# July 1st Service Change Recap



## peconicstation (Jun 17, 2015)

With July 1st just under 2 weeks away, this is a good time to recap what changes are due to take effect July 1st.

As we all know the Silver Star will no longer offer a full service dining car, as part of a "test" to run through January of'16.

The lounge car will offer Amtraks National Cafe Car Menu as it's only food offerings.

It has been reported that the City of New Orleans will loose it's on-board chef, and it's meal service will mirror what is offered on the Cardinal.

Are there any other changes that take effect that day ?

Ken


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## CCC1007 (Jun 17, 2015)

Doesn't the star also transfer one sleeper to the meteor?


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## Acela150 (Jun 17, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> Doesn't the star also transfer one sleeper to the meteor?


Not sure where you heard that.


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## CCC1007 (Jun 17, 2015)

I heard that here, back when the diner news first broke...


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## AmtrakLKL (Jun 17, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> Doesn't the star also transfer one sleeper to the meteor?


Dropping the Dining Car is the only change to the Silver Star on July 1. It will retain checked baggage service, two sleepers, lounge and four coaches. Whether it gets bumped up to three sleepers and five coaches over the holidays again is yet to be seen. I assume booking trends with the new fares between now and then will determine the holiday plans. If the Star does gain holiday capacity, it will be rather interesting to see one LSA take care of 325+ passengers. Let's hope they get the inventory levels right (keeping in mind that running out of some items towards the end-of-trip is exactly how the system is supposed to work.)


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## Shortline (Jun 17, 2015)

Thanks for posting this, we usually take the CONO once a year or so, was going to book an august trip. Think I'll pass now. If they're removing chefs off that train, wouldn't surprise me to see them do it on the TE too. If that happens, I'm all but out of train options. Hopefully this is a temporary trial and not the beginnings of another service related death spiral.


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## Triley (Jun 18, 2015)

AmtrakLKL said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't the star also transfer one sleeper to the meteor?
> ...


Hopefully it's someone who has experienced crowds because it can get overwhelming. That said, most of the average Regionals will have 275+. The busier ones out of Boston (93/86, 195/194, 95/94, 99/194, 171/176) on a very quiet trip will have 350+, on those weekend runs, expect to peak at over 500.

It's non-stop, with no end in sight, but it is possible to handle.


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## battalion51 (Jun 19, 2015)

Keep in mind though that on the Regionals people often eat before or after their trip since its only a few hours on average. On a long distance train people often eat at least one meal if not more.


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## Anderson (Jun 19, 2015)

battalion51 said:


> Keep in mind though that on the Regionals people often eat before or after their trip since its only a few hours on average. On a long distance train people often eat at least one meal if not more.


This is a major point (a four hour trip is quite different from a twenty hour trip). Stocking also seems to be an issue...I believe that a Regional can, in a pinch, do a partial reload of food in New York or Washington. The Silvers can reload some stuff in DC if needed, but south of there I think the only _maybe_ point to reload would be Savannah (and that's a big "maybe" since I don't recall if the Palmetto can restock there).


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## DryCreek (Jun 19, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> With July 1st just under 2 weeks away, this is a good time to recap what changes are due to take effect July 1st.
> 
> As we all know the Silver Star will no longer offer a full service dining car, as part of a "test" to run through January of'16.
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with the food offerings on the Cardinal - what does this mean? Boxed lunches or no diner service at all?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 19, 2015)

DryCreek said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > With July 1st just under 2 weeks away, this is a good time to recap what changes are due to take effect July 1st.
> ...


Convection Oven - food prepped in the "cafe". Half the car is diner, half is cafe.


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## peconicstation (Jun 20, 2015)

Here are the menu offerings at present, on The Cardinal.

Since it lacks a full kitchen and chef, menu items like fresh scrambled eggs, and the flat iron steak are not offered.

On the other hand it offers different menu items than the now standardized nationwide LD dining car menu.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=19D5A58FFAC9A0EC80ECFF100B46849C0630B0B9CA60B61C&EV=2

Ken


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## TiBike (Jun 20, 2015)

That looks as good as or maybe better than what's in the regular dining cars.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 20, 2015)

TiBike said:


> That looks as good as or maybe better than what's in the regular dining cars.


I've enjoyed my trips and meals on the Card! The bad part is the Diner Lite itself ( neither a Lounge nor a Diner) and the only less than good menu item, the French Toast " sticks"!


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## ABQFloridian (Jun 20, 2015)

So is the CONO change a sure thing? Can anyone provide a source?


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## JoeRids (Jun 20, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> > That looks as good as or maybe better than what's in the regular dining cars.
> ...


Agreed. The food is not the worst problem; it's the layout of the cars. Some tables have no window next to them, and another 2 person table faces a blank wall. Also on the Cardinal trip I took back in 2010 (granted it may have changed), one of the tables with a window was used for plate, utensil and condement storage. There is little attempt to liven up the car decor wise; it's basically plain booths and vinyl walls. Included also is a "conductor office"; why would conducters use this space when they can easily take 2 two or more tables on the other side of the car from paying passengers? (In fairness, the space is small and unappealing.)


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## Amtrak George (Jun 20, 2015)

Oh No! the dinner options on the Cardinal look pretty pathetic. I hope this menu is not adopted for the CONO.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2015)

I would suggest the short rib. I thought it was quite tasty!

Have Fun


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## Bill (Jun 20, 2015)

Not the best to me. Pulled out of Chicago one time and ordered ice cream and was told they forgot to put it on.Shoulda told me they ran out but being the first and only one in the dinner...boring car for sure but I only ride it to and from Cincinnati to Chicago.


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## DryCreek (Jun 20, 2015)

Thanks for getting me up to speed on the diner-lite thing. It sounds like a single level attempt to mimic the Coast To Coast lounge failure in the Superliner fleet. The one on the Texas Eagle is a waste of space.


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 20, 2015)

The TE DC and Cafe hours seem to be shrinking (DC 6:30 - 8:30 / 12:30 - 1:30 / 5:30 - 7:30), café is open until 10 PM with numerous 90 minute breaks and a very limited selection.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 20, 2015)

Lonestar648 said:


> The TE DC and Cafe hours seem to be shrinking (DC 6:30 - 8:30 / 12:30 - 1:30 / 5:30 - 7:30), café is open until 10 PM with numerous 90 minute breaks and a very limited selection.


Bad news for us here in Austin and Eagle riders!

Wonder if they are fixing to eliminate the Cafe LSA position like on the CONO and move the Cafe to the CCC??

On #22 last call for Breakfast was @ Austin ( 9:30am), Lunch started after the Temple stop ( 11:[email protected]) with last call @_Ft. Worth and Dinner started in East Texas after the Mineola stop.( LSA took Dinner rez after Dallas stop)

On #21, Lunch started after the Dallas stop( [email protected]) and Last Call was leaving Ft. Worth. Dinner started after Temple ( 5pm First Call) with Last Call after the Austin stop. ( 630pm)

The Cafe Hours were always until 1030pm on #21 and #22 with 1 hour meal breaks for the LSA which were announced with notice to allow passengers to stock up!


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## Lonestar648 (Jun 20, 2015)

I rode #22 on the 18th (SAS-CHI). They finished breakfast before Austin, Lunch started just before 12:30, and last call was less than 60 minutes later. Dinner was either 5:30 or 6:30. Breakfast started at 6:30 the next morning and last call for the wait list was 8:15. They were out of some items on the menu from the very start. I have seen the café have twice the selection I saw on this trip.

