# My Amtrak Experience.



## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

I have always liked the train. I took one ten years ago from New Orleans to Los Angles. It was about a 2 day trip. We really enjoyed it. We just took the Crescent from New Orleans to Washington and didn't really like it at all. I know Amtrak is government owned and has no competition. It really showed on this trip. We had sleepers of course and the service was just terrible. Hot bottled water was the only thing we could drink without having to go to the lounge car. The bedding was terrible. The sheets must have been about 10 thread county and the bedding nothing more than a small foam pad. Service was always with a frown and half hearted. The food was terrible. I think Amtrak is missing the boat on why people would go with them rather than fly. You really should be pampered as much as possible on a train. The trains themselves need to updated. They are old, dirty and poorly designed. I'm sorry to say that next time we take a trip I will be flying.


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## MrEd (Jun 22, 2010)

no coffee and juice in your car ? Its normally located across from attendants room.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

For the same price as a first class domestic ticket, you will get pampered for 4 hours.

On Amtrak you will be given all the basics for 24. What you make of it is your business.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

MrEd said:


> no coffee and juice in your car ? Its normally located across from attendants room.


Nope just hot bottled water. Yep right across from the attendant. Plus we had to ask permission from him to get the hot bottled water!


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> For the same price as a first class domestic ticket, you will get pampered for 4 hours.
> On Amtrak you will be given all the basics for 24. What you make of it is your business.


Ah that's the Amtrak attitude.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > For the same price as a first class domestic ticket, you will get pampered for 4 hours.
> ...


If you want pampered, I suggest you look into purchasing some private varnish.

It will only set you back about, oh, sixty grand.

It costs money to be pampered for two days y'know? Amtrak is Amtrak, it isn't the Orient Express. We kind of had the American Orient Express, whatever happened to them.

Oh yeah, bankruptcy.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


You must be an Amtrak employee. Expecting more than hot bottled water for a 26 hour trip is hardly being pampered. Why not have a variety of things to drink and oh yea cold. What is varnish? The only varnish I know of goes on furniture. Amtrak is keeping you for a extended period of time they need to do more than provide you with hot water and a thin pad to sleep on. To heck with them. I rather be treated like cattle for a few hours than a day and night. I'm flying until they do more with their service.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 22, 2010)

Normally I find myself in agreement with most Amtrak detractors, but this post fails to hit the mark.



Jack Boudreaux said:


> I have always liked the train. I took one ten years ago from New Orleans to Los Angles. It was about a 2 day trip. We really enjoyed it.


Trains change, we change, and a decade old memory is ripe for rose colored glasses. I expect more today than I did a decade ago. Since then I've flown to Europe and Asia and seen firsthand what _modern_ train systems are like. After that it's hard to be impressed with virtually _anything_ Amtrak does.



Jack Boudreaux said:


> I know Amtrak is government owned and has no competition. It really showed on this trip. We had sleepers of course and the service was just terrible.


Most modern train systems are owned or at least subsidized directly or indirectly by the national and/or local governments. So are some airlines and many airports.



Jack Boudreaux said:


> Hot bottled water was the only thing we could drink without having to go to the lounge car.


So you asked and the SCA refused to bring you anything else?



Jack Boudreaux said:


> The bedding was terrible. The sheets must have been about 10 thread county and the bedding nothing more than a small foam pad. Service was always with a frown and half hearted. The food was terrible. I think Amtrak is missing the boat on why people would go with them rather than fly. You really should be pampered as much as possible on a train. The trains themselves need to updated. They are old, dirty and poorly designed. I'm sorry to say that next time we take a trip I will be flying.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I fail to see how flying gets you better thread counts or happy faces or full-hearted service. If you want to be pampered then maybe you could have chartered a private rail car that had a chance of meeting your unresearched expectations. Amtrak is little more than a bus on rails, just like it was ten years ago. *shrug*


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Included hot meals, hot coffee, cold juice, sometimes you get a really god TAS like Gul who will pamper you. (He makes GREAT mimosas, given his limited resources.)

Usually the time the service is acceptable. Sometimes it is phenomenal. Other times it sucks.

Varnish, in other words, private cars where you can put in whatever amenities you wish to have. Wine coolers and down pillows, Egyptian cotton sheets, whatever.

I'd rather pay money to make my own adventure then have to pay money to feel violated, cramped, and generally non-human.


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## guest (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> I have always liked the train. I took one ten years ago from New Orleans to Los Angles. It was about a 2 day trip. We really enjoyed it. We just took the Crescent from New Orleans to Washington and didn't really like it at all. I know Amtrak is government owned and has no competition. It really showed on this trip. We had sleepers of course and the service was just terrible. Hot bottled water was the only thing we could drink without having to go to the lounge car. The bedding was terrible. The sheets must have been about 10 thread county and the bedding nothing more than a small foam pad. Service was always with a frown and half hearted. The food was terrible. I think Amtrak is missing the boat on why people would go with them rather than fly. You really should be pampered as much as possible on a train. The trains themselves need to updated. They are old, dirty and poorly designed. I'm sorry to say that next time we take a trip I will be flying.


Unfortunately, you hit upon the most glaring defect in Amtrak service: the consistent inconsistency of service, esp. in the sleepers where you are paying an arm and a leg for the trip, unless you have enough Amtrak Guest Reward points (and even there, you've paid in other ways to earn them).

We took the Southwest Chief, Empire Builder and Coast Starlight recently. The Southwest Chief service was so-so, the diner the equivalent of a Denny's, the hot water kaput in the sleepers, but the SCA very friendly and helpful. The Empire Builder was a waste of money from the get-go: surly waiters, balky lights, toilet and doors in sleepers, an all-but-non-existent SCA until the arrival in Portland where he took our bag out to the platform and waited for a tip. (I hope he remained surprised that entire day when his hand returned to his side empty.) The Coast Starlight was a dream, though, with a great SCA, a room without defects, and food and dining waiters the equivalent to a nice restaurant.

But our bottom line is the same as yours: until you can be assured of consistent service, why shell out thousands of dollars (in our case) on a crap shoot?

The apologists for Amtrak, and there are many on this forum, should try and figure out a way to get Amtrak to offer reliable, consistent service rather than setting up a straw man in airline service to defend the rail system. The only thing Amtrak has going over airlines in most cases is the lack of security--and if that changes some day, no one will be riding Amtrak unless it ups its quality.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

And before you reply, let me just say this is perhaps the silliest thing I have read on these boards...



> Amtrak is keeping you for a extended period


Amtrak isn't keeping you anywhere. Did they handcuff you to the train? If the service is so abominable that you can't stand it one second longer, then get off. Trust me, nobody is going to stop you from short boarding.


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## sunchaser (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> I have always liked the train. I took one ten years ago from New Orleans to Los Angles. It was about a 2 day trip. We really enjoyed it. We just took the Crescent from New Orleans to Washington and didn't really like it at all. I know Amtrak is government owned and has no competition. It really showed on this trip. We had sleepers of course and the service was just terrible. Hot bottled water was the only thing we could drink without having to go to the lounge car. The bedding was terrible. The sheets must have been about 10 thread county and the bedding nothing more than a small foam pad. Service was always with a frown and half hearted. The food was terrible. I think Amtrak is missing the boat on why people would go with them rather than fly. You really should be pampered as much as possible on a train. The trains themselves need to updated. They are old, dirty and poorly designed. I'm sorry to say that next time we take a trip I will be flying.


I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience.

I would suggest that you call Amtrak, hold for a live agent, ask to be transferred to Customer Relations. Tell them all about it, make sure you give dates, ticket or reservation # if you have it & the name, if you remember, of the Sleeping Car Attendant.

While I have not had vast experience with riding Amtrak, there were some issues with our first train ride. I called them & they sent out a voucher. About 5 months had elapsed between our first experiences & the next one. It was much improved, & we were impressed.

I do agree they really need to replace the bedding & padding too.

Amtrak is attempting to refurbish & purchase new equipment.

The 'stimulus funds' have provided funds to rebuild/refurbish damaged equipment, but no new purchases.

Congress must approve any funding, & at this time they have not responded to these requests to purchase new equipment. Please come back & let us know the results after you call them.

FYI, this board is not connected in any way to Amtrak, it's a discussion board about Amtrak. (just in case you didn't know that, not trying to be rude or anything)

I hope you try again, & have a better result!!


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

guest said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > I have always liked the train. I took one ten years ago from New Orleans to Los Angles. It was about a 2 day trip. We really enjoyed it. We just took the Crescent from New Orleans to Washington and didn't really like it at all. I know Amtrak is government owned and has no competition. It really showed on this trip. We had sleepers of course and the service was just terrible. Hot bottled water was the only thing we could drink without having to go to the lounge car. The bedding was terrible. The sheets must have been about 10 thread county and the bedding nothing more than a small foam pad. Service was always with a frown and half hearted. The food was terrible. I think Amtrak is missing the boat on why people would go with them rather than fly. You really should be pampered as much as possible on a train. The trains themselves need to updated. They are old, dirty and poorly designed. I'm sorry to say that next time we take a trip I will be flying.
> ...


Exactly. The Amtrak fan boys or employees above don't get it. We did pay an arm and a leg for a sleeper. What I meant by being pampered were sheets that were not paper thin so you could see the material on the pillow and foam pad that about a million other people have slept on. I got a sleeper so we would not have to deal with coach. So if I want a coke at 9:00 I have to walk to the "Lounge Car" and deal with the folks I didn't want to have to deal with? Much needed room for improvement on Amtrak. It sucks. A good example how government usually makes things worse.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> And before you reply, let me just say this is perhaps the silliest thing I have read on these boards...
> 
> 
> > Amtrak is keeping you for a extended period
> ...


Dummy, I paid a premium to ride on Amtrak. They should give me some service. If I would have got off at Atlanta would they have refunded me the rest of my trip? Trust me, if they suck you need to let them know. You sound like a typical employee of Amtrak. What do you do for a living?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> The Amtrak fan boys or employees above don't get it.


I may be a fan of passenger rail but I'm hardly an Amtrak fanboy. Have you seen my other posts?



Jack Boudreaux said:


> A good example how government usually makes things worse.


Yeah, if only the government had stayed out and let passenger rail fail completely. Then you'd have nothing to complain about would you? Maybe if you had a clue of how well government funded trains can work in places like Japan, Germany, and France you might not sound so ignorant.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

daxomni said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > The Amtrak fan boys or employees above don't get it.
> ...


You are the ignorant one. When you pay out your nose for a room on a train you should be reasonably comfortable for the trip. I got warm water and a pad. I might as well be riding on North Korean lines. Maybe government should get rid of the trains if they are going to recreate the Holocaust with every trip. It is a scam right now.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 22, 2010)

A remarkably fast proof of Godwin's Law. I suppose the thread is closed now.


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## RRrich (Jun 22, 2010)

I have ridden a number of Long Distance Amtrak trains, either because I enjoy it or because it is so much better than the alternatives:flying or driving.

Most of my rides have been pleasant and left me wanting to ride again, some have been lousy. Most Amtrak equipment is old but some has been well restored. Many Amtrak employees seem to enjoy their jobs and try to make you enjoy your trip - then there are the others 

Riding Amtrak is a crap-shoot - and it sounds like Jack B threw boxcars!


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

Ispolkom said:


> A remarkably fast proof of Godwin's Law. I suppose the thread is closed now.


LOL! You know how hard is it for your sleeper customers to be able to get a cold diet coke at anytime? I would have been willing to pay for it. How hard is it get sheets thick enough not to be able to make out the prison black and white strips on your pillow? I could go on and on. The whole experience was really bad. I will not do it again unless big changes are made.


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## Ispolkom (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > A remarkably fast proof of Godwin's Law. I suppose the thread is closed now.
> ...


You're the one who compared not getting a cold diet Coke to the Holocaust. You lose.

PLONK!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

I work for a living, that's all you need to know.

You paid for twenty some hours of service... Divide your ticket by the number of people then by the number of hours. I'll use a recent trip I took on the LSL from BOS to CLE.

Two people divided by 460' 230 per person, we spent about fifteen hours on the train.. That means we each paid $15.34 per hour per person... And that was an expensive trip, had my miter not been along I would have done coach.

When you actually run the numbers, you aren't paying all that much for your service.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I work for a living, that's all you need to know.
> You paid for twenty some hours of service... Divide your ticket by the number of people then by the number of hours. I'll use a recent trip I took on the LSL from BOS to CLE.
> 
> Two people divided by 460' 230 per person, we spent about fifteen hours on the train.. That means we each paid $15.34 per hour per person... And that was an expensive trip, had my miter not been along I would have done coach.
> ...


Awe! An Amtrak government employee. You guys suck!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Deleted.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Amtrak employees are not government employees, it's a common enough mistake. They are employees of the National Passanger Rail Corporation, whose sole investor is the US Congress. They are a corporation just like any other, the controlling share and thus cash cow, is the US Congress.

Amtrak is a political hot potato. That's about as far as the connection between Amtrak employees and government goes.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Revised statement, THIS is now the silliest thing I have ever seen on these boards.
> 
> 
> > Maybe government should get rid of the trains if they are going to recreate the Holocaust with every trip.


I'm done with the Amtrak nightmare. Those of you that are reading, save your money and skip this joke. When it is 12:00 at night and you are thirsty, hungry or hot and sweeting you will pledge never to do this again. Take my experience and skip the pain. If you can get your money back do so right away.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Amtrak employees are not government employees, it's a common enough mistake. They are employees of the National Passanger Rail Corporation, whose sole investor is the US Congress. They are a corporation just like any other, the controlling share and thus cash cow, is the US Congress.
> Amtrak is a political hot potato. That's about as far as the connection between Amtrak employees and government goes.


So they are owned by the Congress and not the government? LOL! Did you eat paint chips as a kid?


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## amamba (Jun 22, 2010)

come on kids, don't feed the trolls.


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## AlanB (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > I work for a living, that's all you need to know.
> ...


Not that it should matter, but he's not an Amtrak employee. There are a few on this board, but ALC isn't one.

And please watch your tone or I'm going to shut this topic down. I understand that you're upset, but insulting people isn't going to change things. Talking or writing to Amtrak might help some, but again insulting people here won't.

Thanks.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

And your knowledge of corporate accounting is wrong, just because the Congrsss has a controlling interest in a corporation doesn't mean they own it outright, much less have the ability or authority to manage it's day to day operations.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

And this topic is....closed.


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## darien-l (Jun 22, 2010)

I've seen this scenario before: someone shells out a lot of $$$ for a bedroom in the very highest bucket, and expects luxury because of the high price paid. Of course, these people often don't realize that had they booked farther in advance, or tried different dates, their fare would be dramatically lower and far more in line with their expectations.

To avoid this, Amtrak needs to be more transparent about their fare system. When you book an airline ticket, a fare class is always shown; why not do the same on Amtrak? Amtrak could even simply it by color coding, say, green for lowest bucket and red for highest bucket. Also, having a "fare calendar," like many airlines, would be helpful for people who have flexible travel plans and are looking for the best price.

Jack, my question to you is, would you be as upset if you paid, say, only a third of what you did?


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## Rail Freak (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack B,

Ya ever thought about takin a cruise?

RF


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

darien-l said:


> I've seen this scenario before: someone shells out a lot of $$$ for a bedroom in the very highest bucket, and expects luxury because of the high price paid. .
> Jack, my question to you is, would you be as upset if you paid, say, only a third of what you did?


No not at all. I mean it didn't have to be as miserable as it was. Why not have some sodas available within reason for the sleeper people? Why not have AC that actually works 24/7? I'm a country boy that grew up fishing in the Gulf of Mexico. I don't need to be waited on like a 5 star hotel. When I say pampered I mean having a decent place to sleep and choices of being hydrated. How hard would it have been to have a bucket of ice and sodas? AC that actually works? Linen that was clean and not paper thin so I don't have to sleep with thousands of people?


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

Rail Freak said:


> Jack B,Ya ever thought about takin a cruise?
> 
> RF


I've done several cruises and no I don't expect that type of service on a train. Could we not have beverages available for people paying for a sleeper 24/7? What about WiFi? If an airplane thousands of feet up can have it how hard would it be in a train? Fully functional AC? Decent bedding?


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## darien-l (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack,

Like most other people on this board, I travel extensively by Amtrak, and have had good trips, bad trips, and amazing trips. Yours, unfortunately, was clearly bad. In many cases, the sleeper car attendant makes the trip, and it sounds like yours didn't bother to do much. A good sleeper car attendant will bring you sodas and whatever else you might need, even meals delivered to your room, if you desire. Buckets of ice, juice, and coffee are normally available in the sleeping car. If they weren't on your trip, your attendant clearly dropped the ball. I personally have never had any problems with AC on my trips: it's definitely not typical. So, you definitely had a worse-than-average Amtrak trip, and the solution, as other people here suggested, is to contact Amtrak Customer Relations. You will get apologies for the issues you've encountered and a voucher for a future trip.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Ive always slept fine on Amtrak linens, in fact when I was younger I stole (I'll admit it, first time in a sleeper, years ago) I stole a blanket, and to this day it's in my bedroom. A nice quality cotton.

Cost effect analysis...

I am on an AE from NYP to WAS right now. The upgrade to first class is $102, for less than three hours of train time. Right now I am paying double, if not triple, per hour what I would on a sleeper. You know what else? I am being pampered, so yes, pampering is possible with Amtrak... You just have to PAY for it. $30 an hour per person on an Acela or $15 or even $10 per person in a sleeper.

Hows does this NOT make sense? Pay more, get more.

Edit for typos...


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

As an aside...

Since this trip is ten years old, a call to Amtrak now wouldn't do much good.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, I only see two options here, get over it & book another Amtrak Trip OR just get over it!!!

Good Night Irene!!!

RF


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## pennyk (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


I do not think you will get a coke at all on an Amtrak train - just Pepsi products. Apparently your expectations were very high and you were disappointed with a SCA who possibly did not do his or her job. Train travel is not for everyone. Most of us on this board LOVE to travel by train and 10 count sheets, thin mattresses, Pepsi only with meals, etc. do not bother us. My guess most of us would complain about how we were treated by the airlines, if we chose to fly.


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## MrEd (Jun 22, 2010)

wow, is this trip really 10 years old ?


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

darien-l said:


> Jack,
> Like most other people on this board, I travel extensively by Amtrak, and have had good trips, bad trips, and amazing trips. Yours, unfortunately, was clearly bad. In many cases, the sleeper car attendant makes the trip, and it sounds like yours didn't bother to do much. A good sleeper car attendant will bring you sodas and whatever else you might need, even meals delivered to your room, if you desire. Buckets of ice, juice, and coffee are normally available in the sleeping car. If they weren't on your trip, your attendant clearly dropped the ball. I personally have never had any problems with AC on my trips: it's definitely not typical. So, you definitely had a worse-than-average Amtrak trip, and the solution, as other people here suggested, is to contact Amtrak Customer Relations. You will get apologies for the issues you've encountered and a voucher for a future trip.


Both attendants to and from dropped the ball? Look I spent 26 hours up and down from DC. There is no reason why they can't have sodas etc... 24/7. I know the trains are old why not at least retro fit them with WiFi and dare I say a small flat TV screen in each sleeper? They do this on the airlines. Amtrak is offering a very slow service. They should at least equal airlines with comfort or at least try.


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## sunchaser (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> darien-l said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen this scenario before: someone shells out a lot of $$$ for a bedroom in the very highest bucket, and expects luxury because of the high price paid. .
> ...


Jack,

There are many here that agree with you. There is a certain expectation of quality & service for the price paid.

Again I encourage you to contact Amtrak directly at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245). I would not email them, my experience is that they have a heavy backlog for emails. Call to get better & faster results.

I am surprised that the sheets were not clean. They are supposed to change them for each customer. We too, experienced very worn, torn sheets among other issues.

The Sleeping Car Attendant should be able to provide a bucket of ice, but sodas are not provided for free anymore.

On each train ride we have had, there was ice, juice, & coffee available, free, throughout the journey. Four of our train rides were around 18 hours each. Most trains have 'refresh stops' where they pick up ice & things. On the Coast Starlight, in addition, fresh fruit was available & we were offered champagne splits. Our last ride, on the California Zephyr, the Sleeping Car Attendant was checking on us about every hour or so & insisted that we call him for juice & coffee or anything else.

The only issue on that round trip train ride was that the roomette was very cold eastbound. I realized later that the bedding was blocking the air flow.

I am neither a 'fanboy' or an employee. I'm a woman who started riding trains last summer with my hubby because it is less stress for him....but I do like riding the trains. As someone who at one point was going to make flying into a career, I can say I enjoy the train so much more than flying, & prefer it unless it's a time issue.

We watch a fair amount of TV. Before we went on our first trip, we bought an external DVD player for our Netbook. We never used it on the trip. Why? We were looking out the window, enjoying the scenery & talking to each other, taking video & pictures. We brought our own WiFi, & used it a little, but not much as we do at home.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Pay more, get more.

Want flat screen TVs? Prepare to pay out the butt for it, all those sets are going to be damaged by other pax, passing the cost onto you... WiFi is already on the NEC with nationwide rollout scheduled in the fall. Good luck though, 400. People crossing the middle of nowhere in and out of cell towers... It's easier to get a connection at 40,000 feet than it is in the middle of New Mexico.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

pennyk said:


> I do not think you will get a coke at all on an Amtrak train - just Pepsi products. Apparently your expectations were very high and you were disappointed with a SCA who possibly did not do his or her job. Train travel is not for everyone. Most of us on this board LOVE to travel by train and 10 count sheets, thin mattresses, Pepsi only with meals, etc. do not bother us. My guess most of us would complain about how we were treated by the airlines, if we chose to fly.


You are right Diet Pepsi only which isn't much of a big deal. Why travel by train only? I know some people simply love trains. Is that it?


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## Ozark Southern (Jun 22, 2010)

MrEd said:


> wow, is this trip really 10 years old ?


