# New York City subway will replace MetroCard with Apple Pay



## CHamilton (Oct 23, 2017)

New York City subway will replace MetroCard with Apple Pay tap-to-pay starting in 2018

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/10/23/new-york-city-subway-will-replace-metrocard-with-apple-pay-tap-to-pay-starting-in-2018


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## Ryan (Oct 23, 2017)

“In the interim, The MTA will begin phasing in the new NFC payment terminals at 500 subway turnstiles and 600 buses by late 2018. The more than half-billion-dollar contract calls for all subway stations and buses to have support for Apple Pay by late 2020.”

We’re going to need to delay The Gathering.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 23, 2017)

I like the idea of bypassing the parked funds requirement, but I also wonder how much fares will need to increase in order to cover yet another financial services middleman.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2017)

Looks like NY MTA is going in a direction similar to Portland OR did.

Now if they could get automatic capping with a Day Pass rate like Portland ....


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## Dave Van (Oct 23, 2017)

So your phone does not with Applepay????


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## trainman74 (Oct 23, 2017)

Aw, no more "SWIPE AGAIN HERE"?

Chicago has already had this type of payment for a couple of years, so it's nice to see the Big Apple getting on board with it.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2017)

Dave Van said:


> So your phone does not with Applepay????


??

You use your iPhone to pay using ApplePay. I have done so both in Portland (instead of a HOP Card) and in Chicago (instead of a Ventra Card). Works just fine. In Chicago you cannot get some discounts with ApplePay that you can with Ventra. Similarly, in Portland all of the discounts available through the HOP Card or Paper tickets are not available when using ApplePay. Only some are. And of course in Portland the Android Wallet, or whatever they call it, works too.


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## jebr (Oct 23, 2017)

The article doesn't mention it, so I wanted to check: are they also making sure to include some sort of "agency contactless card" for those who don't have contactless payment methods or wish not to use them? Frankly, I find it much easier to have a "local" fare card for the most part and not have to rely on my phone working properly (especially with NFC payment, which has been an exercise in frustration whenever I've used it on Android.) There's also plenty of people with budget phones (or no smartphone at all) that would need some sort of way to use the transit system.

I'm guessing there is, but it seems odd to not mention that in the article.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2017)

I believe almost any NFC Credit or Debit Card will work in the system. at least in principle. But I could be wrong of course. Given that the basic mechanism and hardware needed is more or less the same, it is just a matter of setting up the configuration and software modules right.

Rightfully, a transit agency should not really need to have their own card, if they can help it. Basically the approach that Chicago took is to designate a specific Mastercard Debit Card as their card and set up and edifice around it. In principle New York could do the same, but using a technique that involves a lower involvement of MTA on the card management side of things I think.

London for example, has had the Oyster Card for voer a decade. But they are trying to start providing the same facility using any NFC Card or equivalent that is available to their customers.


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## me_little_me (Oct 23, 2017)

jebr said:


> The article doesn't mention it, so I wanted to check: are they also making sure to include some sort of "agency contactless card" for those who don't have contactless payment methods or wish not to use them? Frankly, I find it much easier to have a "local" fare card for the most part and not have to rely on my phone working properly (especially with NFC payment, which has been an exercise in frustration whenever I've used it on Android.) There's also plenty of people with budget phones (or no smartphone at all) that would need some sort of way to use the transit system.
> 
> I'm guessing there is, but it seems odd to not mention that in the article.


Keeps the lower classes off the upscale subway and bus transportation system. If you have to rub shoulders with someone, it should be with one who could afford the latest iphone without batting an eye. That limits it to teenagers, politicians and business execs.

Then again, the city might provide free 24K gold iphones that give the poor a feeling of equality: https://www.goldgenie.com/gold-iphone-7


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## me_little_me (Oct 23, 2017)

"MetroCards wont be phased out until 2023, 30 years after their initial introduction. Instead of a MetroCard, users will be able to simply wave their smartphone in front of the payment reader. Specific details are somewhat unclear at this stage, but the readers will support NFC technologies like Apple Pay, Android Pay, and Samsung Pay. There will also be contactless cards – which are cards with an NFC chip embedded inside. That option removes the need for a smartphone or Apple Watch."

https://9to5mac.com/2017/10/23/new-york-transit-apple-pay/


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## Dave Van (Oct 23, 2017)

jis said:


> Dave Van said:
> 
> 
> > So your phone does not with Applepay????
> ...


