# Penn Station NYC to Niagara Falls Canada on Jul-2-10



## JoanieBlon (Jul 8, 2010)

After having experienced a VERY distressing trip on Amtrak from Penn Station NYC to Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada, I felt compelled to send a letter of complaint to Amtrak. If I get any reply from them, I'll post it here.

*I am writing regarding an assortment of problems that my husband and I experienced on our train trip from Penn Station NYC to Niagara Falls Ontario Canada on July 2, 1010.*

* *

*My husband and I had never traveled by train into Canada before this trip. When we arrived at Penn Station, we were totally unaware that there would be a separate line to check in those passengers who would be crossing over the border into Canada. It would be MOST helpful if some mention of this could be included in the email reservation confirmation.*

* *

*We originally got into the LONG, chaotic line for domestic travel only, but eventually discovered that we were in the wrong line.*

* *

*When our tickets and passports were checked by Amtrak personnel and our bags were tagged, we were told to go down the escalator and turn to the right. We showed our tickets two more times to Amtrak staff, only to learn when we got to the Coach car that was being loaded, that we should have turned to the LEFT to go to our Business Class seats. When we asked why we werent sent in the proper direction when we repeatedly presented our tickets to Amtrak personnel, we were told, Oh, we dont actually look at your tickets, its up to YOU to tell US if youre traveling in Business Class. How on earth would we KNOW that?*

* *

*When we finally boarded in the Business Class section, we discovered that all of the REAL Business Class type seats ~ the thickly padded leatherette ones with a divider between the seats that recline and have a leg rest ~ were completely full and we were forced to sit in seats in a car marked Business Class that looked just like regular Coach seats to us.*

* *







* *






* *

*We purchased Business Class seating because we wanted the upgraded seats for our rather long, 9+ hours trip. Neither my husband nor I drink coffee, tea, soda or milk, so we didnt get any benefit from the complimentary beverages from the Café car. We purchased our Business Class seats on April 14, 2010 ~ far in advance of our trip ~ so we thought that we would be entitled to actual Business Class seating, even though individual seats arent assigned.*

* *

*In addition to the plain, Coach style seats, we encountered another extreme problem that added to our discomfort. The temperature control for the car we were in could not be regulated. Our car was SO cold that almost all the passengers in the car made complaints to the Assistant Conductor about the problem. He said he couldnt do anything about the temperature ~ either the system was ON or OFF. As a passenger behind us aptly put it, it was like being in a meat locker! I would guess that the temperature in the car was in the 50s F. Each time we made a stop, wed all pile out to warm up. I ended up getting a bathrobe from my luggage to use as a makeshift blanket. Other passengers were bundled up with whatever they could use to try to keep warm. It was ABSURD.*

* *

*Finally the gentleman who staffed the Café car turned the air handler system off, but by this time, we were almost at our destination.*

* *

*We had several other problems which I know Amtrak has very little control over, but Ill mention them, because they added to the discomfort of this trip for us.*

* *

*The restrooms (two of them in our car) were absolutely DISGUSTING by about 2 hours into the trip. I know that Amtrak cant prevent people from being outright pigs, but it would be helpful if staff could routinely do a check of the toilet facilities and do some cleaning up, if required. Even my husband was complaining about people urinating all over the seats, seat lids and floors.*

* *

*Immigration and Customs in Niagara Falls was difficult. ALL the passengers who were on the train were required to take their luggage and get off ~ even the ones who were traveling through to Canadian destinations beyond Niagara Falls Ontario. Some of the passengers took a VERY long time to get off the train, which really slowed the process of checking them, and the train. After we were checked inside the Immigration/Customs building, we were forced to go outside and stand in a rather small, roped off area until ALL of the passengers were cleared and the train itself was checked. It was sunny, but rather hot, and standing still for over an hour while in a very confined space crammed with all the passengers and all their luggage was quite uncomfortable. One can only wonder if this same system will be used when its raining or when the temperatures are below freezing.*

* *

*My husband and I have made it our personal goal to travel ALL of the Amtrak routes in the USA. If this trip had been our first, we probably wouldnt be interested in traveling again on Amtrak. The whole experience left a lot to be desired from beginning to end.* :angry2:


----------



## amamba (Jul 8, 2010)

Joanie I am sorry to hear of your bad experience. The staff in NYP should have been helpful, and I would have been just as upset as you were with the frigid temperatures and the cattle corral at the border.

