# "California Night Train" gaining interest



## ShiningTimeStL (Apr 19, 2021)

Commentary: California Needs a Night Train Now


The Europeans are expanding overnight intercity services. So is Amtrak on the East Coast. When will California get on board?




cal.streetsblog.org





RPA shared this on Facebook. I like name "Coast Moonlight," and I like the idea of Nightjet equipment. Even more than that, I'm absolutely intrigued at the suggestion of a California Autotrain... when traffic gets bad enough, you never know what people will do to avoid it. I think it just might work. 

But let's keep our fingers crossed for the Coast Daylight before shooting for the moon, perhaps.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 19, 2021)

A Coast Moonlight would be great to have.

It would require the state to pay Union Pacific for several improvements: centralized traffic control (CTC), powered sidings, and the addition of one new siding, and the extension of five sidings.

I think Union Pacific is asking for a bit TOO much here (it's their opening position, after all) for tracks they barely use -- but CTC, powered sidings and some additional sidings seem like a reasonable request. They would also help speed up the Coast Starlight and improve OTP.

The holy grail, in my opinion, would be to negotiate the sale of the tracks while allowing UP to retain the right to operate the same small number of freight trains they operate today.

The huge elephant in the room is CAHSR -- the state seems unwilling at the moment to invest in major improvements to traditional rail service between SoCal and the Bay Area.


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## Cal (Apr 19, 2021)

I'm intrigued. 

About the corridor service, however, I think the tracks should be straitened so trip times can be cut down.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 19, 2021)

Coast Moonlight ?
Coast Moonshine ?


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 19, 2021)

Historically there were too night trains on the EsPee Coast Line. The Lark which was the All-Pullman train of the stars which is briefly featured at the end of North by Northwest. And the Starlight which was not as posh of a train as the Lark. Then you had the daylight train that was the Coast Daylight. So what Amtrak did with the current brand name is merging the two the Coast Starlight. Starlight because it's a night train over what used to be the Cascade's route, and Coast for the line.


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## JermyZP (Apr 20, 2021)

It would be great if they could have a train from San Diego to Oakland with a bus connection to SF or from LA to Sacramento. That runs once during the day and once overnight. I think the name of the train could be "Pacific Daylight/Moonlight"


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 20, 2021)

Given the Caltrain trackage, is it not possible to have an Amtrak train directly from downtown San Francisco to San Jose and on down the current Coast Starlight route to LA? I'm of the belief the HSR will never be completed. I cannot easily tell from Amtrak's "ConnectUS" map if that is in their proposal. I've got to believe a direct train would be well patronized.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 20, 2021)

Yes, it should be possible to run directly between Los Angeles and San Francisco.


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## Cal (Apr 20, 2021)

JermyZP said:


> It would be great if they could have a train from San Diego to Oakland with a bus connection to SF or from LA to Sacramento. That runs once during the day and once overnight. I think the name of the train could be "Pacific Daylight/Moonlight"


That would be a very long day run, I would hope they would be able to decrease running times between LA and San JOse before that happens


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## jis (Apr 20, 2021)

Cal said:


> That would be a very long day run, I would hope they would be able to decrease running times between LA and San JOse before that happens


Without decreasing any running times it will be more or less like the Palmetto. So it can very much be done today. But in effect it would be running within an hour of the Coast Starlight. Perhaps it would allow the Starlight to skip a few stops, and for this train to perhaps stop at a few more places potentially.


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## tim49424 (Apr 20, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Coast Moonshine ?



It would be cool if they ran a still on the train.


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## Cal (Apr 20, 2021)

jis said:


> Without decreasing any running times it will be more or less like the Palmetto. So it can very much be done today. But in effect it would be running within an hour of the Coast Starlight. Perhaps it would allow the Starlight to skip a few stops, and for this train to perhaps stop at a few more places potentially.


Yes however, the Palmetto covers a considerably longer distance.


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## jis (Apr 20, 2021)

Cal said:


> Yes however, the Palmetto covers a considerably longer distance.


Which is not particularly relevant. The temporal length of the run will be similar, and it connects three significant population centers. If it managed to cover the same distance as the Palmetto it would be able to pull in Sacto too, which would be good, but not critical. Again we should not refrain from doing the good waiting for the perfect to come to pass.

To recall the thread of this discussion, I was responding to your hint that such a train between San Diego and Oakland/San Francisco could not be done unless the running time between LA and San Jose was reduced, to which I responded that that was not the case. It could very much be done since the running time would be similar to the Palmetto. At which point you threw in the business about the distance that the Palmetto covers in that time, which seemed to me like more or less a red herring. Of course if it was an Acela it would cover even more distance with available appropriate tracks. So what?


