# You know Amtrak's "kindergarten walk" is ridiculous when



## Barciur (Apr 7, 2014)

This is an excert from the article found here: http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-to-know-about-boarding-an-amtrak-train 

I find this to be an excellent article as it is a humorous way of talking about something that seems rather bizarre.

Fair use brief:



> In general, once one knows on which track a train will arrive, one goes to the adjacent platform and waits. When the train arrives, the doors will open and people who need to disembark will get off. Then you go through the open door and hop on the train. This process is seen at train stations around the world, including intercity trains everywhere from Brussels to Shanghai and mass transit trains such as the 1, 2, 3, A, C, and E New York City Subway lines at Penn Station and WMATA's Red Line at Union Station in Washington, DC.
> At smaller stations such as New Haven, New Carrollton, or New Rochelle, Amtrak uses the same boarding procedure used by foreign intercity railroad operators and by commuter rail and mass transit rail systems in the United States.
> 
> This makes sense, since that's how one boards a train.
> ...



Thoughts on the boarding procedures at Amtrak's large stations? Are there actual good reasons for this to be in place? I must say, I always found it very weird coming from Europe, but not really as inconveniencing. I guess if I ran into the station and wanted to buy a ticket on board then it would be an issue, because you can't if you depart from those stations.


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## boxcarsyix (Apr 7, 2014)

Link to an article on insanity provided by Trainorders:

http://www.vox.com/2014/3/31/5563600/everything-you-need-to-know-about-boarding-an-amtrak-train


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## PerRock (Apr 7, 2014)

I thought I read a comment from Amtrak once that said they don't let people onto the platforms because they're to small for the large crowds they expect to have on them.

peter


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 7, 2014)

Barciur said:


> > However, at larger stations, Amtrak chooses to ignore 150 years of accumulated human wisdom about boarding trains. So at Boston's South Station, New York's Penn Station, Philadelphia's 30th Street Station, and Washington's Union Station, people wishing to board intercity trains must go through a more elaborate process. You wait for your track to be called and then need to queue up with each passenger presenting a ticket to an Amtrak staff member before you are allowed onto a platform. This is roughly how one boards an airplane in all countries, but it is not normally how one boards a train.
> 
> 
> Thoughts on the boarding procedures at Amtrak's large stations? Are there actual good reasons for this to be in place? I must say, I always found it very weird coming from Europe, but not really as inconveniencing. I guess if I ran into the station and wanted to buy a ticket on board then it would be an issue, because you can't if you depart from those stations.


I find the New York Penn process a genuine clusterfork. The only reason I figure the locals don't mind it is because they simply ignore Amtrak's convoluted boarding process and just do their own thing, occasionally playing _catch me if you can_ with the AmPoFiveOh. I've never seen the "wait...wait...wait...*RUN!!!*...queue...queue...queue...*RUN!!!*" nonsense anywhere else in the world. It would seem that whenever Amtrak has enough control to do whatever they want they take their queues cues from the US airline industry rather than international passenger rail norms. Instead of taking advantage of quick and simple boarding that train travel can provide they make it feel more like you're boarding a flight. Although I have been known to single out NYP for derision the truth is that are many stations where Amtrak has trouble making the boarding experience quick and easy. Even here in San Antonio where the Texas Eagle is right there in front of everyone with no physical obstacles and no other trains competing for platform access. If you arrive early you'll be held back until just a few minutes before departure when the conductor will force everyone to line up and be processed one by one through a imaginary "gate" before they can approach the train itself. At which point you almost need to rush to reach your car and get completely situated before the train starts moving.


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## SarahZ (Apr 7, 2014)

We had a similar discussion here - http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/57734-does-amtrak-know-how-trains-work/ - just in case anyone wants to peruse the points made in that thread. It was based on a different article.


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## FriskyFL (Apr 7, 2014)

I refuse to line up like a prisoner in a chain gang. Obtaining the services of a Redcap is the best $5 I can spend.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 7, 2014)

FriskyFL said:


> I refuse to line up like a prisoner in a chain gang.


A wee bit overstated, IYAM.


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## CoachSlumber (Apr 7, 2014)

Reminds me that when I was a kid in NY in the '70s, of course they had no restrictions, and I found a way to get the track number before the passengers. I would go to Penn Station just to look at the Broadway before it left, biding my time before I actually got to ride it. Sometimes the porter would let us on to look at the rooms--generally the Slumbercoach, since that it is what I was destined to ride. Back then they still cooked with logs, so the smell before the traditional 4:55 departure was delicious.


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## FriskyFL (Apr 7, 2014)

fairviewroad said:


> FriskyFL said:
> 
> 
> > I refuse to line up like a prisoner in a chain gang.
> ...


No, on second thought, prison riot would be a better description, at least at NYP. My DW was almost shoved down an escalator several years ago. Chain gang would be at WAS or CHI.


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## VentureForth (Apr 7, 2014)

This article was specific to the NEC, but in fact the Kindergarten Walk is used across the country. NYP is the only station that I can think of that has platform space limitations.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 7, 2014)

FriskyFL said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > FriskyFL said:
> ...


I see. So people waiting in line for an Amtrak train in Chicago and Washington are physically shackled to each other and are at risk of deadly force if they attempt to step out of line? Gotcha. Methinks someone just doesn't like lines, which is a perfectly reasonable position to take. But hyperbole doesn't help the cause. JMHO.


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## Ryan (Apr 7, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> This article was specific to the NEC, but in fact the Kindergarten Walk is used across the country. NYP is the only station that I can think of that has platform space limitations.


Washington's platforms are woefully insufficient.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 7, 2014)

In all honesty Kindergarten walk is the best description in most places. It's not that I don't like lines, I don't like being told exactly where to stand, exactly when to walk, etc. - it seems when the station agent simply says "coach passengers please proceed to location 5" that people end up where they need to be.

NYP gets a little tricky... I'm not exactly sure what the best solution would be. It's a pretty busy place.


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## rusty spike (Apr 7, 2014)

Traditions die hard and Amtrak's policy of queing passengers by class is a carryover from passenger trains bak "in the day". All big union passenger terminals, be it New York, St. Louis, Kansas City and LA quued passengers at the same gate everyday--coach and Pullman pax in separate lines.

LAUS is comical today as Metrolink pax walk past Amtrak pax lined up behind the old Gate E & F (which are scheduled to be removed). to do their kindergarten walk. I see absolutely no reasaon for this at LA. Their platforms are plenty wide and well marked for the appropriate train. Nobody knows what Amtrak will do with the coach pax when they take their "gate" away. Of course the sleeper pax have the Metro Lounge.


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## Barciur (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm not familiar with Washington's platforms, but are they really that much narrower than European ones where nobody's ever heard of restrictions as such?

Here's an example from Warsaw to compare:


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 7, 2014)

CoachSlumber said:


> Reminds me that when I was a kid in NY in the '70s...


Sometimes it seems like the 1970's were the last decade when US citizens were still allowed (and expected) to determine their own fate. You saw it in the big city and I saw it in a remote town where I was free to roam the switching yards and climb all over the hardware until it was time to go home. If I hurt myself I kept it to myself because I knew I'd be the one blamed for it, not the railroad. When the 1980's rolled around we started marching down the long road to Nancy's nanny state. Instead of protecting us from the actions of others our society chose to spend most of its time and effort trying to protect us from ourselves. Which is just about the last thing I'd expect a pro-freedom society to be worrying about.



TVRM610 said:


> NYP gets a little tricky... I'm not exactly sure what the best solution would be. It's a pretty busy place.


How about calmly checking tickets before it's time to board? How about calmly checking tickets on the train after boarding? NYP is a station where you're expected to stand around waiting for the carefully managed signage to update and then *RUSH! RUSH! RUSH!* with the rest of the clumsy mob at the last possible moment to your train. Only to be held up by indifferent gatekeepers as you approach some arbitrary choke point that slows the mob's mad dash into mad crawl. As you descend further and further down a packed escalator your stress level rises higher and higher. Meanwhile folks in the know are using redcaps or sneaking around the lower levels of the basement and onto their trains. Is this really the best solution anyone could come up with?



rusty spike said:


> LAUS is comical today as Metrolink pax walk past Amtrak pax lined up behind the old Gate E & F (which are scheduled to be removed). to do their kindergarten walk. I see absolutely no reasaon for this at LA. Their platforms are plenty wide and well marked for the appropriate train. Nobody knows what Amtrak will do with the coach pax when they take their "gate" away.


The sooner Amtrak lets go of the kindergarten nonsense the better it will be for _almost_ everyone. If you're too young to know any better than to get hit by a train then your parent or guardian should be busy watching you, not Amtrak. If you're too old or clumsy or frail to avoid getting hit then maybe it's just your time to go. Amtrak shouldn't be in the "protecting you from yourself" business. If the courts need a new law to extricate Amtrak from that responsibility then so be it.


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## Ryan (Apr 7, 2014)

Barciur said:


> I'm not familiar with Washington's platforms, but are they really that much narrower than European ones where nobody's ever heard of restrictions as such?


Yes.

The platforms in WAS are less than half that wide.

They're also only accessed from the end closest to the station, creating a natural bottleneck.


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## mignyc (Apr 7, 2014)

NYP is my home station and I'd really love to know how to "sneak around in the basement" to board my train less stressfully!


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## tonys96 (Apr 7, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Barciur said:
> 
> 
> > > However, at larger stations, Amtrak chooses to ignore 150 years of accumulated human wisdom about boarding trains. So at Boston's South Station, New York's Penn Station, Philadelphia's 30th Street Station, and Washington's Union Station, people wishing to board intercity trains must go through a more elaborate process. You wait for your track to be called and then need to queue up with each passenger presenting a ticket to an Amtrak staff member before you are allowed onto a platform. This is roughly how one boards an airplane in all countries, but it is not normally how one boards a train.
> ...


The boarding at SAS is pretty silly.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 7, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > NYP gets a little tricky... I'm not exactly sure what the best solution would be. It's a pretty busy place.
> ...


I'm certain it's not the best solution. But NYP is just a crazy place. That's my point. There is no check point for NJ Transit trains but the crazy mad dash and stress points are still there. Actually it's less stressful for Amtrak since the check point creates a natural spacing on the escalators so you don't feel like you may be trampled.


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## PaulM (Apr 7, 2014)

Here's an example from Warsaw to compare:




Here's the much narrower Vienna Westbahnhof. No kindergarten walk here.






Here's the even narrower Salzburg Hbf. Still no queuing up.


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## neroden (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm glad that Matt Yglesias is still pushing this issue. Someone at Amtrak might actually listen; he's got a reasonably large megaphone. He's completely right, of course.


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## SubwayNut (Apr 8, 2014)

mignyc said:


> NYP is my home station and I'd really love to know how to "sneak around in the basement" to board my train less stressfully!


You wait for the track to be called and go one level down to the exit concourse underneath the main concourse and go down the stairs to your platform. Try it at your own risk.


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## FriskyFL (Apr 8, 2014)

Millions negotiate the NYC subway platforms daily without kindergarten walks.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 8, 2014)

FriskyFL said:


> Millions negotiate the NYC subway platforms daily without kindergarten walks.


I've never seen a kindergarten walk in NYC... I've just seen a checkpoint where an Amtrak staff member checks the tickets. As I have noted, the boarding process is not any easier on the NJT side where there is no checkpoint. The problem at NYP is the physical nature of the station is not designed to handle the crowds. Hopefully in the distant future if the Moynihan Project becomes reality this can be worked.


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## VentureForth (Apr 8, 2014)

Here'e s pic I took at WAS a long time ago. Other than being completely run down, rusted, and just blah, the platforms are plenty wide.

One thing you have to deal with in WAS and many other Amtrak stations are golf carts toting passengers and baggage - which I've never seen done in Japan.


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## Ryan (Apr 8, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Here'e s pic I took at WAS a long time ago. Other than being completely run down, rusted, and just blah, the platforms are plenty wide.


Repeated assertions do not make it any more true. Yes, a couple hundred feet from the station, past the end of the train where nobody ever goes they look nice and wide open.

Try walking down a platform when a crush loaded Penn Line train dumps 1200+ people onto one of those platforms and tell me they're wide enough.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 8, 2014)

In cities like Tokyo you have busy stations with crowded platforms and yet folks still manage to board and deboard without running into each other like a mob on the run. Maybe the issue with stations like NYP lies with the people who live there. You let them all on the platform at once and unlike other cities they'll just push each other onto the tracks as they make their way to the train or the exit or whatever.


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## FriskyFL (Apr 8, 2014)

TVRM610 said:


> FriskyFL said:
> 
> 
> > Millions negotiate the NYC subway platforms daily without kindergarten walks.
> ...


I didn't mean to imply that there was a K-walk at NYP. But there is a bottleneck at the gate escalators where the gate dragons check tickets, "people" pushing and shoving to get to the front of the line. My DW nearly took a tumble down the escalator when she was shoved from behind. So I'm no fan of these ineffective and pointless exercises.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 8, 2014)

Part of the problem with NYP is that trains are (especially in rush hours) not necessarily tracked much more than 10-15 minutes before boarding, and even if they are, it is possible or even likely that the train that was announced 10 minutes before boarding is sharing its platform with a train that arrived 15 minutes ago and thus the platform would have been far too crowded to accommodate the boarding passengers. New York Penn is a general mess because it was never built to handle the service it currently handles the way it handles it. And the way it handles it is the best possible way to handle the maximum amount of trains it can handle.

