# New Thruway from DET-Windsor



## Seaboard92 (Sep 28, 2016)

Here is a simple and really low cost option for a service increase. Run a thruway to connect Wolverine service 355 from VIA 73. And for going to Toronto connect Wolverine train No. 350 to VIA No. 78. Which whole not convenient as a direct train would allow for Chicago to Toronto.

Thruway services are fairly cheep to start up which helps the service. And with it being a new service probably could start with a van for the first year or two unless ridership is high enough to warrant a motor coach. But I would say once we reach the point of needing a motor coach the market would have proved itself for needing a direct rail connection.

The actual driving distance from the two stations is 5.9 miles. Google claims right now it takes 44 minutes to drive to Canada and roughly the same to drive back. The connection would be doable. Of course marketing it would help as well.

I have heard that's how Roanoke was able to acquire it's new yet to start service. Was that the thruway bus to and from Roanoke Valley was averaging 50 passengers a day going to the NER Lynchburger.

What do you guys think of this simple solution to link two world class cities together once again.


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## railiner (Sep 28, 2016)

I think it's a good idea...but....not being able to look up the connecting time easily on my phone, I would caution that you would probably need at least an hour and a half...perhaps more, for a large coach with baggage to clear customs and immigration...


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## Seaboard92 (Sep 28, 2016)

The connection time is about two hours in both directions. So it's not horribly long.


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## fairviewroad (Oct 3, 2016)

A couple of points:

1. 350 is a Sunday-only train. The other six days a week, the eastbound connection could not be made under the current train schedules. Obviously one could fix this by running 350 7x a week at the expense of another eastbound departure. But then we've gone well past the realm of "simple solution" into a major re-working of the Wolverine corridor. And a one-day per week connection isn't worth the effort, IMO.

2. You are proposing a three-seat ride between Chicago and Toronto. That's a tough sell considering the two cities are 90 minutes apart by air with more than a dozen non-stop flights per day.

3. It is already possible to book a Chicago-Toronto ticket via Amtrak. The Thruway connection is operated by Greyhound and you make the connection in Dearborn. This does not connect at all to VIA rail...you simply ride the bus all the way to Toronto from Dearborn. While not perfect, it does somewhat meet the criteria of adding Thruway service first to gauge demand. A chief complication is the "book-with-train" requirement that makes it difficult for Detroit-area Amtrak passengers to use the service. Also, it's an overnight bus ride eastbound.


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## jebr (Oct 3, 2016)

The only reason 350 is Sunday-only right now is due to track work. Looking back 350 is typically a daily train, and it's extremely likely it'll revert back to that once track work in Michigan is completed.

I do think that there's a market for this type of service, and it's very different from what's currently provided by Amtrak. The current connection require a 5 hour layover and sleeping on the bus through the night, which is not appealing to many people. An option to have a one-day trip mainly via train is a lot more attractive for many people who do not want to sleep in a coach seat or sleep on a bus. A 1.5 hour bus ride, most of it being spent outside at security, is also a lot lower barrier for those who prefer trains to buses to accept - it's much more of an Emeryville - San Francisco style situation than a "take a Greyhound bus for most of your journey" situation. I think, once the trackwork is done, it'd be a worthwhile endeaver for Amtrak and VIA to work on.


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## fairviewroad (Oct 3, 2016)

I'll grant you the point on 350. I was not aware of that and was simply looking at current schedules.

I do think that marrying an Amtrak departure to a VIA arrival (and vice-versa) is potentially problematic. Will VIA wait in Windsor for late-arriving Amtrak passengers? Will Amtrak wait in Detroit for late-arriving VIA passengers?

If the answer is "yes" then you risk alienating the core traffic which would be corridor riders on either side ("Well folks, our train is not going to depart on time today because another train operated by a different agency in a different country is running late".)

If the answer is "no" then you have grumpy mis-connects who need to be accommodated with either a hotel room or late-night bus ride.

And what if the mis-connect is not caused by a late train but rather by an unexpectedly lengthy border crossing?

None of those logistical problems are insurmountable, but I think it's far more complicated than simply running a van back and forth between the Detroit and Windsor station....unless perhaps you sell the van as a non-guaranteed self-transfer.