Believe it or not.....iphones are* NOT *100% of the market. Coming from a IT background going back to 1975 I will not own or even permit Apple products in my house.......I know iphone users think there are no other phones.....but there are.others......

So.....again, I am SOL???


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## SarahZ (Oct 24, 2017)

Dave Van said:


> Believe it or not.....iphones are* NOT *100% of the market. Coming from a IT background going back to 1975 I will not own or even permit Apple products in my house.......I know iphone users think there are no other phones.....but there are.others......
> 
> So.....again, I am SOL???


Did you happen to read me_little_me's comment? It's directly above your response.


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## jis (Oct 24, 2017)

And furthermore as I explained, it is not just iPhones. It is almost any NFC device that has a deal with a payment clearing house. It is just that the NFC device I happen to use is an iPhone.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Ryan (Oct 24, 2017)

So much irrationality and so little reading comprehension.

Contrary to your belief, us iPhone do actually know that other phones exist.


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## NorthShore (Oct 24, 2017)

Beggar at the subway station in 2024:

"My phone battery is dead. Would you pay my fare with your iPhone?"


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## jis (Oct 24, 2017)

NorthShore said:


> Beggar at the subway station in 2024:
> 
> "My phone battery is dead. Would you pay my fare with your iPhone?"


In reality, just like now, they will be picking up discarded limited use prepaid cards hoping that there is enough left on them for one ride






Delhi Metro has these neat little plastic coin like things with an embedded RFID, which can be purchased for a single ride. You put them in a slot like a token. That is what many people who do not have NFC devices or cards, use for paying fares. If people being unable to obtain and keep an NFC smart card like Ventra is a problem, there are other known solutions.

What is uniquely different in the smart card based systems though are the convenience features like seamless transfers, automatic maxing out for a day and limiting charges to the day pass amount, even when travel spans multiple fare zones and fares are time and distance based (e.g. London's Oyster Card system) etc. which were simply not doable with previous technologies.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Dave Van (Oct 24, 2017)

There is a huge population that assume 'iphone' is like 'Jell-o'.....a wireless device is a iphone......work with the public for a while and see for yourself.

I still do not see the bias toward iphone weather it's today or in 10 years. Chances are in 10 years they may be unknown to the general public....things change that fast. Blockbuster went from zero to 10K stores to 11 stores is less than 15 years....it can happen to anyone.


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## jebr (Oct 24, 2017)

The NFC technology (or the ability to use Apple Pay/Android Pay) is almost certainly the best way forward. We've had NFC fare cards here in MSP for about 10 years now, although since it was built to be somewhat asynchronous (the buses don't talk back to the server until they go into the garage for the night) the only method is to use the agency's farecard (which is free.) Cash is still accepted on buses and ticket machines, though.

My only concern is that NYC needs something to sell to people who are unbanked and/or don't have a contactless card. There's a lot of people, especially when you look at the transit system world, that don't have bank accounts and operate on a mainly cash basis. There's also plenty of people who are banked but don't have any sort of contactless card (most budget phones don't have NFC built in, and most banks in the US currently don't issue contactless cards.) There certainly are solutions to use, but the agency needs to be proactive in making those solutions instead of reactive when they realize there's a lot of people that can't use contactless without an agency solution.


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## jis (Oct 24, 2017)

In case anyone had difficulty believing or understanding the stuff that I have been trying to explain.... including all that claim to be IT experts





https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/nyregion/metrocard-subway-new-york.html?_r=0

And jebr, NYC will have a designated NFC Card that will be vended by the MTA under a name yet to be determined, sort of like London has the Oyster Cards and Chicago has the Ventra Cards. So your concern is already being addressed. Afterall the guys who manage the Oyster system are the ones who have been chosen to deploy the system in New York.


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## Green Maned Lion (Oct 24, 2017)

I wonder how someone who survives in IT fails reading comprehension?


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## jebr (Oct 24, 2017)

jis said:


> And jebr, NYC will have a designated NFC Card that will be vended by the MTA under a name yet to be determined, sort of like London has the Oyster Cards and Chicago has the Ventra Cards. So your concern is already being addressed. Afterall the guys who manage the Oyster system are the ones who have been chosen to deploy the system in New York.


