# US trip [train(s) and route] from North Dakota to Kansas City - 1960s



## astroguy (Mar 30, 2020)

Hello,

I am hoping someone who reads this will be able to answer my question. In the 60s as a young boy I took two very memorable and exciting trips via train from Grand Forks, ND (my dad was in the Air Force and stationed at GFAFB) to Alexandria, LA.

The leg from Kansas City to Alexandria was on the KSC's _Southern Belle_. What I not sure of is what train (or trains) would have been taken from Grand Forks to Kansas City. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks! Chris


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2020)

It would help if you could remember just a few more details, as there are so many possible routings, especially in the earlier '60's...
Can you narrow down the date, and if you recall if you went via Chicago, or Minneapolis, or Des Moines, or Omaha? Or any details about which RR or anything about the train? 
With that info, we might be able to offer some possibilites...


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## astroguy (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks for the reply, railiner. The first trip would have likely been Christmastime of 1966. The second one probably occurred in 1968. As I was so young I can't recall details about the route. Since my mom had three little boys with her (and I was the oldest!), I suspect she wanted the fastest route! My dad was not along as I recall... probably flew. I remember there was a diner in the caboose (I think). I ran back there a lot for $1 hamburgers... expensive for the time. I remember stopping a lot but not getting off and switching trains until we were in Kansas City. That's about it...


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 30, 2020)

Were dining-cabooses a thing? That actually sounds like a laugh riot. I'd have spent the whole trip in a McCaboose if I could. Maybe it was more of a trailing observation car with a service counter?


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2020)

I suspect that your mom wanted the fastest and easiest trip, which could be on the Great Northern from Grand Forks to Minneapolis, and then the Chicago and North Western from Minneapolis (they used the GN station), to Kansas City Union Station. I don't have an _Official Guide _ handy, to look up the schedules or trains...

Can you remember any more details? Did you have to take a bus or taxi anywhere to change stations? Do you recall a dome car?


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## ehbowen (Mar 30, 2020)

railiner said:


> I suspect that your mom wanted the fastest and easiest trip, which could be on the Great Northern from Grand Forks to Minneapolis, and then the Chicago and North Western from Minneapolis (they used the GN station), to Kansas City Union Station. I don't have an _Official Guide _ handy, to look up the schedules or trains...
> 
> Can you remember any more details? Did you have to take a bus or taxi anywhere to change stations? Do you recall a dome car?


That looks reasonable; if they had gone via Chicago the quickest route to New Orleans would have been via Illinois Central. I've got homemade stir-fry waiting at Mom's house so I don't have any more time to spend on this, but I'll try to come back to it later.


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## astroguy (Mar 31, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Were dining-cabooses a thing? That actually sounds like a laugh riot. I'd have spent the whole trip in a McCaboose if I could. Maybe it was more of a trailing observation car with a service counter?


Well, my memory is about 50 years old... so perhaps it wasn't in the caboose but I can't recall a car behind it... probably because getting hamburgers was on my mind and there was no reason to try to go further back! But the dining car was certainly behind where we sat at least a few cars because I recall vividly going between them to get there. And there was indeed a grill. And the burgers were exactly $1.


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## astroguy (Mar 31, 2020)

railiner said:


> I suspect that your mom wanted the fastest and easiest trip, which could be on the Great Northern from Grand Forks to Minneapolis, and then the Chicago and North Western from Minneapolis (they used the GN station), to Kansas City Union Station. I don't have an _Official Guide _ handy, to look up the schedules or trains...
> 
> Can you remember any more details? Did you have to take a bus or taxi anywhere to change stations? Do you recall a dome car?


This is very helpful, railiner. Thanks. Don't recall ground transport to change stations or dome car.


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## railiner (Mar 31, 2020)

ehbowen said:


> That looks reasonable; if they had gone via Chicago the quickest route to New Orleans would have been via Illinois Central.


Not likely go by way of New Orleans, as they were on the Southern Belle south of Kansas City, which goes directly to Alexandria...





 The Southern Belle - March, 1968 - Streamliner Schedules


March 1968 timetable for the Southern Belle passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.




www.streamlinerschedules.com


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## railiner (Mar 31, 2020)

astroguy said:


> This is very helpful, railiner. Thanks. Don't recall ground transport to change stations or dome car.


Correction to my earlier post....don't think it was the C&NW from Minneapolis....more likely the Rock Island, and to avoid changing stations in Minneapolis (The Rock used the Milwaukee Road station in the '60's), the transfer would more likely be at St. Paul Union Station. The top trains on those routes were GN's Western Star, and Rock Island's Twin Star Rocket. Not sure about the connection time...could have been secondary trains with better connection's...
Perhaps someone with timetables from that era, could check it out...mine are up in NYC, and I'm in Florida....so this is just from my memory.


