# Small plane discussion



## Bob Dylan

Dakota 400 said:


> Thanks for your reply. I have never flown on that small of a plane. My smallest was on an Air Canada turbo(?) prop plane that seated not many with just a pilot and co-pilot; no flight attendant. There were, I recall, 5 or 6 passengers on the plane and we were "social distancing" even then. The co-pilot came into the cabin to space us out even more due to balancing issues. (My seat ended up just forward of the sliding door restroom at the very back of the plane.)


Rode many a mile in that type of Plane! Called them TTA, Tree Top Airlines!


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## PVD

Sounds like "essential air service" on Cape Airlines in upstate NY. Always thought is was short for "Cape Fear"


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## Dakota 400

Bob Dylan said:


> Rode many a mile in that type of Plane! Called them TTA, Tree Top Airlines!



They did not fly very high; don't think they were pressurized. I remember a Summer trip between Dayton and Toronto when it was HOT on the ground and flying above Lake Erie, I could have used a sweater at whatever altitude we were at. 

Air Canada's service was always great. I enjoyed my flights because they were "different". And Toronto's International Airport (Pearson?) is an airport that I enjoyed arriving and departing.


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## Exvalley

Here is what I flew.


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## PVD

Cessna 402 series


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## Exvalley

PVD said:


> Cessna 402 series


They are transitioning to Tencams. I didn’t get lucky, though.


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## Palmetto

Bob Dylan said:


> Rode many a mile in that type of Plane! Called them TTA, Tree Top Airlines!



Didn't "Treetop" AKA Trans Texas, become Southwest? Or is that just urban myth?


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## NS VIA Fan

Dakota 400 said:


> They did not fly very high; don't think they were pressurized. I remember a Summer trip between Dayton and Toronto when it was HOT on the ground and flying above Lake Erie, I could have used a sweater at whatever altitude we were at.
> 
> Air Canada's service was always great. I enjoyed my flights because they were "different". And Toronto's International Airport (Pearson?) is an airport that I enjoyed arriving and departing.



That would be an Air Georgian Beech 1900D operating as Air Canada Express. They flew from Dayton to YYZ Pearson.

Some of my most enjoyable flights have been on small aircraft. Here's my trip report from several years ago....flying into an Indigenous Community along the Labrador coast for work on a 19 passenger Twin Otter.

Airport Hopping Along The Coast - 2 - Airliners.net


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## Trogdor

Palmetto said:


> Didn't "Treetop" AKA Trans Texas, become Southwest? Or is that just urban myth?



Never heard that one before. Nonetheless, it isn’t true.

Southwest was a brand new airline started from scratch by Herb Kelleher and Rollin King, neither of whom, as far as I can tell, had any connection to Trans Texas.

Trans Texas became Texas International, which eventually became part of the multi-airline conglomerate in the 80s that wound up as Continental Airlines and, today, United.


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## Bob Dylan

Palmetto said:


> Didn't "Treetop" AKA Trans Texas, become Southwest? Or is that just urban myth?


Southwest was begun in Dallas by Herb Kelleher and others as a Start up. TTA was a seperate,earlier Texas Airline that became Continential, and eventually United. Braniff was the other Texas Airline.


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## PVD

I wouldn't say became United, as much as merged into, as Continental existed pre Texas Air and pondscum Frank Lorenzo (remember "The Proud Bird With the Golden Tail" or We Really Shake Our Tails For You" ad campaigns) and in the case of the Continental United merger, the larger unionized United was the "surviving entity" Actually, UAL bought CO in a stock deal.


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## gwolfdog

Bob Dylan said:


> Rode many a mile in that type of Plane! Called them TTA, Tree Top Airlines!


Flying out of Texas from Fort Polk, used Trans Texas Airline for a Connection. TTA. DC-8?


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## Asher

Exvalley said:


> Here is what I flew.



One of my brothers had a lot of time in a 402, Flying National Cash Register personal from Hawthorne to Palomar airport. I got a couple of rides in it, first turbo charged small plane I’d been in. It was a earlier model, had wing tip tanks. No mask required back then.


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## Bob Dylan

gwolfdog said:


> Flying out of Texas from Fort Polk, used Trans Texas Airline for a Connection. TTA. DC-8?


I never flew on a TTA Jet,. only Prop jobs.

Another one was Rio, that flew out of Killeen,Tx( Fort Hood) and other small Airports for Connections in the Large Cities.


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## PVD

TTA had DC-3, later, ex AA Convair 240 that they rebuilt/reengined as CV-600 turb-props, and Beech 99....DC-9s came along in 66, a couple of years before before the change to TIA


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## Dakota 400

NS VIA Fan said:


> That would be an Air Georgian Beech 1900D operating as Air Canada Express. They flew from Dayton to YYZ Pearson.



Air Georgian was the Air Canada affiliate. I looked up information about the plane on Wikipedia with pictures and checked the SeatGuru site for seating plan. The seating plan looked familiar; the photos of the plane did not. But, it has been several years ago since I was able to fly a DAY-YYZ non-stop. My memory probably is faulty.


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## Dakota 400

Exvalley said:


> Here is what I flew.
> 
> View attachment 18176



That is not the plane on which I flew.


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## PVD

Guilty as charged, it's just a habit when I see a post, I read it and if I have something to add or comment on I sort of jump in and do it. It was a pretty interesting topic, my suggesting moving it to a different thread would have been appropriate.


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## trainman74

I happen to have a timetable in my collection from just after the parent company of the former Trans-Texas (rebranded as Texas International) took over Continental, and the operations hadn't yet been combined under the Continental name. (I realize this _still_ doesn't have anything to do with face masks, but I'm not sure there's much else to say about face masks that wouldn't run afoul of the "no politics" rule.)


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## RichieRich

I get deleted posts for "not related" but an AIRLINE Thread...not so much!?!?!?!?!!? So let me talk about my old DC-3 flights to Key West in the old days before they started jet travel there.


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## RichieRich

Exvalley said:


> Yes. The Pilot is right there with you. There is no cockpit.


I fly Cape Air from Boston-to-our P-Town condo....someone actually sits in the "co-pilot" seat. I know this has nothing to do with Amtrak, but doesn't seem to be an issue here!


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## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> Southwest was begun in Dallas by Herb Kelleher and others as a Start up. TTA was a seperate,earlier Texas Airline that became Continential, and eventually United. Braniff was the other Texas Airline.


I was a loyal Southwest customer while Herb was running the show. Many people refused to fly them due to the lack of premium cabins and assigned seating, but nonstop flights that bypass hubs are their own kind of luxury. Contrary to their reputation Southwest rarely sold the cheapest excursion fares but last minute travel was easily half the cost of a walk-up legacy ticket. I liked what I saw of Continental but didn't fly them enough to have a strong opinion and never flew Braniff.


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## SarahZ

RichieRich said:


> I get deleted posts for "not related" but an AIRLINE Thread...not so much!?!?!?!?!!?


Because we're in the "Non-Rail Transportation" forum.