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## jiml (Apr 20, 2021)

tim49424 said:


> It would be cool if they ran a still on the train.


I think they were saving the Moonshine suffix for the new Kentucky-Tennessee service.


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## jiml (Apr 20, 2021)

jis said:


> Without decreasing any running times it will be more or less like the Palmetto. So it can very much be done today. But in effect it would be running within an hour of the Coast Starlight. Perhaps it would allow the Starlight to skip a few stops, and for this train to perhaps stop at a few more places potentially.


Considering it takes about 7 hours for the Starlight to get between the Bay area and San Luis Obispo, and the route south of there is served by Pacific Surfliners, the new train skipping some stops on the lower part of the route might make sense too.


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## Cal (Apr 20, 2021)

jis said:


> Which is not particularly relevant. The temporal length of the run will be similar, and it connects three significant population centers. If it managed to cover the same distance as the Palmetto it would be able to pull in Sacto too, which would be good, but not critical. Again we should not refrain from doing the good waiting for the perfect to come to pass.
> 
> To recall the thread of this discussion, I was responding to your hint that such a train between San Diego and Oakland/San Francisco could not be done unless the running time between LA and San Jose was reduced, to which I responded that that was not the case. It could very much be done since the running time would be similar to the Palmetto. At which point you threw in the business about the distance that the Palmetto covers in that time, which seemed to me like more or less a red herring. Of course if it was an Acela it would cover even more distance with available appropriate tracks. So what?


Fair points. I guess I'm just saying that, the trip time could and should be shortened so it's more attractive to people who don't want to drive.


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## sttom (Apr 20, 2021)

The question of a revived Daylight and its run time is more a matter of are you reviving it for end to end travel or to support travel somewhere in the middle? If it’s end to end travel, a daytime train would be a poor option given how long it takes even compared to the train/bus option that already exists and works. As a local service, it would be less successful than the Palmetto just because it would serve way less people. The central coast counties only have a combined population of about 1 million people. Which most of the urban areas the Palmetto serves can come close to on their own let alone the smaller towns between them. My question would be is are the daytime buses down the coast running full and can trains match their schedule? If yes, then replacing the buses with trains could work, if not, then no.

As a night service, a 12 hour Nor Cal to So Cal run time would matter less since the passengers will be asleep for the most part. Which would be the selling point, getting on and sleeping through the trip instead of driving or riding during the day when they would otherwise be awake. So, when it comes to reviving the Daylight or the Lark, I would go for the Lark first since it’s a more obvious hole in the system. I know this is all based on equipment availability, but so is everything until their is a glut of equipment.


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## Tlcooper93 (Apr 20, 2021)

jis said:


> Which is not particularly relevant. The temporal length of the run will be similar, and it connects three significant population centers. If it managed to cover the same distance as the Palmetto it would be able to pull in Sacto too, which would be good, but not critical. Again we should not refrain from doing the good waiting for the perfect to come to pass.
> 
> To recall the thread of this discussion, I was responding to your hint that such a train between San Diego and Oakland/San Francisco could not be done unless the running time between LA and San Jose was reduced, to which I responded that that was not the case. It could very much be done since the running time would be similar to the Palmetto. At which point you threw in the business about the distance that the Palmetto covers in that time, which seemed to me like more or less a red herring. Of course if it was an Acela it would cover even more distance with available appropriate tracks. So what?



Do you think taking some stops off of the CS is financially good?
I don't know too much about LD economics, but I was always under the impression that the LD trains basically use their coach cars as regional cash grabbers. Would Amtrak admin allow for stops to be removed if they were serviced by a different train?


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## jis (Apr 20, 2021)

Cal said:


> Fair points. I guess I'm just saying that, the trip time could and should be shortened so it's more attractive to people who don't want to drive.


That makes sense. Unfortunately often many take the corollary from that which says that the service should not be introduced until trips times have been shortened and other random pieces of gold plating applied to it making the entire project so expensive that it is canned and nothing happens.


Tlcooper93 said:


> Do you think taking some stops off of the CS is financially good?
> I don't know too much about LD economics, but I was always under the impression that the LD trains basically use their coach cars as regional cash grabbers. Would Amtrak admin allow for stops to be removed if they were serviced by a different train?


You really expect me to hazard a guess as to what Amtrak, or for that matter Caltrans will or won't do? My guess is they will do something random and then scream at each other.  That would be par for the course.

More seriously, Amtrak has had no qualms removing a whole host of stops in NJ or reducing service to those stations served by NJ Transit to a point where it is more or less unusable as part of Amtrak NEC. So who knows what they'll do? Then again they combined one of their own corridor trains with an LD (Palmetto) to add stops in NJ indirectly, but not at the stations that they abandoned originally. So it can go any which way.

