# Empire Builder Summer Blues Started Early this year



## montana mike

I have been following the travails of the EB's both east and west bound and the delays are starting early this year! We haven't even gotten into the "hot" season yet and delays of 2+ hours into Chicago are becoming the norm (over 3 hours yesterday). It would appear the causes for these delays are many and not necessarily related--weather, construction, slow orders, crew issues, heavy freight traffic, mechanical, et. al. For example, I note that every day now for the past several weeks both east and westbound EBs have lost 60-90 minutes between Fargo and Grand Forks alone (construction).

I take this train fairly frequently and this spring, even with the flooding, the trips were quite close to staying on schedule, but it appears that we are in for a lonnnnnnng summer for folks traveling on Empire Builder. This will cause many passengers who have connections with other trains or other forms of transportation to miss them. Bummer.


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## D.P. Roberts

montana mike said:


> This will cause many passengers who have connections with other trains or other forms of transportation to miss them. Bummer.


The connection between the eastbound EB and the eastbound CL is particularly tight at only 135 minutes, but the EB has been averaging 102 minutes late over the past month. I have no idea whether the eastbound CL has been held for a late-arriving EB or not, but in 26 days the EB has missed the CL departure 8 times (31%).

Personally, I'm assuming that I'm going to miss that connection. As of now, on my travel day there's room on the later-departing LSL for some coach & sleeper pax, but I have no idea how much room, and who knows if it will sell out between now and then. Personally, I've built an extra day into my schedule just in case his happens. At worst, I get an extra day in Chicago, with food and shelter at Amtrak's expense. However, I would best that most passengers can't plan on that.

I wonder if there are even bigger headaches if the EB misses those connections multiple days in a row, as it has now.


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## tomfuller

If you have an extra day built into your schedule, consider taking the EB only as far as MKE. Spend the night in MKE and then take a Hiawatha any time the next day up until the 3PM departure


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## crescent2

What is Amtrak's usual remedy for the missed connections from the EB? Apparently, from this thread, they're being missed a LOT lately. Can they bus passengers to catch up with the train at a later stop? I'm trying to plan an AGR trip for next year in sleepers. I cannot sleep in coach at all, so having to reschedule on the next day's trains would be a bummer (assuming sleepers are all sold out). Thanks-

When do the EB's "Summer Blues" usually start and end? My travel dates are flexible.


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## Ryan

Here's what last year's looked like:







The heavy line is a 10 day moving average that helps smooth the data out a little bit. The raw data is the fine line in the background.

I think that the general consensus is that last year was a particularly bad year. I have the data for other years laying around, I need to unpack it and check it out.


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## crescent2

Thanks for your data, Ryan. Don't worry about previous years. From the graph, it looks a bit scary for making a 2 hr. connection. I'd love to take the Cardinal, but IDK about that close connection time!


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## amamba

Crescent, I was on a very late EB last year. They brought on a customer service rep at some point prior to MKE. They called people down to the SSL by their train connection number to get vouchers for hotels, etc. We arrived in time for the next day's LSL and some folks were put on the LSL in coach and some in sleeper - but I think there were sleepers open because the train behind us was also too late to make the connection to the LSL. The CONO was held for my train and they added an extra coach onto the LSL for the extra pax.


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## D.P. Roberts

Ryan said:


> Here's what last year's looked like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The heavy line is a 10 day moving average that helps smooth the data out a little bit. The raw data is the fine line in the background.
> 
> I think that the general consensus is that last year was a particularly bad year. I have the data for other years laying around, I need to unpack it and check it out.


Wow, thanks for the graph, that's really eye-opening.

Even going by the actual fine line data, it looks like the EB missed the CL & Cardinal connection almost continuously from mid June to the end of August. That's pretty bad, even by Amtrak's standards.


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## crescent2

Amamba, thanks. It's looking like the CONO would be safer. The Cardinal sounds like a very scenic route--but not if you're not on it.


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## montana mike

I have always made the CONO and LSL on my connections, but the CL has been missed more than made. My best on time trips have been in the late winter and early spring (before the red river floods) and fall. Mid summer--July and August are usually slow. Just the fact the the EB is always full and takes extra time at almost every stop, then coupled with increased freight traffic, heat slow orders and the clincher--lots of track work--usually mean 2-3 hour delays into CHI and lesser delays for intermediate stops. Interestingly westbound the arrival times are not as bad--partly due to a lot more padding in the schedule and perhaps less freight issues, but that's just a guess..


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## crescent2

Any suggestions for the best time of year? Summer seems to have its problems. Where is the best scenery eastbound, and how much of it is missed when daylight hours are shorter? Thanks-


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## Texan Eagle

All of these are for the eastbound, but what about westbound? I am scheduled to be taking the EB from CHI to PDX, connecting to the southbound CS to Bay Area over the July 4th weekend. How are things looking in terms of delays and missed connections? Should I be worried already?


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## D T Nelson

crescent2 said:


> What is Amtrak's usual remedy for the missed connections from the EB?


I was on the EB in March, eastbound, connecting to the CL. We left Seattle about 90 minutes late due to the last-minute need to remake the train to include a working dining car. We made up some time in Washington and Montana, but lost time again in North Dakota and wound up getting into Chicago about 3.5 hours late. The CL was long gone. We were met on the platform by very nice customer service reps with clipboards who asked us our names and told us what our fate was. Many, but not all, of us DC-bound passengers were ushered to a conference room to wait to board buses for a three-hour ride to Indianapolis where the Cardinal would be waiting for us -- although the Cardinal left Chicago about a half-hour before the CL it is so slow a bus that could not catch the CL could catch it. We were given new tickets and led out to the curb and we boarded the buses. My bus was not crowded and I had a seat pair to myself. The buses arrived in Indy a few minutes before the Cardinal was scheduled to depart, and after pax and baggage were loaded it left about 15 minutes late. I wound up getting to DC about six hours later than originally scheduled, so it worked out about as well as it could have.

I was the only sleeper passenger to get rebooked in a sleeping compartment. I got the accessible room, the only vacant room. I know there were at least three other people booked in sleepers on the CL who rode the Cardinal in coach. I'm not sure how it was that I got that room and the others had to ride in coach. Maybe because I paid for my ticket with cash money and not AGR points? Or I paid more for my room than the other people did? I know the airlines have such rules for rebooking people. I remember one Amtrak employee saying something to the effect of "We guarantee you transportation, but we do not guarantee a level of accommodation," in response to a man asking if he could opt to spend the night in Chicago if he wasn't getting rebooked in a sleeper.

As I said above, not all of the folks who were scheduled to be on the CL wound up on the Cardinal; a couple whose acquaintance I made on the EB were told they would be put up for the night in Chicago with the promise of a ticket on the next day's CL. I don't know if they got a sleeper as they originally booked or were put in coach on that train. I believe they did not get put on the Cardinal because they were connecting to another train in DC and could not make that connection via the Cardinal.


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## JayPea

Texan Eagle said:


> All of these are for the eastbound, but what about westbound? I am scheduled to be taking the EB from CHI to PDX, connecting to the southbound CS to Bay Area over the July 4th weekend. How are things looking in terms of delays and missed connections? Should I be worried already?



Westbound is still looking pretty good. I just so happened to check 27's OTP into Portland earlier as I am going from Spokane to Portland, then up to Seattle, on the 27th. For the last four weeks, it has been early more often than not. Longest delay in that time has been two hours, both of those within the last week, however. Even two hours late would present no problems for you. Hopefully the westbound trend continues.


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## Ryan

Texan Eagle said:


> All of these are for the eastbound, but what about westbound? I am scheduled to be taking the EB from CHI to PDX, connecting to the southbound CS to Bay Area over the July 4th weekend. How are things looking in terms of delays and missed connections? Should I be worried already?


Ask and ye shall receive!

Over the 988 days that I have data for (most of 2010-2012), 27 arrived into PDX more than 455 minutes (and thus after the currently scheduled departure time of 11) late 57 times (5.76%). That does not take into account any connections made because 11 was held for 27, or 27 was late but 11 was later, or folks were bussed.

Overall, I'd say that it looks pretty good.






Edit: The chances of making the connection look pretty good. The summer of 2011 meltdown just looks terribad any way you slice it.


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## NW cannonball

Last few runs of #8 looks like losing 1.5 hours Minot - Grand Forks and lose an other hour or so GFK - Fargo.

Expect this 2.5 hours loss from now until the ground freezes?


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## anir dendroica

It's not a soft track issue but a construction one. BNSF is bringing the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions up to modern mainline standards to handle oil traffic. New track after tie replacement is restricted to 20-25 mph for a few days until things get settled and maintains a lesser speed restriction for some time after that. Easy to lose a couple of hours plugging along at 25 mph, especially when you have to wait for freights going the same speed.

Overall the Fargo-Minot improvements should be good for the EB in the longer term. In the very near term that means long construction delays this summer. In the 1-10 year term it means that any gains due to higher track speed could well be offset by delays meeting crude oil trains. In the very long term it means excess capacity once Bakken oil output begins to decline.


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## Rail Freak

I have a roomette reservation from West Glacier to St Petersburg this summer. If we miss the EB - CL connection, would Amtrak offer me a hotel & airfare to Tampa the next day?

Thanx


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## Ryan

No, they'll offer you a hotel and a seat on the next train.


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## Rail Freak

Ryan said:


> No, they'll offer you a hotel and a seat on the next train.


Yeah, that's what I thought. Doubt seriously if there would be a roomette available! Chi - Fla, in coach would make me a very unhappy camper!!!! :angry2: Gotta think on this again!


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## crescent2

Thanks, everyone for your very helpful posts.

Rail Freak, I know what you mean. I'm chewing on doing a loooong AGR trip in sleepers next year, and winding up in coach would be a horrible turn of events. I can't sleep in coach at all, and a week+ with no showers? It is more than a bit scary!


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## montana mike

anir dendroica said:


> It's not a soft track issue but a construction one. BNSF is bringing the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions up to modern mainline standards to handle oil traffic. New track after tie replacement is restricted to 20-25 mph for a few days until things get settled and maintains a lesser speed restriction for some time after that. Easy to lose a couple of hours plugging along at 25 mph, especially when you have to wait for freights going the same speed.
> Overall the Fargo-Minot improvements should be good for the EB in the longer term. In the very near term that means long construction delays this summer. In the 1-10 year term it means that any gains due to higher track speed could well be offset by delays meeting crude oil trains. In the very long term it means excess capacity once Bakken oil output begins to decline.


Looks like it is going to be a long and slow summer for the Hi-Line!

Since Bakken is supposed to last for 100-150 years I doubt this will help any of us!! :mellow: I spoke with a friend who works for BNSF and the railroad is anticipating greatly increased tanker train traffic for way more than 5 years-even if the EPA ever approves the pipeline. He says there is so much oil and natural gas being produced or planned for production that both will be needed for decades.

Note on today's Eastbound EB plugging along in Wisconsin--now running about 5 hours late--I think we may have jinxed the train.


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## gn2276

Last week I was back home in Malta MT and saw that it looks like BNSF will be replacing ties both to the east and west of Malta.


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## amamba

Lol that Amtrak would provide a flight.


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## Bus Nut

amamba said:


> Crescent, I was on a very late EB last year. They brought on a customer service rep at some point prior to MKE. They called people down to the SSL by their train connection number to get vouchers for hotels, etc. We arrived in time for the next day's LSL and some folks were put on the LSL in coach and some in sleeper - but I think there were sleepers open because the train behind us was also too late to make the connection to the LSL. The CONO was held for my train and they added an extra coach onto the LSL for the extra pax.


Wow. Considering what's been said on other threads about Amtrak systemwide and LD in particular losses (and EB actually is a fairly well performing train for a Western LD), it seems like enhancing access, speed, and reliability from Minnesota through to Chicago on the one hand (speed upgrades, passing sides, etc), and having EB LD's from Chicago leave later which could be accomplished with speed, access, and reliability upgrades through the Midwest and mountain states, would save a lot of operating expense for Amtrak as well as improving customer goodwill.


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## Bus Nut

D T Nelson said:


> Many, but not all, of us DC-bound passengers were ushered to a conference room to wait to board buses for a three-hour ride to Indianapolis where the Cardinal would be waiting for us -- although the Cardinal left Chicago about a half-hour before the CL it is so slow a bus that could not catch the CL could catch it.


A ha ha, the Card. The route through Indiana is absolutely awful. I blame Indianans. They are spending all da moneys on highways right now. Some friends of mine live there and think the "enhancements" are totally unneccessary and will make driving worse. I've never actually seen a congested road in downstate Indiana. The airport in Indy is very pretty. Amtrak and bus service is depressingly awful. It looks like the best outcome will be some time in the future a daily Cardinal that uses the IC line and then crosses east to Indy. Indiana needs to seriously get a grip.


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## dlagrua

We were on the CL on June 5th a day after the EB missed its connection. All connecting sleeper passengers were accommodated as they added an additional sleeper car to the consist. The train had three sleepers that day.

I am guessing that the reason that they don't hold the CL at CHI is because of the potential bustitution, that could occur at Pittsburgh due to CSX track work at Cumberland ,MD. . If the train leaves CLE two hours late its bus time for* everyone*. Probably cheaper for Amtrak to put the few passengers up at the Hyatt, give them cab fare and meal money than to be faced with bussing everyone to all stops after PGH.


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## PaulM

dlagrua said:


> We were on the CL on June 5th a day after the EB missed its connection. All connecting sleeper passengers were accommodated as they added an additional sleeper car to the consist. The train had three sleepers that day.I am guessing that the reason that they don't hold the CL at CHI is because of the potential bustitution, that could occur at Pittsburgh due to CSX track work at Cumberland ,MD. . If the train leaves CLE two hours late its bus time for* everyone*. Probably cheaper for Amtrak to put the few passengers up at the Hyatt, give them cab fare and meal money than to be faced with bussing everyone to all stops after PGH.


Good to see Amtrak has some flexibility.

If it is any consolation, I believe the construction will be over soon. At least on July 15 the schedule reverts to the 1/2 later departure from CHI.


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## montana mike

Really bad day for the EB yesterday--First a Bad Ordered diner delayed the CHI departure for 4 hours (one would think they could turn have remedied that situation in less than 4 hours), this train is now around 5 hours late and a good candidate for turnaround in SPK. Then the east bound EB coming into CHI yesterday PM somehow lost almost 90 minutes between MKE and CHI (normally a place where the EB can make up a little time) and ended up being over 2 hours late into CHI town. Bummer.


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## berkyo

We took the EB from Minot ND in may last year and were 9 hours late to Chi.. Might be the train you were on Amamba. There was flooding and then our train hit a truck racing the RR crossing in a small town. We saw the rep and heard her calling the dif groups for counseling in the SSL. At Chi - about midnight - we ate at McDonalds as they were the only place open in the station and the Amtrak office was crowded with passengers with no connection and no where to go. We did get a free meal on board the EB with pot luck service as we all missed dinner. Very nice of them.

We took the Metra up to a hotel where we had missed a pre wedding party but did make the ceremony the next day before getting on the LSL to come home. That trip was the one that convinced us that train travel was for retired people with no commitments on either end of the track.

So if we were scheduled to make the LSL limited that night, we would be put up in a hotel at Amtrak's expense?


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## Ryan

Yep.


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## montana mike

The westbound EB now well over 6 hours behind schedule--looks to be an almost sure bet to turn in SPK now.

:-(((


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## hankster211

montana mike said:


> The westbound EB now well over 6 hours behind schedule--looks to be an almost sure bet to turn in SPK now.:-(((


Riding the EB next week. What exactly does "turn in SPK" involve?


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## amamba

berkyo said:


> We took the EB from Minot ND in may last year and were 9 hours late to Chi.. Might be the train you were on Amamba.


Nope. Mine was 30 hours late due to a freight derailment just East of Glasgow, MT. I posted extensively about it at the time - some folks were kind enough to talk me through my anxiety about making the LSL the next day. I had booked an overnight on CHI - I was on two, two zone AGR awards - but sadly I missed out on my entire CHI day. My husband had never been to Chicago and sadly all he saw of the city was the Metropolitan Lounge.


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## Ryan

hankster211 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The westbound EB now well over 6 hours behind schedule--looks to be an almost sure bet to turn in SPK now.
> 
> :-(((
> 
> 
> 
> Riding the EB next week. What exactly does "turn in SPK" involve?
Click to expand...

Pretty much what it says - if the train is late enough that it would delay the next day's trip, they turn the train around in Spokane. Folks headed west of there get bussed. Folks starting their eastward journey get bussed (on time, so that the train can leave Spokane as close to one time as possible).


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## montana mike

And 6 hours is usually long enough (since the EB is normally only in SEA around 6 hours and they need all of that time to prepare the train for the return trip) to cause them to stop the train in Spokane


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## tomfuller

Train #7 arrived in SEA 25 minutes EARLY yesterday. Today it arrived 44 minutes late.

When in the last week has this train been 6 or more hours late?


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## Ryan

The one headed your way will be.


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## montana mike

And the last time I took the EB to CHI back in May--It turned in SPK because it was 7+ hours late.

:-((


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## anir dendroica

montana mike said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a soft track issue but a construction one. BNSF is bringing the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions up to modern mainline standards to handle oil traffic. New track after tie replacement is restricted to 20-25 mph for a few days until things get settled and maintains a lesser speed restriction for some time after that. Easy to lose a couple of hours plugging along at 25 mph, especially when you have to wait for freights going the same speed.
> Overall the Fargo-Minot improvements should be good for the EB in the longer term. In the very near term that means long construction delays this summer. In the 1-10 year term it means that any gains due to higher track speed could well be offset by delays meeting crude oil trains. In the very long term it means excess capacity once Bakken oil output begins to decline.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it is going to be a long and slow summer for the Hi-Line!
> 
> Since Bakken is supposed to last for 100-150 years I doubt this will help any of us!! :mellow: I spoke with a friend who works for BNSF and the railroad is anticipating greatly increased tanker train traffic for way more than 5 years-even if the EPA ever approves the pipeline. He says there is so much oil and natural gas being produced or planned for production that both will be needed for decades.
> 
> Note on today's Eastbound EB plugging along in Wisconsin--now running about 5 hours late--I think we may have jinxed the train.
Click to expand...

There's a lot of hyperbole and hoopla surrounding estimates of future oil production in the Bakken right now because, if you haven't noticed yet, shale oil is today's speculative bubble about to pop and there is a need to convince investors that the future is still bright.

The thing to know about shale oil is that well production declines 30-40% per year. Thus at some point (which is soon approaching) we will be drilling more wells but producing less oil. The most realistic forecasts I have seen project a peak in Bakken production in the next few years followed by a few years of steady production and a long, slow decline.


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## montana mike

I don't know who gave you that info. A very close friend of ours is a principle in one of the firms in the Bakken play and their estimates are for increasing production in ND and MT for at least 20-30 years, with full production lasting two to three times that long. This is the largest energy field outside of TX in US history. It will be around for generations. This guy has been in the business his entire life and I believe his estimates to be quite accurate. He is not one to speak in hyperboles.


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## NW cannonball

Now #8(18) looks to be 3 hours late out of Wenatchee.


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## montana mike

It appears 7 was turned in SPK as expected, since it was over 7 hours late. A terrible day for all of the EBs yesterday. Arrival time in Chicago was over 3 hours late as well. This AM every EB is waaay behind schedule. Darn


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## nybatt

I happened to be part of the 4hr delay, Monday, on #7 out of CHI. It was extremely frustrating to say the least. My biggest issue was the lack of Amtrak organization during the wait in the coach lounge at the station. The initial PA announcement relayed a "30 minute" delay... followed 35 minutes later with a "60 minute" delay. When we reached an hour the word was "we don't have a time for your departure".

Needless to say, many were frazzled.

I travel cross-country each summer on Amtrak, and honestly understand these issues occur. As I stated before my issue was that no Amtrak 'official' came out to address the mob scene with updates/instructions. While we waited multiple Hiawatha and Milwaukee trains boarded at our gate; as you can imagine it was pretty crowded.

Fortunately my trip on the EB was a 'short' one, traveling only to Wis. Dells.

We are returning on tomorrow's (6/18 origin) EB to Chicago. The train is already over 2.5 hours late.

As a train lover I am keeping my chin up and smiling, as for the wife..........

Thanks for reading!


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## montana mike

I am trying to figure out the common thread(s) why the Empire Builder struggles so much in the summer. So far it just doesn't appear to be one thing. Lots of "one time" events, coupled with the extra number of people (although I don't see more boardings along the way as causing 4-7 hour delays). Perhaps BNSF does indeed kick things up a few notches on the freight numbers in the summer, perhaps the construction (which is necessary of course) just overwhelms a delicately balanced and now increasingly full line?

The bottom line is sadly I don't see things getting any better. Perhaps Amtrak will need to set up the additional consist in SEA if the delays become more than the "infrequent" terminations in SPK? Perhaps they need to tinker with the schedule to reflect reality? Right now it looks like just one or two turnarounds in SPK a month, but at what point do you say, OK, the bustitutions from SEA are becoming more frequent and the delays into CHI are now causing folks to routinely miss connections, we need to address this issue?


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## yarrow

montana mike said:


> The bottom line is sadly I don't see things getting any better. Perhaps Amtrak will need to set up the additional consist in SEA if the delays become more than the "infrequent" terminations in SPK? Perhaps they need to tinker with the schedule to reflect reality? Right now it looks like just one or two turnarounds in SPK a month, but at what point do you say, OK, the bustitutions from SEA are becoming more frequent and the delays into CHI are now causing folks to routinely miss connections, we need to address this issue?


i don't know the solution and neither does amtrak seem to. unfortunately, it's their job to figure it out. last summer they appeared to fiddle while rome burned (they did stick and extra consist in sea/pdx at the tail end of things, iirc).


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## crescent2

montana mike said:


> It appears 7 was turned in SPK as expected, since it was over 7 hours late. A terrible day for all of the EBs yesterday. Arrival time in Chicago was over 3 hours late as well. This AM every EB is waaay behind schedule. Darn


Double darn.


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## laxster

How will these delays affect connections to the Wolverine?

I am taking the EB Empire Builder to Chicago in August, and then the Wolverine to Dearborn. There is *supposed* to be a 2 hour layover if the train arrives on time, but I'm concerned that it won't be. Last time I took this trip, a few of us were running at top speed through the station to catch the Wolverine.

I'm not opposed to spending an extra night in Chicago.

Is the freight traffic between MSP and CHI still crazy busy in both directions?


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## NW cannonball

montana mike said:


> I am trying to figure out the common thread(s) why the Empire Builder struggles so much in the summer. So far it just doesn't appear to be one thing. Lots of "one time" events, coupled with the extra number of people (although I don't see more boardings along the way as causing 4-7 hour delays). Perhaps BNSF does indeed kick things up a few notches on the freight numbers in the summer, perhaps the construction (which is necessary of course) just overwhelms a delicately balanced and now increasingly full line? The bottom line is sadly I don't see things getting any better. Perhaps Amtrak will need to set up the additional consist in SEA if the delays become more than the "infrequent" terminations in SPK? Perhaps they need to tinker with the schedule to reflect reality? Right now it looks like just one or two turnarounds in SPK a month, but at what point do you say, OK, the bustitutions from SEA are becoming more frequent and the delays into CHI are now causing folks to routinely miss connections, we need to address this issue?


Like you say - the summertime delays on the EB seem to be so many various things - from the bad-ordered diner that snowballed into an early turn at SPK - to expected trackwork - to -- whatever.

Track repair and improvement is expected, just like on highways -- but the EB seems to catch every problem summertimes. No one explanation. Frustrating.


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## Ryan

laxster said:


> How will these delays affect connections to the Wolverine?
> I am taking the EB Empire Builder to Chicago in August, and then the Wolverine to Dearborn. There is *supposed* to be a 2 hour layover if the train arrives on time, but I'm concerned that it won't be. Last time I took this trip, a few of us were running at top speed through the station to catch the Wolverine.
> 
> I'm not opposed to spending an extra night in Chicago.
> 
> Is the freight traffic between MSP and CHI still crazy busy in both directions?


Here's how the arrival times have fared over the last 3 summers:







August looks pretty rough. If you're OK with it, you may be spending the night in CHI on Amtrak's dime.


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## tonys96

We are traveling eastbound on the EB this August. Fortunately, we are disembarking @ MSP, so as long as we are less than 4/5 hours late, we will still be OK !


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## crescent2

Ryan's graph is mislabeled.

The red line is crescent2's EKG when looking at EB's on-time performance.

The blue line is RailFreak's EKG

The green line is laxter's EKG.

Montana Mike's is not shown.


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## Rail Freak

crescent2 said:


> Ryan's graph is mislabeled.The red line is crescent2's EKG when looking at EB's on-time performance.
> 
> The blue line is RailFreak's EKG
> 
> The green line is laxter's EKG.
> 
> Montana Mike's is not shown.


:giggle:  :blink: :lol:


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## PaulM

laxster said:


> How will these delays affect connections to the Wolverine?
> ...
> 
> I'm not opposed to spending an extra night in Chicago.


Being bussed or vanned is more likely.


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## montana mike

crescent2 said:


> Ryan's graph is mislabeled.The red line is crescent2's EKG when looking at EB's on-time performance.
> 
> The blue line is RailFreak's EKG
> 
> The green line is laxter's EKG.
> 
> Montana Mike's is not shown.


Always good to have a great sense of humor in such a situation!!! Bravo!


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## anir dendroica

I don't think freight volumes increase much if at all during the summer months. The only real factors are track construction and increased passenger loading, the latter having a somewhat smaller effect, though more passengers means more frequent medical emergencies, police interventions, etc. and longer station dwell times.

Track construction has some knock-on effects though:

1. Freights are also subject to construction slow orders, effectively decreasing line capacity and increasing time spent in sidings or following freights.

2. Slow orders eat up the schedule padding, so that delays due to other reasons (e.g. bad-ordered cars) cannot be made up en route.

3. Amtrak runs ~9-10 hour crew districts, meaning that if a train is delayed more than 2-3 hours in one district a new crew must be supplied as crews cannot legally work more than 12 hours per shift. Furthermore crews must be given 8 hours rest before the next shift, so occasionally when #8 is delayed multiple hours the next day's #7 must wait at a crew change point until the crew has had their 8 hours of legal rest.


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## anir dendroica

montana mike said:


> I don't know who gave you that info. A very close friend of ours is a principle in one of the firms in the Bakken play and their estimates are for increasing production in ND and MT for at least 20-30 years, with full production lasting two to three times that long. This is the largest energy field outside of TX in US history. It will be around for generations. This guy has been in the business his entire life and I believe his estimates to be quite accurate. He is not one to speak in hyperboles.


I've seen it said many places. Here is one report that I trust, giving several scenarios all of which involve peak production in the next few years:

http://oilandgas-investments.com/2012/oil-and-gas-financial/bakken-oil-production/


----------



## montana mike

anir dendroica said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know who gave you that info. A very close friend of ours is a principle in one of the firms in the Bakken play and their estimates are for increasing production in ND and MT for at least 20-30 years, with full production lasting two to three times that long. This is the largest energy field outside of TX in US history. It will be around for generations. This guy has been in the business his entire life and I believe his estimates to be quite accurate. He is not one to speak in hyperboles.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen it said many places. Here is one report that I trust, giving several scenarios all of which involve peak production in the next few years:
> 
> http://oilandgas-investments.com/2012/oil-and-gas-financial/bakken-oil-production/
Click to expand...

Not sure how they come up with the info at all. The US Geological Survey's latest data (May 2013) doesn't even agree with that info. Production won't peak for at least another 20 years. The number of wells to be drilled in BOTH ND and MT will increase by at least a factor of ten over the next 5-7 years, which means the earliest you could have "peak" production would be 10 years, but then that doesn't take into account additional wells after that time frame at all. This field will be producing enormous amounts (the USGS says that by 2020 this field will supply 10% of ALL domestic production) of energy products for at least the next three generations. Even the USGS now admits there could be close to 1 TRILLION barrels of oil/NG equivalent that is recoverable in today's technology between the Canadian side and ND and MT. That will take many, many decades to remove.


----------



## Guest

Ryan said:


> August looks pretty rough. If you're OK with it, you may be spending the night in CHI on Amtrak's dime.


Wow - those on-time rates look absolutely pathetic in the summer. I've encountered several sold-out trains to CHI from MSP. Not enough track capacity plus passenger demand... hopefully someone will do something to upgrade this rail line! Thankfully, I'm not pressed for time on this trip and would welcome extra time to explore some Chicago sights.

Where does Amtrak put people up at? Somewhere downtown, I hope?


----------



## montana mike

Todays arrival will likely be over 3 hours late and tomorrow's is already approaching the 3 hour mark and this train hasn't run the "gauntlet" yet in ND. Bummer.

The one time they put me up in CHI it was a decent property downtown, although it is a function of what is available. If a major convention is in town you could end up in the "burbs".

Update: 7(19) lost 2 hours around MKE today as well. :-(


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

nybatt said:


> I happened to be part of the 4hr delay, Monday, on #7 out of CHI. It was extremely frustrating to say the least. My biggest issue was the lack of Amtrak organization during the wait in the coach lounge at the station. The initial PA announcement relayed a "30 minute" delay... followed 35 minutes later with a "60 minute" delay. When we reached an hour the word was "we don't have a time for your departure".
> Needless to say, many were frazzled.
> 
> I travel cross-country each summer on Amtrak, and honestly understand these issues occur. As I stated before my issue was that no Amtrak 'official' came out to address the mob scene with updates/instructions. While we waited multiple Hiawatha and Milwaukee trains boarded at our gate; as you can imagine it was pretty crowded.
> 
> Fortunately my trip on the EB was a 'short' one, traveling only to Wis. Dells.
> 
> We are returning on tomorrow's (6/18 origin) EB to Chicago. The train is already over 2.5 hours late.
> 
> As a train lover I am keeping my chin up and smiling, as for the wife..........
> 
> Thanks for reading!


I was also on #7 Monday. Lucky you--you got off at Wisconsin Dells. Oddly, there seemed to be little freight interference. Much track work, though, which extended the four hour delay upon departure (three in the station, one on the train) to the point where we had to be bused from Spokane onward this morning. And how I wish they would make a Metra commuter train wait for five frickin' minutes to allow a four-hour late trans-continental train priority. That delay cost us another 10 or so minutes--it all adds up. I was SO looking forward to traveling through Eastern Washington by train in the daylight. Not to be. I have to give a shout out to SRA King Louie. I hope I won't get him in any trouble, but I think management knows him well enough to keep him on a "loose leash" and lets him do his thing. You are right in that no one "official" from Amtrak let us know during those long three hours' wait. But for first class pax in the Metropolitan Lounge, at least King Louie came by himself to let us know that not only the original diner went bad, but the replacement also was no good. Third time the charm, but by then the run was doomed. I didn't get breakfast this morning in the diner either--they did gave me a to-go meal, which I appreciated, as the buses were already boarding. Of course, we then waited on the buses for over a half hour for the checked luggage to arrive. Total disaster.


----------



## crescent2

"Don't worry." ???? :huh: :giggle:


----------



## montana mike

Both 7 in ND and 8 in MN are now both over 5 hours behind schedule--after a brutally slow run thru ND!!!

:-(

I believe Amtrak is losing control of the schedule for this train--the big delays into CHI (3-6 hour delays now common) and it looks like another possible turn at SPK again for the west bound EB tonight, will just make matters worse for BOTH passengers and crew.


----------



## yarrow

now, 6.5 hours late out of malta in eastern, mt. they would have to turn the eb in spk or have a late departure from sea/pdx tomorrow


----------



## montana mike

Yup--looks like they pulled the plug on #7 this evening and now have posted the infamous service disruption and will turn the sucker around in SPK AGAIN--second time this week. If AMTRAK is going to have any chance of originating trains on a regular basis in SEA this summer they may very well have to station that second set in SEA AGAIN. Bummer for all of those thousands of passengers who get those 7 hour bus trips between SEA, PDX and SPK.

:-((


----------



## Texan Eagle

montana mike said:


> Yup--looks like they pulled the plug on #7 this evening and now have posted the infamous service disruption and will turn the sucker around in SPK AGAIN--second time this week. If AMTRAK is going to have any chance of originating trains on a regular basis in SEA this summer they may very well have to station that second set in SEA AGAIN. Bummer for all of those thousands of passengers who get those 7 hour bus trips between SEA, PDX and SPK.:-((


I am going with friends on this trip in two weeks. For all of us desk-job people, getting time off to make this trip has been "on bucket list since several years" thing, and this situation does not look very optimistic. I have to connect to Starlight from PDX, no idea what will happen to that if delays continue like this. What do they do if the bustitution is not going to make it in time to PDX for southbound Starlight's departure? Do they divert the bus to meet the train somewhere further down the line?

Also, I am funding this trip from carefully collected AGR points. In case we hit a bustitution/missed connection, what kind of compensation can I expect? Will it be in terms of miles or travel voucher worth X dollars?


----------



## AlanB

montana mike said:


> Yup--looks like they pulled the plug on #7 this evening and now have posted the infamous service disruption and will turn the sucker around in SPK AGAIN--second time this week. If AMTRAK is going to have any chance of originating trains on a regular basis in SEA this summer they may very well have to station that second set in SEA AGAIN.


I'm not sure that Amtrak has enough equipment to do that. When they did it last year it was very late in the summer when they were coming down off the peak.



Texan Eagle said:


> Also, I am funding this trip from carefully collected AGR points. In case we hit a bustitution/missed connection, what kind of compensation can I expect? Will it be in terms of miles or travel voucher worth X dollars?


You'll get a voucher good towards travel in the coming year. No idea just how much, especially since any amount would be affected by making/not making the CS connection properly.


----------



## montana mike

According to my BNSF friend here in MT, there will be issues in at least two places much of the summer--arrgh. The Devil's lake thru Fargo area and then in part of Eastern MT. He said BNSF has let AMTRAK now they can expect daily delays thru these areas up to 2-3 hours depending on the work schedules, with attendant slow orders to continue into early fall, PLUS he fully expects the usual heat related slow orders to tack on another 1-2 hours of delays in the July-August timeframe thru MT and ND (remember BNSF has lowered the threshold for heat related slow orders to 85 degrees now). If his estimates are reasonably accurate, and I would have no reason to believe they would not be, this means routine delays on at least some EBs of 3-5 hours or more--rats. This past week's performance would appear to bear out his estimates, with two west bound EBs turned in SPK because they were already over 6 hours late and arrival times in CHI on most east bound EBs of 3-5 hours behind schedule.

I guess there is nothing that AMTRAK can do about this, but it would appear the EBs are going to be waaaay off the mark as far as schedule a good part of the time until this activity is complete, with lots and lots of people getting extra bus rides and missing their connections, etc.....

Bummer.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> According to my BNSF friend here in MT, there will be issues in at least two places much of the summer--arrgh. The Devil's lake thru Fargo area and then in part of Eastern MT. He said BNSF has let AMTRAK now they can expect daily delays thru these areas up to 2-3 hours depending on the work schedules, with attendant slow orders to continue into early fall, PLUS he fully expects the usual heat related slow orders to tack on another 1-2 hours of delays in the July-August timeframe thru MT and ND (remember BNSF has lowered the threshold for heat related slow orders to 85 degrees now). If his estimates are reasonably accurate, and I would have no reason to believe they would not be, this means routine delays on at least some EBs of 3-5 hours or more--rats. This past week's performance would appear to bear out his estimates, with two west bound EBs turned in SPK because they were already over 6 hours late and arrival times in CHI on most east bound EBs of 3-5 hours behind schedule.I guess there is nothing that AMTRAK can do about this, but it would appear the EBs are going to be waaaay off the mark as far as schedule a good part of the time until this activity is complete, with lots and lots of people getting extra bus rides and missing their connections, etc.....
> 
> Bummer.


are the track work delays and slow orders mon-fri or 7 days a week? are bnsf freights also delayed several hours? will amtrak issue a service alert, as i believe they did at some point last summer, that the eb will be routinely delayed? will they again, as i believe they did last year, no longer guarantee the eb-cl connection?


----------



## CHamilton

I'm on 8 today. We're at WFH now, less than an hour late. But we met 7 just west of Libby at 6 am, so it's several hours behind schedule.


----------



## montana mike

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to my BNSF friend here in MT, there will be issues in at least two places much of the summer--arrgh. The Devil's lake thru Fargo area and then in part of Eastern MT. He said BNSF has let AMTRAK now they can expect daily delays thru these areas up to 2-3 hours depending on the work schedules, with attendant slow orders to continue into early fall, PLUS he fully expects the usual heat related slow orders to tack on another 1-2 hours of delays in the July-August timeframe thru MT and ND (remember BNSF has lowered the threshold for heat related slow orders to 85 degrees now). If his estimates are reasonably accurate, and I would have no reason to believe they would not be, this means routine delays on at least some EBs of 3-5 hours or more--rats. This past week's performance would appear to bear out his estimates, with two west bound EBs turned in SPK because they were already over 6 hours late and arrival times in CHI on most east bound EBs of 3-5 hours behind schedule.I guess there is nothing that AMTRAK can do about this, but it would appear the EBs are going to be waaaay off the mark as far as schedule a good part of the time until this activity is complete, with lots and lots of people getting extra bus rides and missing their connections, etc.....
> 
> Bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> are the track work delays and slow orders mon-fri or 7 days a week? are bnsf freights also delayed several hours? will amtrak issue a service alert, as i believe they did at some point last summer, that the eb will be routinely delayed? will they again, as i believe they did last year, no longer guarantee the eb-cl connection?
Click to expand...

My contact at BNSF says the track work has different schedules, with some work seven days a week, others just 5 (although he did say that not much was scheduled for the 4th and 5th of July). Yes, he said this is slowing some of the BNSF freight traffic as well. He did say that there is a "modest" increase in the traffic moving to and from ND to the east right now as more and more tanker cars are being delivered to ND. I note that #8 in MN this AM looks to arrive almost 4 hours behind schedule into MSP and #7 in ND did indeed lose the amount of time he said they would lose as they went thru MN and ND last night (about 2 1/2 hours). It will be interesting to see if 7 loses the additional time in MT as well, since the last two did.

The last time I was on the AMTRAK web site not a peep out of them with regard to possible EB delays this summer. My BNSF guy reminded me again that BNSF plans on being "conservative" when it comes to declaring heat slow orders this summer--translated--they will pull the trigger when the temps go above 85 degrees, slowing things down from 79 mph to around 60 mph as long as the temps remain high (doing the math-that means if the EB has to slow down for three hours of travel this would cost them about an additional hour in delay). :-( How do the trains in the South and Southwest deal with the heat--they have temps above that threshold a good part of the year?


----------



## montana mike

CHamilton said:


> I'm on 8 today. We're at WFH now, less than an hour late. But we met 7 just west of Libby at 6 am, so it's several hours behind schedule.


That means the EB was 7 hours behind--since the "normal" time for Libby is 10:59 PM the night before.

:-(


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

AlanB said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I am funding this trip from carefully collected AGR points. In case we hit a bustitution/missed connection, what kind of compensation can I expect? Will it be in terms of miles or travel voucher worth X dollars?
> 
> 
> 
> You'll get a voucher good towards travel in the coming year. No idea just how much, especially since any amount would be affected by making/not making the CS connection properly.
Click to expand...

I was traveling on points. I called customer relations and was given a voucher--good for one year--in the hundreds of dollars. Normally I feel for AMTRAK, being squeezed almost to the bone by Congress and at the mercy of the freight roads, but this was AMTRAK's fault, with two bad dining cars which caused us to leave CHI four hours late. So I don't feel bad about collecting the voucher--this time.


----------



## CHamilton

EB 8 just left East Glacier only half an hour late.


----------



## montana mike

CHamilton said:


> EB 8 just left East Glacier only half an hour late.


Yea. Now the fun begins--keep us posted! I guess the Saturday AM #8 will be on time as it comes into MT, since it will get a head start in SPK as well. Looks like the EB that is in MSP will chug into CHI about 4 hours behind schedule if things go reasonably well thru WI (AMTRAK shows they will lose another 30 minutes or so in MSP for some reason).

Update: #8 stayed in MSP a loooooong time, so long they lost almost another hour, now around 4 1/2 hours behind schedule. Bummer.


----------



## yarrow

when the eb is turned in spokane how is it re-provisioned? since most meals are pre-made and presumably not locally available do they just truck or fly the provisions in from sea/pdx?


----------



## amamba

I have been pretty open with my voucher amount. I received $1,000 for my 30 hour delay on last year's EB. Both my husband and I were in a bedroom from SEA - CHI and then had a second award from CHI - WFD (that is in CT), also in a bedroom. Honestly, I was kind of more upset about the shitty service in the diner in the LSL than a delay that was beyond amtrak's control. So the $1,000 was for the entire trip, which was two, two zone bedrolom awards.


----------



## Rail Freak

amamba said:


> I have been pretty open with my voucher amount. I received $1,000 for my 30 hour delay on last year's EB. Both my husband and I were in a bedroom from SEA - CHI and then had a second award from CHI - WFD (that is in CT), also in a bedroom. Honestly, I was kind of more upset about the shitty service in the diner in the LSL than a delay that was beyond amtrak's control. So the $1,000 was for the entire trip, which was two, two zone bedrolom awards.


WOW! Someone was feeling generous!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

amamba said:


> I have been pretty open with my voucher amount. I received $1,000 for my 30 hour delay on last year's EB. Both my husband and I were in a bedroom from SEA - CHI and then had a second award from CHI - WFD (that is in CT), also in a bedroom. Honestly, I was kind of more upset about the shitty service in the diner in the LSL than a delay that was beyond amtrak's control. So the $1,000 was for the entire trip, which was two, two zone bedrolom awards.


But then ya'll Deserved the Voucher,that was an Expensive Trip, it Wasn't Free or Getting Over, THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH!!


----------



## montana mike

Well, they should have been--30 hours!!! Ouch.

:-(


----------



## Rail Freak

montana mike said:


> Well, they should have been--30 hours!!! Ouch. :-(


Yeah, I kinda missed that!


----------



## anir dendroica

> How do the trains in the South and Southwest deal with the heat--they have temps above that threshold a good part of the year?


The problem is not so much heat as the range of temperatures the track must experience. In the desert southwest that range might be 30-120 degrees, a range of 90 degrees. In Montana that range is -40 to 100 degrees, a range of 140 degrees.

Rails are laid in tension, but since extreme tension in cold weather causes pull-aparts, Montana rails must have less tension at, say, 70 degrees than Arizona rails. This in turn means Montana rails will experience much more compression at 90 degrees, making them vulnerable to heat kinks. To put the same amount of stress on Arizona rails the temperature would have to be 130 or so, which thankfully never happens.


----------



## CHamilton

EB 8 just left Havre on time. Stay tuned.


----------



## Rail Freak

GO "8" GO !!!! :lol:


----------



## montana mike

At this rate it might catch up to the one ahead of it, which keeps losing more time!!! Just kidding, I hope not!!


----------



## montana mike

anir dendroica said:


> How do the trains in the South and Southwest deal with the heat--they have temps above that threshold a good part of the year?
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not so much heat as the range of temperatures the track must experience. In the desert southwest that range might be 30-120 degrees, a range of 90 degrees. In Montana that range is -40 to 100 degrees, a range of 140 degrees.
> 
> Rails are laid in tension, but since extreme tension in cold weather causes pull-aparts, Montana rails must have less tension at, say, 70 degrees than Arizona rails. This in turn means Montana rails will experience much more compression at 90 degrees, making them vulnerable to heat kinks. To put the same amount of stress on Arizona rails the temperature would have to be 130 or so, which thankfully never happens.
Click to expand...

Much appreciated on the explanation. I always wondered why in temps that I considered delightfully pleasant ie. mid 80's, BNSF is telling it's engineers to slooooow down. Now I know the rest of the story


----------



## CHamilton

>EB 8 just left Havre on time. Stay tuned.

Ditto Malta.


----------



## fairviewroad

Bearing in mind that yesterday's #8 also left Malta on time, but was 4 1/2 hours late by the time it got to MSP.


----------



## CHamilton

We just lost half an hour at West Tampico, Montana, waiting for the WB 7 and two freights.


----------



## CHamilton

8 left Glasgow 40 minutes late.


----------



## montana mike

CHamilton said:


> 8 left Glasgow 40 minutes late.


I see you are now 1 hour and 15 minutes late leaving MT. Just about the amount of time the BNSF guy said you would lose--rats. BTW-the #8 ahead of you looks like it will pull into CHI just under 5 hours late. Let's hope you don't suffer the same delays.


----------



## CHamilton

In Williston now, around 1:30 late.


----------



## montana mike

CHamilton said:


> In Williston now, around 1:30 late.


Today's #8 arrived in CHI 4 1/2 hours late. Let's hope you don't suffer the same fate


----------



## CHamilton

Just left Stanley about 1:25 down. Good night, all.


----------



## CHamilton

One hour late at Staples MN on 8.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Was wondering if you were up yet Charlie.


----------



## CHamilton

Correction : two hours. Misread the timetable. What's an hour among friends?


----------



## montana mike

Well you are ahead of yesterday's #8, so let's hope you don't lose any more time


----------



## gmushial

Ryan said:


> Here's what last year's looked like:
> 
> 
> The heavy line is a 10 day moving average that helps smooth the data out a little bit. The raw data is the fine line in the background.
> 
> I think that the general consensus is that last year was a particularly bad year. I have the data for other years laying around, I need to unpack it and check it out.


Being a data handling type, have to love the graph. But a question: did you have the hand collect the underlying data, or is there a way to automate that? I'd very much like to do the same for the CZ.

Very much thanks for posting the graph/data - hugely useful.


----------



## gmushial

montana mike said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a soft track issue but a construction one. BNSF is bringing the Devils Lake and Hillsboro subdivisions up to modern mainline standards to handle oil traffic. New track after tie replacement is restricted to 20-25 mph for a few days until things get settled and maintains a lesser speed restriction for some time after that. Easy to lose a couple of hours plugging along at 25 mph, especially when you have to wait for freights going the same speed.
> Overall the Fargo-Minot improvements should be good for the EB in the longer term. In the very near term that means long construction delays this summer. In the 1-10 year term it means that any gains due to higher track speed could well be offset by delays meeting crude oil trains. In the very long term it means excess capacity once Bakken oil output begins to decline.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it is going to be a long and slow summer for the Hi-Line!
> 
> Since Bakken is supposed to last for 100-150 years I doubt this will help any of us!! :mellow: I spoke with a friend who works for BNSF and the railroad is anticipating greatly increased tanker train traffic for way more than 5 years-even if the EPA ever approves the pipeline. He says there is so much oil and natural gas being produced or planned for production that both will be needed for decades.
> 
> Note on today's Eastbound EB plugging along in Wisconsin--now running about 5 hours late--I think we may have jinxed the train.
Click to expand...

I wonder when it becomes worthwhile to double track a section, especially if they're looking at that many years of (oil) output?


----------



## gmushial

anir dendroica said:


> How do the trains in the South and Southwest deal with the heat--they have temps above that threshold a good part of the year?
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not so much heat as the range of temperatures the track must experience. In the desert southwest that range might be 30-120 degrees, a range of 90 degrees. In Montana that range is -40 to 100 degrees, a range of 140 degrees.
> 
> Rails are laid in tension, but since extreme tension in cold weather causes pull-aparts, Montana rails must have less tension at, say, 70 degrees than Arizona rails. This in turn means Montana rails will experience much more compression at 90 degrees, making them vulnerable to heat kinks. To put the same amount of stress on Arizona rails the temperature would have to be 130 or so, which thankfully never happens.
Click to expand...

Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?


----------



## CHamilton

I arrived in MSP at 8:45. Will be staying with friends until Monday morning, then on to CHI.


----------



## Ryan

gmushial said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what last year's looked like:
> 
> The heavy line is a 10 day moving average that helps smooth the data out a little bit. The raw data is the fine line in the background.
> 
> I think that the general consensus is that last year was a particularly bad year. I have the data for other years laying around, I need to unpack it and check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Being a data handling type, have to love the graph. But a question: did you have the hand collect the underlying data, or is there a way to automate that? I'd very much like to do the same for the CZ.
> 
> Very much thanks for posting the graph/data - hugely useful.
Click to expand...

The data is pulled from John Bobinyec's website:

http://dixielandsoftware.net/Amtrak/status/StatusPages/index.html

They come in one text file per day - I wrote some Python scripts to turn the individual text files for each day into a CSV file for one train at one particular station that can then be opened in Excel to create graphs. I'm working towards doing the graphing in Python as well, it's still a work in progress.


----------



## montana mike

Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!


----------



## AlanB

gmushial said:


> Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?


Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.


----------



## AlanB

yarrow said:


> when the eb is turned in spokane how is it re-provisioned? since most meals are pre-made and presumably not locally available do they just truck or fly the provisions in from sea/pdx?


I believe that the food is trucked in from the SEA commissary, along with the checked luggage.


----------



## JayPea

AlanB said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> when the eb is turned in spokane how is it re-provisioned? since most meals are pre-made and presumably not locally available do they just truck or fly the provisions in from sea/pdx?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the food is trucked in from the SEA commissary, along with the checked luggage.
Click to expand...


Yarrow: it's Dick's hamburgers for everyone! :lol:

Thursday I morning I depart Spokane for Portland, then up to Seattle via the Cascades. My plan is to head to Powell's Used Bookstore and Jake's Famous Crawfish for lunch. Under normal circumstances I'd have worlds of plenty of time, but if the EB is way late (or worse yet, bustituted! :wacko: ) I won't have time to do that. If it's way late, in fact, I might just cancel the Spokane-Portland EB and Portland-Seattle reservations and just get a Spokane-Seattle reservation. I don't wan't to have to do so, but if I do, I'm guessing the earth's axial tilt proably won't change.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

montana mike said:


> Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!


I'm taking the EB later this week, and I've been trying to fill in a few of the "gaps" in arrival times from Amtrak & the Amtrak Delays site. As of now, there's no data for the westbound EB arriving at any stations in Montana on June 18th or June 20th. I assume these are times when the train was turned in Spokane, so the "service disruption" cancels out the data.

I'm assuming that if the EB was turned in Spokane, it still did make its stops at Whitefish, MT at some point. Does anyone know when the EB actually passed through that area, or how to find out?

I have family picking me up at WFH, and although I've warned them that the EB will probably be at least an hour or two past its scheduled 8:56 pm arrival time, I'd like to know how late it has actually been in order to give them a "worst case scenario."


----------



## gmushial

D.P. Roberts said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm taking the EB later this week, and I've been trying to fill in a few of the "gaps" in arrival times from Amtrak & the Amtrak Delays site. As of now, there's no data for the westbound EB arriving at any stations in Montana on June 18th or June 20th. I assume these are times when the train was turned in Spokane, so the "service disruption" cancels out the data.
> 
> I'm assuming that if the EB was turned in Spokane, it still did make its stops at Whitefish, MT at some point. Does anyone know when the EB actually passed through that area, or how to find out?
> 
> I have family picking me up at WFH, and although I've warned them that the EB will probably be at least an hour or two past its scheduled 8:56 pm arrival time, I'd like to know how late it has actually been in order to give them a "worst case scenario."
Click to expand...

My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV


----------



## gmushial

AlanB said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.
Click to expand...

I suspect nowadays since passenger traffic makes up such a small percentage of what the rails carry, any optimization for being on schedule doesn't/wouldn't make any economic sense... freight I suspect doesn't care if it is a couple hours late and likewise if one can reduce rail/wheel wear that's what's of the greatest importance to the rail companies, ie, it's all dollars and cents. I wonder if there isn't some non-cost prohibitive way to have the best of both worlds, ie, run at full speed independent of temperatures, and likewise keep wear to a minimum?? Many thanks for your insights and reply - very much appreciated.

A related question: when a train has to run at 25mph vs 60mph, I suspect the gallons per mile decreases, but not proportionately, ie, over the same trip, the total fuel burned increases - correct? Any idea what those numbers actually look like? eg, any guesses as to what a CZ burns btwn DEN and CHI, ie, out on the flats (either total fuel, or gallons per mile)? Again, many thanks.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

gmushial said:


> My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV


I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.


----------



## gmushial

D.P. Roberts said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.
Click to expand...

Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.


----------



## EricPT

Anyone have information or informed speculation on when the delays will start to let up. I am on the EB in September and could stand to get in a little late but will be missing important, though not critical, dinner sessions if arrival is more than two hours late. Thanks much


----------



## TraneMan

gmushial said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.
Click to expand...

There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

TraneMan said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.
Click to expand...

I did think that cell phone coverage would be spotty - most national parks have little (if any) service, and most of the stops east of Glacier are extremely small towns, and I can't count on cell coverage being decent there either. I would guess, based on coverage where I live, that you'd probably need to have a town population of 10,000 or so to get good coverage. Using that as a guide, my best guess is that I'll lose a signal somewhere after Havre, Montana - a good 6 hours east of Whitefish. A lot can happen in that amount of time, so it doesn't look like there's much I can do to keep my family in the loop.

I have been trying to impress upon them the magnitude of the potential delays, but not being rail travelers, I don't think they're getting how bad it might get. They're also used to picking people up from the airport, with plenty of indoor waiting spaces and hi-def screens to update you on arrival times.


----------



## gmushial

TraneMan said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.
Click to expand...

My apologies. When I check the Amtrak website, no EB is not listed as having WiFi... but then again neither is the CZ ??? but I know it was there on the CZ in May - 'cause I used it - even though I had to borrow a tablet to do such [if I'd known it was going to be there I would have brought a laptop or tablet like half the other passengers].


----------



## yarrow

EricPT said:


> Anyone have information or informed speculation on when the delays will start to let up. I am on the EB in September and could stand to get in a little late but will be missing important, though not critical, dinner sessions if arrival is more than two hours late. Thanks much


don't know where you are headed but last year, for multiple reasons, the on time performance into chi of the eb didn't get back to normal until, iirc, late september or early october


----------



## montana mike

D.P. Roberts said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.
Click to expand...

There is NO cell service at all moments after the EB leaves East Glacier until you get to West Glacier, about 90 minutes later.


----------



## montana mike

gmushial said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> My approach has been to give them a cell phone call when I'm a couple stations before where I hope to be picked up and let them know how far ahead (if that were to ever happen :unsure: ) or behind schedule I am, and they can then adjust the pickup time from there. YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on attempting to call them, and I told them about the Amtrak app and the phone line for checking train status. However, the stops to the east of Whitefish are all in Glacier National Park & throughout the mountains, so I don't know how strong the cell phone coverage is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Use the WiFi connection on the train and Skype them? At least on the CZ there was WiFi connectivity 99.99% of the route (except in the tunnels). Just a thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There been no WiFi connection along the EB route from our past trip last year and the year before.. I'd for sure try to call before you get near Glacier since cell service is almost non there on our AT&T service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My apologies. When I check the Amtrak website, no EB is not listed as having WiFi... but then again neither is the CZ ??? but I know it was there on the CZ in May - 'cause I used it - even though I had to borrow a tablet to do such [if I'd known it was going to be there I would have brought a laptop or tablet like half the other passengers].
Click to expand...

I take the EB fairly often, last time about 4 weeks ago, and no Wi-Fi on the train. I do use my iPhone and tether it to my computer reasonably effectively, except for when the EWB goes thru the park and much of the eastern half of MT--which has lousy coverage to begin with.


----------



## Linda T

yarrow said:


> EricPT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have information or informed speculation on when the delays will start to let up. I am on the EB in September and could stand to get in a little late but will be missing important, though not critical, dinner sessions if arrival is more than two hours late. Thanks much
> 
> 
> 
> don't know where you are headed but last year, for multiple reasons, the on time performance into chi of the eb didn't get back to normal until, iirc, late september or early october
Click to expand...

I'm hoping it will be reasonably on time by mid September, as that's when I'll be taking the Eastbound EB. Part of the purpose of this trip is to take the EB, though if needs be I can switch and take the Zephyr back as it still has roomettes available. Right now I should have a good shot at making the Cardinal connection EB scheduled arrival 3:55 pm, Cardinal's scheduled departure 5:45 pm. The advantage of the Zephyr is that since I need to drop back down to SAC it adds an extra day of train travel, but it also adds an extra night in a hotel due to the 3 day a week trains on either end of my reservation. It's worth keeping an eye on, but not doing anything yet.

I hoped that I'd get delayed and get two nights in CHI like before, but as others have said, I could lose my roomette if there are no others available. It just bares watching for now.


----------



## montana mike

The main reasons for the delays are the track construction/maintenance, heavier traffic and finally heat. By September the heat should not be an issue, but BNSF's construction plans call for work well into October. Freight traffic is highly variable, but it is increasing on the Hi-Line. Today's EB was "only" 93 minutes late, which would have meant you would have just made the Cardinal connection, BUT that is the best arrival time in days, most of the delays have pushed the arrival times to 3-4 hours late. One can only hope that things are indeed better by September!! Think positive.


----------



## Linda T

montana mike said:


> The main reasons for the delays are the track construction/maintenance, heavier traffic and finally heat. By September the heat should not be an issue, but BNSF's construction plans call for work well into October. Freight traffic is highly variable, but it is increasing on the Hi-Line. Today's EB was "only" 93 minutes late, which would have meant you would have just made the Cardinal connection, BUT that is the best arrival time in days, most of the delays have pushed the arrival times to 3-4 hours late. One can only hope that things are indeed better by September!! Think positive.


Oh I am, but I know to keep an eye on things before the alternatives are filled up.


