# Canadian border reopening; how soon will international railrestored?



## Mailliw (Jul 19, 2021)

It's official; Canada just announced that fully vaccinated Americans will be allowed in starting August 9th for non-essential (ie leisure) travel. So how long can we expect it to take for Amtrak to restore international services on the Adirondack, Cascades, and Maple Leaf?


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## Brian Battuello (Jul 19, 2021)

Worth a new topic. With Amtrak vaguely hinting at new services, wonder how long it will take to restore existing ones?


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 19, 2021)

My guess is Sept, maybe by the Labour Day weekend. But that might be overly optimistic.


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## jiml (Jul 19, 2021)

My guess is the Cascades first - probably by September, the Adirondack mid-fall and the Maple Leaf never.


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## McIntyre2K7 (Jul 19, 2021)

Looks like Jan 1 is the first available trip for the Adirondack.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 19, 2021)

I checked a few days ago and both the Adirondack and Cascades were bookable starting in early January, although I'm hopeful they will resume operations sooner than that. 

The Maple Leaf was not bookable for any dates. If it doesn't resume operations, I'm curious how the process will proceed. Will it be officially discontinued or will it be another SL East situation? I'm also curious if any information will be provided as to potential connections between Amtrak and GO Transit. Although the stations are only half a mile apart, the bridge between them is not open to pedestrians or anyone in a car without a NEXUS card.


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## TC_NYC (Jul 19, 2021)

What makes people think the Maple Leaf is going to be killed? I would also help that Amtrak and WDOT (Washington State DOT) would restore at a minimum Seattle-Bellingham service before the return of college in September as Bellingham is a big college town on the Seattle-Vancouver route.


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## whosyourbuddy (Jul 19, 2021)

I'm going to guess that service will restart the day after move in day at most college campuses...

Safe travels,

- WYB


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## jiml (Jul 19, 2021)

TC_NYC said:


> What makes people think the Maple Leaf is going to be killed?


Since before the pandemic there have been a number of discussions in other threads regarding the future of the Maple Leaf. It had initially been suspended in Canada due to bridge repairs, then Covid. In the meantime, Ontario's GO Transit had developed a reasonably robust commuter service between Toronto and Niagara Falls, with some days up to 4 frequencies. One trip each way coincided very closely with the Maple Leaf schedule. With frequent commuter service on the route, the only future for the Maple Leaf would be to run sealed from the border to Toronto. While that could simplify customs formalities, it would also remove VIA's economic interest in operating the train in Canada and force Amtrak to do it themselves or contract the track owners (CN or Metrolinx) to do it for them. Then along came the pandemic, GO service was replaced with buses and there have been no recent developments.


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## Brian Battuello (Jul 19, 2021)

Dang. We have some friends that we'd really like to have a reunion in Montreal, but we need to arrive on December 29th. Maybe we can fly up and take the train home. Wonder if there is any chance it would start sooner?


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## jiml (Jul 19, 2021)

Brian Battuello said:


> Dang. We have some friends that we'd really like to have a reunion in Montreal, but we need to arrive on December 29th. Maybe we can fly up and take the train home. Wonder if there is any chance it would start sooner?


The Adirondack route would be beautiful that time of year.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> Since before the pandemic there have been a number of discussions in other threads regarding the future of the Maple Leaf. It had initially been suspended in Canada due to bridge repairs, then Covid. In the meantime, Ontario's GO Transit had developed a reasonably robust commuter service between Toronto and Niagara Falls, with some days up to 4 frequencies. One trip each way coincided very closely with the Maple Leaf schedule. With frequent commuter service on the route, the only future for the Maple Leaf would be to run sealed from the border to Toronto. While that could simplify customs formalities, it would also remove VIA's economic interest in operating the train in Canada and force Amtrak to do it themselves or contract the track owners (CN or Metrolinx) to do it for them. Then along came the pandemic, GO service was replaced with buses and there have been no recent developments.


How about Amtrak just running the Maple Leaf to the CND side of Niagara Falls? That's where the best views and most tourist stuff is (although the NY side has more tourist accommodations than it used to). Sure, you can walk across the bridge, but from the Amtrak station on the US side that's a bit of a hike IIRC. Or getting VIA & Amtrak to cooperate in a rational way. No train from the US to Toronto (the biggest city in CND after all) seems weird to me. And with a historic tourist trap on the way, it's doubly weird.


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## jis (Jul 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> Since before the pandemic there have been a number of discussions in other threads regarding the future of the Maple Leaf. It had initially been suspended in Canada due to bridge repairs, then Covid. In the meantime, Ontario's GO Transit had developed a reasonably robust commuter service between Toronto and Niagara Falls, with some days up to 4 frequencies. One trip each way coincided very closely with the Maple Leaf schedule. With frequent commuter service on the route, the only future for the Maple Leaf would be to run sealed from the border to Toronto. While that could simplify customs formalities, it would also remove VIA's economic interest in operating the train in Canada and force Amtrak to do it themselves or contract the track owners (CN or Metrolinx) to do it for them. Then along came the pandemic, GO service was replaced with buses and there have been no recent developments.


Remember, the Maple Leaf is not an Amtrak train. It is a PRIIA 209 New York State train. It is already operating as such between New York and Niagara Falls NY. I am almost certain that New York State will not fund its operation for an extended distance in Canada. Unless some outfit in Canada want to fund its Canadian operation I don;t see how it can continue to run in Canada.

Since in normal course of things Amtrak used to run it to Niagara Falls ON, I am sure that can be restored with ease.


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## jiml (Jul 19, 2021)

jis said:


> Remember, the Maple Leaf is not an Amtrak train. It is a PRIIA 209 New York State train. It is already operating as such between New York and Niagara Falls NY. I am almost certain that New York State will not fund its operation for an extended distance in Canada. Unless some outfit in Canada want to fund its Canadian operation I don;t see how it can continue to run in Canada.
> 
> Since in normal course of things Amtrak used to run it to Niagara Falls ON, I am sure that can be restored with ease.


I agree. I think eventually either GO will run to Niagara Falls, NY, or the Maple Leaf will run to Niagara Falls, ON, with a cross-platform connection. Either will require some additional track and platform work. There are logistical hurdles to overcome with either scenario unfortunately.


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## Mailliw (Jul 19, 2021)

My guess is that the Maple Leaf ends up being folded into the Empire Service and terminating in Niagara Falls, NY. Passengers will have to Clear customs on their own and then take GO Transit from Niagara Falls, ON to Toronto.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> My guess is the Cascades first - probably by September, the Adirondack mid-fall and the Maple Leaf never.


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## jiml (Jul 19, 2021)

Interestingly, the reporter on tonight's supper-hour newscast was positioned next to the Whirlpool bridge used by the Maple Leaf to speculate on the impact of the border re-opening.


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## jiml (Jul 19, 2021)

It appears that the US is not going to follow by opening the border southbound when the current deadline passes later this week. Any discussion of resumed train service is pointless until that happens.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> It appears that the US is not going to follow by opening the border southbound when the current deadline passes later this week. Any discussion of resumed train service is pointless until that happens.




Austin Health Officials just announced we were going back to Stage 4 of the COVID Protocols( Red) due to a Tripling of Positive Tests and Hospitalizations in the past 2 weeks!

99% were the Delta Variant with a few Cases of the Lambda Variant showing up! 100% were Unvaccinated persons!


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## MikefromCrete (Jul 19, 2021)

jiml said:


> Since before the pandemic there have been a number of discussions in other threads regarding the future of the Maple Leaf. It had initially been suspended in Canada due to bridge repairs, then Covid. In the meantime, Ontario's GO Transit had developed a reasonably robust commuter service between Toronto and Niagara Falls, with some days up to 4 frequencies. One trip each way coincided very closely with the Maple Leaf schedule. With frequent commuter service on the route, the only future for the Maple Leaf would be to run sealed from the border to Toronto. While that could simplify customs formalities, it would also remove VIA's economic interest in operating the train in Canada and force Amtrak to do it themselves or contract the track owners (CN or Metrolinx) to do it for them. Then along came the pandemic, GO service was replaced with buses and there have been no recent developments.



So, it's all just speculation.


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## jis (Jul 20, 2021)

MikefromCrete said:


> So, it's all just speculation.


Which is the nature of 80% of the prognostications on this forum anyway. So we are just being a student of the obvious, aren't we?


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## Exvalley (Jul 20, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> My guess is that the Maple Leaf ends up being folded into the Empire Service and terminating in Niagara Falls, NY. Passengers will have to Clear customs on their own and then take GO Transit from Niagara Falls, ON to Toronto.



