# Policy change for loophole trips?



## MisterToad

Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip. I asked when the policy changed, and she said, "Unfortunately, I can't tell you." I was thinking that the agent made up this policy on the spot, so I decided to employ the hang up and call back method. This morning when I called, the agent I spoke to again told me that there was a policy change, and the trip would be a 2 zone trip.

It seems possible for one agent to make up a new policy, but it seems unlikely to me that two agents would make up the same policy, so now I'm concerned that AGR really has changed its policy for loophole trips. Has anyone successfully booked a loophole trip in the last few days? I will probably still take the trip - 30,000 points in a bedroom is still a good deal, just not as good a deal as 20,000 points.


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## Bob Dylan

MisterToad said:


> Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip. I asked when the policy changed, and she said, "Unfortunately, I can't tell you." I was thinking that the agent made up this policy on the spot, so I decided to employ the hang up and call back method. This morning when I called, the agent I spoke to again told me that there was a policy change, and the trip would be a 2 zone trip.
> It seems possible for one agent to make up a new policy, but it seems unlikely to me that two agents would make up the same policy, so now I'm concerned that AGR really has changed its policy for loophole trips. Has anyone successfully booked a loophole trip in the last few days? I will probably still take the trip - 30,000 points in a bedroom is still a good deal, just not as good a deal as 20,000 points.


Hopefully this was AGRs version of an April fools joke!  Several members have booked this loophole recently including one of our resident AGR gurus,

I have taken it myself, a great trip for sure! (you can actually go from KWD-KCY on the MORR in biz class,change to the SWC there on the loophole, or could??? ) There had had been mentions about spys on Flyertalk and wonder if the other loopholes on the AU list are endangered, I was planning one for summer and another for fallutilizing the 10% point rebate currently in effect! Think some of us need to call up AGR, speak with a Supervisor ASAP about this insidious and un-nerving development! Calling the_traveler, ship to shore, hopefully hes on dry land and can assist in this bad news matter! :unsure: :angry:


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## the_traveler

Say it ain't so!






​


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## Ispolkom

Yesterday I booked a one-zone AGR award Minot-Chicago-Washington-Slidell with absolutely no problem (except that bedrooms are already in short supply on the Empire Builder in November).

So if the KCY-CBS trip is now two zones, it's not a universal end to one-zone awards on trips that cross zone boundaries.


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## AlanB

the_traveler said:


> Say it ain't so!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


You didn't get enough rain up there already, so now you want to cry us a river? :lol:


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## GG-1

AlanB said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Say it ain't so!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't get enough rain up there already, so now you want to cry us a river? :lol:
Click to expand...

ROTFLOL, in the light rain this AM listening to 2 birds courting.


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## jis

GG-1 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Say it ain't so!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't get enough rain up there already, so now you want to cry us a river? :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ROTFLOL, in the light rain this AM listening to 2 birds courting.
Click to expand...

Bright sunshine here for a change. Just finished planting seeds for spring flowers


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## the_traveler

jis said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Say it ain't so!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't get enough rain up there already, so now you want to cry us a river? :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ROTFLOL, in the light rain this AM listening to 2 birds courting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bright sunshine here for a change. Just finished planting seeds for spring flowers
Click to expand...

Why do you think the tracks are flooded around KIN? :huh:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

But it is bright sunshine and dry with temps in the 60's and 70's for the next few days, so I hope the worst is over!


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## IHC

MisterToad said:


> Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip. I asked when the policy changed, and she said, "Unfortunately, I can't tell you." I was thinking that the agent made up this policy on the spot, so I decided to employ the hang up and call back method. This morning when I called, the agent I spoke to again told me that there was a policy change, and the trip would be a 2 zone trip.
> It seems possible for one agent to make up a new policy, but it seems unlikely to me that two agents would make up the same policy, so now I'm concerned that AGR really has changed its policy for loophole trips. Has anyone successfully booked a loophole trip in the last few days? I will probably still take the trip - 30,000 points in a bedroom is still a good deal, just not as good a deal as 20,000 points.



I say try calling back tomorrow (Saturday) and booking for one zone.


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## the_traveler

IHC said:


> I say try calling back tomorrow (*Saturday*) and booking for one zone.


It wouldn't work! AGR is only open Monday to Friday!


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## IHC

the_traveler said:


> IHC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I say try calling back tomorrow (*Saturday*) and booking for one zone.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't work! AGR is only open Monday to Friday!
Click to expand...


Oh bummer. You're right. Why did I think they was open Mon-Sat? :huh:


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## Trogdor

Someone on the inside told me a few days ago that AGR was close to making this policy change.


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## BigBlueBuddha

MisterToad said:


> Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip.


From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:

"Rewards are determined by the number of *zones *you travel across."

Oh well, maybe they'll be more generous with ways to earn points or increase the number of double, triple, etc. promotions.


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## Guest

jimhudson said:


> Hopefully this was AGRs version of an April fools joke!  Several members have booked this loophole recently including one of our resident AGR gurus,I have taken it myself, a great trip for sure! (you can actually go from KWD-KCY on the MORR in biz class,change to the SWC there on the loophole, or could??? ) There had had been mentions about spys on Flyertalk and wonder if the other loopholes on the AU list are endangered, I was planning one for summer and another for fallutilizing the 10% point rebate currently in effect! Think some of us need to call up AGR, speak with a Supervisor ASAP about this insidious and un-nerving development! Calling the_traveler, ship to shore, hopefully hes on dry land and can assist in this bad news matter! :unsure: :angry:


AGRinsider is exactly what I think is going on. This crap needs to be deleted to protect what we have left. The word loophole needs to be stricken from our vocabulary. The list and every thread that has ever mentioned loophole travel needs to be deleted.

Some folks say that Amtrak knows about these kinds of things and lets it slide since people that are crazy enough to do it would be big on promoting train travel. This is obviously not what is going on.

Mums the word on this type of travel (notice I didn't use the L word).


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## the_traveler

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> MisterToad said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip.
> 
> 
> 
> From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:
> 
> "Rewards are determined by the number of *zones* you travel across."
Click to expand...

If you take that literally, it should be 3 zones!


KWD/KCY-ABQ is the midwest zone

ABQ-WPT is the western zone

WPT-CBS is the midwest zone

So you travel across 3 zones!


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## Ispolkom

It's not personal, it's just business. If this change has occurred, I expect that it is because enough people are taking advantage of these routes that it's in AGR's interest to make (or enforce) rules making them cost more. I think that Guest is mistaken. It's not the discussion of [email protected]@pholes that causes changes like this, it's people taking them.

