# Passenger dies after exiting train en route



## TampAGS (Jul 1, 2009)

The following are excerpts from the original article in the _Topeka Capital Journal_, linked below. 



> _*Man found dead on train tracks*__ By __James Carlson_ _ July 1, 2009 - 2:17pm _ _A man was found dead Tuesday morning on train tracks an hour northeast of Wichita after somehow exiting the moving locomotive. _
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Ok, granted, I'm not an authority on Superliner cars, but how is it possible for someone to exit the _Southwest Chief _in the middle of its journey?


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## GG-1 (Jul 1, 2009)

TampAGS said:


> The following are excerpts from the original article in the _Topeka Capital Journal_,





> Ok, granted, I'm not an authority on Superliner cars, but how is it possible for someone to exit the _Southwest Chief _in the middle of its journey?


Aloha

Sure was a sloppy story, first they did not know how a passenger left the locomotive??? Guest we must wait for a real newsperson


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 1, 2009)

TampAGS said:


> Ok, granted, I'm not an authority on Superliner cars, but how is it possible for someone to exit the _Southwest Chief _in the middle of its journey?


There are two latches on the lower vestibule door of a Superliner. You undog them and pull the door towards you.

Alternatively, a absent minded conductor may have forgotten to lock the rear-most door on the last coach car. That would be grounds for a lawsuit, by the way.


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## GG-1 (Jul 1, 2009)

Aloha

I thought the story so bad I called the paper, the editor promised to send me an update as soon as she could. She also agreed the word "Locomotive" was inappropriate.

Lets see what happen's


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 1, 2009)

The two dogs are not hard to open, if they were more difficult to open-- imagine the chaos that would happen in an emergency. They open easily--

What I wonder is how people took that long to notice, aren't there running indicator lights next to the door that glow green or yellow depending upon whether the door is secure? If a conductor looked down the consist, he should be able to see that the door was open.


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## AmtrakWPK (Jul 1, 2009)

They DID edit the story, to say it was a passenger on an Amtrak but that Amtrak says they don't yet know how he exited the train. The engineer on a freight saw him on the tracks in the morning and reported it. No mention of his exiting from a locomotive any more. Probably a good thing you contacted, them Eric......


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 1, 2009)

Come to think of it, somebody could have come across the open door and just closed it without thinking. I have done that once or twice with windows-- see it open, assume a pax wanted fresh air, and closed it up.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 1, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The two dogs are not hard to open, if they were more difficult to open-- imagine the chaos that would happen in an emergency. They open easily--
> What I wonder is how people took that long to notice, aren't there running indicator lights next to the door that glow green or yellow depending upon whether the door is secure? If a conductor looked down the consist, he should be able to see that the door was open.


The lights indicate status of the brakes and not if a door is open/closed. And since the doors open in, it would be hard to see if one comes open "in flight."


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## sky12065 (Jul 1, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Alternatively, a absent minded conductor may have forgotten to lock the rear-most door on the last coach car. That would be grounds for a lawsuit, by the way.


Given the body was found on the tracks, I would guess that your suggestion of the rear-most door would be the most likely probability!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 1, 2009)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > The two dogs are not hard to open, if they were more difficult to open-- imagine the chaos that would happen in an emergency. They open easily--
> ...


The bright light may have been a clue--

Either way... he could have jumped/fallen off the train at a low speed, survived the impact, and crawled back onto the track. I find it hard to believe that nobody noticed that the rear door was open, the conductors should have at least done rounds back to the end of the train.


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## sky12065 (Jul 1, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> If a conductor looked down the consist, he should be able to see that the door was open.


Not if the door was the rear one of the last car on the consist! And could you say the same if the open door was unexpectedly and for whatever reason on the opposite side from the one use at the stop you're referring to?


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 1, 2009)

maybe what happend was the person could have been drunk or under the influence and forgot that there was not another car and opened the door that leads inbetween cars and fell out the back of the train. so the person could have a sleeper but could have been coach sense sometimes sleepers are on the front.


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## PetalumaLoco (Jul 1, 2009)

Smoke break.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 1, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Smoke break.


He undogs the door to have a cig? You're kidding me... how stupid.

You could at least just leave the door closed and "only" open the window.


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## the_traveler (Jul 2, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
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> > Smoke break.
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Stupidity is not just the domain of Amtrak. I have heard of airline passengers who went to the lav - and opened up the exit door!


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 2, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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That's actually not possible on a pressurized aircraft. The way the doors are set up, they are sealed so tight when the plane is in flight, Hulk Hogan couldn't undo the latch.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 2, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> the_traveler said:
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Im no expert on airliners but I wonder how DB Cooper got out with the $$ over Washington?Also in Mexico Ive

ridden planes that the back exit Will Open to load the plane/unload and actually saw a flight crew member

have to close the door in flight because it wasnt closed? :lol:I have seen doors and windows open on

trains Ive ridden, in FTW the conductor left the rear door open after backing out until we got to Dallas!!

(A Superliner and I was in Roomette #5 watching him back the train of course! :lol:


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 2, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> maybe what happend was the person could have been drunk or under the influence and forgot that there was not another car and opened the door that leads inbetween cars and fell out the back of the train. so the person could have a sleeper but could have been coach sense sometimes sleepers are on the front.


That doesn't make sense. In order for that to happen the bars on the last door would have to be undone, and the dogs. A drunk pax couldn't have done that without somebody noticing.

I still maintain that if the crew had accidentally left the door open-- then SOMEBODY would have noticed. The conductors should have been doing rounds down the consist-- if one of them missed the fact that the last door was open then they deserve discipline.

But I go with the smoke break theory. Much easier for one of 10 side doors to be open than the one back door.

The fact that he was found on the tracks doesn't prove anything either way-- Is that portion of the route double-tracked? If so, then he opens the door that is on the side of track two, falls out on to track two.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 2, 2009)

im not talking about the door to exit the car ALC. im talking about the 2nd story door that everyone uses to in between the cars. after all one has to press were it says press to open and the door opens all by itself. on the back of the car HERE those bars are spaced far enough apart that the person could slid himself/herself down. maybe it was suicide.


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## Amtrak901 (Jul 2, 2009)

what a bazaar story


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 2, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> im not talking about the door to exit the car ALC. im talking about the 2nd story door that everyone uses to in between the cars. after all one has to press were it says press to open and the door opens all by itself. on the back of the car HERE those bars are spaced far enough apart that the person could slid himself/herself down. maybe it was suicide.


Um, yeah I know. I was talking about that door. Read my post carefully and you will see that I said the "one end door" and compared it to the "10 side doors".

That door can't be opened by just pressing it like any other door. It is protected by two bars that are sturdy enough to prevent somebody from simply taking them off. In addition the door itself should be sealed so that the only way to open it is to either get a conductor to do it or use the emergency manual system. A drunk guy can't walk there, press a button, and fall off a train assuming all normal safety operations were in place.

