# Back to the drawing board for LaGuardia AirTrain



## Deni (Oct 15, 2021)

Article from NY Times, New York's new governor is putting the LGA AirTrain plans on hold and having a review done. Hopefully a better plan comes out of this because Cuomo's was terrible.









With Cuomo Out, $2.1 Billion La Guardia AirTrain Is Halted


Gov. Kathy Hochul had asked the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to put the project on hold and review alternatives.




www.nytimes.com


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## joelkfla (Oct 15, 2021)

Deni said:


> Article from NY Times, New York's new governor is putting the LGA AirTrain plans on hold and having a review done. Hopefully a better plan comes out of this because Cuomo's was terrible.
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That's good news and bad news.

Good news: maybe they will come up with something better.

Bad news: Does she have the political pull and chutzpah to see it through? Those were Cuomo's advantages.


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## Deni (Oct 15, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> That's good news and bad news.
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> Good news: maybe they will come up with something better.
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> Bad news: Does she have the political pull and chutzpah to see it through? Those were Cuomo's advantages.


My guess would be probably not. But as much as I want a rail connection to LGA this seems like a huge waste of money for a plan that, in my opinion, doesn't improve access over the Q70-SBS and M60-SBS buses. My guess is it falls to the next gubernatorial term, and I don't think she'll be the one sitting in that office by then.


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## jis (Oct 16, 2021)

They really need to revisit the idea of extending the Astoria Line to LGA, irrespective of whatever other scheme they want to think about.

A case can be made perhaps for extending the JFK Airtrain from Jamaica to LGA with a stop around Flushing Meadows interchanging with 7 and LIRR Port Washington Line, but that should be in addition to, not instead of the extension of N to LGA. Just IMHO of course.

It would also be kind of neat to take on the challenge of building a high level station on the Hell Gate Line right above the current Astoria terminal station of N with a transfer facility between MNRR and Subway there.


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## adamj023 (Oct 16, 2021)

All that has to be done here is to build a ferry stop on the existing NYC Ferry system and build it by the Marine Terminal and connect it to a ferry station that has mass transit access, preferably by a rail and/or subway connection and add a short shuttle bus if necessary. Ferry system already has routes and boats so this can be integrated into the existing system for a limited cost. There was no reason to build a costly Air Train in the wrong direction which would NOT benefit the vast majority of travelers. The JFK Airtrain was an excellent project that was needed and one I have even used before as station is in the right location and benefits a much wider area. Not every airport is meant to be connected by rail or subway as bus and ferry are the options that make sense here. Most people using La Guardia are going to be using cars. The rest can come from bus and ferry and this is all it needs. There will be mass transit links to bus lines, subway and ferry and rail lines, just not all of them at the airport itself. Use tax savings for cancelling this plan and give it back to taxpayers.



https://images.ferry.nyc/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/20131449/system_map_8-23_-.png?_ga=2.156455803.1373047920.1634422685-2128666843.1634422685



East 90th street and/or East 34th street seem to be fine for connections to NYC Ferry to a new La Guardia airport ferry stop.


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## joelkfla (Oct 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> All that has to be done here is to build a ferry stop on the existing NYC Ferry system and build it by the Marine Terminal and connect it to a ferry station that has mass transit access, preferably by a rail and/or subway connection and add a short shuttle bus if necessary. Ferry system already has routes and boats so this can be integrated into the existing system for a limited cost. There was no reason to build a costly Air Train in the wrong direction which would NOT benefit the vast majority of travelers. The JFK Airtrain was an excellent project that was needed and one I have even used before as station is in the right location and benefits a much wider area. Not every airport is meant to be connected by rail or subway as bus and ferry are the options that make sense here. Most people using La Guardia are going to be using cars. The rest can come from bus and ferry and this is all it needs. There will be mass transit links to bus lines, subway and ferry and rail lines, just not all of them at the airport itself. Use tax savings for cancelling this plan and give it back to taxpayers.
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I like the idea of a ferry, if it can have adequate capacity. But buses just add to and get caught in congestion. And I think they have high labor costs per passenger mile, if you can even find enough drivers to hire.

