# what happened tp the Empire builder



## guest (Jan 2, 2010)

Last night's eastbound Empire Builder arrived 1 hour late to Minot, ND, but did not depart Minot until 8 hours late. What happened?


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## Dirk (Jan 2, 2010)

guest said:


> Last night's eastbound Empire Builder arrived 1 hour late to Minot, ND, but did not depart Minot until 8 hours late. What happened?


I'm going to assume it had something to do with the extreme cold last night. The air temperature (without wind) was over 30 below zero in many places along its route. I know the EB has had issues in the past when it gets that incredibly cold.

It's warmed up to a whole 0 degrees now in Minot...


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## PRR 60 (Jan 2, 2010)

Reported to be a problem with the power. The P42 fleet is not behaving well in cold weather this year.

The train, which arrived last night (1/1) at about 11pm, is still in Minot as this is written. Ouch.


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## DET63 (Jan 2, 2010)

> The P42 fleet is not behaving well in cold weather this year.


How have P42s performed in the past in cold weather? How about other Amtrak (or other passenger rail) locomotives, such as the F40PH or F59PH?


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## Neil_M (Jan 2, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> Reported to be a problem with the power. The P42 fleet is not behaving well in cold weather this year.
> The train, which arrived last night (1/1) at about 11pm, is still in Minot as this is written. Ouch.


Shown as departing Minot 17 hours and 48 minutes late. The sooner you lot let the Swiss run your railways the better!


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## acelafan (Jan 2, 2010)

Neil_M said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Reported to be a problem with the power. The P42 fleet is not behaving well in cold weather this year.
> ...


...or Congress decides to properly fund a railroad. My goodness, some of the equipment that is running on Amtrak is older than the stuff they inherited from the original RRs in the early 1970s. After 35 years, stuff wears out.


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## Tony (Jan 2, 2010)

acelafan said:


> ...or Congress decides to properly fund a railroad.


What did Amtrak do with all that "stimulus" money they were just given? Spend it on all HSR studies?


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## PRR 60 (Jan 2, 2010)

DET63 said:


> ...How have P42s performed in the past in cold weather? How about other Amtrak (or other passenger rail) locomotives, such as the F40PH or F59PH?


It sure seems like the P42's are having a much tougher time of it this year than in the past. I have no idea why. Winter tends to be cold, so the temperature alone would not seem to the the problem.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 2, 2010)

acelafan said:


> ...or Congress decides to properly fund a railroad. My goodness, some of the equipment that is running on Amtrak is older than the stuff they inherited from the original RRs in the early 1970s. After 35 years, stuff wears out.


Except that the equipment with the problems is not that old. The P42's are not nearly as old as the F40's were when they were retired. Funding cannot be blamed for all, or even most of Amtrak's ills.


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## curious (Jan 2, 2010)

What do they do with passengers if a train sits in a station for 16 hours? Is there food available? Wouldn't this be the equivalent of an airplane on the tarmac for four hours and the passengers unable to get off? Did Amtrak at least let passengers go into the station? I can't imagine how dirty the train must be at this point!

The point perhaps is that you should avoid all travel when its below zero, no matter by train, plane or car.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 2, 2010)

I heard Fargo hit record lows, -35 degrees... I can't imagine Minot was much better.

Generally passengers are not allowed in to the station (if they are even at the station) because stations like Minot can't handle 400 people walking in at once. Maybe a couple dozen, not a full manifest of pax. It is also for their own safety. I remember last year about a guy who "jumped ship" and walked in to waist-high snow drifts... had something happened to him, wonder who gets sued? I think its law too-- the Conductors are responsible for having an accurate manifest. If some people wander off, find other transportation, or stay in hotels the Conductors would have to make a note of that. In addition they can't have them walking across the tracks or going where they shouldn't be... you can't expect a crew of two Conductors, and about a half-dozen OBS to control between 200-400 people unless they are in the train and not allowed to leave.

Food is available as long as one of the two engines can supply HEP (head-end power). This means they can have lights, toilets, heat, water (until supplies are exhausted), as well as air conditioning and microwaves/freezers for food. In addition all trains carry emergency rations of food and water in worst-case scenarios. I have also heard stories of very delayed trains comping any purchase in the café and burning through those supplies.


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## Guest_George Harris_* (Jan 2, 2010)

Neil_M said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Reported to be a problem with the power. The P42 fleet is not behaving well in cold weather this year.
> ...


Switzerland is so different from North Dakota it might as well be on another planet. Come to think of it, isn't North Dakota bigger in area than Switzerland? I would be very interested to see how they performed after playing for a year with the same deck that has been handed to BNSF and Amtrak. I have a sneaky feeling that it would be unlikley to be better, and could well be much worse, given the distances, available resources, and climate.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 2, 2010)

Poor #8 finally limped out of Minot at 3:30pm MST CST: nearly 18 hours late. Minot is a real station with a waiting room and restrooms, so assuming you are up for a dash from the train to the station in sub-zero weather, you can escape. However, a walk around town might have been a bit uncomfortable. Today's high temperature in Minot was 5 degrees (that's F for our friends from the rest of the world).

Travel always has challenges. Every mode has it's day in the dog house. It's a gamble. That's what makes it fun.

Imagine this scenario. You just finished dinner as you were sitting at Minot. Your room is made-up, and you turn in for the night. You sleep soundly on what you assume is the smoothest rail in the country. You wake up, peak out the window, and what do you see? Minot. Now, that would be funny.