As for a man squeezing between them, good luck. He had to have been hell bent on doing it, and nobody seems to be talking suicide.

And even if I accept your postulation of suicide (which for the time being I do not) then why not use the side door? You'd kill yourself just as easy and only have to undo two dogs holding the thing in place.


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## PetalumaLoco (Jul 2, 2009)

Here's an item; a comment from a reader, on this page;



> This good and kind man was in Topeka visiting his three sons and family. He was retired from the railroad and was taking the train home to California. He had Epilepsy and on rare occasions would become confused. No one who knew Fred would believe anything "intentional" happened, but it is extremely likely he became disorientated and opened the wrong door. To "no.one.truth"and "Liberty76"; Your grotesques commits has caused pain to the family. So please keep your speculative idiocy to yourself. Thank you.


Apparently a response from a family member, as you can see.


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## cbender (Jul 2, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Im no expert on airliners but I wonder how DB Cooper got out with the $$ over Washington?Also in Mexico Iveridden planes that the back exit Will Open to load the plane/unload and actually saw a flight crew member
> 
> have to close the door in flight because it wasnt closed? :lol:I have seen doors and windows open on
> 
> ...


The DB Cooper incident occurred on a 727, which were originally equipped with rear exit stairs that could be opened. After the incident these were mostly removed and sealed up. Doors on modern aircraft are of the plug design that are designed to be unopenable in flight. Older aircraft did not always use such designs (e.g. DC10 cargo doors (AA96), 747 cargo doors (UA811) ).


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 2, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Here's an item; a comment from a reader, on this page;
> 
> 
> > This good and kind man was in Topeka visiting his three sons and family. He was retired from the railroad and was taking the train home to California. He had Epilepsy and on rare occasions would become confused. No one who knew Fred would believe anything "intentional" happened, but it is extremely likely he became disorientated and opened the wrong door. To "no.one.truth"and "Liberty76"; Your grotesques commits has caused pain to the family. So please keep your speculative idiocy to yourself. Thank you.
> ...


Hmm.. if he was indeed confused and disoriented, it seems less likely that he would be able to undog the rear door-- and rather opened the trackside side door to his car on the lower level.

I am still willing to bet this part of the route is double-tracked.


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## the_traveler (Jul 2, 2009)

Even if he was confused and disoriented, it does not seem likely that he would


Walk from the upper level down the stairs to the lower level

Fumble with the latches

*THEN* open *BOTH* the door and window to try and go between cars!


I find that hard to believe! :blink:

And if he did "leave" by the side door, don't you think someone (at sometime) might have noticed a door open? :huh: I doubt he closed it behind him!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 2, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Even if he was confused and disoriented, it does not seem likely that he would
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> Walk from the upper level down the stairs to the lower level
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> ...


As I said, I have noticed windows open on trains, if a conductor or pax came across one they just close it without thinking twice.

The only other option is:

[*]Walk from car to car to the end of the consist

[*]Fumble with the two bars

[*]Then open the door manually and (somehow) not notice the eight foot drop or notice that there is NOT a car behind him.

The information doesn't make it clear whether this man had a lower level seat either, which means he would have been right next to the doors anyway. ALSO what if he had to go to the bathroom, he goes to the bathroom and guess what-- he passes both doors.

And by the way, those dogs are not hard to open-- they are designed to be open by a frantic pax in an emergency, its two simple pulls and then the door will open.


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## GG-1 (Jul 2, 2009)

Aloha

The latest story on this is Here, It doesn't add much information, but is better written.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

Google Maps shows all the tracks I can find in the area to be single trackage. My theory as to what happened: Passenger is an older gentlemen with medical conditions so he gets a lower level coach. He gets disoriented on lower level during a late night bathroom break, mistaking the exit door as the door to the lower coach seating area. Somehow the idea gets in his head to follow the directions on opening the door, which he does. He then falls out of said moving train and bangs his head. He ends up dying next to the tracks. Local newspaper which has suspect writing skills then says he was on the track when he was actually next to the track.


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## AlanB (Jul 2, 2009)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > The two dogs are not hard to open, if they were more difficult to open-- imagine the chaos that would happen in an emergency. They open easily--
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Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.


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## George Harris (Jul 2, 2009)

Amtrak901 said:


> what a bazaar story


How about "bizarre"?  Somehow I don't think a shopping area was involved.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 2, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
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> 
> > Here's an item; a comment from a reader, on this page;
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ok on this rear door here where do you see dogs. you don't just the 2 press here buttons. that bar on the back is not going to prevent someone from falling. they could easily slide under. sense the man appears to suffer from epilepsy he could have pressed those buttons and either fell over the railing or slipped and fell under it.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 2, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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This will be the last time I ever reply to you as you clearly do not read my posts.

You should NOT be able to open that door AT ALL by pushing the buttons. It is sealed and can only be used by a conductor or in emergency operation-- yes it can be opened, but you can't just walk up and open it like every other door.

Those two bars are plenty to keep somebody from falling. One is right above knee level the other is right below chest level ABOVE the human center of gravity. If you walked right into it you wouldn't fall back as most of your weight is still on the train side of the bar.

Having a little experience with epilepsy, epilepsy would not cause you to wander across a train, operate a door in emergency operation and physically shift yourself over the bars to move your center of gravity over the bars. If anything, it would prevent you from accomplishing such a task as it is too complicated.

However, if the man was downstairs going to the bathroom, and decided to have a smoke break, or got confused or panicked for some reason-- he is only two dogs and a pull from two separate doors.

You also could not have slipped under it. If you slip you'd fall backward IN to the car, your feet might be hanging out of the train, but your whole body wouldn't fall back as your momentum is synched with the train. You'd simply fall on your butt. Think about it, if somebody falls on a train, they don't fall and slide back down the car-- they just fall.

High school physics.


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## jackal (Jul 2, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.


I must be dumb, then!!  But it was worth it!!







Seriously, I think the minimum clearance requirements on any railroad are enough that a typical passenger car will have a good few feet on either side of it. It may look like the signal masts and bridge supports are right outside the windows, but I'll bet you they're no narrower than any of the same on the Alaska Railroad, and the ARR conductors make no mention of pulling your head in when crossing bridges or passing power poles or anything. I've even stuck my hand out when crossing a bridge, and I barely even felt a whoosh of air.

All right, one more, since the effect is so cool:


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## Ryan (Jul 2, 2009)

Beautiful!!! Thanks for sharing.


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## GG-1 (Jul 2, 2009)

jackal said:


> AlanB said:
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> 
> > Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.
> ...


