# Short staffing leading to cuts? (RPA Article)



## danasgoodstuff (Oct 15, 2021)

Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC - We Aren’t Out of the Woods Yet


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## Amtrakfflyer (Oct 15, 2021)

Typical RPA, “ we can’t do this, we can’t do that, etc etc”.


Well what we can and should be doing is demand competent management.

Unfortunately I see the cuts coming and I take this blurb from RPA as Amtrak’s way to leak the information.


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## neroden (Oct 15, 2021)

While there may be an actual shortage of workers, and it takes time to hire new ones, I know that Amtrak can reassign employees all over the country.

Therefore a competent management faced with a shortage will retain daily service on the National Network trains, whose revenue has held up, and if necessary reduce service on the NEC, whose revenue has collapsed. 

However, Amtrak's management is famous for its shooting-self-in-foot incompetence. RPA's role is partly to showcase that to Congress and force Amtrak management to stop shooting itself in the foot.


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## danasgoodstuff (Oct 15, 2021)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Typical RPA, “ we can’t do this, we can’t do that, etc etc”.
> 
> 
> Well what we can and should be doing is demand competent management.
> ...


I'm not getting what your beef with RPA is here, as I see it the're just reporting info of interest to their members. Perhaps there's some history here that I'm missing?


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## lordsigma (Oct 15, 2021)

I’m not going to bash RPA. They have worked hard to get some very favorable language into recent legislation which is their main purpose - and they have been effective in that purpose. They have zero control over Amtrak management. All they can do is advocate. The labor shortage is real and the main thing threatening the cuts is the coming vaccine mandate deadline in November. Some employees are refusing particularly on the T&E side of things.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 15, 2021)

Very complex issues for sure! 

Staffing is effected by funding and covid mandate to get vaccinated or be terminated. Both funding and staffing issues are causing great pain for pax. Where is management on this page??? Everyone asks... Huh? What? We need a unified force [management agreeing with governing agencies willing to fund what needs to be funded] that's headed in a positive direction regarding employee work loads, service priorities, and comprehensive structured planning. 

Um... and what are we going to do about the vaccination issue coming due Nov 22???


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## Acela150 (Oct 15, 2021)

neroden said:


> While there may be an actual shortage of workers, and it takes time to hire new ones, I know that Amtrak can reassign employees all over the country.



All I can say is, It's not that simple this time around.


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## Trogdor (Oct 15, 2021)

Acela150 said:


> All I can say is, It's not that simple this time around.



Exactly. If you want to lose even more employees, all you have to do is take a bunch from Washington or New York and tell them they have to move to Minot, ND, next week.

There’s a federal mandate that will require transportation workers to be vaccinated. This is going to hit all forms of public transportation very hard over the coming weeks and months; and it will affect some more than others.

I’ll leave it to others to speculate what parts of the country may be home to the most vaccine-hesitant (to put it mildly) staff, and what trains operate through those areas.


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## cirdan (Oct 16, 2021)

The whole thing seems pretty crazy to me . In all likelihood anti passenger rail people will be growing their stranglehold on Congress come the mid terms next year . If we want to do something good for Amtrak it’s now or never . With Amtrak joe in charge and a workable majority , what else do we need ? 

instead Amtrak is being train wrecked into a situation that will make it vulnerable , under performing and easy to stick a dagger into its back .

what are they thinking ?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 17, 2021)

Had a friend apply for extra board position at Amtrak. Radio silence from Amtrak. Ok pretty sure it was a recall position and not a outside application position at that time. But good paying union work is still in demand.

The whole application for jobs thing sucks pond scum. This apply to Amtrak and private companies too.

If you haven’t try to get hired recently before the Pandemic it was very frustrating. Just last spring I was poking around and it was just as frustrating. (Might be a age thing now that I am over 50.)

Maybe today it different with these vaccine requirements but I doubt it.


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## City of Miami (Oct 17, 2021)

Charlottesville Area Transit used to be a very good local transit agency. No longer. Everyday they tweet out 4 or 5 holes in the schedule for the day that they cannot maintain for some reason - I honestly don't know if it's lack of drivers or equipment, management never gives an explanation, just feeble insincere apologies. Unlike Amtrak even with, or perhaps due to, fare free they have lost all their ridership except those of us who have no alternative except walking which I resort to as much as possible.


