# Rail service Philadelphia to Reading PA



## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 18, 2022)

There was an interesting article on this topic in the latest issue of Passenger Train Journal by Richard Rudolph of the Rail Users Network. (Copies of PTJ can be obtained from White River Productions). This route has been talked about since 1981 when the original Reading RR service then ran by Conrail was discontinued and is identified as a future route in Amtrak's Connect US plan. 

There appears to be 2 routes under consideration. One would be using the Norfolk Southern mainline from Reading as far as Norristown then using the tracks of SEPTA's Norristown Regional Rail line to the main north trunk at 16th St. Junction then to center city and 30th st. Upper level via the tunnel. Since the NS line is not electrified and the tunnel is not set up for Diesel operation this would require dual mode power. 

An alternative route is to build a short connection at Ivy Ridge from the Norristown line to the right of way of the former PRR branch that was operated as SEPTA's Manayunk/Ivy Ridge line until the 1980s when the line was abandoned North of Cynwyd due to the condition of the Schuylkill River bridge. This would require replacement of track removed from the right of way plus the bridge may need work to make it useable for trains again. One complication is the line was converted to a rail trail and I do not know if the line can be restored and keeping the trail access as well. This scheme would allow trains to operate into 30th Street lower level via the connection at 52nd St. to the route used today by the Keystones and the Pennsylvanian. 

Of course either of these options would require buy in by Norfolk Southern and undoubtedly they would want track improvements to deal with the increased traffic. 

Things are starting to move on this project with the formation of a Schuylkill River Passenger Rail Authority that will have the ability to oversee planning, reception of federal funds, and working with agencies such as Amtrak, PennDOT and the feds. 

Also Amtrak has started Thruway bus service from Philly to Pottstown and Reading which should help build a base for future rail service.

Of course a lot has to happen yet before actual work starts on this project but one can at least be hopeful.


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## jis (Nov 18, 2022)

Without the benefit of any detailed studies but from just staring long enough at the SPV Railroad Maps of Pennsylvania I had come to the conclusion that those two are the most likely alternatives, and had mentioned the first one in a discussion in a discussion thread here on AU. I thought that the Cynwyd Line extensions to be logistically difficult and possibly much more expensive because of the work that will be necessary on the bridge. But the entire thing was a bunch of SWAGs in my head. Glad to to see reality aligns well with it.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 18, 2022)

Agreed there are a lot of issues with the Cynwyd route. However besides not requiring dual mode equipment it also has the advantage of running into 30th st lower level which besides already being under Amtrak control would also allow services to continue to New York like the Keystones. But I suspect they will go with the Norristown Line routing given that dual modes are becoming a lot more mainstream.

Actually it just occurred to me that you could continue East from the upper level of 30th st as SEPTA's Trenton line trains do today.


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## jis (Nov 18, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Agreed there are a lot of issues with the Cynwyd route. However besides not requiring dual mode equipment it also has the advantage of running into 30th st lower level which besides already being under Amtrak control would also allow services to continue to New York like the Keystones. But I suspect they will go with the Norristown Line routing given that dual modes are becoming a lot more mainstream.
> 
> Actually it just occurred to me that you could continue East from the upper level of 30th st as SEPTA's Trenton line trains do today.


Arriving into the upper level would not be a hindrance to continuing on in either the direction of New York or Washington DC. SEPTA service goes both ways from the upper level today.


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## dlerach (Nov 18, 2022)

There's also a connecting track from the ex-Reading to the ex-PRR just south of North Philadelphia, which wouldn't require re-activating any ROW or running through the Center City Tunnels.


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## jis (Nov 18, 2022)

dlerach said:


> There's also a connecting track from the ex-Reading to the ex-PRR just south of North Philadelphia, which wouldn't require re-activating any ROW or running through the Center City Tunnels.


I was thinking of that just moments back, but did not quite recall if the connection was at the right position and orientation for a train coming in from the Reading side to get onto the NEC at the North Philadelphia interlocking.


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## west point (Nov 19, 2022)

jis said:


> I was thinking of that just moments back, but did not quite recall if the connection was at the right position and orientation for a train coming in from the Reading side to get onto the NEC at the North Philadelphia interlocking.


