# Refused Red Cap boarding because I'm not old or disabled



## Texan Eagle (May 10, 2017)

I'm currently at Chicago Union Station ready to board Southwest Chief. I approached the Red Cap desk requesting their service to board. The guy looked at me, looked at my one bag and says "YOU need a Red Cap? Sorry we can't do that. This service is only for the old and disabled". I told him I'll tip, but he was adamant.

Is this a new rule or was the guy making it all up?

Oh also, say hello to coach attendant on power trip insisting on giving everyone seat numbers and not letting me pick a window seat despite a half empty train.


----------



## Steve4031 (May 10, 2017)

Time to send a complaint letter to Amtrak. You can't tell just by looking at somebody if they need assistance. And don't for get to include the coach attendant. That's crap too.


----------



## Palmetto (May 10, 2017)

In Penn Station, along the years, I've never been refused Redcap service. This relates to the "lack of consistent service" comment I made elsewhere today on the forum.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 10, 2017)

Wow. That's a new low even for Amtrak. Red Caps are for everybody! Many on the board reccomend new riders to request a red cap as it is easy to get lost in the major stations (NYP And Chicago especially).


----------



## Texan Eagle (May 10, 2017)

I don't want to bring politics in here but I would not be surprised if there was a bit of profiling going on there. "Hmm a young brown guy by himself, wonder what he is up to, let's ignore him"


----------



## jis (May 10, 2017)

Because - Chicago.

I have forsworn ever riding Coach in Amtrak LD trains involving Chicago in any way, shape or form, because of the step-motherly attitude always bestowed upon me for being a single traveler.

I have no problem on the Atlantic Coast trains.


----------



## Acela150 (May 10, 2017)

TE,

I strongly suggest calling Customer Relations and notifying them of the issue that you ran in to. I constantly use Red Caps at South Station when I board there to get a decent seat in the FC car. That's really the only time I use South Station. But I have never been denied service. Using the term "old" is border line for me. I would have liked to seen him or her use the term elderly.

As for the coach attendant wait to see how the train fills up along the way, then make a decision on whether to make a complaint or not. But I agree that you should be allowed to chose a window seat if you wish. If it's a big enough issue go to the Conductor.


----------



## PaulM (May 10, 2017)

Acela150 said:


> As for the coach attendant wait to see how the train fills up along the way, then make a decision on whether to make a complaint or not.


I don't see how this is relevant at all. Directing a passenger to a specific car or maybe even specific section of a car might make sense. But reserving a window seat for someone who might board down the line is being a little too aggressive.


----------



## A Voice (May 10, 2017)

PaulM said:


> IBut reserving a window seat for someone who might board down the line is being a little too aggressive.


Is this actually what happened? I assumed it meant two single travelers - unrelated to each other - were assigned a pair of seats together, so one got the aisle in an otherwise partially occupied coach. If the train did indeed fill even close to capacity down the line, the attendant may need pairs of seats together to avoid later splitting up parties of two passengers.

Regardless, aren't assigned seats (and yes, singles get a seatmate) still regularly done on Atlantic Coast trains? It occurs to me I haven't been in coach there for some years, but such was once standard practice.

The real problem is, of course, the refusal of Red Cap service, for which there is no reasonable excuse.


----------



## jis (May 10, 2017)

Whenever I have traveled LD on the Atlantic Coast Line, I have had no problem getting a window seat. This may of course be a chance good behavior in the only constant at Amtrak, which is inconsistency. Trains from Chicago - forget it. I have no idea what the deal is, but I finally have given up, and I will fly instead of taking Amtrak if the only choice is LD Coach having to do with Chicago. Indeed I did that once when I was landing myself a Coach seat due to a misconnect in Chicago. I requested and got full refund of the leg and flew out that evening (on a flight that was of course cheaper than the original Sleeper ticket). And I am not the only one who has this experience. We have even complained through NARP, but to no avail. So my conclusion is that certain parts of Amtrak are not interested in my business, and that is OK by me, sadly. I understand they are running pretty full and about to make money so kudos to them. but they will not extract an LD Coach fare from me on any of those select sectors only to stuff me in an aisle seat. I am happy to travel by Sleeper when I choose to afford it. But net net, more of my money is going to the airlines, money that Amtrak could have had if they wanted it. Hey I even mentioned this to Joe B one time. He just shrugged and did not say anything.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (May 10, 2017)

A Voice said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > IBut reserving a window seat for someone who might board down the line is being a little too aggressive.
> ...


I've ridden in coach on the Cardinal and the LSL - both to Chicago - and was only directed to a car, not to a seat. I was able to get window seats both times since I was boarding at or near the starting station.


----------



## the_traveler (May 10, 2017)

LD trains starting at the origination point (such as NYP or BOS) let you chose any seat. I understand assigning seats in say Winter Park or Salt Lake City, but not Chicago (the origination).

There is no excuse for that Red Cap's action!


----------



## Texan Eagle (May 10, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Is this actually what happened? I assumed it meant two single travelers - unrelated to each other - were assigned a pair of seats together, so one got the aisle in an otherwise partially occupied coach. If the train did indeed fill even close to capacity down the line, the attendant may need pairs of seats together to avoid later splitting up parties of two passengers.


Look this is the part I don't like one bit. If Amtrak cares so much about not splitting pairs of travelers, start assigning seat numbers at the time of booking so you know what you are getting into. If you go around claiming it is open seating, I expect open seating aka I get to choose where I sit. Look at Southwest Airlines. They have open seating, you don't see cabin crew block off rows of seats for families, or assign seat numbers at the gate at their own whim. You either give everyone assigned seats, or no one. Forcing people boarding from Chicago into seats decided by attendant, but letting passengers boarding one station down to pick their own seats is nonsense.


----------



## StriderGDM (May 10, 2017)

the_traveler said:


> LD trains starting at the origination point (such as NYP or BOS) let you chose any seat. I understand assigning seats in say Winter Park or Salt Lake City, but not Chicago (the origination).
> 
> There is no excuse for that Red Cap's action!


This is not true. I've been assigned a seat several times on the Crescent.


----------



## Texan Eagle (May 10, 2017)

StriderGDM said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > LD trains starting at the origination point (such as NYP or BOS) let you chose any seat. I understand assigning seats in say Winter Park or Salt Lake City, but not Chicago (the origination).
> ...


I have been forced to accept a crew chosen seat on both SWC and CS from LA, starting station for both trains.

There is no rhyme or reason to this, the crew does whatever they feel like.


----------



## Hal (May 10, 2017)

Texan Eagle said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


The crew reads the manifest and has a pretty good idea of how many couples and families are boarding down the line. They assign seats so families are not split up. There is rhyme and reason to it.


