# Will dining cars resume 12/15/20?/Flexible dining extended to May 2021?



## CTANut (Nov 22, 2020)

I heard that Amtrak may resume dining car service on December 15th, according to their website. I am not sure whether the suspension may be extended or not.


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## LinPhil (Nov 22, 2020)

It's a revenue issue (Since It's available on the Auto Train). They didn't put Flexible Dining on their new tri-weekly timetables which makes me think they expect the tri-Weekly service to last longer...


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## Maglev (Nov 22, 2020)

I expect Flexible Dining will be extended beyond Dec. 15.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 22, 2020)

Maglev said:


> I expect Flexible Dining will be extended beyond Dec. 15.


This one seems to be a "no brainer" since so many OBS have been Furloughed!


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## Sidney (Nov 22, 2020)

With no end in sight to this pedemic,I doubt full service dining will return on December 15,or ever. Since we are stuck with flex dining,some variety would be most welcome like sandwiches and burgers.


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## me_little_me (Nov 22, 2020)

The real question is "Will traditional dining EVER come back?".

Possibly, if the new administration can get enough Amtrak funding and shoves a requirement for traditional dining down Amtrak executives' throats.


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## BoulderCO (Nov 22, 2020)

My best case scenario for conventional dining returning is 2Q 2021 - but only IF Amtrak gets more support and $$ from the new administration.


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## Acela150 (Nov 22, 2020)

Maglev said:


> I expect Flexible Dining will be extended beyond Dec. 15.


I sadly agree with this. 


Bob Dylan said:


> This one seems to be a "no brainer" since so many OBS have been Furloughed!


This is a very accurate statement Jim. 


Sidney said:


> With no end in sight to this pedemic,I doubt full service dining will return on December 15,or ever.


While their "isn't end in sight" these things do NOT last forever! 

I'll also add that with a new administration incoming. I fully expect some big names to be removed from their positions at Amtrak. I can tell you that many a railfan and Amtrak supporters are almost begging for Stephen Gardiner to be kicked to the curb and then some. Simply cause he along with the Board are behind some of the horrific decisions that have taken place at Amtrak over the past 4 years.


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## Ferroequinologist (Nov 23, 2020)

Outdoor dining could be set up on the roof of trains.


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## tonys96 (Nov 23, 2020)

Sidney said:


> With no end in sight to this pedemic,I doubt full service dining will return on December 15,or ever. Since we are stuck with flex dining,some variety would be most welcome like sandwiches and burgers.


Heartbreakingly, I doubt the return also.


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## tgstubbs1 (Nov 23, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Outdoor dining could be set up on the roof of trains.


They could have outdoor lounge car.


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## railiner (Nov 23, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> They could have outdoor lounge car.


Ultradomes on ARR have open sided ends...


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## Acela150 (Nov 23, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Outdoor dining could be set up on the roof of trains.



This is hilarious!


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## tim49424 (Nov 23, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Outdoor dining could be set up on the roof of trains.



On the California Zephyr, there is a SCA that "tries" to convince his passengers there is an elevator to the top of the car where a swimming pool is located. I'll bet that the outdoor dining is in above an adjacent car next to the pool.


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## Charles785 (Nov 23, 2020)

C'mon, it's a little too cold this time of year for that outdoor dining and swimming on top of the car; I'd rather retire to my sleeping car bedroom and enjoy the built-in fireplace.


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## west point (Nov 23, 2020)

Regular dining may return 4Q calendar year 2021 . That is based on most everyone who is willing has taken inoculations for covid-19 protection. Hopefully the immunity will last several years. Sort of like some inoculations need renewal ?


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## tim49424 (Nov 23, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> C'mon, it's a little too cold this time of year for that outdoor dining and swimming on top of the car; I'd rather retire to my sleeping car bedroom and enjoy the built-in fireplace.



Would it help if I told you my trip with him on the CZ was in March and we were headed into a blizzard (bomb cyclone) just west of Omaha, which included 90 mph winds near Colorado Springs? He said the pool was heated. Speaking of pool, the alternative entertainment was in the far lower part of the car, with pool tables and a casino....also accessible via the elevator.


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## me_little_me (Nov 23, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> C'mon, it's a little too cold this time of year for that outdoor dining and swimming on top of the car; I'd rather retire to my sleeping car bedroom and enjoy the built-in fireplace.


That's not a fireplace! That's your wife smoking in bed. Call the FD and have them use their water as they run along with the train.


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## tim49424 (Nov 23, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> That's not a fireplace! That's your wife smoking in bed. Call the FD and have them use their water as they run along with the train.



See that might be true for him, but I’m not married. How do you explain the fireplace that was in my room?....and it was a tight squeeze being I was in a roomette.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 24, 2020)

tim49424 said:


> See that might be true for him, but I’m not married. How do you explain the fireplace that was in my room?....and it was a tight squeeze being I was in a roomette.


I had a Bedroom that had a Jaccuzi and a Satelite TV to go along with the Fridge and Convection Oven.


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## lordsigma (Nov 24, 2020)

December 15 doesn’t sound realistic at this point. Until the pandemic ends its hard to even argue for this. If the pandemic ends and Amtrak continues to extend the date then is a good time to have the argument, but like it or not pre packaged food is the rule in a lot of places right now with the pandemic and something like this may have happened even if we hadn’t already had the flex dining program on the eastern trains - look at the crap they are serving in Acela first right now (I’ll take flexible dining over Acela first right now any day.). If they are indeed sincere about this being temporary I can’t blame them for doing it during this situation for a number of reasons. I do hope they resume traditional dining along with Acela first dining when it is safe and fiscally feasible to do so.


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## LinPhil (Nov 24, 2020)

I called Amtrak and the agent said they are extending it to May 21 
They could at least serve some new items on the menu.


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## tim49424 (Nov 25, 2020)

LinPhil said:


> I called Amtrak and the agent said they are extending it to May 21
> They could at least serve some new items on the menu.



This shouldn’t surprise anyone. I’m sure that if we see it return, it’ll be after the vaccine is in widespread distribution. I do agree, a better variety would be nice and I would wish more nutritious and healthy choices would be available.


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## caravanman (Nov 25, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Outdoor dining could be set up on the roof of trains.


I think it important from a safety point of view to watch out for low bridges on some routes...


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## Sidney (Nov 25, 2020)

I doubt full service dining will ever return. I wish they would add sandwiches cold and hot,burgers and those pizzas they serve in the cafe car. Eating that same food for a two or three day trip gets old fast.


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## Manny T (Nov 25, 2020)

It's very difficult to predict the future. If the question is, will full service dining ever return, I would ask, when in the past did Amtrak ever upgrade its dining, or has the past been nothing but a series of escalating downgrades in quality, options and service?

While I remember many past downgrades, the only "upgrade" I remember (upgrade in quotes) is when the boxes of cold food were replaced by hot TV dinners. This was, arguably, an upgrade. Aside from that, I don't recall an upgrade. 

So I think the best we can expect from Amtrak is some tinkering with the current "contemporary" dining. 

Going backwards to something better would really surprise me. I would love to be proven wrong.


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## joelkfla (Nov 25, 2020)

Manny T said:


> It's very difficult to predict the future. If the question is, will full service dining ever return, I would ask, when in the past did Amtrak ever upgrade its dining, or has the past been nothing but a series of escalating downgrades in quality, options and service?
> 
> While I remember many past downgrades, the only "upgrade" I remember (upgrade in quotes) is when the boxes of cold food were replaced by hot TV dinners. This was, arguably, an upgrade. Aside from that, I don't recall an upgrade.
> 
> ...


Wasn't there a brief time when they had "guest chefs" shown on the website, who purportedly created one selection per meal?

And I didn't experience it personally, but I think I recall people saying the Contemporary Cafe food was upgraded after lots of complaints.


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## lordsigma (Nov 25, 2020)

The “official position” is that traditional dining will return when the pandemic is over - presumably only to the western trains. Id rather see them have a date on it rather than just take any mention of it off the website.


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 25, 2020)

Manny T said:


> It's very difficult to predict the future. If the question is, will full service dining ever return, I would ask, when in the past did Amtrak ever upgrade its dining, or has the past been nothing but a series of escalating downgrades in quality, options and service?
> 
> While I remember many past downgrades, the only "upgrade" I remember (upgrade in quotes) is when the boxes of cold food were replaced by hot TV dinners. This was, arguably, an upgrade. Aside from that, I don't recall an upgrade.
> 
> ...



Oh it’s happened before. It was called “simplified dining.” The Bob Evans breakfast scramble was a little better than current flex dining meals but not by much.

There was also the original version of the cross country cafe, which went back to standard dining car menus very quickly although I feel like that concept was actually pretty good, just not given a fair try.


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## neroden (Nov 25, 2020)

Amtrak has upgraded their dining in the past, at least twice that I remember, between downgrades.

Obviously nothing is coming back until the new administration is in office (Jan 20) and proper federal action is being taken on the pandemic. At this point when lobbying I am lobbying for a return of decent food in March.


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## Mailliw (Nov 25, 2020)

tim49424 said:


> On the California Zephyr, there is a SCA that "tries" to convince his passengers there is an elevator to the top of the car where a swimming pool is located. I'll bet that the outdoor dining is in above an adjacent car next to the pool.


Reminds me of an old film from the '30s, *Non-Stop New York*. Most of it takes place on a ccomically extravagant transatlantic airliner, complete with private staterooms and a smoking _balcony_! And no, this wasn't a zeppelin.


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## Ziv (Nov 25, 2020)

Will full service dining ever return? I don't know, but my Dad told me that anytime I said always or never, the odds were that I would eventually be proven wrong. Most of us think that what is currently happening will continue, even when it is a once in a century pandemic.
I don't know when this pandemic will ease, but I do believe in the blessing/curse that "This too shall pass."
Hopefully sooner rather than later.


Sidney said:


> I doubt full service dining will ever return. I wish they would add sandwiches cold and hot,burgers and those pizzas they serve in the cafe car. Eating that same food for a two or three day trip gets old fast.


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## Sauve850 (Nov 25, 2020)

Ziv said:


> Will full service dining ever return? I don't know, but my Dad told me that anytime I said always or never, the odds were that I would eventually be proven wrong. Most of us think that what is currently happening will continue, even when it is a once in a century pandemic.
> I don't know when this pandemic will ease, but I do believe in the blessing/curse that "This too shall pass."
> Hopefully sooner rather than later.


I think your Dad was correct. Lots of things are cyclical. The stocks Ive owned, relationships and Amtrak's dining. Things go up and down. Current food service I think is at the bottom and sooner or later is due for a bounce up to better dining


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## me_little_me (Nov 25, 2020)

caravanman said:


> I think it important from a safety point of view to watch out for low bridges on some routes...


Some of us are smart enough not to stand up while dining al fresco on a train. Of course, for some of us, our vertical displacement allows us to watch others get headaches while we get an opportunity to put graffiti on the underside of the bridge and leave the police wondering how it was done.


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## TRoberts (Nov 26, 2020)

Manny T said:


> I would ask, when in the past did Amtrak ever upgrade its dining, or has the past been nothing but a series of escalating downgrades in quality, options and service?



I remember in like 2007-ish I went down to ride the Crescent from Atlanta to Birmingham and back in the same day specifically because they were bringing back some cooked to order items. I can't remember what I had for breakfast but I specifically ordered a steak and baked potato.


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## Willbridge (Nov 26, 2020)

neroden said:


> Amtrak has upgraded their dining in the past, at least twice that I remember, between downgrades.
> 
> Obviously nothing is coming back until the new administration is in office (Jan 20) and proper federal action is being taken on the pandemic. At this point when lobbying I am lobbying for a return of decent food in March.


Yes, Amtrak dining car history could be graphed like the Dow Jones averages. For a while they even had Rocky Mountain Trout (the D&RGW specialty) on the Colorado segment of the _California Zephyr._


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 26, 2020)

Ziv said:


> Will full service dining ever return? I don't know, but my Dad told me that anytime I said always or never, the odds were that I would eventually be proven wrong.



History repeats itself because human beings never seem to quite get the memo.


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 26, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> Yes, Amtrak dining car history could be graphed like the Dow Jones averages. For a while they even had Rocky Mountain Trout (the D&RGW specialty) on the Colorado segment of the _California Zephyr._


All the Trains had Regional Specialties @ one time, including Catfish,Virginia Ham, Cajan Food, Bourbon Pecan Pie and Bar-B-Q on the Southern Trains and California,Oregon and Washington Wines and Cheeses on the Starlight and Empire Builder


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## railiner (Nov 26, 2020)

I recall several occasions when Amtrak's catering product was the easy target during one budget crisis after another. After they eliminated china, linens, stainless flatware, and fresh flowers on the tables, to a bare bones paper plate and plastic service, some of the nicer touches returned. Silk flowers, paper table cloth's, better quality disposable ware, etc. The same with the food. While it was never as drastic a cut as was recently, they did improve the fare somewhat, first on one focus train, then expanded to other's. There was a time when all chef's were sent to the prestigious Culinary Institute of America for a special course designed by the CIA just for them, in the early '90's...


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## bms (Nov 27, 2020)

Hopefully President-elect Biden names a new CEO, who realizes that Amtrak ordered these Dining Cars for dining!


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## tgstubbs1 (Nov 27, 2020)

bms said:


> Hopefully President-elect Biden names a new CEO, who realizes that Amtrak ordered these Dining Cars for dining!


But Biden is extremely 'Virus conscious' 
so the open air dining will require open air cars, which later ( post virus) can be used by those who prefer to smoke or chew without having to get off the train.


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## Ziv (Nov 27, 2020)

I believe the Empire Builder had Puget Sound Halibut as a special way back in the day. I ordered it when I was traveling with my father and it was simply outstanding! This was mid-1970's.



Bob Dylan said:


> All the Trains had Regional Specialties @ one time, including Catfish,Virginia Ham, Cajan Food, Bourbon Pecan Pie and Bar-B-Q on the Southern Trains and California,Oregon and Washington Wines and Cheeses on the Starlight and Empire Builder


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## jiml (Nov 27, 2020)

The only thing consistent about Amtrak food is its inconsistency. Even in a period that dining was supposedly declining, I took the EB to Seattle 3 summers ago (seems like forever ) to meet up with my wife, who was returning from a cruise. Had the steak for dinner and it was so good I ordered it again the next night, as did many seated nearby.


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## joelkfla (Nov 27, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> All the Trains had Regional Specialties @ one time, including Catfish,Virginia Ham, Cajan Food, Bourbon Pecan Pie and Bar-B-Q on the Southern Trains and California,Oregon and Washington Wines and Cheeses on the Starlight and Empire Builder


Like VIA's Canadian.


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## MrNews (Nov 27, 2020)

I remember having the steak (cooked to order) & baked potato on my first LD train trip, Silver Service sleeper TPA-WAS. That was in 2010, and it was impressive, and it's a shame they've downgraded so much. Took the same route in September '19, with no dining at all, just snacks, so we brought our own for the ~22 hour trip. Okay, but not nearly as much fun. I, for one, would be willing to pay a premium for fine(r) dining, as the journey (for me) is a major part of the fun of train travel. But I do not expect a company/country with such a deemphasis on long-distance mass transit to really invest in it...


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 27, 2020)

MrNews said:


> I, for one, would be willing to pay a premium for fine(r) dining, as the journey (for me) is a major part of the fun of train travel.



I’m thinking $2,000 for a bedroom is enough of a premium to pay for a plate of scrambled eggs.


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## niemi24s (Nov 27, 2020)

A high bucket Bedroom on the EB from CHI to PDX for two adults would be $2464 - maybe_ juuuust_ enough for a sprig of parsley with those scrambled eggs!


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 27, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> A high bucket Bedroom on the EB from CHI to PDX for two adults would be $2464 - maybe_ juuuust_ enough for a sprig of parsley with those scrambled eggs!



Careful... the next post will be “I mean if you care about garnishes that’s fine but I’m just paying for transportation.” 

Or my favorite...

“I was raised to not expect such things like garnishes on my plate.”


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## Exvalley (Nov 28, 2020)

I’d be perfectly content with something like they do on Via Rail’s Ocean.


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## Sidney (Nov 28, 2020)

Heading to Florida from Philly next month. I took advantage of the half off Coach sale. Adding a roomette would have tacked on over $400 each way.No way can I justify that price for a one night trip with flex dining. Having the seat next to you vacant the entire trip is the only reason I 'm not driving or flying.


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 28, 2020)

Exvalley said:


> I’d be perfectly content with something like they do on Via Rail’s Ocean.


Which is the same staffing as Amtrak’s “full diner” operation.


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## jiml (Nov 28, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Careful... the next post will be “I mean if you care about garnishes that’s fine but I’m just paying for transportation.”
> 
> Or my favorite...
> 
> “I was raised to not expect such things like garnishes on my plate.”


Garnishes are serious business. Google the "American Airlines Olive Story".


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## Night Ranger (Nov 28, 2020)

jiml said:


> Garnishes are serious business. Google the "American Airlines Olive Story".


That is a fascinating story and reminded me of one about John D. Rockefeller and his attention to detail and penny pinching. It is a story I heard in a college class on the topic "Robber Barons or Captains of Industry." I cannot find any documentation to verify its accuracy but it certainly sounds like John D. at his parsimonious best. 

Rockefeller was inspecting one of his plants one day and noticed the number of drops of solder being applied to kerosene cans. He suggested using fewer drops to save money and management quickly did. There were savings over time and no one seemed to notice the difference.


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## Dakota 400 (Nov 28, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m thinking $2,000 for a bedroom is enough of a premium to pay for a plate of scrambled eggs.





niemi24s said:


> A high bucket Bedroom on the EB from CHI to PDX for two adults would be $2464 - maybe_ juuuust_ enough for a sprig of parsley with those scrambled eggs!



Plus a choice of Bacon, Sausage, Turkey Sausage, or Ham. And, I want my croissant or biscuit warmed!


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 28, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> Plus a choice of Bacon, Sausage, Turkey Sausage, or Ham. And, I want my croissant or biscuit warmed!



Remember “if you give a mouse a cookie?” Someone should write “if you give a railfan a dinner roll”


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## niemi24s (Nov 28, 2020)

Night Ranger said:


> Rockefeller was inspecting one of his plants one day and noticed the number of drops of solder being applied to kerosene cans. He suggested using fewer drops to save money and management quickly did. There were savings over time and no one seemed to notice the difference.


I've heard that same yarn told about Howard Hughes.


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## me_little_me (Nov 29, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> “I was raised to not expect such things like garnishes on my plate.”


We were so poor, the only thing on our plate was the garnish and a slice of lima bean. Just like Mickey.


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## lordsigma (Nov 29, 2020)

Sidney said:


> Having the seat next to you vacant the entire trip is the only reason I 'm not driving or flying.


I've never tried coach overnight how hard is it to sleep? As nice as the convenience of flying is as far as getting somewhere quick I hate everything else about it so much I'd rather ride in the P42 motor room or the baggage car than fly.  Of course it limits where one can travel.


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## railiner (Nov 29, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I've never tried coach overnight how hard is it to sleep? As nice as the convenience of flying is as far as getting somewhere quick I hate everything else about it so much I'd rather ride in the P42 motor room or the baggage car than fly.  Of course it limits where one can travel.


The ability to sleep overnight in coach seats varies individually. When I was much younger, I could do it very well. But back in the streamliner era, the seats on the Western trains reclined to a greater angle than they do today. There were no seat back tray tables to allow for....


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## tgstubbs1 (Nov 29, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I've never tried coach overnight how hard is it to sleep? As nice as the convenience of flying is as far as getting somewhere quick I hate everything else about it so much I'd rather ride in the P42 motor room or the baggage car than fly.  Of course it limits where one can travel.


Well, there are more freight trains than passenger trains if you don't mind the accommodations
I didn't have much trouble sleeping in coach, at least for 5-6 hours. Then hopefully the next night would be better.


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## TRoberts (Nov 29, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I've never tried coach overnight how hard is it to sleep? As nice as the convenience of flying is as far as getting somewhere quick I hate everything else about it so much I'd rather ride in the P42 motor room or the baggage car than fly.  Of course it limits where one can travel.



There are quite a few variables when traveling in coach. Depending on where you are sitting, the noise, light, and even air levels can be dramatically different. I've had nights where I've slept quite well in coach and others where I hardly slept at all and felt exhausted the next day, which is not a fun way to begin a trip.