I would not be interested unless the GO train was guaranteed to wait until I clear customs. If I miss the GO train due to the length of time to clear customs, I am not interested in waiting a couple of hours for the next train.


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## jis (Jul 20, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> I would not be interested unless the GO train was guaranteed to wait until I clear customs. If I miss the GO train due to the length of time to clear customs, I am not interested in waiting a couple of hours for the next train.


As a first approximation my guess would be that if the GO train for cross border traffic originated and terminated at Niagara Falls NY then it would be more likely to wait than if it was a local Canadian affair originating and terminating at Niagara Falls ON.

But of course, since all this is speculation, only time will tell.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 20, 2021)

jis said:


> As a first approximation my guess would be that if the GO train for cross border traffic originated and terminated at Niagara Falls NY then it would be more likely to wait than if it was a local Canadian affair originating and terminating at Niagara Falls ON.
> 
> But of course, since all this is speculation, only time will tell.


Let's hope if it does end up being a GO Train operation from the Border to Toronto, that it involves Trains and not Buses!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 20, 2021)

Canada is a beautiful country with friendly residents and I'm still looking forward to finally crossing the border on a train someday in the future. Unfortunately the motivation sapping experience of dealing with Canadian border dragons was already a deterrent and now they'll be able to add fake vaccines, bogus tests, and secret infections to their repertoire of unfounded accusations. In any case I hope those who have friends and family on the other side can be reunited soon! Once I was vaccinated the first thing I wanted to do was visit family again and it would suck to be stuck on the wrong side of a closed border in a situation like that.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 20, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Canada is a beautiful country with friendly residents and I'm still looking forward to crossing the border on a train someday in the future. Unfortunately the motivation sapping experience of dealing with Canadian border dragons was already a deterrent and now they'll be able to add fake vaccines, bogus tests, and secret infections to their repertoire of unfounded accusations. They don't seem to be nearly as aggressive with people who live near the border so I understand why some folks may think I've exaggerated prior experiences. In any case I hope those who have friends and family on the other side can be reunited soon!


Thumbs up for the last sentence. I do have family on the other side, who I hope to see soon. This trip will be by car, but I have crossed by all modes including walking. Most of my experiences with the officers on either side have been positive, or at least not too bad. But you never know, and there's the rub. Worth remembering that they are charged with a fairly impossible task. It will most likely never be as casual as it once was, pre-9/11. I'd love to see more cross-border rail connections, not fewer.


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## jiml (Jul 20, 2021)

GO Train service has resumed between Toronto and Niagara Falls, ON, with 4 frequencies on weekends only. Weekday demand is still low, but a minimum of 2 trips on weekdays is expected to resume by September.

Trains depart Toronto at 8:51, 12:51, 16:51 and 20:51. The trip takes 2 hours.

Trains depart Niagara Falls at 11:16, 15:16, 19:16 and 23:16. The trip takes 2 hours and 4 minutes.


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## Exvalley (Jul 20, 2021)

That GO station seems dangerously close to the falls, LOL.

Does the testing requirement before entry into Canada apply to driving as well as flying? I am assuming that it does.


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## jiml (Jul 20, 2021)

Gotta love publicity photos!


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## jiml (Jul 20, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> Does the testing requirement before entry into Canada apply to driving as well as flying? I am assuming that it does.


I'd wait about a week and then check. One newscast last night specifically said Americans crossing on land were exempt from both quarantine and testing. I believe that is wrong and the testing for land crossing is part of the new exemption. The government website says this:





COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




travel.gc.ca









COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




travel.gc.ca





If demand is such that this results in lengthy lines starting on August 9, I'd guess they'll quickly pivot to proof of vaccination only.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 20, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> That GO station seems dangerously close to the falls, LOL.
> 
> Does the testing requirement before entry into Canada apply to driving as well as flying? I am assuming that it does.


I've read the news reports on CBC ( I am assuming Canadian media are the most accurate on this) and the Canadian government websites. It certainly appears that both full vaccination completed at least 14 days prior to entry and a negative COVID test within 72 hours will be required for entry whether land or air. The only difference is for air it has to be within 72 hours of the flight departure while for a land crossing it has to be within 72 hours of presenting yourself at the border crossing.

I am following the issue closely because I have 2 planned Canadian ski trips this winter as well as maybe planning a ride on the Canadian in November (which I think I will push to March).


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## zephyr17 (Jul 20, 2021)

jiml said:


> I'd wait about a week and then check. One newscast last night specifically said Americans crossing on land were exempt from both quarantine and testing. I believe that is wrong and the testing for land crossing is part of the new exemption. The government website says this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They will be requiring that proof of vaccination and test results be uploaded to them on the ArriveCAN app or their website prior to arrival.

I think there may be some confusion because the current entry requirements for eligible travelers required both a test prior to entry and a test conducted at entry and 3 day quarantine while that test came back. They are dropping the test at entry and the three day quarantine, but a negative test within 72 hours prior to entry will still be required.


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## Exvalley (Jul 20, 2021)

So if you get selected for a random test upon arrival into Canada, is it safe to assume that you have to pay for that test?

I think that I know the answer, but I just wanted to confirm.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 20, 2021)

Don't know for sure but I would assume so.


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## ScottR (Jul 20, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> That GO station seems dangerously close to the falls, LOL.
> 
> Does the testing requirement before entry into Canada apply to driving as well as flying? I am assuming that it does.


I Did not know there was a train tunnel under the falls. I’m adding this route to my bucket list


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## jiml (Jul 20, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> So if you get selected for a random test upon arrival into Canada, is it safe to assume that you have to pay for that test?
> 
> I think that I know the answer, but I just wanted to confirm.


Since you did not request the test it's highly unlikely they could charge you for it. I would certainly kick off if they tried, although that might not help your case.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 20, 2021)

jiml said:


> Since you did not request the test it's highly unlikely they could charge you for it. I would certainly kick off if they tried, although that might not help your case.


Maybe if the Canadian Government paid for the Tests ($250-$300 is pricey even in CDN$)it would help the Tourism they're seeking with this rushed about face!


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## NapTown Jim (Jul 21, 2021)

Does this GO Train have luggage racks that will allow you to bring more than an airline sized carry on? I've looked at commuter trains into Chicago (Metra & South Shore Line) and they won't let you bring larger bags on board.


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## jiml (Jul 21, 2021)

NapTown Jim said:


> Does this GO Train have luggage racks that will allow you to bring more than an airline sized carry on? I've looked at commuter trains into Chicago (Metra & South Shore Line) and they won't let you bring larger bags on board.


These are commuter cars with no luggage storage at all. There are a few seat locations that have floor space in front of them that does not obstruct aisles or doors. In some cars this is where bicycles go.


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## Mailliw (Jul 21, 2021)

Good point, I hadn't thought of the luggage issue.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> These are commuter cars with no luggage storage at all. There are a few seat locations that have floor space in front of them that does not obstruct aisles or doors. In some cars this is where bicycles go.



If GO did become the option for cross-border travel I'm sure accommodations would be provided for luggage. Right now the GO summer service to Niagara has lots of room for bicycles which is very popular on that route. And now with the longer routes to Barrie and Kitchener as well as Niagara.....perhaps even a cafe could be provided. Westcoast Express that uses the same type of car has a cafe counter on runs between Vanvouver and Mission.

And I've found the seating on GO's newer cars on those longer runs of nearly 2 hrs....just fine.


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## jiml (Jul 21, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> If GO did become the option for cross-border travel I'm sure accommodations would be provided for luggage. Right now the GO summer service to Niagara has lots of room for bicycles which is very popular on that route. And now with the longer routes to Barrie and Kitchener as well as Niagara.....perhaps even a cafe could be provided. Westcoast Express that uses the same type of car has a cafe counter on runs between Vanvouver and Mission.
> 
> And I've found the seating on GO's newer cars on those longer runs of nearly 2 hrs....just fine.
> 
> ...


GO had experimented with a cafe car and a coffee trolley on the Barrie route and even had several regular coaches set up with tables in a "dinette"/computer desk configuration. I haven't been on the train for 2 years (for obvious reasons), but hadn't seen any of the tables in a long time before that. If still around they might be on the less-busy routes, since they affect seating capacity.


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## PaTrainFan (Jul 21, 2021)

Also, it will not be a two =-way street when Canada lifts its border restrictions. Though U.S. citizens and other exceptions are cleared:









US extends Covid-19 travel restrictions with Canada and Mexico through August 21 | CNN Politics


The Biden administration is extending non-essential travel restrictions for the US northern and southern borders until August 21.




www.cnn.com


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## west point (Jul 22, 2021)

A very slight complication might be if "Delta" starts a real rampage in either country. My state is a high no vaccination state and that worries some that the governor will finally have to back down on no restrictions.


