012)

George Harris said:


> Here are the two main items:
> 
> Sounding of the locomotive horn with *two long blasts, one short blast and one long blast* shall be initiated at a location so as to be in accordance with paragraph (b) of this section and shall be repeated or prolonged until the locomotive occupies the crossing.
> 
> ...


You got a nice description there.



EMTDON said:


> I live in Pittsburgh..hear train horns at least once an hour...gets annoying, but I'm use to it...


I have the same thing, but it's not exactly a big problem for me. I hear like TWO trains coming through each hour.


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## oldtimer (May 7, 2012)

Having in my career been on Amtrak trains even in the cab at times when *13 fatal crashes* occurred, I wish that the horn was much louder and that the "No-Whistle Zones" were eliminated. It take a terrible toll on the crew when an injury or fatality happens. Amtrak currently offers the crew relief if they feel they cannot proceed after a fatal accident. I gave up counting the grade crossing accidents where there were no injuries. I have seen all kinds of accidents, from pedestrian to loaded semi dump trucks. The first was a fatality the dump truck ended up with 3 minor injuries in the cab of the engine. The two examples cited occurred at 79 mph.

I could tell you railroad stories from now until the next "Super Moon". No whistle zones do not stop grade crossing accidents, I even think that train vs pedestrian accidents increase. Just for the record I grew up within 75 feet of the PRR mainline on the south side of Chicago and currently live in a suburb serviced by Metra within 1/4 mile of a station and the horn is music to my ears.


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## Trogdor (May 7, 2012)

oldtimer said:


> Having in my career been on Amtrak trains even in the cab at times when *13 fatal crashes* occurred, I wish that the horn was much louder and that the "No-Whistle Zones" were eliminated. It take a terrible toll on the crew when an injury or fatality happens. Amtrak currently offers the crew relief if they feel they cannot proceed after a fatal accident. I gave up counting the grade crossing accidents where there were no injuries. I have seen all kinds of accidents, from pedestrian to loaded semi dump trucks. The first was a fatality the dump truck ended up with 3 minor injuries in the cab of the engine. The two examples cited occurred at 79 mph.
> 
> I could tell you railroad stories from now until the next "Super Moon". No whistle zones do not stop grade crossing accidents, I even think that train vs pedestrian accidents increase. Just for the record I grew up within 75 feet of the PRR mainline on the south side of Chicago and currently live in a suburb serviced by Metra within 1/4 mile of a station and the horn is music to my ears.


Sounds like the answer is grade crossing separation, not louder horns.

I live in downtown Chicago, where we quite possibly have the loudest fire truck sirens/horns in the country. Despite this, people still act like the don't know what to do when they hear an emergency siren coming at them. I don't know what their decibel level is, but I have to plug my ears when they go by to protect my hearing. You can hear the siren from blocks away, but all that does is train drivers to ignore it until it's right on their ass because you can't tell if it's on your street coming at you, or two blocks over.

As for grade-crossing collisions, how many of them would really be avoided by louder horns? When someone's racing around the gates trying to beat the train, it isn't the loudness (or quietness) of the horn that's the factor, it's the (perceived) time savings that they will get by not having to wait for the train.

Even in quiet zones, the crossing gates have bells on them which alert people. Some even have smaller whistles attached to the gates themselves that blow when the train approaches, so the train doesn't have to use its whistle. I've never been at such a gate when a train has passed, so I don't know how they sound. However, I'd be in favor of some kind of advanced technology at the gates that makes the whistle sound louder as the train gets closer. Engineers are still allowed to blow their whistle, under any circumstance, if they feel that there is some safety-justified reason to do so. But that still requires the pedestrian to have their head out of their anal cavity, and not having a cell phone on one ear while plugging the other (to tune out the loud noise of the train coming by), or kids with really loud iPods and earphones, etc.

Trucks getting stuck on crossings because their trailer is too low...can't really help that with a horn (unless it's of just the right frequency to resonate with the trailer and the rails and allow the trailer to levitate just enough to...okay, not likely to happen). Then there are those who cross the tracks but can't clear due to traffic in front of them. That's just plain stupidity. Sometimes there's an intersection immediately after the crossing, and the traffic lights have not been programmed to link up with the crossing gates. Again, doesn't excuse poor driving habits (entering a crossing without being able to clear), but there are changes that can be done to mitigate that problem (like all directions changing to flashing red, except for the direction that's trying to clear the crossing, which gets a green so they can get the hell out of there).

Point being, with as loud as train horns are, people really have to try to not hear them, and the answer to that isn't louder horns, it's fixing the real problems (as varied and numerous as they are), because making louder horns will only drive more people to demand quiet zones (which you're not going to get rid of, no matter how much you wish), and make others find more ways to tune them out (which we're still not going to avoid).

At some point, doing something in the name of increased safety becomes counterproductive as people look for ways around it.


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## cirdan (May 7, 2012)

keyman1202 said:


> We just beg the government to get involved.. and that is the last thing the country needs!!


You mean expect the governemnt to sort it out as long as that involves the government telling somebody else what to do, but cry murder when the government tells you what to do?


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## George Harris (May 7, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Sounds like the answer is grade crossing separation, not louder horns.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> ...


There is and it is not advanced. It is called reduced distance.

The whole thing is that it is impractical to grade separate everything, so you do what you can, and that is blow the horn. As had been said here already: the railroad has been there, and for most if not all of us, since long before we were born, so to be near a railroad and complain about horn noise is in the same range of stupidity as ignoring railroad crossings, and particularly deliberately trying to beat a train at a crossing.