However, I would like to point out that the pictures of the coach you posted look like a standard NEC business class car. Those are the kinds that are used on all of the NE regionals. I am not sure about the stock that is generally used on the route you traveled, but again, that car appears to be standard BC class. I know that the leather 2-1 seating cars are used on the Downeaster, not sure what other routes they are used on. Perhaps some other members of the forum can chime in on this one.


----------



## Choo Choo (Jul 8, 2010)

NYC Penn is a crazy place. When it is cattle call boarding time, all bets are off.

Amtrak cars are always freezing in the summer. Dress appropriately.

Crossing the US/Canadian border is never fun nowadays. Same drawn out procedure on the NYP-Montreal route, but at least there you can stay on the train.


----------



## Dovecote (Jul 8, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your horrible trip. There were certainly a number of events that could have been avoided if the Amtrak staff was on the ball. My wife and I were on the Mapleleaf several years ago and we experienced the exact same problem with the air conditioning. The conductor said we were lucky that the AC was working! We had to wrap ourselves with beach blankets to keep warm! Good luck with getting a response from Amtrak. I would also call Customer Relations and verbally discuss the matter as well. They do listen and will most likely send you a transportation voucher for future travel.


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

:hi: Sorry about your misadventure, good advice to call Amtrak Customer Relations,letters usually get a form letter answer even though they read them! I have ridden the Maple Leaf several times from NYP to Toronto and never had to get off the train to be checked, it's unclear if this was Canadian immigration/customs, usually they make you stay on the train until everyone has been checked/cleared! Since it was a Holiday weekend perhaps all the Business class seats were sold in the regular business/cafe car that runs on this route and does have leather seating etc.

No excuse for the apprentice stormtroopers in NYP and the A/C thing seems to be a real problem for Amtrak lately but the conductors and OBS have no business telling pax that there's nothing they can do??  Please provide all the details when you call,CR is very good about following through and as the previous poster said you should get an apology and a nice voucher for future travel!  :help:


----------



## LA Resident (Jul 9, 2010)

amamba said:


> Joanie I am sorry to hear of your bad experience. The staff in NYP should have been helpful, and I would have been just as upset as you were with the frigid temperatures and the cattle corral at the border.
> 
> However, I would like to point out that the pictures of the coach you posted look like a standard NEC business class car. Those are the kinds that are used on all of the NE regionals. I am not sure about the stock that is generally used on the route you traveled, but again, that car appears to be standard BC class. I know that the leather 2-1 seating cars are used on the Downeaster, not sure what other routes they are used on. Perhaps some other members of the forum can chime in on this one.


I've taken BC on the Missouri River Runner and the Horizon-equipment Pacific Surfliner (single level), and the BC seating has been the luxurious two-and-one, which I think Alan said are old Metroliner first-class seats refurbished and put into Horizon BC/Cafe cars. I have also followed the advice of several on this forum not to book a BC ticket on Amfleet trains because the seating is just like what you experienced on the Northeast Corridor, the two-and-two seating which doesn't seem much different from the regular coach.

Someone posted a topic earlier this week asking if BC was worth the extra money on the Northeast corridor. From the OP's experience, I guess the answer is NO.

If this info is not correct, I'm confident that several will put forth the correct info. Thanks.


----------



## amtrakwolverine (Jul 9, 2010)

Don't know why you had to get off the train. When the train arrives at Niagara Falls Canada you must remain seated while they come on board and inspect the train. No one is allowed on or off. I guess they changed things now.