All trains entering or leaving New York Penn to the west have to negotiate a single two track choke point at A Interlocking. LIRR trains enter the station near that choke point from West Side Yard. Those trains have to be grouped in specific areas based on length or operator or route out of this mess (West Side Yards, East River Tunnels, North River Tunnels, or Empire Connection). These trains, in order to maintain the maximum number of trains in and out of this fustercluck, have to be emptied or boarded as fast as possible, despite the fact that only single level LIRR equipment, and NJT Arrow III, Comet IVs, and Comet Vs are properly designed to do so.

Amtrak's equipment is not so densely packed that it really needs center-doors or LIRR style doors, but the commuter stuff is. The Comet II and Comet MLV have absolutely terrible loading parameters. They take FOREVER to board and clear. NJT's pigheaded insistence on locomotive hauled trains means the bulk of their commuter fleet is far too slow to clear Penn's platforms well, either.

When you take all of these absurd but true realities into account, you realize that the NYP boarding procedure is a symptom of a much bigger problem, and not much can be done about it.

Now, as for other stations, I don't know them well enough to comment.


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## VentureForth (Apr 8, 2014)

RyanS said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Here'e s pic I took at WAS a long time ago. Other than being completely run down, rusted, and just blah, the platforms are plenty wide.
> ...


 That photo was actually taken from the end of the platform at the end where it begins to taper in. The image shows a pretty constant width to where it goes out of frame.

As for your reference to the Penn Line, it's a terminus. ALL the passengers are exiting to the South. The flow is unidirectional. Now, I don't know the dwell time before it turns back North, or if Amtrak is trying to load a train across the same platform at the same time, but for general boarding for Amtrak, the platforms they use are plenty big enough to handle the boarding passengers without submitting them to the kindergarten walk.

Now at Shinjuku Station in Tokyo, the platforms are a bit wider to accomodate commuters. Notice that nobody is carrying baggage nor is luggage being transported by golf carts:


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## TVRM610 (Apr 8, 2014)

FriskyFL said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > FriskyFL said:
> ...


Why do you think the crowds on the escalator would be better if there was not a check point? In fact the crowds and shoving would be worse. This is a fact that can be plainly seen on the NJ Transit side.

I agree that NYP is a problem... see GML's excellent explanation.


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## FriskyFL (Apr 8, 2014)

Assigned seating would eliminate much of the mad rush to be first on the platform. Or adopt the Southwest Airlines model. It doesn't need to be a Darwinian free for all at NYP. The technology exists. Only the will is lacking.


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## Ryan (Apr 8, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> That photo was actually taken from the end of the platform at the end where it begins to taper in. The image shows a pretty constant width to where it goes out of frame.
> 
> As for your reference to the Penn Line, it's a terminus. ALL the passengers are exiting to the South. The flow is unidirectional. Now, I don't know the dwell time before it turns back North, or if Amtrak is trying to load a train across the same platform at the same time, but for general boarding for Amtrak, the platforms they use are plenty big enough to handle the boarding passengers without submitting them to the kindergarten walk.


I know where that picture was taken from. I've taken pictures from there myself, and boarded trains there when my train was parked out past another train. That happens frequently in the evenings. I commuted through there daily for over 3 years, so I'm intimately familiar with the station.

If you can guarantee that you won't try to load and unload two different trains on either side of the platform, the width would be sufficient. But you can't always make that happen, and it would be completely impossible to manage without holding passengers in the station until the platform is clear and the train is ready to receive passengers.

I'm sorry that you don't like it and keep insisting that everything is fine, but it's obvious that you're painfully ignorant of the day to day operations that make the K-walk necessary at WAS.

That said, there is no reason for the gate dragons to check tickets and slow the boarding process once the platform is ready for boarding. Once the platform is ready, the doors should open and everyone should be free to head out there. That's how MARC trains board and it works just fine.


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## berliner (Apr 8, 2014)

Barciur said:


> I'm not familiar with Washington's platforms, but are they really that much narrower than European ones where nobody's ever heard of restrictions as such?
> 
> Here's an example from Warsaw to compare:


Yes, many big city American train platforms (NYP, LAX, CHI, to name but a few) are less than half that size...


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## trainman74 (Apr 8, 2014)

TVRM610 said:


> I've never seen a kindergarten walk in NYC...


The escorted walk from ClubAcela to the appropriate escalator might be labeled a "kindergarten walk" by some.


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## afigg (Apr 8, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Part of the problem with NYP is that trains are (especially in rush hours) not necessarily tracked much more than 10-15 minutes before boarding, and even if they are, it is possible or even likely that the train that was announced 10 minutes before boarding is sharing its platform with a train that arrived 15 minutes ago and thus the platform would have been far too crowded to accommodate the boarding passengers. New York Penn is a general mess because it was never built to handle the service it currently handles the way it handles it. And the way it handles it is the best possible way to handle the maximum amount of trains it can handle.


I agree with your assessment of the problems with the narrow platforms at NYP. I understand why Amtrak tries to control access at the top of the escalators. Platforms that can totally jammed if a full NJT train pulls in with a nearly full Amtrak train on the other side. Because of the bottlenecks presented by the platforms and access stairs/escalators, there is a need for crowd control for the Amtrak trains, specifically because Amtrak passengers are usually carrying or towing luggage while the commuter passengers are mostly not.

There is also the issue of people getting on the wrong train, hence screening them at the top of the escalator. Not just between Amtrak trains, but people who have a NJT ticket and don't understand that the Amtrak trains are a different service. Yes, Amtrak does not try to screen at the smaller stations on the NEC, but the sheer numbers boarding at NYP means they can cut down on passengers who get on the wrong train with just one or 2 people checking the tickets in advance.

As for WAS, the master plan for the station is for a complete do-over of the platforms and tracks with new wider platforms, mostly high level platforms, and more access points to the lower level tracks leading to the First St tunnel. With modern wide platforms, Amtrak may eventually change how they line up and screen passengers before letting them board. But it take many years before the reconstruction of the platforms and boarding areas at WAS is complete.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 9, 2014)

RyanS said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Here'e s pic I took at WAS a long time ago. Other than being completely run down, rusted, and just blah, the platforms are plenty wide.
> ...


Tell me about it. I do I'm part of the rush every day 

But WAS doesn't have the "kindergarten walk" so much as the gate dragons and the cattle lines that spill into the concourse, block it, and create a security hazard. If you're a sleeper passenger in the Club Acela, you might have them do a kindergarten walk from the east gate to the lower level platforms. Actually, having a guide is helpful if you're not familiar with the station, becuase you have to make a few turns to get to the right gates for the lower level tracks.


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## JoeBas (Apr 10, 2014)

MARC Rider said:


> But WAS doesn't have the "kindergarten walk" so much as the gate dragons and the cattle lines that spill into the concourse, block it, and create a security hazard. If you're a sleeper passenger in the Club Acela, you might have them do a kindergarten walk from the east gate to the lower level platforms. Actually, having a guide is helpful if you're not familiar with the station, becuase you have to make a few turns to get to the right gates for the lower level tracks.


I dunno... they have these newfangled things called "Signs" that could just tell people which way to go.

FWIW, last time I was in WAS I just walked right out the doors from Club Acela down to the platforms a few times on my own, and back, and was never questioned.


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## John Bredin (Apr 10, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> CoachSlumber said:
> 
> 
> > Reminds me that when I was a kid in NY in the '70s...
> ...


Most people think there's a happy medium between "protecting you from yourself" and "maybe its just your time to go." Also, most people don't invest with all sorts of portentious socio-political meaning the fact that "we" don't leave everyone to fend for themselves.

After all, all stations (transit, commuter, or intercity) have signs, and many have information booths, attendants, etc. They've had them as long as there have been train stations, for a lot longer than since the 1970s. Most people don't think it would build moral fiber or reduce dependency to take away all such guidance and leave it 100% to every passenger to find his/her way to the right train. Is adding one more path-finding procedure a good idea? Maybe, maybe not. It's debatable. What it isn't is some conscious effort to wrap everyone in bubble wrap or to insult every person's intelligence.

Regardless of whether its a legal issue -- I doubt it is, or there wouldn't be stations without a "kindergarten walk" -- is it possible, just possible, that Amtrak, as operator of the trains and employer of their on-board and station crews, has decided that the balance of the inconveniences in both directions ("kindergarten walk" has costs, and so does "every man for himself") works out to providing some level of guidance greater than commuter or subway passengers?

I live in Chicago and commute by Metra. As people are fond of pointing out, Metra doesn't have the kindergarten walk at CUS, Amtrak does. However, Metra and Amtrak aren't the same. There's a difference between trains that run every hour or two and ones that run once a day, or even three times a week. And there's definitely a difference between commuters who take the same train daily, or even suburbanites who go downtown once a week, and people who travel infrequently who are taking the trip of a year or even a lifetime.

You may not be that person, and you may resent the inferred insult to your intelligence. But no system is designed for the high-information frequent user. 90% of the people going through a subway station on a given day don't even need the signage. They go through that station twice a day or more, and could find their platform in their sleep. Newsflash! That signage ain't there for them, and it isn't some sort of insult to the experienced riders nor a waste of money that it's there.

It's easy to say "check tickets on the train after boarding". (Oddly enough, Metra, or at least UP at Ogilvie, checks tickets at the mouth of the platform on busy outbound Saturday night trains.) But if someone riding a train for the first time in ten years gets on the wrong train that goes three days a week, it's a different matter.

And yes, Amtrak could tell him "tough toenails, you boarded the wrong train." But the crew, station personnel, etc. have to deal with the upset passenger rather than doing their various other duties. The "abandoned" passenger says "never again" and tells his friends -- or blog readers -- the same; whether that's "right" or fair is irrelevant. Its possible that through *experience* Amtrak (or even its predecessors: were there "kindergarten walks" at pre-Amtrak CUS?) reached a conclusion that an ounce of prevention in the form of the "kindergarten walk" outweighs those costs of letting infrequent travelers fend for themselves reaching infrequent trains.


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## neroden (Apr 10, 2014)

ASSuming that people developed an idiotic procedure for a good reason... when you can't actually come up with that reason... well, it usually turns out to be wrong. I've traced the history of weird social procedures before, and they were usually developed for reasons which are long-obsolete, but often enough they were developed for no good reason at all in the first place. Face it, people are in general stupid and do stupid things; it takes a lot of effort to get competence.

It's a bit different in engineering, where procedures often are developed for good reasons, even if you can't see them. But in social organization, oy.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 10, 2014)

Ah, so you are an engineer. I've seen equally stupid reasons for crappy engineering paradigms. It works all over humanity.


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## JoeRids (Apr 11, 2014)

mignyc said:


> NYP is my home station and I'd really love to know how to "sneak around in the basement" to board my train less stressfully!


You wait for the track to be called and go one level down to the exit concourse underneath the main concourse and go down the stairs to your platform. Try it at your own risk.

.

On trains that run through NYP (i.e. Washington-Boston Acela and regionals) you can also check the arrival monitors to see what track the train is arriving on, and then immediately proceed to the arrival concourse, down the steps, and to the train as soon as it arrives the arriving passengers have gone up the steps. I've done it every time I travel to Boston. Of course, if your train originates at NYP, you do not have this option.


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## neroden (Apr 11, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Ah, so you are an engineer. I've seen equally stupid reasons for crappy engineering paradigms. It works all over humanity.


Oh no. I'm not an engineer. And it certainly happens in engineering too. I'm just saying that in engineering it is *also* fairly often true that things are done for a *good* reason... which everyone has forgotten.
The classic example is the extensive cross-bracing on bridges which was used on every bridge before Galloping Gertie -- people had forgotten what it was for and assumed it wasn't necessary, but it was... (if you've looked up Galloping Gertie).

This is actually pretty common in engineering, due to engineers constantly failing to write down why they did things (which is a very bad habit of engineers).

In social situations, I can think of very few similar examples -- things which were put in place for a *good* reason which everyone has forgotten. The installation of proportional-representation election systems, and its subsequent repeal in a number of cities might count as an example -- repeal because people forgot why it was installed in the first place. But it's not hard to look up why it was installed.

In social/political situations, when something had a good reason, we almost always have a pretty thick paper trail explaining Why They Did It This Way, so the situation of something being done for a good reason, and nobody writing down what it was, seems to be quite rare.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 11, 2014)

John Bredin said:


> Is it possible, just possible, that Amtrak, as operator of the trains and employer of their on-board and station crews, has decided that the balance of the inconveniences in both directions ("kindergarten walk" has costs, and so does "every man for himself") works out to providing some level of guidance greater than commuter or subway passengers? I live in Chicago and commute by Metra. As people are fond of pointing out, Metra doesn't have the kindergarten walk at CUS, Amtrak does. However, Metra and Amtrak aren't the same. There's a difference between trains that run every hour or two and ones that run once a day, or even three times a week. And there's definitely a difference between commuters who take the same train daily, or even suburbanites who go downtown once a week, and people who travel infrequently who are taking the trip of a year or even a lifetime. You may not be that person, and you may resent the inferred insult to your intelligence. But no system is designed for the high-information frequent user.