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## PVD

Some 40 years ago, during my electrical apprenticeship I had a second job as manager of a roller skating rink. The primary owner was an experienced pilot, both fixed wing and helicopter. He wanted to get some time in, and rented a Cessna 172. There was a tiny airport near the rink called Flushing Airport that had a tiny sliver of a corridor through a very busy TCA. Went for a ride up to Middletown (Orange County) and back. Having all that LaGuardia traffic around us coming back in was to say the least "disconcerting"


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## Bob Dylan

PVD said:


> Some 40 years ago, during my electrical apprenticeship I had a second job as manager of a roller skating rink. The primary owner was an experienced pilot, both fixed wing and helicopter. He wanted to get some time in, and rented a Cessna 172. There was a tiny airport near the rink called Flushing Airport that had a tiny sliver of a corridor through a very busy TCA. Went for a ride up to Middletown (Orange County) and back. Having all that LaGuardia traffic around us coming back in was to say the least "disconcerting"


Reminds me of my first Solo Cross Country as a Student Pilot when I had to go through the DFW TCA to land @ Redbird Airport!


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## railiner

PVD said:


> Some 40 years ago, during my electrical apprenticeship I had a second job as manager of a roller skating rink. The primary owner was an experienced pilot, both fixed wing and helicopter. He wanted to get some time in, and rented a Cessna 172. There was a tiny airport near the rink called Flushing Airport that had a tiny sliver of a corridor through a very busy TCA. Went for a ride up to Middletown (Orange County) and back. Having all that LaGuardia traffic around us coming back in was to say the least "disconcerting"


Yeah...I remember "Speeds" flying service...I used to ride my bike over there, grab some food at Adventurer's Inn, and go watch the 'action', such as it was...


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## PVD

It was in bad shape towards the end. flooded, closed reopened. What I thought was cool was when they tied up an occasional Goodyer Blimp.


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## railiner

PVD said:


> It was in bad shape towards the end. flooded, closed reopened. What I thought was cool was when they tied up an occasional Goodyer Blimp.


Yes, it certainly was a sad sight...towards the end I recall an NYPD and a radio news and traffic helicopter based there...


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## PVD

May have had a special reason to stay up there, their home base is Floyd Bennet Field. They have a pretty large fleet of modern turbine helicopters now. With the Coast Guard reducing presence in the waters around NYC, NYPD Air/Sea Rescue will respond to a 60 mile radius, and they get many calls from USCG since they have to come up from Atlantic City. 2 NYPD Scuba divers are always at the base to respond immediately and begin rescue, since they can often be there way before a boat. One of my assistant coaches for a few seasons when I was coaching was a scuba dive team officer who had that assignment. Sadly, his 9-11 recovery work scarred his lungs and reduced his breathing capacity, not exactly what you need for scuba......


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## Asher

A route that is fun to reminisce about here in So Cal Is the trip to Catalina Island from Long Beach in the 8 place Grumman Goose Seaplanes. They would land at Avalon out side the harbor, taxi inside to a dock to unload then go back out and take off for the west end of the Island and land on the backside of the Isthmus, taxi up a ramp and unload the passenger/ passengers where you got on a Model A Ford towed tram to the front side. I took that trip many times on Sunday and then sail back with my father who had sailed over on Friday. Those flights ended after a couple of incidents. One of which I don't think they ever found the plane or pilot. It was fun while it lasted though. A four engine seaplane flew to Avalon regularly from San Diego also. I saw it in the air, never was at Avalon when it landed, They always made a big deal of the occasion when I got there, so I'm told.


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## PVD

Not far from the location that Railiner and I mention there is a floatplane tie-off that served the EDO Electronics (military hardware/now part of L3Harris) factory on Flushing Bay in College Point near LaGuardia Airport. It still shows up on charts, the factory is long gone....


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## NS VIA Fan

France to Canada in less than an Hour on a Reims-Cessna F406!





I posted the link below several years ago. Currently flights to Canada are temporarily suspended due to Covid except an ATR 42-500 Turboprop to Montreal and also a Transatlantic '737 to Paris.

France to Canada in 44 minutes.

Home - Air Saint-Pierre


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## Bob Dylan

NS VIA Fan said:


> France to Canada in less than an Hour on a Reims-Cessna F406!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted the link below several years ago. Currently flights to Canada are temporarily suspended due to Covid except an ATR 42-500 Turboprop to Montreal and also a Transatlantic '737 to Paris.
> 
> France to Canada in 44 minutes.
> 
> Home - Air Saint-Pierre


Wow, Crossing the Atlantic in that Small of Plane!

How comfortable was it?


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## Devil's Advocate

[...]


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## NS VIA Fan

Bob Dylan said:


> Wow, Crossing the Atlantic in that Small of Plane!
> 
> How comfortable was it?




St. Pierre is a Territory of France and the flight over the Atlantic (actually part of the Gulf of St Lawrence/Cabot Strait) to Sydney, Nova Scotia took just 44 minutes......and I assume that short a flight would have been quite comfortable on a Cessna F406.

If Covid hadn't hit this year.....a new Ferry service was to have started. Drive your car on in Newfoundland and 90 minutes later drive off in 'France'.

SPM Ferries

St. Pierre is 12 miles from Newfoundland. The citizens are French, the currency used is the Euro and the Wine.....Excellent!


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## Bob Dylan

NS VIA Fan said:


> St. Pierre is a Territory of France and the flight over Atlantic (actually part of the Gulf of St Lawrence/Cabot Strait) to Sydney, Nova Scotia took just 44 minutes......and I assume that short a flight would have been quite comfortable on a Cessna F406.
> 
> If Covid hadn't hit this year.....a new Ferry service was to have started. Drive your car on in Newfoundland and 90 minutes later drive off in 'France'.
> 
> SPM Ferries
> 
> St. Pierre is 12 miles from Newfoundland. The citizens are French, the currency used is the Euro and the Wine.....Excellent!


Thanks, I didnt know that and I'm a Big Fan of Canada!


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## PVD

The anti matter universe Channel Islands...


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## siberianmo

Figured I would chime in with some aircraft stories of my own. 

Back in 1959 upon arriving in Anchorage Alaska (Elmendorf AFB) aboard a Pacific Northern Airlines (PNA) Lockheed Constellation from Seattle,WA I transferred to a PNA DC3 bound for Kodiak via Homer. The seat "back" I had was a washing machine - yes, a washing machine which was unloaded at Homer. The seat was then restored to a semblance of normalcy for the final leg to Kodiak.

During my 18-month stint aboard a Coast Guard buoy tender out of Kodiak I had the occasion to meet and befriend a local who owned a Piper Cub; sorry but I cannot provide any details other than: the "co-pilot" side door had no operating latch. However, there was a rope in a loop configuration that one wrapped around an arm to keep it shut whilst flying. Yes, that is no exaggeration. 

How did I meet this guy? During in-port times and of course not having the "duty," I was a part-time bartender at one of several joints all lost during the 1964 quake and tsunami. We met up one night and for some odd reason just became friends.

This guy, an unforgettable character if there ever was one, taught me how to fly that plane - what an experience. We flew from Kodiak to Anchorage and back in Alaska-style; hopping from one air strip to another and at altitudes requiring frequent changes of underwear. 

In those times, the GI Bill had a provision that would pay for flight school. I never pursued it and as luck would have it, that "benefit" ran out along with several others back in the day.

My flying experiences since have all been as a passenger and whenever take offs and landings occur, it is hard to forget the first time I did such a thing in that old Piper.

Cheers!


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## siberianmo

NS VIA Fan said:


> France to Canada in less than an Hour on a Reims-Cessna F406!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted the link below several years ago. Currently flights to Canada are temporarily suspended due to Covid except an ATR 42-500 Turboprop to Montreal and also a Transatlantic '737 to Paris.
> 
> France to Canada in 44 minutes.
> 
> Home - Air Saint-Pierre


Had to read that comment a few times in order to appreciate your meaning! 