----------



## jis (May 10, 2017)

And that is why when I am traveling alone I avoid Amtrak LD Coach like the plague


----------



## Steve4031 (May 10, 2017)

I am in total agreement with Jis on this. And I live in Chicago.


----------



## crescent2 (May 10, 2017)

The worst car attendant I've ever had was out of Chicago, in a sleeper.

As for assigned coach seats, though, on my last trip with two friends on the Crescent, our coach car was almost empty. There may have been a dozen people total in the whole car. One friend and I were seated together, with the third across the aisle. The attendant seated a passenger next to her, which of course was fine with us. However, that passenger seemed to want solitude and quiet, and we were conversing with each other quietly most of the time. Point being, I'm sure she would have chosen a seat to herself if given that choice. We weren't noisy and tried not to bother her, but we didn't want to remain silent for the whole day. This was southbound between ATN and NOL, and the car remained almost empty the entire way. There was absolutely no reason to not offer the passenger her choice of seats in the almost empty car. Had she asked to move, perhaps she would've been allowed to do so, but she didn't ask.

That said, I've always found the crews on the Crescent to be pleasant and helpful. One time years ago my husband and I were given seats at the front end of the car, limiting our views with a wall in front of us. We politely asked if we could sit farther back and our request was granted. I can't recall whether I've ever been assigned a seat in coach other than those two times. After my husband became mobility limited, we always got a sleeper.

I have to agree with the OP, if the car has plenty of open seats, I don't see why a passenger can't choose where to sit, as Amtrak doesn't reserve particular seats when booking.

I don't even know what to say about the Redcap incident. I guess they've always considered me old or something!


----------



## amtrakpass (May 10, 2017)

I just took the capitol limited in coach out of chicago and despite the fact i heard the conductor say he had 40 passengers who would not make connections due to the southwest chief late arrival the attendant still assigned everyone seats with the rear half of the car empty making the announcement that they would "need every seat". Of course this was obviously not the case and after dinner i asked to move to an open seat. Went fine until toledo when the handful of passengers got on and seeing the car half empty ignored his boarding seat assignments in an attempt to spread out and get some sleep. So he gets on and tells me and the new passengers to move since it is his car. But the passengers all said they would move when it became actually necessary but for the time being they wanted to sit by themselves. He eventually did back down and let us sit where we wanted but there was no reason for seat assignments on this train with all the no-shows and it never came close to filling up. I have noticed this seat assignment thing much more in the last few years when in all but overnight stops in order to not disturb sleeping passengers i don't think it is necessary at all. But with all that it might sound like i didn't have a good trip when in reality i had a very nice time even if i didn't agree with every last detail. Sleeper is great but with the expense i am happy to go coach again even if it's not perfect especially since I am not perfect in the first place. On the other issue with the red cap i have to say i have never thought of using a red cap by myself not being with a family and able bodied. Not saying it isn't policy to allow any passenger to use them and it is wrong to discriminate in any form of course. Just don't see it as a deal breaker to have to walk to the train with the rest us if you are able


----------



## Devil's Advocate (May 10, 2017)

In my experience Amtrak often treats coach riders with requests like a bothersome nuisance, but they seem to save their absolute worst attitudes for single male passengers. It's almost as if they relish the opportunity to brush you off and bark orders at you. I have no explanation for why they do that or what benefit they could possibly get out if, but I've seen it far too many times for it to be a simple mistake or accident. It seems to be a more of a corporate culture problem to me.


----------



## norfolkwesternhenry (May 10, 2017)

I think Amtrak needs to implement a seat selection system like that with some airlines, where you can pick your seat anywhere in the car, based on availability.

The redcap service was unacceptable, if you got the name make sure to include that in your complaint


----------



## Lonestar648 (May 10, 2017)

I have not had the seat assignment experience, but I have had the Coach Attendant put reserved for families signs on groups of seats. On time, they had taped off half the car for a large group boarding one or two stations away. Many people removed the tape only to be told they had to move to another seat. A group of high School kids did board with their chaperons filling every seat taped off. This seemed like a reasonable request. If Amtrak wants reserved LD Coach seating they need to rewrite the reservation program, which with no extra cash, will not happen. So we are left with aCoach boarding procedure that varies with the wind.


----------



## BCL (May 11, 2017)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> I think Amtrak needs to implement a seat selection system like that with some airlines, where you can pick your seat anywhere in the car, based on availability.
> 
> The redcap service was unacceptable, if you got the name make sure to include that in your complaint


However, Amtrak has a lot more stops than airlines.


----------



## tommylicious (May 11, 2017)

the actions undelrying these stories are outrageous and unacceptable


----------



## CCC1007 (May 11, 2017)

BCL said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> > I think Amtrak needs to implement a seat selection system like that with some airlines, where you can pick your seat anywhere in the car, based on availability.
> ...


This should not be an issue. Dedicate different cars to different trip lengths... or hire a good team of programmers to make it work.


----------



## Lonestar648 (May 11, 2017)

The big issue with pick your own seat or room is maximize the use of available space. With so many stops of boarding passngers plus those getting off while just on one train opens a multitude of programming design issues that the airline don't have to plan for. Family of five traveling Chicago to Sacramento near the departure date, but by using select your own seats maybe they have two seats in one car, two in another and one in a third. Where now they can sit together. Would they travel by Amtrak if they couldn't sit together? Probably not. So spending a few million, probably more to write a new reservation system, how will this increase revenue over what was paid to implement the new system? Just some thoughts. Yes, it would be nice to pick your seat, but Amtrak is not like the Airlines with point to point all on, all off seating.


----------



## RSG (May 11, 2017)

Texan Eagle said:


> Look this is the part I don't like one bit. If Amtrak cares so much about not splitting pairs of travelers, start assigning seat numbers at the time of booking so you know what you are getting into. If you go around claiming it is open seating, I expect open seating aka I get to choose where I sit. Look at Southwest Airlines. They have open seating, you don't see cabin crew block off rows of seats for families, or assign seat numbers at the gate at their own whim. You either give everyone assigned seats, or no one. Forcing people boarding from Chicago into seats decided by attendant, but letting passengers boarding one station down to pick their own seats is nonsense.


I agree with using the Southwest model of seat assignment; they seem to have perfected it down to an art (much to the chagrin of some passengers) and it seems to work for them. It doesn't require a software rewrite or a whole new IT infrastructure on the reservations side and can still perform specific goals of keeping families, groups, etc together. Certainly can't be worse than the current system. Most people, as customers, can overlook anomalies and unforeseen circumstances, but what really tends to turn the David Daos of the world into out-of-control Lindsay Lohans is being treated in an arbitrary fashion with little or no explanation or reasoning.