In the case of NYP the station seems designed almost exclusively for the high information frequent visitor who doesn’t have any need or desire for signs, maps, instructions, or any other assistance. Folks who couldn’t care less if the signage is located where it would actually help anyone or makes any sense at all. Folks who know better than to bother with the departures board even when they’re departing. In the case of NYP I do not want less signage. I want signs that make sense and are located where they actually help you find where you are and where you’re going. I want track listings that don’t withhold information until the last minute. I want maps that are clearly posted and easily digested. Once those features are in place I want fewer obstacles to the free movement of passengers. Let them make their own way without having to become a slave to the track listing or getting hung up trying to appease the gate dragon in time to reach the train before it departs. Can you imagine an airport that didn’t release any gate information until just a few minutes before departure? When they chose to turn NYP into an underground shopping mall that just happened to have trains in the basement they created a situation were you can’t see what’s above you or below you. Without proper signage it’s hard to visualize what’s going on and even harder to figure out where you need to be and how to get there. I’ve traveled through European and Asian train stations and many of the world’s largest airports without any issue finding my way around. Yet NYP still remains just as confusing and convoluted as ever. You can claim that the people in charge know what they’re doing because they see things we cannot. You can claim our situation is unique compared to other countries. You can claim we do things this way because it’s what’s best for us. You can claim any or all of these things but I still disagree.


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## John Bredin (Apr 11, 2014)

Devil's Advocate:

(1) I'm sure you don't want less signage. I was using signage (and information booths and attendants) as examples of path-finding things that virtually nobody opposes to argue that the "kindergarten walk" is another step in making sure that passengers get on the right train, or don't get on the wrong one, and should be debated on whether the cost of the "kindergarten walk" outweigh the cost of passengers getting on the wrong train and not treated as some kind of insult or deprivation of rights.

In short, I wasn't arguing that you have to agree as much as arguing that the debate should be held on a logical basis and not be invested with the symbolism you seemed to be vesting it with.

(2) My familiarity with NYP is fleeting, having only been there a couple of times. But the "kindergarten walk" at Chicago Union Station seems to me to be of at least arguable value, where (as I said earlier) (a) many trains are once-a-day (and one is worse), and many others run only two or three times a day, (b) many passengers are only occasional train riders, and © many trains leave in the same early-afternoon period from the same area, the South Concourse.

Such circumstances set Amtrak at CUS apart from Metra at CUS, or the L/subway/Metro/light-rail etc., and tend to contradict the simple argument some make that "there's no kindergarten walk on the subway." No, but getting on the wrong subway train isn't as big a deal as getting on the _California Zephyr_ when you wanted the _Texas Eagle_ or the _Lincoln Service_ when you wanted the _Illinois Zephyr_. :wacko:


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## Simon (Apr 11, 2014)

They don't do a "kindergarten walk" at London Euston, even though someone could easily get on the 21:07 to Liverpool or the 21:10 to Preston instead of the 21:16 sleeper to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William, or the 23:30 to Wolverhampton instead of the 23:50 sleeper to Glasgow and Edinburgh. (And yes, the Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William train is only six times a week, not even daily.) Similarly, there's nothing at London Paddington to stop passengers wanting the 23:45 sleeper to Penzance getting the 23:30 to Cardiff by mistake. None of these are commuter trains.

I can't imagine Amtrak passengers are any less capable of following signs, listening to announcements or watching monitors to British passengers (many of whom are unused to rail travel or at least the London terminals).


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## afigg (Apr 11, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> In the case of NYP the station seems designed almost exclusively for the high information frequent visitor who doesn’t have any need or desire for signs, maps, instructions, or any other assistance. Folks who couldn’t care less if the signage is located where it would actually help anyone or makes any sense at all. Folks who know better than to bother with the departures board even when they’re departing. In the case of NYP I do not want less signage. I want signs that make sense and are located where they actually help you find where you are and where you’re going. I want track listings that don’t withhold information until the last minute. I want maps that are clearly posted and easily digested. Once those features are in place I want fewer obstacles to the free movement of passengers. Let them make their own way without having to become a slave to the track listing or getting hung up trying to appease the gate dragon in time to reach the train before it departs.
> 
> ...


I agree there is a serious need for improvements in wayfinding and pedestrian flow through NYP. One of the major obstacles to better wayfinding signs is the confusing layout, the many routes through and destinations in and exits from the station, the different boarding areas, and low ceilings in parts of the 2 levels. In the low ceiling and tight corridor spaces, the clutter of wayfinding signs end up getting stuck on overhead beams horizontally spread out or on a wall where it is easy to miss the one sign that is relevant to that person.

Why they have let the situation at NYP continue for so long while ever more people use the station is a good question. I think it is mostly due to that there are 3 fiefdoms in the station - Amtrak, LIRR, NJT - each with their own area, a long list of physical plant projects that have needed to get done while Amtrak has not had enough funds to tackle all of them, the politicians distracted by the shiny plans for Moynihan Station, the question of what to do about MSG, the lack of an agency or person to take charge although that should be Amtrak and so on. So the years pass with this or that piecemeal project. NYP can be improved, although we have to accept that the physical space constraints limit what can be done.

The West End Concourse project finally got enough money to get built, so that will provide additional access routes to and between the Amtrak, LIRR and NJT tracks above #4.

There have been reports about the players at NYP getting serious on how to improve the existing NYP setup, but it gets overlooked in the press coverage which focuses on the high profile (shiny) stuff: NEC Gateway, Moynihan station, etc. In the FY15 budget and FY14-FY18 5 year financial plan document, it says this about NYP in the Gateway project description (bold font mine):



> Planning is also underway to coordinate Gateway Program elements with the *recommendations of the just-concluded Penn Station Visioning Study, a cooperative study with partner railroads to consider future improvements to the existing Penn Station facility*. The program elements have been carefully designed as modular components, each offering independent utility, in recognition of an uncertain federal funding environment. Gateway's modular design allows the entire terminal complex to expand in a cohesive, integrated manner, transforming Penn Station into a facility truly worthy of the city it serves.


Ok, if there is a just completed Penn Station Visioning Study, where is it? Maybe it will get published soon? Also, "Visioning" study? I can handle "_Vision" plans, but now the buzz word is "Visioning"? _


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## jis (Apr 11, 2014)

Were you looking for this document?

Penn 2023: Envisioning a New Penn Station, the next Madison Square Garden, and the future of west Midtown.


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## HAL (Apr 11, 2014)

Simon said:


> They don't do a "kindergarten walk" at London Euston, even though someone could easily get on the 21:07 to Liverpool or the 21:10 to Preston instead of the 21:16 sleeper to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William, or the 23:30 to Wolverhampton instead of the 23:50 sleeper to Glasgow and Edinburgh. (And yes, the Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William train is only six times a week, not even daily.) Similarly, there's nothing at London Paddington to stop passengers wanting the 23:45 sleeper to Penzance getting the 23:30 to Cardiff by mistake. None of these are commuter trains.
> 
> I can't imagine Amtrak passengers are any less capable of following signs, listening to announcements or watching monitors to British passengers (many of whom are unused to rail travel or at least the London terminals).


Every day some people manage to get on the wrong train at New York Penn even with the gate check because they use the "backdoor" passages. Likely it happens in London too. Ihave not been to that London staation but probably the difference is that Amtrak cares and the London railroads don't care.

I prefer that people get on the right trains going to their destination. And safely. They need to go in the opposite direction of what some propose, they need to close the backdoor ways of boarding.

As for Washington if you observe the gate there you would see why it is needed. There are always some trying to get on the wrong train or trying to get on who should not get on. Before they had the gate procedure there were robberies, pickpockets, bums, and crazy people who got on the train and caused delays down the line when the police had to be called. Late arriving passengers grabbing on to trains or trying to jump on while the trains were moving and huring themselves.

Amtrak's boarding procedures are not insane. Those objecting are armchair professors who fortunately will be ignored.


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## MattW (Apr 11, 2014)

HAL said:


> Simon said:
> 
> 
> > They don't do a "kindergarten walk" at London Euston, even though someone could easily get on the 21:07 to Liverpool or the 21:10 to Preston instead of the 21:16 sleeper to Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William, or the 23:30 to Wolverhampton instead of the 23:50 sleeper to Glasgow and Edinburgh. (And yes, the Aberdeen/Inverness/Fort William train is only six times a week, not even daily.) Similarly, there's nothing at London Paddington to stop passengers wanting the 23:45 sleeper to Penzance getting the 23:30 to Cardiff by mistake. None of these are commuter trains.
> ...


I won't debate the other points. But why isn't this a problem at New Carrolton? Or BWI? Or Newark? Or any of the other unguarded stations? If anything it should be worse since there's no concentration of police and less people around to observe all of that. So what makes the big terminals more of a risk for all of this than the smaller stations?

Or better yet, why isn't is all this a problem for MARC? They have a gate, but no one checks tickets until you're on the train.


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## HAL (Apr 12, 2014)

MattW said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > Simon said:
> ...


It happens but is a managable problem at New Carrolton, BWI and Newark because only 5 to 30 passengers board at those stops. There are not 200 to 300 passengers getting on like is possible at New York and Washington. The crew can see the boarding passengers. The crew is on the platform. Most passengers don't spread out much so the crew can verbaly say this is train such and such. Passengers boarding at those stations can ask a crew member on the platform if they have a question. Also at Newark and BWI its difficult to get on a train going in the wrong direction.

Most MARC passengers are commuters who ride every day and know the right trains. MARC does not care that much if you get on the wrong train because they won't get tht far. MARC also does not care that much if a few tickets are not collected. The fares are so low that it is a minor revenue loss. The trains are unreserved and they don't care if the passengers don't have a seat.

The boarding procedures at large stations like New York, Washington and Philadelphia should not be changed for security and safety reasons and for making sure passengers don't flub it. You can can gripe all you want and second guess but there are good reasons for the gate checks at those stations. If anything the gate check needs to be tightened up. (New York)


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## jis (Apr 12, 2014)

HAL said:


> The boarding procedures at large stations like New York, Washington and Philadelphia should not be changed for security and safety reasons and for making sure passengers don't flub it. You can can gripe all you want and second guess but there are good reasons for the gate checks at those stations. If anything the gate check needs to be tightened up. (New York)


Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and hope that you don't get to a position to control such stuff, won't we?


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## HAL (Apr 12, 2014)

jis said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > The boarding procedures at large stations like New York, Washington and Philadelphia should not be changed for security and safety reasons and for making sure passengers don't flub it. You can can gripe all you want and second guess but there are good reasons for the gate checks at those stations. If anything the gate check needs to be tightened up. (New York)
> ...


HA HA HA .......you don't know the irony of your statement!


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## Ryan (Apr 12, 2014)

So I've already pegged you as an insider, I guess that narrows it down a bit.


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## jis (Apr 12, 2014)

Why do you suppose the  was included? 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 12, 2014)

HAL said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > HAL said:
> ...


Theres no need for a gate check at Newark for a very good reason. If you get on any train going outbound from New York, with the exception of a North Jersey Coast Line train, it will eventually take you where you can transfer to the correct train at Trenton. (I don't mention the RVL trains because if you manage to get on that, you are beyond clueless). Unless you miss a LD train, you probably aren't going to miss much of anything at all. You can transfer down the line to a train that can take you to Trenton, at which point you can transfer to an Amtrak train that can take you where you want to go.

If you are heading inbound, you can't possibly go wrong. Every single train departing Newark heading towards New York gets you to New York. More than that, if you miss an Amtrak train for another Amtrak train, the crew change in New York will mean you can probably still transfer to the right train. There generally aren't the huge ramifications of taking the wrong train from New York (they go out in all directions) or Chicago. I would assume Baltimore, and BWI are the same- they are in-line stations. You either go one stop in the wrong direction, or head to the right place.

There is no reason whatsoever tighten up New York platforms. Those who use the back way to get their train know the station like the back of their hand. They are experienced riders. They are unlikely to make mistakes, and when they do, I'd guess they blame their own idiocy.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 12, 2014)

HAL said:


> The boarding procedures at large stations like New York, Washington and Philadelphia should not be changed for security and safety reasons and for making sure passengers don't flub it. You can can gripe all you want and second guess but there are good reasons for the gate checks at those stations. If anything the gate check needs to be tightened up. (New York)


Please do keep us informed as you work to bring more and more rules and restrictions into the equation. Perhaps you'll remove or delay those pesky arrivals boards? Can't have people circumventing the departures delay. More AmCops on duty and stationed near access points to track level? VIPR teams posing as redcaps? Maybe a permanent TSA security queue or two? I can't wait to see how much damage y'all can do.


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## HAL (Apr 12, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > MattW said:
> ...


When I said if anything the gate procedures at New York should be tightened up I was being rhetorical. However so called experienced riders make plenty of mistakes. Also it is not just experienced riders that get down those back ways. It would be nice if they blamed their own idiocy, some do, but about the same amount are irate. And that is even when most crews make announcements on the train PA with the train number and destination. The expense of closing the back ways would not be worth it plus they are needed as exits. Changing the Amtrak boarding procedures at both New York and Washington to match what some have proposed to eliminate the gating is not practicable without costly renovations. We are stuck with outdated stations and platforms as I don't see a modernization happening for a long time.


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## neroden (Apr 12, 2014)

HAL said:


> The boarding procedures at large stations like New York, Washington and Philadelphia should not be changed for security and safety reasons and for making sure passengers don't flub it. You can can gripe all you want and second guess but there are good reasons for the gate checks at those stations. If anything the gate check needs to be tightened up. (New York)


I certainly hope you don't have a job at Amtrak. You don't have a clue how trains work. Matt Yglesias, like most of us, does.
I suggest you take a vacation and go spend some time taking trains across Europe -- or, better, Russia -- for a while. They have LOTS of outdated stations and platforms, and they don't pull this nonsense.

