# More missing points



## PaulM (Jan 7, 2009)

Last Summer my wife and I took a 10 segment (2 x 5 segments each) trip. We failed to to get AGR credit for 3 of the 10 segments. I called AGR customer service and was basically called a lier. Following Amtrak rule no. 1, I thanked him and hung up. The next agent was more reasonable; and we did get credit.

At that time,I a got into an AU discussion; and I learned that you earn points, not by buying and paying for a ticket, but for actually riding the train, at least if the conductor sends the presumably punched ticket somewhere and it gets processed by a computer. The explanations of why this is so went over my head; but it sounded to me like a classic case of a system too complex to make sense.

Fast forward to December when we took a 4 (2 x 2) segment trip: MTP - DEN, and three days later DEN - WIP. Both of the later DEN-WIP tickets but only my wife's MTP-DEN ticket earned points, But this time I was smarter and saved the ticket stubs. I was able to submit the "Missing Points" form on the AGR website, which says I would get credit within 48 hours if the information matched that in their database. 48 hours has since passed; but no points. Howver, I am still confident.

My question is this. How does providing Amtrak's AGR vender with information from the ticket stub prove that I actually made the trip. The needed information didn't change from the time I purchased the ticket to the time I boarded it, or didn't as the case may be. The website didn't say anything about sending in the stub. It would seem that I could fail to make the trip, get the missing points via the web, and then send in the ticket with attached stub for a refund.

An unelated question. My "account activity" page on the AGR website shows the following: Point Balance: 15,788, Rail Points: 0. How can this be? I've earned some non-rail points using the AGR Chase credit card. However, I have taken frequent rail trips, and even received credit for some of them.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 7, 2009)

PaulM said:


> ...An unelated question. My "account activity" page on the AGR website shows the following: Point Balance: 15,788, Rail Points: 0. How can this be? I've earned some non-rail points using the AGR Chase credit card. However, I have taken frequent rail trips, and even received credit for some of them.


Hitting the last one, the "Rail Points" total is only for the current calendar year. It is used to determine eligibility for elite status (Select or Select Plus). It resets to zero at the beginning of each year.


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## the_traveler (Jan 7, 2009)

PaulM said:


> An unelated question. My "account activity" page on the AGR website shows the following: Point Balance: 15,788, Rail Points: 0. How can this be? I've earned some non-rail points using the AGR Chase credit card. However, I have taken frequent rail trips, and even received credit for some of them.


The point balance is your total points earned from all sources - rail travel, bonuses, partner activity, etc... The rail points are the base points earned by riding on Amtrak. *BUT* the rail points run from January 1 to December 31 *ONLY* - as these are counted towards Select status!


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## Shanghai (Jan 8, 2009)

I am amazed at the number of posters who have problems getting their AGR points. I travel quite a bit via Amtrak and have since 2001. In all of my travels, my points have aways posted withing one week and have always been accurate. I don't know what I'm doing properly, but I'm happy things are working for me. Good luck to all posters and I hope they always get the points they have earned.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 8, 2009)

PaulM said:


> ...My question is this. How does providing Amtrak's AGR vender with information from the ticket stub prove that I actually made the trip. The needed information didn't change from the time I purchased the ticket to the time I boarded it, or didn't as the case may be. The website didn't say anything about sending in the stub. It would seem that I could fail to make the trip, get the missing points via the web, and then send in the ticket with attached stub for a refund.


Now hitting this one which, I'm sure, is just an curiosity question. When you ride the train, your ticket is collected, turned in, and within a few days scanned into the Amtrak Computer Reservation System (CRS) which changes your reservation record to show you used the ticket. For reservations with AGR numbers, the used ticket listing is picked-up by AGR, and points for the taken trips are awarded to the member. Since getting the used ticket information into the CRS is a manual operation, tickets can be lost or mis-scanned or AGR numbers can be missing, so occasionally points will not post. In that case, the member reports the missing points, the claim is checked against the CRS, and if acceptable, the points are awarded. If the Amtrak reservation record shows the trip as not taken, it is changed to indicate the ticket was used and points awarded.

Now, if someone wanted to get points for a trip they purchased but did not take, that would be possible on a very, very occasional basis. One could claim they took the trip, got no points, and if necessary send in a copy of the stub from the unused ticket as proof. Since Amtrak's ticket collection and recording system is anything but foolproof, AGR would assume that your ticket got lost in the system somewhere. They would almost certainly award your points. For any one member, that would work once in a great while. Multiple attempts and AGR would get suspicious and would take a hard look at that member's account. Even though this scheme violates AGR rules, it is not, in my opinion, that bad since, financially, Amtrak is no worse off (and slightly better off) than if you had actually ridden the train. Neither Amtrak or AGR are really out anything.

However, if a member claims points for a trip they did not take, and then sends in the unused tickets for refund, that would set off all kinds of bells and alarms (and rightly so). Since the AGR points had been issued, the CRS record for that trip would show a used ticket. The refund claim would hit a CRS record of a trip taken. The computer would scream CHEATER. Since this would clearly be a scam to defraud AGR and Amtrak financially, there is a good chance that AGR would confiscate all your points and close your account. Mileage and points systems really don't like that kind of scam and can get pretty worked up about it.


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## wayman (Jan 8, 2009)

Shanghai said:


> I am amazed at the number of posters who have problems getting their AGR points. I travel quite a bit via Amtrak and have since 2001. In all of my travels, my points have aways posted withing one week and have always been accurate. I don't know what I'm doing properly, but I'm happy things are working for me. Good luck to all posters and I hope they always get the points they have earned.


