# Inter-city rail CLT to CLB?



## SCrails (Mar 1, 2011)

Columbia mayor is interested in rail link to Charlotte.

This is so prospective and tenuous that I can't even hear a distant locomotive horn yet. Our city struggles every year to operate the bus system and it's only a few months from a possible shutdown now. On the other hand, it's the first time I remember hearing an elected official - ANY elected official - from my state discuss new passenger rail possibilities.

Hope they didn't get bustituted on their return trip to Charlotte like I did! :lol: :giggle: :lol:


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## Anderson (Mar 1, 2011)

You know, though as a "commuter" line (in the sense of Metro North or the LIRR), this seems a bit of a stretch...I'm left wondering if an extension of the Piedmont/Carolinian lines wouldn't serve the purpose well enough.

Edit: To explain, the trip is close to 100 miles. Grand Central Terminal to New Haven (the longest Metro North line) is 75-85 miles and involves a change at Stamford. The lone example of this, really, is the Jamaica-Montauk train on the LIRR (even the NY-Philly runs on NJ Transit clock in at under 85 miles), and those are over extremely dense areas.

Now, a Richmond-Washington style service (Amtrak runs 8-9 trains per day) could work, even with a lower number in the 3-6 trips-per-day range (I think you'd need 3-4 for a workable "commuter" service).


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## AlanB (Mar 1, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Edit: To explain, the trip is close to 100 miles. Grand Central Terminal to New Haven (the longest Metro North line) is 75-85 miles and involves a change at Stamford. The lone example of this, really, is the Jamaica-Montauk train on the LIRR (even the NY-Philly runs on NJ Transit clock in at under 85 miles), and those are over extremely dense areas.


Actually New Haven (the original station & terminus) to Grand Central is 72.3 miles and it does not require a change of trains in Stamford, it's a one seat ride. The run from the State St. stop in New Haven, one stop east of New Haven, is 74 miles. The longest run on the New Haven division of Metro North is actually Waterbury at 87.5 miles to Grand Central. Poughkeepsie on the Hudson line is a distance at 73.5 miles. On the Hudson line the farthest stop from GCT is Wassaic at 82 miles.

However, the longest run on a Metro North train can be had by going west of the Hudson and riding 95 miles from Hoboken, NJ to Port Jervis, NY.

Montauk by the way is 117 miles from Penn Station, which does require a transfer of trains at either Babylon or Jamaica depending on the time of day. Greenport on the north shore is 96.1 miles from Penn and requires a transfer at Ronkonkoma.


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## Anderson (Mar 1, 2011)

Ah, I didn't think to look west of the Hudson. As to my goof on the Stamford switch: There's at least one train per day that requires a switch (I checked), but I probably made an assumption because of how the fare tables are set up for Metro North. Still, I think it's fair to say that you've sort of proven my point: Those lines are operated in highly dense areas, and the Montauk line feels like the exception that proves the rule (not to mention that it runs through many miles of densely-populated territory before it breaks out into the more rural end of Long Island) in that none of the lines you listed, save for Hoboken-Port Jervis, quite match up to this.


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## AlanB (Mar 1, 2011)

Anderson said:


> As to my goof on the Stamford switch: There's at least one train per day that requires a switch (I checked), but I probably made an assumption because of how the fare tables are set up for Metro North.


Assuming that you're looking at the normal schedules, and not the special schedule currently in effect due to many of the cars being out of service thanks to snow damage, then you should find 3 trains from New Haven on the schedule that terminate in Stamford. Two of those trains, the 6:58 AM @ State St & 7:06 AM out of New Haven and the 7:37 AM State St. & 7:44 AM New Haven, are Shoreline East commuter trains that run through New Haven to Stamford to accomodate east end workers with jobs in Stamford.

The 6:11 AM out of New Haven is run by the State to allow for passengers connecting from Shoreline East to get to Stamford. It wasn't really intended to be used by those wishing to go to Grand Central, which is why it's a super express that only stops at Bridgeport.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 2, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Montauk by the way is 117 miles from Penn Station, which does require a transfer of trains at either Babylon or Jamaica depending on the time of day. Greenport on the north shore is 96.1 miles from Penn and requires a transfer at Ronkonkoma.


