# Special Agent Pat



## Pat (May 9, 2010)

Hello everyone. This is former Special Agent Pat. I know many of you made jest of the little occurence between me and one of your members back in the fall of 2008. I would like to ease some of your fears and let you know that I am no longer with the Amtrak Counter Terroism Unit, formely known as OSSSO. Let me address a few issues. Why? As you are all "rail fans" of Amtrak and loyal riders, I feel like you should be aware of the status of your security apparatus in which you are placing your trust.

Fall 2008: I know that the gentlemen, Fez, felt harrassed that day and I would like to let you know my intent was not to make ANY pasenger feel harrassed in any way. My intent that day was to adjudicate what I thought was suspicious behavior - a person taking pictures of passengers loading a train. You see, the trains, the stations, and the scenery around certain stations (especially Sante Fe station in San Diego) are all very photogenic scenes. However, a line of passengers waiting to board, in the opinion of a trained Counter Terrorism Operator is not. I spoke to Mr. Fez and realized immediatley he was not a threat, and let him go on his way. In Mr. Fez's defense I will admit that I am not a very pleasant person to deal with sometimes, and I am sure that was one of those days! Before any of you comments, please keep in mind my altruistic purpose: LOOKING FOR THOSE THAT WISH TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HARM ON THE RAIL SYSTEMS. Please continue reading to put MY mindset into perspective.

Trained CT Operators and their role at Amtrak: Madrid 2004. London 2005. Mumbai 2006. Mumbai 2008. Moscow 2010. To name a few, these were all major attacks upon rail systems in the past 10 years. This is why Amtrak decided to tap into some of America's most talented pool of CT Operators - to establish a unit that could deal with modern terrorism in the rail sector. Many comments were made about the legitamacy of our Special Agent status, our abilities, and our jurisdisction. I am here to tell you all that OSSSO stood up what was the most capable Counter Terrorism Unit in the rail industry and one of the top CTU's in domestic law enforcement. Who were these men?

The Men of OSSSO: I will not speak about my former teamates except to say they are impeccable human beings and the epitomy of professional operators. Let me put it into perspective: I am a former Marine Sniper, an Army Special Forces Sergeant (a "Green Beret"), and fought in Afghanistan and Iraq during four separate combat tours. And you know what? With all of that experience I still felt like I had to hustle to keep up in OSSSO! Yes, the unit was stacked with an incredible group of experienced professionals who were there for one reason - to do the job and protect America.

OSSSO Today: OSSSO is gone for good. As of two weeks ago all of the Special Agents of OSSSO were issued "impact" letters stating that their jobs were being abolished and and realigned underneath the uniformed Amtrak Police Department (APD). They would be allowed to re-apply for those positions, they would take a significant pay cut, and be forced to join the APD union. Their roles as CT Agents would be significantly reduced as new members of the APD. Some of you may or may not be aware of this outcome. Some of you may be for it, and some of you may be against it. The bottom line is this: Your rail system now is less safe than it was when OSSSO existed in it's original capacity. The tragedy in all of this is that it happened out of pure jealously and political will. Your rail was safer when these men roamed the halls of your stations and the isle-ways of your trains. These men could conducted more intelligence gathering in a single night than all of APD would in an entire month. Each CT operator brought more experience and capability to the station than every APD officer combined. Do I display a little resentment in my tone? Yes I do. Not because I lost moy job (I left in good standing from Amtrak and found a commensurate position) but because it makes me sick to my stomach to see fellow Americans allow our security apparatus to degrade to such mediocrity under such an inept law enforcement agency (APD).

Next Steps: If you care, please do something. Call a congressman. Call a friend. Call someone at The Post. If not, at least be informed and be vigilant, because people like me have moved on. Your security and well being now rests in the hands of union workers who will only work when and where they are told, and will only do the minimum. Why? Because that is all they have to do and that is all that is expected from them. The men of OSSSO? They would have laid their lives down for any one you in the course of their duties if it meant stopping the "wolf at the gate". Unfortunatly the men of OSSSO are all but gone.

Thank you and God speed.

Former Special Agent Pat


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## PetalumaLoco (May 9, 2010)

You had me until the anti-union rant. Nice try.


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## mercedeslove (May 9, 2010)

Ok buddy.