In any case I can recall a conversation with a clerk in January 2009 where he insisted that Atlanta-Washington-Chicago-Minot was a two-zone award, and I think I recall someone who last year was unable to book an AGR award Omaha-Sacramento-Portland-Columbus, so I'd like more data before I jump to any conclusions.


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## RRrich

I went over to FT - no mention of this topic Enough to make one wonder.


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## Rumpled

RRrich said:


> I went over to FT - no mention of this topic nor could I find the thread introducing Amtrak Insider.
> Enough to make one wonder.


Musta had dust in your eyes or something. It's still on the front page

Introducing Amtrak Insider

Bummer on the policy change.


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## RRrich

Rumpled said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went over to FT - no mention of this topic nor could I find the thread introducing Amtrak Insider.
> Enough to make one wonder.
> 
> 
> 
> Musta had dust in your eyes or something. It's still on the front page
> 
> Introducing Amtrak Insider
> 
> Bummer on the policy change.
Click to expand...

Maybe it was tears :unsure:


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## BigBlueBuddha

Rumpled said:


> Musta had dust in your eyes or something. It's still on the front pageIntroducing Amtrak Insider


Seems I've got dust in my eyes too. :lol:

I can't find any mention of you-know-what via that thread.


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## Shanghai

It was bound to happen!! I'm only sorry I wasn't able to take advantage of it!!

Let's see what AU clever minds will do next??


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## Guest

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> Rumpled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Musta had dust in your eyes or something. It's still on the front pageIntroducing Amtrak Insider
> 
> 
> 
> Seems I've got dust in my eyes too. :lol:
> 
> I can't find any mention of you-know-what via that thread.
Click to expand...

discussion of certain topics don't have to be in that thread. this stuff is all in the archives of both boards. i doubt they just showed up only to say hello and field any comments. if they are taking an interest they are taking an interest in all of it. it is not that hard to use the search function.


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## RRrich

With the rull change I feel a lot less love for Amtrak then I did.

On the other hand, the new question is how can we benefit from the new rule change? What flaws can we find and take advantage of??


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## Ispolkom

Has there actually been a rule change? Have the AGR T&C actually changed?

I don't doubt that Mr. Toad was told there was, but I was able to book a one-zone award last Thursday. Given the wide variance in what AGR clerks think the rules are, I'd like more data points.


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## PRR 60

Ispolkom said:


> Has there actually been a rule change? Have the AGR T&C actually changed?
> I don't doubt that Mr. Toad was told there was, but I was able to book a one-zone award last Thursday. Given the wide variance in what AGR clerks think the rules are, I'd like more data points.


I agree that we need a few more people denied before we can say goodbye to the fabled "loophole" trip. But, if they have gone the route of the "H571" discount code, it is not a huge surprise. There was just too much chatter. At some point someone would pick up on it.

As for Terms and Conditions, there are two sets: the public one which is viewable on the AGR website, and the far more detailed procedures that are provided to the AGR agents. The public T&C's provides very little "nuts and bolts" detail, and does not even address how the zone charges are determined. The internal procedures could easily be tweaked to count each zone in which travel takes place as a zone for determining the points required for a trip. That could be done with no change to the public T&C's.

Back to the "chatter" issue, I think one has to be aware that postings on sites like this and Flyertalk are indeed public. Were I in charge of a program like AGR, I would assign someone to monitor discussion boards to look for anything of interest - complaints, suggestions, and, of course, schemes to take advantage of program flaws. That recently happened at FT when postings stating how easy it was to call AGR and rebook prior reservations to take advantage of an AGR card points rebate promotion were very quickly followed by a change at AGR that made the practice much more difficult (coincidence? I think not). Just because AGR does not have an official membership presence here does not mean they do not take an occasional look around.

The "loopholes" are an interesting case. They have a very limited appeal: basically hardcore rail enthusiasts. Considering AGR membership in total (many of whom may rather have root canal than spend four straight nights on a train), they were probably not a huge volume threat. But they cost Amtrak revenue (not AGR - Amtrak), and they violated the intent of the zone system. The increase in the number of loophole postings, and even the listing of various loophole itineraries, may have caught someone's eye.

If, in fact, the loopholes are gone (and they may not be), my guess is that Amtrak saw postings here or elsewhere, and told AGR to tighten things up. It is one thing to brag about a plan to "beat the system" in private. It's another broadcast it such that everyone, including the people being harmed, can hear you.


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## soitgoes

While obviously I liked the old policy better, the new rule--if it is a new rule--makes sense.

In fact, a few years back I had expected to be charged 20K points for a roomette booking I made that was clearly a two-zone trip despite the fact that the start and end points were in the same zone. I was surprised to be charged just 15K. I was happy about it, of course, but in all honesty it's absurd.

As for AGR Insider on Flyertalk, AGR reps have long read FT. One doesn't need to post to read.


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## ALC Rail Writer

I was also informed by an inside source that closing this specific routing and that my trip raised a few red flags bEcause it forced departments to talk to eachother the question is where do you draw the line? There are people who need to go between Omaha and Wolf Point for instance.... They have no other choice.

The simple fact is that the zone system is ineffecive. SEA to LAX is over 30 hours with dive meals and is one zone whereas CHI to WAS is about 17 hours three meals and two zones IMHO there has to bea better way maybe charge points at a hourly rate?


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## RRrich

In the past I have been retrieving my AGR for high value loophole trips and paying cash for the trips I take "to get somewhere". If I can no longer get high value for my points I will retrieve them for lower value, for the trips I "have to take" and I will no longer ride amtrak for recreation - its too expensive. I suspect this will cost amtrak money, specially if others do the same thing.


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## Guest

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> I was also informed by an inside source that closing this specific routing and that my trip raised a few red flags bEcause it forced departments to talk to eachother the question is where do you draw the line? There are people who need to go between Omaha and Wolf Point for instance.... They have no other choice.
> The simple fact is that the zone system is ineffecive. SEA to LAX is over 30 hours with dive meals and is one zone whereas CHI to WAS is about 17 hours three meals and two zones IMHO there has to bea better way maybe charge points at a hourly rate?


So we know where to direct the stoneings now.

Some folks just don't understand that when you have a good thing going you don't make it complicated. It is called being slick.


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## Guest

RRrich said:


> In the past I have been retrieving my AGR for high value loophole trips and paying cash for the trips I take "to get somewhere". If I can no longer get high value for my points I will retrieve them for lower value, for the trips I "have to take" and I will no longer ride amtrak for recreation - its too expensive. I suspect this will cost amtrak money, specially if others do the same thing.


they don't care about people who take these kinds of trips. you know AGR is all about the NEC and everything else is just an afterthought. they didn't do enough afterthinking and now they catching up.


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## soitgoes

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The simple fact is that the zone system is ineffecive. SEA to LAX is over 30 hours with dive meals and is one zone whereas CHI to WAS is about 17 hours three meals and two zones IMHO there has to bea better way maybe charge points at a hourly rate?