I thought the Cannonball ran with dual modes out of Penn.


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## AlanB (Mar 2, 2011)

Green Maned Lion said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Montauk by the way is 117 miles from Penn Station, which does require a transfer of trains at either Babylon or Jamaica depending on the time of day. Greenport on the north shore is 96.1 miles from Penn and requires a transfer at Ronkonkoma.
> ...


Nope. One boards a particular electric train at NYP and transfers at Jamaica to the Cannonball.

From the 2010 press release.



> The Cannonball departs Hunterspoint Avenue Station (just a hop from Grand Central Terminal on the #7 subway) every Friday at 4:06 PM with stops at Jamaica (4:25 PM), Westhampton (5:41 PM), Southampton (6:03 PM) Bridgehampton (6:13 PM), East Hampton (6:25 PM) and Montauk (6:48 PM). From Penn Station a special connecting Montauk train departs at 3:58 PM. Please walk to the middle of the train for a smooth transition to a seat on the Cannonball at Jamaica. A connecting train also departs Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn 3:56 PM for transfer to the Cannonball at Jamaica.


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## Anderson (Mar 2, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > As to my goof on the Stamford switch: There's at least one train per day that requires a switch (I checked), but I probably made an assumption because of how the fare tables are set up for Metro North.
> ...


Does two in the morning and two out in the afternoon that are normal plus the one Shoreline East special in the morning sound about right? And...I had completely forgotten about the ability to connect further out to New London on Shoreline East (though, to be fair, I'm also vaguely familiar with the attempts at a line to Hartford...which would make no sense if not for the fact that one of my best friends works in the CT state legislature).

Still, my point stands that this is a rather long hike to think of as a "traditional" commuter rail service and would probably have more in common with the Hiawatha, San Diegan (albeit in a smaller market), or Richmond-Washington service than NJ Transit given that the two metro areas don't run together.


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## afigg (Mar 2, 2011)

Anderson said:


> You know, though as a "commuter" line (in the sense of Metro North or the LIRR), this seems a bit of a stretch...I'm left wondering if an extension of the Piedmont/Carolinian lines wouldn't serve the purpose well enough.
> 
> Edit: To explain, the trip is close to 100 miles. Grand Central Terminal to New Haven (the longest Metro North line) is 75-85 miles and involves a change at Stamford. The lone example of this, really, is the Jamaica-Montauk train on the LIRR (even the NY-Philly runs on NJ Transit clock in at under 85 miles), and those are over extremely dense areas.
> 
> Now, a Richmond-Washington style service (Amtrak runs 8-9 trains per day) could work, even with a lower number in the 3-6 trips-per-day range (I think you'd need 3-4 for a workable "commuter" service).


How many population centers and viable station stops would there be between Columbia and Charlotte? Is this really a viable daily commuter corridor?

Extending some of the Piedmont trains strikes me as the better approach. IIRC, the long term NC plans for the Piedmont service is to expand it to 4 to 5 round trip trains a day. Once the trip time and capacity improvements are in place on the Charlotte-Raleigh corridor, extending 2-3 Piedmont trains to Columbia would provide Columbia with direct access to the entire Charlotte-Raleigh corridor, not just to Charlotte. And if additional Carolinians are added leaving from Charlotte, daytime access to the NEC. This topic might be more suitable to the Amtrak forum, because it would be an inter-city service, not just a commuter line.

What are the conditions of the tracks between Charlotte and Columbia? Any clues as to how much it would take to provide reliable 79 mph speeds over most of the route? This would be over NS tracks, right?

Also, if the Charlotte to Columbia route were to be open to passenger trains and the trip time & capacity improvements are made on the Raleigh-Charlotte corridor, wouldn't Amtrak look at re-routing the Silver Star to run to Charlotte and then south to Columbia? The Raleigh-Charlotte corridor will have nice train stations with 600 foot platforms in place and it would add the larger population centers of Durham, Greensboro, Charlotte to the Silver Star service, albeit at lousy middle of the night hours.


