# Your Experiences on Pre-Amtrak Trains?



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 10, 2017)

I wasn't born yet on A-Day. I remember reading on this newsgroup some people discuss experiences on trains pre-Amtrak. Please feel free to share your experiences on this thread.

Warning: By posting here, you are revealing you're old enough to experience pre-Amtrak trains.


----------



## railiner (Mar 11, 2017)

Growing up here, in New York, my first rail experience was my mother taking me on shopping trips from our home in Brooklyn, into Manhattan aboard the BMT subway, as far back as I can remember. I quickly learned the pleasure of the "railfan's window", looking out the front of the train. On weekends, when my father was off, we used the family car for all travel, so I never got exposure to 'real railroads'. The only exception was us putting my grandfather on the train to Florida a couple of winters, and getting my first glimpse of the original Pennsylvania Station. I recall the sights and sounds almost like it was yesterday....the stainless steel cars (must have been a SAL train?), the steam wafting up between the cars and the platform edge, the luxurious inside of his Pullman roomette,the sounds from the magnificent GG-1's blowers, and bell as it glided out....

That was in around 1955...

More subway riding thru the years, and occasional views of Long Island Rail Road trains passing when motoring on Long Island.

Then my first glimpse of Grand Central Terminal in the late '50's to meet my visiting cousin coming down from Worcester, Ma. What a magnificent terminal that was, When we saw him off, got a look inside his New Haven "American Flyer" coach, and was intrigued by it having a restroom and a water fountain ("bubbler", in New England parlance)... My cousin rode to Springfield, and connected with a NYC train to Worcester. When it was my turn to visit him, my family decided to send me (I was a few years younger) on a no-change Trailways of New England bus, from the Port Authority Bus Terminal, (where I now work),to avoid the transfer enroute. That was my first experience riding a long distance coach, and I became a bus fan...

Fast forward to 1966....I was going thru Tech School, at Chanute AFB, Rantoul, Il,..and my first weekend pass to Chicago was spent getting there on a Greyhound Scenicruiser, on a four and a half hour local schedule up US-45. I enjoyed it very much.

The next pass I got, my buddy insisted we take the train...So we board the Illinois Central 'Louisiane'....

The first thing I noticed as the train approached was the beautiful sound of its chime air horn....then the figure '8' pattern cast by its Mars headlight...then when climbing aboard, the long ago fragrance of the steam heating, I recalled from seeing my grandfather off....

I was sitting at the window seat, but facing my buddy sitting next to me, engrossed in our conversation....after a while he casually asked me to look out the window...

I was stunned to see we were rolling along already. Being used to riding subways, I never felt the throttle artist's imperceptible start of the train....

Soon we were rolling along parallel US-45 at 100 mph....the vehicles we were passing appeared to be going backwards. We arrived Central Station in Chicago in less than half the time the bus took...

After coming home from the service, I reverted to being a bus fan, and for a while, I had a girlfriend living in Philadelphia, whom I visited every weekend by bus.

I also had a friend who was a bus, rail, and airliner fan, who introduced me to the fascinating aspects of those modes...

We took several fan trips together...

I still expressed my preference for bus, and he said, he would have to show me what I was missing...

So he took me on "The Convincer"....

We flew to Chicago on a Northwest Orient B707, stopping in Detroit.

We then went to Union Station and boarded the combined Burlington Vista-Dome Afternoon Twin Cities Zephyr/Northern Pacific Vista-Dome North Coast Limited/Great Northern Great-Dome Empire Builder stretching out the length of Track 28. There must have been at least 7 domes on that fantastic consist.

We rode it to Minneapolis. Had dinner in the NP diner, and saw the various lounges and other cars on the train (the crew was kind to let a couple of fans view the Pullman areas as well).

We then rode a Jefferson bus down to Osceola, and caught the CZ back to Chicago, and flew home on a United Super DC-8-61....

Yes....I was convinced, and have been a railfan ever since...

When A-Day was approaching, I went on a marathon effort to ride some of the routes that would be losing service, some major, some obscure...

Like the Washington Buffalo Express via York, Williamsport

The Butte Special from Salt Lake City to Butte

The Wabash Cannonball from St. Louis to Detroit

The Lake Cities from Hoboken to Chicago

The CZ over the Western Pacific

I think I've rambled enough for now.....


----------



## Bob Dylan (Mar 11, 2017)

I've been riding Passenger trains in the US since 1944 when I was born in Alpine, Tx on the SP "Sunset Route."

Since I've been on so many long gone and sadly missed trains, Ill just mention a few that stand out in my memory! ( which is fading fast!)

Steam still ruled the rails during my early days, and with troop trains and many Mail and Milk trains running, the rails were busy 24/7.

We took several "day trips" on locals ( SP ran 8 Passenger trains a day during that time)to El Paso.

My first LD Train ride ( which I barely remdmber) was in Jan of 1945 with my mom to visit my dad who was stationed in McCook,Neb training on B-29s before heading to the Pacific.

We caught the Sunset Ltd.in Alpine (Coach)to El Paso, changed,to a Santa Fe unnamed local to Albuqurque, changed to another local to Denver, spent the night at the Brown Hotel and the next day rode in Day Coach to McCook arriving at 400am with the temperature being -20!!

Later on the "crack trains" I rode include the Super Chief,El Capitan,the Broadway Ltd., the Southern Crescent( mostly in Slumber Coaches),the Texas Eagle,the Texas Special,the Texas Chief and the City of San Francisco.