I vote for a ferry with an Automated People Mover between it & the passenger terminal.


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## PVD (Oct 16, 2021)

The major problem with the ferry idea is that the majority of the ferry landings require you to transfer to a different means of transit when you get off. Operating costs of the ferries is very high.


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## adamj023 (Oct 16, 2021)

NYC Ferry is operated by the city already. It has the boats, and ferry terminals already. There are no added operations costs more than any other route it already has. Just need to extend the existing shifts or add additional personnel and some negligible increase in boat fuel. You are only adding one ferry terminal and building out bulkhead, maybe some dredging work is possibly needed and maybe some bridge modifications or whatnot. The ferries aren’t an issue like container ships where the Bayonne bridge in NJ had to be increased more significantly in hight but even that project was doable. NYC Ferry charges same fare as a subway ride. As airports usually have higher fees for rail links they can increase the fee for the airport if they want or need to. Operational costs are already spread out by NYC Ferry for all their existing ferry lines and you are just adding one new ferry terminal. NYC Ferry’s footprint was built out over time. Most people transfer from existing airtrains to other forms of transit, as most people don’t live close enough to walk directly. Ferry’s themselves to add to the fleet are way less expensive than the air train project costs assuming they want to add to the existing ferry fleet.


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## PVD (Oct 16, 2021)

NYC ferry is operated by contractors, not the city. Only the SI Ferry is city operated. They are heavily subsidized, it costs way more per ride than the fare.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Not every airport is meant to be connected by rail or subway as bus and ferry are the options that make sense here.


The vast majority of US cities have no subway or other metro rail systems to connect with. Here we have a rare combination of a dense American city with a vast mix of passenger rail services and a very busy but underprovisioned airport and connecting them makes no sense? I've arrived at and departed from LaGuardia in weather that would make a clumsy combination of ferries and shuttle buses quite unpleasant so thanks but no thanks to that.


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## adamj023 (Oct 17, 2021)

PVD said:


> NYC ferry is operated by contractors, not the city. Only the SI Ferry is city operated. They are heavily subsidized, it costs way more per ride than the fare.



The NYC Ferry is owned by the New York City Economic Development Corporation and is run by the contractor Hornblower. Mayor Bill De Blasio was heavily involved. He is also against the previous air train proposal and I think this would be a solution that would make sense.

The subsidies of the system are already in place and no additional significant subsidizes would be needed. The airtrain proposal was 2.1 Billion dollars. You could easily raise fare prices on the La Guardia ferry route and other routes in the system. Much cheaper cost to provide direct access to Manhattan and other parts including the Astoria Queens ferry stop and more.

i disagree with De Blasio on the subsidizes already in place but I would not dismantle the ferry system and I don’t believe it will be. Fares can be raised and routes adjusted but the link to La Guardia airport using the NYC ferry seems like the best option and is much better than a train or direct subway solution. Better transit links can be improved on the NYC ferry side in Manhattan for instance such as the second avenue subway project which runs close to some ferry terminals and a very small extension could be done specifically for the NYC Ferry terminal with pedestrian walkways underground to the 2nd avenue subway stations or other likeminded solutions. There are definitely solutions doable for a much lower cost using the existing NYC Ferry already in place.

Considering usage patterns of the NYC Ferry which was heavily utilized prepandemic, it seems more than likely this solution will be used by those looking to get to the airport and will avoid traffic jams as well. Woule transit times to get into Manhattan be quicker than going out of the way to willets point and using the LIRR Port Washington Line or overcrowded 7 Subway line?

Another ferry terminal may be needed and the only line that goes by close is the Hells Gate area where there are no rail stations. Manhattan does add some time to the ride. All are welcome to comment. Ferry solution is doable but also seems to have some barriers. Ferry seems somewhat better snd cheaper than rail based solutions if something can be worked out.