I looked at open railway map and it does show an industrial trackf romthe Reading to PRR in the SW corner. However inbound OK but there are no CPs for out bounds to get to Reading outbound track unless outbounds run wrong direction main?


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 19, 2022)

jis said:


> Arriving into the upper level would not be a hindrance to continuing on in either the direction of New York or Washington DC. SEPTA service goes both ways from the upper level today.


Yes I realized that after I had made my original post, since SEPTA trains to Trenton depart regularly from the upper level.

As for the connector at North Philadelphia, I believe that is referred to as the Swampoodle connector and I do not know what condition it is in or how useable it is.


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## BalmyZephyr (Nov 19, 2022)

As a longtime Manayunk resident, I can pretty much guarantee that running trains over the Manayunk Bridge again would be opposed vigorously by the communities that have enjoyed the open space (more than a trail) and fabulous views for the past seven years. In general I think it's a huge mistake to remove track and that the movement Rails WITH Trails makes a lot more sense than Rails TO Trails, but once the whole bridge has been wonderfully available to The People, it can't go back again.


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## Green Maned Lion (Nov 20, 2022)

Personallly I think service to Reading is imperative. It’s a beautiful and vibrant city and I feel not only should it have service to Philadelphia but be a central rail hub for eastern Pennsylvania with hourly service to Allentown, Scranton, Pottsville, and Harrisburg. This area of Pennsylvania is ripe for economic regrowth that could be easily jumpstarted with the availability of superior transit connections; many of these small cities economically collapsed such that they remain easily built from in a TOD way, and could provide a blueprint for American regrowth in the current climate reality.


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## BalmyZephyr (Nov 20, 2022)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Personallly I think service to Reading is imperative. It’s a beautiful and vibrant city and I feel not only should it have service to Philadelphia but be a central rail hub for eastern Pennsylvania with hourly service to Allentown, Scranton, Pottsville, and Harrisburg. This area of Pennsylvania is ripe for economic regrowth that could be easily jumpstarted with the availability of superior transit connections; many of these small cities economically collapsed such that they remain easily built from in a TOD way, and could provide a blueprint for American regrowth in the current climate reality.


Completely agree. Upriver of Reading is also surpassingly beautiful. Hamburg and Port Clinton, en route to Pottsville, are railroad history meccas! TOD is an apt comparison because many of the towns along the Schuylkill are canal towns (my area of research/photography) that are largely still compact and walkable.


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## railgeekteen (Nov 30, 2022)

I think that Septa should run this route instead.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 1, 2022)

railgeekteen said:


> I think that Septa should run this route instead.


Reading is outside the 5 county area that constitutes SEPTA, so its charter would have to change to add Berks County. 

Perhaps there should be a separate organization for the whole southeastern area including Berks, Northampton, and Lehigh counties (for eventual service to Allentown/Bethlehem) or it be run under PADOT.


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## Anderson (Dec 2, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Reading is outside the 5 county area that constitutes SEPTA, so its charter would have to change to add Berks County.
> 
> Perhaps there should be a separate organization for the whole southeastern area including Berks, Northampton, and Lehigh counties (for eventual service to Allentown/Bethlehem) or it be run under PADOT.


I mean, some sort of joint deal shouldn't be impossible...but I realize the mechanics would invariably be rather more of a mess.


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## jis (Dec 2, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Reading is outside the 5 county area that constitutes SEPTA, so its charter would have to change to add Berks County.
> 
> Perhaps there should be a separate organization for the whole southeastern area including Berks, Northampton, and Lehigh counties (for eventual service to Allentown/Bethlehem) or it be run under PADOT.


PADOT running it would most likely mean Amtrak running it as a Section 209 train. I hardly believe that PADOT would set up yet another passenger rail operating authority beyond one that contracts out the operation of service. They can barely keep the Pennsylvanian funded as it is.


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## VKurtB (Dec 4, 2022)

railgeekteen said:


> I think that Septa should run this route instead.


It has already been decided that this will be an Amtrak service.