Good to hear. I assumed that was probably the case, but I hate to assume. (I do see now that it was mentioned in passing in the 9to5 Mac article, though I probably didn't make the connection that the contactless cards were also through the MTA and not just bank contactless cards. The NY Times article helped as well; thanks.)

But yeah, NFC is an open technology that can be used with all sorts of devices, not just the iPhone. I certainly get annoyed by Apple when it tries to use proprietary technology, but on the wireless front they've seemed to do well in adopting open standards (NFC for payments and Qi for charging.)


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 24, 2017)

Dave Van said:


> Coming from a IT background going back to 1975 *I will not own** or even permit **Apple products in my house*.......I know iphone users think there are no other phones.....but there are.others......So.....again, I am SOL???


Interesting admission. So do you pat visitors down and remove any Apple contraband before they can enter your house? Or do you simply kick them off your lawn and down the street? You say you come from an IT background but your post sounds more like an emotional reaction to broad social trends.



Dave Van said:


> There is a huge population that assume 'iphone' is like 'Jell-o'.....a wireless device is a iphone......work with the public for a while and see for yourself.


There is an even bigger population that uses Android instead of Apple. Many of those users seem to equate smart devices with Google. Each group is large enough to ensure they'll both be supported. Not sure where you're going with this other than you seem to have some sort of aversion to Apple products/users.



Dave Van said:


> I still do not see the bias toward iphone weather it's today or in 10 years. Chances are in 10 years they may be unknown to the general public....things change that fast. Blockbuster went from zero to 10K stores to 11 stores is less than 15 years....it can happen to anyone.


Blockbuster was disliked by many but it didn't simply die on its own. The fundamental concept on which it was based (temporary rental of physical media) was undermined and eventually strangled to death by changes in the marketplace. Changes that were accelerated by an explosion of online media content. Pioneered by products such as iTunes. Released by Apple. No company is immune to bad management or severe market changes, but it's hard to imagine a scenario where smart phones/tablets/watches simply vanish from public consciousness over the next few years in the same way rental DVD's did a few years ago.


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## jis (Oct 24, 2017)

Other than the possibility that Smartphones may evolve to look more and more like Star Trek Tricorders, I don't really see them going away in a decade. As DA correctly states Blockbuster's business model was undermined my technical advances and they were unable or unwilling to adapt to changes. Of course that could happen to anyone. But it would be a huge surprise if that anyone includes Apple or Google or Microsoft for that matter, in the coming decade.

Frankly, I don't understand the technical basis for the hostility towards Apple. Seems an emotional rather than a technical response.



jebr said:


> But yeah, NFC is an open technology that can be used with all sorts of devices, not just the iPhone. I certainly get annoyed by Apple when it tries to use proprietary technology, but on the wireless front they've seemed to do well in adopting open standards (NFC for payments and Qi for charging.)


I am glad Apple chose Qi, since I have been using Qi with my iPhone 6+ using a Qi Case. At least all those Qi pads lying around at various places in my house and the Qi pad in my car will all continue to be useful.





But all this is getting a bit off topic.

Meanwhile as expected, a press release has come out of the Android camp on the subject too...

https://www.androidcentral.com/android-pay-coming-nyc-subways-2020


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## NorthShore (Oct 24, 2017)

jis said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> > Beggar at the subway station in 2024:
> ...


Oh, you obviously need to spend more time in Chicago, where it is quite common for people to just boldly ask other riders to pass them through the turnstile.

"My battery died" will, surely, both become a new excuse to ask by beggars, as well as a reality among those who can't exist without their phones.



> Delhi Metro has these neat little plastic coin like things with an embedded RFID, which can be purchased for a single ride. You put them in a slot like a token. That is what many people who do not have NFC devices or cards, use for paying fares. If people being unable to obtain and keep an NFC smart card like Ventra is a problem, there are other known solutions.


That makes a lot of sense, and actually can help with social service groups, for instance, which like to have the ability to offer low income clients car fare.



> What is uniquely different in the smart card based systems though are the convenience features like seamless transfers, automatic maxing out for a day and limiting charges to the day pass amount, even when travel spans multiple fare zones and fares are time and distance based (e.g. London's Oyster Card system) etc. which were simply not doable with previous technology


This presumes that the transit system wants to allow transfers, day limits, etc.


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## jis (Oct 24, 2017)

All the systems that I have had the pleasure of using smart NFC cards at seem to provide these facilities. Of course we all know New York can be rather exceptional






A more relevant question is will the MTA system interoperate with the systems adopted by adjacent transit organizations?