Every system will have its good redemption values and poor redemption values. The zone system seems perfectly reasonable, but it does make sense to charge based on the number of zones traveled through. Charging a two zone rate from Wolf Point to Omaha seems just fine.


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## ALC Rail Writer

I have to agree that AGR is a NEC oriented entity but look at redemptions the vast majority are for NEC or other day services very very few are sleeper redemptions so in the long run this won't affect Amtrak all that much

and the guest will refrain from stoning me


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## the_traveler

I agree that AGR is mainly for the NEC riders. But I don't always the zone system doesn't make sense.

I can go from KIN to BUF for 3,000 points (about 14 hours) for a northeast zone coach award. Yet, if I want to go from BUF-CHI (about 9 hours) would cost me 8,000 for a 2 zone coach award, or 20,000 for a 2 zone roomette! 

Even if I "play by the rules", POR-MIA or POR-ATL is a 1 zone award. But if I want to go from CLE to SOB, that would cost me a 2 zone award - even though it is only a couple of hours.


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## Bigval109

soitgoes said:


> While obviously I liked the old policy better, the new rule--if it is a new rule--makes sense.
> In fact, a few years back I had expected to be charged 20K points for a roomette booking I made that was clearly a two-zone trip despite the fact that the start and end points were in the same zone. I was surprised to be charged just 15K. I was happy about it, of course, but in all honesty it's absurd.
> 
> As for AGR Insider on Flyertalk, AGR reps have long read FT. One doesn't need to post to read.


I was told I was ranting when I said this was going to happen. I also asked will we have to be careful what we post since AGR insider aka 006 was reporting to "M". Let's not forget that if this is your job and you are getting paid to find something you will. We just have to hope the damage is small and the rest of the special trips remain in tack. I was planning and saving to perhaps take one of the special trip next year. I wanted to ride down to alt and take a two zone reward from atl to lax.


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## AlanB

AGR was aware of "loophole" trips long before the AGR Insider came to FlyerTalk.

In fact it was probably at least 2 years ago that changes were made to curtail people booking out of Atlanta to the West Coast. Agents were supposed to question you if your address wasn't Atlanta and you requested such a trip.

Additionally steps were taken to stop people who would book a trip to/from Atlanta and just throw away the ATL-WAS tickets and only use the WAS to the west coast tickets.

These threads and the advent of AGR Insider had nothing to do with the recent changes.


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## soitgoes

Bigval109 said:


> I was told I was ranting when I said this was going to happen. I also asked will we have to be careful what we post since AGR insider aka 006 was reporting to "M".


Oh, good grief. If there is one certainty in award programs, it is this: loopholes will eventually get closed. Over time, loopholes become too popular to ignore.

AGR has a long history of making changes whenever they feel like it.

It's not a result of having an AGR Insider handle on Flyertalk.

Just some examples:

1) Instituting yearly transfer caps for outbound transfers

2) Instituting transfer qualifications; taking away online transfer request ability

3) Changing AGR:Choice redemption rate

Etc. etc.



AlanB said:


> AGR was aware of "loophole" trips long before the AGR Insider came to FlyerTalk.These threads and the advent of AGR Insider had nothing to do with the recent changes.


+1

Except all of the threads may have had something to do with it because the collection of various possibilities under names like "Loophole trips" certainly gave more face time to the idea and thus probably led to more people making such trips.


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## alanh

AlanB said:


> Additionally steps were taken to stop people who would book a trip to/from Atlanta and just throw away the ATL-WAS tickets and only use the WAS to the west coast tickets.


I suspect this sort of abuse was a bigger deal than people actually riding Seattle to Atlanta. Taking a full loophole trip is one thing , but this would let you shave a zone off an award. You could, at least a couple of months ago, still book SEA-ATL as a two-zone trip (I'm travelling it next month as my signature indicates.) However, if you throw away the WAS-ATL segment, it turns a 3 zone 50K bedroom award into a 2 zone 30K bedroom award.


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## GG-1

Aloha

If to many loopholes get removed The_Traveler may need medical or psychiatric attention. :unsure: :unsure:  

Also a plus for Amtrak, they are paid by the vendors for the points, and until points are redesigned their value is carried as a liability on the books.


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## the_traveler

GG-1 said:


> If to many loopholes get removed The_Traveler may need medical or psychiatric attention. :unsure: :unsure:


Many people say I already do! :lol:

I already am being treated for severe traveler-itis!  I can't do point runs this week from KIN, so I'm going to PDX on Wednesday to get some point runs in!


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## jmbgeg

GG-1 said:


> Aloha
> If to many loopholes get removed The_Traveler may need medical or psychiatric attention. :unsure: :unsure:
> 
> Also a plus for Amtrak, they are paid by the vendors for the points, and until points are redesigned their value is carried as a liability on the books.


Too funny.


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## saxman

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> MisterToad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip.
> 
> 
> 
> From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:
> 
> "Rewards are determined by the number of *zones *you travel across."
> 
> Oh well, maybe they'll be more generous with ways to earn points or increase the number of double, triple, etc. promotions.
Click to expand...


Thats always been posted as the zones you cross. Thats why I never knew there was such thing as a loophole until about two years ago. But that wording has never changed.


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## RRrich

Kwitchyerbelliakin said:


> MisterToad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip.
> 
> 
> 
> From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:
> 
> "Rewards are determined by the number of *zones *you travel across."
Click to expand...

"Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."

What does *'travel across*" mean? - perhaps to go from one side to the other? If you go from the Midwest to LAX have you traveled across the West Zone? I guess you have, but if you go from the Midwest to EMY have you traveled across the West zone, ALL the way across? I wonder.


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## saxman

RRrich said:


> Kwitchyerbelliakin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterToad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday evening I called to book the KCY to CBS loophole. The AGR agent informed me that it would be a 2 zone trip. I replied that since Kansas City and Columbus are in the same zone, shouldn't it be a 1 zone trip? She said that it used to be a 1 zone trip, but due to a change in policy, it's now considered a 2 zone trip.
> 
> 
> 
> From the AGR website, under the "Redeem" tab:
> 
> "Rewards are determined by the number of *zones *you travel across."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."
> 
> What does *'travel across*" mean? - perhaps to go from one side to the other? If you go from the Midwest to LAX have you traveled across the West Zone? I guess you have, but if you go from the Midwest to EMY have you traveled across the West zone, ALL the way across? I wonder.
Click to expand...

I usually thought it as crossing a zone border. If you don't cross a border, its one zone. So KCY to CBS you cross a zone border twice. Same with SDL-west coast.


