# The Ocean........A possible re-route to the NTR??



## NS VIA Fan (Mar 19, 2014)

VIA’s Ocean is facing a similar dilemma as the Southwest Chief is over Raton Pass….. here it’s total abandonment of a key 40 mile section of the Oceans’ current route. But there was a glimmer of hope recently when Federal Transport Minister Lisa Raitt appeared before a House of Commons Transport Committee and stated that VIA’s service through New Brunswick would NOT cease “because they have another route” available.

This is the NTR (National Transcontinental Railway) from St. Andre, QC (near Riviere-du-Loup) to just west of Moncton, NB. Its 75 miles shorter than the Ocean’s current route, well maintained and fast, CTC signaled and CN has previously indicated a rerouted Ocean could be accommodated. 

The larger population centres are along the current route through Campbellton but a rerouted Ocean could serve Fredericton (metro pop. 100,000) the capital of New Brunswick, from a new stop at McGivney. And there are also the larger towns of Grand Falls, St. Leonard and Edmundston.

The NTR was never a big passenger player but did have service through the years with a VIA RDC lasting until Jan 1990. It was also the Oceans route for a brief period in the late 1960s and VIA has also used the NTR for detours. I was fortunate to have one of these “rare mileage runs” on the Ocean several years ago:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1318&p=8095&hilit=Edmundston#p8095

also a train on this route has the potential to attract US passengers too. A new station in St. Leonard would be less than a mile from the old Bangor and Aroostook Station in VanBuren, Maine that hasn’t seen a passenger train since the Potatoland Special (an overnight sleeper to Boston) in 1960.

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track3/potatoland195407.html

Madawaska, Maine is just over the bridge from Edmundston, NB. and at Estcourt you can't get much closer to the US/Canada Border: the bottom of the high railway fill and edge of the CN right-of-way at the south end of the lake IS the border. Map here:

https://www.google.ca/maps/preview/@47.4593584,-69.2247897,517m/data=!3m1!1e3

With the shorter distance and faster running times on the NTR…….4 hours could probably be trimmed from the Oceans current schedule…..Or:

It’s now within range of becoming a daytime run. At least between Montreal and Moncton with coordinated bus connections beyond to Halifax, Saint John and Charlottetown. 

So hold onto you Haywood-Wakefield*** Seat…….It’s going to be an interesting ride until sometime this summer when the abandonment process plays-out.

***famous railway seat manufacturer


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2014)

I worry much more about this than the reroute of the SWC.

(1) CN has been known for revoking previous offers and treating VIA and AMT poorly on trackwork deals, so there's no guarantee that they'll accomodate the reroute. (Though maybe with Hunter Harrison gone the bad attitude at CN will stop.)

(2) There's much more population on the existing route than on this route. Where a SWC reroute would *add* population this would *lose* population. There's basically *nothing* on the NTR route from Moncton to Quebec City -- Grand Falls and Edmunston, I guess.

(3) The cross-border travel will be minimal due to the post-9/11 border crossing madness which has reduced all cross-border travel.

(4) The Gaspe (well, New Carlisle currently) service will have to be operated independently for much longer, increasing expenses on a route with little potential for increased ridership, which has a parallel road the whole way. How long until that gets cut?

(5) VIA has already reduced the Ocean to 3-a-week in an apparent bid to kill it. While the reroute might work as a daily train, as a three-a-week it would simply be even less popular. And after this very recent change, I simply don't see VIA having the sense to realize that the train needs to be daily train. (Though who knows, maybe now that Laliberte is out things will improve.)

Incidentally, it's only now, studying the routes, that I realize that VIA is taking fundamentally the wrong route for the trains from Montreal to Quebec City. The correct passenger route is the one on the north side of the river which passes through Trois Rivieres -- apparently now the Quebec Gatineau Railway and part of Genessee & Wyoming. I suppose this is another accident of history, since this used to be CP, which got rid of its passenger trains earlier than CN.

----

The more I look at the current situation, the more it seems to me like Laliberte, being Quebecois, deliberately slashed all the non-Quebec services to shreds while preserving even the most expensive services in Quebec. The next head of VIA will probably not be so Quebec-biased.

Jonquierre, Senneterre, and Gaspe/New Carlisle all have parallel roads which are just as good and just as close as the roads on the Algoma Central route... which was recently axed by Harper;s government on the grounds of the parallel roads being good enough. True, some intermediate points have only dirt roads or no roads at all... but the same is true on the to-be-axed Algoma Central route. The difference? The surviving routes are in Quebec, while the missing ones are in Ontario; the cuts in the 2012 round of cuts were everywhere except Quebec.