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## supportamtrak (Jul 22, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> So if you get selected for a random test upon arrival into Canada, is it safe to assume that you have to pay for that test?
> 
> I think that I know the answer, but I just wanted to confirm.


The test is free. I crossed into Canada by land on 7/7/21 and had to be tested on the spot to avoid the 14 day quarantine.

You go through customs/immigration, then you drive into a tent after being handed a test kit; you self-test under supervision and you’re good to go. You get the results on your phone about 48 hours later.

Before showing up at the border, make sure to download the ”ArriveCAN” app and fill out the questionnaire.


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 24, 2021)

I'm looking forward to when they resume the Cascades because that morning train from Seattle has some of the best scenery in the entire system north of the Empire Builder route. I would love to do that in a dome car. 

I could see the Maple Leaf returning but what always baffled me is why Amtrak didn't market the stops it made on the Canadian side of the border. You would think that would give you a few additional riders each day with the addition of all those city pairings.


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## Willbridge (Jul 25, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> I'm looking forward to when they resume the Cascades because that morning train from Seattle has some of the best scenery in the entire system north of the Empire Builder route. I would love to do that in a dome car.
> 
> I could see the Maple Leaf returning but what always baffled me is why Amtrak didn't market the stops it made on the Canadian side of the border. You would think that would give you a few additional riders each day with the addition of all those city pairings.


A friend and I made the GN _Morning_ _International _from Seattle to Vancouver, BC and booked travel in the Parlor-Observation-Lounge. It was nice but that winter day a dome coach freed up off of the _Empire Builder _was in the consist and we ended up spending most of the trip in the dome.


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 25, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> I could see the Maple Leaf returning but what always baffled me is why Amtrak didn't market the stops it made on the Canadian side of the border. You would think that would give you a few additional riders each day with the addition of all those city pairings.




If you looked at an Amtrak Timetable for the Maple Leaf right up until Covid......unless you read the footnotes.....Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Grimsby, Aldershot, Oakville and Toronto are listed and look just like any other Amtrak stop in the schedule.



https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/20928/maple-leaf-schedule-031620.pdf



The former CN Station on the Maple Leaf route in Downtown Hamilton (pop 700,000) was closed and the stop moved to Aldershot years ago. But a big announcement is being made tomorrow and rumoured to be the start of all-day GO Train service between Hamilton West Harbour (old CN Station site) and Toronto. If the Maple Leaf does return....some mods would be required to the tracks at West Harbour to permit it to stop there


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 25, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> If you looked at an Amtrak Timetable for the Maple Leaf right up until Covid......unless you read the footnotes.....Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Grimsby, Aldershot, Oakville and Toronto are listed and look just like any other Amtrak stop in the schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good News indeed.

Most of my trips on the Maple Leaf were to Niagara Falls and Oakville, and I always wondered why the stop for Hamilton was out in the boonies @ Aldershot.( although I did know that connections for Windsor could be made there as I did one time).

The Texas Eagle has a similar thing with the Station for Waco, a City of 100,000 plus and home to Baylor University, being @ McGregor, an old small Farming/ Ranching town located 20 miles to the West.


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## jiml (Jul 26, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> ...some mods would be required to the tracks at West Harbour to permit it to stop there


Yes, the current Niagara Falls GO service bypasses West Harbour. No platforms on the main line and even the single-train storage track to the right in this picture has been severed.


It certainly looks like a connection on that side may be the plan and part of the announcement, which might involve other developments for the Grimsby Sub.


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## jiml (Jul 26, 2021)

Not as all-encompassing as expected, but still good news:



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/all-day-go-trains-1.6117376



(The connection to this topic is the restoration of the Maple Leaf on this route.)


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## neroden (Jul 26, 2021)

jiml said:


> Yes, the current Niagara Falls GO service bypasses West Harbour. No platforms on the main line and even the single-train storage track to the right in this picture has been severed.
> View attachment 23643
> 
> It certainly looks like a connection on that side may be the plan and part of the announcement, which might involve other developments for the Grimsby Sub.



The long-term plan was definitely to have Niagara Falls service stop at West Harbour; I am not sure whether theyt are merely planning to connect the platform track to the mainline, or whether they're planning to build passenger-exclusive tracks parallel to the mainline for some distance. There is enough width in the right-of-way for passenger-exclusive tracks, and GO has generally preferred passenger-exclusive tracks (a good decision on their part), so I suspect the plan is actually to build an entire corridor of passenger-exclusive tracks. (Which would be awesome, BTW).


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 26, 2021)

neroden said:


> The long-term plan was definitely to have Niagara Falls service stop at West Harbour; I am not sure whether theyt are merely planning to connect the platform track to the mainline, or whether they're planning to build passenger-exclusive tracks parallel to the mainline for some distance........




The Stair Access Structure is straddling half a platform now and appears that platform might be doubled in width in the future to also serve the Grimbsy Sub track on the right.


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## jiml (Jul 26, 2021)

neroden said:


> The long-term plan was definitely to have Niagara Falls service stop at West Harbour; I am not sure whether theyt are merely planning to connect the platform track to the mainline, or whether they're planning to build passenger-exclusive tracks parallel to the mainline for some distance. There is enough width in the right-of-way for passenger-exclusive tracks, and GO has generally preferred passenger-exclusive tracks (a good decision on their part), so I suspect the plan is actually to build an entire corridor of passenger-exclusive tracks. (Which would be awesome, BTW).


Agreed, although I think the plan (based on 2018 information - who knows post-Covid?) was for Metrolinx (GO's parent) to buy the Grimsby sub and rehab it in its entirety with concrete ties, upgraded switches and signalling, etc. Freight traffic would be rerouted or limited to overnights. Building entirely new tracks might render redundant some of the work that has already been done at other stations on the route. The key consideration for GO is the fact that this is a growing commuter area with only one really good highway. The route will be a success as soon as the trains start running with some regularity.


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## jiml (Jul 26, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> The Stair Access Structure is straddling half a platform now and appears that platform might be doubled in width in the future to also serve the Grimbsy Sub track on the right.
> 
> View attachment 23650


That would be logical.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 26, 2021)

jiml said:


> Not as all-encompassing as expected, but still good news:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent News indeed!( I'm not a Bus fan!).


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## west point (Jul 26, 2021)

The one wild card for reopening the border is what will happen in the next month with the Delta variant.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 26, 2021)

west point said:


> The one wild card for reopening the border is what will happen in the next month with the Delta variant.


Sadly True as COVID explodes all over the US!!!


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## NS VIA Fan (Jul 27, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Excellent News indeed!( I'm not a Bus fan!).




Besides the new hourly service from Hamilton West Harbour Station.....GO is also reintroducing 2 trains to Toronto (dropped during Covid...now 4 in total eachway) departing from the Hamilton GO Centre (1.6 km south) This is the nicely restored former TH&B Station that once had through service to Buffalo, New York GCT, Boston, Cleveland and Pittsburgh. The GO Centre also has hourly bus service to Toronto via the QEW.




And with all these new trains feeding into the Lakeshore line.......GO will offer every 15 min daytime frequencies on the 90 km between Oakville-Toronto Union-Oshawa.

(I'm going to give it a couple more months......then I might feel comfortable for a trip to Ontario for some GO riding!)


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 27, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Besides the new hourly service from Hamilton West Harbour Station.....GO is also reintroducing 2 trains to Toronto (dropped during Covid...now 4 in total eachway) departing from the Hamilton GO Centre (1.6 km south) This is the nicely restored former TH&B Station that once had through service to Buffalo, New York GCT, Boston, Cleveland and Pittsburgh. The GO Centre also has hourly bus service to Toronto via the QEW.
> 
> View attachment 23663
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, wish I was there to ride it!

My relatives in Oakville are going to take their first trip to Toronto in 16 Months on the GO Train now that they're Vaccinated!

My retired BIL used to be a Daily Commuter and I've ridden many times while visiting, did find it a little pricey for a Commuter Line, but it's Canada eh?


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## jebr (Jul 27, 2021)

CBSA has authorized a strike for border agents. Wonder how this will impact the reopening (particularly with preclearance facilities away from the border.)

