# Reno turn



## AKA (Apr 14, 2008)

East bound Zephyr was on time. About 30 minutes before boarding we where sitting in the upper waiting room of the station. This is the old Southern Pacific station waiting room at street level. We are called to go down to the lower level. Once there we are seated for a preboarding check, tickets and I D checks the conductor does about 10 minutes explaining how and when to board. Seat assingments were given at this time, you were given a seat check slip to puy above your seat. Sleepers at one door and coach at the other door. He also takes questions. This was quite unexpected. However it sure did help everyone understand just what was going to happen. When # 6 pulled in things went like clock work. Among other things the no smoking rule was stressed. Something I never heard on the Zephyr announcements before. No gambling. No money on the table if you are in a card game. This was repeated at least two more times. An added point was that any money would automatically belong to the house. In this case the loung car attendent, CARL.

We were in sleeper 0631 roomette 2. Car # 32034 the Petrified Forest a superliner 1 with the referb blue and dark wood. This is one with a window in the upper restroom. Car attendent was Donald. He was very friendly and good. He went out of his way to make a lunch reservation for us, saving me a trip to the diner to put our name on the wait list. This guy could give the rest of Amtrak a lesson on how to make coffee. Coffee was always there along with juice. He was up early and stayed late. A little test I do with sleeper attendents is this. I ask for two more pillows right away. If I dont get any attitude and do get a " No problem " I tip then. This will set the pace for both of us for the rest of the trip. Donald got a very nice tip.

Reno east to helper was as expected. East of Green River we picked a little snow. Not hard but blowing. Ruby Canyon is always scenic and did not disapoint. East of Glennwood Springs we came to a stop quickly. To quickly, the train went into an emergency stop. One or two minutes later the conductor was on the PA to tell us we hit a boulder. They would have to inspect the engine and a great deal of the train and some track. I guess it was a small boulder. This only took about 15-20 minutes. After this short delay we were underway again. However the conductor informed us the U P would do a track inspection ahead of us and we would have to wait a while for them to get the proper gear in place.

Snow into Granby and Winter Park. Denver just about on time.

Food on board was good sevice in the diner was good. We had good load of pax all the way to Chicago.

Metropolitan lounge was a little crowded buy OK. Boarded the CL on time. It was training day for our coach attendent. He gave the same seats out three times .What a mess. Assigned seating again on the CL. He also gave away the crew seats. Got it all togeather and we left. From just outside the yards to Toledo Oh. I cant tell you much. I was asleep, out like lite.

Whole trip was pretty much on time . Except the Sparks P V hook up. Put us late into Reno. This was O K kept us out of the casino's. 

As always thanks for all the help from all of you on this forum


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## AlanB (Apr 14, 2008)

Thanks for the reports! 

By the way, I think that I had the same Donald last summer on the OTOL trip to San Fran. It sure sounds like the same guy, and he was great. Even took a turn in the dining car during breakfast, to help out the short staffed car. He cleared tables and brought coffee out, so as to help ease the load on the lone SA and the LSA in the diner on a sold out train.


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## Cascadia (Apr 15, 2008)

Neat! Your Donald is going to have a fan club, with people angling for inside information about his schedule and car, before they make their reservations!  Sounds great.

I sure would like to see those mountains and all of that snow from inside the comfort of the train. Sounds just lovely.

When they hit the brakes because of that boulder, were people thrown around inside the train at all? I imagine that could be rather dramatic if it caught you at an awkward moment.


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## jackal (Apr 15, 2008)

Cascadia said:


> When they hit the brakes because of that boulder, were people thrown around inside the train at all? I imagine that could be rather dramatic if it caught you at an awkward moment.


