# Engines on Sunset Ltd./Bayou Canot accident



## NativeSon5859 (Jul 28, 2007)

I know P40 #819, which only a week old, was in the consist. What about the two other locomotives? Anyone know their number?


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## AmtrakFan (Jul 28, 2007)

262 and 312


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## battalion51 (Jul 28, 2007)

819 was actually destined for Sanford for training for the Auto Train crews on the P-40 systems.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jul 28, 2007)

Thanks guys....lately for some reason I've been doing research on that accident. I found a very interesting article which was written by one of the conductors on the train....very compelling first hand account of the tragedy and heroism that took place that night.


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## battalion51 (Jul 28, 2007)

Nativeson, any chance you can provide a link to that article?


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## NativeSon5859 (Jul 28, 2007)

battalion51 said:


> Nativeson, any chance you can provide a link to that article?


Here you go sir...

destruction of the sunset limited


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2007)

It is also very worthwhile to go to the official NTSB accident report. It can be found by going to the icc historical accident reports on dotlibrary1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?websearch&site=dot_railroads

Then go to 1993 and to AMTRAK. This was not really a railroad accident, but a inland marine navigation accident that caught a train.


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## X996 (Jan 10, 2014)

******************** Near Seven Year Old Topic *******************************

Like Nativeson, I'm doing research about this tragic accident. The full NTSB report could be very helpful to me but it seems the link provided here is dead, anyone knows where I could find it?

In fact, I'd need it to know accurately how were placed the engines in the MU ? (Cab forward or not for the 262 and 312)


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## Nathanael (Jan 10, 2014)

The most interesting thing about this disaster is the problems this exposed in the marine navigation safety system. The tugboat had wandered into a non-navigable (!!!) river channel in the fog. The railroad bridge was missing a number of safety features which were routine for bridges over navigable rivers, but which seemed pointless for bridges over non-navigable rivers.

The main recommendations involved trying harder to make sure that tugboat crews knew where they were. Tugboat safety turned out to have been very lax.


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## SarahZ (Jan 10, 2014)

That accident is exactly why I always rest my hand on the emergency window latch any time we go over the Mississippi or another large body of water. I cannot imagine being trapped like that. It's a horrific story.


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## X996 (Jan 11, 2014)

Here is a screenshot taken from a TV doc that shows the 3 locomotives after the crash.

I have two certainties, the P40 and the second F40 (#312) were "cab forward". It is quite obvious for the Genesis and a +90% probability about the #312 regarding its attitude compared to the baggage car.

But what about the #262 ?

Did it keep its direction after crashing in the bank or did it make a 180° rotation ?


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## Nathanael (Jan 11, 2014)

180 degree reversal according to the personal account linked earlier.


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## X996 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hi,

Is it confirmed by this particular quote ?



> Then the second unit flipped around and exploded.


Sorry if my question may sound surprising but english is not my native language therefore it happens I miss the nuance of the vocabulary.


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## trainman74 (Jan 11, 2014)

X996 said:


> Is it confirmed by this particular quote ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, "flipped around" is an informal way of saying "180º rotation."


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## NE933 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nathanael said:


> 180 degree reversal according to the personal account linked earlier.


This is pictoral to the enormous forces of energy involved, tonnage in the thousands exploding in all directions.

The scenes of former crewmember Gary Farmer's story in the link, seeing #819 buried nose first in the mud, hoping his engineer friends went quickly without anxiety and pain, and the sinking coach in which drowning passengers banged against the windows in vain, it hurts to read that. As does the sight of the tugboat crews' broken spirits. He wonders what sort of kind and merciful creator would allow such horrors to happen, a theme that many struggled with on 9/11, the Asian tsunami in 2004, and Chase, MD 1987.

Whenever I hear the loud blabermouth know it alls who profess 'you control all that's in your life, it's all up to you' has not pondered much about how the fickle finger of fate can cut in every now and then.