Closest space between Ferry and subway station seems to be at Roosevelt Island with an F connection, The ferry is on the opposite side and a little further away, Perhaps Roosevelt Island could have the boats directly to La Guardia Airport snd they can rework it so the ferry and subway statio are better integrated,


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## Deni (Oct 17, 2021)

jis said:


> They really need to revisit the idea of extending the Astoria Line to LGA, irrespective of whatever other scheme they want to think about.
> 
> A case can be made perhaps for extending the JFK Airtrain from Jamaica to LGA with a stop around Flushing Meadows interchanging with 7 and LIRR Port Washington Line, but that should be in addition to, not instead of the extension of N to LGA. Just IMHO of course.
> 
> It would also be kind of neat to take on the challenge of building a high level station on the Hell Gate Line right above the current Astoria terminal station of N with a transfer facility between MNRR and Subway there.


Extending the Astoria line is my preference for sure. I do like the idea of also doing an AirTrain extension. There are definitely airlines that will route international itineraries with connections between those two airports so being able to make a faster and easier connection would be great.

A station above the Ditmars stop is a dream of mine. When I lived in NYC on the UES I had to work up at Albert Einstein med school a lot and it took me forever. If I could have taken the N and transferred to the MNRR right there then to the stop right next to the campus (which is actually one of the planned stops) that would have been heaven.


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## Deni (Oct 17, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> All that has to be done here is to build a ferry stop on the existing NYC Ferry system and build it by the Marine Terminal and connect it to a ferry station that has mass transit access, preferably by a rail and/or subway connection and add a short shuttle bus if necessary. Ferry system already has routes and boats so this can be integrated into the existing system for a limited cost. There was no reason to build a costly Air Train in the wrong direction which would NOT benefit the vast majority of travelers. The JFK Airtrain was an excellent project that was needed and one I have even used before as station is in the right location and benefits a much wider area. Not every airport is meant to be connected by rail or subway as bus and ferry are the options that make sense here. Most people using La Guardia are going to be using cars. The rest can come from bus and ferry and this is all it needs. There will be mass transit links to bus lines, subway and ferry and rail lines, just not all of them at the airport itself. Use tax savings for cancelling this plan and give it back to taxpayers.
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A ferry connection to the east side of Manhattan, really far from any subway stops (and no, the 2nd Ave subway I would not consider close when you have luggage), and being let off at the least used terminal at the airport helps almost no one. Even for the people who live near the ferry docks on Manhattan there would likely not be any time savings. There needs to be a rail connection to LGA.


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## Danib62 (Oct 17, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Most people using La Guardia are going to be using cars..


Maybe if you give people a decent transit option that won’t be the case


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## adamj023 (Oct 17, 2021)

Roosevelt Island is the only part that seems to have ability for a direct ferry to subway transfer that can be better integrated. But the 2nd avenue subway line does get close in parts to the Manhattan waterfront. 

An extension to Astoria subway won’t get done nor will Willets Point so ferry still should be considered. Otherwise it will remain as is with bus as the mass transit connection to La Guardia airport. We will see what happens in future discussions.


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## Danib62 (Oct 17, 2021)

People need to drop this awful ferry idea. People aren’t going to take a subway to walk to a ferry to walk to a shuttle bus to get to their terminal. Might as well just invest more in the existing SBS options than flush money into the East River with that idea.


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## Seaboard92 (Oct 17, 2021)

See this is when I lived in a place like China they see a problem and they just build it. While there are several flaws to this method the one thing that isn't flawed is they get stuff done. I think one of our largest problems in transit projects is the consultant class. We get bogged down hiring all of these people to study stuff to death instead of just building the thing were trying to build. It's rail transport it's existed since the 1830s basically everything you need to know has already been researched and developed. Just build it. Yes it will annoy people but ultimately it is for the greater good. We used to be a nation that built things for the greater good. Now we can't seam to build anything that is productive and useful for a large amount of people.


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## adamj023 (Oct 17, 2021)

Anyone comparing a rogue communist regime like China to the USA doesn’t understand what our country is about. Also to note, in China, a homeowner didn’t want a home demolished so in China they built the highway right around the house. 









