# The new menus are here! The new menus are here!



## D.P. Roberts (May 5, 2015)

Amtrak's dining car menus were updated today - the first time since October 2014. For reference, here's a pdf of the Coast Starlight's new menu:
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/814/559/Coast-Starlight-Dining-Car-Menu-0515.pdf

For lunch, the special has changed from turkey meatballs & mash to a fried chicken breast and mash.

For dinner, the vegetarian special has changed from lasagna to a trio of spinach & ricotta-stuffed pasta shells.

I never saved the old menu, so I'm not certain about other changes, but it appears that the dinner "Healthy Option" has changed from an eye of round beef to an Asian BBQ chicken and rice. I assume that the fish entree has changed as well - it's now a seared salmon filet with a chile-lime butter sauce.

There's also a listing for another "Special" that may or may not be available for all three meals. I don't remember that being there before.

And, my favorite part - they're bringing back the Haagen-Dazs ice cream for dessert!


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## SarahZ (May 5, 2015)

The stuffed shells sound good.

I liked the turkey meatballs (they were insanely filling), but the tomato sauce was too acidic for my tastes. If the chicken is as good as the chicken they serve at dinner, I approve. 

I was able to get vanilla Haagen-Dazs on all three trains (EB, CS, CZ) a couple months ago and the SWC last Thanksgiving. It's the sorbet I really miss.


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## CHamilton (May 5, 2015)

Amtrak generally does salmon well (not that it beats what you got in Seattle, Sarah!) and I'm glad to see that the tiramisu is back.


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## SarahZ (May 5, 2015)

I just noticed the chicken is panko-crusted. I'm definitely ordering that next time.


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## keelhauled (May 5, 2015)

The meatballs were probably the best value on the menu for the amount of food you got. And they were rather good to boot. Pity they're gone.


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## Bob Dylan (May 5, 2015)

Glad to see the Talapia has been replaced with Salmon, which is usually good! The Healthy Choice, which is a very small portion but just right for light eaters, sounds interesting!

I hope they still have the Chocolate Mousse, its excellent!

And hopefully the Breakfast Menu was left alone, it us the best meal for the money on Amtrak IMO!!


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## D.P. Roberts (May 5, 2015)

SarahZ said:


> I just noticed the chicken is panko-crusted. I'm definitely ordering that next time.


I know I've seen it on the menu before - I could swear it was on last summer's menu, but it was never available while I was onboard. I hope I get to try it next month.


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## TinCan782 (May 5, 2015)

Although I've had a good experience with the tilapia, its good to see the salmon back on the menu. Please bring back the braised lamb shanks!!!


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## Eris (May 5, 2015)

Previous menu is accessible from archive.org

https://web.archive.org/web/20150124141732/http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/71/811/Coast-Starlight-Dining-Car-Menu-1014.pdf

I notice the burger prices have gone up from $10 to $11.50, and beer & wine have both kicked up 50c ($1 for a bottle of wine), the calorie counts for some items have gone up quite a bit, and the omelet lists cheese in its description but then lists it again as an optional $1 item. Also, the Chase AGR card is no longer pictured among the credit card payment options.


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## SP&S (May 5, 2015)

D.P. Roberts said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > I just noticed the chicken is panko-crusted. I'm definitely ordering that next time.
> ...


I could swear this was a special on the Starlight one time and was quite tasty.


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## CHamilton (May 5, 2015)

SP&S said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


It might have been. They seem to use the PPC as a testing ground for new menu items. I'm pretty sure that the meatballs were available in the PPC before they bounced their way to the national menu.


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## MyJourneys (May 5, 2015)

I guess there's no chocolate on the dessert menu anymore. I don't know how I'll survive it. Better pack some Snickers bars.


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## OBS (May 5, 2015)

The special is on the menu to be used as an occasional item, to clean out the freezers/warehouse I think...


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## crabby_appleton1950 (May 6, 2015)

Oops. Self deleted due to wrong info.

Mea culpa


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 6, 2015)

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> The Southwest Chief menu. Updated just in time for my May 19 departure ABQ-LAX-SAN
> 
> westbound:
> 
> ...


That is the May* 2013* Menu....


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## Eris (May 6, 2015)

Actual current SW Cheif menu, appears identical to the original post's Coast Starlight menu:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/103/282/Southwest-Chief-Dining-Car-Menu-0515.pdf


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## Anderson (May 6, 2015)

I'm glad to see Haagen Dazs back on the menu. Ditto the tiramisu (which my spell checker wants to pretend is not a word), though I've got a friend who is still mourning the loss of the blood orange sorbet. The change to salmon also means I may occasionally opt for that instead of steak (I'm not a tillapia fan).

Possibly the biggest plus is the addition of a specials line, implying that Amtrak _might_ run some rotating items through the menus.

On the minus side, the omelet cheese pricing is probably going to cause some headaches since the initial item implies cheese is included only for a surcharge to be listed. I expect you're going to get a few shouting matches over that dollar somewhere.

As to pricing, aside from the alcohol side of things the price lifts seem to be a move to pull more revenue out of the sleepers and into the diners.


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## TinCan782 (May 6, 2015)

Eris said:


> Actual current SW Cheif menu, appears identical to the original post's Coast Starlight menu:
> 
> http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/103/282/Southwest-Chief-Dining-Car-Menu-0515.pdf


It is identical. If you look further, you'll see all the menus are pretty much the same except for the cover design.


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## TinCan782 (May 6, 2015)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> crabby_appleton1950 said:
> 
> 
> > The Southwest Chief menu. Updated just in time for my May 19 departure ABQ-LAX-SAN
> ...


Gonna say the same thing...separate east/west menus are no more.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (May 6, 2015)

Eris said:


> Actual current SW Cheif menu, appears identical to the original post's Coast Starlight menu:
> 
> http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/103/282/Southwest-Chief-Dining-Car-Menu-0515.pdf


Thanks


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## saturn04 (May 6, 2015)

I wonder if you can still get the cheesecake without strawberries...if not, there are still some other tasting options.


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## Rail Freak (May 6, 2015)

I've had the cheesecake several times with a blueberry topping, which was good!!! Happy to see the French Toast listed!


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## Michael061282 (May 6, 2015)

You don't have to look very far to see why Amtrak is losing oodles of money on long distance food service. $7 for a hot dog & chips (on the childs menu), $12.50 for a cheeseburger. 3 strips of bacon or 2 pork sausage patties $3.75. Calling ahead and ordering a pizza at the next service stop is actually much more economical


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## crabby_appleton1950 (May 6, 2015)

Michael061282 said:


> Calling ahead and ordering a pizza at the next service stop is actually much more economical


You arrange to have it delivered to the train? And what, you step off onto the platform to pick it up?


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## seat38a (May 6, 2015)

SarahZ said:


> I just noticed the chicken is panko-crusted. I'm definitely ordering that next time.


Well this is nothing more than a rehash of what was offered last year on the Sunset Limited. Even the description is exactly the same.