Unfortunately, as much as we might like to do so, there is no way to outlaw stupidity. About all that can be done is to try to reduce the amount of hurt one person's stupidity does to the innocent and uninvolved.



keyman1202 said:


> Laws laws ...regulations...stupid laws.. . . . We just beg the government to get involved.. and that is the last thing the country needs!!


What brought on this rant? I am as much against unnecessary regulation as anybody, but there are some things that really cannot be done by anyone other than governments. Food and water safety being outstanding examples. Standards for road design are another one, and that primarily for the sake of consistency so that you know such things as that signage and traffic signals and road marking will be the same or very similar regarless of where you are in the country. I consider horn rules that define loudness, etc., another where defined standards for the sake of comsistency is very important. Look back up the thread and you will see that the Federal regulation has simply codified the usual method of horn blowing and provided a standard range of loudness.


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## Bierboy (May 7, 2012)

JoanieB said:


> ...I don't even notice the horn when I'm on the train anymore - doesn't matter... I love the sound.


I'm also in this club....it's magic!

BTW, I used to live in Galesburg, Ill., about a half block from the Santa Fe tracks and about a quarter mile from the CBQ (now BN) tracks.


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## Shortline (May 7, 2012)

oldtimer said:


> Having in my career been on Amtrak trains even in the cab at times when *13 fatal crashes* occurred, I wish that the horn was much louder and that the "No-Whistle Zones" were eliminated. It take a terrible toll on the crew when an injury or fatality happens. Amtrak currently offers the crew relief if they feel they cannot proceed after a fatal accident. I gave up counting the grade crossing accidents where there were no injuries. I have seen all kinds of accidents, from pedestrian to loaded semi dump trucks. The first was a fatality the dump truck ended up with 3 minor injuries in the cab of the engine. The two examples cited occurred at 79 mph.
> 
> I could tell you railroad stories from now until the next "Super Moon". No whistle zones do not stop grade crossing accidents, I even think that train vs pedestrian accidents increase. Just for the record I grew up within 75 feet of the PRR mainline on the south side of Chicago and currently live in a suburb serviced by Metra within 1/4 mile of a station and the horn is music to my ears.


I respectfully disagree at least to a portion of your premise-While I will certainly concede that whislte zones do NOT stop grade crossinng incidents, they certainly also don't decrease safety-in fact, I propose an INCREASE in the number of quiet zones would have an overall positive impact on grade crossing safety. (disclaimer-I am not speaking on behalf of any railroad or rail safety organization....The opinion here is simply my own) As it is, the FRA studies have shown no DECREASE in safety: "Individual tests demonstrate that among each of the groups there was no statistical significance that would indicate that the observed locations were less safe because of the establishment of the Quiet Zone and therefore the null hypothesis cannot be rejected." (Reference 2011 TTI Conference presentation on Quiet Zone-Study FRA presentation) I also believe quiet zones would positively increase safety for the crew, with regards to hearing loss, which, continues to be a huge issue.

 

However, I hypothesize that many crossings would be improved by including them in a Quiet Zone, through an upgrade from passive warning devices (crossbucks) to an active system that is approved under a quiet zone application. By using the quiet zones as a catalyst, I think many more municipalities would be open to spending the money to upgrade the warning systems-ergo, more quiet zones, potentially fewer collisions through more improved active warning systems. Many Railroads actively oppose quiet zones-I frankly belive the reason has much less due to safety concerns, and more to do with financial-Quiet zones cost more to engineer, install, and maintain. That is a cost the RR's typically have to eat, and is a very large portion of annual operating costs. Also, there is the liability issue when a person chooses to ignore the active warnings, and is hit-since the technology is new, many lawyers will, with nothing else to go on, key on that, and claim "if only the horn had been blowing, like my clients deceased family member is used to, he would still be alive".


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## Ozark Southern (May 7, 2012)

As I'm reading this, I'm hearing a BNSF freight crossing through town, and the engineer is indeed blowing the correct sequence. They do it at all hours of the night, and as our house is about 4 blocks from the tracks, we can always hear it even indoors. I concur with others, though, that if the trains are a problem, don't live near the tracks. Personally, I'd much rather have train noise than highway noise (lived for about a year and a half in an apartment adjacent to a six-lane highway, and that was so much worse).


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## amtrakwolverine (May 7, 2012)

Don't get me wrong I picked this trailer cause its next to the tracks. They didn't always lay on the horn like there was no tomorrow and some engineers will lightly tap it at night as to not disturbed people. I don't see why you need to lay on the horn for 1 mile. Maybe cause its a trailer park there afraid some kid or someone is going to run onto the tracks to chase after a ball and not notice the train coming. there's a old man who walks his dog along the tracks every day and he walks with a stick also.


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## George Harris (May 7, 2012)

Shortline said:


> As it is, the FRA studies have shown no DECREASE in safety: "Individual tests demonstrate that among each of the groups there was no statistical significance that would indicate that the observed locations were less safe because of the establishment of the Quiet Zone and therefore the null hypothesis cannot be rejected." (Reference 2011 TTI Conference presentation on Quiet Zone-Study FRA presentation)


Call me a skeptic. I would love to see the data behind this conclusion. It may or may not be valid. You can prove almost anything you want by careful data selection.


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## Shortline (May 7, 2012)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Don't get me wrong I picked this trailer cause its next to the tracks. They didn't always lay on the horn like there was no tomorrow and some engineers will lightly tap it at night as to not disturbed people. I don't see why you need to lay on the horn for 1 mile. Maybe cause its a trailer park there afraid some kid or someone is going to run onto the tracks to chase after a ball and not notice the train coming. there's a old man who walks his dog along the tracks every day and he walks with a stick also.


