# Amtrak announces Siemens as preferred bidder for new equipment



## AM_ROAD (Apr 21, 2021)

IF this was suppose to be posted elsewhere please remove. 









Amtrak Announces Siemens as Preferred Bidder for New Equipment - Amtrak Media


After a competitive procurement launched in January of 2019, Amtrak has identified California-based Siemens Mobility Inc. (Siemens) as the preferred bidder to manufacture a new fleet of 83 Intercity Trainsets (ICTs), which will provide dual power in many instances and modern rail amenities to...




media.amtrak.com





"
_New Fleet will Improve Safety and Enhance Customer Experience_

WASHINGTON – After a competitive procurement launched in January of 2019, Amtrak has identified California-based Siemens Mobility Inc. (Siemens) as the preferred bidder to manufacture a new fleet of 83 Intercity Trainsets (ICTs), which will provide dual power in many instances and modern rail amenities to better serve all Amtrak customers. The ICTs will operate on the Northeast Corridor, _Palmetto_ and various state-supported routes and will replace the current Amfleet I, Metroliner cab and _Cascades_ service fleets. Accompanying the contract to manufacture the trainsets will be a long-term service agreement for technical support, spares and material supply.

“This new state-of-the-art equipment will not only provide Amtrak customers with an enjoyable and efficient travel experience, it will also enable us to improve safety, increase passenger capacity and reduce carbon emissions,” said Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn.

Amtrak has targeted summer 2021 for contract execution and notice to proceed and will spend the time between now and then continuing negotiations with Siemens for this generational procurement.

"


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

I thought the Cascades were getting the new Talgo 8s? 


And I wonder, what will be the replacement for the California Cars on the CC and PS


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## Tlcooper93 (Apr 21, 2021)

Great news! The Amfleets on the NEC are, in my opinion, very tired, and in need of replacement. They did a decent job on the overhaul and making them comfortable, but they are way to old, and very outdated. It's always kind of funny seeing them at South Station alongside Acelas.

Personally, I would love to see something similar to the OBB Railjets on the NEC. Boy would that transform the travel experience. I may not even bother with Acela Avelias.


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## zephyr17 (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> I thought the Cascades were getting the new Talgo 8s?
> 
> 
> And I wonder, what will be the replacement for the California Cars on the CC and PS


No, the new Cascades replacement car order was never going to be Talgo 8s.

Washington DOT announced last year that their intention was to piggyback on the Amtrak corridor order, mainly for economics of scale and standardization of maintenance. 

They appear to not want to do any further business with Talgo. The relationship between Talgo and WashDOT has definitely soured, perhaps something to do with Talgo's required maintenance contracts. In any case, WashDOT is pretty adamantly against further dealings with Talgo.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2021)

I think this is really just a small amount to cover the services coming on or off the NEC. As it talks about having dual power. So I would expect to see these on the Virginia Regionals, the Carolinian, and the Palmetto. I would also expect North Carolina will grab them for the Piedmont as well. 

So that will put them on the California Corridors, Cascades Corridor, Chicago Hub Corridors, Keystone, NEC Virginia, Springfield Regionals, the Carolinian, the Palmetto, and the Piedmont. 

I could see the lower milage Amfleet Is staying on the Downeaster, and the Empire Service. You could probably redeploy these elsewhere too.


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## Exvalley (Apr 21, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> I think this is really just a small amount to cover the services coming on or off the NEC. As it talks about having dual power. So I would expect to see these on the Virginia Regionals, the Carolinian, and the Palmetto. I would also expect North Carolina will grab them for the Piedmont as well.
> 
> So that will put them on the California Corridors, Cascades Corridor, Chicago Hub Corridors, Keystone, NEC Virginia, Springfield Regionals, the Carolinian, the Palmetto, and the Piedmont.
> 
> I could see the lower milage Amfleet Is staying on the Downeaster, and the Empire Service. You could probably redeploy these elsewhere too.



That sounds about right. Nonetheless, I am very excited to hear this news. It is a step in the right direction, for sure.


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## Ryan (Apr 21, 2021)

Yes, that's what it says: "The ICTs will operate on the Northeast Corridor, _Palmetto_ and various state-supported routes and will replace the current Amfleet I, Metroliner cab and _Cascades_ service fleets."

Excellent news. Let's get them built and on the road. Don't forget to get your pictures of the old stuff!


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

Good news. The term "trainsets" suggests an order for other single-level coaches and cafes is still to come, so Amfleets will be around for awhile on eastern long and mid-distance trains. It will be interesting to see what New York decides after this.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

I am a bit unfamilar with it, so what will these cars look like?


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> I am a bit unfamilar with it, so what will these cars look like?


Except for the color scheme and added pantograph:


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## Mailliw (Apr 21, 2021)

So obviously the length of the trainsets will vary depending on route, but a assuming an average of 7 cars per trainset that equals 581 cars!


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## Chris I (Apr 21, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> No, the new Cascades replacement car order was never going to be Talgo 8s.
> 
> Washington DOT announced last year that their intention was to piggyback on the Amtrak corridor order, mainly for economics of scale and standardization of maintenance.
> 
> They appear to not want to do any further business with Talgo. The relationship between Talgo and WashDOT has definitely soured, perhaps something to do with Talgo's required maintenance contracts. In any case, WashDOT is pretty adamantly against further dealings with Talgo.


I think the relationship definitely soured after WSDOT tried to deflect blame for their derailment onto Talgo. So I guess we keep our (2) Talgo VIII trainsets and a bunch of old Horizons for the next few years while we wait for non-tilting Venture cars. Oh, and they still have no estimate for the Point Defiance Bypass opening...


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> Except for the color scheme and added pantograph:
> 
> View attachment 21808


Ah okay, so the Venture Coaches. 

They will definitely look weird with the ACS64s pulling them


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## chrsjrcj (Apr 21, 2021)

I think they look fine


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## rickycourtney (Apr 21, 2021)

Chris I said:


> I think the relationship definitely soured after WSDOT tried to deflect blame for their derailment onto Talgo. So I guess we keep our (2) Talgo VIII trainsets and a bunch of old Horizons for the next few years while we wait for non-tilting Venture cars. Oh, and they still have no estimate for the Point Defiance Bypass opening...


Right, and the two Talgo 8 trainsets are owned by ODOT, not WSDOT.


Cal said:


> Ah okay, so the Venture Coaches.
> 
> They will definitely look weird with the ACS64s pulling them


It's not 100% sure going to the Venture coaches. It could be the Venture, it could be a new car based on the Venture, a new car based on a existing design (probably from Europe), or an all-new "clean sheet" design.

Also, I'm unsure from this announcement that these trainsets will be pulled by the ACS-64s -- the announcement says the trainsets "which will provide dual power in many instances" -- so some of the trainsets could be self-powered.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> Good news. The term "trainsets" suggests an order for other single-level coaches and cafes is still to come, so Amfleets will be around for awhile on eastern long and mid-distance trains. It will be interesting to see what New York decides after this.


New York has been paying for Amfleet I replacement cars (after resolving a huge flap over it several years back) in their payment to Amtrak for Empire Service. Why would they not use these train sets and let that money buy cars for only others? I would be really surprised if New York chooses to do something else. The dual power theya re talking of are really replacements for the P32ACDMs and they will be similar to the ones that MTA has been developing with Siemens in the background.

Remember the entire staff for handling Empire Service at NSDOT in Albany consists of 2.5 people mostly experts in managing contracts. They are not going to set up their own equipment procurement operation. MTA has nothing to do with Empire Service, nor can it, since it is a compact of counties.

It is quite likely that that there will be an option for rail cars attached to this to cover the entire Amfleet II fleet of course furnished differently. I don't see Amtrak going through a completely new procurement for those, specially when they can freeze in a lower price as part of a larger contract.


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

Unless they're planning to run catenary up the Hudson, does NYS need to pay for electric locomotives? That requirement would seem to inflate the cost of each trainset, so wondered if they'd wait for whatever is the separate coach purchase.


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## Mailliw (Apr 21, 2021)

I doubt it will be anything other than Venture Coaches. The product is already safety tested & FRA approved as well as already being in revenue service in the US. Plus Amtrak already ordered them for CA and the Midwest.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> Unless they're planning to run catenary up the Hudson, does NYS need to pay for electric locomotives? That requirement would seem to inflate the cost of each trainset, so wondered if they'd wait for whatever is the separate coach purchase.


What do you think those dual modes mentioned are for? They are third rail dual modes similar to the MNRR and LIRR ones that have been in the design works for a while now.


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> What do you think those dual modes mentioned are for? They are third rail dual modes similar to the MNRR and LIRR ones that have been in the design works for a while now.


From the bulk of the discussion since the announcement, I assumed the dual-mode reference was for services into Virginia - i.e diesel + catenary. I'm well aware of the Empire requirements, but nowhere did I see these being indicated for those routes.


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> Ah okay, so the Venture Coaches.
> 
> They will definitely look weird with the ACS64s pulling them


Why would ACS64's be needed?


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> From the bulk of the discussion since the announcement, I assumed the dual-mode reference was for services into Virginia - i.e diesel + catenary. I'm well aware of the Empire requirements, but nowhere did I see these being indicated for those routes.


What is your interpretation of the phrase "state supported routes" then? Why do you think New York would be specially not considered a "state supported route"? 

What railfans discussed is hardly a basis for interpreting a document from Amtrak  Maybe there will also be catenary dual modes, but there will certainly be third rail dual modes.


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> What is your interpretation of the phrase "state supported routes" then? Why do you think New York would be specially not considered a "state supported route"?
> 
> What railfans discussed is hardly a basis for interpreting a document from Amtrak  Maybe there will also be catenary dual modes, but there will certainly be third rail dual modes.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but wondering if there are enough in this order to cover all NER and state-supported routes like Pennsylvania and south of Washington, before even considering a separate type for New York.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but wondering if there are enough in this order to cover all NER and state-supported routes like Pennsylvania and south of Washington, before even considering a separate type for New York.


I don't understand why you give New York State this special dispensation. They are a standard Amtrak State contract. Amtrak owns and leases their entire equipment pool which is a subpool of the NEC pool. They are no different from any of the other NEC related state contracts. Yes they need dual modes, it is actually also possible that they'd simply use catenary dual mode, coming to think of it. So we'll just have to wait and see what the details are.


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## nullptr (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> From the bulk of the discussion since the announcement, I assumed the dual-mode reference was for services into Virginia - i.e diesel + catenary. I'm well aware of the Empire requirements, but nowhere did I see these being indicated for those routes.





jiml said:


> Why would ACS64's be needed?




It says dual power, not dual-mode, for what it's worth. I think this still could end up being a charger on one end and a ACS64 on the other.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

nullptr said:


> It says dual power, not dual-mode, for what it's worth. I think this still could end up being a charger on one end and a ACS64 on the other.


Indeed! There are so many ways to skin the cat that has been specified so far


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## frequentflyer (Apr 21, 2021)

What? Siemens won? But, but Stadler.

Dual mode trainsets will probably mean a diesel on one end and an Electric on the other. The Venture coaches should be cheaper with the states putting in a big order before Amtrak. I don't believe I am going to say this but "smart move" Amtrak letting the states order the cars first in mass to get a better deal on their cars.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

A very significant question is what will happen to PVs in the areas served only by train sets? Maybe Amtrak will allow pickup drop off of cars from LD trains at more locations to compensate? Assuming of course that it is difficult to attach stray cars to train sets. @Seaboard92 ? Any thoughts on the matter?


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> Dual mode trainsets will probably mean a diesel on one end and an Electric on the other.


However diesel can't get into NYP...


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> However diesel can't get into NYP...


They can. They just require a bit of special dispensation, and of course if the prime mover is simply turned off then even that is not necessary. NJT ALP45-DPs and LIRR DMs get into Penn Station all the time.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> Yes they need dual modes, it is actually also possible that they'd simply use catenary dual mode, coming to think of it.



Just to highlight NYS could run trains into NYC using the overhead catenary. The overhead wires and the third rail are extended to the same area. Which I would think would be a preferred solution. Sure would be safer if you could remove all the third rail inside the Amtrak section of NYC. Not going to happen on the Long Island Railroad section, but should be a long term goal.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Just to highlight NYS could run trains into NYC using the overhead catenary. The overhead wires and the third rail are extended to the same area. Which I would think would be a preferred solution. Sure would be safer if you could remove all the third rail inside the Amtrak section of NYC. Not going to happen on the Long Island Railroad section, but should be a long term goal.


I am wondering whether the catenary dual mode will be able to change power on the fly or if they will have to be stationary when the change happens like is required for ALP45-DPs. I think changing on the fly would be much preferred even if it takes extending the catenary a little further on the Empire Connection.

Changing on the fly would not be of much relevance for trains headed south of Washington DC though, sicne all of them will stop at Washington Union Station, or for the Pennsylvanian, which will stop[ at Harrisburg.


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## frequentflyer (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> However diesel can't get into NYP...



The diesel does not have to be running.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> I am wondering whether the catenary dual mode will be able to change power on the fly or if they will have to be stationary when the change happens like is required for ALP45-DPs. I think changing on the fly would be much preferred even if it takes extending the catenary a little further on the Empire Connection.
> 
> Changing on the fly would not be of much relevance for trains headed south of Washington DC though, sicne all of them will stop at Washington Union Station, or for the Pennsylvanian, which will stop[ at Harrisburg.



Cost vs Time

Let’s stay with the simplest solution and have the train stop while change modes. Unless it proven technology someplace else? The K.I.S.S. rule is in effect.


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## PVD (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> They can. They just require a bit of special dispensation, and of course if the prime mover is simply turned off then even that is not necessary. NJT ALP45-DPs and LIRR DMs get into Penn Station all the time.


As do the Amtrak operated P-32DM that go up the Empire cut...


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> They can. They just require a bit of special dispensation, and of course if the prime mover is simply turned off then even that is not necessary. NJT ALP45-DPs and LIRR DMs get into Penn Station all the time.