As for the Red Cap situation, there should be no reason for the refusal. Sounds like at least a few staff members need sensitivity awareness training. One never uses the term 'old' as a qualifier for anything, and the first thing disability rights people will inform you is that not all disabilities are obvious and it is never appropriate for someone else to casually determine what your needs are as a person with a disability. Should the same or other staff make that determination to the wrong person, they are looking at defending a discrimination claim. In all the marketing of the Red Cap service the phrase "passengers needing special assistance" is used. I would be pretty sure they don't define it any further than that just in order to insure they are inclusive and not discriminating.

Still, there seems to be issues with the Red Cap service in Chicago. I've had many positive experiences, but also a few unpleasant and downright evil stepmotherly ones. As I've noted on other threads, there is one particular Red Cap attendant which will cause me to refuse to use the service when they are on duty. As jis said, there's something about Chicago which seems to make those working inside Union Station make up their own rules.

At any rate, I do hope you will follow through with a complaint to customer relations with a copy to the management at CUS. Wrong attitudes can't change if the right people don't know they exist.


----------



## Texan Eagle (May 11, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> but Amtrak is not like the Airlines with point to point all on, all off seating.


Every time I see this argument made here on AU, I can't decide whether to laugh or cry at it. Every civilized country in the world with ten times more complex rail networks offer assigned seating with no problem. In fact, even third world India with the world's largest passenger rail network has been offering assigned seating since 25 years on trains that make 100+ stops and passengers can board and alight anywhere.


----------



## jis (May 11, 2017)

Texan Eagle said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > but Amtrak is not like the Airlines with point to point all on, all off seating.
> ...


And the underlying technology used by IR for doing all that is SAP Hana. And the danged thing worked in the pure paper world, and it works better in the computerized world.

I still remember those single word telegraph codes that were used to transmit status of reservation requests made from wayside station to the originating station. Single words like KIMBAM and KASKAM had specific meanings as to whether the reservation was confirmed or waitlisted or such. Fascinating how it all just worked for over a century.


----------



## Johanna (May 11, 2017)

Some thoughts from someone who may or may not know what she is talking about:

Assigning seats at the time of reservation could alleviate a lot of other problems too. In stations like WAS you have people lining up an hour before their departure time so they can be the first to board the train and get the best pick of seats. All the long, sprawling lines detract from the usability of the station. If all those people had their seats assigned in advance, they could spend most of that hour in the food court (or elsewhere in the station, or at home), then stroll onto the train 10-15 minutes before departure and take their seats.

On the long-distance trains, I appreciate the efforts taken to segregate passengers who will be disembarking at daytime versus nighttime stops. But surely that can be taken into account when you're offered your pick of seats (i.e., you can't choose from any seat on the train - just from those in the car designated for nighttime destinations, so the passengers in the daytime-destination car don't have to listen to you shuffling around to collect your stuff right before your stop).

If none of this would work for some reason, I wonder if Amtrak could keep separate inventories of window versus aisle seats, and sell them at different prices if necessary? The system is already set up to do that with upper and lower level seats, so it should be possible. That way, people who really want a view out the window don't have to stress out about whether they'll get one, and the people who just want to get where they're going may be able to save a few dollars.


----------



## gatelouse (May 11, 2017)

Best compromise approach I've seen is on a recent CZ. Within each car, singles to the front half, pairs to the rear half. No further seat assignment.


----------



## railiner (May 11, 2017)

Johanna said:


> Some thoughts from someone who may or may not know what she is talking about:
> 
> Assigning seats at the time of reservation could alleviate a lot of other problems too. In stations like WAS you have people lining up an hour before their departure time so they can be the first to board the train and get the best pick of seats. All the long, sprawling lines detract from the usability of the station. If all those people had their seats assigned in advance, they could spend most of that hour in the food court (or elsewhere in the station, or at home), then stroll onto the train 10-15 minutes before departure and take their seats.
> 
> ...


I agree, completely. Amtrak already has the system that could be programmed to make all of that possible. The biggest hurdle would be to convince them to make it happen. And of course change the employees attitudes to accept it, rather than resist it kicking and screaming...


----------



## railiner (May 11, 2017)

If a pre- reserved seat policy were implemented, it would have a negative impact on redcaps, as they would no longer get those easy jobs, carting someone's briefcase to pre-board and 'beat' the line... 

The whole boarding process kind of reminds me of going to a "headliner's" show in Las Vegas...last time I was there, you couldn't reserve a particular seat...just a particular performance. Then when entering the showroom, you

"greased the palm" of your usher, to get the better seats...

Needless to say, you had to be "connected", to get one of those lucrative jobs...just like their valet parking attendant's...


----------



## Thirdrail7 (May 11, 2017)

Texan Eagle said:


> I'm currently at Chicago Union Station ready to board Southwest Chief. I approached the Red Cap desk requesting their service to board. The guy looked at me, looked at my one bag and says "YOU need a Red Cap? Sorry we can't do that. This service is only for the old and disabled". I told him I'll tip, but he was adamant.
> 
> Is this a new rule or was the guy making it all up?
> 
> Oh also, say hello to coach attendant on power trip insisting on giving everyone seat numbers and not letting me pick a window seat despite a half empty train.


I'm seriously trying to picture this. A RED CAP actually REFUSED service and a TIP? A RED CAP? This has to be a first. I hope you took the time you invested in making this post and put it to good use by marching to the customer service desk in CHI and demanding assistance and filing a formal complaint. It is FREE service. You don't HAVE to tip them and they are not supposed to ask. It is available to EVERYONE. I'm not a lawyer but I would think they are not even allowed to ask if you have a disability. I would also venture to guess that by saying service is only available to "old people" amounts to some form of discrimination.

I seriously hope you didn't something other than make a post on this board. I'm interested in knowing what customer services said about this.



Johanna said:


> Some thoughts from someone who may or may not know what she is talking about:
> 
> Assigning seats at the time of reservation could alleviate a lot of other problems too. In stations like WAS you have people lining up an hour before their departure time so they can be the first to board the train and get the best pick of seats. All the long, sprawling lines detract from the usability of the station. If all those people had their seats assigned in advance, they could spend most of that hour in the food court (or elsewhere in the station, or at home), then stroll onto the train 10-15 minutes before departure and take their seats.
> 
> ...


If anyone recalls, they started this service with the Acela and passengers hated it. It also didn't work correctly. Different trains have different loading plans. Some of them are based upon the train size, service requirements, host requirements and station size. Some stations may need certain cars on the platform to accommodate baggage work. There may be a group getting on and they need the seats for late. They may want the person that is getting off first on the aisle because some people sleep like to relax during the day as well.

What works on one train may not work on another train because operating profiles are completely different.

To that end, they were supposedly working on some system that will do exactly what Johanna stated. It would show the consist, the car diagram, the seating chart, the direction of the seats etc. It is part of a massive overhaul of the operations system. Some of it has already been completed. It may help but I'm not in favor of charging people for window seats, forward facing seats (etc.)


