# Checklists are for wimps



## ehbowen (Sep 20, 2018)

Dozens bleed from ears and noses after flight crew forgets to pressurize plane.


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## cpotisch (Sep 20, 2018)

Good for them.


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## RSG (Sep 20, 2018)

Hope none of that flight crew decides to change careers and go into healthcare!


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## jis (Sep 20, 2018)

There is a reason I try to avoid Jet Airways if I can.





But then again there was Air India that forgot to deploy landing gears and tried to do a belly landing at Newark before they were shooed off by the EWR Tower. to go around and please deploy the landing gears before coming in the next time. Then again, I avoid Air India too if I can but for a very different reason involving an interesting experience with them many moons ago that caused me to have to go on a round the world trek to get back to New York.


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## Palmetto (Sep 20, 2018)

jis said:


> There is a reason I try to avoid Jet Airways if I can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was leaving ORD on United many years ago, listening to channel 9, and Air India kept repeating Approach Control's instructions incorrectly. Yikes!


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## cpotisch (Sep 20, 2018)

Is there a reason that it seems like Indian airlines tend to be pretty bad at this kind of stuff? I feel like I hear about pilots with Air India and Jet Airways forgetting things and/or doing stupid stuff all the time. Five years ago, the pilot and copilot of an Air India flight actually left the cockpit to take a nap in business class, leaving a flight attendant at the controls. And five years before that, the pilots of a different Air India flight fell asleep at the controls, resulting in the plane overshooting its destination of Mumbai. That's not a stellar record of great judgement by their pilots.


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## jis (Sep 20, 2018)

Actually Indian airlines are not particularly worse than other airlines from that neck of the woods, and the larger ones like Jet, Air India and Indigo have a reasonably good safety record compared to what goes on around India and even in Southeast Asia, the Stans and Russia. Compared to the silliness of Malaysia or Philippines the Indian ones are pillars of safety, in spite of the bizarre behavior of some crew members at times.





More seriously, my reason for avoiding Jet or Air India is not so much their safety record as their strange attitude about service specially off aircraft, e.g. tendency to screw up or outright lose reservations and such. In general I fly Indian airlines only domestically in India, since there is nothing else that you can fly domestically anyway, if you must fly for the sake of time that is.


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## caravanman (Sep 20, 2018)

It seems odd to me that the pilot would "need" to pressurise a jet airliner... Surely that must be automatic these days? There are some commercial pilots on the forum, what do they say?

On a positive note, safe landing for Air India after multiple instrument failure on final approach...

https://youtu.be/5FTw9TQtw38

Ed.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 20, 2018)

caravanman said:


> It seems odd to me that the pilot would "need" to pressurise a jet airliner... Surely that must be automatic these days? There are some commercial pilots on the forum, what do they say? On a positive note, safe landing for Air India after multiple instrument failure on final approach... https://youtu.be/5FTw9TQtw38 Ed.


Many vehicles have automated headlights or windshield wipers but you still have to set the controls to the automated setting to begin with. Same thing with pressurized aircraft. The pressurization setting maybe have been adjusted intentionally by maintenance personnel looking for evidence of a leak and then simply left it alone after they were done. If the operating crew didn't bother to check the pressurization settings as part of their mandatory preflight checklist then you might have some serious problems.


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## Dakota 400 (Sep 20, 2018)

I have had 2 Jet Airway flights: Chennai to New Delhi and New Delhi to Mumbai. Both were comfortable, pleasant flights with meal service in Economy Class on both flights that offered an unexpected, and quality meal.

Were I to fly to India in the future, I would consider the services of Jet Airways.


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## cpotisch (Sep 20, 2018)

Dakota 400 said:


> I have had 2 Jet Airway flights: Chennai to New Delhi and New Delhi to Mumbai. Both were comfortable, pleasant flights with meal service in Economy Class on both flights that offered an unexpected, and quality meal.
> 
> Were I to fly to India in the future, I would consider the services of Jet Airways.


We'll always remember you.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 20, 2018)

Why does Air India seen to have so many problems when it comes to Landings and ATC Instructions?