Mahalo for sharing such beautiful sights. and such clean equipment, And white snow, would be nice to see that train against our blue ocean


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## TVRM610 (Jul 2, 2009)

jackal said:


> AlanB said:
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> 
> > Besides, no conductor worth his/her salt is going to randomly stick their head out a window to look up and down the consist to check the light which don't indicate door status anyhow. A few conductors who have tried that never tried it again, as all to often they lost their head on a pole or bridge. One doesn't stick one's head out of a window on a moving train if one is smart.
> ...


Two Things.....

#1 - It is against Amtrak rules for passengers to open windows or doors, and it is against amtrak rules for passengers to stick any appendages outside of any said windows or doors. PLEASE do not violate rules on any railroad, and PLEASE do not argue with a Conductor on Amtrak that "the guys in Alaska let me do it" or anything like that, respect the rules that are put in place to keep you and all other passengers safe. (I'm not saying you would.. hopefully you would not, but I have heard people use worse excuses before!)

#2 -What you "seriously" think is "seriously" as in deadly wrong. There are many many places all over the United States on Mainline, and Shortline Railroads that hardly have any clearance at all and would not clear a human head looking out the side of a rail car. Perhaps this is not the case on the Alaskan RR so Conductors are lenient, that's fine, I'm not saying that's wrong if that's the case. But to put a blanket statement to people reading about Amtrak travel that there is always a couple feet of clearance on either side of the train can be very dangerous.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 3, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> That door can't be opened by just pressing it like any other door. It is protected by two bars that are sturdy enough to prevent somebody from simply taking them off. In addition the door itself should be sealed so that the only way to open it is to either get a conductor to do it or use the emergency manual system. A drunk guy can't walk there, press a button, and fall off a train assuming all normal safety operations were in place.


You're not grasping.

Under normal circumstances, assuming proper procedures were followed and the rear door properly locked and secured as it should have been, you are entirely correct.

In the event of NEGLIGENCE and NEGLECT OF DUTIES- which could simply be absentmindedness - of the yard crew who set it up and/or the conductor, the door and bars may not have been properly set up. Does it happen? Once in a great while I'm sure it does. Once in a rare while an idiot passenger mistakenly tries to open the rear door- no matter why. Once in a really great while the two mistakes combine to create a tragedy.

Is it possible the conductor, upon realizing what happened- or what might have happened - then corrected the problem on an inspection? Of course its possible. The conductor might have even been entirely unaware that something happened and may have even been relieved that he noticed the error.

Is it also possible, the conductor realizing his error cost a life, that the conductor never mentioned that in his report? If the other things happened, why can't that be the case too?

Stuff like this is usually a concurrence of unusual and often "impossible" events.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 3, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Stuff like this is usually a concurrence of unusual and often "impossible" events.


All your doing is building a house of cards. You're going out of your way and out of all logical reason to explain how that would happen. If it doesn't make sense it's not true.

What makes more sense? A man went downstairs, maybe to the bathroom, maybe to get a smoke, wanted fresh air, undogged the door and fell out or...

Somehow the bars were removed from the back door, or totally improperly installed. Somehow this goes unnoticed. Somehow the door is properly secured. Again somehow nobody notices. Nobody notices that the back door to the train is open, and a disoriented man manages to manually open the door and fall out?

That's a lot of somehows... in fact, it would require five things to go wrong, all of which fall on the conductors.

The side-door theory has only two somehows... two things to go wrong. Down in the bottom of a coach or sleeper versus in the upper level where there usually are pax sleeping only ten feet behind you.

Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...


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## AlanB (Jul 3, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...


You, and everyone else, are putting way too much stock in the news stories "on the track" comment. To a layman, on the track can mean anyplace on the entire ROW. To us, it means between the two rails. But not to everyone else.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 3, 2009)

AlanB said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > Somebody get me a map of this location, ten bucks says the route is double-tracked and the man was found on the OTHER track that the Amtrak train was traveling on...
> ...


Thank Alan, you're right.

It only makes the side-door option more plausible. The only reason the rear-door theory started was because people tried to justify "on the track".

Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...


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## AlanB (Jul 3, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> AlanB said:
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And let's not forget that this is the story that originally had the man falling out of the locomotive. 

So their attention to detail leaves a lot to be desired, and I have major doubts about their RR terminology knowledge.


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## the_traveler (Jul 3, 2009)

Great pictures! Almost makes me want to go! (But I can't take Amtrak to there.  )



jackal said:


> I must be dumb, then!!


At least you admit it! :lol:


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## AlanB (Jul 3, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> #2 -What you "seriously" think is "seriously" as in deadly wrong. There are many many places all over the United States on Mainline, and Shortline Railroads that hardly have any clearance at all and would not clear a human head looking out the side of a rail car. Perhaps this is not the case on the Alaskan RR so Conductors are lenient, that's fine, I'm not saying that's wrong if that's the case. But to put a blanket statement to people reading about Amtrak travel that there is always a couple feet of clearance on either side of the train can be very dangerous.


I for one consider this to be very important advice. While I will admit that most of the stories that I've seen over the years where a conductor was decapitated, or at least badly injured, after sticking their head out a window occured in a subway system, I know for sure that I've seen at least 1 and maybe 2 stories on Amtrak conductors having been killed or injured.

So it does happen!


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 3, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...


My theory isn't crazy, it makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying its right. I wasn't there watching the doofus cascade out of the train. I'm simply trying to demonstrate it as a possibility.

All I ask of you, ALC, is that you stop saying my suggestion shouldn't be considered, and that it is, in your words, "crazy". Because it isn't.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 3, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
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> > Stuff like this is usually a concurrence of unusual and often "impossible" events.
> ...


the rear door on a superliner just like all the other doors that you go through to go from one car to another are automatic when the switch is set to. so you press to open button the door slides open. then it closes behind you. if in sleeper the attendant could have been busy or sleeping and never noticed the man opening the rear door. sense it said he gets confused he could have thought he was wandering into another car and forced the door open thinking it was broken and fell out.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 3, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > Seriously, let's stop with the crazy theories...
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Possibility? Yeah. Probability? No.

Not to mention, it just doesn't make sense. Things that don't make sense are not true. I will not consider a suggestion that cannot be demonstrated as true. As a hypothetical if functions, but we have no proof of concept to go off of, much less any actual past experience to draw that conclusion.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 3, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
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Wow. Just... Wow. "Things that don't make sense are not true"? What? George W. Bush won not one but TWO elections to become one of the most hated presidents ever. Does that make sense? No. Is it true? Yes.

Further, I fail to see how it doesn't make sense. You know what. We have several Amtrak employees on here, not to mention former employees. If one of them cares to come in here and say my suggestion doesn't make sense, I'll concede. Until such time, either find empirical proof that what I suggest doesn't make sense, or stop contriving such tommyrot.