----------



## Palmetto (Mar 12, 2017)

Only a few for me: a short trip on the DLW "Lake Cities" [i think] from Tobyhanna, PA down the mountain to Scranton. Then a Penn Central trip from South Bend to New York. Multiple trips between Grand Central and Boston on the New Haven Railroad, usually in a parlor car. I grew up in Boston and Maine territory, but never once had the chance to ride one of their longer distance trains.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Mar 12, 2017)

When I was 11, in 1967, my family moved from GA to DE. Mom, 2 sisters, 1 cat, 1 dog and I took the train from Augusta to Wilmington. I only have vague memories, but they have stuck with me and when I was in my 30's or 40's I must have heard about the CZ because I remember suggesting to my husband we take the train out to visit a friend of his near SLC. Unfortunately, we never had the time or money.  (My first Amtrak LD trip, in 2011, included the CZ to Provo and I met up with this friend of my late husband while visiting my daughter).


----------



## jis (Mar 12, 2017)

My first ride in US trains was in the Sept 1965 first on NH Boston to NY Penn on the Senator and then on PRR from NY to Washington on the Congressional. The return to Boston was on a through run on the Senator.

Things were really broken on both trains with A/C barely working and the toilets were a mess. The recline did not work on some of the seats. We were dismayed and surprised that the A/C Express trains back in India, which were supposedly modeled after American trains worked so much better!


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 12, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> Only a few for me: a short trip on the DLW "Lake Cities" [i think] from Tobyhanna, PA down the mountain to Scranton.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Cities_(train)

I grew up in Wilkes Barre, really close to Scranton. I didn't really get into Amtrak until I went to the University of Illinois because Wilkes Barre/Scranton had no Amtrak presence for me growing up.


----------



## jphjaxfl (Mar 13, 2017)

I was 22 in 1971 when Amtrak started. My Dad worked for the Peoria and Eastern division of the Big Four Railroad which was part of the New York Central System. We lived in Joliet and Peoria, Il until 1961 and traveled by train frequrently. There was no question about the mode of travel - it was always by train. The choice was which railroad and which train. My first trip was on Rock Island's Rocky Mountain Rocket from Joliet to Council Bluffs, IA when I was less than a month old. My maternal Grandmother lived in Council Bluffs so we were back and forth between Peoria and Council Bluffs quite often either on the Burlington through Galesburg or Rock Island through Bureau Jct. In the 1960s in anticipation of train offs and start of Amtrak, I rode lots of trains. After Amtrak started, I rode lots of trains. Its really the best way to travel.


----------



## jphjaxfl (Mar 13, 2017)

jis said:


> My first ride in US trains was in the Sept 1965 first on NH Boston to NY Penn on the Senator and then on PRR from NY to Washington on the Congressional. The return to Boston was on a through run on the Senator.
> 
> Things were really broken on both trains with A/C barely working and the toilets were a mess. The recline did not work on some of the seats. We were dismayed and surprised that the A/C Express trains back in India, which were supposedly modeled after American trains worked so much better!


The last 5 or 6 years of the Penn Central and pre Central passenger trains of the Pennsylvania, New York Central and New Haven were really bad. I rode that Penn Texas west out of Pittsburgh one night in late March or early April. The coach car was so cold that ice formed on the inside of the window and you could see you breath. There was still a full Dining Car and that coffee in the morning sure tasted good. They were definitely trying to chase off passengers.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Mar 13, 2017)

As a follow up to jphjaxfl's post about running off passengers so they could axe passenger trains, I rode on many a Espee train through West Texas that had cars so old that Pancho Villa had used them during the Mexican Revolution ( just a slight exaggaration), bathrooms that were locked/"out of order",while others were so filthy you thought you were in a fourth world country!

Of course there was No heat when it cold and open windows were the AC and in addition the seat backs all seemed to be broken.

The final straw was what they did to the once proud Sunset Ltd.with the infamous Vending Machine Car and taking the Sleepers off till the Government forced them to return them.

As for Reservations, lots of trains that ran empty were marked "Sold Out" and agents actually told potential customers to try Greyhound or even to Fly!!!And the OTPs were atrocious with the Sunset often running up to 24 Hours late!

Unhappy days indeed on the Railroads, except for the few good ones that actually tried to run good passenger trains like Santa Fe and Southern!


----------



## zephyr17 (Mar 13, 2017)

Slight correction about the return of the sleeping cars. The ICC couldn't force them to return dining and sleeping car service to the Sunset, but SP wanted to reduce the train frequency to 3 days a week. The ICC and SP cut a deal that the ICC allowed the frequency reduction in return for returning sleeping and dining cars to the train. That was in 1970.


----------



## railiner (Mar 13, 2017)

Another one of those "quality of service" deals the ICC made, was with the Norfolk and Western....in exchange for permission to cut a lot of service, the Railway. seriously upgraded the remaining train on their Norfolk-Cincinnati mainline, the Pocahontas. The ran a classy operation, with sleeper's, diner, lounge, and for the first time, a dome coach (acquired from their recently merged Wabash). They presented each passenger with a very nice amenities kit, with Welcome letter, timetable, route guide, luggage tags, stationery, and other goodies...


----------



## VAtrainfan (Mar 13, 2017)

I wonder if this counts:

I was born about 14 months after A-day, but in the early 1980s a restored Pocahontas consist with a J locomotive made a promotional run and my 5th grade class went for a joy ride between Wakefield (boarded at the grade crossing at W. Main St. and Railroad Ave) and Petersburg (disembarked at the old Walnut Mall on S. Crater Rd, not the PTB station).


----------



## jis (Mar 13, 2017)

railiner said:


> They presented each passenger with a very nice amenities kit, with Welcome letter, timetable, route guide, luggage tags, stationery, and other goodies...


Once upon a time Amtrak used to do that. I have one or two of those folders of yore sitting in my Amtrak memorabilia collection. Picked them up on Broadway Limited and Empire Builder.