There has been increased emphasis placed on proper horn blowing at crossings by the FRA, and subsequently, the RR's to ensure their engineers are in compliance. It used to be somewhat common, for an engineer to "lightly tap it at night", but those days are over-The Railroad faces fines for their non-compliance, and have therefore stepped up enforcement by testing their crews, and documenting failures to blow the proper signal, for the proper length of time. The FRA has also stepped up enforcement, and while rare, can issue a violation to the engineer of $5000 for a violation for not blowing between 15 and 20 seconds, and $7500 if that violation is deemed "willful". Engineers also are being sued following a grade crossing incident, and can be held liable for wrongful death if they were found to be not blowing appropriatey. An engineer who chooses to not blow as required, is taking a really big chance at a personal financial catastrophy. I assure you it has nothing to do with it being a trailer park per se.

Edit to add-That violation can also be issued, if the horn blowing is excessive-i.e. can be violated for blowing less than 15 seconds prior to the crossing, and can be violated for blowing MORE THAN 25 seconds prior to the crossing, though for obvious reasons, the fine for blowing more than prescribed is less than for blowing it less than prescribed. ($5000-$7500 for not long enough, $1000-$2000 for blowing it too long)


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## Shortline (May 7, 2012)

George Harris said:


> Shortline said:
> 
> 
> > As it is, the FRA studies have shown no DECREASE in safety: "Individual tests demonstrate that among each of the groups there was no statistical significance that would indicate that the observed locations were less safe because of the establishment of the Quiet Zone and therefore the null hypothesis cannot be rejected." (Reference 2011 TTI Conference presentation on Quiet Zone-Study FRA presentation)
> ...


 

Here's where I got that quote, and the FRA presentation it came from. I agree with you, statistics are what you want them to be sometimes, but, from my experience, I do not believe a quiet zone crossing is more dangerous than a regular signaled/lighted crossing. 

 

Statistics presentation 

 

It's all here, but you gotta do the legwork....


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## SP&S (May 8, 2012)

I can see where a quiet zone crossing could be safer than a normal one, but would this not be due to the stricter requirements for signaling, gating, extended medians, and so forth? The crossings in quiet zones that I have seen have quad crossing gates that close off the entire crossing from both directions, making it difficult for some fool to drive around them. I'm sure there are other improvements too. This is also one of the reasons there aren't more of them, it costs more to do this as opposed to having just a light or a conventional gate (or worse just a painted crossbuck).

Of course, when I'm on the train I prefer the frontmost sleeper, there's just something soothing about laying in bed hearing the engineer sounding Q on the horn.


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## NOtunnel (Sep 5, 2013)

Grade separations can illuminate crossings altogether which improves safety. No more traffic congestion, no more horn blowing. The public nuisance created by train horns can also be avoided through a Quiet Zone, which through railroad lobbying is paid for by the tax payer. How nice, the railroad lobby still thinks we live in the 1800's.


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## SarahZ (Sep 6, 2013)

NOtunnel said:


> Grade separations can [eliminate] crossings altogether which improves safety. No more traffic congestion, no more horn blowing. The public nuisance created by train horns can also be avoided through a Quiet Zone, which through railroad lobbying is paid for by the tax payer. How nice, the railroad lobby still thinks we live in the 1800's.


Most of the tracks were laid long before houses went up, so I don't blame the railroads for asking the homeowners who knowingly bought a house next to train tracks to pony up for the Quiet Zone.

Train horns are not a "public nuisance". They are a necessity, just like sirens on emergency vehicles.


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## Henry Kisor (Sep 6, 2013)

I've been hornswoggled.


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## CHamilton (Sep 6, 2013)

The tragic results of what happens when people cannot hear the warning horns. This happened on the MAX light rail rather than Amtrak, but the issue is the same. *(Emphasis mine.)*

Washington woman identified as pedestrian fatally injured by Portland MAX train





> A 62-year-old Washington woman was struck by a westbound MAX train early Sept. 5 near Portland's Lloyd Center. She later died from her injuries at a hospital. _(Brent Wojahn/The Oregonian)_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Earlier articles indicated that this accident pretty well shut down the MAX, as it occurred in a location where multiple lines run in the same place.


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## Phil (Sep 24, 2013)

Who can we complain to ? I have noticed that the blasts during the night 10pm till 5am seem pretty extreme.

i hear on avg 5-9 long blasts that are starting to rattle windows. During the day i hear the 2 long, 1 sort, 1 long and it is okay. I have read that im near a busy corridor in Central calif. Modesto ca. But see no reason for the excessive blasts when no one is out in this part of the town

.


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## the_traveler (Sep 25, 2013)

If there's a grade crossing (even if it's a private driveway, farm vehicle crossing, etc...), and no matter if it's 2 pm and heavy traffic or 3 am with "nobody around", federal law requires a locomotive to sound it's horn for that crossing! And what if it's 3:30 am and a car comes to the crossing and a train comes along? The train can't put on it's brakes and stop on a dime! Or swerve to miss the vehicle.

Depending on the length of the train and the speed it's going, it could take the train a mile to stop! Thus the warning of the horn.

**** Please note that the majority of this thread is over 1 1/2 years old, but still relevant today ...*


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 25, 2013)

Complaining is useless. It's federal law and it's for the safety of all involved. The train *MUST* blow long-long-short-long at every grade crossing. No exceptions, no concessions, no second thoughts. *MUST* do it.

On most of the Great Basin desert, there's no crossings at all for miles, so you can sleep better.


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## the_traveler (Sep 25, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> The tragic results of what happens when people cannot hear the warning horns. This happened on the MAX light rail rather than Amtrak, but the issue is the same. ... Earlier articles indicated that this accident pretty well shut down the MAX, as it occurred in a location where multiple lines run in the same place.


