# Discontinued Amtrak Route You Want Revived.



## amtrakadirondack

Choose The Discontinued Amtrak Route You Want To See Revived.


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## Steve4031

I want to see the North Coast Hiawatha, the Lone star, and the National Limited revived too.


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## Bill Haithcoat

I checked the Floridian.


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## seajay

I voted with my heart for the Black Hawk since it would be the closest for me to utilize. I suppose if I voted with my head, I would go for the Desert Wind, at least the Los Angeles to Las Vegas portion.

seajay


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## Superliner Diner

Good poll topic! I voted for the Desert Wind, because it simply makes sense to provide _some_ rail service to our oldest and most famous casino city. And I want to see not just Los Angeles - Las Vegas, but service onward to Salt Lake, Denver, and Chicago.


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## EmpireBuilderFan

Boy, this was a tough choice! I picked the North Coast Hiawatha because I'd like to see train service into Billings, Montana, which is Montana's biggest city, but I'd also like to see the Desert Wind, the Pioneer, and the Floridian reinstated as well.


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## P40Power

I chose the Montrealer because like Seajay, its the route closest to me. Hey I wouldnt mind seein ALL of these routes reinstated though


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## Amfleet

I said Floridian as that would surely get well patronized. Though I would also like to see train service to Cape Cod, commuter/MBTA service would be fine.


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## sutton8596

not knowing as much about Amtrak as you guys, I was wondering if the Floridian has any real chance of being brought back into use? I would think from a financial point of view that it's a train that would be used!

Scott


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## gswager

I would choose part of Desert Wind (LAX to Las Vegas) because it has the biggest potential to boost the morale on Amtrak, if a lot of gamblers are taking trains instead of driving on I-15.


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## Viewliner

Definitely the Floridian, I feel it has potential, provided you run Daily Service. From what I've heard, even the worst delays were better than the Capitol Limited/Silver Service connection today. I think it should Run: Chicago-Indy-Louisville(The people deserve decent service after fixing up the rail station)-Nashville-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Orlando(Split into TPA section, and MIA Section), and then to TPA/MIA. Would help increase service in Florida.

I think the Sunset Limited also should get an extension to Miami, as it could work well (Should also be made daily).

I agree about the Desert Wind and the Pioneer, those trains should be revived and made daily. Would help compliment the planned (Eventual) LA-LV Talgo, also provide service between CHI-LV again. The Pioneer would also be a good route. What would be really good is if there were a way (enough equipment, etc.) to run the train Through to NY (Direct NYP-LV-LA Service)

Montrealer also sounds good.

I'd add a fourth Silver Service train, the Silver Comet (not historically accurate, but fits in with Silver Service), which would run via the FEC, and leave the Three existing trains on their current routes (restore the _Silver Palm_ too), rather than screwing around with sections (not to mention loss of MIA-ORL service). I would probably add a JAX-TPA (via ORL) section to the Silver Comet, to increase service to TPA.

Here's how it would come together:

1. Repair all "repairable" Superliners, restore the Cardinal to Superliner Equipment.

2. Restore the _Silver Palm_, complete with Sleeper and Diner.

3. Order: Viewliner Equipment (First! Use to add sleepers to existing routes, replace all other non-Viewliner equipment on Single Level trains, and add new service), then Superliner III equipment (Use to Make Cardinal and Sunset Limited Daily, plus enough to support New Routes)

4. Add New Routes, including an extension of the _Silver Meteor_ to Boston, which there is definitely a market for, providing Direct BOS-ORL-MIA Service. Also give the Three Rivers an Diner (and New equipment), rename to Broadway Limited.


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## amtrakadirondack

keep posting and voting i hope more with vote, i sure more people will, its only been one day.


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## amtrakadirondack

Keep posting and voting I hope more with vote, I sure more people will, it’s only been one day.


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## tp49

I believe Las Vegas is the largest metropolitan area outside of Phoenix without Amtrak service. It's high time it returned.


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## amtrakadirondack

I'm glad so many people are posting in my poll; I wish I could have posted all of the discontinued trains, because I just received every Amtrak travel planner, route guides, and schedules from May 1, 1971 (the day Amtrak was created) to 2002! My mom hunted them down for my birthday, even though my birth was last October, but she explained that it took about one year to get every thing, from the route guides to dining car menus. I now have every Amtrak name! So I will create a new poll about every two - two three weeks depending on my schedule 7th grade is not easy, but I fell lucky I’m not High School Senior or a College student, look for a new poll soon!


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## amtrakflyer

The Pioneer and Desert Wind...they could even run the Pioneer only 2X a week..better then what we have now...


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## Bill Haithcoat

Viewliner, I now agree with you that Silver Comet would be a good name for a FLorida train, though I have years of unlearning, it having been a NY-ATl-BHM train, all my younger impressionable life.

In addition to a restored Floridian, one of my pet desires is the Sunset Limited daily and all the way to Miami as you said.


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## Viewliner

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Viewliner, I now agree with you that Silver Comet would be a good name for a  FLorida train, though I have years of unlearning, it having been a NY-ATl-BHM train, all my younger impressionable life.
> 
> In addition to a restored Floridian, one of my pet desires is the Sunset Limited daily and all the way to Miami as you said.


Thank you for your thoughts here, its nice to have support from the members on my ideas. I know what you mean about the Silver Comet, that's of course why I put "(not historically accurate, but fits in with Silver Service)."


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## Bill Haithcoat

Then, as to the Sunset Limited, it, under Amtrak, was the FIRST truly coast to coast full length train ever.

Back in the"good old days" there were many through sleepers, various routes., across country.......but Amtrak's putting the Sunset all the way to Miami was the first FULL SIZE train to go coast to coast. It has been a big blow to me to lose that.


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## carknocker51

The more service from the midwest to Florida the better.....


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## Viewliner

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Then, as to the Sunset Limited, it, under Amtrak, was the FIRST truly coast to coast full length train ever.
> 
> Back in the"good old days" there were many through sleepers, various routes., across country.......but Amtrak's putting the Sunset all the way to Miami was the first FULL SIZE train to go coast to coast. It has been a big blow to me to lose that.


I agree, I wish it still went to Miami too.


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## steve_relei

I voted for the Pioneer for a number of reasons. It was a good train with excellent scenery and history and I know it well. I liked riding it. Of course, there is the problem that there is no direct connection from Portland's Union Station. A back-up move--straight away across the Steel Bridge onto the UP north-south line, backwards onto the line toward the Albina Yards, then forward onto the Sullivan's Gulch (Graham) line and then eastward. It seems like an involved process but probably the best solution.

I am also for a return of the North Coast Hiawatha. I lived along the route and grew to love it. It was one of the most scenic train rides in the country. However, there can be no routing over Homestake Pass to Butte, as that line is now out of service. The train would have to go through Helena and Mullan Pass. That is a pretty nice ride, too, according to pictures I have seen of the area. Helena is the capital of Montana, and that could be important. Another interesting twist: since the Empire Builder is now serving the ex-GN route between Spokane and Seattle, perhaps we can get the Hiawatha onto the ex-NP line through Pasco and Yakima. In Pre-Amtrak days, the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited were combined into one train between Chicago and St. Paul. Amtrak could do that again.

In Spokane, the GN cars would be switched onto the SP&S line to Portland. The NP cars would be added on in Pasco. Now, however, since both the Builder and Hiawatha would serve the same station, the switching can be done at one station. One of the things we lamented about the Hiawatha when we had it was that it did not provide the direct connection to Portland as was the case pre-Amtrak (NP and SP&S). I think it would be great to be able to go from Billings to Portland in the same coach/sleeper (if not exactly the same train). There should be a connection from both trains at Spokane to Portland.


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## AlanB

Two weeks are up, last chance to vote!


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## Allen Dee

I voted for the Desert Wind.

I refuse to go to Las Vegas again until one of the two happen:

1. Train service is re-established between Los Angeles and Las Vegas.

2. The construction projects on the I-15 corridor are completed.

My only hope is that option # 1 happens before option # 2.


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## jccollins

The Las Vegas! has my vote (proposed name for the proposed Talgo service between Los Angeles and Las Vegas).

I don't know if the market exists for running service from Las Vegas to Denver, but I know it does from Los Angeles to Las Vegas!


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## piedpiper13

Definitely the *Desert Wind* and the *Pioneer* with returning the Miami - Orlando section back to the *Sunset Limited* B) B)


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## railohio

How 'bout a a revival of the _Floridian_ with two northern sections to serve a Chicago and Detroit? Sections could be combined in Cincinnati with one following the route of the Cardinal to Chicago and the other traveling up CSX's Toledo Subdivision to serve Toledo, Detroit, and maybe Flint.


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## Bill Haithcoat

Good idea, because there was service from Detroit,Cleveland, Buffalo and other great lakes cities in the past, as distinct from service from Chicago. Names like Royal Palm. Ponce de Leon, Southland and Flamingo were involved with such service.

The Royal Palm and Ponce de Leon went via Chattanooga and Atlanta.

The Southland and Flamingo went via Knoxville and Atlanta.


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## amtrakadirondack

Hi! I'm glad everyone is so into the poll I created. I’m glad so many people have voted. And the results are....................... The Floridian, which took 1st, with 38.71% of the votes, the Desert Wind, which took 2nd and almost reached the Floridian, with 35.48% of the votes, and finally the Pioneer, which took 3rd, with 12.90% of the votes. I picked the Floridian, but I wish they all could be revived. Well hopefully one day they will. 

 Thanks, 

 Amtrakadirondack


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## steve_relei

I would also love to see Denver to Texas train service restored. It never was since Amtrak took over, but the CB&Q operated such a train for many years.


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## railpost

I know that this now is an old topic however I did find it on a google search of discontinued trains. Even though I do want most of the trains reinstated because they should have never been discontinued and most of the discontinued trains should have been restored a long time ago, I will have to choose the Floridian.

My choice of the Floridian is with a modified route as in 1978/79 Amtrak management had been looking into rerouting it through Atlanta Georgia and had they received the necessary funding they would have rerouted it through Atlanta Georgia.


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## Blackshirt Husker

Desert Wind or Three Rivers


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## norfolkwesternhenry

Arrowhead, I would use this route several times a year, I have a mountain bike race in duluth this year, and will need to drive, bleah.


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## Bob Dylan

Super Chief and Broadway Ltd.


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## Gulfwind2

As far as I can tell, The Floridian route has the most viable under/un-served passenger markets in the whole country. That would be even more true if the route would use the CSX trackage between Nashville and Atlanta.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Gulfwind2 said:


> As far as I can tell, The Floridian route has the most viable under/un-served passenger markets in the whole country. That would be even more true if the route would use the CSX trackage between Nashville and Atlanta.