Are the diesels actually shut down, or are they just idling? Seems to me, whenever I see them at NYP, they are idling. Either that, or they have very noisy blowers....


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## Andrew (Apr 21, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


> What? Siemens won? But, but Stadler.
> 
> Dual mode trainsets will probably mean a diesel on one end and an Electric on the other. The Venture coaches should be cheaper with the states putting in a big order before Amtrak. I don't believe I am going to say this but "smart move" Amtrak letting the states order the cars first in mass to get a better deal on their cars.



Or a Sprinter with a dual-mode Charger?


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2021)

The old dual powered equipment (FL-9's and Turboliner's seemed to often have trouble with their third rail equipment and would 'sneak' in and out using their diesel or turbine engines....


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

railiner said:


> The old dual powered equipment (FL-9's and Turboliner's seemed to often have trouble with their third rail equipment and would 'sneak' in and out using their diesel or turbine engines....


Not much has changed. See the photo below at Croton-Harmon - not a P32 in sight.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> A very significant question is what will happen to PVs in the areas served only by train sets? Maybe Amtrak will allow pickup drop off of cars from LD trains at more locations to compensate? Assuming of course that it is difficult to attach stray cars to train sets. @Seaboard92 ? Any thoughts on the matter?



I don't think there would be an issue if they have a standard AAR Coupler on them. The Surfliners pull PVs on a regular basis with one direction the PV trailing the locomotive, and on the other way it trails the cab car. 

PVs are a dying breed however. 

It should be noted the only trains that are taking PVs that are likely to get replaced with new cars are these. 

~Palmetto
------Savannah
------Washington (Weekends Only)
------New York Sunnyside (Stay with the consist as it's last in first out and they don't want to mess with it)

~Carolinian
-----Charlotte
-----Washington (Weekends Only)
-----New York Sunnyside

~Lincoln Service
-------Chicago
-------St. Louis

~Missouri River Runner
-------St. Louis
-------Kansas City

~Hiawatha
------Chicago
------Milwaukee

~Wolverine
-------Chicago
-------Pontiac

~Blue Water
-------Chicago
-------Port Huron 

~Pere Marquette
------Chicago
------Grand Rapids

~Pacific Surfliner
------Los Angeles
------San Diego 

~Vermonter
-----Washington (Weekends Only)
-----New Haven
-----St. Albans

~New York State Trains
------New York Sunnyside
------Albany if the locomotive changes
------Niagara Falls
------Toronto
------Montreal
------Rutland

~Pennsylvania Trains
-------New York Sunnyside
-------Philadelphia with the engine change
-------Harrisburg (Select Keystones only)
-------Pittsburgh

~Northeast Regional 
------Roanoke (Stay with the consist)
------Norfolk (Stay with the consist)
------Newport News
------Richmond (Originating/Terminating Only)
------Washington (Weekends Only)
------New York Sunnyside (Originating/Terminating Only, even though usually they stick these on the LD trains)
------New Haven (With Locomotive Change)
------Boston South Station

Most of these I don't think will be a problem to be honest. PVs are required to have Rubbers to protect the Amtrak cars from passages crumpling when coupled to us. It also helps protect ours from Superliners. As long as the trains continue to meet normal mechanical spec we should be alright.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

So is the Surfliner getting these new cars? They are replacing Amfleets right, or also the California cars


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## PVD (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> Not much has changed. See the photo below at Croton-Harmon - not a P32 in sight.
> 
> View attachment 21849


can't be that recent, hasn't been a heritage bag in a while


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

PVD said:


> can't be that recent, hasn't been a heritage bag in a while


Arbitrary choice of illustration. Just confirming @railiner post that non-electric engines do run into Penn.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2021)

PVD said:


> can't be that recent, hasn't been a heritage bag in a while


I would say it was before 2006 as there is a Pacific or a Pine series in there as well. My Pacific was retired in 2006 along with the rest of the fleet.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> So is the Surfliner getting these new cars? They are replacing Amfleets right, or also the California cars


No. Replacing Amfleet I cars only. Surfliner will continue to use the California Cars/Superliner railcars.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> No. Replacing Amfleet I cars only. Surfliner will continue to use the California Cars/Superliner railcars.


That's what I thought. Personally, I love our California Cars, don't get rid of them!


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## MARC Rider (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> They can. They just require a bit of special dispensation, and of course if the prime mover is simply turned off then even that is not necessary. NJT ALP45-DPs and LIRR DMs get into Penn Station all the time.


Will the fact that these new diesels will be Tier-IV compliant make any difference?


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## Gemuser (Apr 22, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Cost vs Time
> 
> Let’s stay with the simplest solution and have the train stop while change modes. Unless it proven technology someplace else? The K.I.S.S. rule is in effect.


Voltage change "on the fly" proven technology?!?!
The French TGV system depends on changing voltage. Most [all?] Paris stations are electrified at 1,500V DC, the actual LGV [the specially built TGV tracks] are all 25,000 V 50 Hz AC systems and at some of the outer ends [espically on internationl services] they change to the local voltage.
Example: Paris - Lausanne TGV. 7 trains daily. 1500V DC Gare de Lyon to LGV start point. 25,000V 50Hz, AC to Vallorbe Switzerland, 15,000V 16.66Hz AC to Lausanne. If the rumored extention to Milan happens it will be the Swiss system to Brig, then 3,000V DC to Milan.
This is just one example, I think it's reasonable to call it proven technology.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Will the fact that these new diesels will be Tier-IV compliant make any difference?


ALP45-DPs are Tier IV compliant.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2021)

railiner said:


> Are the diesels actually shut down, or are they just idling? Seems to me, whenever I see them at NYP, they are idling. Either that, or they have very noisy blowers....


ALP45s are shut down in E-mode. P32ACDMs are sometimes idling.


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## Andrew (Apr 22, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Will the fact that these new diesels will be Tier-IV compliant make any difference?



I wonder if Amtrak's Northeast Regional trains will use diesel Charger locomotives or dual-mode.


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## Ryan (Apr 22, 2021)

There's no reason for regional trains that run completely under the wire to use anything than what they're using today.


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## Andrew (Apr 22, 2021)

Ryan said:


> There's no reason for regional trains that run completely under the wire to use anything than what they're using today.



Ok, but I thought that Amtrak wanted to operate trains that did not require a locomotive change.


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## Exvalley (Apr 22, 2021)

Redacted


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## Ryan (Apr 22, 2021)

Andrew said:


> Ok, but I thought that Amtrak wanted to operate trains that did not require a locomotive change.


Trains that run completely under the wire can use an ACS-64 without a locomotive change.


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## Andrew (Apr 22, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Trains that run completely under the wire can use an ACS-64 without a locomotive change.



Ok, but what for future Regional trains that operate off the NEC?


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## jis (Apr 22, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Cost vs Time
> 
> Let’s stay with the simplest solution and have the train stop while change modes. Unless it proven technology someplace else? The K.I.S.S. rule is in effect.


Maybe you are not aware that the P32ACDMs already change mode on the fly. So to now stop being able to do so using brand spanking new power would be a step backwards. 

As for the ALP45DPs, I am not sure whether there is any technical reason for them to be unable to change mode on the fly or it is just risk averse NJT who given a chance would happily stop running trains altogether to avoid risk


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## Ryan (Apr 22, 2021)

Andrew said:


> Ok, but what for future Regional trains that operate off the NEC?


That's what we've spent the last two pages discussing.


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## jis (Apr 22, 2021)

Andrew said:


> I wonder if Amtrak's Northeast Regional trains will use diesel Charger locomotives or dual-mode.


NE Regionals that run their entire route under the wire can continue to use ACS64s as power heads even with new train sets, if they are push pulls like the Railjets in Austria.

NE Regionals that go beyond electrified territory can use dual mode power heads thus not needing engine change at the end of the electrification point. Or they could change from electric to diesel power head at such points. Amtrak has expressed a desire to progress to the former, i.e. use dual mode power heads for Regional service that travel beyond the electrified territory.

Even with dual mode engines available, it is unlikely that LD trains will use them since it is kind of crazy to drag around an unused mode for a majority of ones journey while sacrificing power and adding weight, just to save 10 minutes at the mode change point.


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## Andrew (Apr 22, 2021)

jis said:


> NE Regionals that run their entire route under the wire can continue to use ACS64s as power heads even with new train sets, if they are push pulls like the Railjets in Austria.
> 
> NE Regionals that go beyond electrified territory can use dual mode power heads thus not needing engine change at the end of the electrification point. Or they could change from electric to diesel power head at such points. Amtrak has expressed a desire to progress to the former, i.e. use dual mode power heads for Regional service that travel beyond the electrified territory.
> 
> Even with dual mode engines available, it is unlikely that LD trains will use them since it is kind of crazy to drag around an unused mode for a majority of ones journey while sacrificing power and adding weight, just to save 10 minutes at the mode change point.



Suppose that Amtrak does, in fact, use dual-mode Chargers for Regionals that operate into Virginia and Pittsburgh, etc. Would it make sense for Amtrak to also use a Sprinter locomotive--for a total of two locomotives-- while in electric territory to add horsepower?


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## jis (Apr 22, 2021)

Andrew said:


> Suppose that Amtrak does, in fact, use dual-mode Chargers for Regionals that operate into Virginia and Pittsburgh, etc. Would it make sense for Amtrak to also use a Sprinter locomotive--for a total of two locomotives-- while in electric territory to add horsepower?


Depends. Ask that question again after they have published the technical specifications. We are way too far off into fantasy la la land at present to have a meaningful discussion of details.


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## Palmetto (Apr 22, 2021)

Andrew said:


> Suppose that Amtrak does, in fact, use dual-mode Chargers for Regionals that operate into Virginia and Pittsburgh, etc. Would it make sense for Amtrak to also use a Sprinter locomotive--for a total of two locomotives-- while in electric territory to add horsepower?



I don't see the need for adding horsepower. I'd like to know why you're asking, though.


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## SubwayNut (Apr 22, 2021)

jiml said:


> Not much has changed. See the photo below at Croton-Harmon - not a P32 in sight.
> 
> View attachment 21849



The photos mine its from my Croton-Harmon page. Taken October 15, 2004. There probably a decent number of photos of the Lake Shore with the P42, that day around the internet, it was taken on Metro-North's Farewell to the ACMU fan trip that I went on.


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## jiml (Apr 22, 2021)

SubwayNut said:


> The photos mine its from my Croton-Harmon page. Taken October 15, 2004. There probably a decent number of photos of the Lake Shore with the P42, that day around the internet, it was taken on Metro-North's Farewell to the ACMU fan trip that I went on.


I thought it might be you. Your pages are a valuable resource. I was just looking for a quick illustration of another post that indeed straight diesels go into NYP and that was a perfect example, despite its age. I think it happens more often than most will admit.


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## Andrew (Apr 22, 2021)

Palmetto said:


> I don't see the need for adding horsepower. I'd like to know why you're asking, though.



This way, Amtrak can still use the older Sprinter locomotives even if they order new locomotives.


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 23, 2021)

AM_ROAD said:


> IF this was suppose to be posted elsewhere please remove.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Will we ever get new Superliners?


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## Cal (Apr 23, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Will we ever get new Superliners?


The Superliners can't last forever, so the answer is probably yes. However I would think they would be similar to a European design


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## Mailliw (Apr 23, 2021)

Short-term the Superliners will be refurbished. As for long term my guess is that they'll be replaced with single-level cars with a high likelihood Amtrak just orders more Venture Coach trainsets from Siemens. I'd love it this meant a 2nd frequency on LD routes to comesate for reduced capacity, but the feals like a pipe dream.


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## Cal (Apr 23, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Short-term the Superliners will be refurbished. As for long term my guess is that they'll be replaced with single-level cars with a high likelihood Amtrak just orders more Venture Coach trainsets from Siemens. I'd love it this meant a 2nd frequency on LD routes to comesate for reduced capacity, but the feals like a pipe dream.


When the Superliners go I will miss them dearly. They are so impressive, I love the exterior look. 

I also don't like the idea of the western's to go single level, although I understand why they should.


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## Ryan (Apr 23, 2021)

I can't see Amtrak splitting their rolling stock again. After the debacle that was Viewliner production, I can't see that happening again, but a different single-level design fleet wide is my guess.


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## railiner (Apr 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> When the Superliners go I will miss them dearly. They are so impressive, I love the exterior look.
> 
> I also don't like the idea of the western's to go single level, although I understand why they should.


Agreed. The Superliner's have been around so long now, they are like an institution on transcontinental trains. It is almost hard to imagine departing Chicago for the west coast on a single level train, with not even a dome car...


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 23, 2021)

railiner said:


> Agreed. The Superliner's have been around so long now, they are like an institution on transcontinental trains. It is almost hard to imagine departing Chicago for the west coast on a single level train, with not even a dome car...


If Amtrak goes to All Single Level Equipment, as much as I like Dome and Sightseer Cars, true Lounge/Parlor type Cars would be something I'd like see return to all LD Trains!


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## Cal (Apr 23, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> If Amtrak goes to All Single Level Equipment, as much as I like Dome and Sightseer Cars, true Lounge/Parlor type Cars would be something I'd like see return to all LD Trains!


But what are the chances they'd actually return? Probably not too big.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> But what are the chances they'd actually return? Probably not too big.


Unfortunately not under the current Administration! They're the ones taking the Sightseer Lounges off the Eagle and CONO and not returning them when LD Trains go back to Daily Departures!


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## Mailliw (Apr 23, 2021)

Sadly we probably won't see Amtrak ordering anything like dome cars or Sighseer Lounges again. On the other hand we could easily see a parlor car type service in the form of a premium seated product like First Class on the Acela (reserved 2:1 seating, at seat service, etc).


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 24, 2021)

Cal said:


> The Superliners can't last forever, so the answer is probably yes. However I would think they would be similar to a European design



What do you mean by a European design?