No. The OP said that his Amtrak trip 10 years ago was very good, but the one he just finished taking was the equivalent of murdering millions of people. Many of us believe that's perhaps a slight overstatement, but nevertheless he seems to have had atypically poor service.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Pay more, get more.
> Want flat screen TVs? Prepare to pay out the butt for it, all those sets are going to be damaged by other pax, passing the cost onto you... WiFi is already on the NEC with nationwide rollout scheduled in the fall. Good luck though, 400. People crossing the middle of nowhere in and out of cell towers... It's easier to get a connection at 40,000 feet than it is in the middle of New Mexico.


I'm willing to pay more hence the sleeper. As far as someone damaging a TV isn't that vandalism and worth prosecuting? So you are saying planes get Wifi and trains can't? Planes have TV trains not? Why? Not being a smarta$$ I would really like to know why. I used my cell phone in spots throughout my trip. A train could have Sat internet service. Freaking boats all over the world use it.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

'freaking boats' don't have 400 plus people on board, all with iPhones, iPods, ipads, laptops ect trying to get some bandwidth.

Furthermore planes can get a signal because they are ABOVE the ground. Getting a signal ON the ground can sometimes be hard.

As for damaging of TVs, it isn't always black and white, especially when multiple people use the same car. I once accidentally damaged a Tpflat screen I bought from Best Buy while installing it, I took it back and got a new TV. Was it wrong, probably, but did Best Buy give me a new TV? Yes. They can't prove anything.

"Hey we event over that diamond and I fell into it, sorry..."


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## darien-l (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Both attendants to and from dropped the ball? Look I spent 26 hours up and down from DC.


Sure sounds like it. In my experience, about 25% of attendants are amazing, 50% are "just doing their jobs", and 25% are just never seen or heard from. It's also somewhat route-specific: I've had great experiences on the Sunset Limited and Coast Starlight, some mixed ones on the California Zephyr, and a pretty bad one on Lakeshore Limited.



> There is no reason why they can't have sodas etc... 24/7.


 They normally do have coffee, water, juices, and ice available 24/7, and tea and soda on request.



> I know the trains are old why not at least retro fit them with WiFi and dare I say a small flat TV screen in each sleeper?


The cars that you were in weren't that old -- they were constructed 1987-1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewliner). They did initially have a small TV screen in each sleeper, but that came to an end because of budget cuts. Trains are being refit with WiFi right now: Acelas already have WiFi, and plans for other trains are in the works.


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## AlanB (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Pay more, get more.
> ...


The sleepers that you were in did at one time have small TV screens that showed first run movies, cartoons, and comedy shows. You couldn't select what you wanted to watch, it was all mixed in on one tape that just looped continuously, so you only had to wait a few hours to see the same thing again. The screens were removed in part because they were expensive to keep them working and they did get damaged both from abuse by pax and just the general knocking that occurs on the trains. Some were even damaged by falling luggage. The other side of the coin was that when in the yards, it seemed as though there were a few employees that would steal the tapes.

So unfortunately the decision was made to remove the screens and associated equipment.

As for a SAT dish, the first time the train runs through a tunnel, the dish would be gone. So a SAT dish isn't a viable answer to the Wi-Fi issue unfortunately.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> 'freaking boats' don't have 400 plus people on board, all with iPhones, iPods, ipads, laptops ect trying to get some bandwidth.
> Furthermore planes can get a signal because they are ABOVE the ground. Getting a signal ON the ground can sometimes be hard.
> 
> As for damaging of TVs, it isn't always black and white, especially when multiple people use the same car. I once accidentally damaged a Tpflat screen I bought from Best Buy while installing it, I took it back and got a new TV. Was it wrong, probably, but did Best Buy give me a new TV? Yes. They can't prove anything.
> ...


Yea airlines don't have to worry about damage to a TV. There is no excuse for some sort of TV. At least have great Wifi and let the people bring there own devices. I had pretty good reception with my iphone throuhout the trip. If I was manager of this train with not many limits on money. I would first have a good internet WiFi service, second a car only for sleepers with plenty of descent snack food. Dudes the trains could rival the air but it will not as long as things remain.


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## AlanB (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Look I spent 26 hours up and down from DC. There is no reason why they can't have sodas etc... 24/7. I know the trains are old why not at least retro fit them with WiFi and dare I say a small flat TV screen in each sleeper? They do this on the airlines. Amtrak is offering a very slow service. They should at least equal airlines with comfort or at least try.


At one time Amtrak did provide free soda in the sleeping cars. That practice stopped about 4 or 5 years ago in part due to budget cuts at that time forced upon Amtrak by Congress. The secondary reason for their loss was hoarding of the soda by a few. And that few included both passengers and crew.

Yes, there were a few crew members who would not put out their entire stock of soda and instead take it home for their own use or to sell. And there were also passengers who would grab 4 or 5 sodas every time they passed by the beverage station and go home with 10, 15, 20 or more cans of soda.

So again, when ordered by Congress to cut food service losses, free sodas in the sleepers were an easy and to some extent a logical place to start.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

The Coast Starlight has many of the things you want, they kind of function as a test ship due to good management.

Problem is they BARELY make do with what they have, and still take a loss on their trains. Read the boards friend, the topics you bring up are nothing new... If you want all this stuff, you either have to pay twice the price for your service, or tell your congressman to give a blank check to Amtrak.

Incidentally Rep. John Campbell of California is sitting right behind me, shall I pass along a word for you?


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## darien-l (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Why travel by train only? I know some people simply love trains. Is that it?


I don't travel only by train, just whenever possible. I find it both relaxing and productive: I usually bring my laptop along and get a lot of work done, or just enjoy the scenery, read, watch movies, meet people, etc. With all of Amtrak's flaws, I still think it's the most civilized way to travel. But don't get me wrong: I'm totally with you that there's plenty of room for improvement. I know firsthand how frustrating a bad Amtrak experience can be. Here are two examples:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?showtopic=23222

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?showtopic=31090

Still, my good experiences have outnumbered bad ones by a significant margin. Overall, I enjoy Amtrak a lot more than the airlines.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > Look I spent 26 hours up and down from DC. There is no reason why they can't have sodas etc... 24/7. I know the trains are old why not at least retro fit them with WiFi and dare I say a small flat TV screen in each sleeper? They do this on the airlines. Amtrak is offering a very slow service. They should at least equal airlines with comfort or at least try.
> ...


On the way up our attendent did give us sodas 24/7. I understand some would abusive with it. Is that my problem? Screw it!


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## AlanB (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> If I was manager of this train with not many limits on money.


And right there is the primary issue with much of what you're upset about; lack of money. While funding from Congress has been up in recent years, not too long ago it wasn't. And Amtrak was forced to borrow money both to simply keep going and to obtain new equipment.

Right now IIRC, nearly half the annual appropriation from Congress to Amtrak goes directly into payments on those loans. That doesn't leave a whole lot left for operations and improving things unfortunately.

That said, it doesn't excuse attendants whom you can't find and don't at least put out the juice and coffee that they are provided with for your comfort.

The attendant should greet you upon boarding, direct you to your room, provide assistance with your luggage if you request it.

They should provide meal service in your room if requested.

The should put down your beds in the evening and back up in the morning.

They should clean the shower (and where applicable with shared bathrooms) try to clean them at least a few times each day. They cannot clean after each use however.

They are responsible for your safety.

They are responsible to ensure that you get off at your destination, and of course for opening and closing the doors at each and every stop.

And they should generally be available to answer questions you might have.

Just to name a few things.

But please also keep in mind that except for 4 hours per night, they are supposed to be on duty for the rest of the day. Twenty hours is a very long day of work. Granted they do get some time for meals too, but still they are on the go for 20 hours.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Is it your fault? No. Is it your problem? Yes, in fact it is... If it increases the operating costs, it increases ticket prices for all of us. The silly actions of the few can have reprocussions on the whole, its like shoplifting.


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## darien-l (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> On the way up our attendent did give us sodas 24/7. I understand some would abusive with it. Is that my problem? Screw it!


Interesting... sodas are not normally available for free to sleeper passengers, but some attendants will buy them on request, sometimes with their own money, hoping to recoup the losses by a big tip. You did tip this guy, right?


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## AlanB (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > At one time Amtrak did provide free soda in the sleeping cars. That practice stopped about 4 or 5 years ago in part due to budget cuts at that time forced upon Amtrak by Congress. The secondary reason for their loss was hoarding of the soda by a few. And that few included both passengers and crew.
> ...


Unfortunately, yes, it has become your problem because other people abused the system. That's the way of the world. We all suffer the indignity of the TSA today every time we fly. Why? Because some people abused the old system and killed thousands of people. Some one put explosives in their shoes, so now we have to remove ours. People went nuts with the unlimited data service of the I-Phone, so now AT&T no longer offers that plan to new and renewing customers.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

darien-l said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > On the way up our attendent did give us sodas 24/7. I understand some would abusive with it. Is that my problem? Screw it!
> ...


This was a decade ago when they DID have free sodas in the sleepers, I mentioned it before. Everything about this to be them with a grain of salt because of the age factor. Things have changed in ten years, maybe not a lot, but a lot of the little things...


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## MJL (Jun 22, 2010)

So this whole rant is about free sodas? :lol:


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Dudes the trains could rival the air but it will not as long as things remain.


How exactly are trains going to rival airlines with little or no government involvement? What system are you envisioning when you make these sorts of comments?



Jack Boudreaux said:


> If I was manager of this train with not many limits on money.


You've already ruled out government involvement because that always fails, so who else is going to pay so much that money becomes a non-issue?


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## AAARGH! (Jun 22, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> darien-l said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


ALC, this trip was NOT 10 years ago. It was recent. He mentioned he had a good trip 10 years ago, but then describes this bad recent one.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2010)

Thank you, I stand corrected.


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## tp49 (Jun 22, 2010)

guest said:


> The apologists for Amtrak.


The proper term is "Amapologist."


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2010)

tp49 said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > The apologists for Amtrak.
> ...


Wouldn't that be "amtrapologist"?


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2010)

As a fairly frequent rider of long distance services, it appears to me that the OP is looking at his experience 10 years ago through rose-colored glasses. Either that or he took a luxury rail tour of some sort, and not regular Amtrak service. These comments apply to Superliner/Viewliner era Amtrak.

The beds have not changed. The lower always used a pad with bedding laid over the seat cushions of the flattened seats. The uppers have always been a little thin in terms of cushioning.

The sheets and pillow cases have not changed. They are pretty much what they've always been with Amtrak. At bit above Motel 6 scratchy, but not fine bed linen by any stretch of the imagination.

The drinks have never been cold, even when the still had complimentary soda. There is usually ice available for them, but the drinks themselves are not cold or iced.

Juice is only required to be available in the morning, it is a "wake-up" perk. Same then as now. Some attendents leave the juice boxes out later, some don't. Always been that way. It never was cold, either, and if you wanted it cold, you put in ice. BTW-Does anyone else but me think the off-brand juice that Amtrak uses always tastes a bit weird?

The one thing identified that actually did change was that there is no longer complimentary soda. Otherwise, the things the OP was generally complaining about were the same 10 years ago. I know, I was there, and I rode a lot then, too.

I don't like some of these things either, and I am not "apologizing". I am just pointing out these things really have NOT changed, and the OP either has much rosier memories of the prior trip than actually happened, or he is somehow confusing his earlier trip with a ride on the Santa Fe Super Chief (which did not have complimentary cold sodas, either, but did have better beds and bedding).


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## Donctor (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> You are the ignorant one. When you pay out your nose for a room on a train you should be reasonably comfortable for the trip. I got warm water and a pad. I might as well be riding on North Korean lines. Maybe government should get rid of the trains if they are going to recreate the Holocaust with every trip. It is a scam right now.


You may be angry, but the Holocaust reference was unnecessary.

Not called for.


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## pennyk (Jun 22, 2010)

I remember about 10+ years ago on the Silver Meteor, the SCA provided the sleeping car passengers with chocolate chip cookies and free sodas. On my next trip after that, I was disappointed not to have the warm cookies, but I was told the cut back was due to budget cuts.

Unless Amtrak receives the kind of subsidies that airlines and highways get, there will not be luxury service (unless you get a private car and spend a boatload of money). As it stands now, Amtrak is losing money. I would much rather have Amtrak, as is, than have to pay quadruple what I am paying now for more amenities.

Our government cannot afford what it is paying now and there is a movement in this country to reduce taxes. I cannot imagine any "tea party" candidate being in favor of pumping more money into Amtrak. (I personally do not think taxes are too high and I would much rather see our government spend more money on Amtrak than on war).


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 22, 2010)

zephyr17 said:


> I don't like some of these things either, and I am not "apologizing". I am just pointing out these things really have NOT changed, and the OP either has much rosier memories of the prior trip than actually happened, or he is somehow confusing his earlier trip with a ride on the Santa Fe Super Chief.


Thanks for that post, very well said. If anything Amtrak has actually _improved_ over the last decade with far better on-time performance these days. I recently asked my mom what it was like when I rode as a young boy in the late 1970' or early 1980's and she said Amtrak was almost always a few hours late back then as well. In my memory we were just early to the station so I could watch the trains, but nope, it was Amtrak's busted schedules that allowed for so much station gawking. Oh well.



pennyk said:


> I would much rather have Amtrak, as is, than have to pay quadruple what I am paying now for more amenities. Our government cannot afford what it is paying now and there is a movement in this country to reduce taxes. I cannot imagine any "tea party" candidate being in favor of pumping more money into Amtrak. (I personally do not think taxes are too high and I would much rather see our government spend more money on Amtrak than on war).


Agreed on all levels. The OP kicks the hypocrisy into high gear by expecting heavily reduced government involvement while amenities somehow _increase_. If he can refer to some functioning example of this privately-funded super train he seems to be expecting then maybe I'll take him seriously, but I doubt there's anything behind his comments besides ever more trash talk.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 22, 2010)

daxomni said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like some of these things either, and I am not "apologizing". I am just pointing out these things really have NOT changed, and the OP either has much rosier memories of the prior trip than actually happened, or he is somehow confusing his earlier trip with a ride on the Santa Fe Super Chief.
> ...


In the end it was a nightmare service. I will not be using Amtrak again. I find it funny how many of you come to the governments rescue. Enjoy all the crappy service you can. I'm done.


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## Trainmans daughter (Jun 22, 2010)

Bye-bye Jack.


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## Donctor (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > zephyr17 said:
> ...


You've already said you won't travel Amtrak again.

Have you called them to see what they can (or are willing) to do?


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## Rail Freak (Jun 22, 2010)

pennyk said:


> I would much rather see our government spend more money on Amtrak than on war).


I applaud that, thank you!!!

RF


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> In the end it was a nightmare service. I will not be using Amtrak again. I find it funny how many of you come to the governments rescue. Enjoy all the crappy service you can. I'm done.


I didn't apologize for Amtrak's shortcomings. All I pointed out was that Amtrak was much the same 10 years ago as it is now, particularly on your specific criticisms. Amtrak was never all that great, and isn't any worse now than it was then. Better in some ways, on time performance has overall improved, but onboard service levels are much the same, and still hit-or-miss, and the bedding is identical.

Just what DID you ride 10 years ago? Or what were you smoking 10 years ago that made it seem so much better? Or does a 6 oz bottle of free Pepsi really mean that much to you?


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## coachseats (Jun 22, 2010)

Just as a counterpoint in case someone new to train travel who might be reading this and thinking this is the way the service always is: Last week we travelled on the Crescent WAS-ATL and back as part of a larger trip. On this particular train we had some of the most freindly and helpful sleeping car attendants I have ever had on Amtrak. One was still training, but already knew her job like a pro. She really took the time to make us feel welcome and was so nice to our daughter. Room was clean, everything worked fine, help with luggage on both ends of the trip. Dinner and breakfast were brought to our room right when requested (for which I tipped extra). I am not discounting the OP's story but certainly on our total trip which included six trains with sleepers, we were very happy with the service provided. I always make a point to be genuinely friendly to any crew members I encounter and 99% of the time the return on that investment comes in the form of great service.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> In the end it was a nightmare service. I will not be using Amtrak again. I find it funny how many of you come to the governments rescue. Enjoy all the crappy service you can. I'm done.


Hey man sorry Amtrak isn't your thing enjoy your flight. Amtrak doesn't make anyway so losing one passenger won't do anything for them.


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## Ryan (Jun 22, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> In the end it was a nightmare service. I will not be using Amtrak again. I find it funny how many of you come to the governments rescue. Enjoy all the crappy service you can. I'm done.


Awesome, more seats from us and less threads from you. We all win!


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## JayPea (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm heading to Seattle from Spokane tomorrow morning around 3AM or so (depending on how much time the EB makes up; right now it's an hour and 10 minutes behind) and I still look forward to all that so-called crappy service!!!! Who wants to fly to Seattle from Spokane when I can take the train??? I'd rather, among other things, ride through the Cascade Tunnel rather than fly over it at 15,000 feet!


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## Cristobal (Jun 22, 2010)

I have a very recent Amtrak experience to share as well.

But, sadly, the only 'bad' thing that happened in 2 days on the CS was that we were politely asked by the LSA to vacate our dinner table at 7:10 (6:00 rez) to clear a table for the people with 7:15 reservations.

That *******!!! I'm never riding Amtrak again! 

Oh yeah...

The New York strip from that dinner was *perfect* and my dinner company was very pleasant and enlightening.

But my Cabernet was served *warm* (room temp) dammit! 

Oh wait... 

I hope to put together a trip report soon but it won't be found in this thread.


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## just answer one question (Jun 22, 2010)

Cristobal said:


> I have a very recent Amtrak experience to share as well.
> But, sadly, the only 'bad' thing that happened in 2 days on the CS was that we were politely asked by the LSA to vacate our dinner table at 7:10 (6:00 rez) to clear a table for the people with 7:15 reservations.
> 
> That *******!!! I'm never riding Amtrak again!
> ...


For all of you who enthuse about Amtrak:

Why cannot the service be consistent? Even the Amtrakafoamers concede that service is a crapshoot.

Do you know of any airline or other service that is so maddeningly inconsistent?

Is Amtrak management afraid of enforcing basic service courtesies? Does anyone ever check on the service? Wouldn't you think that the raft of complaints (resulting in vouchers) by the people on this board alone might clue SOMEONE in Amtrak management that there is a problem here?

Again, year after year, the one consistency with Amtrak is its inconsistency.

What a way to run a railroad!!!


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## rrdude (Jun 22, 2010)

Amtking said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > You are the ignorant one. When you pay out your nose for a room on a train you should be reasonably comfortable for the trip. I got warm water and a pad. I might as well be riding on North Korean lines. Maybe government should get rid of the trains if they are going to recreate the Holocaust with every trip. It is a scam right now.
> ...


I disagree on the need to apologize, he's simply emphasizing his opinion, you may not like it, but it's no slur on anyone, except maybe Amtrak and the ****s themselves. And please don't say that it "trivializes" the actual event, because it doesn't...........

Oh Jesus, I can't even type the word N..A...Z.....I......S


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## Donctor (Jun 23, 2010)

rrdude said:


> I disagree on the need to apologize, he's simply emphasizing his opinion, you may not like it, but it's no slur on anyone, except maybe Amtrak and the ****s themselves. And please don't say that it "trivializes" the actual event, because it doesn't...........
> Oh Jesus, I can't even type the word N..A...Z.....I......S


Okay. I just spilled water on my shorts. It's just like genocide.


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## Donctor (Jun 23, 2010)

just answer one question said:


> For all of you who enthuse about Amtrak:
> Why cannot the service be consistent? Even the Amtrakafoamers concede that service is a crapshoot.
> 
> Do you know of any airline or other service that is so maddeningly inconsistent?


Yes. United.


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## darien-l (Jun 23, 2010)

just answer one question said:


> For all of you who enthuse about Amtrak:
> Why cannot the service be consistent? Even the Amtrakafoamers concede that service is a crapshoot.
> 
> Do you know of any airline or other service that is so maddeningly inconsistent?
> ...


There are people on this board far more knowledgeable than myself about this topic, but I will attempt to summarize. Since its inception in 1971, Amtrak has been a political hot potato. There are some in the federal government who feel that it should invest in passenger rail, just as it does in highways, and others who feel that passenger rail should not receive any federal subsidies. For example, the Amtrak budget has been zeroed out by the Bush administration on at least two occasions (later reversed by Congress).

A result of this political tug-of-war is that Amtrak has been on starvation diet pretty much since its inception. It received only enough for it to survive, and little else. It was also operating under the constant threat of its funding being pulled, which made it difficult to plan for the long term. The result is old rolling stock, bare bones ameneties, deferred maintenance, and (sometimes) surly employees, who have had to deal for years with failing equipment, excessive delays, and complaining passengers. Amtrak management has always been very aware of these problems, but there simply wasn't enough money available to fix them.

There is some hope, however. The current administration recognizes that passenger rail is an important form of transportation, and invested substantial amounts of money into it (8-12 billion so far, IIRC). It is still far short from what countries like France, Germany, Japan, and China invest in their passenger rail systems, but it's a start. Amtrak finally got funding to acquire new rolling stock, refurbish old train cars, perform much needed infrastructure maintenance, and install niceties like Wi-Fi. Based on the trip reports on this board, the results are starting to show, and passenger rail travel is definitely on the upswing in terms of both ridership and quality of the experience.

However, Amtrak is improving service one train at a time, so some trains are much better than others, even though the price is about the same. (I remember seeing a schedule for train improvement projects for the next few years, can anyone post that?) That's one major reason for the inconsistency. The other is that there are some burned out, unmotivated employees, but it's hard to get rid of them because they are union workers, and it takes a lot of documentation and effort to get them fired. But again, based on trip reports, it appears that recent hires almost always provide excellent service, and are slowly replacing the "old guard."


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## alanh (Jun 23, 2010)

Amtking said:


> just answer one question said:
> 
> 
> > For all of you who enthuse about Amtrak:
> ...


I was going to say "all of them". Just go over to Flyertalk.com and read some of the forums.
And go ahead and keep saying that poor service on a train is exactly the same as the deliberate, systematic murder of millions of people. I like what Jon Stewart (The Daily Show) had to say:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-june...itler-reference



> Adolph Hitler -- one of the worst mass murderers in all of history -- has now become the go-to metaphor in comparison for anyone you have a minor disagreement with....
> 
> You know who was Hitler? HITLER!