_*** EDIT: I put Minot into the Mountain time zone. Not good._


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## the_traveler (Jan 2, 2010)

curious said:


> What do they do with passengers if a train sits in a station for 16 hours? ... Did Amtrak at least let passengers go into the station?


Even if they did let the passengers go into the station, what would you chose of these 2 choices:


Walk from the train down the platform into the *PACKED* station in -30º weather, or

Stay aboard the train where it is 68-70º!

I myself would chose #2!


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## acelafan (Jan 2, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> acelafan said:
> 
> 
> > ...or Congress decides to properly fund a railroad. My goodness, some of the equipment that is running on Amtrak is older than the stuff they inherited from the original RRs in the early 1970s. After 35 years, stuff wears out.
> ...


Oh sure, Amtrak's ills are mixture of things, but was this particular problem with the locomotive itself? The posts just said "power problems" - that could mean HEP somewhere along the entire train, unless "power" meant locomotive traction issues. Regardless, Amtrak is in need of new equipment.


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## the_traveler (Jan 2, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> Imagine this scenario. You just finished dinner as you were sitting at Minot. Your room is made-up, and you turn in for the night. You sleep soundly on what you assume is the smoothest rail in the country. You wake up, peak out the window, and what do you see? Minot. Now, that would be funny.


Although it wasn't overnight, that almost happened to my about 10 years ago.

I was on the LSL, and due to an engine breakdown, we limped into a freight yard west of Erie, PA about 5 AM. While there, the crew died (exceeded the hours of service law) and they had to bring in a new crew. It was mid afternoon before we got going again. Thus I could have had breakfast and lunch while at the same freight yard! (This was in my cheap, cheap days when I went coach, so I didn't buy lunch.)


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Power could also mean signal and switch power - the train could have been just fine.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Power could also mean signal and switch power - the train could have been just fine.


It was a P42 issue.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Power could also mean signal and switch power - the train could have been just fine.
> ...


Based on?


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## PRR 60 (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


It is based on postings from a Minot resident on another rail discussion site. Living in Minot all you would need is a scanner to know all the gory details.


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > PRR 60 said:
> ...


Care to share a link, since I don't live in Minot?  Sounds interesting.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 2, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Care to share a link, since I don't live in Minot?  Sounds interesting.


Not many details, but here's the link.

Trainorders thread


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## Ryan (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks, I always forget about that one. Never can make up my mind to kick in the money.


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## acelafan (Jan 2, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Care to share a link, since I don't live in Minot?  Sounds interesting.
> ...


Thanks for the link, interesting reading!


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## Guest_Fan_Trains_* (Jan 2, 2010)

if the train was 17 hours late into chicago, did amtrak had bring in representatives from chicago to work with passengers with missed connections?


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 2, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> curious said:
> 
> 
> > What do they do with passengers if a train sits in a station for 16 hours? ... Did Amtrak at least let passengers go into the station?
> ...


unless number 2 means starving to death due to no food and water no HEP and rude as hell crews who think its your fault the train is stranded etc. i would go with number 1 take a cab to either greyhound or a hotel and if i got arrested for jumping ship well at least in jail i get fed.


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## AlanB (Jan 2, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > curious said:
> ...


No Greyhound service in Minot.

And Amtrak has never let a passenger starve to death. Beside, if things got that bad that they couldn't get food to the train, they wouldn't be getting food to the jail either. At least if you're still on Amtrak, you can walk away when the ordeal is over. In jail, you're still there with or without food.


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## AlanB (Jan 2, 2010)

Tony said:


> acelafan said:
> 
> 
> > ...or Congress decides to properly fund a railroad.
> ...


You can see where Amtrak spent/is spending the Stimulus monies here.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 2, 2010)

Guest_Fan_Trains_* said:


> if the train was 17 hours late into chicago, did amtrak had bring in representatives from chicago to work with passengers with missed connections?


The train won't arrive until (current estimate) about 9:18 tomorrow morning.



amtrakwolverine said:


> unless number 2 means starving to death due to no food and water no HEP and rude as hell crews who think its your fault the train is stranded etc. i would go with number 1 take a cab to either greyhound or a hotel and if i got arrested for jumping ship well at least in jail i get fed.


In the many years of travelling I have never met a crew who thought it was the passengers fault they were stuck. I have met many, some less patient then perhaps they should be, who were pissed off at too many passengers thinking it was the crews fault the train was stuck.


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## saxman (Jan 2, 2010)

Looks like its outa Fargo at 19:36 hours late. Well if it makes it to Chicago in the morning, Amtrak won't have to put anyone in hotels.  When I lived in North Dakota and it was 30 below there would often be slow orders. Just like extreme heat that may cause rails to kink, -30 can cause brittle rails. It looks like #8 for the following day (today the 2nd) has reached Minot on time. It may just catch up to the 19 hour late train. I'd love to see a combined consist!


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## Zevzec (Jan 3, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> Imagine this scenario. You just finished dinner as you were sitting at Minot. Your room is made-up, and you turn in for the night. You sleep soundly on what you assume is the smoothest rail in the country. You wake up, peak out the window, and what do you see? Minot. Now, that would be funny.


Even funnier is to think that you can do just about the same thing in San Antonio on the Texas Eagle when there is _not _a delay.


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## diesteldorf (Jan 3, 2010)

I actually thought about taking advantage of this freak occurance to ride #8 to CHI and take #7 back. Still could but probably won't and will opt to watch football instead.