With the rain, many of the seats in the SLC were soaked with dripping from the roof windows. The DC was not a CCC so they only used 4 rows of booths. Also, the SC was on the rear instead of next to the DC.

Also, the SCA said he was changing trains but refused to say why. He was excellent trying to anticipate everyone's needs.


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## Train2104 (Jul 2, 2015)

The first Silver Star pair have completed their dinerless runs. Any reports?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 4, 2015)

Train2104 said:


> The first Silver Star pair have completed their dinerless runs. Any reports?


http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3784555

For the record, keep a sharp on the east day tripper trains. There will be a slight change to one of them soon.


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## peconicstation (Jul 4, 2015)

The food facts site has the new menu for the City of New Orleans, as speculated it is very similar to the Cardinal's offerings.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=D41EB01771057D8399BF1CA08C28F32F92090B4A1FB15972&EV=2


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## SteveSFL (Jul 5, 2015)

Yuck to the CONO menu.


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## Anderson (Jul 5, 2015)

(1) I was on 92 last night. Had a lively time in the cafe with other pax, but the lack of dinner sucked. I had a cup of noodles and a hot chocolate, stayed up until about 0400, and made a point to rack out until we were as close to PTB as possible. Bottom line for this: 91 is no longer a feasible choice for me to Florida since it leaves at about 1700 from Richmond and I want more than cafe food for dinner. If I'm forced onto it (say, 97 is $600+ on a blackout day I need to travel) then I'll pack an MRE (and I'll remember some cheese spread packets to swap around with other pax). 92 remains feasible heading north because it offers a private room option and I can grab dinner in DC or New York.

(2) On the CONO...well, there's always Iowa Pacific to take if you can travel on their trip dates...><


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## Train2104 (Jul 5, 2015)

Anderson said:


> (1) I was on 92 last night. Had a lively time in the cafe with other pax, but the lack of dinner sucked. I had a cup of noodles and a hot chocolate, stayed up until about 0400, and made a point to rack out until we were as close to PTB as possible. Bottom line for this: 91 is no longer a feasible choice for me to Florida since it leaves at about 1700 from Richmond and I want more than cafe food for dinner. If I'm forced onto it (say, 97 is $600+ on a blackout day I need to travel) then I'll pack an MRE (and I'll remember some cheese spread packets to swap around with other pax). 92 remains feasible heading north because it offers a private room option and I can grab dinner in DC or New York.


What would you say the general passenger sentiment was? Anger? Acceptance given the low fares?


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## Ryan (Jul 5, 2015)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Train2104 said:
> 
> 
> > The first Silver Star pair have completed their dinerless runs. Any reports?
> ...


Dining cars on the Palmetto?


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## Lonestar648 (Jul 6, 2015)

The DC crew on the 22 SAS-CHI late last month acted like they didn't expect to be working much longer. Not caring, very short dining hours, only 2 seatings at Dinner, also, being out of many items. The 21 DC crew was more positive, but were turned at FTW on the delayed 22 heading to Chicago, resulting in a mini dinner service without the cook and servers, and less a Coach and the Cafe attendants. Sleeper Attendant stayed on. Reason given was that several of the 21 crew of the previous day decided not to do the return trip on the 22 we were meeting.


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## Acela150 (Jul 7, 2015)

Photo of 91 with no diner.

http://chuchubob.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4234507


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 7, 2015)

Lonestar648 said:


> The DC crew on the 22 SAS-CHI late last month acted like they didn't expect to be working much longer. Not caring, very short dining hours, only 2 seatings at Dinner, also, being out of many items. The 21 DC crew was more positive, but were turned at FTW on the delayed 22 heading to Chicago, resulting in a mini dinner service without the cook and servers, and less a Coach and the Cafe attendants. Sleeper Attendant stayed on. Reason given was that several of the 21 crew of the previous day decided not to do the return trip on the 22 we were meeting.


Looks like sound reasoning on their part. With several staunchly anti-rail folks already elected and several more running for the highest office in the land I would expect to see deeper and deeper cuts over time. Surely they know as well as the private railroads that if you make the trip uncomfortable enough the passengers will leave and once those numbers have suffered sufficiently there will be little if any push back from dropping the route itself. If there is a path forward where Amtrak ends up stronger in the future than it is today I cannot yet foresee it.


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## dlagrua (Jul 7, 2015)

The cuts in food service are very irritating to say the least. You pay a high price for a roomette or bedroom and we should expect and have every right to deserve good food.

As for the Cardinal menu we have had it a few times. In August as part of our Colorado trip we will connect through Chicago twice.

The French toast sticks and the rubbery omelette are terrible. The rest of the cuisine is similar to prepared frozen food but passable. I just could not imagine more than one overnight trip where we would have to eat this food. I hope that ridership on the star plunges Its the only way that sleeper passengers will get the diner back and what about all the new Viewliner diners that Amtrak has on order with Allstom? By the way things are unfolding maybe they will turn into buffet service cars.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 7, 2015)

dlagrua said:


> The cuts in food service are very irritating to say the least. You pay a high price for a roomette … and have every right to … good food.
> 
> As for the Cardinal menu ... terrible. ... I hope that ridership on the Star plunges...


Amtrak probably needs to make some dramatic cuts, even if, or maybe especially if, they expect a lot of blowback from unhappy riders. But they have to try ugly stuff before they can tell Congress, "We took drastic steps and it didn't go well.

Hope that food service will bounce back, at least in the East, after the new diners go into service next year.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 7, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > The DC crew on the 22 SAS-CHI late last month acted like they didn't expect to be working much longer. ...
> ...


It's hard to predict, especially about the future. But I'm not quite so pessimistic.

The 2010 elections brought a lot of haters into Congress. Even so, the House's proposed cuts to Amtrak are stupid, but not massive nor fatal. If Amtrak survives without worse cuts until the 2016 elections, well, then it survives a few more years.

In 2017 the story line could change as the Stimulus projects come on line chiefly in Illinois, Michigan, and the Pacific Northwest, but also in NC and New England. Ridership will rise smartly along with positive media.

Meanwhile, despite the haters, the old rules of politics may still come to apply: Pressure will grow to fix the NEC, and I don't see investing a Billion in a new Portal bridge without investing another Billion elsewhere in the country. Maybe CAHSR could suck up a Billion easily, but that wouldn't solve the political imperative to spread the butter around. Amtrak directly may not get much cash, but if, for example, the SOTL project thru indiana moves ahead, and/or the corridor train St Paul-Milwaukee-Chicago gets funds, the whole system would benefit a from those upgraded corridors.

Meanwhile, the 175 shiny new bi-levels and the 25 shiny new Viewliners will do more than help the image. A daily _Cardinal_ would probably show good results. (We haven't heard a peep about what capital improvements there would cost, except that $200 million in Indiana would cut 30 minutes from its Chicago arrival time.) And it's rumored that the Eastern trains will get Wi-Fi soonish. In a few years, the Eastern trains are probably going to be close to break-even as a group, and they'll be safe.

The Western LD trains do appear to be at risk. But the most interesting thing about the ruckus over movng the _Southwest Chief _to the Transcon route was that there was such a *ruckus *in Kansas and Colorado. Apparently enuff heat to get politicians on board to prevent the discontinuance. Now even Gov Martinez in NM is trying to get herself into the picture as helping to save the train. If the haters can't kill off or even reroute one relatively weak LD train, can they kill them all off at once? Won't the citizens rally to keep them?

Be nice to think that staffing changes on the _Texas Eagle_ are coming down the track because a daily _Eagle/Sunset_ is on its way.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm not going to start rumor mongering about the Eagles, but after what's happened to food service on the Star and the CONO, don't be shocked if the CCC on the Eagles is changed over to be the same as the CONO!