----------



## George Harris

gmushial said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect nowadays since passenger traffic makes up such a small percentage of what the rails carry, any optimization for being on schedule doesn't/wouldn't make any economic sense... freight I suspect doesn't care if it is a couple hours late and likewise if one can reduce rail/wheel wear that's what's of the greatest importance to the rail companies, ie, it's all dollars and cents. I wonder if there isn't some non-cost prohibitive way to have the best of both worlds, ie, run at full speed independent of temperatures, and likewise keep wear to a minimum?? Many thanks for your insights and reply - very much appreciated.
> 
> A related question: when a train has to run at 25mph vs 60mph, I suspect the gallons per mile decreases, but not proportionately, ie, over the same trip, the total fuel burned increases - correct? Any idea what those numbers actually look like? eg, any guesses as to what a CZ burns btwn DEN and CHI, ie, out on the flats (either total fuel, or gallons per mile)? Again, many thanks.
Click to expand...

First: The standard rail length pre welded rail was 39 feet. About the longest used anywhere with jointed rail was 60 feet. That is pushing the limit of practicality for jointed rail. If you want longer it needs to be restrained. Generally the thought is to lay it on the hot side so that it is in tension in cold weather. However, over time the zero stress temperature tends to creep downward. To stretch it to the point that it is always in tension is regarded as impractical. If not truly so, it sure is close. Good embedment of the ties and good shoulders of ballast are important to high temperature stability. It is there, but it only takes one weak spot to cause the problem. Placing the track on concrete will also help, but that is a really expensive solution to implement on an existing track.

Running at a lower maximum speed reduces fuel consumption for the trip.


----------



## shelzp

D.P. Roberts said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the eastbound EB may "only" be 90-100 minutes late into CHI today--best performance in quite a while. Sadly the westbound EB just leaving ND is now 4 hours late and heading into another slow part of the trip in eastern MT. Will be very close to having to turn this train around in SPK again--which would be the 4th time in a week--unreal!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm taking the EB later this week, and I've been trying to fill in a few of the "gaps" in arrival times from Amtrak & the Amtrak Delays site. As of now, there's no data for the westbound EB arriving at any stations in Montana on June 18th or June 20th. I assume these are times when the train was turned in Spokane, so the "service disruption" cancels out the data.I'm assuming that if the EB was turned in Spokane, it still did make its stops at Whitefish, MT at some point. Does anyone know when the EB actually passed through that area, or how to find out?I have family picking me up at WFH, and although I've warned them that the EB will probably be at least an hour or two past its scheduled 8:56 pm arrival time, I'd like to know how late it has actually been in order to give them a "worst case scenario."
Click to expand...

Give them the amtrak phone number and have them check with 'Julie' so they can see when the ETA is.


----------



## Ryan

gmushial said:


> My apologies. When I check the Amtrak website, no EB is not listed as having WiFi... but then again neither is the CZ ??? but I know it was there on the CZ in May - 'cause I used it - even though I had to borrow a tablet to do such (if I'd known it was going to be there I would have brought a laptop or tablet like half the other passengers).


The CZ doesn't have wifi either. What you saw and used was most likely someone's private wifi hotspot.

I have no idea why the forum software is moving my text inside the quote tags....


----------



## gmushial

Ryan said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies. When I check the Amtrak website, no EB is not listed as having WiFi... but then again neither is the CZ ??? but I know it was there on the CZ in May - 'cause I used it - even though I had to borrow a tablet to do such (if I'd known it was going to be there I would have brought a laptop or tablet like half the other passengers).
> 
> 
> 
> The CZ doesn't have wifi either. What you saw and used was most likely someone's private wifi hotspot.
> 
> I have no idea why the forum software is moving my text inside the quote tags....
Click to expand...

It's moving your text inside "because you're special" ;-)

W/re WiFi - private hotspots all the way across the route? I guess it's possible, but don't think so. Zac - the person that I kept mooching web access from - had a no-name tablet w/o phone capability, only "802" wifi.. and up until lights out the 2nd day (eastern Colorado) I kept bugging him if he was still connected - seems he kept conversations ongoing with a half dozen people all the way from SAC - and his comment was that other than in the tunnels, yes. So... I'm not sure what was happening or how it was working, but it worked for him explicitly, and when I walked through the lounge and observation cars the number of people "browsing" was significant. The other characteristic, which might identify how/where they were connecting is/was: that there was intervening software that would block the downloads of files/music larger than 5-10mb... which I don't think random hotspots would do that consistently. Bottom line: I thought I "knew" how they were getting connected... I guess all I can say now is that a lot of silicon valley types were able to stay connected for a very large portion of the trip.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

The hotspots were on the train. You can buy a MiFi from your wireless carrier and share it with others. Perhaps someone on the train did not have theirs "locked" and your "friend" was mooching off of it.


----------



## gmushial

George Harris said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect nowadays since passenger traffic makes up such a small percentage of what the rails carry, any optimization for being on schedule doesn't/wouldn't make any economic sense... freight I suspect doesn't care if it is a couple hours late and likewise if one can reduce rail/wheel wear that's what's of the greatest importance to the rail companies, ie, it's all dollars and cents. I wonder if there isn't some non-cost prohibitive way to have the best of both worlds, ie, run at full speed independent of temperatures, and likewise keep wear to a minimum?? Many thanks for your insights and reply - very much appreciated.
> 
> A related question: when a train has to run at 25mph vs 60mph, I suspect the gallons per mile decreases, but not proportionately, ie, over the same trip, the total fuel burned increases - correct? Any idea what those numbers actually look like? eg, any guesses as to what a CZ burns btwn DEN and CHI, ie, out on the flats (either total fuel, or gallons per mile)? Again, many thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First: The standard rail length pre welded rail was 39 feet. About the longest used anywhere with jointed rail was 60 feet. That is pushing the limit of practicality for jointed rail. If you want longer it needs to be restrained. Generally the thought is to lay it on the hot side so that it is in tension in cold weather. However, over time the zero stress temperature tends to creep downward. To stretch it to the point that it is always in tension is regarded as impractical. If not truly so, it sure is close. Good embedment of the ties and good shoulders of ballast are important to high temperature stability. It is there, but it only takes one weak spot to cause the problem. Placing the track on concrete will also help, but that is a really expensive solution to implement on an existing track.
> 
> Running at a lower maximum speed reduces fuel consumption for the trip.
Click to expand...

Many thanks for the reply. When you say "placing the track on concrete" do you mean ties, or the whole bedding? The reason I ask is that at several points along the route (CZ) where they were doing track maintenance we saw units/pallets (is there a formal term for collections of ties when they are transported in bundles of 8 x 6?) of concrete ties waiting to be used, still in their bundled form; and in one case where the concrete ties were laid out along the rail bed already spaced 1 per foot and a half or whatever the tie spacing is under the rail - where it looked like they were simply going to be substituted in for the existing wooden ties. [our #6 ended up several hours late - mostly because of rail bed maintenance, and where we got to watch a lot of it in real-time]. ... one of the reason this caught my eye was that vaguely I thought I remembered from the 1950s or 60s that concrete ties had been tried, but were found less durable then wood in that they were fragile and the pounding they received from the passing trains caused them to disintegrate (back to dust, sand and aggregate)... so to see them now I came to the (unsupported) conclusion that somebody had found a more elastic/forgiving form of concrete that wasn't as fragile as from a half a century ago. Coming from the sciences I was intrigued by that evolution (and was curious what the change had been).

From your comment about less fuel while slower - then it sounds like the aero drag for a train is greater than rolling friction - interesting... would have thought otherwise.

yet again - many thanks for your post - greg


----------



## gmushial

AmtrakBlue said:


> The hotspots were on the train. You can buy a MiFi from your wireless carrier and share it with others. Perhaps someone on the train did not have theirs "locked" and your "friend" was mooching off of it.


Seems like most of the train was mooching then - I saw probably 30ish laptops or tablets what were browsing when I walked around. W/re buying WiFi from a wireless carrier - why would one want this capability (not trying to be snarky)? Or is the obvious answer exactly what I saw? The limiting of file sizes - does that make sense in terms of mooching? Or possibly was this somebody intentionally making this available to the rest of the train - somebody with an unlimited data plan? Have you seen this before where WiFi "magically" appears where it isn't advertised as being available? Either way: interesting observation/suggestion... I'm old school, a cell phone occasional user - but not an aficionado by any means.


----------



## yarrow

last summer's eb delays thread only ran to 35 pages. since we are starting early this year i think we can easily beat that


----------



## NW cannonball

gmushial said:


> George Harris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't one compensate for this by using more shorter pieces of rail and more gaps at the end-connects. With quarter-mile rails I can see this clearly would be a problem and a disaster waiting to happen, but 100' or 200' and end gaps one would think one could compensate for such... or is the expansion over that temp range just too much?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, one can do that. And in fact, that's how rails were originally laid in this country; shorter lengths that is. But that increases maintenance costs as hitting those joints wears down both the rails & the wheels much faster, even as it makes that old familiar clickity-clack sound.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I suspect nowadays since passenger traffic makes up such a small percentage of what the rails carry, any optimization for being on schedule doesn't/wouldn't make any economic sense... freight I suspect doesn't care if it is a couple hours late and likewise if one can reduce rail/wheel wear that's what's of the greatest importance to the rail companies, ie, it's all dollars and cents. I wonder if there isn't some non-cost prohibitive way to have the best of both worlds, ie, run at full speed independent of temperatures, and likewise keep wear to a minimum?? Many thanks for your insights and reply - very much appreciated.
> 
> A related question: when a train has to run at 25mph vs 60mph, I suspect the gallons per mile decreases, but not proportionately, ie, over the same trip, the total fuel burned increases - correct? Any idea what those numbers actually look like? eg, any guesses as to what a CZ burns btwn DEN and CHI, ie, out on the flats (either total fuel, or gallons per mile)? Again, many thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First: The standard rail length pre welded rail was 39 feet. About the longest used anywhere with jointed rail was 60 feet. That is pushing the limit of practicality for jointed rail. If you want longer it needs to be restrained. Generally the thought is to lay it on the hot side so that it is in tension in cold weather. However, over time the zero stress temperature tends to creep downward. To stretch it to the point that it is always in tension is regarded as impractical. If not truly so, it sure is close. Good embedment of the ties and good shoulders of ballast are important to high temperature stability. It is there, but it only takes one weak spot to cause the problem. Placing the track on concrete will also help, but that is a really expensive solution to implement on an existing track.
> 
> Running at a lower maximum speed reduces fuel consumption for the trip.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many thanks for the reply. When you say "placing the track on concrete" do you mean ties, or the whole bedding? The reason I ask is that at several points along the route (CZ) where they were doing track maintenance we saw units/pallets (is there a formal term for collections of ties when they are transported in bundles of 8 x 6?) of concrete ties waiting to be used, still in their bundled form; and in one case where the concrete ties were laid out along the rail bed already spaced 1 per foot and a half or whatever the tie spacing is under the rail - where it looked like they were simply going to be substituted in for the existing wooden ties. [our #6 ended up several hours late - mostly because of rail bed maintenance, and where we got to watch a lot of it in real-time]. ... one of the reason this caught my eye was that vaguely I thought I remembered from the 1950s or 60s that concrete ties had been tried, but were found less durable then wood in that they were fragile and the pounding they received from the passing trains caused them to disintegrate (back to dust, sand and aggregate)... so to see them now I came to the (unsupported) conclusion that somebody had found a more elastic/forgiving form of concrete that wasn't as fragile as from a half a century ago. Coming from the sciences I was intrigued by that evolution (and was curious what the change had been).
> 
> From your comment about less fuel while slower - then it sounds like the aero drag for a train is greater than rolling friction - interesting... would have thought otherwise.
> 
> yet again - many thanks for your post - greg
Click to expand...

Rolling friction steel wheels on steel rails is very small. (why they have to set handbrakes, why there are derails at the end of parking tracks) Aero friction goes up (roughly) with speed squared (depending on aerodynamic design of the whole trainset) - freight trains don't (and can't, with current designs) worry the aero. Shinkansen and TGV do.

The big cost for slower freight trains is having to hire more crew and buy more engines to get the load to where it's needed. Saw an estimate about 1-2 decades back that if the UP lost 1 mph off their average freight speed (was it about 25 mph? - including time in sidings and yards) , they'd have to buy several hundred engines and hire a few hundred more crews. And so on for each 1 mph loss, or gain. And every time a freight has to get up to speed after being stopped in a siding, that burns *mucho* fuel.

The economics is not related to speed only.

About continuous welded rail -- it's welded continuous for as many miles as possible - there are breaks at turnout switches, drawbridges - whatever. And every break is a maintenance problem.

George knows much more about that than I do.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

Regarding tablets, etc browsing on the train -- they may not have been connected to wifi. I have a wifi capable tablet e-reader and use it all the time I am on the train to read books I have already stored on my tablet or even movies. So, I am assuming that most of those you saw browsing could have not been connected to wifi but browsing info or data already stored on their devices. This would also include games, etc. I recently got an Iphone 5 and will use it sparingly as a hot spot when traveling this summer on Amtrak; however, it will be a locked signal and require a password on any device seeking to connect to it. I don't know about the person you observed but I trust most who were actually connected to internet had a phone hot spot or were simply browsing data already stored on their device.


----------



## montana mike

#7 and #27 will likely arrive today in SEA and PDX respectively just under 4 hours late. What are the odds that these two trains will depart on time on their eastbound journey today? Can AMTRAK turn both of these segments around in 2 hours? If their departure is delayed, this train could end up like last week , ridiculously late (6+ hours) by the time they arrived in CHI town.


----------



## JayPea

montana mike said:


> #7 and #27 will likely arrive today in SEA and PDX respectively just under 4 hours late. What are the odds that these two trains will depart on time on their eastbound journey today? Can AMTRAK turn both of these segments around in 2 hours? If their departure is delayed, this train could end up like last week , ridiculously late (6+ hours) by the time they arrived in CHI town.


It looks as though 28 got off on time, but 8 was delayed. There is padding in the schedule between Seattle and Spokane and the dwell time in Spokane is lengthy so 8 might be all right anyway.


----------



## Jacob Goes By Jack

To change the subject a bit - I wonder why Amtrak doesn't just change the Empire Builder's official timetable this summer to reflect the track work and increased traffic? After all, these aren't surprises that come out of nowhere... wouldn't they rather have, say, a 49 hour trip that usually arrives on time, rather than a 46 hour trip that's always 3 hours late? They can always change the timetable back to the old one in the autumn... so why don't they do it this way?


----------



## JayPea

Looks like 8 out of Seattle started off 1 hr and 24 minutes late. Not a good start.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

7/27 is still going through Montana only 1 hour late tonight.

8/28 is going through North Dakota under an hour late.

That's a good sign, right??????


----------



## gmushial

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Regarding tablets, etc browsing on the train -- they may not have been connected to wifi. I have a wifi capable tablet e-reader and use it all the time I am on the train to read books I have already stored on my tablet or even movies. So, I am assuming that most of those you saw browsing could have not been connected to wifi but browsing info or data already stored on their devices. This would also include games, etc. I recently got an Iphone 5 and will use it sparingly as a hot spot when traveling this summer on Amtrak; however, it will be a locked signal and require a password on any device seeking to connect to it. I don't know about the person you observed but I trust most who were actually connected to internet had a phone hot spot or were simply browsing data already stored on their device.


Absolutely have agree: some could have been accessing preloaded material... but the Google screens, the Facebook screens and Yahoo IM screens - pretty sure they were connected. But will bring a tablet next time and see what happens... watch there be no connectivity ;-( ... but given that at least 30% of the people on the train had some type of smart device - either they were going to be disappointed, or they had been there before and had had them work... as they say: we shall see in the fullness of time


----------



## AlanB

Jacob Goes By Jack said:


> To change the subject a bit - I wonder why Amtrak doesn't just change the Empire Builder's official timetable this summer to reflect the track work and increased traffic? After all, these aren't surprises that come out of nowhere... wouldn't they rather have, say, a 49 hour trip that usually arrives on time, rather than a 46 hour trip that's always 3 hours late? They can always change the timetable back to the old one in the autumn... so why don't they do it this way?


Because changing the schedule isn't a simple matter. One must renegotiate a new schedule with 3 different RR's in the EB's case. And it's tough to get a new schedule from the RR's. Even harder to get them to reduce time once they've granted a longer schedule.

Furthermore, changing the schedule breaks the connections with several trains. That means that Amtrak can't even sell through tickets, to say the Cardinal and quite possibly even the Capitol Limited; as well as a few state sponsored trains out of CHI.


----------



## gmushial

AlanB said:


> Jacob Goes By Jack said:
> 
> 
> 
> To change the subject a bit - I wonder why Amtrak doesn't just change the Empire Builder's official timetable this summer to reflect the track work and increased traffic? After all, these aren't surprises that come out of nowhere... wouldn't they rather have, say, a 49 hour trip that usually arrives on time, rather than a 46 hour trip that's always 3 hours late? They can always change the timetable back to the old one in the autumn... so why don't they do it this way?
> 
> 
> 
> Because changing the schedule isn't a simple matter. One must renegotiate a new schedule with 3 different RR's in the EB's case. And it's tough to get a new schedule from the RR's. Even harder to get them to reduce time once they've granted a longer schedule.
> 
> Furthermore, changing the schedule breaks the connections with several trains. That means that Amtrak can't even sell through tickets, to say the Cardinal and quite possibly even the Capitol Limited; as well as a few state sponsored trains out of CHI.
Click to expand...

Would this really involve negotiating new schedules, or merely accepting reality? The three RRs can't be oblivious to such... or can they? Isn't one of the major stumbling blocks sidings and single track conflicts? Wouldn't it be easier and involve less juggling in real-time to have a schedule that is possible, than having one that doesn't reflect reality and being forced into juggling trains, sidings on a daily basis?


----------



## crescent2

I think changing the TT to show longer times would bind the train to those longer times. The train can't leave most stations before the time stated in the TT even if it has to sit and wait. And as said, it could not (instead of often doesn't) connect to some of the trains that it now can, when it's on time. Why make it permanently take longer to get there even when things are running smoothly? At least now it can arrive as currently scheduled if all goes well. And you couldn't change the times of the connecting trains because that would ripple through the system. Amtrak does a pretty good job of timing the long distance trains to maximize daylight hours for the best scenery now. Plus all the hassle with the track owners and scheduling. I think it would be a huge thing to do.


----------



## AlanB

gmushial said:


> Would this really involve negotiating new schedules, or merely accepting reality? The three RRs can't be oblivious to such... or can they? Isn't one of the major stumbling blocks sidings and single track conflicts? Wouldn't it be easier and involve less juggling in real-time to have a schedule that is possible, than having one that doesn't reflect reality and being forced into juggling trains, sidings on a daily basis?


Yes, it really does involve negotiating new schedules.

The RR's in some sense don't really care if Amtrak is late or not. Yes some work harder to keep Amtrak on time than others do and all are working harder now with the new rules out of Congress in 2008.

And no, it wouldn't make things any easier. The RR's in some cases cannot change the schedules on their freight trains, so a later running Amtrak train only changes the meeting places, but will still force someone into a siding. It may even force a freight train into the siding, a siding that it might not fit into, instead of Amtrak. It's kind of like widening a highway to get rid of a traffic jam that occurs daily, only to find that all you did was move the traffic jam 5 miles down the road to where the newly widened highway ends.

Finally, in the case of some RR's, adding time does nothing but make the run longer for Amtrak. Back in the early 2000's, pre-Katrina, the Sunset was notoriously late; including a few 24 hour late arrivals. So Amtrak went to UP & CSX and basically said "what can we do to fix this?" The resulting agreement was that 10 - 1/2 hours were added to the schedule; 8 for UP between LAX & NOL, 2 - 1/2 for CSX between NOL & ORL.

And the end result was that the Sunset Limited ran even later than ever before, with more 24 hour delays and even some 48 hour delays on UP. The RR's simply gobbled up that extra time and still couldn't manage to make the train run on time.

Yes there have been a few times in the past where a host has asked Amtrak for a few extra hours and they've delivered when that was granted. But generally that has not been the case, they simply enjoy the increased padding and still run Amtrak late. And one big difference in all of this is that these have been permanent schedule changes; whereas your looking for a seasonal schedule change. That's far less likely to be granted by the hosts.


----------



## gmushial

AlanB said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would this really involve negotiating new schedules, or merely accepting reality? The three RRs can't be oblivious to such... or can they? Isn't one of the major stumbling blocks sidings and single track conflicts? Wouldn't it be easier and involve less juggling in real-time to have a schedule that is possible, than having one that doesn't reflect reality and being forced into juggling trains, sidings on a daily basis?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it really does involve negotiating new schedules.
> 
> The RR's in some sense don't really care if Amtrak is late or not. Yes some work harder to keep Amtrak on time than others do and all are working harder now with the new rules out of Congress in 2008.
> 
> And no, it wouldn't make things any easier. The RR's in some cases cannot change the schedules on their freight trains, so a later running Amtrak train only changes the meeting places, but will still force someone into a siding. It may even force a freight train into the siding, a siding that it might not fit into, instead of Amtrak. It's kind of like widening a highway to get rid of a traffic jam that occurs daily, only to find that all you did was move the traffic jam 5 miles down the road to where the newly widened highway ends.
> 
> Finally, in the case of some RR's, adding time does nothing but make the run longer for Amtrak. Back in the early 2000's, pre-Katrina, the Sunset was notoriously late; including a few 24 hour late arrivals. So Amtrak went to UP & CSX and basically said "what can we do to fix this?" The resulting agreement was that 10 - 1/2 hours were added to the schedule; 8 for UP between LAX & NOL, 2 - 1/2 for CSX between NOL & ORL.
> 
> And the end result was that the Sunset Limited ran even later than ever before, with more 24 hour delays and even some 48 hour delays on UP. The RR's simply gobbled up that extra time and still couldn't manage to make the train run on time.
> 
> Yes there have been a few times in the past where a host has asked Amtrak for a few extra hours and they've delivered when that was granted. But generally that has not been the case, they simply enjoy the increased padding and still run Amtrak late. And one big difference in all of this is that these have been permanent schedule changes; whereas your looking for a seasonal schedule change. That's far less likely to be granted by the hosts.
Click to expand...

Alan, sir,

A hugely knowledgeable reply - many thanks.

I guess the problem is that I've been in computing for almost a half-century, and been in positions where huge schedules had to be sorted out / optimized (eg, spaceflight), and have to believe that given realistic characterizations of routes and trains, that one can come up with schedules where everyone wins: where neither train (in the case of two trains in opposing directions) has to stop, especially a freight (thinking about getting a train back up to speed and associated fuel costs), but also a passenger train in terms of schedule.

It seems that there are two types of models that would be useful: 1) a predictive model whereby one can generate "suspected" schedules - like the Amtrak seasonal timetables, and 2) a dynamic model where one can juggle train speeds so that in optimal circumstances no train ever has to wait for another (like that'll ever happen), or at least an outcome where passenger trains are optimized for arrival times, and freights are optimized for cost for freight-ton-mile.

Approach and departure control at major airports do this - a plane doesn't push back form a gate until there is a path for it to taxi out and take off, likewise, approaching planes are asked to reduce speed or forced into a holding pattern until there is a landing slot available.. where the net result is something like 98%+ of the theoretical capacity of the system. Yes, I suspect the number of trains, the conditions of the various lines (maintenance or rail heat concerns, etc), the length of trains are more dynamic than the air flight situation, but given the super cheap computational capacity available today, and the GPS knowledge of exactly where all the players are, one should be able - and it's really in the interest of all the players - to generate orders which produce the best possible results per all the player's priorities.

So, what I'm suggesting is: that given recent historic traffic and conditions, one generates an optimal probable schedule for all players (which is what gets published), and in real-time as loads, trains and conditions change, one dynamically generates new orders to optimize around those, and again, per each player's priorities [even to the level of letting a passenger train know that there is a window of time that it can leave a station during where it'll have clear sailing, but if it misses that window, the next window that it'll have clear sailing, ie, avoiding the situation where a train simply appears on the line and now has to compete for resources].... I could go on quite a bit - but I suspect/hope you get the point.

again, many thanks for the knowledgeable previous reply - greg


----------



## CHamilton

Back on 8. 1:30 late at Red Wing, 1:40 at Winona. Now approaching LaCrosse on the 'slow route' and I suspect we'll be 2 hours late by then. Just heard part of an announcement that seemed to be talking about hotels in Chicago. Glad I chose to stay overnight in Chicago and catch the Cardinal tomorrow.


----------



## ChooChoo

I have seen kind of a pattern in the ontime performance of Train 8 on the weekends into Chicago. It seems that weekend arrivals tend to do better on time. I'll be on Train 8 (2) next month (July) from MT (arrival in CHI July 4th) and was wondering if any of you think that whatever forces at work on the weekends that help Train 8 might also play a role in keeping better time due to the July 4th holiday? It'll put a huge kink in things to miss the Train 50 connection to central WV. Amtraks voucher will be usless to all members of my party since the last I traveled was 4 years ago and the other reservation couple was 5 years ago.


----------



## CHamilton

8 running 2 hours late at Tomah and Wisconsin Dells.


----------



## gmushial

CHamilton said:


> 8 running 2 hours late at Tomah and Wisconsin Dells.


Sounds like: further you go, the further behind you get. :-(


----------



## CHamilton

From 8: Announced that all connecting passengers will be bussed from Chicago except 354 will be bussed from MKE, 305 passengers will take 307, and no information on 30 yet. ETA into Chicago 6 pm, as we will get stuck behind Metra.


----------



## anir dendroica

AlanB said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would this really involve negotiating new schedules, or merely accepting reality? The three RRs can't be oblivious to such... or can they? Isn't one of the major stumbling blocks sidings and single track conflicts? Wouldn't it be easier and involve less juggling in real-time to have a schedule that is possible, than having one that doesn't reflect reality and being forced into juggling trains, sidings on a daily basis?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it really does involve negotiating new schedules.
> 
> The RR's in some sense don't really care if Amtrak is late or not. Yes some work harder to keep Amtrak on time than others do and all are working harder now with the new rules out of Congress in 2008.
> 
> And no, it wouldn't make things any easier. The RR's in some cases cannot change the schedules on their freight trains, so a later running Amtrak train only changes the meeting places, but will still force someone into a siding. It may even force a freight train into the siding, a siding that it might not fit into, instead of Amtrak. It's kind of like widening a highway to get rid of a traffic jam that occurs daily, only to find that all you did was move the traffic jam 5 miles down the road to where the newly widened highway ends.
> 
> Finally, in the case of some RR's, adding time does nothing but make the run longer for Amtrak. Back in the early 2000's, pre-Katrina, the Sunset was notoriously late; including a few 24 hour late arrivals. So Amtrak went to UP & CSX and basically said "what can we do to fix this?" The resulting agreement was that 10 - 1/2 hours were added to the schedule; 8 for UP between LAX & NOL, 2 - 1/2 for CSX between NOL & ORL.
> 
> And the end result was that the Sunset Limited ran even later than ever before, with more 24 hour delays and even some 48 hour delays on UP. The RR's simply gobbled up that extra time and still couldn't manage to make the train run on time.
> 
> Yes there have been a few times in the past where a host has asked Amtrak for a few extra hours and they've delivered when that was granted. But generally that has not been the case, they simply enjoy the increased padding and still run Amtrak late. And one big difference in all of this is that these have been permanent schedule changes; whereas your looking for a seasonal schedule change. That's far less likely to be granted by the hosts.
Click to expand...

Given that most of the delays, and most of the route-miles, are on BNSF, I think that a temporary schedule change could be negotiated with BNSF only. There is precedent for this in that the Coast Starlight schedule is occasionally moved two hours later to accommodate track construction.

Here's how I would do it:

1. Find a sixth trainset or cancel every sixth train (to allow overnight in SEA/PDX.)

2. Do nothing to #7's schedule. It will arrive late often but will still make the 27-11 connection with some regularity.

3. Move the departure times for #8 and #28 up by four hours. (12:45 from PDX, 12:40 from SEA). Move all times up by four hours to Shelby, MT. Move Minot, Rugby, DL, and GFK times up by three hours. Move Fargo-SCD times up by two hours. Leave MSP-CHI times unchanged (to avoid breaking connections, or needing to negotiate with CP/Metra).

The main headaches caused by these delays seem to be

--missed connections from #8 to eastern LD's, and

--unreliable MSP-CHI corridor service due to #8 delays out west, and

--forced turns in Spokane due to short turnaround times on the west coast.

These would all be fixed by my proposed changes.

Mark


----------



## CHamilton

From 8: Passengers connecting to 30 will apparently make it, by 10 minutes.


----------



## Bob Dylan

CHamilton said:


> From 8: Passengers connecting to 30 will apparently make it, by 10 minutes.


Enjoy your evening in Chicago Charlie! :hi: I'm one of those that has made the Platform Dash in Union Station from #6/#8/#4/#22 etc. to make a Connection East or to NOL! The Amtrak Staff in CHI is Very Experienced when it comes to Juggling Trains/Busses/Hotels etc. since they get So Much Practice! Think I'll skip the EB for awhile till the Oil Boom Mellows out and the Trackwork, the Heat Slow orders and Flooding goes away on the High Line!


----------



## CHamilton

As predicted, train 8 pulled into CHI at 5:50, and the folks connecting to 30 were told to go directly from our track (19) to track 26. So with any luck, they should have made it.

Glad I didn't have to make a connection tonight. Am safely arrived at my hotel, and not even wet, although a huge thunderstorm erupted while in the taxi halfway here, and I met a British couple in the elevator who were thoroughly soaked.

Off to find something to eat, then I'll relax tonight and resume the trip east tomorrow.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

CHamilton said:


> From 8: Announced that all connecting passengers will be bussed from Chicago except 354 will be bussed from MKE, 305 passengers will take 307, and no information on 30 yet. ETA into Chicago 6 pm, as we will get stuck behind Metra.


If 8 is late, do they ever bus people who are trying to connect to 30? I don't see how it would help, but I know Amtrak has bussed people in stranger situations.


----------



## tonys96

This information is really helpfu.!

We will be going from PDX to MSP on the EB in August. I see the late arrivals to CHI, but how has the OTP been to MSP? How late has it ran to there?

Thanks


----------



## Guest

When a situation like this happens, how do they determine to put connecting passengers on a bus vs. putting them up overnight?


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## Ryan

Timing. If it's close enough that a bus can make the connection, they'll do it. If there's no chance, a hotel is the answer.


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> This information is really helpfu.!
> We will be going from PDX to MSP on the EB in August. I see the late arrivals to CHI, but how has the OTP been to MSP? How late has it ran to there?
> 
> Thanks


http://www.dixielandsoftware.net/Amtrak/status/StatusPages/EmpireBuilderStatus.htmhttp://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/cgi-bin/train.cgi


----------



## Choo Choo

Ryan said:


> Timing. If it's close enough that a bus can make the connection, they'll do it. If there's no chance, a hotel is the answer.


With the current average on time performance for #8, what would the most likely course of action be for #50 connecting passengers that are only going to central WV? Bus to Indianapolis, next day #30 in coach and connect to #51 back, or bus all the way from CHI? I know of atleast 4 first class (not that it matters) passengers that will be making this connection.


----------



## yarrow

Ryan said:


> Timing. If it's close enough that a bus can make the connection, they'll do it. If there's no chance, a hotel is the answer.


or something else. a couple years ago we got to chi on the eb at 6:30 am(instead of 3:55 pm the previous day). we were headed to was. were told by conductors and an amtrak person who got on in msp that we would be put up and fed in chi and be on that evening's cl. when we got to chi, we were told we would be on an 18 hr bus trip to was and the busses were outside and "all aboard"


----------



## Observer

Do they usually bus people to Detroit? Seems like I may miss a connection if the EB has been coming in as late as it is.


----------



## June the Coach Rider

ChooChoo said:


> I have seen kind of a pattern in the ontime performance of Train 8 on the weekends into Chicago. It seems that weekend arrivals tend to do better on time. I'll be on Train 8 (2) next month (July) from MT (arrival in CHI July 4th) and was wondering if any of you think that whatever forces at work on the weekends that help Train 8 might also play a role in keeping better time due to the July 4th holiday? It'll put a huge kink in things to miss the Train 50 connection to central WV. Amtraks voucher will be usless to all members of my party since the last I traveled was 4 years ago and the other reservation couple was 5 years ago.


I will be in Chicago on July 4th, but arriving on the LSL and leaving on the SWC. Should see fireworks on the SWC that night and maybe the night before on the LSL


----------



## tonys96

Ryan said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This information is really helpfu.!
> We will be going from PDX to MSP on the EB in August. I see the late arrivals to CHI, but how has the OTP been to MSP? How late has it ran to there?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dixielandsoftware.net/Amtrak/status/StatusPages/EmpireBuilderStatus.htmhttp://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/cgi-bin/train.cgi
Click to expand...

Thanks!

The first link shows about 1.5 to 2 hrs late which will be no problem at all.

The second link did not work on my laptop


----------



## montana mike

I see this AM, after a couple of days where #8 was "only 90+ minutes late into CHI, yesterday #8 was over 3 hours behind schedule and today's #8, currently still in MN, not even to MSP yet, is over 4 hours behind--good grief. #7 in ND isn't doing much better either. This is going to be a long summer for the EB. Were the last two day's delays due to any one time things or just more of the same ongoing contributors?


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> I see this AM, after a couple of days where #8 was "only 90+ minutes late into CHI, yesterday #8 was over 3 hours behind schedule and today's #8, currently still in MN, not even to MSP yet, is over 4 hours behind--good grief. #7 in ND isn't doing much better either. This is going to be a long summer for the EB. Were the last two day's delays due to any one time things or just more of the same ongoing contributors?


i seem to remember last year that the trains that went through n.dakota on the weekends seemed generally to do better and i assumed this was because of less trackwork. that doesn't necessarily apply in this case but, iirc, the weekend trains did better than the trains during last week


----------



## JayPea

#7 of yesterday wasn't doing too badly until the usual trouble spots in N.D. It left Chicago half an hour down, and was over an hour down til Minneapolis, when it left only 30 minutes down. I'm tracking it closely as I board #27 to Portland tomorrow morning in Spokane. I've noticed other EB's that are this late (2hrs 15 minutes at Rugby) eventually make up enough time that they are less than an hour late into Portland. Here's hoping that still holds true.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Jeff: D-Day but who's Counting, Right? ^_^ It doesnt look real Good! #7 is over 2 Hours Late out of Minot and as we say. Late Trains tend to become Very Late! I know you're used to being in the SPK Station in the Wee Hours, I'm not sure what time it gets Light in that part of the World Now but I'd think that you may even be having Breakfast soon after Rolling out of SPK or even in SPK! Tough Summer on the High Line and it doesn't look like things will Improve till Fall! Hope the Ride down the Columbia is Smooth, the Sun is Shinning and your Marginals beat the Flubs! Bet you wont be Sleeping much today/tonight!


----------



## tomfuller

27 will be arriving in PDX by 10AM PDT about 10 minutes early.

The joined train arrived in Spokane about 3 minutes late.


----------



## JayPea

Sleep???Heck no! I was up at quarter to three this AM, checking the Amtrak status maps first thing! :lol: And I'm not going to take a nap later! I don't want to take a chance on oversleeping and missing the train!  :lol: As for light, about 4-4:30 it begins to lighten up, particularly if the idiots who misforecast our weather here are actually right, as it's supposed to be clear tomorrow morning. I'll keep checking the status maps. This is Amtrak we're talking about so plenty can happen in the next few hours  but as I said before if the same pattern holds, I should get into Portland an hour to hour and a half late, plenty of time to peruse Powell's Bookstore and grab lunch at Jake's Famous Crawfish. I hope!  I catch Cascades 516 to Seattle at 2:45 tomorrow afternoon (I think; they've changed the departure time so many times)  but hopefully have plenty of time to do what I wanted to do in Portland first.


----------



## montana mike

Looking like #8, now still plugging away across MN will be over 4 hours late in CHI town. Bummer, many connections to miss when they are that late, unless Amtrak holds some of the trains.

:-(

PS-My son was on #7 yesterday and arrived in WFH only 50 minutes behind schedule, which we thought was quite good. He said they lost about an hour for slow orders in Eastern MT and perhaps as much for the same in ND, but were able to make up more than half of those delays by the time the train arrived in WFH. All in all not too bad a performance given some of the other delays we have seen in WFH over the past couple weeks.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

montana mike said:


> Looking like #8, now still plugging away across MN will be over 4 hours late in CHI town. Bummer, many connections to miss when they are that late, unless Amtrak holds some of the trains.:-(
> 
> PS-My son was on #7 yesterday and arrived in WFH only 50 minutes behind schedule, which we thought was quite good. He said they lost about an hour for slow orders in Eastern MT and perhaps as much for the same in ND, but were able to make up more than half of those delays by the time the train arrived in WFH. All in all not too bad a performance given some of the other delays we have seen in WFH over the past couple weeks.


Yeah, 52 minutes late into WFH isn't bad for this week - #7 is currently running 2 hours 42 minutes crossing into Montana right now. At this rate will probably arrive in WFH around midnight.

With 8 running 4 hours late in Minnesota right now, it looks like it will miss the connection to 30 again. Sixth time in eight days.


----------



## gmushial

montana mike said:


> Looking like #8, now still plugging away across MN will be over 4 hours late in CHI town. Bummer, many connections to miss when they are that late, unless Amtrak holds some of the trains.:-(
> 
> PS-My son was on #7 yesterday and arrived in WFH only 50 minutes behind schedule, which we thought was quite good. He said they lost about an hour for slow orders in Eastern MT and perhaps as much for the same in ND, but were able to make up more than half of those delays by the time the train arrived in WFH. All in all not too bad a performance given some of the other delays we have seen in WFH over the past couple weeks.


I know when I was on #6 in May we picked up about an hour btwn DEN and LNK - my question is: how much room is there to make up time? Clearly the way one makes up time is by going faster... just how much faster can an engineer get away with? If a section can nominally be traversed at 60, can he do 65, 70? When does he get into trouble, either with superiors or reality, ie, train hops track etc?


----------



## jebr

gmushial said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking like #8, now still plugging away across MN will be over 4 hours late in CHI town. Bummer, many connections to miss when they are that late, unless Amtrak holds some of the trains.:-(
> 
> PS-My son was on #7 yesterday and arrived in WFH only 50 minutes behind schedule, which we thought was quite good. He said they lost about an hour for slow orders in Eastern MT and perhaps as much for the same in ND, but were able to make up more than half of those delays by the time the train arrived in WFH. All in all not too bad a performance given some of the other delays we have seen in WFH over the past couple weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> I know when I was on #6 in May we picked up about an hour btwn DEN and LNK - my question is: how much room is there to make up time? Clearly the way one makes up time is by going faster... just how much faster can an engineer get away with? If a section can nominally be traversed at 60, can he do 65, 70? When does he get into trouble, either with superiors or reality, ie, train hops track etc?
Click to expand...

0MPH over speed limit. If a track is rated for 79MPH, he can get in trouble for doing 80MPH. I don't know how much leeway they give, but it's 1-2MPH at most.


----------



## gmushial

jebr said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking like #8, now still plugging away across MN will be over 4 hours late in CHI town. Bummer, many connections to miss when they are that late, unless Amtrak holds some of the trains.:-(
> 
> PS-My son was on #7 yesterday and arrived in WFH only 50 minutes behind schedule, which we thought was quite good. He said they lost about an hour for slow orders in Eastern MT and perhaps as much for the same in ND, but were able to make up more than half of those delays by the time the train arrived in WFH. All in all not too bad a performance given some of the other delays we have seen in WFH over the past couple weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> I know when I was on #6 in May we picked up about an hour btwn DEN and LNK - my question is: how much room is there to make up time? Clearly the way one makes up time is by going faster... just how much faster can an engineer get away with? If a section can nominally be traversed at 60, can he do 65, 70? When does he get into trouble, either with superiors or reality, ie, train hops track etc?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 0MPH over speed limit. If a track is rated for 79MPH, he can get in trouble for doing 80MPH. I don't know how much leeway they give, but it's 1-2MPH at most.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply. Is there a difference btwn the track speed limit, and normal traversal speed, ie, as a margin of safety does a train or schedule have trains travel somewhat below the speed limit? ... so when we picked up the hour btwn DEN and LNK, he was probably pushing right up against the limit, whereas the normal speed might have been somewhat slower? Likewise, I'm assuming GPS is used to report train locations back to OMA or wherever - is that how it would be found out he was over the limit?


----------



## Texan Eagle

gmushial said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply. Is there a difference btwn the track speed limit, and normal traversal speed, ie, as a margin of safety does a train or schedule have trains travel somewhat below the speed limit? ... so when we picked up the hour btwn DEN and LNK, he was probably pushing right up against the limit, whereas the normal speed might have been somewhat slower? Likewise, I'm assuming GPS is used to report train locations back to OMA or wherever - is that how it would be found out he was over the limit?
Click to expand...

If track is rated for 79MPH, engineer will go at 79MPH all the time unless there are slow orders or signals slowing them down. The way long distance trains "make up time" is due to padding. Their schedules are laid out liberally. If traveling from station A to B actually takes 3hrs if done at 79MPH all the way, the time allocated for this run would be, say, 3.5hrs. So now if you got a clear track, you have "made up" 30 minutes of schedule without doing anything extraordinary.

As for reporting, I believe the locomotives have a tracking device that registers what speed the engineer was doing and the data is collected at end of trip (or relayed in real time? not sure) for analysis. If I remember correctly, the locomotives also have a speed control mechanism where brakes are applied automatically if the engineer overspeeds over a certain threshold.


----------



## JayPea

Not looking great now for me as the EB is now over 3 hrs late out of Wolf Point and always loses time between Wolf Point and Glasgow. But past Havre I've noticed the tendency is to make up time and lots of it. Powell's and Jake's may be out, though.


----------



## Bob Dylan

JayPea said:


> Not looking great now for me as the EB is now over 3 hrs late out of Wolf Point and always loses time between Wolf Point and Glasgow. But past Havre I've noticed the tendency is to make up time and lots of it. Powell's and Jake's may be out, though.


Jeff: Could you Rebook on the Starlight or a Later Cascades from PDX-SEA if you're late into PDX? Will probably Cost more but maybe you'd get Lucky and have time for Lunch and hitting Powells which, as we know, is one of the Highlites of Portland!


----------



## JayPea

If need be I will cancel the Cascades and take the Starlight, but as I will be back in Portland in September, when things hopefully will settle down, I can always do it then. Right now I wll do the Starlight only if I will otherwise misconnect with the Cascades.


----------



## Bob Dylan

JayPea said:


> If need be I will cancel the Cascades and take the Starlight, but as I will be back in Portland in September, when things hopefully will settle down, I can always do it then. Right now I wll do the Starlight only if I will otherwise misconnect with the Cascades.


The Starlite#14 leaves @ 4:15PM, the Current Coach Fare is shown as $43/Arrives SEA @ 8:30PM (if on Time!) Same Coach Fare for the 6:15PM Cascades 508 which Arrives into SEA @ 9:45PM, Im not positive if you have a Low Bucket or are using Points on this Trip but perhaps it would be worth it to have a Good Meal in PDX after a long Nite and then browse Powells @ your Leisure! 

Of course if the Marginals signed you and youre Pitching Tomorrow that's another Story! :giggle:


----------



## AlanB

Texan Eagle said:


> If I remember correctly, the locomotives also have a speed control mechanism where brakes are applied automatically if the engineer overspeeds over a certain threshold.


There is a system on the locos like that, however it only applies to the maximum authorized speed for the trains entire run. For example, the top speed for the Empire Builder is 79 MPH, so the computer is set to hit the brakes if the engineer exceeds 83 MPH or goes over 79 MPH for an extended period of time. But if that train just happens to be traveling in a 59 MPH zone, the computer is unaware of that so an engineer could technically go 65 and the computer wouldn't care.

Positive Train Control (PTC) fixes that issue and allows the engine's computer to know what that the maximum authorized speed has changed.

On the Southwest Chief, there are a few places where the train can go 90 MPH. So again, the computer is set for that limit. So when the train is running in a 79 MPH zone, or a 59 MPH zone, or anything less, the computer won't stop the engineer from speeding.

However, as you mentioned, there are logs on the engines that would still catch it. Additionally, it is not uncommon for the host RR to put someone alongside the tracks with a speed gun to try and catch speeding engineers. And unlike a driver in their car, the penalty isn't a ticket. It's suspension and quite possibly a career ending banishment from ever operating an engine again on that host RR's tracks.

So most engineers take great care not to exceed the track speed.


----------



## JayPea

Score one (or two) for padding! I'm on the EB now (#27) and we left Spokane "only" 2 1/2 hours late, not bad considering it was over 4 1/2 hours late at Havre.


----------



## Observer

I have an app on my phone that keeps track of speed/time/distance and plots out the changes on a graph. I keep it running when I'm on Amtrak.

The fastest I have seen one of these transcontinental is 82 MPH. I think there is probably some "wiggle room" built in - and realistically, no one is in danger if the train is going 82 instead of 79.


----------



## gmushial

AlanB said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, the locomotives also have a speed control mechanism where brakes are applied automatically if the engineer overspeeds over a certain threshold.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a system on the locos like that, however it only applies to the maximum authorized speed for the trains entire run. For example, the top speed for the Empire Builder is 79 MPH, so the computer is set to hit the brakes if the engineer exceeds 83 MPH or goes over 79 MPH for an extended period of time. But if that train just happens to be traveling in a 59 MPH zone, the computer is unaware of that so an engineer could technically go 65 and the computer wouldn't care.
> 
> Positive Train Control (PTC) fixes that issue and allows the engine's computer to know what that the maximum authorized speed has changed.
> 
> On the Southwest Chief, there are a few places where the train can go 90 MPH. So again, the computer is set for that limit. So when the train is running in a 79 MPH zone, or a 59 MPH zone, or anything less, the computer won't stop the engineer from speeding.
> 
> However, as you mentioned, there are logs on the engines that would still catch it. Additionally, it is not uncommon for the host RR to put someone alongside the tracks with a speed gun to try and catch speeding engineers. And unlike a driver in their car, the penalty isn't a ticket. It's suspension and quite possibly a career ending banishment from ever operating an engine again on that host RR's tracks.
> 
> So most engineers take great care not to exceed the track speed.
Click to expand...

Yet again - hugely insightful posting... and you answered my question about what I guess is called PTC - and hence my comment w/re GPS and realtime feedback to Omaha (or wherever) - was trying to figure out how the limiter knew what the local limits were... sounds like currently they don't, but will in the near future [noticing the UP has a software position open for the development of PTC].


----------



## gmushial

Observer said:


> I have an app on my phone that keeps track of speed/time/distance and plots out the changes on a graph. I keep it running when I'm on Amtrak.
> The fastest I have seen one of these transcontinental is 82 MPH. I think there is probably some "wiggle room" built in - and realistically, no one is in danger if the train is going 82 instead of 79.


I'm going to have to try that and see what I see - GPS works fine on the freeways... why shouldn't it work fine on the train freeways??


----------



## montana mike

I regularly use my iPhone App showing our speed on my EB trips and it is good to see how close the train adheres to both the 79 mph top speed and when we have slow orders how accurate that speed is compared to what the Conductor has told us. Although I hate to see us plugging along at 25 mph on the wide open plains of MT and ND sometimes!!!

PS--Looks like it will be a challenging day for both #7's as they head westbound today. The one in eastern ND is already over 3 hours behind, with slow orders ahead of them, and the other in WA is over 2 1/2 hours behind, which likely means a modest delay in the departure of #8 this afternoon. We shall see. Good to see the #8 just leaving MSP was actually only about 1 hour behind. People might even be able to make connections in CHI for this one.


----------



## Observer

Well, I'm not using a normal GPS mapping program, this is called "SpeedView". Definitely a nice app to have to confirm when you are hitting a slow down or just curious about how your route is progressing.


----------



## fairviewroad

AlanB said:


> it is not uncommon for the host RR to put someone alongside the tracks with a speed gun to try and catch speeding engineers.


Boy, that sounds like a railfan's dream job. Sit around all day watching for fast trains!


----------



## crescent2

gmushial said:


> Observer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have an app on my phone that keeps track of speed/time/distance and plots out the changes on a graph. I keep it running when I'm on Amtrak.
> The fastest I have seen one of these transcontinental is 82 MPH. I think there is probably some "wiggle room" built in - and realistically, no one is in danger if the train is going 82 instead of 79.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to have to try that and see what I see - *GPS works fine on the freeways... why shouldn't it work fine on the train freeways??*
Click to expand...

We've tried it a couple of times and ours did work fine. We just had to keep it by the window.

The fastest speed I recall seeing was 80 for a few seconds (79 limit), but we didn't watch it continuously.


----------



## Texan Eagle

crescent2 said:


> gmushial said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Observer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have an app on my phone that keeps track of speed/time/distance and plots out the changes on a graph. I keep it running when I'm on Amtrak.
> The fastest I have seen one of these transcontinental is 82 MPH. I think there is probably some "wiggle room" built in - and realistically, no one is in danger if the train is going 82 instead of 79.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to have to try that and see what I see - *GPS works fine on the freeways... why shouldn't it work fine on the train freeways??*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We've tried it a couple of times and ours did work fine. We just had to keep it by the window.
> 
> The fastest speed I recall seeing was 80 for a few seconds (79 limit), but we didn't watch it continuously.
Click to expand...

Both- in-car GPS as well as GPS apps on iPhone/Android/Windows phones work fine on Amtrak as far as monitoring speed is concerned.

One thing to note for in-car GPS is, it is designed to "stay on the road", so if your train is passing close to a road, the "car" on the GPS screen will abruptly jump to the road and try following it instead of train tracks. Solution to this is, change the mode on your GPS, if it allows, from "Car" to "Pedestrian" or "Bicycle", then it does not insist on staying on the road, and accurately follows the rail track alignment.


----------



## montana mike

Observer said:


> Well, I'm not using a normal GPS mapping program, this is called "SpeedView". Definitely a nice app to have to confirm when you are hitting a slow down or just curious about how your route is progressing.


I use Speed Box.

;-)


----------



## montana mike

The EB can't cut a break. They were "only" 2 hours behind at Glenview yesterday, then had to sit just north of Union Station for over two hours due to a switch failure--arrrrrgh. So #8 arrived over 4 hours behind. That must have driven the passengers and crew nuts--so close, yet so far away!

:-(


----------



## yarrow

our temperatures in e. washington are to be up around 100 for the first part of the week(not near as hot as in the southwest)and i see havre,mt, as an example, will be in the 90's the coming week. should we expect bnsf heat restrictions?


----------



## JayPea

If the threshold is still 85, then I'd say that's a pretty good chance. I return to Spokane from Seattle tomorrow and it's supposed to be 90 or near it in Seattle. I may experience some heat restrictions on 8 tomorrow. And as it's supposed to be 110 or more in Pasco the first part of next week, I'd say that it's an even bigger certainty for heat restrictions on 28 for that time period.


----------



## montana mike

My BNSF contact in MT says be prepared for Heat Restrictions (85 degrees or higher) many of the summer during the daylight hours along much of the EB route. 60 mph is the normal speed restriction-which means the trains lose about an hour on the schedule for every three hours or so at the slower speed, or about 2-3 hours of delays due to heat during the hottest days (this comment directly from the BNSF management in MT). They plan on a slight break on the construction schedule on 7/4, but do plan on some work 7/5 and 7/6.


----------



## NW cannonball

Afraid this will be a long long thread.


----------



## montana mike

An additional update on info from BNSF:

Anyone following the EB's lately will definitely see a pattern: Arrivals in CHI about 1 1/2 to 2 hours late on the weekends and 3-4 hours late during the week days. Lesser delays (of 1-2 hours) arriving into SEA. In speaking with several BNSF engineers this should be a good estimate for the rest of the summer (July thru at least a good part of Sept). The difference being they do less track work on the weekends. Note: This does not include any significant slow orders due to high heat (fyi-forecast for Monday in western MT is upper 90's--ouch).

So anyone making travel plans and needing to build in connections, etc... should be guided by the estimates from the host railroad. Given the actuals over the past couple weeks I would concur with their estimates.


----------



## June the Coach Rider

This does not sound like fun, except for more hours on the train. But, I have a connection to the CS from Portland on the 7th, suppose to have a four hour layover, So this should work OK? How would I get to Eugene if EB does not make the connection?

edited to add, My train leaves chicago on the 5th, so I am sure to hit delays?


----------



## Texan Eagle

June the Coach Rider said:


> This does not sound like fun, except for more hours on the train. But, I have a connection to the CS from Portland on the 7th, suppose to have a four hour layover, So this should work OK? How would I get to Eugene if EB does not make the connection?
> edited to add, My train leaves chicago on the 5th, so I am sure to hit delays?


I have to make the same connection, one day before you. Starting from CHI on 4th, have to connect to southbound CS at PDX on 6th and a missed connection will mess up my plans. Let's see how this goes.

You are in slightly better condition than me since you are heading only upto Eugene. If you miss the connection, Amtrak might put you in a bus or a van for the 110 mile ride, not too bad. I have to go all the way to San Jose, so if I miss connection, I guess I'll have to overnight in PDX.


----------



## June the Coach Rider

Texan Eagle said:


> June the Coach Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> This does not sound like fun, except for more hours on the train. But, I have a connection to the CS from Portland on the 7th, suppose to have a four hour layover, So this should work OK? How would I get to Eugene if EB does not make the connection?
> edited to add, My train leaves chicago on the 5th, so I am sure to hit delays?
> 
> 
> 
> I have to make the same connection, one day before you. Starting from CHI on 4th, have to connect to southbound CS at PDX on 6th and a missed connection will mess up my plans. Let's see how this goes.
> 
> You are in slightly better condition than me since you are heading only upto Eugene. If you miss the connection, Amtrak might put you in a bus or a van for the 110 mile ride, not too bad. I have to go all the way to San Jose, so if I miss connection, I guess I'll have to overnight in PDX.
Click to expand...

I would have been on that one, but the LSL is sold out on the 3rd so I am leaving on the 4th.


----------



## yarrow

last year when the eb delays happened, iirc, amtrak stopped guaranteeing the connection between the eb and the cs. we are booked for this connection in early september. if they do this again and you are already booked what would amtrak do?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="JayPea" data-cid="450984" data-time="1372265232"><p>

Sleep???Heck no! I was up at quarter to three this AM, checking the Amtrak status maps first thing! :lol: And I'm not going to take a nap later! I don't want to take a chance on oversleeping and missing the train!  :lol: As for light, about 4-4:30 it begins to lighten up, particularly if the idiots who misforecast our weather here are actually right, as it's supposed to be clear tomorrow morning. I'll keep checking the status maps. This is Amtrak we're talking about so plenty can happen in the next few hours  but as I said before if the same pattern holds, I should get into Portland an hour to hour and a half late, plenty of time to peruse Powell's Bookstore and grab lunch at Jake's Famous Crawfish. I hope!  I catch Cascades 516 to Seattle at 2:45 tomorrow afternoon (I think; they've changed the departure time so many times)  but hopefully have plenty of time to do what I wanted to do in Portland first.</p></blockquote>

I just saw Powell's mentioned on FB. There was an HLAA convention in Portland this weekend & one of the ladies posted someone told her to check it out. It's getting positive reviews from her friends.


----------



## JayPea

AmtrakBlue said:


> <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="JayPea" data-cid="450984" data-time="1372265232"><p>Sleep???Heck no! I was up at quarter to three this AM, checking the Amtrak status maps first thing! :lol: And I'm not going to take a nap later! I don't want to take a chance on oversleeping and missing the train!  :lol: As for light, about 4-4:30 it begins to lighten up, particularly if the idiots who misforecast our weather here are actually right, as it's supposed to be clear tomorrow morning. I'll keep checking the status maps. This is Amtrak we're talking about so plenty can happen in the next few hours  but as I said before if the same pattern holds, I should get into Portland an hour to hour and a half late, plenty of time to peruse Powell's Bookstore and grab lunch at Jake's Famous Crawfish. I hope!  I catch Cascades 516 to Seattle at 2:45 tomorrow afternoon (I think; they've changed the departure time so many times)  but hopefully have plenty of time to do what I wanted to do in Portland first.</p></blockquote>
> 
> I just saw Powell's mentioned on FB. There was an HLAA convention in Portland this weekend & one of the ladies posted someone told her to check it out. It's getting positive reviews from her friends.


Turns out the EB was a couple of hours late into Portland. While I would have had time to go to Powell's after my lunch at Jake's (the two are just a block or so from each other) there wouldn't have been time for me to do Powell's justice. Besides, with all my electronic toys, batteries, cords, chargers, adapters, and power strips, not to mention clothes, I'd have had no room for books anyway. :lol:

I will be back in Portland in September so maybe will have time then.


----------



## Rail Freak

Looks like the 7/27 had one of it's better arrival times into Spokane, last night!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Rail Freak said:


> Looks like the 7/27 had one of it's better arrival times into Spokane, last night!


It seems to be random. 7 was only 66 minutes into WFH on the 28th when I was on it. I say "only" because we still got to see all the scenery in Glacier during daylight hours. That's about the best it has been in weeks, so I consider myself lucky!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

So what happened to the westbound 7 tonight? It was running 2.5 hours late leaving GPK, and another 2.5 hours later it still hasn't arrived in Essex.


----------



## montana mike

#8 in ND this AM doesn't seem to be faring very well either--now over 3 hours late (having lost most of this time in the usual eastern ND places overnight--and this despite the fact that no construction is going on today along the hi-line. So much for our theory that on time performance would improve when the track work eases off. The EB arrivals had stayed just under 2 hours late in CHI for 4 days in a row (still poor, but a heck of a lot better than the previous several weeks). Looks like today's arrival will break this short string of reasonably late arrivals in CHI town--bummer.


----------



## jebr

montana mike said:


> #8 in ND this AM doesn't seem to be faring very well either--now over 3 hours late (having lost most of this time in the usual eastern ND places overnight--and this despite the fact that no construction is going on today along the hi-line. So much for our theory that on time performance would improve when the track work eases off. The EB arrivals had stayed just under 2 hours late in CHI for 4 days in a row (still poor, but a heck of a lot better than the previous several weeks). Looks like today's arrival will break this short string of reasonably late arrivals in CHI town--bummer.