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## North Woods Hiawatha (Apr 24, 2021)

If and when Amtrak replaces the Superliners, it'd be nice if they'd include replacement cars for the current Sightseer Lounge cars. Cars, even single-level (like on the Swiss Glacier Express or Bernina Express), with panoramic windows would probably be very popular with passengers riding the SW Chief, Coast Starlight, California Zephyr, and Empire Builder, as well as, other scenic routes.


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## jis (Apr 24, 2021)

Posting this here just as a refresher and context material for this discussion. Amtrak seems to be following the plan laid out in this document more or less as it is, with some minor changes.

Amtrak Equipment Asset Line Plan

It is now becoming quite clear that the 2020 Reauthorization will require continuation and enhancement even of the Long Distance network which apparently the Anderson-lings were not necessarily expecting. So that should solidify the nature of the LD fleet replacement,, the Superliner part of which is said to be 2025 onward. So expect some work starting to become visible by the end of 2023 on it.


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## Cal (Apr 24, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> What do you mean by a European design?


Something more like the double decker OBB nightjet cars


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Apr 24, 2021)

I wonder how feasible it would be to convert the Viewliner Diners into cafe/sightseeing cars. The shell is already suitable for the purpose, although changes to the food service area and seating would likely be needed. If the entire LD network becomes single level, that would allow for sightseeing cars to operate on most of the western trains without having to order new single-level versions. There are currently 26 Viewliner diners, whereas the EB, CZ, SWC, SL, and CS require 23 consists. Given the need for maintenance, 26 probably wouldn't be enough, but the number doing something like adding/removing the car at Denver on the CZ could get the number of in-service cars down from 23 to 21. Since food service cars would likely be included in the order anyway, it may be cheaper to just order enough the Viewliners than to order a small number of speciality sightseeing cars.


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## jis (Apr 24, 2021)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I wonder how feasible it would be to convert the Viewliner Diners into cafe/sightseeing cars. The shell is already suitable for the purpose, although changes to the food service area and seating would likely be needed. If the entire LD network becomes single level, that would allow for sightseeing cars to operate on most of the western trains without having to order new single-level versions. There are currently 26 Viewliner diners, whereas the EB, CZ, SWC, SL, and CS require 23 consists. Given the need for maintenance, 26 probably wouldn't be enough, but the number doing something like adding/removing the car at Denver on the CZ could get the number of in-service cars down from 23 to 21. Since food service cars would likely be included in the order anyway, it may be cheaper to just order enough the Viewliners than to order a small number of speciality sightseeing cars.


What relevance does the current 26 VL Diners have to what happens to the Western fleet ten years from now? Are you expecting the Eastern trains not to need those Viewliner Diners in ten years? Or are you expecting the entire Eastern Viewliner Diner fleet to be replaced one more time by then?

It is actually quite unlikely that any more Viewliners will be ordered or built. When the Western fleet is being replaced in five to ten years, why wouldn't an appropriate number of cars that have big wrap around windows with food service be built as part of the replacement order, irrespective of how many levels those cars have?


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## rickycourtney (Apr 24, 2021)

Okay, so instead of wildly speculating about a future western LD fleet... let’s get back on topic... 
Wild speculation about the Amfleet I replacements!

My conversation starters...
Will Amtrak go with semipermanently coupled trainsets with open gangways (like Caltrans and Brightline) or individual cars and married pairs (like the Midwest)?
Will there be fully trainlined automatic doors? Trap doors? A 50/50 split of doors for high and low platforms?
Onboard wheelchair lifts for low platforms?


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## jiml (Apr 24, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> Okay, so instead of wildly speculating about a future western LD fleet... let’s get back on topic...
> Wild speculation about the Amfleet I replacements!
> 
> My conversation starters...
> ...


Is "All of the above" an option?


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## jis (Apr 24, 2021)

jiml said:


> Is "All of the above" an option?


Specially in a semi-permanently coupled fixed consist you have considerable additional leeway tp consider a collection of alternatives.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Apr 24, 2021)

jis said:


> What relevance does the current 26 VL Diners have to what happens to the Western fleet ten years from now? Are you expecting the Eastern trains not to need those Viewliner Diners in ten years? Or are you expecting the entire Eastern Viewliner Diner fleet to be replaced one more time by then?
> 
> It is actually quite unlikely that any more Viewliners will be ordered or built. When the Western fleet is being replaced in five to ten years, why wouldn't an appropriate number of cars that have big wrap around windows with food service be built as part of the replacement order, irrespective of how many levels those cars have?


My thought process was that a standardized diner could be purchased for both the eastern and western trains as part of the Superliner replacement, allowing the Viewliner diners to be converted to lounges for the western trains. I don't necessarily think that's the best option; the possibility just occured to me. Ideally a new car would be bought with wrap around windows as you said, but it seems like that's not a given.


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## railiner (Apr 24, 2021)

I never was a fan of semi-permanently coupled cars or trainsets. From the first articulated streamliners, to the present day, those types of trains take away full flexibility to change consists to fulfill what is required. The ability to adapt to changing requirements is one of the advantages a "train" has over other modes.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 24, 2021)

railiner said:


> I never was a fan of semi-permanently coupled cars or trainsets. From the first articulated streamliners, to the present day, those types of trains take away full flexibility to change consists to fulfill what is required. The ability to adapt to changing requirements is one of the advantages a "train" has over other modes.


Yeah, but how often does Amtrak change their consists around? To be clear, when Siemens says “semi-permanently” coupled — two people can couple/uncouple cars in about 35 minutes. Not something you want to do every day... but unlike the Alstom Avela Liberty or the Talgo trainsets, it doesn’t require a crane and a bunch of people.

The gain is a much better experience for passengers.


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## railiner (Apr 24, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> Yeah, but how often does Amtrak change their consists around? To be clear, when Siemens says “semi-permanently” coupled — two people can couple/uncouple cars in about 35 minutes. Not something you want to do every day... but unlike the Alstom Avela Liberty or the Talgo trainsets, it doesn’t require a crane and a bunch of people.
> 
> The gain is a much better experience for passengers.


Maybe if the process was improved, it might occur more often?


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## joelkfla (Apr 25, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> Yeah, but how often does Amtrak change their consists around? To be clear, when Siemens says “semi-permanently” coupled — two people can couple/uncouple cars in about 35 minutes. Not something you want to do every day... but unlike the Alstom Avela Liberty or the Talgo trainsets, it doesn’t require a crane and a bunch of people.
> 
> The gain is a much better experience for passengers.


How about the Texas Eagle & LSL?


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## Cal (Apr 25, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> How about the Texas Eagle & LSL?


That's not every day, even pre-COVID. And I believe he said what you wouldn't _want _to do, not _need _ to do.


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## Intercity (Apr 25, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> Will there be fully trainlined automatic doors? Trap doors? A 50/50 split of doors for high and low platforms?
> Onboard wheelchair lifts for low platforms?



I’d imagine we’ll see the same low level plug doors with traps that are on the new Midwest venture cars. Since the NEC doesn’t really need the automatic gap filler it makes sense to stick with traps on every door for added flexibility. Unless the low level plug doors won’t fit in a high platform...


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## Gemuser (Apr 25, 2021)

Cal said:


> That's not every day, even pre-COVID. And I believe he said what you wouldn't _want _to do, not _need _ to do.


“semi-permanently” does not necesserially mean its a whole consist for a particual train. They can be set up however vthe customer wants them, “semi-permanently” coupled in sets of two, three, four, six or eight cars [or whatever] in a set. The customer can then build a given consist as required & if Amtrak has half a brain they'll put Schafenburg couplers on the outer ends of the “semi-permanently” coupled sets which will make the LSL & TE switching very simple PROVIDED they do their planning & specify the sets correctly.


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## jiml (Apr 25, 2021)

Gemuser said:


> if Amtrak has half a brain they'll put Schafenburg couplers on the outer ends of the “semi-permanently” coupled sets which will make the LSL & TE switching very simple PROVIDED they do their planning & specify the sets correctly.


Why would they use Schafenburg couplers on the outer ends of a married consist, as opposed to standard AAR couplers? The latter would allow the new equipment to be intermingled with existing stock, e.g. Viewliners. North American railroads that have had (or still use) European rolling stock have traditionally had conventional coupling on the ends. Examples include VIA Renaissance equipment and even ONR's old TEE sets.


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## adamj023 (Apr 25, 2021)

Siemens is just a “preferred” bidder so other companies can still bid on the contract. The Alstom trains will still be the best trains on the NEC for their premium product once it is released. Siemens venture based trains could be a possibility considering they have already invested and tested these out. No reason to speculate as we should know likely later this year when bidding is finalized.


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## Ryan (Apr 25, 2021)

No. The competitive portion of the bidding started in 2019 and is over (as of this press release) with Siemens being selected.

From the press release:


> After a competitive procurement launched in January of 2019, Amtrak has identified California-based Siemens Mobility Inc. (Siemens) as the preferred bidder to manufacture a new fleet of 83 Intercity Trainsets (ICTs),


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## adamj023 (Apr 25, 2021)

It says “preferred” bidder. A bidder is not someone who has won a bid. I can be a preferred bidder at an auction but it does not guarantee the winning bid will be myself. Same concept here. They met Amtrak‘s requirements and they are a company they prefer to deal with but other companies can indeed present their products and bids for the contract. Industry is extremely competitive. They were not guaranteed anything as they are a preferred bidder. They are still a bidder that they prefer to deal with but they are a bidder and there has been no accepted bid. Once Amtrak finalizes the bidding then we will know who the real winner is.

Siemens is being used by Amtrak now and Brightline and trains seem to perform well for higher speed routes and have been well tested. I have not been on one myself. I can see why Siemens is the preferred bidder.


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## joelkfla (Apr 25, 2021)

jiml said:


> Why would they use Schafenburg couplers on the outer ends of a married consist, as opposed to standard AAR couplers? The latter would allow the new equipment to be intermingled with existing stock, e.g. Viewliners. North American railroads that have had (or still use) European rolling stock have traditionally had conventional coupling on the ends. Examples include VIA Renaissance equipment and even ONR's old TEE sets.


I have questions:

Can passengers move freely between a semi-permanently coupled set and whatever is coupled to its end?
Do the Siemens cars need to be joined and detached in a shop, or can it be done online with passengers aboard?


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## MARC Rider (Apr 25, 2021)

Gemuser said:


> “semi-permanently” does not necesserially mean its a whole consist for a particual train. They can be set up however vthe customer wants them, “semi-permanently” coupled in sets of two, three, four, six or eight cars [or whatever] in a set. The customer can then build a given consist as required & if Amtrak has half a brain they'll put Schafenburg couplers on the outer ends of the “semi-permanently” coupled sets which will make the LSL & TE switching very simple PROVIDED they do their planning & specify the sets correctly.


These cars are being designed for corridor service. Why should there be any need to use them on long-distance trains?


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## joelkfla (Apr 25, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> These cars are being designed for corridor service. Why should there be any need to use them on long-distance trains?


Thanks for the clarification.


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## Andrew (Apr 25, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Siemens is just a “preferred” bidder so other companies can still bid on the contract. The Alstom trains will still be the best trains on the NEC for their premium product once it is released. Siemens venture based trains could be a possibility considering they have already invested and tested these out. No reason to speculate as we should know likely later this year when bidding is finalized.



If Amtrak chooses Alstom instead of Siemens, than Alstom would have to come up with a bi-mode train that can meet Amtrak's technical specifications.


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## Ryan (Apr 25, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> other companies can indeed present their products and bids for the contract


Not anymore. This has already happened over the course of the last two years. That phase of the award process is over and Amtrak has made their selection.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I have questions:
> 
> Can passengers move freely between a semi-permanently coupled set and whatever is coupled to its end?
> Do the Siemens cars need to be joined and detached in a shop, or can it be done online with passengers aboard?


The sem-permanently coupled cars may have upto full width gangways, though currently none do. The regularly couple cars may have gangways wide enough for regular wheelchairs. However if there is a strong need to mix in legacy cars with the legacy narrow gangways they might have to figure out a way to mate wider gangways with legacy narrow ones. I don;t know what they plan to do.

The semi permanently couple cars can be joined and detached anywhere, but it take significantly more time as there are many more attachments than just the drawbar, than an AAR or Sharfenberg coupled cars.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2021)

Andrew said:


> If Amtrak chooses Alstom instead of Siemens, than Alstom would have to come up with a bi-mode train that can meet Amtrak's technical specifications.


Amtrak has already chosen Siemens. Unless some really earthshaking event causes the current contract to be nullified there is no possibility of Amtrak now choosing Alstom for this contract.


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## PVD (Apr 25, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> These cars are being designed for corridor service. Why should there be any need to use them on long-distance trains?


Not so much the overnight trains, but some of the long day trains are running mixed AM1 and AM2 or adding or dropping cars for added short hauls, like the AD at Albany. If all the AM1 are gone, either all those trains switch over, the practice ends, or a solution is provided. But in regular (non covid) ops, the mix happens.


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## adamj023 (Apr 25, 2021)

I was referring to the Alstom being premium because of the Aveila Liberty order which is their high speed and most premium train on the route, not that Alstom could get the contract for the NEC Regional trains. As of now it does seem the Siemens Venture or a modified version is their preferred choice.

It doesn’t have to be earthshaking for them to not use Siemens. Another supplier could be just as good or better and come in with a lower price who wants the contract. Siemens does seem the best so far and has been tested on the NEC as a single test train along with Sprinters and Amfleet. Siemens has the most progress so far. Sumitomo and Nippon Sharyo failed on tests for California and they went with Siemens Venture. As of now I agree that Siemens is the best choice but if someone says I can do same project with same or better quality and can come to cheaper price, I could still see another supplier in the running but time is running out as it would be nice to see the supplier finalized this summer and for production to begin. The Siemens venture if chosen would be better than the Amfleet I they will replace.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2021)

PVD said:


> Not so much the overnight trains, but some of the long day trains are running mixed AM1 and AM2 or adding or dropping cars for added short hauls, like the AD at Albany. If all the AM1 are gone, either all those trains switch over, the practice ends, or a solution is provided. But in regular (non covid) ops, the mix happens.