I believe the 5 biggest unserved markets are Phoenix, Las Vegas, Columbus, Nashville, and Louisville.

This route could serve 2 of those while also adding service to mid sized cities such as Macon and Chatanooga. In addition, it would increase frequency CHI-IND and JAX-MIA while connecting the major markets of Florida, Atlanta, and Chicago.


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## west point

A replacement for the Floridian whatever route thru ATL is going to face the harsh realities of equipment. To be operationally feasible expect 5 or 6 train sets to cover the service. this is due to the slow running of CHI - Ohio river and slow Ohio river - ATL. ATL- MIA will be 16 hours at best based on old timetables

Equipment ? Amtrak certainly does not have Superliners available and single level equipment would be short diners and sleepers and maybe lounges. Now if Amtrak can order their hoped for 600 single level cars then ???


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## unitedstatesfan

Isn't one omission from the list the restoration of the LD Amtrak train between New Orleans and Jacksonville?

Amktrak recently had its own special train visit stations along this route that lost their Amtrak train in 2005. The special train was met by many, and featured in a recent edition of the Amtrak (in house?) magazine or newsletter.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

unitedstatesfan said:


> Isn't one omission from the list the restoration of the LD Amtrak train between New Orleans and Jacksonville?
> 
> Amktrak recently had its own special train visit stations along this route that lost their Amtrak train in 2005. The special train was met by many, and featured in a recent edition of the Amtrak (in house?) magazine or newsletter.


This thread was started in 2003, 2 years before that route was suspended.


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## neroden

Now, the top priority is obviously the Three Rivers/Broadway Limited.


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## JeanA

I didn't know there was a route that went through Wyoming - was wondering why I couldn't get there from here :-/


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> unitedstatesfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't one omission from the list the restoration of the LD Amtrak train between New Orleans and Jacksonville?
> 
> Amktrak recently had its own special train visit stations along this route that lost their Amtrak train in 2005. The special train was met by many, and featured in a recent edition of the Amtrak (in house?) magazine or newsletter.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread was started in 2003, 2 years before that route was suspended.
Click to expand...




neroden said:


> Now, the top priority is obviously the Three Rivers/Broadway Limited.


Obviously a lot has changed since the original thread.

If I had voted back in 2003, I'd probably have said Floridian. Even today, despite everything I say the Floridian would give you access to two new markets you don't have now (Louisville and Nashville). It's back to the "economies of scale" argument. You have all of the tracks/stations to restart the BL/TR today and that's not the case for the Floridian or "SL East". But you don't really gain any new markets. If I had to choose between the Floridian and the Gulf Coast, I'd probably say Gulf Coast because it helps better connect the South (and if it comes in the form of the CONO extension, there's your Floridian, although without Louisville and Nashville).

I'm not completely sold on the National Limited despite it serving Philly. I'm not sure if going to STL/KCY is that big a deal for me (although losing Columbus, Ohio from the Amtrak system was bad).

To me, the Lone Star wassn't just San Antonio to Laredo, it was serving Wichita (still no service today), Oklahoma City (just Heartland Flyer), and providing direct service from CHI to HOS (which still doesn't exist today although it did with the Texas Eagle split in the 90's). When discussing an East Coast to Texas route, usually through Meridian is the first thought. But I wonder if going from Houston up through the old Lone Star route to STL, then the old National Limited route to NYC or WAS would be viable (you'd get back Columbus and IND-STL as well).

The other I'd have an interest for would be the Desert Wind or at the very least something that serves Vegas. I'm not a big fan of the Northwest so I have no interest in the NCH or Pioneer coming back.


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## Seaboard92

My vote is the Floridian. It would give the benefit of added service on two corridors (I consider JAX-MIA a LD Corridor) and bring in several new markets. But it's very hard with the L&I railroad between Indy and Louisville having a very slow running speed despite recent improvements. It might actually be faster to run via CIN and take the L&N back to Louisville from there. Of course you also could go directly south on NS but miss Louisville and Nashville which would hurt the train some.


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## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> My vote is the Floridian. It would give the benefit of added service on two corridors (I consider JAX-MIA a LD Corridor) and bring in several new markets. But it's very hard with the L&I railroad between Indy and Louisville having a very slow running speed despite recent improvements. It might actually be faster to run via CIN and take the L&N back to Louisville from there. Of course you also could go directly south on NS but miss Louisville and Nashville which would hurt the train some.


The thing most likely to happen in the way of Chicago - Florida service as things stand, is the extension of the CONO to Orlando.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Darn, you can't change your vote--I changed my mind after looking at old pictures of the Floridian--yes, that one would be lovely to have back!


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## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Darn, you can't change your vote--I changed my mind after looking at old pictures of the Floridian--yes, that one would be lovely to have back!


Just start another vote with the contemporary state of affairs and vote on it. Web pages and discussion threads are going really cheap these days :;


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Let's ignore the obvious how much it costs and the argument over whether federal or state money would be used. How about the track conditions of these old lines and if any of the old stations on the lines still exist? There has been plenty said about the Floridian route but how about the National Limited or Lone Star among others? Are any of them worth pursuing that wouldn't cause the Amtrak budget to skyrocket (other than the BL/TR of course which has most if not all of the infrastructure in use right now)?


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## Devil's Advocate

Whatever might be brought back today would be extremely easy to retire again during the next budget fight negotiation. If I'm going to wish for something it would be continued funding of what remains today. Still kind of iffy but at least it's based on something that's reasonably achievable.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Whatever might be brought back today would be extremely easy to retire again during the next budget fight negotiation. If I'm going to wish for something it would be continued funding of what remains today. Still kind of iffy but at least it's based on something that's realistically achievable.


Not necessarily. Now you can actually get rid of Byrd Crap.


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## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Let's ignore the obvious how much it costs and the argument over whether federal or state money would be used. How about the track conditions of these old lines and if any of the old stations on the lines still exist? There has been plenty said about the Floridian route but how about the National Limited or Lone Star among others? Are any of them worth pursuing that wouldn't cause the Amtrak budget to skyrocket (other than the BL/TR of course which has most if not all of the infrastructure in use right now)?


So you want us to discuss without considering cost what may be practical without causing the Amtrak budget to skyrocket? Do you see the obvious contradiction in that requirement you just stated?

Anyhow, the route from Indy to St. Louis has fine track condition to operate a passenger train. The route from Kansas City to Fort Worth to operate the Lone Star (or the erstwhile Texas Chief pre-Amtrak) at least upto Fort Worth is just fine.

Actually the original BL ex-Pennsy route via Fort Wayne, is not really easy to use anymore at all. The original TR route on ex B&O via Yougnstown, Akron, Garrett and Nappanee is pretty much in the same shape as when the BL was moved to it, and later the TR was placed on it.


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## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever might be brought back today would be extremely easy to retire again during the next budget fight negotiation. If I'm going to wish for something it would be continued funding of what remains today. Still kind of iffy but at least it's based on something that's realistically achievable.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. Now you can actually get rid of Byrd Crap.
Click to expand...

Since we all choose to ignore your crazy idea about that, rest assured it won't happen


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## Seaboard92

After the Conrail split the ex PRR west of Creatline is controlled by CSX who then leased it to a shortline. But I hear NS has trackage rights and has pumped money into it as a relief valve for their ex NYC main. So it might be coming up in the world.


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## WoodyinNYC

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever might be brought back today would be extremely easy to retire again during the next budget fight negotiation. If I'm going to wish for something it would be continued funding of what remains today.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. Now you can actually get rid of Byrd Crap.
Click to expand...

Give it a break. Cannibalism is not helpful.


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## railiner

Of all those routes, I like the idea of restoring the Floridian the most....it just seems to "fill in" a major populated part of the country that is currently lacking Amtrak service the most...


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## alang

I am going to have some fun with this. Perhaps a route from Los Angeles to Denver via Las Vegas (The Gambler) could be the most profitable. Selfishly, I would like a route from Omaha to Kansas City (The T Bone.) Just dreaming about a route to Key West (the Flagler.) Honestly, I would be happy with with the addition of any route in addition to what we already have.


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## SarahZ

The Niagara Rainbow and the International Limited!


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## CCC1007

The North Coast Hiawatha so long as the Empire Builder remains intact. I would suggest to the state governments along the route to purchase the necessary equipment to operate the route independent of the other routes and require Amtrak to use the state supplied equipment whenever possible.


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## jis

alang said:


> I am going to have some fun with this. Perhaps a route from Los Angeles to Denver via Las Vegas (The Gambler) could be the most profitable. Selfishly, I would like a route from Omaha to Kansas City (The T Bone.) Just dreaming about a route to Key West (the Flagler.) Honestly, I would be happy with with the addition of any route in addition to what we already have.


All that we will get out of the erstwhile Flagler outfit, now known as the Fortress Group and its various subsidiaries including AAF is service between Miami, Orlando, and eventually Jacksonville and possibly even Tampa/St. Pete. Nothing south of Miami unfortunately. Tri Rail might some day go as far south as Homestead. But that would be it. No Key West.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> alang said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to have some fun with this. Perhaps a route from Los Angeles to Denver via Las Vegas (The Gambler) could be the most profitable. Selfishly, I would like a route from Omaha to Kansas City (The T Bone.) Just dreaming about a route to Key West (the Flagler.) Honestly, I would be happy with with the addition of any route in addition to what we already have.
> 
> 
> 
> All that we will get out of the erstwhile Flagler outfit, now known as the Fortress Group and its various subsidiaries including AAF is service between Miami, Orlando, and eventually Jacksonville and possibly even Tampa/St. Pete. Nothing south of Miami unfortunately. Tri Rail might some day go as far south as Homestead. But that would be it. No Key West.
Click to expand...

I wish Amtrak could at least provide a bus connection to Key West. Both trains arrive MIA too late for the last Greyhound of the day.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

The route still exists but any discussion of "discontinued" service should also include Phoenix.


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## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> The route still exists but any discussion of "discontinued" service should also include Phoenix.


Yup. It does need restoration of the connection from Phoenix to the west. Someone has to find the money for it.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The route still exists but any discussion of "discontinued" service should also include Phoenix.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. It does need restoration of the connection from Phoenix to the west. Someone has to find the money for it.
Click to expand...

Once the connection is restored PHX-LAX could support multiple daily corridor trains plus the SL.


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## west point

A daily sunset might give supporters enough push to the POLS to support restoring PHX <> Yuma.