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## SCrails (Mar 2, 2011)

Useful questions, all, afigg. I posted whined about the need for a CLB-CLT link on some forum a while back (maybe it was on the Carolina Rail Passengers forum) and got a lot of opinions and information in reply. One was that NC pays good money for the Carolinian/Piedmont service and would be loath to risk screwing up those schedules by extending them to CLB (into a state that is itself loath to pay for passenger rail). I couldn't blame NC for that. Another was that the current line between the two cities is slow and curvy, not at all up to passenger standards.

I agree with you that this route looks like inter-city, not commuter. There aren't many population centers in between until you get into the Charlotte suburbs. Connecting the two major cities of the region is the big benefit, as well as giving CLB better access into the NEC. And rerouting the Silver Star as you suggested would give those NC cities daylight service northbound, at least. Southbound, not so much, without adjusting the schedule.

Even with our wee-hours schedule, CLB had 36,297 boardings/alightings in FY 2010. Not shabby for a city where "nobody rides trains".

Columbia does have several transportation corridors that are begging for light rail. From the city center to the northwest (St. Andrews/Irmo/Chapin); city center to the northeast suburbs; city center to the west (West Columbia / Lexington / airport). The commutes from those areas today are horrendous by car. I can't imagine such a rail system developing in my lifetime, seeing that the municipalities can't even cooperate to fund the existing bus system.


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## Anderson (Mar 2, 2011)

Figg,

You're actually making me wonder (yet again) if a third train on the ACL down to Florida, spaced a couple of hours off of the other two and ending in Orlando/Tampa, might not be in order again before too long. The Silvers are starting to run into actual capacity pressures (ridership is up about 35% on the two Florida trains from when I'm first able to break them out from the Palmetto). If you timed it right (re-extending the Palmetto and perhaps sliding the schedule a bit, for example), you could _probably _get this third alignment in without _too_ much trouble, though it might end up being a slightly longer ride than the other two. 'course, I'd also like a third real long distance train running WAS-RVR, but that's another story...

As to the run being a viable daily commuter line, I think RVR-WAS is a viable one in the long term as well (compare the on-board time on this route to the longer LIRR and Metro North trips and this comes out ahead, and I really do think the march of the DC metro area is somewhat inexorable given that so much of it is driven by stable government-related jobs [lobbyists and think tanks included]), but it's got three problems at the moment:

1) Cost. An LIRR monthly ticket from Montauk to Manhattan is $429/month. An Amtrak monthly ticket from Richmond to DC is $792/month. The $363/month difference comes out to about $4300/year, or about 5% of a pretty decent salary. Even backing it down to Alexandria and taking the metro for the last "hop" (which you'd probably do anyway in departing Union Station, truth be told) only cuts the fare to $666/month, or about $2850 more than that LIRR monthly ticket.

2) Parking. Let's face it: RVR is not set up to handle a hundred commuter cars parking there in the morning, staying all day, and leaving at 7 in the evening. Ashland's station probably isn't much better, either.

3) Demand. At the moment, this simply isn't there. I suspect that within another 15-20 years, we're going to be looking at it, but...not just yet.

I think a line can operate where there's a "gap" between two neighboring metro areas (and it could arguably "short out" them running together if done correctly by encouraging a secondary development nexus in the second city rather than just seeing that development march onwards like some orcish horde of real estate developers), but you'd need a good stream of traffic on the line to justify it being built in the first place...and I don't think Charlotte-Columbia has that just yet.

So, to compare, I think Charlotte-Columbia is a workable commuter line in the long run, but it is probably better handled by an extension of the Piedmont/Carolinian service for now. Eventually moving to a separate service (potentially contracted out to Amtrak) which is a "real" commuter line would be a decade-long project.