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## ehbowen (Mar 31, 2020)

Sorry, I missed that they were going to Alexandria. Lack of sleep. But I was agreeing in a roundabout way; just saying that IF they had gone by way of Chicago then the IC would have been the obvious route south...but they didn't.

Yes, the optimum route would be Grand Forks >>GN >> Minneapolis >>Rock Island>> Kansas City >>KCS>> Alexandria. Reason I didn't see it at first, aside from lack of sleep, is because the _Twin Star Rocket_ disappeared in early 1967 and the second trip was in 1968. However, the Rock didn't drop their Minneapolis-Kansas City service until early 1970; after the connection to Texas was discontinued it was called the _Plainsman_.

Going to bed now, but later tonight I should be able to look up more detailed info. I've certainly got all of the requisite _Official Guides_....


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## astroguy (Apr 1, 2020)

railiner said:


> Correction to my earlier post....don't think it was the C&NW from Minneapolis....more likely the Rock Island, and to avoid changing stations in Minneapolis (The Rock used the Milwaukee Road station in the '60's), the transfer would more likely be at St. Paul Union Station. The top trains on those routes were GN's Western Star, and Rock Island's Twin Star Rocket. Not sure about the connection time...could have been secondary trains with better connection's...
> Perhaps someone with timetables from that era, could check it out...mine are up in NYC, and I'm in Florida....so this is just from my memory.


More great info... thanks!


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## astroguy (Apr 1, 2020)

ehbowen said:


> Sorry, I missed that they were going to Alexandria. Lack of sleep. But I was agreeing in a roundabout way; just saying that IF they had gone by way of Chicago then the IC would have been the obvious route south...but they didn't.
> 
> Yes, the optimum route would be Grand Forks >>GN >> Minneapolis >>Rock Island>> Kansas City >>KCS>> Alexandria. Reason I didn't see it at first, aside from lack of sleep, is because the _Twin Star Rocket_ disappeared in early 1967 and the second trip was in 1968. However, the Rock didn't drop their Minneapolis-Kansas City service until early 1970; after the connection to Texas was discontinued it was called the _Plainsman_.
> 
> Going to bed now, but later tonight I should be able to look up more detailed info. I've certainly got all of the requisite _Official Guides_....


Thanks for the info, ehbowen... I do appreciate it!


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## ehbowen (Apr 1, 2020)

I can (and will) give you more, but these graveyard shifts are a killer. Actually, I already do have timetables up for most of this route, just perhaps not the exact same years of your trip:

Great Northern: _Empire Builder_ or, alternatively, the _Western Star._
Rock Island: _Twin Star Rocket._
Kansas City Southern: _Southern Belle._


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## astroguy (Apr 1, 2020)

Thanks for the info... really appreciate it!


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## railiner (Apr 1, 2020)

ehbowen said:


> I can (and will) give you more, but these graveyard shifts are a killer. Actually, I already do have timetables up for most of this route, just perhaps not the exact same years of your trip:
> 
> Great Northern: _Empire Builder_ or, alternatively, the _Western Star._
> Rock Island: _Twin Star Rocket._
> Kansas City Southern: _Southern Belle._


I don't think the Empire Builder went thru Grand Forks at that time, believe it used the Cutoff....


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## ehbowen (Apr 1, 2020)

railiner said:


> I don't think the Empire Builder went thru Grand Forks at that time, believe it used the Cutoff....



You are correct. He would have taken either the _Winnipeg Limited_ or the _Dakotan_.

Attached are three timetable sections from the October 1966 _Official Guide: _(most of) the Great Northern pages; the Rock Island pages; and the Kansas City Southern pages. Enjoy.


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## ehbowen (Apr 1, 2020)

Corresponding pages from July 1968. You'll notice a precipitous drop in levels and amount of service.


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## Palmland (Apr 1, 2020)

The schedules posted by ehbowen are interesting. Even in 1966 only the Golden State had ‘Pullman Cars’. But I wonder about the Twin Star Rocket to Southern Belle connection. It would have required an overnight stay in KC. Maybe the OP can tell us if he recalls that.


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## ehbowen (Apr 1, 2020)

Palmland said:


> The schedules posted by ehbowen are interesting. Even in 1966 only the Golden State had ‘Pullman Cars’. But I wonder about the Twin Star Rocket to Southern Belle connection. It would have required an overnight stay in KC. Maybe the OP can tell us if he recalls that.


Perhaps that's why he remembers the Kansas City connection but not the one in Minneapolis. Just guessing, of course.


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## astroguy (Apr 8, 2020)

I do recall staying in a downtown KC hotel. Always assumed we had driven on that ND to LA trip... so maybe on the first trip (winter '66) we stayed in a hotel and on the later trip ('68 or '69) we slept in a sleeper car... I recall that vividly and loved the experience!


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