----------



## Johanna (May 11, 2017)

gatelouse said:


> Best compromise approach I've seen is on a recent CZ. Within each car, singles to the front half, pairs to the rear half. No further seat assignment.


This is what they did on the EB I took out of Seattle last week. Despite the repeated announcements that the train would be full and they'd need every seat, the majority of singles got seats to themselves (at least as far as LWA, where I got off).


----------



## Devil's Advocate (May 11, 2017)

Lonestar648 said:


> [One] time, they had taped off half the car for a large group boarding one or two stations away. Many people removed the tape only to be told they had to move to another seat. A group of high School kids did board with their chaperons filling every seat taped off. This seemed like a reasonable request.


I've seen many other instances where half the car was reserved but never once occupied throughout the entire run. The staff never budged an inch or checked any manifests, they just immediately barked at whoever so much as glanced at those seats. The problem with this situation is that, in addition to being lousy customer service, it also leaves people doubting and distrusting Amtrak staff even in those cases when there's a legitimate need for those seats.



Lonestar648 said:


> If Amtrak wants reserved LD Coach seating they need to rewrite the reservation program, which with no extra cash, will not happen.


ARROW has supported customer seat selection at booking for at least sixteen years now. The front end website may not support seat selection but the solution to that is the same as the one already employed for sleeper passengers who want a specific room. Which is to say those who care can make their purchase by phone and select from the available options.


----------



## jis (May 11, 2017)

Amtrak is potentially leaving money on the table. They could assess a service charge for those that want a pre-assigned seat, like SNCF charges a reservation fee, even on trains where it is "reservation obligatoire". Brits on the other hand let you reserve a seat for free.

What I find disturbing is the "I can screw you therefore I will" attitude among a disturbingly large proportion of Coach attendants. This is not to say that there are many good Coach attendants too. But it takes just a few to turn one quite sour on the whole thing.


----------



## JayPea (May 11, 2017)

gatelouse said:


> Best compromise approach I've seen is on a recent CZ. Within each car, singles to the front half, pairs to the rear half. No further seat assignment.


I saw the same sort of thing on the EB on one occasion. I being a single traveler sat in the proper section, while several single travelers spread over two or three seats each in the section for groups. This was in Seattle, and at the next stop, Edmonds, a family of four got on and found no room in the sections reserved for groups, so they had to find seats in the section for singles. The car attendant asked several people to move to accomodate them. None did, so she ordered me to move out of my window seat. No asking about it. Instead of making the singles in the section for groups move. :angry: Then she promised to find me a window seat and made no effort to do so. Finally the conductor made me take an aisle seat. When I complained to the car attendant, she huffily told me I could have a window seat at Spokane. When she knew darned well I was getting off there. :angry:


----------



## Texan Eagle (May 11, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I'm seriously trying to picture this. A RED CAP actually REFUSED service and a TIP? A RED CAP? This has to be a first. I hope you took the time you invested in making this post and put it to good use by marching to the customer service desk in CHI and demanding assistance and filing a formal complaint. It is FREE service. You don't HAVE to tip them and they are not supposed to ask. It is available to EVERYONE. I'm not a lawyer but I would think they are not even allowed to ask if you have a disability. I would also venture to guess that by saying service is only available to "old people" amounts to some form of discrimination.
> 
> I seriously hope you didn't something other than make a post on this board. I'm interested in knowing what customer services said about this.


Yes. Let me play out the entire conversation for you-

Me: Can you please take me to board Southwest Chief?

Redcap: Yea, go and stand in that queue <points to general boarding line>

Me: No, I mean I would like Redcap service.

Redcap: <looks at me> who wants Redcap service? Where are they?

Me: I want it. I'm here.

Redcap: *YOU* want Redcap service? Why? Where is all your baggage?

Me: <pointing to my one carry-on bag> Here it is.

Redcap: That's it? Umm no, can't do it. This service is for the old and disabled passengers.

Me: <one last attempt to convince him> I will tip you. Are you sure?

Redcap: Nope. Go stand in that line.

I did not march to the customer service desk because I had to stand in general boarding queue to board the train. I wrote this post while on the train. I will call Customer Relations and talk to them about this.


----------



## BCL (May 11, 2017)

Texan Eagle said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm seriously trying to picture this. A RED CAP actually REFUSED service and a TIP? A RED CAP? This has to be a first. I hope you took the time you invested in making this post and put it to good use by marching to the customer service desk in CHI and demanding assistance and filing a formal complaint. It is FREE service. You don't HAVE to tip them and they are not supposed to ask. It is available to EVERYONE. I'm not a lawyer but I would think they are not even allowed to ask if you have a disability. I would also venture to guess that by saying service is only available to "old people" amounts to some form of discrimination.
> ...


Honestly in their position I would be wondering what you wanted from the redcap service. It doesn't sound like you had a bag that you couldn't handle yourself or needed to be checked in. Of course you were fed a BS line about who could request their assistance, and that's inexcusable. They're supposed to help unfamiliar people navigate through stations (location of the bathrooms seems to be a common question), but in general I don't think that means figurative hand holding to the train.

http://blog.amtrak.com/2014/10/redcapsatyourservice/

The description they have is that any baggage handled by a redcap involves a claim check, so it's going to need to be checked in.

https://www.amtrak.com/baggage-services

Just curious what kind of service you were thinking you'd get? I think they're supposed to help if it's something like a family of 4 with larger carry-on baggage and a couple of toddlers, but I don't know how it matches the requirement that any handled baggage needs a claim check.


----------



## jis (May 11, 2017)

So seems like you put a thick layer of your own unfounded input into interpreting the blog. Where does it say that you are not allowed to use Red Cap service if you have a small bag? Show us. You can think whatever you like but your interpretation is yours alone and is not supported in any way by the text in the blog. How is the Red Cap guy supposed to predetermine that you do not need help, that you are not new at the station etc. etc.? I call BS on your interpretation. Sorry.


----------



## PRR 60 (May 11, 2017)

This really is a bazaar story. If anything, Red Caps are usually over enthusiastic about handling luggage even when they are not asked. I once had a Chicago Red Cap literally grab my 21" roll aboard out of my hand as I was walking to the Empire Builder and put it on his cart with a bunch of other bags. I politely took it back off the cart and told him, "Thanks, but I got it."

A Red Cap turning down an easy tip. This might be a first.


----------



## BCL (May 11, 2017)

jis said:


> So seems like you put a thick layer of your own unfounded input into interpreting the blog. Where does it say that you are not allowed to use Red Cap service if you have a small bag? Show us. You can think whatever you like but your interpretation is yours alone and is not supported in any way by the text in the blog. How is the Red Cap guy supposed to predetermine that you do not need help, that you are not new at the station etc. etc.? I call BS on your interpretation. Sorry.