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## railiner (Dec 4, 2022)

jis said:


> PADOT running it would most likely mean Amtrak running it as a Section 209 train. I hardly believe that PADOT would set up yet another passenger rail operating authority beyond one that contracts out the operation of service. They can barely keep the Pennsylvanian funded as it is.


Didn't SEPTA used to finance the trains from Philly to Pottsville during the Conrail era?


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## VKurtB (Dec 5, 2022)

railiner said:


> Didn't SEPTA used to finance the trains from Philly to Pottsville during the Conrail era?


Penn Central


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## railiner (Dec 5, 2022)

VKurtB said:


> Penn Central


That was prior to Conrail...


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 5, 2022)

Penn Central was absorbed into Conrail in 1976. Conrail ran the service to Reading and Pottsville until December 1982. This was a result of the Northeast Rail Service Act of 1981 which finally relieved Conrail of the responsibility to run the remaining passenger services. Services either had to be picked up by state or local agencies or they would be discontinued. SEPTA only picked up that portion of Conrail services that ran in their 5 county area which excluded Reading and Pottsville.


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## jis (Dec 5, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Penn Central was absorbed into Conrail in 1976. Conrail ran the service to Reading and Pottsville until December 1982. This was a result of the Northeast Rail Service Act of 1981 which finally relieved Conrail of the responsibility to run the remaining passenger services. Services either had to be picked up by state or local agencies or they would be discontinued. SEPTA only picked up that portion of Conrail services that ran in their 5 county area which excluded Reading and Pottsville.


In effect SEPTA discontinued all diesel service at that point and became an all electric outfit. They have been very reluctant to consider the possibility of operating any diesel service since then.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 5, 2022)

jis said:


> In effect SEPTA discontinued all diesel service at that point and became an all electric outfit. They have been very reluctant to consider the possibility of operating any diesel service since then.


Very true, especially once the Center City Tunnel was complete which had no provision for Diesel power thereby eliminating any possibility at least on the former Reading side. There was the half hearted attempt to run the shuttle from Fox Chase to Newtown which did not last long especially with the NIMBY opposition to rail service in that area.


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## railiner (Dec 5, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Penn Central was absorbed into Conrail in 1976. Conrail ran the service to Reading and Pottsville until December 1982. This was a result of the Northeast Rail Service Act of 1981 which finally relieved Conrail of the responsibility to run the remaining passenger services. Services either had to be picked up by state or local agencies or they would be discontinued. SEPTA only picked up that portion of Conrail services that ran in their 5 county area which excluded Reading and Pottsville.


So Conrail wasn’t receiving any subsidy while they ran it?
That’s very surprising to me…


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## MARC Rider (Dec 5, 2022)

Penn Central ) or its predecessor railroads had nothing to do with the Philadelphia - Pottsville service, as that was provided by the Reading Company. While I always thought that SEPTA had some hand in funding the service, my memory must be mistaken about the Reading/Pottsville trains, as they are, indeed, outside the SEPTA service area. It's possible that SEPTA at least partially funded the diesel service, as it did serve Norristown and Pottstown, which are both in the SEPTA service area. In any event, there must be some reason that the Reading didn't dump the service in 1971 when Amtrak was formed, and there must be some reason why Amtrak didn't take it over.


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## Septa9739 (Dec 13, 2022)

I think it would make the most sense for AMTRAK (with SEPTA’s blessing) to build a reverse Swampoodle Connection and run service via the NEC to the Chestnut Hill West Line And then switch over to the ex-Reading. The SEPTA Main Line is very congested with all stops trains and it will probably take 20+minutes to get from 30th Upper to 16th Street (where SEPTA will be as kind as AMTRAK is at ZOO and NORTH PHILADELPHIA) whereas PHL to PHN is scheduled for 8 minutes. In addition to likely being faster and avoiding pinch points in SEPTA territory, this routing could be entirely diesel. It could maybe happen that if SEPTA scheduled CHW trains right behind AMTRAK, timekeeping could improve. I don’t think running over the NS controlled ex-PRR to Norristown is wise because 1) it’s NS, 2) it (I think) would require reconfiguring ZOO, and 3) you forfeit (long term) stopping at Manayunk, Conshohocken, and Norristown TC, all of which could be potentially very busy. Any restoration of the Ivy Ridge Branch is a nonstarter from local opposition and cost standpoints.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 14, 2022)

