# Sleeper 9712...Wow!



## IndyLions (Mar 17, 2021)

My wife and I are in Room A of car 9712 tonight (Richmond RVR-MIA).

All I can say is wow!

I will make plenty of posts, pictures, etc - but if you have any questions - ask ‘em quick for the next 20 hours while we’re on the train!


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 17, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> My wife and I are in Room A of car 9712 tonight (Richmond RVR-MIA).
> 
> All I can say is wow!
> 
> I will make plenty of posts, pictures, etc - but if you have any questions - ask ‘em quick for the next 20 hours while we’re on the train!


Cant wait till read your reports, and to ride one of the VL IIs myself!


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## IndyLions (Mar 17, 2021)

Of course - the “big deal” is that this is one of the new Viewliner II sleepers. The other “big deal” for us is that this is our first experience in a Viewliner full-size bedroom.

Here is the view walking in from 9711...the entrance to the H room...


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## IndyLions (Mar 18, 2021)

Note: because of a lack of control of photo orientation in the mobile app - it looks like I will do most of my posting after the trip is over.

If you have any specific requests (dimensions, etc) for the VLII Bedroom or Roomette, let me know. We’ll be in a VLII Roomette on the way back.


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## IndyLions (Mar 18, 2021)

As I mentioned in my last post - I’ll be posting lots of photos and a detailed review after the trip is over. 

Here is the condensed version. The VLII Bedroom is far from perfect - and some puzzling design choices were made.

BUT...bottom line this is by far the best sleeper experience available on Amtrak - all things considered. From a bedroom accommodations standpoint, the trip has been amazing.


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## oregon pioneer (Mar 18, 2021)

Can't wait to hear how the trip went, and see the photos, especially the roomette.

Any reports on when these cars will be on the LSL?


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## joelkfla (Mar 18, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Note: because of a lack of control of photo orientation in the mobile app - it looks like I will do most of my posting after the trip is over.
> 
> If you have any specific requests (dimensions, etc) for the VLII Bedroom or Roomette, let me know. We’ll be in a VLII Roomette on the way back.


As long as you asked -- How about height of the mattress top above the floor? Probably the same al VLI, but someone asked about it a while back and nobody had the answer.


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## Cal (Mar 18, 2021)

Is it up to par with European sleepers in your opinion? Or is it still lacking. 

Does the temperature control work well? 

What are some things that make it that much better than VI's?


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## IndyLions (Mar 23, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> As long as you asked -- How about height of the mattress top above the floor? Probably the same al VLI, but someone asked about it a while back and nobody had the answer.



Ok - this dimension is about 23.5” from mattress top to floor (lower bunk). 18.5” floor to couch cushion, and about 4” mattress thickness.


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## IndyLions (Mar 27, 2021)

My wife and I took dozens of photos, and we’ll sort through them and get them posted soon. It is quite the task - sorry for the delay.

While our trip was terrific overall - and the VLII’s were truly a “wow” - the trip also pointed out what a mess Amtrak is right now with their onboard product. I’d like to blame it on the pandemic but I know better.

We ran into some terrific employees. The Dining car attendant MIA-WAS really stood out. Same for the Sleeper attendant RVR-MIA and MIA-WAS. I hate the whole Contemporary Dining product and process - but frankly that was the smoothest part of the trip.

The Cafe attendant from RVR-MIA was appalling. He intentionally denied service to a bunch of Coach travelers because there was a chance he’d have to stay open beyond his closing time. Instead, he closed 10 minutes early.

The best thing I can say about another Cafe attendant was that he was surly. He had a scowl on his face the entire time.

But even when the employees were otherwise great - the sloppiness in general was disheartening. The Cafe cars were a disheveled mess. The VLII shower room (amazing!) was designed with a towel rack, but it went unused and a big pile of towels was just stacked on the bench instead - rendering the bench useless. And two other shower rooms were used as walker storage - despite the presence of plenty of open rooms that could have been temporarily used for that purpose instead. The attendants know which/when rooms will/will not be occupied, but they choose to render the shower room useless.

Of course, the crews were spread out all over the lounge cars. I know customers aren’t allowed to sit there because of Covid - that’s OK. But it doesn’t excuse the disheveled mess that results from the crew occupation. 

None of what I’m reporting is news - it’s been SOP for a long time. That doesn’t make it any less disheartening, or any less urgent to get addressed.


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## IndyLions (Mar 27, 2021)

Cal said:


> Is it up to par with European sleepers in your opinion? Or is it still lacking.


Sorry I didn’t answer these earlier.

I would say that they are on a par with European sleepers in a lot of ways, but lag behind in a couple of areas.

I have seen European sleepers with better bedroom layouts for sure, ones that can sleep three each in their own bed, where the beds all come down from the wall. I think that might be the best layout I’ve seen yet for a full bedroom with en-suite.

The other thing that the European sleepers have over our new sleepers is the door. We still haven’t figured out in America how to make a sleeper door that closes from the outside, or that has a modern locking system.




Cal said:


> Does the temperature control work well?



From a temperature control standpoint, when it was on it seemed to work well. However - at some point in the trip both southbound and northbound they turned off the temperature controls completely.

That may have been a conscious decision on their part based on outside air temperatures. Frankly, we didn’t really need the temperature controls while they were off. So the jury is still out on that one.



Cal said:


> What are some things that make it that much better than VI's?



Finally, in regards to what is better with the VLIIs vs the VLIs, 90% of it is just the newness. Let’s face it, the original Viewliners are tired – and need a complete overhaul. I do like the improvements made in the shower room on the new cars, and I’ll talk about the changes in the roomettes that I really like as well. But the overriding theme is that the original cars are desperate for a complete and utter overhaul.


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## Cal (Mar 27, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Sorry I didn’t answer these earlier.
> 
> I would say that they are on a par with European sleepers in a lot of ways, but lag behind in a couple of areas.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply!


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## joelkfla (Mar 28, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> But even when the employees were otherwise great - the sloppiness in general was disheartening. The Cafe cars were a disheveled mess. The VLII shower room (amazing!) was designed with a towel rack, but it went unused and a big pile of towels was just stacked on the bench instead - rendering the bench useless. And two other shower rooms were used as walker storage - despite the presence of plenty of open rooms that could have been temporarily used for that purpose instead. The attendants know which/when rooms will/will not be occupied, but they choose to render the shower room useless.


How many shower rooms are there per car?


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## Cal (Mar 28, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> How many shower rooms are there per car?


one


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## roadman3313 (Mar 28, 2021)

I rode in one of the VII's in a bedroom last month after riding a VI the day before and I agree you can certainly tell the difference. It isn't perfect but it is a step up due to it being new (vs. worn out). I am still sorting my photos as well (once I got back to work again all bet's were off!) but I look forward to seeing yours from your trip. 

As an aside, that is good to know about the thermometer. It did wonders when it was snowing outside but the display was off when I woke up in Florida. It kept the temperature fairly well though which is a nice improvement (when it was on). Glad to know it wasn't just me thinking I was experiencing "user error!"


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## Railspike (Mar 28, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> My wife and I took dozens of photos, and we’ll sort through them and get them posted soon. It is quite the task - sorry for the delay.
> 
> While our trip was terrific overall - and the VLII’s were truly a “wow” - the trip also pointed out what a mess Amtrak is right now with their onboard product. I’d like to blame it on the pandemic but I know better.
> 
> ...


If you had an issue let Amtrak Customer Service know about it. Good or bad. Even if you don't have a name they can find out who was on duty at any given time. There is a manager for each train who is responsible for its operation. I found this out when I filed a complaint a few years back and to my surprise, I received a phone call from the manager of the Sunset Limited who was based in Los Angeles. He wanted more specific details of the incident in question and assured me it would be dealt with. They can't fix what they don't know.


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## joelkfla (Mar 28, 2021)

Cal said:


> one


That's what I thought. So @IndyLions seems to be saying passengers in 2 sleepers had to go to another car for their shower?


IndyLions said:


> And two other shower rooms were used as walker storage - despite the presence of plenty of open rooms that could have been temporarily used for that purpose instead.


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## Cal (Mar 28, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> That's what I thought. So @IndyLions seems to be saying passengers in 2 sleepers had to go to another car for their shower?


Actually not 100% sure, I don’t think they have more than one though


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## PVD (Mar 28, 2021)

While I have seen things stashed in shower rooms on VL cars, I have never seen one where the SCA would not clear it out pretty quickly when asked.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 28, 2021)

Oh yes the good old day when you need to find someone to ask permission to take a shower. The disappearing sleeping attended has retired?


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 28, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Of course, the crews were spread out all over the lounge cars. I know customers aren’t allowed to sit there because of Covid - that’s OK. But it doesn’t excuse the disheveled mess that results from the crew occupation.



When I rode the Metoer the crew was spread out in the Viewliner diner.. including the tables where breakfast items were set up at.


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## PVD (Mar 29, 2021)

With the unavailability of checked baggage in more and more places, and the reluctance to stop passengers from carrying on more baggage than VL roomettes can handle comfortably, the stowage problem isn't going away anytime soon. But walkers pose a different problem, sort of can't discourage them, need them handy, and even the folding ones are awkward in a roomette...


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 29, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> When I rode the Metoer the crew was spread out in the Viewliner diner.. including the tables where breakfast items were set up at.


Some things never change!


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## BLNT (Mar 29, 2021)

They obviously just need a crew lounge/car - where they can all "hide" out of site. 

