# Sneaking in to Parlor Car



## Lizzie24601 (Jan 6, 2010)

Hello everyone,

I will be taking my first trip on the Coast Starlight next Monday, LA to SF. I have no desire to get a room or roomette, since it's a daytime trip and I'm not interested in isolating myself. But I would really like to experience hanging out in the PPC, since it sounds so nice!

So... how difficult is it for a coach passenger to go hang out on the PPC? Do they check tickets at the entrance? Or could I just lay low and be fine? Obviously I wouldn't attempt to eat any meals there or otherwise swipe amenities other than a book or two from the library, and as I'm traveling on a Monday I imagine it will be pretty empty...

Thanks!

-Liz-


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## yarrow (Jan 6, 2010)

during the afternoon wine tasting in the ppc, coach passengers are generally invited to attend (cost $10). that gives you an hour or so in the ppc. otherwise it would be quite risky i would think


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## pebbleworm (Jan 6, 2010)

No real need to sneak, just buy a ticket for the wine tasting and check it out. Also, roomettes are surprisingly cheap for that leg. Every time I've taken the Starlight from LA to SF it hasn't arrived until midnight, so a bed is nice to have. The library was about a dozen romance novels on my last trip.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Hello everyone,
> I will be taking my first trip on the Coast Starlight next Monday, LA to SF. I have no desire to get a room or roomette, since it's a daytime trip and I'm not interested in isolating myself. But I would really like to experience hanging out in the PPC, since it sounds so nice!
> 
> So... how difficult is it for a coach passenger to go hang out on the PPC? Do they check tickets at the entrance? Or could I just lay low and be fine? Obviously I wouldn't attempt to eat any meals there or otherwise swipe amenities other than a book or two from the library, and as I'm traveling on a Monday I imagine it will be pretty empty...
> ...


Both the above posts are pretty accurate. I'd suggest that if you don't want to spring for the roomette that you attend the wine and cheese tasting

as the previous poster suggested. Bring your own reading material, theres not much there for sure! The sightseer lounge will give you the same view and the diner on this car has pretty good food for Amtrak (the parlor car special menu is prepared in the diner/served from a steam table). I wouldnt risk getting put off by sneaking into any car on a train, you could ask the attendant if you can have a look when you board, most OBS on this train are pretty cool but they do try to rerserve the PPC for sleeper pax as they should! Have a good trip, give us a report!


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## railiner (Jan 6, 2010)

I would not have mentioned the train you are taking, as someone in the crew may be tipped off by your post. 

Personnaly, I would spring for a roomette, You don't have to hibernate in there, but during hectic times, it is a pleasure to have your own little "fortress of solitude".

If you add up the maximum cost of lunch and dinner in the diner...it pays almost half the additional cost. And if you were to find a companion to share the roomette with, the cost of the two lunches and dinners would just about pay for it. And if there is any significant delay enroute, you would really appreciate the room.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 6, 2010)

The attendants seem to know who is in fc and who is not. You will be asked to leave the first time you sneak in. At most you will last about 5 minutes. If you persist in sneaking in, you will risk being put off the train.

The wine tasting last about an hour. So for 10 dollars you get an hour in there. You will be seated at tables, not the comfortable swivel chairs. Keep in mind there is not much leg room at those tables.


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## ThayerATM (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Hello everyone,
> I will be taking my first trip on the Coast Starlight next Monday, LA to SF. I have no desire to get a room or roomette, since it's a daytime trip and I'm not interested in isolating myself. But I would really like to experience hanging out in the PPC, since it sounds so nice!
> 
> So... how difficult is it for a coach passenger to go hang out on the PPC? Do they check tickets at the entrance? Or could I just lay low and be fine? Obviously I wouldn't attempt to eat any meals there or otherwise swipe amenities other than a book or two from the library, and as I'm traveling on a Monday I imagine it will be pretty empty...
> ...


You'll probably have to be really careful about which end of the PPC car you enter from. If I remember correctly, all the sleeper cars are at one end of the train, and all the coach cars are at the other end. So if you're entering the PPC from the coach end, you're bound to be challenged, except for the wine tasting hour. Of course, if you're really agile, you could sneak out the side door of the coach, climb up and walk across the roof of the cars, then climb down and re-enter the train in a sleeper, then stroll into the PPC can unchallanged.

Just to make your life easier, why not spring for a roomette? You aren't obligated by law to stay in that roomette all the time. You would actually be allowed to hang out in the PPC, and even walk through the PPC, Diner, and into the coach section to mingle with your friends.

Sometimes the "fun" is worth not pinching the penny so hard. :lol:


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## Neil_M (Jan 6, 2010)

Steve4031 said:


> The attendants seem to know who is in fc and who is not. You will be asked to leave the first time you sneak in. At most you will last about 5 minutes. If you persist in sneaking in, you will risk being put off the train.
> The wine tasting last about an hour. So for 10 dollars you get an hour in there. You will be seated at tables, not the comfortable swivel chairs. Keep in mind there is not much leg room at those tables.