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## Donctor (Jun 23, 2010)

alanh said:


> Amtking said:
> 
> 
> > just answer one question said:
> ...


I was thinking the same thing, but I wasn't sure if anyone here would know of Jon Stewart.


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## just answer one question (Jun 23, 2010)

darien-l said:


> just answer one question said:
> 
> 
> > For all of you who enthuse about Amtrak:
> ...


Thanks for the detailed explanation and the lack of vituperation!

The one thing I still have a hard time understanding is the incredibly wide range of employee competence and service attitudes.

A friendly employee goes a long way toward mitigating an individual's ire about balky air conditioning or so-so food.

Yes, many airlines have problems with on-time service, on-board amenities and the like, but I doubt that any of them can hold a candle to the moodiness of Amtrak employees. (TSA workers are not airline employees but government workers, akin to Amtrak employees.) I have ridden many short-range Amtrak trains where the conductors sit at the end of the car after collecting tickets and *****, *****, ***** about Amtrak, A-to-Z. I've been on several long-distance trains as well where, while sitting in the diner at the tail end of a meal service, the servers sit down at an empty table and start to complain about everything A-to-Z.

The simple act of complaining about your employer without caring whether the passenger hears you says volumes about the Amtrak employee. And what it says it not positive.

See if you find that happening on Southwest, United, American or any airline!


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## Donctor (Jun 23, 2010)

darien-l said:


> However, Amtrak is improving service one train at a time, so some trains are much better than others, even though the price is about the same. (I remember seeing a schedule for train improvement projects for the next few years, can anyone post that?) That's one major reason for the inconsistency. The other is that there are some burned out, unmotivated employees, but it's hard to get rid of them because they are union workers, and it takes a lot of documentation and effort to get them fired. But again, based on trip reports, it appears that recent hires almost always provide excellent service, and are slowly replacing the "old guard."


According to the Five Year Plan, the breakdown is/was as follows:

FY08 — Coast Starlight, Northeast Regional, Hiawathas, San Joaquins, City of New Orleans, Auto Train

FY09 — Empire Builder, Empire Service & Adirondack, Lincoln Service, Lake Shore Limited, Sunset Limited, Crescent

FY10 — Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle, Cardinal, California Zephyr, Capitol Limited

Not sure whether the contents of this document reflect what actually happened/is happening. The CONO's Performance Improvement Study probably resulted in the train being assigned a sleeper _every time it runs_.


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## darien-l (Jun 23, 2010)

just answer one question said:


> I have ridden many short-range Amtrak trains where the conductors sit at the end of the car after collecting tickets and *****, *****, ***** about Amtrak, A-to-Z. I've been on several long-distance trains as well where, while sitting in the diner at the tail end of a meal service, the servers sit down at an empty table and start to complain about everything A-to-Z.


Yes, I've encountered that as well. In fact, I've been on the receiving end of this kind of attitude: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?showtopic=23222 I don't think it's excusable, but it is explainable: as I said before, spending years dealing with failing equipment, like backed up toilets and broken AC, excessive delays (on the order of 12 hours at times), complaining passengers, and lack of job security (it was never certain whether Congress would renew Amtrak subsidies for another year) might make some people into surly a-holes.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 23, 2010)

I have not found Amtrak to be a crapshoot. Not for me, anyway. I'm a polite and reasonable passenger who never demands anything of anyone. I ask for things from the SCA when I can't get them easily for myself. I expect edible food in the diner, and get it. I expect the amenities Amtrak advertises and nothing more.

I further expect the employees to be humans. Humans that like you give you good service and are generally nice to you. When you sit there grumpily asking for things you feel entitled to, you will get bad service. And good lord, why not? If I was attending you, I wouldn't make an effort to serve you. Why would I want to be constantly burdened with the weight of your unreasonable disapproval?

If I am going between New York and Chicago with my girlfriend, that means we pay $188 for a sleeper. We eat $60 worth of food in the diner, $30 for breakfast. That means we are getting a $98 room on a train. So I don't get any of the amenities that come with an expensive hotel room. And why should I?

If you're looking for service on the Twentieth Century Limited, go buy a Delorean from Dr. Emmet Brown. That ship sailed years ago. You are looking for something from a bygone age that will never be coming back. This is the age where American's shop at wal-mart. Have a cornoary about it and shut up or get over it.

You will get no better anywhere else.


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## darien-l (Jun 23, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I have not found Amtrak to be a crapshoot. Not for me, anyway. I'm a polite and reasonable passenger who never demands anything of anyone. I ask for things from the SCA when I can't get them easily for myself. I expect edible food in the diner, and get it. I expect the amenities Amtrak advertises and nothing more.


Have you ever had an SCA who was nowhere to be found when it was time to turn-down or make up you bed? Or one that didn't deliver a newspaper in the morning, or made sure coffee was available? These are all advertised Amtrak ameneties, even for a roomette: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...d=1241210576173

Myself, I've had SCAs who have gone above and beyond the call of duty by providing things like sodas (probably purchased on their own dime) and tea, delivering meals from the dining car, and replenishing water bottles in the room several times a day, and others who were nowhere to be found and never performed their "advertised duties" like making up beds.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 23, 2010)

Okay for like the third time..

Amtrak employees are NOT employees of the federal government! It's not that hard... Their paychecks come from Amtrak, not the US Dept of Transportation.

If you want Egyptian cotton than save your money, fly to wherever you are going, and stay at the Four Seasons.


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## Heading North (Jun 23, 2010)

just answer one question said:


> The simple act of complaining about your employer without caring whether the passenger hears you says volumes about the Amtrak employee. And what it says it not positive.See if you find that happening on Southwest, United, American or any airline!


I've heard it, by flight crew on a trans-Atlantic flight. And among airline check-in staff and gate attendants, etc. Although the most amusing for me, ever, was the check-in staff at a fairly large airport who conceded that "we all know the staff at [even larger hub airport] are incompetent."

If I hear it more often on Amtrak (and I definitely do!), it's probably because I'm hanging out in the cafe or diner too long.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 23, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Okay for like the third time..
> Amtrak employees are NOT employees of the federal government! It's not that hard... Their paychecks come from Amtrak, not the US Dept of Transportation.
> 
> If you want Egyptian cotton than save your money, fly to wherever you are going, and stay at the Four Seasons.


Wow! You must work for Amtrak. This is the Amtrak attitude.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 23, 2010)

Oh for crying outnnloud....


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## PRR 60 (Jun 23, 2010)

This has to be the most entertaining thread around here in a long time!

My two cents: Amtrak can and does deliver some pretty nice travel experiences with great on board service. I’ve been there. But they also sometimes deliver service that is just, plain awful, with the worst being when service employees treat paying customers like they are prisoners at Leavenworth. I’ve been there for that also – first hand. I travel a reasonable amount, and from my experience, no transportation provider has such a wide range of service delivery quality than Amtrak, and yes that includes United. I get consistently good service on Southwest, good to indifferent service on the legacy carriers (US, UA primarily), but only Amtrak occasionally serves up truly horrid personal service. This has been an issue from Day One, and even pre-dates Amtrak into the dark days of the Penn Central and the PRR. Too many passenger rail supporters, including groups like NARP, close their eyes to this problem or just assume it is unfixable. That is really a disservice to the goal of improving passenger rail service.

As for amenities for sleeper passengers, this is an area that could be improved at very little cost. Those of us who travel on Amtrak know what to expect in sleeper and measure performance accordingly. But picture someone who regularly travels by air. They book Amtrak’s top long-haul class and then have to pay for wine at dinner and non-meal soft drinks and snacks? Even domestic coach passengers get free soft drinks. Compared to air, the offerings in sleeper service are pretty thin (including the sheets). Those people come away from an Amtrak long distance trip in sleeper feeling cheated.

Why not provide each sleeper passenger with coupons for drinks and snacks in the lounge? That would solve any theft issue. How about including wine at dinner in the “free meal” (as is done on the Auto Train). And yes, let’s head over to Bed, Bath and Beyond and get some decent bedding. That stuff used now is, well, not so good. Two Amtrak pillows barely equal one real pillow.

None of this would cost a fortune, and could easily be covered by a modest increase in the room charge (say $20) that most of us would not even notice. The end product would seem more like what someone paying for the best service would expect.


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## caravanman (Jun 23, 2010)

I am a genuine fan of rail travel, and of Amtrak, but it is true that many Amtrak employees are less than impresssive, standards of service are quite low, and passengers expectations are often not met, when they could be..

I am not sure what the answer is.. after tens of thousands of Amtrak miles, I feel that there are, on balance, fewer good employees than poor or incompetent employees,. when it comes to train and station staff, anyway.

The issue of beds, sheets, and equipment is a different one, but with prices rising, Amtrak should provide an improved level of comfort. Why do trains leave without enough pillows, why do they run out of food, toilet paper, why is the A/C so cold in one coach, hardly on in the next?

I don't expect much improvement without more investment and training, I will still take Amtrak trains, and take them as I find them.. but I do feel that the comments and concerns of passengers, about their own experiences and percieved lack of quality service need to be given proper consideration, both by Amtrak, and by Amtrak Unlimited users.

Amazing how many people have responded and read this topic!

Ed


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## MrFSS (Jun 23, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> This has to be the most entertaining thread around here in a long time!
> My two cents: Amtrak can and does deliver some pretty nice travel experiences with great on board service. I've been there. But they also sometimes deliver service that is just, plain awful, with the worst being when service employees treat paying customers like they are prisoners at Leavenworth. I've been there for that also – first hand. I travel a reasonable amount, and from my experience, no transportation provider has such a wide range of service delivery quality than Amtrak, and yes that includes United. I get consistently good service on Southwest, good to indifferent service on the legacy carriers (US, UA primarily), but only Amtrak occasionally serves up truly horrid personal service. This has been an issue from Day One, and even pre-dates Amtrak into the dark days of the Penn Central and the PRR. Too many passenger rail supporters, including groups like NARP, close their eyes to this problem or just assume it is unfixable. That is really a disservice to the goal of improving passenger rail service.
> 
> As for amenities for sleeper passengers, this is an area that could be improved at very little cost. Those of us who travel on Amtrak know what to expect in sleeper and measure performance accordingly. But picture someone who regularly travels by air. They book Amtrak's top long-haul class and then have to pay for wine at dinner and non-meal soft drinks and snacks? Even domestic coach passengers get free soft drinks. Compared to air, the offerings in sleeper service are pretty thin (including the sheets). Those people come away from an Amtrak long distance trip in sleeper feeling cheated.
> ...


Great ideas and you have it nailed as what the situation is and how it could be fixed.

One other thing I would add - they need to bring back some sort of on-board manager that would be in charge of sleeper, coach, and dining car staff.

I just was on #8 from PDX to CHI and the Seattle Operations manager was on board. I was able to meet and talk with that person. That meeting didn't happen until about half way through the trip. But, once I learned a person in that position was on board it was easy to see why the crew in the sleepers and dining car were working as hard as they could, were courteous, caring and efficient. Perhaps it was because the "boss" was on board with them. And, that boss was stopping and talking with passengers, wandering back and forth in the cars and constantly checking on how everything was going.

It seems the reason there is sometimes poor service is because no one is checking up on these employees first hand. Maybe we need secret riders, too, who the crew doesn't know are checking up on them.

But, of course, with tenure and the union, there may not be much the company can do about the poor service employees that never get the job done.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 23, 2010)

caravanman said:


> I am a genuine fan of rail travel, and of Amtrak, but it is true that many Amtrak employees are less than impresssive, standards of service are quite low, and passengers expectations are often not met, when they could be..I am not sure what the answer is.. after tens of thousands of Amtrak miles, I feel that there are, on balance, fewer good employees than poor or incompetent employees,. when it comes to train and station staff, anyway.
> 
> The issue of beds, sheets, and equipment is a different one, but with prices rising, Amtrak should provide an improved level of comfort. Why do trains leave without enough pillows, why do they run out of food, toilet paper, why is the A/C so cold in one coach, hardly on in the next?
> 
> ...


They could do a few things right now that wouldn't cost much money. My room was rather dirty. There still was some remains of the last occupant in the toilet. It was obvious that they don't do a a good job cleaning. Heck the attendant was running us out of our rooms so he could make the beds when we arrived. I bet that was as far as the cleaning went. Have drinks available for passengers in sleepers 24/7. I will get the drinks myself and how hard is it to have a couple of bags of ice on board? I used a bad choice of words when I said pampered. I don't expect to be pampered I do expect a clean room and being able to get a cool drink when I want one. I do expect to be reasonably comfortable.


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## MJL (Jun 23, 2010)

just answer one question said:


> Cristobal said:
> 
> 
> > I have a very recent Amtrak experience to share as well.
> ...


What's the opposite of schadenfreude? When someone else's delight maddens you? :lol:


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 23, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > This has to be the most entertaining thread around here in a long time!
> ...


We had a good attendant on the way up. He really tried his best so I tipped him $20 bucks. You know if you try to make people feel comfortable most people will tip you. I think people still like money. Some of these Amtrak people are just plain lazy and rude.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 23, 2010)

Lots of good posts here, especially notable are Mr. FSS and penny k, pretty much explains the situation! 

As for me, I'd rather be on a train going anywhere,anytime and I'm no Amtrak employee or apologist but am a retired government employee! While maybe not the most traveled person on this forum, I am amongst them, and Ill be the first to say EVERYTHING can be made better with more funding,more training, more supervision IF the customers are willing to pay for it! (AKA taxes, there is no free lunch!) In closing, since tastes vary, which is better: an 18 hour over the pond flight for $10,000 or an 18 hour train ride for $1,000? Which makes you sleep better, a night in a La Quinta Inn all in for $79 a night or The Four Seasons,a la carte @ $500 a night plus? Point made I think, noone should make up their mind based on one experience, give Amtrak a chance! If you choose not to, so be it, wont see you along the way but will lots of interesting,fun people and get to see fantastic scenery that doesnt look as good @ 35,000 feet!  And I'll continue to let Amtrak know about the GOOD,THE BAD AND THE INDIFFERENT!!!!


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## dlagrua (Jun 23, 2010)

The man is right. Go back to the days when George Pullman ran the sleepers. Each Porter was impecibly dressed, well trained and ready to serve the customer to the best of his ability with a smile. Today the onboard staff does have some (but not all) uncaring or disinterested service personel. In all fairness I must say that some aboard Amtrak are very good and willing to accomodate, but some are really bad. It is this inconsistancy that is sometimes hard to tolerate.

I move that we post the names here of employees on Amtrak that are both good and bad. While I do not remember the names of the bad service people on our last #29 CL train trip (6/9/10) I do remember that on train #30 CL returning from Chicago on 6/14, we encountered two that did a real good job and should be commended. One was a waitress girl named Robbie and a heavyset SCA by the name of Darrell. These two employees were friendly, helpful, cheerful and courteous. They did their job well, were tipped accordingly and are an asset to Amtrak.

As for comparing Amtrak personnnel to those doinf first class work on airplanes. There is a difference between having a private sector job where you can get fired and having a government job where you are all but entrenched as a permanent lifetime employee.


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## Donctor (Jun 23, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> As for comparing Amtrak personnnel to those doinf first class work on airplanes. There is a difference between having a private sector job where you can get fired and having a government job where you are all but entrenched as a permanent lifetime employee.


That's true. Which is the government job?


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## sunchaser (Jun 23, 2010)

Amtking said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > As for comparing Amtrak personnel to those doing first class work on airplanes. There is a difference between having a private sector job where you can get fired and having a government job where you are all but entrenched as a permanent lifetime employee.
> ...


Isn't it true that both Airlines & Amtrak are typically union jobs? In my experience, most of the time, if you are in a union, it is difficult to be fired from that job.

While both Airlines & Amtrak receive subsidies, Amtrak is receives all funds & is 'owned' the by the Federal Government.

So technically, Amtrak jobs could be considered government jobs.

We have hashed & rehashed the pile of issues that Amtrak has many times on this board.

I don't think money is the only issue.

It may be that some, not all employees feel that their job at Amtrak could fold at any time because of lack of funding.

If you felt that you could lose your job at any time, you really would not care as much about your performance.

It may also be that some, not all don't like their job, but are not willing for whatever reason to seek another.

Some seem like they are going through the motions with their jobs, doing the bare minimum.

Others seem to do a bit more, because they are motivated by getting a good tip.

Still others seem to really enjoy their job, want to do it right, & go the extra mile to make the trip even more enjoyable.

All that being said, you will have that same behavior in any job. If someone is not doing their job, or the amenities are not available as advertised on amtrak.com, then you should call & let them know!!!

IMHO, I have flown more than riding the train. Flying has never been a great experience. It has degraded over the years, cutting back on services, while prices of course have gone up. Last summer, just prior to our first train ride, we had to fly to Ca for a funeral. I thought I had all the bases covered, & that we could have one bag each for free.. NOPE, we had to pay for both of them. Wow, we got a cookie, (hard as a rock) & part of a coke. Whoopie. I remember actually getting a meal on the same flight, & being able to smoke if I wanted, too. Couple that with having to empty my pockets, remove my shoes & be careful about how many liquids I have with me & being scanned for metal (sounds like what people in jail have to go through), it is not worth the hassle unless it's my only option!


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## but that's the point (Jun 23, 2010)

jimhudson said:


> Lots of good posts here, especially notable are Mr. FSS and penny k, pretty much explains the situation!  As for me, I'd rather be on a train going anywhere,anytime and I'm no Amtrak employee or apologist but am a retired government employee! While maybe not the most traveled person on this forum, I am amongst them, and Ill be the first to say EVERYTHING can be made better with more funding,more training, more supervision IF the customers are willing to pay for it! (AKA taxes, there is no free lunch!) In closing, since tastes vary, which is better: an 18 hour over the pond flight for $10,000 or an 18 hour train ride for $1,000? Which makes you sleep better, a night in a La Quinta Inn all in for $79 a night or The Four Seasons,a la carte @ $500 a night plus? Point made I think, noone should make up their mind based on one experience, give Amtrak a chance! If you choose not to, so be it, wont see you along the way but will lots of interesting,fun people and get to see fantastic scenery that doesnt look as good @ 35,000 feet!  And I'll continue to let Amtrak know about the GOOD,THE BAD AND THE INDIFFERENT!!!!


If people like you continually inform Amtrak as to good and bad experiences/employees, then why doesn't the message get translated down to the workers and overall improvement result?

Perhaps Amtrak is not a government corporation perse, but the employees do have the attitude that they are immune from the consequences of offering mediocre service.

I think everyone would be willing to pay $5 to $10 more a ticket if that money was used specifically to educate employees on the imperative of providing friendly, professional service at all times and to arrange supervision so that such service is consistently provided.

In my own experience, I had a bad experience on the Sunset and told the conductor, in a very polite, almost apologetic way, about it. He shrugged and said to call Amtrak after the trip was over. (I later found out that since the conductors, tho nominally in charge of the train, only ride short distances and don't much care to get involved in on-board service matters.) I did call Amtrak public relations and got a voucher for $75 after some 15 minutes of explaining and re-explaining what had happened. Nice gesture. I never used it, tho. $75 doesn't go very far in paying for a sleeper trip in the hundreds of dollars, and I just didn't want to risk another bad experience.

I was no way irate to the level of the OP, but I have ended up not riding Amtrak again except for one- or two-hour trips, where all I expect is a seat acceptable for parking my rear-end for that time period. I do like train travel, but I do not like gambling with my money, whether it is for a long-distance train ride with decent service or a Las Vegas slot payoff.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 23, 2010)

but that said:


> I think everyone would be willing to pay $5 to $10 more a ticket if that money was used specifically to educate employees on the imperative of providing friendly, professional service at all times and to arrange supervision so that such service is consistently provided.


I don’t know about everyone. Some folks use Amtrak for commuting or for other relatively short trips. If I'm riding from San Antonio to Austin and paying $15 all-in I might not be too happy with an extra fee that costs 30-60% of my ticket price. Not that your idea is a bad one, it just might not be appealing to everyone who rides. As for me I'm wondering if Amtrak could actually move in the opposite direction by _unbundling_ the costs that pay for the SCA and make that an extra fee paid by folks who actually want whatever it is the SCA’s do for them.



but that said:


> In my own experience, I had a bad experience on the Sunset and told the conductor, in a very polite, almost apologetic way, about it. He shrugged and said to call Amtrak after the trip was over.


It’s hard to judge the response without knowing what the “bad experience” was. Care to elaborate?


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## AlanB (Jun 23, 2010)

but that said:


> If people like you continually inform Amtrak as to good and bad experiences/employees, then why doesn't the message get translated down to the workers and overall improvement result?


The message does get translated down and things have improved considerably from where they used to be. The issue is that it does take time and it does take more than just the word of one passenger. And far too many passengers either never say anything or if they do complain, they don't have the name of the crew member. Amtrak is a union shop; they can't just fire someone at the drop of a hat. It takes multiple complaints and documentation to force someone out; as I understand it from GG-1 who is in a union (not Amtrak) and has been in a position of considerable responsability within a union, it's quite an involved process to terminate an employee. Making matters tougher, even if the union knows that the person in question is useless and worthy of being fired, by Federal law the union must still fight to protect that member's job. If they don't fight, they could lose their ability to remain a union.

And for all those who think that management doesn't ride trains; let me tell you that they do. They aren't on every train, but they are on far more trains than many people here seem to think. I've bumped into more than one during my travels. But remember, more supervision means greater cost to Amtrak and it means 1 less roomette available for sale!


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## rrdude (Jun 23, 2010)

Amtking said:


> alanh said:
> 
> 
> > Amtking said:
> ...


Watched the "Hitler clip" many times, months ago, and both agree and disagree with JS. But the point is, it is a way to simply *EMPHASIZE* how bad (usually) a situation was. I mean, how far can "political correctness" go?

I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!


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## Ryan (Jun 23, 2010)

It's not a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of perspective. It's not all that different than when my 7 year old acts like it's the end of the world when he's not allowed to do something.

Some people grow up and gain that sense of perspective. Others? Not so much.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 23, 2010)

rrdude said:


> Watched the "Hitler clip" many times, months ago, and both agree and disagree with JS. But the point is, it is a way to simply *EMPHASIZE* how bad (usually) a situation was. I mean, how far can "political correctness" go? I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!