Been to St. Pierre by means of a US Coast Guard vessel - this all before your country had a CG of your own. Back then, we did the Search & Rescue, International Ice Patrol off of Newfoundland, Labrador and Greenland and of course the Grand Banks.

Nice looking aircraft . . .

Cheers!


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## railiner

NS VIA Fan said:


> St. Pierre is a Territory of France and the flight over the Atlantic (actually part of the Gulf of St Lawrence/Cabot Strait) to Sydney, Nova Scotia took just 44 minutes......
> 
> St. Pierre is 12 miles from Newfoundland. The citizens are French, the currency used is the Euro and the Wine.....Excellent!


And they drive Citroen's, Renault's, and Peugeot's.....


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## ehbowen

This ISN'T me, but this is the airplane which I learned to fly in...including solo and checkride. (No gyros [except TC]...needle, ball, & airspeed under the hood!)

Edit To Add: Oh, by the way...I was flying out of William P. Hobby airport! (Class B TCA primary!)




Some time let me tell you about my solo cross-country...


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## Bob Dylan

ehbowen said:


> This ISN'T me, but this is the airplane which I learned to fly in...including solo and checkride. (No gyros [except TC]...needle, ball, & airspeed under the hood!)
> 
> Edit To Add: Oh, by the way...I was flying out of William P. Hobby airport! (Class B TCA primary!)
> 
> View attachment 18246
> 
> 
> Some time let me tell you about my solo cross-country...


Most of us have some pretty good Hangar Stories about our Solo Cross Country Trips, some are even True!


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## Asher

Y'all wearing a nice shirt when you soloed that Citrabia


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## ehbowen

anumberone said:


> Y'all wearing a nice shirt when you soloed that Citrabia


Again, that's not my photo; I didn't want to break your monitor. (And I don't have any photos of my flying days, unfortunately.) Actually I brought along an extra T-shirt the day I soloed, thinking that my instructor might want to do the 'clipping' thing, but he was too busy that day. Oh, well.

I had two excellent instructors, both older gentlemen. Bob McDaniel, an Air Force Wild Weasel pilot, took me from first lesson through my solo in the Decathlon. Then he found an opening as a charter jet pilot; his plan from the beginning was to move me into a Cessna 172 for the second half of my instruction when I had to learn basic instrument maneuvers. Jon Disler, a superbly experienced instructor whose day job was working for NASA, took me up under the hood in that Skyhawk in actual IMC (just barely...light clouds/rain). When I didn't panic and kept full control of the airplane even when he partial-paneled me, he said, "You know, I think you really could finish this up in that Decathlon." And I did. He also taught me basic aerobatics after exacting a promise, which I kept, not to practice them solo until I had my private ticket in hand.

I was a student at Fletcher Aviation at Hobby; my checkride was administered by WWII flight instructor Maybelle Fletcher. I had a nervous moment when she wanted me to do a full power-on stall; in a Decathlon that's basically an aerobatic maneuver and you're hanging on the prop. Sure enough, it snapped. I caught it in a quarter-turn; she said, "WHAT was THAT?" But she was impressed that I caught it so quickly; she had me repeat the maneuver with a little less power and I had no problem with that. That was my only glitch, she signed my ticket as soon as we landed back at Hobby.

Did I mention that my final checkride prep dual lesson the night before finished up with spins and recovery, under the hood, at night?


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## VentureForth

Trying to get back into flying after 20 years. Getting a second class medical next week. My body sure has changed in the last two decades! I keep my CFI current but it'll take a bit to get back into being VFR/IFR confident.

For thread continuity, I have a few hours in a Citabria. Great plane! Never got my tail wheel endorsement though. Finiky they are!


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## Asher

ehbowen said:


> Again, that's not my photo; I didn't want to break your monitor. (And I don't have any photos of my flying days, unfortunately.) Actually I brought along an extra T-shirt the day I soloed, thinking that my instructor might want to do the 'clipping' thing, but he was too busy that day. Oh, well.
> 
> I had two excellent instructors, both older gentlemen. Bob McDaniel, an Air Force Wild Weasel pilot, took me from first lesson through my solo in the Decathlon. Then he found an opening as a charter jet pilot; his plan from the beginning was to move me into a Cessna 172 for the second half of my instruction when I had to learn basic instrument maneuvers. Jon Disler, a superbly experienced instructor whose day job was working for NASA, took me up under the hood in that Skyhawk in actual IMC (just barely...light clouds/rain). When I didn't panic and kept full control of the airplane even when he partial-paneled me, he said, "You know, I think you really could finish this up in that Decathlon." And I did. He also taught me basic aerobatics after exacting a promise, which I kept, not to practice them solo until I had my private ticket in hand.
> 
> I was a student at Fletcher Aviation at Hobby; my checkride was administered by WWII flight instructor Maybelle Fletcher. I had a nervous moment when she wanted me to do a full power-on stall; in a Decathlon that's basically an aerobatic maneuver and you're hanging on the prop. Sure enough, it snapped. I caught it in a quarter-turn; she said, "WHAT was THAT?" But she was impressed that I caught it so quickly; she had me repeat the maneuver with a little less power and I had no problem with that. That was my only glitch, she signed my ticket as soon as we landed back at Hobby.
> 
> Did I mention that my final checkride prep dual lesson the night before finished up with spins and recovery, under the hood, at night?


Congratulations on your accomplishment. I've spent a lot of time looking out the front window of small planes, very little from the left side though. My twin is a flight instructor, so I've had the opportunity, but never the desire. You will have to post your first cross country flight. It's a true experience.


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## basketmaker

Bob Dylan said:


> Rode many a mile in that type of Plane! Called them TTA, Tree Top Airlines!


There was a "TTA" Trans-Texas Airways years ago. One of their DC-3's (N18121) still flies today at 83 years old. She flew from Albany, OR to France for the D-Day Memorial a couple of years. I've had the honor of being a flight attendant on her back in the 70's.


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## B757Guy

Some cool stories here! Thanks for sharing. I still recall the first day I flew the T-37 in the Air Force. My instructor was teaching me spins. He could spin the T-37, call a heading, and roll right out onto it. I on the other hand, was simply trying to remember if I leveled the wings first, or used opposite rudder, while trying not to puke!


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## PVD

Sort of funny how the bug bites some and stays for life, but some folks turn blasé. I have a friend who flew F-9s in a ground support role in Korea, but never flew again after the war...


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## NS VIA Fan

Here's some shots flying on a Twin Otter into Natuashish, Labrador for work (I posted a few shots previously from another Twin Otter flight)









Now heading home after a week in the Indigenous Community:









On the way back.....we stopped in Nain. A busy little airport with 3 flights from 2 airlines in at the same time (and I just walked around the ramp as we refueled)









.....then we continue on to Goose Bay.









There is no CATSA (TSA type) security on these small regional aircraft......but once back in Goose Bay there's full clearance required for the Air Canada Express CRJ over to Halifax.


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## Asher

PVD said:


> Sort of funny how the bug bites some and stays for life, but some folks turn blasé. I have a friend who flew F-9s in a ground support role in Korea, but never flew again after the war...


Yeah, I don’t know. A guy I used to scuba dive with was an instructor in B17 bombers during the war and also never flew again.


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## Bob Dylan

basketmaker said:


> There was a "TTA" Trans-Texas Airways years ago. One of their DC-3's (N18121) still flies today at 83 years old. She flew from Albany, OR to France for the D-Day Memorial a couple of years. I've had the honor of being a flight attendant on her back in the 70's.View attachment 18291


I flew in many a DC-3/ C-47 Gooney Bird as a Passenger and Co-Pilot, but never as Pilot in Command.( I dont have a Multi-Engine Rating).