When I did the southbound CS in March there were so many takers for the tasting of the vin, they used the tables and the swivel seats.


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## sunchaser (Jan 6, 2010)

It would be much better if you spring for the roomette-looks like prices aren't too bad right now. If you choose to wait until you board, you might be able to get a lower price IF there is any available. You would want to speak to the Conductor about it. The price of the roomette includes your meals, beverages, dessert. (Not alcohol) When you are in the PPC, they have the coffee going, do you can have coffee, (& I think some other beverages too) or get coffee or juice in the sleeper car. Each sleeper also has a shower in case you may want to use it. And as other have mentioned, you don't have to stay in the roomette all the time. We spent alot of our time in the PPC! In fact, we never went to the diner.

If you don't want to pay for a roomette-spring for the wine tasting. It's a fun diversion.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2010)

If you want to use First Class Amenities then pay for them. It is unfair to those who do pay for First Class to have Coach passengers use or get the First Class extras for free. In my opinion!


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2010)

railiner said:


> I would not have mentioned the train you are taking, as someone in the crew may be tipped off by your post.


DANG........... I didn't know that AU-er's were so diligent. Actually ratting out a rider, who is just trying to see the parlor car.

"Sneaking In" probably would get you a polite, mild warning the first time. If you get "caught" again, then a stiffer rebuke.

I have to agree that springing for a roomette is the way to go. Hey, ya only live once. (well, most of us only live once, I think)

But if ya do manage to sneak in, and don't get caught. I certainly have no problem with that.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jan 6, 2010)

Well its a pretty risky move since if the dining car crew doesn't question you at the other end of the diner there tends to be a sign "Sleeper Car Passengers Only Beyond This Point". I know having a sign doesn't usually stop people, but its still there.

I echo what others say, if you want to be in the PPC that bad get a sleeper, or go the wine tasting.


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## ThayerATM (Jan 6, 2010)

rrdude said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > I would not have mentioned the train you are taking, as someone in the crew may be tipped off by your post.
> ...


Excuse me, rrdude,

Liz said "hang out" in the PPC. I infer from the use of that phrase that it involes just a little more than a peek inside the car.

And if YOU went into the PPC and all the seats were taken, you wouldn't have a problem with someone from coach poaching a seat that YOU had paid to use?


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## leemell (Jan 6, 2010)

rrdude said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > I would not have mentioned the train you are taking, as someone in the crew may be tipped off by your post.
> ...


I agree that you should pay for the use, just like the sleeper passengers do. As for ratting out, there are a number of Amtrak employees on this (AU) forum and they would be ethically bound to seeing that paying passengers are the ones using the car.


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2010)

ThayerATM said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Yeah, I'd be pissed off, and might say something, IF I knew. That's the whole point. IF you are willing to risk it, then fine. IF you are willing to pay the penalty. Just like life. IF you skip putting money in the parking meter, fine, just DON'T complain when u get a tickie.

Put another way: "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time". Many people are very uncomfortable "Drawing outside the lines". Just cutting across the grass, directly in front of a sign that reads "Please don't walk on the grass" is enough to keep a lot of folks on the sidewalk. And will me too, _most of the time._ But if I have to sprint across the grass to catch a train, I will! :lol:

Live a little, risk a little. Enjoy life. Push rules to the edges. Just be prepared.


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## ceblack (Jan 6, 2010)

Concur with the advice to get the roomette if you want to use the PPC. The cost of the two meals you'd get free is about $40 per person... so if you have two in the roomette the meals almost covering the cost of the upgrade ($95).

Wouldn't you rather ENJOY hanging out and relaxing in the PPC, rather than looking around wondering if at any moment someone is going to ask you to leave?


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2010)

leemell said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


If the passenger doesn't "take away" from a paying passenger, then "no harm, no foul" in my mind. Maybe my mind is a little warped from the 60's and 70's time period I grew up in.

You've got to realize that when you are the shady side of the "law" or the "rules" the person in that position is taking risks, and they need to be prepared to pay, whatever costs, if "caught".

I teach my kids to follow the rules and obey the law. But also teach them to challenge and question. "Do Not Enter" does not really mean "Do Not Enter". It means "if" you do enter, and do get caught, you better be ready to pay. But more than that, THINK about why the sign says "Do Not Enter" and the REASON they have that sign there, (safety, security, etc.,) before you just willy-nilly "enter"...........


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## ThayerATM (Jan 6, 2010)

leemell said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


That's good to know.

I've become increasingly annoyed with freeloaders. Especially those louts that think it's OK to sleep on the floor of the lounge car in the middle of the night because they say they can't sleep in their coach seats. They seem incapable of dealing with the circumstances of their life without imposing on the space of others. <_<


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## D T Nelson (Jan 6, 2010)

It's called "theft of services," and what you propose to do is about the same as sneaking into the movies without paying, or turnstile jumping on the subway. Do you do those things?

