# Brightline Orlando extension



## McIntyre2K7

There's a good article in Trains Magazine regarding to how Virgin Trains USA is full steam ahead with construction of it's high speed line from West Palm Beach to Orlando. It looks they the are planning an extension to the Port of Miami as well so people can connect to Virgin's cruse ships once flying into Orlando. 




https://www.gobrightline.com/sites/default/files/2020-08/Trains%20Magazine%202020.pdf


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## rickycourtney

I thought the article was a fascinating read. Really hope that Brightline is a model for other passenger rail corridors in the years to come.


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## Willbridge

Whenever I hear about Brightline I remember that there was a deep thinker at Oregon DOT when I worked there who predicted that there would only be so much capacity in the then expanding highway system and that private operators might be able to run rail service at a profit eventually in some corridors. Of course, in the meantime much of the rail infrastructure and real estate related to the potential service was sold off or degraded, so the Brightline idea will only work in the right scenario.


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## Anderson

I suspect that the Port of Miami angle is likely to end up "on the shelf" for a few years.


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## railiner

Anderson said:


> I suspect that the Port of Miami angle is likely to end up "on the shelf" for a few years.


At least until the cruise business comes back, fully....


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## cocojacoby

Anderson said:


> I suspect that the Port of Miami angle is likely to end up "on the shelf" for a few years.


Doesn't make much sense anyway. You still have to transfer via a bus or van from the train to your cruise ship since the terminals are far apart and you will have a lot of luggage. Just as simple (albeit maybe 5 minutes longer ride) from Miami Central. Also this greatly simplifies the scheduling since you won't have some trains going to different terminals..


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## Palmetto

FEC has a spur that it uses to get to the port for its freight. So theoretically, passsenger trains could go there, too. The problem is that the spur leaves the main line just north of Miami Central, and trains going to the port would miss it.


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## cirdan

Palmetto said:


> FEC has a spur that it uses to get to the port for its freight. So theoretically, passsenger trains could go there, too. The problem is that the spur leaves the main line just north of Miami Central, and trains going to the port would miss it.



Doesn't it actually pass under one corner of the Miami Central complex, or at least the approach viaduct. So it would hypothetically be possible to put in a platform there and link that to the rest of the station by some form of covered walkway or airport style travellator - or if you don't mind going low-tech, just do a backup move.

Another problem at the port of Miami is that the FEC track presently ends in a freight yard, which is used to transfer (mostly) container boxes between ships and trains. That's not really the sort of environment that is attractive (or necessarily even safe) for cruise passengers to be wandering around in. So quite a lot of money would have to be spent to transform it - or build an entirely separate station on the side.


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## Palmetto

The port spur just brushes the elevated northeast corner of the station complex at street level. A street level platform, therefore, would have to be built if someone wanted to get off a port-bound train at MiamiCentral. At the port, I think the railroad and the stations would be need to be elevated, with a new section of track built off the FEC spur. I don't know if it's worth it.


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## jis

Palmetto said:


> The port spur just brushes the elevated northeast corner of the station complex at street level. A street level platform, therefore, would have to be built if someone wanted to get off a port-bound train at MiamiCentral. At the port, I think the railroad and the stations would be need to be elevated, with a new section of track built off the FEC spur. I don't know if it's worth it.


Just does not seem to be worth it. The port service will at best be a few trains a day, and they are likely to be dedicated to specific set of ships.


cirdan said:


> Doesn't it actually pass under one corner of the Miami Central complex, or at least the approach viaduct. So it would hypothetically be possible to put in a platform there and link that to the rest of the station by some form of covered walkway or airport style travellator - or if you don't mind going low-tech, just do a backup move.


This is a prime example of a railroad fan fantasy which has no basis in any business justification whatsoever. I have had a brief conversation with Patrick Goddard about this and, well all I can say is keep on dreamin'  The port thing is intended to be a low investment side project which brings in some extra revenue, and building elaborate structures for it is inconsistent with the strategy.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

McIntyre2K7 said:


> It looks they the are planning an extension to the Port of Miami as well so people can connect to Virgin's cruse ships once flying into Orlando.



Why fly into Orlando and not into Miami?

Would Virgin cruise ships operate Virgin trains at a loss, just as a feed into its ships?


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## McIntyre2K7

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Why fly into Orlando and not into Miami?
> 
> Would Virgin cruise ships operate Virgin trains at a loss, just as a feed into its ships?



Orlando International had just over 50 million passengers last year vs Miami's 45 million. It's cheaper for the airlines to fly into Orlando as well so I could see Virgin selling a package where it would be cheaper to fly into Orlando and take the train.

For example a 5 night cruise out of Miami would be $950/person (if they select cruise only). However if they select the option where you fly into Orlando and take the train it would be $800/person.

I think the virgin partnership is finished for now so (could be wrong here).


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## Qapla

Not to mention that, even though those of us who live in Florida would simply head to Miami, many who come to Florida are doing a "once in a lifetime" excursion and they try to include as much as they can while here. I'm sure there would be enough people who would fly into Orlando to visit Disney first and then head to Miami to take a cruise or just to visit the beach to make having the train between Orlando and Miami a viable option.

For someone taking a two week vacation in Florida, having a stress-free connection between Orlando and Miami would be an additional attraction to their decision to come to Florida for such a vacation.


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## joelkfla

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Would Virgin cruise ships operate Virgin trains at a loss, just as a feed into its ships?





McIntyre2K7 said:


> I think the virgin partnership is finished for now so (could be wrong here).


Yes, the Virgin Trains USA brand no longer exists. It's back to Brightline.


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## jis

Virgin Trains USA lost its virginity in a manner of speaking. It is back to Brightline. Apparently the dissolution of the relationship was being discussed even before the pandemic struck with full force. But things accelerated after the bankruptcy of major Virgin holdings reduced the value of the brand considerably., making the original agreement financially a liability for Brightline. So FECI terminated the deal.


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## AM_ROAD

jis said:


> Virgin Trains USA lost its virginity in a manner of speaking. It is back to Brightline. Apparently the dissolution of the relationship was being discussed even before the pandemic struck with full force. But things accelerated after the bankruptcy of major Virgin holdings reduced the value of the brand considerably., making the original agreement financially a liability for Brightline. So FECI terminated the deal.



I read in an article recently that Palm Bay was listed as a potential station stop. Are they seriously looking at that or is it just a thought?


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## jis

AM_ROAD said:


> I read in an article recently that Palm Bay was listed as a potential station stop. Are they seriously looking at that or is it just a thought?


When Brevard County did a station location study there was one location in Palm Bay in the candidates list. The location that won out for the first station in Brevard County is Cocoa-Rockledge where FECI has a large chunk of property adjacent to the tracks and right on Route 1 adjacent to the local business district. It is just south of where the Orlando extension splits off from the classiv FECR route.So that is where the first station in Brevard County will be built.


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## railiner

I wonder if "insider trading" law is just for the stock market, or can it apply to real estate also? In other words, is it okay for railroad to buy up certain property, before disclosing that it intends to locate a station there?

And I don't mean just for the station...but speculation on nearby land values for development....


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## jis

railiner said:


> I wonder if "insider trading" law is just for the stock market, or can it apply to real estate also? In other words, is it okay for railroad to buy up certain property, before disclosing that it intends to locate a station there?
> 
> And I don't mean just for the station...but speculation on nearby land values for development....


Would that be any different from real estate developer buying up a greenfield property and then developing a Mall as an anchor and then build residential property around it and selling them? This happens all the time. So what is so different about a railroad?


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## joelkfla

railiner said:


> I wonder if "insider trading" law is just for the stock market, or can it apply to real estate also? In other words, is it okay for railroad to buy up certain property, before disclosing that it intends to locate a station there?
> 
> And I don't mean just for the station...but speculation on nearby land values for development....


I believe insider trading refers to an individual with advance knowledge of a corporation's plans who uses that knowledge to make an unfair personal gain.

IMO, a corporation acting to profit based on its own plans is not the same. That's just good advanced planning.


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## railiner

joelkfla said:


> I believe insider trading refers to an individual with advance knowledge of a corporation's plans who uses that knowledge to make an unfair personal gain.
> 
> IMO, a corporation acting to profit based on its own plans is not the same. That's just good advanced planning.


So it's okay for the railroad, but not for one of its officer's buying his own on spec, right?


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## jis

railiner said:


> So it's okay for the railroad, but not for one of its officer's buying his own on spec, right?


From Wikipedia: "*Insider trading* is the trading of a public company's stock or other securities (such as bonds or stock options) based on material, nonpublic information about the company. "

It has nothing to do with what happens outside the Securities markets. Its purpose is to ensure fairness in trading in the Securities markets. It is primarily enforced by the SEC in the US.

For more details see Insider trading - Wikipedia

Incidentally this subject is also wildly off topic of this thread.


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## Brian_tampa

railiner said:


> So it's okay for the railroad, but not for one of its officer's buying his own on spec, right?


As an officer of a corporation or even a real estate agent, if they use privileged information to benefit their own personal situation, in most cases they would be violating company or professional rules and regulations. Most officers (and regular employees too!) of companies have to sign statements that they agree not to share or benefit from "insider knowledge" of company actions. And most every professional licensed occupation has ethics and moral standards that will be upheld by national licensing organizations. These are enforced by state laws and regulations that can and will result in criminal charges of the individual!

As far as Brightline goes, it is the entity that is pursuing station sites. It has a duty to its owners or shareholders to maximize profit as part of its business operations and prevent competitors from gaining knowledge of its business plans. So no, Brightline as a corporation has no obligation to reveal its trade secrets or future plans to the public.


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## Palmland

More good news from Brightline on today’s ‘Trains’ Newswire:

Brightline to begin work on Tampa route in 2022; reaching Disney World a priority
Work on Brightline’s planned Orlando-Tampa line line will not begin until 2022, with a goal of operation beginning in 2025. The Tampa Bay Business Journal reports Michael Cegelis, Brightline’s executive vice president of rail infrastructure, laid out that timeline during a recent meeting in which he also said Brightline would study potential shared operations on some of the route with Orlando commuter railroad SunRail. If Brightline and SunRail reach agreement, Brightline would use existing SunRail tracks on part of its route to reach Disney World, while building right-of-way along Interstate 4 to reach Tampa. SunRail would gain the ability to reach Orlando International Airport via Brightline’s tracks [see “Digest: Long Island Rail Road expansion project …,” Trains News Wire, Oct. 9, 2020]. Reaching Disney World has become a higher priority than the Tampa route, playing a part in the current timeline.


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## joelkfla

Palmland said:


> More good news from Brightline on today’s ‘Trains’ Newswire:
> 
> Brightline to begin work on Tampa route in 2022; reaching Disney World a priority
> Work on Brightline’s planned Orlando-Tampa line line will not begin until 2022, with a goal of operation beginning in 2025. The Tampa Bay Business Journal reports Michael Cegelis, Brightline’s executive vice president of rail infrastructure, laid out that timeline during a recent meeting in which he also said Brightline would study potential shared operations on some of the route with Orlando commuter railroad SunRail. If Brightline and SunRail reach agreement, Brightline would use existing SunRail tracks on part of its route to reach Disney World, while building right-of-way along Interstate 4 to reach Tampa. SunRail would gain the ability to reach Orlando International Airport via Brightline’s tracks [see “Digest: Long Island Rail Road expansion project …,” Trains News Wire, Oct. 9, 2020]. Reaching Disney World has become a higher priority than the Tampa route, playing a part in the current timeline.


This has me puzzled, as I can't see how SunRail ROW helps in getting from the airport to Disney. SunRail runs predominantly north-south until Kissimmee, where it turns WSW to Poinciana. The Poinciana terminus is the closest it comes to Disney, and it's 6.5 miles SSE of the property's southern edge.


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## TRoberts

joelkfla said:


> This has me puzzled, as I can't see how SunRail ROW helps in getting from the airport to Disney. SunRail runs predominantly north-south until Kissimmee, where it turns WSW to Poinciana. The Poinciana terminus is the closest it comes to Disney, and it's 6.5 miles SSE of the property's southern edge.



Looking at the map, I think that's the route they are planning to take. After departing Poinciana they can turn North near Reedy Creek and they have a straight shot to the property. It looks like about 3 miles from the right of way to where World Drive ends. Doesn't look like much development. They could parallel world drive onto the property. 

I wonder if there is a plan to serve the town of Celebration.


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## Qapla

They may be thinking of creating a switch just past Intercession City at the curve that turns south - would take them right over to World Drive and the I-4 ROW - not much in the way.


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## rickycourtney

So according to earlier planning documents... SunRail is planning to upgrade the Orlando Utilities Commission Stanton Spur to connect the existing ROW north of the Meadow Woods station... to the Orlando Airport.

So Brightline would use that new track, the existing SunRail ROW thru Meadow Woods
station and depart the SunRail ROW at Highway 417. From there, following 417 to Disney World.

There’s not much sharing of SunRail ROW, but getting FDOT to pay for that section of track could be a good deal.


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## joelkfla

rickycourtney said:


> So according to earlier planning documents... SunRail is planning to upgrade the Orlando Utilities Commission Stanton Spur to connect the existing ROW north of the Meadow Woods station... to the Orlando Airport.
> 
> So Brightline would use that new track, the existing SunRail ROW thru Meadow Woods
> station and depart the SunRail ROW at Highway 417. From there, following 417 to Disney World.
> 
> There’s not much sharing of SunRail ROW, but getting FDOT to pay for that section of track could be a good deal.


OK, I see that. It's only 1.6 mi. of SunRail track, but it would avoid them having to find new ROW to get from the spur to 417. I'd forgotten that they were negotiating for 417 median as well as I-4 median.


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## rickycourtney

joelkfla said:


> OK, I see that. It's only 1.6 mi. of SunRail track, but it would avoid them having to find new ROW to get from the spur to 417. I'd forgotten that they were negotiating for 417 median as well as I-4 median.


Right. I feel like there’s more to be negotiated:

There’s 1.6 miles of SunRail track that Brightline wants to use (wye to 417).
There’s 2.0 miles of Brightline track that SunRail wants to use (Brightline shop to MCO).
That leaves 3.5 miles of Orlando Utilities Commission track that needs to be upgraded (wye to Brightline shop)
Not sure how the funding will work... but going 50/50 would be a cost savings for both SunRail and Brightline. The other benefit of the partnership is that SunRail already has already completed a study of that 3.5 mile section.


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## west point

It will be too expensive but provision in the future for the east track at the wye to flyover both legs of the wye. With the present proposals it will be desireable for there to be a crossover from the west track to the east track just north of the north leg of the wye going south. As well south of the south leg a crossover from the east track to the west track.going south.
Since I did not pay attention to the present lay out there someone else will have need to enlighten us as to how much of this is already in place ?
Again if eventually the east track flys over the 2 legs of the wye there will not be a much more fluid operation. That intersection will have in an hour of time ======= 6 Sun rail main line, 4 sunrail to airport, Brightline to / from Disney 4 - 8., Amtrak 1 sometimes 2. There might also be some local freight moves during the day to rearrange the yard ? So maybe 15 - 20 movements during some hours. The is a receipt for some delays.

Have not considered that a full CP east of the wye if the track from the wye to airport is 2 main tracks.


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## jis

Brightline was planning to run on the Sunrail ROW using separate parallel tracks through Meadow Woods station with an interchange station there anyway. All that they are discussing now are:

1. Crossover tracks north of Meadow Woods allowing southbound Sunrail train to potentially access WDW.

2. Potentially using the Power House siding ROW for OIA to Meadow Woods access.

3. Building out the north east quadrant of the Wye connecting southbound Sunrail to the OIA - Meadow Woods segment allowing Sunrail from downtown to access OIA station, together with building a platform with two tracks at OIA for Sunrail low level door trains at OIA. There is space set aside for such an eventual development at the OIA station that has been built.

This will save both some money which they can then spend on doing the interchange connections better.

It does not substantially change what Brightline planned to do south of Meadow Woods to get to WDW, except that the WDW station will need an additional low level platform for SunRail trains to serve that station.


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## rickycourtney

So I guess my question is... if SunRail and Brightline are going to share a stop at MCO, should both still serve Meadow Woods station? Also, are the SunRail tracks so busy that Brightline really needs to build parallel tracks?


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## jis

rickycourtney said:


> So I guess my question is... if SunRail and Brightline are going to share a stop at MCO, should both still serve Meadow Woods station? Also, are the SunRail tracks so busy that Brightline really needs to build parallel tracks?


Brightline apparently wants to keep their Tampa trains as separate as possible from the local Orlando Airport - Disney service, and those would probably by pass Meadow Brook if they can interchange with Sun Rail at WDW. I would surmise that Brightline would have a grade separate pair of tracks for their Tampa Service, with a connecting track somewhere around Meadow Woods.

Something like Ashford International is in Southeast England which is shared between Chunnel High Speed service, some of which stop there, but most don;t, and the high speed local service from London to Kent Coast using the Hitachi Javelin sets. It is more of a quality of service rather than track capacity issue. Chunnel HS service is only 3TPH or so in each direction that bypasses Ashford International, but it does so at 300kph, not something one would do by a platform. There is a similar arrangement at Stratford International too in the outskirts of London.


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## TRoberts

That makes sense, I'm guessing the Orlando Airport to Disney World trains will be busy enough to justify a dedicated shuttle service.


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## jis

TRoberts said:


> That makes sense, I'm guessing the Orlando Airport to Disney World trains will be busy enough to justify a dedicated shuttle service.


Yes. That segment would certainly see more frequent service.

In the rail advocacy community there is now a mention of cobbling together a SunRail East-West Corridor anchored on the WDW - OIA segment by extending SunRail beyond OIA all the way to International Way on SR528 with a few stops on the way - specifically talked about are Heintzelman Blvd and Narcoosee Rd. At present that is mostly in the shall we say "day-dreaming" stage, but it does make sense at some level given some of the locus of development.


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## Palmland

railiner said:


> It sure has impacted me...I haven't been to my Queens apartment since January 4th.





jis said:


> Brightline was planning to run on the Sunrail ROW using separate parallel tracks through Meadow Woods station with an interchange station there anyway. All that they are discussing now are:
> 
> 1. Crossover tracks north of Meadow Woods allowing southbound Sunrail train to potentially access WDW.
> 
> 2. Potentially using the Power House siding ROW for OIA to Meadow Woods access.
> 
> 3. Building out the north east quadrant of the Wye connecting southbound Sunrail to the OIA - Meadow Woods segment allowing Sunrail from downtown to access OIA station, together with building a platform with two tracks at OIA for Sunrail low level door trains at OIA. There is space set aside for such an eventual development at the OIA station that has been built.
> 
> This will save both some money which they can then spend on doing the interchange connections better.
> 
> It does not substantially change what Brightline planned to do south of Meadow Woods to get to WDW, except that the WDW station will need an additional low level platform for SunRail trains to serve that station.


Interesting. Does this mean that potentially Amtrak could stop at Meadow Woods for transfer to Brightline for Tampa/south FL or to Sunrail for WDW?


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## jis

Palmland said:


> Interesting. Does this mean that potentially Amtrak could stop at Meadow Woods for transfer to Brightline for Tampa/south FL or to Sunrail for WDW?


That potential does exist.

Though I suspect such a transfer may be viewed as a negative for Amtrak by Amtrak aficionados, since it would appear to be a transfer to a competing service, it does open up all of the east coast of Florida south of Cocoa to Amtrak travelers as stops get added on Broghtline between Cocoa and West Palm Beach. Eventually when Brightline extends service from Cocoa to JAX, there will also be potential for transfer at JAX serving the same purpose, assuming that Amtrak and Brightline actually serve the same terminal at JAX.


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## rickycourtney

I know that Amtrak aficionados won't love hearing this... but when Brightline reaches Tampa, I think it will be necessary to have a discussion about the future service pattern for the Silver Service trains. 

Why continue to have the Silver Star make 1 hr, 20 min detour to Tampa when Brightline will make several trips per day between the cities? Why not just offer thru ticketing? Also, thru ticketing to Disney World would be a much better experience than today's experience: hail a cab or take a 90-minute, two transit bus ride.

Also, Brightline's service between Orlando and Miami will be vastly superior to Amtrak's... making the trip 3 hours faster and dropping passengers at a station in Downtown Miami instead of Amtrak's station that's in the middle of a rail yard and is a half-mile walk to the Metrorail station. 

But hey, Amtrak has -- umm -- nostalgia?


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## joelkfla

rickycourtney said:


> Also, thru ticketing to Disney World would be a much better experience than today's experience: hail a cab or take a 90-minute, two transit bus ride.


Just FYI, Kissimmee is the closest station to WDW, and it's a 58 minute ride on one bus.

Granted, the 18 mi. from Orlando to Kissimmee does take an additional 37 minutes on the train when traveling south, including the Orlando smoking stop. Consider it more time to enjoy(?) lunch.


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## TRoberts

joelkfla said:


> Just FYI, Kissimmee is the closest station to WDW, and it's a 58 minute ride on one bus.
> 
> Granted, the 18 mi. from Orlando to Kissimmee does take an additional 37 minutes on the train when traveling south, including the Orlando smoking stop. Consider it more time to enjoy(?) lunch.



I've used both Orlando and Kissimmee when traveling to and from Disney World. Both are about the same Uber price.

The Lynx bus from Kissimmee is from the Transportation and Ticket Center Only. From Orlando, you can get on and off by Disney Springs and walk to any Disney Springs hotel or take a Disney bus to your resort although I'm guessing that will no longer be an option if/when Disney Springs adds security checkpoints and prohibits luggage.


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## rickycourtney

Didn't consider Kissimmee... but I would argue that both are worse passenger experiences than a transfer to Brightline for a quick trip to the Disney World station, which will almost certainly have a Disney Transportation hub.


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## joelkfla

TRoberts said:


> I've used both Orlando and Kissimmee when traveling to and from Disney World. Both are about the same Uber price.
> 
> The Lynx bus from Kissimmee is from the Transportation and Ticket Center Only. From Orlando, you can get on and off by Disney Springs and walk to any Disney Springs hotel or take a Disney bus to your resort although I'm guessing that will no longer be an option if/when Disney Springs adds security checkpoints and prohibits luggage.


True. Officially, no luggage is allowed on any form of Disney Transport, so the final mile should be rideshare or taxi, anyway, unless you have just a backpack or carry-on. The Lynx stop is very close to taxi & rideshare at both locations.


rickycourtney said:


> Didn't consider Kissimmee... but I would argue that both are worse passenger experiences than a transfer to Brightline for a quick trip to the Disney World station, which will almost certainly have a Disney Transportation hub.


No argument; just clarifying the facts.


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## Devil's Advocate

rickycourtney said:


> Why continue to have the Silver Star make 1 hr, 20 min detour to Tampa when Brightline will make several trips per day between the cities? Why not just offer thru ticketing? Also, thru ticketing to Disney World would be a much better experience than today's experience: hail a cab or take a 90-minute, two transit bus ride.


Amtrak generally has plenty of room for luggage. Connecting to Brightline is only desirable if there's an easy way to bring your long haul luggage without dragging it up and down stairs or blocking aisles. I've only visited Disney World a couple times (Disneyland kid) but it seemed like everyone was packing the kitchen sink in both directions.


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## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> Amtrak generally has plenty of room for luggage. Connecting to Brightline is only desirable if there's an easy way to bring your long haul luggage without dragging it up and down stairs or blocking aisles. I've only visited Disney World a couple times (Disneyland kid) but it seemed like everyone was packing the kitchen sink in both directions.


Purely as a hypothetical possibility Brightline does have checked baggage, so potentially there could be interline checked baggage. But I am sure, this being the country that it is, people will discover/invent a hundred reasons why that could never happen.


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## TRoberts

joelkfla said:


> True. Officially, no luggage is allowed on any form of Disney Transport, so the final mile should be rideshare or taxi, anyway, unless you have just a backpack or carry-on. The Lynx stop is very close to taxi & rideshare at both locations.



Oh, I didn't realize that. I used to transfer from Lynx to Disney Transportation regularly at TTC or Disney Springs. As recently as last January I used Disney Springs. Hopefully, the new Brightline Station will have regular transportation to the various resorts so you don't need to use UBER / Taxi.


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## rickycourtney

So as long as we are playing hypotheticals here... I'll point out that Disney World has offered checked baggage intercept at MCO as part of it's "Magical Express" bus service to the Disney owned hotels in the park. (I believe the baggage service is currently on hold due to the pandemic.)

Before you depart you put a special yellow bag tag on your luggage, then you check the bag at your origin airport. When flights arrive at MCO with these yellow tags, they are diverted to Disney World. Once bags at arrive at hotels, the bell desk delivers them directly into the room.

So for most guests, they arrive at MCO and without stopping at baggage claim, they hop on a bus that takes them to their hotel, they check-in at the hotel, then head out to have fun at the resort, and when they arrive at their rooms that night, the bags are waiting. I used the service during my visit and it was pretty "Magical" from a user experience perspective.

There's no reason why Brightline couldn't offer a similar checked baggage intercept system in the future, especially since, presumably, many families will travel between MCO and Disney World on Brightline. I'm sure the only reason why it's not currently offered from the Amtrak station is there's not enough passengers to justify the expense.


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## jiml

We used Orlando via Amtrak for years based on the lack of car rental availability at Kissimmee. Perhaps that has improved in recent years.


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## me_little_me

jis said:


> That potential does exist.
> 
> Though I suspect such a transfer may be viewed as a negative for Amtrak by Amtrak aficionados, since it would appear to be a transfer to a competing service, it does open up all of the east coast of Florida south of Cocoa to Amtrak travelers as stops get added on Broghtline between Cocoa and West Palm Beach. Eventually when Brightline extends service from Cocoa to JAX, there will also be potential for transfer at JAX serving the same purpose, assuming that Amtrak and Brightline actually serve the same terminal at JAX.


That would be good for both but so much better for customers (given, of course, that Amtrak doesn't arrive after the last Brightline train). Both Amtrak and Brightline would likely gain customers and Amtrak could eliminate two diverging trains and instead have two trains a day that follow the same path in Florida. Of course, Brightline and Amtrak would need to interline baggage.
Look how much customers would benefit - they could get an edible meal included if they go first class on Brightline or have the option to buy one, if in coach. 
Of course, they could also wonder why Amtrak couldn't provide real service!


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## coventry801

If brightline track is good and fast, Amtrak could very well use the same track the way it does with other freight lines.


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## jis

coventry801 said:


> If brightline track is good and fast, Amtrak could very well use the same track the way it does with other freight lines.


Potentially possible, but I would be more than extremely surprised if that ever comes to pass.The egos that are involved at least today, would make that a steep hill to climb. And it would cause the inland route from Orlando to West Palm Beach to lose all service.


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> Purely as a hypothetical possibility Brightline does have checked baggage, so potentially there could be interline checked baggage. But I am sure, this being the country that it is, people will discover/invent a hundred reasons why that could never happen.


Checked baggage interlining would be nice but even self-transfer could work if the setup is short, simple, and comes with enough space to put everything out of the way on the connecting train. I enjoy using passenger rail as much as I can manage but I hate having to drag luggage up or down steps through mouse maze corridors to a metro service with little or no storage. Having to choose between clogging aisles or blocking seats is a waste of rare and valuable jerk points. Unlike the Northeast I'd imagine that Florida has plenty of room to make this workable if planned correctly.


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## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> Checked baggage interlining would be nice but even self-transfer could work if the setup is short, simple, and comes with enough space to put everything out of the way on the connecting train. I enjoy using passenger rail as much as I can manage but I hate having to drag luggage up or down steps through mouse maze corridors to a metro service with little or no storage. Having to choose between clogging aisles or blocking seats is a waste of rare and valuable jerk points. Unlike the Northeast I'd imagine that Florida has plenty of room to make this workable if planned correctly.


True that. It is unlikely that a Brightlline or SunRail or TriRail designed new station would be anytiing like some of the legacy Rabbit's warrens that some of the multi-rebuilt older stations are. They will come equipped with elevators and escalators and full ADA compliance and all that, and for Brightline stations, they will apparently come with open space walk through security barriers too, as found in the current Brightline stations.

As for Metro Service, that is a different kettle of fish, and who knows what Florida will have in that area?


----------



## joelkfla

coventry801 said:


> If brightline track is good and fast, Amtrak could very well use the same track the way it does with other freight lines.


New Brightline track will be superior to the freight tracks Amtrak is running on now. It is designed to support speeds of at least 125 mph.

Upgraded existing FEC track supports at least 79 mph, higher between Cocoa & WPB.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> New Brightline track will be superior to the freight tracks Amtrak is running on now. It is designed to support speeds of at least 125 mph.
> 
> Upgraded existing FEC track supports at least 79 mph, higher between Cocoa & WPB.


110mph between Cocoa and WPB.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Potentially possible, but I would be more than extremely surprised if that ever comes to pass.The egos that are involved at least today, would make that a steep hill to climb. And it would cause the inland route from Orlando to West Palm Beach to lose all service.


The main obstacle to Amtrak running on other passenger operators' lines is that the other operators don't want to accept a train which has been delayed several hours by freight traffic elsewhere. We've seen this in the Chicagoland and NY areas quite clearly, and I would expect the same in Florida. TRE in Texas and Metrolink in LA were more cooperative.

As for service after Brightline gets to Tampa... yeah, it will make zero sense for Amtrak to go to Tampa then. That's still years from now, however, so we'll see about it when it happens. If Lakeland does not have a Brightline station, however (it is unclear whether it will) then Amtrak will probably continue making the "dogleg" because Lakeland won't want to lose service.

Amtrak is so habit-bound that it will probably continue servicing trains in Hialeah (which will have to be moved eventually due to sea-level rise, but Amtrak, y'know) so it'll keep going to Miami. If we ever get a competent Amtrak leadership it'll go to Miami Airport.

Hopefully Amtrak will have the sense to stop at the Brightline transfer station, which looks like it will be Meadow Woods.


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## Mailliw

Assuming Brightline and Amtrak agree to interline how do passengers & their luggage get from Amtrak's Miami station to Brighline Miami Central?


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## TRoberts

coventry801 said:


> If brightline track is good and fast, Amtrak could very well use the same track the way it does with other freight lines.



I don't think Brightline has to offer Amtrak a slot though correct? Brightline could just say no since they are fully private?


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## me_little_me

coventry801 said:


> If brightline track is good and fast, Amtrak could very well use the same track the way it does with other freight lines.


You mean they'll sit on the sidings while the Brightline trains go by just like they sit on the sidings for the freight trains? Or do you mean Brightline will go slow so as to make the Amtrak train behind it go 20mph? Or will they cut back on their maintenance like the freight lines so track conditions require slow speeds for Amtrak?


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## Devil's Advocate

TRoberts said:


> I don't think Brightline has to offer Amtrak a slot though correct? Brightline could just say no since they are fully private?


It's not about being public or private so much as not being a party to the contractual obligations that spawned Amtrak.


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## MARC Rider

TRoberts said:


> I don't think Brightline has to offer Amtrak a slot though correct? Brightline could just say no since they are fully private?


I think I read here that because Florida East Coast RR ended passenger service in the early 1960s and weren't involved in the establishment of Amtrak, they have no obligation to offer slots for Amtrak trains. However, I know Amtrak has talked with them in the past about running trains up to Jacksonville on their line and have even run test trains. Brightline is a slightly different company from FECRR, so I don't know how that plays also.

Call me cynical, but I think that after Brightline makes all the $$$$ from the real estate development around the stations, they'll find that actually running a passenger railroad isn't all that profitable, at least not to the expectations of the capitalist overlords. At that point, we can expect that the Brightline rail service will be shunted over to some sort of public sector operator, maybe even Amtrak! 

In any event, it might make sense to make provision to connect Brightline to the national passenger rail system, as much of the ridership on the Silvers comes from points north of Jacksonville and they may want to travel to places served by Brightline and not served by the Silvers. Not only that, if Brightline is really serious about providing Florida corridor rail service (MIA-ORL-TPA, and maybe even MIA-JAX, maybe Amtrak should not bother with trying to start corridor service in Florida and use their funds for other corridors. But that doesn't mean that the Silvers should be cut back. As I wrote two sentences earlier, most of the Silver Service customers are coming from points north of Jacksonville, and forcing everybody to change trains in Jacksonville is sort of silly and would definitely discourage passengers from riding trains to Florida, which a lot of people seem to like doing.


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## jis

If Amtrak expects Florida government to fund corridor service in Florida, that we know is not going to happen in the near to mid term future. Any rail funding from Florida state is likely to be targeted towards TriRail and SunRail, and if something else gets put together around JAX and/or Tampa. So that IMHO is not something we need to worry about. All that we need to worry about is whether Silver Service gets modified and if so, in which way..

Amtrak isnn't using much of "its funds" to start any corridor service anyway. They are shopping around to get the funding from state(s) involved in the corridor before doing anything else.. So there really is no fund to use elsewhere for anythng.


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## chrsjrcj

From my perspective, I think as long as Wes Edens (Fortress) has some involvement with Brightline they'll focus on rail. Based off interviews he seems to be pretty dedicated to making the passenger rail part work. Of course, people eventually come and go and who knows what will happen once he is no longer involved.


----------



## west point

Probably an interline baggage agreement would put Brightline under US STB. Brightline probably wants nothing to do with US regulation of their services. US FRA is probably enough of a problem for Brightline. Seem to recall that was an argument about Texas Central RR.

There will many grade crossing incidents that Brightline has and will have. Often the tracks ahead are blocked by debri.The locos at each end of a train increases the likely hood that the train can be pulled back to a safe siding or cross over to the other track. As well grade crossing incidents sometimes damage a trailing engine.


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## jis

west point said:


> Probably an interline baggage agreement would put Brightline under US STB. Brightline probably wants nothing to do with US regulation of their services. US FRA is probably enough of a problem for Brightline. Seem to recall that was an argument about Texas Central RR.


As far as I know Brightline so far has had way less problem with the FRA than Amtrak has had in trying to get a NEPA EIS approved by FRA and get a ROD. So I don't see why anyone would think that they'd have problem with the FRA.

Brightline has indeed avoided falling under STB by getting an explicit exemption based on not operating with any interstate entity. That was mainly to expedite the approvals process by reducing the number of approving agencies involved. That will have to change if it has to do through ticketing with interstate entities. This is something they would have to do sooner or later anyway as the scope of their business grows. And of course Brightline West has to do it from the getgo since they are an interstate operator.

Texas Central did not request or receive an STB exemption. They do fall under STB.


----------



## Anderson

My suspicion is that Brightline will eventually end up getting a _de facto_ subsidy for these trains, but it's going to be shunted via a contract for the Tri-Rail Coastal Link project (which will probably make it palatable for everyone involved).

I _do _suspect there will eventually be Amtrak on the FEC tracks...frankly, in the scheme of things I suspect that Amtrak would be better off sacking everyone but the yard staff at Hialeah and the train crews (so ditching the various stations and station personnel) and just paying Brightline to deal with South Florida (several of Amtrak's stations being in...less-than-great condition). MIA can apparently accommodate 16-car sets (the other stations can only fit a 10-car train, but with decent load management, door/car placement, and train configuration work you can fit a somewhat longer train into place without needing a double spot).

Even _that_ might be negotiable if Amtrak starts moving in the direction of "Brightliner" cars...at that point I could _easily_ see Amtrak looking to just consolidate everything in Florida to have trains terminate at Brightline's stations in TPA and MIA, outsource the yard work, and basically render it all "somebody else's problem".

(Also, Amtrak's timekeeping situation is such that simply having a late Amtrak train "ride" behind whatever Brightline train it ends up behind probably won't be the end of the world. It won't be any worse than "chasing" a Tri-Rail train.)


----------



## railiner

I think Amtrak should just ignore Brightline, and go back to their early scheme of two daily trains to Florida from NY, splitting at Jacksonville or Auburndale to serve Miami, and Tampa/St. Petersburg, catering to long haul traveler's. Let Florida deal with the various local regional trains in Florida.


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## Qapla

Yes, run one train through JAX using the current evening/night schedule and the other one 12 hours offset. Probably best to split them down where the Silver's now diverge (Auburndale/Lakeland area - where ever they used to split or where they can now) No need to "double" the traffic from JAX south when they can be split further south.

The only thing this would complicate are the routes in the Carolinas where the Meteor and the Star run different routes.


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## jis

railiner said:


> I think Amtrak should just ignore Brightline, and go back to their early scheme of two daily trains to Florida from NY, splitting at Jacksonville or Auburndale to serve Miami, and Tampa/St. Petersburg, catering to long haul traveler's. Let Florida deal with the various local regional trains in Florida.


I don't think Auburndale split will ever happen again. Any split if it happens, which itself is very doubtful, will be at JAX. There will not be any service to St. Pete except via Thruway. Also it is unlikely that Tampa will be redeveloped as an Amtrak terminal station capable of turning an LD train. All this of course unless some miracle happens. 

Frankly, we will be lucky to retain one train to Florida at the rate things are going.


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## railiner

Splitting at Jacksonville would be good, if they could restore service on the old SAL route for half of the trains...


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## jis

railiner said:


> Splitting at Jacksonville would be good, if they could restore service on the old SAL route for half of the trains...


Passenger service via Ocala is unlikely unless CSX is willing to reconsider the agreement that conveyed the Deland - Orlando - Poinciana segment to SunRail.

As betting odds go, Amtrak service via FECR is probably more likely at present than Amtrak service via Ocala, specially since all the connections are now in place to get Amtrak trains to rejoin their current route at West Palm Beach after traveling down the FECR from JAX.


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## Qapla

It would be interesting if they did split the train in JAX and could restore service through Waldo/Ocala/Lakeland - it would be nice to see the Waldo station back in use


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## joelkfla

Brightline has announced the location of their Walt Disney World station: Disney Springs, a highly-themed upscale shopping and dining development on the east edge of the property.

DS is a good distance from SR-417, which Brightline has proposed to use to get from the airport area to I-4, but it is very close to I-4 north of SR-417. If they can use that portion of the I-4 ROW, they could easily build a bridge into DS. Or they could build the station directly adjacent to I-4, where one of the DS parking garages is located and connected to DS by a pedestrian bridge.


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## Qapla

If they follow 417 up to John Young Pkwy - it is a fairly straight shot to I4 just north of DS without many roads or other infrastructure in the way


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> Brightline has announced the location of their Walt Disney World station: Disney Springs, a highly-themed upscale shopping and dining development on the east edge of the property.
> 
> DS is a good distance from SR-417, which Brightline has proposed to use to get from the airport area to I-4, but it is very close to I-4 north of SR-417. If they can use that portion of the I-4 ROW, they could easily build a bridge into DS. Or they could build the station directly adjacent to I-4, where one of the DS parking garages is located and connected to DS by a pedestrian bridge.


They planned to take SR 417 to 536 to I4 which already gets them to the vicinity of Disney Springs.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> They planned to take SR 417 to 536 to I4 which already gets them to the vicinity of Disney Springs.


I did not know the plan was to cut across on SR 536. Disney Springs is indeed close to the I-4/SR 536 junction. There's an extended exit ramp from that interchange directly into DS, which they could easily follow to a station on the West Side of DS.

