# Old Rail Map Question



## Anderson (Feb 11, 2012)

So, I was looking at this map:

http://www.narprail.org/cms/images/uploads/map67.pdf

I'm just wondering...there's an isolated line along the coast in northern CA, and one in southern CO. Who ran those lines?


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## johnny.menhennet (Feb 12, 2012)

'mnot sure if the Rio Grande ran that still or not, but it looks to be near the current Durango and Silverton line. In Northern California, I believe that that i sthe route of Northwestern Pacific. The SMART line from Larkspur to Cloverdale will run along this right of way.


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## Anderson (Feb 12, 2012)

Those both make sense. There are some other oddball isolated sections in the '62 map.


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## George Harris (Feb 12, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Those both make sense. There are some other oddball isolated sections in the '62 map.


The one in Colorado is the Durango and Silverton narrow gauge. It was D&RGW in 1962.


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## Anderson (Feb 12, 2012)

Another question: How did the lines end up isolated from the larger network? I notice more situations like this in '62 than in '67 (a lot of the isolated runs were dying off); how did the isolated service hang on when the connection to the larger network was lost? Lousy roads in the area?


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 12, 2012)

In the case of the Durango-Silverton train, it became a tourist attraction while the rest of the narrow gauge routes lost their passenger trains and eventually their tracks! Its popularity kept it running. Eventually, it was recognized for what it is, a tourist train, not an intercity service, and sold to a new non-common carrier owner.

The Northwestern Pacific served an isolated area, so the ICC or California railroad commission may have ordered it to continue while its connections were discontinued.

Some of the other routes shown on the map may have been mixed trains kept in service by state commerce commissions.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Feb 12, 2012)

Anybody know what is the rail line from Lincoln to Billings? Which train ran on it and who operated it? Burlington Route?


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## Anderson (Feb 13, 2012)

Checking the '56 Guide that I have, that would be the CB&Q. Train 43 WB, 42-20 EB. There was some complicate car shuffling involved from what I can tell, but the train was a CB&Q operation that offered a transfer at Billings to either Great Northern or Northern Pacific to continue onto SEA/PDX; the CB&Q also offered another transfer from Billings to Denver (and ultimately Houston).


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## TCRT (Feb 13, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Checking the '56 Guide that I have, that would be the CB&Q. Train 43 WB, 42-20 EB. There was some complicate car shuffling involved from what I can tell, but the train was a CB&Q operation that offered a transfer at Billings to either Great Northern or Northern Pacific to continue onto SEA/PDX; the CB&Q also offered another transfer from Billings to Denver (and ultimately Houston).


This service was involved in a rather infamous abandonment, whereby when the authorization to abandon was given, the Burlington immediately terminated the train midway through its run, stranding some understandably furious passengers in a small town in Nebraska.


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## Anderson (Feb 13, 2012)

TCRT said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Checking the '56 Guide that I have, that would be the CB&Q. Train 43 WB, 42-20 EB. There was some complicate car shuffling involved from what I can tell, but the train was a CB&Q operation that offered a transfer at Billings to either Great Northern or Northern Pacific to continue onto SEA/PDX; the CB&Q also offered another transfer from Billings to Denver (and ultimately Houston).
> ...


...wow. Even SP never pulled a stunt like _that_ _(_well, at least as far as I know...with SP, you never can tell). Do you have a link to a story on that? It seems...really, without other precedent aside from outright corporate collapses.


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## trainman74 (Feb 13, 2012)

Anderson said:


> ...wow. Even SP never pulled a stunt like _that_ _(_well, at least as far as I know...with SP, you never can tell). Do you have a link to a story on that? It seems...really, without other precedent aside from outright corporate collapses.


The Chicago, Aurora & Elgin commuter interurban line discontinued passenger service at noon on Wednesday, July 3, 1957 (basically, the instant they got a final court ruling allowing the discontinuation). This meant that people who had taken the CA&E to work that morning had to scramble to find a different way home from downtown Chicago.