I'm not a lawyer but in the State of Washington I believe it would be considered theft in the third degree, a gross misdemeanor; a gross misdemeanor is punishable by up to one year in jail and a five thousand dollar fine. Of course, since you will be riding in California, the California Penal Code would apply to your theft, and I'm not sure how the California Penal Code treats theft of services. If you want to find out, go ahead and try it.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 6, 2010)

D T Nelson said:


> It's called "theft of services," and what you propose to do is about the same as sneaking into the movies without paying, or turnstile jumping on the subway. Do you do those things?
> I'm not a lawyer but in the State of Washington I believe it would be considered theft in the third degree, a gross misdemeanor; a gross misdemeanor is punishable by up to one year in jail and a five thousand dollar fine. Of course, since you will be riding in California, the California Penal Code will apply to your theft, and I'm not sure how the California Penal Code treats theft of services. If you want to find out, go ahead and try it.


In California "theft of services' is considered a profession! :lol: In most states, including mine, it's only OK for politicians to do this! But seriously folks,

ethics seem to be an old fashioned item that no longer is taught nor expected especially in business!


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## Steve4031 (Jan 6, 2010)

Its one thing to walk throught diner, and walk into the parlour car and look around, and then return to your coach seat. It is another to go in there and sit with the hopes of not getting caught You will be noticed, and the crew will ask you to leave. It won't even be a matter of an employeee looking at AU and ratting somebody out. The employees just know who belongs, and who does not. Other passengers might notice, and they have a right to say something too.

Its not worth the hassle. Pay for the rooomette, or go coach and take a quick look or pay for the wine tasting.


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## BeckysBarn (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Hello everyone,
> I will be taking my first trip on the Coast Starlight next Monday, LA to SF. I have no desire to get a room or roomette, since it's a daytime trip and I'm not interested in isolating myself. But I would really like to experience hanging out in the PPC, since it sounds so nice!
> 
> So... how difficult is it for a coach passenger to go hang out on the PPC? Do they check tickets at the entrance? Or could I just lay low and be fine? Obviously I wouldn't attempt to eat any meals there or otherwise swipe amenities other than a book or two from the library, and as I'm traveling on a Monday I imagine it will be pretty empty...
> ...


When I rode the CS in November, the attendant seemed to have a sixth sense (or really good memory) as to who was in the sleepers. She successfully challenged several coach passengers.


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## Lizzie24601 (Jan 6, 2010)

Hi everyone,

Haha, should have known this would be a topic to incite much debate.

I'm a solo traveler, and moreover a poverty-stricken one, so actually going first class isn't really an option for a non-overnight trip. But thank you for the info about the wine tasting!

I'll let y'all know if I succeed in my trespassing - or if I get keel-hauled into the Pacific.

-Liz-


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## Lizzie24601 (Jan 6, 2010)

Oh also! Is there wifi on the train?


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## sunchaser (Jan 6, 2010)

rrdude said:


> leemell said:
> 
> 
> > rrdude said:
> ...


The PPC is for Sleeping Car Passengers ONLY-except during wine tastings. So, folllowing this point, Sleeping Car Passengers are paying for the use of the PPC. Just like they are paying for their meals with the bedroom/roomette price. I have noticed that usually the low bucket for the CS bedrooms seem to be higher than say, the CZ.

So, then do you think it's ok on a plane to sneak from coach to first class, because it's "no harm, no foul"?

So if I want to 'light up' on a train to see if I can get away with it, you'd be ok with that?

Or if I want to wander downstairs in the diner to check out the kitchen? How about the Transdorm or the Loco?

Just wondering...

I don't think the staff would appreciate me testing the limits like that.

Do not Enter does not really mean "Do Not Enter"?

It means 'you may get in trouble'? Think about why the sign is there? How about just don't go in there, you aren't supposed to be there!

I agree with you, I think being raised in 60s-70s may have slightly warped you.  A lot of us were warped then & still are!  This is not meant as a personal attack or insult, so please don't take it that way.


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## Rob_C (Jan 6, 2010)

No Wifi on the Coast Starlight.

Please just pay the $10 for the visit to the lounge. I'll mail you a ten-er if you really can't afford it.

Enjoy your trip.


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## Lizzie24601 (Jan 6, 2010)

rrdude said:


> If the passenger doesn't "take away" from a paying passenger, then "no harm, no foul" in my mind. Maybe my mind is a little warped from the 60's and 70's time period I grew up in.
> You've got to realize that when you are the shady side of the "law" or the "rules" the person in that position is taking risks, and they need to be prepared to pay, whatever costs, if "caught".
> 
> I teach my kids to follow the rules and obey the law. But also teach them to challenge and question. "Do Not Enter" does not really mean "Do Not Enter". It means "if" you do enter, and do get caught, you better be ready to pay. But more than that, THINK about why the sign says "Do Not Enter" and the REASON they have that sign there, (safety, security, etc.,) before you just willy-nilly "enter"...........


Good for you! My parents taught me the same. Trespassing is an art form.


