# The Floridian and the AutoTrain



## dlagrua (Dec 1, 2010)

The year was 1977 and the AutoTrain company business was booming. Dr Eugene Garfield, the AT CEO decided that a midwesten route for the AutoTrain would be the next logical step in the companies expansion plans. Passenger traffic on the Lorton to Sanford run was exploding and it was time to grow the business. By this time Amtrak was well on its way to becoming the exclusive US passenger rail carrier and the AT company made a proposal to have the Floridian carry the AutoTrain from Louisville KY to Sanford Fl. The Floridain route originated in Chicago and headed South through Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Birminghan, through southern Georgia to Jacksonville and then want on the current AT route to Sanford.

This new AutoTrain proposal proved a disaster for both the Floridian and the AutoTrain Corporation. After only 8 months of operation the AT midwest route was abandoned. Shortly thereafter the AutoTrain Corporation declared bankruptsy and within two years the Floridan was also gone.

So why did this all happen?

First off the AutoTrain Corporation made arrangements for Amtrak to carry it. As a result Amtrak stopped running the Floridian into downtown Louisville Union station and instead diverted through a large frieght yard outside of town to pick up the AT consist. It posed problems and Amtrak lost ridership from Lousiville because of this. Secondly the switching operations now posed by the AutoTrain at Lousiville and Sanford added two hours to the already long schedule and made the Floridian perpetually late. Last of all the track conditions on the former L & N route had deteriorated to the point where a horrific derailment caused loss of much AutoTrains RR equipment. By the end of 1977 the AT midwest route was gone and Amtrak rerouted the Floridan through Atlanta as a final attempt to keep the route viable. The new route through caused more lack of ridership and eventually was abandoned. Within ayear of this AutoTrain corporation also ceased to exist.

The question remains as to whether the AT accomodation idea killed the Floridian or whether the reroute through Atlanta was the primary cause.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 1, 2010)

The Floridian had many problems. One of the worst was finding a way to get across Indiana It seems like every rail route across the state quickly fell into a state of disrepair during the 1970's. The Floridian was really a victim of the poor state of affairs in American railroading in the 1970's. It was always late, usually by hours, and reliability was one of the reasons it was on the Carter Cuts hit list. Even today, getting a train from Chicago to Indianapolis to Louisville would be a long, slow drag.


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## dlagrua (Dec 1, 2010)

MikefromCrete said:


> The Floridian had many problems. One of the worst was finding a way to get across Indiana It seems like every rail route across the state quickly fell into a state of disrepair during the 1970's. The Floridian was really a victim of the poor state of affairs in American railroading in the 1970's. It was always late, usually by hours, and reliability was one of the reasons it was on the Carter Cuts hit list. Even today, getting a train from Chicago to Indianapolis to Louisville would be a long, slow drag.


The Cardinal goes through Indianapolis to Chicago right now so I believe that the difficult part for recreating the Floridian route would be from Louisville Southward to Birmingham. Its really a shame that the Floridian/South Wind was discontinued. At one time it was a busy route.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 1, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> The year was 1977 and the AutoTrain company business was booming. Dr Eugene Garfield, the AT CEO decided that a midwesten route for the AutoTrain would be the next logical step in the companies expansion plans. Passenger traffic on the Lorton to Sanford run was exploding and it was time to grow the business. By this time Amtrak was well on its way to becoming the exclusive US passenger rail carrier and the AT company made a proposal to have the Floridian carry the AutoTrain from Louisville KY to Sanford Fl. The Floridain route originated in Chicago and headed South through Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Birminghan, through southern Georgia to Jacksonville and then want on the current AT route to Sanford.
> 
> This new AutoTrain proposal proved a disaster for both the Floridian and the AutoTrain Corporation. After only 8 months of operation the AT midwest route was abandoned. Shortly thereafter the AutoTrain Corporation declared bankruptsy and within two years the Floridan was also gone.
> 
> ...



The Floridian never went through Atlanta. It may have been re routed on some isolated incident because of a freight wreck, but believe me, I live here, and I would know if it ever came through Atlanta as a scheduled train.


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## dlagrua (Dec 1, 2010)

Bill: I gues that reroute through Atlanta was incorrect info. Here is the route as it existed. It wes a long 1600 mile route. Chicago

Illinois/Indiana border

118 miles (190 km) Lafayette

221 miles (356 km) Bloomington

Indiana/Kentucky border

330 miles (530 km) Louisville

438 miles (705 km) Bowling Green

Kentucky/Tennessee border

511 miles (822 km) Nashville

Tennessee/Alabama border

629 miles (1,012 km) Decatur

713 miles (1,147 km) Birmingham

810 miles (1,300 km) Montgomery

928 miles (1,493 km) Dothan

Alabama/Georgia border

1,020 miles (1,640 km) Thomasville

1,062 miles (1,709 km) Valdosta

1,122 miles (1,806 km) Waycross

Georgia/Florida border

1,193 miles (1,920 km) Jacksonville

1,303 miles (2,097 km) DeLand

1,319 miles (2,123 km) Sanford

1,336 miles (2,150 km) Winter Park

1,341 miles (2,158 km) Orlando

1,359 miles (2,187 km) Kissimmee

1,402 miles (2,256 km) Lakeland

1,433 miles (2,306 km) Tampa

1,456 miles (2,343 km) Clearwater

1,480 miles (2,380 km) St. Petersburg

1,251 miles (2,013 km) Waldo

1,297 miles (2,087 km) Ocala

1,323 miles (2,129 km) Wildwood

1,388 miles (2,234 km) Winter Haven

1,429 miles (2,300 km) Sebring

1,531 miles (2,464 km) West Palm Beach

1,549 miles (2,493 km) Delray Beach

1,560 miles (2,510 km) Deerfield Beach

1,574 miles (2,533 km) Fort Lauderdale

1,581 miles (2,544 km) Hollywood

1,601 miles (2,577 km) Miami

After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored servie to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .


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## Eric S (Dec 1, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored servie to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .


There was about a two decade gap between the end of the _Floridian_ and the beginning of the _Kentucky Cardinal_, which operated as a Chicago-Louisville section of the Chicago-Washington-New York _Cardinal_. Between Indianapolis (where the _Kentucky Cardinal_ split from the _Cardinal_) and Louisville, the _Kentucky Cardinal_ operated on tracks (belonging to Louisville & Indiana Railroad, I believe) with a top speed limit of something like 30mph.


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## dlagrua (Dec 1, 2010)

Eric S said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > After the Floridian died these was a Kentucy Cardinal; that restored service to Lousiville but it lasted only 6 years. I don't have any info on this route but at present both Lousiville and Nasville do not have any trains serving the city. .
> ...