To borrow a Catch phrase from the Great Movie "Cool Hand Luke": "What we have here is a Failure to Comnunicate!"


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## B757Guy (Sep 22, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> > It seems odd to me that the pilot would "need" to pressurise a jet airliner... Surely that must be automatic these days? There are some commercial pilots on the forum, what do they say? On a positive note, safe landing for Air India after multiple instrument failure on final approach... https://youtu.be/5FTw9TQtw38 Ed.
> ...


The 777 I fly has an automatic system, which is very sophisticated. Further, if there are issues with the system, we receive multiple alerts in the cockpit. I didn't read the article, so not sure what type of aircraft it was, but most modern airliners have multiple warnings in place to alert the crew, if there is a pressurization issue.


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## jis (Sep 22, 2018)

Jet Airways domestic flight => most likely some variety of 737.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 22, 2018)

B757Guy said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > caravanman said:
> ...


I agree that modern aircraft are extremely sophisticated, with many prescriptive and corrective systems, but the operators remain fallible nonetheless. Although CRM played a core role in the Asiana Airlines Flight 214 a contributing factor was an irrational level of faith in the ability of the aircraft to self-correct for human mistakes. Helios Airways Flight 522 alerted the pilots to a pressurization problem caused by improper configuration but they either misunderstood or misinterpreted the nature and severity of the alert until it was too late.


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## B757Guy (Sep 22, 2018)

It's a combination of poor training, too much reliance on automation, and poor stick and rudder skills. Stick and rudder being one of the biggest issues....


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## cpotisch (Sep 26, 2018)

But does it seem like there's any particular reason why Jet Airways and Air India have pilots that seem particularly prone to making reckless decisions and forgetting critical flight procedures? Does India have lower standards for pilots or something?


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## jis (Sep 26, 2018)

India has a more open press and an active aviation enthusiast community unlike many other countries in that part of the world.

There are also a lot of incidents even in the US that we never hear of. I have a close friend who was an investigator of incidents at FAA, and some of the stories are truly hair raising. But his attitude is that each incident that did not become an accident is an instance of the system working, though not as satisfactorily as one would like.


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## XHRTSP (Sep 26, 2018)

caravanman said:


> It seems odd to me that the pilot would "need" to pressurise a jet airliner... Surely that must be automatic these days? There are some commercial pilots on the forum, what do they say?


Can't speak for the 73, but on the 74 no action at all is required to set the pressurization. (except turning the packs back on after engine start, but in India you'd notice quick if you left those off) Now if there's a switch out of its normal position when the crew arrives (say outflow valve set to manual and full open) then that could be missed if they were rushing through their cockpit setup and not paying attention to their flows. But even then, the EICAS (airplane computer that warns you of danger) will tell you if you're in a nonstandard configuration like that.


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## GBNorman (Sep 29, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> I was leaving ORD on United many years ago, listening to channel 9, and Air India kept repeating Approach Control's instructions incorrectly. Yikes!


Ah, United Channel 9!
I had not had it offered (it's at the Captain's discretion) since 9/11 - until last August flying EDDM to KORD.

Supposedly, English is the official language of ATC (save some interior parts of Russia), but the "English" spoken with ATC in Europe leaves a bit to be desired.

Downright scary was after Reagan fired all the union Controllers during '81, busted their Union, and replaced them with scabs. Listening to Ch 9, you could hear mistakes being made when taxiing, and the Officers saying "nice words" about them.


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## B757Guy (Sep 30, 2018)

_*"Downright scary was after Reagan fired all the union Controllers during '81, busted their Union, and replaced them with scabs. Listening to Ch 9, you could hear mistakes being made when taxiing, and the Officers saying "nice words" about them. "*_

Respectfully disagree, I've been a pilot for slightly over 35 years now, first with the Air Force, and now a very large airline, based at an airport within some of the busiest airspace in the country, Almost unequivocally, all of the controllers I have ever worked with have been exceptional. Honestly, most of the mistakes made have been my fellow pilots, not the controllers.


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## jis (Sep 30, 2018)

Yeah. There appears to be a certain - shall we say- union propaganda involved in that position about ATC folks after the strike [emoji57]


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