EZ to Fly, the workhorse of WW-II and the Airlines after the War.

Probably, along with the 737, the Longest Lasting Commercial Aircraft well ever see.


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## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> I flew in many a DC-3/ C-47 Gooney Bird as a Passenger and Co-Pilot, but never as Pilot in Command.( I dont have a Multi-Engine Rating).
> 
> EZ to Fly, the workhorse of WW-II and the Airlines after the War.
> 
> Probably, along with the 737, the Longest Lasting Commercial Aircraft well ever see.


737, maybe. 747, was around 10 years before the 737. Also a lot better looking. 
But, A DC3 is something to see and hope they can keep flying


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## PVD

actually, the maiden flight of the 737 was before the 747, but it (747) sure was better looking, especially back then. The 737-100 (not very many built), and the 200 were not very attractive, with the skinny looking JT8s under the wing looking like they didn't belong...


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## Willbridge

anumberone said:


> Yeah, I don’t know. A guy I used to scuba dive with was an instructor in B17 bombers during the war and also never flew again.


In 1975 I was on the Salem>Portland Commuter Club bus and commented to my seatmate that the thunderheads that were building up over the farms looked beautiful. He was a quiet rider, who had been making the commute since before I-5 was built. He worked for Childrens Services and did not talk about his job. But, he eyed the clouds and told me, in a modest tone, "about" how high they were. Knowing what career field he was in, I had to ask him how he knew that. It turned out that he was a veteran of flying DC-3's over the Hump.


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## Bob Dylan

My First Flight Instructor flew B-29s during WWII ( as Did my Dad), but he would never talk about it. Best pilot I ever saw or flew with, he was a Master with a plane!

I found out that he was the Co-Pilot on the B-29 that dropped the 2nd Atomic Bomb on Nagasaki, so I understood why he didnt want to to dwell on it.( neither would my dad who flew Fire Bomb Missions over Japan from Tinian/ His Squadron Dropped the 1st Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima)


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## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> My First Flight Instructor flew B-29s during WWII ( as Did my Dad), but he would never talk about it. Best pilot I ever saw or flew with, he was a Master with a plane!
> 
> I found out that he was the Co-Pilot on the B-29 that dropped the 2nd Atomic Bomb on Nagasaki, so I understood why he didnt want to to dwell on it.( neither would my dad who flew Fire Bomb Missions over Japan from Tinian/ His Squadron Dropped the 1st Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima)



Damn Jim, I'm thoroughly impressed..I have went thru- The B29 that dropped the bomb on Nagasaki, maybe you have also. It's at the museum in Dayton Ohio. It's slightly cut away for access to walk through. Ironically it's name is Bockscar.


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## Bob Dylan

anumberone said:


> I have went thru- The B29 that dropped the bomb on Nagasaki, maybe you have also. It's at the museum in Dayton Ohio. It's slightly cut away for access to walk through. Ironically it's name is Bockscar.


Only have seen pics, I haven't been there!


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## PVD

Enola Gay is at the Udvar-Hazy branch of the Air and Space out by Dulles. Interestingly that group of B-29s were built by Glen Martin rather than Boeing, at that time anyone who could build something, did. Forgot whether Ford built 17's or 24's to pitch in.


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## Asher

PVD said:


> Enola Gay is at the Udvar-Hazy branch of the Air and Space out by Dulles. Interestingly that group of B-29s were built by Glen Martin rather than Boeing, at that time anyone who could build something, did. Forgot whether Ford built 17's or 24's to pitch in.


It's amazing how they was able to crank up that whole war machine and how quick they evolved to match the requirements.


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## Bob Dylan

PVD said:


> Enola Gay is at the Udvar-Hazy branch of the Air and Space out by Dulles. Interestingly that group of B-29s were built by Glen Martin rather than Boeing, at that time anyone who could build something, did. Forgot whether Ford built 17's or 24's to pitch in.


I've seen the Enola Gay,(love the Air and Space )and Several other B-29s, even got a ride in the last one flying that belongs to the old Confederate Air Force, now the Commenrative Air Force.


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## gswager

Fascinating stories! I've flew on DC-3 plane during the municipal airport air show. It was my first ride with tail wheel which is very fascinating. You can't see the runway ahead from the cockpit.

I've flown in 6 seat Cessna, sail plane twice, and small commercial props outside of TSA area.


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## PVD

Used to see them here occasionally, both Air New England and PBA had them in short haul service.


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## railiner

Had my one flight aboard PBA's N136PB , at the time, the highest airtime commercial aircraft. Took Amtrak's _Cape Codder _from New York to Hyannis, and then flew from there to Logan. It was crammed with 28, instead of the designed 21 seats. I pointed out oil leaking from the engine nacelle to the flight attendant. She said she would tell the Captain. She came back, and told me the Captain said not to worry, it's normal. Said to only worry if it _stops _leaking oil...









High Time DC-3 18121


function googleTranslateElementInit() { new google.translate.TranslateElement({pageLanguage: ‘en’, autoDisplay: false}, ‘google_translate_element’); } By Henry M. Holden The…



dc3dakotahistory.org


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## railiner

That the DC-3 was 'over-engineered' is ably demonstrated by the fact that they were able to add 33% more seating to it, without any major modifications that I am aware of....how many of today's modern regional aircraft of similar size could duplicate that feat? Not any, I suspect....


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## Bob Dylan

railiner said:


> That the DC-3 was 'over-engineered' is ably demonstrated by the fact that they were able to add 33% more seating to it, without any major modifications that I am aware of....how many of today's modern regional aircraft of similar size could duplicate that feat? Not any, I suspect....


As a kid I heard many a story from my dads C-47 Pilot friends from WWII and Korea.

It was amazing how you could overload these workhorses and long as the engines were working and the wings were still on, they'd keep on flying!

I was flying as Co-pilot on a Joy ride on a DC-3 that was older than me, and both engines quit, yet it glided just like a bird into a soft landing in a Corn field.


----------



## PVD

Much easier to keep a non pressurized plane going as they age....


----------



## Dakota 400

Bob Dylan said:


> Only have seen pics, I haven't been there!



Come visit us! The National Museum of the Air Force is chock full of interesting aviation and space displays, including some former Presidential planes.


----------



## MARC Rider

PVD said:


> Used to see them here occasionally, both Air New England and PBA had them in short haul service.


Ah, Air New England. Back when I was in college, my girlfriend wanted to fly up to Maine to spend some time at the cabin with me and my family. She booked a ticked from New York to Auburn/Lewiston, which we thought was the closest airport to us. When we arrived to pick her up, we found the airport was closed because they were digging up the runway. I think there were instructions to drive over to PWM (Portland) and find your passengers there. So that's what we did. Well, the whole place was a mess, and people were wondering where the passengers were. Finally, someone at the airline managed to determine that mt girlfriend was stuck at Logan and couldn't figure out which flight to take. In the end, the put her on a flight to Augusta, so we had to drive up there. The plane finally came in, it was a DC-3. My girlfriend sort of staggered off, looking a little green around the gills. 

We still couldn't figure out how Air New England managed to sell tickets to a closed airport. We also found out that the drive back to the cabin from Augusta was shorter than that from Auburn/Lewiston, so for a wile, when people flew up, they flew to Augusta. Now we don't bother with the commuter airlines, we either just fly to PWM or fly to Logan and and take the Concord Coach up to Augusta. I like to take the Acela and rent a car in Boston.