P1000059 by seat38a, on Flickr


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## seat38a (May 6, 2015)

Looks like the menu in the PPC has changed as well. Dinner on both nights are NOT having the exact same thing as before. I'll be on it on the 16th. I'm glad the menu has changed before my trip.


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## ABQFloridian (May 6, 2015)

Awesome! I have been wondering if they would ever change again.

I don't know if this would merit is own thread, but I have always wondered, do they ever actually rotate the options with stars by them? I have seen news items and promotional videos which show dishes that are never on the menu, and the menu indicates they will have substitutions sometimes. However, whenever I ride, it is always the national menu.

Has anyone ever gotten a substitution? Do they exist at all? Do I have to luck out and rid on a day a news crew is onboard? Or have I just been unlucky.


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## Train2104 (May 6, 2015)

OBS said:


> The special is on the menu to be used as an occasional item, to clean out the freezers/warehouse I think...


What is there to clean out if the same menu is used on all trains? They wouldn't order something that isn't on the menu...


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## neroden (May 6, 2015)

The prices are not even slightly competitive. Apparently Amtrak wants to chase away coach customers?

This still seems to me like a plan to eliminate the dining cars. Which is frankly stupid, given that they aren't replacing them with anything; it'll just be a ridership and revenue killer. They might not notice given the overall upward trend in ridership and revenue, though.


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## neroden (May 6, 2015)

ABQFloridian said:


> I don't know if this would merit is own thread, but I have always wondered, do they ever actually rotate the options with stars by them?


Sometimes they just leave them off the train entirely, no substitution.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 6, 2015)

I like the chicken lunch option and all the dinner ones. And, darn it, I probably won't be able to take any long-distance train trips til the fall or winter. How often do they switch up the menu? I'm assuming I might still see this one, considering how long it took to get a new one this time!


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## jphjaxfl (May 6, 2015)

I don't think the Dining Car prices are too high compared to most of the better Restaurants in Jacksonville, Fl where I live.


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## greatcats (May 6, 2015)

Regretfully, I don't consider the dining cars these days a high class restaurant and would not likely pay those prices in a conventional restaurant.


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## Bob Dylan (May 6, 2015)

jphjaxfl said:


> I don't think the Dining Car prices are too high compared to most of the better Restaurants in Jacksonville, Fl where I live.


Applebee's food @ Upscale prices is comparing apples to oranges.
I agree with Eric, I wouldn't pay those prices if riding in Coach, or if Amtrak once again goes back to the age old practice of having the food in the Diners be a la carte, pay as you go!

If they truly want to charge those prices for food and drink, then the quality and the ambience needs to be improved to First Class standards! The nickel and dime cuts need to be gone and the bean counters that dreamed them up should be assigned to other departments or let go!!


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## ThomasTrain (May 6, 2015)

I happened to be on board the Capitol this week and really enjoyed the new salmon entree. Way better than the tilapia. The new strawberry cheesecake is Interesting, the cheesecake itself is strawberry flavored... A little on the sweet side but I still ate it all up.

Of other note, the CCC car was being used as both diner and cafe, the sightseer car was totally unstaffed.


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## jshell (May 6, 2015)

Just like how the $7 beers and hot dogs and burgers at a ballpark/arena are all superb first class experiences... Ha!


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## Amware (May 6, 2015)

If/when meals are no longer included with sleepers I'll be brown bagging it...

...except for breakfast, unless Boardman manages to screw it up too...

... in the name of 'saving' the diners. :wacko:


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## peconicstation (May 6, 2015)

The foodfacts site has also been updated, and provides info on the "specials", which are an entree salad with either salmon, or the flat iron steak for dinner, and a sandwich

special at lunch.

That site also has a listing for "Dining Car Express Service" whatever that is supposed to be.

http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com/

Ken


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## neroden (May 6, 2015)

Well, the plan seems to be to raise prices to drive coach passengers away, and cut quality to drive sleeper passengers away. The only real question is how much damage this will do to Amtrak's overall ridership and revenue. There is such a huge underlying increase in demand for train travel as demographics change in favor of it, that this may be lost in the noise. I guess we'll see in the next few years.


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## dlagrua (May 6, 2015)

We can live with the menus on the LD trains all except for the Autotrain that has food less appetizing than what is on the Federal Bureau of Prisons menu.

Here is the federal bureau of prisons menu. Looks better than the Amtrak Autotrain menu:

http://bop.gov/foia/national_menu_lun_din.pdf

When you feed convicts better than sleeper passengers that support the system; it is really an injustice. Serving this prison food on Amtrak may represent an improvement.


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## seat38a (May 6, 2015)

Well by the looks of it, it looks like I'll be eating a lot of sour dough bread on the CS and EB this month. Maybe someone ordered WAY too much sour dough and needed to get rid of it?


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## benale (May 6, 2015)

Only similarity between Amtrak's food and first class restaurants are the prices. I'm glad I'm in a sleeper for my June trip. Some examples of Amtrak's overpriced menu: You have to pay $3 more for a salad, The angus burger used to be the same price with or without cheese. Now it's a dollar more. At $12.50 for a cheeseburger, a side order of fries included would be nice . Coffee and juice are not included in the breakfast. They used to be. Is Iced Tea still included in the lunch and dinner price, or has that been eliminated? Next they'll be charging for basic tap water.

I love Amtrak. I've taken dozens of long distance trips over the last twenty five years,the last several years in sleepers,. When I would ride cross country in Coach the food prices were much more reasonable. A dinner in the diner is still an experience, but if two of you want steak,salad,soda and dessert for dinner,that will set you back about $70. Granted the steak is good,but it, like everything else is overpriced.

My only complaint about Amtrak is the price of food, from the cafe car to the diner. Of course you are a captive audience,but it would be nice for at least a few of the items have more down to earth pricing.

Again, I'm glad I'm in a sleeper. I feel sorry for the folks who will be in a sleeper on The Silver Star after July, . When you add up the amount of food you would probably purchase from the cafe car, it's really not much of a savings. Of course, you could stock up on your own food,but you will probably want at least two meals, and something that is hot.


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## Bob Dylan (May 6, 2015)

As someone who has worked in and visited many Federal Correction Institutions, I assure you that the food served in these prisons is NOT as good as the meals served in Amtrak Diners!

The menus might sound great, but something is lost in the preparation and amenities in a prison cafeteria, trust me!


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## seat38a (May 6, 2015)

benale said:


> Only similarity between Amtrak's food and first class restaurants are the prices. I'm glad I'm in a sleeper for my June trip. Some examples of Amtrak's overpriced menu: You have to pay $3 more for a salad, The angus burger used to be the same price with or without cheese. Now it's a dollar more. At $12.50 for a cheeseburger, a side order of fries included would be nice . Coffee and juice are not included in the breakfast. They used to be. Is Iced Tea still included in the lunch and dinner price, or has that been eliminated? Next they'll be charging for basic tap water.
> 
> I love Amtrak. I've taken dozens of long distance trips over the last twenty five years,the last several years in sleepers,. When I would ride cross country in Coach the food prices were much more reasonable. A dinner in the diner is still an experience, but if two of you want steak,salad,soda and dessert for dinner,that will set you back about $70. Granted the steak is good,but it, like everything else is overpriced.
> 
> ...