I've only been on a train that went into emergency once--the CL somewhere in the WV/MD mountains (surprising, since I worked a summer as a brakeman on a railroad, too!)--and it was a lot less dramatic than I would have thought. The only clue that the air was dumped was the faint whoosh characteristic of cars that are plugged (a sound I knew all too well from my days of switching freight cars) and the fact that we did stop so quickly (if it had been for a station or a signal, we would have slowed much more gradually). I'm not sure I even really felt any lateral G-forces, although visually, it appeared we did stop pretty darn quickly (within a hundred feet or so--although we were only going maybe 25-30mph).

Going into emergency at 79mph might be an experience, but at slower speeds, it's not a dramatic feeling at all.


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2008)

I was on the LSL Boston through train a few years back doing about 50, when the engineer hit the emergency brakes. Having heard the woosh described by the Jackal many times while riding the subway, I knew immediately what was going on. And that didn't include the fact that I could hear the engineer yelling into his radio that he had just thrown the train into emergency over my scanner. We were going by a stopped freight train and some idiot who was robbing the freight train with his buddies had stepped out from in between two freight cars without warning, directly into our path. The engineer was pretty certain that he had hit the guy, but a thorough inspection of the train showed that he hadn't, the guy must have just missed getting creamed for his stupidity.

In any event, I was sitting in my sleeper at the time so I wasn't really affected at all. Had I been walking it might have given me a bit of pause, but with the stance that I keep when walking on a train, I probably would have been ok. However if one was unfamiliar with trains, didn't have a nice wide stance, and weren't holding on with one hand, there is a chance that they would have taken a small tumble. Most likely they would have just stumbled, but if you were very unsteady on your feet, you might have gone down. That's why I always tell people, "one hand for you, one hand for the train."

Now on the other hand, had the train actually hit anything other than a person, I suspect that the final stages of the emergency stop could be far more forceful and dramatic. Especially if it's another train, a large truck, or a big boulder.


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## AKA (Apr 15, 2008)

Cascadia, The emergency stop was quick but smooth. A man on the train we met at lunch was an ex CSX employee. He explained that todays system slows the train by using the brakes starting in the rear. This means that the last car is the first to slow, then the next car , then the next car and so on. This takes the slack out from the rear of the train. So no lurching forward. Hope this helped.

All I know is what I heard, so be gentle. I know there are experts on this forum who will know the facts about emergency stops.


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## AlanB (Apr 15, 2008)

AKA said:


> Cascadia, The emergency stop was quick but smooth. A man on the train we met at lunch was an ex CSX employee. He explained that todays system slows the train by using the brakes starting in the rear. This means that the last car is the first to slow, then the next car , then the next car and so on. This takes the slack out from the rear of the train. So no lurching forward. Hope this helped.


Something definately got lost in the translation there, because that's not right. First, let's start with how things used to be.

Under the old system of braking, an engineer moves a level that either adds or reduces air pressure to a hose that runs from car to car. Adding pressure releases the brakes allowing the car wheels to roll freely, and thereore of course reducing pressure causes the brakes to be applied. How much you reduce that pressure, determines how hard the brakes clamp down. And it is far from an exact science, but a very experienced engineer can coax a train to a very gentle and smooth stop.

Now part of the problem, especially for freight trains that have 100 cars or more, is that it takes time for the change in air pressure to move through that very, very long hose. Depending on the length of the train, it's not impossible for the front cars to have been braking for a few minutes, before the last car finally starts to apply its brakes. This is what causes the rear cars to bump up against the front cars as the slack runs out.

With modern technology at work, something called FRED (Flashing Rear End Detector) was added to the mix. FRED based upon a radio signal from the engine, will drop the air pressure starting from the rear at the same time the engineer starts it from the front by moving the brake lever. I've not heard of any circumstances where the braking only starts from the end via FRED, but I suppose that it is possible. I'm not sure if it's advisable, but it surely is possible.

However, in the case of Amtrak, most trains are only 10 to 15 cars if that. So it doesn't take very long for the brakes to setup no matter what method you're using. Additionally, unless there was a box car on the rear of the train, FRED would not have put in an apperance. If the last car is a coach or sleeper, there is no need for FRED. So the brakes could not have been applied from the rear.

