# Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 Coming January 2016



## Paulus

_Admin note: This topic was started Wednesday evening (8/12). It was temporarily hidden while the staff determined if the information was correct and whether the linked presentation was public or inappropriately leaked from within Amtrak. We are satisfied in both areas, and the topic is now open for discussion._

Source



> Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 will be simplified
> Improve program relevance across the country:
> Eliminate the travel award zone chart by aligning redemption point requirements with fares.
> Amtrak Guest Rewards members will be able to book, modify, and cancel reward tickets themselves on Amtrak.com or mobile.
> Make the program more relevant and attainable to more audiences by making both earning and redemption a function of price.
> 
> The program re-launch will be announced August 31 via email with information and details on the program website.
> 
> After 15 years, even the most well oiled machine could benefit from a little tune-up. Introducing the next stop for Amtrak Guest Rewards, where earning points is simpler, building them up is surer, and redeeming them is easier. In short, its everything youve always loved only better engineered to fit your life.


No more blackout dates or times



> The Amtrak Guest Rewards team will launch two new co-brand credit card products on September 12, 2015 with a new issuing bank.
> Business Goal: Re-launch higher value AGR co-branded credit cards, driving member engagement and long term growth in AGR revenue.
> The AGR co-brand credit card drives:
> Brand attachment- Through expanded AGR rewards and benefits, new cardholders
> grow their loyalty with AGR and deepen their affinity with the Amtrak brand
> Increased Amtrak travel- Annual lifts increase by 49% and rail revenue increases by 33% after a member acquires a credit card
> Revenue- Amtrak will benefit from the partnership through a revenue share model.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Looks like the Source link in the OP has a lot of other interesting Amtrak stuff. Check it out.


----------



## newlatidude

It appears that a revamped "AGR 2.0" will be launching on 31 August for travel after the new year. The biggest change, IMHO, will be that the Zones are gone and the points needed for a redemption will be based upon the regular ticket price - i.e., revenue-based redemptions as some airlines are migrating towards in their frequent flyer programs.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25262879-post1.html

Also there will be two versions of the new AGR MasterCard. As pointed out in another FlyerTalk thread, the sample name on the pictures of the credit cards is "Chris L Martin" which is what Bank of America always uses in their samples (appears the CC number matches BoA's sample too). New cards to launch on 12 Sep.


----------



## printman2000

I have ALWAYS saved my Chase UR points to use with AGR mostly because they were the best value. With this new system, I worry they will become way less valuable.

Do you think it will be a set amount for a route or will the points increase as the current price increases?


----------



## Train2104

I'm just hoping that my $412 investment in buy points doesn't lose most or all of its value.


----------



## jis

Shouldn't it be 3.0? As I recall we already did one transition in the past when we changed to Chase, no? Or maybe we keep doing 2.0 over and over again until we get it right?  

BTW, that card number on the sample card is just a number which may not have anything to do with the actual bin from which the new cards willg et their number. I did a bindb search and found this:



> bin: 541275
> Issuing bank: Opt Plus Issued by All Trans Financial Services CU
> Card Type: Debit
> Card Level: Prepaid
> ISO Country Name: Canada
> Bank's website: www.optpluscard.ca


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> Shouldn't it be 3.0? As I recall we already did one transition in the past when we changed to Chase, no? Or maybe we keep doing 2.0 over and over again until we get it right?


I think AGR 2.0 as it relates to the points and redemption system. As I recall, this will be AGR Credit Card version 3.


----------



## printman2000

jis said:


> Shouldn't it be 3.0? As I recall we already did one transition in the past when we changed to Chase, no? Or maybe we keep doing 2.0 over and over again until we get it right?


Well, I bleieve the 2.0 refers to the AGR program, not the credit cards. As far as I remember, the program itself did not change with the switch to Chase.

[Edit] Looks like PRR 60 and I were posting the same thing at the same time.[Edit]


----------



## abcnews

So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?


----------



## printman2000

abcnews said:


> So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?


That is what is sounds like. Points will be based off of how much your trip costs.

Still don't know if that will be low bucket cost or current bucket cost.


----------



## abcnews

It will be interesting to see the new plan. I will admit that often my Amtrak trips are rather short in nature - Like DC to Chicago, or Richmond to Florida or Ashland to NYC, and the points seem to better benefit those long runs across the western states - and I love those routes too. But it's harder for me to take off a week for a trip across the continent. I will miss that aspect.


----------



## jis

I wish that the AGR 2.0 would allow me to do points and dollars upgrades from a purchased base Coach ticket, like many airlines allow. That way you get to accrue some points on each trip while you can upgrade to upper class usually for less than what it would normally cost.

These day, on airlines, I almost always go the upgrade route instead of a pure free ticket route so as to collect the EQM and lifetime BIS miles to get lifetime status, something that I would not accrue if I did not pay at least something for the ticket. Of course AGR does not have the concept of lifetime miles based lifetime status thing at all.


----------



## Train2104

jis said:


> I wish that the AGR 2.0 would allow me to do points and dollars upgrades from a purchased base Coach ticket, like many airlines allow. That way you get to accrue some points on each trip while you can upgrade to upper class usually for less than what it would normally cost.
> 
> These day, on airlines, I almost always go the upgrade route instead of a pure free ticket route so as to collect the EQM and lifetime BIS miles to get lifetime status, something that I would not accrue if I did not pay at least something for the ticket. Of course AGR does not have the concept of lifetime miles based lifetime status thing at all.


This may be coming - note that in the "new for 2016" screenshot on page 30 "POINTS + CASH" is one of the options.



printman2000 said:


> abcnews said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is sounds like. Points will be based off of how much your trip costs.
> 
> Still don't know if that will be low bucket cost or current bucket cost.
Click to expand...

Probably current bucket cost, since that's the only way to do it while removing blackout dates.

The 3 year expiration clause also seems to be history.


----------



## TinCan782

printman2000 said:


> abcnews said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is sounds like. Points will be based off of how much your trip costs.
> Still don't know if that will be low bucket cost or current bucket cost.
Click to expand...

Wondering the same thing...will the points "expenditure" fluctuate with the current bucket cost at the time of booking? I always enjoyed booking and paying with points without being concerned with the bucket.


----------



## jebr

I would imagine it will reflect current-bucket pricing, much like Southwest's Rapid Rewards does.

This will be interesting to see. If the 100-point minimum goes away, that could be the end of "points runs" for most people (which was always a good excuse to take the train anyways, and much of the time I am taking a trip that I want to take for the destination as well.) I'm hoping that it would be somewhere a bit below a 20:$1 redemption (20 points = $1 in redemption value.) A 20:$1 redemption value would put a two zone roomette at $500, which seems a bit low but not out of the ballpark (a roomette MSP - WAS on 8 to 30 is $414 for one person, $576 for two people.) It will get rid of most of the longer routes and really great redemptions, which is disappointing, but if implemented to work on any pair and tied to bucket price could open up point use on some shorter trips.


----------



## abcnews

And some of us may start looking at trips differently, like maybe ride in coach seats for a portion of a trip - and a roomette or bedroom when the situation merits using the points.

I have often thought of traveling across the US and stoping along the way. The old zone award system kind of discouraged that - unless you stopped at one of the border cities like Denver or El Paso.


----------



## Railroad Bill

My interest at this point is in the transfer of points from Chase cards to the new cards.

Since we have a big trip planned next week that could result in lots of Chase Sapphire UR points, I am hopeful that those points will still be available to send to AGR. My payment date is around Sept 8 which is when the points would be credited. Trying to make sure I am around the thousand point increments so I can maximize the transfer before Chase goes away.

We do not fly and few of the hotel choices on Sapphire are useful as well, so it was a bummer to learn that our $95 fee may go for naught the remainder of the year.


----------



## rrdude

jebr said:


> I would imagine it will reflect current-bucket pricing, much like Southwest's Rapid Rewards does.
> 
> This will be interesting to see. If the 100-point minimum goes away, that could be the end of "points runs" for most people (which was always a good excuse to take the train anyways, and much of the time I am taking a trip that I want to take for the destination as well.) I'm hoping that it would be somewhere a bit below a 20:$1 redemption (20 points = $1 in redemption value.) A 20:$1 redemption value would put a two zone roomette at $500, which seems a bit low but not out of the ballpark (a roomette MSP - WAS on 8 to 30 is $414 for one person, $576 for two people.) It will get rid of most of the longer routes and really great redemptions, which is disappointing, but if implemented to work on any pair and tied to bucket price could open up point use on some shorter trips.


Agree with jebr: I think it will look, BUT THIS IS ONLY A GUESS, and an UN-EDUCATED GUESS. I have no, zero, nada, intel from Amtrak, or any source. This is just my old-fart opinion.

How Southwest Airlines manages their "point system".

Sooooo, "BURN YOUR POINTS NOW"


----------



## Ispolkom

It's been a nice run, but all good things must end.

I think that *jebr *is too optimistic about the future exchange rate. A five cents per point redemption rate won't work if you can buy points for less than that. Two cents per point seems more likely, or even lower. I think that we're looking at a major devaluation for sleeper redemptions, so I plan to use up my points under the old dispensation.

I imagine, though, that after I burn my points I will use Amtrak less. Late trains, increasingly decrepit Superliners, less choice in the dining car, inconsistent customer service (except for conductors, who are consistently rude), and now this devaluation make other modes of travel more tolerable to me. I'm sure that is fine with Amtrak. I've never been a particularly valuable customer.


----------



## calwatch

For comparison, Southwest's point value is roughly 1.6 cents per point. Also, there's nothing saying that different rates could be applied to different trip types. So redemptions on sleepers could be more valuable than coach redemptions, especially if sleeper redemptions drop like a rock after this change and roomettes are going out empty. (On the other hand, since bedrooms rarely go out empty, the value for those should drop.)


----------



## Train2104

calwatch said:


> For comparison, Southwest's point value is roughly 1.6 cents per point. Also, there's nothing saying that different rates could be applied to different trip types. So redemptions on sleepers could be more valuable than coach redemptions, especially if sleeper redemptions drop like a rock after this change and roomettes are going out empty. (On the other hand, since bedrooms rarely go out empty, the value for those should drop.)


Do we have any idea how much of sleeper travel is redemption travel?


----------



## jis

In my personal travel this year, about 30% of my sleeper travel has been redemption.

For the_traveler it is always 120%


----------



## Bob Dylan

"..Turn out the lights, the parties over, they say that all good things must end.."

There's lots of posts all over the various Rail sites, blogs and Facebook.

I have it on pretty good authority that the 2 New Cards will be Bank of America Master Cards.

I would think that it is an excellent idea for those with a cache of points to book their Award trips ASAP before the Devaluation from AGR II kicks in which is Jan of 2016.

It will be interesting to read the corporate speak and boilerplate that will try to explain how much better the system will be to enhance our customers travel expierence yada yada blah blah ad nauseum!

I don't like this and I'm not certain I'll even apply for the new Card, I may just keep my Chase Cards. I do know I won't be taking as many trips in Amtrak, whether point runs or LD Trips!

I understand Amtrak's need for revenue and lightning up loopholes but making it more expensive for loyal members out in flyover country is not enhancing our expierences on Amtrak!

This should become a Long and interesting thread as all details emerge, I have the downloaded PDF file from LOSSAN ( 32 pages) and it doesn't look good for us IMHO!!

I'm from Missouri, Show Me!!!!


----------



## Train2104

jimhudson said:


> It will be interesting to read the corporate speak and boilerplate that will try to explain how much better the system will be to enhance our customers travel expierence yada yada blah blah ad nauseum!


I wonder if it will actually be better when it comes to shorter trips (NYP-PGH, NYP-WAS). I have a feeling it will.


----------



## PRR 60

Until we see details of the proposed points:dollar ratios for redemptions, we don't really know if this is a good deal or a bad deal. We can sure guess which way it will go, but we do not know for sure. It will certainly have an impact on those who enjoyed putting together a one or two zone meandering sleeper adventure, but it could actually help someone who lives in an area like Pittsburgh where even a mid-length trip to Chicago or Minneapolis required two zones.

There will be winners and losers. We just don't know how many of each.


----------



## Train2104

PRR 60 said:


> Until we see details of the proposed points:dollar ratios for redemptions, we don't really know if this is a good deal or a bad deal. We can sure guess which way it will go, but we do not know for sure. It will certainly have an impact on those who enjoyed putting together a one or two zone meandering sleeper adventure, but it could actually help someone who lives in an area like Pittsburgh where even a mid-length trip to Chicago or Minneapolis required two zones.
> 
> There will be winners and losers. We just don't know how many of each.


And there's another variable that can be changed - points earned per dollar spent. Both VIA and the airlines do this, giving you 4 or 5 or more points per dollar spent on premium accommodations...


----------



## jebr

That being said, the lowest fare on Southwest (WGA) earns six points per dollar spent. Higher fares earn more points per dollar.

It's possible that AGR will re-work the points earned per dollar of travel, but I don't see Amtrak going too much lower than a "ten cent value" per dollar spent on Amtrak travel, especially for sleeper, business, and first class. Saver fares may have a lower points earning ratio. Credit cards will almost certainly have a lower earning value on general spend than they do now, which may mean a shift in my credit card use habits.


----------



## jis

Train2104 said:


> And there's another variable that can be changed - points earned per dollar spent. Both VIA and the airlines do this, giving you 4 or 5 or more points per dollar spent on premium accommodations...


Also based on status.
If they don't go below 10c per point on redemption then I guess the point purchase bonanzas of yore a re history too.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ispolkom said:


> It's been a nice run, but all good things must end. I imagine, though, that after I burn my points I will use Amtrak less. Late trains, increasingly decrepit Superliners, less choice in the dining car, inconsistent customer service (except for conductors, who are consistently rude), and now this devaluation make other modes of travel more tolerable to me. I'm sure that is fine with Amtrak. I've never been a particularly valuable customer.


Same here. Best of luck to Amtrak but with prices marching up and service sliding down I'm finding it harder and harder to include them in my trip planning. A big AGR devaluation on top of that would only make it that much easier to move on.



PRR 60 said:


> Until we see details of the proposed points:dollar ratios for redemptions, we don't really know if this is a good deal or a bad deal. We can sure guess which way it will go, but we do not know for sure. It will certainly have an impact on those who enjoyed putting together a one or two zone meandering sleeper adventure, but it could actually help someone who lives in an area like Pittsburgh where even a mid-length trip to Chicago or Minneapolis required two zones. There will be winners and losers. We just don't know how many of each.


I think we can safely assume that while there are likely to be new sweet spots the net impact is likely to be negative. I've yet to see a major loyalty program change that was objectively net positive or even net neutral. My advice is to spend your fiat points now and refocus on growing some fiat currencies instead. At least in that case you can sometimes come out ahead of the game.


----------



## printman2000

Ispolkom said:


> It's been a nice run, but all good things must end.
> 
> I think that *jebr *is too optimistic about the future exchange rate. A five cents per point redemption rate won't work if you can buy points for less than that. Two cents per point seems more likely, or even lower. I think that we're looking at a major devaluation for sleeper redemptions, so I plan to use up my points under the old dispensation.
> 
> I imagine, though, that after I burn my points I will use Amtrak less. Late trains, increasingly decrepit Superliners, less choice in the dining car, inconsistent customer service (except for conductors, who are consistently rude), and now this devaluation make other modes of travel more tolerable to me. I'm sure that is fine with Amtrak. I've never been a particularly valuable customer.


I am feeling the same way.


----------



## City of Miami

I wonder if we'll have a phase in period to make future reservations at the current rate (burn points :help: ) like there was when the bedroom redemption rate went up.

I also wonder what "higher value AGR co-branded credit card" means. Does that mean annual fee?


----------



## jebr

After further speculation in my head (which is all I have  ) both earning and redemption will have a higher point value/cost - for example, a point may be able to be redeemed for 50 points/$1, but a person will earn 5 points per dollar spent on Amtrak. The opportunity cost of buying points will almost certainly be diminished to almost zero (maybe with some bonuses nice to get a few extra points to round out a redemption, but certainly not like it is today where buying all the points for a redemption is cheaper than paying cash for it.)

I can dream that they will "rebalance" the accounts to something better if points are devalued a significant amount, but we shall see how much that dream plays out.


----------



## Bob Dylan

City of Miami said:


> I wonder if we'll have a phase in period to make future reservations at the current rate (burn points :help: ) like there was when the bedroom redemption rate went up.
> 
> I also wonder what "higher value AGR co-branded credit card" means. Does that mean annual fee?


You have till Dec 31 of 2015 for sure., Since the New AGR II kicks in Jan 2016 well see???

Yep on the Credit Cards, there will be 2 types,and almost certain to be from BOA!!!


----------



## City of Miami

Looks like DA's grim warnings will be vindicated. He told us so!

Amtrak is gradually eliminating ways to screw the system [e.g., taking a $3000 trip for the point equivalent of $400] which we rail fans have enjoyed for years. It's the American way.


----------



## jis

All so called improvements in these loyalty plans are usually improvement from the perspective of the vendor and not from the perspective of the consumer. The marketing sugarcoating that it comes with is interesting to watch. But basically each has to figure out their own niche in the new eco-system to make it work the best for them, or worst case just abandon the whole thing.

I have managed to find myself a useable niche within the new United Mileage Plus eco-system, which for me is not too horrible compared to the pre-change eco-system. Hopefully I will be able to find such in the new AGR II eco-system too.

Due to my otherwise changing circumstances, I am already reducing my use of Amtrak to about half of what it was last year, and will have to make an effort to make Select+. Basically not living within a 50 mile perimeter of any Amtrak station, and said station having only two trains a day each way, has such an effect. This proposed change now puts into question whether I should even bother. I hope they come out with details sooner rather than later.


----------



## Anderson

On the one hand, from a management perspective I understand the reasoning behind the changes. Quite a bit about this makes sense from a whole slew of perspectives, and in some respects this was probably overdue.

On the other hand, while I know that the talk of "improving value" an so forth is boilerplate...assuming a devaluation to around $.02/point, I find it hard not to take it personally when someone mentions that they are _improving_ a program by _removing _the best aspects of it. I wouldn't be put off by a blunt announcement to the effect of "Look, this is costing us too much versus what it is "supposed" to cost us due to some of those loophole trips", but trying to BS-speak their way through this one...honestly, I'm inclined to post a public rant on FT followed by a PM to AGRInsider saying "Look, this really isn't personal and please don't take it that way".

I'll probably still end up knocking my way to SE, but while I intend to get the new CC...it may literally become an "Amtrak only" card with my Virgin card (or even my Citi cash back card) taking most of the load. That being said...I'm actually sorely tempted to not bother with SE and just cash out a huge number of my points throughout the rest of the year...and I know I'm probably not the only one looking at that. I think the big question comes with those upgrade cards...if there ends up being some way to cash them (or whatever replaces them) in for something on the LD trains, that's the only way I can _actually_ see something substantially positive coming out of this pile.


----------



## alben

[SIZE=13.3333330154419px]Marketing speak is such an insult to our intelligence. Revenue based. Translation: rewards program gutted.[/SIZE]
End of the tracks for the long distance sleeper rewards at a great point value.
I'll get the new Bank of America AGR credit cards (personal and business cards) when they become available (if they have high enough of a sign-up bonus), make the minimum spend, use the points to make reservations before Jan 1, and sock drawer the cards.
Time to work on airline and hotel points instead.


----------



## jis

All the airline and hotel cards have exactly the same issues. They are no walk in the park either.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

alben said:


> Marketing speak is such an insult to our intelligence. Revenue based. Translation: rewards program gutted.
> 
> End of the tracks for the long distance sleeper rewards at a great point value.
> 
> I'll get the new Bank of America AGR credit cards (personal and business cards) when they become available (if they have high enough of a sign-up bonus), make the minimum spend, use the points to make reservations before Jan 1, and sock drawer the cards.
> 
> *Time to work on airline and hotel points instead.*


So far as I can tell the're all heading in the same basic direction.


----------



## calwatch

It's an interesting precedent to see what other revenue based programs are in terms of redemption values. They are generally in the 5-12% rebate category - Southwest is roughly at 10%, JetBlue at 9%, and hotel programs are in the 5-8% range (although they aren't true cost based redemptions, the categories for hotels roughly correspond to their regular pricing). 


Remember AGR has always been revenue based for earning - 2 points for each dollar spent with the 100 point minimum. This simply aligns burning to be similar to earning. I would expect that premium AGR members to get better redemption values, and paying the annual fee for the platinum credit card will probably grant you select or select+ status similar to airline and hotel premium cards. Even on Southwest there are sweet spots (i.e., using the Companion Pass and always redeeming for the cheapest fare, which has a higher value per point), but they are not as good as a fixed value redemption system.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

calwatch said:


> This simply aligns burning to be similar to earning.[/size]


That's precisely the problem. The ability to arbitrage was the key to making use of AGR. Soon it will be little more than generic rebate system. Kind of like a cash back card, but with a lower opportunity value and more restrictions on use.



calwatch said:


> I would expect that premium AGR members to get better redemption values, and paying the annual fee for the platinum credit card will probably grant you select or select+ status similar to airline and hotel premium cards.


I'm not aware of any airline cards which grant genuine status. Instead they grant some sort of imaginary status that is still trumped by the lowest actual status tier. There are a couple hotel cards which grant actual status, but we're talking about the lowest tiers which already struggle to remain relevant no matter how you earned them. Even cards with annual fees of several hundred dollars are struggling to remain relevant in today's heavily diluted loyalty market.



calwatch said:


> Even on Southwest there are sweet spots (i.e., using the Companion Pass and always redeeming for the cheapest fare, which has a higher value per point), but they are not as good as a fixed value redemption system.


The Companion Pass is a great tool but we should keep in mind that it's a holdover from the OLD Rapid Rewards system. It is not a new sweet spot that came about recently and over a long enough timeline it too will be devalued.


----------



## jis

As for the new CC, I need to see what it comes with, the bold and the fine print, before I decide.

If it is a BofA card, then it will be my first. So at least no one will try to reduce my line of credit on some other card.  Although somehow that did not seem to be an issue when Chase gave me the Marriott Reward Visa, but they created a big stink when they gave me the original United Explorer or whatever the heck it was called card.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I've surprised by that jis since you're a frequent World Traveler for Business and pleasure with a stable job!. ( and I know you're not on Food stamps since you lived in High Buck Jersey and moved to Florida. )

I have two Chase Cards and never had any hassle with Chase.(and used to have an AMEX when I traveled all the time back in the day!)