I never said that. I'm still trying to understand what the original purpose was of requesting assistance. Yeah I would have been taken aback if the redcap was insistent that such services were only reserved for the disabled or elderly. I could imagine one believing that baggage services should be prioritized for people with some difficulties, even if it was said in a clumsy manner.

Certainly I've heard that a lot of people whose job is to handle baggage detest modern rolling luggage because so few people request their assistance, and by extension create opportunities to accept tips. And absolutely it seems a bit crazy that anyone who lives off of tips would turn down the opportunity to get one.


----------



## BCL (May 11, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> This really is a bazaar story. If anything, Red Caps are usually over enthusiastic about handling luggage even when they are not asked. I once had a Chicago Red Cap literally grab my 21" roll aboard out of my hand as I was walking to the Empire Builder and put it on his cart with a bunch of other bags. I politely took it back off the cart and told him, "Thanks, but I got it."
> 
> A Red Cap turning down an easy tip. This might be a first.


Isn't that soliciting work?


----------



## JoeBas (May 11, 2017)

BCL said:


> I'm still trying to understand what the original purpose was of requesting assistance.


Early access to the train? Avoiding the scrum in the line? Wanting to give a poor lost Redcap a break and some bread? A rare and wanted experience of feeling how the other half lives? What difference does it make what his motivation was?


----------



## Devil's Advocate (May 11, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> This really is a bazaar story.


It's so bazaar it's bizarre. h34r:



BCL said:


> Just curious what kind of service you were thinking you'd get? I think they're supposed to help if it's something like a family of 4 with larger carry-on baggage and a couple of toddlers, but I don't know how it matches the requirement that any handled baggage needs a claim check.


What you _seem_ to be saying between the lines is that single male travelers don't have the _automatic _right to make use of priority boarding simply because they're not quite clueless or helpless enough. Which honestly makes no sense to me, but it does seem to match the mindset of the person who apparently refused to provide service despite the loss of a tip.


----------



## BCL (May 11, 2017)

OK, I've declined using a red cap when I had an opportunity. I was under the impression that the reasons were for baggage handling and directions, but I didn't really understand that priority boarding could be requested. So I'm waving my white flag here.


----------



## HP_Lovecraft (May 11, 2017)

Texan Eagle said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...


I think the South West model is a total disaster. It has the worst features of Amtraks open-seating, and reserved seating used in other transport.

First of all, it is not really open-seating. It starts with the business-select group, then the upgraded boarding group, then the early check-in group. These tiers all cost more money. Then "families". Then in order that everyone did the normal check in.

So many people try to game the system that its far, far worse then amtrak. I've seen groups of 9-10 with ONE child, hoping to jump to the front of the line. I've seen groups with ONE person pay for priority boarding that hold seats until the rest show up. Or they do the "puffy jacket", or "fake sleeping" tricks you see on trains. or the person who jumps the line, and pretends to be confused, or convenient lack of english.

Each airport handles this mess differently. Some super strict, some are total madness. It sucks for me, as I have 6 kids. On our last trip, they told us. Only kids under six, with a parent, can board early. So the 4 siblings that were over 6 had to board seperatly, and none of them sat together. We weren't willing to do the dirty tricks above.

Amtraks systems, however, its simple. If sitting together is important, show up early, try to board at a terminus, and use a redcap when possible.


----------



## neroden (May 11, 2017)

I had to threaten to sue once. ( I was with my *disabled* girlfriend. They were profiling, incompetently. Once they figured out that they were trying to deny assistance to a disabled person, they backed off.)


----------



## BCL (May 11, 2017)

HP_Lovecraft said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > A Voice said:
> ...


Southwest is supposedly getting stricter about priority boarding for younger children. One parent for one child. That may not stop seat saving, which they've publicly punted on. They say there's no specific policy, although I suppose anyone claiming to save seats for nonexistent group members to have a bunch of seats won't go well. It of course won't work if a flight is nearly full.


----------



## railiner (May 11, 2017)

JayPea said:


> gatelouse said:
> 
> 
> > Best compromise approach I've seen is on a recent CZ. Within each car, singles to the front half, pairs to the rear half. No further seat assignment.
> ...


If that happened to me, I would be livid, and probably have to swallow my anger, to avoid being ejected from the train....once I calmed down, and accepted my misfortune, I would write a very detailed and polite letter to the Company, and see what response I got. If they did not satisfy my expectations, I would probably think long and hard about trying their service again.

Writing this, I am reminded of that great picture "The Out of Towner's" (the original version with Jack Lemmon), and I have to smile at his constantly getting dissed and demanding the name of the offender to write it down and report...


----------



## RSG (May 12, 2017)

BCL said:


> Honestly in their position I would be wondering what you wanted from the redcap service. It doesn't sound like you had a bag that you couldn't handle yourself or needed to be checked in.


I have a friend who has severe rheumatoid arthritis, for more than 15 years now. Thanks to modern medicine, she gets regular treatments for it which enable her to lead a largely independent and functional life. Still, on her best days she can walk without assistance but it gets tiring after awhile. On her so-so days, she needs a cane; on her bad days, she really needs a wheelchair for anything other than the trip from the car to the door of a building; and on her worst days, she's flat on her back.

If she was having a good day and presented herself to the Red Cap station with no assistive device and just a purse or beach bag (and, to be evenhanded about the example, wasn't 5'7" on tiptoes, was a few years younger, and perhaps, wasn't female) in what universe would the response from the attendant be acceptable? She wouldn't be able to walk the distance from the new Metropolitan Lounge to a train on the far end of the station with the uppermost track numbers.

The point being, once again, that not all disabilities are visible and that is why any pre-qualifiers are _verboten_ when it comes to customer service, particularly when it may relate to the Americans With Disabilities Act. The actions of the attendant show an incredible lack of awareness and training on such issues. This is what makes the example so outrageous. Anyone presenting with a desire for assistance should be presumed to have need of that assistance. Even if it's a gangly teenager who appears to be walking and carrying nothing more than a backpack and using their iPhone just fine (bearing in mind that even teenagers are afflicted with conditions like arthritis).


----------



## BCL (May 12, 2017)

RSG said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly in their position I would be wondering what you wanted from the redcap service. It doesn't sound like you had a bag that you couldn't handle yourself or needed to be checked in.
> ...


Yeah - I get that a rude response to a request for aid is unacceptable. However, I can't imagine that certain resources can be requested by anyone without question. If my six year old asks to use a fold-out wheelchair ramp just for the heck of it, do they assume there's a disability involved just because a request was made? A red cap's duties aren't simply to provide baggage service for the elderly or disabled, so asking for assistance isn't solely about the elderly or disabled. I personally don't get why someone otherwise capable of handling a small carry-on size piece through a station would want need baggage handling, but I now get that seeking a red cap can mean priority boarding.