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## EB_OBS (Jul 3, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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> > Green Maned Lion said:
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The rear door of a consist is locked with a key. The switch crew that puts cars together to build a consist would put up the safety bars and lock the door and turn it off. The train crew, or conductors would then check the condition of this door before the train departed to ensure it was secured. If the door is locked then you must have a coach key to unlock it.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 3, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
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Here you go:



> The rear door of a consist is locked with a key. The switch crew that puts cars together to build a consist would put up the safety bars and lock the door and turn it off. The train crew, or conductors would then check the condition of this door before the train departed to ensure it was secured. If the door is locked then you must have a coach key to unlock it.


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## RTOlson (Jul 3, 2009)

Would they really lock the door? The last End Door of a train consisting of Superliner cars is one of the escape options in an emergency. It, along with the upper windows, are the last resort (after going to the next car in the consist and trying the lower doors and windows). A Flickr user uploaded photos of the Amtrak Superliner Customer Safety Instructions. Here is the relevant detail:



> *CAUTION:* Beware of steep drop through the upper level emergency windows and the last End Door on the train. Use only as a last resort.


So I doubt they actually "lock" the door. To speculate, they may disable the automatic door switches. I've seen a switch that can hold Superliner vestibule doors open, might this be the switch used to disable automatic door-opening? Meaning you would have to push the door open in an emergency.

Anyway, I find both of the leading theories plausible. I would also wait for the results of the investigation before assigning fault. Amtrak discourages the passengers from directly using these doors, but a motivated person could easily open any door or emergency window meant to be accessible during an emergency.

It may be a matter of waiting for the autopsy to help determine the likely chain of events. My crime-TV-addled mind may be putting too much stock in the science, but I believe there may be different blunt force trauma based on slipping out of a upper-level End Door (perhaps legs first) and stepping out of a lower-level door (probably more general trauma as the body decelerated).


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Jul 3, 2009)

If I remember correctly there are 2 doors on a single level car and the bars. The first door is the automatic push button door we are all familiar with, this door should be turned off when it is on the tail of a train. When the automatic door is off it has to be manually forced open and closed. The second door is sort of hidden when the car is mid-train. The second door is pushed into the vestibule wall and locked into place when the car is mid-train, when it is on the end of the train it is locked closed. Then you have 1-2 lateral bars that lock into place.

I would guess it is safe to assume a Superliner is set up in the same way. I don't remember specifically noticing the set-up, but assuming the set-up is the same the passenger would have needed to negotiate 3 barriers to be able to fall, jump, or be pushed from the rear of the train. Of course this also means I'm assuming that we live a perfect world where all 3 of these barriers are in place and functioning every time.

My guess is the passenger left the train through a side door, that was either left open of was opened by himself. I would also guess that "on the track" means on or near the ROW.

Of course if we consider suicide as a possibility then both the rear and side doors are likely.

A third possibility is the passenger de-trained at the prior stop. Its possible he exited the train and the train began to leave, so he grabbed onto some part of the train. Since he was a retired railroad employee, he would have known how to hold on to a train car for an extended period of time. He may have grabbed onto his departing train hoping that he could make it to a door and get back on, or that he could hold on until the next station.

Personally I don't think we will ever know for sure how he ended up outside the train.


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## RTOlson (Jul 3, 2009)

I can't speak for single-level cars, but I'm fairly certain Superliners have just one door at each end of the upper level.

I've stood at the rear of the train made up of Superliners to take photos (and at the front of the cars to shoot past the locomotive). IIRC, there was only one door and there was only one window to shoot through.

Take a look at the layout of the consist from the Superliner safety card (at the top of the image). It shows the doors fairly clearly and there is only one at the end of the train.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 3, 2009)

whats funny is that first choice it says use the upper level end doors but then it says use as a last resort so shouldn't it be last on the card.


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## RTOlson (Jul 3, 2009)

It says use the End Doors … to move to another car on the train. If you use the End Door at the rear of the train, there's no car to move to (and Amtrak tells you to use that as a last resort).

It could be confusing, but I think they spell it out all right.


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## TVRM610 (Jul 3, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> If I remember correctly there are 2 doors on a single level car and the bars. The first door is the automatic push button door we are all familiar with, this door should be turned off when it is on the tail of a train. When the automatic door is off it has to be manually forced open and closed. The second door is sort of hidden when the car is mid-train. The second door is pushed into the vestibule wall and locked into place when the car is mid-train, when it is on the end of the train it is locked closed. Then you have 1-2 lateral bars that lock into place.
> I would guess it is safe to assume a Superliner is set up in the same way. I don't remember specifically noticing the set-up, but assuming the set-up is the same the passenger would have needed to negotiate 3 barriers to be able to fall, jump, or be pushed from the rear of the train. Of course this also means I'm assuming that we live a perfect world where all 3 of these barriers are in place and functioning every time.


I am about 95% sure that superliners do not have this second set of doors. The doors you are talking about on the single level amfleets swing out into the vestibules... there is no vestibule on superliner cars (or at least what I call a vestibule).


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## TVRM610 (Jul 3, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


How does it make sense that a computer designed to keep trains from running into each other ran trains into each other?

Sorry.. but I think GML makes perfect sense here... if the door was not set correctly, which is very very possible, the man could have pushed a button, the door opened, and off he goes... weather or not the bar was in place. Is it likely? no... but it's not likely that a man falls off a train at all!

IF the man actually fell off the moving train there are two options, both of them would have required the man to un-do or go around some sort of safety device, weather its latches on doors, or metal bars at the end of the train.


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## the_traveler (Jul 3, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> If I remember correctly there are 2 doors on a single level car and the bars. The first door is the automatic push button door we are all familiar with, this door should be turned off when it is on the tail of a train. When the automatic door is off it has to be manually forced open and closed. The second door is sort of hidden when the car is mid-train. The second door is pushed into the vestibule wall and locked into place when the car is mid-train, when it is on the end of the train it is locked closed. Then you have 1-2 lateral bars that lock into place.
> I would guess it is safe to assume a Superliner is set up in the same way.


On single level cars, there is that 2nd door. But on Superliners, there is not.


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## RailFanLNK (Jul 3, 2009)

I am a very sound sleeper, even though I do have trouble falling asleep on Amtrak due to the excitement and the difference of "not being in my own bed". With that said, I can get up in the middle of the night and have no clue that I was up. I also sometimes use sleep aids on Amtrak (downers) and can sympathize with someone who may have been disoriented or on medication. Just recently my girlfriend had taken a sleep aid and we were in a remote and rustic cabin in the edges of the wilderness in Northern Minnesota, something jogged me awake when I heard her walking about in the cabin at 3am. I fully knew she could easily just walk right into the forest or lake and never been seen again.