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## afigg (Jul 8, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Looks like sound reasoning on their part. With several staunchly anti-rail folks already elected and several more running for the highest office in the land I would expect to see deeper and deeper cuts over time. Surely they know as well as the private railroads that if you make the trip uncomfortable enough the passengers will leave and once those numbers have suffered sufficiently there will be little if any push back from dropping the route itself. If there is a path forward where Amtrak ends up stronger in the future than it is today I cannot yet foresee it.


I don't think the future for Amtrak is that bleak. We don't know what is going to happen in the 2016 elections, but the odds are fair that the Democrats will take control back in the Senate. Regardless of whether the Dems take control of the Senate, Senator Schumer (D-NYC) will be succeeding Reid as the Majority or Minority Leader. Schumer's interest with respect to Amtrak will be the NEC and eastern routes, but he will be in a position as either Majority or Minority leader to look out for Amtrak. The House is very likely to remain in Republican control, but the Dems are almost certain to pick up seats in 2016. As for the White House, yes, it could be a problem if either Governor Walker or Kasich is elected President, but I don't see either of them winning the general election, except maybe as a long shot in the VP slot.

So, Amtrak will, at a minimum, continue to muddle along after the 2016 elections with a boost in 2017 for the corridor services and to an extent, the LD trains, from the completion of a bunch of stimulus and FY10 funded projects and new rolling stock. As for dining car service, we will see how the the Silver Star and CONO "experiments" go.


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## cirdan (Jul 8, 2015)

How unfortunate. I have already booked a CONO trip in November with two friends. One of them has never been on Amtrak before so I was hoping to show him some of the best.

Maybe next time I should book on Iowa Pacific.


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## andersone (Jul 8, 2015)

if Kasich wins the WH maybe his replacement will view OH trains differently,,,,,, COL to CHI?


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## yarrow (Jul 8, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> The food facts site has the new menu for the City of New Orleans, as speculated it is very similar to the Cardinal's offerings.
> 
> http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/lp.do?sk=D41EB01771057D8399BF1CA08C28F32F92090B4A1FB15972&EV=2


don't the cono meals look generally awful in the food facts pics?


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## Shortline (Jul 8, 2015)

yarrow said:


> peconicstation said:
> 
> 
> > The food facts site has the new menu for the City of New Orleans, as speculated it is very similar to the Cardinal's offerings.
> ...


Yes. Yes they do.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 8, 2015)

How current are the various Meal Specials on the Food Facts? Some of those look pretty good!


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## Ryan (Jul 8, 2015)

> This list is compiled based on information provided by Amtrak approved food suppliers, as of 5/8/13.


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## Shortline (Jul 8, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> How current are the various Meal Specials on the Food Facts? Some of those look pretty good!


The chicken lunch special is good. Had it once, a year ago. Last 5 trains I have been on, had it on the menu, but not on board. Go figure.


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## keelhauled (Jul 8, 2015)

Shortline said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > peconicstation said:
> ...


In fairness if you look at the picture of the famed steak in the diner it looks like a charred piece of indeterminate greyish meat with canned vegetables and an unadorned potato that may or may not be raw. Perhaps a single low resolution photo should not be considered enough to pass immediate judgment.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 8, 2015)

Shortline said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > How current are the various Meal Specials on the Food Facts? Some of those look pretty good!
> ...


I have had the Lunch Chicken as well a few times and enjoyed it; I just wish they'd bring back the Lamb Shank system wide!


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## Shortline (Jul 8, 2015)

keelhauled said:


> Shortline said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


I had that the other night. For the record, the potato was raw. The rest, as described!


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## tommylicious (Jul 9, 2015)

Republicans definitely have the right recipe to shut down Amtrak with the onboard service cuts. So bad, so sad.


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## SteveSFL (Jul 13, 2015)

Just got done with a very disappointing dinner in the new diner-lite on the City of New Orleans (northbound). Of the four entree choices, I decided on the beef shortrib, which I've had on other trains.

This is not the same. It reminded me of a can of Chunky soup. It was a bowl with small chunks of meat in a brown sauce with a small pile of veggies on one side and a plop of polenta on the other. It is amazing that Amtrak has the nerve to put a $25 price tag on that. I'll rank it right up there with the boxed breakfast out of Spokane for worst Amtrak meal.

But someone at another table had the fish entree and you could smell it in the whole dining car. Both me and the other person at my table thought it smelled like a fish market.

One person from coach was seated at our table and when she looked at the menu and saw they didn't have the steak, she got up and left.

I will definitely be calling Amtrak to express my displeasure with this change on the City of New Orleans train.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 13, 2015)

Hopefully this foolishness won't spread to the CONO's sister Train, the Texas Eagle, though there are rumors that it's bein g considered by the 60 Mass Bean Counters!


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## SteveSFL (Jul 13, 2015)

I have a trip in September with a friend and we plan to fly from Houston to NOL and then take the train from NOL-CHI-WAS-MIA but I'm thinking of just taking the bus to Longview to catch the Eagle there. But it would suck if we changed our plans to avoid the CONO and ended up with diner-lite-crap on the Eagle, too.

I'm sorry if it sounds like Amtrak bashing, but this is about the most disappointed I've been in Amtrak in a long time. At least they didn't kill the diner altogether, but in the long run they'd probably save more money doing that. Current sleeping car passengers aren't going to like paying full fare for Diner-lite so they could fill the sleepers with coach people that are used to eating from the cafe.

Like a light bulb, their bottom line would burn brightly just before it's extinguished completely.

One foot in the grave.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 13, 2015)

Steve: you might want to consider flying or taking the Sunset to NOL, then take the Crescent to WAS, then the Meteor to MIA! ( forge the Star since it doesn't have a Diner @ all!!) This way you'd have real Diners the whole way unless some bean counting empty suit decides to expand this Moronic scheme to those trains too!


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## haolerider (Jul 14, 2015)

Jim, I actually think this is a tool for Amtrak management to show the negative effect not having a dining car can have on LD trains. While the "bean counters" you refer to may be in the Congress, I don't think anyone in Amtrak thinks it is a great idea to eliminate dining cars. Of course, I could be wrong! It would be amazing if not having a dining car has no effect on ridership!


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 14, 2015)

haolerider said:


> Jim, I actually think this is a tool for Amtrak management to show the negative effect not having a dining car can have on LD trains. While the "bean counters" you refer to may be in the Congress, I don't think anyone in Amtrak thinks it is a great idea to eliminate dining cars. Of course, I could be wrong! It would be amazing if not having a dining car has no effect on ridership!


I was in Philly on Saturday and decided to use a coupon to go to the Acela Lounge in 30th Street and relax for a while. While I was in there, I asked the desk attendant if he had noticed any change in the proportion of passengers taking the Star or the Meteor since the dining car experiment. He said he hasn't seen any difference.

I wonder if some passengers don't yet realize what's going on and assumed they would have meals on the Star?

It's been a couple of weeks, now--any updates from anyone who has traveled on the Star recently? Reactions on board? Mood of passengers and crew? Or anyone seen a difference on the Meteor--more crowding in the dining car and full sleepers, for example?


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 14, 2015)

OK . . . . I went on the Cardinal on July 2-3. Food was between mediocre and tasty (basically pretty good). Weird waiter though. Kept forgetting stuff and mixing up who ordered what. I wouldn't mind if that happened on the City of New Orleans. Kinda sad that this does happen.