It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with making a logical argument based on a reasonable position. Equating anything as trivial as a disappointing train trip with mass genocide is just plain ludicrous to anyone above the age of fifteen. It's basically the same as admitting you have no ability to form a coherent response and are thus giving up and shutting down your overheated brain. Whenever I see people make enormous leaps like this it just confirms they're not capable of being reasoned with. Frankly, I'm getting a similar vibe from you right now. You seem to be having a highly emotional response to a rather obvious and mundane rebuke.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 23, 2010)

daxomni said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > Watched the "Hitler clip" many times, months ago, and both agree and disagree with JS. But the point is, it is a way to simply *EMPHASIZE* how bad (usually) a situation was. I mean, how far can "political correctness" go? I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!
> ...


The whole Hitler and **** reference was a brain hickup. It made me think of this clip


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## BlueJeanGirl (Jun 23, 2010)

ALC does not work for Amtrak. This has been repeatedly stated in this thread.

I, however, do.

I'm terribly sorry your recent experience with Amtrak was not to your satisfaction. I really am. Please call 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245) with train numbers, room numbers, reservation numbers, dates, and names, and please file a complaint with Customer Relations.

Continuing to complain on this forum will get you nowhere.

For many years, Amtrak has operated with aging rolling stock (as has been stated previously in this thread) and insufficient funding (as has also been stated previously in this thread).

Add to that an aging workforce, inept management, and other factors beyond the control of the train crew (who do not stock the linen closet, for example; that's the job of the contract commissary employees,) and you will be dissatisfied.

I hope you find air travel more to your liking. Please do not board one of my trains: we will both be happier that way.

~Blue Jean Girl

(I also wish to address the observations regarding inconsistencies in service: you're dealing with humans.)



Jack Boudreaux said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Okay for like the third time..
> ...


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks BJG, couldn't have said it better!  Makes me think of the old saying about flying updated for today:

Fly the UNFRIENDLY SKIES of _________!!!! :angry:


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## frj1983 (Jun 23, 2010)

To show that this does not happen just on Amtrak:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/06/23/trave...dex.html?hpt=T2

An interesting read........ :huh:


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## oldtimer (Jun 23, 2010)

AlanB said:


> but that said:
> 
> 
> > If people like you continually inform Amtrak as to good and bad experiences/employees, then why doesn't the message get translated down to the workers and overall improvement result?
> ...


A disclaimer first: I was a 36 year Amtrak employee that was put on disability by Amtrak one year to the day before my scheduled retirement.

Alan your information from GG1 is basically correct. The rail industry is covered by the Railway Labor Act, which predates almost if not all current labor regulation. I have a BA in management and some post grad work in labor relations and collective bargaining and have served as a uniion representative in many positions for more then 25 years of my Amtrak career. The problem with dismissing an employee lies in the facts that the company is the judge, jury, and executor at the first hearing and is very quick to dismiss employees. ( NO ONE at Amtrak has a "job for life".)

Some departments do formal consoling before the first hearing but others do not. If discipline is assessed at the first hearing it is appealed and all appeals are just rubber stamps at Amtrak. No part of this process is really fair and impartial. The final decision is usually made by some form of arbitration (there as several.)

If the initial charge was not well prepared by the Amtrak manager the impartial arbitrator will either mitigate or completely overturn the decision and if that is done the employee is returned to service and all of his losses are made up by Amtrak.

I have represented Amtrak employees at hundreds of these investigations and can tell you that discipline is assessed. Employees are given time off and even dismissed. In most cases the discipline is needed, but as Alan B stated that the union has a "duty of representation" for all members be they good or bad.

The union does not like the bad apples but as I have told many an Amtrak manager, The union did not hire them and Amtrak had an opportunity to outright dismiss them in their probationary period.

I can personally tell you that many bad apples have been dismissed and the dismissal sustained. It is the dismissals that are overturned that give some employees the felling that they are untouchable. The overturned decisions are maybe 1 in 25.

Another Amtrak morale lowering fact has been that the company in the past has used the Railway Labor Act to draw out the negotiation period for years, in a recent session it was over 8 years for a significant number of Amtrak employees. This combined with an uncertainty of funding (which translates to will I have a job in October). does not help the morale. Hope and Change have arrived at Amtrak as now it is a priority for the Obama Administration as five years authorization has been made and Amtrak has made a contract offer to the unions in a timely manner.

PS Alan out here in the wilderness(not on the NEC or west coast) management riding trains if like finding hen's teeth.

 :unsure:


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## AlanB (Jun 23, 2010)

oldtimer2 said:


> PS Alan out here in the wilderness(not on the NEC or west coast) management riding trains if like finding hen's teeth.


That's actually pretty funny then, as in all of my travels, I've only ever encountered one supervisor on a corridor train; an Acela out of Boston. And we just happened to have a very good crew in FC that day, one I had seen several times before, so I knew that they weren't just "behaving" because the manager was there. I made it a point to talk with that manager and let him know about the FC crew, which coincidentally happend to be his crew since they were Boston based just like him. He was most receptive and thanked me for letting him know my thoughts.

It's been on the LD's where I've seen the most management over the years, and while I've covered almost all the LD routes now from end to end, I do far more riding on the NEC. But I've met, or at least seen, management of some level on about 7 or 8 LD's over the last 10 years. So either I'm extremely lucky, with an average of 3 or 4 LD rides per year, or there are more managers out and about than people think.

Ps. Thanks for the rundown on the union stuff, most informative!


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## rrdude (Jun 23, 2010)

BlueJeanGirl said:


> ALC does not work for Amtrak. This has been repeatedly stated in this thread.
> . *Please do not board one of my trains: we will both be happier that way*.
> 
> ~Blue Jean Girl
> ...


But to state "........*Please do not board one of my trains*.........."

Reminds me of a quote from the movie Rudy, when the coach was talking to a back-up QB, who knew he would never play a single down for the Irish, he said something to the effect, "*You just summed up your entire sorry career here in one sentence! If you had a tenth of the heart of Ruettiger, you'd have made All-American by now! As it is, you just went from third team to the prep team! Get out of here!........*."

I think you summarized the attitude of FAR TOO MANY Amtrak employees. Perfect, Amtrak perfect. Let me know WHAT trains you work, I'll do MY best to avoid them.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 23, 2010)

rrdude said:


> I think you summarized the attitude of FAR TOO MANY Amtrak employees. Perfect, Amtrak perfect. Let me know WHAT trains you work, I'll do MY best to avoid them.


Yeah, I was actually thinking the same thing. Guess it was just meant to throw more fuel onto the fire. Oh well, stay classy Amtrak. <_<


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## Trogdor (Jun 23, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> Amtrak is receives all funds & is 'owned' the by the Federal Government.


Actually, over 65% of Amtrak's funds come from passenger revenues.

Even if you are only considering subsidies, a decent amount of money comes from state governments.


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## Big Iron (Jun 23, 2010)

oldtimer2 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > but that said:
> ...



I went from a management position to a sales position within the company I work for. Now I don't manage employees and am much happier. It is equally as difficult to document a case to dismiss a bad employee in the private sector as it appears to be in a union shop. The one difference is, in the private sector, the option of arbitartion does not generally exist. The end result, union or not, is that a bad employee has the opportunity to poison the company over and again until the disciplinary system catches up with them.

Mr. Oldtimer2, if you were part of the on board service staff for Amtrak, what type of customer service training did you receive? Not trying to bait you just genuinely interested in how Amtrak trains on board service staff to deal with the riding public.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 23, 2010)

daxomni said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > I think you summarized the attitude of FAR TOO MANY Amtrak employees. Perfect, Amtrak perfect. Let me know WHAT trains you work, I'll do MY best to avoid them.
> ...


Actually she pointed out many faults in Amtrak, including 'inept management'... that could really get her in trouble. She's being honest.

The 'stay off my train' sentiment comes from the fact that some of you are being silly.

I'll add to the sentiment. Pax who can't keep their mouth shut about how sucky things are, are the reasons I wear big-ass headphones when I travel.

I hope we never meet in person, be it on a train, plane, or in outer-space. It would be an annoyance of the highest calibre.


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## Donctor (Jun 23, 2010)

oldtimer2 said:


> PS Alan out here in the wilderness(not on the NEC or west coast) management riding trains if like finding hen's teeth.
> :unsure:


I happened to walk down Canal as 8/28 arrived into CHI today (late), and there were a few business cars on the end.  I assume that means Boardman was riding. Consist:

113 — P42DC

19 — P42DC

1249 — Heritage Baggage

32015 — Superliner I Sleeper

31030 — Superliner I Coach/Bag

34085 — Superliner I Coach

33006 — Superliner I Lounge

34026 — Superliner I Coach

31026 — Superliner I Coach/Bag

38000 — Superliner I Diner

32001 — Superliner I Sleeper

32005 — Superliner I Sleeper

39015 — Superliner II Trans-Dorm

10021 — Heritage Sleeper (ex-crew dorm; business car)

10031 — Heritage Dome/Lounge (business car)

10001 — Beech Grove


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## sunchaser (Jun 23, 2010)

Amtking said:


> oldtimer2 said:
> 
> 
> > PS Alan out here in the wilderness(not on the NEC or west coast) management riding trains if like finding hen's teeth.
> ...


What! No pictures??


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 24, 2010)

darien-l said:


> Have you ever had an SCA who was nowhere to be found when it was time to turn-down or make up you bed? Or one that didn't deliver a newspaper in the morning, or made sure coffee was available?


Not one. Not ever.



dlagrua said:


> The man is right. Go back to the days when George Pullman ran the sleepers.


Absolutely. Lets go back to the time when they were underpaid, overworked, and forced to sleep in a bathroom with a worn out blanket. Lets go back to a time where they were treated with disrespect by everybody.

Finally, I am sick of your whining about service on Amtrak. This Jack dude hasn't hit any nails on the head. He's so far off, I think I'd like it if he hit himself on the head.

Some people are simply never happy and like to complain about everything. We have invented things for people like this in real life. We call them "ear plugs". On the internet, it is even simpler. You determine that the person is that kind of [troll], and hit the little "x".


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 24, 2010)

AlanB said:


> but that said:
> 
> 
> > If people like you continually inform Amtrak as to good and bad experiences/employees, then why doesn't the message get translated down to the workers and overall improvement result?
> ...


a supervisor was on 352 the wolverine on may 9th riding in the snack car. a union rule that needs to be changed is the 10 billion page report that needs to be filed before a person can be fired.


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## Roadfool (Jun 24, 2010)

Ok, I didn't read all 4 pages, so sorry if this has been said before. Even if Congress did approve more Amtrak funding, I don't really want my tax dollars to subsidize the "pampering" of people like the OP who think they're above mingling with the unwashed masses in coach. Amtrak is public transportation, not the Orient Express. It has to strike a balance between luxury amenities and pricing itself out of the range of the average person.

And before anyone says anything about the high price of bedrooms, on a train you're paying for space more than amenities. Someone else here probably has done the math before, but I'm guessing Amtrak could make more money per square foot by cramming in some extra rows of coach seats instead of the 5 or 10 bedrooms on each train.

No, I'm not an Amtrak employee or apologist. I used to be a bean counter (accountant) and I understand that the two sides of the ledger always have to balance out. Posts like the OP that complain about amenities always amuse me because they seem to expect money to just magically appear without affecting fare prices or reducing the funds available for equipment repair and maintenance.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 24, 2010)

rude service is everywhere you got some amtrak employees who are the best of the best and some who are average. you want consistency with service tell Amtrak to hire robots. shut up and enjoy the ride already.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 24, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> darien-l said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever had an SCA who was nowhere to be found when it was time to turn-down or make up you bed? Or one that didn't deliver a newspaper in the morning, or made sure coffee was available?
> ...


LOL! What an attitude. I'm no troll. Look when you can't get a cold drink and the AC isn't working well that is pretty bad service. It is endemic to Amtrak. They don't care. You would like to fight me? Amtrak service on a whole was bad. My first attendant on the way up was rather good so I tipped him. On the way back it was horrible. With your attitude as far as I know you could have been the attendant on the way down.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 24, 2010)

Roadfool said:


> Ok, I didn't read all 4 pages, so sorry if this has been said before. Even if Congress did approve more Amtrak funding, I don't really want my tax dollars to subsidize the "pampering" of people like the OP who think they're above mingling with the unwashed masses in coach. Amtrak is public transportation, not the Orient Express. It has to strike a balance between luxury amenities and pricing itself out of the range of the average person.
> 
> And before anyone says anything about the high price of bedrooms, on a train you're paying for space more than amenities. Someone else here probably has done the math before, but I'm guessing Amtrak could make more money per square foot by cramming in some extra rows of coach seats instead of the 5 or 10 bedrooms on each train.
> 
> No, I'm not an Amtrak employee or apologist. I used to be a bean counter (accountant) and I understand that the two sides of the ledger always have to balance out. Posts like the OP that complain about amenities always amuse me because they seem to expect money to just magically appear without affecting fare prices or reducing the funds available for equipment repair and maintenance.


If you are going to be on the train for 26 hours with small children and could afford a room you should get one. It has nothing to do with being an snob. Pampering was a poor choice of words. If expecting the AC to work and staying hydrated is pampering then I guess that is what I wanted. If wondering why they couldn't buy some thicker sheets at Wal-Mart so my head doesn't have to rest where thousands have laid theirs is pampering then I guess that is what I wanted. Being critical can help to improve service. I will not waste my time nor money on the current Amtrak.


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## Trogdor (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack, I thought you said you were "done."


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## Donctor (Jun 24, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> Amtking said:
> 
> 
> > oldtimer2 said:
> ...


Someone else may have taken a video with his cell phone.

If someone on AU lives in WAS, he or she might be able to get the cars on 30. I assume the cars went east last night because they are in neither the station nor the yard, and when Boardman comes through Chicago, it almost always involves the Capitol Limited.


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## Donctor (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Being critical can help to improve service.


Not the way you're approaching it.



Jack Boudreaux said:


> I will not waste my time nor money on the current Amtrak.


I understand the monetary aspect. If you don't want to waste your time on Amtrak, why are you posting? It seems like you're just getting angrier without accomplishing what you want.

If you really do feel cheated, make sure to tell Amtrak.


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## rrdude (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Roadfool said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I didn't read all 4 pages, so sorry if this has been said before. Even if Congress did approve more Amtrak funding, I don't really want my tax dollars to subsidize the "pampering" of people like the OP who think they're above mingling with the unwashed masses in coach. Amtrak is public transportation, not the Orient Express. It has to strike a balance between luxury amenities and pricing itself out of the range of the average person.
> ...


Jack, I agree with virtually all of your comments, and strongly urge you to do two things: 1) Write Amtrak Customer Service about them, 2)Stay on this board, we need more ppl who "tell it like it is". 3)Make every effort possible to ride a Via Rail LD train. (OK, three things) I put off riding Via Rail for years, cause I thought it was "just too hard to get to a starting point" for a LD trip. This year I've been on Via Rail twice, and all I can say is, the difference between amenities and ATTITUDE is like the difference between "Disney-Trained Employees" and "UAW union members, bitter with their life." (OK apologists, I _was_ a member of UAW years ago, and *YES there are GOOD Amtrak employees*, just not ENUFF of them)


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## Roadfool (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> If you are going to be on the train for 26 hours with small children and could afford a room you should get one. It has nothing to do with being an snob. Pampering was a poor choice of words. If expecting the AC to work and staying hydrated is pampering then I guess that is what I wanted. If wondering why they couldn't buy some thicker sheets at Wal-Mart so my head doesn't have to rest where thousands have laid theirs is pampering then I guess that is what I wanted. Being critical can help to improve service. I will not waste my time nor money on the current Amtrak.


It wasn't the pampering comment that really bothered me, it was the comment about not having to go to the lounge and deal with the coach passengers that you had paid good money to avoid. You do realize some of those people in the diner with you are coach pax, right? The only way to avoid mixing with the general public is to hide in your room and have all your meals delivered.

I don't think anyone's disputing that the AC should have worked. That's why they've told you to call Amtrak and ask for a voucher. Yes, ideally every train would work perfectly and there would be no equipment failures, but that's not reality. Amtrak is working with limited resources and has to service a lot of people. If they cut the frequency of each route, they'd have more backup equipment available, but then everyone would be complaining about not having daily service. Like I said before, it's a balancing act. Money or improvements don't just appear out of thin air.

I'm not sure why you couldn't get any water. Every train I've been on has had a cold water spigot right there by the stairs. Of course, it's just lowly tap water, but it beats suffering from dehydration.

Ok, I've tried to type this a few times and I don't know how to address the thin sheet issue tactfully, so I'm just gonna leave it at this. Public transportation probably isn't a great choice for germophobes. I've honestly never heard of anyone being concerned about germs from the mattress coming through the sheets because they're too thin. Maybe bring thicker sheets from home if that's such a problem?


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

Perhaps he has Howard hughes Syndrome  (germaphobia), can only be around certain people (in HH's case Mormons), and is so wealthy he throws away his linen each day and sleeps on new,500 count sheets! <_< Ive never been in any hotel/train or spent the night in other peoples house where linens that none else had ever slept on were provided! Perhaps he'd like a food tester also since strangers work in the diner and might have contaminted it! A real PIA!!!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 24, 2010)

Maybe we could drop the confrontation level down a notch or two as the OP appears to have calmed down a bit. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people who are genuinely disappointed with Amtrak staff and service so long as they keep things in perspective. The thread started on the wrong foot, no doubt, but it became a fun and interesting read anyway.


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## guest (Jun 24, 2010)

daxomni said:


> Maybe we could drop the confrontation level down a notch or two as the OP appears to have calmed down a bit. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people who are genuinely disappointed with Amtrak staff and service so long as they keep things in perspective. The thread started on the wrong foot, no doubt, but it became a fun and interesting read anyway.


Maybe everything on this thread comes down to whether you ride trains because you like trains--and are willing to put up with the up-and-down service of Amtrak--or whether you occasionally want to spring for the extra cost of a sleeper on a train as opposed to fighting your way through TSA and crowded air terminals onto an airplane.

Those who are the occasional riders are much more likely to react to poor service, since their ride is truly a choice on their part. I fear that the spotty service record of Amtrak turns many of these potential long-term (not long-distance) riders away from considering Amtrak a realistic alternative to flying.

There has to be a middle ground between VIA Rail, with its superb trains but high, high prices, and the present Amtrak, where the chance that you will get great service as opposed to mediocre service is just that, a chance.

Too many on this board like to cite United Airlines, when confronted with the fact that Amtrak can and does fail to deliver on its marketing spiel. In other words, they're saying that airlines are as bad as Amtrak. Why not instead cite Southwest, which manages to have pleasant employees, clean planes, and safe on-time flights? And by citing Southwest, don't you then challenge the critical mass of Amtrak employees to take genuine pride in their product and transmit that pride to every passenger?


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 24, 2010)

guest said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe we could drop the confrontation level down a notch or two as the OP appears to have calmed down a bit. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people who are genuinely disappointed with Amtrak staff and service so long as they keep things in perspective. The thread started on the wrong foot, no doubt, but it became a fun and interesting read anyway.
> ...


If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.

http://www.bahn.com/i/view/DEU/en/services/index.shtml


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.


Except that there are already two problems with that. First of all, European train systems generally come with much _more_ government funding and involvement, not less. If we refuse to task the government with taking responsibility for our trains we must depend on a private market that has most of its passenger transportation funding still tied up in airlines that have long struggled to earn meaningful profits for decades. Also, as much as we may be disappointed with Amtrak it's nowhere near as bad as many of the trains in "third world" countries. I might complain mightily about Amtrak but I'll never claim it's as bad as your run-of-the-mill Indian train. Seriously, as bad as it may be Amtrak is still _far_ better than what many countries call a train system, including with regard to amenities, cleanliness, speed, and safety. On the other hand, even trains in backwater non-industrialized countries routinely carry a far larger percentage of the population and a much reduced cost than Amtrak ever has or probably ever will. So at least they have that going for them I suppose.


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## sunchaser (Jun 24, 2010)

I knew this was coming. I have been wondering if anyone could really do a comparison between the trains elsewhere.

You would first have to pick the same distance for each train, the same amenities, etc.

Then you would have to adjust for price/dollar amount between the trains.

With many european trains, meals are not included, & service is minimal.

They are, however, better maintained from what I can see from pictures.

There are several people who ride trains all over the world-I would like to hear comparisons from them.

I guess it really depends on what is most important to you.

I understand your disappointment, I really do. If I had not found this board before we went on our first trip, I would have not had enough info & would have been VERY upset.

I have suggested that you contact Amtrak directly.

If you haven't, they will not be aware of your situation & try to rectify it on that train in the future. Just like with any company, if you allow a situation to be ignored by not letting the company know, then IMHO, you have no room to complain.

I'm not trying to insult you or get you mad, just trying to encourage you to think about it.

I would love to have the money to blow to fly to another country & ride their trains, just for fun.

Unfortunately, like most here, we don't have that ability.

Again, remember that Amtrak is funded by the taxpayer & riders. Amtrak, therefore, has their hands tied, period.

You will find many people here that agree that Amtrak needs to improve, me included.


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## AAARGH! (Jun 24, 2010)

daxomni said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.
> ...


Also, the missions are different (except for in the U.S. corridors). European countries are much smaller than the U.S. To compare an Amtrak long distance train to most of what Europe has is an apples to oranges comparison. A better comparison would be the NEC to what they have.

IIRC, Caravanman (an avid Amtrak rider from England) thinks Amtrak does a better job than they do in England (correct me if I am wrong). Also, IIRC (again) it is the French, German, and Swiss trains that are considered to be the beast, while the rest (Spain, Italy, England, etc...) are considered to be fair to marginal.

So for a true comparison, Amtrak holds up pretty well in my opinion, especially compared to systems with significantly more government funding.


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## frj1983 (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> guest said:
> 
> 
> > daxomni said:
> ...