----------



## Palmetto (Mar 13, 2017)

jis said:


> My first ride in US trains was in the Sept 1965 first on NH Boston to NY Penn on the Senator and then on PRR from NY to Washington on the Congressional. The return to Boston was on a through run on the Senator.
> 
> Things were really broken on both trains with A/C barely working and the toilets were a mess. The recline did not work on some of the seats. We were dismayed and surprised that the A/C Express trains back in India, which were supposedly modeled after American trains worked so much better!


I rode mainly from 66-68. The parlor cars were in pretty good shape, and I can't relate to your experience. However, one Christmas eve, I took the Federal up to Boston in coach in a major snow storm. They disconnected the GG1 at New Haven, the car got cold. After about an hour and a half, they attached an FL-9, and we got the heat back. Arrived Boston three hours late.


----------



## railiner (Mar 14, 2017)

While the Penn Central was pretty much "guilty as charged", in generally poor service, and deteriorated equipment, poor track, etc....

There was a notable exception when it came to The Broadway Limited....that train still showed some semblance of proprietary pride, and received the best of what equipment was available, and good service from its crews. The meals served in its twin-unit diner, were still excellent. And it was "given the railroad" by the train dispatcher's....

A bit later, the Metroliner's became the prime focus of attention, until A-Day.


----------



## railiner (Mar 14, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Unhappy days indeed on the Railroads, except for the few good ones that actually tried to run good passenger trains like Santa Fe and Southern!


.

Another railroad that wrestled with keeping their own service, or throwing in the towel and joining Amtrak, was the Seaboard Coast Line....

Its "Silver" and "Champion" trains were very nice to the end, and especially its "Champaign Train", the seasonal Florida Special, with its fabulous Recreation Car, and dome sleeper (Richmond-Miami)..

And the Illinois Central. led by VP-Passenger Traffic, Paul Reistrup, (later Amtrak's second president), made a valiant effort to upgrade its remaining trains.

Honorable mention should also be extended to the UP, BN, D&RGW, MILW, KCS, .C&O/B&O, D&H, and GTW.......They all were pretty much "pro-passenger" until the end...


----------



## jis (Mar 14, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > My first ride in US trains was in the Sept 1965 first on NH Boston to NY Penn on the Senator and then on PRR from NY to Washington on the Congressional. The return to Boston was on a through run on the Senator.
> ...


I can't relate to any Parlor Car experience since we were at that time not in a financial position to travel by one. We were on a very tight budget trying to cover as much of the US northeast as we could in the limited time we had. For our trip to Niagara Falls from Boston rail came out to be too expensive and inconvenient, timetable-wise. So we took Greyhound instead. And the trip on the Super Scenicruisers was actually quite pleasant.


----------



## railiner (Mar 14, 2017)

Loved those parlor cars back then...some operated by The Pullman Company, others by individual railroads. The nice thing about them was the single seat on each side of the aisle, with a drop down, wall mounted table. The seats themselves were usually Heywood-Wakefield "Sleepy Hollow", reclining, rotating seats that were supremely comfortable...some had adjustable wings on the headrest, as well.

The service provided by the attendant was great....if you wanted a drink, or anything, all you had to do was push a little button ....


----------



## Palmetto (Mar 14, 2017)

And on the New Haven, your shoes were shined as you neared either end of the trip, if you wanted such. My favorite was the Merchants Limited, and it carried 3 parlor cars and a dining car. Day roomettes and drawing rooms [ good for 3] were also available. Every seat was a surcharge of $2.67 over the coach fare. The train left both Boston and Grand Central at 5:00 PM, and arrived at both at 9:15 PM. Great service.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 14, 2017)

Wow, a lot of posts here! I'm wondering if the average age of an Amtrak Unlimited poster is well over 50. Maybe it's because trains are nowhere near as popular in the 80's/90's as it was back then (with some exceptions like Acela and California trains among others) and with planes being more popular not many people these days would even think about going from Philly to Chicago or Philly to Florida on a train.


----------



## railiner (Mar 14, 2017)

The Merchants Limited, was the top train on the New Haven...IIRC, at one time it carried nothing but parlors....it ran between Grand Central Terminal and Boston.

My favorite train on the PRR side of the corridor,, were the all-new in 1952, Congressional Limited's. Their stainless steel Budd equipment contrasted with the usual Tuscan colored PRR trains.

The Afternoon Congressional made the New York to Washington trip in 3:35, pulled by a GG-1.

It carried unique day coaches, with smoking lounges at one end, it carried twin-unit dining cars, multiple parlor cars, each with a drawing room, tavern lounge cars, observation lounge cars, 7 room conference cars, and public telephone booths.


----------



## railiner (Mar 14, 2017)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Wow, a lot of posts here! I'm wondering if the average age of an Amtrak Unlimited poster is well over 50. Maybe it's because trains are nowhere near as popular in the 80's/90's as it was back then (with some exceptions like Acela and California trains among others) and with planes being more popular not many people these days would even think about going from Philly to Chicago or Philly to Florida on a train.


To answer your question....have you taken any fantrips lately? Say, the Amtrak Autumn Express, for example?

Just look at the demographics....

I have been a member of many types of transportation historical societies, and I'm sorry to say, the membership in most of these, despite attempts to attract new blood into the organization has been dwindling....

With some exceptions, of course....most younger people today just are not interested in old trains, old planes, old cars,old ships....

they are much more into video and computer activities....