Now I am retired and have good Credit but a Small Fixed Income.

I still get unwanted offers and solicitations from Financial Institutions all the time, and they go straight into the shredder!

I too will look closely @ the offer, but it would have to be worth it to take their Card. For sure I'll keep ,@ least One Chase Card even if I do get one of the new BOA AGR Cards.( Annual Fees do nothing for me as little as I travel now!)


----------



## SanDiegan

It's probably another plot to benefit the NEC


----------



## Anderson

I've worked up a bit of a tirade that I'm going to put up over on FT, but...the more I think about it, I'm split between three options on the card:
(1) Get the card, use the same as now.

(2) Get the card, milk for the bonus, only use strictly for Amtrak travel.

(3) Don't get the card.

Amid the overhaul, I've come to the pained conclusion that a straight cash-back-with-2%-on-travel card might be a better deal for me if we end up with some sort of 1.5x card in a gutted AGR.


----------



## SteveSFL

I thought one post mentioned the new program would start Sept 1, 2015 for redemptions after Jan 1, 2016. Any speculation on if redemptions for travel next year would need to be redeemed before Sept 1, 2015 to be under the new program?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> I've worked up a bit of a tirade that I'm going to put up over on FT, but...the more I think about it, I'm split between three options on the card:
> 
> (1) Get the card, use the same as now.
> 
> (2) Get the card, milk for the bonus, only use strictly for Amtrak travel.
> 
> (3) Don't get the card.


(4) Get the card, unlock the bonus, remit full payment, shred and toss card, close the credit line at eleven month mark.



Anderson said:


> Amid the overhaul, I've come to the pained conclusion that a straight cash-back-with-2%-on-travel card might be a better deal for me if we end up with some sort of 1.5x card in a gutted AGR.


I would agree that at this point cash based kickback cards seem to be the best overall option. The monkey point program cards are only useful for unlocking the humongous signup bonus and then trashing.


----------



## Ryan

Call me crazy, but I'm going to wait until we know a little bit more (like earning and redeeming rates) before passing judgement.

I agree that on net, it'll be a better deal for the company and that the super good deal of a last minute, high dollar bedroom for cheap on points are probably gone, but there will probably be some places where there is still a good deal to be had.


----------



## SteveSFL

I like the part about being able to self-book online, but I'll believe that when I see it!


----------



## BCL

All I know is that the 100-point minimum per segment did kind of influence me to work over the system even if I didn't outright game it. That RIC-EMY-SFC trip with my kid was a little more than taking BART, but my kid loves trains. I liked the EMY-OKJ-GAC trip because it started later, I could grab coffee at Blue Bottle, and I got 100 more points. And apply the Levi's Stadium discount.

I'd like to see the document, but it's apparently been wiped from the OCTA server. So LOSSAN is using the OCTA servers to host their stuff? They're the joint powers authority that operates the Pacific Surfliner, right?


----------



## calwatch

OCTA is the Managing Agency for LOSSAN, replacing SANDAG (San Diego Association of Governments) a couple of years ago. They were seen as a compromise between the warring factions of San Diego MTS and LACMTA (Metro) and were better supported by the northern counties as a centrally located agency without the bureaucracy of Metro.

The PowerPoint has been revised with a benign statement now. More importantly, it drops the "and is getting better" from the header of the slide, as it is not getting better for the vast majority of customers.

_Amtrak Guest Rewards will continue to grow in importance_

_– Amtrak Guest Rewards members will soon have more flexibility in earnings and redemptions, and_

_– Be able to book, modify, and cancel reward tickets themselves on Amtrak.com or mobile._

As the LOSSAN board is a public board and meets at the MTA Building in Downtown Los Angeles, you should be able to call 213-922-6045 at 12:30 pm Pacific and listen to the meeting and the presentation.


----------



## Anderson

Ok, a bit more analysis on this:
I'm probably going to take a wait-and-see attitude on this, but I'm going to say that it is a not-favorable wait-and-see attitude. That being said, I've got deep reservations about this:
(1) The best we can hope for is status quo, and the way this is being carried out reeks of it being a major devaluation.
(2) Operating with the presumption of it as a functional devaluation (it is stunningly rare to see a major "tune-up" [1] of a program without an attached devaluation), it is VERY disturbing to see the timing on this. The devaluation was set to be announced on August 31; there is presently an ongoing "buy points special" which expires on August 23. I cannot help but view the timing as suspect there, particularly since it is unlikely that this overhaul has NOT been in the works for at least a few weeks.
(3) Also operating with the presumption of a functional devaluation, Marketing really needs to rein in their dressing-up of these changes [2]. Calling this a "tune-up" of a program that I believe the vast majority of members would consider adequate-to-excellent (and which, speculation being what it is, will likely be a net loss for most or all members) is a classic case of "putting lipstick on a pig", as the phrase often goes, and it appears transparently so in light of other developments in the travel industry as of late (e.g. Delta's SkyMiles changes). The changes are likely to be unpleasant; saccharine-coating them in positive-sounding euphemisms is likely to make the more jaded of us ignore any positive elements of the change out of cynical experience.

I would further point out that, at least from my perspective, the program as it stands is extremely simple, straightforward, and accessible. From what little that can be gleaned from the documents we have seen, the changes do not seem set to improve it on these grounds (particularly considering the low cost of many "special train" coach awards) as awards will likely be more expensive in all but the cheapest cases (e.g. St. Louis-Alton). Yes, some of this may vary based on the nature of the new redemption costs...but experience elsewhere says that said costs will likely come out worse in all but a few cases. Eliminating blackout dates doesn't do much (blackouts were a marginal element of the program for the most part) while point expiry has mostly been a non-issue.

The credit cards likewise earn a wait-and-see attitude...there are too many terms and benefits to wonder about which may or may not apply. While I can say that I will almost assuredly be setting aside my present AGR card if/when it ceases to offer AGR points (or transferrable points), but beyond that I'm looking at this with trepidation in light of everything else going on.

[1] Based on the mentions of likely doubling-to-quadrupling of redemption prices (over on FT), a word other than "tune" is coming to mind to describe this. Were I to take my car in for a "tune up" and find that my fuel efficiency had dropped by this much the odds are that the mechanic and I would be meeting one another in court.

[2] Withdrawing "and getting better", as noted above, is a move in the right direction. Lord help me were I on the commission were I to hear of this as an "improvement"...let's just say that saying _that _in the face of a countervailing reality would be enough to cause me to burst out laughing from the dais.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

I will say that I don't expect the worst of FT's expectations to be borne out. What will probably happen is that, for example, advance-purchase Regional tickets will end up noticeably cheaper while last-minute tickets will end up noticeably more expensive. The net effect will be a loss, but I don't think it will necessarily be quite the massacre that everyone is expecting. Still...I'm expecting this to be bloody to the point that I would have preferred a non-trivial "straight" devaluation to the restructuring.


----------



## Anderson

Devil's Advocate said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've worked up a bit of a tirade that I'm going to put up over on FT, but...the more I think about it, I'm split between three options on the card:
> 
> (1) Get the card, use the same as now.
> 
> (2) Get the card, milk for the bonus, only use strictly for Amtrak travel.
> 
> (3) Don't get the card.
> 
> 
> 
> (4) Get the card, unlock the bonus, remit full payment, shred and toss card, close the credit line at eleven month mark.
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amid the overhaul, I've come to the pained conclusion that a straight cash-back-with-2%-on-travel card might be a better deal for me if we end up with some sort of 1.5x card in a gutted AGR.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would agree that at this point cash based kickback cards seem to be the best overall option. The monkey point program cards are only useful for unlocking the humongous signup bonus and then trashing.
Click to expand...

If I cannot justify keeping the card for Amtrak purchases (which would imply a bad card _and_ a major wrecking of the program), I will probably not screw around with the bonus. There are plenty of other cards I can do a bonus chase with.


----------



## Dan O

Drat. I was planning an 80k point trip either next summer or the following one. Looks like that may be in jeopardy. Last two long distance train trips I have taken were with my kids and using sleepers at 40k for 2 zone RTs.I can earn a 2 zone RT now in 2-3 yrs. If it goes to 5 yrs or more I guess I wont be taking so many trips via Amtrak.

It is a lot easier to stomach late trains and less than ideal service when the trip was paid for using points.


----------



## newlatidude

City of Miami said:


> I wonder if we'll have a phase in period to make future reservations at the current rate (burn points :help: ) like there was when the bedroom redemption rate went up.
> 
> I also wonder what "higher value AGR co-branded credit card" means. Does that mean annual fee?


Bank of America dumped all of its no-annual-fee co-branded loyalty program cards a few years back IIRC. I think the only no-fee cards at BofA are ones that earn solely in BofA's own points program(s). The rest of the loyalty program co-brands are all annual-fee cards as far as I know. This isn't to say it's impossible for one of these AGR BofA cards to be no-annual-fee, but the odds aren't good. I'd be happy for this prediction to be wrong though!


----------



## PRR 60

Just having an annual fee does not make a card bad. It depends on what comes along with the card. If the card has a $95 annual fee, but offers a $100 Amtrak credit after a $5000 spend, two Club Acela passes, and two 12-hour upgrade coupons, wouldn't help offset the fee? Those are just examples, but that is the kind of perks that airline fee-based cards sometimes offer. I have two airline cards, pay fees for both, but in my opinion, i get a return in perks that more than offsets the fees. Today I'm going to book a trip to San Francisco and cash in a $99 companion round trip coupon provided by my AA card. It's a trip we would have taken anyway. The $300 savings on my wife's fare pays the annual card fee four times over.

With both the credit card and the redemption changes, until we know the details there is no way to claim this is a bad deal, a good deal, or maybe the same deal. Certainly experience with programs like AGR is that when programs are "enhanced," that typically means enhanced for the provider, not the member. Whether that conventional wisdom is also true here, we simply don't know yet.

AGR has been a good program run by good people. I'm willing to wait and see the details before I trash it.


----------



## Ryan

That's way too logical and rational, my friend. Break out the pitchforks and torches!!!


----------



## Blackwolf

Unfortunately, if AGR does go with Bank of America as their card provider, that will be the end of me having an AGR loyalty card in my wallet. I swore off BofA in 2006 after being seriously shafted by them, and have gone out of my way to avoid having any business relations with the company since. So I wait with some nervousness to hear the official news.

Kind of regretting the points purchase I made a month ago now, reading about the re-jiggering of AGR. Was planning on a RT Bedroom redemption between SAC and BOS in March, looks like that'll probably not happen now because I'm thinking the 120k points needed in the zone system will not be enough with the new fare-based system.


----------



## printman2000

Blackwolf said:


> Kind of regretting the points purchase I made a month ago now, reading about the re-jiggering of AGR. Was planning on a RT Bedroom redemption between SAC and BOS in March, looks like that'll probably not happen now because I'm thinking the 120k points needed in the zone system will not be enough with the new fare-based system.


From what I can tell, you will be able to do points travel under the current zone system up until January 2016. So if you BOOK before then, zones would be in effect.

Of course, this is speculation based on what I have read.


----------



## BCL

I guess it's wait and see for me. In my travels I have a grand total of one segment that earned more than 100 points, so the minimum points are what allowed me to attain status and amass points. However, the flat-rate redemption is often what kept me from using my points. I'd like to use my points for a short trip but get the sense that I'm wasting my points. Some would have questioned my use of 5500 points for an otherwise $130 SEA-EMY ticket as being a poor use of those points.

A lot of rewards programs these days have a relationship between points cost and retail prices. It makes sense to most people, but I get how it rocks the boat with some people so used to trying to maximize the "value" of these points with the flat-rate zone redemptions and the special routes.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I will wait and see, too, primarily because I don't understand any of it! :huh:

One question I do have now, though: my Amtrak credit card expires quite a while after the changes--will they let me use the card as usual, or send me a replacement with whatever the new rules are?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I will wait and see, too, primarily because I don't understand any of it! :huh:
> 
> One question I do have now, though: my Amtrak credit card expires quite a while after the changes--will they let me use the card as usual, or send me a replacement with whatever the new rules are?


I suspect Chase will convert it to a "generic" Chase card.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

AmtrakBlue said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will wait and see, too, primarily because I don't understand any of it! :huh:
> 
> One question I do have now, though: my Amtrak credit card expires quite a while after the changes--will they let me use the card as usual, or send me a replacement with whatever the new rules are?
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect Chase will convert it to a "generic" Chase card.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see--thanks. That doesn't sound very exciting.


----------



## willem

PRR 60 said:


> Just having an annual fee does not make a card bad. It depends on what comes along with the card.


 Yes.



> If the card has a $95 annual fee, but offers a $100 Amtrak credit after a $5000 spend, two Club Acela passes, and two 12-hour upgrade coupons, wouldn't help offset the fee?


 For some, perhaps. But a $100 credit on a $95 fee is only a $5 benefit, Club Acela passes are rarely worth anything to me, and 12-hour upgrades are worthwhile less often than Club Acela passes (again, to me). So, I agreee that the fee is not a deal-breaker, but the perks you mention would not make a no-fee card worth it to me.



> AGR has been a good program run by good people. I'm willing to wait and see the details before I trash it.


 True, and I'm waiting.


----------



## William W.

A revenue-based redemption program is almost universally bad for high-dollar tickets. Just look at what is happening to Delta SkyMiles; some business class award tickets for next summer now cost 400K+ miles. As a DL frequent flyer (Gold Medallion), I've seen first-hand what the move to a revenue-based program looks like, and it's not pretty.

I'm pretty much done with Amtrak these days anyway (except for the occasional NEC trip), but I still have about 15K points that I need to find a way to burn. Maybe I can find one last LD sleeper trip that works with my schedule. I'm certainly never again going to pay cash for sleeper service, not with all the fare increases and service cuts. I've had my fill of late trains, deteriorating OBS, failing equipment, and sour employees.

Honestly, I'm surprised that it took Amtrak this long to change AGR. It has been one of the most lucrative award programs out there, and they certainly couldn't have been making money off of it. Name one other program that would allow you to redeem 20K points for a ticket that costs $1.5K+. I certainly can't.


----------



## Anderson

Dan O said:


> Drat. I was planning an 80k point trip either next summer or the following one. Looks like that may be in jeopardy. Last two long distance train trips I have taken were with my kids and using sleepers at 40k for 2 zone RTs.I can earn a 2 zone RT now in 2-3 yrs. If it goes to 5 yrs or more I guess I wont be taking so many trips via Amtrak.
> 
> It is a lot easier to stomach late trains and less than ideal service when the trip was paid for using points.


I obviously don't know how many points you have, but if you pull the trigger now you can lock the trip in at present rates.


----------



## BCL

Devil's Advocate said:


> calwatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> This simply aligns burning to be similar to earning.[/size]
> 
> 
> 
> That's precisely the problem. The ability to arbitrage was the key to making use of AGR. Soon it will be little more than generic rebate system. Kind of like a cash back card, but with a lower opportunity value and more restrictions on use.
Click to expand...

I don't know if "arbitrage" is the right way to describe it. I thought that arbitrage describes a price inefficiency where different markets value something differently. I'm not sure if a redemption quite qualifies. For example, I remember one collectible that I bought in bulk because the price was good. The seller was selling it considering the wholesale price he paid, which was before it became a limited commodity. Another dealer was selling it for considerably more, and I was told that his wholesale price had shot straight up. I bought a bunch of that collectible and turned around and sold them for a profit. Actually - I got credit which was even better since I was a regular customer and where he said since it was a trade his accountant said he didn't have to account for sales taxes.

Certainly there have been ways that "mileage plans" had been worked to death. I had a bunch of United MileagePlus miles from international trips. We weren't sure how to use them, and ended up applying them to four (partnered) Hawaiian Airlines inter island flights. I'm not sure if that was a terribly efficient way of using them, but we weren't going to be able to otherwise use those miles. There was also the 500 mile minimum for lots of these programs, as well as "segment" counts that could also lead to status upgrades. I remember United's SFO-OAK flight used to be popular at the end of the year since it counted as a segment and for the minimum miles. Some people would even take BART home from Oakland after collecting their 500 miles.

Sure it's a market inefficiency in a way. The current system appeals to a certain segment of Amtrak's customer base that wants to maximize individual transactions. However, we've seen how the redemption "costs" have gone up to account for the higher cost of doing business and the various ways to accumulate partner points. We've seen this with all sorts of loyalty programs. How much is a point or mile worth when it's so easy to get more points through secondary means?


----------



## BCL

William W. said:


> Honestly, I'm surprised that it took Amtrak this long to change AGR. It has been one of the most lucrative award programs out there, and they certainly couldn't have been making money off of it. Name one other program that would allow you to redeem 20K points for a ticket that costs $1.5K+. I certainly can't.


It kind of created a problem when a disproportionate number of passengers in sleepers weren't on revenue trips. Of course it was bound to create a reassessment of the system when the redemption costs weren't proportional to the retail price. The Southwest Rapids Rewards program has actually been pretty good. If you can find a good fare, you're going to be able to make your points go further. The current AGR system rewards the member for picking the trips with the most expensive retail prices, but debited via a flat-rate redemption.

And again, we can fall in love with all these "partner points" but in the end the ability to get points from different sources is going to effectively devalue what we have. In about 3 years, I don't think I collected more than maybe 1200 partner points through hotels and car rentals. Then I see all the talk about using shopping portals and whatnot, and I'm concerned that it's prompting Amtrak to devalue the points I have.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

In some ways AGR has become more than just a loyalty program. AGR has allowed many of us to travel in sleepers without paying absurd sums of money. I'm talking double or even triple the cost of a first class flight in some cases. If Amtrak changes AGR substantially then they may gain more immediate revenue but they'll also lose a lot of former supporters who can no longer justify the cost. I think deep down we always knew that in order for Amtrak to pacify their detractors they'd have to raise costs, reduce benefits, and curtail discounts to the point that many of us would no longer be able to participate directly. Perhaps that time has finally come.



PRR 60 said:


> Until we know the details there is no way to claim this is a bad deal, a good deal, or maybe the same deal.


I think we can reasonably assume it's not the same deal based on the information already available. Loyalty programs aren't like currency markets or commodity markets or real estate markets or equity markets or bond markets. Unlike _actual_ investments loyalty points only have one direction they can move. Over a long enough timeline all major loyalty points will eventually lose value due to inflationary pressures. Always. The best you can hope for is that acquiring more points becomes easier as the inherent value of points already in hand decreases. If we distill it down the positive minded folks are basically hoping that a massive increase in points earning opportunities and greatly increased redemption flexibility will be able to successfully counteract the next devaluation. Which is entirely possible, at least in the early going, but any positive counterweight is unlikely to be maintained at a positive ratio over time.



BCL said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> calwatch said:
> 
> 
> 
> This simply aligns burning to be similar to earning.[/size]
> 
> 
> 
> That's precisely the problem. The ability to arbitrage was the key to making use of AGR. Soon it will be little more than generic rebate system. Kind of like a cash back card, but with a lower opportunity value and more restrictions on use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know if "arbitrage" is the right way to describe it. I thought that arbitrage describes a price inefficiency where different markets value something differently. I'm not sure if a redemption quite qualifies.
Click to expand...

Strictly speaking it's not precisely arbitrage because...

1. It's not fully liquid

2. It's not instantaneous

3. It's not free of risk

I guess I could have said disparity or imbalance but the point was that the discrepancy itself was both the enabler and the motivator.


----------



## newlatidude

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I will wait and see, too, primarily because I don't understand any of it! :huh:
> 
> One question I do have now, though: my Amtrak credit card expires quite a while after the changes--will they let me use the card as usual, or send me a replacement with whatever the new rules are?


Your individual card expiration date has nothing to do with how long Chase will maintain the card as an AGR co-branded card. If Chase/AGR decide the party will end for existing Chase AGR cardholders on, say, 01 February 2016 then that's when a new card of some sort would take its place for all cardholders (unless you decline and just close the account) - regardless of whether the card in your wallet has a "12/2015" or a "04/2016" expiration date, for example.

It's hard to tell...in other similar loyalty program card situations over the years there have been a few instances where a losing bank kept its co-branded card for existing cardholders in place for quite a long time after new apps were no longer being accepted; and others where it ended pretty quickly after the switch.


----------



## benale

I don't quite understand this new system, but I have a feeling the great days of planning long distance trips with points are coming to an end. Two months ago we booked two two zone awards in a roomette using the longest routing Toledo-LAX via the Texas Eagle and LAX-Toledo using The Coast Starlight and The Empire Builder. I guess those days are over. I've used AGR points for many years. I now have built up 11,000 points and until I read this, I was anticipating doing point runs especially during Double days(hope they are still around next month)and eventually reaching 40,000 again in a couple of years for my next big adventure. I guess we'll find out at the end of August how all of this comes down.

We used Wyndham rewards points on our trip so every hotel room was free. Right before our trip Wyndham changed their system, where instead of getting free nights for as little as 5500 points, now all their free rewards are at 15,000. We didn't use more than 8000 on our trip. You can use their "go fast" feature which will get you a room for 3,000 points plus $25 or $30for their former 5500 and 8000 point rooms. and up to $75 cash extra for their former 10 to 30,000 point rooms, Every hotel we stayed at was free. If we booked those rooms now, it would cost extra, unless we booked a 15,000 point room.

Depending on the upcoming details, I may want to use my points before the end of the year.


----------



## BCL

benale said:


> I don't quite understand this new system, but I have a feeling the great days of planning long distance trips with points are coming to an end. Two months ago we booked two two zone awards in a roomette using the longest routing Toledo-LAX via the Texas Eagle and LAX-Toledo using The Coast Starlight and The Empire Builder. I guess those days are over. I've used AGR points for many years. I now have built up 11,000 points and until I read this, I was anticipating doing point runs especially during Double days(hope they are still around next month)and eventually reaching 40,000 again in a couple of years for my next big adventure. I guess we'll find out at the end of August how all of this comes down.


Of course that's kind of where we are. If I wanted to use my points on a quickie weekend trip like EMY-SNS on the CS, that costs the same 5500 points as SEA-ELP. Of course I'm kind of waiting to see how they value points. I frankly wouldn't be too happy if it's a 100 points per dollar of revenue travel, but maybe it's something a little kinder than that. Maybe it would even persuade me to use my points rather than hoard them.