I don't think Amtrak deep fries on the train. The burgers all come with chips but no fries.


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## StriderGDM (May 6, 2015)

Yeah, no deep-fryers on a vehicle that can get quite bumpy!

As for prices, it's partly a captive audience, it's partly "it's damn expensive for Amtrak" for a variety of reasons to stock and serve food.

That said, I do think outside vendors might find viable ways to shake things up and cut costs some.

I don't have the numbers but I'd be curious to see how food prices and costs on the Downeaster compare to say the NEC.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 7, 2015)

seat38a said:


> Well by the looks of it, it looks like I'll be eating a lot of sour dough bread on the CS and EB this month. Maybe someone ordered WAY too much sour dough and needed to get rid of it?


Ummm... what? I don't see anything with sourdough bread on it?


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## Gord (May 7, 2015)

neroden said:


> The prices are not even slightly competitive. Apparently Amtrak wants to chase away coach customers?
> 
> This still seems to me like a plan to eliminate the dining cars. Which is frankly stupid, given that they aren't replacing them with anything; it'll just be a ridership and revenue killer. They might not notice given the overall upward trend in ridership and revenue, though.


Amtrak is being ordered to cut dining car costs and losses. You can bet they know it's stupid and not good for customer relations and have probably heard an earful which would be better directed to elected officials hostile to Amtrak. They are the true source of the problem. Dining cars in some form are necessary for LD travel in North America but never have and likely never will, make money with the exception of luxury services for the wealthy.

.


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## seat38a (May 7, 2015)

D.P. Roberts said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > Well by the looks of it, it looks like I'll be eating a lot of sour dough bread on the CS and EB this month. Maybe someone ordered WAY too much sour dough and needed to get rid of it?
> ...


On amtrakfoodfacts.com it shows that they are showing a variation of grilled sour dough for breakfast special. And for lunch, putting tomatoes in it and serving it as a special again.


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## greatcats (May 7, 2015)

I am leaving on a big trip from Arizona to New Jersey this coming Sunday. Hopefully positive comments will be forthcoming from me; Mr Hudson take note! I take it the revised menu is now in effect? Some of it sounds fairly palatable.


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## amtrakwolverine (May 7, 2015)

StriderGDM said:


> Yeah, no deep-fryers on a vehicle that can get quite bumpy!


Don't need deep fryers just pop frozen fries into a oven or microwave.


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## andersone (May 7, 2015)

Fries from a microwave?

not in my lifetime,,,,,

no crunch no munch


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## Palmetto (May 7, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> As someone who has worked in and visited many Federal Correction Institutions, I assure you that the food served in these prisons is NOT as good as the meals served in Amtrak Diners!
> 
> The menus might sound great, but something is lost in the preparation and amenities in a prison cafeteria, trust me!


And if you take Wednesday dinner, as an example, you get a choice of either a pork chop or a pork chop. Take your choice


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## MILW 36C (May 7, 2015)

I am from Chicago and spoiled absolutely rotten with the great, reasonably priced food available here. However, when riding Amtrak, my objective isn't worrying about getting hosed in the dining car, I like planes and trains: but have rebelled at flying unless I really have to do it. Because I like to relax when I travel and like Amtrak, this is how I roll. In the sleeper when my wife is traveling with me and in coach when I am alone.

With the exception of the limited menu on the Auto Train "where's the beef" (steak and baked potato is missing in action, folks) the presentation of menu items IMO, on http://www.amtrakfoodfacts.com is really a good offering based upon the cuts Amtrak has had to make.

The steak salad is $23 and the Signature Steak is $26? Wine is expensive? So what! I am there to look out the window and have a good meal on my way from point A to point B. The food isn't bad in the Amtrak diner and the service has gotten better. If I am not in the mood for a large meal then the Café snacks are okay. I also bring some snack things that I like from home.

I believe that Amtrak's food service challenges from Congress are a bit over the top, but the actions that management is taking to curb losses will make the operation better. The Amtrak ridership is growing, new riders are accepting the fact that rail service is efficient. OTOH, the dining services changes will not cause the end on LD train services,


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## seat38a (May 7, 2015)

amtrakwolverine said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, no deep-fryers on a vehicle that can get quite bumpy!
> ...


I'll take the kettle chips to any nuked fries. The day they get rid of the kettle chips and replace it with nuked fries would be the day Amtrak food service hits absolute BOTTOM.


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 7, 2015)

seat38a said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > Don't need deep fryers just pop frozen fries into a oven or microwave.
> ...


Put me down for the Kettle Chips as well. I enjoy French Fries to no end provided they are _*PROPERLY*_ cooked _*AND*_ have some flavor to them; most commercially available ones fall short on this.


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## fillyjonk (May 7, 2015)

Honestly, I don't mind the food and the listed prices. I wish they could get a bit more consistency in the service.

Some times when I've been on, it's been swift and friendly and good. Other times it was like the Keystone Kops were doing it - totally disorganized, a table would come in and sit for 20 minutes while everyone else around them got service. You'd ask for a glass of water and it would never come.....

I wouldn't mind paying for the food if I could actually trust the service to be okay. (I mostly travel sleeper, so though I pay for it, it's not at the time I consume it that I pay.....)


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## neroden (May 7, 2015)

StriderGDM said:


> As for prices, it's partly a captive audience, it's partly "it's damn expensive for Amtrak" for a variety of reasons to stock and serve food.


Last time I tried to dig into the costs, I found that it was quite cheap for Amtrak to stock food. And to sell it... in the cafe. The problem of making the dining cars independently profitable... well, Pullman did it back in the 19th century, and it could be done now, but it can't be done with current wage, benefit, and perk levels. Mostly the perks.
Running the dining car is a substantial fixed cost which has to be covered by volume. The chef & assistant chef are very large fixed costs which have to be covered by volume. The wages, benefits, and especially perks of the employees make them extremely expensive; the foregone roomette revenue alone is more than $300/day/employee, and can be as high as $800/day/employee.

The waiters (whatever they're being called now) are large *variable* costs, because each waiter can only handle so many tables (probably 4). The effective cost of an average dining car employee to Amtrak is on the order of $50/hour, and most of that is benefits & perks, NOT wages. Assuming the food itself costs nothing, each waiter has to clear more than $1000 in revenue per day just to cover the cost of his/her own wages, benefits, and perks. (A third of that is lost revenue from the roomette perk which they get.) Assuming a full house, that would mean the first $7 of each meal is just going to cover the waiter (more if roomette rates are higher). Then there's the actual cost of the food, which I have treated as negligible.

The small amount of remaining revenue after that still has to cover the fixed costs -- this means that in order to break even, the volume in the dining cars has to be very high. Probably higher than can actually be served in a single dining car, without an added table car. Auto Train may be able to break even due to enormous volume and the presence of a table car.

The wages, benefits, and perks of the large number of dining car employees, combined with the relatively low volumes of traffic, are what make the dining cars unprofitable.

