# Huge News from Virginia



## jis (Dec 19, 2019)

Virginia is acquiring the ex RF&P RoW between Wshington DC and Richmond from CSX. In addition, it is acquiring what appears to be open passenger train rights between Richmond and Petersburg, Doswell to Clifton Forge on BBRR and the S-Line between Petersburg to the border of NC.

This should change the entire shape of passenger rail in Virginia. The whole deal gets e executed by the end of 2020! overall it is $3.6 billion agreement to which Amtrak will contribute a tad over $900 million.

https://www.richmond.com/news/virgi...cle_460c07a4-84d1-5b0c-9c0f-6dd384d7aa7b.html

So I suppose Anderson really means business about Corridors and is willing to put his pocketbook where his mouth is. I reckon that the $944 million from Amtrak will come over several years. Wonder how it will get funded. RRIF? Additional appropriations? From general account?


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## CraigDK (Dec 19, 2019)

Another article for reference.
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2019/12...sion-set-under-3-7-billion-virginia-csx-deal/
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2019/12...sion-set-under-3-7-billion-virginia-csx-deal/

From the wtop.com article, "_Virginia will buy half of the CSX rail line from L’Enfant Plaza in D.C. to downtown Richmond_" and the richmond.com article, "_The package includes half of the 112 miles of right-of-way and 39 miles of track that CSX owns between Richmond and Washington._" It'll be interesting to see the actual details of the transaction.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 19, 2019)

900 million from Amtrak?

How? When?

What the point of half?


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## jis (Dec 19, 2019)

From the BLE https://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=31103

and Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...21ffbc-ff08-11e9-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html

I suspect a significant part of the $944 million would be for Long Bridge, and possibly even for improvements on the BBRR. It will be over 5-8 years is my suspicion too.

This also opens up the possibility of eventual electrification!


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## City of Miami (Dec 19, 2019)

Also included in the super package deal is the purchase by VA from CSX of the Buckingham Branch Line!


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## Anthony V (Dec 19, 2019)

City of Miami said:


> Also included in the super package deal is the purchase by VA from CSX of the Buckingham Branch Line!


With this acquisition, they should look to increase capacity on the line to allow for a daily Cardinal!


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## Anthony V (Dec 19, 2019)

This project will also alleviate one of the two major obstacles to the proposed new service to Bristol, VA.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Dec 19, 2019)

I can't find it mentioned in the text, but the service plan diagram seems to indicate that all trains will stop at both Main Street and Staples Mill, including the LDs and Richmond terminations.


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## City of Miami (Dec 19, 2019)

CSX used the BBRR exclusively for empty coal car trains. There seem to have been fewer in recent months - I live 50 yards away. Wonder what this means. Those coal fired plants aren't going away any time soon.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 19, 2019)

City of Miami said:


> CSX used the BBRR exclusively for empty coal car trains. There seem to have been fewer in recent months - I live 50 yards away. Wonder what this means. Those coal fired plants aren't going away any time soon.



CSXT has an alternative route, BBRR was leased out with a minimum overhead traffic levels from CSXT. Also useage of coal is dry up, even with out environment regulations. Coal is expensive to mine, expensive to transport, expensive to burn, never mind the stuff coming out of the stack. Big changes occurring in the power generation business currently.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 19, 2019)

I’ve long thought the best way to stop delays in and out of Richmond is to rebuild the Bellwood Sub ex SAL main from Richmond to Bellwood. And rebuild the former C&O from Richmond to Doswell. 

Then close Staples Mill and trains would be able to skip Acca Yard and Ashland. Two things that would greatly increase the speed of trains going north south.


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## jis (Dec 19, 2019)

From the Virginia Governor's Office...

https://www.governor.virginia.gov/n...uk5LsCTKa26_s-1rZeJdvLuYmTzUQegIGOkogILNqG5qs


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## bretton88 (Dec 20, 2019)

With this, Amtrak is giving even stronger hints that their next rolling stock purchase will be DEMUs. Gardner expressly mentioned the need to "eliminate the locomotive change at Washington DC." Maybe that's full electrification to Richmond, but nothing in VA's announcement indicates that.


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## lordsigma (Dec 20, 2019)

Looks like all trains including the Star, Meteor, and Palmetto would stop at Richmond Main Street which means the line around the city would no longer carry passengers unless the Auto Train continued to use it. What would the plan be for the S line? If they moved the Auto Train and Silver Service on to a rebuilt S line how does it continue south once it gets to North Carolina - or would this likely be for some future service? Forgive my ignorance for where all these lines go.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 20, 2019)

One thinks the S line is for a new service, and not necessarily for the current Amtrak service.


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## Palmetto (Dec 20, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> I’ve long thought the best way to stop delays in and out of Richmond is to rebuild the Bellwood Sub ex SAL main from Richmond to Bellwood. And rebuild the former C&O from Richmond to Doswell.
> 
> Then close Staples Mill and trains would be able to skip Acca Yard and Ashland. Two things that would greatly increase the speed of trains going north south.



I believe refurbishing the Bellwood Sub was in the original plan. I imagine it still is. To skip Ashland and Staple Mills, you have to leave the RF&P at Doswell, and then you're on Buckingham Branch RR [CSX] track to Richmond. Not a good thing, IMO. CSX is apparently keeping that portion of the BBRR.