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## George Harris (Jan 11, 2014)

Try this: http://ntl1.specialcollections/scripts/dll?websearch&site=dot_railroads

the go to 1993 then Amtrak. The report is titled RAR-94-01

The train was moving westbound by the compass, northbound by railroad mileposts. When looking at the sketch of the site you see milepost 657. Zero is at Louisville KY.

OK, tried the link as I put it in above and got nothing. Try this: http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/

Then go to I.C.C. Historical Railroad Investigation Reports (1911-1994), the go to 1993, then Amtrak


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## bgiaquin (Jan 11, 2014)

I found a story a while back where a locomotive engineer came up with a plausible scenario about what was going on in the cab of 819 that fateful night. The three engineers were Michael D. Vinet, Ernest L. Hess, and Billy R. "BR" Hall. The engineer somehow concluded and/or figured out that it was Vinet who was at the controls at the time of the crash. One quote from the engineer: "In the final moments, I can imagine Vinet reaching in vain for the brake to try to stop the train as it catapaulted into the bayou". Very Sad.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 11, 2014)

A picture can speak 1000 words

http://www.railroad.net/forums/download/file.php?id=9092

Thanks to X996 for finding this and I give full copyright to whoever took it.


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## battalion51 (Jan 12, 2014)

bgiaquin said:


> I found a story a while back where a locomotive engineer came up with a plausible scenario about what was going on in the cab of 819 that fateful night. The three engineers were Michael D. Vinet, Ernest L. Hess, and Billy R. "BR" Hall. The engineer somehow concluded and/or figured out that it was Vinet who was at the controls at the time of the crash. One quote from the engineer: "In the final moments, I can imagine Vinet reaching in vain for the brake to try to stop the train as it catapaulted into the bayou". Very Sad.


From what I understand when they pull tapes, they can tell who's running by little things in the way they run the engine. Things like how they blow the horn, throttle/braking patterns, etc.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 12, 2014)

battalion51 said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> > I found a story a while back where a locomotive engineer came up with a plausible scenario about what was going on in the cab of 819 that fateful night. The three engineers were Michael D. Vinet, Ernest L. Hess, and Billy R. "BR" Hall. The engineer somehow concluded and/or figured out that it was Vinet who was at the controls at the time of the crash. One quote from the engineer: "In the final moments, I can imagine Vinet reaching in vain for the brake to try to stop the train as it catapaulted into the bayou". Very Sad.
> ...


Ah yes thank you.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 12, 2014)

Of interest, here is the only known photo of P40 819 before the wreck. It was taken by Christopher Palmieri in New Orleans just days before.


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## Ryan (Jan 13, 2014)

X996 said:


> Here is a screenshot taken from a TV doc that shows the 3 locomotives after the crash.
> 
> I have two certainties, the P40 and the second F40 (#312) were "cab forward". It is quite obvious for the Genesis and a +90% probability about the #312 regarding its attitude compared to the baggage car.
> 
> ...


That analysis matches this diagram from the NTSB report:






I'd be reasonably comfortable saying all 3 were running cab forward.


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## X996 (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks for your input, Ryan.


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## NE933 (Jan 14, 2014)

The 819 is legendary. One TV program few years ago in my memory mentioned, subject to correction, it's previous assignment was on the SB City of New Orleans. It received service and exams being a new model of locomotive, and a day or so later, the new relauncched Sunset Limited service extended to Miami with great fanfare,with Disney characters on board in the Spring, came in on September 22, 1993, and 819 was added on front. Can anyone add or adjust my version of its timeframe?

And a rreal biggie: how was 819 disposed of after recovery from the swamp? Does it exist in some warehouse or hidden railyard? Wo would decide after all claims are paid and suits are settled?

I admitt culpability in wanting to know so i can see it. I'd want to go to the Canot bridge itself, but i don't have access to a watercraft, so if access were permitted, I'd go to the 819 to touch it like i did the bent and broken beams of the World Trade Center twin towers. Just something I'm driven to do.