Looking forward to some interior room photos


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 29, 2021)

BLNT said:


> They obviously just need a crew lounge/car - where they can all "hide" out of site.
> 
> Looking forward to some interior room photos


They have one on the Superliner Transdorms but still hang out in the Diner!


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## BLNT (Mar 29, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> They have one on the Superliner Transdorms but still hang out in the Diner!



Interesting... and apparently the powers that be don't mind how that appears. I'm only familiar with the Auto Train though, having not been on anything else.


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## Cal (Mar 29, 2021)

They hang out in the diner a lot, a lot. You can always find two-four employees lounging there


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## Charles785 (Mar 29, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> My wife and I took dozens of photos, and we’ll sort through them and get them posted soon. It is quite the task - sorry for the delay.
> 
> While our trip was terrific overall - and the VLII’s were truly a “wow” - the trip also pointed out what a mess Amtrak is right now with their onboard product. I’d like to blame it on the pandemic but I know better.
> 
> ...



So, why are cafe attendants like Indy Lions describes above allowed to continue working in customer service? Do the labor unions hamstring Amtrak's hands in firing such surly performers? 

I'm assuming the reason I never seem to run into waiters and waitresses with attitude problems in 99.99% of restaurants and bars I patronixze is that the owners and managers are free to terminate employees with negative attitudes at will- those folks who should never have been in customer service to begin with.

Will the labor unions that Amtrak deals with go to the mat defending even those who are totally miscast for their jobs?


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 29, 2021)

Charles785 said:


> So, why are cafe attendants like Indy Lions describes above allowed to continue working in customer service? Do the labor unions hamstring Amtrak's hands in firing such surly performers?
> 
> I'm assuming the reason I never seem to run into waiters and waitresses with attitude problems in 99.99% of restaurants and bars I patronixze is that the owners and managers are free to terminate employees with negative attitudes at will- those folks who should never have been in customer service to begin with.
> 
> Will the labor unions that Amtrak deals with go to the mat defending even those who are totally miscast for their jobs?



In short... yes. The sleeping car attendant who raped a passenger on the empire builder had been fired for selling pornography on the job and the union got him rehired. 

So yeah... closing a cafe car early ain’t gonna get anybody fired. 

Woman sues Amtrak after she was raped in sleeping cabin


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## PVD (Mar 29, 2021)

How do you make a case for discipline or retraining when you don't have any credible form of line supervision?


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## Cal (Mar 29, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> In short... yes. The sleeping car attendant who raped a passenger on the empire builder had been fired for selling pornography on the job and the union got him rehired.
> 
> So yeah... closing a cafe car early ain’t gonna get anybody fired.
> 
> Woman sues Amtrak after she was raped in sleeping cabin


I’m sorry, what?


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 29, 2021)

Charles785 said:


> Will the labor unions that Amtrak deals with go to the mat defending even those who are totally miscast for their jobs?


By law unions are required to defend every member regardless of the circumstances. If this were relaxed to exclude bad faith actions it might create a healthier environment that still protects workers from unfair labor practices.



Cal said:


> I’m sorry, what?


Although the article is true and worth discussing the way it is brought up here is jarring and seems to be an appeal to raw emotion rather than logic and reason.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 29, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Although the article is true and worth discussing the way it is brought up here is jarring and seems to be an appeal to raw emotion rather than logic and reason.



I didn’t mean it in that way. I just meant that if the union can get someone like that rehired, why would anyone be worried about getting fired for closing a cafe car 10 minutes early?

I mean isn’t that why Amtrak staff behaves the way they do?


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## PVD (Mar 29, 2021)

If you don't make a good faith to represent an employee, you are subject to an "unfair labor practice" charge by the employee. You are even required to represent the freeloaders who aren't members, but receive the benefits of their representation.


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2021)

It's just like our legal system...attorneys are supposed to give their clients a 'vigorous defense', even if they believe their client is guilty as charged....


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## OBS (Mar 30, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn’t mean it in that way. I just meant that if the union can get someone like that rehired, why would anyone be worried about getting fired for closing a cafe car 10 minutes early?
> 
> I mean isn’t that why Amtrak staff behaves the way they do?


The reason some staff behave poorly is that they can get away with it without consequences. This means there is no accountability of the employee by management. There are many disciplinary steps before terminating an employee. If none of these steps are taken towards employees, the behavior continues...


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## PaTrainFan (Mar 30, 2021)

OBS said:


> The reason some staff behave poorly is that they can get away with it without consequences. This means there is no accountability of the employee by management. There are many disciplinary steps before terminating an employee. If none of these steps are taken towards employees, the behavior continues...



Yet flight attendants are unionized and you rarely hear of poor behavior or bad service.


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## PVD (Mar 30, 2021)

The point is, you set expectations, create a process for training and staff development, and adequately supervise and monitor, and counsel or retrain early and quickly. You don't do nothing as management and then whine about it blaming someone or something else for the problem.


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## MilwaukeeRoadLover (Mar 30, 2021)

BLNT said:


> They obviously just need a crew lounge/car - where they can all "hide" out of site.
> 
> Looking forward to some interior room photos


Like the old caboose?


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## Barb Stout (Mar 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> They hang out in the diner a lot, a lot. You can always find two-four employees lounging there


When there are employees lounging in the diner, does that mean they are on an official break or just need to put their bodies somewhere when they're not actively working on some issue? In other words, if a passenger needs something, maybe going to the dining car is a surefire way of finding someone to help with whatever you need? A clearinghouse, if you will?


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## OBS (Mar 30, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Yet flight attendants are unionized and you rarely hear of poor behavior or bad service.


Absolutely. Because they are held accountable by Airline management.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 30, 2021)

PVD said:


> How do you make a case for discipline or retraining when you don't have any credible form of line supervision?





PaTrainFan said:


> Yet flight attendants are unionized and you rarely hear of poor behavior or bad service.





OBS said:


> Absolutely. Because they are held accountable by Airline management.


I think the biggest difference between long haul flying and riding Amtrak is how the role of a purser differs from that of an LSA. On long haul flights the purser is there to coordinate tasks, maintain service standards, and record/resolve customer issues, whereas on Amtrak the LSA seems to be little more than a glorified cashier and stock tracker. If Amtrak had a fully supported purser position it might be completely different experience for their customers. It would still take months or even years to slowly weed out the bad apples but in theory each trip would be a little better than the last.


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## PVD (Mar 30, 2021)

Didn't they have a "chief" on LD at one time? OBS will not be supervising T&E, that is not changing, and AMTRAK keeps trying to eliminate positions not add them on LD/non corridor day trains. As worthwhile as it seems to us, it runs counter to the current pattern.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 30, 2021)

PVD said:


> Didn't they have a "chief" on LD at one time? OBS will not be supervising T&E, that is not changing, and AMTRAK keeps trying to eliminate positions not add them on LD/non corridor day trains. As worthwhile as it seems to us, it runs counter to the current pattern.


I was Surprised to see a Chef in the CCC on #422 today since there is still only the 1 LSA working the Diner/ Cafe Car for the Heat and Eat Meals.

The SCA is delivering the Meals to the Passengers in the #422 Sleeper ( rear of the Train)that dont want to walk to the CCC for Meals. There are only 4 tables open in the Diner part of the Car with the rest roped off.There is No Cafe seating available( and Sleeper Passengers cant sit in the Full Coaches!!!)


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## PVD (Mar 30, 2021)

if the LSA is responsible for both sides, it's still 2 jobs as opposed to 2 LSA. There is still no one free to walk the train.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> I was Surprised to see a Chef in the CCC on #422 today since there is still only the 1 LSA working the Diner/ Cafe Car for the Heat and Eat Meals.
> 
> The SCA is delivering the Meals to the Passengers in the #422 Sleeper ( rear of the Train)that dont want to walk to the CCC for Meals. There are only 4 tables open in the Diner part of the Car with the rest roped off.There is No Cafe seating available( and Sleeper Passengers cant sit in the Full Coaches!!!)



I believe all of the superliner trains have both an upstairs LSA and a downstairs “chef” - which means there is no reason that the flex meals make sense since you could still do traditional dining car food.



PVD said:


> if the LSA is responsible for both sides, it's still 2 jobs as opposed to 2 LSA. There is still no one free to walk the train.



With flex dining the lsa does not walk the train. The SCA takes your order and delivers your food. (That was my personal experience and my understanding of how it’s supposed to work on paper)


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## PVD (Mar 30, 2021)

That's exactly my point. Elevating the LSA in some fashion doesn't have any effect on seeing what's going on, because they are tethered to a location.


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## railiner (Mar 30, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Yet flight attendants are unionized and you rarely hear of poor behavior or bad service.


It goes deeper than whatever oversight occurs or doesn't. It goes back to the corporate culture, which is ingrained from generation to generation. Some Amtrak employees have a sense of 'entitlement', as in the government owes them a living, and will pay them, regardless of how customer's are treated...
And they will drag down other's tired of carrying their load for them. Of course there are always the 'outliers', who will strive to rise above, and deliver superior service, even if it means being ostrasized by the slacker's... JMHO


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 30, 2021)

railiner said:


> It goes deeper than whatever oversight occurs or doesn't. It goes back to the corporate culture, which is ingrained from generation to generation. Some Amtrak employees have a sense of 'entitlement', as in the government owes them a living, and will pay them, regardless of how customer's are treated...
> And they will drag down other's tired of carrying their load for them. Of course there are always the 'outliers', who will strive to rise above, and deliver superior service, even if it means being ostrasized by the slacker's... JMHO


Unfortunately the young "eager beavers" New Hires are on Furlough and lots of the Old Guard set in their ways are working the LD Routes right now!