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## DowneasterPassenger (Jul 3, 2009)

I'm on California Amtrak 718 thinking about this scenario. I'm sitting in the rear car. We are in push-mode so the locomotive is behind me. Between me and the locomotive is a standard Amtrak button door. There is also a single safety rod outside the door at about waist height. No second door. If I could somehow open that door then I might fall onto the locomotive, and off of it. But California cars are not the same as Superliners, the Southwest Chief probaably wasn't being pushed, so my story doesn't make sense, and therefore probably isn't true.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 4, 2009)

ez223 said:


> The rear door of a consist is locked with a key. The switch crew that puts cars together to build a consist would put up the safety bars and lock the door and turn it off. The train crew, or conductors would then check the condition of this door before the train departed to ensure it was secured. If the door is locked then you must have a coach key to unlock it.


So you would agree that it is, indeed, possible that if the crew was being negligent that what I was proposing could happen?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 4, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > The rear door of a consist is locked with a key. The switch crew that puts cars together to build a consist would put up the safety bars and lock the door and turn it off. The train crew, or conductors would then check the condition of this door before the train departed to ensure it was secured. If the door is locked then you must have a coach key to unlock it.
> ...


The level of negligence you suggest is beyond the realm of possibility. Remember, this has to go unnoticed since the train was hooked up in the yards...


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 4, 2009)

Entirely possible. The only way you'd actually notice is the lack of bars on the back of the train, or actually trying to open the door. The Conductor could easily not get around to pushing the button, and might not happen to look in that area when he's supposed to. We're not talking about a misplaced neon light here.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 4, 2009)

So never, during all of the crew changes, never when any pax looked back to see the track rolling by, nobody notices anythign wrong?

Hell I've seen many SAs or ACs sit back right next to the door for periods of time in between rounds.

Your only problem is that you got so much crap to go wrong that it is a house of cards. In theory, yes you can build one. In practice-- it never happens.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 4, 2009)

The bars are on the outside of the bleedin' train. You can't see them from the inside!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 4, 2009)

Yeah but you can see them from the back quite easily.


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## tp49 (Jul 4, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > The rear door of a consist is locked with a key. The switch crew that puts cars together to build a consist would put up the safety bars and lock the door and turn it off. The train crew, or conductors would then check the condition of this door before the train departed to ensure it was secured. If the door is locked then you must have a coach key to unlock it.
> ...


Crew doesn't have to be negligent, through I agree it is quite possible. The door switch itself could fail. Switch could give all appearances of working properly but it's not.


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## MattW (Jul 4, 2009)

If you're talking about passengers seeing the bars and noticing something wrong, I didn't even know about the bars until reading this thread. As for a crewmember, unless they were supposed to, would they even look out the back of the train?


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## JasonVG (Jul 4, 2009)

wow I never heard anything about that. I was on that train.


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## caravanman (Jul 5, 2009)

You guys have created 4 pages discussing the means of a poor mans demise. I wonder if members of the forum could show a liitle more sensitivity, and perhaps also consider this quotation:,

"The term anal-retentive (or anally retentive, anal retentive), commonly abbreviated to "anal", is used to describe persons with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others".

Ed (not, for once, feeling cool after reading this post)


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## jackal (Jul 5, 2009)

caravanman said:


> You guys have created 4 pages discussing the means of a poor mans demise. I wonder if members of the forum could show a liitle more sensitivity, and perhaps also consider this quotation:,
> "The term anal-retentive (or anally retentive, anal retentive), commonly abbreviated to "anal", is used to describe persons with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others".
> 
> Ed (not, for once, feeling cool after reading this post)


Thank you for finally being brave enough to say it! (I don't know why I kept reading this topic after it degenerated so.)

We'll find out what happened eventually. Idle armchair speculation does nothing to further the investigation, and, as the person quoted from the comments on the original article, can even lead to additional pain to the victim's family.


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## RTOlson (Jul 5, 2009)

caravanman said:


> You guys have created 4 pages discussing the means of a poor mans demise. I wonder if members of the forum could show a liitle more sensitivity, and perhaps also consider this quotation:,
> "The term anal-retentive (or anally retentive, anal retentive), commonly abbreviated to "anal", is used to describe persons with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others".


It's an interesting couple of thoughts. I would hasten to point out that this is a _discussion_ board. Why are we here, if not to discuss things?

You could post that definition for "anal retentive" on every single thread that has more than three pages. Many of the posters here are train/Amtrak enthusiasts and tackle discussions with the same zeal that they have for trains. Thankfully, you and others have the option to _not_ read this thread (just as we have the option to keep discussing the matter).

I feel sorry the man died and I have no disrespect for the family. I would also point out that no apparent family member has posted on _this_thread. Comments that happened off the site are just that — comments off the site that have no direct bearing on this specific discussion.

If family members had posted to this thread, I would hope that we would be considerate of their comments. However, that doesn't mean that we should dismiss all the possibilities, just that they should continue to be discussed in a respectful manner.

You are right that a lot of this thread is speculation (and the thread was slowly dying out because we've exhaustively gone over many of the theories). I've chimed in on this thread because some statements needed clarification and some were eager to assign blame when it may be too early to make that determination.

I appreciated this thread being open and my being allowed to post factual information to it while it was still ongoing.


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## jackal (Jul 6, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> > You guys have created 4 pages discussing the means of a poor mans demise. I wonder if members of the forum could show a liitle more sensitivity, and perhaps also consider this quotation:,
> ...


Valid points, but it has happened a time or two since I've been a member where we were discussing a situation (including making some slightly disparaging remarks about the person involved in the situation) only to have a family member stumble across the thread while searching the Internet and post that they were quite offended and/or our discussion opened up raw wounds. As a public forum, we must keep in mind that what we say may get back to the object of the discussion.

My point, and the point that Ed was also alluding to (I assume), was that the discussion was proceeding ad nauseum, with a few members getting extremely hot and defensive about extremely minor points. I kept saying to myself as I was reading the thread, "What the heck does it matter?" If it were some major issue that were a tremendous danger to everyone that needed addressing in order to prevent it from happening, that would be one thing, but this was a random, isolated incident. So what if the guy opened the side door? So what if the yard crew that made up the train forgot to lock (or disable the opening mechanism or whatever they do) the end door? All we needed here was one person to point out that it was possible, but for people to argue back and forth a dozen times that one or the other is absolutely impossible and there's no way the victim could have fallen out of either door because of or in spite of his state just seems a bit...excessive.

It's one thing to discuss something. It's another to beat a dead horse.

Oh, and I know why I kept reading this thread...strictly to see if anyone else were going to comment on my pictures!


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## tony (Jul 6, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> It says use the End Doors … to move to another car on the train. If you use the End Door at the rear of the train, there's no car to move to (and Amtrak tells you to use that as a last resort).
> It could be confusing, but I think they spell it out all right.