It has been explicitly stated that all the Amtrak equipped state supported single level trains will transition over to use these train sets. It has also been stated that the Palmetto will use these train sets. There are apparently no plans to run mixed consists or add/drop cars en route. It is possible that joining/parting train sets, like is done elsewhere in the world is within the realm of possibilities, though nothing has been stated about that explicitly yet.

The good news is that about 22 Amfleet IIs will be released for use on real LD trains as a result of this. Until the Amfleet IIs get replaced by something else of course, and those will clearly be individual cars that can be intermingled with legacy equipment.


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## adamj023 (Apr 25, 2021)

The Siemens Venture if chosen makes the NEC Regional a much better way to travel for the masses. The Aveila Liberty seems fine for the time dependent travelers where time savings is needed and who want premium service levels. The Amfleet I’s need to be removed as soon as possible. I agree that Amfleet II are more usable and will be better for long haul fleets till replacements emerge.


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## Amtrak_Carolinian_2020 (Apr 25, 2021)

AM_ROAD said:


> IF this was suppose to be posted elsewhere please remove.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess these new cars will be used for non-overnight trains on the east coast, since the Pennsylvanian and Palmetto trains primarily use Amfleet 2s, while the overnight trains will keep their Amfleet 2s until Amtrak can replace those?


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## rickycourtney (Apr 25, 2021)

Intercity said:


> I’d imagine we’ll see the same low level plug doors with traps that are on the new Midwest venture cars. Since the NEC doesn’t really need the automatic gap filler it makes sense to stick with traps on every door for added flexibility. Unless the low level plug doors won’t fit in a high platform...


Trap doors complicate operations at low-platform stations. Conductors need to walk the train to open the traps.

My vision would be that one end of the car would have a low-platform door with automatic doors/steps and on the other end would have a high-platform door.

With that layout... you'd have high and low-platform doors right next to each other on opposite cars, giving both options.

Maybe some of those high-platform doors could have wheelchair lifts to board passengers at low-platform stations without using the slow crank-operated lifts.



adamj023 said:


> It doesn’t have to be earthshaking for them to not use Siemens. Another supplier could be just as good or better and come in with a lower price who wants the contract. Siemens does seem the best so far and has been tested on the NEC as a single test train along with Sprinters and Amfleet. Siemens has the most progress so far. Sumitomo and Nippon Sharyo failed on tests for California and they went with Siemens Venture. As of now I agree that Siemens is the best choice but if someone says I can do same project with same or better quality and can come to cheaper price, I could still see another supplier in the running but time is running out as it would be nice to see the supplier finalized this summer and for production to begin. The Siemens venture if chosen would be better than the Amfleet I they will replace.


I responded to you in the other thread... but you misunderstand how this works. That whole process of companies offering to do the "same project with same or better quality and can come to cheaper price" has already happened and the winner was Siemens.

What will happen between now and this Summer is that Amtrak and Siemens will be hammering out things like design features, various requirements, and negotiate terms and conditions that are fair and assign risks to the party in the best position to control them.

This was one of the big learnings from the original Acela order... unless both parties have a very clearly defined vision of how the final train will look and operate... you end up with a bunch of change orders that add time and cost to the project. The Amtrak inspector general has a good nerdy read comparing the problematic Acela order with the much smoother Surfliner car order.

Now -- why call them the "preferred bidder" and not the "winner?" The ink isn't dry on the contract.

Say that Siemens refuses to add a "must-have" feature for Amtrak, or Amtrak demands a contract with terms and conditions that Siemens feels are unfair. Talks could break down and could be called off. That's why they're the "preferred bidder."

That said, Siemens and Amtrak have reached several contracts in the last few years. The chances of the contract talks breaking down seem very, very low.



joelkfla said:


> I have questions:
> 
> Can passengers move freely between a semi-permanently coupled set and whatever is coupled to its end?
> Do the Siemens cars need to be joined and detached in a shop, or can it be done online with passengers aboard?


My understanding is the Midwest sets have traditional gangway/diaphragm at the ends so that the semi-permanently coupled married pairs can be coupled to other Venture/Amfleet/Horizon cars. California has gone with a completely closed system... a cab car on one end of the set and a blank end on the other (with a provision to add a gangway in the future).

I get the impression that the Siemens cars can be joined and detached anywhere if necessary, but it would be easier in a shop. It's not something you'd want to do online with passengers aboard -- unless it was an emergency and a car needed to be set out.


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## Amtrak_Carolinian_2020 (Apr 25, 2021)

nullptr said:


> It says dual power, not dual-mode, for what it's worth. I think this still could end up being a charger on one end and a ACS64 on the other.


How bottlenecked is First Street Tunnel and the lower level of DC’s Union Station? If they are bottlenecked, I’m curious as to how Amtrak/VRE/MARC will manage increased Virginia Amtrak service, the SEHSR, increased VRE service, and potential MARC service into Virginia.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2021)

Amtrak_Carolinian_2020 said:


> How bottlenecked is First Street Tunnel and the lower level of DC’s Union Station? If they are bottlenecked, I’m curious as to how Amtrak/VRE/MARC will manage increased Virginia Amtrak service, the SEHSR, increased VRE service, and potential MARC service into Virginia.



A pair of tracks should be able to easily handle 12tph each way easily. (the two tracks between Newark NJ and New York Penn Station handle upto 24tph each way. That would be 144 trains each way in a 12 hour operating day. That should be more than plenty to serve all the needs of every potential user of the Capitol Hill tunnels.

Assuming that the second Long Bridge is built as planned with two through tracks for passenger trains stretching all the way to Fredericksburg, all that remains to be carried beyond Fredericksburg on joint trackage with CSX would the Virgnia Regionals to RVR plus a few LDs, which should not be any problem.

As for Union Station the plan is to have 6 platform tracks at the lower level, which should be more than adequate to handle the planned traffic too.


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## Andrew (Apr 25, 2021)

jis said:


> A pair of tracks should be able to easily handle 12tph each way easily. (the two tracks between Newark NJ and New York Penn Station handle upto 24tph each way. That would be 144 trains each way in a 12 hour operating day. That should be more than plenty to serve all the needs of every potential user of the Capitol Hill tunnels.
> 
> Assuming that the second Long Bridge is built as planned with two through tracks for passenger trains stretching all the way to Fredericksburg, all that remains to be carried beyond Fredericksburg on joint trackage with CSX would the Virgnia Regionals to RVR plus a few LDs, which should not be any problem.
> 
> As for Union Station the plan is to have 6 platform tracks at the lower level, which should be more than adequate to handle the planned traffic too.



Also, the new Venture coaches will have wider doors thus reducing station dwell time in busy terminals, such as WAS and NYC.


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## joelkfla (Apr 25, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> Trap doors *prevent *complicate operation at low-platform stations. Conductors need to walk the train to open the traps.


Was that an unintended word?


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## adamj023 (Apr 25, 2021)

The Amtrak ALC-42 Siemens Chargers are diesel-electric. No need for a Charger and a Sprinter on a train set under regular conditions. The Amtrak ALC-42 which is Amtrak’s Charger model are for longer haul routes which go through Electric and Diesel territory. NEC trains are electrified and use the existing Sprinter. The Silver Meteor passes through NYP and also uses Diesel tracks on CSX. Silver Meteor will be one of the the ALC-42 routes. Trains that start in the Northeast corridor and go longer distance will use the ALC-42. Also saves time and personnel needed to switch trains.


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## Amtrak_Carolinian_2020 (Apr 25, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> The Amtrak ALC-42 Siemens Chargers are diesel-electric. No need for a Charger and a Sprinter on a train set under regular conditions. The Amtrak ALC-42 which is Amtrak’s Charger model are for longer haul routes which go through Electric and Diesel territory. NEC trains are electrified and use the existing Sprinter. The Silver Meteor passes through NYP and also uses Diesel tracks on CSX. Silver Meteor will be one of the the ALC-42 routes. Trains that start in the Northeast corridor and go longer distance will use the ALC-42. Also saves time and personnel needed to switch trains.


So, are you saying that the Silver Service/Palmetto, Crescent, Cardinal, Carolinian, and Northeast Regional trains that originate/terminate south of DC will use the ALC-42 Chargers for their entire journey, even on the NEC?


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## districtRich (Apr 25, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> The Amtrak ALC-42 Siemens Chargers are diesel-electric. No need for a Charger and a Sprinter on a train set under regular conditions. The Amtrak ALC-42 which is Amtrak’s Charger model are for longer haul routes which go through Electric and Diesel territory. NEC trains are electrified and use the existing Sprinter. The Silver Meteor passes through NYP and also uses Diesel tracks on CSX. Silver Meteor will be one of the the ALC-42 routes. Trains that start in the Northeast corridor and go longer distance will use the ALC-42. Also saves time and personnel needed to switch trains.



Diesel-electric doesn't mean dual power. It's a diesel engine that creates electricity which is used to drive the traction motor. It doesn't mean it can get power from overhead catenary. An engine change is still currently required for the trains that leave the catenary.


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## Andrew (Apr 25, 2021)

districtRich said:


> Diesel-electric doesn't mean dual power. It's a diesel engine that creates electricity which is used to drive the traction motor. It doesn't mean it can get power from overhead catenary. An engine change is still currently required for the trains that leave the catenary.



But for Regional trains, Amtrak want to eliminate the engine change (just like how NJ Transit trains can operate without an engine change on certain trains that operate from Manhattan to Bay Head).


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## rickycourtney (Apr 25, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Was that an unintended word?


Argh. Yes. Meant to say... Trap doors complicate operations at low-platform stations.


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## railiner (Apr 25, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> The Siemens venture if chosen would be better than the Amfleet I they will replace.


Time.....will be the judge of that...
I’d put my money on The Budd Company produced products for longevity


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## adamj023 (Apr 25, 2021)

Hmm... Is Amtrak ALC-42 being used on the NEC long haul trains or the Diesel only long haul trains?

Maybe I got confused with the diesel electric wording because it may just be the traction motors. If so, then the ALC-42 will go to Diesel only routes and the Sprinters and P42 will remain in use. They could couple them together as other P42 will be phased out and there will be a lot more P42 available till a dual mode replacement is available.

Empire builder has the dual mode locomotives now. Amtrak still has a long way to go to replace their oldest equipment.


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## PVD (Apr 25, 2021)

I've never heard of a dual mode on the Empire Builder (Chicago to/from West Coast) . Is it possible you are referring to Empire Service in NY which uses P32-DM Genesis dual modes, along with a few other trains departing NYP and heading up the West Side of Manhattan?


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## jiml (Apr 25, 2021)

railiner said:


> Time.....will be the judge of that...
> I’d put my money on The Budd Company produced products for longevity


You'd almost think they had a long successful history, with 70 year-old railcars still being used in passenger service.


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## adamj023 (Apr 25, 2021)

Yeah likely Empire Service. Knew it was one of the Empire trains. Mixed up the two.


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## districtRich (Apr 25, 2021)

Andrew said:


> But for Regional trains, Amtrak want to eliminate the engine change (just like how NJ Transit trains can operate without an engine change on certain trains that operate from Manhattan to Bay Head).



Correct, that's the goal but it's not what the Chargers are used for. They are diesel engines that power electric traction motors. I think he assumed diesel-electric meant it could use a diesel engine or draw power from the catenary so wouldn't need an engine change. Diesel-electric gets energy from the diesel only and has nothing to do with the NEC catenary. I think the engines that run off diesel and/or catenary are generally referred to as dual power or dual mode


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## PVD (Apr 25, 2021)

I saw it right away because (pre-covid) I ride those trains pretty frequently for my hockey meeting across NY, or a trip West through Chicago using the Lake Shore.


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## PVD (Apr 25, 2021)

We see many dual modes here, LIRR has the EMD DM30 3rd rail and Diesel Electric, Amtrak and MNRR have the P32-DM limited speed 3rd rail and DE, and NJT has Cat and DE ALP-45DP


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## railiner (Apr 25, 2021)

PVD said:


> I've never heard of a dual mode on the Empire Builder (Chicago to/from West Coast) . Is it possible you are referring to Empire Service in NY which uses P32-DM Genesis dual modes, along with a few other trains departing NYP and heading up the West Side of Manhattan?


Maybe the BNSF is going to re-electrify from Skykomish to Wenatchee....









Great Northern W-1


The Great Northern W-1 was the largest electric locomotive to run in North America, their wheel arrangement being (at first glance) a 4-8-8-4 or B-D+D-B; the only other locomotive to share this arrangement were the Union Pacific's 4000 Class "Big Boys". Only two were built by the General...




locomotive.fandom.com


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## Willbridge (Apr 25, 2021)

railiner said:


> Time.....will be the judge of that...
> I’d put my money on The Budd Company produced products for longevity


Yes, we should pause for a moment to remember that back when railcar orders were routine an American company could lead the world in technology.

In December 1969 I rode "Les Budds" in Paris suburban service, complete with those pastel bulkheads. (My ex describes them as not being "true colors".) There are some lined up at Gare St. Lazare in the back of this photo.




And corrugated sides turned up in intercity cars. A sleeper on the Train Militaire in Berlin was the best equipment on any of the allies' trains in 1971.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 25, 2021)

Of course, this is very highly unlikely to happen, but I have THOUGHT of something for Amtrak to replace both the Amfleets and the Superliners. I think Amtrak should purchase something similar if not the same as a MultiLevel, both for corridor services and long-distance services. However, they would have to receive heavy modifications for Amtrak specs (such as more comfortable seats, ADA accessibility, 125+ MPH, etc). MultiLevels are bilevel just like a Superliner and therefore provide more capacity than a single level car. But unlike a Superliner (which is approximately 16 feet tall), a MultiLevel is approximately 14 feet tall and can fit through the Hudson River tunnels. And based off of research, a MultiLevel coach actually provides more seating capacity than a Superliner coach. What would any of y'all think of Amtrak replacing their Amfleets and Superliners with something similar to the MultiLevel?