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## RRrich

saxman said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across."
> 
> What does *'travel across*" mean? - perhaps to go from one side to the other? If you go from the Midwest to LAX have you traveled across the West Zone? I guess you have, but if you go from the Midwest to EMY have you traveled across the West zone, ALL the way across? I wonder.
> 
> 
> 
> I usually thought it as crossing a zone border. If you don't cross a border, its one zone. So KCY to CBS you cross a zone border twice. Same with SDL-west coast.
Click to expand...

*saxman* seems to be saying the number of zones is equal to the number of zones you travel *in* - a very resonable definition - but AGR says "Rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel *across*." Two different things: one reasonable and easy to understand, one not; one official, one not.

Too bad the reasonable and easy (saxman's) is not official!


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## TVRM610

If someone wants a 2-zone trip could they not still book ATL-SEA and be routed the following way:

ATL-NOL

NOL-CHI

CHI-SEA

It's the same amount of train riding, but you still only travel through 2 zones. Sure you have a hotel night.. but that would still work correct?


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## RRrich

Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.

Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.

No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.

Should we drive?


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## Ispolkom

TVRM610 said:


> If someone wants a 2-zone trip could they not still book ATL-SEA and be routed the following way:
> ATL-NOL
> 
> NOL-CHI
> 
> CHI-SEA
> 
> It's the same amount of train riding, but you still only travel through 2 zones. Sure you have a hotel night.. but that would still work correct?


AGR generally won't book itineraries that don't appear in amtrak.com. And amtrak.com generally doesn't display itineraries that require overnights. Some people have had different experiences, but I've had much more success booking one-zone AGR awards that cross into other zones than I have booking trips that require overnight stays.


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## the_traveler

RRrich said:


> Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.
> Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.
> 
> No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.
> 
> Should we drive?


The only way to do that without going to CHI is to go


Go by train STL-SAS

Overnight in SAS

Go by train SAS-NOL

Overnight in NOL

Go by train NOL-ATL


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## RRrich

the_traveler said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.
> Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.
> 
> No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.
> 
> Should we drive?
> 
> 
> 
> The only way to do that without going to CHI is to go
> 
> 
> Go by train STL-SAS
> 
> Overnight in SAS
> 
> Go by train SAS-NOL
> 
> Overnight in NOL
> 
> Go by train NOL-ATL
Click to expand...

Wifey is not the train rider that we are - If I suggest the above route she'll probaboy have a cow - and things were bad enough when Mary had a lamb! :lol:


----------



## MrFSS

RRrich said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wifey and I I would like to go from STL (where we live) to ATL to see our friends Mary & Bob.
> Wifey does NOT want to go via CHI - too far North or WAS - too far East.
> 
> No reason to go into the EAST ZONE at all.
> 
> Should we drive?
> 
> 
> 
> The only way to do that without going to CHI is to go
> 
> 
> Go by train STL-SAS
> 
> Overnight in SAS
> 
> Go by train SAS-NOL
> 
> Overnight in NOL
> 
> Go by train NOL-ATL
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wifey is not the train rider that we are - If I suggest the above route she'll probaboy have a cow - and things were bad enough when Mary had a lamb! :lol:
Click to expand...

Maybe its time for a new wifey!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## the_traveler

RRrich said:


> If I suggest the above route she'll probaboy have a cow


If she does, look at all the fresh beef and fresh milk you would get!

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## MisterToad

I just got off the phone with AGR again. I asked how many points it would take to get from KCY to CBS in a bedroom, and the AGR rep told me they're both in the central zone, so it would take 20,000 points. Finally a good answer to that question! My excitement quickly wore off, however. As he was making the reservation, he was surprised to see the routing through the west coast. He said he could try to book the trip through Chicago, but I told him I want to go through the west coast. He said he could book the trip, but the system would ask for more points since it goes through 2 zones. I went ahead and reserved the trip for 30,000 points since it doesn't look very likely that I'll ever be able to get it for 20,000.


----------



## Guest

I wonder if EVERYONE keeps their mouth shut (it would never happen) about this stuff for something like 9 months then it will go away. I don't know how AGR works, but it doesn't sound like this is built into their computer system and it is on the agent to enforce it. I know some places I have worked the big wigs make policy changes and they are enforced hardcore at first, but as time passes eventually things are back to business as usual.


----------



## GoldenSpike

MisterToad said:


> I just got off the phone with AGR again. I asked how many points it would take to get from KCY to CBS in a bedroom, and the AGR rep told me they're both in the central zone, so it would take 20,000 points. Finally a good answer to that question! My excitement quickly wore off, however. As he was making the reservation, he was surprised to see the routing through the west coast. He said he could try to book the trip through Chicago, but I told him I want to go through the west coast. He said he could book the trip, but the system would ask for more points since it goes through 2 zones. I went ahead and reserved the trip for 30,000 points since it doesn't look very likely that I'll ever be able to get it for 20,000.


Luckily, about a month ago I got mine in for the same route in late August. Since I'm thinking about tweaking the dates, it is

going to be interesting to see if they will continue to honor the 20,000.


----------



## saxman

MisterToad said:


> I just got off the phone with AGR again. I asked how many points it would take to get from KCY to CBS in a bedroom, and the AGR rep told me they're both in the central zone, so it would take 20,000 points. Finally a good answer to that question! My excitement quickly wore off, however. As he was making the reservation, he was surprised to see the routing through the west coast. He said he could try to book the trip through Chicago, but I told him I want to go through the west coast. He said he could book the trip, but the system would ask for more points since it goes through 2 zones. I went ahead and reserved the trip for 30,000 points since it doesn't look very likely that I'll ever be able to get it for 20,000.


I wonder if they upgraded the computer system. Before when you made an AGR reservation, they would book the trip, then it sounded like they would manually deduct points from your account. Hence the reason why some agents tried to deduct different amount of points. If he said the computer wouldn't let him book it with only 20,000, it makes me wonder if the system is now telling them how many zones it it.

Even so, 5 nights for only 30,000 is still not a bad deal.


----------



## AlanB

Guest said:


> I wonder if EVERYONE keeps their mouth shut (it would never happen) about this stuff for something like 9 months then it will go away. I don't know how AGR works, but it doesn't sound like this is built into their computer system and it is on the agent to enforce it. I know some places I have worked the big wigs make policy changes and they are enforced hardcore at first, but as time passes eventually things are back to business as usual.


People talking about loopholes is not why loopholes went away. Therefore, not talking about loopholes won't help them come back.


----------



## Rumpled

AlanB said:


> People talking about loopholes is not why loopholes went away. Therefore, not talking about loopholes won't help them come back.


First rule of fightclub?