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## Sidney (Nov 29, 2020)

When I was younger I did Coach three nights in a row on cross country trips. Now that I've aged a bit,I find even one night can be tough. As I mentioned in an earlier post,as long as I am guaranteed the seat next to me is vacant,I ll do Coach. I do have a Philly-Fla. trip coming up. I m doing Coach on the way down and to save $130 on the return I'm in a roomette from Okeechobee to Raleigh,the two farthest points for the cheapest price and Coach from Fort Lauderdale to Okeechobee and Raleigh to Philly.


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## BoulderCO (Nov 29, 2020)

Yes, having the empty seat next to you in coach is HUGE in terms of comfort. Not only the extra space to find a comfortable sleeping position, but also avoiding the awkwardness of having someone next to you. I always take a window seat and, at my age, need to get up at least once during the night to attend to business (if you get my drift). I would feel terrible about waking someone else up so I could get out of my seat.

I'm in my 70s and have done several overnights in coach. But only one night per trip. Think I would be pretty strung out if it were more than one night. Probably average about 4 hours of actual sleep if I'm lucky.


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## Asher (Nov 30, 2020)

TRoberts said:


> There are quite a few variables when traveling in coach. Depending on where you are sitting, the noise, light, and even air levels can be dramatically different. I've had nights where I've slept quite well in coach and others where I hardly slept at all and felt exhausted the next day, which is not a fun way to begin a trip.


Yeah, I'll agree. I can put up with not much sleep, it's the after effect of One not to mention Two nights of disruption.


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## MrNews (Nov 30, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m thinking $2,000 for a bedroom is enough of a premium to pay for a plate of scrambled eggs.



LOL. I do remember what we paid 10 years ago- it seemed astronomical at the time (compared to plane fare), about $1150. That was for two people, round trip, and a total of two dinners, two breakfasts, and two lunches, all served by friendly attendants. And I think it included a full-size bedroom on the return. In retrospect, it was money well-spent for a wonderful adventure...


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## tgstubbs1 (Nov 30, 2020)

Sidney said:


> I m doing Coach on the way down and to save $130 on the return I'm in a roomette from Okeechobee to Raleigh,the two farthest points for the cheapest price and Coach from Fort Lauderdale to Okeechobee and Raleigh to Philly.


When you do that I guess it affects your meal plan, but from what I read here I guess that's maybe a good thing. I guess you can grab something from the lounge?


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## Sidney (Nov 30, 2020)

I am still getting lunch,dinner and breakfast and an overnight in a bed. All I'll need is something from the cafe car for lunch the next day..I just couldn't justify paying $468 for a roomette the entire journey. It's,$279 for over 18 hours and with the half price coach sale I'm paying $59 for the remainder. 

I'm doing something similar in January. I'm taking the Texas Eagle from LA to Chicago. It's $600 for a roomette the entire trip. By vacating my room in Bloomington about three hours shy of Chicago and paying $13 for Coach the remainder of the trip I'm saving $139.

I love riding,but the sleeper prices are high enough and these are low bucket fares and with the flexible dining on all trains I'm not missing any great meals.


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## Maverickstation (Dec 1, 2020)

it's official, Traditional Dining is on hold through May 21, 2021.

*Service Change*
Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through May 21, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


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## Ziv (Dec 1, 2020)

You think you were poor, mlm? You need to hear how poor the 4 Yorkshireman were. This is one of Monty Pythons best bits ever. Sorry for going OT, but it is a classic.




me_little_me said:


> We were so poor, the only thing on our plate was the garnish and a slice of lima bean. Just like Mickey.


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## Dustyroad (Dec 1, 2020)

I found this on the Amtrak site. I am not surprised at all with the Covid as bad as it is. It will not be unheard of if the 3 day schedules for the LD trains will be here for a long time as well. 
If this has already been posted, sorry for the repeat. I have not kept up on the site for a while.

Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through May 21, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service .


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## AmtrakFlyer (Dec 1, 2020)

Even before this management the Auto Train was always considered an extension of the NEC. Amtrak’s darkest days under Norman Minetta saw the Auto Train as the only LD train that was to survive before Gunn got the last minute bailout. 

Somewhat off topic but shows how this management thinks the same keeping Auto Train daily and with traditional dining to boot.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 1, 2020)

Dustyroad said:


> I found this on the Amtrak site. I am not surprised at all with the Covid as bad as it is. It will not be unheard of if the 3 day schedules for the LD trains will be here for a long time as well.
> If this has already been posted, sorry for the repeat. I have not kept up on the site for a while.
> 
> Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through May 21, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service .



In time for the summer season anyway.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 1, 2020)

Maverickstation said:


> it's official, Traditional Dining is on hold through May 21, 2021.
> 
> *Service Change*
> Traditional dining service has been temporarily suspended on all routes with the exception of the Auto Train. Through May 21, 2021, customers in private rooms will be offered flexible dining service; Coach customers will be offered Café service.


I'm Shocked! Shocked! Who coulda seen this coming???


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 1, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> I'm Shocked! Shocked! Who coulda seen this coming???


Well, it follows. Everyone in Colorado is now under 'alert' til Jan 1 and then there's the Christmas surge


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## Sidney (Dec 1, 2020)

How many times has the return of traditional dining been postponed? I doubt it will ever return,regardless of the pedemic. Why can't there be a wider selection of offerings?..sandwiches and burgers would be most welcome


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## LinPhil (Dec 1, 2020)

I have a trip booked on the Southwest Chief in March 2021, from Chicago to Flagstaff. Now that Traditional Dining is suspended until May 21, should I consider traveling later? I booked three roomettes for my family, $1800+ one way. I feel like it would be more worth it to wait, it just doesn't seem worth it any more. Should I still go? Maybe there's hope it will return earlier?


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## flitcraft (Dec 1, 2020)

Unfortunately, there's no reason to hope it will return earlier, even if it could. The only thing that could matter is if the highers-up come to believe that flex dining is eating into sales of bedrooms and roomettes. Contact Amtrak to confirm that you will be paying a premium for sub-premium accommodations, and express your displeasure. Unlikely to matter, of course, but maybe if they heard this message repeatedly...


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 2, 2020)

Sidney said:


> How many times has the return of traditional dining been postponed? I doubt it will ever return,regardless of the pedemic. Why can't there be a wider selection of offerings?..sandwiches and burgers would be most welcome


Even decent Salads!


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 2, 2020)

LinPhil said:


> I have a trip booked on the Southwest Chief in March 2021, from Chicago to Flagstaff. Now that Traditional Dining is suspended until May 21, should I consider traveling later? I booked three roomettes for my family, $1800+ one way. I feel like it would be more worth it to wait, it just doesn't seem worth it any more. Should I still go? Maybe there's hope it will return earlier?


I'd reschedule while you can before the Fares go Up, Up and Away!


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## Sidney (Dec 2, 2020)

I don't think traditional dining will ever return. The sleeper fares have not come down at all since flex dining was implemented. In many cases they have risen. I'm not a fan of the current situation,but it doesn't deter me from riding. If anything,fares will continue to rise as this thrice weekly schedule continues.

I wouldn't cancel. It's still a great train ride. A sleeper is one of the safest places to travel. I've done a few cross country trips in the past six months and asides from the food,I have had no problems.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 2, 2020)

I don't know if your stop in Galesburg will be long enough to hop off and grab something but when you stop in Trinidad you might look out the window and see if there are any vendors. 

I was able to find something in ABQ about a block from the station.


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## Sidney (Dec 2, 2020)

Galesburg is a brief smoke stop and there is nothing close to the station. There is enough time to leave the Albuquerque platform. There is a food stand close by. I ve used it several times. Prices are about half of what you pay on board.


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## Dustyroad (Dec 3, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> I don't know if your stop in Galesburg will be long enough to hop off and grab something but when you stop in Trinidad you might look out the window and see if there are any vendors.
> 
> I was able to find something in ABQ about a block from the station.


I know the station in Galesgurg. You will not have time to get of and grab something to eat.


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## Bostonjetset (Dec 3, 2020)

LinPhil said:


> I have a trip booked on the Southwest Chief in March 2021, from Chicago to Flagstaff. Now that Traditional Dining is suspended until May 21, should I consider traveling later? I booked three roomettes for my family, $1800+ one way. I feel like it would be more worth it to wait, it just doesn't seem worth it any more. Should I still go? Maybe there's hope it will return earlier?


I think you should enjoy your trip and just make the best of the flexible dining. Who knows when traditional dining will return...also, the actual value of the better food is marginal from a true monetary standpoint. It is more pleasant for sure but IMO not worth rescheduling an entire vacation around.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 3, 2020)

Dustyroad said:


> I know the station in Galesgurg. You will not have time to get of and grab something to eat.


I guess I was there for a longer layover once and I recall a bar and grill place about a block from the station. I had a nice pint there.


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## AmtrakFlyer (Dec 3, 2020)

Galesburg is staffed by 2 agents that are great. You could order Uber eats or some delivery service. Have it sent to the station. I’m sure they don’t condone it but at the same time I’m sure they’d accept your order and put it on the electric bag cart they drive the baggage out on. Not guaranteed but I’m confident you’d get connected with your food.

Place the order with your name, train and room number maybe your cell phone number. It’s not the agents job to help you out per se but Amtraks lack of edible healthy food is the driver of this decision, not you.

My hunch is this will work at any small medium size station. I’ll be trying it on our next trips.


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## OBS (Dec 3, 2020)

AmtrakFlyer said:


> Galesburg is staffed by 2 agents that are great. You could order Uber eats or some delivery service. Have it sent to the station. I’m sure they don’t condone it but at the same time I’m sure they’d accept your order and put it on the electric bag cart they drive the baggage out on. Not guaranteed but I’m confident you’d get connected with your food.
> 
> Place the order with your name, train and room number maybe your cell phone number. It’s not the agents job to help you out per se but Amtraks lack of edible healthy food is the driver of this decision, not you.
> 
> My hunch is this will work at any small medium size station. I’ll be trying it on our next trips.


I would only do this if my expectations were set such that it may not be successful. I can imagine many agents not wanting to be responsible for something like this....


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 3, 2020)

Amtrak has great people.

But it looks like the future of dining service will look like this:




AmtrakFlyer said:


> Galesburg is staffed by 2 agents that are great. You could order Uber eats or some delivery service. Have it sent to the station. I’m sure they don’t condone it but at the same time I’m sure they’d accept your order and put it on the electric bag cart they drive the baggage out on. Not guaranteed but I’m confident you’d get connected with your food.
> 
> Place the order with your name, train and room number maybe your cell phone number. It’s not the agents job to help you out per se but Amtraks lack of edible healthy food is the driver of this decision, not you.
> 
> My hunch is this will work at any small medium size station. I’ll be trying it on our next trips.


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## joelkfla (Dec 3, 2020)

OBS said:


> I would only do this if my expectations were set such that it may not be successful. I can imagine many agents not wanting to be responsible for something like this....


Well, at least either the agent or the Uber Eats driver will get a good meal.


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## MikefromCrete (Dec 3, 2020)

Yeah, I don't think an Amtrak agent will want to be your personal food delivery man. Now, you could step outside the train and have the actual delivery guy hand you the food. That might work.


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## AmtrakFlyer (Dec 3, 2020)

I wouldn’t say delivery agent at all. Accept the order and place it to the side for you to find from him/her. Most agents and Amtrak employees will and do go the extra mile. It’s the 20 percent that give the other 80 percent the bad wrap. 

Again the true culprit here is Amtrak management. At small and medium size stations agents for the most don’t check bags and in some cases don’t even sell tickets anymore. If agents complain about it maybe it will get back to corporate give it one more reason for meal service to improve onboard.


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## Dustyroad (Dec 4, 2020)

One of the other problems at Galesburg is that you have to cross the tracks from the station to board the train. That would make it harder for getting back on the train, or having a agent to hand you something to eat. But if anyone can get it done '' well done ''. I hope it works out.


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## neroden (Dec 4, 2020)

Honestly, delivering meals to the trains at the stations and having customers pick them up would work great *if the trains ran on time which they don't.*

If the schedule was reliable, I'd obviously order delivery from my favorite restaurants at places like Denver Union Station. So would many people. But if you have no idea when you'll actually arrive in Denver, it does not work.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 5, 2020)

LinPhil said:


> I have a trip booked on the Southwest Chief in March 2021, from Chicago to Flagstaff. Now that Traditional Dining is suspended until May 21, should I consider traveling later? I booked three roomettes for my family, $1800+ one way. I feel like it would be more worth it to wait, it just doesn't seem worth it any more. Should I still go? Maybe there's hope it will return earlier?


I would make the sensible decision and save a lot of money by rebooking on an airline to perhaps PHX and grabbing a rent car there.


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## Skyline (Dec 5, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> C'mon, it's a little too cold this time of year for that outdoor dining and swimming on top of the car; I'd rather retire to my sleeping car bedroom and enjoy the built-in fireplace.


Not a bad idea! But if I have to chop my own wood, wouldn't my axe be considered a lethal weapon?


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## lordsigma (Dec 5, 2020)

The May date will be the test - if the vaccine comes out and demand begins to improve and assuming some return to daily service occurs at that time - that would probably be the most convenient time to bring back the meal service. It’s still possible it will come back it’s all still listed on the website and they keep extending a date rather than just saying indefinitely - now if they all of the sudden just erased any mention of it then good luck.


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## west point (Dec 6, 2020)

The problem of determining who has been vaccinated needs an almost fool prof way to restore dinning room confidence on trains and elsewhere. That as well as any multi person event. One idea that would never be accepted is a vaccination card with your picture taking the shot(s). That would certainly ease my mind.


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## Qapla (Dec 6, 2020)

west point said:


> One idea that would never be accepted is a vaccination card with your picture taking the shot(s). That would certainly ease my mind.



How about a subcutaneous chip injected along with the vaccination


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## lordsigma (Dec 6, 2020)

It should be noted and as has been stated before - the flexible dining on the western trains is not the only cut Amtrak has made to food and beverage. Acela first dining has been cut and replaced with a boxed snack and the cafe menus have also seen cuts - basically all the fresh stuff like salads and sandwiches have been cut. What’s left is the microwaveable stuff and sweet stuff. It appears the only train that still has a full cafe car menu is, surprise, the Auto Train.


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## me_little_me (Dec 6, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Amtrak has great people.
> 
> But it looks like the future of dining service will look like this:
> 
> View attachment 19713


Not a chance. Would never be ableto put trucks and wheels under it. Amtrak would figure out how to lose even more money with it. Won't fit in the tunnels.


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## Sidney (Dec 6, 2020)

The Auto Train is Amtrak's cash cow. I have ridden every long distance train multiple times. I remember the Pacific Parlour Car,free wine tastings on the Coast Starlight and Empire Builder free champagne on the EB and regional menus.

The only LD train I never rode was the Auto Train. For the price,I can easily drive to Fl. from Pa. and stay at nice hotels along the way. Of course that train is popular..hence the continued daily service and full service dining,but I never found a need for it.


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## Ziv (Dec 6, 2020)

Foolproof, West Point? Not even close to being needed. 
This too shall pass.
Today's fears will grow in the weeks to come as cases and deaths rise, but in a few months the numbers will be better/lower. People often think that the current economic boom will last forever, because "this time it is different". Or the current economic recession will last forever because"the fundamentals have changed."
Today's Covid fears are similar. Our fear of this disease is such that we can not recognize that eventually this virus will be yesterdays news. It may never go away entirely, but the vast majority of us will accept the risk and carry on. There may be a short term return to using some form of evidence that you have had the disease or the jab, but within a year no one will care. If the jab works, the fear will ease within 6 or 8 months. 



west point said:


> The problem of determining who has been vaccinated needs an almost fool prof way to restore dinning room confidence on trains and elsewhere. That as well as any multi person event. One idea that would never be accepted is a vaccination card with your picture taking the shot(s). That would certainly ease my mind.


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 7, 2020)

One of the hindrances to rapid deployment of the vaccine to the general population is the extreme cold that the vaccine must be stored at. Most places where one gets the flu vaccine do not have this extreme cold storage capability. The logistics for distributing the vaccine plus tracking those who have had BOTH shots will be massive. I do not see the vaccine getting out as quickly as most of the public is thinking.


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## Dakota 400 (Dec 7, 2020)

Ziv said:


> It may never go away entirely, but the vast majority of us will accept the risk and carry on. There may be a short term return to using some form of evidence that you have had the disease or the jab, but within a year no one will care. If the jab works, the fear will ease within 6 or 8 months.



The reason "the vast majority of us will accept the risk and carry on" is became there will be an effective vaccine. Hopefully, effective; but, for how long? That answer is unknown as of now.

If the disease is like others, i.e. malaria, and one does need to be immunized against the disease after a certain time period after being originally vaccinated, I think more of us will need to obtain "the Yellow Bible" or some form of it as proof that we have been immunized.


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## tricia (Dec 7, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> The reason "the vast majority of us will accept the risk and carry on" is became there will be an effective vaccine. Hopefully, effective; but, for how long? That answer is unknown as of now.
> 
> If the disease is like others, i.e. malaria, and one does need to be immunized against the disease after a certain time period after being originally vaccinated, I think more of us will need to obtain "the Yellow Bible" or some form of it as proof that we have been immunized.


 
AFAIK there is not yet an effective and available malaria vaccine.


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## Sidney (Dec 12, 2020)

Back to the food..I'm on the Silver Star.There are five choices for meals. All are bland and loaded with sodium. I remember looking forward to all three meals. Now,it's something you have to do. On previous trips I somewhat liked the Shrimp in lobster sauce. I just had it for lunch and it gave me a bit of a queasy feeling. $468 for a one night trip and mediocre food. A bit pricey,to say the least.

I rode Coach on the way down because of the two seats to yourself guarantee. I enjoyed the cup of noodles more than anything on the flex menu. Eastern trains are stuck with it. Western trains until May 21,until it gets pushed back again. Why can't their be other options like a sub or sandwich. I ll even take one of the burgers they sell in the Cafe Car.

I still love riding but there has to be some upgrade to the dreck they are serving. Sleeper passengers are paying quite a premium. I wish something would happen with the food,but I have a feeling we are stuck with it.


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## Qapla (Dec 12, 2020)

Sidney said:


> I wish something would happen with the food,but I have a feeling we are stuck with it.



There has been a lot of complaining here on the AU forum about the food ... but, I not seen anything in the major news media about it. Perhaps, if there were some visible protests, you know- like marching with signs, at some of the large market stations it would get some TV coverage and some needed attention.


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## flitcraft (Dec 12, 2020)

Given the many other issues in the country today, I suspect that complaining about the quality of the food on Amtrak LD trains would be considered an eye-rolling 'first world problem.' Like when somebody commented online that he was upset about COVID restrictions in his area because he was unable to take walks on the Pacific Coast beach near his comfortable home...yeah, the response to that by folks who had lost their jobs or gotten sick or lost loved ones was, "Cry me a river, buddy!"

I'm not saying that we are wrong to be annoyed by the probably-counter-productive trashing of food service on the LD trains. Only that I wouldn't expect a local TV station to run an item on it as an "outrage du jour."


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## lordsigma (Dec 12, 2020)

Indeed a first world problem - on Acela first you are paying a bunch more money for a snack box and drinks. I find it hard to interpret this as Amtrak trying to kill the long distance trains when, as I’ve said multiple times, Amtrak has cut food and beverage across the board everywhere except the auto train - not just on long distance. Cafes have been stripped down to the microwave stuff and Acela first is a snack box and airlines have made huge cuts too. If you go to the cafe car - no sandwiches no salads if you don’t like microwave stuff or sugary junk food you’re out of luck in the cafe. Let’s see what happens after the pandemic.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 12, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Let’s see what happens after the pandemic.



Contemporary dining started long before the pandemic on the east coast trains. From the beginning we heard that Amtrak wanted to roll it out system wide.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 12, 2020)

Maybe start a movement like "Train Lunch Matters"


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 12, 2020)

Could management be considering or working on a plan to eliminate food service on ALL trains? If everyone is complaining, why not just devise a plan to eliminate all food related services. One alternative could be a catering company or two at major stops set up to sell their products trainside for consumption on the train. This would be a horrible option, but to a management team that wants food service to go away this could be a compromise they might live with. Either way, current meals filled with sodium and preservatives, or having to purchase sandwiches trainside once or twice a day, I can not see a way for me to travel in the near future. Restoring the Dining Car to its original Chef cooked standards isn’t going to happen with the current management team and current Board.