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## catblue (Jan 6, 2010)

That's good to know.

I've become increasingly annoyed with freeloaders. Especially those louts that think it's OK to sleep on the floor of the lounge car in the middle of the night because they say they can't sleep in their coach seats. They seem incapable of dealing with the circumstances of their life without imposing on the space of others. <_<

I don't want to hijack this thread but the comment about Coach passengers sleeping in the lounge car reminded me of our trip on the Empire Builder. There was a large group of us who were traveling together and we all had sleepers.

After everyone had cleared out of the Sightseer Lounge we met there to play cards one night.

Seems there was a man from coach who was in there to sleep. We did not even notice him at first. We were the only other people in there and we were not being overly loud but were laughing and having a good time. This man kept raising up and giving us dirty looks and grunts as if to say "Hey I'm trying to sleep here so quiet down."

We never saw a Amtrak employee in there.

I just thought it was funny because he should not of been in there to sleep or at least should not expect the lounge to be totally quiet.

We did try to be extra quiet when we had to go through the coach cars to get to our sleeper car when people were sleeping in coach.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2010)

Guest said:


> If you want to use First Class Amenities then pay for them. It is unfair to those who do pay for First Class to have Coach passengers use or get the First Class extras for free. In my opinion!


First, I agree fully with you.

However, I find it almost hypocritical in reading this thread, since we had a very similar debate here a while ago, and the almost universal opinion was the if a coach ticketed passenger knew someone in the sleepers, they have every right to "visit" and make use of sleeper class amenities (showering, sleeping, eating, etc). Basically, a sleeper passenger can "share" their amenities with whomever they pleased.


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## Rob_C (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Good for you! My parents taught me the same. Trespassing is an art form.


This statement just shows that you break rules for the thrill of it, and because you believe you're above everybody else. It's definitely NOT that you can't afford it. It is people like you that cause more rules to be made, and those rules to be enforced impacting everybody's freedoms. And why? Because you get your kicks off of it. It's disgusting, and it is classified as neurotic behavior. (See Winona Ryder).

Frankly, I hope the attendant on duty is on the ball that day and kicks your ass back to coach where you belong.

I pay good money to upgrade to sleeper every time I ride Amtrak and so do other people. The less *trash* people that ride the train, the more respectable a mode of transportation it will become and desirable to more people. So it behooves Amtrak to enforce its rules, clean up it's image and keep people from shacking in the lounge and sneaking into first class. Just try this on an airline sometime and see how far you get.

Pay your $10 and enjoy the PPC for an hour or two. Pay whatever and upgrade to sleeper. But if I catch you, I'll request you get put off the train.

*shakes head*


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## the_traveler (Jan 6, 2010)

Guest said:


> Basically, a sleeper passenger can "share" their amenities with whomever they pleased.


While that is very true (for the most part), I don't think that using the shower, getting coffee while walking thru or sleeping in the room that you are not named to the reservation is included in "sharing"! 

Visiting someone in the sleeper may be OK, but I personally say that staying in the room from 8 PM to 10 AM would not be - unless your name is on the reservation! And if you actually did know someone in the sleeper, and you were in coach and you were traveling together, I don't see why it wouldn't be. You both pay coach fare separately, then the accommodation fare for the room is the same for 1 or 2. Thus, there would be no additional cost.

And if you were questioned, you may say, "I'm waiting for my friend who's in room 6". And if they ask, "What is their name" and you answer "A-a-a-a, I'm not sure", I think they may question you a little more.

But to the OP, I would suggest (if that's all you can afford) buy a wine tasting ticket. That way you can legally be in the PPC for a hour or so. But I might also suggest that you consider getting a roomette - even for a daytime trip! That way you can be in the PPC for hours (you don't have to be in your room all the time), plus your 1-3 meals will be included in the cost! (And if you chose - even in the PPC!  )

On my many trips on the CS, there were *MANY* rooms sold between (say) LAX and OKJ only - and that is only daytime!


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## railiner (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Hi everyone,
> Haha, should have known this would be a topic to incite much debate.
> 
> I'm a solo traveler, and moreover a poverty-stricken one, so actually going first class isn't really an option for a non-overnight trip. But thank you for the info about the wine tasting!
> ...





Lizzie24601 said:


> Oh also! Is there wifi on the train?


Now that I have learned some more about you, I have another suggestion for you.

Since you profess to be "poverty-stricken", I think you would be much happier if you would travel on MegaBus or the like. Maybe you can score a dollar fare. And get free wifi.

Good luck.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Hi everyone,
> Haha, should have known this would be a topic to incite much debate.
> 
> I'm a solo traveler, and moreover a poverty-stricken one, so actually going first class isn't really an option for a non-overnight trip. But thank you for the info about the wine tasting!
> ...



Then pay for a coach ticket and stay out of the parlor car. If you didn't pay for it, you have absolutely no business in there.