----------



## TVRM610

Ispolkom said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants a 2-zone trip could they not still book ATL-SEA and be routed the following way:
> ATL-NOL
> 
> NOL-CHI
> 
> CHI-SEA
> 
> It's the same amount of train riding, but you still only travel through 2 zones. Sure you have a hotel night.. but that would still work correct?
> 
> 
> 
> AGR generally won't book itineraries that don't appear in amtrak.com. And amtrak.com generally doesn't display itineraries that require overnights. Some people have had different experiences, but I've had much more success booking one-zone AGR awards that cross into other zones than I have booking trips that require overnight stays.
Click to expand...

Well if I want to get from ATL to SEA... certainly AGR should be able to route me on trains that do not require I travel into a third zone correct? Since trains are available within the 2 zones (but with an overnight in NOL), it would stand to reason that they should be able to accomodate that request, OR route me through WAS with only 2 zones charged. Of course... this may not be the case in actual practice. Ha.


----------



## Ispolkom

TVRM610 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants a 2-zone trip could they not still book ATL-SEA and be routed the following way:
> ATL-NOL
> 
> NOL-CHI
> 
> CHI-SEA
> 
> It's the same amount of train riding, but you still only travel through 2 zones. Sure you have a hotel night.. but that would still work correct?
> 
> 
> 
> AGR generally won't book itineraries that don't appear in amtrak.com. And amtrak.com generally doesn't display itineraries that require overnights. Some people have had different experiences, but I've had much more success booking one-zone AGR awards that cross into other zones than I have booking trips that require overnight stays.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well if I want to get from ATL to SEA... certainly AGR should be able to route me on trains that do not require I travel into a third zone correct? Since trains are available within the 2 zones (but with an overnight in NOL), it would stand to reason that they should be able to accomodate that request, OR route me through WAS with only 2 zones charged. Of course... this may not be the case in actual practice. Ha.
Click to expand...

Which makes me wonder if these new rules are for particular routes that are especially circular. Or maybe not. MisterToad writes that his agent "offered to try to book me through Chicago" so maybe it will be easier to book AGR trips with overnight stays. It will take more people booking long-distance trips through AGR to find out.

If Kansas City - Columbus is two zones, how about Denver - St. Paul, or Albuquerque-Winona? Alas, with three trips (all of which are one-zone awards that go through another zone) booked for this year, I'm plum out of vacation. And since next year Mrs. Ispolkom insists we go to Europe to ride trains, it will be a while before I have a chance to book another circuitous award trip.

In any case, I think that it's a fool's errand to try to imagine that AGR's long distance rules are perfectly rational. They're a simple add-on to AGR's bread and butter, the NEC. AGR adjusts them occasionally as the few of us who use these awards irritate AGR. For whatever reason the Kansas City - Columbus trip irritated AGR, so it's no longer allowed as a one-zone trip.

I'm curious as to what proportion of sleeping car passengers beginning or ending their trips at certain stations are AGR awards. You know, places like Columbus, Wisc., or Slidell, La.


----------



## Edgefan

Rumpled said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> People talking about loopholes is not why loopholes went away. Therefore, not talking about loopholes won't help them come back.
> 
> 
> 
> First rule of fightclub?
Click to expand...


Too funny :lol: I'm die'n here 

Looks like extended trips will just take me longer to earn on midwest living. Really too bad. Well I'm off to New Orleans in a couple weeks. And I certainly would not have made NOL my first choice for an overnight stay without the AGR incentive, so that being said, it's a lose/lose situation for certain city destinations as well as a lot of us in this forum. We, (wife and I) certainly did our fair share of paid legs both before and after the AGR award of this trip.


----------



## Guest*The Metropolitan

I may be at the risk of infuriating all around here with this, but I for one won't shed a tear to see the loopholes go. Perhaps I'm the only one who looked at some of the loophole itineraries posted and thought "Wow, Amtrak is losing some serious revenue here!"

I could never fully wrap my mind around the concept that folks who love riding Amtrak and who bemoan how starved Amtrak is for revenue would deliberately craft itineraries that may have cost Amtrak thousands of dollars in revenue while only generating slight sales in order to bring the itinerary crafter to the boundary limits from where they really were looking to travel to and from.

I do understand that the rewards are yours to use anyway you want in compliance with the rules, and I do feel the new rules are bit "smarter" in their application. They may some shortsightedness in handling overnight stopovers, but I'd hope that they can work something "logical" out, ideally helping those redeeming to find the best hotel rates possible within their budget.

There are still some potentially good trips available that actually comply with the new rules such as Denver to Wolf Point (3 nights for a 1 zone) and possibly San Diego to Memphis via the TE/CNO? (4 nights for a 2 zone).

These same itineraries also spotlight some of the fallacies with the zone system for sleeper rewards. For example, a very logical 2 night Denver-Seattle or Albuquerque-Seattle reward is only a single zone redemption while an equally logical 1 night Chicago-Washington reward is a 2 zone redemption.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Under the "new" rule, Denver to Wolf Point would be 2-zones.

Where does AGR draw the line? It's not the fault that the citizens of Denver don't have a train that doesn't cross zone borders.


----------



## The Metropolitan

I *think* you might be misinterpreting the rule, but honestly can't know one way or the other.

You seem to suggest that going from Denver, Albuquerque, or Atlanta to ANYWHERE one stop away requires a minimum of a 2 zone redemption, since these cities are on the zone breaker.

The citizens of Cleveland, Indianapolis, Birmingham, and even Alliance have had similar problems regarding where they fall on the existing zone map for years, due to the tendency to only have truly worthwhile redemptions in one direction from their city, unless purchasing a ticket to take them to the zone breaker to begin their redemption.


----------



## rogerVarland

The Metropolitan said:


> I *think* you might be misinterpreting the rule, but honestly can't know one way or the other.
> You seem to suggest that going from Denver, Albuquerque, or Atlanta to ANYWHERE one stop away requires a minimum of a 2 zone redemption, since these cities are on the zone breaker.
> 
> The citizens of Cleveland, Indianapolis, Birmingham, and even Alliance have had similar problems regarding where they fall on the existing zone map for years, due to the tendency to only have truly worthwhile redemptions in one direction from their city, unless purchasing a ticket to take them to the zone breaker to begin their redemption.



From my booking made today, it appears border cities are in the zone. I booked one zone TOL - ORL. I asked about DET - ORL which was also quoted at one zone via Thruway bus, but opted for TOL. (We'll probably buy coach from WTI since it's a shorter drive.) The short of it is, I would think DEN - Wolf Point would still be one zone.


----------



## The Metropolitan

Thanks for the feedback - that sounds perfectly logical, and seems to validate Denver to Wolf Point as still being a single zone redemption. The very presence of the Albuquerque-Trinidad overlap zone on the SWC also seemed to validate zone border stations as usable in either/or zone to the redeemer's benefit.