Does anyone have an opinion on how #7 will be handled? If #8 gets into CHI at around 9:00 AM, they will have less than 6 hours to turn the train around to leave as #7 at 2:15.

Last year, I took the Amtrak bus to CHI after #8 was running late, but not this late. The next day, #7 didn't leave CHI until nearly 7:30 PM.

I wonder when #7 will leave CHI 1/3? Maybe Amtrak has another train lined up that is already to go, but I wouldn't count on it.

Any opinions?


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## Amtrak839 (Jan 3, 2010)

diesteldorf said:


> I actually thought about taking advantage of this freak occurance to ride #8 to CHI and take #7 back. Still could but probably won't and will opt to watch football instead.
> Does anyone have an opinion on how #7 will be handled? If #8 gets into CHI at around 9:00 AM, they will have less than 6 hours to turn the train around to leave as #7 at 2:15.
> 
> Last year, I took the Amtrak bus to CHI after #8 was running late, but not this late. The next day, #7 didn't leave CHI until nearly 7:30 PM.
> ...


The SEA yard crew turns around the train 7 consist around in about 6 hours, so 7 wouldn't have to leave CHI too late on 1/3, if late at all, if 8 doesn't lose anymore time.

If 8 does lose more time, because 7 originates in CHI (which, as we all know, is Amtrak's biggest long distance train hub) I think Amtrak could probably patch together a train using standby equipment in the CHI Yards, assuming they need 1 baggage car, 1 trans-dorm, 3 sleepers, 1 diner, 1 lounge, and 5 coaches for 7/27/807. Perhaps substituting a CCC for the diner and/or lounge if necessary, or a standard sleeper for the trans-dorm if a trans-dorm isn't available.


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## Neil_M (Jan 3, 2010)

How did this get resolved then? Locos repaired? Freight locos to the rescue? More P42s galloping over the hill to save the day?


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## Neil_M (Jan 3, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> unless number 2 means starving to death due to no food and water no HEP and rude as hell crews who think its your fault the train is stranded etc. i would go with number 1 take a cab to either greyhound or a hotel and if i got arrested for jumping ship well at least in jail i get fed.


Do you only deal in extremes? How many people have starved to death on a train in the US or elsewhere for that matter? And I mean died from lack of food, rather than being away from the nearest drive thru for more than a hour or so?

18 hours late is a pain, but you ain't going to die so stop gibbering.


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## Neil_M (Jan 3, 2010)

Guest_George Harris_* said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> > PRR 60 said:
> ...


It was a joke, no need for your usual anti European tirade!


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## gaspeamtrak (Jan 3, 2010)

Neil_M said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Reported to be a problem with the power. The P42 fleet is not behaving well in cold weather this year.
> ...




She's now 20 hours and 59 minutes late! Ouch!!! I hope the passengers and crew were at least warm and had a bit of food?

Maybe some Amtrak/BNSF people got hold of a 4 bye 4 pick-up and made a run to Mickey Dee's drive through!? 

Which reminds me what happened to my brother one Christmas!

My brother was coming back from Gaspe, Quebec years ago on the train and was almost 2 and half days late (60 hours late) getting into Montreal.

They had numerous mechanical troubles and crews were being outlawed. The Gaspe run is only 654 miles long!!!

They ran into a freight train derailment in the Matepedia valley with the Ocean stuck ahead of them and snow storm after snow storm hitting them!!!

My brother and some of the pssengers were able to walk to the corner store they were near and get some "junk" food and cases of beer! They sat there for over 24 hours and the store was eventually sold out of everything! Needless to say there was one Happy/RICH store owner. 

Don't be so judgemental of Amtrak...They try/do there best with what the Government gives them to work with...


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## anir dendroica (Jan 3, 2010)

Amtrak839 said:


> The SEA yard crew turns around the train 7 consist around in about 6 hours, so 7 wouldn't have to leave CHI too late on 1/3, if late at all, if 8 doesn't lose anymore time.
> If 8 does lose more time, because 7 originates in CHI (which, as we all know, is Amtrak's biggest long distance train hub) I think Amtrak could probably patch together a train using standby equipment in the CHI Yards, assuming they need 1 baggage car, 1 trans-dorm, 3 sleepers, 1 diner, 1 lounge, and 5 coaches for 7/27/807. Perhaps substituting a CCC for the diner and/or lounge if necessary, or a standard sleeper for the trans-dorm if a trans-dorm isn't available.


I see that the following #8 (1) is now listed as a Service Disruption despite departing St. Cloud, MN only 2 1/2 hours late. My guess is that they will be turning this train in MSP to become today's #7 and busing passengers to/from Chicago. A major pain given the number of people riding MSP-CHI, but perhaps easier than canceling today's #7 entirely.

If this is indeed what is happening, it will give the folks in Chicago a day to clean the day-late train and also to fix whatever may have failed in the frigid temperatures.

Mark


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## saxman (Jan 3, 2010)

anir dendroica said:


> I see that the following #8 (1) is now listed as a Service Disruption despite departing St. Cloud, MN only 2 1/2 hours late. My guess is that they will be turning this train in MSP to become today's #7 and busing passengers to/from Chicago. A major pain given the number of people riding MSP-CHI, but perhaps easier than canceling today's #7 entirely.
> If this is indeed what is happening, it will give the folks in Chicago a day to clean the day-late train and also to fix whatever may have failed in the frigid temperatures.
> 
> Mark


Looks like you're right. Looks like yesterdays #8 is just about to arrive into Chicago 21 hours late! I guess thats not enough time to turn it so they'll just end the next #8 in MSP and turn it around for tonight's departure at 11 PM. Guess that sucks for the people departing Chicago today.


