# How did the conductor communicate to the engineer before radio?



## spinnaker (Mar 27, 2019)

Hopefully this is not too far off topic. It isn't exactly Amtrak.

I was wondering back in the days of steam, before there was two way radio and electrical intercom systems. How did the conductor communicate to the engineer? There was a tender between the first passenger car (if it was a passenger car it could have been freight). 

Say the conductor wanted the engineer to pass the next station that would be a normal stop. Or maybe stop a the next station that he might pass on that run. 

How would he get word? Climb over the tender? And it would be especially difficult in a freight train. I understand the caboose was used to monitor for any issues. Well what if something came up but wasn't urgent enough to stop the train now? That could b a long way, even in those days, from caboose to engine.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 27, 2019)

There were hand signals, horn signals and bells that could convey messages. The bell signal form the basis of the current communication signal appliance (or buzzer).


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 27, 2019)

On passenger trains. Hand signals usually with a lantern. In fact we still use hand signals even today. 

Old style passenger trains also had a communication line that would send a message to the engineer as well. It wasn’t verbal. I’m not quite familiar with the system because it’s so out dated I’ve never come into contact with it.


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## spinnaker (Mar 27, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> On passenger trains. Hand signals usually with a lantern. In fact we still use hand signals even today.
> 
> Old style passenger trains also had a communication line that would send a message to the engineer as well. It wasn’t verbal. I’m not quite familiar with the system because it’s so out dated I’ve never come into contact with it.



Never thought of that. Just a simple sting rigged up would do I guess.


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## cirdan (Mar 28, 2019)

I was on a narrow gauge train in Hungary not long ago where I observed the conductor lean out of the window and shout to the engineer, telling him to stop at the next station. This is a station that sees so few passeners that this was the only time I ever saw a train stop there, despite having done that line about 10 times.

Locals told me that apparently there used to be a village there but the only way to get to that village, apart from the train, was driviing on an old rickety bridge. And when that bridge was found to be in danger of collapsing they didn't have the money to build a new one, so they simply evacuated the village, forcing the people to live elsewhere. This was in communist times, when people weren't really able to protest. The houses were all torn down and if you don't know precisely where to look, you can't see any traces at all. But for some reason they never closed down the station The ticket office is gone but there is still a platform and a shelter and just once in a while walkers turn up there and the train will stop for them.


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## lstone19 (Mar 28, 2019)

The communicating whistle was a rope that ran the length of a passenger train to a small whistle in the operating cab. The conductor pulled on it to signal the engineer. Meanings could vary between railroads but almost universal was two short meaning "when standing, start" (in other words, we're good to leave the station). At least one railroad used, when running, two short to mean "stop now" and three short to mean "stop at next passenger station" (because it was a flag stop). There was no signal for "skip next station" (as asked by the OP) because you didn't do that - if the train was scheduled to stop, it stopped and the conductor had no authority to skip a scheduled stop (if for no better reason than back in the day, almost every regular stop had an on-duty agent who might have a message for the train). 

As for freights, the caboose had a brake valve. If the conductor needed the train to stop, he applied the brakes from the rear. The engineer seeing air being taken would close the throttle, wait for the train to stop, and wait for a signal of some sort from the conductor (flag, lantern, conductor walking forward). 

Since the crew had a good briefing before starting work and knew what the plan for the trip was, it was actually possible to run without need to constantly talk.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 28, 2019)

Also, when Freights still had Cabooses, the Conductor or Brakeman in the Gondola signaled the Engineer with hand signals in daylight and lantern @ night.

And the Fireman in the engine also helped out the Engineer.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2019)

In India on LD trains there were no communication chords or anything like that. Communication between the Driver (the term generally used for the Engineer back then, now the term used is Loco Pilot) and the Guard (the term usually used for Conductor) in a running train was purely through the brake valve, in a manner of speaking. There was some opportunity to signal by hand signal and lamp (at night), but if the train was long it was a bit dicey to say the least.

At least on one occasion I was on a train (the prestigious Bombay Mail via Nagpur) where the Guard inadvertently got left behind when he failed to get on his last car Guard compartment after waving the green flag to get the train going. The Driver came to learn this only at the next station, and the train was held there until the Guard arrived on the following train to get things going again. Red faces all around. 

Today two way hand held radio is king. But still the rituals of waving flags or lamps at every passing of another train or manned signal box or manned station goes on. For higher speed trains this is sometimes achieved by special roof mounted high power lamps on the locomotive so no one has to stick their hands out in 80+mph slip stream. Apparently the visual inspection and acknowledgement continues as before even in ETCS-2 equipped ATC areas.


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## chakk (Mar 28, 2019)

Bob Dylan said:


> Also, when Freights still had Cabooses, the Conductor or Brakeman in the Gondola signaled the Engineer with hand signals in daylight and lantern @ night.
> 
> And the Fireman in the engine also helped out the Engineer.



On model railroads simulating the 1930’s (on which I occasionally operate), we still use hand and whistle signals, even when engineer and conductor are within arm’s length of each other.


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