I'm fortunate to have really good OBS on today's #22/422 to Dallas! 

Hope tomorrow's #21/421 is the same!


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## IndyLions (Apr 3, 2021)

Since my trip - some really terrific YouTube videos have been released which show the full features of the VLII sleeper in all its glory. But I'll follow through with some photos I took on the VLII.

Let's start with a huge positive - the *VLII Public Shower Room*. Unquestionably, the nicest, most spacious shower room Amtrak has ever designed.

Let me state up front - I did a poor job of coming up with a photo that truly demonstrates how spacious the room actually is. So instead, I'll focus on some individual features which are really great.

Let's start with its open air feel - it's not cramped and claustrophobic



The room is very bright, with large frosted windows. The tall ceilings also help with the feeling of openness. This first picture was obviously taken from inside the shower itself, and this next one was taken from the dressing area immediately outside the shower illustrating those high ceilings...




Inside the shower, there is a small bench - very practical for the act of showering on a moving train...




There is also a very nice bench for dressing/undressing in the outer area - unfortunately on this trip it was covered with a bag of towels...




That didn't need to be the case - since the shower room has been designed with a towel rack (below). Will the crew ever use it?




As you can also see from the above, there is a counter space and large mirror featured as well. When you are done and cleaning up - there is a large built-in trash depository and a linen chute.




Overall - this is an absolute A+ !!!!!


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## IndyLions (Apr 3, 2021)

...and for those interested in the dimensions of the Public Shower itself - here is a drawing


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 3, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> That didn't need to be the case - since the shower room has been designed with a towel rack (below). Will the crew ever use it?



The idea of having space for clean towels to be stored is a worthy idea. But, is it practical? Is it more sanitary to keep the towels in a closed bag? Maybe a better idea would provide each sleeping accommodation their own set of bath towels, just as is done with face clothes and hand towels.


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## tricia (Apr 3, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> The idea of having space for clean towels to be stored is a worthy idea. But, is it practical? Is it more sanitary to keep the towels in a closed bag? Maybe a better idea would provide each sleeping accommodation their own set of bath towels, just as is done with face clothes and hand towels.


Perhaps wrap the towels individually, like they've been doing with blankets?


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## IndyLions (Apr 3, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> The idea of having space for clean towels to be stored is a worthy idea. But, is it practical? Is it more sanitary to keep the towels in a closed bag? Maybe a better idea would provide each sleeping accommodation their own set of bath towels, just as is done with face clothes and hand towels.





tricia said:


> Perhaps wrap the towels individually, like they've been doing with blankets?



So you like your blanket in plastic - but are okay with the sheet already made - and the pillows out and ready waiting on the cushions? Do you ask hotels to give you your linens in plastic so you can make them up yourself? What about cloth napkins at nice restaurants - do you ask for the paper napkins and plastic silverware sealed in plastic from a factory in China instead? Where does it stop?


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## IndyLions (Apr 3, 2021)

The next feature I'm going to highlight in the VLIIs is in the Roomette.

This one is controversial, and is one of the most divided topics regarding sleepers that we have. That is the presence (or absence) of a toilet in the Roomette. One camp is grossed out by the thought of a non-enclosed toilet in the roomette, and the other half is equally as distressed about NOT having an in-room toilet - enclosed or not. *Please - let's not debate the issue here - I think we can all agree that this is a divided issue with two camps.*

Traditionally, most Heritage equipment featured toilets in-room, no matter how small. The double-level Superliners broke that trend and eliminated toilets from roomettes, while the original Viewliners followed the Heritage approach by featuring them. As most know by now, the VLII's eliminated the in-room toilet in the roomette.

For years now - VLII room diagrams have been published. Many from the "pro-Toilet" side have howled that Amtrak is simply wasting the space where the toilet used to be - so there is no customer benefit to its elimination. From looking at those diagrams they appear to be right. However - when you actually use a VLII roomette and see it in three dimensions, you have a better understanding of how Amtrak is using that space. While I don't expect it to change anyone's mind - I think it is enlightening.

Here is the best "overall" shot that I have of the area in question.




There are a few things to note. The area where the toilet used to be has always doubled as a kind of "stairway" to the upper bunk in the evening. The middle "step" (the one that the fold-down sink rests on) has been extended out - since they no longer have to account for someone sitting on the toilet. This makes it much more useful as a shelf during the day.




Second - they've added another (recessed) storage area between the bottom two steps - I'll call it a "cubby". It is 9 ¼"W x 5 ¾"H x 3"D. What is its purpose? I'm not entirely sure. Maybe it could be used as a place to store your cell phone, wallet and other personal items. It seems about the ideal size to rest an iPad mini - but I didn't try that...




Finally - the biggest deal of all (in my opinion). The area below the bottom step, where the toilet used to be - is now completely open and can be used for storage.

Now - I was a bit of a nincompoop - and took well over 100 photos and somehow didn't get a great shot of this new storage area - but at least I measured it...



Standard carry-on luggage size is 14" W x 9" H x 22" D. On first glance at the area's dimensions, it appears "not deep enough". In practice - if a piece of luggage extends out 3" or so - that is absolutely no problem.

In my opinion, this is the best result yet of removing the toilets from the Roomette. The upper storage area in the Viewliner Roomettes is nice and spacious - but if you pack like my wife and me - it can be a challenge to lift our luggage up there. Being able to store at least one heavy bag at floor level is a great feature.

While the "toilet" vs "no toilet" debate will rage on - at least we now have a full understanding of how Amtrak decided to utilize that space.


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## tricia (Apr 4, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> So you like your blanket in plastic - but are okay with the sheet already made - and the pillows out and ready waiting on the cushions? Do you ask hotels to give you your linens in plastic so you can make them up yourself? What about cloth napkins at nice restaurants - do you ask for the paper napkins and plastic silverware sealed in plastic from a factory in China instead? Where does it stop?



Actually, I DON'T like my blanket wrapped in plastic--way too much plastic in our lives, and wrapping the blanket is pointless, since it's only used in private space.

Given that the geniuses at Amtrak's design dept designed a multiple-towel holder for a common space (shower used by multiple passengers), wrapping the towels individually is the only reasonably hygenic solution I've thought of. FWIW, I'd prefer that the wrapping be paper.


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## IndyLions (Apr 4, 2021)

*Viewliner II Roomette Step Height*

And for those wondering about the height of each step on the way up to the bunk (or to stow luggage above the hall) - here is a diagram...


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## IndyLions (Apr 4, 2021)

tricia said:


> Actually, I DON'T like my blanket wrapped in plastic--way too much plastic in our lives, and wrapping the blanket is pointless, since it's only used in private space.
> 
> Given that the geniuses at Amtrak's design dept designed a multiple-towel holder for a common space (shower used by multiple passengers), wrapping the towels individually is the only reasonably hygenic solution I've thought of. FWIW, I'd prefer that the wrapping be paper.



Fair enough - we'll agree to disagree on this one. I feel like there is a limited amount of control we have when we go out in public regarding our exposure to germs (beyond the normal prudent precautions of hand washing, etc.) - and frankly that's what our immune systems are for. If I have a compromised immune system - I'm probably not going to use public spaces and I'll apply to Amtrak for an H Room.

But I understand that others have more concerns than I do - and their concerns are no less legitimate than my lack of concern.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 4, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> So you like your blanket in plastic - but are okay with the sheet already made - and the pillows out and ready waiting on the cushions? Do you ask hotels to give you your linens in plastic so you can make them up yourself? What about cloth napkins at nice restaurants - do you ask for the paper napkins and plastic silverware sealed in plastic from a factory in China instead? Where does it stop?


Yeah seal the blanket in plastic but put the uncovered pillow, _upon which you place your face_, on the seat where every passenger before you has put their bare feet, socks, shoes and butts!


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## cocojacoby (Apr 4, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> The next feature I'm going to highlight in the VLIIs is in the Roomette.
> 
> This one is controversial, and is one of the most divided topics regarding sleepers that we have. That is the presence (or absence) of a toilet in the Roomette. One camp is grossed out by the thought of a non-enclosed toilet in the roomette, and the other half is equally as distressed about NOT having an in-room toilet - enclosed or not. *Please - let's not debate the issue here - I think we can all agree that this is a divided issue with two camps.*
> 
> ...



Whenever my wife and I share a roomette, one the the biggest hassles is the lack of open floor space for two people to stand. I was hoping that with the removal of the toilet the floor area would be opened up a bit, maybe utilizing some type of fold down stairs. Also the compartment next to the seat (opposite the toilet) which holds the toilet paper could have been scaled back to open the floor up a bit there too.

Two people need a little more space to stand and dress and brush their teeth, etc.

The upper luggage cubby would work better if they got rid of the bar that partially blocks access and maybe just go with a small lip in front. That would make it a little easier to get your luggage off the floor and over the aisle.

Anything to open up the floor space for maneuvering around the tiny room would help.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 4, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> The area below the bottom step, where the toilet used to be - is now completely open and can be used for storage.





IndyLions said:


> they've added another (recessed) storage area between the bottom two steps - I'll call it a "cubby". It is 9 ¼"W x 5 ¾"H x 3"D. What is its purpose? I'm not entirely sure. Maybe it could be used as a place to store your cell phone, wallet and other personal items.