Of course, raising the prices, and cutting the quality, is going to cut the volume of traffic and make the finances worse. But less traffic means Amtrak can lay off some of the waiters, driving the dining cars into a death spiral until they can be cancelled due to "low usage". Sigh. :-(

We're seeing the trial on the Silver Star already.


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## seat38a (May 7, 2015)

It seems the pancakes have been put to rest for the railroad french toast? It used to rotate out between the pancakes and the french toast but for the last couple of updates, it seems the pancakes have been MIA.


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## andersone (May 7, 2015)

happy as a clam French toast is back,, may they keep it until august for my next CZ encounter


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## STX train (May 7, 2015)

Calling a place to sleep for an employee on a multi-day work situation a "perk" seems a much a stretch as calling serving food for travelers a "perk."


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## ehbowen (May 7, 2015)

While it may be a stretch to call "a place to sleep" a perk, it's not so much of a stretch to call a private roomette (which could be sold to a revenue passenger) a "perk". Back in the day a dormitory/baggage car might sleep a crew of 22-25, mostly in 3 high bunks, with half the car space still available for baggage. Only the stewards (who handled and kept the money) had private rooms. I slept in a 3 tier bunk for three years; it's no stretch AFAIC for train crewmembers to do so for four or five nights (with a hotel layover in the middle).


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## caravanman (May 7, 2015)

60 replies to a post in 24 hours?

Gotta be more about food than trains!

I hope your visits "inside" were by choice, not on Judges orders, Jim !

Ed.


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## Long Train Runnin' (May 7, 2015)

neroden said:


> Last time I tried to dig into the costs, I found that it was quite cheap for Amtrak to stock food. And to sell it... in the cafe. The problem of making the dining cars independently profitable... well, Pullman did it back in the 19th century, and it could be done now, but it can't be done with current wage, benefit, and perk levels. Mostly the perks.


Please tell me where you can find the financial records from railroads in the *19th *century I would love to take a look at them.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 7, 2015)

seat38a said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> > seat38a said:
> ...



Ahh, I was looking at the regular menu, I had not checked out amtrakfoodfacts.com yet. You're right, the specials are sourdough-heavy - I've never seen grilled cheese for breakfast!

I do like the "Engineer" special for breakfast, though - as much as I love the Railroad French Toast, I never find it very filling. The idea of a half order of French Toast with potatoes and eggs sounds great. I hope to see that as an option.

Either way, I hope Amtrak does indeed offer specials on most of its routes.


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## KmH (May 8, 2015)

In had the panko coated chicken breast and garlic mashed potatoes for lunch on the CZ May 1.

It was a lot of food.

The chocolate mousse was still available.


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## the Other Mike (May 8, 2015)

Having been cursed by being born and raised in New Orleans I see Amtrak food as about as exciting as having turkey roll at Denny's on Thanksgiving Day. Yes, it represents something edible, but not something I would ever look forward to unless lost in the woods for a week.

How long has it been since full kitchens operated ? The 70's ? At this point I'd rather see vendors on the platforms selling local flair much like the burrito lady. She's not a Harvey Girl, but she'll do.

There's a reason the CONO has been called the chicken bone express for many years

Pass me a pigfoot and a bottle of gin, the piano player the dining car is bring me down


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## jis (May 8, 2015)

Long Train Runnin' said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Last time I tried to dig into the costs, I found that it was quite cheap for Amtrak to stock food. And to sell it... in the cafe. The problem of making the dining cars independently profitable... well, Pullman did it back in the 19th century, and it could be done now, but it can't be done with current wage, benefit, and perk levels. Mostly the perks.
> ...


I have seen some off the cuff claims by some authors to the effect without providing much evidence. I think the overall food operations of Harvey was profitable, but I don't think they ever broke out their Dining Car service on Santa Fe trains separately. Of course the Harvey House restaurant chain was wildly successful. Similarly I am not sure that I have ever found any accounting of Pullman where they separated out their food service part.

So yes, I would like to see if such clean accounting has been found by someone.


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## Glenn (May 8, 2015)

I have no idea what the specifics were for Harvey or Pullman way back when, but there is plenty of information regarding dining car losses by railroads that operated their own in the 1950's and, by in large, the losses were huge. While I can understand that people on sites like this long for a return to 1950's quality and style dining;..that isn't going to happen. Also, suggestions that LD trains shouldn't bother to offer meal service and instead just let people buy tacos at stations is downright silly. Amtrak's LD schedules are too slow as it is. Going back 150 years to "meal stops" is absurd.

What's the bottom line here? Is Amtrak's food great? No! Is it decent? Pretty much, yes. Does it cost more than a restaurant serving equivalent food would charge? Duh, yeah! It's moving restaurant with an onboard staff that gets paid way more than you average restaurant worker. LD trains lose money, lots of money. If the nation wants LD service its going to have face up to paying for it through a subsidy. Forcing Amtrak to nickel and dime everything isn't ever going to solve the problem. Amtrak can surely be run better, much better, but I do believe that part of the systems problem is that they have been so underfunded for so long that people at Amtrak are just depressed from swimming upstream for so long.


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## tommylicious (May 8, 2015)

very well said Glenn!


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## jis (May 8, 2015)

Well put Glenn!


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## shelzp (May 8, 2015)

The Harvey's had news stands, restaurants and cafes in stations which supplemented the dining car income. Large stations would have several Harvey enterprises in them. Part of their contract included having their freight carried to them at greatly reduced prices. The station restaurants were popular with people who lived in the towns because the food was good.


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## Bob Dylan (May 8, 2015)

Excellent post Glenn, thanks for sharing!


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## Dovecote (May 8, 2015)

I just completed a cross country trip on the Southwest Chief (SWC) and Lake Shore Limited (LSL). The trip started on May 4 and the "old" menu was furnished. The selections, with the exception of the panko crusted chicken, were offered. On May 6 on the LSL, the "old" menu was still furnished but the selections offered were from the "new" menu.

One pattern I did notice was the diner running out of selections. For example on the SWC for the second lunch the selections were limited to Caesar Salad and Angus Burger. Patrons were given the option of Macaroni & Cheese and Hot Dog from the Children's Menu. Pepsi and Bottled Water were not available. On the LSL, the chicken panko special was sold out as well as the ice cream selection.

This is my first Amtrak long distance trip in nearly two years. I hope this dining car experience is not the norm but I am afraid it is!


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## DryCreek (May 8, 2015)

Dovecote said:


> I just completed a cross country trip on the Southwest Chief (SWC) and Lake Shore Limited (LSL). The trip started on May 4 and the "old" menu was furnished. The selections, with the exception of the panko crusted chicken, were offered. On May 6 on the LSL, the "old" menu was still furnished but the selections offered were from the "new" menu.
> 
> One pattern I did notice was the diner running out of selections. For example on the SWC for the second lunch the selections were limited to Caesar Salad and Angus Burger. Patrons were given the option of Macaroni & Cheese and Hot Dog from the Children's Menu. Pepsi and Bottled Water were not available. On the LSL, the chicken panko special was sold out as well as the ice cream selection.
> 
> This is my first Amtrak long distance trip in nearly two years. I hope this dining car experience is not the norm but I am afraid it is!