I don't think this piece of provincial bias is going to outlast Laliberte, and it's probably not going to help VIA get any federal funding either. I suspect we'll see the Jonquierre, Seneterre, and Gaspe/New Carlisle routes get the ax next, "mandatory" or not (there seems to be no actual legal mandate). Hopefully we won't see any more cuts to the "Corridor" or the Canadian before the next federal government takes office in 2016, and hopefully Harper will be out on his ear then. That seems like the best we can hope for.


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## CHamilton (Mar 19, 2014)

People are organizing to keep the train on the current route, but I don't know how successful they'll be. It seems like there are a myriad of tiny rail advocacy organizations in Canada, but they don't seem to work together very well.

*Save our Trains in Northern N.B. Facebook page*


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 19, 2014)

[SIZE=11pt]I guess my only solace in the above, is that the Federal Transport Minister (and member of Harper’s Cabinet) has now said that VIA’s service to the Maritimes would not[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] cease “because they have another route” available. For awhile it looked as if the Ocean would be discontinued when (and if) its current route is abandoned. [/SIZE]


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## railiner (Mar 19, 2014)

Too bad the border crossing formalities have gotten so bad, I think the best of all the Montreal-Maritimes routes was that of the late, Atlantic Limited,taking a shortcut across Northern Maine, and serving Saint John enroute....

If that route had survived, the chances of a revival of Boston-Maritimes service, though slim, could have also been possible....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 19, 2014)

Are the border crossings that bad? I went to Canada post-9/11 and it wasn't nearly bad enough to thwart a trip altogether.


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## railiner (Mar 20, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Are the boarder crossings that bad? I went to Canada post-9/11 and it wasn't nearly bad enough to thwart a trip altogether.


Unfortunately, yes....bad enough to do one crossing, but having to do it twice, with its resultant delays, I believe was one of the factors that 'killed' the Atlantic....

The same problem now with running a Buffalo-Detroit train. Or a Fort Francis-Winnipeg train. All of these ran for years crossing the International Boundary twice for a 'shortcut' route, with thru passenger's not even bothered during the crossings. Sadly, those simpler times are gone with the wind....


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 20, 2014)

railiner said:


> ..............Or a Fort Francis-Winnipeg train. All of these ran for years crossing the International Boundary twice for a 'shortcut' route............


[SIZE=11pt]Or crossed the border three times in 20 miles .......If you go way back to the ‘60s, a Canadian Pacific RDC run between Montreal and Boston would cross into the US for about 10 miles to serve a couple of Vermont towns.....back into Canada for 10 miles to a stop in Quebec then finally back into Vermont. Don’t know how US and Canadian Customs handled this one![/SIZE]


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 20, 2014)

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Are the border crossings that bad? I went to Canada post-9/11 and it wasn't nearly bad enough to thwart a trip altogether.
> ...


I hope it won't be too bad when I go to Canada this year. That really brought my attention. What exactly is so bad about crossing to Canada?


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## railiner (Mar 21, 2014)

It's not so much as being 'bad', as it is just a nuisance....just a lot more scrutiny, post 9-11....

I'm not sure how it's done on trains, lately. I am more familiar with buses....it used to be that they would allow bus passenger's to remain aboard while they examined the checked baggage...they would go thru the bus, and examine passport's, visa's, and some carryon bags, while interviewing passenger's. They would select a handful of passenger's to come inside for further examination, or to be present while checked bags were opened, etc. Now, everyone must get off and go inside the customs area.

It just simply takes far longer than it used to.....


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 21, 2014)

railiner said:


> It's not so much as being 'bad', as it is just a nuisance....just a lot more scrutiny, post 9-11....


Yes, how simple thing were before 9-11 !!

I grew up in a border community and you might be back and forth a couple of times a day. Most of the time no ID was even requested….neither a driver license or birth certificate.

The community on the US side had a McDonalds before we did and it was nothing for dad to throw us kids in the back seat and head over for a treat......then right back to Canada. And depending on who had the cheapest gas at the time, Americans or Canadians would cross, fill up the tank and head right back.

We had the hockey rink on our side and our minor hockey team was about a 50/50 split of US/Canadian kids. When we had practice at 7am on a Saturday morning they were here too except it was 6am to them……..the time zone went down the middle of the river.

