# A Poke in the Eye with a Sharp Stick by AGR



## RRrich (Dec 24, 2010)

Basically, I booked a trip with AGR and they cancelled it because it was too good a deal. Apparently, Amtrak became upset with their Canadian subcontractor who was running AGR as they were sending passengers all around the country on very expensive trips for very few AGR points. Railfans called these trips _Loopholes. _These trips were booked in accord with the AGR rules as they were interpreted at the time and there was nothing immoral, unethical or fattening about them. Although they were unprofitable for Amtrak they built up great customer loyalty.

In March 2010 I booked one of these trips, which involved a connection in Portland OR. The trip was to be in February 2011. In December 2010 I found out that schedules had changed and the connection in Portland would not work so I called AGR which had been moved from the Canadian subcontractor to Amtrak offices in California. We were able to modify my itinerary but the length of the trip in comparison to its cost caused the AGR agent to show the reservation to her supervisor who emailed her boss in Washington DC about the trip and the boss said (basically) "Cancel It"

I made a reservation with Amtrak through their Canadian subcontractor in accord with the rules as they were interpreted at that time. Then Amtrak seems to have decided that that was too expensive so they fired them. I feel that I had a valid contract with Amtrak and that if their subcontractor was making unprofitable deals they should have been replaced but the deals made when they represented Amtrak should have been honored.


----------



## Ryan (Dec 24, 2010)

Agreed.

You can post on Flyertalk and see if AGR insider is any help, but I doubt she'll be of any help.


----------



## the_traveler (Dec 24, 2010)

I agree!

Even airlines or hotels who post a mistake fare (like JFK to Asia for $99 instead of $999) because of a computer programming problem, honor it. So why shouldn't Amtrak honor a legal (at the time of booking) trip?


----------



## RRrich (Dec 24, 2010)

Ryan said:


> Agreed.
> 
> You can post on Flyertalk and see if AGR insider is any help, but I doubt she'll be of any help.


I did that.

Great minds think alike :giggle:


----------



## rrdude (Dec 24, 2010)

RRrich said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed.
> ...


I'm too lazy to look, but I'm betting the "Terms and Conditions" allow AGR to do just about any dang thing they please. They are usually EXTREMELY one-sided, on the side of the carrier........
Still SUX though, I raise quite a ruckus if it happened to me......


----------



## PRR 60 (Dec 24, 2010)

This is a remarkable story. Why am I not surprised?

It is interesting that your profile shows that your S+ for 2011. AGR can certainly see that, and yet they still pulled this stunt on you. It has often been mentioned that, compared to airline programs, AGR does very little for its elite members. There is no recognition of status when dealing with issues that require some consideration. This is a perfect example. As S+ you are not just some slob who rarely uses Amtrak and is trying to scam them for a joyride. You are a good customer who is only trying to get what you are entitled to get. The fact that it was a bad deal for Amtrak is not relevant. it was a legit deal, made through AGR (contractor or not, still AGR), and AGR should honor it.

I would suggest that you go back to FT and PM "AGR Insider" with your story. The folks who act as "AGR Insider" have not made a public posting at FT since November 10, however, the profile shows they still visit the site. I would clearly state that you are S+, had a valid and legal reservation, and had that reservation taken away solely by the actions of Amtrak in breaking the 14/28 connection at PDX and then decided to retroactively apply a new policy to your existing reservation. Belonging to what AGR defines as their top customer group, you deserve better than the treatment given to you by AGR. All AGR members do, but S+ members certainly do.

Can you imagine the reaction if United treated a 1K like this? It would not be pretty.

This is one more datapoint that suggests that Amtrak's bringing AGR in-house has not been a good thing for AGR members. We are now dealing with Amtrak employees, and it shows.


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Dec 24, 2010)

PRR 60 said:


> This is a remarkable story. Why am I not surprised?
> 
> It is interesting that your profile shows that your S+ for 2011. AGR can certainly see that, and yet they still pulled this stunt on you. It has often been mentioned that, compared to airline programs, AGR does very little for its elite members. There is no recognition of status when dealing with issues that require some consideration. This is a perfect example. As S+ you are not just some slob who rarely uses Amtrak and is trying to scam them for a joyride. You are a good customer who is only trying to get what you are entitled to get. The fact that it was a bad deal for Amtrak is not relevant. it was a legit deal, made through AGR (contractor or not, still AGR), and AGR should honor it.
> 
> ...