Well I just got back from England a short time ago and rode trains all over the country. Guess what? Some of the service was really good and some of it was really bad. Some of the equipment worked really well and some of it looked old and outdated and didn't work very well. Some of the trains were right on time and some were quite late. And lastly some of the train attendants were really good and some weren't. Does this sound familiar?

The one thing I really like, though, is the fact that there are many different trains (operating companies) running more often to more places. Yes I know England is much smaller, but they are spending money and trying to improve service, Amtrak has been starved for so long I think it will really take time to improve.

And Jack I'm sorry you didn't have such a great trip, I'm surprised that it happened lately as most of my horror stories have been in the past. As others have encouraged you to call Amtrak and let them know what happened...so do I. A number of posts up I put a link about bad service across the travel industry, I think it's time for all of us to let any management group know when service has been terrible, if we don't say something, how will they know?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 24, 2010)

AAARGH! said:


> Also, the missions are different (except for in the U.S. corridors). European countries are much smaller than the U.S. To compare an Amtrak long distance train to most of what Europe has is an apples to oranges comparison.


I'm not sure I agree that it's as different as most Americans seem to feel. We have substantially similar airline options, so why not trains? If you can't compare France or Germany to the US can you compare them to Texas or California? If so we're still way, way behind. California is trying but has no money so everything will be on hold for years or decades as they can't raise taxes or cut other funding easily. There's also the potential for them to swing toward the anti-government right in the next election cycle. Texas drew up a plan and then quickly shelved it as soon as the local airlines balked. Trust me, so long as even one airline remains in Texas we won't ever risk angering them again. The NEC is certainly the closest we can get to European standards but it's still many billions of dollars away from approaching what France or Germany can provide and I don't see that changing anytime soon.



AAARGH! said:


> IIRC, Caravanman (an avid Amtrak rider from England) thinks Amtrak does a better job than they do in England (correct me if I am wrong). Also, IIRC (again) it is the French, German, and Swiss trains that are considered to be the beast, while the rest (Spain, Italy, England, etc...) are considered to be fair to marginal.


I think that might be a little outdated. England is definitely behind France and Germany (and Japan) but they're currently upgrading some lines and are at least trying to catch up somewhat from the looks of it. They are also part of the Eurostar service which is pretty damn impressive in my book. I'd have to hear more to understand how England is worse than (or even equal to) Amtrak in general. I'd also contest Spain being worse than (or equal to) Amtrak. In fact the only country I can agree with at first glance is Italy, which isn't that surprising since Berlusconi remains even worse than Bush when it comes to helping improve his own country. Amtrak may have been better than England and Spain many years ago, but while America's Amtrak has largely stagnated for most of its life other countries have followed the decisive revivalist path and made substantial long-term investments in their passenger rail systems.



AAARGH! said:


> Amtrak holds up pretty well in my opinion, especially compared to systems with significantly more government funding.


I agree that in many respects Amtrak simply does what it can but I'm not sure that's going to be a huge selling point for any improvements. Most folks who are disappointed with Amtrak aren't going to have the time or inclination to come to AU to understand all the why's and wherefores. They'll just assume Amtrak sucks and be done with it. Then when it's time to vote for a politician who wants to fund Amtrak they'll be against it and nothing will ever improve. Or at least that's my concern.


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## darien-l (Jun 24, 2010)

If we're going to do comparisons, allow me compare to a system that I'm very familiar with and have logged about 50,000 km on: Russian Railways. I think it's a fair comparison because both Russia and the U.S. are large countries, and both have long-distance trains that travel great distances. So, let's begin:

FREQUENCY OF SERVICE: Russian railways has much better frequency of service. A wide variety of passenger trains (more on that later) traverses mainlines every 1-2 hours. You won't have to wait long to catch a train between, say, Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk. Off mainlines, service is less frequent, but generally is at least several times a day.

SLEEPER ACCOMODATIONS: Russian long-distance trains are composed of sleeper cars only. There is no coach seating: Russians shudder at the thought of spending the night in a seat. There are 3 classes of sleeper cars: SV (2-person compartment, 1st class), kupe (4-person compartment, 2nd class), and platskart (open configuration, 3rd class). A person traveling alone has a choice of buying out the whole compartment or being assigned roommates. Gender segregation is optional, but women traveling alone generally request female roommates. In addition, there are 3 classes of trains: firmennyi ("brand-name", top-of-the-line), skoryi ("express", middle-of-the-road), and passazhirskiy ("passenger", slow train, makes a lot of stops). This provides a lot of flexibility: a person wishing to be pampered can book SV (first class) on a firmennyi train (here's a random example: http://visual.rzd.ru/isvp/public/visual?STRUCTURE_ID=1039). On the other end of the scale, the cheapest way to travel is platskart (3rd class) on a passazhirskiy train: you are in a large dorm room on wheels, there are often issues with BO and other unpleasant smells, there is typically no air conditioning, and the toilets can be downright nasty. Amtrak sleeper service is about equivant to that on a skoryi (middle-of-the-road) train: the attendants there will provide the basics, but will not bend over backwards for you. One positive thing about Amtrak, though, is that all long-distance trains are equipped with showers. In Russia, generally only firmennyi trains traveling more than 2 days have shower compartments, and even that is a relatively new addition.

ON-TIME PERFORMANCE AND RELIABILITY: Generally a lot better in Russia. As in the U.S., passenger trains share tracks with freights almost everywhere, but passenger trains are always given the highest priority. A long-distance train that is delayed by more than an hour is considered "extremely late", and it hardly ever happens. Cancelled trains and bustitution is pretty much unheard of. Mechanical problems are rare.

OVERALL IMPRESSION: Traveling by train in Russia has generally been a better experience for me than in the U.S. (I am fluent in Russian, incidentally, so language hasn't been a problem). There is frequency, flexibility, consistency, and reliability that is lacking in the U.S. First class on long-distance trains is much nicer than Amtrak, third class is generally worse, but you get what you pay for. There's train service to just about all major cities, save for one or two in the remote reaches of Siberia (Yakutsk comes to mind, but a train line to it is being constructed right now). So whenever someone argues that trains will never work for the U.S. because it's "too big" or the population density is "too low", I always cite Russia as a working example.


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## darien-l (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.
> 
> http://www.bahn.com/i/view/DEU/en/services/index.shtml


Jack, you do realize that Deutsche Bahn is 100% owned by the German government, right? I'm just a little surprised that you cite it as an example of how things should be, given your previous anti-government sentiments.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 24, 2010)

Isn't RZhD state-owned...


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## darien-l (Jun 24, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Isn't RZhD state-owned...


Yes, it is. I never implied otherwise.


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## kal-tex (Jun 24, 2010)

darien-l said:


> If we're going to do comparisons, allow me compare to a system that I'm very familiar with and have logged about 50,000 km on: Russian Railways. I think it's a fair comparison because both Russia and the U.S. are large countries, and both have long-distance trains that travel great distances. So, let's begin:
> 
> FREQUENCY OF SERVICE: Russian railways has much better frequency of service. A wide variety of passenger trains (more on that later) traverses mainlines every 1-2 hours. You won't have to wait long to catch a train between, say, Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk. Off mainlines, service is less frequent, but generally is at least several times a day.
> 
> ...



I found this comparison to be fascinating - makes me want to head to Russia just to ride the trains! One question - how do the prices compare? Could an "average Joe" afford to ride first class?


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## Ryan (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.


Amtrak:







Third World:






Yep, you're right... They're exactly the same.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2010)

Should have added a pic of the second class sleepers and the thousands of people on the outside of the Indian trains that a member posted last year! (No offense to India, I know they have nice stuff also, it's just that the discepancie between the rich and the poor is so huge in third world countries, sounds like what our rich want here!)


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## darien-l (Jun 24, 2010)

kal-tex said:


> I found this comparison to be fascinating - makes me want to head to Russia just to ride the trains! One question - how do the prices compare? Could an "average Joe" afford to ride first class?


The last time I rode trains in Russia extensively was 2005, and prices have been rising consistently. In the late 90's, first class between Moscow and St. Petersburg could be had for about $40/person, for example. By 2005, it was over $100/person. I think nowadays, it's about $200/person. Still pretty reasonable, though.

Note: The prices above are if you book directly from Russian Railways (yes, you can book on their website these days). If you go through a travel agency, particularly a Russian one, you can easily pay twice the amount. Russian travel agencies love to milk foreigners for all they're worth.


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## rrdude (Jun 24, 2010)

I too had no idea they had that kind of top level service in Russia.

Comparisons can go on forever, but the comment that makes the most sense in ALL of this is the one that stated "....when the average Joe rides Amtrak, he expects AC that works, the train to be on time, and employees who are at least courteous....." (paraphrasing)

I honestly think that of all the ppl I have talked into riding Amtrak, more than half of them never will again. And I DON'T paint a false picture.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 24, 2010)

Some Indian trains don't look half bad.

My link


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 24, 2010)

rrdude said:


> I too had no idea they had that kind of top level service in Russia.
> 
> Comparisons can go on forever, but the comment that makes the most sense in ALL of this is the one that stated "....when the average Joe rides Amtrak, he expects AC that works, the train to be on time, and employees who are at least courteous....." (paraphrasing)
> 
> I honestly think that of all the ppl I have talked into riding Amtrak, more than half of them never will again. And I DON'T paint a false picture.


If half the people are not going to ride Amtrak again I guess the full trains are the same fools riding over and over again since they don't know any better! Just think, they could go out to the airport and have a fun flight or even better catch an overnight dog!Id say half is hyperbole, and I am no apologist for Amtrak,most of what the posters say about the bad and indifferent is true IN SOME INSTANCES!!


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## craftsman (Jun 24, 2010)

The trains are full because there are so few routes, they run infrequently, with not many cars.

There are 300+million people in the US, that's enough to supply first-and-only-time riders for a long, long time.

And you can always count on more than a few here who would ride trains even if they had to shovel the coal themselves.


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## Ryan (Jun 24, 2010)

craftsman said:


> The trains are full because there are so few routes, they run infrequently, with not many cars.
> 
> There are 300+million people in the US, that's enough to supply first-and-only-time riders for a long, long time.
> 
> And you can always count on more than a few here who would ride trains even if they had to shovel the coal themselves.


At roughly 30 million riders a year, that's only 10 years.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 24, 2010)

craftsman said:


> The trains are full because there are so few routes, they run infrequently, with not many cars.
> 
> There are 300+million people in the US, that's enough to supply first-and-only-time riders for a long, long time.
> 
> And you can always count on more than a few here who would ride trains even if they had to shovel the coal themselves.


The comment about shoveling coal is priceless!  If only you knew how many guys (and women on this forum) would love to be in a steamer as the engineer,fireman or even a deadhead rider! 

It might surprise some that the people most critical of the bad experiences on Amtrak are the train fans since we have experienced the good,the average and the bad and know that the bad is the exception and not the rule! :excl:

Compare that to the bad experiences that most people have now days on airplanes and the dog!!


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.
> 
> http://www.bahn.com/i/view/DEU/en/services/index.shtml


then don't come to this country. AMTRAK IS NOT THRID WORLD DOES AMTRAK LOOK LIKE THIS


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 24, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.
> 
> http://www.bahn.com/i/view/DEU/en/services/index.shtml


then don't come to this country. AMTRAK IS NOT THRID WORLD DOES AMTRAK LOOK LIKE THIS


Some of you guys are fan boys/girls. Our rails are pathetic. Yes I would pay more to get a more comfortable trip.


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## rrdude (Jun 24, 2010)

Or Jack, keep riding Amtrak, as much as you can stomach, and don't LET them give you bad service. Be nice, but say "no" when they try and seat you in one of those stooooopid CCC booths. Politely say "no thanks, I'll wait". And watch the attitude. Or when they ask you to wait, when there are many open tables, politely ask "why do I have to wait". There may well be a valid reason. (short of staff, reservations expected, short on temper)

Or if you are unfortunate enuff to get an unhappy SCA, FIND them, and politely inform them what you expect. You may or may not get it.

Many ppl feel that the "uniform" gives them this right of power or sense of power, and that they can treat you any way they want, and YOU have to like it, AND tip them. Sorry pal, not from me.

To me, the uniform means, "you are here to service me". I hold no unrealistic expectations of them, but have been pleasantly surprised from time to time.

Or just go ride Via, but don't take BlueJean Girl's train to get to the border! :blush:

Keep riding, hold staff's feet to the fire, compliment and tip when deserved, and most of all, KEEP POSTING here!


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## sunchaser (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Some Indian trains don't look half bad.
> 
> My link


Jack, did you look at the article?? It's an article about a couple from India who moved to Australia to start a winery. The 'train' in the picture has been converted into a cottage. This is their website!

Now, this would be a train to take IF you could afford it!!!


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## rrdude (Jun 24, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > Some Indian trains don't look half bad.
> ...


I honestly think he was just surfing for a photo. But that doesn't diminish his thoughts / remarks about Amtrak. "Don't kill the messenger, just because he brings unwanted news........"


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 24, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > Some Indian trains don't look half bad.
> ...


Yes I saw that after I posted it. I had tried to upload some pictures of Indian trains that were equal at least from the photo to Amtrak. Did you see that luxury Indian train video I posted? This country has let the rail system to rot. I guess the airlines have a hold on the market and the government isn't even interested to be competitive.


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## rrdude (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


Pendulum swung way to far in favor of other (competing) modes of transportation. (Interstate, and Air)

I would not say that the pendulum is heading in the other direction, yet. But it may have slowed down a bit.

It concerns the hell out of me though, when CHINA can spend HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars, in less than five years, and jump to the front of the game when it comes to HSR. It's all about commitment.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > If our trains were like the ones in Europe I would think many people would take a train over a plane. Amtrak is like a 3rd world operation.
> ...



America had that, it was called GrandLuxe :lol: Chapter seven.

Expensive total first-class trains like that only work in countries like India where there is an undeveloped regional airport system and a huge divide between rich and poor.

BTW next time you want to find a picture of something, don't leave the search field in Google Images up... "Best Indian Train" and you STILL had to go to the second results page! BTW here's a "real" Indian train's sleepers.






That Amtrak mat looking good yet? :lol:


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## sunchaser (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


I just looked at the India luxury train video.

You will note they don't post prices.

It is true that Amtrak does not compare to something like that.

But we are not comparing Luxury train rides to Amtrak, are we?

It really does depend on what you would consider First Class.

Are you expecting to be treated like royalty?

If so, then of course Amtrak won't even be close.

As I have said before, with our limited amount of train rides, it was pretty good for what we paid.

We didn't feel 'ripped off', but there were some maintenance issues with our sleeper.

We mulled it over for a bit before I emailed, & didn't get a response other than automated.

So I called, & they were understanding & apologetic. With no prompting, a voucher was sent out, which we used for another ride, which was much improved both ways over the one before that.

I would love to see the train service & luxury of yesteryear. Most here I think would too. I unfortunately never experienced any of that. Maybe someday, if I scrimp & save we might get to do a private rail tour like calzephyrrailcar.com. I still think you should call Amtrak. I'm beginning to get the impression that you just want to complain, period. If I'm wrong, I do apologize.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 24, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > sunchaser said:
> ...


No I'm not going to call Amtrak. They got me to and back from my destination in one peace. The attendant was not very good but he was not abusive just going through the motions. I just wish Amtrak was more comfortable and faster. I don't think I will live to see the day where are trains compare to those overseas. I could see where you might think I just want to complain but rather I wish I could do something about our rail system. I would pick a train over a plane any day if it was halfway comparable in speed and comfort. I checked out that California Zepher that is a bit over the top but it would be nice if all of Amtrak could come even close.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 24, 2010)

The simple fact of the matter is that at some point we all need to take responsibility for our positions. If we think Amtrak is unacceptable then we need to start reporting who and what exactly isn't living up to our expectations and get some eyeballs on the problem. Amtrak is not very nimble, they need to be actively pushed and prodded into better service. Personally I'd seriously consider just starting over again with a brand new system and a more honest mandate, but I don't think that's a practical solution at the moment. None the less we still have several remaining choices as critics. We can push Amtrak to get better or we can pony up the dough for private cars or we can simply give up on American rail and admit permanent defeat while other countries large and small eclipse our tired efforts and leave us in their dust. Of course if we give up then we also lose the right to complain about any of it. As for me, I've decided to start applying pressure on two fronts. First, whenever someone or something on the train fails to meet my expectations I'm going to follow up with Amtrak to make sure they know about it. Second, I'm going to ask my City Council why our current station has zero parking for a metro with two million citizens and is such a pain in the ass to get into and out of.


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## sunchaser (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


I know most here agree with you about comfort & speed & the things they promise but may not deliver. As someone who worked in Customer Service for different companies for years, I would much rather have someone call, no matter how upset they are & inform the company of a problem than just walk away. In our situation, speed is not an issue, but we do want to be comfortable during the ride. I can say that we did feel a bit spoiled/pampered on the train rides, even given that the equipment is worn & needs refurb/replacement. We have so far enjoyed the train rides & plan to do more.

I could be wrong, but the Zephyr rail tours are probably more like train riding was before Amtrak.

If you look at the trip reports, you will find good & bad trips. Most seem to be fairly good.

I hope if you decide to try again, that goes better. I would pick the Coast Starlight for service & attention to detail, but that's my personal preference. Hubby likes it the best too.


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## Trogdor (Jun 24, 2010)

So, we've gone from Amtrak is the equivalent of the holocaust, to Amtrak sucks because it doesn't provide luxury service fit for royalty, to Amtrak gets you there and back in once piece with employees that aren't abusive but just go through the motions of their job (which, by the way, is basically how most airline staff behave as well, it's just more noticeable on Amtrak because you're interacting with the staff more, and for longer periods of time).

All that, and this thread (which runs nine pages for me, though the page count may be dependent on your individual board settings) isn't even two days old yet.

Wow.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 24, 2010)

And we still aren't going to call Amtrak about it...


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## rrdude (Jun 24, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> And we still aren't going to call Amtrak about it...


Oh Hell, I'll call Amtrak. What do you want me to call them? Lord knows they've received enuff letters, emails, and phone calls from me over the years......


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 24, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> LOL! What an attitude. I'm no troll. Look when you can't get a cold drink and the AC isn't working well that is pretty bad service. It is endemic to Amtrak. They don't care. You would like to fight me? Amtrak service on a whole was bad. My first attendant on the way up was rather good so I tipped him. On the way back it was horrible. With your attitude as far as I know you could have been the attendant on the way down.


You are the definition of internet troll. I have travelled thousands and thousands of miles on Amtrak, including a nearly 10,000 mile trip last January and I have never experienced anything close to the quality of service you act like you received.



Guest said:


> Should have added a pic of the second class sleepers and the thousands of people on the outside of the Indian trains that a member posted last year! (No offense to India, I know they have nice stuff also, it's just that the discepancie between the rich and the poor is so huge in third world countries, sounds like what our rich want here!)


India is not the worlds wealthiest nation, nor its most developed, but like China, I would say it doesn't quite rank as "third world".



Jack Boudreaux said:


> Yea India has some bad trains but they also have this. I guess we can't keep up with Indian rails.
> 
> My link
> 
> Some of you guys are fan boys/girls. Our rails are pathetic. Yes I would pay more to get a more comfortable trip.


Oh, we sure could keep up with India's rails if we wanted to charge that kind of pricing for the train. What does that type of train cost? Thousands of dollars a person. The most luxurious train tour in India costs... $5600 a person for basic accomodations. That means that if you and your wife took it, it would cost you, ahem, $11,200.

If you want to spend that on your next rail trip, I would like to direct your attention to any number of private car leasing agencies that would be happy to make your desires a reality.


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## rrdude (Jun 24, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> LOL! What an attitude. I'm no troll. Look when you can't get a cold drink and the AC isn't working well that is pretty bad service. It is endemic to Amtrak. They don't care. You would like to fight me? Amtrak service on a whole was bad. My first attendant on the way up was rather good so I tipped him. On the way back it was horrible. With your attitude as far as I know you could have been the attendant on the way down.


You are the definition of internet troll. I have travelled thousands and thousands of miles on Amtrak, including a nearly 10,000 mile trip last January and I have never experienced anything close to the quality of service you act like you received.



Guest said:


> Should have added a pic of the second class sleepers and the thousands of people on the outside of the Indian trains that a member posted last year! (No offense to India, I know they have nice stuff also, it's just that the discepancie between the rich and the poor is so huge in third world countries, sounds like what our rich want here!)


India is not the worlds wealthiest nation, nor its most developed, but like China, I would say it doesn't quite rank as "third world".



Jack Boudreaux said:


> Yea India has some bad trains but they also have this. I guess we can't keep up with Indian rails.



GML, with all those miles traveled, you are one lucky Bast*** not to have experienced that. I'm glad for you, I really am. But that is not my experience at all, and I've logged a few in my life too. Early Amtrak, lots in the eighties, then a void in the nineties, and more again this past decade. The "mediocre" or "poor" have always prevailed. I'm guessing, maybe 70-30. Did I not love trains, and train travel, I would have given up loooooooong ago.

This year, Via Rail has recharged by rail travel batteries. And I have vastly lowered my expectations of Amtrak, so life is a little more realistic.

btw, Jack's no troll GML, he's just a passenger on a train, pissed off.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 24, 2010)

I'm around my 30,000th mile with all different routes and levels of service... never had a real reason to complain.


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## RTOlson (Jun 25, 2010)

I appreciate that the tone of the conversation has changed. I feel like I can contribute two things based on the original poster's concerns (based solely on what I've read here):

- Many sleeping car attendants keep ice available in a cooler in their room. They can't set it out for passengers' direct use, apparently due to federal health rules (and honestly, would you want ice after someone may have stuck their hands into the bag?).

- The soda thing has been beaten to death, but there are other drink options for passengers in the sleeping car -- including juice (at least in the morning) plus coffee and tap water. I suppose you might get 24/7 soda service on an airplane, but I've never had the desire to ask outside of the normal serving periods.

Hyperbole aside, I do feel that customers who feel they haven't received full value for their service should call Customer Service if only to help provide input on improving the service (or to seek compensation).

Many of us on this board seem good at managing expectations, in part because it's foolhardy to deny the reality of the existing service. However, I don't think it means that we stop expecting more from Amtrak.

Thanks for what has evolved into a good conversation.