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## Cal (Apr 26, 2021)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Of course, this is very highly unlikely to happen, but I have THOUGHT of something for Amtrak to replace both the Amfleets and the Superliners. I think Amtrak should purchase something similar if not the same as a MultiLevel, both for corridor services and long-distance services. However, they would have to receive heavy modifications for Amtrak specs (such as more comfortable seats, ADA accessibility, 125+ MPH, etc). MultiLevels are bilevel just like a Superliner and therefore provide more capacity than a single level car. But unlike a Superliner (which is approximately 16 feet tall), a MultiLevel is approximately 14 feet tall and can fit through the Hudson River tunnels. And based off of research, a MultiLevel coach actually provides more seating capacity than a Superliner coach. What would any of y'all think of Amtrak replacing their Amfleets and Superliners with something similar to the MultiLevel?


However, I'm not sure how you're supposed to have upper bunks in a multi-level. Aren't the ceilings lower?


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Apr 26, 2021)

Cal said:


> However, I'm not sure how you're supposed to have upper bunks in a multi-level. Aren't the ceilings lower?


Probably not necessarily. It would probably depend on how the car is designed.


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## Trogdor (Apr 26, 2021)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Probably not necessarily. It would probably depend on how the car is designed.



Absolutely necessarily. If you’re trying to fit on the NEC, it has to be shorter than a Superliner by a bit. How do you reduce height but not have lower ceilings, given that there isn’t really any wasted height on Superliners already?


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## Ryan (Apr 26, 2021)

Magic?

The other issue with multilevel is ADA access through the train. You can't just say "take this product that is inherently inaccessible and make it accessible". By the time you've done that, it isn't a multilevel anymore and you're back to a short bilevel that doesn't have the space (and therefore capacity) of a Superliner.


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## jiml (Apr 26, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Yes, we should pause for a moment to remember that back when railcar orders were routine an American company could lead the world in technology.
> 
> In December 1969 I rode "Les Budds" in Paris suburban service, complete with those pastel bulkheads. (My ex describes them as not being "true colors".) There are some lined up at Gare St. Lazare in the back of this photo.
> 
> ...


Let's not forget Australia either, where they form the backbone of the long-distance routes through some pretty harsh (desert-like) territory.


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## sttom (Apr 26, 2021)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Of course, this is very highly unlikely to happen, but I have THOUGHT of something for Amtrak to replace both the Amfleets and the Superliners. I think Amtrak should purchase something similar if not the same as a MultiLevel, both for corridor services and long-distance services. However, they would have to receive heavy modifications for Amtrak specs (such as more comfortable seats, ADA accessibility, 125+ MPH, etc). MultiLevels are bilevel just like a Superliner and therefore provide more capacity than a single level car. But unlike a Superliner (which is approximately 16 feet tall), a MultiLevel is approximately 14 feet tall and can fit through the Hudson River tunnels. And based off of research, a MultiLevel coach actually provides more seating capacity than a Superliner coach. What would any of y'all think of Amtrak replacing their Amfleets and Superliners with something similar to the MultiLevel?



There are a lot of problems that would be made by having a "common" fleet. Multi level cars would either have to have both low and high level doors to deal with the US having 2 different platform heights. Which would mean lost revenue space that at best would be a pain on trains running to New York and be wasted space on trains to the West Coast. 

Two feet doesn't sound like a lot, but that's enough for the upper bunks. Lowering the cars just to fit then into Penn Station would more than likely mean not having an upper bunk. So capacity wise they might be a wash compared to a superliner. 

On the multiple height thing, this would mean having to walk up and down the equivalent of 1 flight of stairs every car you pass through. So every time you want to go to the cafe car, diner or even if the bathroom is full, you have multiple sets of stairs to deal with. Yes the superliner so have stairs, but dealing with 1 in your own car under normal circumstances and 1 in the lounge is a different game than having to deal with the equivalent of one flight per car. Which is going to annoy people who don't have mobility issues before ADA has anything to say. 

I know the whole "common fleet = cheap maintenance" thing comes up, but the cars don't necessarily have to be the same to enable easier maintenance. Siemens Viaggio family comes in 4 varieties that share some of their parts. Design can mitigate some of the issues of maintaining a single level and a bilevel fleet. Not to mention that even Amtrak's relatively small fleet size is sufficiently large to do so. The problem with having non standard equipment is have 5 cars out of 500 be different. Not having 200 of one type and 300 of another. But to do this, Amtrak would need to replace the fleet in 2 giant orders. 

As for long distance capacity, Amtrak should not look into "creative and innovative ways" of cramming more people into less space. At some point just running more trains is easier. And frankly, would help them more. Running 3 trains per day on the over 24 hour run time LD trains would enable them to alternate the schedule in a way that most of the system would have at least 1 day time train. Which would also net more riders.


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## cocojacoby (Apr 26, 2021)

railiner said:


> Time.....will be the judge of that...
> I’d put my money on The Budd Company produced products for longevity



You know . . . how come Pullman Standard and Bombardier _don't get no credit_ for the Superliners? Some are over 40 years old and they still look really great. I haven't heard anything about them structurally failing but we will soon find out if they still have a future. If they are found suitable for rebuild and soldier on for many more years, I believe they will win the all-time longevity award.


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## PerRock (Apr 26, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Hmm... Is Amtrak ALC-42 being used on the NEC long haul trains or the Diesel only long haul trains?
> 
> Maybe I got confused with the diesel electric wording because it may just be the traction motors. If so, then the ALC-42 will go to Diesel only routes and the Sprinters and P42 will remain in use. They could couple them together as other P42 will be phased out and there will be a lot more P42 available till a dual mode replacement is available.



The P42s aren't dual mode either, nor are the P40s. So they will likely all be retired with the arrival of the ALC-42s. The P32AC-DMs will probably stick around until Amtrak orders a dual-mode Charger/Sprinter (which they have talked about, and I think one of the commuter lines are getting already).

peter


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## railiner (Apr 26, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> You know . . . how come Pullman Standard and Bombardier _don't get no credit_ for the Superliners? Some are over 40 years old and they still look really great. I haven't heard anything about them structurally failing but we will soon find out if they still have a future. If they are found suitable for rebuild and soldier on for many more years, I believe they will win the all-time longevity award.


They do get credit, but....did you know they were evolved from the design of the original Budd / Santa Fe "Hi Level's", and when Pullman-Standard built the first Superliner's, they purchased certain patents from The Budd Company?
The Viewliner design, and the prototype sleepers and diner were also a product of Budd, so even though Budd is long gone, it has a very heavy presence in most of the current Amtrak fleet...


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## jis (Apr 26, 2021)

PerRock said:


> The P42s aren't dual mode either, nor are the P40s. So they will likely all be retired with the arrival of the ALC-42s. The P32AC-DMs will probably stick around until Amtrak orders a dual-mode Charger/Sprinter (which they have talked about, and I think one of the commuter lines are getting already).
> 
> peter


The trains that P32ACDMs pull however will be replaced by dual mode train sets from the current Amfleet I replacement order, however they are put together. It is likely that they will come with power heads that are like on the VIA or Bombardier train sets that are dual mode.


railiner said:


> They do get credit, but....did you know they were evolved from the design of the original Budd / Santa Fe "Hi Level's", and when Pullman-Standard built the first Superliner's, they purchased certain patents from The Budd Company?
> The Viewliner design, and the prototype sleepers and diner were also a product of Budd, so even though Budd is long gone, it has a very heavy presence in most of the current Amtrak fleet...


It was not just Budd. Lest we forget, Amtrak's design staff should get due credit too for both Superliners and Viewliners. They did work closely with Budd to come up with those designs.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 26, 2021)

IMHO the best thing for Amtrak to do is to use the Siemens single level cars and put long distance legrest seats in them. The design from the old budd cars was the best. For sleepers, I am sure Siemens could come up with something that approximated roomettes and bedrooms that we currently have. You either run longer trains, or you run two trains per day on segments that need it. One way of increase sleeper capacity is to have all roomette cars and have all bedroom cars. Then the designs for both types could be easily standardized.


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## jis (Apr 26, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> IMHO the best thing for Amtrak to do is to use the Siemens single level cars and put long distance legrest seats in them. The design from the old budd cars was the best. For sleepers, I am sure Siemens could come up with something that approximated roomettes and bedrooms that we currently have. You either run longer trains, or you run two trains per day on segments that need it. One way of increase sleeper capacity is to have all roomette cars and have all bedroom cars. Then the designs for both types could be easily standardized.


Remember those wonderful Sleepy Hollow seats of yore?

In order to make cars universally accessible it might become necessary to to only Roomette and only Bedroom cars in order to avoid sharp turns in the aisle. Who knows what the actual requirements are though?


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## PVD (Apr 26, 2021)

Under the present rules, an all roomette car would be a challenge due to difficulty in ADA compliance with a roomette.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 26, 2021)

PVD said:


> Under the present rules, an all roomette car would be a challenge due to difficulty in ADA compliance with a roomette.


Well, they could offer an all-roomette car with one handicapped room in the car.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Remember those wonderful Sleepy Hollow seats of yore?
> 
> I sure do. I rode in them when I was a kid. They used them on the heritage fleet coaches. I sure wish they could use them on the long distance coaches.


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## railiner (Apr 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Remember those wonderful Sleepy Hollow seats of yore?


I sure do, too...they were made by the Heywood-Wakefield Company, and were made after an extensive ergonomic study. They were made for coach and parlor cars, in singles and pairs, low-back for vista-domes, reclining, rotating, some with legrests, some just footrests, and some with 'wing' headrests...

From flickr
www.flickr.com/photos/chuckzeiler/42908235941





__





The First Post-War Streamliner |







streamlinermemories.info


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## railiner (Apr 26, 2021)

In reviewing those linked photos's, I believe the first one is actually not a Heywood-Wakefield chair, but rather a Karpen, a rival manufacturer. Karpen's were used in the Santa Fe "Hi Level" fleet.
The second link shows Heywood-Wakefield's design. They had the signature curved padded arms, and the multi section horizontal foam padding in the seatbacks, as well as a different type of legrest, which sort of 'unfolded' from under the seat, aided by small wheels, rather than sliding out like a drawer...


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## Mailliw (Apr 26, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> IMHO the best thing for Amtrak to do is to use the Siemens single level cars and put long distance legrest seats in them. The design from the old budd cars was the best. For sleepers, I am sure Siemens could come up with something that approximated roomettes and bedrooms that we currently have. You either run longer trains, or you run two trains per day on segments that need it. One way of increase sleeper capacity is to have all roomette cars and have all bedroom cars. Then the designs for both types could be easily standardized.


I completely agree with you. Adding a 2nd frequency to the long distance routes would be a much better way of dealing with reduced capacity in single-level cars. Trains could have a mix of coaches with corridor style seating and coaches with premium 2:1 seating for long distance travelers. All-roomette (+ADA bedroom) cars and all-bedroom cars would provide greater flexibility.


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## Gemuser (Apr 27, 2021)

jiml said:


> Why would they use Schafenburg couplers on the outer ends of a married consist, as opposed to standard AAR couplers? The latter would allow the new equipment to be intermingled with existing stock, e.g. Viewliners. North American railroads that have had (or still use) European rolling stock have traditionally had conventional coupling on the ends. Examples include VIA Renaissance equipment and even ONR's old TEE sets.


I was refering to remarshalling the train while traveling between terminals ala TE/Sunset & LSL. Schafenburgs would greatly simplfiy that as it can be done without anyone on the ground and would allow it to be expanded where it is useful. Not being able to intermingle with other stock could be considered an advantage, depending on operational needs.


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## Shortline (Apr 27, 2021)

I'll be honest, I haven't read thorugh all the pages of this thread, but curious, as I might be on a Cascades between PDX and SEA in a month or so, with the Talgo's gone what are they using for equipment now? I'm taking the Builder from SEA to CHI, and considering flying into PDX the day before, and taking the Cascades to SEA, vs flying into SEA. Haven't decided yet. If I do take the Cascades, what kind of train is it now? I assume probably Horizon cars?


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## Chris I (Apr 27, 2021)

Shortline said:


> I'll be honest, I haven't read thorugh all the pages of this thread, but curious, as I might be on a Cascades between PDX and SEA in a month or so, with the Talgo's gone what are they using for equipment now? I'm taking the Builder from SEA to CHI, and considering flying into PDX the day before, and taking the Cascades to SEA, vs flying into SEA. Haven't decided yet. If I do take the Cascades, what kind of train is it now? I assume probably Horizon cars?


We still have the two Talgo VIII ODOT-owned trainsets on the route. So you probably have a 50/50 chance of being on Talgo or Horizons.


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## Shortline (Apr 27, 2021)

Chris I said:


> We still have the two Talgo VIII ODOT-owned trainsets on the route. So you probably have a 50/50 chance of being on Talgo or Horizons.


Oh, ok, I thought they were all gone. Cool. I'm taking the 8 something AM train, #500. Would be nice to try the Talgo before it's gone. In either case, what is business class, is it 2-1 or regular 2-2 seating? Thanks,


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## Cal (Apr 27, 2021)

Shortline said:


> Oh, ok, I thought they were all gone. Cool. I'm taking the 8 something AM train, #500. Would be nice to try the Talgo before it's gone. In either case, what is business class, is it 2-1 or regular 2-2 seating? Thanks,


So even the Talgo 8s will be put out of service? :/


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## Shortline (Apr 27, 2021)

Cal said:


> So even the Talgo 8s will be put out of service? :/


Got me. Sorry, I thought they were gone, I don't go out that way much, so haven't kept up with it. I thought they were all gone, but I guess there are still a couple sets left. No idea if they are going to go, or stay. Guess it's a good thing I asked!