As far as I can tell there should be no problem interoperating with the NFC based system that has been adopted by PATH. In the past PATH has stated that it is one of their goals to interoperate with the MTA system.

As for NJT, we don't yet know exactly what system, if any, they intend to evolve to.

A bigger issue IMHO is rationalization of fares and fare zones in the NY area, which is an incoherent mess right now, and given the dysfunction of governance of everything in the New York area, it seems highly unlikely that anything will change in that area in the foreseeable future.


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## NorthShore (Nov 4, 2017)

jis said:


> All the systems that I have had the pleasure of using smart NFC cards at seem to provide these facilities. Of course we all know New York can be rather exceptional


Again, not CTA.
A flaw which those in the know (though not the average rider who neither knows any better nor understands systems with more reasonable policies worldwide) critique periodically, usually to dismissive, deaf ears.


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## jebr (Nov 4, 2017)

MSP's Metro Transit is also the same way on the day pass thing - the card will not max out at the day pass limit, and so if you know you're going to be doing a lot of traveling in a day and can buy a day pass you're better off doing so.

I sort of forgave this limitation in the era of a more expensive day pass (albeit a 24-hour pass) and the 10% additional fare load with stored value, but with the removal of that benefit and the introduction of a "day pass" (that expires at 2 AM the next day) that is simply 2x a one-way fare, it's a little bit of a pain point.

Of course, Metro Transit is also somewhat unique in that there's no real penalty for paying cash (you'll still get a paper transfer that expires in 2.5 hours, just like with the Go-To Card,) so the seamless transfer benefit is there with either cash or card. (The only one that becomes a bit problematic is if you're doing local to express/Northstar, but I think you can buy up to those as needed at the TVMs or on the bus.)


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## jis (Nov 4, 2017)

Most American transit systems are thoroughly borked. When it is a smartcard based system why should anyone have to buy anything special? They should just have to tap away and the system should automatically collect from them the lowest legal fare, and that should be it. Learn from Oyster instead of inventing each ones own Rube Goldberg schemes.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Green Maned Lion (Nov 4, 2017)

You know better.


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## jebr (Nov 6, 2017)

jis said:


> Most American transit systems are thoroughly borked. When it is a smartcard based system why should anyone have to buy anything special? They should just have to tap away and the system should automatically collect from them the lowest legal fare, and that should be it. Learn from Oyster instead of inventing each ones own Rube Goldberg schemes.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Since I've already expressed my frustration with the system in MSP, I'll also offer a potential counterargument as to why it isn't happening in MSP.

The MSP system, according to Wikipedia, was contracted out for a desired contactless launch in 2003. While delays made it so full public launch wasn't until 2007, any design in 2003 would likely find any sort of real-time updating for buses cost-prohibitive. As far as I can tell, the system is set up in such a way so that the buses are essentially "off-line" until they get into the garage at the end of their routes; thus, any data has to be stored either on the card itself or on some sort of data source on the bus itself. For the most part, the cards become the "storage medium" for fare data, with the buses simply storing transactions, updating the card in real time, and updating the server at the end of the day (and getting any fare updates to load onto cards.) With extremely limited storage on the card itself and with five different pass structures at launch time (24-hour pass, 7-day pass, 31-day pass for local non-rush hour, 31-day pass for local rush-hour and express non-rush, and 31 day pass for express rush-hour) it was likely considered technically unfeasible.

That base system, as far as I can tell, is still used today. The readers have all been updated to what appears to be the same style as CTA's since the original readers hit end-of-life, though there are many people who still have older cards and I doubt they rebuilt the underlying system to update in real-time (as far as I can tell they still update only once they get back to the garage, despite most buses having a data link now to provide wi-fi to passengers!) I don't know what it would take to rebuild that system, but hopefully whenever that day comes they'll put in a system that allows automatic pass generation once certain fare points are hit. With real-time connection to a main server that can easily store transactions and do those calculations it shouldn't be too difficult to implement that if the will is there.

Which reminds me, I really should file a formal suggestion/complaint on their website regarding this...


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## neroden (Dec 4, 2017)

Oyster is essentially implemented correctly. Unfortunately, most US implementations have been deficient in one way or another compared to Oyster. Here's hoping NYC follows *best practices* rather than, say, Seattle's *worst practices*.


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