----------



## SteveSFL

One of the greatest features of Southwest Rapid Rewards (and AGR) is the ability to cancel an award reservation right up until the departure time and have the points go back into your account with no penalty. Unless you have status in any other program, there's usually a hefty fee for that. I hope AGR retains that feature.

In fact, I usually use that feature of Rapid Rewards in conjunction with my one-way AGR trips by booking two flights home: one for an on-time train and one for the ubiquitous 12- or 24-hour late train. I just cancel the one that's not going to be used.

One strange thing about Rapid Rewards is the tiered redemption levels. In addition to the number of points required being based on the cash fare (less taxes and most fees), it's also based on whether the fare is "Wanna Get Away", "Anytime", or "Business Select". This seems to add a layer of complexity since the higher "classes" of fare are already more expensive.


----------



## Eris

BofA does have a couple of co-branded cruise line points cards with no annual fee.


----------



## SteveSFL

BCL, I hope it's nowhere close to 100 points/$. I don't think many people would consider using 97,800 points for a low-bucket CHI-EMY bedroom on the Zephyr (for two people). At 50 points/$ it would be a lot closer to the current 40,000 point 2-zone bedroom. 50 points per $ would also make some low-bucket roomette long-distance trips not too unreasonable for us solo travelers, either. For example, CHI-SEA at $422 would be 21,100 points.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to be really sorry to see the zone system go away, and with the missteps that Amtrak has been taking lately with their service decisions, I have little faith that they'll make this system workable either.

If they were to make it 100 points/$, I think they'd see a lot of empty sleepers on the long-distance trains. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the current LD sleeper occupancy by AGR vs. cash fare. And remember that running trains with empty sleepers doesn't really save Amtrak that much money.


----------



## BCL

SteveSTX said:


> One strange thing about Rapid Rewards is the tiered redemption levels. In addition to the number of points required being based on the cash fare (less taxes and most fees), it's also based on whether the fare is "Wanna Get Away", "Anytime", or "Business Select". This seems to add a layer of complexity since the higher "classes" of fare are already more expensive.


Is it really more complex? I looked it over for a sample flight, and Business Select seems to cost about 107 points per revenue dollar, Anytime was about 89 points per, and Wanna Get Away about 56. They're obviously trying to get redemption passengers into their highest discount range such that they get more revenue from passengers. The way AGR does it with sleepers is kind of backwards in that they're not getting as much revenue from what should be their big money maker. Now I don't know how many people would really want to pay that much.


----------



## SteveSFL

With regard to the three-tier SWA awards, the reason I think it is overly complex is that many of the benefits of the higher fare-classes are already included when redeeming an award. For example, "Anytime" and "Business Select" are refundable and changeable, but so are all reward redemptions. I don't think paying 100 or 120 points per $ for one of those is justifiably better than 70 points per $ for "Wanna Get Away". Of course with the Business Select you don't have to play 24-hours-in-advance check-in roulette to get a good boarding number, and you also get priority security screening and a free drink.

Edit: I think 70/100/120 are the correct Rapid Rewards redemption levels. If you look at the "Fare Breakdown", you can see that the number of points required is only a function of the base fare, so you're not paying for excise tax, segment fees, or passenger facility charges (another nice feature!)

Also, the higher fare classes normally earn you more reward points when paying cash, but again that is not a factor when redeeming an award since award travel doesn't earn new points.


----------



## Trainmans daughter

I am planning a trip with my granddaughter next June, SAC to NYP round trip. Current AGR plan requires 35,000 each way for a roomette; 70,000 total. We have almost 60,000 points right now, and were planning on buying more if needed in January.

So now, I guess we're screwed!

If we can somehow buy those points before the end of the year and book our trip based on zones, would that lock in our reservations for June 2016, or will we have to pay using the new mysterious plan?

I'm so confused! Please telll me what you would do if you were me.


----------



## PRR 60

Trainmans daughter said:


> I am planning a trip with my granddaughter next June, SAC to NYP round trip. Current AGR plan requires 35,000 each way for a roomette; 70,000 total. We have almost 60,000 points right now, and were planning on buying more if needed in January.
> 
> So now, I guess we're screwed!
> 
> If we can somehow buy those points before the end of the year and book our trip based on zones, would that lock in our reservations for June 2016, or will we have to pay using the new mysterious plan?
> 
> I'm so confused! Please telll me what you would do if you were me.


I'd wait to see what the new program looks like. The details will be announced long before the end of the year allowing lots of time to make whatever decision is needed.


----------



## Carolina Special

It would be nice if the final announcement is along the lines "Yes, we are changing the points system for all future points earning. But any existing points you have earned are being tripled (or whatever the ratio is) so they'll be worth exactly the same as today for redeeming your trip, no matter when you book. So you can still take that Chicago-LA trip you've been planning for, without any worries."

That would be better than a rush to fill all the sleepers by New Year's Eve, which is where we presently seem to be headed with this.


----------



## George K

I'm a noob when it comes to this, but, assuming your points will come up short, I'd book the trip, one way, now. Use the 35K points you have.

Then, with luck, you might be able to combine points and cash for the return trip, if it's more than 35K points. I was able to do that with Hilton points (combine points and $$) for a cheap stay in DC next month.


----------



## George K

Also (and pure speculation here...), if travel is already booked for the time after the new policy goes into effect, would AGR cancel those tickets and "revalue" them? Though I understand that they probably could, under the terms of the agreement, would they?


----------



## yarrow

is the general consensus that after the new agr program structure is revealed 8/31 that one will still be able to make reservations under the present structure until the end of the year?


----------



## calwatch

Nothing's guaranteed, but this has been the case in past Amtrak devaluations. A grace period is provided to make bookings at the same rate, until the end of the schedule period. Amtrak would not cancel past booked tickets, but any changes to the fare would require revaluation at the new rate.


----------



## ronkstevens

Good thing I spent 60k for tickets on my trip this fall. Took my account down to zero.

Depending on the new structure, I'm going to miss "points runs" which were a great excuse to take a quick train ride, especially during double days


----------



## AmtrakBlue

For me, the points enable me to take some trips that I otherwise would not be able to because of lack of $$. Since I live on the NEC, perhaps the new redemption policy will let me take short trips w/o having to use a lot of points.


----------



## BCL

AmtrakBlue said:


> For me, the points enable me to take some trips that I otherwise would not be able to because of lack of $$. Since I live on the NEC, perhaps the new redemption policy will let me take short trips w/o having to use a lot of points.


The worry seems to be that maybe dividing trips into segments won't multiply points, or that the 100 point minimum might be reduced or maybe even eliminated. I for one could never have reached Select Plus last year without a ridiculous effort to maximize segments. I tried lots of tricks to get those points for a minimum of dollars. If I were only concerned with getting to work, I would have just bought 10-rides and maybe the occasional multi segment trip to maybe renew Select. It's not as if I got that status by simply throwing money at it.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

BCL said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> For me, the points enable me to take some trips that I otherwise would not be able to because of lack of $$. Since I live on the NEC, perhaps the new redemption policy will let me take short trips w/o having to use a lot of points.
> 
> 
> 
> The worry seems to be that maybe dividing trips into segments won't multiply points, or that the 100 point minimum might be reduced or maybe even eliminated. I for one could never have reached Select Plus last year without a ridiculous effort to maximize segments. I tried lots of tricks to get those points for a minimum of dollars. If I were only concerned with getting to work, I would have just bought 10-rides and maybe the occasional multi segment trip to maybe renew Select. It's not as if I got that status by simply throwing money at it.
Click to expand...

I was just stating what points mean to me. I know we all have different wants and needs.


----------



## BCL

AmtrakBlue said:


> I was just stating what points mean to me. I know we all have different wants and needs.


Sure. However, you can read about how people AGR here and on Flyertalk and realize that it was unsustainable. AGR as it is now can provide great value for some people and poor value for others depending on where they live. Certainly for the one-zone redemption, being right on the border of a zone is going to provide the most value.

On this board there are long discussions about redemptions that don't necessarily meet a need for transportation. However, neither does a point run, although those don't create big problems with available inventory. Of course AGR members want to maximize train time, number of meals, etc. It's understandable, and I don't think anyone blames AGR members for trying to maximize their utility within the current rules. However, it's not like Amtrak would never react. Airlines used to have disproportionate numbers of award passengers to Hawaii until they tweaked their policies.

As with all devaluing of loyalty programs, we probably should have seen it coming. We're just going to have to see what happens before panicking.


----------



## Rail Freak

If it comes down to the worst case scenario, it was nice while it lasted!!!!! That doesnt mean that I dont have all my fingers & toes crossed!!!!!!


----------



## SteveSFL

I agree with Rail Freak -- I've only been using Amtrak/AGR for two years, and I've already taken 7 long distance trips (3-5 nights) with two more planned for Sept and Oct. I just wish I had discovered AGR sooner! It has been good while it lasted.

Fortunately the trains I have not yet taken are shorter routes or non-connections and are not conducive to multi-night awards.


----------



## amamba

George K said:


> I'm a noob when it comes to this, but, assuming your points will come up short, I'd book the trip, one way, now. Use the 35K points you have.
> 
> Then, with luck, you might be able to combine points and cash for the return trip, if it's more than 35K points. I was able to do that with Hilton points (combine points and $$) for a cheap stay in DC next month.


I agree with this for sure. In fact I'm going to check my account and see when I have enough time for a trip this year. Perhaps I'll make that trip to NOLA on the crescent that I've been wanting to do this winter.


----------



## Trainmans daughter

George K said:


> I'm a noob when it comes to this, but, assuming your points will come up short, I'd book the trip, one way, now. Use the 35K points you have.
> 
> Then, with luck, you might be able to combine points and cash for the return trip, if it's more than 35K points. I was able to do that with Hilton points (combine points and $$) for a cheap stay in DC next month.


Thanks, George. Good idea.


----------



## Kat314159

As someone who hasn't abused the system up until this point (my redemptions have been for midbucket "special" routes to Chicago). I"m hopeful that I won't lose my every 16th trip to Chicago free.... Although when they finish the @#$%! track upgrades and we get our Acela of Illinois (or however they brand 110mph service and not having crews out doing stuff on the track we should cut time a good chunk of time off STL-CHI) I'll happily take the points hit for faster service to all the connections in Chicago (the 300 and 306/307 timetables requiring staying awake til or getting up at dark o'clock are the reason behind many rail trips that never were).

Here's hoping that an average Jane in the midwest might feel like Amtrak cares about my business even though I'm not on the coasts.


----------



## BCL

Kat314159 said:


> As someone who hasn't abused the system up until this point (my redemptions have been for midbucket "special" routes to Chicago). I"m hopeful that I won't lose my every 16th trip to Chicago free.... Although when they finish the @#$%! track upgrades and we get our Acela of Illinois (or however they brand 110mph service and not having crews out doing stuff on the track we should cut time a good chunk of time off STL-CHI) I'll happily take the points hit for faster service to all the connections in Chicago (the 300 and 306/307 timetables requiring staying awake til or getting up at dark o'clock are the reason behind many rail trips that never were).
> 
> Here's hoping that an average Jane in the midwest might feel like Amtrak cares about my business even though I'm not on the coasts.


I think we all realize that someone new to AGR might take one look at the zone map and the redemption amounts, then think this has got to be the most stupid loyalty program in the country. If I wanted to take EMY-RNO when a "value" fare is available on the CZ, it's $50 or 5500 points. If I'm willing to take Capitol Corridor and then a bus, it's $60 or 1500 points. It makes no sense. Granted - I don't mind that it makes no sense.

Or the weirdness with the zone maps - I looked up LMY-GLP, which is $41 value fare. Ride that and you only get 100 points. However, try to use points to ride that and it's 8000 points since it's across two zones. However, the longest trip I think there is in the west zone is SEA-ELP which I priced as cheap as $255. But it's only 5500 points as a redemption trip. Of course the system is going to break when there's that much of a disconnect between retail pricing and redemption costs.

As far as I can tell, most of the "special routes" with the 1500 point redemption are ones that receive some sort of state subsidy. All three of Amtrak California's routes (Capitol Corridor, San Joaquin, Pacific Surfliner) are special routes and pretty much paid for by the state.

As for the way I earn points, yeah I've figured out my strategy to collect more minimum points. The quick stopover can double my points and give me an excuse to check out the neighborhood. It's also rather interesting how I've had segments valued at $1 earning the same 100 points as a $50 ticket. It remains to be seen what happens with that. That was always a fun way to earn points, although I understood that although few people did it, it was still gaming the system.


----------



## Railroad Bill

Since we had few opportunities for points runs in Cleveland, the vast majority of our points came from using our Chase credit cards. We have accumulated a lot of points through purchases that have given us "free" rides at least three or four times a year on long distance trips. Will have to see what the CC incentives will be to determine if we will still be able to afford the trips out West and to Florida that we have made in the past. :unsure:


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PRR 60 said:


> I'd wait to see what the new program looks like. The details will be announced long before the end of the year allowing lots of time to make whatever decision is needed.


On the other hand the longer you wait the less time you'll have to make use of a program you already understand. If someone is 85% of the way to a major redemption I'd work on that now rather than waiting to see whatever becomes of AGR in the future.



George K said:


> Also (and pure speculation here...), if travel is already booked for the time after the new policy goes into effect, would AGR cancel those tickets and "revalue" them? Though I understand that they probably could, under the terms of the agreement, would they?


Generally once you're ticketed your trip is grandfathered without further upheaval. The variation between programs mainly involves what happens if you attempt to modify a grandfathered ticket prior to travel.



yarrow said:


> is the general consensus that after the new agr program structure is revealed 8/31 that one will still be able to make reservations under the present structure until the end of the year?


There is no such consensus and I would advise against an assumption of that nature.


----------



## tonys96

Link on first post is dead. Is there another link to better, more complete info?


----------



## MrFSS

tonys96 said:


> Link on first post is dead. Is there another link to better, more complete info?


Original site killed it as it wasn't supposed to be public info, yet.


----------



## tonys96

So, I have about 50k points. And absolutely no plan to use them in the works. It looks like I need to be getting a plan together.....

Does anyone have any idea of when the entire new scheme will be made public? I wonder if there will be time for those of us with points "in the bank" to be able to take a look at the "old" plan versus the "new" plan to be able to make informed decisions.

Also, I will likely NOT be changing to a new card, due to the FICO score hit taken by a new inquiry, and the new card lowering the average age of accounts. I had an inquiry done to look at the possibility of buying a new car (gave a $1000 rebate if financed through the manufacturer) and the inquiry alone took 27 points off FICO score. Will just take the current card and cut it up.....paying the balance in full as always and letting the card sleep.


----------



## PRR 60

tonys96 said:


> So, I have about 50k points. And absolutely no plan to use them in the works. It looks like I need to be getting a plan together.....
> 
> Does anyone have any idea of when the entire new scheme will be made public? I wonder if there will be time for those of us with points "in the bank" to be able to take a look at the "old" plan versus the "new" plan to be able to make informed decisions.
> 
> Also, I will likely NOT be changing to a new card, due to the FICO score hit taken by a new inquiry, and the new card lowering the average age of accounts. I had an inquiry done to look at the possibility of buying a new car (gave a $1000 rebate if financed through the manufacturer) and the inquiry alone took 27 points off FICO score. Will just take the current card and cut it up.....paying the balance in full as always and letting the card sleep.


The public announcement is scheduled for August 31 with emails to all members and details on the AGR website.

I have no idea how the AGR credit card transition will take place, but in a similar situation when one of my airline cards moved to a new bank, the account was simply moved over with no application required. The credit agencies did not view it as a new account. The "account opened" date on the credit reports shows the original account open date from the prior bank.


----------



## tonys96

WOW! That is scary..........the 8/31 announcement *could* say that all trips under the "old" scheme must be completed by 12/31. That would give us only 4 months to plan and execute trips, if the "new" scheme is a huge devaluation. (Worst case scenario)

Glad that I did not get drawn in by the bonus point offer to purchase this summer :huh: No way would I be able to burn 60/70k points in 4 months.


----------



## jebr

Theoretically, yes, though I would be immensely surprised if they'd retroactively apply it to already booked award trips.

I would not be surprised if it will apply to trips booked after September 1 that are taken after the first of the year.


----------



## PRR 60

tonys96 said:


> WOW! That is scary..........the 8/31 announcement *could* say that all trips under the "old" scheme must be completed by 12/31. That would give us only 4 months to plan and execute trips, if the "new" scheme is a huge devaluation. (Worst case scenario)
> 
> Glad that I did not get drawn in by the bonus point offer to purchase this summer :huh: No way would I be able to burn 60/70k points in 4 months.


Or, it could say that you have until December 31 to redeem under the existing program with reservations permitted up to 11 months out (11/30/16). Or maybe something in between. And maybe it will not be such a huge devaluation after all.
Gee, I always prided myself in being the most suspicious and cynical person here. I have to up my game!


----------



## tonys96

PRR 60 said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> WOW! That is scary..........the 8/31 announcement *could* say that all trips under the "old" scheme must be completed by 12/31. That would give us only 4 months to plan and execute trips, if the "new" scheme is a huge devaluation. (Worst case scenario)
> 
> Glad that I did not get drawn in by the bonus point offer to purchase this summer :huh: No way would I be able to burn 60/70k points in 4 months.
> 
> 
> 
> Or, it could say that you have until December 31 to redeem under the existing program with reservations permitted up to 11 months out (11/30/16). Or maybe something in between. And maybe it will not be such a huge devaluation after all.
> Gee, I always prided myself in being the most suspicious and cynical person here. I have to up my game!
Click to expand...

I did note (Worst case scenario) in my post. And your first listed possibility _*could*_ have been noted (Best case scenario).

The actual scenario will likely fall somewhere between. The scenario under post # 103 would be pretty onerous, giving us only 4 months to plan and execute trips under the "old" scheme.


----------



## PRR 60

The last time AGR changed redemption requirements (increasing points for some award travel), it was announced January 4 (2012). The changes went into effect on April 1. Reservations made on or before March 31 used the lower points requirements and allowed reservations for travel as far in advance as permitted by the reservation system (11 months). Once the new redemption requirements became effective on April 1, all new reservations and any modifications of prior reservations required using the new point requirements.

Of course, we have no idea how things will be handled this time, but since many of the same people who worked that change are working this one, I have to suspect it will be similar.


----------



## tonys96

PRR 60 said:


> The last time AGR changed redemption requirements (increasing points for some award travel), it was announced January 4 (2012). The changes went into effect on April 1. Reservations made on or before March 31 used the lower points requirements and allowed reservations for travel as far in advance as permitted by the reservation system (11 months). Once the new redemption requirements became effective on April 1, all new reservations and any modifications of prior reservations required using the new point requirements.
> 
> Of course, we have no idea how things will be handled this time, but since many of the same people who worked that change are working this one, I have to suspect it will be similar.


Hopefully you will be proven to be correct!


----------



## Anderson

BCL said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just stating what points mean to me. I know we all have different wants and needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure. However, you can read about how people AGR here and on Flyertalk and realize that it was unsustainable. AGR as it is now can provide great value for some people and poor value for others depending on where they live. Certainly for the one-zone redemption, being right on the border of a zone is going to provide the most value.
> 
> On this board there are long discussions about redemptions that don't necessarily meet a need for transportation. However, neither does a point run, although those don't create big problems with available inventory. Of course AGR members want to maximize train time, number of meals, etc. It's understandable, and I don't think anyone blames AGR members for trying to maximize their utility within the current rules. However, it's not like Amtrak would never react. Airlines used to have disproportionate numbers of award passengers to Hawaii until they tweaked their policies.
> 
> As with all devaluing of loyalty programs, we probably should have seen it coming. We're just going to have to see what happens before panicking.
Click to expand...

I guess the way I see it is that there were few _bad_ deals on offer. The closest I came was when I burned a block of AGR for Business points on a last-minute WAS-RVR sleeper switch...and even then I managed to get a bit over $.01/point out of the deal. By and large there were lots of really good deals and a few places that you could bend over backwards and get a lousy deal (for example, in the Capitol Corridor-bus vs. California Zephyr case, IIRC Amtrak does their best to avoid having _too_ many EMY/SAC-RNO pax because of space issues)...but those were pretty few and far between.

It is probably fair to say that AGR should have devalued more modestly and more regularly (e.g. Hyatt does a reshuffle once a year); an adjustment trend of 5% per year (or otherwise roughly in line with fares), probably moving higher-end prices in 5000 increments (because of round numbers being easier for folks to think about) and lower-end ones in 500 increments, would make sense. I'm actually willing to level this as a criticism...I think most of us would have taken a string of 10% devaluations better than a one-shot 50-75% one.


----------



## SteveSFL

I wonder if discounts on cash fares (senior, NARP, AAA, etc) will translate through to discounted points redemptions??


----------



## rrdude

OK, we are all, me included, *assuming*, that Amtrak is going to move forward with AGR 2.0 that was first reported here an on TrainOrders, no reason not to assume that.

But I'd like to hear comments from AU'ers on "_what is really wrong with this new AGR 2.0_", *ABSENT THE POINT DEVALUATION, * (I know it's hard to separate, especially if you have a lot of points to burn, like me)

But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?

And, *(assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) *if Amtrak Guest Rewards *does move* to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?

I ask this, because I am _somewhat of a fan_ of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".

Remember, put yourself in the shoes of Amtrak, from:


Loyalty-perspective. (want to incent existing customers to ride more, and want to capture new riders)
Revenue perspective. (want to maximize revenue, especially lucrative fares)
in a short summary, how would YOU design Amtrak's loyalty program, without wearing your Rail-Fan hat?


----------



## BCL

rrdude said:


> OK, we are all, me included, *assuming*, that Amtrak is going to move forward with AGR 2.0 that was first reported here an on TrainOrders, no reason not to assume that.
> 
> But I'd like to hear comments from AU'ers on "_what is really wrong with this new AGR 2.0_", *ABSENT THE POINT DEVALUATION, * (I know it's hard to separate, especially if you have a lot of points to burn, like me)
> 
> But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?
> 
> And, *(assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) *if Amtrak Guest Rewards *does move* to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?
> 
> I ask this, because I am _somewhat of a fan_ of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".
> 
> Remember, put yourself in the shoes of Amtrak, from:
> 
> 
> Loyalty-perspective. (want to incent existing customers to ride more, and want to capture new riders)
> Revenue perspective. (want to maximize revenue, especially lucrative fares)
> in a short summary, how would YOU design Amtrak's loyalty program, without wearing your Rail-Fan hat?