ETA: This map from the the Orlando Sentinel in Jan. 2019 does not show using 536:


Source: Brightline to start building rail from South Florida to Orlando in March while it rebrands as Virgin Trains

Also in June 2019: Virgin Trains officials to break ground on high speed rail system in Orlando


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> I did not know the plan was to cut across on SR 536. Disney Springs is indeed close to the I-4/SR 536 junction. There's an extended exit ramp from that interchange directly into DS, which they could easily follow to a station on the West Side of DS.
> 
> ETA: This map from the the Orlando Sentinel in Jan. 2019 does not show using 536:
> View attachment 19645
> 
> Source: Brightline to start building rail from South Florida to Orlando in March while it rebrands as Virgin Trains
> 
> Also in June 2019: Virgin Trains officials to break ground on high speed rail system in Orlando


Brightline had published a more detailed map which showed the 536 option as the preferred one out of three or four different ones. I can’t find it any more, unfortunately. I will have to look in my private stash to if I squirreled a copy away. It was a PDF document IIRC.


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## McIntyre2K7

neroden said:


> As for service after Brightline gets to Tampa... yeah, it will make zero sense for Amtrak to go to Tampa then. That's still years from now, however, so we'll see about it when it happens. If Lakeland does not have a Brightline station, however (it is unclear whether it will) then Amtrak will probably continue making the "dogleg" because Lakeland won't want to lose service.



Lakeland officials have reached out to SunRail in regards of extending the service to Lakeland. I assume if that happens then Tampa officials might reach out to get it extended to Tampa. If Lakeland can get the SunRail then I don't see the need for them to get a Brightline station. If anything you have the Silver Star end in Tampa and have the Silver Meteor end in Miami. I think there would be 3 cities affected (Winter Haven, Sebring and Okeechobee) what you could do there is add thruway service from Lakeland to those cities or bring back the Floridian but have it serve the current route that the Silver Meteor does in Florida but once it leaves Jacksonville it goes to Atlanta (cut out the part that goes through Alabama) and send it to Chicago. Heck while you are at it bring the Sunset Limited back to Orlando as well. Now if you are in Florida you have a direct train that can get you to the Midwest, the Northeast and the West. Wishful thinking I guess..


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## jis

Reaching out to SunRail is the easy part. Actually getting your County to cough up the financial commitment to be contributed each year is the not so easy part. At present Volusia is trying hard to weasel out of the agreement that they entered into. We'll see how wel Lakeland officials do convincing their county to make the financial commitment. And yes, it is the County that has to commit funds over the long run since FDOT won’t fund it beyond five years for startup, if that.

It is higly unlikely that Amtrak will set up an LD train turning facility in Tampa for just one train when they can just cart it over to Miami while providing some intra state service in Florida. Of course, after Brightline has built out fully covering JAX, ORL, TPA and MIA, then I suppose Amtrak could just terminate all its trains in JAX.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Brightline had published a more detailed map which showed the 536 option as the preferred one out of three or four different ones. I can’t find it any more, unfortunately. I will have to look in my private stash to if I squirreled a copy away. It was a PDF document IIRC.


Here is a brand new detailed progress report, which includes a map (p. 11) showing WDW access via SR-536. The map also shows proposed SunRail service from Innovation Way to WDW, and a separate proposed LRT or BRT route along SR-528 between MCO & the Convention Center. The report also says that the 2 additional So. FL stations are targeted to open in 2022.


https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/F.1.-FinalBLPresentation_CFX_11122020_revised.pdf



Also, the Tampa extension is projected for 2029. with no Lakeland stop at this time.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> Here is a brand new detailed progress report, which includes a map (p. 11) showing WDW access via SR-536. The map also shows proposed SunRail service from Innovation Way to WDW, and a separate proposed LRT or BRT route along SR-528 between MCO & the Convention Center. The report also says that the 2 additional So. FL stations are targeted to open in 2022.
> 
> 
> https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/F.1.-FinalBLPresentation_CFX_11122020_revised.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the Tampa extension is projected for 2029. with no Lakeland stop at this time.


Thanks for finding the updated version of the document I was alluding to.

BTW, the LRT/Gadgetbahn from MCO to Convention Center via SR528 has been in the plans since very early on when the OIA station was proposed. It has gone through every possible mode (except Hyperloop) so far, having done the rounds with Monorail, Maglev, LRT and BRT so far. There is space and ROW set aside for it on OIA property. There is also space set aside at OIA station for an additional platform (low level) with two platform tracks for SunRail.

The Innovation Way to WDW is the proposed SunRail E-W Corridor that came up as part of the cost sharing proposal for the airport connection for SunRail. We'll see how that goes.

There are internal unannounced plans for two stations between Orlando and West Palm Beach too, with one of them firmly located at the Cocoa/Rockledge property of FECR, and the other yet to be determined somewhere Martin or St. Lucie County. I don;t think they will talk about them publicly until service starts to OIA.


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## jiml

jis said:


> It is higly unlikely that Amtrak will set up an LD train turning facility in Tampa for just one train when they can just cart it over to Miami while providing some intra state service in Florida. Of course, after Brightline has built out fully covering JAX, ORL, TPA and MIA, then I suppose Amtrak could just terminate all its trains in JAX.


What would the limitations be on turning a train in Tampa? Are we talking things like no commissary, servicing, etc., or physical limitations in the terminal area? I'm just curious what would be involved. Presumably it was done previously when the sections were separated.


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## Qapla

Tampa can physically reverse the direction of the train since they do that each time it goes there - they wye and back into the station. They do not have the facilities there to "service" the train for a "complete turn".


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## jiml

Qapla said:


> Tampa can physically reverse the direction of the train since they do that each time it goes there - they wye and back into the station. They do not have the facilities there to "service" the train for a "complete turn".


I've spent many winters around Tampa and have seen the train backing. I was more thinking of the restocking, laundry and staffing logistics. When the sections of the train were split "back in the day" this must all have happened. There's a lot to argue for more and better service in that area of the state. With Brightline some years away, it seems like a logical niche for Amtrak. I'd run one Silver to Miami (possibly via FEC as mentioned previously) and the other to Tampa/St. Pete, then look at a stub train to serve Tampa-Miami until Brightline fills that gap.


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> I've spent many winters around Tampa and have seen the train backing. I was more thinking of the restocking, laundry and staffing logistics. When the sections of the train were split "back in the day" this must all have happened. There's a lot to argue for more and better service in that area of the state. With Brightline some years away, it seems like a logical niche for Amtrak. I'd run one Silver to Miami (possibly via FEC as mentioned previously) and the other to Tampa/St. Pete, then look at a stub train to serve Tampa-Miami until Brightline fills that gap.


I am almost certain that Amtrak will not reinstate the staffing and facility needed to service an LD train in Tampa. The Star at present serves the purpose of a train to Tampa and a local train within Florida, and can be serviced in the established Miami base. This is not going to change in the foreseeable future. And nothing will get extended to St. Pete either. It will continue to be served by Thruway Bus.

Even if Amtrak manages to run a train down FEC, it will be a section of one of the trains coming from the North. They are not going to cut out Orlando and its vast market entirely from any train coming from the north, specially when they serve different routes up north.


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## joelkfla

With Brightline some years away
[/QUOTE]
At least 9 years, according to the progress report.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Reaching out to SunRail is the easy part. Actually getting your County to cough up the financial commitment to be contributed each year is the not so easy part. At present Volusia is trying to hard to weasel out of the agreement that they entered into. We'll see how wel Lakeland officials do convincing their county to make the financial commitment. And yes, it is the County that has to commit funds over the long run since FDOT won;t fund it beyond five years for startup, if that.
> 
> It is higly unlikely that Amtrak will set up an LD train turning facility in Tampa for just one train when they can just cart it over to Miami while providing some intra state service in Florida. Of course, after Brightline has built out fully covering JAX, ORL, TPA and MIA, then I suppose Amtrak could just terminate all its trains in JAX.



They could. Although in that long run, terminating Amtrak at ORL and servicing everything at facilities in Sanford is possibly more plausible. 

Brightline is going to take a lot of Amtrak's ridership south of Orlando, there's no way around it. Hialeah is going to start looking like a worse servicing location than Beech Grove, which is already stranded. At some point Amtrak is going to have to think seriously about its bad shop locations.

When Tampa gets Brightline service, if Lakeland also gets service from Brightline or SunRail or anyone, then the Silver Star detour to Tampa will be unsustainable, I suspect. The intra-Florida traffic would be marginal at that point (Okechobee, Sebring, and Winter Haven to Tampa/Lakeland -- appears to be 5000 to 7000 people per year, and dropping each year). And it might actually be faster to take Brightline from Tampa to Orlando and catch Amtrak at Orlando than to take Amtrak direct from Tampa, which would eviscerate the main business.

That'll leave Okechobee, Sebring, and Winter Haven as the only stations between Miami and Orlando which don't have alternative service. These are significant so Amtrak would probably still continue running to Miami until/unless they get alternative service. Which they might -- a quick googling found advocacy from Polk County elected officials for connecting Winter Haven to SunRail. 

However, at this point I don't see Lakeland getting Brightline service for quite a few years, so the current service patterns will probably remain unchanged for a while.


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## joelkfla

neroden said:


> And it might actually be faster to take Brightline from Tampa to Orlando and catch Amtrak at Orlando than to take Amtrak direct from Tampa, which would eviscerate the main business.


Except that Brightline will stop at the airport, and Amtrak stops just south of downtown. Getting from one to the other will be a real pain in the patootie, especially for physically challenged riders and people with large luggage.

If SunRail makes it out to the airport, it will be a direct connection between the two stations, but there's no telling how efficient the connections will be, and schlepping luggage will be a hassle.


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## jis

One thing I would not yet do with full confidence is count all the Brightline chicken before even the eggs are properly laid.  And who knows, come the next problem of any sort, Brightline might withdraw service again for months until they find it conveient to restart service. There are many issues of sustainable service provision that still remain unresolved in the initial euphoria.

Ideally Amtrak should add a stop at Meadow Woods, and Brightline should stop there too, making it a universal transfer station among all rail service around Orlando.

Whether SunRail will have a single seat ride service from its north leg to the Airport, which will be on its E-W corridor remains an open question. It could as well involve a transfer SunRail to SunRail at Meadow Woods. As none of this is really funded, we will not know what shape it will take eventually. Remember, SunRail is yet to find its way to Deland too which has been in the plans for over a decade now. And oh yes... The LRT/Monorail/Maglev/BRT from OIA to I-Drive/Convention Center that has been imminently being built and starting next year for the last decade or so too.

Remember, this *is* Florida, where at one time land was sold by the Gallon!


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## railiner

OBS staffing for a train terminating in Tampa, can be provided from the NY crew base... not sure about t&e crew...is there a base in JAX?
I still think Amtrak should keep both trains as they are, and not bother with what Brightline does or doesn’t do...


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## Qapla

railiner said:


> I still think Amtrak should keep both trains as they are



Well, as they used to be [both daily] not quite "as they are now" with the weird 3/4 day alternating schedule


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## railiner

Qapla said:


> Well, as they used to be [both daily] not quite "as they are now" with the weird 3/4 day alternating schedule


Right, that’s what I meant.


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## joelkfla

railiner said:


> OBS staffing for a train terminating in Tampa, can be provided from the NY crew base... not sure about t&e crew...is there a base in JAX?
> I still think Amtrak should keep both trains as they are, and not bother with what Brightline does or doesn’t do...


At least for the next 9 years. Brightline is targeting service to Tampa for 2029.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> At least for the next 9 years. Brightline is targeting service to Tampa for 2029.


Given their track record so far, we can count on having something by 2035 maybe?


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## Just-Thinking-51

No crew base in Jacksonville anymore. One of the issues about getting the Sunset Limited East to return was the closing of that T/E base.


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## Barb Stout

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> No crew base in Jacksonville anymore. One of the issues about getting the Sunset Limited East to return was the closing of that T/E base.


What were the stops on the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans prior to Katrina?


----------



## jis

Barb Stout said:


> What were the stops on the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans prior to Katrina?



Eastbound from NOL:

Bay St. Louis, MS
Gulfport, MS
Biloxi, MS
Pascagoula, MS
Mobile, AL
Atmore, AL
Pensacola, FL
Crestview, FL (Ft. Walton Beach)
Chipley, FL (Panama City)
Tallahassee, FL
Madison, FL
Lake City, FL (Gainesville)
Jacksonville, FL
Palatka, FL
DeLand, FL (Daytona Beach)
Sanford, FL
Winter Park, FL
Orlando, FL (Walt Disney World), Thruway Bus to Tampa and St. Petersburg

Ref: The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## railiner

When Amtrak first extended it, it ran all the way to Miami....



The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## Barb Stout

jis said:


> Eastbound from NOL:
> 
> Bay St. Louis, MS
> Gulfport, MS
> Biloxi, MS
> Pascagoula, MS
> Mobile, AL
> Atmore, AL
> Pensacola, FL
> Crestview, FL (Ft. Walton Beach)
> Chipley, FL (Panama City)
> Tallahassee, FL
> Madison, FL
> Lake City, FL (Gainesville)
> Jacksonville, FL
> Palatka, FL
> DeLand, FL (Daytona Beach)
> Sanford, FL
> Winter Park, FL
> Orlando, FL (Walt Disney World), Thruway Bus to Tampa and St. Petersburg
> 
> Ref: The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


How wonderful that must have been. Can you imagine taking it all the way from LA to Orlando through all those stops?! I can't because I have never been to those places east of San Antonio.


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## jis

I suspect the Sunset Limited discussion belongs somewhere other than the Brightline thread. It is unlikely that Brightline will ever directly interface with the Sunset Limited anywhere.

Also for Mods attention, maybe it is time to get rid of the "Virgin Trains" moniker from the title of this thread? They are gone and are not coming back anytime soon.


----------



## Ziv

Wow. Page 8 of the paper talks about box-jacking in pre-built (on-site) underpass tunnels in a matter of days. These are 42'x29'x146'/126' and they hydraulically jack them laterally into place in a matter of days with no "dig and cover". The LIRR is doing the same thing and doing it over the weekend with union labor doing it for the first time with instruction from the Italian company that pioneered the technique. The LIRR ones are slightly smaller at 40'x24'x112' but this is impressive!








Box-Jacking Operation Moves Rail Underpass in a Weekend


Innovative box-jacking method from an Italian engineering firm is deployed for the first time in the U.S. for LIRR's grade-crossing elimination project.




www.enr.com








joelkfla said:


> Here is a brand new detailed progress report, which includes a map (p. 11) showing WDW access via SR-536. The map also shows proposed SunRail service ... open in 2022.
> 
> 
> https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/F.1.-FinalBLPresentation_CFX_11122020_revised.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the Tampa extension is projected for 2029. with no Lakeland stop at this time.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

So where is Meadow Woods? For us out of town folks. There is a town by that name is there a location that SunRail and Brightline would be meet at?


----------



## McIntyre2K7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So where is Meadow Woods? For us out of town we folks. There is a town by that name is there a extract location that SunRail and Brightline would be meet at?



Meadow Woods is just southwest of Orlando International Airport. You are correct regarding the second part. If everything goes as planned this would be the station where you could switch between Brightline and Sunrail trains.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So where is Meadow Woods? For us out of town folks. There is a town by that name is there a location that SunRail and Brightline would be meet at?


In Google Map look for the Meadow Woods Sunrail Station. This would be the Sunrail Brightline interchange station according to current plans.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Small station with limited parking. Three modes of train travel to meet here? Some upgrades will be needed. Well at least there a little bus depot at this location.


----------



## joelkfla

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Meadow Woods is just southwest of Orlando International Airport. You are correct regarding the second part. If everything goes as planned this would be the station where you could switch between Brightline and Sunrail trains.


Except that the latest map, in the link I posted earlier, specifically shows Brightline _not _stopping at Meadow Woods. I suspect Disney may have insisted on no intermediate stops between MCO & WDW.

Not sure, but I don't think SunRail platforms are long enough or high enough for Brightline trains. And all Brightline stations to date have controlled access to waiting rooms and platforms, requiring a ticket scan and X-ray screening. SunRail stations are just two side platforms and a parking lot. So Brightline would have to build an entire new station facility to serve Meadow Woods.


----------



## jis

The same station can have different dedicated platforms for Brightline and Sunrail, like Miami Central has separate dedicated platforms for Brightline and Trirail.

What that diagram shows today is not necessarily indicative of what the final operating plans and stoppage patterns will be. Things will evolve and change many times before actual realization.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> The same station can have different dedicated platforms for Brightline and Sunrail, like Miami Central has separate dedicated platforms for Brightline and Trirail.
> 
> What that diagram shows today is not necessarily indicative of what the final operating plans and stoppage patterns will be. Things will evolve and change many times before actual realization.


Sure, but like I said, there's really no station there, just a couple of platforms and a parking lot. The question is, does Brightline think it's worth their money to build one?

In current plans, as presented to local government, there is no transfer point there.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Sure, but like I said, there's really no station there, just a couple of platforms and a parking lot. The question is, does Brightline think it's worth their money to build one?
> 
> In current plans, as presented to local government, there is no transfer point there.


My general observation is that until we see the EIS with the exact alignment and associated structures it is all just speculation of the day. So there really is not much to argue about. So I do tip my hat to you


----------



## me_little_me

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Small station with limited parking. Three modes of train travel to meet here? Some upgrades will be needed. Well at least there a little bus depot at this location.


And why would a station intended to be a transfer point between three non-auto means of transportation need a lot of parking?

Parking is needed when your mode of transportation is between transit and automobiles.


----------



## Qapla

me_little_me said:


> why would a station intended to be a transfer point between three non-auto means of transportation need a lot of parking



The SunRail stops need parking because they are for short travel to area people who live near the station want to go without driving in the traffic. They only need to drive to the SunRail station, leave their car and use the train. Those parking lots stay full most of the day.

SunRail would have no reason to support a "transfer point" since they cater to the locals.


----------



## me_little_me

Qapla said:


> The SunRail stops need parking because they are for short travel to area people who live near the station want to go without driving in the traffic. They only need to drive to the SunRail station, leave their car and use the train. Those parking lots stay full most of the day.
> 
> SunRail would have no reason to support a "transfer point" since they cater to the locals.


They have parking (small station with limited parking). Obviously SunRail thought it was sufficient or they could not afford more.

SunRail has no reason to support a "transfer point"?
What about their customers from other local stations who want to use SunRail to get further than one of their stations?
What about their customers who have taken another mode of transport and want to get to their nearest station?
What about having the Orlando airport station? That is not needed based on your theory that locals only travel locally and have no need for a "transfer point".

InterModal is for the benefit of customers. It allows customers to extend their reach beyond the boundaries of their local transport more easily. It encourages more customers to use their local service. Are you saying SunRail doesn't care about Intermodal or their customers' needs?


----------



## Qapla

I guess I worded that poorly ...

Put more succinctly, and in response to this comment


me_little_me said:


> why would a station intended to be a transfer point between three non-auto means of transportation need a lot of parking?



They need parking lots since most of their customers are locals who drive to the station.


----------



## joelkfla

Sounds like the president of Brightline has pretty much ruled out the northern (SR-528) route between MCO & WDW, unless some government kicks in some money: Brightline Trains not likely to make stop near International Drive


----------



## Qapla

Well, I can see the argument from both sides ... no matter how you look at it, money is needed!


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> Sounds like the president of Brightline has pretty much ruled out the northern (SR-528) route between MCO & WDW, unless some government kicks in some money: Brightline Trains not likely to make stop near International Drive


None of their many plans had ever a consideration to use SR-528 alignment west of Semoran Blvd. so it is not surprising that Patrick has stated it yet again. I suspect even if someone gave them a Billion they would try to avoid that mess, unless it also came with all the permits and easements pre-arranged I suppose.

In any case, the original plan for OIA access had an LRT slated to cover that from the OIA multi-modal station. Orlando in its infinite wisdom flirted with Florida style shysters peddling first a Monorail, then a Maglev. I guess next step would be Hyperloop, while a simple LRT which would actually cost less is not attractive to the Florida style investors since it is not sexy enough for someone to sink a lot of money into.


----------



## TRoberts

What would really be ideal, is if a new rail station were built that served Amtrak, Brightline, and SunRail. I would love to step off of my Amtrak train and catch a Brightline direct to Disney.


----------



## jis

New Details on Brightline Train Station Coming to Disney Springs


Brightline and Disney have given new details on their agreement for a future train station that's coming to Disney Springs.



www.wdwinfo.com







TRoberts said:


> What would really be ideal, is if a new rail station were built that served Amtrak, Brightline, and SunRail. I would love to step off of my Amtrak train and catch a Brightline direct to Disney.


When Brightline placed their proposed track adjacent to SunRail at Meadow Woods station they said they intended to place an interchange station there. Since then plans may or may not have changed, what with the whole SunRail East-West Corridor proposal with OIA station for SunRail included, that comes attached with the WDW station proposal. So who knows? Stay tuned.

Suffice it to say that Brightline could as well have just followed 417 all the way from South of the airport to 536 instead of doing the jog through Meadow Woods if they did not have something in mind for Meadow Woods, which may of course simply be a SunRail stop on its route from OIA to WDW, that Brightline will bypass.


----------



## west point

Have various family that often fly from MCO. Most would love to not either be dropped off at MCO or worse still pay high parking fees for a 2 week period. They all keep asking me why Sun Rail doesn't go to MCO. That is their second most complaint the first being that there is no weekend service for the many events that occur on weekends or for O&Ds at MCO on weekends.. That has been mostly muted by the Covid-19 problems.


----------



## chrsjrcj

The transfer station will be mostly useless until SunRail adds weekend service and more midday trains. Considering the current situation requiring more people to work from home, they should rethink their peak hour commuter model anyway since people who do have to physically show up to work likely don’t work a traditional 9 to 5.


----------



## joelkfla

chrsjrcj said:


> The transfer station will be mostly useless until SunRail adds weekend service and more midday trains.


I think local politicians have said the same thing in regard to potential airport service.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I think local politicians have said the same thing in regard to potential airport service.


And it is the local politicians who have consistently failed to provide funds to do things that they say need to be done. IOW they are experts at talking through both sides of their mouth, or they seriously believe in pixie dust from tooth fairies.


----------



## jis

So it looks like it will be 3Q2021 for service resumption between Miami and West Palm Beach. This suggests that there is still some work to be completed in the installation, testing and certification of the Wabtec I-ETMS PTC system.

Port Miami is slated for early 22, which is quite feasible IMHO. Orlando is now projected to be late 2022. Looking at progress of work and its pace in Brevard and Orange Counties, I would not be surprised at all if that slips to early 2023. Disney Springs is slated to be late 2023. This is segment for which currently no ROW permits are in place, so I'd take that with a pinch of salt, specially since FDOT will probably demand a full buildout plan to Tampa before granting any permits. They are deadly afraid that Brightline will build to Disney and then stop. They want to build in some significant disincentives from that happening.









Brightline Says Service Will Resume Q3 2021; Orlando Starts Late 2022, 10 Million Passengers By 2024


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## jis

More Boond Sales, this time to fund the balance of the extension to Orlando, including Disney Springs apparently, though the actual permitting and access to ROW beyond OIA is yet to be finalized.









Rail News - Brightline seeks bond sale to finance Florida rail expansion. For Railroad Career Professionals







www.progressiverailroading.com


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Disney Springs is slated to be late 2023. This is segment for which currently no ROW permits are in place, so I'd take that with a pinch of salt, specially since FDOT will probably demand a full buildout plan to Tampa before granting any permits. They are deadly afraid that Brightline will build to Disney and then stop. They want to build in some significant disincentives from that happening.



OK, while I get that, I think it's misguided on the part of FDOT, since Brightline has a very strong incentive to go all the way to Tampa. 
(1) Tampa-Disney
(2) Tampa-Orlando
(3) Tampa-Orlando Airport
(4) Tampa-Miami
Lots of ridership / network effects.

The business case is so strong that FDOT really shouldn't be worried about Brightline backing out on Tampa. But you're right, FDOT is acting paranoid about that, which is perversely going to delay getting to Disney, since I think the biggest delay is getting ROW access!


----------



## neroden

Looking at the report on the state of progress on Orlando-WPB, I'm really not seeing what's going to take so long. They've got one bridge to start building between Orlando and Cocoa. I don't see anything else which is non-parallelizable with a long lead time. It looks like most of it should be substantially done by the end of 2021, easily. And they have an incentive to open Orlando service as soon as possible.

I'd love to see a Gantt chart, because I don't see what would push it into "late 2022" unless that one bridge is going to take a long time. They might actually open that part on time or early.


----------



## VentureForth

I just moved to Melbourne. I haven't had an opportunity to go through this whole thread, but I'll try to eventually. Only 6 pages which is nothing in the grand scheme of massive threads here. The original post is awesome with a lot of details I've been looking for. I've personally been observing the double tracking throughout Brevard county including fresh, beautiful concrete ties as well the work being done along 528. Very exciting, but I wanted to see more area cleared along 528 by now.

Now, technically, there is only one new bridge being built along 528 over Taylor Creek, but there are plenty of crossovers over roads. Some of these seem to have relatively steep grades. I guess they have no intention on sharing with freight traffic, which is fine by me. Keep passengers ROWs for passengers. If needed, they could probably accommodate short, light freights.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> Is the plan to cut South, then North into the airport? Then, reverse to Disney/Tampa? Or is there a plan for a straight through path from the North or South? I have tried searching for a detailed map of the intended route from 528 through the Airport and on to points West.


No, it generally runs along the east side of the main airport north-south road, until it cuts west to the station. Most of the route through the airport is clearly visible on the 2020 Orange County Property Appraiser map. I believe these aerial photos were taken either December 2019 or January 2020.

Go to ArcGIS Web Application
Close the "Identify" panel
Zoom in on "OIA" on the map
Open the "Base Map" pulldown and select "Aerial 2020"
The station is the halfway between the left and right runways, and just south of the south end of the left runway. The narrower ROW on the left coming out of the smaller part of the station is the Automated People Mover. The wider ROW passing through the elongated part of the station is Brightline, and you can follow it both north and south almost to the airport boundaries on the map.


----------



## jis

The space to the right of the Brightline platforms is the sapce that has been set aside for SunRail platforms, should it come to pass.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Now, technically, there is only one new bridge being built along 528 over Taylor Creek, but there are plenty of crossovers over roads. Some of these seem to have relatively steep grades. I guess they have no intention on sharing with freight traffic, which is fine by me. Keep passengers ROWs for passengers. If needed, they could probably accommodate short, light freights.


Well the really big bridge along 528 would be the St. Johns River Bridge which is being worked on, and of course there is Econlockhatchee River and the little Turkey Creek too.

The agreement with Central Florida Expressway Authority does not permit operation of freight trains along the 528 Corridor. As matter of fact even carrying passengers from stations other than Miami Central, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and OIA requires amendments to the agreement. But it mostly involves agreeing on what per passenger fee Brightline has to pay CFEA and should be mostly a no brainer based on Beachline usage data.


----------



## VentureForth

This may be a really stupid question, but seeing that the tracks run literally right next to the terminal, why is the station so far out from there? Will there be a people mover? Bus? Walk from the station to/from the terminals?


----------



## Brian_tampa

VentureForth said:


> This may be a really stupid question, but seeing that the tracks run literally right next to the terminal, why is the station so far out from there? Will there be a people mover? Bus? Walk from the station to/from the terminals?


There is a completely new terminal being built just west of the station. New Terminal C will be for JetBlue and international flights (future increase in international flights mostly). The plans show it could ultimately surround the train station 20 years in the future if air travel demand keeps increasing.


----------



## Brian_tampa

neroden said:


> Looking at the report on the state of progress on Orlando-WPB, I'm really not seeing what's going to take so long. They've got one bridge to start building between Orlando and Cocoa. I don't see anything else which is non-parallelizable with a long lead time. It looks like most of it should be substantially done by the end of 2021, easily. And they have an incentive to open Orlando service as soon as possible.
> 
> I'd love to see a Gantt chart, because I don't see what would push it into "late 2022" unless that one bridge is going to take a long time. They might actually open that part on time or early.


This is the only construction schedule chart I have ever come across. It isn't very detailed but lays out the basic schedule for each section of work for phase 2 (WPB-MCO). It was part of the 2019 PAB memorandum document from April 2019. In that document it is located toward the end.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> This may be a really stupid question, but seeing that the tracks run literally right next to the terminal, why is the station so far out from there? Will there be a people mover? Bus? Walk from the station to/from the terminals?


The first question was answered by @Brian_tampa . The answer to the second question is there is already an operating people mover between Terminals A/B and Treminal C. The C Parking lot is open and in use already.

The station is connected by a short walkway to Parking Lot C and and will be connected by a longer walkway to Terminal C Phase I.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> The first question was answered by @Brian_tampa . The answer to the second question is there is already an operating people mover between Terminals A/B and Treminal C. The C Parking lot is open and in use already.


To expand on that, as I said in my earlier post, you can see the APM on the aerials. It is a new, fast Mitsubishi Crystal Mover. Travel time between terminals is under 4 minutes.

The connected Garage C also offers check-in for major domestic airlines during peak departure times up to 90 minutes before flight time.








South APM Station/Garage "C" - Orlando International Aiport (MCO)


As part of Orlando International Airport’s $3.5 billion Capital Improvement Program, the Intermodal Terminal Facility and South Airport APM Complex are




orlandoairports.net


----------



## neroden

Brian_tampa said:


> This is the only construction schedule chart I have ever come across. It isn't very detailed but lays out the basic schedule for each section of work for phase 2 (WPB-MCO). It was part of the 2019 PAB memorandum document from April 2019. In that document it is located toward the end.


Thanks. Those are blatant placeholders.

"Construct Zone 3A" as one bar on the chart, seriously? (Same with "Construct Zone 3B", etc.)

Everything which is broken out in more detail has earlier completion dates.

I'm thinking they've left themselves some slack time to get ahead. Unless one of those major bridges is extra slow.

What this does tell me is that they're planning to open exactly 8 months after "substantial completion", meaning the end of the major construction contracts. That seems like it's believable and justified.

The date for that substantial completion however, end of April 2022, seems to have been arbitrarily picked out of a hat -- it's unjustified. It actually depends on how long "Zone 3A", "Zone 3B", and "Zone 4 North-South" actually take, all of which are under construction now. The chart simply picks the same arbitrary time length for construction for all of them, which is clearly a placeholder.

In reality, the timeline is probably determined by whichever bridge is the last to finish. So I'm curious about which bridges have made the least progress so far.


----------



## jis

I suppose even they have observed that they have missed their declared dates in the past by pretty large margins, which indicates that they do not know what obstacles will come up as they trudge along through endless marshes and try to build new bridges on an active railroad on the N-S segment. Maybe this time they are trying to finish within their declared dates, and to achieve that they are being less aggressive with the dates.

The latter involves building a shoefly bridge to get the traffic off the current bridge. dismantle the current bridge and bild a new one. I am watching this in real life as it unfolds over Eau Fallie River and Crane Creek in Melbourne. At Crane Creek the shoefly is about 1/3rd done. I will have to drive by Eau Gallie to see what's up with that one. There are similar things going on at St. Sabastian River, Turkey Creek and Goat Creek in Southern Brevard. There are more major bridges further south. I don't know what's going on down there at present.

They are making slow progress i Brevard County in rebuilding grade crossing, of which there are some 40 or so. Track has been laid for the second track in disconnected segments south of Melbourne. Nothing in Melbourne or nort to Cocoa yet, though grade has been cleared in places. This week I believe the Port Malabr Road grade crossing is supposed to be worked on.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> The latter involves building a shoefly bridge to get the traffic off the current bridge. dismantle the current bridge and bild a new one. I am watching this in real life as it unfolds over Eau Fallie River and Crane Creek in Melbourne. At Crane Creek the shoefly is about 1/3rd done. I will have to drive by Eau Gallie to see what's up with that one. There are similar things going on at St. Sabastian River, Turkey Creek and Goat Creek in Southern Brevard. There are more major bridges further south. I don't know what's going on down there at present.
> 
> They are making slow progress i Brevard County in rebuilding grade crossing, of which there are some 40 or so. Track has been laid for the second track in disconnected segments south of Melbourne. Nothing in Melbourne or nort to Cocoa yet, though grade has been cleared in places. This week I believe the Port Malabr Road grade crossing is supposed to be worked on.


YouTuber The Roaming Railfan has been posting drive-bys, as well as occasional drone flights in the unpopulated areas, every couple of weeks.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> YouTuber The Roaming Railfan has been posting drive-bys, as well as occasional drone flights in the unpopulated areas, every couple of weeks.


Yup. I have all of them. But it still is more fun to go and see for oneself


----------



## jis

The Palm Beach Post







amp.palmbeachpost.com


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> The Palm Beach Post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.palmbeachpost.com


Pet Peeve: What ever happened to copy editors? The linked article is rife with grammatical errors and incomplete sentences.


----------



## Qapla

Seems to be a common situation with many of todays news stories - be them from mainstream or alternative media.


----------



## jis

Qapla said:


> Seems to be a common situation with many of todays news stories - be them from mainstream or alternative media.


This one is more of a mainstream thing. Palm Beach Post is a Gannett property AFAICT.


----------



## MikefromCrete

joelkfla said:


> Pet Peeve: What ever happened to copy editors? The linked article is rife with grammatical errors and incomplete sentences.



They got laid off.


----------



## jiml

Copy editors and error checkers were the first casualties of streamlining news organizations. With word processors becoming the norm, spell-check became the standard, with error checking (if any) done by unpaid or underpaid interns. Unfortunately most of them don't know the difference between there, their or they're any better than computer spell-check. Most embarrassing is when TV News gets a "super" wrong and it's a famous person or placename.


----------



## neroden

After reviewing the most recent article and all of the videos from Roaming Railfan, I'm pretty sure the slow items are:
(1) The bridges on the existing route where they are building a temporary bridge before replacing the bridge. Those temporary bridges are all started, but seem to be going pretty slowly. In several cases there are grade crossings which aren't being done until the bridge is done because the second track space is being used as the construction access road for the bridge; waiting to start the crossing work until the adjacent bridge is done adds to the final project completion time. Theoretically they should be able to begin service without these bridges being complete, but there would be rather long single-tracked sections which would not enable a full service schedule or full speeds. Financially, it still might make sense to introduce some service even if one or two of these bridges wasn't complete, if it started generating Orlando revenues earlier.
(2) The overpass of 528/Beachline over the new ROW east of the I-55 cloverleaf, which is nothing more than some piles of dirt at this point -- and involves coordination with the expressway authorities. This is critical and they can't operate a single train to Orlando without it. (They can't do a partial opening north of West Palm Beach without going all the way to Orlando because none of the intermediate stations between WPB and Orlando are anything more than design concepts at this point, so it's absolutely necessary to complete the track to Orlando in order to add any service.) This elevation/relocation of 528 is not scheduled to open until mid-August 2021.

All the bridges on the new Orlando-Cocoa ROW (and the second tunnel, and the trench) look to be well on schedule to complete in mid-2021, except for that expressway overpass. On the existing line, the grade crossings, double tracking, and signals everywhere except the bridges look like they're well on schedule to complete in mid-2021 too. The maintenance facility is supposed to be ready to receive trains (though not complete) by September 2021. 

If things go well, they could be open around May 2021; the critical path appears to run through that 528 elevation, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## joelkfla

neroden said:


> (2) The overpass of 528/Beachline over the new ROW east of the *I-55* cloverleaf


I-95?


----------



## Qapla

neroden said:


> The overpass of 528/Beachline over the new ROW east of the *I-55 cloverleaf*,





joelkfla said:


> I-95?



Yeah, I think that must have been a typo


----------



## John Santos

joelkfla said:


> Pet Peeve: What ever happened to copy editors? The linked article is rife with grammatical errors and incomplete sentences.


The Internet. Newspapers lost virtually all their classified ad revenue and cut costs wherever they could. One of the first things to go was copy editors. They now print stories exactly as submitted by the reporters with no grammatical checking, fact checking, or editing for flow, coherency, redundancy or anything else. And it shows.


----------



## jis

John Santos said:


> The Internet. Newspapers lost virtually all their classified ad revenue and cut costs wherever they could. One of the first things to go was copy editors. They now print stories exactly as submitted by the reports with no grammatical checking, fact checking, or editing for flow, coherency, redundancy or anything else. And it shows.


Sometimes it would seem there is no ascertaining of whether it is written in the language of the publication either.


----------



## jis

Brightline Announces It Is Considering Adding Service To Both Miami International Airport & FLL


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## west point

1. Does the MIA airport station have high level platform for Amtrak ? If so no problem there. 
2. I believe a connection between the south E-W FEC track and the east N-S Florida TriRail track will need a connection in the SE corner of those two lines at IRIS CP ? Both lines are 2 Main track. That along with the necessary signaling and of course the PTC interchange from FEC to TriRail and reverse. Last time there no real estate problem unlike the NE connection that had to be weaved under Metro Rail and, station and ? street.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

No high level platform at Miami airport station at this time. No Amtrak service only Tri-Rail which is majority trilevel railcars. So low level platform only.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> 2. I believe a connection between the south E-W FEC track and the east N-S Florida TriRail track will need a connection in the SE corner of those two lines at IRIS CP ? Both lines are 2 Main track. That along with the necessary signaling and of course the PTC interchange from FEC to TriRail and reverse. Last time there no real estate problem unlike the NE connection that had to be weaved under Metro Rail and, station and ? street.


Your memory is not serving you well. Open up Google Map of the area to refresh.

There was no weaving under Metro Rail involved for the NE connector at CP Iris. There was additional bridging required for NW 37th Ave.

The SE connector will require dismantling of the RAM Steel Framing facility and acquisition of that land, and some more additional bridging work at NW 37th Ave.


----------



## DSS&A

Brightline buying five more trainsets from Siemens and other items are in this Trains Newswire article.









New Brightline details included in $950 million bond sale - Trains


MIAMI — Although a planned private activity bond sale to help finance Brightline’s proposed Southern California-Las Vegas, Nev., route has been delayed, long-term investors weren’t deterred from snapping up $950 million in the company’s Florida bond offering just before Christmas. The bond sale...




trn.trains.com


----------



## Mailliw

DSS&A said:


> Brightline buying five more trainsets from Siemens and other items are in this Trains Newswire article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Brightline details included in $950 million bond sale - Trains
> 
> 
> MIAMI — Although a planned private activity bond sale to help finance Brightline’s proposed Southern California-Las Vegas, Nev., route has been delayed, long-term investors weren’t deterred from snapping up $950 million in the company’s Florida bond offering just before Christmas. The bond sale...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> trn.trains.com


Interesting they have an option for cafe cars. Presumably if they order them it won't be until Tampa is active. Brightline West should definitely have cafe/*bar *cars.


----------



## cirdan

jiml said:


> Copy editors and error checkers were the first casualties of streamlining news organizations. With word processors becoming the norm, spell-check became the standard, with error checking (if any) done by unpaid or underpaid interns. Unfortunately most of them don't know the difference between there, their or they're any better than computer spell-check. Most embarrassing is when TV News gets a "super" wrong and it's a famous person or placename.



It's not just about copy editing.

Back in the day journalists actually went out and did research on the ground. Asking questions and debunking and checking things out.

These days they don't have the time for that and just blindly believe whatever the press releases claim.

At least as far as business and local news is concerned.


----------



## jis

The scuttlebutt in the architects community appears to be that Brightline has selected the GasWorx location for its Tampa station. This is an area to the left of the Amtrak route as it enters Tampa station. It is roughly between where the TECO Trolley line crosses Amtrak's route and Tampa Union station. I suspect that like its Miami station it will be an elevated structure with associated real estate development.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> The scuttlebutt in the architects community appears to be that Brightline has selected the GasWorx location for its Tampa station. This is an area to the left of the Amtrak route as it enters Tampa station. It is roughly between where the TECO Trolley line crosses Amtrak's route and Tampa Union station. I suspect that like its Miami station it will be an elevated structure with associated real estate development.