I know your job is important and you kept us safe, but I think I will be just as safe with APD. Pretty sure they aren't going to hire anyone b*ob to do the job. I am sure he will be qualified to do it.

As for the pictures...well I happen to take them as well. I usually take station photos on layover/smoke break stops. Yes there are PAX waiting to get on and off. They may be in the shots, I am not planning an attack on my fellow countrymen. I also do not own a Pathfinder either.

I feel safer on a train than I do on a plane.

Sorry that you lost your job, but belittling APD is not cool and is very childish.


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 9, 2010)

PetalumaLoco said:


> You had me until the anti-union rant. Nice try.


Agreed.

Thanks for your service. Hope you find a job... that doesn't involve trains.

EDIT: Technically he lost me after the whole "a line of pax is not". Who says people are not photogenic? That's 50% of the Amtrak experience, the people you meet on board-- whether you see them, talk to them, or just notice them. Where's the threat of taking pictures of a boarding line. Simply counting them would have been a more effective way to garner that information for nefarious purposes.


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## Guest (May 9, 2010)

Being forced to join a union sucks. I agree with him.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 9, 2010)

if this really is PL and not someone who Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.


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## Guest (May 9, 2010)

I work for APD, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies...


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## caravanman (May 9, 2010)

I wonder if "Pat" would be out of his job so soon if he were a member of a union...

Ed


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## Ryan (May 9, 2010)

PetalumaLoco said:


> You had me until the anti-union rant. Nice try.


There might actually be something to his rant.

http://www.amtrakfop.com/index.php?doc_id=34

Very interesting indeed.

*If* all this is legit, I'm for it. Counterterrorism work should be a core competency of everyone at APD. The last thing that we need is some "elite" paramilitary CT forces based in only two cities.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 9, 2010)

what we don't need is innocent railfans being harrassed for taking a picture of a train. amtrak promotes picture taking for NTD and photo contests yet railfans continue to get harrassed for doing something legal.


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## had8ley (May 9, 2010)

GET THE ROPE... QUICK !!!


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## wayman (May 9, 2010)

Ryan said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > You had me until the anti-union rant. Nice try.
> ...


Given Ryan's link, I believe that really was (former) Special Agent Pat. I don't think an imposter would have gone to the trouble to get so many details right about an internal rearrangement that I imagine many of us were completely unaware of.

The "anti-union rant" does not strike me as off-base for someone in his position. Many non-union employees are extraordinarily resentful of unions. There is a lot of genuine hatred there. I will not say anything about whether I think those feelings are right or wrong; I will merely observe that I have seen these feelings first-hand many times in my experience with political campaigns (where I've heard the views -- the strongly expressed views! -- of many, many individuals, organizations, advocacy groups, and unions themselves).

So, Pat, thank you for posting. I happen to strongly disagree with your views about the need for such a security force and about the way it was implemented, but I appreciate your taking the time to share your side of the story and your experiences. You remind us that there are several sides to this issue, and you remind us that we should keep separate our views of the politics, the job, and the actual people -- a difficult but important lesson.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 9, 2010)

I did a little more research with the information he provided and it all appears legitimate including his military service.

Maybe we can finally put this behind us!

Good luck in your future endeavors.


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## AG1 (May 9, 2010)

"Do not feed the trolls" and its abbreviation DNFTT redirect here. For the Wikimedia essay, see "What is a troll?".


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## Acela150 (May 9, 2010)

I along with a few others were with the story till the union rant.

I don't understand how you think someone is acting in a suspicious matter by taking a picture of a station while people are waiting to board. That's like saying you can't take pictures of Union Station in DC.

Steve


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## the_traveler (May 9, 2010)

I do believe this is Pat, buy I agree that CT should be more of an issue with APD too. Why just have in a very few select cities? 

I have photos of my home station (KIN) and my home-away-from-home station (PDX) as backgrounds on my iPhone *AND* my netbook! And they do include people! So am I Public Enemy #1? :huh: (I hope not.)

I was in PHL twice this past week (once for NTD). On Wednesday, they did do "random" searches prior to boarding the train. However, only *1* person was chosen (out of 50+ in line)! And as for the random ID checks, perhaps I'm lucky, but I've never been asked for ID on the train!

Good luck in all your future endeavors, and thank you for sharing "the other side of the story"!


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## Everydaymatters (May 9, 2010)

Wow!