Just wondering though - were the diners busy when they ran out of the menu items, or does it appear that they inadequately stocked the larder for the trip? The _good_ side of a good/bad situation like that would be that the shortages were caused by an unexpectedly large turnout from the coaches.


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## jis (May 8, 2015)

One wonders how they will ever make any money in the Diners if they are perpetually out of things to sell. Sounds like bureaucracy run rampant with incompetence.


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## Rail Freak (May 8, 2015)

Does any one have a rundown on what Amtrak spent a couple of years ago on the program to have chefs come up with different items to offer in the Diners? From a customer's view, I wasnt too impressed!


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## PaulM (May 8, 2015)

neroden said:


> it'll just be a ridership and revenue killer. They might not notice given the overall upward trend in ridership and revenue, though.


Let's hope the statisticians are smarter than that. Any time a change A is made and then B goes up or down, you really can't conclude much from that information alone.


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## Dovecote (May 9, 2015)

DryCreek said:


> Dovecote said:
> 
> 
> > I just completed a cross country trip on the Southwest Chief (SWC) and Lake Shore Limited (LSL). The trip started on May 4 and the "old" menu was furnished. The selections, with the exception of the panko crusted chicken, were offered. On May 6 on the LSL, the "old" menu was still furnished but the selections offered were from the "new" menu.
> ...


The SWC dining car appeared to have a fair turnout of coach passengers throughout the route. Passengers occupying the sleeping cars were close to capacity. The LSL dining car crowd for the lunch meal was sparse. The sleeping car capacity was extremely low due to a mass exodus of a foreign tour group departing in Buffalo.

I should add that I was in the second seating on the LSL and third seating on the SWC. It certainly appeared to me that Amtrak's food provision policy is to stock less in lieu of stocking more. There was a couple on the LSL that also experienced the same food shortage on their trip on the Texas Eagle from Tuscon.


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## DryCreek (May 9, 2015)

Dovecote said:


> The SWC dining car appeared to have a fair turnout of coach passengers throughout the route. That is very encouraging!
> 
> Passengers occupying the sleeping cars were close to capacity.  That too is good news.
> 
> ...


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## andersone (May 9, 2015)

I think two words describe Glenn's post:

Well Spken


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## twa904 (May 9, 2015)

I have just spent the last couple of hours looking at restaurant prices online. Sorry I didn't get a link but if you google "restaurant meal prices" you should find it. Most all the casual dining places across the US are listed. After looking at those prices and then looking at Amtrak's prices I think Amtrak is a little on the low side especially for breakfast or lunch. Quality of the meals may make a difference. Some on this forum say Amtrak is high priced, but like I say after looking I think they are low.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (May 9, 2015)

twa904 said:


> . Sorry I didn't get a link but if you google "restaurant meal prices" you should find it. Most all the casual dining places across the US are listed.


https://www.restaurantmealprices.com/


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## Guest (May 9, 2015)

Here's a few samples of dining and buffet revenues/expenses from 1950 (source Handbook of American Railroads)

Chicago Milwaukee: $1.947M / 2.995M

DRG&W : $.417M / $.630M

Erie: $.354M / $.502M

Grand Trunk: $.110 / $.191M

GN: $1.403M / $2.470M

NYC: $8.857 / $11.579

Nickel Plate: $.131M / $.252M

N&W: $.389M / $.650M

NP: $.807M / $1.102M

PRR: $8.744 / $11.375M

Santa Fe: $6.089M / $9.438M

So, at a period of time when virtually all LD trains had been equipped with modern rolling stock, when train travel was still very widely used and staff for dining cars were not paid terribly well all railroads lost money on it. All of that despite the leverage that an operation like the Santa Fe, NYC or PRR could bring based upon the scale of their food services.


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## Palmetto (May 10, 2015)

Very interesting, Guest. Thanks for posting it.


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## niemi24s (May 10, 2015)

Ah, a breath of fresh air - facts! Thanks for that. Barring any errors, all that adds up to:

• Revenues = $29.248M

• Expenses = $41.184M

• Losses = $41.184M - $29.248M = $11.936M or 100 X $11.936M ÷ $41.184M = 29%

• Return On Investment (?) = 100 X $29.248M ÷ $41.184M =71%


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## Glenn (May 10, 2015)

Of course, there was a lot more data on other railroads that I didn't bother posting, the bottom line was that every railroad lost money on food services. I don't think those losses accounted for amortization of the equipment or maintenance, it was just an accounting of direct costs of food, wages, etc. It is interesting to note that inflation from 1950 to today is about 10x. Which means that PRR or NYC railroad were bringing in revenues of more than $80M in today's money.

Its also interesting to look at the Southern Crescent lunch menu from 1950 which listed a chicken salad on toast at $2.10, which would be $21.00 in todays money. I wonder what the Amtrak whiners would have to say about that price!!


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## George K (May 10, 2015)

Glenn said:


> It is interesting to note that inflation from 1950 to today is about 10x.


A handy inflation calculator can be found here: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

And yeah, a factor of 10 (9.7 actually) is about right.


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## SteveSFL (May 10, 2015)

Some things I noticed: Empire Builder had old menus but some of the new entrees. They had the spinach stuffed pasta instead of the lasagna and the Panko crusted chicken. But they still had tilapia.

Coast starlight has new menus but had pancakes instead of the French toast listed on the new menu. They put fresh strawberries on the pancakes! Coast starlight has the lunch special grilled cheddar and tomato on sourdough and a breakfast special which was egg and cheese on grilled sourdough.

Both coast starlight and empire builder have switched to the new desserts. The tiramisu is ok, but not as good as the chocolate desserts of the past. The strawberry cheesecake with the strawberries inside is still good, but not as good as the plain cheesecake topped with strawberries.


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## Bob Dylan (May 10, 2015)

And the minimum wage and the average workers salary has gone up by more than multiple of 10 in these 60+ years!

I'm old enough to remember the diners, cafe and buffet cars from the Golden era of Passenger trains ( as well as the terrible SP Vending Machine cars) and wasn't able to afford to eat in them on most trips!

But when I did, the quality and choices were about 10 times better than the current Amchow served from the National Menu!! (not to mention the good stuff served in cafes and coffee shops in the Big Stations.)


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## niemi24s (May 10, 2015)

Glenn said:


> Its also interesting to look at the Southern Crescent lunch menu from 1950 which listed a chicken salad on toast at $2.10, which would be $21.00 in todays money. I wonder what the Amtrak whiners would have to say about that price!!


I feel confident the Amtrak whiners would claim the 1950-era chicken was simply 10X better than that served today. Some folks would complain even if you tried hanging them with a new rope!


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## Anderson (May 10, 2015)

niemi24s said:


> Glenn said:
> 
> 
> > Its also interesting to look at the Southern Crescent lunch menu from 1950 which listed a chicken salad on toast at $2.10, which would be $21.00 in todays money. I wonder what the Amtrak whiners would have to say about that price!!
> ...