If I needed any aid for a condition that wasn't apparent, I would say I have a disability where I need help. I've never heard of any kind of ADA guidelines where someone couldn't be asked if they had a disability that required assistance. Maybe it's unacceptable to ask what the specific disability is.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (May 12, 2017)

BCL said:


> OK, I've declined using a red cap when I had an opportunity. I was under the impression that the reasons were for baggage handling and directions, but I didn't really understand that priority boarding could be requested.


That's one of the major reasons for requesting a red cap. It's still a free service. If the red cap wasn't assisting a customer, then he should have helped. I would have gone to customer service and demanded a red cap or asked them to take me to the train.


----------



## Dave Van (May 12, 2017)

A quick look and I look like an average passenger. But I have two prosthetic legs but wear long pants that hide the fact. (not embarrassed just like to blend) Add a low light vision issue and Chicago platforms are dangerous for me. I have never had any issue or questions about Red Cap service.

Assigning seats in coach is based on the total trip seating....so at times you do not get to sit were you want.....when was the last time a airline had free form seating??


----------



## BCL (May 12, 2017)

Dave Van said:


> Assigning seats in coach is based on the total trip seating....so at times you do not get to sit were you want.....when was the last time a airline had free form seating??


Southwest Airlines does it that way. The passenger is assigned a boarding number at check in. There's a strong incentive to check in at the first opportunity to get the best number. People Express used to have that. In fact I understood that it was possible to pay on the plane after reserving by phone.

A lot of Amtrak routes only have open seating or start with open seating near the beginning of the route. There's also flexibility to move passengers during the trip.


----------



## PVD (May 12, 2017)

Of course, SW also offers you the opportunity to pay extra to be in the first boarding group.


----------



## BCL (May 12, 2017)

PVD said:


> Of course, SW also offers you the opportunity to pay extra to be in the first boarding group.


Several ways. Their highest fares are Business Select, which guarantees an A1-A15 boarding number. Then there's early bird check in, which really mean automatic check in. Even then, there can be a lot of people paying that such that one can still be in the second or even third boarding group. It used to be a real free for all back when you had to pick up a plastic boarding pass at the gate. And even then 1-30 was the first group and passengers didn't have to line up in order, just in the group.

Amtrak just seems to do it so many different ways. Open seating. Assigned car and you pick a seat at the origin station. Assigned seat at the origin station. Assigned seating during the middle. I've seen it where the conductor had a clipboard and my assigned seat was written down, as well as when the conductor looked at a diagram and wrote my name in.


----------



## A Voice (May 12, 2017)

BCL said:


> Dave Van said:
> 
> 
> > Assigning seats in coach is based on the total trip seating....so at times you do not get to sit were you want.....when was the last time a airline had free form seating??
> ...


Southwest Airlines doesn't make the extensive intermediate stops which Amtrak does; There are further much greater differences in passenger accommodation needs and requirements between train and plane (a train isn't just a plane with no wings). It is largely an apples to oranges comparison.


----------



## BCL (May 12, 2017)

A Voice said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Dave Van said:
> ...


I understand that, and several of my posts in this thread acknowledge that difference. In my experience on long-distance Amtrak trains I've always had a seat assignment before I boarded. In Seattle on the CS it was being assigned a car at the station, then a seat (seat number written on a seat check) from an attendant with a clipboard before boarding. I had to cancel, but I was going to take the CZ from Emeryville, where I understand passengers are given a car assignment, but then can choose seats. It's only later when the attendants start assigning seats or even adjusting the seating depending on needs.

However, regional trains or commuter trains generally operate on an open seating basis. Open seating with air travel is actually pretty rare but pretty common on trains.


----------



## Johanna (May 12, 2017)

As I understand it, Southwest's rationale for using open seating instead of assigned seating is that it enables them to board the plane faster (which means faster turnaround time between arrival and departure, which means more revenue per plane per day).

But speed of boarding is less of an issue for trains than for planes: Trains have multiple doors (so passengers don't have to board one by one in a single-file line) and wider aisles (so it's not totally impossible to walk past someone who's still putting their bags above their seat), and a train can start moving when passengers are boarded but not yet seated (so in an assigned-seating system, if you board at one end of the train but discover that your assigned seat is at the other end, that's not a problem).


----------



## BCL (May 12, 2017)

Johanna said:


> As I understand it, Southwest's rationale for using open seating instead of assigned seating is that it enables them to board the plane faster (which means faster turnaround time between arrival and departure, which means more revenue per plane per day).
> 
> But speed of boarding is less of an issue for trains than for planes: Trains have multiple doors (so passengers don't have to board one by one in a single-file line) and wider aisles (so it's not totally impossible to walk past someone who's still putting their bags above their seat), and a train can start moving when passengers are boarded but not yet seated (so in an assigned-seating system, if you board at one end of the train but discover that your assigned seat is at the other end, that's not a problem).


The fastest way to board is to charge for carry-on sized luggage, but charge less for checked-in luggage. Even with assigned seating, I found that boarding a plane on Spirit was the fastest because there was hardly any use of the overhead bins. They absolutely enforce that anything that's not paid for (i.e. a "personal item") goes under the seat.

And it really depends with trains. Superliner cars have to be individually opened. When I've taken an LD train at a lightly used station, the boarding was solely through a single door for coach and a single door for sleepers. I know at major stations they might open multiple doors.


----------



## AmtrakBlue (May 12, 2017)

This thread seems to have derailed. Why am I not surprised?


----------



## A Voice (May 12, 2017)

BCL said:


> Johanna said:
> 
> 
> > As I understand it, Southwest's rationale for using open seating instead of assigned seating is that it enables them to board the plane faster (which means faster turnaround time between arrival and departure, which means more revenue per plane per day).
> ...


Less luggage certainly helps. While I am very far from an expert in the area of airport operations, I would also question whether the Southwest model is actually the fastest way of loading a plane and even if it were, whether it really makes that much of a difference overall (too many other sources for delay or which just take time on the ground). If turning the plane quickly is so dependent on passenger boarding, seems like you'd have at least long-term plans for terminals to load from more than one door.



AmtrakBlue said:


> This thread seems to have derailed. Why am I not surprised?


The thread has not derailed; Rather, it has momentarily "lost contact with the rails". 

Actually, while we are off on a bit of a tangent, the method of seat selection does have a bearing on the use (or need) for Red Cap services.


----------



## JayPea (May 12, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> This thread seems to have derailed. Why am I not surprised?


Don't talk about derailments!!    I'm on the Empire Builder now!


----------



## BCL (May 12, 2017)

A Voice said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Johanna said:
> ...


Some airports where passengers walk on the the tarmac bring out two sets of stairs/ramps and use one of the rear doors. This is more like how many trains do it by opening every door on one side. I wonder if they could also open the middle. I'm not sure if they actually board on both ends, but I'd think that exiting would be done using both ends.