Yikes. Here's hoping it's better by the Gathering!


----------



## TraneMan

jebr said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> #8 in ND this AM doesn't seem to be faring very well either--now over 3 hours late (having lost most of this time in the usual eastern ND places overnight--and this despite the fact that no construction is going on today along the hi-line. So much for our theory that on time performance would improve when the track work eases off. The EB arrivals had stayed just under 2 hours late in CHI for 4 days in a row (still poor, but a heck of a lot better than the previous several weeks). Looks like today's arrival will break this short string of reasonably late arrivals in CHI town--bummer.
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes. Here's hoping it's better by the Gathering!
Click to expand...

By that time the summer works should be done.


----------



## montana mike

BNSF says "mid-October" completion dates for eastern MT track work, they have no firm completion date set yet for the ND work (delays in getting some of the items needed evidently), although this was supposed to be finished "late 2013" as well. #8 arrived in CHI town about 2 hours late today and #7 trekking thru western MT tonight is over 3 hours behind. C'est La Vie'


----------



## crescent2

Is something similar likely to happen next year and continue into October? It sounds like this year's work may be more than the usual routine summer maintenance. ??? Thanks-


----------



## montana mike

My BNSF guy here in MT says they are spending a very large amount of $$ to upgrade and improve tracks due to the increased energy train movements as well as more modest increases in intermodal trains as well. They are indeed spending more resources this summer and fall. But he pointed out this is part of a multi-year upgrade program, not just this year. Note: He said the projections of movements from ND and MT for energy related trains are "very substantial" and will make the hi-line a very busy route over the next several decades.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> He said the projections of movements from ND and MT for energy related trains are "very substantial" and will make the hi-line a very busy route over the next several decades.


i read that if you want to buy a new tank car the wait for delivery is 30 months


----------



## Bob Dylan

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> He said the projections of movements from ND and MT for energy related trains are "very substantial" and will make the hi-line a very busy route over the next several decades.
> 
> 
> 
> i read that if you want to buy a new tank car the wait for delivery is 30 months
Click to expand...

There is a Tank Car Factory in East Texas besides the Tracks on the Texas Eagle Route between Marshall and Longview that fabricates these Cars and they seem to be extremely busy day and night! Good High Paying Jobs for Americans, this seems to be one type of Job that we haven't "Outsourced" to Third World Countries!


----------



## montana mike

BTW-I asked the BNSF engineer I know here locally if BNSF was considering adding more double track along the hi-line and he just chuckled. Too much cost he said (even though he admitted BNSF was making "a killing" on the energy boom (his words)). He pointed out the vast distances involved--the trip from SEA to MSP is over 1500 miles thru some challenging terrain. He said it would take "multiple years" of construction-after lengthy design and approval process. He did not deny this would be an "ideal" solution, but said no senior management at BNSF has stated this was their goal in any public forum recently.

I asked him if BNSF had discussed the increase in traffic on the hi-line with AMTRAK and whether AMTRAK might alter schedules at some point to reflect this and he said that was up to "the powers that be" and he personally believes that the traffic load will get to the point that AMTRAK will be forced to do something, since he saw only more and more traffic on this route.

I think we will just have to live with delays--sometimes relatively minor (1-2 hours), sometimes major (4-6 hours) and as they say in AMTRAK--enjoy the ride!! As long as I can make connections and/or enjoy an extra night on the town in CHI I guess things could be worse.


----------



## jebr

montana mike said:


> BTW-I asked the BNSF engineer I know here locally if BNSF was considering adding more double track along the hi-line and he just chuckled. Too much cost he said (even though he admitted BNSF was making "a killing" on the energy boom (his words)). He pointed out the vast distances involved--the trip from SEA to MSP is over 1500 miles thru some challenging terrain. He said it would take "multiple years" of construction-after lengthy design and approval process. He did not deny this would be an "ideal" solution, but said no senior management at BNSF has stated this was their goal in any public forum recently.I asked him if BNSF had discussed the increase in traffic on the hi-line with AMTRAK and whether AMTRAK might alter schedules at some point to reflect this and he said that was up to "the powers that be" and he personally believes that the traffic load will get to the point that AMTRAK will be forced to do something, since he saw only more and more traffic on this route.
> 
> I think we will just have to live with delays--sometimes relatively minor (1-2 hours), sometimes major (4-6 hours) and as they say in AMTRAK--enjoy the ride!! As long as I can make connections and/or enjoy an extra night on the town in CHI I guess things could be worse.


Still bad for Amtrak, though. No one likes a late train, and it'll just keep feeding the beast that says Amtrak is always late, don't rely on it if you need to get somewhere on time, etc.

Amtrak either needs to push BNSF to keep them on-time or find a way to make it happen, hopefully without adding too much more time to the schedule.


----------



## montana mike

I believe anyone in the Forum can see that on the "best" days now the EB will be 1-2 hours late into CHI, and the days of consistently being on time or early in SEA are likely over as well (3 hours late getting into SEA today for example). If the EB is going to be consistently late by this amount of time they should reflect this reality and amend the schedule to at least more accurately depict the length of the journey. Looking back it has been a long time since the EB was on time arriving into CHI, a long time. They know full well that the "summer" construction season, et. al. will be major factors in these delays and these factors are not "one off" events, but continuing almost daily. Perhaps they should have a summer and winter schedule? I know this means some connections will not be made, but how does that differ from the reality of the current situation, where people book the train expecting to make a connection, then they miss it almost all of the time. There is no easy answer to this challenge.........


----------



## jebr

montana mike said:


> I believe anyone in the Forum can see that on the "best" days now the EB will be 1-2 hours late into CHI, and the days of consistently being on time or early in SEA are likely over as well (3 hours late getting into SEA today for example). If the EB is going to be consistently late by this amount of time they should reflect this reality and amend the schedule to at least more accurately depict the length of the journey. Looking back it has been a long time since the EB was on time arriving into CHI, a long time. They know full well that the "summer" construction season, et. al. will be major factors in these delays and these factors are not "one off" events, but continuing almost daily. Perhaps they should have a summer and winter schedule? I know this means some connections will not be made, but how does that differ from the reality of the current situation, where people book the train expecting to make a connection, then they miss it almost all of the time. There is no easy answer to this challenge.........


The problem is that it's very difficult to shrink a schedule's padding (or run time in general) once it's been extended. Maybe just a service announcement saying that this train is running consistently late by x amount of time, here are your options, etc. Better to set expectations a bit lower than to have angry customers, in my opinion, since there's not much Amtrak can do.


----------



## Ryan

It's also difficult to negotiate new schedules. I think that we discussed that back on like page 5 or so...


----------



## TraneMan

jebr said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe anyone in the Forum can see that on the "best" days now the EB will be 1-2 hours late into CHI, and the days of consistently being on time or early in SEA are likely over as well (3 hours late getting into SEA today for example). If the EB is going to be consistently late by this amount of time they should reflect this reality and amend the schedule to at least more accurately depict the length of the journey. Looking back it has been a long time since the EB was on time arriving into CHI, a long time. They know full well that the "summer" construction season, et. al. will be major factors in these delays and these factors are not "one off" events, but continuing almost daily. Perhaps they should have a summer and winter schedule? I know this means some connections will not be made, but how does that differ from the reality of the current situation, where people book the train expecting to make a connection, then they miss it almost all of the time. There is no easy answer to this challenge.........
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that it's very difficult to shrink a schedule's padding (or run time in general) once it's been extended. Maybe just a service announcement saying that this train is running consistently late by x amount of time, here are your options, etc. Better to set expectations a bit lower than to have angry customers, in my opinion, since there's not much Amtrak can do.
Click to expand...

Amtrak had this posted last summer for the Empire Builder about the major delays going on, and I think they did it the same thing the year before due to flooding.


----------



## AlanB

Not withstanding the recent court ruling, which may or may not stand on appeal; BNSF is going to run afoul of the PRIIA performance standards sooner, rather than later. And when that happens, they're going to have to deal with the problem and padding the schedule isn't going to be the answer.

Padding the schedule not only screws up connections, but it doesn't help anyhow. All it does is move the conflicts to new places, but the train will still be late. We learned this just over 10 years ago when Amtrak worked with CSX & UP to add 10 and 1/2 hours of padding to the full route of the Sunset Limited to help with the far worse delays that train was seeing at the time. The end result was that the delays actually got worse! Not better, but worse.

It wasn't until the economic slow down that reduced UP's traffic that things got to the point where Amtrak finally requested a new shorter schedule recently. Yes, things did improve a bit, a few years after the schedule change thanks to already declining freight volume and UP finally fixing their under-staffing issues.

But still, padding doesn't help. The train will still be late until & unless BNSF either reduces freight traffic or increases capacity on the road. And PRIIA will force their hand if they're not careful. Right now because of the work, they have an excuse. But that won't work forever.


----------



## montana mike

#8 lost over 3 hours on its trek thru ND last night! Nothing will change the cold hard facts that the construction is ongoing and the freight traffic is increasing. These are not one off events, but rather a system evolution. In my discussions with BNSF people here in MT they say that no amount of "priority routing effort" on the part of BNSF is going to put the EBs back on a footing where it is reasonably close to one time much of the time until the infrastructure that BNSF is working on is upgraded and of course the continuing increase in the energy related traffic either decreases (not at all likely) or other methods to move the petroleum are in the offing (also not likely, since no movement on the proposed pipeline is noted).

If the schedule can't be changed for whatever valid reasons, then the traveling public needs to know that arrivals along the route, and especially in CHI, which has implications for connections, will be effected and "buyer beware". I think it is disingenuous for Amtrak to sell connections for trains less than 2 hours after the "scheduled" arrival of the EB, when they know most of these connections will not be made.


----------



## gmushial

AlanB said:


> ....
> But still, padding doesn't help. The train will still be late until & unless BNSF *either reduces freight traffic or increases capacity* on the road. And PRIIA will force their hand if they're not careful. Right now because of the work, they have an excuse. But that won't work forever.


In some senses this is heartening, ie, with rail traffic up a) it means the economy is doing better and b) that with increased traffic, ie, revenue, there will be monies and motivation for the only answer that will really help: more double track/triple track.... and my guess is the EB route is probably one of the easier ones to add that capacity to [fewer tunnels, less population built right against the RR rightaways etc]... just a question of time before the obvious is executed - though have to imagine that the actual construction of new sets of rails will cause its own set of delays - but at least they'll only be temporary and after they're done will result in hopefully longterm fewer.


----------



## gmushial

montana mike said:


> #8 lost over 3 hours on its trek thru ND last night! Nothing will change the cold hard facts that the construction is ongoing and the freight traffic is increasing. These are not one off events, but rather a system evolution. In my discussions with BNSF people here in MT they say that no amount of "priority routing effort" on the part of BNSF is going to put the EBs back on a footing where it is reasonably close to one time much of the time until the infrastructure that BNSF is working on is upgraded and of course the continuing increase in the energy related traffic either decreases (not at all likely) or other methods to move the petroleum are in the offing (also not likely, since no movement on the proposed pipeline is noted). If the schedule can't be changed for whatever valid reasons, then the traveling public needs to know that arrivals along the route, and especially in CHI, which has implications for connections, will be effected and "buyer beware". I think it is disingenuous for Amtrak to sell connections for trains less than 2 hours after the "scheduled" arrival of the EB, when they know most of these connections will not be made.


Agreed. But I wonder what the resistance is to simply updating the published schedules to reflect reality - take a good statistical sample of actual arrival times, find a value/time that is a half sigma, maybe even a full sigma over the mean, and publish that. Imagine the difference in customer satisfaction when more than half the EB trains arrive 10, 20, 30 minutes "early" vs the current almost always late and the ensuing missed connections. Also, in this day of the internet, the cost of "publishing" is quite low, ie, the number of dead-tree schedules that might have to be recycled because of changes, could be very very small... personally the only Amtrak schedules I've seen, were printed on my laser printer.


----------



## PRR 60

AlanB said:


> Not withstanding the recent court ruling, which may or may not stand on appeal; BNSF is going to run afoul of the PRIIA performance standards sooner, rather than later. And when that happens, they're going to have to deal with the problem and padding the schedule isn't going to be the answer.
> Padding the schedule not only screws up connections, but it doesn't help anyhow. All it does is move the conflicts to new places, but the train will still be late. We learned this just over 10 years ago when Amtrak worked with CSX & UP to add 10 and 1/2 hours of padding to the full route of the Sunset Limited to help with the far worse delays that train was seeing at the time. The end result was that the delays actually got worse! Not better, but worse.
> 
> It wasn't until the economic slow down that reduced UP's traffic that things got to the point where Amtrak finally requested a new shorter schedule recently. Yes, things did improve a bit, a few years after the schedule change thanks to already declining freight volume and UP finally fixing their under-staffing issues.
> 
> But still, padding doesn't help. The train will still be late until & unless BNSF either reduces freight traffic or increases capacity on the road. And PRIIA will force their hand if they're not careful. Right now because of the work, they have an excuse. But that won't work forever.


Alan. The Circuit Court ruling threw out the performance standards of PRIIA. They are gone. I would not count on a successful appeal and reversal since the Supreme Court typically does not hear appeals of cases decided unanimously by the Circuit Court. The only way for specific performance standards to be enforced is if a new law is passed that allows FRA to set the standards without Amtrak veto power.

So, right now, there are no specific performance standards in the law. Amtrak's only enforcement avenue is civil action based on the "preferential treatment" requirement in the Amtrak law, and that standard can be pretty tough to legally define.


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## montana mike

Currently on the east bound #8 in MT--on time out of GNP. I see the #8 just coming into MSP this AM is 3 hours behind. Hopefully our train will have better luck thru the construction areas tonight.

Now thru Glasgow--and as has been the case for the past several weeks BNSF has slowed the EB down to 25 mph along most of the stretch between Glasgow and Wolf Point. We have gone from on time to about 20 minutes late (still not bad). No actual construction being done this Sunday, just a lot of new ties along side of the tracks.


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## montana mike

Crawling at about 20 mph behind a freight in eastern MT. The conductor says BOTH ongoing construction slow orders and very heavy freight traffic will cause us to lose considerable time (he didn't specify how much) between now and MN.


----------



## Texan Eagle

Rode the #7/#27 from CHI to PDX starting on 4th July and, maybe I got lucky, but had an amazing experience, and almost zero delay! Some highlights-

~ The train was stopped short of Minneapolis/St Paul along the river exactly as the city's 4th of July fireworks display started, and we got an awesome front-row view of the entire spectacle from the comfort of our seats/rooms. No idea if the train was stopped due to safety reasons (fireworks exploding too close) or to give passengers a view, but in either case, this was great.

~ We gathered delay through ND and were 2 hours down at Havre, MT but then managed to recover most of it and pulled into Spokane only 30 minutes late, and finally pulled into Portland bang on time at 10.10am!

~ When we were 2 hours down at Havre, we all thought we won't get to see Glacier National Park in daylight, but then BNSF came as a savior- they did some amazing section controlling and let us pass non-stop at full speed passing 3 long freight trains that were pulled over for us from Shelby MT to East Glacier Park, and beyond all the way to Whitefish MT. This let us see the beautiful stretch in late evening/twilight. Thanks BNSF!

~ The sleeping car attendant (very nice lady named Dorothy, say hi to her if you're on the EB) told that Devil's Lake in ND has water level rising due to melting glaciers and global warming, with water level now dangerously close to the tracks due to which BNSF has put permanent slow orders in that section, so EB will lose about 1-2 hours there daily. Can't confirm if this is true, just telling what she said.


----------



## jebr

Texan Eagle said:


> ~ The sleeping car attendant (very nice lady named Dorothy, say hi to her if you're on the EB) told that Devil's Lake in ND has water level rising due to melting glaciers and global warming, with water level now dangerously close to the tracks due to which BNSF has put permanent slow orders in that section, so EB will lose about 1-2 hours there daily. Can't confirm if this is true, just telling what she said.


That should have been fixed (or being fixed) with the money for repair that they spent to raise that track a year or so ago.


----------



## A historian

Was on the Builder from July 2 to 4 eastbound. Pretty much on time through Havre. Obvious a tremendous amount of tie replacement going on in Eastern Montana. That is where BNSF had derailment's last year. Lost one hour on way to Minot. 2 more hours overnight. BNSF did a tremendous job dispatching. We were rarely in the hole even with lots of freight traffic. We ended up about 2 hours late into Chicago. Conductors and attendants were superb as was the dining car crew. The problem up there is not really freight congestion from what I could see but slow order for construction. Some of it has to be the continued work raising the track in ND others the Eastern Montana work, but all good progress. 2 1/2 hours is not too bad for all thats going on up there.


----------



## OBS

Texan Eagle said:


> Rode the #7/#27 from CHI to PDX starting on 4th July and, maybe I got lucky, but had an amazing experience, and almost zero delay! Some highlights-
> ~ The train was stopped short of Minneapolis/St Paul along the river exactly as the city's 4th of July fireworks display started, and we got an awesome front-row view of the entire spectacle from the comfort of our seats/rooms. No idea if the train was stopped due to safety reasons (fireworks exploding too close) or to give passengers a view, but in either case, this was great.
> 
> ~ We gathered delay through ND and were 2 hours down at Havre, MT but then managed to recover most of it and pulled into Spokane only 30 minutes late, and finally pulled into Portland bang on time at 10.10am!
> 
> ~ When we were 2 hours down at Havre, we all thought we won't get to see Glacier National Park in daylight, but then BNSF came as a savior- they did some amazing section controlling and let us pass non-stop at full speed passing 3 long freight trains that were pulled over for us from Shelby MT to East Glacier Park, and beyond all the way to Whitefish MT. This let us see the beautiful stretch in late evening/twilight. Thanks BNSF!
> 
> ~ The sleeping car attendant (very nice lady named Dorothy, say hi to her if you're on the EB) told that Devil's Lake in ND has water level rising due to melting glaciers and global warming, with water level now dangerously close to the tracks due to which BNSF has put permanent slow orders in that section, so EB will lose about 1-2 hours there daily. Can't confirm if this is true, just telling what she said.


I think this post reflects what is important to note. Despite all the slow orders/trackwork delays going on, BNSF is still trying hard to keep the train as close to schedule as possible, and should be commended.


----------



## montana mike

Still on the Builder this AM in MN. Now over 3 hours behind schedule. :-(

Slow orders from east of Minot all the way thru Fargo, we lost over 2 hours during that stretch. No actual construction going on at that time, just crawling (around 15 mph). Had to stop several times to let freights go by and we sat for 20+ minutes on a siding to let the westbound EB go by. Likely to be at least 2 hours late into CHI today IF all goes well and they can make up some time. The conductor said BNSF has stated this will be the "norm" for the rest of the construction season--losing about 3 hours from eastern MT thru ND, then making up a modest amount of time the remainder of the journey.


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## amamba

What is better - slow orders and construction or repeated derailments? I am going to go with the slow orders and construction. Didn't they have 3+ freight derailments in that section last summer?


----------



## montana mike

Do you think the derailments were all caused by "bad" rails? I think not. The two big ones last summer had nothing to do with faulty rails. One was bad wheels on an inter model train and the other was debris.

I am all for good maintenance practices of course, but much of the delays last night were due to freight traffic--very heavy freight traffic


----------



## Train Rider

Texan Eagle said:


> Rode the #7/#27 from CHI to PDX starting on 4th July and, maybe I got lucky, but had an amazing experience, and almost zero delay! Some highlights-
> ~ The train was stopped short of Minneapolis/St Paul along the river exactly as the city's 4th of July fireworks display started, and we got an awesome front-row view of the entire spectacle from the comfort of our seats/rooms. No idea if the train was stopped due to safety reasons (fireworks exploding too close) or to give passengers a view, but in either case, this was great.
> 
> ~ The sleeping car attendant (very nice lady named Dorothy, say hi to her if you're on the EB) told that Devil's Lake in ND has water level rising due to melting glaciers and global warming, with water level now dangerously close to the tracks due to which BNSF has put permanent slow orders in that section, so EB will lose about 1-2 hours there daily. Can't confirm if this is true, just telling what she said.


I was in St Paul near downtown watching those very fireworks. You were stopped for a freight, which was passing through right when the EB was supposed to roll through that particular spot. I then saw your train pass through. It was a pretty good show!

Dorothy is all wet. Devils Lake is a closed lake basin (no exit) and is not fed by any glaciers, regardless of why they are melting. ND has always had periods of wet and dry. In fact, when western ND was settled at the turn of the twentieth century, it coincided with a wet period and folks at the time thought that if one plows the prairies the rains will come. They did for a few years and then were followed by a standard dry spell; the result is that many of those first settlers left the area.


----------



## Train Rider

montana mike said:


> Still on the Builder this AM in MN. Now over 3 hours behind schedule. :-(Slow orders from east of Minot all the way thru Fargo, we lost over 2 hours during that stretch. No actual construction going on at that time, just crawling (around 15 mph). Had to stop several times to let freights go by and we sat for 20+ minutes on a siding to let the westbound EB go by. Likely to be at least 2 hours late into CHI today IF all goes well and they can make up some time. The conductor said BNSF has stated this will be the "norm" for the rest of the construction season--losing about 3 hours from eastern MT thru ND, then making up a modest amount of time the remainder of the journey.


What have the temperatures been on some of these trips? When I took the EB last August, we were slowed in Montana due to the high heat affecting the tracks.


----------



## montana mike

Texan Eagle said:


> Rode the #7/#27 from CHI to PDX starting on 4th July and, maybe I got lucky, but had an amazing experience, and almost zero delay! Some highlights-
> ~ The train was stopped short of Minneapolis/St Paul along the river exactly as the city's 4th of July fireworks display started, and we got an awesome front-row view of the entire spectacle from the comfort of our seats/rooms. No idea if the train was stopped due to safety reasons (fireworks exploding too close) or to give passengers a view, but in either case, this was great.
> 
> ~ We gathered delay through ND and were 2 hours down at Havre, MT but then managed to recover most of it and pulled into Spokane only 30 minutes late, and finally pulled into Portland bang on time at 10.10am!
> 
> ~ When we were 2 hours down at Havre, we all thought we won't get to see Glacier National Park in daylight, but then BNSF came as a savior- they did some amazing section controlling and let us pass non-stop at full speed passing 3 long freight trains that were pulled over for us from Shelby MT to East Glacier Park, and beyond all the way to Whitefish MT. This let us see the beautiful stretch in late evening/twilight. Thanks BNSF!
> 
> ~ The sleeping car attendant (very nice lady named Dorothy, say hi to her if you're on the EB) told that Devil's Lake in ND has water level rising due to melting glaciers and global warming, with water level now dangerously close to the tracks due to which BNSF has put permanent slow orders in that section, so EB will lose about 1-2 hours there daily. Can't confirm if this is true, just telling what she said.


The Devil's Lake issue doesn't have anything to do with melting glaciers--That basin has no good outlet. The lake levels rise and fall periodically. Unfortunately for them, it has been rising slightly, but steadily for the past several years.


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## montana mike

Temps yesterday were very pleasant--70's and low 80's no heat issues at all. Finally in MSP--about 2 hours and 40 minutes behind. If no other issues I think we will roll into CHI around 6:25 this evening.


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## TraneMan

Wonder what happend to tonight's EB? #7-8

Over 4 hours late out of TOH.


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## saxman

TraneMan said:


> Wonder what happend to tonight's EB? #7-8
> Over 4 hours late out of TOH.


It lost 3 hours between MKE and CBS. Now running 4.5 hours late. Of course its the one I'm waiting on here in Essex to make my connection to the Starlight in PDX. I've pretty much already accepted the fact I'll miss that connection. Maybe I'll be on a bus from SPK? Hopefully it's only to PDX and not something like Klamath Falls. Ugh!


----------



## Texan Eagle

saxman said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what happend to tonight's EB? #7-8
> Over 4 hours late out of TOH.
> 
> 
> 
> It lost 3 hours between MKE and CBS. Now running 4.5 hours late. Of course its the one I'm waiting on here in Essex to make my connection to the Starlight in PDX. I've pretty much already accepted the fact I'll miss that connection. Maybe I'll be on a bus from SPK? Hopefully it's only to PDX and not something like Klamath Falls. Ugh!
Click to expand...

Don't lose all hope just as yet. Even if it manages to gather an hour more of delay and reach Havre, MT around 5.5 hrs late, it can cover two hours between Havre and Portland (my #7 on 5th July was 2 hrs late at Havre, reached on-time in PDX) and reach PDX around 1.30-2.00pm that would still give you your Starlight connection, with a little dash across the platform.


----------



## saxman

Texan Eagle said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what happend to tonight's EB? #7-8
> 
> Over 4 hours late out of TOH.
> 
> 
> 
> It lost 3 hours between MKE and CBS. Now running 4.5 hours late. Of course its the one I'm waiting on here in Essex to make my connection to the Starlight in PDX. I've pretty much already accepted the fact I'll miss that connection. Maybe I'll be on a bus from SPK? Hopefully it's only to PDX and not something like Klamath Falls. Ugh!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't lose all hope just as yet. Even if it manages to gather an hour more of delay and reach Havre, MT around 5.5 hrs late, it can cover two hours between Havre and Portland (my #7 on 5th July was 2 hrs late at Havre, reached on-time in PDX) and reach PDX around 1.30-2.00pm that would still give you your Starlight connection, with a little dash across the platform.
Click to expand...

Right now it's about 6 hours late between Fargo and Grand Forks. I'm not sure about the track work in ND and MT either. I did just watch #8 come through ESM right on time this morning.


----------



## jebr

saxman said:


> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what happend to tonight's EB? #7-8
> Over 4 hours late out of TOH.
> 
> 
> 
> It lost 3 hours between MKE and CBS. Now running 4.5 hours late. Of course its the one I'm waiting on here in Essex to make my connection to the Starlight in PDX. I've pretty much already accepted the fact I'll miss that connection. Maybe I'll be on a bus from SPK? Hopefully it's only to PDX and not something like Klamath Falls. Ugh!
Click to expand...

Any idea why it lost so much time? That seems to be an odd place to lose time.


----------



## TraneMan

jebr said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TraneMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what happend to tonight's EB? #7-8
> 
> Over 4 hours late out of TOH.
> 
> 
> 
> It lost 3 hours between MKE and CBS. Now running 4.5 hours late. Of course its the one I'm waiting on here in Essex to make my connection to the Starlight in PDX. I've pretty much already accepted the fact I'll miss that connection. Maybe I'll be on a bus from SPK? Hopefully it's only to PDX and not something like Klamath Falls. Ugh!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any idea why it lost so much time? That seems to be an odd place to lose time.
Click to expand...

Just read else where..

"It died in a cornfield west of Watertown."

Then, they had medical issues so it had to stay at the Dells till it was taken cared of.


----------



## Fan_Trains

I just saw on the Amtrak Status that there was a service disruption on train 7. can anybody tell me what happened?


----------



## CNW

My sister and husband are on #7. Haven't heard anything...afraid to ask. They have reservations at Glacier Park....


----------



## JayPea

Fan_Trains said:


> I just saw on the Amtrak Status that there was a service disruption on train 7. can anybody tell me what happened?



If I had to make a SWAG, I'd say that it has been determined that #7 will be so late into Spokane that it will turn there and passengers will be bussed from Spokane to Seattle and Portland and points in between. When that happens, it shows up as a service disruption.


----------



## gmushial

Those with some miles under the belt: when a LD Amtrak train suffers a "mechanical," how do those tend to break down, ie, mostly truck bearings, mostly motivation power, mostly xxxx, or just scattered all over the place? And related: and even if only a WAG and not a SWAG - how many were probably foreseeable? eg, "that bearing's starting to make noise... but it should make another roundtrip"... and it doesn't? I know nobody has the statistics (other them Amtrak management)... but is there one thing that tends to be responsible for "died in the cornfields west of xxxx" type events??


----------



## saxman

Fan_Trains said:


> I just saw on the Amtrak Status that there was a service disruption on train 7. can anybody tell me what happened?


I just spoke with Amtrak and they said #7 will continue to SPK and turn there. What stinks is that now the website won't post estimates of arrival times anymore. They said ESM at about 2-3 am, and since I already checked out I'm sitting here in the Izaak Walton without a room to at least relax in. No car either. Even when they take people off at SPK, I assume they'll have to bus connections to #11 to something like Chemult or Klamath. Wish there were a reasonable way to Whitefish, so I could just fly outa here. So my plan is to just ride an hour to Whitefish and fly to SEA or PDX early in the morning and try to catch up with the Starlight there. I wish I had boarded last nights #7. It was ONLY 1.5 hours late.


----------



## CNW

This what my sister is looking at. Crew is out of hours she says. We were born and raised in a town like this so didn't need to ride a train to see it! Somewhere near Minot ND.


----------



## saxman

Just left Minot at 6:33 PM, about 9.5 hours late.


----------



## pennyk

saxman said:


> Just left Minot at 6:33 PM, about 9.5 hours late.


Chris, you have had some bad luck lately.  I hope weather cooperates and I get to see you next week.


----------



## saxman

pennyk said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just left Minot at 6:33 PM, about 9.5 hours late.
> 
> 
> 
> Chris, you have had some bad luck lately.  I hope weather cooperates and I get to see you next week.
Click to expand...

My trip is timed perfectly to arrive into JAX on the 15th. If a connection goes awry, I'll fly to catch up!.


----------



## EB_OBS

#7 & 27 (8) will terminate in SPK. There are on-time buses as well as enough buses for all passengers on the train. There is an additional bus for Coast Starlight connections which will run to Klamath Falls, OR.


----------



## montana mike

#8 just heading into MN this AM dropped almost 4 hours last night thru the slow orders area--ouch. #8 from SEA yesterday is already just under 2 hours behind in western MT this AM. Last night's arrival in CHI was also verrry late. It looks like a grim several days for the EB. Bummer

I was on the EB on Monday and when we arrived in MKE I thought it was odd to see #7 still in the station-since we were just under 3 hours behind ourselves at that point and if #7 had been close to on time it would have been long past MKE, so things must have started unraveling even before it left MKE. Sorry to hear of all of the issues this week.


----------



## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> #7 & 27 (8) will terminate in SPK. There are on-time buses as well as enough buses for all passengers on the train. There is an additional bus for Coast Starlight connections which will run to Klamath Falls, OR.


bus from spk to k-falls. brutal


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I just got off of 8 a few hours ago, arriving 3 hrs 36 minutes late into Chicago. We were running about an hour late on Monday night, woke up Tuesday morning near Staples, MN almost 4 hours late. The conductor soon came over the intercom and said that we had been under slow orders due to a massive thunderstorm that had been raging all night. The lightning had apparently also hit some signals on the track that had to be reset, which also slowed us down.


----------



## montana mike

Even Mother Nature is conspiring against the EB this summer. Good Grief!! Nothing much one can do about the weather.

:-(


----------



## saxman

I just got off #7 in SPK today, about 11 hours late. BTW, the scenery between WFH and SPK is spectacular and I always thought the town of Sandpoint was some podunk place. It's a on a huge lake surrounded by mountains. It looks beautiful!

Anyway, I chose against the any of the bus option, and really didn't want to ride a bus between SPK and KFS. 9-10 hours I would've had. I was able to convince AGR to move my reservation back a day as I was willing to pay for a place in Seattle. They even upgraded me to a bedroom for the CS tomorrow for my inconvenience.

We were pulled by a BNSF engine too, which explains the breakdown out in Wisconsin. I was also told that it can't go as fast, so that added to the delays. I always thought they could at least do 70 mph.


----------



## AlanB

saxman said:


> We were pulled by a BNSF engine too, which explains the breakdown out in Wisconsin. I was also told that it can't go as fast, so that added to the delays. I always thought they could at least do 70 mph.


Generally most freight loco's can do 70 MPH. But that's still essentially 10 MPH slower than what an Amtrak loco can do. That slightly slower speed does add up over 2 days.


----------



## JayPea

saxman said:


> I just got off #7 in SPK today, about 11 hours late. BTW, the scenery between WFH and SPK is spectacular and I always thought the town of Sandpoint was some podunk place. It's a on a huge lake surrounded by mountains. It looks beautiful!


I have always thought it was too bad the EB's route between Whitefish and Spokane is under normal circumstances run at night. The scenery as you say is spectacular. If I didn't mind how late I was running, I'd love to be able to be on the EB as it crossed Lake Pend Oreille, the big lake at Sandpoint. Sandpoint is truly beautiful and IMHO a hidden gem of the EB's route.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

saxman said:


> Anyway, I chose against the any of the bus option, and really didn't want to ride a bus between SPK and KFS. 9-10 hours I would've had. I was able to convince AGR to move my reservation back a day as I was willing to pay for a place in Seattle. They even upgraded me to a bedroom for the CS tomorrow for my inconvenience.


I'm glad to hear they were able to accommodate you! When 8 missed the connection to the CL yesterday, we were told onboard that everyone who missed the CL or the Cardinal would be put on a bus. I was somewhat surprised to hear that, as all the stories I've heard about people missing the 8 to 30 connection ended up with passengers being put up in a hotel overnight & onto the next day's CL, or moved to the LSL if possible. We were only going to be on the CL for a few hours, but being extremely prone to motion sickness, I really didn't want to take a bus. When we got to Passenger Services, they had already moved us to a roomette on the LSL, no bus necessary. I really liked that about Amtrak - they had fixed the problem (missed connection) for us before we even had to bring it up. I don't know how many airline connections I've missed over the years, but no airline has EVER addressed/fixed/rebooked a missed connection for me, I've always had to race other passengers to the nearest agent in order to straighten things out.


----------



## tomfuller

yarrow said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> #7 & 27 (8) will terminate in SPK. There are on-time buses as well as enough buses for all passengers on the train. There is an additional bus for Coast Starlight connections which will run to Klamath Falls, OR.
> 
> 
> 
> bus from spk to k-falls. brutal
Click to expand...

At least you get to have a good meal in Bend Oregon and to see the beautiful snow capped Cascades from the east side.The CS does not leave Klamath Falls until 10 PM.

Depending on how many transfers there are they could leave them at the new building in Chemult before 8 PM.

When the Northbound CS used to run late, they ran the bus from K-Falls to Pasco to meet the Eastbound EB.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hey guys, here's the latest update on my old favourite EB:

Train 7: http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/gettrain.pl?seltrain=7&selyear=2013&selmonth=07&selday=09.

Train 8: http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/gettrain.pl?seltrain=8&selyear=2013&selmonth=07&selday=09.

Looks like 7 departed on time but lost some in Wisconsin, made it up by MSP. Then it was OK until Fargo, when the delays piled upand stablized around 2:15. The 8 departed 1:30 late but managed to hold the delays between 1:50 and 2:30 until a big delay set it back one hour between Glasgow and Wolf Point. Now it's nearly four hours late. But overall it looks like the EB situation is kinda stable compared to the 11-hour delay a few days back.


----------



## yarrow

for the past 4 weeks(checking the amtrak delays website)the eb has not once arrived in chi on time. average delay 164 min. according to montana mike's information a 2 hour delay into chi will be standard through sometimes in october. afaik, amtrak has not posted a service advisory. why not? the delays are not, generally, amtrak's fault but this is no excuse for not informing those who will be or are considering riding.


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

_Last October, my father and I took our first train trip from Portage, WI to New Orleans, LA._




_The EB was running late, so they ran a bus from MPLS to MKE and those of us going on to CHI caught the train there. As it turned out, we were still late in arriving into CHI, about 30 minutes, but since we were taking the CONO, this was fine. I am hoping that the delay issues are finished or resolved by October this year a__s we have the same tripped planned and I while the bus was fine, it is not the same as the train._


----------



## WiCruiseDreamer

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Hey guys, here's the latest update on my old favourite EB:Train 7: http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/gettrain.pl?seltrain=7&selyear=2013&selmonth=07&selday=09.
> 
> Train 8: http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/gettrain.pl?seltrain=8&selyear=2013&selmonth=07&selday=09.
> 
> Looks like 7 departed on time but lost some in Wisconsin, made it up by MSP. Then it was OK until Fargo, when the delays piled upand stablized around 2:15. The 8 departed 1:30 late but managed to hold the delays between 1:50 and 2:30 until a big delay set it back one hour between Glasgow and Wolf Point. Now it's nearly four hours late. But overall it looks like the EB situation is kinda stable compared to the 11-hour delay a few days back.


_Sorry for going off topic, but the pic of the Greyhound bus brings a smile to my face. My dad worked for Greyhound for over 20 years._


----------



## montana mike

Looks like todays #8 to CHI will arrive just under 5 hours behind schedule!!! Ouch No one would make any connections with that kind of performance. Anyone know what happened? I didn't see any whether delays. I asked my BNSF contact for any updates on their maintenance efforts and he said if anything it will likely get a bit worse, since they are ramping up a couple additional projects in MT and ND. I agree Amtrak should at least put out something to alert EB riders, especially into CHI town, that significant delays are possible due to extensive track work and heavy freight track.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Looks like todays #8 to CHI will arrive just under 5 hours behind schedule!!! Ouch No one would make any connections with that kind of performance. Anyone know what happened? I didn't see any whether delays. I asked my BNSF contact for any updates on their maintenance efforts and he said if anything it will likely get a bit worse, since they are ramping up a couple additional projects in MT and ND. I agree Amtrak should at least put out something to alert EB riders, especially into CHI town, that significant delays are possible due to extensive track work and heavy freight track.


Do you know what kind of maintainence they are doing. I'm not sure why the EB route has so much track work compared to other routes. All I can assume is the very heavy usage by oil trains.

Look like the eastbound EB Train 8 of 10 July suffered a serivce disruption. There's no status of it that I can find. Anybody know what happened?



WiCruiseDreamer said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys, here's the latest update on my old favourite EB:Train 7: http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/gettrain.pl?seltrain=7&selyear=2013&selmonth=07&selday=09.
> 
> Train 8: http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/gettrain.pl?seltrain=8&selyear=2013&selmonth=07&selday=09.
> 
> Looks like 7 departed on time but lost some in Wisconsin, made it up by MSP. Then it was OK until Fargo, when the delays piled upand stablized around 2:15. The 8 departed 1:30 late but managed to hold the delays between 1:50 and 2:30 until a big delay set it back one hour between Glasgow and Wolf Point. Now it's nearly four hours late. But overall it looks like the EB situation is kinda stable compared to the 11-hour delay a few days back.
> 
> 
> 
> _Sorry for going off topic, but the pic of the Greyhound bus brings a smile to my face. My dad worked for Greyhound for over 20 years._
Click to expand...

Care to tell his name?


----------



## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Look like the eastbound EB Train 8 of 10 July suffered a serivce disruption. There's no status of it that I can find. Anybody know what happened?


Most likely it started in Spokane, not Seattle. Thus a "service disruption" and no one knows where it is (via automated means.)


----------



## montana mike

Both track replacement and bed upgrades, but BNSF does this all of the time and ANY regular maintenance program will have these types of items built into their yearly schedule, and one would think AMTRAK schedules would accountant for this when they built their schedules for the EB. But the increase in freight traffic, along with BNSF perhaps playing catch up in some areas is just taking a huge toll on the Empire Builder performance this summer. Since the construction will continue thru October and the freight increases are more or less year around I don't see a lot of relief next winter, better hopefully than what we are seeing now (eg. over 5 hours late into CHI yesterday!!), but still chronically late. Frustrating for a train that used to be one of the best in on time performance. C'est La Vie'


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Both track replacement and bed upgrades, but BNSF does this all of the time and ANY regular maintenance program will have these types of items built into their yearly schedule, and one would think AMTRAK schedules would accountant for this when they built their schedules for the EB. But the increase in freight traffic, along with BNSF perhaps playing catch up in some areas is just taking a huge toll on the Empire Builder performance this summer. Since the construction will continue thru October and the freight increases are more or less year around I don't see a lot of relief next winter, better hopefully than what we are seeing now (eg. over 5 hours late into CHI yesterday!!), but still chronically late. Frustrating for a train that used to be one of the best in on time performance. C'est La Vie'


Argh, can't Amtrak just give the EB timetable a seasonal makeover? I'm not confidant that more padding would help, but at least more travel time to account for lower speeds.



jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look like the eastbound EB Train 8 of 10 July suffered a serivce disruption. There's no status of it that I can find. Anybody know what happened?
> 
> 
> 
> Most likely it started in Spokane, not Seattle. Thus a "service disruption" and no one knows where it is (via automated means.)
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining. If anyone knows its status, please post it so we can know how bad things are going with a SPK departure.


----------



## JayPea

It got into Chicago 5 hrs and a handful of minutes late.


----------



## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Argh, can't Amtrak just give the EB timetable a seasonal makeover? I'm not confidant that more padding would help, but at least more travel time to account for lower speeds.


 Because they have a contract with BNSF to run that train on time. If BSNF can't do that, then they need to pull a few of their freight trains off the line until such time as they can properly accommodate Amtrak.


----------



## Rail Freak

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Argh, can't Amtrak just give the EB timetable a seasonal makeover? I'm not confidant that more padding would help, but at least more travel time to account for lower speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they have a contract with BNSF to run that train on time. If BSNF can't do that, then they need to pull a few of their freight trains off the line until such time as they can properly accommodate Amtrak.
Click to expand...

When do you anticipate them considering that?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

JayPea said:


> It got into Chicago 5 hrs and a handful of minutes late.


Looks like the SPK departures aren't even pecking off the delays.



AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Argh, can't Amtrak just give the EB timetable a seasonal makeover? I'm not confidant that more padding would help, but at least more travel time to account for lower speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they have a contract with BNSF to run that train on time. If BSNF can't do that, then they need to pull a few of their freight trains off the line until such time as they can properly accommodate Amtrak.
Click to expand...

What are the chances of Amtrak making a new seasonal contract with BNSF. The delays aren't going away anytime soon.


----------



## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Argh, can't Amtrak just give the EB timetable a seasonal makeover? I'm not confidant that more padding would help, but at least more travel time to account for lower speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they have a contract with BNSF to run that train on time. If BSNF can't do that, then they need to pull a few of their freight trains off the line until such time as they can properly accommodate Amtrak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What are the chances of Amtrak making a new seasonal contract with BNSF. The delays aren't going away anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Amtrak doesn't want to do that. Doing so means breaking connections. Broken connections mean fewer tickets sold.


----------



## gmushial

AlanB said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Argh, can't Amtrak just give the EB timetable a seasonal makeover? I'm not confidant that more padding would help, but at least more travel time to account for lower speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they have a contract with BNSF to run that train on time. If BSNF can't do that, then they need to pull a few of their freight trains off the line until such time as they can properly accommodate Amtrak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What are the chances of Amtrak making a new seasonal contract with BNSF. The delays aren't going away anytime soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak doesn't want to do that. Doing so means breaking connections. Broken connections mean fewer tickets sold.
Click to expand...

Alan - what's more offensive to the potential ticket buying public: connections which are lost in theory, ie, the published schedule indicates they are not possible (but represents reality w/re actual train arrivals); or actual missed connections, which were sold as theoretical connections, promised connections, which are then missed? I think in one case one may (fraudulently) sell a ticket involving connections which in fact won't be made - leaving the customer dissatisfied and willing to badmouth Amtrak. In the other case the schedule merely looks inconvenient, but those which buy tickets will more than likely make the promised connections. In one case Amtrak promises that which it can't deliver; in the other case it can only appear to improve on an inconvenient schedule over time. I know in my business I would always rather under-promise and then appear to over-deliver vs over-promise and fail to deliver - in one case I have a customer which likely won't come back and potentially will poison the well for other customers; in the other case I can appear to be trying and improving. I think that's what updating the schedule to reflect reality comes to.


----------



## crescent2

But once given up, it's difficult to ever get the old schedule back from the host. Apparently at least part of the problems are seasonal, so why would Amtrak want to bind itself to being permanently "late" (according to the old schedule) even during those times it could be on time?

If Amtrak had control of the rail line, changing the EB timetable back and forth would be easier. But they don't.

They do need to make passengers aware of the fact that currently the connections with the EB probably will not be made, however. Realistic expectations are a desirable thing. I don't have a solution, but I do understand why they don't just change the timetable to reflect the current delays.


----------



## montana mike

The recent pattern of somewhat shorter delays over the weekend continues-with yesterday's #8 about 2 hours late and today's projected to be under two hours as well. Less than 2 hours late allows a connecting passenger to have a reasonable shot at #30 going east. The weekday performance (tues thru fri) remains a question though with 3-5 hour late arrivals still more common. The suspension of track work for the winter (Nov thru April) will help somewhat for all EBs, but the increase in energy related traffic and more and more intermodal trains are here to stay. Perhaps we will get a good handle on how much these factors contribute to the arrival delays into Chi during this timeframe. I guess as long as Amtrak is willing to underwrite the costs to put people up overnight in Chicago for missed connections the current schedule will remain in place. Does anyone know how much this costs Amtrak?

PS--Somewhat troubling is the recent arrival performance into SEA (that is when the trains aren't turned in SPK). Today's for example is currently running well over 2 hours behind in WA. In the past the westbound EBs seemed to perform somewhat better than the eastbound ones.


----------



## scoostraw

I haven't booked yet, but in a couple of weeks I plan to ride #8 from WDL, connecting to the LSL @ Chicago. That gives me over 5 hours leeway. Does Amtrak always make sure at least the LSL connection is made? I'll be bummed of course if I have to ride a bus, but I'd rather do that than have to spend the night in Chicago.


----------



## Rail Freak

scoostraw said:


> I'll be bummed of course if I have to ride a bus, but I'd rather do that than have to spend the night in Chicago.


Really, & why is that?


----------



## Ryan

Rail Freak said:


> scoostraw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be bummed of course if I have to ride a bus, but I'd rather do that than have to spend the night in Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, & why is that?
Click to expand...

I'm going to guess that it has something to do with people's desire to get to their destination in a somewhat timely manner?

Arriving 24 hours later because of an overnight in Chicago doesn't really help that to happen.

You've got your best bet at making the LSL connection - what time of year are you traveling?


----------



## montana mike

It would appear that the LSL connection has only been missed a few times in the past couple months, so that connection looks like the best bet!


----------



## Rail Freak

Ryan said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scoostraw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be bummed of course if I have to ride a bus, but I'd rather do that than have to spend the night in Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, & why is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm going to guess that it has something to do with people's desire to get to their destination in a somewhat timely manner?
> 
> Thanx for your guess, I'll file that!
Click to expand...


----------



## scoostraw

Ryan said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scoostraw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be bummed of course if I have to ride a bus, but I'd rather do that than have to spend the night in Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, & why is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm going to guess that it has something to do with people's desire to get to their destination in a somewhat timely manner?
> 
> Arriving 24 hours later because of an overnight in Chicago doesn't really help that to happen.
> 
> You've got your best bet at making the LSL connection - what time of year are you traveling?
Click to expand...

Because I have plans at my destination. Meeting people for a business transaction etc. Hope to travel in a couple of weeks.


----------



## scoostraw

montana mike said:


> It would appear that the LSL connection has only been missed a few times in the past couple months, so that connection looks like the best bet!


I'm guessing it would have been missed by passengers who originated west of MSP, correct? Since I'll be boarding at WDL, won't I be guaranteed to make the LSL since I'd be bustituted to MKE and then Hiawatha'd to CHI if #8 is too late to make it otherwise?


----------



## Ryan

More than likely. Next few weeks are going to be dicey.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

gmushial said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Argh, can't Amtrak just give the EB timetable a seasonal makeover? I'm not confidant that more padding would help, but at least more travel time to account for lower speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they have a contract with BNSF to run that train on time. If BSNF can't do that, then they need to pull a few of their freight trains off the line until such time as they can properly accommodate Amtrak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What are the chances of Amtrak making a new seasonal contract with BNSF. The delays aren't going away anytime soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak doesn't want to do that. Doing so means breaking connections. Broken connections mean fewer tickets sold.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Alan - what's more offensive to the potential ticket buying public: connections which are lost in theory, ie, the published schedule indicates they are not possible (but represents reality w/re actual train arrivals); or actual missed connections, which were sold as theoretical connections, promised connections, which are then missed? I think in one case one may (fraudulently) sell a ticket involving connections which in fact won't be made - leaving the customer dissatisfied and willing to badmouth Amtrak. In the other case the schedule merely looks inconvenient, but those which buy tickets will more than likely make the promised connections. In one case Amtrak promises that which it can't deliver; in the other case it can only appear to improve on an inconvenient schedule over time. I know in my business I would always rather under-promise and then appear to over-deliver vs over-promise and fail to deliver - in one case I have a customer which likely won't come back and potentially will poison the well for other customers; in the other case I can appear to be trying and improving. I think that's what updating the schedule to reflect reality comes to.
Click to expand...

That's what the airlines are doing. They add lots of extra time to their schedules to improve OTP, resulting in most planes arriving early.



crescent2 said:


> But once given up, it's difficult to ever get the old schedule back from the host. Apparently at least part of the problems are seasonal, so why would Amtrak want to bind itself to being permanently "late" (according to the old schedule) even during those times it could be on time?
> If Amtrak had control of the rail line, changing the EB timetable back and forth would be easier. But they don't.
> 
> They do need to make passengers aware of the fact that currently the connections with the EB probably will not be made, however. Realistic expectations are a desirable thing. I don't have a solution, but I do understand why they don't just change the timetable to reflect the current delays.


That makes sense. I guess the EB is just stuck for now. Hopefully, the BNSF will reach a point when they don't have enough maintanece to constantly hold up the EB.



Ryan said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scoostraw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be bummed of course if I have to ride a bus, but I'd rather do that than have to spend the night in Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, & why is that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm going to guess that it has something to do with people's desire to get to their destination in a somewhat timely manner?
> 
> Arriving 24 hours later because of an overnight in Chicago doesn't really help that to happen.
> 
> You've got your best bet at making the LSL connection - what time of year are you traveling?
Click to expand...

I'd be willing to ride a bus for a _bus fare_, but not if I'm paying for a Sleeper Roomette and especially not if I have to ride a cramped 57-seat chartered Van Hool!


----------



## montana mike

The BNSF has a 5 year maintenance plan (newly initiated last year) which, according to my BNSF friends, has about the same amount of "activity" each year, with even a slight uptick in construction efforts during the last couple years. Any long term plan has almost continuous maintenance efforts to be effective I would imagine. Considering we are looking at thousands of miles of track, after 5 years they would almost surely need to be looking at working on the track/beds they tackled in year one!!! It's just like our interstate highways, they are constantly "under construction" at any given location.


----------



## calwatch

At San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee, a BNSF rep mentioned they asked Amtrak to change the schedule during the summer to account for track work and add padding but Amtrak refused. If that was the case on the San Joaquin I would assume it was the case on the EB as well. With the track speed restrictions after new track or ballast is laid there will always be schedule issues.


----------



## AlanB

calwatch said:


> At San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee, a BNSF rep mentioned they asked Amtrak to change the schedule during the summer to account for track work and add padding but Amtrak refused. If that was the case on the San Joaquin I would assume it was the case on the EB as well. With the track speed restrictions after new track or ballast is laid there will always be schedule issues.


That would be a good assumption to make. Amtrak doesn't control the schedules for the SJ's, Caltrans controls the schedules. Only Amtrak has a say in the EB's schedule beyond the host RR's. Makes for a world of difference.

That said, I'm sure Amtrak doesn't want to change things; again because it breaks the connections.


----------



## montana mike

A few notes from my current trip on #7 plugging thru ND now:

1. we are only 45 minutes behind after running thru the construction gauntlet in ND. We likely were the beneficiaries of no active work being done on a Sunday night. Some of the delay was due to slow orders due to very wet conditions in western MN after heavy rains.

2. I see #8 in MN this AM lost over 4 hours as it made its way thru MT and ND last evening and night--ouch! Not looking good for connections for this train.

3. It appears the work to raise the tracks around Devils Lake is complete. The speed restrictions remain however. We chugged along at around 25 mph thru this entire section. But I think it has always been slow thru here, so we only lost about 15-20 minutes thru this area.

4. The crew-attendants and conductors-are well aware of the EB's scheduling challenges into CHI. They say the number of missed connections has been very high, similar to last summer. And with full trains some have not been able to be accommodated on the following day. That would be a real bummer for me.

5. I have definitely noticed more energy (tanker) trains. although, so far we have only had two times where we had to wait for these to go by. They are lonnnnnnng trains! Currently stopped east of Stanley as we let two freights go by.

All in all could be worse!!


----------



## Ryan

AlanB said:


> calwatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> At San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee, a BNSF rep mentioned they asked Amtrak to change the schedule during the summer to account for track work and add padding but Amtrak refused. If that was the case on the San Joaquin I would assume it was the case on the EB as well. With the track speed restrictions after new track or ballast is laid there will always be schedule issues.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a good assumption to make. Amtrak doesn't control the schedules for the SJ's, Caltrans controls the schedules. Only Amtrak has a say in the EB's schedule beyond the host RR's. Makes for a world of difference.
> 
> That said, I'm sure Amtrak doesn't want to change things; again because it breaks the connections.
Click to expand...

That would NOT be a good assumption to make? Think you left out the "not"...


----------



## AlanB

Ryan said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calwatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> At San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee, a BNSF rep mentioned they asked Amtrak to change the schedule during the summer to account for track work and add padding but Amtrak refused. If that was the case on the San Joaquin I would assume it was the case on the EB as well. With the track speed restrictions after new track or ballast is laid there will always be schedule issues.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a good assumption to make. Amtrak doesn't control the schedules for the SJ's, Caltrans controls the schedules. Only Amtrak has a say in the EB's schedule beyond the host RR's. Makes for a world of difference.That said, I'm sure Amtrak doesn't want to change things; again because it breaks the connections.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That would NOT be a good assumption to make? Think you left out the "not"...
Click to expand...

Yup, the fortunes of typing on a train. It is not a good assumption.


----------



## montana mike

Update to my enroute report--hit the slow orders in eastern MT--poking along at about 25 mph most of the time now. Rats. Supposed to speed up shortly, but we likely have lost another 30 minutes. Now about 90 minutes behind.


----------



## Nathanael

calwatch said:


> At San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee, a BNSF rep mentioned they asked Amtrak to change the schedule during the summer to account for track work and add padding but Amtrak refused.


Amtrak is not about to alienate the State of California, who funds the San Joaquins and has been trying to make them faster, by acquiescing to BNSF requests to run slower schedules. This wouldn't generalize to the Empire Builder.


----------



## Texan Eagle

montana mike said:


> Update to my enroute report--hit the slow orders in eastern MT--poking along at about 25 mph most of the time now. Rats. Supposed to speed up shortly, but we likely have lost another 30 minutes. Now about 90 minutes behind.


Check out what time you reach Havre. I have been following #7's progress since about a month and have figured out that the delay at Havre is more or less a good estimate of how late it will reach SEA and PDX, the formula is *delay at Havre minus two hours*. If #7 is 2 hours or less down in Havre, it will arrive on time, if it is down 3 hours down in Havre, it will reach PDX and SEA about 1 hour late and so on...


----------



## montana mike

So far we have been under slow orders for all but a few miles since entering MT. Now approaching two hours behind and the conductor says we have at least another hour or so of poking along at a whopping 25 mph. Other than one brief moment close to Wolf Point I see little evidence of any active construction, but I do know that recently upgraded tracks do need a "setting in" period, so that is likely the cause of our slow speed . There have been several huge piles of new ties at several points, but no BNSF employees actually replacing ties that we have seen Arrrrrgh

Given the fact that #8 will likely arrive about 4 hours late in CHI today had similar slow orders last night I think we are in for a long and slow PM for today's #7 as it traverses west thru MT.

I know this work needs to be done, just painful to craw along as we go thru the wide open prairies.


----------



## montana mike

Texan Eagle said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Update to my enroute report--hit the slow orders in eastern MT--poking along at about 25 mph most of the time now. Rats. Supposed to speed up shortly, but we likely have lost another 30 minutes. Now about 90 minutes behind.
> 
> 
> 
> Check out what time you reach Havre. I have been following #7's progress since about a month and have figured out that the delay at Havre is more or less a good estimate of how late it will reach SEA and PDX, the formula is *delay at Havre minus two hours*. If #7 is 2 hours or less down in Havre, it will arrive on time, if it is down 3 hours down in Havre, it will reach PDX and SEA about 1 hour late and so on...
Click to expand...

Pulling into Havre about 2 hours down now, so I guess this means, IF #7 doesn't lose any more time the train will be close to on time in SEA and PDX. Unfortunately, I get off in WFH, I think I will be about 90 minutes or more late getting in there. Still better than the 2 AM arrival a few months back.

)


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> The BNSF has a 5 year maintenance plan (newly initiated last year) which, according to my BNSF friends, has about the same amount of "activity" each year, with even a slight uptick in construction efforts during the last couple years. Any long term plan has almost continuous maintenance efforts to be effective I would imagine. Considering we are looking at thousands of miles of track, after 5 years they would almost surely need to be looking at working on the track/beds they tackled in year one!!! It's just like our interstate highways, they are constantly "under construction" at any given location.


That's not good. Do you mean that the Northern Transcon will be constantly under repair for four years (last year took out one) then they will have to do it all over again? On the same line? I wonder why the EB was so on-time before if the BNSF does this all the time.


----------



## montana mike

Not privy to their plans, other than the local BNSF folks saying there is "substantial" track maintenance and improvement effort on their docket for the next four years, that is one reason why they have been hiring a lot of people in MT. I honestly don't know if they are catching up or just trying to anticipate the extra wear and tear from the increased traffic on this line. SInce most of the hi-line is single track there is quite a bit of "wear and tear. I know BNSF has made a big effort in the pass 2 years to replace a good part of the ties over the Marias Pass with concrete ties, which in theory, should hold up well under the harsh winter conditions--we shall see.

BTW--Just left Cut Bank--made up about 20 minutes of the delay so far. While there have been quite a few freights it appears BNSF is trying hard to minimize the EB delays by placing them on sidings and letting us go thru.