Being in Baltimore, my "valuable" sleeper redemption options are somewhat limited from here. One night may require one zone for some destinations, and a 2 zone redemption for others. 2 nights can't be done without a 2 zoner, though 3 for 2 is possible using the TE. Still, I don't complain since I get the "bone" of being towards the end of the Northeast Zone and can get pretty good value from the 3K point redemptions here.

And all in all, I still consider AGR a great value for the lack of capacity controls and the ability to cancel a trip and get your points fully refunded on short notice, generally not an option for most Frequent Flyer members on basic status. I've had to do this twice on a TPA-BAL sleeper trip that didn't work out right, and even then I felt a sense of guilt that I may have "blocked" Amtrak from selling that last bedroom to someone with $$$ that wanted it.


----------



## sechs

AlanB said:


> People talking about loopholes is not why loopholes went away.


People calling AGR about loopholes, on the other hand....


----------



## Bigval109

sechs said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> People talking about loopholes is not why loopholes went away.
> 
> 
> 
> People calling AGR about loopholes, on the other hand....
Click to expand...

When I call I just ask for what I want. I don't mention the word loophole. I generally take the train" coach" to where the reward begins and I'm on my way. Perhaps if fewer tickets on the Atlanta trip was to alt come up missing then this may fade away. Since I have never ridden the crescent I'm going all the way and taking the train back to RVR as part of my vacation. I could get off closer to home but a longer ride and meals and maybe a chance to see my new nephew  is worth the extra 100 bucks.


----------



## AlanB

Bigval109 said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> People talking about loopholes is not why loopholes went away.
> 
> 
> 
> People calling AGR about loopholes, on the other hand....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I call I just ask for what I want. I don't mention the word loophole. I generally take the train" coach" to where the reward begins and I'm on my way. Perhaps if fewer tickets on the Atlanta trip was to alt come up missing then this may fade away. Since I have never ridden the crescent I'm going all the way and taking the train back to RVR as part of my vacation. I could get off closer to home but a longer ride and meals and maybe a chance to see my new nephew  is worth the extra 100 bucks.
Click to expand...

AGR put into place procedures a long time ago, maybe a year or two now, to deal with people who book to/from Atlanta and never travel that segment.

Please understand these simple facts; talking about a loophole on a forum, metioning the word loophole to an agent, throwing away tickets to/from Atlanta, and AGR insider all had nothing to do with this change of policy.


----------



## PRR 60

AlanB said:


> ...Please understand these simple facts; talking about a loophole on a forum, metioning the word loophole to an agent, throwing away tickets to/from Atlanta, and AGR insider all had nothing to do with this change of policy.


Doesn't that say a lot about Amtrak and how much they really don't care about the bottom line? They knew people were taking four night trips and for the price of one and costing them revenue, and that didn't bother them. What finally resulting in the change was Amtrak getting irritated by a customer who kept after them because AGR completely fouled up a reservation. Amtrak was unable or unwilling to fix it, and that reservation just happened to be a "loophole" trip. So, they pull the plug on the loopholes out of spite, not because it was costing them money.

If Amtrak and AGR are not watching here and elsewhere for schemes that steal revenue, they should be. I can assure you that airlines watch FT all the time and react very quickly if some nonsense is going on. I guess Amtrak figures that taxpayers will make up whatever losses they incur, so who cares.

Have you noticed that *AGR Insider* has been MIA at FT for nearly two weeks? I hope it wasn't something I said.


----------



## Ispolkom

Actually, I still haven't seen any evidence that any AGR award other than the one Mister Toad tried to book has changed. I'd be willing to bet that this particular trip is now a two-zone award, but that others that aren't so baroque are still one-zone awards.

I'll agree that AGR isn't very well run, but I don't think that the fancy loophole trips are a very good example. After all, you aren't "stealing revenue" if you book a roomette or bedroom that wouldn't otherwise be sold. The fixed costs of the train are still there, and the marginal cost of the AGR traveler would be what? The cost of the ingredients of his or her meals?

AGR's real problem from Amtrak's perspective is its lack of capacity controls. It's not that I'm booking a bedroom on the Empire Builder for points, it's that I'm booking a top-dollar bedroom on the Portland sleeper in August for points. Sure they try to deal with this with black-out dates (and rules about which Acelas you can book), but even these black-out dates are NEC-oriented. Is Easter, for instance, a busy time on most long-distance trains?

Cynical though I am, I don't agree that "Amtrak figures that taxpayers will make up whatever losses they incur, so who cares." Instead I think that the programming fix in a legacy program like Arrow is probably more expensive than the costs of people abusing the system, if that's what you want to call it. I call it following the rules.


----------



## The Metropolitan

I guess they had their reasons, but I never fully understood why the zone breaker from the central to Eastern Zone wasn't set at Chicago instead of Toledo. I'm sure some folks in Toledo can use this to advantage, but it would seem that more folks going from East to Midwest would find it easier to use.


----------



## RRrich

PRR 60 said:


> *What finally resulting in the change* was Amtrak getting irritated by a customer who kept after them because AGR completely fouled up a reservation. Amtrak was unable or unwilling to fix it, and that reservation just happened to be a "loophole" trip. So, they pull the plug on the loopholes out of spite, not because it was costing them money.


How sure are you that the incident you mention was the cause of the change?

Do you have "inside info" or are you just speculating??

Problem with information on the internet is that it is hard to know how good the information is.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Oh come on now... I was told from two sources on the inside that the loophole was closing and that they were planning this months in advance. They didn't close the loophole out of spite, they wouldn't fix my reservation because it was a loophole.

The way they saw it they needed to close the loophole and tell me tough luck ex post facto. Others iin the company said that wasn't how Amtrak conducts business and said that they should fix my reservation first and then worry about closing the loophole once and for all.

In either event it was clear that AGR knew what the trip was, they had known about it, and they had plans in the making to end it by the summer travel season. Guess what happened? The loophole closed before then summer travel season.

I mean really, people honestly believe that they would change policy outnof spite? Sorry. I may, keyword may, have been the last AU member to book that specific routing, and yeah that feels bad, but eventually with all things golden... Somebody has to have the unfortunate coincidence of being the last one to touch.


----------



## RRrich

Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)


----------



## Bob Dylan

RRrich said:


> Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)


I'm pretty sure that the_traveler has this booked in Oct. after the gathering, also possibly a couple of other members will be on the same trains! I'm glad I did it last fall, it;s a fantastic trip! The LH I'm looking @ is POS-EMY, still a 1 zone trip, will NOT ask the agent for a LH trip or call bugging AGR about the reservation, low key is th e way to go, and if you dont like what the agent tells you, politely end the call and call back for another agent! If in doubt, ask for a Supervisor, lots of those Canadians dont know the routes and US Geography like the foamers here! :lol:


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

RRrich said:


> Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)


Last one to book, but not take. My source assured me that anyone who booked before the change, like the traveller, will be grandfathered in... In other words they aren't going to go back and change existing rezzies.