Sure. I think a lot of people approached setting up AGR redemptions as "How am I going to get the longest trip out of this with the fewest points redeemed?"

Granted - I could have probably used up my points on several special route trips in lieu of paying cash. However, it felt like maybe I should save them up for one of those crazy routes that everyone was talking about. I'm not quite sure how Amtrak deals with points - whether or not they're considered a liability on their books. We look at it now, and AGR members are often hoarding points in hopes of that grand trip in sleeper accommodations.

I'm actually thinking it might make for a more interesting trip if multi-city can actually be applied to AGR redemptions. I'd enjoy it if maybe I could take the CZ EMY-CHI and have a stop in Reno, then Denver, and maybe another along the way. Of course then there's the matter of having enough points.


----------



## yarrow

couple of things i will be interested to see. one big, one small. will the practice of allowing a single sleeper redemption to be used for up to the number of pax allowed for that accommodation(eg. 2 in a roomette on 1 redemption) be continued? if sleeper redemptions can be made using the amtrak website, which i think i would tend to do, how up to speed will the phone agr agents be? we shall see


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SteveSTX said:


> I wonder if discounts on cash fares (senior, NARP, AAA, etc) will translate through to discounted points redemptions??


If AGR decided to offer this it would be the first time I've seen such a thing.



rrdude said:


> But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?


I'd probably complain about the perks and earning potential being heavily weighted toward a handful of corridors like the NEC but largely irrelevant in the other 95% of the country. Once these new changes are deployed I suppose we can add redemptions to that list as well.



rrdude said:


> And, *(assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) *if Amtrak Guest Rewards *does move* to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?


Revenue based plans generally benefit (or at least don't seriously harm) folks who routinely travel for business. In 95% of the country using Amtrak for business is a pointless endeavor. Previously this was only a problem on the earning side and there were other ways to earn points that didn't suffer from this issue. Now with redemptions also being revenue based I can imagine AGR will only be useful to me when reserving tickets far in advance during low volume periods when the weather isn't nice and there are no holidays approaching. That might be good for Amtrak but it will bad for me personally.



rrdude said:


> I ask this, because I am _somewhat of a fan_ of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".


WN works great as part of a larger points earning strategy that involves both revenue based and chart based redemptions for different use cases. As more and more plans adopt the revenue model the usefulness of each plan is further diluted. Eventually every program will be revenue based. At that point we might as well be clipping coupons and rebates out of the Sunday paper because the ability to benefit from using your own brain will have vanished.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Two ideas:

1) if it's not broke, don't fix it, just "fine tune" it like the original BS presentation to LOSSAN sort of proposed

2) do away with AGR completely and "save" the money that is spent on it, since it's not a profit center! The Mica Managers in Congress will be pleased


----------



## jis

Jim, you are now ready to run for Congress


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nope, I'd rather remain poor but semi-honest!

And besides, Washington is a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there again!

As LBJ said in his farewell address to Congress: "..I'm going home to Texas where they know when you're sick and care when you die!.."


----------



## jis

Except when it comes to LD passenger trains?  Well I suppose they do step in sometimes when something is about to die. Witness the resurrection of the Texas Eagle from the ashes, though absent Kay Bailey Hutchinson, I don't know what will happen today should such an eventuality arise.

Then again there is hope in the Texas HSR, maybe.

But back to AGR, as I said earlier, I would really like to see pure points or even points and dollars upgrades be added as a feature. Usually I am perfectly happy to buy a Coach tciket even cross country, it is the Sleeper upcharge that is the killer, and frankly, without Sleeper I ain;t riding a train cross country anymore, specially with the unpredictable treatment of single riders with respect to seat assignments in Coach. Been there done that in my student days, both by Amtrak and Greyhound.


----------



## pennyk

rrdude said:


> OK, we are all, me included, *assuming*, that Amtrak is going to move forward with AGR 2.0 that was first reported here an on TrainOrders, no reason not to assume that.
> 
> But I'd like to hear comments from AU'ers on "_what is really wrong with this new AGR 2.0_", *ABSENT THE POINT DEVALUATION, * (I know it's hard to separate, especially if you have a lot of points to burn, like me)
> 
> But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?
> 
> And, *(assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) *if Amtrak Guest Rewards *does move* to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?
> 
> I ask this, because I am _somewhat of a fan_ of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".
> 
> Remember, put yourself in the shoes of Amtrak, from:
> 
> 
> Loyalty-perspective. (want to incent existing customers to ride more, and want to capture new riders)
> Revenue perspective. (want to maximize revenue, especially lucrative fares)
> in a short summary, how would YOU design Amtrak's loyalty program, without wearing your Rail-Fan hat?


Jerry, without knowing all the details, it is hard to evaluate (or trash like some are doing) the "new" program. At first blush, it appears to be a fairer method to reward loyal customers.


----------



## Ryan

Starting with a clean sheet, and knowing no details, a Ryan-designed AGR would look something like this.

Earn points per dollar paid (exists today).

Earn more points per dollar paid for "upgraded" tickets (e.g. earn 1 point/$ for coach/Acela BC, 2 points/$ for BC/Acela First, 3 points/$ for sleeping car accommodations).

No 100 point minimum for segments.

On the redemption side, redeem at a fixed(?) points per dollar for the current fare (i.e. bucket pricing now applies to redemptions, just as it does for cash tickets). This gets rid of awkward things like WAS-CHI being a very short 2 zone trip, but a longer BOS-MIA being a 1 zone trip.

This allows for things like cash+points reservations, or paying for a coach ticket and then "buying up" to a roomette or bedroom on points.

On the status level sides, probably not too much change that I can think of.

That's the broad strokes, it's the assignment of point values on both the earning and redeeming side that will be the important differentiator between a good program and a crappy one.



jimhudson said:


> 2) do away with AGR completely and "save" the money that is spent on it, since it's not a profit center!


Do we actually know that?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Fairer to which customers though? The vast majority of the country that has rarely benefited from AGR status, or the tiny percentage of the country who have always been the primary focus? The folks who live near a zone boundary could always buy a revenue coach seat to the boundary before starting their redemption. Which to be frank is a problem I'd love to have. I have no doubt that there will be new options and opportunities associated with this change, but traditionally major loyalty program changes have almost always come with new devaluations. In fact I cannot name even a single example of a substantial program change to a major program that was not also accompanied by a devaluation on or around the same time period.


----------



## Ryan

The issue is that the tiny percentage of the country provides the majority of passenger miles and revenue (that's an assumption that may be way off base).

That builds in an inherent tension, do you build a program that benefits the majority of your customer base, or the nation as a whole (or can you build a program that does both)?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I would vote for the nation as a whole, because then, in an ideal world (yes, I realize that is the problem--that we do not live in an ideal world), more people in more areas of the nation benefit, they take the train more because of the program, and they increase that percentage of the country traveling by train.


----------



## bingozone

By the way it said no zone improvements and no changes


----------



## BCL

Ryan said:


> The issue is that the tiny percentage of the country provides the majority of passenger miles and revenue (that's an assumption that may be way off base).
> 
> That builds in an inherent tension, do you build a program that benefits the majority of your customer base, or the nation as a whole (or can you build a program that does both)?


I certainly understand that the area that the NEC serves has a substantial population (about 17% of the US population), has Amtrak's most profitable routes, is the most dependent on train travel, and is the most politically connected. Like it or not, these are Amtrak's "best customers". That's always the issue with any business, and Amtrak is a business. Do you try to expand your customer base or cater to your best customers? A lot of businesses have made the mistake of choosing the wrong path.

As it stands now, it sounds like the majority of Amtrak's customer base is not in the NEC and is generally indifferent about AGR. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. While it's been fun gathering points and imagining what I would do with them, I don't really see the point.


----------



## BCL

Ryan said:


> Starting with a clean sheet, and knowing no details, a Ryan-designed AGR would look something like this.
> 
> Earn points per dollar paid (exists today).
> 
> Earn more points per dollar paid for "upgraded" tickets (e.g. earn 1 point/$ for coach/Acela BC, 2 points/$ for BC/Acela First, 3 points/$ for sleeping car accommodations).
> 
> No 100 point minimum for segments.


I don't disagree in principle, but minimum points/miles/kilometers have existed with travel loyalty programs for a long time. I know some have discontinued those, but minimum points have often been a big equalizer. Perhaps it can change to something different, such as a minimum of 50 points. Still - the minimum points does encourage butts in seats.


----------



## BCL

Devil's Advocate said:


> Fairer to which customers though? The vast majority of the country that has rarely benefited from AGR status, or the tiny percentage of the country who have always been the primary focus? The folks who live near a zone boundary could always buy a revenue coach seat to the boundary before starting their redemption. Which to be frank is a problem I'd love to have. I have no doubt that there will be new options and opportunities associated with this change, but traditionally major loyalty program changes have almost always come with new devaluations. In fact I cannot name even a single example of a substantial program change to a major program that was not also accompanied by a devaluation on or around the same time period.


You know, I'd like to see someone like Michael Lewis write something on travel loyalty programs. Perhaps he has bigger things to write about, but his work does kind of touch on the things that he's written about in the past - notably market inefficiencies and how markets have adjusted. How some here describe elaborate AGR redemptions reminds me of how _Moneyball_ described number crunchers finding the value that others would ignore. Perhaps it's not quite as nuanced. We can all imagine the fixed redemption costs and search for the particular redemptions that maximize that redemption. However, it's still dealing with market inefficiencies - that there are discrete redemption levels, zone maps, blackout dates, minimum earning, premium routes (Acela), etc. The same can be said for professional gamblers who count cards or try to exploit some flaw that brings the odds in their favor.

However, if there's any adjustment to AGR policies, it's just the market trying to correct the known inefficiencies. I don't know if there's any ideal solution, but many seem to understand that they knew the system was broken, but are just sad that the changes might come at time when it's too late to take advantage of the systems inefficiencies.


----------



## yarrow

BCL said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fairer to which customers though? The vast majority of the country that has rarely benefited from AGR status, or the tiny percentage of the country who have always been the primary focus? The folks who live near a zone boundary could always buy a revenue coach seat to the boundary before starting their redemption. Which to be frank is a problem I'd love to have. I have no doubt that there will be new options and opportunities associated with this change, but traditionally major loyalty program changes have almost always come with new devaluations. In fact I cannot name even a single example of a substantial program change to a major program that was not also accompanied by a devaluation on or around the same time period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, if there's any adjustment to AGR policies, it's just the market trying to correct the known inefficiencies. I don't know if there's any ideal solution, but many seem to understand that they knew the system was broken, but are just sad that the changes might come at time when it's too late to take advantage of the systems inefficiencies.
Click to expand...

we will just have to find the "inefficiencies" in the new system. i take it as a challenge


----------



## ronkstevens

I think that a change away from zone redemption will be a good thing. Not only a benefit to those that frequently travel across zone boundaries, it takes away the 1300 mile one zone/900 mile two zone situation that exists now. I'll wait and see when the announcement comes out.


----------



## Rail Freak

Yeah, I'm on " Pause " till further info comes out!!!


----------



## BCL

ronkstevens said:


> I think that a change away from zone redemption will be a good thing. Not only a benefit to those that frequently travel across zone boundaries, it takes away the 1300 mile one zone/900 mile two zone situation that exists now. I'll wait and see when the announcement comes out.


I tried to find the shortest two zone trip. I didn't look particularly hard, but the closest stations on either side of Denver were the first thing I thought should be fairly close. That's Fraser, CO to Fort Morgan, CO. Departing Tuesday it's $35 value fare. As a two zone redemption it's 8000 points. Driving distance is listed as 148 miles, but the train goes a different (and I suspect more direct) way.

Train:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Fraser-Winter+Park+Amtrak/Amtrak+Station+FMG,+113+Ensign+St,+Fort+Morgan,+CO+80701/@39.9960928,-105.9949314,8z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a337d5495da5d:0x1c8afca42d2e34ca!2m2!1d-105.817388!2d39.947566!1m5!1m1!1s0x876deedede244af5:0xe6c3d3994ac2202e!2m2!1d-103.8028228!2d40.2471082!3e3

Car:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Fraser-Winter+Park+Amtrak/Amtrak+Station+FMG,+113+Ensign+St,+Fort+Morgan,+CO+80701/@39.9686589,-105.885744,8z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x876a337d5495da5d:0x1c8afca42d2e34ca!2m2!1d-105.817388!2d39.947566!1m5!1m1!1s0x876deedede244af5:0xe6c3d3994ac2202e!2m2!1d-103.8028228!2d40.2471082!3e0

I could see them keeping the 1500 point redemption for special routes. Those routes seem to be state subsidized services that are rarely full. However, it could be they're rejiggering redemption costs considering different earning numbers. I suppose they could make a point worth "more" if they reduce/remove minimum points. Yeah - I did feel kind of strange when I spend $52 on a trip and got 102 points, but later spend $1 on a bus ride (that's what it said) and got 100 points.


----------



## rrdude

This topic is not "interesting enuff" for any any writer, who is also not a foamer, to write about, Any who, I just burned 66,500 of my points for a June trip next year.............

Several thousand more to burn, and i'm done.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

yarrow said:


> we will just have to find the "inefficiencies" in the new system. i take it as a challenge


That should be quite a challenge indeed.

Revenue based loyalty programs remove inefficiencies by tying points earning and redemption options to the same yield management process as revenue tickets. Inefficiencies in the current AGR system are both predictable and repeatable. I can tell you about a favorable redemption today and it would remain in effect next week/month/year when you're ready to book it, right up to the very last seat.

With a revenue based program your primary opportunity for a substantial discount will be due to some sort of mistake. Unfortunately mistake fares generally only last from several minutes to a few hours. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to be booking a trip at the exact moment the mistake fare occurs but I wouldn't count on it. Even if you did manage to find a substantial discount it's unlikely you'd be able to repeat it later or predict the next one.


----------



## BCL

Devil's Advocate said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> we will just have to find the "inefficiencies" in the new system. i take it as a challenge
> 
> 
> 
> That should be quite a challenge indeed.
> 
> Revenue based loyalty programs remove inefficiencies by tying points earning and redemption options to the same yield management process as revenue tickets. Inefficiencies in the current AGR system are both predictable and repeatable. I can tell you about a favorable redemption today and it would remain in effect next week/month/year when you're ready to book it, right up to the very last seat.
> 
> With a revenue based program your primary opportunity for a substantial discount will be due to some sort of mistake. Unfortunately mistake fares generally only last from several minutes to a few hours. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to be booking a trip at the exact moment the mistake fare occurs but I wouldn't count on it. Even if you did manage to find a substantial discount it's unlikely you'd be able to repeat it later or predict the next one.
Click to expand...

Have there really been that many mistake fares on Amtrak? I certainly understand fat finger fares from airlines, but Amtrak fares don't really seem to be all that variable beyond buckets or maybe mistakes during fare increases.

I don't know if maybe Amtrak will go to something like an airline model. Some frequent flyer plans used to have limits on the number of passengers per flight on award tickets, and members would complain mightily that they couldn't get that award ticket to Hawaii. That might be a little bit harder to quantify with Amtrak given all the possibilities for overlapping routes that can be taken. I did find it odd reading here, where some talked about parting with AGR points instead of paying high bucket. I suppose that was taking advantage of a certain inefficiency, and where it meant getting the most value for the points relative to the retail fare.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

BCL said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> we will just have to find the "inefficiencies" in the new system. i take it as a challenge
> 
> 
> 
> That should be quite a challenge indeed.
> 
> Revenue based loyalty programs remove inefficiencies by tying points earning and redemption options to the same yield management process as revenue tickets. Inefficiencies in the current AGR system are both predictable and repeatable. I can tell you about a favorable redemption today and it would remain in effect next week/month/year when you're ready to book it, right up to the very last seat.
> 
> With a revenue based program your primary opportunity for a substantial discount will be due to some sort of mistake. Unfortunately mistake fares generally only last from several minutes to a few hours. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to be booking a trip at the exact moment the mistake fare occurs but I wouldn't count on it. Even if you did manage to find a substantial discount it's unlikely you'd be able to repeat it later or predict the next one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have there really been that many mistake fares on Amtrak? I certainly understand fat finger fares from airlines, but Amtrak fares don't really seem to be all that variable beyond buckets or maybe mistakes during fare increases.
Click to expand...

In this context when I say "mistake fare" I'm referring to situations where Amtrak have priced the last available roomette at the lowest possible bucket or have priced a full bedroom below a roomette fare on the same train. Those are situations I've actually seen before. I have never seen anything from Amtrak that approaches the sort of mistake fares airlines sometimes offer where the fare is so low that it's almost laughable. Even if Amtrak did make a major mistake I don't believe they'd fall under the same regulations as the airlines and could simply refund any ticketed fares without needing to honor them.


----------



## rrdude

End of next June. 60K points, for Coast Starlight from Klamath Falls to Sacramento, Zephyr from Sacramento to Chicago, Cardinal from Chicago to Baltimore, Penn.

Bedrooms the whole way. My only _real_ concern is the CZ-Cardinal connection in Chicago.

Two of us traveling, retail fare is $3,119, that's a pretty decent return on the AGR points, IMHO.

Also burning some on SPECIAL ROUTE 'tween San Diego, and Irvine, California.

Ha, won't I be feeling the fool, if the new AGR 2.0 is MORE BENEFICIAL to those of us with points in the bank. (Hey, it _*could happen!*_)


----------



## PRR 60

rrdude said:


> End of next June. 60K points, for Coast Starlight from Klamath Falls to Sacramento, Zephyr from Sacramento to Chicago, Cardinal from Chicago to Baltimore, Penn.
> 
> Bedrooms the whole way. My only _real_ concern is the CZ-Cardinal connection in Chicago.
> 
> Two of us traveling, retail fare is $3,119, that's a pretty decent return on the AGR points, IMHO.
> 
> Also burning some on SPECIAL ROUTE 'tween San Diego, and Irvine, California.
> 
> Ha, won't I be feeling the fool, if the new AGR 2.0 is MORE BENEFICIAL to those of us with points in the bank. (Hey, it _*could happen!*_)


If the new program is more beneficial, you can always cancel and rebook. With the current liberal AGR cancelation policy, there is no downside to booking now and locking in today's redemption rates.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

rrdude said:


> Two of us traveling, retail fare is $3,119, that's a pretty decent return on the AGR points, IMHO.


It will be interesting to see if Amtrak's $3,000+ cross country fares hold up in an AGR2 world. I wonder which type of customer has the right combination of low expectations and careless spending to make that look like a good value. If it was a private varnish trip with fancy rooms and quality meals I'd understand, but spending that much on a dilapidated fiberglass compartment with meals that struggle to reach Denny's quality is damn near incomprehensible to me.



rrdude said:


> Ha, won't I be feeling the fool, if the new AGR 2.0 is MORE BENEFICIAL to those of us with points in the bank. (Hey, it _*could happen!*_)


There is no reason whatsoever to feel foolish for taking the bet that pays dividends 99% of the time.


----------



## me_little_me

If anyone has points to burn, I'm not too shy to ask that you "point" me a bedroom ticket from Atlanta to El Paso round trip. Only 25K each way. :giggle: :giggle:


----------



## BCL

Of course we know the issue for Amtrak. It's always a similar issue that we see with flat pricing. You "paid" for it and want to get the most value. Many people have a tendency to overeat at buffets. I have had "all you can order" meals with a one hour limit, and that's sort of where AGR is with zones, in that everything is basically shoehorned into the zones.

Also, the tendency seems to be to use up points on LD trips, and having been on a few LD trains, seats tend to be at a premium. I said I suspected that special routes are lower redemption because they're shorter, generally state subsidized routes, and (for the most part) aren't near capacity. I'm really hoping they have something that still has special routes. I've been thinking of just doing a silly overnight round trip to San Diego. Seems like a killer deal if I can burn 3000 points on this.


----------



## Anderson

Devil's Advocate said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> we will just have to find the "inefficiencies" in the new system. i take it as a challenge
> 
> 
> 
> That should be quite a challenge indeed.
> 
> Revenue based loyalty programs remove inefficiencies by tying points earning and redemption options to the same yield management process as revenue tickets. Inefficiencies in the current AGR system are both predictable and repeatable. I can tell you about a favorable redemption today and it would remain in effect next week/month/year when you're ready to book it, right up to the very last seat.
> 
> With a revenue based program your primary opportunity for a substantial discount will be due to some sort of mistake. Unfortunately mistake fares generally only last from several minutes to a few hours. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to be booking a trip at the exact moment the mistake fare occurs but I wouldn't count on it. Even if you did manage to find a substantial discount it's unlikely you'd be able to repeat it later or predict the next one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have there really been that many mistake fares on Amtrak? I certainly understand fat finger fares from airlines, but Amtrak fares don't really seem to be all that variable beyond buckets or maybe mistakes during fare increases.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In this context when I say "mistake fare" I'm referring to situations where Amtrak have priced the last available roomette at the lowest possible bucket or have priced a full bedroom below a roomette fare on the same train. Those are situations I've actually seen before. I have never seen anything from Amtrak that approaches the sort of mistake fares airlines sometimes offer where the fare is so low that it's almost laughable. Even if Amtrak did make a major mistake I don't believe they'd fall under the same regulations as the airlines and could simply refund any ticketed fares without needing to honor them.
Click to expand...

In general, those tend to be situations where something funky is going on with inventory (e.g. roomettes are almost full but there are a bunch of bedrooms available). There's also "Stupid Roomette Tricks", but that usually works off of either (1) Amtrak trying to move space rather than letting it spoil, (2) space being sold out further down the line and Amtrak trying to reap a "second sale", or (3) really high pricing on coach tickets overwhelming the room charges.

