# EB - Lateness Problems This Summer



## Guest

We are on a late eastbound EB. I had reservations for dinner and a playtonight. Are there any other trains that we can hop on and get to chicago any quicker? It is 10:45am now and we aren't even in Staples MN yet. If this is the best Amtrak can do then I think I will fly next time


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## jebr

Guest said:


> We are on a late eastbound EB. I had reservations for dinner and a playtonight. Are there any other trains that we can hop on and get to chicago any quicker? It is 10:45am now and we aren't even in Staples MN yet. If this is the best Amtrak can do then I think I will fly next time


No other trains that are quicker along that route, sorry.


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## TraneMan

Must be your first time on the Empire Builder?

We tell many people don't plan an event the very same day when you get off the train. There can be delay as you are seeing yourself.

I make our trip day before events we make plans for in Chicago.


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## rusty spike

I just checked Amtrak's National Status Map, showing #8 departing Staple, MN 5 hours 49 min. late. Other than jumping off at the Twin Cities, catching a flight to Chicago, there's no way to make up that much lost time. Amtrak builds a bunch of "recovery" time in their schedules, but not 6 hours worth. Amtrak is having alot of problems with the extreme heat, plus therir normal equipment & seasonal loading problems. Good Luck.


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## Devil's Advocate

I have a friend who is new to Amtrak on this train as well. She had a sleeper but couldn't even board the train at its origin until three hours after scheduled departure. Not a good first impression. Cue all the foaming apologists.


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## the_traveler

I would never schedule something that you have to be at a certain time on the day of arrival on a long distance train!




Even on a plane it's a chance. I remember once flying from Chicago to Providence, RI - and the "flight" took 8 hours! It is normally a 3 hour flight - and it included 3-4 hours on the ground before takeoff due to heavy thunderstorms on the way!





And no, there is no other train you can take from there to Chicago!


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## PRR 60

If you absolutely, positively have to (or really, really want to) get to your dinner and show, you will have to fly from MSP to Chicago. You should get to Amtrak MSP at about 1pm. Delta has a flight with availability out of MSP at 3:59 pm that gets to Chicago O'Hare at 5:33pm (DL 5785). The cost is $205 each all-inclusive. Given it is a Sunday, you should be able to get a cab and be downtown in about 40 minutes. That is maybe not in time for your dinner, but it should work for the show. Expensive, but it's an option.

Second very tight option depending on when you get to MSP: UA 415: 2:23pm MSP - 3:44pm ORD. $266 AI. This may be possible if you have airline status and can use the express line at security.


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## Mackensen

Texas Sunset said:


> I have a friend who is new to Amtrak on this train as well. She had a sleeper but couldn't even board the train at its origin until three hours after scheduled departure. Not a good first impression. Cue all the foaming apologists.


I'll cop to being an apologist, but BNSF had a derailment. Nothing Amtrak can do about that. Might as well blame Greyhound for a crash on an interstate, or airlines for ice. It happens.


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## Steve4031

Even if you fly, it is not wise to plan to attend important/expensive events on the day of arrival. Flights get delayed and canceled too. I am sorry you are inconvenienced. IMHO, jumping of the train, and rushing to the airport, may not guarantee you arriving in time to make your dinner reservations. One thing goes wrong, and you dumped a signifiant additional amount of money down the toilet.

Your best bet is to call the restaurant and see if they will work with you. Call the play house and see if they can work an exchange for you or something.

Good luck.


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## yarrow

the_traveler said:


> I would never schedule something that you have to be at a certain time on the day of arrival on a long distance train!


i just don't think the average person who "thought it would be fun to take the train" understands this. we don't fly much but i have never had a cancelled or late flight. never had a cancelled or late bus. have had quite a few horrendous amtrak delays (an 18 hour delay and a 12 hour delay within the past year). i'm a railfan and i now understand the unreliability of amtrak long distance but will continue riding the train. i don't think the average person does understand


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## the_traveler

I've had a 3 hour flight turn into an 8 hour flight once! We ate dinner (this was back in the "good old days" when airlines served dinner), saw a movie and about 1/2 of a second movie - and this all happened prior to takeoff in Chicago!


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## Devil's Advocate

Mackensen said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a friend who is new to Amtrak on this train as well. She had a sleeper but couldn't even board the train at its origin until three hours after scheduled departure. Not a good first impression. Cue all the foaming apologists.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll cop to being an apologist, but BNSF had a derailment. Nothing Amtrak can do about that. Might as well blame Greyhound for a crash on an interstate, or airlines for ice. It happens.
Click to expand...

It's not something that is fixable just by blaming Amtrak, I think we can all agree on that. That being said, I've seen too many other passenger rail systems that ran like precision clockwork to believe this problem has no possible solution. If we can build the world's largest national highway system and the world's busiest airline market why can't we even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network? I know it will require lots of time, money, and effort, but I still look forward to the day when Americans can begin expecting more from our passenger rail network than they are capable of providing us today. I also wonder if our willingness to accept whatever we're given, and even blame the passengers in some cases, is inadvertently helping to hold us back.


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## NY Penn

the_traveler said:


> I've had a 3 hour flight turn into an 8 hour flight once! We ate dinner (this was back in the "good old days" when airlines served dinner), saw a movie and about 1/2 of a second movie - and this all happened prior to takeoff in Chicago!


What's the point of you repeating the same exact story for the second time in this thread? Besides, the keyword in your post is _once_, as opposed to the almost dependably late EB.


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## rusty spike

yarrow said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never schedule something that you have to be at a certain time on the day of arrival on a long distance train!
> 
> 
> 
> i just don't think the average person who "thought it would be fun to take the train" understands this. we don't fly much but i have never had a cancelled or late flight. never had a cancelled or late bus. have had quite a few horrendous amtrak delays (an 18 hour delay and a 12 hour delay within the past year). i'm a railfan and i now understand the unreliability of amtrak long distance but will continue riding the train. i don't think the average person does understand
Click to expand...

I don't fly much either and have only taken Greyhound a couple of times. I have had several cancelled/delayed flights...I have eaten a meal or 2 (when airlines served food) on the taxi way at ORD (Chicago), missed connections on several other occassions. To the airlines advatage,they can at least put you on a later flight the same day.

My only LD Greyhound trip was many years ago when the "Dog" used to scheduled transcontinental routes such as from LA to New York. Took one of those during the summer from LA as far as St. Louis. It took 3 busses as the first one broke down west of Albuquerque (A/C), the second one in Missouri on I-44 near Rolla (starter motor engaged/burned up). Bus stalled on a grade and --are you ready for this?-- all adult male passengers were invited off the bus to PUSH it backward enough to jump start it! :angry2:

I, too am a railfan and I take Amtrak as much for the journey, as the destination. I understand the other category of Amtrak riders; they want to get from point A to point B in the most economical, comfortable, hassle-free way. Late trains---really, really late trains--bother all of us, but Amtrak is not an exclusive member of the "late" club. :blush: Most polls have Amtrak's CSI at over 80%, while overall airline CSI hovers around 65%. Take US Airways out of the mix, they might reach 80% :excl:


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## the_traveler

Sorry! But "almost dependably late"?



Most every time I've taken the EB, it's been on time or early!



So I would not use "almost dependably late" to describe the EB!


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## guest

NY Penn said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've had a 3 hour flight turn into an 8 hour flight once! We ate dinner (this was back in the "good old days" when airlines served dinner), saw a movie and about 1/2 of a second movie - and this all happened prior to takeoff in Chicago!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the point of you repeating the same exact story for the second time in this thread? Besides, the keyword in your post is _once_, as opposed to the almost dependably late EB.
Click to expand...

You are so right, along with others who point out that while airlines and buses have delays from time to time, there is nothing like Amtrak, which builds in incredible amounts of padding into schedules and even then has problems maintaining the artificially-slow schedule. Yes, a lot of it is out of the hands of Amtrak: recalcitrant dispatchers working for the railroads, bad equipment, inconsistent quality of employees. But let's not pretend that other modes of travel have near the percentage delays that Amtrak does.

Amtrak should put a big disclaimer in its timetables to the effect that passengers should not plan 100% on making any connection or enjoying any activity scheduled within 12 hours of a published arrival time! I mean, isn't that what the Traveler and other slavish apologists for Amtrak essentially say over and over each time someone, usually new to the Amtrak mode of travel, posts about a terrible delay and ruined travel plans??

And to think that at Time Life, for whom I once worked, plates for the weekly magazines would be put on the 20th Century Limited to the Chicago printing plants because airlines were too unreliable!!!! How times change!!


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## NY Penn

Your experience is just that, your experience. As I believe you said in another thread, a train could be on time one day, and 6 hours late the next. So unless you ride the EB every day (I doubt that, since it doesn't serve KIN (yet



)), long-term averages are more statistically valuable.

Over the last 4 weeks, the EB has been an average of 162 minutes late arriving in Chicago. It's been on time exactly twice. So a passenger has a 2/25 (some days are missing), or 8% chance of arriving on time.

So yes, a train that averages two-and-a-half hours late is "almost dependably late".


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## Guest

Thanks for all the helpful information esp. on the flights. I have called and canceled our dinner and made arrangments with the play house for a future show next time in chi. I too understand late trains, but 5 hours or more consistently is pretty bad since they dont have flooding to blame. I dont think the guy that sat on the runway for 8 hours knows much about the EB or at least doesnt ride trains to much


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## Swadian Hardcore

Guest said:


> Thanks for all the helpful information esp. on the flights. I have called and canceled our dinner and made arrangments with the play house for a future show next time in chi. I too understand late trains, but 5 hours or more consistently is pretty bad since they dont have flooding to blame. I dont think the guy that sat on the runway for 8 hours knows much about the EB or at least doesnt ride trains to much


Does anybody know why the train got so late? The EB is usually not so late. If your talking about Dave (the Traveller) I think he has taken the EB and many other Amtrak trains before. He does like to joke a lot, though, IMHO.


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## NY Penn

IIRC There was a derailment in Montana.


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## Swadian Hardcore

NY Penn said:


> IIRC There was a derailment in Montana.


Yeah, that's not Amtrak's fault.


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## Mackensen

Texas Sunset said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a friend who is new to Amtrak on this train as well. She had a sleeper but couldn't even board the train at its origin until three hours after scheduled departure. Not a good first impression. Cue all the foaming apologists.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll cop to being an apologist, but BNSF had a derailment. Nothing Amtrak can do about that. Might as well blame Greyhound for a crash on an interstate, or airlines for ice. It happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not something that is fixable just by blaming Amtrak, I think we can all agree on that. That being said, I've seen too many other passenger rail systems that ran like precision clockwork to believe this problem has no possible solution. If we can build the world's largest national highway system and the world's busiest airline market why can't we even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network? I know it will require lots of time, money, and effort, but I still look forward to the day when Americans can begin expecting more from our passenger rail network than they are capable of providing us today. I also wonder if our willingness to accept whatever we're given, and even blame the passengers in some cases, is inadvertently helping to hold us back.
Click to expand...

"Foaming apologists" isn't a great way to start a dialogue, but whatever. I don't think accepting what we're given is holding anything back. I think the choice to the national level to invest in the highways and air transportation system over the passenger system is what's holding us back. The very policy choices that made those two things function so well is responsible for the state of the passenger system. It's a zero-sum game. It's not an accident that the private sector passenger system fell apart as those two developed. It's not that we can't build a great passenger system. It's that we haven't, because we've done other things.

What all this has to do with an accident causing a delay I have no idea. I can assure you I've been delayed on European trains as well, despite their billions in investment.


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## PJnVA

My very first train adventure in March included the Empire Builder EB PDX to CHI we were 4+ hours late into CHI and missed our connection to WAS. Amtrak put us up for the night and we caught the Capital Limited the next day. I missed a day of work because of the delay but hey I got an extra day of vacation. .

Keeping that experience in mind I planned Adventure Part 2 with a planned arrival back to WAS on Saturday in case of another 24 hour delay.


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## zephyr17

PJnVA said:


> My very first train adventure in March included the Empire Builder EB PDX to CHI we were 4+ hours late into CHI and missed our connection to WAS. Amtrak put us up for the night and we caught the Capital Limited the next day. I missed a day of work because of the delay but hey I got an extra day of vacation. .
> 
> Keeping that experience in mind I planned Adventure Part 2 with a planned arrival back to WAS on Saturday in case of another 24 hour delay.


Unfortunately, I have learned to always build a 1 day layover connecting from LD to LD, with a few exceptions (I will book a 3 to 14 same day transfer at LA, given 3s generally good timekeeping record).

However, I have booked a connection from the Empire Builder to the Hoosier State in December. Since that is a short distance run, I don't have a roomette I am trying to protect. I have to say, though, with the travails of the Builder lately, I am not sure I made the right decision. Typically when going to Indianapolis I rent a car in Chicago and drive, for reasons that have to do more with the Hoosier State than worrying about the connection. But I didn't want to have a 180 mile drive in possible winter weather.


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## AutoTrDvr

the_traveler said:


> I would never schedule something that you have to be at a certain time on the day of arrival on a long distance train!
> 
> 
> 
> Even on a plane it's a chance. I remember once flying from Chicago to Providence, RI - and the "flight" took 8 hours! It is normally a 3 hour flight - and it included 3-4 hours on the ground before takeoff due to heavy thunderstorms on the way!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no, there is no other train you can take from there to Chicago!


Precisely! Even a short flight from EWR-->BOS had it's issues one evening, thanks to the weather. I had reservations for 6pm at "Top of the Hub," above the "Pru Center" in Boston. I kept having to call them to delay, delay, delay. They were extremely nice, and held my place until I arrived at 10pm. It may have helped that it was a Friday, and the bar was still active (i.e lounge singer was still singing, etc.).

If I have to schedule connections, I allow at least a day or two between them if possible. I'd definitely do this for my Amtrak " 'Round the Country" tour.


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## Texan Eagle

AutoTrDvr said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never schedule something that you have to be at a certain time on the day of arrival on a long distance train!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even on a plane it's a chance. I remember once flying from Chicago to Providence, RI - and the "flight" took 8 hours! It is normally a 3 hour flight - and it included 3-4 hours on the ground before takeoff due to heavy thunderstorms on the way!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no, there is no other train you can take from there to Chicago!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I have to schedule connections, I allow at least a day or two between them if possible. I'd definitely do this for my Amtrak " 'Round the Country" tour.
Click to expand...

Wow folks here so casually say add a day or two. People seem to have a ton of free time at hand. No wonder most people think only retired and jobless people take Amtrak. Do you guys realize for students attending college and employees with a job a whole extra day is a big deal. I don't know fans of which other means of transport think this is reasonable. I fly internationally quite often and I don't schedule an extra day between connections. In twenty flights on two years, long international flights more than ten hours long, I have comfortably made every connection with only a two or three hour layover. I have takenGreyhound and Megabus and made one hour connections. So based on one example from several years ago don't say all means of transport need a padding of a whole day. We all like Amtrak but you gotta agree the LDs are way more unreliable when out comes to keeping time compared to others. Don't try to justify it to new comers with illogical analogies.


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## AutoTrDvr

Texan Eagle said:


> Wow folks here so casually say add a day or two. People seem to have a ton of free time at hand. No wonder most people think only retired and jobless people take Amtrak. Do you guys realize for students attending college and employees with a job a whole extra day is a big deal. I don't know fans of which other means of transport think this is reasonable. I fly internationally quite often and I don't schedule an extra day between connections. In twenty flights on two years, long international flights more than ten hours long, I have comfortably made every connection with only a two or three hour layover. I have taken Greyhound and Megabus and made one hour connections. So based on one example from several years ago don't say all means of transport need a padding of a whole day. We all like Amtrak but you gotta agree the LDs are way more unreliable when out comes to keeping time compared to others. Don't try to justify it to new comers with illogical analogies.


I said, "if possible." If I have the time, I take it. If not, I try to take the alternative of "least risk." Usually, I can find the time. Why subject one's self to unnecessary risk?

I, too, have done my share of international travel to even longer distances in Asia and the South Pacific. Not only does the 1-2 day layovers help with unforeseen "lateness" issues, but even if everything is running on time, it's just good to take a break in between travel segments. Plus, I get to tour a little of the destination city.


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## yarrow

Texan Eagle said:


> Wow folks here so casually say add a day or two. People seem to have a ton of free time at hand.


i have wondered at that too. until i retired last winter it was a real problem riding amtrak as we wanted to pack in as much trip as possible into limited time off without ever having great confidence that amtrak would uphold their end of the bargain. i can't recommend amtrak to friends as they are used to travel modalities that you don't have to build in an extra day or two


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## Devil's Advocate

Mackensen said:


> I think the choice [at] the national level to invest in the highways and air transportation system over the passenger system is what's holding us back. The very policy choices that made those two things function so well is responsible for the state of the passenger system. It's a zero-sum game.


By that logic countries which have built far more modern passenger rail networks should be suffering seriously deficient passenger air markets and poorly maintained roadway systems. A few certainly do, but many do not. Some have even better roadway networks and air services than we do, though they are on a much smaller scale. Most passenger rail networks have had to fight off improving competition from planes, buses, and private vehicles just like Amtrak has. Some came out ahead and some did not, but there is no passenger rail network I'm aware of that improved their position relative to other methods simply by treading water decade after decade as everything else improved over time.



Mackensen said:


> It's not an accident that the private sector passenger system fell apart as those two developed. It's not that we can't build a great passenger system. It's that we haven't, because we've done other things.


The earliest purpose-built high speed passenger rail systems began appearing a half century ago. What "other things" has America been doing during Amtrak's forty years of existence that would come close to explaining our ever growing performance discrepancy? Although I agree that this does play a role I do not believe that we've been building enough new roads and opening enough new airports to explain this away.



Mackensen said:


> I can assure you I've been delayed on European trains as well, despite their billions in investment.


I cannot think of a single transportation method that is never late and requires no padding whatsoever. However, that's not the root of the issue here. The issue for me is the _amount_ of padding and the _routine_ nature of the delays. I would expect to see this improve over time instead of stagnate or worsen as seems to be the case today.


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## AlanB

Texas Sunset said:


> If we can build the world's largest national highway system and the world's busiest airline market why can't we even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network? I know it will require lots of time, money, and effort, but I still look forward to the day when Americans can begin expecting more from our passenger rail network than they are capable of providing us today. I also wonder if our willingness to accept whatever we're given, and even blame the passengers in some cases, is inadvertently helping to hold us back.


Actually, we did build the world's most robust rail passenger network.

Then in the era of cheap flights and cheap roads, we ripped out much of that network and only now are we realizing that was a mistake.


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## EB_OBS

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the helpful information esp. on the flights. I have called and canceled our dinner and made arrangments with the play house for a future show next time in chi. I too understand late trains, but 5 hours or more consistently is pretty bad since they dont have flooding to blame. I dont think the guy that sat on the runway for 8 hours knows much about the EB or at least doesnt ride trains to much
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody know why the train got so late? The EB is usually not so late. If your talking about Dave (the Traveller) I think he has taken the EB and many other Amtrak trains before. He does like to joke a lot, though, IMHO.
Click to expand...

There have been several derailments on the highline, at least two, in the last few weeks. There was a derailment near Pasco, WA There is quite a bit of track work underway curreently, especially east of Minot, ND on the BNSF and further east on the CP.

There are heat restrictions on several routes. Heat restrictions reduce train speed significantly. On the highline, the Empire Builder is currently limited to 60MPH if under a heat restriction and freights are limited to 40MPH. If on single track and behind a freight, then the EB is moving at half it's optimal speed.

There was a trespasser fatality at Cashmere, WA which cost an already late Builder another 4 hours delay. This rolled into a pretty late #8 departing SEA and thus SPK.

On one occasion SEA held #8 to replace a broken bolster spring on a sleeper car as there was no other sleeper to replace it with and the train was sold-out. Twice in the last few weeks Chicago mechanical has replaced a diner car late, very near normal departure from the yard. A fully loaded and ready diner then has to be unloaded, stripped, and then once another diner is in place it now has to be reloaded. It's a time consuming process.

I agree Amtrak has it's problems. The recent performance of the Empire Builder though is much more the fault of BNSF problems, severe heat in the mid-west, CP and BNSF track work and people who just can't seem to stay off the tracks. The equipment problems are Amtrak's but they are compounded and made much more severe when the train is already arriving very late, shortening and/or even eliminating the normal amount of time that Amtrak has to fix the equipment.

What still baffles me though is how many people just don't understand at all the nature of rail travel. The route and rails are fixed. There are very few opportunities for a detour around a situation like a derailment. Even when there are detour options, those still can and do add several hours due to operating rules and crew qualifications and many times the tracks aren't suited to typical passenger train operation. Unfortunately, much of the highline is single track. When the track is blocked by a derailment or a broken down freight train, nothing else gets thru until it's fixed. This can take 10 or 12 hours for a derailment, or longer.

Amtrak needs equipment. It definitely needs some more sleeper cars to protect service. It is a real pain in the ass when a sleeper car is Bad Ordered on what is a sold-out train. It's a pain in the ass for me, it's generally a horrible experience for the passenger especially those first time riders whose now only Amtrak experience starts out so poorly. If the Empire Builder had one more trainset then even very late trains would not have to be terminated in Spokane, thus inconveniencing and irritating the passengers even more than they already are. This equipment would arrive in Seattle and Portland and have more than 24 hours to repair, clean and service. There would also generally be sufficient time for inbound trains to provide protect equipment for cars still in need of repair.

Another thing that gets me is seeing, hearing and reading so many demands for Amtrak to improve performance issues, yet it seems no one wants to pay for it. When congress and the republicans want the American people to think that Amtrak consumes huge amounts of the annual federal budget. When in reality it's pocket change in the big picture. Eliminating Amtrak entirely will do NOTHING to alleviate our debt woes. Doubling Amrak's funding could be accomplished by eliminating the study of the mating practices of the female bovine and/or other such stupid crap people manage to get federal tax dollars for. The average passenger is clueless to Amtrak's funding issues. The railfans generally understand and promote, advocate and write congress to increase Amtrak funding. It seems to me most of the general public at large is indifferent while most politicians stick to partisan lines but even they don't seem to have a clue most times. Many just don't get it.


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## EB_OBS

AlanB said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we can build the world's largest national highway system and the world's busiest airline market why can't we even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network? I know it will require lots of time, money, and effort, but I still look forward to the day when Americans can begin expecting more from our passenger rail network than they are capable of providing us today. I also wonder if our willingness to accept whatever we're given, and even blame the passengers in some cases, is inadvertently helping to hold us back.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, we did build the world's most robust rail passenger network.
> 
> Then in the era of cheap flights and cheap roads, we ripped out much of that network and only now are we realizing that was a mistake.
Click to expand...


I've read that at the peak, the US had over 400,000 miles of rail. Today there is less than 250,000 miles. That's a lot of track ripped up.


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## Eric S

EB_OBS said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we can build the world's largest national highway system and the world's busiest airline market why can't we even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network? I know it will require lots of time, money, and effort, but I still look forward to the day when Americans can begin expecting more from our passenger rail network than they are capable of providing us today. I also wonder if our willingness to accept whatever we're given, and even blame the passengers in some cases, is inadvertently helping to hold us back.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, we did build the world's most robust rail passenger network.
> 
> Then in the era of cheap flights and cheap roads, we ripped out much of that network and only now are we realizing that was a mistake.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've read that at the peak, the US had over 400,000 miles of rail. Today there is less than 250,000 miles. That's a lot of track ripped up.
Click to expand...

I think your figures are for route-kilometers rather than route-miles, but your point still remains. If someone has definitive numbers, please correct me.


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## WhoozOn1st

Texas Sunset said:


> If we can build the world's largest national highway system and the world's busiest airline market why can't we even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network?


The missing ingredient, without which so many things cannot be done, is political will. I've read the other posts in this thread that focus on this question, and for the most part they're quite good. But there's little in them about the real cause of passenger rail falling and remaining chronically behind other modes (air, highway). EB_OBS comes closest when he talks about unwillingness to pay, which is the direct effect of the lack of political will.

Air and road modes grew to their current proportions and achieved predominant status because of the political will behind them that caused massive expenditures, even as the lack of sufficient political will on the rail side of the ledger caused atrophy across the board. Until this situation is reversed - not balanced, but reversed - it will remain impossible to "even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network."


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## Ispolkom

This site gives the peak 1916 mileage at 254k miles.

The American Association of Railroads says that there are 139k miles of railroad presently, and I think they should know.

What's the definition of railroad mileage, though? Do sidings count? Yards? I don't know.

I do know that there used to be a third railroad that went between the Twin Cities and Washington state. It's a shame that went away.


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## Eric S

Ispolkom said:


> This site gives the peak 1916 mileage at 254k miles.
> 
> The American Association of Railroads says that there are 139k miles of railroad presently, and I think they should know.
> 
> What's the definition of railroad mileage, though? Do sidings count? Yards? I don't know.
> 
> I do know that there used to be a third railroad that went between the Twin Cities and Washington state. It's a shame that went away.


254,000 miles is about 400,000 kilometers, and 139,000 miles is about 225,000 kilometers, so it looks like our numbers are similar. I'm almost positive this is route-miles/route-kilometers, rather than track-miles/track-kilometers, so sidings, double/triple-track, yards, etc., would not be counted.

Yes, the old Milwaukee Road (CMStP&P), with its long stretches of electrified territory in ID, MT, and WA.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

EB_OBS said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the helpful information esp. on the flights. I have called and canceled our dinner and made arrangments with the play house for a future show next time in chi. I too understand late trains, but 5 hours or more consistently is pretty bad since they dont have flooding to blame. I dont think the guy that sat on the runway for 8 hours knows much about the EB or at least doesnt ride trains to much
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody know why the train got so late? The EB is usually not so late. If your talking about Dave (the Traveller) I think he has taken the EB and many other Amtrak trains before. He does like to joke a lot, though, IMHO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There have been several derailments on the highline, at least two, in the last few weeks. There was a derailment near Pasco, WA There is quite a bit of track work underway curreently, especially east of Minot, ND on the BNSF and further east on the CP.
> 
> There are heat restrictions on several routes. Heat restrictions reduce train speed significantly. On the highline, the Empire Builder is currently limited to 60MPH if under a heat restriction and freights are limited to 40MPH. If on single track and behind a freight, then the EB is moving at half it's optimal speed.
> 
> There was a trespasser fatality at Cashmere, WA which cost an already late Builder another 4 hours delay. This rolled into a pretty late #8 departing SEA and thus SPK.
> 
> On one occasion SEA held #8 to replace a broken bolster spring on a sleeper car as there was no other sleeper to replace it with and the train was sold-out. Twice in the last few weeks Chicago mechanical has replaced a diner car late, very near normal departure from the yard. A fully loaded and ready diner then has to be unloaded, stripped, and then once another diner is in place it now has to be reloaded. It's a time consuming process.
Click to expand...

What in the world? So many problems on the EB? Looks like my favourite train is going through some very bad luck.


----------



## Mackensen

WhoozOn1st said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we can build the world's largest national highway system and the world's busiest airline market why can't we even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network?
> 
> 
> 
> The missing ingredient, without which so many things cannot be done, is political will. I've read the other posts in this thread that focus on this question, and for the most part they're quite good. But there's little in them about the real cause of passenger rail falling and remaining chronically behind other modes (air, highway). EB_OBS comes closest when he talks about unwillingness to pay, which is the direct effect of the lack of political will.
> 
> Air and road modes grew to their current proportions and achieved predominant status because of the political will behind them that caused massive expenditures, even as the lack of sufficient political will on the rail side of the ledger caused atrophy across the board. Until this situation is reversed - not balanced, but reversed - it will remain impossible to "even come close to building the world's most robust passenger rail network."
Click to expand...

I suspect an important cause, not mentioned yet, is that when other countries were building out these systems the railroad infrastructure in this country remained in private hands. We didn't nationalize on the European model (still haven't). It's a different development path but it matters, because a direct subsidy (Amtrak) is more obvious and more controversial than an indirect subsidy (airports for airlines, roads for bus companies).


----------



## Ispolkom

Texan Eagle said:


> Wow folks here so casually say add a day or two. People seem to have a ton of free time at hand. No wonder most people think only retired and jobless people take Amtrak. Do you guys realize for students attending college and employees with a job a whole extra day is a big deal. I don't know fans of which other means of transport think this is reasonable.


It really doesn't matter what I think is reasonable. What matters is what I think is prudent. I was in the OP's position a couple of years ago and had to turn back opera tickets a couple of years ago because #8 was too late into Chicago to allow me to attend. After that I'll never book #8 from St. Paul to Chicago and plan on attending the theater the night of arrival.

I don't like the fact that western long-distance trains can be very late. Here's the thing, though: it doesn't matter what I like. It really doesn't matter whether it's Amtrak's fault, or the host railroad's, or it's the fault of some idiot at a grade crossing, I can whine and complain about a late train until I'm blue in the face, but that isn't going to change the train's on-time performance, or the fact that (in my case) I'm going to miss "Porgy and Bess."

I find it much more efficient to conform my expectations to the reality I face. If that means I get to Toronto two days early to make sure I connect to The Canadian, I do that, and enjoy a couple of days in a wonderful, cosmopolitan city when my train is on time. If that means I arrive in Chicago earlier, I get to visit Sue at the Field Museum, or see old favorites at the Art Institute when my train is on time. If I don't have the time, I fly, but as others have written, that's not always perfect, either.


----------



## RRUserious

Ispolkom said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow folks here so casually say add a day or two. People seem to have a ton of free time at hand. No wonder most people think only retired and jobless people take Amtrak. Do you guys realize for students attending college and employees with a job a whole extra day is a big deal. I don't know fans of which other means of transport think this is reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> It really doesn't matter what I think is reasonable. What matters is what I think is prudent. I was in the OP's position a couple of years ago and had to turn back opera tickets a couple of years ago because #8 was too late into Chicago to allow me to attend. After that I'll never book #8 from St. Paul to Chicago and plan on attending the theater the night of arrival.
> 
> I don't like the fact that western long-distance trains can be very late. Here's the thing, though: it doesn't matter what I like. It really doesn't matter whether it's Amtrak's fault, or the host railroad's, or it's the fault of some idiot at a grade crossing, I can whine and complain about a late train until I'm blue in the face, but that isn't going to change the train's on-time performance, or the fact that (in my case) I'm going to miss "Porgy and Bess."
> 
> I find it much more efficient to conform my expectations to the reality I face. If that means I get to Toronto two days early to make sure I connect to The Canadian, I do that, and enjoy a couple of days in a wonderful, cosmopolitan city when my train is on time. If that means I arrive in Chicago earlier, I get to visit Sue at the Field Museum, or see old favorites at the Art Institute when my train is on time. If I don't have the time, I fly, but as others have written, that's not always perfect, either.
Click to expand...

Agree with this guy. Either make realistic plans or don't book on the Empire Builder. Either one is a good solution.


----------



## Hawkeye

Yeah, I would love to ride the EB someday, but I just switched my trip to the CZ on the Chicago leg of my trip back east in less than 2 weeks.


----------



## Texan Eagle

RRUserious said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow folks here so casually say add a day or two. People seem to have a ton of free time at hand. No wonder most people think only retired and jobless people take Amtrak. Do you guys realize for students attending college and employees with a job a whole extra day is a big deal. I don't know fans of which other means of transport think this is reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> It really doesn't matter what I think is reasonable. What matters is what I think is prudent. I was in the OP's position a couple of years ago and had to turn back opera tickets a couple of years ago because #8 was too late into Chicago to allow me to attend. After that I'll never book #8 from St. Paul to Chicago and plan on attending the theater the night of arrival.
> 
> I don't like the fact that western long-distance trains can be very late. Here's the thing, though: it doesn't matter what I like. It really doesn't matter whether it's Amtrak's fault, or the host railroad's, or it's the fault of some idiot at a grade crossing, I can whine and complain about a late train until I'm blue in the face, but that isn't going to change the train's on-time performance, or the fact that (in my case) I'm going to miss "Porgy and Bess."
> 
> I find it much more efficient to conform my expectations to the reality I face. If that means I get to Toronto two days early to make sure I connect to The Canadian, I do that, and enjoy a couple of days in a wonderful, cosmopolitan city when my train is on time. If that means I arrive in Chicago earlier, I get to visit Sue at the Field Museum, or see old favorites at the Art Institute when my train is on time. If I don't have the time, I fly, but as others have written, that's not always perfect, either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agree with this guy. Either make realistic plans or don't book on the Empire Builder. Either one is a good solution.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, in which case, Amtrak should inform their travelers before they pay for their tickets that this is the case. "*Hey potential passenger, this train runs on BNSF tracks who have the habit of putting freight trains down and/or bad scheduling. Moreover we have old rickety equipment that might be bad ordered anytime further delaying the train. Please make sure you have an extra day off available before booking this trip*" This would give realistic idea to first-time travelers who are unfortunately not as intelligent as members of this forum and generally book a trip under the assumption that this is 2012, not 1860s, so the thing they are booking will fairly reliably reach when it is supposed to reach, barring some rare event once in a blue moon.


----------



## hoosier st

I'm on the 8 and we're about 4hrs late. Assuming I miss my connection to crawfordsville, IN on the 851, anybody know the chances that they will just rent a car for me instead of putting me overnight in CHI?


----------



## MrFSS

Texan Eagle said:


> This would give realistic idea to first-time travelers who are unfortunately not as intelligent as members of this forum and generally book a trip under the assumption that this is 2012, not 1860s, so the thing they are booking will fairly reliably reach when it is supposed to reach, barring some rare event once in a blue moon.


Ha - passenger trains were probably more on time in the 1860's than they are today.


----------



## guest

Texan Eagle said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow folks here so casually say add a day or two. People seem to have a ton of free time at hand. No wonder most people think only retired and jobless people take Amtrak. Do you guys realize for students attending college and employees with a job a whole extra day is a big deal. I don't know fans of which other means of transport think this is reasonable.
> 
> 
> 
> It really doesn't matter what I think is reasonable. What matters is what I think is prudent. I was in the OP's position a couple of years ago and had to turn back opera tickets a couple of years ago because #8 was too late into Chicago to allow me to attend. After that I'll never book #8 from St. Paul to Chicago and plan on attending the theater the night of arrival.
> 
> I don't like the fact that western long-distance trains can be very late. Here's the thing, though: it doesn't matter what I like. It really doesn't matter whether it's Amtrak's fault, or the host railroad's, or it's the fault of some idiot at a grade crossing, I can whine and complain about a late train until I'm blue in the face, but that isn't going to change the train's on-time performance, or the fact that (in my case) I'm going to miss "Porgy and Bess."
> 
> I find it much more efficient to conform my expectations to the reality I face. If that means I get to Toronto two days early to make sure I connect to The Canadian, I do that, and enjoy a couple of days in a wonderful, cosmopolitan city when my train is on time. If that means I arrive in Chicago earlier, I get to visit Sue at the Field Museum, or see old favorites at the Art Institute when my train is on time. If I don't have the time, I fly, but as others have written, that's not always perfect, either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agree with this guy. Either make realistic plans or don't book on the Empire Builder. Either one is a good solution.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fair enough, in which case, Amtrak should inform their travelers before they pay for their tickets that this is the case. "*Hey potential passenger, this train runs on BNSF tracks who have the habit of putting freight trains down and/or bad scheduling. Moreover we have old rickety equipment that might be bad ordered anytime further delaying the train. Please make sure you have an extra day off available before booking this trip*" This would give realistic idea to first-time travelers who are unfortunately not as intelligent as members of this forum and generally book a trip under the assumption that this is 2012, not 1860s, so the thing they are booking will fairly reliably reach when it is supposed to reach, barring some rare event once in a blue moon.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right but you are never going to persuade the extreme Amtrak apologists on this forum. They will never concede that long-distance western trains are either for largely for economically poor people--who sit up in seats for 2-3 days--or for the wealthy and/or retired with time on their hands (or those with time on their hands who spend oodles of times accumulating AGR points so they can pretend they can afford to travel expensively.)


----------



## Ispolkom

Texan Eagle said:


> Fair enough, in which case, Amtrak should inform their travelers before they pay for their tickets that this is the case. "*Hey potential passenger, this train runs on BNSF tracks who have the habit of putting freight trains down and/or bad scheduling. Moreover we have old rickety equipment that might be bad ordered anytime further delaying the train. Please make sure you have an extra day off available before booking this trip*" This would give realistic idea to first-time travelers who are unfortunately not as intelligent as members of this forum and generally book a trip under the assumption that this is 2012, not 1860s, so the thing they are booking will fairly reliably reach when it is supposed to reach, barring some rare event once in a blue moon.


I'll let you get Amtrak to do that. I'm sure that would happen soon after every food-styled advertisement carries the warning label "our food doesn't look this good in real life," and every photo-shopped fashion ad lets us know "people don't look this good in our clothes in real life." Me, I stick to worrying about things that I can actually change. Like the guy behind me last Saturday who talked during the first act of "Don Giovanni."



> Ha - passenger trains were probably more on time in the 1860's than they are today.


 I certainly hope so, if they were traveling on one-track lines protected only by timetables.


----------



## OBS

hoosier st said:


> I'm on the 8 and we're about 4hrs late. Assuming I miss my connection to crawfordsville, IN on the 851, anybody know the chances that they will just rent a car for me instead of putting me overnight in CHI?


If they don't hold the train, highly unlikely, I would say 95% chance you will get taxi/van ride to CRF.


----------



## Texan Eagle

Ispolkom said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough, in which case, Amtrak should inform their travelers before they pay for their tickets that this is the case. "*Hey potential passenger, this train runs on BNSF tracks who have the habit of putting freight trains down and/or bad scheduling. Moreover we have old rickety equipment that might be bad ordered anytime further delaying the train. Please make sure you have an extra day off available before booking this trip*" This would give realistic idea to first-time travelers who are unfortunately not as intelligent as members of this forum and generally book a trip under the assumption that this is 2012, not 1860s, so the thing they are booking will fairly reliably reach when it is supposed to reach, barring some rare event once in a blue moon.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll let you get Amtrak to do that. I'm sure that would happen soon after every food-styled advertisement carries the warning label "our food doesn't look this good in real life," and every photo-shopped fashion ad lets us know "people don't look this good in our clothes in real life." Me, I stick to worrying about things that I can actually change. Like the guy behind me last Saturday who talked during the first act of "Don Giovanni."
Click to expand...

I don't know how fair is it to compare FMCG adverts with transportation, but I can give you a closer example- if you go to Southwest Airlines website, on the page where it shows which flights are available for your route, it includes a feature that if you hover your mouse over the flight number it shows On time performance record- what % of times the flight reached on time, what % of times it was delayed from 0-30 minutes and when how many times was it delayed more than that. Amtrak should provide this information upfront to let the passenger make an informed choice. In spite of doing this if the passenger "hates Amtrak" for the delay and vows "never to take the train again", it is his/her own fault, I won't blame Amtrak for it. Yes, currently Amtrak does show in one corner of the site the on-time performance of all trains, but still it does not say when a train is delayed, *how much* it gets delayed. It only shows the on-time performance percentage. Any time the train did not reach on time it goes under "late" category, may it be half hour or eight hours. For example, if at the time of booking it showed "*This train runs late by 4-6 hours"* a potential passenger would know what he/she is signing up for.


----------



## RRUserious

4 hours 2 minutes late today. Some people missed connections. Incredible. Ontime performance for train 8 in June is 0%. 12 month is 38.7.


----------



## guest

RRUserious said:


> 4 hours 2 minutes late today. Some people missed connections. Incredible. Ontime performance for train 8 in June is 0%. 12 month is 38.7.


Here's a solution! Amtrak should pad the schedule by 4 hours! Then the train will actually comes in "on time" a large percentage of the time, and the normal public i.e. not anyone on this forum  will think that Amtrak can make the trains run to schedule!! It's not earthshaking; it's just making the already substantial amount of padding more realistic!! :lol:


----------



## EB_OBS

RRUserious said:


> 4 hours 2 minutes late today. Some people missed connections. Incredible. Ontime performance for train 8 in June is 0%. 12 month is 38.7.


This trainset has been behind schedule since it left Chicago on July 5th. It left Chicago 2 hours 9 minutes late due to switching out a diner and HEP problems. It was over 4 hours late by Havre, MT. It finally arrived into Seattle over 3 hours late.

That trainset turns for train #8 of the 7th. With the late arrival of #7 and then the repair of the broken bolster spring on the sleeper car, this train departed Seattle 3 hours 13 minutes late. It looks like heat restrictions and the resulting traffic kept if from ever making up any time. At one point it did get to 5 hours and 5 minutes late leaving St Cloud, MN.

Let's see how well it gets out of town tomorrow.


----------



## RRUserious

I was waiting for the June percentage after I missed my Chicago connection. People refused to believe the 9 percent record I cited from May. So to see that June was 0 just confirms that it is in a total fail scenario. Lotsa reasons I suppose, but it reinforces the notion that some people, the ones with earlier connections, are very likely to miss them and should travel with that in mind. My experience is that they are finishing their trip on the bus. Practically every trip.


----------



## AlanB

guest said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4 hours 2 minutes late today. Some people missed connections. Incredible. Ontime performance for train 8 in June is 0%. 12 month is 38.7.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a solution! Amtrak should pad the schedule by 4 hours! Then the train will actually comes in "on time" a large percentage of the time, and the normal public i.e. not anyone on this forum  will think that Amtrak can make the trains run to schedule!! It's not earthshaking; it's just making the already substantial amount of padding more realistic!! :lol:
Click to expand...

As I pointed out quite recently, not sure if it was in this thread or another one, about 10 years ago the Sunset Limited was always running late. Very late.

So Amtrak got together with Union Pacific & CSX and they added a combined 10.5 hours of padding to the schedule, most of it on the UP side.

The host RR's just gobbled up that extra time and didn't care a bit. So the train still ran 10 hours late very often. And many times it ran even later than that. Probably an average of 1 every two months, Amtrak actually had to annul the eastbound Sunset in New Orleans in order to have an almost on time westbound the next day.

Adding padding just gives the host's more time to delay the train.


----------



## Jean

I would like to offer congratulations and commiserations to EB-OBS, who, I am guessing, has to deal with the fall-out of these problems, none of which are of his making. Then he finds time and mental energy to contribute sane and useful information to this forum.


----------



## montana mike

I see 3 of the 4 current EB's are running anywhere from 3 to 5 hours late again today. Even with the occasional turn arounds in Spokane recently the tardiness appears to be perpetuating itself. I know this is frustrating to all. I will be on the EB three times over the next five weeks and am now adjusting my travel connections and hotels accordingly to ensure I have sufficient time to interconnect with my other modes of travel after my arrivals in Chicago.

Travel in any mode these days seems to be quite an adventure!


----------



## fairviewroad

RRUserious said:


> So to see that June was 0 just confirms that it is in a total fail scenario.


Well, June may have been "0" but it's a bit much to call it a "total fail scenario." I'll admit this is but ONE data point,

but I rode the EB in June from SEA to GFK. We left SEA on time, and were never more than 45 minutes late the entire

way to GFK, with eventual arrival in GFK a grand total of 33 minutes late. Total fail? Not for me.


----------



## montana mike

fairviewroad said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> So to see that June was 0 just confirms that it is in a total fail scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, June may have been "0" but it's a bit much to call it a "total fail scenario." I'll admit this is but ONE data point,
> 
> but I rode the EB in June from SEA to GFK. We left SEA on time, and were never more than 45 minutes late the entire
> 
> way to GFK, with eventual arrival in GFK a grand total of 33 minutes late. Total fail? Not for me.
Click to expand...

You were on one of the few that made decent time. I rode the EB several times over the past couple months. One was "only" 48 minutes late into CHI the others were anywhere from 2 to 4 hours late. I agree it is not always late, just most of the time, but the point most people in this thread are trying to make is the schedule as laid out is no longer valid for most trips and people should plan, especially if they are taking the EB a long distance, on building in the reality of delayed arrivals and NOT try to make connections based on scheduled arrivals, but rather to the average arrival time, which for example in CHI is realistically after 6 PM most days.


----------



## railbuck

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What in the world? So many problems on the EB? Looks like my favourite train is going through some very bad luck.


Yeah, it is. On the other hand, the AT is on time or even ahead of schedule most days.

<_<


----------



## JayPea

railbuck said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What in the world? So many problems on the EB? Looks like my favourite train is going through some very bad luck.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, it is. On the other hand, the AT is on time or even ahead of schedule most days.
> 
> <_<
Click to expand...