3 of the (current) 4 MAX lines operate along that section.


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## SubwayNut (Sep 25, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Complaining is useless. It's federal law and it's for the safety of all involved. The train *MUST* blow long-long-short-long at every grade crossing. No exceptions, no concessions, no second thoughts. *MUST* do it.
> 
> On most of the Great Basin desert, there's no crossings at all for miles, so you can sleep better.


That's not fully true the grade crossings could be upgraded and the line could become a federally designated Quiet Zone

A Quick Google Search for the full page on the Train Horn Rule from the FRA Website.


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## Ryan (Sep 25, 2013)

Complain to yourself for moving in next to the railroad tracks.


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## JackM (Sep 25, 2013)

About twenty years ago, my son and I were on the Texas Eagle, listening to the RR frequencies on our portable scanner, when the engineer seriously hit the brakes. His voice on our scanner said something, I don't remember what. But I never want to hear that voice again.

JackM

I think it was in Cleburne, TX. We backed up and were there about 45 minutes. Actually, an Amtrak train can apply a lot of braking force, but no train can "stop in time".


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 25, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Complain to yourself for moving in next to the railroad tracks.


True this! 

Or "When did they build those Railroad Tracks Next to My House and Where did those Noisy Trains come from?"


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## Ryan (Sep 25, 2013)

It's just like when I was growing up in (then-rural) Frederick County, MD. In the early 90's the rush of suburbia was just reaching out there, and the complaints about the smell from the dairy farm adjacent to our neighborhood was in credible. Everyone was all "We didn't know that the manure was going to smell so bad and why do you have to spread it in the fields?". Permission granted to do a little research and exercise some personal responsibility when you're buying a house.



Phil said:


> But see no reason for the excessive blasts when no one is out in this part of the town.


Looking further at the FRA database of grade crossing incidents, I see accidents occuring in Modesto at grade crossings at all hours of the day and night. So your supposition that "no one is out" is incorrect, since people are colliding with trains all the time.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 25, 2013)

SubwayNut said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Complaining is useless. It's federal law and it's for the safety of all involved. The train *MUST* blow long-long-short-long at every grade crossing. No exceptions, no concessions, no second thoughts. *MUST* do it.
> ...


 San Antonio has been making FRA mandated changes in order to create quiet zones. It's not a hard task for a major city to accomplish. I'm not sure they're as safe at first, mainly because our citizens need time to become familiar with the concept of silent crossings, but other than that I support the goals of lowering noise while still keeping safety to reasonable levels. If you're an alert driver you won't get hit. If you're a clueless phone-focused idiot or aggressive road raging (person), well, nice knowing you. The only problem I have with silent crossings is that they're nearly impossible to leave if the train stops or the crossing itself fails to deactivate. It creates a huge unmitigated mess that seems ripe for an accident.

Anyway, I'll now return you to the endless mocking of anyone who dares to mention undesirable sights, sounds, or smells in their neighborhood. Let them eat cake and all that.


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## Ryan (Sep 25, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Anyway, I'll now return you to the endless mocking of anyone who dares to mention undesirable sights, sounds, or smells in their neighborhood. Let them eat cake and all that.


It's a shame that's not what's happening here. There are plenty of things to complain about. Train horns when you choose to live near the railroad tracks isn't one of them.


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## SarahZ (Sep 25, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Anyway, I'll now return you to the endless mocking of anyone who dares to mention undesirable sights, sounds, or smells in their neighborhood. Let them eat cake and all that.


Oh, please. If someone moves next to a railroad crossing, airport, hospital, police station, or major street, they should be darn well prepared to hear some noise. We aren't mocking them; we're pointing out their flawed accusations.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 25, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I'll now return you to the endless mocking of anyone who dares to mention undesirable sights, sounds, or smells in their neighborhood. Let them eat cake and all that.
> ...


What I see is a lot of generalizing about anyone who complains about noises or smells that predated their arrival.

Everything is black-and-white based on whatever arrived first.

By that logic anyone who complains about contamination from the local power plant is an idiot because the plant was there first.

I don't think I can agree with or support that kind of one-sided logic.

Not to mention that millions of lower class Americans don't get to choose if tracks or power plants are next to them or not.

But I guess that's more bout nuance and who needs nuance when we can just mock anyone who disagrees with the majority?


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## John Bobinyec (Sep 25, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> By that logic anyone who complains about contamination from the local power plant is an idiot because the plant was there first.


I think the flaw in your example is that power plants are *not* supposed to produce contamination whereas trains *are* supposed to blow their horns. Can you think of a better example?

jb


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## Ryan (Sep 25, 2013)

Precisely. Contamination is a bad thing, regardless of where it is and when the source was built.

On balance, train horns are a good thing (outside of quiet zones). Moving in next to one and complaining about it only demonstrates a lack of personal responsibility.


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## amamba (Sep 25, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I'll now return you to the endless mocking of anyone who dares to mention undesirable sights, sounds, or smells in their neighborhood. Let them eat cake and all that.
> ...


I live two blocks from a hospital. However, this hospital is smack in the middle of a residental neighborhood and the ambulances are not supposed to use sirens while in the neighborhood. I made sure to research this and understand it before I purchased my home last year.

Now, if they decide to change the policy regarding ambulances, you can certainly bet that I will complain if I start hearing sirens at 2 am. However there is a very active neighborhood association and the hospital is very good about neighborhood relations, so I doubt it would change.

But it would be like if you bought a house next to tracks in a quiet zone. If the quiet zone was somehow removed, would you have a right to be annoyed? Probably.