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## jebr (Oct 3, 2016)

I would go with "no" towards holding trains on either end for more than a short period of time (I'd put the threshold at 15 minutes, assuming the bus has cleared border security already.) It would be annoying to those that misconnected, but if the train is already delayed sometimes there's not much that can be done. The people that would be affected by such a delay would likely be fewer than those caused by delaying the train a significant period of time.

I'm not sure of the best way to handle border crossings; however, Amtrak seems to have some sort of contingency for border crossings with buses (at least in the Northwest, there's an early morning bus that connects to the Coast Starlight which I'm guessing will leave a passenger and have them wait for the next bus should there be a border crossing issue.) At some point if the connection looks dicey and there's one or two people holding up border security it may have to be a "sorry, but we'll pick you up at the next bus time. Call (number) for additional information once you've cleared border security." It sucks, but it's a potential issue no matter which mode of transport you use.


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## SarahZ (Oct 3, 2016)

Here are some forecasted wait times for those interested:

Ambassador Bridge: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/do-rb/time-temp/961-eng.html

Windsor Tunnel: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/do-rb/time-temp/907-eng.html

It appears the evening rush hour on Memorial Day (on the bridge, not in the tunnel) would be the biggest hassle.


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## Anderson (Oct 6, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> Here are some forecasted wait times for those interested:
> 
> Ambassador Bridge: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/do-rb/time-temp/961-eng.html
> 
> ...


Well, and there's the option to "Service Notice" a few key days and just not guarantee the connection on those days. Putting warnings up on 3-5 days/year wouldn't be an absurd thing.

One question regarding buses (my only bus crossing was a smooth affair): I know that the train often gets stuck in place on one or two pax. Is there a mechanism for a bus service leaving behind pax with "issues" (usually bad visas and the like) rather than waiting indefinitely since the inspection isn't taking place onboard?


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## railiner (Oct 6, 2016)

Anderson said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Here are some forecasted wait times for those interested:
> ...


It's a fairly common occurrence on our New York/Montreal buses...when a passenger gets delayed for clearance, they are left behind, and space is saved on the next schedule to pick them up...


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## SarahZ (Oct 6, 2016)

Anderson said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > Here are some forecasted wait times for those interested:
> ...


Precisely. I was pleased to see the delays aren't as bad as I thought. I figured rush hour on Fridays would be heavier.


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## fairviewroad (Oct 6, 2016)

SarahZ said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


Couple of things to keep in mind. First, those links are the average wait times entering Canada. I don't travel those specific crossings enough to compare US-bound versus Canada-bound wait times, but IME at many land crossings from Minnesota west to Washington, the US-bound wait is _always_ longer than the Canada-bound wait.

Second thing is, are those the average wait times for personal vehicles? It's not clear. Busses get their own area, passengers have to get off and go into a building, at least in my experience traveling between Vancouver and Seattle. I'm not sure those wait times are all that useful. Could be better, could be worse in terms of a bus.


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## SarahZ (Oct 6, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> Second thing is, are those the average wait times for personal vehicles? It's not clear. Buses get their own area, passengers have to get off and go into a building, at least in my experience traveling between Vancouver and Seattle. I'm not sure those wait times are all that useful. Could be better, could be worse in terms of a bus.


Excellent points.

I found a couple of sites that have the commercial vehicle wait times, but I don't know if those include buses. "Commercial vehicle" may refer to freight alone. It's hard to tell.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 6, 2016)

Based on many crossings between Detroit and Windsor, using the Tunnel to Canada is much less congested and quicker than the truck clogged Ambassador Bridge. Rush hours and when there are Sporting events in Detroit are especially bad since many commuters use the tunnel.

Not all cabs are licsened to cross the border, the Tunnel Bus between Detroit and Windsor is a good way to cross the border.

Since the new VIA Station has opened it takes longer to get there, but the traffic in Windsor isn't nearly as bad as Detroit!

IMO the American Border officials are much more thorough ( read slow) and brusk ( polite term for rude and unfriendly!) than their Canadian counterparts.

Honestly I'd plan to spend the night in Windsor ( cheaper than Detroit) and catch the early VIA train for Toronto the next morning if you're coming into Detroit from the West.


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