Highway built around house of woman who refused to move


Think living near a highway is tough? Try living between two. A new freeway was built around a house in Guagnzhou, China, after the owner, Ms. Liang, refused to move. See the 107-square-foot proper…




nypost.com





The Chinese are brutal and repressive.


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## joelkfla (Oct 17, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Anyone comparing a rogue communist regime like China to the USA doesn’t understand what our country is about. Also to note, in China, a homeowner didn’t want a home demolished so in China they built the highway right around the house.
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But the point about overanalyzing with multiple layers of consultants is certainly valid. Here in Orlando, they had to hire a 3rd consultant to settle a battle between consultants for opposing parties. Lots of money wasted.


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## saxman (Oct 20, 2021)

Extending the Astoria line makes the most sense but is being blocked by NIMBY's in the area. Seems so odd in a city with a huge subway system though.


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## joelkfla (Oct 20, 2021)

saxman said:


> Extending the Astoria line makes the most sense but is being blocked by NIMBY's in the area. Seems so odd in a city with a huge subway system though.


The proposal was for an elevated line, so there would have been a lot of impact, both noise and visual.


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## jis (Oct 20, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> The proposal was for an elevated line, so there would have been a lot of impact, both noise and visual.


Unfortunately, New Yorkers have essentially zero experience with modern elevated lines with sound barriers that are now all over the place in Asia. To a New Yorker an elevated line is like the 7 or the existing Astoria Line. So they are overly negative on elevated that is not really justified in the 21st century. This is a problem in the US in many walks of life not just elevated transportation infrastructures, and indeed it is part of the problem faced in the public minds by railroads in general.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2021)

If they must build an Airtrain like the JFK one, for La Guardia, it would make a heck of a lot more sense to build one over Grand Central Parkway - Brooklyn Queens Expressway - Broadway to Woodside LIRR. Provides the most connectivity. Makes way more sense than building one to Willets Point anyday which connects to basically infrequent LIRR service and 7, which is one of the more crowded lines in the system. Without Cuomo's railroading it is unlikely that anyone would have chosen that alternative anyway.


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## adamj023 (Oct 24, 2021)

Too expensive, and too complicated. If the ferry idea can’t make it, the best solution for a mass transit would be to improve existing bus connections. The Hell’s gate Amtrak line is the closest by Astoria Boulevard. That would be the best connection that could be made if an Air Train was somehow feasible requiring eminent domain and building a station there for the airtrain to the airport. There are four tracks and one could add a stop for the La guardia airtrain on that route. The air train would have to be built by Grand Central parkway and Astoria Boulevard. I don’t know if that is possible.




jis said:


> If they must build an Airtrain like the JFK one, for La Guardia, it would make a heck of a lot more sense to build one over Grand Central Parkway - Brooklyn Queens Expressway - Broadway to Woodside LIRR. Provides the most connectivity. Makes way more sense than building one to Willets Point anyday which connects to basically infrequent LIRR service and 7, which is one of the more crowded lines in the system. Without Cuomo's railroading it is unlikely that anyone would have chosen that alternative anyway.


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## joelkfla (Oct 24, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Too expensive, and too complicated. If the ferry idea can’t make it, the best solution for a mass transit would be to improve existing bus connections. The Hell’s gate Amtrak line is the closest by Astoria Boulevard. That would be the best connection that could be made if an Air Train was somehow feasible requiring eminent domain and building a station there for the airtrain to the airport. There are four tracks and one could add a stop for the La guardia airtrain on that route. The air train would have to be built by Grand Central parkway and Astoria Boulevard. I don’t know if that is possible.


The JFK AirTrain is actually a people mover, not a metro, so it is relatively light weight and has a very small footprint:



They could probably squeeze it into the median of GCP just like they did on the Van Wyck, relocating lanes in places.


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## jis (Oct 24, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> The JFK AirTrain is actually a people mover, not a metro, so it is relatively light weight and has a very small footprint:
> View attachment 25112
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> They could probably squeeze it into the median of GCP just like they did on the Van Wyck, relocating lanes in places.