Always within one week? That's surprisingly fast, in my experience. I'd say my travel points have all posted within three weeks, though, which is what AGR tells you to expect ("within 2-3 weeks of travel"). Occasionally those points post very quickly, but it's not at all unusual for them to take the whole three weeks, especially at year's end (when I'm sure they've got both a lot of holiday travel to process and a lot of vacation hours taken by staff). Still, I don't think I've ever had travel points not post automatically in a little over six years of AGR membership.

(Checking my records, I see that my oldest un-posted travel was on 18 December, three weeks ago today. It's one of four segments ridden that day, and the other three have all posted. It always seems weird that segments on the same day can post days or even weeks apart, but since different conductors lifted each ticket I imagine they're all sent submitted separately. I assume that segment will post soon, though maybe it'll take a fourth week.... That sometimes happens, but it's really unusual in my experience. I've got two other un-posted segments that are 24 days old. But again, all of these are right around Christmas and New Years, so I cut them a lot of slack.)

So far (six months or so), my AGR MasterCard points have also posted promptly without problem.

Online store points, well, that's another matter entirely....


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## HP_Lovecraft (Jan 8, 2009)

Shanghai said:


> I am amazed at the number of posters who have problems getting their AGR points.


For me, "normal" travel always posts in about 1-2 weeks.

However, my monthly passes never post automatically. I think thats because the conductor never actually takes them. But always post eventually via online or calling. Same for any bus-connections, or bustitutes (trackwork, snow storms, etc).

Clearly the conductor needs to do something to the ticket for AGR to recognize. Which is curious- Why?

The rules state you get the points for BUYING the ticket, but this is not accurate. You only get the points for USING the ticket.

My guess is this is designed to help minimize point runs. IE during the double-promotion, you could get points cheaper by riding then actually buying them. but... you still have to ride. Probobly moot now that they have the 4-ride rule though.


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## AlanB (Jan 8, 2009)

HP_Lovecraft said:


> Clearly the conductor needs to do something to the ticket for AGR to recognize. Which is curious- Why? The rules state you get the points for BUYING the ticket, but this is not accurate. You only get the points for USING the ticket.


Huh? :unsure:

From the Terms and Conditions, section C rule #2:



> A Member may receive Points only for his/her own travel, and will not receive Points for trips purchased by the Member, but not traveled personally by the Member.


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## HP_Lovecraft (Jan 8, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Huh? :unsure:


From page #1



> Earn 2 points per dollar spent on Amtrak travel


The first trip that I booked, I was disappoined to discover that I only got points for myself, and not my companions. It was after that, that I dug into the fine-print.

My point was that, despite what is implied above, more is involved in just spending, and travelling. The conductor needs to physically do something with the ticket. Thus why my 1-way tickets show up, but my monthy do not


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## Louis (Jan 8, 2009)

HP_Lovecraft said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Huh? :unsure:
> ...


Physically the conductor must collect the ticket and then turn them in so that they can be scanned back into the reservation system. This in turn generates the AGR Rail Points information for the traveler named on the ticket. Since passes are not collected for later scanning, they must be handled manually. Yes, this means you have to contact them and I consider this a weakness in the overall system. The whole collecting, turning in, and scanning process can take a few weeks during the busy holiday season. I've never waited more than 3 weeks myself. I think I'd call AGR if my Rail Points did not show after 3 weeks.

I like to keep in mind that there are points for spending on the Amtrak Guest Rewards Mastercard and then there are also points for travel, called Rail Points.

You get two points for every dollar charged to the Amtrak Guest Rewards Mastercard when paying for Amtrak goods and services and this has nothing to do with who does the traveling. This is in addition to and separate from the Rail Points you get for using the ticket. But remember that the points for travel are known as Rail Points and only the person named on the ticket can get them.


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## PaulM (Jan 9, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> One could claim they took the trip, got no points, and if necessary send in a copy of the stub from the unused ticket as proof.


This is precisely the case I'm NOT talking about. I'm talking about getting credit via the "missing points" website form. I assume if I do what you suggest, and then try to get a refund, the missing stub that I sent in for points would trip me up.



PRR 60 said:


> However, if a member claims points for a trip they did not take, and then sends in the unused tickets for refund, that would set off all kinds of bells and alarms (and rightly so).


What you say makes sense. In fact the logic couldn't be simpler.

Apply for a refund, check if points were credited to the ticket

If points were credited ==> red flag

else process refund and flag ticket as refunded.

Apply for points (regular scan or missed points application), check for refund

if refunded ==> red flag

else credit points and flag ticket as points earned

However, as we all know, tickets and points are handled by two different companies. More to the point, it was mentioned in the the prior AU discussion to which I referred, that the two companies' computers don't talk to one another. So, when I send in the unused tickets to Amtrak for a refund, Amtrak's computer would not know that AGR's computer had credited me with points for the same ticket. Or for that matter, if I applied for missed points, AGR's computer would not know if the ticket had been refunded. Apparently, the method of communication between Amtrak and AGR is the sack of tickets that the conductor sends to AGR.

My earlier question was: why worry about whether the trip was taken on not? The logic would be

Pay for tickets ==> credit points

request refund ==> deduct points earned on the unused ticket.

The error in this simple logic is that

Pay for tickets and request refund = Amtrak computer

credit points and deduct points = AGR computer

It was also pointed out that with all the bonuses, partners, and other gimmicks, my simple logic could be gamed.


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## AlanB (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm not sure who said that the two systems aren't linked, but that's not true. If you call an AGR agent to book an award trip, he/she is in ARROW just like any agent that you reached through Julie would be or if you visited a station in person.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 9, 2009)

PaulM said:


> However, as we all know, tickets and points are handled by two different companies. More to the point, it was mentioned in the the prior AU discussion to which I referred, that the two companies' computers don't talk to one another.


The two companies access Amtrak reservations through the same computer reservation system. It is the people who do not talk to each other.


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