Slightly off topic, but I don't think that even being elite with airlines does anything anymore my dad has been CO Platinum for at least 5 years now, and CO has never done anything special for him. Last year he spent new years eve in Cleveland because they couldn't get him on a flight for 5 days. This year he will be missing Christmas courtesy of Continental airlines...I think all these programs are meaningless at this point.

Now I have to agree that AGR can't just decide that a reservation you have is no longer "okay" and just decide to cancel your trip. That is really disappointing.


----------



## Shanghai (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm surprized at Amtrak's response to cancel your trip.

I would assume that if the CS schedule had not been changed,

Amtrak would have honored your route as originally booked.

My suggestion is to contact the AGR executive in WAS and

review the issue with him/her and if their decision remained

to cancel your original trip, ask that the executive put it

in writing to you. Now you have strong support to go to

Boardman's office for an appeal.


----------



## RRrich (Dec 24, 2010)

Shanghai said:


> I'm surprized at Amtrak's response to cancel your trip.
> 
> I would assume that if the CS schedule had not been changed,
> 
> ...


Who might that be?


----------



## Rail Freak (Dec 24, 2010)

RRrich said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprized at Amtrak's response to cancel your trip.
> ...


The Prez!!!

Good Luck

When I rescheduled my FEB Trip using #14/#28 connection ( because of the new track work delays), the agent & supervisor told me they wouldnt spring for the Portland Hotel because that connection was not a garaunteed connection!?!?!??? I did not argue for reasons I'll explain at a later date!


----------



## the_traveler (Dec 24, 2010)

I agree that you should address the letter *DIRECTLY* to the attention of Joe Boardman!

Once when I had a number of very bad experiences on the same trip, I wrote *DIRECTLY* to the then prez - and received a $500 voucher!


----------



## AlanB (Dec 25, 2010)

RRrich said:


> Shanghai said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprized at Amtrak's response to cancel your trip.
> ...


Michael Blakey is the Senior Director of AGR; there is no higher voice within AGR to appeal to. The "main" AGR Insider over at Flyertalk Vicki, is one of Michael's main assistants.

After Mr. Blakey, the next stop is the President's office.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Dec 25, 2010)

To me the term "loophole" implies you found a way to do something shady that's still within the rules or is not explicitly disallowed. Loopholes are not the sort of thing most people would claim as ethical or moral with a straight face. The fact that you felt the need to _preemptively_ defend yourself in the opening post shows that you already knew loopholes were questionable before you started this thread. So you squeaked one in and then got screwed by a schedule change. That's the sort of complication that can arise from using loopholes. You can always take it to court if you feel you were truly wronged.


----------



## Anderson (Dec 25, 2010)

My view on loopholes is this: If they've been operating a program for ten years and they've structured it a specific way, it's probably that way for a reason. Also, "loophole" in a lot of these cases generally means a comparatively large net benefit.

For the same date in mid-January, January 19th, I get the following prices for a roomette WAS-CHI (20k points):

Capitol Limited: $213

Lake Shore Limited: $328 (includes a Regional connector WAS-NYP in the booking)

Cardinal: $528

Same day, WAS-MIA (15k points):

Silver Star: $558

Silver Meteor: $483

I would regard the differential here to be a loophole (and a very large part of why I intend to use my points going to and from Florida...ORL is about $40 cheaper in both cases, but both are _far_ more expensive than taking the CL to Chicago). Yes, I know that a lot of the underlying issue is that the Cardinal and the Silvers are single level trains, but that's still a 2:1 to 2.5:1 differential in price. In terms of redemption cost per point, the Silver Star is a bit under 27 points/$1 while the CL is just under 94/$1...a ratio of almost 3.5:1.

If I had to hazard a guess, the trip in question was probably either San Diego or LAX to somewhere in Montana...which will get a through booking at the one zone price, even though you're probably going 1500-2000 miles. Yes, that's a "loophole"...as are a _lot_ of north-south trips the way they set things up.