----------



## DCAKen (Mar 15, 2017)

Back in January 1970, my family moved from Whitefish MT to northern Illinois. Since they thought passenger rail wouldn't be around for much longer, my parents decided to take the Empire Builder. Since there was eight of us (plus one cat), we had several adjoining rooms. I was six at the time, so many of the details have faded. I do remember sitting in the dome car at night and watching the lights of the towns go by.


----------



## MARC Rider (Mar 15, 2017)

Growing up in Philly, (and in the western suburbs), nearly all of my pre-Amtrak rail experiences involved the PRR or Penn Central. When I was in High School and had friends in the northern suburbs, I would ride the Reading occasionally.

Starting at about age 8 (circa 1961), I would ride the Paoli Local from Bryn Mawr to Merion to go to Hebrew School. When I was 9 or 10, my parents once dropped me off at 30th St. and I rode a local train to visit my grandparents on Baltimore. I think it stopped in Wilmington, Newark, Elkton, Perryville, Havre De Grace and Aberdeen. My grandparents picked me up at the station. On another trip, my parents dropped me off at Baltimore and I remember buying breakfast in the dining car, getting off at 30th St. going upstairs and taking the Paoli Local home, where I hung out with a friend of my mother's until my parents arrived later in the day the fetch me. After about age 11, I was allowed to take the Paoli Local all the way downtown to go go shopping. I would also ride the "P&W and subway," aka the Norristown High Speed Line and Market-Frankford elevated-subway. The summers I was 8, 9 and 10, I went to a camp in western Massachusetts and rode on the "camp train" from Grand Central to Great Barrington. This was a New Haven charter that all the camps used, and it made a whole bunch of stops north of Danbury to let kids out for various camps. This trip also involved a PRR trip with the family up to New York, and I may have actually passed through the old Pennsylvania Station, but I have no memories of that. I do have memories of the old PRR red passenger cars with non-reclining seats upholstered in some kind of fake velvet, no A/C and ceiling fans overhead. The last time I rode one of those old cars was on an Amtrak train in the summer of 1972, going from New York to Philly. It was painted Penn Central green, we were going pretty fast, and that was a bit of a thrill ride, as I don't think the car was built to go that fast. It was pretty noisy, too.

In 1968, I went to Philmont with the Scouts, and though the organizers avoided using the PRR train from Philly to Chicago, based on bitter experience, we rode the Denver Zephyr from Chicago to Denver, and were then bussed down to New Mexico. Even though they put our charter group in older cars, and fed us lower-quality food in a special dining car, I could tell that the CB&Q ran nicer trains than the PRR. On the way home, I got tired of the dining car chow, so I went to the "Chuckwagon" grill car under one of the domes and ordered a $5 personal pizza. I'll leave it to the reader to find an inflation calculator and see what $5 in 1968 is worth today. Then I sat up in the dark dome and watched signals ahead go from gree to red as we rolled through Nebraska at night.

During the years 1968-1971, I did a lot of joyriding along the NEC. Never made it to DC, but I would go to NY on spring break with friends or down to Baltimore to visit family. Sometimes I just rode to Trenton or Wilmington after school. You could ride the regional trains with a SEPTA commuter ticket, so it was pretty cheap, and I got to see a lot of different kinds of equipment. My favorite were the New Haven cars run on the through trains to Boston. They seemed like they were in better shape than the PRR stuff, though sometimes the regional NY-Washington trains were equipped with long distance equipment (the equivalent of Amfleet II's). I also rode the Keystone "tubular trains" as well as some streamlined stainless steel equipment with 1949 dates on the builder's plate that seemed to have been refurbished in the 60s in the style of the SEPTA Silverliners. I guess back then the PRR/Penn Central had a lot of surplus rolling stock as they were abandoning long distance trains on a regular basis. Naturally, when they introduced the Metroliner, I rode one of them as soon as I could find some free time. On one of my joyrides to Wilmington, the engineer let me come into the cab and look over his shoulder and see the speedometer hit 110. In all, I found the service on the NEC to be OK, at least as far as reliability was concerned. It certainly wasn't as fast or frequent as it is now. My mother would ride down to see her parents and come back complaining about how the train stopped in the middle of nowhere in Maryland for a half hour or so. One thing I regret not having done was fork over the extra $$ for the parlor car. I think for a NY-Philly trip it was a $1.50 upcharge on a $4.50 ticket. Now we meekley pay a $100 upcharge on a $150 Acela ticket to ride first class, but from what I've heard, the old-time parlor car service was better. I guess $1.50 was a lot of money in 1968, except when I was hungry on the Denver Zephyr, hungry enough to spend $5 for a pizza.


----------



## railiner (Mar 16, 2017)

You bring back great memories of when I used to "commute" to visit my girlfriend in Chestnut Hill....

I recall the Tuscan heavyweight P70 coaches, as well as the MP-54 MU.s....and the modern Silverliner's. I used to ride buses to Philly, and she met me at the terminal, and later, took PC, and connected at North Philadelphia for the Chestnut Hill west line....

I used to know a Reading Conductor, who ran the Hatboro local...he took me 'fanning' all over Philly, on the P&W bullet cars, SEPTA subways, and surface cars, PC and Reading locals, the Lindenwold Line, Penn-Reading Seashore Line, and his favorite...the Wall Streeter on the Reading and CNJ to Newark, NJ.

I vaguely remember the Keystone experimental train...it ended service in 1968, the year that I really got interested in trains. It's design led the way to the Pioneer III and Silverliner's, and eventually the Metroliner's and Amfleet design...

When I was working for Trailways in Colorado, we operated many charters for the Boy Scouts of America, transporting passengers from the Santa Fe trains at Raton, to Philmont Scout Ranch....as a former Scout myself, my family could not afford to send me there, but I did spend a couple of weeks for three summers at the NY Council's 
Ten Mile River scout camp near Narrowsburg, NY (within whistle range of the Erie RR)....