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## dlagrua (Jun 25, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > Look I spent 26 hours up and down from DC. There is no reason why they can't have sodas etc... 24/7. I know the trains are old why not at least retro fit them with WiFi and dare I say a small flat TV screen in each sleeper? They do this on the airlines. Amtrak is offering a very slow service. They should at least equal airlines with comfort or at least try.
> ...


Solution: Install a small soda machine in the vestibule area of the sleepers and charge $1 per soda.

As for the movies, you could broadcast them via online wifi to people with laptops, iPads and personal communication devices. Most everyone carrys one of these devices these days


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 25, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


Sound like a plan to me. I'm willing to pay more. Also find something a little better to sleep on and fix the AC and I would have been a happy camper. We went to ridiculous levels comparing services but in reality it wouldn't take much in terms of money and commitment to make things much better.


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## Trogdor (Jun 25, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> Solution: Install a small soda machine in the vestibule area of the sleepers and charge $1 per soda.


I'm sure the maintenance alone would make that a serious money-loser.

Sliding off the topic of this thread, until a few years ago there used to be an "automat" car, which was basically a vending machine car, that operated on the Pere Marquette. I wonder how well that worked and how often the machines broke down (most vending machines are in stationary buildings that don't go over switches at 79 mph).

Still, if you're going to go through the trouble of installing extra machines (and I'm not sure where you'd even put them in a sleeper, because the vestibule area wouldn't be a good idea for safety reasons, and there's no room anywhere else), and still charge people for it, then why not just walk over to the cafe car and buy one there.



> As for the movies, you could broadcast them via online wifi to people with laptops, iPads and personal communication devices. Most everyone carrys one of these devices these days


Most people that carry a laptop, iPad, or other personal communication device also are able to put their own movies on said devices. There wouldn't really be a point to "broadcasting" a movie via WiFi.


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## frj1983 (Jun 25, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


And there Jack you have answered the unasked question that has been batted around here: Why is Amtrak not any better?

Answer: They've NEVER had the money and they've NEVER had the commitment from the govt to make things go right! Even now, I DOUBT the govt's commitment to Amtrak...talk about HSR, yeah sure talk is cheap, show me the money NOW! :wacko:


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## rrdude (Jun 25, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> Solution: Install a small soda machine in the vestibule area of the sleepers and charge $1 per soda.
> 
> I'm sure the maintenance alone would make that a serious money-loser.


I gotta agree, a vending machine on a train is just a bad idea ALL the way around. It MOST DEF would end up costing more than it EVER brought in. (There are exceptions, but in general)

The cars sit in hot, and sometimes cold yards for hours on end. Pilferage by yard employees and trespassers is ALWAYS gonna happen, the vibrations/movement as the OP said, etc., etc.

Heck, if it went into Sunnyside yard, I'd be surprised if the who damn machine wasn't stolen. I worked the old Broadway years ago, and when we got the equipment back for the return to Chicago, sometimes the kitchen, or the double-dinner-converted-into-a-snack-lounge would be almost completely stripped. I'm talking microwaves, TVs (duh) VCR players, ALL cooking utensils. Chafing dishes. It made for some interesting trips back west.

And then there were the times that LSA's (Which I was one of) literally thru POS units off of moving trains on the NEC. No kidding. MOW workers found the remains of some of the early IBM POS units on the ROW years ago. That of course is a WHOLE different story...........

But I'm hoping security has improved over the years....


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## haolerider (Jun 25, 2010)

rrdude said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Solution: Install a small soda machine in the vestibule area of the sleepers and charge $1 per soda.
> ...


This has always been one of the most depressing topics at Amtrak - the constant incidents of theft and destruction of property, which seemingly continues to happen with very little security and control. The cost to Amtrak for this kind of foolishness is tremendous and has resulted in the loss of the TVs in the roomettes and other amenities, basically because Amtrak could no longer afford to replace stolen and destroyed equipment. The idea of throwing POS units off the train is childish and immature, but I know it happened and continues to happen. There are new POS devices coming to Amtrak and they will save money, control inventory and allow Amtrak to better predict usage on board, but if the same attitude continues with the OBS staff, the new system does not stand a chance.


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## Jack Boudreaux (Jun 25, 2010)

haolerider said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


Who is doing the destruction? Employees or passengers? A small TV in the roomettes would be nice. Why are they not being prosecuted? Destruction of government property is a biggie. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01666.htm


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 25, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Who is doing the destruction? Employees or passengers? A small TV in the roomettes would be nice. Why are they not being prosecuted? Destruction of government property is a biggie. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01666.htm


First of all, Amtrak is not an appendage of the government. It's a corporation subsidized by the government. How many times do you expect us to explain this? As for personal televisions or movie screens I'd be all for it and I'm sorry to hear it's already been abandoned by Amtrak due to their inability to keep them from being damaged or stolen. This is one area they could have easily eclipsed domestic airlines. Oh well, yet another good idea flushed down the drain due to a lack of proper security.


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## rrdude (Jun 25, 2010)

It is downright depressing, the loss due to both employee and contractor theft or abuse.

Every company experiences this, Amtrak is no exception. The problem is indeed security. You have a rolling asset, secure in one yard one day, completely vulnerable the next day. Sunnyside, Chicago, Beech Grove, LAX, New Orleans, it happens everywhere.

I think the problem is bigger at Amtrak, and I do wonder, and have no knowledge, if this type of problem was common in the pre-Amtrak days, or was there just "less to steal"?

As for POS systems on board. Good luck. I was involved with two different pilot project involving POS systems on Amtrak. And at one of my demo's to upper-mgmt, I said "no matter who you choose as your vendor, just make sure the POS system is: Rugged, portable (so it can be taken off the train), lightweight, (LSA's have enuff to lug around) and EZ to use.

Amtrak-California tried them. (don't remember who vendor was) NEC tried them. (Ciao POS)& (IBM) and Intercity tried them (NCR)

Now they are just using "bangers", simple cash registers. Good luck.


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## alanh (Jun 25, 2010)

Re: the vending machines issue, people don't realize how much of a beating equipment on a train takes. It's actually very difficult (and expensive) to engineer something to take the vibration and shocks that a train can deliver, year after year. Especially if it has moving parts.

Ice is a recurring complaint; the problem is the FDA does not permit open ice chests because people stick their grubby hands into it. (Yes, some car attendants do leave ice out but they're not supposed to.) Someone uses the lavatory, doesn't wash their hands, goes over to the drinks station and grabs a fistful of ice for their drink. Eww, and this is what can happen.

So Amtrak can either not provide ice, install an ice dispenser (dealing with space, cost, and maintenance issues), or have the car attendant provide the ice.


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## Larry H. (Jun 25, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> And before you reply, let me just say this is perhaps the silliest thing I have read on these boards...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know we have butted heads previously here. Your attitude is what is wrong with the entire Amtrak System.. You have several writers here giving an honest opinion of how disappointed they found the quality of their Amtrak Experience, particularly with the cost of the fare. Its one thing to jack up fares as high as demand will permit, which is how they have operated with much support here for a long time, but its another to charge that kind of fare and over time decrease the quality of the experience, which is what people do object too. As usual we have some hard core, anything that runs on rails is fine, supporters who justify the most lax of service and quality. Worse yet is when an honest opinion is given they are then attacked by some of you as being almost stupid to have even considered that perhaps Amtrak might be offering the kind of service that the cost would infer. This isn't a new problem, nor will it go away. Rail is not a plane. Those who wish to be somewhere in a couple hours will not take the train Those who do fall for the advertising that its the Experience of getting there that is what Amtrak and a rail trip offer. Then when you get falling apart cars, surly crew, microwave food that less than you might expect and you pay several thousand for a room. Well anyone with a bit of introspection can see that this is not what many in the traveling public are expecting. I have met many people on board who were on their first rail trips in many years and many of them are not satisfied with the experience. We all know that some of this is government issues with money and politics, but it doesn't make matters any better for the person who buys the ticket. Canada appears to have at least a clue as to what it is that people want. We could do well to copy some of their goals.


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## Larry H. (Jun 25, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Alan,

I am a bit surprised that after the OP was attacked for his opinion you are supporting the attacker.


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## AlanB (Jun 25, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


Larry,

My response to Jack wasn't with regard the specific post that I quoted. I quoted this post because initially I was referring to the employment bit. I apologize for any confusion that the second paragraph caused. Perhaps I should have started a new post.

I then went on to caution Jack because he had made several other posts where his tone was either boarderline or out of line. In fact, at least one of Jack's posts was deleted by me. And just for the record, I also deleted several posts by other members who had attacked Jack personally too. So on the whole I think that I've been rather fair and balanced with things in this topic.


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## sunchaser (Jun 25, 2010)

daxomni said:


> Jack Boudreaux said:
> 
> 
> > Who is doing the destruction? Employees or passengers? A small TV in the roomettes would be nice. Why are they not being prosecuted? Destruction of government property is a biggie. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01666.htm
> ...


Are you sure that the government does not own Amtrak? I just did a search on google & ask, & there are plenty of answers saying yes they do. Bottom line on the articles I read, NRPC owns Amtrak, NRPC is owned by the government. Either all or part of the Amtrak stock is owned by the government. Funding comes from Congress (meaning the taxpayer, since Congress is not a business & they get their funding from us), & the farebox, meaning the riders, again that it us.

Edit: changed from NARP to NRPC BIG BOO BOO!!


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## Eric S (Jun 25, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Boudreaux said:
> ...


Without wading into the Amtrak/government question, I think you mean NRPC rather than NARP. NRPC (National Railroad Passenger Corporation) is Amtrak's formal name, while NARP (National Association of Railroad Passengers) is simply a pro-rail advocacy group.


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## sunchaser (Jun 25, 2010)

Eric S said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > daxomni said:
> ...


Thank you for the correction. I thought they were the same thing.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 25, 2010)

sunchaser said:


> Are you sure that the government does not own Amtrak?


That's a bit of a different question though, isn't it? You can say the government "owns" Amtrak but that alone does not make Amtrak a department or agency of the government, which is what was referred to in the link about destroying "government property" aboard trains. Some stations and facilities and land may be government property that is then leased to or otherwise set aside or made available for use by Amtrak. However, Amtrak owning any given device or facility is not enough for it to be considered government property. If Amtrak property is not government property then is Amtrak really part of the government?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 25, 2010)

Furthermore NRPC *is* Amtrak, the NRPC and Amtrak are virtual synonyms. The train is NRPC property and Boardman is the CEO or the NRPC, or you could say that the train is Amtrak property and that Boardman is Amtrak's CEO.

In any event it is the NRPC whose sole investor, and thus financial interest, is the US Congress. The relationship between Amtrak and Congress and Congress and some other corporations (such as AIG, of which Congress owned an 80% controlling interest) is not all that dissimilar, yet you don't see Congress becoming involved in AIG's day-to-day activities nor collecting its profit.

If Amtrak were to, somehow, turn a profit then it could hypothetically repay its loans and buy back its interests from Congress becoming 100% solvent. Of course it's a stretch to see if thats even possible.

So yes, Amtrak's financial interests are owned by the government. That doesn't make them government workers, hardly, at minimum 60% of their pay comes from the fare box. Another portion comes from private loans that Amtrak takes out to keep Federal subsidies to a minimum, and then, yes, a portion of their pay comes from money given to Amtrak from the Feds. That's the difference between a government worker and an employee of a government subsidized corporation. An employee of the Federal government gets a check from the US Treasury. An employee of Amtrak gets a check from Amtrak.

And yes, seriously, even the direct deposits say: *** TREAS 310 FED SALARY PPD ID: ##########

(Certain information censored to protect personal information.) Notice that the Federal employee clearly has "FED" next to the word "SALARY" and that the payee is the department of government (the first three censored letters) and the "TREAS" which stands for the US Treasury. The final censored numbers are the Payroll ID, which again is personal.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 25, 2010)

I mean if you're going to be silly about this, anybody who got any money from the stimulus funds are government employees. You could say your Doctor is a government employee because they receive money from Medicaid and Medicare, your barber because he received a small business loan, or a painter contracted to repaint a post office...


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## Tennessee Traveler (Jun 25, 2010)

Jack Boudreaux said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > A remarkably fast proof of Godwin's Law. I suppose the thread is closed now.
> ...


I wonder if you really rode the Cresent since those of us who ride Amtrak Sleepers know that Amtrak only serves Pepsi products -- so, no, no diet coke. I must say my sheets have been thick enough and the pillow slip thick enough that I did not notice if the pillow had black and white stripes. On my last ride on the Empire Builder we had Sierra Mist and Pepsi's available for the duration of the trip as well as coffee and juice. And my SCA was pleasant and available but not constantly badgering me to provide service. I personally like to be left to entertain myself than to being "pampered". And, yes, I fly first class occasionally and first class leaves a lot to be desired on domestic flights. Basically what you get is a larger seat and more leg room. Meals and beverage service can be hit or miss on my favorite airline.


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## sunchaser (Jun 25, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I mean if you're going to be silly about this, anybody who got any money from the stimulus funds are government employees. You could say your Doctor is a government employee because they receive money from Medicaid and Medicare, your barber because he received a small business loan, or a painter contracted to repaint a post office...


Aw, c'mon you know that's not what I mean at all. All extra funding goes through Congress, Congress holds the purse strings, so nothing happens without their say so.

A doctor may co-operate with government programs in order to be paid for services rendered for patients with Medicare or Medicaid, or even SCHIP, Champus or ChampVA. I currently have no doctor, because I haven't found one that will take the insurance I have.

As far as the stimulii, certain funds were tied to some control over how the money was spent.


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## tp49 (Jun 25, 2010)

The answer is this. Amtrak is considered a part of the government when it comes to violations of the individual rights guaranteed under the Constitution. In all other situations it is treated as if it is a private business entity. This comes from the Lebron case which was a First Amendment case.



> Amtrak is an agency or instrumentality of the United States for the purpose of individual rights guaranteed against the Government by the Constitution. This conclusion accords with the public, judicial, and congressional understanding over the years that Government created and -controlled corporations are part of the Government itself.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 25, 2010)

Alan, I wish to say publicly that I think keeping this thread open is extremely counterproductive.



Jack Boudreaux said:


> Who is doing the destruction? Employees or passengers? A small TV in the roomettes would be nice. Why are they not being prosecuted? Destruction of government property is a biggie. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01666.htm


&



sunchaser said:


> Are you sure that the government does not own Amtrak? I just did a search on google & ask, & there are plenty of answers saying yes they do. Bottom line on the articles I read, NRPC owns Amtrak, NRPC is owned by the government. Either all or part of the Amtrak stock is owned by the government. Funding comes from Congress (meaning the taxpayer, since Congress is not a business & they get their funding from us), & the farebox, meaning the riders, again that it us.
> 
> Edit: changed from NARP to NRPC BIG BOO BOO!!


To answer you all, Amtrak is not a government agency, effectively. Apple Computer, Inc. is a corporation owned by a great many people and institutions, including myself. Amtrak is the trade name of the National Railroad Passenger Corporation (NRPC). There are two classes of NRPC shares. There is a voting block, and a non-voting block. The non-voting block is controlled by the successors of the railroads that bought into Amtrak so as to be relieved of their common-carrier passenger burden taken on when they got federal funding and easements.

The voting block of shares is owned by the United States government. Some specific department, I don't remember which. They own them with the same privileges most voting shareholders have when they own a company. Such as the right to appoint board members. Since the department is controlled by the executive branch, the person who appoints that board is the President. Naturally, all presidential appointments must be approved by Congress. That is the extent of Congress's direct control over Amtrak, however...

Where Congress gets control over Amtrak is indirectly, through control of its purse strings. No Congressional law has ever directly forced Amtrak to do anything. Instead, they have required Amtrak to do something by making that change a requirement of maintaining funding.

Aside from appointment of board members, Amtrak could thumb their nose at Congress if they became self-funded or funded via external sources.

That is how they are different than a federal agency. They are under Congress's control through their need for Congress's help, not by chain-of-command.


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## AlanB (Jun 25, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The voting block of shares is owned by the United States government. Some specific department, I don't remember which.


The DOT holds the shares in trust for Congress and the citizens of the US.


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## Trogdor (Jun 25, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The voting block of shares is owned by the United States government. Some specific department, I don't remember which.


Department of Transportation. (Seriously, how could you not remember that?)


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## rrdude (Jun 26, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Alan, I wish to say publicly that I think keeping this thread open is extremely counterproductive.


Alan, I wish to say VERY PUBLICLY, that unless insults are slung personally, and repeatedly, *DO NOT CLOSE THIS THREAD!* Don't like it, don't read it.

It is in NO WAY counter-productive. To whom I ask? Those who don't like the tone? Don't read it.

GML is a good wordsmyth, and I admire his intellect, but asking to shut down a thread, no, no way.


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## what are you afraid of? (Jun 26, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Alan, I wish to say publicly that I think keeping this thread open is extremely counterproductive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why close the thread? There are a lot of interesting observations and voices here. They shouldn't be denied a chance to voice their opinions just because you as the chief Amtrakapologist don't like to hear them!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 26, 2010)

I wouldn't close it, but it is counter-rpoductive.

How hard is it to get that your Attendant isn't employed by the Feds.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 26, 2010)

Trogdor said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > The voting block of shares is owned by the United States government. Some specific department, I don't remember which.
> ...


I'm starting a business turning car seats into office chairs and attempting to sell them. Pursuant to this, I have spent the past week in 80-95° heat breaking my back in a U-Pull-It yard in Pennsylvania pulling car seats out of cars. For some reason, I also didn't sleep last night.

I have had moments where I can't remember my own name, let alone the department of government that owns Amtrak.



what are you afraid of? said:


> Why close the thread? There are a lot of interesting observations and voices here. They shouldn't be denied a chance to voice their opinions just because you as the chief Amtrakapologist don't like to hear them!


Because all I am hearing is a bunch of Amtrak bashing by somebody with limited knowledge, and no apparent desire to gain any, being backed up by a few people here who have knowledge and agree with him, or rather think they do.

I am not an Amtrak apologist. Amtrak has numerous problems, most of them imposed by the bounds of reality and extreme underfunding.

This person is sitting here, posting luxury rail cruises that maybe one out of ten thousand people in India can afford (I'd never spend money on them, they cost so much!), and somehow indicating that Amtrak is a failure because they don't live up to those standards. Foolish fool foolishly fooling with folly. It isn't a reasonable observation, or a reasonable point. It's just bughouse.

Somehow, having a sleeping car attendant that is a bit lazy means we have worse rail service than the third world...? Amtrak has lazy attendants. What do you expect? Amtrak attendants are American and most American's are amazingly lazy. Having some of those lazy louse working at Amtrak... is entirely predictable.

Although there are less of them then I would expect.

And then, clearly the fact that this Mr. Jack here had a bad sleeping car attendant on his train is indicative that all of Amtrak, as an entire organization, is dysfunctional and shouldn't exist. Uh?

Let's get Rush Limbaugh to make a post in here. Then we can take Jack's silliness, add it to Limbaugh's silliness, and have a more complete silliness.


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## Dan O (Jun 26, 2010)

O/P sorry that the service was so poor and things like a/c didn't work when they should. I have had limited experience with Amtrak and it has all been good but I can imagine the things the O/P stated happening.

Making wild comparisons (to third world trains in India) and comparing one's experience to trains used for Holocaust victims decreases a person's credibility and reasonableness. My initial reaction to those comparisons is that the holder of those opinions has unreasonable expectations. The most effective way to address the complaints was dismissed. It is very difficult to discern how credible the original complaint really is.

Dan


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## Larry H. (Jun 26, 2010)

GML.

Off line I discussed the break down of the two sides to this thread. There has for some time been a set of people here. Obviously ardent supporters of Amtrak on whom any form of complaint about service or comparison to previous eras of operation are loudly denounced as foolish and unrealistic. Then there are some of us who rode many of the railroads, even though in the fading days, for whom a point of comparison is available. If you may recall the pullman ads of the 40's or 50's most show everyday people, a mother with her children, a elderly couple, the neighbors next door traveling by rail and preferring it to other forms of transportation at the time. You will also see passengers, both coach and pullman who have interesting lounges in which to pass the hours which is a necessary part of rail travel. Another add might show a spiffy diner with decorative touches one might find in a nice restaurant with food to match. This was the way in which rail travel was promoted to the public and was the standard of operation for lines that had any sense of pride of operation. Your contention somehow that any of those expectations are simply those of wildly out of touch americans who are seeking the height of luxury are a bit overboard. They are only the standards that any long distance train worth riding considered necessary for the publics comfort and continued patronage.

I grant you that today is different from yesterday. Much of it is reflected in the attitudes of customers in all forms of transportation. So yes amtrak has a simplified and basic service in comparison to those of old. That basis of service if it were provided with a degree of pride in operation that many railroads had would perhaps be enough to keep the complaints to a minimum. But if you raise fares to the point where the price can reach several thousand one way, your then expected by the public to provide at least a successful and comfortable trip given the equipment and level of service your providing. Most passengers are probably not aware of the back ground of many of the issues plaguing Amtrak. Some are perfectly understandable given the ridiculous management and boards and lack of funding or support by many administrations. However when your accepting peoples hard earned money, and advertising glowing reports of a pleasant trip then your going to be getting some, or even many complaints and the party responsible for that is not the paying public.

We have endlessly pointed out here and in mail to Amtrak the dislike for pre made meals.. (probably a hopeless complaint but often valid).

Toilets that don't flush for most of the trip such as our trip to and from california on both the CZ and the CC. (this one has no excuse. They have had endless complaints and refunds over this for probably 10 years).

Broken and ill repaired doors in sleepers that are most annoying to anyone other than the most ardent fan of rail. (here again a passenger unaware of the issues would be prone to wonder how they were charged such a fare for such conditions.).

Now we have the latest insults, no lounge on some long distance trains, deemed as "non revenue" an unnecessary by those who haven't a clue about the reasons people often travel. Now they are looking at even more limitations to "non revenue" cars. Greatly reduced staffing in diners as well as CCC cars which are not popular but still touted by Amtrak officials as a great success.

Heating an cooling issues which are almost constant issues with the older cars.