----------



## JoanieBlon (Jul 9, 2010)

amtrakwolverine said:


> Don't know why you had to get off the train. When the train arrives at Niagara Falls Canada you must remain seated while they come on board and inspect the train. No one is allowed on or off. I guess they changed things now.


The narrow platform space between the yellow "danger" crosshatches and the buildings shown on the YouTube video was where we were all crammed into. We were not allowed into the entire space ~ just there area between the entrance door into the interior and the end of the building. 
When we exited the building, we were told that if we were staying in Niagara Falls that we should stand in the area towards the end of the building and if we were continuing on that we should stand at the other end. <_< After awhile, this became almost impossible, as there were so many people and bags crammed into the space that we were all sort of mingling together.

I have no complaints about the Canadian immigration officers. They were pleasant and straightforward. It was just the set up of the system that left a lot to be desired. If everyone had to exit the train and it was raining, there would be NO WAY that all the passengers could fit into the Immigration/Customs office there. hboy:


----------



## JoanieBlon (Jul 9, 2010)

amamba said:


> Joanie I am sorry to hear of your bad experience. The staff in NYP should have been helpful, and I would have been just as upset as you were with the frigid temperatures and the cattle corral at the border.
> 
> However, I would like to point out that the pictures of the coach you posted look like a standard NEC business class car. Those are the kinds that are used on all of the NE regionals. I am not sure about the stock that is generally used on the route you traveled, but again, that car appears to be standard BC class. I know that the leather 2-1 seating cars are used on the Downeaster, not sure what other routes they are used on. Perhaps some other members of the forum can chime in on this one.


The Cafe car attendant said he had been doing this route on Amtrak for over 22 years and he had NEVER seen that type of "Business Class" car attached to the train until about 3 weeks ago. He wondered outloud, if Amtrak was now adding this car to the Maple Leaf in order to sell more Business Class seating during the heavy summer travel season on the route.
Just in front of our car was the one that was part leather 2-1 Business Class seating combined with the Cafe. Several of the passengers who were in OUR Business Class car apparently have traveled this route quite a bit and were very upset that they did not get the standard Business Class seating (one of them kept referring to the "Lazy Boy" recliners) they were accustomed to.


----------



## MDRailfan (Jul 9, 2010)

Has anyone taken the Adirondack recently to verify whether you detrain at customs or stay on the train and the seperate line at NYP. I am going in three weeks and connecting from a different train. Also do you know what gates/tracks the Adirondack leaves from in my connecting train is late and I have to run for it. If not would the conductor know or find out for me? Thanks for any further information on the subject.


----------



## JoanieBlon (Jul 9, 2010)

> The restrooms (two of them in our car) were absolutely DISGUSTING by about 2 hours into the trip. I know that Amtrak can’t prevent people from being outright pigs, but it would be helpful if staff could routinely do a check of the toilet facilities and do some cleaning up, if required. Even my husband was complaining about people urinating all over the seats, seat lids and floors.


BTW ~ as a result of the filty conditions caused by inconsiderate slobs on this train, my husband emphatically announced that he will NEVER do an overnight trip unless we are in a bedroom with a private toilet, as we have had for our two overnight trips thus far. No Roomettes for us. :blush: :unsure:


----------



## Choo Choo (Jul 9, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> > The restrooms (two of them in our car) were absolutely DISGUSTING by about 2 hours into the trip. I know that Amtrak can’t prevent people from being outright pigs, but it would be helpful if staff could routinely do a check of the toilet facilities and do some cleaning up, if required. Even my husband was complaining about people urinating all over the seats, seat lids and floors.
> 
> 
> BTW ~ as a result of the filty conditions caused by inconsiderate slobs on this train, my husband emphatically announced that he will NEVER do an overnight trip unless we are in a bedroom with a private toilet, as we have had for our two overnight trips thus far. No Roomettes for us. :blush: :unsure:



Bathrooms in coach can get pretty nasty. God forbid it is crowded and there is a problem with the equipment.