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## jis (Dec 20, 2019)

Palmetto said:


> I believe refurbishing the Bellwood Sub was in the original plan. I imagine it still is. To skip Ashland and Staple Mills, you have to leave the RF&P at Doswell, and then you're on Buckingham Branch RR [CSX] track to Richmond. Not a good thing, IMO. CSX is apparently keeping that portion of the BBRR.


Yes CSX is keeping the ex-C&O between Doswell and Richmond. Amtrak will remain on its current route through Ashland and RVR, but south of RVR, will not avoid Main Street on trains going South, once the connection from Main Street to the A-Line is restored and Main Street rebuilt. The Auto Train will still continue to run on the current route between RVR and PTB.



lordsigma said:


> Looks like all trains including the Star, Meteor, and Palmetto would stop at Richmond Main Street which means the line around the city would no longer carry passengers unless the Auto Train continued to use it. What would the plan be for the S line? If they moved the Auto Train and Silver Service on to a rebuilt S line how does it continue south once it gets to North Carolina - or would this likely be for some future service? Forgive my ignorance for where all these lines go.


AFAIK the rebuilt S Line between PTB and RGH will be mostly for new service plus maybe the Star and the Carolinian. The Meteor, the Palmetto and the Auto Train will most likely remain on the A-Line. The Auto Train will indeed remain on its current route between RVR and PTB and not run through Main Street, since it has no reason to add to the congestion at Main Street.

But before anything happens with the S-Line between PTB and RGH NC has to conclude a property acquisition from CSX. AFAIK they have not concluded such an agreement with CSX yet, but they may have and I might have missed it.


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## LookingGlassTie (Dec 20, 2019)

If the Silver Star uses the S-line, would that mean that it will no longer stop in Wilson and Rocky Mount? And just go between RGH and PTB?

Also, how might these proposed improvements affect the routes and schedules of the Northeast Regionals that serve both NFK and NPN?


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Dec 20, 2019)

jis said:


> Rebuilt Bellwood Sub was explicitly not in the finally adopted plan. It was considered as an alternative and rejected.
> 
> Yes CSX is keeping the ex-C&O between Doswell and Richmond. Amtrak will remain on its current route through Ashland and RVR, but south of RVR, will not avoid Main Street on trains going South, once the connection from Main Street to the A-Line is restored and Main Street rebuilt. The Auto Train will still continue to run on the current route between RVR and PTB.
> 
> ...


Is there any indication of when the trains will begin stopping at Main Street? As I mentioned, the only place I can see it discussed is in the service plan and I can't see any indication of a date associated with it.


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## jis (Dec 20, 2019)

LookingGlassTie said:


> If the Silver Star uses the S-line, would that mean that it will no longer stop in Wilson and Rocky Mount? And just go between RGH and PTB?


If it uses the S-Line a decade from now if and when it is rebuilt, then yes, that would be the case.


> Also, how might these proposed improvements affect the routes and schedules of the Northeast Regionals that serve both NFK and NPN?


After the Main Street Station is upgraded and the S-Line connection from it to the A-Line is restored south of the station the NFK trains would presumably start calling at RVM before heading to PTB.

After the additional tracks and upgrades are completed between ALX and RVR presumably running times will be shortened some in that segment for all services, including those to NFK and NPN.


brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Is there any indication of when the trains will begin stopping at Main Street? As I mentioned, the only place I can see it discussed is in the service plan and I can't see any indication of a date associated with it.


I am sure it is several years away. It involves upgrading Main Street station track layout and restoring the connection south of Main Street station to the A-Line.


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## Palmland (Dec 20, 2019)

If the Bellwood sub is not restored for passenger use, are you saying some trains to the south, such as Norfolk, would make a reverse move to return to the A line (at south end of Acca freight yard), about 4 miles? Otherwise, you have to restore the Bellwood sub for its connection to the A line about 15 miles south at Centralia.


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## jis (Dec 20, 2019)

Palmland said:


> If the Bellwood sub is not restored for passenger use, are you saying some trains to the south, such as Norfolk, would make a reverse move to return to the A line (at south end of Acca freight yard), about 4 miles? Otherwise, you have to restore the Bellwood sub for its connection to the A line about 15 miles south at Centralia.


My bad. Brain fart. Yes of course the Bellwood Sub is what will reconnect Main Street to the A-Line. Corrected in the original post.


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## west point (Dec 20, 2019)

The last time I observed the Bellwood sub there were several items. One item was the many freight spurs south of the James River. And the sub was in either Class 2 or sporadic Class 3 conditions. Then there is the old C&O diamond just south of the station platform.
Auto train certainly will use the "A" line and not have to crawl upgrade north from RVM.


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## AGM.12 (Dec 20, 2019)

The Bellwood sub connects to the A line at Centralia. The plan I have a copy of shows another track built on 30' centers parallel the A line and a new bridge across the Appomattox river in Petersburg. At a point near Collier yard the S line veers off on its route to Raleigh. Auto Train will still be on its A line routing because it will not clear the James river sub bridge at the triple crossing.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 20, 2019)

Here is the Bellwood Sub restriction list it looks like a regular dome car can still clear the sub


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## west point (Dec 20, 2019)

Seaboard: That floodwall gates restriction is very important. Completely forgot that they were there. It is too bad that the track cannot be raised above the James River and still serve RVM ?