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## iPat09 (Jul 14, 2015)

I'm departing on the CONO with my parents, brother and sister next week on the 21. My brother and I were last on Amtrak two years ago. As for everyone else, it's been since 2006. My mom has really been looking forward to eating in the diner (I've had to explain to her that it is now a CCC, and what that is). Maybe now I should start warning about them getting hopes too high. I agree with others on here. Too much money to reserve a sleeper and then get food like this. I am halfway considering just staying in my room and eating something I bring on my own. That menu is an embarrassment. As far as my 17 day long trip in January, I'm hoping this doesn't spread to other trains by then. If it does, I will seriously consider canceling. I'm not spending two weeks eating that mess.


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## Lonestar648 (Jul 15, 2015)

There is a test period for the Food Service degrading, but is there any hope Amtrak will be allowed to revert back to normal DC menus? Also, I wander who is judging/preparing the results - Congress? so they get the results to make them look good?


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## VentureForth (Jul 16, 2015)

Anyone been on the Meteor in the last two weeks?


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## Michael061282 (Jul 16, 2015)

A friend of mine took the last CONO with a full diner on June 30, he's even got a menu autographed by the chef.

The Capitol Limited seems to have closed their downstairs cafe in the lounge car , though it still has a sightseer lounge, when i rode it last week they were using something that looked like a refurbished Cross Country Cafe. Only 1 side of the diner was used at a dining car the other half was used as a cafe lounge. It wasn't working too well at all, the've cut back to 1 waiter and were only taking 12 people per dinner seating. As a result , "last call" for dinner happened just after 11:00pm Eastern. They were hustling people in and out of the diner too, we had about 20 minutes to sit, order, eat and leave. I ended up having to take half of my steak back to my room (the steak and the RR French Toast I had for breakfast were still TOP CLASS) I don't know if it was just for the summer or what but there is a 3rd complete sleeper on the Capitol Limited right now. And they are still selling rooms in the TransDorm. Sleepers were sold out through Cumberland MD according to one of the conductors. I also have NO idea why but in the sleepers you get blankets still in their wrappers. Evidently it is now up to you to make up your own. I really don't like that. Neither did my SCA Lou.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 16, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> Anyone been on the Meteor in the last two weeks?


Penny just got off in PHL from ORL, and posted in the thread about meals in the Diner on the Meteor from Winter Park to WAS!


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## neroden (Jul 16, 2015)

Michael061282 said:


> Only 1 side of the diner was used at a dining car the other half was used as a cafe lounge. It wasn't working too well at all, the've cut back to 1 waiter and were only taking 12 people per dinner seating. As a result , "last call" for dinner happened just after 11:00pm Eastern. They were hustling people in and out of the diner too, we had about 20 minutes to sit, order, eat and leave.


Disgusting. Utter incompetence by Amtrak management. Complete waste. For the cost of an extra waiter, they could have actually served the crowds...



> I don't know if it was just for the summer or what but there is a 3rd complete sleeper on the Capitol Limited right now. And they are still selling rooms in the TransDorm. Sleepers were sold out through Cumberland MD according to one of the conductors.


And yet this is what's supposed to be going on. These are the economies of scale which make railroading work. This is good! But why are they sabotaging it with incompetent dining service? Terrible.



> I also have NO idea why but in the sleepers you get blankets still in their wrappers. Evidently it is now up to you to make up your own. I really don't like that. Neither did my SCA Lou.


Apparently it's a "hygeine" thing. The blankets used to be used for a whole trip, reused for each subsequent passenger, and now you're guaranteed a "fresh" blanket. I suppose the wrapper is a way of proving that it's fresh.


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## Anderson (Jul 17, 2015)

With the blanket thing...yeah, that was being floated as a hygiene thing. That said..._please_ complain to management about that if you're not thrilled with it (as I'll be if I ever end up on a train with said "service option").


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## jis (Jul 17, 2015)

I actually prefer to get the blanket in a wrapper. Anyone who wishes to have it unpacked and put on bed can ask the SCA to do so and I am sure they will oblige. But the default should be delivery in wrapper.


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## OBS (Jul 18, 2015)

Who wouldn't want to be ASSURED of receiving a clean, wrapped blanket?


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## SarahZ (Jul 18, 2015)

neroden said:


> The blankets used to be used for a whole trip, reused for each subsequent passenger, and now you're guaranteed a "fresh" blanket. I suppose the wrapper is a way of proving that it's fresh.


Wrong. Both the blankets and sheets are changed between passengers.


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## fillyjonk (Jul 18, 2015)

Ugh. I have a trip on the TE coming up in a couple weeks and I get on at MIN. Of course the Eagle is frequently late....so if it's expected in after 7:30, does that mean I just grab a hamburger at the Texas Burger Company or something, and not count on being able to get dinner, if they're shortening the meal period?

I remember a time when I got on a couple minutes after 9 pm (very late Eagle) and the SCA sent me down to the DC to see if I could get dinner....yes, they served me, yes, it was good service (not surly, not, "When are you gonna get done so we can close up"). Yes, I tipped accordingly.

I don't MIND having to grab my own burger or something if the Eagle is really late but I need to know FOR SURE. None of this, "The dining car might still be open after 7:30 pm or it might not." That's the biggest issue for me with Amtrak lately: you can't know ANYTHING: whether there will be bottled water in the sleepers. What the mealtimes are....

(If a sleeper pax gets on a very late train after the diner closes, can they get lounge car food (within reason) comped, or do they have to pay out of their pocket? If I'm gonna pay I'd rather get a good burger at a restaurant in town than hope they still have mini pizzas in the lounge....)


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## willem (Jul 18, 2015)

On my Empire Builder trip in May, neither direction had a wrapped blanket. One leg started at an origin station; in that case, I think it's reasonable to have the blanket already on the bed. What do you think?


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## neroden (Jul 18, 2015)

"Used to" is the operative phrasing, and yes, I've found documentation of the past practice. I think that practice actually ended before the blankets started coming wrapped...

It's totally OK as far as I am concerned for the attendant to unwrap the blanket and make the bed.


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## greatcats (Jul 18, 2015)

I think the wrapped blankets are an excellent idea, a shining star among the other recent boneheaded decisions.


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## willem (Jul 18, 2015)

greatcats said:


> I think the wrapped blankets are an excellent idea, a shining star among the other recent boneheaded decisions.


Well put!


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 18, 2015)

It would not bother me at all to have to place a blanket on my berth; after all you usually have to tear the linens apart to be able to get into the thing to start with.


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## Palmetto (Jul 19, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> It would not bother me at all to have to place a blanket on my berth; after all you usually have to tear the linens apart to be able to get into the thing to start with.


This is true. Some SCAs tuck 'em in pretty tight!!


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## jis (Jul 19, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> It would not bother me at all to have to place a blanket on my berth; after all you usually have to tear the linens apart to be able to get into the thing to start with.


These days I don't bother with trying to get the linen untucked. I just spread out the blanket and cover myself with it. Works just fine with much less effort and is much more like what I do at home anyway!


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 19, 2015)

jis said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > It would not bother me at all to have to place a blanket on my berth; after all you usually have to tear the linens apart to be able to get into the thing to start with.
> ...


Well, there's another labor-saving idea. Srsly. Put a wrapped top sheet beside the blanket. No more complaints about sheets too tightly tucked. And much more like what I do at home anyway!


----------



## jis (Jul 19, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > OlympianHiawatha said:
> ...


Indeed!


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## tricia (Jul 19, 2015)

Am I the only person reading this thread who does NOT want to get on a train late at night and have to make up my own bed?