From the Duluth News Tribune:



> Just as many U.S. residents were celebrating their ability to travel to Canada starting Aug. 9, a strike by Canadian border officers threatens to effectively shut down the border.
> 
> Strike votes were held earlier in July. The unions for more than 8,500 Canada Border Services Agency officers announced Tuesday that an overwhelming majority of their members voted to strike as soon as Aug. 6.
> 
> While a number of border officers would be deemed essential workers and required to stay on the job, a strike would almost certainly cause delays for those traveling by air and land.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 27, 2021)

That will probably preclude any resumption of cross border rail service until the strike is settled. Thinking Cascades here, which I think will he first out of the gate, since WashDOT is committed to resuming rail service north of Seattle once the border is opened.

CBSA has no Preclearance facilities. While the treaty establishing Preclearance rights allow reciprocal rights for Canada to operate Preclearance in the US, Canada has so far not chosen to exercise those rights and has no Preclearance facilities in the US. US Preclearance facilities in Canada are staffed by US CBP agents.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 27, 2021)

Border workers vote to strike, putting Canada's reopening plans at risk | CBC News oops, the spanner in the works.


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## Anderson (Jul 28, 2021)

jebr said:


> CBSA has authorized a strike for border agents. Wonder how this will impact the reopening (particularly with preclearance facilities away from the border.)
> 
> From the Duluth News Tribune:


Couldn't they have just gone on strike...oh, any time in the last year and a half, when it wouldn't have affected anyone?

(Actually, come to think of it, a deep enough strike might have led to some border-jumping...)


----------



## OBS (Jul 28, 2021)

Anderson said:


> Couldn't they have just gone on strike...oh, any time in the last year and a half, when it wouldn't have affected anyone?
> 
> (Actually, come to think of it, a deep enough strike might have led to some border-jumping...)


Then they wouldn't have had any leverage because no one would care....


----------



## jiml (Jul 28, 2021)

jebr said:


> CBSA has authorized a strike for border agents. Wonder how this will impact the reopening (particularly with preclearance facilities away from the border.)


Just to clarify, CBSA is "management" in this case, so did not authorize the strike. The union that authorized strike action is the Public Service Alliance. 



OBS said:


> Then they wouldn't have had any leverage because no one would care....



Exactly. This puts the government between the proverbial rock and hard place. They were so anxious to re-open the border to save tourism, that the union sees a window to settle many long-standing issues. Key among these is wage parity with police officers.


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## Mailliw (Jul 28, 2021)

Speaking of preclearance; isn't construction on the actual facility at Gare Centrale de Montreal complete? If it's just a matter of arranging staffing then maybe Adirondack service won't resume until it's operational. It would certainly make processesing easier, especially with additional Covid19 measures, than stopping the train in the middle of nowhere for 2 hours.


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## west point (Jul 29, 2021)

IMHO Do not expect any opening of the border either way until both government's CDC equivalent determines what and where "Delta" finally ends up. How it spread will be a big determination. Even if 90% of the persons not vaccinated tomorrow with the 2d in 4 weeks remember that full immunity will not come into effect for 6 weeks from the first vaccination. We IMO will see a lot of 1st and some second vaccinations will get "Delta" before immunity can kick in.

I have a request for all here who are not vaccinated. Write a sealed letter to be opened only after death or very bad case of C-19. State why you felt that vaccination was not necessary. Write one of the letters to each of your important persons telling how you feel towards each. If you are still alive in 3 years tear up the letters.


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## jiml (Jul 29, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Speaking of preclearance; isn't construction on the actual facility at Gare Centrale de Montreal complete? If it's just a matter of arranging staffing then maybe Adirondack service won't resume until it's operational. It would certainly make processesing easier, especially with additional Covid19 measures, than stopping the train in the middle of nowhere for 2 hours.


The short answer is "kind of", but even pre-Covid the hurdles were numerous - especially in the area of who pays for what.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 29, 2021)

jiml said:


> The short answer is "kind of", but even pre-Covid the hurdles were numerous - especially in the area of who pays for what.


Diplomats!


----------



## Wolverine72 (Jul 29, 2021)

So far this is a one-way street. The U.S. has not opened it’s northern border. How does this impact returning U.S. citizens or trains has not been made clear.


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## jiml (Jul 29, 2021)

Wolverine72 said:


> So far this is a one-way street. The U.S. has not opened it’s northern border. How does this impact returning U.S. citizens or trains has not been made clear.


I believe US citizens are exempt from the closure. It's only Canadians that are not allowed.


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## jis (Jul 29, 2021)

jiml said:


> I believe US citizens are exempt from the closure. It's only Canadians that are not allowed.


Right. US Citizens and Permanent Residents (Green Card holders) are generally allowed to return home.

Since there are no trains running and none are likely to run possibly until next year, no one has made a train specific statement. I am sure they will when the time comes.


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## Wolverine72 (Jul 29, 2021)

Right. We can’t have those Canadians crossing our border.  
They can fly over it but can’t drive or even walk across it.
But hey, the southern border is wide open for all to enter.


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## jis (Jul 30, 2021)

After watching some shrill nonsense being posted here I thought it might be good to bring in some facts to the table 









Travel Restrictions - Fact Sheet







mx.usembassy.gov


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## zephyr17 (Jul 30, 2021)

Wolverine72 said:


> Right. We can’t have those Canadians crossing our border.
> They can fly over it but can’t drive or even walk across it.
> But hey, the southern border is wide open for all to enter.


It's not. Both Canada and Mexico land borders are under the same, essential travel only, rules.


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## Mailliw (Aug 7, 2021)

Well, at least one crisis had been averted; the CBSA has reached a deal with the union.


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## NS VIA Fan (Aug 7, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Well, at least one crisis had been averted; the CBSA has reached a deal with the union.




The land border is still going to be a mess on Monday. Watching a couple of news reports......there's a lot of people that just haven't looked at the requirements such as the pre-arrival testing, fully vaccinated for 14 days and uploading all that information to the ArriveCAN App before you get to the border. Then there's those Canadians that think it's open southbound too and are just going to get turned around and sent back by US CBP.....adding to the line-up.


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## Exvalley (Aug 7, 2021)

We plan to go to Quebec on August 28th. That gives us some time to see if the border is a mess. Our Covid-19 tests have been scheduled, but can be canceled.


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## Triley (Aug 7, 2021)

TC_NYC said:


> What makes people think the Maple Leaf is going to be killed? I would also help that Amtrak and WDOT (Washington State DOT) would restore at a minimum Seattle-Bellingham service before the return of college in September as Bellingham is a big college town on the Seattle-Vancouver route.



There is currently nowhere the Cascades would be allowed to park the trainset while waiting to turn and run back to Seattle. I've asked this same question.



Seaboard92 said:


> I'm looking forward to when they resume the Cascades because that morning train from Seattle has some of the best scenery in the entire system north of the Empire Builder route. I would love to do that in a dome car.
> 
> I could see the Maple Leaf returning but what always baffled me is why Amtrak didn't market the stops it made on the Canadian side of the border. You would think that would give you a few additional riders each day with the addition of all those city pairings.



I _loved_ when we were even running Superliner sets to Canada on the morning up/evening back. It certainly made for a beautiful commute!



Wolverine72 said:


> So far this is a one-way street. The U.S. has not opened it’s northern border. How does this impact returning U.S. citizens or trains has not been made clear.



This is one of the things that has _really_ irritated me... American politicians pushed Canada to open the border, but they won't push for reciprocation by the US? And we wonder why many countries think American politicians are full of themselves.



jis said:


> Right. US Citizens and Permanent Residents (Green Card holders) are generally allowed to return home.
> 
> Since there are no trains running and none are likely to run possibly until next year, no one has made a train specific statement. I am sure they will when the time comes.



Even if the American side of the border does not reopen to Canadians this month, the Cascades have been slated to resume service to Canada, unless WSDOT changes their mind.



zephyr17 said:


> It's not. Both Canada and Mexico land borders are under the same, essential travel only, rules.



The land borders only, yeah. Which how does that make sense?



NS VIA Fan said:


> The land border is still going to be a mess on Monday. Watching a couple of news reports......there's a lot of people that just haven't looked at the requirements such as the pre-arrival testing, fully vaccinated for 14 days and uploading all that information to the ArriveCAN App before you get to the border. Then there's those Canadians that think it's open southbound too and are just going to get turned around and sent back by US CBP.....adding to the line-up.



Yup, it's going to be an absolute disaster both directions. I have a feeling there's going to be quite a few rebookings on my SEA-YVR flight next Thursday too...


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 8, 2021)

I always loved it when I caught a Superliner set to and from Vancouver, too. Much preferred them to the Talgos on that run. Better views, especially when it had Sightseer (rode it at least once when it had a Diner/Lounge instead of a Sightseer) and better seats.


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## jiml (Aug 8, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> I always loved it when I caught a Superliner set to and from Vancouver, too. Much preferred them to the Talgos on that run. Better views, especially when it had Sightseer (rode it at least once when it had a Diner/Lounge instead of a Sightseer) and better seats.