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## Willbridge (Oct 17, 2021)

City of Miami said:


> Charlottesville Area Transit used to be a very good local transit agency. No longer. Everyday they tweet out 4 or 5 holes in the schedule for the day that they cannot maintain for some reason - I honestly don't know if it's lack of drivers or equipment, management never gives an explanation, just feeble insincere apologies. Unlike Amtrak even with, or perhaps due to, fare free they have lost all their ridership except those of us who have no alternative except walking which I resort to as much as possible.


Transit systems in diverse parts of the country are having trouble staffing operator positions. School districts have been cutting routes. Management employees have been taking turns in the dining room of the retirement facility that I live in as lower paid employees are lured away.


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## neroden (Oct 18, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Had a friend apply for extra board position at Amtrak. Radio silence from Amtrak. Ok pretty sure it was a recall position and not a outside application position at that time. But good paying union work is still in demand.


Poor hiring practices sure aren't gonna help Amtrak fill those jobs, are they.

(And I am reading about how spectacularly incompetent many companies' hiring practices are on a daily basis; at least Amtrak doesn't use automated keyword filtering or arbitrary credentialism to filter out qualifed, competent workers, which is apparently common!)


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## OBS (Oct 18, 2021)

neroden said:


> First of all, the bottom-seniority Extra Board employees are used to it. While Amtrak may not be able to do this to everyone, Amtrak certainly has some flexibility in moving people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You live in a dream world...Even if you do get T&E employees to transfer to a new base, They have to get qualified on operating rules and physical characteristics of their new route, which takes several weeks if not months.

Also, to clarify, Amtrak does not transfer "employees " all over the country, they transfer the jobs. Whether they can get employees to move to take these positions is another matter.....


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 18, 2021)

neroden said:


> Poor hiring practices sure aren't gonna help Amtrak fill those jobs, are they.
> 
> (And I am reading about how spectacularly incompetent many companies' hiring practices are on a daily basis; at least Amtrak doesn't use automated keyword filtering or arbitrary credentialism to filter out qualifed, competent workers, which is apparently common!)



I am not sure they don’t use those systems. I suspect many of the job I have applied in the past use those systems. It seem very common. So why would Amtrak not use these systems.


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## neroden (Oct 18, 2021)

OBS said:


> You live in a dream world...Even if you do get T&E employees to transfer to a new base, They have to get qualified on operating rules and physical characteristics of their new route, which takes several weeks if not months.
> 
> Also, to clarify, Amtrak does not transfer "employees " all over the country, they transfer the jobs. Whether they can get employees to move to take these positions is another matter.....



Well, if employees prefer to not have work than to have work, then yes, not much to be done...

...which I understand completely when it's really-badly-paid extremely-bad-working-conditions work like low-paid retail or high patient-to-staff-ratio nursing. But this seems frankly unlikely for Amtrak Engineers, which has always been a coveted position and is quite well-paid.

Amtrak HAD plenty of weeks and months to retrain employees before the vaccination mandate became enforced, at least if Amtrak management started early enough, which being Amtrak management, perhaps they didn't.

Here's two more reasons why three-a-week would be unjustifiable management idiocy:

-- a minor shortage of conductors doesn't require reducing the number of days a train operates. Most trains operate with several assistant conductors. Assistant conductors can be qualified and promoted to conductor pretty quickly, certainly within the time span which Amtrak *has had* (mind you, management may have been wasting that time, as noted previously). In this case, the train might need to run shorter due to a lack of ACs, but it wouldn't need to run less than daily. I am reading the SMART agreement right now; there would have to be some really severe shortages to run out of conductors, far more than seem plausible.

-- if there really is a shortage of engineers meaning the train can't run every day, the first thing to try would, obviously, be to run *6* days a week. Going to 3 immediately smacks of a hostile agenda; it has nothing to do with staff shortages.

I certainly wouldn't put it past Amtrak management to have sat on their hands, failed to hire people, failed to promote people, failed to plan for the long-in-the-works vaccine mandate, and wasted the time they needed to get people qualified. I still don't think that would be excusable in any way, and even if they have a shortage due to their own incompetence, mindless three-a-weekery is not the solution.

Let me put this another way. If the rumor was "Nearly all the engineers out of Shelby, Spokane, and St. Cloud have refused to get vaccinated, we may have to suspend the Empire Builder", that would sound entirely plausible and reasonable to me. "Three a week all over the country" isn't a plausible response to regionally-distributed vaccine refusal -- it doesn't pass the smell test.