Steven Gardner mentioned yesterday at the RPA Council Meeting that Amtrak is seeking to reduce the 750 mile PRIIA 209 to 500 miles in the Reauthorization this year. If that happens then a San Diego to Oakland train would become an LD train, so Amtrak's baby. There is that too! Then Amtrak can decide how to distribute stops for its own two trains.


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## bms (Apr 20, 2021)

Searched my files, and this is a schedule I came up with at some point along these lines. I called it the "Coast Overnight" at the time. Made this in Excel so I will try to paste an image instead of retyping the whole thing. Looks ok from here but let me know if you can't see it.


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## Cal (Apr 20, 2021)

bms said:


> Searched my files, and this is a schedule I came up with at some point along these lines. I called it the "Coast Overnight" at the time. Made this in Excel so I will try to paste an image instead of retyping the whole thing. Looks ok from here but let me know if you can't see it.
> 
> View attachment 21807


LAX-SAC 12 hours by train, 6 hours by car... ouch


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## bms (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> LAX-SAC 12 hours by train, 6 hours by car... ouch



And even at that, the schedule I posted is faster than the Coast Starlight schedule because of skipping several stops. I think the train to Bakersfield and the bus to Los Angeles is actually faster than the Coast Starlight the whole way.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

bms said:


> And even at that, the schedule I posted is faster than the Coast Starlight schedule because of skipping several stops. I think the train to Bakersfield and the bus to Los Angeles is actually faster than the Coast Starlight the whole way.


Yep, it is. When the inbound Sunset or Chief is late, they will sometimes put connecting passengers onto a bus and then onto a San Joaquin to meet up with the Starlight in Martinez. It is definitely a faster route.


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## bms (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> Yep, it is. When the inbound Sunset or Chief is late, they will sometimes put connecting passengers onto a bus and then onto a San Joaquin to meet up with the Starlight in Martinez. It is definitely a faster route.



I never have been to Bakersfield, but I've read that there are at least five or six buses waiting at the terminal to meet the train. Hopefully I'll make it out there one day.


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## zephyr17 (Apr 21, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Coast Moonlight ?
> Coast Moonshine ?


The Lark


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## Ziv (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> LAX-SAC 12 hours by train, 6 hours by car... ouch



True, but sleeping at the wheel can lead to a very painful death, even in a Tesla... 


Seriously, though, average speed and trip times are a bit less than important if you are sleeping for most of the journey. I will admit to my bias, I love sleeper trains. LOL!


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2021)

I would like to see this train, (Spirit of California) reinstated....perhaps this time going to the Caltrain station in San Francisco, instead of Sacramento. There could be a cross platform transfer at San Jose for a Capitol train. 


The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2021)

One interesting trivia about the _Spirit_....I believe it was the only state supported train to have sleepers. I am not sure if the short lived overnite train between New York and Niagara Falls went thru to Toronto, or had a connection, or if it had a sleeper....


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

railiner said:


> One interesting trivia about the _Spirit_....I believe it was the only state supported train to have sleepers. I am not sure if the short lived overnite train between New York and Niagara Falls went thru to Toronto, or had a connection, or if it had a sleeper....


In any event that train was not state supported. It was an Amtrak funded train. Before PRIIA Section 209 came about, only the Adirondack was a 403b. Everything else in New York was Amtrak.


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

railiner said:


> One interesting trivia about the _Spirit_....I believe it was the only state supported train to have sleepers. I am not sure if the short lived overnite train between New York and Niagara Falls went thru to Toronto, or had a connection, or if it had a sleeper....


The weekend Niagara Rainbow with the single slumbercoach to Toronto was not 403b nor was the Maple Leaf at the time, as noted above.





__





The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)






www.timetables.org


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

Ziv said:


> True, but sleeping at the wheel can lead to a very painful death, even in a Tesla...
> 
> 
> Seriously, though, average speed and trip times are a bit less than important if you are sleeping for most of the journey. I will admit to my bias, I love sleeper trains. LOL!


Yes, however I'm sure that would make some people re-think. And if they want to do corridor service...


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## Asher (Apr 21, 2021)

Ziv said:


> True, but sleeping at the wheel can lead to a very painful death, even in a Tesla...
> 
> 
> Seriously, though, average speed and trip times are a bit less than important if you are sleeping for most of the journey. I will admit to my bias, I love sleeper trains. LOL!


I like the sleeping part, not so much getting thrown off when I wake up.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> Yes, however I'm sure that would make some people re-think. And if they want to do corridor service...


Notwithstanding all that, the coast route will never be speeded up significantly. It will remain a bucolic scenic route. All real travelers will travel via the inland route upon the completion of the HSR.