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## VentureForth (Jul 19, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone been on the Meteor in the last two weeks?
> ...


Wondering if it is more crowded than usual with the Star cuts...


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## boxcarsyix (Jul 19, 2015)

"Am I the only person reading this thread who does NOT want to get on a train late at night and have to make up my own bed?"

No you're not!


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## Lonestar648 (Jul 19, 2015)

One trip last month the blanket was in a sealed plastic bag, but our return departing CHI the bed was totally made up, nothing in a bag.

I as well do not want to get on a train, like the SL in LA or SAS and have to make my bed.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 20, 2015)

tricia said:


> Am I the only person reading this thread who does NOT want to get on a train late at night and have to make up my own bed?


What's to making a bed, when you have a bottom fitted sheet put in place before you enter the room? Open the package. Spread the top sheet past the end where your feet will be, and tuck that in. Spread blanket. Easy to get your body into the bed.

Do you really feel that you're in an unmade bed if the top sheet isn't tucked in on three sides so that to get your body into the bed you must halfway *unmake* it? LOL.

O.K., with technology it should be possible for sleeper passengers to specify (a) if they want their bed fully made up or (b) if they prefer a fitted bottom sheet and to take care of the rest in their own way.


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## OBS (Jul 20, 2015)

Just one minor factual point. The fitted sheets went out with the heritage cars/mattresses. All flat. But point is well taken. But also can be perceived as a lack of "service" to have linens left for "self-service" use. Just because most posters on here may not mind, the general public way feel otherwise...


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## jis (Jul 20, 2015)

Yeah, I think it is more prudent to make up the bed to look the best from a business perspective. Folks like me just spend a minute to take it apart anyway, so no harm done. But still receiving the items that directly touches ones body in sealed wrapping makes me feel more comfortable for obvious reasons. However I can understand the business imperative to provide for the majority who perhaps are not as concerned about such things.


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## andersone (Jul 20, 2015)

it is easier to taketh it apart than to render it whole


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## tricia (Jul 20, 2015)

andersone said:


> it is easier to taketh it apart than to render it whole


^_^


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## Michael061282 (Jul 21, 2015)

tricia said:


> Am I the only person reading this thread who does NOT want to get on a train late at night and have to make up my own bed?


Nope you're not!


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 21, 2015)

Michael061282 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> > Am I the only person reading this thread who does NOT want to get on a train late at night and have to make up my own bed?
> ...


One of the greatest joys of travel for me is getting away from housework, and making beds is one of my least favorite chores, so put me in with those who would like it made up for me. I make sure not to put my face near the blanket, anyway, and keep hand sanitizer handy, for what it's worth.


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## Anderson (Jul 21, 2015)

andersone said:


> it is easier to taketh it apart than to render it whole


Are we talking about the blankets or the LD services as a whole?


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## andersone (Jul 21, 2015)

I believe more than 3,000 generations have survived before hand sanitizer


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## jis (Jul 21, 2015)

True that. And push comes to shove I have handled situations with a level of lack of sanitation that is beyond anything that most of you in the US can imagine. But that does not mean I would, given a choice, choose the less sanitary alternative simply because I have possibly survived far worse.


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## iPat09 (Jul 22, 2015)

On 58 this morning. Only thing offered for breakfast is the "continental" breakfast. Choice of cereal and drink. That's it.


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## neroden (Jul 22, 2015)

iPat09 said:


> On 58 this morning. Only thing offered for breakfast is the "continental" breakfast. Choice of cereal and drink. That's it.


Oh good ***ing grief. This is disgusting. Is Amtrak trying to make the dining cars lose money? I basically go to the dining car for the omelettes at this point. Without that, what are they offering?


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## fillyjonk (Jul 22, 2015)

Wow, was there any explanation given? A couple trips ago on the TE their breakfast was limited to (IIRC) scrambled eggs vs. French toast vs. Continental and the explanation given was the commissary donked up. But at least there we had a CHOICE.

I'd probably be on the phone to Customer Relations or whatever - there's a posted menu and you can't get what's on it? What about people on a low carb diet or who have to limit carbohydrates because of diabetes? I get that the Continental also has fruit and yogurt, but that makes for a disappointing breakfast....


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 22, 2015)

The CONO (#58/#59) lost their Chef in the latest scheme to "save" money in the Diners. So the Limited Food Service crew has to heat up the limited offerings.

The Cafe LSA also now operates out of the "Lounge"portion of the CCC, sort of a Diner Lite in a Superliner like on the Cardinal! 

Its a long way from the Kings Dinner in the Panama Ltd.to today's offerings on this route.

Perhaps Amtrak will rename the CONO to it's old unofficial name, " The Chicken Bone Express!"


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## OBS (Jul 22, 2015)

By all means, call and voice your unhappiness with customer service...


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## neroden (Jul 22, 2015)

Yeah, I'd actually demand compensation for not providing the advertised menu. I mean, being short one item is one thing, but this is ridiculous.


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## fillyjonk (Jul 22, 2015)

I hope Amtrak is not copying a page from some Airlines, and when people get on in the future, they're handed half a can of soda and a bag of pretzels and are told that's their food for the duration....


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## jis (Jul 22, 2015)

They do less than that in coach on Amtrak already. They require you to purchase any food that you have that you don't happen to bring along, including the drink. On some airlines the drink is still free in coach.

OTOH on most airlines with first class there is full meal with beverages including alcoholic, included in the fare, just like on Acelas (but not even in Sleepers) on Amtrak.


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## iPat09 (Jul 22, 2015)

We eventually got yogurt and and bread with it, but the type of cereal and juice was all we got to choose from. On the other hand, I am now on the southbound Texas eagle and they have already said they will be serving steaks. (Also we just had someone arrested off the train for having an invalid ticket, refusing to call Amtrak and arguing with the conductor)


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## SteveSFL (Jul 22, 2015)

I called Customer Relations today and expressed my disgust with the dining car change on the CONO. (I was on 58(13)). I told them that it was worse than a school cafeteria. I told them that the braised beef shortrib wasn't even as good as a can of chunky vegetable beef soup and that they should be ashamed to have a $25 price tag for it on the menu. I also mentioned the three breakfast choices: corn flakes, raisin bran, and frosted flakes.

The agent seemed to not be aware of the recent change as he asked me if I had ridden CONO before and it was different.

Please call and let them know. If I lived in Chicago or NOL, I'd go down to the station and hand out preprinted cards with the number to customer relations to all the passengers asking them to call (of course the crew made an announcement about that on my train).


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## Phil S (Jul 23, 2015)

neroden said:


> iPat09 said:
> 
> 
> > On 58 this morning. Only thing offered for breakfast is the "continental" breakfast. Choice of cereal and drink. That's it.
> ...


Scrambled eggs. At least they don't taste like plastic cheese, inside some sort of rubber egg wrapping.. Yes, tastes vary. Glad you found something you like! , Cheers, Phil


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## iPat09 (Jul 23, 2015)

Now that my trip is just about finished (a little ways outside Longview) I'll post my opinion on the dining service from two different trains.

On the City of New Orleans, I had the jambalaya for dinner, and it couldn't have been anything more than food out of a can. Very little rice included. If I was in coach, I wouldn't be happy paying for that. With breakfast, you choose from 3 cereals, and you get yogurt and bread included. That is it. No eggs, no bacon or sausage, no French toast.

Fast forward to today, and I'm on the Texas Eagle. Dining service was a completely different experience. Steak for dinner, which I thought was very well done. French toast for breakfast, which was also very good.