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## sweet tea (Jan 3, 2010)

and here i thought the time i got stuck on a siding in minot for 4 hours was bad! (some mechanical problem delayed the train our replacement crew was to have come from, meaning they still needed 4 hours of rest before working our train.) for the record, we were pretty steamed that we had to stay on board the whole time (i shall never forget the sign we stared at the whole time, decrying the "champagne government" of minot), when we might have enjoyed a walk around town. it was summer, though.

(on our return trip, we spent 8 hours in the high school gymnasium of portage, wisconsin, thanks to a bomb threat from the sociopath we'd shared a table with in the diner the previous night.)


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## guest (Jan 3, 2010)

I was supposed to be on train 27 out of Chicago tomorrow afternoon, but got an automated call this afternoon saying that the train was cancelled due to weather. No alternate transportation provided.

Unfortunately, finding a flight on short notice is often more expensive than a sleeper on Amtrak. Grr....


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## Ispolkom (Jan 3, 2010)

sweet tea said:


> (i shall never forget the sign we stared at the whole time, decrying the "champagne government" of minot)


It so pains me that your strongest memory of my home town is Earl Allen's darn sign. There are a lot nicer parts of Minot to see in the summer. The sign is practically historical, though, since I can remember seeing it looking exactly the same in the 1960s.


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## anir dendroica (Jan 3, 2010)

guest said:


> I was supposed to be on train 27 out of Chicago tomorrow afternoon, but got an automated call this afternoon saying that the train was cancelled due to weather. No alternate transportation provided.
> Unfortunately, finding a flight on short notice is often more expensive than a sleeper on Amtrak. Grr....


So they're canceling TOMORROW's #7? I see that today's #7 departed only 1:26 late from Chicago, implying either a three-hour turnaround for the late train or a cobbled-together consist running as far as MSP. The #8 that would become tomorrow's #7 seems to have been annulled at MSP.

Does anyone know exactly what is scheduled in terms of consist routing and canceled trains? Inquiring minds (and would-be passengers) want to know...


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## mucomix (Jan 3, 2010)

I have three train “Stoppages” One was a foreseen stop for track work at Grand Junction CO this fall. We got off walked around town a bit and took a shower on a still train.

On the way back the CZ 10/09 was re routed through Wyoming due to a derail in Glenwood CO. There is nothing to do in Green river Wyoming but no one held us on the train.

12/09 We had a dead crew at La Junta CO on the SWC about a 90min stoppage we had just finished supper the GPS showed a stop and rob about 3/10th mile from the train. I was out of Private Stock. I thought I might restock. I got off the train looked down main drag and saw the store and though better of it. Just too dam cold not worth it. But no Amtrak staff tried to stop me. Just the usual the next train will be by in about 24hr don't go to far by the conductor.


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## iandees (Jan 3, 2010)

I had a ticket to board the 8 train today in St. Paul -- after it arrived in 2 hours late, we sat around for another 1.5 hrs and they finally called to let us know that it was canceled due to electrical problems. No power to the passenger cars. I guess they were going to bring in buses for everyone, but I bugged out before then and will try again tomorrow morning.


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## Montanan (Jan 3, 2010)

Reportedly, the entire westbound run of the January 4 departure from Chicago has been cancelled, as has the entire eastbound run departing a couple days later ...


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## Montanan (Jan 3, 2010)

Finding a bit more detail from the Empire Builder list at Yahoo: the January 4 westbound run and January 6 eastbound run are completely annulled, with no alternate transportation. They're using the time to try to gather an adequate car supply together, following issues with two Empire Builder trainsets, and problems with the CZ equipment rotation.

Presumably the CZ problem is that dining car fire in California that's been reported elsewhere.


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## iandees (Jan 3, 2010)

Montanan said:


> Finding a bit more detail from the Empire Builder list at Yahoo: the January 4 westbound run and January 6 eastbound run are completely annulled, with no alternate transportation. They're using the time to try to gather an adequate car supply together, following issues with two Empire Builder trainsets, and problems with the CZ equipment rotation.


Interesting! I bet my 8 tomorrow will be pulling the trainsets from today's 8 back to Chicago...


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## EB_OBS (Jan 3, 2010)

Tains 8/28 and 7/27 departing Jan 4th are annulled. It's also,at this time, likely that the departures on the 5th may be annulled as well.


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## JoanieBlon (Jan 4, 2010)

Well ~ After reading through this thread and learning of the extended delays on the Empire Builder, I am certainly glad (and fortunate!) that my husband and I were on the west bound train that left Chicago on Wednesday, December 30th!! 

We actually arrived into Seattle about 1/2 hour ahead of schedule on January 1st. From what I could tell, we were pretty much on schedule for the entire trip inspite of some pretty cold temperatures ~ it was 1F in Minot during daytime hours ~ with periodically heavy snow and gusty winds along the route.

All in all we had a grand time and would like to do the trip again during the summertime when daylight hours are extended, so we can enjoy more of the scenery along the way. It was totally dark by 5pm and the sun (when we saw it) didn't fully rise until after 8am! We missed the spectacular scenery of Glacier National Park altogether.... :unsure: I must say that the full moon we had enroute shining down on the freshly fallen snow was truly beautiful.

So as not to start another thread about our "adventures" on our trip ~ we did have some good experiences, as well as some negative ones.

