# LD Train Serving San Diego?



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jan 31, 2016)

I have suggested to increase/expand LD service to certain cities and increase the number of direct, one seat rides for these areas. Two of them I had previously were Boston and San Jose. BOS has just the LSL extension and SJC has just the CS at this time.

Then I thought of San Diego. They have no LD trains at all ( only have Pacific Surfliner service to/from LAX). So while BOS can still travel to CHI, CLE, and upstate NY (in addition to the NER) and San Jose can go to LAX and the Pacific Northwest, San Diego passengers can only go as far as LAX and have to transfer there to go further.

The three LD trains serving LAX are the SWC, CS, and SL/TE.

I'm thinking the SWC would require an awkward direction change in LAX to head south.

The CS would probably not. If you merged with the published 796 (south) and 763 (north), you would have 5 hrs (1am to 6am) to service the train in San Diego (if there is a place to service an LD train).

One out of the box idea: The SL/TE services Yuma, Arizona. Is there a track between Yuma and San Diego? If so, the SL/TE could theoretically go from Yuma to San Diego and then north into LAX, possibly serving Anaheim or somewhere else in Orange County? The train would still originate/terminate in LAX so service/maintenance wouldn't be an issue compared to extending the CS. You would have to skip Palm Springs, Ontario, and Pomona but none of those served more than 5,000 passengers in 2015 (https://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/CALIFORNIA15.pdf). You'd be trading those cities for San Diego and Orange County. Perhaps that will increase ridership on the SL/TE.

I don't know whether going via San Diego would be faster/slower from Yuma than going via Palm Springs. If it's later, the SL/TE could actually arrive in LAX at a time closer to a reasonable time compared to the 5:35am it does now (although with my schedule change proposal it wouldn't be a factor).

Of course this all assumes there is a track from Yuma to San Diego (or Maricopa or Tucson or somewhere else in Arizona you want to reroute the SL/TE from).

Then again, if we're talking SL/TE rerouting, the first priority should be Phoenix using the original SL route (1993: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19930502n&item=0030)

I guess San Diego is like San Jose and Boston in suffering from bad geographic locations when it comes to trains. Essentially NYP is the northeast corner for most LD trains like LAX is the southwest corner (with SEA the NW and MIA the SE corners).


----------



## CCC1007 (Jan 31, 2016)

The Coast Starlight did serve San Diego at one point in time, and was cut back due to the reverse move needed to service Los Angeles Union passenger terminal.

While Palm Springs doesn't have many passengers currently, the state of California wants to operate a day train to there from Los Angeles, similar to the cardinal and Hoosier state, to increase the passenger count.

The only reason that the SL doesn't serve Phoenix directly is that Union Pacific wanted to par down on their route miles in Arizona, and chose to use the more rural route to allow for faster trip times on the sunset route. I was in Phoenix about a month ago, and there is a path through the desert that would not cost much, and would directly serve Phoenix with only about 30 minutes of extra time.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jan 31, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> The Coast Starlight did serve San Diego at one point in time, and was cut back due to the reverse move needed to service Los Angeles Union passenger terminal.


Interesting. So any train going through LAX from north to south would have to reverse move? I'm assuming the same would apply to the SWC?



CCC1007 said:


> The only reason that the SL doesn't serve Phoenix directly is that Union Pacific wanted to par down on their route miles in Arizona, and chose to use the more rural route to allow for faster trip times on the sunset route. I was in Phoenix about a month ago, and there is a path through the desert that would not cost much, and would directly serve Phoenix with only about 30 minutes of extra time.


With the current schedule, an extra 30 minutes means the train gets in at 6:05am instead of 5:35am. Make it an extra hour or two and the train can get into LAX in daylight. Extra time doesn't mean much to me with the current LAX arrival.


----------



## TinCan782 (Jan 31, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > The Coast Starlight did serve San Diego at one point in time, and was cut back due to the reverse move needed to service Los Angeles Union passenger terminal.
> ...


Yes, that is correct. The Pacific Surfliner and Metrolink commuter trains operate "push/pull" making a reverse move a moot point since a cab car is on the end opposite the loco. There is (for some time now) discussion and proposals for "run-through" tracks at LAUS.