The best views are between Oxnard and San Luis Obispo as the CS runs along the coast. If possible, get a seat on the left side of the train for this part of the route. The next interesting part is just after San Luis Obispo as the train passes over Cuesta Pass. The best views are on the right side. The wine tasting usually occurs as the train leaves San Luis Obispo, and this would give you an opportunity to get the best of both worlds.

I hope you enjoy your trip, but please be respectful of those who did pay for the right to use the parlor car.


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## the_traveler (Jan 6, 2010)

I have to agree with railiner - how can you be so "poverty-stricken" yet inquire about wi-fi on the train? :huh: Yes, I am cheap  but provided a choice between spending a few dollars on a roomette (to include the PPC and up to 3 meals for a day) or on wi-fi (if it were to be available), I myself would not chose the computer. I myself only took mine with me on my last trip because I needed it during my 4 week stay.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 6, 2010)

Good thing I traveled a few weeks ago. If I saw somebody from coach poaching those nice swivel chair seats, I would definitely help the attendant keep track of who belongs.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Good for you! My parents taught me the same. Trespassing is an art form.


You better hope you have a good personality. I would say your odds of getting through the dining car are 20% the LSA will wonder how someone in the sleepers already visited coach, and walked through without being seen the first time. Unless you are a motivational speaker the LSA has most likely heard them all, and won't let you through. I've never been in a PPC so I have no idea if that attendant will see you come in.

Not to mention how many people that will read this later and now be inspired to try and sneak in...


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## sunchaser (Jan 6, 2010)

The first time we rode the CS I got turned around & ended up in the transdorm-an employee noticed me & asked "may I help you?" I explained I was heading to the PPC, she directed me back the other way.

I have noticed the dining staff & PPC staff are usually paying pretty close attention. They observe which direction you come from on the train. You would have to go from coach, thru the diner then to the PPC-all without being noticed.

I still say do the tasting if you're old enough.

They will send you back to coach-but if you keep trying, they could kick you off the train.


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## ThayerATM (Jan 6, 2010)

Lizzie24601 said:


> Hello everyone,
> I will be taking my first trip on the Coast Starlight next Monday, LA to SF. I have no desire to get a room or roomette, since it's a daytime trip and I'm not interested in isolating myself. But I would really like to experience hanging out in the PPC, since it sounds so nice!
> 
> So... how difficult is it for a coach passenger to go hang out on the PPC? Do they check tickets at the entrance? Or could I just lay low and be fine? Obviously I wouldn't attempt to eat any meals there or otherwise swipe amenities other than a book or two from the library, and as I'm traveling on a Monday I imagine it will be pretty empty...
> ...


Are you beginning to get the idea?

As a coach passenger, you aren't welcome as a passenger in the PPC, by either Amtrak, or the sleeper passengers.

Come on in and join us for the wine tasting, for your $10. After that, go back to your car.

I dislike freeloaders.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 6, 2010)

Now that Amtrak is aware poachers may try to infiltrate the sacred grounds of the PPC, they are likely to post a colourfully dressed Guard bearing a Halberd on the Diner side entrance


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## Steve4031 (Jan 6, 2010)

I think the appropriate song here is "I beleive she cab fly . . . ". Why bother stopping the train to off load a free loader. After all there is a schedule to keep.


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2010)

I am truly shocked at the responses. "Take the bus", "you'll get thrown off the train", "I dislike freeloaders". I guess we are all perfect, and want our trip to be "perfect" and dislike anyone who attempts to intrude upon that.

We all know what the "right" thing to do is. But not everyone lives by those rules. (thank God).

The OP are correct in stating that the crews are pretty damned good at somehow "knowing" who is in a sleeper, and who is not.

And if you happen to sit next to me, and I find out that you "snuck in", then a fist-bump to ya! (as long as you aren't taking up a seat that "I" want........hahahaha

This forum is just like the real world, made up of all kinds of people. If we all thought the same, what a bore that would be.

Look at it this way. What's the WORST that could happen to you? I mean THE WORST. Ummm, the attendant would ask you to return to coach. Hey, if ya need the $10 for the wine tasting, email me. I'll gladly send it to ya.....


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## rrdude (Jan 6, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> The PPC is for Sleeping Car Passengers ONLY-except during wine tastings. So, folllowing this point, Sleeping Car Passengers are paying for the use of the PPC. Just like they are paying for their meals with the bedroom/roomette price. I have noticed that usually the low bucket for the CS bedrooms seem to be higher than say, the CZ.
> So, then do you think it's ok on a plane to sneak from coach to first class, because it's "no harm, no foul"? *Actually yes, but it doesn't work on a plane.*
> 
> So if I want to 'light up' on a train to see if I can get away with it, you'd be ok with that? *Again, yes. But If I catch you, I will tell you that you can't smoke on a train, and if you don't put it out, I'm gonna call the *****.*
> ...


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## RRrich (Jan 7, 2010)

Some folks think that rules should be followed and others don't. Kinda nice to know who is who.


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## ThayerATM (Jan 7, 2010)

RRrich said:


> Some folks think that rules should be followed and others don't. Kinda nice to know who is who.