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## me_little_me (Dec 12, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Maybe start a movement like "Train Lunch Matters"


"Stop the Cheat - Amtrak is providing bad food". They could recycle the Trump signs after January 20th and it would become non-political!


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## lordsigma (Dec 13, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Contemporary dining started long before the pandemic on the east coast trains. From the beginning we heard that Amtrak wanted to roll it out system wide.


I am aware - but they have stated that the flex dining out west is due to COVID and before the pandemic they officially stated in letters to RPA and other circumstances that it was NOT the intention to roll it out system wide - now could they have been lying? Sure - that's why I said let's see what happens after the pandemic when ridership starts to return - if they bring things back on the Acela as well as the cafe car but flex dining stays out west then we'll know. They haven't removed western traditional dining from the website and there is still a date on it and they are still calling it temporary so they could still do the right thing - this May date could be a more realistic time to do it if they really are planning on it as vaccines should be available to more people then but any of these initial restoration dates would not have made sense from a pandemic perspective and it's no surprise to me that they were extended.

It's just hard for advocacy groups to have this battle over food with management right now when they still have the pandemic as an excuse and I think groups like the RPA need to focus on making sure they do the right thing on getting service back to daily first. After the pandemic if they don't do the right thing regarding F&B I'll be right with you complaining about it. I think traditional dining coming back out west is probably the most we can hope for with the current management. I personally can deal with flex dining on eastern trains but this really isn't acceptable long term out west.


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## Exvalley (Dec 13, 2020)

That’s a fair point. Contemporary dining makes it easier to restore daily service.


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## lordsigma (Dec 13, 2020)

Exvalley said:


> That’s a fair point. Contemporary dining makes it easier to restore daily service.


I’m not even saying that - I just think the current focus needs to be on making sure Amtrak brings back daily service when they either have the revenue or stimulus money to do so - you’re not going to be able to get anywhere with the food battle until after the pandemic at least slows down - we are seeing an explosion in cases now and travel ridership is once again cratering - not a good time to be restoring amenities.


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## Sidney (Dec 13, 2020)

We are stuck with flex dining until May 21 on the Western trains. i have a feeling it will be postponed again if not scrapped altogether. As I mentioned earlier,how hard would it be for Amtrak offer more variety,? Sandwiches,subs,burgers hot dogs pizza soup,etc? Traditional dining is still in effect on their cash cow The Auto Train.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 13, 2020)

We may be approaching a point of 'no return' for Amtrak because 'diminishing returns' are bringing a mounting discouragement to avid riders and supporters ... the further out the frequencies extend... the more disappointment it brings.

The eventual end of the pandemic and the 'Amtrak positive' president promises a confluence of some sort for next summer that will beckons positive change from what is now. But my gut feeling is that Amtrak will be different than the recent past. Only time and fate will tell!



Sidney said:


> How many times has the return of traditional dining been postponed? I doubt it will ever return,regardless of the pedemic. Why can't there be a wider selection of offerings?..sandwiches and burgers would be most welcome



Agreed... and at this point is justifiably essential!


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 13, 2020)

LinPhil said:


> I have a trip booked on the Southwest Chief in March 2021, from Chicago to Flagstaff. Now that Traditional Dining is suspended until May 21, should I consider traveling later? I booked three roomettes for my family, $1800+ one way. I feel like it would be more worth it to wait, it just doesn't seem worth it any more. Should I still go? Maybe there's hope it will return earlier?


I don't blame you for wanting to rebook. I am cancelling my January 2021 trip but mostly because I fear the risk of getting covid at this time of apex surge. It looks like we may pay higher fares later when many will want to return. But at some point I do hope that the government realizes Amtrak as a service for the people and the environment... and brings more funding support!


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## Manny T (Dec 13, 2020)

Qapla said:


> There has been a lot of complaining here on the AU forum about the food ... but, I [have] not seen anything in the major news media about it.



Although it's not a continual drumbeat, like here, the situation re: dining on Amtrak has indeed been reported in major media:

"People hated Amtrak's new airline-style meals so much they filed 125 pages of complaints in the first year after the change"








People hated Amtrak's new airline-style meals so much they filed 125 pages of complaints in the first year after the change


Customer comments obtained by Business Insider reveal just how badly riders miss the custom cooked, china-laden dinners of yesteryear.




www.businessinsider.com




"The end of an American tradition: The Amtrak dining car" 


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/the-end-of-an-american-tradition-the-amtrak-dining-car/2019/09/21/d63cca3a-d888-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html


"I tried Amtrak's new 'contemporary' dining car and it was immediately clear why so many people want to save the old one"








I tried Amtrak's new 'contemporary' dining car and it was immediately clear why so many people want to save the old one


Gone are the days of custom-cooked meals on some long-distance Amtrak routes. Now, it's airplane food — and people aren't happy.




www.businessinsider.com




"Amtrak is making the trains not worth riding again"








Amtrak is making the trains not worth riding again: Column


Amtrak is under pressure from Congress to eliminate food service losses, but this approach is unreasonable and unnecessary.



www.poughkeepsiejournal.com




"RIP the Amtrak dining car, done in by murderous millennials"








RIP the Amtrak dining car, done in by murderous millennials


First it was mayonnaise. Then it was Applebees and Hooters. And now it’s the Amtrak dining car. The millennial campaign to slaughter all our beloved American food icons just keeps going like a cross-country train.




thetakeout.com





This is just a sampling, obviously. There is much more coverage out there.
Is anyone listening? That is the question.


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## Qapla (Dec 13, 2020)

Internet articles and/or print headlines are not the same as TV coverage - and that would take some type of people in public drawing attention to the situation

The situation could use some TV attention


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## jiml (Dec 13, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Internet articles and/or print headlines are not the same as TV coverage - and that would take some type of people in public drawing attention to the situation
> 
> The situation could use some TV attention


Let's send Robert Irvine. It's no less of a "Restaurant Impossible" scenario than he deals with on his show.


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## Manny T (Dec 13, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Internet articles and/or print headlines are not the same as TV coverage



Depends who you are trying to reach. According to Pew research, people over 50 still get most of their news from watching TV. Under 50, most of people's news comes to them from online sources.

So if you want to reach _tomorrow's _Amtrak riders (who were supposed to hop on board for "contemporary" "dining"), coverage of the Amtak dining deterioration online would be quite important.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 13, 2020)

jiml said:


> Let's send Robert Irvine. It's no less of a "Restaurant Impossible" scenario than he deals with on his show.



They don’t need him. They know how to deliver better quality food. They just don’t want to pay for it.


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## jiml (Dec 13, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> They don’t need him. They know how to deliver better quality food. They just don’t want to pay for it.


Very true. I was more thinking of the publicity, especially the part where he turns up his nose at the stuff he's served.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 13, 2020)

jiml said:


> Very true. I was more thinking of the publicity, especially the part where he turns up his nose at the stuff he's served.



True! I’d pay lots of money to see Gordon Ramsey tell Amtrak leadership what to do with those flex meals  haha


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## Willbridge (Dec 13, 2020)

There are a few of us who are old enough to remember the Penn Central snack-coach food service. In 1969 I escorted the daughter of a French marquis from DC to Middletown, NJ and Isabelle was horrified by their simple sandwiches and packaged items. I was in the Army so I hadn't really thought much about food, except that I was in favor of it. I ended up eating the items she had bought, along with my own. We were in coach on an Eastern railway so there wasn't going to be much right for her, but Amtrak is doing it to people who are paying premium fares and I can understand the griping.

The irony of all this is that the Penn Central snack-coach was often cited as a reason for creating Amtrak! "We're making the trains worth traveling again."


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## railiner (Dec 13, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> There are a few of us who are old enough to remember the Penn Central snack-coach food service.


I sure do...ordered plenty of their “hot beef sandwiches”...


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## jiml (Dec 13, 2020)

railiner said:


> I sure do...ordered plenty of their “hot beef sandwiches”...


Compared to flexible dining that sounds delicious, but I'm old enough to remember real food too.


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## Sidney (Dec 13, 2020)

I remember real food as recently as last March. October 2019 for the Eastern trains and June 2018 for the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited.Richard Anderson touting a new and improved food service that will revolutionize food on Amtrak. Never in my life have I seen such a positive spin for such a negative move.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 14, 2020)

Regarding this 'contemporary dining fiasco' one must face on a three day journey... unhealthy, tasteless, monotonous, unsatisfying... and on and on. Around and around we go with this topic... not much to say or do now until the pandemic is behind us and they go back to daily service... if they do... but after that, blame it on Amtrak's bad bad bad management!!!

Our rail system needs to be fully supported by the government for its environmentally friendly service.

And then expanded too!


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 14, 2020)

In 2021, will our new Congress be willing to support Amtrak? Unfortunately, being politicians, they will continue to kick the can down the road, which means just remaining the same. No one seems interested in attracting passengers, which Chef cooked meals would do. I doubt our new President will have the time to lobby Congress for major support of Amtrak.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 14, 2020)

jiml said:


> Compared to flexible dining that sounds delicious, but I'm old enough to remember real food too.


Yes! But compared to 'flexible dining' anything is delicious!!!


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## Dakota 400 (Dec 15, 2020)

Lonestar648 said:


> In 2021, will our new Congress be willing to support Amtrak? Unfortunately, being politicians, they will continue to kick the can down the road,



I am a bit more hopeful. The most significant news out of Washington that I have heard today is that another political odd couple have developed: Senators Hawley and Sanders regarding trying to have an impact on any proposed Stimulus Bill by including another round of $1200 checks for Americans qualified to receive them. 

If men of so diverse political views can learn to work together, I have hopes that more bipartisanship may become possible in the next Congress. I still hope to see a Biden-McConnell relationship develop because of their many years as colleagues in the Senate. Such relationships, i.e. Sanders/Hawley, Biden/McConnell, ought to keep "cans from being kicked down the road" for Amtrak and how many other needs and concerns of our country.


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 15, 2020)

I hope your optimism proves correct. Too many times I have been disappointed by the politicians in Washington, irregardless of party.


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## Dakota 400 (Dec 16, 2020)

Lonestar648 said:


> I hope your optimism proves correct. Too many times I have been disappointed by the politicians in Washington, irregardless of party.



I am a "glass is half-full" person and just as you, I have been disappointed as well far too many times in what is supposed to be a "representative democracy". The needs of the people too often get ignored because our voices get drowned out by the influence of lobbyists. And, in most recent years, by the cowardice of those who are in a position of "speaking truth to power" and fail to do so. All of that means to me is that I must continue to "bug" my legislators about those issues, like Amtrak, that are of much concern to me.

I wish more of "We, the People" would do the same.


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## Willbridge (Dec 16, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> I am a "glass is half-full" person and just as you, I have been disappointed as well far too many times in what is supposed to be a "representative democracy". The needs of the people too often get ignored because our voices get drowned out by the influence of lobbyists. And, in most recent years, by the cowardice of those who are in a position of "speaking truth to power" and fail to do so. All of that means to me is that I must continue to "bug" my legislators about those issues, like Amtrak, that are of much concern to me.
> 
> I wish more of "We, the People" would do the same.


Perhaps we should put the dining cars into the Agriculture department under the heading of "produce marketing". Then there'd be no quibbling about serving interesting and attractive food, at least for grains and beef. The ag industry is never ignored.

Seriously, when I worked for Oregon DOT we kicked around working with the agricultural marketing boards to get local products onto our planned Willamette Valley service. The idea came to me while eating dinner on Train 11 back when that took place in some of the best agricultural land for high value crops. None of it had made it onto the menu. Since then some state sponsored trains do feature local products, but I haven't seen any that turned their state's promoters loose or linked up with farm lobbies.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 16, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> Perhaps we should put the dining cars into the Agriculture department under the heading of "produce marketing". Then there'd be no quibbling about serving interesting and attractive food, at least for grains and beef. The ag industry is never ignored.
> 
> Seriously, when I worked for Oregon DOT we kicked around working with the agricultural marketing boards to get local products onto our planned Willamette Valley service. The idea came to me while eating dinner on Train 11 back when that took place in some of the best agricultural land for high value crops. None of it had made it onto the menu. Since then some state sponsored trains do feature local products, but I haven't seen any that turned their state's promoters loose or linked up with farm lobbies.



At one time you could get a wonderful pasta dish with Beechers Cheese (made in Pike Place Market, Seattle) on the starlight and empire builder. Also an entree salad with apples grown from Washington state. 

That was also the time when those trains served wines from the states they traveled through. 

Those were the days! (Like 8 years ago?)


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 16, 2020)

Willbridge said:


> Perhaps we should put the dining cars into the Agriculture department under the heading of "produce marketing". Then there'd be no quibbling about serving interesting and attractive food, at least for grains and beef. The ag industry is never ignored.
> 
> Seriously, when I worked for Oregon DOT we kicked around working with the agricultural marketing boards to get local products onto our planned Willamette Valley service. The idea came to me while eating dinner on Train 11 back when that took place in some of the best agricultural land for high value crops. None of it had made it onto the menu. Since then some state sponsored trains do feature local products, but I haven't seen any that turned their state's promoters loose or linked up with farm lobbies.


Well, the Starlight and Empire Builder did serve California,Oregon and Washington Wines and Cheeses
during the Wine Tastings.

And on some Routes, the Chefs and Dinning Crews did actually shop for Fresh, Local Products to prepare in the Diner. 

I personally saw this on the Sunset Ltd ,Texas Eagle,CONO and Crescent and I'm sure there are others too.


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## railiner (Dec 17, 2020)

I recall these....  




__





northern pacific great big baked potato - Google Search






www.google.com


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 17, 2020)

I read an article on Trains. Com yesterday about the Amtrak dining situation ( can't find it now). 

It blames the problem on lack of infrastructure and manpower.

Anyone with specific tastes really needs to plan ahead to procure their food or bring it along. It could be a while before food service gets any better.


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## me_little_me (Dec 17, 2020)

You mean the "flex meals" aren't organic, locally-sourced, fair-trade, non-GMO, low salt, high fiber, gluten free, no-sugar-added, peanut-free, fresh picked, never frozen, using grass-fed beef and cage-free eggs and chicken, and following FDA nutrition guidelines?

I'm crushed to hear that! I thought Amtrak was catering to us millennials.


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## jis (Dec 19, 2020)

Maybe Mayor Pete will bring some Millennial Reality to the old fuddy duddies in Amtrak management that claim to know what Millennials want.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 19, 2020)

jis said:


> Maybe Mayor Pete will bring some Millennial Reality to the old fuddy duddies in Amtrak management that claim to know what Millennials want.



Millennials don’t want microwave dinners that’s for sure.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 19, 2020)

Geee Wiz!!! Has the present Amtrak management actually indulged in this new contemporary salty oily tasteless mush? Maybe they were shown 'samples' of it as they headed towards the in house restaurant for their lunch of aged steak with gratin potatoes and haricot verts with slivered almonds in scented lemon sauce. 

The real issue is the management... they are out of touch and just don't care. They sit at a desk all day trimming costs then leave with the pockets full of cash from bloated salaries. According to glassdoor.com those managers are getting around $87,000 per year. C'mon folks! They're just out of touch!

Maybe if the antiquated management structure is updated Amtrak can realize better profits that accompany better service. Yup, I know... first lets get vaccinated and back to normal... but I'm hoping the new normal for Amtrak is a robust and successful rail system! Remember? After WWII America rebuilt with the interstate system. Now it's time to rebuild America with an up to date rail system!


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 19, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> After WWII America rebuilt with the interstate system. Now it's time to rebuild America with an up to date rail system!



The US is going to need jobs to get the economy back up and running... I’m hoping President Biden and his team will invest in Amtrak and public transit nationwide. They can start by creating some new jobs at Amtrak (by cleaning house.... haha).


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 19, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The US is going to need jobs to get the economy back up and running... I’m hoping President Biden and his team will invest in Amtrak and public transit nationwide. They can start by creating some new jobs at Amtrak (by cleaning house.... haha).


And how!!!


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## IndyLions (Dec 19, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> The real issue is the management... they are out of touch and just don't care. They sit at a desk all day trimming costs then leave with the pockets full of cash from bloated salaries. According to glassdoor.com those managers are getting around $87,000 per year. C'mon folks! They're just out of touch!


Not gonna argue about the management for sure. But...

It’s a good salary, but no one is “filling their pockets” earning $87k in DC. Unless they are a two income household - they are definitely not doing that great.


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## jiml (Dec 19, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> It’s a good salary, but no one is “filling their pockets” earning $87k in DC. Unless they are a two income household - they are definitely not doing that great.


That's the case in a lot of big cities. Until you've lived in one where a studio condo starts at $600K and a single family home is out of reach for all but couples making a combined income of $200K, $87,000 sounds like a lot of money.


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## daybeers (Dec 20, 2020)

Amtrak travel is free for employees. What if there was a requirement, at least for certain employees, of a certain number of trips or miles per year?


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## OBS (Dec 20, 2020)

daybeers said:


> Amtrak travel is free for employees. What if there was a requirement, at least for certain employees, of a certain number of trips or miles per year?


That would weed out a lot of Management employees....


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 20, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Geee Wiz!!! Has the present Amtrak management actually indulged in this new contemporary salty oily tasteless mush? Maybe they were shown 'samples' of it as they headed towards the in house restaurant for their lunch of aged steak with gratin potatoes and haricot verts with slivered almonds in scented lemon sauce.
> 
> The real issue is the management... they are out of touch and just don't care. They sit at a desk all day trimming costs then leave with the pockets full of cash from bloated salaries. According to glassdoor.com those managers are getting around $87,000 per year. C'mon folks! They're just out of touch!
> 
> Maybe if the antiquated management structure is updated Amtrak can realize better profits that accompany better service. Yup, I know... first lets get vaccinated and back to normal... but I'm hoping the new normal for Amtrak is a robust and successful rail system! Remember? After WWII America rebuilt with the interstate system. Now it's time to rebuild America with an up to date rail system!


$87K might sound like lots of $$ to people in flyover country but for DC it's just a liveable wage if one is in a two income family.


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## me_little_me (Dec 20, 2020)

daybeers said:


> Amtrak travel is free for employees. What if there was a requirement, at least for certain employees, of a certain number of trips or miles per year?


That's not a solution. The solution is to have upper management who WANT to take the train, anonymously if possible, so they can see the effects of their decisions both positive and negative and adjust those decisions to better the results. Those that don't want to do that should be sent on a one-way coach air trip as the only retirement benefit.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 20, 2020)

Getting a feeling that this discussion is derailing... let's stay on track and focus on Amtrak service that is appreciative and passenger friendly. To reiterate... most don't expect much to happen until the pandemic is behind us and the country is on its feet. At that point we can only hope full passenger service will be reinstated and expanded. And let's fix the food problem with fare thats fresh, healthy, and tasty... 

Complaining about flex fare both on eastern and western routes is justifiable... and needs to be changed. All Amtrak funding needs to be increased because rail travel is environmentally friendly and is a national asset. If the government of Morocco can implement high speed rail travel that puts Acela to shame... yup... let's get back on track!


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 20, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> That's not a solution. The solution is to have upper management who WANT to take the train, anonymously if possible, so they can see the effects of their decisions both positive and negative and adjust those decisions to better the results. Those that don't want to do that should be sent on a one-way coach air trip as the only retirement benefit.


... let's keep our fingers crossed that 'Amtrak Joe' will instill a culture of optimism, priority, and dedication at Amtrak management, and that Congress will get behind a true expansion of our national rail network with very needed funding!


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## Qapla (Dec 20, 2020)

It's all fine and good to say more routes should be added and more frequent trains should run. Even if the money/funding is made available for the additional equipment and personnel and quality services - if the host railroads don't grant more access to their tracks ... what good does the funding do?

More is needed than just funding.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 20, 2020)

Qapla said:


> It's all fine and good to say more routes should be added and more frequent trains should run. Even if the money/funding is made available for the additional equipment and personnel and quality services - if the host railroads don't grant more access to their tracks ... what good does the funding do?
> 
> More is needed than just funding.


Agreed... and most certainly an issue. But there are sometimes solutions... and sometimes not. Possibilities for tax incentives and government contracts for host railroads... or, etc. What is so difficult regarding expanded rail is that land is already taken and very expensive... and in our free democracy there are legal rights and respect to those land owners. The CALI HS project is testament to that. And it is understood that China's HS dominance is made possible by eminent domain tactics that would never be acceptable here.