Instant classic! :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Ana

EB_OBS said:


> 1341887958[/url]' post='379108']
> 
> 
> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1341883899[/url]' post='379094']4 hours 2 minutes late today. Some people missed connections. Incredible. Ontime performance for train 8 in June is 0%. 12 month is 38.7.
> 
> 
> 
> This trainset has been behind schedule since it left Chicago on July 5th. It left Chicago 2 hours 9 minutes late due to switching out a diner and HEP problems. It was over 4 hours late by Havre, MT. It finally arrived into Seattle over 3 hours late.
> 
> That trainset turns for train #8 of the 7th. With the late arrival of #7 and then the repair of the broken bolster spring on the sleeper car, this train departed Seattle 3 hours 13 minutes late. It looks like heat restrictions and the resulting traffic kept if from ever making up any time. At one point it did get to 5 hours and 5 minutes late leaving St Cloud, MN.
> 
> Let's see how well it gets out of town tomorrow.
Click to expand...

I was on 8 out of Seattle on the 7th and this all sounds right. Plus we stopped by the scene of a car accident near shelby not sure what that was about as we couldn't have hit the van we could seen rolled over but someone suggested that either the crew witnessed it or perhaps the track had to be checked, I don't know. But that was another 10-15 mins. We also waited on 7 to pass us during the night. Some conductors are much better with the updates than others. I thought the staff at the Seattle station were great, would've been easier if the station wasn't in the midst of a refurb but they were really helpful. They served pizza before departure and most people were pretty cheerful, there was a cheer as a train approached and then much laughter when we realised it was a freight and another cheer as our train finally arrived. I'm dissappointed I didnt see more of the cascades but the countryside between sandpoint and Libby was great too and I'm not likely to see that again in the day.My car attendant became the chef after Spokane and until they got a new chef at Minneapolis/st Paul which didn't help, but I think the obs did a good job keeping everyone looked after, especially considering how often some people press the call button!!!

I thought It was good that they bring staff on board to sort out connections before arrival. They provided transport for some routes missed out ouf chicago, they held the CONO, I think it was only the CL that was missed (and non Amtrak connections too I guess)


----------



## Ispolkom

Ana said:


> I thought It was good that they bring staff on board to sort out connections before arrival. They provided transport for some routes missed out ouf chicago, they held the CONO, I think it was only the CL that was missed (and non Amtrak connections too I guess)


Great trip report, very complete, which covered most of the questions I'd have about a late Empire Builder. I've waited on #7 at Grand Forks for #8 to pass off the Devils Lake subdivision, so it's interesting to hear about it going the other way. What happened to the chef in Spokane that required your SCA to pinch-hit, or pinch-cook, or whatever?

I'm especially glad that they had people sort out connections *before* arrival. I know that I'd be much happier knowing what's going to happen with connections, were I on such a late train.


----------



## Guest

Are these current delays still a result of the BNSF derailment in MT? If so, is there an estimate as to when Amtrak's on-time performance should improve?

I was supposed to depart MSP for WAS on Monday morning, but got a call in the wee hours of the night saying that they would be providing on-time busses from MSP-CHI in order for passengers to make connections. When you're expecting a roomette, an 8-hour bus ride doesn't sound like much fun, so I rescheduled for this Thursday which was the earliest available roomette on the CL.

I'm wondering if I should make another, later booking now, just in case things aren't better by Thursday. I guess I can start watching today's departure out of SEA.

Anybody information would be helpful. Thanks!


----------



## Ispolkom

Guest said:


> Are these current delays still a result of the BNSF derailment in MT?


I think the delays are a combination of derailments, high temperatures, track work, freight congestion, and Amtrak equipment failure. Oh and a trespasser fatality or two, I think. I don't think that there's been a grade crossing accident recently, but that probably means that we're due for one.

Still, this is a better summer for the Empire Builder than 2011 was. No floods or plagues of locusts yet.


----------



## anir dendroica

I think Amtrak ought to introduce booking of "non-guaranteed connections." When a train is missing guaranteed connections 50% of the time, then it is unfair to treat each day's missed connections as an isolated crisis.

The concept would work something like this:

1. Passengers are notified on booking that a connection is not guaranteed and asked if they want to add an overnight stay.

2. If an overnight stay is selected, Amtrak adds the cost of the room and transportation to/from the hotel to the ticket price.

3. If an overnight stay is not selected, Amtrak notifies passengers that in the event of delays, a hotel room will automatically be booked with the cost automatically deducted from the customer's credit card. Furthermore Amtrak will provide transportation to/from the hotel and guaranteed accommodation on the next day's train.

This scheme would also allow passengers to book overnight connections (e.g. CZ to SWC) that are not currently bookable.

Guaranteed vs. non-guaranteed connections should be determined statistically - e.g. a connection is guaranteed only if it works at least 90% of the time. Some connections (e.g. EB to CL) might be guaranteed in some seasons (spring and fall) but non-guaranteed at other times of year.

Amtrak eats a lot of cash issuing hotel vouchers to dissatisfied customers who miss close connections. IMHO this cash could be better spent hiring a few people to co-ordinate with hotels and develop a streamlined non-guaranteed connection plan.

Mark


----------



## Ana

Ispolkom said:


> 1341945936[/url]' post='379251']
> 
> 
> Ana said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1341940434[/url]' post='379222']I thought It was good that they bring staff on board to sort out connections before arrival. They provided transport for some routes missed out ouf chicago, they held the CONO, I think it was only the CL that was missed (and non Amtrak connections too I guess)
> 
> 
> 
> Great trip report, very complete, which covered most of the questions I'd have about a late Empire Builder. I've waited on #7 at Grand Forks for #8 to pass off the Devils Lake subdivision, so it's interesting to hear about it going the other way. What happened to the chef in Spokane that required your SCA to pinch-hit, or pinch-cook, or whatever?
> 
> I'm especially glad that they had people sort out connections *before* arrival. I know that I'd be much happier knowing what's going to happen with connections, were I on such a late train.
Click to expand...

Thank you, glad it helped. Good to know where the trains wouldve passed too, i missed the details. II went to bed sometime out of Williston and woke up in Fargo. I did ask about the chef and our SCA said it was an old injury flaring up rather than an onboard injury this trip. I guess Spokane was a good place for him to leave and our SCA (who said he was a certified chef) stepped up. He was great, kept popping by during the day to check up on us.

The CONO passengers weren't sure til the very last minute if they would make their connection. The got given the paperwork for a hotel etc but at the last minute - as we were minutes from Chicago - they got told it would be held. It was scheduled as an on time departure and ended up leaving at 8.07 so I guess they wanted to be sure it wasn't going to drag out to twenty past or so before they confirmed since we might've been delayed by the metra train ahead of us on approach. My friend was making that connection though so she was very happy.


----------



## RRUserious

Honestly, sounds like some kind of traffic jam, like rush hour on the freeway with a broken-down car on the left-hand shoulder. I think our whole system is busting its seams. The economy is vastly larger than what the system was built to handle, and now with all these containers arriving from China on the west coast, I think we're seeing the railroad version of sclerosis. Question is, like our highway system, can an economy like ours even fix the problem now it is before us? With the national problem with careless debt, are we in a financing bind?


----------



## musikdude

Since the EB has been running about 4 hours (on average) late into Chicago and Amtrak in not holding the CL, what has been happening to the CL passengers? Bus ride to catch up?

Overnight in hotel paid by Amtrak and then out on next day's CL? If that is the case, and there is not an available room on the next day's CL, do they just send you in coach (even if you don't want to ride in coach)?

If you are forced into riding coach the next day and you had paid for a room with points, do you get some type of point's refund due to not having a room? Do you still get your free meals even though you have been out in coach??

Does anyone know the specifics of what happens??


----------



## RRUserious

Just looking at trains connecting with EB for points east, I'm getting departures of 6:00PM, 6:10PM, and 9:30PM. I am guess most LSL passengers make their train with a seriously reduced layover. But with the zero percent ontime record in June, did the Michigan and Capitol Limited passengers ever make their connection? I wonder if Amtrak just had buses standing by every day to get people off EB to points further east. Do those eastern trains really move so slow that a bus can catch up?

Such a miracle that last October, when I did the eastbound portion of my trip to the west that things went so well. I'm wondering if the trouble with BNSF started after that.


----------



## montana mike

I see this AM the two eastbound EBs are almost 8 and 5 hours behind schedule so far. Bummer. Weather certainly isn't an issue now--normal temps, clear skies and no major storms along the entire highline of the US. I know they have to clean, refuel and reprovision the EB in Seattle, but even with just being a couple hours late into Seattle the trains have been departing 4 hours late. I see no BNSF service advisories on their boards either today. The delays appear to be getting worse, not better. C'est La Vie'


----------



## JayPea

We here in the Pacific Northwest are experiencing the hottest weather in three years and there have been severe heat restrictions across Washington. That's part of the problem now.


----------



## montana mike

I see where between Yakima and Pasco the temps are supposed to rise to the 90's, but it's currently 69 degrees in Seattle and Portland with a forecasted high in the 70's to around 80. Not exactly a heatwave. Still doesn't explain the huge delays across the rest of the route. Nothing we can do about this mess though.



JayPea said:


> We here in the Pacific Northwest are experiencing the hottest weather in three years and there have been severe heat restrictions across Washington. That's part of the problem now.


----------



## Teri

At what point would Amtrak say trains are going to be 4 hours late until further notice. That would be helpful. There is definitely a pattern this week and prior. I would think until XYZ is fixed they should be able to know the time schedule is revised.

Thank you


----------



## JayPea

montana mike said:


> I see where between Yakima and Pasco the temps are supposed to rise to the 90's, but it's currently 69 degrees in Seattle and Portland with a forecasted high in the 70's to around 80. Not exactly a heatwave. Still doesn't explain the huge delays across the rest of the route. Nothing we can do about this mess though.
> 
> 
> 
> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> We here in the Pacific Northwest are experiencing the hottest weather in three years and there have been severe heat restrictions across Washington. That's part of the problem now.
Click to expand...

I don't really get this either to tell you the truth. I was on the EB Sunday that ran from Vancouver to nearly Bingen - White Salmon at 25 mph due to heat restrictions. It was 88 then in Vancouver, which doesn't seem excessive. And though it has been cooler, the Portland leg of the EB has lost almost exactly the same amount of time from Vancouver to Bingen - White Salmon each day since then, so I assume the same thing is happening. There were more heat restrictions Wishram - Pasco, so that we were two hours late into Pasco. And it has been consistently 2 hrs late into Pasco every day.


----------



## JayPea

One oasis of good news in a desert of bad concerning the EB: today's #7 was 13 minutes EARLY into Seattle today.


----------



## fairviewroad

JayPea said:


> One oasis of good news in a desert of bad concerning the EB: today's #7 was 13 minutes EARLY into Seattle today.


Yeah, I was just about to point this out too. Guess July's OTP for #7 will be at least 3%, woo hoo!

And to the comment about Amtrak just issuing an advisory saying that until further notice, trains will run 4 hours late. The problem

with that is that people will take that to mean that they can just show up at the station 4 hours late. Whereas some days (like

today's #7) that would mean they'd miss their train by a long shot. Or....look at the #7 that left CHI yesterday. It ran on virtually

on time until FAR, where it started to lose time. So where would the "advisory" kick in?

Passengers do need to be aware of the tools at their disposal to check train status, but it's not clear to me that a general advisory

is needed.


----------



## montana mike

Excellent point on the travel advisories!

Sadly, it doesn't look like #7 will arrive early in SEA tomorrow-it's already losing time on the highline at every station and is now over 2 hours behind-and no heat issues there.

I am still having trouble getting a grip on the "heat slowdowns". I have been to both Pasco and Yakima in the summer--their "normal" high temps are in the 90's at this time of the year (and the forecast is only about 5 degrees above the norm), so one would think Amtrak would have built in this fact when scheduling the #27/28 trains? Also, what does the Sunset Ltd do when going thru the Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?


----------



## johnny.menhennet

montana mike said:


> Excellent point on the travel advisories!
> 
> Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?


At least in the deserts in California and Arizona, it goes through at night!


----------



## Aaron

johnny.menhennet said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point on the travel advisories!
> 
> Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?
> 
> 
> 
> At least in the deserts in California and Arizona, it goes through at night!
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about building a railroad, but since UP knows it's going to be that hot for a significant portion of the year, is it possible that they just build their road to withstand the heat? Different construction techniques or different alloy in the rails or something?


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> I am still having trouble getting a grip on the "heat slowdowns". I have been to both Pasco and Yakima in the summer--their "normal" high temps are in the 90's at this time of the year (and the forecast is only about 5 degrees above the norm), so one would think Amtrak would have built in this fact when scheduling the #27/28 trains? Also, what does the Sunset Ltd do when going thru the Desert SW in the summer, where temps are often 120 degrees?


Slow orders because of heat are the railroad's call, not Amtrak's, and the Empire Builder is hardly the only train so delayed. In fact, the often-remarkably-late Sunset Limited is probably not the example you want to use for good on time performance at any time of the year. While its average lateness seems better than the Empire Builder, I notice that #1 managed to stagger into Los Angeles 5.5 hours late on July 4. And what's up with Yakima? Nice town, but Amtrak doesn't serve it.


----------



## montana mike

Yakima and Pasco were under the same heat advisory, that's all. They aren't that far apart.


----------



## RRUserious

JayPea said:


> One oasis of good news in a desert of bad concerning the EB: today's #7 was 13 minutes EARLY into Seattle today.


Except that the #7 train is on a whole different planet from the #8. Makes total sense out of the one way train trip. Train in the west direction, then something else in the east direction.


----------



## yarrow

7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for amtrak's inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner


----------



## Mackensen

yarrow said:


> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner


Fixed that for you.


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> Yakima and Pasco were under the same heat advisory, that's all. They aren't that far apart.


You *are* a Montanan, aren't you? I'd consider 85 miles to be a considerable distance, but that shows how long it's been since I've lived in the Big Sky State.


----------



## Texan Eagle

Mackensen said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
Click to expand...

Mr Amtrak Apologist, the passenger buys a ticket from *Amtrak*, not BNSF. Trying to absolve Amtrak from all blame by merely stating the delays are BNSF's fault every time is silly. To the passenger it does not matter if the delay is the fault of BNSF or Godforsaken Railway Company of Timbaktoo. The passenger paid Amtrak for a service so there is nothing wrong in blaming Amtrak for the deficiency in service. If your flight gets 2 hours delayed on the tarmac due to airport congestion and you miss your connecting flight, you'd rush to the airline asking them to compensate for it by putting you on another flight, isn't it? If the airline said "it was XYZ Corporation operating the ATC tower at ABC airport's fault so we don't blame us" would you take that kindly?


----------



## Ispolkom

Texan Eagle said:


> If the airline said "it was XYZ Corporation operating the ATC tower at ABC airport's fault so we don't blame us" would you take that kindly?


Isn't that sort of what Continental did with Continental Express Colgan flight 3407? I guess it worked for them, as even the wikipedia article is titled "Colgan Air Flight 3407."


----------



## AmtrakBlue

RRUserious said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> One oasis of good news in a desert of bad concerning the EB: today's #7 was 13 minutes EARLY into Seattle today.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that the #7 train is on a whole different planet from the #8. Makes total sense out of the one way train trip. Train in the west direction, then something else in the east direction.
Click to expand...

But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®


----------



## yarrow

Mackensen said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
Click to expand...

don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.


----------



## RRUserious

AmtrakBlue said:


> But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®


Well that *could *be true. The point is that #7/27 have a LOT better record of being on time. Also for those whose destination is the end of the routes, the lateness matters less. #8/28 terminate in Chicago, and the zero percent ontime record (June) impacts connections in a big, big way. Those scheduled on the Capitol Limited have minimal chance of being there when their train departs. I'd say the percentage of times that #8 is late due to lateness the other way is small enough that its not an interesting discussion.

Another thing I realized today is that the ontime record is only half the story. The other half is the percent of connections made. That's the really sad part for passengers. They reserve and pay for a seat on a train that leaves before they arrive. Amtrak can legally absolve themselves of responsibility (all travel companies are good at this), but it is a severe blow to the dreams some people have of a good trip. And the "comfort" offered by those who back Amtrak's response through thick and thin is not going to build customer base for railroads.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

RRUserious said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®
> 
> 
> 
> Well that *could *be true.
Click to expand...

No, it *is* true. 7 has six hours to turn into 8, while 8 has 22 hours to turn into 7. Hmm... which one has a better chance of leaving on time? This is a hard one...


----------



## montana mike

The 85 miles between the two cities is in both the same Meteorological zone, thus my comment. I have been to both places and they experience very similar weather throughout the year. Yes, I live in MT and 85 miles is NOTHING. We commute longer distances sometimes.







Ispolkom said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yakima and Pasco were under the same heat advisory, that's all. They aren't that far apart.
> 
> 
> 
> You *are* a Montanan, aren't you? I'd consider 85 miles to be a considerable distance, but that shows how long it's been since I've lived in the Big Sky State.
Click to expand...


----------



## NY Penn

Is there a reason why 7(10) wasn't turned in Spokane?


----------



## RRUserious

johnny.menhennet said:


> No, it *is* true. 7 has six hours to turn into 8, while 8 has 22 hours to turn into 7. Hmm... which one has a better chance of leaving on time? This is a hard one...


Haha. Empire Builder can't make a connection with _itself!_ That has to be the limit.


----------



## Mackensen

yarrow said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.
Click to expand...

You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.

Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.

I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.

Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.


----------



## Mackensen

Texan Eagle said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mr Amtrak Apologist, the passenger buys a ticket from *Amtrak*, not BNSF. Trying to absolve Amtrak from all blame by merely stating the delays are BNSF's fault every time is silly. To the passenger it does not matter if the delay is the fault of BNSF or Godforsaken Railway Company of Timbaktoo. The passenger paid Amtrak for a service so there is nothing wrong in blaming Amtrak for the deficiency in service. If your flight gets 2 hours delayed on the tarmac due to airport congestion and you miss your connecting flight, you'd rush to the airline asking them to compensate for it by putting you on another flight, isn't it? If the airline said "it was XYZ Corporation operating the ATC tower at ABC airport's fault so we don't blame us" would you take that kindly?
Click to expand...

This seems beside the point. Amtrak will fulfill the terms of its transportation contract, which is to move you from point A to point B, regardless of why the delay took place. Amtrak doesn't refuse to put you on a later train or issue a refund because the problem lay with BNSF; your analogy suggests that you think that's the case. I think Amtrak's entirely within its right to explain why the delays occurred, and I'm seen them get slagged here and elsewhere for not providing sufficient information. The better the public understands why it is that trains don't run on time (equipment shortages, freight interference, insufficient infrastructure) the better off we're all going to be.


----------



## JayPea

Mackensen said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.
> 
> Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.
> 
> I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.
> 
> Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.
Click to expand...


I couldn't have said it better. I was on the EB Portland - Spokane last Sunday that got into Spokane 1 hr and 40 minutes late. We first were stopped on a siding just outside of Vancouver to wait for a freight that was run around us. How's that Amtrak's fault? Then we had to run 25 mph almost to Bingen-White Salmon due to heat restrictions imposed by the BNSF dispatchers. How's that Amtrak's fault? We did get up to speed after that, only to run into some lesser heat restrictions and stoppages due to freight trains run ahead of us. How's that Amtrak's fault? We got into Pasco over 2 hrs late, and beyond Pasco, had more heat restrictions and more stoppages due to freights. How is any of that Amtrak's fault??? We actually made up about 25 minutes from Pasco to Spokane.

I have no idea what is causing such massive delays on the Hi-Line. I can't imagine, though, that Amtrak is putting along at 25 mph or sitting on sidings for 45 minutes to an hour just to pi$$ off the passengers. I am fully aware the first-time traveler on Amtrak isn't aware of this. All they know is their train is hours late. But unless it's a mechanical failure, which Amtrak very well has responsibility for, I don't see how we can blame Amtrak for ALL their woes. I'd like concrete answers as to what Amtrak can do about heat slow orders, about derailments, about freight congestion, and about trackwork and the condition of the rails. I'd also like to hear how those are all Amtrak's fault and no one else's.


----------



## montana mike

Post script to this discussion--#8 looks like it will pull into CHI around 1 AM on 7/13--almost 9 hours late. Almost not worth going to a hotel if you are heading out early in the AM. They lost time almost the entire way. #7 didn't do much better pulling into SEA and PDX late in the afternoon instead of around 10AM, both around 6 hrs late, which of course made the #8/28 super late in their departures--perpetuating the problems. I spoke with a local friend who works for BNSF (engineer) and he said other than the derailment over a week ago, he has seen no issues of significance on the Hi-line since then and the freights appear to be moving normally. He did say freight traffic, especially energy and grain related, appears to be heavier this year.


----------



## RRUserious

Stretches of the track in North Dakota-Montana almost arent fit for passenger travel. At SOME point, if they want rail traffic, they will HAVE to do some rebuilding, just as the highlways, at every level, have had to be rebuilt many, many times.


----------



## yarrow

JayPea said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.
> 
> Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.
> 
> I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.
> 
> Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I couldn't have said it better. I was on the EB Portland - Spokane last Sunday that got into Spokane 1 hr and 40 minutes late. We first were stopped on a siding just outside of Vancouver to wait for a freight that was run around us. How's that Amtrak's fault? Then we had to run 25 mph almost to Bingen-White Salmon due to heat restrictions imposed by the BNSF dispatchers. How's that Amtrak's fault? We did get up to speed after that, only to run into some lesser heat restrictions and stoppages due to freight trains run ahead of us. How's that Amtrak's fault? We got into Pasco over 2 hrs late, and beyond Pasco, had more heat restrictions and more stoppages due to freights. How is any of that Amtrak's fault??? We actually made up about 25 minutes from Pasco to Spokane.
> 
> I have no idea what is causing such massive delays on the Hi-Line. I can't imagine, though, that Amtrak is putting along at 25 mph or sitting on sidings for 45 minutes to an hour just to pi$$ off the passengers. I am fully aware the first-time traveler on Amtrak isn't aware of this. All they know is their train is hours late. But unless it's a mechanical failure, which Amtrak very well has responsibility for, I don't see how we can blame Amtrak for ALL their woes. I'd like concrete answers as to what Amtrak can do about heat slow orders, about derailments, about freight congestion, and about trackwork and the condition of the rails. I'd also like to hear how those are all Amtrak's fault and no one else's.
Click to expand...

i dunno, JayPea, 8/28 had a 0% otp into chi last month and i don't think this month is starting out much better. i cannot think of another organization that we might say "that's ok, it's not their fault". i think amtrak's response is a big part of their problem. as has been discussed, how about an alert on the website, how about calling ticketed passengers to let them know that the odds are they will be late into chi, how about a public action plan from amtrak as to how they are dealing with the delays. i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be


----------



## JayPea

yarrow said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7/27 supposed to arrive sea/pdx this morning running 5-6 hours late. 8 that is supposed to arrive chi this afternoon 7+ hours late. maybe you need to build a couple days into an eb round trip itinerary to compensate for *BNSF's* inability to operate its transportation sysytem in a timely manner
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> don't appreciate your cute little "edit" of my post to make it appear to say what it didn't. i don't know what the otp for bnsf trains to chi or sea has been the past couple months. be interesting if that info is available.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You and RRSerious missed my broader point (and my attempt at levity, sigh). Amtrak's in a situation that's not comparable to that of the airlines. BNSF owns almost the entire route used by the Empire Builder. Amtrak is at their mercy for dispatching. If BNSF has a derailment there's nothing Amtrak can do. BNSF has had a pair of derailments in the last couple weeks which has had a cascading effect on the Builder because of the limited time available to turn it in Seattle. Airport delays aren't really in the same ballpark, especially since a single airplane doesn't have to make 30-40 stops over a fixed multiple day schedule, with each delay compounding the last.
> 
> Amtrak can run the Empire Builder on time. Up until a few years ago the Builder had the best on-time performance of any of the long-distance trains, and that's not damning with faint praise: it was actually good. Since then a series of natural calamities, increased freight interference, and deteriorating track have conspired to reduce the Builder's reliability. Amtrak has very little to do with this, and very little power to influence it.
> 
> I refuse to blame Amtrak for problems that it doesn't cause and can't solve. If the Builder is late two hours because of equipment failure in Chicago, that's Amtrak's fault. If the Builder is late eight hours because there's flooding on the Hi Line, that's an Act of God. If the Builder is sixteen hours late because BNSF put a train on the ground in Montana, then that's BNSF's fault. Amtrak contracted with them to provide a service and they couldn't fulfill it. Most of the time they can. When I'm subject to freight interference I do blame the freight railroads. They have both legal and contractual obligations that they're not fulfilling. BNSF is probably the best of lot; Amtrak's currently suing Canadian National for willful mismanagement.
> 
> Let's have a hypothetical. You're on Greyhound. The bridge over the interstate has washed out and/or there's a flaming car wreck. You're delayed. Do you blame Greyhound for this? I sure wouldn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I couldn't have said it better. I was on the EB Portland - Spokane last Sunday that got into Spokane 1 hr and 40 minutes late. We first were stopped on a siding just outside of Vancouver to wait for a freight that was run around us. How's that Amtrak's fault? Then we had to run 25 mph almost to Bingen-White Salmon due to heat restrictions imposed by the BNSF dispatchers. How's that Amtrak's fault? We did get up to speed after that, only to run into some lesser heat restrictions and stoppages due to freight trains run ahead of us. How's that Amtrak's fault? We got into Pasco over 2 hrs late, and beyond Pasco, had more heat restrictions and more stoppages due to freights. How is any of that Amtrak's fault??? We actually made up about 25 minutes from Pasco to Spokane.
> 
> I have no idea what is causing such massive delays on the Hi-Line. I can't imagine, though, that Amtrak is putting along at 25 mph or sitting on sidings for 45 minutes to an hour just to pi$$ off the passengers. I am fully aware the first-time traveler on Amtrak isn't aware of this. All they know is their train is hours late. But unless it's a mechanical failure, which Amtrak very well has responsibility for, I don't see how we can blame Amtrak for ALL their woes. I'd like concrete answers as to what Amtrak can do about heat slow orders, about derailments, about freight congestion, and about trackwork and the condition of the rails. I'd also like to hear how those are all Amtrak's fault and no one else's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i dunno, JayPea, 8/28 had a 0% otp into chi last month and i don't think this month is starting out much better. i cannot think of another organization that we might say "that's ok, it's not their fault". i think amtrak's response is a big part of their problem. as has been discussed, how about an alert on the website, how about calling ticketed passengers to let them know that the odds are they will be late into chi, how about a public action plan from amtrak as to how they are dealing with the delays. i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be
Click to expand...


Amtrak's response could and should be better. That part I agree with. But I would still like to know, if and when the delays are at the feet of BNSF, what Amtrak can do about those.


----------



## Mackensen

There are two issues here; and they're tricky. The first is how Amtrak communicates with individual passengers; the second with the general public. On the first score I think Amtrak actually does a pretty good job, and that's based on personal experience. When my return trip on the Empire Builder got canceled in January 2009 because of mudslides, Amtrak called me directly. When my wife's return trip on the Vermonter last month was going to be six hours late because of heat-related slow orders, Amtrak called me the night before (my number was on the reservation). Note that because the Vemonter was going to be so late Amtrak issued a full refund the day of travel. When there have been schedule changes that aren't in the "breaking news" category I've gotten emails. I think that's good customer service and that's as good--or better--than what the airlines do. Again, as an intercity railroad Amtrak faces special challenges that the airlines don't. Let's say I'm to board in Minot, heading east to Chicago. The train is in Havre. It's late. It's probably going to be late in Minot, though it'll make some time up. It's still possible, say better than 50% chance, that it'll be on-time in Chicago. Does Amtrak alert anyone?

I work for a non-profit. We're very careful about messaging our members. Too much communication and you just get tuned out (to say nothing of the stress on the staff preparing those communications). Amtrak's got a decent failsafe in the online status site, or the toll-free number. On long-distance trips I check those against our actual progress and I've found that they're often quite accurate. Where Amtrak might improve, I think, is to create an alert system, letting you know when estimates change +/- 10-15 minutes or more. I don't know what that infrastructure would cost.

The second issue is service alerts. I too think Amtrak is stingy about issuing them, but I think it stems from the concerns I've outlined above. Service alerts make sense to me if there's a widespread system problem affecting lots of people. A delay on a single LD train to my mind doesn't qualify. The NEC being closed by a storm--absolutely, and I was surprised how long it look.


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## albertaborn

'i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be" - and that's the biggie in this discussion/debate.

I've been reading these EB posts with interest, having had a booking to ride EB from SBY to MOT in September. Did our first train trip last August from SBY to OLY - after months of watching the chaos caused by the flooding and enjoying this forum we had moments of wondering if we'd made the right choice. Fortunately all went well, we made our SEA connection and loved the train. This year we decided to visit South Dakota and rather than drive all the way we decided we'd take the EB as far as MOT, rent a car and drive from there, strictly for the train experience. Made our trip a bit more expensive but we felt the fun of taking the train was worth the extra cost . Our schedule isn't tight, but there are car rental and hotel reservations, allowing some leeway but not a full day or two change in schedule. Pretty hard to travel without a knowing you have a place to sleep and a car the next day when you get there. We are aware of issues that can slow a train down and did take that into consideration, but felt we were good with a few hours allowance for lateness.

After watching what's been happening for the last 2 months we started rethinking our plans. The whole idea of taking the train was strictly for fun, and we know it could be an entire different ball game come September, EB could be running right on schedule, but we've decided to cancel our reservations and drive the entire route. Since we have to drive 1 1/2 hours to get to SBY and then would be checking out of our hotel on departure day in MOT, if EB is running like it is now we're looking at what could be long waits at the stations - and without transportation in MOT. Don't want to start or end what should be a fun trip with that frustration, hence our decision.

Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.

If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of it


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## Donctor

johnny.menhennet said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®
> 
> 
> 
> Well that *could *be true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, it *is* true. 7 has six hours to turn into 8, while 8 has 22 hours to turn into 7. Hmm... which one has a better chance of leaving on time? This is a hard one...
Click to expand...

Also, if it doesn't make the 22 hour turn, there is typically other equipment that can be cobbled together to make a set.


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## albertaborn

'i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be" - and that's the biggie in this discussion/debate.

I've been reading these EB posts with interest, having had a booking to ride EB from SBY to MOT in September. Did our first train trip last August from SBY to OLY - after months of watching the chaos caused by the flooding and enjoying this forum we had moments of wondering if we'd made the right choice. Fortunately all went well, we made our SEA connection and loved the train. This year we decided to visit South Dakota and rather than drive all the way we decided we'd take the EB as far as MOT, rent a car and drive from there, strictly to include the train experience. Our schedule isn't tight, but there are car rental and hotel reservations, allowing some leeway but not a full day or two change in schedule. Pretty hard to travel without a knowing you have a place to sleep and a car the next day when you get there.We are aware of issues that can slow a train but felt we were good with plans to pick up the car the morning after arrival.

After watching what's been happening for the last 2 months we started rethinking our plans. The whole idea of taking the train was strictly for fun, and we know it could be an entire different ball game come September, EB could be running right on schedule, but we've decided to cancel our reservations and drive the entire route. Since we have to drive 1 1/2 hours to get to SBY and would be checking out of our hotel on departure day in MOT, if EB is running like it is now we're looking at what could be long waits at the stations - and without transportation in MOT. Don't want to start or end what should be a fun trip with that frustration, hence our decision.

Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.

If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.


----------



## Mackensen

albertaborn said:


> Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.
> 
> If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.


I would say that you should travel by whatever means seem most appropriate. However, I do think you should be more concerned about whose fault it is, because most of things you enumerated are temporary phenomenon. Record heat has caused numerous slow orders, and possibly track kinks which led to derailments. This is not likely to be the case in September. If I were you I would have waited until mid-August or so to see whether things improved. Amtrak would still give you a full refund if you cancelled then.


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## amamba

Well reading this thread is making me very happy that I gave myself an extra day in CHI on my EB/LSL trip next week. I am on the EB from SEA to CHI on Monday, arrive in CHi on Wednesday, and then not taking the LSL until Thursday.


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## RRUserious

amamba said:


> Well reading this thread is making me very happy that I gave myself an extra day in CHI on my EB/LSL trip next week. I am on the EB from SEA to CHI on Monday, arrive in CHi on Wednesday, and then not taking the LSL until Thursday.


Should work out perfect for you.


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## OBS

amamba said:


> Well reading this thread is making me very happy that I gave myself an extra day in CHI on my EB/LSL trip next week. I am on the EB from SEA to CHI on Monday, arrive in CHi on Wednesday, and then not taking the LSL until Thursday.


Of course that means that EB will be 15 min. early into Chi on Wednesday...LOL


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## albertaborn

Mackensen said:


> albertaborn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.
> 
> If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that you should travel by whatever means seem most appropriate. However, I do think you should be more concerned about whose fault it is, because most of things you enumerated are temporary phenomenon. Record heat has caused numerous slow orders, and possibly track kinks which led to derailments. This is not likely to be the case in September. If I were you I would have waited until mid-August or so to see whether things improved. Amtrak would still give you a full refund if you cancelled then.
Click to expand...

Those ' temporary phenomenon' have been pretty constant for the last two months, and changing plans requires making changes that unfortunately can't wait until the last minute. Going into this we were aware that glitches can occur with rail travel but we certainly didn't expect to see such a long period of constant lateness. Yes, the situation could improve greatly by Sept. but also may not, and riding the train was only part of our trip. If it was going to be a negative experience we decided we'd rather not mar the memory of our great EB experience last year with a bad one this year.

I just get as bit annoyed when the diehards get so defensive when someone criticizes the level of service as far as keeping to the schedule. I understand loving trains to the point where you can overlook and even enjoy the glitches, but that's not how many see it. Sure, there are legitimate reasons for delays, but bottom line, 2 months of these 'phenomenon' is reaching the point of them not being phenomenon but more a problem that needs attention. I know there are many hindrances to finding a solution - money being major, but I don't think Amtrak's public perception is being helped any by the current stats of one of its major routes.


----------



## Mackensen

albertaborn said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> albertaborn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.
> 
> If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that you should travel by whatever means seem most appropriate. However, I do think you should be more concerned about whose fault it is, because most of things you enumerated are temporary phenomenon. Record heat has caused numerous slow orders, and possibly track kinks which led to derailments. This is not likely to be the case in September. If I were you I would have waited until mid-August or so to see whether things improved. Amtrak would still give you a full refund if you cancelled then.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those ' temporary phenomenon' have been pretty constant for the last two months, and changing plans requires making changes that unfortunately can't wait until the last minute. Going into this we were aware that glitches can occur with rail travel but we certainly didn't expect to see such a long period of constant lateness. Yes, the situation could improve greatly by Sept. but also may not, and riding the train was only part of our trip. If it was going to be a negative experience we decided we'd rather not mar the memory of our great EB experience last year with a bad one this year.
> 
> I just get as bit annoyed when the diehards get so defensive when someone criticizes the level of service as far as keeping to the schedule. I understand loving trains to the point where you can overlook and even enjoy the glitches, but that's not how many see it. Sure, there are legitimate reasons for delays, but bottom line, 2+ months of these 'phenomenon' is reaching the point of them not being phenomenon but more a problem that needs attention. I know there are many hindrances to finding a solution - money being major, but I don't think Amtrak's public perception is being helped any by the current stats of one of its major routes.
Click to expand...

Wait, two months? Now I'm confused. Two months ago #8 ran 1-2 two hours late, at worst. 40 minutes late into Chicago was common in May. I though we were talking about 4+ hours, which is just over the last week or two. There's also the couple days about a month ago (?) when a flood caused significant delays. That's the delay that RRUSerious experienced and it left a really bad taste in his mouth.


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## EB_OBS

Well, #28 had to be annulled and sent back to Portland tonight before it ever reached Pasco, WA. What was a flash flood over the rails and reportedly two separate mud slides, compounded by no buses available to provide alternate transport on into Spokane.


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## NY Penn

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?


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## EB_OBS

NY Penn said:


> So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?


The train was completely "Annulled w/ NO alternate transportation." The train and passengers returned to Portland.


----------



## Nathanael

the_traveler said:


> I've had a 3 hour flight turn into an 8 hour flight once! We ate dinner (this was back in the "good old days" when airlines served dinner), saw a movie and about 1/2 of a second movie - and this all happened prior to takeoff in Chicago!


I had a flight from JFK (NY) to Heathrow (London) delayed by *eight hours* taking off due to "traffic congestion" in the air over NYC. The plane had to leave the departure queue to refuel because it had used so much fuel taxiing. We had left a huge amount of time for our connecting flight from Heathrow, but ended up staying overnight in London.

On another trip fiancee was delayed by *16 hours* when America West's reservations system melted down. (Coming on a differnt route on the same day, I bought a ticket from another airline at great expense; had I stayed on America West I wouldn't have even left on the scheduled day of departure.)

Neither of those even involved weather-related disruptions.

Neither did the habitual cancellation by US Airways of flights from Philadelphia to Ithaca, sometimes simply because they decided that they had an unprofitable number of passengers scheduled to travel on the plane, sometimes because of equipment shortage or lack of pilots; many are the times my family has rented a car for a one-way drive rather than wait to see how long it would take US Airways to decide to actually accomodate us. (Several times, I arrived home before the first non-annulled flight *left* Philadelphia.)

I know some friends who slept overnight in a closed and locked airport in Florida while waiting to get a replacement flight -- they were not offered hotel rooms.

*Never* schedule anything important on the scheduled day of arrival. Arriving a day late is par for the course in a long-distance trip, whether by rail, air, or road. (Car breakdowns?...)

Amtrak's delays are more common, and Amtrak really should keep to schedule better when there aren't weather- and freight-related disruptions, but I've found that Amtrak are much better behaved when delays happen than the airlines and airports in the US are. (BA treated us very decently at Heathrow, though.) Though to be fair, I approached Amtrak with the mentality which came from my airline experiences, and when the train was bustituted from MSP to CHI during the floods a few years ago which took out both the usual train route and all three possible detour routes, I got the ticket refunded and made a one-way car rental. (Luckily the roads in Wisconsin, which had been closed for most of my time in MSP, had just reopened. The gas stations in Wisconsin were still all closed.)

When there are severe weather disruptions in an area, your best bet is to cancel any plans to visit that area *at all*.

As for albertaborn, something confuses me about that comment: if you're scheduled to rent a car on the morning after arrival, and you arrive late, you can tell the rental car company to hold it for you. It's only if you arrive early that you wouldn't have transportation....


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## amamba

NY Penn said:


> So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?


What happened to the rest of 8 yesterday? Did it continue ont he way? It is listed as a service disruption at amtrak.com and on status maps.


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## Anderson

1) Amtrak and the freights really need to come to a better mechanism for making a "temporary schedule" over known problematic track due to work or persistent seasonal conditions that can be predicted. A good example of them pulling this together was when CSX was doing work in VA and they were able to shuffle trains on the NPN-RVR section. In a lot of cases, though, even where an outright schedule change is merited for several weeks (for example, a slow order pad-out due to constant heat-related slow orders), this doesn't happen. To be fair, I'm not thinking of incessant, generic delays (see also: Sunset Limited), but I _am_ thinking of the tendency for western trains' timekeeping to more or less go to hell in the summertime.*

2) Failing that, Amtrak might want to consider some sort of "predicted arrival time" for cases like the above. Look, if they /know/ the train will likely be late for a few weeks, at least communicate that to passengers with their projected arrival time so they can plan. Even if the timetable isn't officially altered (thus allowing early departures if things run "normally"), that's still something.

3) Amtrak is very good at handling super-late trains as far as passenger service...at least, as a rule. When my Chief was late last year, I got an equivalent voucher without asking for it. There are meltdowns here, yes, but I find them to be the exception rather than the rule

4) Finally, when I'm traveling, I don't assume an on-time train unless I'm in a specific situation where reliability is more predictable (i.e. the extended NEC). I'm prepared to be surprised about where I wake up...I've expected to wake up in Indiana and instead seen Cleveland outside my window on the LSL. It happens, it goes with the territory, and I've adapted to it. There are some routes that are more reliable than others, but especially the "big four" western trains simply can't be relied upon to be on time because of the distances they cover and so forth.

*If nothing else, planning a modified schedule for late June-August based on how the summer is "sorting out" might be worthwhile. There seems to be a tendency for summers, at least as of late, to get into whatever climactic pattern they feel like and then to stay that way.


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## NW cannonball

amamba said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to the rest of 8 yesterday? Did it continue ont he way? It is listed as a service disruption at amtrak.com and on status maps.
Click to expand...

It is _possible_ that the 8(14) was annulled east of Spokane because it might have been running short two cars and without the 28 section there wasn't enough train to run east from Spokane, much less take the passengers from 28 even if there had been busses available.

I say this because 7(12) was definitely missing two cars in the Seattle section when it departed MSP about 00:44 on 7/13. I watched it roll on to the main a mile east of MSP about 00:54, and there were only 4 superliners between the bag car and the SSL. One of the 4 was a dining car and one was a coach - the other two I'm not absolutely sure but probably transdorm and another coach.

This was the section that would normally turn in seattle and become 8(14). If there were no spare superliner sleeping cars at SEA on Saturday -- 8(14) _might _have been an abnormally short consist.

Possible scenario?


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## NY Penn

I doubt it - having some cars is always better than a cancelled train.


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## EB_OBS

I've worked all week, including Saturday morning and Sunday morning the 14th and 15th. There were no #7s that were short cars in the consist.


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## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to the rest of 8 yesterday? Did it continue ont he way? It is listed as a service disruption at amtrak.com and on status maps.
Click to expand...

#28(14) was turned back to PDX due to the landslides and washout west of Pasco, WA. The train with passengers and crew was unable to get through and there were no buses available in addition to a section of highway 14 was also washed out. Passengers were returned to where they boarded #28 and unfortunately no alternate transportation was able to be provided. With the tracks closed #27 was terminated at SPK and the passengers were bused further west. The equipment was tacked on, in reverse, to #8 and returned mostly empty to Chicago.

#28(15) was to dead-head the train through the slide area and bus the passengers to PSC, unfortunately BNSF's original estimate of when the train could go through turned out to be way way off and the train was again turned back to PDX. The passengers had already been put on buses to Pasco but instead were brought to Spokane, where train #27 was terminated and the equipment put on in reverse onto #8 and sent east with all the passengers that arrived on the buses. We bought pizzas and fed everybody in the station and the train departed three hours late.

It's looking like tonight #28 will get through the slide area, most likely with delays but it's coming through with passengers aboard.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

EB_OBS said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?
> 
> 
> 
> The train was completely "Annulled w/ NO alternate transportation." The train and passengers returned to Portland.
Click to expand...

What exactly does this mean for the passengers? Will Amtrak put you up in a hotel? Do they provide any meal vouchers? Will they reschedule you on the first train or bus that can make it out? Or can they simply choose to hand your money back and wash their hands of any further responsibility?


----------



## EB_OBS

Texas Sunset said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> 
> So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?
> 
> 
> 
> The train was completely "Annulled w/ NO alternate transportation." The train and passengers returned to Portland.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What exactly does this mean for the passengers? Will Amtrak put you up in a hotel? Do they provide any meal vouchers? Will they reschedule you on the first train or bus that can make it out? Or can they simply choose to hand your money back and wash their hands of any further responsibility?
Click to expand...


I'm sure this answer isn't going to please some of you and it's certainly not convenient for the displaced passengers, however, here it is;

Force Majeure Event

This information can be found under "Terms of Transportation" at the bottom of the page on the Amtrak website.

Obviously, anyone can then purchase a ticket on the next train if there is space available. In this particular instance, #28(15) was fully booked so an extra coach was added to accommodate any passengers from the train that returned to Portland with all the passengers which was #28(14). Unfortunately, if you previously had a sleeper, there were only two or three rooms still available on the 15th.


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## amamba

I'm on #8(16) and we got delayed about an hour outside of sEA bc of a suspicious package by the tracks. I will let you k ow in the morning when I wake up if #28 joins us in SPK. I hope to be asleep by then.


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## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> I'm on #8(16) and we got delayed about an hour outside of sEA bc of a suspicious package by the tracks. I will let you k ow in the morning when I wake up if #28 joins us in SPK. I hope to be asleep by then.


#28 departed Wishram, WA at 8:36 PM, which is 1 hour, 41 minutes late, so it should be at or near Pasco about now.


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## CHamilton

amamba said:


> I'm on #8(16) and we got delayed about an hour outside of sEA bc of a suspicious package by the tracks.


Man, if it's not one thing, it's another. At least BNSF didn't close everything down for 48 hours.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/07/16/2216724/false-alarm-disrupts-seattle-rail.html


----------



## amamba

We are now just leavIng Whitefish about 2 hrs late.


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## fairviewroad

CHamilton said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on #8(16) and we got delayed about an hour outside of sEA bc of a suspicious package by the tracks.
> 
> 
> 
> Man, if it's not one thing, it's another. At least BNSF didn't close everything down for 48 hours.
> 
> http://www.thenewstr...attle-rail.html
Click to expand...

At least in this case, this event did not ultimately delay the Builder except for those traveling to points btw SEA and Spokane, since thanks to padding,

#8(16) arrived in Spokane just 11 minutes late despite the earlier 50 minute delay. Of course, it had to wait around for the PDX section to show

up.