In the sleeping cars, I have always found the bathrooms to be pretty clean. Maybe they get less use, or maybe the sleeping car passengers tend to be more sanitary.


----------



## amamba (Jul 9, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> > The restrooms (two of them in our car) were absolutely DISGUSTING by about 2 hours into the trip. I know that Amtrak can’t prevent people from being outright pigs, but it would be helpful if staff could routinely do a check of the toilet facilities and do some cleaning up, if required. Even my husband was complaining about people urinating all over the seats, seat lids and floors.
> 
> 
> BTW ~ as a result of the filty conditions caused by inconsiderate slobs on this train, my husband emphatically announced that he will NEVER do an overnight trip unless we are in a bedroom with a private toilet, as we have had for our two overnight trips thus far. No Roomettes for us. :blush: :unsure:


Viewliner roomettes do have individual toilets in the room. These are the single level cars used on the silver service, LSL, cardinal, etc.

That is too bad about the 2-1 seating. I would guess that the hunch that amtrak added the low capacity amfleet car as a BC car on that route is for additional revenue in the summer. Plus the coaches that are half BC/half lounge don't really offer many BC seats at all, so they may have noticed high demand and thus added the extra car. Too bad. That being said, I don't think amtrak in any way guarantees the type of car/coach that will be used for BC and I'm not sure if you will be able to get any recourse from customer relations on that one. But feel free to try as the experience was not up to your expectations. So on your train, you had the half BC/half cafe car AND that amfleet BC car? Interesting.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (Jul 9, 2010)

Never did understand why Amtrak doesn't put up an sign in the bathroom asking people to sit down when using the toilet. There are an few funny one that I have seen, both on-line and in real bathrooms. :blush:

So if the AC only had an on/off switch that work. You turn it off when it too cold, turn it back on when you got too warm.

Ok I be ask too much.


----------



## JoanieBlon (Jul 9, 2010)

> So on your train, you had the half BC/half cafe car AND that amfleet BC car? Interesting.


Yes ~ We had 1-1/2 cars of Business Class. Both cars were FULL for most of the trip. The Cafe attendant had trouble keeping track which folks were Business Class, and were therefore eligible for the comped beverages.


----------



## JoanieBlon (Jul 9, 2010)

> Viewliner roomettes do have individual toilets in the room. These are the single level cars used on the silver service, LSL, cardinal, etc.


On the western Superliner trips we have been on so far, the "Roomettes" did not have toilets. Perhaps they do on some of the eastern trains, but I think we will always be opting for bedroom accomodations irregardless of the type of train we travel on if it involves overnight travel. 








> Our Superliner Roomette is ideal for one or two passengers, with two comfortable reclining seats on either side of a big picture window. At night, the seats convert to a comfortable bed, and an upper berth folds down from above. Roomettes are located on both upper and lower levels of our double-decker Superliner train cars.
> Meals included; Picture window; Two reclining seats which convert to a bed; Upper berth which folds down from wall - Available on both upper and lower levels of the Superliner; *No in-cabin toilet or shower*; Restrooms & showers nearby in same train car; Electrical outlets; Climate control; Individual reading lights; Garment rack; Fold-down table; Fresh towels and bed linens; Soap and shower amenities; Personal service (turn-down, coffee, paper, make-up bed); Bottled water; Daily newspaper.


----------



## amamba (Jul 9, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> On the western Superliner trips we have been on so far, the "Roomettes" did not have toilets. Perhaps they do on some of the eastern trains, but I think we will always be opting for bedroom accomodations irregardless of the type of train we travel on if it involves overnight travel.


Yes what you just posted is accurate for the *superliner *trains. You will note that I specifically mentioned that the toilets were only available in the *Viewliner* roomettes and noted that those were the single level cars on the Eastern Trains 

But I don't blame you for wanting a bedroom, they are much more spacious! I definitely think they are worth the extra $$ for the extra space.