These are but a few of the issues found on board for which many riders are not satisfied with their trip.. Instead of degrading the comments, a real supporter of rail transportation that will encourage those new riders to want to come back and tell all their friends about their trip. Do we really want more "never again" senerios. I think Amtrak doesn't want them either, but its been 40 years now and I hate to say, but little has been learned about what the public needs or wants. No private hotel or business or restaurant stays in business unless the offer what the public expects. Amtrak is no different. Please don't encourage their demise.


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## RailFanLNK (Jun 26, 2010)

I don't see why Amtrak couldn't add a hot tub in the lower level coach area where the luggage storage is that hasn't been replaced with the handicapped seating. Maybe a big screen tv and maybe even workshops for passengers on "how to build things on a moving train" etc to keep one entertained! I would literally love it if someone could wave a "fan" in front of my face as they fed me grapes as I sat in the hot tub watching ESPN. Maybe a Broadway musical in the Sightseer Lounge car with the real actors providing the entertainment. I don't understand how things like this can't be done with the budget they operate on!


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## AlanB (Jun 26, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> Now we have the latest insults, no lounge on some long distance trains, deemed as "non revenue" an unnecessary by those who haven't a clue about the reasons people often travel. Now they are looking at even more limitations to "non revenue" cars. Greatly reduced staffing in diners as well as CCC cars which are not popular but still touted by Amtrak officials as a great success.


Larry,

I agree with most of what you said, and that's despite the fact that while old enough to have traveled on trains pre-Amtrak I never had that chance as my parents found it too expensive for us.

And has often been noted, much of what you've mentioned could be helped by having more funding, even though there really is no excuse for so many things being wrong right out of the yard.

But I do have to take issue with the quoted text. While it is true that it was Amtrak that picked what routes to drop the lounge from, that wasn't something that Amtrak wanted to do willingly. That was forced upon them by a Congress that doesn't understand exactly what you said "why people travel on trains." Yes Amtrak may well be continuing to spin those changes to some extent, but that's pretty much what they have to do. After all they aren't going to sell tickets by pretending that the CCC isn't an improvement.

Finally, to Amtrak's credit and thanks to less Congressional interference, Amtrak is rolling back on some of those cuts. There are many more meal options today where some of the food is actually cooked on board once again, as compared to 3 & 4 years ago. They have plans to pull the CCC off the Capitol Limited and return a full diner, the lounge is back on the Eagle and it seems the City of NOL too. Glassware has returned to the Coast Starlight and I'm hearing that plans are underway to do that on a few more runs. And perhaps most important is that Amtrak made a major change to the staffing formula's about 2 years ago IIRC.

While staffing in the diner is still less than it used to be 30 years ago, on sold out trains and trains that are at least 3/4ths full, the staffing levels in the dining cars are up from the earlier lows that we saw when SDS was first introduced.


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## sunchaser (Jun 26, 2010)

I must admit that if I had not found this board before we took our first trip, we would have been very angry & disappointed. Why? Because I had a flawed, more romantic concept of riding the train..I had never been on a train before, had seen them in the movies, & was going by the info on Amtrak's website. Basically I had rose colored glasses on.

The reality is~

Amtrak is not like the old 'high end' more exclusive trains. Examples could be anything from serving regional dishes along the route, to being able to get a haircut & shave onboard.

Given that, I still like Amtrak, but there is room for improvement.

We've all gone over the lists of improvements needed.

Some are very simple, & cheap, some are not.

As to staff, you can go to almost any business & have contact with an employee that is not doing their job, is rude or lazy.

I'm sure that most of us have experienced something that was not 'as advertised' & been let down besides riding Amtrak. How many times has any of us bought a new movie & when we haven't seen it? The trailer shows one thing, then when you watch it, it's not nearly as good as you thought it would be. Too late, you've bought it, opened it, it's yours.


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## Larry H. (Jun 26, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > Now we have the latest insults, no lounge on some long distance trains, deemed as "non revenue" an unnecessary by those who haven't a clue about the reasons people often travel. Now they are looking at even more limitations to "non revenue" cars. Greatly reduced staffing in diners as well as CCC cars which are not popular but still touted by Amtrak officials as a great success.
> ...



Alan,

I agree with everything you have said. I think that all of us who would wish the best for passenger rail understand some of the issues they face. I have no doubt that if they had been able to provide a service that would have encouraged more return passengers over the years that they would be in better shape than they are in. But too we both know all of it is not their fault. Its odd how a non governmental service is so controlled by that very body? What most of us would hope for is that some sense of quality of service and equipment would return. Really that is mostly what all this is about. If I stay at a hotel I was unhappy with, I don't stay their again if there is any choice in the matter. Amtrak is in the position of being the only choice and some times operates like it. Those who defend that stance most likely haven't worked much with the public.

And to RAilfans comments. Its typical of those who somehow think that offering basic services well is somehow expecting the moon. No one has called for luxury service such as the Orient express. Many have called for at least their expectations of a comfortable, enjoyable trip to be met, and sometimes that is not the case. Its kind of like your choice in accommodations on land. If you stay at the Ritz your going to pay for things that the Motel six won't provide. If I am paying several thousand dollars for a rail trip I do not expect to be at motel six. But even at motel six they probably worry about wether the toilets are working and the heat and air are up to snuff.


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## sunchaser (Jun 26, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Larry H. said:
> ...


Larry,

Last october we did a run by train to Glenwood Springs. We booked a fairly nice hotel well in advance. When we arrived, we found out that the room we booked, a king deluxe, had some sort of a problem. We ended up with a double queen deluxe & a discount. Things can happen out of Amtrak's control. But, if it's an ongoing problem, it should be fixed, period. That just makes sense. The toilet problem is a prime example. It can't be very healthy for pax or employees to deal with that all the time.


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## guest (Jun 26, 2010)

RailFanLNK said:


> I don't see why Amtrak couldn't add a hot tub in the lower level coach area where the luggage storage is that hasn't been replaced with the handicapped seating. Maybe a big screen tv and maybe even workshops for passengers on "how to build things on a moving train" etc to keep one entertained! I would literally love it if someone could wave a "fan" in front of my face as they fed me grapes as I sat in the hot tub watching ESPN. Maybe a Broadway musical in the Sightseer Lounge car with the real actors providing the entertainment. I don't understand how things like this can't be done with the budget they operate on!


Not very funny. Try again.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 26, 2010)

> Its typical of those who somehow think that offering basic services well is somehow expecting the moon. No one has called for luxury service such as the Orient express.


I would think that could be debated, at least one person wanted 600-fiber sheets, then proceeded to call another poster a fool for having a bad experience and saying they would give Amtrak another shot... posted pictures of luxury trains and private varnish and asked "if they can do that why can't we" ...


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## Larry H. (Jun 26, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > Its typical of those who somehow think that offering basic services well is somehow expecting the moon. No one has called for luxury service such as the Orient express.
> 
> 
> I would think that could be debated, at least one person wanted 600-fiber sheets, then proceeded to call another poster a fool for having a bad experience and saying they would give Amtrak another shot... posted pictures of luxury trains and private varnish and asked "if they can do that why can't we" ...



In truth any ad of a new 50's streamliners designed for long distance travel would have photos that would run rings around the current design standards. Some of that is no doubt due to lawyers and liability issues that were not so common in that day. However what might appear to look like luxury to many who are accustomed to todays bench seating was the norm and not seen as lavish by any stretch. Even in the early 60's when I traveled from Kansas City in college I used to admire the Santa Fe cars parked at the terminal next too us. A lounge with bookcases for reading and comfortable overstuffed seating with reading lamps on end tables. The union pacific Cites trains had diners in the dome, no one thought it was luxury, they just found it to be appealing to the passenger. The UP did have first class lounges with card rooms, domes, overstuffed sofas for viewing and writing desk with postcards to send notes to friends from On board the train. The empire builder even in coach had wonderful imaginative indian designed themes though out the cars and coffee shop lounge. Hardly people traveling with expensive budgets but still the railroad felt that travel was partly an experience to be enjoyed. That may be where we differ so today. Today its about 'hauling" people with as little "non revenue" help and equipment as possible, and that is part of the large disappointed often expressed here.

When someone writes to say they felt they didn't receive their moneys worth, they shouldn't then be attacked by people who insult them as being out of touch. I have an underlying suspicion that some of this mimics the class warfare so common in todays politics. When you don't agree with someone you degrade them and attempt to make them look like the problem. The problem often is with Amtrak and they should and perhaps have been working to correct it.

I have taken many trips that were enjoyable over all. I too am a hard core fan, and would probably put up with many things the average person would find irritating. But I can't just over look things that should and could be standard operating procedures but are allowed to go unprepared after repeated complaints. People used to say the "buck stops here", but often at amtrak I can't figure out where the buck is?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 26, 2010)

> When someone writes to say they felt they didn't receive their moneys worth, they shouldn't then be attacked by people who insult them as being out of touch.


When they start comparing their personal travels with the Holocaust I think that means they are indeed out of touch.


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## Larry H. (Jun 26, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > When someone writes to say they felt they didn't receive their moneys worth, they shouldn't then be attacked by people who insult them as being out of touch.
> 
> 
> When they start comparing their personal travels with the Holocaust I think that means they are indeed out of touch.


No problem there. I don't recall if that occurred after their complaints were chastised or not without going back to look Either way the comment was out place and inconsiderate at best, but it may have been a knee jerk reaction to the replies they were receiving. One might expect from fans of rail travel a sense of understanding which unfortunately can be lacking here with some.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 26, 2010)

It was after he was told not to expect pampering. Then calling people Amtrak employees, clearly misinformed about who employees these people, and somewhere in there the word 'Holocaust' appeared.

I will write more after he posts yet another repsponse.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 26, 2010)

Actually it was post number 16, thats how fast it went.


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## AlanB (Jun 27, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> I agree with everything you have said. I think that all of us who would wish the best for passenger rail understand some of the issues they face. I have no doubt that if they had been able to provide a service that would have encouraged more return passengers over the years that they would be in better shape than they are in. But too we both know all of it is not their fault. Its odd how a non governmental service is so controlled by that very body? What most of us would hope for is that some sense of quality of service and equipment would return. Really that is mostly what all this is about. If I stay at a hotel I was unhappy with, I don't stay their again if there is any choice in the matter. Amtrak is in the position of being the only choice and some times operates like it. Those who defend that stance most likely haven't worked much with the public.


Agreed. Quality control is partially money based, but also people based. Far too many little things seem to often be let go. Sometimes I think that part of the later issue however is lack of time since the cars are run so hard & often, but still I do believe that they could do better.



Larry H. said:


> If I am paying several thousand dollars for a rail trip I do not expect to be at motel six. But even at motel six they probably worry about wether the toilets are working and the heat and air are up to snuff.


You couldn't have known this, but you couldn't have possibly picked a worse example than Motel 6. Let me start by saying that I'm reasonably sure that what we encountered was an aberration, and not the norm, but still the OTOL gang many years ago did have a toilet issue at a Motel 6. There were many other issues too, like being charged up front for the room, not honoring the rates that were booked online, and that we had inadvertently hit a hotel in Boston that catered to John's and their companions.

But to the crux of the story. One of my good friends a fellow named Mike (aka Albany Mike here) whom many on the forum know and met last October is legally blind. He has some vision, but no peripheral vision. So if your standing directly in front of him, he can see you. Take two steps to the side and he wouldn't know that you're there, unless you said something.

After a day of riding trains in Boston, we all trooped out to this hotel and after the check in fiasco, poor Mike goes to his room, empties his bladder, and flushes the toilet. Immediately Mike is taking a shower.  Something has broken on the toilet and water is flying every where. Poor Mike is down on hand & knees with his limited vision trying to find the shut off valve to the toilet. He succeeds in that, dries off, and calls the front desk for help.

They inform him that they have no one on duty who can deal with that problem at 10:00 PM on a Friday night. Mike then requests being transferred to a new room. They inform him that they have no empty rooms. Personally I think that was a lie, but I'm not 100% sure. Mike asks, "Well what do you expect me to do for a bathroom then?" Their answer to again a man who is legally blind, and they know this, is to step out of his room (this is an outside hall hotel setup, not an inside hall), walk past 10 other rooms, turn left through a central corridor between the two hotel buildings, turn right, walk past another dozen rooms, turn left and walk across a small parking lot to the nearby restaurant that's open 24/7.

Well Mike did avail himself of that option for those times he needed to sit down, but otherwise he took to doing his business in the tub.

In the morning, he went down to the office to talk with them, to ensure that either they would have things fixed or find him another room. We get back on Saturday night, toilet hasn't been fixed, and they still can't move him to another room. (From what we could figure out, the manager didn't want to pay a plumber Saturday rates to fix things.)

Mike is not a happy camper and asks to speak with the manager. No manager is on duty, but Mike is informed that the manager will be on duty in the morning. Mike wakes up early to go down a lodge a formal protest with the manager and is expecting some compensation obviously for his troubles. IIRC, we all had to pay $89 per night for those rooms at that time several years ago. After hearing Mike's story and making only very minimal apologies for the problems, the manager offers to take $10 off his total bill.  Not $10 per night, not one night free, just 10 bucks in total.

Mike is now furious, especially since he's worked in customer service positions for many years, still does in fact today, as he currently works for Marriott Corp as a reservation agent. Mike says "if that's the best you can do, I'm calling corporate." Manager says, "well then you get nothing." and walks away leaving Mike just standing there with his cane.

Now again, I will grant you that this was without a doubt an aberration, but it's just so funny that you used Motel 6 in your example as it's obviously not always that rosy. By the way, ever since that fateful trip, OTOL fest members have sworn off Motel 6's. We've used many others, and over the years with the advent of AGR points, many of us now look specifically for hotels that give AGR points.


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## Dan O (Jun 27, 2010)

Re Motel 6. I went to a family reunion one year and booked Motel 6 w/ credit card. Showed up around 9 PM and they said they didn't have my room but another Motel 6 about 20 miles up the road would help me. Hmm...but everyone is staying at THIS Motel 6. I had to stay at a place that cost more but I did write corporate and got a voucher for a free night to be used within the next year. I think I about broke even on the whole thing as the other motel was more and we stayed there two nights. I still use Motel 6 but it is irksome that a reservation w/ credit card means nothing.

Dan


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 27, 2010)

I really wish people instead of focusing on the "thousands of dollars" paid would instead do cost-benefit analysis, which you should have done before you even booked the room much less after the trip is done and mope about on a platform.

I performed a hypothetical booking for my mother and I from CHI-LAX on July 3rd, on the SWC with a Deluxe Bedroom/Bedroom.

Cost: $1297

Let's break that down, shall we?

The coach fare for two is currently $368, by purchasing the room we save $76 off the top. We also get Dinner-Breakfast-Lunch-Dinner-Breakfast comped, about $70 worth of food, twice. That's another $140, gone.

That means we are paying $1081 for the sleeper service (ie, the privacy, beds, private shower, ect.) $1081 divided by two is $540.50. This is a 43 hour trip, which if you divide that number by 43 you get $12.57.

That's it. Each of us is paying $12.57 per hour to have the all of the amenities of a sleeper. Compare that to the amenities of coach, and well, that's up to you if its worth it. Personally with my mom if its overnight we must get a sleeper, however, I would not pay for the deluxe bedroom in this case or may alter my dates because the above is not worth it IMHO.

Now let's look at the complaints we have here:

No/broken A/C

Broken toilets

Lack of lounges

Uncleanliness

Well if the A/C breaks en route, that is Amtrak's fault. But the OBS can't do much about it-- they aren't mechanics. The yard should have fixed or should fix the problem. They don't always do that, why, possibly because everything is breaking down on these trains and some of them are being held together with bubblegum and rubber bands. The same goes for toilets.

Lounges, well who is going to give Amtrak money for lounges. Amtrak can't make the money itself without raising fares, so it has to go get an investment. Private banks wouldn't give Amtrak a $100 million loan. The government would give it to them, but only if they can turn it into a political football. Like any company, investors want to have a say in what their money is being spent on-- and no Senator would get in front of a camera and say "Amtrak needs more first-class lounges".

You keep calling the CS and the EB "premier" trains. Apart from the PPCs (which are the only cars of their kind which exist, as you know) the EB isn't all that fabulous from the other LD trains. They don't always run with refurbished cars, I was on 28 with a Superliner II that hadn't been touched since the 90's. I then got on the Capitol Limited which had a more recent refurbishment than the cars on 8 that day... brought out of BG in 2006-07. The only thing the EB has is the extra chef in the diner, the plates, and wine tasting.

Plates were just put back on the CS, plans to roll them out nationwide. Most other LD trains have regional menus which help break up the day-to-day Am-food.

Dare we compare today's food service with the stuff we got five years ago?


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2010)

Really first rate summation, sort of says it all! :hi: Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but chronic complainers without solutions= the tea-party/Republicans!


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## Larry H. (Jun 27, 2010)

Round trip, two individual persons, I in my roomette and my mom in her bedroom which she needs due to her age and connivence. Centralia to Chicago, Chicago to San Francisco, San Francisco to Los Angeles, Los angeles to Chicago and home.. $5,500.00 plus a few bucks. That was two summers ago. Not exactly cheap in my opinion but if you want to go sleeper and need a bedroom that is the cost. We did share a bedroom on the Coast Starlight since it was a day run.

I just still cringe when people take what was typical everyday operation for rail roads till amtrak and suddenly its excessive opulence for the rich. No its the way trains were operated in order to build and keep business. A trip taking from two to three days should have decent food, which I agree has improved greatly, the diners haven't. They need a decent lounge and if the train carries a fair load of sleepers and coaches the old plan of providing a separate lounge would be nice. In fact while you all complain about how silly the idea is, Amtrak obviously seems to have at least someone who manages the Coast Starlight that "gets it".. How often do I see reports here of fans of rail travel telling of their experience with the pacific parlor cars? If they weren't a draw no one would bother to want to ride them.. enough said. No one is going to change their minds here I realize that, I guess neither am I. The cost of the lounge equipment is a part of doing business and selling tickets and providing a place for people confined to seats or rooms for days to have someplace to go, its not a foolish unnecessary luxury as seen by some here and in congress. What I am really appalled by is how many train fans seem to agree? That is really puzzling.

Alan,

I should maybe have chosen a different hotel I guess. Frankly I never stayed at a motel six, didn't appeal to me. I have stayed in several lower end hotels that were passable if you didn't mind listening to the excitement in the room next door! I was making a comparison that people base their decisions on. We stayed at the Palace in San Francisco, a little pricy for my blood even for a holiday but you did have surroundings that were commensurate with the price.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 27, 2010)

Nobody said they were a foolish luxury, but they are a luxury. They are not required, they are certainly an enhancement and one could argue they attract revenue, but in the end you still need the capitol up front to finance building them.

Amtrak/rail travel isn't alone in the "spartan" methodologies of today... In the same decade airplanes had nice roomy seats and 1 crew for every 6 pax, now we have cattle. Cars were nicer, and lasted longer. Same goes for anything "they don't build them like they used to".

It isn't Amtrak that's changed its our culture that has changed.


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## Larry H. (Jun 27, 2010)

Well we do agree on something. Times have changed and yet people go out of their way to find things like the Canadian that still offers the now obsolete cars. Its more to me like have we learned anything or not? The curve with Amtrak over the years has been do with less and less if possible. No that hasn't always worked and sometimes they reverse it, but usually they backtrack at some point and it slips a bit more. For the life of me the Tea Party reference goes over my head. I guess if the analogy is of something actually driving business being a good thing instead of being happy with what the government deems is sufficient then perhaps it is. I have never agreed with the republican majority stand on amtrak. We can support interstate highways and air port flight controllers then we should be able to work amtrak into that basic need provision. We don't need government telling us what to eat or how to heat our homes, those are infringements on personal rights. But that is indeed a different group.


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## sunchaser (Jun 27, 2010)

Guest said:


> Really first rate summation, sort of says it all! :hi: Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course but chronic complainers without solutions= the tea-party/Republicans!





Larry H. said:


> Well we do agree on something. Times have changed and yet people go out of their way to find things like the Canadian that still offers the now obsolete cars. Its more to me like have we learned anything or not? The curve with Amtrak over the years has been do with less and less if possible. No that hasn't always worked and sometimes they reverse it, but usually they backtrack at some point and it slips a bit more. For the life of me the Tea Party reference goes over my head. I guess if the analogy is of something actually driving business being a good thing instead of being happy with what the government deems is sufficient then perhaps it is. I have never agreed with the republican majority stand on amtrak. We can support interstate highways and air port flight controllers then we should be able to work amtrak into that basic need provision. We don't need government telling us what to eat or how to heat our homes, those are infringements on personal rights. But that is indeed a different group.


As a republican, I have no problem funding Amtrak..In fact those of you that have seen my posts realize I have made many suggestions that were low cost solutions for some issues with Amtrak. Of course, there are certain things that do require much more money. I would love to see replacement equipment everywhere. I think better quality control would be a good idea for all areas. I think that would be money well spent, instead of tunnels for turtles & salamanders. The Federal Government has a knack for finding ever increasing & sometimes ridiculous ways to spend YOUR money. All I want is for OUR money to be spent wisely, & quit overspending. Yes, I love the Coast Starlight & the PPC. The main reason is the route. We lived for a number of years near Mount Shasta. The PPC is a great amenity. It does help the diner by taking some of the sleeper passengers for meals, & also for the sightseer lounge too. When we ride the Coast Starlight, if we are able we get all of our meals in the PPC, we choose it instead unless there is something better in the diner. I would hate to see them go, it really was something that made our trip better in so many ways. Some are very personal reasons, but not in an elitist or snobbish way.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2010)

Here's the key to reading about service on the various trains: where is the OBS crew based? IN GENERAL, you will find that L.A.-based crews (CS/SL/SWC) are friendly and helpful, to the extent that they can be and with their given supplies - an occasional bad apple, sure, but great for the most part. Also, IN GENERAL, you will find Chicago-based crews (EB/CZ/CONL) to be surly, rude, absent, etc., again with the odd GOOD apple amongst the dross. I'm not just saying this as an L.A.-based OBS member; I'm also saying it based on customer comments, and Amtrak's official CSI scores!