----------



## Palmland

As a big treat, my grandmother took me on my first airplane ride from Clarksville, TN to Nashville - around 50 miles - to visit relatives. It was a big deal for a kid and I remember being impressed with the sloping aisle in the plane and amazed at the view of the treetops. This was on Ozark airlines in the 50's. In 2009 we were driving to my son's wedding in Key West and I about ran off the road when I spotted this at the Marathon airport. A detour and photos through the fence were required! 

My wife's dad was a bomber pilot in WWII and flew them all. We still have the bullet from the cockpit he dug out in flying over the South Pacific. Our favorite photo is of him and his crew in Sloppy Joe's c.1942. All were in full uniform and were based in Havana for training exercises. They had no idea what the nest few years would bring.


----------



## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> As a kid I heard many a story from my dads C-47 Pilot friends from WWII and Korea.
> 
> It was amazing how you could overload these workhorses and long as the engines were working and the wings were still on, they'd keep on flying!
> 
> I was flying as Co-pilot on a Joy ride on a DC-3 that was older than me, and both engines quit, yet it glided just like a bird into a soft landing in a Corn field.


Wow, that had to be an experience. Gotta watch those fuel Gage's


----------



## Bob Dylan

anumberone said:


> Wow, that had to be an experience. Gotta watch those fuel Gage's


Yep, those old engines really sucked up the gas!


----------



## Asher

When I worked at United Airlines they still had a few DC3. It is weird looking up at the angle from the door to the front seat.

Forward visibility in a tail dragger type aircraft is zilch while taxiing. I was looking in the cockpit of the replica of The Spirit Of St. Louis that Charles Lindbergh flew across the Atlantic to Paris. Their was no forward visibility at all at any time. All you could see forward was a very limited panel with a steel rod that was bent at 90° protruding out of the center of the panel. Had to do with fuel tank selection. If I remember their was a fuel tank right in front of him.Talmantz Aviation built the plane from scratch and Frank Talman Landed it at the big Paris Airshow recreating Lindbergh landing there after his historic flight. It was also used in the movie.


----------



## Willbridge

During the 1966 airline pilots' strike, Dow Jones chartered two DC-3's from Carolina Aircraft Corp. (may not have the name exactly right). They flew the _Wall Street Journal_ and _Barron's _which were printed in Palo Alto. One flight ran SFO>PDX>SEA>SFO and the other flew SFO>RNO>SLC>SFO. They took turns on each route. My dad, who was the DJ wholesaler in Oregon loved their reliability; they flew through all kinds of weather, weather that would have caused United to cancel or overfly us in Portland. We customers provided the ground crew.

He also recollects the outfit as being straight out of "Terry and the Pirates" - a comic strip and radio serial that a couple of people here may recall. The co-pilot wore a scarf and had a little black book with lots of women's phone numbers. The company's previous job was flying parts and supplies for a tin mine in Peru.


----------



## Asher

Willbridge said:


> During the 1966 airline pilots' strike, Dow Jones chartered two DC-3's from Carolina Aircraft Corp. (may not have the name exactly right). They flew the _Wall Street Journal_ and _Barron's _which were printed in Palo Alto. One flight ran SFO>PDX>SEA>SFO and the other flew SFO>RNO>SLC>SFO. They took turns on each route. My dad, who was the DJ wholesaler in Oregon loved their reliability; they flew through all kinds of weather, weather that would have caused United to cancel or overfly us in Portland. We customers provided the ground crew.
> 
> He also recollects the outfit as being straight out of "Terry and the Pirates" - a comic strip and radio serial that a couple of people here may recall. The co-pilot wore a scarf and had a little black book with lots of women's phone numbers. The company's previous job was flying parts and supplies for a tin mine in Peru.


Challenging the weather along with Wild and crazy times.


----------



## railiner

I recall that airline strike in '66...I had just graduated basic training at Lackland AFB, San Antonio, and had three days travel time to reach tech school at Chanute AFB, Rantoul, Il. I had looked forward to flying commercially to O'Hare, and then spending a couple of days seeing Chicago before reporting to Chanute. The strike put the kabosh to that plan. They took us on buses to San Antonio, where they then put us aboard a chartered Modern Air Transport, DC-6B. Let me tell you, after the 707 on the way down to San Antonio, it was not very modern. Neither were the stewardesses, who appeared to be the grandmother's of the Braniff 'stews' we had on the way down....

We were not told anything, so assumed we were still going to Chicago. Uh, Uh... We started a slow descent with nothing but corn fields visible, and then came the tell-tale red and white checkerboard water towers. Yes...we landed right on Chanute Field, which at the time was in the process of being deactivated and used by nothing more than the base aero club. We were then sent over to the "PATS" (Personnel Awaiting Tech School) barracks, where we spent our supposed three travel days doing lots of 'dirty jobs' around the base...


----------



## Bob Dylan

railiner said:


> I recall that airline strike in '66...I had just graduated basic training at Lackland AFB, San Antonio, and had three days travel time to reach tech school at Chanute AFB, Rantoul, Il. I had looked forward to flying commercially to O'Hare, and then spending a couple of days seeing Chicago before reporting to Chanute. The strike put the kabosh to that plan. They took us on buses to San Antonio, where they then put us aboard a chartered Modern Air Transport, DC-6B. Let me tell you, after the 707 on the way down to San Antonio, it was not very modern. Neither were the stewardesses, who appeared to be the grandmother's of the Braniff 'stews' we had on the way down....
> 
> We were not told anything, so assumed we were still going to Chicago. Uh, Uh... We started a slow descent with nothing but corn fields visible, and then came the tell-tale red and white checkerboard water towers. Yes...we landed right on Chanute Field, which at the time was in the process of being deactivated and used by nothing more than the base aero club. We were then sent over to the "PATS" (Personnel Awaiting Tech School) barracks, where we spent our supposed three travel days doing lots of 'dirty jobs' around the base...


Sounds like typical Military SOP!!!


----------



## Night Ranger

railiner said:


> I recall that airline strike in '66...I had just graduated basic training at Lackland AFB, San Antonio, and had three days travel time to reach tech school at Chanute AFB, Rantoul, Il. I had looked forward to flying commercially to O'Hare, and then spending a couple of days seeing Chicago before reporting to Chanute. The strike put the kabosh to that plan. They took us on buses to San Antonio, where they then put us aboard a chartered Modern Air Transport, DC-6B. Let me tell you, after the 707 on the way down to San Antonio, it was not very modern. Neither were the stewardesses, who appeared to be the grandmother's of the Braniff 'stews' we had on the way down....
> 
> We were not told anything, so assumed we were still going to Chicago. Uh, Uh... We started a slow descent with nothing but corn fields visible, and then came the tell-tale red and white checkerboard water towers. Yes...we landed right on Chanute Field, which at the time was in the process of being deactivated and used by nothing more than the base aero club. We were then sent over to the "PATS" (Personnel Awaiting Tech School) barracks, where we spent our supposed three travel days doing lots of 'dirty jobs' around the base...


I have no happy memories of that 1966 strike, aeronautical or otherwise. I had just finished basic training at Fort Campbell, KY, and had orders to Fort Sam Houston, Texas. I was slated to fly for the very first time in my life and at government expense which was even better, when the orders were revoked due to the strike and I spent a miserable 3 days on a series of Greyhound buses instead. I was a day late reporting so I missed all of those "casual duty assignments" but had to explain several times to various military personnel who were dedicated to making the troops as miserable as possible why I was late.