The procedures used at Chicago are demonstrably insane, as are the ones at Philadelphia. There are NO "security" reasons, security claims are just a case of "makin' **** up".

You may be able to argue "safety" at Washington or New York due to the huge crowds and danger of platform overcrowding; but not at Chicago or Philadelphia.

And as for nannying of the passengers because you're afraid they'll blame you if they get on the wrong train? Just cut it out.

Literally everywhere in the world, passengers know that you look up the departure time and track number for your train, and then follow the signs to the track and get on the train which is on that track at that time. If idiot passengers are annoyed by this, tough ****. At New York, with trains boarding on both sides of the same platform simultaneously, there might be issues.

I've never seen two trains boarding on the same platform in Chicago. Worse, the "gate" procedure at Chicago *doesn't even prevent people from getting on the wrong train* due to the crazy layout! The gates aren't actually connected to the platforms!



> Changing the Amtrak boarding procedures at both New York and Washington to match what some have proposed to eliminate the gating is not practicable


I notice you pick out Washington and New York, which do arguably have platform overcrowding problems. Don't try to defend this nonsense at Chicago or Philadelphia. The procedures at Chicago need to be changed ASAP, since they actually CREATE overcrowding problems by creating long, snaking lines with associated delays.
If you're actually in charge of this, change it now.

Seattle procedures are also indefensible. (It's worth noting that the station was very neatly designed for open passenger flow to the platforms, which is being obstructed by the idiocy.)

One more thing: Thank goodness for LA, where common sense is prevailing and the train station is being run more and more the way it SHOULD be run -- like a train station.


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## HAL (Apr 13, 2014)

neroden said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > The boarding procedures at large stations like New York, Washington and Philadelphia should not be changed for security and safety reasons and for making sure passengers don't flub it. You can can gripe all you want and second guess but there are good reasons for the gate checks at those stations. If anything the gate check needs to be tightened up. (New York)
> ...





neroden said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > The boarding procedures at large stations like New York, Washington and Philadelphia should not be changed for security and safety reasons and for making sure passengers don't flub it. You can can gripe all you want and second guess but there are good reasons for the gate checks at those stations. If anything the gate check needs to be tightened up. (New York)
> ...


To rest your mind at ease I am not in charge of boarding. You made a leap to come to that idea. However I do have more than a clue of how trains work. Matt Yglesias and you don't have much of a clue. Selfish people only think of themselves. Not others. There are good reasons why the boarding at New York, Philadelphia and Washington is done the way it is currently. I don't think Philadelphia boarding is insane. I don't know about Chicago but from you other opinions I doubt you opinion about Chicago.

I honestly have empathy for passengers who get on the wrong train even when it is their own fault, because unfortunately many stations are confusing for people who are not regular riders. 

As far as taking trains in Europe. I have taken many vacations and trains in Europe. I have vacationed in Europe almost every year the last ten years. Including Russia.


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2014)

Aw, you have empathy for passengers who get on the wrong train because it's their own fault. But not for the people forced to stand in snaking, overcrowded lines for 15 minutes at a time, or forced to find their way around the lines through the overcrowded waiting rooms, or whose trains are delayed by the bizarre boarding procedures. Selective empathy.


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## PerRock (Apr 13, 2014)

I have yet to hear a reason (and I've heard a good few, not just in this thread) as to what makes boarding an Amtrak train so different then boarding an commuter train or an European train; which would explain why this policy is in place.

The best one I've heard that really sounds like the reasoning more then an excuse as to why to keep it; is that they want to make the boarding procedure as similar to an airline's as possible. But even so it doesn't really make that much sense to do it that way.

As to boarding the wrong train, well if/when someone does so, provided that there is signage & announcements (like most stations for commuters & internationals) there really isn't that much of an excuse the 'lost' person can make. While you might have some empathy, it is their fault for not reading the signs or listening to the announcements.

As to ticket checking, in a couple stations in Europe when I was over there they checked tickets before you got onto the platforms, however it was more like an airport security set-up or a subway station, everyone went thru the same turnstilles regardless of what train they were boarding. After passing thru they they were able to go to which ever platform they needed. You could have one guy going to track 3 and the next guy in line going to track 5. There were gate managers who there to help you thru if you needed it & you could ask them for assistance locating your train, if you needed it.

But this notion that we all are idiots & need to be walked to our seats or else we'll get lost, board the wrong train & then sue to company is just ridiculous. But some bloody signs up, make some announcements, and let us find our own way. I'm perfectly capable of figuring out what aisle the milk is on in my grocery store, I think I can figure out what train to get on.

peter


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## HAL (Apr 13, 2014)

neroden said:


> Aw, you have empathy for passengers who get on the wrong train because it's their own fault. But not for the people forced to stand in snaking, overcrowded lines for 15 minutes at a time, or forced to find their way around the lines through the overcrowded waiting rooms, or whose trains are delayed by the bizarre boarding procedures. Selective empathy.


Correct. I don't have empathy for you! I know your type. It is all Me Me Me....


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 13, 2014)

Children, children, this is the play nice sandbox.


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## Rule G (Apr 14, 2014)

This has happened several times in Washington. Someone finds a way to get to the platform before the conductors have prepared the train for boarding. This person then boards them self, chooses a nice window seat ,and places their belongings on the seat next to them to discourage possible seat mates.

Then the conductor finds this person and tells them that the car they have chosen will not be on the platform at their destination station, and that they have to gather their stuff and move to another car.

Of course, none of is is the passengers fault. He will blame Amtrak for his inconvenience.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2014)

That also can happen at any of the en route stations on the NEC where there is not a Conductor present at each door, and all doors do open at all stations with sufficient platform length at least on the Regionals and the Acelas. So this is not a huge problem except for someone who happens to be going to Aberdeen or Newark DE or such. So I think it is mostly a non-issue. For various reasons people have to move from one car to another and that is a small minority, and everyone knows that such happens. So another red herring IMHO.

The French and the Germans actually have the right idea in treating regional and high speed trains quite similarly to subways with assigned seat reservation and very good marking of car locations on the platform thrown in for at least the trains that either have reserved cars or are _reservation obligatiore_. Heck the door closing chime on the TGVs is exactly the same ones as on the Paris Metro and RER!

I agree that Amtrak does face a few infrastructure challenges in places like New York and Washington, and it is very good of them to provide guidance at designated gates for those that need them. However, there is no justification for them to go out of the way to block all other access to platforms, except perhaps as a jobs program in disguise. And what they do in Boston is utterly bizarre, and is almost visibly a jobs program for people until they happen to retire.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 14, 2014)

neroden said:


> Aw, you have empathy for passengers who get on the wrong train because it's their own fault. But not for the people forced to stand in snaking, overcrowded lines for 15 minutes at a time, or forced to find their way around the lines through the overcrowded waiting rooms, or whose trains are delayed by the bizarre boarding procedures. Selective empathy.


Oh my gosh, you have to wait in line for 15 minutes! The horror!


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## amamba (Apr 14, 2014)

MikefromCrete said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Aw, you have empathy for passengers who get on the wrong train because it's their own fault. But not for the people forced to stand in snaking, overcrowded lines for 15 minutes at a time, or forced to find their way around the lines through the overcrowded waiting rooms, or whose trains are delayed by the bizarre boarding procedures. Selective empathy.
> ...


It's fine for me, but it's not fine for the elderly or other folks that have difficulty standing for extended periods of time.


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## Ryan (Apr 14, 2014)

It's also not fine in that it's completely unnecessary in many cases.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 14, 2014)

MikefromCrete said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Aw, you have empathy for passengers who get on the wrong train because it's their own fault. But not for the people forced to stand in snaking, overcrowded lines for 15 minutes at a time, or forced to find their way around the lines through the overcrowded waiting rooms, or whose trains are delayed by the bizarre boarding procedures. Selective empathy.
> ...


If you arrive at NYP an hour before departure and are unfamiliar with the barely functional design and the necessary workarounds (which the signs will NOT help with) then you may end up standing and waiting under the big departures sign for fifty plus minutes followed by a five minute mad dash to the tracks. This is not an efficient system. To my understanding the NYP process is not duplicated by any other country on Earth. NYP succeeds because of the location and the network tied to it. The station itself is a genuine disgrace for those who are seeing it for the first time.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2014)

An oasis with one muddy watering hole will succeed (be able to show huge camel* traffic) in the middle of a desert merely due to the existence of water, even muddy water. Not because the oasis is particularly attractive otherwise. And furthermore, it will continue to be heavily used even if Camel Amtrak* imposes a rule that all camels* must stand in a line, salute the gate meister and pay a 5 Rials or Shekel or whatever fee before accessing said mud hole. Such is the nature of things in a land of famine and water shortage. This will last until Camel Keolis* or even Camel Amtrak++* is allowed to dig a tubewell next door and start providing better access and service, as a result of change of regulations and resources making such possible. But until that happens you got what you got.

*All names of organizations and creatures are fictitious and used merely as an illustrative device.


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## VentureForth (Apr 14, 2014)

jis said:


> The French and the Germans actually have the right idea in treating regional and high speed trains quite similarly to subways with assigned seat reservation and very good marking of car locations on the platform thrown in. heck the door closing chime on the TGVs is exactly the same ones as on the Paris Metro and RER!


As does Japan.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Apr 15, 2014)

HAL. Let me give you a perceptive of some one whom has many disabilitys . and whom has been on rails for more then 5 years..

SEA king street .. For the love of god HIRE a real person to use a nice voice whom can use a PA the right way . . every airport I have been in has had good sound system. For alll I care the station is nice to look at inside but might as well be a amshack as far a useability ,

CUS .... Look I am autistic and cant hear well with all that back ground noise . I had to ask a few staff and Funny a amtrak policewomen was the BEST ever at helping me and she was VERY polite unlike the other two with a "Chicago tude "

If you want to consider CUS as a MAJOR hub you would be Better off to put the best there that shine .

I have NO problem with lines and the like . but the Staff need to polite and not rude . unlike some grumpy old man at SAC .

give the guest interaction jobs to those whom are excited to work for you and have a smile . you dont have to be a rude cranky person to command people . Heck some skill building classes might be of use to the front line staff .

Case in Point . For me . If there were WAY better PAs and anouncements then being AT the platform to make shure I am at the train when its Readdy . I would put more faith in the staffs hands ...And there for be more OK with waiting and the like .


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2014)

amamba said:


> It's fine for me, but it's not fine for the elderly or other folks that have difficulty standing for extended periods of time.


Indeed. I became much more alert to this sort of nonsense since I started dating someone with arthritis.
At stations where normal boarding procedures are used, one heads for the platform when the train is called, and then gets on the train. Even at very crowded stations, I've never had problems.

At Chicago in coach with Amtrak's lunatic boarding procedures, it became imperative for *me* to shove to the front of the line, repeatedly yell "Disabled passenger!" and generally make waves in order to get my fiancee treated decently. I don't know what she'd do by herself -- probably take a taxi to the next station which didn't have the insane procedures.

But HAL doesn't really care about the passengers; he just cares about making excuses for whatever procedure Amtrak is currently, pointlessly, thoughtlessly doing.


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## Railroad Bill (Apr 15, 2014)

We just departed NYP last Monday on 181 at 6am. We arrived at the station at 5:30am, went to the waiting room; had a snack from our Hampton Inn Early Breakfast bag; heard the announcement at 5:55am to board at Gate 14; got up and walked to a line formed at that gate; showed our E ticket to the attendant at the top of the escalator; rode down the escalator; and found numerous seats on a car near the cafe car; train left on time at 6:10am..welcomed by the conductor who scanned our ticket and gave us information about getting off the train in Maryland;

Seemed like an orderly affair to me. 

Some of this group needs to slow down; enjoy life more; and not complain about everything


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 15, 2014)

Railroad Bill said:


> We just departed NYP last Monday on 181 at 6am. We arrived at the station at 5:30am, went to the waiting room; had a snack from our Hampton Inn Early Breakfast bag; heard the announcement at 5:55am to board at Gate 14; got up and walked to a line formed at that gate; showed our E ticket to the attendant at the top of the escalator; rode down the escalator; and found numerous seats on a car near the cafe car; train left on time at 6:10am..welcomed by the conductor who scanned our ticket and gave us information about getting off the train in Maryland; Seemed like an orderly affair to me.  Some of this group needs to slow down; enjoy life more; and not complain about everything


We all judge things in our own way. Those of us who have seen it done better elsewhere would like to see improvements made here as well. Other folks are happy with the current setup and either don't know that some folks find NYP needlessly confusing or simply don't care that there are other solutions available. If it makes you feel any better I can say without any doubt in my mind that NYP is not going to change. Barring some sort of disaster it will remain much as it is today for as long as any of us shall live.


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## andersone (Apr 15, 2014)

I have found the most effective phrase for getting through a crowd is to firmly say (not shout) "Woman with child". Moses didn't part 'em any better.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2014)

Railroad Bill said:


> We just departed NYP last Monday on 181 at 6am. We arrived at the station at 5:30am, went to the waiting room; had a snack from our Hampton Inn Early Breakfast bag; heard the announcement at 5:55am to board at Gate 14; got up and walked to a line formed at that gate; showed our E ticket to the attendant at the top of the escalator; rode down the escalator; and found numerous seats on a car near the cafe car; train left on time at 6:10am..welcomed by the conductor who scanned our ticket and gave us information about getting off the train in Maryland;
> 
> Seemed like an orderly affair to me.
> 
> Some of this group needs to slow down; enjoy life more; and not complain about everything


Interesting when a 6am train boarding is used an a single example to come to the conclusion that it is OK.