----------



## Ispolkom (Dec 26, 2010)

Anderson said:


> If I had to hazard a guess, the trip in question was probably either San Diego or LAX to somewhere in Montana...which will get a through booking at the one zone price, even though you're probably going 1500-2000 miles. Yes, that's a "loophole"...as are a _lot_ of north-south trips the way they set things up.


No, the trip you describe would still be perfectly legal. The loophole the original poster was using was considerably different, and involved the definition of zonal travel. Before April Fools Day, 2010 you could generally (even then it didn't always work with every agent) book a circuitous route for fewer zones than you can now. Take travel from Atlanta to Chicago. Atlanta is on the border of the central zone, and Chicago is in the central zone. You could actually book the route ATL-WAS-CHI as a one-zone award, since you are traveling from a central zone city to a central zone city. I'm serious. The fact that much of your travel was in the eastern zone was beside the point.

This meant that you could pay 20k AGR points to travel ATL-WAS-CHI in a deluxe bedroom, when it cost 30k points to travel just WAS-CHI. Or in my case you could travel ABQ-LAX-PDX-MOT and DEN-SAC-PDX-MSP as one-zone awards.

The most extensive loophole trips ever booked were probably Slidell-Washington-Chicago-Los Angeles-Portland and the notorious Kansas City-Los Angeles-Portland-Columbus, WI runs, which both were 2-zone trips, and if I had to guess, I'd bet the OP's trip was the Kansas City one.

AGR has never actually spelled out what its rules are for long-distance travel, and never explicitly said that these sort of loophole trips were either legal or illegal. Just one fine day you couldn't book them anymore. This lack of documentation might make it hard for the OP to argue that his original award trip was ever anything other than a mistake made by an agent.

Not that I'm condoning AGR's actions. I'd be just as livid as the OP if this cancellation happened to me.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 26, 2010)

The "Loopholes" actually still exist; it just costs more Points to book them, and in the case of the Kansas City-Columbus Loophole, it's still a good deal, at least in a Roomette, as you get 5 nights on a train (and 5 pounds heavier from all the eating!). Just the nature of Amtrak's routes creates some good travel opportunities if you sniff them out. For example, I can go 1 Zone Norman-FTW-CHI-NOL for 15,000 Points or 2 Zone Norman-FTW-CHI-WAS-MIA for 20,000 Points.


----------



## RRrich (Dec 26, 2010)

I was told by an AGR supervisor that if you reverse direction it is the start of a new trip.

Of course the agent booking the trip has to notice it. Based on my experience, even if you have a reservation (and probably a ticket), AGR wil cancel if it is noticed and again probably, not tell you.

You gotta love AGR :help:


----------



## the_traveler (Dec 26, 2010)

Ispolkom said:


> The most extensive loophole trips ever booked were probably Slidell-Washington-Chicago-Los Angeles-Portland and the notorious Kansas City-Los Angeles-Portland-Columbus, WI runs, which both were 2-zone trips, and if I had to guess, I'd bet the OP's trip was the Kansas City one.


You're partly correct.

SDL-PDX was 2 zones, but KCY (or KWD)-CBS was only 1 zone. (Both KCY [or KWD] and CBS are in the central zone!



)


----------



## Ispolkom (Dec 27, 2010)

the_traveler said:


> SDL-PDX was 2 zones, but KCY (or KWD)-CBS was only 1 zone. (Both KCY [or KWD] and CBS are in the central zone!
> 
> 
> 
> )


You're right, of course. I had forgotten how very loopy that loophole was.


----------



## Anderson (Dec 27, 2010)

*stares* SLI-WAS-CHI-SAC-PDX actually still _books_ on Amtrak.com...or I can do SLI-WAS-CHI-SEA-PDX

Can someone _please_ tell me why that all doesn't auto-route through NOL instead?


----------



## Rail Freak (Dec 27, 2010)

Anderson said:


> *stares* SLI-WAS-CHI-SAC-PDX actually still _books_ on Amtrak.com...or I can do SLI-WAS-CHI-SEA-PDX
> 
> Can someone _please_ tell me why that all doesn't auto-route through NOL instead?


Must overnite in NOL!


----------



## the_traveler (Dec 27, 2010)

Rail Freak said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > *stares* SLI-WAS-CHI-SAC-PDX actually still _books_ on Amtrak.com...or I can do SLI-WAS-CHI-SEA-PDX
> ...