===== ===== ===== ===== =====

I thought through "Why do I do AGR?" over the last day or so, and I think there is one key, _highly_ underrated benefit of it: Capping off the price of most trips predictably. Basically, right now I can afford to do anything I want within the Amtrak system (within reason, at least). Particularly at Select Executive (and for someone who's not on the Acela...or indeed Regionals...enough to make the endless slew of upgrade cards as worthwhile), that (plus the bonus points) is worth it.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this context when I say "mistake fare" I'm referring to situations where Amtrak have priced the last available roomette at the lowest possible bucket or have priced a full bedroom below a roomette fare on the same train. Those are situations I've actually seen before. I have never seen anything from Amtrak that approaches the sort of mistake fares airlines sometimes offer where the fare is so low that it's almost laughable. Even if Amtrak did make a major mistake I don't believe they'd fall under the same regulations as the airlines and could simply refund any ticketed fares without needing to honor them.
> 
> 
> 
> In general, those tend to be situations where something funky is going on with inventory (e.g. roomettes are almost full but there are a bunch of bedrooms available). There's also "Stupid Roomette Tricks", but that usually works off of either (1) Amtrak trying to move space rather than letting it spoil, (2) space being sold out further down the line and Amtrak trying to reap a "second sale", or (3) really high pricing on coach tickets overwhelming the room charges.
Click to expand...

If it's not a mistake can you explain to me how intentionally pricing a roomette higher than a bedroom in the exact same car on the exact same train with the exact same rules benefits Amtrak?


----------



## yarrow

Devil's Advocate said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> we will just have to find the "inefficiencies" in the new system. i take it as a challenge
> 
> 
> 
> That should be quite a challenge indeed.
> 
> Revenue based loyalty programs remove inefficiencies by tying points earning and redemption options to the same yield management process as revenue tickets. Inefficiencies in the current AGR system are both predictable and repeatable. I can tell you about a favorable redemption today and it would remain in effect next week/month/year when you're ready to book it, right up to the very last seat.
> 
> With a revenue based program your primary opportunity for a substantial discount will be due to some sort of mistake. Unfortunately mistake fares generally only last from several minutes to a few hours. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to be booking a trip at the exact moment the mistake fare occurs but I wouldn't count on it. Even if you did manage to find a substantial discount it's unlikely you'd be able to repeat it later or predict the next one.
Click to expand...

it seems to me you are crediting amtrak management with an amount of intelligence i haven't seen consistently displayed in the past.


----------



## jebr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this context when I say "mistake fare" I'm referring to situations where Amtrak have priced the last available roomette at the lowest possible bucket or have priced a full bedroom below a roomette fare on the same train. Those are situations I've actually seen before. I have never seen anything from Amtrak that approaches the sort of mistake fares airlines sometimes offer where the fare is so low that it's almost laughable. Even if Amtrak did make a major mistake I don't believe they'd fall under the same regulations as the airlines and could simply refund any ticketed fares without needing to honor them.
> 
> 
> 
> In general, those tend to be situations where something funky is going on with inventory (e.g. roomettes are almost full but there are a bunch of bedrooms available). There's also "Stupid Roomette Tricks", but that usually works off of either (1) Amtrak trying to move space rather than letting it spoil, (2) space being sold out further down the line and Amtrak trying to reap a "second sale", or (3) really high pricing on coach tickets overwhelming the room charges.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If it's not a mistake can you explain to me how intentionally pricing a roomette higher than a bedroom in the exact same car on the exact same train with the exact same rules benefits Amtrak?
Click to expand...

If the customer is wanting to go to/from an intermediate point, and the bedroom has already been sold once (or more) on other segments, but the roomettes are still available for the full distance, it would make sense for Amtrak to push someone to the bedroom to fill the "empty space" that can only be filled within that limited market.

For example, let's say someone wants to go from MOT - MSP. Amtrak has 2 bedrooms available and 3 roomettes available. However, all the roomettes are open the full distance, as is one of the two bedrooms, but the other bedroom is already occupied from SEA - WTN and MSP - CHI. In this case, while Amtrak may be able to sell it at the full bedroom rate, it would make sense to try and push the customer to occupy that bedroom and keep the roomettes (and other bedroom) available for any city pair instead of limiting it with that one customer.

I'm not sold that the revenue management is that targeted, but it very well could be and it would make sense to do so.


----------



## Anderson

jebr said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this context when I say "mistake fare" I'm referring to situations where Amtrak have priced the last available roomette at the lowest possible bucket or have priced a full bedroom below a roomette fare on the same train. Those are situations I've actually seen before. I have never seen anything from Amtrak that approaches the sort of mistake fares airlines sometimes offer where the fare is so low that it's almost laughable. Even if Amtrak did make a major mistake I don't believe they'd fall under the same regulations as the airlines and could simply refund any ticketed fares without needing to honor them.
> 
> 
> 
> In general, those tend to be situations where something funky is going on with inventory (e.g. roomettes are almost full but there are a bunch of bedrooms available). There's also "Stupid Roomette Tricks", but that usually works off of either (1) Amtrak trying to move space rather than letting it spoil, (2) space being sold out further down the line and Amtrak trying to reap a "second sale", or (3) really high pricing on coach tickets overwhelming the room charges.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If it's not a mistake can you explain to me how intentionally pricing a roomette higher than a bedroom in the exact same car on the exact same train with the exact same rules benefits Amtrak?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If the customer is wanting to go to/from an intermediate point, and the bedroom has already been sold once (or more) on other segments, but the roomettes are still available for the full distance, it would make sense for Amtrak to push someone to the bedroom to fill the "empty space" that can only be filled within that limited market.
> 
> For example, let's say someone wants to go from MOT - MSP. Amtrak has 2 bedrooms available and 3 roomettes available. However, all the roomettes are open the full distance, as is one of the two bedrooms, but the other bedroom is already occupied from SEA - WTN and MSP - CHI. In this case, while Amtrak may be able to sell it at the full bedroom rate, it would make sense to try and push the customer to occupy that bedroom and keep the roomettes (and other bedroom) available for any city pair instead of limiting it with that one customer.
> 
> I'm not sold that the revenue management is that targeted, but it very well could be and it would make sense to do so.
Click to expand...

This comes to mind. There's also the fact that Amtrak is likely banking on being able to sell those roomettes at the high price regardless, but that towards the last minute it might not be able to move the bedrooms (in substantial numbers).

Let us assume at some point that Amtrak expects to be able to sell an additional 8 roomettes and 3 bedrooms before departure. They have 6 roomettes and 6 bedrooms available. In such a case, Amtrak would probably rather kick someone who would otherwise buy a roomette into a bedroom at the roomette price so as to be able to sell the other roomettes to roomette customers (rather than locking the bedroom price high and, as a result, losing one or more sales). A good example is actually me: All else being equal, I probably won't pay for a bedroom on a long-distance trip...but if the roomettes are on the verge of being sold out, it might behoove Amtrak to comp me an upgrade to a bedroom from a roomette if the bedroom would go unsold but they can sell my roomette to another passenger.


----------



## abcnews

I know I have booked a bedroom at a very low price from Chicago to Cincinnati on the Cardinal. The reason was the bedroom was already booked eastbound from Cin to NYP. So in that case the bedroom from Chicago to Cincinnati was cheaper than roomette.


----------



## cyferx

I guess I am confused. I looked at the url document and it doesn't have any of this information and ends on page 28. Other than the flyertalk post, where is all this information coming from?

Depending on what is revealed about the new program at the end of the month(?), I will decide whether to continue in it or burn my points on some long distance sleeper trips.

It is a bit sad, but there might be benefits to it, such as not being locked into long hauls to make the most of the points, and not being forced into coach because three-zones is such a bad deal. Also you could focus on the real value of the points which is the upgrade rather than the underlying ride fare (i.e. coach).


----------



## City of Miami

I just made a 2 zone roomette redemption for October and got the 1K rebate from the credit card so that perk's still there for the moment.

cyferx - I believe I read those last pages of the original document had been redacted because it was an unofficial leak. It said, among other things, that the new program will be revealed to all members by email on August 31st. A corollary to the burn/not to burn question is when exactly the new rules go into effect - we know nothing about the timing which is critical.

I don't get your last sentence though - the part about the real value of the points being the 'upgrade' not the rail fare. Please explain.


----------



## rrdude

cyferx said:


> I guess I am confused. I looked at the url document and it doesn't have any of this information and ends on page 28. Other than the flyertalk post, where is all this information coming from?
> 
> Depending on what is revealed about the new program at the end of the month(?), I will decide whether to continue in it or burn my points on some long distance sleeper trips.
> 
> It is a bit sad, but there might be benefits to it, such as not being locked into long hauls to make the most of the points, and not being forced into coach because three-zones is such a bad deal. Also you could focus on the real value of the points which is the upgrade rather than the underlying ride fare (i.e. coach).


The document has, shall we say, been "amended". If you want a copy, I downloaded it, shoot me a PM with your email, and I'll shoot you a copy back. It's not really all that interesting for what it said, just a case of _planned changes_ that leaked early.


----------



## Notelvis

printman2000 said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's been a nice run, but all good things must end.
> 
> I think that *jebr *is too optimistic about the future exchange rate. A five cents per point redemption rate won't work if you can buy points for less than that. Two cents per point seems more likely, or even lower. I think that we're looking at a major devaluation for sleeper redemptions, so I plan to use up my points under the old dispensation.
> 
> I imagine, though, that after I burn my points I will use Amtrak less. Late trains, increasingly decrepit Superliners, less choice in the dining car, inconsistent customer service (except for conductors, who are consistently rude), and now this devaluation make other modes of travel more tolerable to me. I'm sure that is fine with Amtrak. I've never been a particularly valuable customer.
> 
> 
> 
> I am feeling the same way.
Click to expand...

Me too...... or me three.

I am contemplating an Atlanta-Philly trip using roomette in March. I'm guessing that I could go ahead and book that now for 15,000 points........ before the revamp rolls out.


----------



## George K

Notelvis said:


> I am contemplating an Atlanta-Philly trip using roomette in March. I'm guessing that I could go ahead and book that now for 15,000 points........ before the revamp rolls out.


What's the possible downside? If you cancel, you should get your points back, right?


----------



## City of Miami

Yes, when I made a redemption rez today Jennifer iterated that a cancellation prior to departure yields full refund of points.


----------



## Ispolkom

Anderson said:


> This comes to mind. There's also the fact that Amtrak is likely banking on being able to sell those roomettes at the high price regardless, but that towards the last minute it might not be able to move the bedrooms (in substantial numbers).


Except that in real life they do sell the bedrooms. I'm on western long-distance trains a fair amount (15-21 nights a year), and there always is much more pressure on bedrooms than roomettes. They do sell out, while there's usually one last roomette on any train. It's not accidental that AGR increased the cost of bedrooms. There are a suprising number of Amtrak passengers with what Kornai called a soft budget constraint, especially when they learn that the bedroom has a private bathroom.

I'm willing to admit that the economics of Amtrak sleeper charges is a little more rational than it used to be, but I'd not push the point. They are trying to maximize revenue within the constraints of their ticketing program.

But it's a soft point to me. I discovered this site 8 years ago when I was trying to figure out why a family bedroom was cheaper than a roomette from St. Paul to Portland. Onboard the train I learned that there were three tour groups, each of which offered their members only bedrooms and roomettes, thus bidding up those rooms. I've always been grateful that people here encouraged me to grab the family bedroom, rather than spending more time looking a gift horse in the mouth.


----------



## Anderson

Ispolkom said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> This comes to mind. There's also the fact that Amtrak is likely banking on being able to sell those roomettes at the high price regardless, but that towards the last minute it might not be able to move the bedrooms (in substantial numbers).
> 
> 
> 
> Except that in real life they do sell the bedrooms. I'm on western long-distance trains a fair amount (15-21 nights a year), and there always is much more pressure on bedrooms than roomettes. They do sell out, while there's usually one last roomette on any train. It's not accidental that AGR increased the cost of bedrooms. There are a suprising number of Amtrak passengers with what Kornai called a soft budget constraint, especially when they learn that the bedroom has a private bathroom.
> 
> I'm willing to admit that the economics of Amtrak sleeper charges is a little more rational than it used to be, but I'd not push the point. They are trying to maximize revenue within the constraints of their ticketing program.
> 
> But it's a soft point to me. I discovered this site 8 years ago when I was trying to figure out why a family bedroom was cheaper than a roomette from St. Paul to Portland. Onboard the train I learned that there were three tour groups, each of which offered their members only bedrooms and roomettes, thus bidding up those rooms. I've always been grateful that people here encouraged me to grab the family bedroom, rather than spending more time looking a gift horse in the mouth.
Click to expand...

Generally, yes, which is why you don't see this much. However, I _strongly_ suspect that some share of the time (perhaps only 1% of it) the pressure gets inverted on a given frequency for various reasons, and Amtrak's revenue management model will say "Oops, you won't sell all of the bedrooms". That plus the objective of selling spaces twice will generate this particular "bug".


----------



## BCL

Ispolkom said:


> But it's a soft point to me. I discovered this site 8 years ago when I was trying to figure out why a family bedroom was cheaper than a roomette from St. Paul to Portland. Onboard the train I learned that there were three tour groups, each of which offered their members only bedrooms and roomettes, thus bidding up those rooms. I've always been grateful that people here encouraged me to grab the family bedroom, rather than spending more time looking a gift horse in the mouth.


Of course you'd expect the pricing to be rational. I mean - I've yet to see a gas station or commodity price where premium is cheaper than regular. I have heard of some strange promotions though where they were all the same price, but I haven't seen it.

However, it certainly sounds like the Amtrak pricing structure will sometimes treat each "commodity" in a vacuum separate from the other room types.


----------



## Alice

Well, I have seen premium gas cheaper than regular. It was on a cross country road trip a few years ago in several small towns in the midwest, following the tracks instead of the interstate. I noted the pump price, asked if it were a mistake, and was told it was accurate. That is the only time my car saw premium.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

And when places sell all sizes of <fill in your drink of choice> for one price for a promo. Since I usually get the small size, I kinda feel cheated.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

> Eliminate the travel award zone chart by aligning redemption point requirements with fares.





printman2000 said:


> abcnews said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?
> 
> 
> 
> That is what is sounds like. Points will be based off of how much your trip costs.
> Still don't know if that will be low bucket cost or current bucket cost.
Click to expand...

So, for example, if I want to book a trip with a Roomette, from NYC to MIA, on a Silver, the number of points I have to "pay" will vary depending, on several factors, including if I book on the Meteor or the Star? And in either case, it would probably "cost" me far far more than 15,000 pts?

If so, this sucks. :angry2:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Eliminate the travel award zone chart by aligning redemption point requirements with fares.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> abcnews said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do you think that there will no longer be a 20,000 point, two zone award for a roomette? Replaced with a dollar voucher?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is what is sounds like. Points will be based off of how much your trip costs.
> Still don't know if that will be low bucket cost or current bucket cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, for example, if I want to book a trip with a Roomette, from NYC to MIA, on a Silver, the number of points I have to "pay" will vary depending, on several factors, including if I book on the Meteor or the Star? And in either case, it would probably "cost" me far far more than 15,000 pts?
> If so, this sucks. :angry2:
Click to expand...

Or maybe the full route (NYP-MIA) will cost 15,000 points but stations in between will cost less points. So if I wanted to go WIL to ORL, it might be less than 15,000 points.
Well just have to wait and see.


----------



## cyferx

"I don't get your last sentence though - the part about the real value of the points being the 'upgrade' not the rail fare. Please explain." -City of Miami

I mean the real value of the points is getting into First Class. I never use my points to buy coach seats. So, if the value remains in the upgrading, then I will be fine. I don't mind paying for the coach fare. (Although companion tickets are really nice.) This is similar to airlines, most of the usage that I see is upgrading to Economy Plus or Business or even First Class. Completely free travel is not needed to make the system work. I would even use points to get into Club Acela if a) I didn't have to buy 5 vouchers at a time, and b) everyone and their brother wasn't already in there. (I think there should be more exclusivity. You don't go there to be just as crowded as with the hoi polloi. LOL.)

So I think that using the points for perks and upgrades is where the real value is, not in getting coach fare for free.


----------



## Ryan

We have no idea what anything is going to cost at this point.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

S+ & SE members are probably going to want to burn up some of their built up points in the next year. I wonder if that will diminish their numbers in 2016 and/or 2017?


----------



## Anderson

You know, I realized this afternoon that the best way to describe high AGR status (and a reasonably large point pile) is as an insurance policy...one that I probably spend at least a couple hundred dollars per year on. This makes me wonder how much I'd pay straight-out for a guarantee of not having to pay high bucket, for example. I know I'd pay a reasonable sum for guaranteed diner access on the Meteor most days, and for a lot of this I would happily front at least some cash in advance.

Edit: Depending on how the points situation goes, there is every chance I'll engage in a "hard crash" in terms of points earnings. Right now I'm probably earning somewhere in the ballpark of 80-100k/yr. If the credit card deflates and the program's value proposition collapses, I can easily see a situation where that drops to about 20k.

At that point, the main thing keeping me attached to Amtrak's LD system (overall) is the fact that Virgin does not fly WAS-Florida (MCO, FLL, etc.). On a cost-for-product basis Amtrak still kills the other airlines, but being functionally reduced to one SB train per day with the Star cuts means that at least some legs would immediately migrate from Amtrak to VX. OTP problems have already mostly forced me off of the transcontinental system...*sighs*


----------



## calwatch

From talking to an attendee at yesterday's LOSSAN meeting, it was sold to the Board as a better deal for corridor passengers. We'll have to wait for the audio to be uploaded to see what was actually said. They spent only a couple of minutes on this, as expected, with more being spent on adding a Montecito stop to the Surfliner for private varnish.


----------



## Barciur

So my situation is that I've been trying to save up 40k points for a trip in 2 years time most likely from Lancaster to Chicago to San Francisco... I only earn about 7000 a year on average, I bought 5500 this year to help out. I am going to Miami before New Years for cash in a sleeper and returning in coach. Should I maybe cancel the cash reservation and just book it with 15k points? I'm not so sure what's the best thing I should do at this point.


----------



## rtabern

We really hope the point values mentioned in this article aren't going to be true (yes, we are withholding complete judgement until we hear the announcement that is supposedly coming on August 31). Besides the amenities cuts going on... this kinda crap/extreme de-valuation could be the nail in the coffin of us riding Amtrak for our future vacations. Possible trips that cost 40,000 points this year... costing between 125,000 and 250,000 points next year?? CRAP. We hope the folks at Amtrak Guest Rewards are smart enough not to de-value the points this much. Even though the terms and conditions say they can pretty much do what they want with the program, it's not really fair, especially to people who bought thousands of points recently (glad we didn't this year, yet!!).

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2015/08/17/amtrak-devaluation/

The other "nail in the coffin" for us would be if Amtrak did away with the 100-point minimum... meaning no Select Plus status unless you actually spend $5,000 or more per year. For the past about 9 years now that we have been an Amtrak Guest Rewards member, we have purposefully done "point runs" between MKA-MKE and CHI-GLN to earn Select Plus status so that we could use the Metropolitan Lounge whenever we travel to or through Chicago Union Station. Sure, doing this generated maybe only $800.00 ($8 per ticket x 100) for Amtrak, but it's still $800 in their coffers they wouldn't have otherwise really... well, maybe $770 with the $30 in pretzels and soad we eat in the lounge... LOL.

I guess see what happens... and I guess if it's going to be this bad, we'll be booking one last "hoorah" trip in a bedroom before 12/31/15 for 2016 to burn off all 300,000 points and then close down our accounts.

The reality is, if I am actually going to shell out $1,800 cross-country for a bedroom, it ain't going to be on Amtrak... it's going to be on VIA or private car charters. Why Amtrak when VIA is the same amount for trips (especially on 50% off sales)? VIA with 4 historic dome cars -- 3 of which are for sleeping car passengers only vs. Amtrak's 1 over-crowded lounge that always seems to be ditry (unless you are on the Cardinal or other trains and just get a combined diner-lounge)... VIA with good meals vs. Amtrak's worsening meals... VIA with on-board activites planned througout the day (talks, beer tastings, wine tastings, etc.) vs. nothing on Amtrak anymore (I remember bingo games, etc. when I was a kid). VIA's service or Amtrak's new policy of having to pay for your coffee and juice after 11am now?

I have taken ATLEAST one Amtrak long-distance trip EVERY YEAR since I was about 4 years old (1983)... I could see 2016 being the last year, sadly, this happens... again, the first nail in the coffin was the cut in ammenities and the last for us could be the potential AGR change. I hope there is enough backlash to the changes that I am hearing... even though knowing Amtrak media relations and customers relations will spin this up as "great for short-haul customers" and those on the NEC.

I am burning my points down -- I usually keep a balance of 300,000 to 350,000 or more -- down to 278,000 now and will keep dropping.


----------



## rtabern

Since my post above... I have been doing a little math here this morning to figure all of this out (yes, speculative until an announcement is made, but good to be prepared in my opinion). 

SO... If AGR bases point resumptions at the same monetary value that Southwest Airlines does, that means 49 AGR points will equal $1 towards paying for travel... (49 Southwest Airlines points buy you about $1 in travel). 

Applied to Amtrak... a $1,800 bedroom from Chicago to the West Coast that could redeemed for 40,000 points now... would end up costing 90,000 points in 2016. NOT COOL. 

That means your points lost more than half of their value people!!! 

Also, the more I think about it, I see the end of the 100 point minimum deal. Why? Well, I could spend $3.15 from a ticket on the Southwest Chief or one of the Illinois state trains (low-bucket with NARP discount) from Mendota to Princeton and get 150 points being a Select Plus member (100 minimum plus 50 point S+ bonus). If 49 AGR points will buy $1 in travel... that means the 150 points earned for that $3 ticket will be equal. As in, buy one ticket and get one free for that short stretch... and Amtrak isn't going to tolerate that with AGR 2.0... so bye, bye 100 point bonuses too is my thought, but I could be wrong.


----------



## abcnews

I somehow think that the plan will actually be more generous than Southwest, since Southwest is pretty much a discount carrier. I mean, if you are flying on a discount carrier - with a discounted ticket, then it's hard to expect a lucrative Frequent Flyer plan at Southwest. But we'll see we what the new plan looks like soon.