----------



## amamba

Major derailment in Montana. I am on #8(16) and I believe we will be in Glasgow Montana for hours. The scanner is blowing up with cars on fire and supposedly at least 16 BNSF cara detailed. They have been discussing on te scanner whether we might go back to havre and be bussed or stay here in Glasgow for the duration until the track is clear.


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## fairviewroad

Wow, the EB just can't catch a break. At least 7(16) appears to have made it through, since it's west of Havre by now.


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## yarrow

amamba said:


> Major derailment in Montana. I am on #8(16) and I believe we will be in Glasgow Montana for hours. The scanner is blowing up with cars on fire and supposedly at least 16 BNSF cara detailed. They have been discussing on te scanner whether we might go back to havre and be bussed or stay here in Glasgow for the duration until the track is clear.


good grief. good luck


----------



## Trogdor

Just can't catch a damn break.


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## RRUserious

Well, during the whole tax-cutting, military gorging last 30 years, a few timid voices asked what was going to keep this a first-class economy with so little infrastructure investment. I think maybe parts of the answer are coming clear. You misallocate for decades, and eventually you end up with the consequences. And, of course, now we have such a crushing debt load, the decisions are not any easier. Things don't crumble all at once. Little bits fall off daily, and given enough time, the change is enough to notice. I'm guessing the parts that are falling apart the fastest are those least interesting to the money behind the throne. That's the way of all empires.


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## The Davy Crockett

I'm planning on riding behind #8 from MSP on Friday. This could get 'interesting' hboy:


----------



## Hawkeye

Wow, I'm so glad I switched to the CZ in Omaha for our Friday trip back east! The poor EB cannot catch a break!


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## amamba

Yeah now the Amtrak folks are saying we are welcome to roam Glasgow for the next four hours (until midnight mountain time) at which point our crew will have timed out anyway. I talked to a BNSF guy and apparently they need a hazmat crew at the scene and the say we aren't making it through until 12 tomorrow at the earliest. It is 8 pm and I just had dinner in the diner and will now proceed to drink the bottle of wine I won st the wine tasting. Wish me luck in catching the Thursday zLSL ( 30 hr connection).


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## The Davy Crockett

amamba said:


> Major derailment in Montana. I am on #8(16) and I believe we will be in Glasgow Montana for hours. The scanner is blowing up with cars on fire and supposedly at least 16 BNSF cara detailed. They have been discussing on te scanner whether we might go back to havre and be bussed or stay here in Glasgow for the duration until the track is clear.



Thanks for the 'on the scene' information! Please keep us posted!

EDIT: Just read your latest... :wacko: Truly best of luck with the LSL connection! _Usually_ an extra day is enough time to make it!


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## amamba

On a plus note we still have hEP and my Verizon mifi is working. It could be worse!


----------



## musikdude

Pardon me in advance if this seems a naive or dumb question, but is this stretch of track that the EB travels on (where this derailment happened) considered, in general, that safe of an area in terms of passenger train travel??


----------



## Ispolkom

The Davy Crockett said:


> I'm planning on riding behind #8 from MSP on Friday. This could get 'interesting' hboy:


Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have prepaid for that room at the Palmer House for Friday night. Mrs. Ispolkom was looking forward to riding the Cedar Rapids in the morning.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Ispolkom said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm planning on riding behind #8 from MSP on Friday. This could get 'interesting' hboy:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have prepaid for that room at the Palmer House for Friday night. Mrs. Ispolkom was looking forward to riding the Cedar Rapids in the morning.
Click to expand...


Well maybe we can at least sit in it and dream? :unsure:

Or maybe a couple of people can take turns sitting in it while the rest of us push really hard. :blink:

Whatever the case, I hope to meet you and say 'Hi!"


----------



## Ispolkom

The Davy Crockett said:


> Well maybe we can at least sit in it and dream? :unsure:
> 
> Or maybe a couple of people can take turns sitting in it while the rest of us push really hard. :blink:
> 
> Whatever the case, I hope to meet you and say 'Hi!"


We live in hope. Here's an article with picture about the derailment. My favorite quote: "A similar derailment happened in November 2011, about 5 miles east." I thought BNSF was pretty good about maintenance of way, but this year on the Hi-Line, I'm beginning to doubt.

*Amamba*, good luck! Look on the bright side. It's not January.

EDIT TO ADD: Oh, shoot. I'm going to be going through on the Empire Builder next January.


----------



## amamba

The rumor on the train is that a bunch of the cars that detailed had hazardous materials in them. Don't know how accurate that is. Thanks for the link to the Billings Gazette.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all of us.

Hate to think of how my hands are going to feel in the morning.


----------



## TraneMan

Ugh.. Poor EB...

Wonder how long it will to get the traffic back to norm? 7(16) done pretty good all the way though.


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## Texan Eagle

Is it just me or really the freight railroads, particularly BNSF's EB route, is having one way too many derailments too frequently? Infrastructure crumbling? Cutting corners to squeeze in more freight? Something's gotta give.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

amamba said:


> The rumor on the train is that a bunch of the cars that detailed had hazardous materials in them. Don't know how accurate that is. Thanks for the link to the Billings Gazette.


I can't wait until they finally open up Yucca Mountain and spend the next few decades transporting the world's largest stockpile of nuclear waste by truck and train to its next temporary resting area. We might be OK with one derailment. Maybe even two or three. But eventually some structural or manufacturing anomaly is going to give and it when it does it certainly won't be pretty. Just imagine how long the tracks will be unusable after that. Months? Years? Decades? Who knows.


----------



## anir dendroica

I wonder how many millions of $$ it costs BNSF or insurance companies when a Z train derails? Certainly a lot more lost value and less potential for salvage than grain or coal.

Looks like quite a pileup from the photos - I would guess at least 24 hours to clear, especially if they try to salvage cargo from the less-damaged trailers.

Mark


----------



## Montana traveller

All the derailments appear to be freight, and so thankfully no injuries. Has anybody got any ideas why only freight and not passenger services are having problems?


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## Eric S

Montana traveller said:


> All the derailments appear to be freight, and so thankfully no injuries. Has anybody got any ideas why only freight and not passenger services are having problems?


Well, for one thing there are many times more freight trains than passenger trains operating in the country, and on the BNSF tracks in question.


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## The Davy Crockett

Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL. Definately a bad sign, but there is still time for things to improve. I kinda get the feeling I might be starting to watch a train wreck... oh wait. hboy:


----------



## RRUserious

Texan Eagle said:


> Is it just me or really the freight railroads, particularly BNSF's EB route, is having one way too many derailments too frequently? Infrastructure crumbling? Cutting corners to squeeze in more freight? Something's gotta give.


Remember when they thought it would be safe to move nuclear waste to Nevada by train? But I know those trains would be different. No derailments due to careful NRC planning. Or so my dreams went.


----------



## amamba

Well we still sitting in Glasgow. Rumor has it - via an announcement just made - that we are going to attempt a bus bridge to the 7 at wolf point. Of course they aren't due for several hours so they said expect another 4-5 hour wait for that.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

amamba said:


> Well we still sitting in Glasgow. Rumor has it - via an announcement just made - that we are going to attempt a bus bridge to the 7 at wolf point. Of course they aren't due for several hours so they said expect another 4-5 hour wait for that.


It is for times like this that a good book comes in handy. Hope you have one, or can find something online.

...At least a bus bridge would be better than heading back west, which would certainly complicate the LSL connection.


----------



## amamba

I do have several books on my kindle. I am just hoping to make the LsL on thurs at this point. I don't mind missing my day in CHI but I do need to get home.


----------



## EB_OBS

Amtrak is rounding up the buses right now to bus-bridge #8 from Glasgow to Wolf Point and #7 from Wolf Point to Glasgow.


----------



## Trogdor

The Davy Crockett said:


> Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL.


???? 8(18) isn't even scheduled to leave SEA for another 9 hours. How could it be 36 minutes late into DVL?


----------



## EB_OBS

Trogdor said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL.
> 
> 
> 
> ???? 8(18) isn't even scheduled to leave SEA for another 9 hours. How could it be 36 minutes late into DVL?
Click to expand...

I think he meant #7(17) since DVL is the station code for Devil's Lake. That train is running about 2 hours behind schedule and is due into MOT shortly.


----------



## Russell

Well, should I start worrying now then, the 7(17) is the train I am supossed to be taking out of Pasco tommorrow (Thursday) and am scheduled to make a connection with the Cascades Train(506) leaving Portland at 12:15 tommorrow afternoon, should I start worrying now about making that connection, or just wait and see what happens.


----------



## anir dendroica

With the bus bridge #7(17) will turn in Wolf Point to become #8(16), and the #8(16) that has been stuck in Glasgow for the last 16 hours will turn to become #7(17).

Usually bus bridges introduce at least four-hour delays with unscheduled turning, cleaning, food restocking, etc., so I wouldn't be on #27 being anywhere near on time in Pasco.

Now once #7(17) turns to become #8 (16), the train will be almost 24 hours late and thus Chicago will be short a trainset for #7(19) tomorrow. I wonder if they have enough equipment to cobble together or if they will have to cancel the train?

Mark


----------



## amamba

Do they get two sets of buses? Does our OBS staff go with us or stay with the train?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Trogdor said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL.
> 
> 
> 
> ???? 8(18) isn't even scheduled to leave SEA for another 9 hours. How could it be 36 minutes late into DVL?
Click to expand...

My mistake. I meant #8(17), which is now 8 hours 49 minutes late...


----------



## amamba

Oh they just said that buses are en route. We should be back at train by 12:30 pm and then we will load bus at 1:30 to wolf point. They said its 45 minutes to wolf point. So we are looking at 24 hourish delay. It could be worse - we are at the station so we have been free to wander around town. I had dinner and breakfast in the diner and they said lunch will start at 11:30 in the diner.


----------



## amamba

Ok just corrected that to loading at 12 pm.


----------



## Russell

I wonder if this will affect the 8(19) leaving seattle, and the 7 that is scheduled to arrive in Spokane Saturday morning, I am taking a big trip around the state, not to worried or anything, but just wonder how this is going to affect the Empire Builder portions of my trip.


----------



## Ispolkom

The Davy Crockett said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL.
> 
> 
> 
> ???? 8(18) isn't even scheduled to leave SEA for another 9 hours. How could it be 36 minutes late into DVL?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake. I meant #8(17), which is now 8 hours 49 minutes late...
Click to expand...

That can't be right. Train #8(16), which amamba is stuck on, is in Glasgow. Train #8(17) left Whitefish at 9:36 a.m., according to Amtrak Status Maps. What amtrak.com is recording must be #7(17), plodding westward. FWIW, #8(15) arrived in Chicago last night at 8:23 p.m.


----------



## fairviewroad

amamba said:


> Oh they just said that buses are en route. We should be back at train by 12:30 pm and then we will load bus at 1:30 to wolf point. They said its 45 minutes to wolf point. So we are looking at 24 hourish delay. It could be worse - we are at the station so we have been free to wander around town. I had dinner and breakfast in the diner and they said lunch will start at 11:30 in the diner.


Well, you should be able to get a reasonably decent view of the derailment from the bus, since I think the tracks are fairly close to Hwy 2 at that point. So at least

you'll all be able to boo and hiss at the cause of your delay!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

EB_OBS said:


> I'm sure this answer isn't going to please some of you and it's certainly not convenient for the displaced passengers, however, here it is; Force Majeure Event This information can be found under "Terms of Transportation" at the bottom of the page on the Amtrak website. Obviously, anyone can then purchase a ticket on the next train if there is space available. In this particular instance, #28(15) was fully booked so an extra coach was added to accommodate any passengers from the train that returned to Portland with all the passengers which was #28(14). Unfortunately, if you previously had a sleeper, there were only two or three rooms still available on the 15th.


I tend to give Amtrak a little more leeway in matters such as this because Amtrak allows you to unwind most standard coach fares if something goes wrong on your end as well. It's not quite as simple for sleeper tickets or discounted coach tickets, but it's still not as punitive compared as many transportation companies. That being said, it's still not easy or cheap to secure a last minute flight or rental car on your own. I think your post makes an important point that is often missing from the usual newbie threads. Namely, that Amtrak can be a riskier proposition than some folks may realize on their own. Although this is not yet a critical problem it does seem to be growing and some routes seem to be suffering chronic delays as freight traffic returns to pre-recession levels. It's common to see new and potential customers being told that Amtrak "guarantees" transportation to their destination no matter what and that even if the train can't run alternatives will be provided. However, over the last couple years we've seen a growing number of instances where no alternatives were available or provided.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Ispolkom said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL.
> 
> 
> 
> ???? 8(18) isn't even scheduled to leave SEA for another 9 hours. How could it be 36 minutes late into DVL?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake. I meant #8(17), which is now 8 hours 49 minutes late...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That can't be right. Train #8(16), which amamba is stuck on, is in Glasgow. Train #8(17) left Whitefish at 9:36 a.m., according to Amtrak Status Maps. What amtrak.com is recording must be #7(17), plodding westward. FWIW, #8(15) arrived in Chicago last night at 8:23 p.m.
Click to expand...


I should have said Amtrak is showing 8(17) as running 8 Hours, 47 minutes late into DVL.. I picked DVL because it is past the derailment. I'm happy they are not showing 8(17) as in a service disruption, but that sure doesn't mean things can't change - unfortunately, based on past experiences I've had with Amtrak.com - it seems to be a wild 'donkeyed' guess on Amtrak's part.


----------



## Trogdor

Ispolkom said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL.
> 
> 
> 
> ???? 8(18) isn't even scheduled to leave SEA for another 9 hours. How could it be 36 minutes late into DVL?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake. I meant #8(17), which is now 8 hours 49 minutes late...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That can't be right. Train #8(16), which amamba is stuck on, is in Glasgow. Train #8(17) left Whitefish at 9:36 a.m., according to Amtrak Status Maps. What amtrak.com is recording must be #7(17), plodding westward. FWIW, #8(15) arrived in Chicago last night at 8:23 p.m.
Click to expand...

8(17) is going to hold in Shelby until 9 pm, because BNSF isn't expecting the line to reopen until early tomorrow morning. That way the crew won't die sitting in HAV or GGW for hours.


----------



## EB_OBS

Russell said:


> Well, should I start worrying now then, the 7(17) is the train I am supossed to be taking out of Pasco tommorrow (Thursday) and am scheduled to make a connection with the Cascades Train(506) leaving Portland at 12:15 tommorrow afternoon, should I start worrying now about making that connection, or just wait and see what happens.



There will be an on-time bus departing Spokane at the scheduled 2:45AM time. As of this moment the #7/27(17) is expected to be running four - five hours late minimum by the time it departs Glasgow, MT west.


----------



## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> Do they get two sets of buses? Does our OBS staff go with us or stay with the train?


Most of the OBS staff is going to stay with the equipment they are already on. The exception is the Chicago based crew, the 2x30 SCA, the 14 & 15 TAC and the Lounge LSA are going to bus-bridge with the passengers.


----------



## EB_OBS

The Davy Crockett said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Amamba's #8 is in a service disruption. :angry2: And today's #8(18) is *ALREADY* running 36 minutes late into DVL.
> 
> 
> 
> ???? 8(18) isn't even scheduled to leave SEA for another 9 hours. How could it be 36 minutes late into DVL?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mistake. I meant #8(17), which is now 8 hours 49 minutes late...
Click to expand...

Train #8(17) departed Whitefish, MT at 9:57AM, 2 hours 11 minutes late.


----------



## amamba

Oh bummer I love our dining car crew. They are really great and have been so cheerful during this delay. As sleeper pax we still seem to be getting all our meals. I am still hoping I will make it to CHI in time for me to catch the LSL on Thursday.


----------



## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> Oh bummer I love our dining car crew. They are really great and have been so cheerful during this delay. As sleeper pax we still seem to be getting all our meals. I am still hoping I will make it to CHI in time for me to catch the LSL on Thursday.


Ha! Yeah, you've had Mary, Danielle and Randy in the dining car. Good crew.


----------



## amamba

Hrmmmm now we are just sitting just east of the station. No lunch for sleeper pax and I think there might be a riot....lots of grumbles. It is 12:30 and I think we would all just feel good if we were at least on the buses.


----------



## amamba

Now we are in the BnSF yard with no HEP. We did get snack packs. I am starting to be very tired of the situation. And antsy.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Amamba, I'm sorry you're stuck with this mess, but thanks for keeping us updated. Reading this thread is kind of like watching a train wreck in slow motion. As bad as it sounds I can't seem to look away. I have a long trip across three Western routes scheduled for next week and, well, I'm trying not to think about that too much right now. :unsure:


----------



## Trainut

We were suppose to take the EB from MSP to CHI, tomorrow Thursday July 19, but, got a call from Amtrak saying that we will be taking a bus from MSP to CHI. Bummer. They don't seem to know what is going on.


----------



## EB_OBS

Trainut said:


> They don't seem to know what is going on.



Sure they do. The train is stuck in Montana, extremely late and thus, buses have been ordered to run on-time between MSP and CHI.


----------



## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> Hrmmmm now we are just sitting just east of the station. No lunch for sleeper pax and I think there might be a riot....lots of grumbles. It is 12:30 and I think we would all just feel good if we were at least on the buses.


I was told they'd be putting Subway lunch boxes on the buses for you. The train was moved in order to run the locomotives around to the west side of the train for the westbound departure.


----------



## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> Trainut said:
> 
> 
> 
> They don't seem to know what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they do. The train is stuck in Montana, extremely late and thus, buses have been ordered to run on-time between MSP and CHI.
Click to expand...

amtrak may or may not know what's going on but they may be doing an inconsistent job of relaying that info to passengers


----------



## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> And antsy.


On the last call I listened to, Chicago is scrambling to get equipment together for #7(19) tomorrow, this will leave them short though and so they are currently counting on the equipment turning at Wolf Point to arrive into Chicago as #8(16) approx. 23 hours late. I believe that gives just around six hours leeway for your LSL departure.


----------



## EB_OBS

yarrow said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trainut said:
> 
> 
> 
> They don't seem to know what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they do. The train is stuck in Montana, extremely late and thus, buses have been ordered to run on-time between MSP and CHI.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> amtrak may or may not know what's going on but they may be doing an inconsistent job of relaying that info to passengers
Click to expand...

I'm not going to agree or deny that, however, in the context of Trainut's post, it seems clear that Amtrak knows the train is extremely late and is calling passengers. Amtrak knows it needs to order buses so passengers can travel on-time to their destinations and connections and is calling passengers. Amtrak has confirmed said buses so is actively calling passengers. I guess I just fail to see what additionally can or should be done. I'm open to suggestions and would be happy to pass them along.


----------



## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trainut said:
> 
> 
> 
> They don't seem to know what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure they do. The train is stuck in Montana, extremely late and thus, buses have been ordered to run on-time between MSP and CHI.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> amtrak may or may not know what's going on but they may be doing an inconsistent job of relaying that info to passengers
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not going to agree or deny that, however, in the context of Trainut's post, it seems clear that Amtrak knows the train is extremely late and is calling passengers. Amtrak knows it needs to order buses so passengers can travel on-time to their destinations and connections and is calling passengers. Amtrak has confirmed said buses so is actively calling passengers. I guess I just fail to see what additionally can or should be done. I'm open to suggestions and would be happy to pass them along.
Click to expand...

i really value your posts as you are someone who actually does know what is going on. i have had enough calls from amtrak that such and such is going to happen and it doesn't. last year we were on an 18 hour late eb into chi and we were told many conflicting things about what would be done with us and when we finally got to cus were told we would be bussed to was (actually first we were going to be bussed to nyp and then ne regional to was but they changed that). cute little 18 hour ride in a bus with non functioning facilites. we were told right before we detrained that we would be spending the night in chi. to relate other things we were told on that and other trips would take too much time to no particular effect. in this case, trainnut is evidently not too happy. that should be a problem for amtrak. trainut's concerns were evidently not well addressed by the representative who called


----------



## EB_OBS

I'm crossing my fingers that nothing gets any worse than it already is. In the middle of preparing for possible terminating #7 in Spokane tomorrow morning. That decision has still not been made though so all plans are tentative.

At the moment though, I'll be AFK for a while. I'm still up from last night. I need some rest before tonight. It's looking to be a long one.


----------



## amamba

So they started serving lunch in the diner. We got called down, ordered, and then they started loading the buses. So we didn't get lunch and there were no subway lunch boxes on the bus. We are now on the bus and have just pulled into Wolf Point. I can see the train and it looks like an earlier bus is being unloaded and pax are getting on the train. So no lunch for me but some ppl get lunch.


----------



## amamba

And a quick update - we are now on the new train in wolf point! No lunch materialized for us but the car attendant just said we are going to do the wine and cheese tasting again (since they are stocked for it). And I just took a Xanax so now I am good to go.


----------



## Bob Dylan

amamba said:


> So they started serving lunch in the diner. We got called down, ordered, and then they started loading the buses. So we didn't get lunch and there were no subway lunch boxes on the bus. We are now on the bus and have just pulled into Wolf Point. I can see the train and it looks like an earlier bus is being unloaded and pax are getting on the train. So no lunch for me but some ppl get lunch.


Since youre an AU Pro you know what you gotta do! Call when you get home, the Voucher will be on the Computer! Hope the rest of the Journey gets back on Track, so to speak! :lol:


----------



## Devil's Advocate

amamba said:


> And a quick update - we are now on the new train in wolf point! No lunch materialized for us but the car attendant just said we are going to do the wine and cheese tasting again (since they are stocked for it). And I just took a Xanax so now I am good to go.


Well that doesn't sound so bad. 

I hope you write up a nice big trip report when you're done with lots of pictures. :unsure:


----------



## amamba

And I just wanted to add that I think the OBS and Amtrak folks have been great during this delay. We had David on the first train and now Eric on the second as an SCA. Everyone was really good and I think they gave us realistic expectations of what is going on - minus no sandwich for lunch. 

Now I am just a little nervous about making that connection bc Eric said we might not get to chicago until more like 8 pm. But it's still only 3 and the train doesn't leave wolf point normally until 4:30 pm anyways.


----------



## amamba

You can tea about my trip so far at trainsacrossamerica.blogspot.com. I only have text and no photos from te train part bc I have some data caps on my mifi. The mifi is working but I have had no cell service for 24 hours.


----------



## amamba

Sorry for typos on phone.


----------



## Donctor

EB_OBS said:


> I'm open to suggestions and would be happy to pass them along.


I dig your good attitude. I think the way you interact with people is great.


----------



## Ryan

Seconded. If I'm ever in your neck of the woods EB_OBS, the first beer's on me. (Likewise if you ever find your way to WAS)


----------



## amamba

I will personally buy OBS a beer if he is on this train. We are still sitting in wolf point. I think they didn't have enough buses so sIleeper pax were brought over to wolf point first. I now see another bus has just arrived from Glasgow and it looks like people are getting off and hopefully onto the train. I will feel a lot better once I eat bc I am cranky from nO lunch and they haven't taken any dinner reservations and it is 5 pm. Also now we are over 24 hours late but maybe we can pick up some time as we travel. But if there are slow orders for heat I don't know about that. Some poor people from the 7 have been stuck outside with their stuff in the heat for 2+ hours.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Ryan said:


> Seconded. If I'm ever in your neck of the woods EB_OBS, the first beer's on me. (Likewise if you ever find your way to WAS)


I'll gladly third this, and the next round of beers will be on me, if EB_OBS ever gets to WAS.


----------



## amamba

Ok now my cheerful roll with the punches demeanor is gone. They finally just got everyone over here - 5 hours later. I don't get lunch and then we finally got dinner and they wre half portions with no bread, salad or dessert.

Now our crew just timed out and we have to wait for a new one to come from god knows where. I am hungry and cranky.


----------



## amamba

I should add we are now 26 hours delayed.


----------



## EB_OBS

Just woke up from a nap. I'm sorry, it doesn't look like the busing has gone smoothly. There weren't enough buses on both sides to completely transport every passenger so some buses had to return to pick up more passengers. That's really throwing a couple extra hours into both trains anticipated departures.

Still no word on whether #7 will terminate in Spokane, but at 8 or so hours late it's almost a forgone conclusion. Although with the trials and tribulations already encountered we may just take the hit on 8/28 and let it continue on into Seattle and Portland.


----------



## Russell

I just got a call from Amtrak stating "Service Interuption" Alternate transportation is being provide over some or all of the 27(19) route between Spkoane and Portland, been trying to call the 1-877 number provided, no luck yet, so this means that there will be no train service then between Spokane and Portland, right? And Does this mean there will be a bus, like if I can't get a hold of the, should I just go to the station in the morning and expect a bus to be there, or what?


----------



## Russell

Sorry, meant to say due to a "Service Interuption"


----------



## yarrow

amamba said:


> Ok now my cheerful roll with the punches demeanor is gone. They finally just got everyone over here - 5 hours later. I don't get lunch and then we finally got dinner and they wre half portions with no bread, salad or dessert.
> 
> Now our crew just timed out and we have to wait for a new one to come from god knows where. I am hungry and cranky.


been there, done that. too bad what this is doing to your trip


----------



## JayPea

Russell said:


> I just got a call from Amtrak stating "Service Interuption" Alternate transportation is being provide over some or all of the 27(19) route between Spkoane and Portland, been trying to call the 1-877 number provided, no luck yet, so this means that there will be no train service then between Spokane and Portland, right? And Does this mean there will be a bus, like if I can't get a hold of the, should I just go to the station in the morning and expect a bus to be there, or what?



That means there should be a bus available, yes. And if it's anything like what happened to me last year, when the EB from Spokane to Seattle was very late, the alternative bus for those wishing to make it to Seattle on time left precisely at the time the train was supposed to. I wanted to take a 5 1/2 hour late train rather than the bus, and the Amtrak representative I talked to on the phone couldn't understand it. If I'd wanted to take a bus to Seattle, I'd have caught the Thruway bus that has a stop right in front of my apartment. I guess it boggled her mind I wanted to take the train just to be taking the train, no matter how late it was.  Besides, I got to see views west of Spokane I'd never seen in the daylight, not that I haven't seen such scenes 1000000s of times before. But I would keep trying the 1-877 number until I got ahold of someone.


----------



## EB_OBS

Russell said:


> I just got a call from Amtrak stating "Service Interuption" Alternate transportation is being provide over some or all of the 27(19) route between Spkoane and Portland, been trying to call the 1-877 number provided, no luck yet, so this means that there will be no train service then between Spokane and Portland, right? And Does this mean there will be a bus, like if I can't get a hold of the, should I just go to the station in the morning and expect a bus to be there, or what?


There will be an on-time bus departing Spokane at 2:45AM, making all train #27's normal stops.

Additionally, connecting buses have already been arranged for all passengers detraining in SPK for all points West. Right now, my best guess on that train's ETA is 9:00AM or later.


----------



## EB_OBS

yarrow said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok now my cheerful roll with the punches demeanor is gone. They finally just got everyone over here - 5 hours later. I don't get lunch and then we finally got dinner and they wre half portions with no bread, salad or dessert.
> 
> Now our crew just timed out and we have to wait for a new one to come from god knows where. I am hungry and cranky.
> 
> 
> 
> been there, done that. too bad what this is doing to your trip
Click to expand...

Jeez! I can't believe this train is still sitting there. I'm finding out the busing has had some significant problems. I'm sorry folks, I wish I could do more.


----------



## EB_OBS

Update, WiTronix shows that both trains are now finally on the move.


----------



## amamba

EB_OBS the best thing would be if we cPul just get some food. I don't understand why they couldn't bring in some subs or something. I am just still starving after dinner so that doesn't really help the situation. If I had known we were going to half portion I would have happily bought some food in Glasgow.

I appreciate your helpfulness in posting updates. Now we are underway, having left WPT 28 hours late. Now I am super worried about that LSL connection tomorrow. Plus I booked two separate reservations so I don't know if anyone knows about our connection when they consider arrangements for pax. I don't know if we will be able to make up any time en route but I guess as long as we don't lose time we might be OK.


----------



## Russell

EB_OBS said:


> Russell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just got a call from Amtrak stating "Service Interuption" Alternate transportation is being provide over some or all of the 27(19) route between Spkoane and Portland, been trying to call the 1-877 number provided, no luck yet, so this means that there will be no train service then between Spokane and Portland, right? And Does this mean there will be a bus, like if I can't get a hold of the, should I just go to the station in the morning and expect a bus to be there, or what?
> 
> 
> 
> There will be an on-time bus departing Spokane at 2:45AM, making all train #27's normal stops.
> 
> Additionally, connecting buses have already been arranged for all passengers detraining in SPK for all points West. Right now, my best guess on that train's ETA is 9:00AM or later.
Click to expand...

So, should I continue to try and call the 877 number, I have been on hold for an hour and a half each time I have tried before hanging up, or should I just arrive at the station tommorrow morning.


----------



## amamba

EB_OBS the best thing would be if we cPul just get some food. I don't understand why they couldn't bring in some subs or something. I am just still starving after dinner so that doesn't really help the situation. If I had known we were going to half portion I would have happily bought some food in Glasgow.

I appreciate your helpfulness in posting updates. Now we are underway, having left WPT 28 hours late. Now I am super worried about that LSL connection tomorrow. Plus I booked two separate reservations so I don't know if anyone knows about our connection when they consider arrangements for pax. I don't know if we will be able to make up any time en route but I guess as long as we don't lose time we might be OK.


----------



## EB_OBS

Amamba, I sent you a PM.


----------



## amamba

Huge props to my sCA who just brought us two more chicken dinners from the diner. He is getting a nice tip.


----------



## montana mike

This has been a very bad week for the EB. Now I see the westbound #7, which left CHI on time and was doing just fine into WI has experienced a service disruption between Tomah, WI and LaCrosse!! Good grief. Can it get much worse? Does anyone know what is causing this train's disruption?

Hopefully the BNSF folks will have the tracks back in operation momentarily in Eastern MT.

:-(


----------



## TraneMan

amamba said:


> Huge props to my sCA who just brought us two more chicken dinners from the diner. He is getting a nice tip.


Glad to hear you got some food!


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> This has been a very bad week for the EB. Now I see the westbound #7, which left CHI on time and was doing just fine into WI has experienced a service disruption between Tomah, WI and LaCrosse!! Good grief. Can it get much worse? Does anyone know what is causing this train's disruption?
> 
> Hopefully the BNSF folks will have the tracks back in operation momentarily in Eastern MT.
> 
> :-(


Not sure why the Map is showing SD, Check the Amtrak App on my phone and it shows It has arrived MSP 8 min late, and left on time (11:15).


----------



## montana mike

TraneMan said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has been a very bad week for the EB. Now I see the westbound #7, which left CHI on time and was doing just fine into WI has experienced a service disruption between Tomah, WI and LaCrosse!! Good grief. Can it get much worse? Does anyone know what is causing this train's disruption?
> 
> Hopefully the BNSF folks will have the tracks back in operation momentarily in Eastern MT.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure why the Map is showing SD, Check the Amtrak App on my phone and it shows It has arrived MSP 8 min late, and left on time (11:15).
Click to expand...

Whew--glad this looks like it's just an "electronic" malfunction this time! Thanks.


----------



## amamba

Is there anyway to get an updated ETA into CHi on my very late EB? I am now estimating we are 29 hours back and tryin to decide if I should call AGR and snag a room on the 20th. Looks like some are still available.


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has been a very bad week for the EB. Now I see the westbound #7, which left CHI on time and was doing just fine into WI has experienced a service disruption between Tomah, WI and LaCrosse!! Good grief. Can it get much worse? Does anyone know what is causing this train's disruption?
> 
> Hopefully the BNSF folks will have the tracks back in operation momentarily in Eastern MT.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure why the Map is showing SD, Check the Amtrak App on my phone and it shows It has arrived MSP 8 min late, and left on time (11:15).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whew--glad this looks like it's just an "electronic" malfunction this time! Thanks.
Click to expand...

As of now, it's due to be into Rugby about an hour late.


----------



## tim49424

> Not sure why the Map is showing SD, Check the Amtrak App on my phone and it shows It has arrived MSP 8 min late, and left on time (11:15).



The Amtrak app. Usually more accurate than the map. I haven't checked mine yet! And you accused me of getting off the train in TOH last night and taking it with me. LOL It's all the map's fault!


----------



## TraneMan

LOL Well, I've heard some pretty odd things you've done, so I wouldn't be surprised if you did do that! :giggle:


----------



## TraneMan

8(16) has left Fargo abou 7:40 this morning.


----------



## Ispolkom

amamba said:


> Is there anyway to get an updated ETA into CHi on my very late EB? I am now estimating we are 29 hours back and tryin to decide if I should call AGR and snag a room on the 20th. Looks like some are still available.


It's more like 29.5 hours late out of Fargo. You're still a long way from Chicago, and any ETA would simply be guesswork. Is there track work in Wisconsin today? Is the CP dispatcher going to put you in the hole for a coal train? Is there congestion between your location and St. Paul that would delay you? No one, absolutely no one, can tell you when your train will arrive in Chicago. There is a truism though; a late train only gets later.

If I were you I'd call AGR. I'd rather spend a day in Chicago and be sure that I had a sleeper for the rest of my trip than either a) be worried down to the wire about whether I'm going to make my connection b) miss the connection and make the next leg in coach.


----------



## amamba

Yeah I called AGR and they assured me we were due into CHI at 7:30 tonight. So that sounds like more misinformation. Gahhh. She encouraged me to keep my original reservation for tonight's LSL. Does the train ever make up time between Fargo and CHI?


----------



## TraneMan

amamba said:


> . Does the train ever make up time between Fargo and CHI?


It MAY cut an hour, but track work in WI may add that hour back on again.


----------



## Hawkeye

Ack, sorry you are having such a rough trip! If you do end up on the Friday LSL, we'll have to look each other up  we are on the CZ tomorrow morning and then the LSL. I'll be the one with the excited 8-year-old boy.


----------



## TrainLoverJoy

As I have a September round trip reserved on the EB, I've been watching the lateness stats. Today it appears it will be over 8 hours late (YIKES!) which means in will arrive at Union Station after midnight. Will there be anyone at the station that late to hand out hotel vouchers for us who miss our connections?


----------



## amamba

Ahhhh now I am totally f'ed. They have now blocked everything out of CHI on Friday so I can't change my res.


----------



## montana mike

Hmmm, I was just at the WFH station and they were saying the #7 for this evening was likely going to be very late, so there must still be some issues from either the derailment or other factors. I just saw the #7 that was due in at 8:56 PM LAST night arrive at 7:30 AM today (over 10 hours behind schedule), being pulled by a BNSF engine-they couldn't turn the train. According to the engineer they will stop the train in SPK and bus people to/ from SEA.

On the plus side, the eastbound #8 was almost on time (actually had to wait until the very late #7 left the station to come in), so perhaps things will get back to "normal", whatever that is these days, soon.



TraneMan said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has been a very bad week for the EB. Now I see the westbound #7, which left CHI on time and was doing just fine into WI has experienced a service disruption between Tomah, WI and LaCrosse!! Good grief. Can it get much worse? Does anyone know what is causing this train's disruption?
> 
> Hopefully the BNSF folks will have the tracks back in operation momentarily in Eastern MT.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure why the Map is showing SD, Check the Amtrak App on my phone and it shows It has arrived MSP 8 min late, and left on time (11:15).
Click to expand...


----------



## JayPea

montana mike said:


> Hmmm, I was just at the WFH station and they were saying the #7 for this evening was likely going to be very late, so there must still be some issues from either the derailment or other factors. I just saw the #7 that was due in at 8:56 PM LAST night arrive at 7:30 AM today (over 10 hours behind schedule), being pulled by a BNSF engine-they couldn't turn the train. According to the engineer they will stop the train in SPK and bus people to/ from SEA.
> 
> On the plus side, the eastbound #8 was almost on time (actually had to wait until the very late #7 left the station to come in), so perhaps things will get back to "normal", whatever that is these days, soon.
> 
> 
> 
> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> This has been a very bad week for the EB. Now I see the westbound #7, which left CHI on time and was doing just fine into WI has experienced a service disruption between Tomah, WI and LaCrosse!! Good grief. Can it get much worse? Does anyone know what is causing this train's disruption?
> 
> Hopefully the BNSF folks will have the tracks back in operation momentarily in Eastern MT.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure why the Map is showing SD, Check the Amtrak App on my phone and it shows It has arrived MSP 8 min late, and left on time (11:15).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I'm not going anywhere on the EB or any other train for that matter in the near future but for the sake of the folks who are, I do hope things settle down with the EB. Yesterday's #7 arrived in Seattle 21 minutes early. That's twice in two weeks it was early. Hope that is a sign of better days ahead.


----------



## MrFSS

I've merged some new topic starts on this same subject into this thread. Lets use it for all the EB late discussion.

Thanks!!


----------



## anir dendroica

BNSF reports that the track reopened at 12:30 am this morning. Looks like #8(17) got through and is now 12 1/2 hours late in Minot. Can't track #7(18) as it has disappeared from the map, but it is presently somewhere in North Dakota.


----------



## amamba

I love trains but I just want to go home now


----------



## TraneMan

anir dendroica said:


> BNSF reports that the track reopened at 12:30 am this morning. Looks like #8(17) got through and is now 12 1/2 hours late in Minot. Can't track #7(18) as it has disappeared from the map, but it is presently somewhere in North Dakota.


#7(18) has arrived in Stanley at 10:32am. (about 35 min late)


----------



## Trogdor

For what it's worth, I'm told the plan is to hold connections in Chicago. Things could change, as they frequently do, but there's a (hopefully) halfway-decent chance you can get onto 48 tonight.


----------



## amamba

If I could make the 48/448 in CHI I would be eternally grateful. My only concern is that I haven't printed out my ticket yet - why would I when I had a 29.5 hour connection time? I hope that won't be an issue. Also I had two seperate reservations so my original ticket looks like CHI is my final destination.

However, the car attendant did come by and take some info. I let him know that I was already reserved for tonight's 48/448 so hopefully that helps. I guess the other good thing is that 8(17) is also running late, I believe too late to make the connection with the LSL. So maybe that frees up some sleeper space for folks on my train with connections. I met two other couples that were supposed to be on last night's LSL (Boston section).

Do they ever take ppl off a late western train and bus them into CHI to meet connections like they do on a late SWC?


----------



## amamba

PS - we just left St. Cloud. So even if we were 100% on time from here, I think that gives us a 9:30 pm arrival into CHI.


----------



## Trogdor

amamba said:


> Do they ever take ppl off a late western train and bus them into CHI to meet connections like they do on a late SWC?


I think by "late SWC" you mean a late westbound, where they bus people to Bakersfield/San Joaquin connection to catch up to the Starlight in Oakland.

In Chicago, the answer is no. With the exception of the Cardinal, the trains to/from Chicago are on fairly direct, fast routings (lots of 79 mph running), and unless there was a known, massive delay coming up (and there *should be* nothing major between St. Paul and Chicago), there's no guarantee that a bus would do any better than a train.

The "busing to catch up with a connection" procedure only works when the train has a slow, winding route (such as along the Pacific coast or through the mountains) compared to a direct highway, or when the road connection can give you a shortcut to some other place on your connecting train's route (such as busing Galseburg/Normal to Indianapolis in the case of the Cardinal).

Someone connecting from, for example, the Empire Builder to the Lake Shore Limited is better off staying on the train than taking a bus. Best-case scenario for both is a run just under seven hours (though the Builder would be slightly longer due to dwell at stations; seven hours is the best time to make while moving), at least with the train, Amtrak is aware of where it is and what's going on. If they were to take people off the train and put them on buses, not only would there be the associated delay with rounding up all of the people and getting them onto one or more buses (along with their bags), you also have to factor in a seven-hour (or longer) bus ride with no meal stops. If you add a meal stop, then the train is going to beat the bus. If the bus gets delayed, Amtrak may not have any way of knowing where the bus is or what its ETA is, and that makes it a questionable proposition for holding the connecting train.


----------



## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> Is there anyway to get an updated ETA into CHi on my very late EB? I am now estimating we are 29 hours back and tryin to decide if I should call AGR and snag a room on the 20th. Looks like some are still available.


Well the quick information I just checked shows ETA into Chicago at 7:20PM, 27 hours, 25 minutes late. Even if that's an hour off, sounds like you'll make the LSL connection.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

One would think they are blocking off the Lake Shore Limited to try rebook the passangers off your train. Amamba your splitting of the tickets is a wild card. Got my fingers crossed. This ones a mess. Sure hope they hold the eastern train tonight, but Amtrak might be thinking of all the people who missed there connection yesterday, to have them rebook onto tomorrows train, and not hold any trains tonight.

You should see some customer service people, before Chicago. Hope everthing works out.


----------



## fairviewroad

amamba said:


> I love trains but I just want to go home now


I totally understand this.

We're all rooting for you!


----------



## EB_OBS

There's about 50 minutes padding in the schedule at MSP and about 15 minutes of padding in the schedule at CHI, in addition, most passengers down the river are already bused so stops should be mostly limited to detraining and thus quick.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

amamba said:


> I love trains but I just want to go home now


Yeah, I think I'd be there too. The lack of information, the disorganization, or lack of meals, etc., etc., etc.


----------



## amamba

For everyone following along, we just left MSP at 12:40. The SCA and staff are feeling good that we will make it to cHI by 830ish or 9. I did print my tickets in MSP so at least I have them now.


----------



## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> For everyone following along, we just left MSP at 12:40. The SCA and staff are feeling good that we will make it to cHI by 830ish or 9. I did print my tickets in MSP so at least I have them now.


That's good. I was going to say that I've seen conductors call ahead to a manned station to have tickets printed. So, you could have still boarded the LSL, explained to the conductor the situation and they would have been able to get the tickets printed downline somewhere.

Good to hear you've already got them though.

Barring any additional delays, the schedule padding, you made up 41 minutes at MSP, should get you into Chicago before 9:00PM.


----------



## MrFSS

amamba said:


> For everyone following along, we just left MSP at 12:40. The SCA and staff are feeling good that we will make it to cHI by 830ish or 9. I did print my tickets in MSP so at least I have them now.


I'm really going to look forward to your trip report when this is all over.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Geez good luck amamba. I'm definitely rooting for you!


----------



## TraneMan

We are rooting for ya! Hang in there!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TraneMan said:


> We are rooting for ya!


Absolutely! Well, maybe except for BNSF. :lol:


----------



## amamba

Guess what we had for lunch - canned chicken stew over rice! Breakfast was scrambled eggs and a hamburger bun. They are providing comp meals to all the pax on the train.


----------



## OBS

Good Luck!...This is like "The Amazing Race"...LOL


----------



## Devil's Advocate

OBS said:


> Good Luck!...This is like "The Amazing Race"...LOL


----------



## AmtrakBlue

OBS said:


> Good Luck!...This is like "The Amazing Race"...LOL


Hopefully she's writing everything down so she can sell the movie rights to someone. Shall we have a "contest" for naming the movie?

"Taking the High Road Tracks to Chicago --- in 28 Days"


----------



## The Chief

Texas Sunset said:


> I can't wait until they finally open up Yucca Mountain and spend the next few decades transporting the world's largest stockpile of nuclear waste by truck and train to its next temporary resting area. ,,,


Wondering WT_ this has to do with the ^ *Empire Builder*_ Lateness Problems This Summer_ ^ thread?

Seems to be _way_ off topic.


----------



## smee

For those on the EB this weekend, this weather report from Glacier National park

Logan Pass Star Party Cancelled for this weekend (July 20 and July 21 makeup date). We are expecting a powerful storm through northwest Montana on Friday night. The Weather Service is predicting very unfavorable conditions including up to 2 inches of rain per hour, 1-inch hail, and winds up to 60 mph. The park is also under a flash flood watch for this period. We will have regular night viewing at Apgar and St Mary on Saturday night if skies are clear. The next Logan Pass star party is scheduled for August 17. (mw)


----------



## amamba

Then we just got stopped for 20 minutes with signal problems. OMFG. Conductor says her best guess is arrival between 9 and 9:30 PM in CHI.


----------



## EB_OBS

amamba said:


> Then we just got stopped for 20 minutes with signal problems. OMFG. Conductor says her best guess is arrival between 9 and 9:30 PM in CHI.


I have it on good authority that train 48 will be delayed tonight one hour. Expected departure being 10:45PM.


----------



## EB_OBS

I don't have definitive confirmation on this but I was also told they added another car to #48 to accommodate additional passengers.


----------



## amamba

Thank you, EB_OBS. I would sincerely like to thank everyone, in particular EB_OBS and Trogdor, who have helped to provide some information to me on this trip. It is greatly appreciated. This forum is such a wonderful place, and I consider myself lucky to call all of you my "internet friends."

According to amtrak.com right now and corroborated by EB_OBS, the expected departure of 48 is 10:40 PM. So I am keeping my fingers crossed that we can still make it.