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## the_traveler (Sep 25, 2013)

It's not just "lower class Americans". Some are "upper class Americans" who complain about train noise or power plants or airport noise in "their neighborhoods", even though those have been located there 50-100 years before they moved there. Also look at the town near TAC that doesn't want the Cascades line to be relocated thru their town. They complain about the passengers trains going thru their town, yet all the freight trains that use the line today are OK. But Amtrak using those tracks? No, no, no, no!


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 25, 2013)

NIMBYs are Everywhere but I'll agree with Chris that Historically the "Poor Part of Town" (ie 'across the tracks") got all the stuff no-one wanted in their Neighborhood! What changes this? Becoming Politically Active and Voting!!! This is what is Scaring the Anti-Rail/Anti-Everything Crowd today hence the Campaign to Supress the Vote!!! h34r:


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## Ryan (Sep 25, 2013)

amamba said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


Sure.
But that isn't the case here.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 25, 2013)

John Bobinyec said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > By that logic anyone who complains about contamination from the local power plant is an idiot because the plant was there first.
> ...


Early power plants had charters that made little or no reference to pollution or safety or efficiency or hundreds of other concerns that came long after the plants were built. Should those plants be grandfathered in or is there something unique about one impact versus another? For instance would there be a noise loud enough or a smell strong enough to compete with lead poisoning? The militarization of noise as a weapon and the ability for a strong smell to wake unconscious people would seem to be proof that it can have a substantial impact on quality of life over time. What about someone who lives in a house near the tracks which they inherited from their parents? Are they not allowed to expect anything better than what they started with without first moving somewhere else? If we really hold to that ideal then we might as well forget about high speed rail since there's no corridor left that won't require moving someone who was there first. Back to the original topic, to my understanding the original purpose of the train horn was safety. If the goal of safe operation can be sufficiently maintained through means other than a horn then what is fundamentally wrong with requesting or supporting such changes?


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## PRR 60 (Sep 25, 2013)

I fail to see the reason for the venom launched toward someone who wants to improve their quality of life. It is like they should not even have the right to question horn use. The railroad has been there for 100 years? So what? If, in 2013, there is a better way of protecting crossings that does not involve horn use, why not ask for it?


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## SarahZ (Sep 25, 2013)

amamba said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


Oh, I agree with that, Amamba. I'm talking about situations where those rules aren't in effect already. I'd certainly agree that removing a Quiet Zone would be bad for the buyers.  I also think it's totally okay to petition for a Quiet Zone. I just find it odd that people are surprised that the trains make noise when they move near train tracks, that's all. I'm not trying to be insulting. It's just... strange to me, that's all.


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## VentureForth (Sep 25, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> I fail to see the reason for the venom launched toward someone who wants to improve their quality of life. It is like they should not even have the right to question horn use. The railroad has been there for 100 years? So what? If, in 2013, there is a better way of protecting crossings that does not involve horn use, why not ask for it?


Because said person will then cause private entity and/or public use of taxpayers money to subsidize the value of the home that they probably paid a reduced price for precisely for that reason.

That being said, All Aboard Florida is about to build several dozen miles of new track. They may be able to do so without any grade crossings, but there may certainly be some. Do folks near them have the right to complain?

Anyone has a right to complain. For something to actually be done about it is a completely different issue.


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## June the Coach Rider (Sep 25, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> I fail to see the reason for the venom launched toward someone who wants to improve their quality of life. It is like they should not even have the right to question horn use. The railroad has been there for 100 years? So what? If, in 2013, there is a better way of protecting crossings that does not involve horn use, why not ask for it?


Sure if the person complaining does not care about having to pay much more for taxes to cover the improvements and to cover the damage that would be caused if the train did not blow its horn to warn that they are coming thru a crossing.


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## JayPea (Sep 25, 2013)

I know exactly what Ryan is talking about when it comes to rural areas. I live in a rural area, and there have been so many complaints by people who move out of the city that want to enjoy a "rural" lifestyle, but then complain about every aspect of rural life, that brochures put out by our county for newcomers mention those things. Such as odors from manure and farm implements. Noises from farm animals and farm implements. Dust. Unpaved roads. Longer response times from emergency personnel. Low-flying aircraft I.E crop dusters. If it were me I'd do a little research about the area I'm moving into. After all, I doubt that cows, horses, sheep, pigs, chickens, with the occasional goat or mule thrown in are going to observe quiet zone restrictions.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 25, 2013)

VentureForth said:


> Because said person will then cause private entity and/or public use of taxpayers money to subsidize the value of the home that they probably paid a reduced price for precisely for that reason.


Removing the sound of a train horn isn't going to cause the fundamental value of a house near the tracks to skyrocket. At best they might get some more sleep at night. Or during the day if they work the night shift. Which might result in a more productive worker over time, but that's about the extent of their direct monetary gain.



SarahZ said:


> Oh, I agree with that, Amamba.


The real question is if you agree with the folks who took it upon themselves to push the hospital to quiet down in the first place.



SarahZ said:


> I also think it's totally okay to petition for a Quiet Zone. I just find it odd that people are surprised that the trains make noise when they move near train tracks, that's all. I'm not trying to be insulting. It's just... strange to me, that's all.


Oh please, indeed.

Go back and read your own posts.

Then tell me where you see the indifferent 'live and let live' attitude.

This isn't an insurance call so feel free to drop the faux compassion anytime.


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## Trainmans daughter (Sep 25, 2013)

> > I also think it's totally okay to petition for a Quiet Zone. I just find it odd that people are surprised that the trains make noise when they move near train tracks, that's all. I'm not trying to be insulting. It's just... strange to me, that's all.
> 
> 
> Oh please, indeed.Go back and read your own posts.Then tell me where you see the indifferent 'live and let live' attitude.This isn't an insurance call so feel free to drop the faux compassion anytime.