One thing I noticed. On the CONO, there was one server, but attendants from other cars would come and help with cleanup. On TE, there is one server, but also an assistant who would clean, bring out drinks and sometimes food, while the server took care of seating, ordering, and just about everything else.

Between the two trains, I would say it was a night and day difference.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 23, 2015)

In all fairness to the Chicken Bone Express (_City of New Orleans_) since this cut over to simplified dining is new, we may want to give them a few turns to see if things smooth out and improve. If they do not from what iPat09 has reported, we could be looking at a Terror Train indeed  :angry:


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 23, 2015)

Perhaps they will use these experiments as a basis for future contract negotiations?


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## yarrow (Jul 23, 2015)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Perhaps they will use these experiments as a basis for future contract negotiations?


nothing like being a guinea pig


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## SteveSFL (Jul 23, 2015)

The staff on the CONO mentioned that this dining experiment had been done once in the past but was reversed after an avalanche of customer complaints. Does anyone know if this current experiment on the CONO has a designated end date that we may have to suffer through?

Just for fun, I put a photo of Chunky Vegetable Beef soup side-by-side with Amtrak's $25 Beef Short-Ribs in Red Wine Sauce entree from the CONO dinner menu.


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## rrdude (Jul 23, 2015)

SteveSTX said:


> The staff on the CONO mentioned that this dining experiment had been done once in the past but was reversed after an avalanche of customer complaints. Does anyone know if this current experiment on the CONO has a designated end date that we may have to suffer through?


I was an OBS during, what I think was the first, "Modified Meal Service" experiment, guessing maybe 1979 or 1980? and it was an UTTER failure. Amtrak was inundated with complaints. We did not go "all the way back", but kept some changes, (fewer waiter/waitresses in the diner, and reduced meal options) It was very, very, hard to serve passengers, that's why I got LSA-Trained, so I didn't have to work the diners anymore.


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## fillyjonk (Jul 23, 2015)

I have a trip on the TE next week, here's hoping the dining car expereince is still as good as iPat09 reported. (The meals I've had on the TE ranged from excellent to extremely meh, including one I would have sent back were it not the "grumpy" crew on the car).

If I can get the steak for dinner and French Toast for breakfast, I'm happy.

One thing I will say about dining car experiences I've had: it seems to depend greatly on the crew. On some trips I've taken, the crew has been efficient and cheerful, and everything was happy and ran smoothly. On others, now, maybe the crew was tired and was coming up on their "days off" but there were times someone from my table had to get up and find a crew member to take our order after we'd been sitting there 15 minutes. Or the crew member would bring stuff out one thing at a time. Or they were kind of cranky with the passengers. I try to be friendly myself and polite but there were a few times I kind of wanted to snap back at a crew member. Not that that would have helped things....


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jul 23, 2015)

SteveSTX said:


> The staff on the CONO mentioned that this dining experiment had been done once in the past but was reversed after an avalanche of customer complaints. Does anyone know if this current experiment on the CONO has a designated end date that we may have to suffer through?
> 
> Just for fun, I put a photo of Chunky Vegetable Beef soup side-by-side with Amtrak's $25 Beef Short-Ribs in Red Wine Sauce entree from the CONO dinner menu.
> 
> ...


It looks like all you need to add is 1 hungry Hound!


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## SteveSFL (Jul 23, 2015)

"It looks like all you need to add is 1 hungry Hound!"

========

Hahaha! I was actually thinking of telling the customer relations guy that it reminded me of canned dog food, but I figured they wouldn't take my complaint seriously.


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## rrdude (Jul 24, 2015)

Seems to me, especially with a new web site update, Amtrak would at least put an asterisk on this description, taken directly off their web site today, regarding the STAR experiment. Sure, when you book the STAR, you get the "warning", but how hard would it be..........

Are meals included with my sleeping accommodations?Yes. Sleeping accommodations are considered "Sleeper Service" accommodations aboard Amtrak. As Sleeper Service passengers, you and your sleeping car companions (up to the maximum passenger capacity for your accommodation) are entitled to receive all regular meals as part of your accommodations


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## neroden (Jul 24, 2015)

WellTrained said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > iPat09 said:
> ...


Notice that the scrambled eggs were *also* missing from iPat09's trip. 



fillyjonk said:


> If I can get the steak for dinner and French Toast for breakfast, I'm happy.


And the French Toast was also missing. So, really, no acceptable breakfast options for any of us.

I suppose the grill could have been broken. Which is pretty unacceptable too.

I think we need to put out a warning that the CONO no longer has actual dining car service. The situation sounds worse than the Cardinal.


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## jis (Jul 24, 2015)

What they are doing on CONO is less honest than what they are doing on the Star IMHO. On the Star they clearly say that there is no dining car service. Of course one could correctly point out that it is much harder to say that there is modified dining car service when there is no dining car I suppose.


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## SteveSFL (Jul 24, 2015)

I don't think it was a matter of the grill being broken on the CONO. I think it is a matter of there being no employee to run the grill. I understand that the chef position has been eliminated, so the other employees just pop the prefab meals in the microwave. The "French toast sticks" or egg entree are just reheat entrees had they even been offered as an alternative to the mandatory continental breakfast.

The free breakfast I had at the Hampton Inn in New Orleans the day before my departure was vastly better than the meal on the CONO the next morning.


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## peconicstation (Aug 29, 2015)

Late as it is, the Amtrak website now has the correct menu posted for the City of New Orleans (and no longer shows a dining car menu for the Silver Star).

Questions have come up about what meals are served on the CONO, and the menu states that Lunch is only served Southbound, and Breakfast is the menu option one-way and just

continental the other.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/148/959/City-of-New-Orleans-Dining-Car-Menu-0715.pdf

Ken


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## yarrow (Aug 29, 2015)

peconicstation said:


> Late as it is, the Amtrak website now has the correct menu posted for the City of New Orleans (and no longer shows a dining car menu for the Silver Star).
> 
> Questions have come up about what meals are served on the CONO, and the menu states that Lunch is only served Southbound, and Breakfast is the menu option one-way and just
> 
> ...


the menu descriptions sound better than the pics in an above post and word of mouth make the food sound. i'll go with the pictures and word of mouth reports. find out for myself in early october


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## ohle (Aug 30, 2015)

From the Amtrak blog:



> A gentleman going from West Palm Beach to Orlando said he came south in coach, but* it was so filthy* he upgraded to a sleeper on the return trip. The Raleigh to D.C. woman did not know there wasn’t any diner or food service provided—she had not been notified.* Most said they would be willing to pay more to have a diner on the train.*


Funny how Amtrak didn't consider that option.

Instead of dumping the dining car, Amtrak could've made sleeping car passengers pay for their own meals.

Before herding passengers ( note I said "passengers," not ONLY sleeper patrons ) into the lounge car to wait in annoying long lines for the crummy "food," served by an impatient & overworked attendant, it should've beefed-up that service by adding another attendant ( at a minimum ) & redesigned the food offerings, offering more selections instead of the lousy junk food it sells that isn't even competitive with most fast-food joints.


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 30, 2015)

ohle said:


> From the Amtrak blog:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some here believe the diner was removed from the Silver Star due to the fact that they are due for maintenance and rather spend the money on maintenance for cars that are going to be retired <soon> when the new diners come on board, they decided to remove the oldest/worse in shape diners now and did so using the Silvers since the two trains run almost the same route.


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## ohle (Aug 30, 2015)

If it was a temporary move, this seems like an ill-conceived plan.

It's causing more harm than good.