Besides having to overnight in NOL, the hotel is on the passenger's dime! I'm sure there would be many passengers who would complain that "Amtrak sold me a ticket from Slidell (*SDL*) to LAX, but I didn't know that I had to pay for a hotel in New Orleans, and I didn't bring money for a hotel"!


----------



## Ispolkom (Dec 27, 2010)

NYP-NOL-LAX does appear in amtrak.com, though, and I believe it has been booked as a three-zone award, even though there is an overnight in New Orleans.


----------



## the_traveler (Dec 27, 2010)

Ispolkom said:


> NYP-NOL-LAX does appear in amtrak.com, though, and I believe it has been booked as a three-zone award, even though there is an overnight in New Orleans.


Yes, but the passenger must pay for the overnight (not AGR) and take the next train out. (You can not stay in NOL for 4-5 days!



)


----------



## RRrich (Jan 8, 2011)

Well I guess my AGR trip is cancelled as is my liking for anything officially Amtrak. I realize that this board and the people here are not officially connected to Amtrak so that is fine.

I find it ironic that the Amtrak Loyalty Program has caused me to no longer want to ride Amtrak for pleasure and will only ride when there is good reason - cheaper, faster, whatever.

Now to dump my AGR points and Amtrak vouchers.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jan 8, 2011)

Frequent use clubs are always subject to change. I've already been burned by both American and United in the past and Southwest is about to change their whole frequent flyer club around in a couple months. That's just the way the cookie crumbles I guess.


----------



## the_traveler (Jan 8, 2011)

RRrich said:


> Now to dump my AGR points and Amtrak vouchers.


I'll *FORCE* myself to take them off your hands!


----------



## Edgefan (Jan 8, 2011)

With this thread brought back to the top again, I had hoped there was some sort of good news resolution to be found in here. I am so sorry RRrich that issues were not able to be worked out. As for most of us, we are walking billboards for Amtrak and try to thwart any maliciousness toward Amtrak, within reason. (I defend Amtrak to my mom all the time! She had several really bad experiences and is of the age where she shouldn't and won't tolerate repeat occurances) I have put myself in your shoes RRrich and I understand. I appreciate what you have brought to the board with your past work experience etc. I would hope you continue to contribute here. As for YOU Traveler!, where in the heck do you come up with these emoticons! :blink:


----------



## RRrich (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words 

I came to this board because I was in a yucky situation that was improved by riding the train, and I wanted to know about riding the train. If I was still in that situation, I would still take the train. The trip that was canceled was just for fun. Just for fun no longer includes Amtrak! :angry2:

I intend to keep reading this forum, <_< but since I am no longer very interested in Amtrak, I fear that I shall fade away. :mellow: Thanks AGR



Edgefan said:


> With this thread brought back to the top again, I had hoped there was some sort of good news resolution to be found in here. I am so sorry RRrich that issues were not able to be worked out. As for most of us, we are walking billboards for Amtrak and try to thwart any maliciousness toward Amtrak, within reason. (I defend Amtrak to my mom all the time! She had several really bad experiences and is of the age where she shouldn't and won't tolerate repeat occurances) I have put myself in your shoes RRrich and I understand. I appreciate what you have brought to the board with your past work experience etc. I would hope you continue to contribute here. As for YOU Traveler!, where in the heck do you come up with these emoticons! :blink:


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 8, 2011)

Aww you'll get over it-- its not a big deal in the long term, is it?


----------



## the_traveler (Jan 8, 2011)

Edgefan said:


> As for YOU Traveler!, where in the heck do you come up with these emoticons! :blink:


I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer (Jan 8, 2011)

http://yoursmiles.org/

Just use IMG tags.


----------



## amamba (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow, that is crazy that they cancelled your trip. Were they willing to rebook it for you for additional points? Just curious how many points they would consider that trip to be.

Secondly, have you considered paying for part of the trip in order to still do it? All in all, I am terribly sorry to hear that AGR was not willing to work with you. What a disappointment and I understand exactly where you are coming from. I do think its pretty unconscionable that your trip was booked and that the only thing that threw it for a loop was the misconnect because of the trackwork.


----------