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## Cal (Apr 27, 2021)

Shortline said:


> Got me. Sorry, I thought they were gone, I don't go out that way much, so haven't kept up with it. I thought they were all gone, but I guess there are still a couple sets left. No idea if they are going to go, or stay. Guess it's a good thing I asked!


I believe two Talgo 8 sets are in service right now. 

I'm fuzzy on if they're being retired or not, and when. Since if they are, it will be many years without replacement. Not sure how they are supposed to return to normal service with two sets. Unless the horizons will be permanent.


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## Shortline (Apr 27, 2021)

Thanks. Are they on certain trains normally, or just luck of the draw? I'm on 500 the AM departure from Portland, on a Saturday in June.


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## Cal (Apr 27, 2021)

Shortline said:


> Thanks. Are they on certain trains normally, or just luck of the draw? I'm on 500 the AM departure from Portland, on a Saturday in June.


I have no idea. I would think they usually on certain trains as when the Surfliners use horizons they are usually always on certain trains. However, I don't know. By the time you go, they should be up to 3 round trips a day between PDX and SEA so that does lower your chances of getting one


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## jiml (Apr 27, 2021)

Shortline said:


> Oh, ok, I thought they were all gone. Cool. I'm taking the 8 something AM train, #500. Would be nice to try the Talgo before it's gone. In either case, what is business class, is it 2-1 or regular 2-2 seating? Thanks,


In 2017 the newest Talgos (Oregon sets) were the nicest trains in the Amtrak system. Seating is 2-1 in Business Class. Unfortunately I didn't venture any further than the bar on my short connection from the Empire Builder at Seattle, so can't confirm seating in coach.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 27, 2021)

The train that originates in Eugene is probably the best bet to ride an Oregon state Talgo. I rode the early morning train from Eugene to Portland. First train of the day. I assumed it continued to Seattle.


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 28, 2021)

Amtrak had better strike while the iron is hot and get an order in for new Superliners. It's not likely there will ever be a more 'Amtrak friendly' Administration and come midterms Democrats are likely to lose seats. As I see it, this is a now or never deal. Why the delay?


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## IndyLions (Apr 28, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Amtrak had better strike while the iron is hot and get an order in for new Superliners. It's not likely there will ever be a more 'Amtrak friendly' Administration and come midterms Democrats are likely to lose seats. As I see it, this is a now or never deal. Why the delay?



I agree with you - three things.

While it’s not a “conspiracy” - recent Amtrak management just hasn’t cared that much about long distance. So replacing Superliners wasn’t given appropriate urgency in their equipment replacement plan.

Second - this is obvious after examining their “Connect US” map - they don’t have any idea what “thinking big” means.

Third - they are a huge bureaucracy and can’t move fast, especially when it comes to highly regulated procurement procedures.

So I hope I’m completely wrong - but I’m not sure they could move any faster than their published equipment replacement plan if they wanted to.


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## Chris I (Apr 28, 2021)

jiml said:


> In 2017 the newest Talgos (Oregon sets) were the nicest trains in the Amtrak system. Seating is 2-1 in Business Class. Unfortunately I didn't venture any further than the bar on my short connection from the Empire Builder at Seattle, so can't confirm seating in coach.


Agreed. I liked both the old and new Talgos, but the new ones were probably one of the nicest rides in North America. I'm not sure if they will retire the series VIII trains when the new Siemens cars arrive, but there's a good chance.

I think we're all a bit peeved that WSDOT didn't work with Amtrak to bring over the idle Wisconsin sets. 4 trainsets would be enough to cover the 2021 summer schedule, since we aren't running trains north of Seattle at this point.


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## Cal (Apr 28, 2021)

Chris I said:


> Agreed. I liked both the old and new Talgos, but the new ones were probably one of the nicest rides in North America. I'm not sure if they will retire the series VIII trains when the new Siemens cars arrive, but there's a good chance.
> 
> I think we're all a bit peeved that WSDOT didn't work with Amtrak to bring over the idle Wisconsin sets. 4 trainsets would be enough to cover the 2021 summer schedule, since we aren't running trains north of Seattle at this point.


What will happen when the full schedules resumes? Horizon cars being put in until the new Siemens?


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## jis (Apr 28, 2021)

Cal said:


> What will happen when the full schedules resumes? Horizon cars being put in until the new Siemens?


Yes.


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## Cal (Apr 28, 2021)

jis said:


> Yes.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 28, 2021)

Chris I said:


> Agreed. I liked both the old and new Talgos, but the new ones were probably one of the nicest rides in North America. I'm not sure if they will retire the series VIII trains when the new Siemens cars arrive, but there's a good chance.
> 
> I think we're all a bit peeved that WSDOT didn't work with Amtrak to bring over the idle Wisconsin sets. 4 trainsets would be enough to cover the 2021 summer schedule, since we aren't running trains north of Seattle at this point.


I actually think it's a 50/50 chance that the Series 8 trains will be retired. The Series 8 sets are owned by ODOT, not WSDOT. 

I think the critical question is: With the five other Series VI trainsets gone, will Talgo sharply increase the maintenance contract cost to ODOT?

If Talgo keeps the costs the same or slightly higher, I can see ODOT keeping the equipment they've already paid for. 
However, if Talgo raises the price, and Siemens offers a good price on new equipment, ODOT could choose to dump their sets.


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## Cal (Apr 28, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> I actually think it's a 50/50 chance that the Series 8 trains will be retired. The Series 8 sets are owned by ODOT, not WSDOT.
> 
> I think the critical question is: With the five other Series VI trainsets gone, will Talgo sharply increase the maintenance contract cost to ODOT?
> 
> ...


Wouldn't it be easier for them to completely replace them with Siemens? If not, they will have to permanently use Horizon sets. I doubt they will order more Talgos, as the Wisconsin ones have been sitting there for ages and no moves.


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## neroden (Apr 28, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> IMHO the best thing for Amtrak to do is to use the Siemens single level cars and put long distance legrest seats in them. The design from the old budd cars was the best. For sleepers, I am sure Siemens could come up with something that approximated roomettes and bedrooms that we currently have. You either run longer trains, or you run two trains per day on segments that need it. One way of increase sleeper capacity is to have all roomette cars and have all bedroom cars. Then the designs for both types could be easily standardized.


Siemens makes sleeping cars for Austria. They can do it.








Siemens unveils first painted car body for ÖBB Nightjet fleet


Siemens unveiled the first painted car body for a new fleet of 13 seven-car Nightjet overnight trains for ÖBB in Vienna on February 23.




www.railjournal.com


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## rickycourtney (Apr 28, 2021)

Cal said:


> Wouldn't it be easier for them to completely replace them with Siemens? If not, they will have to permanently use Horizon sets. I doubt they will order more Talgos, as the Wisconsin ones have been sitting there for ages and no moves.


Here's the easiest way to break it down: WSDOT owned three Talgo Series VI trainsets, Amtrak owned two Talgo Series VI trainsets, and ODOT owns two Talgo Series 8 trainsets.

One of the WSDOT owned Talgo Series VI trainsets was destroyed in the 2017 derailment.

WSDOT was awarded a $37.5 million federal grant to cover 50% of the cost of purchasing new passenger rail cars to replace the three Talgo Series VI trainsets.

WSDOT, long ago, committed to purchase the same equipment as the Amfleet I replacement... so that money will be used to purchase three trainsets from Siemens.

It's also my understanding that WSDOT also received insurance proceeds from Amtrak (compensation for wrecking equipment owned by WSDOT). A big chunk of that money was used to purchase Charger #1408, but there should also be money left over to further offset the cost of the new equipment.

Presumably, two Amtrak-owned Siemens trainsets would also be dedicated to the Cascades.

That just leaves the ODOT-owned Talgo 8 trainsets. They are only eight years old, and they are fully FRA-compliant... so I doubt that ODOT wants to get rid of them... but for as long as they have them... Talgo demands that they do the maintenance on them... which could be a lot more expensive with just two trainsets to service, instead of seven.

Oh, it's also worth mentioning that Amtrak committed to WSDOT that the very first Amfleet I replacement trainsets to come off the line would go to the Cascades.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 28, 2021)

I just wanted to share this... the new Siemens cars for the San Joaquins have three types of doors.
Low-platform doors: 3 steps inside the car and 2 sliding steps (so a step box is not needed)
High-platform doors: level boarding at high-platforms
Wheelchair lift doors: lift can be deployed at low-platform stops (so a hand-cranked lift is not needed) and door can presumably be used for level boarding at high-platforms

IMHO, having all three types of doors would be awesome, particularly for the NEC trainsets that travel into Virginia.

Video of low-platform doors with automatic steps:


Video of high-platform door:


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## Cal (Apr 28, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> I just wanted to share this... the new Siemens cars for the San Joaquins have three types of doors.
> Low-platform doors: 3 steps inside the car and 2 sliding steps (so a step box is not needed)
> High-platform doors: level boarding at high-platforms
> Wheelchair lift doors: lift can be deployed at low-platform stops (so a hand-cranked lift is not needed) and door can presumably be used for level boarding at high-platforms
> ...



Well something similar should be the Amfleet I replacements so...


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## Mailliw (Apr 28, 2021)

Cool, I didn't realize they had low platform doors. Another argument in favor of a universal long distance fleet.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 28, 2021)

The mini suites on those nightjet cars are a no go for me. No window. The standard and deluxe rooms with showers could work. Wish there were more pictures.


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## Mailliw (Apr 28, 2021)

They have a small window in each pod, it's hard to see unless it's an inside photo. I do wonder what exactly the difference is between the standard and deluxe compartments is since apparently they both have ensuite facilities.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 28, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> IMHO, having all three types of doors would be awesome, particularly for the NEC trainsets that travel into Virginia.



Not to mention the NEC trainsets that end up at the lower level at Washington Union Station. (And quite a lot of DC-NY trains do board there, even if they originate in Washington.)


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## Ferroequinologist (Apr 29, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> I agree with you - three things.
> 
> While it’s not a “conspiracy” - recent Amtrak management just hasn’t cared that much about long distance. So replacing Superliners wasn’t given appropriate urgency in their equipment replacement plan.
> 
> ...



Biden is moving at lightening speed. Maybe he needs to intervene with Amtrak. Maybe time to replace some key management people. Why should Amtrak be left behind when everything else is changing?


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## SubwayNut (Apr 29, 2021)

Except for Acela, any Northeast Regional train needs to still be able to stop at low-level platforms. Westerly & Mystic are still low-level and New London has enough space to platform only one to two cars high-level.

I think Cornwells Heights, Newark, DE and Aberdeen are also still low-level too.

This doesn't include off-corridor stops into Virginia some of which would probably require gauntlet track for freight trains so these wider trains won't clip the sides of the high-level platforms. Since Virigina Railway Express is all galley cars that require low-level platforms it would also require separate Amtrak platforms at all of these stops.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 29, 2021)

A few more pictures to share...

Here are the Venture cars used by Brightline. They use automatic gap fillers/bridge plates to meet platforms that are built to the STRACNET clearance of 75” from track centerline. Not sure the exact specs on the NEC.





And here are the new cars for the San Joaquins... you can see the high-platform door on the right and the low-platform door on the left (you can also see the yellow trap door stored inside).




The wrinkle for the cars for the San Joaquin is that the CPUC (California Public Utilities Commission) requires a clearance of 90” from track centerline, so those cars will need a much larger bridge plate that may need to be manually operated (flipped up and down).


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## MisterUptempo (Apr 29, 2021)

^^^For sake of completeness, here is a shot of the motorized stairs on the Ventures that will be in use in low platform territory-


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## Mailliw (Apr 29, 2021)

So boarding from a low platform station appears to present as much difficulty as boarding an intercity bus. And unlike most intercity busses a wheelchair lift is always available.


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## Chris I (Apr 30, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> A few more pictures to share...
> 
> Here are the Venture cars used by Brightline. They use automatic gap fillers/bridge plates to meet platforms that are built to the STRACNET clearance of 75” from track centerline. Not sure the exact specs on the NEC.
> 
> ...


I think these will be a good option for services like Cascades, because of the door flexibility. We really should have high platforms at the major stations (EUG, PDX, TAC, SEA) to reduce dwell times. But it doesn't really make sense to upgrade some of the smaller stops.


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## sitzplatz17 (May 1, 2021)

Chris I said:


> I think these will be a good option for services like Cascades, because of the door flexibility. We really should have high platforms at the major stations (EUG, PDX, TAC, SEA) to reduce dwell times. But it doesn't really make sense to upgrade some of the smaller stops.


I would love to see high platforms here. But the problem then is what do you do with the Sounder, Coast Starlight, and Talgo VIII? Those are all low platform trains. Maybe in the very long term there could be a shift to high platforms. But as long as there’s significant low platform equipment running here it seems hard to imagine there would be any investment in high platforms.


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## neroden (May 1, 2021)

The solution of having a low-platform door and a high-platform door is pretty smart. I do question what the Siemens wheelchair-access solution at the low-platform stations is, since I haven't seen it in action. I'm sure they have one.

I do think the low-platform motorized stairs there are not going to work well in the frozen north during winter, unless there's a secret ice-melter heater which isn't visible in the pictures: this affects Michigan, Vermont, and upstate NY among others. Those are all areas where it would be good to go to high platforms everywhere But someone recently renovated the Schenectady station with low-level platforms and it's gonna cause problems...


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## rickycourtney (May 1, 2021)

neroden said:


> The solution of having a low-platform door and a high-platform door is pretty smart. I do question what the Siemens wheelchair-access solution at the low-platform stations is, since I haven't seen it in action. I'm sure they have one.
> 
> I do think the low-platform motorized stairs there are not going to work well in the frozen north during winter, unless there's a secret ice-melter heater which isn't visible in the pictures: this affects Michigan, Vermont, and upstate NY among others. Those are all areas where it would be good to go to high platforms everywhere But someone recently renovated the Schenectady station with low-level platforms and it's gonna cause problems...