IndyLions said:


> The middle "step" (the one that the fold-down sink rests on) has been extended out - since they no longer have to account for someone sitting on the toilet. This makes it much more useful as a shelf during the day.



Thanks for the descriptions and your photos! I like all of these improvements. I am sure that I would find them useful.


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## Mailliw (Apr 4, 2021)

Fort what it's worth when I've stayed in hotels with shared bathrooms they put your towels in your room and you take them with you to the bathroom.


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## IndyLions (Apr 4, 2021)

The next much improved feature - the fold out table. And this is an improvement that (like the shower) can be enjoyed by all passengers in the VLII Sleeper. 

Many of us have “experienced” the tables in the Superliners and Viewliner I’s. Yes - they are functional - but boy are they frustrating. They are heavy, clunky, noisy - and usually not very level. 

The new tables are just about everything the old ones are not.





One thing you might notice (other than a color change) - is that when they are stowed away they make not a sound. No rattles.

They are not made out of metal - but from a very dense manufactured wood product. The outside appears to be laminated - but gives the impression of being very well laminated indeed. It does NOT give the impression of your typical RV or manufactured housing construction - but far better than that. 




Embedded under the surface are hidden magnets - so that when the table “wings” are folded in, they stay put and don’t rattle. That’s a nice touch. And my wife and I had some fun watching the metal silverware we brought along being pulled towards and sticking to the magnet positions during meal times.




And when fully folded out - the table seems larger but not overly so - and makes not a single rattle and is dead-flat level. All major improvements over the previous generation for sure. One last improvement - the adjacent cupholders are deeper - which means the ubiquitous water bottles will actually stay put and not bounce away at the first rail induced jolt.




Will they hold up? Who knows - but even if they have to replace them every few years the improvement is worth it in my opinion. And it’s just a feeling - but after using them for two days I think they are going to hold up just fine.

And did I measure the table? Nope. After dozens of measurements - that is one I missed. Doh!

Just like the shower, the table is another A+ for an improved design. There are plenty more positives with the VLII's - just maybe not any more A+ grades...we'll have to see.


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## Cal (Apr 4, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> The next much improved feature - the fold out table. And this is an improvement that (like the shower) can be enjoyed by all passengers in the VLII Sleeper.
> 
> Many of us have “experienced” the tables in the Superliners and Viewliner I’s. Yes - they are functional - but boy are they frustrating. They are heavy, clunky, noisy - and usually not very level.
> 
> ...


Gah, we need some of these improvements on the Superliners and VI's!


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## AFS1970 (Apr 4, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> *Please - let's not debate the issue here - I think we can all agree that this is a divided issue with two camps.*



Of course not, that's for the dining thread anyway.


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## AG1 (Apr 4, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> The upper luggage cubby would work better if they got rid of the bar that partially blocks access and maybe just go with a small lip in front. That would make it a little easier to get your luggage off the floor and over the aisle.


The bar is the handhold for going up the steps to the upper bunk. Coming down I grab it with both hands !


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## cocojacoby (Apr 5, 2021)

AG1 said:


> The bar is the handhold for going up the steps to the upper bunk. Coming down I grab it with both hands !



We have never used it like that. It looks more like a "safety bar" to hold in your luggage. I am sure there is another way to provide hand holds if needed. Blocking the storage area and making the opening smaller doesn't make sense especially since it is not that easy to get your luggage up there anyway. Providing more suitable handles for climbing would be an easy task.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 5, 2021)

This has become an increasingly informative thread for the uninitiated. I mainly ride the Western routes, so it may be years before I am able to see this firsthand, but it's nice to read a positive review about new LD hardware! Now if we can just get some Superliner replacements ordered I might be able to ride a new one before I die.


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## oregon pioneer (Apr 5, 2021)

I know this is probably addressed in some other thread... but is there away to know if you will get the new sleeper or the old on a given trip? I'll probably be taking the LSL next winter...


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## IndyLions (Apr 5, 2021)

oregon pioneer said:


> I know this is probably addressed in some other thread... but is there away to know if you will get the new sleeper or the old on a given trip? I'll probably be taking the LSL next winter...



No way of knowing without inside information as to the rollout plans for the new sleepers.

If somebody has better information, hopefully they will chime in.


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## railiner (Apr 5, 2021)

What would be better...to have all the new sleepers dedicated to particular trains, and be able to market them that way, or just mix them amongst all the trains, with no assurances of type sold? The latter is probably easier...


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## jis (Apr 5, 2021)

railiner said:


> What would be better...to have all the new sleepers dedicated to particular trains, and be able to market them that way, or just mix them amongst all the trains, with no assurances of type sold? The latter is probably easier...


The latter is what they are certainly doing right now. But it suffers from the issue of the number of roomettes available being different by one, that cannot be finagled in the reservation system fully until the actual consist for the day is known. That may be why they do the x12 car only as VII now, though there have been days when both x11 and x12 were VIIs on the Silver.

As usual we will know only when it actually happens for sure.


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## Barb Stout (Apr 6, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Whenever my wife and I share a roomette, one the the biggest hassles is the lack of open floor space for two people to stand. I was hoping that with the removal of the toilet the floor area would be opened up a bit, maybe utilizing some type of fold down stairs. Also the compartment next to the seat (opposite the toilet) which holds the toilet paper could have been scaled back to open the floor up a bit there too.


Well, there have to be steps to get up to the upper bed regardless if one of the steps is also a toilet.


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## jruff001 (Apr 6, 2021)

Great report, IndyLions! Thanks for taking the time to take & post the pics and descriptions. I can't wait to ride one.


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## Cal (Apr 6, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Great report, IndyLions! Thanks for taking the time to take & post the pics and descriptions. I can't wait to ride one.


I won't be riding one for a long time! I'm here in SoCal, and so getting on an eastern route conveniently is a hassle as I'd rather avoid flying domestically.


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## jis (Apr 7, 2021)

Cal said:


> I won't be riding one for a long time! I'm here in SoCal, and so getting on an eastern route conveniently is a hassle as I'd rather avoid flying domestically.


The Sunset Limited to New Orleans or the Southwest Chief to Chicago will get you to one.


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## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

jis said:


> The Sunset Limited to New Orleans or the Southwest Chief to Chicago will get you to one.


However, Amtrak prices can be pretty high... So it'd be easier and much less expensive to fly instead of taking one of those routes.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 7, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> Well, there have to be steps to get up to the upper bed regardless if one of the steps is also a toilet.



That's not really true. The bedrooms don't have steps - they have ladders instead. And I've seen some pretty clever European train bedrooms that have steps that fold out from the wall like a Murphy Ladder which would really save space.

Amtrak could have easily put in a couple of steps that fold down from the wall where the toilet was so during the day the floor area would be open.

Murphy Ladder:

View attachment download.webm


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## Cal (Apr 7, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> That's not really true. The bedrooms don't have steps - they have ladders instead. And I've seen some pretty clever European train bedrooms that have steps that fold out from the wall like a Murphy Ladder which would really save space.
> 
> Murphy Ladder:
> 
> ...


I've seen those in European sleepers as well, great use of space!


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Now let's take a look at the accommodation of which I have the least experience - the *VLII* version of the *Viewliner Bedroom*. On our southbound itinerary, my wife and I splurged on this room. We are in our mid-fifties and in good health - so roomettes for us are no problem. But every once in a while it is fun to splurge for something more than the minimum.

Because of limited experience, I can't provide first-hand comparison's between VLI & VLII with the Bedroom. But as far as I can tell, there were very few changes.

For two people - the Bedroom is large and spacious - with two large windows for an open air feel and great sightseeing. As with all Amtrak full-sized Bedrooms, there is a large couch perpendicular to the direction of travel, and single chair facing it. 




Like the VLI (but unlike Superliners), the chair is mounted to the floor, but can be adjusted somewhat and placed in a "stowed" position when desired. 




Stowing the chair is not required to access the bathroom, but it does provide additional clearance. It also provides additional clearance if both Rooms A & B are purchased and the adjoining door is in use. 




There is a private en suite for a toilet and a shower. 




There is a storage shelf for large towels and storage for shampoo and soap above the full-sized toilet paper dispenser - which comes with a cover that is effective at keeping the toilet paper from getting wet during shower use. The floor of the bathroom contains a shower drain, and the toilet can double as a shower seat. 




The shower head is of good quality - manufactured by Delta Faucet. The shower worked very well, with hot water showing up quickly. After drying myself I used the large towel to wipe down the room. After a few short minutes the room was basically dry - and after 25 minutes there was no evidence a shower had been taken. But you will need to wipe down the room to get that result.

(Continued next post...)


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

*VLII Bedroom (continued)*

But what about washing your hands? For that - you'll need to use the sink that's located outside of the en suite.




The sink area features a large mirror, along with a towel holder, light controls and a Duplex 120V outlet. The faucet controls are the "push down" ones, and worked fairly well with a minimum of oversplash. There is a permanently mounted soap dispenser. There also is a removable sink trap provided, which helps prevent clogging.




Surrounding the sink is a tiny counter space, and above and left of the sink area is a storage cabinet.





Across from the sink and between the couch and the hallway is a small open closet. Directly above the couch is lighting and controls along with another 120V Duplex Outlet. Above that is the upper bunk, stowed during the day along with the portable ladder used for bunk access.




*For daytime use, the VLII Bedroom earns a solid A*. There were only a couple of minor issues I'll cover in future posts that prevented a higher grade. I'll also grade the Bedroom in a future post for night time use.