----------



## jis

As long as the airlines on the NEC give 500 point minimum it is likely that the 500 point minimum on Acela will be maintained, though the the fare levels are going it may progressively become more and more meaningless since the double th dollar amount may become more than 500 anyway.. AFAIR the original raison d'etre for AGR was to make Acela competitive with airlines. The rest of the AGR thing sort of followed from it. I would not be surprised if the 100 point minimum is maintained but requires a spend of at least $25 or some such, with lower spend per segment just earning the normal double the dollar amount in points for those without status.

All mere speculation of course....


----------



## jebr

If it's truly going to be better for short-haul passengers (like what was reported that they said at the LOSSAN meeting,) I would think the 100 point minimum would stay in some fashion. Many of those trips are less than $50 per segment, and so removal of the 100 point minimum would be a blow to that thought process.


----------



## jis

jebr said:


> If it's truly going to be better for short-haul passengers (like what was reported that they said at the LOSSAN meeting,) I would think the 100 point minimum would stay in some fashion. Many of those trips are less than $50 per segment, and so removal of the 100 point minimum would be a blow to that thought process.


That is a very good point Jeb!


----------



## Bob Dylan

"..turn out the lights, the parties over, tomorrow begins a whole new day again.."

Since we know there will be a devaluation of points in the "New and Improved AGR 2.0", it's just a matter of waiting on the details when they are released by AGR.

With the increase in the cost of buying points on the last promo, hopefully the devaluation will be in line with the increase and not be a Draconian cut like 50-100%!!!

Lots of us have been through revisions of various loyalty travel programs and the "new and improved" versions are always a devaluation of the benefits, @ a higher cost!

We'll see when the details are released,as the old saying goes, "the devil is in the details!"

If the points are totally Fare based as to earning/spending, not many of us will be purchasing $1000-$3000 LD tickets, or if if the 100 Point Minimum is gone, the cheapie bus lines and local Transit will gain alot of current Amtrak riders business!

As jis said, the 500 points for Acela BC and the 750 for FC upgrades were already not much of an incentive unless your tickets are being paid for by someone else like an employer!

I'm from Missouri in this, Show me!!!


----------



## Ryan

> Since we know there will be a devaluation of points


We do? I'm not aware of any numbers being published.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> Since we know there will be a devaluation of points
> 
> 
> 
> We do? I'm not aware of any numbers being published.
Click to expand...

I understand your point Ryan but based on all the other "New and Improved" Loyalty Programs I've seen that go to Revenue Based Point Awards, every single one has resulted in devaluation of points/mileage/rooms/cars etc.

If you know of any that didn't please share it and I'll look into signing up!

I'm still from Missouri on this one, Show Me! YMMV which is great!


----------



## jis

jimhudson said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since we know there will be a devaluation of points
> 
> 
> 
> We do? I'm not aware of any numbers being published.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I understand your point Ryan but based on all the other "New and Improved" Loyalty Programs I've seen that go to Revenue Based Point Awards, every single one has resulted in devaluation of points/mileage/rooms/cars etc.
> 
> If you know of any that didn't please share it and I'll look into signing up!
> 
> I'm still from Missouri on this one, Show Me! YMMV which is great!
Click to expand...

The thing about revenue based awards is that the amount of award you get is not cut and dried determined by distance traveled. For example on United I am consistently getting way more points than I used to get under the old system because of the fares that the company tends to use for business travel. It is the real bottom feeder fare users who get thoroughly screwed. Those that can afford or are forded to for reasons of health, to use Business or First class make out like bandits, and even more so if they hold high status.

On the redemption side things had been devalued so much from mid 90's that I have tended not to get free tickets at all so don;t know much about it. My stash of points is now consistently used to get pure points based or points and money based upgrades from low to mid level Coach fares.

The other odd feature of the United Mileage plus, which is the one I use mostly - actually way more than I use AGR even, is that elite qualification depends on actual miles traveled and a total dollar threshold, and not on the ticket prices based point system. So very little has changed in elite qualification, and indeed very low fare points runs on long routes still make a lot of sense to get qualified as elite, because the spinoff from such is even more disproportionately skewed now.

As I said in an earlier message, all the devil is in the details, which we know nothing about in AGR 2.0. Once we know that everyone will need to evaluate whether there is an useful niche in the new scheme of things where their needs fit and they can thrive, or there is none such thus making it easy to simply abandon the whole thing.


----------



## BCL

I think we all know what the issue is with Amtrak. The cost of redemption for sleepers was way out of proportion with the retail price, especially when there's no separate redemption amount for per passenger transportation. It gets pretty obvious when buying points isn't simply to put someone over the top for a redemption, but because in the long run it's cheaper than paying cash fares.

Our perspective as AGR members is that it can be a great value. Amtrak's perspective is that it's costing them too much. I'm pretty sure they're willing to reevaluate everything, including club membership. I mean - if a thousand people worked within a block of NYP and had Select+ memberships and wished to use ClubAcela every work day rather than getting breakfast, lunch, or dinner, I'd think they'd start rethinking that pretty quickly.

Honestly - if there were a club at EMY (too small a station however) I would absolutely be cleaning them out on a regular basis. That's kind of human nature to try and extract as much as possible from as little as possible.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Or, to put it another way, assuming a big devaluation is coming, Amtrak is saying that ridership is up enough that they no longer have to care about alienating their most loyal customer base. Or, yet another way, *ANOTHER* reason to not ride Amtrak. :help:

That said, I wonder, with all the points from credit cards, credit card bonuses, point bonus sales, partnership points - all those that are obtained not actually riding Amtrak - sitting around in member's accounts, what Amtrak's liability for AGR is on their financials? A sharp devaluation of points would be a two edged sword that slices and dices and bleeds that dollar amount down to a shadow of its former self.

At this point it seems likely that one more time Mr. Boardman will be biting one of the two hand that feeds him - the one which isn't a bully and doesn't carry the big budgetary axe. Way to go!


----------



## Shortline

Personally, I am looking forward to the changes. I never liked the "zone" redemptions. Sure, if you really worked the system you could come up with long trips for few points, but for real travel, it all depended on where you were going. Sure it was nice, being able to book a reward ticket just before departure at high bucket. But usually I use points for planned trips. So for me, I would rather book a low bucket ticket, with points based on the price of the ticket, vs how many imaginary lines I cross. Case in point, we usually take a 2 night trip each year, OKC-FTW-CHI-NOL, with 2 bedrooms. That 2 night trip, with a 2 room suite cost us. 40,000 points. I just booked a trip, CHI-SAC, also a 2 night trip, with 2 room suite, that cost us 80,000 points. Ironically, the trip that takes half the points, typically costs twice as much, if booked with cash. Go figure. Doesn't make sense. All this moving rooms in the middle of the night at Wolf Point, Toledo, etc, is crazy. Just tell me how many points I need, to go from point A to point B.

To be fair, I'm used to this kind of program. About a year and half ago, I switched from Delta, to Southwest, primarily because of Southwest's rewards program. I love being able to book a rewards flight based on fare, vs the usual 25000/40000/50000 point buckets for normal rewards. Just makes more sense to me. If I want a good deal, I book early. If I can't, I can still book, just costs me more in points, for late notice trips. But I think this is a good move for Amtrak, and will make it easier to book multi-zone trips in some cases. We'll see I guess, but I'm actually a bit optimistic about this change.


----------



## NorthShore

Could there be an equalization factor which plays itself out, eventually?

Redemption values decline. Sleeper car bookings on AGR decline. More space opens up in sleeper cars for cash paying customers. Accommodation prices decline in an attempt to fill up the empty space. Which, in turn adds redemption value back in.

Further, perhaps there becomes greater incentive to book coach or business class on AGR. Which fills up cars. Which allows Amtrak to raise prices for cash paying customers.


----------



## benale

The 100 point minimum is the reason I can use points to book a roomette every couple of years. I'm semi retired with not a lot of disposable income and using point runs, especially during Double Days has been quite beneficial. We just returned from a 40,000 point trip..two two zones. I hope these days aren't numbered. I've been an AGR member for years and have been taking Amtrak for over 25 years on cross country pleasure trips.

Guess we'll have to wait another week and a half to get all the info.


----------



## BCL

The Davy Crockett said:


> S+ & SE members are probably going to want to burn up some of their built up points in the next year. I wonder if that will diminish their numbers in 2016 and/or 2017?


I'm S+. I've got a bit over 30,000 points and none transferred or bought. Maybe I'll use a few, but I'm still taking a wait and see attitude.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Back in 2013 I did get to ask if AGR was making money.

A) "Hell yes we make money." *But not on ever trip. The amount Chase pay us (Amtrak) makes us profitable, but the full cost is not always charge to AGR.

Don't like the way he put this, but he was quite certain that Amtrak was making money from the AGR program.

I also ask about the zone map, and why it was set up that way. Two zone from Chicago to NYC, but add a leg to Dallas TX, and it the same two zone trip. Two nights / two trains vs one night / one train. The weakness of a zone system vs a per trip / night. Gave the route of Arizona to Montana trip 4 nights in a sleeper for the price of a one zone reward as a really bad abuse of the system.

B) The Zone system was base on the old travel America map. While no current plan to change (in 2013), he does agree change may occur, and agreed with the weak points of the system.

So the devil in the details, but getting rid of the zone loop hole is something I can support. More trips to Chicago from Utica to get deep dish pizza.

YMMV


----------



## BCL

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> B) The Zone system was base on the old travel America map. While no current plan to change (in 2013), he does agree change may occur, and agreed with the weak points of the system.


Zones aren't really that unusual. A lot of commuter train systems use such maps, such as Caltrain. However, it did seem kind of strange to me that one could cover 9 stations within a single zone, but a short trip from Sunnyvale to Lawrence would be two zones.







However, Amtrak already has point to point specific pricing. Why they need zone maps for awards redemptions just seems odd - at least for the

I'd be OK with a revenue proportional redemption for LD trains and flat rate for the special routes. I like the idea of encouraging members to maximize the use of these routes. I do wonder if and how they might tweak thruway buses and the like.


----------



## abcnews

Nice map!

BTW I wish this... That they start their new plan and points system, but also allow for the old US zone awards to be used - but with some new restrictions...

*Must book 48 hours or less, based on availability

*Booking fee - maybe $100 for two zone awards. $50 for one zone, and make the fee non refundable.

That gives Amtrak some additional revenue from those Zone award fees, but it would allow us to continue pulling off those long two zone awards - when space is available. And they can at least attempt to sell every roomette and bedroom up until 48 hours prior to departure. Then after that - allow use of AGR zone awards for the remaining rooms and seats.


----------



## BCL

abcnews said:


> Nice map!
> 
> BTW I wish this... That they start their new plan and points system, but also allow for the old US zone awards to be used - but with some new restrictions...
> 
> *Must book 48 hours or less, based on availability
> 
> *Booking fee - maybe $100 for two zone awards. $50 for one zone, and make the fee non refundable.
> 
> That gives Amtrak some additional revenue from those Zone award fees, but it would allow us to continue pulling off those long two zone awards - when space is available. And they can at least attempt to sell every roomette and bedroom up until 48 hours prior to departure. Then after that - allow use of AGR zone awards for the remaining rooms and seats.


I'd hope that your proposal is only for sleepers. When I booked a one-zone coach redemption, it was only $130 retail price. If it was low bucket it would have been less than $100.


----------



## abcnews

Yes, sleeper Awards. And I could see them even making the awards available with 7 days (or less) before departure. Then if your riding on a free ticket in a bedroom, you most likely did not cause Amtrak to miss out on selling the accommodation. After all, they seem to have a need to improve the sleeper revenue as much as possible.

When I traveled by air on a regular basis, the airlines that I frequented the most would allow me to ride in First Class if they had extra seats available. In that case it was complimentary, based on availability at flight time. It also strengthened my loyalty to those particular air carriers.


----------



## AC4400

I'm also curious about the Select/Select Plus status. Will there be any change related to status?


----------



## yarrow

The Davy Crockett said:


> Or, to put it another way, assuming a big devaluation is coming, Amtrak is saying that ridership is up enough that they no longer have to care about alienating their most loyal customer base. Or, yet another way, *ANOTHER* reason to not ride Amtrak. :help:
> 
> At this point it seems likely that one more time Mr. Boardman will be biting one of the two hand that feeds him - the one which isn't a bully and doesn't carry the big budgetary axe. Way to go!


nicely put. them that's got the gold makes the rules(or at least the rules are made for their benefit).


----------



## dlagrua

This all sounds like a "more for me" less for you scheme. LD sleeper prices are already expensive and require much spending to get the points. The rooms get more decrepid by the day and the prices continue to rise. some of the bedrooms that we have been in of late had ripped seats, ripped curtains, a filthy carpet, loose bolsters that rattled, a bad latch on the bathroom door and one even had no light in the bathroom. The food quality is declining and the ride is getting worse. We will need to think twice before using many more points for the same garbage. This is a disgrace.


----------



## jebr

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'm going to wait and see what the program _actually will be _before I decide whether to scream that the sky is falling with AGR 2.0

All we know at this point is that it's going to be a revenue-based redemption system. We don't know if that will be a huge devaluation of points, or whether it'll be a net neutral for many trips. I'm 99.9% sure that it will be a negative for those who make sleeper trips when rooms are at high bucket between Wolf Point and El Paso. But the vast majority of people don't make those trips, and I'm not sold it's going to be a huge devaluation of points for most trips. Probably will be some devaluation during high bucket season or trips that are very advantageous in the current zone system, but for those who are poorly located within the zone system or want to make shorter redemptions could very well see a net positive with the change.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ah, hope springs eternal with the young which is great!

As an old geezer, who has been through lots of "New and Improved" Corporate Loyalty Programs, I'm skeptical and from Missouri! Show me! YMMV


----------



## jis

The way I see it, we can sit around and moan and speculate and get our blood pressures up and all that, or sit back and get the full information and then either be able to discover a niche where the new setup works for us, and use it, or if there is no such niche just forget about it and go on with life. There is not much that we can do to change things except in the periphery, and in order to effectively do that using meaningful feedback, first it is necessary to have sufficient facts at our disposal, which we currently don't.


----------



## BCL

jis said:


> The way I see it, we can sit around and moan and speculate and get our blood pressures up and all that, or sit back and get the full information and then either be able to discover a niche where the new setup works for us, and use it, or if there is no such niche just forget about it and go on with life. There is not much that we can do to change things except in the periphery, and in order to effectively do that using meaningful feedback, first it is necessary to have sufficient facts at our disposal, which we currently don't.


Yeah - but what fun is that when we can't really speculate how any changes might benefit or hurt us individually.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jebr said:


> Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'm going to wait and see what the program _actually will be _before I decide whether to scream that the sky is falling with AGR 2.0


I don't see anyone _screaming_ about the sky falling.

When members express apprehension or dismay over these changes those are perfectly reasonable concerns in my view. I've been playing the points game for a long time. I have flown hundreds of thousands of miles across dozens of airlines, hired cars from every major rental company, and visited literally hundreds of hotels across dozens of brands all over the world. I have more points earning credit cards than I have fingers and I have more loyalty accounts than I could hope to name in one sitting. In other words I believe I know a thing or two about how loyalty programs work in the real world far away from the steering committee's echo chamber.

If you want to wait to say anything then by all means wait. If you want to debate the merits of a revenue based system today then by all means join the discussion. Just don't claim to be patiently waiting while simultaneously scolding those who are willing to express their concerns now. It's true that we don't really know how this is going to play out but we do know that 99% of significant program changes have historically been tied to devalutions of one form or another. Once the full story is out there may not be enough time or enough rooms available to provide everyone with a chance to make use of the current rules at the current rate if that suits them better than whatever comes next.


----------



## SteveSFL

I agree with Devil's Advocate. I'm one who is planning my 2016 trips now rather than "waiting to see what will happen."

Although it would not be very customer friendly of Amtrak, there is nothing that would prevent them from making an announcement in 2 weeks that says "effective immediately, award reservations for all travel beginning on or after January 1, 2016, will be under the new awards structure."

In the unlikely event of a sudden change in cabin pressure that the new program is better than the old one, I can always cancel and rebook.


----------



## dlagrua

abcnews said:


> Yes, sleeper Awards. And I could see them even making the awards available with 7 days (or less) before departure. Then if your riding on a free ticket in a bedroom, you most likely did not cause Amtrak to miss out on selling the accommodation. After all, they seem to have a need to improve the sleeper revenue as much as possible.
> 
> When I traveled by air on a regular basis, the airlines that I frequented the most would allow me to ride in First Class if they had extra seats available. In that case it was complimentary, based on availability at flight time. It also strengthened my loyalty to those particular air carriers.


Amtrak is always selling the accomodations and receiving revenue. You are talking like they are free. if you use AGR points the retaillers are paying for your trip using a percentage of your purchase.


----------



## Dan O

abcnews said:


> Yes, sleeper Awards. And I could see them even making the awards available with 7 days (or less) before departure. Then if your riding on a free ticket in a bedroom, you most likely did not cause Amtrak to miss out on selling the accommodation. After all, they seem to have a need to improve the sleeper revenue as much as possible.
> 
> When I traveled by air on a regular basis, the airlines that I frequented the most would allow me to ride in First Class if they had extra seats available. In that case it was complimentary, based on availability at flight time. It also strengthened my loyalty to those particular air carriers.


Hard to plan a vacation with that plan. I would not want to pay for hotel, game tickets etc and take a week off work to find out my plan fell through.


----------



## chakk

While everyone's been talking, I've been booking -- sleeper travel in two zones, plus another sleeper trip in one zone, for 2016. I am confident that, once confirmed, Amtrak will honor any and all UNCHANGED reservations, without increasing the points required. And if by some miracle the amount of points required for my confirmed reservations goes down, then I am certain that Amtrak will allow cancellations and rebooking at the "miracle" lower rates.


----------



## SteveSFL

I wonder if I could book a 2016 trip now with just my name on the reservation and then add second passenger later after the new program has been announced. I don't have a problem planning trips way in the future but those who might join me are not quite as forward thinking.


----------



## chakk

I put the second passenger name in on all of my future reservations. Even if they decide not to join me, I remain convinced that Amtrak won't kick me off the train because the second passenger booked for the room is a no-show.


----------



## SteveSFL

I would do that, but I don't know yet which of the several people might join me.


----------



## NorthShore

Me, me, me, me, me!


----------



## BCL

SteveSTX said:


> I would do that, but I don't know yet which of the several people might join me.


My understanding is that discounted group tickets only require the name of the group leader. However, I suppose that doesn't work for regular tickets or AGR redemptions.


----------



## Ryan

He's talking about a group of 2, not 20.

If you really want to, slap a name on it now and if you need to change it later, you should be able to do that.


----------



## yarrow

what is an "open sleeper ticket"? never tried to do it but i thought it would cover the 2nd person even if, at the time of making the reservation, you are unsure who it will be


----------



## Ryan

It still has to have a name attached to it.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

My computer is being difficult and I can't seem to quote posts these days, but, to Just-Thinking-51's post (#181) about AGR making a profit:

When Amtrak says AGR is making a profit, I can't help but wonder if this claim is about as accurate as Amtrak claiming the NEC makes a profit: Sure it is making a profit, as long as one does not factor in all the actual costs!!! :lol:


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

One did not look at the books myself. However it was a follow up question to the Town Hall meeting. Source is solid, and answer back with out pause.

Does anyone really think Amtrak understands it own accounting?


----------



## inspiration100

I'm not going to sit around and wait till Sept 1st and see what happens. I just booked 2 two zone trips and 1 one zone trip for next year. Since you can cancel without any loss of points, why not?


----------



## fairviewroad

Alice said:


> Well, I have seen premium gas cheaper than regular. It was on a cross country road trip a few years ago in several small towns in the midwest, following the tracks instead of the interstate. I noted the pump price, asked if it were a mistake, and was told it was accurate. That is the only time my car saw premium.


<warning: off-topic post>

You can thank ethanol subsidies for this phenomenon. The "premium" gas is a higher octane but is an ethanol blend. The "regular" gas is ethanol-free but is a lower octane. Since ethanol is subsidized, the "premium" gas is cheaper than the regular. Generally speaking, ethanol-blends run less efficiently so the cheaper price is probably offset by the lower mileage/gallon.

In my home state, ethanol-free gas is only offered at a handful of stations due to state law, and as such is considerably more expensive due to a lack of economies of scale. So when I drove through Iowa earlier this month, I gladly paid an extra 20 cents a gallon for ethanol-free fuel, which meant I had to fill up less often...a big plus when you want to drive a long distance.


----------



## Trainmans daughter

inspiration100 said:


> I'm not going to sit around and wait till Sept 1st and see what happens. I just booked 2 two zone trips and 1 one zone trip for next year. Since you can cancel without any loss of points, why not?


Me too! I was tired of spending time speculating and worrying about what might happen. We were already planning a trip next June from SAC to NYP. We were short a few points, so we bought what we needed at the 30% bonus offer and I made the reservations yesterday.


----------



## Notelvis

Booked at Points trip for March just yesterday......... and have enough (under current accounting) points remaining for another two single zone roomette trips or one single zone bedroom trip with 5,000 points leftover.

I would imagine that I will book at least one more trip for 2016 before the announcement is made.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

I just booked a lengthy trip myself, but that still doesn't mean I don't like what is more than likely coming down the tracks.

Maybe I'm 'special,' :blink: , but I can gripe and redeem at the same time!


----------



## oregon pioneer

jis said:


> The way I see it, we can sit around and moan and speculate and get our blood pressures up and all that, or sit back and get the full information and then either be able to discover a niche where the new setup works for us, and use it, or if there is no such niche just forget about it and go on with life. There is not much that we can do to change things except in the periphery, and in order to effectively do that using meaningful feedback, first it is necessary to have sufficient facts at our disposal, which we currently don't.


I am in the "wait-and-see" group myself, because there are some trips I want to take that I would use points for but it has not been advantageous with the zone system. I also admit to having "gamed" the system to some extent, though I am not in a position to take maximum advantage.

I enjoy reading the speculation, since I consider you all to be experienced travelers who are quite capable of making good, educated guesses.

:hi:

Thanks for the conversation, because I learn something every time I read this board.