In the Edmundston-Madawaska area I mention in the first post above.....you will still find many Americans who were actually born in Canada as the closest hospital was in Edmundston, NB.

http://ak.pinterest.com/pin/152418768612593332/

http://books.google.ca/books?id=SVO1kRXE-LcC&lpg=PA148&ots=LgjCFCEY_y&dq=madawaska%20maine%20born%20in%20canada&pg=PA148#v=onepage&q=madawaska%20maine%20born%20in%20canada&f=false

In the photo below.....thats Edmundston in the background with it's Pulp Mills. The pulp is pumped across the river to Madawaska and made into paper on the US side. Trans-Border commerce!

http://ak.pinterest.com/pin/152418768612863573/


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## OBS (Mar 21, 2014)

I didn't realize Laliberte was gone...Good news for sure.


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## railiner (Mar 22, 2014)

NS VIA Fan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > It's not so much as being 'bad', as it is just a nuisance....just a lot more scrutiny, post 9-11....
> ...


On my way from New York to Fort Kent, Me., back in the late sixties, aboard a Bangor and Aroostook Railroad (Highway Division) bus, that was jointly operated by Greyhound Lines south of Bangor, we crossed that brdge into and out of Edmundston. I don't recall much about that crossing, but know that we breezed in and out, to the SMT depot, without even being checked...I believe only international passengers were identified by the driver to be checked, but it's too far back to remember the details....

Just curious....do those Americans that were born in Edmundston hospital have a lifetime right to claim dual citizenship?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 24, 2014)

Wow, now that I hear the stories I see how things have changed. But at least crossing from the USA to Canada is a lot easier than going to the UK, Germany, or Japan. Hardest I've been through was going to China, very complicated to clear customs with all the visa and passport stuff. Look on the bright side, at least you don't need a visa to go to Canada.


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## siberianmo (Mar 25, 2014)

Hello,

A great topic with an excellent lead-in. Appreciate the effort.

With family in Bedford, NS - now a part of greater Halifax - my wife and I had traveled aboard the Ocean on round trips between Montreal and Halifax for decades. Oh yes, also the now-defunct Atlantic too. I could go on and on about North America's longest running named train - but will not. Suffice it to say that with the introduction and use of those Renaissance abominations (I call 'em Chunnel Chuggers) and the loss of those outstanding refurbished Budd corrugated stainless steel beauties with domes to the western routes, the Ocean as I knew her is gone, gone, gone and perhaps gone-zo.

We stopped our Atlantic Canada rail travel because of (1) the use of the Renaissance equipment - and - (2) near-extortionist air fares between St. Louis and Canada to make connections in Montreal. Far cheaper - but much less fun - to fly direct to Nova Scotia.

I hope there is salvation in store for the Ocean, but seriously doubt it. What is happening with VIA Rail is near-criminal the way I view it. Cuts here and eliminations there all have one thing in common - chase away the travelers who appreciate good service, well maintained equipment and fares at decent prices. Amtrak cannot be far behind.

Anyway, I suppose all we can do is become part of the solution as opposed to the problem.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 25, 2014)

What I don't know is if the Ocean is dying due to mismanagement or competition. Is it that passengers would just rather fly than ride the train or is it that passengers are angry at VIA Rail for poor service and unreliable equipment. Just look at reviews of Eastern Canada trains compared to Western Canada trains, most of the bad reviews come from the East.

People have really mixed reviews about the Ren cars. I think maybe they were built too similar to an airplane rather than a train. Maybe they're too complicated.


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## CHamilton (Mar 25, 2014)

From the Halifax Chronicle-Herald via National Dream Renewed on Facebook.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 25, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> From the Halifax Chronicle-Herald via National Dream Renewed on Facebook.


Thanks, Charlie! I needed a good laugh today. Hilarious, yet it is sadly true...


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## railiner (Mar 26, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Wow, now that I hear the stories I see how things have changed. But at least crossing from the USA to Canada is a lot easier than going to the UK, Germany, or Japan. Hardest I've been through was going to China, very complicated to clear customs with all the visa and passport stuff. Look on the bright side, at least you don't need a visa to go to Canada.


Now that would depend on where you are from....Americans, no visa required, but there often are other international traveler's on the train whose nationality does require a visa.

This often slows down the clearing of the train, (or bus), for all.....


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 26, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Crossing from the USA to Canada is a lot easier than going to the UK, Germany, or Japan. Hardest I've been through was going to China, very complicated to clear customs with all the visa and passport stuff. Look on the bright side, at least you don't need a visa to go to Canada.