Well, I think there are three things to be said here. One is that the food then probably _was_ better in at least some sense (better prep and presentation; it would have all been freshly cooked instead of being a little more than microwaved, as is the case with any cafe offerings now). The second is that those costs would have been aggravated by not having as much pre-packaged stuff to work with as well as eating a bit more spoilage than Amtrak is willing/able to. The third, and probably most important in many senses, is that the price of a coach ticket was such that there were a lot of trips simply not happening then which happen now (if you compare Amtrak's fares from now with c. 1970 fares, from what I can tell the coach fare from the 1970s is on par with the highest buckets on most routes now).

Edit: It's interesting seeing that the NYC and Pennsy had some of the best CR figures. It makes sense...the New York-Chicago trains did quite heavy business end-to-end, and the Pennsy additionally likely had some strongly-performing OBS numbers on some corridor trains on the NEC.

I'm going to forward this thread to my friends at NARP to see if they can work those figures into a presentation.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (May 10, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> And the minimum wage and the average workers salary has gone up by more than multiple of 10 in these 60+ years!


And how much has the cost of living gone up in 60 years?


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## Bob Dylan (May 10, 2015)

crabby_appleton1950 said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > And the minimum wage and the average workers salary has gone up by more than multiple of 10 in these 60+ years!
> ...


More or less the same up to 2008! 
Inflation really hit hard in the 70s and 80s, and now since the 2008 Meltdown (it wasn't a Recession) due to Wall Street and Big Bank greed, the average Working and Retired Americans are falling behind the curve while the Super Rich get Mega Rich!

As has been said many times here, Coach fares are actually cheap compared to the Golden Age of Passenger Rail with Diner meals about on par and Cafe junk food and drink much higher for poorer quality now! ( ie Coke/10 cents= $1.00 vs. Pepsi/$2.25 now)

Sleeping Car Rooms are actually more expensive since we no longer have the choice of Slumber Coaches and Open Sections, and there are fewer Sleepers!


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## rusty spike (May 10, 2015)

The dining cars of the "golden age" railroads were a marketing tool--not a profit center. Four different railroads served the Chicago-St. Louis market with multiple trains and similar schedules. If you liked the Wabash diner's chicken pot pie, you might book that train just for the meal. Santa Fe competed more or less with 2 other railroads in the Chicago-LA market but only Santa Fe had "Meals by Fred Harvey". In addition to that, maybe the perks on a particular railroad's passenger trains influenced the railroad's good freight customers to route their shipments to that road--sometimes even comping them a meal in the diner. An interesting article _(Santa Fe Encore_) in the current edition (June 2015) of _Trains_ magazine illustrates this point. When the writer was a little boy, he rode the _Super Chief _with his father and was treated to dinner in the Turquoise Room, the train's private, first-class dining room. The father was a 3-boxcar per week shipper on Santa Fe.

Amtrak has no rail competition, no freight customers to wine-&-dine. so it is as they say, "Let them eat cake"!

edited to add name of magazine.


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## Glenn (May 10, 2015)

FYI, a 6oz coke cost $.15 in a railroad diner in 1960, that's equivalent to $1.20 today. A 12oz pepsi costs $2.25 on Amtrak. I don't see much difference.


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## Anderson (May 10, 2015)

Glenn said:


> FYI, a 6oz coke cost $.15 in a railroad diner in 1960, that's equivalent to $1.20 today. A 12oz pepsi costs $2.25 on Amtrak. I don't see much difference.


True, though IIRC this was also in an era when both Pepsi and Coke were suppressing their prices...led by Coke, who was so stuck on their vending machine situation (the "just a nickel" bit) that they actually lobbied the Eisenhower administration to consider a 7.5 cent coin so they could raise prices. By 1950, the price of a Coke had been stable for about 60 years...so the soda front is probably not the best comparison. With that said, I'd love to go back and run numbers on some Santa Fe menus from the 50s and from the 60s.

http://consumerist.com/2012/11/15/how-did-a-coke-only-cost-a-nickel-for-70-years-because-coca-cola-said-so/


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## Bob Dylan (May 10, 2015)

Also Check out the Menu for the Kings Dinner ( aka the Kings Ransom) on ICRR's Panama Ltd. between CHI and NOL!

It cost $10, which would be $100 today, but that's what one pays in high end joints now and it was on a Train heading for New Orleans!


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## chakk (May 11, 2015)

I remember eating french fries in the diner on B&Os Columbian in the 1950s and early 60s. They were definitely crunchy and delicious. Yumm!


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## neroden (May 11, 2015)

Guest said:


> So, at a period of time when virtually all LD trains had been equipped with modern rolling stock, when train travel was still very widely used and staff for dining cars were not paid terribly well all railroads lost money on it. All of that despite the leverage that an operation like the Santa Fe, NYC or PRR could bring based upon the scale of their food services.


Of course. This does not include the *ticket* revenues brought in by dining car service, which were always considered to cover the costs. The dining cars were a marketing tool, a loss leader which brought in high-priced ticket revenue. And there was a lot of that ticket revenue back then, enough to make the dining cars a clear success. And they still should be such a tool....
Unfortunately, I redid the math on this for Amtrak fairly recently, and it's not at all clear that the induced ticket revenues are covering the dining car costs today. :wince: The dining cars need to be serving a lot more people to be attracting the sort of ticket revenue which will cover those costs.

Back in the 1980s, the estimate was that slashing dining car service cost 13.6% of ridership. You can look at 13.6% of revenue on each route yourself, which may be an overestimate; looks like a lot, doesn't it? $5.4 million as a high estimate, on the Meteor in 2012 (its high point); $4.46 million on the LSL....

Unfortunately, the cost of operating the dining car is enormous. If you include the foregone revenue from the unsaleable roomettes, it came out around $2.95 - $3.9 million on the LSL, or $3.8 - $4.8 million on each of the trains to the South. *Assuming that the food costs nothing.* (And every time roomette prices go up, this effective cost goes up. Each lost roomette is currently eating about $80K in revenue per year, but that could increase.)

In 1950, the cost of dining car operations was quite clearly covered by the improved ticket sales as a result of the dining cars. In 2015, even with a generous allocation of ticket sales to the dining car operations, it's unclear whether it breaks even, and I think it probably doesn't.

What is clear is that the food itself is the least of the costs; the cost is in labor, car hauling and maintenance, and revenue foregone by housing the staff. Cutting the food quality is utterly senseless, as the food quality is the main thing which is useful for marketing purposes.


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## Davids (May 12, 2015)

I am currently on the coast starlight in coach and found this menu on the seat. I am not sure if this is part of new menu change or something has been going on for a while. Last time I was on CS, this was not offered. What interesting is, this one is only for coach who like to have meal at their seat.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 12, 2015)

Davids said:


> I am currently on the coast starlight in coach and found this menu on the seat. I am not sure if this is part of new menu change or something has been going on for a while. Last time I was on CS, this was not offered. What interesting is, this one is only for coach who like to have meal at their seat.


That is interesting - has anyone seen that before? I wonder if it's another attempt to serve food onboard without the expense of the actual dining car.