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

jis said:


> bucolic


 Well said!


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## tomfuller (Apr 21, 2021)

bms said:


> And even at that, the schedule I posted is faster than the Coast Starlight schedule because of skipping several stops. I think the train to Bakersfield and the bus to Los Angeles is actually faster than the Coast Starlight the whole way.


Next month I'm taking the CS from Oregon to Sacramento, eating breakfast in SAC, taking the bus to Stockton and the San Joaquin to Bakersfield and a bus to LAUS. I will be in LAUS at least 2 hours ahead of the Coast Starlight (daylight?)


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## Mailliw (Apr 21, 2021)

If any state could pull off an intrastate night train it's California, but it would need new equipment. Best option would be to order versions of the new Nightjet trainsets from Siemens adapted for US safety & ADA requirements. I think the pod couchette concept could work as an intermediate option between coach and sleeper. Food service needs would be minimal.


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> The weekend Niagara Rainbow with the single slumbercoach to Toronto was not 403b nor was the Maple Leaf at the time, as noted above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks...the linked timetable answered several of my questions. I remembered it being a once a week operation, but forgot that it had a Slumbercoach....
I wonder if the early Monday arrival in NY attracted commuters from Albany, Hudson, or Rhinecliff....the possible customs delay may have put the kabash to that....


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## jiml (Apr 21, 2021)

railiner said:


> Thanks...the linked timetable answered several of my questions. I remembered it being a once a week operation, but forgot that it had a Slumbercoach....
> I wonder if the early Monday arrival in NY attracted commuters from Albany, Hudson, or Rhinecliff....the possible customs delay may have put the kabash to that....


Interesting on this subject, @Seaboard92 has posted a review of the 1994 timetable showing the previous year to this, where there was a cross-platform transfer involved.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 21, 2021)

Removing stops to speed up trains is a red herring. Seems great on paper, but rarely makes a major impact. In fact, removing stops often causes ridership to drop. The better option is to remove chokepoints (like making sure that sidings are in the right spot) and make sure that stops are no longer than necessary. Compare an average Amtrak station stop to a commuter rail train and you see there's a lot of time wasted.

Another option would be to mess with the train timings. Move the Coast Starlight to be the overnight train between LA and Oakland -- and add the Coast Daylight as the daytime train between LA and SF. That would also allow the existing equipment to be used (Superliner for Starlight and Surfliner/CA Cars/Comet Cars for the Daylight).


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> Interesting on this subject, @Seaboard92 has posted a review of the 1994 timetable showing the previous year to this, where there was a cross-platform transfer involved.


Ahhh....that may have explained my fuzzy recollection as to whether it ran through or not....thanks for that info.


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## Mailliw (Apr 21, 2021)

Having the Coast Starlight run overnight between LA and the Vay Area is probably the most realistic scenario for a night train, but what about connections with the Empire Builder in Seattle and Portland? Would those still be possible?


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Having the Coast Starlight run overnight between LA and the Vay Area is probably the most realistic scenario for a night train, but what about connections with the Empire Builder in Seattle and Portland? Would those still be possible?


If I am correct the Portland connection would probably be gone, and there would be quite a long layover for the Seattle one. On the bright side, you should now be able to connect with the CZ


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## Ziv (Apr 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> If I am correct the Portland connection would probably be gone, and there would be quite a long layover for the Seattle one. On the bright side, you should now be able to connect with the CZ



I may be missing the point entirely, but is it possible that San Diego to San Francisco (and vice versa) ought to be the limit of the train, no going on from there, just take the train to the barn, clean it and get it ready to head back to the other end of the route? SD to SF is 502 miles, which can be done in less than 10 hours if need be, but it might work best for arrivals/departures in LA and San Jose if they stretch it to 11 hours. The longer the route, the more likely cascading delays will mess with on time arrival. Plus 502 miles fits into the proposed change to the PRIIA 750 mile LD rule, which would become a 500 mile rule instead.
When it comes to sleeper trains in the US, I think that the KISS principle is a good one to follow.
A major problem with that idea is that I don't believe that there is anywhere to store a night train in either San Francisco or San Diego... In the immortal word of Rosanne Rosanadana, "Never mind." LOL!


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## Asher (Apr 21, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Having the Coast Starlight run overnight between LA and the Vay Area is probably the most realistic scenario for a night train, but what about connections with the Empire Builder in Seattle and Portland? Would those still be possible?


One of the best advertising photos Amtrak has is the Coast Starlight running along the coast and you want to make it in the dark of the night.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 21, 2021)

So to be clear, the previously proposed "Coast Daylight" would have just extended one of the two daily San Diego-San Luis Obispo runs on the Surfliner north to San Francisco or San Jose. 