The Kentucky Cardinal ran from 1998 to 2003. IMO it was an ill conceived plan to restore train service to Lousiville KY but you could only travel one way (North) toward Chicago. The only other connection might have been to the Cardinal at Indianpolis (if it ran that day).


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## AlanB (Dec 2, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > dlagrua said:
> ...


The K-Card wasn't really intended to restore train service to Louisville; that was more the excuse/after thought. The K-Card was started to pick up what Amtrak under George Warrington figured would be a lucrative Express Trak freight contract.

Yes, rail advocates loved the idea and were already making plans to extend the train south of Louisville. But again, the main reason that train started running was for the freight contract.

One good thing that did come out of it however was the Hoosier State. While it would be far more successful if there were two daily roundtrips on a better schedule, the Hoosier did not exist pre-Kentucky Cardinal. When the K-Card got cancelled, the Hoosier was born. Of course, part of the reason for the Hoosier is to play hospital train hauling cars to/from Beech Grove. But still, it is doing some halfway decent passenger service (33,000) considering the poor calling times in Indianapolis.


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## Eric S (Dec 2, 2010)

AlanB said:


> One good thing that did come out of it however was the Hoosier State. While it would be far more successful if there were two daily roundtrips on a better schedule, the Hoosier did not exist pre-Kentucky Cardinal. When the K-Card got cancelled, the Hoosier was born. Of course, part of the reason for the Hoosier is to play hospital train hauling cars to/from Beech Grove. But still, it is doing some halfway decent passenger service (33,000) considering the poor calling times in Indianapolis.


Actually, the _Hoosier State_ did exist as a separate train (with a different schedule than the _Cardinal_) until the big service cuts in the 1990s (maybe 1995?), when it was eliminated altogether. Then, as you mention, it was reinstated after the whole _Kentucky Cardinal_ thing. For instance: the Fall 1993 timetable shows Train 317 departing IND daily at 10:55am, arriving CHI 2:25pm (about 3 hours after the Cardinal); and Train 318 departing CHI 5:50pm, arriving IND 11:20pm (about 2 hours before the _Cardinal_).


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 2, 2010)

dlagrua said:


> Bill: I gues that reroute through Atlanta was incorrect info. Here is the route as it existed. It wes a long 1600 mile route. Chicago
> 
> Illinois/Indiana border
> 
> ...


I rode the South Wind/Floridian many times between 1965 under PRR/L&N/ACL/FEC and Amtrak. During the Amtrak era, I was a frequent rider. I can tell you that combining the Floridian with Auto train had nothing to do with the demise of the Floridian. Auto Train from South Louisville to Sanford ran as a seperate train for sometime. Passenger loads of the Floridian were decreasing due to unreliable schedules that started in 1972 before Autotrain and continued until the end. Trains were often tardy by as much as 12 hours. The northbound arrival into Chicago was sometimes between 2-3AM after all connections had left, most Amtrak employees had gone home and arriving passengers were left to their own devices. When Autotrain and the Floridian were combined it was a last ditch effort to save two dying trains. It didn't work.

I made my last trip on the Floridian northbound from Nashville to Chicago in the summer of 1979 in the sleeping car which was about half full. It still had a full diner and a lounge car. It was scheduled to leave Nashville about 5PM and arrive in Chicago at 7AM. We left Nashville on time and arrived in Chicago around 8:30AM. I miss the Floridian but most passengers didn't care for the frequently late schedules and very rough track through Indiana.


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## john owen (Mar 4, 2011)

As A former Auto Train employee at Louisville I can shed some light on this. Amtrak moved from Louisville Union Station because it was planning to be sold by the Louisville and Nashville Railroad and to eliminate the back in back out move to the Kand I T Terminal Railway tracks used to get to the Monon. The Amtrak mindset at the time was to avoid back in back out moves.

On time time keeping was far better on the Monon, once it was established as the detour route for the Penn Central Delima both into Union and the Auto Train Terminal for Amtrak. The Louisville ridership suffered because the new station for Amtraks was beyond the bus lines of TARC the city transit service.

The Penn Central situation was very bad before the Indianapolis to Louisville segment was abandoned. Slow orders and delays were the orer of the day and while service always ran on time Northbound into Louisville it was delayed southbound into Louisville and North of Louisville to Indianapolis.

Untill the schedule was changed southbound trains arrived Louisville Union Station via the Monon ahead of schedule.

When the Auto Train Amtrak service started trains were operating with one U 36 B locomotive of Auto Train in the lead, floowed by two Amtrak SDP 40fs with the Miami Section first, followed by the St Pete section of Amtrak, it was followed by the Auto train passenger cars then the Auto Racks and a rack caboose car. Full crews were operated of five men on all divisons between Louisville and Montgomery over Louisville and Nashville tracks.

The SDP 40 fs soon were embargoed on the L&N following a derailment in Tennessee so a new consept was adopted. One Amtrak E unit would bring the train down from Chicago to Lousville it would be turned for the trip north. There Auto train operated two U 36 B locomotives and a heater car followed by the combined trains consits as mentioned above. It was a smooth process and the long trains were no real problem as only Bowling Green, Decatur, Birmingham, Dothan and Waycross were station stops not offered by the stand alone operations before 1076. Crew changes were required at Nashville , Montgomery, Thomasville and Jackspnville for both the solo Auto Train and the Stand alone Floridian.


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## henryj (Mar 4, 2011)

dlagrua said:


> The Cardinal goes through Indianapolis to Chicago right now so I believe that the difficult part for recreating the Floridian route would be from Louisville Southward to Birmingham. Its really a shame that the Floridian/South Wind was discontinued. At one time it was a busy route.


The current Cardinal currently takes 8 hours and 32 minutes to go only 319 miles from Chicago to Cincinnati or an average speed of only 37.5mph. The Hoosier State takes over 5 hours to go less than 200 miles. I would think you need to fix this before you start trying to run a train all the way to Florida.


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## Doug (Jun 22, 2011)

The Floridian never ran through Atlanta. It maintained the same route south of Louisville for the duration. The final day of operation was October 8th, 1979. It actually was listed as discontinued on October 1st but due to an order from a federal judge, it kept on till the 8th. It was truly a shame to see it head south that very last day. The next day the papers released a picture of an old engineer looking out the window as the Miami section arrived for the last time. It is hard to imagine that the route of so many passenger trains to Florida would not be served by any at all in the end.