----------



## crescent2

from Swadian:

"I'd be willing to ride a bus for a _bus fare_, but not if I'm paying for a Sleeper Roomette and especially not if I have to ride a cramped 57-seat chartered Van Hool!"

My feelings exactly, except I don't know a Van Hool from a hoot owl.

Yes, I know Amtrak can't help it, but I still don't want to ride a bus when I'm booked on a train!


----------



## montana mike

#8 dropped 5 hours running the construction gauntlet last night--double ouch. Another day of missed connections. Week days are especially problematic it would appear.


----------



## Texan Eagle

montana mike said:


> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Update to my enroute report--hit the slow orders in eastern MT--poking along at about 25 mph most of the time now. Rats. Supposed to speed up shortly, but we likely have lost another 30 minutes. Now about 90 minutes behind.
> 
> 
> 
> Check out what time you reach Havre. I have been following #7's progress since about a month and have figured out that the delay at Havre is more or less a good estimate of how late it will reach SEA and PDX, the formula is *delay at Havre minus two hours*. If #7 is 2 hours or less down in Havre, it will arrive on time, if it is down 3 hours down in Havre, it will reach PDX and SEA about 1 hour late and so on...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pulling into Havre about 2 hours down now, so I guess this means, IF #7 doesn't lose any more time the train will be close to on time in SEA and PDX. Unfortunately, I get off in WFH, I think I will be about 90 minutes or more late getting in there. Still better than the 2 AM arrival a few months back.
> 
> )
Click to expand...

As predicted, your EB that was ~2 hours down in Havre has reached SEA 22 minutes *early* and its other portion has reached PDX 3 minutes *early*.

My theory of *Havre minus two hours* stands for today


----------



## montana mike

A testimony to the padding AMTRAK has been able to build into the schedule west of Whitefish!! Any thoughts on eastbound? #8 still in MN now is over 5 hours behind. Bummer


----------



## Texan Eagle

montana mike said:


> A testimony to the padding AMTRAK has been able to build into the schedule west of Whitefish!! Any thoughts on eastbound? #8 still in MN now is over 5 hours behind. Bummer


Eastbound is a trainwreck (pun unintended). There seems to be no rhyme or reason how much it gets delayed. For the westbound, I took the trip on 4th July so was monitoring the train for about a month and almost everytime I saw it manages to recover about two hours between Havre and SEA/PDX

#7 of 13 July: 1 hr 45 min down in Havre, 43 min early in SEA

#7 of 11 July: 4 hr 1 min down in Havre, 1 hr 43 min down in SEA

#7 of 10 July: 2 hr 27 min down in Havre, 48 min down in SEA


----------



## JayPea

Texan Eagle said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> A testimony to the padding AMTRAK has been able to build into the schedule west of Whitefish!! Any thoughts on eastbound? #8 still in MN now is over 5 hours behind. Bummer
> 
> 
> 
> Eastbound is a trainwreck (pun unintended). There seems to be no rhyme or reason how much it gets delayed. For the westbound, I took the trip on 4th July so was monitoring the train for about a month and almost everytime I saw it manages to recover about two hours between Havre and SEA/PDX
> 
> #7 of 13 July: 1 hr 45 min down in Havre, 43 min early in SEA
> 
> #7 of 11 July: 4 hr 1 min down in Havre, 1 hr 43 min down in SEA
> 
> #7 of 10 July: 2 hr 27 min down in Havre, 48 min down in SEA
Click to expand...


I rode #27 from Spokane to Portland on the 27th of June. I, like Texan Eagle, had begun monitoring the progress of 7/27 in advance of my trip. And I noticed too the 2 hrs it usually recovers between Havre and Seattle/Portland. In my case, though, I did even better than that. The EB I rode on, the EB of the 25th, was 4 hrs, 40 minutes late at Havre. It pulled into Spokane 2 hrs, 50 minutes late, left Spokane 2 hrs and 30 minutes late, and got into Portland 2 hrs late, recovering a whopping 2 hrs and 40 minutes of time. There certainly is much to be said for padding!


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> A testimony to the padding AMTRAK has been able to build into the schedule west of Whitefish!! Any thoughts on eastbound? #8 still in MN now is over 5 hours behind. Bummer


afaik, there is very little padding eastbound between msp and chi


----------



## Donna

I'll be riding EB to Spokane, then back to Chicago 5 days later....both weekdays. I haven't read every single reply here, but am I to believe that chances of getting in to Spokane at 1:40a.m. are pretty slim? If we're running 2 hours behind at this stage, will the attendants in the sleeper cars wake us at the appropriate time before actual arrival? Regarding the trip back to CHI, I've booked a hotel for that night, as it sounds like a certainty that I'd miss the Illini connection south. I understand the frustration is a result of the published times vs. actual arrival times - and not everyone wants or can stay over in CHI. Let's hope things get better in ND and Montana. Another question.....is the EB historically late arriving in Spokane for the trip back to CHI? It's scheduled to leave SPK at 1:30. Are the delays only later in the return route, or between Seattle and Spokane, too? Thanks in advance.


----------



## yarrow

the esatbound eb generally departs spokane on time. yes, a conductor or attendant should wake you up 20-30 minutes before arrival whenever that may be


----------



## Donna

Thanks! Good info. to know.


----------



## Samantha

Could anyone point me in the direction of info on people's experiences with missed connections? I'm sorry to be a pain but this will be my first time traveling on Amtrak and doing it alone, at that. I'm taking the eastbound EB into Chicago on my way home and super concerned about what will happen if connection is missed. Tried googling but not having much luck finding recent, relevant info. Thanks!


----------



## Texan Eagle

yarrow said:


> the esatbound eb generally departs spokane on time. yes, a conductor or attendant should wake you up 20-30 minutes before arrival whenever that may be


The westbound EB I was on was running about an hour behind schedule when I decided to retire for the night after Whitefish and the very nice sleeper attendant woke me up about 20-25 minutes before pulling into Spokane. I think they have some sort of landmark set up and they decide to wake up passengers when they pass that point.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> #8 dropped 5 hours running the construction gauntlet last night--double ouch. Another day of missed connections. Week days are especially problematic it would appear.


Looks like the situation isn't getting any better.



Texan Eagle said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texan Eagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Update to my enroute report--hit the slow orders in eastern MT--poking along at about 25 mph most of the time now. Rats. Supposed to speed up shortly, but we likely have lost another 30 minutes. Now about 90 minutes behind.
> 
> 
> 
> Check out what time you reach Havre. I have been following #7's progress since about a month and have figured out that the delay at Havre is more or less a good estimate of how late it will reach SEA and PDX, the formula is *delay at Havre minus two hours*. If #7 is 2 hours or less down in Havre, it will arrive on time, if it is down 3 hours down in Havre, it will reach PDX and SEA about 1 hour late and so on...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pulling into Havre about 2 hours down now, so I guess this means, IF #7 doesn't lose any more time the train will be close to on time in SEA and PDX. Unfortunately, I get off in WFH, I think I will be about 90 minutes or more late getting in there. Still better than the 2 AM arrival a few months back.
> 
> )
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As predicted, your EB that was ~2 hours down in Havre has reached SEA 22 minutes *early* and its other portion has reached PDX 3 minutes *early*.
> 
> My theory of *Havre minus two hours* stands for today
Click to expand...

Hah! The westbound EB has got the padding of a Double Quarter Pounder!



Samantha said:


> Could anyone point me in the direction of info on people's experiences with missed connections? I'm sorry to be a pain but this will be my first time traveling on Amtrak and doing it alone, at that. I'm taking the eastbound EB into Chicago on my way home and super concerned about what will happen if connection is missed. Tried googling but not having much luck finding recent, relevant info. Thanks!


Basically, there's three things that could happen:

1. They catch you up to your connection with a chartered bus.

2. You miss your connection and they get a hotel room for you at Amtrak's expense.

3. You're told to get on a emergency chartered bus all the way to your destination.


----------



## yarrow

Samantha said:


> Could anyone point me in the direction of info on people's experiences with missed connections? I'm sorry to be a pain but this will be my first time traveling on Amtrak and doing it alone, at that. I'm taking the eastbound EB into Chicago on my way home and super concerned about what will happen if connection is missed. Tried googling but not having much luck finding recent, relevant info. Thanks!


what train are you connecting with and what is your destination? connections leaving later in the evening are often ok but anything from the capital limited, which leaves shortly after 6pm, and earlier have been iffy the past 6 weeks or so and look to continue as such


----------



## Samantha

Connecting with #30 Capitol Limited to WAS, then #99 to RVR (final destination). I'm definitely gathering there is a good chance I'll be late into Chicago. Really should have looked more into and researched Amtrak before I set the whole trip up. Due to be back at work no exceptions the day after my scheduled arrival. I'm an idiot.


----------



## Ryan

Don't be too hard on yourself. When are you traveling? What day of the week? Some days seem to be working out better than others...


----------



## jebr

Samantha said:


> Connecting with #30 Capitol Limited to WAS, then #99 to RVR (final destination). I'm definitely gathering there is a good chance I'll be late into Chicago. Really should have looked more into and researched Amtrak before I set the whole trip up. Due to be back at work no exceptions the day after my scheduled arrival. I'm an idiot.


They should be able to get you at least as far as Washington, DC by the end of the day if the Lake Shore Limited connection is made, as they can put you on the LSL to a regional train.

Also, if you have a late work schedule (or if even a half-day would work,) the LSL to the overnight Northeast Regional would arrive in Richmond around 9:45 AM.

There'd also be enough buffer where you should be able to stay overnight and fly the rest of the way. Amtrak wouldn't reimburse the air travel, but they should be able to refund the connections you didn't make. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Texan Eagle

Samantha said:


> Connecting with #30 Capitol Limited to WAS, then #99 to RVR (final destination). I'm definitely gathering there is a good chance I'll be late into Chicago. Really should have looked more into and researched Amtrak before I set the whole trip up. Due to be back at work no exceptions the day after my scheduled arrival. I'm an idiot.


If you really absolutely need to be at work the day after, you might want to consider doing the Chicago-DC leg on a flight. I checked random 5-6 days in August and I see almost everyday ORD-DCA flights are available for ~$100. Get a late night flight from chicago on day of your EB arrival and you'll be in WAS ahead of the game.


----------



## Samantha

Ryan said:


> Don't be too hard on yourself. When are you traveling? What day of the week? Some days seem to be working out better than others...


Traveling on a Friday and Saturday in August



Texan Eagle said:


> Samantha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Connecting with #30 Capitol Limited to WAS, then #99 to RVR (final destination). I'm definitely gathering there is a good chance I'll be late into Chicago. Really should have looked more into and researched Amtrak before I set the whole trip up. Due to be back at work no exceptions the day after my scheduled arrival. I'm an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> If you really absolutely need to be at work the day after, you might want to consider doing the Chicago-DC leg on a flight. I checked random 5-6 days in August and I see almost everyday ORD-DCA flights are available for ~$100. Get a late night flight from chicago on day of your EB arrival and you'll be in WAS ahead of the game.
Click to expand...




jebr said:


> Samantha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Connecting with #30 Capitol Limited to WAS, then #99 to RVR (final destination). I'm definitely gathering there is a good chance I'll be late into Chicago. Really should have looked more into and researched Amtrak before I set the whole trip up. Due to be back at work no exceptions the day after my scheduled arrival. I'm an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> They should be able to get you at least as far as Washington, DC by the end of the day if the Lake Shore Limited connection is made, as they can put you on the LSL to a regional train.
> 
> Also, if you have a late work schedule (or if even a half-day would work,) the LSL to the overnight Northeast Regional would arrive in Richmond around 9:45 AM.
> 
> There'd also be enough buffer where you should be able to stay overnight and fly the rest of the way. Amtrak wouldn't reimburse the air travel, but they should be able to refund the connections you didn't make. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...


All very good information. Thanks so much. I don't fly which is why I'm going by train! lol Ah, well. The worst that happens is I'm a day late to work and they fire me. Could be a blessing provided by Amtrak.


----------



## amamba

Samantha, if you are super worried, you could consider changing your connection to the LSL to NYP with a connection to the 67 to RVR. Good luck.


----------



## NW cannonball

Wondering -- when #8 is more than 2hrs late at MSP How many passengers are going thru to Chicago and will miss eastbound connections?

Passengers from MSP to CHI are routinely bustituted and make their connections.

Pax from points west may have MSP or other points west as destination and may have problems connecting to air at MSP or Fargo (from oilfields and don't want to pay the huge airfare from there and book AMTK to MSP or Fargo and reasonable airfare from there.

And the many Amish from Montana to Wisconsin whom the delays doesn't significantly affect.

Trying to figure - what fraction of #8 eastbound passengers over whole route are actually making connections in Chicago?

It's one of the selling points that the EB provides local transit all through Eastern Washington Montana and Nodak. None of whom are forced to do an unscheduled layover in Chicago. Inconvenienced -- yes. Trip broken -- no.

Is there any estimate of what fraction of EB eastbound passengers are seriously (connections) affected by lateness from Western points to Chicago?


----------



## Ispolkom

I'm usually in the Portland sleeper, and I don't see many coach seat checks for CHI until we get to St. Paul. Sleeper, I don't know, but when I was on a very late train in January half of the two dozen sleeper passengers left the train in St. Paul, and of the people heading east, four I think had connections. The proportion may be higher in the summer, for all I know.


----------



## yarrow

how long does it take from msp-chi by bus? i think it's 8 hours by train. would a bus bridge allow connection to be made reliably? be expensive for amtrak to just bus connecting passengers but the missed connection have to be costing them now. maybe a van would do the job instead of a full sized bus


----------



## MrFSS

yarrow said:


> how long does it take from msp-chi by bus? i think it's 8 hours by train. would a bus bridge allow connection to be made reliably? be expensive for amtrak to just bus connecting passengers but the missed connection have to be costing them now. maybe a van would do the job instead of a full sized bus


The Megabus site says it is between 7 hours and 55 minutes to 8 hours and 10 minutes between St Paul and Chicago, depending on the time of the day.

Google maps says 6-7 hours driving.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

yarrow said:


> how long does it take from msp-chi by bus? i think it's 8 hours by train. would a bus bridge allow connection to be made reliably? be expensive for amtrak to just bus connecting passengers but the missed connection have to be costing them now. maybe a van would do the job instead of a full sized bus


Greyhound's about 8 hours give or take. Not much faster then the train. I don't understand how a bustitute will help.

Edit: minor error.


----------



## SubwayNut

They don't busitute people already on the train, they simply send a bus to St. Paul to leave on time at 7:55am for passengers going only between MSP and CHI, I don't know if the bus also makes intermediate stops or they have a separate buses for that. I arrived on the EB a few years ago (St. Paul was my final destination of the day, have friends there so my two trips on the EB I broke-up there) signs on the doors into Midway Station (handwritten of course said): Train #8/28 due at 3:00pm, Buses Left On Time.

I was continuing from Midway Station (my next destination only Chicago) a few days later and as I left the station (thinking my train a few days later might be 3 hours late) asked if you had to take the buses, the response was "You can wait around and your ticket will be honored on the train." I wonder if you had a connection though if Amtrak would still put you up in a hotel or invoke the "We gave you a bus to make your connection, your on your own until tomorrow" response.


----------



## yarrow

looks like another great day on the hi-line. 8 over 5 hours late heading into chi. 7/27 4 hours late to sea/pdx which means probable late departure as 8/28 this afternoon. 7 around 2 hours down heading into western n dakota. when will amtrak acknowledge to the traveling public that there is a problem with the eb and when will they inform the traveling public of their plan for dealing with it?


----------



## Ispolkom

Next month Mrs. Ispolkom and I are going to Seattle on #7 to attend the Seattle Opera's production of Wagner's Ring Cycle. The first opera in Monday evening. We're scheduled to arrive in Seattle on Sunday morning. Given the Empire Builder's problems, I'm glad we left that much of a time cushion.


----------



## Rail Freak

Next month I'll be departing West Glacier on #7/#27, I may be waiting a while, but I wonder where?!!! Will the depot be open for shelter in case of storms?


----------



## montana mike

My BNSF contacts have shared with me it will get worse before it gets better. The added kicker of slow orders due to heat are now coming into play. He reiterated that the construction projects are not "one-offs", meaning BNSF has a substantial amount of work in the pipeline thru the rest of this construction season (thru October) and then starting up again next Spring.

Looking at the delays being experienced both during the week and also on the weekends the delay estimates seem to be right on the money (sadly), with around 2 hour delays for weekend EB travelers and 3-5+ hour delays for those traveling during the week. Troubling to see the increased delays for trains heading into SEA and PDX this week, hope that isn't a trend....but I guess there just isn't sufficient padding even on this segment to make up for 3-5 hour delays thru ND and MT.

:-(


----------



## AlanB

SubwayNut said:


> I wonder if you had a connection though if Amtrak would still put you up in a hotel or invoke the "We gave you a bus to make your connection, your on your own until tomorrow" response.


No, if they run an ontime bus from MSP station and you have a connecting train and refuse the bus, then you are on your own if you misconnect. Amtrak will help you get on a train the next day, but the night in Chicago will be on your dime.


----------



## montana mike

Could be a challenging weekend for the EB's. Both #7's are around 2 hours behind schedule and both #8's are around 3 hours late!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Look like 7 (19) did make up a few minutes. Right now it's only 1:50 late. 8 (19) seems screwed over, making up time then slacking off again, having left WTN 3:36 behind advertised.

The trains of 20 July seem to be already delayed as they leave their origins, which donsen't bode well if the delays pile up. At least it's better than some 7-8 hour delay. I don't think Amtrak is using the extra set from CHI right now.

As an added note, the 6 (19) has also piled up delays since leaving RNO.


----------



## montana mike

Compounding the challenge:

Eastbound Empire Builder Train 8/28: Service Affected between St. Paul-Minneapolis and Chicago 

Effective on Select Dates in July 2013 

On the following dates, bridge work being performed by Canadian Pacific Railway near Red Wing, Minnesota, will affect eastbound Train 8/28, as described below: 

July 22 through July 25, 2013 
July 29 and July 30, 2013 

Eastbound Train 8/28 

Train 8/28, originating in Seattle/Portland (two days earlier than the above six dates), will be delayed between St. Paul/Minneapolis and Chicago. The train will depart St.Paul-Minneapolis at 9:50 am, two hours later than normally scheduled in the Amtrak timetable


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Compounding the challenge:Eastbound Empire Builder Train 8/28: Service Affected between St. Paul-Minneapolis and Chicago
> 
> Effective on Select Dates in July 2013
> 
> On the following dates, bridge work being performed by Canadian Pacific Railway near Red Wing, Minnesota, will affect eastbound Train 8/28, as described below:
> 
> July 22 through July 25, 2013
> 
> July 29 and July 30, 2013
> 
> Eastbound Train 8/28
> 
> Train 8/28, originating in Seattle/Portland (two days earlier than the above six dates), will be delayed between St. Paul/Minneapolis and Chicago. The train will depart St.Paul-Minneapolis at 9:50 am, two hours later than normally scheduled in the Amtrak timetable


since departing msp at 9:50am would be good otp compared to what the eb is doing lately sounds like a good time for the bridge work


----------



## June the Coach Rider

On the 16th, the EB pulled into CHI just as we were loading the LSL. Which made for complete confussion because they were side by side on the platform and there were people everywhere. The red cap was trying to get thru the mess and finally just sat there and waited until someone finally realized they were in the way. I don't blame them because there were two ways to go, those who needed to make the LSL and those who had missed their connection and needed vouchers.

Luckily the LSL did not have to be held for the EB, but I think it would have been for a little while anyway if needed.


----------



## montana mike

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Compounding the challenge:Eastbound Empire Builder Train 8/28: Service Affected between St. Paul-Minneapolis and Chicago
> 
> Effective on Select Dates in July 2013
> 
> On the following dates, bridge work being performed by Canadian Pacific Railway near Red Wing, Minnesota, will affect eastbound Train 8/28, as described below:
> 
> July 22 through July 25, 2013
> 
> July 29 and July 30, 2013
> 
> Eastbound Train 8/28
> 
> Train 8/28, originating in Seattle/Portland (two days earlier than the above six dates), will be delayed between St. Paul/Minneapolis and Chicago. The train will depart St.Paul-Minneapolis at 9:50 am, two hours later than normally scheduled in the Amtrak timetable
> 
> 
> 
> since departing msp at 9:50am would be good otp compared to what the eb is doing lately sounds like a good time for the bridge work
Click to expand...

Good thought--since #8 has usually been more than two hours late arriving in MSP anyway!!


----------



## calwatch

If the Empire Builder is late enough to go into the dinner period, do they serve an extra meal to sleeper car passengers? Try to clean out the stock, or does everybody have to make do with whatever is left in the cafe car?


----------



## montana mike

I have been on the EB coming into CHI when it was very late (6+ hours) and they did serve dinner-several times. What you get is dependent on what they have available. Once I actually had steak, but the last two times it was beef stew over rice--not the most exciting entree.

BTW-#8 is about 5 hours behind heading into CHI-town tonight and #7 plugging along across MT is also just about 5 hours late as it wings its way west. Week days appear to be especially bad for both east and west bound EBs, as the level of construction is higher than on weekends. Most weekday CHI arrivals are running 3-5 hours late (as the BNSF people predicted), with weekends "only" averaging 2 hour delays. Making a same day connection on the EB this summer has been a real challenge!


----------



## amamba

calwatch said:


> If the Empire Builder is late enough to go into the dinner period, do they serve an extra meal to sleeper car passengers? Try to clean out the stock, or does everybody have to make do with whatever is left in the cafe car?


Well I had an extreme lateness on the EB last year, but we arrived into CHI around 9:15 pmish. We did have dinner - they brought on KFC at Wisconsin Dells. Here is my picture of my KFC on the EB:


----------



## montana mike

Wow--that would have been better than the beef stew!!


----------



## amamba

montana mike said:


> Wow--that would have been better than the beef stew!!


Oh we had that first. Except it was chicken and perhaps the remains of the frozen vegetables?


----------



## yarrow

amamba said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow--that would have been better than the beef stew!!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh we had that first. Except it was chicken and perhaps the remains of the frozen vegetables?
Click to expand...

ah, the noble empire builder, flagship of the fleet


----------



## yarrow

looks like 27's pax were bustituted from spk-pdx today for a 3 hour late arrival while 7's pax stayed on the train for a somewhat later arrival into sea. wonder why 27 got the bus? probably a somewhat late 8 out of sea this afternoon again


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Wow, the trains are doing OK right now, 8 (23) is only 1 hour 10 minutes late having made it all the way to Minot. I know it'll lose time between GFK and FAr, but at least t's better than it could be! also, 28 disappeared, still says Overdue-PT. 28 might be a bustitute again.

Link: http://www.dixielandsoftware.com/cgi-bin/getmap.pl?mapname=West

Edit: error


----------



## N.T.

If 8 is very late getting into Seattle, are sleeping car passengers offered a lunch?


----------



## montana mike

If the train is going to be that late #8 is likely to be terminated in SPK and passengers bussed, since AMTRAK would not likely be able to turn the equipment around in time for an on time departure from SEA that PM. Good question though.


----------



## EB_OBS

yarrow said:


> looks like 27's pax were bustituted from spk-pdx today for a 3 hour late arrival while 7's pax stayed on the train for a somewhat later arrival into sea. wonder why 27 got the bus? probably a somewhat late 8 out of sea this afternoon again


MOW track closure at Sprague 5am - 12pm. #27 needed to leave SPK by 4am to make this window. Unfortunately it was too late.


----------



## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> looks like 27's pax were bustituted from spk-pdx today for a 3 hour late arrival while 7's pax stayed on the train for a somewhat later arrival into sea. wonder why 27 got the bus? probably a somewhat late 8 out of sea this afternoon again
> 
> 
> 
> MOW track closure at Sprague 5am - 12pm. #27 needed to leave SPK by 4am to make this window. Unfortunately it was too late.
Click to expand...

thanks for the info


----------



## montana mike

After a couple of days of "only" being 2 hours late into CHI, this AM's #8 in MN is chugging along almost 5 1/2 hours behind-again apparently due to the challenges thru eastern MT and ND, along with the usual freight traffic. Riding the EB this summer has been an interesting experience to be sure.....


----------



## yarrow

7/27 both seem to have dropped off the status map today even though they were just a bit late leaving spk? bustitution? why?


----------



## tonys96

Where is the link to the last few weeks arrival times for 8/28. Going to MSP in a few weeks and just looking to see the "average" arrival time there.

Thanks


----------



## yarrow

tonys96 said:


> Where is the link to the last few weeks arrival times for 8/28. Going to MSP in a few weeks and just looking to see the "average" arrival time there.Thanks


 http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com


----------



## NW cannonball

So, roughly, you can expect to arrive before noon. Give or take a few hours.


----------



## tonys96

Thanks!

We are going to arrive on Sunday. It looks like Sundays are the better day of the whole bunch......


----------



## montana mike

Yes, weekends should be better, not as much construction, just mostly heavy freight traffic. The BNSF estimate of 1-2 hour delays on weekends has been holding reasonably accurately so far, with about double (or more) that on weekdays. So your Sunday should work well for you.


----------



## jebr

Just an FYI:

The connection to the Capitol Limited was made today. They bustituted for the Cardinal. Heard the announcements while waiting for the 307.


----------



## montana mike

A little good news from BNSF. They have completed a portion of one of their projects and will not start another major one for a while yet--waiting for materials and manpower to be available.. But I was cautioned to not expect this lull to last for too long. Any help will be welcomed!!!


----------



## Rail Freak

montana mike said:


> A little good news from BNSF. They have completed a portion of one of their projects and will not start another major one for a while yet--waiting for materials and manpower to be available.. But I was cautioned to not expect this lull to last for too long. Any help will be welcomed!!!


If the lull can last for just 4 more weeks, I have a date with Glacier Park!!! :unsure:  :huh:


----------



## Guest

montana mike said:


> A little good news from BNSF. They have completed a portion of one of their projects and will not start another major one for a while yet--waiting for materials and manpower to be available.. But I was cautioned to not expect this lull to last for too long. Any help will be welcomed!!!


Any idea how long this will last?


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> A little good news from BNSF. They have completed a portion of one of their projects and will not start another major one for a while yet--waiting for materials and manpower to be available.. But I was cautioned to not expect this lull to last for too long. Any help will be welcomed!!!


it sure is nice to see green and a little yellow on the amtrak status map for the hi-line instead of solid red. must be about time for another eb quirk of fate. grizzly bear, wildfire, equipment failure.......


----------



## montana mike

Good news--#8 arrived in CHI only 26 minutes late--best performance in months!!

Bad News-#7 chugging thru eastern MT right now lost almost 3 hours in the construction zones of ND and MT during its trek today

We have seen much worse, so let's keep hoping that things improve. I do wish Amtrak would recognize the fact that the train ends up stopped in Williston about 15-20 minutes every time I have taken the EB this year (which is 6 so far). There are just so many people getting on and off, plus lots of baggage, that the logistics of getting everyone sorted out just takes that much time. This is NOT going to slow down, like the construction will at some point in the future. Williston is now a major stop and should be recognized as such.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Williston is now a major stop and should be recognized as such.


exactly. we were through on the eb last fall and were in williston nearly 30min just for passenger work. plenty of time to get off, take pics of the old equipment on display, see the nice station, etc


----------



## JayPea

26 minutes late into Chicago??? As Yogi Berra might say, that's the earliest it's been late in a long time! :lol:


----------



## Bob Dylan

JayPea said:


> 26 minutes late into Chicago??? As Yogi Berra might say, that's the earliest it's been late in a long time! :lol:


To paraphrase another Yogism: : "It's so popular that no-one rides that train anymore! :giggle:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Good news--#8 arrived in CHI only 26 minutes late--best performance in months!! Bad News-#7 chugging thru eastern MT right now lost almost 3 hours in the construction zones of ND and MT during its trek today
> 
> We have seen much worse, so let's keep hoping that things improve. I do wish Amtrak would recognize the fact that the train ends up stopped in Williston about 15-20 minutes every time I have taken the EB this year (which is 6 so far). There are just so many people getting on and off, plus lots of baggage, that the logistics of getting everyone sorted out just takes that much time. This is NOT going to slow down, like the construction will at some point in the future. Williston is now a major stop and should be recognized as such.


Hey, at least the 7 (27) has made up over a half-hour by now. Not much but it's something. The 8 (27) is in big trouble though, it too a dive into the delays by losing two hours after Wolf Point.

Also, 7 (27) has got #822 right now, while 5 (27) has got #184 and 14 (28) is running with #156. The retro units are on the move in the West! It's nice to see a P40DC in action, as well!


----------



## montana mike

Monday Update: #8, now in MN is running 4 hours behind and #7 in ND is 2 hours slow. Doesn't look like this week is starting off very well

Service Disruption: Amtrak now showing a service disruption on #8 between Wolf Point and Williston. Too bad-it was only about a half-hour behind schedule when something caused this disruption. Anyone have any information on this?


----------



## PRR 60

montana mike said:


> Monday Update: #8, now in MN is running 4 hours behind and #7 in ND is 2 hours slow. Doesn't look like this week is starting off very well
> Service Disruption: Amtrak now showing a service disruption on #8 between Wolf Point and Williston. Too bad-it was only about a half-hour behind schedule when something caused this disruption. Anyone have any information on this?


Report at Trainorders is that #8 struck a bulldozer near Trenton ND (just west of Williston). The lead unit is reported to be damaged and derailed, and there is a fuel leak.


----------



## montana mike

Bummer. Hope no one was on the bull dozer when they collided. :-( Hope the engineer is OK.

This will be an interesting story to be sure and may delay not just this train but possibly other EBs as well. So sad to see something like this happen for all concerned.


----------



## Texan Eagle

Is there ANYTHING left that the Empire Builder has NOT hit yet? Farming equipment, grizzly bear (not hit, but caused delay), now bulldozer. What next? Alien Spaceship?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Texan Eagle said:


> Is there ANYTHING left that the Empire Builder has NOT hit yet? Farming equipment, grizzly bear (not hit, but caused delay), now bulldozer. What next? Alien Spaceship?


Hey, don't forget the water truck! Maybe next time it'll hit a fallen log! :giggle:


----------



## GG-1

Texan Eagle said:


> Is there ANYTHING left that the Empire Builder has NOT hit yet? Farming equipment, grizzly bear (not hit, but caused delay), now bulldozer. What next? Alien Spaceship?


Wasn't it the Southwest Chief the hit the Alien Spaceship? Knocked it all the Way to Roswell, NM. :huh:  :lol:

Aloha


----------



## Donna

Great. Today is the day I take no.7 out to Spokane from Chicago.You say they have a tendency to hit things on the no.8 more? Hoping all will be cleared and in useable order by next Monday when I take the no.8 back to Chicago. Any other immediate concerns, other than blockages and late arrivals I need to worry about? Will there be temporary wifi available while stopped inMSP?


----------



## Michael061282

a quick snapshot of #8's lead loco.. doesn't look good. The fuel leak sounds like its coming from the trailing unit. So what does Amtrak do when both units get put out of commission in mid run? If there protecting somewhere up there?

http://www.ktvq.com/images/thumbnails/E41E3B4F557E0D72D7CDEF55D9B3AFBF_292_292.jpg


----------



## yarrow

Michael061282 said:


> a quick snapshot of #8's lead loco.. doesn't look good. The fuel leak sounds like its coming from the trailing unit. So what does Amtrak do when both units get put out of commission in mid run? If there protecting somewhere up there?
> http://www.ktvq.com/images/thumbnails/E41E3B4F557E0D72D7CDEF55D9B3AFBF_292_292.jpg


maybe joe will loan the eb some of the power he and the royal entourage are hauling around


----------



## NW cannonball

Found this fairly complete report.

Excerpt



> The Empire Builder #8 east bound started moving again after relief engines arrived at 2:25 AM MDT, and took the #8 Amtrak train to Trenton using NS 8043, NS 8021, AMTK 21, and AMTK 91 for power.


According to the status map the train left Minot 11 hours and 12 minutes late.

The bulldozer operator (now deceased) was the only serious injury.


----------



## Michael061282

OK I know I had tooth pulled and I'm not really with it this morning.. but what??

"The accident was caused by the construction company not providing a flagger with the Amtrak train was coming around a corner and the engineer not seeing the bulldozer on the track ahead of him."

Maybe it'll make sense when I'm not flying on Codeine Air at 35,000 ft.


----------



## fairviewroad

Michael061282 said:


> OK I know I had tooth pulled and I'm not really with it this morning.. but what??
> "The accident was caused by the construction company not providing a flagger with the Amtrak train was coming around a corner and the engineer not seeing the bulldozer on the track ahead of him."
> 
> Maybe it'll make sense when I'm not flying on Codeine Air at 35,000 ft.


First of all, I'm not sure how much stock I'd put into a news article on.... "Montana With Kids Dot Com" ... not exactly the Old Grey Lady

when it comes to definitive news coverage.

That said, it sounds to me as though possibly equipment operators in that area MAY have known this was an issue. A bulldozer does

not exactly RUSH across the tracks. It's possible that due to a curve in the track the bulldozer operator could not see an oncoming train...

and had no choice but to cross the tracks and hope nothing was coming 'round the bend. And if it was a "private" crossing it's possible

trains do not blow whistles there.

This problem would be solved by placing a spotter further up the track who was in radio contact with the bulldozer operator. Perhaps this

was something that had been requested but never implemented due to laziness and/or penny-pinching managers. Again, JUST speculating.


----------



## afigg

Michael061282 said:


> a quick snapshot of #8's lead loco.. doesn't look good. The fuel leak sounds like its coming from the trailing unit. So what does Amtrak do when both units get put out of commission in mid run? If there protecting somewhere up there?
> http://www.ktvq.com/images/thumbnails/E41E3B4F557E0D72D7CDEF55D9B3AFBF_292_292.jpg


That is one banged up P-42. The same photo in the (early) KTVG article. That P-42 will be out of action for a while. Been a bad month or two for collisions for Amtrak, but it would make sense that more crossing collisions happen in summer.


----------



## N.T.

NW cannonball said:


> Found this fairly complete report.
> Excerpt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Empire Builder #8 east bound started moving again after relief engines arrived at 2:25 AM MDT, and took the #8 Amtrak train to Trenton using NS 8043, NS 8021, AMTK 21, and AMTK 91 for power.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the status map the train left Minot 11 hours and 12 minutes late.
> 
> The bulldozer operator (now deceased) was the only serious injury.
Click to expand...

I think being deceased is waaaaay more than a serious injury!


----------



## Agent

Video of Amtrak #8 at Staples, Minnesota with a pair of freight locomotives. Interesting choice of power by BNSF if I say so myself.


----------



## montana mike

Well, I guess that's one way to get a couple NS engines back to the east!


----------



## montana mike

#8 arrived in CHI 14 hours late last evening-whew, that must have been one hectic of a journey. Today's #8 isn't doing that much better--having lost over 4 hours thru the construction areas of MT and ND. My BNSF folks say the construction activity has resumed, so I guess the somewhat improved arrival times in CHI may be a thing of the past for a while. This latest effort is supposed to wrap up in about 30 days.


----------



## scoostraw

Agent said:


> Video of Amtrak #8 at Staples, Minnesota with a pair of freight locomotives.


Did the train have HEP I wonder? I had heard that the 2nd Amtrak unit was damaged in the collision and was leaking fuel.


----------



## montana mike

7(31) is now almost 5 hours behind as it treks thru ND--not looking good for a decent arrival in SEA tomorrow. 8(30) is about 3 1/2 hours late in MN now-likley a 3 hour arrival delay into CHI-town this evening.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> 7(31) is now almost 5 hours behind as it treks thru ND--not looking good for a decent arrival in SEA tomorrow. 8(30) is about 3 1/2 hours late in MN now-likley a 3 hour arrival delay into CHI-town this evening.


the amtrak exhibit train (by the way for those who have seen it what is it like?) will be parked at the spk station for the weekend so might be a bad time to turn the eb in spk if it loses more time


----------



## RRUserious

When I went from Spokane to Portland, we made up a lot of time and arrived 45 minutes early there. I don't think I've ever continued on the train to Seattle, so I don't know how the trip between Spokane and Seattle normally goes in summer.


----------



## NW cannonball

scoostraw said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Video of Amtrak #8 at Staples, Minnesota with a pair of freight locomotives.
> 
> 
> 
> Did the train have HEP I wonder? I had heard that the 2nd Amtrak unit was damaged in the collision and was leaking fuel.
Click to expand...

First news reports quoted an "Amtrak representative" who said that there was power and food. Later reports said no HEP while the train was waiting for rescue power. At least from Williston eastward, they did have HEP.


----------



## yarrow

i see 7/27 into sea/pdx have dropped off the status maps again so i assume the eb will turn in spk. we need a sign at the station "welcome to spokane-the new sea/pdx"


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

I arrived yesterday(8/1) on #8 from Seattle into Chicago. We arrived at 7:38pm a little under 4 hours late. Yesterday, Amtrak held all the connecting trains in Chicago including the Capitol Limited so all connections were met. We were actually just ahead of time all the way to Williston, ND, including arriving at Spokane 1 hour early at 11:30pm. I guess we were the lucky train and the Seattle crew were great. I had Tanner as my SCA.


----------



## RRUserious

You were lucky to have the connections held. I guess 4 hours is below the limit of lateness. A bit more and they let all the trains go. But I do understand those trains have connections, too. It is easy for one bad route to hemmorhage the whole system.


----------



## montana mike

A terrible day for the Builders: #7 chugging along in WA is over 8 hours late and #7 in WI is just under 6 hours late. BNSF says the construction will continue at the current pace thru the end of October btw. Also, additional energy trains are coming on line shortly as well--he would not give a timeframe on that item, just that this freight traffic will increase further. This effects the portion of the EB route from eastern MT to the east mostly.

:-((


----------



## RRUserious

Lots and LOTS of missed trains in Chicago. The hotels are feasting on Amtrak!


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

With "Lalapoloosa" in Chicago this weekend maybe there are no hotels available for Amtrak thus forcing the holding of eastbound LD train connections. Chicago was my destination yesterday so I was not concerned about the connections.


----------



## fairviewroad

Tennessee Traveler said:


> With "Lalapoloosa" in Chicago this weekend maybe there are no hotels available for Amtrak thus forcing the holding of eastbound LD train connections.


Interesting. Of course, if Amtrak was thinking outside the box they could probably have stashed people in Milwaukee and put them on a Hiawatha

train the next morning in plenty of time to catch their connection in Chicago.


----------



## ATXEagle

At what point would they consider breaking the connections to the eastbound trains? If not to the LSL, then at least not letting people book guaranteed reservations connecting to the CL or the Card. It must be very expensive for them to put people up in hotels so often.


----------



## yarrow

anyone know why the eb wasn't turned in spokane? unless they have an extra trainset in sea/pdx or unless they cancel today's departures it will be a very late start for 8/28


----------



## montana mike

Very good question--as of right now the estimated departure time out of SEA for #8 is 4 hours late--BUT #7 hasn't even arrived yet!!! Amazing. Meanwhile #8 in WI is going to be close to 8 hours late arriving in CHI-likely very early in the AM Saturday morning.

At what point do these enormous delays start impacting the entire route???

I have asked my BNSF folks if this is something just anomalous for today or will be be seeing more very tardy EBs in the coming days--haven't heard back yet.

:-(


----------



## RRUserious

I will say this. My messed up trip to Toronto via LSL did acquaint me to how the other half lives when they put me up in a very close hotel, the kind I'd never book on Orbitz. Saw one of their places the other day and thought "Oh, yeh, that was the high class place I stayed while waiting the 24 hours for my next train to leave". Still don't think I'd ever pay their prices. Guess my needs and that of some richer people just aren't the same. Frankly size is unimportant. Bugs are unacceptable. Strong smells of any kind don't do it. General cleanliness counts no matter what the price. But the place that Amtrak chooses? Wasted on me.


----------



## Linda T

montana mike said:


> A terrible day for the Builders: #7 chugging along in WA is over 8 hours late and #7 in WI is just under 6 hours late. BNSF says the construction will continue at the current pace thru the end of October btw. Also, additional energy trains are coming on line shortly as well--he would not give a timeframe on that item, just that this freight traffic will increase further. This effects the portion of the EB route from eastern MT to the east mostly. :-((


Well, that's a bummer, since I'll be doing the #8 in mid September. Guess I'll probably miss my Cardinal connection? Will they put me up for two nights? They did in 2011.


----------



## RRUserious

Are there any lines that routinely make connections?


----------



## NW cannonball

I'm beginning to wonder about all this track work slowing traffic from Minot to Grand Forks. Seems like much more than the Devil's Lake track lift job.

Is the BNSF's new owner wanting to make the MOT - GFK a viable freight alternative? Either to relieve the main line Fargo - Minot for doing serious upgrades on that route next season. And/or to develop an alternate route for the crude trains to go to Duluth or up into Canada?

Just speculating - but Warren bought the BNSF for some reason. Surely the Bakken oil traffic was part of the calculation.

No doubt the BNSF is spending much money on the track work that delays the EB (and their own trains)

And wondering how the (nobody knows) plans of the BNSF might affect Amtrak's EB.

Track upgrades -- good. More traffic - bad. In any case waiting out the track work and delays is bad for Amtrak pax on the EB route.


----------



## NW cannonball

Now, #8 (august2) hasn't got to Spokane yet -- 7hours or so late now -- estimate 10-12 hours late at Chi? or more?


----------



## yarrow

NW cannonball said:


> Now, #8 (august2) hasn't got to Spokane yet -- 7hours or so late now -- estimate 10-12 hours late at Chi? or more?


who knows? the only certainty is that amtrak isn't telling


----------



## montana mike

It's like they have given up on any pretense of running this train on any kind of schedule now. Last night's arrival in Chicago was almost midnight and who knows when the one currently somewhere in WA will arrive in CHI-town.

So sad.


----------



## yarrow

according to julie 8 will arrive in spk sometime after 7am. i guess 28 has been waiting for it most of the night at spk.


----------



## Donna

I'm riding number 8 from Spk, hoping to board relatively on time, Monday August 5 at 1:30am. Today's news about the no. 8 not arriving YET at Spk is very disturbing (and I'm using restraint with my semantics here) .are they likely to return to the 'almost' onetime status for arrival in Spk, or are we all sunk indefinitely? I know you all don't know for certain, just wondering if this has occurred before, if they turn this absurd lateness to the west coast around in a quick manner. I know and can handle being even 5-6hours late TO Chicago....but waiting ALL Night in the Spk station isn't very attractive. Any insights from a historical point of view? Thanks!


----------



## yarrow

Donna said:


> I'm riding number 8 from Spk, hoping to board relatively on time, Monday August 5 at 1:30am. Today's news about the no. 8 not arriving YET at Spk is very disturbing (and I'm using restraint with my semantics here) .are they likely to return to the 'almost' onetime status for arrival in Spk, or are we all sunk indefinitely? I know you all don't know for certain, just wondering if this has occurred before, if they turn this absurd lateness to the west coast around in a quick manner. I know and can handle being even 5-6hours late TO Chicago....but waiting ALL Night in the Spk station isn't very attractive. Any insights from a historical point of view? Thanks!


last year they actually cancelled all eb departures for a day to get times back in order. they also had an extra trainset in sea/pdx for awhile to get the trains off on time. they also cancelled connections with the cl in chi for a month or so. none of that this year so far. good luck


----------



## dlagrua

As of now the EB is 52 minutes late arriving at Seattle King Street station. That's only about 2% off the schedule on the 46 hour trip.


----------



## yarrow

dlagrua said:


> As of now the EB is 52 minutes late arriving at Seattle King Street station. That's only about 2% off the schedule on the 46 hour trip.





dlagrua said:


> As of now the EB is 52 minutes late arriving at Seattle King Street station. That's only about 2% off the schedule on the 46 hour trip.


other than yesterday 7 arriving into sea hasn't been too bad(a few turns in spk for 7/27). it's 8 that has been the consistent problem. 8 is more than seven hours late out of sea and it is still a day from the slow orders in e. montana and n.dakota


----------



## tonys96

Didn't #8 leave from Seattle? How late was it leaving? Mechanical problem? I saw that the CS was a bit late arriving in SEA, was that part of the problem?


----------



## yarrow

tonys96 said:


> Didn't #8 leave from Seattle? How late was it leaving? Mechanical problem? I saw that the CS was a bit late arriving in SEA, was that part of the problem?


7 was several hours late getting to sea yesterday but so was 27 into pdx and it had a much quicker turnaround so i dunno


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> Didn't #8 leave from Seattle? How late was it leaving? Mechanical problem? I saw that the CS was a bit late arriving in SEA, was that part of the problem?


7(31) arrived in SEA 8h11 late at 6:36pm on 8/2. Subsequently, 8(2) left 6h39 down at 11:19pm. A 5 hour turn is about the best that can be done, I think. Having the extra set available would have greatly helped out here.


----------



## NW cannonball

On the bright side -- # 8 that left SEA on 07/01 departed MSP only 1 hour 40 minutes late.

Seems like it's gone from predictably 4-6 hours late # 8 at CHI to totally unguessable lateness with a range of 2 - 12 hours late. Sheesh.

And the westbound has been within an hour or two of on-time at SEA (with some notable exceptions)

No way to run a railroad --


----------



## tonys96

Since 7 was so late, that made 8 start late, and the slow down in ND will make it later.......where does this end? Won't this make 7 late starting back west again? And around and around it goes......

What will break the circle?


----------



## NW cannonball

Actually, there seems to be a spare trainset or so at Chicago, so westbound departures from CHI are often on-time.

But if the eastbound #8 keeps having worse and worse problems (bulldozer on the track is not Amtrak's fault, and they seem to have had enough spare to compensate for that problem)

Eventually too many trainsets will be too late, too many will be out on the rails somewhere.

Like happened to UP freight with the floods a few years back. Too much delay, run out of locomotives because too many are delayed. Then run out of crews because they time out on the law getting nowhere slowly.

Hope this kind of evil cascade (no pun) doesn't happen on the Hi Line


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

7 went to Seattle to pick up the display equipment for the move to Spokane on train 8. They should of turn the late 7 equipment in Spokane to become a on-time 8, but the customer are not important. It seems...


----------



## yarrow

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> 7 went to Seattle to pick up the display equipment for the move to Spokane on train 8. They should of turn the late 7 equipment in Spokane to become a on-time 8, but the customer are not important. It seems...


we were just down at the display train and a guy who works the eb told me that no buses were available in spk due to a convention or sea due to seafair so they couldn't turn in spk yesterday. thus the late start for yesterday's 8


----------



## JayPea

I wondered how much if any the decision to not turn #7 had to do with the display train. Getting ready to head to Spokane now; it will be worth the 2 hour roundtrip just to see something associated with Amtrak at the Spokane station during daylight that isn't hours late! :lol:


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Yarrow I like your reason better than mine.

Hope it true, that train going to cost Amtrak a few hotels in Chicago.


----------



## RRUserious

As I said, I took the section that branched off to Portland. It arrived _45 minutes early!_ How often in Amtrakland is that true?


----------



## yarrow

RRUserious said:


> As I said, I took the section that branched off to Portland. It arrived _45 minutes early!_ How often in Amtrakland is that true?


in my experience, when the eb runs on time, hopefully starting in the fall, 7/27 usually arrive 10-40 minutes early into sea/pdx and 8/28 are into spk anywhere up to 45min early


----------



## JayPea

I just got back from seeing the display train and I was also told there were no buses available due to a convention. Also that 7 arrived in Spokane 5 hrs and 50some minutes late, just under the 6hr deadline for turning the train in Spokane, but during the switching process, an engine died and it took another 3 hrs to get another one. And so it goes.


----------



## yarrow

from the status maps it appears that 28 has not yet departed pdx. 8 is on time but looks like 28 will be late tonight to spk


----------



## EB_OBS

Trains 7 & 27 of the (31st) did indeed arrive into SPK at 7am Friday morning.

There are a couple of sports tournaments in town this weekend as well as some kind of convention. Every hotel in Spokane, Spokane Valley, Airway Heights, Liberty Lake and even Post Falls, ID were fully booked for the weekend. Additionally, there was only one bus available in Spokane, which Amtrak procured to transport Coast Starlight connections to Klamath Falls, OR.

Since no other buses were available it was not possible to terminate 7/27(31) in SPK.

The Amtrak Exhibit train has it's own loco, Engine 42. It was considered when discussing terminating the train in SPK but the exhibit train likely would have been deadheaded to SPK if necessary.

Upon arrival of 7(31) into SPK, the rear traction motor on the lead locomotive was smoking with a seized axle. It had to be set out. #27 departed but #7 had to wait for a BNSF loco in order to continue on to SEA. That's why #27 arrived into PDX so much earlier than #7 did into SEA.

Hope this clears things up a little.


----------



## EB_OBS

yarrow said:


> from the status maps it appears that 28 has not yet departed pdx. 8 is on time but looks like 28 will be late tonight to spk



A BNSF crew had a rules violation which trapped the PDX yard crew and they expired on HOS. This delayed servicing and getting #27 to the wye to turn it for #28


----------



## yarrow

EB_OBS said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> from the status maps it appears that 28 has not yet departed pdx. 8 is on time but looks like 28 will be late tonight to spk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A BNSF crew had a rules violation which trapped the PDX yard crew and they expired on HOS. This delayed servicing and getting #27 to the wye to turn it for #28
Click to expand...

thanks. this is the sort of stuff that happened last year as an added bonus to the construction delays. i see 8 that got into spk at 7am yesterday and should have been in chi this afternoon has dropped off the status map. bus from havre to chi, anyone? :giggle:


----------



## montana mike

Amtrak shows #8 arriving MSP over 8 hours behind schedule today-and arriving in CHI just before midnight--what a saga for this train the last few days--whew.

:-(((


----------



## jebr

montana mike said:


> Amtrak shows #8 arriving MSP over 8 hours behind schedule today-and arriving in CHI just before midnight--what a saga for this train the last few days--whew.:-(((


They're now showing 9 hours late into SCD, which would mean 8.5 (at best) into MSP.

At this rate, maybe Metro Transit can just use the Empire Builder as the midday Northstar train!


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## RRUserious

montana mike said:


> Amtrak shows #8 arriving MSP over 8 hours behind schedule today-and arriving in CHI just before midnight--what a saga for this train the last few days--whew.:-(((


Now I'm feeling lucky because MINE was only 6 hours!!!


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## montana mike

A ran into my BNSF contact today and he was just shaking his head over the EB delays on their line. The first thing he said was BNSF made it VERY clear to AMTRAK the scope and breadth of the work that was going to occur this maintenance season, especially in MT and ND. Second, there have been no surprises on the freight side of the coin either. The increase in the number of BOTH energy related trains as well as increases in grain, coal and inter-model trains was also provided in detail to the powers that be at AMTRAK well before this summer's EB schedule swoon. The delay estimates for the EBs that he provided to me some time back-which I shared on this forum-- have proven to be quite accurate, or even perhaps a wee bit conservative, as we have seen recently. Lastly, he has said BNSF has made bone fide efforts each and every day to try to move the EBs thru this maze, but as he told me, you can only push so much traffic thru a portal that is already very busy and is undergoing significant construction efforts by the host RR.

I asked him about later this Fall. He said with the construction winding down in about 8+ weeks removing much of that factor in the delays should help some of course, but the increases in all of the other traffic will continue, with the energy trains slated for further increases in 2014, as I have reported here earlier as well. When I relayed to him what was happening with the EB over this past week--especially for arrivals in CHI he said he was aware of the EB issues--it was one of the "hot topics" of conversation at BNSF. They do want the EB to operate in a timely manner and it hurts them to see these incredibly bad delays as well. I believe his sincerity in this regard.

I guess all we can do is hope for the best, but travelers MUST be prepared for missed connections, very long arrival delays. especially in CHI and along much of the EB route East of the Rockies and anyone traveling beyond CHI to the East or South should make sure they have some flexibility in their schedules.


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## Nathanael

montana mike said:


> I don't know who gave you that info. A very close friend of ours is a principle in one of the firms in the Bakken play and their estimates are for increasing production in ND and MT for at least 20-30 years, with full production lasting two to three times that long. This is the largest energy field outside of TX in US history. It will be around for generations. This guy has been in the business his entire life and I believe his estimates to be quite accurate. He is not one to speak in hyperboles.


Most of the shale *gas* plays are going to burn out VERY VERY fast -- less than 5 years -- they DO decline at 30%-40% per year -- which is probably what the previous commenter is thinking of.

Shale *oil* -- liquids -- does not decline nearly as fast, so Bakken will be around for a while. However, it will not be around "for generations". Maybe 30 years before steep decline sets in -- about right based on USGS estimates. And within 30 years, nobody will be wasting their money on the huge amounts of money necessary for extraction, since solar power will be (a lot) cheaper.

Oilmen habitually exaggerate the size of their discoveries (optimism bias), particularly when they're dealing with different geology from the old "gushers".


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## RRUserious

Thank heaven if they do peter out. The world doesn't need to be burning that much fossil fuel for decades. There are babies today that face very grim prospects if the consequences of combustion continue to grow. Everything we've taken for granted could be upset, and generations that make it to the end of this century will have a life we wouldn't recognize.


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## yarrow

montana mike said:


> A ran into my BNSF contact today and he was just shaking his head over the EB delays on their line. The first thing he said was BNSF made it VERY clear to AMTRAK the scope and breadth of the work that was going to occur this maintenance season, especially in MT and ND. Second, there have been no surprises on the freight side of the coin either. The increase in the number of BOTH energy related trains as well as increases in grain, coal and inter-model trains was also provided in detail to the powers that be at AMTRAK well before this summer's EB schedule swoon. The delay estimates for the EBs that he provided to me some time back-which I shared on this forum-- have proven to be quite accurate, or even perhaps a wee bit conservative, as we have seen recently. Lastly, he has said BNSF has made bone fide efforts each and every day to try to move the EBs thru this maze, but as he told me, you can only push so much traffic thru a portal that is already very busy and is undergoing significant construction efforts by the host RR.I asked him about later this Fall. He said with the construction winding down in about 8+ weeks removing much of that factor in the delays should help some of course, but the increases in all of the other traffic will continue, with the energy trains slated for further increases in 2014, as I have reported here earlier as well. When I relayed to him what was happening with the EB over this past week--especially for arrivals in CHI he said he was aware of the EB issues--it was one of the "hot topics" of conversation at BNSF. They do want the EB to operate in a timely manner and it hurts them to see these incredibly bad delays as well. I believe his sincerity in this regard.
> 
> I guess all we can do is hope for the best, but travelers MUST be prepared for missed connections, very long arrival delays. especially in CHI and along much of the EB route East of the Rockies and anyone traveling beyond CHI to the East or South should make sure they have some flexibility in their schedules.


maybe we can talk amtrak into issuing your post as a travel alert since they seem too busy to write and issue one themselves.


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## RRUserious

Yeh, Amtrak management is very customer-hostile IMO. The attendant in my compartment car was arrogant and rude to me. I guess we are their form of amusement. But thanks to places like this, people can sample the truth before they ride. Then either they go fully prepared for the ACTUAL trip, or they simply decide "this isn't for me". The fact is that much of it is not Amtrak's fault, but the lack of transparency is 100 percent Amtrak's fault. And fumbling the problems which are so predictable is also totally their fault. They apparently don't realize their requests to Congress are much less likely to get a friendly ear when they handle their job this way.


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## montana mike

Nathanael said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know who gave you that info. A very close friend of ours is a principle in one of the firms in the Bakken play and their estimates are for increasing production in ND and MT for at least 20-30 years, with full production lasting two to three times that long. This is the largest energy field outside of TX in US history. It will be around for generations. This guy has been in the business his entire life and I believe his estimates to be quite accurate. He is not one to speak in hyperboles.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the shale *gas* plays are going to burn out VERY VERY fast -- less than 5 years -- they DO decline at 30%-40% per year -- which is probably what the previous commenter is thinking of.
> 
> Shale *oil* -- liquids -- does not decline nearly as fast, so Bakken will be around for a while. However, it will not be around "for generations". Maybe 30 years before steep decline sets in -- about right based on USGS estimates. And within 30 years, nobody will be wasting their money on the huge amounts of money necessary for extraction, since solar power will be (a lot) cheaper.
> 
> Oilmen habitually exaggerate the size of their discoveries (optimism bias), particularly when they're dealing with different geology from the old "gushers".
Click to expand...

Considering just 10 years ago the USCGS estimated the size of the Bakken to be only about 5% of what their current estimate is now I wouldn't put much credence in anything they say lately. Time will prove who is correct, but I recall so many "pundits" and "experts" saying that the US would peak in oil and NG production in 1979 and would be a huge importer of these two items by 2010 and look where we are now (we will be a net exporter of NG shortly for example). Our imports have dropped sharply and we are producing more NG and oil than in decades. I am not a blind proponent of just fossil fuels by any stretch, but I look at the "promise" wind power--right here in our back yard in MT and all I see is very high priced results (still 3 times the cost of any alternative, the slaughtering of tens of thousands of birds each year (a sad and "inconvenient truth" of this type of generation) and "wind turbine fires" (fascinating-I have seen several now in MT--not pretty sights and also, unfortunately more "routine" than most would lead one to believe). I look at solar and think, yes, someday this will make a big difference (at least we all hope so), but the contribution is so tiny even now and the cost is even higher than other generation methods that until we can improve the efficiency of the capture of the Sun's energy , this is going to be a fringe player. I have all of the confidence that eventually our great minds will indeed come up with the breakthroughs needed to transform how we produce energy and how we use it, but I am also a realist, knowing these breakthroughs will take more time and require several very significant advances in science.