There are facilities to overnight a Surfliner train in San Diego. Generally, they just keep the train on the station tracks, but they could also park trains at the SD&AE/San Diego Trolley yard where the Coaster trains are parked during the day.

San Jose Diridon Station and San Francisco King Street station both have similar options. You could just keep a train on a station track, or they could deadhead a train to the Caltrain yard in San Jose. The plan was always to have CA HSR trains sharing tracks with Caltrain between San Jose and San Francisco, so there are track slots available.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

Ziv said:


> I may be missing the point entirely, but is it possible that San Diego to San Francisco (and vice versa) ought to be the limit of the train, no going on from there, just take the train to the barn, clean it and get it ready to head back to the other end of the route? SD to SF is 502 miles, which can be done in less than 10 hours if need be, but it might work best for arrivals/departures in LA and San Jose if they stretch it to 11 hours. The longer the route, the more likely cascading delays will mess with on time arrival. Plus 502 miles fits into the proposed change to the PRIIA 750 mile LD rule, which would become a 500 mile rule instead.
> When it comes to sleeper trains in the US, I think that the KISS principle is a good one to follow.
> A major problem with that idea is that I don't believe that there is anywhere to store a night train in either San Francisco or San Diego... In the immortal word of Rosanne Rosanadana, "Never mind." LOL!


I was talking about if the Starlight schedule were to be changed so the Bay Are to LA is overnight.


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## Ziv (Apr 21, 2021)

Yep, I was missing the point. Sorry.
And I was also wrong about which Saturday Night Live character had the catch phrase, "Never mind." I am batting 0 for 2 so far. I think it was the Emily Litella character not Roseanne. Oh well. 


Cal said:


> I was talking about if the Starlight schedule were to be changed so the Bay Are to LA is overnight.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

Ziv said:


> Yep, I was missing the point. Sorry.
> Still channeling Roseanne Roseanadana.


we've all done that before


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2021)

Ideally, the Coast Starlight would remain in its present schedule, and an additional train would run from Southern California to San Francisco, overnight on the coast route. With a connection at San Jose for a Capitol train...


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2021)

railiner said:


> Ideally, the Coast Starlight would remain in its present schedule, and an additional train would run from Southern California to San Francisco, overnight on the coast route. With a connection at San Jose for a Capitol train...


I agree. With that being overnight, the CS will have to be renamed _Starlight_!


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## trainman74 (Apr 21, 2021)

From our friends at timetables.org, here's what the schedule for the previous overnight sleeper-equipped state-supported California train, the Spirit of California, looked like in 1982.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 21, 2021)

Here's my pitch for messing with the Coast Starlight timetable.
Sleeping cars are a limited commodity... regular coach cars are not. 
If the LA-Bay area market is the most important... put the sleepers on the overnight train... and make the Coast Daylight a coach-class train.
That said, if Amtrak can spare about four sleepers (which means they can't run on other routes)... then this is an unnecessary discussion.


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## railiner (Apr 22, 2021)

Cal said:


> I agree. With that being overnight, the CS will have to be renamed _Starlight_!


I suggest the new train get the Coast Starlight name, since that is what it would do.
And....they could rename the present thru train, the "Pacific Coast Limited"....or "PCL"


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## jis (Apr 22, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> Here's my pitch for messing with the Coast Starlight timetable.
> Sleeping cars are a limited commodity... regular coach cars are not.
> If the LA-Bay area market is the most important... put the sleepers on the overnight train... and make the Coast Daylight a coach-class train.
> That said, if Amtrak can spare about four sleepers (which means they can't run on other routes)... then this is an unnecessary discussion.


In reality though Amtrak will spare no Sleepers and the Coast Starlight will remain precisely as it is  So it is just another flight of fantasy discussion anyway until more Sleepers are acquired.  One possibility is if California cun fund wreck reconstruction of three Sleepers if such are sitting in the back lot of Beech Grove, and deploy them on the two consist for the overnight train with one spare standby/shop spare.


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## JermyZP (Apr 22, 2021)

Yesterday I was on the Pacific Surfliner and the car attendant was telling me that there was plans to start work on Salinas station for Intercity service for pacific surfliner before covid, but those plans are now delayed. It looks like Amtrak and California were looking into plans for the Pacific Surfliner to extend from SLO to San Jose long before Amtrak Conect was started.


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## joelkfla (Apr 22, 2021)

JermyZP said:


> Yesterday I was on the Pacific Surfliner and the car attendant was telling me that there was plans to start work on Salinas station for Intercity service for pacific surfliner before covid, but those plans are now delayed. It looks like Amtrak and California were looking into plans for the Pacific Surfliner to extend from SLO to San Jose long before Amtrak Conect was started.