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## Steve4031 (Dec 20, 2019)

I’m trying to figure out what the Franconia-Springfield flyover will accomplish. I looked on a map and I don’t see any junction in that area. The Norfolk southern junction is already grade separated iirc.


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## Ryan (Dec 21, 2019)

From the article linked in the first post:



> Under the plan, Virginia will build and own separate tracks for passenger service between Alexandria and L’Enfant Station in Washington._ *It also will build a rail bypass or flyover near Springfield and Franconia to allow passenger trains to cross from the east side of the rail line to the west to cross the new Long Bridge.*_


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## Steve4031 (Dec 21, 2019)

Ryan said:


> From the article linked in the first post:


Ryan, I missed that. Thank you for the clarification. This entire project is great news.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 21, 2019)

Ryan said:


> From the article linked in the first post:


Thank you. I missed this the first time I read it. This is great progress for Virginia.


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## neroden (Dec 21, 2019)

jis said:


> Virginia is acquiring the ex RF&P RoW between Wshington DC and Richmond from CSX. In addition, it is acquiring what appears to be open passenger train rights between Richmond and Petersburg, Doswell to Clifton Forge on BBRR and the S-Line between Petersburg to the border of NC.



Looked to me like they were buying the S-Line and the BBBR from Doswell to Clifton Forge outright (fee simple title and everything), actually.



> This should change the entire shape of passenger rail in Virginia. The whole deal gets e executed by the end of 2020! overall it is $3.6 billion agreement to which Amtrak will contribute a tad over $900 million.


It is big news.

Now, can we get NY State and Amtrak to buy the line from Schenectady to Niagara Falls? Pretty Please?


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## neroden (Dec 21, 2019)

City of Miami said:


> CSX used the BBRR exclusively for empty coal car trains. There seem to have been fewer in recent months - I live 50 yards away. Wonder what this means. Those coal fired plants aren't going away any time soon.


....actually, those coal fired power plants are going away extremely soon.

I have been following the end of coal-burning power in the United States quite closely. I suppose you didn't know this, but essentially all coal power plants are economically non-viable now -- it is cheaper to build a whole lot of solar farms and wind farms and a few natural gas turbines and batteries than it is to operate the existing coal power plants. The coal power plants are dropping like flies, closing by the dozens every year.

West Virginia just (in June) gave a taxpayer-subsidized bailout to the Pleasants coal power station (suspending the rules to rush the bailout) and it's expected by experts to go bankrupt anyway.

The coal mining companies are now into their second round of bankruptcies; having tossed their debt in the first round, they still can't make a profit, so now they're actually closing mines. Coal prices can't go down without shutting down mines (which brings coal prices back up), and the power stations are uncompetitive at *current* coal prices... so that's the end of coal burning power.

It's just a matter of how long the companies operating the coal power plants want to bleed money; eventually they will decide to stop bleeding money and shut down the coal power plants. Several large utilities have already made the decision to shut *all* coal power plants on an orderly basis; all the rest will follow.

This is the underlying reason why the entire route of the Cardinal through West Virginia is up for abandonment or spinoff by CSX -- coal traffic is dying, and CSX is noticing. If we want to retain the Cardinal, Amtrak or a state or local government will have to buy the route through West Virginia, and *quickly*. On the plus side, it'll basically be a passenger-only line at that point!


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## neroden (Dec 21, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> Looks like all trains including the Star, Meteor, and Palmetto would stop at Richmond Main Street which means the line around the city would no longer carry passengers unless the Auto Train continued to use it. What would the plan be for the S line? If they moved the Auto Train and Silver Service on to a rebuilt S line how does it continue south once it gets to North Carolina - or would this likely be for some future service? Forgive my ignorance for where all these lines go.



The Southeast High Speed Rail plan, which has been around since, oh, the early 2000s I think, uses the S line to express from Petersburg to Raleigh, following which it continues on the route of the Piedmont/Carolinian. The plan, IIRC, is to retain the Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Palmetto and Auto Train on their current routes while moving the Carolinian to the new line (and adding something like six frequencies per day on the Carolinian). Of course plans can change. But google SEHSR if you want to know more.

It actually seems likely to me that the Star would change routes to the new line, but that would remove Rocky Mount to Raleigh service. Moving the Carolinian would lose service from Wilson and Selma to Raleigh, but that has been the plan all along (the Carolinian is supposed to be part of the SEHSR scheme). I have no doubt that once the S line is rebuilt, there will be long discussions about how to serve Selma, Wilson, and Rocky Mount. It might make the most sense to extend a Piedmont frequency east of Raleigh to Rocky Mount while relocating the Carolinian and the Star to the S line.


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## neroden (Dec 21, 2019)

Ryan said:


> From the article linked in the first post:


Super helpful. So the passenger tracks will be on the west side of the ROW from Franconia/Springfield north, and on the east side of the ROW from Franconia/Springfield south... to Ashland, which is explicitly specified to keep only two tracks through town. Probably on the east side from Ashland to Richmond as well. Then when the S line is rebuilt, it has to cross over the freight routes from the east side to the west side in the vicinity of Petersburg, too (though not for Newport News or Norfolk service).