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## OBS (Oct 18, 2021)

neroden said:


> Well, if employees prefer to not have work than to have work, then yes, not much to be done...
> 
> ...which I understand completely when it's really-badly-paid extremely-bad-working-conditions work like low-paid retail or high patient-to-staff-ratio nursing. But this seems frankly unlikely for Amtrak Engineers, which has always been a coveted position and is quite well-paid.
> 
> ...


One minor correction to what you have posted. There are ZERO Amtrak trains that operate with several assistant Conductors. All LD trains operate with One Conductor and One Asst. Conductor. There may be a few NEC trains that have a second asst. Conductor, but are usually regionals with 8 or more cars, or a strategy move to get the person in place to work a different train on the return


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## jis (Oct 18, 2021)

OBS said:


> One minor correction to what you have posted. There are ZERO Amtrak trains that operate with several assistant Conductors. All LD trains operate with One Conductor and One Asst. Conductor. There may be a few NEC trains that have a second asst. Conductor, but are usually regionals with 8 or more cars, or a strategy move to get the person in place to work a different train on the return


Indeed! It is also another way of stating that none of the LD trains have enough cars to justify a second Assistant Conductor,whcih in itself is a sorry state of affairs that have devolved to over the years. The incredible shrinking LD trains of Amtrak! Maybe someone can write a fairy tale about it


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## neroden (Oct 21, 2021)

OBS said:


> One minor correction to what you have posted. There are ZERO Amtrak trains that operate with several assistant Conductors. All LD trains operate with One Conductor and One Asst. Conductor. There may be a few NEC trains that have a second asst. Conductor, but are usually regionals with 8 or more cars, or a strategy move to get the person in place to work a different train on the return


"The understaffing dates back longer than I realized!"


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## Acela150 (Oct 21, 2021)

OBS said:


> One minor correction to what you have posted. There are ZERO Amtrak trains that operate with several assistant Conductors. All LD trains operate with One Conductor and One Asst. Conductor. There may be a few NEC trains that have a second asst. Conductor, but are usually regionals with 8 or more cars, or a strategy move to get the person in place to work a different train on the return



IIRC, and I'll have to do some digging.. The Corridor trains with the exception of Acela trains are supposed to have 2 AC's as per the Contract. I believe that any train 7 cars or more requires a 2nd AC. I do have to look into that though.


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## cirdan (Oct 21, 2021)

neroden said:


> -- if there really is a shortage of engineers meaning the train can't run every day, the first thing to try would, obviously, be to run *6* days a week. Going to 3 immediately smacks of a hostile agenda; it has nothing to do with staff shortages.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't put it past Amtrak management to have sat on their hands, failed to hire people, failed to promote people, failed to plan for the long-in-the-works vaccine mandate, and wasted the time they needed to get people qualified. I still don't think that would be excusable in any way, and even if they have a shortage due to their own incompetence, mindless three-a-weekery is not the solution.



If Amtrak management has been sitting on its hands and failed to realize the gravity of the situation or was hoping the problem would fix itself, maybe they should be pushing for an extension of the deadline rather than wrecking their product and hence only making their own failings obvious for all to see and giving their detractors and haters the ammunition to use against them.

Amtrak is otherwise so good at thinking up excuses. So why not think one up now and use it to lobby for a deadline extension or at least a transitional phase.


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## neroden (Oct 21, 2021)

I will note for the record that the Lake Shore Limited traditionally had 8 or more cars.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 21, 2021)

neroden said:


> I will note for the record that the Lake Shore Limited traditionally had 8 or more cars.


The Lake Shore Limited I rode last week had 2 sleepers, 2 coaches, a diner and the baggage car in the New York Section, and 1 sleeper, the business class/cafe and 2 coaches in the Boston section, for a total of 10 cars.


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## OBS (Oct 22, 2021)

The LD trains operate under different Union Contracted rules than the NEC. All LD trains can operate with one Cdr and one Asst Cdr per the Union agreement. This was negotiated approx. 10 years ago, and a portion of the cost savings is distributed to crew to compensate for the extra work required.


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## neroden (Oct 22, 2021)

OBS said:


> The LD trains operate under different Union Contracted rules than the NEC. All LD trains can operate with one Cdr and one Asst Cdr per the Union agreement. This was negotiated approx. 10 years ago, and a portion of the cost savings is distributed to crew to compensate for the extra work required.