Bad:

1. As we went down the platform looking for our sleeping car, we showed our tickets to the first sleeping car attendent whom we came upon and he told us we were in his car and to go up to Bedroom B there. Once we got our coats in the closet and our bags tucked away, we decided to take a brief stroll towards the dining car. When we came back, there was ANOTHER person in our bedroom! Hmmmmm... <_< I got off the train with our tickets and asked another sleeping car attendent I found if we were supposed to be in the car we were told to get into. Nope! Turns out that we were in the PORTLAND section of the train and we were going to Seattle! At this point, we had to gather up all our belongings, get our bags out of the downstairs storage area, and make a mad dash to the correct car! :angry: You would "ASSUME" that the sleeping car attendents would know the number of the car that they're assigned to!  They're supposed to helping us!!! AND ~ I assumed (wrongly, obviously!) that employees would be providing correct information.

2. We were not notified by our sleeping car attendent or our server on our final evening meal that there would be NO breakfast service after 7am on our final morning leg into Seattle. When I asked the sleeping car attendent about why we weren't told of this, he replied that an announcement had been made sometime after he turned our beds down (and we had retired for the night). :angry: He also told us that the crew isn't allowed to make public announcements before 7am....BUT they didn't seem to have any problems with walking through the sleeping car using walkie-talkies! We had been awake for quite awhile before 7am, but had refrained from showering early out of courtesy to our next door neighbors. When we showed up in the dining car at about 7:10am ~ where there were still quite a few diners ~ we were told that we could have yogurt and a muffin, but all the other food gad been "thrown away." I told the lead dining car attendent, Gina, that my husband is a diabetic and both those items are sugar based. They finally scrounged up a couple of oranges, a couple of biscuits (still not good for carbs) and some milk. I got the impression that we were causing an unwelcome "problem" for them by not accepting the yogurt and muffins. Neither of us drink coffee either ~ which was offered ~ due to heart palpitation issues. Our "breakfast snack" tided us over until we got to Seattle, but my husband who is 6'4" and has a good appetite was NOT a happy camper..... he was all set for eggs and sausage, which would have been far better for him than the carbs in the biscuit and orange. I WILL be writing a letter to Amtrak complaining about this situation. The servers should notify EACH TABLE seating at the evening meal on the night before the train splits in Spokane, that they MUST be in the dining car before 7am to be served breakfast on the last day out. Seems like a VERY simple thing to do, but it wasn't.

3. Both my husband and I thought that the quality of the food was not as good as we had on our recent trip on the California Zehphr in late September ~ although the menus were almost identical. The "cooked to order" steak was pretty good, although I thought that the "flat iron steak" (pot roast style actually) that we had on the Zephyr was just as tasty. The "angus steak burgers" weren't nearly as tasty and the breakfasts were just sort of "blah" on the Empire Builder.

4. One of the servers made several very public comments about how he had a TERRIBLE COLD, which made us feel rather uncomfortable that he was serving us! He also made a comment that due to the dish washer not showing up for the run, we had to be served on plastic for all the meals on the entire trip.

Good:

1. We REALLY enjoyed the wine and cheese tasting that was held the second day out. We never were treated to any special events during our trip on the California Zephyr.

2. We liked the complementary splits of champagne that were provided as we left Chicago!  We didn't get this on the Zephyr either.....

QUESTION??? Why don't long hauls ~ 2 days or more ~ have identical perks for sleeping car passengers??

3. The temperatures on the train were quite comfortable in spite of the very cold weather we encountered along the route.


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## Larry H. (Jan 4, 2010)

I am still puzzled why Amtrak, knowing that many elderly passengers have both cholesterol and diabetic issues make not even the slightest attempt to provide some choices that would fit that population, which no doubt is the biggest users of the dinner or sleeping cars. You can get sugar free syrup in any restaurant now days as well as a choice of whole grain, (not just wheat colored) breads to help keep carbs lowered. A sugar free desert, even if it was only jello or instant sugar free pudding would be welcome. There is almost a complete lack of consideration for the passengers in the menus when it comes to health. Gee I thought that was the new push, eating healthy to keep health care cost down, maybe I should write the white house?


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2010)

What was Amtrak's reply when you've complained to them about these issues?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 4, 2010)

> 2. We liked the complementary splits of champagne that were provided as we left Chicago! We didn't get this on the Zephyr either.....
> QUESTION??? Why don't long hauls ~ 2 days or more ~ have identical perks for sleeping car passengers??
> 
> 3. The temperatures on the train were quite comfortable in spite of the very cold weather we encountered along the route.


Marketing.

The Empire Builder and Coast Starlight have marketing directors who like to play to the elegance and err on the side of flamboyant when it comes to how their train is run. They're job is to see if they can fill a train and with superior service they often do. The Zephyr sells itself with it being the most scenic of all of the Western trains (debatable, yes). Ergo the Zephyr doesn't need cheap champagne splits to make people upgrade to the sleepers if the train as a whole is full.

Don't misread the above-- I'm all for all LD trains having similar service. I just don't think its worth the time, money, and effort until you can get another sleeper on the Zephyr. (The EB runs with three, as often does the CS, but the CZ usually only sports two.)