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## Anderson (Dec 21, 2019)

I know a lot of attention is focused on the WV end of the line (Clifton Forge-Huntington). I think the bigger part of the story is that this seriously opens up Newport News-Richmond for being spun off, which would in turn take a _lot_ of hassle out of expanding service on the Peninsula (i.e. opening up the door to several of those Richmond-terminating trains in the plan going into Newport News instead without requiring arm-and-leg investments, running commuter service on the line, or adding a stop at Busch Gardens on a limited/seasonal basis).


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## neroden (Dec 21, 2019)

Anderson said:


> I know a lot of attention is focused on the WV end of the line (Clifton Forge-Huntington). I think the bigger part of the story is that this seriously opens up Newport News-Richmond for being spun off, which would in turn take a _lot_ of hassle out of expanding service on the Peninsula (i.e. opening up the door to several of those Richmond-terminating trains in the plan going into Newport News instead without requiring arm-and-leg investments, running commuter service on the line, or adding a stop at Busch Gardens on a limited/seasonal basis).



I'm not sure why Newport News to Richmond *wasn't* included in this deal, actually.


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## Anderson (Dec 21, 2019)

neroden said:


> I'm not sure why Newport News to Richmond *wasn't* included in this deal, actually.


Because it wasn't part of the BBRR situation. Remember, CSX leased Richmond-Clifton Forge to the BBRR. What's particularly confusing to me is that Richmond-Doswell on the ex-C&O (basically RVM up to the Doswell crossing) wasn't included since it was part of the BBRR lease.

(Edit: It also wasn't legally part of the RF&P, and it wasn't abandoned. The situation was closer to the Richmond-Petersburg chunk, though why the Peninsula line wasn't at least loaded in there with expanded operating rights makes even less sense. At least PTB-NFK can be blamed on that, well, being an NS line.)


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## AGM.12 (Dec 21, 2019)

While coal may be a shadow of its former self, intermodal could very well fill some of that void since the Hampton Roads ports are quite busy and will become even more so, so the peninsula sub will remain active.


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## Anderson (Dec 21, 2019)

AGM.12 said:


> While coal may be a shadow of its former self, intermodal could very well fill some of that void since the Hampton Roads ports are quite busy and will become even more so, so the peninsula sub will remain active.


That is certainly true, though it would require repurposing the Newport News piers. Somewhat more likely (at least in the short term) is CSX running intermodal stuff down into NC and then back up to the Norfolk side.


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## VAtrainfan (Dec 21, 2019)

neroden said:


> The coal mining companies are now into their second round of bankruptcies; having tossed their debt in the first round, they still can't make a profit, so now they're actually closing mines. Coal prices can't go down without shutting down mines (which brings coal prices back up), and the power stations are uncompetitive at *current* coal prices... so that's the end of coal burning power.
> 
> It's just a matter of how long the companies operating the coal power plants want to bleed money; eventually they will decide to stop bleeding money and shut down the coal power plants. Several large utilities have already made the decision to shut *all* coal power plants on an orderly basis; all the rest will follow.



This was the driving force behind Dominion fighting for years to build new transmission line towers over the James River from Surry to James City County, so they could shut down the Yorktown coal plant. That was finally done earlier this year, the Yorktown plant shut down permanently and the Surry Nuclear Power Station is providing juice to the northwestern end of the Peninsula grid.


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## me_little_me (Dec 22, 2019)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> CSXT has an alternative route, BBRR was leased out with a minimum overhead traffic levels from CSXT. Also useage of coal is dry up, even with out environment regulations. Coal is expensive to mine, expensive to transport, expensive to burn, never mind the stuff coming out of the stack. Big changes occurring in the power generation business currently.


Also possible that CSX would get trackage rights to run in off hours?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 22, 2019)

Pretty sure CSXT not give up there say on who transport freight on these lines. No Norfolk Southern trains will be polishing these rails.


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## NeueAmtrakCalifornia (Dec 24, 2019)

Here's hoping the tracks between DC can be rebuild, modernized and even electrified.


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## snvboy (Dec 25, 2019)

I'm very excited about the possibility of an east/west Staunton - Charlottesville - Richmond - Williamsburg - Tidewater service.


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## lordsigma (Dec 25, 2019)

me_little_me said:


> Also possible that CSX would get trackage rights to run in off hours?


Probably more than rights. They will probably retain some type of common carrier freight easement over the line as a condition of the sale meaning which gives them ownership like rights as far as running freight on the line. Exactly how much freight they could still run would have to be negotiated with the state.


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## Anderson (Dec 26, 2019)

snvboy said:


> I'm very excited about the possibility of an east/west Staunton - Charlottesville - Richmond - Williamsburg - Tidewater service.


The main thrust is likely to be southwards (to Lynchburg/Roanoke) instead of west at Charlottesville. That being said, since they _do_ have tracks all the way to Clifton Forge there's always a chance that NS decides to be intransigent and VA decides that using the yard at Clifton Forge makes more sense (or that WV and CSX come to an agreement of some sort to run a train or two on that line in exchange for WV backing off on the Daily Cardinal).