It doesn't appear to match up with any existing meals from the menu, but clearly includes a number of components from both the regular dining car and the PPC menus (with the exception of the salisbury steak, unless that's just a burger patty).


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## Palmetto (May 12, 2015)

I imagine this is a test. And one that's going in the right direction, I think. I guess the coach attendant will have to be running back and forth to the dining car to provide the at-seat service, and that it would be a plus to have this service during only a certain window of time for each meal.

I suppose that, technically, these meals could also be served out of the microwave in the lounge car of the Silver Star.


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## jebr (May 12, 2015)

I like this change. The pricing is right, and the food at least looks decent (if not amazing.) If I was traveling coach, I'd probably get a fair amount of these meais.


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## TraneMan (May 12, 2015)

Davids said:


> I am currently on the coast starlight in coach and found this menu on the seat. I am not sure if this is part of new menu change or something has been going on for a while. Last time I was on CS, this was not offered. What interesting is, this one is only for coach who like to have meal at their seat.


My friend, Timothy is part of this menu, he shared this with me, and got my feed back.. He's on the train right now, so if you have any feed back or anything, let him know.


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## TraneMan (May 12, 2015)

jebr said:


> I like this change. The pricing is right, and the food at least looks decent (if not amazing.) If I was traveling coach, I'd probably get a fair amount of these meais.


That's what I told him when he asked for my feed back. Lot better than getting microwave food from the lounge car.


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## Bob Dylan (May 12, 2015)

What an innovative idea, a Coach menu with limited choice but lower prices!It also provides Coach attendants the opportunity for tips, and to actually be present in their cars instead of being MIA like so many currently are!

Hopefully more choices might be added ( such as hot dogs, pizza or a salad/ veggie choice)!

I like this idea, Amtrak needs more of this and less nickel and dime cuts that actually accomplish nothing except p***ing off customers!


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## Wondering (May 12, 2015)

TraneMan said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > I like this change. The pricing is right, and the food at least looks decent (if not amazing.) If I was traveling coach, I'd probably get a fair amount of these meais.
> ...


One area of concern is how the TAs will actually carry out this more formal at-seat meal service. Technically, this service has been available, but now it is being formally encouraged through these new menus. I hope that the TAs will embrace their increased responsibilities, seeing this as a way to help Amtrak weather its fiscal challenges. But I fear that at least some of them will view this enhancement as "just more work" and will allow this attitude to permeate the interactions with those who ask for the service. We already see this with some sleeper attendants who make it clear that delivering meals to your room is a bother and a hassle.


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## Eris (May 12, 2015)

At-seat dining at Dining Car prices hasn't been a huge draw in coach. This menu is kind of awesome, and I suspect I will absolutely utilize it if it's available on my next coach trip on the Coast Starlight. Even better will be if the Mac'n'Cheese can be gotten at dinner, and with the chicken on the side, because picky child is picky.


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## D.P. Roberts (May 12, 2015)

TraneMan said:


> My friend, Timothy is part of this menu...


Yuck - I was wondering where the Salisbury steak came from. I am sorry for your loss.


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## Rail Freak (May 12, 2015)

I must be spoiled by AGR Points! Those prices dont seem very good for me. I've had the Mac & Cheese &, while good, it's not $10 worth of good! Just my opinion!


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## jebr (May 12, 2015)

If this is being taken system-wide, one suggestion I have is to increase the variety of drink offerings (or at least list them on the menu.) For example, I would much rather have coffee than juice with breakfast, and I'd prefer pop or milk over bottled water for lunch and dinner. Even listing them on the bottom (with pricing information) could be a nice way to upsell those products.

Speaking of which, putting an alcohol selection at the bottom as well could be a very good upsell opportunity for Amtrak, if regulations allow.


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## DryCreek (May 12, 2015)

D.P. Roberts said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> > My friend, Timothy is part of this menu...
> ...


Heh, I see what you did there!


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## Eris (May 12, 2015)

Rail Freak said:


> I must be spoiled by AGR Points! Those prices dont seem very good for me. I've had the Mac & Cheese &, while good, it's not $10 worth of good! Just my opinion!


Value is increased because it includes chicken, salad, and bottled water. The kids-meal version is $7, with only a roll (or with mixed vegetables AND a roll at dinner); adding chicken, side salad, and a bottle of water for $3 more sounds good. Not that $7 for a small bowl of mac'n'cheese is some great deal, mind you.


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## Davids (May 12, 2015)

I am on CS the return trip now. This train does not offer the at seat meal. I asked the car attendant, she said that menu is not offered on all CS trains. It's hit or miss. Bummer, I was planning to order dinner from their menu.


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## CHamilton (May 13, 2015)

From Facebook, re the at-seat menu.



> Timothy Corbett This is a pilot program menu. I am the team leader along with Josh Lynn.
> 
> This is an alternative to the dining car or cafe menu available at your seat. So far the passengers and crew are enjoying it and all the revenue goes the dining car, which needs it. Feel free to contact me with any suggestions or questions.
> 
> ...


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## Palmetto (May 13, 2015)

I think it's a good idea to test this concept, but with simplicity. To my way of thinking, it's going to be a tricky proposition carrying these "meals" between cars, especially at higher speed. To reduce the work load of the coach attendant, it might not be a bad idea to limit the hours of at-seat coach meal service. Maybe that's in the plan already?


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## andersone (May 13, 2015)

We whine because Mother A doesn't try things, we should celebrate when she does !!


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## tommylicious (May 13, 2015)

where exactly are the new menus? the ones online look exactly same as old ones for the most part. shallot sauce changed for 3 peppercorn is about it


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## AmtrakBlue (May 13, 2015)

tommylicious said:


> where exactly are the new menus? the ones online look exactly same as old ones for the most part. shallot sauce changed for 3 peppercorn is about it


The menus are on the specific trains pages (use the Routes tab at the top of the page). When you open a menu, look at the bottom of what would be the back page of the menu (usually the beverages page). You'll see AMT <initials for train> <mmyy> Example: Silver Meteor has AMT SM 0515


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## printman2000 (May 13, 2015)

Or see them all on this page...

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241305537990


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## tommylicious (May 13, 2015)

Yeah all i can see different is 3 peppercorn sauce on the steak instead of the shallot. Shallot probably was better.


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## jebr (May 13, 2015)

Well, reading the past few pages of the thread notes a fair amount of other changes...more listing of "special of the day" (which is matched with amtrakfoodfacts.com,) salmon instead of tilapia, etc.


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## seat38a (May 13, 2015)

So is this supposed to be a version of the "Express Menu" on Amtrak Food Fact or something completely different? Pretty much everything on the menu looks as if it can be made from items in the regular menu items. Amburger with sauce and no buns = salisbury steak? I know some people will complain about the price being too high etc. but the prices seem very reasonable. Especially since bottled water is included as well.


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## Manny T (Jun 10, 2015)

I liked the new salmon entree on the CL last week. It was very, very good. The portion was large and meaty, there was a good lemon-butter sauce served separately, it was NOT too well done, and the sides of baked potato (special request) and mixed veggies were acceptable.