And of course there's the A380 that loads/unloads from two levels. I just saw one a few days ago, and it was freaking huge.


----------



## Lonestar648 (May 12, 2017)

The "Red Cap" has no way of knowing if you need assistance or not. Last summer, I was required by my doctors not to lift more that 10 pounds for several weeks. I had a train trip scheduled, so I took it, but took along my oldest granddaughter to manage the bags. It was all I could do to get up the stairs. By appearances, i looked healthy, except to those who knew me, so how would a Red Cap be able to judge your need or infer your capacity to tip. You can never judge anyone by their looks.


----------



## Rail Freak (May 12, 2017)

I had a Red Cap in Chicago ask me if I'd mind getting off the cart so an elderly lady could take my place. I did but also told him that I actually needed him. He thanked me & said he would return. He did & I tipped him more for being so considerate (I don't look disabled, but can't walk far at all)!!! I've also had some of the most rude Red Caps I've ever encountered, in Chicago!!!


----------



## trainman74 (May 12, 2017)

BCL said:


> Some airports where passengers walk on the the tarmac bring out two sets of stairs/ramps and use one of the rear doors. This is more like how many trains do it by opening every door on one side. I wonder if they could also open the middle. I'm not sure if they actually board on both ends, but I'd think that exiting would be done using both ends.


I can personally verify that, at Burbank, Southwest does indeed both board and deplane using both doors. (The "middle" is impossible, as that's an over-wing exit window.) There probably aren't too many other airports on their route system that still use stairs instead of jetways.


----------



## Ryan (May 12, 2017)

Albany actually has jetways to the aircraft fore and aft. It's awesome and I wish other places did it.


----------



## Carolina Special (May 12, 2017)

To really load a passenger plane faster, the military method should be used. That is, board the rear seats first and move forward. Much more efficient as my Army relatives inform me.

Of course, that messes up all the first class/biz class/loyalty programs boarding first deal that the airlines use, so unlikely to be adopted except in emergencies.


----------



## BCL (May 12, 2017)

trainman74 said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Some airports where passengers walk on the the tarmac bring out two sets of stairs/ramps and use one of the rear doors. This is more like how many trains do it by opening every door on one side. I wonder if they could also open the middle. I'm not sure if they actually board on both ends, but I'd think that exiting would be done using both ends.
> ...


Long Beach. They might start flying to Kona in a few years.


----------



## TiBike (May 12, 2017)

It's pretty ordinary to see back and front exiting/boarding anywhere you deplane onto the tarmac. Lots of regional jets work that way -- Alaska/Horizon for example. Air NZ does it too.

I fly Southwest a lot, and their system works pretty well. Not as painless as flying an RJ or turboprop out of a small airport, but pretty close. Except on the rare occasions when I have a tight connection and 3 or 4 extra minutes might matter, I just head right to the back of the plane. Most people seem to freak out about sitting as close to the front as possible, so the back is the last place that fills up. Unless it's a full flight, I usually have at least an empty middle seat next to me.

Southwest's corporate attitude is great -- informal, friendly, but very direct when necessary. They work really well with infrequent flyers. No BS.

Amtrak could learn a lot from them.



trainman74 said:


> I can personally verify that, at Burbank, Southwest does indeed both board and deplane using both doors. (The "middle" is impossible, as that's an over-wing exit window.) There probably aren't too many other airports on their route system that still use stairs instead of jetways.


----------



## PRR 60 (May 12, 2017)

Devil's Advocate said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > This really is a bazaar story.
> ...


Oops. Correct spelling, wrong word. Hate when that happens. That's why I majored in engineering, not English.


----------



## leacrane (May 12, 2017)

The Red Cap incident is bizarre. There's no requirement to be old or disabled or even have a heavy suitcase. I've used the service in NYP BOS and CHI. If anything the Redcaps are eager to pile up their carts to the max and putting on one small piece of baggage is easy and the same tip as a large one depending on who's tipping. Sounds like OP got a bad apple. I hope this gets reported if he has the name


----------



## caravanman (May 13, 2017)

Probably the best way to get fair service in most situations now is to have your phone camera running while you make the request... 

Ed.


----------



## Lonestar648 (May 13, 2017)

Very sad statement about life today, but does seem very true.


----------



## PVD (May 13, 2017)

Customer service failures are certainly something that get pointed out here on an all too frequent basis, but a person in a position that derives a good bit of compensation from gratuities turning down an opportunity to receive one is really strange. Usually it is the exact opposite......What could they have possibly been thinking?


----------



## Texan Eagle (May 13, 2017)

*Conclusion:* I called Amtrak Customer Relations and told them about this case. The lady on the phone asked for a description of the Redcap agent, gave the canned "we apologize for the experience you had, this is not what Amtrak strives for" statement, and said she will forward the complaint to the manager who will "give a talk" to the Red Cap agents. However, as a passenger, I get nothing beyond this, everything related to employees is privacy protected. End of story.


----------



## neroden (May 13, 2017)

Yours was not a serious enough case to do it, but if I ever encounter an incident again like the one where assistance to my disabled girlfriend was being denied, I'd go straight to a lawsuit. There's no employee privacy in a lawsuit.


----------



## BCL (May 13, 2017)

neroden said:


> Yours was not a serious enough case to do it, but if I ever encounter an incident again like the one where assistance to my disabled girlfriend was being denied, I'd go straight to a lawsuit. There's no employee privacy in a lawsuit.


A bit heavy handed, no? Yeah it seems silly that he was given a fake reason. But a lawsuit over it? I'd think corrective action should be enough. I don't really imagine that someone declaring a disability that's not apparent is going to be denied service, and hopefully they'll work on denying routine service.


----------



## Lonestar648 (May 13, 2017)

Typical Customer Service canned response to make you think they care and something will be done. With most Customer Service Call Centers, even with specific details, like time, date, names, etc. it is hard to get action from the first level staff who are suppose to deflect most calls. The Supervisor level will initially try to deflect so the issue doesn't go to a manager, but if the caller sounds like they are going higher, they have some authority to try to compensate to make the caller go away. At the Manager level, they rarely have to deal with an unhappy customer, so they are more inclined to do what ever is necessary to make the customer happy, at least within certain limitations, to make sure the problem isn't escalated to Senior Management. When the staff of a Senior Manager receives a serious complaint, action is taken. Generally, the problem is handed to a lower manager with orders to fix the problem so it doesn't happen again. The same issue coming from upper management carries weight, because no one in the company likes a customer complaint that has to be handled urgently and then a resolution to the next level manager. It is a black mark on those involved. I have been on both sides of this many times.