I don't know about it being elevated. I assume Miami is elevated because the ROW crosses several streets there. If I'm looking at the right place in Tampa, that wouldn't be the case if it comes in from the same direction as Amtrak. In fact, there is an elevated expressway and ramp that might conflict with an elevated platform.


----------



## jis

I am just assuming that the architects know better than me


joelkfla said:


> In fact, there is an elevated expressway and ramp that might conflict with an elevated platform.


There is no elevated expressway incursion at the proposed site. The elevated expressway is to its south.

Just like in Miami this edifice would be above several streets and the tracks will also have to cross the CSX approach to Tampa Union Station and the TECO Trolley.


----------



## Qapla

Is this the location? The place marked "TECO"?




The current Amtrak approach is the track marked with a reddish-brown line and the TECO Trolley is the blue line

If so, where is the new approach going to be ... is the new rail going to be using the ROW in the middle of I-4?


----------



## jis

Qapla said:


> Is this the location? The place marked "TECO"?
> 
> View attachment 20281
> 
> 
> The current Amtrak approach is the track marked with a reddish-brown line and the TECO Trolley is the blue line
> 
> If so, where is the new approach going to be ... is the new rail going to be using the ROW in the middle of I-4?


Yes. The are still working out that piece of detail. One could merely surmise that it would be elevated roughly along 125th St. Niuccio Pkwy. But there are other possibilities.

My thinking is, if it is indeed going to be an elevated station, it would have been kind of nice if they could have placed it right atop the Tampa Union Station Yard, with pedestrian access from both the Union Station head house and Ybor City end, together with a TECO Trolley stop at the north end of the station.

Right now it is relatively early times. Let us see how it develops.


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## neroden

Brightline Says Miami To Orlando Rail Line Construction Is Now 50% Complete, On Schedule


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com





OK, so it looks like Cocoa-Orlando is actually well ahead of the upgrades from WPB-Cocoa. Cocoa-Orlando is expected to be done June 2022 (I think I know what the slowest bit is -- the expressway relocation). But WPB-Cocoa is not expected to be done until Q4 2022, and therefore contains the critical path. I wonder which bridge is the critical path: it's going to be one of the bridges, for sure.


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## Qapla

With TUS being owned by the City of Tampa and is on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places, that could be a reason it would not be used as a location for Brightline. It's adjacent proximity would make it very easy to have some sort of physical connection between the two.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> I am just assuming that the architects know better than me
> 
> There is no elevated expressway incursion at the proposed site. The elevated expressway is to its south.
> 
> Just like in Miami this edifice would be above several streets and the tracks will also have to cross the CSX approach to Tampa Union Station and the TECO Trolley.





Qapla said:


> Is this the location? The place marked "TECO"?
> 
> View attachment 20281
> 
> 
> The current Amtrak approach is the track marked with a reddish-brown line and the TECO Trolley is the blue line
> 
> If so, where is the new approach going to be ... is the new rail going to be using the ROW in the middle of I-4?


OK, I was looking closer to Union Station.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> My thinking is, if it is indeed going to be an elevated station, it would have been kind of nice if they could have placed it right atop the Tampa Union Station Yard, with pedestrian access from both the Union Station head house and Ybor City end, together with a TECO Trolley stop at the north end of the station.



I don't think there will be much demand for transfers between Amtrak and Brightline in Tampa, as the routes are more duplications rather than connections. Orlando might be the more logical point to create such a transfer station, but Brightline have (understandably) chosen not to persue that avenue. At least not for now although obviously the door is not yet shut on that possibility in some future phase. And of course a Jacksonville extension, if that ever gets built, would also offer opportunities.

Much more important than connecting to Amtrak would be to position the station in a location with plenty of potential sources of riders within walking distance, as well as useful onward transportation links. The location in Miami is pretty much picture-book perfect in that respect. I'm not sufficiently familiar with Tampa to say if the proposed location achieves that.


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## McIntyre2K7

Mailliw said:


> Interesting they have an option for cafe cars. Presumably if they order them it won't be until Tampa is active. Brightline West should definitely have cafe/*bar *cars.



If I'm not mistaken I read somewhere that the cafe/bar cars will be added once service to Orlando starts.


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## joelkfla

McIntyre2K7 said:


> If I'm not mistaken I read on an article that the cafe/bar cars will be added once service to Orlando starts.


A 3-hour trip is certainly long enough to enjoy lunch or a cocktail (or 2), but I think the order would have been activated by now if they wanted the cars in time for the planned start data of Orlando service at the end of 2022.


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## VentureForth

neroden said:


> After reviewing the most recent article and all of the videos from Roaming Railfan, I'm pretty sure the slow items are:
> (1) The bridges on the existing route where they are building a temporary bridge before replacing the bridge. Those temporary bridges are all started, but seem to be going pretty slowly. In several cases there are grade crossings which aren't being done until the bridge is done because the second track space is being used as the construction access road for the bridge; waiting to start the crossing work until the adjacent bridge is done adds to the final project completion time. Theoretically they should be able to begin service without these bridges being complete, but there would be rather long single-tracked sections which would not enable a full service schedule or full speeds. Financially, it still might make sense to introduce some service even if one or two of these bridges wasn't complete, if it started generating Orlando revenues earlier.
> (2) The overpass of 528/Beachline over the new ROW east of the I-55 cloverleaf, which is nothing more than some piles of dirt at this point -- and involves coordination with the expressway authorities. This is critical and they can't operate a single train to Orlando without it. (They can't do a partial opening north of West Palm Beach without going all the way to Orlando because none of the intermediate stations between WPB and Orlando are anything more than design concepts at this point, so it's absolutely necessary to complete the track to Orlando in order to add any service.) This elevation/relocation of 528 is not scheduled to open until mid-August 2021.
> 
> All the bridges on the new Orlando-Cocoa ROW (and the second tunnel, and the trench) look to be well on schedule to complete in mid-2021, except for that expressway overpass. On the existing line, the grade crossings, double tracking, and signals everywhere except the bridges look like they're well on schedule to complete in mid-2021 too. The maintenance facility is supposed to be ready to receive trains (though not complete) by September 2021.
> 
> If things go well, they could be open around May 2021; the critical path appears to run through that 528 elevation, if I'm not mistaken.


1) Yes - as jis mentioned previously, in Brevard County, the new bridges have been started, but in three months, I've seen little progress.
2) The I-95 overpass is much further along than you state. The pylons are in place across the highway as are the ramps up to them. I expect to see the beams installed fairly soon.

Honestly, I was sort of surprised that there was _less_ work along 528 than I would have expected by now. There's some land clearing and some grading complete, but except for about the first mile or so out of Cocoa, I don't see a lot ready for laying track yet. 2022 is going to be tight.


----------



## jis

@VentureForth, your description matches my assessment.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Brightline Announces It Is Considering Adding Service To Both Miami International Airport & FLL
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com


I'm actually slightly surprised by mention of MIA in this (at least on the presumption that it would involve "mainline" Brightline trains). FLL...I believe that I have been calling _that _one since at _least _the day the first train ran. The location is just too good to pass up. Any protests to the contrary aside, I suspect that Brightline will eventually add service to FLL to their mainline trains. My guess is that it'll take an airline interlining deal of some sort to push it over the edge.

On the cafe car option, I suspect that the addition of that may depend on traffic loads. On a theoretical 4-5 car train they can probably make do with snack/beverage carts. If the train gets extended to seven cars, they may opt for the cafe then. Orlando-Miami is three hours or so, which is probably a long enough trip to justify the cafe; it then becomes a matter of having the pax load to justify it (which four pax coaches probably doesn't quite reach).


----------



## Mailliw

They could also go with a cafe/coach car instead of a cafe lounge. Siemens sample floorplans for the Ventures show a car with half cafe half economy seating.


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## Anderson

Just as an aside, the line in Melbourne is still single track. Was that supposed to be double-tracked as part of this project?


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Just as an aside, the line in Melbourne is still single track. Was that supposed to be double-tracked as part of this project?


They are working on it both from the North and the South. It will get double tracked. In Melbourne the current primary attention is to bridges over waterways more than on tracks I think. Primary concern I think is Eu Gallie Creek and Crane Creek, and then a little South in Palm Bay is Turkey Creek, and further South at the border of Brevard and Indian River County is St. Sebastian River. All are significant bridge works.


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## adamj023

Brightline seems to be adding stations in good locations like Boca Raton, FL and others giving Florida a passenger rail network it was previously lacking. Between Sun Rail, Tri Rail, Amtrak and others there will be a more complete network of passenger rail which didn’t exist before. I remember when Tri Rail just came out in Florida and since then Sun Rail has emerged and Brightline with additional stations. Population growth in Florida is huge leading to more need for mass transit to supplement the roads especially as the pandemic subsidies. People are leaving states like NY in record numbers and yet there are plans for expansion of rail network there which makes no sense.

Brightline seems to be making progress on its Florida network and I believe it will go to Tampa and even Jacksonville and connect to other high speed networks as hopefully existing tracks north of Jacksonville can be made higher speed. I believe CSX owns these tracks now if I recall which is based in Jacksonville, FL.


----------



## VentureForth

adamj023 said:


> Brightline seems to be adding stations in good locations like Boca Raton, FL and others giving Florida a passenger rail network it was previously lacking. Between Sun Rail, Tri Rail, Amtrak and others there will be a more complete network of passenger rail which didn’t exist before. I remember when Tri Rail just came out in Florida and since then Sun Rail has emerged and Brightline with additional stations. Population growth in Florida is huge leading to more need for mass transit to supplement the roads especially as the pandemic subsidies. People are leaving states like NY in record numbers and yet there are plans for expansion of rail network there which makes no sense.
> 
> Brightline seems to be making progress on its Florida network and I believe it will go to Tampa and even Jacksonville and connect to other high speed networks as hopefully existing tracks north of Jacksonville can be made higher speed. I believe CSX owns these tracks now if I recall which is based in Jacksonville, FL.


I agree. I hope eventually there will be more than the planned stops, with BL offering express and local trains. IE: Add Melbourne, Sebastian, Vero, Stuart, Jupiter. Places like Sebastian and Jupiter are great for local State Parks, and Melbourne of course is where I am so I don't have to drive 30 minutes to Cocoa.


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## VentureForth

Why is Brightline still shut down? They have quite the compelling infographic on how the spread of COVID on their trains is mitigated. COVID_Brightline.pdf (gobrightline.com) I guess running at a reduced capacity would be too costly? Are they afraid there is no demand? Are they afraid of too much demand?


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> Why is Brightline still shut down? They have quite the compelling infographic on how the spread of COVID on their trains is mitigated. COVID_Brightline.pdf (gobrightline.com) I guess running at a reduced capacity would be too costly? Are they afraid there is no demand? Are they afraid of too much demand?


They are shut down because they do not have a PTC system installed and certified and this is after 31 December 2020. They are starting the testing of the brand spanking new I-ETMS integrated with intrusion detection at grade crossing etc. that they have had Wabtec install. They signed the contract sometime late last year/early this year after abandoning their originally planned eATC based PTC, and withdrawing their original PTC certification application from FRA. Now they are in the process of getting the new system certified. They expect to run service late this year between Miami and West Palm Beach. This service discontinuance would have happened anyway irrespective of COVID or not.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> They are shut down because they do not have a PTC system installed and certified and this is after 31 December 2020. They are starting the testing of the brand spanking new I-ETMS integrated with intrusion detection at grade crossing etc. that they have had Wabtec install. They signed the contract sometime late last year/early this year after abandoning their originally planned eATC based PTC, and withdrawing their original PTC certification application from FRA. Now they are in the process of getting the new system certified. They expect to run service late this year between Miami and West Palm Beach. This service discontinuance would have happened anyway irrespective of COVID or not.


That seems short sighted on someone's part. Without COVID, it would have sucked to have regular riders just told that they couldn't ride for nearly a year during upgrades.


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## Just-Thinking-51

VentureForth said:


> That seems short sighted on someone's part. Without COVID, it would have sucked to have regular riders just told that they couldn't ride for nearly a year during upgrades.





jis said:


> They signed the contract sometime late last year/early this year after *abandoning their originally planned eATC based PTC*, and withdrawing their original PTC certification application from FRA. Now they are in the process of getting the new system certified.



I think the wording from Jis about “*abandoning*” would be key to explain why there is no trains running. The COVID thing makes nice cover, however. One thinks only the railroad fans would understand the details of a PTC system, and the need for one to be certified.


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## west point

JIS: How is FEC operating if the PTC is having problems. Been too long since I was there especially south Florida.


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## jis

west point said:


> JIS: How is FEC operating if the PTC is having problems. Been too long since I was there especially south Florida.


They are operating below the number of trains per day threshold for requiring PTC. Based on that I believe they have an exemption since they do not carry any hazmat.


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## west point

JIS:: guess I thought that the rock trains would have put at least the south parts over the 5 RT limit


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## VentureForth

Just as an aside - I don't live close to the tracks, but I was out and about last night in Melbourne and got to watch an FEC train pass through downtown. The train ran smooth and fast with a full compliment of intermodal stackers. I was very impressed with the quality of the rail. When I was in Georgia, the CSX just didn't seem to be as 'refined'. Just a single observation...


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## jiml

VentureForth said:


> Just as an aside - I don't live close to the tracks, but I was out and about last night in Melbourne and got to watch an FEC train pass through downtown. The train ran smooth and fast with a full compliment of intermodal stackers. I was very impressed with the quality of the rail. When I was in Georgia, the CSX just didn't seem to be as 'refined'. Just a single observation...


In video of the FEC that I've seen online, their roadbed does seem to be in remarkable shape - looks almost like a perfect model railroad. Here's an example (with some explanatory notes regarding Brightline service):


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## jis

FECR has had immaculate tracks at least for the last ten or so years that I have seen them in this area (Brevard County).


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## AM_ROAD

My wife is from Melbourne so I am there often. However, I didn't notice until now that the FEC went back to their old paint livery.


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## chrsjrcj

AM_ROAD said:


> My wife is from Melbourne so I am there often. However, I didn't notice until now that the FEC went back to their old paint livery.



They've had the "Champion" livery for a few years now. Not sure how long it will last since they recently changed their logo and re-painted some of their locomotives with the new logo (which IMO...is not attractive at all)


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## crescent-zephyr

VentureForth said:


> The train ran smooth and fast with a full compliment of intermodal stackers. I was very impressed with the quality of the rail.



I’ve only been on trains in North America but the brightline equipment and railroad was by far the smoothest train I’ve ever been on. Was a very impressive ride.


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve only been on trains in North America but the brightline equipment and railroad was by far the smoothest train I’ve ever been on. Was a very impressive ride.


Yea, I've heard that as well. I would love that service, detail, and smoothness to come to Amtrak. 

However I will say, Amtrak trains are much more appealing on the exterior. I love the look of superliners, amfleets, etc


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## me_little_me

Cal said:


> Yea, I've heard that as well. I would love that service, detail, and smoothness to come to Amtrak.
> 
> However I will say, Amtrak trains are much more appealing on the exterior. I love the look of superliners, amfleets, etc


I think the Amtrak cars (except the new ones) look dull, dirty and worn out on the exterior.


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## neroden

VentureForth said:


> 1) Yes - as jis mentioned previously, in Brevard County, the new bridges have been started, but in three months, I've seen little progress.
> 2) The I-95 overpass is much further along than you state. The pylons are in place across the highway as are the ramps up to them. I expect to see the beams installed fairly soon.


So that's not the crossing I'm talking about. it took me a *really* long time to puzzle out the route of Brightline here. It's running along the south side of 528 from Orlando Airport. It crosses *over* I-95 (which is well underway), but then east of the cloverleaf it crosses *under* 528 to the *north side* (which has NOT made much progress). It's this crossing I'm talking about.

Then Brightline is on the north side of 528 when it crosses over Industry Road (well underway) and crosses back under 528 again near US 1 to reconnect to the FEC tracks (well underway).

I'm not entirely sure why it does this swerve to the north side of 528 but I guess it was to make for shallower curves or less acquisition of houses or something?

Take a look on Google Maps photos near SW Dakota Avenue -- you'll see where Brightline needs to cross under 528 to get to the north side. Documents explain that this is being done by raising the expressway and building a bridge for the expressway, putting Brightline at grade. The expressway has not been relocated onto the new alignment yet, or at least not last I checked.



> Honestly, I was sort of surprised that there was _less_ work along 528 than I would have expected by now. There's some land clearing and some grading complete, but except for about the first mile or so out of Cocoa, I don't see a lot ready for laying track yet. 2022 is going to be tight.



Civils are most of the work. If you've finished clearing and grading and putting in bridges and tunnels, track laying is fast.


----------



## jis

I drove to Orlando yesterday for some work. A substantial part of the right of way along SR528 is now ready or very close to ready, to receive track. So things are finally moving along well.

I will be traveling to Orlando again on the 19th, to Orlando Airport to be precise. So I will get another chance to get a closer look.


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## neroden

Tell me if you saw anything interesting on either that 528 undercrossing, or on the bridges on the existing line which I suspect are the critical path on the Gantt chart. I really do think that apart from that undercrossing, the line next to 528 will probably be done before the bridges on the existing Cocoa-WPB line.


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## VentureForth

neroden said:


> Tell me if you saw anything interesting on either that 528 undercrossing, or on the bridges on the existing line which I suspect are the critical path on the Gantt chart. I really do think that apart from that undercrossing, the line next to 528 will probably be done before the bridges on the existing Cocoa-WPB line.


Which poses an interesting question. They can start operating on single track, though the section between Cocoa and WPB will still be the old ROW. I don't know if there are enough passing sidings to start that up before finishing double track the whole way. But to your point, they probably could get the ROW between Cocoa and MCO ready before the double track is finished on the existing mainline. 

I see work being done on the Crane Creek bridge in Melbourne, but much of the doubling between the creek and a few blocks up haven't even been cleared or graded to support the new bridge yet.

This just in.....VentureForth just went on contract on a house in Cocoa. If everything goes well, I could be very close to the new Brevard County rail station when it opens!


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## Qapla

Florida authorities tell Brightline to lock down Orlando-Tampa passenger-train plan by mid-summer - Orlando Sentinel


----------



## joelkfla

Qapla said:


> Florida authorities tell Brightline to lock down Orlando-Tampa passenger-train plan by mid-summer - Orlando Sentinel


I didn't know that Brightline had to pay CFX & DOT for lost tolls due to train ridership. That could deter Brightline from carrying local passengers between MCO & WDW.


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## John Bredin

joelkfla said:


> I didn't know that Brightline had to pay CFX & DOT for lost tolls due to train ridership. That could deter Brightline from carrying local passengers between MCO & WDW.


Except for Brightline wanting to use CFX's right-of-way and so having to reach a financial arrangement with CFX, what is the basis for Brightline having to "compensate" Florida DOT for "lost" tolls?!*  

What if Amtrak began running more than one round-trip daily between Tampa and Orlando, would it have to "compensate" CFX or FDOT for "lost" tolls? And what is a "lost" toll? Is it presumed that every Brightline passenger between Tampa and Orlando is a lost toll? Every family or traveling party? 

If I choose to take the Hiawatha from Glenview to Milwaukee, did the Illinois Tollway incur a compensable loss of a toll because I didn't take the TriState Tollway? Or someone takes Amtrak from NYC or Newark to Philadelphia, is the New Jersey Turnpike owed for losing a toll? This sounds like an albatross being slung around Brightline's neck, based on a presumption that the roads are entitled to the traffic.

*Snarky quotation marks aimed at CFX & FDOT, not the poster or the _Orlando Sentinel_.


----------



## MARC Rider

joelkfla said:


> I didn't know that Brightline had to pay CFX & DOT for lost tolls due to train ridership. That could deter Brightline from carrying local passengers between MCO & WDW.


Frankly, I think the Highway departments should be compensating the rail operators for lost business due to improved highways.


----------



## jis

John Bredin said:


> Except for Brightline wanting to use CFX's right-of-way and so having to reach a financial arrangement with CFX, what is the basis for Brightline having to "compensate" Florida DOT for "lost" tolls?!*


None. It has to do with Brightline getting permission to lay their tracks on CFX governed FDOT land. It has to pay a fee to CFX and CFX and Brightline jointly deciding what it should be per passenger carried along the CFX segment. Brightline has to work with CFX when it wants to add additional origins and destinations to determine what the passenger fee should be.

Presumably the same principle will apply for trackage along SR417 Tollway.

As for what financial arrangements will be used for leasing space on I-4 median, it will probably follow the same principles used for leasing space on the portion of SR528 that is not under CFX but under FDOT (i.e. roughly east of the SR520 interchange). I am not sure what the details of that arrangement are, but AFAIK (unless it is covered by the CFX toll compensation) it is not a passenger volume based fee, but is probably some flat annual fee.

The reasoning behind all this goes as follows: SR528 and associated ROW development including stabilization of it across marshland, was funded using bonds that were collateralized by tolls. Now what amounts to additional "lanes" are being added to it in the form of a rail tracks, which will eat into the original tolls that were presumed to pay off the bonds. If these new non-toll paying lanes diverting toll paying traffic were to cause shortfall in bond payments the state would be obligated to pay such through general funds, while the financial advantage ensuing goes to a private company. This was not a condition that the taxpayers were presumed to agree to. Hence the toll compensation for use of land that was originally developed using bonds that were collateralized by income from said land improvement. It is as simple as that.

None of the other examples quoted above come even close to being similar to this situation.



> What if Amtrak began running more than one round-trip daily between Tampa and Orlando, would it have to "compensate" CFX or FDOT for "lost" tolls? And what is a "lost" toll? Is it presumed that every Brightline passenger between Tampa and Orlando is a lost toll? Every family or traveling party?


That question is almost moot since (a) there is very little toll (short segment of SR417 between CFRC and I-4) between Tampa and Orlando. (b) I am sure Amtrak will get to pay their salutations to the ROW owner CSX and CFRC (indirectly FDOT). CFX has nothing to do with the facilities used by Amtrak to run its trains between Tampa and Orlando.

But Brightline I am sure will have to make some land use lease payment for putting its tracks on FDOT land in the I-4 median. The state could choose to make it something small, but it is a lease of land.


----------



## Qapla

From the article above


> The corridor preferred by Brightline has come with multiple, overlapping issues. Those include the need for cooperation with Central Florida’s SunRail commuter system, for an agreement with the Central Florida Expressway Authority, *or CFX*, for use of space along its toll-road system, affirmation from the authority governing Orlando International Airport and approval from Orlando Utilities Commission for use of coal-train rail spur near the airport.
> 
> A privately owned and funded company, *Brightline must also agree to a method for compensating the state and the authority for lost toll revenues. *


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Well let’s dust off those traffic studies from greater Los Angles. How opening a light rail line did not decrease the number of vehicles on the road, just increases the mobility of people. IE: people were avoid travel due to the congestion of the roads. With the light rail, total number of trips increased while the traffic levels did not decrease.


----------



## me_little_me

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Well let’s dust off those traffic studies from greater Los Angles. How open a light rail line did not decrease the number of vehicles on the road, just increases the mobility of people. IE: people were avoid travel due to the congestion of the roads. With the light rail, total number of trips increased while the traffic levels did not decrease.


Or it reduced the probable INCREASE in congestion?


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## Just-Thinking-51

Maybe in Florida, but not in Los Angles.

Anyways the point is increasing the options for the people, does not decrease the number of vehicles on the roads. So no need to pay the toll roads any funds due to decrease in vehicle traffic.


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## snljamie0518

Where are they going to put the tracks in Disney Springs?


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## jis

snljamie0518 said:


> Where are they going to put the tracks in Disney Springs?


There will be a station somewhere in the vicinity of Disney Springs. They have not said exactly where.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Maybe in Florida, but not in Los Angles.
> 
> Anyways the point is increasing the options for the people, does not decrease the number of vehicles on the roads. So no need to pay the toll roads any funds due to decrease in vehicle traffic.


While that is interesting, it has little relevance to this discussion. AFAIR having sat through the hearings, no one ever claimed that there would be a decrease in traffic on the road. Part of the argument was that the presence of the railroad will reduce the projected increase in users of the toll road which was the basis of the bond issue used to build the ROW and the road, the ROW of which will also now be used by the railroad. Now one may believe it or not, but when a landlord supported by the government says it is so, and you need to use their land, you come to an understanding that is acceptable to all. 

This is even more so when you desperately need the support of the same government to issue tax free municipal bonds (in the face of steadfast opposition by a few counties ruled by the same party as the state government) in order to make the project feasible at all. We are actually pretty lucky that the whole thing did not get shut down in its track, in a manner of speaking.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thanks for the clarification. It just sounds like a way to kill a project by demanding a high payment for future loss. Which of course is a guess and nobody can prove it either way.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. It just sounds like a way to kill a project by demanding a high payment for future loss. Which of course is a guess and nobody can prove it either way.


There is no up front payment involved for the surcharge. It is a per ticket surcharge. It is less than a dollar surcharge per ticket on a ticket typically to be priced around $50 - $70 or so. Maybe as low as $35-$40 from Cocoa Rockledge, if and when that station is built and put into service.

AFAIR, there is a ROW land lease fee which is annual and is pretty much in line with such things in the area. So as far as I know there is no up front huge cost targeted towards killing the project. Remember Rick Scott and possibly DeSantis too owns significant private holdings among the chums at FECI. This project has sailed through with permitting even in spite of some stiff public opposition en route which would have delayed things a lot. I-95 through Martin County was delayed over a decade. Fortunately Martin County has folded on this one and jumped on board. Indian River County was the last holdout, which has finally thrown in the towel. But it was never opposed by the State. Indeed some would say that its skids were greased substantially by the State.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> We are actually pretty lucky that the whole thing did not get shut down in its track, in a manner of speaking.


I think the most relevant lesson from the Brightline project is that even when all the stars align _just right_ establishing new passenger rail service still struggles to overcome determined opposition and entrenched bureaucratic inertia. Outside the FEC there are few prospects and by the time everyone has taken a pound of flesh you're picking at bones.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> There will be a station somewhere in the vicinity of Disney Springs. They have not said exactly where.


I believe "Lime Parking Garage" was mentioned at one point, though that clearly wasn't a final decision.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> I believe "Lime Parking Garage" was mentioned at one point, though that clearly wasn't a final decision.


Yeah. I am frankly, waiting for the EIS. That usually clarifies and ties down a lot of things.


----------



## Chris I

jis said:


> Yeah. I am frankly, waiting for the EIS. That usually clarifies and ties down a lot of things.


It looks like that area would tie in well with existing ground transportation options at Disney Springs. Do we know if Disney is planning on extending either the Monorail or the Skyliner system to Disney Springs? It seems like an extension of the Epcot Monorail line along Buena Vista Dr would work. Alternatively, a new Skyliner line from the main transfer point at the Caribbean Beach Resort could hit Disney Springs in a straight shot, and even have a potential mid-station at Typhoon Lagoon.

I think it will be important to provide people with quality transit connections at Disney Springs, if that is going to be the Brightline meet point. Shuttle buses are not really ideal, and it would be really attractive to fly into Orlando and quickly transfer to your hotel without renting a car.









<p>Disney Skyliner</p>


The Disney Skyliner gondolas are a convenient way to travel between Epcot, Disney’s Hollywood Studios and other select locations at Walt Disney World Resort in Florida.




disneyworld.disney.go.com












Disney World Transportation Map [Interactive Guide to Navigate Disney]


The interactive Disney World Transportation Map shows you the best bus, boat, and monorail routes to and from the theme parks and hotels.




magicguides.com


----------



## joelkfla

Chris I said:


> It looks like that area would tie in well with existing ground transportation options at Disney Springs. Do we know if Disney is planning on extending either the Monorail or the Skyliner system to Disney Springs? It seems like an extension of the Epcot Monorail line along Buena Vista Dr would work. Alternatively, a new Skyliner line from the main transfer point at the Caribbean Beach Resort could hit Disney Springs in a straight shot, and even have a potential mid-station at Typhoon Lagoon.
> 
> I think it will be important to provide people with quality transit connections at Disney Springs, if that is going to be the Brightline meet point. Shuttle buses are not really ideal, and it would be really attractive to fly into Orlando and quickly transfer to your hotel without renting a car.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <p>Disney Skyliner</p>
> 
> 
> The Disney Skyliner gondolas are a convenient way to travel between Epcot, Disney’s Hollywood Studios and other select locations at Walt Disney World Resort in Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> disneyworld.disney.go.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Disney World Transportation Map [Interactive Guide to Navigate Disney]
> 
> 
> The interactive Disney World Transportation Map shows you the best bus, boat, and monorail routes to and from the theme parks and hotels.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> magicguides.com


Nothing has been announced, nor seriously hinted at.

There have been no serious rumors of monorail extensions for at least a decade. Monorails are expensive to build and no longer considered futuristic and sexy, and the current Disney Company is much more focused on bottom line than on showing off.

There _have _been rumors of future Skyliner lines, but they seem to be more wishful thinking than fact-based, and I haven't heard of any indication that Disney Springs is being considered. The current lines seemed to be doing their job well, until COVID restricted carrying capacity to one party per cabin.


----------



## west point

Brightline will tunnel under 528 in 2 weeks time
Brightline set to make history with box-jacking method - Railway Track and Structures (rtands.com)

Jacked Structures - Box Jacking


----------



## nullptr

Birghtline gave a presentation to the Central Florida Expressway Authority yesterday. You can see their slides starting on page 1145 of this packet: https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2021-03-11-Agenda-with-attachmentsv1-2.pdf

It shows their preferred route and gives a comparison between SR 417 and SR 528 on the way out of Orlando towards Disney World/Tampa. They claim 417 will be $1 billion versus $2.1 billion for 528.

I'm guessing a video will be available here at some point: https://www.cfxway.com/agency-information/agency-overview/administration/board-meeting-videos/


----------



## joelkfla

nullptr said:


> Birghtline gave a presentation to the Central Florida Expressway Authority yesterday. You can see their slides starting on page 1145 of this packet: https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2021-03-11-Agenda-with-attachmentsv1-2.pdf
> 
> It shows their preferred route and gives a comparison between SR 417 and SR 528 on the way out of Orlando towards Disney World/Tampa. They claim 417 will be $1 billion versus $2.1 billion for 528.
> 
> I'm guessing a video will be available here at some point: https://www.cfxway.com/agency-information/agency-overview/administration/board-meeting-videos/


Cool.

Some take-aways on the WDW/Tampa extension from the detailed maps in the presentation:

It would leave the SunRail ROW just south of Meadow Woods station, and cut west to the Turnpike, then join SR-417 at the Turnpike interchange.
The map shows the line just north of the 417. Whether that's the actual location, or shown that way just for legibility, I don't know.
Approach to Disney has not been nailed down. It's shown as anywhere between World Center Dr. on the north, and about halfway down to Osceola Pkwy. on the south.
The map seems to show the DS station as somewhere west of Buena Vista Dr.; i.e., the line not crossing BVD.
Potential Station Location in Tampa is in the general vicinity of Union Station, as previously discussed in this thread.
A station at the Meadow Woods SunRail stop in Orlando is "possible".
Anticipated construction start: Q2 2023
Anticipated revenue service first segment (including SunRail to Airport): Q3-Q4 2026
The full file is 90 MB. For those with slow internet, I copied just the Brightline slides to Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O64qOTv2n3MeaeWV47sWKEaU359eeqfb/view?usp=sharing


----------



## joelkfla

nullptr said:


> Birghtline gave a presentation to the Central Florida Expressway Authority yesterday. You can see their slides starting on page 1145 of this packet: https://www.cfxway.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2021-03-11-Agenda-with-attachmentsv1-2.pdf
> 
> It shows their preferred route and gives a comparison between SR 417 and SR 528 on the way out of Orlando towards Disney World/Tampa. They claim 417 will be $1 billion versus $2.1 billion for 528.
> 
> I'm guessing a video will be available here at some point: https://www.cfxway.com/agency-information/agency-overview/administration/board-meeting-videos/


Here's a direct link to the video record of the meeting: 


https://otv.ocfl.net/otv/CFX/CFX2021/CFEX031121/CFX031121.mp4


The Brightline presentation starts at 6:00.

A few more points stated by the Brightline VP:

The alignment along SR-417 is planned to run north of the highway.
The alignment from S4-417 to Disney is still being studied.
The alignment from Disney to US192 will be along I-4, but the exact placement is still being studied.
The alignment from US192 to Tampa will most likely be in the center of I-4, but it's not yet known how much can be at grade and how much will need to be elevated.
The Tampa station location has not been finalized, but will likely be between downtown & Ybor City.
He made it quite clear that Brightline is intercity rail with hourly frequency, and not intended for local transportation. Sounds like they have no interest in shuttling tourists between MCO & Disney.

One of the CFX board members is still pushing for the alignment along SR-528 with a stop at the Convention Center. Brightline didn't completely rule it out, but the VP said some outside funding would be required to make that route viable. Major portions of the route from the maintenance facility to I-4 would need to be elevated.

When asked for a guess at Tampa service, he said 28-29.


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> Nothing has been announced, nor seriously hinted at.
> 
> There have been no serious rumors of monorail extensions for at least a decade. Monorails are expensive to build and no longer considered futuristic and sexy, and the current Disney Company is much more focused on bottom line than on showing off.
> 
> There _have _been rumors of future Skyliner lines, but they seem to be more wishful thinking than fact-based, and I haven't heard of any indication that Disney Springs is being considered. The current lines seemed to be doing their job well, until COVID restricted carrying capacity to one party per cabin.



Disney's cost-focused management has for a few decades underestimated the degree to which people don't like diesel buses; that was something Walt always got right. Where-ever the Disney station is located, it would be an error on Disney's part to make it reliant on shuttle buses to get to the parks and resorts. I certainly hope they are planning some sort of "magical" transportation. Walt would have had Skyliners, trains, boats, moving walkways, and horse-drawn carriages radiating off in all directions.


----------



## MARC Rider

neroden said:


> Walt would have had Skyliners, trains, boats, moving walkways, and horse-drawn carriages radiating off in all directions.


With Walt in charge, Disney might not have been as much of a net moneymaker as it is now. It's not like the use of buses are keeping people from patronizing the place, and if stinky diesel fumes are a problem, tier IV diesel or LNG or Hybrid buses are a lot cheaper than building a monorail.


----------



## Qapla

MARC Rider said:


> tier IV diesel or LNG or Hybrid buses are a lot cheaper than building a monorail.



That may be so ... but, they are not as "magical" as a monorail or even horse drawn carriages


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> That may be so ... but, they are not as "magical" as a monorail or even horse drawn carriages


Of course they're not magical (except to emissions nerds like me), but the only "magical" thing Disney management really cares about is that the profits keep going up without end. 

When we took our daughter there, we stayed at the Wilderness Lodge, which was great, because you could take a boat ride to the Magic Kingdom, but you had to take buses everywhere else, and, you know, to people who don't have access to good public transportation, reliable, practical bus service is sort of magical. I appreciated the fact that after I parked the car at the Wilderness Lodge parking lot, I didn't need to use it at all for the next 4 days.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> With Walt in charge, Disney might not have been as much of a net moneymaker as it is now. It's not like the use of buses are keeping people from patronizing the place, and if stinky diesel fumes are a problem, tier IV diesel or LNG or Hybrid buses are a lot cheaper than building a monorail.



People like Walt Disney and Steve Jobs knew how to create an excellent product AND make money. 

They were leaders with a vision.

What we have now are managers with a calculator.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> People like Walt Disney and Steve Jobs knew how to create an excellent product AND make money.
> 
> They were leaders with a vision.
> 
> What we have now are managers with a calculator.


I believe Tim Cook is way more than just a "manager with a calculator" though.


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> People like Walt Disney and Steve Jobs knew how to create an excellent product AND make money.
> 
> They were leaders with a vision.
> 
> What we have now are managers with a calculator.


I don't know too much about Steve Jobs and Apple's earnings, but in terms of popularity among customers, Apple had been consistently Number Two worldwide, mostly because they insist on selling both the hardware and software together at a higher price than the competition. The last time I used an iPhone, it was OK, but it wasn't worth paying a premium over the price of the Android phone I normally use. And the price premium on laptop computers is such that I'm perfectly happy with using PC technology with either Windows of Linux.

As far as Walt Disney as a theme park impresario, remember that he was active in the theme park business in the 1950s and 1960s when business conditions were a lot different than they are now. For one thing, Disney parks had much less competition than they do now, for another, the times were an era of economic expansion and broad prosperity. There was a lot more latitude for leaders with "vision" to make mistakes and stay in business. It's not clear how well he would do as a businessman under today's conditions.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> I don't know too much about Steve Jobs and Apple's earnings, but in terms of popularity among customers, Apple had been consistently Number Two worldwide, mostly because they insist on selling both the hardware and software together at a higher price than the competition. The last time I used an iPhone, it was OK, but it wasn't worth paying a premium over the price of the Android phone I normally use. And the price premium on laptop computers is such that I'm perfectly happy with using PC technology with either Windows of Linux.
> 
> As far as Walt Disney as a theme park impresario, remember that he was active in the theme park business in the 1950s and 1960s when business conditions were a lot different than they are now. For one thing, Disney parks had much less competition than they do now, for another, the times were an era of economic expansion and broad prosperity. There was a lot more latitude for leaders with "vision" to make mistakes and stay in business. It's not clear how well he would do as a businessman under today's conditions.



Seeing as how you regularly suggest Amtrak trains shouldn’t have any food service or other amenities I’m not surprised you’re happy with an Android


----------



## jis

Looking at the route charts on Slide 11 the area of the wash seems to strongly suggest that there will be a stub end station at Disney accessible from both Tampa and OIA and there will be a bypass track for direct Tampa - OIA trains. Only a more detailed EIS will clarify what will actually happen.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> I believe Tim Cook is way more than just a "manager with a calculator" though.


There are a lot of Apple owners that might disagree, but I'm not one (an Apple owner). Forced upgrades due to battery obsolescence is not an Apple-only problem, but they may have invented it. Without Jobs they're not the same company and profit is definitely a motivation.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> I believe Tim Cook is way more than just a "manager with a calculator" though.



Yes and no. He certainly gets Apple better than Bob Chapek gets Disney I’ll give him that.


----------



## Qapla

I live in Florida (and have for nearly 60 years) and have not been to Disney since the early 1970's - and do not plan on going anytime soon ... I also do not use an iPhone.

To me, it makes no difference if/when there may be a WDW stop for Brightline. I would like to see them get the line finished to Tampa and then to Jacksonville - that would make it "useful" for me more than getting to WDW will.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

MARC Rider said:


> With Walt in charge, Disney might not have been as much of a net moneymaker as it is now. It's not like the use of buses are keeping people from patronizing the place, and if stinky diesel fumes are a problem, tier IV diesel or LNG or Hybrid buses are a lot cheaper than building a monorail.



From what I was told, Disney has mentioned CNG buses, but they don't want to pay for a fueling station for those type of buses. Buses using CNG fuel or hybrid buses are far more expensive then "clean diesel" buses and I use that term clean diesel loosely. Disney is basically doing whatever to save money at the moment, so I don't expect much investment in their bus fleet. I would hope they expand their monorail, but I do like to dream sometimes.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> I live in Florida (and have for nearly 60 years) and have not been to Disney since the early 1970's - and do not plan on going anytime soon ... I also do not use an iPhone.
> 
> To me, it makes no difference if/when there may be a WDW stop for Brightline. I would like to see them get the line finished to Tampa and then to Jacksonville - that would make it "useful" for me more than getting to WDW will.