----------



## JayPea

I just booked a Walnut Ridge-Seattle AGR trip a little while ago and when I requested the routing by way of the Texas Eagle to Los Angeles and the Coast Starlight from Los Angeles to Seattle, Jake, the very nice and personable (and knowledgeable) AGR agent said he'd have to check first as they use a "default" routing and it might cost more points to go another way. This was a straight 2-zone award that didn't involve crossing into a third zone, so I didn't see how I could get charged more points. It turned out fine as this is a legitimate routing, but it did make me wonder now about their policy. I'm taking the Eagle coach from Bloomington, IL to Walnut Ridge, and the only other routing I saw involved the Eagle from Walnut Ridge back to Springfield, a bus to Galesburg, the Zephyr to Sacramento and the Starlight to Seattle. That of course made no sense whatsoever for my trip. Thank goodness Jake decided the Walnut Ridge-Los Angeles-Seattle option was legitimate.


----------



## Bigval109

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)
> 
> 
> 
> Last one to book, but not take. My source assured me that anyone who booked before the change, like the traveller, will be grandfathered in... In other words they aren't going to go back and change existing rezzies.
Click to expand...

That good to know because I booked the lax to alt trip and I'm going for the ride.  I'm going all the way down to alt and then use my purchased ticket from alt to rvr to end my vacation. Oh triple points. For me it will be 2 extra days vacation.  Perhaps we should leave the loophole topic alone for a while and let things cool down. Perhaps when the dust settles it may not be as bad as we thought. :huh:


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

The thing is they know ALL of the loopholes. They do, not talking about them changes nothing. The fact is AGR has to answer to its consciousness... after all, there are people who need to go from Omaha to Wolf Point, Atlanta to Los Angeles, and its not their fault there's no direct link or that they cross zone borders that, at times, seem arbitrarily placed.

I expect to see more stringent guidelines on ALL of these trips in the coming months-- AGR (more importantly, Amtrak) has to decide where to draw (or re-draw) the line.


----------



## GoldenSpike

RRrich said:


> Is ALC_Rail_Writer the last to do the KWD(KCY)-CBS LH? Did anyone make a LH reservation and not yet pickup tickets? What will AGR/Amtrak do in that situation? (I expect them to honor the rezzie)


It appears they will honor it. I made my KCY-CBS resv a month ago for August and have not picked my tickets up.

After this thread started I checked my account. So far it is a 20k trip.


----------



## The Metropolitan

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> The fact is AGR has to answer to its consciousness... after all, there are people who need to go from Omaha to Wolf Point, Atlanta to Los Angeles, and its not their fault there's no direct link or that they cross zone borders that, at times, seem arbitrarily placed.


A little (ok, perhaps very) overinflated in my opinion. The fine folks of Wolf Point (pop. 2663) have largely had the AGR world as their oyster for the past several years in that they could go to some 300 or so of Amtrak's 500 destinations for only a single zone redemption, and even a number more if using the more sketchy tactics of throwaway reward tickets. The same has been true for the fine folks of Denver, Albuquerque, Lamy, Trinidad, Atlanta, and Toledo. These same fine folks in these areas, by reason of their geographic placement also had the advantage of NEVER having to do any more than a 2 zone redemption to reach anywhere in the Amtrak service area.

So what's the solution to AGR inequities?

Good question that raises many others. Should sleeper or coach redemptions be pro-rated based on distance, cost, or travel time? That might get pretty complicated to the average user who won't know if their 24232 points are good for that Washington-Minneapolis redemption on the Cardinal versus the Capitol. Even segementing them into 24 hour blocks might be annoying to that Tampa-New York Penn patron whose redemption on the Star is only good up to Baltimore, at which point they get dumped out with the room unsellable for the final segment anyway. Should the rider going from St. Louis to Los Angeles be rewarded for a potentially more inconvenient trip up to Chicago to get the SWC instead of the more leisurely TE since this saves a day?


----------



## transit54

Man, I cashed in all my AGR points a while back for SDL-EMY via WAS & CHI. I'm counting the days till I leave late next month. Glad I did it when I did. While I'm sorry to see loopholes go, most of my future redemptions will be for non-loophole trips. I just don't always have the time to ride the train in loops around the country, as much fun as it may be.

There's got to be a better system for redemptions than zones. The inequities of it were always (in my mind) balanced by the potential of loophole trips. If we're discussing the potential revenue loss to Amtrak, there should be controls based on the peak/off peak nature of many of Amtrak's routes. I should be able to get more value for my points during off peak times, and it should probably be more accurately pegged to days on the train or distance traveled.

With these changes, I'd really like to see an overhaul of redemptions. Something that's equitable for both us and Amtrak.


----------



## Ispolkom

transit54 said:


> With these changes, I'd really like to see an overhaul of redemptions. Something that's equitable for both us and Amtrak.


Such a beast doesn't exist. What's equitable for you certainly isn't for me.

In any case, I have yet to see any evidence that anything has changed, except perhaps for the Kansas City - Columbus trip.

On the same day that Mister Toad had his problems booking his Kansas City - Columbus trip, April 1, I booked a Minot-Chicago-Washington-Slidell trip. Not quite as circular a trip as Mr. Toad's but one that:

a) went into a second zone,

b) had a more direct variant (Minot-Chicago-New Orleans), and

c) was booked as a one-zone award for 20k points (with the standard 2k Chase rebate).

oh, and

d) had a terminus in a notorious AGR award city.

If there is some big new set of rules, why did I not have any problems?

Is there any evidence, not extrapolation, not assumption, not things heard from "sources" but actual data from actual attempts to book AGR award trips that anything has changed, except on that one particularly long, particularly circuitous route?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?


----------



## Bob Dylan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?


Unfortunately yes! Its worse than Jefferson Lines canceling out for the KCY-OKC run so I missed the Heartland Flyer and had to ride a dog all the way from KCY to Austin! :angry: But there's still a few good deals for one zone awards and this one is not bad as a two zone as others have said!  Whats the latest on the extension of the Flyer to Kansas? Jim


----------



## J-1 3235

OlympianHiawatha said:


> So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?


I just ended a call to AGR; I was trying to book the KCY to CBS trip next February. I was told it is now a THREE zone trip. I asked the agent to double check, he assured me it was a three zone now. I questioned when did this change; that I had recently read (on our forum, of course) that this reward had become a two zone. He was unable to give me any specifics, just that it's now three zones.