That is exactly my point. And we have already heard from folks unfamiliar with modern elevated transitway.


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## saxman (Oct 24, 2021)

More Subway extension talk. Maybe there is more support after all?

NYC subway extension to LaGuardia idea gains steam after Cuomo’s AirTrain nixed


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## neroden (Oct 24, 2021)

Apparently the "community group" in Astoria which led the opposition in a previous decade is currently *endorsing* an Astoria line extension (can't remember where I read that or what the name of the group was) so I really think there is a much bigger chance of such an extension now.


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## adamj023 (Oct 24, 2021)

Amtrak has a station for Newark liberty airport on the Northeast Corridor. The hells gate line can also be found on the Bronx Queens expressway. It would allow for a direct train into Manhattan.

Don’t know what solution they will choose if any. Central Queens doesn’t benefit from the N extension or the hells gate line or a ferry solution.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2021)

Here is a good comparison of the various proposals that are floating around today, and the original 1990 proposal is also included...









For LaGuardia, an AirTrain that will save almost no one any time


» New York City’s LaGuardia Airport is its rail-inaccessible stepchild. A proposal to spend half a billion dollars on a new transit link there, however, may do little for most of the region. …



www.thetransportpolitic.com


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## John819 (Oct 25, 2021)

Prior to the pandemic the LIRR and the subway were operating a more than 100% capacity in rush hours. Where would you put the LGA passengers? Building an additional access point to Manhattan would be far too costly.


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## adamj023 (Oct 25, 2021)

The Jackson Heights line is also a possibility in addition to the Hells gate line.

To build a Manhattan line, you would need to build a station on the Hells gate line as one example as the tracks are on upper level and have elevators, escalators and stairs. Easily doable if you acquire property nearby. Air train would connect over there with the air train connecting at that location. Not much different than the way the airtrain connection works at Jamaica station now to the LIRR For connections. There are several possible ways to engineer an appprorpriate air train connection to la guardia airport but they will cost a lot and take lots of time to build and still won’t benefit all of NYC as many places still won’t benefit from using the air train.


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## John819 (Oct 25, 2021)

Remember that to get from Queens to Manhattan by rail you have four tunnel tubes to NYP and soon two to NYG. I doubt these have any room at rush hour. 

For the subway you have the Astoria line, the Flushing line, and the Queens Boulevard line, all at full capacity at their East River tunnels.


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## adamj023 (Oct 25, 2021)

There are loads of possibilities to build an air train for better connections than the previous connection at Willets point to LIRR and the 7 Subway line.

Most people come to La Guardia from Manhattan and also other boroughs of NYC and going to Willets point out east would benefit the least amount of people and also would have been prone to flooding and environmental issues. I believe one can integrate multiple different lines into a desirable solution that would benefit more people including subway and train lines that are nearby and also possible ferry service. We will see what happens. But as those plans require extensive construction, it will take many years and more studies to be done so it will likely be a long time before anything is done. This could turn out like the bridge over the Long Island sound to Connecticut project which has never materialized.


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## Deni (Oct 26, 2021)

If we actually invested in infrastructure in this country they would build a new subway line from Flushing to LGA (and another section that stays under Astoria Blvd bypassing LGA) then into Manhattan under 96th St. Have one line join the 2nd Ave subway and another continue along 96th to the UWS and head south on a new Columbus/9th Ave subway. Fast connection to Manhattan for LGA users. Another option from Flushing, where the 7 Train can be almost full just from the origin station. More capacity in Manhattan with a new subway line. The 2nd Ave subway would actually go somewhere (but the Bronx extension still needs to be built too). Pipe dream I know, we'd rather spend our money on freeway interchanges.


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## John819 (Oct 26, 2021)

The New York City area is the natural habitat of the NIMBYs and the BANANAS (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anybody). By the time any new major construction could pass planning, environmental review, political issues, and obtain financing, it would be twenty years. The Second Avenue Subway was proposed in 1920 and opened (partially) in 2017.