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## bretton88 (Dec 26, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> Probably more than rights. They will probably retain some type of common carrier freight easement over the line as a condition of the sale meaning which gives them ownership like rights as far as running freight on the line. Exactly how much freight they could still run would have to be negotiated with the state.


The common carrier freight rights is almost what derailed Caltrains electrification. UP resisted quite a bit, despite having no ownership. Eventually UP got some concessions and relented. CSX seems to be more in the mode of "we're washing our hands of these lines." Hopefully Virginia negotiated this out with CSX.


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## Palmland (Dec 26, 2019)

Let’s not be too quick to pronounce coal dead. While U.S. utility coal is dying fast, export coal (to places like India and China) is still reasonably healthy. That means coal trains to Newport News (CSX) and Norfolk (NS) will continue for foreseeable future. 

CSX has been routing loaded coal trains via the James River line (no grades) Clifton Forge to Richmond. Empty have been returning via the BB RR. With this recent news maybe there is sufficient capacity now to move everything via the James River and let VA DOT work with the BB on passenger and local freight traffic. But coal traffic will continue to be a factor East of Richmond and Petersburg.


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## AGM.12 (Dec 27, 2019)

Some have suggested that export coal traffic to the Hampton Roads ports be consolidated to either Newport News or Lamberts Point in Norfolk. If the latter, this could open up more possibilities on the Peninsula sub.


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## neroden (Dec 27, 2019)

Palmland said:


> Let’s not be too quick to pronounce coal dead. While U.S. utility coal is dying fast, export coal (to places like India and China) is still reasonably healthy. That means coal trains to Newport News (CSX) and Norfolk (NS) will continue for foreseeable future.
> 
> CSX has been routing loaded coal trains via the James River line (no grades) Clifton Forge to Richmond. Empty have been returning via the BB RR. With this recent news maybe there is sufficient capacity now to move everything via the James River and let VA DOT work with the BB on passenger and local freight traffic. But coal traffic will continue to be a factor East of Richmond and Petersburg.


Export of thermal coal is dying too. It is official policy in both India and China to end coal imports. Furthermore, export to Asia from the east coast is not commercially viable.

China does keep building coal power plants but is is for stupid reasons related to kickbacks from construction contractors, and many are not even operating, India stopped building them, as has nearly everyone else, and is now figuring out what order to shut them down in.


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## neroden (Dec 27, 2019)

Anderson said:


> The main thrust is likely to be southwards (to Lynchburg/Roanoke) instead of west at Charlottesville. That being said, since they _do_ have tracks all the way to Clifton Forge there's always a chance that NS decides to be intransigent and VA decides that using the yard at Clifton Forge makes more sense (or that WV and CSX come to an agreement of some sort to run a train or two on that line in exchange for WV backing off on the Daily Cardinal).


Given the commercial state of the line in WV...CSX was talking about downgrading it and selling it to a short line... CSX probably wants WV to buy the line outright. I bet CSX is fine with a daily Cardinal as long as they do not have to maintain the track. It's like Raton.

The problem is the same as in New Mexico. There, the Democratic governor was ready to buy the line, and the next, Republican governor, cancelled the purchase. WV has been electing the sort of Republican who I cannot imagine buying the line. The state government would not even pay for MARC service, forced the cities to pay for most of it.


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## Maglev (Dec 27, 2019)

My wife keeps looking for a train through her home town, Abingdon. But I guess Roanoke is as close as we'll get for a while:

https://www.heraldcourier.com/news/...cle_cc8acfec-bbf2-58b3-9545-affd4eb9bf9b.html


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## Anthony V (Dec 27, 2019)

Maglev said:


> My wife keeps looking for a train through her home town, Abingdon. But I guess Roanoke is as close as we'll get for a while:
> 
> https://www.heraldcourier.com/news/...cle_cc8acfec-bbf2-58b3-9545-affd4eb9bf9b.html


Norfolk Southern's lack of participation in a required study is likely why they didn't mention Bristol in the plans for expanded service in the state. Btw, what's taking NS so long to come to the table to negotiate with VA DRPT for service to Bristol?


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## Anderson (Dec 27, 2019)

Anthony V said:


> Norfolk Southern's lack of participation in a required study is likely why they didn't mention Bristol in the plans for expanded service in the state. Btw, what's taking NS so long to come to the table to negotiate with VA DRPT for service to Bristol?


It's complicated. On the one hand, NS doesn't want any more trains (beyond the Norfolk service that was agreed to) if they can help it. Hence the batch of trains terminating at RVM. Just as speculation on my part, but in the next decade or so, continued NS resistance might actually lead to sending another train or two to Newport News instead of Norfolk (since parking four trains in Richmond might actually present a logistical issue...I know they can handle three, but I don't know about the fourth since the plan has always been to run most of the trains to NPN/NFK).

On the other hand, Bristol is also _way_ down the priority list. There's been a push for a train out there for a long time, but given the various other projects that are piling up it's been arguably losing priority over time.


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## AGM.12 (Dec 27, 2019)

As far as the former C&O line through WV I could see CSX doing to that line what NS did to the ex N&W through to Columbus OH and make it more of an intermodal route, that is invest in higher clearance and easing curves with longer sidings.