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## RRUserious

> I recall so many "pundits" and "experts" saying that the US would peak in oil and NG production in 1979 and would be a huge importer of these two items by 2010 and look where we are now


Try to recall that the predictions are the reason that huge efforts have been made to conserve all forms of energy. If people had been frivolous about energy, who knows where we'd be? Also, consider the effect of the oil wars. Let's say Saddam Hussein's campaign to trade petroleum in other than dollars had succeeded (and m any countries have reasons to want that), we'be forced back on our own resources. We've probably imported hundreds of billions of barrels in the last couple decades. So I think you have to do the analysis with all elements in mind. It is so easy to joke about the "experts" being clueless. But a little harder to consider all the variables that led from 1979 till now. We can't forget those deep deep wells in the Caribbean, one of which gushed a leak of historic proportions.

On this pagehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy is a graph. In 1979, CAFE for cars was under 20. In 2009, it had doubled. Given America's love of driving billions of miles, that doubling, which experts didn't have any reason to project, is a big factor in the last decade's downward trend of gasoline purchase.


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## montana mike

Hmmmm, the last 22 years (1990-2012), looking at the DOE's own stats our actual CAFE numbers have gone up a "whopping" 1.5 mpg. Not what I would call statistically significant. With the boom in sales of big trucks and SUVs (almost all of the increase in new vehicle sales) this year, not sure we are going to make much progress here.

PS--The well that leaked was in the Gulf of Mexico-nowhere near the Caribbean.

PPS--#8 in MN this AM lost around 3 1/2 hours during its trek thru the MT/ND construction zone--surprising a bit, since it was the weekend. Must be working this weekend.


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## RRUserious

Um, interesting, but you didn't post the l ink you were looking at. Can't comment till I read that.


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## RRUserious

Couple of interesting economic facts. The chart on this page shows gasoline consumption barely exceeding 1994. http://ourfiniteworld.com/2013/01/31/why-is-us-oil-consumption-lower-better-gasoline-mileage/ The second fact is that in that same period, the GDP went from 9 trillion to nearly 16 trillion. So if you look at the gas burned relative to economy size, the gasoline needed to run the economy has dropped CONSIDERABLY. Funny how back when the first proposals to raise gas mileage came out in the 70's, opponents said "oh that'll crush the economy". Looking back, it now seems that making cars fuel efficient has merely saved the auto industry from death because most of the world wouldn't buy US cars if they were as inefficient as in the 1970s. And I never get tired of repeating that oil dollars are the ultimate source of funding for global terrorism. I'm surprised Bakken hasn't beat that drum.


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## montana mike

Your solution???? If we switched over to "alternative" sources of energy right now (eg. wind and solar), using today's technology where would we be? Our wind turbines (when not catching on fire and slaughtering birds) only operate about 1/3 of the time here in MT--even at the windy Rocky Mtn front--not because there is too little wind, but because they cannot operate when it is too windy, which is most of the time in the winter. Solar is still years away from being close to competitive with any other energy source. DOE's own figures (when you look at the total life cycle of a solar facility- a lot more maintenance than one would think--dust an dirt cut down dramatically on panel efficiency) still puts the cost per KWH at over 3 times the cost of a NG power plant. We MUST be realistic in our thinking and planning.

Lastly, if we become energy independent by using what we have in the short run (< 50 years), while working on longer term solutions, those oil sheiks and nut cases in Venezuela and Iran will then have fewer places to sell their oil to thus greatly reducing the threat of terrorism. The ONLY reason this is an issue is because most of the world unfortunately depends on these unstable dictatorships and Islamic theocracies for our energy. Remove the demand and they eventually become irrelevant-as they were before the oil boom.

BTW--doing the math and using the USCGS and DOE figures on the amount of NG "technically recoverable" right now in the Bakken and applying this amount to the US daily usage of NG, this field would be able to supply all of our NG needs for over a century. Hardly a flash in the pan as suggested.

I also spoke with two of my BNSF friends this AM about what time horizon BNSF is looking at in ND and MT as far as the Bakken and they were both told by senior management that the infrastructure going into place now is expected to be fully utilized for "in excess of 70 years".

PS--Most of the world doesn't buy US cars anymore either. Sadly "foreign" imports and transplants even make up a majority of US car sales now- (GM is down to a 18% market share (when my father worked for Ford, GM dominated with 50%+), Toyota 14.7%, Ford 14.4%, Honda 11.3%, Chrysler (now includes Fiat which owns Chrysler) 11%, Nissan 8%, Hyundai 5%, Subaru 2.5%, VW 2.4%, and others.....).


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## montana mike

Getting BACK on topic--Monday looks like it is shaping up to be a more typical day for the Empire Builder--perhaps 3+ hours behind on #8 chugging thru WI now and slightly better performance on the #7 heading westbound in eastern MT. Could be a lot worse!!


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## RRUserious

Glad someone did that. The other discussion belonged elsewhere. 3 hours could be "on time".


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## montana mike

#8: 4 hours and 10 minutes lost thru MT and ND this AM. Arrival in CHI last night was around 7:30 PM. This is pretty much the norm now for weekday arrivals in Chicago.

:-(


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## RRUserious

Which connections were missed? The LSL wasn't, was it?


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## Linda T

RRUserious said:


> Which connections were missed? The LSL wasn't, was it?


No, it leaves at 9:30 PM.

The Cardinal gives me far more onboard time (18 hours) vs the LSL only 4.5, but I also don't want to miss my connection. Is there a precedent in regards to Amtrak eliminating guaranteed connections? Has it happened before? Does that kind of thing generally only apply to reservations not already made? Can it include a trip already in progress? My problem with changing my reservation is it would mean paying for a hotel room, and for a ticket on Greyhound, which could easily come to a couple hundred dollars.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Linda yes Amtrak has in the past block guaranteed connection to new sales. If you have a ticket that show a guaranteed connection they will take care of you. Of course that might be a bus or coach seat, not the sleeper you booked, but it is on them.

I have no idea why there not breaking new sales guaranteed connection this year like they did last year. Bad feedback?

Or why they just don't block the Capital Limited connection all year. Yes it is extreme but.....

.


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## Linda T

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Linda yes Amtrak has in the past block guaranteed connection to new sales. If you have a ticket that show a guaranteed connection they will take care of you. Of course that might be a bus or coach seat, not the sleeper you booked, but it is on them.
> I have no idea why there not breaking new sales guaranteed connection this year like they did last year. Bad feedback?
> 
> Or why they just don't block the Capital Limited connection all year. Yes it is extreme but.....
> 
> .


Thank you. That's exactly what I wanted to know. I don't care about a sleeper on the final leg home.


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## montana mike

BNSF Update: Noting that current delays thru MT and ND are running right around 4 hours EACH way now on Mondays thru Fridays, with about 2.5 hour delays over the weekends, my BNSF contact stated this should be expected thru about mid-september, when they will finish up one of their projects, with hopefully modest improvements of "only" 2-3 hours per day until the construction season ends in mid to late October.

BTW: today #8 just south of MKE is about 4 hours and 15 minutes late into CHI and #7, now in MT is about 3 1/2 hours behind schedule. So his comments to me appear to be quite accurate.

I looked at the past week of arrivals in CHI and it has been brutal. :-(


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## RRUserious

Tempted to go off topic, but predictability is useful.


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## montana mike

Yes, I guess if you know the train will almost always be 4 hours late it does help--sort of. What surprises me is the cost to put people up in Chicago, provide alternative transportation, etc....must be enormous this summer for Amtrak. I looked at the track record of #8 arrivals in CHI-town and you are right it has been consistently terrible, but that is little comfort for people who naively planned their trips, thinking they were going to connects with another train.


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## Just-Thinking-51

It seem Amtrak been holding the Capital Limited for connecting pax. So the hotel charges are limited. Not sure what the cut-off for the hold, but a four hour late Builder makes the connection with the Capital Limited.


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## Guest

What have they been doing for missed connections? I am travelling to Dearborn via Empire Builder ->Chicago Union Station-> Wolverine. Has Amtrak been comping people or putting them up over night in Chicago?


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## Bob Dylan

Guest said:


> What have they been doing for missed connections? I am travelling to Dearborn via Empire Builder ->Chicago Union Station-> Wolverine. Has Amtrak been comping people or putting them up over night in Chicago?


In the case of the Michigan Trains they'd probably put you on a Bus unfortunately!


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## RRUserious

Better than to wait 24 hours for another train. If I could have gotten Amtrak to buy a bus ticket to Toronto, I think I would have gone for it. Probably save Amtrak a boatload of $$$$


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## montana mike

I have noticed they have held the CL for the past several days-when the Builder has been verrrry late. I guess they are indeed looking at a "cost-benefit" analysis in this regard. The EB-Wolverine connection is almost always handled as a van or bus, depending on the number of connectors. This happens a lot.


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## RRUserious

Guess its my bad that I didn't ask to be accommodated with a bus to Toronto. Granted, I'd have missed LSL. Sad. I know now it isn't a big thing to miss. LSL may be a great ride to some, but to me I wouldn't ever ride it from Chicago to Buffalo again. Once is enough for a lifetime. If a bus had been available when we got into Chicago, I could have been into my destination with lots more time there.


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## mwmnp

NW cannonball said:


> I'm beginning to wonder about all this track work slowing traffic from Minot to Grand Forks. Seems like much more than the Devil's Lake track lift job.
> Is the BNSF's new owner wanting to make the MOT - GFK a viable freight alternative? Either to relieve the main line Fargo - Minot for doing serious upgrades on that route next season. And/or to develop an alternate route for the crude trains to go to Duluth or up into Canada?
> 
> Just speculating - but Warren bought the BNSF for some reason. Surely the Bakken oil traffic was part of the calculation.
> 
> No doubt the BNSF is spending much money on the track work that delays the EB (and their own trains)
> 
> And wondering how the (nobody knows) plans of the BNSF might affect Amtrak's EB.
> 
> Track upgrades -- good. More traffic - bad. In any case waiting out the track work and delays is bad for Amtrak pax on the EB route.


I have read through most of this thread, but not everything, so I apologize in advance if too much of this is repetitive.

BNSF neglected the Minot-Grand Forks-Fargo route for a long, long time, probably because, with the exception of Amtrak, nothing of particularly high priority has regularly run over this segment for years. The substandard condition of the track should have been apparent to alert Amtrak riders well before the much-publicized flooding problems near Churchs Ferry, what with all of the jointed rail that was still in place on the Devils Lake line and the overall bumpier ride that has long been noticeable even on the newer welded rail from Fargo to Grand Forks to Minot. The condition of the track finally caught up to BNSF, forcing them to undertake the vigorous construction that has gone on this year. However, in some ways we should be thankful the delays that the _Empire Builder_ has had to contend with have not been even worse. Grain shipments on the BNSF network are down more than 11% year-to-date (see BNSF carload reports here), and since this is rather significant commodity shipped over the route of the _Empire Builder_, the net number of trains on the tracks in North Dakota has not gone up as much as might be expected given the increased number of crude oil trains.

Going back through history, cycles of neglect followed by renewal and prospects of greater worth in the future are pretty common when discussing the Devils Lake line. For all I know, this process could extend back a century to when the Great Northern decided to build the Surrey Cutoff and make that a part of the transcontinental main, relegating the original alignment through Hillsboro and Devils Lake to a more secondary status with a bigger focus on serving the numerous branch lines that radiated like a vine off of the main.

Anyway, we're obviously in a renewal phase with regard to this line at the present time. The latest plan as far as freight traffic is concerned is to, at some point in the future, get the unions to agree to "run-through" Grand Forks and establish a single crew territory from Minot to Fargo (or Dilworth, MN, site of the primary yard in the Fargo-Moorhead area). This would eliminate the crew change that is now necessary at Grand Forks and mean that only one crew would be required no matter if a train took the Fargo-Minot route by way of New Rockford or by way of Devils Lake. Obviously, as an ultimate consequence, BNSF would basically gain a second main line between Fargo and Minot without having to build a second line mostly from scratch.

To facilitate upgrading the Devils Lake and Hillsboro lines to a secondary main line, a lot of work on sidings will need to be done. Even though the route had numerous sidings befitting a major corridor when built, over the years many were removed from service and several of the remaining ones are not long enough to accommodate contemporary freight trains. On top of this, they still have hand-operated switches, ensuring that meets are about as slow and tedious as possible. Fixing these problems will require time and money, but BNSF is currently talking up the prospects of installing at least 10 long sidings with automatic switches to more efficiently move traffic. Several other BNSF lines have gotten similar treatments in the past, with the most recent analog in the region probably being the Marshall Subdivision, which runs from Willmar, MN to Sioux City, IA. Increased coal, ethanol, and grain traffic in the last decade necessitated fitting many of the sidings on that otherwise "dark" line with automatic switches that can be controlled remotely by the train dispatcher.

Under such changes, the makeup of the traffic on the Devils Lake line probably would not change much from the present day; there would just be more traffic overall. By and large, grain, merchandise, and some lower-priority intermodal would dominate. For the most part, crude oil is not moved on the line presently, and is not expected to be in great numbers in the future, but the future as far as crude-by-rail is concerned can, and likely will, change on a dime. In any event, no crude trains currently go to Duluth-Superior or to Canada by way of BNSF tracks in Minnesota. Crude oil trains have made their way onto the tracks in this region from time to time, however. Typically they are sets of empty cars looking for a place to be put in storage for a while until one of the loading sites farther to the west can take them or one of the destination sites needs them. A couple shortlines in northwest Minnesota that connect with the BNSF network have made out well simply by providing a place to park crude oil tank cars when they are unneeded. The shortlines take in revenue, and BNSF temporarily gets unused cars out of the way.

Now will all of these changes to the Devils Lake and Hillsboro lines come to pass? They may or may not. As mentioned, previous prospects of using this track for bigger and better purposes have been put forward in the past only to largely fail to materialize.

The spectacular rise of shipping crude oil by rail certainly adds a new dimension to what may happen to the line, but this traffic is not guaranteed to keep growing or exist at the present level forever. Namely, the threat of pipelines being built to transport more and more oil out of North Dakota probably looms the largest, but is subject to what occurs with two of the benchmark prices of oil - WTI and Brent - and what the producers feel will yield them the largest profits.

Speaking of the price of oil, the theme in most of the popular media is that "technology" alone made the advance in oil production in North Dakota possible. That's not necessarily untrue, but by far the bigger factor has been the elevated price of oil the world has seen for almost a decade. When prices started quickly rising and looked to stay high for years, geologists and petroleum engineers got an incentive to dig through archived files looking at regions like the Bakken/Three Forks that were known or thought to have significant oil resources, but could only be produced profitably with higher crude oil prices. As a consequence, any strong downward trends in the price of oil would slow drilling down. If prices fell to a certain level, drilling would become nearly completely uneconomical and would have to be curtailed in order to avoid bankrupting the producers. As far as crude-by-rail is concerned, even if such a drop in prices happened for a brief time, shipments would likely still be adversely affected, since in the absence of any new drilling and frac'ing, the hyperbolic decline rates exhibited by tight oil wells such as those in the Bakken/Three Forks would cause total oil production to quickly go into a rapid descent. For more on the decline rates of Bakken/Three Forks wells, see this (page 29), this, and this.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

RRUserious said:


> Guess its my bad that I didn't ask to be accommodated with a bus to Toronto. Granted, I'd have missed LSL. Sad. I know now it isn't a big thing to miss. LSL may be a great ride to some, but to me I wouldn't ever ride it from Chicago to Buffalo again. Once is enough for a lifetime. If a bus had been available when we got into Chicago, I could have been into my destination with lots more time there.


They wouldn't have chartered a bus though, and a van is too small for such a long trip. You would have needed to get to the nearby Greyhound Teriminal on West Harrison. There are buses to Toronto at 17:35 and 0:01.


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## RRUserious

The second of those two would have gotten me out of Chicago about 18 hours earlier. The paid me a cab to the hotel. It could have taken me to Greyhound. Only question is if the amount that was paid to get me from Chicago to Toronto on the rails is up in smoke. And that is what I suspect would have been the case.


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## Swadian Hardcore

RRUserious said:


> The second of those two would have gotten me out of Chicago about 18 hours earlier. The paid me a cab to the hotel. It could have taken me to Greyhound. Only question is if the amount that was paid to get me from Chicago to Toronto on the rails is up in smoke. And that is what I suspect would have been the case.


I know it's too late to say this now, but it's $69 for a last-minute ticket. Not much, as long as Amtrak would've refunded the rest of the train trip with a voucher, at least.

Advance Purchase is still only $59, not much less.


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## RRUserious

Yeh, too late, but the whole thing was a learning experience.


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## NW cannonball

#8 out of Fargo less than 2 hours late! Whee!


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## montana mike

Wow--we could actually have an EB arrival inCHI-town under two hours behind!! But what is happening to #7 in WA today? And #8 in western MT is already almost 3 hours behind.


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## RRUserious

Less than 2 hours makes all connections?


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## montana mike

If they hold the Wolverine a little, perhaps. SInce they have been holding the CL lately for up to 3.5 hours to try to help passengers make connections those folks should be ok as well. Somehow #8 in WI today snuck thru the construction with only a couple hour delay-but if was a Friday night, a time when work does slack off. Not looking too good for #7 in WA this AM though-over 3 hours behind, which may mean a late start from SEA this evening. Even though #8 in western MT is already 93 minutes behind they hopefully won't lose more than another 90 minutes, since weekend work on the tracks is less than the weekdays.


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## RRUserious

"Late is on time"


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## yarrow

RRUserious said:


> "Late is on time"


yup, we are happy to have an eb into chi only 3 hours late and ecstatic with a train only 2 hours late. our standards are not high


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## RRUserious

It is good to lower them for this train. And from what I've read in the past, the California Zephyr finds lots of troubles in its past. That's why I wonder which lines have an unusual record of being really on time. Somewhere in the system must be one. Where the passengers are spoiled and think Amtrak posted schedules actually mean what they say.


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## George Harris

RRUserious said:


> It is good to lower them for this train. And from what I've read in the past, the California Zephyr finds lots of troubles in its past. That's why I wonder which lines have an unusual record of being really on time. Somewhere in the system must be one. Where the passengers are spoiled and think Amtrak posted schedules actually mean what they say.


Don't know about the long distance in general, but the San Joaquins are usually to the minute. Our one CZ ride was not too late getting to Reno eastbound, about one hour late westbound, but early back into Emeryville.

<sp error>


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## RRUserious

Train 6 is on time 1/3 of the time. Clicked thru all the lines on the Amtrak site. Saw one with an average over 12 months of 94 percent. One thing that occurred to me is the pokey lines could mess up the record for the ones with high potential for being ontime. Plus, it also occurred to me that for a lot of these lines, their percentage matches up with airlines. So they are no worse than their major competitor which also takes off late (my last flight was 5 hours late in leaving). It was to Las Vegas. The plane was ready. But air traffic control in Vegas wouldn't clear the plane to take off. Something about adverse wind conditions.


----------



## tim54449

RRUserious said:


> Less than 2 hours makes all connections?



No, the Pere Marquette, train #370, leaves CHI at 4:55 Central Time.


----------



## montana mike

I believe the EB may have been on time on several days this Spring, but certainly during the past couple months if memory serves me correctly it is batting zero. The BNSF folks continue to remind me that even after the construction is suspended this Fall the increased freight traffic (not just the energy trains) should account for about 60-70 minutes in added delays-which considering this summer's track record won't be horrible for sure


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

RRUserious said:


> Train 6 is on time 1/3 of the time. Clicked thru all the lines on the Amtrak site. Saw one with an average over 12 months of 94 percent. One thing that occurred to me is the pokey lines could mess up the record for the ones with high potential for being ontime. Plus, it also occurred to me that for a lot of these lines, their percentage matches up with airlines. So they are no worse than their major competitor which also takes off late (my last flight was 5 hours late in leaving). It was to Las Vegas. The plane was ready. But air traffic control in Vegas wouldn't clear the plane to take off. Something about adverse wind conditions.


Train 6 is pretty bad. I thought it had gotten better.


----------



## montana mike

I fly into and out of ORD fairly frequently in addition to taking the train and I have to admit the vast majority of my flights are within 15 minutes of the schedule, most are on time. Yes, there have been an infrequent cancellation or delay, but most are very close to on time and have been for years. It is the "hassle factor" of traveling by air that makes it less fun these days, not the schedule.

Note: #8(10) let SEA late and is now 2 1/2 hours behind and still hasn't reach WFH yet.


----------



## AlanB

montana mike said:


> The BNSF folks continue to remind me that even after the construction is suspended this Fall the increased freight traffic (not just the energy trains) should account for about 60-70 minutes in added delays-which considering this summer's track record won't be horrible for sure


Me thinks that it's time for Amtrak to remind the BNSF folks that they have a contract with Amtrak to run it on time, even if it means delaying their freights. Construction is a valid, if unwelcome, excuse to delay Amtrak. Increased freight traffic is NOT a valid excuse!


----------



## RRUserious

I wonder now that Berkshire Hathaway owns the railroad, will it be run more responsibly?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> I fly into and out of ORD fairly frequently in addition to taking the train and I have to admit the vast majority of my flights are within 15 minutes of the schedule, most are on time. Yes, there have been an infrequent cancellation or delay, but most are very close to on time and have been for years. It is the "hassle factor" of traveling by air that makes it less fun these days, not the schedule. Note: #8(10) let SEA late and is now 2 1/2 hours behind and still hasn't reach WFH yet.


Same thing with the bus. Greyhound rarely has much delays anymore, unless you get an unreliable G4500, of course. I'm sure most people travelling by train don't care about time since it takes so long anway. But there's still loads of complaints on the Web about Amtrak and VIA Rail delays.

8 (10) has still got the same delay right now, but it's doing OK compared to what could be worse.

Don't get me wrong, the EB is still a great train and my favourite, but westbound is no good because you miss Glacier Park.



AlanB said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The BNSF folks continue to remind me that even after the construction is suspended this Fall the increased freight traffic (not just the energy trains) should account for about 60-70 minutes in added delays-which considering this summer's track record won't be horrible for sure
> 
> 
> 
> Me thinks that it's time for Amtrak to remind the BNSF folks that they have a contract with Amtrak to run it on time, even if it means delaying their freights. Construction is a valid, if unwelcome, excuse to delay Amtrak. Increased freight traffic is NOT a valid excuse!
Click to expand...

Don't expect much from them. BNSF tracks seem to be clogged up, and there's just not enough sidings to get Amtrak through on-time. Complete double-track may be the only viable solution to these delays, plus a heavy overhaul of the FAR-GFK section.

Everything is congested these days, it's not just highways, but railroads and airports as well! At least the plane can fly over most of it, but we all know the problems of air travel.


----------



## montana mike

AlanB said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> The BNSF folks continue to remind me that even after the construction is suspended this Fall the increased freight traffic (not just the energy trains) should account for about 60-70 minutes in added delays-which considering this summer's track record won't be horrible for sure
> 
> 
> 
> Me thinks that it's time for Amtrak to remind the BNSF folks that they have a contract with Amtrak to run it on time, even if it means delaying their freights. Construction is a valid, if unwelcome, excuse to delay Amtrak. Increased freight traffic is NOT a valid excuse!
Click to expand...

A frequent comment in the military is that you can't put 10 pounds of you know what into a 5 pound bag. I am sure buried in the "fine print" of BNSF's contractual obligations are some "outs" for the RR due to freight traffic increases. BNSF has been owned by BH for several years now and I certainly have not seen any improvements in the on time performance of the EB, in fact just the opposite. As one of the BH senior managers said last year: They own and run a profit center, not a railroad. That should give us some indication of their priorities.

:-(


----------



## montana mike

Quick update on #8 in MN this AM--running just under 6 hours behind--a very slow trek across ND last night.

:-(


----------



## Guest

They own and run a profit center, not a railroad. That should give us some indication of their priorities.

The railroad cannot function as a charity; Amtrak doesn't pay enough to keep the signals lit nor the track in good shape. BNSF's profits feed the employees that work for them, and benefit their suppliers - and in turn, all of us.

Let's keep the priorities straight here: were it not for BNSF's "profit center", there wouldn't be an Empire Builder to run.


----------



## montana mike

I couldn't agree more. No profits no railroad, no Amtrak.........I just wish Amtrak would take a long term look at the schedule for the EB (I fully understand the EB doesn't operate in a vacuum, but is part of an entire system). There are no surprises here. BNSF has tried to keep Amtrak management fully informed of the long term plans for the Hi-Line. What is happening on the Hi-Line, as we all agree, is not a "one off" event that is going to disappear in a matter of weeks like a Spring flood or a snowstorm or a derailment. Perhaps the delays will be lessened to some extent come later this Fall when construction and maintenance efforts pause for the winter, but both BNSF and Amtrak need to come to grips with the cold hard facts that the capacity of the Hi-line track system is being pushed very hard and despite both organizations best efforts to mitigate the delays and missed connections the frustrations will likely increase. The good news is BNSF's business is increasing by a large amount, the bad news is the need for continuous improvements, more maintenance and increased freight traffic must all be factored into a schedule that is reasonable for the EB to follow.

Update at about 1 PM MDT: #8 in WI is now approaching 7 hours behind--not a good start to the week!

:-(


----------



## calwatch

Basically, something will have to give. You can't make both the CS connection on the west and the Capitol Limited on the east, but which connection do you screw then?

I agree with building in some layover time midroute - add some buffer time at each of the smoke breaks. When the train is on time, it's sometimes nice to walk around for half an hour or so to stretch your legs and get some exercise, and maybe even a quick meal at one of the restaurants in a small town. Of course, for people that make the trip regularly, that could be annoying to just sit in, say, Minot for an hour.


----------



## yarrow

calwatch said:


> could be annoying to just sit in, say, Minot for an hour.


why not minot? (the reason: it's freezin'). sorry couldn't resist, my mom was born in minot


----------



## PRR 60

Amtrak's contract does not require "on time" operation, and it certainly does not require BNSF to turn away business to meet Amtrak's schedule. It requires that Amtrak be given priority over freight traffic. Being given priority does not necessarily relate to meeting Amtrak's schedule when the railroad is clogged with trains and that is compounded by construction.


----------



## RRUserious

Is it my imagination or is there some very bad track in North Dakota. Walking places going through there, it seemed like I was being thrown around. Never had that much trouble walking on a ship,not even a very small one.


----------



## montana mike

I take the EB frequently. There are spots, especially in far eastern MT and around Williston that I would consider worse than normal for sure, but not any worse that segments I have experienced on other LD trains in the past . Interestingly, the EB often chugs along at normal track speed (79 mph) thru most of those "rocky" areas (perhaps that makes things somewhat worse for the ride then). Where the train slows down considerably is around Devil's lake-we all know about the water challenges there and what BNSF is doing to mitigate these issues, and between Fargo and Grand Forks-a combination of lots of traffic and rails that do indeed need upgrading.


----------



## RRUserious

I would guess with the lost time waiting for freight to take its priority, they can't slow down much for passenger comfort. I guess I'll s ay I hope that quality of ride isn't typical of Amtrak as a whole. That would be another reason to drive or fly. The bumpiness of flight depends on air conditions. Those are sometimes very good, sometimes awful, but they do *vary.* The track doesn't really change much. If it is bumpy one day, it will be bumpy the next. "Mitigating" would make the ontime situation worse for a while. Just like road construction. Again, Amtrak needs passenger quality rail which it will never get.


----------



## montana mike

Good Point--the oil in the tank cars doesn't care if the ride is bumpy!

I do think BNSF is trying to improve their track situation, if for nothing else a well maintained and high quality track bed and rails mean fewer derailments and better on-time performance for THEIR trains as well.


----------



## RRUserious

But their improvements are offset by the huge volume of traffic they want to send over it. It seems like a losing battle.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

calwatch said:


> Basically, something will have to give. You can't make both the CS connection on the west and the Capitol Limited on the east, but which connection do you screw then?
> I agree with building in some layover time midroute - add some buffer time at each of the smoke breaks. When the train is on time, it's sometimes nice to walk around for half an hour or so to stretch your legs and get some exercise, and maybe even a quick meal at one of the restaurants in a small town. Of course, for people that make the trip regularly, that could be annoying to just sit in, say, Minot for an hour.


Take out the CS connection, keep the CL. Because the CL is a direct link eastwards, while the CS runs at a right angle. Passengers that really need to get south from PDX can ride a Greyhound bus from the station (GLI-PUT) right besides Amtrak-PDX.

Passengers between PDX and VAN can ride the Cascades.


----------



## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> calwatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, something will have to give. You can't make both the CS connection on the west and the Capitol Limited on the east, but which connection do you screw then?
> I agree with building in some layover time midroute - add some buffer time at each of the smoke breaks. When the train is on time, it's sometimes nice to walk around for half an hour or so to stretch your legs and get some exercise, and maybe even a quick meal at one of the restaurants in a small town. Of course, for people that make the trip regularly, that could be annoying to just sit in, say, Minot for an hour.
> 
> 
> 
> Take out the CS connection, keep the CL. Because the CL is a direct link eastwards, while the CS runs at a right angle. Passengers that really need to get south from PDX can ride a Greyhound bus from the station (GLI-PUT) right besides Amtrak-PDX.
> 
> Passengers between PDX and VAN can ride the Cascades.
Click to expand...

The other argument, though, is that the LSL could serve as at least somewhat of a replacement of the CL connection. There's no train service from PDX EUG south other than the CS. Some people have an aversion to buses, and Amtrak may find it wiser to preserve as many train connections as possible, and the LSL is a more adequate replacement for eastbound connections than the Cascades is for west coast connections.

Edit: I forgot that some of the Cascades run to EUG.


----------



## CHamilton

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Take out the CS connection, keep the CL. Because the CL is a direct link eastwards, while the CS runs at a right angle.


There is some logic to this, although anecdotally, I've seen a considerable number of people who are making that connection. What Amtrak needs, though, are options that don't depend on the hub-and-spoke model. Sending all of the cross-country trains through CHI (with the exception of the NOL connection to the Crescent) guarantees connection problems. Returning trains like the Sunset East and the Pioneer to the schedule would lessen Amtrak's dependence on CHI and NOL, although it wouldn't solve the CS/EB connection problem. For that, you'd need some sort of Spokane-Bend-Klamath Falls train, with (let's dream here) connections to Sacramento-Bakersfield-LA.


----------



## Ryan

I'm sure Amtrak has the data on which connection is used more often. Also, recall that the Cap and LSL are supposed to swap at some point. Even with a few hour later arrival time, you can get anywhere on the east coast from WAS after the Cap arrives, so I'd think that preserving the CS connection, breaking the LSL connection (in the early slot) and keeping the Cap connection with a late evening departure) makes the most sense.


----------



## Anderson

The problem with the LSL is that there's no passable, guaranteed connection past WAS (and none period past RVR/NPN-VAB). Unless the Meteor gets a schedule switch, connecting with the LSL and not the CL would kill off a respectable number of plausible connections between the Southeast and the Midwest (i.e. Atlanta now becomes more problematic, Miami is gone., etc.)


----------



## Ryan

That's the beauty of making the Cap the late train. It runs faster and hits the east coast in the middle(ish), not way the hell up in NY.

So, take the current Cap schedule and push it 3 hours to the right, giving you a LSL-esque 9:40 departure. Assuming all things are equal, that gives you a 4:10 arrival into DC. You've got a good connection to the Crescent at 6:30 and a good connection to the Meteor at 7:30. You're right at the beginning of the evening rush, so there's plenty of connectivity northward as well.


----------



## amamba

Ryan said:


> That's the beauty of making the Cap the late train. It runs faster and hits the east coast in the middle(ish), not way the hell up in NY.
> So, take the current Cap schedule and push it 3 hours to the right, giving you a LSL-esque 9:40 departure. Assuming all things are equal, that gives you a 4:10 arrival into DC. You've got a good connection to the Crescent at 6:30 and a good connection to the Meteor at 7:30. You're right at the beginning of the evening rush, so there's plenty of connectivity northward as well.


I have yet to take the cap because there is no way I want to get off a LD train and THEN slog up the corridor on a regional train from WAS. But I would wonder what percentage of folks are continuing on to other points on the NEC from the CL and LSL vs what percentage are connecting to another LD train and trying to go beyond the corridor.


----------



## Rail Freak

Ryan said:


> That's the beauty of making the Cap the late train. It runs faster and hits the east coast in the middle(ish), not way the hell up in NY.
> So, take the current Cap schedule and push it 3 hours to the right, giving you a LSL-esque 9:40 departure. Assuming all things are equal, that gives you a 4:10 arrival into DC. You've got a good connection to the Crescent at 6:30 and a good connection to the Meteor at 7:30. You're right at the beginning of the evening rush, so there's plenty of connectivity northward as well.


Being from Florida, I'd vote for that!!!!


----------



## Linda T

Looks like they held the CDL for the EB today. The #8 came in to CHI at 7:32, and the CDL left at 7:58. Now the #50 is 2 hours and 13 minutes behind from the start.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calwatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, something will have to give. You can't make both the CS connection on the west and the Capitol Limited on the east, but which connection do you screw then?
> I agree with building in some layover time midroute - add some buffer time at each of the smoke breaks. When the train is on time, it's sometimes nice to walk around for half an hour or so to stretch your legs and get some exercise, and maybe even a quick meal at one of the restaurants in a small town. Of course, for people that make the trip regularly, that could be annoying to just sit in, say, Minot for an hour.
> 
> 
> 
> Take out the CS connection, keep the CL. Because the CL is a direct link eastwards, while the CS runs at a right angle. Passengers that really need to get south from PDX can ride a Greyhound bus from the station (GLI-PUT) right besides Amtrak-PDX.
> 
> Passengers between PDX and VAN can ride the Cascades.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The other argument, though, is that the LSL could serve as at least somewhat of a replacement of the CL connection. There's no train service from PDX EUG south other than the CS. Some people have an aversion to buses, and Amtrak may find it wiser to preserve as many train connections as possible, and the LSL is a more adequate replacement for eastbound connections than the Cascades is for west coast connections.
> 
> Edit: I forgot that some of the Cascades run to EUG.
Click to expand...

South of EUG? Just run a Thruway or something, that might work. Not going to be a big surchage to the fare, and get only to Redding because south of that Greyhound 600 duplicates much of the CS.

I am sure passenger are willing to ride a convenient and well-timed Greyhound connection. Bus-hate is greatly exaggerated.



CHamilton said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Take out the CS connection, keep the CL. Because the CL is a direct link eastwards, while the CS runs at a right angle.
> 
> 
> 
> There is some logic to this, although anecdotally, I've seen a considerable number of people who are making that connection. What Amtrak needs, though, are options that don't depend on the hub-and-spoke model. Sending all of the cross-country trains through CHI (with the exception of the NOL connection to the Crescent) guarantees connection problems. Returning trains like the Sunset East and the Pioneer to the schedule would lessen Amtrak's dependence on CHI and NOL, although it wouldn't solve the CS/EB connection problem. For that, you'd need some sort of Spokane-Bend-Klamath Falls train, with (let's dream here) connections to Sacramento-Bakersfield-LA.
Click to expand...

If Amtrak could do that, it would be great. But we all know it won't happen anytime soon. So you have to take advantage of private companies like Greyhound which are not subject to as much governemnt red tape.

If Amtrak dosen't want to cooperate with Greyhound, then it will not be good for either side. Don't view Greyhound as your enemy.



Anderson said:


> The problem with the LSL is that there's no passable, guaranteed connection past WAS (and none period past RVR/NPN-VAB). Unless the Meteor gets a schedule switch, connecting with the LSL and not the CL would kill off a respectable number of plausible connections between the Southeast and the Midwest (i.e. Atlanta now becomes more problematic, Miami is gone., etc.)


Atlanta dosen't really matter here because only train-joyriders would take the EB to CHI, LSL to NYP, the the Crescent to ATL. Geography is simple yet important here.



Linda T said:


> Looks like they held the CDL for the EB today. The #8 came in to CHI at 7:32, and the CDL left at 7:58. Now the #50 is 2 hours and 13 minutes behind from the start.


At least passengers made their connections. Amtrak timetables are so long and unreliable that most passengers don't care about time anyway. I sure don't care if my train is late, unless it's over 8 hours late. But I don't like sitting on a stationary train for 2 hours.

Then again, pax could have gone into Chicago or to get some food.


----------



## montana mike

#8 in WI is just under 4 hours behind-as would be expected for a weekday. My BNSF guy updated me on their track work schedule thru this Fall. Most of the 2013 maintenance/improvements should wrap up around 10/28 on the hi-line, except for one project, which runs thru the second week of November. This is the person who gave me the original delay estimates for this summer, which have been almost exactly right on the mark (unfortunately). So we should hope to see some additional improvement (not elimination-remember the additional freight traffic is a permanent change) of timekeeping after these projects are suspended for the winter.

Glad to see that Amtrak tries to hold other trains to make connections when the EB is not horrendously late, but sorry to see these trains late for their schedules. Oh, well.....


----------



## CHamilton

BNSF budgets $335 million for capex projects in Montana, North Dakota



> BNSF Railway Co. yesterday announced the portions of its record $4.3 billion capital spending budget for 2013 that are allocated for key projects in two states.
> 
> The Class I plans to spend $220 million to improve and expand rail capacity in North Dakota. Planned work includes constructing three sidings west of Minot near Manitou, Tioga, and Palermo, extending sidings near Glen Ullin and Hillsboro, and improving six sidings between Minot and Grand Forks.
> 
> The railroad also plans to raise 10 miles of track over Devils Lake by one to five feet to keep track above any rising water; upgrade a line between Berthold and Northgate on the Canadian border; install Centralized Traffic Control signal systems on three sidings near Devils Lake, Hillsboro and Towner; construct a new double crossover track east of Williston; and lengthen existing tracks or add new tracks at yards in Mandan, Minot and Williston.
> 
> In addition, BNSF expects to surface and/or undercut about 1,900 miles of track, replace 315 miles of rail and 415,000 ties, and complete signal upgrades for positive train control (PTC) implementation.
> 
> The railroad also announced it will spend $115 million on maintenance and rail capacity expansion projects in Montana. Planned work includes constructing three new unit-train staging tracks about three miles east of Glasgow; adding machine vision technology at Miles City to help detect damaged equipment; surfacing more than 2,300 miles of track and performing undercutting work; replacing nearly 100 miles of rail and about 310,000 ties; and completing signal upgrades for PTC.


----------



## montana mike

Seems to confirm what my local BNSF guys have been telling me--that this is a lonnnnnnnnng term project and that BNSF is planning on the energy boom in MT and ND being around for many decades. You don't spend over $4 billion on a short term project.

My local guys also just told me that some of the work will even continue thru parts of the winter--yup. They can do a lot of the siding work (grading, hauling in fill and base materials, etc...) until the temps get really, really cold, so there is clearly some urgency in their efforts.

I also see now why they will be working well into November on some projects. Seeing the continuing delays in CHI and now even SEA this past week EB travelers will need to be prepared for a trip with a fair number of "slow orders" for many, many months to come.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

They should consider double-tracking the most congested segments and increasing passenger train speed to 90 mph. This crush of capacity is turning the High Line to the railroad version of Harbor Freeway.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Look, 8 (16) is actually on-time! Only two minutes late out of WPT! It made up a delay of up to 1:35.

http://dixielandsoftware.net/cgi-bin/gettrain.pl?seltrain=8&selyear=2013&selmonth=08&selday=16

Good job, EB!


----------



## tonys96

We are on 8 right now. Between wolf point and Williston and are damned near on time!

Had a great wine and cheese, then our Portland sleeper pulled a prank on one of our fellow pax that was hilarious.


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> then our Portland sleeper pulled a prank on one of our fellow pax that was hilarious.


Details, man!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tonys96 said:


> We are on 8 right now. Between wolf point and Williston and are damned near on time!
> Had a great wine and cheese, then our Portland sleeper pulled a prank on one of our fellow pax that was hilarious.


Do tell!


----------



## tonys96

About an hour and half late into Shelby.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

tonys96 said:


> About an hour and half late into Shelby.


Something bad happened between WTN and STN.


----------



## montana mike

Looking at #8 trekking thru MN/WI this AM, pretty much the usual couple hours delays for the weekend traffic-nothing remarkable yet!. Has a decent shot to actually arrive in CHI just under 2 hours behind. The westbound 7/27 trains in OR and WA are running considerably behind their normal pace though (#7 is almost 3 hours late). Looks like they may arrive in SEA and PDX a couple hours late.


----------



## amamba

tonys96 said:


> We are on 8 right now. Between wolf point and Williston and are damned near on time! Had a great wine and cheese, then our Portland sleeper pulled a prank on one of our fellow pax that was hilarious.


What did you do?! Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Updates: Right now 8 (17) is almost on-time again. Right now 20 minutes late going through GGW.

7 (17) is 3 hours late with Heritage 184, and 8 (16) looks like it will arrive Chicago around the same time as the 6, about 6:00 PM. Don't know what delayed the 6.


----------



## Nathanael

montana mike said:


> Seems to confirm what my local BNSF guys have been telling me--that this is a lonnnnnnnnng term project and that BNSF is planning on the energy boom in MT and ND being around for many decades. You don't spend over $4 billion on a short term project.


Bad bet. Sigh. Oh well, businesses make such bad bets all the time.


----------



## George Harris

Swadian Hardcore said:


> They should consider double-tracking the most congested segments and increasing passenger train speed to 90 mph. This crush of capacity is turning the High Line to the railroad version of Harbor Freeway.


Double tracking, yes, at least starting with something like an alternating double-single-double-single-etc project. Unless you get many miles of continuous 90 mph running, you really get very little out of it. Plus, that would mean a complete upgrade to the signal system beyond that currently needed and in place for 79 mph running. Both of these require lots of money.


----------



## montana mike

Nathanael said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to confirm what my local BNSF guys have been telling me--that this is a lonnnnnnnnng term project and that BNSF is planning on the energy boom in MT and ND being around for many decades. You don't spend over $4 billion on a short term project.
> 
> 
> 
> Bad bet. Sigh. Oh well, businesses make such bad bets all the time.
Click to expand...

Not sure why you would make that statement. ALL of the firms who are in ND are planning on many decades in this region. I again spoke with my neighbor (just this weekend), who owns an oil service company, and he reiterated that Bakken will be around for over 100 years, with BOTH Natural gas and oil. WB doesn't plunk down billions on poorly estimated "bets". I have seen first hand now, several times, what they are doing in this region and it is like nothing I have seen before. BTW--BNSF, thru a leasing company has also ordered a record number of tankers to be delivered thru 2020.

Footnote: The ND Govt folks estimated this past month that only about 8% of the wells that are to be developed in the initial pause of Bakken have been completed and that it will take over 10 years before they complete the first phase of the remaining development. Further, it will be beyond 2025 before the maximum capacity of these efforts are achieved. This report was a product of both the ND, MT and USCGS resources.


----------



## RRUserious

They have "double track". Where do you think Amtrak sits and waits for the BNSF to pass by? Oh, sorry, you mean so Amtrak doesn't have to sit and wait. Yeh, that's a pretty good idea. Must be fun juggling the freight trains traveling both directions, too.


----------



## montana mike

Anyone know why #7 is just pulling into SEA now--over 4 hours behind? Ouch, that will almost surely cause a big departure delay for todays #8 out of SEA. #8 coming into CHI this evening has a good shot to stay under 3 hours behind. Not terrible for a Monday!


----------



## Ryan

RRUserious said:


> They have "double track". Where do you think Amtrak sits and waits for the BNSF to pass by?


Passing sidings, which aren't "double track".


----------



## Steve4031

montana mike said:


> Anyone know why #7 is just pulling into SEA now--over 4 hours behind? Ouch, that will almost surely cause a big departure delay for todays #8 out of SEA. #8 coming into CHI this evening has a good shot to stay under 3 hours behind. Not terrible for a Monday!


I have a friend departing on 8. He's at the station now. How late do you think 7 will be.


----------



## yarrow

Steve4031 said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know why #7 is just pulling into SEA now--over 4 hours behind? Ouch, that will almost surely cause a big departure delay for todays #8 out of SEA. #8 coming into CHI this evening has a good shot to stay under 3 hours behind. Not terrible for a Monday!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a friend departing on 8. He's at the station now. How late do you think 7 will be.
Click to expand...

 8 is supposed to depart sea about 2 hrs late but that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the usual delays on down the line


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

yarrow said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know why #7 is just pulling into SEA now--over 4 hours behind? Ouch, that will almost surely cause a big departure delay for todays #8 out of SEA. #8 coming into CHI this evening has a good shot to stay under 3 hours behind. Not terrible for a Monday!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a friend departing on 8. He's at the station now. How late do you think 7 will be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 8 is supposed to depart sea about 2 hrs late but that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the usual delays on down the line
Click to expand...

 You might be right. The 8 still hasn't departed, and shows "Overdue" on the Status Maps. Hopefully it can board passengers and get going soon.


----------



## tonys96

amamba said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are on 8 right now. Between wolf point and Williston and are damned near on time! Had a great wine and cheese, then our Portland sleeper pulled a prank on one of our fellow pax that was hilarious.
> 
> 
> 
> What did you do?! Inquiring minds want to know.
Click to expand...

We arrived at MSP just about two and a half hours late Monday morning.

Will explain prank when I get home and have computer. Too much to type on iPad.


----------



## yarrow

status map back to the cheery all red for the eb this am. it shows 7 as stuck in spk. does this mean a bus trip from spk to sea/pdx today in order for an on-time 8/28 this evening after turning in spk?


----------



## montana mike

Look like a brutal day indeed for ALL of the Builders today. #7 chugging along in WA towards SEA is almost 5 1/2 hours behind, Yes, #27 shows a service disruption, so that likely means a bus trip for some folks (wonder why they let #7 go to SEA so late though). #8 in Western MT is already 2 hours behind this AM and they haven't even gotten into the slow orders region. meanwhile #8 left MSP this AM 3 1/2 hours behind while #7 chugging thru ND was 2 hours late (again, still to go thru most of the construction zones).

Not good at all. Plus, heat related slow orders also likely to go into effect today according to my BNSF guy--with temps well into the 90's thru much of MT and ND. This sucker just can't catch a break!!

:-(


----------



## RRUserious

While flying home from Portland, I reconsidered the possibility of a trip on Amtrak with a sleeper. Costs approximating what first class on Delta costs. Takes many days. First class in the air can never match a roomette for comfort. So, it seems almost like a tossup. It is just a fact you need all the patience in the world for the schedule disruptions.


----------



## montana mike

Aaaack, things are getting worse. #7 still has not reached SEA and is now just under 6 hours behind, which means the departing #8 tonight will be very late starting out--ouch! #8 in WI is well over 5 hours late and #7 heading westbound departed CHI just under 2 hours behind!!!


----------



## zephyr17

I'll be interested to see how fast (or not) they turn the train in Seattle. I don't think 8 will get out of Seattle before 9 or so tonight.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Aaaack, things are getting worse. #7 still has not reached SEA and is now just under 6 hours behind, which means the departing #8 tonight will be very late starting out--ouch! #8 in WI is well over 5 hours late and #7 heading westbound departed CHI just under 2 hours behind!!!


maybe we should ask john bobinyec to delete the eb from his status maps and solari boards as it is just too painful to look at


----------



## yarrow

zephyr17 said:


> I'll be interested to see how fast (or not) they turn the train in Seattle. I don't think 8 will get out of Seattle before 9 or so tonight.


and why (lack of buses?) did they bus 27 spk to pdx but not 7 spk to sea. if the train were turned in spk could have had an on time departure tonight


----------



## jebr

Also looks like the 7 left CHI an hour and a half down today. That doesn't help it out at all.

Amtrak really needs to get a service alert on this train, now. If it's this late consistently, better to have customers in the know and able to reconsider than to make customers mad and not have them ever consider Amtrak again.


----------



## CHamilton

And if the EB doesn't have troubles already, there is a forest fire burning near Leavenworth, WA. As far as I can tell, it has not affected any trains yet, but locals are being told to be ready to evacuate.


----------



## RRUserious

Argument for the southern route?


----------



## gn2276

There was buses to Portland and the whole train set came into Seattle being pulled by a BNSF engine due to HEP problems on two engines.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

It's a bad day for Amtrak trains across the board. 5 (20), 5 (19), and 4 (19) all suffered massive delays as well.


----------



## yarrow

Swadian Hardcore said:


> It's a bad day for Amtrak trains across the board. 5 (20), 5 (19), and 4 (19) all suffered massive delays as well.


judging by the status maps today looks to be worse. i feel for the operating and obs employees on the eb whose home and family life has to be taking a big hit from the delays


----------



## Steve4031

8 is running 4 hours plus late this morning into Minneapolis. I have buddy on this train who is connecting to 30. Wonder what will happen with him?


----------



## Ispolkom

Mrs. Ispolkom and I just finished breakfast at the Izaak Walton Inn, and given how late #8 is, it looks like we'll have lunch here too. I wonder if the BNSF business train we saw stopped here yesterday is affected by the delays.

The first two legs on the Empire Builder (MSP-SEA and PDX-ESM) were on time, but I knew it was too good to last.

Oh well, better stuck here than in Glasgow, and now I'm really glad we booked a roomette for the day trip between Essex and Minot.


----------



## CHamilton

Ispolkom said:


> Mrs. Ispolkom and I just finished breakfast at the Izaak Walton Inn, and given how late #8 is, it looks like we'll have lunch here too. ...Oh well, better stuck here than in Glasgow, and now I'm really glad we booked a roomette for the day trip between Essex and Minot.


Yes, at least you can have some huckleberry cobbler! Too bad about the delays, but Essex is a really nice place to stay while waiting.


----------



## yarrow

Steve4031 said:


> 8 is running 4 hours plus late this morning into Minneapolis. I have buddy on this train who is connecting to 30. Wonder what will happen with him?


lately they have been holding 30 though i don't think they will do it for a 4+ hour late eb. if 30 is missed they might put him up and feed him in chi and stick him on next day's 30 or i won't forget the time we were on a late eb and they put us on a cute little 18 hr bus ride to dc


----------



## amamba

CHamilton said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Ispolkom and I just finished breakfast at the Izaak Walton Inn, and given how late #8 is, it looks like we'll have lunch here too. ...Oh well, better stuck here than in Glasgow, and now I'm really glad we booked a roomette for the day trip between Essex and Minot.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, at least you can have some huckleberry cobbler! Too bad about the delays, but Essex is a really nice place to stay while waiting.
Click to expand...

Glasgow will forever hold a dear place in my hard to my unexpected 20 hour stay.  But yes, there is truly nothing thing of merit. Sorry Montanans.


----------



## amamba

Do OBS employees get paid by the hour? I think the answer is yes, right?

So at the very least, when there is a delay, they do get paid for the additional hours worked? I felt super bad for the OBS on my late EB last year because I was thinking that must lose out in tips for things that are not even their fault. And our OBS was AMAZING through that ordeal.


----------



## montana mike

Excellent points about the Amtrak employees. We tend to focus on OUR issues with the delays and missed connections. These folks are living this mess every day now. The 4-6 hour (or more) daily delays, missed connections, total disruption of their "normal schedules" must be miserable and taking a toll on them all.

Looking at ALL of the EBs this AM-every one is very late, with the eastbound #8 somewhere in MT around 5 hours behind (normally in WFH around 7:24 AM, now expected some time after 1 PM today)--I can imagine this one will be very late when it finally arrives in CHI late tomorrow night, since it still must run thru the gauntlet in eastern MT and ND, which should add about 3 more hours to their misery. Once this mess snowballs into this type of situation I wonder how Amtrak will recover? Today's #7 currently still in Eastern WA will again arrive in SEA almost as late as yesterday's train, which will likely mean #8's departure tonight will again be many hours behind, which just perpetuates the disastrous timekeeping (or lack thereof).

I asked my BNSF guy today if the host RR is doing something to cause these additional delays and he was emphatic that BNSF was trying to do everything they could to help the Amtrak trains, but once they get so far out of their slots there isn't much that can be done. He also said Amtrak equipment problems have also plagued several EBs over the past few days as well.


----------



## yarrow

7 is over 5 hours late to minot. would think it would be a cinch to turn in spk tonight. we'll see


----------



## montana mike

I was surprised they didn't turn #7 yesterday in SPK. Today's #8, just left WFH a short time ago--just under 5 hours behind schedule, with all of the slower zones ahead of it. It wouldn't be out of the question to see an arrival in CHI tomorrow night between 10 and 11 PM!


----------



## yarrow

ok, 7 which is last listed as leaving minot more than 7 hours late has disappeared from the status map and 7/27 heading to sea/pdx which had been shown as west of spokane on both routes has now disappeared also


----------



## tonys96

We were lucky, on # 28/8 arriving in MSP just two and a half hours late on Sunday morning.. Prayers do work!


----------



## yarrow

i did learn that on-times buses from spk to sea/pdx will take folks west tonight and that there is no eta for 7 into spk. just a little nugget for eb junkies(ok for montana mike and me)


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

8 (20) is still hovering around 5 hours late. Why did this train skip LWA, EPH, SPT, LIB, WGL, ESM, and CUT? Did it really skip all those stops or is this just a Status Maps glitch?

Ispolkom is really in trouble if the train actually skipped ESM!

Edit: 7 (20) is now showing a Service Disruption! Last report was at MOT, a full 7 hours 11 minutes late! Anyone know what happened?


----------



## Ryan

The train didn't skip any stops.


----------



## Steve4031

8 is due to arrive Chicago on 8:30. My friend states that he has been rebooked on 48 for his connection to Cleveland. He was notified of this at milwaukee. He also has sleeper space.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ryan said:


> The train didn't skip any stops.


I'm glad it didn't! Must be a glitch, then.


----------



## RRUserious

If it gets far behind, the passengers on board will be served the food meant for an on-time schedule. Result: Passengers who booked a sleeper including paid-for dinner will now get some cheap substitute. And no refund for not delivering the hot dinner. That's what I got.


----------



## montana mike

As we feared--#8 in ND this AM is about 8 hours behind--arrrrrrrrgh. And #7 yesterday appears to be turning in SPK today because it was almost 8 hours behind as well.

No way to run a RR--sadly.......


----------



## amamba

RRUserious said:


> If it gets far behind, the passengers on board will be served the food meant for an on-time schedule. Result: Passengers who booked a sleeper including paid-for dinner will now get some cheap substitute. And no refund for not delivering the hot dinner. That's what I got.


Call customer relations after the trip and you will get a voucher.

Sorry you are so far behind.


----------



## Ispolkom

We arrived in Minot today on #8 at 5 am, 8 hours late. One reason we lost additional time overnight was the train going slow by several work crews adding track and replacing ties between Stanley and Minot. I'm not used to middle-of-the-night maintenance of way, but I suppose that they work when they can.

It was a beautiful night, lit by a bright moon, but still not one of my favorite trips. I hope Saturday's train east isn't as late.


----------



## JayPea

amamba said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Ispolkom and I just finished breakfast at the Izaak Walton Inn, and given how late #8 is, it looks like we'll have lunch here too. ...Oh well, better stuck here than in Glasgow, and now I'm really glad we booked a roomette for the day trip between Essex and Minot.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, at least you can have some huckleberry cobbler! Too bad about the delays, but Essex is a really nice place to stay while waiting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Glasgow will forever hold a dear place in my hard to my unexpected 20 hour stay.  But yes, there is truly nothing thing of merit. Sorry Montanans.
Click to expand...


Reminds me of a time several years ago, when an eastbound (I believe) EB had a perfect storm of events in the hinterlands of Eastern Washington: The lead locomotive died, which of course meant waiting for a replacement from BNSF, which in turn also died. Add of course crews timing out and it resulted in a large wait, 10-12 hours, I believe, at the town of Wilson Creek. I wasn't on the train, but couldn't help thinking that Wilson Creek was a devil* of a place to be stranded. :lol:  :

*Wilson Creek High School's nickname for its athletic teams, what few of them there are, is the Devils. :lol:


----------



## JayPea

I don't understand why Amtrak can't issue service alerts for the ongoing trackwork. Those of us that have been around the block on Amtrak know what's happening with late trains and why, and know that the EB this time of year will be hours late, regardless of direction. But a newbie to Amtrak travel would be unlikely to know this, with missed connections and increasing frustration levels a result. I have to wonder how many newbies have said "Never again!" to Amtrak travel simply because they had no clue what was going on with the EB.


----------



## montana mike

I had a brief discussion with an Amtrak CS rep yesterday-right after I purchased my ticket for an EB adventure later this Fall and asked just that question. She was verrrrry well aware of the EB's troubles this summer and the missed connections (which she said have really made a mess of trying to get people to their ultimate destinations). She either did not know or would not say why AMtrak has not put out some sort of service bulletin, but she did agree this was not a short term issue, as the BNSF people had recently briefed Amtrak officials about actually stepping up the pace of track work throughout many places on the hi-line in order to meet huge increases in rail traffic over the next couple years. Ouch!!

It certainly would seem to make the most sense to alert people to this fact, but then again, I would also think this would effect ticket sales if Amtrak admitted that the EB could be as much as 8 hours late on a trip.......


----------



## jebr

It seems like the crazy (over 3.5 hour) delays could be mitigated if they would just always turn in Spokane. Not ideal, but maybe Amtrak simply always turns in Spokane and bustitutes the rest of the way. (An extra set in Seattle/Portland would also work, if that's possible.)

If Amtrak could turn the train so that it hits the construction on time, that would help a lot. This isn't all BNSF's fault.


----------



## Rail Freak

I'll be leaving WGL tonight on #7. Received an e-mail & phone message this morning saying the train will be 46 minutes late. I have a feeling that it will be much longer than that!!!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Hopefully the Beer is Cold and the Snacks are Good in WGL while you wait for the New Year, er the Empire Builder! Good luck, we look forward to your Adventure across the Wilds of Montana and North Dakota! ^_^


----------



## Ryan

jebr said:


> It seems like the crazy (over 3.5 hour) delays could be mitigated if they would just always turn in Spokane. Not ideal, but maybe Amtrak simply always turns in Spokane and bustitutes the rest of the way. (An extra set in Seattle/Portland would also work, if that's possible.)
> If Amtrak could turn the train so that it hits the construction on time, that would help a lot. This isn't all BNSF's fault.