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## AlanB (Mar 2, 2011)

Anderson said:


> 1) Cost. An LIRR monthly ticket from Montauk to Manhattan is $429/month. An Amtrak monthly ticket from Richmond to DC is $792/month. The $363/month difference comes out to about $4300/year, or about 5% of a pretty decent salary. Even backing it down to Alexandria and taking the metro for the last "hop" (which you'd probably do anyway in departing Union Station, truth be told) only cuts the fare to $666/month, or about $2850 more than that LIRR monthly ticket.


While I understand the point you're trying to make, that's not really a fair comparison. Amtrak and the LIRR have totally different fiscal mandates and goals.


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## Anderson (Mar 2, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > 1) Cost. An LIRR monthly ticket from Montauk to Manhattan is $429/month. An Amtrak monthly ticket from Richmond to DC is $792/month. The $363/month difference comes out to about $4300/year, or about 5% of a pretty decent salary. Even backing it down to Alexandria and taking the metro for the last "hop" (which you'd probably do anyway in departing Union Station, truth be told) only cuts the fare to $666/month, or about $2850 more than that LIRR monthly ticket.
> ...


It is and it isn't. I recognize that the fiscal mandates are substantially different, and so from Amtrak's point of view it isn't a fair comparison. I will grant that. But with that said, the costs of living in the two metro areas are about the same, so it _is_ from the consumer's perspective. My point is that folks _aren't_ going to pay more than a certain amount for that ticket, and I am going to bet dollars to doughnuts that $9500 (I'm assuming that parking privileges wash between the two services) a year is going to make a lot of folks blink. Whether Amtrak can operate the service at a level the market will bear is a reasonable debate (and I would submit that a "real" Richmond-Washington commuter service would need an extra kick-in from the state to bring the fares for those tickets in line), but my point is that you're going to be hard-pressed to get folks to shell out that much if the MTA can't pull it off in the New York area.

Or, to put it another way, if your population density is lower, the parking restrictions aren't quite as bad, and gas is $.40 cheaper, how are you going to get folks to fork over close to twice as much?


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## afigg (Mar 2, 2011)

SCrails said:


> Useful questions, all, afigg. I posted whined about the need for a CLB-CLT link on some forum a while back (maybe it was on the Carolina Rail Passengers forum) and got a lot of opinions and information in reply. One was that NC pays good money for the Carolinian/Piedmont service and would be loath to risk screwing up those schedules by extending them to CLB (into a state that is itself loath to pay for passenger rail). I couldn't blame NC for that. Another was that the current line between the two cities is slow and curvy, not at all up to passenger standards.
> 
> I agree with you that this route looks like inter-city, not commuter. There aren't many population centers in between until you get into the Charlotte suburbs. Connecting the two major cities of the region is the big benefit, as well as giving CLB better access into the NEC. And rerouting the Silver Star as you suggested would give those NC cities daylight service northbound, at least. Southbound, not so much, without adjusting the schedule.


Yes, NC should not get too involved into considering extending Piedmont service to Columbia until SC makes a real commitment with some state funds for engineering studies on upgrades to the Columbia to Charlotte route - provided that is determined to be an affordable project. The focus should be on improvements on the Raleigh to Charlotte corridor and getting funding & upgrades for the SE HSR corridor. But the prospect of the SE HSR corridor is at least getting SC to look at starting a Columbia to Charlotte service.

As for the Silver Star, you are right, the north bound hours would be daytime on a re-route through Charlotte. If Amtrak were to do the re-route, the northbound schedule for the Silver Star would have to be shifted a few hours so it would not be running too close to the Carolinian. Speed improvements between Raleigh and DC would help increase flexibility in the schedule. Still, if Amtrak were able to run the Silver Star through Charlotte, NC would obviously support the move because it would provide a 2nd daily Carolinian type service to the north to NYP and direct connections to Orlando and Miami. And it might be a way to start a Columbia to Charlotte train connection. I have to wonder if Amtrak is thinking about rerouting the Silver Star through Charlotte in several years once more improvements are made on the Raleigh to Charlotte corridor. But that depends on the condition and trip times of the Charlotte- Columbia route and the willingness of the freight railroad to add a passenger train.