I wish I'd said that!


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## GG-1 (Jan 7, 2010)

ThayerATM said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> > Some folks think that rules should be followed and others don't. Kinda nice to know who is who.
> ...


And then there are those that believe rules are for everyone else, but not them.

Aloha

I use the word "Aloha" because I like its multiple meanings, centered around caring for for those around us.


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## rrdude (Jan 7, 2010)

GG-1 said:


> ThayerATM said:
> 
> 
> > RRrich said:
> ...


.........And our country was founded by....Patriots who followed the "rules".....

Anyway, you guys are all right. Follow the rules. Toe the line. And WHATever you do, *don't draw outside* the lines.............

Brand me a miscreant, anarchist, dissenter, malcontent, voting Republican. (Hey! No politics here, it's against the rules!) I'll just crawl back into my box now....


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 7, 2010)

rrdude said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > ThayerATM said:
> ...


Take it easy dude.


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## The Metropolitan (Jan 7, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> I have to agree with railiner - how can you be so "poverty-stricken" yet inquire about wi-fi on the train? :huh:


MY EXACT THOUGHTS!!! I didn't even know one could use those two terms in the same sentence. Folks I see in my neck of the woods who would truly fit the term "poverty-stricken" would not be able to afford the computer. I make a reasonable wage, and certainly couldn't swing anything more than the most basic of Netbooks.

I'm one of those who doesn't really like the us/them concept of segregated lounge facilities for Sleeper folks, even though when travelling on LD trains, I usually will save up to upgrade to Sleeper (usually at lowest bucket with a friend, so the cost is only marginally above that of the included meals) so as to get better sleep and a shower. I even lounged in the PPC on an Emeryville to Portland trip last year and found it to be a very nice spot to enjoy the scenery. Had it not been there, I'd have been fine with simply riding in the Sightseer as I do on other trains.

I don't go around thinking I'm better than coach folks because I'm in a Sleeper, but your attempt to "get a comp upgrade" of sorts leads me to think that you do think yourself better than your fellow Coach riders. Personally, the attempt irritates me, but perhaps that's the double Libra in me that respects rules and civility.


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## sunchaser (Jan 7, 2010)

rrdude said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > ThayerATM said:
> ...


Yes, they followed the 'rules'. They appealed to the King repeatedly with their complaints and were ignored until finally, they declared their Independence. But even when the colonies did that many of them hoped to fix the situation and remain part of Britain.

I was actually thinking Democrat (no insult intended) rather than Republican.

Just about every Democrat I know tries to get around the rules, and feel the rules do not apply to them.

Especially if they get caught.

The point of this whole discussion is, should you have access to something you have not paid for.

The answer for most should be no.

If someone chooses to access or take advantage of something they have not paid for, then to me, it's the same as stealing.

The PPC is an amenity for those who have paid more to be in a sleeper, which includes other amenities-free coffee, juice, morning paper, water, access to a shower.

So all the people who have paid extra for these amenities should be ok with people coming in from elsewhere and helping themselves?

Or, what if it's open to all? Then I would expect the sleeper prices to drop & coach to go up, because it's an amenity to all!

On the trains that have first class or business class, should people from coach go in there too?

If Amtrak chooses to expand access to the PPC for those is coach, great. But, except for the wine tasting, that is not the case.

When we rode the CS, the PPC was great-because I liked the decor, and the old time 'feel' of the car. It was also good for hubby. He enjoyed it more than the Sightseer Car & spent more time out of the sleeper because of it.

He has said to me if the CZ had a Parlor Car, we would be on it alot more often. That's quite a compliment coming from him.

And no, I would not 'light up' on the train. If I'm on the train, we saved to go & it's a special occasion-I would not risk getting kicked off.....


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## caravanman (Jan 7, 2010)

Good for you Lizzy.. nice to have a breath of fresh air, and also stir up some of the err... "normal folk".

Ed


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 7, 2010)

Enjoying the various points of view, IMO this is an ethical,individual thing, one has to decide for themselves whether trying to get over is worth the risk! Generally the young tend to take more risks since that is the nature of life! Think it was Winston Churchill who said: "A young person who is not a liberal has no heart and an older person who is not a conservative has no brain!" :unsure:

My personal point of view is that stealing is stealing whether it's penny candy or Madoffs billions! I totally agree with the posters that say if you choose to violate the rules and get found out you have to be willing to pay the price and not whine about "it's not fair" or "what about so and so, they got away with it" etc. IMHO the worst thing in todays world is lack of personal responibility which must be taught, youth arent born with ethics or moral codes, they are a blank slate that need guidance and role models, once you are an adult youre own your own! This doesnt justify the sociopaths of whatever age that never have a clue! h34r:

Next time Im in a sleeper(which is all of next week) I'm not going to wonder if everyone I see snuck in to get coffee or a shower or to steal but if I suspect such I will notify the SCA or other crew since thats their job! Someone made a great point about would you try this on an airplane, people do and they end up in handcuffs and even in jail! Not saying this is appropraite for trains but as another poster said, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime"! I'll buy anyone a drink or meal if they need it, my philosophy is that we are all our brothers keeper when needed but not every minute of their lives!  The old saying that there is no free lunch seems right so I'll close with that!