Finally and perhaps most importantly, if the engineer hits the emergency stop (something I'm sure happened when he saw a boulder on the tracks), all rules are off. Every possible braking method is used immediately. That means the engines dynamic brakes are applied (basically the traction motors run in reverse and generate electricity instead of using any), the engines air brakes are applied and the air pressure is dropped in the hose immediately, and if FRED is there, he also dumps the air from the back at the same time. The point being, this is an EMERGENCY, we need to stop as fast as possible! Even if that means risking a derailment in the process.

So in this case the former CSX employee is wrong, that train did not brake from the rear, unless there were box/freight cars at the back end. And even then, all brakes from all ends would have been activated in this emergency stop.


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## Cascadia (Apr 15, 2008)

Very interesting information on this thread! Alan, you are knowledgeable, but more importantly, you write very clearly so that a person with no background in what you are describing can understand what you mean. That's a very useful and unusual thing to be able to do!

Thanks!


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## jackal (Apr 15, 2008)

AlanB said:


> I've not heard of any circumstances where the braking only starts from the end via FRED, but I suppose that it is possible. I'm not sure if it's advisable, but it surely is possible.
> However, in the case of Amtrak, most trains are only 10 to 15 cars if that. So it doesn't take very long for the brakes to setup no matter what method you're using. Additionally, unless there was a box car on the rear of the train, FRED would not have put in an apperance. If the last car is a coach or sleeper, there is no need for FRED. So the brakes could not have been applied from the rear.


It is indeed possible, by flicking the EMERGENCY switch on the HOT, aka Wilma (the EOT's, aka FRED, companion up in the engine--get it, FRED and Wilma? Sorry...but they really do call it that). However, when dumping the air, engineers are trained to put both the main brake valve into emergency and flick the switch on the HOT (and in newer engines, with computerized systems and Wilma built into the computer, the EOT automatically discharges the air when the brake valve is moved to emergency). I've never heard of an instance where an engineer would dump air only from the rear (except when testing the FRED ater it's first connected--but the angle **** between the FRED and the last car is closed so the entire train doesn't go into emergency).

Also, I'm not sure that dynamic brakes are applied in an emergency stop. I seem to recall an emergency application actually cutting out the motors entirely. I'm also not sure what happens to the locomotive's independents in an emergency application--are they bailed off or are they left applied? Maybe one of the other railroad guys around here (OBS Gone Freight or Mr. Harris?) can clarify...


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## had8ley (Apr 15, 2008)

When a carman checks the EOT (end of train) device he asks the engineer to activate the emergency switch which sends a signal to the FRED (F.... Ridiculous Electronic Device or Chinese Conductor as we called them) to put the brakes in emergency. This action starts from the REAR of the train and unless the brake handle, on the engine, is moved to the "big hole" or emergency position nothing happens until the rear end brakes work their way to the head end.


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## GG-1 (Apr 15, 2008)

Cascadia said:


> Very interesting information on this thread! Alan, you are knowledgeable, but more importantly, you write very clearly so that a person with no background in what you are describing can understand what you mean. That's a very useful and unusual thing to be able to do!Thanks!


Aloha Cascadia

I must agree with you wholeheartedly. First met Alan on the board some 4 years ago and now assisting him as a Moderator. And then meeting him last summer in rail activities. Now I am sure we have Alan Blushing  But thats OK. Come to the October Gathering and Meet him in person.

Mahalo Alan


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## jackal (Apr 16, 2008)

had8ley said:


> When a carman checks the EOT (end of train) device he asks the engineer to activate the emergency switch which sends a signal to the FRED (F.... Ridiculous Electronic Device or Chinese Conductor as we called them) to put the brakes in emergency. This action starts from the REAR of the train and unless the brake handle, on the engine, is moved to the "big hole" or emergency position nothing happens until the rear end brakes work their way to the head end.