Or do what they did last year and scrounge up an extra set of equipment so that the eastbound trains can always start on time without having to wait for equipment.
Has enough equipment been lost in the past year to stop this?


----------



## CHamilton

#8 is close to 10 hours late out of Detroit Lakes.

* DLK * * 3 310A * 1255P Departed: 9 hours and 45 minutes late.
Edited to fix station info. Too many lakes in that part of the world.


----------



## jebr

CHamilton said:


> #8 is close to 10 hours late out of Devil's Lake.
> 
> * DLK * * 3 310A * 1255P Departed: 9 hours and 45 minutes late.


DLK would be Detroit Lakes, actually. Will be interesting to see how it does through Minnesota here. Seems like every connection will be missed here...hotels will be loving Amtrak tonight!


----------



## RRUserious

jebr said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> #8 is close to 10 hours late out of Devil's Lake.
> 
> * DLK * * 3 310A * 1255P Departed: 9 hours and 45 minutes late.
> 
> 
> 
> DLK would be Detroit Lakes, actually. Will be interesting to see how it does through Minnesota here. Seems like every connection will be missed here...hotels will be loving Amtrak tonight!
Click to expand...

Late trains aren't everybody's misfortune. Berkshire Hathaway should own some of those hotels too that their coal trains will make business for!


----------



## Empire Builder tracker

This train has been cursed since Seattle!

* SEATTLE * * 1 440P * 955P Departed: 5 hours and 15 minutes late.* EDMONDS * * 1 512P * 1029P Departed: 5 hours and 17 minutes late.* EVERETT * * 1 539P * 1102P Departed: 5 hours and 23 minutes late.* LEAVENWORTH * * 1 800P * 848P Departed: 4 hours and 48 minutes late.* WENATCHEE 1 832P 1 842P 202A 211A Departed: 5 hours and 29 minutes late.* EPHRATA * * 1 942P * 1027P Departed: 4 hours and 45 minutes late.* SPOKANE 2 1245A 2 130A 521A 618A Departed: 4 hours and 48 minutes late.* SANDPOINT * * 2 235A * 315A Departed: 4 hours and 40 minutes late.* LIBBY * * 2 526A * 600A Departed: 4 hours and 34 minutes late.* WHITEFISH 2 726A 2 746A 1221P 1234P Departed: 4 hours and 48 minutes late.* WEST GLACIER * * 2 816A * 840A Departed: 4 hours and 24 minutes late. ESSEX * * 2 855A MT* EAST GLACIER PARK * * 2 954A * 308P Departed: 5 hours and 14 minutes late.* CUT BANK * * 2 1045A * 1108A Departed: 24 hours and 23 minutes late.* SHELBY 2 1138A 2 1143A 429P 434P Departed: 4 hours and 51 minutes late.* HAVRE 2 112P 2 132P 618P 635P Departed: 5 hours and 3 minutes late.* MALTA * * 2 252P * 805P Departed: 5 hours and 13 minutes late.* GLASGOW * * 2 347P * 912P Departed: 5 hours and 25 minutes late.* WOLF POINT * * 2 433P * 1014P Departed: 5 hours and 41 minutes late.* WILLISTON * * 2 709P * 143A Departed: 6 hours and 34 minutes late.* STANLEY * * 2 811P * 322A Departed: 7 hours and 11 minutes late.* MINOT 2 922P 2 942P 508A 532A Departed: 7 hours and 50 minutes late.* RUGBY * * 2 1038P * 620A Departed: 7 hours and 42 minutes late.* DEVILS LAKE * * 2 1132P * 826A Departed: 8 hours and 54 minutes late.* GRAND FORKS * * 3 1257A * 1012A Departed: 9 hours and 15 minutes late.* FARGO * * 3 213A * 1151A Departed: 9 hours and 38 minutes late.* DETROIT LAKES * * 3 310A * 1255P Departed: 9 hours and 45 minutes late. STAPLES * * 3 409A CT* ST. CLOUD 3 502A 3 514A 300P 305P Departed: 9 hours and 51 minutes late. ST. PAUL/MINNEAPOLIS 3 705A 3 750A CT RED WING * * 3 854A CT WINONA 3 1005A 3 1011A CT LA CROSSE * * 3 1047A CT TOMAH * * 3 1126A CT WISCONSIN DELLS * * 3 1208P CT PORTAGE * * 3 1227P CT COLUMBUS * * 3 1257P CT MILWAUKEE 3 207P 3 215P CT GLENVIEW * * 3 312P CT CHICAGO 3 355P * * CT
Hotels in Chicago are going to be a little bit busier tonight.


----------



## Fan_Trains

is it possible that Amtrak Rep. will be boarding the 9 hour late train 8 several hours out of Chicago, to help with passengers to rearrange their connections?


----------



## amamba

Fan_Trains said:


> is it possible that Amtrak Rep. will be boarding the 9 hour late train 8 several hours out of Chicago, to help with passengers to rearrange their connections?


Yes that is possible.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

jebr said:


> It seems like the crazy (over 3.5 hour) delays could be mitigated if they would just always turn in Spokane. Not ideal, but maybe Amtrak simply always turns in Spokane and bustitutes the rest of the way. (An extra set in Seattle/Portland would also work, if that's possible.)
> If Amtrak could turn the train so that it hits the construction on time, that would help a lot. This isn't all BNSF's fault.


Turning in Spokane would not solve the problem as the most delays are on eastbound train 8 between Williston and Minneapolis/St Paul. When I rode in late July we were on time all the way to Williston and lost 3+ hours overnight but luckily arrived in Chicago about 7:15pm with all connecting trains held.


----------



## jebr

Tennessee Traveler said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like the crazy (over 3.5 hour) delays could be mitigated if they would just always turn in Spokane. Not ideal, but maybe Amtrak simply always turns in Spokane and bustitutes the rest of the way. (An extra set in Seattle/Portland would also work, if that's possible.)
> 
> If Amtrak could turn the train so that it hits the construction on time, that would help a lot. This isn't all BNSF's fault.
> 
> 
> 
> Turning in Spokane would not solve the problem as the most delays are on eastbound train 8 between Williston and Minneapolis/St Paul. When I rode in late July we were on time all the way to Williston and lost 3+ hours overnight but luckily arrived in Chicago about 7:15pm with all connecting trains held.
Click to expand...

True. But it should stop the cascading delays where instead of 3-4 hours late the train is nine to ten hours late.


----------



## whitefish mike

Sadly, timing as to when the EBs arrive in the construction zones is likely problematic. If one looks at the BNSF maintenance scheduling you will see that the work is not just done during a normal work day, but rather at all times during a 24 hour period along the hi-line. It actually makes sense to do it this way, since if all of the work was concentrated in an 8 hour daytime period very few trains would get thru during that timeframe. The delays will be as they are until this year's efforts wind down in the first half of November. As stated before, things will improve, but the reality of the increased freight traffic is a year around deal and the current amount of padding in the EB schedules will likely not be sufficient to overcome the increase in this traffic, so delays will continue to be a part of this route....we just don't know the extent at this time.


----------



## RRUserious

I think the prediction of things improving is optimistic and iffy. They aren't doing the work for recreation. They want to increase traffic. On that line, I've heard optimism repeatedly. Meanwhile, the record gets worse. Realists should buy their ticket expecting the experience of the past or worse. There are always opportunities to bail if it gets intolerable. Till then, the time a trip takes falls in a range, it isn't just some constant.


----------



## Whitefishmike

RRUserious said:


> I think the prediction of things improving is optimistic and iffy. They aren't doing the work for recreation. They want to increase traffic. On that line, I've heard optimism repeatedly. Meanwhile, the record gets worse. Realists should buy their ticket expecting the experience of the past or worse. There are always opportunities to bail if it gets intolerable. Till then, the time a trip takes falls in a range, it isn't just some constant.


And One should be very cautious about making same day connections thru CHI unless it is on one of the late trains!! My advice, if you have the time-enjoy a night on the town in Chicago and leave refreshed and relaxed the next day. I know many folks cannot afford the extra time or the money it costs to stay in one of America's last great cities, but if you can it is worth it!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Whitefishmike said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the prediction of things improving is optimistic and iffy. They aren't doing the work for recreation. They want to increase traffic. On that line, I've heard optimism repeatedly. Meanwhile, the record gets worse. Realists should buy their ticket expecting the experience of the past or worse. There are always opportunities to bail if it gets intolerable. Till then, the time a trip takes falls in a range, it isn't just some constant.
> 
> 
> 
> And One should be very cautious about making same day connections thru CHI unless it is on one of the late trains!! My advice, if you have the time-enjoy a night on the town in Chicago and leave refreshed and relaxed the next day. I know many folks cannot afford the extra time or the money it costs to stay in one of America's last great cities, but if you can it is worth it!
Click to expand...

If you are short on Funds, the Hosteling International on Congress is 8 Blocks from Union Station (you can Walk, Ride the Bus or Hop a Cab )and you can stay for $38 a night in a Shared Room with Bath, Breakfast included! Great Place to Layover!

Cue Sinatra singing "..Chicago, my kind of Town, Chicago is.."


----------



## RRUserious

Great eating places in Chicago. You just have to have a Plan B.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Whitefishmike said:


> RRUserious said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the prediction of things improving is optimistic and iffy. They aren't doing the work for recreation. They want to increase traffic. On that line, I've heard optimism repeatedly. Meanwhile, the record gets worse. Realists should buy their ticket expecting the experience of the past or worse. There are always opportunities to bail if it gets intolerable. Till then, the time a trip takes falls in a range, it isn't just some constant.
> 
> 
> 
> And One should be very cautious about making same day connections thru CHI unless it is on one of the late trains!! My advice, if you have the time-enjoy a night on the town in Chicago and leave refreshed and relaxed the next day. I know many folks cannot afford the extra time or the money it costs to stay in one of America's last great cities, but if you can it is worth it!
Click to expand...

Yes, Chicago is a great place, and since Amtrak is so expensive anyways, especially the EB, you might as well enjoy it if you can. Passing through anyway. I would be quite bored after three straight days on the train and would rather prefer an overnight stay.


----------



## montana mike

I see #8 heading east in WA this AM is already almost 4 hours behind, having left SEA very late yesterday evening--anyone know why it left so late?


----------



## greatcats

I second staying at the Hostelling International, Chicago. Recently I stayed in one of the private rooms for something like $89 or $94. The rooms have a double bed, with a single bunk overhead, a desk with a comfortable chair, and closet space. Several of these rooms share a " living room " type area with shared baths. Not plush, but reasonably comfortable. Having the complimentary breakfast among young international travelers is a highlight.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

greatcats said:


> I second staying at the Hostelling International, Chicago. Recently I stayed in one of the private rooms for something like $89 or $94. The rooms have a double bed, with a single bunk overhead, a desk with a comfortable chair, and closet space. Several of these rooms share a " living room " type area with shared baths. Not plush, but reasonably comfortable. Having the complimentary breakfast among young international travelers is a highlight.


I must disgree. $89 is too much for that Hostel. Last time I stayed in Skokie for $75/night and it was quite good. Sure, I had to ride out of town, but who cares if you're a transport fan.


----------



## greatcats

OK, I see your point, but the location downtown is excellent. I like transport, too, but when I am staying in a city for the purpose of attending concerts and doing cultural activities, I prefer to be in a place where I can walk to the event, such as the Chicago Symphony.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

greatcats said:


> OK, I see your point, but the location downtown is excellent. I like transport, too, but when I am staying in a city for the purpose of attending concerts and doing cultural activities, I prefer to be in a place where I can walk to the event, such as the Chicago Symphony.


Ah, yes, I see your point. While I respect your opinion, I'm not very interested in concerts, so I don't really need to stay in the city. The difficult thing for me was that when I rode the Loop at night to see the lights, it took me forever to get back to my hotel in Skokie.


----------



## Ispolkom

So we're riding #8 tonight from Minot to St. Paul. I went down to the depot this afternoon to check our bags, and after the station master dealt with the couple in front of me (they had complex questions that involved the bucket pricing system, checked luggage and credit card acceptance policies, and they weren't even travelling tonight), I learned that not only is train at least 3 hours late, but that a 57 person bus group is boarding at Minot tonight. It's nice that it is a warm night tonight, as it doesn't look like there will be any room to sit inside the depot. I pity the station master if the bus group arrives for an on time departure.


----------



## montana mike

#8 is around 5 1/2 hours late, STILL in ND this AM--arrrgh. And this is the weekend too. It has "only" lost about 2 hours, so far, thru the maintenance zones. Looks like an arrival into CHI around or hopefully just before 9 PM tonight, assuming #8 makes up some time at MSP


----------



## TraneMan

Ispolkom said:


> So we're riding #8 tonight from Minot to St. Paul. I went down to the depot this afternoon to check our bags, and after the station master dealt with the couple in front of me (they had complex questions that involved the bucket pricing system, checked luggage and credit card acceptance policies, and they weren't even travelling tonight), I learned that not only is train at least 3 hours late, but that a 57 person bus group is boarding at Minot tonight. It's nice that it is a warm night tonight, as it doesn't look like there will be any room to sit inside the depot. I pity the station master if the bus group arrives for an on time departure.


Hope these 57 people are not going past CHI?


----------



## yarrow

8 heading to chi today seems to have dropped off the status map. julie still says a bit more than 4 hours late


----------



## aurbo

It seems todays (yesterday east of Minneapolis) 7 was hung up around Hillsboro, ND for little over an hour according to scanner reports, adding to the delay time it built up east. Looking at the forecast for a large amount of the hi-line, it will be well into the 90s through the week. Just to add heat slow orders to the mess that is already occurring. Yikes!

The 7 did catch a break last week. A northbound freight smacked into a mosquito spraying vehicle just south of the depot in Grand Forks about an hour after the EB westbound went through. Closed the line for several hours. http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/271255/


----------



## RRUserious

aurbo said:


> It seems todays (yesterday east of Minneapolis) 7 was hung up around Hillsboro, ND for little over an hour according to scanner reports, adding to the delay time it built up east. Looking at the forecast for a large amount of the hi-line, it will be well into the 90s through the week. Just to add heat slow orders to the mess that is already occurring. Yikes!
> The 7 did catch a break last week. A northbound freight smacked into a mosquito spraying vehicle just south of the depot in Grand Forks about an hour after the EB westbound went through. Closed the line for several hours. http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/271255/


Something for rail passengers to hope for!!


----------



## Ispolkom

Not sure how far the bus group was going, but they were continuing past St. Paul, my destination today.

This was not one of the better Empire Builder trips I've been on. We lost 45 minutes at Grand Forks, waiting on a westbound freight, then continued at slow speed because of signaling problems. This of course delayed #7, which was waiting for us at a siding. We arrived in St. Paul at 12:30 pm, 5-1/2 hours late.

The poor on-time performance wasn't as big an issue as was the air conditioning. It wasn't functioning well anywhere on the train, though I noticed that the 830 sleeper was cooler than the 831 sleeper, where we were. On the other hand, one of 830's unoccupied bedrooms had a cracked window, and that whole car (at least in the corridors) smelled of sewage. No nasty smells in our roomette, but the temperature was 85+, about ambient temperature today.

The worst air conditioning issues, though, were in the dining car, which was a CCC. As we arrived in St. Paul, I heard an announcement that lunch and dinner would be boxed sandwiches because the kitchen had temps past 120 degrees, and that coach passengers were welcome to move to the 808 coach, which apparently had working air conditioning.

Given the poor mechanical condition of the cars on this train, I'm wondering if Amtrak isn't straining to keep up service on the Hi Line with equipment that's overdue for servicing.

The crew really tried to provide good service despite the poor hand they were dealt by the air conditioning, dining car failure, and faulty toilet venting. I doubt that Amtrak made any converts among first-time travelers, though. Me, I'm happy to be home.


----------



## montana mike

Sounds like the Empire Builder trip from Hell--wow!!! A CCC for a dining car on the EB--interesting. And no AC as well. I can see a lot of unhappy campers tonight when the EB finally arrives in CHI-town. Looking like it will be at least 6 hours late getting into CHI.

Bummer.

PS--#7 in MT is now 5 hours behind as well. All in all an absolutely miserable week for the EB in both on-time performance and overall service. :-((


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

This is getting really bad! Now 7 (24) is over 5 hours late, and 8 (23) is 6 hours late! At least those poor passengers on the latter train are in Columbus and almost arrived in Chicago.

Amtrak is going to be losing lots of vouchers for this one, passengers that pay $500 per-person to ride the EB, lose out on the Diner, and get stuck in a train with no AC that has sealed windows!

Those Superliners don't even have rooftop hatches, I don't know how they're gonna ventilate now.


----------



## RRUserious

Ispolkom said:


> Not sure how far the bus group was going, but they were continuing past St. Paul, my destination today.
> This was not one of the better Empire Builder trips I've been on. We lost 45 minutes at Grand Forks, waiting on a westbound freight, then continued at slow speed because of signaling problems. This of course delayed #7, which was waiting for us at a siding. We arrived in St. Paul at 12:30 pm, 5-1/2 hours late.
> 
> The poor on-time performance wasn't as big an issue as was the air conditioning. It wasn't functioning well anywhere on the train, though I noticed that the 830 sleeper was cooler than the 831 sleeper, where we were. On the other hand, one of 830's unoccupied bedrooms had a cracked window, and that whole car (at least in the corridors) smelled of sewage. No nasty smells in our roomette, but the temperature was 85+, about ambient temperature today.
> 
> The worst air conditioning issues, though, were in the dining car, which was a CCC. As we arrived in St. Paul, I heard an announcement that lunch and dinner would be boxed sandwiches because the kitchen had temps past 120 degrees, and that coach passengers were welcome to move to the 808 coach, which apparently had working air conditioning.
> 
> Given the poor mechanical condition of the cars on this train, I'm wondering if Amtrak isn't straining to keep up service on the Hi Line with equipment that's overdue for servicing.
> 
> The crew really tried to provide good service despite the poor hand they were dealt by the air conditioning, dining car failure, and faulty toilet venting. I doubt that Amtrak made any converts among first-time travelers, though. Me, I'm happy to be home.


WTH? Carnival Cruise in charge of Empire Builder?


----------



## yarrow

sure sounds like a carnival cruise. the equipment problems can be laid at the feet of amtrak not bnsf (as can amtrak's silence about problems on the hi-line)


----------



## ScottRu

Gads. We're taking the EB from Chicago to Portland in November. Hope things have been cleared up by then.


----------



## amamba

I wonder if they did cobble together an extra consist and that is why the cars were in such bad shape for Ispolkom's trip. Does anyone know?


----------



## montana mike

I see #7 out of CHI this PM now has a service disruption in MKE?? Anyone know what happened?

:-(


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> I see #7 out of CHI this PM now has a service disruption in MKE?? Anyone know what happened?:-(


this is what i heard. doesn't make much sense so it's probably true. 7 is running on time and will proceed as far as havre where it will be annulled. there is an air conditioning problem with at least some of the coaches which will be worked on at havre. from that point, buses will take pax west or they may overnight in havre and take the next eb westbound. what the roasting passengers are to do between now and havre i have no info


----------



## NW cannonball

ScottRu said:


> Gads. We're taking the EB from Chicago to Portland in November. Hope things have been cleared up by then.


By November, at least the present heat wave in the Midwest should be over.

Reading Yarrow's post, it's hard to imagine trying to run the EB Milwaukee to Havre with even a few cars with non-working air conditioning this week. Much of that stretch has similar weather to what MSP has had the last couple days -- highs mid 90's lows at best near the dewpoint in mid-upper 70's at best, low 80's frequently. Heat index frequently in the low 100's. And that is outside the train. Inside there is more heat generated by all those human bodies, plus the electrical and mechanical systems. On India rail in the hot monsoon, at least the windows in the non-AC cars can be opened.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

7 (27) is fine now. It's in Tomah and still roughly on-time. No disruption.

The "bad boy" is 7 (23) which is 3:22 late. Again, this one was on-time up until FAR, when it went bad fast. No time has been made up, it's just gotten later and later. We'll see how it pans out this evening.


----------



## Linda T

I'm hoping the EB #8 will be doing better in three weeks when I'm on it. I don't mind the delays, as long as the connections remain guaranteed. SEA to CHI connecting to the #50 home.


----------



## JayPea

I will be on 27 in a week and a half, Spokane to Portland, the first leg of a four train, five day trip to Washington DC. I will connect with the CS in Portland, and I'm not too concerned with that connection since if it is too late into Spokane I will be bussed to Portland. Not ideal but I can think of worse places to be bustituted than through the Columbia Gorge at sunrise.


----------



## yarrow

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 7 (27) is fine now. It's in Tomah and still roughly on-time. No disruption.


i don't know. i was told it would operate only to havre and that air cond problems exist. we shall see


----------



## JayPea

yarrow said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7 (27) is fine now. It's in Tomah and still roughly on-time. No disruption.
> 
> 
> 
> i don't know. i was told it would operate only to havre and that air cond problems exist. we shall see
Click to expand...

I read about that on that "other forum". Apparently it is 7(26) with the air conditioning problems. And, for some odd, as yet unexplained reason, only those passengers bound for Glacier Park were bussed from Havre. Guess they figure those going past Glacier Park are going to be traveling at night and will be asleep???? Who knows????? Seems odd to me.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

JayPea said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7 (27) is fine now. It's in Tomah and still roughly on-time. No disruption.
> 
> 
> 
> i don't know. i was told it would operate only to havre and that air cond problems exist. we shall see
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I read about that on that "other forum". Apparently it is 7(26) with the air conditioning problems. And, for some odd, as yet unexplained reason, only those passengers bound for Glacier Park were bussed from Havre. Guess they figure those going past Glacier Park are going to be traveling at night and will be asleep???? Who knows????? Seems odd to me.
Click to expand...

Why didn't they fix the problems in Chicago after the 8 had come in with the rpoblems? They just sent it right back out with no maintainence? The yard shops in SEA aren't as good as CHI, so they should have done it already. Why is Amtrak acting like the bus companies?


----------



## montana mike

Strange--I see #7/27 disappears from the charts at GPK with another Service Disruption. This train has had mega troubles.

:-(


----------



## Steve4031

I'm wondering what happened too.


----------



## JayPea

I'm guessing that 7 is still running but 27 wasn't run this morning. According to the Amtrak website 7 has gotten as far as Leavenworth (albeit over 3 1/2 hours late) while there is no train status west of Spokane. So it looks like a bustitution was in order for Portland-bound folks.


----------



## UncleRobin

7 (28) left CHI 40 minutes late due to some locomotive issues. We got to Milwaukee an hour late and 8 pulled in just after we did.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Train 7 of 27 August experienced a Serivice Disruption, but is stilling running right now from Harve, departing only 1:53 late, but getting worse. This trains seems to be following a freight, it's just losing a bit more time at every next stop.


----------



## CHamilton

Via the Yahoo Empire Builder group, BNSF has filed the appropriate paperwork with the Army Corps of Engineers to double-track 12 miles of main line. This is not news, but it would suggest that the construction is proceeding as planned.

PUBLIC NOTICE NWO-2013-0948-BIS BNSF RR Ray to Tioga Double Track



> PROJECT PURPOSE. The applicants stated project purpose is “provided needed capacity to
> accommodate the growing demand for passenger train service, along with the shipment of
> freight and commodities, in the Glasgow subdivision.” The Corps determined that the overall
> project purpose is railway expansion.
> PROJECT LOCATION. The project is located [west of Minot along route 2]... in Williams County, North Dakota
> PROJECT DESCRIPTION. BNSF Railway’s proposed project would involve the construction of
> approximately 12 miles of new mainline track directly adjacent to an existing mainline track
> within existing BNSF right-of-way (ROW). Along with the construction of the new mainline, rail
> switching equipment would be constructed at both the east and west ends of the new track in
> order to facilitate switching operations.


----------



## CHamilton

Also via the Yahoo Empire Builder group.
Today at 04:13 PM



> This from the "All Aboard" list:
> A passenger aboard the Empire Builder, Train 7(26) reports no air
> conditioning all day in four of the train's coaches; the cars have been hot
> since St. Paul, where he boarded.
> 
> _Outside temperatures were around 90°F
> in North Dakota, dropping at night to the mid-70s.
> 
> A tour group to
> Glacier Park, which had been booked on the train, was handled instead on nice,
> cool, air conditioned buses. The regular passengers, however, have to ride in
> the heat.
> 
> Apparently the train's engines are generating HEP, but the
> coaches' air conditioning is broken._
> 
> This has been confirmed with another source. The train(s) continued
> to operate through to destination (hoping the problem could be fixed?).
> Trains 7 and 27 were showing as service interruptions because the space was
> blacked out (didn't want to sell tickets on a hot train). No buses were
> available at Havre, so some were given the option of staying overnight there (on
> Amtrak's dime) until the next day's train.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

What about air-con on the rest of train? Is it working in the Diner, Sightseer, and Sleepers?

#7 (27) has apprently passed the freight or whatever problem it was, because now it's making up time through western Montana. Those passenger will miss Glacier Park, but they'll get some nice scenery next morning in Washington.


----------



## montana mike

I see #8, which was supposed to depart from SEA at 4:40 PM today appears to be at least 4 hours late leaving SEA. Fixing the AC??


----------



## EB_OBS

montana mike said:


> I see #8, which was supposed to depart from SEA at 4:40 PM today appears to be at least 4 hours late leaving SEA. Fixing the AC??


Yep


----------



## EB_OBS

CHamilton said:


> Also via the Yahoo Empire Builder group.
> 
> Today at 04:13 PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This from the "All Aboard" list:A passenger aboard the Empire Builder, Train 7(26) reports no air
> 
> conditioning all day in four of the train's coaches; the cars have been hot
> 
> since St. Paul, where he boarded.
> 
> _Outside temperatures were around 90°F_
> 
> in North Dakota, dropping at night to the mid-70s.
> 
> A tour group to
> 
> Glacier Park, which had been booked on the train, was handled instead on nice,
> 
> cool, air conditioned buses. The regular passengers, however, have to ride in
> 
> the heat.
> 
> Apparently the train's engines are generating HEP, but the
> 
> coaches' air conditioning is broken.
> 
> This has been confirmed with another source. The train(s) continued
> 
> to operate through to destination (hoping the problem could be fixed?).
> 
> Trains 7 and 27 were showing as service interruptions because the space was
> 
> blacked out (didn't want to sell tickets on a hot train). No buses were
> 
> available at Havre, so some were given the option of staying overnight there (on
> 
> Amtrak's dime) until the next day's train.
Click to expand...

Actually, this isn't 100% accurate. There were up to 4 buses available at Havre and every passenger on the train was offered the opportunity to ride a bus if they wanted. Only three buses were needed though. One bus took the group of 40+ passengers directly to GPK. Another bus ran from Havre to WGL and WFH. There was also a bus sent from Havre to SPK. This bus arrived into SPK at 2:05am and passengers continuing on to SEA and PDX or other destinations were transfered to buses at SPK. At WFH two more buses were offered to passengers who wanted to.

Leaving SPK there were two on-time buses at 2:15AM and 2:45AM. Then there were six more buses available when the train arrived. Three buses were used to bus train #27 passengers to their final destinations and there were three buses for any #7 passengers onboard the train that wanted to take a bus. Conductors canvased the train but nobody wanted to get off and take a bus so all three of those buses were released.


----------



## montana mike

Just curious, is the AC fixed then on #8 chugging thru WA this AM (about 3 1/2 hours behind)? The other #8, still in ND, will likely arrive in MSP about 5 hours behind around noon. What a summer run this has been for the EB. Sorry to see this happen.

:-(


----------



## RRUserious

I sure hope on top of everything else they didn't have environment problems on the train. Nasty year to have something fail.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Status Maps shows that 7 (28) appears to have the same problems as the previous train of being stuck behind a freight. Delays have gotten worse and worse with no good sign of improvement.


----------



## Empire Builder tracker

Eastbound Empire Builder is 6 1/2 hours late leaving Devils Lake!

I feel that Amtrak should probably change the Empire Builder's schedule if this is the new normal.


----------



## montana mike

#8 in ND now just about 7 hours behind--ouch. And I see #7 in WA this AM is also 6 hours behind, with what appears to be another bustitution out of Spokane for the PDX folks. Which means a very late start for this PM's departure from SEA. The delays keep perpetuating the problems. What an absolutely brutal summer this has been.

:-(


----------



## Steve4031

Hopefully this mess clears up by October when I am schedule to ride 7 from Chicago to Seattle.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> What an absolutely brutal summer this has been.
> 
> :-(



same as last summer although last year things started to improve not long after labor day and this year we are aiming for improvement by halloween


----------



## CHamilton

Finally, a Service Alert on the Amtrak website.



> Empire Builder Trains 7/27 and 8/28: Temporary Service Delays
> Please be advised the Empire Builder has been experiencing delays of two hours or more while operating in North Dakota and Montana.
> 
> This is primarily due to temporary speed restrictions imposed by BNSF Railway Co. while it carries out track improvement work. We expect these issues to continue through the construction season this November.
> 
> Largely unaffected are Empire Builder trains westbound from Chicago to Fargo, ND, via St. Paul, and Empire Builder trains eastbound from Seattle and Portland to Shelby, MT, via Spokane.


----------



## fairviewroad

Unlike last summer's service alert, this one makes no mention of CHI connections. It appears that

Amtrak is still offering guaranteed connections to LD and Midwest corridor trains in Chicago.


----------



## JayPea

Too bad they couldn't have come up with the service alert a few months ago. Better late than never I guess.


----------



## montana mike

Today's #8-still in MN is now over 8 hours late! I don't see any connections being made for this train tonight. :-( And, BOTH #7 and #27 are chugging on their way to SEA and PDX-each running about 5 1/2 hours behind (apparently no bustitutions this time, which will mean that #8 and #28 will start their journeys behind the eight ball very late today as well).

Considering the average EB arrival times have been closer to 4 hours late this entire summer, not 2 hours, the service alert is somewhat inadequate, but at least they finally put something up for EB passengers.

I would bet my BNSF guy here in MT would beg to differ a bit on laying most of the blame on BNSF track construction. A myriad of items have come together to cause these delays with the tracks being just one (heat, Amtrak equipment issues,accidents for example). I reiterate, that BNSF told me that even when the construction is over for the season, the significant increase in overall traffic on this line will still cause delays of at least 1-2 hours (and that is after the Amtrak schedule padding is taken into account). There are just too many trains using this line right now. Hopefully after 2016, when all of the improvements are done, we will see things running more smoothly and closer to on time!


----------



## yarrow

the "service alert" seems totally clueless. 2 hour delays eastbound and no delay westbound according to the advisory! today 7/27 is more than 5 and a half hours late into sea/pdx and 8 is over 7 hours late to chi. whoever is in charge of finally issuing an advisory and to issue what they put out is an imbecile


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

A disaster for EB! 27 just arrived in Portland 6 hours late! 8 is still trying to get into CHI, 7:24 late! The next 7 in Montana is dealing with over 3 hours of delays already and it's getting worse and worse!


----------



## montana mike

What amazes me is that BNSF told Amtrak months ago (last Spring), that this would be happening ALL summer and Fall and yet here we are almost September and just now Amtrak announces there might be 2+ hour delays--when the entire summer has tracked at almost 4 hour average delays into CHI--just what BNSF estimated they would be. Oh, well. It is what it is........


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> What amazes me is that BNSF told Amtrak months ago (last Spring), that this would be happening ALL summer and Fall and yet here we are almost September and just now Amtrak announces there might be 2+ hour delays--when the entire summer has tracked at almost 4 hour average delays into CHI--just what BNSF estimated they would be. Oh, well. It is what it is........


Amtrak may have been fearful of losing passengers and/or PR problems. That's all I can think of. They could have even released a temporary schedule for the summer EB.


----------



## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> What amazes me is that BNSF told Amtrak months ago (last Spring), that this would be happening ALL summer and Fall and yet here we are almost September and just now Amtrak announces there might be 2+ hour delays--when the entire summer has tracked at almost 4 hour average delays into CHI--just what BNSF estimated they would be. Oh, well. It is what it is........
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak may have been fearful of losing passengers and/or PR problems. That's all I can think of. They could have even released a temporary schedule for the summer EB.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but I would think 4+ hour unannounced delays would be worse than owning up to them, even if they're not the fault of Amtrak.

I still think Amtrak just needs to turn the EB in Spokane. It would help keep the delays to just those in the construction area.


----------



## Eric S

yarrow said:


> the "service alert" seems totally clueless. 2 hour delays eastbound and no delay westbound according to the advisory! today 7/27 is more than 5 and a half hours late into sea/pdx and 8 is over 7 hours late to chi. whoever is in charge of finally issuing an advisory and to issue what they put out is an imbecile


The service alert does mention both eastbound and westbound delays. However it is really awkwardly worded.

Instead of just saying:

"Largely unaffected are Empire Builder trains westbound from Chicago to Fargo, ND, via St. Paul, and Empire Builder trains eastbound from Seattle and Portland to Shelby, MT, via Spokane."

There probably should have been something saying that westbound trains are suffering significant delays west of Fargo to Seattle/Portland and eastbound trains are suffering significant delays east of Shelby to Chicago.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> What amazes me is that BNSF told Amtrak months ago (last Spring), that this would be happening ALL summer and Fall and yet here we are almost September and just now Amtrak announces there might be 2+ hour delays--when the entire summer has tracked at almost 4 hour average delays into CHI--just what BNSF estimated they would be. Oh, well. It is what it is........
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak may have been fearful of losing passengers and/or PR problems. That's all I can think of. They could have even released a temporary schedule for the summer EB.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe, but I would think 4+ hour unannounced delays would be worse than owning up to them, even if they're not the fault of Amtrak.
> 
> I still think Amtrak just needs to turn the EB in Spokane. It would help keep the delays to just those in the construction area.
Click to expand...

Maybe SPK isn't a terrible idea, but it would probably mean even less loads. And no one outside the railfan community has really made a point about the massive delays, sure there's individual complaints, but no real combined publication against the delays.


----------



## gn2276

The problem turning the train in SPK is the Mechanical has to drive all the way to SPK to work the train and if there is any major parts wrong with the train they would not have the parts with them, that is why if there is alot wrong with the train they bring it all the way into Seattle.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

gn2276 said:


> The problem turning the train in SPK is the Mechanical has to drive all the way to SPK to work the train and if there is any major parts wrong with the train they would not have the parts with them, that is why if there is alot wrong with the train they bring it all the way into Seattle.


That sure is a problem because the mechanics have to rest after getting to SPK before they can get to work on the train and by the time they get back to SEA they can't work the Cascades in time.

Edit: or the CS, for that matter.


----------



## Empire Builder Tracker

Empire Builder 8 lost almost 3 hours between Devils Lake & Grand Forks.


----------



## montana mike

Another day of missed connections in CHI.

:-(


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Oh, well. It is what it is........


and it is administrative incompetence from smilin' joe on down


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Empire Builder Tracker said:


> Empire Builder 8 lost almost 3 hours between Devils Lake & Grand Forks.


They always lose a lot of time on that section/ The tracks there are in terrbile condtion and need repairs. BNSF should fix them for the sake of frieght trains up to Winnipeg.

Six hours late for the 8 into CHI today. The following trains are also extensively delayed:

7 (30)

8 (30)

5 (30)

3 (30)

Looks like problems across the board ofr Amtrak. The CZ ans SWC are also trying to deal with issues, plus a bunch of yellow in the upper-Northeast.


----------



## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> They could have even released a temporary schedule for the summer EB.


No they couldn't have. Amtrak can't just up and change the schedule on its own. Amtrak would have to renegotiate any schedule change with BNSF, CP, & METRA. And that is easier said than done. Furthermore, it's unlikely that all would even agree to a temporary change. If they managed to get any agreement, it would end up being permanent.


----------



## montana mike

I agree--that makes sense. I do know full well how difficult it would be to tinker with the scheduling. Nevertheless, it was frustrating, since Amtrak was informed by BNSF officials last Spring, as my BNSF contacts have stated, that these delays would be not just this summer, but continuing at various levels for at least the next several years due to the massive infrastructure improvement efforts by BNSF (they even nailed the estimated amount of delays almost exactly-a little bit scary really. I guess they know their business). The continuing increase in BNSF traffic on the Hi-Line also is a factor causing additional delays and do not generally reflect seasonal issues. Having experienced an entire summer of EBs regularly being 4-5 even 6 hours late, perhaps Amtrak management felt a schedule adjustment to reflect such large delays would be just too challenging to implement.

Maybe Amtrak figures they can deal with the 2 hour delays during the December thru April timeframes and just put out service advisories the rest of the year when active track efforts are underway? I travel the EB and other LD trains frequently and am now building in the likelihood of an overnight stay in CHI-town when my connection is less than 3 hours for any construction season trips. For the winter, except for the CL, I should be able to make my other LD connections almost all of the time.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Gee if Amtrak wants to add a train to a route, they have to study the impact, and pay for improvements to the host railroad, before rolling a wheel.

It seem the host railroad can run all the trains they want, before making any improvements to the line. Sure they own it, but in this case it is impacting Amtrak trains. One thinks the host should do a study, and make improvements before addition traffic is added. Just like they require Amtrak to do.

You can do a slot study once and then fill trains, before adding track. This way you know the point of crossing between fluid and parking lot.

Also slow orders after work is really out-dated. New machine that can leave the track speed at 90 mph right after the tamper / ballast crew go by. Ok it designed for track that maintain for 150 mph or greater, but why not.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Gee if Amtrak wants to add a train to a route, they have to study the impact, and pay for improvements to the host railroad, before rolling a wheel.
> It seem the host railroad can run all the trains they want, before making any improvements to the line. Sure they own it, but in this case it is impacting Amtrak trains. One thinks the host should do a study, and make improvements before addition traffic is added. Just like they require Amtrak to do.
> 
> You can do a slot study once and then fill trains, before adding track. This way you know the point of crossing between fluid and parking lot.
> 
> Also slow orders after work is really out-dated. New machine that can leave the track speed at 90 mph right after the tamper / ballast crew go by. Ok it designed for track that maintain for 150 mph or greater, but why not.


I'm sure they have done studies for the sake of profit. The maintainence and track work right now is going to directly improve the rail congestion on the Great Northern Line. 8 (31) is actually doing decently well, only 42 minutes late out of Glasgow-GGW. It will still lose time on the GFK-FAR over the night, but not too bad.


----------



## montana mike

#8 arrived in CHI 4 hours and 34 minutes late today, a little disappointing, since BNSF did cut back on some of their construction efforts this weekend. Looking at the past week, delays ranged from 3 to over 7 hours behind schedule into CHI. Hopefully #8 plugging away thru MT and ND tonight (now just under an hour behind) will lose less than 3 hours overnight, so perhaps we have a good shot at an Empire Builder being between 2 and 3 hours late tomorrow evening as it pulls into Chicago!!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

At least 7 (31) is making up time and could arrive into SEA less than 2 hours late. That is a pretty good improvement. The eastbound trains seem to be doing worse than westbound.


----------



## ERH

*I was scheduled Sea to Chi to Sea starting September 25th from Sea and September 30th from Chi. Cost about $1400 in a roomette but the chance to relax and enjoy was going to be worth it. After seeing the delays I cancelled the east bound (at a penalty. The cost to rebook to a day earlier was going to be several hundred dollars and an additional hotel night. Incidentally, because I paid partially in cash and partially by credit Card it takes six weeks to get a refund...absolutely incompetent BS) ) because it would very possibly not get me to Chicago in time for events i had to attend. At this point the stress of worrying about getting back home, I live a couple of hours from Seattle, in time for a reasonable night's sleep before an important early breakfast meeting the next day seems problematic.*

*Amtrak has screwed this all up so badly they are losing my support and certainly my future travel. A company simply cannot perform like the EB has so consistentlythis summer and act like the customer doesn't need to be considered. Regardless of the source of the problem some kind of adjustment or rescheduling has to be done. it feels like Amtrak is not even trying to communicate. In fact, if not for this forum it would be extremely dificult to anticipate that might be any problems at all if one depended on Amtrak.*

*Thanks for letting me vent. Customers should not have to tolerate what we do from Amtrak on the EB now.*


----------



## yarrow

ERH said:


> *I was scheduled Sea to Chi to Sea starting September 25th from Sea and September 30th from Chi. Cost about $1400 in a roomette but the chance to relax and enjoy was going to be worth it. After seeing the delays I cancelled the east bound (at a penalty. The cost to rebook to a day earlier was going to be several hundred dollars and an additional hotel night. Incidentally, because I paid partially in cash and partially by credit Card it takes six weeks to get a refund...absolutely incompetent BS) ) because it would very possibly not get me to Chicago in time for events i had to attend. At this point the stress of worrying about getting back home, I live a couple of hours from Seattle, in time for a reasonable night's sleep before an important early breakfast meeting the next day seems problematic.*
> *Amtrak has screwed this all up so badly they are losing my support and certainly my future travel. A company simply cannot perform like the EB has so consistentlythis summer and act like the customer doesn't need to be considered. Regardless of the source of the problem some kind of adjustment or rescheduling has to be done. it feels like Amtrak is not even trying to communicate. In fact, if not for this forum it would be extremely dificult to anticipate that might be any problems at all if one depended on Amtrak.*
> 
> *Thanks for letting me vent. Customers should not have to tolerate what we do from Amtrak on the EB now.*


you are correct, customers should not have to tolerate what amtrak is giving us on the eb either this summer or last. i have wondered what those non-railfans who just decided to drop the cash and take amtrak have been thinking. i can't see amtrak's long distance trains surviving much longer and, though i love the train, i am not sure how much of a loss it would be


----------



## gn2276

Most of the on-time performance on the EB route is not Amtraks fault as most of the delays have been due to BNSF track work upgrades that when done will make on-time performance better. Also this route is also subject to delays due to tempeture which when it is very hot out is done for the safty of the train.


----------



## FreeskierInVT

gn2276 said:


> Most of the on-time performance on the EB route is not Amtraks fault as most of the delays have been due to BNSF track work upgrades that when done will make on-time performance better. Also this route is also subject to delays due to tempeture which when it is very hot out is done for the safty of the train.


The average customer taking Amtrak for the first time surely wouldn't understand this, and would likely forget about ever taking a train again. Being on a train that's 7+ hours late would be tough for even me to swallow. even though I love taking the train.


----------



## montana mike

Sorry to say this, but even with a reduced construction schedule this weekend #8 is pulling into CHI about 3 hours late, so the primary cause for the delays, at least this weekend was not BNSF construction. And it wasn't the heat either--temps were delightful in the 60's and 70's thruout ND and MN. As I said before, aside the construction, the number of trains now on the hi-line are causing everything to slow down. I travel this route regularly and can attest to the increase in BNSF traffic, especially Intermodal and Energy related trains. Yes, in a couple of years when all of this is work is done BNSF believes traffic will move much better, but that doesn't help matters for current travelers on this route and there is no easy fix or answer. It's just going to be slow for some time to come.


----------



## Ispolkom

I think that you're right about the continuing delays. I'm still riding the train between St. Paul and Minot, because it's still better than driving, but I don't think that I'll plan any trips further west on the Empire Builder for a while.

Frankly, I can deal with the delays, since I travel in a sleeper and like being on a train. The air conditioning problems on our last trip, on the other hand, were much harder to bear.


----------



## RRUserious

Ispolkom said:


> I think that you're right about the continuing delays. I'm still riding the train between St. Paul and Minot, because it's still better than driving, but I don't think that I'll plan any trips further west on the Empire Builder for a while.
> Frankly, I can deal with the delays, since I travel in a sleeper and like being on a train. The air conditioning problems on our last trip, on the other hand, were much harder to bear.


Still better than Carnival Cruise.


----------



## Ispolkom

RRUserious said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that you're right about the continuing delays. I'm still riding the train between St. Paul and Minot, because it's still better than driving, but I don't think that I'll plan any trips further west on the Empire Builder for a while.
> Frankly, I can deal with the delays, since I travel in a sleeper and like being on a train. The air conditioning problems on our last trip, on the other hand, were much harder to bear.
> 
> 
> 
> Still better than Carnival Cruise.
Click to expand...

Given that a cruise ship is already my idea of hell, yes.


----------



## montana mike

#8 In MN lost 4 hours thru MT and ND last night--and that was with no heat and a much pared down construction effort.

:-(


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> #8 In MN lost 4 hours thru MT and ND last night--and that was with no heat and a much pared down construction effort.:-(


anyone know why? force of habit?


----------



## RRUserious

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> #8 In MN lost 4 hours thru MT and ND last night--and that was with no heat and a much pared down construction effort.:-(
> 
> 
> 
> anyone know why? force of habit?
Click to expand...

LOL. Of course. They don't want to slow down, but "it's tradition".


----------



## montana mike

I had just asked the BNSF folks locally--they said the slow orders are still in effect-even without construction, AND there was a fair amount of heavy freight traffic this weekend.


----------



## gn2276

TR 8(3) left Seattle pretty much on time today.


----------



## aurbo

_As I am writing this (4:47am Wednesday), #8/28 is sitting still in Grand Forks waiting for the on-time #7/27 to clear the FO switch south of the station. They will be waiting around an hour, and addition to the usual half hour or so delays due to slow speed between Grand Forks and Fargo, they will be losing significant time, unfortunately. _


----------



## montana mike

#8/28 now 4 hours and 35 minutes behind,

:-((


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> #8/28 now 4 hours and 35 minutes behind,:-((


you must be mistaken. the service advisory said 8/28 would be 2 hours late


----------



## montana mike

LOL--and I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale as well.

)


----------



## jis

8/28 finally arrived in CHI 7hrs and 20mins late.


----------



## CHamilton

yarrow said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> #8/28 now 4 hours and 35 minutes behind,:-((
> 
> 
> 
> you must be mistaken. the service advisory said 8/28 would be 2 hours late
Click to expand...

AU has better information than Amtrak has. They have ARROW, we have mike+yarrow


----------



## jebr

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="yarrow" data-cid="467151" data-time="1378302790"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="montana mike" data-cid="467139" data-time="1378298256"><p>#8/28 now 4 hours and 35 minutes behind,<br />

:-((</p></blockquote>

<br />

you must be mistaken. the service advisory said 8/28 would be 2 hours late</p></blockquote>

The alert says two hours or more.


----------



## Ryan

jebr said:


> The alert says two hours or more.


Don't go confusing the issue with facts.


----------



## yarrow

Ryan said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> The alert says two hours or more.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't go confusing the issue with facts.
Click to expand...

the facts are that since the service alert was issued 8/28 has averaged well over 4 hrs late into chi. which, to me, brings into question the value of the alert.


----------



## jebr

yarrow said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> The alert says two hours or more.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't go confusing the issue with facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> the facts are that since the service alert was issued 8/28 has averaged well over 4 hrs late into chi. which, to me, brings into question the value of the alert.
Click to expand...

If the alert said four hours or more, though, and people relied on that and decided to show up 4 hours late to the station and they missed their train, they'd be complaining to Amtrak as well.

Amtrak has to lowball the low number and then caveat it with "or more", because it'll likely be more but it doesn't want people to miss the train because it was less late than usual.

The fact is that Amtrak has stated that delays will be two hours *or more*. Averaging four hours is more than two hours.

Frankly, since they're not breaking connections, this is an adequate service alert as far as I'm concerned. It lets people know delays are inevitable and to expect them.


----------



## fairviewroad

Adequate, except issued about two months too late.


----------



## JayPea

fairviewroad said:


> Adequate, except issued about two months too late.



My thoughs exactly. If I were a newbie, and my train was several hours late, and then found out being that late was "normal" and Amtrak didn't have any advisory out to that effect, I'd be very upset. I wonder how many such newbies are now saying "Never again" with regards to Amtrak because of this??


----------



## fairviewroad

You're right, though the ironic thing is that newbies wouldn't know how long the train is "supposed" to take except for the

guidance of a printed timetable. I mean, the EB is scheduled to take 45 hours from Seattle to Chicago. But if you were

to tell the average rider that the journey will take 49 hours I don't think most people would blink, UNLESS they think it's

supposed to take 45 hours. It's the lateness that bothers folks, not the overall length of the journey.

(Obviously that calculation doesn't hold up for shorter segments)

But as has been discussed here, temporarily extending the scheduled length of the trip to "eliminate" delays has a whole

host of practical issues.


----------



## gn2276

Looks like another on-time departure for the eastbound EB out of Seattle.


----------



## aurbo

Does anybody in the Seattle area know if engine 156 left on the eastbound EB this evening (9-4)?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

aurbo said:


> Does anybody in the Seattle area know if engine 156 left on the eastbound EB this evening (9-4)?


No it didn't. Accroding to Status Maps, the train left with a regular Phase V Genesis. If the 156 was used, Status Maps would show a special ticker.

Edited to add: I'm glad Amtrak say two hours or more. The 7 (3) is only running 2:06 late right now, but it's getting gradually worse and worse. Must be stuck behind a freight again. It actually only lost 21 minutes on the terrible stretch FAR-GFK. Talk about train congestion!

Meanwhile, disaster seems to have struck the 6 (3) and 21 (3) instead of the EB.


----------



## JayPea

Swadian Hardcore said:


> aurbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody in the Seattle area know if engine 156 left on the eastbound EB this evening (9-4)?
> 
> 
> 
> No it didn't. Accroding to Status Maps, the train left with a regular Phase V Genesis. If the 156 was used, Status Maps would show a special ticker.
> 
> Edited to add: I'm glad Amtrak say two hours or more. The 7 (3) is only running 2:06 late right now, but it's getting gradually worse and worse. Must be stuck behind a freight again. It actually only lost 21 minutes on the terrible stretch FAR-GFK. Talk about train congestion!
> 
> Meanwhile, disaster seems to have struck the 6 (3) and 21 (3) instead of the EB.
Click to expand...


On the other hand, 2:06 out of Havre doesn't suggest complete disaster if your final destination is Seattle or Portland. The Amtrak Delays website for Havre only goes out five days, but here is the data: (note dates are the arrival days in each station)

Havre (8/31).... 1:52 late

Seattle (9/1)......38 minutes late

Portland (9/1) 2 hrs 2 minutes late

Havre(9/1)..........3 hrs 13 minutes late

Seattle(9/2).........1 hr 7 minutes late

Portland (9/2)......1 hr late

Havre(9/2)........2 hrs 19 minutes late

Seattle(9/3)........13 minutes EARLY

Portland(9/3)......20 minutes late

Havre (9/3).........2 hrs 14 minutes late

Seattle 9/4).........14 minutes EARLY

Portland (9/4).......40 minutes late

Havre (9/4).......2 hrs 6 minutes late

Seattle (9/5).........??

Portland (9/5)......??

There is a lot of padding in the schedule into Seattle in particular and into Portland as well. Most of the time a 2 hr late train into/out of Havre isn't a disaster in terms of missed connections.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Early? The 7 sure has been doing better than the 8! I'm too busy in the morning to check Status Maps.


----------



## StanJazz

Swadian Hardcore said:


> aurbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody in the Seattle area know if engine 156 left on the eastbound EB this evening (9-4)?
> 
> 
> 
> No it didn't. Accroding to Status Maps, the train left with a regular Phase V Genesis. If the 156 was used, Status Maps would show a special ticker.
> 
> Edited to add: I'm glad Amtrak say two hours or more. The 7 (3) is only running 2:06 late right now, but it's getting gradually worse and worse. Must be stuck behind a freight again. It actually only lost 21 minutes on the terrible stretch FAR-GFK. Talk about train congestion!
> 
> Meanwhile, disaster seems to have struck the 6 (3) and 21 (3) instead of the EB.
Click to expand...

Status Maps is not always accurate when it comes to the Heritage Units. It misses some of them. 8 (31) had a regular symbol on Status Maps not a special one. https://www.heritageunits.com/ showed 8 (31) as having P40 #822 but not in the leading position. On Monday I was on a Metra train stopped at the Western Ave station at 6:51 PM when a 3 hour late Empire Builder came by. The 2nd unit had Phase 3 paint. So it seems https://www.heritageunits.com/ was correct. https://www.heritageunits.com/ now says #822 is now on 5 (3). Status Maps show a standard symbol.

Stan


----------



## gn2276

The 156 is the lead unit on the EB out of Seattle tonight per the power lineup.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

OK, thanks. That classic Phase I is some good fun to counteract the bad dleays.


----------



## ScottRu

Am I correct in sensing that there is more trouble (i.e., long delays) on the Eastbound leg than the Westbound? [i'm going Westbound to Portland in Nov.]

And if this is correct... why? Thanks.


----------



## jebr

Yes, more trouble eastbound. Partially due to padding (more padding west of the construction than east) and partially due to built up delays (if a westbound train is late it may be delayed in leaving Seattle and already have trouble before hitting construction.)

FYI, so far a better than average day for the eastbound Builder. Under three hour delay, and it still has MSP to make up some time (it can make up an hour there on the best of days.)


----------



## montana mike

Yes, looks like we have a chance to break the string of 3+ hour arrival delays--Yea!!!!


----------



## JayPea

Is there reason to believe there are better things to come for #8???? I doubt it.


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Yes, looks like we have a chance to break the string of 3+ hour arrival delays--Yea!!!!


2hrs late out of mwk. if it doesn't get stuck behind metra out of glenview it could do it


----------



## zephyr17

It broke 2 hours...1 hour, 56 minutes late. In Empire Builder terms, it was early.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Something notable is that right now, both 8 (4) and 8 (5) are apparenlty running with Heritage units! Very rare for a route to have back-to-back Heritage units.

For once the EB is not longer the most delayed Amtrak train, the 6 (3) has taken it with over 9 hours of delays! ETA into CHI is Midnight for that one! Missed connections everywhere!


----------



## NW cannonball

Today #8 "only" 1,5 hours late at GFK -- !!


----------



## JayPea

I'm at the Spokane station now awaiting the arrival of #7 which should be here any time now, little over an hour late. My destination is Portland and current estimates have it all of one minute late into Portland.


----------



## JayPea

And right on cue #7 has arrived and passengers are straggling into the station as we speak, er, type.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

The EB Summer Blues seem to be approaching its end. Currently the only EB still "yellow" is 7 (6), 34 minutes late. It should make it into SEA/PDX right on time.


----------



## JayPea

And now all five EB's on the status map as of 8:22 PDT are in GREEN!  . When was the last time that happened?


----------



## montana mike

Just checked the status on all four EB's-Is everyone sitting down??? For the first time in many months--all four are showing green--either on time or within a few minutes of being one time!!!

It is a weekend, and that is helping, with less construction. Let's hope my BNSF contact's recent comment that they are wrapping up several (not all) of their MT/ND projects over the next couple weeks holds true and the EB gets back to something that at least resembles sanity!!!

Bravo, bravo....


----------



## jebr

montana mike said:


> Just checked the status on all four EB's-Is everyone sitting down??? For the first time in many months--all four are showing green--either on time or within a few minutes of being one time!!!It is a weekend, and that is helping, with less construction. Let's hope my BNSF contact's recent comment that they are wrapping up several (not all) of their MT/ND projects over the next couple weeks holds true and the EB gets back to something that at least resembles sanity!!!
> 
> Bravo, bravo....


We're all hoping with you!


----------



## Empire Builder tracker

Is the disaster almost over? 8 left St. Paul just a little over 30 minutes late! A huge improvement!


----------



## yarrow

Empire Builder tracker said:


> Is the disaster almost over? 8 left St. Paul just a little over 30 minutes late! A huge improvement!


i doubt the disaster is over. afaik, bnsf plans to work until november. i would guess we are in a nice little window with longer delays on the horizon but hopefully not as bad as it has been. at least until next summer


----------



## montana mike

Keep in mind--it was the weekend, and some of the track work is suspended during this time period, so that helps weekend EBs. Also, a few of the segments have been finished (at least that portion that was scheduled for this year) and they won't be restarting certain areas until April/May 2014. My BNSF guy did say things should get somewhat better as we head into the Fall, with the delays being more like 1-2 hours vs the 4-7 hours often experienced in the summer. He did caution though that NEXT summer looks like it will be very busy, both concerning track work (biggest effort in almost 50 years on the hi-line) and the increases in freight traffic will be clearly apparent. Let's just hope things are managed somewhat better next summer!


----------



## Slasharoo

Does the fact that the days are getting shorter have anything to do with it, or do they work through evening?


----------



## montana mike

According to BNSF their work schedules revolve closely around the train schedules and often that means they work 24/7. Not a traditional 9 AM to 5 PM workday for some of the track efforts. I have been on the EB this summer several times already and saw BNSF crews, with lights blaring away, working at all hours of the night. Clearly the daytime is the ideal time, but the number and timing of trains passing through a certain area often outweigh the convenience of working during those hours. Being on a track crew is dirty, dangerous and just downright hard work.

I think we are just seeing the modest winding down of planned efforts in certain areas, which is allowing the EBs to get thru with fewer delays--today's EB into CHi-town was a "mere" 45 minutes late--hurrah!!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Well, guess what? 7 (7) and 8 (7) are both dipping into the yellow again. Things might get worse come the work days.

Now major problems are besieging the 5, which has been late a lot lately, and the SWC and SL are not doing great either. At least the EB dosen't have the worst delays anymore, and that's an improvement.


----------



## montana mike

#8 in MN only lost 2 1/2 hours last night. In line with what was estimated. Hopefully we will be looking at 2+ hour delays now into CHI vs the much longer ones experienced earlier


----------



## JayPea

The major problems besieging 5 are mostly due to bad luck. Can't do much about mudslides and packs of dogs.


----------



## jis

Wait till you see strident complaints appear here about how Amtrak mismanagement has caused it not to have ordered completely dog proof rolling stock


----------



## JayPea

jis said:


> Wait till you see strident complaints appear here about how Amtrak mismanagement has caused it not to have ordered completely dog proof rolling stock


Wouldn't surprise me a bit.