----------



## hankster211 (Mar 16, 2017)

The Southern Railways, Tennessean, roundtrip at least a dozen times in the fifties and sixties from Knoxville to Memphis, my Dad's hometown.

The Southern Railways, Carolina Special, roundtrip from my hometown, Clinton TN, to Cincinnati with my Little League Team to watch a Major League game at old Crosley Field in 1962,

As a 5 or 6 year old in 1955-56, from Knoxville to Trenton NJ with my mother to visit my Aunt (I wish I could remember the specific trains and connections but it was too long ago, and I didn't pay much attention back in those days. I do remember being pulled by a Steam Locomotive at least part of the way)

As a teenager, in 1965 from Jacksonville FL to Knoxville TN. (I could swear I changed trains in Ooltewah TN, but have never been able to confirm which trains I took by looking at vintage timetables)


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't know if anyone's old enough (and is willing to admit it) to know when air travel became available to a mass audience in the US. There is still a market for short distance trains so I don't think the interstate highway is as responsible for killing the popularity of rail travel than the airplane. I'm guessing those who were alive before Amtrak caught trains past their prim. By the 60's I believe the Pennsylvania Railroad and NY Central merged and they were canceling trains left and right.


----------



## chakk (Mar 16, 2017)

I can certainly remember riding B&O and C&NW LDTs in the 1950's when they were not past their prime.

But one of my two favorite trips was in Sept 1969 (at the end of a summer job before resuming college) traveling by myself all first class on a circle trip around the USA. B&O Capitol LImited from Washington, D.C. to Chicago; Northern Pacific's North Coast LImited to Seattle, a pool train to Portland, Southern Pacific's Cascade to Sacramento, California Zephyr to Chicago, and the remnants of the Broadway Limited back to Washington, D.C.

One hotel night in Chicago and in Seattle. The rest of the nights in sleepers on the various trains.

Took about 100 photographs (all Kodachrome slides) on that journey.


----------



## jis (Mar 16, 2017)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I don't know if anyone's old enough (and is willing to admit it) to know when air travel became available to a mass audience in the US. There is still a market for short distance trains so I don't think the interstate highway is as responsible for killing the popularity of rail travel than the airplane. I'm guessing those who were alive before Amtrak caught trains past their prim. By the 60's I believe the Pennsylvania Railroad and NY Central merged and they were canceling trains left and right.


It seems like you have a general problem with growing old among your various bigoted positions 

Anyhow, Air Travel became available to the general public in small steps starting with the time when the large capacity aircraft like 747 were introduced around 1969, and finally in a big way only around the time of Carter and then Reagan administration following the full deregulation. Before that in general it was a pricey proposition, though available generally, and availed of mostly by those that could afford it.

Air travel has never been the primary competition of passenger rail. It is highways and cars that did them in more than air travel.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Mar 16, 2017)

railiner said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, a lot of posts here! I'm wondering if the average age of an Amtrak Unlimited poster is well over 50. Maybe it's because trains are nowhere near as popular in the 80's/90's as it was back then (with some exceptions like Acela and California trains among others) and with planes being more popular not many people these days would even think about going from Philly to Chicago or Philly to Florida on a train.
> ...


I am really much to young to comment in this thread but you gave me an avenue in which to. Most trips I work the average age in first class is above 60. In coach I would say the average is 40s. We get a lot of young families. The real problem with excursions and charters is most people would rather be trackside and film it then ride the train.

But to talk about railroad owned trains.

The Santa Fe kept incredibly high standards. And had their proposal been approved they likely would have stayed out of Amtrak. What they wanted to do was akin to the Union Pacific "City of Everywhere" running all of their remaining trains combined to Kansas City where the Texas Chief and San Fransisco Chief would split off while the Super Chief/El Capitan continued on the passenger main. They would then recombine with the SFC somewhere in New Mexico and run combined to I believe Barstow. Where again they would diverge and go to their end points.

I'm shocked no one has mentioned the classiest train of the Amtrak era. The Southern Railway's Southern Crescent. Or the remains of the California Zephyr the rio grande zephyr.

The most pro passenger railroads would have to include the B&O whom was constantly maintaining good standards on their remaining service. The SCL also ran good service. Illinois Central under Johnston was good too.


----------



## MARC Rider (Mar 16, 2017)

jis said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if anyone's old enough (and is willing to admit it) to know when air travel became available to a mass audience in the US. There is still a market for short distance trains so I don't think the interstate highway is as responsible for killing the popularity of rail travel than the airplane. I'm guessing those who were alive before Amtrak caught trains past their prim. By the 60's I believe the Pennsylvania Railroad and NY Central merged and they were canceling trains left and right.
> ...


My first airplane trip was when I was 8. No, my parents didn't drop me off at the airport, I rode down with a great aunt to visit my (other) grandparents in Miami. We flew down on a DC-7 and back on a Convair 880. A couple years later, the whole family flew down on a 4-engine prop plane, the model of which I don't remember. It was like riding a roller coaster the whole way. That was it for vacations by air when I was a kid, and my folks had above-average income. The only flying in our family was when my Dad would go off to conferences on the West Coast. All other vacations were road trips.

The only air trip I took before I went to college was with the Scouts the year after I went to Philmont, we went to the National Jamboree in Idaho. We flew out to Billings, MT on a 707, then toured through the Rockies and Yellowstone on school buses to the Jamboree site. Apparently the Philadelphia Scout council messed up the air charters and had to scramble to find us a flight home. This they did by finding some smoke-jumping outfit in Spokane Washington called Johnson Flying Services who had a DC-4 configured for passenger service. We flew that antique home 13 hours from Spokane to Philadelphia, including a fuel stop in Rockford, IL. We were told the pilot had never been east of the Mississippi, and was having trouble finding Philadelphia while crossing the Appalachians.When we finally landed at Philly, the pilot mistakenly took us to the general aviation facility rather than the terminal where everybody was waiting for us.