That’s a shame. I love visiting Disney and have used Amtrak to visit both Disney World and Disneyland both times. Disney is one of the best “transportation museums” in the USA - especially the original Disneyland park. 

Steam trains, Steamboat, horse Drawn streetcar, Omni bus, the first monorail system in the Western Hemisphere... I miss it!


----------



## jis

Dunno. I live less than an hour from Disney World and get a Florida resident discount too, but the last time I went there was six years back, that too because a business meeting was hosted at one of the Disney hotels. I might again go there some day, but it is not one of my must do items.


----------



## jiml

I think Disney lost touch with their core clientele years ago. We used to go every year (yes, every and usually on Amtrak) when our kids were younger. The milestones for their decline will be different for everyone, but two that resonated for us: "lifetime" tickets that expire and construction "bricks" for Epcot that came with passes not honored without an argument and then at half-value. It used to be a great place to visit; now just another money-grubbing theme park. Don't get me started on Universal!


----------



## jis

When Epcot was originally built and inaugurated I had a free pass to Epcot as a Bell Labs employee, and could also bypass all the lines. Now that was a treat.


----------



## MARC Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seeing as how you regularly suggest Amtrak trains shouldn’t have any food service or other amenities I’m not surprised you’re happy with an Android


...and just as most device users in the world seem to be happy with an Android, so, to, most rail passengers in the world are OK without having to have a culinary experience in addition to getting where they need to go.  

Anyway, I did have the opportunity to try an iPhone. It was OK, but the experience was not much different from the Android phone I usually use.


----------



## MARC Rider

Caesar La Rock said:


> I use that term clean diesel loosely.



Having spent some time on the track testing 18-wheelers from Tier I 1998 models to Tier IV 2015 model year trucks, I can say that the Tier IV trucks are not at all smoky and stinky in the way that we all expect diesel engines to be.  Of course, being diesels and burning fossil fuels, they are not exactly a poster child for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, unless perhaps they use B100 biodiesel, which I don't think anybody does.


----------



## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> Having spent some time on the track testing 18-wheelers from Tier I 1998 models to Tier IV 2015 model year trucks, I can say that the Tier IV trucks are not at all smoky and stinky in the way that we all expect diesel engines to be.  Of course, being diesels and burning fossil fuels, they are not exactly a poster child for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, unless perhaps they use B100 biodiesel, which I don't think anybody does.


Disney buses have been using a biodiesel blend for many years. I don't know what the ratio is of bio to diesel.

In an early trial, the bio came from waste frying oil. The refueling station smelled like a McDonald's.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Looking at the route charts on Slide 11 the area of the wash seems to strongly suggest that there will be a stub end station at Disney accessible from both Tampa and OIA and there will be a bypass track for direct Tampa - OIA trains. Only a more detailed EIS will clarify what will actually happen.


I don't know about a bypass track, but a stub-end station is likely. IIRC the concept art showed that. The Brightline trainsets have engines at both ends and fixed 50/50 seating, so they can easily pull into WDW from the airport, and reverse out on to Tampa.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> I don't know about a bypass track, but a stub-end station is likely. IIRC the concept art showed that. The Brightline trainsets have engines at both ends and fixed 50/50 seating, so they can easily pull into WDW from the airport, and reverse out on to Tampa.


Brightline always planned to have trains with engines at both ends. That has nothing to do with WDW. That is the way it has been from the beginning. That is what the Miami - WPB service was and will be again later this year.


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> Brightline always planned to have trains with engines at both ends. That has nothing to do with WDW. That is the way it has been from the beginning. That is what the Miami - WPB service was and will be again later this year.


A concept that makes sense a lot of places. VIA has at least two corridor trains that have short turnarounds at end-points where this is in action, and on Amtrak look no further than Michigan. (This is specific to two locomotives, as opposed to cab-cars and NPCU's.)


----------



## jis

jiml said:


> A concept that makes sense a lot of places. VIA has at least two corridor trains that have short turnarounds at end-points where this is in action, and on Amtrak look no further than Michigan. (This is specific to two locomotives, as opposed to cab-cars and NPCU's.)


And of course on the NEC there are the Acelas, and Keystones and the Springfield service as far as Amtrak goes.

In the northeast and in Florida all commuter agencies use push-pull when they are not using outright EMUs. One finds mostly cab car at one end push-pull, while there are cases of locomotives at both ends too (e.g. LIRR double length train Montauk Service).


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> I live in Florida (and have for nearly 60 years) and have not been to Disney since the early 1970's - and do not plan on going anytime soon ... I also do not use an iPhone.
> 
> To me, it makes no difference if/when there may be a WDW stop for Brightline. I would like to see them get the line finished to Tampa and then to Jacksonville - that would make it "useful" for me more than getting to WDW will.



I’ve already used Brightline to get to Disney World. Just had to transfer to the Silver Star and then get an Uber from Kissimmee lol.


----------



## Qapla

There's some good pizza and BBQ at the Kissimmee stop


----------



## Bob Dylan

Qapla said:


> There's some good pizza and BBQ at the Kissimmee stop


Good Bar-B-Q and Florida dont belong in the same sentence!


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Brightline always planned to have trains with engines at both ends. That has nothing to do with WDW. That is the way it has been from the beginning. That is what the Miami - WPB service was and will be again later this year.


I wasn't saying WDW is the reason for two engines. I was saying that because they have 2 engines, a stub end station is not a problem.


----------



## joelkfla

Qapla said:


> There's some good pizza and BBQ at the Kissimmee stop


I was wondering about that. I'd noticed a couple of favorable Yelp entries within a block or 2 of the station.


----------



## Qapla

Bob Dylan said:


> Good Bar-B-Q and Florida don't belong in the same sentence!



This coming from a state that thinks it's wrong to put beans in chili 



joelkfla said:


> I was wondering about that. I'd noticed a couple of favorable Yelp entries within a block or 2 of the station.



Yes, there are a couple places a short walk from the station


----------



## Bob Dylan

Qapla said:


> This coming from a state that thinks it's wrong to put beans in chili
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there are a couple places a short walk from the station


Beans in Chili is a Sacrilege!


----------



## neroden

crescent-zephyr said:


> That’s a shame. I love visiting Disney and have used Amtrak to visit both Disney World and Disneyland both times. Disney is one of the best “transportation museums” in the USA - especially the original Disneyland park.
> 
> Steam trains, Steamboat, horse Drawn streetcar, Omni bus, the first monorail system in the Western Hemisphere... I miss it!


This is one of the only two reasons I liked Disneyland -- the way it was basically a museum or showcase of transportation. The other was the silent fireworks shows (I like fireworks; I do not like loud bangs). I suppose many people have gone there for other reasons, but Walt himself was basically building a very large model railway and letting other people play with it, and that, I find attractive.


----------



## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> Good Bar-B-Q and Florida dont belong in the same sentence!


I agree, but some Floridians may not:


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> I agree, but some Floridians may not:
> 
> View attachment 21187
> View attachment 21188


Tastes like Chicken! 

Never have seen a Gator Grilled like this, most of my Gator eating had been in Louisiana. Interesting.


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> This coming from a state that thinks it's wrong to put beans in chili


When I was growing up, Chili always had the beans included. 
Then I traveled to a certain state where the beans were served on the side, and I found I really preferred it.


----------



## Qapla

I have tried it both ways - I prefer the beans in the chili


----------



## VentureForth

I like beans in my meal-chili, but not in my hot dog chili. And not to be confused with chiles which are peppers popular in New Mexico. Red or Green? The NM state question.


----------



## jis

So will they be serving Chili with or without beans on the Brightline Orlando service?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Qapla said:


> I have tried it both ways - I prefer the beans in the chili


Beans in Chili? String him up!!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

VentureForth said:


> I like beans in my meal-chili, but not in my hot dog chili. And not to be confused with chiles which are peppers popular in New Mexico. Red or Green? The NM state question.


Agree with the Hatch Chiles from NM, we have a Special Hatch Month here in Texas where they feature them in lots of different types of food!


----------



## jis

Brightline to run commuter service in Miami (Miami's North East Corridor from Miami Central to Aventura), possibly under a separate subsidiary with different branding and different rolling stock from the ones to be used for service to Orlando.









After $345 million buildout, Brightline to run new intercity rail


As heralded by a 2019 decision by Miami-Dade commissioners to pay $76 million for a Brightline station near Aventura Mall, county transportation decision-makers last week endorsed the for-profit inter-city rail company’s trains as the preferred




www.miamitodaynews.com


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> Agree with the Hatch Chiles from NM, we have a Special Hatch Month here in Texas where they feature them in lots of different types of food!


Texas should not even be allowed to have Hatch chiles! Let them have their own chili.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> So will they be serving Chili with or without beans on the Brightline Orlando service?


With in lower class. Without in upper class.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

jis said:


> Brightline to run commuter service in Miami (Miami's North East Corridor from Miami Central to Aventura), possibly under a separate subsidiary with different branding and different rolling stock from the ones to be used for service to Orlando.



Add in a new name too “North East Corridor” is taken.

That the two comments post already show a need for better information management from this project/idea.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Add in a new name too “North East Corridor” is taken.


Unlikely to change. Floridians have never cared much about what happens outside Florida.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Brightline to run commuter service in Miami (Miami's North East Corridor from Miami Central to Aventura), possibly under a separate subsidiary with different branding and different rolling stock from the ones to be used for service to Orlando.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After $345 million buildout, Brightline to run new intercity rail
> 
> 
> As heralded by a 2019 decision by Miami-Dade commissioners to pay $76 million for a Brightline station near Aventura Mall, county transportation decision-makers last week endorsed the for-profit inter-city rail company’s trains as the preferred
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.miamitodaynews.com


Got me confused...I thought that they recently were building or had built connections for Tri-Rail to use the FEC tracks as an alternate route to WPB...
So soon there will be four rail operators (counting Amtrak) running north out of Miami?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> Got me confused...I thought that they recently were building or had built connections for Tri-Rail to use the FEC tracks as an alternate route to WPB...
> So soon there will be four rail operators (counting Amtrak) running north out of Miami?


Tri-Rail connection is to Tri-Rail service on ex-CSX. The North East Corridor Commuter Service is on the FECR to be operated by a Brightline subsidiary apparently.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jiml said:


> I think Disney lost touch with their core clientele years ago. [...] Don't get me started on Universal!


Universal and Six Flags have their own issues but at least the Fastpass cards work on more than three rides per day. If Disney sold an Unlimited Fastpass for all but the newest rides I'd probably give it another try.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Tri-Rail connection is to Tri-Rail service on ex-CSX. The North East Corridor Commuter Service is on the FECR to be operated by a Brightline subsidiary apparently.


So where is Tri-Rail going on FEC? Up towards Jupiter?


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> So where is Tri-Rail going on FEC? Up towards Jupiter?


No. Currently half of Tri-Rails service on its ex-CSX line will terminate at the Airport and the other half at Miami Central.

Brightline subsidiary will operate the Miami Central - Aventura Commuter Service, perhaps even extending to Fort Lauderdale. Rolling Stock YTBD.

Some day Tri-Rail might get to extend its service from WPB to Jupiter using the new (already in service) crossover between Tri-Rail and FECR between WPB and Mangonia Park.

Also some day some of the Brightline service may cross over to terminate at the Airport MIC. That will require the construction of a new connector on the southeast quadrant of Iris and will involve some property condemnation.


----------



## nullptr

I found myself playing that fun game of speculating what "different rolling stock" meant. Ben Porritt of Brightline gave a talk at the High-Speed Rail Alliance's lunch series, and apparently that probably just means tri-rail rolling stock.


The whole talk is interesting but one other thing that was new to me at least is that they are in talks with Broward county for a similar commuter rail service to the one they negotiated with Miami-Dade.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> No. Currently half of Tri-Rails service on its ex-CSX line will terminate at the Airport and the other half at Miami Central.
> 
> Brightline subsidiary will operate the Miami Central - Aventura Commuter Service, perhaps even extending to Fort Lauderdale. Rolling Stock YTBD.
> 
> Some day Tri-Rail might get to extend its service from WPB to Jupiter using the new (already in service) crossover between Tri-Rail and FECR between WPB and Mangonia Park.
> 
> Also some day some of the Brightline service may cross over to terminate at the Airport MIC. That will require the construction of a new connector on the southeast quadrant of Iris and will involve some property condemnation.


Okay, I think I got it now...the Tri-Rail on FEC, will be on the south end (for now)...just to get to Miami Central, right?


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## blueman271

railiner said:


> Okay, I think I got it now...the Tri-Rail on FEC, will be on the south end (for now)...just to get to Miami Central, right?


Correct. If you look at the current Tri-Rail route map, trains that go to MiamiCentral will leave the CSX tracks south of the Metrorail Transfer and head directly to MiamiCentral. Trains headed to the Airport will continue along the original route.


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## railiner

Any chance Tri-Rail would ever attempt to extend south to Homestead?


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## Just-Thinking-51

railiner said:


> Any chance Tri-Rail would ever attempt to extend south to Homestead?



I was hoping the Florida crew would speak up. Your the first person that I have ever heard speak about Homestead. So, no plans to extend south. Best my knowledge there use to be tracks heading to Key West, but not sure any of the ROW still exists. No train service south of Miami since steam train ran. Feel free to correct me.

It could be done, but I thinking it a start from scratch thing. No bike path to convert, no old railroad tracks to rebuild, no ROW to reclaim from the trees/swamp. Lots of money needed.


----------



## railiner

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I was hoping the Florida crew would speak up. Your the first person that I have ever heard speak about Homestead. So, no plans to extend south. Best my knowledge there use to be tracks heading to Key West, but not sure any of the ROW still exists. No train service south of Miami since steam train ran. Feel free to correct me.
> 
> It could be done, but I thinking it a start from scratch thing. No bike path to convert, no old railroad tracks to rebuild, no ROW to reclaim from the trees/swamp. Lots of money needed.


There still is a freight line down as far as Homestead, if I'm reading the map correctly, although it might be a 'ten mph' type track....


https://fdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Viewer/index.html?appid=7a6607e0da27427b80425880107d3586


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## blueman271

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I was hoping the Florida crew would speak up. Your the first person that I have ever heard speak about Homestead. So, no plans to extend south. Best my knowledge there use to be tracks heading to Key West, but not sure any of the ROW still exists. No train service south of Miami since steam train ran. Feel free to correct me.
> 
> It could be done, but I thinking it a start from scratch thing. No bike path to convert, no old railroad tracks to rebuild, no ROW to reclaim from the trees/swamp. Lots of money needed.


Yes Key West used to be served by rail. However the Labor Day Hurricane of 1935 destroyed the railroad. FEC sold the right of way to the state and the state used what infrastructure remained to build the Overseas Highway, which still exists today.

There are tracks to Homestead, which if memory serves branch off the CSX line just north of the airport station, run parallel to the southern edge of the airport and eventually turn south. I have no idea who owns them, what they are used for, or what condition they are in. My memory is from the last time I lived there which was 2003.

Edited because I can’t spell.


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## railiner

The map shows it as the Homestead Sub of CSX. I suppose the original FEC line down to Homestead was paved or built over...


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## Palmetto

railiner said:


> The map shows it as the Homestead Sub of CSX. I suppose the original FEC line down to Homestead was paved or built over...


 The Southern most rail in the USA IIRC. There was a plan several years ago to put commuter rail in on the current busway that goes down to Homestead. The cost scared folks off--as usual--and a BRT system is going to be installed, BUT stations will be set up for a possible future conversion to heavy rail.

The Homestead Sub actually passes by MIA, and runs along its south side. At one time, there was also a plan--again quashed--to run commuter rail trains down to the Kendall Section on it.


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## railiner

Palmetto said:


> The Southern most rail in the USA IIRC. There was a plan several years ago to put commuter rail in on the current busway that goes down to Homestead. The cost scared folks off--as usual--and a BRT system is going to be installed, BUT stations will be set up for a possible future conversion to heavy rail.
> 
> The Homestead Sub actually passes by MIA, and runs along its south side. At one time, there was also a plan--again quashed--to run commuter rail trains down to the Kendall Section on it.


I would imagine that the area has built up some in recent years, perhaps enough to take another look at that extension cost/benefit? And it seems that CSX wants to get out of that part of FL anyway, and might be happy to get rid of that isolated section...


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## blueman271

Palmetto said:


> The Southern most rail in the USA IIRC. There was a plan several years ago to put commuter rail in on the current busway that goes down to Homestead. The cost scared folks off--as usual--and a BRT system is going to be installed, BUT stations will be set up for a possible future conversion to heavy rail.
> 
> The Homestead Sub actually passes by MIA, and runs along its south side. At one time, there was also a plan--again quashed--to run commuter rail trains down to the Kendall Section on it.


There have been many plans over the years. Dade County passed a half-cent sales tax increase in 2002 that was billed as the People’s Transportation Plan. It was supposed to fund a whole bunch of stuff, including a full build out of the Metrorail system (which would have converted the busway to heavy rail). For any number of reasons most of the projects were cancelled. The only three things that actually happened were extending Metrorail to the airport (which included roughly three miles of track and one new station), making Metromover free (it used to cost .25 cents a ride), and briefly running 24 hour Metrorail service (this lasted less than a year and may have only lasted 6 months, I’m a little foggy about the exact length).
As far as building more commuter rail, or sending light rail or monorail from the mainland to the beach, those are all ideas that have been floating around as long as I can remember and I’m 35. I think Dan Marino has a better chance of winning a Super Bowl than any of those things being funded and built by a local or county government in South Florida.


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## Qapla

This site Jack Ferguson - YouTube has some interesting videos about the tunnel "box jacking" that is being done on the Brightline construction.


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## jis

railiner said:


> I would imagine that the area has built up some in recent years, perhaps enough to take another look at that extension cost/benefit? And it seems that CSX wants to get out of that part of FL anyway, and might be happy to get rid of that isolated section...



The Beach Corridor related information can be found at:






Smart Plan - Beach Corridor


The Beach Corridor is one of the six rapid transit corridors of the Strategic Miami Area Rapid Transit (SMART) Plan. The Beach Corridor runs from the Design District/Midtown Miami and Downtown Miami to the Miami Beach Convention Center area.



www.miamidade.gov





Nobody would ever blame FDOT or Miami-Dade TPO for being good at maintaining consistency of their info on their web pages. While the front page says Monorail, the TPO resolution says People Mover. So no one can tell for sure, but presumably an adopted resolution holds more weight than random text on a web page. But whatever it is it will be DBOM contract and it is mostly about the causeway. Along the beach it will be a busway.

The South Dade Transitway and Metrorail South of Miami Central Brightline station is along the old FEC ROW. I am not sure which technology they will actually use on the transitway, but most likely it will be rubber tyred.

The information on the transitway can be found at:






Smart Plan - South Dade TransitWay Corridor


The South Dade TransitWay Corridor (South Corridor) is one of the six rapid transit corridors of the Strategic Miami Area Rapid Transit (SMART) Plan. The corridor runs 20 miles in length and connects numerous municipalities which represent some of the fastest growing communities in Miami-Dade...



www.miamidade.gov





Meanwhile the Mayor of Miami thinks that Elon Musk will build his tunnels all around Miami for cheap. The level of incompetence in the whole exercise is high, with everyone trying to impress each other and hopefully others, with maximal use of latest buzzwords with remarkably low awareness of what any of it means, and with low concern for whether anything usable ever gets built or not. Maybe even they are convinced that the whole thing will sink under the Ocean waves before anyone will hold them accountable, even though that is a mistaken notion too.


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## MikefromCrete

I thought CSX offered its Homestead branch for sale to some sort of Florida governmental unit. I don't think the governmental unit accepted the offer.


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## jis

MikefromCrete said:


> I thought CSX offered its Homestead branch for sale to some sort of Florida governmental unit. I don't think the governmental unit accepted the offer.


They offered it for sale in general. There were no takers. Brightline considered it for a moment and then passed on it too. I don't know exactly what the terms were. The County could not come with the funds and FDOT was AWOL.


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## jiml

Sidebar question for the historians: Was there ever passenger service on this branch or anywhere south of Miami once the FEC was truncated?


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## west point

Last time in Miami the FEC and CSX interchanged just south of the airport. The FEC once had a freight track from that location directly south to join the FEC Passenger track near Dadeland. All that trackage south of the airport abandoned to Homestead and south by FEC. FEC and SAL had a connection at Homestead as well.


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## neroden

Roaming Railfan finally did a video which explains what's going on in the *other* place where Brightline will pass under the 528 -- the one where they're moving the roadway. Still looks like this is one of the least-complete sections of the project, but the bridges on the existing FEC line still seem to be further behind.


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## VentureForth

railiner said:


> The map shows it as the Homestead Sub of CSX. I suppose the original FEC line down to Homestead was paved or built over...


Wish they could run Brightline all the way down the legacy FEC ROW through Homestead all the way to Key West!! Darn Labor Day Hurricane of 1935....


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## Qapla

Here are the newest videos showing the progress/completion of the tunnel jacking


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## Palmland

When we lived in FL in the 90’s we had a $99 residence annual pass and used it a lot. Prices and crowds (not to mention our age) have taken it out of our comfort zone.

But when we go, riding the train and steamboat are always enjoyable. I also like their ferry and boat services. We may return more in the future with our grandkids but I do believe they have lost some of their outstanding customer service.

When we first went in 1980 a real electric streetcar operated and I believe it went to the campground. Guess the streets got too crowded for it. What really annoys me is paying for parking with the exorbitant park fees. That should be another incentive to use Sunrail or Brightline.


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## joelkfla

Palmland said:


> When we lived in FL in the 90’s we had a $99 residence annual pass and used it a lot. Prices and crowds (not to mention our age) have taken it out of our comfort zone.
> 
> But when we go, riding the train and steamboat are always enjoyable. I also like their ferry and boat services. We may return more in the future with our grandkids but I do believe they have lost some of their outstanding customer service.
> 
> When we first went in 1980 a real electric streetcar operated and I believe it went to the campground. Guess the streets got too crowded for it. What really annoys me is paying for parking with the exorbitant park fees. That should be another incentive to use Sunrail or Brightline.


Talking about Disney:

I've never heard of a trolley, but there is one at California Adventure at Disneyland CA. There was, however, a steam train that circulated through the campground.

If you return, in addition to the watercraft & monorail, you'll have the Skyliner aerial gondola to ride between Epcot & Hollywood Studios.

You're opinion on the decline of Disney's customer focus is widely shared.


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## Qapla

This was just posted an hour ago - 
*Brightline Cocoa Tunnel Construction All Ramps Are Open 4 7 21*


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## joelkfla

I just watched Brightline's status update to to the CFXway board on the video of the 4/8 meeting.

I'm feeling kind of suspicious about our wonderful Gov. DeSantis' appointee to the board. It seems like he may be trying to throw a monkey wrench into Brightline meeting the state's July 31 deadline for finalizing ROW alignment agreements. First it was insisting on the northern alignment; now he's refusing to go along with deferring the toll diversion study until after COVID quiets down.


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## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> You're opinion on the decline of Disney's customer focus is widely shared.


I worked at Tokyo Disneyland for 5 years and WDW for another 3 just out of college. This was back in the late 90's. Even then, I thought that WDW's customer service was not as impeccable as Disneyland or Tokyo Disneyland. Orlando always seemed very "corporate" to me. It really started when Disney stopped using their own food services to provide cast member dining rooms. Then they started outsourcing EVERYTHING - from the Empress Lily to just about everything at Coronado Springs. I worked in Guest Relations for half my time there. A few of us really did care.

I don't recognize the place any more. It's so stinkin' huge and still so popular that it's next to impossible to truly enjoy. I really loved working there, loved living near it, and loved being part of the cast. Who knows? Now that I'm living in Melbourne, I can retire driving their busses around. But why bother? Employee benefits are nearly gone. We used to have great Christmas gifts, great guest pass-in benefits (I mean, if you could go to Disney for free, you still can't get out for free). 

So I say all that to say this - even at my time there, with SO many college kids working who didn't care, and with the aforementioned corporate mindset, it's not surprising that the magic is being slowly eroded away while the cash grab is at an all time high.


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## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> I don't recognize the place any more. It's so stinkin' huge and still so popular that it's next to impossible to truly enjoy. I really loved working there, loved living near it, and loved being part of the cast. Who knows? Now that I'm living in Melbourne, I can retire driving their busses around. But why bother? Employee benefits are nearly gone. We used to have great Christmas gifts, great guest pass-in benefits (I mean, if you could go to Disney for free, you still can't get out for free).


I joined the cast in 2005. I think I got one nice Christmas gift the 1st year - not fancy nor expensive, but nice. After that, it was just a cheezy tree ornament every year. And yes, cast member admission privileges and preview opportunites steadily eroded year after year.


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## jis

joelkfla said:


> I just watched Brightline's status update to to the CFXway board on the video of the 4/8 meeting.
> 
> I'm feeling kind of suspicious about our wonderful Gov. DeSantis' appointee to the board. It seems like he may be trying to throw a monkey wrench into Brightline meeting the state's July 31 deadline for finalizing ROW alignment agreements. First it was insisting on the northern alignment; now he's refusing to go along with deferring the toll diversion study until after COVID quiets down.


If it is indeed DeSantis' guy my guess is that there is a background negotiation taking place on what the shakedown amount is that has to be paid to this gang to get their approval. Once that is agreed upon and settled, things should sail along smoothly


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## joelkfla

Interesting tour of Brightline's heavy maintenance facility construction site:


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## jis

I had the opportunity the drive down Babcock to take my car in for maintenance at Toyota. Looks like the second track has now arrived from the South at Babcock Street crossing in Melbourne FL, except for the bridge rebuilds involved in Indian River and Brevard Counties of course.

At Babcock, they have to move the massive crossing warning light and gate structure and also install four quadrant gates, which will take a bit of time I suppose. They were bringing in concrete ties by trucks and dropping them on the north side of Babcock towards Sarno Rd. (the next crossing)


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## nullptr

This might have been obvious to people more familiar with the area, but I didn't realize Universal Orlando Resort is one of the groups pushing for Brightline to go through the I drive corridor. https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/04/09/universal-orlando-brightline-i-drive-route.html

Their lobbying could be part of the hangup with the CFE board, but their comments in the article come off as bit disingenuous to me, is it really the "community" they are concerned about, or Universal Orlando...


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## jis

I am sure Universal Orlando could fund the additional billion Dollars and have it go by Universal Orlando. The thing will involve major private property acquisition and the entire thing will have to be built elevated. They are just trying to get someone else to pay for their profits.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Which is how Disney is trying to do it too.

Use other people money, but be sure to pay yourself first.


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## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Which is how Disney is trying to do it too.
> 
> Use other people money, but be sure to pay yourself first.


It would be interesting to see what the deal between Disney and Brightline looks like. Of course, the fact that Brightline intended tog et to I-4 via the 417 Corridor anyway makes a slight detour to Disney a much less onerous proposition than trying to convince them to go via the route that Rick Scott rejected money for in the first round of Orlando Tampa HSR saga.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Tired of how the world work. Call it a tribute, a bribe, or a non-competition agreement. It all the same.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> It would be interesting to see what the deal between Disney and Brightline looks like. Of course, the fact that Brightline intended tog et to I-4 via the 417 Corridor anyway makes a slight detour to Disney a much less onerous proposition than trying to convince them to go via the route that Rick Scott rejected money for in the first round of Orlando Tampa HSR saga.


I'm not sure there's anything nefarious about it, or even that any money is changing hands. Increasing visitation from So. FL is naturally beneficial to both companies.


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## jis

In Melbourne FL, I went by the Crane Creek Bridge construction site. The high level structure is just for staging construction equipment. The actual new bridge structure is between it and the original bridge. All the piers are in place. That is what will carry the new tracks I guess. Not clear to me whether it is a single track bridge augmenting the existing track or there will be additional cross beams over each pier supporting a double track superstructure. Should become obvious in a bit




Construction materials staged on the high level structure.




The concrete piers for the new bridge.

At Eu Gallie Creek they may be doing something similar eventually. The construction there is lagging this one a bit as it would appear.

Now to go and check out what is going on at Sebastian River down south. That is a much longer trestle. I have to go to a family get together in Sebastian this weekend anyway, so will have a chance to check it out without doing a trip just for that.


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## VentureForth

That still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why not start construction replacing the long abandoned second track trestle that already meets the alignment? Maybe the original alignment isn't recoverable...

I know there are smarter people than me planning all this. Just curious to learn.


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## jis

They had said earlier on that they were going to "replace" this trestle, which might mean that after they have buikt the one track new trestle, they will tear down the old trestle and build a second one track new trestle in its place. I am just speculating. I have no special inside knowledge.


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## Brian_tampa

I remember reading somewhere that the current double track bridges would be replaced with 2 single track bridge structures. The temporary trestle is for the crane to remove the existing structure and install the new bridge components. I am not sure if they will build a second temporary construction trestle on the opposite side once the first new bridge is in place. I can't see how they could build the second bridge opposite of the new bridge (and existing construction trestle) without significant disruption to train operations.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> I remember reading somewhere that the current double track bridges would be replaced with 2 single track bridge structures. The temporary trestle is for the crane to remove the existing structure and install the new bridge components. I am not sure if they will build a second temporary construction trestle on the opposite side once the first new bridge is in place. I can't see how they could build the second bridge opposite of the new bridge (and existing construction trestle) without significant disruption to train operations.


I think this single temporary trestle will serve both new trestles, and dismantling of the existing bridge which is on the other side of the first new trestle, but still pretty close by and within easy reach of a crane anchored in to the staging temporary trestle.

There are no more than two or three trains a day through there at present, mostly at night too. I can normally hear their distant horn which they blow for the Palm Bay Road, Port Malabar Road and Malabar Road crossings.


----------



## west point

This poster suspects that the bridges need replacing for several reasons. 
1. The FEC was built mainly as a passenger carrier with light weight trains and the bridges need replacing for the heavier freights that have been on the rails for many years.
2. Brightline will travel at a much higher speed and the bridge(s) need to be able to handle a full emergency braking on the bridge. 
3. Bridge(s) may be at or near the end of their service life. 
4. Clearances may be increased above mean high water to allow for any climate caused higher tides ?
5. maybe give some pleasure boats more clearance to keep populaces happier with more trains ?


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## cirdan

jis said:


> I think this single temporary trestle will serve both new trestles, and dismantling of the existing bridge which is on the other side of the first new trestle, but still pretty close by and within easy reach of a crane anchored in to the staging temporary trestle.



... although that would mean lifting heavy stuff over an active rail line?


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## VentureForth

Makes a little more sense now. I see the original trestle is technically a single unit, so they can't remove/rebuild "half" of it at a time. I'm surprised this thing still stands.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> ... although that would mean lifting heavy stuff over an active rail line?


There are only three or four trains a day. There will be long stretches of inactivity to schedule the heavy lifting in.

AFAICT only heavy stuff that will be lifted across the new bridge are the new girder beams which are staged on the temporary trestle. The old bridge will be dismantled and pieces lowered onto barges to carry away for scrapping.

If the new pillars are any indication I don’t believe there will be any change in the level at which the tracks will be. There may be marginally greater clearance under the bridge due to the use of more modern thinner girder beams. There is very little leisure boat traffic west of the bridge. All of it pretty much stops at the Melbourne Yacht Club Marina east of the the Rt. 1 bridge. Only small outborad motor boats and such occasionally go further up river. No tall crafts. Crane Creek is not a designated Naval Waterway.


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## joelkfla

May 2021 update to CFX board:

PTC on Miami to WPB expected to be complete by November
Resumption of service by end of year
WPB to Orlando construction 54% complete
OIA to Disney design at 30% complete
Disney to Tampa in conceptual design stage
Orlando Vehicle Maintenance Facility could be used by SunRail or Amtrak
Innovation Way (east of OIA) to Disney is being built to allow for future double tracking to support potential SunRail sharing
Slides are in attached PDF.

Video: Brightline update starts @12:35


https://otv.ocfl.net/otv/CFX/CFX2021/CFEXP051321/CFX051321.mp4


----------



## Qapla

Hunter’s Creek will fight Brightline from crossing through the community along S.R. 417


A lawyer for Hunter’s Creek in south Orange County is warning Central Florida transportation leaders of the community’s intention to fight Brightline efforts to build railroad tracks along State Road 417.




www.orlandosentinel.com


----------



## neroden

After looking at the Brightline construction advisory of 5/2/21, I think I have a better sense of what the slowest items in the construction are.

The bridges over Eau Gallie River (Melbourne) and Turkey Creek (Palm Bay), are scheduled to have ongoing construction through Q3 2022. The bridge over the Sebastian River (Sebastian) through "2022". The others are all supposed to be done earlier: Crane Creek (Melbourne) in Q2 2022, and most other stuff is listed as finishing in 2021. Although the Loxahatchee River (Jupiter) bridge may have a second part to it based on the work description.

From Orlando to Cocoa, there's one bridge (SR 520) which has barely started, with some drainage to deal with in the area too, and the precast-segment tunnel under 528 is a slow process, but the rest of the civil construction looks likely to be done well before the end of 2021.

This definitely makes me wonder if they can get service to Orlando running earlier in 2022 than their planned end-of-2022. They'd be four bridges short -- and in each case, by then they may already have one single-track bridge and be working on the second one. This might allow an early start. It would certainly be to their benefit to get some revenue coming in from Orlando-Miami trips ASAP.


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## jis

Someone from FECRS who knows folks at FECR mentioned to me that the Crane Creek Bridge will essentially be closed to traffic most of the day and be open to traffic only at designated hours when the few freights on the route are scheduled to go by. This would suggest that they have no plans to operate any hourly sort of service during the day until the two bridges are completed. This is likely true at the other bridges too. So I would be very surprised if they start anything before all the bridge work is completed. But of course time will tell.


----------



## neroden

It is very interesting that the critical path is running through the replacement of three bridges on the existing line, all of which are nonessential to service. I mean, right now they have a lot of other things going on, so they're probably not thinking about it, but if they get to Q1 of 2022 and they have complete operating track and signal everywhere else, someone is going to start looking at those bridges critically.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> If the new pillars are any indication I don’t believe there will be any change in the level at which the tracks will be. There may be marginally greater clearance under the bridge due to the use of more modern thinner girder beams. There is very little leisure boat traffic west of the bridge. All of it pretty much stops at the Melbourne Yacht Club Marina east of the the Rt. 1 bridge. Only small outborad motor boats and such occasionally go further up river. No tall crafts. Crane Creek is not a designated Naval Waterway.



Will the new bridges have ballasted track? Or will the track be rigid? If so, this might be a way to scrape a few inches of clearance for the beams.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> Will the new bridges have ballasted track? Or will the track be rigid? If so, this might be a way to scrape a few inches of clearance for the beams.


There is no need to get any additional clearance. There is no tall boat traffic upstream of the Rt. 1. bridge which is downstream from this bridge.


----------



## cocojacoby

joelkfla said:


> May 2021 update to CFX board:
> 
> PTC on Miami to WPB expected to be complete by November
> Resumption of service by end of year
> WPB to Orlando construction 54% complete
> OIA to Disney design at 30% complete
> Disney to Tampa in conceptual design stage
> Orlando Vehicle Maintenance Facility could be used by SunRail or Amtrak
> Innovation Way (east of OIA) to Disney is being built to allow for future double tracking to support potential SunRail sharing
> Slides are in attached PDF.
> 
> Video: Brightline update starts @12:35
> 
> 
> https://otv.ocfl.net/otv/CFX/CFX2021/CFEXP051321/CFX051321.mp4


You got to be impressed with this, right? Pretty amazing that this is actually happening. Got to give them a lot of credit.

I never was really comfortable with the idea of a private business taking over the NEC but this does make me wonder . . . what if?


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> You got to be impressed with this, right? Pretty amazing that this is actually happening. Got to give them a lot of credit.
> 
> I never was really comfortable with the idea of a private business taking over the NEC but this does make me wonder . . . what if?


I would refrain from counting the chicken before the eggs hatch. I would first let them run the full service for a couple of years and see how the finances pan out before getting impressed enough to consider bargaining away the NEC. The NEC is three orders of magnitude more complex than running maybe 16 round trips a day on a railroad part of which is dedicated to exactly those 16 trains, and the other part with only three to five freight trains a day that are mostly temporally separated.

At the present time a significant majority of people here are still worried that they will eventually be handed a bunch of stuff to bring onto taxpayer funded stuff which very few of the taxpayers here bargained for.

The model looks viable, but the taste of all models lies in what happens in actuality. So wait and watch is at least my position on this matter. Wish them well, but watch out for pitfalls.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> I would refrain from counting the chicken before the eggs hatch. I would first let them run the full service for a couple of years and see how the finances pan out before getting impressed enough to consider bargaining away the NEC. The NEC is three orders of magnitude more complex than running maybe 16 round trips a day on a railroad part of which is dedicated to exactly those 16 trains, and the other part with only three to five freight trains a day that are mostly temporally separated.



I agree with your point about wait and see. We will be able to form a clearer opinion when the service has been burnt in and has run for a few years. Will it abstract significant numbers from highways and airlines, for example?

Maybe the comparison with the NEC is unfair, but there are many corridors and proposed corridors that were being discussed and studied long before Brightline was ever thought of, and they're still not there today, or if they are coming together then its often with painful slowness, or even if they are running, are nowhere near attaining the speeds of frequency that Brightline will be offering. I think an important thought here is to come away from assuming that only Amtrak has what it takes to run a corridor service.


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> I agree with your point about wait and see. We will be able to form a clearer opinion when the service has been burnt in and has run for a few years. Will it abstract significant numbers from highways and airlines, for example?
> 
> Maybe the comparison with the NEC is unfair, but there are many corridors and proposed corridors that were being discussed and studied long before Brightline was ever thought of, and they're still not there today, or if they are coming together then its often with painful slowness, or even if they are running, are nowhere near attaining the speeds of frequency that Brightline will be offering. I think an important thought here is to come away from assuming that only Amtrak has what it takes to run a corridor service.


The NEC is complicated by the tangle of commuter operations on it or touching it at various points. The closest analogue would be if Amtrak were handling _all_ pax traffic on the NEC (perhaps save lines only temporarily touching it at major stations...Brunswick/Camden at WAS, for example).


----------



## west point

I have no idea how complicated this PTC mess is on the FEC ? Brightline might have wanted to restore service MIA - Palm Beach this summer but cannot as FEC's PTC is not yet FRA operational. The same goes for reduced service to Cocoa as nothing has been posted to my knowledge as to when that section will be PTC operational? I could imagine that Brightline might like to go to Cocoa to cover future cruise ship operations if the Florida governor can get the conflict he has with the CDC resolved. 

All this so Brightline can restore the operational knowledge it has lost so it can eventually operate to Orlando seamlessly.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> I have no idea how complicated this PTC mess is on the FEC ? Brightline might have wanted to restore service MIA - Palm Beach this summer but cannot as FEC's PTC is not yet FRA operational. The same goes for reduced service to Cocoa as nothing has been posted to my knowledge as to when that section will be PTC operational? I could imagine that Brightline might like to go to Cocoa to cover future cruise ship operations if the Florida governor can get the conflict he has with the CDC resolved.
> 
> All this so Brightline can restore the operational knowledge it has lost so it can eventually operate to Orlando seamlessly.