That's a pretty mean thing to say to one of the most level-headed clear thinking people on this forum.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 25, 2013)

> > > I also think it's totally okay to petition for a Quiet Zone. I just find it odd that people are surprised that the trains make noise when they move near train tracks, that's all. I'm not trying to be insulting. It's just... strange to me, that's all.
> >
> >
> > Oh please, indeed.Go back and read your own posts.Then tell me where you see the indifferent 'live and let live' attitude.This isn't an insurance call so feel free to drop the faux compassion anytime.
> ...


**LIKE**


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## the_traveler (Sep 25, 2013)

**** MODERATOR'S NOTE ****

Please let's keep things civil here on AU!


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## amamba (Sep 26, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I agree with that, Amamba.
> ...


Well the hospital was initially founded in 1926 with only a few beds, and its current iteration with the ER opened in 1952.

Most of the houses in my neighborhood were built between 1900-1930.

So the houses are older than the hospital....


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## leemell (Sep 26, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> > > > I also think it's totally okay to petition for a Quiet Zone. I just find it odd that people are surprised that the trains make noise when they move near train tracks, that's all. I'm not trying to be insulting. It's just... strange to me, that's all.
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh please, indeed.Go back and read your own posts.Then tell me where you see the indifferent 'live and let live' attitude.This isn't an insurance call so feel free to drop the faux compassion anytime.
> ...


Me too. That was just plain snarky. Please cool you jets.


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## Ryan (Sep 26, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Back to the original topic, to my understanding the original purpose of the train horn was safety. If the goal of safe operation can be sufficiently maintained through means other than a horn then what is fundamentally wrong with requesting or supporting such changes?


Absolutely nothing.
Complaining that "nobody is around to get hit so why can't they just break the rules and not blow the horn" isn't doing that.


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## SarahZ (Sep 26, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> This isn't an insurance call so feel free to drop the faux compassion anytime.


It isn't faux compassion, and neither is the compassion I show at work. That comment was completely unnecessary and unfounded.

Disagreeing with me on a forum is one thing. Using a completely unrelated thing (like how I do my job) to insult me during a debate that has nothing to do with my job is an automatic "loss" for you and shows you're nothing but a troll.

If you wish to insult me or my work performance further, you may send me a private message.


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## SarahZ (Sep 26, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I agree with that, Amamba.
> ...


Yes, I do. As I said, "I think it's okay to petition for a Quiet Zone."

It is possible to change one's mind over the course of a few weeks. That's why people debate a topic, yes?

Are you mad that I changed my mind, or are you mad that you can't pick apart my arguments anymore and have to resort to petty insults? Perhaps both?


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 26, 2013)

Just for the record I tried to answer you but my post was apparently deleted.


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## SarahZ (Sep 26, 2013)

I saw it.


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## the_traveler (Sep 26, 2013)

The posts were not "deleted" but just hidden from view. We (the entire staff, not just me) do not want this (or any other) thread to turn into a "He said, She said" thing, so we ask all members and guests to please keep with the topic of the thread or at the very least to be kind to other members and/or guests of AU. Thank you!


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## Ryan (Sep 26, 2013)

That's really a distinction without a difference for us mere mortals.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 26, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> The posts were not "deleted" but just hidden from view. We (the entire staff, not just me) do not want this (or any other) thread to turn into a "He said, She said" thing, so we ask all members and guests to please keep with the topic of the thread or at the very least to be kind to other members and/or guests of AU. Thank you!


Where in the forum rules does forced kindness show up? My response was severely critical but still civil, which is all the rules demanded last I checked. If you didn't want to see any more debate then you could have deleted hidden the posts that quoted _and_ questioned my motives and were directed at me. Instead you waited until I replied to those inquires and only deleted hid my reply while leaving the inquiries untouched. If neutral by-the-book moderating is your goal then you seem to have missed a step somewhere along the way.


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## AlanB (Sep 26, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Where in the forum rules does forced kindness show up?


No place.



Devil's Advocate said:


> My response was severely critical but still civil, which is all the rules demanded last I checked.


But the rules do mention no personal attacks. And bringing her job into things the way you did IMHO is a personal attack. So much so that I almost deleted that from your post when I saw it yesterday. However, several others had already quoted it and admonished you, so I decided to leave things alone at that point in the hope that you would get the point.



Devil's Advocate said:


> If you didn't want to see any more debate then you could have deleted hidden the posts that quoted _and_ questioned my motives and were directed at me. Instead you waited until I replied to those inquires and only deleted hid my reply while leaving the inquiries untouched.


Your's were not the only posts hidden or deleted. Several others were, including one by Sarah.



Devil's Advocate said:


> If neutral by-the-book moderating is your goal then you seem to have missed a step somewhere along the way.


Please remember that moderating around here is a group effort. Dave just happened to be the one who responded publicly to you. But actions were taken by other staff members in this thread and there has been discussion about this topic within our special moderators forum.


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## NW cannonball (Sep 27, 2013)

Please, posters, mods, most of us on here are looking for information on Amtrak trains -- once in while there's gonna be a squabble - but please cool it - please.

I like and respect the posters and mods involved -- all have contributed lots of good info for a long time - and I expect more good postings from all in the future.

But this "he said" - "she said" has to stop. I don't care if this whole thread is deleted.

And I expect lots of good postings from everyone in the future. Thanks.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 27, 2013)

I have a good idea to keep down the noise on Amtrak, the horns won't be eliminated, but cell-phone usage will be totally banned from 10 PM to 6 AM except in Sleeper rooms given that the door is shut. Any music and audio devices must be used with headphones at all times. Disruptive shouting, yelling, and loud vulgar speech would also be prohibited at all times.