----------



## HenryK

Back in the 80s (I think) my wife and I flew one of those PBA DC-3s from Miami to Marathon in the Keys one winter day. We were sitting in the very last seats in the tail, there was a bit of a crosswind, and we felt every one of those rudder inputs to keep us on the centerline. I loved it. A decade later I was a student pilot.


----------



## Asher

railiner said:


> I recall that airline strike in '66...I had just graduated basic training at Lackland AFB, San Antonio, and had three days travel time to reach tech school at Chanute AFB, Rantoul, Il. I had looked forward to flying commercially to O'Hare, and then spending a couple of days seeing Chicago before reporting to Chanute. The strike put the kabosh to that plan. They took us on buses to San Antonio, where they then put us aboard a chartered Modern Air Transport, DC-6B. Let me tell you, after the 707 on the way down to San Antonio, it was not very modern. Neither were the stewardesses, who appeared to be the grandmother's of the Braniff 'stews' we had on the way down....
> 
> We were not told anything, so assumed we were still going to Chicago. Uh, Uh... We started a slow descent with nothing but corn fields visible, and then came the tell-tale red and white checkerboard water towers. Yes...we landed right on Chanute Field, which at the time was in the process of being deactivated and used by nothing more than the base aero club. We were then sent over to the "PATS" (Personnel Awaiting Tech School) barracks, where we spent our supposed three travel days doing lots of 'dirty jobs' around the base...


I liked the DC6b it had a special partioned off area in the rear of the plane with club seating. Most major airlines were set up that way, the charter you flew on probably had a higher density seating plan though.


----------



## Palmland

Sometimes you get lucky. During the airline strike I was visiting my brother at an NAS base near Milton, FL. I had no advance reservation - just walked to the ticket window in Flomaton, AL and got a roomette on L&N’s Hummingbird to Cincinnati. The train was packed after we left Montgomery with many extra sleepers.

At Cincinnati I wanted to take B&O’s National Ltd but it was sold out and had to settle for C&O’s George Washington. At Washington the B&O was operating all trains separately to Detroit, Cleveland, and two sections to Chicago. Many of these had been combined by the summer of ‘66.

That was the last Hoorah for the Pullman Company and they were able to supply and staff all the extra sleepers. It was downhill from there to the end in ‘69.


----------



## railiner

That was the only time I recall several airlines striking at the same time...later on they seemed to be on an individual basis....


----------



## Willbridge

Night Ranger said:


> I have no happy memories of that 1966 strike, aeronautical or otherwise. I had just finished basic training at Fort Campbell, KY, and had orders to Fort Sam Houston, Texas. I was slated to fly for the very first time in my life and at government expense which was even better, when the orders were revoked due to the strike and I spent a miserable 3 days on a series of Greyhound buses instead. I was a day late reporting so I missed all of those "casual duty assignments" but had to explain several times to various military personnel who were dedicated to making the troops as miserable as possible why I was late.



Your experience is a good example of the downside of unplanned surges like major strikes, energy crises, wars, bridge failures, etc. When customers are forced onto something second rate their experience sticks with them as negative. In the same era, people were buying Greyhound Ameripasses and enjoying meandering trips and potential interesting stopovers because it was their choice.

During that 1966 strike I made a day round-trip from Spokane to Paradise. On the eastbound _Mainstreeter_ there was a shipment of Army helicopter trainees griping about the long trip ahead of them. They had Slumbercoach berths, were on time on a train with friendly service, including a diner-lounge, where they could drink once the train got into Montana. But the Army couldn't get space for them on the _North Coast Limited._

My project boss for a summer job was going with his daughter from Portland to Oklahoma City for a family wedding. They were only able to get space on the _Portland Rose_, not the _Domeliners City of Portland / City of St. Louis. _I heard about how unhappy they were several times before they left.


----------



## Asher

One of the things about small planes flying VFR, visual flight rules, see and be seen. Even in a place as big as Alaska two planes in the same spot is disaster. Happened again a couple of days ago with a Piper Super Cruiser and a de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver. Sad!


----------



## ehbowen

anumberone said:


> One of the things about small planes flying VFR, visual flight rules, see and be seen. Even in a place as big as Alaska two planes in the same spot is disaster. Happened again a couple of days ago with a Piper Super Cruiser and a de Havilland DHC-2 Beaver. Sad!


I got my wake-up call on one of my early lessons when a Twin Comanche crossed right in front of us, left to right, maybe 200 feet away. We were in Class B airspace and my instructor got on the horn with ATC and demanded, "What was that?" The controller replied, "Dunno, let me turn my radar up here." He had been watching transponder returns only and apparently the Comanche had been trying to sneak through the Class B north to south with his transponder off. I learned some new words that day....


----------



## Brian Battuello

As a retired CFII, I can imagine your response. Hope you had a new set of underwear in the car!


----------



## Bob Dylan

ehbowen said:


> I got my wake-up call on one of my early lessons when a Twin Comanche crossed right in front of us, left to right, maybe 200 feet away. We were in Class B airspace and my instructor got on the horn with ATC and demanded, "What was that?" The controller replied, "Dunno, let me turn my radar up here." He had been watching transponder returns only and apparently the Comanche had been trying to sneak through the Class B north to south with his transponder off. I learned some new words that day....


The first time I took my Family on a Weekend getaway trip in a Cessna 172, we were flying to San Antonio and landing @ San Antonio International.

I was flying V-IFR( Visual/ I Follow Roads) down I-35 when the Approach Controller advised we that T-38s were doing Touch and Go Landings @ Randolph AFB and would be crossing in front of us @ Low Altitude @ 300 Knots!

These planes are hard to spot in the air and with the Sun setting behind them it was even harder. After seeing several, I was given Landing Clearance for SAT.

I was given Clearance to Land and was on Final Approach to Landing when out of Nowhere a Braniff 727 come over the top of me out of the setting sun, and Landed on the runway I was cleared to Land on!

I immediately started a go around, called the Tower and the Controller was apologetic,saying that another Controller Cleared Braniff without telling him!( Military Planes and Airlines are on on different Frequencies)

He vectored me to another approach,and once again cleared me to Land, which was done with no problems.

As the CFII said above, I probably should have had some clean underwear after that one!

And it took awhile for my Wife and Daughter to fly with me again!


----------



## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> The first time I took my Family on a Weekend getaway trip in a Cessna 172, we were flying to San Antonio and landing @ San Antonio International.
> 
> I was flying V-IFR( Visual/ I Follow Roads) down I-35 when the Approach Controller advised we that T-38s were doing Touch and Go Landings @ Randolph AFB and would be crossing in front of us @ Low Altitude @ 300 Knots!
> 
> These planes are hard to spot in the air and with the Sun setting behind them it was even harder. After seeing several, I was given Landing Clearance for SAT.
> 
> I was given Clearance to Land and was on Final Approach to Landing when out of Nowhere a Braniff 727 come over the top of me out of the setting sun, and Landed on the runway I was cleared to Land on!
> 
> I immediately started a go around, called the Tower and the Controller was apologetic,saying that another Controller Cleared Braniff without telling him!( Military Planes and Airlines are on on different Frequencies)
> 
> He vectored me to another approach,and once again cleared me to Land, which was done with no problems.
> 
> As the CFII said above, I probably should have had some clean underwear after that one!
> 
> And it took awhile for my Wife and Daughter to fly with me again!


Yeah, I think I would be sitting Out a few after that also. Did they fly home with you, or did they do like my friend Gordon's wife did after a flight to Portland from Los Angeles in his small plane, she took the airline home.