This does seem like understaffing for a train which -- in the case of the Lake Shore Limited -- has occasionally had five coaches, three sleepers, and a business class car. While it may be allowed by union contract (which is fine) at some point it starts to seem inadvisable from a business-sense perspective.


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## OBS (Oct 23, 2021)

This change was not pushed for by the Union. It was a Management initiative that was pushed rather strongly.


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## neroden (Oct 23, 2021)

Well, in good news, I heard from someone inside Amtrak that they will be evaluating cuts on a route-by-route basis; if there are enough people to operate the Capitol Limited daily, it'll operate daily, etc.

If there are a few routes with shortages, I attempted to push the idea that for customers even 4 a week was a lot more practical than 3 a week (since the maximum wait time for the next train is 2 days rather than 3, a huge difference in trip planning); we'll see if the message gets through.


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## jis (Oct 23, 2021)

OBS said:


> This change was not pushed for by the Union. It was a Management initiative that was pushed rather strongly.


Which probably indicates that the management firmly believes that the trains will never again get to be of a length that requires more staffing than that, if they exist at all that is.  They just want the freedom to go over the threshold by a car or two occasionally without requiring an additional person. 

BTW what did the Union get in exchange for this? Or did they?


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## OBS (Oct 23, 2021)

jis said:


> Which probably indicates that the management firmly believes that the trains will never again get to be of a length that requires more staffing than that, if they exist at all that is.  They just want the freedom to go over the threshold by a car or two occasionally without requiring an additional person.
> 
> BTW what did the Union get in exchange for this? Or did they?


What they received was a percentage (30 or 40 %) of the salaries saved which was distributed to the affected employees based on some formula of # of trips each crew person made over the course of the year.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 23, 2021)

It always nice to see how little greed is need to cut your fellow employees job. Remember the On Board Baggage Handlers position, now the amount of conductor per cars.

Totally missed this change.


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## Willbridge (Oct 23, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> It always nice to see how little greed is need to cut your fellow employees job. Remember the On Board Baggage Handlers position, now the amount of conductor per cars.
> 
> Totally missed this change.


Even before Amtrak the head-end brakeman on GN trains could handle baggage (see below). The on-board Baggage Handlers of old took care of a lot of things that Amtrak does not do, such as caring for pets, shipments of honey bees, customs documentation, etc. We dug up the 1963 photo for _ColoRail Passenger issue 24 _when the UP was claiming that passenger trains didn't carry high-value "deadline" commodities.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 23, 2021)

cirdan said:


> If Amtrak management has been sitting on its hands and failed to realize the gravity of the situation or was hoping the problem would fix itself, maybe they should be pushing for an extension of the deadline rather than wrecking their product and hence only making their own failings obvious for all to see and giving their detractors and haters the ammunition to use against them.
> 
> Amtrak is otherwise so good at thinking up excuses. So why not think one up now and use it to lobby for a deadline extension or at least a transitional phase.


The only thing wrong about your analysis of Amtrak's management is that it simply is incapable. It can't be fixed. And if someone is telling you otherwise they don't realize... that's how the government works. It doesn't think!!!!!


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## neroden (Oct 23, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> The only thing wrong about your analysis of Amtrak's management is that it simply is incapable. It can't be fixed. And if someone is telling you otherwise they don't realize... that's how the government works. It doesn't think!!!!!


All bureaucracies are stuck-in-the-mud and difficult to change, and particularly hard to fix. HOWEVER...

I've seen more management change and more actual fixes in government departments in my life than I've *ever* seen in "private business". Each private business is about as stuck-in-its-ways, incurable, and unfixable as can be. 

Government departments CAN and DO get fixed, because they have an actual boss who has the power to demand changes: the President and Congress (or Governor and State Legislature).

Corporate CEOs select their own successors, so the rot continues forever as a rotten CEO selects a rotten successor; it requires extreme luck for a private corporation to fix anything. As I say, I've watched government departments get fixed far more often than private corporations.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 24, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> that's how the government works. It doesn't think!!!!!


If my former agency "didn't work," and "didn't think," we'd all still be breathing nasty sulfurous, ozone-laden air on most days of the year. Other government agencies called the "US Army" and "US Navy" were able to defeat two hostile major world powers (Germany and Japan) at the same time. The mere presence of these same government agencies, warts and all, is the reason why we're not being invaded by various hostile rival powers today. Much as we might deplore the existence of the Interstate Highway system, it was built by the government. Then there's National Parks, national maps, inland and costal waterways, Social Security, Medicare, and much, much more, all courtesy of a government that apparently "doesn't work" and "doesn't think," according to some people. 