----------



## Rail Freak

oregon pioneer said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way I see it, we can sit around and moan and speculate and get our blood pressures up and all that, or sit back and get the full information and then either be able to discover a niche where the new setup works for us, and use it, or if there is no such niche just forget about it and go on with life. There is not much that we can do to change things except in the periphery, and in order to effectively do that using meaningful feedback, first it is necessary to have sufficient facts at our disposal, which we currently don't.
> 
> 
> 
> I am in the "wait-and-see" group myself, because there are some trips I want to take that I would use points for but it has not been advantageous with the zone system. I also admit to having "gamed" the system to some extent, though I am not in a position to take maximum advantage.
> 
> I enjoy reading the speculation, since I consider you all to be experienced travelers who are quite capable of making good, educated guesses.
> 
> :hi:
> 
> Thanks for the conversation, because I learn something every time I read this board.
Click to expand...

DITTO !!!!


----------



## SteveSFL

Booked:

STP-NYP-CHI-HOS for October

ELP-CHI-WAS-ATL for February

SAC-CHI-NOL for May

That about uses up the points. Of course with the current AGR Mastercard, it's impossible to completely use up your points because you get that rebate with every redemption!


----------



## seat38a

Well it looks like they updated the site with official info for the new program. 100 point minimum gone  But with the business class bonus, I'll still be loosing points :angry:


----------



## SteveSFL

So redemption is going to be 34.5 points per dollar of fare. So a bedroom for two people from wolf point to Denver was 25k and now would be about 92k

But a roomette from Chicago to Seattle for one person was 20k and now could be had for as low as 14,559 points.

10% points penalty on cancellations (and changes?).


----------



## SteveSFL

If my calculations are correct, points are valued at 2.89 cents each (for Amtrak travel, but we all know that sleeper travel is a bit steeply prices at times).

Interestingly enough, points cost 3.77 cents each when buying with no bonus, but with a 30% bonus they end up costing...........drum roll.............2.89 cents!


----------



## JayPea

From the looks of it, it turns out about like I figured. My uncle and I go on one big trip a year with one of us using points for one portion of the trip and the other using points for the other portion. We have been able to redeem bedrooms for that price; we will probably be back to roommettes now. Well, I can live with that.


----------



## SteveSFL

Redemptions can continue under the current system until January 24, 2016

Looks like Acela travel requires 40 points per $ which gives a value of 2.5 cents per point.


----------



## Ryan

New rules go into effect on 24 January, so a decent amount of time to get some last points runs in and make zone based reservations.

"Up to two children (ages 2-12) may be redeemed at half the rail fare for each adult in the reservation. Infants (under age 2) may travel without a ticket, but if a separate seat is desired for an infant, points must be redeemed according to the child rate policy."

I should have expected this, bring revenue based, but as a father of two, this is a good change.


----------



## SteveSFL

Yep and we will be able to make our 2016 calendar year points purchase before the change too. Hope for a bonus in early January. As I recall, the bonus usually ends on Dec 31.


----------



## Ryan

Redemption is 39 points on the dollar for Acela (business and first), vice the 34.5 for other services.


----------



## rtabern

As someone who did point runs to maintain Select Plus status... I am sad to see these changes and devaluation of my points. A horrible change to AGR in my opinion. I have 280,000 points left. I will enjoy Select Plus for 2016... but will never see it again after 2/28/17. If I have to drop $5000 a year on travel to maintain S+... no thanks. Id rather just pay for annual legacy club membership in Chicago and use that 5000 dollars on the Canadian, a much more enjoyable experience. Atleast I have 4 months to widdle my balance as close to 0 as possible under the old zone system. Looks like AGR and Amtrak will be losing us as customers and a 10 year Select Plus member. More road trips and when I need my train fix... VIA. Will probably only ride short hauls around the Midwest when absolutely necessary.


----------



## Jim G.

The end of point runs...sad!


----------



## PRR 60

rtabern said:


> As someone who did point runs to maintain Select Plus status... I am sad to see these changes and devaluation of my points. A horrible change to AGR in my opinion. I have 280,000 points left. I will enjoy Select Plus for 2016... but will never see it again after 2/28/17. If I have to drop $5000 a year on travel to maintain S+... no thanks. Id rather just pay for annual legacy club membership in Chicago and use that 5000 dollars on the Canadian, a much more enjoyable experience. Atleast I have 4 months to widdle my balance as close to 0 as possible under the old zone system. Looks like AGR and Amtrak will be losing us as customers and a 10 year Select Plus member. More road trips and when I need my train fix... VIA. Will probably only ride short hauls around the Midwest when absolutely necessary.



If you are S+ going into 2016, you get a 50% Tier Point bonus on all paid travel (25% for S, and 100% for SE). $3334 in paid travel will be required to maintain S+ into 2017. 

With the new program kicking in on January 24, I can see a lot of low cost points runs taking place in the first three weeks of January.

EDIT: A clarification has been received from AGR. The earned elite bonus points will NOT be considered tier qualifying points.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Are bonus points now going to be TQPs? It doesn't seem to indicate that on the "Sneak Preview" that I could tell.


----------



## George K

So, lemme get this straight. The number of points i need for travel is dependent upon the fare - "revenue based" - right?

IOW, the number of points I need to travel varies with the bucket, is that right?


----------



## rtabern

The Davy Crockett said:


> Are bonus points now going to be TQPs? It doesn't seem to indicate that on the "Sneak Preview" that I could tell.


Agreed. Where do you see that PRR? Tier bonus now getting bonuses toward maintaining statuses?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

And if true, it would be a regressive system and would certainly keep people from trying to get to the next tier.

PS: Hi Robert!


----------



## pennyk

rtabern said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are bonus points now going to be TQPs? It doesn't seem to indicate that on the "Sneak Preview" that I could tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Where do you see that PRR? Tier bonus now getting bonuses toward maintaining statuses?
Click to expand...

Under redeem points. I will try to copy, but I'm not sure how it will show up.



> 2016 POINTS ESTIMATORSelect your tier status, and enter your class of service and ticket price to see what your points are worth. The points estimator is a guide to how many points you could earn or redeem for Amtrak travel.
> 
> CLASS OF SERVICE
> Coach
> Business
> Sleeping Car
> Business - Acela
> First - Acela
> SINGLE LEG TICKET PRICE$ESTIMATE
> 
> MEMBER TIER
> MEMBER
> SELECT25% TIER POINT BONUS
> SELECT PLUS℠50% TIER POINT BONUS
> SELECT EXECUTIVE100% TIER POINT BONUS
> 
> EARN
> 1,200POINTS
> REDEEM
> 13,800POINTS
> 
> Where will your points take you?
> 
> 
> Estimates based on ticket price/class of service. Point estimates are based on single train ticket for a single passenger and should be used for estimating purposes only. Not all fares will qualify for point earning and redeeming.


----------



## George K

Ah! Here's something I like:



> Coming in 2016, you‘ll be offered a combination of points and cash during the booking process for tickets, so you can spend less of both.


I've had that option for hotels and it's worked out well for me. Nice to see that I have the option of either or both for planning.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

So basically to keep your tier you will have to either swallow the devaluation; or be retired, independently wealthy, have a job you can do 'on the road,' or quit one's job. so one can do a heck of a lot of riding.

PS: Where are my manners? :blush: THANKS Penny!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

The Davy Crockett said:


> So basically to keep your tier you will have to either swallow the devaluation; or be retired, independently wealthy, have a job you can do 'on the road,' or quit one's job. so one can do a heck of a lot of riding


So, which is it for you TDC?


----------



## rrdude

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> So basically to keep your tier you will have to either swallow the devaluation; or be retired, independently wealthy, have a job you can do 'on the road,' or quit one's job. so one can do a heck of a lot of riding
> 
> 
> 
> So, which is it for you TDC?
Click to expand...

Don't let Davy fool you......... He's been a "kept man" for years. He just rides wherever and whenever the urge hits him!

btw, I booked this two weeks ago:


San Diego-Klamath Falls (Family Bedroom)
Visit with Family, camp in Redwoods.......
Klamath Falls-Sacramento, Sacramento-Chicago, Chicago-Baltimore Penn, via Cardinal (Bedroom)
Down to about 8K points

I cannot say I'm uber disappointed in the new AGR. It's pretty much what I expected, paralleling South West and others. I do like the NO BLACKOUT, and "Cash+Points" options.......

For long rides within one zone, like the Wolf Point to Denver, it's a real bummer for those who used to redeem that as a "Single Zone".


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Now Dude, be nice! 

I 'fell of the cliff' last year and didn't even make Select. They gave me a soft landing to Select from S+, but I'm going to burn points and not even make Select this year.

VIA, OTOH....


----------



## PRR 60

rtabern said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are bonus points now going to be TQPs? It doesn't seem to indicate that on the "Sneak Preview" that I could tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Where do you see that PRR? Tier bonus now getting bonuses toward maintaining statuses?
Click to expand...

Go to the "2016 Points Estimator." The "Member Tier" columns for the elite levels are labeled "xx% Tier Point Bonus." To me, that means the 50% bonus points for Select Plus will be considered Tier Points. I guess it is worth checking on that. *Sometimes AGR and Amtrak use language that is not exactly precise.*

EDIT: and that is exactly what happened here. The earned tier bonus points will not count toward tier status qualification.


----------



## rrdude

Maybe I missed this in the "fine print"

Say I book X Trip 11 months out, and the sleeper fare is $345. Then I check back 6 weeks out, and the same sleeper fare is $295.


Currently, if I call the Amtrak Rezzy center, and ask them to re-price, I'll either get a refund, OR, an e-voucher for the difference. How will they handle this with points being LINKED to cost?


----------



## jis

*So can we somehow convince the AU Gathering Committee to decide the location and dates for the 2016 Gathering before Jan 24th?*

I removed the part I had posted trying to make the point that the FAQ says nothing about tier point when it talks about bonus. Since it appears to have enhanced the confusion rather than reduce, I removed the entire lot of it.

The more important point remains that if the AU Gathering dates and location becomes available by the 24th of Jan, I can do a free round trip using current redemption rules. But if not then it will probably be the big silver bird and not Amtrak, unless of course, I get a big bonus this year, and decide to avail of that opportunity to make a tier or two using paid tickets.

Admittedly, the points and dollars thing might make some of the western LD travel more palatable than just a points based thing possibly. So we'll have to see how it works out when the full details are available.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

But jis, that only covers Business class and Acela.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Well, as was said,it's about what I expected! Let's just say that the way I see it, most of us won't be riding Amtrak as much, and as for obtaining status, that will be much pricier and will see the numbers of members retaining/obtaining status really plummet.

It's Good for business and affluent travelers, bad for those of us that paid for point runs and like to share redemption travel with others.

The 10% and 20% Cancellation/Modification Point Penalty seems especially Draconian! This really rewards only the High Roller SE Members! Seems fair right? NOT!!!

The rush to book trips at the old redemption before the Jan. 2016 deadline should make for some full Trains on the popular and scenic Routes, and also see many more of us riding in Roomettes instead of Bedrooms.

Also I'm thinking that since the 100 Point Minimum is going away on point runs, that the numbers in Coach for "shorts" out here in flyover country where there are so few trains, and off the Corridors, will really be declining!

Just like Rob and Kandace, looks like I'll be doing my Long Trips on VIA ( in the Winter when they are affordable) instead of Amtrak, and definitely using SWA,Alaska Airlines, Mega Bus and even Driving for my shorter trips like Day trips! I too will not be seeing any Status with AGR but mine will be ending 2/28/16.

Now we await the details on the new AGR Credit Cards, this seems to be our only hope for any good news out of this "New and Improved" AGR2.0.

Welcome to the continuing saga of "Let's copy the Airlines!" from Amtrak and AGR.

As old Walter used to say, "And that's the way it is!" It sure was fun while it lasted!!!! Sigh


----------



## pennyk

PRR 60 said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are bonus points now going to be TQPs? It doesn't seem to indicate that on the "Sneak Preview" that I could tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Where do you see that PRR? Tier bonus now getting bonuses toward maintaining statuses?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go to the "2016 Points Estimator." The "Member Tier" columns for the elite levels are labeled "xx% Tier Point Bonus." To me, that means the 50% bonus points for Select Plus will be considered Tier Points. I guess it is worth checking on that. Sometimes AGR and Amtrak use language that is not exactly precise.
Click to expand...

Bill, I think we both may have misinterpreted.


----------



## PRR 60

pennyk said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are bonus points now going to be TQPs? It doesn't seem to indicate that on the "Sneak Preview" that I could tell.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. Where do you see that PRR? Tier bonus now getting bonuses toward maintaining statuses?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go to the "2016 Points Estimator." The "Member Tier" columns for the elite levels are labeled "xx% Tier Point Bonus." To me, that means the 50% bonus points for Select Plus will be considered Tier Points. I guess it is worth checking on that. Sometimes AGR and Amtrak use language that is not exactly precise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bill, I think we both may have misinterpreted.
Click to expand...

Yep, we have. I changed my prior absolutely wrong posts.


----------



## Paulus

Much more useful for corridor service I think, especially with the monthly pass redemptions.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I don't think it's too bad of a points devaluation even for someone like me (living in S. Florida) who benefits from the way the zones are set up. Using the estimator, a low bucket roomette on SM to DC is just a hair under 15k points.

I'll be interested to see how the pay+points thing works out. I also like no more blackouts. I'll wait and see, but after I burn up my points now I'll probably misty use my points for coach travel in the future.

As much as I like the current system, the move makes sense for Amtrak. The new one is a lot better than I expected, but I guess all the details aren't out yet.


----------



## printman2000

rrdude said:


> Maybe I missed this in the "fine print"
> 
> Say I book X Trip 11 months out, and the sleeper fare is $345. Then I check back 6 weeks out, and the same sleeper fare is $295.
> 
> 
> Currently, if I call the Amtrak Rezzy center, and ask them to re-price, I'll either get a refund, OR, an e-voucher for the difference. How will they handle this with points being LINKED to cost?





> Reward Ticket Modifications & Cancelations
> For modifications on one-way, round-trip or multi-segment reward travel, the following will apply:	Points difference (to new prevailing fare) will apply in all cases with a 10% points penalty withheld on any fare difference returned to member
> If modifying a non-sleeper ticket within 24 hours prior to departure, or a sleeper ticket within 14 days prior to departure, an additional "close-in" penalty of 10% of the points redeemed will be collected (waived for Select Executive).
> 
> [*]For modifications to reward travel on a multi-ride ticket, the following will apply:
> Before first ride, a full exchange in point value will be issued without penalty
> No exchange value in points after first ride or after expiry—whichever comes first
> 
> [*]For modifications to reward travel on a monthly pass, the following will apply:
> Full exchange value in points prior to valid month
> No exchange value in points on or after first day of valid month
> 
> [*]For cancelations on one-way, round-trip or multi-segment reward travel, the following will apply:
> A 10% points penalty is assessed for any refund (redeposit) back to the member account.
> If canceling a non-sleeper ticket within 24 hours prior to departure, or a sleeper ticket within 14 days prior to departure, an additional "close-in" penalty of 10% of the points redeemed will be collected (waived for Select Executive)
> 
> [*]For cancelations to reward travel on a multi-ride ticket, the following will apply:
> Points are refunded minus 10% point penalty if unused and unexpired
> Redemption non-refundable if first trip used or if ticket expired
> 
> [*]For cancelations to reward travel on a monthly pass, the following will apply:
> Points are refunded—minus 10% point penalty—prior to first day of valid month
> Redemption is non-refundable on or after first day of valid month
> 
> [*]A "no-show" for any segment will result in forfeiture of points and travel for that segment, as well as all subsequent segments in the itinerary. A "no-show" is defined as a passenger's failure to travel on a segment from its origin without first canceling that portion of the itinerary.


----------



## jis

The new scheme will encourage people to forgo discounts when they need just that extra few points to vault a tier line.

Also, it naturally takes care of issues like, how do you handle a Sleeper that does not include meals for the purposes of redemption. It will naturally cost fewer points.

On the whole this is really good for Amtrak from basic revenue recognition perspective and also simplifies the administration of the AGR program and cost accounting it.

Now only if they'd make it possible to buy sleeping accommodation without food packaged into the fare without removing the Diner from the train, thus allowing one to use the Diner when they want/need it. I think they may be able to command a slightly higher fare on a train with Diner than one without, even when food is not included in the ticket.

The 7,000-ish points needed for a low bucket Roomette in Dinerless Star from KIS to NYP looks pretty good! Of course by then except for a few days in late Jan, the Diner will be back and we will be upto 12,000-ish instead. That would be a lot of food for 6,000 points!


----------



## printman2000

I just used the points esitmator and checked on my next years trip (1 zone) and my last years trip (2 zone). Both actually used fewer points thant the zone system. Of course, that is as they are priced right now. If the prices go up, that very well could change. But both were 5000-7000 fewer points.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Davy Crockett said:


> But jis, that only covers Business class and Acela.


Yep, and How fair is that? The most expensive tickets, Sleeping Cars, dont earn a Bonus!

Only the "desired" Corridor passengers that ride on Acela and in Business Class and have their tickets paid for by someone else!

Sounds like whoever planned this thinks civilization ends @ the Potomac!


----------



## George K

printman2000 said:


> I just used the points esitmator and checked on my next years trip (1 zone) and my last years trip (2 zone). Both actually used fewer points thant the zone system. Of course, that is as they are priced right now. If the prices go up, that very well could change. But both were 5000-7000 fewer points.


My April trip to Portland and back from CHI (bedroom) is now 28K points more.


----------



## NorthShore

Has anyone else gotten the "Warning, Will Robinson" error message with the points calculator?

The elimination of the 100 point minimum is definitely a disincentive to taking Amtrak over alternative bus or any available commuter rail options. I'll be going Greyhound (and saving money over Amtrak fares) on future trips to Milwaukee (and, likely, other Midwest/Chicago daytrip travel related sites.)


----------



## City of Miami

jimhudson said:


> ......and definitely using SWA......


For us 'bottom feeders', as Jis so delicately put it :hi: , Southwest Airlines has not offered many bargains for a long time. I can amost always find other options of cheaper and often shorter flights.

I had myself under the gun to make reservations by this weekend to avoid a possibly immediate devaluation. It's a relief to have a few more months to decide, especially since I want a trip next Aug which is not available yet.

For LD trips I have in mind it will be a davaluation of between ~17% and ~60%, depending on the price of the ticket when I pull the trigger. However going to Chicago from Charlottesville will now be about the cost of 1 zone insteand of 2 zone, again depending on when I purchase.

'Modification' of a reservation and the consequent 10% penalty in refund could include re-pricing due to Amtrak price reduction for the same ticket and could not AFAICT.


----------



## willem

George K said:


> My April trip to Portland and back from CHI (bedroom) is now 28K points more.


But to be fair, you would need to have made the calculation using the price in effect at the time you made the reservation.

If you have yet to make your reservation, do it before the new program and enjoy your 28,000 points!


----------



## City of Miami

NorthShore said:


> Has anyone else gotten the "Warning, Will Robinson" error message with the points calculator?


Yes. I then changed from IE to Firefox and it was OK again.


----------



## willem

NorthShore said:


> Has anyone else gotten the "Warning, Will Robinson" error message with the points calculator?


Yes. Once I got the error message, I got it for every calculation until I closed the tab and opened a new tab.


----------



## Kat314159

So much for me ever achieving status. I might make the run for S+ this year just so that when I don't make it in 2016 I show up on thier books as a lost member with status. With the removal of 100 points I wish they'd make it something like x tqp or x segments this year.


----------



## HenryK

For the hell of it, I priced a single fare adult roomette ticket on No. 5 from Chicago to Emeryville departing Feb. 3, 2016. That comes to $467, which I think is lowest bucket. The points calculator says that ride at that price would take 16,112 points . . . quite a bit fewer than the 20,000 required in the two-zone system.


----------



## Manny T

Folks, if earning points stays the same (with the elimination of the 100 point minimum), and redemption depends on ticket price, we travelers have some control over ticket price by choosing when to travel and how far in advance to make the reservation. In comparison with the current AGR program, net net under the new regime sometimes you will win, sometimes you will lose.

One example: Roomette CHI-East Coast -- current 2 zone redemption requires 20,000 points.

New AGR program:

If the ticket price is $400, you will need 13,800 points (less than before).

If the ticket price is $750, you will need 25,875 points (more than before).

So if there are some downsides to the new program rules, I would guess they could generally be overcome by shopping for low ticket prices.


----------



## Paulus

jimhudson said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> But jis, that only covers Business class and Acela.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, and How fair is that? The most expensive tickets, Sleeping Cars, dont earn a Bonus!
> Only the "desired" Corridor passengers that ride on Acela and in Business Class and have their tickets paid for by someone else!
> 
> Sounds like whoever planned this thinks civilization ends @ the Potomac!
Click to expand...

Per passenger mile sleepers are cheaper than many corridors and much much cheaper than Acela. Average fares per passenger on the Acela are higher than average sleeper fares on several routes for that matter.


----------



## Manny T

Here's another comparison that involves the 100 point minimum:

Chicago-Milwaukee fare is $24. Current program you earn 100 points. "Special route" Hiawatha reward costs 1,500 points.

New AGR program: you will earn 48 points. Reward will cost 828 points (according to calculator).

To earn a free CHI-MKE ticket, under the current program you'd need 15 rides (15 x 100 = 1,500), at a cost of $360.

Under the new program, you'd need about 18 rides at a cost of $432.


----------



## jis

jimhudson said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> But jis, that only covers Business class and Acela.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, and How fair is that? The most expensive tickets, Sleeping Cars, dont earn a Bonus!
> 
> Only the "desired" Corridor passengers that ride on Acela and in Business Class and have their tickets paid for by someone else!
> 
> Sounds like whoever planned this thinks civilization ends @ the Potomac!
Click to expand...

I agree that Sleeping Class not getting a bonus is a bit odd. I'd expect it to get some bonus, perhaps at BC level.

OTOH, the comment about Potomac is just a bit of a rant, sorry to say. What is obvious is that corridor travel is being favored. There is plenty of BC service in corridors way beyond the Potomac, and as time progresses there are all sorts of opportunities to add First Class service elsewhere. OTOH If you want to argue fairness, how is it fare that the NEC Coach passenger pays through their nose on a per mile basis and gets no bonus. So stop whining.about Potomac. 

Then interesting anomaly will be on the Starlight where the BC folks will get a bonus while Sleeper won't, should the BC experiment become permanent.