Before the emergency, there could have been another car on the other side of the End Door, but due to the nature of the emergency, there isn't another car anymore. I mean, a derailment isn't an unheard of type of emergency.


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## Tony (Jul 6, 2009)

Just to add my own spin to this long thread, let me mention that most of us here are experienced Amtrak passengers. We have a really good idea of what it normally takes to open a door. And if it took an unusual set of operations to open, we would all realize something was wrong.

However, I could envision a first-time passenger being unfamiliar with what it takes to open a door, and think that all the (overriding) operations is simply normal (and certainly annoying and troublesome). I mean, isn't a 12-step procedure normal when one wants to go between cars on a moving train?


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## VentureForth (Jul 6, 2009)

My two (or three or four) cents:

1) DB Cooper exited the aircraft after giving explicit instructions to the crew to fly below 12,000 feet and unpressurized (this is very possible, and and FAA regulations don't require pressurization at 12,000 feet). That made it: a) Possible for the door to be opened, whether manually or mechanically; b) allowed him to breathe at the beginning of the jump.

2) If ANY door was opened during a train ride, upstairs, downstairs, front, back, etc., someone would notice. Even in the middle of the night. It's hardly silent. Shame on any pax not reporting it, and for any SCA/SA/OBS/etc., for not noticing.

3) I don't think it mentioned anywhere that this happened on double or single track. A lot of the SWC is double. Therefore, exiting the side could have landed him on the tracks that he wasn't travelling on.


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## amtkstn (Jul 6, 2009)

The only part of the SWC route that is single track is from Kansas City to La Junta CO.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 6, 2009)

i have seen videos of superliner trains going down the track and one of the side doors open.


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## TVRM610 (Jul 6, 2009)

jackal said:


> It's one thing to discuss something. It's another to beat a dead horse.
> Oh, and I know why I kept reading this thread...strictly to see if anyone else were going to comment on my pictures!


Or are we beating a dead IRON horse? hahahahahahaha oh ok... not funny.

Your pictures are amazing and beautiful but they don't make sense, so they were never taken.


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## George Harris (Jul 6, 2009)

For the head out the window discussion: There are quite a few places in the Northeast Corridor where features are very close to the side of the train. For most of the rest of the railroad system in the US, location of any fixed item close enough to the track to take of the head of somebody just sticking his head out is extremely rare. A normal passenger car is 10'-0" wide, that is 5'-0" from track center to side of car. Even most older through truss bridges will have the closest steel at least 6'-0" or more from the track and any built since the mid 1920's will probably have the closest steel at least 8'-0" off the track center. (The current standard is no less than 9'-0".)

Having your head taken off by some fixed object is not the major issue with sticking your head out. It is flying dust, dirt, bugs, birds, other small objects hitting you in the face or worse your eyes. In general, the Alaska Railroad speeds are not high, probably no more than 50 mph, and in the crooked portions much less. Even in Kansas where this accident occurred, the Southwest Chief spends a lot of its time running at or near 79 mph. West of Albuquerque, make that 90 mph.

Yes, I used to be guilty of quite a bit of head out the door train riding, but that was generally 40 to 45 years ago when I was young and crazier, and on Southern Railway in East Tennessee where speeds were seldom as fast as 60 mph, and usually a lot less for the parts where I stuck my head out.

I am not going to speculate how the man fell out. You can bet there are ongoing investigations working on that issue.


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## DowneasterPassenger (Jul 6, 2009)

When I rode the Trans-Siberian in the far east of Russia in 1995, the coaches were set up "European-style" with the corridor down one side. All the windows opened. The passengers passed the time standing there, their heads stuck out the windows, some smoking.


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## PetalumaLoco (Jul 6, 2009)

SanJoaquinRider said:


> When I rode the Trans-Siberian in the far east of Russia in 1995, the coaches were set up "European-style" with the corridor down one side. All the windows opened. The passengers passed the time standing there, their heads stuck out the windows, some smoking.


I did that on a Paris-Munich train the same year. No big deal at the time.


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## Rob_C (Jul 6, 2009)

I dunno... retired railroad employee has freak accident the defies a lot of safety protocol and logic. Sometimes the only reasonable answer left has to be the truth. The guy was murdered by someone on the train, maybe even an employee on the train that had a grudge against him. Sure it's speculation, but are any of the other theories any more likely? It would be pretty amazing if his medical conditioned allowed him to do all the things necessary to exit the train on his own power. *shrug*

Rob


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 6, 2009)

maybe he thought that he still worked for the RR and was opening the door thinking the train was stopped to let pax out and stepped out of the moving train.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 7, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> maybe he thought that he still worked for the RR and was opening the door thinking the train was stopped to let pax out and stepped out of the moving train.


Uhh... Perhaps he was just generally "confused".


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## jackal (Jul 7, 2009)

George Harris said:


> For the head out the window discussion: There are quite a few places in the Northeast Corridor where features are very close to the side of the train. For most of the rest of the railroad system in the US, location of any fixed item close enough to the track to take of the head of somebody just sticking his head out is extremely rare. A normal passenger car is 10'-0" wide, that is 5'-0" from track center to side of car. Even most older through truss bridges will have the closest steel at least 6'-0" or more from the track and any built since the mid 1920's will probably have the closest steel at least 8'-0" off the track center. (The current standard is no less than 9'-0".)
> Having your head taken off by some fixed object is not the major issue with sticking your head out. It is flying dust, dirt, bugs, birds, other small objects hitting you in the face or worse your eyes. In general, the Alaska Railroad speeds are not high, probably no more than 50 mph, and in the crooked portions much less. Even in Kansas where this accident occurred, the Southwest Chief spends a lot of its time running at or near 79 mph. West of Albuquerque, make that 90 mph.


Maximum speed on the ARR is 65mph. That's about 13 miles of track just north of Anchorage. After Wasilla (home of you-know-who, who told me her childhood home's driveway (or access road, something like that) crossed the tracks and she used to listen to the train whistles when growing up), the CTC ends, and the fastest speed is 59mph. But you're right: a lot of the time, the train is going 40, 30, or even 15 mph.

Some of the older through truss bridges on the RR look narrow but easily clear even a fully-outstretched hand (they're probably at least 8-9' from track center, although it's possible that these bridges were rebuilt after the original 1903-1909 construction).

Even if we're just talking about lopping off heads, I find it somewhat hard to believe that a head sticking out 8" would be in danger, since that would also knock off the locomotives' mirrors (which extend out at least 4-5" from the train). Outstretched hands, maybe, but not a head just barely protruding from the window to look up and down the train.


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## Chris J. (Jul 7, 2009)

George Harris said:


> Having your head taken off by some fixed object is not the major issue with sticking your head out. It is flying dust, dirt, bugs, birds, other small objects hitting you in the face or worse your eyes.