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## keelhauled (Dec 27, 2019)

neroden said:


> Export of thermal coal is dying too. It is official policy in both India and China to end coal imports. Furthermore, export to Asia from the east coast is not commercially viable.



About all China is doing is putting a cap on foreign imports, of 300 million tons. Their total coal consumption has increased the past few years, and is expected to continue rising next year. That said, the the majority of the imports are from southeast Asia, and the vast majority of their coal is mined domestically.



> China does keep building coal power plants but is is for stupid reasons related to kickbacks from construction contractors, and many are not even operating, India stopped building them, as has nearly everyone else, and is now figuring out what order to shut them down in.


Actually, China's use of coal in power generation continues to grow, albeit at a slowing pace, and India plans to increase their coal-fired power capacity by almost a quarter in the next three years.


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## Anderson (Dec 27, 2019)

AGM.12 said:


> As far as the former C&O line through WV I could see CSX doing to that line what NS did to the ex N&W through to Columbus OH and make it more of an intermodal route, that is invest in higher clearance and easing curves with longer sidings.


The problem is that they've already invested in another route (the "Atlantic Gateway" project), which is the one that the _Capitol Limited_ uses, for that purpose. They also have the Water Level Route, so the usual case for redundant routings is even a bit strained.




keelhauled said:


> About all China is doing is putting a cap on foreign imports, of 300 million tons. Their total coal consumption has increased the past few years, and is expected to continue rising next year. That said, the the majority of the imports are from southeast Asia, and the vast majority of their coal is mined domestically.
> 
> 
> Actually, China's use of coal in power generation continues to grow, albeit at a slowing pace, and India plans to increase their coal-fired power capacity by almost a quarter in the next three years.



So, about those Paris accords...


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## Ramella (Dec 28, 2019)

neroden said:


> Export of thermal coal is dying too. It is official policy in both India and China to end coal imports. Furthermore, export to Asia from the east coast is not commercially viable.
> 
> China does keep building coal power plants but is is for stupid reasons related to kickbacks from construction contractors, and many are not even operating, India stopped building them, as has nearly everyone else, and is now figuring out what order to shut them down in.



You don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the coal business. The export business to Newport News and to Lamberts Point is met coal coming from southern West Virginia. It's not going away anytime soon... but feel free to stand in front of a coal train in Wyoming county to try to stop it.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 29, 2019)

Ramella said:


> You don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the coal business. The export business to Newport News and to Lamberts Point is met coal coming from southern West Virginia. It's not going away anytime soon... but feel free to stand in front of a coal train in Wyoming county to try to stop it.


Looks like you have a point:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1024848/us-steam-coal-exports/

Exports were declining, but it looks like they've gone right back up.


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## neroden (Dec 30, 2019)

Ramella said:


> You don't seem to know as much as you think you do about the coal business. The export business to Newport News and to Lamberts Point is met coal coming from southern West Virginia. It's not going away anytime soon... but feel free to stand in front of a coal train in Wyoming county to try to stop it.


Oh, it's met coal? Well, that still has a business, yes. It's shrinking over the long term too, because DRI & electric arc furnaces are replacing the basic oxygen process. However, it's shrinking substantially more slowly and is more likely to swing with the economy.

I guess you don't know as much as you think you do about the coal business.


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## neroden (Dec 30, 2019)

AGM.12 said:


> As far as the former C&O line through WV I could see CSX doing to that line what NS did to the ex N&W through to Columbus OH and make it more of an intermodal route, that is invest in higher clearance and easing curves with longer sidings.



No chance. The line's got terrible geography for curve straightening and clearance increases, and it's such a twisty line anyway that it'll never be good for intermodal. In fact, to be blunt, it's a *bad route*. For passengers, it's good to stop at Charleston, WV, I guess, and it has nice scenery. But if I were CSX planning an intermodal line, I'd take the Capitol Limited route -- which is exactly what CSX is doing -- before I'd take the Cardinal's route.


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## neroden (Dec 30, 2019)

keelhauled said:


> About all China is doing is putting a cap on foreign imports, of 300 million tons. Their total coal consumption has increased the past few years, and is expected to continue rising next year. That said, the the majority of the imports are from southeast Asia, and the vast majority of their coal is mined domestically.



Yes. The foreign import cap will be reduced to zero over time, which is a deliberate plan to support coal mining jobs in China and to eliminate foreign dependence.



> Actually, China's use of coal in power generation continues to grow, albeit at a slowing pace,


Even this is due to kickbacks and corruption, which happen a lot in a non-market economy. It's cheaper not to use coal, but officials in the provincial government are getting kickbacks not only to build unprofitable coal plants, but to dispatch the overpriced coal plants. Pretty byzantine. It's also not sustainable; the sheer price advantage of wind and solar will eventually give the wind and solar developers more bribe money.



> and India plans to increase their coal-fired power capacity by almost a quarter in the next three years.



The Indian plans are dead on arrival for financial reasons, as has been amply documented in many places. India is slightly more free market than China and the coal plants *cannot* compete. This is being recognized a bit at a time, but trust me, these new plants WILL NOT OPERATE.