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## VentureForth (Apr 15, 2014)

jis said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > We just departed NYP last Monday on 181 at 6am. We arrived at the station at 5:30am, went to the waiting room; had a snack from our Hampton Inn Early Breakfast bag; heard the announcement at 5:55am to board at Gate 14; got up and walked to a line formed at that gate; showed our E ticket to the attendant at the top of the escalator; rode down the escalator; and found numerous seats on a car near the cafe car; train left on time at 6:10am..welcomed by the conductor who scanned our ticket and gave us information about getting off the train in Maryland;
> ...


Yes, I've had the same experience as Railroad Bill on the 6:30 Palmetto. Very nice, indeed. On a Saturday, no less. But I can ONLY imagine what it's like at 8 AM on a Monday Morning or 5 PM on a Friday afternoon...


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## Railroad Bill (Apr 15, 2014)

I realize that not all trains throughout the day will run smoothly. I guess my point is that there seems to be a lot of whining about standing in lines..following directions..when in many cases the system does work and people get to their destinations.

We have not found the procedures to be irritating as some here have. The older you get..the more you learn to not sweat about the little things. Smile!!


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 15, 2014)

Railroad Bill said:


> I realize that not all trains throughout the day will run smoothly. I guess my point is that there seems to be a lot of whining about standing in lines..following directions..when in many cases the system does work and people get to their destinations. We have not found the procedures to be irritating as some here have. The older you get..the more you learn to not sweat about the little things. Smile!!


It really doesn't sound like you have a dog in this fight. You're just posting that it worked well for you as is. Then you go on to call the critics whiners because they shouldn't be questioning authority or they're not smiling enough or whatever the problem is. It's not clear to me if you've traveled on trains in Europe or Asia. If you haven't then giving it a try might open your mind to new options and possibilities. Or maybe you'd be really confused and end up on the wrong train without someone telling you what to do and when to do it.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 15, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > I realize that not all trains throughout the day will run smoothly. I guess my point is that there seems to be a lot of whining about standing in lines..following directions..when in many cases the system does work and people get to their destinations. We have not found the procedures to be irritating as some here have. The older you get..the more you learn to not sweat about the little things. Smile!!
> ...


Wow, Devil, calm down. You're getting pretty excited about this. Everybody has their own opinion. No need to jump over somebody who has a different viewpoint that you do. I mean if you want to find a secret way to get around Amtrak's boarding procedures, then do so. Other people don't mind the horrible "standing in line" and "kindergarten walks." Of course a world traveler like yourself probably knows your way around all the railway stations, bus depots and airports of the world and would never make a mistake.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 15, 2014)

People have the right to their own opinion. Some of us are of the opinion that the descent of this country into a police stare is not what's best for it. Some of us are of the opinion that we should grin and bear it because it could be worse and were just sweating the small stuff. I personally am of the opinion that putting up with increasing abuse and control is symptomatic of the lazy, unimaginative, apathy that is driving this country on to the rocks. But hey. This is a forum for expressing opinions, no?


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## Railroad Bill (Apr 15, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Railroad Bill said:
> 
> 
> > I realize that not all trains throughout the day will run smoothly. I guess my point is that there seems to be a lot of whining about standing in lines..following directions..when in many cases the system does work and people get to their destinations. We have not found the procedures to be irritating as some here have. The older you get..the more you learn to not sweat about the little things. Smile!!
> ...


I am always in favor of making a situation better and there were many viewpoints presented in the thread that did just that. But I also read several comments that just "whined" about the situation and how they just can't stand being told what to do. Those were the comments I was addressing, not the entire purpose of the thread. The experts here seem to indicate that structural situations at some stations do not allow for the changes that have been suggested.

If Amtrak all of a sudden decided to prohibit us from standing on the platforms at Cleveland, take pictures or wait outside on the platform for the train to come, I would see that as a bit extreme. But CLE is not NYP, WAS, BOS, CUS. It would seem that Amtrak wants to control those platforms, gates, etc for various reasons, some may be legitimate in most people's minds; some may be considered a violations of a "civil right". That is o.k. Whatever floats your boat 

And you are correct, we do not spend time in those large cities everyday and thus the frustration some of you experience, is not a part of our Amtrak experience. I only wanted to point out that for travelers who are tourists in your towns, things generally seemed to work well for us in those aforementioned cities. As a former teacher, I can identify with "kindergartners" 

Hope I have not rumpled too many feathers.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 15, 2014)

Railroad Bill said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Railroad Bill said:
> ...


I'm not sure which camp I fall into... but I would like to be in both camps. I do NOT like to be told what to do, nobody does. "Please proceed to boarding location 5" is not being told what to do. Lining people up for a kindergarden walk for no reason like in LA Union is silly... the coach process in Chicago Union is absolute insanity. But in NYC? I don't see much room for improvement... Washington DC doesn't make sense but it's set up to handle the system... meaning each gate has it's own little waiting room that leads to the checkpoint... the system itself doesn't make sense to me, but the boarding area was designed to handle it well (unlike Chicago).

My point is... each Amtrak station is unique. Some stations have systems that make total sense to me, some have systems that work but I would personally design different if I was given the authority, and some (like Chicago Union) are along the lines of what were they smoking when they thought this was a good idea!?

NYP is a pretty crazy place. I really don't get Devils Advocate's issue... what he wants is exactly what NJ Transit does at NYP.. nothing is stopping anyone from going down to the platforms.. but they can't go down till the trains get posted unless they have a crystal ball (or a radio scanner). And since the trains don't get posted until 10 minutes prior (which is a NYP issue.. the place is just that busy) it's a mad dash down the escalators or stairs. It really doesn't seem like that much better of a system than Amtrak... only difference is Amtrak has the agent checking tickets.. which to me creates a more orderly line and also makes me feel a little less rushed since it creates a natural spacing on the escalators.

Also.. Amtrak knows this is an issue.. that's why they want the Moynihan Project!


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## Rule G (Apr 15, 2014)

It's kinda like walking into a restaurant and ignoring the "please wait to be seated" sign. Grabbing any seat you want and then bitching because you don't get stellar service.

When you own the "restaurant," or railroad, then you can make the rules.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2014)

TVRM610 said:


> My point is... each Amtrak station is unique. Some stations have systems that make total sense to me, some have systems that work but I would personally design different if I was given the authority, and some (like Chicago Union) are along the lines of what were they smoking when they thought this was a good idea!?


It's really Chicago which frustrates me, mostly. Chicago could easily be run pretty much exactly like LA, quite successfully. But it isn't.


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## JayPea (Apr 16, 2014)

I agree wholeheartedly about Chicago, particularly the boarding of the coach passengers. Fortunately it's been a dozen years since I boarded coach in Chicago, but it was then, and for the several times I'd done it prior, nothing short of a madhouse. It was a case of every man for himself. Total chaos. Much like herding cats. And it doesn't sound as if that part of it has changed much, if at all.


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## VentureForth (Apr 16, 2014)

neroden said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > My point is... each Amtrak station is unique. Some stations have systems that make total sense to me, some have systems that work but I would personally design different if I was given the authority, and some (like Chicago Union) are along the lines of what were they smoking when they thought this was a good idea!?
> ...


It was actually LAX where I first felt that I was a part of a ridiculous Kindergarten Walk. Commuters were going all around doing their business, walking to platforms, etc. I had the misfortune of asking which platform the Southwest Chief departed from, and I was told to hang out behind a sign until I would be walked to my train (with a nice line following).

Metrolink passengers are smart, and Amtrak passengers are dumb it seemed.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > TVRM610 said:
> ...


Yeah, that silliness in LA boarding was no good either... thankfully it seems to be going away.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 17, 2014)

HAL said:


> As for Washington if you observe the gate there you would see why it is needed. There are always some trying to get on the wrong train or trying to get on who should not get on. Before they had the gate procedure there were robberies, pickpockets, bums, and crazy people who got on the train and caused delays down the line when the police had to be called. Late arriving passengers grabbing on to trains or trying to jump on while the trains were moving and huring themselves.


The gate checkers at Washington didn't start until some time after 9/11. Before that time, you could just walk out to the train when the track was called, nobody checked your ticket. In fact, up until 2003 or 2004 or so, most of the Northeast Regional trains were unreserved. I remember taking a walk out to the platform in 1993 just to take a look at the consist of the Montrealer, which was sitting there, taking on passengers. No one stopped my from walking out the platform to hang around and look at the trains. Of course, the MARC trains load to this day without any gate check, and you don't hear too many stories about some poor schlub ending up in Harper's Ferry when he wanted to go the Baltimore, in fact I've never heard such a story. And at about the same time they started the ticket-checking nonsense for Amtrak, they also started evicting MARC passengers from hanging around in the trainshed by Gate A. This has just backed up the crowd into the concourse, just moving whatever security vulnerabilities that might have existed into a higher traffic area, And as far as pickpockets, bums, and crazy people, I'm not sure which alternate universe contains a WUS crawling with such characters, in the one in which I've been riding through Union Station since the late 1980s, those sort of people are really not that common, and certainly not on the platforms, with or without the gate [email protected] er, "dragons."


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## Barciur (Apr 19, 2014)

I attempted this today in Philly:



> The staircase opposite your gate is almost always open and leads to the same track. Go down that, and you beat the line. Sometimes they close it off, so it doesn't always work. But most of the time you are golden!


And immediately had an AMTRAK employee chasing after me and telling me not to go down the stairs. Oh well.

I was travelling from NYP and stepped off to buy a drink, so I just went to the proper gate and ignored the line. Which leads me to thinking: what if I just did that every time even travelling from PHL? The conductor didn't say anything, so he wouldn't know since the crews change.


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## SarahZ (Apr 19, 2014)

JayPea said:


> I agree wholeheartedly about Chicago, particularly the boarding of the coach passengers. Fortunately it's been a dozen years since I boarded coach in Chicago, but it was then, and for the several times I'd done it prior, nothing short of a madhouse. It was a case of every man for himself. Total chaos. Much like herding cats. And it doesn't sound as if that part of it has changed much, if at all.


It's pretty much the same. They line the coach passengers up in that miserable little waiting room and then send them to Platform X. The gates aren't connected to the platform, so I don't understand why you have to go through the waiting room first. Once you get past the gate dragon, you can run to pretty much any platform you want.

Chicago has displays like the airports, with the trains and gates listed. Additionally, the platforms have a sign with the train's name and several destination cities on it right next to the door. It's not hard.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if I hung out in the generic area near the platforms and then boarded from there once they called our train. I'm a ticketed passenger, so it's not like I'm breaking a rule by going through the platform doors. Also, they don't scan tickets (for the Wolverine) at the gate itself, so it's not like my ticket wouldn't get lifted.


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## CHamilton (Sep 11, 2014)

House GOP bill would force Amtrak to rethink its insane boarding process



> Sandy Johnston at the Itinerant Urbanist blog found something very interesting lurking in a House GOP bill that would cut Amtrak subsidies while advancing various policy reforms — a review of the dread boarding procedures.


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## Blackwolf (Sep 12, 2014)

Somehow I get this vision of a Congressman wearing a suit of armor, squaring off at a smoke-billowing snarling Gate Dragon...


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## MattW (Sep 12, 2014)

Regardless of what happens to the rest of the bill, I dearly hope that section stays intact.


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## Ryan (Sep 12, 2014)

I don't. Congress needs to learn to keep their hands off the stupid micromanaging, especially if they're not going to provide adequate funding. Crappy micromanagement is still crappy, even if we happen to agree with what they claim they're trying to accomplish.

This is in no way a defense of the crappy boarding process, that needs to be fixed, but not by a meddling bunch of idiots.


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## VentureForth (Sep 12, 2014)

RyanS said:


> I don't. Congress needs to learn to keep their hands off the stupid micromanaging, especially if they're not going to provide adequate funding. Crappy micromanagement is still crappy, even if we happen to agree with what they claim they're trying to accomplish.
> 
> This is in no way a defense of the crappy boarding process, that needs to be fixed, but not by a meddling bunch of idiots.


I hardly think that ordering an _ evaluation_ is on par with micromanaging. They aren't telling them to change - only to evaluate and justify, if you will, their current policy.

I think it's written well - compare your boarding process to everyone else's.


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## jis (Sep 12, 2014)

RyanS said:


> I don't. Congress needs to learn to keep their hands off the stupid micromanaging, especially if they're not going to provide adequate funding. Crappy micromanagement is still crappy, even if we happen to agree with what they claim they're trying to accomplish.
> 
> This is in no way a defense of the crappy boarding process, that needs to be fixed, but not by a meddling bunch of idiots.


In my experience, this particular form of micro-management raises its head when it is found by many that the management bureaucracy is non-responsive for whatever reason. It is not at all unusual to have such issues taken to legislatures in various states after the well meaning advocates have bashed their heads bloody against a non-responsive bureaucracy. The Amtrak bureaucracy is answerable only to the federal legislature, so I personally don't see anything wrong with such things coming up in the legislature provided other paths of getting the attention of the bureaucracy have been exhausted. So I guess I do respectfully, disagree with Ryan and perhaps many others on this one. Of course it also helps if the legislature has any credibility at all about anything.