No. They had no plan to restore service anywhere before 3rd calendar quarter this year. The PTC work is running on schedule so far.

At this time the future Cocoa-Rockledge station is not part of any building plan. I doubt it will come about before DeSantis Governorship is over.


----------



## IndyLions

cocojacoby said:


> You got to be impressed with this, right? Pretty amazing that this is actually happening. Got to give them a lot of credit.
> 
> I never was really comfortable with the idea of a private business taking over the NEC but this does make me wonder . . . what if?



What if? How many trains has Brightline run through the pandemic? We've just had our clearest view yet of what happens if you turn over a public service to a private enterprise. As soon as business conditions go sideways - they shut operations down and cut their losses. 

Running trains isn't increasing their real estate prospects at the present time - so they have no interest in that activity. The construction projects and the "promise" of running trains in the future is what is raising the value of their real estate holdings - so that is what is holding their interest.


----------



## cocojacoby

IndyLions said:


> Running trains isn't increasing their real estate prospects at the present time - so they have no interest in that activity. The construction projects and the "promise" of running trains in the future is what is raising the value of their real estate holdings - so that is what is holding their interest.


We know that. The real estate potential along the NEC is enormously more lucrative.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cocojacoby said:


> We know that. The real estate potential along the NEC is enormously more lucrative.


Pretty sure that was in the past. Unless your add station stops you have maxed out the potential. Rebuilding of station to reflect a brighter modern feel may help the surrounding areas, or not. New shine equipment may help the route, or not. Overall the NEC is built up, people are use to, the areas have been upgraded. Can a area benefit from urban renewal? Maybe the history of tearing things down is quite mixed.


----------



## Qapla

I believe that Brightline plans to go all the way through Orlando and connect Miami with Tampa and eventually Jacksonville - I don't think they are planning on only servicing the area towards Altamonte Springs, Winter Park, Longwood and Oviedo ... so I do not see what the Northeast area (NEC) has to do with the Brightline Orlando Extension


----------



## cirdan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Pretty sure that was in the past. Unless your add station stops you have maxed out the potential. Rebuilding of station to reflect a brighter modern feel may help the surrounding areas, or not. New shine equipment may help the route, or not. Overall the NEC is built up, people are use to, the areas have been upgraded. Can a area benefit from urban renewal? Maybe the history of tearing things down is quite mixed.



The NEC still has potential in terms of extensions. Especially at its southern end into Virginia or even North Carolina. Now imagine if such an extension were to be a fully fledged extension, with electrification and comparable average speeds and levels of service. There would be plenty of opportunity there to max in on real estate.

But then Amtrak would have to own that real estate first.

And I guess private corporations have it easier sneakily buying up real estate than federal entities.


----------



## me_little_me

cirdan said:


> The NEC still has potential in terms of extensions. Especially at its southern end into Virginia or even North Carolina. Now imagine if such an extension were to be a fully fledged extension, with electrification and comparable average speeds and levels of service. There would be plenty of opportunity there to max in on real estate.
> 
> But then Amtrak would have to own that real estate first.
> 
> And I guess private corporations have it easier sneakily buying up real estate than federal entities.


There is no reason (other than politics) why Amtrak could not use eminent domain to take (after paying for) the existing station property at its present value then enhancing it by replacing the station/parking/adjacent purchased land with a new, more valuable building/parking deck/whatever that would make money for them.


----------



## jis

Brightline Trains Will Begin Rolling Into Orlando In Just Five Months To Begin Testing


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## VentureForth

IndyLions said:


> What if? How many trains has Brightline run through the pandemic? We've just had our clearest view yet of what happens if you turn over a public service to a private enterprise. As soon as business conditions go sideways - they shut operations down and cut their losses.


They started running trains through the pandemic. There is even a nice eBrochure on their cleaning plans. However, it was their failure in properly implementing required PTC which is the real reason why they are not operating. Covid is a convenient excuse.

Brightline is not a private enterprise that took over a public service. They were envisioned and created for the purpose of profit in their total business model and they are doubling and tripling down with their plans to extend to Tampa and Brightline West. They are taking the majority of the risk and will realize the majority of the reward - or loss.

It's completely different than the government taking over businesses that they no longer want.


----------



## jis

IndyLions said:


> What if? How many trains has Brightline run through the pandemic? We've just had our clearest view yet of what happens if you turn over a public service to a private enterprise. As soon as business conditions go sideways - they shut operations down and cut their losses.


No public service was turned over to private enterprise in this case. There was no service and there would have been no service if Brightline had not decided to try to help Fortress increase value of their holdings around FECR. So no, we have not seen what you claim. Your narrative is inconsistent with the facts in some critical details.


----------



## Tlcooper93

me_little_me said:


> There is no reason (other than politics) why Amtrak could not use eminent domain to take (after paying for) the existing station property at its present value then enhancing it by replacing the station/parking/adjacent purchased land with a new, more valuable building/parking deck/whatever that would make money for them.



Does Amtrak have the money to do something like this? Not sure the politics of this would uphold. 
I would be fan of something like this otherwise. The model would sort of mimic Hong Kong's MTR, and maybe be a game changer for Amtrak. Doubt anything like it will ever happen.


----------



## jis

I think politically this would be an efficient way of getting Amtrak appropriations reduced substantially in short order as property owners rise in revolt.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Brightline Trains Will Begin Rolling Into Orlando In Just Five Months To Begin Testing
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com


Just a reminder. These trains to be "rolling into Orlando" this summer are not the existing trainsets, but the new ones that are expected to begin arriving on the property in late summer. They will arrive via the new connection with the OUC railroad and travel to Orlando via CSX from Jacksonville.


----------



## Qapla

It sure would be neat to be able to ride from Jacksonville to Orlando in some of those cars


----------



## west point

Amtrak could probably initiate a charter of the Brightline trains from JAX to the Brightline maintenance facility. Will they do that ? Not a chance in heck. The train sets are already FRA approved as they did work Pal Beach - MIA..


----------



## west point

The corridor from WASH - Richmond is actually defined in certain Amtrak filings as part of the NEC. That may mean that VA may not have to pay much for additional service by Amtrak ? However that is just speculation and who knows for certain. Time will only tell as financial items may change even drastically.


----------



## cirdan

me_little_me said:


> There is no reason (other than politics) why Amtrak could not use eminent domain to take (after paying for) the existing station property at its present value then enhancing it by replacing the station/parking/adjacent purchased land with a new, more valuable building/parking deck/whatever that would make money for them.



If you want to really cash in on the added value you are creating it's not just the station building and parking lot you need to be buying but lots of further properties in the broader area. All of which will massively increase in desirability.


----------



## neroden

cocojacoby said:


> We know that. The real estate potential along the NEC is enormously more lucrative.


Only if (a) you buy the land and (b) you get the zoning changed to allow taller buildings


----------



## chrsjrcj

We don’t know what shape the new trainsets are in when they’re delivered, which would prevent any charters before delivery. Some of the original trainsets were actually delivered without seats (IIRC the seat vendor had to replace all the seats before Brightline accepted the trains even though they were on site).


----------



## jiml

Brian_tampa said:


> Just a reminder. These trains to be "rolling into Orlando" this summer are not the existing trainsets, but the new ones that are expected to begin arriving on the property in late summer. They will arrive via the new connection with the OUC railroad and travel to Orlando via CSX from Jacksonville.


I'm glad someone explained that. After reading the full linked article there was a bit of disconnect between the headline and the actual content which had quite a different timeline.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Brightline Trains Will Begin Rolling Into Orlando In Just Five Months To Begin Testing
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com


OOPS! Apparently the projected start of service just slipped from FQ 2023 to mid 2023.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jiml said:


> I'm glad someone explained that. After reading the full linked article there was a bit of disconnect between the headline and the actual content which had quite a different timeline.


If I recall from several years ago, Siemens promised to have the 1st of 5 new trainsets delivered Q3 2021 with the rest by end of 2022. I was also told by someone at Brightline that the same 5 colors (maybe this has changed, I haven't asked in several years) will be used. No additional colors.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> If I recall from several years ago, Siemens promised to have the 1st of 5 new trainsets delivered Q3 2021 with the rest by end of 2022. I was also told by someone at Brightline that the same 5 colors (maybe this has changed, I haven't asked in several years) will be used. No additional colors.


About colors, I was told they will eventually move away from colors, and go to a single livery because colors do not scale well - this according to Patrick Goddard. I don’t know whether he has since gotten overruled by his marketing guys.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> About colors, I was told they will eventually move away from colors, and go to a single livery because colors do not scale well - this according to Patrick Goddard. I don’t know whether he has since gotten overruled by his marketing guys.


Oh the confusion when they partner with Disney! Monorail Pink? No, Brightline Green?? Aaahhhhh!

Please stand clear of the doors. Por favor mantenganse allejadro de las puertas.


----------



## jis

Qapla said:


> It sure would be neat to be able to ride from Jacksonville to Orlando in some of those cars


That is more than ten years away at best.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> That is more than ten years away at best.


Beats Amtrak. With them, it will be 15 years (if at all) before we have their infrastructure corridor plans completed. And we know the Class 1s will not want to improve the track for passenger service. In fact, they'll likely try and make it 40 years if they can.


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Beats Amtrak. With them, it will be 15 years (if at all) before we have their infrastructure corridor plans completed. And we know the Class 1s will not want to improve the track for passenger service. In fact, they'll likely try and make it 40 years if they can.


With Brightline all that they will say is it is a possibility but we have no commitment to do it. So I don't see how that is significantly better than anyone else. I think railfans are going a bit ga-ga about Brightline rather prematurely. It is like thirsty person in desert seeing mirages.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> That is more than ten years away at best.



I thought we were talking about a charter?

Is there any reason preventing a Brightline set going anywhere at all on a charter?

The bigger question might be whether Brightlne has a spare train they can make available.


----------



## railiner

cirdan said:


> The bigger question might be whether Brightlne has a spare train they can make available.


The bigger question might be whether Brightline would ever let Amtrak use one of their trains...
I tend to think, not....


----------



## VentureForth

railiner said:


> The bigger question might be whether Brightline would ever let Amtrak use one of their trains...
> I tend to think, not....


This. I don't think than any passenger rail company can operate on a Class I that Amtrak serves. Maybe not a thing, but seeing that the Class I's don't like Amtrak but by law have to accommodate them, I doubt they would be amenable to anyone else.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> With Brightline all that they will say is it is a possibility but we have no commitment to do it. So I don't see how that is significantly better than anyone else. I think railfans are going a bit ga-ga about Brightline rather prematurely. It is like thirsty person in desert seeing mirages.


You can watch and read about Brightline expanding their service right NOW. What they promised a few years ago, they are doing NOW. What Amtrak promised a few years ago (simple improvement like bedding and the promised Points/cash combination) couldn't even be implemented after more than 2 years. Brightline put their trains in service as soon as they could. Amtrak let the new sleepers sit forever.

At this point, there are no mirages. Just promises that are mostly kept. Amtrak is the mirage company. Or better yet, the magician company (as you see things that suddenly disappear and you don't know why)

I have no special love for Brightline but it shows that things can get done. The first thing needed is for the company to care about where they are going. Yes, Amtrak has no money except what they can beg or borrow from the government but that doesn't explain false promises, sudden downgrades of services without notice, failing to tell customers the new schedules, etc. That doesn't take money. That takes good management.


----------



## jis

I did not say that it is not better at getting things done. What I said is they have not said definitively that they will do Jacksonville. They have also mentioned all sorts of other short routes including ones where they really have no chance of inserting themselves. JAX is certainly more likely than many of those since they at least have first dibs at track access and the railroad is managed by a company that they jointly own with FECR. But again. They have not said that they definitely will do it. It is a wait and see, at a significantly lower priority at present than say, the proposed station between West Palm Beach and Orlando.

So I stand by my comment "I think railfans are going a bit ga-ga about Brightline rather prematurely. It is like thirsty person in desert seeing mirages."

To repeat, I am no talking about Amtrak nor comparing Brightline with them. I am making a statement about Brightline. You OTOH appear to be fixated on Amtrak in a Brightline thread. I don't know why.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> This. I don't think than any passenger rail company can operate on a Class I that Amtrak serves. Maybe not a thing, but seeing that the Class I's don't like Amtrak but by law have to accommodate them, I doubt they would be amenable to anyone else.



Having worked in the big bad corporate world for more than half my career, I don't believe that anybody there is genuinely pro or anti anything. If the figures add up or there is some other advantage, they will do it. If the liabilities outweigh the gains they won't.

So it's all a question of how you walk up to a Class I and talk to them. If you recognize that passenger trains will inconvenience them in some way you need to look with an open mind about how you can offset that inconvenience in such a way that, all things taken into account, the Class I would still be better off with such a passenger service than without. If you approach them with unreasonable demands, they will hit back with unreasonable demands. 

It's not fundamentally different to inventing a new product and then walking up to Walgreens and expecting them to stock and sell it for you. If Walgreens believes the costs of putting your item on their shelf (and potentially displacing some other product) outweigh the benefits, you need to rethink your sales pitch and your value proposition. That's not the same thing as saying Walgreens is anti your product because they are a bunch of bone headed neanderthals who oppose progress.


----------



## Qapla

Qapla said:


> It sure would be neat to be able to ride from Jacksonville to Orlando in some of those cars





jis said:


> That is more than ten years away at best.



I think someone misunderstood my comment ... I was not talking about Brightline running service to JAX - I was referring to this comment (read bold as a single sentence to understand my comment):



Brian_tampa said:


> Just a reminder. *These trains to be "rolling into Orlando" this summer* *are* not the existing trainsets, but *the new ones that* are expected to begin arriving on the property in late summer. They *will arrive via the new connection with the OUC railroad and travel to Orlando via CSX from Jacksonville.*



And I said:



Qapla said:


> It sure would be neat to be able to ride from Jacksonville to Orlando in some of those cars



The riding I was talking about is not some distant route that fits this comment:



jis said:


> That is more than ten years away at best.





jis said:


> I did not say that it is not better at getting things done. What I said is they have not said definitively that they will do Jacksonville. They have also mentioned all sorts of other short routes including ones where they really have no chance of inserting themselves. JAX is certainly more likely than many of those since they at least have first dibs at track access and the railroad is managed by a company that they jointly own with FECR. But again. They have not said that they definitely will do it. It is a wait and see, at a significantly lower priority at present than say, the proposed station between West Palm Beach and Orlando.
> 
> So I stand by my comment "*I think railfans are going a bit ga-ga about Brightline rather prematurely*. It is like thirsty person in desert seeing mirages."
> 
> To repeat, I am no talking about Amtrak nor comparing Brightline with them. I am making a statement about Brightline. You OTOH appear to be fixated on Amtrak in a Brightline thread. I don't know why.



So, while I guess I could be considered a bit "ga-ga" for wanting to ride in an otherwise empty new car being delivered to Brightline via CSX, it should not take 10 years before these new cars are shuttled from JAX to Orlando since they are due into the port of JAX and expected in Orlando this summer ... unless they get lost along the way


----------



## VentureForth

cirdan said:


> Having worked in the big bad corporate world for more than half my career, I don't believe that anybody there is genuinely pro or anti anything. If the figures add up or there is some other advantage, they will do it. If the liabilities outweigh the gains they won't.
> 
> So it's all a question of how you walk up to a Class I and talk to them. If you recognize that passenger trains will inconvenience them in some way you need to look with an open mind about how you can offset that inconvenience in such a way that, all things taken into account, the Class I would still be better off with such a passenger service than without. If you approach them with unreasonable demands, they will hit back with unreasonable demands.
> 
> It's not fundamentally different to inventing a new product and then walking up to Walgreens and expecting them to stock and sell it for you. If Walgreens believes the costs of putting your item on their shelf (and potentially displacing some other product) outweigh the benefits, you need to rethink your sales pitch and your value proposition. That's not the same thing as saying Walgreens is anti your product because they are a bunch of bone headed neanderthals who oppose progress.


I don't disagree with anything you said. I just don't think we'll see the two come to a mutual agreement.


----------



## cirdan

Anderson said:


> I'm actually slightly surprised by mention of MIA in this (at least on the presumption that it would involve "mainline" Brightline trains). FLL...I believe that I have been calling _that _one since at _least _the day the first train ran. The location is just too good to pass up. Any protests to the contrary aside, I suspect that Brightline will eventually add service to FLL to their mainline trains. My guess is that it'll take an airline interlining deal of some sort to push it over the edge.



Just a thought here.

The people behind Brightline are real estate people, so the rationale behind their actions is often about leveraging value of real estate.

The way Brightline will serve Orlando airport will be a great boost to Orlando airport, siphoning off passengers at intermediate stations and giving them a one seat ride to Orlando airport. In other words, potential Miami airport customers, who might today be driving south to Miami, are being offered the attractive and comfortable alternative of being taken north to Orlando, possibly in less time than it would take to drive to Miami. In other words, Brightline is helping Orlando siphon away part of Miami's customer base.

Now, I guess Brightline want something in return. And to prevent Orlando from taking them for granted, they are making noise about something that would actually reverse the situation. Well, as long as you don't look at the details. But if it improves their position at the negotiating table, it's good enough maybe.

Just an idea?


----------



## jruff001

me_little_me said:


> You can watch and read about Brightline expanding their service right NOW.


??

Brightline hasn't operated a single revenue passenger train in over a year and has not announced anything publicly about resuming service (at least that I am aware of, and I just checked their website prior to posting this).

Meanwhile, the rest of Florida has been re-opened for some time, and airlines are reporting that domestic travel is back to about where it was pre-pandemic. The car traffic on Florida interstate highways certainly seems like it is back to about normal too. What is Brightline waiting for?


----------



## west point

jruff001 said:


> ??
> What is Brightline waiting for?



Brightline is waiting for the PTC system to be approved by the FRA. FEC tried to implement a PTC system that was I suppose was on the cheap. FEC and contractor could not make it even prove capable. So FEC has had to install a proven system clean sheet from failed system. Now how far along FEC is with the new PTC I have no idea ?


----------



## joelkfla

west point said:


> Brightline is waiting for the PTC system to be approved by the FRA. FEC tried to implement a PTC system that was I suppose was on the cheap. FEC and contractor could not make it even prove capable. So FEC has had to install a proven system clean sheet from failed system. Now how far along FEC is with the new PTC I have no idea ?


May 2021 update to CFX board:

PTC on Miami to WPB expected to be complete by November
Resumption of service by end of year


----------



## west point

*joelkfla *thanks for the update That end of the year really only* gives a month or so to work out any kinks of the PTC. *how about on to Cocoa ? Is there any plan for Brightline to go MIA - Cocoa as soon as the 2 MT is finished ? Would expect if not then why would FEC hurry that section ?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> *joelkfla *thanks for the update That end of the year really only* gives a month or so to work out any kinks of the PTC. *how about on to Cocoa ? Is there any plan for Brightline to go MIA - Cocoa as soon as the 2 MT is finished ? Would expect if not then why would FEC hurry that section ?


No. There is no place in Cocoa to platform a train. There is no station in Cocoa and at present only a vague plan for one at Cocoa-Rockledge some day, certainly not within the next several years. That one I am quite familiar about as far as status goes since it falls under the Space Coast TPO, meetings of which I sit in on regularly. What is 2 MT? What section are they hurrying? West Palm Beach to Cocoa is not schedule to be done until past 2Q2022.


----------



## joelkfla

west point said:


> *joelkfla *thanks for the update That end of the year really only* gives a month or so to work out any kinks of the PTC. *how about on to Cocoa ? Is there any plan for Brightline to go MIA - Cocoa as soon as the 2 MT is finished ? Would expect if not then why would FEC hurry that section ?


The Brightline VP gave no further details. I assumed PTC project "complete" meant fully tested and accepted by FRA.

Last I heard him say about start of service to Orlando was early 2023, but somebody posted a link to a news article above that said mid-2023. I've heard nothing about a partial extension of service before Orlando inception.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> The Brightline VP gave no further details, but I assumed PTC project "complete" meant fully tested and accepted by FRA.
> 
> Last I heard him say about start of service to Orlando was early 2023, but somebody posted a link to a news article above that said mid-2023. I've heard nothing about a partial extension of service before Orlando inception.


That is because there is nowhere to partially extend it to beyond WPB.


----------



## west point

2 MT as others have defined is is 2 main tracks fully CTC vs double track which is 1 track signaled one track each way current of traffic. At one time SOU RR's track ATL - WASH was double track right hand current of traffic with a few isolated sections of reversed signaling. If train traveled opposite required a form "D" MAX speed 59 MPH. For most sections of double track the signaling did not require any code lines except for some crossing signals.

I was wondering if FEC was proceeding with PTC installation towards Cocoa or if it was waiting until close to service all way to Orlando ? BTW how is the testing going? Why no station yet at Cocoa planned ? Is it because of the tollway charges of passengers just going Orlando - Cocoa ?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> I was wondering if FEC was proceeding with PTC installation towards Cocoa or if it was waiting until close to service all way to Orlando ? BTW how is the testing going? Why no station yet at Cocoa planned ? Is it because of the tollway charges of passengers just going Orlando - Cocoa ?


PTC testing has been going on upto WPB. I suppose they will start installing it north of WPB after the basic signaling system has been installed in the rebuilt railroad. I doubt they will do anything substantial this year, except perhaps on the Orlando to Cocoa Curve if that track becomes ready with signals and all.

A station at Cocoa-Rockledge is planned for sometime in the future and a site has been selected, but it is well known that nothing will happen until Orlando service has been well established. There are only so many things that can be funded at one time out of the current resources available.

There are at least two stations planned between WPB and Orlando, maybe three. One will be in Martin or St. Lucie County and the other one at Cocoa-Rockledge. But they are all at least five years away. Disney Springs will happen before them, but maybe they will happen before Tampa.

The toll issue is not a show stopper.Everyone knows how the agreement has to be modified and there is no basic disagreement on anything. They will just do it when needed. There will be a small surcharge on Cocoa to Orlando tickets possibly less than a dollar each.


----------



## neroden

cirdan said:


> Having worked in the big bad corporate world for more than half my career, I don't believe that anybody there is genuinely pro or anti anything. If the figures add up or there is some other advantage, they will do it. If the liabilities outweigh the gains they won't.
> 
> So it's all a question of how you walk up to a Class I and talk to them. If you recognize that passenger trains will inconvenience them in some way you need to look with an open mind about how you can offset that inconvenience in such a way that, all things taken into account, the Class I would still be better off with such a passenger service than without. If you approach them with unreasonable demands, they will hit back with unreasonable demands.
> 
> It's not fundamentally different to inventing a new product and then walking up to Walgreens and expecting them to stock and sell it for you. If Walgreens believes the costs of putting your item on their shelf (and potentially displacing some other product) outweigh the benefits, you need to rethink your sales pitch and your value proposition. That's not the same thing as saying Walgreens is anti your product because they are a bunch of bone headed neanderthals who oppose progress.


....I don't think the management of most of the Class Is are that competent.

OK, maybe BNSF is that competent. There's evidence for that.

But CSX has cut off its nose to spite its face, repeatedly, and I'm just talking about the freight business. When you're dealing with idiot management who don't know how to run their own company... I'm sure you have done so... it's not like you describe.

I blame short-termism -- if the corporate management's goal is to "juice" the quarterly earning report to get a larger bonus before they leave with their golden parachute, you can get some very bad mismanagement, and open hostility to things which are, long-term, profitable.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> The toll issue is not a show stopper.Everyone knows how the agreement has to be modified and there is no basic disagreement on anything. They will just do it when needed. There will be a small surcharge on Cocoa to Orlando tickets possibly less than a dollar each.


I hope you are right. From outside, it looks like DeSantis may be throwing obstacles. If he just wants to obstruct, he can do so by preventing the toll issue from being negotiated in good faith.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> That is because there is nowhere to partially extend it to beyond WPB.


In particular, all the station construction for stations between WPB and Orlando is YEARS behind the Orlando construction. None of them have started construction.


----------



## VentureForth

neroden said:


> I hope you are right. From outside, it looks like DeSantis may be throwing obstacles. If he just wants to obstruct, he can do so by preventing the toll issue from being negotiated in good faith.


Why would DeSantis, being an investor, want to obstruct?


----------



## jruff001

west point said:


> Brightline is waiting for the PTC system to be approved by the FRA. FEC tried to implement a PTC system that was I suppose was on the cheap. FEC and contractor could not make it even prove capable. So FEC has had to install a proven system clean sheet from failed system. Now how far along FEC is with the new PTC I have no idea ?


Thanks!

It is odd they don't update their website to say that and are just leaving it as blaming Covid.


----------



## jis

jruff001 said:


> It is odd they don't update their website to say that and are just leaving it as blaming Covid.


Most of their customers understand COVID and would not know a PTC if it came and crapped on their face. Only the few rail savvy ones would even vaguely know what PTC is. And I suspect they would not want to publicize too much they took their eye off the eight ball on a critical safety system, So here we are. 

When they initially announced the shutdown of service, I was one of the very few who was able to connect it with the PTC issue because I carefully read PTC related publications from the FRA, which carried a tiny footprint, easily missed, that FECR had withdrawn their eATC based PTC certification request, soon followed by an obscure notice in a industry rag far removed from the FRA, from Wabtec saying they were installing I-ETMS for FECR. Nowhere did Brightline appear in any of those. You just had to know enough background to connect things together. Initially, even the FECRS folks did not believe me when I raised awareness about this. It took a good several months before people came to realize what was going on.

Frankly they have absolutely no reason to highlight this at this time, and letting sleeping dogs lay sleeping is probably the best approach. Those who need to know the details, know it, and those who don't, don't.



west point said:


> Brightline is waiting for the PTC system to be approved by the FRA. FEC tried to implement a PTC system that was I suppose was on the cheap. FEC and contractor could not make it even prove capable. So FEC has had to install a proven system clean sheet from failed system. Now how far along FEC is with the new PTC I have no idea ?


That is an over simplification. eATC PTC systems work just fine. For example ACSES II works just fine. The problem was interoperability. With the advent of interchange of trains between Tri-Rail and Birghtline it became obvious that continuing to use eATC would become progressively more cost prohibitive for everyone. So they chose to take advantage of the window of opportunity provided by COVID and the expansion of service to Orlando and the fact that the demonstration service to WPB had served its basic purpose already and was bleeding more money every month, to simply shut the old system down ind replace it with one that interoperates seamlessly with Tri-Rail and incidentally other freight operators north of JAX, thus allowing run through powers too. I consider it to be a clever use of circumstances to reduce long term cost of operation with minimal impact that was unavoidable in the circumstances.


----------



## me_little_me

jruff001 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> It is odd they don't update their website to say that and are just leaving it as blaming Covid.


Covid has been blamed for all sorts of mistakes. The British even blamed it for the loss of the American colonies!


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Most of their customers understand COVID and would not know a PTC if it came and crapped on their face. Only the few rail savvy ones would even vaguely know what PTC is. And I suspect they would not want to publicize too much they took their eye off the eight ball on a critical safety system, So here we are.
> 
> When they initially announced the shutdown of service, I was one of the very few who was able to connect it with the PTC issue because I carefully read PTC related publications from the FRA, which carried a tiny footprint, easily missed, that FECR had withdrawn their eATC based PTC certification request, soon followed by an obscure notice in a industry rag far removed from the FRA, from Wabtec saying they were installing I-ETMS for FECR. Nowhere did Brightline appear in any of those. You just had to know enough background to connect things together. Initially, even the FECRS folks did not believe me when I raised awareness about this. It took a good several months before people came to realize what was going on.
> 
> Frankly they have absolutely no reason to highlight this at this time, and letting sleeping dogs lay sleeping is probably the best approach. Those who need to know the details, know it, and those who don't, don't.
> 
> 
> That is an over simplification. eATC PTC systems work just fine. For example ACSES II works just fine. The problem was interoperability. With the advent of interchange of trains between Tri-Rail and Birghtline it became obvious that continuing to use eATC would become progressively more cost prohibitive for everyone. So they chose to take advantage of the window of opportunity provided by COVID and the expansion of service to Orlando and the fact that the demonstration service to WPB had served its basic purpose already and was bleeding more money every month, to simply shut the old system down ind replace it with one that interoperates seamlessly with Tri-Rail and incidentally other freight operators north of JAX, thus allowing run through powers too. I consider it to be a clever use of circumstances to reduce long term cost of operation with minimal impact that was unavoidable in the circumstances.


I remember the industry trade Journal report from Wabtech announcing their new contract with Brightline/FECR. Another stated reason was that E-ATC PTC did not allow for flexibility in operations. If I recall, the blocks were rigid and could not be adjusted to meet changing schedules and frequency of operation.


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> I remember the industry trade Journal report from Wabtech announcing their new contract with Brightline/FECR. Another stated reason was that E-ATC PTC did not allow for flexibility in operations. If I recall, the blocks were rigid and could not be adjusted to meet changing schedules and frequency of operation.


That is sort of of theoretical interest since they are overlaying I-ETMS on a fixed block signaling system at least for now.


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## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> That is sort of of theoretical interest since they are overlaying I-ETMS on a fixed block signaling system at least for now.


I admit I only have limited knowledge of the details of PTC systems. Perhaps they realized that with future commuter service they would need to have greater flexibility in the future to handle increased traffic? A fixed block system would definitely limit the number of trains and how close they could operate relative to each other. And could E-ATC handle the grade crossing sensors required for 110mph operation?


----------



## jis

Brian_tampa said:


> I admit I only have limited knowledge of the details of PTC systems. Perhaps they realized that with future commuter service they would need to have greater flexibility in the future to handle increased traffic? A fixed block system would definitely limit the number of trains and how close they could operate relative to each other. And could E-ATC handle the grade crossing sensors required for 110mph operation?


Grade crossing gates and intrusion detection are not part of core PTC. Those are add ons to the PTC system whether it be I-ETMS or what was Brightline eATC or what is Amtrak's eATC known as ACSES II, which actually is currently the most capable PTC system for high speed high density passenger train operation in the US. There is very little that prevents them from being added to any implementation of PTC.

I don’t think traffic is an issue since fixed block eATC systems can handle 2 min headways, and do so at many places. Amtrak does slightly worse at 24tph on the NEC on a single uni directional track flow on the "High Line" between Newark and New York every regular weekeday for two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening. It will be a very long time before anything like that comes to pass in Miami.


----------



## jruff001

jis said:


> Most of their customers understand COVID and would not know a PTC if it came and crapped on their face. Only the few rail savvy ones would even vaguely know what PTC is. And I suspect they would not want to publicize too much they took their eye off the eight ball on a critical safety system, So here we are.


That is all true, but leaving up the same notice for over a year now and claiming they are still not operating due to social distancing and mandatory work from home requirements (which have both been over for months in Florida now) just gives the impression the project is simply frozen in place and may never happen or resume - like they just gave up.

They wouldn't have to get into any technical specifics about PTC, or even reference that at all. They could say some upgrades are being made, we estimate we can begin operating by a certain month, etc.


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## jis

jruff001 said:


> That is all true, but leaving up the same notice for over a year now and claiming they are still not operating due to social distancing and mandatory work from home requirements (which have both been over for months in Florida now) just gives the impression the project is simply frozen in place and may never happen or resume - like they just gave up.


I doubt that anyone who lives around here and has to face endless road closures and lane blockages with lines of flat bed trucks carrying loads of concrete ties waiting to be unloaded on the FEC ROW by grade crossings, and massive bridge construction at each river and creek crossing, actually believes that though. 

And anyone who chances on their Florida page would probably not get the impression that they have given up either.






Brightline Florida | Brightline


Brightline ticket booking




www.gobrightline.com





I think there are only a few railfans that care enough about knowing anything beyond their stated position that they discontinued service due to COVID and will restart by the end of the year. Additionally. Some newspaper reports have already mentioned the PTC thing too, but usually more in the context of Tri-Rail getting to MiamiCentral than about Brightline service to West Palm Beach. At least I have not heard anyone voice great concern about it in Brightline-land where I live. But as @Bob Dylan says often YMMV.


----------



## west point

jis: Now that you mention it. How is the Tri-Rail to Miami Central progressing as to PTC ? Or is that all tied up for PTC to Palm Beach ?


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## jis

west point said:


> jis: Now that you mention it. How is the Tri-Rail to Miami Central progressing as to PTC ? Or is that all tied up for PTC to Palm Beach ?


Same PTC project. Wabtec I-ETMS installation and testing. Brightline train sets are testing MimaiCentral to West Palm Beach these days. I understand that Tri-Rail will start cross testing in a month or two. I don;t think any installation work has been done north of WPB yet, as track work and signal system upgrade work together with grade crossing enhancement work continues apace.


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## VentureForth

I traveled the 528 twice this weekend and had some interesting observations. Almost all the ROW is cleared and graded. Concrete barriers are installed along probably 30% of the stretch between the airport and I-95. Perspective is difficult to judge when one is barreling down the tollway, but it seemed like there wasn't really room for two sets of tracks, just one along much of the route. Almost all of the ramps to cross rivers, swamps and roads have been completed, but I don't think that any bridge beams have been installed yet. I don't know the schedule at all, but a signboard stating that the the 528 exit from I-95 will be closed on 6/8 says to me that could be the date they install the bridge beams over I-95! That would be way cool.

I also noticed as I was getting closer to Orlando, that I saw at least two sets of signals installed. Could this be a siding location with the rest being single tracked?

Anyway, the progress has been steady! Exciting to see! Now, we need a station in Brevard County committed to.


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## VentureForth

jruff001 said:


> They wouldn't have to get into any technical specifics about PTC, or even reference that at all. They could say some upgrades are being made, we estimate we can begin operating by a certain month, etc.


Eventually they will have to. But for now, Covid is an excuse that nearly everyone can believe.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Eventually they will have to. But for now, Covid is an excuse that nearly everyone can believe.


If they meet their stated target for restarting ops between Miami and WPB in 3/4Q this year I don't think they have to say anything further at all. They will just start service. Even if they say something it will simply be that a new PTC system has been tested and certified. They won't say anything technical. Afterall, just consider how few people even on this board understand the technical details of PTC, and folks here are supposed to be knowledgeable about such stuff. General public? Forget it!

As for where the ROW is single track and where double track that is completely documented in the FEIS. No need to guess. There are segments which are planned to be single track even after the originally planned double track portions are all double tracked.


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## MARC Rider

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Pretty sure that was in the past. Unless your add station stops you have maxed out the potential. Rebuilding of station to reflect a brighter modern feel may help the surrounding areas, or not. New shine equipment may help the route, or not. Overall the NEC is built up, people are use to, the areas have been upgraded. Can a area benefit from urban renewal? Maybe the history of tearing things down is quite mixed.


Well, Amtrak has some opportunity to make money selling air rights over trackage near the Washington DC and Philadelphia Stations, at least. They also have plans to develop the land they own around the Baltimore station. And I suspect that the land around the commuter stations, even if not served by Amtrak, is owned by Amtrak.


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## VentureForth

Welp... This could've been real bad real fast. Maybe it will speed up the completion of the Crane Creek Bridge.

Cement mixer strikes railroad bridge with a freight train approaching in Fla. - News Break

I thought tracks with trains that carried Hazmat required PTC. This is according to a buddy of mine who works for NS who said they had to convert to all PTC even though they don't carry passengers along the route in his territory.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Welp... This could've been real bad real fast. Maybe it will speed up the completion of the Crane Creek Bridge.
> 
> Cement mixer strikes railroad bridge with a freight train approaching in Fla. - News Break
> 
> I thought tracks with trains that carried Hazmat required PTC. This is according to a buddy of mine who works for NS who said they had to convert to all PTC even though they don't carry passengers along the route in his territory.


Seriously, if the train were on the other side of the bridge it would have fallen into the river since there is no track on the other side of the bridge 

It is more than likely that the train was carrying things that they are allowed to carry under the exception granted by FRA under which they are currently operating.

The writer of that article appears to be trying to maximize the sensation value more than deliver actual news. 

I don't think it will have any effect on the construction schedule of that bridge.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Seriously, if the train were on the other side of the bridge it would have fallen into the river since there is no track on the other side of the bridge


I think you misread into that. The approach from the North has about a 3/4 mile straight view before the creek whereas the approach from the South only has about 1/5 mile after an S turn.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Seriously, if the train were on the other side of the bridge it would have fallen into the river since there is no track on the other side of the bridge
> 
> It is more than likely that the train was carrying things that they are allowed to carry under the exception granted by FRA under which they are currently operating.
> 
> The writer of that article appears to be trying to maximize the sensation value more than deliver actual news.
> 
> I don't think it will have any effect on the construction schedule of that bridge.


The one good thing, as Roaming Railfan pointed out in his drone YouTube of the repairs in progress, is that they only have to fix it well enough to last until the first side of the replacement bridge is done, which is expected by the end of the year.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> I think you misread into that. The writer was saying other side of the bridge, as in coming in from the North where you can't see the bridge until you round the curve downtown. That would not have given the engineer/conductor the time to react and stop the train. Not the unfinished track next to the current ROW.


Maybe so, but he said "The conductor of the train saw the accident about a mile before the crossing and was able to apply the brakes and come to a slow stop where a girder *holding tracks going in the opposite direction* was damaged." There _are _no tracks going in the opposite direction; only one side of the bridge is tracked. The other side is abandoned with tracks removed.


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> Maybe so, but he said "The conductor of the train saw the accident about a mile before the crossing and was able to apply the brakes and come to a slow stop where a girder *holding tracks going in the opposite direction* was damaged." There _are _no tracks going in the opposite direction; only one side of the bridge is tracked. The other side is abandoned with tracks removed.


Well, ya. That's just sucky reporting. I edited my post with the sight lines from the North and the South. You have about 3/4 mile from the North and about 1/5 mile from the South. Yes, only one girder over Melbourne Ave. Point is, if the train came from the South, it's possible, if not likely, the train wouldn't have had enough time to slow preventing a derailment.

What would have been useful is if the reporter noted if the track was just knocked out of alignment (like the great Amtrak Bayou crash) which would not have been caught by any signaling or PTC system or if the track separated (which would have sent alarms). Now that would have been proper reporting and would have been easily accessible to any reporter regardless of his experience with the railroad if he talked to the right person.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> I think you misread into that. The approach from the North has about a 3/4 mile straight view before the creek whereas the approach from the South only has about 1/5 mile after an S turn.


I don't think so. I think you are the one that is missing my point being absorbed in irrelevant details . See @joelkfla 's post above. It does not matter how many miles the engineer can or cannot see. That does not change the fact that there is no track on the girder going in the opposite direction.


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## VentureForth

I concede. Y'all are right, but I think y'all knew what he _meant_ - that if the TRAIN was going the other direction, he would not have been able to put the train in emergency in time. And it was written by the editor in chief of a rail news source, so he should have known better.


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## west point

What was the clearance that the bridge had over the road. Is the replacement bridge going to be raised ? Will FEC be able to salvage a beam(s) on the abandoned second track bridging that will fit the broken section.? 

What is more important is that a bridge aliment warning system be installed. Would not want a Brightline train to come upon another incident !!


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## jis

They could use a real low tech technique used at many places in India, where they place an extremely robust structure that is a little lower than the bottom of the bridge girder on each side of the bridge so that the over height road vehicle has an opportunity to destroy itself without affecting the bridge. Works like a charm each time, what with carcasses of road vehicles left unrecovered by those protection barrier beams. 