Then there is land purchase possibilities, bridge over croplands, trails back to rails, etc. as possibilities. It remains to be seen; but for every problem there's a solution... and perhaps some innovative idea that has not yet been thought of... as Einstein said... "Imagination is more important than knowledge."









Topics


Follow top urban news headlines and discover how cities can be reimagined as truly inclusive. Next City publishes stories on solutions to pressing urban issues.



nextcity.org


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## tricia (Dec 20, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> .... What is so difficult regarding expanded rail is that land is already taken and very expensive... and in our free democracy there are legal rights and respect to those land owners. The CALI HS project is testament to that. And it is understood that China's HS dominance is made possible by eminent domain tactics that would never be acceptable here.
> 
> Then there is land purchase possibilities, bridge over croplands, trails back to rails, etc. as possibilities. It remains to be seen; but for every problem there's a solution... and perhaps some innovative idea that has not yet been thought of... as Einstein said... "Imagination is more important than knowledge."...



This is why it's so critically important that Amtrak not lose ANY of its existing routes. Rebuilding even the skeletal network we've got, if pieces of it are abandoned, would be somewhere between insanely difficult and impossible.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 20, 2020)

tricia said:


> This is why it's so critically important that Amtrak not lose ANY of its existing routes. Rebuilding even the skeletal network we've got, if pieces of it are abandoned, would be somewhere between insanely difficult and impossible.


Right on! And... as the US gets more populous; urban centers more crowded; as cars clog the atmosphere with pollution, and as energy resources become more and more an issue... rail travel alternatives will emerge as an important solution... and get priority. Freight lines are already bragging about how these issues have made them more important. Innovation has always been the spirit of America... and rail travel is where it's at!


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 20, 2020)

The focus for Amtrak for the future has to come from the very top person. That person affects everyone’s attitude below them. That person also established the corporation’s goals and directives for the year. Amtrak needs at the helm someone who loves railroading, especially passenger rail, and who has a growth vision for today, tomorrow, and the future. Does Amtrak have that person in place now? Questionable. So in January 2021, will the BOD get their directives that Amtrak is here to stay, but not just stay, but to begin the process of rebuilding the network to what is was. Now for the management team, everything must be prioritized and categorized. Like getting back daily service is very short term, but re-establishing the Dining Car service may be a longer short term due to Covid and locating the necessary staff and supply lines. Medium term would be the design, bid, and order of new long distance equipment. Long term would be network growth. Excite the staff from the top managers down to the lowest level. Make them proud of the company they work for. Reward those individuals who put forth the extra effort and have the most positive attitudes. Make every team goal oriented by setting reachable and positive goals, then reward those teams. Next make the goals a little tougher but reachable. In the end people are excited about what they are doing, exuding that to all those around them, especially passengers, Amtrak Guests.

Without this happening in 2021, nothing changes, it just gets worse and worse, until the company reaches a point of no return.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 20, 2020)

Lonestar648 said:


> The focus for Amtrak for the future has to come from the very top person. That person affects everyone’s attitude below them. That person also established the corporation’s goals and directives for the year. Amtrak needs at the helm someone who loves railroading, especially passenger rail, and who has a growth vision for today, tomorrow, and the future. Does Amtrak have that person in place now? Questionable. So in January 2021, will the BOD get their directives that Amtrak is here to stay, but not just stay, but to begin the process of rebuilding the network to what is was. Now for the management team, everything must be prioritized and categorized. Like getting back daily service is very short term, but re-establishing the Dining Car service may be a longer short term due to Covid and locating the necessary staff and supply lines. Medium term would be the design, bid, and order of new long distance equipment. Long term would be network growth. Excite the staff from the top managers down to the lowest level. Make them proud of the company they work for. Reward those individuals who put forth the extra effort and have the most positive attitudes. Make every team goal oriented by setting reachable and positive goals, then reward those teams. Next make the goals a little tougher but reachable. In the end people are excited about what they are doing, exuding that to all those around them, especially passengers, Amtrak Guests.
> 
> Without this happening in 2021, nothing changes, it just gets worse and worse, until the company reaches a point of no return.


Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had the same idea as you... it's all about dedication and determination... and a leader with positive vision. Some government agencies work better than others... but it is certainly possible that with an Amtrak positive president and new secretary of transport - there can be a bright light for Amtrak.

And would it be so far fetched to have an advisory panel for the transportation secretary to come out of this forum? 

Lots of potential right now; and now is the important time to apply that potential!


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## joelkfla (Dec 20, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> trails back to rails


Has that ever happened? Any attempt to take away existing green space usually meets extreme local opposition.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 20, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> Has that ever happened? Any attempt to take away existing green space usually meets extreme local opposition.


Actually it did in Michigan where a mining company needed the right of way... or something like that. And older rails trails may be to winding etc. however there may be a case for a reconversion in an urban area... a corridor that is needed for rapid transit to pull some of the pollution causing autos off the 'parking lot' freeways. Green space is important and there may be a time when the rail and the trail can coexist side by side with a fence for separation and safety. Let's face it... urban areas are getting choked and there needs to be some give and take. 

Or we could knock down thousands of homes and make another freeway??? 





__





Return of Industry Brings First Ever Trail-to-Rail Conversion in Michigan


Michigan is a national leader in rail-to-trail conversions, but a mining company in the Upper Peninsula will necessitate the first "reactivation" of a trail in the state. The federal Rails to Trails law sanctions such conversions.




www.planetizen.com


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 20, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> and a leader with positive vision.



Like Moorman? Or Boardman?

We need a leader with a vision and what we have is a manager with a calculator.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 20, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Like Moorman? Or Boardman?
> 
> We need a leader with a vision and what we have is a manager with a calculator.


Er... um... we need a leader with vision and strength... who takes the reins and moves us in the direction which is good for passenger service, the environment, the economy, and the country. We need a visionary leader who answers to a calling that is good for all of us.


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## Michigan Mom (Dec 20, 2020)

all I know is Amtrak is heavily promoting its services on social media... either this has greatly increased, or it has been like that for a while and I am just now noticing....


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 21, 2020)

jiml said:


> That's the case in a lot of big cities. Until you've lived in one where a studio condo starts at $600K and a single family home is out of reach for all but couples making a combined income of $200K, $87,000 sounds like a lot of money.



Where are these $600k studios? Not NYC unless possibly in the newest and most luxurious building -- but I don't think they build efficiencies in such buildings. I' ve looked at lots of studio apartments in Manhattan for half the price you quote and some 1 BR units for under $400,000. Incidentally, prices have come down. Maybe your price is for SF or Hawaii?


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 21, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Getting a feeling that this discussion is derailing... let's stay on track and focus on Amtrak service that is appreciative and passenger friendly. To reiterate... most don't expect much to happen until the pandemic is behind us and the country is on its feet. At that point we can only hope full passenger service will be reinstated and expanded. And let's fix the food problem with fare thats fresh, healthy, and tasty...
> 
> Complaining about flex fare both on eastern and western routes is justifiable... and needs to be changed. All Amtrak funding needs to be increased because rail travel is environmentally friendly and is a national asset. If the government of Morocco can implement high speed rail travel that puts Acela to shame... yup... let's get back on track!



I agree that the meals now being served are very unhealthy and lack variety. Solving this is not a difficult task. Amtrak simply has to want to do it.


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## Bostonjetset (Dec 21, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Where are these $600k studios? Not NYC unless possibly in the newest and most luxurious building -- but I don't think they build efficiencies in such buildings. I' ve looked at lots of studio apartments in Manhattan for half the price you quote and some 1 BR units for under $400,000. Incidentally, prices have come down. Maybe your price is for SF or Hawaii?


As someone who lives in another high cost state, MA, I feel like your response misses the point. Even a 300-400K home is “just” affordable for an income of 87K; that salary is not considered anything above middle class in most of the northeast corridor. One is hardly a corporate fat cat with that income.


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 21, 2020)

As for the meals, there must be something more appealing, more healthy, and can be served according to Covid health regulations. Almost anything frozen is high in sodium and preservatives. Big Question??? Has the Amtrak Management Team consumed EACH of the meals being served? I am not talking one manager, but everyone from the highest level down. I sincerely doubt hardly one manager has tried the meals except maybe a specially prepared test meal. They should try living on the food they serve for three nights four days as if they were traveling DC to LA. When they travel they should travel in a roomette with passengers and eat with the passengers. I realize right now Covid makes mingling with passengers difficult, but hopefully by a year from now we are getting more normal.,


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 21, 2020)

Lonestar648 said:


> As for the meals, there must be something more appealing, more healthy, and can be served according to Covid health regulations.



The flex meals were introduced on all east coast trains long before Covid. Covid just made it easy for Amtrak to add them to all west coast trains too.


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## Dakota 400 (Dec 21, 2020)

Michigan Mom said:


> all I know is Amtrak is heavily promoting its services on social media... either this has greatly increased, or it has been like that for a while and I am just now noticing....



If this is a new effort, that says to me that they are trying to advertise to a different demographic than they have done so.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 21, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> If this is a new effort, that says to me that they are trying to advertise to a different demographic than they have done so.



The demographic that has internet access?


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## John Santos (Dec 21, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> That's not a solution. The solution is to have upper management who WANT to take the train, anonymously if possible, so they can see the effects of their decisions both positive and negative and adjust those decisions to better the results. Those that don't want to do that should be sent on a one-way coach air trip as the only retirement benefit.


I'm not particularly enamored with Home Depot (they sell lots of "lowest quality stuff at cheapest possible prices"), but my niece works at their corporate headquarters in Atlanta. She is a recent grad of Georgia Tech and does mathematical modelling and economic projections for them, and is required to work 2 weeks each year on the floor in one of their stores. I think this is a really good policy for keeping the management employees grounded in the real world. Maybe if the top-level management had to serve a week or two each year as an SCA or LSA or behind a ticket counter... There might be union problems with this, but I think the unions might agree if they thought it would make management more sympathetic to labor issues.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 21, 2020)

Problems with Amtrak management are nothing new. It would take really strong national leadership to clean it up; we have an incoming president who is best positioned to make a difference at Amtrak. 

And if management is to be successful, they should tap this forum for a sounding board... there are some very experienced and competent minds which feed us all some very vital and meaningful information. Collectively we have come up with a treasure trove of ideas... and every board of directors that want to manage successfully rely on client input.

Am I out of place for concluding that our members have been coming up with great ideas and have brought forth successfully the many issues that have been impairing Amtrak operations? If Amtrak management was actually listening to its clientele, they would already be aware of the Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum. Wondering how others on this forum feel about being listened to directly by Amtrak management?


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 21, 2020)

Current management sees this forum as a bunch of railfans. And they aren’t wrong for the most part (sure there are exceptions). 

None of the good ideas are hard to think up. Good quality food. Clean trains. On time performance. Good and consistent customer service. Clean, attractive stations.


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## niemi24s (Dec 21, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Current management sees this forum as a bunch of railfans.


What leads you to believe anybody in management [I assumed you meant _Amtrak_ management] sees this forum?


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 21, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> What leads you to believe anybody in management [I assumed you meant _Amtrak_ management] sees this forum?



Maybe read the post ahead of mine that I was replying to?


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## Michigan Mom (Dec 21, 2020)

Dining car service on a one night train to the East out of Chicago is not a major issue for me, the delays are. Having said that, they could offer so much better choices than the microwave TV dinners.
It doesn't take a lot of imagination. Prepackaged salads and sandwiches even? Flex dining is not a terrible concept for the eastern third of the country, it could certainly be executed better.


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## Qapla (Dec 21, 2020)

Of the various problems with the dining options for the Easter trains, if they are to remain with "flex dining" ... while they could make the food better - for what they are offering compared to what used to be offered or what full dining on the Western trains was ... they need to LOWER the prices of the sleeper fares. Since they have removed a value item from the overall trip the fare should be adjusted accordingly. The small difference they had on the Star when they discontinued meals compared to the Silver when they still had full dining was not enough of a price difference.

There would be far less complaints if the worthless food was removed from the ticket price and the fares lowered enough to make purchasing or bringing food worth the fare.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 22, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Of the various problems with the dining options for the Easter trains, if they are to remain with "flex dining" ... while they could make the food better - for what they are offering compared to what used to be offered or what full dining on the Western trains was ... they need to LOWER the prices of the sleeper fares. Since they have removed a value item from the overall trip the fare should be adjusted accordingly. The small difference they had on the Star when they discontinued meals compared to the Silver when they still had full dining was not enough of a price difference.
> 
> There would be far less complaints if the worthless food was removed from the ticket price and the fares lowered enough to make purchasing or bringing food worth the fare.


But it goes back to management again. There is a disconnect between Amtrak, costing, and service.


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## Sidney (Dec 22, 2020)

I just returned from a trip on the Silver Star. My favorite of the flex offerings is the Shrimp in Lobster Sauce which tasted subpar. I had the pasta which left me queasy. Again,why don't they offer soup and sandwiches as part of their flex menu? I understand the situation with the pedemic,but there has to be more variety on a cross country trip

Of course most of us on this forum have been complaining about the food since flex dining was introduced and there has been virtually no improvement at all. On a recent trip on the Southwest Chief I actually bought a burger and a cup of noodles from the cafe car and it was better than anything on the flex menu and I was in a sleeper. Why can't sleeper passengers have the option of cafe car items? 

I remember when Richard Anderson touted the new flex dining as a revolutionary move to Amtrak's dining. Never have I seen such a positive spin on a huge downgrade in service.


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## OBS (Dec 22, 2020)

John Santos said:


> I'm not particularly enamored with Home Depot (they sell lots of "lowest quality stuff at cheapest possible prices"), but my niece works at their corporate headquarters in Atlanta. She is a recent grad of Georgia Tech and does mathematical modelling and economic projections for them, and is required to work 2 weeks each year on the floor in one of their stores. I think this is a really good policy for keeping the management employees grounded in the real world. Maybe if the top-level management had to serve a week or two each year as an SCA or LSA or behind a ticket counter... There might be union problems with this, but I think the unions might agree if they thought it would make management more sympathetic to labor issues.


They actually tried this once back in 1989 or 1990...all Management were to work two shifts in different roles over which they have some responsibility. I don't think the program lasted long enough for it to be implemented across the country, before it was quietly scrapped....


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## jis (Dec 22, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> What leads you to believe anybody in management [I assumed you meant _Amtrak_ management] sees this forum?


There was a time when several people from Amtrak management were regulars on this forum. They seem to have slowly disappeared one by one. I am not sure if any remain. Someone among the Admins may know more precisely.

But many particpants in this forum are also members, some even quite active, of the RPA and its Council. They do bring some of the more achievable ideas from this Board to that forum and through that to Amtrak. Suffice it to say that not all get through the RPA Council discussions, as that in itself is a very opinionated and sometimes contentious place with various overlapping agenda decking it out.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 22, 2020)

jis said:


> There was a time when several people from Amtrak management were regulars on this forum. They seem to have slowly disappeared one by one. I am not sure if any remain. Someone among the Admins may know more precisely.
> 
> But many particpants in this forum are also members, some even quite active, of the RPA and its Council. They do bring some of the more achievable ideas from this Board to that forum and through that to Amtrak. Suffice it to say that not all get through the RPA Council discussions, asthat in itself is a very opinionated and sometimes contentious place with various overlapping agenda decking it out.



Thank you for the info. Can see by your extraordinary number of posts and and your AU lifetime membership.. that what you say has a lot of credibility. I always look forward to reading your posts!


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## flitcraft (Dec 22, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Am I out of place for concluding that our members have been coming up with great ideas and have brought forth successfully the many issues that have been impairing Amtrak operations? If Amtrak management was actually listening to its clientele, they would already be aware of the Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum. Wondering how others on this forum feel about being listened to directly by Amtrak management?


I'd be surprised and frankly thrilled if somebody there were monitoring this forum. I think the posts here are thoughtful and balanced, for the most part, and the gripes that get expressed here ought to register with Amtrak management if they care about maintaining clientele. After all, anyone who spends time on a forum like this is almost certainly a repeat rider! Compared to the cesspool that is most of the Internet, this forum is Athenian democracy!


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 22, 2020)

flitcraft said:


> I'd be surprised and frankly thrilled if somebody there were monitoring this forum. I think the posts here are thoughtful and balanced, for the most part, and the gripes that get expressed here ought to register with Amtrak management if they care about maintaining clientele. After all, anyone who spends time on a forum like this is almost certainly a repeat rider! Compared to the cesspool that is most of the Internet, this forum is Athenian democracy!



Right on... and if no one at Amtrak management is aware of or monitoring this forum, they are disconnected with the clientele they are serving!

All the comments made by our thoughtful posts are logical and demonstrate understanding of the pandemic and financial impact; but are resourceful and have come up with ideas that are do-able.


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## jis (Dec 22, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Right on... and if no one at Amtrak management is aware of or monitoring this forum, they are disconnected with the clientele they are serving!
> 
> All the comments made by our thoughtful posts are logical and demonstrate understanding of the pandemic and financial impact; but are resourceful and have come up with ideas that are do-able.


I should also mention that when I knew the people that were monitoring they did it mostly by stealth. I knew them personally so I knew, but most on the Forum had no clue. There were one or two that ever posted anything, and even then most did not know for sure that they were from Amtrak unless they knew so otherwise through other channels. So you can never know for sure.


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 22, 2020)

Question I have is: Does the Amtrak management care about what the Amtrak passengers think and want? At a couple companies I worked for enforced the “Ride Along Program” where all managers were required to ride with the field people a minimum of five business days a year to be eligible for bonuses. One week, I had the company COO ride with me Sunday through Saturday. I was surprised, he spent very little time on his business, most he wanted to know my customers, my projects, my tasks, and my team members. He helped with everything we did, even getting dirty with my team. Doing this I believe makes a major difference with customers and employees.


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## railiner (Dec 22, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Right on... and if no one at Amtrak management is aware of or monitoring this forum, they are disconnected with the clientele they are serving!
> 
> All the comments made by our thoughtful posts are logical and demonstrate understanding of the pandemic and financial impact; but are resourceful and have come up with ideas that are do-able.





jis said:


> I should also mention that when I knew the people that were monitoring they did it mostly by stealth. I knew them personally so I knew, but most on the Forum had no clue. There were one or two that ever posted anything, and even then most did not know for sure that they were from Amtrak unless they knew so otherwise through other channels. So you can never know for sure.


I find this subject interesting...When I first went to work for a railroad (BN), I was warned by acquaintance's, to not give any clue to their recruiter that I was a railfan, as that was a sure fire way of not getting hired. And I found that professional railroader's mostly have disdain for those of us that are. Sure there are many, but many keep it 'in the closet'.

As for railroad management monitoring this and other rail enthusiast forum's...this subject comes up often on the "Cruise Critic's" cruise ship forum...of whether or not cruise line management monitor their forum. Now that particular one is an extremely large one (owned by Trip Advisor owner's), and does have somewhat of a close relationship with some cruise lines for promotional purposes like having "gathering's" (meet and greet) on board...and some lines even have "verified social media" reps answering some of the criticism and question's on various threads. Other's do not, but very likely do monitor the air, regardless.

Even if Amtrak does not officially respond to AU, I am confident that at least some of their management is following what is said here, even if they may not share with us, or even with other Amtrak management...


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## me_little_me (Dec 22, 2020)

railiner said:


> Even if Amtrak does not officially respond to AU, I am confident that at least some of their management is following what is said here, even if they may not share with us, or even with other Amtrak management...


Personally, I don't care if Amtrak management pays attention to this forum because hearing it from us is meaningless compared to seeing it for themselves.
A dozen of us could cry all day about the food but to see customers take a few bites of the "flex menu" then dump it in the trash with an angry comment or see people buying food in the cafe instead of eating the included meals or being forced to eat the same meals over and over on a trip or not having special diet food mean more than anything.
Seeing the inconsistency of onboard personnel or the creation of their own rules means a lot more than any letters of complaint later.

Seeing the sometimes failure of Amtrak people to properly handle misrouted luggage, late trains, and Covid failures on bustitutions means much more than reading about it in the media articles.

BUT ONLY IF THE CARE! AND THEY DON'T CARE because they don't do it.

They simply are not doing the job for which they are paid and that's stealing.

And if I really said what I thought of them ...