The new "cheesecake" is not an improvement. The old cheesecake was a wedge of real cheesecake with strawberry syrup on top. The new "cheesecake" is a round plastic container of cheesecake-product that is strawberry flavored. Not up to par with what preceded it at dinner imo.


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## Eris (Jun 11, 2015)

My 13yo was very sad about the cheesecake. My 10yo, on the other hand, LOVED the tiramisu, which she'd never heard of before. Not sure where we can duplicate packaged generic tiramisu, and I have a feeling she won't like "good" tiramisu.

13yo agrees with you about the salmon (10yo had steak at every dinner). I liked the salmon very much, too.


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## seat38a (Jun 11, 2015)

New Cheesecake (Taste is whatever. Look is not so pretty):



DSC01251 by Brian H, on Flickr

Much better cheesecake from last year trip:



P1000223 by Brian H, on Flickr


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## fillyjonk (Jun 11, 2015)

Eris said:


> My 13yo was very sad about the cheesecake. My 10yo, on the other hand, LOVED the tiramisu, which she'd never heard of before. Not sure where we can duplicate packaged generic tiramisu, and I have a feeling she won't like "good" tiramisu.
> 
> 13yo agrees with you about the salmon (10yo had steak at every dinner). I liked the salmon very much, too.


The tiramisu on Amtrak is virtually identical (=probably made by the same company) to the frozen Bertolli brand tiramisu, if you can find it. I've seen it at Kroger.


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## neroden (Jun 11, 2015)

The at-seat menu seems nice, except for the following things:

-- my fiancee couldn't eat ANY of it; it's made of dairy

-- there aren't any ingredients lists available for any of it, so I can't eat any of it either.

It is the 21st century. EVERYONE has ingredients lists except Amtrak. Everyone.


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## seat38a (Jun 11, 2015)

neroden said:


> The at-seat menu seems nice, except for the following things:
> 
> -- my fiancee couldn't eat ANY of it; it's made of dairy
> 
> ...


Really EVERYONE?? Try going to couple of your local small businesses and try asking for an ingredient list and see what they say.


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## neroden (Jun 11, 2015)

seat38a said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > The at-seat menu seems nice, except for the following things:
> ...


Obviously, I've actually done this at every small business which sells food in town. *I had to*. Don't talk smack if you don't know what you're talking about. They're all *extremely* polite and helpful.

Businesses will occasionally have one or two products for which they don't know the ingredients -- restaurants which get bread from local bakeries seem to be the worst, since I often have to call the bakery. They know the name & phone number of the bakery and the bakery knows the ingredients, however.


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## Manny T (Jun 11, 2015)

"Seat38a"--I don't know whether to thank you for posting that picture of the "cheesecake" or to cry!

Yes, that is it, in all it's glory.

As someone once said, a picture is worth 1,000 words.


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## fillyjonk (Jun 11, 2015)

I tried the strawberry cheesecake my last trip. I have to admit I liked it. It's not pretty, but, meh....I liked it.


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## mycalpal (Jun 11, 2015)

I noticed a change to all the Dining Car menus. Amtrak is no longer including the beverages, Juice and Coffee with breakfast entrees, choice of coffee, tea or milk, with Lunch and Dinner entrees. It won't affect me as I get these drinks included as a sleeping car passenger but it will add to the bill for coach passengers who pay extra to eat in the dining car. I think its a bad move, the wrong way to raise prices and will probably wind up losing money for the dining car by discouraging coach passengers to eat there.


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## Train2104 (Jun 11, 2015)

Are all the old menus out of rotation yet?On the CL 3 weeks ago one of the four menus on the table was the old one, thus they couldn't charge for breakfast drinks or omelet cheese.


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## seat38a (Jun 11, 2015)

Manny T said:


> "Seat38a"--I don't know whether to thank you for posting that picture of the "cheesecake" or to cry!
> 
> Yes, that is it, in all it's glory.
> 
> As someone once said, a picture is worth 1,000 words.


Here is the PPC version, served with whipped cream. I've noticed presentation is all over the place. In the container, out of the container.



DSC00097 by Brian H, on Flickr


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## seat38a (Jun 11, 2015)

Eris said:


> My 13yo was very sad about the cheesecake. My 10yo, on the other hand, LOVED the tiramisu, which she'd never heard of before. Not sure where we can duplicate packaged generic tiramisu, and I have a feeling she won't like "good" tiramisu.
> 
> 13yo agrees with you about the salmon (10yo had steak at every dinner). I liked the salmon very much, too.


The tiramisu was ok. Here is the PPC version.



DSC00098 by Brian H, on Flickr

I really wish they would bring back some sort of chocolate cake or pie for dessert as an option.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 11, 2015)

I see grits returned to the menu. That means it is time for:



I don't apologize for this. Someone had to do it. ^_^


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## seat38a (Jun 11, 2015)

mycalpal said:


> I noticed a change to all the Dining Car menus. Amtrak is no longer including the beverages, Juice and Coffee with breakfast entrees, choice of coffee, tea or milk, with Lunch and Dinner entrees. It won't affect me as I get these drinks included as a sleeping car passenger but it will add to the bill for coach passengers who pay extra to eat in the dining car. I think its a bad move, the wrong way to raise prices and will probably wind up losing money for the dining car by discouraging coach passengers to eat there.


This was a bit annoying on the trip since we had to be explicit on everything we wanted. Don't expect to be served salad or bread unless you "EXPLICITLY" state that you want to start with them.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 11, 2015)

seat38a said:


> mycalpal said:
> 
> 
> > I noticed a change to all the Dining Car menus. Amtrak is no longer including the beverages, Juice and Coffee with breakfast entrees, choice of coffee, tea or milk, with Lunch and Dinner entrees. It won't affect me as I get these drinks included as a sleeping car passenger but it will add to the bill for coach passengers who pay extra to eat in the dining car. I think its a bad move, the wrong way to raise prices and will probably wind up losing money for the dining car by discouraging coach passengers to eat there.
> ...


A salad was brought to me on the Cardinal w/o my asking. I told him to take it back because I was not going to eat it and did not want to waste it.


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## seat38a (Jun 11, 2015)

AmtrakBlue said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > mycalpal said:
> ...


Inconsistency was the name of the game this last trip. CS Dining Car, CS PPC, EB Dining Car all had their way of doing things.


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## Palmetto (Jun 12, 2015)

fillyjonk said:


> I tried the strawberry cheesecake my last trip. I have to admit I liked it. It's not pretty, but, meh....I liked it.


As one chef told me: "The eyes eat first". In other words, presentation is important, and that poor cheesecake is sight for sore eyes.


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## Manny T (Jun 14, 2015)

I think it all depends where you're starting from. If your reference point is a slice of dense, moist ricotta cheesecake from an Italian pastry shop, or the type of rich New York style cheesecake you get for dessert in a classic steakhouse or a NYC deli, I don't think Amtrak's new industrial-cheesecake-product-served in a plastic container is going to float your boat. Especially after you've just finished your nice Amtrak steak dinner!


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