They use a lighter structure to forewarn road traffic of the height of 25kV catenary contact wires. These are placed further from the track allowing the driver to take corrective action, like stopping. Seems to work quite well too.



west point said:


> What was the clearance that the bridge had over the road. Is the replacement bridge going to be raised ? Will FEC be able to salvage a beam(s) on the abandoned second track bridging that will fit the broken section.?


My guess is around 12' or less. The adjacent Rt 1 overpass is 11'7". The truck came from the upstream side so it did not have an opportunity to have an encounter with that structure which has shorn many a truck of their tops.

There is no girder over Melbourne Ave. on the second track alignment so there is nothing to salvage. It is possible that Melbourne Ave. will remain closed for a while.


> What is more important is that a bridge aliment warning system be installed. Would not want a Brightline train to come upon another incident !!


A robust bridge alignment protection system may be in order in addition to just an intrusion and displacement detection system. The new trestle is not particularly higher than the current one, since they are using the same height approaches from both banks.

Here is what happens quite often at the adjacent Rt. 1. overpass ...


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## VentureForth

Sitting at a crossing about a block away. Train passing no more than 10 mph. And they aren't any shorter than normal.

Melbourne Ave was the only underpass in the area. All other crossings are at grade. And they shut down Melbourne Ave because of the accident.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> They could use a real low tech technique used at many places in India, where they place an extremely robust structure that is a little lower than the bottom of the bridge girder on each side of the bridge so that the over height road vehicle has an opportunity to destroy itself without affecting the bridge. Works like a charm each time, what with carcasses of road vehicles left unrecovered by those protection barrier beams.
> 
> They use a lighter structure to forewarn road traffic of the height of 25kV catenary contact wires. These are placed further from the track allowing the driver to take corrective action, like stopping. Seems to work quite well too.
> 
> 
> My guess is around 12' or less. The adjacent Rt 1 overpass is 11'7". The truck came from the upstream side so it did not have an opportunity to have an encounter with that structure which has shorn many a truck of their tops.
> 
> There is no girder over Melbourne Ave. on the second track alignment so there is nothing to salvage. It is possible that Melbourne Ave. will remain closed for a while.
> 
> A robust bridge alignment protection system may be in order in addition to just an intrusion and displacement detection system. The new trestle is not particularly higher than the current one, since they are using the same height approaches from both banks.
> 
> Here is what happens quite often at the adjacent Rt. 1. overpass ...


Perhaps someone should have bought the driver of that truck, a poster from this site:
Poster for Trucker?


----------



## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> Oh the confusion when they partner with Disney! Monorail Pink? No, Brightline Green?? Aaahhhhh!
> 
> Please stand clear of the doors. Por favor mantenganse allejadro de las puertas.


When I first heard the line, I misheard it as "de las muertas".


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## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> When I first heard the line, I misheard it as "de las muertas".


Stand clear of the deadbeats? That's valid in FL, too!


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## VentureForth

VentureForth said:


> I don't know the schedule at all, but a signboard stating that the the 528 exit from I-95 will be closed on 6/8 says to me that could be the date they install the bridge beams over I-95! That would be way cool.


The exit to FL-528 from I-95 has been pushed back a week. I've noticed about two/three bridges along the Beeline with the beams installed. Activity near the airport is very busy.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> They could use a real low tech technique used at many places in India, where they place an extremely robust structure that is a little lower than the bottom of the bridge girder on each side of the bridge so that the over height road vehicle has an opportunity to destroy itself without affecting the bridge. Works like a charm each time, what with carcasses of road vehicles left unrecovered by those protection barrier beams.
> 
> They use a lighter structure to forewarn road traffic of the height of 25kV catenary contact wires. These are placed further from the track allowing the driver to take corrective action, like stopping. Seems to work quite well too.
> 
> 
> My guess is around 12' or less. The adjacent Rt 1 overpass is 11'7". The truck came from the upstream side so it did not have an opportunity to have an encounter with that structure which has shorn many a truck of their tops.
> 
> There is no girder over Melbourne Ave. on the second track alignment so there is nothing to salvage. It is possible that Melbourne Ave. will remain closed for a while.
> 
> A robust bridge alignment protection system may be in order in addition to just an intrusion and displacement detection system. The new trestle is not particularly higher than the current one, since they are using the same height approaches from both banks.
> 
> Here is what happens quite often at the adjacent Rt. 1. overpass ...


So they aren't really going to be inclined to install that bridge any higher than the current 11'9", even if they could, considering that the US-1 is at 11'7".

Interestingly, according to Google Maps (I'll verify next time I'm out there in person) if you approach the rail trestle from either Depot Ave or Henley Ct., you'll never see the height warnings because there is no max headroom signage on the rail bridge itself.

The federal recommendation is 14'. Obviously, Melbourne Ave isn't a federal highway, but a savvy lawyer could have quite a case against the FEC for not having any markings on the bridge itself.

Lots of condos in view of both of those bridges. A local could set up the next 11foot7 or 11foot9 YouTube channel.

In Greenville, TX, there was a height sensor along I-30. If a truck was too high for the next overpass, lights would flash to guide the truck to the next off-ramp (it's since been upgraded). Tech exists, but you can't always fix stupid.


----------



## lordsigma

Was looking thru the FECR/Brightline PTCSP. It looks like they are installing 52 WIUs on all 38 signal locations between WPB and Miami with 7 base radios. They will not be integrating their cab signals with PTC - they instead will install WIUs on all block signal locations. This is unlike the approach CSX and NS took in their cab signaled subdivisions where they integrated cab signals and only installed WIUs at control points/interlockings - Amtrak also did the same as CSX/NS on the portion of the NEC they overlayed with I-ETMS. FECR's proposed implementation is more like the approach UP has taken and UP is eventually looking to discontinue cab signals altogether. The document seems to hint that FECR will continue to keep their full ATC system active with no hint that they eventually hope to phase it out - I think I saw the federal laws still require a cab signal system for speeds greater than 79 even with PTC - does anyone know for sure what the law says on that?


----------



## jis

I have not seen the PTCSP so cannot comment on something that I have not read yet.

Meanwhile, here is what 49 CFR says about PTC:









49 CFR Subpart I - Positive Train Control Systems







www.law.cornell.edu


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## Just-Thinking-51

IE: Rebuilding of bridges. Each state has a height standard, not the Federal Government. The general state laws are when you rebuild a bridge it must meet the current requirements. That said the state will waver the height requirements if there a need. A GPS for a car does not work for a truck. A GPS for a truck has height feature that can be adjusted for different type of vehicles. A GPS does not replace a trained alert driver.


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## railiner

VentureForth said:


> The federal recommendation is 14'. Obviously, Melbourne Ave isn't a federal highway, but a savvy lawyer could have quite a case against the FEC for not having any markings on the bridge itself.


I would think it was the highway departments responsibility to warn vehicles about low bridges. The railroad was probably there well before the road crossing, and the height at the time, like many older bridges was sufficient for contemporary traffic. When vehicle heights increased, the highway should have been rebuilt, closed, or height restricted warning signs put in place...


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## jis

Suffice it to say there is no highway involved here. It is a local 30mph road. And oddly enough it was there before FEC was built.

The main road Strawbridge Ave. to the Melbourne Causeway is two roads over and crosses the railroad at a grade crossing and has 35 mph speed limit. It is a US Highway as in US 192.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> jis: Now that you mention it. How is the Tri-Rail to Miami Central progressing as to PTC ? Or is that all tied up for PTC to Palm Beach ?


As I said earlier it is all the same PTC implementation. FECR/BTF submitted their Test Request V1.1 (Docket #RRS-210407-005) and got it approved around April 9th, 2021. Tests have been proceeding since then. I-ETMS Phase 1 covers only WPB to Miami Central, the Port lead and the main line towards Bowden Yard upto Iris, which is considered to be also the entrance to Bowden Yard I suppose. But primarily it is all trackage targeted for passenger operation. This answers another one your question.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> Was looking thru the FECR/Brightline PTCSP. It looks like they are installing 52 WIUs on all 38 signal locations between WPB and Miami with 7 base radios. They will not be integrating their cab signals with PTC - they instead will install WIUs on all block signal locations. This is unlike the approach CSX and NS took in their cab signaled subdivisions where they integrated cab signals and only installed WIUs at control points/interlockings - Amtrak also did the same as CSX/NS on the portion of the NEC they overlayed with I-ETMS. FECR's proposed implementation is more like the approach UP has taken and UP is eventually looking to discontinue cab signals altogether. The document seems to hint that FECR will continue to keep their full ATC system active with no hint that they eventually hope to phase it out - I think I saw the federal laws still require a cab signal system for speeds greater than 79 even with PTC - does anyone know for sure what the law says on that?


I finally managed to read that document. The ATC and I-ETMS are maintained pretty separately. The only interaction is in the back office where the WIU transmitted status is integrated into the authorization logic. Interestingly, the signal aspect is transmitted now over the 220MHz and/or Cellular link to the locomotive. I presume the Loco Control Unit is fed both pieces of information and enforces the most restrictive of them, but nothing is mentioned about that. I get the feeling that the only thing done with the signal aspect info is to display it, which would be weird since it does involve so much effort to get it there and then not use in the enforcement logic. 

As for requiring cab signal, that would be an odd requirement since the target speed of zero is pretty solid indication I would imagine. But who knows?

I am left wondering why they did it this way. It does provide an extra layer of fail safe redundancy, but potentially the operating crew has to deal with two set of warnings and chimes etc. I will look for some further explanation of why.


----------



## jis

'You’ll have a much safer rail corridor': Indian River County comes to lawsuit settlement with Brightline


Indian River County requested to drop its final lawsuit against Brightline Trains, LLC, and Florida East Coast Railway, LLC, Wednesday.




www.wpbf.com


----------



## joelkfla

Big battle at today's CFX board meeting between the I-Drive-or-Bust contingent and the Get-it-Done-Now contingent for the Disney-Tampa extension.

Hunter Creek reps said they got their own consulting firm to look at the alignment costs, and that Brightline's cost estimates are full of it. DeSantis' man tried to convince the other board members that signing the MOU was just stepping into a bucketful of trouble. Orange County Mayor Demmings said that if you think you'll be getting money from the county to pay for the 528 alignment, you've got another think coming, 'cause the money just ain't there. Another member followed up saying why bother even discussing the 528 alignment when there's no money for it, no matter whether it's $1B or $200M. Somebody else pointed out that if the 528 alignment were to be taken, CFX wouldn't be involved anyway (that segment of 528 is owned by FLDOT). Then the Lee County rep threw his support to the 528 alignment, even while acknowledging that his county wasn't directly involved.

Getting a bit off topic, but giving me a few laughs, an Orlando councilwoman (I think) talked about how wonderfully freight railroads share their tracks with Amtrak, so Brightline should share their tracks with whoever wants to use them (apparently implying that included light rail.) One of the Brightline reps gently pointed out that some technologies are compatible, and some others are not.

Things got a bit heated at one point, when someone cast aspersions on "the way things are done in Tallahassee." DeSantis' man took exception, and started speechifying about how DeSantis has been the foremost champion of individual rights. To which another board member quickly retorted, "Not if you're LGBTQ!"

So anyway, as it stands, the MOU will be tweaked and come up for formal discussion and approval at a special July meeting. Meanwhile, CFX, Brightline, and Hunters Creek will try to get together and work out the differences on the cost estimates, possibly bringing in yet another consulting firm as the referee.

If the MOU is approved in July, it looks like it will be by a split vote. If it's not, FLDOT has threatened to scuttle the whole extension.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> I finally managed to read that document. The ATC and I-ETMS are maintained pretty separately. The only interaction is in the back office where the WIU transmitted status is integrated into the authorization logic. Interestingly, the signal aspect is transmitted now over the 220MHz and/or Cellular link to the locomotive. I presume the Loco Control Unit is fed both pieces of information and enforces the most restrictive of them, but nothing is mentioned about that. I get the feeling that the only thing done with the signal aspect info is to display it, which would be weird since it does involve so much effort to get it there and then not use in the enforcement logic.
> 
> As for requiring cab signal, that would be an odd requirement since the target speed of zero is pretty solid indication I would imagine. But who knows?
> 
> I am left wondering why they did it this way. It does provide an extra layer of fail safe redundancy, but potentially the operating crew has to deal with two set of warnings and chimes etc. I will look for some further explanation of why.



I'm surprised they didn't take CSX/NS's approach integrating it. CSX/NS saved some money in their cab signaled subdivisions by using the cab signal integration as the intermediate signal input to PTC and only installing WIUs on their home signals in the cab signalled territories. Having said that in a lot of the CSX/NS involved subdivisions they have gone to the "cabs without waysides" operating model - the RF&P being one big exception. The RF&P has wayside intermediates but no WIUs on the intermediates they rely on the cab integration.


----------



## jis

Brightline Seeing Pushback from Central Florida Expressway Authority, Businesses, and Residents Regarding Orlando Route - WDW News Today


Brightline is facing pushback regarding its proposed agreement over the right-of-way for a future Orlando-Tampa route.




wdwnt.com


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> I'm surprised they didn't take CSX/NS's approach integrating it. CSX/NS saved some money in their cab signaled subdivisions by using the cab signal integration as the intermediate signal input to PTC and only installing WIUs on their home signals in the cab signalled territories. Having said that in a lot of the CSX/NS involved subdivisions they have gone to the "cabs without waysides" operating model - the RF&P being one big exception. The RF&P has wayside intermediates but no WIUs on the intermediates they rely on the cab integration.


I guess one could argue that using cab signal integration like CSX, NS have done makes the system less interoperable, specially if the cab signal aspect pickup requires an additional interface to the legacy Coded Track Circuit in the locomotive. NS and CSX are blessed with having a CTC system that is more or less compatible with such in adjacent railroads and there is a large pool of locomotives equipped to work with those, so it is less of an issue for them than for FEC which has a unique ATC system. Allowing foreign power to operate purely using I-ETMS and not requiring additional ATC equipment might have motivated them to fully transfer all signal information Home and Block to the I-ETMS system and transmitting the information over its wireless network. Just a wild a$$ guess.


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> I guess one could argue that using cab signal integration like CSX, NS have done makes the system less interoperable, specially if the cab signal aspect pickup requires an additional interface to the legacy Coded Track Circuit in the locomotive. NS and CSX are blessed with having a CTC system that is more or less compatible with such in adjacent railroads and there is a large pool of locomotives equipped to work with those, so it is less of an issue for them than for FEC which has a unique ATC system. Allowing foreign power to operate purely using I-ETMS and not requiring additional ATC equipment might have motivated them to fully transfer all signal information Home and Block to the I-ETMS system and transmitting the information over its wireless network. Just a wild a$$ guess.


That makes sense - also from what I’ve heard about CSX’s setup when you rely on that approach you essentially have to cut out PTC if you have to cut out cabs because then PTC will assume a restricting aspect if cabs are cut out and you’ll be stuck at restricted speed - at least on the RF&P. On other divisions where it’s cabs without waysides they may have built functionality into I-ETMS for the c light at home signals where if the WIU reports a c signal then the train can proceed at speed to the next interlocking but I don’t know for sure. On the RF&P CSX is looking for permission to remove their traditional ATC speed control on their locomotives (RF&P is the only subdivision where they have atc speed control) they state that ATC speed control problems cause them to have to completely cut out cab signals in the locomotive which in turn makes them have to cut out PTC in this particular territory. A benefit to ending the use of Conventional speed control is that it would allow you to get closer to the real point on which you have to slow down as I-ETMS knows where the actual aspect change points are and knows the point at which it needs to create a speed target for a cab signal downgrade whereas old fashioned speed control starts enforcing it right away after whatever delay period it has. They will maintain the automatic train stop portion which stops the train if the engineer does not acknowledge the cab signal downgrade.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Brightline Seeing Pushback from Central Florida Expressway Authority, Businesses, and Residents Regarding Orlando Route - WDW News Today
> 
> 
> Brightline is facing pushback regarding its proposed agreement over the right-of-way for a future Orlando-Tampa route.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wdwnt.com


_sighs_

Is there a map handy of the two routings?

(Also, given that there's been serious talk of an interchange station at Hunter's Creek, I'd like to see Brightline get an agreement with SunRail for that and then turn around and say "Now you're getting_ all_ the benefits of it, so stuff your lawsuit".


----------



## VentureForth

They are stating that the Taft-Vineland route is preferred by the I-Drive businesses, but there is no discussion of there being any stop between Disney Springs and MCO regardless of the routing.

I would love to see a monorail or some sort of high capacity mass transit along International Drive between Sea World and Universal. The traffic, even right now as we ease off Covid, is horrible. Brightline isn't likely going to be that answer.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> _sighs_
> 
> Is there a map handy of the two routings?











Brightline Reveals Costs and Route Preference for Disney Springs Connection at Walt Disney World - WDW News Today


Brightline has revealed a detailed explanation of the costs of its new rail connecting Disney Springs to the Orlando International Airport.




wdwnt.com






> (Also, given that there's been serious talk of an interchange station at Hunter's Creek, I'd like to see Brightline get an agreement with SunRail for that and then turn around and say "Now you're getting_ all_ the benefits of it, so stuff your lawsuit".


Hunter's Creek? No. Meadow Woods. Yes.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> They are stating that the Taft-Vineland route is preferred by the I-Drive businesses, but there is no discussion of there being any stop between Disney Springs and MCO regardless of the routing.
> 
> I would love to see a monorail or some sort of high capacity mass transit along International Drive between Sea World and Universal. The traffic, even right now as we ease off Covid, is horrible. Brightline isn't likely going to be that answer.


Not true. Most of the people lobbying for the northern route are also pushing for a stop at the Convention Center.

Of course, the Hunters Creek NIMBYs don't care one way or the other; they just want it someplace else.


----------



## VentureForth

This is what I Drive needs:


----------



## neroden

Looks like the "panel tunnel" (precast-segment tunnel) is going pretty fast, faster than I would have guessed. SR 520 bridge pilings are going in very slowly but they seem to be progressing.

Which things are progressing faster is a bit mysterious to me. What I'm used to with civil construction is that it's always the earthworks and foundations which take very long or unpredictable amounts of time. I remember a project in my hometown -- adding two bridges to relieve a bottleneck over a flood control channel -- where bridge abutments and piers took an entire summer to place, and then had to settle (!) for an entire year before bridge decks could be built, by which time the next year's construction season was over, thus taking the project into year three of construction. And then the entire rest of the project (bridge decks for multiple bridges and rearrangement of many roads and traffic lights, and sidewalks) took one construction season.

Anyway, it looks to me like the entire Orlando extension track will be ready (with the possible exception of the slow-moving SR-520 bridge) before the bridge replacements on the existing line are anywhere close to done. That'll be interesting. I do wonder whether Brightline will be able to beat their planned opening date for Orlando; mid-2023 or even early-2023 sounds awfully late.

They should be able to run on a new single-track bridge for sure (given that some areas will be single-tracked in final operation); whether they would be willing to run over one of the original bridges, perhaps not. So my best guess right now is that the critical path runs through the Eau Gallie River bridge. I'll repeat my previous assessment:



neroden said:


> After looking at the Brightline construction advisory of 5/2/21, I think I have a better sense of what the slowest items in the construction are.
> 
> The bridges over Eau Gallie River (Melbourne) and Turkey Creek (Palm Bay), are scheduled to have ongoing construction through Q3 2022. The bridge over the Sebastian River (Sebastian) through "2022". The others are all supposed to be done earlier: Crane Creek (Melbourne) in Q2 2022, and most other stuff is listed as finishing in 2021. Although the Loxahatchee River (Jupiter) bridge may have a second part to it based on the work description.
> 
> From Orlando to Cocoa, there's one bridge (SR 520) which has barely started, with some drainage to deal with in the area too, and the precast-segment tunnel under 528 is a slow process, but the rest of the civil construction looks likely to be done well before the end of 2021.
> 
> This definitely makes me wonder if they can get service to Orlando running earlier in 2022 than their planned end-of-2022. They'd be four bridges short -- and in each case, by then they may already have one single-track bridge and be working on the second one. This might allow an early start. It would certainly be to their benefit to get some revenue coming in from Orlando-Miami trips ASAP.



TLDR: It looks like the critical path for finishing construction runs through one of the following. I have ordered this list from most likely to least likely to be on the critical path:

Eau Gallie River bridge in Melbourne -- construction trestle barely started (two spans), pilings for first new track not started (trestle must be finished first)

Turkey Creek bridge in Palm Bay -- temporary construction trestle not even started as of end of May (but this is a short bridge... so should be quicker than Eau Gallie)

Sebastian River bridge in Sebastian -- construction trestle present, about half of pilings for first new track in place

SR 520 bridge on extension to Orlando -- still working on pilings, but most are at least partway in

Crane Creek Bridge in Melbourne -- piers for one track are done

Loxahatchee River Bridge in Jupiter -- old piers will be reused


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Brightline Reveals Costs and Route Preference for Disney Springs Connection at Walt Disney World - WDW News Today
> 
> 
> Brightline has revealed a detailed explanation of the costs of its new rail connecting Disney Springs to the Orlando International Airport.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wdwnt.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunter's Creek? No. Meadow Woods. Yes.


My bad. I mixed up the two.

Honestly, there is a "fascinating" tension on the northern route...it'd be interesting to see how everyone would react if Disney "did a deal" behind the scenes that resulted in no International Drive station for some time in spite of that routing being chosen (something that I think we could all see Disney pulling off). IIRC Disney fought to avoid that routing being used last time around...it's pretty clear they want the train to be "their" thing.

(Candidly, in a situation where the costs are close to equal and there's a Disney Springs station regardless, SR528 probably makes more sense. You could still do an interchange stop somewhere in the Boggy Creek area, and the business potential from _any _sort of transit connection at an I-Drive station is, if not similar to Disney, at least a reasonably close second between the Convention Center and the [theoretical] ability to connect up to Universal and down to Sea World. There are a decent number of hotels along I-Drive; the main "gap" in the area is access to Universal [the trolley goes to Sea World and Aquatica but not Universal].)


----------



## joelkfla

Anderson said:


> There are a decent number of hotels along I-Drive; the main "gap" in the area is access to Universal [the trolley goes to Sea World and Aquatica but not Universal].)


That will undoubtedly change when Universal opens their new park on former Lockheed Martin property, and I believe they've already said that they'll be running their own shuttle between the new park and the existing parks.


----------



## cocojacoby

Anderson said:


> _sighs_
> 
> Is there a map handy of the two routings?
> 
> (Also, given that there's been serious talk of an interchange station at Hunter's Creek, I'd like to see Brightline get an agreement with SunRail for that and then turn around and say "Now you're getting_ all_ the benefits of it, so stuff your lawsuit".



Here you go:




It would seem that the northern route may be faster but I don't see any mention of the estimated travel time anywhere.


----------



## VentureForth

So the 528 route seems to be the most direct. If an intermediate stop between Disney Springs and the airport would be placed at the convention center, it would certainly benefit Sea World and their entire complex as well as the hotels around the convention center. It's close, but not walking distance from the majority of the I-Drive attractions. So a new bus, or my proposed elevated monorail (ha!) could connect Sea World to Universal and snake through the Lockheed complex.

Ahh, the dreaming.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Not like the good old days when they could just blast a freeway through a city without asking any of the inhabitants if they would really miss their house or mind if someone put a giant concrete structure in their backyard.


----------



## jis

Brightline Now Has 1,320 Construction Workers Building Miami-Orlando Line, Confirms Resumption Of Hourly Service In Q4


Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture




www.thenextmiami.com


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> Which things are progressing faster is a bit mysterious to me. What I'm used to with civil construction is that it's always the earthworks and foundations which take very long or unpredictable amounts of time. I remember a project in my hometown -- adding two bridges to relieve a bottleneck over a flood control channel -- where bridge abutments and piers took an entire summer to place, and then had to settle (!) for an entire year before bridge decks could be built, by which time the next year's construction season was over, thus taking the project into year three of construction. And then the entire rest of the project (bridge decks for multiple bridges and rearrangement of many roads and traffic lights, and sidewalks) took one construction season.



maybe a dumb question here.

But aren't construction seasons something for the colder climatic zones where you can't reliably cast concrete for example as long as there is a risk of it freezing before it's fully cured.

Surely in Florida that's not really an issue.


----------



## VentureForth

We pretty much have rainy season from May through November. Not really, but more or less further inland, it tends to rain most every day in the Summer.



jis said:


> Brightline Now Has 1,320 Construction Workers Building Miami-Orlando Line, Confirms Resumption Of Hourly Service In Q4
> 
> 
> Miami Real Estate, Construction And Architecture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenextmiami.com



More importantly, they have announced a resumption of service in 4Q, 2021! Of course, that could be December 31st...


----------



## me_little_me

cirdan said:


> maybe a dumb question here.
> 
> But aren't construction seasons something for the colder climatic zones where you can't reliably cast concrete for example as long as there is a risk of it freezing before it's fully cured.
> 
> Surely in Florida that's not really an issue.


It is an issue in Florida.

Everyone there thinks 50 degrees is well below zero and they can't drive to work for fear of getting "colded in". Of course, Floridians can't drive anyway, if the evidence of those with Florida plates in other states is any indication.

Floridians think concrete doesn't need curing because it isn't catching - something like Covid.

Floridians think concrete will melt if poured in weather that is too hot. After all, it must be melted to make it pour-able, right?

Required disclaimer:


----------



## joelkfla

Brightline update to Orange County Board of County Commissioners meeting on 6/22/21:

*Slides*: https://occompt.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=9508045&GUID=E3B3499E-B309-488F-8BB1-8EEB50808127
Slides include a project schedule for the Tampa extension, with Disney completion Q4 2025, and Tampa completion off the chart beyond 2026. 
Another slide shows Orlando completion Q4 2022, with revenue service starting at unspecified time in 2023.

*Video*: Index
Select June 22, 2021 if not already selected, then scroll down on the right to video #7. 

The Brightline presentation ends at 34:23; the remaining hour is mostly commissioners whining about not serving the Convention Center.


----------



## NES28

I am just starting to look at this thread in late July. Brightline has been encouraging Sunrail to operate local services to Disney which would be facilitated by the shared track/station at Meadow Woods. Apparently, they are not interested in running local service in the Orlando area but would like trackage rights fees. Anyway, my question is whether a connecting track and/or shared station is feasible where 528 crosses Sunrail.


----------



## joelkfla

NES28 said:


> I am just starting to look at this thread in late July. Brightline has been encouraging Sunrail to operate local services to Disney which would be facilitated by the shared track/station at Meadow Woods. Apparently, they are not interested in running local service in the Orlando area but would like trackage rights fees. Anyway, my question is whether a connecting track and/or shared station is feasible where 528 crosses Sunrail.


Most of the discussion on this topic is over on the main Brightline thread, since it's really part of the Tampa extension rather than the Orlando extension.

A comparison of the currently proposed alignments was presented to the CFX board last week. On page 15 of the pdf attached to this post, a transfer platform between SunRail & Brightline is shown as #1, but it's south of Taft-Vineland Rd., not at 528. The current northern proposal doesn't go out the north exit of the airport to 528; it exits on the same route as the southern proposal but turns north at Sunrail, then follows Taft-Vineland west to 528.

Now, Brightline has said that they've saved space along the airport alignment for light rail tracks to the north exit, but if that ever happens it would be way in the future.


----------



## jis

According to the original pre-Brightline plans the Airport Station was given enough space for a 6 track station - 2 Express service, 2 local service and 2 light rail or some gadgetbahn. All that soace is still there. If standard SunRail stock is to be used into the airport station they will require two additional tracks with a low platform for their use. Future plans apparently call for that in the form of the proposed East-West Corridor.


----------



## NES28

jis said:


> According to the original pre-Brightline plans the Airport Station was given enough space for a 6 track station - 2 Express service, 2 local service and 2 light rail or some gadgetbahn. All that soace is still there. If standard SunRail stock is to be used into the airport station they will require two additional tracks with a low platform for their use. Future plans apparently call for that in the form of the proposed East-West Corridor.


I suppose that the local service could use cars like NJT or Caltrain with separate sets of doors for low and high level platforms.


----------



## jis

NES28 said:


> I suppose that the local service could use cars like NJT or Caltrain with separate sets of doors for low and high level platforms.


There is much to be said though about SunRail not requiring a separate fleet for this service. Since the infrastructure is all new it can be built to suit what will reduce overall cost of operation and minimize confusion for customers.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> According to the original pre-Brightline plans the Airport Station was given enough space for a 6 track station - 2 Express service, 2 local service and 2 light rail or some gadgetbahn. All that soace is still there. If standard SunRail stock is to be used into the airport station they will require two additional tracks with a low platform for their use. Future plans apparently call for that in the form of the proposed East-West Corridor.


They could always pull a "Denver" and raise the tracks at one of the platforms to supply the low-platform needs.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> They could always pull a "Denver" and raise the tracks at one of the platforms to supply the low-platform needs.


At the small stations they do not plan to have separate platform track for SFRTA. They plan to have separate platforms on the same track, so raising the track is not really a viable plan at those.

At the stations where there is a separate track there will be no shared platform between Brightline and SFRTA since there is going to be no barrier free transfer between the two. So again, the tracks can remain at the same level and the platform can be at the right height for each relative to the track.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> At the small stations they do not plan to have separate platform track for SFRTA. They plan to have separate platforms on the same track, so raising the track is not really a viable plan at those.
> 
> At the stations where there is a separate track there will be no shared platform between Brightline and SFRTA since there is going to be no barrier free transfer between the two. So again, the tracks can remain at the same level and the platform can be at the right height for each relative to the track.


I had to look up SFRTA. SFTRA = TriRail, the commuter service in the Miami area.

@neroden was making the suggestion for the unfinished platforms at OIA, to accommodate SunRail.


----------



## jis

From what I recall of the whole OIA station layout plan, SunRail was supposed to get its own two tracks with an island platform. Irrespective of platform heights, SunRail cannot share platforms with Brightline due to different security regimes used by the two. Brightline is a sealed system with airline style security barrier, albeit significantly less intrusive, whereas SunRail is an open tap and go system. It would be quite interesting to see what happens at Disney if SunRail goes there.


----------



## neroden

neroden said:


> The bridges over Eau Gallie River (Melbourne) and Turkey Creek (Palm Bay), are scheduled to have ongoing construction through Q3 2022. The bridge over the Sebastian River (Sebastian) through "2022". The others are all supposed to be done earlier: Crane Creek (Melbourne) in Q2 2022, and most other stuff is listed as finishing in 2021. Although the Loxahatchee River (Jupiter) bridge may have a second part to it based on the work description.





neroden said:


> It is very interesting that the critical path is running through the replacement of three bridges on the existing line, all of which are nonessential to service.



New Roaming Railfan video of bridge status:



These are making good progress, but the Sebastian River, Turkey Creek, and Eau Gallie River bridges still look like *easily* the last parts of the civil construction to be finished. They may be running test trains from Orlando to Cocoa (where all the bridge construction is further along!) before they even have one new track across these bridges, let alone two. If you want to keep an eye on how close they are to opening, watch these bridges.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> So the 528 route seems to be the most direct. If an intermediate stop between Disney Springs and the airport would be placed at the convention center, it would certainly benefit Sea World and their entire complex as well as the hotels around the convention center. It's close, but not walking distance from the majority of the I-Drive attractions.



I don't think anything of major significance in Orlando is within walking distance of anything else. Especially not the type of walking distance you want when you are taking small kids. This is why it will be very difficult to efficiently serve Orlando by rail without spending huge sums.

I guess if money were no issue I think the best solution would be a metro or monorail interconnecting all the attractions and main hotel complexes, convention center etc, and also connecting to Brightline. But such a system would be horribly expensive could probably never be operated at anything near profitability and is thus probably unimagineable under present circumstances. Anything else is going to be a poor compromise.


----------



## joelkfla

cirdan said:


> I don't think anything of major significance in Orlando is within walking distance of anything else. Especially not the type of walking distance you want when you are taking small kids. This is why it will be very difficult to efficiently serve Orlando by rail without spending huge sums.
> 
> I guess if money were no issue I think the best solution would be a metro or monorail interconnecting all the attractions and main hotel complexes, convention center etc, and also connecting to Brightline. But such a system would be horribly expensive could probably never be operated at anything near profitability and is thus probably unimagineable under present circumstances. Anything else is going to be a poor compromise.


There is a circulator bus (not free) called the I-Ride Trolley, which runs up and down I-Drive and Universal Dr. That would provide the connection, most likely, if there were a Convention Ctr. station. The Conventon Center, a couple of major hotels, and perhaps Universal's new park might be within walking distance, depending on the exact location of any station.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Question for the group: 
The OUC line will have a spur to connect for work to be done. Construction only or perhaps a permanent link? From what I understand freight is forbidden but could it be left in place as an alternate route? So far the construction looks temporary.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I believe the new trainsets will be delivered by that link.


----------



## Scott Orlando

chrsjrcj said:


> I believe the new trainsets will be delivered by that link.



Right. They will connect by the maintenance facility…but there is also a connection under construction out by the OUC plant on 528.


----------



## VentureForth

On a completely different thought wave...

The section between Cocoa and MCO will be class 7 trackage with a max speed of 125 mph. Why didn't they go for true HSR and build to class 8? I know the real answer is money, but what are the physical challenges to jump to the next level of 160 mph operations?


----------



## Bostontoallpoints

"what are the physical challenges to jump to the next level of 160 mph operations" Costly continuous maintainence.


----------



## jis

And expensive electrification to actually operating at 160.


----------



## Tlcooper93

VentureForth said:


> On a completely different thought wave...
> 
> The section between Cocoa and MCO .will be class 7 trackage with a max speed of 125 mph. Why didn't they go for true HSR and build to class 8? I know the real answer is money, but what are the physical challenges to jump to the next level of 160 mph operations?



In the places that can accommodate class 8, does it make sense to? Would it really effect journey time all that much, especially since the tracks aren’t electrified? Not sure diesels can achieve 160 to begin with.


----------



## Qapla

How long does it take for a train like this to accelerate to 160? On the trip from Cocoa to MCO, would there be any stops? Is that entire distance straight enough 160 operation the whole way?

Since it is only about 39± miles between Cocoa and MCO (according to the distance stated by looking online) the time savings would total about 4 minutes (according to the travel time calculator I used) if you could travel at maximum speed the entire distance (savings would be less if you stopped along the way or had to slow down from the 160 mph) - would it even be worth the added expense for that small distance ...


----------



## west point

Yes diesels could do 160. It would take higher gear ratios for traction motors and much more loco power.


----------



## joelkfla

west point said:


> Yes diesels could do 160. It would take higher gear ratios for traction motors and much more loco power.


But are they, or are you just speaking in theory? I thought 125 was the current operating limit.


----------



## cirdan

Tlcooper93 said:


> In the places that can accommodate class 8, does it make sense to? Would it really effect journey time all that much, especially since the tracks aren’t electrified? Not sure diesels can achieve 160 to begin with.



But how about just future-proofing? This can consist of choosing the alignment and curvatures in such a way as to allow higher speeds later. When you build, those things may marginally add to costs. When you want to fix them retroactively they cost much much more.


----------



## cirdan

Tlcooper93 said:


> In the places that can accommodate class 8, does it make sense to? Would it really effect journey time all that much, especially since the tracks aren’t electrified? Not sure diesels can achieve 160 to begin with.



I guess nothing is impossible, but it may be unviable.

The speed record for a diesel passenger train is AFAIK still the British HST which did mid-140mph speeds on various test runs, both as a prototype in the early 1970s and using standard sets on further test runs in the mid 1980s. And remember these were test runs, well prepared, planned and monitored. The same trains were limited to 125mph commercially.

I guess the technology has advanced since then. And maybe using underfloor distributed traction on a DMU (a bit like the diesel ICE) may allow better speeds. But it's still a huge leap to 160.


----------



## VentureForth

Amtrak is literally spending millions to try and squeeze 5 MPH here and there along the NEC to save seconds. Granted, they are already electrified.


----------



## jis

Cocoa to Orlando between the end of the Cocoa Curve and Henzelman Blvd. will be pretty flat out 125mph. Increasing to 160mph will cost a very large sum of additional money and will gain maybe 4 minutes realistically. Given how difficult and torturous it was for them to get the funding for doing what they are doing, I don;t see how realistic even an attempt to get additional funds are at this point.

And I am curious, what is so special about 160mph in open new construction? NEC has that limit because of reduced track center distance which is very very expensive to fix. Why not 186 (300kph) or 200 (320kph)?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

There are some downs to electrifying as some have pointed out, but there is some positives. At least the whole system will be new compared to the NEC and there won't be the amount of restrictions that limits speed on the line. Plus it would make everyone happy with transportation going "Green", diesel fuel ain't getting cheaper people. With that said, why not shoot for speeds higher then 160? There is one issue with that idea, is 125mph the fastest the Venture cars can go or can they go much faster then that? I would imagine, newer trainsets capable of higher speeds would need to be ordered if Brightline ever went in that direction.


----------



## joelkfla

Caesar La Rock said:


> diesel fuel ain't getting cheaper people


As I understand it, a diesel-electric is really a self-contained mobile generator. Perhaps in 10 years, something better will come along that also doesn't require the expense and ugliness of catenary. Who would have thought 10 years ago that we'd now have fully battery powered buses and streetcars?


----------



## jis

Caesar La Rock said:


> . At least the whole system will be new compared to the NEC and there won't be the amount of restrictions that limits speed on the line.


A system running 24 trains a day will be compared to the NEC? Really? You do realize that currently a significant portion is also being built with single track, which can be expanded to two tracks in the future. And the higher speed portion is only th 35 or so miles from Cocoa to OIA. The speed between Miami and Cocoa will never rise above 110mph - because - grade crossings, figuratively speaking, hundreds of them.


----------



## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> As I understand it, a diesel-electric is really a self-contained mobile generator. Perhaps in 10 years, something better will come along that also doesn't require the expense and ugliness of catenary. Who would have thought 10 years ago that we'd now have fully battery powered buses and streetcars?



maybe, who know?

IMHO the whole point of electric trains is that you save on weight, so no heavy generator set or battery packs to lug around, so all that power translates directly into acceleration. Thus the power source needs to be externalized. I believe battery streetcars are used mostly for architectural reasons when putting up catenaries might mean unacceptably disfiguring historic or beautiful locations. I don't think they are actually cheaper than electrification, except maybe in some special cases. This can still evolve of course. But I think there is also still potential to bring down the costs of electrification as many systems are over-designed. This may have to do with legacy systems versus all new systems that can be planned from scratch and use a small number of highly standardized parts and don't need to be reverse compatible to something from the 1930s.


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## NES28

125 mph is the practical limit for diesel operation, worldwide. Electrification is required to go faster.


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## Tlcooper93

For Florida and the transportation situation there, I don’t think it’s necesary for the train to operate any faster in order for it to compete well against other forms of travel. 4 minutes is not enough time to justify millions.

It’s a working theory of mine, but I don’t think there are too many cases around the world where true HSR is required to get the benefits “fast, frequent, and reliable trains.”


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## Caesar La Rock

jis said:


> A system running 24 trains a day will be compared to the NEC? Really? You do realize that currently a significant portion is also being built with single track, which can be expanded to two tracks in the future. And the higher speed portion is only th 35 or so miles from Cocoa to OIA. The speed between Miami and Cocoa will never rise above 110mph - because - grade crossings, figuratively speaking, hundreds of them.