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## pennyk (Dec 22, 2020)

jis said:


> There was a time when several people from Amtrak management were regulars on this forum. They seem to have slowly disappeared one by one. I am not sure if any remain. Someone among the Admins may know more precisely.
> 
> But many particpants in this forum are also members, some even quite active, of the RPA and its Council. They do bring some of the more achievable ideas from this Board to that forum and through that to Amtrak. Suffice it to say that not all get through the RPA Council discussions, asthat in itself is a very opinionated and sometimes contentious place with various overlapping agenda decking it out.


At one time, there were several AU members who were members of the Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee (which was terminated a couple of years ago). Amtrak management did listen to ACAC members and participated in its meetings and conferences.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 22, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Personally, I don't care if Amtrak management pays attention to this forum because hearing it from us is meaningless compared to seeing it for themselves.
> A dozen of us could cry all day about the food but to see customers take a few bites of the "flex menu" then dump it in the trash with an angry comment or see people buying food in the cafe instead of eating the included meals or being forced to eat the same meals over and over on a trip or not having special diet food mean more than anything.
> Seeing the inconsistency of onboard personnel or the creation of their own rules means a lot more than any letters of complaint later.
> 
> ...



Thank you for voicing the frustration so many of us feel! This whole flex thing is just plain wrong... and all the chips are now down. But what is so off putting is that people are paying top prices for accommodation with meals, then throwing those meals away and purchasing food in the cafe car... which is a bit more palatable but certainly not healthy.

Amtrak is just taking advantage of the public who prefer rail travel because there is no competition... and no care for the well being of the traveling public.

Our national rail system needs to reflect governmental responsibility to the traveling public. Is our government failing us or is it a government for the people? And my rant is not just about the food... those coaches need to be maintained and or updated; there needs to be a better working relationship with the freight companies who own those rails; there needs to be more overall cooperation and more pride in moving our country forward.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 22, 2020)

pennyk said:


> At one time, there were several AU members who were members of the Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee (which was terminated a couple of years ago). Amtrak management did listen to ACAC members and participated in its meetings and conferences.



Good to know there once was an Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee... it should certainly be reinstated!


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## tricia (Dec 23, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Personally, I don't care if Amtrak management pays attention to this forum because hearing it from us is meaningless compared to seeing it for themselves.
> A dozen of us could cry all day about the food but to see customers take a few bites of the "flex menu" then dump it in the trash with an angry comment or see people buying food in the cafe instead of eating the included meals or being forced to eat the same meals over and over on a trip or not having special diet food mean more than anything.
> Seeing the inconsistency of onboard personnel or the creation of their own rules means a lot more than any letters of complaint later.
> 
> ...



And the flip side of that: Only by riding the trains will management see the employees who do an exceptionally GOOD job, making customers comfortable and happy, creatively solving problems that management might not even have considered, dealing with fallout from pennywise, pound foolish practices like the crappy frozen dinners....


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## CTANut (Dec 23, 2020)

I am thinking about starting a petition to allow sleeper passengers a $20 credit at the Cafe car in lieu of a flexible dining meal. 
Also, I saw where the dining car attendant was punching in meals into a cash register at say $34 for a chicken Alfredo meal. Why do they have to do this where the meals are free for sleeper car passengers.


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## jis (Dec 23, 2020)

CTANut said:


> I am thinking about starting a petition to allow sleeper passengers a $20 credit at the Cafe car in lieu of a flexible dining meal.
> Also, I saw where the dining car attendant was punching in meals into a cash register at say $34 for a chicken Alfredo meal. Why do they have to do this where the meals are free for sleeper car passengers.


That is how money is transferred into the Food Service account from the ticket revenue account.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 23, 2020)

CTANut said:


> I am thinking about starting a petition to allow sleeper passengers a $20 credit at the Cafe car in lieu of a flexible dining meal.
> Also, I saw where the dining car attendant was punching in meals into a cash register at say $34 for a chicken Alfredo meal. Why do they have to do this where the meals are free for sleeper car passengers.



$20 doesn't get much for the overpriced junk food in the cafe car... and when you consider the new higher fares for roomettes a lot more than that is priced in sleeper accommodations for meals. And that chicken Alfredo meal which is read at $34 at the cash register is a kind of accounting 'gibberish' from management... and you can also purchase a plastic drinking glass for $1 because that's the actual amount used in accounting for 'whatever.' Amtrak management doesn't know and doesn't care.

BTW the actual amount of costing for the few ounces of that chicken Alfredo is $2 to $3 plus 'handling.' And how many milligrams of actual chicken do you think is in that puddle of sodium, fat, and chemical taste enhancers??? 

Let's hear it for flex meals!


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 23, 2020)

Is the hot water from the dispenser hot enough to brew decent coffee with a pour over basket?


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## tricia (Dec 23, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Is the hot water from the dispenser hot enough to brew decent coffee with a pour over basket?



From the dispenser in the dining car or cafe, yes. I've often used it successfully for making tea, which also requires really hot water to taste right.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 23, 2020)

Question! Where does the attendant get the water for coffee urn in the sleeper car [pre covid]? I suspect they get it from the bathroom sink but am not sure. I've never seen them toting in water from the diner and they certainly don't use the bottled water. I've never noticed a water dispenser in the superliner passenger cars.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Is the hot water from the dispenser hot enough to brew decent coffee with a pour over basket?



Unless you plan to make coffee during a service stop I would highly recommend a French press over a pour over on a moving train!


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## Dakota 400 (Dec 23, 2020)

pennyk said:


> At one time, there were several AU members who were members of the Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee (which was terminated a couple of years ago). Amtrak management did listen to ACAC members and participated in its meetings and conferences.



I remember that Committee. Why was it terminated?


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## jis (Dec 23, 2020)

Dakota 400 said:


> I remember that Committee. Why was it terminated?


Anderson defunded it.

Incidentally it also removed a significant conflict of interest at RPA that many had been complaining about.


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## lordsigma (Dec 23, 2020)

CTANut said:


> I am thinking about starting a petition to allow sleeper passengers a $20 credit at the Cafe car in lieu of a flexible dining meal.
> Also, I saw where the dining car attendant was punching in meals into a cash register at say $34 for a chicken Alfredo meal. Why do they have to do this where the meals are free for sleeper car passengers.


The cafe car is nothing to write home about right nowadays. All the fresh sandwich and salad options have been removed due to Covid. It’s mostly microwaved and sweet stuff.


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## lordsigma (Dec 23, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> then throwing those meals away and purchasing food in the cafe car... which is a bit more palatable but certainly not healthy.


I have yet to see someone do this. I get it a lot of members here don’t like the flex dining but I really don’t understand the praise here for the cafe car. They have cut it down to bare bones - I guess if you want the microwave burger or hot dog you are good to go, but in the morning it is basically all the same stuff you can get for free. All the cafe car salads and sandwiches have been cut due to Covid. It’s all microwave packaged stuff and sweets. As I have said a million times it seems all the conversation here is focused on flexible dining but Amtrak has cut across the board in all aspects of f&b just as airlines have. Everyone is just trying to survive right now and frankly I don’t think they care about variety or any of that. There just aren’t that many people riding to really care about food quality. Cases and hospitalizations are sky high. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with complaining and brainstorming ideas - but if anything thinks Amtrak is going to change anything before the pandemic is behind us is naive.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I get it a lot of members here don’t like the flex dining but I really don’t understand the praise here for the cafe car.


I’d take the cafe car veggie burger, a bag of chips, and a pack of peanut m&ms over any of the flex meals personally. 

That’s not praising the cafe car, that’s just a sad statement of how bad the flex meals are imho.


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## lordsigma (Dec 23, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’d take the cafe car veggie burger, a bag of chips, and a pack of peanut m&ms over any of the flex meals personally.
> 
> That’s not praising the cafe car, that’s just a sad statement of how bad the flex meals are imho.


Don’t get me wrong I’m done with Covid just as much as anyone I just think we are spinning our wheels here until the pandemic is over - Amtrak is not going to change anything at least until then. Just trying to be a realist. I personally think they will bring back traditional dining out west. I’m in full agreement flex dining in the east needs improvement I just think while ridership is still bleeding it’s going to be a hard sell to change anything - and I think the important thing is to prioritize the advocacy on restoring the frequencies to daily ASAP and then the conversation can move to things like food.


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## CameraObscura76 (Dec 24, 2020)

Michigan Mom said:


> all I know is Amtrak is heavily promoting its services on social media... either this has greatly increased, or it has been like that for a while and I am just now noticing....
> [/QUOTE
> I’ve been noticing this as well.


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## Sidney (Dec 24, 2020)

Amtrak is always promoting on Facebook and the responses are usually positive. A couple of times Amtrak was promoting their flexible dining with pictures and touting the first beer or wine was free. That's when the negative comments erupted. Amtrak should not be promoting their food.


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## Qapla (Dec 24, 2020)

Instead of changing what they serve during C-19 - why not just discontinue serving any food with a sleeper, lower the price of the sleeper fare and let people bring their own and/or buy from the café car


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## Bostonjetset (Dec 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Instead of changing what they serve during C-19 - why not just discontinue serving any food with a sleeper, lower the price of the sleeper fare and let people bring their own and/or buy from the café car


Careful what you wish for...generally when companies do that they don’t lower the price enough to make it worthwhile. Also, those types of things work best when prices are fixed. A la carte pricing is a hard sell when there are fare buckets with dynamic pricing based in demand...otherwise it comes across as nickel and diming because some people will pay more without food than they did pre-change with food included.


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## Lonestar648 (Dec 24, 2020)

I agree that nothing will change much until the majority have the vaccine and the numbers are way down to an acceptable level. Nothing in the cafe right now is any better to me than the provided meal.


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## me_little_me (Dec 24, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I have yet to see someone do this. I get it a lot of members here don’t like the flex dining but I really don’t understand the praise here for the cafe car. They have cut it down to bare bones - I guess if you want the microwave burger or hot dog you are good to go, but in the morning it is basically all the same stuff you can get for free. All the cafe car salads and sandwiches have been cut due to Covid. It’s all microwave packaged stuff and sweets. As I have said a million times it seems all the conversation here is focused on flexible dining but Amtrak has cut across the board in all aspects of f&b just as airlines have. Everyone is just trying to survive right now and frankly I don’t think they care about variety or any of that. There just aren’t that many people riding to really care about food quality. Cases and hospitalizations are sky high. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with complaining and brainstorming ideas - but if anything thinks Amtrak is going to change anything before the pandemic is behind us is naive.


My wife did it after seeing some millennials do it on our train. She said she had enough of the same meal as only one entree on the menu could she stomach. She had tried my meals as well as her own of which she threw away half. And my wife is much more open to different foods than I am!


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## IndyLions (Dec 24, 2020)

We’re all just surviving these days, Amtrak is no different. I took one long COVID era trip after dropping my daughter off with a car near Boston. That trip was Boston-NYP on Acela, NYP-Charlottesville (CVS) on the Crescent, CVS-Crawfordsville IN on the Cardinal.

I got the box meal in Acela FC, and Flex Dining on the two LD routes. I got by ok - but have no restrictions. If you take a trip in these Covid times with special dietary needs, you really have no choice but to bring your own food. That’s just the way it is, unfortunately.

After this is all over, I’ll go back to lobbying the powers that be for a return of appropriate dining options. Even at its peak - there was nothing over the top about Amtrak Dining Car food. If they want to modernize it, add some healthier choices to the menu - and go back to more freshly cooked items by onboard chefs.

I think recent management should have a little better fiscal reputation in Congress. Hopefully with a friendly administration they can expand service where it makes sense and bring onboard services back to a civilized level.

Probably wishful thinking.


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## lordsigma (Dec 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Instead of changing what they serve during C-19 - why not just discontinue serving any food with a sleeper, lower the price of the sleeper fare and let people bring their own and/or buy from the café car


I would not want to be forced to buy from the cafe car right now - as I’ve stated before it’s also been cut. This is not the cafe car that was avaiable on the silver star when they removed dining entirely - on a long trip the few items they have from there would also get old - and while you can bring your own stuff it is tricky to heat stuff. The exception to this is the auto train which still has a full cafe car for the coach passengers and of course better meals for sleepers. It would be one thing to do this on a one night train but to have nothing but microwave burgers and hot dogs and noodle cups and frozen pizzas on the two nighters wouldn’t really cut it. Plus knowing Amtrak they would never have enough stock. The corridor cafes are actually rather embarrassing at the moment - literally the menu board is littered with sold out stickers over all the stuff they cut from the menu.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 24, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> We’re all just surviving these days, Amtrak is no different. I took one long COVID era trip after dropping my daughter off with a car near Boston. That trip was Boston-NYP on Acela, NYP-Charlottesville (CVS) on the Crescent, CVS-Crawfordsville IN on the Cardinal.
> 
> I got the box meal in Acela FC, and Flex Dining on the two LD routes. I got by ok - but have no restrictions. If you take a trip in these Covid times with special dietary needs, you really have no choice but to bring your own food. That’s just the way it is, unfortunately.
> 
> ...



The only thing that would have been different pre-covid was Acela FC. the Crescent and Cardinal had the flex menu before covid.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 24, 2020)

Will be cancelling that 'dream trip' on Amtrak purchased for 85,000 points... scheduled for early January. We are entering a most dangerous and critical period as the pandemic continues to spread as vaccinations are ramping up. I will see if the agent can reschedule this trip for next November for about the same number of points... but kind-a think it will take even more.

This is the itinerary... all sleeping accommodations: EUG to LAX, LAX to CHI, overnight in CHI on own account, CHI to WAS on the Cardinal, overnight in WAS on own account, WAS to BOS in regional business class, overnight in BOS on own account, BOS to CHI, CHI to PDX, PDX back to EUG on a bus.

In addition to risking exposure to COVID, the food would include about 20 flex lunches and dinners [along with 20 of those same old same old brownies] and about 10 flex cardboard and sugar breakfasts. Bad food!

Simply no telling what the future holds for Amtrak at this point but would rather stay home than risk my life while choking on those awful disgusting processed meals.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 24, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Instead of changing what they serve during C-19 - why not just discontinue serving any food with a sleeper, lower the price of the sleeper fare and let people bring their own and/or buy from the café car



I'm all for having no included food rather than the abysmal disgusting stuff they have now and bring down the price... but they'd rather include cheep cheap food to keep prices inflated.


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## lordsigma (Dec 24, 2020)

Oh on another note I am taking 97 next week - this is my first trip I received the email allowing me to pre select my dinner item. It offered the choice of a three cheese manicotti in addition to the normal choices - I wonder if this is an extra item that’s only available if you preorder.


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## lordsigma (Dec 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The only thing that would have been different pre-covid was Acela FC. the Crescent and Cardinal had the flex menu before covid.


Well and the cafe cars would normally offer more choices to give you more of an alternative to the flex meals.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 24, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Oh on another note I am taking 97 next week - this is my first trip I received the email allowing me to pre select my dinner item. It offered the choice of a three cheese manicotti in addition to the normal choices - I wonder if this is an extra item that’s only available if you preorder.



Three cheese manicotti looks something like this... but if it's a flex meal I doubt it


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## Sidney (Dec 24, 2020)

I booked a mid January circle tour from Harrisburg to Portland via the The Pennsylvanian,Capitol Limited and EB,The Coast Starlight to Martinez,on to Fresno,overnight ,onto LA,Texas Eagle to Chicago,Cardinal to Charlottesville,overnight and back up to Pa. on a NE Regional and Keystone. Roomettes most of the way. Coach to Chicago and Portland to Martinez. The guarantee of both seats to yourself was the clincher and I saved a few hundred bucks. Points and cash.

I rode many several times in the past year. No problems. Amtrak is very good enforcing Covid restrictions. Only downside is the food,but that doesn't deter me from riding. There will be enough breaks where I can purchase better food. 

With Amtrak's three days a week schedule,planning this was tough. I wanted to take the Zephyr out but I had to overnight in Chicago. I also wanted to make sure I had a same day connection in LA. With the dire situation there I didn't want to spend more time there than I had to. In Fresno,there is a La Quinta three blocks from the station.

I understand concerns with this never ending pedemic(or so it seems). I always wear a mask and social distance. As mentioned,a sleeper is one of the safest places to be. Only downer is the flex dining.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 24, 2020)

Sidney said:


> ,a sleeper is one of the safest places to be.


 
I’m not as convinced about that as you are.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 24, 2020)

In the sleepers you're getting recirculated air through the vents.

Why risk it?









Is it safe to travel by train during a pandemic? Doctors and cleaning experts weigh in, plus details on new protocols from Amtrak.


To find out if train travel is safe right now, we talked to experts and an Amtrak representative to find out risks to know when boarding during COVID.




www.businessinsider.com


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## Bostonjetset (Dec 24, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> I'm all for having no included food rather than the abysmal disgusting stuff they have now and bring down the price... but they'd rather include cheep cheap food to keep prices inflated.


People always say this until they realize they just pay the same inflated prices but without the included food. Norwegian Cruise Lines went down the road of charging extra for things that use to be included and their prices didn’t drop dramatically.


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## Sidney (Dec 24, 2020)

I've been on three cross country trips in the last six months using sleepers. I understand the concerns,but I have had no problems at all.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 24, 2020)

Bostonjetset said:


> People always say this until they realize they just pay the same inflated prices but without the included food. Norwegian Cruise Lines went down the road of charging extra for things that use to be included and their prices didn’t drop dramatically.



And when Amtrak replaced full service dining with the flex flop program prices went unchanged... or higher!


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 24, 2020)

Sidney said:


> I've been on three cross country trips in the last six months using sleepers. I understand the concerns,but I have had no problems at all.



Yes... but with COVID it's hit and miss... like... it's all chance. Thousands are dying each day. For me, needless risk is totally unjustified.


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## IndyLions (Dec 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The only thing that would have been different pre-covid was Acela FC. the Crescent and Cardinal had the flex menu before covid.


True - but that was a Mica, Anderson & Trump problem. Now it’s a Covid problem that (in my opinion) will prevent us from lobbying for improved food until it’s over. When Covid ends - we’ll see if the lack of Mica, Anderson and Trump will help our efforts or not.


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## IndyLions (Dec 24, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> I'm all for having no included food rather than the abysmal disgusting stuff they have now and bring down the price... but they'd rather include cheep cheap food to keep prices inflated.



If they don’t drop prices for sleepers during Covid (other than specials on companion fares) - then I don’t see them ever dropping Sleeper fares for any reason - certainly not for food. The Star was an experiment, and that’s over. 

Whether that is right or “fair” is a moot point. They are equipment constrained and they tend to fill up the sleepers they have at the higher pricing - so why change?


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## IndyLions (Dec 24, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes... but with COVID it's hit and miss... like... it's all chance. Thousands are dying each day. For me, needless risk is totally unjustified.



It’s true it’s hit or miss. I’ve travelled quite a bit during Covid because I felt like I had to. I’ve driven, taken Amtrak and flown multiple airlines.

My assessment based simply on experience is they can all be equally safe or equally unsafe, depending on how you look at it.

Personally, I feel restaurants pose the biggest risks while traveling. People tend to spend an hour or more in a public place with their mask off.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 24, 2020)

niemi24s said:


> What leads you to believe anybody in management [I assumed you meant _Amtrak_ management] sees this forum?


The forum was started by an Amtrak employee with management's awareness and approval, members have provided information and explanations that rank and file employees don't seem to know about, some uniformed staff have said they know about the forum but don't comment because they have been told it's monitored, members more connected than I have stated that management sometimes monitors the forum, we've had at least one contributor who sounded like a focus group plant, and I've had someone claiming to be Amtrak management reach out to me to inquire about comments in a post. It doesn't seem to be as common these days and maybe in a vacuum none of these examples would mean much, but when viewed in totality I'm inclined to believe it.



railiner said:


> I find this subject interesting...When I first went to work for a railroad (BN), I was warned by acquaintance's, to not give any clue to their recruiter that I was a railfan, as that was a sure fire way of not getting hired. And I found that professional railroader's mostly have disdain for those of us that are. Sure there are many, but many keep it 'in the closet'.


Field work is a different world from desk work. Amtrak is super progressive compared to the freight industry but I'd still be careful about admitting rail fan status. Even if the hiring manager did not personally care he'd know you're someone who volunteers information that could potentially cause friction with other resources. As a trainspotter I've certainly experienced "suspicious activity" shakedowns after a train passed by. I get that safety warnings come with the territory but when I was a kid they let me walk through active yards unchallenged and now they hassle me ten feet away from the loop track. I will say that for some employees it's the recording (and potential for reporting) that bothers them more than simply being a rail fan. I'm generally pretty safe at work but if someone pointed a recording device at me I'd probably consider them more of a threat than a friend.


