# Buying AGR points



## Ronbo (Mar 12, 2016)

I am sure that this has been discussed before, but I couldn't track down a thread. I am curious if the offer from Amtrak to buy extra points is a good deal or not, compared to either taking a trip, or buying from a partner online thru the shopping mall. I don't have the AGR credit card, so that doesn't fit into the equation. Thanks for any feedback. Good bang for the buck?

Ron

Bainbridge Island, WA


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Mar 12, 2016)

Before AGR 2.0 (the new AGR), it was a good deal. Many are now saying it's not a good deal since point redemptions are now cost based, not zone based.

But if you need to pad your AGR account, xx% more can't be that bad a thing, can it?

I got the offer too, but my AGR account is in pretty good shape right now and my bank account isn't, so I'll probably ignore it this time.


----------



## the_traveler (Mar 12, 2016)

Just for information - You do *NOT* need to use the AGR credit card on the Points for Shopping portal to earn AGR points. You can use ANY credit card to pay. It just that by using the AGR credit card that you will earn 1 point/$ for the purchase additional. However, if you prefer (say) hotel points and you have a hotel branded credit card that gives (say) 10 hotel points/$, you can use that credit card to pay. You would earn AGR points for the amount of the purchase from the portal, and then you would earn hotel points for using the credit card.


----------



## TinCan782 (Mar 12, 2016)

I look at buying points as a way of "saving up" for future trips. That said, I know there are those who will pop up saying there are better ways to "save". Perhaps not as good a deal now than it was prior to the current but like pointed out by AmtrakBlue, you may want to just pad your account. This past promo, I passed on purchasing points for my account but, I did purchase points on my wife's account.

We earn very few points via Amtrak travel; most of our points are generated via our AGR credit cards and use of the shopping portal and supplemented by points purchases. We tend to plan and book our trips a year or so out and have an idea of how many points will be needed to accomplish the Amtrak portion of the trip. Once at our destination, hotel accommodations, food, etc. are put on our AGR credit cards to generate points for future trips. An upcoming trip this fall is wrapped around a cruise (second time). Amtrak was booked months ago under the old zone system. With the BofA AGR credit card, I'm getting two points per dollar by paying for the cruise and hotel accommodations before and after the cruise...points for next year's trip! The Chase AGR card only offered one point per dollar.

The value of points purchases is harder to calculate now with the redemption based on the dollar cost of the ticket.


----------



## City of Miami (Mar 12, 2016)

FrensicPic said:


> The value of points purchases is harder to calculate now with the redemption based on the dollar cost of the ticket.


That's not my impression. The new system seems much more straight forward. The redemption value of an AGR point is $.0289 if you just divide the cost in dollars by the number of points required to redeem a trip. How much does it cost each to purchase those points? Is it more or less? There is the answer to whether it is cheaper to pay cash or points. It's probably pretty much the same.

Now we know sometimes the number of points required for the same dollar value is higher on certain trips than others - holidays and high volume days etc.

Personally I stopped buying points several years ago except when 50% bonus was offered which iirc brought the cost down to about $.018. My points cost me nothing coming from Amtrak travel or general credit card use.


----------



## TinCan782 (Mar 12, 2016)

City of Miami said:


> That's not my impression. The new system seems much more straight forward. The redemption value of an AGR point is $.0289 if you just divide the cost in dollars by the number of points required to redeem a trip. How much does it cost each to purchase those points? Is it more or less? There is the answer to whether it is cheaper to pay cash or points. It's probably pretty much the same.
> 
> Now we know sometimes the number of points required for the same dollar value is higher on certain trips than others - holidays and high volume days etc.
> 
> Personally I stopped buying points several years ago except when 50% bonus was offered which iirc brought the cost down to about $.018. My points cost me nothing coming from Amtrak travel or general credit card use.


Actually, what I meant was the value of making a points purchase, not the value of the points themselves! That can be pretty well quantified. The point value (purchased,earned, or redeemed) is pretty well established. And I agree with your comment: "My points cost me nothing coming from Amtrak travel or general credit card use."


----------



## Ronbo (Mar 12, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your feedback, very informative and excellent suggestions. I am relatively new at this AGR game! Hopefully I will be able to put your ideas to good use.


----------



## me_little_me (Mar 12, 2016)

City of Miami said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> > The value of points purchases is harder to calculate now with the redemption based on the dollar cost of the ticket.
> ...


It's not that straight forward because the points a trip "cost" you may be higher than the $.0289/per point value as has been repeatedly pointed out here. In addition, you don't get the discount for AAA/Senior, etc. so the cost per point is higher.

Personally, I'm no longer buying any points. When the discount for $$ is a better deal, I'll pay for that portion in cash and use the points for times when they are actually a good deal or for taking trips I wouldn't take otherwise because of the price.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Mar 12, 2016)

FrensicPic said:


> I look at buying points as a way of "saving up" for future trips. That said, I know there are those who will pop up saying there are better ways to "save".