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## CREW DORM #2524 (Jan 15, 2014)

The 819 made a few trips on 58/59 to Chicago as well as 19/20 to DC. It was on the way to Sanford for Auto Train engineers training. The 819, 262 and 312 were sent to Mobile where they were cut up for scrap.


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## X996 (Jan 15, 2014)

Off topic, is there anybody from the RAILROAD.NET forum here ?

My recently created account and posts were all deleted without any notice, is it a common practice in that forum ??

I am sure it has something to see with the fact I posted some photos of the wrecked engines but I've never seen this kind of manner before.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 15, 2014)

X996 said:


> Off topic, is there anybody from the RAILROAD.NET forum here ?
> 
> My recently created account and posts were all deleted without any notice, is it a common practice in that forum ??
> 
> I am sure it has something to see with the fact I posted some photos of the wrecked engines but I've never seen this kind of manner before.


Sorry to hear about that. BTW, where did you find that amazing photo of 819 being lifted out of the mud? I provided a link, but since all your stuff there has been deleted, no one can see it anyone. I said it earlier but I will say again, that picture speaks 1000 words.


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## Ryan (Jan 15, 2014)

X996 said:


> Off topic, is there anybody from the RAILROAD.NET forum here ?
> 
> My recently created account and posts were all deleted without any notice, is it a common practice in that forum ??
> 
> I am sure it has something to see with the fact I posted some photos of the wrecked engines but I've never seen this kind of manner before.


Yes. RR.net sucks. The mods staff is ridiculously over the top heavy handed.
I occasionally browse the 2 Washington area commuter forums (MARC/VRE and WMATA) because there's some good info there (John Cambron posts some AWESOME WMATA-related content), but the rest of the place is a barren wasteland of hyper-moderated threads policed by a moderation staff with an overinflated sense of self importance.


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## X996 (Jan 16, 2014)

RyanS said:


> RR.net sucks.


Yes, it does.   



bgiaquin said:


> Sorry to hear about that. BTW, where did you find that amazing photo of 819 being lifted out of the mud? I provided a link, but since all your stuff there has been deleted, no one can see it anyone. I said it earlier but I will say again, that picture speaks 1000 words.


Thanks for your words.

I still can't believe how they (RR) handle my "case", I can understand the subject of my thread (the same as this one) could have shocked as well as the photos I posted (they show the violence and the horror of this accident) but what a rudeness to erase, as they did, my profile and posts !

*** This a message addressed to the administrators and moderators of this forum : if you think this thread and the photos attached to it are not appropriate, please do not hesitate to contact me, I'll remove them without delay. ***

About the photos, I found them quite a long time ago now so I unfortunately do not remember their source. I cannot credit them...:-(

(Except the last one that is credited.)

Here are they again, on this forum this time, for those who did not see them.


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## Ryan (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for sharing these - the first picture is just utterly mind boggling.

I can't wrap my head around the lead locomotive getting driven that far into the riverbank.

(it also looks like the slide was scanned in reverse, the writing is wrong)


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## Hytec (Jan 16, 2014)

I don't believe it has been mentioned why the approach and final signals were still showing green after the barge had struck the bridge, if so I apologize.

When the barge struck the bridge, it pushed the rails out of alignment by about 38" (if I remember correctly), but did not break the rails. This meant that the electrical circuit controlling the signals was still connected which allowed the approach and final signals to remain green. If either rail had been broken, the electrical circuit controlling the signals would have been disconnected, and all signals would have gone to red immediately in plenty of time for the train to have been stopped.


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## X996 (Jan 16, 2014)

RyanS said:


> it also looks like the slide was scanned in reverse, the writing is wrong


Yes, you're right, Ryan.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 16, 2014)

There was also a photo I saw on the "Death On The Bayou" episode of "Crash Files: Inside the NTSB". In addition to second photo posted by X996, it also showed a picture from INSIDE the cab of one of the locomotives. It is hard to tell whether it is an F40 cab or a P40 cab, but it is another shocking picture nevertheless. It is a very good documentary, and if anyone is interested in watching it, go to YouTube and search "Death on the Bayou Crash Files Inside the NTSB.