I was a WDW bus driver for 9 years. For a long time, there's been a joke around the Disney fan community, that if you hear something from a bus driver, it's not going to happen. That wasn't completely true, but for the most part we knew nothing more about the Disney Co.'s plans than the average Joe. But some drivers would pick up a random rumor and chat it up with the Guests.

Sometimes I wonder whether Amtrak OBS are in the same situation.


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## bms (Apr 23, 2021)

jis said:


> In reality though Amtrak will spare no Sleepers and the Coast Starlight will remain precisely as it is  So it is just another flight of fantasy discussion anyway until more Sleepers are acquired.  One possibility is if California cun fund wreck reconstruction of three Sleepers if such are sitting in the back lot of Beech Grove, and deploy them on the two consist for the overnight train with one spare standby/shop spare.



Considering the current revenue structure, Amtrak should really order a lot more sleepers. Sleeper fares are high and they're still often sold out. Ideas for new service are sometimes dismissed because there isn't enough equipment. When it's more than $300 for a one-night sleeper ride from NYP to CHI, Amtrak is making enough money off that service that it's worth the investment in more cars. Meanwhile, I doubt they made anything on the many coach trips I took from CLE-BOS (677 miles) for $48 or CLE-NYP (618 miles) for $45.


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## jis (Apr 23, 2021)

First Amtrak has to decide that it actually wants to grow the overnight journey business. So far I have seen scant evidence of that. The latest Connect US map gives scant comfort to LD growth advocates like me.


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## MIrailfan (May 11, 2021)

rickycourtney said:


> Yes, it should be possible to run directly between Los Angeles and San Francisco.


They did in Disaster on the Coastliner movie.


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## Willbridge (May 11, 2021)

railiner said:


> I suggest the new train get the Coast Starlight name, since that is what it would do.
> And....they could rename the present thru train, the "Pacific Coast Limited"....or "PCL"


The direct Portland<>Los Angeles SP train was named _West Coast. _While that was via Sacramento and Bakersfield the name would better describe the current Trains 11/14 and the _CS_ name could migrate to the overnight service.

As for suggestions of flipping the CS by 12 or so hours, that's a California Uber Alles idea. It could work as a second LAX<>SEA train, but if done with a single train would kill Trains 27/28 and the ridership out of the stretch from Salem to Tacoma.

The former _Spirit of California _as shown in the timetable above was designed by people who knew the market and was sabotaged by forces outside itself. It is a simple operation and hits big cities at good times. (I just was reading the SP attacks on it from my files.)

And in a better world, the last southbound and first northbound _San Joaquin _trains would run overnight via Barstow to LA and/or San Diego, serving a completely different set of Southland suburbs than the Coast Line overnight train.


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## railiner (May 11, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> And in a better world, the last southbound and first northbound _San Joaquin _trains would run overnight via Barstow to LA and/or San Diego, serving a completely different set of Southland suburbs than the Coast Line overnight train.


If they did that, they could also have a Thruway connection from Barstow to/from Las Vegas....at least until a real train starts running that segment....


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## Willbridge (May 12, 2021)

Here's some background on the first Amtrak California attempt at overnight service. In reading through it I realized that this train belonged to the era when California thought of itself as one entity rather than as Balkanized auxiliaries to transit systems. There are pros and cons to both approaches.

There were obstacles even after the train was launched -- a bomb threat and a suicide on the inaugural run provided interesting content for news media and a 1911 law could have removed any elected official from office for accepting a free ride. The regular service was tested by the Blishaks and their report will seem familiar to recent riders on the revived _Night Owl._


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## railiner (May 12, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Here's some background on the first Amtrak California attempt at overnight service. In reading through it I realized that this train belonged to the era when California thought of itself as one entity rather than as Balkanized auxiliaries to transit systems. There are pros and cons to both approaches.
> 
> There were obstacles even after the train was launched -- a bomb threat and a suicide on the inaugural run provided interesting content for news media and a 1911 law could have removed any elected official from office for accepting a free ride. The regular service was tested by the Blishaks and their report will seem familiar to recent riders on the revived _Night Owl._


Great reads, thanks for posting! Yes, _RTN_ was the 'AU' in its pre-internet day...


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## coventry801 (May 20, 2021)

Cal said:


> LAX-SAC 12 hours by train, 6 hours by car... ouch


12 hours is a perfect duration for overnight train. I would be pissed if I pay for a room and ended up not having enough sleep for 2nd day’s work or tourism.