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## norfolkwesternhenry

CCC1007 said:


> The North Coast Hiawatha so long as the Empire Builder remains intact. I would suggest to the state governments along the route to purchase the necessary equipment to operate the route independent of the other routes and require Amtrak to use the state supplied equipment whenever possible.


 would the NC Hiawatha run through Bozeman?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> would the NC Hiawatha run through Bozeman?


Assuming the same route, yes.

This was a 1979 schedule for the NC Hiawatha (and the EB at the time): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0043..

So assuming the same route, yes.


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## Palmetto

I'll weigh in for the _Floridian._ It serves cities with significant populations.


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## CCC1007

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> 
> would the NC Hiawatha run through Bozeman?
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming the same route, yes.
> 
> This was a 1979 schedule for the NC Hiawatha (and the EB at the time): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0043..
> 
> So assuming the same route, yes.
Click to expand...

The only deviation required is skipping butte for Helena, as the homestake pass line is out of service.


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## jis

One might want to take the opportunity to also restart service through Stampede Pass. When the NCH was running it ran through Stevens Pass, the route currently followed by the EB, and the EB used to run through Stampede Pass, which currently has no service. The State of Washington at times has made noises of reintroducing through Stampede Pass from Seattle to Spokane.

The journey through Homstake Pass down into Butte was quite spectacular. It can sort of be experienced in spirit by driving down Interstate 90 into Butte these days. I have no idea how it is to cross Mullen Pass, which is the route of the Helena to Missoula MRL line.


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## Palmetto

I wonder how the BNSF would feel about running a passenger train again on Stampede Pass. The route has been used lately to run eastbound empty coal and grain trains. A westbound passenger train on it may be like a salmon swimming upstream.


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## jis

Palmetto said:


> I wonder how the BNSF would feel about running a passenger train again on Stampede Pass. The route has been used lately to run eastbound empty coal and grain trains. A westbound passenger train on it may be like a salmon swimming upstream.


I am sure they will work on extracting their pound of flesh from WasDOT before allowing any such.


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## bmjhagen9426

As for the North Coast Hiawatha, what about rerouting portions of the route to have the NCH run thru SD instead of ND? Those people in northern SD would benefit from this realignment, as well as adding another state to the national network. I picked Pioneer instead of NCH or other ones because picking the Pioneer means adding a state (WY) to the network, as well as bringing service to Idaho population centers (so two birds, one stone with the Pioneer). Of course other routes should be reinstated (such as the National Limited, the Lone Star, the Floridian, the Sunset Limited east of NOLA and the Arizona realignment, the Desert Wind, and the North Coast Hiawatha), but the Pioneer wins due to the possibility of adding a state to the network.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

If you want to count states, I wouldn't consider Kentucky part of the Amtrak network. Two very tiny markets, both over 3 hrs away from Louisville. Lexington is over 2 hrs away from S. Portsmouth.


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## norfolkwesternhenry

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> If you want to count states, I wouldn't consider Kentucky part of the Amtrak network. Two very tiny markets, both over 3 hrs away from Louisville. Lexington is over 2 hrs away from S. Portsmouth.


 Idaho currently has ONE stop in the middle of the night, so I wouldn't count Idaho either


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## bmjhagen9426

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to count states, I wouldn't consider Kentucky part of the Amtrak network. Two very tiny markets, both over 3 hrs away from Louisville. Lexington is over 2 hrs away from S. Portsmouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Idaho currently has ONE stop in the middle of the night, so I wouldn't count Idaho either
Click to expand...

That is why I prefer to have the Pioneer restored. Not only it adds more Idaho stops, but it is a good thing for Eastern Oregonians as well (as they did not see a train service since 1997). Kentucky and New Hampshire have four stops each, and Tennessee and Delaware have two each (as of April 6, 2015).


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

I'd favor the Pioneer over the North Coast Hiawatha because you can run it as through cars with the CZ and split at either Denver or SLC and it gives a one seat ride from Denver to the Pacific Northwest. If you can have a way for the NCH and EB to run together for some miles I might change my mind. But I think running another 2000 mile train from CHI to SEA/PDX is a complete waste of money which can be better spent elsewhere.

As for states, I'll bet most of Kentucky (based on population) would trade in their four irrelevant stops for one in Louisville. Someone said to me the LSL stops in Erie. Erie is as far away from Philly as possible in the state (6 hrs, over 400 miles). Richmond, VA is closer. Boston is closer. And PA is probably in the bottom half of states in terms of area. Imagine a big western state. You just clip one of the corners of the state and you could be even farther away from the other corner. So the goal should not be to serve as many states as possible but to serve as many people as possible.


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## west point

Philly Amtrak Fan IMHO is on the correct track ( pun intended ). Serve as many persons as possible. Actually take that statement further serve the most persons who would ride a train and bring in the most revenue over costs.. With limited assets Amtrak serves the NEC with a lot of passengers that pay much more per mile than most LD routes.

The NY - CHI. CLT - NY, CHI - STL, CHI - MSP, San Diego - Sacramento, PDX - SEA markets are examples. Not thru some wilderness with few potential passengers.


----------



## Eric S

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I'd favor the Pioneer over the North Coast Hiawatha because you can run it as through cars with the CZ and split at either Denver or SLC and it gives a one seat ride from Denver to the Pacific Northwest. If you can have a way for the NCH and EB to run together for some miles I might change my mind. But I think running another 2000 mile train from CHI to SEA/PDX is a complete waste of money which can be better spent elsewhere.


It would be possible to operate the EB and NCH as a combined train over their western and/or eastern ends, perhaps between CHI and FAR on the east and SEA/PDX and SPK on the west, if that's what was desired.

(I'm not arguing in favor of that, just pointing it out as a possibility. If, for whatever reason the NCH was to be restored, I'd rather than it operate separately so as to provide a second daily train on the more heavily populated western and eastern sections of their routes. Again though, this would be VERY far down my list of priorities for expansion.)


----------



## Seaboard92

The other option would be to make the North Coast Limited (sorry I hate the North Coast Hiawatha name) would be to rub it as a separate train between CHI-STP and just run it out of CHI in the late evening and make it a night train to STP. There might be some market for that. That or run it out around 12 and push the Builder back an hour or two.


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## railiner

If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....


----------



## jphjaxfl

railiner said:


> If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....


And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.


----------



## railiner

jphjaxfl said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....
> 
> 
> 
> And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.
Click to expand...

I wasn't really considering where the funding would come from....this whole thread is really just a "wish list" with perhaps a few exceptions, as far as future new service...


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jphjaxfl said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....
> 
> 
> 
> And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.
Click to expand...

Great, another meddling senator from an irrelevant state forcing a train to nowhere on us and taking away money that could be spent on a better route. Wasn't the LSL cancelled around the same time and wasn't restarted until New York agreed to subsidize the train? Can you imagine Amtrak today with the NCH instead of the LSL today (and knowing Congress, no BL either)?



railiner said:


> I wasn't really considering where the funding would come from....this whole thread is really just a "wish list" with perhaps a few exceptions, as far as future new service...


I'd rather wish for service that will gain significant ridership. How many relevant markets do you gain by running the NCH that isn't already served by the EB?


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....
> 
> 
> 
> And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Great, another meddling senator from an irrelevant state forcing a train to nowhere on us and taking away money that could be spent on a better route. Wasn't the LSL cancelled around the same time and wasn't restarted until New York agreed to subsidize the train? Can you imagine Amtrak today with the NCH instead of the LSL today (and knowing Congress, no BL either)?
Click to expand...

Well, the LSL was not part of the original Amtrak system because they chose the Broadway Limited as the New York - Chicago train. Arguably, the success of the LSL together with the loss of the Fort Wayne line eventually led to the demise of the Broadway Limited. This is a case of what happens when one state stands up and supports a train for their state while another one snoozes and pisses away their train. PA was given a chance to provide some support for the continuance of the train through Pittsburgh, and they of course kindly declined, so the train went away. They also consistently declined supporting a second train between PHL and PGH, and the result is of course predictable.

The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down. If it were otherwise the Lone Star would still be ariound and the Texas Eagle long gone and forgotten.


----------



## JayPea

Philly, I think the people of Montana might disagree about their state being irrelevant. And I'm not usually prone to doing this but why the need to insult the entire population of a state or region??? And as the NCH ultimately serves Seattle, I don't think you can accurately charachterize it as a "train to nowhere".


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down.


I'm not pretending there isn't any political interference, I'm saying there is and that's the problem with Amtrak. If Amtrak let people who actually understand business make decisions they would be in much better financial shape (still not profitable but better than what we have now).



jis said:


> The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down. If it were otherwise the Lone Star would still be ariound and the Texas Eagle long gone and forgotten.


I never understood why the Texas Eagle was chosen above the Lone Star. The PM/TM for the Lone Star was almost twice the then Eagle: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66476-passenger-miles-per-train-mile-metric/. And why would senators in Texas favor one over the other? The only reasonable explanation would be Arkansas. Meanwhile, you've screwed Kansas and Oklahoma.


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reality is that every train in the Amtrak system is a political creation, and they live or die by politics. Pretending that there is some decision making procedure within Amtrak that is independent of political interference is just being an Ostrich with head stuck in sand, deep down.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not pretending there isn't any political interference, I'm saying there is and that's the problem with Amtrak. If Amtrak let people who actually understand business make decisions they would be in much better financial shape (still not profitable but better than what we have now).
Click to expand...

It is not within Amtrak's ability to do anything of the sort since its Board is entirely a political creation. The sooner you internalize this unfortunate fact the better you will be able to handle the rest of the reality of Amtrak. 

Actually this is generally true of all government run rail systems in the world, not just Amtrak. You have not seen political interference and its true face until you look behind the history of some truly bizarre trains that are run by the Indian Railways for example.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis pretty well summed it up but as pertains to the Texas Eagle vs. the Lone Star, there was a very influential Senator from Texas named Kay Bailey Hutichison that actually helped save Amtrak as well as the Texas Eagle!. ( our other Senator was an empty suit just like the current two!)

Lots of us wanted the Lone Star to continue ( old Santa Fe Texas Chief Route)since it served the DFW area ( Ft Worth but not Dallas) and had a Houston section from FTW, but since Oklahoma and Kansas didn't get involved it went poof!

The Texas Eagle ran through East Texas on the route of the old Mopac Eagle skipping the DFW stops.( from Longview via Taylor to Austin and on to San Antonio) It also connected with the NdeM's Aztec Eagle in Laredo, Texas which continued on to Mexico City using old Mopac Equipment including a Diner,Sleepers and Dome Car!I took this trip several times.

Political deals and trade-offs are how our system is supposed to work and calling US Senators representatives of Podunk States isn't realistic. ( Mike Mansfield, D-Montana,was the Senate Majority Leader and of course the Cardinal's protector,Senator Byrd, was Chairman of the Appropriations Committee and also a Majority Leader in the Senate, Powerful Positions!)