You do realize my post was a what if situation where Brightline did electrify its route from Miami to Orlando. That's why I made the comparison between Brightline's route to the NEC, because there wouldn't be as many obstacles preventing Brightline trains from reaching and maintaining the max speed of the route. As for that higher speed section, I'm clearly aware of that by the videos I've been watching of the construction the past few months and what's been documented, so far. Also knew about the grade crossings between Miami and Cocoa, but once again a what if scenario vs. what's already planned out now. Also in response to the negatives and positives of electrification.


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## jis

Caesar La Rock said:


> You do realize my post was a what if situation where Brightline did electrify its route from Miami to Orlando. That's why I made the comparison between Brightline's route to the NEC, because there wouldn't be as many obstacles preventing Brightline trains from reaching and maintaining the max speed of the route. As for that higher speed section, I'm clearly aware of that by the videos I've been watching of the construction the past few months and what's been documented, so far. Also knew about the grade crossings between Miami and Cocoa, but once again a what if scenario vs. what's already planned out now.


No I missed that. Thanks for clarifying.

Still I don't believe Brightline will ever get the traffic the combined Amtrak and Commuter traffic has on the NEC.

And the dream of a hypothetical no grade crossing on the FECR segment at best will probably at least as much money as fixing up the NEC. And all you get is 8-12 minutes out of it. Is it worth it? But yeah good thing to dream about from a distance  And Brightline has to figure out how to recoup all that from marginal revenue for 8-12 mins.

Frankly if between Florida and the Feds that kind of money and requisite political will becomes available it would be much better spent on a new West Coast Line from Tampa to Fort Myers with extension to the North through the Village to Ocala and Gainesville onto JAX


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## Qapla

jis said:


> Frankly of between Florida and the Feds that kind o0f available it would be much better spent on a new West Coast Line from Tampa to Fort Myers with extension to the North through the Village to Ocala and Gainesville onto JAX


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## George Harris

Saying all this from the perspective of a Civil Engineer that has spent most of his working life on railway projects from streetcar to high speed:
1. There is nothing inherent in a diesel that prevents speeds above 125 mph. As noted, a diesel is primarily an electric locomotive carrying around its own source of electricity.
2. Weight on powered axles is significant not just in starting, but as speed increases, adhesion decreases. That a major reason that EMU setups are the norm in very high speed operations. Once you have passed the adhesion limits additional power does absolutely nothing for you. Think operation in heavy rains in Florida.
3. Unnecessary weight is more significant in acceleration and braking than in constant speed running, so with long distances between stops a diesel-electric is not that great a penalty.
4. Design for higher speed than initial operating speed, or even than what you think to be your highest speed ever. Overdesign particularly for curve radii, spiral lengths, and vertical curve lengths. Designing for the curve superelevation you need for the fastest ever speed does not mean you have to build it with that much superelevation to begin with. Superelevation can be increased relatively easily if the curve radii and spiral lengths allow for it. 
5. Multiple grade crossing issues can be solved by changing the railroad's track elevation. In the case of Florida, the logical thing would be to elevate the line. This solves several other issues, as well, such as trespassers, utility crossings, restrictions in cross right of way movement, etc. (By the way, anyone suggesting tunneling or lowering the railroad to allow the streets to remain at their current elevation, does not live in the real world as it is in south Florida.)

At this point, the speed of 300 to 350 km/hr (186 to 220 mph) seems to be approaching the practical limit for several aspects of railroad operation, including the decreasing adhesion with grade curve meeting the increasing power, which equals increasing adhesion required to balance aerodynamic resistance.

One thing you don't have to worry about on a high speed railway, which is also a non-existent issue in Florida anyway, is downgrade runaways on a 220 mph railroad. When you design for comfort at 220 mph, aerodynamic resistance will keep the train speed below the probably derailing speed. Of course you could probably manage it if you applied power to the max while going downgrade, but that is the same mindset that causes people to fly planes into buildings, and with an electrified railway, that can be stopped by simply shutting down the catenary for that part of the line.,


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## cirdan

Tlcooper93 said:


> It’s a working theory of mine, but I don’t think there are too many cases around the world where true HSR is required to get the benefits “fast, frequent, and reliable trains.”



I think it depends on who the train is competing against and also the distance covered.

If you're competing mainly against buses and people driving their own cars, 125mph is mostly fine. It's still not necessarily faster than driving of course because you need to factor the time to get to the station plus the inconvenience of a scheduled service versus being able to drive when it suits you.

Thus I believe that as important as the speed itself is, locating the stations wisely and in a way that maximizes accessibility for as many people as possible. I think many of the newer HSR lines in Europe made errors in this respect, with some stations located in rather pointless locations and much of the speed advantage of the train being negated in getting there in the first place.

On commuter-oriented services, much lowers speeds can still be competitive because commuters typically travel at peak times when roads are congested and driving takes a long time.

In addition you need to factor in the value of the time. So on a train you can do some work on the laptop or just relax or read the news or look out of the window, which is typically a higher quality use of time than being concentrated on the traffic around you.

When it comes to competing against airlines, speed is important. Flying may be faster from point to point but when you factor in time needed for checking in and security and other such things, trains may be able to steal an advantage on shorter haul routes. And this does not even require 125mph running. British Rail was already seriously hurting domestic flights between London and Manchester as early as the 1970s, and at this time the trains had 100mph top speed. Not yet 125mph. But this was done using a frequent service using comfortable modern trains.

But when it comes to slightly longer distances, you need to go faster than that to compete against airlines. Prior to the opening of the AVE, Barcelona to Madrid was aver 5 hours (from memory). And although the Talgo trains used at the time were comfortable, the airlines had the lion's share of the market. It took HSR taking journey times down to 2 hours and 30 minutes to reverse that trend.


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## toddinde

Tlcooper93 said:


> For Florida and the transportation situation there, I don’t think it’s necesary for the train to operate any faster in order for it to compete well against other forms of travel. 4 minutes is not enough time to justify millions.
> 
> It’s a working theory of mine, but I don’t think there are too many cases around the world where true HSR is required to get the benefits “fast, frequent, and reliable trains.”


I completely agree. Train speeds don’t only come from the top end. You can squeeze more time savings from taking 30 mph track and making it 50, and 59 mph track and making it 79 where that can be done. You also correctly point out that speed isn’t really that important. High speed rail has disadvantages too. If it bypasses lots of stops, you lose time going from the terminal to your destination. A conventional speed train making suburban stops may actually save time over a limited stop, high speed train. Reliable, speedy, conventional trains with adequate frequencies, and pleasant onboard amenities will pack more bang for the buck in most corridors.


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## jis

toddinde said:


> I completely agree. Train speeds don’t only come from the top end. You can squeeze more time savings from taking 30 mph track and making it 50, and 59 mph track and making it 79 where that can be done. You also correctly point out that speed isn’t really that important. High speed rail has disadvantages too. If it bypasses lots of stops, you lose time going from the terminal to your destination. A conventional speed train making suburban stops may actually save time over a limited stop, high speed train. Reliable, speedy, conventional trains with adequate frequencies, and pleasant onboard amenities will pack more bang for the buck in most corridors.


I agree wholly. If more money becomes available I would use it for serving additional corridors even if it takes building new trackage on new ROW, instead of trying to jack up speeds beyond 125mph. What we need to have first is to serve more unserved places first.

I believe in Florida Brightline is really trying to be more in the "conventional train with adequate frequencies and pleasant onboard amenities" rather than trying to win speed awards. Brightline West is a different matter altogether. Of course because this is the USA people don't think of 125mph trains as "conventional trains", due to the backwardness inherent in the local experience.


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## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> Amtrak is literally spending millions to try and squeeze 5 MPH here and there along the NEC to save seconds. Granted, they are already electrified.



In railroad terms, millions are small change. Big projects such as HSR cost billions.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> And expensive electrification to actually operating at 160.


JetTrain


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> And the dream of a hypothetical no grade crossing on the FECR segment at best will probably at least as much money as fixing up the NEC. And all you get is 8-12 minutes out of it. Is it worth it? But yeah good thing to dream about from a distance  And Brightline has to figure out how to recoup all that from marginal revenue for 8-12 mins.


Even if you could get rid of all the grade crossings (my first thought is elevated track from Miami to Cocoa), you will never get rid of all the draw bridges.


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## west point

Just leave the draw bridges and install passenger train only flyovers. Tri Rail did that in Fort Lauderdale building a 2 track main.. CSX uses the draw bridge which remains open except for any freight trains or if tri Rail cannot use the flyover for any reason..


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## Qapla




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## George Harris

VentureForth said:


> Even if you could get rid of all the grade crossings (my first thought is elevated track from Miami to Cocoa), you will never get rid of all the draw bridges.


You probably can get rid of most of them. Just getting the track high enough so that you could easily clear most of the streets (16-6" should be consistent minimum) means going up something on the order of 22 to 30 feet. With that you should be in the order of 30 feet or more clear of the water. Put in a long bump to go up another 20 feet or so would be no big deal. Not a freight issue either, this would fall under the description of a momentum grade and barely slow the train down. Find out how much clearance the Coast Guard wants. Generally it will be on the order of 50 feet for all but ocean going ships. If some of these weekend Admirals want more than 50 feet clear for their yachts, they need to talk to the Coast Guard about it. You might be left with a couple of waterways where ocean going shipping clearance is required, but they would have to be opened much less often as the majority of water traffic could pass under the higher structure,

Freight traffic can accept an increase in elevation change when it seems reasonable to do so. Case in point: Quite a few years ago now, when SCL replaced the Escambia Bay bridge east of Pensacola, they replaced the low wood trestle with steel draw span with a concrete multi-span bridge having enough of a bump in it, actually a long grade up and down, to provide sufficient clearance to eliminate the need for the draw span,


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## neroden

Qapla said:


>



That was a fun watch, finally seeing everything in order from one end of the line to the other. Those major bridges on the existing line are clearly going to take the longest, as I have said before.

I wonder when they're going to move the highway over the panel tunnel. I think they have to waterproof the top of the panel tunnel first.


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## Qapla

Newest Update


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## Qapla

Another Update


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## joelkfla

Quick but thorough overview of construction progress, posted by Brightline:


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## daybeers

That was a nice video!

I'm a little confused and not familiar with Florida's rail system; if one wanted to go from Miami to Orlando downtown, how would they do that using Brightline?


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## jis

daybeers said:


> That was a nice video!
> 
> I'm a little confused and not familiar with Florida's rail system; if one wanted to go from Miami to Orlando downtown, how would they do that using Brightline?


They'd transfer to a Lynx Express Bus at Orlando Airport station.



west point said:


> Just leave the draw bridges and install passenger train only flyovers. Tri Rail did that in Fort Lauderdale building a 2 track main.. CSX uses the draw bridge which remains open except for any freight trains or if tri Rail cannot use the flyover for any reason..


There is something much more spectacular being considered for the replacement of the bascule bridge on the FEC near the Brightline Fort Lauderdale Station...









Train tunnel under New River would cost $3.3 billion, but some say it’s worth it


A tunnel would cost nearly seven times more than an 80-foot bridge, but the idea is a hit with marine industry officials because it would mean less delays for boat traffic.




www.sun-sentinel.com


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## Scott Orlando

Seems the Hollywood Commissioner mentioned has no clue of the difference between FEC,FDOT, Brightline or Tri-Rail


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## Qapla

Maybe I'm a little dense ... I guess I can kinda' understand how it could possibly cost over $3 billion to build - but what would it cost $8.2 million a year to maintain ?

Also, why would Southwest Ninth Street have to be permanently closed.?


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## jis

Go to the Broward County TPO site, download the several hundred page DEIS and find the answers to most of your questions (hopefully). I could probably do it for you but I think I prefer to spend my time on other things


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## joelkfla

daybeers said:


> That was a nice video!
> 
> I'm a little confused and not familiar with Florida's rail system; if one wanted to go from Miami to Orlando downtown, how would they do that using Brightline?





jis said:


> They'd transfer to a Lynx Express Bus at Orlando Airport station.


Unless the commuter SunRail connection comes to be. It's been discussed, but if it happens, it probably won't be until the Disney extension is done, at the earliest. SunRail would share Brightline's ROW between the airport and the existing north-south SunRail line, which goes to the heart of downtown. That part of the proposed Brightline ROW is currently a freight ROW used by the Orlando Utility Commission.


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## Qapla

Another video about the airport


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## Qapla

The latest video


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## Touchdowntom9

jis said:


> A system running 24 trains a day will be compared to the NEC? Really? You do realize that currently a significant portion is also being built with single track, which can be expanded to two tracks in the future. And the higher speed portion is only th 35 or so miles from Cocoa to OIA. The speed between Miami and Cocoa will never rise above 110mph - because - grade crossings, figuratively speaking, hundreds of them.


What areas of the current route are being built single tracked? I had the impression that this would be double tracked all over. And regarding the area currently in operation Miami/Ft Lauderdale/West Palm, what is keeping the speed at 79mph? It didnt appear to be much different from the new area they are building to 110MPH speed spec and didn't know if it was track geometry or something else.


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## Tlcooper93

Touchdowntom9 said:


> What areas of the current route are being built single tracked? I had the impression that this would be double tracked all over. And regarding the area currently in operation Miami/Ft Lauderdale/West Palm, what is keeping the speed at 79mph? It didnt appear to be much different from the new area they are building to 110MPH speed spec and didn't know if it was track geometry or something else.


There are significant parts of the extension to Orlando that are single tracked, but will be double tracked as demand increases and they run more trains.


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## joelkfla

Touchdowntom9 said:


> What areas of the current route are being built single tracked? I had the impression that this would be double tracked all over. And regarding the area currently in operation Miami/Ft Lauderdale/West Palm, what is keeping the speed at 79mph? It didnt appear to be much different from the new area they are building to 110MPH speed spec and didn't know if it was track geometry or something else.


All of the upgraded line between WPB & Cocoa will be at least double-tracked. Most of the new construction between Cocoa & ORL is being built single track. Bridge abutments are being built to support double track, so when they decide to double-track those segments they'll just need to add a parallel span.

Not sure, but I think track geometry is the primary speed limiting factor between MIA & WPB, but also grade crossing protection on that section has not been upgraded to the requirements for 110 mph. I read that some curves between WPB & Cocoa are being realigned for higher speed.


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## cirdan

joelkfla said:


> All of the upgraded line between WPB & Cocoa will be at least double-tracked. Most of the new construction between Cocoa & ORL is being built single track. Bridge abutments are being built to support double track, so when they decide to double-track those segments they'll just need to add a parallel span.


From studying Roaming Railfan's videos it seems it's not just the bridge spans that would have to be added for double track, but also the earthworks.

To my knowledge, it's always more costly to add these things along an operating ROW than on a greenfield site. There would be health and safety concerns for example connected with working so close to a line being used by trains at 125mph. So any work here would probably come with disruptions and extra costs. The fact that Brightline didn't chose to at least complete the earthworks to the full profile suggest to me that any double track ambitions are set in a rather distant future.


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## jis

Since the running time on the single track segments that they have is five minutes or less, one could guess that they will think about doubling when they are getting close to net 12tph on the segment. Right now they will be starting at 2tph.


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## joelkfla

jis said:


> Since the running time on the single track segments that they have is five minutes or less, one could guess that they will think about doubling when they are getting close to net 12tph on the segment. Right now they will be starting at 2tph.


Distance traveled in 5 minutes at 125mph is about 10 mi.

So there are no single-tracked segments longer than 10 mi., or not surrounded by double-tracked segments long enough to pass at speed?


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## VentureForth

Having to stop/slow to pass on the fastest segment of the entire Brightline project will negate all the speed advantage. So, I agree. 2tph? Should be fine. 12tph? Yeah - get that double track down.


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## Touchdowntom9

joelkfla said:


> All of the upgraded line between WPB & Cocoa will be at least double-tracked. Most of the new construction between Cocoa & ORL is being built single track. Bridge abutments are being built to support double track, so when they decide to double-track those segments they'll just need to add a parallel span.
> 
> Not sure, but I think track geometry is the primary speed limiting factor between MIA & WPB, but also grade crossing protection on that section has not been upgraded to the requirements for 110 mph. I read that some curves between WPB & Cocoa are being realigned for higher speed.


I read a handful of articles online mentioning that Brightline was requesting funds to upgrade their grade crossings to prevent further accidents. Would that potentially resolve the grade crossing protection requirement and leave the door open on eventually getting up to 110mph on that segment?


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## VentureForth

Years ago, CSX eliminated almost all their grade crossings. Part of why you never hear about Tri-Rail having trespassing accidents. Don't know who paid for the upgrades. Granted, CSX (and their predecessors) is MUCH larger than FEC. So, would BRIGHTLINE be spending the money to upgrade FEC's ROW? Cities? How would they separate grade?

I know of a private passenger line in Tokyo put their entire train line underground over the period of like 5 years. It was an amazing feat! Other lines have been completely elevated - all without significant service disruptions. Obviously, the FEC can't go underground, but can it - in any economical universe - be raised in the most densely populated areas?


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## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> I know of a private passenger line in Tokyo put their entire train line underground over the period of like 5 years. It was an amazing feat! Other lines have been completely elevated - all without significant service disruptions. Obviously, the FEC can't go underground, but can it - in any economical universe - be raised in the most densely populated areas?


I think the problem is that most of the crossing accidents are not happening in the most densely populated areas, such as downtown Miami (where the line is already partially elevated) but are happening in low density car-dependent areas, where there is not really the same sort of economic case for elevation, due to the lower density of land utilization and value.

Furthermore, the FEC mainline is not there purely for Brightline, but also carries freight. Putting in elevated sections would lead to the line being much more of a roller coaster, as it goes onto and off viaduct sections as needed. A passenger train with a high power to weight ratio can probably deal with that but it could be crippling for a heavy freight train.


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## jis

cirdan said:


> I think the problem is that most of the crossing accidents are not happening in the most densely populated areas, such as downtown Miami (where the line is already partially elevated) but are happening in low density car-dependent areas, where there is not really the same sort of economic case for elevation, due to the lower density of land utilization and value.
> 
> Furthermore, the FEC mainline is not there purely for Brightline, but also carries freight. Putting in elevated sections would lead to the line being much more of a roller coaster, as it goes onto and off viaduct sections as needed. A passenger train with a high power to weight ratio can probably deal with that but it could be crippling for a heavy freight train.


In Fort Lauderdale several alternatives under consideration for the river crossing involve keeping the current track in place for freight while elevating the passenger tracks and build a new elevated Fort Lauderdale station. So in principle just because the passenger line with frequent service is elevated does not mean that freight has to run on it too. There is even a tunnel alternative.


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## Qapla

I can see the discussion of raising the tracks to remove grade crossings would "make sense" to quite a number of people while the NIMBYS would agree "as long as I don't have to look at it" or be delayed by the construction - and making enough noise to delay or kill such a project.


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## west point

jis said:


> In Fort Lauderdale several alternatives under consideration for the river crossing involve keeping the current track in place for freight while elevating the passenger tracks and build a new elevated Fort Lauderdale station. So in principle just because the passenger line with frequent service is elevated does not mean that freight has to run on it too. There is even a tunnel alternative.



You beat me to posting about the bridge or tunnel. As far as the section between Cocoa how far is it between the two sections of 2 main tracks? If a passing section is placed 1/2 way between the 2 main track sections sections only one train will be delayed at most what 5 minutes? 12 ttrains per hour ( 6 each way ( means a lot of passengers. Brightline 8-10 revenue cars means a lot of passengers per train. 600 per train means 3000 per hour. The airlines do not carry that many from MCO to south Florida, How many cars on the Sunshine toll road per hour??? #000 per hour would mean more traffic than the NEC: NYP = WASH.


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## jis

Brightline plans to capture less than 5% of the total South Florida - Central Florida traffic as was spelled out in their original EIS. That was before there was anything about Tampa. I don;t know how the numbers have changed since then. But of course Tampa is still more than 5 years away.

BTW 12 tph means 6 tph each way, and just because they can run that many does not mean they will run that many. That is why the current decision to build single track sections is a prudent one pending development of traffic justifying the second track.


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## west point

A scale of the Cocoa - Orlando track it appears that the single track length is about 28 miles. That is from west of crossing over the OUC track and Cocoa Junction where Brightline leaves the FEC. 1/2 way has Brightline crossing state route 520. That is where a bridge is built for a insert of a second bridge quickly. 

28 miles means 14 minutes of 125 MPH single track operation. 2 trains per hour each way would fit on that section with JAL precision dispatching.

A ten mile passing track at the 1/2 way point reduces single track sections to ~ 9 miles each. So 5 minutes to traverse a single track section. 5 minutes to traverse the siding. 5 to traverse the other single track section. Correction no way will that be a siding as Brightline is installing the highest speed turnout in the US which will probably be repeated for both ends of the 10 mile 2nd main track. That would get Brightline to a theoretical 6 tph. However with the probable sometimes delays on FEC northbound does not seem feasible. Maybe 4 per hour more realistic. More?? Then full 2 main tracks MCO - Cocoa.

But making the train sets full with 8 revenue cars seems more than enough capacity.


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## cirdan

west point said:


> A ten mile passing track at the 1/2 way point reduces single track sections to ~ 9 miles each. So 5 minutes to traverse a single track section. 5 minutes to traverse the siding. 5 to traverse the other single track section. Correction no way will that be a siding as Brightline is installing the highest speed turnout in the US which will probably be repeated for both ends of the 10 mile 2nd main track.


Pulling that off without slowing or stopping one of the trains will require some very precise scheduling.


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## jis

All this is probably nice theoretical discussion at least as long as only 2tph operates, since one train in each direction can possibly be scheduled with no situation where two trains are on the Orlando - Cocoa section. The 5 minute thing just provides for flexibility and recovery from exceptional situations for now.


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## VentureForth

Back to elevated tracks in the Miami - WPB area again... Interesting point about elevating only the passenger tracks. Does CSX go up and down to avoid their grade crossings? Are their viaducts under tremendous stress from CSXs activity? I don't know. I would almost rather see the entire 60 mile+ section elevated (may not be practical with river crossings). Then you have two options. If they can handle freight, then run all trains elevated, avoid all grade crossings, and lease the space under the tracks for retail. Retail/Real Estate was part of the original FEC vision for Brightline prior to all the splits, mergers and buyouts. But, running the freight at grade would certainly maintain the pre-Brightline status quo for number and duration of train crossings.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


> Brightline plans to capture less than 5% of the total South Florida - Central Florida traffic as was spelled out in their original EIS. That was before there was anything about Tampa. I don;t know how the numbers have changed since then. But of course Tampa is still more than 5 years away.
> 
> BTW 12 tph means 6 tph each way, and just because they can run that many does not mean they will run that many. That is why the current decision to build single track sections is a prudent one pending development of traffic justifying the second track.



I haven't seen any studies - I'm sure they are out there - for ridership from Miami to Tampa. My guess is that the projections of market share are split between Miami to Orlando, Tampa to Orlando and Orlando local (Preferably captured by Sunrail).


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## jis

VentureForth said:


> Back to elevated tracks in the Miami - WPB area again... Interesting point about elevating only the passenger tracks. Does CSX go up and down to avoid their grade crossings? Are their viaducts under tremendous stress from CSXs activity? I don't know. I would almost rather see the entire 60 mile+ section elevated (may not be practical with river crossings). Then you have two options. If they can handle freight, then run all trains elevated, avoid all grade crossings, and lease the space under the tracks for retail. Retail/Real Estate was part of the original FEC vision for Brightline prior to all the splits, mergers and buyouts. But, running the freight at grade would certainly maintain the pre-Brightline status quo for number and duration of train crossings.


It all boils down to where the money for elevating is going to come from. Clearly Florida Dispatching Company through its owners is not going to come up with it. The New River Bridge related elevation in Fort Lauderdale will be a public-private joint thing and it is about wealthy boat owners getting a better access to their waterway without interference from the railroad beyond the few freight trains today.

The issue about freight trains is not that they cannot ride on the viaduct but that they cannot handle the 3-4% grade that passenger trains can. Again this is about money. The higher grades allows saving of money to elevate only where necessary instead of all the way. In any case at present there is no elevation that is envisaged purely for separation from road traffic. The only major elevation envisaged is to primarily reduce interference with boat traffic, and incidentally eliminate a few grade crossings while at it.

Incidentally a few grade crossings are getting eliminated by replacing a grade crossing by a road flyover, but those are few and far between at present.


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## west point

Do not forget that TriRail also has a fly over on its track over the New River west of the FEC. They climb a steep grade to make the 92 foot free board clearance. The CSX freights still use the drawbridge there so freights have no grade. Never have heard if Tri Rail still owns the draw bridge although I was on a TriRail that used the drawbridge after the flyover was complete and normally in use..


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## VentureForth

So, here's my weekend update based on personal observations driving the 528....

Ties are laid across the entire route now. Track is installed onto the ties for all but 2 miles. They were actively working on this when I passed them, so that number could be dwindling fast. 5.7 miles (including those 2 miles without track on the ties) remain without ballast. TWO ballast trains (or one, split in two sections) still sit on either side of Innovation Way, ready to finish the job.

The anticipation is building!


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## cirdan

Just wondering, but this is probably the first purpose built intercity passenger railroad track to have been completed from scratch anywhere in the United States for many decades if not even more.

Discounting metro tracks, streetcar tracks etc. as well as short segments of interconnecting tracks or minor realignments of existing lines.


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## VentureForth

There have been other private ventures which have begun on existing ROWs and public ventures that have built brand new ROWs (IE: NM Railrunner), but I believe you are right - first private, new ROW since certainly before AmDay in 1971 and probably decades before that when private companies were pulling up track rather than laying them.


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## MARC Rider

I've read that back in the 1950s and 1960s one of the things that hammered the private railroads was property taxes, which may explain why the railroads have spent a lot of effort in getting rid of track, reducing the number of tracks on the lines they own, and so forth. How is Brightline handing this issue, and does it affect the plans they're making for their infrastructure?


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## joelkfla

MARC Rider said:


> I've read that back in the 1950s and 1960s one of the things that hammered the private railroads was property taxes, which may explain why the railroads have spent a lot of effort in getting rid of track, reducing the number of tracks on the lines they own, and so forth. How is Brightline handing this issue, and does it affect the plans they're making for their infrastructure?


I think virtually all of the new ROW is leased, from one of FDOT, CFX (the local Orlando toll agency), or the Orlando airport. The off-airport part runs along an existing toll road.


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## jis

The lease for the airport grounds RoW is from the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority (GOAA), which also owns the inter-modal center under construction adjacent to Terminal C, which incidentally has its first commercial flight due to take place this Tuesday (9/20/22).

They also have a direct temporary lease from Deseret Ranch for an Aggregate Pit area from where they have extracted Aggregate for embankments and roadbed. I don't know what they are supposed to do to restore the area before the lease ends. As you may recall additionally, some Deseret Ranch land was transferred to the CFX to be then leased long term by Brightline too.


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## west point

Orlando terminal C open waiting for Brightline to arrive.


Automated TSA lanes and an airside Disney Store: Orlando's Terminal C is now open


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## Chris I

west point said:


> Orlando terminal C open waiting for Brightline to arrive.
> 
> 
> Automated TSA lanes and an airside Disney Store: Orlando's Terminal C is now open


Better pictures here:








First look: Inside Orlando International Airport’s new high-tech $2.8 billion terminal - The Points Guy


MCO's new Terminal C is set to open on Sept. 20, and features 15 new internationally-capable gates and a new federal inspection station that will bring modern touches to America's theme park capital.




thepointsguy.com





On our last Florida trip, we flew direct to Orlando and rented a car to get down to Miami and the Keys. I think a direct airport link will have people looking at the train as an option. Personally, I'd prefer to transfer to a train, rather than deal with a layover and another flight. Hopefully they can get the Orlando commuter service or Orlando/Tampa line together in the next few years. Being able to fly in to Orlando and take a train to Universal or Disney would be great.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Orlando terminal C open waiting for Brightline to arrive.
> 
> 
> Automated TSA lanes and an airside Disney Store: Orlando's Terminal C is now open



Please note though that OIA Terminal C is distinct from the OIA Intermodal Terminal (Brightline). They are connected by a long walkway, but they are separate terminal buildings.

Also note that this thread is about Brightline and not about OIA Terminal C.


----------



## jis

Only two of the three platform tracks have been built for now at the OIA Station. The third track will be built when the extension to Tampa takes place.

Here are some photos from the Brightline OIA Station


----------



## cirdan

I love the feeling of spaciousness that the high curved roof over the platforms creates. So many modern stations are ugly, boring and uninspiring, and its so refreshing to see something different.

I'm very excited to see this opened and operating soon.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> I love the feeling of spaciousness that the high curved roof over the platforms creates. So many modern stations are ugly, boring and uninspiring, and its so refreshing to see something different.
> 
> I'm very excited to see this opened and operating soon.


It is certainly very different from the post modern rabbit's warren that one comes across distressingly often these days.

BTW, I doubt it will be operational before early next year at the earliest. The lounge and checkin areas are all one vast open space at present with a lot of construction going on. That was an area that we walked through but no photography was allowed there.

The big wall mural of a Birghtlientrain that you see in one of the photos is where the checkin counters will be. The construction of them is hiding behind it as far as I could tell. We walked in through a little door on the side of it.

Incidentally, the SunRail platforms, when they are built, will go in this area, separate from the Brightline station.


----------



## Palmland

Dropped some relatives off at Orlando airport today and was pleased to see the new terminal is open. I was surprised that Jet Blue was the only domestic airline to use it with rest being international like British Air, Lufthansa, Emirates. This could be a real plus for Jet Blue when travelers realize it would make the Brightline connection a little easier.

Since Brightline is separate but connected to Terminal C I wonder if there will be separate parking for those wanting to go to the airport only to take Brightline.


----------



## joelkfla

Palmland said:


> Since Brightline is separate but connected to Terminal C I wonder if there will be separate parking for those wanting to go to the airport only to take Brightline.


Not likely, I think, considering that Garage C is directly connected to the station, aka Intermodal Terminal Facility.

All existing Brightline stations have paid garages; there's no free parking.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Incidentally, the SunRail platforms, when they are built, will go in this area, separate from the Brightline station.


How many SunRail platforms will there be?


----------



## VentureForth

joelkfla said:


> Not likely, I think, considering that Garage C is directly connected to the station, aka Intermodal Terminal Facility.
> 
> All existing Brightline stations have paid garages; there's no free parking.


And no free parking at the airport either, for that matter.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Please note though that OIA Terminal C is distinct from the OIA Intermodal Terminal (Brightline). They are connected by a long walkway, but they are separate terminal buildings.


It's also worth noting that the tram to the rest of the airport - and from the rest of the airport to Brightline (to stay relevant to this thread) is part of the intermodal building rather than the gate terminal.


----------



## joelkfla

VentureForth said:


> It's also worth noting that the tram to the rest of the airport - and from the rest of the airport to Brightline (to stay relevant to this thread) is part of the intermodal building rather than the gate terminal.


And it's a new speedy Mitsubishi Crystal Mover, with travel time about 3.5 minutes.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

JIS - thanks for posting those photos. Looks like a nice facility, though I'm not a particularly fan of the design - I _hate_ the carpet though it is kind of interesting in a tropical way and it seems very corporate and airport-like, which of course is appropriate because it is an airport. In fact, does it adhere to the airport design standards? But it looks like a much nicer station than many, if not most, in this country and the platforms are spacious looking, as they should be! 

As a total aside I just read a review of the hotel in the old TWA terminal at JFK which was very in that style. I've been in two very nice modern train stations relatively recently in Spain (Santiago and Vigo). Wasn't impressed with the Calatrava station in Lisbon, although the concrete work was very nice on the lower levels. Madrid's airport was gorgeous - if/but very crowded, packed even - with custom made everything, even light fixtures. 

Sorry, rant over.


----------



## joelkfla

Metra Electric Rider said:


> JIS - thanks for posting those photos. Looks like a nice facility, though I'm not a particularly fan of the design - I _hate_ the carpet though it is kind of interesting in a tropical way and it seems very corporate and airport-like, which of course is appropriate because it is an airport. In fact, does it adhere to the airport design standards? But it looks like a much nicer station than many, if not most, in this country and the platforms are spacious looking, as they should be!
> 
> As a total aside I just read a review of the hotel in the old TWA terminal at JFK which was very in that style. I've been in two very nice modern train stations relatively recently in Spain (Santiago and Vigo). Wasn't impressed with the Calatrava station in Lisbon, although the concrete work was very nice on the lower levels. Madrid's airport was gorgeous - if/but very crowded, packed even - with custom made everything, even light fixtures.
> 
> Sorry, rant over.


That carpeted area is not part of the actual Brightline station, but is a small public lounge space in the Intermodal Terminal. So it is, in fact, "the airport." @jis said the actual Brightline waiting area is not built out yet; I think its decor was being designed by the same firm that did their existing stations.


----------



## cirdan

Metra Electric Rider said:


> As a total aside I just read a review of the hotel in the old TWA terminal at JFK which was very in that style. I've been in two very nice modern train stations relatively recently in Spain (Santiago and Vigo). Wasn't impressed with the Calatrava station in Lisbon, although the concrete work was very nice on the lower levels. Madrid's airport was gorgeous - if/but very crowded, packed even - with custom made everything, even light fixtures.


I very much appreciate Calatrava's work myself. I have been to the museum he built in Valencia many times.

I used to live in Zurich and am very familiar with the Stadlehofen suburban station there, which i believe was one of his early projects. The combination of organically shaped concrete and steel is phenomenal, and especially the lower level passage where most of the retail units are has a very warm and natural feel about it. It's almost like entering a hobbit hole.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, from a point of view crowd flow and crowd capacity the station has a number of bottlenecks, especially around the escalators to the platform, and the positioning of these is not really intuitive. I don't know to what extent this was Calatrava's doing or was part of the spec or an engineering decision. They are now planning a major rebuild of the station: They will add a fourth track underground and also increase and widen the passageways and improve the passenger flow situation. Although much of Calatrava's work will remain untouched, I understand the proposed modifications will fundamentally change the feel of the station. The architectural contract was awarded to a different architect and I understand Calatrava himself is up in arms over this.

I agree with you that his Lisbon station is a bit disappointing, in view of his other work.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

cirdan said:


> I very much appreciate Calatrava's work myself. I have been to the museum he built in Valencia many times.
> 
> I used to live in Zurich and am very familiar with the Stadlehofen suburban station there, which i believe was one of his early projects. The combination of organically shaped concrete and steel is phenomenal, and especially the lower level passage where most of the retail units are has a very warm and natural feel about it. It's almost like entering a hobbit hole.
> 
> Unfortunately, from what I understand, from a point of view crowd flow and crowd capacity the station has a number of bottlenecks, especially around the escalators to the platform, and the positioning of these is not really intuitive. I don't know to what extent this was Calatrava's doing or was part of the spec or an engineering decision. They are now planning a major rebuild of the station: They will add a fourth track underground and also increase and widen the passageways and improve the passenger flow situation. Although much of Calatrava's work will remain untouched, I understand the proposed modifications will fundamentally change the feel of the station. The architectural contract was awarded to a different architect and I understand Calatrava himself is up in arms over this.
> 
> I agree with you that his Lisbon station is a bit disappointing, in view of his other work.


I've never really been a fan of his - from what I understand the structural gestures cost a lot of build and are even more expensive - and difficult - to maintain. Of course, clients need to review the projects to make sure they function for their needs, which they often don't having been wowed by dramatic design or aesthetics. It seems to happen a lot on what often get called 'grand projects'...


----------



## VentureForth

On 528 now. Looks like the track is all laid between Cocoa and MCO!!

Only a few miles remain to be ballasted.


----------



## bonzoesc

VentureForth said:


> And no free parking at the airport either, for that matter.


If my fellow passengers from my ride back from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami last Saturday night are representative, none of us want Brightline passengers going from the train to the driver's seat. The bar at the Ft. Lauderdale station was bumpin', as was the first class lounge, and I'm pretty sure the cabin attendant in my car did pretty well for himself with how much product he moved in the 30 minutes I rode.

But that's intentional; places with enough people to support a deluxe train service are generally the kind of place where space is too valuable to give it away for temporary car storage. The van service wasn't bad on a Saturday morning, and while it was kind of annoying to wait ten minutes for the Metrorail home on a Saturday evening, it was cheap and easy.


----------



## jis

As for Free Parking, except as a promotion initially, I thought Brightline charged for parking unless you are traveling Premium Class. They could always arrange that even at OIA if they so choose.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> As for Free Parking, except as a promotion initially, I thought Brightline charged for parking unless you are traveling Premium Class. They could always arrange that even at OIA if they so choose.


Is it included with the fancy tickets? [I ask because that becomes a non-trivial selling point.]


----------



## joelkfla

Anderson said:


> Is it included with the fancy tickets? [I ask because that becomes a non-trivial selling point.]


I think it used to be, but is no longer (see last line in chart):


----------



## Anderson

joelkfla said:


> I think it used to be, but is no longer (see last line in chart):
> View attachment 29732


That's what I thought was the case. [They've also dropped the NARP discount, I think.]


----------



## jphjaxfl

Anderson said:


> I think it has to do with crossing gates (improvements to which would probably save FEC/BL some money and headaches _anyway_). I believe that to get over 90, you need to start improving those gates. I'm not sure that there's a lot of difference on the track side.
> 
> The other possibility is operating speed differentials if/when they add commuter service. It might just be easier to juggle trains with substantially different stopping patterns at 79 than 90 (or 110).


----------



## Anderson

bonzoesc said:


> If my fellow passengers from my ride back from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami last Saturday night are representative, none of us want Brightline passengers going from the train to the driver's seat. The bar at the Ft. Lauderdale station was bumpin', as was the first class lounge, and I'm pretty sure the cabin attendant in my car did pretty well for himself with how much product he moved in the 30 minutes I rode.
> 
> But that's intentional; places with enough people to support a deluxe train service are generally the kind of place where space is too valuable to give it away for temporary car storage. The van service wasn't bad on a Saturday morning, and while it was kind of annoying to wait ten minutes for the Metrorail home on a Saturday evening, it was cheap and easy.


Just wondering, but how much does it cost to upgrade from Class 4 to Class 5? (Also, I wonder if there might be plans to roll this under any commuter projects, so as to offload the relevant costs onto the governments? That'd be the logical thing to do, I suspect.)


----------



## jis

When Dade and Broward manage to complete their North East Corridor project there will be much cheaper and slower TrRail service between Miami Central and Fort Lauderdale (Brightline). These trains will have more stops than Brightline service. I don;t think Brightline will operate any West Palm Beach terminator service once Orlando is up and running. They barely have enough equipment to pull that off together with hourly Orlando service. Having said that, it is possible that initially they will do alternate hours Orlando and WPB terminators.

On another subject ... I learned from the Brightline track engineer that I spoke to the other day, that the curve where SR528 and SR407 merge is rated for 120mph with a super elevation of 6".


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> Fortunately none of Brightlines spacious structures come anywhere near the dysfunction that some of Calatrava's creations appear to suffer from as a cost of the structural beauty. Saarinen's creations like the TWA terminal in JFK or the Bell Labs building in Holmdel both were the opposite of dysfunctional.
> 
> Anyway, we should perhaps return this thread to Brightline and start a separate thread to discuss Calatrava if there is much interest in continuing that discussion.


Love the Bell Labs building (and some of his furniture, either for that or his IBM buildings was great - not jus the famous stuff)! 

Lets not, this will be it for design...