I realize the usual advice applies; call back and get a different answer 

I'm sure I'll be in a better mood tomorrow, maybe I'll try again!

Mike


----------



## The Metropolitan

I guess that makes some sense as you travel twice (separately) in the central zone and once in the western zone.

Seems like Trinidad to Wolf Point will probably be the most potentially lucrative redemption left for the value/time hawks.


----------



## Rail Freak

J-1 3235 said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> So in quick summary would the Kansas City-Columbus "loophole" now be a 2 Zone Reward?
> 
> 
> 
> I just ended a call to AGR; I was trying to book the KCY to CBS trip next February. I was told it is now a THREE zone trip. I asked the agent to double check, he assured me it was a three zone now. I questioned when did this change; that I had recently read (on our forum, of course) that this reward had become a two zone. He was unable to give me any specifics, just that it's now three zones.
> 
> I realize the usual advice applies; call back and get a different answer
> 
> I'm sure I'll be in a better mood tomorrow, maybe I'll try again!
> 
> Mike
> 
> The agent may have been thinking " Cross a zone line, add another zone charge"!
> 
> EX. - KCY-DEN = 1 zone
> 
> DEN - WPT = 1 zone
> 
> WPT - CBS = 1 zone
Click to expand...

????

RF


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## rtabern

Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.


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## RRrich

rtabern said:


> Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.


Its a WONDERFUL trip - ENJOY


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## ceblack

Wow... so would a Slidell to Seattle trip now be FOUR zones? How much do they charge for that?

The AGR site says that rewards are determined by the number of zones you travel across. a KCY-CBS trip travels across two zones (Western Region, Central Region). I don't think they should be "double-counting" a zone. Otherwise a trip from Cleveland, Ohio to Port Huron, Michigan becomes a three zone trip.

I don't mind AGR eliminating "loopholes" by no longer just looking at start and end points of a trip to determine number of zones, but I think they are going a step too far in counting a zone more than once just because travel across it is non-continuous. It seems to me they've gone from an interpretation that is too favorable for AGR members ("loopholes") to one that is too injurious to AGR members ("double-counting"). Of course, the terms and conditions state that any interpretation is theirs to make... and that they can change the terms and conditions at any time... so perhaps we just have to live with what they decide.

Still, I'd be tempted to call AGR back and ask why you were getting charged twice for travelling in the Central Region.

~~Coherent, semi-reasonable argument ends here, pointless "fight the power" rant continues below~~

Here's an experiment I'll leave to someone with more skill in/appetite for confrontation (and more available travel time): Call AGR and ask to book a deluxe bedroom award trip from Seattle to Miami. When they say they are going to charge you 50,000 points for the trip, beg to differ and say it should be a one-zone award for 20,000 points. If they object, tell them you looked at the rewards map and the only ZONE you travel through is the Northeast Zone. The others are all REGIONs. Since awards are based on the number of *zones* you travel across (emphasis theirs!), this should be a one-zone award. Yeah, you probably wouldn't get anywhere what with the whole "they make the rules, they interpret the rules, and they can change the rules whenever they want" thing, but maybe if you protest loud and long enough and demand to talk to enough supervisors and threaten legal action for false advertising... maybe they'd figure it's easier to just give you the one-zone award and then go back to correct the zone map (or the reward terminology to reflect regions).


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## Guest

rtabern said:


> Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.


3 zones, proof that AGR is still tripping over itself with this thing.

Now if EVERYONE stopped calling for like six months they might forget that they have something to trip over. There is always one that reminds them that they have something to trip over.


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## AlanB

Guest said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just wanted to confirm that the KCY-CBS loophole is DEAD... I tried to book the trip for February/March 2011. At first the AGR folks told me it was 30,000 points for a bedroom (2 zones)... then they called me back about 5 minutes later and told me it was 50,000 points for a bedroom (3 zones). They deducated 50,000 points right away. I decided to keep the reservation despite the lack of a loophole... I guess still not a bad deal... 50,000 points for 6 days and 5 nights in the deluxe bedroom.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 zones, proof that AGR is still tripping over itself with this thing.
> 
> Now if EVERYONE stopped calling for like six months they might forget that they have something to trip over. There is always one that reminds them that they have something to trip over.
Click to expand...

Calling AGR or not will not change anything. This change is permanent and it had nothing to do with people calling up and asking for awards.


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## Ispolkom

AlanB said:


> Calling AGR or not will not change anything. This change is permanent and it had nothing to do with people calling up and asking for awards.


I'm sure you're correct. It's still a bit of a shame that we don't know quite what the change is, when it went into effect, and whether it applies to all circuitous routings that cross zone boundaries.

But that's only fair. It wasn't as though the original policy that allowed such routings was ever spelled out to AGR members, if such a policy ever officially existed. After all, in January 2009 several AGR agents insisted that Atlanta-Washington-Chicago-Minot was a two-zone trip, while in April 2010, this very month, another clerk booked me Minot-Chicago-Washington-Slidell as a one-zone trip without any prompting on my part. If you want hard and fast rules, AGR surely isn't for you.

Me, I live in hope. When I'm once again in the market for long-distance AGR awards (sometime next year, I imagine) I expect that the picture will be rosier than it seems to some today, at least for those of us booking trips in flyover country. If not, it's no secret that all frequent-traveler programs reserve the right to change terms and conditions at any time, for any reason. AGR's secret charm is that it does this without actually bothering to let its customers know that anything has changed.

It's an odd way to run a railroad, but I find it entertaining.


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## ceblack

Pointless Question of the Day:

How many AGR zones is a trip on the Southwest Chief from Albuquerque, NM to Trinidad, CO?

a. One.

b. Two.

c. None... you're riding the zone boundary the whole way!!

d. It depends on how many times you switch between sides of the train. ("I'm sorry, I can't sit on that side of the dining car or it will cost me another 10,000 AGR points.")


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## saxman

ceblack said:


> Pointless Question of the Day:
> How many AGR zones is a trip on the Southwest Chief from Albuquerque, NM to Trinidad, CO?
> 
> a. One.
> 
> b. Two.
> 
> c. None... you're riding the zone boundary the whole way!!
> 
> d. It depends on how many times you switch between sides of the train. ("I'm sorry, I can't sit on that side of the dining car or it will cost me another 10,000 AGR points.")


e. All the above. It just depends which AGR agent you get on the phone!


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## Ryan

f. It depends on which track the dispatcher routes you on (I'm assuming that parts of the route are double tracked).


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## RRrich

g. It doesn't really matter - if you don't like what the agent says hang up and call again until you get an answer you like


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## manderson

AlanB said:


> Calling AGR or not will not change anything. This change is permanent and it had nothing to do with people calling up and asking for awards.


Alan, you're a patient man.

(loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole, loophole)


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