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## sunchaser (Jan 7, 2010)

caravanman said:


> Good for you Lizzy.. nice to have a breath of fresh air, and also stir up some of the err... "normal folk".
> Ed


Normal.......hmmm........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It's a good thing I wasn't drinking my coffee when I read your comment, I would have ruined my laptop!

I was just wondering, are you currently having tea, or maybe something a bit stronger?

(I love your sense of humor!)


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## the_traveler (Jan 7, 2010)

caravanman said:


> and also stir up some of the err... "normal folk".


I resent being called "normal"! :angry: Anyone who knows me knows that I'm :wacko: !

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## singwith (Jan 7, 2010)

well, if you have friends in sleeper, you would get into PCC if your "friends" invite you there. Make some new friends when you go to dinner and ask them that you want to take a look PCC. It's not that hard to do it. 

Snuffy


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## Steve4031 (Jan 7, 2010)

singwith said:


> well, if you have friends in sleeper, you would get into PCC if your "friends" invite you there. Make some new friends when you go to dinner and ask them that you want to take a look PCC. It's not that hard to do it.
> Snuffy


Don't mooch, buy a ticket.


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## singwith (Jan 7, 2010)

Steve4031 said:


> singwith said:
> 
> 
> > well, if you have friends in sleeper, you would get into PCC if your "friends" invite you there. Make some new friends when you go to dinner and ask them that you want to take a look PCC. It's not that hard to do it.
> ...


In case you don't know that "invitation from friends" and "begging something from somebody" are two different things. and Just for "take a look" is no big deal but someone like you, always make a big deal out of nothing.


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## DET63 (Jan 7, 2010)

Just to add some more fuel to the fire . . .

If a CS operates without a PPC (due to maintenance or whatever), should (or do) sleeping-car passengers get cheaper tickets? (This might be hard to figure out due to the bucket system, which I don't really understand, except that it means some people pay more for the same seat or accommodation than do others.) If not, doesn't that really mean that the PPC is an "extra," and not really explicitly or implicitly paid for with the sleeping-car ticket? If this is the case, then should coach passengers really be denied access to something that even sleeping-car passengers might not be able to use, i.e., if the PPC was not on the train?

Now, given that sleeping-car passengers are allowed into the PPC if it is on the train, maybe this question is entirely moot.


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## zepherdude (Jan 7, 2010)

Once on the CZ, I was seated with a couple in the dining car. Small chat was exchanged and they asked me where I was sitting on the train. I replied a sleeper. They proceeded to tell me I must have been very rich to afford a sleeper. They even qouted me the advertised price on the web site. They asked me if they could go with me back to my roomette so they could get into a vacant room, to which I replied no. They made fun of me during the rest of the meal about being snooty and a snob. I told them to go screw themselves and left and advised the service manager.

The point is, one gets what one pays for. Nothing is free, you dont like it, too bad. I am not snooty or a snob, and if I cant pay for a service, I dont deserve it. Please don't sneak into the PPC, you did not pay for it and you should not get it.


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## ThayerATM (Jan 7, 2010)

zepherdude said:


> Once on the CZ, I was seated with a couple in the dining car. Small chat was exchanged and they asked me where I was sitting on the train. I replied a sleeper. They proceeded to tell me I must have been very rich to afford a sleeper. They even qouted me the advertised price on the web site. They asked me if they could go with me back to my roomette so they could get into a vacant room, to which I replied no. They made fun of me during the rest of the meal about being snooty and a snob. I told them to go screw themselves and left and advised the service manager.
> The point is, one gets what one pays for. Nothing is free, you dont like it, too bad. I am not snooty or a snob, and if I cant pay for a service, I dont deserve it. Please don't sneak into the PPC, you did not pay for it and you should not get it.


I think it would have been completely appropriate to tell the couple that it wasn't your call to make, and they'd get a definitive answer if they asked the conductor. We KNOW what the conductor would tell them. :lol:


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## rrdude (Jan 7, 2010)

zepherdude said:


> *I told them to go screw themselves and left and advised the service manager.*


And I wonder how many people they told about this "@#[email protected] guy they met on a recent Amtrak trip. How enjoyable you must have made the trip for them, not. (I Suspect you don't care)

As far as marketing purposes go, Amtrak ought to be doing "more" showing of the sleeper cars, when time and pax counts permit.

I"m not advocating "tours" to the coach cattle (*I'm* the snob, not you) all thru the day, but many people have only read about or seen something in a movie about the "mysterious sleeper cars" on trains.

It's almost the best dang thing about rail travel. The OP's idea of having a conductor or TA, or SCA show them the sleeper is obviously the best idea.