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## MARC Rider (May 20, 2021)

coventry801 said:


> 12 hours is a perfect duration for overnight train. I would be pissed if I pay for a room and ended up not having enough sleep for 2nd day’s work or tourism.


Boston to Washington on 67 is about 9 hours, and that's with having to pad the schedule with long station stops, and that seems to be a popular route.


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## Cal (May 20, 2021)

coventry801 said:


> 12 hours is a perfect duration for overnight train. I would be pissed if I pay for a room and ended up not having enough sleep for 2nd day’s work or tourism.


Yes, but if they also want to do a Palmetto-style train, that's a big gap between driving and train.


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## west point (May 21, 2021)

If Amtrak had enough sleepers we might already see the service but it may be many years before Amtrak does get enough sleepers.


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## neroden (May 21, 2021)

jis said:


> First Amtrak has to decide that it actually wants to grow the overnight journey business. So far I have seen scant evidence of that. The latest Connect US map gives scant comfort to LD growth advocates like me.


Amtrak top management has been pretty clear on its hostility to making money, and desire to chase away customers, yes. We can hope that that will get changed if we pressure them because this is obviously not what Congress wants.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (May 29, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> The Lark



Southern Pacific's "Lark" (Train): Consist, Schedule, Route (american-rails.com) 

Keep the CS as the "day" train between the Bay Area (Sacramento/Oakland) and LAX, have the "Lark" (or rename it "Moonlight", "Spirit of California", etc) actually serve San Francisco instead. The SP schedule could be used as a template (I'm sure you'd have to pad it today).


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## railiner (May 30, 2021)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Southern Pacific's "Lark" (Train): Consist, Schedule, Route (american-rails.com)
> 
> Keep the CS as the "day" train between the Bay Area (Sacramento/Oakland) and LAX, have the "Lark" (or rename it "Moonlight", "Spirit of California", etc) actually serve San Francisco instead. The SP schedule could be used as a template (I'm sure you'd have to pad it today).


Thanks for that timetable link!
What I found interesting in it, was that at various times, the "Oakland Lark" section, ran from Jack London Square to San Jose, rather than the main Oakland station at 16th Street, or in some instances from the Oakland Pier. Towards the end, a bus shuttled Oakland passengers to/from San Francisco.


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## George Harris (Jun 14, 2021)

First, when talking anything Bakersfield to LA, the reason for buses is because the railroad alignment is super slow due to its alignment. It makes the I-5 "grapevine" look like a Great Plains freeway. Additionally it is heavily congested with freight. So any down the valley train continuing to LA is a non-starter until the HSR gets their line built.

Second, you won't get much more speed out of the Coast Line without major alignment work. Yes, CTC and powered sidings would help reliability, but not much on a schedule except removing some slack. Who is going to pay for it? It provides no real benefit to UP. Best leave the Starlight more or less as is. An overnight similar to the previous overnight seems to be the better solution, and should attract enough people to fill more than one sleeper. When thinking sleeper cost, consider that it should be saving a hotel night for many of its passengers. Under current realities, it should have reliable internet. Yes, extend it to San Diego. There have been plans kicked around for a south end of LAUS to San Diego line connection, which should cut several minutes of the run time (maybe 10 min?)


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jun 14, 2021)

A more readable Lark schedule from our own Eric Bowen (Streamliner Schedules):

The Lark - March, 1968 - Streamliner Schedules


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## Cal (Jun 14, 2021)

George Harris said:


> Second, you won't get much more speed out of the Coast Line without major alignment work. Yes, CTC and powered sidings would help reliability, but not much on a schedule except removing some slack. Who is going to pay for it? It provides no real benefit to UP. Best leave the Starlight more or less as is. An overnight similar to the previous overnight seems to be the better solution, and should attract enough people to fill more than one sleeper. When thinking sleeper cost, consider that it should be saving a hotel night for many of its passengers. Under current realities, it should have reliable internet. Yes, extend it to San Diego. There have been plans kicked around for a south end of LAUS to San Diego line connection, which should cut several minutes of the run time (maybe 10 min?)


Well Amtrak wants to extend more Surfliners to SLO, but I don't know how they're supposed to do too much with the current speeds. Unless they want trains arriving at midnight.


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## jis (Jun 14, 2021)

Cal said:


> Well Amtrak wants to extend more Surfliners to SLO, but I don't know how they're supposed to do too much with the current speeds. Unless they want trains arriving at midnight.


Amtrak is unlikely to want to or do anything unless Caltrans asks them to do it with an adequate check attached.


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## Cal (Jun 14, 2021)

jis said:


> Amtrak is unlikely to want to or do anything unless Caltrans asks them to do it with an adequate check attached.


It's in the 15 year ConnectUs plan. Probably is on Caltrans part.