Bottom line is that we the people have but a few recourses. We could go through Customer Relations, which apparently couldn't care less about this issue. We could appeal to Mr. Boardman, who in my reckoning is quite aware of these things and chooses not to do anything about it for whatever reason. Or we could appeal to the paymasters, our representatives who control the funding. Of course unintended consequences of the latter could be viscous too. Anyhow, for this reason I am unwilling to rule out taking matters to the legislature under all circumstances.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 12, 2014)

I dislike the Congressional micro-management of Amtrak also , but on this one I think ji's analysis is spot on!


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## Ryan (Sep 12, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> I hardly think that ordering an _ evaluation_ is on par with micromanaging. They aren't telling them to change - only to evaluate and justify, if you will, their current policy.


Are they providing funding for that evaluation?



jis said:


> Of course it also helps if the legislature has any credibility at all about anything.


Sadly, this legislature has no credibility whatsoever.



> Anyhow, for this reason I am unwilling to rule out taking matters to the legislature under all circumstances.


Nor am I. In the circumstance of a legislature that doesn't suck, going to them is the right thing to do. But sadly, I don't trust them to not screw it up like they've managed to screw up just about everything in every action (and inaction) they take.


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## VentureForth (Sep 12, 2014)

I think to jis' point, if they managed themselves well enough the congress wouldn't have to.


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## neroden (Sep 12, 2014)

jis said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > I don't. Congress needs to learn to keep their hands off the stupid micromanaging, especially if they're not going to provide adequate funding. Crappy micromanagement is still crappy, even if we happen to agree with what they claim they're trying to accomplish.
> ...


Same reason there was a law requiring Amtrak to "study" carrying pets. Because Amtrak management was being bullheaded & stupid about it.

I have to agree, this part of the bill is a good idea.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 12, 2014)

This is not a "GOP" bill. It was introduced to the Transportation Committee by four representatives - two Republican and two Democrat, and was described by members on both sides of the aisle as bipartisan.

Politico


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## PRR 60 (Sep 12, 2014)

I would add this about "micromanaging."

One needs to look no further than Amtrak's miserable progress toward ADA compliance to see how poorly managed the organization is. While stations stay noncompliant for years on end lacking just a simple ramp or curb cut with Amtrak crying "poor", Amtrak management is able to find $2 million to rehab a Viewliner prototype sleeper into an executive boondoggle, er, I mean "inspection" car. If it takes Congressional "micromanaging" to whack Amtrak into doing the right thing for ADA, boarding procedures, or anything else, then so be it.

As long as the taxpayers are funding Amtrak to the tune of well over $1 billion per year, Congress and DOT has every right to tell Amtrak what to do.


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## neroden (Sep 12, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> I would add this about "micromanaging."
> 
> One needs to look no further than Amtrak's miserable progress toward ADA compliance to see how poorly managed the organization is.


Honestly, I'm willing to cut Amtrak quite a lot of slack on the structural retrofits for ADA compliance, largely because I have some knowledge of what a pain it is to retrofit buildings *you don't own*. Amtrak has mentioned this more than once in its reports, including a description of an *18-month delay* which required a *lawsuit* just to get the landlord to talk to them.
Since the arrival of Boardman, Amtrak really has been trying. The 17 worst stations (no step-free access from street to train) are all in progress. Of those, 5 were delayed because PA said they would fund major rebuilds and then didn't have funding, 1 caught up in a similar project in DE, and 2 caught up in similar projects in CT. Amtrak seems to have managed to finalize arrangements with UP because the 3 on UP tracks will be built in FY15. The remainder are 3 on CSX, 1 on Buckingham Branch, 1 in Vermont, and Westerly, RI. (The station list is from the OIG report oig-a-2014-010.pdf .) One of the things which is happening is that a lot of states and localities are trying to completely replace their stations, and it obviously seems like a poor use of money to upgrade a station which will be demolished soon.

(Speaking of ADA status, the Newark DE project got delayed AGAIN by the Delaware Legislature cutting the funding. http://www.newarkpostonline.com/news/article_9ff2a492-0af4-583d-9b54-8f8cf3e8665b.html Delaware owns the station. Faced with this sort of behavior from its partners, Amtrak might be well advised to discontinue stops at Newark, DE in order to satisfy its legal requirements.)

Amtrak did treat ADA considerations completely cavalierly and irresponsibly prior to Boardman's arrival, and I think we can heap tons of blame for that on Graham Claytor, Thomas Downs, George Warrington, David Gunn, David Hughes, Alex Kummant, and Alexander Crosbie. Yes, even the popular Claytor and Gunn completely ignored the legal mandate, even on stations owned by Amtrak. (Boardman got those stations done fast.) They didn't even *start* planning. And they don't have the excuse that station replacement was planned in the near future, because back in 1992 or 2003, it generally wasn't. Gunn in particular should have known better.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 12, 2014)

Speaking of the ADA why were the mobile lifts deemed non-compliant? If I understand correctly despite the lifts Amtrak is now required to repave every platform at every station that doesn't meet the latest ADA requirements. I get the feeling that ADA compliance is a perpetually moving target at this point. Amtrak could spend hundreds of millions making the whole network compliant today and in a year or two there would be a whole new set of directives that required millions more. At this point I wonder how long it is before Amtrak runs out of time and is forced to discontinue some stops completely because they cannot afford to upgrade every single stop to make it compliant with the ADA's perfection-or-nothing sledgehammer approach.


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## jis (Sep 12, 2014)

Unless you keep doing that how will all the planners, designers and builders children be put through school and college?  Juuuust kidding.


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## neroden (Sep 12, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Speaking of the ADA why were the mobile lifts deemed non-compliant? If I understand correctly despite the lifts Amtrak is now required to repave every platform at every station that doesn't meet the latest ADA requirements. I get the feeling that ADA compliance is a perpetually moving target at this point.


Well, if you don't even try to meet the 1990 standards for 20 years, don't be surprised when standards change.



> Amtrak could spend hundreds of millions making the whole network compliant today and in a year or two there would be a whole new set of directives that required millions more.


No. 20 years? Yeah probably.


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## Berlin (Sep 12, 2014)

RyanS said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > This article was specific to the NEC, but in fact the Kindergarten Walk is used across the country. NYP is the only station that I can think of that has platform space limitations.
> ...


The platforms are insufficiently wide at NYP, WAS, CHI...and the list goes on...unless and until that situation can be rectified, the "madness" must continue. One of the key things ignored in the hubbub about the boarding process is exactly that. On top of it, they have photographs of European stations along with the main article I read, but the stations photographed ALL have half a dozen or more points of entry, where nearly all of the US stations cited have exactly one.


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## neroden (Sep 13, 2014)

Chicago platforms are plenty wide enough for intercity train traffic. Given the way Amtrak actually handles the trains, there is no advantage to the crazy gate system. They already have everyone boarding the train mobbing the platform simultaneously. They already have everyone getting off the train mobbing the platform simultaneously. They never have people getting on and off the same train at the same time, because the trains all originate and terminate at Chicago...


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## Alice (Sep 13, 2014)

neroden said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of the ADA why were the mobile lifts deemed non-compliant? If I understand correctly despite the lifts Amtrak is now required to repave every platform at every station that doesn't meet the latest ADA requirements. I get the feeling that ADA compliance is a perpetually moving target at this point.
> ...


I actually think in time (and I mean a long time) access will be achieved by providing people with different technology than wheelchairs. Here is an example. A few years ago, you could buy an iBot wheelchair, a gyroscope-leveled chair that could handle curbs easily and staircases somewhat. It would also work on grass, gravel, steep slopes, etc. It would break stair tread that extended past the riser and tear up carpet so wasn't good in apartments, but was fine on concrete or marble found in corporate and government buildings. It was huge so wouldn't fit under a standard table. It cost $20,000 and VA was the only insurance that covered it. People who have them love them and a whole lot more were waiting for them to advance to where they'd work in more situations, and were upset when Johnson&Johnson pulled the plug a few years ago. Eventually wheelchair design will advance to solve these and other issues.

It might not be politically palatable, but it would be less expensive to equip everyone who can't climb stairs with their own stair-climbing device, than to eliminate all stairs.

The same goes for other access rules. I think adapting each person as needed is a better solution than trying to adapt the world, and believe eventually that will be practical.

As for those hand-cranked lifts, I don't know the compliance issues, but would think Amtrak would like to get rid of them anyway because they are slow and labor intensive. It is possible Amtrak wants to use ADA funding for work they want to do anyway. This is pretty common, I saw a pretty stretched justification for using ADA funding for a new roof once, bundled with a new ramp and remodeled bathrooms.


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## neroden (Sep 13, 2014)

The IBot is wonderful, but... development on that sort of tech is slow, really really slow, and may never actually be practical.

Meanwhile, getting rid of stairs has numerous collateral benefits, as London has discovered with people with strollers and rolling luggage.


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## PerRock (Sep 13, 2014)

Berlin said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


Most European stations I was in, when I traveled around Europe a few years ago, at most had 2 entry points to the platforms. Most only had one, and very few had 3. Come to think of it, I can't think of any that had 3; and only a few that had 2. I'll admit that the platforms at CHI (& I think NYP, it's been a while since I've been on the platforms there) are pretty narrow. But CHI handles Metra commuter traffic on those platforms just as fine. And Amtrak's boarding procedure there does nothing to effect how many people are boarding or disembarking at one time. Once they allow people onto the platform everyone is allowed out, they don't do procedural boarding (like boarding per destination).

peter


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## MattW (Sep 13, 2014)

They could eliminate, or at least mitigate the large crush by letting people pick their seats before they board. I know I don't want to be the last one in line and get stuck with some tray table-less, windowless seat so of course I'm going to try to be the first one in line, along with everyone else trying to be the first one in line.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 13, 2014)

neroden said:


> The IBot is wonderful, but... development on that sort of tech is slow, really really slow, and may never actually be practical.
> 
> Meanwhile, getting rid of stairs has numerous collateral benefits, as London has discovered with people with strollers and rolling luggage.


Back in the day when I was pushing a stroller (24 yrs ago), I benefitted from the ramps & door openers. I did wonder why some sidewalk cutouts were not near the entrances to some places (like at a mall).


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## rickycourtney (Sep 19, 2014)

...even our dysfunctional members of congress are demanding it be looked into.

From the Passenger Rail Reform and Reinvestment Act of 2014:



> *Sec. 211. Amtrak boarding procedures*
> 
> (a) Report—
> Not later than 6 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Amtrak Office of Inspector General shall transmit to the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation of the Senate a report that—
> ...


The bill is unlikely to pass, but we now know that congress (or at least their staffers) are tired of Amtrak's boarding procedures. Maybe this shot across the bow will be enough to make Amtrak look into the matter (before they're legally required to).

For those interested in such things, here are the top 10 busiest stations in FY 2013:


New York, NY
Washington, DC
Philadelphia, PA
Chicago, IL
Los Angeles, CA
Boston South Station, MA
Sacramento, CA
Baltimore, MD
Albany-Rensselaer, NY
New Haven, CT
I know that NYP, WAS, PHL, CHI & BOS use either gate dragons or some form of the kindergarten walk as a part of the boarding procedure. But at both LAX and SAC, Amtrak has been forced to stop using those procedures. Passengers are now allowed to wait for their train on the platform. As far as I can tell, the world didn't end and no trains left the station without any passengers.


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## NS (Sep 19, 2014)

This nonsense is exactly why I prefer to board in New Carrollton, MD instead of Washington, DC. Way too many Amtrak staff (and police) prancing around and puffing out their chests. Enough already.


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## Ryan (Sep 19, 2014)

Discussed extensively here:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/59377-vox-amtraks-insane-boarding-procedures-explained/

MODERATOR COMMENT: THIS TOPIC WAS MERGED INTO THE ONE REFERENCED IN THIS POST.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 19, 2014)

I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.


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## MattW (Sep 19, 2014)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.


None because that won't happen.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 19, 2014)

My use of stations like NYP, WAS, and CHI is impacted by the absurd boarding procedures that penalize self sufficiency in favor of patronizing micromanagement. I understand that if you live in the area it's something you just put up with because you have no choice. For those of us who do not live in the area the experience of being treated like a child can leave a lasting negative impression.



Thirdrail7 said:


> I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.


What are you talking about?


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## SarahZ (Sep 19, 2014)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I wonder what law will get passed when people start showing up in the wrong state in large numbers.


In Chicago, the monitors show which gate to use, and then the gate has a digital sign next to it with the train number, the name of the train, and the major destination cities. It's a lot like an airport.

Plus, when you get to the train, the car attendant usually checks your ticket before you board.


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## haolerider (Sep 19, 2014)

This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 19, 2014)

This is a reminder of how good the system is @ Union Station in LAX where one can go to the Platform thru the tunnel on your own, use a Red Cap via Cart or if in the Lounge have a Staff Member accompany those who don't know the way to their Platform!

Chicago, which lets Metra Riders flock to the plstforms , yet uses Gate Dragons for the ridiculously Small and Overcrowded Waiting Rooms and does a Kindergarten Walk from the Metro Lounge could Learn from this model!


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 19, 2014)

haolerider said:


> This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!


Things were actually pretty calm until you started shouting about it. Once you've had a chance to calm down I'd like you to explain how stations like NYP are making it easier for people who don't know where they're going. The design is claustrophobic, the signs are confusing, the departure boards are censored until the last moment, and then the staff hold you up until you almost miss your train. When it comes to folks who don't know where they are going stations like NYP aren't helping anyone. I would have no problem whatsoever with Amtrak repurposing the angry gate dragons into friendly information clerks for folks who are new to riding Amtrak. In fact I'd strongly support that. What I do not support is holding everyone else back in the process. Seems pretty reasonable to me.