Slightly off-topic, but I remember when the International had Superliners. They looked impressive parked in Toronto's Union Station.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Aug 8, 2021)

jiml said:


> Slightly off-topic, but I remember when the International had Superliners. They looked impressive parked in Toronto's Union Station.




They looked even more impressive on shortline _Goderich-Exeter Railway_ track via Guelph and Stratford.

What's an Amtrak train doing here?? !


----------



## jiml (Aug 8, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> They looked even more impressive on shortline _Goderich-Exeter Railway_ track via Guelph and Stratford.
> 
> What's an Amtrak train doing here?? !


I have a picture somewhere!


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Aug 8, 2021)

jiml said:


> I have a picture somewhere!




My last ride on the 'International' was on a Superliner between Toronto and London back in 2002. I have video somewhere.

.......and here's an interesting TSB Report where a Superliner set was involved in a grade crossing accident on the Goodrich-Exeter Railway.....east of Guelph in 1999.



https://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/1999/r99s0100/r99s0100.pdf


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## jiml (Aug 8, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> .......and here's an interesting TSB Report where a Superliner set was involved in a grade crossing accident on the Goodrich-Exeter Railway.....east of Guelph in 1999.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/rail/1999/r99s0100/r99s0100.pdf


Although I've read similar reports before, that one was particularly interesting and should be required reading for anyone who thinks they can beat a train through a level crossing.


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## jis (Aug 8, 2021)

Triley said:


> Even if the American side of the border does not reopen to Canadians this month, the Cascades have been slated to resume service to Canada, unless WSDOT changes their mind.


As I said, when the time comes there will be an announcement. So far I have seen nothing. That of course does not mean that there won't be something coming out in the next minute 

The *current notice posted in the US Federal Register* is for border restrictions valid upto August 21st. So I suppose either they can let it lapse on that date or post a new notice with a new date.


----------



## Triley (Aug 8, 2021)

jis said:


> As I said, when the time comes there will be an announcement. So far I have seen nothing. That of course does not mean that there won;t be something coming out in the next minute
> 
> The *current notice posted in the US Federal Register* is for for border restrictions valid upto August 21st. So I suppose either they can let it lapse on that date or post a new notice with a new date.



I know what you said. I'm trying to give the insight of someone "in the know" that WSDOT is anxious to get service rolling again, with or without the US side being open to Canadians.


----------



## Chris I (Sep 14, 2021)

Any updates on this from people who have contacts at WSDOT? The border is open for vaccinated travelers, and I haven't heard anything? We are considering a trip up to Vancouver at the end of the year, but the booking system only shows options with a bus transfer in Seattle.


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## punkrawker4783 (Sep 15, 2021)

Chris I said:


> Any updates on this from people who have contacts at WSDOT? The border is open for vaccinated travelers, and I haven't heard anything? We are considering a trip up to Vancouver at the end of the year, but the booking system only shows options with a bus transfer in Seattle.


US still hasn’t opened to non-essential travel. We went to Canada a week ago and there was hardly anyone crossing, so between those two things, probably not anytime soon. The OBS are bidding right now for October pickups and there’s no Vancouver BC (or even Bellingham) trains to bid on.


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## Exvalley (Sep 15, 2021)

punkrawker4783 said:


> We went to Canada a week ago and there was hardly anyone crossing


That was my experience as well over Labor Day weekend. The border was pretty much a ghost town.


----------



## joelkfla (Sep 15, 2021)

punkrawker4783 said:


> US still hasn’t opened to non-essential travel. We went to Canada a week ago and there was hardly anyone crossing, so between those two things, probably not anytime soon. The OBS are bidding right now for October pickups and there’s no Vancouver BC (or even Bellingham) trains to bid on.


You wouldn't want to have people bidding for lines that may not materialize. Much safer to pull from the extras board (or shift junior people around when the time comes, if the union allows that.)


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## leccy (Sep 15, 2021)

jiml said:


> That would be logical.


Oddity - the latest (4th September) timetable shows one weekday commuter service to and from Niagara stopping at West Harbour. This has to be an error, shirley?


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## Cal (Sep 16, 2021)

punkrawker4783 said:


> US still hasn’t opened to non-essential travel. We went to Canada a week ago and there was hardly anyone crossing, so between those two things, probably not anytime soon. The OBS are bidding right now for October pickups and there’s no Vancouver BC (or even Bellingham) trains to bid on.


Another employee from the Seattle base on here? Wow!


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## Triley (Sep 16, 2021)

Chris I said:


> Any updates on this from people who have contacts at WSDOT? The border is open for vaccinated travelers, and I haven't heard anything? We are considering a trip up to Vancouver at the end of the year, but the booking system only shows options with a bus transfer in Seattle.



Honestly, theres no update. The current holdup has to do with dealings with the CBSA, and entry requirements/testing.



punkrawker4783 said:


> US still hasn’t opened to non-essential travel. We went to Canada a week ago and there was hardly anyone crossing, so between those two things, probably not anytime soon. The OBS are bidding right now for October pickups and there’s no Vancouver BC (or even Bellingham) trains to bid on.



Flights across the border have been completely full, and there appears to have enough demand that the Victoria Clipper is resuming.



joelkfla said:


> You wouldn't want to have people bidding for lines that may not materialize. Much safer to pull from the extras board (or shift junior people around when the time comes, if the union allows that.)



They may not force assign new jobs to anyone (as in, push folks in a regular position). Jobs may be ran off the extra forward for a limited amount of time, then must be put up for bid.


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## punkrawker4783 (Sep 16, 2021)

Cal said:


> Another employee from the Seattle base on here? Wow!


Not really, but I do live with one.


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## Cal (Sep 16, 2021)

punkrawker4783 said:


> Not really, but I do live with one.


Gotchya.


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## punkrawker4783 (Sep 16, 2021)

Triley said:


> Flights across the border have been completely full, and there appears to have enough demand that the Victoria Clipper is resuming.


Perhaps because the requirements are different for fliers than ground crossings? Victoria Clipper is returning 4 days a week, Fr-Mo, probably to “test it out”.


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## Barb Stout (Sep 16, 2021)

Triley said:


> Jobs may be ran off the extra forward for a limited amount of time, then must be put up for bid.


What does "Jobs may be ran off the extra forward..." mean?


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## Triley (Sep 16, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> What does "Jobs may be ran off the extra forward..." mean?



Extra board.... autocorrect..


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## zephyr17 (Sep 16, 2021)

punkrawker4783 said:


> Perhaps because the requirements are different for fliers than ground crossings? Victoria Clipper is returning 4 days a week, Fr-Mo, probably to “test it out”.


The published requirements for entry to Canada are the same for both ground and air travel, the only difference is timing requirements for the COVID PCR test. For air travel it is 72 hours prior to departure of the flight to Canada. For land entry it is 72 hours prior to presenting yourself for inspection at a port of entry.

That is different from current US entry requirements. Air travelers must have a negative COVID test within 3 days of flight departure. Land entry requires nothing, except being a US Citizen or permanent resident.

The following is _pure speculation. _I can see CBSA having an issue with the fact that Immigration inspection doesn't take place until you are well into Canada. Some people won't meet requirements. There inevitably will be people who don't bother researching what the requirements are or think they can finesse it, or just didn't get their test results on time. CBSA can't just say "turn around" and send them back across the line, they are already well into Canada. All things being equal there will probably more of them now than pre-pandemic since requirements are higher and are more involved. They have to do something with those people and they may not have the same levels of facilities to deal with them that they do at YVR. They need to figure out ways they can deal with it. I can think of several ways, including requiring Amtrak inspection of the ArriveCan information on or shortly after boarding much like airlines must verify documents at check in, reducing the number of ineligible people reaching Canada. Moving the Immigration inspection to the border until the heightened pandemic requirements are lifted, which would be a really crappy option. They need to negotiate with Amtrak but they'll be pretty much one sided. CBSA had the full force of Canadian law and the Canadian government on its side.

Remember, too, this is the agency that delayed and nearly derailed the second train because they didn't want to staff the station for it. It took Vancouver and the BC provincial government howling to Ottawa to get them to do it. Hopefully restoring service won't require that kind of escalation. Especially because my understanding is a lot of Canadians are unhappy with the border being reopened and the Canadian government is really unhappy that the US did not reciprocate opening the land border.