----------



## MrFSS

AU Member RTabern was in CUS this afternoon and snapped the attached. He sent it to me asked me to post it as he wasn't in a position to do so.







He said half the board was EB stuff!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The Chief said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't wait until they finally open up Yucca Mountain and spend the next few decades transporting the world's largest stockpile of nuclear waste by truck and train to its next temporary resting area. ,,,
> 
> 
> 
> Wondering WT_ this has to do with the ^ *Empire Builder*_ Lateness Problems This Summer_ ^ thread? Seems to be _way_ off topic.
Click to expand...

Speaking of lateness, did you really want to me to comment further on that old post, or are you just posting to remind us that you forgot to whine about it two days ago? :wacko:


----------



## amamba

And we got KFC for dinner! Coach pax got subway. They loaded it in at Wisconsin Dells. We have just left Columbus and are on our way to Milwaukee. Running time - according to the time table - is 3 hours from here. It is 6:30ish Central time.


----------



## amamba

Well I know you are all sitting here on the edges of your seats. We got a customer service agent in board between Columbus and Milwaukee. They have been putting folks from the 30 onto tonight's 48 and they assured me I would make tonight's LSL. We are supposed to wait on the platform when we detain for directions. Others that are in te sleepers and had tickets for yesterday's LSL were told to just go to the train without being reticketed.


----------



## PRR 60

Texas Sunset said:


> The Chief said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't wait until they finally open up Yucca Mountain and spend the next few decades transporting the world's largest stockpile of nuclear waste by truck and train to its next temporary resting area. ,,,
> 
> 
> 
> Wondering WT_ this has to do with the ^ *Empire Builder*_ Lateness Problems This Summer_ ^ thread? Seems to be _way_ off topic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Speaking of lateness, did you really want to me to comment further on that old post, or are you just posting to remind us that you forgot to whine about it two days ago? :wacko:
Click to expand...

I think he was posting to point out that you once again injected an off-topic political agenda into a discussion. Of course, your reply is just another personal insult, but is too is pretty much par for the course. It's gets pretty tiresome.


----------



## Ryan

Ok maybe perhaps it was relevant to the discussion on freight derailments that was ongoing in one of the many threads that were merged into this one mega thread.

Just a thought...

What exactly is political about hauling radioactive waste by rail?

Edit:

Here's the original context of his remarks:



Texas Sunset said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rumor on the train is that a bunch of the cars that detailed had hazardous materials in them. Don't know how accurate that is. Thanks for the link to the Billings Gazette.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't wait until they finally open up Yucca Mountain and spend the next few decades transporting the world's largest stockpile of nuclear waste by truck and train to its next temporary resting area. We might be OK with one derailment. Maybe even two or three. But eventually some structural or manufacturing anomaly is going to give and it when it does it certainly won't be pretty. Just imagine how long the tracks will be unusable after that. Months? Years? Decades? Who knows.
Click to expand...

Looks pretty well on topic to me. Sorry that offended some people's delicate sensibilities.


----------



## amamba

It's 9 pm and we just stopped in Glenview. I just hope it isnt a cluster in CHI trying to get to the LSL. Has anyone had experience with running to a train like this? They said not to go into the station.


----------



## Ispolkom

Ryan said:


> Ok maybe perhaps it was relevant to the discussion on freight derailments that was ongoing in one of the many threads that were merged into this one mega thread.
> 
> Just a thought...
> 
> What exactly is political about hauling radioactive waste by rail?


And let's face it, over the last couple of years, a massive spill of radioactive materials is about the only trial the Empire Builder hasn't faced.


----------



## PRR 60

Ryan said:


> Ok maybe perhaps it was relevant to the discussion on freight derailments that was ongoing in one of the many threads that were merged into this one mega thread.
> 
> Just a thought...
> 
> What exactly is political about hauling radioactive waste by rail?
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Here's the original context of his remarks:
> 
> 
> 
> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rumor on the train is that a bunch of the cars that detailed had hazardous materials in them. Don't know how accurate that is. Thanks for the link to the Billings Gazette.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't wait until they finally open up Yucca Mountain and spend the next few decades transporting the world's largest stockpile of nuclear waste by truck and train to its next temporary resting area. We might be OK with one derailment. Maybe even two or three. But eventually some structural or manufacturing anomaly is going to give and it when it does it certainly won't be pretty. Just imagine how long the tracks will be unusable after that. Months? Years? Decades? Who knows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looks pretty well on topic to me. Sorry that offended some people's delicate sensibilities.
Click to expand...

My point, that you apparently missed, was that he replied to a member who questioned his post by insulting him. Not by explaining his position and how he thought it was relevant to the topic, but by throwing out a personal insult - period. Maybe that does not offend your sensibilities, but it does mine.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

amamba said:


> It's 9 pm and we just stopped in Glenview. I just hope it isnt a cluster in CHI trying to get to the LSL. Has anyone had experience with running to a train like this? They said not to go into the station.


Not there so this just me thinking out. There going to grab you and have you walk on the platform pass the 1st class lounge on to the platform where the Lake Shore Limited is, and board. I think the coach pax will not be allow to get on into after you do. I am concern about your comment on have the pax that miss the train to go there with out change tickets. Might have a extra coach, but not a extra sleep. People are going to be tired and short fused.

Be sure to stand your ground and get your sleeping room. Be firm, but nice.


----------



## Ispolkom

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Be sure to stand your ground and get your sleeping room. Be firm, but nice polite.


A slight edit there. A nice person would give up her sleeping accommodation to someone else.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Don't forget today's arrival of the Empire Builder is due at 0300 hrs tomorrow. So cluster yes, but something that can be managed.

Everything's going to work out.


----------



## Steve4031

They might pull through and let you off on track 28. The lsl would be on track 26. I think this would work if the lsl can leave from track 26.


----------



## saxman

Well at least the following day's train #8 didn't pass up the 29 hour late #8. :lol:


----------



## PRR 60

saxman said:


> Well at least the following day's train #8 didn't pass up the 29 hour late #8. :lol:


I think that nearly happened once with the CZ. They basically came in to CHI together.


----------



## amamba

Well I am in the met lounge and they are not yet boarding the LsL. I don't think I will feel comfortable until I actually board 448 but the lounge attendants said no one has boarded yet.


----------



## amamba

I was actually ticketed for today's train so I don't envision a problem with my room. The folks in the bedroom next to me On the 8 are trying to get a sleeper on today's train up at the metro lounge counter.


----------



## Ispolkom

amamba said:


> I was actually ticketed for today's train so I don't envision a problem with my room. counter.


Say, shouldn't you be boarding?

EDITED TO ADD: Not that I'm waiting on the call, or anything.


----------



## amamba

Well folks it is 11:15 Chicago time and I am on the lsL. We are still in CHI! I did enjoy the wine and cheese party in the diner.


----------



## amamba

We just pulled out at 11:20 pm!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

amamba said:


> I was actually ticketed for today's train so I don't envision a problem with my room. The folks in the bedroom next to me On the 8 are trying to get a sleeper on today's train up at the metro lounge counter.


Good thing you left plenty of just barely enough padding. Too bad you couldn't spend any time enjoying Chicago, which just happens to be one of my favorite cities in the world. In fact I was visiting Chicago just last week after snagging a last second flight for a couple days of goofing around. I had a couple friends who were bummed we couldn't stay any longer due to previous engagements, but as I told them then "There's always next time!" Although I don't think anyone would hold it against you if next time was a ways off yet.



amamba said:


> We just pulled out at 11:20 pm!


Better late than never! -_-



PRR 60 said:


> I think he was posting to point out that you once again injected an off-topic political agenda into a discussion. Of course, your reply is just another personal insult, but is too is pretty much par for the course. It's gets pretty tiresome.


You now have a PM with everything I have to say on the matter. If you wish to discuss this any further please reply there instead of here. Thanks. :mellow:


----------



## CHamilton

amamba said:


> We just pulled out at 11:20 pm!


That sound you heard is a bunch of us breathing a sigh of relief! Hope you can relax tonight and enjoy the remainder of your trip.


----------



## Steve4031

Things for keeping us posted. Hope the lsl gets you gone in a positive state of mind.


----------



## amamba

I'm in a great state of mind- my EB SCA gave me four little splits of champagne and I did the wine and cheese tasting. I am going to sleep slightly drunk and lulled to sleep with the rocking of the rails.


----------



## NW cannonball

amamba said:


> We just pulled out at 11:20 pm!


Hope it gets better from now eastward. And that you get a good night's sleep on the LSL.

"hard travels make good stories" -- If you have the time and the inclination your adventure might make a good trip report -- sort of a "good, bad, ugly" about what went wrong and Amtraks successful and unsuccessful efforts to ameliorate the problems. And passenger reactions and all.

Hoping future travels less stressful. And that whatever support you got here helped at least some.


----------



## NW cannonball

The EB problems continue --

I observed the #8(17) -- probably? started on 7/17 at SEA-PDX - whatever from the footbridge over the tracks near Dinkytown MSP arriving about 14 hours late -- and saw it again at downtown Saint Paul about 22:00 still 14 hours late. Lost a few minutes in the station. It will (or maybe has already) met the #7(19) which is about 3 hours late on the River SOO (CP) between Winona and Red Wing - an unusual meeting place for these trains - the River SOO is mostly single track from Winona to MSP - there are half a dozen passing sidings but expect more delays for both trains.

AND -- the eastbound #8 and #28 departing west coast 7/19 are already listed as "Service Disruptions"

John Bobinyec's site that summarizes Amtrak data seems overwhelmed by the confusion - I've learned to rely on http://www.dixielandsoftware.com/ in conjunction with Amtrak.com and Julie -- but I'm not going to bother Julie now just to satisfy my curiousity - and John's site is overwhelmed by the out-of-specs data from AMTK

I think I'll stay awake an other hour or two and hope to see #7 departing MSP - it was reported 3:24 late at RDW and expected 3:07 late at MSP - add another 45 minutes - I may see it at 02:0something.

Only two years ago before the first Nodak floods - the EB was reasonably on time almost always -- the SOO (CP) and BNSF did a real good job overall.

Since then the EB has gone from good on-time performance to so-so - to the last month or two - worse that than the Starlate or the UP. The Starlate has actually gotten a lot better over the last 2 years.

My last MSP-SEA trip was November 2011 - mostly uneventful - one emergency stop westbound in Rockies - decoupled brake hose - an hour delay at SPK - gave our engines the to eastbound and borrowed a BNSF engine west from Spokane less then 30 minutes late into Everett - where my daughter worried for a few minutes that we were a freight - no problems - minimal delays. The return trip in coach was minimally marred by 3 20-somethings that were trying to hold 8 seats for the 3 of them -- I just turned on my "I am a senile person and I know the rules and here is an empty seat" persona. And I hid my s****s when they got cut off from the booze before Whitefish. But yeah - like someone somewhere here said the Williston Basin place is a typical boomtown now.

Summary -- don't know about the landslides east of Spokane - there is trackwork MSP-MWK - derailments on the high-line -- seems like more than normal --

overall -- a really bad few months for the Builder --

Some of these problems are short-term - some are just accidents - the sum total is -- horrible performance.

It will take more than one simple program to fix this -- this is worse than I, a long-time EB user have ever seen.

By "long-time" I mean that the *latest* EB I ever rode was back in 1968 before AMTRAK - the Fargo - SCD line had a derailment - my parents drove me to Wahpeton ND (25 miles) where I caught the eastbound Builder 1:20 late out of blizzard on the border. Arrived Saint Paul only 15 minutes late -- even with the schedule padding - we made up time -- the phone posts looked like a picket fence -- this was before the 79mph rule - and everything ahead of us took siding - green lights all the way at 95mph. Won't happen now.

Oh, and me observing MSP Robert Street Bridge -- heard something like - "notquote not heard" 3 juveniles caucasians sitting in the gauge blue shorts white tops air horn and minimal brake and they cleared r/w - "notquote"

So - kudos to the EB crew both ops and OBS and pax -- this last month seems like something worse that what you ever imagined. Hoping the service reverts to the mean which is/was much much better than the last few months.


----------



## NW cannonball

I am reporting this by personal observation because the AMTRAK site and Julie and John seem overwhelmed.

Amtrak 7 departed MSP 02:38 -- heard the two toots from the station a mile east from here and then heard the main-track switch go "clonck" to let AMTK 7 on to the main. Three and a half hours late.

Posted something about the EB that passed thru here a few hours ago already - only 14 hours late.

Repeat -- the eastbound Builder of 07/19 is already off the maps reported as "Service Disruption"

Really hard to plan a trip -- worst I've ever seen her in MSP


----------



## Ryan

PRR 60 said:


> I think he was posting to point out that you once again injected an off-topic political agenda into a discussion.





PRR 60 said:


> My point, that you apparently missed, was that he replied to a member who questioned his post by insulting him. Not by explaining his position and how he thought it was relevant to the topic, but by throwing out a personal insult - period. Maybe that does not offend your sensibilities, but it does mine.


I was addressing that part of your comments. If that wasn't the point you were trying to make, you should have left it off since his comments were neither off-topic nor political.

Amamba, glad to hear that things worked out for you (mostly). Hopefully the EB can get back on track now (no pun intended).


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

From looking at the status maps the whole system is just a mess, a sea of red and yellow.


----------



## yarrow

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> From looking at the status maps the whole system is just a mess, a sea of red and yellow.


i doubt they would do it during the height of travel season and i doubt it would help long term but i recall times when they have cancelled eb departures for a day to get equipment back on time.


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

yarrow said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> From looking at the status maps the whole system is just a mess, a sea of red and yellow.
> 
> 
> 
> i doubt they would do it during the height of travel season and i doubt it would help long term but i recall times when they have cancelled eb departures for a day to get equipment back on time.
Click to expand...

Todays 7 left Chicago on time, and has been losing time ever since Milwaukee its almost an hour late thus far. Yesterday left Chicago only 39 minutes late and has continually bled time ever since. Actually both train 7 and 8 has been able to leave their origins mostly on time over the last couple of days but still bleeds time after that.

In fact it seems most of the western trains are able to leave their origins on time but just bleed time after that. There was talk of heat causing problems, looking at national temperatures they seem to have leveled off around 85 to 90. I understand there are a number of track projects going on (I know there is one that is affecting the starlight but that ends August 1st) so that another issue and the clean up from the storms in the east.


----------



## Russell

Hey there everyone, am sitting at King street station in Seattle, 8(20) was supposed to leave at 4:40, now it's not expected to leave until midnight due to a major safety issue with the bolts on one of the cars!!!! Oh well.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Russell said:


> Hey there everyone, am sitting at King street station in Seattle, 8(20) was supposed to leave at 4:40, now it's not expected to leave until midnight due to a major safety issue with the bolts on one of the cars!!!! Oh well.


S**t. EB_OBS, we have heard all about this from your helpful information, but you have never been on one of the affected/mentioned trains. Are you by chance crewing this?


----------



## Phil S

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> From looking at the status maps the whole system is just a mess, a sea of red and yellow.
> 
> 
> 
> i doubt they would do it during the height of travel season and i doubt it would help long term but i recall times when they have cancelled eb departures for a day to get equipment back on time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Todays 7 left Chicago on time, and has been losing time ever since Milwaukee its almost an hour late thus far. Yesterday left Chicago only 39 minutes late and has continually bled time ever since. Actually both train 7 and 8 has been able to leave their origins mostly on time over the last couple of days but still bleeds time after that.
> 
> In fact it seems most of the western trains are able to leave their origins on time but just bleed time after that. There was talk of heat causing problems, looking at national temperatures they seem to have leveled off around 85 to 90. I understand there are a number of track projects going on (I know there is one that is affecting the starlight but that ends August 1st) so that another issue and the clean up from the storms in the east.
Click to expand...


Yup, #7(10) now down almost 7 hours out of Havre -- and it hasn't even gotten to NW Montana which is largely w/o power from today's storms. Though I suppose the storm's effects ripple outward pretty quickly as trains pile up in both directions.

Still, is BNSF just trying to push too much metal in both directions, more than its infrastructure can handle, especially given all the freak weather? I realize there have been serious problems on non-BNSF parts of the EB route but it seems the BNSF high-line is now permanently running at half speed.

Phil


----------



## EB_OBS

johnny.menhennet said:


> Russell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey there everyone, am sitting at King street station in Seattle, 8(20) was supposed to leave at 4:40, now it's not expected to leave until midnight due to a major safety issue with the bolts on one of the cars!!!! Oh well.
> 
> 
> 
> S**t. EB_OBS, we have heard all about this from your helpful information, but you have never been on one of the affected/mentioned trains. Are you by chance crewing this?
Click to expand...

#7 arrived late into Seattle toady and of course mechanical forces found a broken bolster spring on the Dorm-car. There's no protect available and the train is sold-out so it must be fixed. The T&E crew was sent to the hotel. The earliest they can return to duty is 21:40. Mechanical estimated originally six hours to repair the broken bolster spring but it's looking like it'll be done in five. #8 might be ready to depart by 22:30. Hope so.


----------



## EB_OBS

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> From looking at the status maps the whole system is just a mess, a sea of red and yellow.
> 
> 
> 
> i doubt they would do it during the height of travel season and i doubt it would help long term but i recall times when they have cancelled eb departures for a day to get equipment back on time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Todays 7 left Chicago on time, and has been losing time ever since Milwaukee its almost an hour late thus far. Yesterday left Chicago only 39 minutes late and has continually bled time ever since. Actually both train 7 and 8 has been able to leave their origins mostly on time over the last couple of days but still bleeds time after that.
> 
> In fact it seems most of the western trains are able to leave their origins on time but just bleed time after that. There was talk of heat causing problems, looking at national temperatures they seem to have leveled off around 85 to 90. I understand there are a number of track projects going on (I know there is one that is affecting the starlight but that ends August 1st) so that another issue and the clean up from the storms in the east.
Click to expand...

On our orders last night SPK - SBY, the BNSF lowered the heat restriction kick-in from 90 degrees to 85 degrees. Don't know if this is a permanent change though.


----------



## George Harris

NW cannonball said:


> By "long-time" I mean that the *latest* EB I ever rode was back in 1968 before AMTRAK - the Fargo - SCD line had a derailment - my parents drove me to Wahpeton ND (25 miles) where I caught the eastbound Builder 1:20 late out of blizzard on the border. Arrived Saint Paul only 15 minutes late -- even with the schedule padding - we made up time -- the phone posts looked like a picket fence -- this was before the 79mph rule - and everything ahead of us took siding - green lights all the way at 95mph. Won't happen now.


Actually, the 79 mph rule goes back to 1947, However, for many railroads when their premier passenger trains got behind there would frequently be a top to bottom conspiricy of silence when speed limits were exceeded in attempt to get back on time. Of course, back then the engineers and conductors on passenger trains were at the top of their seniority rosters and knew their territories like the back of their hands and were trusted to know exactly where the reasonable limits of comfort and safety were located. The ICC was not in their pockets as long as there were no problems. This situation lasted into the first few years of Amtrak. There were several derailments and other events that led to a tightening up of control and rule enforcement.


----------



## CHamilton

Phil S said:


> Still, is BNSF just trying to push too much metal in both directions, more than its infrastructure can handle, especially given all the freak weather? I realize there have been serious problems on non-BNSF parts of the EB route but it seems the BNSF high-line is now permanently running at half speed.





EB_OBS said:


> #7 arrived late into Seattle toady and of course mechanical forces found a broken bolster spring on the Dorm-car. There's no protect available and the train is sold-out so it must be fixed. The T&E crew was sent to the hotel. The earliest they can return to duty is 21:40. Mechanical estimated originally six hours to repair the broken bolster spring but it's looking like it'll be done in five. #8 might be ready to depart by 22:30. Hope so.


So between weather, trackwork, busy lines, and equipment shortages, we have a mess. Amtrak can't do much about the first three, but here in the NW, there seems to be no extra equipment at all. Remind me again why none of the current equipment purchases include Superliner equipment, or any equipment that we're likely to see out here? Yes, we'll get a couple of Talgo trainsets, but short of permanently ending the EB at SPK and running Talgo equipment instead, that's not going to help.


----------



## Ryan

Because Amyrak is going for a phased replacement plan. Even demand leads to better suppliers and the don't have the money to buy everything at once. The single level sleeping car capacity was worse, and the VL2 gets the oldest cars in the fleet (single level diners and bags) off the roster.


----------



## Trogdor

Ryan said:


> Because Amyrak is going for a phased replacement plan. Even demand leads to better suppliers and the don't have the money to buy everything at once. The single level sleeping car capacity was worse, and the VL2 gets the oldest cars in the fleet (single level diners and bags) off the roster.


Not only that, but Amtrak also has a limited amount of money, especially with Congress not appropriating any actual money for equipment purchases, thus requiring Amtrak to finance these through internal revenues (which, thankfully, have been higher than projected for a while) or through loans.


----------



## RRUserious

Phil S said:


> Yup, #7(10) now down almost 7 hours out of Havre -- and it hasn't even gotten to NW Montana which is largely w/o power from today's storms. Though I suppose the storm's effects ripple outward pretty quickly as trains pile up in both directions.
> 
> Still, is BNSF just trying to push too much metal in both directions, more than its infrastructure can handle, especially given all the freak weather? I realize there have been serious problems on non-BNSF parts of the EB route but it seems the BNSF high-line is now permanently running at half speed.
> 
> Phil


Is BNSF the company that wants to send coal and oil trains to the west coast to export to Asia? Why don't they just tell Amtrak "forget the Empire Builder, we've got the track time totally used". Or they will if all of these plans come to fruition. Especially galling since it seems carbon emissions are causing the whole country to bake and the crops are being incinerated. And they want to facilitate MORE coal and oil combustion?


----------



## Ana

Amamba, SO glad to hear you made it! I just arrived in EMY on the CZ and I thought of you when I saw the EB delays on the CUS departure board. It's been a riveting story to follow. The CZ departed 45 mins late as we were waiting on late connections and there was much moaning about that so I mentioned your train ( even my trip on the EB 8 (7) was over 4 hours late).

And it's been a good reminder to me to pack heaps of food ( I can't eat gluten so their substitute meals wouldn't help me).

I hope you are home by now


----------



## amamba

Ana I am finally home! Thanks for rooting for me.


----------



## Paulus

RRUserious said:


> Phil S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, #7(10) now down almost 7 hours out of Havre -- and it hasn't even gotten to NW Montana which is largely w/o power from today's storms. Though I suppose the storm's effects ripple outward pretty quickly as trains pile up in both directions.
> 
> Still, is BNSF just trying to push too much metal in both directions, more than its infrastructure can handle, especially given all the freak weather? I realize there have been serious problems on non-BNSF parts of the EB route but it seems the BNSF high-line is now permanently running at half speed.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> 
> Is BNSF the company that wants to send coal and oil trains to the west coast to export to Asia? Why don't they just tell Amtrak "forget the Empire Builder, we've got the track time totally used". Or they will if all of these plans come to fruition. Especially galling since it seems carbon emissions are causing the whole country to bake and the crops are being incinerated. And they want to facilitate MORE coal and oil combustion?
Click to expand...


BNSF's looked at it in the past, but it doesn't look like they'll actually do it based on how the mines and tracks are set up. Any exports will likely go down to the Gulf and out through the Canal, taking advantage of the widening. Bear in mind that coal traffic has also been down significantly this past year, double digit drops in car traffic if memory serves, so if anything, BNSF probably has less freight traffic on the EB's route this year than last (though I wouldn't know that for certain, that's simply a guess).


----------



## Ispolkom

Paulus said:


> BNSF probably has less freight traffic on the EB's route this year than last (though I wouldn't know that for certain, that's simply a guess).


You're mistaken. Between frack sand and chemicals heading west and unit trains of oil heading east, the Hi Line is probably pushing more tons than it ever has. There was a _Trains_ article a couple of months ago that gave a few statistics, but what I remember was that the local peddler west of Minot, ND, could take 3 days to make it back 90 miles.


----------



## NW cannonball

Ispolkom said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> BNSF probably has less freight traffic on the EB's route this year than last (though I wouldn't know that for certain, that's simply a guess).
> 
> 
> 
> You're mistaken. Between frack sand and chemicals heading west and unit trains of oil heading east, the Hi Line is probably pushing more tons than it ever has. There was a _Trains_ article a couple of months ago that gave a few statistics, but what I remember was that the local peddler west of Minot, ND, could take 3 days to make it back 90 miles.
Click to expand...

There's less coal trains here in MSP - but there's still several coal trains every day that deliver to the Sherco plant that is halfway between SCD and MSP.

Here in MSP - I live near the main line - there are several unit trains per day now hauling crude oil somewhere east - I checked the hazmat signs and the trains are labelled "crude oil"

Last November rode the EB to SEA -- there was obvious work on pipeline near Williston but that will be another year or two before the pipeline is competed.

Frack sand -- the local neighborhood paranoids are worrying about the the crude sand gons that accumulate in the local MNNR yard and then ship out to somewhere in Texas a a couple times per week - the sand comes from southern Minnesota and gets refined into "frack sand" down south somewhere - several hundred carloads per week.

Me - I don't worry about the carloads of sand - actually rough-crushed sandstone. But some folks are panicking -- "silica! OMG! inhalation hazard! - sheesh!


----------



## montana mike

The new "normal" for EB arrivals in Chicago this summer appears to be somewhere between 2 1/2 and 4 hours late, with today's EB scheduled to arrive more than 6 hours late. Sort of blows away almost all connection chances in the windy city doesn't it. My BNSF contacts say that the high line issues are a combination of factors-heat, increased rail traffic into and out of the Bakken Field (bringing in everything needed for the field and departing with oil-over 2500 car loads a week according to the energy people in ND), construction and of course track/equipment issues like the massive derailment last week and the car problems in Seattle a few days ago. Just not the EB's summer is it?

:-(


----------



## NY Penn

montana mike said:


> Just not the EB's summer is it?:-(


Seems like it never is...


----------



## yarrow

NY Penn said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just not the EB's summer is it?:-(
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like it never is...
Click to expand...

not to mention the eb's winters


----------



## yarrow

there seems to be no train 8 to arrive in chi today on the amtrak status maps. what happened to it? thanks


----------



## NY Penn

It's estimated to arrive at 9:30PM today; I have no idea why it's not on the status map.


----------



## CHamilton

I spent a couple of hours yesterday watching BNSF's main line from SEA-PDX in Centralia, WA, and I was surprised at the number of trains that went by in a very short time. I saw a couple with brand-new "Auto-Max" car carriers, and at least one being hauled by four UP locos. Is BNSF having to detour some of its freight further south?


----------



## anir dendroica

No BNSF detours that I know of. UP uses that track to serve Seattle (required so that BNSF doesn't have a monopoly on Seattle traffic), so the train with UP engines was most likely a UP train. BNSF also routes some of its Seattle and Tacoma traffic through Portland and Pasco rather than Everett and the Cascade Tunnel. Likely due to capacity constraints, fuel savings (no grades to speak of on the Gorge route), and the desire to route manifest traffic through the large classification yard at Pasco.

Mark



CHamilton said:


> I spent a couple of hours yesterday watching BNSF's main line from SEA-PDX in Centralia, WA, and I was surprised at the number of trains that went by in a very short time. I saw a couple with brand-new "Auto-Max" car carriers, and at least one being hauled by four UP locos. Is BNSF having to detour some of its freight further south?


----------



## TrainLoverJoy

Bad summer, bad winters......that's why I still have a little bit of hope round trip on EB in the Fall (Sept 22-Oct 2) will be a little better.


----------



## zephyr17

anir dendroica said:


> No BNSF detours that I know of. UP uses that track to serve Seattle (required so that BNSF doesn't have a monopoly on Seattle traffic), so the train with UP engines was most likely a UP train. BNSF also routes some of its Seattle and Tacoma traffic through Portland and Pasco rather than Everett and the Cascade Tunnel. Likely due to capacity constraints, fuel savings (no grades to speak of on the Gorge route), and the desire to route manifest traffic through the large classification yard at Pasco.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> I spent a couple of hours yesterday watching BNSF's main line from SEA-PDX in Centralia, WA, and I was surprised at the number of trains that went by in a very short time. I saw a couple with brand-new "Auto-Max" car carriers, and at least one being hauled by four UP locos. Is BNSF having to detour some of its freight further south?
Click to expand...

UP has trackage rights over BNSF between North Portland Jct just south of the Columbia River and Reservation in Tacoma. UP runs a pretty good amount of freight using those rights. I know BNSF tends to route loaded grain trains via the Gorge at the very least.


----------



## Naismith

Would the Keystone Pipeline, if implemented, significantly reduce the traffic on the rail line used by the EB?


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Naismith said:


> Would the Keystone Pipeline, if implemented, significantly reduce the traffic on the rail line used by the EB?


No. Would not even make that big a dent. North Dakota has a daily average production of close to 600,000 barrels. Keystone in total was going to carry 900,000 per day, almost all from Canada. North Dakota oil was to be allowed 100,000 barrels per day of capacity through that pipeline. So even at current levels, you'd still have 5 of 6 oil trains and with production still ramping up, it would have even less of an effect.


----------



## Ispolkom

TrainLoverJoy said:


> Bad summer, bad winters......that's why I still have a little bit of hope round trip on EB in the Fall (Sept 22-Oct 2) will be a little better.


Then you'll have increased congestion because of the grain harvest.


----------



## anir dendroica

Most of the oil-related traffic is headed east, which is not so bad for the EB as increased westward traffic. From Minot to Fargo the Devils Lake line is operating below capacity with almost all freight (including oil) on the Surrey cutoff track. As the track raise progresses there may be more freight moved over to the route used by Amtrak, but there is capacity there. From Fargo to Minneapolis is almost entirely double track, which can take more trains without gumming up too badly.

Westward from Minot is mostly single track with passing sidings all the way to Sandpoint, ID, with a few stretches of double track over Marias Pass and near Havre. Adding 5-6 daily trains that direction (such as might happen with coal exports) would probably have a major impact on EB performance.

Mark


----------



## yarrow

train 8 that arrives chi today(7/24)lost 3 hours between msp and rdw. anyone know why?


----------



## Jon

yarrow said:


> train 8 that arrives chi today(7/24)lost 3 hours between msp and rdw. anyone know why?


I was on train 8 into Chicago on 7/24/12. About 10 minutes out of MSP we came to a stop and sat without moving for about 2.5 hours. Announcements on board indicated there was a rail break ahead of us and then a freight train broke down and needed some assistance. We were originally told we would need to wait on a BNSF freight train sitting beside us waiting to go, but we were eventually released before them. There were a few other shorter stops and slower speed areas as we worked through the resulting congestion. We were behind coming into MSP due to heat restrictions through eastern Montanna and North Dakota during the afternoon sun. We actually arrived early into one stop in Montana and had to wait until our scheduled departure time--before the heat restrictions.

Jon


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

I'm surprised 7 managed to arrive in Seattle 25 minutes early today, when was the last time we saw that happen?


----------



## Ispolkom

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> I'm surprised 7 managed to arrive in Seattle 25 minutes early today, when was the last time we saw that happen?


A week ago. #7 was 21 minutes early on July 18.


----------



## JayPea

Ispolkom said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised 7 managed to arrive in Seattle 25 minutes early today, when was the last time we saw that happen?
> 
> 
> 
> A week ago. #7 was 21 minutes early on July 18.
Click to expand...


#7 is on quite a roll!!! Today as noted it was 25 minutes early and yesterday it was right on time. Two in a row!


----------



## NY Penn

The surprised cheering when a train is on time is quite depressing, I have to say.


----------



## Phil S

NY Penn said:


> The surprised cheering when a train is on time is quite depressing, I have to say.


Well, if it's any consolation your comment got a good laugh out of me. Thanks!


----------



## montana mike

I just finished a trip on #8 into CHI on 7/24--arrived 5 hours and 26 minutes late! The train is snake bitten. We lost 2 hours due to "heat restrictions" thru MT (temps in the 90's), then the next AM just after MSP we lost another 3 hours as a CP rail train engine broke down, then one of the tracks failed and the resulting mess and congestion took 3 hours to sort out. The rest of the trip was uneventful.

I wonder what happened to #8 today in MT--another 3 hour delay between stations--bummer.

No train is arriving even close to arrival time in CHI anymore.

C'est La Vie'


----------



## EB_OBS

montana mike said:


> I wonder what happened to #8 today in MT--another 3 hour delay between stations--bummer.


Track defects. FRA was on the scene too.


----------



## yarrow

train 8 arrived 46 min early into spokane at 11:59 pm and as of 6:45 am is evidently still sitting in spokane. enquiring minds want to know what happened this time


----------



## NY Penn

Brushfires have caused #28 to become stuck in WA somewhere. Therefore 8 will sit there until 28 arrives.

Which could be a long time.


----------



## yarrow

now scheduled to leave spk at 8 am. also freight congestion probably secondary to the fires as i understand it. poor eb


----------



## NY Penn

8 hours late already? Wow. I'm surprised.

Wait a minute. I'm not.

EDIT: Amtrak expects it to make up 4 hours by the time it arrives in CHI. I highly doubt that.

EDIT2: I noticed that 8(26) and 28(26) have different ETAs in CHI. How's that possible?


----------



## guest

NY Penn said:


> 8 hours late already? Wow. I'm surprised.
> 
> Wait a minute. I'm not.
> 
> EDIT: Amtrak expects it to make up 4 hours by the time it arrives in CHI. I highly doubt that.
> 
> EDIT2: I noticed that 8(26) and 28(26) have different ETAs in CHI. How's that possible?


Hey all the estimates at this point are fantasy times so maybe the Amtrak people decided to have a little fun and play with all our minds?

Faux nee Fox News reports that the Empire Builder Schedule has been nominated for a Best Fiction of 2012 Award!!


----------



## yarrow

and then of course there is (to quote from the yahoo eb group)"impassable track" between havre and malta


----------



## NY Penn

By the time the train gets there, that will be fixed and there will most likely be another derailment somewhere.


----------



## guest

yarrow said:


> and then of course there is (to quote from the yahoo eb group)"impassable track" between havre and malta


That's from The Train of La Mancha: To Dream the Impassable Dream

about a poor little choo-choo fantasizing about being on time!


----------



## amamba

The poor EB this summer! Best wishes to the staff and all the pax on board the delayed trains.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Why does the #8 have such poor luck? It used to have pretty decent OTP. The #7 has a lot less delays and better OTP. Maybe because it reaches the "danger zone" at the end of the trip, where bushfires are raging.


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why does the #8 have such poor luck? It used to have pretty decent OTP. The #7 has a lot less delays and better OTP. Maybe because it reaches the "danger zone" at the end of the trip, where bushfires are raging.


Niether have had much luck over the past few years honestly. Someone on here once said the EB has replaced the CS has the train regarded as always being chronically late.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does the #8 have such poor luck? It used to have pretty decent OTP. The #7 has a lot less delays and better OTP. Maybe because it reaches the "danger zone" at the end of the trip, where bushfires are raging.
> 
> 
> 
> Niether have had much luck over the past few years honestly. Someone on here once said the EB has replaced the CS has the train regarded as always being chronically late.
Click to expand...

I thought that it's the Cardinal and Sunset Limited, replacing the CZ!


----------



## johnny.menhennet

The Card may be consistent in its delays now, but the CS was much much worse, flat out. Routinely arriving LAX at 7 the next morning was normal, and it was the southbound that always had it worse off. It was called Coast Starlate for a reason.


----------



## NY Penn

#8(26) is only 7 hours late departing West Glacier, MT.


----------



## Guest traveler

I have tickets on the Saturday, July 28 EB departing Seattle to North Dakota. I see that The #7 train incoming to Seattle that is scheduled to turn into the #8(28) has been service disrupted. Amtrak customer service is talking about bother 7 and 8 are being turned because they are so late. Does anybody have information on what the effect will be on the 8's Saturdaydeparture from Seattle. To date I have not gotten the dreaded bustitution call but should I be expecting it.

Appreciate the help and information. Very helpful for the occasional Amtrak traveler.


----------



## yarrow

Guest traveler said:


> I have tickets on the Saturday, July 28 EB departing Seattle to North Dakota. I see that The #7 train incoming to Seattle that is scheduled to turn into the #8(28) has been service disrupted. Amtrak customer service is talking about bother 7 and 8 are being turned because they are so late. Does anybody have information on what the effect will be on the 8's Saturdaydeparture from Seattle. To date I have not gotten the dreaded bustitution call but should I be expecting it.
> 
> Appreciate the help and information. Very helpful for the occasional Amtrak traveler.


if 7/27 are too late to get to sea and pdx in time for tomorrow's departure amtrak may turn the train in spokane and bus passengers from sea and pdx to spokane and start the train portion of your trip there. as far as delays between spokane and dakota, who knows? keep checking with amtrak


----------



## yarrow

by the way, 7/27(26) has dropped off the status maps after wtn and is now listed as a service disruption


----------



## yarrow

7/27 has an eta in spk of around 8 am tomorrow. it will be turned there and, i believe, bus provided between spk and sea and pdx


----------



## AlanB

NY Penn said:


> EDIT2: I noticed that 8(26) and 28(26) have different ETAs in CHI. How's that possible?


Because ARROW doesn't understand that they are the same train east of Spokane. It sees them as 2 different trains, which is what is needed in order to prevent ARROW from selling someone a seat or a sleeper in the Portland section when that person wanted to go to Seattle.

So the system at that time was calculating the run time for #8 based upon its early arrival into SPK and the run time for #28 based upon its running late.


----------



## guest

AlanB said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT2: I noticed that 8(26) and 28(26) have different ETAs in CHI. How's that possible?
> 
> 
> 
> Because ARROW doesn't understand that they are the same train east of Spokane. It sees them as 2 different trains, which is what is needed in order to prevent ARROW from selling someone a seat or a sleeper in the Portland section when that person wanted to go to Seattle.
> 
> So the system at that time was calculating the run time for #8 based upon its early arrival into SPK and the run time for #28 based upon its running late.
Click to expand...

Maybe they should rename Arrow HAL? :help:


----------



## EB_OBS

Yes, #7(26) and #27(26) will terminate in SPK. #8/28(28) will originate in SPK with on-time buses departing Seattle and Portland and making stops to SPK.

If all goes as planned then #8(28) will depart SPK on-time at 1:30AM.


----------



## yarrow

ok, maybe i have ocd regarding the eb because we live along its route, maybe it's because we have a mid-september trip connecting to the cl or maybe it is something else. but, what is going on? i look at trains on the eb route today: 7 left chi over 2 hours late, 8 is 3 hours late arriving. 7 and 27 are over 5 hours late and not yet to sea/pdx. yesterday's 8 is 3 hours late and yesterday's 7 (the star of the group)is only an hour and a half late. this is not new. it has been going on at least since may. fires, freight congestion, freight derailmets, broken equipment, crews running out of time and on and on. but the eb schedule still says it will get you there on time. is smilin' joe boardman aware? when is amtrak going to let people know they can't operate this train at anything like its published schedule?


----------



## Mackensen

yarrow said:


> ok, maybe i have ocd regarding the eb because we live along its route, maybe it's because we have a mid-september trip connecting to the cl or maybe it is something else. but, what is going on? i look at trains on the eb route today: 7 left chi over 2 hours late, 8 is 3 hours late arriving. 7 and 27 are over 5 hours late and not yet to sea/pdx. yesterday's 8 is 3 hours late and yesterday's 7 (the star of the group)is only an hour and a half late. this is not new. it has been going on at least since may. fires, freight congestion, freight derailmets, broken equipment, crews running out of time and on and on. but the eb schedule still says it will get you there on time. is smilin' joe boardman aware? when is amtrak going to let people know they can't operate this train at anything like its published schedule?


Probably about the same time BNSF admits it can't safely operate freight trains on the Hi Line. Look back through this thread and it's a catalog of BNSF derailments.


----------



## NY Penn

There hasn't been one in a while now, and OTP is still rather abysmal.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Why is the EB still so late? What's the reason for each delay? If not derailments than what? Can people just start chiming in?


----------



## Mackensen

As I understand it heat-related slow orders remain a problem; in many places speed is restricted to 60 MPH instead of the usual 79 MPH. That's your systemic lateness right there. Beyond that, random bad things still happen. 8(27) lost an hour at Fargo because some moron parked a truck on or near the tracks and it lost an hour which it never got back.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Mackensen said:


> As I understand it heat-related slow orders remain a problem; in many places speed is restricted to 60 MPH instead of the usual 79 MPH. That's your systemic lateness right there. Beyond that, random bad things still happen. 8(27) lost an hour at Fargo because some moron parked a truck on or near the tracks and it lost an hour which it never got back.


Heat restrictions? Weather reports state that the temperatures don't get above 100 degrees F. So why heat restrictions?

Also, heat restrictions don't explain why some trains departed from the origin already late.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it heat-related slow orders remain a problem; in many places speed is restricted to 60 MPH instead of the usual 79 MPH. That's your systemic lateness right there. Beyond that, random bad things still happen. 8(27) lost an hour at Fargo because some moron parked a truck on or near the tracks and it lost an hour which it never got back.
> 
> 
> 
> Heat restrictions? Weather reports state that the temperatures don't get above 100 degrees F. So why heat restrictions?
> 
> Also, heat restrictions don't explain why some trains departed from the origin already late.
Click to expand...

I believe there was a post a few pages back that said the Hi-Line heat restrictions were lowered from the usual 90 degree limit down to 85. So not hitting 100 plays no factor in this. If it even gets to the mid-80's, then we got a problem.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

johnny.menhennet said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it heat-related slow orders remain a problem; in many places speed is restricted to 60 MPH instead of the usual 79 MPH. That's your systemic lateness right there. Beyond that, random bad things still happen. 8(27) lost an hour at Fargo because some moron parked a truck on or near the tracks and it lost an hour which it never got back.
> 
> 
> 
> Heat restrictions? Weather reports state that the temperatures don't get above 100 degrees F. So why heat restrictions?
> 
> Also, heat restrictions don't explain why some trains departed from the origin already late.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe there was a post a few pages back that said the Hi-Line heat restrictions were lowered from the usual 90 degree limit down to 85. So not hitting 100 plays no factor in this. If it even gets to the mid-80's, then we got a problem.
Click to expand...

Then it's going to be really bad for the EB, because Glasgow is still at 93 degrees F! :excl:

Still dosen't explain the origin delays.


----------



## yarrow

Mackensen said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok, maybe i have ocd regarding the eb because we live along its route, maybe it's because we have a mid-september trip connecting to the cl or maybe it is something else. but, what is going on? i look at trains on the eb route today: 7 left chi over 2 hours late, 8 is 3 hours late arriving. 7 and 27 are over 5 hours late and not yet to sea/pdx. yesterday's 8 is 3 hours late and yesterday's 7 (the star of the group)is only an hour and a half late. this is not new. it has been going on at least since may. fires, freight congestion, freight derailmets, broken equipment, crews running out of time and on and on. but the eb schedule still says it will get you there on time. is smilin' joe boardman aware? when is amtrak going to let people know they can't operate this train at anything like its published schedule?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably about the same time BNSF admits it can't safely operate freight trains on the Hi Line. Look back through this thread and it's a catalog of BNSF derailments.
Click to expand...

so, from your reply, bnsf can't safely operate on the hi-line and neither can amtrak?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

yarrow said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok, maybe i have ocd regarding the eb because we live along its route, maybe it's because we have a mid-september trip connecting to the cl or maybe it is something else. but, what is going on? i look at trains on the eb route today: 7 left chi over 2 hours late, 8 is 3 hours late arriving. 7 and 27 are over 5 hours late and not yet to sea/pdx. yesterday's 8 is 3 hours late and yesterday's 7 (the star of the group)is only an hour and a half late. this is not new. it has been going on at least since may. fires, freight congestion, freight derailmets, broken equipment, crews running out of time and on and on. but the eb schedule still says it will get you there on time. is smilin' joe boardman aware? when is amtrak going to let people know they can't operate this train at anything like its published schedule?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably about the same time BNSF admits it can't safely operate freight trains on the Hi Line. Look back through this thread and it's a catalog of BNSF derailments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so, from your reply, bnsf can't safely operate on the hi-line and neither can amtrak?
Click to expand...

I think that what's more important is the cause of the derailments.

edit: Sorry, I meant derailments, not delays.


----------



## Mackensen

Swadian Hardcore said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok, maybe i have ocd regarding the eb because we live along its route, maybe it's because we have a mid-september trip connecting to the cl or maybe it is something else. but, what is going on? i look at trains on the eb route today: 7 left chi over 2 hours late, 8 is 3 hours late arriving. 7 and 27 are over 5 hours late and not yet to sea/pdx. yesterday's 8 is 3 hours late and yesterday's 7 (the star of the group)is only an hour and a half late. this is not new. it has been going on at least since may. fires, freight congestion, freight derailmets, broken equipment, crews running out of time and on and on. but the eb schedule still says it will get you there on time. is smilin' joe boardman aware? when is amtrak going to let people know they can't operate this train at anything like its published schedule?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably about the same time BNSF admits it can't safely operate freight trains on the Hi Line. Look back through this thread and it's a catalog of BNSF derailments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so, from your reply, bnsf can't safely operate on the hi-line and neither can amtrak?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that what's more important is the cause of the delays.
Click to expand...