Having visited Canada, England, Germany, and Japan myself it seems I've had a rather different experience than you. I found Canadian immigration more abrasive and tedious than than the others. No other country showed any interest or concern over where I was going or what I wanted to see. No other country took issue with the very idea that _anyone_ would travel internationally for the simple purpose of enjoying a journey by rail. I left Canada with fond memories of their beautiful scenery but a rather poor view of their radicalized government and hyper sensitive security staff. I have no idea what they thought I was going to do. Steal a job? Enlisted heading AWOL? Confused drug mule? Mail order husband? Who knows. If US citizens see the Canadian security apparatus as needlessly annoying and overbearing then that's saying something in my view. On the plus side Canada makes it quick and easy to get back home with pre-clearance of US flights.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 26, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> ..............I found Canadian immigration more abrasive and tedious than than the others. No other country showed any interest or concern over where I was going or what I wanted to see. No other country took issue with the very idea that _anyone_ would travel internationally for the simple purpose of enjoying a journey by rail.


As a Canadian, I have experienced the same from US border officials. Even from US officials at pre-clearance facilities in my own country.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 26, 2014)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > ..............I found Canadian immigration more abrasive and tedious than than the others. No other country showed any interest or concern over where I was going or what I wanted to see. No other country took issue with the very idea that _anyone_ would travel internationally for the simple purpose of enjoying a journey by rail.
> ...


Although I have no practical method for entering the US as a foreigner myself I do not doubt your experience. According to what I've read US customs and immigration has become extremely sensitive and aggressive toward visitors. Apparently we also charge more than most countries for the opportunity to be judged for entry or transit. That being said I am not aware of anyone who would honestly be surprised by this. Whereas I was genuinely surprised to see Canadian authorities acting like their paranoid neighbors to the South.


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## AlanB (Mar 26, 2014)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Whereas I was genuinely surprised to see Canadian authorities acting like their paranoid neighbors to the South.


It's more a matter IMHO of "tit for tat"; we did it, so Canada reciprocated. Every time we've changed the rules down here, Canada has done the same up there.

And having been thrown out of Canada once, I can attest that one of their big things is taking Canadian jobs. I wasn't doing that; but it didn't matter to them.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 26, 2014)

Alan thrown out of his wife's country?   ...Did her Dad have some hand in that?  :lol: :giggle:

Being married to a Canadian myself, I have never had that happen, and though I do have my own stories to tell, none are that dramatic. 

############################​

On my trip last week to the GWN (Great White North) I too, like DA, ran into disbelief from the Canadian customs agent that I was there to ride the rails - and this was aboard the Adirondack! :wacko: When I told her what I was doing I could see the disbelief on her face. After explaining my plans she asked me to show her my plane ticket home from Halifax. She seemed surprised that I had it. Almost disappointed even, that she hadn't been able to stump me.

The other thing she tried was to brow beat me on what I was bringing into the country. When she asked how long it had been since I was last in the GWN and I told her it was last month, she wanted to know more. When I explained I have family in the GWN she then went "down the well worn path" (to me) that I must be bringing gifts worth more than $60 each for family members, and wanted to see how much luggage I had. Fortunately I travel light and when she saw how little luggage I had, decided she had better fish to catch, and moved on. Maybe it is because I've got relatives in the GWN, but tax avoidance on goods brought into the GWN is the thing I've found the GWN's guard dogs to have always been the most concerned about in almost 33 years of crossing the border.

Conversely, I found the US agents to be respectful and even friendly when coming back into The States on these last two trips. When I came back into the US the evening of the day the US hockey team lost to the Canadians at the Olympics, one was even sympathetic to being in the GWN during the game. While my experience with US agents has not always been as pleasent, the contrast between US and GWN agents was marked during these last two trips.


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## railiner (Mar 26, 2014)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > ..............I found Canadian immigration more abrasive and tedious than than the others. No other country showed any interest or concern over where I was going or what I wanted to see. No other country took issue with the very idea that _anyone_ would travel internationally for the simple purpose of enjoying a journey by rail.
> ...


Whether you go thru US inspection in the US, or pre-inspection at certain Canadian airports, should be no different....essentially once you clear the pre-inspection, you are virtually 'in' the US.....similar to being in a foreign embassy......


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 26, 2014)

> Whether you go thru US inspection in the US, or pre-inspection at certain Canadian airports, should be no different....essentially once you clear the pre-inspection, you are virtually 'in' the US.....similar to being in a foreign embassy......


Not really.....US CBP Officers have limited powers under the Pre-Clearance Act while in Canada. Im still fully protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and can terminate the preclearance process at any time and leave the area. Couldnt do that if I had already crossed the US Border (and it would probably ruin my chances of getting into the US for awhile!)