You could look it up!


----------



## jis

JayPea said:


> Philly, I think the people of Montana might disagree about their state being irrelevant. And I'm not usually prone to doing this but why the need to insult the entire population of a state or region??? And as the NCH ultimately serves Seattle, I don't think you can accurately charachterize it as a "train to nowhere".


Indeed. In addition it takes a lot of gall or ignorance to characterize Yellowstone National Park as "nowhere" too.


----------



## JayPea

jis said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Philly, I think the people of Montana might disagree about their state being irrelevant. And I'm not usually prone to doing this but why the need to insult the entire population of a state or region??? And as the NCH ultimately serves Seattle, I don't think you can accurately charachterize it as a "train to nowhere".
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. In addition it takes a lot of gall or ignorance to characterize Yellowstone National Park as "nowhere" too.
Click to expand...

The 4,000,000+ visitors to Yellowstone in 2015 certainly don't think it's "nowhere" either.


----------



## Seaboard92

I would also classify Chicago the eastern end point not a "nowhere either" that or the Broadway Limited would be a train to Nowhere. What is one mans nowhere is another mans somewhere.


----------



## CCC1007

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they did restore the North Coast Limited, I would rather it travel a completely different route from the EB....I would like to see it revert to its original route...The Burlington Route from Chicago to St. Paul via East Dubuque, and from Spokane to Seattle via Yakima....
> 
> 
> 
> And the funding will come from where? In the early 1970s when the North Coast Hiawatha was started, Montana had a very influential Senator named Mike Mansfield that was able to resurrect the Southern Montana route which had only been gone for a year. Now there has been no passenger train service through Southern Montana for 37 years and there is no champion in Washington to find the $.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Great, another meddling senator from an irrelevant state forcing a train to nowhere on us and taking away money that could be spent on a better route. Wasn't the LSL cancelled around the same time and wasn't restarted until New York agreed to subsidize the train? Can you imagine Amtrak today with the NCH instead of the LSL today (and knowing Congress, no BL either)?
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't really considering where the funding would come from....this whole thread is really just a "wish list" with perhaps a few exceptions, as far as future new service...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd rather wish for service that will gain significant ridership. How many relevant markets do you gain by running the NCH that isn't already served by the EB?
Click to expand...

Hey! In my opinion your pet project is irrelevant as most of your state has FREQUENT service! The NCH would serve five of the seven large towns in Montana, as well as the more populated areas of North Dakota and provide a second frequency on a very busy section of the builders route! I usually bite my tongue when you propose adding the three rivers back at the expense of the cardinal, but this is simply a thread about hypothetical additions, so the NCH is a valid route, and I thought my proposal to have the states purchase the necessary equipment for the service is reasonable, and it is something you should think about proposing in your plans as well, as it would allow new routes without axing other routes.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

When we fall into cannibalizing one train to feed equipment to others, we have fallen into the trap of doing the haters' work for them.

No cutbacks! Only growth!

Let's concentrate on ordering replacements for all the single-level cars to start, for the bi-levels soon after, and hundreds of 'extra' cars to expand the map with restored and new routes.

Let's have the politicians scramble to get new services thru their states and districts using the hundreds of 'extra' cars.

But cutbacks, no. You'll have all the success of Sears and Kmart with a policy of yearly cutbacks. hboy:

The cure for what ails Amtrak is more and better Amtrak.


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## jis

Woody, I like the way you think!


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## WoodyinNYC

Seaboard92 said:


> The other option would be to make the North Coast Limited (sorry I hate the North Coast Hiawatha name)


Terrible names. Terrible. We already have _Hiawatha_ trains near the Lake Michigan West Coast. So the North Coast? Where's that? It not our north-most train, because the _Empire Builder_ sticks closer to the Canadian border.

Given the geography and history of the route, perhaps we should call it the _Sacajawea_? Anyway, nominations are in order. All entries will be judged as better than "North Coast Hiawatha".


----------



## CCC1007

WoodyinNYC said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other option would be to make the North Coast Limited (sorry I hate the North Coast Hiawatha name)
> 
> 
> 
> Terrible names. Terrible. We already have _Hiawatha_ trains near the Lake Michigan West Coast. So the North Coast? Where's that? It not our north-most train, because the _Empire Builder_ sticks closer to the Canadian border.
> Given the geography and history of the route, perhaps we should call it the _Sacajawea_? Anyway, nominations are in order. All entries will be judged as better than "North Coast Hiawatha".
Click to expand...

How about "Mainstreeter"


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## jis

If you must steal a train name from the Milwaukee Road you could use the _Olympian _referring to the Olympian Peninsula of course.


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## Seaboard92

Most of the route of amtraks NCH was actually the ex NP. So the north coast limited would be the name. Just because that was their flagship on the route. And then the mainstreeter was its secondary rub


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## jis

However, it was the Mainstreeter that traveled via Helena and via Mullens Pass as any restored service on the southern tier of Montana would. The North Coast Limited traveled via Butte and Homestake Pass, which is currently out of service.


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## railiner

The original NP name "North Coast Limited", had nothing to do with its running along the Northern part of the country....rather it referred to its destination--Portland and Seattle both being on the North end of the US West Coast....

As to the Amtrak name "North Coast Hiawatha"....that was a way to include its new routing from Chicago to St. Paul on the Milwaukee Road, rather than its former routing on the Burlington.

Along that vein, I had always thought that a more appropriate name for Amtrak's original "San Francisco Zephyr", would have been "Overland Zephyr"....combining its route on the Overland Route (SP-UP Oakland to Denver), and the Way of the Zephyr's, from Denver to Chicago....


----------



## neroden

CCC1007 said:


> Hey! In my opinion your pet project is irrelevant as most of your state has FREQUENT service!


Sorry, you're wrong about this. Pennsylvania has MUCH more urgent service needs than *anything* in Montana. I give you as examples:* Bethelehem - Allentown

* Scranton - Wilkes Barre

These two metro areas together have more population than the *entire state of Montana*. Neither has intercity train service.

And it would be significantly cheaper to restore train service to these locations (both of them!) than to operate the North Coast Hiawatha.

Sadly, the rural voters of "Pennsyltucky" have prevented improvements in rail service anywhere in Pennsylvania for decades. The population dynamics have *finally* shifted enough that this deadlock has been broken (with Act 89 of 2013 as evidence). So we may finally see some long-overdue improvements... if we push hard for them.

It's really, really hard to care about service to Butte (where my mother grew up!) or Helena when you can't get to Columbus Ohio or Allentown PA by train.

I mean, sure, if you can get state funding for it, go for it. Good luck. But I strongly want federal funding to go either to:

-- the highest *national* priorities, which is to say the *biggest* cities with no service or terrible service;

or to

-- the most financially beneficial routes so that the profits can be used to add *yet more routes later*.

It's a question of priorities. Eventually we need it all. But if we spend money on Allentown (for example), I think it'll generate money which can be used to pay for other routes like NCH later. The same is unfortunately not true of spending money on NCH now.

I want Amtrak to focus first on increases in service which have a financial profile like Lynchburg service.  I think there are several of these available.


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## Seaboard92

And soon to be extended from LYH to Roanoke


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## MARC Rider

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I'd rather wish for service that will gain significant ridership. How many relevant markets do you gain by running the NCH that isn't already served by the EB?


Um, Billings, Bozeman, Butte, Missoula, more or less all of the major population centers of the state, with the exception of Helena and Great Falls.
A few years ago I took a trip to Yellowstone National Park(ing lot) by rail. It involved getting off the EB at Harvre, renting a car, and spend the night in Great Falls and Bozeman before driving into the Park. It would have been nice to get off a train in Livingston or Bozeman instead.


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## jis

Well you won't get Butte any more. You will get Helena instead. No rails in service through Homestake Pass anymore. You have to go by Mullens Pass and hence through Helena. But not bad hitting another Capital city.


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## JayPea

I certainly understand the point that as a practical matter, having service to places such as Phoenix, Columbus, and Louisville, to name three, would serve many more people than would those in Southern Montana. But the title of the thread, after all, is what discontinued route you WANT to see revived, not which route would benefit the most people.  And I am still troubled by the notion that the state of Montana doesn't count for anything. Maybe not to someone living in their ivory tower in Philadelphia, but the million people living in Montana think they're significant.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

JayPea said:


> And I am still troubled by the notion that the state of Montana doesn't count for anything. Maybe not to someone living in their ivory tower in Philadelphia, but the million people living in Montana think they're significant.


We have around 1.5 million in Philly alone.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/032714_Census_Philadelphia_population_grows_again_but_rate_slows.html

Over 6 million in the Philly metro area alone.


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## Bob Dylan

Well Philly, take a look @ Phoenix,Nashville,Columbus,Ohio and

Louisville with Zero Amtrak Trains!

And Houston,San Antonio,Austin and DFW all with More People in the SMSA than Philly and only 1 Amtrak LD Train, in the Case of Houston only 3 times a Week!

The Prosecution Rests!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Bob Dylan said:


> Well Philly, take a look @ Phoenix,Nashville,Columbus,Ohio and
> 
> Louisville with Zero Amtrak Trains!


Never said they shouldn't have trains. In fact, you forgot this post:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66538-largest-metros-without-amtrak-service-how-to-serve-them/



Bob Dylan said:


> And Houston,San Antonio,Austin and DFW all with More People in the SMSA than Philly and only 1 Amtrak LD Train, in the Case of Houston only 3 times a Week!


Again, I don't disagree they shouldn't have more trains. I have been on record saying Texas should have more trains as well. I have said I want to extend the Heartland Flyer to Dallas and Houston and I want to have a Dallas to San Antonio through car branch to a rescheduled Sunset Limited.

I hope by now most if you realize I am not just looking out for Philly. I want to see trains to serve areas with larger populations because in general it leads to higher ridership and revenue. If you want to fantasize about a bunch of trains, that's great. I'd like to have a train go from my backyard to Los Angeles as well. But if Amtrak does have a budget, you have to have priorities. Yes, if I have a choice between a train between Chicago and Pennsylvania vs. Chicago and Montana, I'd choose PA every time. Not just because I live there but because a lot more people live there. If we can have both, I don't mind. But where are we going to get the money from?


----------



## jis

But using your principle of serving population you should also choose to cancel the Empire Builder and reroute it via the southern route, since all the population centers are on the southern route. but then all those fewer people served on the current route who have no other public transport would lose out. So I don;t think that principle espoused by you is as black and white, at least in my mind.