The heat restrictions explain everything, actually. The equipment set that arrives in Seattle (and Portland) from Chicago has to be turned the same day. There's a finite amount of time to work with. If it arrives late enough on the west coast it won't get turned in time and will leave late. The equipment has to be cleaned and serviced. Amtrak doesn't have an additional equipment set that can layover to obviate that need.


----------



## NY Penn

How about today's 7 that departed CHI 2+ hours late? Or 7(26) that also departed CHI 2+ late?


----------



## Mackensen

NY Penn said:


> How about today's 7 that departed CHI 2+ hours late? Or 7(26) that also departed CHI 2+ late?


I don't know, and on the whole it doesn't much matter, does it? The most important fact here is that no matter what happens in Chicago it's going to be late until these record temperatures subside and BNSF can rescind the slow orders on the Hi Line. The Builder doesn't have a chance if its top speed is reduced by 19 MPH.

Maybe it was an equipment problem. I was delayed once on the Builder out of Chicago by a bad-ordered dining car. That was a two-hour delay. These things do happen, independent of this structural lateness. Maybe someone threw themselves on the tracks in Chicago. Maybe Amtrak's really short on Superliners right now, and had to use the equipment set from the West Coast which arrived late because of the above problem.

Broadly, it doesn't make much sense to me for Amtrak to issue a new timetable based on a situation that's likely to go away on its own. Last year it was floods. This year it's heat. I suppose next year it'll be locusts.


----------



## EB_OBS

Much of the High-line is single track too. Heat restrictions reduce passenger train speed to 60MPH, but it lowers freight trains down to 40MPH.

And, yes, BNSF lowered the usual kick-in for heat restrictions from 90 to 85 degrees. It's 85 degrees or more normally everyday in Montana in July and August, so.

Plus the BNSF track gangs and track supervisors and the FRA are out watching the condition of the track very closely right now.


----------



## George Harris

Mackensen said:


> Last year it was floods. This year it's heat. I suppose next year it'll be locusts.


And then darkness?


----------



## yarrow

Mackensen said:


> The heat restrictions explain everything, actually.


are there no heat restrictions elsewhere in the country where the ld trains are pretty much on time? heat restrictions in past warmer summers have not played havoc with the eb. but my main question is still: why doesn't amtrak let people know that if they are traveling the eb and expect anything like an on-time arrival that they have a problem?


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

yarrow said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The heat restrictions explain everything, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> are there no heat restrictions elsewhere in the country where the ld trains are pretty much on time? heat restrictions in past warmer summers have not played havoc with the eb. but my main question is still: why doesn't amtrak let people know that if they are traveling the eb and expect anything like an on-time arrival that they have a problem?
Click to expand...

Communication with passengers about delays and service disruptions seems to be something Amtrak utterly fails at.


----------



## RRUserious

George Harris said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last year it was floods. This year it's heat. I suppose next year it'll be locusts.
> 
> 
> 
> And then darkness?
Click to expand...



When do the rivers run with blood. And the plague of toads?


----------



## montana mike

Looking at the past week the 3-5 hour arrival delays for the EB in Chicago appear to be the norm now---sadly


----------



## Mackensen

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The heat restrictions explain everything, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> are there no heat restrictions elsewhere in the country where the ld trains are pretty much on time? heat restrictions in past warmer summers have not played havoc with the eb. but my main question is still: why doesn't amtrak let people know that if they are traveling the eb and expect anything like an on-time arrival that they have a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Communication with passengers about delays and service disruptions seems to be something Amtrak utterly fails at.
Click to expand...

Nonsense. I've been contacted by phone every time I've been subject to one.


----------



## PRR 60

I should also add that traffic on the BNSF High Line is as heavy as it has been in many years, and maybe ever. Between the fracking sand heading in and the Bakken oil heading out (and empties the other way), that railroad is choked with trains. That creates congestion on the single-track line, and more trains means there is a greater likelihood that trains will break down. The traffic volume and tonnage also increases the need to do work to repair the heavily used tracks. In some ways the BNSF High Line is like the UP's Sunset Route back in the economic boom times. It is a single-track line operating at or near capacity. That is not a good situation for moving a passenger train on schedule.


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

Mackensen said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The heat restrictions explain everything, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> are there no heat restrictions elsewhere in the country where the ld trains are pretty much on time? heat restrictions in past warmer summers have not played havoc with the eb. but my main question is still: why doesn't amtrak let people know that if they are traveling the eb and expect anything like an on-time arrival that they have a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Communication with passengers about delays and service disruptions seems to be something Amtrak utterly fails at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nonsense. I've been contacted by phone every time I've been subject to one.
Click to expand...

I've always had a hit and miss experience with this.


----------



## yarrow

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The heat restrictions explain everything, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> are there no heat restrictions elsewhere in the country where the ld trains are pretty much on time? heat restrictions in past warmer summers have not played havoc with the eb. but my main question is still: why doesn't amtrak let people know that if they are traveling the eb and expect anything like an on-time arrival that they have a problem?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Communication with passengers about delays and service disruptions seems to be something Amtrak utterly fails at.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nonsense. I've been contacted by phone every time I've been subject to one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've always had a hit and miss experience with this.
Click to expand...

me too. much more miss than hit


----------



## EB_OBS

I'm frequently on conference calls involving extremely late trains, bustitution and other disruptions. Customer Service and the Res center are always on these calls as well. It's not uncommon, especially during peak-season, for there to be many many hundreds of passengers to notify, what Amtrak calls "call-backs." I don't believe any organization could manage this 100% with consistency unless you could absolutely ensure that every single reservation gave Amtrak good and reliable means to contact you.

I'm not making excuses, I for one would love for the general consensus be that "Amtrak does a good job notifying passengers of disruptions". My own experience and observations tell me though that that isn't the case. I'm just saying that I personally do believe that Amtrak does make a good faith effort to contact as many people as possible. I would hope that means every person who've given Amtrak a good phone number and/or email address.

Bear in mind that I'm not involved in operations of trains outside the NW and I'm predominately only concerned with the EB and it's connecting trains and connections. I can't vouch for the other divisions. One would think though, that the process at the corporate level is SOP for a service disruption no matter which train or service it is.

If you are one that is consistently NOT notified of schedule disruptions, the first thing I would do is to ensure that Amtrak has a reliable means of contacting you.


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

_I must admit, this thread has been an interesting read for me as a new Amtrak rider. I have learned things but have questions now as well._

_ _

_I am taking the EB to Chicago where I will be boarding the CONO, seems simple enough. However, from what I am reading there is now an issue as to whether the EB will be in Chicago in time for me to catch the CONO, is this true? Oh, it may help to know that I am taking this trip at the end of October._

_ _

_What happens if the EB is over 4 hours late into Chicago?_

_ _

_Excuse me for possibly hijacking this thread._


----------



## yarrow

WiCruiseDreamer said:


> _I must admit, this thread has been an interesting read for me as a new Amtrak rider. I have learned things but have questions now as well._
> 
> _ _
> 
> _I am taking the EB to Chicago where I will be boarding the CONO, seems simple enough. However, from what I am reading there is now an issue as to whether the EB will be in Chicago in time for me to catch the CONO, is this true? Oh, it may help to know that I am taking this trip at the end of October._
> 
> _ _
> 
> _What happens if the EB is over 4 hours late into Chicago?_
> 
> _ _
> 
> _Excuse me for possibly hijacking this thread._


hopefully by the end of october things (heat restrictions, maybe freight congestion, summer track work) will be better. that being said, the past couple years connections of the eb to trains leaving chicago are not the most reliable. if the eb is within an hour of making the connection to the cono they may hold it for you. amtrak may lodge you in chicago and put you on the next day's train if you miss the connection. it's up to amtrak.


----------



## JayPea

RRUserious said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last year it was floods. This year it's heat. I suppose next year it'll be locusts.
> 
> 
> 
> And then darkness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> When do the rivers run with blood. And the plague of toads?
Click to expand...


I think it's about to the point with the EB that passengers might want to start thinking about putting lamb's blood on all the doorposts of the train. :wacko:


----------



## yarrow

JayPea said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mackensen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last year it was floods. This year it's heat. I suppose next year it'll be locusts.
> 
> 
> 
> And then darkness?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> When do the rivers run with blood. And the plague of toads?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think it's about to the point with the EB that passengers might want to start thinking about putting lamb's blood on all the doorposts of the train. :wacko:
Click to expand...

lamb's blood, huh? if it has a chance of working i'll try it


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

yarrow said:


> WiCruiseDreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> _I must admit, this thread has been an interesting read for me as a new Amtrak rider. I have learned things but have questions now as well._
> 
> _ _
> 
> _I am taking the EB to Chicago where I will be boarding the CONO, seems simple enough. However, from what I am reading there is now an issue as to whether the EB will be in Chicago in time for me to catch the CONO, is this true? Oh, it may help to know that I am taking this trip at the end of October._
> 
> _ _
> 
> _What happens if the EB is over 4 hours late into Chicago?_
> 
> _ _
> 
> _Excuse me for possibly hijacking this thread._
> 
> 
> 
> hopefully by the end of october things (heat restrictions, maybe freight congestion, summer track work) will be better. that being said, the past couple years connections of the eb to trains leaving chicago are not the most reliable. if the eb is within an hour of making the connection to the cono they may hold it for you. amtrak may lodge you in chicago and put you on the next day's train if you miss the connection. it's up to amtrak.
Click to expand...

 

_If they put me on the next day's train, that would not work to make the connection I have in New Orleans. I may have to start thinking of going a day earlier then planned._


----------



## amamba

Are you connecting to a cruise in New Orleans? If so, I would HIGHLY recommend leaving at least one day earlier so that you have a planned overnight in New Orleans. It would be terrible for you to miss your cruise!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Why did BNSF trains get derailed?


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

amamba said:


> Are you connecting to a cruise in New Orleans? If so, I would HIGHLY recommend leaving at least one day earlier so that you have a planned overnight in New Orleans. It would be terrible for you to miss your cruise!


_Yes, I am and I had planned to arrive the day before the cruise, however, if the train is running late and I must stay in Chicago overnight, I would still miss my cruise, thus I may need to plan to arrive in New Orleans 2 nights prior to embarking on the cruise._


----------



## EB_OBS

Chances are extremely good that by October the Empire Builder's On-time-Performance will be much much better. Heat restrictions will be done and thus the resulting freight congestion and train derailments due to heat restrictions will be over.

My suggestion would be to not make any changes to reservations and such, unless it's absolutely necessary to do so very early, and wait 'til mid-late September to gauge the OTP of the Empire Builder into Chicago.


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

EB_OBS said:


> Chances are extremely good that by October the Empire Builder's On-time-Performance will be much much better. Heat restrictions will be done and thus the resulting freight congestion and train derailments due to heat restrictions will be over.
> 
> My suggestion would be to not make any changes to reservations and such, unless it's absolutely necessary to do so very early, and wait 'til mid-late September to gauge the OTP of the Empire Builder into Chicago.


_Thank you for your advice. I will hold off making any changes for now. I will be sure to watch this forum for updates, unless someone can tell me where I can go to see the status of a train._


----------



## yarrow

WiCruiseDreamer said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chances are extremely good that by October the Empire Builder's On-time-Performance will be much much better. Heat restrictions will be done and thus the resulting freight congestion and train derailments due to heat restrictions will be over.
> 
> My suggestion would be to not make any changes to reservations and such, unless it's absolutely necessary to do so very early, and wait 'til mid-late September to gauge the OTP of the Empire Builder into Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> _Thank you for your advice. I will hold off making any changes for now. I will be sure to watch this forum for updates, unless someone can tell me where I can go to see the status of a train._
Click to expand...

amtrak status maps is a great link. as is a site called amtrak delays. google them and follow them. also you can get train status by clicking on that in the amtrak.com site


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

yarrow said:


> WiCruiseDreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chances are extremely good that by October the Empire Builder's On-time-Performance will be much much better. Heat restrictions will be done and thus the resulting freight congestion and train derailments due to heat restrictions will be over.
> 
> My suggestion would be to not make any changes to reservations and such, unless it's absolutely necessary to do so very early, and wait 'til mid-late September to gauge the OTP of the Empire Builder into Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> _Thank you for your advice. I will hold off making any changes for now. I will be sure to watch this forum for updates, unless someone can tell me where I can go to see the status of a train._
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> amtrak status maps is a great link. as is a site called amtrak delays. google them and follow them. also you can get train status by clicking on that in the amtrak.com site
Click to expand...

_Thank you for both of the links, I have them saved and will be monitoring them closely._


----------



## yarrow

yarrow said:


> WiCruiseDreamer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chances are extremely good that by October the Empire Builder's On-time-Performance will be much much better. Heat restrictions will be done and thus the resulting freight congestion and train derailments due to heat restrictions will be over.
> 
> My suggestion would be to not make any changes to reservations and such, unless it's absolutely necessary to do so very early, and wait 'til mid-late September to gauge the OTP of the Empire Builder into Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> _Thank you for your advice. I will hold off making any changes for now. I will be sure to watch this forum for updates, unless someone can tell me where I can go to see the status of a train._
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

i certainly respect EB OBS advice. he actually works on the eb. however, if i had a connecting train i had to make to catch a cruise i would book the extra day in chicago. the problem with waiting to change your reservation is that sleeper space may be sold out or available only at a higher price than your original reservation on the new date. we took the eb to chicago last september. amtrak had a bad summer due to dakota flooding but things were pretty much back on schedule. due to a couple engine failures and problems that caused we were 16 hours late into chicago. you just never know


----------



## Pat Harper

If the EB is so late that several people will miss connections in Seattle, at what point will they bus passengers in order to make those connections? Or will the PAX be given vouchers for travel on a later train? We will be on the EB soon, and have only an hour layover if the EB would be on time, but due to the recent OTP, I seriously doubt we'll get there on time.


----------



## amamba

Pat Harper said:


> If the EB is so late that several people will miss connections in Seattle, at what point will they bus passengers in order to make those connections? Or will the PAX be given vouchers for travel on a later train? We will be on the EB soon, and have only an hour layover if the EB would be on time, but due to the recent OTP, I seriously doubt we'll get there on time.


Hi Pat - I asked about this when I was on the very late EB two weeks ago, and the consensus was that passengers are almost never bussed from the EB to Chicago. I guess the buses aren't faster than the train in this instance because of traffic, congestion, etc.

What train are you trying to connect to?

Again, I can only relate my one personal experience, but we loaded a customer service rep onto our train somewhere before Milwaukee. The customer service rep literally hopped out of a westbound train and jumped onto ours at a grade crossing.

Then they called folks with connections down to the SSL. Those that had tickets for the CL were given hotel vouchers on the actual train. They ended up holding the CONO and the LSL for my train. People that were going to places that are served by both the CL and LSL were mostly reticketed for the LSL.

I don't know what they did for people with non LD connections. I think sometimes they do bus them to their destinations from CHI.


----------



## Ana

Amamba, on my late EB trip recently they bussed people to Illinois destinations (I'm not familiar with the train numbers but there seemed to be a bunch of shorter trips), held the CONO and CL people got hotels.

I think Pat Harper is going the other way? Pat, I think there are a fair few connections north from Seattle, if that's what you are doing. We were an hour late into Seattle on the CS and they were holding the bus for Vancouver people. Also the situation going into Seattle might be different than going into Chicago, what with the mountains. They bus EB people from the CS at Klamath falls if they'll be late into Portland. Though an hour seems tight for the best of times and this summer sure isn't the best of times for the poor EB...


----------



## Ispolkom

JayPea said:


> I think it's about to the point with the EB that passengers might want to start thinking about putting lamb's blood on all the doorposts of the train. :wacko:


Not me. I'm old school. Since I ride the Empire Builder regularly, I've made an brazen idol of Rocky, the Great Northern's iconic mountain goat. I plan to sacrifice to it before every trip. I'll get back to you on the results.



> Why did BNSF trains get derailed?


Rocky's mad.


----------



## yarrow

Ispolkom said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's about to the point with the EB that passengers might want to start thinking about putting lamb's blood on all the doorposts of the train. :wacko:
> 
> 
> 
> Not me. I'm old school. Since I ride the Empire Builder regularly, I've made an brazen idol of Rocky, the Great Northern's iconic mountain goat. I plan to sacrifice to it before every trip. I'll get back to you on the results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why did BNSF trains get derailed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Rocky's mad.
Click to expand...

amtrak also needs to put that glaring picture of jj hill back in the dining car. i believe it was retained for a brief while in the amtrak era. anyway, james j would whip things into shape


----------



## JayPea

You guys have it nailed. Between Rocky and James J. Hill, things would be back to normal in no time.


----------



## Pat Harper

amamba said:


> What train are you trying to connect to?


We'll be connecting to the Cascades in Seattle, that is if the EB is on time or less than an hour late.

Another thought I had is that if it is late getting to Seattle, would they allow us to continue on to Portland, which is where we would have to board the EB again to return to Chicago?


----------



## Trogdor

Pat Harper said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> What train are you trying to connect to?
> 
> 
> 
> We'll be connecting to the Cascades in Seattle, that is if the EB is on time or less than an hour late.
> 
> Another thought I had is that if it is late getting to Seattle, would they allow us to continue on to Portland, which is where we would have to board the EB again to return to Chicago?
Click to expand...

So, your reservation is, on a same-day trip, taking train 7 to SEA, 513 to PDX, and 28 back from PDX? That seems a little risky, just because there really is no backup.


----------



## fairviewroad

Trogdor said:


> Pat Harper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> What train are you trying to connect to?
> 
> 
> 
> We'll be connecting to the Cascades in Seattle, that is if the EB is on time or less than an hour late.
> 
> Another thought I had is that if it is late getting to Seattle, would they allow us to continue on to Portland, which is where we would have to board the EB again to return to Chicago?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, your reservation is, on a same-day trip, taking train 7 to SEA, 513 to PDX, and 28 back from PDX? That seems a little risky, just because there really is no backup.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the back-up in this case would be to hop off the EB in Spokane and wait for the e/b train the next day. :blink:

However, assuming you are not making the same-day turnaround, if you arrive in SEA too late to catch the 513, they will simply put you on the 507 (or the 509 if you're _really _late). That's

what happened to our family in early July...the 7 was 3 hrs late into SEA so we missed the 513, but we were switched over to the 507. The downside is that BC was sold out on the 507

so we got downgraded to coach, but an alert conductor moved us back up to BC after Kelso when space was available. So it wasn't the end of the world (the agent in Seattle gave

us our BC cafe coupons, so we didn't miss that perk.)

Bottom line, I wouldn't sweat it since you are blessed with having multiple later-in-the-day options, unlike some people making connections in CHI to other LD trains.


----------



## amamba

Sorry on my reading comprehension fail about Pat going to SEA. Whoops.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ispolkom said:


> Why did BNSF trains get derailed?
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky's mad.
Click to expand...

Who's Rocky? I know James Jerome Hill, but I don't know Rocky.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why did BNSF trains get derailed?
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky's mad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's Rocky? I know James Jerome Hill, but I don't know Rocky.
Click to expand...

Did you not read the thread? See this post: Ispolkom, on 01 August 2012 - 10:04 AM


----------



## JayPea

AmtrakBlue said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why did BNSF trains get derailed?
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky's mad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's Rocky? I know James Jerome Hill, but I don't know Rocky.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you not read the thread? See this post: Ispolkom, on 01 August 2012 - 10:04 AM
Click to expand...


In case it isn't clear by now, take a look at Yarrow's avatar.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

AmtrakBlue said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why did BNSF trains get derailed?
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky's mad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's Rocky? I know James Jerome Hill, but I don't know Rocky.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you not read the thread? See this post: Ispolkom, on 01 August 2012 - 10:04 AM
Click to expand...

So the mountain goat's mad. Seriously? Why are BNSF trains getting derailed?


----------



## Ryan

Because Rocky's mad!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ryan said:


> Because Rocky's mad!


Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?

How do the trains get derailed? :help:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Rocky's mad!
> 
> 
> 
> Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?
> 
> How do the trains get derailed? :help:
Click to expand...

Um? Bent/broken tracks? Debris on tracks? Cars/trucks/people on tracks? Some possible reasons, I presume.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Rocky's mad!
> 
> 
> 
> Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?
> 
> How do the trains get derailed? :help:
Click to expand...

Rocky tells them to derail.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

johnny.menhennet said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Rocky's mad!
> 
> 
> 
> Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?
> 
> How do the trains get derailed? :help:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Rocky tells them to derail.
Click to expand...

Or headbutts them. :giggle:


----------



## fairviewroad

Well, as a place to go for actual information and updates about the EB's lateness problems this summer,

this thread has become pretty much useless.


----------



## Ispolkom

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why did BNSF trains get derailed?
> 
> 
> 
> Rocky's mad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who's Rocky? I know James Jerome Hill, but I don't know Rocky.
Click to expand...

Look upon him, and despair!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hunter1828/2418177402/



fairviewroad said:


> Well, as a place to go for actual information and updates about the EB's lateness problems this summer,this thread has become pretty much useless.


Unbeliever!


----------



## johnny.menhennet

AmtrakBlue said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Rocky's mad!
> 
> 
> 
> Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?
> 
> How do the trains get derailed? :help:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Rocky tells them to derail.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or headbutts them. :giggle:
Click to expand...

Good one


----------



## johnny.menhennet

fairviewroad said:


> Well, as a place to go for actual information and updates about the EB's lateness problems this summer,
> 
> this thread has become pretty much useless.


I beg to differ. Rocky is critical to understanding the history of the EB, and the first letters of the thread are EB.


----------



## yarrow

fairviewroad said:


> Well, as a place to go for actual information and updates about the EB's lateness problems this summer,
> 
> this thread has become pretty much useless.


just like the eb itself


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

AmtrakBlue said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Rocky's mad!
> 
> 
> 
> Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?
> 
> How do the trains get derailed? :help:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Um? Bent/broken tracks? Debris on tracks? Cars/trucks/people on tracks? Some possible reasons, I presume.
Click to expand...

If the tracks are bent, they are probably caused by high heat, so the heat restrictions are not without reason. Debris mght be caused by falling rock or trees. Accidents remain a big problem, don't know how to solve it.

Derailments happen so often with freight trains that something seems very wrong with them.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Rocky's mad!
> 
> 
> 
> Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?
> 
> How do the trains get derailed? :help:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Um? Bent/broken tracks? Debris on tracks? Cars/trucks/people on tracks? Some possible reasons, I presume.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the tracks are bent, they are probably caused by high heat, so the heat restrictions are not without reason. Debris mght be caused by falling rock or trees. Accidents remain a big problem, don't know how to solve it.
Click to expand...

I want to make more Rocky jokes, and I have a few clever ones to add to this, but I feel that they would outlast their welcome. There is not much more we can do to a situation like this. ^^^


----------



## anir dendroica

If you look at the pattern of freight derailments in eastern Montana in recent years, they tend to happen November-February or June-August. Thus extreme cold or extreme heat.

In the mountains there can be washouts, rockslides, avalanches, etc. leading to derailments, but in the plains there are mainly just collisions (very uncommon) and track defects.

Eastern Montana has some of the widest temperature swings in the US, from around -40F (and rail temperature close to that) in the winter to over 100F (and rail temperature around 140F) in the summer. That is really testing the limits of expansion and contraction of continuous welded rail. In winter the rails are in extreme tension and can pull apart. In summer they are in compression and can kink. Both can occur as a train is passing over (due to added stress and vibration), meaning that more inspections won't necessarily solve the problem. The (somewhat) good news for passenger trains is that their lighter weight and shorter length make them less likely to trigger these defects.

For those asking why trains in the desert Southwest don't have heat restrictions: Since the coldest temperature expected is around 10-20F, rail can be laid at a higher temperature and therefore experiences less compression at 100 degrees than rail in Montana. Temperature (at least within the range experienced on Earth) has almost no effect on the strength of steel. It's the seasonal change in temperatures that matters.


----------



## Trogdor

Swadian Hardcore said:


> If the tracks are bent, they are probably caused by high heat, so the heat restrictions are not without reason. Debris mght be caused by falling rock or trees. Accidents remain a big problem, don't know how to solve it.
> 
> Derailments happen so often with freight trains that something seems very wrong with them.


Dude, you should totally join the NTSB.


----------



## EB_OBS

Well it's been mudslides, landslides, fires, derailments, floods, heat restrictions, track work and track closures, broken down freight trains, cars on track, grade-crossing strikes, high winds, suicidal trespassers and trespasser strikes, broken bolster springs and B/O diner cars, now there was the Grizzly bear in Shelby, MT that caused a delay to #7 and now the Empire Builder itself has derailed both locomotives in the Seattle yard.

What could be next?


----------



## JayPea

EB_OBS said:


> Well it's been mudslides, landslides, fires, derailments, floods, heat restrictions, track work and track closures, broken down freight trains, cars on track, grade-crossing strikes, high winds, suicidal trespassers and trespasser strikes, broken bolster springs and B/O diner cars, now there was the Grizzly bear in Shelby, MT that caused a delay to #7 and now the Empire Builder itself has derailed both locomotives in the Seattle yard.
> 
> What could be next?



Don't ask! :blink: :wacko: h34r:


----------



## montana mike

OK--some up to date info on the westbound EB, now in Havre--3 1/2 hours late-again!! Why are we late today--an all of the above answer. We left Chicago 40 minutes late to accommodate late arriving passengers, then got stuck behind commuter trains for another hour-going about 30 mph until halfway to Milwaukee. Lost additional time in MSP due to some minor mechanical issues, then really lost tons of time from east of Williston to Havre due to heavy freight traffic and that now infamous "heat restrictions"--even though it was raining part of the way and the temps were in the 80's-which is actually slightly below normal for this area. Using my GPS we have averaged less than 40 mph the entire PM today-bummer


----------



## montana mike

Hopefully my final EB status update before we arrive in Whitefish Just departing Shelby, now 4 1/2 hours late and between Havre and Shelby we never got above 60 mph, despite temps in the low 70's. This has been a frustrating trip.

:-(


----------



## Ana

EB_OBS said:


> Well it's been mudslides, landslides, fires, derailments, floods, heat restrictions, track work and track closures, broken down freight trains, cars on track, grade-crossing strikes, high winds, suicidal trespassers and trespasser strikes, broken bolster springs and B/O diner cars, now there was the Grizzly bear in Shelby, MT that caused a delay to #7 and now the Empire Builder itself has derailed both locomotives in the Seattle yard.
> 
> What could be next?


I missed the grizzly bear story! What happened? Apologies if I've missed it here but I thought I'd read the whole thread.


----------



## EB_OBS

Ana said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well it's been mudslides, landslides, fires, derailments, floods, heat restrictions, track work and track closures, broken down freight trains, cars on track, grade-crossing strikes, high winds, suicidal trespassers and trespasser strikes, broken bolster springs and B/O diner cars, now there was the Grizzly bear in Shelby, MT that caused a delay to #7 and now the Empire Builder itself has derailed both locomotives in the Seattle yard.
> 
> What could be next?
> 
> 
> 
> I missed the grizzly bear story! What happened? Apologies if I've missed it here but I thought I'd read the whole thread.
Click to expand...


Yeah it's not in the thread. I guess nobody else picked up on the story. Train 7 a couple days back was further delayed attempting to depart from Shelby, MT because of police activity. Turns out a Grizzly bear made it into town and the search area was west of the station and covered the BNSF yard there and the mainline. He caused another 40 minutes delay to an already 2 1/2 hours late train.


----------



## EB_OBS

Just a heads up, today's train #8, has now turned into bustitution to SPK, with the already busing #28 from PDX. Unfortunately the equipment it stuck in the yard due to both locomotives derailed and the cars are behind the locos on the pit tracks which are stubb tracks. They don't go thru so even replacing the locos is impossible.

Train 7(31) will now have to be bused and serviced and flipped back east as 8/28(01).


----------



## EB_OBS

Montana Mike,

have you guys all already heard that the train you are on is terminating in SPK?


----------



## lyke99

I am currently on the 7/31 number 27 (PDX) sleeper. We were informed of the bus substitution about 30 minutes ago. We are currently just east of East Glacier.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because Rocky's mad!
> 
> 
> 
> Could you guys quit joking with me? How does Rocky been mad derail a train?
> 
> How do the trains get derailed? :help:
Click to expand...

Chuck Norris was crossing the tracks


----------



## CHamilton

EB_OBS said:


> Just a heads up, today's train #8, has now turned into bustitution to SPK, with the already busing #28 from PDX. Unfortunately the equipment it stuck in the yard due to both locomotives derailed and the cars are behind the locos on the pit tracks which are stubb tracks. They don't go thru so even replacing the locos is impossible.
> 
> Train 7(31) will now have to be bused and serviced and flipped back east as 8/28(01).


EB_OBS, so does this mean that the equipment you're talking about might turn into 8(02) tomorrow (Thursday), assuming they can get it fixed? I have friends who are scheduled to leave from SEA tomorrow, returning home to MSP.


----------



## Ana

EB_OBS said:


> Ana said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well it's been mudslides, landslides, fires, derailments, floods, heat restrictions, track work and track closures, broken down freight trains, cars on track, grade-crossing strikes, high winds, suicidal trespassers and trespasser strikes, broken bolster springs and B/O diner cars, now there was the Grizzly bear in Shelby, MT that caused a delay to #7 and now the Empire Builder itself has derailed both locomotives in the Seattle yard.
> 
> What could be next?
> 
> 
> 
> I missed the grizzly bear story! What happened? Apologies if I've missed it here but I thought I'd read the whole thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah it's not in the thread. I guess nobody else picked up on the story. Train 7 a couple days back was further delayed attempting to depart from Shelby, MT because of police activity. Turns out a Grizzly bear made it into town and the search area was west of the station and covered the BNSF yard there and the mainline. He caused another 40 minutes delay to an already 2 1/2 hours late train.
Click to expand...

Thanks for getting back to me so quick, I'd been googling without much success! Shame about the delay but the reason is pretty awesome. I confess to spending a lot of time staring at the forest in the hope of seeing a bear. I've zero desire to meet one in the woods, but I'd feel brave if I were on a train.


----------



## EB_OBS

CHamilton said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a heads up, today's train #8, has now turned into bustitution to SPK, with the already busing #28 from PDX. Unfortunately the equipment it stuck in the yard due to both locomotives derailed and the cars are behind the locos on the pit tracks which are stubb tracks. They don't go thru so even replacing the locos is impossible.
> 
> Train 7(31) will now have to be bused and serviced and flipped back east as 8/28(01).
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS, so does this mean that the equipment you're talking about might turn into 8(02) tomorrow (Thursday), assuming they can get it fixed? I have friends who are scheduled to leave from SEA tomorrow, returning home to MSP.
Click to expand...

Yes the intent is to now use that equipment as 8/28(02). I just got word the engines had been rerailed at 12:05am.


----------



## montana mike

Yup--They announced the entire situation around East Glacier and told the SEA and PDX passengers what to expect. I arrived in WFH about 4 hours late.



EB_OBS said:


> Montana Mike,
> 
> have you guys all already heard that the train you are on is terminating in SPK?


----------



## fairviewroad

Hey, um, don't know if anyone knows about this, but apparently the Empire Builder is having some problems this summer. I just

learned about it on the Amtrak website. Fortunately, things will be cleared up by August 30! :giggle:



> *Empire Builder Trains 7, 27 and 807 and Trains 8, 28 and 808: Significant Delays Along the Route*
> 
> *Effective through August 30, 2012*
> 
> Passengers traveling aboard the Empire Builder may experience delays of approximately two to five hours due to track work, speed restrictions caused by extreme heat conditions and other operating conditions along the route.
> 
> Passengers should plan for the possibility of a delay and contact Amtrak before heading to the station. The most up-to-date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free iPhone app and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience.


----------



## RRUserious

A little more CANDID would be that if you don't have the app, prepare to be on hold at USA-RAIL. Till the busy summer season is over, they are queued up. They try to make it all seem so simple, but when you try to follow any instructions they give you, you get a reality check. Most parts of the system are gummed up. Not sure if its the mechanism experiencing entropy from long neglect or if the answer is more complicated. But I had what I thought would be a simple thing to do, namely, get a sleeping room or be denied, but I got to jump through hoops only to find myself in a callin queue with no idea how long it would be. After 20 minutes, I just gave up and settled for a coach seat.


----------



## fairviewroad

RRUserious said:


> A little more CANDID would be that if you don't have the app, prepare to be on hold at USA-RAIL. Till the busy summer season is over, they are queued up. They try to make it all seem so simple, but when you try to follow any instructions they give you, you get a reality check. Most parts of the system are gummed up. Not sure if its the mechanism experiencing entropy from long neglect or if the answer is more complicated. But I had what I thought would be a simple thing to do, namely, get a sleeping room or be denied, but I got to jump through hoops only to find myself in a callin queue with no idea how long it would be. After 20 minutes, I just gave up and settled for a coach seat.


But in this service advisory, they're telling people to call the 800# to check train status, not to book seats. And unless there's a service disruption, the train

status on the phone is automated, meaning there are no wait times. Granted, when they turn the train at SPK that triggers a "service disruption" for the rest

of the line, meaning you have to speak to an agent. But on most days, if the train is simply running a few hours late, you can easily and quickly get train status

via the phone.


----------



## yarrow

fairviewroad said:


> Hey, um, don't know if anyone knows about this, but apparently the Empire Builder is having some problems this summer. I just
> 
> learned about it on the Amtrak website. Fortunately, things will be cleared up by August 30! :giggle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Empire Builder Trains 7, 27 and 807 and Trains 8, 28 and 808: Significant Delays Along the Route*
> 
> *Effective through August 30, 2012*
> 
> Passengers traveling aboard the Empire Builder may experience delays of approximately two to five hours due to track work, speed restrictions caused by extreme heat conditions and other operating conditions along the route.
> 
> Passengers should plan for the possibility of a delay and contact Amtrak before heading to the station. The most up-to-date arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free iPhone app and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).
> 
> Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience.
Click to expand...

i always wonder how many high level administrative meetings go into a statement like this service advisory which says nothing. what does "plan for the possibility of a delay" mean? plan that you won't make your connection? "effective through august 30, 2012". things will be fine on 9/1 or expect another service advisory (realizing it took amtrak several months to issue this one)?


----------



## Eric S

I'm scheduled to depart MKE on 7 tomorrow. I noticed this service advisory on the Amtrak site earlier today, then this afternoon received two emails and a voicemail stating the same thing.


----------



## montana mike

I have taken the EB three times so far this summer and will ride it twice more before mid-September. From what I have seen it is a combination of some bad luck, a lot of track construction, significantly increased freight traffic (big time increases from Williston to the east especially) and to a lesser extent the heat issue. As I stated in my earlier messages yesterday across the northern plains the weather was actually pleasant and even cool in ND(light rain) yet we continued to plod along at speeds that were downright pokey (less than 60 mph for a long while). Even the conductors on the EB were shaking their heads, since BNSF was enforcing the heat restrictions, even when the temps were in the 60's and 70's--which is ludicrous.

Rather than being totally a "summer" phenomenon I truly believe this is a structural shift on this line. The new energy related freight traffic will not only not go away it will continue to increase and increase rapidly. Anyone that has seen the activity in western ND knows this. Montana's exports of various grains (mostly to the west coast) will be up double digits this year and will continue to increase, so that is in no way a summer item. Some significant additional export coal movement is also noted-mostly destined for the west coast ports. Another kicker is the increased use of the trains by FedEx and UPS to move items longer distances. My local BNSF contact here in WFH says this has also greatly increased over the past couple years and has been quite a money-maker for BNSF. The recent derailment in MT involved some of these types of cars btw.

Looking at reality here a 4 to 6 hour delay in CHI arrivals will become a de facto "norm" going into the future and on time arrivals in SEA and PDX will become increasingly rare, with more and more turn arounds in Spokane or a realization that the schedule MUST be adjusted to reflect the new realities of what is occurring on the high line. e all know that most of this route is single track, which greatly limits the number of trains that can move swiftly on the route. The cost to make this route twin track would run into billions, so I don't think this is in the cards, at least for a while.

One last note. This is a good news/bad news thing. The number of passengers getting on and off in Williston and Minot continues to increase rapidly as energy field activity increases (as energy activity increase in eastern MT in the next few years places like Wolf Point and Glasgow will likely see changes as well, though not as dramatic as Williston). I spoke with a friend who is very active in the Bakken Field and he said we haven't seen anything yet. He expects Williston's population to double in size over the next 5 years or so, putting an even greater strain on all public services, including the trains. With so many new customers getting on in Williston now-going both ways, this greatly limits the number of seats/rooms available for longer distance travel.

At least there is some small recognition by Amtrak they have a problem, but I too am afraid they don't grasp what is truly happening here. The northern plains are no longer the sleepy quiet corner of the US.........


----------



## RRUserious

Mike is undoubtedly right. It is structural. Amtrak has lived on borrowed time and the loan has come due. Basically cars and planes have stolen decades from passenger rail's life. It is now old and frail, and the country is in a huge financial crisis. Don't look to the neglect being rectified. Too many elections went the wrong way. It may take a lot of years, but I think a time is coming when the economy is going to suffer from all this. But with our national fascination for the short term, why would anyone care about a time that far off?


----------



## yarrow

anbody know what happened to 27? i don't think 28 left pdx yeaterday. 27/28 seem to have disappeared. also, what is happening with 8 that should be in chi today? thanks


----------



## NY Penn

Here's what happened with that #8:


The previous consist's locomotives derailed in SEA's yard.
There were no spares.
Therefore, this consist was turned in SPK to replace the derailed consist.
Because the two trains meet in SPK, there's not enough space in the schedule there for turns and so the train left very late.
In typical EB fashion, it proceeded to lose 4 or 5 hours across the Hi-Line.

So that's why the #8 due in CHI today is so late.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

NY Penn, why did the locomitves derail in SEA?



Trogdor said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the tracks are bent, they are probably caused by high heat, so the heat restrictions are not without reason. Debris mght be caused by falling rock or trees. Accidents remain a big problem, don't know how to solve it.
> 
> Derailments happen so often with freight trains that something seems very wrong with them.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, you should totally join the NTSB.
Click to expand...

No, I should not!



EB_OBS said:


> Well it's been mudslides, landslides, fires, derailments, floods, heat restrictions, track work and track closures, broken down freight trains, cars on track, grade-crossing strikes, high winds, suicidal trespassers and trespasser strikes, broken bolster springs and B/O diner cars, now there was the Grizzly bear in Shelby, MT that caused a delay to #7 and now the Empire Builder itself has derailed both locomotives in the Seattle yard.
> 
> What could be next?


That's really bad. That's just really, really bad! :angry2:


----------



## Trogdor

It seems they are looking to find enough equipment (mainly by cutting spares down very, very low) to add a sixth train to the rotation. This will enable the train to depart Seattle on time if the inbound is late. This will run for about a month starting some time next week.

Also, no new connections being sold from 8 to eastern trains (except 48) through the end of the month.


----------



## yarrow

Trogdor said:


> Also, no new connections being sold from 8 to eastern trains (except 48) through the end of the month.


wow. i wonder if amtrak has contacted those who already have connections booked and what they are telling them?


----------



## RRUserious

Hope those people can find this board and give timely warning to others.


----------



## TrainLoverJoy

yarrow said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, no new connections being sold from 8 to eastern trains (except 48) through the end of the month.
> 
> 
> 
> wow. i wonder if amtrak has contacted those who already have connections booked and what they are telling them?
Click to expand...

I have an eastern connection (reservation made last month) and I have not heard from Amtrak. However, my connection will be September 30......maybe they're hoping for the best, that things will have improved greatly by then.


----------



## Ryan

Since the advisory says "through August 30" I wouldn't expect to.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?


Was not there but...,

Ran over a derailer, pick a switch, ram the coaches, the rail spread under the load, rail flip over, someone remove the rail spikes, the engine was seized for a bad debit, there was ice built up between the tracks, there was a asphalt built up between the tracks, a wheel cracked, a truck crack, I am sure that a few are missing.

Please feel free to pick one. All are cause of derailments or the engine getting put out of service. All have happen in the last 15 years.

Does it really matter. Railroading is a outside sport. Stuff happens.


----------



## Donctor

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?
> 
> 
> 
> Was not there but...,
> 
> Ran over a derailer, pick a switch, ram the coaches, the rail spread under the load, rail flip over, someone remove the rail spikes, the engine was seized for a bad debit, there was ice built up between the tracks, there was a asphalt built up between the tracks, a wheel cracked, a truck crack, I am sure that a few are missing.
> 
> Please feel free to pick one. All are cause of derailments or the engine getting put out of service. All have happen in the last 15 years.
> 
> Does it really matter. Railroading is a outside sport. Stuff happens.
Click to expand...


It was that goat again.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?
> 
> 
> 
> Was not there but...,
> 
> Ran over a derailer, pick a switch, ram the coaches, the rail spread under the load, rail flip over, someone remove the rail spikes, the engine was seized for a bad debit, there was ice built up between the tracks, there was a asphalt built up between the tracks, a wheel cracked, a truck crack, I am sure that a few are missing.
> 
> Please feel free to pick one. All are cause of derailments or the engine getting put out of service. All have happen in the last 15 years.
> 
> Does it really matter. Railroading is a outside sport. Stuff happens.
Click to expand...

Most of those things are preentable. Why were they not prevented?


----------



## Texan Eagle

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?
> 
> 
> 
> Was not there but...,
> 
> Ran over a derailer, pick a switch, ram the coaches, the rail spread under the load, rail flip over, someone remove the rail spikes, the engine was seized for a bad debit, there was ice built up between the tracks, there was a asphalt built up between the tracks, a wheel cracked, a truck crack, I am sure that a few are missing.
> 
> Please feel free to pick one. All are cause of derailments or the engine getting put out of service. All have happen in the last 15 years.
> 
> Does it really matter. Railroading is a outside sport. Stuff happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of those things are preentable. Why were they not prevented?
Click to expand...

So you think the folks in SEA deliberately let the locomotives derail? Seriously? A locomotive derailment is an accident and by definition, accident is something that happens when you don't expect it to happen. Look at plane crashes around the world over the years. There is technology to make planes safe to fly and under ideal conditions no plane would ever crash, but yet some do crash and will continue to crash in the future. As the above poster said, stuff happens.


----------



## williamflemming

Did you know on the Amtrak web page they are now predicting 2-5 hours late  . This would be awesome going eastbound. IMHO, I think any one wanting to see the best of the empire builder should take it now. You will probably get maybe even the whole Rockies' range in Montana!!!!!!!! I consider this lateness a double edge sword. :lol:


----------



## yarrow

williamflemming said:


> Did you know on the Amtrak web page they are now predicting 2-5 hours late  . This would be awesome going eastbound. IMHO, I think any one wanting to see the best of the empire builder should take it now. You will probably get maybe even the whole Rockies' range in Montana!!!!!!!! I consider this lateness a double edge sword. :lol:


going east you always get the rockies in the daytime.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Texan Eagle said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?
> 
> 
> 
> Was not there but...,
> 
> Ran over a derailer, pick a switch, ram the coaches, the rail spread under the load, rail flip over, someone remove the rail spikes, the engine was seized for a bad debit, there was ice built up between the tracks, there was a asphalt built up between the tracks, a wheel cracked, a truck crack, I am sure that a few are missing.
> 
> Please feel free to pick one. All are cause of derailments or the engine getting put out of service. All have happen in the last 15 years.
> 
> Does it really matter. Railroading is a outside sport. Stuff happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of those things are preventable. Why were they not prevented?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you think the folks in SEA deliberately let the locomotives derail? Seriously? A locomotive derailment is an accident and by definition, accident is something that happens when you don't expect it to happen. Look at plane crashes around the world over the years. There is technology to make planes safe to fly and under ideal conditions no plane would ever crash, but yet some do crash and will continue to crash in the future. As the above poster said, stuff happens.
Click to expand...

I don't think they deliberately let it derail, but these derailments juat happen way too much. Stuff happens, yes, but accidents happening three times a week (including freight) is not acceptable! Too many accidents!


----------



## JayPea

I think this might have been the cause of one of the derailments:







:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## williamflemming

yarrow said:


> williamflemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know on the Amtrak web page they are now predicting 2-5 hours late  . This would be awesome going eastbound. IMHO, I think any one wanting to see the best of the empire builder should take it now. You will probably get maybe even the whole Rockies' range in Montana!!!!!!!! I consider this lateness a double edge sword. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> going east you always get the rockies in the daytime.
Click to expand...

I mean, not just from Whitefish east.