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## D Brown (Feb 12, 2012)

The Floridian never did reroute although it was considered to save it but no implemented. The Auto Train was gone by 1977, not started. It started around 1974. I remember seeing it running separately from the Floridian at first. It was later combined by 1977 and then gone soon after.


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 13, 2012)

Poor track, especially in Indiana, is what did in the Flordian. Penn Central was falling apart, literally.


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## xyzzy (Feb 13, 2012)

After discontinuance of the AT, the Floridian eventually operated with an F40/E8 combo and ran reliably south of Louisville. The train needed time to reestablish patronage from the very difficult period of the mid 1970s. Unfortunately the Carter administration was not in the mood to grant any time. A Floridian reequipped with HEP would probably have recovered, and the train might still be running today.


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## jphjaxfl (Feb 13, 2012)

The plan was to use Superliners on the Floridian. Some Superliner coaches that rolled off the production line early were demonstrated on the Floridian. I think Trains Magazine had picture /pictures of Superliners operating in Florida. If the tracks in Indiana could have been rehabbed to a reliable 9 hours from Chicago to Louisville and Superliners implemented, the train may have gained back passengers lost in the early 1970s.


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## john owen (Dec 6, 2013)

prior to the Auto Train starting its solo service to Louisville. I recall three Auto Track carriers at Louisville Union Station these cars were tacked on at Indianapolis for a trip south, they were pulled at Louisville because of the autos being dan\maged comming down the Penn Central. The final blow was the series of derailments on Penn Central the one at Seymour In was at 19 mph which lead to the FRA embargo of all Penn Central route, The Move to the Monon was a vast improvement it improved on time at Louisville

The abandonment of Union Station was a disaster Amtrak could have easily simply pulled through the Auto train terminal and coupled on. On many ocasions the L&N Passenger represenitive Bill Vaught would get on the train at DI tower in New Albany and passengers were discharged where the train went to K&I tracks near downtown. The Monon crews were much better than those of Penn Central in the manner they treated passengers as well. Gibb Young, Russell Cox , Burt and Ross Driscoll all great people

Other L&N crew were DL Abbey Tatum, Eddie Driscoll, DJ Lashlee, Larry Mc Kneese and Kenny Mc Whurter. AA Riley and Tom Price on the Louisville Divison, further south you had Wallace Saab, and Mr Buster Wainwright on the SCL.

These gentlemen took great pride n their jobs often dealing with over sold trains, hot coaches, They did their best for all aboard and all of us who rode the Floridian, remeber these folks well another great fellow was Don Mendez Dining Car Steward he was an old Coast Line before Amtrak.


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## Acela150 (Dec 6, 2013)

3 Year Old Topic..


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## Nathanael (Dec 6, 2013)

So here's a question: what's the state of the various possible Chicago - Southeast routes today? I know the Floridian was dropped largely due to lack of any routes where the track was in good enough shape to run at passenger speeds. Is that still the case? I count approximately four north-south routes through Kentucky and Tennessee (three CSX and one NS), but I have no idea what track speeds are on any of them.


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## Notelvis (Dec 6, 2013)

Part of the issue regarding ridership was the constant flipping of the Floridian's schedule. In the earliest Amtrak days it had a 2-day, 1-night schedule departing Chicago in the morning. As track conditions on the PC deteriorated and running time suffered, it was flipped to a 2-night schedule departing Chicago in the evening. When the joint operation with Auto-Train began, the schedule flipped back to the 2-day, 1-night pattern with a morning Chicago departure and a 6pm-ish Louisville departure. When the AT Louisville service was discontinued, Amtrak flipped the Floridian back to the 2-night schedule with an evening Chicago departure and a Louisville departure the next morning...... for the last year or two that the Floridian operated, Amtrak was the sole tenant of the Louisville Auto-Train station.

Please allow me to post some old photographs from my collection -

1) The southbound Floridian with SDP40 arriving at the Louisville Auto-Train Station - date uncertain







2) Shortly before the end...... Amtrak's Floridian with F40/E8 lashup await southbound departure from Louisville in August 1979.






3) Louisville Union Station sometime in the late 70's........ Amtrak has moved out, some track removal has taken place, TARC has not yet moved in.






4) And finally - the only photo I have of the combined Floridian/Auto-Train....... here it is southbound with AT power making the Amtrak station stop in DeLand, FL. I wish I had more and better photos BUT I was taking these shots when I was 14-16 years old. No car, no driver's license...... I was reliant on the kindness of family (which we had in the Louisville area) and friends (which we had in DeLand, FL) to get me to train stations. When I was there I would snap what I could get but usually my ride wouldn't want to wait around for trains running hours late or to watch the fascinating switching neccessary to combine the Floridian and AT in Louisville.........






5) Take that back - Here is a rare one....... I'll bet that I am the only person on AU who has an interior photograph of the Louisville Auto-Train Station cued up and ready. Here it is after AT quit and Amtrak was still (barely) there. This may have been on the same trip where I took the F40/E8 photo in August 1979. I was a kid and didn't have the sense to date my photos....... and as I played with them I re-arranged them by subject (ie - stations, steam excursions, passenger trains, freight trains, etc.) around in my carousels so they were not in any chronological order....

Special thanks b-t-w to AUer Tom Bedwell for his help in digitizing my collection of slides from the late 70's so that I could present this photographic essay!


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 6, 2013)

Nice Pics and Memories David! Thanks for Posting them! :hi: And I think Tom and You have a Great Collection of Old, Long Gone and Truely Missed Train Pics! I Didn't use a Camera Back in the Day, so All I have are Memories So I Really Enjoy Seeing these!


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## chrsjrcj (Dec 6, 2013)

Awesome pictures! Those are probably the best quality photos I've seen of the Floridian.


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## Notelvis (Dec 6, 2013)

Here are a few more Floridian pictures - northbound in and near New Albany, IN taken while visiting relatives in December either 1977 or 78. I wish that on the third one I had waited another two seconds before hitting the shutter..... I might have wound up with one for the ages.


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## MrFSS (Dec 6, 2013)

Notice gas is $.55 a gallon in the first picture? I remember when that was an exorbitant price!

Here is a Monon coming off that same bridge I took about 1957. Trains still use the bridge today.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 6, 2013)

Reminds me of making a model layout and being unable to fit the roads and tracks in, so just kind of making them all one in the same...


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## dlagrua (Dec 6, 2013)

Nice photo trip back in history. Thanks for sharing these with us. It only serves to show how nice things were back then and how nice they could be again. While there might be demand for a Midwest Autotrain and certainly there would be demand for a new Floridian; at this point we can only dream about it. The equipment necessary, funds to refurbish and re-establish the former Monon and L&N routes are just not there.