Aside from a trip to visit my prospective college and a trip to Israel for a gap year program, I didn't fly regularly until I started college in 1972. The only discounted plane fare available was standby tickets at about a 30% discount off regular coach fare. Around 1976 or 1976 they statred with the special pre-purchase round trip tickets, but, as jis it wasn't until the end of the Carter administration (around 1979) that the deregulation went into full swing, and I was waiting for a plane at Stapleton and thought to myself, "hey, this has all the ambiance of a bus station!" Then we had PeopleExpress, which was actually cheaper than Amtrak to fly from BWI to Newark (this was about 1982 or 1983). With BWI as my home field, I never flew much on 747s, though British Airways ran L1011s from BWI to Heathrow, and United would fly DC-10s from BWI to Denver and San Fransisco.

I agree with jis, train travel outside of the northeast was on the ropes long before there was cheap air travel. In addition to the fact that almost everybody has a car, and the government built o first class system of high-speed roadways, there was also a lot more intercity bus service than we have now, which also took advantage of those roadways. I think the cheap air fares did more to hurt intercity bus service than rail.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Mar 16, 2017)

Ditto to what jis and MARC Rider said!(I'm older than dirt and still ready to hop on 1)a train,2)a plane,3)a car4)a bus or 4)a truck to see whats around the corner or over the next hill!)


----------



## railiner (Mar 16, 2017)

All of the condition's mentioned in above posts factored into the decline of the private era rail travel....but the one thing that really accelerated its demise was the watershed event of September, 1967, when the Post Office Department, ended carrying US Mail on the nation's passenger trains--both storage mail and Railway Post Office cars.

That severe loss of passenger train revenue, resulted in a flurry of train-off applications to the ICC, and in just a few short years, the creation of Amtrak.

Incredibly, one Railway Post Office operation continued well into the Amtrak era...the New York and Washington RPO lasted until 30 June 1977. There used to be a special mail slot in the Penn Station, NY concourse to deposit "Train Mail"...


----------



## railiner (Mar 16, 2017)

Getting back to privately operated passenger trains...

Before he moved to the Illinois Central in the latter sixties, Paul Reistrup was in charge of the C&O/B&O passenger service, where he introduced many innovations...

After A-Day, the few railroads that elected not to join Amtrak were:

The Southern, because they wanted to run their own passenger trains...led by W.G. Claytor, who later became Amtrak's fourth president. The Southern Crescent combined the best features of the Southerner and Crescent Limited passenger trains, over the Southerner's all SR route from Washington to New Orleans. The train was pooled with Amtrak, to operated thru to New York, and briefly to Boston. And it did carry a thru coast-to-coast 10-6 Heritage sleeper to the Sunset Limited at New Orleans. The thru passenger's could use it as their 'hotel' for the overnite stop there, before moving on toward Los Angeles.

The train included a sleeper with a Master Bedroom (with its own shower). The train was promoted with ads showing off its fine dining car cuisine...Who remember's that memorable ad with Chef Louis Price extolling the virtue of his scratch baked biscuits? (Sadly, Mr Price was killed on the job later in a train wreck.)

The train also ran with a dome parlor car for a while from Atlanta to New Orleans. The Southern finally joined Amtrak in 1979.

The Denver and Rio Grande Western, because they were afraid of Amtrak trains 'interfering' with their freight train operations.

The Rio Grande Zephyr was a railfan favorite, and many thru Amtrak passengers elected to detour their trip on the SFZ, over the scenic 'Grande, even though needing an overnight layover in Denver...

The classic CZ Vista-Dome consist, and traditional CZ menu in the dining car helped. And the Silver Sky, the dome lounge obs sleeper, still offered bedrooms and drawing room for the day long trip....one reason people booked them was that was the only way to bring your pet along....later they took out the rooms.

They joined Amtrak in 1983.

The Rock Island, because 'they could not afford the membership fee'.

Besides their Chicago commuter service, they operated the Peoria Rocket and the Quad Cities Rocket. For a period, a private operator,Butterworth Tours, leased their former Chessie, Rio Grande, dome car 'Big Ben' to The Rock for parlor dome car service on the Quad Cities train...

Service ended in 1978.

The Georgia RR, Not sure, but probably because they also thought it cheaper to run their remaining mixed trains then pay the membership fee..

their mixed train service ended in 1983.


----------



## Palmetto (Mar 17, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Ditto to what jis and MARC Rider said!(I'm older than dirt and still ready to hop on 1)a train,2)a plane,3)a car4)a bus or 4)a truck to see whats around the corner or over the next hill!)


I like that outlook on life. BTW, my first plane ride was a DC-3 when I was about 12. Since I was born in 1943, I guess I was old enough.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Mar 17, 2017)

The Georgia Railroad stayed out of Amtrak because they were afraid of losing their tax break if they did. As long as they had passenger service they weren't required to pay state taxes. Now we're the passenger trains any good. From what I've read not really that grand.

If anyone is interested in chartering silver sky once Bill finishes it let me know I can work something out with Bill.


----------



## JayPea (Mar 17, 2017)

Palmetto said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Ditto to what jis and MARC Rider said!(I'm older than dirt and still ready to hop on 1)a train,2)a plane,3)a car4)a bus or 4)a truck to see whats around the corner or over the next hill!)
> ...