----------



## Donctor

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?
> 
> 
> 
> Was not there but...,
> 
> Ran over a derailer, pick a switch, ram the coaches, the rail spread under the load, rail flip over, someone remove the rail spikes, the engine was seized for a bad debit, there was ice built up between the tracks, there was a asphalt built up between the tracks, a wheel cracked, a truck crack, I am sure that a few are missing.
> 
> Please feel free to pick one. All are cause of derailments or the engine getting put out of service. All have happen in the last 15 years.
> 
> Does it really matter. Railroading is a outside sport. Stuff happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of those things are preentable. Why were they not prevented?
Click to expand...

You can't stop the goat.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?


They got tired and wanted to lay down for a nap :giggle:


----------



## RRUserious

Are these guys aware of what's happening? How about talking to BNSF instead?



> U.S. Sens. Max Baucus and Jon Tester, D-Mont., are urging Amtrak to increase capacity on the Empire Builder to help energy-impacted communities take full advantage of the Bakken oil and gas boom.
> “We are hearing from our constituents that Amtrak passenger capacity for Montanans, tourists and other passengers trying to travel through eastern Montana and western North Dakota can be ‘extremely limited.’ The swell of demand for travel into and out of the Bakken region must be addressed,” Baucus and Tester wrote in a letter to Amtrak President and CEO Joseph Boardman. “Reliable long-distance passenger rail service is vitally important for our constituents, especially as many residents commute from central or western Montana to jobs in the Bakken. The Empire Builder route is an essential part of spurring economic development in northern Montana communities, many of which face great distances to reach the nearest airport.”
> 
> Baucus and Tester noted the Empire Builder contributes an estimated $14 million annually to communities along the Hi-Line and is experiencing a dramatic rise in ridership related to Bakken energy development. They also urged Amtrak to expand passenger capacity to better accommodate veterans in remote rural areas who must travel long distances to access services at Veterans Affairs facilities.
> 
> In support of the booming energy production in the Bakken, Tester also recently called on the Interior Department to more quickly permit responsible energy development projects that drive economic development and create jobs.
> 
> Transportation infrastructure has been a cornerstone of Baucus’ ongoing Call to Action in the Bakken to address increased pressure on communities related to the oil and gas boom in eastern Montana.


----------



## Ispolkom

RRUserious said:


> Are these guys aware of what's happening? How about talking to BNSF instead?


Notice that they didn't actually talk to anyone at Amtrak. They sent a letter, which allowed them to issue a press release.

Mission accomplished.

You didn't think that they actually had any hope of changing things on the Hi Line, did you? Expanding capacity would require more equipment, and that isn't coming for years, even in the best case. The key here is that Senator Tester is running for reelection this year. This is strictly for local consumption, showing that he's watching out for his constituents.


----------



## yarrow

Ispolkom said:


> You didn't think that they actually had any hope of changing things on the Hi Line, did you? Expanding capacity would require more equipment, and that isn't coming for years, even in the best case. The key here is that Senator Tester is running for reelection this year. This is strictly for local consumption, showing that he's watching out for his constituents.


yup


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

JayPea said:


> I think this might have been the cause of one of the derailments:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:


I know it's a joke, but the picture looks real. Where's that? Which rail line?



williamflemming said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> williamflemming said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you know on the Amtrak web page they are now predicting 2-5 hours late  . This would be awesome going eastbound. IMHO, I think any one wanting to see the best of the empire builder should take it now. You will probably get maybe even the whole Rockies' range in Montana!!!!!!!! I consider this lateness a double edge sword. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> going east you always get the rockies in the daytime.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I mean, not just from Whitefish east.
Click to expand...

If the train is on time, you not only see from Whitefish east, but from just past Libby. If you get lucky you could even start seeing before Libby. Iff the train is late three hours you would start seeing at Sandpoint. You're not going to see anything west of Spokane even if the train is late, unless it's over four hours.

No offence, but I don't think you've taken this train before.


----------



## montana mike

I take the EB a lot and even with these terrible overall arrival delays in CHI, the Eastbound EB is usually close to being on time when it pulls into WFH in the AM, so you really don't get any big "advantage" in this regard. The loss of time occurs once the train gets out into the plains, as manifested today again for train 8. It was less than 1 hour behind schedule after the trek thru Glacier NP, but by the time it reached the MT/ND line it has lost an additional 2 1/2 hours due to those now infamous extreme heat slow orders. I agree safety should always be paramount, but the temps being experienced in MT and ND over the past several days have been within a few degrees of "normal" and certainly would not be considered by any local as extreme heat. I have taken this train for years now and do not recall having such slow orders in the summer like this when temperatures were normal for this time of year on the High Line.

Oh, well, it is what it is.

I am on the EB late next week and also got both an email and phone call (automated) from Amtrak alerting me about the anticipated 2-5 hour delay. They haven't done their math very well. The average delays over the past several weeks have been closer to 4-7 hours. That information would have been much more realistic. I am already planning to change my rental car pick up location (can't pick up the car in Union Station after 7 PM and I see almost zero chance of arriving before that time).


----------



## amamba

I wonder if BNSF is doing the slow orders/heat restrictions because of the repeated derailments in the area. I mean, three derailments this summer sounds like a lot.


----------



## JayPea

Swadian Hardcore said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this might have been the cause of one of the derailments:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it's a joke, but the picture look real. Where's that? Which rail line?]
Click to expand...


The picture indeed is real. I took it from my second floor apartment window. The line in question is in my town of Colfax, WA, about 55 miles due south of Spokane. It's a former UP branch line that was taken over by a short line in 1991 or so. The line went out of service in 2006 after a wildfire destroyed a trestle a few miles away. As part of a major road construction project (the street you see is a major north - south Eastern Washington highway) the crossing is being removed.


----------



## yarrow

JayPea said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this might have been the cause of one of the derailments:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it's a joke, but the picture look real. Where's that? Which rail line?]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The picture indeed is real. I took it from my second floor apartment window. The line in question is in my town of Colfax, WA, about 55 miles due south of Spokane. It's a former UP branch line that was taken over by a short line in 1991 or so. The line went out of service in 2006 after a wildfire destroyed a trestle a few miles away. As part of a major road construction project (the street you see is a major north - south Eastern Washington highway) the crossing is being removed.
Click to expand...

i thought it was colfax, JayPea, and figured it was some devious right of way improvement scheme of yours to get the eb to run through your town


----------



## George Harris

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, why did the EB locomotives derail?
> 
> 
> 
> Was not there but...,
> 
> Ran over a derailer, pick a switch, ram the coaches, the rail spread under the load, rail flip over, someone remove the rail spikes, the engine was seized for a bad debit, there was ice built up between the tracks, there was a asphalt built up between the tracks, a wheel cracked, a truck crack, I am sure that a few are missing.
> 
> Please feel free to pick one. All are cause of derailments or the engine getting put out of service. All have happen in the last 15 years.
> 
> Does it really matter. Railroading is a outside sport. Stuff happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of those things are preentable. Why were they not prevented?
Click to expand...

Swadian: It is not near as simple as you seem to think. You better believe that analysis of cause and methods of preventing recurrance are being are being are being discussed at all levels from the track foreman and trainmaster up within the railroad and if more that minor also by the FRA. Yes, railroading is an outside sport conducted in all kinds of weather and highly variable conditions otherwise as well, with a large number of rules enforced by the companies themselve and the FRA, plus the laws of physics. For us to sit here and go over it without benefit of the analysis done by those on the ground is simply Monday morning quarterbacking.


----------



## JayPea

yarrow said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this might have been the cause of one of the derailments:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it's a joke, but the picture look real. Where's that? Which rail line?]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The picture indeed is real. I took it from my second floor apartment window. The line in question is in my town of Colfax, WA, about 55 miles due south of Spokane. It's a former UP branch line that was taken over by a short line in 1991 or so. The line went out of service in 2006 after a wildfire destroyed a trestle a few miles away. As part of a major road construction project (the street you see is a major north - south Eastern Washington highway) the crossing is being removed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i thought it was colfax, JayPea, and figured it was some devious right of way improvement scheme of yours to get the eb to run through your town
Click to expand...



LOL Yarrow, as much as I'd like to see the EB run through Colfax, it's a tad impractical.  I'll settle for catching the EB in Spokane and have to be satisfied with the Thruway bus stopping in Colfax. Which, by the way, stops in the parking lot of the building you see in the background, the Ace Hardware store. Obviously they've had to alter their location for their stop now


----------



## Ispolkom

amamba said:


> I wonder if BNSF is doing the slow orders/heat restrictions because of the repeated derailments in the area. I mean, three derailments this summer sounds like a lot.


It does seem like a lot, but the Hi Line isn't the only place in eastern Montana where BNSF has had derailments. There was just a spectacular one (complete with fireball) near Plevna.

This this on the former Milwaukee Road mainline. The summer's derailments have given me an education on the geography of eastern Montana, a place I thought I knew fairly well.


----------



## EB_OBS

It looks like the last cars deadheading to Seattle and Portland, to make up the sixth train set, will be arriving tomorrow.

I'm not sure yet if it's going to sit in protect of a very late arriving #7/27 or if it's going to go into regular rotation.


----------



## montana mike

As long as BNSF keeps issuing the slow downs thru MT and ND (eg today--4 hours lost in this area on the east bound EB) the EB will continue to arrive 4 to 5 hours late into CHI. My BNSF contact in WFH says they plan on keeping the speeds down (60 mph or less) thru at least the first half of September and will "revisit" the program at that time. Track construction and repairs continue to also play a role in these slowdowns as well.



EB_OBS said:


> It looks like the last cars deadheading to Seattle and Portland, to make up the sixth train set, will be arriving tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not sure yet if it's going to sit in protect of a very late arriving #7/27 or if it's going to go into regular rotation.


----------



## EB_OBS

montana mike said:


> As long as BNSF keeps issuing the slow downs thru MT and ND (eg today--4 hours lost in this area on the east bound EB) the EB will continue to arrive 4 to 5 hours late into CHI. My BNSF contact in WFH says they plan on keeping the speeds down (60 mph or less) thru at least the first half of September and will "revisit" the program at that time. Track construction and repairs continue to also play a role in these slowdowns as well.
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like the last cars deadheading to Seattle and Portland, to make up the sixth train set, will be arriving tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not sure yet if it's going to sit in protect of a very late arriving #7/27 or if it's going to go into regular rotation.
Click to expand...


Yeah both trains are still going to be late arriving into Chicago, Seattle and Portland, but at least when it gets out of the gate on-time in the west, we hopefully won't see anymore of these 9, 10 or 12-15 hours late trains into Chicago.


----------



## montana mike

Agree-It's just too bad the 5-6 hour tardiness will kill any chance for connections thru CHI for the foreseeable future. C'est La Vie'

btw--the eastbound EB is now over 5 hours late as it chugs thru Wisconsin towards CHI today.



EB_OBS said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as BNSF keeps issuing the slow downs thru MT and ND (eg today--4 hours lost in this area on the east bound EB) the EB will continue to arrive 4 to 5 hours late into CHI. My BNSF contact in WFH says they plan on keeping the speeds down (60 mph or less) thru at least the first half of September and will "revisit" the program at that time. Track construction and repairs continue to also play a role in these slowdowns as well.
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like the last cars deadheading to Seattle and Portland, to make up the sixth train set, will be arriving tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not sure yet if it's going to sit in protect of a very late arriving #7/27 or if it's going to go into regular rotation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah both trains are still going to be late arriving into Chicago, Seattle and Portland, but at least when it gets out of the gate on-time in the west, we hopefully won't see anymore of these 9, 10 or 12-15 hours late trains into Chicago.
Click to expand...


----------



## anir dendroica

Is that 60 mph at all times, or 60 mph heat restrictions?

If it's a heat restriction, the problem should mostly disappear in September until next summer.

If it's 60 mph at all times, then why? Has BNSF lost confidence in their track after a critical number of derailments?

Mark



montana mike said:


> As long as BNSF keeps issuing the slow downs thru MT and ND (eg today--4 hours lost in this area on the east bound EB) the EB will continue to arrive 4 to 5 hours late into CHI. My BNSF contact in WFH says they plan on keeping the speeds down (60 mph or less) thru at least the first half of September and will "revisit" the program at that time. Track construction and repairs continue to also play a role in these slowdowns as well.
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like the last cars deadheading to Seattle and Portland, to make up the sixth train set, will be arriving tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not sure yet if it's going to sit in protect of a very late arriving #7/27 or if it's going to go into regular rotation.
Click to expand...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

anir dendroica said:


> Is that 60 mph at all times, or 60 mph heat restrictions?
> 
> If it's a heat restriction, the problem should mostly disappear in September until next summer.
> 
> If it's 60 mph at all times, then why? Has BNSF lost confidence in their track after a critical number of derailments?
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as BNSF keeps issuing the slow downs thru MT and ND (eg today--4 hours lost in this area on the east bound EB) the EB will continue to arrive 4 to 5 hours late into CHI. My BNSF contact in WFH says they plan on keeping the speeds down (60 mph or less) thru at least the first half of September and will "revisit" the program at that time. Track construction and repairs continue to also play a role in these slowdowns as well.
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like the last cars deadheading to Seattle and Portland, to make up the sixth train set, will be arriving tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not sure yet if it's going to sit in protect of a very late arriving #7/27 or if it's going to go into regular rotation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It's 79 mph without restrictions, 60 mph with restrictions.


----------



## yarrow

anir dendroica said:


> If it's 60 mph at all times, then why? Has BNSF lost confidence in their track after a critical number of derailments?


excellent question


----------



## yarrow

does amtrak have a consistent(from a passenger's viewpoint)plan for handling connections to the eb? last year on our 14 hour late arrival into chi we were told by several conductors, sca and others the plan would be: overnight hotel in chi and next day's cl. when we arrived, we were herded into the metro lounge and told we would be bussed to was and the busses were upstairs ready to load. we had already cancelled was lodging for one night, told people we would be in chi, etc. it would be nice to know: missed connection means hotel in chi and next day's train. is there a consistent plan for dealing with the missed connections?


----------



## montana mike

Just took a look at today's EBs arriving in SEA and CHI. Looks like the SEA arrival will be between 4 and 5 hours late and the EB arriving in Chicago will likely be well over 8 hours behind schedule. ALL of the EBs are now losing time throughout much of MT and ND. I see no improvement in arrivals at either side of the continent unfortunately. And the "heat slowdowns" do not appear to be the main issue, since several days over the past week have actually seen temps around 80 degrees for highs in these areas. Until train congestion and track maintenance and repair issues are resolved these new 4-8 hour delays will be the norm. Bummer.


----------



## NW cannonball

Here in MSP the EB is the only train there is. Eastbound from here they are doing an "on-time bus" .

I'm just hoping that the track upgrades and uplifts happening this summer help BNSF increase capacity.

Hoping is the key word.


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

_Question about train running late and rescheduling. __I realize that things may change before the end of October, but I am a worrier and a planner and want to know what options I may have to look at. _



_If the EB is still running late in October, I will need to do 1 of 2 things, either move the entire reservation up 1 day or move just the EB portion up 1 day and spend the night in Chicago. How would it work to do that and what recourse do I have if there is a significant difference in price?_


----------



## E Runs

How has ridership been? Aside from those who have no other travel option I can't see many abiding with known 4+ hour delays.


----------



## montana mike

The EB has been full all summer. Partly due to seasonal tourism, but now more than ever from increased ridership due to the energy activities in ND and MT. The Williston ND station is a sight to behold now! I would strongly suggest for anyone planning on making connections in CHI that they allow a minimum of 6 hours or an overnight stay.

I have taken the EB several times this summer and have not arrived less than 4 hours late and usually around 5 to 6 hours behind schedule.

Perhaps indeed BNSF will be thru with it's track maintenance and repairs by October and that may help some, but the significant increase in freight traffic from MT to the east especially will not go away.


----------



## amamba

WiCruiseDreamer said:


> _Question about train running late and rescheduling. __I realize that things may change before the end of October, but I am a worrier and a planner and want to know what options I may have to look at. _
> 
> 
> 
> _If the EB is still running late in October, I will need to do 1 of 2 things, either move the entire reservation up 1 day or move just the EB portion up 1 day and spend the night in Chicago. How would it work to do that and what recourse do I have if there is a significant difference in price?_


Hi WiCruiseDreamer - to change your reservation, you would need to call amtrak or stop by a station and make the change at a ticket window. You would need to pay any difference in fare.

Honestly, I would probably hold off any changes just yet as there is a chance that the cooler weather in October will ease the heat restrictions.


----------



## montana mike

I have been following the EB closely this past week and watching the times between stations, especially in MT. Something isn't adding up. In most cases they are losing almost an hour between EACH one of the last three stations in MT every day. That does not equate to 60 mph speeds, but rather somewhere much closer to 35-40 mph, which is what I experienced last week on the westbound EB. The significant losses of time in areas where they used to actually make up time I believe may be due more to the increased traffic on this single track stretch than heat. I recall we waited for several grain trains, an intermodal and even a tanker train in this stretch, sitting on sidings for 10-15 minutes each time while we let them pass. Even if BNSF slowed the EB down to 60 mph during this period of time between these stations the time lost should be less than half of what is occurring. Look what happened to #8 tonight, still not even to Milwaukee and now almost 9 hours late! A 50 hour ride from SEA to CHI equates to an average speed of 38 mph--pokey.

Bummer.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> I have been following the EB closely this past week and watching the times between stations, especially in MT. Something isn't adding up. In most cases they are losing almost an hour between EACH one of the last three stations in MT every day. That does not equate to 60 mph speeds, but rather somewhere much closer to 35-40 mph, which is what I experienced last week on the westbound EB. The significant losses of time in areas where they used to actually make up time I believe may be due more to the increased traffic on this single track stretch than heat. I recall we waited for several grain trains, an intermodal and even a tanker train in this stretch, sitting on sidings for 10-15 minutes each time while we let them pass. Even if BNSF slowed the EB down to 60 mph during this period of time between these stations the time lost should be less than half of what is occurring. Look what happened to #8 tonight, still not even to Milwaukee and now almost 9 hours late! A 50 hour ride from SEA to CHI equates to an average speed of 38 mph--pokey.
> 
> Bummer.


i've noticed that also. it used to be union pacific would put amtrak on a siding for any other traffic and bnsf had the reputation of getting amtrak through and out of their hair. increased bnsf traffic and maybe a change in their philosophy regarding amtrak. could also be some sidings aren't long enough for the bnsf trains thus mandating amtrak take the siding


----------



## montana mike

The EB conductors did mention that some of the BNSF trains we were waiting for were too long for the particular siding we were stopped at-one was a tanker train and the other was a grain train.



yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been following the EB closely this past week and watching the times between stations, especially in MT. Something isn't adding up. In most cases they are losing almost an hour between EACH one of the last three stations in MT every day. That does not equate to 60 mph speeds, but rather somewhere much closer to 35-40 mph, which is what I experienced last week on the westbound EB. The significant losses of time in areas where they used to actually make up time I believe may be due more to the increased traffic on this single track stretch than heat. I recall we waited for several grain trains, an intermodal and even a tanker train in this stretch, sitting on sidings for 10-15 minutes each time while we let them pass. Even if BNSF slowed the EB down to 60 mph during this period of time between these stations the time lost should be less than half of what is occurring. Look what happened to #8 tonight, still not even to Milwaukee and now almost 9 hours late! A 50 hour ride from SEA to CHI equates to an average speed of 38 mph--pokey.
> 
> Bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> i've noticed that also. it used to be union pacific would put amtrak on a siding for any other traffic and bnsf had the reputation of getting amtrak through and out of their hair. increased bnsf traffic and maybe a change in their philosophy regarding amtrak. could also be some sidings aren't long enough for the bnsf trains thus mandating amtrak take the siding
Click to expand...


----------



## montana mike

Shall we assume that the BNSF derailment east of Miles city, MT on 8-5 did not effect the EB, since this stretch of track is south east of where the EB travels?


----------



## PRR 60

montana mike said:


> Shall we assume that the BNSF derailment east of Miles city, MT on 8-5 did not effect the EB, since this stretch of track is south east of where the EB travels?


Yes. That is the former Northern Pacific line. The Empire Builder uses the former Great Northern line.


----------



## Ispolkom

PRR 60 said:


> Yes. That is the former Northern Pacific line.


Actually, it's the former Milwaukee Road line. The Northern Pacific goes further north, through Glendive, more or less where I-94 is.


----------



## PRR 60

Ispolkom said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. That is the former Northern Pacific line.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's the former Milwaukee Road line. The Northern Pacific goes further north, through Glendive, more or less where I-94 is.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. Typical New Jersey view of Montana rail history.


----------



## Ispolkom

PRR 60 said:


> Thanks for the correction. Typical New Jersey view of Montana rail history.


No, I should apologize for my obsession with the minutiae of northwestern railroading. Your answer was correct in all important respects.


----------



## yarrow

eb 8 arriving in chi this afternoon has left msp and is only running around 90 minutes late. the best for a long time. n dakota temps are forecast low 70's for the week. have heat restrictions been lifted? is there just less freight traffic on weekends? good to see, whatever the reason


----------



## Pat Harper

We were on the westbound EB on 8/3 & 8/4. It was about an hour late getting into Seattle, which I think is pretty good considering all the troubles that train has had lately. We even were fortunate enough to make our connection to the Cascades, as they waiting for the EB to arrive.

Upon our return to Chicago on the EB, however, it was a different story. We were over 5-1/2 hours late, and therefore we missed our connection to the CONO by 1-1/2 hours. Amtrak came through and rebooked us for a roomette on the next train out, put us up in a hotel for the night, gave us cab fare and food money.


----------



## JayPea

yarrow said:


> eb 8 arriving in chi this afternoon has left msp and is only running around 90 minutes late. the best for a long time. n dakota temps are forecast low 70's for the week. have heat restrictions been lifted? is there just less freight traffic on weekends? good to see, whatever the reason



As Yogi Berra might say, it's the earliest the EB has been late in a long time.  :lol:


----------



## yarrow

:help:



JayPea said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> eb 8 arriving in chi this afternoon has left msp and is only running around 90 minutes late. the best for a long time. n dakota temps are forecast low 70's for the week. have heat restrictions been lifted? is there just less freight traffic on weekends? good to see, whatever the reason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Yogi Berra might say, it's the earliest the EB has been late in a long time.  :lol:
Click to expand...

good one :lol:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ispolkom said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. That is the former Northern Pacific line.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's the former Milwaukee Road line. The Northern Pacific goes further north, through Glendive, more or less where I-94 is.
Click to expand...

Doesn't the U.S. 12 follow the Milwaukee Road line?


----------



## Ispolkom

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Doesn't the U.S. 12 follow the Milwaukee Road line?


In western South Dakota and most of Montana, generally, yes. My knowledge of Milwaukee Road Lines West is vague outside of those areas.


----------



## montana mike

EB #8 arrived 2 hours and 38 minutes late into CHI--better, but still not great. I am currently on the EB #8 in ND-running 1 hour and 28 minutes late now in Williston. we went across all of MT at normal track speed a good part of the way (temps in the 70's the entire way), BUT there were slow downs due to the heavy freight traffic. It's that time of the year for the grain trains and now the oil trains are added to the mix, along with several lonnnng inter models.

I left WFH on time this AM, so losing less than 90 minutes riding thru the "gauntlet" I guess wasn't too bad. Now we shall see how much time we lose overnight going thru ND and MN. There is much construction in eastern ND, especially from Devils Lake to almost Grand Forks. Last time I was on the EB we lost another 30-40 minutes thru that area.

All in all it was good to see the EB travel at normal speed at least a good part of the time



yarrow said:


> eb 8 arriving in chi this afternoon has left msp and is only running around 90 minutes late. the best for a long time. n dakota temps are forecast low 70's for the week. have heat restrictions been lifted? is there just less freight traffic on weekends? good to see, whatever the reason


----------



## NW cannonball

montana mike said:


> EB #8 arrived 2 hours and 38 minutes late into CHI--better, but still not great. I am currently on the EB #8 in ND-running 1 hour and 28 minutes late now in Williston. we went across all of MT at normal track speed a good part of the way (temps in the 70's the entire way), BUT there were slow downs due to the heavy freight traffic. It's that time of the year for the grain trains and now the oil trains are added to the mix, along with several lonnnng inter models.
> 
> I left WFH on time this AM, so losing less than 90 minutes riding thru the "gauntlet" I guess wasn't too bad. Now we shall see how much time we lose overnight going thru ND and MN. There is much construction in eastern ND, especially from Devils Lake to almost Grand Forks. Last time I was on the EB we lost another 30-40 minutes thru that area.
> 
> All in all it was good to see the EB travel at normal speed at least a good part of the time
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> eb 8 arriving in chi this afternoon has left msp and is only running around 90 minutes late. the best for a long time. n dakota temps are forecast low 70's for the week. have heat restrictions been lifted? is there just less freight traffic on weekends? good to see, whatever the reason
Click to expand...

Good to hear it seems to be getting a bit better. Here in MSP the EB is the only train there is -- of course it's the same for every other station on the HI-line.

I live within sound of the station here - hearing the double whistle when the EB starts up after throwing the switch into the station - mostly for the last many years this would be early morning - but this summer the sound has been midday at best.

Maybe last year was worse with the floods and total cancellation of many trips.

Hope the EB gets back to more normal on-time performance -- maybe all that track work will help BNSF with the increased traffic in ND. Just hoping.


----------



## EB_OBS

Just when you thought things were looking better;

BNSF derailment


----------



## EB_OBS

Just an FYI, there will be on-time buses to Seattle and Portland departing Tuesday, Aug 14th, at 2:15am and 2:45am respectively.

At this time, due to the additional equipment being used, it's expected that #7 and #27 will go through no matter how late they are.


----------



## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> Just when you thought things were looking better;
> 
> BNSF derailment


good grief


----------



## montana mike

Good Grief is right--another intermodal. I went by the mess still sitting besides the tracks in eastern MT yesterday and now another one on the other side of the border. They certainly can't blame the heat--the temps are actually slightly below normal in ND today.

:-(((



EB_OBS said:


> Just when you thought things were looking better;
> 
> BNSF derailment


----------



## PRR 60

montana mike said:


> Good Grief is right--another intermodal. I went by the mess still sitting besides the tracks in eastern MT yesterday and now another one on the other side of the border. They certainly can't blame the heat--the temps are actually slightly below normal in ND today.
> 
> :-(((
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just when you thought things were looking better;
> 
> BNSF derailment
Click to expand...

It was a grade crossing incident. The BNSF train struck a loaded gravel truck at a crossing.


----------



## Eric S

I'm currently on 8 (12), stopped just east of Havre. As announced on the train, the plan is to eventually proceed to Williston and bus us there to Minot, where 7 will be turned.


----------



## montana mike

Interesting bit of history: an Intermodal derailed at almost the exact same spot in 2005--hmmmm, one would think BNSF would look into the situation. I take the EB quite a bit and the track in that area is definitely not the smoothest ride.

Bummer. This will disrupt things for a couple days at least.

:-((


----------



## montana mike

I wonder if the gravel truck tried to beat the train?

:-(



PRR 60 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good Grief is right--another intermodal. I went by the mess still sitting besides the tracks in eastern MT yesterday and now another one on the other side of the border. They certainly can't blame the heat--the temps are actually slightly below normal in ND today.
> 
> :-(((
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just when you thought things were looking better;
> 
> BNSF derailment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was a grade crossing incident. The BNSF train struck a loaded gravel truck at a crossing.
Click to expand...


----------



## EB_OBS

Early estimate of the track reopening is 6pm 8/14.


----------



## fairviewroad

Some up-close footage from the most recent derailment. No mention of Amtrak in this report:

http://www.kxnet.com/story/19267541/tioga-train-derailment


----------



## johnny.menhennet

fairviewroad said:


> Some up-close footage from the most recent derailment. No mention of Amtrak in this report:
> 
> http://www.kxnet.com...rain-derailment


Jeez that is horrible!


----------



## George Harris

fairviewroad said:


> Some up-close footage from the most recent derailment. No mention of Amtrak in this report:
> 
> http://www.kxnet.com/story/19267541/tioga-train-derailment


Note that this was not track or railroad equipment caused. Quote from the news article:



> A Burlington Northern Santa Fe train derailed this morning east of Tioga after hitting a fully loaded gravel truck that was crossing the tracks.. . . .
> 
> Roughly 30 rail cars, all carrying intermodal containers, were spread out and piled up along the tracks, some had ruptured spilling their contents throughout the wreckage. The crossing where the accident occurred was on a rural gravel road. It was marked but did not have signal lights or crossing gates. The derailment has shut down the main BNSF line track through the area.
> 
> Officials with the railroad said it will take more than a day and a half to clean up the wreckage and repair the damaged track and won't likely reopen the line until late tomorrow evening.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> No one on the BNSF train was injured in the accident. The Highway Patrol and Burlington Northern is investigating the derailment.


----------



## fairviewroad

Sixth trainset now in use?

Yesterday's train #7 didn't arrive in SEA until 6:47 p.m.

Meanwhile, yesterday's train #8 left SEA at 6:08 p.m. -- BEFORE the inbound train arrived. Normally the #7 is turned in SEA to become the same-day's #8.

So you would have had the rare case of two EB's passing each other along the Puget Sound somewhere between SEA and Everett.

Of course, if there was a trainset in SEA, the question then becomes why didn't it leave on time?

Second question: Is there not a spare set in PDX for the PDX leg? Yesterday, train #27 arrived in PDX at 6:27 p.m. But yesterday's train #28 departed

at 8:05 p.m. While that would have been a relatively quick turnaround, that still suggests there was not a spare in PDX. If that's the case, then what's

the point of having a spare in SEA and not in PDX? Because the SEA section still has to wait in Spokane for the PDX section. Consequently the combined

#8 is running 4 hours late heading into Whitefish this morning. I kind of thought having a spare EB set would reduce the chance of train being that late

so early in its run.


----------



## anir dendroica

It was reported on the EB Yahoo Group that #7(12), the first train impacted by the derailment and bus-bridged, ended up running around 24 hours late. Thus it would appear that this train arrived in PDX/SEA just a few hours before #7(13), forcing the #8 departure to be late.

With regard to #28, it appears that #27(13) arrived at 6:51 pm and #28(15) departed at 8:05 pm. Perhaps they did a quick-turn with #27(13) instead of using #27(12), which missed its prior servicing in Chicago due to the bus bridge and probably needed more time to clean.

Just my guesses. Maybe EB_OBS will confirm or clarify. The sixth trainset sure makes things easier - I wonder how long it will stay around...

Mark



fairviewroad said:


> Sixth trainset now in use?
> 
> Yesterday's train #7 didn't arrive in SEA until 6:47 p.m.
> 
> Meanwhile, yesterday's train #8 left SEA at 6:08 p.m. -- BEFORE the inbound train arrived. Normally the #7 is turned in SEA to become the same-day's #8.
> 
> So you would have had the rare case of two EB's passing each other along the Puget Sound somewhere between SEA and Everett.
> 
> Of course, if there was a trainset in SEA, the question then becomes why didn't it leave on time?
> 
> Second question: Is there not a spare set in PDX for the PDX leg? Yesterday, train #27 arrived in PDX at 6:27 p.m. But yesterday's train #28 departed
> 
> at 8:05 p.m. While that would have been a relatively quick turnaround, that still suggests there was not a spare in PDX. If that's the case, then what's
> 
> the point of having a spare in SEA and not in PDX? Because the SEA section still has to wait in Spokane for the PDX section. Consequently the combined
> 
> #8 is running 4 hours late heading into Whitefish this morning. I kind of thought having a spare EB set would reduce the chance of train being that late
> 
> so early in its run.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Is everything all right now? They cleaned up the derailment, right? Please don't get another accident, ugh!


----------



## anir dendroica

Derailment was cleared two days ago. #8 might just make it to Chicago less than two hours late today.


----------



## EB_OBS

What happened to #28(15) yesterday was that the very late #27(12)which arrived more than 24 hours late, ended up with a Bad/Ordered sleeper car.

Train #27(13) arrived at 6:27pm and we used the sleeper off that train set for #28(15) That is what caused the big delay in Portland. Portland does not have the mechanical facilities to replace a broken bolster spring, which was the reason for the B/O sleeper off 27(12) so they had to wait for the next train set to arrive.

There is a full train set in both Seattle and Portland now to protect against a very late arriving #7/27. It is expected I heard that we will have it 'til mid September.


----------



## NW cannonball

Fearlessly predict that after Labor Day the EB will run mostly on time or at worst 2 hours late.

Been watching and riding that train since 1988.

Unfortunately -- the summer runs have the best daylight + scenery but the worst delays from trackwork, crowding, floods, heat spells, etc.

One delay that can happen year around is slow orders for high winds in the lee of the Rockies - Western Montana east of Marias Pass.

In winter- which will soon start in Montana and west Dakota - blizzards may also happen.

But OTP gets better in the less desirable months for passengers when track work stops and most freight traffic also shrinks.


----------



## yarrow

NW cannonball said:


> Fearlessly predict that after Labor Day the EB will run mostly on time or at worst 2 hours late.
> 
> Been watching and riding that train since 1988.
> 
> Unfortunately -- the summer runs have the best daylight + scenery but the worst delays from trackwork, crowding, floods, heat spells, etc.
> 
> One delay that can happen year around is slow orders for high winds in the lee of the Rockies - Western Montana east of Marias Pass.
> 
> In winter- which will soon start in Montana and west Dakota - blizzards may also happen.
> 
> But OTP gets better in the less desirable months for passengers when track work stops and most freight traffic also shrinks.


hopefully. we still will have freight congestion, equipment failures, derailments..... but i agree it should improve to at least as good as it has been the past few days (2 hours late into chi)


----------



## railpost

*The current east bound Builder (train 8) which left Seattle on April 15th Wednesday is running 9 hours and 55 minutes late. That's ridiculous.*


----------



## NY Penn

railpost said:


> *The current east bound Builder (train 8) which left Seattle on April 15th Wednesday is running 9 hours and 55 minutes late. That's ridiculous.*


By Empire Builder standards, that's not all that bad.

Now *that's* ridiculous.


----------



## VentureForth

Sounds like I need to take a trip on the EB soon so I can enjoy extra time onboard!


----------



## johnny.menhennet

railpost said:


> *The current east bound Builder (train 8) which left Seattle on April 15th Wednesday is running 9 hours and 55 minutes late. That's ridiculous.*


I must have gotten all jumbled around in Cambridge. I think A LOT more time would have passed between April and now to make the train only 10 hours late, so I think that's about the best we could hope for!


----------



## railpost

railpost said:


> *The current east bound Builder (train 8) which left Seattle on April 15th Wednesday is running 9 hours and 55 minutes late. That's ridiculous.*


* This is a correction. The correct date was August 15th not April 15th and I just learned that buses will be meeting the eastbound Builder in St. Paul to take the people who are running late to all of the local stops between St. Paul and Chicago.*

* Train number 8 itself Is being rerouted out of St. Paul and is now expected to arrive Chicago sometime after 3am.*

*Just received this information from a close friend who is aboard the Builder (8) headed for Glenview Illinois.*

* *

*As to the exact reroute that the Builder (8) is taking , I don't have that information but I would assume that most likely it would use the ex Burlington Quincy (Burlington Northern), which used to be the Builders route into Chicago before Amtrak.*

* According to Amtraks website the Builder is due in to CHicago at 12;28am however this friend aboard the train just gave me the information that the Builder is allegedly being rerouted into CHicago and will be arriving after 3am.*

* My friend however will not be on board as he will be aboard a "makeup bus".*


----------



## NY Penn

What usually happens is that on-time buses run for passengers boarding between MSP and CHI, and the train runs drop-off only east of MSP.

Are you sure it's being rerouted (not doubting you, just making sure)?


----------



## railpost

NY Penn said:


> railpost said:
> 
> 
> 
> *The current east bound Builder (train 8) which left Seattle on April 15th Wednesday is running 9 hours and 55 minutes late. That's ridiculous.*
> 
> 
> 
> By Empire Builder standards, that's not all that bad.
> 
> Now *that's* ridiculous.
Click to expand...

* That really is ridiculous and I thought that a few years ago that the Empire Builder was supposed to be Amtrak's comeback kid. You probably recall when the were supposedly up grading the service.** I can't help but wonder if the ex Northern Pacific line would be a viable reroute for the Builder west of St. Paul as a number of time over the years there has been proposals to at least look into restoring service on at least part of the ex Northern Pacific route though Southern Montana.*

* They eliminated that route in October of 1979 as part of the "Jimmy Carter"cutbacks. *

*It would have been much smarter to run the route to Seattle and Porland having the train run on the ex Great Northern Route (current route) four days a week and the southern route (ex Northern Pacific route) three days a week which is the way that they were running that train anyway for the last few months before the Jimmy Carter cutbacks of 1979.*


----------



## Ispolkom

I'm also surprised by a reroute east of St. Paul. We haven't had flooding recently, which is usually what causes reroutes. Also, #7 seems to be going on its usual route west.


----------



## railpost

NY Penn said:


> What usually happens is that on-time buses run for passengers boarding between MSP and CHI, and the train runs drop-off only east of MSP.
> 
> Are you sure it's being rerouted (not doubting you, just making sure)?


*NY Penn, as I am not on board the train and my friend really isn't a train historian and Amtrak afficionado as I am I would have to or suggest that It be double checked as my friend could have misheard the information or gotten it confused. I did get my friend and his wife to take out a family membership for NARP during the past year and thanks to his wife they are coming back from a long journey out west with their teenage daughter for the first time, so I do have a little bit of a doubt also. Until I get better information or some kind of confirmation I will have to assume that he gave me the correct information ,even though it does sound unusual.*


----------



## railpost

* As a further up date on the progress of the Eastbound Empire Builder (8) which as scheduled to arrive Chicago on August 17 2012 at 3;55pm but was running 10 hours and 24 minutes late and was last predicted to arrive St.Paul Minnesota as 4;50pm Central Daylight time, it was taken off of Amtrak's status list.*

* It was also taken off of Dixieland Softwares Amtrak status Map site as well.*

*This confirms that people traveling east of St. Paul are being put on "make up time buses", but it doesn't confirm if the train is being rerouted or using the conventional route into Chicago.*


----------



## NW cannonball

railpost said:


> * As a further up date on the progress of the Eastbound Empire Builder (8) which as scheduled to arrive Chicago on August 17 2012 at 3;55pm but was running 10 hours and 24 minutes late and was last predicted to arrive St.Paul Minnesota as 4;50pm Central Daylight time, it was taken off of Amtrak's status list.*
> 
> * It was also taken off of Dixieland Softwares Amtrak status Map site as well.*
> 
> *This confirms that people traveling east of St. Paul are being put on "make up time buses", but it doesn't confirm if the train is being rerouted or using the conventional route into Chicago.*


I saw this train approaching the station MSP at 16:59 today. First saw only the engines, moving so slowly they seemed to be standing still from my moving automobile. I wondered for a brief moment why Amtrak would leave 2 engines in St Paul, then saw more of the train moving very slowly up to the platform. Oof-da. Not good timekeeping at all.


----------



## railpost

What a disaster and the train has been running quite late all summer according to this thread. I hope that hasn't turned off too many first time Amtrak travelers.


----------



## Trogdor

Train had to detour because the late arrival would put it through during a CP track work window.


----------



## Ispolkom

Trogdor said:


> Train had to detour because the late arrival would put it through during a CP track work window.


What route did it take?


----------



## railpost

Trogdor said:


> Train had to detour because the late arrival would put it through during a CP track work window.


 *Yes I just called Amtrak that they confirmed that number 8 that was due on Friday August 17 2012 at 3:55 pm isn't due in until Saturday morning August 18 at 4:00 am*. .The reservation agent said that the train was being rerouted between "Milwaukee and Chicago" but didn't confirm the route. 

 That means that the Builder could be running on the Wisconsin Central (Ex Soo Line) or she could have been going by a false assumption and the train could have still been rerouted on the former Burlington and Quincy (Burlington Northern)..

* *


----------



## NW cannonball

railpost said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Train had to detour because the late arrival would put it through during a CP track work window.
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes I just called Amtrak that they confirmed that number 8 that was due on Friday August 17 2012 at 3:55 pm isn't due in until Saturday morning August 18 at 4:00 am*. .The reservation agent said that the train was being rerouted between "Milwaukee and Chicago" but didn't confirm the route.
> 
> That means that the Builder could be running on the Wisconsin Central (Ex Soo Line) or she could have been going by a false assumption and the train could have still been rerouted on the former Burlington and Quincy (Burlington Northern)..
> 
> * *
Click to expand...

Most likely it will go the BNSF along the east bank of the Mississippi. Speed on that line may be as much as 60 mph - recall that when the EB detoured that way back in the floods a few years ago that the limiting speed was account of signaling and grade crossing speed all set for fast freights, no provision for passenger train speeds. Half a century ago rode that stretch on the CBQ Zephyr as a very young child - but no way to go that fast on that line now.

Doubt that they would detour on the WC - would have to go back to Northtown - and the ex Soo now WC is much slower track. Doesn't handle any fast freights at all. But it would be *extremely *rare mileage if they did take the EB that way . Likely wouldn't get to Chicago until late afternoon, not 3 or 4 am.

About "track work windows" - a railroad, like a train, is *very *long and very narrow. Any mainline track is used as near capacity as the railroad can manage. So when they have to do track work - it's plan, plan, plan - have the track crew on-site and ready - and when they get their few hours to work they *work *as fast as possible - because - unlike freeway road work - every hour is costing the railroad revenue (for freeway work the cost of backups it just foisted on the road user). Busting a track maintenance "window" almost never happens - because the track crew is lined up and ready to work fast - and if they can't do the work as scheduled their whole pay and equipment rent is just wasted and will have to be rescheduled with *more *revenue loss.


----------



## montana mike

An update for fellow readers on today's EB out of CHI. I am currently sitting on the train--going nowhere. Scheduled departure was 2:15 as always, but the new time estimate is close to 5 PM now. Why the delay--a 400MV line between an engine and the baggage car blew while in the station. They decided to board us, even though it will still be at least another hour or so, while they decouple one of the engines and the baggage car and take them back to the yard and replace them with another engine and baggage car. Soooooo, we will begin our journey likely close to 3 hours late, which means this sucker will likely be 6-7 hours late by the end of its journey in a couple days, given the continuing delays across the hi-line.

C'est La Vie'

:-((


----------



## PRR 60

montana mike said:


> An update for fellow readers on today's EB out of CHI. I am currently sitting on the train--going nowhere. Scheduled departure was 2:15 as always, but the new time estimate is close to 5 PM now. Why the delay--a 400MV line between an engine and the baggage car blew while in the station. They decided to board us, even though it will still be at least another hour or so, while they decouple one of the engines and the baggage car and take them back to the yard and replace them with another engine and baggage car. Soooooo, we will begin our journey likely close to 3 hours late, which means this sucker will likely be 6-7 hours late by the end of its journey in a couple days, given the continuing delays across the hi-line.
> 
> C'est La Vie'
> 
> :-((


They might as well order the buses at Spokane right now.


----------



## Texan Eagle

montana mike said:


> An update for fellow readers on today's EB out of CHI. I am currently sitting on the train--going nowhere. Scheduled departure was 2:15 as always, but the new time estimate is close to 5 PM now. Why the delay--a 400MV line between an engine and the baggage car blew while in the station. They decided to board us, even though it will still be at least another hour or so, while they decouple one of the engines and the baggage car and take them back to the yard and replace them with another engine and baggage car. Soooooo, we will begin our journey likely close to 3 hours late, which means this sucker will likely be 6-7 hours late by the end of its journey in a couple days, given the continuing delays across the hi-line.
> 
> C'est La Vie'
> 
> :-((


The EB seems to be hell bent on creating a new record for _Maximum Number of Different Ways To Get Delayed_


----------



## NY Penn

PRR 60 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> An update for fellow readers on today's EB out of CHI. I am currently sitting on the train--going nowhere. Scheduled departure was 2:15 as always, but the new time estimate is close to 5 PM now. Why the delay--a 400MV line between an engine and the baggage car blew while in the station. They decided to board us, even though it will still be at least another hour or so, while they decouple one of the engines and the baggage car and take them back to the yard and replace them with another engine and baggage car. Soooooo, we will begin our journey likely close to 3 hours late, which means this sucker will likely be 6-7 hours late by the end of its journey in a couple days, given the continuing delays across the hi-line.
> 
> C'est La Vie'
> 
> :-((
> 
> 
> 
> They might as well order the buses at Spokane right now.
Click to expand...

The sixth consist negates the need for Spokane buses.


----------



## montana mike

Sunday update on the eastbound EB in ND now. Running about 4 hours late--only have lost about 30 additional minutes since leaving CHI 3 1/2 hours late--too bad we started so late. Shouldn't have any heat issues today--temps forecasted to be in the upper 70's to around 80 at best even in MT. So hopefully we won't lose any more time. I likely have just jinxed this trip with my comments now.