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## MrFSS (Dec 6, 2013)

ALC Rail Writer said:


> Reminds me of making a model layout and being unable to fit the roads and tracks in, so just kind of making them all one in the same...


Micah - the tracks were in the road there in New Albany because the train ran in the middle of the bridge with car lanes on each side.


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## FriskyFL (Dec 6, 2013)

Gotta love that street running!


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## xyzzy (Dec 6, 2013)

In terms of the route of the 1979 Floridian: the ex-L&N between Louisville and Montgomery remains capable of handling passenger trains at 70 mph. The ex-ACL between Montgomery and Waycross is unsignaled, and speed limits on some of it have fallen since 1979 -- but the line could probably be restored to 59 mph for passenger without undue expense until PTC is mandated (assuming it will be eventually). A chunk of the ex-Monon was abandoned.

It would be possible to bypass Montgomery and run Birmingham-Waycross direct. This line is fully signaled, shorter than the route through Montgomery, and could support passenger trains at 70. However it carries very heavy freight traffic and it has low online population. CSX would not be keen to add passenger trains to that route.

No route through Atlanta is operationally feasible for several reasons.

The former City of Miami route via Corinth, Birmingham, Columbus, and Albany has been broken by multiple abandonments.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 6, 2013)

MrFSS said:


> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Reminds me of making a model layout and being unable to fit the roads and tracks in, so just kind of making them all one in the same...
> ...


Gives a whole different perspective on the "RoW" lol...


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## Anderson (Dec 7, 2013)

I'm not going to quote the image because of size, but you have _no_ idea how strange it is to see the Deland station sans 35 years of vegetation growth. Next time I'm down there I will need to scramble off the Meteor (or Star) and snap a shot of the station from the same position just for comparison.


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## railiner (Dec 7, 2013)

MikefromCrete said:


> Poor track, especially in Indiana, is what did in the Flordian. Penn Central was falling apart, literally.


And yet, from a railfan point of view, it provided a great opportunity to ride over several segments that lost passenger service with the coming of Amtrak....

Between the Floridian and the Cardinal, (and their predecessor names), there were so many reroutes in search of better tracks.....

Got to ride south from Chicago via Kankakee, Danville, Logansport, Peru, etc..........


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## railiner (Dec 7, 2013)

Thanks to Notelvis for those wonderful photo's!

It is interesting seeing the Slumbercoach directly behind the engine.....I suppose the baggage car was in the rear? Was that the normal config., or just an anomaly?


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## WICT106 (Dec 7, 2013)

One also has to consider that Chicago - Florida and NEC - Florida are different markets. Because of the possible route configurations, the shortest rail route between Chicago and FL was 7 hours longer than the NYC/NEC - Florida route. Second, there is not as much of an affinity among Midwesterners for going to Florida. Many will go to southern AZ, or south TX, or elsewhere (some of us even enjoy ski trips, or activities such as ice skating). One also has to take into consideration that many people will immediately compare train travel time to drive time. In numerous parts of the US, a train would have to have an average speed of 60 mph in order to rival drive times on the Midwest. Hisotorically, many trains such as the C&NW _400,_ or the Burlington's _Zephyr,_ or the MILW _Hiawathas,_ had to attain speeds of 100 mph or greater in order to reach the average speed of 60 mph. The current schedule of CHI - DC - FL isn't that much slower than than several historical schedules between the Midwest and FL. Read through http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/ and note the speeds and travel times between the Midwest and FL.

Third, several of the larger midwestern cities are spread out, while the cities along the East Coast lines are all in a line. Historical train service would go fan out to St Louis, or KC, or CHI, or Michigan, upon reaching interchange cities such as Louisville or Memphis or Evansville IN, or Cincinnati.

Before one proposes service between the Midwest and FL one has to take these, and other, factors into consideration. I too would like to see service directly between the Midwest & FL, but I don't expect such service to be resurrected any time soon. I think I'll see service return through Madison WI before I'll see service between CHI and FL.


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## henryj (Dec 7, 2013)

xyzzy - I am curious why the route through Atlanta us considered to be not operationally feasible. Freight traffic can't be the reason as many existing passenger lines are full of freight traffic. I looked at the existing routes via CSX and NS and both seem feasible to me. But then I have no way of knowing the condition of the tracks. CSX shows a busy route through Danville, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga to Atlanta. NS has the "rat hole" which they have spent many millions on improving since the "Ponce De Leon/Royal Palm" days which runs from Cincinnati, Lexington, Chattanooga to Atlanta. Recent Trains Magazine articles and maps show these routes to be very busy with freight traffic, which I would think means they are in good shape. Both railroads have Atlanta to Jacksonville lines, either of which could be used. I don't see the old schedules of 23 hours as being feasible again, but I would think a 31/32 hour schedule (Chi to Jacksonville) would be feasible. It would also allow for a late evening departure from Chicago and Jacksonville thus connecting with the Star and the Meteor and serving both Atlanta, Chattanooga in daylight hours. Just curious. Of course we all know Amtrak has no money nor equipment to start up any long distance routes, nor the desire, so this is all just dreaming.


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## railiner (Dec 7, 2013)

WICT106 said:


> One also has to consider that Chicago - Florida and NEC - Florida are different markets. Because of the possible route configurations, the shortest rail route between Chicago and FL was 7 hours longer than the NYC/NEC - Florida route. Second, there is not as much of an affinity among Midwesterners for going to Florida. Many will go to southern AZ, or south TX, or elsewhere (some of us even enjoy ski trips, or activities such as ice skating). One also has to take into consideration that many people will immediately compare train travel time to drive time. In numerous parts of the US, a train would have to have an average speed of 60 mph in order to rival drive times on the Midwest. Hisotorically, many trains such as the C&NW _400,_ or the Burlington's _Zephyr,_ or the MILW _Hiawathas,_ had to attain speeds of 100 mph or greater in order to reach the average speed of 60 mph. The current schedule of CHI - DC - FL isn't that much slower than than several historical schedules between the Midwest and FL. Read through http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/ and note the speeds and travel times between the Midwest and FL.
> 
> Third, several of the larger midwestern cities are spread out, while the cities along the East Coast lines are all in a line. Historical train service would go fan out to St Louis, or KC, or CHI, or Michigan, upon reaching interchange cities such as Louisville or Memphis or Evansville IN, or Cincinnati.
> 
> Before one proposes service between the Midwest and FL one has to take these, and other, factors into consideration. I too would like to see service directly between the Midwest & FL, but I don't expect such service to be resurrected any time soon. I think I'll see service return through Madison WI before I'll see service between CHI and FL.