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## sunchaser (Jan 7, 2010)

Not to sidetrack the thread, but I have noticed that when I mention getting a bedroom on the train, whether here or talking to friends or relatives, the first thing they ask is "Isn't that awfully expensive?" Usually followed by them saying "I'm not rich!"

Yes, it can be. Sometimes it's not so bad.


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## JayPea (Jan 7, 2010)

DET63 said:


> If a CS operates without a PPC (due to maintenance or whatever), should (or do) sleeping-car passengers get cheaper tickets? (This might be hard to figure out due to the bucket system, which I don't really understand, except that it means some people pay more for the same seat or accommodation than do others.) If not, doesn't that really mean that the PPC is an "extra," and not really explicitly or implicitly paid for with the sleeping-car ticket? If this is the case, then should coach passengers really be denied access to something that even sleeping-car passengers might not be able to use, i.e., if the PPC was not on the train?
> Now, given that sleeping-car passengers are allowed into the PPC if it is on the train, maybe this question is entirely moot.



That situation did happen to me last August on the CS. The PPC was bad-ordered and instead we had a CCC in its place. I'm in the process of figuring out another CS trip just so I can take advantage of the PPC. (And I wouldn't pay for it either---I have plenty of AGR points!).

To add my $.02, if you want the privelege to enjoy the PPC, then PAY for it. I guess I'm one of these backward, old-fashioned guys who was raised on the belief that you are entitled to the service or product you paid for and nothing more. I admit I don't understand the whole "cheat to get something for nothing" and "I'm entitled to it whether I pay for it or not" mindset. It's theft of services, plain and simple.

On a side note: my August journey on the CS was the final leg in my Slidell Loophole trip. The previous leg had been a Chicago-Portland EB trip. As, I assume, most know, the Spokane-Portland section of the EB has no diner. And as the schedule calls for breakfast, the sleeping car passengers got a complimentary cold breakfast. We were given reserved seating in the Sightseer Lounge for this. And, as it just so happened, breakfast time came during the run through the Columbia Gorge. More than one group came from the coaches, saw the reserved seating for sleeper passengers, and were incensed that THEY didn't get reserved seating. Naturally, all the good seats on the left side of the train (facing the Columbia) were taken and the others were left with a spectacular view of rocks and dirt. The point was these folks thought they ought to be entitled to reserved seating too. (This trip was paid for fully by AGR points so in effect I didn't pay for it either. If they'd known that they'd REALLY have been upset!


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## The Metropolitan (Jan 7, 2010)

rrdude said:


> .........And our country was founded by....Patriots who followed the "rules".....
> Anyway, you guys are all right. Follow the rules. Toe the line. And WHATever you do, *don't draw outside* the lines.............
> 
> Brand me a miscreant, anarchist, dissenter, malcontent, voting Republican. (Hey! No politics here, it's against the rules!) I'll just crawl back into my box now....


If there is something tangible and good to be gained by not following the "rules," than by all means, a person should violate the rules for the ultimate good it will create. Racial Segregation and the Civil Rights Movement would be an ideal example wherein people enacted a positive change by acting in violation of "rules" that were in place in the land.

Can the same be said in this case?

I don't think so - it's simply one person's selfish crusade to violate rules so as to get something for nothing.

Violating rules purely for self-serving reasons certainly seems to be the the most common occurence these days.

From the "Rules are Made to be Broken Playbook:" If a person parks their car illegally in a transit bus stop because they don't care to follow the rules and are too lazy to walk from down the block, should they champion your inspirational logic of shadowing their noble forefathers as their defense when an elderly lady falls off the step of the bus, hits the pavement, and gets badly injured because the bus couldn't navigate over to the curb to let her off?

The sacrifices made by previous generations was done to improve our current way of life. Referring to these sacrifices as a justification for circumventing rules for purely self-serving reasons is really low.


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## pennyk (Jan 7, 2010)

The Metropolitan said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > .........And our country was founded by....Patriots who followed the "rules".....
> ...


Well said. Thank you.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 7, 2010)

singwith said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > singwith said:
> ...



When you wrote "friends" with the quotes around it, I took that to mean that you were looking to meet somebody on the trains so that you could make friends with them in order to be invited back into the first class area. Now if you are traveling on the train with friends, and some of them have a sleeper, then yes this is fine with me. In fact, you and your friend could call Amtrak ahead of time, and have a ticket agent link the reservations. Then you can enjoy all of the amenities that come with first class along with spending more time with your friend.

I actually did this. The person had already paid for coach, and since we new were going to want to hang out, I suggested the above tactic. It worked fine.


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## AAARGH! (Jan 8, 2010)

SCA also know who belong and who don't. I struck up a conversation with a younger couple traveling coach on the Silver Star during lunch. They were very interested in what a bedroom and roomette looked like. After lunch, I took them back to my sleeper and showed them my roomette and an empty bedroom.

As they and I passed our SCA, she challenged them as she knew they didn't belong there. When I explained I was jst showing them the layout and that they were not staying, she was fine. Common sense ruled.

Now if they were staying there, that would be different story.


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