Is it worth the cost over a Roomette? That is highly subjective. Viewliner Bedrooms are very expensive, as there are only two per car. Even on heavily used routes like the Silvers - there are typically only 6 total on any given trip - with an absolute max of 8. Contrast that with the Superliners, where you typically have 5 full-sized Bedrooms per car, and 2 or 3 cars per train.

I will say this for sure. There is absolutely no question that the Bedroom provided a much higher level experience over the Roomette. If there is any way you can afford it - you should experience one at least once.


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Another factor that contributed to the high grade on the VLII Bedroom is its extensive storage. I've covered the enclosed cabinet near the sink, and the open closet adjacent to the couch - but like the VLI, it also has huge luggage storage capacity.

As a matter of fact - even though my wife and I struggle to "travel light" - we couldn't come close to maxing out the storage capacity of the VLII Bedroom.

Let's start with the *two* storage areas below the couch - *each* measure a minimum of 22"D x 19"W x 9"H:




Next is the area above the hallway - measuring at least 45"W x 16.5"D x 15"H:





The area we used most heavily was the sizable storage area above the bathroom:




It's easier to see the available space when empty. The space is effectively 36"W x 24"D x 16"H, although there is a 6"W x 6"D cutout of unavailable space in the back corner, and a slim area along the back which is height restricted to 10"H.




Even though using the upper storage areas is a challenge with heavy luggage - there is so much storage under the couch that it is hard not to give the bedroom a high grade for total luggage storage.


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## joelkfla (Apr 11, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Another factor that contributed to the high grade on the VLII Bedroom is its extensive storage. I've covered the enclosed cabinet near the sink, and the open closet adjacent to the couch - but like the VLI, it also has huge luggage storage capacity.
> 
> As a matter of fact - even though my wife and I struggle to "travel light" - we couldn't come close to maxing out the storage capacity of the VLII Bedroom.
> 
> ...


Is that the PA speaker in the right wall over the bathroom? Perhaps one could stifle an overly loud speaker by pushing a piece of soft luggage against it.


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

The *VLII Bedroom at Night*...

While I gave the VLII Bedroom a very high daytime score - it's nighttime score is good, but lower. We'll start with the good, then cover the two factors that lowered the score.

First, the beds are pretty comfortable. Let's start with the lower berth - the couch converted to a bed.




The lower berth measures 39"W x 72"L - and while I didn't measure the headroom with the upper berth lowered - as a 6 footer I was able to sit up in bed with no issues. Someone 6'2" tall or so would need to be a little more careful. Mattress-wise, the lower berth thickness is a little under 4"




That was the berth that I used - and overall I would rate it roomy and pretty comfortable. I'm pretty sure it will become more comfortable over time - or at least a little softer. Both the couch cushions and the mattresses hadn't been broken in yet.

For the upper berth, my wife utilized that - and I should have taken more pictures. The dimensions of the upper berth are 27.5"W x 72"L, with pretty decent headroom although I didn't measure it. The mattress is at least an inch thicker, but doesn't have the benefit of sitting on the couch cushion for extra comfort.




There are independent lighting and air controls, and some netted storage for personal items (phone, wallet, glasses, etc.)




Unlike the VLI, the upper berth access ladder doesn't have its own closet - it is stored in the upper berth during the day.

The mechanism for lowering and raising the upper berth was easy to use





*(Continued in Next Post)*...


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

*VLII Bedroom at Night (continued)*

So my grade? The *VLII at Night earned a solid B*. Why the B and not higher? Two reasons...

The biggest negative to the VLII Bedroom at night is the lack of clearance between the lower berth and the sink area. While I didn't measure it, we're talking about 4-6" or so.

The photo below was taken from the upper berth - but it does illustrate at least a little bit the lack of clearance between the sink area and the beds at night:




This lack of clearance caused my first reaction to the room to be negative - not positive. That's because we boarded at 9:45pm in Richmond VA, and they had already put the lower bed down.

Whether this is Amtrak policy or not I don't know - but it was either bad Amtrak policy or a poor choice by my otherwise excellent SCA. Along with ourselves, we had considerable baggage to get in the room through that 4-6" gap. With the lower berth down - it was very, very awkward. And for folks less nimble than ourselves - it would have been even more so.

While access to the bathroom at night was fine - access to the sink was not. That meant stumbling along the narrow opening to get to the sink in an effort to wash ones hands after using the en suite.

The last negative factor at night is the lack of a power outlet for the upper berth. In 2020, it really is silly to not provide at least a low-voltage USB port for recharging purposes.




Don't let these two negatives sway you - just be fully aware of them. The overall experience of the VLII Bedroom at night was still very good!


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Is that the PA speaker in the right wall over the bathroom? Perhaps one could stifle an overly loud speaker by pushing a piece of soft luggage against it.



You also (in theory) have the ability to shut off the speaker altogether. The control for that in the bedroom is above the couch - immediately to the right of the Attendant Call button....




...and in the Roomette it is in the control area on the non-sink side...




We didn't test whether the button was actually working or not...


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 11, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> *VLII Bedroom at Night (continued)*
> 
> So my grade? A solid B. Why the B and not higher? Two reasons...
> 
> ...


That's a surprise that there is no outlet in the Upper! Is this true of the Roomettes also?


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> That's a surprise that there is no outlet in the Upper! Is this true of the Roomettes also?



Yes. Outlets in the Roomette have expanded from 1 to 2 - but both on the lower level. One adjacent to the sink (as before)...




...and the second on the other side between the seat and the open closet...


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 11, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Yes. Outlets in the Roomette have expanded from 1 to 2 - but both on the lower level. One adjacent to the sink (as before)...
> 
> View attachment 21609
> 
> ...


Thanks, this is a design flaw for sure!


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Now let's take a look at the *VLII Common Areas*.

And by Common Areas - I'm excluding the Public Restrooms, which I'll cover in a future post - and the Public Shower - which I already covered in detail and gave a high mark.

Let's start with the Look/Feel. I know it all depends on taste - but I LOVE the classic look that the rich, wood-like paneling provides. My very first impression of entering the car was more than positive. Not only the color of the paneling - but the cool, rounded look of the H Room door...




That rounded look made me think "Art Deco" for sure. Here's a look down the main hallway outside the bedrooms...




...and after turning the corner past Bedroom B, a look at the hallway with all the Roomettes




If you look closely at the ceiling - you'll see some good looking indicator lights - which change color when the occupant makes a service request...




And the posters at the end of the hallways look nice. Here's to hoping that Amtrak continues to use them tastefully...




A nice amenity I can't wait to use post-Covid is the refreshment station - which looks full-featured with coffee, ice, soft drinks, etc. It is located at the "jog" or "elbow" between the Bedroom hallway and the Roomette hallway...




At the entrance to the car (adjacent to the H room) there is even a recycling center. Nice!




All in All - the VLII Sleeper makes a tremendous first impression. The *VLII Common Areas* are terrific - *A+*!


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## cocojacoby (Apr 11, 2021)

Great pics and review. Thanks!

I agree about the sink accessibility problem when the lower bed is made. Maybe they should have put the sink at the other end of the countertop? It might have to be smaller though to not infringe on the toilet stall too much. It does come into the shower by a few inches in the back corner, but the present arrangement makes it almost unusable at night. Maybe it could even flip out like the roomette one so it doesn't need the intrusion into the shower module.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 11, 2021)

Oh look... an ice machine. It only took Amtrak 50 years to think of that!  

Love the pictures. I agree the car looks great. I love the wood paneling of the refurbished superliner sleepers as well. Really does a great job of making the train feel less sterile / plastic.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 11, 2021)

How early can you get coffee in the morning without the coffee station functioning yet? Did you have to go to the “sleeper lounge” for it? Or would your SCA bring it if asked?


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## Cal (Apr 11, 2021)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> How early can you get coffee in the morning without the coffee station functioning yet? Did you have to go to the “sleeper lounge” for it? Or would your SCA bring it if asked?


I believe you can request it from your SCA or go to the sleeper lounge, whatever you choose. The Cafe is always there too.


I love these new cars! If Amtrak could just make all cars like this, and *keep them in good condition*, it would be fantastic. 

About the upper berth having no plug, when I was on the superliner bedroom, I just plugged my phone in to the plug by the sink and tucked my phone between the metal on the edge and the mattress. It worked fine. (My feet were by the window)


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> How early can you get coffee in the morning without the coffee station functioning yet? Did you have to go to the “sleeper lounge” for it? Or would your SCA bring it if asked?


My experience in the Meteor was that the coffee was available from 6am...that's a little bit later than what I remember from pre-Covid days on other trains.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 11, 2021)

I think I remember it being 6:00, with an exception here and there, depending on the SCA.

Even with the coffee station, that timing was difficult for me. I usually have my first cup of coffee at home around 5:00, and as quietly as possible, to prevent a caffeine headache.

Sometimes I carry some dark chocolate for the caffeine just in case I can’t get my coffee before there is a lot of light and noise.

After the first cup, it doesn’t matter when the next ones are.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 11, 2021)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I think I remember it being 6:00, with an exception here and there, depending on the SCA.
> 
> Even with the coffee station, that timing was difficult for me. I usually have my first cup of coffee at home around 5:00, and as quietly as possible, to prevent a caffeine headache.
> 
> ...



I don’t have a problem with the early mornings but I have learned to always travel with a few Starbucks VIA packs in case the unthinkable happens and I don’t have access to coffee.