Violators would be put off the train at the next stop with no refund or compensation whatsoever. Extreme violators would face arrest, prosecution, and a fine.

That ought to deal with any excessive noise issues.


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## SarahZ (Sep 27, 2013)

I can hear cell phone conversations through the roomette wall. They aren't as thick as people think.  Still better than having it right in my ear, though.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 27, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> I can hear cell phone conversations through the roomette wall. They aren't as thick as people think.  Still better than having it right in my ear, though.


I've sat in my Roomette seat and I've heard converstions between two people in the neighbouring roomette right behind me. But if you prohibit cell phone use in a "private" Sleeper room, lots of people would get mad.


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## SarahZ (Sep 27, 2013)

Oh, agreed. I'm just being a curmudgeon.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 27, 2013)

SarahZ said:


> Oh, agreed. I'm just being a curmudgeon.


Huh? :unsure:


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## SarahZ (Sep 28, 2013)

A cranky person. Picture me yelling, "Get off my lawn!" That's a curmudgeon. 

Annnnnnd, we're officially way off-topic. Sorry, mods.


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## Trainmans daughter (Sep 28, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, agreed. I'm just being a curmudgeon.
> ...


Curmudgeon--one of my favorite words. Ever seen the movie "UP"? Carl is the perfect curmudgeon. (So is my husband much of the time).


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## amamba (Sep 28, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I have a good idea to keep down the noise on Amtrak, the horns won't be eliminated, but cell-phone usage will be totally banned from 10 PM to 6 AM except in Sleeper rooms given that the door is shut. Any music and audio devices must be used with headphones at all times. Disruptive shouting, yelling, and loud vulgar speech would also be prohibited at all times.
> 
> Violators would be put off the train at the next stop with no refund or compensation whatsoever. Extreme violators would face arrest, prosecution, and a fine.
> 
> That ought to deal with any excessive noise issues.


I do think it would be nice to have quiet cars on additional trains, like they do on the NEC.

I was sitting in the quiet car on a regional recently and there was a college girl that started talking on her cell phone. Everyone around started looking around at each other and rolling their eyes. Finally someone tapped her and let her know that she was in the quiet car and she looked sheepish and left the car. I almost clapped afterward!

In any case, the quiet car is an amazing invention. I love it.


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## jebr (Sep 28, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I have a good idea to keep down the noise on Amtrak, the horns won't be eliminated, but cell-phone usage will be totally banned from 10 PM to 6 AM except in Sleeper rooms given that the door is shut. Any music and audio devices must be used with headphones at all times. Disruptive shouting, yelling, and loud vulgar speech would also be prohibited at all times.
> 
> Violators would be put off the train at the next stop with no refund or compensation whatsoever. Extreme violators would face arrest, prosecution, and a fine.
> 
> That ought to deal with any excessive noise issues.


I would exempt the lounge car from the cell-phone usage rule. Part of the purpose, IMO, of that area is to be an area where people can talk and converse and not disturb their seat neighbors. Calling someone on a cell phone in the lounge car should be acceptable at all times, in my opinion.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 28, 2013)

amamba said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > I have a good idea to keep down the noise on Amtrak, the horns won't be eliminated, but cell-phone usage will be totally banned from 10 PM to 6 AM except in Sleeper rooms given that the door is shut. Any music and audio devices must be used with headphones at all times. Disruptive shouting, yelling, and loud vulgar speech would also be prohibited at all times.
> ...


In her defense she may not have known she was in a quiet, which is probably why she got up & left the car. If she knew she was in the quiet car, she probably would have given you guys dirty looks & stayed in her seat.I've gotten on the quiet car on Septa and not noticed till I was half way to my destination that I was in a quiet car (but I was quiet anyway because I didn't have anyone to talk to).


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## the_traveler (Sep 28, 2013)

Trainmans daughter said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


Also, the late Andy Rooney from "60 Minutes" - the perfect curmudgeon!


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## amamba (Sep 28, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


Oh yeah, I don't think she realized she was in the quiet car - despite the signs hanging from the ceiling and the repeated announcements from conductors....she was kind of in her own little world.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 28, 2013)

Well, I don't notice signs hanging from the ceiling when I'm concentrating on looking for a seat. And as to the announcements, I cannot always understand them, even with my power hearing aids.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 28, 2013)

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > I have a good idea to keep down the noise on Amtrak, the horns won't be eliminated, but cell-phone usage will be totally banned from 10 PM to 6 AM except in Sleeper rooms given that the door is shut. Any music and audio devices must be used with headphones at all times. Disruptive shouting, yelling, and loud vulgar speech would also be prohibited at all times.
> ...


OK, it probably wouldn't be a problem to let people make noise in the lounge at night. But I still believe Amtrak is not cracking down hard enough on disruptions. If you're yelling expletives into your cell phone at 2 AM, you should ge put off ASAP, and with no refund at all. Amtrak needs to Punish those who severly disrupt other passengers.



amamba said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > amamba said:
> ...


Typical unobservant travellers. People who don't pay attention are usually people who are judgemental whiners. Too many people eat things without checking the expiration date or checking the ingrediants.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 28, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


Excuse me? When I'm getting on a train (or bus) I'm looking for a seat. I may "look around" after I find a seat, or I may not. And what the heck does eating things have to do with the this?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 28, 2013)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > jebr said:
> ...


I'm not saying anything against you, I'm just angry at people causing problems on the train.


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## Phil (Jan 12, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Complain to yourself for moving in next to the railroad tracks.