Interesting looking at the track work around Devil's Lake. Looks like this will be a long term project to raise the tracks. Huge amounts of rock and steel beams along side of the tracks and in cars in Devil's Lake. Even though there was no work going on today the train still has slow orders thru this entire section, so we poked along at around 20-30 miles an hour for perhaps 30-45 minutes. A great view of the lake and wildlife though.


----------



## orion

Listening to the rail scanner in Grand Forks Monday night, looks like another round of troubles plaguing the empire builder. 8 lost well over an hour due to signal troubles around Thompson, ND south of GFK and then forced to meet 7 further north in Buxton instead of Hillsboro. Last night (Sunday night), signal troubles were reported just south of the station.


----------



## Ispolkom

Not much new in this article on the Empire Builder. I was surprised that the BNSF spokesman said that the number of trains through Minot had held steady. The interior photo accompanying the article shows the glory that is the Minot temporary waiting room, one I've used since 2008, I think.


----------



## montana mike

What the BNSF person did NOT say though was the amount of tonnage had increased. I asked my local BNSF contacts about this comment and they chuckled. The length of the tanker car trains heading east out of ND has increased thru better utilization of engines and they have been able to cobble together some very long trains in the process. So while the number of trains may not be up dramatically, the tonnage has increased and is scheduled to jump big time in early 2013 when the tanker loading facilities are completed in ND.

It has been frustrating for many residents of the high line this entire year to try to book reservations on the EB. The trains are often totally booked, especially the sleepers, and Amtrak has yet to respond to the two MT senators' call to add cars to the EB. My guess is the extra equipment is just not available, which is too bad, since the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).


----------



## Trogdor

montana mike said:


> Amtrak has yet to respond to the two MT senators' call to add cars to the EB.


I laugh when I read about the senators up there calling for increased capacity.

Amtrak has had a fleet plan in place for three or four years now. Total federal appropriations to buy new cars: $0.

Total increase in federal appropriations to add trains: $0.

That is what I call political grandstanding. The senator can go back to his constituents and say "I asked/screamed/shouted at Amtrak to add capacity. Therefore I'm doing my job, so keep voting for me."


----------



## Ryan

montana mike said:


> My guess is the extra equipment is just not available, which is too bad, since the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).


That guess is totally correct, and a a repeated story all over Amtrak.

Hopefully Amtrak can find a way to obtain some more rolling stock and expand capacity. Going to be tough to do in today's political environment. I wonder what the two MT senators voting record is on Amtrak related bills?


----------



## CHamilton

montana mike said:


> It has been frustrating for many residents of the high line this entire year to try to book reservations on the EB. The trains are often totally booked, especially the sleepers, and Amtrak has yet to respond to the two MT senators' call to add cars to the EB. My guess is the extra equipment is just not available, which is too bad, since the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).


There was an interesting post yesterday on the Facebook Empire Builder group:



> ...we managed to scrounge up an extra trainset. That trainset sits overnight in Seattle and Portland so that there will be an on time Train 8 everyday. It's been working quite well for the last week. Even if we're close to on time, we're still turning the older train set. The heat restrictions are less common now, and the derailment is cleared up. I was almost on time today.


I'm guessing that what little equipment Amtrak could find went to the extra trainset, and was unavailable for use as additional cars. But interestingly, I was just able to get a last-minute roomette SEA-GPK for Labor Day weekend, so the west end of the run, at least, has some availability.


----------



## fairviewroad

montana mike said:


> the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).


If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either

a) add another diner

or

b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper

and you may as well forget about it.

Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.


----------



## VentureForth

fairviewroad said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either
> 
> a) add another diner
> 
> or
> 
> b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper
> 
> and you may as well forget about it.
> 
> Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.
Click to expand...

Don't necessarily need to add a Diner. Keeping it open longer with less down time in between meals is a step in the right direction (and something I wish the Silvers would do). Also kick out Da Bums (ie: Crew) and maximize the efficiency.


----------



## fairviewroad

VentureForth said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either
> 
> a) add another diner
> 
> or
> 
> b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper
> 
> and you may as well forget about it.
> 
> Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't necessarily need to add a Diner. Keeping it open longer with less down time in between meals is a step in the right direction (and something I wish the Silvers would do). Also kick out Da Bums (ie: Crew) and maximize the efficiency.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree...and we may as well say that (vis-a-vis more efficient dining car services) since we're operating in a fantasy world right now in terms of even adding cars in the first place.


----------



## OBS

VentureForth said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either
> 
> a) add another diner
> 
> or
> 
> b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper
> 
> and you may as well forget about it.
> 
> Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't necessarily need to add a Diner. Keeping it open longer with less down time in between meals is a step in the right direction (and something I wish the Silvers would do). Also kick out Da Bums (ie: Crew) and maximize the efficiency.
Click to expand...

That sounds great unless you are the passenger that is forced to eat your dinner at !0:00 pm because there was no room until then...


----------



## johnny.menhennet

VentureForth said:


> 1345739296[/url]' post='389043']
> 
> 
> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1345736098[/url]' post='389031']
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1345734393[/url]' post='389024']the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either
> 
> a) add another diner
> 
> or
> 
> b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper
> 
> and you may as well forget about it.
> 
> Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't necessarily need to add a Diner. Keeping it open longer with less down time in between meals is a step in the right direction (and something I wish the Silvers would do). Also kick out Da Bums (ie: Crew) and maximize the efficiency.
Click to expand...

Well probably the best solution on here is to do the plan to move the SSL to the Seattle section and put a full CCC on the PDX section. You could add one coach and one sleeper for each section of the train. You would make the diner sleeper only, and the CCC coach only, first come first serve. You would just leave a notice for coach passengers on the Seattle section that they will not be offered meals on the first night/last morning. Adding even one car of any type would not be okay as is. You cannot make the diner crew work so much. Assuming they have to start prepping 30 minutes (and often more) before the first serving, on a larger train they wold be working 5:30-10, 10:30-3:00, and 4:30-10. That is far too much. I agree with VentureForth that we need to kick out Da Bums during serving times.


----------



## amamba

OBS said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either
> 
> a) add another diner
> 
> or
> 
> b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper
> 
> and you may as well forget about it.
> 
> Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't necessarily need to add a Diner. Keeping it open longer with less down time in between meals is a step in the right direction (and something I wish the Silvers would do). Also kick out Da Bums (ie: Crew) and maximize the efficiency.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds great unless you are the passenger that is forced to eat your dinner at !0:00 pm because there was no room until then...
Click to expand...

Or a staff member in the dining car who has worked from 5 am to 10 pm with barely a break in there.


----------



## Ispolkom

OBS said:


> That sounds great unless you are the passenger that is forced to eat your dinner at !0:00 pm because there was no room until then...


Which happens even now. On some summer trips I've boarded #8 in Minot at 9:45 p.m. and been asked if I wanted dinner.


----------



## fairviewroad

Ispolkom said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds great unless you are the passenger that is forced to eat your dinner at !0:00 pm because there was no room until then...
> 
> 
> 
> Which happens even now. On some summer trips I've boarded #8 in Minot at 9:45 p.m. and been asked if I wanted dinner.
Click to expand...

In June we were on #8 which was about 30 minutes late leaving Minot, and after we left Minot they were still calling dinner reservations

over the intercom, which at that point was about 10:15 p.m. local time. The thing there is that dinner on the #8 goes on Mountain Time,

so from the dining car's perspective it was still "only" 9:15.


----------



## AlanB

VentureForth said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either
> 
> a) add another diner
> 
> or
> 
> b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper
> 
> and you may as well forget about it.
> 
> Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't necessarily need to add a Diner. Keeping it open longer with less down time in between meals is a step in the right direction (and something I wish the Silvers would do). Also kick out Da Bums (ie: Crew) and maximize the efficiency.
Click to expand...

No, you need another diner or something else if you want the coach passengers to be able to get in, assuming that there are 5 sleepers.

One dining car can seat 72, but that is really hard on the crew as there is limited room to prep all the things. So I'll take away 1 table of 4, which brings us to 68. On the Auto Train, where they max out the diners, they can do 3 seatings with a full crew. That's 204 passengers that can be served.

And please keep in mind that this does not allow for the OBS crew to eat anything and the are entitled to meals.

Now, 1 Superliner sleeper has 13 roomettes, so assuming max capacity that's 26 people. There are 5 Bedrooms, which brings another 10 to the party, and then 4 in the family room for a grand total of 40 people. With 5 sleepers, that would be exactly 200 people needing to be fed, if all rooms were at rated capacity.

That would mean that 4 people from coach could be accommodated for dinner maximum.

Now if they adapted the AT idea of seating people in half the cafe car, then they could feed more coach passengers.

However, the best solution remains the original plan for the Stimulus cars that got bumped by the Daily Eagle plan that never happened.

That original plan as noted already, was to add a CCC to the consist and send that to Portland instead of the Sightseer Lounge.


----------



## CHamilton

_Sorry, I see that Ispolkom has already posted this link._

All aboard

More passengers riding the rail in western N.D.



> Ridership at the Stanley station is up 71 percent for the fiscal year through July, compared to the same period a year ago, according to figures from Amtrak. The number of passengers getting on and off is estimated to reach 10,000 by the end of the fiscal year on Sept. 30, up from 6,146 passengers in 2011.
> 
> Ridership at the Williston station is up 84 percent for the fiscal year so far. Passenger numbers are projected to reach 55,000 by the end of September, a jump from 29,920 passengers in 2011.
> 
> Williston, which has been the 11th most active station on the Empire Builder line, is expected to become the sixth busiest. Stanley is on a rise from about 40th place to 24th, said Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari, Chicago.


----------



## Guest

fairviewroad said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> If they added a couple of sleepers and coaches, they would need to either
> 
> a) add another diner
> 
> or
> 
> b) tell coach passengers to simply forget about eating in the diner. It can be difficult for a coach passenger to get into the diner as it is...add even a single sleeper
> 
> and you may as well forget about it.
> 
> Another answer to capacity issues, obviously, is to add a second frequency. But that's an even longer shot than adding a few cars onto an existing train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't necessarily need to add a Diner. Keeping it open longer with less down time in between meals is a step in the right direction (and something I wish the Silvers would do). Also kick out Da Bums (ie: Crew) and maximize the efficiency.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, I agree...and we may as well say that (vis-a-vis more efficient dining car services) since we're operating in a fantasy world right now in terms of even adding cars in the first place.
Click to expand...

I know it would only work for the Seattle section but why not add an amfleet or horizon coach ahead of the transition sleeper. I know it might not have ideal legroom but for shorter trips it would be fine. Not sure how many extra single level coaches are around.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

CHamilton said:


> _Sorry, I see that Ispolkom has already posted this link._
> 
> All aboard
> 
> More passengers riding the rail in western N.D.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ridership at the Stanley station is up 71 percent for the fiscal year through July, compared to the same period a year ago, according to figures from Amtrak. The number of passengers getting on and off is estimated to reach 10,000 by the end of the fiscal year on Sept. 30, up from 6,146 passengers in 2011.
> 
> Ridership at the Williston station is up 84 percent for the fiscal year so far. Passenger numbers are projected to reach 55,000 by the end of September, a jump from 29,920 passengers in 2011.
> 
> Williston, which has been the 11th most active station on the Empire Builder line, is expected to become the sixth busiest. Stanley is on a rise from about 40th place to 24th, said Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari, Chicago.
Click to expand...

It''s interesting that the picture on the link shows the station with only one potential passenger.


----------



## montana mike

I just noticed the westbound EB just spent 5 hours in Glasgow this afternoon--any idea as to what happened?

Bummer.


----------



## anir dendroica

montana mike said:


> I just noticed the westbound EB just spent 5 hours in Glasgow this afternoon--any idea as to what happened?
> 
> Bummer.


Per Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group, there was a fire west of Wolf Point. Didn't spend 5 hours in Glasgow, but did arrive in Glasgow over six hours late after waiting five hours for the fire.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

anir dendroica said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just noticed the westbound EB just spent 5 hours in Glasgow this afternoon--any idea as to what happened?
> 
> Bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> Per Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group, there was a fire west of Wolf Point. Didn't spend 5 hours in Glasgow, but did arrive in Glasgow over six hours late after waiting five hours for the fire.
Click to expand...

What caused the fire?


----------



## JayPea

Swadian Hardcore said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just noticed the westbound EB just spent 5 hours in Glasgow this afternoon--any idea as to what happened?
> 
> Bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> Per Mark M. on the EB Yahoo Group, there was a fire west of Wolf Point. Didn't spend 5 hours in Glasgow, but did arrive in Glasgow over six hours late after waiting five hours for the fire.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What caused the fire?
Click to expand...


Lightning, most likely.


----------



## montana mike

I know that area well. Hardly a tree within miles, must have been a scrubby brush fire. Not very much to burn in that neck of the woods. Just when things were trying to settle down again--this train can't catch a break this year.

:-((


----------



## gn2276

The problem is not that there are not enogh car to add to the train but that right now with the number of cars that are run on the Empire Builder any more cars added to the train you would need to add another loco and that is where Amtrak is short on.


----------



## AlanB

Actually Amtrak has more locomotives today than it had 2 years ago, thanks to the restoration of the 15 P40's with Stimulus monies.


----------



## Trogdor

That doesn't mean the locomotive fleet isn't still stretched thin.

The west coast F59s are dropping like flies due to age and lack of major rebuilds (currently going on, slowly, as engines get cycled through Beech Grove). Then there are the added state-supported services (Virginia expansion, for example) that require more diesels.

Then there's the 110 mph running in Michigan which requires double-ending P42s because NPCU/cabbage cars aren't rated for 110 mph.

Amtrak isn't swimming in extra power. If not for the 15 stimulus P40s, they'd probably be canceling trains (or leasing a lot more freight locomotives).


----------



## yarrow

nation's top long distance train plagued by lateness


----------



## montana mike

Interesting take from the Detroit newspaper! They are correct about one thing-one does have to look at the trip as an adventure-mostly pleasant, but with the occasional really odd happening!!!!

I wonder why Amtrak is saying there is a service disruption for today's #8 EB from Seattle if they have the second train set? Obviously today's arrival of #7-almost 8 hours late-is a factor, but if the second set of cars is already in SEA and PDX, why the Service disruption?

:-((


----------



## winterskigirl

I saw #7 EB fly through Edmonds, WA this afternoon at 5:10 PM which is normally when #8 should be outbound from Seattle. The other 3 EB's are en-route. I'd expect they'll hold in Seattle for turnaround for tomorrow's departure @ 4:40 PM Thus the "service disruption". But, what do they do about today's passengers?


----------



## DET63

Steve4031 said:


> Even if you fly, it is not wise to plan to attend important/expensive events on the day of arrival. Flights get delayed and canceled too. I am sorry you are inconvenienced. IMHO, jumping of the train, and rushing to the airport, may not guarantee you arriving in time to make your dinner reservations. One thing goes wrong, and you dumped a signifiant additional amount of money down the toilet.
> 
> Your best bet is to call the restaurant and see if they will work with you. Call the play house and see if they can work an exchange for you or something.
> 
> Good luck.


Yet many people routinely do just that, sometimes going to and from a destination on the same day. They expect planes to arrive within no more than 15 minutes of published or advertised arrival times. If a flight is delayed, there's usually another (at least between major cities) leaving within the hour, if not the half hour. Perhaps we've been spoiled by air travel, but it tends to be fairly reliable, as others on here have attested in this thread.


----------



## DET63

winterskigirl said:


> I saw #7 EB fly through Edmonds, WA this afternoon at 5:10 PM which is normally when #8 should be outbound from Seattle. The other 3 EB's are en-route. I'd expect they'll hold in Seattle for turnaround for tomorrow's departure @ 4:40 PM Thus the "service disruption". But, what do they do about today's passengers?


Bustitution, at least to Spokane? I really don't know.

Does anyone know what in fact did happen?


----------



## montana mike

And yet I see that #28 from PDX left on time this evening heading to Spokane before #27 even arrived in Portland! And now #8 left SEA 3 hours and 50 minutes late, after having shown as a Service Disruption. I wonder why they didn't use the extra equipment they had in SEA? Of course #28 will have to wait a long time in SPK for #8 arrive, which will mean by the time the combined train arrives in Chicago it will, once again, be very late.

Bummer.


----------



## winterskigirl

Yep. #8 has indeed left Seattle.........3 hours and 50 minutes late. Looks like they were able to "turn-around" the #7 westbound in under 4 hours.


----------



## EB_OBS

The extra equipment is in regular rotation. Normally, there should be no need to use the inbound #7/27 equipment as long as we have the extra train set.

Today however, I don't know why, I'm on vacation, but the extra equipment in Seattle was short a locomotive and a coach.


----------



## montana mike

Rats--Sounds like someone bet that they wouldn't need that locomotive and coach car and used it for another train. So does that mean now that Amtrak no longer has an extra set, since missing those cars is like not having another one anyway?



EB_OBS said:


> The extra equipment is in regular rotation. Normally, there should be no need to use the inbound #7/27 equipment as long as we have the extra train set.
> 
> Today however, I don't know why, I'm on vacation, but the extra equipment in Seattle was short a locomotive and a coach.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Rats--Sounds like someone bet that they wouldn't need that locomotive and coach car and used it for another train. So does that mean now that Amtrak no longer has an extra set, since missing those cars is like not having another one anyway?
> 
> 
> 
> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> The extra equipment is in regular rotation. Normally, there should be no need to use the inbound #7/27 equipment as long as we have the extra train set.
> 
> Today however, I don't know why, I'm on vacation, but the extra equipment in Seattle was short a locomotive and a coach.
Click to expand...

hey, they had almost a complete trainset. well, except for the engine and coach. <_<


----------



## Nathanael

DET63 said:


> Yet many people routinely do just that, sometimes going to and from a destination on the same day. They expect planes to arrive within no more than 15 minutes of published or advertised arrival times. If a flight is delayed, there's usually another (at least between major cities) leaving within the hour, if not the half hour.


Maybe between *major* *domestic* cities.



> Perhaps we've been spoiled by air travel, but it tends to be fairly reliable, as others on here have attested in this thread.


I can give you a long, long history of massive airplane delays. My home is a small city, and a lot of my trips were abroad.

Flights to and from small cities have frequent, and substantial, delays in departure, in both directions, due to, as far as I can tell, total lack of care by by the airlines. The next flight is often many hours off.

Flights abroad also have frequent, and substantial, delays in departure, in this case usually due to airport crowding. The next flight is often fully booked.

And then there was America West, whose entire computer system melted down one. In that case we were all travelling major domestic city to major domestic city. One of us arrived over 12 hours late, having taken more time in transit from Denver to LA than a direct flight from the UK to LA (as we discovered from another person at the conference).

Perhaps *you've* been spoiled by air travel, but I'd love to know what routes you were travelling and by what carriers, because I think this is specific to certain city pairs and airlines. If you were taking the NEC reguarly, Amtrak would probably make you spoiled for reliability!


----------



## Nathanael

AlanB said:


> One dining car can seat 72, but that is really hard on the crew as there is limited room to prep all the things. So I'll take away 1 table of 4, which brings us to 68. On the Auto Train, where they max out the diners, they can do 3 seatings with a full crew. That's 204 passengers that can be served.


Auto Train has two full diners and a table car, as I learned from this fine website (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/32610-line-numbersconsist-listings/). I'm not quite sure how they use them, never having been on it, but it sure looks like they have a "diner for sleeper passengers" and a "diner for coach passengers".



> However, the best solution remains the original plan for the Stimulus cars that got bumped by the Daily Eagle plan that never happened.
> That original plan as noted already, was to add a CCC to the consist and send that to Portland instead of the Sightseer Lounge.


That would definitely relieve the pressure for now and allow addition of more sleepers/coaches. The trouble is, didn't two CCC's just get wrecked recently?

Now if ridership grows *enough*, it would make sense to make the Empire Builder into two separate trains, one for Portland and one for Seattle. One of them could take the southern route through Montana, which would be popular with that state, since it's been advocating for a new North Coast Hiawatha...

Still needs more cars though. Every possible solution needs more cars. Diners, table cars, cafes, lounge carse, sleepers, coaches, whatever, more cars are needed, period. The only way to need fewer cars is to somehow run the trains faster, which gets us back to the title of this thread!


----------



## Nathanael

Ryan said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is the extra equipment is just not available, which is too bad, since the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> That guess is totally correct, and a a repeated story all over Amtrak.
> 
> Hopefully Amtrak can find a way to obtain some more rolling stock and expand capacity. Going to be tough to do in today's political environment. I wonder what the two MT senators voting record is on Amtrak related bills?
Click to expand...

I believe both of the Democratic Senators from Montana have been Amtrak supporters. I believe that the Republican Representative from Montana has been hostile to Amtrak, though I haven't checked recently.

Of course, given the situation, with Montana being a low-population state which has relatively little influence in Congress. Montana would be better off funding extra cars or extra service at the state level, as Illinois, California, and various other states are doing. I haven't looked into the *state* government's words, but it certainly hasn't put in a dime.


----------



## PRR 60

Nathanael said:


> I believe both of the Democratic Senators from Montana have been Amtrak supporters. I believe that the Republican Representative from Montana has been hostile to Amtrak, though I haven't checked recently.
> 
> ...


Are you basing your "belief" on facts, or just based on what you assume to be the political leaning of the senators and the representative?


----------



## AlanB

Nathanael said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> One dining car can seat 72, but that is really hard on the crew as there is limited room to prep all the things. So I'll take away 1 table of 4, which brings us to 68. On the Auto Train, where they max out the diners, they can do 3 seatings with a full crew. That's 204 passengers that can be served.
> 
> 
> 
> Auto Train has two full diners and a table car, as I learned from this fine website (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/32610-line-numbersconsist-listings/). I'm not quite sure how they use them, never having been on it, but it sure looks like they have a "diner for sleeper passengers" and a "diner for coach passengers".
Click to expand...

That is correct, they use one diner for coach pax and one for sleeper pax. However, my count is not based upon the train's total capacity, but rather the capacity of just 1 dining car. The AT using both diners can feed 408 passengers just using the two dining car, more with the overflow seating in the lounge cars and far more when the add a third diner for coach.



Nathanael said:


> However, the best solution remains the original plan for the Stimulus cars that got bumped by the Daily Eagle plan that never happened.
> That original plan as noted already, was to add a CCC to the consist and send that to Portland instead of the Sightseer Lounge.
> 
> 
> 
> That would definitely relieve the pressure for now and allow addition of more sleepers/coaches. The trouble is, didn't two CCC's just get wrecked recently?
> 
> Now if ridership grows *enough*, it would make sense to make the Empire Builder into two separate trains, one for Portland and one for Seattle. One of them could take the southern route through Montana, which would be popular with that state, since it's been advocating for a new North Coast Hiawatha...
> 
> Still needs more cars though. Every possible solution needs more cars. Diners, table cars, cafes, lounge carse, sleepers, coaches, whatever, more cars are needed, period. The only way to need fewer cars is to somehow run the trains faster, which gets us back to the title of this thread!
Click to expand...

Not sure about the wreck question, but Amtrak has more CCC's than they know what to do with. One reason that they started parking an extra couple in LA to pinch hit for the Pacific Parlour cars. The EB plan wasn't waiting for CCC's, it was waiting for sleepers and coaches. Then it all went south with the daily Eagle plan that never happened.


----------



## montana mike

Nathanael said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is the extra equipment is just not available, which is too bad, since the conductors on my last EB trip said they could have easily sold out another couple sleepers and coaches on that trip (there was hardly an empty seat the entire trip and you could hardly find a seat in the lounge car, even at midnight!).
> 
> 
> 
> That guess is totally correct, and a a repeated story all over Amtrak.
> 
> Hopefully Amtrak can find a way to obtain some more rolling stock and expand capacity. Going to be tough to do in today's political environment. I wonder what the two MT senators voting record is on Amtrak related bills?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe both of the Democratic Senators from Montana have been Amtrak supporters. I believe that the Republican Representative from Montana has been hostile to Amtrak, though I haven't checked recently.
> 
> Of course, given the situation, with Montana being a low-population state which has relatively little influence in Congress. Montana would be better off funding extra cars or extra service at the state level, as Illinois, California, and various other states are doing. I haven't looked into the *state* government's words, but it certainly hasn't put in a dime.
Click to expand...

Supporters in words only-which frustrates the heck out of the locals. They only time they bring up the issue of the EB is during election time, then you never hear a peep from them. I have written to both and other than the canned letter thanking me for my interest they have never put their money where their mouth is. I believe the rep has been largely silent on the issue.

Our state has a decent surplus, so they could fund some options, but I have never seen any local legislators even bring something like that up.


----------



## NW cannonball

Two weeks ago I fearlessly predicted that the EB would run much closer to the schedule after Labor Day.

Not quite Labor Day yet - but the OTP gets better and better.

Perhaps next summer will be even worse than the last one, but for now most connections will be made, probably until nest tourist season.

That's how it goes, that's how it's gone these many years.

Solutions to the problem -- don't have any.


----------



## NW cannonball

And now, over the Labor Day weekend the latest EB is about an hour late, and the rest are nearer on-time.

So, this is a good as it gets. But the EB has been and likely will be the most popular train on the system.

Next summer could be worse. Hope the track improvements help at least a bit.

I'll ride the EB again anytime I get a chance to - and support whatever track upgrades might help. Here in MSP, it's the only train there is.


----------



## tim49424

NW cannonball said:


> And now, over the Labor Day weekend the latest EB is about an hour late, and the rest are nearer on-time.


An hour late (5 PM) is acceptable as all connections can be made. The Pere Marquette, the earliest of the connections, leaves Union Station at 5:20.


----------



## CHamilton

Reporting from train 7. We were an hour late at GPK last night but have made up the time and will be early into SEA this morning.

Edit: Arrived at SEA 9:54 am - 31 minutes early!! -- even though they had to back into stub track 4 at King Street.

One of the OBS people got on the PA to ask for a round of applause for the conductors and crew: "this is the first time we've been early into SEA all summer!"


----------



## yarrow

CHamilton said:


> Reporting from train 7. We were an hour late at GPK last night but have made up the time and will be early into SEA this morning.
> 
> Edit: Arrived at SEA 9:54 am - 31 minutes early!! -- even though they had to back into stub track 4 at King Street.
> 
> One of the OBS people got on the PA to ask for a round of applause for the conductors and crew: "this is the first time we've been early into SEA all summer!"


i'll add my applause. we are going spk-chi on 9/11 returning on 9/18. sure hope the otp holds


----------



## fairviewroad

CHamilton said:


> One of the OBS people got on the PA to ask for a round of applause for the conductors and crew: "this is the first time we've been early into SEA all summer!"


If I was a member of the operating crew I'm not sure I'd be so happy about an OBS person giving them credit for the early arrival. The connotation is that the same

people must have been responsible for the train's lateness on other occasions, when that generally isn't the case.

But I do understand the sentiment, though.


----------



## CHamilton

fairviewroad said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the OBS people got on the PA to ask for a round of applause for the conductors and crew: "this is the first time we've been early into SEA all summer!"
> 
> 
> 
> If I was a member of the operating crew I'm not sure I'd be so happy about an OBS person giving them credit for the early arrival. The connotation is that the same
> 
> people must have been responsible for the train's lateness on other occasions, when that generally isn't the case.
> 
> But I do understand the sentiment, though.
Click to expand...

Agreed, although one of the conductors actually got on the air to thank them. I guess everybody was in a cheerful mood


----------



## Shawn Ryu

honestly when it comes to Superliner Long distance train services I definitely dont mind being late 3, 4 or even 5 hours unless I got a connection to catch.

Pleasant train experience with making new friends. More time to do it.


----------



## Bruce-C

Shawn Ryu said:


> honestly when it comes to Superliner Long distance train services I definitely don't mind being late 3, 4 or even 5 hours unless I got a connection to catch.


Therein lies the basic problem with late arrivals! Most travelers have a connection to make or people to meet upon their timely arrival.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Shawn Ryu said:


> honestly when it comes to Superliner Long distance train services I definitely dont mind being late 3, 4 or even 5 hours unless I got a connection to catch.
> 
> Pleasant train experience with making new friends. More time to do it.


If I don't have to make connection and I get more train time, sure, but ONLY if we do not sit in the same spot for hours and hours.


----------



## fairviewroad

Swadian Hardcore said:


> If I don't have to make connection and I get more train time, sure, but ONLY if we do not sit in the same spot for hours and hours.


Bingo.


----------



## CHamilton

Seattle-Chicago train was zero percent on time in July



> Amtrak's Empire Builder cross-country train has had epic lateness this summer.
> 
> By Ellen Creager
> 
> Detroit Free Press
> 
> EAST GLACIER PARK, Mont. — Someone needs to help Amtrak's Empire Builder. The train route has been suffering many years from Amtrak's budget woes — but this summer, train disruptions have been epic.
> 
> During July, the eastbound No. 8 train from Seattle to Chicago had a zero-percent on-time record and was usually late by at least three hours. The westbound No. 7 train had a dismal 16 percent on-time record.


----------



## montana mike

I arrived in WFH yesterday evening only 35 minutes late--and ALL of that was due to BNSF slow orders on track in MT. Now I see that today's #8 EB left SEA 2 1/2 hours late this evening--this after arriving 38 minutes early this AM--sounds like some significant mechanical issues to cause that much of a delay--bummer, the EB just cannot put two good trains together in a row. I did see yesterday that the EB arrived in Chicago "on time" for the first time this summer a couple days ago in CHI--so there is hope!!!


----------



## Nathanael

PRR 60 said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe both of the Democratic Senators from Montana have been Amtrak supporters. I believe that the Republican Representative from Montana has been hostile to Amtrak, though I haven't checked recently.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Are you basing your "belief" on facts, or just based on what you assume to be the political leaning of the senators and the representative?
Click to expand...

I've checked the record of both Senators quite recently, but as for Denny Rehberg, I only have vague memories to go on and I may be confusing him with a previous Representative from Montana.


----------



## montana mike

NONE of the MT Congress people have put their money where their mouth is. I live here and have spoken "live" with my two Senators in the past, and while they both professed support for Amtrak, neither has done anything to help, which is frustrating, since the EB plays such a vital link to the high line. I have written to them both asking for them to take action and did not even get a reply from Baucus. Tester's reply was a canned "I support the people of MT" letter-it didn't even mention the train!!!

:-((



Nathanael said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe both of the Democratic Senators from Montana have been Amtrak supporters. I believe that the Republican Representative from Montana has been hostile to Amtrak, though I haven't checked recently.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Are you basing your "belief" on facts, or just based on what you assume to be the political leaning of the senators and the representative?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've checked the record of both Senators quite recently, but as for Denny Rehberg, I only have vague memories to go on and I may be confusing him with a previous Representative from Montana.
Click to expand...


----------



## Fartknocker

March or June? I have reservations for the EB June 6 and June 12 in 2013 from WI to Seattle. After reading this thread and checking the status almost daily the past few weeks, I was wondering if changing our plans to the last week of March would be 'better'. IOW are we less likely to face the 11-13 hour delays that seemed to be so prevalent this summer, especially on the eastbound EB. Granted the lateness on the retrun trip wouldn't be so bad, but our time in Seattle is already limited. I bought the tickets in July and the price for next June has already gone up $150 one way, indicating it will be pretty busy. So for those who have rode during those times of the year, what would you recommend? TIA


----------



## montana mike

I take the EB sometimes twice a month and June is a very busy month, both for passenger loading and "challenges" on the high line--flooding, track maintenance, et. al. all contribute to delays. The shoulder seasons are often the best times to travel. The one plus is, assuming flooding hasn't shut down the service, the EB still arrives in SEA fairly close to on schedule going west due to the "fluff" in the schedule after leaving Whitefish. It's the return trip that can often be several hours late.

The weather in SEA is much nicer in June than it is in March BTW.



Fartknocker said:


> March or June? I have reservations for the EB June 6 and June 12 in 2013 from WI to Seattle. After reading this thread and checking the status almost daily the past few weeks, I was wondering if changing our plans to the last week of March would be 'better'. IOW are we less likely to face the 11-13 hour delays that seemed to be so prevalent this summer, especially on the eastbound EB. Granted the lateness on the retrun trip wouldn't be so bad, but our time in Seattle is already limited. I bought the tickets in July and the price for next June has already gone up $150 one way, indicating it will be pretty busy. So for those who have rode during those times of the year, what would you recommend? TIA


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> I take the EB sometimes twice a month and June is a very busy month, both for passenger loading and "challenges" on the high line--flooding, track maintenance, et. al. all contribute to delays. The shoulder seasons are often the best times to travel. The one plus is, assuming flooding hasn't shut down the service, the EB still arrives in SEA fairly close to on schedule going west due to the "fluff" in the schedule after leaving Whitefish. It's the return trip that can often be several hours late.
> 
> *The weather in SEA is much nicer in June than it is in March BTW.*
> 
> 
> 
> Fartknocker said:
> 
> 
> 
> March or June? I have reservations for the EB June 6 and June 12 in 2013 from WI to Seattle. After reading this thread and checking the status almost daily the past few weeks, I was wondering if changing our plans to the last week of March would be 'better'. IOW are we less likely to face the 11-13 hour delays that seemed to be so prevalent this summer, especially on the eastbound EB. Granted the lateness on the retrun trip wouldn't be so bad, but our time in Seattle is already limited. I bought the tickets in July and the price for next June has already gone up $150 one way, indicating it will be pretty busy. So for those who have rode during those times of the year, what would you recommend? TIA
Click to expand...

Agreed. Also, as far as problems on the route go, I think winter may actually have big problems as well.


----------



## fairviewroad

Definitely a case of "buy your ticket, take your chance." There can just as easily be a derailment or major grade-crossing accident

involving a freight train in March as in June. I took the EB in June of this year from SEA to GFK and was just 30 minutes late. From

my observation I was in the minority in terms of not experiencing a major delay, but the point is there's just no way of knowing

what you'll get. If June works in every other aspect for you, then I'd say just go for it. You'll certainly have far more daylight hours

in which to enjoy the view in June than in March.


----------



## montana mike

Looks like the delays are cropping back up in MT and ND again. The EB's heading east appear to be chugging along A-OK until eastern MT or ND and then slowdowns--I have noticed three days in a row #8 has lost around 3 hours on the schedule during this stretch, arriving in Chicago around 2.5 to 3 hours late each day. This really makes a mess of connections. Bummer. At least the westbound EBs look like many are arriving in SEA and PDX fairly close to on time. I wonder why the difference? The temps certainly are no factor any more-with day times mostly in the 60's and 70's on the high line.


----------



## montana mike

This is a telling tale:

Long Distance trains arrived ar Chicago Union Station today as follows: #4 - 27 mins early #6 - 8 mins early #8 - Reported leaving Milwaukee 4 hrs, 7 mins late. #22 - 33 mins early #29 - 23 mins early #49 - 30 mins late #851 - 1 min late #58 - 27 mins early



The poor stepchild is the Empire Builder--#8 arrived in Chicago 3 hours and 55 minutes late. BTW--Tomorrow's #8 is already well over 2 hours late, so stay tuned.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> This is a telling tale:
> 
> Long Distance trains arrived ar Chicago Union Station today as follows: #4 - 27 mins early #6 - 8 mins early #8 - Reported leaving Milwaukee 4 hrs, 7 mins late. #22 - 33 mins early #29 - 23 mins early #49 - 30 mins late #851 - 1 min late #58 - 27 mins early
> 
> The poor stepchild is the Empire Builder--#8 arrived in Chicago 3 hours and 55 minutes late. BTW--Tomorrow's #8 is already well over 2 hours late, so stay tuned.


Wow, great OTP for all the other trains, good news anyway. Some trains may need some reduced padding.


----------



## yarrow

we arrived in chi last wednesday only 35min late. our main delay was 30 miles or so of slow orders for track work in eastern montana.


----------



## montana mike

So what has happened since then, with yesterday's arrival 4 hours late? Oh, well. It appears to be effecting mostly the east bound EBs...odd.



yarrow said:


> we arrived in chi last wednesday only 35min late. our main delay was 30 miles or so of slow orders for track work in eastern montana.


----------



## montana mike

The eastbound EBs are routinely losing between 2 and 3 hours in eastern MT each day because of ongoing BNSF track work. I noticed today the westbound EB also was delayed in the same general area for 3 1/2 hours. Does anyone know how much longer this track work is going to continue?


----------



## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> Does anyone know how much longer this track work is going to continue?


I can't imagine more than another 4-6 weeks. I mean, BNSF track crews are tough, but November is Winter on the Hi-Line.


----------



## montana mike

Ispolkom said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know how much longer this track work is going to continue?
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine more than another 4-6 weeks. I mean, BNSF track crews are tough, but November is Winter on the Hi-Line.
Click to expand...

Perhaps with the upcoming El Nino (supposedly mild across the north) they will be able to work well into the winter!! I hope not.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know how much longer this track work is going to continue?
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine more than another 4-6 weeks. I mean, BNSF track crews are tough, but November is Winter on the Hi-Line.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perhaps with the upcoming El Nino (supposedly mild across the north) they will be able to work well into the winter!! I hope not.
Click to expand...

That may not be bad because that could improve tracks and reliability.


----------



## montana mike

I agree completely--but does anyone know what they are doing that is causing BOTH EBs (east and west) to lose up to three hours in such a short run between Malta and Glasgow each day this entire week?


----------



## montana mike

Just happened to look at todays eastbound #8 as it chugs along--now almost 4 1/2 hours behind schedule in Wisconsin. Just when we thought things were getting better the EB's are going back to the bad times of the summer. This one will miss just about every connection in CHI tonight-bummer. Meanwhile on the west coast the 7/27 trains are pulling into SEA and PDX about 2 1/2 hours late-a legacy of the 3+ hour slowdown in MT the day before. I would not be surprised if both did not depart late this evening for their east bound journey. This route just cannot catch a break.

;-(


----------



## yarrow

we were lucky. last week eastbound we just were delayed 30 min or so by the slow orders for track work around glasgow. coming home yesterday, we were on time out of minot. ran into freight congestion just west of minot, more sidings for freight later on, the glasgow track work and then an out of hours crew west of havre. things added up to about 3 hours late into spk


----------



## montana mike

Bummer--even in the "old" days there was enough fluff in the schedule to handle most of those issues and still arrive close to schedule. Today's trains are being effected almost as bad as earlier in the summer. The eastbound #8 will likely pull into CHI around 5 hours late-ouch! Surprisingly they turned the departures from SEA and PDX around for on-time departures despite both of those trains arriving very late. Amtrak should not have ended the "delays" message arbitrarily on 8-30, obviously BNSF continues with some significant track work well into September (and my local sources say now into October), so these trains will be chronically late for some time to come. I just hope I am not 4 hours late when I take the EB in October, since I have to connect with the CONO.

;-)


----------



## montana mike

Does anyone know what has happened to BOTH train 7 and train 8 today. AMTRAK is now showing service disruptions for each one. More problems for this very troubled route. Arrrrrrrrrgh.

:-(


----------



## yarrow

eastbound disruption out of whitefish, westbound out of rugby. odd


----------



## TraneMan

montana mike said:


> Does anyone know what has happened to BOTH train 7 and train 8 today. AMTRAK is now showing service disruptions for each one. More problems for this very troubled route. Arrrrrrrrrgh.
> 
> :-(



Read else where that there is a grain train derailment at Lohman, east of Havre.


----------



## montana mike

TraneMan said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what has happened to BOTH train 7 and train 8 today. AMTRAK is now showing service disruptions for each one. More problems for this very troubled route. Arrrrrrrrrgh.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Read else where that there is a grain train derailment at Lohman, east of Havre.
Click to expand...

Wow--nothing is going right for these trains on the hi-line. :-(

My BNSF contact locally just confirmed the derailments too!! He said this has been the worst year for "rail incidents" in decades and the BNSF big wigs are besides themselves, since they have lost hundreds of millions in freight delays and losses. They can't blame the heat anymore--just poor overall track and rolling stock maintenance. So I guess our AMTRAK mess with the poor Empire Builder is far down the list.

:-((


----------



## CHamilton

TraneMan said:


> Read else where that there is a grain train derailment at Lohman, east of Havre.


AP story: 14 cars of grain train derail in north-central MT



> BNSF spokesman Gus Melonas says cars 26 through 40 of the 106 car train derailed at 5 a.m. Friday as the train pulled out of a siding about 15 miles east of Havre in Blaine County, blocking both the siding and the main line.
> 
> Some cars were on their sides and some remained upright. No one was injured. Melonas says the cause of the derailment is under investigation.


----------



## Ispolkom

TraneMan said:


> Lohman, east of Havre.


Once again, a BNSF derailment adds to my knowledge of eastern Montana. Havre, of course I know. Chinook? You bet. Filled up with gas there once. But Lohman, I can't imagine how many times I've driven on U.S. 2 or ridden the Empire Builder and never noticed the town.

Remarkably, the 1951 Great Northern timetable shows that Lohman was an actual honest-to-goodness stop on a local train, not like the even smaller Adams and Toledo, which were flag stops.


----------



## Phil S

montana mike said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know what has happened to BOTH train 7 and train 8 today. AMTRAK is now showing service disruptions for each one. More problems for this very troubled route. Arrrrrrrrrgh.
> 
> :-(
> 
> 
> 
> Read else where that there is a grain train derailment at Lohman, east of Havre.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow--nothing is going right for these trains on the hi-line. :-(
> 
> My BNSF contact locally just confirmed the derailments too!! He said this has been the worst year for "rail incidents" in decades and the BNSF big wigs are besides themselves, since they have lost hundreds of millions in freight delays and losses. They can't blame the heat anymore--just poor overall track and rolling stock maintenance. So I guess our AMTRAK mess with the poor Empire Builder is far down the list.
> 
> :-((
Click to expand...

Mike - Did your contact say that heat was no longer a factor? I just wonder if the effects of the heat couldn;t continue to crop up for months after the temps actually tapered off. But, yes, what a mess. -- Phil S


----------



## TrainLoverJoy

Phil S said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow--nothing is going right for these trains on the hi-line. :-(
> 
> My BNSF contact locally just confirmed the derailments too!! He said this has been the worst year for "rail incidents" in decades and the BNSF big wigs are besides themselves, since they have lost hundreds of millions in freight delays and losses. They can't blame the heat anymore--just poor overall track and rolling stock maintenance. So I guess our AMTRAK mess with the poor Empire Builder is far down the list.
> 
> :-((
> 
> 
> 
> Mike - Did your contact say that heat was no longer a factor? I just wonder if the effects of the heat couldn;t continue to crop up for months after the temps actually tapered off. But, yes, what a mess. -- Phil S
Click to expand...

I leave on the #7 today. I'm excited, but was hoping all the lateness would have resolved itself by now! Coming back on the #8 October 2.......have no idea what will happen then. I have only 2 hours between connections....I'd say less than a 50% chance I'll make it


----------



## montana mike

Phil S said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow--nothing is going right for these trains on the hi-line. :-(
> 
> My BNSF contact locally just confirmed the derailments too!! He said this has been the worst year for "rail incidents" in decades and the BNSF big wigs are besides themselves, since they have lost hundreds of millions in freight delays and losses. They can't blame the heat anymore--just poor overall track and rolling stock maintenance. So I guess our AMTRAK mess with the poor Empire Builder is far down the list.
> 
> :-((
> 
> 
> 
> Mike - Did your contact say that heat was no longer a factor? I just wonder if the effects of the heat couldn;t continue to crop up for months after the temps actually tapered off. But, yes, what a mess. -- Phil S
Click to expand...


Yes, he said the slow orders due to heat had been lifted (temps on the hi-line back closer to normal for this time of year), but quite a few for construction still ongoing.


----------



## yarrow

i see 8 due into chi this afternoon is running over 7 hours late. looks to have been incrementally losing time since spk. anyone know why?


----------



## fairviewroad

yarrow said:


> i see 8 due into chi this afternoon is running over 7 hours late. looks to have been incrementally losing time since spk. anyone know why?


Don't know if this is the specific problem, but there's a serious winter storm moving through ND:

http://www.grandfork...icle/id/246275/


----------



## montana mike

They were over 5 hours late before they anywhere near the bad weather--which is mostly to their north anyway.

#8 is now approaching 8 hours behind schedule. Interestingly-the Westbound EB only lost about 40 minutes over the same stretch.



fairviewroad said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> i see 8 due into chi this afternoon is running over 7 hours late. looks to have been incrementally losing time since spk. anyone know why?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know if this is the specific region, but there's a serious winter storm moving through ND:
> 
> http://www.grandfork...icle/id/246275/
Click to expand...


----------



## MARC Rider

the_traveler said:


> I would never schedule something that you have to be at a certain time on the day of arrival on a long distance train!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even on a plane it's a chance. I remember once flying from Chicago to Providence, RI - and the "flight" took 8 hours! It is normally a 3 hour flight - and it included 3-4 hours on the ground before takeoff due to heavy thunderstorms on the way!