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## railiner (Dec 24, 2020)

Brian Gallagher, when he ran operations at Amtrak, certainly was aware of AU...had the pleasure of his company on an Amtrak Autumn Excursion, and he teased a few of us, warning he'd "better not read his insider comments on AU"...


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 25, 2020)

Lonestar648 said:


> As for the meals, there must be something more appealing, more healthy, and can be served according to Covid health regulations. Almost anything frozen is high in sodium and preservatives. Big Question??? Has the Amtrak Management Team consumed EACH of the meals being served? I am not talking one manager, but everyone from the highest level down. I sincerely doubt hardly one manager has tried the meals except maybe a specially prepared test meal. They should try living on the food they serve for three nights four days as if they were traveling DC to LA. When they travel they should travel in a roomette with passengers and eat with the passengers. I realize right now Covid makes mingling with passengers difficult, but hopefully by a year from now we are getting more normal.,



Yes and, as you said, they should travel in Roomettes without toilets to see how pleasant it is to trudge down the hall in the middle of the night - and risk infection during Covid. And eat the unhealthy food served. Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen. It's just a job.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 25, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Of the various problems with the dining options for the Easter trains, if they are to remain with "flex dining" ... while they could make the food better - for what they are offering compared to what used to be offered or what full dining on the Western trains was ... they need to LOWER the prices of the sleeper fares. Since they have removed a value item from the overall trip the fare should be adjusted accordingly. The small difference they had on the Star when they discontinued meals compared to the Silver when they still had full dining was not enough of a price difference.
> 
> There would be far less complaints if the worthless food was removed from the ticket price and the fares lowered enough to make purchasing or bringing food worth the fare.



I really wish they'd remove the "free food" and reduce sleeper fares. This was a bad concept from the start.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 25, 2020)

Lonestar648 said:


> I agree that nothing will change much until the majority have the vaccine and the numbers are way down to an acceptable level. Nothing in the cafe right now is any better to me than the provided meal.


Fauci says masks will continue after the vaccines as vaccines are not 100% effective so looks like a very long haul...and there are now new strains in the UK and South Africa that will almost certainly reach USA. Will new vaccines be needed?


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 25, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> In the sleepers you're getting recirculated air through the vents.
> 
> Why risk it?
> 
> ...



How safe are upholstered seats? When attendants make up beds do they use fresh latex gloves or do they use their bare hands which may not have been carefully washed? Are compartments carefully sanitized after occupants have departed and prior to others entering the same compartment? Are frequent contact surfaces (doorknobs, light switches, bathrooms etc) sanitized? How often do employees change masks en route? Who monitors all of this to assure compliance?


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## Trogdor (Dec 25, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Yes and, as you said, they should travel in Roomettes without toilets to see how pleasant it is to trudge down the hall in the middle of the night - and risk infection during Covid.



What, exactly, would this accomplish? Make them waive their magic wands and put private toilets in every roomette (physically impossible to do on Superliners, as the plumbing doesn’t exist). Turn back the clock 8 years to when the Viewliner II sleepers were ordered? **** off the other half of AU that whines that having a toilet in the roomette is the equivalent to a prison cell?


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## jis (Dec 25, 2020)

railiner said:


> Brian Gallagher, when he ran operations at Amtrak, certainly was aware of AU...had the pleasure of his company on an Amtrak Autumn Excursion, and he teased a few of us, warning he'd "better not read his insider comments on AU"...


Brian has been and probably still is a member of AU. In the past he has posted on AU several times even when he was Boardman's right hand man, although not necessarily about any deep Amtrak secrets or insights. He is a good friend of several of us. He is still quite active on Facebook among friends. Too bad he is not as active in Amtrak operations any more. He might have retired from Amtrak finally, though I am told he is still occasionally seen at the Albany base, which was always his home base. Anderson pretty much sent him off to purgatory as far as I can tell.


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## jis (Dec 25, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Fauci says masks will continue after the vaccines as vaccines are not 100% effective so looks like a very long haul...and there are now new strains in the UK and South Africa that will almost certainly reach USA. Will new vaccines be needed?


The current prognosis is that the affected parts are not the specific spike proteins used in the vaccines. But of course that could change since RNA viruses are expected to mutate faster than DNA viruses. But we also know how to gin up a new vaccine in a matter of days now too.

Since we are quoting Dr. Fauci, perhaps it would be appropriate to listen through this entire interview in detail to hear things from the horse's mouth. Note what he says about October/November...









Dr. Fauci On When Life Will Return To ‘Normal’


It’s the holiday season, and thanks to the hard work of many, many scientists, we got the best gift of all: COVID-19 vaccines that work better than any of us co…




fivethirtyeight.com


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 25, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> What, exactly, would this accomplish? Make them waive their magic wands and put private toilets in every roomette (physically impossible to do on Superliners, as the plumbing doesn’t exist). Turn back the clock 8 years to when the Viewliner II sleepers were ordered? **** off the other half of AU that whines that having a toilet in the roomette is the equivalent to a prison cell?



Those who found the presence of toilets in the rooms objectionable may feel differently now that Covid is a factor. Superliners will have to be replaced eventually. New equipment should be designed with toilets in every room. I don't believe Roomettes are large enough for two berths; I'd return them to traditional one person Roomettes. There is no reason to manufacture according to the same designs. A Democrat Administration is more likely to be sympathetic to Amtrak. Hopefully funding will improve, better equipment can be ordered and Amtrak will be under less pressure. Before more mistakes are made, Amtrak management needs to see for themselves what it's like to travel in Superliner Roomettes, especially with two people in the claustrophobic rooms. They also need to eat the food provided for two or three days. That might influence planning.


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## Trogdor (Dec 25, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Those who found the presence of toilets in the rooms objectionable may feel differently now that Covid is a factor. Superliners will have to be replaced eventually. New equipment should be designed with toilets in every room. I don't believe Roomettes are large enough for two berths; I'd return them to traditional one person Roomettes. There is no reason to manufacture according to the same designs. A Democrat Administration is more likely to be sympathetic to Amtrak. Hopefully funding will improve, better equipment can be ordered and Amtrak will be under less pressure. Before more mistakes are made, Amtrak management needs to see for themselves what it's like to travel in Superliner Roomettes, especially with two people in the claustrophobic rooms. They also need to eat the food provided for two or three days. That might influence planning.



1) There are people on this very forum who, just in the last couple of weeks (i.e. long after COVID became a factor) complained about toilets in rooms and wanted to know if they could book a trip and be guaranteed a new Viewliner without a toilet in the room. My memory on this is hazy, but as I recall when the new Viewliners were ordered, it was explained that those that liked an in-room toilet and those that didn’t were somewhat evenly split, but those that didn’t like it felt much more strongly against it than those who liked it felt strongly for it. This was among all passengers, not just AUers/railfans.

2) COVID won’t always be a factor, and railcars have a 40+ year service life. Toilets in every room was easy when railcars didn’t need plumbing. Now that they do, it requires a lot more maintenance. That adds to cost x 40 years.

3) If COVID bothers you a lot (and I’m not saying it shouldn’t, it’s a serious virus with potentially deadly effects), the answer is really to stay home, not to worry about the 2-3 minutes at a time you’ll spend in a restroom shared by a few others).

4) Amtrak management absolutely do know what it’s like in roomettes

5) If you think roomettes are too small for two people, feel free to book one just for yourself and not share it with anyone. Nobody is stopping you.

6) A [Democratic] administration has nothing to do with anything regarding roomette design. The Viewliner IIs were ordered under a Democratic administration (again, not that it means anything). All of the current Amtrak board members except for Elaine Chao (as Secretary of Transportation) and William Flynn (as CEO) have been around since the Obama administration. It still takes both houses of Congress to pass a bill that would legislatively direct Amtrak to do anything. So, what’s supposed to change?


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## Willbridge (Dec 25, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Problems with Amtrak management are nothing new. It would take really strong national leadership to clean it up; we have an incoming president who is best positioned to make a difference at Amtrak.
> 
> And if management is to be successful, they should tap this forum for a sounding board... there are some very experienced and competent minds which feed us all some very vital and meaningful information. Collectively we have come up with a treasure trove of ideas... and every board of directors that want to manage successfully rely on client input.
> 
> Am I out of place for concluding that our members have been coming up with great ideas and have brought forth successfully the many issues that have been impairing Amtrak operations? If Amtrak management was actually listening to its clientele, they would already be aware of the Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum. Wondering how others on this forum feel about being listened to directly by Amtrak management?


In the days before the WWW, it was known that Amtrak presidents Paul Reistrup and Graham Claytor read the blog-like little magazine _Rail Travel News. _I was asked a couple of times _not _to write up something that was not supposed to be happening. And in the early 80's an Amtrak marketing planner rode VIA Rail across Canada specifically to see how they did things.

Serious firms do that sort of thing. I had "tea at the Brown" Palace in Denver with a woman who was a manager with a hotel chain that I won't identify. It was on their credit card so that she could see that famous ritual.


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## Mailliw (Dec 25, 2020)

How about this; Amtrak reinstates traditional dining, but replaces all the seats in the dining car with toilets.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 26, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> 1) There are people on this very forum who, just in the last couple of weeks (i.e. long after COVID became a factor) complained about toilets in rooms and wanted to know if they could book a trip and be guaranteed a new Viewliner without a toilet in the room. My memory on this is hazy, but as I recall when the new Viewliners were ordered, it was explained that those that liked an in-room toilet and those that didn’t were somewhat evenly split, but those that didn’t like it felt much more strongly against it than those who liked it felt strongly for it. This was among all passengers, not just AUers/railfans.
> 
> 2) COVID won’t always be a factor, and railcars have a 40+ year service life. Toilets in every room was easy when railcars didn’t need plumbing. Now that they do, it requires a lot more maintenance. That adds to cost x 40 years.
> 
> ...



I think everyone will agree that compartments with toilets in separate en suite bathrooms (Bedroom style) would be preferable not only in terms of comfort but hygiene. The US is a developed country. Bathrooms down the hall is really a retrograde idea. The whole design of Superliner replacement cars needs rethinking. I suggest abolishing the Roomette design altogether. In addition, if traditional dining is a thing of the past, consideration has to be given to food storage and heating facilities in sleeping cars. Covid may not be around forever but it is already mutating in the UK and South Africa. There will be other viruses. Whatever happens, our way of life has changed permanently. Everyone from architects to home buyers will be influenced by what has happened. Amtrak cannot be an exception. A lot has happened since the last Democrat administration. There is reason to think that some serious pro passenger train decisions could be made in the near future.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 26, 2020)

Mailliw said:


> How about this; Amtrak reinstates traditional dining, but replaces all the seats in the dining car with toilets.



Funny but to be serious, a better solution to the food issue would be to seriously upgrade so-called flexible dining and cafe car selections. I don't think this is going to happen, however, before Amtrak is taken off survival mode. The Superliners are going to have to be replaced before long but does Amtrak management really want that? Or would they prefer to see the long haul system dismantled? If Amtrak is to have a future outside the Northeast Corridor, its own board and management need to be committed to a national system. I suspect the incoming Administration may be the last real chance to make changes. As for dining, I don't see a return to tradition. A compromise could be to make major improvements to cafe car service and substantial upgrades to in-room sleeping car dining. Frozen food does not have to be bad but Amtrak must use some imagination and make a little effort in seeking out better purveyors.


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## Ziv (Dec 26, 2020)

The mRNA vaccines should cover any mutations of the Covid 19 virus according to a couple articles that I have read this week. The way things have gone, that could be completely outdated/not necessarily true next month. ;-)
Fauci may want us to stay masked up, but if the risk is perceived to be lower it will be impossible to keep people masked up in most venues once the fear level is lower. We will probably mask up on mass transit much like the Japanese did after SARS and before Covid, but don't mistake todays surety for tomorrows. We tend to think that what has become normal will stay normal, when in point of fact it was never normal at all. If that makes any sense at all. LOL!
And in point of fact it doesn't matter if the vaccines are only 95% effective. Once you get to a certain point it becomes very difficult for a contagious person to find someone who isn't carrying the antibodies at a level needed to protect them. And when the R-factor drops below 1 by a significant amount we will have effectively ended the threat. It won't be completely gone, but the clamor to go back to something closer to "normal" will be unstoppable. And for good reason. We have done unmeasurable damage to our national economy, as has just about every nation that has locked down. The lockdown has been a huge factor in the recent spike in suicide (according to CDC director Redfield) and in the destruction of family businesses that have been those families lifelong dreams. Undiagnosed illnesses have unnecessarily become fatal due to a lack of health care, again due to people sheltering at home. 
We aren't going to throw our masks away and we may never go back to singing in the choir at church, but in many ways we will go back much closer to what used to be considered normal.
And on a lighter note, I imagine that restaurants will never go back to the "pack 'em in!" sort of table arrangement that they used to do. Tables will probably stay far enough apart so that I won't be able to hear the conversation at the three tables nearest me!  Hand me enough lemons and I can make a lot of lemonade!



Ferroequinologist said:


> Fauci says masks will continue after the vaccines as vaccines are not 100% effective so looks like a very long haul...and there are now new strains in the UK and South Africa that will almost certainly reach USA. Will new vaccines be needed?


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## Ziv (Dec 26, 2020)

In one end and out the other. How efficient!



Mailliw said:


> How about this; Amtrak reinstates traditional dining, but replaces all the seats in the dining car with toilets.


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## Trogdor (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I think everyone will agree that compartments with toilets in separate en suite bathrooms (Bedroom style) would be preferable not only in terms of comfort but hygiene.



I’ve got good news for you! Such an accommodation already exists on Amtrak, bookable today on every train with a sleeper.



> The US is a developed country. Bathrooms down the hall is really a retrograde idea.



Bathrooms down the hall also exists on lots of trains in Canada, Europe, Australia, etc.



> I suggest abolishing the Roomette design altogether.



Why? Because you don’t like it?


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 26, 2020)

Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.


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## lordsigma (Dec 26, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> I’ve got good news for you! Such an accommodation already exists on Amtrak, bookable today on every train with a sleeper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The roomettes are popular and are a more affordable choice than bedrooms - I think eliminating them would be a mistake.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 26, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> I’ve got good news for you! Such an accommodation already exists on Amtrak, bookable today on every train with a sleeper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are there sleepers in Canada with bathrooms down the hall? I thought they were using old Budd sleepers - or have they modified them? I haven't been on VIA in years. Do the British built sleepers on the Ocean have toilets down the hall? I have never ridden them. I did ride the Indian-Pacific in Australia and I remember a private bathroom. I thought all the sleepers had private baths but maybe not. Yes, I know that Europe has sleepers with toilets down the hall. You can still find hotels like that in Europe but the US has always had a higher standard. I do think that Covid is changing attitudes about hygiene.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 26, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.



Planes don't take two or three days to get to their destinations and there is now a lot of concern about transmitting germs.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I think everyone will agree that compartments with toilets in separate en suite bathrooms (Bedroom style) would be preferable not only in terms of comfort but hygiene. The US is a developed country. Bathrooms down the hall is really a retrograde idea. The whole design of Superliner replacement cars needs rethinking. I suggest abolishing the Roomette design altogether. In addition, if traditional dining is a thing of the past, consideration has to be given to food storage and heating facilities in sleeping cars. Covid may not be around forever but it is already mutating in the UK and South Africa. There will be other viruses. Whatever happens, our way of life has changed permanently. Everyone from architects to home buyers will be influenced by what has happened. Amtrak cannot be an exception. A lot has happened since the last Democrat administration. There is reason to think that some serious pro passenger train decisions could be made in the near future.



But why can't we take a hint from rail car design from Europe and Japan??? Europe will be increasing overnight sleepers and rooms with ensuite compartments are being designed. Why oh why is the USA so backward and cheap when it comes to rail travel??? Long before the pandemic I didn't like the idea of sharing restrooms with so many others which tend to not be cleaned as often as they should... and are harbingers of the flu and cold viruses.

The superliners are generally uncomfortable and poorly designed... with folks struggling to get luggage up and down those narrow stairwells and having to put hand on the germ laden handrails to keep a footing. And of course the cooling and heating systems are problematic... and no place to go for fresh air.









Europe Is Getting Several New Sleeper Trains That Will Link 13 Popular Destinations


Taking an overnight train in Europe is about to get a whole lot easier.




www.travelandleisure.com


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 26, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> The roomettes are popular and are a more affordable choice than bedrooms - I think eliminating them would be a mistake.



I'd redesign single passenger accommodations to include toilets in some form. With a larger subsidy fares don't have to be so high.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 26, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> But why can't we take a hint from rail car design from Europe and Japan??? Europe will be increasing overnight sleepers and rooms with ensuite compartments are being designed. Why oh why is the USA so backward and cheap when it comes to rail travel??? Long before the pandemic I didn't like the idea of sharing restrooms with so many others which tend to not be cleaned as often as they should... and are harbingers of the flu and cold viruses.
> 
> The superliners are generally uncomfortable and poorly designed... with folks struggling to get luggage up and down those narrow stairwells and having to put hand on the germ laden handrails to keep a footing. And of course the cooling and heating systems are problematic... and no place to go for fresh air.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why we upgrade homes, upgrade hotels and public amenities but we downgrade passenger train accommodations, at least sleepers. Superliner Roomettes and the new Viewliner Roomettes w.o toilets were a major downgrade. How ironic when bathrooms, once very basic, have seen major upgrades in new home and commercial construction. Americans got away from shared hotel bathrooms decades ago while Europe still has lots of them. I remember years ago being upset at the dirty conditions in Superliner bathrooms. Soon after getting to my destination I came down with a flu which I think was due to the unhygienic conditions of the bathrooms on the SW Chief. I agree too that the Superliner stairs are a nuisance and the Roomettes could be much better designed. Doors should have locks from the outside. The curtains never properly cover the glass windows. More outlets are badly needed. I've seen newer sleepers in Europe with sleeper windows that could be partly opened - maybe three or four inches at the top. That is a blessing when the room is stuffy and the AC doesn't work and it would greatly help with air circulation, especially now that Covid is such an issue.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 26, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.



Passengers on planes have no options unless it's a short flight. On short flights people can control what they drink before boarding so as to avoid use on the plane.


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## railiner (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> With a larger subsidy fares don't have to be so high.


How much larger? Perhaps you think that it should be large enough so you could travel for free? 
Not going to happen, nor should it. Amtrak should be able to cover its operating cost from fares. Subsidies should cover use of infrastructure, like it does for other modes of travel. I would support increased subsidies to cover that, but not for operating cost...


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why we upgrade homes, upgrade hotels and public amenities but we downgrade passenger train accommodations, at least sleepers. Superliner Roomettes and the new Viewliner Roomettes w.o toilets were a major downgrade. How ironic when bathrooms, once very basic, have seen major upgrades in new home and commercial construction. Americans got away from shared hotel bathrooms decades ago while Europe still has lots of them. I remember years ago being upset at the dirty conditions in Superliner bathrooms. Soon after getting to my destination I came down with a flu which I think was due to the unhygienic conditions of the bathrooms on the SW Chief. I agree too that the Superliner stairs are a nuisance and the Roomettes could be much better designed. Doors should have locks from the outside. The curtains never properly cover the glass windows. More outlets are badly needed. I've seen newer sleepers in Europe with sleeper windows that could be partly opened - maybe three or four inches at the top. That is a blessing when the room is stuffy and the AC doesn't work and it would greatly help with air circulation, especially now that Covid is such an issue.



Amen! And... two years ago after taking a transcon journey to Maine I came down with the flu... I had actually complained about dirty conditions in sleeper accommodations and lounge areas. And I always complain about lack of fresh air. What's the big deal about needing 'sealed' ventilation systems? May European trains have windows that open a few inches that don't allow careless people to throw things out the window or lean out. 

So... if they have 'flex dining,' why can't they have 'flex windows' that open just a crack???


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 26, 2020)

railiner said:


> How much larger? Perhaps you think that it should be large enough so you could travel for free?
> Not going to happen, nor should it. Amtrak should be able to cover its operating cost from fares. Subsidies should cover use of infrastructure, like it does for other modes of travel. I would support increased subsidies to cover that, but not for operating cost...