Several good points.....obviously the former Auto Train corporation did extensive research before concluding that Louisville was the place to make their northern terminal.

It was an easy day's drive from a wide radius of midwest population centers, as in the model of their Lorton terminal for the northeast. And it was close enough to the Sanford southern terminal to allow a similar journey length and need for trainsets....


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## WICT106 (Dec 7, 2013)

railiner said:


> WICT106 said:
> 
> 
> > One also has to consider that Chicago - Florida and NEC - Florida are different markets. Because of the possible route configurations, the shortest rail route between Chicago and FL was 7 hours longer than the NYC/NEC - Florida route. Second, there is not as much of an affinity among Midwesterners for going to Florida. Many will go to southern AZ, or south TX, or elsewhere (some of us even enjoy ski trips, or activities such as ice skating). One also has to take into consideration that many people will immediately compare train travel time to drive time. In numerous parts of the US, a train would have to have an average speed of 60 mph in order to rival drive times on the Midwest. Hisotorically, many trains such as the C&NW _400,_ or the Burlington's _Zephyr,_ or the MILW _Hiawathas,_ had to attain speeds of 100 mph or greater in order to reach the average speed of 60 mph. The current schedule of CHI - DC - FL isn't that much slower than than several historical schedules between the Midwest and FL. Read through http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/ and note the speeds and travel times between the Midwest and FL.
> ...


The Midwest transport market is different enough from the NE market by so much that the midwest railroads had left the Midwest - FL market by the early 1960s, while the East Coast railroads ran first class service up to the advent of Amtrak (in fact, SCL was rumered to be considering staying out of Amtrak, as their trains still made some money on a operating profit basis). While the auto train has been a success along the East Coast, the Louisville venture was such a failure that it contributed to the failure of the company. What I think happened is that many Midwesterners, once they reached Louisville, simply decided to continue driving onwards to their destination. Auto Train Corp lost $ 1.5 million in the first year of the Louisville operation (source: "Amtrak in the Heartland," P. 87 ), and found the effort to be a "financial black hole." (P. 87) Auto Train Corp ended their Louisville operations after only two years, in September 1977.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2013)

MrFSS said:


> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Reminds me of making a model layout and being unable to fit the roads and tracks in, so just kind of making them all one in the same...
> ...


Interesting fact: whether a train runs on the right or the left a two-track main often depends on which side of the road people drive on, because the roads often were combined with the railroad tracks in the early-to-mid-19th Century.


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## Notelvis (Dec 7, 2013)

railiner - I'm not sure what the regular consist configuration for the Floridian was as I saw it live and in person only a handful of times. I would imagine that it was uncommon for the slumbercoach to run up front and it may have been a case where a late arrival in Miami caused the train to depart northward without being turned.

Perhaps I'll pull out my old Passenger Train Journals which published the standard consist for Amtrak trains during those years.

As far as research by the old AT, I think it was a combination of factors including how close to Chicago they could get to a) be within a half-day drive of the customer base they sought and b) be able to turn the equipment for a same day southbound departure. Given that Louisville was as far north as the 'good track' went, there may have been some decision by default going on.

Tom....... those street lights in New Albany in 1957 were more attractive than what was there 20 years later I think!

Here is a photo taken of the street running the same day the slumbercoach was up front and you can see a baggage car (the one not stainless steel) on the rear of the train.






And how about one of the northbound Floridian arriving in Nashville...... this was on a separate visit (summertime) to the relatives where I rode the Floridian on a same day Louisville-Nashville RT just for fun....... had we had AGR back then it would have been a 'points run'.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 7, 2013)

Considering how many (currently conservative) states that a potential Floridian route would run through I don't think it has any more chance of being resurrected than the missing western LD routes.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 7, 2013)

More Great Pics and Memories David, Thanks for Posting! :hi: I Liked Slumber Coaches and used to ride in them from WAS-ATL Many Times on the Southern and Amtrak run Crescents! And 2 Dome Cars in the Consist!! :wub: I never saw more than One on the Old MoPac Eagles but of course the Western Trains like the Zephyrs and others out of CHI Sometimes ran with 4 or 5!!

(Tom has some Great Pics of this!!  )


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## xyzzy (Dec 7, 2013)

henryj said:


> xyzzy - I am curious why the route through Atlanta us considered to be not operationally feasible. Freight traffic can't be the reason as many existing passenger lines are full of freight traffic. I looked at the existing routes via CSX and NS and both seem feasible to me. But then I have no way of knowing the condition of the tracks. CSX shows a busy route through Danville, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga to Atlanta. NS has the "rat hole" which they have spent many millions on improving since the "Ponce De Leon/Royal Palm" days which runs from Cincinnati, Lexington, Chattanooga to Atlanta. Recent Trains Magazine articles and maps show these routes to be very busy with freight traffic, which I would think means they are in good shape. Both railroads have Atlanta to Jacksonville lines, either of which could be used. I don't see the old schedules of 23 hours as being feasible again, but I would think a 31/32 hour schedule (Chi to Jacksonville) would be feasible. It would also allow for a late evening departure from Chicago and Jacksonville thus connecting with the Star and the Meteor and serving both Atlanta, Chattanooga in daylight hours. Just curious. Of course we all know Amtrak has no money nor equipment to start up any long distance routes, nor the desire, so this is all just dreaming.


The first challenge is capacity from Chattanooga south. In the entire southeast, only Folkston is comparable to the tonnage that NS and CSX carry into Atlanta from the north. Both NS and CSX are at max capacity and have been for many years; that's why each railroad keeps an overflow route available (for NS, it's Chattanooga-Birmingham-Columbus-Macon; for CSX, it's via Birmingham or the Clinchfield). The second challenge is capacity from Atlanta south. NS has two routes but one of them is also at max capacity (due in part to frequent curves) while the other (ex-CofG) is not in physical shape to handle Amtrak. CSX has some capacity Atlanta-Manchester, but south of Manchester the traffic from Birmingham is added towards Waycross. Both railroads would fight tooth and nail to keep Amtrak off these lines. Pre-Amtrak when Southern and the L&N/SCL operated north-south passenger trains into Atlanta, the amount of freight passing north-south through Atlanta was a small fraction of what it is today.

The third challenge is the station. NS has been outspoken that it won't allow another passenger train into Peachtree Station because passenger trains tie up the mainline there. In addition, Peachtree sits on the Atlanta-Washington mainline, and Florida trains operating in and out of Peachtree would face a lengthy backup move that would irritate NS even more. The proposed new station in Atlanta would not make this problem go away entirely because it would also sit on the Atlanta-Washington mainline.