Again, I am sorry you had such a miserable experience. I think we can all agree that amtrak has much that they need to improve upon.


----------



## JoanieBlon (Jul 9, 2010)

My husband and I will be doing several day trips (no overnight) through Italy in October, so I'm curious as to how their trains will stack up against Amtrak. We also are looking at traveling Ontario to Montreal on Canadian Rail and also possibly Montreal to Vancouver as well..... ^_^


----------



## arrow3 (Jul 9, 2010)

Doesn't the Maple Leaf use Amfleet II coaches? I would think that the Amfleet II coach is equal to or better than the Amfleet I business class. I would definitely been unhappy.

I traveled on the Maple Leaf from NYP to Niagara Falls, ON about 2 years ago in business class. They did have the "club" seating (2-1) with the leather recliners. The trip was very nice. We stayed on the train at at Niagara Falls until the customs inspectors were finished. At NYP, they did have a big sign (at least back then) saying "Canada Check-in" or something like that near the gate.


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> My husband and I will be doing several day trips (no overnight) through Italy in October, so I'm curious as to how their trains will stack up against Amtrak. We also are looking at traveling Ontario to Montreal on Canadian Rail and also possibly Montreal to Vancouver as well..... ^_^


Most people consider the italian trains the worst in Europe!(Mussolini has been dead over 60 years! :lol: )Be sure and book first class, you do NOT want to ride second class if you thought your trip to Canada was a bad one! VIA runs very good corridor trains, of course there are plenty of trip reports/comments on the Canadian route from Toronto-Vancouver, this is a bucket list trip! Since comfort seems paramount to your hubby be sure you book a bedroom for 2, their accomadations are smaller than Amtraks generally but the food/scenery and OBS service is second to none!(Neither are the prices except in the winter!)


----------



## Donctor (Jul 9, 2010)

arrow3 said:


> Doesn't the Maple Leaf use Amfleet II coaches? I would think that the Amfleet II coach is equal to or better than the Amfleet I business class. I would definitely been unhappy.
> 
> I traveled on the Maple Leaf from NYP to Niagara Falls, ON about 2 years ago in business class. They did have the "club" seating (2-1) with the leather recliners. The trip was very nice. We stayed on the train at at Niagara Falls until the customs inspectors were finished. At NYP, they did have a big sign (at least back then) saying "Canada Check-in" or something like that near the gate.


It certainly does. However, business class is usually the Club-Dinette setup. As of a few weeks ago, the standard consist was:

P32 / P42

Amfleet II Coach

Amfleet II Coach

Amfleet II Coach

Amfleet I Coach

Amfleet I Club-Dinette

Might they have been using the Amfleet I coach as a full business class car?


----------



## RTOlson (Jul 10, 2010)

First, I'm sorry that you had a bad trip and I hope you hear back from Amtrak.

Second, I don't know if having to use a public toilet is a dealbreaker for Superliner roomettes. I don't know about other people's experiences, but the public bathrooms in the Superliner sleeper cars are pretty nice -- a wholly different experience from the coach bathrooms. The one sleeper car I've been in had its bathrooms remodeled to maximize the space in the room.

They're also serving a lot fewer people -- 4 toilets for the maximum 32 passengers that don't have private commodes (although nothing prevents the bedroom passengers from using them as well). Superliner coaches have to accommodate more than twice as many passengers with 5 toilets.

There may be other factors involved in picking sleeper accommodations (including space, cost and comfort), but I don't mind the toilet situation.