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

One other thing I noticed about the beverage station. It isn't fitted with _coffee and ice *makers*_ - it is fitted with _coffee and ice *dispensers*_. That means both ice and coffee can be made efficiently in the diner - but be accessible directly from the sleeper car. 




I think that's smart! It keeps some of the mess in the diner where it is easier to clean up, and presumably should mean higher coffee quality because of a "better" coffee machine in the diner with higher volume. 

I like it!


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Individual Feature - *VLII Door Latches*

In my previous sections you've seen how (by and large) I've been pretty happy with the changes that Amtrak has made from VLI to VLII.

I think those of us old enough to remember the VLI rollout remember that the door latches currently fitted on VLI's are NOT the same as those originally put into service. The current VLI latches were kind of crudely installed in Beech Grove a relatively short time after VLI deployment, when the original latches failed miserably.

Well - the VLII's have taken another swing at a new and improved latch mechanism! And my experience? Ugh.

Here are what the latches look like from the outside:




...and the inside:




What should be obvious is that you cannot reliably close the doors from the outside without a tool / key - which presumably only Amtrak personnel have access to.

They just won't stay put without latching, and there is no way to latch it from the outside without a key. That's barely an improvement over the current situation in other current Amtrak sleepers. I believe those require some sort of emergency window removal or something.

On the inside, the new latch assembly works....sometimes. Just closing the door and turning the lock works about half the time at best.

After first hand experience, what you REALLY need to do is this:

*PUSH* the door solidly shut
*HOLD FIRMLY* the door in place without reducing pressure, and
*LATCH* the door
Without PUSH-HOLD FIRMLY-LATCH, it is unlikely to actually latch. With PUSH-HOLD FIRMLY-LATCH, it works nearly every time.

The "HOLD FIRMLY in place without reducing pressure" part will be a problem for some people, especially the elderly.

So this is the first bad grade I have to give a new Amtrak feature - *VLII Door Latches D+*. Surely someone, _somewhere_ has designed a decent sleeping compartment door latch in the last 25 years...


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 11, 2021)

So after latching it inside—how easy is it to unlatch it and get out again?


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Cal said:


> About the upper berth having no plug, when I was on the superliner bedroom, I just plugged my phone in to the plug by the sink and tucked my phone between the metal on the edge and the mattress. It worked fine. (My feet were by the window)



I bet that would work fairly well on the VLII Sleepers as well. Although you'd probably have to bring some "blue tack" or something crazy to keep the phone cable from accidentally becoming a late night "garrote" (ala From Russia with Love) and strangling your suite mate in the dark as they stumble to the sink to wash their hands after using the en suite.

See how I referenced a movie with great sleeper car scenes? Very clever on my part!


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> So after latching it inside—how easy is it to unlatch it and get out again?



Unlatching isn't quite as bad. But again - it works most reliably if you HOLD FIRMLY LATCHED-UNLATCH instead of just UNLATCH...


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## PVD (Apr 11, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> One other thing I noticed about the beverage station. It isn't fitted with _coffee and ice *makers*_ - it is fitted with _coffee and ice *dispensers*_. That means both ice and coffee can be made efficiently in the diner - but be accessible directly from the sleeper car.
> 
> View attachment 21669
> 
> ...


By having ice dispensed in a device that does not permit the public to contaminate it, it satisfies the sanitary requirements that sort of killed the previous policy...


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Individual Feature - *Charging Mobile Devices*

As most of you have seen, I have been a little bit critical of Amtrak not doing a better job accommodating mobile device charging. They didn't include USB ports, and they haven't included anything for charging at night while sleeping in the upper berth.

Just for interest, here are a couple of photos of how I went about charging my watch and iPad while in the VLII Bedroom on the way south...



That's the small shelf above the Couch. Not the most stable approach, but believe it or not the watch stayed put for a couple of hours while it was charging...



Here's the iPad - again - not the most stable location - but it stayed put. Notice how I routed the charging cable through the towel holder to keep it from "taking a bath" in the sink.

This little "cubby" I've talked about in the Roomette COULD be used for placing mobile devices while they are charging. It's located directly under one of the outlets, and within the reach of a typical 1m charging cable. It's also sized big enough to hold a phone, watch, or small tablet. I'll assume that is the purpose of the cubby and raise Amtrak's grade a bit...




So for *Charging Mobile Devices - a solid C*. Yeah - they should have done much better - but they could have done worse, as well.


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Now for the *VLII Public Restrooms*

Nothing special here - which is probably why it is nearly last. I for one prefer public restrooms when I'm traveling in Roomettes, but appreciate private restrooms when traveling in a Bedroom. But I understand that's not the case for everyone. So the fact VLII's HAVE a public restroom while VLI's did not - that gets an A from me - but that's my preference. As to the grade on the restroom itself, you'll need to scroll down further to see that.

There are two public restrooms - both located at the end of the car across from the shower and adjacent to the "Railfan Window".

Here is a look into the the last restroom...


It's pretty much fully featured, with the toilet, storage shelf for paper products, 120V duplex outlet...



Sink and Mirror. And on the way out...


...don't forget to use the trash can.

For the *VLII Public Restrooms, Grade B-*. They didn't screw anything up - but they also didn't exactly advance toilet technology either. One thing I've noticed when using Amtrak restrooms - they ALWAYS work better "wet" then "dry". A Texas Eagle Sleeping Car Attendant taught me that.

That SCA taught me the Amtrak toilet will work nearly as well as your toilet at home IF it has a few cups of water in it before use. If it is left "dry", it will struggle to flush effectively. I've noticed some new Amtrak toilets are designed to be "wet", while other new Amtrak toilets (like the VLII) remain of the "dry" design.

It would be better if all new Amtrak toilets would be "wet". A lot of people in Coach _and_ Sleeper would be a lot happier...


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

Last but certainly not least, the *VLII Roomette*

This is a little anti-climactic, as I have showed several of the differentiating features between VLI and VLII Roomettes in the preceding posts.

But there is additional detail I haven't shared yet - so let's get to it.

First the more obvious. Roomettes feature two wide seats facing each other. Both wide seats can recline. The two seats combine into a lower berth at night, and there is an upper berth that can be brought down from the ceiling - where it is stowed during the day. That's all exactly the same as in the VLI's.

Now for the ginormous difference - the lack of an in-room toilet. It's the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life issue of this forum. Food service may bring more passion and raise more blood pressure - but (most) everyone wants better food. This forum seems to be more evenly split between whether it is more gross to use a public restroom, or more gross to have an unenclosed toilet in your roomette...

Here's the ex-toilet turned expanded storage/shelf/step side...



...and below that lower shelf is a new luggage storage area we've covered in great detail earlier in the thread - including its exact dimensions.

And now for the opposite side...


This seat is wider. This side features an open closet (like the VLI's) - and a new much expanded stainless steel Trash bin...



We've covered the fact that the Roomettes feature two 120V Duplex outlets, versus one for the VLI. There is one outlet per side, but none high enough to be usable by the upper berth at night. Here is the open closet side...


...and the Sink side...



The fold-down sink deserves significant mention - as it is definitely improved from the VLI days - or appears to be. Below is the sink in the down position...


Sink dimensions alone are 12"L x 10"W x 3.5"D, or with countertop at 16"L x 12.875"W. The VLI sink was stainless steel - and the VLII is not - so durability may be a question left to be answered as more time passes. However - the "turn to operate" faucets work nicely, versus the "push to unleash 5000 psi and shoot lasers of water into your body and get totally drenched" operation of the VLI faucets they replaced.

(Continued on Next Post)


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

*VLII Roomette (continued)*

The VLII Roomette, like the VLI offers both lower and upper windows - with great views day or night at least on one side of the train. Unlike the VLI - the foldout table between the seats on the window side has been immensely improved. This has been covered at length in a previous, dedicated post.

Like the full-size Bedroom - there is luggage storage located up high above the hallway - and is dimensioned at 36"W x 15.75"D x 15.5"H. Also just like the VLI, there are complete lighting and ventilation controls accessible from the top bunk at night, along with a small pocket for personal objects (glasses, phone, etc.). As mentioned earlier - there is no power of any kind - charging or otherwise - in the upper berth area.

The sleeping arrangement of the upper berth remains a favorite of mine - with an upper window with nearly perfect placement - and the ability to watch the darkened landscape slide by at 80MPH while you drift off to sleep.

The *Viewliner Roomette - earns a solid A* from the "no unenclosed toilet" crowd like me, and something more like *a shaky C* from the other side. I will quote an "other sider" from my Meteor trip. This gal was obviously a New Yorker (from her accent) and a regular (by the way she was familiar to the crew). Her exact quote was _"just give me my own damn toilet and I'll be a lot happier"_.


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## IndyLions (Apr 11, 2021)

*VLII Sleeper - Final Weighted Grade*

Most Important Categories
VLII Bedroom Day time - A (Really nice!)
VLII Bedroom Night time - B (Nice, but sink / couch clearance is non-existent)
Roomette - A (for the _Toilet? Ewww!_ crowd)
Roomette - C (for the G_ive me my damn toilet_ crowd)
H Bedroom - No Grade
Common Areas - A+ (Beautiful!)
Shower - A+ (Best shower on Amtrak by far!)
Public Restrooms - B- (Toilets should be of a "wet" design)

Individual Features
New Fold-out Tables - A+ (Awesome!)
Updated Sinks - A (Better faucets!)
New Roomette Storage - B average (I love it! unless I'd rather have a toilet - then I hate it!)
Mobile Device Charging - C (should have done better for the upper berth)
New Door Latches - D+ (if you need a user's manual to operate a latch, it's not good)

*Final Weighted Grade: A-*


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 11, 2021)

Really nicely done. Greatly appreciate the thoughtful detail that went into your thorough review. Once I experience it I may have another opinion but they strike me as already dated in terms of controls, technology, functions, connections, etc. But they appear aesthetically pleasant and, from what you say, an advance in comfort; definitely a step up from V1. If Amtrak can refurbish Superliners, I hope they take it a step further from this.


