# Virgin to operate Florida HSR



## battalion51 (Apr 28, 2004)

This story is from the Miami Herald. Free registration is required.

I personally think that's another step in the right direction for HSR now that there is an experienced travel group like Virgin operating the system. It seems to me no matter how much politicians want to kill this thing it will only get stronger as time goes on. Now the only question for me is if I'd be better off hiring out with Virgin or Slamtrak. :lol:


----------



## engine999 (Apr 28, 2004)

battalion51 said:


> This story is from the Miami Herald. Free registration is required.
> I personally think that's another step in the right direction for HSR now that there is an experienced travel group like Virgin operating the system. It seems to me no matter how much politicians want to kill this thing it will only get stronger as time goes on. Now the only question for me is if I'd be better off hiring out with Virgin or Slamtrak. :lol:


The way things tend to be run down here the highest bidder that promesses to offer the worst service will win. :lol:


----------



## battalion51 (Apr 28, 2004)

I personally have confidence in Virgin. Since they run transportation systems elsewhere, including rail, an airline, and a blimp company they probably have some clue what they're doing. Also, Virgin diversifies itself in other markets like Records and Cell Phone.


----------



## engine999 (Apr 28, 2004)

battalion51 said:


> I personally have confidence in Virgin. Since they run transportation systems elsewhere, including rail, an airline, and a blimp company they probably have some clue what they're doing. Also, Virgin diversifies itself in other markets like Records and Cell Phone.


Good Point, I think if Virgin or any other Sub Contracter were given X amount of dollars for a fixed time then the system could be profitable. However if the state intervenes or runs the service its self, then the system will fail to be profitable. It will be another program that money can be taken out of to add another lane to I-4.


----------



## Pudduh - British Rail user. (May 4, 2004)

Hey just wanted to make a comment. I'm a Brit and the UK has one of the most extensive and most used Rail systems in the world (One Billion Passengers from 2003-2004 alone!).

Basically the three biggest routes are the London to Scotland West Coast mainline (just get a map and trace your finger up the west coast of Britain and thats where it goes), the Cross country network (series of lines linking places in the North West of England and the Middle of England - find Birmingham in the UK and that is its hub) and the East Coast Main line to Scotland (again follow your finger up the east coast of the UK).

Virgin trains run the WCML and Crosscountry. Basically what they have done is bring in a brand new fleet of high speed trains which go at a maximum of 125mph and can tilt, their staff are attentive, understanding and have a can do nature.

The problem is that (quite frankly) they've screwed it up. Allow me to explain.

The train fleet that they had inherited were Deisel powered Class 43 (Intercity 125) sets with up to eight passenger carridges and also sets of eight passenger carridges pulled by several quite modern electric locomotives. They could carry quite alot of passengers in one go and were reasonably fast and reliable (125mph max).

However Virgin's...well virgin managers who were flown in reasoned that they could do away with the larger, longer trains and bring in a far bigger fleet of smaller, 4 car trains (called Voyagers but are designated Class 220 and 221) supplemented with longer but fewer 'Pendolino' Tilting trains which would do the main runs to Manchester and Scotland.

The idea was that if you had many, more frequent trains then you could handle the same passenger load that would be typical of a service operating a smaller number of longer trains. The idea was that if the seats on the first train was full then you could wait five minutes for the next train.

However it simply doesen't work like that and Virgin's "Operation PRincess" was a fiasco.

Basically everyone tried to pack onto the first available train, making it look more like the Tokyo Underground. If there wern't any seats left then people would simply stand. This made conditions unbearable and thus crap.

Also to compound the problem the authority who controls who runs what where on Britain's Railways (the Strateigic Rail Authority) said that Virgin had to stick to its plan and could not legnthen the trains.

So now all those who travel on the WCML and the Cross country network have had to suffer these nice, new but verrry cramped trains.

Currently the WCML is receiving an upgrade which will enable the trains to properly do 125mph all the way to Scotland from London so maybe in the beginning of 2005 we will see some major improvements in the service, but do not hold you breath.

Who knows? Virgin might do better in America...but don't hold your breath.


----------



## Guest_raykirk_747 (May 6, 2004)

Pudduh - British Rail user. said:


> Hey just wanted to make a comment. I'm a Brit and the UK has one of the most extensive and most used Rail systems in the world (One Billion Passengers from 2003-2004 alone!).
> Basically the three biggest routes are the London to Scotland West Coast mainline (just get a map and trace your finger up the west coast of Britain and thats where it goes), the Cross country network (series of lines linking places in the North West of England and the Middle of England - find Birmingham in the UK and that is its hub) and the East Coast Main line to Scotland (again follow your finger up the east coast of the UK).
> 
> Virgin trains run the WCML and Crosscountry. Basically what they have done is bring in a brand new fleet of high speed trains which go at a maximum of 125mph and can tilt, their staff are attentive, understanding and have a can do nature.
> ...





> he he he that right virgin group need cost for runing Trains Service all over the USA????????? :lol:   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:   :huh:


----------



## Pudduh (Jun 20, 2004)

.....and what exactly did "he he he that right virgin group need cost for runing Trains Service all over the USA?????????" actually mean? h34r:


----------



## Miami Joe (Jun 20, 2004)

I find it interesting that a firm has been picked to operate the system.