I would like to see those fares subsidized to encourage greater use of rail for transportation... that would also be a subsidy for the environment. A subsidy for rail infrastructure would also bring down the cost of those tickets. Here's an interesting article on passenger rail subsidies...









The Economic Case for Rail Subsidies


Service increases may pay for themselves through emissions reductions and safety improvements, even before factoring in congestion.




www.bloomberg.com


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## jiml (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Are there sleepers in Canada with bathrooms down the hall? I thought they were using old Budd sleepers - or have they modified them? I haven't been on VIA in years.


Yup. Budd "sections" (upper and lower berths) have communal bathrooms, whereas roomettes and bedrooms are ensuite.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 26, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> I would like to see those fares subsidized to encourage greater use of rail for transportation... that would also be a subsidy for the environment. A subsidy for rail infrastructure would also bring down the cost of those tickets. Here's an interesting article on passenger rail subsidies...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They didn't say anything about air travel and airport and Radar subsidies.

"What they found is that increasing rail service frequency by 10 percent reduced road accidents by 4.6 percent. Higher frequency rail service significantly cut down on certain nitrogen emissions too. The source of the savings seemed to be people who got off the roads and onto the rails: increased passenger rail service reduced car and motorcycle use by nearly 3 percent on commutes and leisure trips alike."


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> ........Do the British built sleepers on the Ocean have toilets down the hall? I have never ridden them. ...... .



No.....the British built 'Renaissance' Sleepers all have private toilets and some of the bedrooms also have private showers:


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## Mailliw (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I'd redesign single passenger accommodations to include toilets in some form. With a larger subsidy fares don't have to be so high.


If the accommodation is too small to fully enclose the toilet it's too small to have a toilet. 



lordsigma said:


> The roomettes are popular and are a more affordable choice than bedrooms - I think eliminating them would be a mistake.


Agreed. If anything Amtrak should consider some all roomette cars; they can used as first class day compartments or budget overnight travel. 



20th Century Rider said:


> But why can't we take a hint from rail car design from Europe and Japan??? Europe will be increasing overnight sleepers and rooms with ensuite compartments are being designed....


For starters Japan isn't building new sleepers except for high luxury land cruise tourist trains. The new Nightjets are well designed and the ensuite premium compartments look better than any Amtrak has, but Nightjet also has couchettes something Amtrak lacks. The new Nightjet couchettes are a mixture of capsule hotel style pods and 4 berth group compartments, but none of them have ensuites.


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## jiml (Dec 26, 2020)

Mailliw said:


> If anything Amtrak should consider some all roomette cars; they can used as first class day compartments or budget overnight travel.


They had them, called Slumbercoaches - all retired. One of their last stands was the weekend-only overnight train to Toronto, which has details posted on AU somewhere.


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## jis (Dec 26, 2020)

If you take a census of all Sleeping accommodation in trains of the world today, en-suite toilets are an exception, not the rule.


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## Qapla (Dec 26, 2020)

What they have in other countries is irrelevant. Perhaps a survey should/could be taken in the US to see if in-room toilet facilities is a desire or not. It would be best if they were "private" instead of open to the room as they are in roomettes.

How would it be if all new rolling stock was built in the viewliner style (single level) so it could be used on all trackage instead of usable in certain areas.

By making the rooms larger (bedroom style) might make people much more comfortable post COVID as would windows that could be partially opened.

Some of us may have to yield what we think/like/or think to do what would increase ridership to a point where Congress and many others would agree that rail is a feasible venture and provide the needed financial backing/funding to bring it back to something think of "first" instead of a "last resort" or "Oh, I didn't know they were still trains" mentality like there is now.

If that means funding fares, so be it. If it means removing dining in favor of people bringing their own food, so be it. If it requires adding toilets and refrigerators and microwaves to all rooms (or sleeper cars) so be it.

It may mean that Amtrak does NOT make a profit any more than the Interstate highway system does ... but if it brings rail travel back to the mainstream, wouldn't it be worth the added expense?


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 26, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Are there sleepers in Canada with bathrooms down the hall? I thought they were using old Budd sleepers - or have they modified them?



Yes there are public restrooms in the sleeping cars on VIA. The Roomettes have not been rebuilt, they have the standard toilet in the room that is covered by the bed at night. I always used the public restroom and did not use the in room toilet when I took VIA.


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## jis (Dec 26, 2020)

Qapla said:


> What they have in other countries is irrelevant. Perhaps a survey should/could be taken in the US to see if in-room toilet facilities is a desire or not. It would be best if they were "private" instead of open to the room as they are in roomettes.


Before arriving at the Viewliner II Roomette design, Amtrak claims to have dose a customer survey on the matter of Commodes in Roomettes and it came out significantly opposed to having the Commodes in the room. I don;t know whether the details of the survey but it was mentioned by several people who many of us otherwise trust. I feel confident that the decision was not made lightly. But who knows?


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## jis (Dec 26, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes there are public restrooms in the sleeping cars on VIA. The Roomettes have not been rebuilt, they have the standard toilet in the room that is covered by the bed at night. I always used the public restroom and did not use the in room toilet when I took VIA.


Likewise. But then again I am not allergic to using shared toilets like some apparently are.


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## Qapla (Dec 26, 2020)

jis said:


> Amtrak claims to have dose a customer survey on the matter of Commodes in Roomettes and it came out significantly opposed to having the Commodes in the room.



Yes, in "Roomettes" - that is a semi-private toilet .. not one enclosed like those in bedrooms - and, that survey was pre-COVID.

Perhaps a new survey/study is in order and should include the option for a roomette large enough to have an enclosed toilet.


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## Mailliw (Dec 26, 2020)

The problem with making bedrooms larger is that in means fewer (and thus more expensive) rooms per sleeping car. If you want Amtrak to have an equivalent to VIA's Prestige class on a few of the Western LDs that's fine, but you need more affordable options as well. Not everyone wants a land cruise; some of us just want a comfortable place to sleep traveling overnight. 


jiml said:


> They had them, called Slumbercoaches - all retired. One of their last stands was the weekend-only overnight train to Toronto, which has details posted on AU somewhere.
> 
> View attachment 19876
> View attachment 19877


Yes, a modern version of the Slumbercoach (w/o the toilets) would be an ideal intermediate option between seated coached and sleepers.


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## Qapla (Dec 26, 2020)

And some of us think Amtrak, since it is owned by the Gov't, should be funded like other gov't owned things are ... funded accordingly. That would allow for lower consumer fares if you are not trying to make a profit from a gov't operated venture - the same way they do not expect the Interstate Highway system to make a profit.


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## jis (Dec 26, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Perhaps a new survey/study is in order and should include the option for a roomette large enough to have an enclosed toilet.


One thing that cannot be modified is laws of Physics. If a Roomette is made large enough to have a separate toilet it becomes a Bedroom. The Bedrooms in the VIA Renaissance rolling stock would be examples of such. And once they become Bedrooms they cost even more. It would be nice to have many more Sleepers with Bedrooms, for sure. But that does not serve the purpose of providing a cheaper flat bed accommodation. It solves a different problem. It is almost certain that COVID does not reduce the latent demand for an inexpensive sleeping accommodation. If shared facilities were such a problem people would have stopped riding Coach too. They still apparently prefer to pay the lower fares and use shared facilities.


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## Palmetto (Dec 26, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Planes only have a bathroom down the hall. That doesn't stop people from jumping up to use it the second the Seatbelts lights go off.



I've found that some people don't wait even that long.


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## railiner (Dec 27, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> I've found that some people don't wait even that long.


Agreed...as soon as that "10,000 feet ding" has sounded, some jump up...but then, so do the flight attendants, to begin their cabin service...


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## jiml (Dec 27, 2020)

railiner said:


> Agreed...as soon as that "10,000 feet ding" has sounded, some jump up...but then, so do the flight attendants, to begin their cabin service...


It's more of a problem at the back of the plane where both the carts and main bathrooms are. In the front cabin, frequent flyers know that the "ding" either means "hit the head" or get the laptop out.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes there are public restrooms in the sleeping cars on VIA. The Roomettes have not been rebuilt, they have the standard toilet in the room that is covered by the bed at night. I always used the public restroom and did not use the in room toilet when I took VIA.



I was not referring to public toilets in addition to in-room toilets, rather to Roomettes w/o toilets. I recall in pre Amtrak days sleepers had a public toilet at the end of the hall. It's the ABSENCE of an in-room toilet that is the issue.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

jis said:


> Before arriving at the Viewliner II Roomette design, Amtrak claims to have dose a customer survey on the matter of Commodes in Roomettes and it came out significantly opposed to having the Commodes in the room. I don;t know whether the details of the survey but it was mentioned by several people who many of us otherwise trust. I feel confident that the decision was not made lightly. But who knows?



Yes, who knows. I was never asked. Were you?


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

Mailliw said:


> The problem with making bedrooms larger is that in means fewer (and thus more expensive) rooms per sleeping car. If you want Amtrak to have an equivalent to VIA's Prestige class on a few of the Western LDs that's fine, but you need more affordable options as well. Not everyone wants a land cruise; some of us just want a comfortable place to sleep traveling overnight.
> 
> Yes, a modern version of the Slumbercoach (w/o the toilets) would be an ideal intermediate option between seated coached and sleepers.



Adequate subsidies should reduce fares. Let's see how pro passenger train the Biden administration is. The current Covid-19 relief bill before President Trump includes funding for two new museums (Latinx and women), $10 mil for gender programs for Pakistan, $500 mil for Jordanian defense spending, $500 mil for Israeli Cooperative Programs, etc. Maybe they can come up with a little to help bring US passenger trains up-to-date and make them affordable for the US taxpayers who are funding this spending.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Amen! And... two years ago after taking a transcon journey to Maine I came down with the flu... I had actually complained about dirty conditions in sleeper accommodations and lounge areas. And I always complain about lack of fresh air. What's the big deal about needing 'sealed' ventilation systems? May European trains have windows that open a few inches that don't allow careless people to throw things out the window or lean out.
> 
> So... if they have 'flex dining,' why can't they have 'flex windows' that open just a crack???



Of course they can but somehow there is an inflexible mindset here that windows must be perpetually sealed, not even one or two inches can be open. As for hygiene, anyone who has stayed in good hotels during this health crisis knows that extensive measures are being taken to assure hygienic conditions. I posed the question on this forum: do attendants wear fresh gloves when they make up beds, do they carefully clean rooms, including in-room toilets and bathrooms after passengers have detrained and others have entered the same room? I'd like to see Amtrak's instruction manual for this. I suspect Pullman Company rules were stricter without a pandemic to worry about.


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## railiner (Dec 27, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Have you looked at the contents of the Covid-19 relief funding? See my comments elsewhere. If everything should be self funding, why are we spending $10 mil for gender studies in Pakistan, $500 to fund the Jordanian military etc etc. Give me a break.


Good question...I agree with you on this. "Charity begins at home...."


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## railiner (Dec 27, 2020)

As far as windows opening...I am not sure that is a good idea, especially for high speed trains. And for any trains, open windows would have some impact on the HVAC system. I think it would be much better if they simply reduced the amount of recirculated air those systems use, and increase the percentage of fresh air taken in by those systems.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

railiner said:


> Good question...I agree with you on this. "Charity begins at home...."



I don't know why you think Amtrak should be expected to pay for itself unless you follow a strict Libertarian point of view. What is really self-sufficient? There are tax breaks all over the place, subsidies direct and indirect, government intervention everywhere - and this is under normal conditions. One more aspect of the Covid relief bill: $15 billion for Broadway, small music venues and movie theatres. I guess more performance of Cats takes priority over a decent national rail system?


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

railiner said:


> As far as windows opening...I am not sure that is a good idea, especially for high speed trains. And for any trains, open windows would have some impact on the HVAC system. I think it would be much better if they simply reduced the amount of recirculated air those systems use, and increase the percentage of fresh air taken in by those systems.



We're talking about a few inches at the top of windows in private room sleepers, not open coaches.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

jiml said:


> Yup. Budd "sections" (upper and lower berths) have communal bathrooms, whereas roomettes and bedrooms are ensuite.


Yes, right. These are quaint remnants of another age - and they were replaced when trains upgraded to private room sleepers for which passengers were grateful. I don't know why VIA continues these, maybe because they can't afford new equipment? For nostalgic reasons? Do you propose replacing Superliners with section cars?


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## Trogdor (Dec 27, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> We're talking about a few inches at the top of windows in private room sleepers, not open coaches.



And when someone forgets to close the window when the train goes through Moffat Tunnel and passengers get asphyxiated from diesel exhaust, then what?


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## jis (Dec 27, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Yes, who knows. I was never asked. Were you?


Yes. And my feedback was get the Commode out of the Roomette.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

Qapla said:


> What they have in other countries is irrelevant. Perhaps a survey should/could be taken in the US to see if in-room toilet facilities is a desire or not. It would be best if they were "private" instead of open to the room as they are in roomettes.
> 
> How would it be if all new rolling stock was built in the viewliner style (single level) so it could be used on all trackage instead of usable in certain areas.
> 
> ...



I don't think long haul travel can be mainstreamed until compartments are made larger and include private bathrooms. Standards in the US are a lot higher than those of other countries, including many European countries where there are still a lot of hotels with bathrooms down the hall. Railfans may put up with the inconveniences of today's status quo but most people will expect more. Sorry to say it but a lot of today's population really don't care about traditional dining and many seem uncomfortable with sharing tables. It may be that improving cafe car selections and improving in- room dining could be the solution with focus on more comfortable equipment and more hygienic conditions. Lounge cars can be designed more like hotel lobbies or cocktail lounges with a few group seating areas that allow people to mix when they want to. This would still allow for some socializing. Covid is changing the world. It's affecting home design, where people live and how they live. These changes are likely to be permanent. Amtrak needs to come to terms with this.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 27, 2020)

Qapla said:


> And some of us think Amtrak, since it is owned by the Gov't, should be funded like other gov't owned things are ... funded accordingly. That would allow for lower consumer fares if you are not trying to make a profit from a gov't operated venture - the same way they do not expect the Interstate Highway system to make a profit.





Trogdor said:


> And when someone forgets to close the window when the train goes through Moffat Tunnel and passengers get asphyxiated from diesel exhaust, then what?


Would that really happen? What did people do before air conditioning? You are probably right however that some environmental law would prevent opening windows an inch. But then what happens when AC breaks down. Don't some passengers get sick?


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## joelkfla (Dec 27, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Yes, right. These are quaint remnants of another age - and they were replaced when trains upgraded to private room sleepers for which passengers were grateful. I don't know why VIA continues these, maybe because they can't afford new equipment? For nostalgic reasons? Do you propose replacing Superliners with section cars?


If you ever checked the last-minute deals on Canadian fares, there were usually some berths available. But even if they don't sell out, some were occupied on my trip. Why spend to take them out as long as they're pulling in fares?


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## joelkfla (Dec 27, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> And when someone forgets to close the window when the train goes through Moffat Tunnel and passengers get asphyxiated from diesel exhaust, then what?


It might stink up the car for a little while, but an efficient HVAC system with suitable outside air intake should clear it out pretty quickly. The poor soul who left the window open would just have to deal with it in their own compartment a while longer.

Do the many sleepers with opening windows in other countries not travel though tunnels?

BTW, does the crew on Superliners switch the HVAC to full recirculate when they pass through Moffat currently?


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## tricia (Dec 27, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Yes, right. These are quaint remnants of another age - and they were replaced when trains upgraded to private room sleepers for which passengers were grateful. I don't know why VIA continues these, maybe because they can't afford new equipment? For nostalgic reasons? Do you propose replacing Superliners with section cars?


VIA continues selling berths because passengers keep buying them. They're a lower-cost, lie-flat option.


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## 20th Century Rider (Dec 27, 2020)

Qapla said:


> the same way they do not expect the Interstate Highway system to make a profit.


As so many of us have stated... Amtrak is a government service for the citizens just as the interstate is. The benefits for the environment and traffic congestion relief... and overall quality of life in America... are incalculable. Amtrak is an American treasure as well... and once it's allowed to fade away... it'll be gone. We as taxpayers should insist that some of the money we are sending to the government be spent on a national travel necessity and should be a spending priority!


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 27, 2020)

tricia said:


> VIA continues selling berths because passengers keep buying them. They're a lower-cost, lie-flat option.



Yes......they are still popular here! There's only 3 Sections in each Chateau or Manor car with 3 lower berths and 3 uppers for a total occupancy of 6 people. The space occupied by the fourth section was converted to a public shower. You can see that here on the right (where the ladders to the uppers are stored)........


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## railiner (Dec 27, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> It might stink up the car for a little while, but an efficient HVAC system with suitable outside air intake should clear it out pretty quickly. The poor soul who left the window open would just have to deal with it in their own compartment a while longer.
> 
> Do the many sleepers with opening windows in other countries not travel though tunnels?
> 
> BTW, does the crew on Superliners switch the HVAC to full recirculate when they pass through Moffat currently?


IIRC, before the CZ enters the Moffat, they shut down the A/C system, and also request passenger's not pass between cars during the ten minute period....


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## toddinde (Dec 27, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I really wish they'd remove the "free food" and reduce sleeper fares. This was a bad concept from the start.


It’s not a bad idea with the way the diners were operated because it created more certainty in how much food to stock. I would be in favor of a new dining car concept that provided service from say 6:00 am to 10:00 pm and offered a variety of options from full meals to snacks. In that scenario, the diner would serve all passengers and could charge all passengers, though including meals for first class is not a bad idea.


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## toddinde (Dec 27, 2020)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Yes......they are still popular here! There's only 3 Sections in each Chateau or Manor car with 3 lower berths and 3 uppers for a total occupancy of 6 people. The space occupied by the fourth section was converted to a public shower. You can see that here on the right (where the ladders to the uppers are stored)........


They’re quite ingenious really, and a nice way to travel. An Amtrak roomette is really just an enclosed section.


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## railiner (Dec 27, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I don't know why you think Amtrak should be expected to pay for itself unless you follow a strict Libertarian point of view. What is really self-sufficient? There are tax breaks all over the place, subsidies direct and indirect, government intervention everywhere - and this is under normal conditions


I did say that I support subsidy for Amtrak infrastructure, but not operating expenses, to be on par with other modes. Amtrak's owner collects taxes. Other modes pay taxes. A strict Libertarian would not support even paying for its infrastructure....


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 27, 2020)

toddinde said:


> They’re quite ingenious really, and a nice way to travel. An Amtrak roomette is really just an enclosed section.



Yup.....an Amtrak Roomette (Superliner type) is really not much more than a VIA Section with a door instead of a curtain. The toilet and shower are down the hall!

A Viewliner Roomette (older type) does have a toilet (in the room) and sink. I haven't been in one of the new Viewliner Roomettes. I believe they have a sink but you use the public toilet down the hall.


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## railiner (Dec 27, 2020)

toddinde said:


> They’re quite ingenious really, and a nice way to travel. An Amtrak roomette is really just an enclosed section.


The Pullman Company did have some lightweight section sleepers, where they experimented with sliding aluminum door panels, instead of the traditional heavy fabric curtains....


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## jiml (Dec 27, 2020)

You could view sections as simply airline business class with lay-flat seats and no privacy. Having sat in one several times while having regular rooms made up, they actually seem roomier than roomettes. With all the recent discussion of Amtrak needing some sort of lay-flat business option (Delta One seats, etc.) for overnight trains, the solution was devised 70 years ago and is still in use today.


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## Mailliw (Dec 27, 2020)

tricia said:


> VIA continues selling berths because passengers keep buying them. They're a lower-cost, lie-flat option.


Bingo.



toddinde said:


> They’re quite ingenious really, and a nice way to travel. An Amtrak roomette is really just an enclosed section.


Pretty much; the major difference is both berths can be sold independently (the upper is cheaper).


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 27, 2020)

The Renaissance Sleepers on the _Ocean_ are shorter than North American cars so they only have 10 Bedrooms. Berth capacity with an upper and lower in each room is 20 persons so a low revenue per car. Each has an enclosed toilet and 6 units also have a private shower with the enclosed toilet. (Everything gets wet....but I never found that a big problem!)

Single occupancy of a Ren Sleeper only requires a small supplement. You are never paired up with a stranger which seems to be quite acceptable in Europe.


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## jiml (Dec 27, 2020)

I know VIA has issues with the Renaissance cars, but I can't believe they don't have a future somewhere. I have yet to sleep in one, but our designated shower space was in one on our last two trips, they ride well (the complexity of the suspension is obvious) and I really like the diner/lounges.


