# Airline blames deadly Buffalo crash on pilot error



## DET63 (Dec 14, 2009)

> (AP) – 3 hours ago
> 
> ROCHESTER, N.Y. — A regional airline is blaming the pilot for the commuter plane crash that killed 50 people near Buffalo earlier this year.
> 
> ...


Link

Not everyone agrees with the airline: Colgan, union differ on cause of fatal crash

See also this: Passengers of Continental Flight 3407 had sleep-deprived pilot, underpaid co-pilot



> Peregrine/AP
> 
> Rebecca Shaw was paid $16,000 to co-pilot doomed Flight 3407.


$16K ain't exactly a lot of dough, especially for a college graduate who probably has student loans to pay off as well as flight-school tuition that isn't cheap, either. Was she working another job or two? Probably.


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## DET63 (Dec 14, 2009)

If the late Becky Shaw (I seem to remember reading somewhere that she preferred to be called "Becky") was working a 40-hour/week, 2000 hour/year schedule, $16K would translate to $8/hour. Even if she worked 20 hours/week, or 1000 hours/year, it would translate to $16/hour—not exactly top wages for someone with your lives in her hands.


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## DET63 (Dec 16, 2009)

Are there any jobs in the railroad industry that pay $16,000/year? Do they involve operating trains (i.e., not janitors at the train station or the like)?


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 17, 2009)

The BTE is stronger than god. If they make that little, I doubt they make more than a trip a week.


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## Rumpled (Dec 17, 2009)

Saw that her position got about $23 an hour of flight time. Small regionals probably have about the same number of ground hours and flight hours.

$16k divided by $23 gives 695 flight hours or 13 a week. Actually sounds like kind of a lot to me.

I have a freind who is a flight attendant and the airline pay methods are impossible to figure out.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 17, 2009)

Rumpled said:


> Saw that her position got about $23 an hour of flight time. Small regionals probably have about the same number of ground hours and flight hours.$16k divided by $23 gives 695 flight hours or 13 a week. Actually sounds like kind of a lot to me.
> 
> I have a freind who is a flight attendant and the airline pay methods are impossible to figure out.


The airlines are not the only ones trying to "lowball" new hires! That's the latest thing in labor negotiations for management union busters, I have a friend that flies for United and he told me that he's flown with co-pilots that make less than $20,000 a year, he makes $100,000+ with his seniority but must retire @60 for no good reason! The way airlines work the ground time makes for loooooooong days, and crossing time zones repeatidly is not healthy or safe! You'd be surprised @ what goes on in the airline industry behind the scenes, Amtrak is a safe haven compared to that jungle!


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## DET63 (Dec 17, 2009)

Rumpled said:


> Saw that her position got about $23 an hour of flight time. Small regionals probably have about the same number of ground hours and flight hours.$16k divided by $23 gives 695 flight hours or 13 a week. Actually sounds like kind of a lot to me.
> 
> I have a freind who is a flight attendant and the airline pay methods are impossible to figure out.


I'm not clear as to whether she received a fixed salary or was paid hourly. I can see advantages and disadvantages to each. On a salary, there's no incentive for the employee to work overtime, since it won't result in increased pay. On the other hand, the airline may decide to try to wring as much out of its employee as it can. I'd like to see how much union contracts and government regulations are able to control that.


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## jis (Dec 18, 2009)

It should be interesting to see what the NTSB's final conclusions are. Colgan is of course trying to clear its image, but usually NTSB is not swayed by such.


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## Rumpled (Dec 18, 2009)

They most likely pay hourly, with differenet rates for different hours.

My friend, who is a flight attendant for American; gets paid for flight hours, ground hours, hours at base or working check-in counters, off hours away from base (layovers), training and probably a few more categories.

She's supposed to have a minimum of 70 flight hours a month and can refuse assignments at 100; but can work more if she wants.

Plus, she's pre-strike as they say. About 1990 or so I think. Everyone hired after that gets paid lower wage scales for everything. Almost 20 years later and she still won't talk to scabs.

It truly is mind boggling.


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## transit54 (Dec 21, 2009)

When I was at JetBlue, pilots and flight attendants were paid from the moment the door was closed and parking brake of the aircraft was released to the moment the brake was set. I recall pay for flight attendants was starting at a little over $21/hr - I don't recall what pilots made, but at the time (and I think still) JetBlue was the second highest paid airline in the country, behind Southwest.

Flight crews also received a very small hourly wage while they were away from their home base, I think it was around $2 or $3 per hour for FAs, to serve as a per-diem for meals and other expenses.

I didn't wade much into things beyond that - I was working airport/ground crew at the time.


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## saxman (Jan 12, 2010)

Flight crew get paid hourly, from when the door closes to when it opens at the destination. Boarding, pre-flight preparation, checking flight plans and weather, they are not getting paid. Some trips I would have a 4 or 5 hour sit at various airports, all unpaid.

Most regional airlines guarantee their flight crews 75 hours per month. Colgan pays its first year First Officers $21 an hour. That comes to $1575 per month before taxes.


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## tp49 (Jan 12, 2010)

saxman said:


> Flight crew get paid hourly, from when the door closes to when it opens at the destination. Boarding, pre-flight preparation, checking flight plans and weather, they are not getting paid. Some trips I would have a 4 or 5 hour sit at various airports, all unpaid.
> Most regional airlines guarantee their flight crews 75 hours per month. Colgan pays its first year First Officers $21 an hour. That comes to $1575 per month before taxes.


That's eye opening. How do pilots who work for these airlines make a livable wage then? Obviously most are probably working second jobs. 75 hours is just 5 hours below what is considered to be two full work weeks of 8 hour days (though in other places it can be as low as 70). As airlines are cutting costs and relying more on regional airlines as much as they can it makes me wonder how safe this really is.


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## saxman (Feb 14, 2010)

tp49 said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> > Flight crew get paid hourly, from when the door closes to when it opens at the destination. Boarding, pre-flight preparation, checking flight plans and weather, they are not getting paid. Some trips I would have a 4 or 5 hour sit at various airports, all unpaid.
> ...


This is one of the biggest issues of our plight. Wages and work rules have been chisseled away at over the year. Major airlines are giving the routes they use to fly to the cheaper regionals. Think of some of the flights you took back in the 80's or 90's. You were probably on a larger mainline aircraft. Now, you're on a 70 seat regional jet for many of the midsize cities.

Here's a rather eye opening video done by PBS to bring to light the regional crews plight.

"Flying Cheap"


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