I was totally ignoring this thread for a while, but decided to see why it was receiving so many replies.

Having had security clearance during the Viet Nam buildup and working at an ordinance plant, I can appreciate his concerns. I feel Americans are too trusting and need to understand that we are very vulnerable.

The World War II saying "loose lips sink ships" applies today as well.


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## Ryan (May 9, 2010)

"Land of the free" does as well and the right to photograph in public is pretty well settled.

Rouge authoritarians that enforce nonexistent rules aren't the answer to anything.


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## MattW (May 9, 2010)

Sorry, but everything Pat said only reinforces my previous opinion of him. "...a person taking pictures of passengers loading a train." unless you aren't taking pics of the train or trolley or doing anything except pointing straight up at the sky, you're gonna get people in the pics at a station! If that's "suspicious behavior" then why not "question" the organization that put the surveillance cameras up? Or Google with its satellite imagery? Or the person in the building taking pictures from across the street?

"...are all very photogenic scenes. However, a line of passengers waiting to board, in the opinion of a trained Counter Terrorism Operator is not." Your opinion doesn't matter. The Supreme court has held that photography is a first amendment RIGHT and you aren't the Supreme court and can't overturn it. Don't like it? Start a case against it.


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## Donctor (May 9, 2010)

Acela150 said:


> I along with a few others were with the story till the union rant.
> I don't understand how you think someone is acting in a suspicious matter by taking a picture of a station while people are waiting to board. That's like saying you can't take pictures of Union Station in DC.
> 
> Steve


You can't take pictures of Union Station in DC. I got kicked out for doing just that. Wasn't a big deal (because I had other things I was actually supposed to be doing), but it was still slightly bothersome.


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## ALC Rail Writer (May 9, 2010)

Amtking said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > I along with a few others were with the story till the union rant.
> ...


I wonder if they tell that to all of the tourists with cameras...


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## Donctor (May 9, 2010)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Amtking said:
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> 
> > Acela150 said:
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It was moderately surprising, given the visible T.A. ID badge of said photographer.


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## MattW (May 10, 2010)

I took lots of pics of Union Station and never even made eye contact with a badge much less having a confrontation with one. I was more concerned with the trains though and not the hall, or ceiling or waiting area or whatever, but I even accidentally bumped into someone walking down the platform while I was turned back trying to grab a pic of a MARC HHP-8 in full view of several "official" types, but again, nothing happened.

Wasn't there also an incident where a rent-a-cop at WAS told a news crew or someone who already had permission to be there that pic-taking wasn't allowed? Not only was non-commercial already allowed, but these people even had explicit permission IIRC.


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## Acela150 (May 10, 2010)

Yes and to make it better they were interviewing the now retired Cliff Black.


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## Donctor (May 10, 2010)

MattW said:


> I took lots of pics of Union Station and never even made eye contact with a badge much less having a confrontation with one. I was more concerned with the trains though and not the hall, or ceiling or waiting area or whatever, but I even accidentally bumped into someone walking down the platform while I was turned back trying to grab a pic of a MARC HHP-8 in full view of several "official" types, but again, nothing happened.


I had a confrontation with a badge, whilst _wearing_ a TA badge (albeit from a different TA). I didn't bother to argue. I didn't want to risk my own ID.


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## tp49 (May 10, 2010)

MattW said:


> The Supreme court has held that photography is a first amendment RIGHT and you aren't the Supreme court and can't overturn it. Don't like it? Start a case against it.


The Supreme Court also held that First Amendment rights are subject to restrictions (generally time, place or manner) and private landowners can legally outright ban you from doing so on their land.


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## Ryan (May 10, 2010)

Amtking said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > I took lots of pics of Union Station and never even made eye contact with a badge much less having a confrontation with one. I was more concerned with the trains though and not the hall, or ceiling or waiting area or whatever, but I even accidentally bumped into someone walking down the platform while I was turned back trying to grab a pic of a MARC HHP-8 in full view of several "official" types, but again, nothing happened.
> ...


Your situation seems to be out of the ordinary. Since I take pictures of and at WAS all the time, I'd be interested in hearing more.



tp49 said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > The Supreme court has held that photography is a first amendment RIGHT and you aren't the Supreme court and can't overturn it. Don't like it? Start a case against it.
> ...