The wheelchair-access solution is (could be) a car-borne lift, similar to what they have on the California Car and Talgo fleets. The other option is to build mini-high platforms at the low-platform stations... or continue to use the awful hand-cranked lifts.
VIA Rail is buying the same trains for their Corridor trains... so I'm sure there will be a solution to keeping the stairs from freezing.


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## neroden (May 1, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> The wheelchair-access solution is (could be) a car-borne lift, similar to what they have on the California Car and Talgo fleets. The other option is to build mini-high platforms at the low-platform stations... or continue to use the awful hand-cranked lifts.
> VIA Rail is buying the same trains for their Corridor trains... so I'm sure there will be a solution to keeping the stairs from freezing.



Ah, but is the car-borne lift on the "high-platform" door or on the "low-platform stairs" door and how does it deploy? Inquiring minds want to know.

It will be interesting to see VIA's solution for preventing the stairs from freezing. I'm sort of glad they're the guinea pig and not NY, but I'm also a bit worried.


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## railiner (May 1, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> A few more pictures to share...
> 
> Here are the Venture cars used by Brightline. They use automatic gap fillers/bridge plates to meet platforms that are built to the STRACNET clearance of 75” from track centerline. Not sure the exact specs on the NEC.
> 
> ...


I wonder if Amtrak will order long distance versions of these, with only a single vestibule, like the Amfleet II's?


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## rickycourtney (May 1, 2021)

neroden said:


> Ah, but is the car-borne lift on the "high-platform" door or on the "low-platform stairs" door and how does it deploy? Inquiring minds want to know.


On the cars California ordered, the lift is on the high-platform doors.

I think the logic is, those high-platform doors couldn’t otherwise be used at low-platform stations… so this gives them use. Also, the low-platform doors have flip down traps, so they can be used at high-platform stations.

All that said, I get the impression that Siemens is pretty flexible and will build the cars how Amtrak or any other customer wants them built.


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## Mailliw (May 2, 2021)

railiner said:


> I wonder if Amtrak will order long distance versions of these, with only a single vestibule, like the Amfleet II's?


That would be hard if each vestibule is designed for a different platform height. Instead of coming up with a long distance version per se Amtrak could put economy coaches with Corridor style seating on LDs for passengers traveling shorter distances and business class coaches with 2:1 extended recline seating for long distance passengers. We'd finally get an intermediate option between economy and sleeper. In any even all the couches, including on the NEC, should have a 2nd non-handicaped restroom.


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## railiner (May 2, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> That would be hard if each vestibule is designed for a different platform height. Instead of coming up with a long distance version per se Amtrak could put economy coaches with Corridor style seating on LDs for passengers traveling shorter distances and business class coaches with 2:1 extended recline seating for long distance passengers. We'd finally get an intermediate option between economy and sleeper. In any even all the couches, including on the NEC, should have a 2nd non-handicaped restroom.


One vestibule, with steps and a trap, can serve both high and low platforms. Eliminating the second vestibule adds about five feet of carbody space for whatever is needed...another restroom or more seating....or even some storage space.


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## west point (May 3, 2021)

How about a mini high platform that has a retractable parform that extends to passenger car ?That is needed to give clearance to plate "H" cars on freight trains passing the platform. of corse if a station had a passenger only tack no problem.


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## PerRock (May 3, 2021)

west point said:


> How about a mini high platform that has a retractable parform that extends to passenger car ?That is needed to give clearance to plate "H" cars on freight trains passing the platform. of corse if a station had a passenger only tack no problem.



Ann Arbor has one of those... I don't think I've ever seen them actual use the retractable part after the press releases. In fact it may be broken, as they keep the old-school ramps up there these days. It's also a pain as they try to force everyone to board & disembark off from this little platform.

peter


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## jiml (May 3, 2021)

GO Transit experimented with one of those several years ago. Although predicted to fail in cold weather, that didn't turn out to be the problem. Rather rain got into the mechanism and caused it to bind and become unreliable. They went with short concrete raises on the main platforms system-wide, coupled with aluminum ramps carried onboard the trains.


Not all are as nicely covered as this one and the train must always spot at the exact location.


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## Cal (May 3, 2021)

jiml said:


> GO Transit experimented with one of those several years ago. Although predicted to fail in cold weather, that didn't turn out to be the problem. Rather rain got into the mechanism and caused it to bind and become unreliable. They went with short concrete raises on the main platforms system-wide, coupled with aluminum ramps carried onboard the trains.
> View attachment 22145
> 
> Not all are as nicely covered as this one and the train must always spot at the exact location.


We have that in Metrolink. However usually ours are at one end of the platform, which can make for a long walk. And the lengh is much shorter!


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## joelkfla (May 3, 2021)

Cal said:


> We have that in Metrolink. However usually ours are at one end of the platform, which can make for a long walk. And the lengh is much shorter!


Same on SunRail in Orlando, but I believe trains are usually just 2-3 cars plus loco.

I'd assumed they were becoming standard on new or renovated commuter rail systems.


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## SubwayNut (May 3, 2021)

Cal said:


> We have that in Metrolink. However usually ours are at one end of the platform, which can make for a long walk. And the lengh is much shorter!


I think the most amusing station for these is Oceanside where there one on each end of the platform, one for coaster, one for Metrolink. The stops shared by the 91 Line and Inland Empire-Orange County Line need two too because of the fact that the locomotive is on the front eastbound for 91 Line trains, but on the back for Inland Empire trains.


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## Cal (May 3, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Same on SunRail in Orlando, but I believe trains are usually just 2-3 cars plus loco.
> 
> I'd assumed they were becoming standard on new or renovated commuter rail systems.


Yeah, many of our lines are 5-6 cars + engine. All of them are at least four cars + engine.


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## jiml (May 3, 2021)

Cal said:


> We have that in Metrolink. However usually ours are at one end of the platform, which can make for a long walk. And the lengh is much shorter!



GO's is always 5 cars from the locomotive, regardless of route. Less-busy trains (and Covid consists) have 6 or 7 cars and normal trains are 10-12. With the disability coach always in the same position the only people with a long walk or run will be those anticipating a long train when a short one shows up.


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## SubwayNut (May 3, 2021)

The big issue of wheelchair passengers only have one car/location for them avalible to them is that it removes the choice of where to go and who to be around while on public transit. I had a long conversation with a friend who had recently started needing to use a wheelchair that I still remember who commuted using RTD light rail in Denver. RTD light rail uses low-floor vehicles with mini-high platforms for one door at the very front of all trains, she was complaining about how it meant that she couldn't move away from people who she didn't want to be around, like going to the next car, that those of us who are able bodied and ride transit do by second nature, when we want to move away from a situation we don't want to be in.

I like like the fact that GO transit makes it the fifth car in the middle of train. On Metrolink in particular it's always the car at the away from Los Angeles end (if I'm remembering correctly) of the train. This means that short trains must always stop at the front end of the platform even if the station exit is only at the rear of the train, making everyone travel farther to get on and off the train.


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## MARC Rider (May 3, 2021)

Baltimore light rail has mini-high platforms, and when I was riding regularly, they functioned pretty well, except that the boarding process involved the motor man fussing around a bit, which delayed the trip. But that was 1980s technology. Surely they can make an automated door/boarding plate today that would work.


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## Mailliw (Jun 7, 2021)

When will more details be available like what the trainsets will consist of be available?


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## jis (Jun 7, 2021)

There are a few rumors floating around that predominantly the Amfleet I replacement will be 7 car sets with a cab car. Presumably they will be powered by existing and yet to be acquired locomotives/power heads at the opposite end from the cab car. Basically they will be Amrailjet sets.


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## Mailliw (Jun 7, 2021)

Cool. I'm curious if Amtrak will go with cafe/coach cars or cafe/lounge cars for the NEC.


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## jis (Jun 8, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Cool. I'm curious if Amtrak will go with cafe/coach cars or cafe/lounge cars for the NEC.


The food service car type is designated as Diner/Lounge.


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## Andrew (Jun 9, 2021)

jis said:


> There are a few rumors floating around that predominantly the Amfleet I replacement will be 7 car sets with a cab car. Presumably they will be powered by existing and yet to be acquired locomotives/power heads at the opposite end from the cab car. Basically they will be Amrailjet sets.



Does that 7 car set include the proposed cab car or are you saying 7 car set in addition to a cab car? And would the Empire and Keystone trains also be 7 cars long? 

I assume the acquired locomotives you are referring to are dual-mode locomotives?


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## west point (Jun 10, 2021)

Andrew said:


> I assume the acquired locomotives you are referring to are dual-mode locomotives?



It is too early to know!


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

Andrew said:


> Does that 7 car set include the proposed cab car or are you saying 7 car set in addition to a cab car? And would the Empire and Keystone trains also be 7 cars long?


7 cars includes the cab car for 70 sets of 7 cars = 490 cars. These are the primary NEC spine and extension trains.


> I assume the acquired locomotives you are referring to are dual-mode locomotives?


They can use any locomotives, current or future. They could operate like today with ACS64s on the spine and then Chargers or P42s south of Washington DC, or some fancy catenary dual mode locomotives if they come to pass. Or current dual modes if used in Empire Service, though I suspect those may be from this other group of cars mentioned.


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## Mailliw (Jun 10, 2021)

According to Siemens reference design the seating capacities are; economy coach 70, economy cab 62, first/business coach 50 (2:1 layout), and cafe/economy coach 44. I imagine state corridors would have smaller consists (for example Keystones don't have food service or business class).


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## MARC Rider (Jun 10, 2021)

jis said:


> 7 cars includes the cab car for 70 sets of 7 cars = 490 cars. These are the primary NEC spine and extension trains.


Before Covid shortened the consists, the typical Northeast Regional train had 8 cars. If they switch to 7 car trains, they're going to have reduced capacity, unless they run more frequent trains. Will they have the flexibility to run longer consists when traffic demands? (I'm thinking mainly of busy seasons, like Thanksgiving, but even during the normal rush hours, the Northeast Regionals can get crowded.)


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

At first blush, it looks like the 7 car sets will be semi-permanently coupled with standard tight lock coupler only at one end of the Cab Car and the End Business/Economy Car. Each consist will have 3 Coaches, one Cab Coach and two Business/Economy cars as the revenue cars and the Diner/Lounge as the non-rev car.

I suspect they are shooting for more frequent service rather than longer trains. which I am all in favor of, if they can pull it off.

I am also wondering what they are thinking in terms of the soft product to be offered in the Diner/Lounge.

There are 8 sets for State service with 4 Coaches, 1 BC and 1 Diner Lounge each, with some cars in married pairs.

The Washington State sets are 5 in number with all cars with standard couplers 3 Coaches, 1 Cab Coach, 1 Business/Economy and one Diner/Lounge.

I can see this document from which I am reading these off. I am not sure how authentic this is. But it is what it is.


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## Mailliw (Jun 10, 2021)

Thanks! More frequent service is always a better idea than longer trains.. I wonder what the rational is behind having 2 Business/Economy cars instead of a separate Business Class car and additional Economy car?


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Thanks! I wonder what the rational is behind having 2 Business/Economy cars instead of a separate Business Class car and additional Economy car?


That is just terminology. Business Economy as opposed to Business First I presume, as found on Brightline. My assumption is that Business Economy is probably 2x2 with some additional seat features and more leg room or some such. But it is Business Class. But please do realize, this is pretty much speculation. All I can see is a diagram with these terms on it, and I am guessing beyond that.

The semi permanently coupled I am getting from the coupler configuration identified as S for semi-permanent and H for AAR Type H tight-lock coupler.

There are 490 cars (70 sets of 7) designated Amtrak-NE, 48 (8 sets of 6) cars designated Amtrak for a total of 538 Amfleet I replacement, and then there are 30 cars (5 sets of 6) designated WSDOT.


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## west point (Jun 10, 2021)

More trains? Just how is Amtrak going to squeezer more trains thru the North River tunnel bores? maybe cut NJT back ?


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

west point said:


> More trains? Just how is Amtrak going to squeezer more trains thru the North River tunnel bores? maybe cut NJT back ?


That is relevant problem only in two 90 minute windows inbound in the morning and outbound in the afternoon. Rest of the day, not a problem at all. And within ten years it should be somewhat less of a problem, notwithstanding A interlocking congestion issues post new tunnels construction.


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## Cal (Jun 10, 2021)

jis said:


> That is just terminology. Business Economy as opposed to Business First I presume, as found on Brightline. My assumption is that Business Economy is probably 2x2 with some additional seat features and more leg room or some such. But it is Business Class. But please do realize, this is pretty much speculation. All I can see is a diagram with these terms on it, and I am guessing beyond that.
> 
> The semi permanently coupled I am getting from the coupler configuration identified as S for semi-permanent and H for AAR Type H tight-lock coupler.
> 
> There are 490 cars (70 sets of 7) designated Amtrak-NE, 48 (8 sets of 6) cars designated Amtrak for a total of 538 Amfleet I replacement, and then there are 30 cars (5 sets of 6) designated WSDOT.


HOw many sets for Amtrak midwest?

Also, some of these sets might be for the new corridors that could possibly come.

Edited to say "midwest" and not simply west. Oops


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

Cal said:


> HOw many sets for Amtrak west?
> 
> Also, some of these sets might be for the new corridors that could possibly come.


Amtrak West? Other than Washington DOT none.

None designated for future corridors yet. These are for NEC and current state corridors who have chosen to lease equipment from Amtrak.


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## Cal (Jun 10, 2021)

jis said:


> Amtrak West? Other than Washington DOT none.
> 
> None designated for future corridors yet. These are for NEC and current state corridors who have chosen to lease equipment from Amtrak.


Whoops, midwest*


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

Cal said:


> Whoops, midwest*


Nope. Midwest was a separate order that is mostly under production or delivered already, apparently undergoing some serious bug fixing now. This list is of order being finalized.