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## afigg (Mar 3, 2011)

Anderson said:


> Figg,
> 
> You're actually making me wonder (yet again) if a third train on the ACL down to Florida, spaced a couple of hours off of the other two and ending in Orlando/Tampa, might not be in order again before too long. The Silvers are starting to run into actual capacity pressures (ridership is up about 35% on the two Florida trains from when I'm first able to break them out from the Palmetto). If you timed it right (re-extending the Palmetto and perhaps sliding the schedule a bit, for example), you could _probably _get this third alignment in without _too_ much trouble, though it might end up being a slightly longer ride than the other two. 'course, I'd also like a third real long distance train running WAS-RVR, but that's another story...


Once most of the Viewliner 2 order is delivered, Amtrak should have the equipment available to turn the Palmetto into a Silver Palm with sleepers. The scheduling would get complicated if Amtrak were to want to retain the daytime service between NYP and Savannah so those stops would have good daytime hours. The ridership numbers for the Silver service trains indicate a 3rd LD sleeper train to FL would work. But Amtrak is not likely to add a 4th LD daytime only train over that route because the operating subsidy is going to be very tight the next several years. Some sort of state support would be needed. This also ignores whether Amtrak would have enough Amfleet II or equivalent LD coach cars available.

As for terminating a train at Orlando/Tampa, the service facility is in Hileah, so Amtrak is going to want to run the train to Miami. Besides in several years, Amtrak will move to a new station at the Miami Intermodal Center which will provide better transit connections, direct access to car rentals, and a higher profile for Amtrak service in Miami. Miami ridership numbers on the Silver trains is likely to get a nice increase.


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## Eric S (Mar 4, 2011)

Let's also not overlook the possibility that this would, indeed, be intercity rail, rather than commuter rail, and that the article simply confuses the two concepts. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened.


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## Anderson (Mar 5, 2011)

afigg said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Figg,
> ...


True. I was thinking in terms of service times more than anything. I will say that I think it might be fair to look at running the "third" Silver Palm on a schedule that permits a morning arrival in Orlando. Of course, I'm also left wondering if it might not be wise to start looking at either splitting a train in Orlando or (more preferably) running a corridor service that links specifically with the Silver Meteor and the Silver Palm. The run is short enough that you could _probably_ clean the sleepers and have a morning train's sleepers going north in the evening, and an evening train's sleepers going north in the morning if you provided enough time (say, had one train hit Orlando at 9 AM and the other at 3 PM). Call it a faux corridor service...it won't get Miami, but you'd have a good set running JAX-ORL-TPA with that at the very least, as well as MIA-ORL-JAX...just a messy MIA-ORL-TPA connection unless you wanted to do some additional train splitting worthy of the 1950s (say, have two Miami-Tampa coaches on each train and a NYP-TPA set on each train, and exchange them in Orlando so you can run all three trains on a "rhythm").


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## George Harris (Mar 5, 2011)

Anderson said:


> You know, though as a "commuter" line (in the sense of Metro North or the LIRR), this seems a bit of a stretch...I'm left wondering if an extension of the Piedmont/Carolinian lines wouldn't serve the purpose well enough.


Consider "commuter" as the TV station's editorialising. To some people rail = commuter.

The line between Columbia SC and Charlotte NC is somewhat curvey. I do not have any of the fomer Southern Railway schedules at hand, so I really can't say what the potential run time would be. It is signaled.

As a regional service it would make a reasonable extension of the North Carolina trains, except the early morning departure / late evening arrival, which is the Carolinian. I would think that a logical early morning departure late evening arrival should logically goup the ex-Southern Railway line through Danville and Lynchburg north of Greesnboro. If we want another train, an overnight train from New York with a early morning arrival / mid to late evening departure from Charlotte which then splits into a Columbia and south section and an Atlanta - Birmingham or other points in that general direction.


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