----------



## CCC1007 (Jan 31, 2016)

The problem with LAUPT is that it's a terminus.


----------



## ParanoidAndroid (Jan 31, 2016)

Hello! There's no working track from Yuma AZ to San Diego CA. The remaining section is old, worn out, and runs through Mexico for a large part of it. There used to be passenger trains along this route, until everyone got fed up with the constant fires, tunnel collapses and landslides that they decided not to fix it. The only remnant of trains here is the San Diego Blue Line Trolley from Downtown to San Ysidro, and a small heritage train that runs from it's small depot in Campo CA to the tunnel into Mexico a little bit west. That's about it. The tracks east of there to Yuma are abandoned and replaced by other stuff, so there's effectively no through track to Yuma. There has never been tracks from SD to Yuma completely inside the United States (without detouring up to the LA area). Check it out on Google Earth if you can.

It would be nice if the Starlight sent some cars down the coast to San Diego. It did earlier, but the Coast starlight was constantly late back then, that they stopped the practice. Now it's on-time a lot more, so this idea is a good one. Really, the SL/TXE could also send some cars down on #562 to San Diego, as this train is miraculously on time most of the time, and #562 departs LA at 6:15am (perfect timing). The same cars could go back up on #591 (maybe shift 591's schedule)

And yeah, LA union is a terminus. As mentioned above, the train switches direction at LA, and the Pacific Surfliner does this everyday. It's a bigger problem with LD trains though, since there's no cab car at the end, only a regular sleeper or coach car.


----------



## afigg (Jan 31, 2016)

FrensicPic said:


> Yes, that is correct. The Pacific Surfliner and Metrolink commuter trains operate "push/pull" making a reverse move a moot point since a cab car is on the end opposite the loco. There is (for some time now) discussion and proposals for "run-through" tracks at LAUS.


The plan for run-through tracks at LA Union Station has moved from taking about stage to official plans and re-doing the environmental and engineering design studies. The project is now called the Southern California Regional Interconnector Project (SCRIP) (link to a 2 page fact sheet from December 2014 which has a projected 2019 completion date). Searching for more recent news, came across this October 2015 presentation to the LA Metro board. From the presentation, the SCRIP run-through track design has to accommodate future plans for HSR tracks and platforms, so SCRIP is getting tied up in the CA HSR project. Based on the viewgraphs, SCRIP is not going to advance to start of construction for at least several more years.

As for extending the Coast Starlight to San Diego, even when the run-through tracks at LA Union Station are completed, I doubt Amtrak will have any interest in doing so. LA is where the overnight service facilities for the LD trains are. However, I think California's plans for the Coast Daylight are to run it to San Diego, since the Coast Daylight would be essentially an extension of a Surfliner train to San Francisco. A San Diego to LA to San Jose to San Francisco daytime train should be popular.


----------



## neroden (Feb 2, 2016)

FWIW the Mexican portion of the San Diego - Yuma line is actually operating, but border paranoia has been so extreme for *my entire lifetime* that I don't expect to see through traffic again before I die.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 3, 2016)

afigg said:


> As for extending the Coast Starlight to San Diego, even when the run-through tracks at LA Union Station are completed, I doubt Amtrak will have any interest in doing so. LA is where the overnight service facilities for the LD trains are. However, I think California's plans for the Coast Daylight are to run it to San Diego, since the Coast Daylight would be essentially an extension of a Surfliner train to San Francisco. A San Diego to LA to San Jose to San Francisco daytime train should be popular.


Isn't the Coast Starlight essentially a "day" train between LAX and SJC? I think we really need an overnight train between the cities. If I had to travel 10+ hrs between the two cities, I'd rather sleep off the hours than give up my entire day. If you did a 12 hr shift of the CS times between SAC and LAX and extend them to San Diego, it would be a pretty good schedule IMO.


----------



## CCC1007 (Feb 3, 2016)

That would make too much sense. More sense would be to operate up the Central Valley, overnight, as there is higher population in that region than on the coast.