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## Triley (Sep 16, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> The published requirements for entry to Canada are the same for both ground and air travel, the only difference is timing requirements for the COVID PCR test. For air travel it is 72 hours prior to departure of the flight to Canada. For land entry it is 72 hours prior to presenting yourself for inspection at a port of entry.
> 
> That is different from current US entry requirements. Air travelers must have a negative COVID test within 3 days of flight departure. Land entry requires nothing, except being a US Citizen or permanent resident.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure what they're referring to in regards to entry requirements is that Americans can enter Canada for leisure by ground or air, however, Canadians can _only_ enter for leisure travel by air, _not_ by ground. So as you said, the US land border is still closed.

However, you are correct on the CBSA issues. They've been talking about hashing out a way to stop at the Peace Arch and have them board to do some sort of inspection. The big issue I see though, is that there's not a lot of room at Pacific Central to set up any additional facilities. As such, I don't know how they would be able to process random arrival Covid tests. Perhaps they could do random tests at the Peace Arch, and then send the train on the way. By the time the train arrives in VAC, they would have the results.

Also, CBSA _does_ detain people at the station to send them back on the next train if need be. Or, if they really want to get rid of them in a rush, they will send them to the US border via bonded courier. However, it rarely comes to this, and I don't think it would change once service to Canada resumes either. Just as the airlines are required to check for all documents necessary for entry to Canada (including a non-expired negative Covid test), I'm sure Amtrak will be required to as well. The airlines are being very strict about following the policies, as they should be. All personnel on the Amtrak Cascades who were responsible for trains to Canada were just as thorough. There are very hefty fines for carriers allowing someone entry in to Canada who doesn't have the proper documentation.


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## Willbridge (Sep 16, 2021)

Triley said:


> I'm pretty sure what they're referring to in regards to entry requirements is that Americans can enter Canada for leisure by ground or air, however, Canadians can _only_ enter for leisure travel by air, _not_ by ground. So as you said, the US land border is still closed.
> 
> However, you are correct on the CBSA issues. They've been talking about hashing out a way to stop at the Peace Arch and have them board to do some sort of inspection. The big issue I see though, is that there's not a lot of room at Pacific Central to set up any additional facilities. As such, I don't know how they would be able to process random arrival Covid tests. Perhaps they could do random tests at the Peace Arch, and then send the train on the way. By the time the train arrives in VAC, they would have the results.
> 
> Also, CBSA _does_ detain people at the station to send them back on the next train if need be. Or, if they really want to get rid of them in a rush, they will send them to the US border via bonded courier. However, it rarely comes to this, and I don't think it would change once service to Canada resumes either. Just as the airlines are required to check for all documents necessary for entry to Canada (including a non-expired negative Covid test), I'm sure Amtrak will be required to as well. The airlines are being very strict about following the policies, as they should be. All personnel on the Amtrak Cascades who were responsible for trains to Canada were just as thorough. There are very hefty fines for carriers allowing someone entry in to Canada who doesn't have the proper documentation.


When I rode the GN _Internationals _Canadian border personnel boarded northbound at Mt. Vernon. I think they would have to do that if they wanted to have enough time to turn someone back without entering Canada. As their contemporary views of rail passengers are well-known I can't imagine them doing it.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 17, 2021)

Thanks Triley. I know there have always been people whom CBSA has turned around, I think my point was, all things being equal, there would probably more entry denials now simply because there is more required and it is more involved now. For instance, I can't help but think quite a few people will screw up on the test alone, either wrong timing or wrong test.

I know Amtrak personnel have always been scrupulous about making sure passengers have the proper documentation. I've ridden thest train many, many times. There is more now, not just vaccination cards, but timely COVID tests and right kind of test, PCR, not antigen. Plus a completed ArriveCan application. I would almost think CBSA would want Amtrak to check the ArriveCan app on the passengers' phones, which should have everything in it.

Either way, I realize there is quite a more involved than rolling the train and CBSA staffing Pacific Central. I just hope CBSA has a goal of trying to get the service safely resumed. I am just a bit fearful they'll try to block it through excessive demands. That fear is based on nothing more than CBSA's history with the continuation of the second train past the Olympics.

I am not booked to Vancouver until March 25, 2022 and that is on the morning train. Hopefully everything will be worked long before then.


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## Triley (Sep 17, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> There is more now, not just vaccination cards, but timely COVID tests and right kind of test, PCR, not antigen. Plus a completed ArriveCan application. I would almost think CBSA would want Amtrak to check the ArriveCan app on the passengers' phones, which should have everything in it.
> 
> Either way, I realize there is quite a more involved than rolling the train and CBSA staffing Pacific Central. I just hope CBSA has a goal of trying to get the service safely resumed. I am just a bit fearful they'll try to block it through excessive demands. That fear is based on nothing more than CBSA's history with the continuation of the second train past the Olympics.
> 
> I am not booked to Vancouver until March 25, 2022 and that is on the morning train. Hopefully everything will be worked long before then.



There will be no need to show their vaccine card, as that will be uploaded on to the ArriveCan app, which once the form is filled out, (for most travellers) displays a letter code that says if the vaccine card has been uploaded or not.

I will report that unless it's the upper decision makers at the CBSA who are trying to block it, that it's likely not happening. As I commute mostly in full uniform, I have had both CBP and CBSA agents excitedly ask if I was on-duty/if we were running across the border, then ask if there was any news on when service should resume. The local agents are all anxiously waiting!

Also, without saying too much, stay booked on the morning northbound, How are you getting back?


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## OBS (Sep 17, 2021)

Triley said:


> There will be no need to show their vaccine card, as that will be uploaded on to the ArriveCan app, which once the form is filled out, (for most travellers) displays a letter code that says if the vaccine card has been uploaded or not.
> 
> I will report that unless it's the upper decision makers at the CBSA who are trying to block it, that it's likely not happening. As I commute mostly in full uniform, I have had both CBP and CBSA agents excitedly ask if I was on-duty/if we were running across the border, then ask if there was any news on when service should resume. The local agents are all anxiously waiting!
> 
> Also, without saying too much, stay booked on the morning northbound, How are you getting back?


After visiting Canada, do we need negative Covid test to return to USA as well?


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## zephyr17 (Sep 17, 2021)

Triley said:


> Also, without saying too much, stay booked on the morning northbound, How are you getting back?


I am planning to take the Cascades back, but have not made the return reservation yet.

I suspect that the US may change the land entry requirements once they open up to non-citizens/permanent residents and will start to require a negative test, as they do for air travel. I am holding off making the return reservation until they announce the policies for land crossing once the US opens land borders more fully, so I know whether I have to build in a layover for getting test results.

The trip is taking the Canadian to Toronto and back. Usually my ultimate destination is New York, taking the Maple Leaf the morning after the Canadian's arrival. I decided against that this time because I didn't want to cross the border another 2 times under current conditions and my uncertainty as to whether the would implement US testing requirements and needing lto build in more extra days to get that done. Plus the Maple Leaf isn't running.  I am pretty confident about the Cascades returning to service by March, much less so about the Maple Leaf. BTW, both the Cascades and the Adirondack are bookable starting in January, but the Maple Leaf cross-border service isn't back in Arrow at all. I know it has to be coordinated with VIA, and also with the much improved Metrolynx rail service to Niagara Falls, ON, there is speculation that VIA may not be much interested in it any more 

As it stands, I built in a 3 day layover in Vancouver to allow for test results to be returned in case I am selected for random testing and also have something to show for the nebulous quarantine _plan_ requirement ("plan" being to just stay put in Vancouver if I become symptomatic). I normally just arrive on the morning Cascades and connect directly to that afternoon's Canadian. I am doubtful that pushing off in a roomette for 4 nights immediately on arrival would pass muster as a quarantine plan. That quarantine plan requirement is causing a lot of confusion on boards like Trip Advisor, no one knows what it is supposed to entail. Consensus seems to be coalescing around just having a hotel booked for the first nights after arrival.


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## Exvalley (Sep 17, 2021)

OBS said:


> After visiting Canada, do we need negative Covid test to return to USA as well?


You do not - at least if you are entering by land. I can not speak from personal experience in regard to air travel.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 17, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> You do not - at least if you are entering by land. I can not speak from personal experience in regard to air travel.


A negative test is required for arrival by air for everyone, per current published policy.

While I have no inside knowledge, I suspect that not requiring tests for land arrivals may well change once the land borders are opened to non-citizens/permanent residents.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 17, 2021)

OBS said:


> After visiting Canada, do we need negative Covid test to return to USA as well?


Americans returning by land do not require a test. Americans returning by air will need a recent test (3 days before arrival) and without one I believe they block you from boarding the aircraft to avoid being fined on arrival. Or at least that was my understanding the last time I looked into it. Travel beyond North America gets a lot more complicated. Rules and interpretations keep changing so I would advise bookmarking each country's travel restrictions.