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## JontyMort (Jun 10, 2021)

jis said:


> At first blush, it looks like the 7 car sets will be semi-permanently coupled with standard tight lock coupler only at one end of the Cab Car and the End Business/Economy Car. Each consist will have 3 Coaches, one Cab Coach and two Business/Economy cars as the revenue cars and the Diner/Lounge as the non-rev car.
> 
> I suspect they are shooting for more frequent service rather than longer trains. which I am all in favor of, if they can pull it off.


Presumably on the NEC push-pull working should produce shorter turn-round times - especially at Boston - but would also allow the Regionals to start from or terminate at New York if that were desirable (say in the early morning or late evening).

More frequent trains are good, but bring their own challenges - the more frequent the service, the greater the need to keep to time.


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## jiml (Jun 11, 2021)

jis said:


> 7 cars includes the cab car for 70 sets of 7 cars = 490 cars. These are the primary NEC spine and extension trains.
> 
> They can use any locomotives, current or future. They could operate like today with ACS64s on the spine and then Chargers or P42s south of Washington DC, or some fancy catenary dual mode locomotives if they come to pass. Or current dual modes if used in Empire Service, though I suspect those may be from this other group of cars mentioned.


The key takeaway I see is being able to obtain and use these coaches without having to make a decision on locomotive replacements - yet. The regional electrics aren't that old - heck, look how long the AEM7's lasted. Not having to commit to new motive power actually looks like a smart move in the short term for various reasons.


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## JontyMort (Jun 11, 2021)

jiml said:


> The key takeaway I see is being able to obtain and use these coaches without having to make a decision on locomotive replacements - yet. The regional electrics aren't that old - heck, look how long the AEM7's lasted. Not having to commit to new motive power actually looks like a smart move in the short term for various reasons.


The ACS-64s are indeed very young - scarcely shaken down, in fact. This method of operations works well. In the UK we have used it quite a lot over the years - London to Glasgow via the West Coast pre-2002 and London to Edinburgh via the East Coast until recently, both with electric locomotives. But in Britain it has never been done regularly with a traction change. A thought, maybe, might be for the NEC sets to have a cab car at *both* ends (we never did this in the UK, because they used Driving Van Trailers with no passengers). This has the potential to speed up operations at - say - New Haven. Arrive from New York with an electric on the front, stick the diesel on the back and remove the electric from the front *in parallel* - much quicker.


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## Andrew (Jun 11, 2021)

jis said:


> At first blush, it looks like the 7 car sets will be semi-permanently coupled with standard tight lock coupler only at one end of the Cab Car and the End Business/Economy Car. Each consist will have 3 Coaches, one Cab Coach and two Business/Economy cars as the revenue cars and the Diner/Lounge as the non-rev car.
> 
> I suspect they are shooting for more frequent service rather than longer trains. which I am all in favor of, if they can pull it off.
> 
> ...





jis said:


> That is just terminology. Business Economy as opposed to Business First I presume, as found on Brightline. My assumption is that Business Economy is probably 2x2 with some additional seat features and more leg room or some such. But it is Business Class. But please do realize, this is pretty much speculation. All I can see is a diagram with these terms on it, and I am guessing beyond that.
> 
> The semi permanently coupled I am getting from the coupler configuration identified as S for semi-permanent and H for AAR Type H tight-lock coupler.
> 
> There are 490 cars (70 sets of 7) designated Amtrak-NE, 48 (8 sets of 6) cars designated Amtrak for a total of 538 Amfleet I replacement, and then there are 30 cars (5 sets of 6) designated WSDOT.



Can you please share the document where you got this information? So, I seem to think based on reading this information, that Keystone and Empire trains will be lengthened to seven Coaches from 5 cars.

Will the 8 sets of six Coaches go the Downeaster?


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## Palmetto (Jun 11, 2021)

Amtrak engine #300, their new ACL42 has left the Siemens plant in Sacramento. It's to be taken east [on Amtrak #6, I assume].


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## Andrew (Jun 11, 2021)

jis said:


> That is relevant problem only in two 90 minute windows inbound in the morning and outbound in the afternoon. Rest of the day, not a problem at all. And within ten years it should be somewhat less of a problem, notwithstanding A interlocking congestion issues post new tunnels construction.



What two 90 minutes time period are those? like 7:30 until 9 AM?

Also, if Amtrak does order 70 trainsets of 7 cars each, wouldn't that mean that the Empire and Kesystone trains receive cafe-cars?


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## PVD (Jun 11, 2021)

Even if they are in the mix, that doesn't mean they will operate. Lots of NYS/Empire Service trains run NYP-ALB, and go no further. The split BC/cafe runs with the cafe closed.


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## jis (Jun 11, 2021)

PVD said:


> Even if they are in the mix, that doesn't mean they will operate. Lots of NYS/Empire Service trains run NYP-ALB, and go no further. The split BC/cafe runs with the cafe closed.


That is true, and that may very well be the case on the sets ordered for State services in NY State.

But it would be completely remarkable if there is never any soft product offered in the Diner/Lounge car on any of the 70 sets on any routes ever!


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## Mailliw (Jun 11, 2021)

Ordering brand new cafe cars for routes they won't operate on is asinine even for Amtrak. Cafe service is/was in the planning stages for the Empire Service, but the Keystone Service would be luck to get vending machines. I assume most state corridors that have food service would go with cafe/coaches, maybe with trains like Carolinian, Pennsylvanian, etc getting the cafe/lounge cars.


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## jis (Jun 11, 2021)

There are no Cafe/Coaches anywhere in the current order so far.


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## west point (Jun 11, 2021)

This quick turning of Amtrak trains will never happen. How will it ever clean the cars quickly? Could not find it but watching JR turn their trains was a dance in beauty. ,It is a slow clean or by the end of the day Amtrak cars would be filthy.


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## Mailliw (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm assuming Amtrak will go with fixed bidirectional seating for the NER trainsets like VIA does. I don't see them wanting to have crews to physically turn seats around at termini. Hopefully they'll take the opportunity to increase club seating with tables.


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## Andrew (Jun 12, 2021)

Will Amtrak use Venture Coaches for The Springfield Shuttle?


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## jis (Jun 12, 2021)

west point said:


> This quick turning of Amtrak trains will never happen. How will it ever clean the cars quickly? Could not find it but watching JR turn their trains was a dance in beauty. ,It is a slow clean or by the end of the day Amtrak cars would be filthy.


Since Brightline had no problem turning their trains in half an hour I don't see why Amtrak would be unable to turn them in around an hour. They already manage to do so with the Acelas for some turns in Washington DC. Basically it is just a question of how many people they assign to do the necessary work items and whether that is sufficient for the available time.

In any case merely not tying up tracks to pull the train out to a wye or a balloon track to turn it and then bring it back to the station in itself will be a huge saving in resource/facility use and higher paid staff use, not to mention tyoing up congested interlocking tracks at the throat of the station..

And yes, there will not be any seats to turn AFAICT. It will just be toilets and trash. And if a train is used for say one and a half round trip between Washington and Boston, one may not even need to do a honey wagon dump before it goes back to the yard at the end of the day.


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## Cal (Jun 12, 2021)

Surfliners are turned in 30 minutes, even after an 8 hour ride.


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## west point (Jun 14, 2021)

I have to wonder if WASH , NYP and BOS have trackside potable water and sewer connections for quicker turnings.


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## OBS (Jun 14, 2021)

west point said:


> I have to wonder if WASH , NYP and BOS have trackside potable water and sewer connections for quicker turnings.


Only a few tracks in Wash. DC..... NYP used to but were closed/removed to save costs. Bos has nothing in the station.


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## Andrew (Jun 16, 2021)

Would using diesel--catenary Charger locomotives with the new Venture coaches likely be cheaper to operate than running Venture coaches and switching locomotives?


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## JontyMort (Jun 16, 2021)

Andrew said:


> Would using diesel--catenary Charger locomotives with the new Venture coaches likely be cheaper to operate than running Venture coaches and switching locomotives?


I don’t think anyone has managed to produce an electro-diesel with enough power in diesel mode. Usually it is “last mile” stuff.


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## jis (Jun 16, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> I don’t think anyone has managed to produce an electro-diesel with enough power in diesel mode. Usually it is “last mile” stuff.


Ahem! I guess you are yet to run into NJ Transit's ALP45-DP then...









Bombardier ALP-45DP - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Interestingly, the other Electro-diesel in the NY area, the MNRR and Amtrak P32ACDM, albeit third rail electric, is primarily a diesel engine which can sort of putter along in electric mode. Though theoretically they can run at upto 60mph, in reality they are run in electric mode as little as possible - essentially a few tunnel miles at the beginning or end of journey in New York. They can do 110moh in diesel mode.


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## west point (Jun 17, 2021)

Third rail electric / diesels just pull too many amps at even 750 volts much less at 600 volts. 12 Kv much less amps and that is why they work but 3rd rail does not.


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## JontyMort (Jun 17, 2021)

jis said:


> Ahem! I guess you are yet to run into NJ Transit's ALP45-DP then...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that is the other way round from what one might expect - as you suggest, it’s the electric mode that is “last mile”. The third-rail electro-diesels in the UK were quite powerful on the juice - 2,500 hp - but only 750 hp on the generator.


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## JontyMort (Jun 17, 2021)

west point said:


> Third rail electric / diesels just pull too many amps at even 750 volts much less at 600 volts. 12 Kv much less amps and that is why they work but 3rd rail does not.


It doesn’t happen any more - thank goodness - but before the high speed line from London to the Channel Tunnel was built the Eurostars were on DC in England. If there was any serious attempt at power draw you could almost see the third rail melting. This was particularly so on the secondary route via Maidstone, where there was a nasty climb out of Ashford at somewhere between 1% and 2%.


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## lordsigma (Mar 27, 2022)

Some details were recently made available on how they’re currently thinking of implementing the dual mode power. It sounds like the current course of design is towards a modified Charger providing the propulsion at one end and a coach cab car on the opposite end (with the front end/cab designed to mirror the cab of the Charger). It sounds like the current thought is for a business/auxiliary power car to be on the locomotive end and the locomotive facing end of this car will act as an electric power supply for the Charger. Looks like they’re currently considering having both the pantograph for NEC operations and batteries in this power compartment so possibly just one standard version of the trainset for both the NEC and Empire Service but of course still early that could still change. So when running on the NEC, power collected from the catenary on the business car would then be directed via bus bars to the Charger locomotive. Then instead of an engine change at Washington or New Haven you simply fire up the diesel prime mover in the Charger and lower the pantograph. Big benefit will be allowing the Pennsylvanian to operate electric between Philly and Harrisburg.


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## joelkfla (Mar 27, 2022)

lordsigma said:


> Some details were recently made available on how they’re currently thinking of implementing the dual mode power. It sounds like the current course of design is towards a modified Charger providing the propulsion at one end and a coach cab car on the opposite end (with the front end/cab designed to mirror the cab of the Charger). It sounds like the current thought is for a business/auxiliary power car to be on the locomotive end and the locomotive facing end of this car will act as an electric power supply for the Charger. Looks like they’re currently considering having both the pantograph for NEC operations and batteries in this power compartment so possibly just one standard version of the trainset for both the NEC and Empire Service but of course still early that could still change. So when running on the NEC, power collected from the catenary on the business car would then be directed via bus bars to the Charger locomotive. Then instead of an engine change at Washington or New Haven you simply fire up the diesel prime mover in the Charger and lower the pantograph. Big benefit will be allowing the Pennsylvanian to operate electric between Philly and Harrisburg.


Is this a common arrangement in some parts of the world? To wit, having a power car supply electricity to a diesel-electric's traction motors, bypassing the diesel? Or is it breaking new ground?


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## west point (Mar 30, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> Is this a common arrangement in some parts of the world? To wit, having a power car supply electricity to a diesel-electric's traction motors, bypassing the diesel? Or is it breaking new ground?


Many countries use 1 CAT PAN to provide power to several cars by a power bus the whole length of train. Each car has equipment to operate their own traction motors (inverters). That keeps the lead cars to only have same weight on tracks as rest of train. Power is supplied by a common bus. FRA does not allow that on trains at present Multiple powered cars only way it would work in USA is have each pair of cars with pan. HSR has problems with wire harmonics with multiple PANS.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2022)

west point said:


> Many countries use 1 CAT PAN to provide power to several cars by a power bus the whole length of train. Each car has equipment to operate their own traction motors (inverters). That keeps the lead cars to only have same weight on tracks as rest of train. Power is supplied by a common bus. FRA does not allow that on trains at present Multiple powered cars only way it would work in USA is have each pair of cars with pan. HSR has problems with wire harmonics with multiple PANS.


FRA allows a power bus spanning the train if it is articulated. That is how the Acela 21s are set up.


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## Andrew (Apr 1, 2022)

lordsigma said:


> Some details were recently made available on how they’re currently thinking of implementing the dual mode power. It sounds like the current course of design is towards a modified Charger providing the propulsion at one end and a coach cab car on the opposite end (with the front end/cab designed to mirror the cab of the Charger). It sounds like the current thought is for a business/auxiliary power car to be on the locomotive end and the locomotive facing end of this car will act as an electric power supply for the Charger. Looks like they’re currently considering having both the pantograph for NEC operations and batteries in this power compartment so possibly just one standard version of the trainset for both the NEC and Empire Service but of course still early that could still change. So when running on the NEC, power collected from the catenary on the business car would then be directed via bus bars to the Charger locomotive. Then instead of an engine change at Washington or New Haven you simply fire up the diesel prime mover in the Charger and lower the pantograph. Big benefit will be allowing the Pennsylvanian to operate electric between Philly and Harrisburg.



So then the modified Charger locomotives will be diesel locomotives--instead of true dual-modes--such as NJ Transit's locomotives.


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## lordsigma (Apr 9, 2022)

The five year plans have a little more information - the business power car will indeed have an electrically powered truck in addition to relaying power to the locomotive’s traction motors. In electrified territories the two will work together to provide the desired acceleration while operating on the NEC.


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