----------



## Eric S (Feb 3, 2016)

One of the more recent (2014, maybe 2015) planning reports for the Coast Daylight projected a second, overnight train being added at some point after the initial, daytime train begins. You could probably dig up one of the threads here about the Coast Daylight proposals, or google it to see the proposals.

Of course, CAHSR looms over all these plans. Although a market would likely remain for service to the intermediate Coast Line stations, I'm not sure a market would remain for overnight service.


----------



## fairviewroad (Feb 4, 2016)

If we're just dreaming, how about a train from LAX, through San Diego, down to Cabo San Lucas. Are there tracks? Probably not, but with enough money and political will you can do anything. This route would do well with both tourists and VFR traffic, I'd wager.


----------



## jis (Feb 4, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> If we're just dreaming, how about a train from LAX, through San Diego, down to Cabo San Lucas. Are there tracks? Probably not, but with enough money and political will you can do anything. This route would do well with both tourists and VFR traffic, I'd wager.


Just stretch it all the way to _Tierra del Fuego_  The new _Pan American Railway _project!


----------



## Bob Dylan (Feb 4, 2016)

That would make for a long trestle over the Sea of Cortez or else a fleet of Train Ferries to get the Trains to/from the Baja to the Mainland of Mexico!

Reminds me of "The Old Pantegonian Express"!


----------



## neroden (Feb 5, 2016)

If the border paranoia ever died down, the first international route to Mexico City should be Mexico City - San Luis Potosi - Monterrey - Laredo-San Antonio-Austin-DFW

Second should be Mexico City - Torreon-Chihuahua-Juarez-El Paso-Albuquerque.


----------



## afigg (Feb 5, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Isn't the Coast Starlight essentially a "day" train between LAX and SJC? I think we really need an overnight train between the cities. If I had to travel 10+ hrs between the two cities, I'd rather sleep off the hours than give up my entire day. If you did a 12 hr shift of the CS times between SAC and LAX and extend them to San Diego, it would be a pretty good schedule IMO.


The Coast Daylight (CD) would indeed be a day train (the name is a clue), but would go to San Francisco, providing direct access (or close to downtown access) to the SF market. It would be offset a few hours in the schedule from the Starlight, would have less padding in the schedule than the LD train, and would be more reliable for the southbound trips. The primary purpose of the CD would be to provide LA and SF area access to the stops along the route, not just serve the LA to SF endpoint markets. An overnight train provides lousy hours for the coastal stops in-between. It will be a state supported train and you might notice the lack of overnight state supported trains with or w/o sleeper service.


----------



## afigg (Feb 5, 2016)

Eric S said:


> One of the more recent (2014, maybe 2015) planning reports for the Coast Daylight projected a second, overnight train being added at some point after the initial, daytime train begins. You could probably dig up one of the threads here about the Coast Daylight proposals, or google it to see the proposals.
> 
> Of course, CAHSR looms over all these plans. Although a market would likely remain for service to the intermediate Coast Line stations, I'm not sure a market would remain for overnight service.


The Daylight recent EIS does project a second daily service as an overnight train several decades from now. Given how long CA has been studying and talking about restoring the Daylight corridor train, getting the daytime train running in the next 5-6 years would be an achievement.
Even if CA were to somehow fund and start an overnight SF to LA train along the route before CA HSR starts LA to SF service, the sub 3 hour HSR train would kill off the overnight train rather quickly. The Daylight corridor would become a feeder connector from the coastal communities to the HSR system. Which means daytime service to the communities between LA and San Jose.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 5, 2016)

afigg said:


> The Coast Daylight (CD) would indeed be a day train (the name is a clue), but would go to San Francisco, providing direct access (or close to downtown access) to the SF market. It would be offset a few hours in the schedule from the Starlight, would have less padding in the schedule than the LD train, and would be more reliable for the southbound trips. The primary purpose of the CD would be to provide LA and SF area access to the stops along the route, not just serve the LA to SF endpoint markets. An overnight train provides lousy hours for the coastal stops in-between. It will be a state supported train and you might notice the lack of overnight state supported trains with or w/o sleeper service.