----------



## Austruck (May 13, 2017)

I had some awesome Red Cap service in both L.A. and Chicago this past week (on my first train trip ever). All were not only kind and helpful but took me right to my car and put my bags inside the car for me.

I was at the front of the train both getting off at Chicago and then getting back on to continue with my journey. Frankly, that is a LONG LONG trek down the whole length of that train, then into the station, and all the way to the lounge, with two heavy non-wheeled bags. Even the very rapid Red Cap cart ride was nearly five minutes (and they were SAILING through that station). Walking would have been miserable.

The Metropolitan Lounge had about 4 large Red Cap carts waiting for all of us and they took as many of us as they could and then some went back for the rest who wanted Red Cap service. Nobody was asked anything about being qualified for it. We were just told that if we wanted Red Cap service to stand on the red carpet in the lounge lobby. Period.

On our way off the train, by the way, our cart passed (quickly!) a young man who had apparently tripped on the train platform alongside the train. He was lying on the concrete, facedown, not moving (!!), with several people around him, with blood all around his head. We all gasped... and our Red Cap got on his two-way radio and called for help (all while still driving the cart deftly and fast) and then made sure the authorities in the lounge also knew about it. They then re-radioed for help for that young man. I wish there was a way to find out if he was all right.

All this to say that I was thoroughly impressed with the three Red Cap rides I opted for and wish I had taken advantage of them earlier in the trip.


----------



## railiner (May 14, 2017)

trainman74 said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Some airports where passengers walk on the the tarmac bring out two sets of stairs/ramps and use one of the rear doors. This is more like how many trains do it by opening every door on one side. I wonder if they could also open the middle. I'm not sure if they actually board on both ends, but I'd think that exiting would be done using both ends.
> ...


I have boarded some AA B757's which do have a sort of middle door (actually located between the F and Y class cabins. So at least the passengers boarding coach class did not have to squeeze thru the F class cabin...


----------



## jis (May 14, 2017)

AFAIR all 757s that I have ever been on had a door just forward of the wing usually at the front row of the Coach cabin. It is another matter whether an airline chooses to use that for boarding/disembarkation or not. In my experience most airlines tend to use that door.

This is of course not true of 737s which is what Southwest flies.


----------



## PVD (May 14, 2017)

757-200 were a bit odd in that they were sold with 3 different door combos depending on the cabin config/density choice of the airlines. The door ahead of the wing is a popular choice at a single jetway gate first or bc hang a left, main cabin, hang a right. Sometimes gate design precludes using a specific door.


----------



## Woodcut60 (May 14, 2017)

Texan Eagle said:


> Oh also, say hello to coach attendant on power trip insisting on giving everyone seat numbers and not letting me pick a window seat despite a half empty train.


Yes, last year on the Silver Service (Miami-Savannah) there was a coach attendant who did the same thing, i.e. giving people seat numbers. I find that a bit too zealous for my taste. I mean, I've come all the way from Europe to enjoy a train ride in America and so I want to have a window seat.


----------



## pennyk (May 14, 2017)

Woodcut60 said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> > Oh also, say hello to coach attendant on power trip insisting on giving everyone seat numbers and not letting me pick a window seat despite a half empty train.
> ...


Assigning seats is routine on the Silver Service. Almost every time I have traveled from Orlando on a Silver, I have been assigned a seat. If the train is not full, and it does not anticipate getting full, seating is open. In Orlando, families and other groups are often boarded first.


----------



## jis (May 14, 2017)

pennyk said:


> Woodcut60 said:
> 
> 
> > Texan Eagle said:
> ...


It is from Orlando. Not so much from Kissimmee though, heading towards NY. I think it also depends on how heavily loaded the train is. For example heading to Tampa they did assign me a seat and as always an aisle seat. I told her I am going to the Lounge so it doesn't matter, and then rode in the lounge at a window seat. It is just a one and a half hour ride to Tampa for cryin' out loud and almost two full coaches empty out there anyway!


----------



## Devil's Advocate (May 14, 2017)

HP_Lovecraft said:


> I think the South West model is a total disaster. It has the worst features of Amtraks open-seating, and reserved seating used in other transport. First of all, it is not really open-seating. It starts with the business-select group, then the upgraded boarding group, then the early check-in group. These tiers all cost more money. Then "families". Then in order that everyone did the normal check in.


Not every tier costs extra money. Here is the order and cost of each group to the best of my memory.

Disabled People ($0)

A01-A15 = Business Select (Full Fare + Drink), Anytime (Full Fare), or Upgraded Boarding ($30-$40)

A16-A30 = A-List and A-List Preferred (status based)

A31-A60 = Early Bird ($15)

Families with Young Children ($0)

B01-B60 = Timely Check-In ($0)

C01-C60 = Late Check-In ($0)

If the flight is full, there's a cancellation or change in scheduling, or you're buying at the tail end of the APEX/WGA booking period, then everything beyond A15 can get pushed further back but I've never had Early Bird drop me further back than Group B. That usually allows for an aisle seat toward the back while Group C is almost always stuck with center seats.



HP_Lovecraft said:


> So many people try to game the system that its far, far worse then amtrak. I've seen groups of 9-10 with ONE child, hoping to jump to the front of the line. I've seen groups with ONE person pay for priority boarding that hold seats until the rest show up. Or they do the "puffy jacket", or "fake sleeping" tricks you see on trains. Or the person who jumps the line, and pretends to be confused, or convenient lack of english.


I've flown many Southwest Airlines flights over the years, in fact I've flown almost every nonstop route they offer from my home airport, including some they no longer offer, and yet I've never had much of a problem with anyone trying to cheat me out of a seat. I'm normally in the A-Group but even if I was in the B-Group I'd simply ignore whichever Kettle Family was trying to game the system and take whatever seat was open. If they want to make a scene about their lack of planning then so be it. If I was in the C-Group I'd simply accept that my seat is going to be crap no matter what.



A Voice said:


> Southwest Airlines doesn't make the extensive intermediate stops which Amtrak does


On many routes Southwest does indeed make several intermediate stops with the same aircraft hopping from city to city in a chain from one end to the other like in the old days. That's how you can end up with several rows of able-bodied people already seated prior to boarding A01-A30. The benefit to passengers is that Southwest offers lots of nonstop flights without having to connect through some massive fortress hub and their walkup fares are a small fraction of what the legacies previously charged.



A Voice said:


> While I am very far from an expert in the area of airport operations, I would also question whether the Southwest model is actually the fastest way of loading a plane and even if it were, whether it really makes that much of a difference overall (too many other sources for delay or which just take time on the ground). If turning the plane quickly is so dependent on passenger boarding, seems like you'd have at least long-term plans for terminals to load from more than one door.


Southwest spent several years testing different boarding systems at various airports and the changes they deployed nationwide was the fastest and most efficient option available that didn't require extensive remodeling or retraining of staff and customers.


----------