I like that attitude too, Jim! Go while you can! I just turned 57 last month; my dad passed away at 56. My brother in law died last year at 59; my wife died at 45. I've had more than my share of reminders that life is short, you never know where it's going to take you, and go while you can. 

My first trip aboard the rails was in 1963, to Chicago, then Champaign and back from Spokane with my mom and sister. I rode the North Coast Limited then and don't remember anything about that trip. I do recall bits of pieces of my next trip, though, in 1965. This time we rode the Empire Builder to Chicago from Spokane and the Abraham Lincoln to Bloomington, reversing the process going back to Spokane. I remember my sister and I spent a lot of time in the Vista Dome; we got to be away from Mom's watchful eye and she got peace and quiet, a win-win for both of us. I still recall how rough the tracks were in Montana, and, on our return home, watching in the dome as the mountains of Glacier Park came into view. And I also recall somewhere in Eastern Montana the train going by a pasture with a huge flock of sheep. The things one remembers.  It wasn't until 2009 that I took the Empire Builder again westbound from Chicago, and the view I had of the mountains of Glacier Park coming into view was exactly as I had remembered it 44 years earlier.


----------



## railiner (Mar 17, 2017)

My first airplane ride, was in June of 1966, when I went into the USAF. We were taken from the AFEES at Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn via chartered bus to JFK Int't. Airport. There we were boarded on a Braniff B707, for the one-stop flight (Dallas Love Field) to San Antonio....

I loved the entire magical experience.

After completing basic training at Lackland AFB, I was sent to Tech School at Chanute AFB, Rantoul, Il.. The summer of 1966 was notable for a major airline strike, that grounded most of the major airlines. However, the USAF contracted with a "non-sked", aka a Supplemental Air Carrier, Modern Air Transport. They did not quite live up to their name....we boarded a Douglas DC-7C (aka Seven Seas), and were served by what appeared to be the grandmothers of the young Braniff stewardesses.

We thought that we were flying to O'Hare or Lambert, but somewhere over the endless cornfields, we started our descent, and then saw the tell-tale red and white checkered water towers, We landed right on Chanute!

So instead of having three travel days, we ended up doing gruntwork in a "PATS" squadron....

Got to go home for Christmas leave, and bought my first airline ticket...I chose TWA, and boarded my second B707, for the flight to JFK.

Once my friend introduced me to the pleasures of airline-fanning, we purchased a Mohawk "Weekend Unlimited" package for an incredibly low fare, something like $35, IIRC,

you could cram as many flights as you desired into a Saturday and Sunday....you did have to reserve your entire itinerary, and unless you misconnected, no changes were permitted. So I flew around 20 flights on Mohawk Fairchild-Hiller FH227's and BAC 1-11's covering their entire routes in the Northeast...

Later on I flew on my first DC-3... Provincetown & Boston N136PB, at the time, the highest air-time aircraft in the world, from Hyannis to Boston....I see that that aircraft is still flying.

My first flight on a 747 was a short one...Canadian Pacific, F class from Montreal to Toronto. I sat in seat 1A, thinking that with the curvature up front, I might be able to press my face against the forward most window, and see a slice of forward view....unfortunately, you could not....

The biggest thrill of all was a flight on British Airways Concorde from LHR to JFK in 1998. I still have the amenities kit they gave each passenger. They also invited all passengers to take turns viewing the flight deck in flight!

When the Intrepid Sea, Air, and Space Museum received its retired Concorde from BA, I was happy to see that it was G-BOAD, the very aircraft I flew on....This aircraft also happens to be the record holder for the fastest Atlantic crossing...JFK to LHR in 2:52:59 !

Enough plane-talk for now.....


----------



## jphjaxfl (Mar 18, 2017)

railiner said:


> My first airplane ride, was in June of 1966, when I went into the USAF. We were taken from the AFEES at Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn via chartered bus to JFK Int't. Airport. There we were boarded on a Braniff B707, for the one-stop flight (Dallas Love Field) to San Antonio....
> 
> I loved the entire magical experience.
> 
> ...


I joined the Air Force in July, 1971 in Louisville, KY after graduating from college. The AF flew us from Louisville to San Antonio on an American Airlines flight with a change at Dallas Love field. I had already had a number of flights including a trip on PanAm to Europe. After Basic Training at Lackland AFB, I was transported by bus to Shepherd AFB for Medical Fundamentals, then back to Brooks AFB in San Antonio by bus where I completed the Public Health course. In mid December, 1971, I traveled by train from San Antonio to Louisville, KY and then from Louisville to Grand Forks, ND for my first and only duty station at Grand Forks AFB where I was until May, 1975 when I was discharged. I traveled from San Antonio to New Orleans on Amtrak's Sunset Limited, caroused overnight in New Orleans and caught Southern's Southern Crescent from New Orleans to Birmingham where I changed to Amtrak's Southwind. I made a 3 day stopover in Nashville and then on to Louisville. I caught the Southwind after nearly 2 weeks in the Lousiville area and headed overnight to Chicago. I caught the North Coast Hiawatha in the morning from Chicago to Minneapolis where I had a 4 hour layover before I caught the Empire Builder to Grand Forks. I had never been in Minneapolis before, but enjoyed my brief stay and Minneapolis later became my home for 20 years. In late 1971/early 1972, the Amtrak trains were very similar to the private railroad trains of pre Aday. The Southwind had gotten its through sleepers and dining car back and also had a dome coach. The food on all the trains specially the Southern Crescent was delicious and the portions served were much larger than now. Even though I was in the Air Force, I traveled by train whenever I could over the next few years.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 19, 2017)

jphjaxfl said:


> Wow, that's unheard of this day and age to have food portions smaller today than they were back then.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 28, 2017)

Looking at pre-Amtrak trains canceled on or before A-Day, I thought PRR/PC's Cincinnati Limited (http://www.american-rails.com/cinn-ltd.html) should have been kept after A-Day for a faster route from Cincinnati to the NEC.