It would be interesting to have intercity train service to/from San Francisco. Would they connect from San Fran to San Jose or some other way? Why hasn't the Capitols service served the city?


----------



## CCC1007 (Feb 5, 2016)

They would likely operate over Caltrain tracks, which are busy, and that would require a reverse move if the current trains were to be used from the Capitol Corridor.


----------



## Eric S (Feb 5, 2016)

Pretty sure we've gone over this before, but why would anyone propose routing the Capitols to San Francisco after arriving in San Jose? Look at a map to see how bizarre a routing that would be.

One complication for any Coast Daylight (or similar service) running between San Jose and San Francisco may be the Caltrain plan to adopt high-level equipment and platforms. Might be that *if* the Coast Daylight actually enters service that its Bay Area terminus is either San Jose or Oakland rather than San Francisco.


----------



## fairviewroad (Feb 8, 2016)

Eric S said:


> One complication for any Coast Daylight (or similar service) running between San Jose and San Francisco may be the Caltrain plan to adopt high-level equipment and platforms. Might be that *if* the Coast Daylight actually enters service that it's Bay Area terminus is either San Jose or Oakland rather than San Francisco.


Or Emeryville. Or for that matter, Sacramento.

Really, if you have a well-timed Caltrain connection in San Jose, there's no need for Amtrak to run up the peninsula. Amtrak could even offer the San Jose-SF segment as a Thruway ticket, like they do with ACE trains or NJT trains.


----------



## west point (Feb 9, 2016)

Since SAN - San Francisco has no maintenance except LAX maybe it would be better to run the train to Oakland. If a day train add San Francisco cars to the rear of train. At San Jose remove the SFO cars and place them on the next Caltrain so Caltrain wound not be delayed if northbound late.

Southbound place SAN cars on rear of Scheduled Caltrain and place them on rear of OAK - SAN train. When at SAN SFO cars ould be on front to rotate to OAK.

Of course if a night train then rotate the cars the same way.

Would Amtrak even need a conductor SFO - SJC ?


----------



## jis (Feb 9, 2016)

Caltrain trains are push pull. They cannot easily have a bunch of random cars hooked onto them to go to San Fran. Almost guaranteed that this will never happen. If there is any service from the South to San Fran, it will be as a separate Amtrak California push pull train (since there is nowhere to turn anything at San Fran anymore) and not as part of any Caltrain train.


----------



## west point (Feb 9, 2016)

Since Caltrain pushes into San Fran why not couple any SAN cars south of the loco ?


----------



## Palmetto (Feb 9, 2016)

Then the Amtrak equipment becomes orphaned in San Fran, so to speak. There' s no maintenance base for Amtrak there. Going to Oakland is a better operation, for that reason, but only for that reason. If a piece of equipment has to be taken out of service, it would be much better to do that at the Oakland terminus, don't you think?


----------



## jis (Feb 9, 2016)

west point said:


> Since Caltrain pushes into San Fran why not couple any SAN cars south of the loco ?


Why? That will mean stationing a person in San Jose to couple/uncouple cars, it will require the same staff on train as would be required to just run the train to San Fran (except one additional engineer). And somehow these cars will have to be switched from the south of the train to the north end of the train in San Fran requiring a person to be stationed there to couple and uncouple cars and shuffle them around, and an Engineer to stick around to do yard work. Why bother? Just run the Amtrak California train to San Fran. Even if you are running it from San Diego, one can always figure out a link that terminates the consist in LAX to send it for servicing. All this is not rocket science. Really.



Palmetto said:


> Then the Amtrak equipment becomes orphaned in San Fran, so to speak. There' s no maintenance base for Amtrak there. Going to Oakland is a better operation, for that reason, but only for that reason. If a piece of equipment has to be taken out of service, it would be much better to do that at the Oakland terminus, don't you think?


 Ideally it should go to Oakland and let passengers connect at San Jose to Caltrain. But if one must send it to San Fran, it is doable with some additional effort. Clearly if there is a bad ordered car discovered at San Fran then it will have to be switched with the help of Oakland.

The Amtrak equipment gets exactly as orphaned in San Fran as say the Vermonter gets orphaned in St. Albans or the Empire Service trains get orphaned in Niagara Falls, or the Palmetto gets orphaned in Savannah. It is not that big a deal.