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## henryj (Dec 7, 2013)

Thanks


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## henryj (Dec 8, 2013)

As long as we are just dreaming here...........I see no reason to dream small. Run it through Atlanta. Build the new station. Pay the railroads what they want. Put in new capacity. Order the new equipment.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 8, 2013)

henryj said:


> As long as we are just dreaming here...........I see no reason to dream small. Run it through Atlanta. Build the new station. Pay the railroads what they want. Put in new capacity. Order the new equipment.


Amtrak is waiting on your Check Henry! :lol:


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## henryj (Dec 8, 2013)

LOL Jim. Even winning the lottery would not bring in enough money to do all that. We can't even get the Eagle into San Antonio smoothly.


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## rrdude (Dec 8, 2013)

Acela150 said:


> 3 Year Old Topic..


So what? Still some interesting crap......


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## George Harris (Dec 9, 2013)

After the mid-1950's the major midwest to Florida traffic by rail was the City of Miami / South Wind duo. The every third day Dixie Flagler died somewhere in here. These were all two days one night to Miami. Their schedules, particularly the South Wind and Dixie Flagler were wound pretty tight. In fact, I think that is why the Flagler died first. It's schedule was nearly impossible unless everything went perfectly or there was major bending of the speed limits, possibly both. At the advent of Amtrak, only the City of Miami remained as a through train, and it was in decline due to the decline of the ICG.

The two nights and two days trains were still reliable up until their end, but their declining passenger loadings made that meaningless. In fact, by the early 60's all the through slepers were gone, You had late evening departures from several places, such as Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland that got you into Cincinatti early morning, from which you took the Royal Palm to Jacksonville one day and one night to Jacksonville. Somewhere before 1960, the alternative Southland on the L&N dissapeared. The Southland had an advantage for those destined to West Coast (of Florida) points in that it did not go through Jacksonville. The day trains to Cincinatti and then on overnights to Altanta never did as well, mainly because it was evening again by the time you got to Jacksonville.

Since we can today do no better than the 1950ish trains, with much better roads today and the air service we have, there is little point in reintroducing Midwest to Florida service, much as I would like to see it.

It would probably be cheaper to upgrade track on some route between Chicago to Louisville so that the distance could again be done in about 6 hours and Montgomery to Waycross back to a 59 mph speed limit than it would be to do what it would take to be able to achieve the same run time via Atlanta, considering the amount of second main it would take for reliability and curve revisions or other line changes needed in the light that 6 inches superelevation is no longer practical with the high center of gravity of freight of today. Perhaps the best move would be to forget Louisville and do the upgrades on teh old C&EI-L&N between Chicago adn Nashville. Yes, this line is heavily freight trafficed, but it is fairly straight. We would be talking mainly about a lot of second main and additional or extended sidings, but the distance is shorter than via Louisville, about 450 miles via Evansville versus 490 miles via Louisville.

I often suspected that Amtrak added population of on-line cities to decide that the South Wind Route should be used instead of the City of Miami route. They should have looked at which one had the better ridership which was the City of Miami. However, even that may not have made a difference. I think the main thing that killed it was the detriorating condition of all lines involved. If they had gone the City of Miami route, everything north of Haleyville AL, where it went from trakage routes on the southern to ICG ownership was falling apart. For the South Wind route, that was everything north of Montgomery AL as that was either L&N or Penn Central.


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## henryj (Dec 9, 2013)

George, you make some good points. The only reason for a Chicago to Florida train through Atlanta is to serve Atlanta as it has no service to the Midwest or Florida. As for Chicago to Florida through traffic, that can go on the Capitol and the Silvers and make just as good time as a 32 hour Chicago to Jacksonville train. And in one of the Amtrak studies they talked about making the Capitol/Star a through train with only a connection to New York.


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## xyzzy (Dec 9, 2013)

The City of Miami also ran over a doomed ACL line between Albany and Waycross, 112 miles. It had very few online freight customers and no through freight, either, following Southern's acquisition of the Central of Georgia in 1962. I don't think SCL spent a penny to maintain it after 1971, and CSX eventually abandoned most of it in 1985. Even if Amtrak had originally chosen the City of Miami route instead of the South Wind, I doubt the City of Miami route could have been kept for long. In theory the train could have been rerouted Albany-Thomasville-Waycross, but Albany-Thomasville was a slow secondary line by that time (passenger trains down the Perry cutoff having been discontinued in 1957).

Columbus-Americus on the ex-CofG has been out of service for many years now, although the rails remain in place (I think).


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## George Harris (Dec 9, 2013)

xyzzy said:


> The City of Miami also ran over a doomed ACL line between Albany and Waycross, 112 miles. It had very few online freight customers and no through freight, either, following Southern's acquisition of the Central of Georgia in 1962. I don't think SCL spent a penny to maintain it after 1971, and CSX eventually abandoned most of it in 1985. Even if Amtrak had originally chosen the City of Miami route instead of the South Wind, I doubt the City of Miami route could have been kept for long. In theory the train could have been rerouted Albany-Thomasville-Waycross, but Albany-Thomasville was a slow secondary line by that time (passenger trains down the Perry cutoff having been discontinued in 1957).
> 
> Columbus-Americus on the ex-CofG has been out of service for many years now, although the rails remain in place (I think).


And that is only part of it. Fulton KY south was also getting in bad shape. Even in 1962 Fulton to Jackson TN was really rough riding. Can't say for south of there. But all this was sold off by ICG eventually. That which remains north of Russleville AL no longer has signals. (Russelville south was on trackage rights Southern to Jasper AL then Frisco the rest of the way to B'ham. That part was and is in reasonably good condition, but was anything but fast, being one curve after another.)


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## railiner (Dec 9, 2013)

One thing that I recall in the era just prior to Amtrak, in comparing the City of Miami, with the South Wind.....