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> When Dade and Broward manage to complete their North East Corridor project there will be much cheaper and slower TrRail service between Miami Central and Fort Lauderdale (Brightline). These trains will have more stops than Brightline service. I don;t think Brightline will operate any West Palm Beach terminator service once Orlando is up and running. They barely have enough equipment to pull that off together with hourly Orlando service. Having said that, it is possible that initially they will do alternate hours Orlando and WPB terminators.
> 
> On another subject ... I learned from the Brightline track engineer that I spoke to the other day, that the curve where SR528 and SR407 merge is rated for 120mph with a super elevation of 6".


I was sort-of suspecting the alternation plan, but that has to do with projected load patterns in their reports. Of course, I'd have to look back at their reports to see where 1.2m pax/yr lands vs their projections for the south segment...but also where it lands vs capacity. I recall noting that the projected loads WPB-FLL were such that hourly service with 7-car sets was going to be grossly insufficient.

Connected to this: A few years ago I was doing hand-counts of train seat availability prior to departure (the old website design made that easier to do) and IIRC at the pre-pandemic loads the peak-hour trains were often quite packed. Given the short trains they have now (four cars) and so on, an average of 3500 pax/day translates into a bit over 100 pax/train...but some of those off-peak trains have far fewer pax. Raw capacity right now is probably around 8-10k/day (32*248=7936, but there's obviously some seat turnover, etc.), but that's an idealized figure unlikely to manifest in reality - the 2348 out of MIA will rarely be packed in the way a rush hour train would be.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

Are there any known current bottlenecks on the Brightline route between WPB and Miami? Just curious because I rode that route a month ago and we had a couple of instances where we slowed down considerably, but never passed another train and I don't think there was a jam in terms of a train ahead of us. Certainly wasn't an uninterrupted 80mph ride but didn't seem like there were any curves that warranted such a slowdown either. Just curious if anyone knows


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## west point

Touchdowntom9

Are there any known current bottlenecks on the Brightline route between WPB and Miami?

The draw bridge over the New Riveer in FLL. Lots of boat.


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## jis

110mph testing in Brevard County this weekend (10/29-30/22)









Still on track: Brightline testing train speeds in Brevard County


It will take place along a 13-mile section of track, spanning 18 railroad crossings




www.wftv.com


----------



## jis

According to posts elsewhere on various boards from usually reliable sources the timeline for work on the Cocoa - Orlando section is as follows:

- Loaded ballast train run between Orlando and Cocoa Monday - Friday and ramp up the speed to 50mph starting in December.

- Begin full corridor testing and certification in December. 

- January will be 110-125mph testing.

- Open system by Valentine's Day.


----------



## Palmland

Since Brightline seems to want to make sure they address 'last mile' choices at destination I wonder what their plans are for MCO. While there will certainly be those flying in or out of there, how about those going to the Orlando area destinations. I would hope they would work with Orlando's Lynx transit to have a dedicated shuttle to the nearest Sunrail station and perhaps the theme parks.


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> Since Brightline seems to want to make sure they address 'last mile' choices at destination I wonder what their plans are for MCO. While there will certainly be those flying in or out of there, how about those going to the Orlando area destinations. I would hope they would work with Orlando's Lynx transit to have a dedicated shuttle to the nearest Sunrail station and perhaps the theme parks.


Or they could choose to have their own fleet contracted with someone. I am not sure Lynx would be of the level of service that one comes to expect of Brightline. 

I am almost certain that they will do a packaged trip to the theme parks.

I am not so sure they will do anything special with Lynx or Sunrail since the Lynx bus to OIA, including the one to/from Sandlake Road Sunrail would be available anyway at the Terminal C Intermodal Center at its regular schedule, and will provide a connection to Sunrail on the days it runs such as it does anyway. 

Of course they will most likely have their standard last mile service that anyone could take to Sandlake Road Sunrail.


----------



## railbuck

And of course there are rental cars available at MCO, more conveniently that at most train stations in the US.


----------



## jis

railbuck said:


> And of course there are rental cars available at MCO, more conveniently that at most train stations in the US.


Hopefully the Rental Car Shuttles will start pick up/let down at the Intermodal Center in addition to the Terminal C pickup that they have now. Many here fail to realize that the Intermodal Center is a terminal quite distinct from Terminal C and you basically have to walk through the Terminal C parking structure to get from one to the other since the planned direct walkway has not been built yet.


----------



## Palmland

I didn't realize that Sunrail had decent connections to Terminal A. About 15 -20 minutes ride from Sand Lake Sunrail. So in my case I can use public transit - after a 15 minute drive to Debarry, 1 hour Sunrail to Sand Lake, 15 minutes to the airport. So, about 2 hours including waiting time. Not ideal, but at least it can be done. - as long as you go on weekdays.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Palmland said:


> Since Brightline seems to want to make sure they address 'last mile' choices at destination I wonder what their plans are for MCO. While there will certainly be those flying in or out of there, how about those going to the Orlando area destinations. I would hope they would work with Orlando's Lynx transit to have a dedicated shuttle to the nearest Sunrail station and perhaps the theme parks.


Mears offers shuttles (large bus) to the Disney hotels so that’s always an option if you are staying at a Disney resort.


----------



## McIntyre2K7

Palmland said:


> Since Brightline seems to want to make sure they address 'last mile' choices at destination I wonder what their plans are for MCO. While there will certainly be those flying in or out of there, how about those going to the Orlando area destinations. I would hope they would work with Orlando's Lynx transit to have a dedicated shuttle to the nearest Sunrail station and perhaps the theme parks.



So there's already LYNX service from MCO to SeaWorld/Universal. 

LYNX Route 11 serves the Sand Lake Rd SunRail Station during peak hours (5:30am-8am and 4pm-7pm M-F) every 30 minutes. 
LYNX Route 111 services the Sand Lake Rd SunRail Station as well as SeaWorld from MCO. Service runs every 30 minute peak service/60 minute non peak service. 

You can jump on SunRail at Sand Lake and get off at the Orlando Amtrak station. Then jump on Route 40 to get to Universal. 


I know Brightline has a shuttle service but I thought it was limited to like 5 or so miles from the station.


----------



## joelkfla

McIntyre2K7 said:


> So there's already LYNX service from MCO to SeaWorld/Universal.
> 
> LYNX Route 11 serves the Sand Lake Rd SunRail Station during peak hours (5:30am-8am and 4pm-7pm M-F) every 30 minutes.
> LYNX Route 111 services the Sand Lake Rd SunRail Station as well as SeaWorld from MCO. Service runs every 30 minute peak service/60 minute non peak service.
> 
> You can jump on SunRail at Sand Lake and get off at the Orlando Amtrak station. Then jump on Route 40 to get to Universal.


You'd have to be a real hardcore transit lover to want to deal with that mess.


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: About two dozen posts on grade crossing elimination in South Florida have been moved to its own thread as this is a subject in its own standing quite independent of Brightline. It is an issue with TriRail and also with any new commuter service on the North East Corridor a.k.a. FECR line.






South Florida Grade Crossing elimination possibilities


There is a reason Tri Rail has fewer grade crossing incidents. The I-95 upgrade that paralled the ex CSX Tri Rail track had many streets and roads fly over the Tri Rail tracks. That was the easy way to do it as those roads did a fly over I-95 and at same time over the RR tracks. Maybe we need...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please continue the grade crossing issues discussion in this new thread and reserve the Brightline Orlando extension thread to discuss Brightline construction and service extension to Orlando related issues.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


----------



## jis

Testing 110mph in Martin and St. Lucie Counties...









Brightline pleased with Treasure Coast testing as trains reach speeds of 110 mph


Brightline officials have begun testing their trains on the Treasure Coast. The trains will be traveling at maximum speeds of 110 mph throughout the weekend.




www.wptv.com


----------



## crescent-zephyr

joelkfla said:


> You'd have to be a real hardcore transit lover to want to deal with that mess.


Some of us are out there!


----------



## VentureForth

Perhaps more of an ICYMI.... They are using the new bridge and ROW over Crane Creek. They are now working on the 2nd line. Melbourne Ave is back open.

This could have happened months ago, but I just noticed last week.


----------



## VentureForth

Palmland said:


> Not ideal, but at least it can be done. - as long as you go on weekdays.


I think they're talk about running on weekends when Brightline opens. IDK if that's when BL makes it to MCO, or to the Resorts (through the Sandlake station) or all the way to Tampa.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> According to posts elsewhere on various boards from usually reliable sources the timeline for work on the Cocoa - Orlando section is as follows:
> 
> - Loaded ballast train run between Orlando and Cocoa Monday - Friday and ramp up the speed to 50mph starting in December.
> 
> - Begin full corridor testing and certification in December.
> 
> - January will be 110-125mph testing.
> 
> - Open system by Valentine's Day.


sounds quite ambitious to me. but i hope they can pull it off.

any idea when the signals will go live?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> sounds quite ambitious to me. but i hope they can pull it off.
> 
> any idea when the signals will go live?


On the Cocoa - Orlando section, I suspect it will be by December. The track ballasting is mostly done and they should be able to run a train from Cocoa to Orlando imminently. Frankly I don't doubt about the ability to get the Cocoa - Orlando segment into service by Feb. I think what is ambitious is getting the West Palm Beach - Cocoa segment in service by that date. There is still a lot of bridge work to be completed. @VentureForth may have a better feel for it than me since he seems to have been tracking progress more closely than me.


----------



## VentureForth

I think the 2nd main line between Cocoa and WPB is a LOT slower to be completed than the Orlando extension from what I've seen. That being said, it does appear that many of the bridge upgrades have completed ONE main, and they are working on the 2nd Main. I don't know what they expect their initial TPH to be, but it wouldn't surprise me to see 110 MPH between Cocoa and WPB in areas soon. It'll just be on one track for now. I guess they aren't too worried - after all, Cocoa to MCO is only 1 track with some passing sidings. Double track the whole way is still years to come, I feel.


----------



## jis

They will be 1tph each way for quite a while since that is all that they have rolling stock for.


----------



## west point

some slower schedules can be had with the various bridgs that are just 1 main track for now. It may be july 2023 before all bridges are 2 main tracks except for the one briddge that is not schedued to be worked on.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> They will be 1tph each way for quite a while since that is all that they have rolling stock for.


In the foreseeable term, I can't see Brightline going much above 1.5tph north of WPB (or thereabouts). You _might_ see a "spare" train at rush hour or something like that (the train would have to come from one of the other runs, but they'll clearly do this), but I'm also not sure that even with JAX, we'd get a full 1tph MIA-JAX.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

joelkfla said:


> You'd have to be a real hardcore transit lover to want to deal with that mess.



It's not that bad as the airport isn't far from the Sand Lake Road station. The bus only took a good ten minutes to get there when I last did it and quite a lot of people do those type of commuters based on personal experience. Changing the subject back to Brightline, I also doubt it'll open by Valentine's Day too. Realistically, maybe around Summer is when they'll start service. Summer in this state is one of the busiest times of the year, so the passengers they'll get will not only be locals, but tourists from all over the country and the world.


----------



## VentureForth

Caesar La Rock said:


> It's not that bad as the airport isn't far from the Sand Lake Road station.


...so long as they are on schedule. I've tried using them where one bus was running 29 1/2 minutes late and the next bus was literally right behind it.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

VentureForth said:


> ...so long as they are on schedule. I've tried using them where one bus was running 29 1/2 minutes late and the next bus was literally right behind it.



You got lucky, I've been in several situations where the buses showed up even later then that or didn't show up at all, but I didn't have to use Sunrail during those times as I was heading home in those situations. A bus driver several years ago admitted to everyone on his bus that I was on that Lynx routinely misses trips, due to driver shortages. They're just really good at hiding the elephant in the room. One of the reasons I miss old man Skoutelas, it may have been odd to paint the buses in the various colors of skittles, but he knew what he was doing at least.

As for Brightline, some of you called this. The construction looks to be finished by early 2023 as indicated in this article.









EXCLUSIVE: Brightline on track to bring passengers to Orlando 2023


There was hope that construction would be wrapped up by the end of this year, but it is now set to be finished by early 2023.




www.wftv.com


----------



## JWM

I find the double track issue somewhat amusing. Before the FEC strike in 1963 that ended through passenger service and then all passenger service, the FEC had double track all along that route. It was torn up over a number of years. That being said, the roadbed, ballast and welded rail, single track or not, was some of the best in the country for fast freight trains.


----------



## jis

JWM said:


> I find the double track issue somewhat amusing. Before the FEC strike in 1963 that ended through passenger service and then all passenger service, the FEC had double track all along that route. It was torn up over a number of years. That being said, the roadbed, ballast and welded rail, single track or not, was some of the best in the country for fast freight trains.


It is back to double track now south of Titusville, except for one short segment on a bridge in St. Lucie. (and a few segments yet to be completed) and it is generally 110mph (being certified progressively) between West Palm Beach and Cocoa with the exception of several PSRs at bridges and curves.


----------



## JWM

jis said:


> It is back to double track now south of Titusville, except for one short segment on a bridge in St. Lucie. (and a few segments yet to be completed) and it is generally 110mph (being certified progressively) between West Palm Beach and Cocoa with the exception of several PSRs at bridges and cgeurves.


Thanks. Did they replace the New River Bridge in Ft. Lauderdale?


----------



## jis

JWM said:


> Thanks. Did they replace the New River Bridge in Ft. Lauderdale?


That will be a while. There is a Draft EIS with several alternatives - 

1. just double track bridge and leave it at that
2. new medium clearance lift bridge
3. new high clearance fixed bridge
4. tunnel under the river

Now the horse trading begins about which one the city wants and which one is affordable. Naturally the cost rises as you go down that list. Ideally the city prefers the last one. My guess is realistically probably the third one will eventually happen. The single track ground level I think will be kept as is for freight since the high bridge alternative involves 3-4% grade.


----------



## JWM

jis said:


> That will be a while. There is a Draft EIS with several alternatives -
> 
> 1. just double track bridge and leave it at that
> 2. new medium clearance lift bridge
> 3. new high clearance fixed bridge
> 4. tunnel under the river
> 
> Now the horse trading begins about which one the city wants and which one is affordable. Naturally the cost rises as you go down that list. Ideally the city prefers the last one. My guess is realistically probably the third one will eventually happen. The single track ground level I think will be kept as is for freight since the high bridge alternative involves 3-4% grade.


If memory serves me correctly, there is a road tunnel for U.S. 1 and Las Olas close by. Of course, the tunnel is the most expensive option. The original bridge was double tracked at one point, so that would be the least expensive. A 3% to 4% grade even for Brightline is not ideal, I think. Thank you for bringing me up to date on this.


----------



## blueman271

JWM said:


> If memory serves me correctly, there is a road tunnel for U.S. 1 and Las Olas close by. Of course, the tunnel is the most expensive option. The original bridge was double tracked at one point, so that would be the least expensive. A 3% to 4% grade even for Brightline is not ideal, I think. Thank you for bringing me up to date on this.


There is a tunnel for US-1 under the New River.


----------



## daybeers

jis said:


> and it is generally 110mph (being certified progressively) between West Palm Beach and Cocoa with the exception of several PSRs at bridges and curves.


It will be interesting to see how well they did on superelevation and what the speed restrictions are. I imagine average speed West Palm Beach-Orlando will be into the 90s.


----------



## jis

daybeers said:


> It will be interesting to see how well they did on superelevation and what the speed restrictions are. I imagine average speed West Palm Beach-Orlando will be into the 90s.


On the line carrying double stack freight they won't be as aggressive with super-elevation as they are on the passenger only Cocoa - Orlando segment.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> On the line carrying double stack freight they won't be as aggressive with super-elevation as they are on the passenger only Cocoa - Orlando segment.


How much super-elevation would there be - I've gotten the impression that the overall route is fairly straight - is that not correct?


----------



## jis

Metra Electric Rider said:


> How much super-elevation would there be - I've gotten the impression that the overall route is fairly straight - is that not correct?


Oh no, lots of curves here and there, usually not too severe barring a few. Just open up on Google Map and see for yourself.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

jis said:


> Oh no, lots of curves here and there, usually not too severe barring a few. Just open up on Google Map and see for yourself.


Good suggestion - very interesting. Much "curvier" than I'd realized - I just assumed it was fairly straight like a lot of roads in FL. Not mountain railway curvy, but still.


----------



## jis

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Good suggestion - very interesting. Much "curvier" than I'd realized - I just assumed it was fairly straight like a lot of roads in FL. Not mountain railway curvy, but still.


It is similar to US Rt. 1 which parallel each other quite a ways.


----------



## west point

"IF" passenger demand is so large that 1 TPH is not enough Brightline can combine 2 trainsets to carry the extra loads. Once all the 2nd main track is complet from Palm 'beach to Cocoa then it might be able to go to 2 TPH ?? Note I do not see that much demand that quickly. However my many acuqaintenances in the TPA - COCOA region disagree with me. Having to drive I-75, Turnpike, or I-95 especially to MIA airport has apparently burned a lot of them out.

The lack of a Cocoa station has a couple persons I know very upset.


----------



## GDRRiley

west point said:


> "IF" passenger demand is so large that 1 TPH is not enough Brightline can combine 2 trainsets to carry the extra loads. Once all the 2nd main track is complet from Palm 'beach to Cocoa then it might be able to go to 2 TPH ?? Note I do not see that much demand that quickly. However my many acuqaintenances in the TPA - COCOA region disagree with me. Having to drive I-75, Turnpike, or I-95 especially to MIA airport has apparently burned a lot of them out.
> 
> The lack of a Cocoa station has a couple persons I know very upset.


they do not have enough equipment to run coupled sets, maybe on weekends they could get 1 extra sets free, really though it that becomes a regally need more they should just order some more coaches, they are fairly cheap


----------



## cirdan

GDRRiley said:


> they do not have enough equipment to run coupled sets, maybe on weekends they could get 1 extra sets free, really though it that becomes a regally need more they should just order some more coaches, they are fairly cheap


I agree. Two locomotives on a four coach train is already an overkill. Four locomotives for eight coaches would be overly lavish. I expect they will progressively add coaches as ridership grows. The idea being that they could go to seven coaches, so I assume the locomotives have the power to handle that comfortably.

Not being able to add or remove coaches on the fly is a slight drawback of course. But I assume Brightline have thought this through and decided that the flexibility isn't worth it.


----------



## VentureForth

Caesar La Rock said:


> As for Brightline, some of you called this. The construction looks to be finished by early 2023 as indicated in this article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EXCLUSIVE: Brightline on track to bring passengers to Orlando 2023
> 
> 
> There was hope that construction would be wrapped up by the end of this year, but it is now set to be finished by early 2023.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wftv.com


This was Jr. High journalism at its best. I think technically _construction_ will end this year, but yes, I think most here believe in revenue service starting in 1Q 2023. Also, they say BL connects with _commuter_ service in Miami, but it's only the light rail system that's co-located. I consider commuter rail to be Tri Rail which I don't think will be using Miami Central for at least a couple years.



jis said:


> It is back to double track now south of Titusville, except for one short segment on a bridge in St. Lucie. (and a few segments yet to be completed) and it is generally 110mph (being certified progressively) between West Palm Beach and Cocoa with the exception of several PSRs at bridges and curves.



I don't think much of the new track is completed or open yet, but they're getting there!



JWM said:


> If memory serves me correctly, there is a road tunnel for U.S. 1 and Las Olas close by. Of course, the tunnel is the most expensive option. The original bridge was double tracked at one point, so that would be the least expensive. A 3% to 4% grade even for Brightline is not ideal, I think. Thank you for bringing me up to date on this.



Even if you could get BL to accept a 3-4% grade, the freights still use the ROW, too.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> This was Jr. High journalism at its best. I think technically _construction_ will end this year, but yes, I think most here believe in revenue service starting in 1Q 2023. Also, they say BL connects with _commuter_ service in Miami, but it's only the light rail system that's co-located. I consider commuter rail to be Tri Rail which I don't think will be using Miami Central for at least a couple years.


Even then I think it's a stretch to say it _connects_. The commuter service would just share the same building. For it to _connect _there would have to be meaningful _connections_, as in people arriving on one type of train and leaving on the other. That raises the question of how many people would ride Brightline south into Miami only to catch a commuter train going back more or less the way they had come. There may be special cases of people doing that of course but i don't think it's a significant market.

People connecting to light rail will be much more significant and meaningful, and so I assume that it is this that the authors were implying.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Even if you could get BL to accept a 3-4% grade, the freights still use the ROW, too.


The EIS does not include freight operation on the elevated RoW. They won't. The current single track at ground level would be retained with its moveable bridge for the few freights. Only frequently operating passenger trains with high power to weight ratio would use the elevated line if it is built that way. And BTW, Brightline is fine with 3-4% grade.

There is a precedent for this already on the TriRail Line crossing the South Fork of the same river a bit further upstream. The freight line is at ground level with a moveable bridge whereas the double passenger track is on a fixed bridge at the same level as the adjacent highway.


----------



## GDRRiley

cirdan said:


> I agree. Two locomotives on a four coach train is already an overkill. Four locomotives for eight coaches would be overly lavish. I expect they will progressively add coaches as ridership grows. The idea being that they could go to seven coaches, so I assume the locomotives have the power to handle that comfortably.


they can easily pull 7-8 coaches by themselves if your okay with mediocre acceleration


cirdan said:


> Not being able to add or remove coaches on the fly is a slight drawback of course. But I assume Brightline have thought this through and decided that the flexibility isn't worth it.


open gangways are worth it and they can add or remove a coach it ~30 mins if they really need to.


----------



## jis

GDRRiley said:


> they can easily pull 7-8 coaches by themselves if your okay with mediocre acceleration
> 
> open gangways are worth it and they can add or remove a coach it ~30 mins if they really need to.


They do not plan to create random subfleets with random number of coaches. They will have standard fixed consists. When they are upgrading their fleet by adding a car to each consist there will be a period with two different configurations of consists, but that would be it. Or so said their operations guy the other week when we visited their OIA facilities and got to closely inspect one of their 2nd generation consists.


----------



## Arctifox

cirdan said:


> I expect they will progressively add coaches as ridership grows. The idea being that they could go to seven coaches, so I assume the locomotives have the power to handle that comfortably.


I thought that that was the long-term goal anyway and the reason why Brightline decided to go for two locomotives? Not sure where I heard that but it was several years ago around the time they started their service between Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

VentureForth said:


> This was Jr. High journalism at its best. I think technically _construction_ will end this year, but yes, I think most here believe in revenue service starting in 1Q 2023. Also, they say BL connects with _commuter_ service in Miami, but it's only the light rail system that's co-located. I consider commuter rail to be Tri Rail which I don't think will be using Miami Central for at least a couple years.


Journalism in general these days is not the best, especially in this state. With that said, Tri-Rail does intend to connect with BL regardless, so they're essentially right in that respect. As for BL's revenue service date, I also could see it happening in Q1 2023 if testing goes smoothly.


----------



## jpakala

In Stuart, FL area (visiting from MO). Heard bridge when Brightline starts (running to MCO) to be closed 45 minutes & open 15, so boaters are objecting to this. Anybody know more (seems solvable)?


----------



## west point

Maybe someone involved with these decisions might not know the rules of the road (waterway )?


----------



## joelkfla

west point said:


> Maybe someone involved with these decisions might not know the rules of the road (waterway )?


I think that's unlikely. If I'm not mistaken, changes to bridge opening schedules or procedures must be coordinated with the Coast Guard.


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts discussing general issues of terminology and definitions like High Speed Rail, Commuter Rail, Heavy Rail, Light Rail etc. have been consolidated and moved to a new thread at






Service type terminology and speed definitions discussion


People connecting to light rail will be much more significant and meaningful, and so I assume that it is this that the authors were implying. There is no Light Rail anywhere near Miami Central, or in Miami for that matter, if one is using the standard definitions used by the FTA and FRA. There...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please post such discussion to this new thread and keep the Brightline thread to discuss Brightline Orlando extension construction and service inauguration issues.

Thank you for you understanding, cooperation and participation.


----------



## joelkfla

Orange County sales tax surcharge for transportation has been defeated at the polls. I don't know how this affects the Sunshine Corridor and Brightline extension to I-Drive & the Disney area.


----------



## Touchdowntom9

jis said:


> It is back to double track now south of Titusville, except for one short segment on a bridge in St. Lucie. (and a few segments yet to be completed) and it is generally 110mph (being certified progressively) between West Palm Beach and Cocoa with the exception of several PSRs at bridges and curves.


Sorry, what is PSR?


----------



## jis

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Sorry, what is PSR?


Permanent Speed Restriction.


----------



## Anderson

joelkfla said:


> Orange County sales tax surcharge for transportation has been defeated at the polls. I don't know how this affects the Sunshine Corridor and Brightline extension to I-Drive & the Disney area.


I don't know if anything was tied to anything there, but this is the first I heard of that referendum, too.

[I feel like they should consider coming back in two years on this one if inflation cools - this was _not_ a good year for pushing anything folks would be likely to see show up at the supermarket.]


----------



## VentureForth

Anderson said:


> I don't know if anything was tied to anything there, but this is the first I heard of that referendum, too.
> 
> [I feel like they should consider coming back in two years on this one if inflation cools - this was _not_ a good year for pushing anything folks would be likely to see show up at the supermarket.]


Though your sentiment is accurate, fun fact: Florida doesn't tax groceries.  But, yes, timing was horrible. Ironically, sales tax revenue SHOULD increase significantly due to inflation of all other goods and services, provided volume of sales remain constant. It would be interesting to see if volume of sale decreased proportionately to increase in prices.


----------



## Brian_tampa

I saw this CFX Board Meeting (Dec. 8) agenda document online and also an Orlando Business Journal article today referring to it. I edited the pdf file to just the Brightline presentation out of almost 2000 pages of meeting items.

Highlights:
86% complete for phase 2
$4.5B total cost for phase 1 and 2
7 of the 10 trainsets will be serviced at the VMF in Orlando every night. I assume that means 3 trainsets will be at the RRF in WPB every night to service late arriving and early departing trains.
Beachline/SR528 section - all track and structures completed in January/February 2023
125mph testing along SR528 starting in January 2023


OBJ item: Orlando service will not start until late summer 2023 at the earliest.


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> I saw this CFX Board Meeting (Dec. 8) agenda document online and also an Orlando Business Journal article today referring to it. I edited the pdf file to just the Brightline presentation out of almost 2000 pages of meeting items.
> 
> Highlights:
> 86% complete for phase 2
> $4.5B total cost for phase 1 and 2
> 7 of the 10 trainsets will be serviced at the VMF in Orlando every night. I assume that means 3 trainsets will be at the RRF in WPB every night to service late arriving and early departing trains.
> Beachline/SR528 section - all track and structures completed in January/February 2023
> 125mph testing along SR528 starting in January 2023
> 
> 
> OBJ item: Orlando service will not start until late summer 2023 at the earliest.


The start of service sliding _again_ (I think we were hearing Valentine's Day a few weeks back, and I thought they were shooting for Christmas 2022 early this year?) is frustrating.

If "all track has been laid" and "all structures have been completed", what's left? (Best guess is signals or something like that)

The "three trainsets at WPB" bit _roughly _lines up with my expectations (I might have expected four there to accommodate the extra rush hour train into MIA). This would suggest (to me) a timetable that looks like this:
-First train out of WPB: Sometime around 0500 (maybe a few minutes before)
-First train out of OIA: 0500 (arriving at MIA around 0800, so it can turn to be the 0900 train back out)
-First train out of MIA: 0600

[I'm going with the view that you probably want/need a train into Orlando that arrives by around 0900. Even if you presume a lack of business travel (not a safe assumption), (1) folks will be using these trains to get to OIA for flights [DL should consider re-hubbing...] and (2) you'll have tourists that want to get their full day in at Disney/Universal, and those tend to open around 0900-1000.]


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> If "all track has been laid" and "all structures have been completed", what's left? (Best guess is signals or something like that)


Several months of testing and remediation of any problems for getting FRA certification for 125mph operation is what remains.

Then again, it is not like all track work has been completed along the FECR route along the coast. It has not. Some bridges are yet to be completed around Brevard County as far as I can tell. Also there is the detail of testing 110mph and grade crossing operations at that speed along the shore line. Quite a bit of it remains to be completed.


----------



## Brian_tampa

jis said:


> Several months of testing and remediation of any problems for getting FRA certification for 125mph operation is what remains.
> 
> Then again, it is not like all track work has been completed along the FECR route along the coast. It has not. Some bridges are yet to be completed around Brevard County as far as I can tell. Also there is the detail of testing 110mph and grade crossing operations at that speed along the shore line. Quite a bit of it remains to be completed.


I agree as the Wabtech I-ETMS system to my knowledge has never been certified for 125mph operation. There very well could be several months of delay for that alone. 

Is there any new long double set of bridges actually completed at this time? I can't think of any. I think that even the Jupiter drawbridge is still being worked on, at least the sections leading up to the draw. I need to check the original construction schedule but I believe the bridges are late. 

The bridges and PTC testing/certification process are the main reasons why the opening has been pushed back. I want to say that back in the summer of 2019 after the PAB's were sold allowing for construction to begin, Brightline estimated start of service to Orlando by end of 2022.

Given the pandemic and all that it impacted, only 7 or so months of delay isn't too bad considering what everyone involved in construction has gone through since early 2020. In my job, I have had small 1-5 million dollar jobs delayed 7 months due to parts supply issues!


----------



## Anderson

Brian_tampa said:


> I agree as the Wabtech I-ETMS system to my knowledge has never been certified for 125mph operation. There very well could be several months of delay for that alone.
> 
> Is there any new long double set of bridges actually completed at this time? I can't think of any. I think that even the Jupiter drawbridge is still being worked on, at least the sections leading up to the draw. I need to check the original construction schedule but I believe the bridges are late.
> 
> The bridges and PTC testing/certification process are the main reasons why the opening has been pushed back. I want to say that back in the summer of 2019 after the PAB's were sold allowing for construction to begin, Brightline estimated start of service to Orlando by end of 2022.
> 
> Given the pandemic and all that it impacted, only 7 or so months of delay isn't too bad considering what everyone involved in construction has gone through since early 2020. In my job, I have had small 1-5 million dollar jobs delayed 7 months due to parts supply issues!


And now, per a link in the other thread (albeit with a vanishing article), we're apparently on to "late summer/early fall"...

I'd be a lot more impressed if all of the delays hadn't come up at the last minute (i.e. if they'd announced a six-month delay in the timeline in early 2021, or even late 2021, I think that'd have gotten a shrug). But _all _of the slide has been during CY22. Now, some of this might simply have been them not being terribly on-the-ball with updating their public timetables, but it feels like the project has been caught in some sort of time warp where it is consistently about 6-8 months away from completion. If anything, we might now be _further away _from anticipated completion now than we were six months ago.


----------



## jis

Well, when mid to late in 2021 and early 2022 people even on this forum were enthusiastically prognosticating that they might be done by the third quarter of 2022, it was quite obvious to those of us living close to it that 2023 was the earliest for such, and maybe later.

The good news though is that they just got the last girder on the second Crane Creek Bridge installed just the other day. I have not recently looked at where Eu Gallie Creek, Turkey Creek and Sebastian River stand.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Several months of testing and remediation of any problems for getting FRA certification for 125mph operation is what remains.


What is different in terms of certification for 125 mph versus say 100 or 80 mph?
Besides the basic proof that the speed can be achieved in safety and all signaling and safety systems function correctly for trains at such a speed?
Is there anything there that takes significantly longer to certify or calls for additional steps in the certification?


----------



## Anderson

cirdan said:


> What is different in terms of certification for 125 mph versus say 100 or 80 mph?
> Besides the basic proof that the speed can be achieved in safety and all signaling and safety systems function correctly for trains at such a speed?
> Is there anything there that takes significantly longer to certify or calls for additional steps in the certification?


I suspect it is more "This equipment has only been tested to 80 mph yet" than anything. @jis can correct me on this if I'm wrong.


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> What is different in terms of certification for 125 mph versus say 100 or 80 mph?
> Besides the basic proof that the speed can be achieved in safety and all signaling and safety systems function correctly for trains at such a speed?
> Is there anything there that takes significantly longer to certify or calls for additional steps in the certification?


The FRA regulation states that certification of 80mph or 100mph does not require specific testing (except signals and PTC). Proof that the tolerances are met is enough to get certification. For 125mph and above merely meeting tolerances is not enough. Each individual segment has to be certified based on test results.

Actually, even for a 120mph curve with unusual amount of super-elevation, it will probably require special certification of safety. Also FRA itself sees this as a very new thing as this is the first segment outside of the NEC being certified for 125mph anywhere in the US, and also first regular diesel operation at over 110mph. Just a matter of gaining experience on the job which adds a little to the time required. Knowing Brightline, they will probably run a full but non-commercial schedule after FRA gives the go-ahead, for a week before inauguration.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> and also first regular diesel operation at over 110mph.


What difference should it make if the traction is diesel or electric? Surely the safety requirements to be demonstrated and boxes to be ticked are going to be the same?


----------



## jis

cirdan said:


> What difference should it make if the traction is diesel or electric? Surely the safety requirements to be demonstrated and boxes to be ticked are going to be the same?


Well, they also said what difference does it make if we run an SDP40F and an E-60 at 79 and 110mph. Afterall boxes are ticked and all that, and then they started falling off tracks all over the place. After that E60 never operated at anything over 90mph and were withdrawn way earlier than originally intended, replaced by AEM-7s, and the SDP40F was completely withdrawn soon, replaced by F40PHs. Actually many early F40PHs were essentially rebuilt SDP40Fs, the innards repackaged in a new Bo-Bo frame. Stuff happens that are discovered only during extensive testing and operation.


----------



## Brian_tampa

Anderson said:


> And now, per a link in the other thread (albeit with a vanishing article), we're apparently on to "late summer/early fall"...
> 
> I'd be a lot more impressed if all of the delays hadn't come up at the last minute (i.e. if they'd announced a six-month delay in the timeline in early 2021, or even late 2021, I think that'd have gotten a shrug). But _all _of the slide has been during CY22. Now, some of this might simply have been them not being terribly on-the-ball with updating their public timetables, but it feels like the project has been caught in some sort of time warp where it is consistently about 6-8 months away from completion. If anything, we might now be _further away _from anticipated completion now than we were six months



This is the link to the source material for The Next Miami article that was widely quoted/attributed in the rail press. The OBJ was my source as well for the post I made here last Friday (before TheNextMiami article came out) stating that startup would be delayed until late summer. Perhaps the TheNextMiami article vanished do to an issue with copyright and fair use of the other publication's work? 

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2022/12/09/brightline-orlando-expansion-construction.html


----------



## west point

The Brightline announcement maybe hinted at a reason. I suspect that it may be a lack of one or more critical parts. The shortage at Caltrain may point to signal parts problem but only speculation.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> The Brightline announcement maybe hinted at a reason. I suspect that it may be a lack of one or more critical parts. The shortage at Caltrain may point to signal parts problem but only speculation.


Of course simple explanations like we still have to complete bridges, double tracking and ballasting the new tracks along the FECR alignment and testing 110mph operations through zillions of grade crossings and sealed corridor operation is a completely inadequate explanation for a 3 to 6 month push back to inauguration. 

Frankly, the early 2023 date came out of the expected completion of construction date for the OIA multimodal station AFAICT. The assumption somehow was that all the complex traack work would be done by then. When we visited the OIA station with the FECRS group they basically said service will start sometime in 2023 without commuting to anything more than that. And this was now many months back.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Of course simple explanations like we still have to complete bridges, double tracking and ballasting the new tracks along the FECR alignment and testing 110mph operations through zillions of grade crossings and sealed corridor operation is a completely inadequate explanation for a 3 to 6 month push back to inauguration.
> 
> Frankly, the early 2023 date came out of the expected completion of construction date for the OIA multimodal station AFAICT. The assumption somehow was that all the complex traack work would be done by then. When we visited the OIA station with the FECRS group they basically said service will start sometime in 2023 without commuting to anything more than that. And this was now many months back.


I don't think all this double tracking has to be complete prior to MCO service. They can certainly start with only one track available with the existing sidings on the existing ROW.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> I don't think all this double tracking has to be complete prior to MCO service. They can certainly start with only one track available with the existing sidings on the existing ROW.


I don't think even the full 125ph certification will be done before April-May at the earliest, which pushes service start to after that anyway, since I doubt they will start service without the full speed on the Orlando segment, even if they choose to do some single track operation along the shore. Incidentally we were told that they will not start with substantial single track operation on the shore, but of coourse such things can change when push comes to shove.


----------



## Anderson

jis said:


> Knowing Brightline, they will probably run a full but non-commercial schedule after FRA gives the go-ahead, for a week before inauguration.


Oh, good! Floridians will have a week to get used to trains slamming into their SUVs at 110 before the start of service!


----------



## Qapla

If people would obey the signals and gates and quit running the barricades, they would not be on the tracks to get hit ... it is not the trains fault that the cars get hit - it is the idiot car drivers.


----------



## Brian_tampa

The FRA has released Brightline's PTC testing plan for the Orlando to Cocoa section. Below is a link to the website that has the test documents I have attached to this comment. I haven't had a chance to review them as it was just released this morning. The public comment period is 60 days. So PTC testing will not begin until March at the very earliest, and probably not until several months after the comment period is over.

Regulations.gov


----------



## Touchdowntom9

Watched a few videos of Brightline recently and was wondering if anyone knows if Brightline is using both of their locomotives for traction currently or is it used as one for traction and one for HEP? Is there any downside to using both for traction? Would think it would help them hit their 110/125mph goals with the new routes but wasn’t sure if there was regulation or other issues to consider


----------



## jis

Touchdowntom9 said:


> Watched a few videos of Brightline recently and was wondering if anyone knows if Brightline is using both of their locomotives for traction currently or is it used as one for traction and one for HEP? Is there any downside to using both for traction? Would think it would help them hit their 110/125mph goals with the new routes but wasn’t sure if there was regulation or other issues to consider


Both are used for traction. Usually the front one is used for HEP too.


----------



## joelkfla

Universal Orlando today filed for creation of a quasi-governmental agency, the Shingle Creek Transit Utility Community Development District. The district will plan, finance, construct, operate, own and maintain a new Orange County Convention Center SunRail station.

The Orlando Sentinel says that Universal property will be the only property included in the district, so Universal will be the only property owner paying in fees.









Universal Orlando announces partnership for SunRail Station near Orange Country Convention Center and Epic Universe theme park


Orlando’s Right Rail coalition and Universal Orlando Resort today announced significant progress toward realizing the vision of commuter rail connectivity throughout Central Florida – one of the fastest-growing regions in the nation – with the creation of the Shingle Creek Transit Utility Community




www.insideuniversal.net













Universal Orlando Plans Regional Rail Station for Epic Universe






www.themeparkinsider.com


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## jis




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## joelkfla

jis said:


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I hate fast cuts!


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## Palmland

The Orlando Sentinel has some more details. This link may be behind a paywall but here is an excerpt.
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Brightline has been steadfastly coy about its start date for service from South Florida to Orlando, saying only that it will occur in 2023.
"The station takes the luxury amenities Brightline is known for to new heights featuring an upscale retail experience with convenient in-station shopping and its Mary Mary Bar, serving hand-crafted cocktails and lite bites,” Brightline said in a statement. “The signature sit-down bar is positioned at the far end of the station with a stunning panoramic view overlooking the train platform where guests can leisurely watch as trains arrive and depart the platform.”
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Now that's a bar I could enjoy.


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## VentureForth

jis said:


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Kinda just like all the other Brightline stations...


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