On trains that don't use retention tanks, you need to think what that fine mist in the air is as you hang your head out of the window...


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jul 7, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> maybe he thought that he still worked for the RR and was opening the door thinking the train was stopped to let pax out and stepped out of the moving train.


Working for the railroad does not mean you worked on the train as a conductor or attendant. Class I railroads fill entire office buildings of "railroad workers" and in Amtrak's case some of the agents on the phone working in call centers could be considered "railroaders"


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 7, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > maybe he thought that he still worked for the RR and was opening the door thinking the train was stopped to let pax out and stepped out of the moving train.
> ...


my point is it said he suffers from epilepsy and gets confused so he might have had one got confused and thought he was a conductor or something and opened the door and stepped out of the train thinking it was stopped at a platform but it was not.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jul 7, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Long Train Runnin said:
> 
> 
> > amtrakwolverine said:
> ...


Sure.. after all anything is possible.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 7, 2009)

Long Train Runnin said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > Long Train Runnin said:
> ...


He could have though he was Neil Armstrong on board the _Eagle_ and he needed to take his first steps on the Moon. But you don't suggest a man is senile because he has epilepsy! Confusion and demensia are two different things!


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## GG-1 (Jul 7, 2009)

Maybe it is time to wait and see what comes from official Sources, Some of the speculation is getting way to far from logic.

Please lets share the Aloha


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jul 7, 2009)

GG-1 said:


> Maybe it is time to wait and see what comes from official Sources, Some of the speculation is getting way to far from logic.
> Please lets share the Aloha


I concur either way its terrible thing to have happen. I just hope they don't find the crew at fault.


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## DET63 (Jul 8, 2009)

Regarding Dan (commonly though erroneously referred to as "D.B.") Cooper: I believe he did leave the plane though a tail exit after ordering it descend to 12,000 feet (more or less). One of the great mysteries is whether he survived the escape. Since he has not been found (either dead or alive), we'll never know.

Regarding the possibility of the victim opening a side door unnoticed, I think it's a distinct possibility. I remember reading about a woman suffering from Alzheimer's who wanted to step out onto her patio. The problem was, the "house" (an Amtrak train) was moving along at 79 mph; the patio wasn't. I don't know if the story's true, but it seems at least remotely plausible.

I don't know how easy it would be for a person to get out through a rear door, assuming that it had been left unlocked. I also don't know how easy it would be for train crewmen to leave the door unlocked without one of them noticing it. I would think that the door has some indicator obvious to crew members indicating that it was locked, but I could be wrong.


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## JAChooChoo (Jul 8, 2009)

DET63 said:


> .......I don't know how easy it would be for a person to get out through a rear door, assuming that it had been left unlocked. I also don't know how easy it would be for train crewmen to leave the door unlocked without one of them noticing it. I would think that the door has some indicator obvious to crew members indicating that it was locked, but I could be wrong.



Remember that there is no special "rear" door, it is simply one of the two end doors on every Superliner. We need to find someone who actually* knows* the *required procedures* for securing the rear of the train,


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 8, 2009)

JAChooChoo said:


> DET63 said:
> 
> 
> > .......I don't know how easy it would be for a person to get out through a rear door, assuming that it had been left unlocked. I also don't know how easy it would be for train crewmen to leave the door unlocked without one of them noticing it. I would think that the door has some indicator obvious to crew members indicating that it was locked, but I could be wrong.
> ...


Incorrect.

The final door of a consist is locked so that a pax cannot simply hit the switch to open it, it would require either a key or emergency operation. In addition, as was previously stated, and debated, there are two steel bars that are put there by the operating crew and secured. It is not "simply" anything, if secured properly (which is hard to image it was not) it should be only possible to open during emergency operation.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2009)

What if he was abducted by aliens, but when they went to return him they couldn't find the train so they just left him where they found him...


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## PetalumaLoco (Jul 8, 2009)

Guest said:


> What if he was abducted by aliens, but when they went to return him they couldn't find the train so they just left him where they found him...


That's got to be it! Good job, I like this one best of all!


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## PetalumaLoco (Jul 8, 2009)

At least this proves you can sleepwalk your way off of a moving train.

NYT PDF file.

If you do a google of

man falls from train

you get lots of hits in India. Here's why. Don't worry, it's not graphic.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 8, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> JAChooChoo said:
> 
> 
> > DET63 said:
> ...


Those bars are just held into place by gravity, basically. Its not a complicated procedure to remove them.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > JAChooChoo said:
> ...


Of course not-- if they were overly-complicated then in an emergency they'd be a bad thing.

Your intrusion is unwarranted anyway. The poster I was responded to suggested that the rear door was just like a regular door in all respects, which it is not. The man did not fall out of the rear door. Your constant insistence that he has is, in my belief, only because you just don't want to be wrong and thus have overlooked the more logical and more reasonable accidents that could have happened.


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## oldtimer (Jul 8, 2009)

All of the upper level doors on Superliners have two bars that are held in position (Up or Down)by spring loaded latches.

These latches when in the down position usually require two hands to release and there are no instructions in the area regarding their release. These bars are latched down when any Superliner train except the EB is backed down to CUS from 14th St Coach yard. The conductor uses a backup hose connected to the brake pipe to stop the train in CUS. The rear door of the consist is disarmed (Power to the door open push plates is removed) and the door is locked with a coach key.

The fact that the poor soul was fatally injured was probably due to him or someone opening a vestibule door. This has happened in the past. "Inside Edition" did a story on this being done by an elderly female passenger several years ago. Amtrak has had several safety campaigns regrading the latching of safety bars and securing all outside doors. The vestibule doors MUST be easy to open as they are primary emergency exits and entrances for first responders. Keep in mind if you are ever called upon to open one that they are balanced to control the 400# + weight on level ground, if the car is not level or the door is damaged that weight may come at you.

Amtrak does recommend that elderly passengers or those that cannot take care of themselves to travel with a companion.

I speak from 30 years experience working on Superliners, and 10 years prior to their release.

Thank You

OT II


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## EB_OBS (Jul 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > JAChooChoo said:
> ...


No, there are spring loaded latches that can actually be hard to depress sometimes.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 8, 2009)

oldtimer2 said:


> The fact that the poor soul was fatally injured was probably due to him or someone opening a vestibule door. This has happened in the past. "Inside Edition" did a story on this being done by an elderly female passenger several years ago. Amtrak has had several safety campaigns regrading the latching of safety bars and securing all outside doors. The vestibule doors MUST be easy to open as they are primary emergency exits and entrances for first responders. Keep in mind if you are ever called upon to open one that they are balanced to control the 400# + weight on level ground, if the car is not level or the door is damaged that weight may come at you.


Tthank you for the information, I'm sure it will make some people who think that the man just walked out of the back of the train realize that the side doors are the way this happened.