Then there's the private sector. The main way they seem to make their money is by various financial manipulations, with any productive work that does get done being outsourced to the lowest quality and cheapest source they can find. In the passenger railroad world, I present to you the historical example of the Penn Central. I'll take the worst that Amtrak can offer over what the Penn Central was dishing out in 1970.


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 24, 2021)

Some of my fondest RR memories were of the Penn Central we took between Chicago and Phi to visit my grandma in the late 60's... my 'Nanny' lived in Elkins Park PA. The passenger always cars smelled of varnish and cleansing solution I guess they used to keep things absolutely spotless. Mother brought along some sandwiches but we did splurge on the pillows which cost 35 cents to rent for the night... the sheets they provided were always starchy and meticulously clean. The ride was like a magic carpet upon silk. I just loved to look out the window as the train left Chicago and sped through the night. Mother said I must sleep and not look out the window... but I did anyway. [Shhh! Don't tell!]

I will always have fond memories of the cleanliness, professionalism, and the 'aura' of riding the Pennsy. But you may ask, why not the New York Central? Because the Pennsy fare was always less... we didn't have much money... so that is the train we rode.

But at age 8 I was as happy as a lark. Some of my most precious railroad memories were collected on those smooth... sweet... and exciting rides between Chicago and Philadelphia. And I must never forget to mention ... grandma was standing there waiting for us with a basket of her very famous and loved raison and date cookies.

As a little kid I had no awareness or concern about what went on with Railroad Big Business and politics... I just remember the magic carpet rides between Chicago and Philadelphia. Unfortunately I don't dream about the future of rail... I dream about the days past... that were so golden.


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## LookingGlassTie (Oct 24, 2021)

Apparently "Amtrak Joe" really shot himself in the foot with the vaccine mandate. His "thin patience" with those who are not yet vaccinated is taking its toll on Amtrak, IMO.


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## cirdan (Oct 25, 2021)

neroden said:


> Corporate CEOs select their own successors, so the rot continues forever as a rotten CEO selects a rotten successor; it requires extreme luck for a private corporation to fix anything. As I say, I've watched government departments get fixed far more often than private corporations.



Rotten corporations tend to rot away over time and new players come onto the market and displace them.

We have seen many once great corporations reduced to a shadow of their former selves or destroyed completely. 

But government is not like that. If a Amtrak fails, there won't be a new better Amtrak rising up to replace it. There just won't be any more trains (except in the NEC).


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## cirdan (Oct 25, 2021)

LookingGlassTie said:


> Apparently "Amtrak Joe" really shot himself in the foot with the vaccine mandate. His "thin patience" with those who are not yet vaccinated is taking its toll on Amtrak, IMO.



I mentioned Amtrak Joe in a tongue in cheek manner. Obvious the POTUS is not personally responsible for every stupid mistake Amtrak makes. But for somebody who supposedly understands the argument for Amtrak and passenger rail better than any president in living memory, it is disappointing that he doesn't rap Amtrak management's knuckles a bit more often.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 25, 2021)

cirdan said:


> I mentioned Amtrak Joe in a tongue in cheek manner. Obvious the POTUS is not personally responsible for every stupid mistake Amtrak makes. But for somebody who supposedly understands the argument for Amtrak and passenger rail better than any president in living memory, it is disappointing that he doesn't rap Amtrak management's knuckles a bit more often.


I think the President has a lot more on his plate right now that's much more important to the fate of the country than the state of Amtrak long-distance passenger rail service.


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## AmtrakBlue (Oct 25, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I think the President has a lot more on his plate right now that's much more important to the fate of the country than the state of Amtrak long-distance passenger rail service.


Totally Agree


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## 20th Century Rider (Oct 25, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I think the President has a lot more on his plate right now that's much more important to the fate of the country than the state of Amtrak long-distance passenger rail service.


That is a fair assessment... we must face into the environmental crisis and make immediate changes... we must also deal with supply chain shortages and other effects of the ongoing pandemic... and must do something about the drug problem, homelessness, social security, and prison overpopulation.

Certainly the overall welfare of Americans should be prioritized by our government.


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## cirdan (Oct 25, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I think the President has a lot more on his plate right now that's much more important to the fate of the country than the state of Amtrak long-distance passenger rail service.