In the last few years of its existence, the City was under the inspired direction of Illinois Central's director of passenger service, Paul H. Reistrup, (who later was chosen to head Amtrak). The South Wind was under the cloud of the notorious Penn Central..... :unsure:


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 9, 2013)

George Harris said:


> After the mid-1950's the major midwest to Florida traffic by rail was the City of Miami / South Wind duo. The every third day Dixie Flagler died somewhere in here. These were all two days one night to Miami. Their schedules, particularly the South Wind and Dixie Flagler were wound pretty tight. In fact, I think that is why the Flagler died first. It's schedule was nearly impossible unless everything went perfectly or there was major bending of the speed limits, possibly both. At the advent of Amtrak, only the City of Miami remained as a through train, and it was in decline due to the decline of the ICG.
> 
> The two nights and two days trains were still reliable up until their end, but their declining passenger loadings made that meaningless. In fact, by the early 60's all the through slepers were gone, You had late evening departures from several places, such as Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland that got you into Cincinatti early morning, from which you took the Royal Palm to Jacksonville one day and one night to Jacksonville. Somewhere before 1960, the alternative Southland on the L&N dissapeared. The Southland had an advantage for those destined to West Coast (of Florida) points in that it did not go through Jacksonville. The day trains to Cincinatti and then on overnights to Altanta never did as well, mainly because it was evening again by the time you got to Jacksonville.
> 
> ...


Good read, George,as usual.

Expand on the Dixie Flagler. It was renamed the Dixieland Dec 1954 and discontinued November 1957 It was given new pullmans and coaches,but diner and lounges stayed the same.

The west coast cars of the Southland ware discontinued about the same time You could still ride it Cincinnati to JAX in conjunction with the Dixie Flyer via Atlanta..

It was too, too bad for the Dixieland and the Southland to be discontinued. But the railroads made lemonade out of the lemons and put Chicago to west coast through coaches and pullmans on the South WInd and the City of Miami.via JAX This meant the South Wind got some of the new three year old cars from the DIxie Land.

In otherwords from winter 1957 on the South Wind and the City of Miami operated each every other day and had through coaches and pullmsns in this way:

Chicago to Miami

Chicago to St Petersburg

Chicago to Tampa Sarasota

Service from Chicago to the west coast cities was faster under the streamliners than it had been avoiding JAX on the Southland

In my child's mind the Dixei Flagler and/or Dixieland did a beautiful job of running on time as did the Georgian. I have reard that the South WInd had time keeping problems but I rarely saw it,as I lived in Chattanooga. The Georgian started running late when they started combining it with the Chicago section of the Humming Bird.

One time, for sure, my sister and I left Nashville on the DixieLand 20- minutes late and came to a stop in Chattanooga at straight up and down on time. Once I saw the northbound Dixieland arrive Chattanooga 20 minutes early from Atlanta.

And of course I did a lot of just train watching without riding.

One thing I think is very true that all three of them had about a four hour turn around in Miami so all had lateness problem back in 1940 when they were first put in service.

I sort of think the reason for the Dixie FLagler/Dixeland going out first it that it was slower then the others to get complete streamlined sleepers in the winter.. Keep in mind that all three of them were originlally all coach streamliners.


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## Nathanael (Dec 9, 2013)

George Harris said:


> After the mid-1950's the major midwest to Florida traffic by rail was the City of Miami / South Wind duo. The every third day Dixie Flagler died somewhere in here. These were all two days one night to Miami. Their schedules, particularly the South Wind and Dixie Flagler were wound pretty tight. In fact, I think that is why the Flagler died first. It's schedule was nearly impossible unless everything went perfectly or there was major bending of the speed limits, possibly both.


Interesting -- on a map it looks like the shortest route. Must be a lot more curves and/or grades on that route than on the routes through Birmingham...



> I think the main thing that killed it was the detriorating condition of all lines involved.


Certainly. Which led me to my question: what is the current condition of the various lines involved? The ones which weren't ripped out entirely have often been improved since the dark days of the Penn Central, but how much?
Xyzzy has answered some of my questions -- thank you xyzzy. Sounds like anything would require substantial investment, probably from the state of Georgia.... so extremely unlikely. (Incidentally, the proposed very-expensive *downtown* Atlanta station would solve the station problem, but that project seems to be going nowhere.)


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 10, 2013)

As always it's Great to get Info from Bill and George who are Storehouses of Knowledge about Old Days Southern Trains and Routes! We'll Never see their Like Again!  But Somethings Wrong when a Major City like Atlanta has Only Two Passenger Trains a Day! (The Crescents)


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## ALC Rail Writer (Dec 10, 2013)

henryj said:


> LOL Jim. Even winning the lottery would not bring in enough money to do all that. We can't even get the Eagle into San Antonio smoothly.


Actually if we did all collectively buy Powerball tickets and got a prize (after taxes) of $250 million we could probably convince Amtrak to issue all of us lifetime rail passes in exchange for the prize money. That, or we could pay for the subsidy to run a LD route or two for awhile next time they get threatened...

Speaking of gambling with easy fiat money: wonder if Amtrak ever thought of letting the QuickTrak's mine bitcoin in the background...


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## cirdan (Dec 10, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> As always it's Great to get Info from Bill and George who are Storehouses of Knowledge about Old Days Southern Trains and Routes! We'll Never see their Like Again!  But Somethings Wrong when a Major City like Atlanta has Only Two Passenger Trains a Day! (The Crescents)


 Cities like Houston or Cincinnati get less than that even. So in a perverse way Atlanta can even consider itself lucky.


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 10, 2013)

The South Wind did fairly well until it was combined with the Pan American from Louisville to Montgomery in the Fall of 1969 with only a 2 coach plus lounge car connection to and from Chicago. I went to college in Southern Indiana near Louisville from 1966 to 1971. When I started, there were still 3 daily passenger trains each way from Cincinnati through Louisville to Montgomery plus the every other day South Wind. I was on a train mostly every weekend.The South wind was $1.00 more expensive because of the seat charge than was on the Pan American, Hummingbird or Lonesome Local, but it was worth it. There was only 1 flag stop at Bowling Green between Louisville and Nashville and tracks up Muldraugh Hill were in decent shape so the SW would fly. The SW also had much better Dining Car than the Pan American and in the winter a Dome Car. Often times on a South wind trip to Nashville or Birmingham, I would spend more in the Dining Car and Bar Lounge than on the train ticket. By the time I left, Louisville in 1971, the only train still running was Amtrak's South Wind.


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## xyzzy (Dec 10, 2013)

The L&N from Cincinnati to New Orleans remained in good shape for passenger trains as the Azalean, the Hummingbird, the Crescent, the Gulf Wind, and finally the Pan American were discontinued. The line got a bad rap because of SDP40F derailments in the mid-1970s, but it was simply a curvy line that SDP40F was unsuited for at high speeds.