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## Eric S (Apr 11, 2021)

Fantastic! Really appreciated the in-depth review.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 11, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> One other thing I noticed about the beverage station. It isn't fitted with _coffee and ice *makers*_ - it is fitted with _coffee and ice *dispensers*_. That means both ice and coffee can be made efficiently in the diner - but be accessible directly from the sleeper car.
> 
> View attachment 21669
> 
> ...



As far as I know, no Amtrak cars have ice makers on board. It’s always loaded on at service stops. 

It’s hard to tell for sure from the photo but it looks like there is a hot water faucet above the coffee dispenser so that may be a coffee maker as well.


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 12, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Unlatching isn't quite as bad. But again - it works most reliably if you HOLD FIRMLY LATCHED-UNLATCH instead of just UNLATCH...



So unlocking the door from inside is tricky? Some people may get stuck inside! What was wrong with the old latches that couldn't possibly get stuck! Is the bedroom door latch the same?


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## railiner (Apr 12, 2021)

Thanks for the very detailed review. By far better than anything I have seen anywhere else. Amtrak should adopt it for a "Q&A" section of their website...


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## jiml (Apr 12, 2021)

@IndyLions, we all owe you gratitude for this thorough work. Just to echo @railiner above, it's a shame there isn't a description in this detail for every Amtrak accommodation to form a reference "Wiki" page. It would sure save a lot of repeat questions and possibly new threads by inexperienced Amtrak riders. Well done!


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## cocojacoby (Apr 12, 2021)

Great pics. These two show my complaints about lack of floor space. For one person this design is great. But a roomette is designed for two people. When two people are in there, especially when the beds are made up or the table is up, where can two people stand?

I was hoping that with the removal of the toilet that area could have been opened up with fold-down or pull-out steps maybe. Opposite that, the trash container could have been moved back somewhat.

You and your partner end up crawling around a lot on the bottom bed instead of functioning normally upright and doing basic things like changing cloths and brushing your teeth and getting up to go to the restroom or shower. It becomes a chorography routine every time you need to do something.

I feel it's just a bit of stressful uncomfortable gymnastics for two passengers that could have been avoided with a better redesign. Certainly not that easy for an elderly couple.


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## AG1 (Apr 12, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> *VLII Bedroom at Night (continued)*
> 
> So my grade? The *VLII at Night earned a solid B*. Why the B and not higher? Two reasons...
> 
> ...


IndyLions
Thank you for a very nice presentation. There is a simply solution to the lack of space between the sink and bed in the extended position. Don't extend the bed fully or push it back a foot if the attendant does so. After you use the sink you can fully extend the bed . In the morning, lift the inside cushion(wall edge) and push the bed back for room. I did this on a VL 1 the only time I rode in a bedroom because I was unexpectedly moved from a roomette for free.


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## NYP2NFL01 (Apr 12, 2021)

IndyLions,

Thank you for such an in-depth review of the new VLII Bedroom. I have a bedroom booked for mid-September travel on both the Silver Star and Silver Meteor. I read another post on this forum that all sleepers on the Silver Service trains now feature the VLII sleepers. I hope that is true. I can't wait to experience them.
I remember when the VLI sleepers had that "new-car" look and smell (circa 1997)


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## Cal (Apr 12, 2021)

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I read another post on this forum that all sleepers on the Silver Service trains now feature the VLII sleepers. I hope that is true. I can't wait to experience them.


I believe that currently 2 sleepers are VII's, not all 3.


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## jis (Apr 12, 2021)

Cal said:


> I believe that currently 2 sleepers are VII's, not all 3.


This was certainly true on 10 April, 2021 91(9) and 92(10), at least on the two consists that I traveled by.


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 13, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Great pics. These two show my complaints about lack of floor space. For one person this design is great. But a roomette is designed for two people. When two people are in there, especially when the beds are made up or the table is up, where can two people stand?
> 
> I was hoping that with the removal of the toilet that area could have been opened up with fold-down or pull-out steps maybe. Opposite that, the trash container could have been moved back somewhat.
> 
> ...


Pre Amtrak Roomettes were designed for ONE person and that is how it should have remained. Unfortunately Amtrak regressed. The current two person Roomette is far too small and should never have been redesigned to allow for two berths instead of one. Now with the tricky latches that may not function from inside, imagine the nightmare for people who can't get out! I remember Paul Theroux writing about such an experience on a decrepit train (I believe in Eastern Europe). Inside his compartment he struggled to get out becoming increasingly anxious that he would be trapped.


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## railiner (Apr 13, 2021)

I haven't seen the new latches, but I would imagine that Amtrak has developed some plan to open the door from the outside, in such an event, and perhaps trained crews, accordingly. Children or elderly will sometimes get "locked in" to restrooms and such, and there are means to open them from the outside.
As far as being "trapped", in a worst case scenario, you could escape thru the emergency window, by removing the rubber seal...


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 13, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Pre Amtrak Roomettes were designed for ONE person and that is how it should have remained. Unfortunately Amtrak regressed. The current two person Roomette is far too small and should never have been redesigned to allow for two berths instead of one.



I disagree 100%. I much prefer the Amtrak roomette design over heritage roomette.


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## Exvalley (Apr 13, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I disagree 100%. I much prefer the Amtrak roomette design over heritage roomette.


I agree. It's not as if Amtrak forces solo travelers to be paired up. So I don't see how having the option of a second person in the roomette is a bad thing. I also prefer the upper bunk in a Viewliner roomette.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 13, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Pre Amtrak Roomettes were designed for ONE person and that is how it should have remained. Unfortunately Amtrak regressed. The current two person Roomette is far too small and should never have been redesigned to allow for two berths instead of one.



The room would be fine for two if they only allowed the extra floor space as I suggested. My wife and I have taken them many times and I like the rooms a lot, especially the upper berth window, but it's just difficult to maneuver around when there is only a 2' X 2' open floor area.

It was a lost opportunity to make the roomette a little bit better.


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## Cal (Apr 13, 2021)

I have no problem with the size of the roomette, you are only there for a few days, and you usually have other places to sit on the longer journeys. And it's a great use of a small space


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## Manny T (Apr 13, 2021)

Wonderful reporting!

I'm quite interested in the chair in the *bedroom, *not the roomette. I wonder if you had occasion to sit in it and try it out (apologies if this is mentioned previously). Is it comfortable? Is it at all different than the previous version, or is it just the same but reupholstered in a new fabric?

From my experience, this item, although called a "chair," cannot be sat it comfortably. I'm not an expert in ergonomics so I can't explain why; I can only state what my back, spine, neck and butt tell me...Hence, I wonder if they improved the chair, or if it is still unusable.


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## Maglev (Apr 13, 2021)

The Superliner rooms on Amtrak were originally called "Economy" and "Deluxe." The Economy Bedrooms were designed as an inexpensive way for two people to be able to lie down at night. As far as lack of floor space in Roomettes and Bedrooms (by the sink) goes, I think it's just a sacrifice to being able to experience comfort while traveling.

I agree that the chair in the old Bedrooms is very uncomfortable. The previous free-standing folding chair was much softer.


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## Qapla (Apr 13, 2021)

Perhaps, as they are used a bit more, the latches on the doors will become easier to use and people can once again complain about the "banging and rattling" they make and go back to wedging/taping them.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 13, 2021)

I believe the newer "chair on a post" design was made necessary because of a wreck where the old folding chair became a really dangerous projectile. The attached chair is a clever design, fairly comfortable and functions well.

In my personal experience I like sitting face forward to travel and that extra chair allows that (depending on the orientation of the car). I'm glad they just didn't say we have to remove that loose chair for safety and give up on that extra window seat. Kudos to Amtrak on this.


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## IndyLions (Apr 13, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> ...Now with the tricky latches that may not function from inside, imagine the nightmare for people who can't get out!


I am afraid that my descriptive language on the latches may have led to the misconception that people would get trapped.

That is highly unlikely to happen. Even if it did, Amtrak has a key/tool to open the door from the outside.

The most likely scenario for a “malfunction” would be a latch that doesn’t stay latched or a latch that might be a little harder to turn to unlatch. In both cases, pushing the door all the way closed while latching/unlatching allows it to work just about every time.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 13, 2021)

The latches won’t last... they were part of the Viewliner I doors as well and they eventually got replaced with the tried and true heavy duty Amtrak metal latch.


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## IndyLions (Apr 13, 2021)

Manny T said:


> Wonderful reporting!
> 
> I'm quite interested in the chair in the *bedroom, *not the roomette. I wonder if you had occasion to sit in it and try it out (apologies if this is mentioned previously). Is it comfortable? Is it at all different than the previous version, or is it just the same but reupholstered in a new fabric?
> 
> From my experience, this item, although called a "chair," cannot be sat it comfortably. I'm not an expert in ergonomics so I can't explain why; I can only state what my back, spine, neck and butt tell me...Hence, I wonder if they improved the chair, or if it is still unusable.