He doesn't have to micro manage Amtrak, but he could be signaling that he's keeping an eye on how things are panning out in between the more important tasks.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 25, 2021)

LookingGlassTie said:


> Apparently "Amtrak Joe" really shot himself in the foot with the vaccine mandate. His "thin patience" with those who are not yet vaccinated is taking its toll on Amtrak, IMO.


How much longer do you propose we wait? The implication that holdouts will eventually get vaccinated on their own schedule is magical thinking. These people made up their minds months ago and now it's time to pack up and move to Idaho.



cirdan said:


> He doesn't have to micro manage Amtrak, but he could be signaling that he's keeping an eye on how things are panning out in between the more important tasks.


We went from a POTUS who proposed zero dollar budgets to one that proposes billions in new spending and it's still not good enough for some.


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## neroden (Oct 28, 2021)

LookingGlassTie said:


> Apparently "Amtrak Joe" really shot himself in the foot with the vaccine mandate. His "thin patience" with those who are not yet vaccinated is taking its toll on Amtrak, IMO.


Good riddance to bad rubbish. I'm not riding the trains until the anti-vax idiots are gone anyway. It'll take time to replace them *alll*, but...

-- while it takes years to train an engineer, apparently there haven't been many anti-vax engineers
-- it doesn't take nearly as long to train a conductor and there always plenty of applicants
-- it takes even less time to train OBS and Amtrak is apparently hiring loads of OBS right now
-- it takes even less time to train mechanical staff and Amtrak is hiring too
-- it takes even less time to hire call center staff, and some of the ones operating now don't seem trained, so training must not be required before employment

I have heard rumor that Amtrak was already over 80% employees vaccinated last week with large percentages getting vaccinated every week, and that the anti-vaxxers are definitely entirely locally concentrated in particular areas, not really nationwide. So it's time IMO to push out the deadwood and replace them with sane employees.

Amtrak should have enough fully vaccinated employees to operate full service and expand service by January, and I'm not going anywhere until then anyway because of the pandemic -- that's around when the under-12s will be fully vaccinated and we might start to get some benefit from herd immunity.


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## neroden (Oct 28, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Rotten corporations tend to rot away over time and new players come onto the market and displace them.



Tell that to any of the natural monopolies -- power distribution, telephone network, Amazon, Facebook, former private railroads, any telecom, anything in transportation. Rotten companies *who have natural monopolies* just keep rotting for decades, and can keep rotting away for 50 or 100 years before collapsing... after which they aren't properly replaced for generations, or ever.



> We have seen many once great corporations reduced to a shadow of their former selves or destroyed completely.


Yes, and this works OK in competitive markets. But not in natural-monopoly markets.



> But government is not like that. If a Amtrak fails, there won't be a new better Amtrak rising up to replace it. There just won't be any more trains (except in the NEC).


This is actually not a government/private distinction. This is a natural monopoly / competitive market distinction.

If PG&E (a private, for-profit company providing electric service in California) rots and burns, there is no "new and better electric company" rising to replace it, not for decades. Because of the nature of the business.


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## Cal (Oct 28, 2021)

neroden said:


> -- it takes even less time to train OBS and Amtrak is apparently hiring loads of OBS right now


Because of the big OBS shortage, that, AFAIK, was a problem before the pandemic (feel free to correct me). The pandemic just made it worse.


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## Acela150 (Nov 6, 2021)

Acela150 said:


> IIRC, and I'll have to do some digging.. The Corridor trains with the exception of Acela trains are supposed to have 2 AC's as per the Contract. I believe that any train 7 cars or more requires a 2nd AC. I do have to look into that though.



Ok.. I looked at the contract last night. My memory serves me correctly. 



OBS said:


> The LD trains operate under different Union Contracted rules than the NEC. All LD trains can operate with one Cdr and one Asst Cdr per the Union agreement. This was negotiated approx. 10 years ago, and a portion of the cost savings is distributed to crew to compensate for the extra work required.



Bingo!



neroden said:


> -- while it takes years to train an engineer, apparently there haven't been many anti-vax engineers. IIRC the LET program takes about 2 year to complete which includes the OJT. That of course is the majority of the time.
> -- it doesn't take nearly as long to train a conductor and there always plenty of applicants But are they QUALIFIED applicants?
> -- it takes even less time to train OBS and Amtrak is apparently hiring loads of OBS right now True, many crew bases are extremely shorthanded.
> -- it takes even less time to train mechanical staff and Amtrak is hiring too I can't comment on this as I have no knowledge of what their training requirements are
> ...