----------



## JoanieBlon (Oct 24, 2010)

JoanieBlon said:


> My husband and I will be doing several day trips (no overnight) through Italy in October, so I'm curious as to how their trains will stack up against Amtrak. We also are looking at traveling Ontario to Montreal on Canadian Rail and also possibly Montreal to Vancouver as well..... ^_^


Just a quick note about a few things I had mentioned back in July. The Italian trains were WONDERFUL!!  We traveled in First Class with reserved seats on 3 different trips ~ Venice to Florence, Florence to Naples, and Naples to Rome. Everything was clean and very comfortable. We were offered a complimentary welcome aboard beverage ~ Prosecco ~ or others....chocolates...and newspapers (In Italian). The ride was UNBELIEVABLY SMOOTH & QUIET!!!!! I don't think we ever encountered a rail crossing ~ the train tracks either went over or under any roads along the way. We also traveled on the local, Second Class train from Naples to Pompeii and return. While not as luxurious and the Eurostar trains, they were VERY good ~ quick and efficient. The train stations were very easy to deal with and the trains RAN ON TIME. My husband and I would most definitely use TrenItalia to travel around the country again, should we return to Italy! We both LOVED the country, the people, and the food, so that's a distinct possibility!

I have booked the trip on Canadian Rail ~ Montreal to Vancouver ~ for May 2011. We are REALLY looking forward to that trip! We have a 2 day stop-over in Jasper, which is included in the basic price of our fares.

Regarding our less than "pleasant" trip on the Maple Leaf in July 2010, I did received a letter of apology from Amtrak Customer Relations, along with a Transportation Certificate for $35 to be used before August 7, 2011. We will be booking a trip on the Sunset Limited from New Orleans to Los Angeles in October 2011 just as soon as our date becomes available in the booking system, so I hope to use the credit then....


----------



## exhausted me (Jul 19, 2013)

From Niagara to penn station . with delays & custom inspection 14 hours....Amtrak never again


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (Jul 19, 2013)

Niagara to New York City timetable at 11 hrs 34 min.

Long day with out delays.


----------



## Nathanael (Jul 19, 2013)

Choo Choo said:


> 'JoanieBlon' said:
> 
> 
> > > The restrooms (two of them in our car) were absolutely DISGUSTING by about 2 hours into the trip. I know that Amtrak canât prevent people from being outright pigs, but it would be helpful if staff could routinely do a check of the toilet facilities and do some cleaning up, if required. Even my husband was complaining about people urinating all over the seats, seat lids and floors.
> ...


Less use, first and foremost. A Superliner sleeper has 4 bathrooms serving 15 rooms (max 31 people, often less if people get roomettes single-occupancy), so less than 8 people per bathroom. A Superliner coach has 5 bathrooms serving max 74 people, so less than 15 people per bathroom. An Amfleet coach has 2 bathrooms serving 30 people, so less than 15 people per bathroom. The "new Viewliners" will have 2 bathrooms serving max 21 people, so less than 11 people per bathroom.
The difference between the number of people per bathroom is substantial. If you assume 75% occupancy, the Amfleet coach will still have nearly 12 people per bathroom, while the "new Viewliner" will have only 8.

In short, when Amtrak orders new long-distance coaches, it needs to increase the number of bathrooms. 3 bathrooms per Amfleet coach would help tremendously.


----------



## jis (Jul 19, 2013)

Nathanael said:


> In short, when Amtrak orders new long-distance coaches, it needs to increase the number of bathrooms. 3 bathrooms per Amfleet coach would help tremendously.


But PRIIA 305-003/Amtrak 964 Technical Specification clearly states that the requirement is 2 toilet facilities per car with at least one ADA compliant one.

Frankly, the way that the toilets are currently arranged in Amfleets, just for the taking of a little bit of floor baggage space, one could accommodate two of the toilet modules that will be used in Viewliner Sleepers on one side of the car, and have the ADA facility opposite those. This could be done without impinging on the seating area at all. To account for the baggage space lost, they could put a floor rack in the floor baggage space this increasing its capacity by a factor of at least two.

I guess it is time to shoot off a message to NARP and see if they'd chase this one.


----------



## AlanB (Jul 19, 2013)

Warning, this is a 3 year old topic!


----------