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## jis (Jun 14, 2021)

Cal said:


> It's in the 15 year ConnectUs plan. Probably is on Caltrans part.


15 year ConnectUS Plan is simply based on an analysis of population patterns and urban affinity mapped to some extent where tracks or ROWs exist. There is no plan beyond that at this moment. We were told as much during the presentation to RPA. This is to be used as a guidance on what to work on in Amtrak's view in order to provide it with some large number of millions of dollars to cover the first five years, only to have them foist the entire thing onto the States after that.

There is a different 30 or 35 year analysis done on a per zone basis by the FRA, that has some overlaps. But that is a more comprehensive plan covering all potential rail operators, not just Amtrak. It does have a 15 - 25 year window part, which is very different from Amtrak's additions of a few proposed corridors.


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## west point (Jun 14, 2021)

A few years ago I would have thought an overnight rain would not work. Now however the way both LAX and SFO have embraced rail that opinion has completely changed. The biggest problem is the same every where for Amtrak. Lack of equipment especially sleepers. Unless CAL DOT was to buy sleepers it would be 5 - 8 years before Amtrak will have any to spare for the call it the Lark route.

How many sleepers to start? 5 just to go LAX - SFO. 2 each direction except weekends just one ? Spare in LAX for maintenance rotation. will have to use Amtrak locos as CalTrain will not have any diesel trains available to attach as Gilroy trains do not meet Lark's schedule. Unless AEMs still around. The need for an electric to Transbay terminal when it is in service is a question?
Another 4 sleepers once train splits at San Jose for Sacramento. Attach car(s) to next Capitol. San Jose would require a mid station connection track so Lark drop cars and Capitol back onto Car(s) by way of switch. Opposite for Lark to attach for train to LAX

San Diego car can be part of this if there is enough demand. Biggest problem is rotating car thru LAX maintenance. have to change car O & D at SAC and SFO.

Have not considered how the coaches would be placed once Lark splits in San Jose ? schedules can probably tightened from 1/2 - 1 Hour once improvements mainly to UP tracks are implemented. AWWs will need provisions to detour over Central corridor before service even starts.


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## Mailliw (Jun 14, 2021)

The lack of sleeping cars is a huge stumbling block to an new overnight train in North America. It's not like Europe where there's a large inventory of reasonable aged equipment that can be leased and/or refurbished.


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## SanDiegan (Jun 14, 2021)

It's been tried. I rode the "The Spirit," aka "The Medfly," a couple of times and found the overnight schedule quite useful. The overnight Thruway Bus 4785, that connects with Train 785, runs on a similar schedule and is still very popular.









Spirit of California - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





The best way to revive the train, with minimal impact, would be to extend a Pacific Surfliner north from SLO to SAC and a Capitol Corridor train south from SJC to LAX (or SAN). If operated like a European "Night Train," the 12 hr. overnight running time is not a problem.


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## George Harris (Jun 15, 2021)

The thought of a south connection into LAUS which would allow San Diego to points north of LA trains to continue without reversing direction, among other things has been in the plans for some time. Of course given the usual California bureaucratic system and the pseudo environmentalists screaming dodge every tree, bush, building, and last known habitat of the dry land snail darter, we have thousands of pages of studies and a final proposed alignment that is deadly slow. For more information, the project is called Link Union Station. There is the 1,562 page Final Environmental Impact Statement at https://media.metro.net/projects_studies/regionalrail/LINKUS_FEIR/LinkUSFinalEIR.pdf or if you don't hate yourself that much you can get most of the worthwhile information and a flavor of what happens in these things in the Project Description; https://media.metro.net/projects_studies/regionalrail/LINKUS_FEIR/LINKUS_FEIR_02.pdf
Or an even shorter document with plans, but fuzzy ones, and in reproduction, not concept (How can you spend millions on reports and not get clearly reproduced plans in it:


https://media.metro.net/projects_studies/regionalrail/LINKUS_FEIR/AppendixC_LinkUSDetailedConstructionPhasingScenarios.pdf


And if you want to see a discussion that has schedules for all trains into it at the time of the report, there is


https://media.metro.net/projects_studies/regionalrail/LINKUS_FEIR/AppendixB_LinkUSRailPlanningTechnicalMemorandum.pdf


When I see these things and their outcome, I feel like shaking some of these people and say, think about what you are trying to do. Buy a few more buildings, make a straighter alignment with larger radius curves and you can double the speed of trains through here. Chances are 20 years from now the whole area will have changed and all the complainers will have moved off to other things to whine about and you will be stuck with your slow speed railroad forever. (Remember, the Roman roads are exactly where they were built 2,000 years ago and entire civilizations have come and gone multiple time since then.)


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