In your citation, you've found one guy, the head of the state-run coal power plant operator, who wants to build more coal power plants. The trouble is this:
"Prasad said the growth rate in thermal capacity had outpaced electricity consumption over the last few years, resulting in stranded utility assets across the country."
Prasad, the pro-coal guy, blithely imagines that this is going to reverse. It isn't going to reverse, it's going to get more extreme. Solar & wind development in India is quite sufficient to cover all increases in electricity demand (to be specific, the growth of solar will exceed the growth of electricity demand by 2020 if not earlier), and there's just no place for more coal plants; if they build them they are building stranded assets from day one. Others in the government are recognizing this. Eventually Prasad will be kicked out for being dumb and wasting money.

Another detail here: he's planning to finish 5 GW of worthless coal plants in the next year; whereas there were 10 GW of solar put in in *2018*, and the installations are accelerating. A bunch of contract-breaking moves by state governments (simply refusing to pay under contracts they had previously agreed to) which spooked the solar industry suppressed solar development to a mere 7 GW in the March 2018-March 2019 period, but as that settles down, it'll come roaring back. It certainly won't convince any state government to *overpay* for coal, when they are trying to break contracts to get solar prices further below their already-below-coal prices.

Even beyond that, India has expressed an explicit goal of eliminating coal imports -- originally to be done by substituting domestic coal production, but they're changing their mind and cancelling planned coal mines due to oversupply.

Getting back to Virginia, the met coal market is currently glutted and prices are crashing. Traffic is going to be lighter and lighter.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 31, 2019)

FYI:

Met Coal is Metallurgical coal used in making iron, and steel.

Steam Coal is burned to make electricity.

Literally burned to make steam to turn a turbine. Expensive to mine, expensive to transport, expensive to burn. Steam plants don’t start on a dime, you have to keep the fire going even at low need periods such as at night. That why it’s expensive to burn, then of course is the cost of the stuff coming out of the stack. Cancer cluster around coal plants are occurring. What causes the cancer has yet to be determined, but it’s know issue.


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## Anderson (Dec 31, 2019)

Steam coal is likely going away (for the very most part). On the other hand, grab a Snickers because industrial-use coal (whether used in steel production/refining or otherwise) isn't going anywhere for a while. Ditto the use of other hydrocarbon sources in industry (plastics leap to mind, as do lubricants).


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## neroden (Jan 13, 2020)

Met coal is primarily used in the making of steel through the traditional pig iron / Bessemer process stages. (Basic oxygen process is a variant of Bessemer process.). This is obsolete, although there are still a lot of old plants. The cheaper, more efficient way to make steel is through the direct reduced iron process followed by the electric arc furnace (aka minimill). The cheapest way to make DRI uses methane, not coal. This means that in industry downturns, pig iron and Bessemer process plants close and met coal demand drops. In industry upturns, DRI plants and minimills open and methane demand rises. Coal demand does not.


So met coal demand is going straight down, forever. It is slower than the drop in thermal coal demand because solar farms and wind farms are super fast to build, whereas DRI plants and minimills are slower and more expensive to build, but it is happening.


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## cirdan (Jan 13, 2020)

City of Miami said:


> CSX used the BBRR exclusively for empty coal car trains. There seem to have been fewer in recent months - I live 50 yards away. Wonder what this means. Those coal fired plants aren't going away any time soon.



I guess that just because CSX sold the RoW, this doesn't mean they instantly lose all access to the line.

AFAIK, CSX still runs some freight on some of the lines it sold for commuter rail in Florida, for example.

But as others have said, in the long term coal is in decline, and so the situation will not continue indefinitely.

Actually a smart move on CSX's part, as this effectively means they are no longer on the hook for doing maintenance for a line that in their view is in terminal decline.


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## jis (Jan 13, 2020)

neroden said:


> The Indian plans are dead on arrival for financial reasons, as has been amply documented in many places. India is slightly more free market than China and the coal plants *cannot* compete. This is being recognized a bit at a time, but trust me, these new plants WILL NOT OPERATE.
> 
> In your citation, you've found one guy, the head of the state-run coal power plant operator, who wants to build more coal power plants. The trouble is this:
> "Prasad said the growth rate in thermal capacity had outpaced electricity consumption over the last few years, resulting in stranded utility assets across the country."
> Prasad, the pro-coal guy, blithely imagines that this is going to reverse. It isn't going to reverse, it's going to get more extreme. Solar & wind development in India is quite sufficient to cover all increases in electricity demand (to be specific, the growth of solar will exceed the growth of electricity demand by 2020 if not earlier), and there's just no place for more coal plants; if they build them they are building stranded assets from day one. Others in the government are recognizing this.


Also just because there is thermal capacity does not mean those plants are burning coal necessarily or exclusively. One of the big moves in India is to burn biomass pellets in an attempt to control particulate pollution that is the root cause of most of the atmospheric pollution. It has been traditional in India to burn unused parts of harvests in an uncontrolled manner. This is now being curbed and the materials that were burned in open fields is now being collected and pelletized in plants with controlled emissions and then these pellets are being used as fuel in thermal power plants. This replaces fuel that releases sequestered Carbon by fuel that releases non-sequestered Carbon, which is the next best thing to releasing no Carbon at all, and in addition it removes a whole bunch of particulates emissions. In addition to that Carbon sequestration is a big area of investigation, though in its infancy at present, but with very significant funding, though in all it makes Thermal plants even less economically viable. How does one exactly complete with free recurring cost of sunlight and wind?