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 13, 2012)

I believe the Southern Railroad and L&N also played the "stop the train where it's at when the court orders a shutdown" stunt. The Southern would also get an OK from a state commerce commission to stop service on one line within that state. In the next state, the train would operate from one middle of nowhere place near the state line to another no place. Since no one wanted to ride from nowhere to nowhere, they would have an excuse to kill the train in the neighboring state.


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## Anderson (Feb 13, 2012)

MikefromCrete said:


> I believe the Southern Railroad and L&N also played the "stop the train where it's at when the court orders a shutdown" stunt. The Southern would also get an OK from a state commerce commission to stop service on one line within that state. In the next state, the train would operate from one middle of nowhere place near the state line to another no place. Since no one wanted to ride from nowhere to nowhere, they would have an excuse to kill the train in the neighboring state.


Well, there's a difference between that and the stunts described above. It is one thing to get oddly truncated services (such as the Pelican stopping at Bristol, for an off-the-cuff example) and entirely another to cut service in the middle of a travel cycle and/or with passengers onboard, discontinuation notices or not. Also, I'd argue that the partial operations you describe are a side-effect of messy policy and stupid states (i.e. it would have made more sense if a state, noting that service X was a through service, gave permission to cut the service as soon as permission was given by the neighboring state to cut things back...i.e. Florida would give someone permission to cut train X back to Jacksonville, and permission to cut it back the rest of the way once Georgia agreed to allow a cutback to Savannah) while mid-run cuts are ridiculous (at the _very_ least, I'd argue for requiring the railroad to offer return passage to their starting point on that train free of charge...hey, the cars have to get back somehow!).


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## TCRT (Feb 13, 2012)

Anderson said:


> TCRT said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


My info comes from this other forum, whose author cites a printed source.


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## Anderson (Feb 14, 2012)

I wish I could have been at that hearing!

Also, I'm not sure if it's just inflation at work...but somehow, a loss of $844,000 on a long distance route seems paltry.


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## railiner (Feb 14, 2012)

TCRT said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Checking the '56 Guide that I have, that would be the CB&Q. Train 43 WB, 42-20 EB. There was some complicate car shuffling involved from what I can tell, but the train was a CB&Q operation that offered a transfer at Billings to either Great Northern or Northern Pacific to continue onto SEA/PDX; the CB&Q also offered another transfer from Billings to Denver (and ultimately Houston).
> ...


That was indeed uncharacteristic behavior from one of the best of all passenger railroads. The lawyers and bean counters must have prevailed over the public relations people in that case.

The only analogy I could think of to explain that action, would be like at an NFL football game....there is an official ruling on the field of play that is disputable.

The offense, if the ruling was in their favor, will try to quickly get off the next play, before a timeout can be called to check tbe play on videotape, and possibly reverse the ruling.

So what I am saying in this case, is the lawyers are afraid if they don't instantly stop service, the opposition will get some higher court to stay the order. Reading the link TCRT provided, apparently that did not work, as they were forced to temporarily reinstate service anyway...until they finally won the discontinuance.


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## Anderson (Feb 14, 2012)

Yeah...it seems like they were shooting for a _fait accompli_ with the discontinuation. It also looks like it backfired _badly_.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Feb 15, 2012)

Anderson said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the Southern Railroad and L&N also played the "stop the train where it's at when the court orders a shutdown" stunt. The Southern would also get an OK from a state commerce commission to stop service on one line within that state. In the next state, the train would operate from one middle of nowhere place near the state line to another no place. Since no one wanted to ride from nowhere to nowhere, they would have an excuse to kill the train in the neighboring state.
> ...



One instance that got a lot of national publicity was when the L&N discontinued the southbound Humming Bird on the spot while people were in the diner eating breakfast while the train was stopped in Birmingham.

There was no alternative transportation provided.

I doubt they got many tips that morning.

Some time later a judge attempted to restore the service but it did not work as cars were scattered around, no longer available.


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