# VIA plans to add trains in Southwestern Ontario.



## NS VIA Fan (May 22, 2015)

VIA is planning to increase service in the Toronto – London - Windsor area

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/via-rail-to-add-more-southwestern-ontario-trains-ceo-says-1.3080795


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## neroden (May 22, 2015)

Restoring a little bit of what was lost in the last round of cuts.


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## jis (May 22, 2015)

This may be the time for the Michigan folks to start advocating for extending one of the Wolverines in conjunction with the additional VIA train, to Toronto. They could use one American and one Canadian consist. Unfortunately the through train will probably miss the stop at Detroit though. Since the Canadian consists are 110mph capable there should be no schedule penalty through Michigan either. Now then, who is going to bell the USCBP/CBSA cat?

One can dream, can't one?


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## Eric S (May 22, 2015)

Given the "challenges" at the border, perhaps another option would be to have either some Amtrak trains terminate at Windsor or some VIA Rail trains terminate at Detroit or Dearborn, so that a facility could be set up in the station (as in Vancouver now and hopefully Montreal soon). Of course, the Windsor station is not in a location that would really work for this.

I think this still falls in the dreaming category, though.


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## MikefromCrete (May 22, 2015)

As has been pointed out numerous times, the location of VIA's Windsor Station and the VIA-owned tracks that serve Windsor and Amtrak's station in Detroit do not match up with the tunnel connecting the two countries. An international train would have to use a completely different route in Canada (or mosey along some industrial trackage) requiring use of CP trackage in Canada as well as totally new stations in both Detroit and Windsor. Nothing that probably hundreds of millions of dollars couldn't solve. But money of that nature isn't easily available on either side of the border. A dedicated bus between Amtrak in Detroit (or Dearborn) and VIA in Windsor would be an easier solution, or the reinstatement of the International through Port Huron/Windsor. None of this solves the insane border crossing procedures now in place, however.


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## Bob Dylan (May 22, 2015)

Probably the best bet is to resume the train thru Port Huron/Sarnia, but a bus bridge from Detroit to Windsor would also work!

The biggest roadblock to resuming direct service is the Customs and Immigration song and dance since it seems to take forever to negotiate and then implement agreements, even with friendly allies like Canada!

Maybe this will happen in our Grandchildren's lifetime??!!!


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## jis (May 22, 2015)

Meanwhile India and Bangladesh managed to reach agreement to increase the frequency of service between Kolkata and Dhaka to 5 times a week. The C&I on that trip is still a total pain. You have to go through both Indian and Bangladeshi C&I each way. Each involves taking your bag and baggage off the train, clearing C&I and then getting back on. In total about 3 to 4 hours is taken up by C&I. But people still seem to love the service, which now runs with very heavy load factors.

Here is a pointer to a BBC documentary on the service on Youtube. The documentary is from a time before the frequency was increased from twice a week to five times a week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZruzmXNmvso&hd=1

Mods: Feel free to move this to a new thread under the appropriate group if you so desire.


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## Anderson (May 26, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Probably the best bet is to resume the train thru Port Huron/Sarnia, but a bus bridge from Detroit to Windsor would also work!
> 
> The biggest roadblock to resuming direct service is the Customs and Immigration song and dance since it seems to take forever to negotiate and then implement agreements, even with friendly allies like Canada!
> 
> Maybe this will happen in our Grandchildren's lifetime??!!!


A bus bridge would _seem_ to be feasible. Doing a deal to get a few of the Tunnel Bus services extended to the relevant stations shouldn't be impossible (even if it might be a hassle), and I'd be shocked if Amtrak and VIA wouldn't both benefit substantially from something like this.

The idea of a shared equipment operation (if you could get a through train together) strikes me as implausible unless VIA and Amtrak somehow go in on an order together. I'm imagining such a service being some absurd mix such as Budds and Amfleets (which sounds like some railfan version of Chutes and Ladders) or Rens and Horizons (which sounds like a disaster area).

FWIW, this seems to line up with VIA's existing pattern of doubling down on the "core" Corridor (Quebec-Montreal-Toronto-Windsor) while service isn't restored elsewhere. Of course, it's also possible that the last round of cuts backfired and losses actually increased as a result of reduced frequencies.


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## jis (May 26, 2015)

Anderson said:


> The idea of a shared equipment operation (if you could get a through train together) strikes me as implausible unless VIA and Amtrak somehow go in on an order together. I'm imagining such a service being some absurd mix such as Budds and Amfleets (which sounds like some railfan version of Chutes and Ladders) or Rens and Horizons (which sounds like a disaster area).


There was a short period when the International operated with one Amtrak consist and one VIA consist with no mixing of equipment. It is just that on alternate days alternate consists were used. This BTW is not terribly uncommon in other international services in other parts of the world either.

you can almost rest assured that no one is going to go out and buy new equipment just to provide one daily international service. Ain't gonna happen and is completely unnecessary too.

So I'd suggest that what you imagining is where the problem lies


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## Anderson (May 26, 2015)

jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > The idea of a shared equipment operation (if you could get a through train together) strikes me as implausible unless VIA and Amtrak somehow go in on an order together. I'm imagining such a service being some absurd mix such as Budds and Amfleets (which sounds like some railfan version of Chutes and Ladders) or Rens and Horizons (which sounds like a disaster area).
> ...