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## Barciur (Sep 19, 2014)

In Philly there is no screens or boards or anything - so they would have to be installed before letting people just wander around platforms without being checked. And with high volume of Regionals and Keystones there, it's easy to mistake a train - heck, I've been close to doing that with the gate dragons there... Because the same platform had a WB Keystone on it and a EB Keystone on the other track. Use of info boards could go a long way!


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## SarahZ (Sep 19, 2014)

haolerider said:


> This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!


I'm okay with confused people waiting for an escort as long as I'm allowed to board the train without having to wait to be escorted. Thousands of commuters use Metra every day, departing from the same platform area, and they are trusted to know which train to use. I would like that same level of respect, as I am quite capable of reading signs. I do it every time I'm in a different train station or airport, and I haven't gotten on the wrong train or plane yet.


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## KierstenKress (Sep 19, 2014)

I will bookmark this thread and come back in September *2024. *

I'm willing to bet that there will be no change to how Amtrak board trains at NYP, WAS, CHI, or other stations.

See you in 10 years.


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## lstone19 (Sep 19, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > This whole "kindergarten walk" thing seems like a minor thing to worry about! Have you ever watched people who don't know where they are going.....stopping in the middle of a crowd.....asking direction....totally confused? Doesn't Amtrak have much more serious issues to handle than this minor irritation and doesn't this forum have better things to worry about? Get over it!
> ...


As a daily Metra rider, yes, the 95% of us who ride daily find their way to the right train. But on my rush-hour express, every week or two, we get someone who couldn't be bothered to read the schedule or destination board and wants to get off at a station we don't stop at. For instance, they know they want a Milwaukee West train so they get on the next one assuming every one stops at every station (just like every Red Line L train stops at every Red Line station).

OTOH, it is somewhat ridiculous. A few months ago, with Tracks 1 and 3 out of service for a week, my 5:05 train was boarding on Track 19 even as the 5:08 Hiawatha was boarding across the platform on Track 17. Metra passengers had free access to the platform even as Amtrak passengers were being forced through the lounge (although out on the platform, how was anyone to know). And if you know the arrangement there, you know that meant the two streams of passengers had to cross (Metra passengers entering the platform from left with our train on the right and v.v. for the Amtrak passengers). And still, you had a few people who couldn't tell an Amtrak train from a Metra train.


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## SarahZ (Sep 19, 2014)

lstone19 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > haolerider said:
> ...


Right, but my point was that people are _trusted_ to know which train to use. I think they should still have gate agents to show wayward/confused Amtrak travelers to their trains, but the percentage of travelers who know what we're doing and ride the LD trains out of Chicago frequently should be allowed to board from the gate instead of waiting in the cattle pen with the herd and walked out.

If Metra riders get to walk to their gate on their own, _I_ want to be allowed to walk to my gate on my own, just like in an airport.


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## Tennessee Traveler (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm pretty intelligent and still quite able bodied at 72. I have to fly to Chicago and other places to catch an Amtrak train and the so called "kindergarten" walk has never bothered me and in fact I quite enjoy it. I've traveled on the CZ and EB enough to know exactly where to go but still appreciate boarding from the Metro Lounge. Also I noted last time the Amtrak lounge agent only directed us to the right track and did not continue on a "kindergarten" hike with us once we were on the correct track. Never boarded coach at Chicago so I am not familiar with it. So complaints about the "kindergarten" boarding fall on my deaf ears.


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## neroden (Sep 20, 2014)

KierstenKress said:


> I will bookmark this thread and come back in September *2024. *
> 
> I'm willing to bet that there will be no change to how Amtrak board trains at NYP, WAS, CHI, or other stations.
> 
> See you in 10 years.


I'll take that bet. Amtrak will abandon its stupid kindergarten-walk / gate-dragon policies because train riders will demand that they abandon them... and there will be far more train riders than before, so it will be much less practical to engage in this nonsense.

With news media *and Congress* complaining at Amtrak about this, I think it'll get changed.

CUS already has very good signs (although the signs were way too chatty last time I was there, with overlapping voice announcements). "Proceed to Track 19" should be clear for 99.9% of people.


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## Green Maned Lion (Sep 20, 2014)

Neroden, nobody has ever gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.


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## neroden (Sep 20, 2014)

GML: yeah, actually, they have. Only when it coincidentally causes them to damage their operations in another way (....like this is doing), but they sure have, I can remember several chains of stores which died pretty much exactly due to underestimating the intelligence of the American people.

("They'll never be smart enough to pick out item X from the shelves without our store employees assisting them! So our low-employee competitors will never get any business!")


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## HAL (Sep 20, 2014)

KierstenKress said:


> I will bookmark this thread and come back in September *2024. *
> 
> I'm willing to bet that there will be no change to how Amtrak board trains at NYP, WAS, CHI, or other stations.
> 
> See you in 10 years.


If there will be a change but it won't be the one the peanut gallery desires. That would be scanning all tickets before anyone can get to track. And no way to get down to the tracks in New York without being scanned.


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## jis (Sep 20, 2014)

it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.

The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.


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## Green Maned Lion (Sep 20, 2014)

neroden said:


> GML: yeah, actually, they have. Only when it coincidentally causes them to damage their operations in another way (....like this is doing), but they sure have, I can remember several chains of stores which died pretty much exactly due to underestimating the intelligence of the American people.
> 
> ("They'll never be smart enough to pick out item X from the shelves without our store employees assisting them! So our low-employee competitors will never get any business!")


Totally different. Macy's, which is long over due to die a slow and painful death, for instance, has been understaffing their stores the way the big boxes do. Unfortunately that isn't what a Macys customer wants. Or they'd be at WalMart.

You are confusing overestimating personal intelligence with underestimating national intelligence. Different.


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## Ryan (Sep 20, 2014)

jis said:


> it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.
> 
> The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.


That sounds like a dream come true, for me at least. The less I have to interact with people (you chumps excluded, of course), the better.


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## neroden (Sep 20, 2014)

jis said:


> it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate.


Or, better, like the standard ticket gates used in Britain.

Frankly, there's no way they can really gate the tracks at any of these stations unless they gate the tracks for the commuter operators as well. As a result, the change IS going to be that Amtrak will start to do things exactly like the commuter operator in the same station. Probably the commuter operator won't want to put in gates, and therefore Amtrak will stop its goofy pre-checking of tickets.


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## HAL (Sep 20, 2014)

jis said:


> it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.
> 
> The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.


That is what I believe will happen. Airport style self scan with a gate agent to help those who have a problem. And they will configure Boston, New York, Washington, Philadelphia so that all have to go thru the gate.


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## neroden (Sep 20, 2014)

HAL said:


> That is what I believe will happen. Airport style self scan with a gate agent to help those who have a problem. And they will configure Boston, New York, Washington, Philadelphia so that all have to go thru the gate.


Sure, as soon as the LIRR, NJT, MBTA, MARC, and VRE agree to use the same system. In other words, no, they won't configure them that way (for one thing, LIRR won't play nice with *anyone*).

I would have no problem with British-style ticket gates (walk onto the platform whenever you want, if you have a ticket). What I don't think can continue, in the long run, is for Amtrak to keep using a *different system* than the commuter operator who uses the *same platforms*.


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## HAL (Sep 20, 2014)

neroden said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > That is what I believe will happen. Airport style self scan with a gate agent to help those who have a problem. And they will configure Boston, New York, Washington, Philadelphia so that all have to go thru the gate.
> ...


You have no imagination. The stations I mentioned can be configured that way. For sure what you desire, no gates, won't happen.


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## SarahZ (Sep 20, 2014)

jis said:


> it would be fine if they do it airline style self scan at a scanning station by the gate. I did two flights yesterday, and both boardings were self scanned. Yeah there was a gate agent around to help those who had problem. but for the ones who did not they did not participate in any way in the boarding process. I was actually quite impressed and things moved along pretty quickly. I heard basically they want to explore the possibility of reducing the number of gate agents needed. They are also deploying self tagging of checked baggage.
> 
> *The general philosophy should be to let those that know what they are doing do their thing and be on the way and yet be ready to help those that are lost or are unfamiliar etc.*


Exactly.

I used the self-check-in and self-tagging machine at DFW last year and loved it.


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## rickycourtney (Sep 21, 2014)

I think the boarding procedure in Los Angeles should be the gold standard for Amtrak:


Large departures board in the lounges where track number is posted when assigned.
Small boards at each track that displays the trains number, name, destination and departure time.
Customer service agents available in the departures lounge to answer any questions and Red Cap service available to take less abled bodied passengers out to trains.
Tickets collected by conductors onboard trains.
The system works well in Los Angeles and a similar system works well at nearly every train station in Europe.


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## neroden (Sep 21, 2014)

The LA system is absolutely how it should work. That's the standard "open system". (The alternative, the standard "closed system", is to do it like the NYC Subway, with turnstiles everywhere, and that's not going to happen because nobody will do it at the rural stations.)

Hopefully fools like HAL will have no influence on Amtrak's future planning in this regard.

And HAL?

- Chicago cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of Metra (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever), particularly the platform which leads to the Ogilvie exit

- NY Penn cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of LIRR and NJT (you can already bypass the idiocy if you're clever, and people often do)

- DC cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of MARC and VRE

- Boston cannot be configured with real gate lines without the cooperation of the MBTA

This is because platforms are shared, as they should be. Amtrak could, if its management wanted to alienate *all* of its commuter rail partners, be asininely stupid and try to have isolated tracks for "Amtrak only" and separate them from the commuter rail platforms, reducing terminal capacity and delaying hundreds of trains.

Commuter and intercity platform seperation was done in the design of Philadelphia 30th St, but makes no sense given the design of these other stations; it would be the worst form of turf-war idiocy.

So HAL -- for sure, the crazy attempts at platform-gating will be eliminated. Guaranteed. Congress has already signalled what *its* opinion is, just as it did with pets. Were you one of the ones who said that Amtrak would never carry pets?.... Congress spoke, and Amtrak listened. It'll happen again.


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## HAL (Sep 21, 2014)

neroden said:


> The LA system is absolutely how it should work. That's the standard "open system". (The alternative, the standard "closed system", is to do it like the NYC Subway, with turnstiles everywhere, and that's not going to happen because nobody will do it at the rural stations.)
> 
> Hopefully fools like HAL will have no influence on Amtrak's future planning in this regard.
> 
> ...


Just because you are not clever enough to visualize how it can be done does not mean it won't be done. I can see how it could be done. I think I have been around the major NEC stations enough to know that it could be done at those.

I don't know what pets have to do with it. I never said never though. If Amtrak can make carrying pets work and not inconvenience passengers then that would be good.


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## HAL (Sep 21, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> I think the boarding procedure in Los Angeles should be the gold standard for Amtrak:
> 
> 
> Large departures board in the lounges where track number is posted when assigned.
> ...


In Europe it varies by country. Some countries like the UK you have to have a ticket to get on the platform at big stations and there is either a gate or a person inspecting. In other countries like Italy you stamp your ticket and a conductor inspects on the train. A fine if you didn't time stamp the ticket. The ony place I recall tickets collected on the train by the conductor was I think, Norway.

I would love it to see conductors continue to collect tickets on the train  , but I think Amtrak plans to do away with that.... if they can.... and have the tickets scanned at gates of some kind.


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## neroden (Sep 21, 2014)

HAL said:


> I would love it to see conductors continue to collect tickets on the train  , but I think Amtrak plans to do away with that.... if they can.... and have the tickets scanned at gates of some kind.


They can't, not in 50 years. Try to put gates at Williston, ND, at Utica, NY, even at Denver, CO. Good luck trying. Not gonna happen.

If you can't gate 99% of the stations, trying to gate a couple of 'em is madness.

Sure, maybe they'd like to gate everything. But it's grossly impractical.


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## Barciur (Sep 21, 2014)

Yeah, all kinds of platforms like Coatesville, PA, Parkesburg, PA etc come to mind. And better yet - try gating stations shared by commuter rail and Amtrak, like SEPTA stations - Exton, PA. That's something that will not happen and I'm pretty glad about it - I like the ability to get on a train and buy a ticket on the train from the conductor.

As for the discussion about Europe, in both Poland and Germany you can get on any platform you want without being asked for a ticket, railfan's dream! That's how great videos of international trains consisting of cars from 5 different countries come into play. And it's great - I love that system the most.


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## HAL (Sep 21, 2014)

neroden said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > I would love it to see conductors continue to collect tickets on the train  , but I think Amtrak plans to do away with that.... if they can.... and have the tickets scanned at gates of some kind.
> ...


None have been talking about gating every station. We have been discussing major stations like New York and Washington.


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## neroden (Sep 21, 2014)

There's really very little point to gating some stations and not others. It's madness. If you don't gate every station on a route, then you still have to have the conductor check ALL the tickets on board the train (including those for people who got on at 'gated' stations), so basically, it's a gigantic waste of money and manpower to do a duplicate check of the tickets beforehand.

But go ahead, advocate for Amtrak to waste large amounts of money and manpower on useless, redundant, make-work activity which delays trains. I don't think anyone in Congress will support that.


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## afigg (Sep 21, 2014)

neroden said:


> The LA system is absolutely how it should work. That's the standard "open system". (The alternative, the standard "closed system", is to do it like the NYC Subway, with turnstiles everywhere, and that's not going to happen because nobody will do it at the rural stations.)
> 
> Hopefully fools like HAL will have no influence on Amtrak's future planning in this regard.
> 
> ...