Besides as far as Pennsylvania goes there are several trains between Chicago and Pennsylvania. Of you mean Philadelphia when you say Pennsylvania, don;t you?


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> But using your principle of serving population you should also choose to cancel the Empire Builder and reroute it via the southern route, since all the population centers are on the southern route. but then all those fewer people served on the current route who have no other public transport would lose out. So I don;t think that principle espoused by you is as black and white, at least in my mind.


It's pretty damn close. The Empire Builder route has several advantages because there's no interstate highway (whereas the North Coast Hiawatha route does have one), so there's less competition. This is a genuine advantage, the same thing which makes Vermont's Western Route punch above its population-based weight. (And incidentally... a reason a train to Ithaca would get more passengers than population alone would predict.) The national park traffic compensates somewhat for the lack of population.
Despite this, the higher population on the North Coast Hiawatha route means that it got nearly as many passengers as the Empire Builder when it last ran. So really population is a very solid predictor of ridership even with extenuating factors favoring the other route. Honestly, if the NCH had been kept and the Empire Builder dropped, I think the discussions would be quite similar and the ridership quite similar.

Specifically, the "gravity model" (city 1 pop)^2 * (city 2 pop)^2 / distance^2 is generally better at predicting ridership between two cities on a network than most of the more complicated models. (Network connectivity remains highly important because it means there are more possible city pairs; a divided network will lose a lot of possible city-pairs. This is my main reason for believing that the western transcons must stay intact, and it applies to Sunset East as well.)

If you look at the gravity model and consider where expansion is most desirable, the "3C" route in Ohio pops out as very important. I will never forgive that ass Kasich for cancelling it. Actually having a station in Phoenix, and daily service LA-Phoenix-Tucson, also becomes obviously a high priority. And Dallas-Houston is also clearly very important. (As well as connecting the huge cities on the southern border of Texas: McAllen and Brownsville.) But that's three states controlled by road warrior types, and I don't know how to break through the politics. Nobody can seem to figure out how to oust that ass Kasich from Ohio, and nothing will happen until he's gone. I keep watching Arizona, because both Phoenix and Tucson have built local rail, but apparently the state government is still hostile to intercity rail. And Texas seems hopeless for years to come.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> But using your principle of serving population you should also choose to cancel the Empire Builder and reroute it via the southern route, since all the population centers are on the southern route. but then all those fewer people served on the current route who have no other public transport would lose out. So I don;t think that principle espoused by you is as black and white, at least in my mind.


Well in the case of EB vs. NCH, there is the PM/TM data from Brock Adams' report so at least that data makes an argument for the EB vs. the NCH: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66476-passenger-miles-per-train-mile-metric/


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## jphjaxfl

The reason the Empire Builder route was chosen by Amtrak orginally was because of the lack of alternative highways and public transportation along US 2 which parallels most of the route.


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## jis

Yup. My point was often there are factors other than population along the route. Seems like people mostly agree.


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## neroden

Perhaps it's the Anglo bias on English-speaking forums, but nobody ever seems to discuss trains to Brownsville or McAllen much. Obviously current Texas politics makes both highly unlikely, but when I ran down the list of metro areas looking for where service was most needed, they popped out very clearly.

The existing railroad lines are suboptimal. A line from Houston - Bay City - Corpus Christi which splits at Harlingen into branches to McAllen (all the way to Rio Grande City) and Brownsville might be the best. Or perhaps a line from San Antonio-Corpus Christi-Harlingen-McAllen/Brownsville. Maybe the area could be served by a single station in Harlingen, to start with. Or, really, brand new ROWs might be best. But none of this will happen until Texas politics changes. (If the border wasn't auch a political issue, of course, the trains should really go all the way to Reynosa and Matamoros.)

Looking again at the current status, I'd say the ideal short-term win would be to extend the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Corpus Christi and Harlingen. Though the alternative of extending it back to Laredo is also attractive, Laredo is a lot smaller.


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## jis

I think originally the Inter-Ameican went to Laredo to connect to the then existing FdeM passenger service from Laredo to Mexico City. Who know if there will ever be such a service. So re-targeting to Brownsville would make more sense, but would probably require more investment, than to just restore to laredo, since the international freight exchange still happens at Laredo AFAICT.


----------



## west point

An example of poor roads but high population between cities is the Lynchburg <> WASH. Look how successful that new train has become. The same way extending to Roanoke is another relative poor highway,


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I think originally the Inter-Ameican went to Laredo to connect to the then existing FdeM passenger service from Laredo to Mexico City. Who know if there will ever be such a service. So re-targeting to Brownsville would make more sense, but would probably require more investment, than to just restore to laredo, since the international freight exchange still happens at Laredo AFAICT.


Laredo does take freight trains across the border:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Mexican_Railway_International_Bridge

But Brownsville has international freight train exchange as well, and in fact recently built a new, replacement international bridge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville_%26_Matamoros_International_Bridge

http://www.governing.com/topics/transportation-infrastructure/gov-texas-mexico-bridge.html

Now is the time to strike -- the old rail line to the border runs through downtown Brownsville, and this is the perfect time to buy it for passenger rail use, just after freight moves to the new bridge. Unfortunately, nobody's even thinking about such things. :-(


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## Bob Dylan

Mexico doesn't have any money to pay for it because they'll be paying for a Wall if Trump wins!


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## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Mexico doesn't have any money to pay for it because they'll be paying for a Wall if Trump wins!


A foot high wall should not cost that much. Afterall he didn't say how high 

If you want to see a really operative border fence for keeping terrorists out, take a look at the fence along the India Pakistan border with guard posts, motion detectors, exceedingly brightly lit at night, which is a sight to behold from any flight passing overhead, as do the nonstop flights between Newark and Delhi.


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## Bob Dylan

Not to mention the DMZ on the Korean Border that separates the South from the North!(it's to keep the Northerners from leaving, similar to the Berlin Wall back in the Cold War Days!)


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## Maglev

I guess I am in a majority here, favoring the _ Floridian._ I believe an Auto-Train consist would be successful would be successful on this route.


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## FormerOBS

Maglev said:


> I guess I am in a majority here, favoring the _ Floridian._ I believe an Auto-Train consist would be successful would be successful on this route.


It's probably an exaggeration to say you could drive that distance twice in the time it would take the train to get there, but not a big exaggeration. There is no intact single-carrier direct rail route diagonally across the Appalachians. The most direct existing routes would use more than one carrier, rather than having the advantage of a single carrier. Much of the existing trackage would not permit the kind of speed required for any reasonable schedule. You add mileage (and time) if you go around. The Auto Train Company's demise can be attributed to a number of factors. I believe the expansion into the Midwest market was one of those factors. It might be possible to create a through routing for service between Chicago and Florida, but I suspect the way to do that is via a Chicago-New Orleans service, linked to a New Orleans-Florida service, or something similar. Putting automobiles on such a service would probably be prohibitively expensive because of the mileage, enroute switching, etc.

If you can figure out a way to surmount these hurdles, more power to you!

Tom


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## Seaboard92

One problem the Floridian would have now is the route from Chicago to Louisville. South of Louisville to Nashville and on to JAX is relatively decent minus the fact that route is CSX and very busy as well. But excluding that part Louisville to Indianapolis is a shortline railroad with a very low track speed. It almost would be faster to operate via CIN. If it's going to take an extra few hours due to bad track. Might as well detour to another large city and have equal time with a longer route.


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## neroden

My secret plan for the Floridian involves convincing Kentucky that they really want a train from Indianapolis to Nashville, and getting them to pony up to buy and improve the tracks. Once that's done, I think the Floridian becomes more possible.

But that won't be plausible until the Hoosier State route is made much faster. On the whole I doubt people from Louisville are going to Indianapolis; more would be going to Chicago.

Baby steps...


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> One problem the Floridian would have now is the route from Chicago to Louisville. South of Louisville to Nashville and on to JAX is relatively decent minus the fact that route is CSX and very busy as well. But excluding that part Louisville to Indianapolis is a shortline railroad with a very low track speed. It almost would be faster to operate via CIN. If it's going to take an extra few hours due to bad track. Might as well detour to another large city and have equal time with a longer route.


So would that be CHI-IND-CIN-Louisville-Nashville-ATL-JAX-ORL-MIA?


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## Thirdrail7

Since the Montrealer (or some version of it) has a good chance of returning, I'm voting for the Cape Codder. However, I want it running out of NYP again. I wouldn't even be against it starting West or South of NYP.


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## jis

I am sure people from Philadelphia want to go to Cape Cod


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## Seaboard92

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One problem the Floridian would have now is the route from Chicago to Louisville. South of Louisville to Nashville and on to JAX is relatively decent minus the fact that route is CSX and very busy as well. But excluding that part Louisville to Indianapolis is a shortline railroad with a very low track speed. It almost would be faster to operate via CIN. If it's going to take an extra few hours due to bad track. Might as well detour to another large city and have equal time with a longer route.
> 
> 
> 
> So would that be CHI-IND-CIN-Louisville-Nashville-ATL-JAX-ORL-MIA?
Click to expand...

 That would be my ideal route. I almost thought about making it a late evening like LSL departure time out toward Indy giving a daylight arrival to and from CIN which should get it down to the Atlanta area in daylight. Then night time to JAX as its eight hours of slow running from ATL-JAX. Then I would change the Silver Star schedule to being later in the day taking the old Meteor card out of New York when it left around six. Giving Columbia, and Savannah daytime service and a afternoon departure south of JAX. I would try and push the Meteor a bit to put some distance between the Florida trains. Basically making JAX-MIA a corridor and the Chicago train takes TPA off the star. And the star drops TPA


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

neroden said:


> My secret plan for the Floridian involves convincing Kentucky that they really want a train from Indianapolis to Nashville, and getting them to pony up to buy and improve the tracks. Once that's done, I think the Floridian becomes more possible.
> 
> But that won't be plausible until the Hoosier State route is made much faster. On the whole I doubt people from Louisville are going to Indianapolis; more would be going to Chicago.
> 
> Baby steps...


I got a better secret plan: Convince Amtrak/Congress to fully fund this train without state support. It would be more than 750 miles. Otherwise, Congress should just come out and say we're not going to fund any new trains, 750 miles or not.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

If trackage north of Louisville is too bad currently for passenger services, than there could be two day trains out of Atlanta. One to Louisville via Chattanooga and Nashville and one to Florida. When trackage is improved, then one long distance train over the entire route could be operated.


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## jis

I suspect the trackage away from Atlanta could be improved quicker that getting adequate infrastructure in place in Atlanta to handle anything beyond the current once a day each way Crescent.