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## George Harris (Dec 10, 2013)

jphjaxfl said:


> The South Wind did fairly well until it was combined with the Pan American from Louisville to Montgomery in the Fall of 1969 with only a 2 coach plus lounge car connection to and from Chicago. I went to college in Southern Indiana near Louisville from 1966 to 1971. When I started, there were still 3 daily passenger trains each way from Cincinnati through Louisville to Montgomery plus the every other day South Wind. I was on a train mostly every weekend.The South wind was $1.00 more expensive because of the seat charge than was on the Pan American, Hummingbird or Lonesome Local, but it was worth it. There was only 1 flag stop at Bowling Green between Louisville and Nashville and tracks up Muldraugh Hill were in decent shape so the SW would fly. The SW also had much better Dining Car than the Pan American and in the winter a Dome Car. Often times on a South wind trip to Nashville or Birmingham, I would spend more in the Dining Car and Bar Lounge than on the train ticket. By the time I left, Louisville in 1971, the only train still running was Amtrak's South Wind.


If I recall correctly, when or maybe before the combination occurred, the South Wind was no longer a through train out of Chicago. Chicago to Louisville was a connecting train, no sleepers and maybe coaches only, operated by Penn Central. When the combination was made, the Pan American was moved to the South Wind's schedule. I think Cincinatti to Louisville was also a coaches only connection, so the through Pan American ran between Louisville and New Orleans, having through equipment to Miami for the South Wind every other day between Louisville and Montgomery. the Gulf Wind was combined with the Pan at Flomaton, but the Gulf Wind had never, or at least for a long time, been on its own between new Orleans and Flomaton. This arrangement lasted until A-day.


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 10, 2013)

As I mentioned when the South Wind was combined with the Pan American between Louisville and Montgomery, the Penn Central connection from Chicago to Louisville. The Pan American ran from Cincinnati to New Orleans with a 10/6 Sleeper, Counter Lounge Dining Car and coaches. At Louisville, the PA would pick up an SCL Sleeper and 2 coaches every other day. The Sleeper and 1 coach went to Miami and the other coach went to St. Pete via the old ACL route via Gainesville and Clearwater by passing Tampa. The combined PA/SW left Louisville about 4:30 PM so a little later than the SW, but several hours later than the PA. The northbound combined train arrived Louisville around 2:30PM. The PA got to Cincinnati around 5:45pm. The traffic on the South wind died without the through service, but came back after A day when the daily through South Wind with Sleepers, full diner, lounge car and coaches including domes returned. Unfortunately, the PC tracks deteriorated quick so trains ran very late and patronage dropped off dramatically. Through Chicago-Florida service through the mid South will never return.


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## George Harris (Dec 12, 2013)

Concerning City of Miami Route: Somehow I had a brain spasm. The town where ICRR went onto Southern on its way to Birmingham was Haleyville. I have no idea where Russelville came from.

The route was:

ICRR main, Chicago to Fulton KY

ICRR branch to Jackson TN

ICRR trackage rights on GM&O Jackson TN to Corinth MS

ICRR back on their own track, Corinth MS to Haleyville AL

ICRR trackage rights on Southern Haleyville AL to Jasper AL

ICRR trackage rights on Frisco, Jasper AL to Birmingham AL

At Birmingham it was turned over to the Central of Georgia from there to Albany GA.

At Albany it was turned over to the ACL.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 12, 2013)

George Harris said:


> Concerning City of Miami Route: Somehow I had a brain spasm. The town where ICRR went onto Southern on its way to Birmingham was Haleyville. I have no idea where Russelville came from.
> 
> The route was:
> 
> ...


And at Jacksonville it was turned into FEC so much discussed these daysl


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## railiner (Dec 12, 2013)

Fortunately, it was ticketed as "IC" all the way from Chicago to Birmingham. Otherwise, what a nightmare of coupons would be necessary for a thru trip, or worse, a roundtrip....


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## George Harris (Dec 17, 2013)

It was still a multi part ticket:

ICRR - Chicago-Birmingham

CofG - Birmingham-Albany GA

ACL - Albany-Jacksonville

Then the South Wind:

Pennsy - Chicago-Louisville

L&N - Louisville-Montgomery AL

ACL - Montgomery-Jacksonville

Then the Dixie Flagler:

C&EI - Chicago-Evansville IN

L&N - Evansville-Nashville

NC&StL - Nashville-Atlanta

AB&C - Atlanta-Jesup GA

ACL - Jesup-Jacksonville

(to count the AB&C as separate may not be valid, as it was ACL owned for most or all the time the train operated)

This last route is the only one that still has all the track in place.


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## xyzzy (Dec 17, 2013)

The Dixie Flagler (in 1948, at least) ran Atlanta-Manchester-Waycross on the AB&C and then onto Jacksonville, not via Jesup. ACL purchased the remainder of the AB&C and assimilated it in 1946.

There was a Southern train at one time that ran Atlanta-Macon-Jesup-Everett and then the SAL into Jacksonville; there may have been one that ran Atlanta-Macon-Jesup and then the ACL into Jacksonville.


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## Notelvis (Dec 17, 2013)

railiner said:


> Thanks to Notelvis for those wonderful photo's!
> 
> It is interesting seeing the Slumbercoach directly behind the engine.....I suppose the baggage car was in the rear? Was that the normal config., or just an anomaly?


Just revisiting this thread wondering about the slumbercoach being up front in one of those series of Floridian pictures I took around 1977 or 1978 -

Might that be a case where, with the train having separate sections for Miami and St. Petersburg, that there were sleepers on either end of the train as is now the case with the Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited? Still doesn't explain having the baggage car on the rear though.


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## railiner (Dec 17, 2013)

Notelvis said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks to Notelvis for those wonderful photo's!
> ...


Another possibility was the baggage car might have developed a mechanical defect on that trip requiring it being set out enroute.....anything is possible......


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 17, 2013)

George Harris said:


> It was still a multi part ticket:
> 
> ICRR - Chicago-Birmingham
> 
> ...



And FEC from Jacksonville to Miami


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## George Harris (Dec 18, 2013)

Yes, FEC south of Jacksonville. From Jacksonville south they were all the same. North of Jacksonville the only common station was Nashville between the South Wind and Dixie Flagler and Waycross between the Dixie Flagler and the City of Miami (not sure about that last common point) I do know the South Wind had a different stop in Waycross. At the other common points, Birmingham and Chicago, they used different stations.


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## xyzzy (Dec 18, 2013)

Yes, the site of the station in Waycross required the South Wind to make a backup move. ACL tired of this and in 1951 built a small "Oklahoma Avenue" station just west of the switch leading to Jacksonville. The South Wind and later the Floridian used the Oklahoma Avenue stop. The Waycross station remained in use for other passenger trains until all of them were either discontinued or rerouted via Nahunta (or on the ex-SAL, for a while) to bypass Waycross. The building was renovated in the 1990s as office space.


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