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## X996 (Jan 16, 2014)

Hi,

I watched this doc quite recently but I do not remember having seen any photo from inside a cab, could you tell me when is it in this documentary ?

It is in this very interesting tv report that one can see never seen before view of the #312 half submerged in the river.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 16, 2014)

Search the doc on YouTube, click on it, then skip to 30:23 and pause the video.


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## X996 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks.

Found it, regarding the shape of the roof, I'd say it is one of the F40 cab, no ?


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## bgiaquin (Jan 16, 2014)

X996 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Found it, regarding the shape of the roof, I'd say it is one of the F40 cab, no ?
> 
> ...


Yes. Only question is, which one?


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## X996 (Jan 16, 2014)

If it is the one that is laid on its right side on the barge, it should be the #312.


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## bgiaquin (Jan 16, 2014)

X996 said:


> If it is the one that is laid on its right side on the barge, it should be the #312.


Okay Thanks.


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## RailRide (Jan 16, 2014)

CREW DORM #2524 said:


> The 819 made a few trips on 58/59 to Chicago as well as 19/20 to DC. *It was on the way to Sanford for Auto Train engineers training*. The 819, 262 and 312 were sent to Mobile where they were cut up for scrap.


Emphasis mine...and double bizarro:

Some time back there was a report of a documentary series, reputed to be_ Forensic Files_, doing an episode on this wreck, and used O Gauge models in a diorama to re-create the accident as it unfolded (it was remarked that the O-Gauge equipment held up well to the repeated simulated wrecks). I never found any proof of this, however. None of the episode guides for the series mentioned any train wrecks. Maybe I didn't look hard enough.

Some years later (2011?) I embarked on a project to build an O Gauge approximation of the Amtrak Auto Train. I couldn't re-create it car-for car (technically possible, but not enough room or amps to do it) but was able to assemble 9 Superliners and 12 autoracks. The Genesis locomotives weren't available in the "wave" scheme, save for a limited edition made by MTH for Walthers, so the four Phase III units I had were sent to a custom painter. The two MTH units were numbered according to the numbers cast into their number boards. The Williams units, only having painted number boards, were renumbered according to whatever numerals the custom painter had left.

One of them by pure coincidence was redecorated into the 819, pictured in this RR.net thread  (second page) about models whose prototypes were involved in accidents (I wasn't aware 819 was in the wreck till someone pointed it out after I posted photos to the _O Gauge Railroading _forum). What I didn't know at the time was that of the four repainted locomotives, this particular unit would have wound up assigned to my model _Auto-Train _since Williams sells power kits to install in it's non-powered locomotives, and I bought one of these this past fall in order to upgrade the non-powered Williams unit so I could have a four motored consist to pull the train. Up till today, I had no idea that the real 819 would actually have been in A-T service had it not been in the wreck.

---PCJ


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## X996 (Jan 16, 2014)

Never watched this one but after a quick search the episode of Forensic Files about the Big Bayou Canot accident is "Visibility Zero", supposedly an episode of the 8th season.


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## CREW DORM#2524 (Jan 17, 2014)

The in-cab screenshot is the 312. The one on its side is the 262. Look thru the engineers windshield in that picture, there is no back wall or EC panel as in the in cab screenshot.


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## X996 (Jan 17, 2014)

Yes you're right, the F40 on its left side is the #262.

I was talking about the locomotive that can be seen in the TV doc, next to the Genesis on the recovery barge. It is the #312 (no doubt as the numbers, not destroyed by the fire, are still visible).


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## Braniff747SP (Jan 18, 2014)

Here's the direct link to the NTSB report. (It's a PDF.)

http://ntl1.specialcollection.net/scripts/ws.dll?file&fn=6&name=S%3A%5CDOT_56GB%5CRailroad%5CWEBSEARCH%5CRAR-94-01.pdf


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