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## JoanieBlon (Jan 4, 2010)

Larry H. said:


> I am still puzzled why Amtrak, knowing that many *elderly* passengers *have both cholesterol and diabetic issues make not even the slightest attempt to provide some choices that would fit that population*, which no doubt is the biggest users of the dinner or sleeping cars. You can get sugar free syrup in any restaurant now days as well as a choice of whole grain, (not just wheat colored) breads to help keep carbs lowered. A sugar free desert, even if it was only jello or instant sugar free pudding would be welcome. There is almost a complete lack of consideration for the passengers in the menus when it comes to health. Gee I thought that was the new push, eating healthy to keep health care cost down, maybe I should write the white house?


It's NOT just the "ELDERLY" who need some correct choices! Unfortunately, Type B Diabetes is becoming more and more prevalent in teenagers these days.....and this was a condition that in years past normally didn't rear its ugly head until middle age or later. Too many kids and folks in general pigging out on sugar laden foods and drinks, as well as high carb snacks and pizzas. And...high cholesterol certainly isn't just found in the elderly. There are plenty of folks in their 30s and 40s with clogged arteries.
There was a very good selection of desserts offered on the Empire Builder ~ cheesecake with Oregon blueberry compote, chocolate peanut butter pie, apple pie with a crisp topping, sorbet, and vanilla and chocolate Hagen Daz ice cream ~ BUT...not one single sugar free dessert choice unless you wanted to make do with an orange. I felt bad for my husband, as well as others who must restrict their sugar/carb intake. :angry: Taking a train trip and having "special" meals and service in the dining car should include some "treats...." for everybody.

Amtrak has at least one selection available for vegetarians at each meal .....why not some healthy low/no sugar choices for diabetics as well? Both my husband and I do make an attempt to keep as healthy as possible by making good eating choices and exercising. So far, my husband has been able to control his diabetes with diet ~ but it's a little difficult when choices aren't offered ~ and when they close the kitchen down without adequate notice .... <_<


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 4, 2010)

amtrak does offer special foods but you have to call ahead of time and let them know.


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## AlanB (Jan 4, 2010)

The Coast Starlight had for many years been sort of the cream of the crop in terms of long distance trains, in large part thanks to the Pacific Parlour Cars and an ambitious manager. Its service started to fall off, cuts happened, the cars were neglected and such. Around the time that started happening, David Gunn was the President of Amtrak. He saw an opportunity with the newly refurbished Superliner I sleeping cars to show everyone that cutting services isn't always the best way to save money. He picked the Empire Builder as the route to prove that. Not quite sure just what his reasons were, but nonetheless his vision has been proved.

Outside of the Auto Train, the EB has the best cost recovery of any long distance train with sleepers. The Palmetto does better than the EB, but it has no sleepers or a dining car. Unfortunately David Gunn didn't last for too long as President of Amtrak. Even as the Builder was continuing to excel, the Coast Starlight continued to falter and get worse, in part also because of UP failing to run the train on time.

Once Amtrak got UP back on the ball, they decided to start trying to bring the CS back up to its former glory. The PPC's were all given a major rebuilding making them far more reliable; the SDS idea was rolled back first on the CS and now on most trains. And once again it's starting to pay dividends from what I can see. Ridership on the CS is going back up. People are happier with that train in general.

Now we can only hope that management and Congress takes notice of what can happen if you pump just a bit of money back into things, instead of always cutting.


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## rail_rider (Jan 4, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > I am still puzzled why Amtrak, knowing that many *elderly* passengers *have both cholesterol and diabetic issues make not even the slightest attempt to provide some choices that would fit that population*, which no doubt is the biggest users of the dinner or sleeping cars. You can get sugar free syrup in any restaurant now days as well as a choice of whole grain, (not just wheat colored) breads to help keep carbs lowered. A sugar free desert, even if it was only jello or instant sugar free pudding would be welcome. There is almost a complete lack of consideration for the passengers in the menus when it comes to health. Gee I thought that was the new push, eating healthy to keep health care cost down, maybe I should write the white house?
> ...


Couldn't agree with you more. As a dibetic I've often found myself trying to limit my sugar intake while riding Amtrak. If your on a train 3,4 or even 5 nights it's hard to keep eating salads or all meat dishes with no sides. Often I've found myself ordering desert and only eating one or two bites just to get a taste. I always travel with a stash of dibetic type food for snacks or emergenices in case a train gets disabled and food runs low onboard. Amtrak needs to take dibetics into consideration in menu planning.


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## Ryan (Jan 4, 2010)

rail_rider said:


> Couldn't agree with you more. As a dibetic I've often found myself trying to limit my sugar intake while riding Amtrak. If your on a train 3,4 or even 5 nights it's hard to keep eating salads or all meat dishes with no sides. Often I've found myself ordering desert and only eating one or two bites just to get a taste. I always travel with a stash of dibetic type food for snacks or emergenices in case a train gets disabled and food runs low onboard. Amtrak needs to take dibetics into consideration in menu planning.





Ryan said:


> What was Amtrak's reply when you've complained to them about these issues?


What about when you notified them of your special dietary needs?
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...d=1241245669559


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## the_traveler (Jan 4, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> amtrak does offer special foods but you have to call ahead of time and let them know.


That is true, but what if someone doesn't want a special _____ meal, or did not call up early to "request" it? How about if they just want Jello for desert or sugar-free syrup for their french toast? :huh:

I'm not saying that you specifically need it, but what if *YOU* just wanted one of those items? :huh: Would you call Amtrak a day or 2 before your trip and order a whole ____ meal just so you can get 1 item? :huh: I'm not sure how Amtrak special meals are done, but back in the dark ages when I flew  , if you ordered a special meal, it included the entire tray. You could not just take 1 thing out, and then get the "regular" meal.