Septa9739 said:


> I think it would make the most sense for AMTRAK (with SEPTA’s blessing) to build a reverse Swampoodle Connection and run service via the NEC to the Chestnut Hill West Line And then switch over to the ex-Reading. The SEPTA Main Line is very congested with all stops trains and it will probably take 20+minutes to get from 30th Upper to 16th Street (where SEPTA will be as kind as AMTRAK is at ZOO and NORTH PHILADELPHIA) whereas PHL to PHN is scheduled for 8 minutes. In addition to likely being faster and avoiding pinch points in SEPTA territory, this routing could be entirely diesel. It could maybe happen that if SEPTA scheduled CHW trains right behind AMTRAK, timekeeping could improve. I don’t think running over the NS controlled ex-PRR to Norristown is wise because 1) it’s NS, 2) it (I think) would require reconfiguring ZOO, and 3) you forfeit (long term) stopping at Manayunk, Conshohocken, and Norristown TC, all of which could be potentially very busy. Any restoration of the Ivy Ridge Branch is a nonstarter from local opposition and cost standpoints.


Interesting. The original Swampoodle concept (as discussed here moved the Chestnut Hill West service from running via Amtrak NEC and PHN station, to the SEPTA trunk line via the tunnel and 16th St. Junction which would have various benefits to CHW service (faster and avoiding congestion at PHN). So perhaps putting both this and the reverse Swampoodle you suggest in would move all SEPTA trains to the ex RDG and leave the connection at PHN just for Amtrak service to Reading. Kill 2 birds with one stone (and one construction project). But it makes too much sense so it will probably never happen


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## Anderson (Dec 14, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Penn Central ) or its predecessor railroads had nothing to do with the Philadelphia - Pottsville service, as that was provided by the Reading Company. While I always thought that SEPTA had some hand in funding the service, my memory must be mistaken about the Reading/Pottsville trains, as they are, indeed, outside the SEPTA service area. It's possible that SEPTA at least partially funded the diesel service, as it did serve Norristown and Pottstown, which are both in the SEPTA service area. In any event, there must be some reason that the Reading didn't dump the service in 1971 when Amtrak was formed, and there must be some reason why Amtrak didn't take it over.


So, funny thing...the Reading Railroad didn't join Amtrak. Now, it later got absorbed into Conrail, which probably muddles things a bit, but Reading itself didn't join.

This is not unlike why Amtrak never got down the FEC - I'd have been _stunned _if Amtrak wouldn't have opted to run trains down that line given the choice back in the 70s and 80s (directly picking up a string of towns along the coast plus the better station locations), but they didn't have the inherent right to do so since FEC had dropped its last pax train a few years before Amtrak was formed. The same thing crops up with ex-Rock Island routes - if the Rock Island had joined Amtrak, does anybody seriously think Amtrak _wouldn't _have tried to flip the California Zephyr over to serve Davenport and Des Moines instead of Burlington and Osceola?


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## Anderson (Dec 14, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Interesting. The original Swampoodle concept (as discussed here moved the Chestnut Hill West service from running via Amtrak NEC and PHN station, to the SEPTA trunk line via the tunnel and 16th St. Junction which would have various benefits to CHW service (faster and avoiding congestion at PHN). So perhaps putting both this and the reverse Swampoodle you suggest in would move all SEPTA trains to the ex RDG and leave the connection at PHN just for Amtrak service to Reading. Kill 2 birds with one stone (and one construction project). But it makes too much sense so it will probably never happen




So, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like this connection already exists? You might need to rehab it, but the connection seems to be there, and based on this discussion even if it takes a few minutes to get the train around it, it still avoids some bad spots on SEPTA, doesn't it?