The LA Metro Red and Purple lines switched to a gate system a year or more ago IIRC.

As for NYP, Amtrak would only need to install gates at the current Amtrak boarding area and the expanded West End concourse (which is the future boarding area for Moynihan station). Amtrak puts the gate dragons only at their entrances, so why would they have to install gate scanners at the NJT and LIRR platform entrances? When the gate on the West End Concourse is being used for boarding a LIRR train, the gate can be left open or the scanners ignored. Same goes for VRE or MARC at WAS. Don't use the scanners or have a gate dragon when boarding the MARC and VRE trains.

I think we underestimate here the need for crowd control and the number of passengers who might get on the wrong Amtrak train or without a ticket if there was not a ticket check. Especially at the crowded and confusing NYP. I have seen this when a woman got on at Trenton and sat next to me while I was a Regional headed to NYP. The conductor showed up only a couple of minutes later and she pulled out a NJT ticket. Apparently she was confused and did not realize that this was not a NJT train despite the numerous Amtrak logos. The Conductor was rather brusque with her and ordered her to go to the cafe car where she would have to get off at the next stop, which IIRC, was Metropark. She looked confused, but got up and walked in the direction of the cafe car. I suspect this is a common occurrence for the ticket takers on the NEC.

If someone gets on an southbound Amtrak train at NYP with the wrong ticket or a train heading in the wrong direction, their ticket may not get checked until after Newark. The next stop might be Trenton, so they could get stuck in Trenton while straightening out their trip. If someone gets on the wrong commuter train, usually it not far to the next stop and the passenger can get off and figure out how to get to where they were originally going. There is also the possibility of someone doing this intentionally, buying a NJT, SEPTA ticket and getting on an Acela or Regional, claiming ignorance when the conductor comes to scan the ticket, so they can get a more comfortable and faster ride to the next Amtrak stop.

It is not cost effective to check tickets at the gate at all the NEC stations. But since NYP, WAS, PHL, BOS have such a high volume and a lot of station staff, they can reduce the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or without a ticket by checking at those stations.

Now Amtrak can certainly improve the boarding process at NYP, WAS, PHL. Especially at NYP, with working displays at the gate, a scanner on each side to get people through more quickly and allow boarding from 2 locations once the expanded West End Concourse opens.


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## neroden (Sep 21, 2014)

afigg said:


> It is not cost effective to check tickets at the gate at all the NEC stations.


You had three extra words in that sentence: let me fix it for you. 
It is not cost effective to check tickets at the gate at all.



> But since NYP, WAS, PHL, BOS have such a high volume and a lot of station staff, they can reduce the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or without a ticket by checking at those stations.


Not really. I'd like to see a controlled study demonstrating that this has any reduction in the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or boarding without a ticket. I simply don't believe it. It's fiction.
Obviously there are plenty of passengers getting on the wrong train *with* the current gate dragons, and (duh) they board through the *ungated* commuter rail entrances to the platforms. If you want to prevent this, you have to gate the COMMUTER RAIL entrances... and that's what I said originally.

You can't create a gated station unless the commuter rail operators at the same station agree to it.

You can have an "open system" (walk up to the platform, tickets checked on the train), with "POP" being one variant of that -- that works fine. Or you can have a "closed system" (gatelines at every station) -- that works fine too.

You shouldn't have some sort of hybrid, it doesn't work right and wastes money. (London, UK has a couple of stations which are hybrids for historical reasons. They are generally acknowledged to be sources of constant revenue loss, but London tolerates the loss because they're too hard to retrofit.)

LA Metro converted the Red/Purple lines from an open system to a closed system pretty much *in one go*; they didn't gate some stations and leave others ungated.

"Gates" in an open system (such as are found in parts of England) are mainly to prevent gawkers from wandering around the platforms; they don't really check the tickets in any real sense, they just check that you have some kind of ticket. To do that, they have to check *everyone* entering the platform; this is enabled by a standardized national ticketing system in the UK. But Amtrak tickets, LIRR tickets, and NJT tickets aren't the same....


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## VentureForth (Sep 22, 2014)

Even on Shinkansen routes in Japan, in addition to DOUBLE gating, there are conductors onboard to check the tickets. And every Shinkansen station is gated (only double gated where there is additional "local" traffic.


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## OBS (Sep 22, 2014)

I can give you my one person controlled study...I have spent many hours in the Acela boarding area, when Acela's were boarding. Literally every train I have observed has had people turned away by the usher because they either had regional tickets, or they had a ticket for a different Acela and either did not know or couldn't (sold out) change their ticket and wanted to board anyway. And this is just one station, Wash. DC.


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## VentureForth (Sep 22, 2014)

Yes. Many of us humans are extremely selfish and think there is no reason in the world why someone else should have a seat on a train instead of them.


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## PerRock (Sep 22, 2014)

neroden said:


> There's really very little point to gating some stations and not others. It's madness. If you don't gate every station on a route, then you still have to have the conductor check ALL the tickets on board the train (including those for people who got on at 'gated' stations), so basically, it's a gigantic waste of money and manpower to do a duplicate check of the tickets beforehand.
> 
> But go ahead, advocate for Amtrak to waste large amounts of money and manpower on useless, redundant, make-work activity which delays trains. I don't think anyone in Congress will support that.


Except that Amtrak already does this, that is the problem. At most of these larger stations, your ticket is checked by a gate agent in the station, then again on board the train by the conductor.

peter


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## jis (Sep 22, 2014)

There are various ways of handling the ticket/boarding pass.

Airlines universally have the ticket "lifted" and a boarding pass issued when you check in. The Boarding Pass is "lifted" at the boarding gate (usually) i.e. recorded as used, and that is the end of it.

In case of trains, predominantly, the ticket is "lifted" i.e. marked as used, during a check on board the train.

However there are a few large modes of operations where this is not the case.

One is where the ticket has to be validated when you board, and in effect gets "lifted" at validation, in the sens e that it cannot be used beyond the parameters set by the validation - either a specific time window or a specific train to a specific destination which must be boarded within a time window or some such.

This ticket may be further "lifted" on board the train or not. It may also be checked without being further "lifted" - POP checking being one variation of this.

I believe Amtrak will continue to do the final "lifting" of the ticket on board for the foreseeable future.

What is done at the gates is just reading the ticket to verify that the holder is at the right place. Some Amtrak Conductors insist on lifting the ticket at the gate or at the car door. Usually when the ticket is "lifted" off the train a piece of paper or something akin to a boarding card - airline style - is given to the passenger sometimes with a seat assigned.

In Japan and in UK the ticket gates merely ensure that only ticket holders of the right category gain access to the protected area. They usually do not "lift" the ticket specially for non commuter trains. For commuter trains they may validate with a time stamp rendering the ticket unusable beyond a time window from that point on. For trains specially with reservation, usually the ticket would be cheeked again on board.


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## VentureForth (Sep 22, 2014)

jis said:


> In Japan and in UK the ticket gates merely ensure that only ticket holders of the right category gain access to the protected area. They usually do not "lift" the ticket specially for non commuter trains. For commuter trains they may validate with a time stamp rendering the ticket unusable beyond a time window from that point on. For trains specially with reservation, usually the ticket would be cheeked again on board.


Well, I would say that in Japan (don't know about the UK) the ticket is lifted when you put it in the gate. You keep your ticket until you get off the train at your destination and as you exit the station, your ticket is verified for the distance (rail fare) is valid.

In the case of NFC tickets (Suica, etc), you scan where you start, you scan where you end, and the fare is deducted from your account.

Washington DC has a very similar ticketing system, except you can't buy a ticket from point A to B - you have to preload your ticket and if you have money left when you're done, too bad.


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## jis (Sep 22, 2014)

Yeah, I forgot that mode, which is how most RFID cards work at gated stations, or even at ungated ones. For example Croydon Tramlink there are no gates but you have to tap on and tap off. It is POP, so fare checkers simply verify that you tapped on from some credible place at some credible time. If you forget to tap off you get charged some max fare after the time window on the tap on expires.

Thanks for the correction.


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## afigg (Sep 22, 2014)

neroden said:


> Not really. I'd like to see a controlled study demonstrating that this has any reduction in the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or boarding without a ticket. I simply don't believe it. It's fiction.
> 
> Obviously there are plenty of passengers getting on the wrong train *with* the current gate dragons, and (duh) they board through the *ungated* commuter rail entrances to the platforms. If you want to prevent this, you have to gate the COMMUTER RAIL entrances... and that's what I said originally.
> 
> You can't create a gated station unless the commuter rail operators at the same station agree to it.


I was not writing about creating a gated system where the ticket is "lifted" at the gate. The purpose of the checks at the gates at NYP, WAS, PHL, BOS, etc is to verify that those boarding the train through the main path have valid and correct tickets. The goal is to sharply _reduce_ the number of passengers getting on the wrong train or not having a valid ticket. Most people who are aware of the other entrances to the platforms at NYP from the NJT and LIRR areas are also far more likely to be knowledgeable about Amtrak travel and have a valid eticket. A 100% closed system with pre-boarding checks at all of the stations on the NEC and connecting corridors is too expensive. And very difficult to implement with the multiple commuter train services and legacy stations.

But pre-boarding checks at the busiest stations which are the most confusing to navigate cut down on the number of passengers getting on the wrong train. Because intercity train travel is not routine for a lot of people, even along the NEC, from my observations, Amtrak gets a lot of passengers who don't know the differences between the trains, get confused, or don't understand that unlike a commuter train, the trains are mostly reserved. I have seen many confused passengers not sure of which line to get into or what to do in my travels through NYP and WAS.

NYP with its mix of Acelas, Regionals, Keystones, LD trains along with LIRR and NJT combined with the complicated concourse layout and the growth in daily passenger traffic over the past several decades results in many confused newbie passengers who could easily end up on the wrong train. NYP badly needs to install working displays at the Amtrak platform entrances and improve the wayfinding signs through the station. WAS has too small a waiting area for the current passenger volume from Amtrak, MARC, and VRE because too much of DC Union Station was turned over to retail or repurposed back in the 1980s. They need to hurry up and build the planned expanded waiting and boarding area over the lower level tracks with rebuilt wider platforms (some high level) for those tracks, but where the money will come from for that, don't know.

I think the plan is to install PIDs (Passenger Information Display) along the platforms for all the stations on the NEC and I would expect the stations on the connecting corridors. Those will help to keep people from the boarding the wrong train or missing their train. Amtrak can use the ADA compliance funds to pay for the PIDs, but with all the stakeholders at the different stations and upgrade plans for this or that stations, it is a long slow process to install better displays system wide.


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## afigg (Sep 22, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> Washington DC has a very similar ticketing system, except you can't buy a ticket from point A to B - you have to preload your ticket and if you have money left when you're done, too bad.


For DC Metro, you can still buy a paper ticket with the exact amount needed plus the $1 per trip paper ticket surcharge. The hard part is figuring out what the exact amount is, with the overly complex pricing structure. The SmarTrip cards are still $10 with $2 of that for the card and $8 for fares.
WMATA has started on a technology upgrade for their fare system. All of the ticket vending machines will be modified to dispense SmarTrip cards with user able to select the exact amount loaded on the card plus, yes, the $2 charge for the card. The paper tickets are being phased out. The most significant upgrade is to allow direct payments at the faregates (entering and exiting) from credit cards and smartphones, although the credit cards and smartphones with the right technology are not widely available yet (in the US).

But Amtrak just upgraded to eTickets. They have a full plate of technology and IT upgrades from what I can tell, before they start considering wireless eTicket validations from credit cards, smartphones, or embedded RIFF tags in our heads. (I joking about the last one, well, sort of.)


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## VentureForth (Sep 22, 2014)

I once drew up an awesome fare chart like they do in Japan and posted it to forums.railfan.net, but they went back and purged all the photos before 2007.  I don't have the computer I saved it on anymore.


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## PaulM (Sep 22, 2014)

> The ony place I recall tickets collected on the train by the conductor was I think, Norway.


As of a month ago, the only trains in Austria and Germany where ticket were NOT scanned on the train were the S-bahns (commuter trains), which employ the honor system.


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## neroden (Sep 22, 2014)

afigg said:


> NYP badly needs to install working displays at the Amtrak platform entrances and improve the wayfinding signs through the station.


You can say that again, and that applies to every station. Better signage would go a long way.



> I think the plan is to install PIDs (Passenger Information Display) along the platforms for all the stations on the NEC and I would expect the stations on the connecting corridors. Those will help to keep people from the boarding the wrong train or missing their train.


Very good idea.



> Amtrak can use the ADA compliance funds to pay for the PIDs,


I believe they're considered an ADA requirement (to help the deaf, mostly). They benefit everyone, though.



> but with all the stakeholders at the different stations and upgrade plans for this or that stations, it is a long slow process to install better displays system wide.


You would think that installing better signage would not be that difficult; it's not like coordinating plans for installing elevators.


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## Barciur (Sep 27, 2014)

I am currently sat on a westbound Keystone. A person in front of me is headed... to New York. R

The conductor who informed him of this fact specifically said "you are not the first person, I already caught a few people in the other car who got on the wrong train."

Looks like the gate dragons are doing a great job doesnt it...


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## PerRock (Sep 27, 2014)

I wonder how many people get on the wrong train on Metra, or any of the other Commuter Railroads on average?

peter


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## neroden (Sep 27, 2014)

What would be more useful than gate dragons would be big LED signage on the sides of the trains. (Something overlooked when designing the Viewliners, but it probably matters more for coaches anyway.)


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