Though Tampa is my closest station, am glad I booked my upcoming mid-Sept. trip on 98... Routing dictated as 91 doesn't go to Charleston. 

Am traveling to Savannah in January. 

I always take Amtrak instead of flying as airfares are uncompetitive.

Will again take 98, though it will be less convenient departing & returning from Winter Haven instead of Tampa, my closest station. 
No way am i going to ride coach all day from Savannah @ 4 a.m. to Tampa, arriving after noon, or later, without access to a real meal..


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## Ryan (Aug 30, 2015)

ohle said:


> It's causing more harm than good.


I'm fairly certain that we don't have the data available to make that sort of judgement.


----------



## ohle (Aug 30, 2015)

Ryan said:


> ohle said:
> 
> 
> > It's causing more harm than good.
> ...


This is GOOD?

No "available data?"

You serious?

What about the steep deterioration in the City of New Orleans dining service?

Firing the chef was another boneheaded Amtrak "idea."



> The Cafe Lounge car attendant said he has not yet run out of supplies on a run, but the lines can be long, as I saw around 8:00 a.m. The choice for dinner was very limited: two sandwiches, burgers, hot dogs, chicken tenders and pizza. There were no salads or soups





> On Tuesday for lunch, he was out of a number of items on the menu. People were confused as to where to line up for food orders. There was *almost a fight among passengers* on who would be served next, until the cafe lounge car attendant told them where to line up.




Just who is Amtrak tryint to serve? The stupid bean-counters or the customers?

*You, sir, try riding on a train for nearly 2 days.*

*Am sure you'll be happy with JUNK FOOD for your meals*.

Even the crews hate this garbage. 

Some things are common sense.


----------



## ohle (Aug 30, 2015)

It's clear Amtrak's bozos didn't do their homework & gave the "experiment" little if any serious thought.

They made NO PLANS for alternate food or to improve the lounge car's pathetic offerings.

"Oh, we'll just shove it down their throats. We don't know what riding trains is about.

No one rides trains outside of the NEC, so why care? They will just have to accept it while our 75 VICE PRESIDENTS sit on their thumbs & let the system continue to deteriorate....."



> The conductors said they have heard lots of complaints about the lack of a diner from passengers. An attendant said some coach passengers also complained about the lack of a diner. Loss of revenue from coach passengers must be considered during the evaluation.
> 
> This test trial on the Silver Star is upsetting many passengers, who will share their story with others and may not ride Amtrak again.
> 
> *I suggest that in light of the strong negative response, Amtrak cuts back the study period from seven months to three months, which will give the company fewer unhappy customers.* I also think a letter or email needs to go out to all passengers who rode sleepers on the Star during the trial period explaining to them why it was done, thanking them for their patience, and telling them when full dining service has been restored.


Agree wholeheartedly with the NARP blog.

Just WHAT were the passengers supposed to eat?

JUNK FOOD?

Did they expect COMPLIMENTS?

A train ain't no airline. 

And look how Amtrak treats its workers. The dining car wasn't only for the passengers.

The mass exodus to 98 speaks volumes.

What a piece of dung, Amtrak's "experiment."

It's nothing like that and in no way seeks to "improve" service or boost the train's performance.


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## jebr (Aug 30, 2015)

ohle said:


> *You, sir, try riding on a train for nearly 2 days.*
> 
> *Am sure you'll be happy with JUNK FOOD for your meals*.


26 hours (the longest trip without the Meteor as an alternative...Lakeland, FL to New York, NY) is hardly "nearly two days." If we want to exclude those who have a relatively easy bus connection to the Meteor, the longest trip drops to 21 hours (Miami, FL to Raleigh, NC,) which isn't even a full day.

The crew does have it worse off, though I expect they do get lounge car food in lieu of the normal dining car menu. Convenience store food to be sure, but not the end of the world either.


----------



## MikefromCrete (Aug 30, 2015)

You have to understand that this experiment is designed to fail. If ridership on the Star declines sharply and complaints pile up from passengers, then Amtrak can go back to Mica and the other congressmen and say, "see, we need good food service or we will lose most of all passengers, that silly directive to make food service profitable just won't work." Of course, if Star ridership remains steady, then we are all in trouble.

The best solution is to find out your congressman's voting record on Amtrak. If he/she is a constant opponent of passenger rail, such as Mica in Florida or Jeff Denham in California, then do everything possible to defeat them at the polls. That kind of action will catch everybody's attention.


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## ohle (Aug 30, 2015)

Crummy food.

It's telling how Amtrak's brain trust didn't even consider upgrading the lounge car's JUNK FOOD offerings.

A successful business doesn't kick its customers in the shin.


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## keelhauled (Aug 31, 2015)

ohle said:


> This is GOOD?
> 
> No "available data?"
> 
> ...


I'm not seeing the data here. No one outside of Amtrak likely will until the July monthly report is released in the middle of September.


> *You, sir, try riding on a train for nearly 2 days.*
> 
> *Am sure you'll be happy with JUNK FOOD for your meals*.


Been there done that. I got what I paid for. Knew what I expected and that's what I got. IMO Amtrak's biggest failing here is failing to effectively communicate the service changes to passengers. But there is nothing inherently wrong with the trial itself.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 31, 2015)

SteveSTX said:


> The free breakfast I had at the Hampton Inn in New Orleans the day before my departure was vastly better than the meal on the CONO the next morning.


Ouch!



jebr said:


> 26 hours (the longest trip without the Meteor as an alternative...Lakeland, FL to New York, NY) is hardly "nearly two days."


So the core of your retort revolves around semantics?



MikefromCrete said:


> You have to understand that this experiment is designed to fail.


That's the theory anyway.


----------



## Ryan (Aug 31, 2015)

ohle said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > ohle said:
> ...


I'm absolutely serious. Take your ranting - all you did was switch to the other train. Did it hurt Amtrak's bottom line? Nope. Probably even helped it, since the increased demand on the Meteor is going to drive up prices.

On the other hand, the cost-conscious folks that don't care about a dining car have an option as well, so Amtrak is likely expanding their customer base.

Add in the potential for saving money on maintaining the diners they can park (not insignificant, since they're old and falling apart), and the ammunition to tell Congress "we tried a train without a diner, and got uniformly negative feedback, dining cars are a must on LD trains", and your claim that this is causing "more harm than good falls flat on its face.

So yeah - unless you've got the internal data to see what's actually happening with this, we can't really make any judgements about how much harm or good this is causing.


----------



## VentureForth (Aug 31, 2015)

ohle said:


> Crummy food.
> 
> It's telling how Amtrak's brain trust didn't even consider upgrading the lounge car's JUNK FOOD offerings.
> 
> A successful business doesn't kick its customers in the shin.


Who said anything about Amtrak being a successful business?


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## Ryan (Aug 31, 2015)

I'm more curious what he does at Amtrak, since he claims to have inside information on what management did and did not consider.


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## jis (Aug 31, 2015)

Just looking at the fare levels on typical itineraries and the amount of sold out days through the month of September, there is no clear indication that loads are unusually skewed on one train or the other between the Star and the Meteor. So at least for now, until we see the real numbers in the monthly reports we cannot say for sure what the actual effects are of the change.Since the Star has one less Sleeper than the Meteor, statistically you'd expect it to be more sold out than the Meteor, and that is exactly what is found. The Star seems to be in lower bucket than the Meteor further out, but by the time the departure date comes by they seem to get caught up. There seems to be little discernible difference in Coach fares.

At least for now I am waiting to see the actual numbers.