----------



## Slasharoo

montana mike said:


> According to BNSF their work schedules revolve closely around the train schedules and often that means they work 24/7. Not a traditional 9 AM to 5 PM workday for some of the track efforts. I have been on the EB this summer several times already and saw BNSF crews, with lights blaring away, working at all hours of the night. Clearly the daytime is the ideal time, but the number and timing of trains passing through a certain area often outweigh the convenience of working during those hours. Being on a track crew is dirty, dangerous and just downright hard work. I think we are just seeing the modest winding down of planned efforts in certain areas, which is allowing the EBs to get thru with fewer delays--today's EB into CHi-town was a "mere" 45 minutes late--hurrah!!


Montana Mike, thanks. I will be traveling through there in a few weeks. It will be interesting to see lights blazing away, especially since I am going home and don't have to make a connection in Chicago. Maybe an early fall snow storm too...


----------



## montana mike

You may get lucky and catch them on their "break time" or a weekend and sail thru close to on time as one of the EB's did last weekend!!!!

Sometimes it is indeed fun though to see what they do with the tracks. I have witnessed up close and first hand how they raise the tracks, apply additional track bed, resurface the tracks, replace ties, align them and "re-set" the tracks. While it is done mostly by modern "hi-tech" equipment these days, there is still an element of danger and a great amount of physical effort involved--especially when they are working on the track bed and have to add literally tons of new stone to the bed.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Argh! 7 (8) is 1:43 late again! And 8 (8) is 1:21 late. Looks like that was just a weekend break, now the delays are hitting the EB again. But at least the 5 has even more delays, 1:53 now for the 5 (8).


----------



## montana mike

Yup, looking like the weekday construction schedule is back in full force. #8 in MN is over 3 hours behind this AM and surprisingly #8 in western MT is already just under 2 hours late-and they haven't even hit the construction zones yet. This one will likely be over 4 hours behind by the time it reaches CHI tomorrow night. C'est La Vie'


----------



## Slasharoo

I just started reading Empire Express: Building the First Transcontinental Railroad , so it will be interesting to watch "New" techniques as I am sure I will still be reading it in three week's time. (it's kind of a hefty book)


----------



## RRUserious

"Empire Express". Wow, that seems a misnomer these days.


----------



## montana mike

Empire Distress!


----------



## Slasharoo

montana mike said:


> Empire Distress!


Ha! Thanks for all the great info these past few months. When we determined our route was the Builder, I have been watching this thread with great interest. We are leaving on a Friday the first part of October, so the delays might be mitigated a bit, according to what you have been posting. I will try to post from the train if I get cell service in the delay zones.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ha! 8 (8) is now 3:23 late and it's almost arrived in CHI. 6 (8) will likely arrive at the same time, now that it's over 5 hours late. Currently both the EB and CZ are suffering massive delays. The 5 trains are also falling behind advertised.

Two heavily delayed trains arriving in CHI at the same time could heavily strain and disrupt connections.


----------



## JayPea

Yeah, it strained connections all right. I was on 6 and we've been here about half an hour. And 8 is just arriving. Just muddling through the mass confusion at Passenger Services as the Cardinal and CL were not held.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

The LSL must be packed tonight with all the emergency bookings. Some others probably had to stay overnight in CHI on Amtrak's dime. The Cardinal dosen't run daily, so passengers to CIN or CHW are screwed over for days.


----------



## jebr

JayPea said:


> Yeah, it strained connections all right. I was on 6 and we've been here about half an hour. And 8 is just arriving. Just muddling through the mass confusion at Passenger Services as the Cardinal and CL were not held.


Surprised they didn't hold it. Usually they do. Any reason why they wouldn't?


----------



## montana mike

Well, the EB was 4 hours and 15 minutes late to start. Likely also perhaps a light number of connecting passengers as well? That would have meant both the Cardinal and CL would have left CHI well over two hours behind schedule. The pattern of 2 hour (or perhaps less) delays over the weekend and 4+ hour delays during the week has held remarkably constant all summer long.


----------



## JayPea

I don't know why they didn't hold it either. I do know the shuttle bus that took us to our motel was full. Must have been 50-60 people on the bus. With a motel voucher and one for breakfast tomorrow morning, thatsa lotta dimes.  . And for Cardinal passengers, they were bussed to Indianapolis to catch it, CZ passengers from Galesburg and EB passengers from Chicago.


----------



## montana mike

Sounds like someone made the call to just put the pax up rather than hold these trains--agree that 50+ pax could have made a strong case to hold them.

Today's #8 in MN is now approaching 4 1/2 hours late--back to the weekday delay schedule--look for this train to arrive about as late as last night's train.

#7/27 in WA and OR not doing well either--looking like they will both be late into SEA and PDX as well, perhaps by as much as 2 hours, which in the past would have been unusual.


----------



## MrFSS

I had friends who were on 27 last Sunday into PDX and they said they arrived 37 min early. So, I guess it can be done.


----------



## CHamilton

All aboard for late-night wait: Amtrak trains rarely on time through Fargo



> FARGO - The train is late.
> 
> Again.
> 
> It’s 2:30 a.m. on a Friday, and the Amtrak train that hauls passengers east was supposed to be here 15 minutes ago.
> 
> Seventeen minutes, actually, if you’re a stickler for that sort of thing.
> 
> Fifteen people, spread among rows of plastic chairs inside Amtrak’s station in downtown Fargo, busy themselves with the kind of chatter that surfaces when strangers spend time together waiting. The heat and its impact on this year’s harvest. Daughters, sons and grandkids. Two men discuss Montana’s amateur boxing circuit from the ’60s and ’70s.
> 
> A whiteboard behind the counter cautions that the train heading west, through Minot and Williston to the Pacific Northwest, isn’t expected until 4 a.m. – 30 minutes behind schedule.
> 
> The train heading east is even worse. It won’t be in until 5 a.m.
> 
> Amtrak’s Empire Builder, which connects Chicago with Seattle and Portland, Ore., is scheduled to arrive daily in Fargo in the dead of the night. But its actual time of arrival more often creeps close to dawn.
> 
> Delays in Fargo, long and often, have made the station and others on the Empire Builder a particular concern for Amtrak, which has struggled for years with delay times on its 15 long-distance tracks.
> 
> The eastbound train has not been on time in more than four months and just three times so far this year, according to Amtrak records. It’s been six or more hours late twice as often as that in 2013.
> 
> Three times since 2008, it has arrived in Fargo a full day late. The average delay since 2008 is 114 minutes, according to an analysis of the company’s records.
> 
> Spokesman Marc Magliari said ongoing track maintenance that requires trains to travel slower has been a big factor, including a major, two-year project to protect the railroad from Devils Lake flooding. He hopes the route will be on-time more often when that work is complete, possibly by November....


----------



## aurbo

I was on the eastbound 8/28 Thursday night into Friday morning. I could not believe how many stretches between Grand Forks and Fargo where I heard "yellow flag 30" on the scanner, stretches where one or two years ago they were sailing at 60-65mph. It also appeared there were signaling troubles right off the bat Tuesday morning on the Devils Lake line just west of the Grand Forks depot, which plagued the westbound EB.


----------



## montana mike

MrFSS said:


> I had friends who were on 27 last Sunday into PDX and they said they arrived 37 min early. So, I guess it can be done.


Looks like it will be 2 hours late arriving today-bummer


----------



## montana mike

aurbo said:


> I was on the eastbound 8/28 Thursday night into Friday morning. I could not believe how many stretches between Grand Forks and Fargo where I heard "yellow flag 30" on the scanner, stretches where one or two years ago they were sailing at 60-65mph. It also appeared there were signaling troubles right off the bat Tuesday morning on the Devils Lake line just west of the Grand Forks depot, which plagued the westbound EB.


I know they need to do the work, but it is interesting how almost that entire segment is now subject to slow orders (and thus the 4+ hour delays into CHI). I have asked my BNSF contacts about this situation and they have all said while active track work is ongoing it is the railroad's policy to keep those speeds down to an absolute minimum-more so for the safety of the crews working on the tracks. The newly improved track beds and rails do indeed require a short and modest "break-in" period, but not at the very low speeds now mandated for crew safety. It is what it is. The November estimate by Amtrak's spokesperson for the reduction or completion in this year's track efforts appears to be accurate according to my MT BNSF folks. These projects are slated to end in the 2nd week of November and then resume about 5-6 months later next Spring!

Lastly, I was reminded that BNSF is spending more $$ on infrastructure improvements on the hi-line now and over the next three years than at any time in the past 5 decades!!!


----------



## montana mike

montana mike said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had friends who were on 27 last Sunday into PDX and they said they arrived 37 min early. So, I guess it can be done.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it will be 2 hours late arriving today-bummer
Click to expand...

#8 heading east in MN is now 5 hours late--looks like a very late arrival in CHI tonight--bummer.


----------



## JayPea

montana mike said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had friends who were on 27 last Sunday into PDX and they said they arrived 37 min early. So, I guess it can be done.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it will be 2 hours late arriving today-bummer
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> #8 heading east in MN is now 5 hours late--looks like a very late arrival in CHI tonight--bummer.
Click to expand...

I'm in the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago now and the reader boards indicate a 9pm arrival for thr EB. I hope those folks on it who miss their connections enjoy the free breakfast buffet at the Willowbrook Holiday Inn as much as I did!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Glad you made it Jeff! Hope the Cap doesnt Hold for the Late Western Trains!


----------



## JayPea

jimhudson said:


> Glad you made it Jeff! Hope the Cap doesnt Hold for the Late Western Trains!


You and me both, Jim! Of course yesterday I wanted them to hold the CL for both the CZ and the EB and they didn't. Since the EB is going to be even later than it was last night and since only the EB is affected I doubt they will. And I hope they don't since that would affect me.  Forget all those folks having to fight the madness at Passenger Services to make alternate plans; I don't want to be affected!!! It's all about meeeee, meeeee, meeeee!!!!

 :lol: J/K! J/K!


----------



## JayPea

Today's 8 left Seattle over 2 1/2 hours late.  The good folks who will detrain in Chicago and are connecting to other trains might as well be prepared to miss those trains now and make other arrangements.


----------



## gn2276

It was a late spot in the yard and engine trouble, had to change out the trailing unit. Got into Seattle around 1pm and also had trouble getting track time to go to the wey to turn the train.


----------



## montana mike

Good Grief, lots of challenges today in SEA. Given the very late start from SEA today I would estimate we have a very late arriving EB in CHI on 9/13. Sadly, today #8 arrived in CHI 5 hours and 48 minutes late--OUCH! We are rivaling the worst performance of the summer again.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I checked the stauts and 8 (11) left SEA not too long ago and indeed, it's already 2:40 late. It could make up some time in Washington, but then it'll lose more in Montana and even more in North Dakota. Delays added from GFK-FAR could screw this train over to a toal of 6 hours late!

The 7 (10) going through Glacier NP right now isn't doing too well either, 2:07 late, but it could make up a lot tonight with the extensive padding in Washington.

Despite all this, the worst timekeeping still goes to the 5, which is 3:09 late! Man, the CZ has ot been doing well at all!


----------



## The Empire Builder

Eastbound 8 is 4 hours 15 minutes late out of Williston :angry:


----------



## yarrow

The Empire Builder said:


> Eastbound 8 is 4 hours 15 minutes late out of Williston :angry:


actually it's westbound 7 that shows up as 4+ hours late out of wtn. could make up some time out of hav but a turning the train in spk is a possibility. oddly, 8 looks to be only an hour and a half late into chi today


----------



## montana mike

#8 today is making up for the grim performance yesterday. Yes, it's good to see a possible arrival time under 2 hours late into CHI-town during the week for sure.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Oh, it's still getting a lot worse! 7 (11) is now 5:20 late! Again, this train seems to be stuck behind a freight, so delays are piling up.


----------



## yarrow

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Oh, it's still getting a lot worse! 7 (11) is now 5:20 late! Again, this train seems to be stuck behind a freight, so delays are piling up.


yup, i predict a turn in spk tonight or, if not, a quite late 8/28 out of sea/pdx tomorrow


----------



## TraneMan

The Empire Builder said:


> Eastbound 8 is 4 hours 15 minutes late out of Williston :angry:


A friend's partner was on this train and from what he was told, a pick up hit the Empire Builder outside of Minot., no one died..


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

TraneMan said:


> The Empire Builder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eastbound 8 is 4 hours 15 minutes late out of Williston :angry:
> 
> 
> 
> A friend's partner was on this train and from what he was told, a pick up hit the Empire Builder outside of Minot., no one died..
Click to expand...

That's not good! Another accident! Can't be sure if this is accurate, lots of things get blurred when one tells another, then another, then another.


----------



## RRUserious

Do trains have to stick around a long time for the authorities to come and get evidence?


----------



## yarrow

RRUserious said:


> Do trains have to stick around a long time for the authorities to come and get evidence?


we have had two incidents in our travels. one in which someone on the tracks was killed. we were stopped for a couple hours for police investigation and to check the train after the emergency stop. once we hit some debris on the track which just held us up for maybe a half hour while the train was checked


----------



## yarrow

7 and 27 both left spk around 4 hours late so probably a late start for at least train 8 this afternoon


----------



## montana mike

Yup, looking like a very late departure from SEA today and even later arrival in CHI for today's #8 from SEA and PDX. Meanwhile #8 chugging along in MN is about 4 1/2 hours behind, so tha tone is on track to missed most connections in CHI tonight as well. Seems to be a pattern here, with several EBs leaving SEA and PDX so late each week that they result in very late arrivals in CHI, which in turn cause hundreds of people to miss connections, with only the weekends showing modest improvements when BNSF reduces some of its track work.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

8 (12) is going OK now, only 40 minutes late. I'm thinking this train'll lose up to 1 hour running the GFK-FAR, then make a bunch of it up as the train approaches CHI. So, I would extimete tomorrow's arrival at about 5:00 PM.


----------



## yarrow

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 8 (12) is going OK now, only 40 minutes late. I'm thinking this train'll lose up to 1 hour running the GFK-FAR, then make a bunch of it up as the train approaches CHI. So, I would extimete tomorrow's arrival at about 5:00 PM.


i think you are a little optimistic even given the weekend but i hope you are right. 8(13)hasn't left seattle yet so even going through north dakota on sunday may not save it


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

yarrow said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 8 (12) is going OK now, only 40 minutes late. I'm thinking this train'll lose up to 1 hour running the GFK-FAR, then make a bunch of it up as the train approaches CHI. So, I would estimate tomorrow's arrival at about 5:00 PM.
> 
> 
> 
> i think you are a little optimistic even given the weekend but i hope you are right. 8(13)hasn't left seattle yet so even going through north dakota on sunday may not save it
Click to expand...

Yeah, 8 (13) sure is screwed from the beginning. Departed SEA at 6:56 PM, and it will probably accumulate more delays throughout the trips. Things are getting blasted.

8 (12) suffered a setback between Wolf Point and Williston, but it's not in the red yet. The train will probably lose more until FAR, which could be reached at about 4:30 AM. Then, if padding works out and no further delays develop, the passengers could still make the CL connection at 6:10 PM.


----------



## montana mike

It does indeed look like #8(12) has a shot to arrive in CHI under 2 hours late--IF no unexpected delays crop up between MSP and CHI today. Thank goodness for the weekends to restore a little faith in the schedule. I get a chuckle that we are now considering 2 hour delays as "success". 

#8(13) is looking less well--could be another 4+ hour arrival delay in CHI tomorrow night, even with the weekend construction schedules, since it is almost 2 hours behind already due to the late start from SEA/PDX. I think Amtrak decided to send it all the way to SEA/PDX vs a turn in SPK because they knew #8 could hopefully not lose as much time over the weekend vs a weekday. We shall see....


----------



## montana mike

My bad--#8(12) is now over 3 hours late--rats!!!!


----------



## yarrow

Swadian Hardcore said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> the passengers could still make the CL connection at 6:10 PM.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

the cl leaves chi at 6:40 now so that helps a little


----------



## Linda T

Everyone talks about the CL leaving at 6:40, but the CDL leaves at 5:45. Is everyone just figuring the EB to the CDL is a lost cause? I'll be making that connection, God willing, on Tuesday the 24th from the #8. Keep your fingers crossed!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Linda T said:


> Everyone talks about the CL leaving at 6:40, but the CDL leaves at 5:45. Is everyone just figuring the EB to the CDL is a lost cause? I'll be making that connection, God willing, on Tuesday the 24th from the #8. Keep your fingers crossed!


:hi: Hopefully you'll be the exception to the Rule and #8 will Roll in Early or On-Time so you can make your Connection with the Card! (otherwise it's a Bus chase to catch the Card in Indiana, a switch to the Cap, LSL or even an Overnight in CHI on Amtraks Dime and a Re-scheduled on the next Days' Cap or LSL depending on the OTP of #8 ) Good Karma to you, keep us Posted!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Linda posted:

Everyone talks about the CL leaving at 6:40, but the CDL leaves at 5:45. Is everyone just figuring the EB to the CDL is a lost cause? I'll be making that connection, God willing, on Tuesday the 24th from the #8. Keep your fingers crossed!
The eastbound Cardinal #50 dosen't depart today from CHI, the next one departs tommowrow at 5:45 PM, not today, so it dosen't matter for this #8. I keep getting CDL confused with Commercial Driver's License so I always call it the Cardinal.

Edit: What happened to the quote?!


----------



## Linda T

jimhudson said:


> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone talks about the CL leaving at 6:40, but the CDL leaves at 5:45. Is everyone just figuring the EB to the CDL is a lost cause? I'll be making that connection, God willing, on Tuesday the 24th from the #8. Keep your fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> 
> :hi: Hopefully you'll be the exception to the Rule and #8 will Roll in Early or On-Time so you can make your Connection with the Card! (otherwise it's a Bus chase to catch the Card in Indiana, a switch to the Cap, LSL or even an Overnight in CHI on Amtraks Dime and a Re-scheduled on the next Days' Cap or LSL depending on the OTP of #8 ) Good Karma to you, keep us Posted!
Click to expand...

Yeah, hopefully they don't put me on the Cap or LSL, I'll be a couple hundred miles from home. My guess is either the bus chase or the hotel. I'm rooting for two nights and home on the Card, that would be the most ideal. I'll talk to them at CHI if I get the chance. I've been watching the 8 for the last 6 weeks and I will either make my connection, or I won't. It's that simple. :giggle:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Linda T said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone talks about the CL leaving at 6:40, but the CDL leaves at 5:45. Is everyone just figuring the EB to the CDL is a lost cause? I'll be making that connection, God willing, on Tuesday the 24th from the #8. Keep your fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> 
> :hi: Hopefully you'll be the exception to the Rule and #8 will Roll in Early or On-Time so you can make your Connection with the Card! (otherwise it's a Bus chase to catch the Card in Indiana, a switch to the Cap, LSL or even an Overnight in CHI on Amtraks Dime and a Re-scheduled on the next Days' Cap or LSL depending on the OTP of #8 ) Good Karma to you, keep us Posted!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, hopefully they don't put me on the Cap or LSL, I'll be a couple hundred miles from home. My guess is either the bus chase or the hotel. I'm rooting for two nights and home on the Card, that would be the most ideal. I'll talk to them at CHI if I get the chance. I've been watching the 8 for the last 6 weeks and I will either make my connection, or I won't. It's that simple. :giggle:
Click to expand...

Are you going to CIN? If you arrive hopelessly late to catch the Card, try asking for a voucher then hopping on Greyhound 4501 at 2:55 AM. It'll get you there in 6 hours.


----------



## CHamilton

28 (15) from PDX is being held for the late train 14(14) (which I am on). We are just pulling into Portland now, so I imagine 28 will leave about half an hour late.


----------



## Linda T

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone talks about the CL leaving at 6:40, but the CDL leaves at 5:45. Is everyone just figuring the EB to the CDL is a lost cause? I'll be making that connection, God willing, on Tuesday the 24th from the #8. Keep your fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> 
> :hi: Hopefully you'll be the exception to the Rule and #8 will Roll in Early or On-Time so you can make your Connection with the Card! (otherwise it's a Bus chase to catch the Card in Indiana, a switch to the Cap, LSL or even an Overnight in CHI on Amtraks Dime and a Re-scheduled on the next Days' Cap or LSL depending on the OTP of #8 ) Good Karma to you, keep us Posted!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, hopefully they don't put me on the Cap or LSL, I'll be a couple hundred miles from home. My guess is either the bus chase or the hotel. I'm rooting for two nights and home on the Card, that would be the most ideal. I'll talk to them at CHI if I get the chance. I've been watching the 8 for the last 6 weeks and I will either make my connection, or I won't. It's that simple. :giggle:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you going to CIN? If you arrive hopelessly late to catch the Card, try asking for a voucher then hopping on Greyhound 4501 at 2:55 AM. It'll get you there in 6 hours.
Click to expand...

Yes, thanks!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Linda T said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Linda T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone talks about the CL leaving at 6:40, but the CDL leaves at 5:45. Is everyone just figuring the EB to the CDL is a lost cause? I'll be making that connection, God willing, on Tuesday the 24th from the #8. Keep your fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> 
> :hi: Hopefully you'll be the exception to the Rule and #8 will Roll in Early or On-Time so you can make your Connection with the Card! (otherwise it's a Bus chase to catch the Card in Indiana, a switch to the Cap, LSL or even an Overnight in CHI on Amtraks Dime and a Re-scheduled on the next Days' Cap or LSL depending on the OTP of #8 ) Good Karma to you, keep us Posted!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, hopefully they don't put me on the Cap or LSL, I'll be a couple hundred miles from home. My guess is either the bus chase or the hotel. I'm rooting for two nights and home on the Card, that would be the most ideal. I'll talk to them at CHI if I get the chance. I've been watching the 8 for the last 6 weeks and I will either make my connection, or I won't. It's that simple. :giggle:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you going to CIN? If you arrive hopelessly late to catch the Card, try asking for a voucher then hopping on Greyhound 4501 at 2:55 AM. It'll get you there in 6 hours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, thanks!
Click to expand...

If you actually going to HUN, then you're totally out of luck. Greyhound only goes to Cincinnati, no further. If an Amtrak bustitute can't catch up to the Card, you'll have to ask Passengers Services to pay for multiple nights in a hotel until you can leave on the next Cardinal.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Meanwhile, the EB situation has again gotten better today. The 8 (15) left SEA spot on time and 8 (14) is also right on time entering North Dakota. 7 (15) hasn't run into the trouble spots yet.

The big problem is with 7 (14) which is again piling up delays while heading westbound. The train seems to be stuck behind a freight yet again. The delays just get worse and worse. Hope things imrpove when it gets to SEA/PUT tommorow morning.


----------



## montana mike

8(14) now almost 90 minutes late in ND-look for it to be about 2.5-3 hours late pulling into MSP tomorrow AM. (8/28) now anywhere from 30-60 minutes behind in WA.......

All of this is pretty much standard for the weekend. I would expect 8(14) to be between 2-3 hours late into CHI tomorrow night and 8(15) to be 3-4 hours behind, since they will catch the weekday track work schedule as they plow thru ND.

:-(


----------



## montana mike

Whooo!!! #8 arrived today in CHI "only" 96 minutes late--those weekend construction reductions really help!! Looks like everyone should have made their connections--mark this one down in the record books folks.........


----------



## AmtrakBlue

:wub:


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

7 (15) is getting better too! It's making up a lot of time coming out of the construction zones. It was 2:34 late in Malta, now it's only 1:34 from Whitefish. Might make it on-time into SEA/PUT because there's usually not too many delays in Washington.


----------



## montana mike

Agree, #7 has a good chance to be on time at both SEA and PDX today. #8 just outside of MSP lost about 3 hours last night in the usual spots-more in line with the weekday delays, but with a little luck might be able to pick up enough time to make it into CHI only 2 1/2 hours behind.

No new projects are scheduled to start on the Hi-Line this Fall. The EBs then have about a 6 month "quiet time" where the main issues will be the winter weather and increased energy freight traffic, which hopefully will cause mostly minor delays.......


----------



## yarrow

we will be on the eb tonight spk-chi connecting to the cl. is there a typical time the cl will be held for a late eb or does it vary depending on dispatching?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

8 (15) will get to CHI over 4 hours late. Pax will miss everything except the 48/448. The 50 and 30 both left already.


----------



## jebr

8(17) must be stuck outside of Glasgow. It's looking like it will be very late in arriving in...3 hrs. 50 min. estimated arrival time according to Amtrak, and adding 5 minutes to the estimated time about every 5 minutes.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> 8(17) must be stuck outside of Glasgow. It's looking like it will be very late in arriving in...3 hrs. 50 min. estimated arrival time according to Amtrak, and adding 5 minutes to the estimated time about every 5 minutes.


Might be an accident. The train could be delayed for 6 hours or more if it really collided with something. In the worst case scenario, the 8 (17) gets delayed 5-6 hours at GGW, loses 3 more hours throughout North Dakota, makes up 2 hours, and arrives into CHI about 7 hours late. Passengers would miss all the connections, even the LSL.


----------



## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 8(17) must be stuck outside of Glasgow. It's looking like it will be very late in arriving in...3 hrs. 50 min. estimated arrival time according to Amtrak, and adding 5 minutes to the estimated time about every 5 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> Might be an accident. The train could be delayed for 6 hours or more if it really collided with something. In the worst case scenario, the 8 (17) gets delayed 5-6 hours at GGW, loses 3 more hours throughout North Dakota, makes up 2 hours, and arrives into CHI about 7 hours late. Passengers would miss all the connections, even the LSL.
Click to expand...

Never fun. I have a short-haul ticket on there tomorrow (SCD to MSP,) so we'll see how late it is.


----------



## gn2276

Looks like maybe track work between Malta and Saco (20 miles east of Malta), the westbound train lost over an hour between these two towns.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 8(17) must be stuck outside of Glasgow. It's looking like it will be very late in arriving in...3 hrs. 50 min. estimated arrival time according to Amtrak, and adding 5 minutes to the estimated time about every 5 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> Might be an accident. The train could be delayed for 6 hours or more if it really collided with something. In the worst case scenario, the 8 (17) gets delayed 5-6 hours at GGW, loses 3 more hours throughout North Dakota, makes up 2 hours, and arrives into CHI about 7 hours late. Passengers would miss all the connections, even the LSL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never fun. I have a short-haul ticket on there tomorrow (SCD to MSP,) so we'll see how late it is.
Click to expand...

Oh, that would really stink for you if it was 8 hours late into SCD. Maybe taking the EB in September wasn't such a good idea. It would've been OK if you were riding LD, but for a short hop to be 8 hours late is just disastrous! Even 4 hours late is disastrous, and that's how late 8 (17) already is!


----------



## jebr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 8(17) must be stuck outside of Glasgow. It's looking like it will be very late in arriving in...3 hrs. 50 min. estimated arrival time according to Amtrak, and adding 5 minutes to the estimated time about every 5 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> Might be an accident. The train could be delayed for 6 hours or more if it really collided with something. In the worst case scenario, the 8 (17) gets delayed 5-6 hours at GGW, loses 3 more hours throughout North Dakota, makes up 2 hours, and arrives into CHI about 7 hours late. Passengers would miss all the connections, even the LSL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never fun. I have a short-haul ticket on there tomorrow (SCD to MSP,) so we'll see how late it is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, that would really stink for you if it was 8 hours late into SCD. Maybe taking the EB in September wasn't such a good idea. It would've been OK if you were riding LD, but for a short hop to be 8 hours late is just disastrous! Even 4 hours late is disastrous, and that's how late 8 (17) already is!
Click to expand...

To be fair, I kinda schedule it assuming it'll be a few hours late. Luckily, since I have to drive to SCD anyways, I can either drive to SCD and take the Link to the Northstar or just drive to Big Lake and take the Northstar all the way down.


----------



## montana mike

Now over 4 hours late. Looks to be a long day for the EB tomorrow.

:-(


----------



## mwmnp

Unfortunately, looking into the next month and beyond, the situation with the Empire Builder probably won't be improving much. Here's a peek at some of the significant construction projects BNSF has planned for October and the remainder of September along the EB's route through Montana.

Subdivision: GLASGOW
Job: SB04
Location: BAINVILLE'-'MACON
*Dates: 10/14/2013 - 10/29/2013*
Time: 4:30 - 10:30
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: SHLD BLST - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: GLASGOW
Job: SC30
Location: BAINVILLE'-'MACON
*Dates: 10/14/2013 - 10/29/2013*
Time: 4:30 - 10:30
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: SUPR SURF - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: HI LINE
Job: TP04
Location: KREMLIN'-'HINGHAMCENTER
*Dates: 10/1/2013 - 10/8/2013*
Time: 4:30 - 11:30
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: TIES - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: HI LINE
Job: UC01
Location: SUMMIT'-'JAVAEAST
*Dates: 10/14/2013 - 10/23/2013*
Time: 8:00 - 14:00
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: UNDERCUT - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: HI LINE
Job: UC04
Location: BURNHAM'-'PIEGAN
*Dates: 10/14/2013 - 11/5/2013*
Time: 4:30 - 10:30
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: UNDERCUT - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: KOOTENAI RIVER
Job: SB04
Location: WHITEFISH'-'ELMIRA
*Dates: 10/30/2013 - 11/15/2013*
Time: 8:00 - 14:00
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: SHLD BLST - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: KOOTENAI RIVER
Job: SC30
Location: WHITEFISH'-'ELMIRA
*Dates: 10/30/2013 - 11/15/2013*
Time: 8:00 - 14:00
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: SUPR SURF - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: KOOTENAI RIVER
Job: UC01
Location: STRYKER'-'FISHERRIVER
*Dates: 10/24/2013 - 11/21/2013*
Time: 8:00 - 14:00
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: UNDERCUT - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: MILK RIVER
Job: SB04
Location: NASHUA'-'HAVRE
*Dates: 9/13/2013 - 10/11/2013*
Time: 4:30 - 10:30
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: SHLD BLST - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: MILK RIVER
Job: SC30
Location: NASHUA'-'HAVRE
*Dates: 9/13/2013 - 10/11/2013*
Time: 4:30 - 10:30
Days: MON - FRI
Notes: SUPR SURF - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: MILK RIVER
Job: TP04
Location: BOWDOIN'-'HARLEM
*Dates: 9/16/2013 - 9/30/2013*
Time: 20:00 - 2:00
Days: SUN - THU
Notes: TIES - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: MILK RIVER
Job: TP06
Location: BOWDOIN'-'HARLEM
*Dates: 9/16/2013 - 9/30/2013*
Time: 20:00 - 2:00
Days: SUN - THU
Notes: TIES - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: MILK RIVER
Job: UC04
Location: SACO'-'MALTA
*Dates: 9/16/2013 - 10/13/2013*
Time: 20:00 - 2:00
Days: SUN - THU
Notes: UNDERCUT - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Subdivision: MILK RIVER
Job: UC07
Location: SACO'-'MALTA
*Dates: 9/16/2013 - 10/14/2013*
Time: 20:00 - 2:00
Days: SUN - THU
Notes: UNDERCUT - Priority traffic may see delays of up to 4hrs. All other intermodal and auto traffic may see delays up to 6hrs. Ag, Coal and Carload traffic may see up to 12hrs delay.

Most of the major construction east of Montana should be winding down during this time span, with one the biggest exceptions being a tie replacement project scheduled to begin next week on the Staples Subdivision from Wadena, MN to Minneapolis and continue until mid-to-late October. Work is set to begin each weekday morning at 8:30, so a late enough eastbound Empire Builder could just become even later through this stretch.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

What is a Shield Blast and what is a SUPR SURF?


----------



## mwmnp

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What is a Shield Blast and what is a SUPR SURF?


SHLD BLST = Shoulder Ballast

SUPR SURF = Super Surface

Both are related to cleaning and maintaining the ballast along the shoulder of the track. The first process, which involves cleaning the ballast with a specially-designed piece of equipment, leads to the second process, which involves the use of three machines - a tamper, track stabilizer, and ballast profiler - to check over and finish up the work of the first machine. Using the term "Super Surface" to refer to the group of machines that go to work following the ballast cleaner is unique to BNSF, I believe.

There is a lot more information about these machines at the website of one of the leading manufacturers. Look under "machines & systems."


----------



## jebr

I bailed. Took the Northstar instead, which is running pretty much on time...no North Dakota delays here!


----------



## montana mike

#8 now almost 7 hours behind!!! Arrgh. Looks like it very well could be 8 hours late into CHI--bummer.


----------



## RRUserious

The snooze at the hotel is great. But the checkout is early and then you wait,wait,wait for your connection to arrive on the next day.


----------



## montana mike

#8 in MN is now well over 7 hours behind-looks like a verrrry late arrival into CHI tonight-perhaps after 11 PM-bummer. I don't see any connections being made on this one. Meanwhile #7 in MT just dropped almost two hours, and it was doing fairly well until the delays in MT and eastern ND. The maintenance laid out above definitely continues to take its toll on the EBs......


----------



## montana mike

Looks like more than half of the delays this AM on this eastbound EB were due to freight traffic (oil, intermodal and grain)..... The delays today were absolutely terrible. #8, now finally in Wisconsin looks like a midnight arrival in CHI (almost 8 hours behind). #7 in MT lost 4 hours thru eastern MT today, will likely be very late into SEA and PDX (assuming they don't turn the trains, which I hope they don't for the sake of the SEA and PDX people), #8 now in MT lost 2 hours and is just heading into the ND delay areas--ouch!!!!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hey, my estimate was somewhat correct! I thought it was going to be about 8, and indeed it's 7 hours late, in fact, 7:49 is very close to 8 hours. Back in Montana, 7 (18) is over 4 hours late and 8(18) is 2 hours late. The EB is doing terribly again, while the CZ is recovering.

8 (19) departed SEA with a 1:24 delay and it'll probably get worse.

I feel for your situation, Jebr!


----------



## montana mike

Looks like it will be a late arrival for both 7 and 27 into SEA and PDX today--around 2-3 hours late, which means a later start for both this evening. 8 in ND is almost 6 hours behind now and looks like a very, very late arrival in CHI, probably 10-11 PM tonight. Bummer. Back to the mess like this summer.

My BNSF guy said increases in freight traffic and Mon-Fri track work, especially in MT are the causes and as we discussed yesterday, he said this may continue for several more weeks. He did re-iterate that he was confident once the Fall track work was done the EB should return to "only" 1-2 hour delays, which I guess would be a cause for celebration, given the miserable performance numbers over the past 6 months


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> #8 in MN is now well over 7 hours behind-looks like a verrrry late arrival into CHI tonight-perhaps after 11 PM-bummer. I don't see any connections being made on this one. Meanwhile #7 in MT just dropped almost two hours, and it was doing fairly well until the delays in MT and eastern ND. The maintenance laid out above definitely continues to take its toll on the EBs......


we were on that train. let me tell a little of our story. left spk with one cascades engine and one regular engine. on time into marias pass where we lost time as, apparently, we ran out of sand for the wet, slippery rails on the pass and barely made it over. they turned off power in the cars to give more to the slipping engines to get us over. i guess that put us out of our slot as we spent the rest of the day going 10 miles, taking the siding, waiting for 2 or 3 freights, going another 10 miles and repeating the operation. around 4 hours down out of wtn where we entered "the bermuda triangle" of bnsf track work in western north dakota. around 7 hours down when we woke up yesterday morning. got into chi just before midnight.

had called agr about our connections earlier in the day and they rebooked us for this evening on the cl in the last accomodation available. we were all bused to a hotel 40 minutes out of chi, slept well(getting to bed around 1:30 in the morning) and ready(more or less) for the rest of our adventure.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Looks like it will be a late arrival for both 7 and 27 into SEA and PDX today--around 2-3 hours late, which means a later start for both this evening. 8 in ND is almost 6 hours behind now and looks like a very, very late arrival in CHI, probably 10-11 PM tonight. Bummer. Back to the mess like this summer.
> 
> My BNSF guy said increases in freight traffic and Mon-Fri track work, especially in MT are the causes and as we discussed yesterday, he said this may continue for several more weeks. He did re-iterate that he was confident once the Fall track work was done the EB should return to "only" 1-2 hour delays, which I guess would be a cause for celebration, given the miserable performance numbers over the past 6 months


The 28 actually managed to depart on time from PUT. The 8 is still sitting in SEA. Awkward, eh?


----------



## montana mike

Yup--Looks like 28 will have to wait about an hour or so for 8 to arrive at SPK. Since it's the weekend hopefully this train can minimize the delays and not experience what the last two #8's have experienced for their arrival times in CHI.


----------



## tim49424

Just got a call from Amtrak....my trip on #8 will consist of a bus out of Tomah. Hopefully it will be to Milwaukee where I'll catch the Hiawatha south to Chicago so I can make my connection, the 6 PM Wolverine to Kalamazoo. 

This is nothing new to me.....the only different part of this trip is this will be my first trip on the Wolverine....I have taken the Pere Marquette over 20 times to Holland, however I was informed a month ago that #370 is now not a guaranteed connection from #8 and I had other options, the best being #354 The Wolverine.


----------



## jebr

tim54449 said:


> Just got a call from Amtrak....my trip on #8 will consist of a bus out of Tomah. Hopefully it will be to Milwaukee where I'll catch the Hiawatha south to Chicago so I can make my connection, the 6 PM Wolverine to Kalamazoo.
> 
> This is nothing new to me.....the only different part of this trip is this will be my first trip on the Wolverine....I have taken the Pere Marquette over 20 times to Holland, however I was informed a month ago that #370 is now not a guaranteed connection from #8 and I had other options, the best being #354 The Wolverine.


Just got a call from Amtrak myself as well! They told me that the train was delayed, though, and that's about it. So that wasn't really all that helpful...

No bustitution for me, though. Which is fine, because I'll be on the same train the whole way.


----------



## tim49424

I think bustitutions are only useful if you're trying to make a connection.


----------



## jebr

tim54449 said:


> I think bustitutions are only useful if you're trying to make a connection.


Well, they're useful for timekeeping as well, but I'm personally not too worried about that.


----------



## montana mike

On one hand Amtrak is trying to minimize the utter chaos in all of the missed connections (I did notice they held the LSL for 34 minutes to allow the LSL pax from the very late EB to catch the train Thursday night, all of the other connections were lost), on the other it would be nice if they recognized that during the week at least the norm on delays into CHI- and thus the calculation for connections is still around 4 hours (or more as we saw again this week). I guess their bustitutions are doing that.

Sort of takes the "fun" out of the trip when you have to hop on a bus doesn't it. Oh, well......


----------



## TraneMan

What happened yesterday after HAV? 7 was all the sudden 6 hours late.


----------



## Golden grrl

Okay, according to info earlier in the thread, the average delay to Chi on #8 has been around 4 hours on weekdays, pushing arrival to around 8 pm.

Does the dining car remain open after midday? Have sleeper passengers been served supper on those late-arrival evenings?


----------



## montana mike

On the times I have been on the EB when it was really late--eg 8+ hours, they did serve an abbreviated meal, but normally a 4 hour delay just means you get in at 8 PM and no diner service.


----------



## montana mike

Interesting, Amtrak still does not show a delayed departure from SEA today(normal departure time is 4:40 PM) even though #7 is still 6 hours late and hasn't even arrived yet in SEA. Perhaps they have another train set??? If not I don't see a departure from SEA until perhaps 8 PM or later tonight. Which would make the resulting #8/28 train a verrrrry late one by the time it arrives in CHI-town. I too wonder what happened to #7 around HAV, really took a hit for some reason......


----------



## Golden grrl

montana mike said:


> On the times I have been on the EB when it was really late--eg 8+ hours, they did serve an abbreviated meal, but normally a 4 hour delay just means you get in at 8 PM and no diner service.


Thanks for the info. Just in case, it sounds as if I need to pick up a packaged snack or two before I board. I can't imagine that finding a good supper - without reservations - at 8 pm in Chicago on a Friday night would be easy for a tourist.

Maybe I could pick up some chocolates after a tour of Theos chocolate factory in Seattle.....


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Ah, so much for the weekend break! 7 (21) is 2:45 late because it seems to be stuck behind a freight. At least 8 (21) is doing OK, only half an hour behind, could get worse though.

The 8 and 28 of today haven't departed yet. Getting off to a bad start for the week.


----------



## montana mike

Golden grrl said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the times I have been on the EB when it was really late--eg 8+ hours, they did serve an abbreviated meal, but normally a 4 hour delay just means you get in at 8 PM and no diner service.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. Just in case, it sounds as if I need to pick up a packaged snack or two before I board. I can't imagine that finding a good supper - without reservations - at 8 pm in Chicago on a Friday night would be easy for a tourist.
> 
> Maybe I could pick up some chocolates after a tour of Theos chocolate factory in Seattle.....
Click to expand...

The Chocolate sounds great! Actually, I have arrived late on weekend nights and usually have little problem finding a great place to eat. Yes, some of the "big time" restaurants might be booked, but many of the local eateries should be available. In the heart of the city there are surprisingly quite a few really great smaller places to eat.


----------



## montana mike

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Ah, so much for the weekend break! 7 (21) is 2:45 late because it seems to be stuck behind a freight. At least 8 (21) is doing OK, only half an hour behind, could get worse though.
> 
> The 8 and 28 of today haven't departed yet. Getting off to a bad start for the week.


I see 28 out of PDX left about 1 1/2 hours late and 8 from SEA is scheduled for an 8 PM departure (if they are lucky), which would get them started well over 3 hours behind.......


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so much for the weekend break! 7 (21) is 2:45 late because it seems to be stuck behind a freight. At least 8 (21) is doing OK, only half an hour behind, could get worse though.
> 
> The 8 and 28 of today haven't departed yet. Getting off to a bad start for the week.
> 
> 
> 
> I see 28 out of PDX left about 1 1/2 hours late and 8 from SEA is scheduled for an 8 PM departure (if they are lucky), which would get them started well over 3 hours behind.......
Click to expand...

Crap, 8 (22) still hasn't departed, and it's 8:30 PM right now. There has go to be extremly late arrivals into CHI on Wednesday. Adding to the problems, 8 (21) seem to be stuck behind a freight now, it's slowly piling up delays and now it's already an hour late. 7 (22) has also been piling up a load of delays already in Minnesota.

On the flip side, 7 (21) has been making up steady time and may arrive into SEA/PUT less than one hour late.


----------



## Eric S

Swadian Hardcore said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, so much for the weekend break! 7 (21) is 2:45 late because it seems to be stuck behind a freight. At least 8 (21) is doing OK, only half an hour behind, could get worse though.
> 
> The 8 and 28 of today haven't departed yet. Getting off to a bad start for the week.
> 
> 
> 
> I see 28 out of PDX left about 1 1/2 hours late and 8 from SEA is scheduled for an 8 PM departure (if they are lucky), which would get them started well over 3 hours behind.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Crap, 8 (22) still hasn't departed, and it's 8:30 PM right now. There has go to be extremly late arrivals into CHI on Wednesday. Adding to the problems, 8 (21) seem to be stuck behind a freight now, it's slowly piling up delays and now it's already an hour late. 7 (22) has also been piling up a load of delays already in Minnesota.
> 
> On the flip side, 7 (21) has been making up steady time and may arrive into SEA/PUT less than one hour late.
Click to expand...

PUT?


----------



## CHamilton

8(22) left SEA at 8:42pm, just over 4 hours late. I wonder if the passengers got dinner.


----------



## trainman74

Eric S said:


> PUT?


I assume that's supposed to be "Portland Union Terminal." Although it's not much of a terminal, given all those run-through tracks. Seems like more of a _station_ -- oh, wait, that's exactly what it says in giant letters on the clock tower.


----------



## Eric S

trainman74 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> PUT?
> 
> 
> 
> I assume that's supposed to be "Portland Union Terminal." Although it's not much of a terminal, given all those run-through tracks. Seems like more of a _station_ -- oh, wait, that's exactly what it says in giant letters on the clock tower.
Click to expand...

That's sort of what I figured he meant. But I thought that perhaps there was something else he was trying to refer to.

And thanks for the photo, I always liked how Portland (PDX, PUS, PUT) and Denver (DEN, DUS, DUT) have signage promoting train travel.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

I just like calling it PUT. I've always thought PDX was transplated from the airport code. PUT was orignally a ground transport code and has always been one, so I just use that instead.

It is actually an official code:

PUT PORTLAND, OR


----------



## Eric S

An official code for what? (For what mode of transport, or service provider, or transportation terminal?)


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Eric S said:


> An official code for what? (For what mode of transport, or service provider, or transportation terminal?)


Oh come on, you know what! :giggle: I _am_ Swadian after all. But I will not risk getting busted by an Admin again!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Anyways, no more PUT-debates, please! Let's look at some delays instead. 7 (22) is over three hours late, that's no good but it's through the worst section so hopefully things will get better. At least it's making up a few minutes at every station.

8 (22) is screwed over though, 3:42 late and it's just out of Williston! Then it's gonna lose more throughout North Dakota! Expect a 8:30 PM arrival tommorow in CHI. No good. Pax will miss everything except the LSL. Summer may be over, but the delays sure aren't!

Also, take a look at 1 (23), it's an hour early into SAS! Great performance for the Sun Belter. It might not run every day, it might not carry nearly as much pax as the EB, it might cover very little of its costs, but the SL sure is reliable! I remember back when _it_ was the one horrendously late every time and the EB was very punctual back then. Seeing the flip, happening everywhere.


----------



## jebr

Hopefully some of these EB trains won't get caught up in work in Minnesota that starts at 8:30. It seems that in order to avoid them the train can't be more than about two hours late hitting the Minnesota stretch, which rarely happens. (I'm sure some people on the train on Saturday would've liked that early of a train...it was running over four hours late and one of the passengers needed to be in Winona by noon!)


----------



## Steve4031

What's hAppening west of Spokane to cause 7 to lose time. This is happening today and 1 or 2 other days.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Steve4031 said:


> What's hAppening west of Spokane to cause 7 to lose time. This is happening today and 1 or 2 other days.


I can think of two reasons: either train congestion or slow turnaround at SEA/PUT after a late arrival from CHI.

8 (22) is in trouble. 5 hours late, it'll arrive in CHI at about 8:50 PM. For some reason it lost an extra hour CBS-MKE. The 30 and 50 both left already, more heavy loads on the LSL.


----------



## NW cannonball

Now, 7(24) lost 2 hours 50 minutes near SCD -- wonder what happened there?


----------



## aurbo

The lead engine conked out between MSP and SCD. They had to set out the bad engine and replace it with a BNSF engine.


----------



## Linda T

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's hAppening west of Spokane to cause 7 to lose time. This is happening today and 1 or 2 other days.
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of two reasons: either train congestion or slow turnaround at SEA/PUT after a late arrival from CHI.
> 
> 8 (22) is in trouble. 5 hours late, it'll arrive in CHI at about 8:50 PM. For some reason it lost an extra hour CBS-MKE. The 30 and 50 both left already, more heavy loads on the LSL.
Click to expand...

I take it the 8 (22), the 22 means it left SEA on Sunday? The #7 broke down and it took 5 hours to repair. It arrived late and of course needed prepped to become the 8. We were all given Subway lunch boxes, and then still got supper on the train. Three cheers for the crew keeping announcements going concerning delays. We went through most of the track work unaffected, but it was having lost our slot that made us lose 40+ minutes late due to having to wait a while for a freight.

The #50 was ontime from CHI to HUN (where I got off), so instead of busing us to IND, they had to bus us to CIN. Oh well... because I read AU I knew what was gonna happen even before my trip started.


----------



## Ryan

Linda T said:


> I take it the 8 (22), the 22 means it left SEA on Sunday?


Correct.


----------



## gn2276

Train 8 getting into Seattle today got in 39 mins early. Should be an on time departure out of Seattle today.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

gn2276 said:


> Train 8 getting into Seattle today got in 39 mins early. Should be an on time departure out of Seattle today.


You mean Train 7 right? Indeed, 8 (25) departed on time today. So is the 28. 7 (24) is nowhere near as lucky, it's 6:39 late and getting wrose at every stop! The train may still need to get through some construction before battling train congestion. Definately will be an afternoon arrival in SEA/PUT. Passengers may miss connections to the Coast Starlight.


----------



## JayPea

As late as 7 is, it's more likely it will be annulled in Spokane and passengers bused to points west.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

JayPea said:


> As late as 7 is, it's more likely it will be annulled in Spokane and passengers bused to points west.


We'll see what happens.


----------



## montana mike

Now that 7 is well over 7 hours behind in MT I would say the odds are high that it turns in SPK. #8 isn';t doing a lot better-4 hours behind in ND-with the worst delays ahead of it. This has not been a good september for timekeeping on the EBs


----------



## Fan_Trains

7(25) Had departed CHI on time, Arrived GLN, 4 min early, departed on time, Arrived MKE 6 min early, Departed on time, Arrived CBS 4 min early, Departed 1 min late, Arrived POG 2 min Late, Departed 4 min late, Arrived WDL 1 min Late, Departed2 min late, Arrived TOH 4 min Late, Departed 9 min late, Arrived LSE 1 min Late, Departed 4 min Late, Arrived WIN 20 min Late, Departed 19 min Late, Arrived RDW 17 min Late, Departed 19 min Late, Arrived MSP 11 min Early, and Departed 0n time.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Swadian Hardcore said:


> gn2276 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Train 8 getting into Seattle today got in 39 mins early. Should be an on time departure out of Seattle today.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Train 7 right? Indeed, 8 (25) departed on time today. So is the 28. 7 (24) is nowhere near as lucky, it's 6:39 late and getting wrose at every stop! The train may still need to get through some construction before battling train congestion. Definately will be an afternoon arrival in SEA/PUT. Passengers may miss connections to the Coast Starlight.
Click to expand...

This is an Amtrak forum, please use Amtrak station codes, not Greyhound's.And I wish you would change your signature because I think it is inappropriate for a train forum. I feel like you're trying to sell tickets for Greyhound.


----------



## jebr

AmtrakBlue said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gn2276 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Train 8 getting into Seattle today got in 39 mins early. Should be an on time departure out of Seattle today.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Train 7 right? Indeed, 8 (25) departed on time today. So is the 28. 7 (24) is nowhere near as lucky, it's 6:39 late and getting wrose at every stop! The train may still need to get through some construction before battling train congestion. Definately will be an afternoon arrival in SEA/PUT. Passengers may miss connections to the Coast Starlight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is an Amtrak forum, please use Amtrak station codes, not Greyhound's.And I wish you would change your signature because I think it is inappropriate for a train forum. I feel like you're trying to sell tickets for Greyhound.
Click to expand...

Most passengers wouldn't even know the station code. I never knew the station codes for where I was going on Greyhound...they do not use them on any public-facing media as far as I could tell. Even internal documentation (that I can find) usually uses the full town name whenever possible. (I've traveled Greyhound before, and until now I didn't know they had station codes!)
As for the signature, if it doesn't meet guidelines, I would report it to the admins. (I'm not reporting it because, in my personal opinion, it meets guidelines.)


----------



## jebr

It looks like 7(24) is no longer losing time, though a turn in Spokane seems very likely. 7(25) is only 51 minutes down in Devil's Lake, so that's promising, though 8(24) was just as far behind hitting the construction zone and is now 7 hr. and 29 min. behind Not looking good!


----------



## EB_OBS

Swadian Hardcore said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> As late as 7 is, it's more likely it will be annulled in Spokane and passengers bused to points west.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see what happens.
Click to expand...

No buses available. It's running thru.


----------



## amtrakmichigan

#7 pulled into Sandpoint, Id 8hr 40min late. Looks like it lost a locomotive somewhere along the way. Lead unit was a BNSF loco followed by a Amtrak P42


----------



## Bob Dylan

amtrakmichigan said:


> #7 pulled into Sandpoint, Id 8hr 40min late. Looks like it lost a locomotive somewhere along the way. Lead unit was a BNSF loco followed by a Amtrak P42


Railfans would say that you get to see Idaho and Eastern Washington in Daylight! ^_^ Poor Empire Builder, it's Inherited the Curse of the Old Sunset East: Terrible OTP!


----------



## yarrow

just got off 7(24)in spk and indeed it is going through to sea/pdx for very late departures of 8/28 today. briefly the saga of our lateness: problems with hep out of glenview and then mwk. lost about an hour. switched out our bad engine at msp for a bnsf which took a couple hours and made for a max speed of 70mph the rest of the way. slow orders in n. dakota, then a detector showed a hot bearing shortly before wtn which set us back only 30 min. freight congestion through e. montana and there you have our 8.5 hour delay into spk. it was great running in daylight along the kootenai river. all in all a fine trip with around 16 extra train hours and 2 extra dining car meals on the eb legs of our trip


----------



## Fan_Trains

7(26) got into RUG 1 hour 7 min late, left at 1 hour and 9 min late, got into MOT at 39 min late, left at 43 min late, got into STN at 1 hour and 49 min late, left at 1 hour and 52 min late, got into WTN at 1 hour and58 min late, and left at 2 hours late.


----------



## Steve4031

Wonder when 8 will leave Seattle? It's in service disruption now. And I will be departing Chicago in 3 weeks on 7. Should be interesting.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

8 (24) is screwed over now, 9:09 late and it's still in Columbus. 7 (25) lost about 90 minutes between Malta and Harve, so it's 5:14 late now. Looks like the summer delays will spill into October.

8 (26) and 28 (26) are still showing Service disruption, don't know what's going bad. Bad situation throughout the route.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gn2276 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Train 8 getting into Seattle today got in 39 mins early. Should be an on time departure out of Seattle today.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Train 7 right? Indeed, 8 (25) departed on time today. So is the 28. 7 (24) is nowhere near as lucky, it's 6:39 late and getting wrose at every stop! The train may still need to get through some construction before battling train congestion. Definately will be an afternoon arrival in SEA/PUT. Passengers may miss connections to the Coast Starlight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is an Amtrak forum, please use Amtrak station codes, not Greyhound's.And I wish you would change your signature because I think it is inappropriate for a train forum. I feel like you're trying to sell tickets for Greyhound.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most passengers wouldn't even know the station code. I never knew the station codes for where I was going on Greyhound...they do not use them on any public-facing media as far as I could tell. Even internal documentation (that I can find) usually uses the full town name whenever possible. (I've traveled Greyhound before, and until now I didn't know they had station codes!)
> As for the signature, if it doesn't meet guidelines, I would report it to the admins. (I'm not reporting it because, in my personal opinion, it meets guidelines.)
Click to expand...

It's just an operator tag and it's even smaller now that I editied it. I'm not telling you to buy Greyhound tickets or to ride Greyhound, it's just a tag on every bus that is mandatory to show that the unit is operated by Greyhound Lines. You can hide my signature if you don't want to see it.

PUT does stand for Portland Union Terminal, PDX stand for Portland International Airport, the "X" usually means International Airport. The train station is also Portland Union Terminal.

What would you say if Amtrak called CHI as "ORD" or NYP as "JFK"? There's people that call the former "CUS" for Chicago Union Station, but no one complains. This is the same matter.


----------



## Ispolkom

Swadian Hardcore said:


> PUT does stand for Portland Union Terminal, PDX stand for Portland International Airport, the "X" usually means International Airport. The train station is also Portland Union Terminal.
> 
> What would you say if Amtrak called CHI as "ORD" or NYP as "JFK"? There's people that call the former "CUS" for Chicago Union Station, but no one complains. This is the same matter.


Where is this Portland Union Terminal you write about? The depot in Portland, Oregon, is called "Union Station." It says so, right on the building, all lit up and stuff. It's hard to miss.


----------



## CHamilton

The place where Amtrak trains stop in Portland, Oregon, is simply called Union Station (not Portland Union Station). It's listed on the National Register of Historic Places that way. It was never called a "terminal," although it was originally built by the Northern Pacific Terminal Company between 1890 and 1896, and was owned by the Portland Terminal Railroad until 1987.

I've heard residents of Portland call their city "PDX," along with such prosaic appellations as "the Rose City," "City of Bridges," and "the 503 [for the area code]." Of course, AU can create whatever unofficial abbreviations we want, like SCA, which I understand is not used within Amtrak. But as for me, I'm terminally bored by arguments over nomenclature.


----------



## Fan_Trains

7(25) got into SBY 4 hours 32 min late, left SBY 4 hours 35 min late. got into CUT 4 hours 30 min late, left CUT at 4 hours 31 min late, and got into GPK 4 hours 22 min late left GPK 4 hours 25 min late. it seems there will not be much to be seen at night.


----------



## Ryan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> PUT does stand for Portland Union Terminal, PDX stand for Portland International Airport, the "X" usually means International Airport. The train station is also Portland Union Terminal.
> 
> What would you say if Amtrak called CHI as "ORD" or NYP as "JFK"? There's people that call the former "CUS" for Chicago Union Station, but no one complains. This is the same matter.


You mean like LAX? BWI? EWR? ATL? (I can go on if you like). Also the "X" = international airport bit is horse manure. 
CUS/WUS annoy me personally, but they are 1)the abbreviation for the stations full name and 2)commonly used by enough here that there's no point in tilting at windmills and trying to get people to change. PUT is neither of these 2 things.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

yarrow said:


> it was great running in daylight along the kootenai river. all in all a fine trip with around 16 extra train hours and 2 extra dining car meals on the eb legs of our trip


As I tell people on a late train: More value for your money!


----------



## jis

Swadian Hardcore said:


> PUT does stand for Portland Union Terminal, PDX stand for Portland International Airport, the "X" usually means International Airport. The train station is also Portland Union Terminal.
> 
> What would you say if Amtrak called CHI as "ORD" or NYP as "JFK"? There's people that call the former "CUS" for Chicago Union Station, but no one complains. This is the same matter.