In short, forget about Chicago to Florida service through Atlanta if you want it to happen before the 22nd Century, by when Florida will be partly under the waves, and people will be packing up and moving elsewhere. So the whole thing will be moot  And I say this as a Floridian. 

OTOH, Chicago to Florida service via NOL appears to be quite feasible within a decade.


----------



## railiner

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One problem the Floridian would have now is the route from Chicago to Louisville. South of Louisville to Nashville and on to JAX is relatively decent minus the fact that route is CSX and very busy as well. But excluding that part Louisville to Indianapolis is a shortline railroad with a very low track speed. It almost would be faster to operate via CIN. If it's going to take an extra few hours due to bad track. Might as well detour to another large city and have equal time with a longer route.
> 
> 
> 
> So would that be CHI-IND-CIN-Louisville-Nashville-ATL-JAX-ORL-MIA?
Click to expand...

Indianapolis to Louisville via Cincinnati sure seems roundabout...

If the direct route from IND to Louisville is no longer viable, then wouldn't it be better to route from CIncinnati to Atlanta via Knoxville?


----------



## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One problem the Floridian would have now is the route from Chicago to Louisville. South of Louisville to Nashville and on to JAX is relatively decent minus the fact that route is CSX and very busy as well. But excluding that part Louisville to Indianapolis is a shortline railroad with a very low track speed. It almost would be faster to operate via CIN. If it's going to take an extra few hours due to bad track. Might as well detour to another large city and have equal time with a longer route.
> 
> 
> 
> So would that be CHI-IND-CIN-Louisville-Nashville-ATL-JAX-ORL-MIA?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indianapolis to Louisville via Cincinnati sure seems roundabout...If the direct route from IND to Louisville is no longer viable, then wouldn't it be better to route from CIncinnati to Atlanta via Knoxville?
Click to expand...

I thought routing it that way would make sense as then we add Louisville, and Nashville to the national network. And both of those have a larger population. But the NS south to Knoxville wouldn't be bad as well. It is well maintained, has a decent track speed. And it tends to be a very directional railroad with most southbound and northbound running marker to marker as a fleet.


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## railiner

Isn't there also a CSX route from CIN to ATL?


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## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> Isn't there also a CSX route from CIN to ATL?


How round about do you want to go. Could go down the old Clinchfield to Spartanburg SC, to Greenwood then to Atlanta. Or go via Nashville.


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## neroden

I tend to look at routes which are owned by shortlines, because they're much more comfortable with selling the track to the state cheaply, and I really believe we're better off with state-owned track most of the time. This depends, of course, on a state which is willing to put in real money (like Massachusetts), as opposed to a state which refuses to spend a penny (like Georgia).


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## Metra Electric Rider

Indy-Chicago really needs corridor service (yeah, yeah, I know, Indiana's gotta pay). It would have to be faster than driving, have good arrival times and be reliable. I-65 is busy and there is a lot of traffic between the city as well as the cities in between. Once you had that, Louisville and Cincinnati would be right behind in demanding service. Then a Florida/southern bound train could happen with no crazy conniptions.

Isn't the Cape Codder revived in at least spirit by MBTA (i.e. rail to the cape at the very least)?


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## jis

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Isn't the Cape Codder revived in at least spirit by MBTA (i.e. rail to the cape at the very least)?


Yeah. Only in the sense that there is a train going to Hyannis. The original Cape Codder was a New York to Cape Cod service via Providence.The current service is an entirely within Massachusetts service from Boston to Hyannis.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

If Atlanta is a mess and needs to be avoided, how about the old Floridian route through Birmingham and Montgomery, AL?

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790429&item=0041

If we're going to serve Louisville/Nashville with a federally funded train, it has to be >=750 miles so the Chicago-Florida train is the only legitimate possibility. Otherwise you're asking KY/TN to contribute.

And if Indy-Louisville is so bad, what did the Kentucky Cardinal use?

I've thought about Chicago-Florida both via Louisville/Nashville vs. via New Orleans (CONO extension). The L&N option adds two new cities to Amtrak but with the Gulf Coast train it would help Southern travel a lot. You can then travel from California/Arizona/Texas to Florida without heading north to Chicago or Washington DC (although until they fix the schedule, you'd still have to spend overnight in NOL).


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

If Atlanta is a mess and needs to be avoided, how about the old Floridian route through Birmingham and Montgomery, AL?

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790429&item=0041

If we're going to serve Louisville/Nashville with a federally funded train, it has to be >=750 miles so the Chicago-Florida train is the only legitimate possibility. Otherwise you're asking KY/TN to contribute.

And if Indy-Louisville is so bad, what did the Kentucky Cardinal use?

I've thought about Chicago-Florida both via Louisville/Nashville vs. via New Orleans (CONO extension). The L&N option adds two new cities to Amtrak but with the Gulf Coast train it would help Southern travel a lot. You can then travel from California/Arizona/Texas to Florida without heading north to Chicago or Washington DC (although until they fix the schedule, you'd still have to spend overnight in NOL).


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## WICT106

Another option would be to go Chicago-- Cincinnati-- Birmingham-- Montgomery-- Bainbridge, GA-- Tallahassee, FL. I don't know how long the schedule would be, though.


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## Anthony V

The Kentucky Cardinal used the Louisville and Indiana railroad and was restricted to 30 mph on that segment. We all know how well that worked out lol. OTOH, believe it or not, those same tracks are being upgraded as part of a partnership between the L&I and CSX.

More information in this link: https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/media/press-releases/stb-approves-louisville-indiana-track-upgrade/


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## Seaboard92

I believe service via Nashville and Chat might serve the south just as well actually. New markets and the entire state of TN has horrible service, and Kentucky isn't doing that much better. But none of the southern states have good connections like the northeast.


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## railiner

Seaboard92 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't there also a CSX route from CIN to ATL?
> 
> 
> 
> How round about do you want to go. Could go down the old Clinchfield to Spartanburg SC, to Greenwood then to Atlanta. Or go via Nashville.
Click to expand...

My old Rand McNally RR Atlas shows an L&N route from CIN to ATL that looks more direct than the Southern Railway....doesn't even have to go thru Chattanooga.

Whether it still exists, I have no idea.... :unsure:


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## Seaboard92

Oh your talking about the route via Etowah. That is a difficult like to describe. The part of the line from Etowah TN to Copperhill/Mccaysville TN/GA is owned by the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum and is maintained up to 45 mph in places I believe. But has a lot of speed restriction curves. South of the state line it's owned by the Georgia Northeastern Railroad which is now a Patriot Rail property. It is an active tourist railroad from Mccaysville to Blue Ridge. Out of service exempted track from Blue Ridge to Elijay. Then it's active all the way to the Atlanta area.


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## neroden

So this is interesting. The consensus seems to be: on the southern end, the tracks are good (with multiple possible routes) but the political will is nonexistent. On the nothern end, the tracks are a mess *and* the political will is lacking.

Given the existence of Chicago, I think the northern end is a more profitable area to advocate.


----------



## A Voice

neroden said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! In my opinion your pet project is irrelevant as most of your state has FREQUENT service!
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, you're wrong about this. Pennsylvania has MUCH more urgent service needs than *anything* in Montana. I give you as examples:* Bethelehem - Allentown
> 
> * Scranton - Wilkes Barre
> 
> These two metro areas together have more population than the *entire state of Montana*. Neither has intercity train service.
> 
> And it would be significantly cheaper to restore train service to these locations (both of them!) than to operate the North Coast Hiawatha.
> 
> Sadly, the rural voters of "Pennsyltucky" have prevented improvements in rail service anywhere in Pennsylvania for decades. The population dynamics have *finally* shifted enough that this deadlock has been broken (with Act 89 of 2013 as evidence). So we may finally see some long-overdue improvements... if we push hard for them.
> 
> It's really, really hard to care about service to Butte (where my mother grew up!) or Helena when you can't get to Columbus Ohio or Allentown PA by train.
> 
> I mean, sure, if you can get state funding for it, go for it. Good luck. But I strongly want federal funding to go either to:
> 
> -- the highest *national* priorities, which is to say the *biggest* cities with no service or terrible service;
> 
> or to
> 
> -- the most financially beneficial routes so that the profits can be used to add *yet more routes later*.
> 
> It's a question of priorities. Eventually we need it all. But if we spend money on Allentown (for example), I think it'll generate money which can be used to pay for other routes like NCH later. The same is unfortunately not true of spending money on NCH now.
> 
> I want Amtrak to focus first on increases in service which have a financial profile like Lynchburg service.  I think there are several of these available.
Click to expand...

You are largely correct, and frankly passenger rail advocacy efforts are much too broad and lack focus. Most people understandably concentrate on train service for their region though they usually support nationwide efforts. While we (desperately) need to have priorities (such as the _City of New Orleans_ extension which has momentum we cannot afford to lose) it is also vital to have concrete plans for lower priority markets, because it is going to be very hard even to get advocates - let alone the general populace - in Montana and elsewhere interested in new trains for Pennsylvania if all they have is vague hints that maybe, possibly there might be some sort of North Coast Hiawatha service sometime in the distant future.

It should be pointed out, however, that a long distance passenger train such as the North Coast Hiawatha (NCH) serves more than just a few metropolitan areas. It is very difficult to make a valid comparison between one or two large cities in Pennsylvania and the entire route of the NCH; All markets combined certainly have the greater population, but then how many people in Chicago are headed to Montana? Further, there are also geographic considerations. An unserved or poorly served locale in the Northeast is still relatively close to an active passenger train route compared to southern Montana and many other regions of the country.



Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> But where are we going to get the money from?


The exact same place(s) we get the money to build roads, schools, prisons and other infrastructure. Every single time a proposal is put forth for passenger rail expansion, the discussion gets shot down - by rail advocates, no less - by the issue of funding. Which is certainly a legitimate question (and the real problem and solutions are, of course, political), but at the same time the answer is obvious; The issue of funding lies primarily with Congress. Perhaps more specifically, we should be asking how we convince a (usually hostile) legislative body that a particular service expansion should be a funding priority.



FormerOBS said:


> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I am in a majority here, favoring the _ Floridian._ I believe an Auto-Train consist would be successful would be successful on this route.
> 
> 
> 
> It's probably an exaggeration to say you could drive that distance twice in the time it would take the train to get there, but not a big exaggeration. There is no intact single-carrier direct rail route diagonally across the Appalachians. The most direct existing routes would use more than one carrier, rather than having the advantage of a single carrier. Much of the existing trackage would not permit the kind of speed required for any reasonable schedule. You add mileage (and time) if you go around. The Auto Train Company's demise can be attributed to a number of factors. I believe the expansion into the Midwest market was one of those factors. It might be possible to create a through routing for service between Chicago and Florida, but I suspect the way to do that is via a Chicago-New Orleans service, linked to a New Orleans-Florida service, or something similar. Putting automobiles on such a service would probably be prohibitively expensive because of the mileage, enroute switching, etc.
> 
> If you can figure out a way to surmount these hurdles, more power to you!
> 
> Tom
Click to expand...