Yet no firm has been picked to construct the line, nor has a price been given for this "pig."

How much you wanna bet, that the taxpayers will have to hold the bonds and eat dirt when the system can't pay for itself. <_<

What started out as a proposal(Fox train) from a firm who was going to finance the project, has turned into a project that is being forced upon the taxpayer without a price! :blink: That's smells "real bad!" :angry:

Don't be surprised, if you see Virgin sign a contract and end up getting paid alot of money without lifting a finger. :huh: The system will be stalled in court and Virgin will sue for "breach of contract."

Now, thats big business!! 

Miami Joe


----------



## engine999 (Jun 21, 2004)

Fox wasnt the only initiative that went under. Multiple programs have been started and then closed for lack of funding in the private sector.


----------



## battalion51 (Jun 21, 2004)

Miami Joe said:


> Yet no firm has been picked to construct the line, nor has a price been given for this "pig."


Actually Joe Bombardier/Fluor was picked to design and construct the system. What they're looking at now is a Double Track route with electric locomotives. There was a price given for the project as well, but I don't remember the amount at this point in time.


----------



## Miami Joe (Jun 21, 2004)

The only price I remember was over 10 years ago.

The point is "Would you buy something so large without a pricetag?"

It just smells like another Miami MetroRail and alot of people got rich on that deal! <_<

Miami Joe


----------



## battalion51 (Jun 21, 2004)

I think as long as they make a connection to CSX tracks in Tampa, Lakeland/Auburndale, and Orlando it'll get used as Amtrak would likely use it for its long distance service. Think about it, if Metrorail were made so Tri-Rail could run straight on to its line we'd probably have a true Commuter system right now that spans all three counties.


----------



## Miami Joe (Jun 21, 2004)

I think with Tri-Rail sueing FEC in state court for the rights to run on FEC track, this is an indicator that the state intends to get into the train business in the next few years.

If that happens, Amtrak would probably pull out Florida and offer service out of JAX.

Auto train would continue on CSX rail.

Miami Joe


----------



## battalion51 (Jun 21, 2004)

> If that happens, Amtrak would probably pull out Florida and offer service out of JAX.


Do what now? If you're suggesting Amtrak'll only operate out of JAX I find that hard to believe, as they would lose a lot of their customers going to Orlando, Tampa, SoFLA, etc. It's possible they might move the Meteor over to the FEC, but you still should have at least one MIA-ORL-JAX train and MIA-TPA-JAX train daily. Now if they wanted to explore a MIA-TPA-ORL-JAX in addition to MIA-TPA-JAX, I'd welcome that, but I think killing service on all CSX tracks is not a wise move. Remember part of the reason the state bought the South Florida Corridor is so CSX wouldn't abandon the Auburndale Sub. Since Amtrak's the primary customer there I would think CSX would again push to abandon there leaving lots of businesses hanging out to dry.


----------



## engine999 (Jun 22, 2004)

Is there any bypass around the aburndale sub. If csx were to abandon it, it wouldn't it cut them off of acess to south fl.


----------



## battalion51 (Jun 22, 2004)

The only other route to South Florida is via FEC. But the businesses I'm talking about are both the local businesses that line the Auburndale Sub, and a large number of the rock quarries down here. Currently a large part of the CSX traffic down here is rock trains going from South Miami to Central Florida. If they lose the Auburndale they would have to route all traffic through Jacksonville, which is a major addition to time en route. Also, the Indiantown Cogeneration Power Plant (which is coal fired) would be cut off, most likely forcing it to change to another fuel source or shut down. There are some pretty signficant effects if that Sub is closed.


----------



## engine999 (Jun 22, 2004)

Seems Like it would cost csx more if it had to reroute its trains via fec instead of maintianing the aburndale sub. I don't ride on it very often, but I do know Fec only has so much extra capacity. Currently fec is operating atleast 20 trains on its system aday, which is mainly single track main. I belive the figure for the max amount of trains on a single track main is somewhere close to 27 trains aday. It would be a major lost if aburndale was lost.


----------



## engine999 (Jun 22, 2004)

Thinking about it, if csx were to abandon it, would they possibly leave the southern portion and then connect to fec by jupiter or Fort Pierce(I think thats where the connection line is that gives fec access to SCFE).


----------



## Miami Joe (Jun 22, 2004)

Let's look at a different view. <_<

If the federal government and Florida back the project financially, you will have an interstate train. An interstate railroad has less stringent operations guidelines and less government control. That means cheaper maintenance and lower operating costs.

CSX owns it's tracks and is not going to give them up without a lengthy legal battle. The state will probably utilize CSX and FEC tracks like Amtrak, to maximize ridership.

The point is, why run Amtrak to Miami when 2 different routes are provided by the state? That's money in the bank for Amtrak!

If they have loco problems, they have Sanford. Sanford is also turning the "Sunset Limited." The biggest problem there is a lack of space, but there is a yard across the street.

Remember, Herzog is non-union! :angry:

Miami Joe B)


----------