While true, Amtrak has no such prohibitions, and overzealous employees can't make rules up on the spot.


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## had8ley (May 10, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Amtking said:
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> > MattW said:
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"Can't" is a four letter word~ don't tell a NYP based diner crew they "can't" treat you anyway they want. We may have a new movie of "Guess Whose Coming to Dinner Trackside?"


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## had8ley (May 10, 2010)

I've run into too many "Pat's" in my RR career. My first encounter we were spotting a carload of beer in downtown NOL. All of a sudden a black pajama figure comes crawling through the weeds next to the ware house. "Don't let your light (switch lantern) go out or you're a dead man." Who was this masked man? One of our illustrious special agents, armed with a sawed-off shot gun, who had gotten thrown off the NOL police force; well known for corruption and dis-organization. He was staking out the warehouse in Viet Namese style black pajamas.

We pulled up to the yard office in Avondale (the T&P-MP freight yard on the west bank of the Huey P. Long bridge) after bringing a train across the river. They had us switch some cars on the head end of our train. I heard a moaning coming from the road next to the tracks. It turned out to be a hobo that was found by the special agent in a box car. (Yes, they did have box cars back then.) The mosquitoes had him bloody as he was handcuffed to a RR crossing sign and there was a street light directly above him. I went and got some water and was met by another goof ball "Special Agent" who told me I'd go to jail with him if I gave him any more water. Turns out goof ball was well known by Jefferson Parish P.D. and they refused to come pick up the hobo for trespassing. So what to do? Goof ball (a name given to this genius by the men at the RR) loads the hobo into the trunk of his RR car and hauls the "major" offender off to jail. I haven't met a special agent in over 40 years that impressed me with an over abundance of brain cells. And furthermore Pat, I'm glad you didn't join APD as the union would have had to waste their time and efforts to defend you every time you pulled another stunt.


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## AlanB (May 10, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Amtking said:
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> > MattW said:
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You're correct that Amtrak has no such prohibitions, but then Amtrak doesn't own LAUS, which is why you can get in trouble there for photos since the actual owners can set whatever rules they want and Amtrak must follow them. And at WUS part of the confusion seems to stem from the fact that Amtrak doesn't directly operate the station, they've hired a management company to run the station. I'm not sure just how that might factor into what Tom has cited.


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## PerRock (May 10, 2010)

MattW said:


> Wasn't there also an incident where a rent-a-cop at WAS told a news crew or someone who already had permission to be there that pic-taking wasn't allowed? Not only was non-commercial already allowed, but these people even had explicit permission IIRC.


Yes I remember that... If I recall the news crew happened to be interviewing the guy in charge of security at WUS at the time they were told off for taking the video. Just did a quick search to find the vid; but didn't I'll keep looking.

peter

Edit: Found it!

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/Union_Station_Photo_Flap

peter


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## MattW (May 10, 2010)

AlanB said:


> Ryan said:
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> > Amtking said:
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Yea, but didn't the California Supreme Court also rule that generally public areas (malls, train stations etc.) had to allow certain first amendment activities thus LAUS would have to comply?


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## George Harris (May 10, 2010)

Everydaymatters said:


> Wow!
> I was totally ignoring this thread for a while, but decided to see why it was receiving so many replies.
> 
> Having had security clearance during the Viet Nam buildup and working at an ordinance plant, I can appreciate his concerns. I feel Americans are too trusting and need to understand that we are very vulnerable.
> ...


Having been in Vietnam as a Leiutenant platoon leader, the main thing I saw security do was protect the higher ups from embarrasment. Many times it got a lot like a childish game, I have the power, Nyah, Nyah, and you don't. To give a couple of outstanding examples:

No pictures of the general's compound, which was in the middle of Long Binh post, but had its own security fence, complete with gun emplacements. The main reason I could see was that they did not want the outside world to know how good they lived.

We had the US Army 1:25,000 maps all over the place, on walls in company HQ, carried around in jeeps, thrown away if they got messed up, no controls whatsoever, but when I wanted to bring a few home to cover where I had been: NO. NO that is a security violation.

And then, there was the fact that we had a lot of convoys with Vietnamese civilian drivers. The oversight of these things was so poor that they usually were able to make arrangements to sell some of the fuel out of the trucks along the way.