The big speed advantage for long distance trains comes from the need, in many cases, to make an overnight stop (or numerous "pit stops", perhaps) when driving. In such a case, then no, you cannot drive the distance faster. Every situation is different; There are going to be some cases in the Northeast Corridor when you can drive and beat Acela (or flying) too.

To say "there is no intact single-carrier direct rail route diagonally across the Appalachians" puts *way* too many unecessary qualifiers on the requirement! As already discussed, there are several potentially viable routes. Indeed, many long distance trains are neither single railroad lines or completely direct routings.


----------



## railiner

Seaboard92 said:


> Oh your talking about the route via Etowah. That is a difficult like to describe. The part of the line from Etowah TN to Copperhill/Mccaysville TN/GA is owned by the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum and is maintained up to 45 mph in places I believe. But has a lot of speed restriction curves. South of the state line it's owned by the Georgia Northeastern Railroad which is now a Patriot Rail property. It is an active tourist railroad from Mccaysville to Blue Ridge. Out of service exempted track from Blue Ridge to Elijay. Then it's active all the way to the Atlanta area.


I was talking about the route via Knoxville, Etowah, and then Cartersville (not via Blue Ridge)....

The route of the former Flamingo

http://www.american-rails.com/flamingo.html


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## west point

There is no combination much less single carrier of rail routes either active or abandoned that can support much 79 MPH running south of the OHIO river except in west Tennessee. The glaciers cut deep valleys close together in a NE - SW direction and had effects from Columbus, Ms. - Tuscaloosa - south of Birmingham - Auburn - Columbus, Ga, - Macon, Ga. - Augusta - Columbia - Charlotte - East of Greensboro / Danville/ Charlottesville - West of DC. Since rail building even after the Civil War in the south had to follow the least expensive construction costs just traversing these mountains had to find what few passes available.

So rail miles thru these areas are much longer than as a crow flies. Evansville - Nashville fairly good in Ky. but after somewhere in Tn. gets crooked. Louisville Nashville definitely good track but slow. Cincinnati - ATL both L&N and SOU were fairly competitive but both crosses mountains in Ky. Now CSX is talking of at least temporary downgrading CIN - ATL to class 2 ( 25 MPH ). The NS (SOU) route has had continuing upgrades CIN - CHA by the city of CIN so how much faster NS could now traverse the route is unknown. However any Nashville or CIN route thru CHA will have the difficulty of approaching and departing CHA over and thru mountains. Then over 3 Hours CHA - ATL and then either CSX to Manchester or NS to Macon before grades and track speeds can improve.

Note these mountains even slow the Crescent which takes ~ 18:00 for 30 miles more than Meteor & Palmetto"s ~ 15:00 to Savannah. Mountains always mean slower.


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## Ryan

A Voice said:


> The big speed advantage for long distance trains comes from the need, in many cases, to make an overnight stop (or numerous "pit stops", perhaps) when driving. In such a case, then no, you cannot drive the distance faster. Every situation is different;


Well, yes. But in this particular situation, driving wins hands down. The train took 39 hours to get from Chicago to Miami. According to the Google (which in my experience is conservative), it's a 20 hour drive. Obviously you aren't going to drive it straight through (unless you team drive), but even two 10 hour driving days with 10 hours of rest in the middle gives you a 30 hour trip. You're making it in 3/4 the time, not half the time, but that's still a lot faster (and baked in is the assumption that you're going to be able to bring back the route at the same speed it existed before. Expensive and unlikely).


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Ryan said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> The big speed advantage for long distance trains comes from the need, in many cases, to make an overnight stop (or numerous "pit stops", perhaps) when driving. In such a case, then no, you cannot drive the distance faster. Every situation is different;
> 
> 
> 
> Well, yes. But in this particular situation, driving wins hands down. The train took 39 hours to get from Chicago to Miami. According to the Google (which in my experience is conservative), it's a 20 hour drive. Obviously you aren't going to drive it straight through (unless you team drive), but even two 10 hour driving days with 10 hours of rest in the middle gives you a 30 hour trip. You're making it in 3/4 the time, not half the time, but that's still a lot faster (and baked in is the assumption that you're going to be able to bring back the route at the same speed it existed before. Expensive and unlikely).
Click to expand...

Except in the winter when you can have snow from the Kentucky line up to Chicago, driving slows down and gets more stressful... Last time I drove it there was snow from just outside Chattanooga all the way north (though not on the roads). Going south between Indy and just south of E-town it was icy on 65 (this was on either side of New Years).


----------



## jis

And at the end of the drive you have a car handy in Florida for your stay. It is not like you can get from anywhere to anywhere in Florida without a car.


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## WoodyinNYC

Somehow the revived _Floridian_ or _Flamingo_ or _whatever_ will be *unlike* every present-day Amtrak LD train? I mean, it will have enuff Chicago-Florida riders to matter? Not very likely.

iirc The _Capitol Ltd_ carries about 30% of its riders end to end, the most of any LD train. The others have roughly 15% of all riders make end-to-end trips.

So why sweat the fastest time CHI-FLA?

Any such train will live or die on its ridership CHI-INDY, INDY-Louisville, Louisville-Nashville, Louisville-CHI, Nashville-Indy, etc.

I could easily imagine a train CHI-FLA that carried more riders *within* Kentucky and Tennessee than end to end. Louisville-Frankfort-Lexington-Winchester for one, and Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga for another.

Looking at the _extended CONO/Gulf Coaster_, I expect success: It is not designed to be a CHI-Orlando train, or even a NOLA-Orlando train. It can carry those riders, but they will be less than 15% of the total. Instead, it will carry riders New Orleans-casino coast Biloxi, New Orleans-Mobile, casino coast Biloxi-Pensacola, Tallahassee-Jacksonville, Tallahassee (Florida State)-Lake City (Thruway bus to Gainesville Univ of Florida), Tallahassee-Daytona, etc.

Now we do need to get from CHI to some place that can service the train and turn it around: Miami/Hialeah, Orlando/Sanford, and New Orleans.

And it would be nice to include Atlanta, but several Southern LD trains do quite well without ATL.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

WoodyinNYC said:


> So why sweat the fastest time CHI-FLA?
> 
> Looking at the _extended CONO/Gulf Coaster_, I expect success: It is not designed to be a CHI-Orlando train, or even a NOLA-Orlando train. It can carry those riders, but they will be less than 15% of the total. Instead, it will carry riders New Orleans-casino coast Biloxi, New Orleans-Mobile, casino coast Biloxi-Pensacola, Tallahassee-Jacksonville, Tallahassee (Florida State)-Lake City (Thruway bus to Gainesville Univ of Florida), Tallahassee-Daytona, etc.


Because the fastest time would also mean faster times between cities _en route_ attracting more local riders. Those slow sections cost local riders when other options are far quicker.

I expect it to be a success too.


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## dlagrua

My vote is for the Floridian as there is no direct route From MIA to CHI, the main Amtrak hub. Presently, you would have to take the Silvers to WAS then change for the Capitol Ltd. You would be looking at about 33 hrs of travel time (that includes the lay over of 4 hours at WAS).

Agree that the tracks south of Nashville would need to be upgraded/reactivated but it all comes down to the investment vs the return. IMO a 30 hour trip from CHI-MIA is not unreasonable and many passengers would get off a the 25 hour mark that is Orlando. For an overnight ORL to CHI, not bad. Take a look at the Cardinal and its packed much of the year. From NYP -CHI is about 29 hours. If a new Floridian can stay within 30 hours, I would say that it would be successful and lets not forget that the Floridian was also the mid-west Autotrain. Its had to stop outside of Louisville for quite a while to attach the Autotrain consist that slowed the trip down considerably.


----------



## west point

It certainly would be interesting to know passenger counts Capitol (CHI -- {Cincinnati if that route ] ) <> Star ( from JAX south ). That will give end point ridership that will be almost guaranteed. Intermediate point travel that will be much greater one can only guess. Of course it still is the problem of no available equipment for at least 5 years.


----------



## Cheesesauce

I know it isn't on the list but Detroit to Cincinnati (old Cincinnatian). I had to drive that route for the last decade and lamented seeing the rail going along 75. Ohio is in need of some love (its 11th in population!!) but with the 3C being killed by Kasich I don't know if it will ever happen.

Niagara Rainbow too just because its a pain to have to drive to Toledo to go east.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

The one thing I have never understood (and will probably never understand) is why we keep entertaining the idea of bringing passenger rail back to regions that have made it abundantly clear that they do not support such service. I believe our focus and our energy should be spent on making genuinely pro-rail areas as fast and efficient and enjoyable as possible. Maybe rope in some nearby neutral areas as well when it makes sense. I honestly believe that trying to sell passenger rail to a hostile region where mass transit is seen as a socialist attack on conservative values only serves to impede our primary directive. Obama's early missteps on passenger rail funding ended up giving anti-rail politicians like Scott Walker something tangible to run against and a project they could immediately undermine and subvert once in office. That's a powerful lesson we should remember whenever discussing future initiatives.


----------



## railiner

Devil's Advocate said:


> The one thing I have never understood (and will probably never understand) is why we keep entertaining the idea of bringing passenger rail back to regions that have made it abundantly clear that they do not support such service. I believe our focus and our energy should be spent on making genuinely pro-rail areas as fast and efficient and enjoyable as possible. Maybe rope in some nearby neutral areas as well when it makes sense. I honestly believe that trying to sell passenger rail to a hostile region where mass transit is seen as a socialist attack on conservative values only serves to impede our primary directive. Obama's early missteps on passenger rail funding ended up giving anti-rail politicians like Scott Walker something tangible to run against and a project they could immediately undermine and subvert once in office. That's a powerful lesson we should remember whenever discussing future initiatives.


I think some of us in this thread are simply not taking politics and other circumstances into consideration when proposing bringing back dormant routes. Instead, it is just a "wish list"....nothing more....


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Devil's Advocate said:


> The one thing I have never understood (and will probably never understand) is why we keep entertaining the idea of bringing passenger rail back to regions that have made it abundantly clear that they do not support such service. I believe our focus and our energy should be spent on making genuinely pro-rail areas as fast and efficient and enjoyable as possible. Maybe rope in some nearby neutral areas as well when it makes sense. I honestly believe that trying to sell passenger rail to a hostile region where mass transit is seen as a socialist attack on conservative values only serves to impede our primary directive. Obama's early missteps on passenger rail funding ended up giving anti-rail politicians like Scott Walker something tangible to run against and a project they could immediately undermine and subvert once in office. That's a powerful lesson we should remember whenever discussing future initiatives.