----------



## west point (Feb 9, 2016)

Orphan layovers ? wouldn't San Fran <> San Diego both ways be orphans ? Your examples of Vermonter and others only have one night layover. This poster's example would still require 4 days before major maintenance location of Oakland which might be too long. 2656 miles between heavy maintenance might require an extra car on trains to allow for any break downs. Only the Eagle to LAX has more miles and there are a couple standby cars available in San Antonia.

Going SAN <> SFO would require LAX to plan for replacement cars when needed.

Last time in SJC and SFO there was switch crews available at both locations . All SFO has to do is snatch the end SAN cars off end of a Caltrain and park them at one of Townsend's (SFP) bumper posts.


----------



## Paulus (Feb 10, 2016)

I swear you guys are trying to set up a run that would make dispatchers go postal.

Look, Amtrak's suggestion to the coast rail coordinating council that the Daylight be San Jose to San Diego makes perfect sense. San Jose has overnight layover facilities, north of San Jose will be congested as hell with Caltrain and HSR and a slow accelerating diesel train will snarl things up, and San Jose-San Diego allows for regular maintenance as it cycles between Surfliner and Daylight. So can we stop with these bizarre suggestions already?


----------



## jis (Feb 10, 2016)

Paulus, I completely agree with you. I was just trying to show how bizarre the suggestion was, only to get responses that were even more bizarre. So I finally threw up my hands and gave up.


----------



## fairviewroad (Feb 10, 2016)

jis said:


> Paulus, I completely agree with you. I was just trying to show how bizarre the suggestion was, only to get responses that were even more bizarre.


Yes, but How Bizarre?

https://youtu.be/C2cMG33mWVY


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Feb 10, 2016)

Paulus said:


> I swear you guys are trying to set up a run that would make dispatchers go postal.
> 
> Look, Amtrak's suggestion to the coast rail coordinating council that the Daylight be San Jose to San Diego makes perfect sense. San Jose has overnight layover facilities, north of San Jose will be congested as hell with Caltrain and HSR and a slow accelerating diesel train will snarl things up, and San Jose-San Diego allows for regular maintenance as it cycles between Surfliner and Daylight. So can we stop with these bizarre suggestions already?


In one of my previous posts (http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66425-extending-cz-to-oakland-san-jose/). you sounded like you were all saying San Jose didn't have layover facilities. If they actually do have overnight layover facilities in San Jose why can't the CZ be extended there?

Feel free to move this to the other thread if you wish.


----------



## Eric S (Feb 10, 2016)

There are facilities in San Jose for corridor trains to layover (as Capitol Corridor does now and Coast Daylight could do).

There are not facilities to service long distance trains - those facilities are near Oakland (between Oakland and Emeryville).


----------



## ParanoidAndroid (Mar 31, 2016)

Well, ok.

You could theoretically go through Mexico then through Campo and the Carrizo Gorge to El Centro, up to Niland then east on the UP/SP line, but improvements would have to be made.


----------



## jis (Mar 31, 2016)

Eric S said:


> There are facilities in San Jose for corridor trains to layover (as Capitol Corridor does now and Coast Daylight could do).
> 
> There are not facilities to service long distance trains - those facilities are near Oakland (between Oakland and Emeryville).


Yeah, I doubt that any LD trains will be serviced at San Jose storage yard with minimal maintenance capability. The maintenance base for Capitol Corridor is Oakland and for Coast Daylight it will be Los Angeles. For similar reasons it is very unlikely that any LD train will serve San Diego either. It is just an out station with no maintenance facility. The maintenance base3 is Los Angeles.

The Coast Daylight will essentially be an extension of a San Louis Obispo turn of the LOSSAN North service, to San Francisco. it will presumably receive the sort of servicing it does today in San Louis Obispo, and not much more. It being a push-pull service already, there will be no need to turn the train in San Francisco. Its primary maintenance base will be Los Angeles. I gathered all this from reading the Appendix C Service Development Plan of the EIS available from FRA.