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## Donctor (Jun 30, 2010)

Guest said:


> Here's the key to reading about service on the various trains: where is the OBS crew based? IN GENERAL, you will find that L.A.-based crews (CS/SL/SWC) are friendly and helpful, to the extent that they can be and with their given supplies - an occasional bad apple, sure, but great for the most part. Also, IN GENERAL, you will find Chicago-based crews (EB/CZ/CONL) to be surly, rude, absent, etc., again with the odd GOOD apple amongst the dross. I'm not just saying this as an L.A.-based OBS member; I'm also saying it based on customer comments, and Amtrak's official CSI scores!


I'd be surly if I worked the TE or CONO. The _City_ is a crap train. Thrice weekly, the _Eagle_ has two cars in its set that aren't cleaned between LAX and NOL (via CHI). Not much to be proud of (although, that's no excuse for not making the best of what you're given).


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## rrdude (Jun 30, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > When someone writes to say they felt they didn't receive their moneys worth, they shouldn't then be attacked by people who insult them as being out of touch.
> 
> 
> When they start comparing their personal travels with the Holocaust I think that means they are indeed out of touch.


NO it doesn't, it simply means they are trying to EMPHASIZE their point.........


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 30, 2010)

there's multiple levels of tragedy that you can use as metaphor to emphasize your point, starting from the low end, you can compare it to:

Getting robbed

Getting kicked in the, you know where

Getting shot

Sitting through two hours of Adam Sandler

Eating dinner with Glen Beck

Marriage

Pearl Harbor

The Iraq War

Being drawn and quartered

George W. Bush

The gulf oil spill

The Holocaust

He went right to the top of the chain, theres plenty of other, less idiotic things out there!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 30, 2010)

Haven't we already had our say on the Nazi references? If the OP is done fighting this battle I don't see any reason to continue it in his absence. I'm sure there will be plenty of other disappointment threads yet to come and if any of them jump on the Hitler path we can discuss it then. Deal?


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## SereneFury (Jun 30, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> there's multiple levels of tragedy that you can use as metaphor to emphasize your point, starting from the low end, you can compare it to:
> 
> Getting robbed
> 
> ...


*giggles* I never thought Adam Sandler movies were worse than getting shot. But good list!


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## volkris (Jun 30, 2010)

For whatever it may be worth, every time I've personally had a poor experience with Amtrak--and boy, there have been a few doozies in the past month; my mom has vowed to never ride a train again--the cause has been traced back to Amtrak's organization and employees, not to the rails, trains, infrastructure, or any other capital issues many like to complain are underfunded.

Funny thing is, when I talked about this to some coworkers who were natively from the North East they looked at me like I had just discovered that the the sky was blue: the personal experiences of a diverse group of people from a number of NE states had all lead to the same observation, that Amtrak has serious and continuing problems far removed from issues of rail or federal funding.

Maybe it's for the best to talk about Amtrak and passenger rail service as not so interconnected. Amtrak gives passenger rail a real black eye in this country.


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## AAARGH! (Jun 30, 2010)

rrdude said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > > When someone writes to say they felt they didn't receive their moneys worth, they shouldn't then be attacked by people who insult them as being out of touch.
> ...


The reference to the Holocaust may rediculously emphasize their point, it also demeans what the Holocaust was. That right there is very insensitive and to many, *quite* offensive.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 30, 2010)

volkris said:


> Amtrak gives passenger rail a real black eye in this country.


I really couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Ryan (Jun 30, 2010)

volkris said:


> For whatever it may be worth, every time I've personally had a poor experience with Amtrak--and boy, there have been a few doozies in the past month; my mom has vowed to never ride a train again--the cause has been traced back to Amtrak's organization and employees, not to the rails, trains, infrastructure, or any other capital issues many like to complain are underfunded.
> 
> Funny thing is, when I talked about this to some coworkers who were natively from the North East they looked at me like I had just discovered that the the sky was blue: the personal experiences of a diverse group of people from a number of NE states had all lead to the same observation, that Amtrak has serious and continuing problems far removed from issues of rail or federal funding.
> 
> Maybe it's for the best to talk about Amtrak and passenger rail service as not so interconnected. Amtrak gives passenger rail a real black eye in this country.


Do you think that maybe money and budgets have anything to do with the quality of employee that you get, or their behavior?


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2010)

While a**holes can come from any place seems like the overwhelming majority of the bad and indifferent OBS come from CHI/Back East! Perhaps the folks you talked with were exposed to some of those, there never are as many people telling others how great their train trips and the OBS involved was except on this sight! I'm as aware as the next guy about the problems, just wish everyone would realize that 40 years of starvation and political shennigans havent helped, not to mention the poor management that Amtrak had @ various times1 Things are looking up, the glass is half full, let's not empty it now! :excl: :excl: :excl:


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## LA Resident (Jun 30, 2010)

Amtking said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the key to reading about service on the various trains: where is the OBS crew based? IN GENERAL, you will find that L.A.-based crews (CS/SL/SWC) are friendly and helpful, to the extent that they can be and with their given supplies - an occasional bad apple, sure, but great for the most part. Also, IN GENERAL, you will find Chicago-based crews (EB/CZ/CONL) to be surly, rude, absent, etc., again with the odd GOOD apple amongst the dross. I'm not just saying this as an L.A.-based OBS member; I'm also saying it based on customer comments, and Amtrak's official CSI scores!
> ...


So Amtking says he would be surly as an employee if he worked the TE or the CONO because of the way the trains are/are not cleaned etc.

Well, why should the passenger then be expected to pay full freight if the trip is going to have problems known to employees and management?

How about only charging half the normal fares, and warning the passengers of what's to come? i.e. rude employees, half-hearted service, etc. etc.

And I assume that Amtrak does assign someone to clean these trains, but the employees can't/won't do it because of being overworked, believing they are overworked, etc. etc.

The whole thing goes to show how incredibly warped Amtrak can be. Yet the person who is supposedly at the heart of the entire operation--the passenger, you and me!--is expected to pay the high fares, and ask for a voucher when things invariably don't go right.

Yep, sounds like a great operation to me!!


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## haolerider (Jun 30, 2010)

daxomni said:


> volkris said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak gives passenger rail a real black eye in this country.
> ...


There seems to be an increased trend lately on this board for constant criticism and complaints about Amtrak, service levels, quality of employees, choice of new station design, etc. There is not one single topic that does not result in someone complaining about how stupid Amtrak is and the above comments typify what I would call "tunnel vision" regarding Amtrak. In the current fiscal year, with the exception of October, 2009, every month has seen increases in both ridership and revenue on long distance trains. Gas prices are not as high as they had been when everyone said the increases were due to high gas prices. People are riding the train in record numbers and yet there is a group of members of this board that would somehow find fault with these increases, with comments like: "the numbers are not correct (due to inept management)", "most of the passengers will not come back based on poor service levels", "if Amtrak only went to my city the numbers would be higher" - or any of the seeminly self serving thought processes we see daily.

Get over it folks! Amtrak is not for everyone, but unless there is a massive brain-washing scheme going on in this country, people are deciding to ride the trains and they are happy!

If as much energy were spent on talking with Congress to really increase funding and if the complainers would decide to join rail advocacy groups around the country lobby for better service, increased routes and new equipment, maybe Amtrak would get somewhere. Complaining on this board does nothing but take up space - unless you have a specific and logical suggestion for improvement.

Now I feel better!!


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## Larry H. (Jun 30, 2010)

I hate to even say more, but if complaining to Amtrak were the answer it would be wonderful because god knows they have gotten endless complaints since the start almost. What I would prefer you say is that the employees and management should do everything within their power and working conditions to make every customers experience a good one. Now that I could support.


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## Larry H. (Jun 30, 2010)

Gosh I also should have mentioned the obvious, its logical to think that after 10 years of offering endless refunds the management might have fixed the stinking toilets that don't flush in high altitude since they were the ones who decided to short the system of vacuum pumps when the cars were designed or redesigned however that went. Have they? They have no problem ignoring obvious suggestions. That is the frustrating part.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 30, 2010)

Larry: I understand your frustrastion. I pretty much know all the complaints about Amtrak having experienced them myself! (except the non-working toliets @ altitude!) Let me suggest you write a personal letter to Joe Boardman with your concerns/complaints AND suggestions/ideas of how to correct them! I'm sure you will hear back from his office, lots of people have! This guy is no dummy, and he seems to mean business!  Jim


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## haolerider (Jun 30, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> Gosh I also should have mentioned the obvious, its logical to think that after 10 years of offering endless refunds the management might have fixed the stinking toilets that don't flush in high altitude since they were the ones who decided to short the system of vacuum pumps when the cars were designed or redesigned however that went. Have they? They have no problem ignoring obvious suggestions. That is the frustrating part.


Maybe you can do a bit of research and become a member of the Amtrak Adivsory Board. It is made up of volunteers who ride the trains(at their own expense) and turn in detailed reports. They also attend periodic meetings with senior Amtrak staff and made specific recommendations regarding all aspects of the Amtrak experience. That way you can give your suggestions directly to Amtrak management - face to face. They do not generally monitor boards such as this, since so much of the content is repetitive. Good luck!


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Do you think that maybe money and budgets have anything to do with the quality of employee that you get, or their behavior?


Are you trying to say that OBS is underpaid? Starting salary is around $15/hr and all the work except for the cook is unskilled. That is good money in my book especially when you walk into the snack car and see the attendant sitting on their butt half the time. In my opinion OBS is overpaid and the engineers/conductors (ie skilled workers) are underpaid.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 30, 2010)

haolerider said:


> If the complainers would decide to join rail advocacy groups around the country lobby for better service, increased routes and new equipment, maybe Amtrak would get somewhere.


Are there any advocacy groups that support passenger rail but are _not_ locked into blindly supporting Amtrak? If so I'll be happy to join. As for speaking with Congress, I've written both my Senators and Congressman personally as I assume many of you have as well. One thing that I'm wondering about is why the annual meet-ups don't include some sort of lobbying component. Lots of folks showing up to voice their support for passenger rail could be far more persuasive than just sending a single letter here and there.


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## rrdude (Jun 30, 2010)

Guest said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that maybe money and budgets have anything to do with the quality of employee that you get, or their behavior?
> ...


OK, here's a head-turner: I'm sticking up for the OBS pay rates. Having worked these jobs, they ARE good paying, but not easy. Dealing with the public, when the AC is shot, the toilets don't work, and grandma has been waiting at the station for over two hours, is NOT ez. As has been posted here too many times to count, Amtrak employees, though it may not be obvious, have to at least had to ATTEND safety courses in evacuation, emergency procedures, and a host of other topics. (HACCAP, etc.)

Now, what a GOOD, or GREAT, LSA or other OBS employee will do, how they will act, greet, and deal with the traveling public, is a different story.

The turns are sometimes difficult, especially when trains are tardy. And often times the commissary shorts you on popular items, with NO TIME (after taking inventory) to issue a request for items not stocked. Not apologizing here, just speaking from experience, to the issue of pay and skill set. LSA's are responsible financially for either the inventory, the cash/CC, or the comps. If you are short, it comes out of your pocket.

How the LSA cooks your food in an Amdinette or AmCafe also has more to do with if the LSA "Cares" about giving good customer service, or could "Care Less". We all know how microwaves treat bread items. Yet time and time, and time again, you see LSA's pop the whole damn hot dog, bun and all, same for hamburgers, into the nuke. When they trained me, (yes they had microwaves back then) we were taught to remove the meat, cook it, and then after X seconds, add the bun, cook it (very shortly) re-assemble, and give to PAX.

It's quite possible they have re-packaged the food stuffs, and changed microwaves, but I cringe every time I see the whole hot dog / hamburger go into the nuke.

I digress, but that is the privilege of being the Honorary Board Troll.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 30, 2010)

I've wondered if its regulation (either by the FDA or by Amtrak) that the whole food item be put into the microwave so the LSA doesn't contaminate your (and possibly others) foods. I've never seen an LSA ever so much as touch the food inside the package, much less handle the buns in such a way.

But you know those SAME LSAs who do that also take the time to do some pretty nice touches to their workspace. Many have little candies or mints for free, take-a-penny plates, and flowers on the counter and sometimes tables. They're quite friendly and helpful.


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## volkris (Jun 30, 2010)

haolerider said:


> If as much energy were spent on talking with Congress to really increase funding and if the complainers would decide to join rail advocacy groups around the country lobby for better service, increased routes and new equipment, maybe Amtrak would get somewhere. Complaining on this board does nothing but take up space - unless you have a specific and logical suggestion for improvement.


Specific and logical: if an organization is unable to operate given the constraints it is under, shut down. Otherwise it's just taking up space, wasting money, and pissing off customers that another organization might be able to serve well.

If Amtrak doesn't have the management, expertise, employees, and responsible organization to operate well--and I'm beginning to think it just really doesn't--then let it die and let someone else give it a shot.

Until then we're stuck with this fourth rate failure of a company operating a third rate rail system, giving passenger rail a bad name all the while.

Sometimes the right move is to start over with a blank slate.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 30, 2010)

Guest said:


> While a**holes can come from any place seems like the overwhelming majority of the bad and indifferent OBS come from CHI/Back East! Perhaps the folks you talked with were exposed to some of those, there never are as many people telling others how great their train trips and the OBS involved was except on this sight! I'm as aware as the next guy about the problems, just wish everyone would realize that 40 years of starvation and political shennigans havent helped, not to mention the poor management that Amtrak had @ various times1 Things are looking up, the glass is half full, let's not empty it now! :excl: :excl: :excl:


One key issue I have learned in various businesses I've been in over the years: About 5% of very satisfied customers say something to the company to tell them so, or to tell others so. And about 90% of unsatisfied customers spend their time yelling into your ear. Often so loud that they don't hear the things I offer in an attempt to fix the fact that they are not satisfied.

And then, when they are done making you deaf, but before you can repeat your offers of placation, they hang up, and get a megaphone, and repeat the entire loud complaint to the world at large.



haolerider said:


> If as much energy were spent on talking with Congress to really increase funding and if the complainers would decide to join rail advocacy groups around the country lobby for better service, increased routes and new equipment, maybe Amtrak would get somewhere. Complaining on this board does nothing but take up space - unless you have a specific and logical suggestion for improvement.


Quote for truth.



Guest said:


> Are you trying to say that OBS is underpaid? Starting salary is around $15/hr and all the work except for the cook is unskilled. That is good money in my book especially when you walk into the snack car and see the attendant sitting on their butt half the time. In my opinion OBS is overpaid and the engineers/conductors (ie skilled workers) are underpaid.


Every time I see someone refer to OBS staff as unskilled, my eyes turn red. If it is so unskilled, and if you think that is so much money, you try it, [opening to the alimentary canal].



daxomni said:


> Are there any advocacy groups that support passenger rail but are _not_ locked into blindly supporting Amtrak? If so I'll be happy to join. As for speaking with Congress, I've written both my Senators and Congressman personally as I assume many of you have as well. One thing that I'm wondering about is why the annual meet-ups don't include some sort of lobbying component. Lots of folks showing up to voice their support for passenger rail could be far more persuasive than just sending a single letter here and there.


While the National Association of Railroad Passengers seems to be a sounding board for positive Amtrak feed back (likely reasons include the fact that Amtrak contributes considerable money to NARP in the form of a contract), I would say that they are the exception, not the rule.

I know plenty of people in NJ-ARP who are less than favourable. In fact, just two days ago I shut up a wildly misinformed Al Papp of NJ-ARP, ranting about "Amtrak's equipment plans don't include plans for expansion!" ("Al, did you actually read the report? Allowing for scalability of production and thus possibility of fleet expansion was sort of its main point." :blink: ) In fact, I would say in general, most organized rail advocates fall into one of two categories, summarized as "Everything sucks" and "Realistic Perspective".

Certainly, at the Lackawanna Coalition, most of our members are highly intelligent (in my opinion, anyway) and tend to find many things about Amtrak disagreeable, to the point of mentioning them frequently at meetings. Which is odd, since our main area of interest is NJ Transit (particularly Morris & Essex and Montclair-Boonton lines) not Amtrak, and our really main concern involving Amtrak (ARC tunnels, and the lack of connectivity thereof for Amtrak) does not involve much in the way of Amtrak doing anything wrong.

Personally speaking as an involved rail advocate, we work pretty hard for the benefit of rail transit (and transit in general), and I personally take offense to your implication that all we do is cheer Amtrak on. Amtrak has its problems, which I argue against. Most of them, however, have little to do with the general complaints I hear, and have a lot to do with political nonsense.

My personal experience aboard Amtrak with service has been extremely good. I doubt that I have unbelievably good luck. I have had a few employees that are less than stellar in performance, but quite frankly, I see that a lot more everywhere else(and I'm not limiting myself to transportation). Given that Amtrak is a government run monolith, I consider that a minor miracle.

However, when Amtrak does have problems and issues, I will be the first to give you an earful about it.


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## guest (Jul 1, 2010)

Green-Maned Lion with Rose-Colored glasses?


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 1, 2010)

guest said:


> Green-Maned Lion with Rose-Colored glasses?


Would you care to explain your non-sequitur?


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## had8ley (Jul 6, 2010)

Guest said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think that maybe money and budgets have anything to do with the quality of employee that you get, or their behavior?
> ...


Thank you, think you, thank you...best comment this year !!!


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2010)

Did you forget the disclaimer hadley h34r: : FYI, I am a retired engineer! :lol:


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## Cruiser (Jul 6, 2010)

This is easily the most interesting, informative thread I have come across.

I was born and raised in Chicago and remember the days when the big rail companies started to go bankrupt. Our interstate hwy system caused a major headache by taking over so much of the profitable freight traffic (as a nephew/UPS pilot likes to quip, "Boxes don't *****.") as well as cutting into the passenger service which had been subsidized by it. Amtrak was the only alternative to a complete loss of interstate passenger rail service.

Over the years it has been kept on a starvation diet, as mentioned upthread, simply because rail travel was never a priority for the American people. We had cars, cheap gasoline and for years we had safe, reliable and comfortable air service (until it was deregulated). Today we have a massive oil disaster still unfolding in the Gulf of Mexico and a new public awareness of the need to end our addiction to oil. Air travel has constantly been degraded in the rush for positive quarterly results to impress Wall Street and increase stock prices.

But we also have a VP who commuted on Amtrak for years. We have an administration that thinks investing in our infrastructure, including rail service, is a good thing. And thanks to the survival of Amtrak over the years, we have a foundation on which to build. There is reason to be optimistic about its future.

That said, I am much better prepared for our first LD trip on the CZ than I was before I read about the experiences the OP had. I am hopeful that we won't encounter any of the problems he had, but it helps to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. My expectations have definitely been lowered.

BTW, what does IIRC mean? And are there really no ice machines on board? Don't they need ice for mixed drinks?


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## rrdude (Jul 6, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> This is easily the most interesting, informative thread I have come across.
> 
> I was born and raised in Chicago and remember the days when the big rail companies started to go bankrupt. Our interstate hwy system caused a major headache by taking over so much of the profitable freight traffic (as a nephew/UPS pilot likes to quip, "Boxes don't *****.") as well as cutting into the passenger service which had been subsidized by it. Amtrak was the only alternative to a complete loss of interstate passenger rail service.
> 
> ...


*I*f *I* *R*emember *C*orrectly........No Ice Machines, Bagged Ice picked up enroute.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 6, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> Today we have a massive oil disaster still unfolding in the Gulf of Mexico and a new public awareness of the need to end our addiction to oil.


From what I understand polls continue to show that most Americans still want _more_ offshore drilling not less, including deep water drilling. The remaining moratoriums are being successfully quashed in front of judges who own stock in the companies they're ruling on. The more you read the more you realize that the supposed green revolution is all talk and no action. Oil use won't end until it's all gone. And I mean _every last drop_, tar sands and all. This administration may pay lip service to public transportation, but so far as I've seen they've done very little that can't be reversed by the next administration. If they were making serious moves like China is then I'd be far more optimistic. Unfortunately we can't have better infrastructure _and_ an endless war. So we chose endless war and China chose infrastructure. Who do you think will end up on top at the end?


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## Cruiser (Jul 6, 2010)

daxomni said:


> Cruiser said:
> 
> 
> > Today we have a massive oil disaster still unfolding in the Gulf of Mexico and a new public awareness of the need to end our addiction to oil.
> ...



Personally, that is a no brainer. But then, I live in a Marine Corps town and can see first hand how devastating these endless wars really are. Infrastructure will always be my first choice, not only because it provides employment, but because it creates facilities that can be enjoyed by future generations, unlike endless wars.

As for the public opinion of off shore drilling, the latest Pew report shows a swing away from it down to 44% in favor in June as opposed to 63% in February. http://pewresearch.o...-to-citizenship I do think that as more oil is deposited on Gulf beaches, that position will harden as it did in California after the Santa Barbara oil disaster which was much smaller.

What we do about it is something else again.

(I'm still trying to get over no ice machines on board. At least I can hold two diametrically opposing ideas in my head at the same time!)


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## haolerider (Jul 6, 2010)

Cruiser said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > Cruiser said:
> ...


 If you are traveling in a sleeper, you will have access to ice from your sleeping car attendant. There are strict FDA rules regarding ice and there is basically no space on the train for an ice machine. Enjoy your trip.


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## AlanB (Jul 6, 2010)

Even if there were a way to fit an ice machine into a train car, it would probably produce some very interestingly shaped ice cubes thanks to all the rocking & rolling train cars do; if it managed to produce any ice at all since the water would probably just splash all over the inside before freezing.


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## Cruiser (Jul 6, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Even if there were a way to fit an ice machine into a train car, it would probably produce some very interestingly shaped ice cubes thanks to all the rocking & rolling train cars do; if it managed to produce any ice at all since the water would probably just splash all over the inside before freezing.


Good point.

We spent 12 years traveling full time in a motor home with an ice maker. I simply forgot that we only turned it on when we were parked and plugged in.


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## RTOlson (Jul 6, 2010)

Ah, for all the complaining that people do about the Cross Country Cafe cars, they have at least one advantage -- they have ice-making machines. I haven't seen them in action, but it sounds like a nice feature.


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