----------



## Bob Dylan

anumberone said:


> Yeah, I think I would be sitting Out a few after that also. Did they fly home with you, or did they do like my friend Gordon's wife did after a flight to Portland from Los Angeles in his small plane, she took the airline home.


Actually I flew home for work, and since it was Summer, ( No School) they stayed with the family for a week, and I picked them up by car the next weekend.!

It was a couple of months before they flew with me again, but my daughter did grow to really like to fly! My wife never liked to fly, but did a few times!


----------



## VentureForth

Bob Dylan said:


> I was given Clearance to Land and was on Final Approach to Landing when out of Nowhere a Braniff 727 come over the top of me out of the setting sun, and Landed on the runway I was cleared to Land on!


Reminds me of the time I was flying into DFW. 

We were flying over the Dallas metro when we heard Approach tell a Southwest 737 "Traffic 12:00, Cherokee, 500' below". As Southwest responded, "looking", the big yellow, blue, and orange plane passed 500' right above us!

Then approach had the gall to forget us and vectored is way over Denton before bringing us back to DFW.

These stories encouraged me to go get my first medical in over a decade. Sadly my body ain't what it used to be, with diabetes and eyeglasses added to my list of oldness since my last check. But I should still get my second class after this short deferral.


----------



## ehbowen

VentureForth said:


> Reminds me of the time I was flying into DFW.
> 
> We were flying over the Dallas metro when we heard Approach tell a Southwest 737 "Traffic 12:00, Cherokee, 500' below". As Southwest responded, "looking", the big yellow, blue, and orange plane passed 500' right above us!
> 
> Then approach had the gall to forget us and vectored is way over Denton before bringing us back to DFW.
> 
> These stories encouraged me to go get my first medical in over a decade. Sadly my body ain't what it used to be, with diabetes and eyeglasses added to my list of oldness since my last check. But I should still get my second class after this short deferral.



Flying that Decathlon in and out of Hobby Airport...remember the time that Ground Control had me crossing directly behind a Northwest DC-9. Bob and Jon had told be to always be extremely cautious of jets with their exhaust high and to the rear. I was solo that day; no help in the back seat. Just as I was directly behind his tailpipes and ninety degrees crosswise I heard, "Northwest _____, Hobby Ground, cross runway 4, expedite!"

I grabbed the stick and hung on. Fortunately the Decathlon has good ground manners, for a taildragger, and there was enough separation that I just barely felt the jet blast. But there was some pucker factor for a second or two!


----------



## TWA904

When I was about 7 -8 years old, the town we lived in (Atmore, AL) began to develop its airport.When it opened it had a grass runway. I talked my parents into riding to it because they were giving free rides to anyone who wanted to go.My mother let me and my brother for a ride, but she was afraid I'd be afraid and crying. We flew around town and over our house on a flight for about 15 - 20 minutes and came back to land. When I got off the plane I did start to cry but it was because she wouldn't lets me go again. I've been hooked on airplanes every sense.


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## saxman

All this talk makes me want to get back into GA to do some real flying again. 

But in the jet, my favorite story is when I made the guy in his C-152 change his pants out. I was flying the CRJ into KRAP (Rapid City, SD). A 152 was doing pattern work there while we were in a straight in visual. Tower asked the 152 to extend his downwind to let us go in front and asked him if he had us (the CRJ) in sight. He affirmed that he had us in sight was to follow us in. A minute or so later our TCAS alert goes off. This sometimes happens when aircraft are on the ground, but nope! I see this dude making his base to final turn right in front us!! I'd guesstimate a mile or so in front. I tell my FO to GO AROUND, and we go sailing above his head. Nothing evasive, but a little exciting none the less. I inform the tower and he sends us in the pattern for a return. Meanwhile, the tower rips this guy to shreds. He was furious. You could hear the tremble in the guys voice trying to justify what he did and how he realized what he had just done. Turns out there was another CRJ on the ground taking off, and he thought he was suppose to follow the other CRJ...that was on the ground. Either way, tower apologized to us. I smiled and told him no big deal. He just got us another 20 minutes of pay for that.


----------



## Bob Dylan

saxman said:


> All this talk makes me want to get back into GA to do some real flying again.
> 
> But in the jet, my favorite story is when I made the guy in his C-152 change his pants out. I was flying the CRJ into KRAP (Rapid City, SD). A 152 was doing pattern work there while we were in a straight in visual. Tower asked the 152 to extend his downwind to let us go in front and asked him if he had us (the CRJ) in sight. He affirmed that he had us in sight was to follow us in. A minute or so later our TCAS alert goes off. This sometimes happens when aircraft are on the ground, but nope! I see this dude making his base to final turn right in front us!! I'd guesstimate a mile or so in front. I tell my FO to GO AROUND, and we go sailing above his head. Nothing evasive, but a little exciting none the less. I inform the tower and he sends us in the pattern for a return. Meanwhile, the tower rips this guy to shreds. He was furious. You could hear the tremble in the guys voice trying to justify what he did and how he realized what he had just done. Turns out there was another CRJ on the ground taking off, and he thought he was suppose to follow the other CRJ...that was on the ground. Either way, tower apologized to us. I smiled and told him no big deal. He just got us another 20 minutes of pay for that.


Good one Chris!
Much as we GA Pilots like to tell Flying Stories, Airline Pilots have many more to share!


----------



## basketmaker

HenryK said:


> Back in the 80s (I think) my wife and I flew one of those PBA DC-3s from Miami to Marathon in the Keys one winter day. We were sitting in the very last seats in the tail, there was a bit of a crosswind, and we felt every one of those rudder inputs to keep us on the centerline. I loved it. A decade later I was a student pilot.


Was with PBA for 5 years ('70-'75) in MIA.


----------



## PVD

Exvalley said:


> They are transitioning to Tencams. I didn’t get lucky, though.


Just read the Tecnams will be grounded for a "review" of sorts.....


----------



## Exvalley

PVD said:


> Just read the Tecnams will be grounded for a "review" of sorts.....


Oh no!


----------



## Asher

PVD said:


> Just read the Tecnams will be grounded for a "review" of sorts.....


What model?


----------



## PVD

The article referred specifically to Cape, it is their P2012 Travelers, as reported by "The Points Guy", that's where I saw it.


----------



## Asher

PVD said:


> The article referred specifically to Cape, it is their P2012 Travelers, as reported by "The Points Guy", that's where I saw it.


Nice looking, should be a good replament for the 402.


----------



## Hepcat66

railiner said:


> I recall that airline strike in '66...I had just graduated basic training at Lackland AFB, San Antonio, and had three days travel time to reach tech school at Chanute AFB, Rantoul, Il. I had looked forward to flying commercially to O'Hare, and then spending a couple of days seeing Chicago before reporting to Chanute. The strike put the kabosh to that plan. They took us on buses to San Antonio, where they then put us aboard a chartered Modern Air Transport, DC-6B. Let me tell you, after the 707 on the way down to San Antonio, it was not very modern. Neither were the stewardesses, who appeared to be the grandmother's of the Braniff 'stews' we had on the way down....
> 
> We were not told anything, so assumed we were still going to Chicago. Uh, Uh... We started a slow descent with nothing but corn fields visible, and then came the tell-tale red and white checkerboard water towers. Yes...we landed right on Chanute Field, which at the time was in the process of being deactivated and used by nothing more than the base aero club. We were then sent over to the "PATS" (Personnel Awaiting Tech School) barracks, where we spent our supposed three travel days doing lots of 'dirty jobs' around the base...