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## west point (Aug 31, 2015)

Sorry but this test just is not very revealing. With both trains close to selling out how can this test be valid ? Just some very dissatisfied passengers ? Many of the Columbia & Tampa route passengers did not know an alternate choice as they do not know the ins and outs of substituting the Meteor. As well time constraints also matter.


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## keelhauled (Aug 31, 2015)

If both trains continue to sell out it would show that passengers don't place high value in the diner. It seems early to pass judgement.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 31, 2015)

keelhauled said:


> If both trains continue to sell out it would show that passengers don't place high value in the diner. It seems early to pass judgement.


Actually, West Point is right.

If _both_ trains continue to sell out the validity of the passenger numbers as a legitimate criteria for service preference is weakened when extrapolating to routes which are _not_ resource constrained.


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## keelhauled (Aug 31, 2015)

Devil's Advocate said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> > If both trains continue to sell out it would show that passengers don't place high value in the diner. It seems early to pass judgement.
> ...


Sorry I don't quite follow, you mean that there are enough people riding that the demand for seats (or rooms) is higher than the demand for the dining car? If you (hypothetically) added passenger capacity linearly then the Star would stop filling the seats before the Meteor?


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## Lonestar648 (Aug 31, 2015)

If the Florida trains are selling out, and it sounds like they are, how can this be a true test? There may be more potential than capacity. People have to get from point A to B and flying isn't an option for them, so when they are forced to either bring their own food (not an option for most), or eat the limited non-nutritious menu Congress would prefer the public consume or not eat at all, they still have to travel.

Airlines eliminated meals trying to save money since the cost of a meal per passenger was $30 - $50, totally outrageous. But did the fares go down when the meals were eliminated? NO! Passengers complained, did the airlines listen? not at first, but then they brought in expensive snacks for purchase.


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## Ryan (Aug 31, 2015)

While an interesting data point, Amtrak sleeper fares on the Star were considerably reduced when the included meals went away.

"Amtrak: just as bad as the airlines (except when it isn't)"


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## jis (Aug 31, 2015)

The bottom line though is, if on a particular route there is so much demand that you can fill trains at a fare level that makes the service operationally viable with minimal dining service, then why would one bother with fancy dining service? Maybe just improved menu in a better lunge environment is all that is needed. This is philosophy similar to what the airlines used when they went from food service to food for purchase in domestic Y. I don't necessarily like it, but I can see the logic in it.

One interesting thing ts that while the Sleeper fares were reduced because they included food previously, Coach fares were not reduced even though the amenity of optional access to Dining Car was taken away, and therefore I think getting the differences in Coach booking would be an important metric to watch too.

Ideally what should have been done in the experiment is to have kept the Dining Car but made it optional for Sleeper passengers with a fare reduction to base transport and accommodation, and then compare what happened between the Star and the Meteor, and how many people chose to use the Diner anyway on their own dime. But that was not done, and it is not clear to me what this particular experiment actually helps establish other than that a train is viable or not sans Dining Car. Given the demand profile, as mentioned by some, the lack of inventory may confound the results of the experiment in this case.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Aug 31, 2015)

jis said:


> The bottom line though is, if on a particular route there is so much demand that you can fill trains at a fare level that makes the service operationally viable with minimal dining service, then why would one bother with fancy dining service? Maybe just improved menu in a better lunge environment is all that is needed. This is philosophy similar to what the airlines used when they went from food service to food for purchase in domestic Y. I don't necessarily like it, but I can see the logic in it.
> 
> One interesting thing ts that while the Sleeper fates were reduced because they included food previously, Coach fares were not reduced even though the amenity of optional access to Dining Car was taken away, and therefore I think getting the differences in Coach booking would be an important metric to watch too.
> 
> Ideally what should have been done in the experiment is to have kept the Dining Car but made it optional for Sleeper passengers with a fare reduction to base transport and accommodation, and then compare what happened between the Star and the Meteor, and how many people chose to use the Diner anyway on their own dime. But that was not done, and it is not clear to me what this particular experiment actually helps establish other than that a train is viable or not sans Dining Car. Given the demand profile, as mentioned by some, the lack of inventory may confound the results of the experiment in this case.


I don't know if hard core Amtrak fans want to test this theory but maybe try the idea of rooms with or w/o meals on either the CL or LSL. Maybe have meals included in the price of full bedrooms but not in the price of roomettes.

I tried PHL to ORL leaving Thur. Jan. 7, 2016 and returning Mon. Jan. 11, 2016 (dates chosen to avoid holiday period or close dates because some rooms sold out).

From PHL:

Silver Star Roomette: $334 (4 available)

Silver Meteor Roomette: $526

From ORL:

Silver Meteor Roomette: $427 (3 available)

Silver Star Roomette: $303 (4 available)

The Meteor times going back are 1:35pm-9:30am so imagine if meals were included then you would get dinner and breakfast. If I assume the $334 and $427, then you are saying dinner and breakfast are worth $93. That's a lot of money for one trip (and double it for a round trip). If you remove meals from all sleeper service, that $24 Amtrak steak will probably be more like a $30-$40 Amtrak steak though.

I still think $606 is a lot to pay for a round trip to ORL for a single person (especially since the coach is $200-$300 depending on which ticket type you get) but it's still better than $854.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 31, 2015)

Excellent idea about having the Roomettes be like the old Slumber Coach, sans Meals, and have the Bedrooms include the Meals in the Dinner!

I rode the Southern Crescent many times in Slumber Coach between WAS and ATL and enjoyed Breakfast in the Diner on my dime! (and a mighty fine one I assure you!)

Disclaimer: Regular Sleeper pax All Paid for their meals in the Diner, as did Amtrak, up until what, the early 90s???

It was a nice savings for a poor government hand just starting out !

This would make an excellent test so Amtrak could get some meaningful data for the mica-managers on the Hill!


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## yarrow (Aug 31, 2015)

Ryan said:


> ohle said:
> 
> 
> > It's causing more harm than good.
> ...


ryan, the great sherlock holmes said that he couldn't theorize without data. he also said that occasionally circumstantial evidence is very convincing. as when one finds a trout in the milk. i find the circumstantial evidence, as regards amtrak, quite convincing


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## Train2104 (Aug 31, 2015)

In a few days we shall get the July MPR. That should put this "data" debate to an end.

Personally, I expect a significant increase in sleeper passengers, a sharp drop in sleeper revenue (even more than the fare cut, due to short trips); and no significant difference in coach revenue on the Star. On the Meteor I expect a significant increase in sleeper revenue (longer trips), with ridership slightly up or holding steady.

As a pre-comparison point - were there any major trackwork programs or service disruptions in July 2014 that need to be controlled for?


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## afigg (Sep 1, 2015)

Train2104 said:


> In a few days we shall get the July MPR. That should put this "data" debate to an end.
> 
> Personally, I expect a significant increase in sleeper passengers, a sharp drop in sleeper revenue (even more than the fare cut, due to short trips); and no significant difference in coach revenue on the Star. On the Meteor I expect a significant increase in sleeper revenue (longer trips), with ridership slightly up or holding steady.
> 
> As a pre-comparison point - were there any major trackwork programs or service disruptions in July 2014 that need to be controlled for?


I expect the July MPR will drop soon, but I think people will have to wait until the August and September numbers are available to provide enough time after the start of the "experiment" to say much about how it is effecting ridership and revenue, As for service disruptions in July, thanks to the Amtrak Status Maps database tool, it is easy to check if there were any cancelled or disrupted trips or horribly late runs for the Star and Meteor.
The Star sleeper revenue may not drop that much due to the additional roomettes they could sell with no diner crew.


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