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## NS VIA Fan (Dec 27, 2020)

jiml said:


> I know VIA has issues with the Renaissance cars, but I can't believe they don't have a future somewhere. ........



VIA has said the Rens will be used on the 'Hybrid' _Ocean_ when it returns (it will also include Budd equipment). Ren Sleepers will probably be around for awhile yet as they have been modified to provide Barrier-Free Handicapped facilities which the Budd Sleepers do not have. I much prefer a smooth riding Ren to a Budd.....especially in Budd Bedrooms with the folding partition that tends to rattle!


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## jis (Dec 27, 2020)

jiml said:


> I know VIA has issues with the Renaissance cars, but I can't believe they don't have a future somewhere. I have yet to sleep in one, but our designated shower space was in one on our last two trips, they ride well (the complexity of the suspension is obvious) and I really like the diner/lounges.


Well, something that was designed to run at upto 200kph better ride well at the pokey speeds at which they operate in North America! 

Incidentally, I do agree about the superior ride quality when compared to the Budd cars. It is quite noticeable. Fortunately unlike Amtrak who seem to have endless problem trying to figure out the right flange profile to use since the profile used in the NEC is different from the ones used by freight railroads, VIA seems to have settled on a single one, since they do not yet have to worry about operating speeds of 200+kph. One of the reasons that Viewliners ride poorly on the NEC is this subtle difference in flange profiles.


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## OBS (Dec 27, 2020)

jis said:


> Well, something that was designed to run at upto 200kph better ride well at the pokey speeds at which they operate in North America!
> 
> Incidentally, I do agree about the superior ride quality when compared to the Budd cars. It is quite noticeable. Fortunately unlike Amtrak who seem to have endless problem trying to figure out the right flange profile to use since the [profile used in the NEC is different from the ones used by freight railroads, VIA seems to have settled on a single one, since they do not yet have to worry about operating speeds of 200+kph. One of the reasons that Viewliners ride poorly on the NEC is this subtle difference in flange profiles.


Interesting! Thanks.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 27, 2020)

toddinde said:


> It’s not a bad idea with the way the diners were operated because it created more certainty in how much food to stock. I would be in favor of a new dining car concept that provided service from say 6:00 am to 10:00 pm and offered a variety of options from full meals to snacks. In that scenario, the diner would serve all passengers and could charge all passengers, though including meals for first class is not a bad idea.



What you described is basically the original cross country cafe concept. An all day menu available, and then additional items available during meal times for either take out or sit down.


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## willem (Dec 27, 2020)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Yup.....an Amtrak Roomette (Superliner type) is really not much more than a VIA Section with a door instead of a curtain.





jiml said:


> [...] they actually seem roomier than roomettes.



The seats seem significantly wider than those in Amtrak roomettes (so that two people could actually sit together on one), and the bed appears much wider, probably because it goes to the curtain. Amtrak leaves a space between the bed and the wall.

I've never slept in a Via section, but I've heard it is much more comfortable than an Amtrak roomette. Jim, would you like to weigh in?


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## jiml (Dec 27, 2020)

willem said:


> I've never slept in a Via section, but I've heard it is much more comfortable than an Amtrak roomette. Jim, would you like to weigh in?


Honestly I have been seated in one probably six times in total on VIA, but it was always while our regular room (or my roomette if travelling alone) was being made up for bed or returned to day mode. The attendant would ask passengers to wait in a vacant one during the service. (Amtrak often use a vacant roomette the same way - at least in my Superliner experiences.) The great pic in Post 298 is the more recent upholstery update in the Budd Manor and Chateau sleepers; previously they were "less modern", and the blue VIA ex-CN sleepers could be be described as "more plush" - more from being old than intentionally. My wife never wanted to try a section since one's "stuff" was out in the open when in the lounge or diner and on few solo trips I was more comfortable in an "unshared" accommodation, plus for a considerable time VIA did not include meals with section tickets.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 27, 2020)

willem said:


> I've never slept in a Via section, but I've heard it is much more comfortable than an Amtrak roomette. Jim, would you like to weigh in?



VIA bedding is much better quality than Amtrak, the bedding alone would make it more comfortable. VIA Roomette Beds are much more comfortable than Amtrak Roomette Beds even though I prefer the setup in Amtrak better during daytime use. (I like the shelf / closet space, and it feels less like sitting in a box.).


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## jiml (Dec 27, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I prefer the setup in Amtrak better during daytime use. (I like the shelf / closet space, and it feels less like sitting in a box.).


"Sitting in a box" is a very apt description of a VIA roomette. Very similar to Amtrak's old slumbercoach rooms IMHO. Superliner roomettes are great by day and if sleeping alone. Travelling couples who don't like upper bunks should try for two across the hall from each other... gets you two lower bunks and a view out both sides for less than a bedroom.


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## jpakala (Dec 27, 2020)

Pre-Amtrak sleeping cars' rooms all had toilets and with the exception of some older style bedrooms, all were in separate enclosures with a door if the room slept more than one person. And nobody complained about a toilet in a roomette, duplex roomette, or the large duplex rooms whose toilets had a metal door concealing them and, when opened, the toilet folded down out of the otherwise completely enclosed space. What a change from up to 24 berth passengers using one men's room and one women's room toilet at each end of the car! Some berth cars that lacked the 3-person drawing room had 16 or 14 sections, i.e. upper & lower berths. We rode in a 14-section one from Seatlle to Missoula, MT in 1959 in The Milwaukee Road lower-fare Touralux sleeping car. Behind it were a 10 roomette/6 bed-room sleeper and the all glass-enclosed Skytop Lounge observation car which had I think 8 bedrooms.


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## pennyk (Dec 27, 2020)

MODERATOR NOTE: please stay on the topic of Amtrak dining cars and avoid political comments. Political and/or off topic comments may be removed. Thank you for your cooperation.


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## me_little_me (Dec 27, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> It might stink up the car for a little while, but an efficient HVAC system with suitable outside air intake should clear it out pretty quickly. The poor soul who left the window open would just have to deal with it in their own compartment a while longer.
> 
> Do the many sleepers with opening windows in other countries not travel though tunnels?
> 
> BTW, does the crew on Superliners switch the HVAC to full recirculate when they pass through Moffat currently?


The fumes from the electric engines in Europe are atrocious - much worse than diesel.


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## jis (Dec 28, 2020)

Speaking of fumes from engine (steam in this case) causing more than a minor inconvenience inside a tunnel, the Balvano Disaster comes to mind...









Balvano train disaster - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## niemi24s (Dec 28, 2020)

Recall reading a similar disaster was narrowly averted for a great Northern Railway passenger train about a century ago in the original Cascade tunnel at Stevens Pass, Washington.


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## fdaley (Dec 28, 2020)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Yes......they are still popular here! There's only 3 Sections in each Chateau or Manor car with 3 lower berths and 3 uppers for a total occupancy of 6 people. The space occupied by the fourth section was converted to a public shower. You can see that here on the right (where the ladders to the uppers are stored)........


In defense of sections: I actually prefer a lower berth to a roomette. The upper has no window, so it's not for me. I haven't checked the specs, but the section beds seem wider -- and certainly much wider than an Amtrak roomette bed. Super comfortable bed, a huge window, plus the bed doesn't need to be folded up to access the toilet, as the VIA roomettes require. Seats are plenty wide for day use, wide enough for two people to sit side by side if desired, plus on the Canadian we spend most of our waking hours in the domes, lounges or diner anyway.

We booked sections on the Canadian on our last four cross-country trips and loved it. My wife and I took lowers 1 & 2, which are across from each other, and our son took one of the uppers. He is still of an age where he thinks even a windowless bed is great fun. The other upper was sometimes occupied by someone else and sometimes vacant.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 28, 2020)

fdaley said:


> plus the bed doesn't need to be folded up to access the toilet, as the VIA roomettes require.



Roomettes don’t require it, you can still use the restroom down the hall just like when you are in a section.

I’ve always wanted to ride in a section just for the fun of it. For 4 days I want a private room though. Maybe one day if I get off in Jasper I’ll finish the journey in a section. 

I bought a section when I rode the Pullman Rail Journeys on the city of New Orleans... but one of the managers knew me so he upgraded me to a bedroom in the tail car. I’m not complaining  ha.


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## pennyk (Dec 28, 2020)

pennyk said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: please stay on the topic of Amtrak dining cars and avoid political comments. Political and/or off topic comments may be removed. Thank you for your cooperation.


Again, please stay on topic of Amtrak dining cars (as opposed to toilets in roomettes, fumes in tunnels, etc.). It should be noted that posts that quote removed posts (because they were political and/or off topic or because they quote a removed post) will also be removed.


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## fdaley (Dec 28, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Roomettes don’t require it, you can still use the restroom down the hall just like when you are in a section.
> 
> I’ve always wanted to ride in a section just for the fun of it. For 4 days I want a private room though. Maybe one day if I get off in Jasper I’ll finish the journey in a section.
> 
> I bought a section when I rode the Pullman Rail Journeys on the city of New Orleans... but one of the managers knew me so he upgraded me to a bedroom in the tail car. I’m not complaining  ha.



Well, for sure I would prefer a VIA drawing room to the sections, but it's a lot more expensive and often the Canadian only has one per departure. The other option for a party of three on VIA would be a bedroom suite, which is also expensive. My point was just that the sections are really very comfortable and, for many trips, private enough. 

As for the restroom, it's only a couple of steps from sections 1 & 2, whereas from the roomettes one has to walk the length of the car. Or go to the next car, but in the winter that requires braving the cold and snow of the vestibule.


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## fdaley (Dec 28, 2020)

pennyk said:


> Again, please stay on topic of Amtrak dining cars (as opposed to toilets in roomettes, fumes in tunnels, etc.). It should be noted that posts that quote removed posts (because they were political and/or off topic or because they quote a removed post) will also be removed.



And to bring it back to dining, hands down I would rather spend four nights in a VIA section eating real meals in a dining car than spend three nights in an Amtrak deluxe bedroom with the same limited menu of flex non-food for the entire trip.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 28, 2020)

Qapla said:


> How would it be if all new rolling stock was built in the viewliner style (single level) so it could be used on all trackage instead of usable in certain areas.


That would likely be a detriment to Western territory built or maintained for Superliner service. We'd probably need longer platforms, risking a visit from the ADA sledgehammer, or suffer a reduction in capacity. It might make more sense to consider dogeared dual levels that can pass through the NEC and using those nationwide.



Qapla said:


> What they have in other countries is irrelevant.


Contemporary human knowledge is built on the foundation of numerous cultures and civilizations sharing problems and selling solutions to each other. The idea that we should ignore information located outside some arbitrary boundary just because "they" came up with it is beyond my ability to comprehend. I personally think Amtrak could benefit from a larger pool of established solutions that are less provincial and more results oriented.


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## railiner (Dec 28, 2020)

fdaley said:


> In defense of sections: I actually prefer a lower berth to a roomette. The upper has no window, so it's not for me.


Some upper berth Pullman sections did have a pair of windows, although rather small. I don’t think VIA’s do....


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## fdaley (Dec 28, 2020)

railiner said:


> Some upper berth Pullman sections did have a pair of windows, although rather small. I don’t think VIA’s do....



I've never encountered a section with a window for the upper berth, though it seems like it ought to be possible. Of course, I've only encountered sections in Canada; they were pretty much extinct in the U.S. before I was riding the rails.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 28, 2020)

Here’s photos I have of a UP sleeper in Omaha with this type of window. 

The Budd Built VIA cars do not have these windows.


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## fdaley (Dec 28, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Here’s photos I have of a UP sleeper in Omaha with this type of window.
> 
> The Budd Built VIA cars do not have these windows.
> 
> ...


Oh, those are small. Well, at least you'd be able to tell if the sun is up or if it's still dark out.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 28, 2020)

If they're going to have opening windows in the dining car (to mitigate the aerosol virus) they might as well bring back the outdoor lounge cars. 

Kind of like those sidewalk restaurants.


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## IndyLions (Dec 28, 2020)

tgstubbs1 said:


> If they're going to have opening windows in the dining car (to mitigate the aerosol virus) they might as well bring back the outdoor lounge cars.
> 
> Kind of like those sidewalk restaurants.


I don’t think you’ll find “passenger controlled” windows that open in the US anytime soon - which is a shame. I’ve seen them featured in YouTube videos of new sleepers in Europe, for instance. They didn’t open much - but enough to let in some fresh air.

We have too many lawyers on this side of the Atlantic, that’s for darn sure.


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## Qapla (Dec 28, 2020)

Having double-paned windows with electric shades inside the windows would be COVID protocol friendly as well as keeping the shades from getting so dirty and torn.


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## Mailliw (Dec 29, 2020)

The other day I saw this on Facebook; interesting and on topic. I can see why the McDining car didn't work out, but maybe outsourcing catering (at least on some routes) is worth considering. I know there are union issues and it might take new legislation. Doesn't the Downeaster already do this? A food service company like Sodexo likely would work out better than an chain (though I'd love it if Pret a Manger handle the NEC).


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 29, 2020)

Mailliw said:


> Doesn't the Downeaster already do this?


The Downeaster staffs and supplies the cafe car. The state of Indiana had Iowa Pacific provide the dining car, staff, and service for the Hoosier State as for some time as well. 

But when you bring up Sodexo... Amtrak has catering. All they have to do is order higher quality meals and they serve higher quality meals. That’s literally all it takes.


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## me_little_me (Dec 29, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak has catering. All they have to do is order higher quality meals and they serve higher quality meals. That’s literally all it takes.


Plus having more of a variety. That could be different meals in each direction or different ones on different trains with them swapping once a month or so.


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## jiml (Dec 29, 2020)

Qapla said:


> What they have in other countries is irrelevant.





Devil's Advocate said:


> I personally think Amtrak could benefit from a larger pool of established solutions that are less provincial and more results oriented.


Further to DA's point, very few things today are built for one market. A good example is the post-2012 Ford Escape - one of the most ubiquitous vehicles in North America. It was designed and built in Europe long before it came here. If a company like Ford chose to go with a proven model rather than start from scratch, we have to consider that Amtrak is unlikely to generate a large enough order to justify a completely new product. It would be far better for them to customize an "off-the-shelf" model, as is already being proven with the Midwest order. Unfortunately those products did not originate in North America either. It works in reverse too. I recently watched a video of German DB's new regional train by Bombardier, and darned if the coaches don't look a lot like the ones in Florida, Albuquerque, L.A., San Diego and Toronto.


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## Trogdor (Dec 29, 2020)

jiml said:


> It works in reverse too. I recently watched a video of German DB's new regional train by Bombardier, and darned if the coaches don't look a lot like the ones in Florida, Albuquerque, L.A., San Diego and Toronto.



Are you sure it’s not just a modern version of this: Bombardier Double-deck Coach - Wikipedia


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## jiml (Dec 29, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> Are you sure it’s not just a modern version of this: Bombardier Double-deck Coach - Wikipedia


It is, but several interior "tells" will be familiar to regular riders of Bombardier commuter coaches and the front end of the cab car is very similar to GO's new ones. The obvious difference is the lack of the "lozenge" shape, but Bombardier had already gotten away from that with its latest effort for Montreal, which also features high-platform loading on the one side of the interior stairs up and down. That part is very similar to the German models.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 29, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> I don’t think you’ll find “passenger controlled” windows that open in the US anytime soon - which is a shame. I’ve seen them featured in YouTube videos of new sleepers in Europe, for instance. They didn’t open much - but enough to let in some fresh air.


Some of the windows on UK trains open enough to stick your limbs/head out, although I would not advise doing so.



IndyLions said:


> We have too many lawyers on this side of the Atlantic, that’s for darn sure.


Western Europe has more legal protections than the US and Amtrak still has windows passengers can open if they're willing to risk a reprimand. So long as windows do not easily open wide and low enough for a toddler to climb through it would probably meet most relevant safety tests. Boarding door windows are too high for a small child to escape on their own while the same cannot be said for a bedroom window. Lack of functioning compartment windows is just as likely due to FRA regulations, maintenance issues, cost considerations, HVAC design, or insurance.


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## IndyLions (Dec 30, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Some of the windows on UK trains open enough to stick your limbs/head out, although I would not advise doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> Western Europe has more legal protections than the US and Amtrak still has windows passengers can open if they're willing to risk a reprimand. So long as windows do not easily open wide and low enough for a toddler to climb through it would probably meet most relevant safety tests. Boarding door windows are too high for a small child to escape on their own while the same cannot be said for a bedroom window. Lack of functioning compartment windows is just as likely due to FRA regulations, maintenance issues, cost considerations, HVAC design, or insurance.



Here is the video showing the passenger controlled window in the sleeper room. It’s at the 5:45 mark. 



It looks like a perfectly safe window to me. To a US personal injury lawyer - it probably looks like a winning lottery ticket!

All joking aside - I’d love to see a window like that in US Sleepers. And don’t just scroll to the 5:45 mark - watch the whole video. I’m sure many of you already have. Paul’s travel videos are fantastic.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 30, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> Here is the video showing the passenger controlled window in the sleeper room. It’s at the 5:45 mark. It looks like a perfectly safe window to me. To a US personal injury lawyer - it probably looks like a winning lottery ticket! All joking aside - I’d love to see a window like that in US Sleepers. And don’t just scroll to the 5:45 mark - watch the whole video. I’m sure many of you already have. Paul’s travel videos are fantastic.


I honestly don't see a problem with that setup working in the US. What I think will keep such windows from being installed on Amtrak specifically is a concern over factors like cost, maintenance, and diesel fumes rather than lawsuits. Since Amtrak is still buying LD cars with designs from the 1980's I can only guess when the next new model might be deployed. I'd prefer movable windows too but I would not want to be stuck in a room with a window that I cannot close when it's hot, cold, wet, dusty, etc. Paul's videos are great for general information but his reviews are most helpful when viewed as best case scenarios. Paul seems to buy the cheapest tickets possible and then judge the experience as if his costs were typical. Sometimes it's possible to find a similar price but when I travel the same route at double or triple his cost I tend to have a slightly stronger reaction to mistakes, oversights, and defects that he often glosses over.


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## jiml (Dec 30, 2020)

There's also the risk of unwanted moisture and insects getting in and affecting seat and carpet fabric, should the windows be left open for any length of time, e.g. in the coach yard or terminus station.


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## tgstubbs1 (Dec 30, 2020)

jiml said:


> There's also the risk of unwanted moisture and insects getting in and affecting seat and carpet fabric, should the windows be left open for any length of time, e.g. in the coach yard or terminus station.


Yep, and mosquitoes are the most dangerous animal on the planet. At least, that's what I read.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 30, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Some of the windows on UK trains open enough to stick your limbs/head out, although I would not advise doing so.
> 
> 
> Western Europe has more legal protections than the US and Amtrak still has windows passengers can open if they're willing to risk a reprimand. So long as windows do not easily open wide and low enough for a toddler to climb through it would probably meet most relevant safety tests. Boarding door windows are too high for a small child to escape on their own while the same cannot be said for a bedroom window. Lack of functioning compartment windows is just as likely due to FRA regulations, maintenance issues, cost considerations, HVAC design, or insurance.



You are risking more than a reprimand by opening those windows on a regular basis. I learned this the hard way as a hard headed teenager on the CZ in the 80s. On one trip I tried several times to enjoy the canyons and the Colorado River from the open window in different coaches to avoid annoying the same attendant. Eventually the conductor was notified and I was told that the next time I would be put off the train. This reprimand was well deserved and the conductor was right since I had been reprimanded a few times by different attendants.


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## Ferroequinologist (Dec 31, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> If you ever checked the last-minute deals on Canadian fares, there were usually some berths available. But even if they don't sell out, some were occupied on my trip. Why spend to take them out as long as they're pulling in fares?



I wouldn't eliminate them until all equipment has been replaced with new.


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## jis (Dec 31, 2020)

jiml said:


> It is, but several interior "tells" will be familiar to regular riders of Bombardier commuter coaches and the front end of the cab car is very similar to GO's new ones. The obvious difference is the lack of the "lozenge" shape, but Bombardier had already gotten away from that with its latest effort for Montreal, which also features high-platform loading on the one side of the interior stairs up and down. That part is very similar to the German models.


Notwithstanding your fervent hopes, in actuality the flow of design at Bombardier has been from Europe to the Americas and not the other way round, as far as following any available documentation suggests.


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