Oh, I agree that nobody is likely to run out and get new equipment. My suspicion is that we're just likely to see either a forced border transfer or one side running all of the equipment (e.g. the Maple Leaf).

Likewise, any equipment purchased wouldn't be "just" for the one international service. It would likely be part of a larger order with the "other partner" simply taking ownership of some of the equipment. Setting aside the legal issues with bilevels (or at least Superliners) in Canada, an example would be if MI equipped this off of the multi-state bilevel order they are part of. In such a case, I would imagine VIA paying for a set off of the order, Michigan paying for an additional set or reallocating one from the order, but virtually all of the maintenance and what-have-you taking place in the US.

The best comparison I can think of here would be Virginia purchasing several sets of equipment for operation on the routes running up the NEC: All part of a single larger service, but with the equipment situation providing a substantial offset in terms of costing.

One other reason I wonder on this front is that I don't know how much non-sleeper equipment VIA has free after the next round of service ramp-ups (+1x daily to Windsor and +2x daily to London/Hamilton). I know their pool isn't _that_ large to start with.

(By the way, what did VIA pair off against the Superliner set?)


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## jis (May 26, 2015)

There was a period when it ran with an Amfleet set and an LRC set. Superliners came much later AFAIR.


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## afigg (May 26, 2015)

jis said:


> This may be the time for the Michigan folks to start advocating for extending one of the Wolverines in conjunction with the additional VIA train, to Toronto. They could use one American and one Canadian consist. Unfortunately the through train will probably miss the stop at Detroit though. Since the Canadian consists are 110mph capable there should be no schedule penalty through Michigan either. Now then, who is going to bell the USCBP/CBSA cat?
> 
> One can dream, can't one?


Well, a Chicago - Michigan - Toronto service is being studied or at least looked at by Amtrak in the most recent Transportation Border Working Group meeting. Amtrak's March, 2015 viewgraph presentation (10 page PDF). Interesting passenger stats for cross-border Amtrak trips going back to 2002. Ridership to/from Canada has fallen way off on the Maple Leaf over the past 7-8 years.

I suspect the proposed Chicago - Ann Arbor - Toronto route is not getting much priority in the studies. Note that the route on the map is Chicago - Ann Arbor - Toronto, not Chicago - Detroit - Toronto. To start a new service over that route would require full political support and some funding from the state government in Michigan. Obviously, border inspections are going to be a major sticking point as I can see US Customs and Border Patrol coming up with endless reasons and excuses to delay or block setting up a border inspection facility for a passenger train.

As for equipment, Michigan will be getting a bunch of bi-level corridor cars. If they were to utilize a Wolverine consist that would otherwise lay overnight in Pontiac, extending service to Toronto would require just one additional 4-5 car trainset. Is there sufficient clearance to run bi-level cars through the tunnel to Windsor and then to Toronto?

BTW, link to the March, 2015 TBWG presentations.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 26, 2015)

jis said:


> There was a period when it ran with an Amfleet set and an LRC set......


And those LRC cars were exAmtrak but painted in VIA colours. They were specifically assigned to the International and not compatible with VIA's own LRC fleet. They had different windows (with a centre mullion) and a couple of the cars were configured with Amfleet style Snack-bars....something VIAs own LRC cars do not have. Here they are stored in Lachine, QC prior to VIA acquiring them:







VIA once assigned TEMPO equipment to the International. Here's a set at Port Huron in Jan 1983 with an Amtrak F40 for Power. The TEMPOs eventually went to the Denver Ski Train and are now on the Algoma Central Tour Train.


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## Anderson (May 26, 2015)

I forgot that Amtrak had grabbed an LRC set or two back then (IIRC this was alongside them experimenting with a bunch of other equipment back in the 70s and early 80s).

On the cross-border trains:
(1) I believe the _Adirondack _is basically capped off in terms of cross-border ridership where it is because one agency or both doesn't want more than X passengers on the train (otherwise I suspect there would be an effort to get another car or two on the train at peak times). Yes, there's probably theoretically room for a few more passengers, but extra space being available in February doesn't help with folks who can't get their desired round-trip in July because one or both days are sold out.

(2) The _Cascades _service has been capped off because of incessant mudslide problems.

(3) The ridership pattern on the Maple Leaf surprises me. Ridership basically held up through 2008 (it was rising in the years prior to that); then it cratered with the recession and never recovered. My best guess is that two factors contributed. One is that the border procedure on that train stinks compared to the other two (and the Adirondack is available for those up for a leisurely ride; for example, if taking the _Canadian_ you might as well go via Montreal since you can't be assured of a timely arrival into Toronto for the transfer, and on the way back there is _no_ way to make a same-day connection). The other is that New York subsidizes the heck out of the Adirondack's fares versus the Maple Leaf's. For example, a ticket on the Adirondack costs $68 while a coach seat on the Maple Leaf runs $124. It is also worth noting that there are a few bus services along this line which have flopped, IIRC (one called Neon jumps to mind).


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## Eric S (May 26, 2015)

IINM at one point in the 1990s the International operated with VIA locomotives and Amtrak cars. Lots of variety over the years for one little-ish train.


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