And all this is in addition to a national push to exploit wind and solar as much as feasible. Heck even NTPC, the outfit that builds and runs Thermal power plants, is now building Solar capacity. Indian Railways is on a binge to install Solar capacity wherever they can find a surface to stick it on - places roofs of stations and other properties, on electrification poles along thousands of km or electrified rail route, you name it. Currently in the works is capacity of 1-2GW, more to come. Major deployment of storage technologies are also in the works, and not just batteries.

Anyone that believes that India will immensely increase use of Coal in the coming years is smoking some of the output from Coal I am afraid.


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## cirdan (Jan 13, 2020)

jis said:


> It has been traditional in India to burn unused parts of harvests in an uncontrolled manner. This is now being curbed and the materials that were burned in open fields is now being collected and pelletized in plants with controlled emissions and then these pellets are being used as fuel in thermal power plants. This replaces fuel that releases sequestered Carbon by fuel that releases non-sequestered Carbon, which is the next best thing to releasing no Carbon at all, and in addition it removes a whole bunch of particulates emissions.



I agree 100% about non-sequesetered carbon. Also, burning biomass basically eliminates the sulfur and heavy metal emissions that you get from coal, especially if you are running your chimney stacks without scrubbers. But depending on how efficiently you are burning stuff, biomass can cause as much carbon monoxide and particulate matter as coal, including the carcinogens.

After all, the number one cause of lung cancer worldwide is cigarette smoke, which is essentially biomass.


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## jis (Jan 13, 2020)

cirdan said:


> I agree 100% about non-sequesetered carbon. Also, burning biomass basically eliminates the sulfur and heavy metal emissions that you get from coal, especially if you are running your chimney stacks without scrubbers. But depending on how efficiently you are burning stuff, biomass can cause as much carbon monoxide and particulate matter as coal, including the carcinogens.


The more modern power plants where this is being done have scrubbers, sometimes pretty elaborate ones. That is the whole reason for expending the effort to collect the stuff from the field and bring them into the system that has scrubbers. They are needed both at the power plants and also the pelletizing plants. A lot of the ash actually comes out in the latter as things get converted into what are essentially charcoal pellets.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 26, 2020)

I haven't been as excited about this as others. I've asked around and I haven't received an answer but who will maintain and dispatch the territory? My guess is CSX will probably be involved. Additionally, is there an exclusive occupancy deal?


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## Anderson (Jan 26, 2020)

I think the exclusive occupancy question depends on the segment.

Also, I think I _finally_ sussed an answer out as to what the deal is with the RF&P. It _looks_ like the state took a 49% interest in the RF&P subsidiary of CSX alongside outright ownership of a few track portions.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 26, 2020)

Both Anderson and Gardner manage to do an entire article without directly bashing network trains. I think it’s a first.

https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.wash...a-8406-df3c54b3253e_story.html?outputType=amp


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## jis (Jan 26, 2020)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Both Anderson and Gardner manage to do an entire article without directly bashing network trains. I think it’s a first.


I suppose they are slowly learning the lay of the land.


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## Anderson (Jan 27, 2020)

Well, the article also didn't give them any "helpful" prompts in that respect, either.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 27, 2020)

Anderson said:


> I think the exclusive occupancy question depends on the segment.
> 
> Also, I think I _finally_ sussed an answer out as to what the deal is with the RF&P. It _looks_ like the state took a 49% interest in the RF&P subsidiary of CSX alongside outright ownership of a few track portions.



If there is an exclusive occupancy agreement, it may only apply to the new segment of tracks. If there are still trackage rights associated with the tracks sold to VA...and you have CSX dispatching and maintaining the territory, it may not be as good as a deal for Virginia as it is for CSX.


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## Anderson (Jan 28, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> If there is an exclusive occupancy agreement, it may only apply to the new segment of tracks. If there are still trackage rights associated with the tracks sold to VA...and you have CSX dispatching and maintaining the territory, it may not be as good as a deal for Virginia as it is for CSX.


Well, with the east-west tracks I suspect that's still going to be handled by BBRR, and there's no (immediate) plan to run passenger trains there. The RF&P, on the other hand, is...well, it's a mess insofar as my read is that the state gets to add lots and lots of trains...predicated on Long Bridge getting sorted, in particular.

Also, if CSX is handling dispatching I would hope they loaded in terms and conditions for what CSX was to do in terms of dispatching priority.


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## LookingGlassTie (Jan 28, 2020)

Guess my question is: Would there be fewer dispatching bottlenecks due to freight traffic if there are more tracks for the Amtrak trains to run on?


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## west point (Jan 28, 2020)

Yes no interference from VA avenue tunnel to ALX with 4 tracks. 2 freight 2 passenger. The bypass tack at Franconia will allow both north and southbound trains to stop at same time at the station and a freight trains to pass at same time. The siding north of ALX will allow 2 passenger trains at same time at ALX station.
That is just a thumb nail sketch.


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