Keep in mind that you're buying a currency which is only valued by a single service provider and will _never_ increase in value. In fact your points are virtually guaranteed to _decrease_ in value over and over again the longer you hold them. And that was true even before AGR2 came around and decimated the value of points for most long distance travel. At this point I'm hard pressed to think of a _worse_ method for saving up for a future trip.


----------



## TinCan782 (Mar 12, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> > I look at buying points as a way of "saving up" for future trips. *That said, I know there are those who will pop up saying there are better ways to "save".*
> ...


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Mar 12, 2016)

FrensicPic said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > FrensicPic said:
> ...


 Yes I saw that and I still think it's important to point out that your "saving" scenario doesn't merely result in a poor return. Over a long enough timeline it's virtually guaranteed to result in a _negative_ return. Knowing that Amtrak is under a constant threat of operational meddling and budgetary reductions the potential risk could include the practical loss of all savings. Which means best case you'll get even money (requires buying and immediately using points during a bonus period) and worse case you could end up losing everything (suspension/retirement of intended route, dissolution of AGR). Those odds are bad enough that they should not be called "saving" in my book, with or without quotes.


----------



## the_traveler (Mar 13, 2016)

I just redeemed under 2.0 for BC (using a 2x1 café/BC car) for under 1/2 of what it would have cost under 1.0! And if I chose coach, it was under 20% of the 1.0 cost! So I'm happy with it.


----------



## shelzp (Mar 14, 2016)

Under the current AGR I think it's a good idea to buy points if you need a few more for a specific trip but not simply to 'stock up'.

In the past I'd purchase during the extra 50% sale but that doesn't make sense for me since the program changed. I get many points through shopping and also with my credit card but the entire system feels different and not in my favor. That being said I admit that I've booked three trips that took considerably less points with this new system than if they'd been booked under the old one. One is for a three zone bedroom trip that was barely 40000 points which under the old system would have been 60000. Another trip was for a two zone in a Roomette which was about 14000 points instead of the old 20000. But when the price was low I used to pay cash for those trips instead of using points.

I guess the biggest change is that you cannot count on being able to book a last minute trip without thinking about the point cost. I've paid cash for many Amtrak trips and that won't change but now my AGR trips involve more planning and I do miss the freedom we had with the previous program.


----------



## tomfuller (Mar 17, 2016)

If you have the need/desire for some new shoes or boots, go through the AGR website to get to Shoebuy. I just got myself a new pair of Sorel boots for $100.

They are usually $130. They earned me 8 points/$ and I've got a great pair of winter boots that I needed.


----------



## Anderson (Mar 18, 2016)

Right now, absent a sale that would put the cost per point under about $0.02/point, in light of the handling of the devaluation and the variably present "penalty fares" I would not buy points. Basically I'd demand a premium beyond the initially advertised $0.029 given both the Acela redemption penalty and the fact that at times tickets can cost as much as 2x what was initially advertised.


----------



## willem (Mar 18, 2016)

What Anderson said, plus the fact that redemptions are calculated based on the adult fare, even if one is eligible for a discount fare.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Mar 18, 2016)

So far as I can tell there are no mathematical reasons to buy points anymore. There are only uninformed emotional reasons to keep buying points.


----------



## jebr (Mar 18, 2016)

To top off an account before booking a reservation? If there happens to be a sale in which points are cheaper than cash, and the points are being used right away for a specific purpose?

It's a lot less likely under AGR 2.0 for buying points to be advantageous, but there are times where it's the best option available or the stars align and it works out to be the best option.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Mar 18, 2016)

jebr said:


> To top off an account before booking a reservation?


Did Amtrak abandon the points + cash option? If they did then point taken.



jebr said:


> If there happens to be a sale in which points are cheaper than cash, and the points are being used right away for a specific purpose?


AGR2's monkey points have extremely limited acceptance, come with indirect blackout dates in the form of punitive exchange rates, and are predestined to lose value relative to other forms of payment over time. As a result their cost should be substantially cheaper than other forms of payment which have none of the aforementioned limitations. The fact that Amtrak is pricing their points at or above the equivalent cash cost, even when discounted or bonused, removes _nearly_ every remaining incentive for buying them directly. If people stop buying points under the current purchase/redemption rates maybe Amtrak will sweeten the deal in the future. Or at least we can hope.


----------



## Ryan (Mar 18, 2016)

Cash+points is still coming, and was always planned for after the initial rollout.

Buying points is the functional equivalent in the meantime.


----------



## me_little_me (Mar 18, 2016)

Ryan said:


> Cash+points is still coming, and was always planned for after the initial rollout.
> 
> Buying points is the functional equivalent in the meantime.


Initial rollout? Wrong terminology. They didn't roll it out. They rolled us over with their unannounced changes.