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## RTOlson (Jul 8, 2009)

oldtimer2 said:


> The rear door of the consist is disarmed (Power to the door open push plates is removed) and the door is locked with a coach key.


We're going in circles about this. How can Amtrak lock the rear End Door when it is part of a passenger's emergency escape routes?



RTOlson said:


> It, along with the upper windows, are the last resort (after going to the next car in the consist and trying the lower doors and windows). A Flickr user uploaded photos of the Amtrak Superliner Customer Safety Instructions. Here is the relevant detail:
> 
> 
> > *CAUTION*: Beware of steep drop through the upper level emergency windows and the last End Door on the train. Use only as a last resort.


So I still doubt they actually "lock" the door. If Amtrak does this, they probably need to update the emergency procedures so a passenger doesn't find out the hard way about this.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 8, 2009)

I stand corrected. I must be thinking of other car types.

In anycase, it is not impossible that what I suggested happened. I can't be wrong because I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just putting forth a theory and stating that it is a reasonable possibility and asking you not to keep acting like my theory is impossible. Actually, if you remember (go look at the top of this thread) I put forth both theories. I have no idea which is correct, or if neither is correct. I don't actually care.

I just want to be at the International Darwin Award Ceremony when this doofus gets his award.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 8, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> oldtimer2 said:
> 
> 
> > The rear door of the consist is disarmed (Power to the door open push plates is removed) and the door is locked with a coach key.
> ...


All doors can be opened manually. You can trip all doors into emergency mode using the little red switch. By flipping this switch all door units can be pulled open without power. As a matter of fact, if doors fail en route (which happens all the time, esp in winter) you can muscle the door open without using the emergency switch however this does require muscle (and I mean it) I once helped this elderly Japanese woman who had been trapped in the vestibule and couldn't get the switch to work right, I was on the other end of the door and tried my switch but it didn't work. It was a cold January day on the Penny, all the doors were freezing and failing. It took me a moment but I managed to force the door opened.

As for the last door, I don't think you can open it without a coach key. In an emergency, the AC, SA, or Conductor should be able to open the door and check to make sure the track is clear before helping with the evacuation.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I stand corrected. I must be thinking of other car types.
> In anycase, it is not impossible that what I suggested happened. I can't be wrong because I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just putting forth a theory and stating that it is a reasonable possibility and asking you not to keep acting like my theory is impossible. Actually, if you remember (go look at the top of this thread) I put forth both theories. I have no idea which is correct, or if neither is correct. I don't actually care.
> 
> I just want to be at the International Darwin Award Ceremony when this doofus gets his award.


Never speak ill of the dead.

I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 9, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Never speak ill of the dead.


Yes, mom. 



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.


Under reasonable circumstances, men do not come cascading out of the Southwest Chief.


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## RTOlson (Jul 9, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.


Given that the investigation is ongoing, it is in the realm of possibility that the man may have used either the rear End Door or the lower-level vestibules.

The rear End Door is likely improbable, but not impossible (again in the absence of any evidence to the contrary). That fact that actual Amtrak documents show the rear End Door an emergency escape for passengers demonstrates this possibility. To this point, no one has refuted this passenger safety card (although there have been undocumented claims about the rear End Door being locked).

It's possible, nothing more. That's all there is until the investigation is complete.


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## EB_OBS (Jul 9, 2009)

The rear-end door is locked with a coach key. Up on the top, on one side of the door is a key slot which a coach key fits.

If the rear door wasn't locked, how many passengers would be opening this door all the time? Without it being locked it's way too simple for any joker to flip the switch and press the button and open it.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 9, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.
> ...


"Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence..."

They said the same things about WMDs in Iraq.


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## RTOlson (Jul 9, 2009)

ez223 said:


> The rear-end door is locked with a coach key. Up on the top, on one side of the door is a key slot which a coach key fits.


If that is the truly the case, then Amtrak needs to revise its Superliner passenger safety card. Amtrak could be providing wrong information that may be fatal in an emergency.

If the rear End Door is indeed locked, no passenger could be reasonably expected to use it as a (last-resort) emergency exit. The provided safety card gives no information about the door being locked and about needing assistance from on-board staff.

I believe I will contact Amtrak about my concerns.

Even if it were standard operating procedure to lock the rear End Door, the investigation would need to show that this procedure was followed. This, again, doesn't exclude the _possibility_ that the victim may have exited the rear End Door.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jul 9, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > The rear-end door is locked with a coach key. Up on the top, on one side of the door is a key slot which a coach key fits.
> ...


Um... if there were an emergency there are no less than five coach keys and five people trained to assist an evacuation. This is why it is last resort. Remember that the guide tells you to cross from car to car but not use the last door, rather it guides you to a clear car with a crew member who conducts the evacuation.

If that door was NOT locked, think of how often it would be opened (either purposefully or accidentally)... this thread is an endless debate of how it might be "possible" that a man lost his life that way-- well, if that door wasn't kept locked then this would happen more often.


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## RTOlson (Jul 9, 2009)

The side of the card that details the emergency exits and escape procedures does not mention that crew assistance is needed for any escape option. That said, the other side of the card has a section for "In An Emergency." This mentions seeking staff assistance and details the exits if no staff is available (the rear End Door isn't listed in this section).

In any case, I plan to contact Amtrak's Office of System Safety about this because it is unclear.

At this point, I believe I'll step aside and await the outcome of the investigation and the disclosure of their findings. This discussion has been informative, to a point, but I believe all things remain possible. I hope that investigators are seeking all possibilities, regardless of how improbable they may be.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 9, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> well, if that door wasn't kept locked then this would happen more often.


I think your missing my point. I'm not saying that the door isn't usually locked. I'm saying in this one instance, in this particular case, something went wrong and the door wasn't locked. That's the theory. Obviously, the more often that mistake occured, the more often it would result in a loss of life. In any case, I think we have made each other's opinions abundantly clear. We could go on for 5 more pages with childish "Yes it can", and "No it can'ts", but it wouldn't accomplish much other then wearing out our keyboards. So let us agree to disagree.


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## GG-1 (Jul 9, 2009)

Aloha

I am writing this as Moderator. The last dozen messages border on improper and unfounded speculation. If this does not stop I will close this thread until such time as an official explanation.

Since I became a moderator whatever time ago I have never seen so many different posters and messages be so far from proper discussion.

Enough already

Mahalo

Eric


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## amtkstn (Jul 9, 2009)

Well said, this topic is getting old and boring.


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## Ryan (Jul 9, 2009)

Perhaps the greatest webcomic ever is relevant here:


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 9, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Perhaps the greatest webcomic ever is relevant here:


Oh, I love XKCD.


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## GG-1 (Jul 9, 2009)

Death is not a joke, I was not joking, I am sorry that this was not understood the topic is closed.


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