Now, let us go to Washington DC:

For many years the CIA headquarters location was well known, but the sign on the exit from the GW Parkway said Fairbank Highway Research station, or some such.

CIA had a major computer installation next to what was going to be one of the WMATA underground lines. Keeping this secret seemed like a very good idea, and its location was, butit became a vibration issue to WMATA, and thereby its location became fairly well known. It could have been handled much better and more sureptitiously.

I could go on and on, but suffice to say that while I believe that there is a need for real security for some things, a lot of what passes for securty is either play acting or complete farce. This no photographing of trains and tracks is way up there on the list.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 10, 2010)

It seems fishy, but I doubt a troll would go to the trouble of making this post. If you ask me, I think it's Whooz.


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## MrFSS (May 10, 2010)

Green Maned Lion said:


> It seems fishy, but I doubt a troll would go to the trouble of making this post. If you ask me, I think it's Whooz.


Not Whooz - the ISP for the original poster is from near Baltimore. Maybe its Rafi!


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## Green Maned Lion (May 10, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > It seems fishy, but I doubt a troll would go to the trouble of making this post. If you ask me, I think it's Whooz.
> ...


Alright, I admit Whooz is probably not computer savvy enough to use an IP wrapper, but its possible.


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## GG-1 (May 10, 2010)

Aloha

Not as Moderator but as an individual, What makes ex-special agent Pat so important that his actions are so discussed. His conduct was over the edge, his Agency was over the edge, enough said.


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## Ryan (May 10, 2010)

MrFSS said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > It seems fishy, but I doubt a troll would go to the trouble of making this post. If you ask me, I think it's Whooz.
> ...


Geez, now I gotta worry about taking pictures at BWI!


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## supergrandmother (May 10, 2010)

> You can't take pictures of Union Station in DC. I got kicked out for doing just that. Wasn't a big deal (because I had other things I was actually supposed to be doing), but it was still slightly bothersome.


Whaaat?? I've taken lots of pictures of Union Station in DC..... inside, outside, ceiling, trains, waiting area, etc., etc. I'm from the South and I knew that people here wouldn't believe a tale of a station like that if I just told it. <_< <_< I mean we have Atlanta which is o.k. just no parking and Birmingham where you have to walk past a line of guys out front who want to roll your luggage into the station for a few bucks.....no food court, no shops, not even a really clean restroom.  So I took pictures and more pictures and no body said anything to this grandmother!


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## Donctor (May 10, 2010)

supergrandmother said:


> Whaaat?? I've taken lots of pictures of Union Station in DC..... inside, outside, ceiling, trains, waiting area, etc., etc. I'm from the South and I knew that people here wouldn't believe a tale of a station like that if I just told it. <_< <_< I mean we have Atlanta which is o.k. just no parking and Birmingham where you have to walk past a line of guys out front who want to roll your luggage into the station for a few bucks.....no food court, no shops, not even a really clean restroom.  So I took pictures and more pictures and no body said anything to this grandmother!


Yeah, my luck in these situations tends to be pretty bad. Strangely enough, two years ago I was given permission to photograph the Lake Shore and Cardinal inside CUS. I had to be escorted by some type of Amtrak security person so as not to raise suspicion. She was pretty chill.

I've never had a real issue in NYP. Nor in PHL. Apparently security has tightened up in PHL, but last summer there were two cops and a dog, who were sometimes in the station and sometimes leaning against the building exterior in the sun. I don't think I've ever seen someone walk a dog so frequently. Pretty much unrestricted access to any platform. The operations people in PHL were unusually nice.


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## Dan O (May 10, 2010)

Hey there,

I am glad he stopped by to write a bit and tell his story. I don't have to agree with all his opinions to appreciate that he stopped by for a visit. I assume he and others who did his job did more than stop people from taking pictures so try to appreciate the other things he did and am glad for his service.

Dan


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## amtrakwolverine (May 11, 2010)

All he did was harass innocent rail-fans. if you can take pictures inside WUS what happens on national train day. is that a cover up just to see how many terrorists show up then arrest them in a giant sting operation.