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/P-19.3/FullText.html

10. (1) Every traveller has the right, at any stage of the preclearance process, to leave a preclearance area without departing for the United States, unless a preclearance officer informs the traveller that the officer suspects on reasonable grounds that the traveller has committed an offence under section 33 or 34.

And if an offence was committed.....it would be an RCMP officer (or other Canadian Police officer) brought in to investigate.


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## railiner (Mar 27, 2014)

Okay...I didn't know the details....thanks for clearing it up....I thought that once you were cleared to board your US bound flight, if you changed your mind, you would then have to go thru Canadian inspection to 'get back' into Canada... :huh: :unsure:


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 28, 2014)

railiner said:


> .......I thought that once you were cleared to board your US bound flight, if you changed your mind, you would then have to go thru Canadian inspection to 'get back' into Canada


Oh I think you still have to do that:

_[SIZE=12pt](2) Every traveller, whether travelling from Canada or in transit through Canada, who leaves an intransit area without departing immediately for the United States must report without delay to a customs officer and an immigration officer for examination.__[/SIZE]_

It’s probably because you’ve had access to Duty-Free and have mixed with other passengers*** in the Pre-Clearance area.



***In some of the larger Canadian airports, passengers arriving from say Hong Kong and connecting to the US go directly to US Pre-Clearance bypassing Canadian CBSA (Customs) 

Pre-Clearance in Canada is just that…..you’ve been “Pre-Cleared” to enter the US and I imagine the Act governing Amtrak Pre-Clearance at Pacific Central in Vancouver is similar. You don’t “Enter” the US until the Cascades actually crosses the border at Blaine.


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## railiner (Mar 28, 2014)

Makes sense....otherwise some 'wise-guy's' might buy duty free and get away with nonpayment of taxes, by 'changing their mind', when in reality, they never intended to actually go.


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## greatcats (Apr 2, 2014)

I arrived in Scotland the other day at Edinburgh Airport and was courteously and expediently handled. Five years ago I drove one morning from Montana into Alberta and encountered a Customs guy so obnoxious tha I was tempted to punch his lights out.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 2, 2014)

greatcats said:


> I arrived in Scotland the other day at Edinburgh Airport and was courteously and expediently handled. Five years ago I drove one morning from Montana into Alberta and encountered a Customs guy so obnoxious tha I was tempted to punch his lights out.


Which road was that? The crossings from Interstates are usually better.


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2014)

greatcats said:


> I arrived in Scotland the other day at Edinburgh Airport and was courteously and expediently handled.


I have always had exceptionally polite and courteous treatment from UK border agents. Can't tell you why exactly -- they're just better trained or something.


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## greatcats (Apr 17, 2014)

Swadian- late reply. That border crossing was between Babb, MT and Cardston, AB. I drive up US 89 along Glacier NP. From Browning on a wintry morning. He was OBNOXIOUS.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 18, 2014)

greatcats said:


> Swadian- late reply. That border crossing was between Babb, MT and Cardston, AB. I drive up US 89 along Glacier NP. From Browning on a wintry morning. He was OBNOXIOUS.


Thanks, so that road goes up to Fort MacLeod?


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## greatcats (Apr 18, 2014)

Yes. I was driving from one job to another: Grand Canyon, AZ to Ketchikan, AK.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 19, 2014)

greatcats said:


> Yes. I was driving from one job to another: Grand Canyon, AZ to Ketchikan, AK.


That's a really long drive! I'm really interested in which route you took. So I guess you went on to Calgary, Jasper, Prince George, and Prince Rupert?


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## greatcats (Apr 19, 2014)

I did not mind the drive except that the first job ended abruptly, which greatly upset me at the time, and then I was offered on short notice the one in Alaska. My life was turned inside out, but it turned out OK. I recall the last 50 miles into Prince Rupert in the snow and fog as darkness fell. A bit creepy.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Apr 19, 2014)

greatcats said:


> I did not mind the drive except that the first job ended abruptly, which greatly upset me at the time, and then I was offered on short notice the one in Alaska. My life was turned inside out, but it turned out OK. I recall the last 50 miles into Prince Rupert in the snow and fog as darkness fell. A bit creepy.


I plan to visit Western Canada as well this summer, so could you recommened someplace? I heard Prince George is unsafe.


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## greatcats (Apr 19, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore - Please see Private Message.


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## The Davy Crockett (May 1, 2014)

I've posted about this in the thread The Ocean: Less Motion?


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