I certainly spent some time trying it out and sitting in it. I thought it was a sturdy chair which was fairly adjustable and pretty comfortable. I sat there for several hours at a time while my wife and I played cards, and I don’t remember any ill effects.

But I don’t have a lot to compare it to. I’ve spent very little time in the Superliner Bedroom portable chair (not impressed) and I’ve never sat in the VLI version.


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## Cal (Apr 13, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The latches won’t last... they were part of the Viewliner I doors as well and they eventually got replaced with the tried and true heavy duty Amtrak metal latch.


Honestly, I like those. Easy to use and pretty clear.


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## Mailliw (Apr 13, 2021)

Maglev said:


> he Superliner rooms on Amtrak were originally called "Economy" and "Deluxe." The Economy Bedrooms were designed as an inexpensive way for two people to be able to lie down at night. As


_This. _Amtrak roomettes are basically a hybrid of Pullman roomettes and sections. I think Amtrak should revert to marketing them as the "economy sleeper" option and the Bedrooms as the deluxe option. Unless of course Amtrak decides to order cars with Nightjet style couchette pods.


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## Cal (Apr 13, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> _This. _Amtrak roomettes are basically a hybrid of Pullman roomettes and sections. I think Amtrak should revert to marketing them as the "economy sleeper" option and the Bedrooms as the deluxe option.


Not with the current prices!


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## railiner (Apr 13, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> _This. _Amtrak roomettes are basically a hybrid of Pullman roomettes and sections. I think Amtrak should revert to marketing them as the "economy sleeper" option and the Bedrooms as the deluxe option. Unless of course Amtrak decides to order cars with Nightjet style couchette pods.


Another comparison might be a Double Slumbercoach Room....


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 14, 2021)

railiner said:


> Another comparison might be a Double Slumbercoach Room....



Those were even smaller!


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 14, 2021)

Is this latch actually a deadbolt?


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## jpakala (Apr 14, 2021)

The double Slumbercoach rooms didn't seem smaller to me. Part of that may have been the higher ceiling than in Superliner roomettes. The one-passenger roomettes had a regular rather than narrow single bed. You did in the original style have to open the door to raise it to use the toilet (not the sink) and that's why there were curtains on the outer side of roomette doors, but the later style had a slightly narrower bottom third of the bed so you could stand on the floor to raise it, and no curtains were involved.


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## Qapla (Apr 14, 2021)

It would be nice if the rooms had ceiling fans


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## IndyLions (Apr 14, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Is this latch actually a deadbolt?



No - it’s not a deadbolt. I don’t remember the design exactly, but regardless of the actual details, the design depended on tolerances that the fabrication wasn’t delivering.


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## IndyLions (Apr 14, 2021)

Cal said:


> Honestly, I like those. Easy to use and pretty clear.


Those old fashioned latches work - but getting into a latched room from the outside in an emergency, or simply latching the door from the outside still aren’t supported.

Again, we landed on the moon in ‘69. Designing a decent rail compartment door latch shouldn’t be that difficult...


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## IndyLions (Apr 14, 2021)

Qapla said:


> It would be nice if the rooms had ceiling fans


It would also be nice if the windows (or a section of a window at least) could open for fresh air ventilation. 

However, this is the USA. We have faaaar too many lawyers for any feature that might require a scintilla of common sense by the consumer. So no fresh air for us.


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## railiner (Apr 14, 2021)

Qapla said:


> It would be nice if the rooms had ceiling fans


Agreed. The Heritage rooms had them.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 14, 2021)

The Viewliner I’s have Fans built into the wall.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 15, 2021)

And Amtrak should have come up with a locking mechanism from outside the room. They have them in Europe. A magnetic card like a hotel room or even a smart phone key is not futuristic wish list stuff anymore. Actually that would work from both sides eliminating any problematic manual latch.


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## Mailliw (Apr 15, 2021)

Or even PIN locks like alot of Airbnb rentals and some hotels use. Passengers could just be emailed their PIN 48 hrs or so before the trip and could access their compartment as soon as they board just as they do now w/o having to wait for the SCA to unlock it or distribute a key card.


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## joelkfla (Apr 15, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Or even PIN locks like alot of Airbnb rentals and some hotels use. Passengers could just be emailed their PIN 48 hrs or so before the trip and could access their compartment as soon as they board just as they do now w/o having to wait for the SCA to unlock it or distribute a key card.


There's not even a need to provide a PIN. Hotel room safes and Japan's Sunrise Express sleeper let the user set their own PIN. The SCA would simply reset it when the room's occupant detrains.


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## tricia (Apr 15, 2021)

I don't even want to think about what a mess PIN locks would have been when I was traveling with my elderly father, whose memory was fading. 

It's not hard to imagine a good many folks locking themselves out of their own rooms if remembering a PIN is required.


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## Mailliw (Apr 15, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> There's not even a need to provide a PIN. Hotel room safes and Japan's Sunrise Express sleeper let the user set their own PIN. The SCA would simply reset it when the room's occupant detrains.


That works too; I was just thinking they'd be locked by default so only the passengers booked could access. No system will please everyone. Using a PIN system eliminates the need for physical keycards, but some passengers may have trouble keeping track of their PIN. On the other hand passengers may forget to take their keycard with them to the diner/toilet/shower and lock themselves out anyway. Letting passengers use their phone as a key raises issues of its own, and would still need a backup option. The SCAs presence should alleviate lockouts.


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## tricia (Apr 15, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> That works too; I was just thinking they'd be locked by default so only the passengers booked could access. No system will please everyone. Using a PIN system eliminates the need for physical keycards, but some passengers may have trouble keeping track of their PIN. On the other hand passengers may forget to take their keycard with them to the diner/toilet/shower and lock themselves out anyway. Letting passengers use their phone as a key raises issues of its own, and would still need a backup option. The SCAs presence should alleviate lockouts.



Any system where the door locks with the key left behind in the room is going to have the SCA up all night opening doors for sleepy passengers who walk down the hall to the bathroom without their key. Not a good scenario.


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## Mailliw (Apr 15, 2021)

I meant they'd locked by default after the SCA reset them for the next passenger; not necessarily all the time like hotel rooms.


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## Qapla (Apr 15, 2021)

Using a disposable card that needs to be used to lock/unlock the door would be a workable solution.

The door would not lock unless they used the card to lock it so no leaving the card in the room and locking them out. Each card can be programmed "on the spot" the way motel room keycards are programmed. The SCA could decommission the card when they ready the room for the next guest.

It should be a card that only needs to be placed against a "hot spot" not one that needs to be passed/slid/swiped through a slot.

By using disposable cards the SCA would not need to try to retrieve the cards while passengers get off the train (especially when some are only steeping off for "fresh air" while others are leaving the train) and the passenger would have a souvenir to take with them ... the cards could be emblazoned with the Amtrak logo and maybe even the train name.


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## Mailliw (Apr 15, 2021)

That works too, just put a bucket in the car so passengers can leave them for recycling if they don't want a souvenir.


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## Twinkletoes (Apr 15, 2021)

jpakala said:


> The double Slumbercoach rooms didn't seem smaller to me. Part of that may have been the higher ceiling than in Superliner roomettes. The one-passenger roomettes had a regular rather than narrow single bed. You did in the original style have to open the door to raise it to use the toilet (not the sink) and that's why there were curtains on the outer side of roomette doors, but the later style had a slightly narrower bottom third of the bed so you could stand on the floor to raise it, and no curtains were involved.


I remember these. It was a nice comfortable bed. I believe that there also was a toilet at the end of the car for use when the bed was down.


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## railiner (Apr 15, 2021)

Twinkletoes said:


> I remember these. It was a nice comfortable bed. I believe that there also was a toilet at the end of the car for use when the bed was down.


You are correct...all the Heritage sleepers, including the Slumbercoaches had a 'public toilet' in the car.


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## west point (Apr 16, 2021)

there may be some safety considerations in case of an incident ? Thinking especially about fire ?


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 16, 2021)

the design depended on tolerances that the fabrication wasn’t delivering.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, what does this mean?


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## PVD (Apr 16, 2021)

The factory didn't get the job done according to the plans.


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## IndyLions (Apr 18, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> the design depended on tolerances that the fabrication wasn’t delivering.
> 
> Sorry, what does this mean?





PVD said:


> The factory didn't get the job done according to the plans.



...what PVD said - with the added comment that the design of a common product (e.g. not a space ship) that depends on tolerances that are not easily met - is a poor design.

I'd be more inclined to believe that they got the design wrong on the latch.


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## IndyLions (Apr 18, 2021)

tricia said:


> Any system where the door locks with the key left behind in the room is going to have the SCA up all night opening doors for sleepy passengers who walk down the hall to the bathroom without their key. Not a good scenario.



I couldn't agree more with tricia on this one. I, for one - have dragged my tired self (and my luggage) up and down elevators countless times when keycards provided by hotel desk clerks didn't work for one reason or another.

The current latch does allow you to latch your door from the inside and for Amtrak employees with a key/tool to access your door in an emergency - that's good. They just didn't make any accommodation for the door to shut and stay shut when closed from the outside. And of course it doesn't work as reliably as it needs to, either.


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## Qapla (Apr 18, 2021)

This video was posted near the end of March -


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## IndyLions (Apr 18, 2021)

It’s a really good video. It was one of the reasons my photos and trip report were delayed a bit. It kind of prompted me to post more pictures and measurements than I otherwise would have - because frankly the video did a great job of covering all the basics and more.


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## Qapla (Apr 18, 2021)

We don't mind duplication ... the more info the better


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