Good answer, did you put much thought into it ? The horn noise has increased over the last year. Id like to find out why .... There doesn't seem to be accountability when it comes to train whistles..


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## HAL (Jan 12, 2014)

Phil said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Complain to yourself for moving in next to the railroad tracks.
> ...


The horn is only blown if there is a reason. Road crossings, railway workers in a work area and passing stations.


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## Ryan (Jan 12, 2014)

Phil said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Complain to yourself for moving in next to the railroad tracks.
> ...


Because there are more trains (or more road crossings, or work going on I suppose). As Hal said above, they have to blow the horn in certain situations.


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## Life before fast trains (May 28, 2014)

Excessive Horn Blowing in area that is protected by miles upon miles of high fencing closing off RR crossings continue to blare their horns. The stretch of rail from Aberdeen MD to Bush River RR crossing is protected by fencing and no vehicles can cross over crossing since the fast trains began decades ago.please stop blowing train horns through this residential area along tracks.


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## NW cannonball (May 28, 2014)

Life before fast trains said:


> Excessive Horn Blowing in area that is protected by miles upon miles of high fencing closing off RR crossings continue to blare their horns. The stretch of rail from Aberdeen MD to Bush River RR crossing is protected by fencing and no vehicles can cross over crossing since the fast trains began decades ago.please stop blowing train horns through this residential area along tracks.


There is a well-defined procedure for establishing a "quiet zone" where the local people who don't like the noise can have their nearby crossing exempted from the whistle warning rule. The neighborhood that wants inattentive drivers to die can upgrade the nearby crossing with clearly specified protections, but it costs money. If the crossing meets the rules, then the trains see a "quiet zone" and don't whistle for the crossing, unless the train drive sees an immediate danger.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 28, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> Life before fast trains said:
> 
> 
> > Excessive Horn Blowing in area that is protected by miles upon miles of high fencing closing off RR crossings continue to blare their horns. The stretch of rail from Aberdeen MD to Bush River RR crossing is protected by fencing and no vehicles can cross over crossing since the fast trains began decades ago.please stop blowing train horns through this residential area along tracks.
> ...


S/he said there's no grade crossing on this section of the NEC (just like in DE). The horn blowing might be because of pedestrian trespassers or workers on/near the tracks.Also, it could be freight trains blowing their horns, not Amtrak trains.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 28, 2014)

There are many quiet zones where I live. Most of the time they work as intended but sometimes a given train will come through and just keep blowing their horn at every crossing. I'm not sure why they do that. If it was active maintenance then wouldn't every train passing through that area be blowing the horn? If it was a tresspasser then why would they need to keep blowing the horn all along the route? I can't help but wonder if the engineer is either forgetting or they just don't care and feel like blowing the horn anyway.


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## amamba (May 28, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> Life before fast trains said:
> 
> 
> > Excessive Horn Blowing in area that is protected by miles upon miles of high fencing closing off RR crossings continue to blare their horns. The stretch of rail from Aberdeen MD to Bush River RR crossing is protected by fencing and no vehicles can cross over crossing since the fast trains began decades ago.please stop blowing train horns through this residential area along tracks.
> ...


I have a friend that just bought a new house, his back yard backs up to the tracks/ROW for the MBTA commuter rail. The two crossings closest to him are "quiet zones" and there are signs at the crossing that say that the train will not blow the horn. My friend has confirmed that he doesn't hear the whistle/horn at the grade crossing.

So yeah. If you don't want to hear the horn than petition and pay for the improvements to the crossing for a quiet zone.


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## seat38a (May 28, 2014)

Here in So Cal, in preparation for the Bullet Train (Hopefully), many of the former at grade crossings have been removed. Now cars go under the railroad bridge. This has eliminated much of the horn blowing that they used to have to do when approaching the at grad crossings. I noticed that when the Sunset Limited was in LA the horn was pretty much constantly blowing the whole way to NOLA. Not sure what area it was, but towards the end of the trip, there was a long stretch where the railroad ran between the a major street with at grade crossings every block or so.


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## George Harris (May 28, 2014)

NW cannonball said:


> Life before fast trains said:
> 
> 
> > Excessive Horn Blowing in area that is protected by miles upon miles of high fencing closing off RR crossings continue to blare their horns. The stretch of rail from Aberdeen MD to Bush River RR crossing is protected by fencing and no vehicles can cross over crossing since the fast trains began decades ago.please stop blowing train horns through this residential area along tracks.
> ...


It is certainly freight trains. As has been said earlier in this thread, I am sure, there are very specific federal requirements for horn blowing, location, volume, and circumstances. These would be the minimums. There are frequently circumstances where additional horn blowing is either required or considered a good idea by the people on the train. As to this "residential area" issue: No one forced these people to build or buy a house that was near a railroad track. Get over it and quit trying to get someone else to pay to fix self inflicted problems that are more preception than reality anyway.


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## Ryan (May 28, 2014)

I'm not sure whether to be more amused by the guest poster who thinks that posting here will get trains to stop using the horn, or the commenters replying that don't realize that they're talking about a section of the NEC with no grade crossings.


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## HAL (May 28, 2014)

Life before fast trains said:


> Excessive Horn Blowing in area that is protected by miles upon miles of high fencing closing off RR crossings continue to blare their horns. The stretch of rail from Aberdeen MD to Bush River RR crossing is protected by fencing and no vehicles can cross over crossing since the fast trains began decades ago.please stop blowing train horns through this residential area along tracks.


The horns are being blown because there are Railway Workers doing track work in that area during the day. Blowing the horn is required.

If it bothers you I suggest looking for a new residence. That is when the track work, that just started is scheduled for completion.....


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