How do you know regions have made it abundantly clear they do not support such service? Just because certain politicians are against it doesn't mean the region is necessarily against it. If they were to flat out vote no on a referendum for service you might have an argument. Even in Ohio just because you vote for Kasich doesn't necessarily mean you're anti train. As much as any of us love trains I would find it hard to believe trains are your #1 issue in electing someone or a deal breaker. I would think there are a lot of different issues to consider when choosing a governor, president, mayor, senator, etc.

I would like to believe that if two populations are roughly equal and have the same level of train service they should have the same amount of interest and ridership. Sure there are other factors (economic level, other options, etc) but I tend to believe that if you build them, they will come.


----------



## A Voice

Devil's Advocate said:


> The one thing I have never understood (and will probably never understand) is why we keep entertaining the idea of bringing passenger rail back to regions that have made it abundantly clear that they do not support such service. I believe our focus and our energy should be spent on making genuinely pro-rail areas as fast and efficient and enjoyable as possible. Maybe rope in some nearby neutral areas as well when it makes sense. I honestly believe that trying to sell passenger rail to a hostile region where mass transit is seen as a socialist attack on conservative values only serves to impede our primary directive. Obama's early missteps on passenger rail funding ended up giving anti-rail politicians like Scott Walker something tangible to run against and a project they could immediately undermine and subvert once in office. That's a powerful lesson we should remember whenever discussing future initiatives.


Which region(s) are these which "have made it abundantly clear" they neither support nor seek rail passenger service, and what criteria are you using to make this determination? As already noted by Philly Amtrak Fan, you cannot judge the desire or need for transit options based on the ideology of political representatives; We've seen time and again the "grass roots" public desire for passenger rail stymied by the lack of leadership and responsiveness of legislatures (Congress) and the executive branch (U.S. President). 

If you are defining "support" as service funded by the states (regions), that idea is a non-starter for interstate service which is properly the domain of the federal government. Very, very few persons actually view mass transit as a "socialist" agenda, but on the contrary, there is abundant ignorance of the utility, purpose, and proper function of passenger rail. Lacking an accurate and full understanding, people tend to think new trains should be "high-speed rail" or nothing, when that generally isn't what the country needs. If we had a dollar for every person who had uttered the wholly mistaken myth that "passenger trains make sense in urban areas where they can compete with airplanes" we could restore the Amtrak routes.


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## railgeekteen

Floridan would be my choice.


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## railiner

Hmmmn....obviously Philly Amtrak Fan did not start this poll....I see a glaring omission in the choices available....


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## Lonestar648

My first choice is not listed, "The Broadway Ltd.", but of the options listed, I would use the Desert Wind the most.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Lonestar648 said:


> My first choice is not listed, "The Broadway Ltd.", but of the options listed, I would use the Desert Wind the most.


It isn't listed because the poll originated in 2003 and at the time the Broadway's successor, the Three Rivers, was still running.


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## railiner

Didn't notice that....then next choice obviously must be the National Limited....


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## ParanoidAndroid

Terre Haute, Indiana!!

Ok, Broadway Limited, or thru cars Cap Ltd. to Pennsylvanian.

Service through Idaho. The old schedules of the Pioneer weren't great, and it was 3 per week, which probably greatly helped in its demise.

Could I also mention the Hilltopper?


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## ParanoidAndroid

ParanoidAndroid said:


> Ok, Broadway Limited, or thru cars Cap Ltd. to Pennsylvanian.
> 
> Service through Idaho. The old schedules of the Pioneer weren't great, and it was 3 per week, which probably greatly helped in its demise.
> 
> Could I also mention the Hilltopper?


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## ParanoidAndroid

Ok, Broadway Limited, or thru cars Cap Ltd. to Pennsylvanian.

Service through Idaho. The old schedules of the Pioneer weren't great, and it was 3 per week, which probably greatly helped in its demise.

Could I also mention the Hilltopper?


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## dlagrua

I could not get the vote in but the Floridian was my choice. Outside of the NE and mid Atlantic Florida is largely disconnected from the US passenger rail system. If you wish to go the Midwest or West you must take an overnight to WAS or PHL, then an additional overnight to CHI and a third or forth overnight going West. This is impractical as it is expensive. A one seat overnight trip to CHI is what Florida needs. IIRC the trip was about as long as the Cardinal but is was a one seat ride. The discontinuance of that route was a huge mistake. That may have been done during the Carter years when numerous routes bit the dust.


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## CCC1007

ParanoidAndroid said:


> Ok, Broadway Limited, or thru cars Cap Ltd. to Pennsylvanian.
> 
> Service through Idaho. The old schedules of the Pioneer weren't great, and it was 3 per week, which probably greatly helped in its demise.
> 
> Could I also mention the Hilltopper?


I wasn’t aware that sandpoint was no longer in Idaho.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## jis

CCC1007 said:


> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, Broadway Limited, or thru cars Cap Ltd. to Pennsylvanian.
> 
> Service through Idaho. The old schedules of the Pioneer weren't great, and it was 3 per week, which probably greatly helped in its demise.
> 
> Could I also mention the Hilltopper?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn’t aware that sandpoint was no longer in Idaho.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

I think he meant the really populated part of Idaho, such as it is


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## dlagrua

jis said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ParanoidAndroid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, Broadway Limited, or thru cars Cap Ltd. to Pennsylvanian.
> 
> Service through Idaho. The old schedules of the Pioneer weren't great, and it was 3 per week, which probably greatly helped in its demise.
> 
> Could I also mention the Hilltopper?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn’t aware that sandpoint was no longer in Idaho.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he meant the really populated part of Idaho, such as it is
Click to expand...

Yes, the loss of passenger service by the Pioneer to Boise, ID was probably what he was referring to. AFAIK the station and tracks are still there.


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## Northeastern292

Every route discontinued since 1971 (taking into account track abandonments since then).

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## Mystic River Dragon

Was there a train years ago that came down from the north and went along Florida's west coast? If so, I'd love to see that one restored. (Or a new one created along that route.)


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## railgeekteen

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Was there a train years ago that came down from the north and went along Florida's west coast? If so, I'd love to see that one restored. (Or a new one created along that route.)


The tracks there are a bit iffy.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Yes, I know, but I was just thinking what I would like--not the practical side of it.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Was there a train years ago that came down from the north and went along Florida's west coast? If so, I'd love to see that one restored. (Or a new one created along that route.)


The Silver Palm was routed between Jacksonville and Tampa via Waldo, Ocala, Wildwood, and Dade City but was discontinued in 2004. This is now a busy CSX freight route.
St. Petersburg and Clearwater had stops for the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Champion, and Floridian before being cut in 1984. This is a lightly used CSX local line that they are trying to sell off.

South of Tampa, two separate line exist; one to Bradenton and Sarasota and another to Fort Myers and North Naples (formerly continuing on to Naples). These routes are owned by CSX and the Seminole Gulf Railway, a small freight and tourist train operator. The line to Bradenton is still somewhat busy for CSX, but the Fort Myers/North Naples line is mostly owned by Seminole Gulf and is lightly used. Neither route has ever had Amtrak service.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Silver Palm was the name I remembered, but not that route. I'm thinking that there was a gentleman who had a railroad on the west coast at about the same time Mr. Flagler had his on the east coast, but that the gentleman on the west coast invested in oranges and there was a terrible freeze and that was pretty much the end of the line (sorry, couldn't resist) for his wealth in Florida, and his railroad and the tracks were abandoned.

Someone who learned Florida history in school might be able to supply the details? I can't remember his name or I would look him up.

Anyway, something that stopped at Clearwater, Sarasota, and Naples would be lovely.


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## brianpmcdonnell17

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Silver Palm was the name I remembered, but not that route. I'm thinking that there was a gentleman who had a railroad on the west coast at about the same time Mr. Flagler had his on the east coast, but that the gentleman on the west coast invested in oranges and there was a terrible freeze and that was pretty much the end of the line (sorry, couldn't resist) for his wealth in Florida, and his railroad and the tracks were abandoned.
> 
> Someone who learned Florida history in school might be able to supply the details? I can't remember his name or I would look him up.
> 
> Anyway, something that stopped at Clearwater, Sarasota, and Naples would be lovely.


Plant is the person most famous for developing the railroads to Tampa, but much of that system still exists. One train serving all three cities you mentioned would be nice, but nearly impossible at present as all three are on separate lines and Naples proper doesn't even have tracks any more. I think the best hope of ever getting service back to Sarasota and Clearwater is via commuter rail, although that is also a long shot given the government. Unlike in Orlando where it is essentially a point along the railroad, Tampa is a hub of freight tracks so the network could become rather large if it was supported. As I mentioned in the last post, CSX is trying to sell the Clearwater/St. Petersburg route (in addition to a route to Brooksville). The track is very roundabout from St. Petersburg to Tampa, but with speed upgrades it could be useful for passengers travelling from Clearwater to either city. The tracks in Clearwater are only a few blocks from the Intercoastal Waterway where ferry service operates to the beach. In my opinion, the best way to operate passenger rail to Pinellas County is by opening commuter rail along CSX tracks and Light Rail along Interstate 275 (with a connection to the newly opened airport train system), which together could serve almost all major population and commercial centers in the area from Downtown Tampa west to the Gulf. If trackage rights could be gained, I think there is also demand for commuter rail service from Tampa to Lakeland, Brooksville, and Sarasota in addition to a few shorter branches such as USF and South Tampa.


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## Mystic River Dragon

It must have been Henry Plant that I was thinking of, but he seems to have lived to a good and wealthy old age and been just fine, so I don't know who else it could have been that I was thinking had a railroad down the west coast and got ruined by the orange freeze.

If they could do something as nice as Sunrail, commuter rail from Tampa would be a good option.


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## railiner

A century ago, there were thru Pullman car lines to all of those branches from the East and Midwest.....


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## west point

Will Ignore the ATL station and congestion. Running the old SOU RR royal palm train would be better than the Floridian. Could be part of Cardinal to Cincinnati then the rat hole to Chattanooga and ATL, Macon, Valdosta, JAX, FEC to Miami . Good route and PTC all the way. As well at ATL would connect to north bound Crescent going Palm going south and opposite Palm going north.

ATL connecting tCrescent service from Chattanooga and Royal palm service from Chattanooga to Florida. Thruway bus Nashville - CHA.

Birmingham and south gets connecting Crescent to Palm to Florida.


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