Also serving Cincinnati was L&N's Humming Bird/Pan American between Cincinnati and New Orleans via Louisville/Nashville (http://www.american-rails.com/humming-bird.html, http://www.american-rails.com/pan-american.html). I would say the Floridian/South Wind would better serve Louisville and Nashville. You could have combined the Cincinnati Limited and Humming Bird/Pan American for a NYP-NOL on a different route although I'm not sure that would be better than the current Crescent (Atlanta/Carolina vs. Columbus/Cincinnati/Louisville/Nashville).

They also had a Chicago-Atlanta train (Georgian, http://www.american-rails.com/georgian.html)via Nashville and Chattanooga. Did Chattanooga ever have Amtrak service? I think a Chicago-Atlanta would be useful if we had better facilities in Atlanta. There have been proposals for Chicago-Florida via Atlanta but has there ever been a Chicago-Florida route that served Atlanta?

I'm curious about routes from Detroit to the NEC in the 60's. I saw a few trains from American Rails but the schedules are from the 40's.


----------



## railiner (Mar 30, 2017)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Looking at pre-Amtrak trains canceled on or before A-Day, I thought PRR/PC's Cincinnati Limited (http://www.american-rails.com/cinn-ltd.html) should have been kept after A-Day for a faster route from Cincinnati to the NEC.
> 
> Also serving Cincinnati was L&N's Humming Bird/Pan American between Cincinnati and New Orleans via Louisville/Nashville (http://www.american-rails.com/humming-bird.html, http://www.american-rails.com/pan-american.html). I would say the Floridian/South Wind would better serve Louisville and Nashville. You could have combined the Cincinnati Limited and Humming Bird/Pan American for a NYP-NOL on a different route although I'm not sure that would be better than the current Crescent (Atlanta/Carolina vs. Columbus/Cincinnati/Louisville/Nashville).
> 
> ...


Prior to the Penn Central merger, you could get from the Northeast to Cincinnati on both the PRR, and the NYC...And you could also get there on the B&O, the C&O, and the N&W...

From Detroit to New York City, there were several thru NYC Lines trains via Canada, or you could connect in Toledo. There were other connection possibilities on other roads as well.

Amtrak never served Chattanooga. Prior to Amtrak you could go on several trains between Chicago and Cincinnati, and connect there with thru trains to Florida....there may have been some thru Pullman's via that routing...


----------



## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2017)

railiner said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at pre-Amtrak trains canceled on or before A-Day, I thought PRR/PC's Cincinnati Limited (http://www.american-rails.com/cinn-ltd.html) should have been kept after A-Day for a faster route from Cincinnati to the NEC.
> ...


I know the Carolina Special carried a thru Columbia Chicago sleeper I believe. I wish this train still existed as it would make deadheads more pleasant. 
I know the Royal Palm which was a Cincinnati to Florida train carried thru cars from several New York Central Midwest trains from Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, Indianapolis.

The Midwestern terminals that had Florida trains would be Chicago, Cincinnati, and I believe St Louis had one that was a Frisco operation.


----------



## railiner (Mar 30, 2017)

And the furthest was the Frisco "Kansas City- Florida Special"...it ran via Springfield, Mo. and Memphis...

That train might have had Pullman's from Denver or maybe even further, IIRC....


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 30, 2017)

The Dixie Flagler (http://www.american-rails.com/dixie-flagler.html) went further than the Georgian and went to Florida. They had a St. Petersburg section and a Miami section. Neither served Orlando but this was before Disney World.


----------



## dogbert617 (Jun 16, 2017)

I definitely didn't live during this era(sigh, it was before my time), but seeing this Steamliner long distance train route map is amazing! I sometimes wish I was born a few decades earlier(or find a time machine, lol), so I could've experienced the last 1960s years of the pre-Amtrak long distance train era. This is the map I mean(wish I knew the exact year, it was depicting when these Steamliner routes operated. still a great map):

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/extras/streamliners_across_america.pdf


----------



## jis (Jun 16, 2017)

dogbert617 said:


> I definitely didn't live during this era(sigh, it was before my time), but seeing this Steamliner long distance train route map is amazing! I sometimes wish I was born a few decades earlier(or find a time machine, lol), so I could've experienced the last 1960s years of the pre-Amtrak long distance train era. This is the map I mean(wish I knew the exact year, it was depicting when these Steamliner routes operated. still a great map):
> 
> http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/extras/streamliners_across_america.pdf


Very nice map!

It is interesting that it is missing more than half of the Northeast to Florida service. The whole route via Charleston is missing, and it appears that the Petersburg - Raleigh - Columbia route is missing too. All of those ran at least one "Streamliner". Seems like it has been put together based on incomplete information.


----------



## railiner (Jun 16, 2017)

It is a nice map, but a lot more 'streamliner' routes across the entire country are missing, as well...


----------



## ehbowen (Jun 17, 2017)

The map was a contribution from a visitor. I don't have the master PDF he used to be able to add trains to it. Plus my graphics skills are, shall we say, lacking.

The map is not from any particular date but most of the trains on it were active from the late 1940s into the early 1960s. There are many notable trains missing, such as MoPac's _Eagle_ network which linked St. Louis with Dallas-Fort Worth, El Paso, Houston and Louisiana. The Chicago-El Paso-Los Angeles _Golden State_ would be a great addition as well. There are more trains to add than I have time to type, especially as I'm on my cell phone right now....


----------