I'm extremely curious as to your insight on how long hiring and training takes. Because it's not like walking into a job interview at a grocery store. Where IMO you'll probably know if you got the job by the time you leave. Most RR's the process from applications, physical testing (if required by the hiring RR), interviews, drug test & medical review, to start date can be anywhere from 8 weeks or more.


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## me_little_me (Nov 6, 2021)

Acela150 said:


> I'm extremely curious as to your insight on how long hiring and training takes. Because it's not like walking into a job interview at a grocery store. Where IMO you'll probably know if you got the job by the time you leave. Most RR's the process from applications, physical testing (if required by the hiring RR), interviews, drug test & medical review, to start date can be anywhere from 8 weeks or more.


Then there is the training on handling emergencies, learning first aid, CPR and use of defibrillators, learning the Amtrak Standards rules (and unlearning it when desired?) as well as many other things.


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## neroden (Nov 6, 2021)

Acela150 said:


> I'm extremely curious as to your insight on how long hiring and training takes.


Pfft, I just researched it and asked people who knew.

Stripped out the part where management leaves the applications on the desk without looking at them and causes internal delays -- like they do in normal times -- and looked at how long it actually takes when they're hiring aggressively. The actual training, not the "we are not calling you back for several weeks" part.

It does, indeed, look like Amtrak management may have been caught flat-footed. If so, it's their own damn fault (which is my point). They have had enough time; it was clear by June to anyone paying attention that vaccine mandates were coming. 

Amtrak will have had approximately six months to prepare when all is said and done. And as you noted, they can hire someone in eight weeks if they want to (which won't mean that an engineer is ready, but should be sufficient for filling most of the other positions). 

If they weren't prepping for this until a month ago, that's just mismanagement, nothing more. And if that's what happened, then... well, I think advocates may have to advocate to get some people who are capable of seeing six months ahead into Amtrak management.


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## AFS1970 (Nov 7, 2021)

As is evidenced by other workplaces, including some large cities, I don't think any management realized the size and scope of just how many employees did not want medical mandates. I am in the northeast so I see news from NYC more than other cities but the protests there have lead to back and forth accusations and the city implementing rarely used contingency plans. 

I have a coworker who told a story of his son who is a government employee and requested a medical waiver from the vaccine due to a specific medical history. He had to meet with a government doctor, who he said was looking up his condition on google as he was questioning him. Now his history is a relatively rare condition, but one that was also fairly well documented (I had seen about it in the news) as being a contra-indication for the vaccine. It took a lot of people very high up the department ladder to finally grant the exemption and even that was listed as temporary and under review. So I can see that his specific agency was simply not prepared for anyone even asking for this. 

The long and short is that I don't blame Amtrak management for not predicting something that a lot of other government and quite a few private sector bosses also didn't predict. regardless of what the final solution ends up being.


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## jis (Nov 7, 2021)

Here is a good article describing what actually caused the problems at Southwest and American, an analysis far removed from the typical political posturing amongst those who are wont to such....









Why American and Southwest Airlines Canceled Thousands of Flights


Don’t blame vaccines, but do blame the pandemic. And hope the airlines have fixed their problems by the busy Thanksgiving travel season.




www.texasmonthly.com





Amtrak has an analogous problem in the rail passenger context, as does several large and complex commuter agencies. 

One thing that both airlines management and unions have clearly stated is that the meltdown had little to do with vaccination issues notwithstanding how some politically woke amongs us here feel..


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## MARC Rider (Nov 7, 2021)

jis said:


> One thing that both airlines management and unions have clearly stated is that the meltdown had little to do with vaccination issues notwithstanding how some politically woke amongs us here feel..


Based on the article you cited, I think that tying in all the transportation delays and problems with the vaccination issues was a superbly effective piece of disinformation from the anti-vaxxers.

On the other hand, the first sentence of the article,
"When winds gusted up to nearly sixty miles per hour at Dallas–Fort Worth International Airport just before Halloween, American Airlines canceled dozens of flights. ."
sure caught my attention. If I were running an airline where the winds were gusting at 60, I guess, I'd cancel flights, too. Of course, as the article goes on, cancelling those dozens of flights shouldn't have resulted in thousands of flights being cancelled. The figures showing the drop in employees of the two airlines was also a real eye-opener.


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