I also did basic at Lackland, in August/September of '62 and boy was it hot! Then they put us on a train to Denver (Lowry Field) for 10 months of tech school. And yes, I too was in PATS for a few days running a floor buffer. Then another train (BN) to Chicago for 30 days leave before Glasgow AFB, MT where no one went over the hill because there weren't any.


----------



## railiner

Hepcat66 said:


> I also did basic at Lackland, in August/September of '62 and boy was it hot! Then they put us on a train to Denver (Lowry Field) for 10 months of tech school. And yes, I too was in PATS for a few days running a floor buffer. Then another train (BN) to Chicago for 30 days leave before Glasgow AFB, MT where no one went over the hill because there weren't any.


I was at BMTS-Lackland from 20 June until 3 August of 1966....I agree it was hot! We wore 'pith' helmets and were pushed to take lots of salt tablets...
There were many "red flag" and a couple of "black flag" restricted PT days...


----------



## Asher

Not a small plane, but a FedEx cargo plane, I think 757 came into LAX night before last on a wing and a prayer so they say, one of the main gear wouldn't come down. Guess it dumped fuel over the ocean, made a couple of approaches and finally decided to land with one main and the nose gear extended. The pilot set it down smooth, it continued straight with just a shower of sparks, no fire. One of the two pilots was injured getting out of the plane.


----------



## PVD

I believe it was a 767


----------



## B757Guy

PVD said:


> I believe it was a 767



Yes, 767. I miss flying it terribly! I love the 777, but the 75/76 were such excellent flying airplanes.


----------



## PVD

I loved the 76, but seemed to have bad luck on them On my first 767 flight ( UA DEN-LGA) there was a rag stuffed in a space, that someone reached up and pulled out. I think it held back condensate water that wasn't draining and I got drenched. And on a red-eye leaving LAX (TW) there was a gear or gear door that wouldn't stow, and after trying some bouncing moves, we headed back over the Pacific to burn off fuel and return to LAX. They rolled out a sparkling practically new 757, which was great, except for listening to idiots whining about no longer having an aisle seat at 2 AM


----------



## Palmland

I loved the 767’s and I remember when Delta first put them to service. What a treat to have a new clean plane with plenty of seating not requiring dealing with someone in a center seat. The only downside was the early am departure from Jax for my regular flight.


----------



## HenryK

I flew (as a passenger) on 767s from Chicago to Reykjavik on Icelandair and hated it. Those coach seats were thin and uncomfortable, far worse than those in my 1959 C150.


----------



## PVD

Most of the interior is determined by the airline, comfort on the same plane can vary widely carrier to carrier or even version on the same carrier. Like an A-320 on JetBlue the 150 seat earlier, or the 150 seat with some rows adjusted for legroom, and the 162 seat ones. Or the domestic and international setups some carriers use.


----------



## railiner

"If you had a favorite airplane, this one's going to take its place"......

Anyone recall this ad.?


----------



## PVD

On an airline with decent seats and pitch 2-3-2 767 coach was very good


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Most of the interior is determined by the airline, comfort on the same plane can vary widely carrier to carrier or even version on the same carrier.


Very true. I can understand why a pilot would have a strong opinion about one aircraft over another but if you're a passenger then most of your experience will be determined by the airline and cabin fixtures. So far as I can tell the majority of improvements related to the 767 had little or nothing to do with the passenger experience. It seemed to be mostly about labor costs, fuel efficiency, and operational flexibility. No 767's served my home airport and few operated on the routes I flew so my experience was rather limited. I did enjoy more aisle seats and the relative rarity of a regional widebody jet but other than that it felt a lot like other aircraft from the same era. The 787 has a similar size and profile but seems a lot more popular and common than the 767.


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## PVD

There are quite a few years of progress built into the 787, larger windows, and improved cabin pressure and humidity levels help the passenger experience. The 2-3-2 coach in the 67 was very well received by passengers, as well as the extra set of overhead bins. You don't see many 787 in domestic service, the earlier 767-200 were not uncommon with major carriers. Many of those are gone, if you see a 67 today it likely a version of the larger 300 series, and probably not flying domestic.


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## Devil's Advocate

The 787 isn't a bad passenger aircraft but the 767 still beats it with better seat width and pitch. 767's also have passenger controlled window shades that can block out all of the light instead of creating that distracting blue haze you get on 787's. I hope the A350 did not borrow the B787's window shades.


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## PVD

The electronic shade is supposed to be progress, but lots of passengers don't like them, since they find them not really 100% effective. Seat pitch and width varies by airline and assignment group, the aircraft itself is not the predictor. I always use a sight like seatguru to see what I'm in for


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## MARC Rider

Hmmm... This thread is called "Small Plane Discussion," and the last few pages are about Boeing 767s and 787s. I hate to think of the size of the planes described in the thread "Large Plane Discussion." But maybe everyone will use that thread to debate the relative merits of Beechcraft vs. Piper aircraft.


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## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> The electronic shade is supposed to be progress, but lots of passengers don't like them, since they find them not really 100% effective. Seat pitch and width varies by airline and assignment group, the aircraft itself is not the predictor. I always use a sight like seatguru to see what I'm in for


You're quite right. If we still had a lot of 767's flying around today they would almost certainly be converted to 787 levels of width and pitch, but in my mind's eye the 767 will forever have the pitch and width of my last 767 flight.


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## Asher

Since we're looking out the window, I'll include a photo showing what it looks like looking out the front window. The window shot is over Connecticut with not much to see. After waiting three days for weather we finally got out of Providence IFR heading for Lancaster California with a stop over in Newcastle Indiana for the night at my in-laws. Cherokee 6 parked next to a cornfield at Newcastle. On to California the next day arriving about 1:00 am. I was just along for the ride.


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## gswager

Nice flying without using mask unless your pilot insist! What's the range for a tank of fuel?


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## Asher

gswager said:


> Nice flying without using mask unless your pilot insist! What's the range for a tank of fuel?


I think the fuel range is about 900 miles @ 65% power. We flew the plane back to California for a friend that just bought it used. Decent plane, looked terrible, really dirty, bad paint. We fueled at Newcastle Pennsylvania, Newcastle Indiana, someplace in Missouri, Dalhart Texas, Albuquerque NM and Bulkhead City Arizona.


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## B757Guy

MARC Rider said:


> Hmmm... This thread is called "Small Plane Discussion," and the last few pages are about Boeing 767s and 787s. I hate to think of the size of the planes described in the thread "Large Plane Discussion." But maybe everyone will use that thread to debate the relative merits of Beechcraft vs. Piper aircraft.



That's easy, it's Beechcraft, hands down! I have been in love with my Bonanza A36 since the day I bought her. Several panel upgrades, tip tanks, and new interior later, I'm still thrilled and lucky to fly her.


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## Willbridge

I have experienced a limited variety of small planes but my first experience was with Beavers over East Germany and East Berlin. I have the story in my website, along with a story about flying in BEA's BAC-111 and Super 111. The BAC-111 was either a small big plane or a large small plane. Rather than typing out the stories here, I'll post the link.

Air Corridor Pawns

The attached photo is a Beaver-eye view of the isolated Velten S-Bahn Betriebshof which is now a Stadler facility.


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## PVD

I would say more in the large plane category, since some airlines used them as mainline. I had one BUF-LGA on Agony I think (alleghany)


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## railiner

Loved the 1-11’s....really got to know them with my Mohawk “Weekend Unlimited” travel pass


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