> BREAKING NEWS" 1000'S of terrorests sporting cameras were arrested today at operation national train day"


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## Bigval109 (May 11, 2010)

Pat said:


> Hello everyone. This is former Special Agent Pat. I know many of you made jest of the little occurence between me and one of your members back in the fall of 2008. I would like to ease some of your fears and let you know that I am no longer with the Amtrak Counter Terroism Unit, formely known as OSSSO.
> ..................................
> 
> Next Steps: If you care, please do something. Call a congressman. Call a friend. Call someone at The Post. If not, at least be informed and be vigilant, because people like me have moved on. Your security and well being now rests in the hands of union workers who will only work when and where they are told, and will only do the minimum. Why? Because that is all they have to do and that is all that is expected from them. The men of OSSSO? They would have laid their lives down for any one you in the course of their duties if it meant stopping the "wolf at the gate". Unfortunatly the men of OSSSO are all but gone.
> ...


I thank you for all you do and did for the safety of our rail system and for what you have done for our country. Too often we as americans take things to lightly and don't begin to focus until something tragic happens. Once again I thank-you for your Great service to our country.To often we are misdirected from the main issues of the day by a few paid loud mouths which care very little for the welfare or the safety of the american people. For some reason, we as a people are only galvinized when the unthinkable happens and then it is too late. Thanks again for your GREAT service to our country. And May God continue to Bless You and the many other who do and would lay down their lives for the safety and well being of our country.


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## Ryan (May 11, 2010)

Yeah, I really feel safer that we had someone out there harassing photographers.


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## chuljin (May 16, 2010)

'nuff said.


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## VentureForth (May 17, 2010)

Wow. In all the replies, VT (in particular) keeps reiterating that Pat shouldn't harrass passengers. He explained that in his post (like it or not).

Can't find anything in his post that would make him a troll or a fake. The grammar and concise writing are expressive of someone with a higher degree of education, and thus, eptitude; not a blogger or a regular lazy forum poster.

I appreciate the post, Pat. Thank you for backing off when the intent of the photographer was determined. And, yes, I would much rather put our safety in the hands of trained counter terrorism experts than unionized train cops.

(Oops. That was an anti-union rant. Was I believable up until then?)


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## PetalumaLoco (May 17, 2010)

VentureForth said:


> Can't find anything in his post that would make him a troll or a fake. The grammar and concise writing are expressive of someone with a higher degree of education, and thus, eptitude; not a blogger or a regular lazy forum poster.


I don't think he's a troll either. But I've run across educated trolls. And all bloggers are inept?


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## Pat (Jul 31, 2010)

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> 
> Not as Moderator but as an individual, What makes ex-special agent Pat so important that his actions are so discussed. His conduct was over the edge, his Agency was over the edge, enough said.


Let me know how to get a hold of a Global Moderator privately, please.

Pat


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## Ryan (Jul 31, 2010)

Only way to do it privately is register and send one a private message.


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## Acela150 (Jul 31, 2010)

Pat said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > Aloha
> ...


Funny thing is.. Is that GG1 Is a moderator!


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## amtrakwolverine (Jul 31, 2010)

chuljin said:


> 'nuff said.


so true.


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## Ryan (Jul 31, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> chuljin said:
> 
> 
> > 'nuff said.
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Sadly, yes. Although it would be even more accurate without the "No Picture Taking" sign, since being allowed to take photos still doesn't protect you from being harassed.


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## AlanB (Aug 1, 2010)

Pat said:


> GG-1 said:
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> > Aloha
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You're welcome to contact me by email. Simply put my display name to the left of this post in front of @amtraktrains.com to reach me.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 1, 2010)

Interesting thread. I wonder why he chose to come back to chat "privately" with a moderator. I hope they don't start "privately" handing over our information without a subpoena or editing posts that our counter-enthusiast expert deems harmful to god and country. But, rather than just assume what this guy may or may not be up to I would like to simply ask Alan and the AU admin team to explain to the rest of us what this guy wants with our forum. His track record is not very reassuring, to say the least. Assuming this guy is even who he says he is.


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## amtrakwolverine (Aug 1, 2010)

Ryan said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
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> > chuljin said:
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Yep not when police or anyone with a badge and a gun make up rules as they go along. I guess its a matter of time before the gathering is shut down by the wannabe Hitlers we call the police.


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## JayPea (Aug 1, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > amtrakwolverine said:
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Yes, I'd go ahead and make absolutely sure that I imagined the absolute worst scenario possible and then go ahead and think up something even worse than the worse.


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