My brother once took 3 days to fly from Chicago to Washington because of thunderstorms in the Washington area. The longest delay I've had on Amtrak is 10 hours on the Capitol Limited from Chicago to Washington due to winter weather that shut down all the rail traffic in northern Indiana. (Funny, on that trip I came into Chicago on the Empire Builder, and it was a more or less on-time arrival.)


----------



## montana mike

Looks like around 8 1/2 hours late in CHI--bummer. the EB was doing better over the past several weeks until this one. I still wonder what happened, since they lost considerable time at several points on the trip, not just in one location. All of the other EB's on the map appear to be running within a reasonable timeframe except for this one today. Just sorry for those folks trying to make connections. C'est la Vie'


----------



## johnny.menhennet

montana mike said:


> Looks like around 8 1/2 hours late in CHI--bummer. the EB was doing better over the past several weeks until this one. I still wonder what happened, since they lost considerable time at several points on the trip, not just in one location. All of the other EB's on the map appear to be running within a reasonable timeframe except for this one today. Just sorry for those folks trying to make connections. C'est la Vie'


I know the 6th consist was allocated until mid-September. EB_OBS or anyone else with this direct info have any idea on whether it's still together, because it's definitely needed!


----------



## montana mike

I spoke too soon. The Eastbound EB chugging thru ND this AM is now over 4 hours late--again! The delays are mostly occurring in the same general stretch of the EB's route (eastern MT and ND). I travel on this train quite a bit and this is a congested and slow area to be sure, but something more is happening to cause these very long delays, since in the past the EBs usually managed to make up at least much of the lost time from these slowdowns--anyone have some thoughts concerning the reason(s) behind these continuing extensive delays (yesterday's EB arrived in CHI well after 11 PM)? Or is it just a combination of an "all of the above" set of circumstances where the freight traffic, heavier passenger loading, construction and weather have all come together to push the EB's schedule off the "cliff"?


----------



## Exiled in Express

montana mike said:


> Looks like around 8 1/2 hours late in CHI--bummer. the EB was doing better over the past several weeks until this one. I still wonder what happened, since they lost considerable time at several points on the trip, not just in one location. All of the other EB's on the map appear to be running within a reasonable timeframe except for this one today. Just sorry for those folks trying to make connections. C'est la Vie'


I was following this one too, had the day off and was considering using the delay to do a points run. Tickets were available MSP-RDW ubtil about 10AM, I checked again at noon and they were removed. Given the degree of the delay I thought they might be turning in MSP or bustituting local passengers and running detour to Chicago.


----------



## Trogdor

Exiled in Express said:


> I was following this one too, had the day off and was considering using the delay to do a points run. Tickets were available MSP-RDW ubtil about 10AM, I checked again at noon and they were removed. Given the degree of the delay I thought they might be turning in MSP or bustituting local passengers and running detour to Chicago.


No detour unless track is blocked for some reason. They ran buses for local passengers. Those on the train stayed on the train, which ran normal route (after all, there are folks who boarded west of MSP who were destined to places like WDL and POG and whatnot, not to mention the need to pay BNSF to provide pilots for a detour that would essentially save no time).


----------



## Phil S

Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?

On a better note, I just did ALY/LAX/NOL/CVS and everything ran on time or even early. Good trip. Lafayette in NOL was great. Thanks for the tip!

Cheers


----------



## TraneMan

Phil S said:


> Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?
> 
> Cheers


A BNSF grain train struck an unoccupied vehicle on the track near Williston, such that the vehicle could not be readily removed from the lead locomotive.


----------



## yarrow

i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?


----------



## montana mike

Another spate of back luck for the EB. Bummer. #8 has managed to lose an additional 2 hours after the initial delay just in ND this AM and is now over 10 hours late.

:-((


----------



## amamba

yarrow said:


> i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?


What do you mean by penalized? The delays must be expensive to amtrak, since they do have the guaranteed connections and provide hotel, meal and taxi vouchers to folks that get stuck overnight in CHI on late EBs.

Additionally, folks often call customer relations and then receive vouchers for exceedingly late trains. I received what I consider to be a very generous voucher after my long EB trip in July. I used it all very quickly, but most of the tickets I "bought" with the voucher I would have paid cash for. So that is lost revenue, too.


----------



## NW cannonball

yarrow said:


> i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?


Just guessing - every time the EB is seriously late into CHI so connections are missed - the vouchers, hotel rooms, hired buses -

That's got to cost more than the revenue for the entire run. That's the cost to Amtrak.

About the BNSF - Warren Buffet and Berkshire Hathaway - the new owners of the HiLine - they've got to be sweating it too. So many derailments this summer - shippers really don't want their cargo on the ground in Montana, they want where they have paid to get it shipped to.

What the BNSF is doing about it - nobody outside of BNSF knows - but I would bet they have a task force - not to help Amtrak as such - but to get the line into shape as a major revenue producer for their whole system.


----------



## yarrow

amamba said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by penalized?
Click to expand...

i thought the host rr had to pay amtrak for late trains. that's what i was wondering about.


----------



## Ziv

Phil S said:


> Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?
> 
> On a better note, I just did ALY/LAX/NOL/CVS and everything ran on time or even early. Good trip. Lafayette in NOL was great. Thanks for the tip!
> 
> Cheers


I was one of the people that recommended the Lafayette so I am glad you liked it! New Orleans is one of my favorite cities and the Lafayette is a charming older hotel that is not fancy, it shows its age in some ways, but the rooms are huge and comfortable and the staff is very cool, and the location is walking distance to the best parts of New Orleans, in my book. Plus it is right on the trolley line, which is both great, you can catch a ride right outside the door and bad, it does screech and squeal a good bit.

On the original subject, the Empire Builder, well I grew up in Glasgow, so I am very supportive of the EB. But Amtrak and BN have to find a way to not only reduce the slowdowns, but to increase the average speed through Montana and North Dakota. It would be great to see what Amtrak could do if they chopped 2-3 hours off the EB times. I don't think it will happen in the short term, but leaving Chicago later and arriving in Seattle at the same time would be sweet, as would leaving Seattle later and arriving in Chicago at nearly the same time. The tough part would be hitting Glacier park while the sun was still shining as frequently as possible.


----------



## AlanB

yarrow said:


> amamba said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> i would guess the freight delays on the hi-line cost bnsf plenty. how much do the late amtraks into chi, pdx and sea cost them? aren't they penalized for late running or is it not done for things out of their control?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by penalized?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i thought the host rr had to pay amtrak for late trains. that's what i was wondering about.
Click to expand...

No.

They do get bonus money for keeping Amtrak on time, but no penalties for failing to do so. However, since 2008, Amtrak can now appeal for help in the case of chronic lateness if it seems that the lateness is being caused simply by giving freight priority. And Amtrak has filed against two RR's this year, IIRC, but I don't think any penalties have yet been awarded so far.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

TraneMan said:


> Phil S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> A BNSF grain train struck an unoccupied vehicle on the track near Williston, such that the vehicle could not be readily removed from the lead locomotive.
Click to expand...

What fool parked his car on the train track? What was he/she thinking, just want to mess up train ops?


----------



## Acela150

Swadian Hardcore said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phil S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody know what happened last night? EB sat 7+ hours west of Williston. Nothing in TO. No news that I could find, and nothing on BNSF service advisory page. Freight breakdown?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> A BNSF grain train struck an unoccupied vehicle on the track near Williston, such that the vehicle could not be readily removed from the lead locomotive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What fool parked his car on the train track? What was he/she thinking, just want to mess up train ops?
Click to expand...

A fool that had a car breakdown on a grade crossing perhaps?


----------



## AlanB

Acela150 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What fool parked his car on the train track? What was he/she thinking, just want to mess up train ops?
> 
> 
> 
> A fool that had a car breakdown on a grade crossing perhaps?
Click to expand...

One reason my driver's Ed teacher taught us to always go over a crossing with at least 5 MPH of speed. That way, save maybe the transmission falling off at the most inopportune time, you will always have enough forward momentum to clear the tracks should your car stall. And no matter how bad the crossing in terms of bumps, you car can handle those bumps at 5 MPH.


----------



## montana mike

The vehicle at the crossing aside the other EBs have been running very late now in BOTH directions. The #7 arrived WFH last night, or should I say this AM, almost 4 hours behind schedule and the eastbound EB this AM is chugging thru ND almost 4 hours behind as well. If you take away the 7 hour delay due to the accident, the #8 that arrived in CHI this AM would still have been almost 4 hours late. We have a new reality of chronic major delays on this route and AMTRAK needs to acknowledge this and make appropriate adjustments. The "heat" is long gone and construction in eastern MT is winding down, yet the lengthy delays continue, in fact are getting worse. My BNSF contacts say the increase in traditional freight traffic (grain and intermodal especially) and the massive increase in energy traffic from ND are significant factors here and it will only get worse as BNSF ramps up even more tanker trains in the coming months (currently weekly movement is 2500 cars, they are targeting 5000 cars a week by mid-2013). It is pointless to have a schedule that is never kept. Not a single #8 train arrived on time in CHI in August or Sept.

:-(((


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> The vehicle at the crossing aside the other EBs have been running very late now in BOTH directions. The #7 arrived WFH last night, or should I say this AM, almost 4 hours behind schedule and the eastbound EB this AM is chugging thru ND almost 4 hours behind as well. If you take away the 7 hour delay due to the accident, the #8 that arrived in CHI this AM would still have been almost 4 hours late. We have a new reality of chronic major delays on this route and AMTRAK needs to acknowledge this and make appropriate adjustments. The "heat" is long gone and construction in eastern MT is winding down, yet the lengthy delays continue, in fact are getting worse. My BNSF contacts say the increase in traditional freight traffic (grain and intermodal especially) and the massive increase in energy traffic from ND are significant factors here and it will only get worse as BNSF ramps up even more tanker trains in the coming months (currently weekly movement is 2500 cars, they are targeting 5000 cars a week by mid-2013). It is pointless to have a schedule that is never kept. Not a single #8 train arrived on time in CHI in August or Sept.
> 
> :-(((


Things aren't looking up for the EB, that's for sure.


----------



## anir dendroica

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Things aren't looking up for the EB, that's for sure.


Not too bad tonight:

#8(6) arrived Chicago 36 minutes late

#7(6) arrived Seattle 23 minutes early

#8(7) 50 minutes late at Devils Lake, could make that up by Chicago if no further delays

#7(7) on time (4 minutes late) at Libby, MT

All of today's departures (#7, #8, #28) are on time.


----------



## Trogdor

anir dendroica said:


> Not too bad tonight:
> 
> #8(6) arrived Chicago 36 minutes late
> 
> #7(6) arrived Seattle 23 minutes early
> 
> #8(7) 50 minutes late at Devils Lake, could make that up by Chicago if no further delays
> 
> #7(7) on time (4 minutes late) at Libby, MT
> 
> All of today's departures (#7, #8, #28) are on time.


Yeah, the Builder is definitely unfixable and needs a major schedule change.


----------



## Phil S

A schedule change won't fix problems that put the EB 10 hrs late one day and on time the next.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Phil S said:


> A schedule change won't fix problems that put the EB 10 hrs late one day and on time the next.


It was my impression (which could very well be way wrong) that he was being sarcastic.


----------



## Phil S

AmtrakBlue said:


> Phil S said:
> 
> 
> 
> A schedule change won't fix problems that put the EB 10 hrs late one day and on time the next.
> 
> 
> 
> It was my impression (which could very well be way wrong) that he was being sarcastic.
Click to expand...


Ooops.


----------



## anir dendroica

My report from #8(12).

On time out of PDX/SEA. 15 minutes early into Spokane, 13 minutes early into Whitefish, 25 minutes early into Shelby, MT. That's almost an hour of padding that should be moved farther east.

20 minutes lost between Havre and Malta due to two long 25 mph sections (tie replacement project)

14 minutes lost between Malta and Glasgow, stopped to meet a grain train

22 minutes lost between Glasgow and Wolf Point, stopped to meet a grain train, then slowing to follow a Z train (priority intermodal) and a stack train.

16 minutes lost between Wolf Point and Williston, as the two trains ahead of us pulled into sidings to let us pass.

No delays between Williston and Minot, made up 20 minutes due to padding at the Minot stop

18 minutes lost between Rugby and Devils Lake, presumably due to the track raise construction (I was asleep)

43 minutes lost between Grand Forks and Fargo. 20 due to slow track, 25 more because we arrived in Fargo at the same time as #7 and had to wait for them to pull clear of the station.

No time lost between Fargo and St. Paul, made up 53 minutes at St. Paul to depart 65 minutes late. That is where I got off, so I can't say why it was two hours late again by Chicago.

All in all a very smooth run, with no mechanical problems or freight breakdowns. The main problems are:

1. Temporary slow orders related to track construction. These total around 40 minutes of time lost, and should be going away as we head into winter.

2. Permanent slow orders between Grand Forks and Fargo. All trains lose at least 20 minutes on this stretch, due to lowered speed limits on very rough track.

3. Freight congestion. This is worst on the long single track between Malta, MT and Williston, ND. Between Glasgow and Wolf Point we followed two freights and every available passing siding had a waiting westbound, leaving no sidings for us to pass the trains in front.

Freight traffic on the line is (by my estimation) about 50% grain, 25% intermodal (containers and trucks), 15% mixed manifest (boxcars, lumber, etc.), 5% coal, and 5% oil. At least in the western section the oil boom can't be blamed for the congestion. We did pass one westbound train of crude oil headed to a Tesoro refinery in Washington (per scanner chatter).

My suggestions for improvement:

1. Stop blaming BNSF. Their dispatchers do a pretty good job keeping #8 moving. Most stretches in Montana require steady 79 mph running with all green lights in order to avoid losing time. To me, that is too much to ask given the amount of freight traffic and limited number of passing sidings.

2. Trim ~45 minutes of padding from the western padded stops (Spokane, Whitefish, Shelby) and add ~45 minutes of schedule padding into Fargo. #7 has better distribution of schedule padding and so has fewer late endpoint arrivals despite experiencing the same delays en route.

3. Restore the track from Fargo to Grand Forks to 79 mph speed instead of the current 50 mph for much of the distance, or adjust the scheduled running time to reflect present speed limits.

4. Add 30-60 minutes to total running time, with most of that added in eastern MT and western ND. This is to reflect the reality of increased freight traffic on the line.

This was my first time traveling in sleeper, and my dad's first time on Amtrak. His only complaint was that rough track (especially in ND) made it difficult to sleep. Also, roomettes are very small.

~Mark


----------



## CHamilton

Mark,

Thanks for the detailed notes. I was on #7 that arrived in Seattle 45 minutes early yesterday morning. In fact, we had to wait for the Starlight to clear before we could back into King Street Station. I didn't keep track of our timekeeping as well as you did, but I know that we were 1+ hours down by Browning -- not sure why -- so no views of Glacier Park. But we were about 5 minutes early pulling into Spokane, so we'd made up the time by then.


----------



## slim chipley

Both #8s doing poorly today - 3hr 38min late out of W Glacier (rock slide near Everett WA) and 3hr 24min late out of Tomah  And the one hasn't even hit Minot yet where it could drop 4 more hours.


----------



## fairviewroad

The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time

in the other direction this morning.


----------



## joro

fairviewroad said:


> The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time
> 
> in the other direction this morning.


We have just been informed that tomorrow's EB out of msp has been switched to bustitution. Anyone know why? If time to chi isn't an issue, can you skip the bus and take the late train? Thanks in advance.

joro


----------



## JayPea

joro said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time
> 
> in the other direction this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> We have just been informed that tomorrow's EB out of msp has been switched to bustitution. Anyone know why? If time to chi isn't an issue, can you skip the bus and take the late train? Thanks in advance.
> 
> joro
Click to expand...

I don't know what Amtrak will do in your situation, but last year on a trip from Spokane to Seattle on the EB, the train was hours late into Spokane, and an on - time bus was provided. I had no connections to make in Seattle other than the one my head would make with the pillow in my hotel room :lol: and was able to take the train anyway. So it can be done.


----------



## joro

JayPea said:


> joro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time
> 
> in the other direction this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> We have just been informed that tomorrow's EB out of msp has been switched to bustitution. Anyone know why? If time to chi isn't an issue, can you skip the bus and take the late train? Thanks in advance.
> 
> joro
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know what Amtrak will do in your situation, but last year on a trip from Spokane to Seattle on the EB, the train was hours late into Spokane, and an on - time bus was provided. I had no connections to make in Seattle other than the one my head would make with the pillow in my hotel room :lol: and was able to take the train anyway. So it can be done.
Click to expand...

My only time is making the LSL at 9:30PM so I guess it either the bus or catch a flight. With the status putting the eb four hrs late into Minot, I can write a very late train off. Thanks.


----------



## AlanB

joro said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> joro said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have just been informed that tomorrow's EB out of msp has been switched to bustitution. Anyone know why? If time to chi isn't an issue, can you skip the bus and take the late train? Thanks in advance.
> 
> joro
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what Amtrak will do in your situation, but last year on a trip from Spokane to Seattle on the EB, the train was hours late into Spokane, and an on - time bus was provided. I had no connections to make in Seattle other than the one my head would make with the pillow in my hotel room :lol: and was able to take the train anyway. So it can be done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My only time is making the LSL at 9:30PM so I guess it either the bus or catch a flight. With the status putting the eb four hrs late into Minot, I can write a very late train off. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Yes, in your case you must take the bus. If you wait for the train, and it's so late that you miss the Lake Shore, you are on your own. Amtrak will not put you up in Chicago for the night on their dime.

And yes, you'll get a refund for the sleeper fare that you paid for the EB.


----------



## Trogdor

fairviewroad said:


> The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time
> 
> in the other direction this morning.


The start of the detour was pushed back a few days. 8(14) made all regular stops.


----------



## fairviewroad

Trogdor said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> The detours in ND are starting. Looks like 8 (14) lost almost two hours on the detour between Minot and Fargo last night. OTOH, 7 (15) didn't lose any time
> 
> in the other direction this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> The start of the detour was pushed back a few days. 8(14) made all regular stops.
Click to expand...

OK, I was basing that on the original Amtrak service alert notice and the fact that those stops were shown as skipped on Amtrak Status Maps (though

they have since been added back). Looks like Amtrak has removed the service alert notice entirely...makes me wonder if they themselves even know

what's going on.


----------



## CHamilton

The LSA on #8 a couple of days ago said that she had heard that the detours will start approximately 10/25.


----------



## OBS

It is unfortunate that we have such a verbal silence from the direction of EB_OBS. I sincerely hope he hasn't been silenced by the "Powers" above him.


----------



## AlanB

OBS said:


> It is unfortunate that we have such a verbal silence from the direction of EB_OBS. I sincerely hope he hasn't been silenced by the "Powers" above him.


While I suppose that anything is possible, after all this is Amtrak, I think it rather unlikely.


----------



## EB_OBS

OBS said:


> It is unfortunate that we have such a verbal silence from the direction of EB_OBS. I sincerely hope he hasn't been silenced by the "Powers" above him.


I'm still here. Besides a few weeks vacation in August and September I've done some traveling for training in Seattle and Portland so I've been away a bit. Mostly though it's just been a really busy season with my family. I have a 10 years old and a 9 years old who are each in several activities so time at the computer has been minimal.

It seems the detour for track work has indeed been moved back a week. Besides a few anomalies I think the EB has been running better since mid-September. I hope anyone who might have been on board any late trains still had a good time and enjoyed the ride.

EB_OBS


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

anir dendroica said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Things aren't looking up for the EB, that's for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Not too bad tonight:
> 
> #8(6) arrived Chicago 36 minutes late
> 
> #7(6) arrived Seattle 23 minutes early
> 
> #8(7) 50 minutes late at Devils Lake, could make that up by Chicago if no further delays
> 
> #7(7) on time (4 minutes late) at Libby, MT
> 
> All of today's departures (#7, #8, #28) are on time.
Click to expand...

OK, sounds good.



anir dendroica said:


> My report from #8(12).
> 
> On time out of PDX/SEA. 15 minutes early into Spokane, 13 minutes early into Whitefish, 25 minutes early into Shelby, MT. That's almost an hour of padding that should be moved farther east.
> 
> 20 minutes lost between Havre and Malta due to two long 25 mph sections (tie replacement project)
> 
> 14 minutes lost between Malta and Glasgow, stopped to meet a grain train
> 
> 22 minutes lost between Glasgow and Wolf Point, stopped to meet a grain train, then slowing to follow a Z train (priority intermodal) and a stack train.
> 
> 16 minutes lost between Wolf Point and Williston, as the two trains ahead of us pulled into sidings to let us pass.
> 
> No delays between Williston and Minot, made up 20 minutes due to padding at the Minot stop
> 
> 18 minutes lost between Rugby and Devils Lake, presumably due to the track raise construction (I was asleep)
> 
> 43 minutes lost between Grand Forks and Fargo. 20 due to slow track, 25 more because we arrived in Fargo at the same time as #7 and had to wait for them to pull clear of the station.
> 
> No time lost between Fargo and St. Paul, made up 53 minutes at St. Paul to depart 65 minutes late. That is where I got off, so I can't say why it was two hours late again by Chicago.
> 
> All in all a very smooth run, with no mechanical problems or freight breakdowns. The main problems are:
> 
> 1. Temporary slow orders related to track construction. These total around 40 minutes of time lost, and should be going away as we head into winter.
> 
> 2. Permanent slow orders between Grand Forks and Fargo. All trains lose at least 20 minutes on this stretch, due to lowered speed limits on very rough track.
> 
> 3. Freight congestion. This is worst on the long single track between Malta, MT and Williston, ND. Between Glasgow and Wolf Point we followed two freights and every available passing siding had a waiting westbound, leaving no sidings for us to pass the trains in front.
> 
> Freight traffic on the line is (by my estimation) about 50% grain, 25% intermodal (containers and trucks), 15% mixed manifest (boxcars, lumber, etc.), 5% coal, and 5% oil. At least in the western section the oil boom can't be blamed for the congestion. We did pass one westbound train of crude oil headed to a Tesoro refinery in Washington (per scanner chatter).
> 
> My suggestions for improvement:
> 
> 1. Stop blaming BNSF. Their dispatchers do a pretty good job keeping #8 moving. Most stretches in Montana require steady 79 mph running with all green lights in order to avoid losing time. To me, that is too much to ask given the amount of freight traffic and limited number of passing sidings.
> 
> 2. Trim ~45 minutes of padding from the western padded stops (Spokane, Whitefish, Shelby) and add ~45 minutes of schedule padding into Fargo. #7 has better distribution of schedule padding and so has fewer late endpoint arrivals despite experiencing the same delays en route.
> 
> 3. Restore the track from Fargo to Grand Forks to 79 mph speed instead of the current 50 mph for much of the distance, or adjust the scheduled running time to reflect present speed limits.
> 
> 4. Add 30-60 minutes to total running time, with most of that added in eastern MT and western ND. This is to reflect the reality of increased freight traffic on the line.
> 
> This was my first time traveling in sleeper, and my dad's first time on Amtrak. His only complaint was that rough track (especially in ND) made it difficult to sleep. Also, roomettes are very small.
> 
> ~Mark


Great analysis. I think that the 50 mph section and poor distribution of padding are bigger problems than freight traffic.


----------



## OBS

EB_OBS said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is unfortunate that we have such a verbal silence from the direction of EB_OBS. I sincerely hope he hasn't been silenced by the "Powers" above him.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still here. Besides a few weeks vacation in August and September I've done some traveling for training in Seattle and Portland so I've been away a bit. Mostly though it's just been a really busy season with my family. I have a 10 years old and a 9 years old who are each in several activities so time at the computer has been minimal.
> 
> It seems the detour for track work has indeed been moved back a week. Besides a few anomalies I think the EB has been running better since mid-September. I hope anyone who might have been on board any late trains still had a good time and enjoyed the ride.
> 
> EB_OBS
Click to expand...

Glad all is well, thanks for responding.


----------



## montana mike

Just finished another RT on the EB yesterday. Eastbound last week the EB was 2 1/2 hours late arriving in CHI and westbound we arrived in WFH 1 hour 50 minutes behind schedule. I took good notes on the causes, which mirror much of the above analysis: BNSF track work, slow orders in areas where there is no work, but the tracks are in bad shape (especially in eastern MT, there is a section that appears to be actually getting worse, since we crawled at 10 mph for perhaps 5 miles), heavy freight traffic, heavy passenger loading at Williston (both times we were at the station almost 15 minutes) and the usual hour lost between Grand Forks and Devils Lake due to the poor track conditions and resulting slow orders. I note with dismay the eastbound EB is almost 4 hours late today as it makes its way into MN this AM-bummer. I spoke with the car attendant and one of the conductors they both stated the 2+ hour delays are now the norm into CHI (the attendant said he had not been on any on time arrivals the entire summer) and an increasing number of westbound EBs are now arriving late into SEA and PDX, which used to be a rarity. Both said that Amtrak will need to make a schedule adjustment at some point, especially eastbound, as the BNSF freight loadings continue to increase. My BNSF contact here in WFH has stated on several occasions that with energy related trains going up sharply over the next 12-18 months it will become increasingly difficult to maintain the old schedule from ND and points East. We got stuck behind one of the big tanker car freights for quite some time going east and chugged along at about 40 to 50 mph for miles and miles before the dispatcher was able to clear us thru. As was pointed out the detour has not yet happened, so I didn't get a chance to gauge if that would make any difference.

Different Note: I was on the CONO the day before, coming up from NOL and my train was caught right in the middle of the tornado outbreak in northern MS. Incredibly severe weather (very strong winds, torrential rain, continuous lightning and a tornado)! I actually watched the TVS signature on my iPhone just north of where we were stopped on the tracks-scary! When we resumed our trek northward hundreds of trees were down with many across the tracks. At first they just stopped, got out and attempted to move the trees away, but many were too big and they were too numerous, so the engine just literally "plowed" its way (at about 5 mph) thru perhaps a mile of almost complete devastation until we were past were the tornado had gone thru. Amazingly the couple grade crossings we passed were still intact and working, even though trees were down and nearby structures badly damaged or destroyed. We arrived in CHI about 2 hours late--but everyone on the train was safe.


----------



## anir dendroica

Looks like we got spammed...

On topic, there is a major blizzard forecast for northern Montana this Thursday-Saturday. The EB will probably experience major delays.

Mark


----------



## tomfuller

My most recent EB experience: Got on the eastbound EB in SPK 1:30 AM on May 16 arrived in CHI about 1 hour late due to track work near Tomah Wisconsin. Still had the time for a good meal in Chicago before getting on the LSL. I could have taken the Capitol Limited to Cleveland but didn't want to arrive in CLE at 3AM.

On the return trip, we arrived at the Cleveland station when they opened at 11PM after turning in the rental car about 9:30PM. $40 shuttle ride from Cleveland airport to CLE Amtrak.

The westbound CL arrived in Cleveland at dawn on May 29. The westbound LSL arrived about 20 minutes later. The sun was rising as we boarded the LSL after sitting all night in the Cleveland station. They held the eastbound LSL west of Cleveland to allow the 2 westbound trains to clear the station. We ate some lunch that I got in the Chicago station before we boarded the EB. We (only 2 of us) got off the EB at Cut Bank MT only 30 minutes late mostly due to the track wirk at Tomah. The June 1 Empire Builder was about 20 minutes late in CUT on June 1. 2 other people got on with us there. We arrived in SPK 35 minutes early on June 2. We were back in Bend Oregon in time for lunch.

I wish that Amtrak would "Try Harder" to get rental car agencies to serve their stations directly instead of having a cab ride to the airport for more than the cost of a days rental.

Little Cut Bank MT had a car waiting for me in the station gravel lot and the 1 day rental fee was less than 1 of my cab rides.


----------



## Blackwolf

tomfuller said:


> I wish that Amtrak would "Try Harder" to get rental car agencies to serve their stations directly instead of having a cab ride to the airport for more than the cost of a days rental.
> 
> Little Cut Bank MT had a car waiting for me in the station gravel lot and the 1 day rental fee was less than 1 of my cab rides.


Just a little off-topic from the whole thread, but I completely agree. The handful of times I've rented cars while on Amtrak trips, when an office is within about 15 miles of the station and is within their business hours, Enterprise has been fantastic. Their motto of "We'll Pick You Up!" works every time. They will drop you off too.

But having a rental office affiliated with more stations is really the way things should go.


----------



## TraneMan

Blackwolf said:


> tomfuller said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish that Amtrak would "Try Harder" to get rental car agencies to serve their stations directly instead of having a cab ride to the airport for more than the cost of a days rental.
> 
> Little Cut Bank MT had a car waiting for me in the station gravel lot and the 1 day rental fee was less than 1 of my cab rides.
> 
> 
> 
> Just a little off-topic from the whole thread, but I completely agree. The handful of times I've rented cars while on Amtrak trips, when an office is within about 15 miles of the station and is within their business hours, Enterprise has been fantastic. Their motto of "We'll Pick You Up!" works every time. They will drop you off too.
> 
> But having a rental office affiliated with more stations is really the way things should go.
Click to expand...

Is Amtrak the ones who contact rental places to offer car rental waiting at the station?? I would of think it's the rental themselves who would offer the service.. Look at Whitefish, there are a couple of rental company that will have a car waiting at the station for you.


----------



## Blackwolf

TraneMan said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a little off-topic from the whole thread, but I completely agree. The handful of times I've rented cars while on Amtrak trips, when an office is within about 15 miles of the station and is within their business hours, Enterprise has been fantastic. Their motto of "We'll Pick You Up!" works every time. They will drop you off too.
> 
> But having a rental office affiliated with more stations is really the way things should go.
> 
> 
> 
> Is Amtrak the ones who contact rental places to offer car rental waiting at the station?? I would of think it's the rental themselves who would offer the service.. Look at Whitefish, there are a couple of rental company that will have a car waiting at the station for you.
Click to expand...

No, Amtrak does not have such a concierge service (though that would be a nice touch! Never happening, unfortunately.) I simply make the reservation through Enterprise (and through the AGR portal in order to get the nice extra points) and have them ready to meet the train. All Enterprise offices are independently operated, and every one I've dealt with is very accommodating. I don't mean to sound like an advertisement, but I've been burned by other rental agencies like Hertz (they can *hurtz* a lot!) and Avis, and Enterprise has been fantastic for years.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Most EB trains seem to be doing better now. See: http://www.dixielandsoftware.com/


----------



## montana mike

Yup--most are only running 60-90 minutes late into CHI now, with only an occasional slip to 2-3 hours late. One train was actually on time last week leaving Milwaukee, only to get stuck behind a Metra train and ended up 33 minutes late into Union station. Could be a lot worse now--The main reason, according to my BNSF guy, is they have pretty much stopped construction until April now.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Yup--most are only running 60-90 minutes late into CHI now, with only an occasional slip to 2-3 hours late. One train was actually on time last week leaving Milwaukee, only to get stuck behind a Metra train and ended up 33 minutes late into Union station. Could be a lot worse now--The main reason, according to my BNSF guy, is they have pretty much stopped construction until April now.


So after they resume construction, how long will it be before it is done? I hope it is done with all possible haste because not only will it reduce immediate delays, but long-term delays caused by track problems.


----------



## Ispolkom

Trains reported (behind a pay wall, unfortunately) that BNSF is diverting most container trains off the Northern Corridor because of increased traffic to and from the Bakken field. Instead, the container trains will travel to Chicago via Lincoln and Alliance, Nebraska, taking what the article called the "central corridor." This might help the Empire Builder, I guess, at least until the expected traffic builds up on the Hi Line.


----------



## montana mike

Simple law of physics here--One can only put so much "stuff" in a given space at any time. The construction on the hi-line is scheduled to be completed in late 2014. The increase in tanker trains is actually slightly ahead of schedule and is not that weather dependent, so 2013 could be very interesting.


----------



## johnny.menhennet

montana mike said:


> Simple law of physics here--One can only put so much "stuff" in a given space at any time.	The construction on the hi-line is scheduled to be completed in late 2014.	The increase in tanker trains is actually slightly ahead of schedule and is not that weather dependent, so 2013 could be very interesting.


What specific constructiona re we talking about here? I'm just curious, apart from fixing aging tracks to remove slow orders and speed up the route, what else is in store? Complete double-tracking all the way to the Twin Cities from North Dakota, or anything else along those lines? I know of the trackbed raising int he vicinity of Devil's Lake, but thought that the timeframe on that was sooner.


----------



## jebr

johnny.menhennet said:


> Complete double-tracking all the way to the Twin Cities from North Dakota, or anything else along those lines?


One can hope for this. I'm specifically looking forward to double-tracking near the Twin Cities (Big Lake - Becker.) Sets the stage for expanding the Northstar to St. Cloud.


----------



## montana mike

BNSF is in the process of replacing literally millions of worn out wooden ties with concrete ties in certain areas, there are several hundred miles of track beds that will be undergoing significant upgrades (in order to get trains back up to decent speeds--anyone who has taken the EB the past 12 months knows what I am referring to). There are a number of grade crossing improvements planned for the next two years (modernize equipment). I do not think double tracks for any significant length are in this package at all. I do know there will be additional sidings and spurs created in both eastern MT and ND due to the increased needs for the energy and agriculture traffic though. BNSF is hiring a lot of construction and maintenance people to support this effort


----------



## anir dendroica

I don't think there are many permanent slow orders in eastern Montana, so "getting back up to speed" is more a matter of finishing construction so the work-related slow orders go away. (For this reason I would anticipate decent OTP from now until May with the exception of weather events.) There appears to be a rule that track is rated for 25 mph for a certain amount of time after tie replacement, allowing the track to settle and inspecting for any alignment defects. With multiple sections of 10 miles or so seeing new ties at any time, that can really slow the EB down - both due to direct loss of time and waiting for freights that are also moving at 25 mph.

Where the EB could really use some more speed is the section from Minot to Fargo, large portions of which are 50 mph or 60 mph and rough enough that even that feels a bit too fast. I wonder if BNSF has plans to improve this section back to mainline standards now that the Devils Lake problem is solved? In particular the stretch from Grand Forks to Fargo needs work in order to get back to the posted timetable.

Mark


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

anir dendroica said:


> I don't think there are many permanent slow orders in eastern Montana, so "getting back up to speed" is more a matter of finishing construction so the work-related slow orders go away. (For this reason I would anticipate decent OTP from now until May with the exception of weather events.) There appears to be a rule that track is rated for 25 mph for a certain amount of time after tie replacement, allowing the track to settle and inspecting for any alignment defects. With multiple sections of 10 miles or so seeing new ties at any time, that can really slow the EB down - both due to direct loss of time and waiting for freights that are also moving at 25 mph.
> 
> Where the EB could really use some more speed is the section from Minot to Fargo, large portions of which are 50 mph or 60 mph and rough enough that even that feels a bit too fast. I wonder if BNSF has plans to improve this section back to mainline standards now that the Devils Lake problem is solved? In particular the stretch from Grand Forks to Fargo needs work in order to get back to the posted timetable.
> 
> Mark


How rough is it now? It wasn't too rough when I took it a year ago.


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## anir dendroica

Swadian Hardcore said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there are many permanent slow orders in eastern Montana, so "getting back up to speed" is more a matter of finishing construction so the work-related slow orders go away. (For this reason I would anticipate decent OTP from now until May with the exception of weather events.) There appears to be a rule that track is rated for 25 mph for a certain amount of time after tie replacement, allowing the track to settle and inspecting for any alignment defects. With multiple sections of 10 miles or so seeing new ties at any time, that can really slow the EB down - both due to direct loss of time and waiting for freights that are also moving at 25 mph.
> 
> Where the EB could really use some more speed is the section from Minot to Fargo, large portions of which are 50 mph or 60 mph and rough enough that even that feels a bit too fast. I wonder if BNSF has plans to improve this section back to mainline standards now that the Devils Lake problem is solved? In particular the stretch from Grand Forks to Fargo needs work in order to get back to the posted timetable.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> How rough is it now? It wasn't too rough when I took it a year ago.
Click to expand...

I shared a roomette with my dad on the EB last month - my first time in sleeper and his first time on Amtrak. The rough ride, mainly in ND, was his #1 complaint - bad enough that he couldn't get much sleep and therefore doesn't consider the train a good alternative to flying. I slept through most of it on the top bunk but did awaken with a mighty shake a few times praying we stayed on the track. It seemed like the worst part was the last 30 or so miles into Fargo. Once we hit Fargo it was amazingly smooth on the double track mainline the rest of the way to MSP.

Eastern Montana also has some rough spots - mainly at switches and crossovers but occasionally for no apparent reason. I'm hoping the tie replacement will make that section smoother.

Mark


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## TraneMan

There was a very rough spot somewhere between WPT and WTN.. We were having dinner, and there was a good bounce! I thought we were going to derail for a moment!!


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## Swadian Hardcore

anir dendroica said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there are many permanent slow orders in eastern Montana, so "getting back up to speed" is more a matter of finishing construction so the work-related slow orders go away. (For this reason I would anticipate decent OTP from now until May with the exception of weather events.) There appears to be a rule that track is rated for 25 mph for a certain amount of time after tie replacement, allowing the track to settle and inspecting for any alignment defects. With multiple sections of 10 miles or so seeing new ties at any time, that can really slow the EB down - both due to direct loss of time and waiting for freights that are also moving at 25 mph.
> 
> Where the EB could really use some more speed is the section from Minot to Fargo, large portions of which are 50 mph or 60 mph and rough enough that even that feels a bit too fast. I wonder if BNSF has plans to improve this section back to mainline standards now that the Devils Lake problem is solved? In particular the stretch from Grand Forks to Fargo needs work in order to get back to the posted timetable.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> How rough is it now? It wasn't too rough when I took it a year ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I shared a roomette with my dad on the EB last month - my first time in sleeper and his first time on Amtrak. The rough ride, mainly in ND, was his #1 complaint - *bad enough that he couldn't get much sleep and therefore doesn't consider the train a good alternative to flying.* I slept through most of it on the top bunk but did awaken with a mighty shake a few times praying we stayed on the track. It seemed like the worst part was the last 30 or so miles into Fargo. Once we hit Fargo it was amazingly smooth on the double track mainline the rest of the way to MSP.
> 
> Eastern Montana also has some rough spots - mainly at switches and crossovers but occasionally for no apparent reason. I'm hoping the tie replacement will make that section smoother.
> 
> Mark
Click to expand...

Ooh, that's no good! If it;s that bad then they better get the construction done even if it means temporarily delaying the EB. I'd much rather have a late ride than a late AND rough ride!


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## NW cannonball

johnny.menhennet said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Simple law of physics here--One can only put so much "stuff" in a given space at any time.	The construction on the hi-line is scheduled to be completed in late 2014.	The increase in tanker trains is actually slightly ahead of schedule and is not that weather dependent, so 2013 could be very interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> What specific constructiona re we talking about here? I'm just curious, apart from fixing aging tracks to remove slow orders and speed up the route, what else is in store? Complete double-tracking all the way to the Twin Cities from North Dakota, or anything else along those lines? I know of the trackbed raising int he vicinity of Devil's Lake, but thought that the timeframe on that was sooner.
Click to expand...

Minot-Grand Forks -- possible benefit to the BNSF. Grand Forks - Fargo - not so much. Back in 1988 the track from Fargo to Grand Forks was bad - not better now - for two reasons - One - no significant freight on the line. Two - line runs in the valley (known for flooding) of the Red River - with lots of insecure alluvial underpinnings. I clearly remember being in the upper berth through this stretch (Fargo-Grand Forks) back in 1988 it was bad then - it's never going to get better.

Eastern Montana and maybe parts of the main Fargo - MSP - BNSF has incentive to fix. Maybe even Minot - Grand Forks. Fargo - Grand Forks - never.


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## Phil S

_Eastern Montana and maybe parts of the main Fargo - MSP - BNSF has incentive to fix. Maybe even Minot - Grand Forks. Fargo - Grand Forks - never._

I thought the Devil's Lake rebuild was supposed to deal with this. Or is the section being rebuilt just a part of the problem?


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## NW cannonball

Phil S said:


> _Eastern Montana and maybe parts of the main Fargo - MSP - BNSF has incentive to fix. Maybe even Minot - Grand Forks. Fargo - Grand Forks - never._
> 
> I thought the Devil's Lake rebuild was supposed to deal with this. Or is the section being rebuilt just a part of the problem?


The Devil's Lake project will - we hope - keep the BNSF's line from Minot to Grand Forks viable. The line from Grand Forks to Fargo is probably not of much concern to BNSF.

Does anyone here know how much freight moves on the line from Fargo to Grand Forks? I'm guessing - probably not much.

The EB has been doing this 2-sides-of-the-triangle routing for many years - but the Fargo-Grand Forks leg is by far the weakest.

Also, more OT, the winter storm in eastern Montana doesn't seem to have been a big problem


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## anir dendroica

NW cannonball said:


> Phil S said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Eastern Montana and maybe parts of the main Fargo - MSP - BNSF has incentive to fix. Maybe even Minot - Grand Forks. Fargo - Grand Forks - never._
> 
> I thought the Devil's Lake rebuild was supposed to deal with this. Or is the section being rebuilt just a part of the problem?
> 
> 
> 
> The Devil's Lake project will - we hope - keep the BNSF's line from Minot to Grand Forks viable. The line from Grand Forks to Fargo is probably not of much concern to BNSF.
> 
> Does anyone here know how much freight moves on the line from Fargo to Grand Forks? I'm guessing - probably not much.
> 
> The EB has been doing this 2-sides-of-the-triangle routing for many years - but the Fargo-Grand Forks leg is by far the weakest.
> 
> Also, more OT, the winter storm in eastern Montana doesn't seem to have been a big problem
Click to expand...

I could imagine BNSF implementing directional running as a way to deal with oil traffic - westbounds via New Rockford, eastbounds via Grand Forks or vice versa. That would force one of the EB trains to run "against the flow", but it would restore the Grand Forks-Fargo leg to mainline status.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why don't they just reroute the EB to the Surrey Cutoff? Best side of thetriangle solves these problems. Shorter distance, too. Also, dosen't the EB have to backtrack into GFK?


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## anir dendroica

There is no backtracking into GFK. The station is on the wye that connects the N-S Hillsboro sub (GFK-Fargo) to the E-W Devils Lake sub (GFK-Devils Lake).

As for the Surrey re-route, at one point it seemed almost inevitable given the rising level of Devils Lake, but with the recent repairs the current route is safe. The Surrey line is shorter but not really any faster because a) it has a ton of freight traffic, and b) there is a section of 10 mph track to get from the Surrey line to the Fargo station. The main reason for the choice of route is demographic. The current route serves Grand Forks (pop. 52,631), Devils Lake (7,141), and Rugby (2,886). The Surrey line would serve only New Rockford (1,388).

The story is that the line through Grand Forks was the original GN mainline, which served as a nucleus for population centers. The Surrey cutoff was built later as a short-cut, but as the state was settled at that point and the CP track was nearby it failed to attract any significant towns. Pass-through travelers like myself would prefer sleeping on the smoother Surrey line, but North Dakotans are very attached to the Grand Forks routing, as evidenced by the ND senators' recent successful lobbying to keep the line above water.

Mark



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why don't they just reroute the EB to the Surrey Cutoff? Best side of thetriangle solves these problems. Shorter distance, too. Also, dosen't the EB have to backtrack into GFK?


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## NW cannonball

anir dendroica said:


> There is no backtracking into GFK. The station is on the wye that connects the N-S Hillsboro sub (GFK-Fargo) to the E-W Devils Lake sub (GFK-Devils Lake).
> 
> As for the Surrey re-route, at one point it seemed almost inevitable given the rising level of Devils Lake, but with the recent repairs the current route is safe. The Surrey line is shorter but not really any faster because a) it has a ton of freight traffic, and b) there is a section of 10 mph track to get from the Surrey line to the Fargo station. The main reason for the choice of route is demographic. The current route serves Grand Forks (pop. 52,631), Devils Lake (7,141), and Rugby (2,886). The Surrey line would serve only New Rockford (1,388).
> 
> The story is that the line through Grand Forks was the original GN mainline, which served as a nucleus for population centers. The Surrey cutoff was built later as a short-cut, but as the state was settled at that point and the CP track was nearby it failed to attract any significant towns. Pass-through travelers like myself would prefer sleeping on the smoother Surrey line, but North Dakotans are very attached to the Grand Forks routing, as evidenced by the ND senators' recent successful lobbying to keep the line above water.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't they just reroute the EB to the Surrey Cutoff? Best side of thetriangle solves these problems. Shorter distance, too. Also, dosen't the EB have to backtrack into GFK?
Click to expand...

I was just now composing a post - but you anir made the major points quite clear.

The Fargo - Grand Forks line has a lot of problems - including "compressible soils" and being in a "20 year floodplain" - or maybe 10-year floodplain.

And has little freight traffic.

The main reason for the EB to take this slow route is the traffic at Grand Forks -- not a lot.


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