There is mention of a second overnight frequency. If you look at its cost analysis, it appears that it is based on the same 5 staff per train as the daytime train, which suggests that it will be yet another extension of a LOSSAN North service to San Francisco. This suggests that at least at present no Sleeper service is planned for it, but of course such could change, changing the whole cost analysis of it.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but isn't the whole point of the Coast Starlight from SJC to LAX, and then the Pacific Surfliner to San Diego, to ride along the ocean in daylight? If I ever travel all the way across the country to ride a train along the Pacific Coast, I would want to see that coast!


----------



## jis (Mar 31, 2016)

Nobody is changing anything as far as the Coast Starlight goes. it will continue to serve as the tourist train. Coast Daylight is going to be a milk run stopping at many more places serving the local travel needs of the residents along the Los Angeles - San Francisco coastal corridor. It will essentially be a standard LOSSAN regional train that runs all the way from Los Angeles to San Francisco along the coast. Such service already exists from Los Angeles to San Louis Obispo in addition to the Coast Starlight.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 31, 2016)

Oh, I see. Thanks, jis.

Just as long as I get to see the Pacific Ocean in daylight, I'm certainly fine with the locals having a train with more stops at whatever time they want. (After all, living in NJ, I've seen the Atlantic Ocean so much that sometimes if I go down the Shore I just take it for granted  .)


----------



## Metra Electric Rider (Mar 31, 2016)

neroden said:


> If the border paranoia ever died down, the first international route to Mexico City should be Mexico City - San Luis Potosi - Monterrey - Laredo-San Antonio-Austin-DFW
> 
> Second should be Mexico City - Torreon-Chihuahua-Juarez-El Paso-Albuquerque.


Considering that there are packed "express" buses from the Midwest to Mexico, I think a train would be a reasonable success and far more comfortable.


----------



## jis (Mar 31, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh, I see. Thanks, jis.
> 
> Just as long as I get to see the Pacific Ocean in daylight, I'm certainly fine with the locals having a train with more stops at whatever time they want. (After all, living in NJ, I've seen the Atlantic Ocean so much that sometimes if I go down the Shore I just take it for granted  .)


The first Daylight service is slated to run during the day light hours arriving San Fran at 6:32pm and departing San Fran at 7:07am, running ahead of the Coast Starlight in both directions. The second service in the future will be an overnight service, roughly 12 hours removed from the first service.


----------



## Paulus (Mar 31, 2016)

jis said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I see. Thanks, jis.
> ...


Here's the latest on Daylight planning from the LOSSAN Business Plan


----------



## ParanoidAndroid (Apr 6, 2016)

San Diego's at 4 am though. But I assume it would be better to just leave the schedule as is and start the train at Los Angeles. SD to SF people can ride the Coast Starlight or go up the San Joaquin (surprisingly faster than the CS). If they really want to ride this train, an existing early morning Metrolink (4:37am Oceanside to 6:40am Los Angeles) could be used to connect to 761.

Would more stops be added between SLO and SJC? Like Atascadero or King City?


----------



## jis (Apr 6, 2016)

The San Joaquins will be even faster once they start running on the segment of HSR in the valley that they can use.


----------



## TiBike (Apr 7, 2016)

maxbuskirk said:


> Would more stops be added between SLO and SJC? Like Atascadero or King City?


The state's rail plan calls for upgraded stations in King City and Soledad to support the Coast Daylight. That would put pretty much everyone in the Salinas Valley (at least from San Lucas north) within about 10 miles of a station. The Capitol Corridor extension would add stations in Castroville and Pajaro/Watsonville, so those might be on the route too. The existing Caltrain stations in Gilroy and Morgan Hill are obvious candidates.

No mention of Atascadero. That would be nice, though.


----------



## seat38a (Apr 7, 2016)

For all that have never been to SD. Here is Amtrak's maintenance plan and facility for San Diego. If it breaks down along the way, they send this out to go get it and take it back to LA. Even the Coaster does not have a maintenance facility in downtown, just storage. They don't even restock the cafe cars in SD. If its sold out, there is nothing until they get back to LAUS.



IMG_0647 by B H, on Flickr


----------