PUT may stand for Portland Union Trerminal, but since there is nothing that exists with that name in Portland Oregon that has anything to do with trains, what is the point of belaboring the point? PUT has very little to do with the station called Union Station in Portland OR. It appears to be important to just one participant here, and so be it. But when the citizens of Portland themselves call their entire city PDX from time to time, I see absolutely nothing wrong with Amtrak using PDX as the official code for their station in said city. So calling Union Station in Portland as PUT is not at all the same matter as Chicago union Station being abbreviated as CUS.
Why would Amtrak call CHI as ORD? Is the station at a location formerly occupied by the Orchard Field? What is wrong with CHI? And Amtrak does call the appropriate station EWR in Newark. OTOH Penn Station in Newark in NWK, and no one even tries to call it NPS. Calling New York Penn Station JFK would simply be confusing. They could call it FDR too just for the heck of it.  JFK is an appropriate code for an airport that is indeed called JFK, not for every other terminal in New York. And this business about X suffix meaning international? Where did you get that from?

So all in all if someone tries to call Chicago Union Station ORD, or New York Penn Station JFK or Union Station in Portland PUT, I'd say the same thing to all..... "Get reconnected back to normal practice" 

BTW, what does this have to do with EB and its summer woes other than of course that one of its terminal points is the said Union Station in Portland?


----------



## Slasharoo

Personally, I find using station codes in correspondence insufferable. I can accept the major stations like Chicago, New York or Portland but Sturtevant??? Nope


----------



## Steve4031

Let's get back on topic. In riding 7 in 3 weeks and could care less about station codes. Just use the ones used by Amtrak. Or spell it out. Keep life simple.


----------



## amamba

Sounds like the EB is still suffering from its summertime woes.


----------



## amtrakmichigan

#8 just rolled into Sandpoint down 5:44 with one P42 and #502 Dash-8. At least the consist looked better then the Cascade engine that was being used a few times last week


----------



## Fan_Trains

7(25) just left SPK 3 hours 26 min late, and 27(27) just left SPK 3 hours 25 min late


----------



## EB_OBS

amtrakmichigan said:


> #8 just rolled into Sandpoint down 5:44 with one P42 and #502 Dash-8. At least the consist looked better then the Cascade engine that was being used a few times last week



Trail loco is actually #507. It's a P32. This loco is based out of LAX and usually runs on the Coast Starlight.


----------



## John

This may seem like a dumb question but does anyone know why 7(27) left CHI 6 minutes down? Only reason I ask is that a friend and I saw it around 2:21 when we we're walking back to CUS.


----------



## EB_OBS

John said:


> This may seem like a dumb question but does anyone know why 7(27) left CHI 6 minutes down? Only reason I ask is that a friend and I saw it around 2:21 when we we're walking back to CUS.


There are no comments in ARROW as to the reason for the late departure.


----------



## montana mike

WHoo, hooh!!! It looks like #8 has a shot at being less than an hour late into CHI today!!!! Yeah. A couple of the BNSF projects have wrapped up for the season (to be continued next April btw), so this appears to be having a positive impact on the EBs. Let's hope this trend continues.........


----------



## Steve4031

I'll be riding 7 in about 10 days. What improvements would I likely notice from all of this construction?

Thanks


----------



## montana mike

Much of the effort was to improve road beds and rails (resurfacing, replacement) in parts of eastern MT and a good part of far eastern ND. Another aspect of the work is to add additional, traffic control systems, sidings and spurs to handle the increase in freight traffic along the hi-line. My guess is the areas where the tracks were notorious for being rough, especially in eastern MT, MAY be a better ride now.


----------



## Steve4031

Should be fun checking it out. Most of day two will be spent checking out the fruits if these efforts. Thanks.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Cool, glad to see the EB doing better. Most of the trains are close to on-time, but 8 (30) just suffered a two-hour dip near Williston. Everything else is going fine.


----------



## montana mike

Yup, #8 now almost 4 hours behind. I have asked my BNSF folks about this, since this type of delay is exactly in line with what was experienced this summer. Bummer.


----------



## montana mike

Back to 4+ hour delays on the eastbound EBs today, with 2+ hour delays westbound. My BNSF contacts say construct continues and will do so thru much of the rest of October, especially during the Mon-Fri timeframes. He said expect 2-4 hour delays on this route during the weekdays as BNSF crews try to finish up their Fall work schedules.

More missed connections I am afraid. I wonder why things settled down for a couple days??? Perhaps BNSF took a break?


----------



## Slasharoo

We're about ten minutes from boarding the 28 at Portland. I'll let you know what I see.


----------



## montana mike

Thanks. Looks like things really got out of hand today. #8 in Wisconsin is now over 6 hours behind and #7 in MT is over 3 hours late--arrrrgh!


----------



## Slasharoo

4 October #28 is in Spokane on time. Amtrak says 8 is early. Big oil train heading west just passed us as we sit in town. This is our first trip on the EB--beautiful start out of Portland. Could have used another one or two hours of daylight, though. I'll have to try this one in June sometime.


----------



## Slasharoo

8/28 left Spokane on time, but we're following a few 100+ car freights, so I'm not overly optimistic that our performance will remain stellar when I wake up tomorrow.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Slasharoo said:


> 8/28 left Spokane on time, but we're following a few 100+ car freights, so I'm not overly optimistic that our performance will remain stellar when I wake up tomorrow.


:hi: Hope you're enjoying being on a LD Triain to Celebrate your Birthday! Even though the Builder is Running Late, As the Old Song "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" goes:: "..I don't care if I ever get back!"

Look forward to seeing you in Chicago @ the Gathering and yourcontinuing Updates from the Hi Line!


----------



## Slasharoo

Awoke in Whitefish twenty minutes early. This riding a train on my birthday thing is working out. Just starting to get light.


----------



## TraneMan

Slasharoo said:


> Awoke in Whitefish twenty minutes early. This riding a train on my birthday thing is working out. Just starting to get light.


Happy Birthday! I did a trip from RDW to CHI on my birthday last year!


----------



## Slasharoo

East Glacier on schedule. Knock wood. It's kind of pretty in the park. Heading towards the high plains, it looks like.


----------



## Slasharoo

Into Shelby early. Smokers are happy. I think from Montana Mike's posts, the delays may still be ahead of us. No matter, the high plains are as beautiful as the glacier peaks. An icecoldtrain car just parked next to us. It looks to be self contained refrigeration.


----------



## montana mike

Glad the trip has gone well so far. You should get somewhat of a break due to the slimmed down weekend work schedules. Yesterday's #8 into Chicago was a mess-6 hours and 15 minutes late-arrgh. Today's is "only" 3 1/2 hours late, so somewhat of an improvement. Eastbound EBs on the weekend have averaged arrival times only 2 hours behind, so let's hope the one you are on is at least this good for you--enjoy the ride!!!


----------



## Slasharoo

Thanks Montana mike. We were on time through Malta, but now sitting still east of Hinsdale. I have noticed equipment and supplies along the route for the last 60 miles or so, but no active work. Lots of rail sections stacked at Hinsdale.

Just told we're waiting on a freight. They have been waiting for us all day. I am not used to seeing that...this seems more normal.


----------



## Slasharoo

Just passed the 7 train, west of Glasgow. They are 3+ hours late. That last freight puts us into Glasgow about 15-20 minutes down. I think that's the first late stop for the trip. Our first trip through Montana and we are both impressed. Very nice all the way.


----------



## Slasharoo

In Glasgow, MT now. Lots of material and equipment staging. But all the workers appear to be at a street fair in town...Octoberfest???


----------



## Slasharoo

8 in Stanley, ND, 45 minutes down. Waited for three BNSF container freights outside of Wolf point. Lots of freight traffic. They're emptying out the breadbasket...over 500 hoppers of grain went west in four hours this afternoon.


----------



## jebr

Any idea why the #7 has been losing so much time lately so early in the run? The last couple nights it's been over an hour and a half late before getting off of CP tracks.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

jebr said:


> Any idea why the #7 has been losing so much time lately so early in the run? The last couple nights it's been over an hour and a half late before getting off of CP tracks.


I'm not sure exactly but it may have to do with Chicago train congtestion. There's huge amounts of freight trains out of the city and Amtrak also has to contend with Metra.

Another reason might be mechanical problems with the train, yet another reason I can think of is possible track defects that require repairs.

Again, not exacly sure, just throwing ideas out there.


----------



## EB_OBS

A couple delays, prior to and at MSP were due to locomotive issues.


----------



## Slasharoo

8 pulling in to St.Paul 30 minutes down...wait, what's that up ahead??? It's a BNSF freight car jumping the tracks right before the depot. Nice. Back to regular schedule for the builder. I also heard rumor that the transit of Wisconsin might be a little slow. If we get there, I'll let you know. More time on the train....nice.


----------



## montana mike

Good Grief! Well, I hope you do better than yesterday's EB into CHI-town--4 hours late!


----------



## Slasharoo

We seem to be moving just fine in Wisconsin. Sorry for the rumor mongoring. We are about two hours down at Tomah, WI. The slow down in St. Paul is what killed us. There was some Sunday work going on there at Division (?) Street, that may have taken some time also.


----------



## Golden grrl

montana mike said:


> Glad the trip has gone well so far. You should get somewhat of a break due to the slimmed down weekend work schedules. Yesterday's #8 into Chicago was a mess-6 hours and 15 minutes late-arrgh. Today's is "only" 3 1/2 hours late, so somewhat of an improvement. Eastbound EBs on the weekend have averaged arrival times only 2 hours behind, so let's hope the one you are on is at least this good for you--enjoy the ride!!!


I was on that late #8 [2].

Track work wasn't the problem.

It was mostly the slowdown caused by hauling 5 empty private cars on the back of our train from Seattle. Took longer to make the train at Spokane when we combined with 28 from Portland, then also caused a delay in MSP to remove those cars. Add to that the fact we had just the two engines. At Maria's Pass, we first slowed, then had to stop the train. The engineer shut off HEP to the cars, and used that added horsepower to - slowly- reach the crest. Then we stopped to turn HEP back on and were easily able to coast back down and on with the trip. But we were badly off schedule by then.

It was the delays from the extra cars that got us off-cycle with our train orders, but I don't remember any stops on sidings waiting for construction. Before we got to Red Wing, we had a long delay for a bridge to turn after a barge passed. I think the conductor had to check the rail connections before we started again, because that barge was a long way from us by the time we crossed the bridge.

We were so far behind at Portage - scheduled arrival of 12:27 - when we got there at 4:54, the conductor had to announce that we were awaiting new orders from CP. Eventually, the train moved at 6:03, but that was just to get out of the way. We finally got rolling again at 6:30 sharp and then had to stop for the 7(4) to pass us at 6:38. That northbound 7(4) also had some private cars - at least two - on its tail end, so I expect it had delays at MSP as well.

Ours was a crowded train and needed two boarding spots at many more stations than when I'd ridden this route previously. Revenue passengers filled 4 of the transdorm roomettes. In my car, the roomettes got recycled a lot, rarely empty for more than two stops. The dining car staff were excellent all along the trip, as was our SCA, but the crowding and the length of the trip took a toll. The "wine tasting" was abbreviated, apparently because of insufficient supply of wines and the length of meals, since the delays meant more passengers ate in the dining car. Menu items were limited by the final lunch. In fact, the dining room was long since out of food by the time we got to Portage and there was no dinner offered on Friday, even though the train arrived so late into CHI. At Portage or Columbus, the SCA in 830 found enough snack packs for about 2/3 of the sleeper passengers, don't know about the coach passengers, although there was some kind of announcement for them. The snack bar in the observation car had been doing a very brisk business for the entire trip. The lounge attendant found supplies somewhere and restocked it, but I'd bet he ran out again before our train got to Chicago.

After we left Columbus, the conductor made announcements about failed connections and what Amtrak customer service had told him they planned to do for the affected passengers. When I heard him talking to a neighboring roomette passenger, he was extremely professional in conversing with that hostile woman, leaving her much calmed. I was highly impressed by him and how well he dealt with a bad situation. I thought his patience and kindness went above and beyond the call of duty.

A number of sleeper passengers [me included] had tickets to CHI but got off early at Milwaukee.


----------



## montana mike

Wow. Thanks for the detailed assessment. Gee, one would think that Amtrak could have done a better job planning that trip. 5 Private cars and barely enough power to get over Marias Pass, plus running out of food sounds like someone did a poor job of provisioning. Having been on quite a few late LD trains, once you lose your "slot" things just seem to snowball.......


----------



## Nathanael

There's an odd trend which is showing up on this and a number of other routes: Amtrak is having trouble handling packed, sold-out trains. Most notably, the boarding procedures at various stations are not designed for busy, full trains -- platforms are too short, etc. This needs to be addressed.


----------



## Golden grrl

montana mike said:


> Wow. Thanks for the detailed assessment. Gee, one would think that Amtrak could have done a better job planning that trip. 5 Private cars and barely enough power to get over Marias Pass, plus running out of food sounds like someone did a poor job of provisioning. Having been on quite a few late LD trains, once you lose your "slot" things just seem to snowball.......


An announcement one of the conductors made about having just the two engines suggested that the problem was simply that another loco just wasn't available in Seattle. I hope Amtrak was paid sufficiently to haul those private cars for it to help pay current bills. We had seen the same cars on my CS [30] from CA to Seattle:

Mid-America Mohave MRLX 800651

Wisconsin Valley Lounge 800787

The Milwaukee River 800195

MIlwaukee Road Superdome 800862

Lamberts Point 800702

Overheard an employee on board one of these otherwise empty cars that there had been a Levi Strauss private conference that used these cars in California.

Re: provisioning. This is only gossip I overheard, but it seemed that Amtrak is REALLY REALLY trying to be conservative with ANY outgo of money or supplies right now and for the past month or so.


----------



## yarrow

Golden grrl said:


> Re: provisioning. This is only gossip I overheard, but it seemed that Amtrak is REALLY REALLY trying to be conservative with ANY outgo of money or supplies right now and for the past month or so.


that may be so. we were on the eb rt spk-chi a couple weeks ago. 8 hours late into chi and sleeper pax got a nearly full "extra" dinner. coach pax got the dinty moore. also, the lounge car broke out the emergency snack packs. in the past, on 8 hour+ late trains i have seen them stop and stock up on subway sandwiches for coach folks. on our return we were about 8 hours late into spk. we got an "extra" breakfast but those in coach got nothing. not even snack packs afaik. i wondered about it and maybe you have the answer


----------



## Golden grrl

yarrow said:


> Golden grrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Re: provisioning. This is only gossip I overheard, but it seemed that Amtrak is REALLY REALLY trying to be conservative with ANY outgo of money or supplies right now and for the past month or so.
> 
> 
> 
> that may be so. we were on the eb rt spk-chi a couple weeks ago. 8 hours late into chi and sleeper pax got a nearly full "extra" dinner. coach pax got the dinty moore. also, the lounge car broke out the emergency snack packs. in the past, on 8 hour+ late trains i have seen them stop and stock up on subway sandwiches for coach folks. on our return we were about 8 hours late into spk. we got an "extra" breakfast but those in coach got nothing. not even snack packs afaik. i wondered about it and maybe you have the answer
Click to expand...

There were two other curious details.

Newspapers - On EB, none at all our first morning, then on second morning there were only enough for one sleeper car - none for mine nor for the transdorm revenue customers.

Convenience bags [shampoo, lotion, etc] were not placed in each room/roomette, but rather in a basket where the coffee and other drinks were available. All had disappeared by the first evening. Anyone who hadn't known to look for this little amenity and the later riders all missed it. That was on the EB. On the CS 14(30), there were no convenience bags at all. I didn't need the bag, so didn't think to ask about it on either train.


----------



## Ispolkom

Golden grrl said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for the detailed assessment. Gee, one would think that Amtrak could have done a better job planning that trip. 5 Private cars and barely enough power to get over Marias Pass, plus running out of food sounds like someone did a poor job of provisioning. Having been on quite a few late LD trains, once you lose your "slot" things just seem to snowball.......
> 
> 
> 
> An announcement one of the conductors made about having just the two engines suggested that the problem was simply that another loco just wasn't available in Seattle. I hope Amtrak was paid sufficiently to haul those private cars for it to help pay current bills. We had seen the same cars on my CS [30] from CA to Seattle:
> 
> Mid-America Mohave MRLX 800651
> 
> Wisconsin Valley Lounge 800787
> 
> The Milwaukee River 800195
> 
> MIlwaukee Road Superdome 800862
> 
> Lamberts Point 800702
> 
> Overheard an employee on board one of these otherwise empty cars that there had been a Levi Strauss private conference that used these cars in California.
> 
> Re: provisioning. This is only gossip I overheard, but it seemed that Amtrak is REALLY REALLY trying to be conservative with ANY outgo of money or supplies right now and for the past month or so.
Click to expand...

Both the private cars on the end of #28(2) that was so late and #7(4) were Friends of the 261 cars, that had been rented for Levi's Station to Station tour. Way too hipster for my tastes, but talking to the crew, apparently it was a fun time for them. After the end of the tour, the Friends had to deadhead the cars home, so they split them between two routes and sold tickets.

I couldn't afford to ride all the way from California, but I did manage to fly down in the morning on Southwest, spend a few hours looking at mosaics on downtown buildings, and then ride back in the _Cedar Rapids _and the _Wisconsin Valley. _The latter is a former Le Pub car (and apparently a hospital car before that).

I'm not sure how many passengers were in the private cars on *Golden grrrl*'s train, but there were a dozen on our trip, including four rail enthusiasts from England who flew over to San Francisco to ride the private cars to St. Paul, are returning to Great Britain tonight and then flying back to Minneapolis next weekend for the 261 steam excursion.

The British group with all their flying made my flying down to Chicago to ride the _Cedar Rapids _back to St. Paul seem positively sensible.

We were about two hours late into St. Paul. We lost half an hour over a problem with one of the _Cedar Rapids_' brake shoes, but the real culprit was an interlocking by the Pig's Eye yard just outside St. Paul. Something screwed up the signalling, so repairs had to be made before the interlocking would allow the dispatcher to switch us on to the proper track. It was maddening to be stopped within sight of downtown St. Paul, and not be able to do anything. Well, as it turned out, there was something I could do. I went back to the _Wisconsin Valley_ for another Sierra Nevada.

I like how you board a private car. No standing in line, no kindergarten walk, no show of identity or tickets. On Friday I waited in the Great Hall until 1:45 p.m., then walked to the north side of the station. While Amtrak personnel carefully checked coach passengers' tickets, I announced to a conductor, "I'm riding in the private cars," and walked by. The conductor seemed remarkably uninterested in me, and just reminded me that the private cars were on the end of the train.


----------



## yarrow

Ispolkom said:


> Golden grrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for the detailed assessment. Gee, one would think that Amtrak could have done a better job planning that trip. 5 Private cars and barely enough power to get over Marias Pass, plus running out of food sounds like someone did a poor job of provisioning. Having been on quite a few late LD trains, once you lose your "slot" things just seem to snowball.......
> 
> 
> 
> An announcement one of the conductors made about having just the two engines suggested that the problem was simply that another loco just wasn't available in Seattle. I hope Amtrak was paid sufficiently to haul those private cars for it to help pay current bills. We had seen the same cars on my CS [30] from CA to Seattle:
> 
> Mid-America Mohave MRLX 800651
> 
> Wisconsin Valley Lounge 800787
> 
> The Milwaukee River 800195
> 
> MIlwaukee Road Superdome 800862
> 
> Lamberts Point 800702
> 
> Overheard an employee on board one of these otherwise empty cars that there had been a Levi Strauss private conference that used these cars in California.
> 
> Re: provisioning. This is only gossip I overheard, but it seemed that Amtrak is REALLY REALLY trying to be conservative with ANY outgo of money or supplies right now and for the past month or so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Both the private cars on the end of #28(2) that was so late and #7(4) were Friends of the 261 cars, that had been rented for Levi's Station to Station tour. Way too hipster for my tastes, but talking to the crew, apparently it was a fun time for them. After the end of the tour, the Friends had to deadhead the cars home, so they split them between two routes and sold tickets.
> 
> I couldn't afford to ride all the way from California, but I did manage to fly down in the morning on Southwest, spend a few hours looking at mosaics on downtown buildings, and then ride back in the _Cedar Rapids _and the _Wisconsin Valley. _The latter is a former Le Pub car (and apparently a hospital car before that).
> 
> I'm not sure how many passengers were in the private cars on *Golden grrrl*'s train, but there were a dozen on our trip, including four rail enthusiasts from England who flew over to San Francisco to ride the private cars to St. Paul, are returning to Great Britain tonight and then flying back to Minneapolis next weekend for the 261 steam excursion.
> 
> The British group with all their flying made my flying down to Chicago to ride the _Cedar Rapids _back to St. Paul seem positively sensible.
> 
> We were about two hours late into St. Paul. We lost half an hour over a problem with one of the _Cedar Rapids_' brake shoes, but the real culprit was an interlocking by the Pig's Eye yard just outside St. Paul. Something screwed up the signalling, so repairs had to be made before the interlocking would allow the dispatcher to switch us on to the proper track. It was maddening to be stopped within sight of downtown St. Paul, and not be able to do anything. Well, as it turned out, there was something I could do. I went back to the _Wisconsin Valley_ for another Sierra Nevada.
> 
> I like how you board a private car. No standing in line, no kindergarten walk, no show of identity or tickets. On Friday I waited in the Great Hall until 1:45 p.m., then walked to the north side of the station. While Amtrak personnel carefully checked coach passengers' tickets, I announced to a conductor, "I'm riding in the private cars," and walked by. The conductor seemed remarkably uninterested in me, and just reminded me that the private cars were on the end of the train.
Click to expand...

sounds nice. i've always wanted to ride in the skytop observation car i see parked at st paul(i would settle for the great dome, also).


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Hey, the EB is doing pretty well right now! This worst delay is 1:18 from 7(5), It's even estimated to arrive at SEA as much as 40 minutes early, though we all know how accurate the ETA is. Train is currently holding 50 mph heading towards ESX.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

yarrow said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Golden grrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for the detailed assessment. Gee, one would think that Amtrak could have done a better job planning that trip. 5 Private cars and barely enough power to get over Marias Pass, plus running out of food sounds like someone did a poor job of provisioning. Having been on quite a few late LD trains, once you lose your "slot" things just seem to snowball.......
> 
> 
> 
> An announcement one of the conductors made about having just the two engines suggested that the problem was simply that another loco just wasn't available in Seattle. I hope Amtrak was paid sufficiently to haul those private cars for it to help pay current bills. We had seen the same cars on my CS [30] from CA to Seattle:
> Mid-America Mohave MRLX 800651
> 
> Wisconsin Valley Lounge 800787
> 
> The Milwaukee River 800195
> 
> MIlwaukee Road Superdome 800862
> 
> Lamberts Point 800702
> 
> Overheard an employee on board one of these otherwise empty cars that there had been a Levi Strauss private conference that used these cars in California.
> 
> Re: provisioning. This is only gossip I overheard, but it seemed that Amtrak is REALLY REALLY trying to be conservative with ANY outgo of money or supplies right now and for the past month or so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Both the private cars on the end of #28(2) that was so late and #7(4) were Friends of the 261 cars, that had been rented for Levi's Station to Station tour. Way too hipster for my tastes, but talking to the crew, apparently it was a fun time for them. After the end of the tour, the Friends had to deadhead the cars home, so they split them between two routes and sold tickets.
> I couldn't afford to ride all the way from California, but I did manage to fly down in the morning on Southwest, spend a few hours looking at mosaics on downtown buildings, and then ride back in the _Cedar Rapids _and the _Wisconsin Valley. _The latter is a former Le Pub car (and apparently a hospital car before that).
> 
> I'm not sure how many passengers were in the private cars on *Golden grrrl*'s train, but there were a dozen on our trip, including four rail enthusiasts from England who flew over to San Francisco to ride the private cars to St. Paul, are returning to Great Britain tonight and then flying back to Minneapolis next weekend for the 261 steam excursion.
> 
> The British group with all their flying made my flying down to Chicago to ride the _Cedar Rapids _back to St. Paul seem positively sensible.
> 
> We were about two hours late into St. Paul. We lost half an hour over a problem with one of the _Cedar Rapids_' brake shoes, but the real culprit was an interlocking by the Pig's Eye yard just outside St. Paul. Something screwed up the signalling, so repairs had to be made before the interlocking would allow the dispatcher to switch us on to the proper track. It was maddening to be stopped within sight of downtown St. Paul, and not be able to do anything. Well, as it turned out, there was something I could do. I went back to the _Wisconsin Valley_ for another Sierra Nevada.
> 
> I like how you board a private car. No standing in line, no kindergarten walk, no show of identity or tickets. On Friday I waited in the Great Hall until 1:45 p.m., then walked to the north side of the station. While Amtrak personnel carefully checked coach passengers' tickets, I announced to a conductor, "I'm riding in the private cars," and walked by. The conductor seemed remarkably uninterested in me, and just reminded me that the private cars were on the end of the train.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> sounds nice. i've always wanted to ride in the skytop observation car i see parked at st paul(i would settle for the great dome, also).
Click to expand...

The repositioning moves the Friends of 261 do can be real bargins. Keep looking at their website for postings. I've had the pleasure of riding on two of their repostioning moves - one time having the good fortune of bumping into Mr. & Mrs. Ispolkom.

Golden Girl's comment about Amtrak having less food onboard is a reminder to everyone to eat early! Especially while the Feds remain shutdown, as I would think Amtrak would/should do their best to conserve cash right at the moment, so the trains can at least run as long as possible if the shutdown drags on and on.


----------



## montana mike

Take note ALL. Every EB is "green" this AM--first time that I can recall this in at least 6 months!!! It may not last, but weekends do certainly help with the performance.

;-))))))


----------



## SarahZ

Every time someone asks why I buy snacks for the train when I'm in a sleeper, I point to threads like this.


----------



## MrFSS

montana mike said:


> Take note ALL. Every EB is "green" this AM--first time that I can recall this in at least 6 months!!! It may not last, but weekends do certainly help with the performance.
> 
> ;-))))))


We have friends in SD and they had 31 inches of snow. Was the highline affected?


----------



## Ispolkom

I don't think so. The storm had turned to rain by the time it got to Minnesota. Minot was cold and windy, but no snow. But, winter is coming.

ETA. Southern North Dakota got hit, but not much on the Hi Line


----------



## montana mike

Wyoming Mtns and the Black hills of SD were the main targets of last weekend's snow--no melting rapidly btw.


----------



## montana mike

Well the greens lasted for just one brief moment. #7 in MT just lost about three hours going thru the construction and #8 currently in WI lost about 1 1/4 hours after leaving MSP. It was nice while it lasted.

:-(


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Well the greens lasted for just one brief moment. #7 in MT just lost about three hours going thru the construction and #8 currently in WI lost about 1 1/4 hours after leaving MSP. It was nice while it lasted.
> 
> :-(


Indeed, almost everything is red again. The only thing still green is the 8 (7), which just departed SEA on-time.


----------



## jebr

What happened in St. Cloud today? According to my Status Maps emails, it arrived at 9:17 but didn't leave until 10:07.


----------



## anir dendroica

St. Cloud is a crew change point. Probably waiting on a rested crew, as hours get all out of whack when trains run late.


----------



## montana mike

Another brutal day for the EBs. East bound #8 in MT lost almost 3 hours between Libby and West Glacier-usually a place where they can make up time (and they still have to go thru the worst area this evening-not looking good for this train at all) and #8 in MN is well over 4 hours behind and continues to lose time (best guesstimate into CHI is well after 8 PM). My BNSF guy says some of the delays are due to construction, but a good part may be due to increased freight traffic, which he noted has picked up in a push to move products before winter sets in along the hi-line, especially grain and energy related products and materials for these construction projects. He said expect at least another two weeks of some significant delays from time to time (mostly Monday thru Friday), with a slow down in activity after the second week in November.

:-(


----------



## yarrow

montana mike said:


> Another brutal day for the EBs. East bound #8 in MT lost almost 3 hours between Libby and West Glacier-usually a place where they can make up time (and they still have to go thru the worst area this evening-not looking good for this train at all) and #8 in MN is well over 4 hours behind and continues to lose time (best guesstimate into CHI is well after 8 PM). My BNSF guy says some of the delays are due to construction, but a good part may be due to increased freight traffic, which he noted has picked up in a push to move products before winter sets in along the hi-line, especially grain and energy related products and materials for these construction projects. He said expect at least another two weeks of some significant delays from time to time (mostly Monday thru Friday), with a slow down in activity after the second week in November.
> 
> :-(


eastbound 8 is now shown as a service disruption at shelby. anyone know what happened?


----------



## montana mike

#8 in ND is now over 8 hours behind. Clearly something major happened to cause this delay.

:-(


----------



## montana mike

Wow, #8, still in ND is now over 9 hours behind. Looks like one of those 1 AM arrivals into CHI-town!!! Bummer. I wonder what happened?


----------



## Bob Dylan

It does look like the West Bound #7/#27 do a lot Better on the Hi Line and even Make Up All or Most of the Downtime before Arrival into SEA and PDX! Todays #7 and #27 are Right on Time! 

Hope this Continues, we'll be on #7/#27 out of CHI to PDX after the Gathering and Connecting to #11 for LAX!!!


----------



## Steve4031

I'm on 7 today out of Chicago. I'm in union station now ready to go. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## montana mike

Steve4031 said:


> I'm on 7 today out of Chicago. I'm in union station now ready to go. I'll keep you posted.


Have any of the Amtrak people at Union Station said why the inbound #8, still in MN is over 9 hours late???


----------



## Bob Dylan

Steve4031 said:


> I'm on 7 today out of Chicago. I'm in union station now ready to go. I'll keep you posted.


:hi: Thanks, have a great Trip Steve!!!


----------



## tim49424

montana mike said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on 7 today out of Chicago. I'm in union station now ready to go. I'll keep you posted.
> 
> 
> 
> Have any of the Amtrak people at Union Station said why the inbound #8, still in MN is over 9 hours late???
Click to expand...

Friend of mine told me that one of the engines died. He didn't elaborate, but I'm assuming that it's now on BNSF power.


----------



## Steve4031

I didn't think to ask when I was in the lounge. I discovered I left my kindle at home, so spent my 45 minutes in the lounge eating lunch and downloading kindle books onto my iPod touch using the wifi.


----------



## Steve4031

Ill look at the power on 8 when we meet and try and let you know.


----------



## montana mike

Amtrak has had quite a few "power" failures recently. Perhaps just bad luck or?????


----------



## tim49424

montana mike said:


> Perhaps just bad luck or?????



Is there any such thing as "Good Luck" on the Empire Builder in the last couple years? LOL


----------



## montana mike

Good Point. Every time they appear to getting back to a reasonable schedule something like this happens. I would expect #7 departing tomorrow may be delayed in its departure.

:-(


----------



## Steve4031

7 that departed Chicago is doing ok with me on it. About 15 minutes late. Been looking for 8 for past hour. Did not see it but out may have been on other side.

The sca in 730 car is also working as a server in the diner. He's gonna be tired by the end of the trip.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Steve4031 said:


> 7 that departed Chicago is doing ok with me on it. About 15 minutes late. Been looking for 8 for past hour. Did not see it but out may have been on other side.
> 
> The sca in 730 car is also working as a server in the diner. He's gonna be tired by the end of the trip.


And have Good Tips!


----------



## Steve4031

We are about 15 mikes east of Minot. Pretty close to on time. Iirc the construction zone is between Minot and havre.

The scoop not the missing dining car waiter: a trainee was on the 10 hr late 8. He got iff of 8 in msp and boarded 7. This morning the sca in 730 car was on task. Car was in order, and my room made up after breakfast.


----------



## Steve4031

Bnsf is building a state of the art railroad up here. Concrete ties on passing siding. Almost like riding the chief across Arizona and California.


----------



## Steve4031

Just saw two superliner cars siting on a side track at Stanley. One was a sleeper. Just what Amtrak needs. More cars out if service.


----------



## Steve4031

Just arrived havre. Taking on fuel. A busy railroad today. From Minot to havre most sidings had a waiting eastbound freight. We over took one eb freight too. A great way to spend Saturday.


----------



## montana mike

Freight traffic is indeed heavy. Even with reduced track work over the weekend #8 in WI is around 3 1/2 hours late into CHI tonight-oh, well....


----------



## Steve4031

Early into Shelby. We passed another superliner car sitting in Devon siding.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Why are all the Superliners set out and stting there? Mechanical problems?


----------



## Steve4031

I don't know. I'm curios myself. I saw 2 in one spot and 1 at another. So 3 cars. One was a sleeper. Did not get a good look at others.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Steve4031 said:


> I don't know. I'm curios myself. I saw 2 in one spot and 1 at another. So 3 cars. One was a sleeper. Did not get a good look at others.


That sure is not good with Amtrak's fleet shortages, not as chronic as the shortages of another transport company but still pretty bad. I heard that they were able to spare a pair of extra Superliners for the HF.


----------



## montana mike

#7 arrived in WFH tonight--ON TIME!!! First time in many weeks. Yea!!! #8 did arrive in CHI 3 1/2 hours late today--better than yesterday-10 1/2 hrs late and the day before- 5+ hours late....The WFH Stationmaster said BNSF told them they will be wrapping up several of their projects in MT by the end of October, so things should improve a little more at that time. The Superliners on the sidings enroute are a concern...........


----------



## Steve4031

I Suspect some of these cars contributed to delays by being bad ordered and setting off hot box detectors.

Seven arrive early into Seattle at 9:45. Overall a great trip.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Glad the see the EB doing better, now to see if it hold up, which it rarely does. Winter delays might be htting soon, and that won't be good.


----------



## Big Green Chauvanist

I was on board 7 and it arrived in Seattle this morning 30 minutes early! Just like old times when its on-time performance was pretty stellar. Don't know about 27. Only slight delays around Williston--nothing major. Longest delay was actually on the single track east of Monroe, Washington, waiting for a freight for about ten minutes.

I also took the Capitol Limited Sunday evening, which arrived Monday into Chicago--also thirty minutes early.


----------



## montana mike

Eastbound did not fare as well--now over SIX hours late and still not in Chicago. Looks like an arrival waaay after 10 PM now.

:-(


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

EB is still in the red but not that bad. 7(15) has been holding a reletively constant delay, 8 (15) is getting slightly worse at every station, possibly stuck behind a freight.


----------



## greatcats

I just got off the 6 hour late#8 less than two hours ago. You can read about it in my post which was not meant as a Travelogue, but it was moved there. 48 was held for us and it was on the adjacent track for those transferring. While this lateness isn't great, overall it was a good trip from Seattle. We all agreed the crews were great


----------



## CHamilton

8 (15) lost time at the beginning of the run due to loco problems, but stayed around 1:40 late until Minot, where it lost another hour (not sure why, as I fell asleep). Now approaching Devils Lake around 3 hours down.


----------



## CHamilton

8(15) now at Fargo, 4 hours down. Apparently they had to take a 'belligerent drunk' off the train last night.


----------



## Bill

Golden grrl said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for the detailed assessment. Gee, one would think that Amtrak could have done a better job planning that trip. 5 Private cars and barely enough power to get over Marias Pass, plus running out of food sounds like someone did a poor job of provisioning. Having been on quite a few late LD trains, once you lose your "slot" things just seem to snowball.......
> 
> 
> 
> An announcement one of the conductors made about having just the two engines suggested that the problem was simply that another loco just wasn't available in Seattle. I hope Amtrak was paid sufficiently to haul those private cars for it to help pay current bills. We had seen the same cars on my CS [30] from CA to Seattle:
> 
> Mid-America Mohave MRLX 800651
> 
> Wisconsin Valley Lounge 800787
> 
> The Milwaukee River 800195
> 
> MIlwaukee Road Superdome 800862
> 
> Lamberts Point 800702
> 
> Overheard an employee on board one of these otherwise empty cars that there had been a Levi Strauss private conference that used these cars in California.
> 
> Re: provisioning. This is only gossip I overheard, but it seemed that Amtrak is REALLY REALLY trying to be conservative with ANY outgo of money or supplies right now and for the past month or so.
Click to expand...

There were 13 of us that rode these private cars from EMY to SEA on the CS, overnight there, then on to MSP on the EB. Our sleeper was the Minnesota River. The first two cars on your list were empty. We had the run of the Lamberts Point and the Superdome and told to make ourselves at home with the bar. Their chef prepared all our meals and provided snacks.

Arriving at MSP, I continued on on the EB. Because we arrived in Milwaukee so late, I missed the last Hiawatha to the airport. Amtrak used their heads and saved some money. Rather than giving me a taxi voucher to the airport, the EB did a rare stop at the airport station to let me off.


----------



## CHamilton

8(15) approaching Glenview. The final indignity was that we got stuck behind a Metra train with a 'police situation'. Good thing that the AU group is going to Chicago! The crew did an excellent job of keeping everyone informed, though.


----------



## montana mike

When it rains it pours! :-(

Look like a little over 5 hours late into CHI.


----------



## CHamilton

Yes, 8(15) got in around 9 PM.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Things are getting better so far, 7 (16) is only 2:11 late now. Might get to its destinations only 1 hour late.


----------



## montana mike

Currently on #8 in ND. Around 1 hour behind-all due to heavy freight traffic. Other than that an uneventful trip so far. Beautiful ride thru GNP--snow capped peaks, brilliant yellow and gold aspens and tamaracks!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Currently on #8 in ND. Around 1 hour behind-all due to heavy freight traffic. Other than that an uneventful trip so far. Beautiful ride thru GNP--snow capped peaks, brilliant yellow and gold aspens and tamaracks!


Not bad, not bad for the EB! The Summer Blues are over now, but wait, it's already October! :excl: Winter storms are gonna come through and really bog down the EB again.


----------



## Steve Manfred

About how often does the Empire Builder westbound miss the connection in Portland to the Coast Starlight? And if it does miss it, you're stuck in sport land for a day waiting for the next Coast Starlight, yes?


----------



## ScottRu

According to this site, EB westbound to PDX averaging only 14 minutes late for the past week.

http://www.amtrakdelays.onlineschedulingsoftware.com/cgi-bin/train.cgi


----------



## montana mike

Swadian Hardcore said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Currently on #8 in ND. Around 1 hour behind-all due to heavy freight traffic. Other than that an uneventful trip so far. Beautiful ride thru GNP--snow capped peaks, brilliant yellow and gold aspens and tamaracks!
> 
> 
> 
> Not bad, not bad for the EB! The Summer Blues are over now, but wait, it's already October! :excl: Winter storms are gonna come through and really bog down the EB again.
Click to expand...

Just left St. Cloud-now over 3 hours behind. They had to fix a mechanical issue in MOT, then we stopped for more freight traffic several times--arrgh. Of the 3+ hours of delays it would appear freight traffic has caused all but 40 minutes of the delay. Hoping to make up a little time in MSP, but likely about 2 1/2 hours late into CHI today.

:-(((


----------



## NW cannonball

Steve Manfred said:


> About how often does the Empire Builder westbound miss the connection in Portland to the Coast Starlight? And if it does miss it, you're stuck in sport land for a day waiting for the next Coast Starlight, yes?


That's a connection that is rarely missed. A day in Portland at Amtrak's expense is well worth it -- IF -- you have the time.


----------



## Steve Manfred

NW cannonball said:


> Steve Manfred said:
> 
> 
> 
> About how often does the Empire Builder westbound miss the connection in Portland to the Coast Starlight? And if it does miss it, you're stuck in sport land for a day waiting for the next Coast Starlight, yes?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a connection that is rarely missed. A day in Portland at Amtrak's expense is well worth it -- IF -- you have the time.
Click to expand...

The time's the issue, of course.  Thanks for the reply.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

montana mike said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Currently on #8 in ND. Around 1 hour behind-all due to heavy freight traffic. Other than that an uneventful trip so far. Beautiful ride thru GNP--snow capped peaks, brilliant yellow and gold aspens and tamaracks!
> 
> 
> 
> Not bad, not bad for the EB! The Summer Blues are over now, but wait, it's already October! :excl: Winter storms are gonna come through and really bog down the EB again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just left St. Cloud-now over 3 hours behind. They had to fix a mechanical issue in MOT, then we stopped for more freight traffic several times--arrgh. Of the 3+ hours of delays it would appear freight traffic has caused all but 40 minutes of the delay. Hoping to make up a little time in MSP, but likely about 2 1/2 hours late into CHI today.
> 
> :-(((
Click to expand...

I spoke too soon! Westbound 7 is doing pretty good these days, but eastbound 8 is bad and bad again.



NW cannonball said:


> Steve Manfred said:
> 
> 
> 
> About how often does the Empire Builder westbound miss the connection in Portland to the Coast Starlight? And if it does miss it, you're stuck in sport land for a day waiting for the next Coast Starlight, yes?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a connection that is rarely missed. A day in Portland at Amtrak's expense is well worth it -- IF -- you have the time.
Click to expand...

Portland is a nice city, the constant rain is the only issue.


----------



## TraneMan

What happend to 7 yesterday? Between CBS/POG it last over 3 hours!


----------



## montana mike

And #8 in eastern ND--it lost several hours there too! When I went thru there yesterday there was no construction, just heavy freight traffic. It would be hard to believe that freight delays caused that much of an issue for both, but then they amounted to almost all of my 2 1/2 hour delay in arriving in CHI last evening.


----------



## montana mike

Update on today's #8-now just under 4 hours behind in WI. My son is on that train and he said the delays appeared to be almost entirely to wait for freights from ND thru MN.

Going west bound #7 in MT is almost 5 1/2 hours late!!! Looks like freight issues there too.

Wow, the BNSF freight trains really came out of the woodwork this weekend.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

What freight are those BNSF trains pulling? Oil? Grain?


----------



## the_traveler

I'm on 7/27 right now and we are actually EARLY in La Cross, WI!


----------



## Fan_Trains

8(20) departed SEA on time, arrived EDM 4 min early, departed on time, arrived EVA on time, departed 2 min late.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

the_traveler said:


> I'm on 7/27 right now and we are actually EARLY in La Cross, WI!


That's not in the danger zone yet, let's see if the 8 gets into La Crosse on time!


----------



## NW cannonball

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What freight are those BNSF trains pulling? Oil? Grain?


OIl, yes, grain, yes, transcon containers from China via port of Seattle and Chicago to east coast yes. And coal on part of the route. And a few mixed manifest trains with this and that. Oh, lumber products too. And potash from Saskatchewan.

Lots of profitable traffic on the Hi-Line. Warren B was no dummy to buy the line and improve it. The few billion dollars of improvements has been slowing the "Empire Builder" and the BNSF freight on the line -- but - long term - like ten years out. Hey moneymaker cool fast freight tracks - the EB looks good for a decade or two.

Edit - oh, and agricultural inputs going west -- phosphoric acid and anhydrous ammonia. - and I see a unit train of sulfur at least weekly, and another unit train of sodium chlorate for paper bleaching (glad to see that replace the chlorine tankers)

Hey Montana Mike -- you know what freight traffic on that line..

J J Hill and Warren Buffet no fools. That hi-line is a freight winner,

So the "EB" - with more or less delay - will have busy rails to run on for the near future,


----------



## yarrow

NW cannonball said:


> J J Hill and Warren Buffet no fools. That hi-line is a freight winner,


we know what jj thought of passenger rail(useless as mammary glands on a boar). would have liked to hear him discourse on amtrak. wonder what warren thinks of passenger rail?


----------



## Fan_Trains

8(20) left LWA11 min late, arrived into WEN 9 min late, left at 7 min late, arrive into EPH at 4 min late, left at 5 min late, arrived into SPK at 53 min early, left at 7 min late, arrived in SPT at 13 min late, left 16 min late, arrive into LIB at 7 min late, left 10 min late, arrive into WFH 22 min late, left 14 min late, arrive into WGL 20 min late, left at 22 min late.


----------



## Ispolkom

It's not too early to start worrying about next year's flood in Minot.


----------



## Fan_Trains

8(20) left BRO 12 min late, arrived in CUT 23 min late, left at 25 min Late, arrived in SBY 1 min late, left 9 min late, arrived in HAV at 37 min late, left 28 min late, arrived in MAL 21 min late, left 22 min late.


----------



## Nathanael

Ispolkom said:


> It's not too early to start worrying about next year's flood in Minot.


I'd suggest building the floodwalls now.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

NW cannonball said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What freight are those BNSF trains pulling? Oil? Grain?
> 
> 
> 
> OIl, yes, grain, yes, transcon containers from China via port of Seattle and Chicago to east coast yes. And coal on part of the route. And a few mixed manifest trains with this and that. Oh, lumber products too. And potash from Saskatchewan.
> 
> Lots of profitable traffic on the Hi-Line. Warren B was no dummy to buy the line and improve it. The few billion dollars of improvements has been slowing the "Empire Builder" and the BNSF freight on the line -- but - long term - like ten years out. Hey moneymaker cool fast freight tracks - the EB looks good for a decade or two.
> 
> Edit - oh, and agricultural inputs going west -- phosphoric acid and anhydrous ammonia. - and I see a unit train of sulfur at least weekly, and another unit train of sodium chlorate for paper bleaching (glad to see that replace the chlorine tankers)
> 
> Hey Montana Mike -- you know what freight traffic on that line..
> 
> J J Hill and Warren Buffet no fools. That hi-line is a freight winner,
> 
> So the "EB" - with more or less delay - will have busy rails to run on for the near future,
Click to expand...

Why don't the container ships go to San Francisco or Los Angeles? It's a bit farther sailing but seems to be better locations. I've seen lots of containers moored in San Pedro.


----------



## Fan_Trains

8(20) left MAL 22 min late, arrived into GGW 1 hour 57 min late, left 1 hour 44 min late, arrived in WPT 1 hour 50 min late, left 1 hour 51 min late.


----------



## montana mike

NW cannonball said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What freight are those BNSF trains pulling? Oil? Grain?
> 
> 
> 
> OIl, yes, grain, yes, transcon containers from China via port of Seattle and Chicago to east coast yes. And coal on part of the route. And a few mixed manifest trains with this and that. Oh, lumber products too. And potash from Saskatchewan.
> 
> Lots of profitable traffic on the Hi-Line. Warren B was no dummy to buy the line and improve it. The few billion dollars of improvements has been slowing the "Empire Builder" and the BNSF freight on the line -- but - long term - like ten years out. Hey moneymaker cool fast freight tracks - the EB looks good for a decade or two.
> 
> Edit - oh, and agricultural inputs going west -- phosphoric acid and anhydrous ammonia. - and I see a unit train of sulfur at least weekly, and another unit train of sodium chlorate for paper bleaching (glad to see that replace the chlorine tankers)
> 
> Hey Montana Mike -- you know what freight traffic on that line..
> 
> J J Hill and Warren Buffet no fools. That hi-line is a freight winner,
> 
> So the "EB" - with more or less delay - will have busy rails to run on for the near future,
Click to expand...

My BNSf contacts say an increase in Inter Modal trains, energy trains and seasonal increases in Agriculture (grain), plus exports of vehicles


----------



## Fan_Trains

8(20) left WPT 1 hour 51 min late, arrived into WTN 1 hour 58 min late, left 2 hours 7 min late.


----------



## EB_OBS

TraneMan said:


> What happend to 7 yesterday? Between CBS/POG it last over 3 hours!


Disabled freight.


----------



## Joe F

Taking the EB to Chicago on Saturday, with a connection to DER via the Wolverine service. With a 2-hour connection in Chicago, the question isn't whether a bus will be involved, but rather which leg it will be used on. I've been making this trip once or twice a year for 25+ years, and never had a bus until about 4 years ago. Since then, every trip has involved a bus. Amtrak, please fix this.

At least I'll get to ride the upgraded 110 MPH segment between Kalamazoo, MI and Porter, IN. When the mileposts fly by every 35 seconds, you know you're moving!


----------



## Fan_Trains

8(20) arrived into STN 2 hours 7 min late, left at 2 hours 9 min late, left MOT 2 hours 57 min late, arrived in RUG 2 hours 56 min late, left at 2 hours 58 min late, arrived in DVL 3 hours 10 min late, left at 14 min late, arrived in GFK 3 hours 9 min late, left at 3 hours 13 min late, arrived in FAR at 4 hours 3 min late, left at 4 hour 8 min late, arrived DLK 4 hours 6 min late, left at 4 hours 10 min late, arrived in SPL at 4 hours 20 min late, left at 4 hours 28 min late, arrived in SCD 4 hours 20 min late, left at 4 hours 25 min late.


----------



## Joe F

Westbound 7 is running about 4 hours late into SEA. What are the chances that 8 will depart on time this evening? I will be riding it from MSP to CHI on Saturday, but given the problems in ND, my 2-hour connection to Wolverine 354 is probably toast anyway. I'm just curious if I should expect a bustitution between MSP-CHI or CHI-DER.


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## greatcats

Joe F - Last week, on Wed., Oct. 16, I was on Train 8 which arrived Chicago over six hours late a few minutes after 10 pm. I was going to the Gathering, so it was not a problem for us, although an earlier arrival would have been better. After leaving Milwaukee, it was announced that two connections were being made: Train 48, which was on the adjacenet track when our train arrived and left at 10:24pm, and that a bus was being provided for passengers on Train 354 to Pontiac, which I see is scheduled to leave at 6pm. All other connections were to involve an overnight in Chicago. Whether this will be done for you I can't say, but this is how the matter was handled last week.


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## Joe F

greatcats said:


> Joe F - Last week, on Wed., Oct. 16, I was on Train 8 which arrived Chicago over six hours late a few minutes after 10 pm. I was going to the Gathering, so it was not a problem for us, although an earlier arrival would have been better. After leaving Milwaukee, it was announced that two connections were being made: Train 48, which was on the adjacenet track when our train arrived and left at 10:24pm, and that a bus was being provided for passengers on Train 354 to Pontiac, which I see is scheduled to leave at 6pm. All other connections were to involve an overnight in Chicago. Whether this will be done for you I can't say, but this is how the matter was handled last week.


The last few times I've made this trip, they have usually run a bus as a substitute for 354. However, if 8/28 is running very late (say 6-8 hours down in Montana), they will sometimes run a bus from MSP to CHI, arriving in time to make the connection to 354. That happened to me about 5 years ago (and we were further delayed an hour when the bus broke down a half mile out of MSP Midway station!).


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## Bob Dylan

On Sundays WB #7/#27 we ran on time to MSP and by Fargo were 3hours down until we Glacier Atea! By the time we reached PDX

We were only 30 mins down! The Easy Bound #8/#28 seem to be the real problem trains! Ymmv!


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## bgiaquin

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What freight are those BNSF trains pulling? Oil? Grain?


The main traffic on the Northern Trascon is Grain, Intermodal, and oil.


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## montana mike

I see three of the four EBs today are verrrrry late--Are the delays just the continuing construction and freight traffic issues or are other factors in play here? I am going to be on #7 out of CHI today, so hopefully I can avoid some of these delays.


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## TraneMan

My partner is in CHI now. He was suppose to catch #8 today from WIN to CHI.

I got an email from Amtrak about the delay, and Alt Transportation is offered. He was debating back and forth on taking the bus or wait for the train.

Saw it was even more late, I called Amtrak and told them that Eric wanted to take the bus. He had a party to go this evening in CHI, and didn't want to be late for that. He said he arrived in CHI an hour late on the bus.

I didn't get a chance to talk to him to see how the bus ride was.


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## ScottRu

montana mike said:


> I see three of the four EBs today are verrrrry late--Are the delays just the continuing construction and freight traffic issues or are other factors in play here? I am going to be on #7 out of CHI today, so hopefully I can avoid some of these delays.


From the Amtrak site:

"

Empire Builder Trains 7/27 and 8/28: Temporary Service Delays

Please be advised the Empire Builder has been experiencing delays of two hours or more while operating in North Dakota and Montana.

This is primarily due to temporary speed restrictions imposed by BNSF Railway Co. while it carries out track improvement work. We expect these issues to continue through the construction season this November.

Largely unaffected are Empire Builder trains westbound from Chicago to Fargo, ND, via St. Paul, and Empire Builder trains eastbound from Seattle and Portland to Shelby, MT, via Spokane.

As with all transportation modes, passengers should check for delays before heading to their boarding locations. The most up-to-date Amtrak arrival and departure times are available on Amtrak.com, our free mobile apps and at 1-800-USA-RAIL (1-800-872-7245).

Thank you for traveling with Amtrak. We appreciate your patronage and apologize for any inconvenience.

Join us on facebook.com/Amtrak, and follow us on twitter.com/Amtrak."


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## montana mike

I continue on the westbound #7 in ND this AM--about 1 hour down on the schedule. No maintenance going on, just some freight traffic and interestingly, still slow orders thru Devils Lake (20-25 mph) area, even though it would appear the track work in that area has been completed for this year. Hopefully we can make up some time along the route.

I see for the second day in a row #8 in MN is also 5+ hours late, having lost 4 of those hours in its trek thru MT and ND--ouch.


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## yarrow

i see 8 is over 7 hours behind out of gfk this morning. anyone know why?


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## montana mike

Now 9 hours late--what a mess for this trip-ouch!!!! Perhaps an engine failure with slower BNSF "helper" for much of the trip?


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## gn2276

A disabled frieght at Whitefish and at Havre.


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## montana mike

And now #8 that departed SEA tonight left there 2 1/2 hours late--that one will be very late arriving in CHI as well. Looks like #8 now in WI will arrive CHI some time around 1 AM on 10-31, about 9 hours late.

Bummer……


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## Ispolkom

montana mike said:


> Now 9 hours late--what a mess for this trip-ouch!!!! Perhaps an engine failure with slower BNSF "helper" for much of the trip?


Mrs. Ispolkom works near St. Paul Union Depot. When I picked her up after work yesterday a little before 5 p.m., she pointed out the much-delayed #8 going by. Ouch, indeed, especially since we'll using it to connect to #448 next month.


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## Joe F

The trip from MSP to CHI last Saturday, 10/26, was a bustitution, due to 8/28 being 4 hours behind schedule. They ran one bus direct to Chicago for those of us making connections there, and another bus for everyone else. We arrived in CHI with plenty of time for my connection to Wolverine #354.

Return trip 10/30 on 7/27 was right on schedule, arriving MSP 10 minutes early. That train got through ND OK, and is currently only 1 minute late out of Wenatchee.


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## montana mike

Glad Amtrak had a "Plan B" for you!!

Today's east bound #8, just entering MN is also waaaaaaaaay behind, now 7 1/2 hours late. Yesterday's #8 arrival was about 2 1/2 hours behind, the day before 8 hours 42 minutes late, and the day before that 3 hours 24 minutes late. My BNSF contact here in MT just said one word: Freight.

On my round trip on the EB over the past two weeks the freight traffic was by far the main contributor to the delays. I actually saw almost no active construction, but we waited for numerous freights both east and west bound.


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## The Davy Crockett

montana mike said:


> Glad Amtrak had a "Plan B" for you!!
> 
> Today's east bound #8, just entering MN is also waaaaaaaaay behind, now 7 1/2 hours late. Yesterday's #8 arrival was about 2 1/2 hours behind, the day before 8 hours 42 minutes late, and the day before that 3 hours 24 minutes late. My BNSF contact here in MT just said one word: Freight.
> 
> On my round trip on the EB over the past two weeks the freight traffic was by far the main contributor to the delays. I actually saw almost no active construction, but we waited for numerous freights both east and west bound.


So much for notion that Warren Buffett is "Amtrak Friendly." Maybe Amtrak Joe needs to stop by the White House and have a word with him the next time WB is in town visiting.


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## montana mike

Warren B is coining $$$ on the hi-line. Between increasing Intermodal traffic, seasonal agricultural trains and increased energy movement this line is booming. I am reminded by my BNSF friends that the track upgrades for this entire region are part of a multi-year process and the fruits of their labors will not be fully appreciated until all of the work is completed. BNSF is actually being inhibited from increasing their own movements as much as they would like due to these efforts. Meanwhile we will just have to deal with sometimes excessive delays (i.e. 6-9 hours delays) into CHI on the eastbound trains, especially during the summer construction months, although the realized delays over the past couple weeks do not appear to be much different than the worst days of the summer, so I am beginning to think this may be more of a year around "experience" .

:-(


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## jebr

montana mike said:


> Warren B is coining $$$ on the hi-line. Between increasing Intermodal traffic, seasonal agricultural trains and increased energy movement this line is booming. I am reminded by my BNSF friends that the track upgrades for this entire region are part of a multi-year process and the fruits of their labors will not be fully appreciated until all of the work is completed. BNSF is actually being inhibited from increasing their own movements as much as they would like due to these efforts. Meanwhile we will just have to deal with sometimes excessive delays (i.e. 6-9 hours delays) into CHI on the eastbound trains, especially during the summer construction months, although the realized delays over the past couple weeks do not appear to be much different than the worst days of the summer, so I am beginning to think this may be more of a year around "experience" .
> 
> :-(


If, at the end of it all, Amtrak can actually increase the running speed of the Builder, then it may be worth it. But if Amtrak is constrained to the same schedule but simply running on time, I'm not sure what actual benefit this has to Amtrak (delayed a lot without a lot of benefit other than rehabbed track that Amtrak should expect from regular maintenance anyways.)


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## ALC Rail Writer

Buffet knew what he was doing when he bought BNSF, one thing he was betting on was an increase of oil and gas production from the Northern US and Canada. NS has been picking up gas cars that have been fracked out of Ohio, the gas ends up in Canada to be used in the processing of tar sands.


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## ScottRu

I'll be boarding the EB in Chicago on 11/11 heading for Portland (after having taken the Lakeshore Limited from Boston). It will be interesting (to say the least) to find out just how late we arrive.

I have to be at my nephew's wedding on the 16th... so if we are 5 days late, I'm in trouble.

LOL


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## The Davy Crockett

And now come the rains in the Northwest... 7-Day Forecast for Seattle from the NWS


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## montana mike

Another day and another eastbound EB almost 8 hours late coming out of ND--ouch!


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## ScottRu

Only predicted 45 minutes (+/-) late arriving in Portland today.


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## Garethe7

Did the switch to standard time help #8 today, the delay doesn't seem as bad approaching MSP.


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## montana mike

Looks like the combination of the weekend and gaining an hour overnight has helped todays #8 in MN! Only about 90 minutes behind schedule now


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