# That time of year again. No, not Santa, not exactly



## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 16, 2013)

This, about December 16. was the traditional beginning of the wintertime Florida service for the snowbirds in the preAmtak days. That is the people who go south for the warmer weather especially in sleepers.

The season usually expired about April 24

This amounted to much juicier timetables in the winter. A given year round train which was, say, ten cars long in the summer might swell to 15 or more cars in the winter.

And in additional to extra cars on year round trains there were whole extra trains especially on the Atlantic Coast line from Boston and New York to Miami With names like Miamian, Florida Special and Vacationer. And the Southern RRs New Royal Palm from the Great Lakes to Florida

Again we are especially talking about sleeping cars and some trains even being all sleeper., And sometimes sleepers had to be borrowed from other lines making the trains looking even more interesting-

Anybody on here ever heard of the Orange Blossom Special? It was a winter time train on the Seaboard. though it bowed out in the very early 50s

Yep, trains from all over ,from New York, from Detroit and Cincinnati, from Chicago and St Louis and even from Kansas CIty.

Summer timetables looked very skinny and dull by comparison

That took a lot of cooperation for the many competing railroads to agree to the same calendar


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## the_traveler (Dec 16, 2013)

Now if Amtrak could just do that!


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## Anderson (Dec 16, 2013)

If only Amtrak could do an off-season lease from VIA...*sighs*

Even if none of their stuff could clear NYP, putting the cars on at PHL or WAS (or indeed running some Cap-Meteor through cars) would help the Florida trains.


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## the_traveler (Dec 17, 2013)

Anderson said:


> If only Amtrak could do an off-season lease from VIA...*sighs*
> 
> Even if none of their stuff could clear NYP, putting the cars on at PHL or WAS


Could not be PHL either - they will not clear the BAL tunnels either! I like the idea of thru cars from the CL though. Or better yet (since it's a Superliner) have a CHI-WAS-MIA train!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 17, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > If only Amtrak could do an off-season lease from VIA...*sighs*
> ...


The winter time Florida Special from New York to Miami had a sleeper dome from Richmond to Miami


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 17, 2013)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> This, about December 16. was the traditional beginning of the wintertime Florida service for the snowbirds in the preAmtak days. That is the people who go south for the warmer weather especially in sleepers.
> 
> The season usually expired about April 24
> 
> ...


I was going to college in the Louisville area from 1966 to 1971. For a while I lived right across the road from the PRR tracks north of Jeffersonville and would see the South Wind come through. Until 1969, you could just about set your watch by the timing. It was interesting to see the array of cars that would be added starting on December 16. Occasionally, a Nickel Plate Sleeper borrowed from the N&W would show up on the Southwind. Nickel Plate didn't run many passenger trains, but they did invest in modern streamlined cars after WWII. I remember 1 or 2 years where the Southwind actually ran an extra daily section a couple of days during the peak holiday season. It normally ran every other day alternating with the City of Miami which I also think ran some extra sections so it was daily for a few days. Unfortunately, the Chicago to Florida passenger train market dried up with the Floridian which ran very late and was totally undependable so many passengers said "never again".


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## Anderson (Dec 17, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > If only Amtrak could do an off-season lease from VIA...*sighs*
> ...


I was thinking strictly sleepers, which could clear NYP but for the third rail. After all, they cleared the tunnels for many years once upon a time...it's just the toilets that are at issue. But you're right...2-3 through cars between the Cap and the Meteor would do wonders, and you could promote a BOS-WAS Regional/Acela connection on top of that to channel traffic to it.


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## Ryan (Dec 17, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > If only Amtrak could do an off-season lease from VIA...*sighs*
> ...


Depends on the equipment, the Baltimore tunnels are bigger (MARC's Kawasaki bilevels will fit in Baltimore but not New York) and don't have third rail.


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## jis (Dec 17, 2013)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


Yep, just go back to thrice a week Empire Builder or CZ to find the cars to do a daily Superliner CHI - WAS - MIA service .... No no no.... just kidding!  As a bonus just run it from the Twin Cities all the way to Miami while we are at it.


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## the_traveler (Dec 17, 2013)

Thrice a week EB? :huh: BNSF is doing that for Amtrak already!


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## jis (Dec 17, 2013)

When the EB became a Superliner train initially it ran thrice a week only. Even before that there were periods when it ran thrice a week only. So it is not like this is the first time such has happened either.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 17, 2013)

jphjaxfl said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > This, about December 16. was the traditional beginning of the wintertime Florida service for the snowbirds in the preAmtak days. That is the people who go south for the warmer weather especially in sleepers.
> ...


I remember that beautiful Nickel Plate equipment. I sometimes saw that on the Dixieland and also on the Georgian..


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 17, 2013)

The Hill Country Flyer (Austin Steam Train) here owns a Nickel Plate Sleeper that Serves as One of the First Class (Air Conditioned and Snacks Included)Cars as Opposed to the Old Red Wooden Pennsylvania RR Coaches that are the Cheap Seats!!!