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## OBS (Sep 17, 2021)

Thanks everyone....We are flying into Toronto next month, and did not even think about needing it for the return into USA....


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## zephyr17 (Sep 17, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Americans returning by land do not require a test. Americans returning by air will need a recent test (3 days before arrival) and without one I believe they block you from boarding the aircraft to avoid being fined on arrival. Or at least that was my understanding the last time I looked into it. Travel beyond North America gets a lot more complicated. Rules and interpretations keep changing so I would advise bookmarking each country's travel restrictions.


Yeah, the test requirement is in TIMATIC, which is what the airlines use to verify entry documentation requirements, so they will deny boarding.


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## jiml (Sep 17, 2021)

Just a reminder that Covid tests in Canada are not free for travel. The going rate is around $250 and up. That adds quite a premium to what might appear a good deal for airfare - especially for a couple or family.


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## zephyr17 (Sep 17, 2021)

jiml said:


> Just a reminder that Covid tests in Canada are not free for travel. The going rate is around $250 and up. That adds quite a premium to what might appear a good deal for airfare - especially for a couple or family.


That's a real shame. I know that in researching for upcoming trips to Canada I found I can get a free PCR test down in City of Seattle with pretty quick results for any reason. People who are being tested because of exposure or being symptomatic get priority, but it's free for everyone. You don't even have to be a Seattle or King County resident.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 17, 2021)

jiml said:


> Just a reminder that Covid tests in Canada are not free for travel. The going rate is around $250 and up. That adds quite a premium to what might appear a good deal for airfare - especially for a couple or family.


Wow, the Canadian Government must think people who want to visit will think this is OK!

Even here in the Third World, aka Texas, Tests are available for $40 from Private firms and Self Tests go for around $20.


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## jiml (Sep 17, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> That's a real shame. I know that in researching for upcoming trips to Canada I found I can get a free PCR test down in City of Seattle with pretty quick results for any reason. People who are being tested because of exposure or being symptomatic get priority, but it's free for everyone. You don't even have to be a Seattle or King County resident.


Yes, I agree. I could go and get a test for any reason _but travel_ immediately at no cost. Unfortunately the travel ones are unique in order to be accepted by the airlines. It's a result of the government trying to discourage Canadians from travelling and those who think taxpayers shouldn't be funding tests for people who can afford to travel.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 17, 2021)

jiml said:


> Yes, I agree. I could go and get a test for any reason _but travel_ immediately at no cost. Unfortunately the travel ones are unique in order to be accepted by the airlines. It's a result of the government trying to discourage Canadians from travelling and those who think taxpayers shouldn't be funding tests for people who can afford to travel.


That's sort of a strange policy for a Society that has Universal Health Care, but then I know Canada doesn't have True Universal Health Care, but a mix of Public and Private Systems which is still better than the Profit driven System here!


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## OBS (Sep 17, 2021)

jiml said:


> Just a reminder that Covid tests in Canada are not free for travel. The going rate is around $250 and up. That adds quite a premium to what might appear a good deal for airfare - especially for a couple or family.


Just talked to the local Shoppers Drug mart, by my in-laws in Mississauga, it is $40 and walk in anytime....


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## PVD (Sep 17, 2021)

That sounds a little low for a lab run PCR. Make sure that whatever test they are offering is one that is acceptable for travel/border. Some testing requirements call for RT-PCR, and a rapid may not be acceptable. I don't know what the rules are for this case.


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## jiml (Sep 17, 2021)

OBS said:


> Just talked to the local Shoppers Drug mart, by my in-laws in Mississauga, it is $40 and walk in anytime....


That's odd. For a PCR test for travel, my local Shoppers charges $199 + $30 tax + $20 fee if you need results on short notice. That's supported on their website here:


https://covid-19.shoppersdrugmart.ca/en/testing/international-outbound


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## zephyr17 (Sep 17, 2021)

PVD said:


> That sounds a little low for a lab run PCR. Make sure that whatever test they are offering is one that is acceptable for travel/border. Some testing requirements call for RT-PCR, and a rapid may not be acceptable. I don't know what the rules are for this case.


The US accepts the much cheaper antigen tests for entry. Canada requires the RT-PCR.


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## Triley (Sep 17, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Yeah, the test requirement is in TIMATIC, which is what the airlines use to verify entry documentation requirements, so they will deny boarding.



Yup....The same reason why I have to fight to be able to board a plane back home to Canada. I have exemption status, and I have to argue it almost every time. I have been denied boarding with Delta twice, and Air Canada once, due to their refusals to research the updated policies and exemptions. The AC agent in SEA (by far the _rudest_ person I've ever encountered in transportation) refused to even look at my phone (trying to show the exemption list from the Government of Canada website), and told me he knew what the policies were.

Don't worry, I have received $200 in compensation from Air Canada, and over $1300 in refunds/goodwill from Delta due to the incurred expenses of the Covid test I didn't need, and hotel rooms when I should've been at home.



jiml said:


> Just a reminder that Covid tests in Canada are not free for travel. The going rate is around $250 and up. That adds quite a premium to what might appear a good deal for airfare - especially for a couple or family.



I'm paying $129+tax for rapid antigen tests at YVR. The same company charges $99+tax for the rapid antigen tests at YYC. It definitely doesn't hurt to shop around.



Bob Dylan said:


> Wow, the Canadian Government must think people who want to visit will think this is OK!
> 
> Even here in the Third World, aka Texas, Tests are available for $40 from Private firms and Self Tests go for around $20.



And yet....here the Seattle airport I paid $200 for a rapid PCR test, and that place is _always_ still super busy.


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## Triley (Sep 17, 2021)

jiml said:


> That's odd. For a PCR test for travel, my local Shoppers charges $199 + $30 tax + $20 fee if you need results on short notice. That's supported on their website here:
> 
> 
> https://covid-19.shoppersdrugmart.ca/en/testing/international-outbound



That's correct. The PCR test is $199+tax. The rapid antigen screen (which is accepted for travel to most of the US) is only $40+tax. I just wish it was available in BC....but it's only in Ontario and Alberta.



https://covid-19.shoppersdrugmart.ca/en/testing/antigen-screening


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## PVD (Sep 17, 2021)

We do them at JFK and LGA for no charge if you live or work in NY, rapid and regular at one time, rapid back in about 20 mins, PCR usually the next day. I don't know if the NYC results are accepted for all travel, but i know the PCR is run by the NYC HHC PRL which is CLIA so it should be (not that "should be" matters)


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 28, 2021)

There's a couple of reports in Canadian railfan forums of an Amtrak Test Train on CN's Rouses Point Subdivision yesterday and photos of the equipment at the MMC in Montreal last evening with the specially painted "50 Years" AMTK 108 unit.

Probably crew requalification for an Adirondack service resumption shortly


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## Cal (Oct 28, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> There's a couple of reports in Canadian railfan forums of an Amtrak Test Train on CN's Rouses Point Subdivision yesterday and photos of the equipment at the MMC in Montreal last evening with the specially painted "50 Years" AMTK 108 unit.
> 
> Probably crew requalification for an Adirondack service resumption shortly


Saw it on Instagram. 

What are the chances for the Maple Leaf?


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 28, 2021)

Cal said:


> Saw it on Instagram.
> 
> What are the chances for the Maple Leaf?



Unlike the Adirondack (and Cascades) which are entirely an Amtrak operation including crews while in Canada.....the Maple Leaf is a jointly run train and VIA would have to get involved for it to return


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## zephyr17 (Oct 28, 2021)

Wonder if there is any movement on the Cascades? I always thought that would be the first one back.


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## Cal (Oct 28, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Wonder if there is any movement on the Cascades? I always thought that would be the first one back.


Probably, Triley would probably know.


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## Mailliw (Oct 29, 2021)

I assumed the same. There's already a preclearance facility in Vancouver and there are multiple trips a day.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Oct 29, 2021)

While the Canadian border is opened for Americans (assuming one jumps through the various hoops) I don't believe at this time the reciprocal is true and that the US border is still closed to non essential travel by Canadians. That may need to be resolved before the trains can be restored.

Here where I live in Maine, residents of Campobello Island whose only year round connection to the rest of Canada is through the US, are allowed to travel through the US, and also stop to shop here, as there are no gas stations on the island and very limited grocery shopping. But that falls under the "essential travel" provision I guess.


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## Exvalley (Oct 29, 2021)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I don't believe at this time the reciprocal is true and that the US border is still closed to non essential travel by Canadians.


That changes on November 8th - at least for fully vaccinated people.