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## daybeers (Oct 27, 2021)

John819 said:


> The New York City area is the natural habitat of the NIMBYs and the BANANAS (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anybody). By the time any new major construction could pass planning, environmental review, political issues, and obtain financing, it would be twenty years. The Second Avenue Subway was proposed in 1920 and opened (partially) in 2017.


Nope, those aren't New Yorkers, those are NIMBYs and the MTA. Look at who's doing the complaining and who drives cars vs. uses transit in the city and then get back to me.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 27, 2021)

John819 said:


> The New York City area is the natural habitat of the NIMBYs and the BANANAS (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anybody).


 That's why the New York City area is so full of...well, buildings.


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## jis (Oct 27, 2021)

John819 said:


> Remember that to get from Queens to Manhattan by rail you have four tunnel tubes to NYP and soon two to NYG. I doubt these have any room at rush hour.


It is hard to tell whether something that has not seen a single train run through it yet is at full capacity. In any case a significant proportion of the trains that will run through the new East River Tubes to GCT will come from the East River Tubes to Penn Station. So much so that they will make room for a few tph for the MNRR service to Penn Station. But still there will be significant capacity left to be filled at rush hours and they will be not so full at hours other than the two rush ones in morning and evening of weekdays. And all that also depends on classic pre-pandemic rush hour actuallt returning too, something yet to be seen.

So it is really not as open and shut a case as you seem to think it is.


> For the subway you have the Astoria line, the Flushing line, and the Queens Boulevard line, all at full capacity at their East River tunnels.


Again only at a few rush hours. There is plenty of capacity at other hours.


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## neroden (Oct 28, 2021)

John819 said:


> Prior to the pandemic the LIRR and the subway were operating a more than 100% capacity in rush hours.


This isn't accurate.

Certain lines, like the Lexington Avenue Line (East Side IRT) have been running over 100% capacity frequently. The N/W line to Astoria, which would be extended to Laguardia under this proposal, was NOT one of the over-capacity lines.


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## adamj023 (Nov 17, 2021)

STATEMENT FROM THE PORT AUTHORITY OF NEW YORK & NEW JERSEY



A new report is due out for best solutions for La Guardia airport transit. There is a good balance of players now involved from competent people. So hopefully we get a very good consensus as to what is possible.


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## jis (Mar 3, 2022)

Here is the news about the new report from PANYNJ









Port Authority reveals possible alternatives to LaGuardia AirTrain | amNewYork


the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has released a set of alternative mass transit options could connect travelers to LaGuardia Airport.




www.amny.com





A branch from the Astoria Subway Line using elevated alignment over the RoW of GCP is prominently mentioned.


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## joelkfla (Mar 3, 2022)

jis said:


> A branch from the Astoria Subway Line using elevated alignment over the RoW of BQE is prominently mentioned.


Grand Central Pkwy., not Brooklyn Queens Expressway.


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## jis (Mar 3, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> Grand Central Pkwy., not Brooklyn Queens Expressway.


Oh right you are. Fixed in the original.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 4, 2022)

The branch of the N line sounds good. It has good connectivity in Manhattan with other subway lines. Only drawback is Ditmars Blvd. loses service as it only has the W with this plan. The version extending the line along 31st st. and 19th ave, would avoid this but I suspect there would be a lot of NIMBY issues vs. something running along GCP.


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## joelkfla (Mar 4, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> The branch of the N line sounds good. It has good connectivity in Manhattan with other subway lines. Only drawback is Ditmars Blvd. loses service as it only has the W with this plan. The version extending the line along 31st st. and 19th ave, would avoid this but I suspect there would be a lot of NIMBY issues vs. something running along GCP.


In 2018, the last year for which ridership numbers are posted on the MTA website, 41% of Astoria line riders went to Ditmars. A 50% cut in service to that one station seems reasonable.

If there's track capacity in Manhattan, perhaps they could reactivate the center express track and send a few express trains to Ditmars during peak times.


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