It's a True Rainbow Train with Pullmans and a Snack Car from Long Gone Fallen Flag RRs and the Rebuilt SP Steam Engine is Due Back on the Rails in the Spring of 2014 after 10 Years of Rehab!!!!!!!!!!!


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 18, 2013)

Anderson said:


> If only Amtrak could do an off-season lease from VIA...*sighs*
> 
> Even if none of their stuff could clear NYP, putting the cars on at PHL or WAS (or indeed running some Cap-Meteor through cars) would help the Florida trains.


Amtrak did that back in the ‘70s. They leased “Chateau” Sleepers (from CP then….but same ones still in use today on VIA) for through service between Montreal and Miami.

Here’s a link to the Museum of Railroad Timetable for November 1974.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19741115&item=0033


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 18, 2013)

My understanding is that there ware often great differences between northbound and southbound traffic.

The first part of winter, everyone heading south, very few returning., trains relatively empty with all those extra pullmans.

Then with the winter drawing to a close, big crowds northbound, not so big southbound.

No way around that.


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## jis (Dec 18, 2013)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > If only Amtrak could do an off-season lease from VIA...*sighs*
> ...


Also notice the use of Gare Windsor instead of Gare Centrale in Montreal by the Adirondack in '74. The Montrealer used Gare Centrale even back then. This was incidentally before the Chateau Sleepers got their enhanced holding tanks which foul the third rail in the vicinity of New York.


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 18, 2013)

Yes.....Amtrak used Gare Windsor until 1986 and had the last “intercity” service there besides commuter trains. VIA had already moved their xCP trains to Central Station two years earlier in 1984.

>>>>>>>

Note “Miami Fl” chalked on the sign board for the Washingtonian s/b (Montrealer n/b) in Gare Centrale.


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## John Bredin (Dec 18, 2013)

Gotta love a picture taken at 7:08pm at the "wrong" end of the stairs from a train leaving at 7:10pm.


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 18, 2013)

John Bredin said:


> Gotta love a picture taken at 7:08pm at the "wrong" end of the stairs from a train leaving at 7:10pm.


Interesting observation! Don’t know how I managed that but don’t think I would have cut it that close for a couple of photos and risked missing the train! I probably found out the departure was being delayed for a connection and decided to grab some shots while waiting........That was a longggggggg time ago!

But anyways......I did make it and here’s some shots at White River Jct. later that evening along with the consist. 















260 E8A

263 E8A

1518 Baggage Dorm

Henderson Sleeper

2684 Sleeper

Nash County Sleeper

8330 Diner Lounge

3302 “Le Pub”

5455 Coach

5607 Coach

4595 Coach

4447 Coach

Chateau Levis CPR Sleeper

Chateau Dollier CPR Sleeper


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 18, 2013)

Can anybody think of why April 24 was chosen as the expiration date each year for the winter service?

December 16 makes sense for the beginning date because of Christmas.

But what of the Spring? Was it school schedules, school break, religious holy days at various times, some kind of travel movement I know nothing about? Maybe even something sports related? Maybe something Union related? Maybe something weather forecast related? Maybe something the hotels or the chamber of commerce wanted? Keep in mind we are talking about roughly a dozen railroads.

That it had to be uniform to work I completely understand

Maybe they just drew a date out of a bowl?


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## the_traveler (Dec 18, 2013)

The only thing I can think of is Easter or school vacations. December 16 is around the Holidays, which is the same every year, but Easter and/or school vacations change each year. Thus I'm confused also.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 19, 2013)

The more I think about; it the more it seems the RRs probably did coordinate with hotels and such.

Not unlike the understanding we used to have that the summer season kinda goes from Memorial Day to Labor Day.

But that does not specifically explain April 24 itself.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 19, 2013)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> The more I think about; it the more it seems the RRs probably did coordinate with hotels and such.
> 
> Not unlike the understanding we used to have that the summer season kinda goes from Memorial Day to Labor Day.
> 
> But that does not specifically explain April 24 itself.


Bill: Besides the Santa Fe and their Arrangement with the Harvey House Hotels and Restaurants were there any other RRs that had Similar Deals with Land Based Businesses since the RRs used to Pride themselves on Trains"Running on Time "and you could Set your (Railroad) Watch by them!


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 19, 2013)

I don't think it was specifically April 24 but "about April 24" as the OP stated. And was roughly around the date that railroads traditionally issued new timetables at the change from Standard to Daylight Time.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 19, 2013)

jimhudson said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > The more I think about; it the more it seems the RRs probably did coordinate with hotels and such.
> ...


Not that I know of.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Dec 19, 2013)

NS VIA Fan said:


> I don't think it was specifically April 24 but "about April 24" as the OP stated. And was roughly around the date that railroads traditionally issued new timetables at the change from Standard to Daylight Time.


That is interesting and I never thought about it.. But then I realized RRs did not start using Daylight time until the mid 50s and the snowbirds existed well before that


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## Ryan (Dec 20, 2013)

April 25th is the latest date that Easter can fall. Not sure if that's the reason, but that's something that happens then.


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