----------



## Dan O (Mar 20, 2016)

So there is no points plus cash if one is short on points for a trip?


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Mar 20, 2016)

Dan O said:


> So there is no points plus cash if one is short on points for a trip?


Not yet, as far as I know.


----------



## me_little_me (Mar 20, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Dan O said:
> 
> 
> > So there is no points plus cash if one is short on points for a trip?
> ...


Unless one buys separate tix for the trip. You know you can't use points when using multi-city option because it only builds a cash price.


----------



## Ryan (Mar 20, 2016)

Dan O said:


> So there is no points plus cash if one is short on points for a trip?


For now, you have to do it the "hard way", and purchase the needed points as a separate transaction.


----------



## Dan O (Mar 21, 2016)

Ryan said:


> Dan O said:
> 
> 
> > So there is no points plus cash if one is short on points for a trip?
> ...


Darn. I thought that was a "feature" of AGR 2.0. I am going on a cross country trip next year w/ the family and would have had enough points under 1.0 but just figured I'd make up the difference w/ cash. Hmm. Perhaps it will be worked out by next year. If not, I will have to buy some points or figure out how to use the most points and pay cash for a leg or two.


----------



## Ryan (Mar 22, 2016)

It is, it's just not implemented yet.


----------



## Carolina Special (Mar 22, 2016)

So what's the holdup?


----------



## AmtrakBlue (Mar 22, 2016)

Carolina Special said:


> So what's the holdup?


Probably computer programming.


----------



## CCC1007 (Mar 22, 2016)

Arrow?


----------



## me_little_me (Mar 22, 2016)

Carolina Special said:


> So what's the holdup?


They are too busy changing the 2.0 rules they told us about which turned out to be false.


----------



## Anderson (Mar 23, 2016)

On the one hand you'd think they could formally put something ersatz together as a stopgap. Yes, I know, small department, etc., but at some point you can develop a kludge that achieves the rough goal (e.g. only allow points-and-cash purchases in $50 or $100 increments for the time being).

On the other hand...as noted this has been a complete and utter disaster from virtually every perspective (PR, rollout, honesty, etc.). On some level absolutely _none_ of the changes, even the website overhaul, were actually _needed_...and the pile of half-truths was utterly insulting.

But I digress...


----------



## Ryan (Mar 23, 2016)

The effort required to do that isn't any different from just doing it all the way.

But don't let reality get in the way of your kvetching.


----------



## RSG (Mar 24, 2016)

Dan O said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Dan O said:
> ...


I called the AGR service center in early January (about two weeks prior to the startup date of AGR 2.0) and the Points + Cash option was one of the questions I asked about. The AGR representative noted that they had heard that was an option, but candidly admitted that AGR reps had not been told much about the changes---even as soon as days before the program was to be implemented. I got the impression that the changes were a work-in-progress, and from what I have seen and the resulting comments on AU, I tend to think that was by design and that perhaps further revision and tweaking as the year goes on will probably be the norm, even perhaps as a result of customer kvetching.


----------



## RSG (Mar 24, 2016)

FrensicPic said:


> I look at buying points as a way of "saving up" for future trips. That said, I know there are those who will pop up saying there are better ways to "save". Perhaps not as good a deal now than it was prior to the current but like pointed out by AmtrakBlue, you may want to just pad your account. This past promo, I passed on purchasing points for my account but, I did purchase points on my wife's account.


I am generally in agreement with that philosophy. Last fall, I needed to take an unexpected trip and at the time I needed to purchase a ticket in order to guarantee accommodations, my credit card was experiencing issues which prevented the transaction. I could either make a special trip to the nearest staffed Amtrak station in neighboring state---or simply redeem AGR points. So I did the latter for the outbound portion of the trip. Instead of literally having to pay cash and being treated like a potential terrorist for doing so, I got the VIP treatment from the AGR service center (though I know there are exceptions, every time I have had to deal with them has been very pleasant, unlike the regular reservations call center, where its a crapshoot at best).
One can yap about it being a poor investment or an investment in the future equivalent of drachma, but it does have a tangible current value and can be the only expedient way for purchasing travel. As such, I plan on taking advantage of the current points purchasing opportunity and replenishing my points used.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Mar 24, 2016)

RSG said:


> One can yap about it being a poor investment or an investment in the future equivalent of drachma, but it does have a tangible current value and can be the only expedient way for purchasing travel. As such, I plan on taking advantage of the current points purchasing opportunity and replenishing my points used.


My advice is only intended for readers who consider investing to be a logical math based financial decision. I have no intention of trying to sway people who "invest" based on their love for a hobby and/or their emotional desires.


----------



## Bigval109 (Mar 25, 2016)

Some how, it seems to me that buying points is a lost. When I consider the increase in points cost, the devalued points value when it comes to getting the reward you want, I just can't see the point of buying them.


----------