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## Montanan (Jan 4, 2010)

I think if someone has medical or religious reasons for needing specific foods, the need to take the responsibility to call Amtrak and inform them of that fact ... just as they would if they were taking an overseas airline flight.

I've been to plenty of immobile restaurants with menus that are way less friendly to vegetarians and diabetics than Amtrak is, and they don't have the operational and financial constraints that Amtrak does. And if you start adding up all the possible dietary restrictions that people could have (things like allergies and such), the list would be overwhelming ... and there's just no way that Amtrak (or any food service facility) could preemptively anticipate them all.

Diabetes is definitely very common in America -- it runs in my family, in fact -- but even if Amtrak tried to do a "diabetic" menu it would be a major challenge, because not everyone uses the same diet for diabetes management. So it makes sense for travelers to take responsibility for their own dietary health, both on Amtrak and elsewhere.


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## EB_OBS (Jan 4, 2010)

Amtrak added sugar-free syrup to it's menu back in June. It's supposed to be on automatic par for LD trains serving french toast or pancakes. I can't guarantee it's offered automatically onboard but it should be available upon request.


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## EB_OBS (Jan 4, 2010)

As mentioned in another post our dining car kitchens and storage space is finite and during peak season especially is sufficiently lacking enough space.

The menu selections are available at the website. This should be checked before traveling. Amtrak can accommodate most dietary restrictions and requirements if you call and let reservations know. The system isn't perfect, sometimes the communication fails. The options aren't extensive either but they suffice for most passengers for one or two days travel.

I'm know many Amtrak chefs would love to have a lot more options and menu selections on-board. Unfortunately storage space, and even staffing on some trains, limits each meal to only 5 or 6 entree selections.

Believe me the on-board crews are compassionate and considerate of dietary needs. The OBS crews have the same dietary restrictions by percentage as the general population yet are on-board, away from home for 5-8 days depending upon which train they work. Amtrak prohibits any employee from bringing their own food into diner cars or even using storage or cooking equipment to bring it with you. They have to eat from the same menu passengers do for entire careers. It's a common complaint still unresolved by Amtrak.

FWIW, for those travelers who frequently ride trains and/or ride several different routes, Amtrak has returned regional menu selections to some trains and there are varied menu selections depending upon direction of travel on the same train. The menu is also being rotated, evaluated and refreshed every June and October for the last two years, which should continue into the future. So entree variety is better than it has been in a while


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## EB_OBS (Jan 4, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> Well ~ After reading through this thread and learning of the extended delays on the Empire Builder, I am certainly glad (and fortunate!) that my husband and I were on the west bound train that left Chicago on Wednesday, December 30th!!
> We actually arrived into Seattle about 1/2 hour ahead of schedule on January 1st. From what I could tell, we were pretty much on schedule for the entire trip inspite of some pretty cold temperatures ~ it was 1F in Minot during daytime hours ~ with periodically heavy snow and gusty winds along the route.
> 
> All in all we had a grand time and would like to do the trip again during the summertime when daylight hours are extended, so we can enjoy more of the scenery along the way. It was totally dark by 5pm and the sun (when we saw it) didn't fully rise until after 8am! We missed the spectacular scenery of Glacier National Park altogether.... :unsure: I must say that the full moon we had enroute shining down on the freshly fallen snow was truly beautiful.
> ...


I'm glad to hear that overall your trip went well. I too wish that Glacier Park's scenery was more visible during winter season. It's truly beautiful year round.

First the Bad:

1. No excuses the attendant obviously wasn't paying attention and may have looked at your tickets but apparently didn't really look at them.

2. There is an announcement made after Whitefish or approximately 9:00 pm to inform all passengers of the breakfast the following morning. Excellent wait staff and train attendants will also do a much better job of making sure the sleeping car passengers know how early and short the breakfast service is that day into Seattle.

3. The EB dining car menu is one of the best on Amtrak. Dietary needs can be accommodated, most of the time, if you notify Amtrak ahead of time.

4. Tact, unfortunately isn't a god given trait in all of us. This person obviously is lacking and I apologize.

Good:

1 & 2. The EB and the CS have some premium service which isn't offered on other trains. Mostly marketing and management decisions I surmise.

3. I'm very glad you experienced good operating equipment so recently. We have had a bad rash of cars traveling with defective climate control, HVAC lately. It's rough on everyone passengers and crew alike.

I do encourage you to call Customer Relations. You feedback is valuable and does get forwarded to the appropriate departments and managers.


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## rail_rider (Jan 4, 2010)

ez223 said:


> Amtrak added sugar-free syrup to it's menu back in June. It's supposed to be on automatic par for LD trains serving french toast or pancakes. I can't guarantee it's offered automatically onboard but it should be available upon request.


Was on the TE & CL since June and did not see any sugar-free syrup. To be fair, I didn't ask as I had been told prior to June that it wasn't available. I hope this is true. I hope someone will post if they have been able to order it onboard.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 5, 2010)

rail_rider said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak added sugar-free syrup to it's menu back in June. It's supposed to be on automatic par for LD trains serving french toast or pancakes. I can't guarantee it's offered automatically onboard but it should be available upon request.
> ...


Now that you mention it, I did see sugar-free syrup at breakfast on trains #7 and #8 at Christmas time.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 5, 2010)

and the fact that amtrak in a way is like CSX if it ain't broke don't fix it. there are lots of minor things they can do with there little shoe string budget to prevent this kind of stuff. install air dryers on the brake lines for one.