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## Septa9739 (Dec 14, 2022)

The connection is there and is in ok shape. It would work fine for inbound service. I think problem is that it doesn’t tie into the ladder at NORTH PHILADELPHIA, requiring either reconstruction of the interlocking I think they just reconstructed or a significant (5ish minute) wrong way run, but I may be mistake.


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## Septa9739 (Dec 14, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> So perhaps putting both this and the reverse Swampoodle you suggest in would move all SEPTA trains to the ex RDG and leave the connection at PHN just for Amtrak service to Reading. Kill 2 birds with one stone (and one construction project).


I have two real concerns with the original Swampoodle Connection. The first is that, while I don’t believe heritage should guide our planning decisions, certain aspects our our two heritage systems continue to be true. Lines were designed with a specific terminus and capture area in mind. E.g. As an anecdotal rule use of 30th Street is much higher on the ex-PRR lines and use of Market East (Jefferson) is much higher on ex-RDG lines. This is mostly due to geography. The travel time TRE-30th on SEPTA is competitive enough, TRE-Jefferson really isn’t. Manayunk to Jefferson is pretty good. Manyunk to 30th really isn’t. I’m not sure that running CHW over the ex-RDG isn’t going to wreck its advantage, which is the better (theoretical) travel time to 30th. The other is apparently management of peak electrical system loads, but I don’t know much about that.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 14, 2022)

Yes there does appear to be a connection although I'm not sure what kind of state it is in, probably a fairly steep grade to get down to the Norristown tracks. Also there is no crossover on the Norristown tracks so that would need to be added.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 14, 2022)

Anderson said:


> View attachment 30654
> 
> So, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like this connection already exists? You might need to rehab it, but the connection seems to be there, and based on this discussion even if it takes a few minutes to get the train around it, it still avoids some bad spots on SEPTA, doesn't it?


I noticed the same thing looking at the air photos. Looks like you can run a diesel train (or even a steam engine) right down to 30th St., avoiding the Center City Tunnel entirely. On the other hand, by the time this happens, Amtrak will probably have dual-mode ICT sets and they may also have some interest in directly serving Center City, assuming SEPTA is willing.


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## Anderson (Dec 17, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I noticed the same thing looking at the air photos. Looks like you can run a diesel train (or even a steam engine) right down to 30th St., avoiding the Center City Tunnel entirely. On the other hand, by the time this happens, Amtrak will probably have dual-mode ICT sets and they may also have some interest in directly serving Center City, assuming SEPTA is willing.


The dual-modes are an interesting point - and I'd also note that, in theory, transit agencies could probably piggyback on this order with similar locomotive orders but different car options in between (e.g. commuter bilevels).


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## railiner (Dec 17, 2022)

Anderson said:


> So, funny thing...the Reading Railroad didn't join Amtrak. Now, it later got absorbed into Conrail, which probably muddles things a bit, but Reading itself didn't join.
> 
> This is not unlike why Amtrak never got down the FEC - I'd have been _stunned _if Amtrak wouldn't have opted to run trains down that line given the choice back in the 70s and 80s (directly picking up a string of towns along the coast plus the better station locations), but they didn't have the inherent right to do so since FEC had dropped its last pax train a few years before Amtrak was formed. The same thing crops up with ex-Rock Island routes - if the Rock Island had joined Amtrak, does anybody seriously think Amtrak _wouldn't _have tried to flip the California Zephyr over to serve Davenport and Des Moines instead of Burlington and Osceola?


Regarding The Rock...this might explain why...









 Rock Island’s Rockets


Peoria Rocket/Quad City Rocket Endpoints: Chicago-Rock Island, Illinois; Chicago-Peoria, Illinois Numbers: 5/6 (Quad City Rocket), 11/12 (Peoria Rocket) Intermediate Stations: Englewood, Blue Islan…




csanders429.wordpress.com





The Rock Island was not in very good shape by 1971. The Burlington Northern was. And the "Way of the Zephyr's, was always the most popular route between Chicago and Denver. Dealing with one less railroad was also perhaps a reason. If Amtrak wanted to tap the most populous routes, they would have switched to the UP between Omaha and Denver via Grand Island and North Platte, which they didn't...


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