True, but the only time an engineer would ever flick the switch and _not_ put the brake handle in emergency is when testing the FRED. (And as I said, during the test, the angle **** between FRED and the rear car is usually closed...so the train itself never goes into emergency.) All other times, the engineer would place the train into emergency from both ends by moving the brake handle to emergency as well as flicking the switch on the HOT device.

And while normal brake applications do take awhile to set up and move their way back, emergency applications propogate much faster. Most cars' control valves are equipped with a Number 8 vent valve that, when the control valve senses a rapid decrease in pressure, opens to help vent the air out of the trainline. This both speeds up the emergency application and helps to ensure the pressure release isn't dampened on the cars further away from the engine (or FRED), preventing those cars from not going into emergency. (The control valve on each car applies the brakes in emergency when it senses a rapid release of pressure in the trainline--it's dependent on the rate of pressure reduction, not the amount of air released.)

If you're standing 50 feet away from the middle of a 100-car cut and someone plugs the brakes, you can hear the whoosh of each car's Number 8 vent valve opening and venting the trainline's pressure work its way through the entire cut in under five seconds. It's only a few more seconds before the brake cylinders start to actuate and maybe 7-8 more seconds before the brakes are fully applied.

(And come to think about it--maybe the locos do go into full dynamic braking when the train goes into emergency--the few times I accidentally plugged the motor when pulling away from a cut of cars--forgetting to close the angle **** on the engine--maybe I do recall the telltale sounds of the dynamics engaging...)


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## AKA (Apr 16, 2008)

See, I knew you guys would set us streight. You just needed a dumb head like to get you started. :unsure:  Anyway we know a lot more now than we did before. Thanks.


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## jackal (Apr 16, 2008)

AlanB said:


> Under the *old system* of braking, an engineer moves a level that either adds or reduces air pressure to a hose that runs from car to car. Adding pressure releases the brakes allowing the car wheels to roll freely, and thereore of course reducing pressure causes the brakes to be applied. How much you reduce that pressure, determines how hard the brakes clamp down. And it is far from an exact science, but a very experienced engineer can coax a train to a very gentle and smooth stop.


Just noticed (emphasis mine)--one correction to Alan's very good answer: the _really_ old system was that the engineer blows the whistle for one long blast, and the head-end brakeman starts climbing from the engine to the cars behind it, tightening the handbrakes as he went, and the rear-end brakeman starts climbing from the caboose to the cars in front of it, tightening handbrakes as he went. They kept climbing and tightening until the train was stopped.

Many a brakeman were lost during these maneuvers--brakemen were viewed as expendable!

What Alan describes as the old system is still how air brakes are applied today...much the same as they were when George Westinghouse invented the first fail-safe air brake in 1869. The company founded to manufacture these air brakes--the Westinghouse Air Brake Company (WABCO)--still manufactures brake components and other railcar parts for modern trains!

The latest innovation for modern freight railroadingis electric-pneumatic brakes, which use electric signals to control the air brakes on each car, significantly reducing (normal service) application time and allowing finer control. However, although several railroads have expressed interest, it'll be a long while before every railroad car is outfitted with them.

(Also, some other braking solutions are in use for high-speed passenger trains--one of the later models of either the ICE or the TGV uses magnetic induction to transfer energy from train motion to heat directly in the rails, but it can cause the rails to get so hot that problems can occur. Westinghouse's air brake design is still the most common on nearly all trains, though.)

Also, another reason why it may not be advisable to dump the air only from the rear: the stress on the stretched couplers might be enough to break a knuckle, although the application propogates throughout the entire train so quickly that I don't think it would make much of a difference. (The main reason the air is dumped from the FRED is less to help the application proceed quicker than it is to make sure the air is dumped from the entire train, even if there is a blockage along the way. It wouldn't be good if the angle **** three cars behind the engine were closed, and when the engineer goes to dump the air, the brakes only apply on the first three cars...)


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 16, 2008)

I take it that tractor-trailer airbrakes on the opisite? In that the air pressure is directly rather than inversely proportional to the amount of braking?


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