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## oldtimer (Jan 5, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> and the fact that amtrak in a way is like CSX if it ain't broke don't fix it. there are lots of minor things they can do with there little shoe string budget to prevent this kind of stuff. install air dryers on the brake lines for one.


I can tell you that in my 37 years of working for Amtrak I can assure you that every locomotive ordered and built for Amtrak has been equipped with at least one and some more than one air dryer.

:blink: :blink: :blink:


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## JayPea (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm diabetic (type 2) and I guess I'm one of the lucky ones: I've had diabetes for four years now and have always had excellent control of my sugar levels. I was told by my dietician that I didn't have to avoid sugar altogether, just limit my intake so I will sometimes have dessert, sometimes not. They have had fresh fruit available in the past but that option seems to have gone by the wayside. I also take diabetic-friendly snacks along.


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## GG-1 (Jan 5, 2010)

oldtimer2 said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > and the fact that amtrak in a way is like CSX if it ain't broke don't fix it. there are lots of minor things they can do with there little shoe string budget to prevent this kind of stuff. install air dryers on the brake lines for one.
> ...


Aloha

Glad you confirmed what I thought. I couldn't think of anything that uses compressed Air that did not have to deal with the water vapor issues. My old truck that that had Air Brakes had "spitters" on each storage tank. No Dryer as the temp never goes below ?55. 59 might be the lowest ever on Oahu.

Mahalo

Eric

BTW: Enjoyed the evening we had in Chicago, Start of the last Gathering.


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## Jeremy (Jan 6, 2010)

My wife and I will be taking the EB round trip from Portland to Chicago this coming September. I appreciate the early breakfast warning for the last day into PDX. Are there other tips for this route of which we should be aware? Three years ago we took the CZ and had a great time except I didn't get my wife's vegan menu request in on time so she had to pick through the standard menu (actually, I was the one who suffered). 

Jeremy


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## JoanieBlon (Jan 6, 2010)

Jeremy said:


> My wife and I will be taking the EB round trip from Portland to Chicago this coming September. I appreciate the early breakfast warning for the last day into PDX. Are there other tips for this route of which we should be aware? Three years ago we took the CZ and had a great time except I didn't get my wife's vegan menu request in on time so she had to pick through the standard menu (actually, I was the one who suffered).
> Jeremy


If I am not mistaken, when the train splits in Spokane, the one (only) Dining Car goes to Seattle (closes at 7am) and the Lounge Car with the Cafe on the first level goes to Portland. I read somewhere that only "cold" selections (and probably limited as well) would be available on the Portland section for breakfast when headed Westbound. I've poked around a bit and can't find anything with that information on it right now. I'm not certain what sort of meals are available from Portland to Spokane when headed Eastbound.
Hopefully someone with personal experience can expand a bit on this information....


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## Jeremy (Jan 6, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> If I am not mistaken, when the train splits in Spokane, the one (only) Dining Car goes to Seattle (closes at 7am) and the Lounge Car with the Cafe on the first level goes to Portland. I read somewhere that only "cold" selections (and probably limited as well) would be available on the Portland section for breakfast when headed Westbound. I've poked around a bit and can't find anything with that information on it right now. I'm not certain what sort of meals are available from Portland to Spokane when headed Easbound.
> Hopefully someone with personal experience can expand a bit on this information....


Thanks for the clue -- I found it in the timetable on the Amtrak web site "Dining . . . Not available between Spokane and Portland. Sleeping car service passengers will receive complimentary cold meal service."

As regards meals on the eastbound #8, the above caveat may also apply, since the train leaves Portland at 4:45 PM and arrives at Spokane at 12:13 AM. Clearly, dinner should be in there somewhere. . . this almost argues for a Seattle departure against Portland (to get a hot meal) but we have friends to store our car in Portland and the tix are already bought. Kind of suggests having a big, late lunch before boarding in Portland. This we are capable of doing. Lotsa good restaurants there.

BTW, are the Seattle and Portland legs combined at Spokane or do they run two separate trains? I've never read how this is managed. The timing would seem to argue for a combination, since the Portland passengers spend an hour in Spokane and the Seattle pax almost 45 minutes between midnight and 1AM.

Jeremy


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 6, 2010)

A pretty decent box lunch and choice of drink (non alcohol)is servedon the PDX-SPK #28 usually like three choices of entree. Ane yes, the train is coupled to #8 out of SEA in SPK. It's dark this time of year so they'll miss the Columbia River scenery, you have to ride #27 from SPK-PDX to see it till Summer comes! Pretty much the same thing from SEA-CHI!


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## Jeremy (Jan 6, 2010)

We are traveling in mid-September so we will see some of the Columbia if the train is on time leaving PDX. Mid-September we should be able to see up to The Dalles and on the return leg we'll see a little more if we can wake up early enough. Most of what Lewis and Clark saw is drowned now anyway. Thanks for the word on the train connection.

My only remaining concern is proper communications with Amtrak so my wife gets her vegan option menu.

Jeremy



jimhudson said:


> A pretty decent box lunch and choice of drink (non alcohol)is servedon the PDX-SPK #28 usually like three choices of entree. Ane yes, the train is coupled to #8 out of SEA in SPK. It's dark this time of year so they'll miss the Columbia River scenery, you have to ride #27 from SPK-PDX to see it till Summer comes! Pretty much the same thing from SEA-CHI!


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