But don't expect a lot of Canadians crossing the border. The biggest problem for Canadians is that they have to test to enter into the United States and also test in order to return to Canada. So, except for the shortest of trips, they will have to take two tests.


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 29, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> That changes on November 8th - at least for fully vaccinated people.
> 
> But don't expect a lot of Canadians crossing the border. The biggest problem for Canadians is that they have to test to enter into the United States and also test in order to return to Canada. So, except for the shortest of trips, they will have to take two tests.



And Americans will still need a PCR test to enter Canada......but don't need that second test to return to the US.


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## Steve Manfred (Oct 29, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> And Americans will still need a PCR test to enter Canada......but don't need that second test to return to the US.



And also, as of now, Americans (or any non-Canadians really) entering Canada also have to give an address of somewhere in Canada where they will quarantine for 14 days should they come down with Covid during their visit. How does a short-tripper without family there do that without lying?


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## OBS (Oct 29, 2021)

Steve Manfred said:


> And also, as of now, Americans (or any non-Canadians really) entering Canada also have to give an address of somewhere in Canada where they will quarantine for 14 days should they come down with Covid during their visit. How does a short-tripper without family there do that without lying?


Put the address of local hotel/motel...


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## Triley (Oct 29, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Wonder if there is any movement on the Cascades? I always thought that would be the first one back.





Cal said:


> Probably, Triley would probably know.



I don’t agree with this decision, but I have been told that the Cascades will be waiting, so all three routes can resume on the same day. There’s still no firm date, however.

The most realistic date I heard was by Thanksgiving, but the goal post has been moved.

The crew base must be given 21 days notice prior to resumption of service, in order to have proper time to get jobs put up for bid. Plus until the Jefferson is repaired or another Horizon set is completed, they will no have enough equipment in Seattle to sustain the train to Canada long term.

Wiith current equipment turns, 4 sets are required for the Cascades. This allows the Talgo + 1 Horizon set to overnight in SEA, 1 Horizon set in PDX, and 1 Horizon set in EUG. If they short turn the equipment in Seattle (leaving no real time for heavy equipment servicing in SEA) then a consist can be freed up for Canada service. It wouldn’t be pretty tough, as both southbound Horizon trains would only have their equipment in SEA for ~2.5 hours.


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## Exvalley (Oct 29, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> And Americans will still need a PCR test to enter Canada......but don't need that second test to return to the US.


Which is why we have traveled to Canada. If we had to take two tests it just wouldn't be worth it - especially if you are stuck on the border trying to get home because your test results are taking longer than expected.



Steve Manfred said:


> And also, as of now, Americans (or any non-Canadians really) entering Canada also have to give an address of somewhere in Canada where they will quarantine for 14 days should they come down with Covid during their visit. How does a short-tripper without family there do that without lying?


As mentioned earlier, it's quite easy. You pick the address of a hotel.


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 29, 2021)

Steve Manfred said:


> And also, as of now, Americans (or any non-Canadians really) entering Canada also have to give an address of somewhere in Canada where they will quarantine for 14 days should they come down with Covid during their visit. How does a short-tripper without family there do that without lying?





Exvalley said:


> As mentioned earlier, it's quite easy. You pick the address of a hotel.




Careful now!! There are reports of Border Agents actually verifying your quarantine plan so I would at least have a reservation at a hotel...not just giving an address. 

Federal Transport Minister Omar Alghabra has a news conference at noon ET today on rail and air travel. Perhaps some updates are coming.


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## Exvalley (Oct 29, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Careful now!! There are reports of Border Agents actually verifying your quarantine plan so I would at least have a reservation at a hotel...not just giving an address.


We have had no issues, knock on wood.

But why would a border agent expect you to make an actual reservation at a hotel for a disease that you don't have - and don't know when you would get if you did get it? I always choose a hotel that has availability, so it's not like there is a barrier to actually quarantining there if needed.


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## NS VIA Fan (Oct 29, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> We have had no issues, knock on wood.



Just saying.....be careful!



Exvalley said:


> But why would a border agent expect you to make an actual reservation at a hotel for a disease that you don't have - and don't know when you would get if you did get it? I always choose a hotel that has availability, so it's not like there is a barrier to actually quarantining there if needed.



Its all the discretion of the border agent. Some are by the book more so than others.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 29, 2021)

redacted


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## zephyr17 (Oct 29, 2021)

I find that "you are applying for a quarantine waiver but you have to have a quarantine plan" requirement weird and confusing. A waiver of the quarantine rule is technically what it is you are applying for as a vaccinated, non-essential traveler entering Canada.

I am taking the Canadian in March and am going to Vancouver three days before and staying in a hotel just so I can show a credible quarantine plan (just stay on at that hotel). Normally I just take the morning train up and ship out on the Canadian that same afternoon.

I am a NEXUS member so I am required to know and _strictly _abide by all rules in order to retain my NEXUS privileges. I both want to both take my VIA trip and keep my NEXUS membership so a real hotel stay is what I decided to do. I figured shipping out on a 4 day train trip immediately upon arrival wasn't a credible quarantine plan, and an easily verifiable lie about a mythical hotel stay could get me both refused entry and kicked out of NEXUS.

I am taking two driving trips up to BC before then that involve necessary hotel stays, so will see how those go at the border before my March train trip.


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## Steve Manfred (Oct 30, 2021)

OBS said:


> Put the address of local hotel/motel...



And what if that hotel is booked up already for the dates of that quarantine period? You‘d have to make a two-week reservation with them in advance.


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## Exvalley (Oct 30, 2021)

Steve Manfred said:


> And what if that hotel is booked up already for the dates of that quarantine period? You‘d have to make a two-week reservation with them in advance.


You find another hotel and update your quarantine location.


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## Steve Manfred (Oct 30, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> You find another hotel and update your quarantine location.



Eh? You test positive, you have to stay where you are. You can’t switch hotels, or else it’s not a quarantine, is it?


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## Exvalley (Oct 30, 2021)

Steve Manfred said:


> Eh? You test positive, you have to stay where you are. You can’t switch hotels, or else it’s not a quarantine, is it?


If you test positive you have to find a place to quarantine - which does not have to be where you are located when you get the test result.


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## jiml (Oct 30, 2021)

Exvalley said:


> If you test positive you have to find a place to quarantine - which does not have to be where you are located when you get the test result.


Just because you have a plan doesn't mean you have to follow that plan. The requirement remains, but can be fulfilled via alternate arrangements.


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## Exvalley (Oct 30, 2021)

jiml said:


> Just because you have a plan doesn't mean you have to follow that plan. The requirement remains, but can be fulfilled via alternate arrangements.


Exactly.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 30, 2021)

jiml said:


> Just because you have a plan doesn't mean you have to follow that plan. The requirement remains, but can be fulfilled via alternate arrangements.


The whole quarantine "plan" requirement remains, quite frankly, bizarre. You don't have to have a two week hotel reservation to fulfill it, just have a plan. I am going to be traveling on the Canadian for most of five days three days after I arrive. What plan am supposed to write down in case I come down with it in remote northern Ontario? It pretty much is encouraging the writing of fiction to no realistic purpose. Negative test and vaccination? Fine. Want to look hard at the documentation? Fine, they should. Make unfulfillable crap up? Not so fine.

Generally I think Canada's response to COVID has been much more rational and effective than the US' and I am generally supportive of their measures. But this quarantine plan business is just outright stupid.


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## jiml (Oct 30, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> The whole quarantine "plan" requirement remains, quite frankly, bizarre. You don't have to have a two week hotel reservation to fulfill it, just have a plan. I am going to be traveling on the Canadian for most of five days three days after I arrive. What plan am supposed to write down in case I come down with it in remote northern Ontario? It pretty much is encouraging the writing of fiction to no realistic purpose. Just to show that you've thought about it.
> 
> Generally I think Canada's response to COVID has been much more rational and effective than the US' and I am generally supportive of their measures. But this quarantine plan business is just outright stupid.


It's all about "virtue-signalling", which sums up our current government in one hyphenated word. My best US friend is considering a visit here, is fully vaccinated (3 shots unlike most Canadians) and will stay at an airport hotel. If he needs to quarantine, however unlikely, I'll have a houseguest for 2 weeks.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 30, 2021)

Steve Manfred said:


> Eh? You test positive, you have to stay where you are. You can’t switch hotels, or else it’s not a quarantine, is it?


Yep. Dumb. Unrealistic requirement impossible to truthfully fulfill for many if not most people.

My actual "quarantine plan"? Since the US does not require testing to cross land borders, run for the border. I don't generally fly to Canada anyway and for all except train trips I drive so I have my vehicle.


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