HenryK said:


> For the hell of it, I priced a single fare adult roomette ticket on No. 5 from Chicago to Emeryville departing Feb. 3, 2016. That comes to $467, which I think is lowest bucket. The points calculator says that ride at that price would take 16,112 points . . . quite a bit fewer than the 20,000 required in the two-zone system.


I have found that in many scenarios/itineraries the lowest bucket fares come out to be better than zone based points requirements, and of course you make it like a bandit if traveling from NYP or WAS to Chicago since that eats up two zones. OTOH, you get slightly screwed on Florida to Chicago (by 5000 to 15000 in roomette depending on which bucket you get). This is where the points and dollars thing might come in to help a bit. In general more often than not we in Florida are screwed if we wish to go anywhere into zone 2 and beyond.


----------



## jebr

In that particular corridor (CHI - MKE,) if speed isn't a major issue, Greyhound will offer a free trip after 16 trips (and a ticket on Greyhound is $7-$17 for later today, depending on which schedule and how restrictive of a fare you're wanting to book.)

Granted, I don't think there will be much "conversion" to Greyhound due to this, but there may be some (like NorthShore.)


----------



## Manny T

It seems to me that instead of rushing to use up or whittle down the points in your AGR account before Jan. 26, 2016, the right course would be to comparison shop--determine how many points your trip will cost NOW vs. one taken AFTER the new program kicks in. It may be that the later trip (reserved further in advance) will eat up fewer points (because the ticket price will be less). Hence points in my account NOW will actually be worth more applied against a future trip under the new rules.


----------



## fairviewroad

jis said:


> Then interesting anomaly will be on the Starlight where the BC folks will get a bonus while Sleeper won't.


Only if the BC pilot program is extended. It's currently set to expire September 30, unless I missed something.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Here is a map of my previous trips reachable by Amtrak...




Even though I live in the middle of the country the vast majority of my personal travel involves destinations that are near or along the coasts. Knowing I could reach virtually any location Amtrak served at a cost of exactly 20,000 points made such trips extremely practical and helped overshadow many of Amtrak's other failings and shortcomings. With the Chase Ultimate Rewards exchange process and AGR's generous top-up bonuses I was able to ride as much or as little as I desired without much effort and at a fairly reasonable cost.

Recently the points earning process has taken a hit with higher costs and lower overall value. In addition the connection to Chase appears to be ending.Adding to those devaluations these same trips I used to redeem for exactly 20,000 points are going to cost me 50,000 points or more each way based on previous pricing. Maybe Amtrak thinks with the new rate hike I'll happily earn the same number of points while traveling half as much or less, but what Amtrak doesn't seem to realize (or perhaps simply doesn't care) is that when costs rise this much in a single devaluation the whole equation becomes extremely dissuasive.

Where are my new sweet spots? Beats the heck out of me. So far as I can tell passengers in my situation are basically SOL once the new program comes into effect.


----------



## jebr

I guess it depends on what you consider a "sweet spot." There's no real "sweet spot" if all of your redemptions were used on longer trips (and cash paid for cheaper trips) but the cheaper trips are now also cheaper with AGR - for example, SAS - LAX is only 11,247 each way on low bucket vs. 20,000. SAS - CHI is also a bit cheaper on low bucket: 12,179 vs. 15,000.


----------



## Kat314159

Devil's Advocate said:


> With the Chase Ultimate Rewards exchange process and AGR's generous top-up bonuses I was able to ride as much or as little as I desired without much effort and at a fairly reasonable cost.


Have we heard anything official that they will discontinue ultimate rewards transfers alongside the AGR MC. I had just opened a Sapphire Preferred last month


----------



## calwatch

Gary Leff, one of the prominent airline bloggers, explains it here at http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2015/08/27/amtraks-new-revenue-based-program-details-revealed-heres-what-it-will-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-4210752

You're looking at an effective 5.8% rebate on Amtrak travel, which in the grand scheme of things is pretty poor (although that doubles if you use the AGR credit card to a respectable 11.6%). Southwest is at a 8.6%-12% redemption rate (dependent on fare bucket), Virgin America is at about 12%, and Delta and United are at about the 8% range (converting the 5 points per dollar earned at the basic level to 25,000 point round trip saver level redemptions which cost around $400 round trip). On the other hand, Amtrak offers double points days and similar promotions which airlines almost never have.


----------



## Manny T

^ Good read. This is what Gary Leff says, and I think he's right: "You’re going to be getting a fairly consistent redemption rate per point, which will make some awards (where ticket cost is low) cheaper and other awards (where ticket cost is high) more expensive."


----------



## Anderson

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amtrak-guest-rewards/1705720-introducing-next-stop-amtrak-guest-rewards-2.html#post25336479

The best thing I can say about my opinion would be to say nothing. That isn't happening. I _can_ say that I wasn't terribly shocked by any of the changes, but it would have taken a lot to be shocked. My comments are in the link here since I don't want to say everything twice.


----------



## Anderson

calwatch said:


> Gary Leff, one of the prominent airline bloggers, explains it here at http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2015/08/27/amtraks-new-revenue-based-program-details-revealed-heres-what-it-will-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-4210752
> 
> You're looking at an effective 5.8% rebate on Amtrak travel, which in the grand scheme of things is pretty poor (although that doubles if you use the AGR credit card to a respectable 11.6%). Southwest is at a 8.6%-12% redemption rate (dependent on fare bucket), Virgin America is at about 12%, and Delta and United are at about the 8% range (converting the 5 points per dollar earned at the basic level to 25,000 point round trip saver level redemptions which cost around $400 round trip). On the other hand, Amtrak offers double points days and similar promotions which airlines almost never have.


My main points of reference are AGR and Virgin. AGR used to have the edge; Virgin now has it by a wide margin:

AGR gives you 2.9 cents per point, which translates into the following;

5.8 cents/dollar base

11.6 cents/dollar with the credit card _or_ Select Executive

17.4 cents/dollar with the credit card _and _Select Executive

Virgin gives you 2.2 cents per point (ish, it is complicated). However, because of how the earnings work "over there" you get:

11 cents/dollar base

17.6 cents/dollar with the credit card

20.35 cents/dollar with the credit card and Silver status

28.6 cents/dollar with the credit card and Gold status

So AGR has just become a _substantially_ worse program. I'm _very_ undecided as to what I'll bother with for status next year.


----------



## Manny T

Can someone explain how the new AGR is a "devaluation" if some reward trips are going to cost fewer points? I can now go CHI-NYP in a roomette for 13,800 points (sometimes) instead of 20,000 points (always), plus my earnings remain the same. Should I be unhappy about this change? I just have to pick the right date to travel on a redemption.


----------



## BCL

calwatch said:


> Gary Leff, one of the prominent airline bloggers, explains it here at http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2015/08/27/amtraks-new-revenue-based-program-details-revealed-heres-what-it-will-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-4210752
> 
> You're looking at an effective 5.8% rebate on Amtrak travel, which in the grand scheme of things is pretty poor (although that doubles if you use the AGR credit card to a respectable 11.6%). Southwest is at a 8.6%-12% redemption rate (dependent on fare bucket), Virgin America is at about 12%, and Delta and United are at about the 8% range (converting the 5 points per dollar earned at the basic level to 25,000 point round trip saver level redemptions which cost around $400 round trip). On the other hand, Amtrak offers double points days and similar promotions which airlines almost never have.


Being able to bring together Double Days, the 50% S+ bonus, the 100 point minimum, and multi-city made for some crazy points earning. I remember I'd make a EMY-OKJ-GAC trip with the 25% Levi's Stadium promotion (which wasn't limited to game days) and I'd get 200 TQPs and 500 total points for a spend total of $13.50. With the new system it's 26 TQPs and 65 total points.

Honestly - I can't see myself spending $2500 just to get to Select. I'm not sure how much I spent last year to reach Select Plus, but it was probably less than $1500, and it was exclusively commuting to work. Right now I'm thinking I'll just opt for the soft landing to Select and call it a day. Or maybe go on a binge anyways to collect points while the 100 point minimum is still available.

The loss of the special route redemptions seems to be a wash though. It's going to be marginally more for some of the longer trips, but now maybe I can justify using points for a short trip. Also - I have a kid and now I can use points with the 50% discount. Before I was thinking of just using the full redemption.


----------



## BCL

Manny T said:


> Can someone explain how the new AGR is a "devaluation" if some reward trips are going to cost fewer points? I can now go CHI-NYP in a roomette for 13,800 points (sometimes) instead of 20,000 points (always), plus my earnings remain the same. Should I be unhappy about this change? I just have to pick the right date to travel on a redemption.


It's a devaluation for those who booked trips to maximize the use of the zone maps. I haven't booked a sleeper redemption, but I thought that one benefit was that there was no transportation charge for additional passengers.

I'm probably not going to benefit from this too much since the 100 point minimum is what allowed me to earn points. However, now I probably have an incentive to buy multi-ride tickets rather than try to book individual tickets to earn segments. I may not have wasted a whole lot of money on those trips, but they certainly took up a lot of my time.


----------



## Anderson

BCL said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain how the new AGR is a "devaluation" if some reward trips are going to cost fewer points? I can now go CHI-NYP in a roomette for 13,800 points (sometimes) instead of 20,000 points (always), plus my earnings remain the same. Should I be unhappy about this change? I just have to pick the right date to travel on a redemption.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a devaluation for those who booked trips to maximize the use of the zone maps. I haven't booked a sleeper redemption, but I thought that one benefit was that there was no transportation charge for additional passengers.
> 
> I'm probably not going to benefit from this too much since the 100 point minimum is what allowed me to earn points. However, now I probably have an incentive to buy multi-ride tickets rather than try to book individual tickets to earn segments. I may not have wasted a whole lot of money on those trips, but they certainly took up a lot of my time.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't think booking WAS/RVR-DLD/ORL counts as "maximizing the map".


----------



## AlamoWye

Is a sleeper for 2 still going to be based on one redemption per the total cost, or is it going to require 2 redemptions? The airlines, of course, don't have this situation.


----------



## printman2000

AlamoWye said:


> Is a sleeper for 2 still going to be based on one redemption per the total cost, or is it going to require 2 redemptions? The airlines, of course, don't have this situation.


I assume it is based on the total cost of what it would cost for two in a sleeper. So, no. They will still have to pay the railfare with points.


----------



## BCL

AlamoWye said:


> Is a sleeper for 2 still going to be based on one redemption per the total cost, or is it going to require 2 redemptions? The airlines, of course, don't have this situation.


It's going to be a single redemption based on the retail price. So there won't be anything like a flat rate redemption (based on room type) whether it's one or four. Each additional passenger will be assessed a transportation charge, although children will be eligible for a 50% discount.


----------



## MiRider

No complaints from me so far.
Looking at just a few of the trips I want to take this year and next makes me wish the program was in effect right now so I could book them.

I was thinking of going to NOLA in Nov.
A roomette CHI-NOL on select days in Nov. would be less than 8,000 points with the new program - that's a big reduction from the 20K one zone redemption - I'll probably just wait. 

Business class on my home train is approx. 600 points less - less than the original 1500 points just for coach.

A roomette on select days in March * CHI - SAF a little over 13,000 points * CHI - NYP a little over 16,000 * CHI-NOL a little under 11,000 * CHI-DAL right around 10,000
.
If there isn't an enormous fare increase in 2016, it looks like the new program is going to work to my benefit, especially since I don't travel during peak vacation times.

AmSnag is going to be even more valuable now, imo.


----------



## Rail Freak

Being from the Tampa bay area, I'm not thrilled ! The current system allows me a trip STP-DEN for 20k & the new system will cost me 35k pts. But I can see ( & understand ) Amtraks thinking. Now, with every price increase will also be an increase in point redemption!

I can't say I give up on Amtrak, but will sure be traveling with them a Hell of alot less!!!!


----------



## BCL

I'm wondering what will happen to point buying. I was always kind of amused that people would really want to buy points over several years just to save up for sleeper redemptions that would actually cost less in terms of dollars spent. It just seemed kind of odd to me. Now that they'll have a combination of points and dollars, it might make less sense to buy points ahead of time.


----------



## jebr

Overall, my reaction is very "meh" to the changes.

Pluses:

- Shorter redemptions are much cheaper. For example, the $19 coach tickets MSP - WIN are now 800 point redemptions (and the $26 SCD - WIN are about 900 points) versus 5,500 in the old system. This will be especially nice for new AGR members: a longer trip plus the sign-on bonus should get them a short redemption for free very quickly. Sleeper redemptions on shorter trips are also cheaper. Two people in a roomette SCD - CHI is now 8,660 points at low bucket (or so it looks) versus 15,000. (This is for two people.)

- Any activity keeps points active for an additional 36 months, even something as simple as buying a bar of soap through Walmart.com in the portal.

Minuses:

- Longer redemptions are not advantageous anymore. An ATL - SCD redemption is now 31,602 for (presumably) low bucket on the Crescent/Cap/Builder, and 39,951 on Crescent/Card/Builder. (Again, this is for two people in a roomette.) Under the current system it is 20,000 points. However, I'd often fly on this route anyways (though I have taken it by rail once) as it's a two night affair and I often don't have that much time to spare.

- The 100 point minimum is gone, which means any chance of me getting status in the near future is gone, at least from rail travel. Granted, I've never had status, so it's no loss there, but it was a nice way to top up the points balance some as well.

If I were to improve it, here would be my thoughts:

- Add a bonus for sleeper travel and the "flexible" coach fare. Maybe 25% bonus on those fares? I almost never see the need to buy the Value fare over the Flexible fare, so adding something to that value proposition may help to make it more appealing.

- Restore the 100 point minimum. Granted, being able to get 400 points from SPL - MSP roundtrip or WIN - SCD roundtrip (thanks to the 100 points and split ticketing on 7/8 and 27/28) was almost too good to be true, but it was nice and it would be one nice benefit to have back. (I suppose getting rid of the split ticket loophole would be fine if it would restore the 100 point minimum otherwise.  )


----------



## jis

Amsnag now needs to add a column for "Required AGR points" 

One good thing out of all this is now there will be one less thing to worry about. Since the possibility of being even Select becomes progressively more remote, so one can just give up on it and reduce the number of spurious train trips.

I was thinking that when United went to revenue based stuff and changed their points accrual to revenue base, they did not change their elite qualification to be based on the revenue based points accrual, but still based on actual bis miles + class bonus, together with an explicit dollar base for each level. So for example Platinum takes 75,000 bis + bonus miles (which can have some fare class based bonuses added on) plus a spend of $9,000 ex-taxes on fares. That changes the dynamics considerably of the program from a pure revenue based tier qualification. If you have a pile of money to burn then a pure revenue based tier qualification is more time efficient. In what United did you cannot just buy into a tier with one humongously expensive trip. You actually have to spend at least some time traveling the requisite number of miles, though the class bonuses help out a little. For lifetime benefits which can be quite valuable you can't even use the class bonuses anymore.

Of course it is another matter that to spend $5000 on Amtrak you may have to spend more than a week traveling around to random places, or do a couple of weeks of regular round trips on Acelas or something like that.


----------



## rrdude

I'm still unclear as to how one will "calculate" how many points it would take on any given day, (I know the amount will vary based on sales on said date) to have TWO adults, occupy a roomette from CHI to WAS on the Cap?

Can someone 'splain it to me?


----------



## jebr

I think it's just whatever the fare would be for two adults in that roomette calculated against the calculator on the "sneak peek" AGR website. (I would surmise that there will be an additional cost for the second person, just as there is now if paying with cash.)


----------



## Manny T

^ Correct (I think). How much will their tickets cost? Plug that dollar amount into the points needed calculator. I'm sure when the new program kicks in and you are about to redeem an award, the calculator will be right there to show you the points needed.

Thank you MiRider I think you are exactly right. If you generalize and say "the new AGR stinks -- it's a devaluation and renders the program worthless," you can't possibly be right when (i) earnings remains the same (except the 100 point minimum goes away) and (ii) many award tickets will eat up fewer points (based on the ticket price).

The people who are complaining are probably heavy users who try to game the system right and left for every advantage, however slight. Some of this may go away. I think the average AGR member who travels "normally," earns an award "occasionally" and has the flexibility to research ticket prices in advance will find the new program is just fine for them.


----------



## rrdude

jebr said:


> I think it's just whatever the fare would be for two adults in that roomette calculated against the calculator on the "sneak peek" AGR website. (I would surmise that there will be an additional cost for the second person, just as there is now if paying with cash.)


That's what I'm *thinking* too..... and I've come up with less than 20K (16,800) for this sample too, but also came up with 23K

As has been said Sooooooooooooo many times on this board, and now it's more true than EVER: YMMV!


----------



## SteveSFL

I wonder what "some fares will not be eligible for points earning and or redemption" means.


----------



## BCL

jis said:


> Of course it is another matter that to spend $5000 on Amtrak you may have to spend more than a week traveling around to random places, or do a couple of weeks of regular round trips on Acelas or something like that.


It was rather sweet that I could work my points-earning into an actual commute to work. However, it also created an incentive to book single tickets and find every possible discount to make it worth my while.

However, I was thinking that during something like the Capitol Corridor 50% off weekend special, 25 days of RIC-EMY-SFC-EMY-RIC trips would have cost $300 to get to Select Plus, which is actually less than an annual membership for United Club. I did that occasionally, but not that often. However, it did seem kind of absurd that it would be possible to put in the time to do this. Yeah - I knew it was gaming the system to some extent, but the 100 point minimum was the great equalizer if you lived in one of these areas.


----------



## BCL

SteveSTX said:


> I wonder what "some fares will not be eligible for points earning and or redemption" means.


I'd guess that means you might not be able to apply a discount that could be applied to cash fares.


----------



## BCL

Manny T said:


> The people who are complaining are probably heavy users who try to game the system right and left for every advantage, however slight. Some of this may go away. I think the average AGR member who travels "normally," earns an award "occasionally" and has the flexibility to research ticket prices in advance will find the new program is just fine for them.


It might work for me if I can accumulate points under the old system while I can and then redeem under the new one. However, I never did do any of the redemption gaming.


----------



## bingozone

i've got like 120k pending points its no problem for me



Manny T said:


> ^ Correct (I think). How much will their tickets cost? Plug that dollar amount into the points needed calculator. I'm sure when the new program kicks in and you are about to redeem an award, the calculator will be right there to show you the points needed.
> 
> Thank you MiRider I think you are exactly right. If you generalize and say "the new AGR stinks -- it's a devaluation and renders the program worthless," you can't possibly be right when (i) earnings remains the same (except the 100 point minimum goes away) and (ii) many award tickets will eat up fewer points (based on the ticket price).
> 
> The people who are complaining are probably heavy users who try to game the system right and left for every advantage, however slight. Some of this may go away. I think the average AGR member who travels "normally," earns an award "occasionally" and has the flexibility to research ticket prices in advance will find the new program is just fine for them.


----------



## jacorbett70

I have a pattern of taking trips to Lancaster and Harrisburg at low Keystone prices so the loss of the 100-point minimum, which got me chasing S+ when I moved to PA, will certainly dump me out of S+. I might drop to Select this year anyway, although may be close enough for extra runs to earn me a last hurrah at S+ in 2016.

http://twitter.com/jacorbett70/status/636991738821873664

Meanwhile I went on that site and tested redemption costs for a typical autumn time when I would likely travel. (Week of October 22)

It does cost more when the buckets go up. When they are low I am likely to pay instead of redeem. If I redeem low buckets, that would make S+ impossible and Select borderline. I'd check what I would get with Select nowadays maybe a limited number of Club Acela passes would make it worth it if i am hanging in the upper 4000s at the end of the year.

http://twitter.com/jacorbett70/status/636992165915324417


----------



## jis

This will certainly the last time I qualify for S+, which I will upon completing my AU Gathering trip. Next year I will be lucky to make Select. I guess I will just have to use my United Club Card to use the Club Acelas on the NEC. With the new club in Chicago I hope they get it associated with priority pass. I have written to them suggesting they do. Worst cas a BC ticket to somewhere close by would suffice to use the Met Club if absolutely necessary. Actually I mostly go to chicago by Sleeper anyway, so it might just be a non issue. Then again maybe I will go to Chicago less by train, though for just going from NYP or WAS it is point wise cheaper in many cases in AGR 2.0. Going there from Florida OTOH is a different matter, specially when I can get $350-$400 RT air tickets all the time. Sigh....


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Amtrak's new motto of late?

Amtrak: Where we constantly strive to give you less for more!


----------



## George K

I'm not seeing anything about the termination of points transfer from Chase Sapphire or Hilton Honors.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Anderson

You know, one thing of particular note (and not in a good way) is that Anthony, in a Facebook post, directed everyone to post on FlyerTalk (and only made mention of FT). They may be little things, but they do create a bad rub.

As I told Charlie, I'm not to the point of burning the strip on my SE card but I'm (clearly) mad as hell and AGR just earned Virgin America a _bunch_ of business from me courtesy of AGR. If I'm dead set on taking a train transcontinental, VIA just got an edge over Amtrak (where there's still variety in food, good drink, and I have top-tier status as well). This is more of the "last straw", but if I'm going to get screwed with redemption switch penalties alongside crap OTP...well, let's just say that I'm not thrilled.

And lastly, the marketing has me all out of sorts (this sorta wrecked the last 8 hours of my trip on the Ocean).

Edit: I may not be burning the strip on my SE card, but I'm going to _seriously_ consider switching to a generic Chase UR card with 2x travel rewards so I can kick those rewards to Virgin Atlantic. Non-Amtrak use of my AGR card was already being held back; it may drop to zero at this point.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Davy Crockett said:


> Amtrak's new motto of late?
> 
> Amtrak: Where we constantly strive to give you less for more!


True this! Right out of the Old SP Playbook and copycatting the Airlines!


----------



## Carolina Special

An article over at Trains Magazine says that Amtrak won't comment on the Amtrak Guest Rewards card until 9/12. Points transfers can continue "until further notice".

Not clear what the further notice will be.


----------



## amamba

So for me, a couple of things.

I probably won't be taking LD sleeper trips anymore all the way cross country. I'm glad I was able to do my CZ, EB, and SWC trips already. I just priced out a trip that I normally take in March and for me to take the LSL to the CZ to the CS (BOS - SEA) is 52,000 in a ROOMETTE. Not happening.

On the other hand, I might have my H use up all his points on a monthly passes for commuting, so that's a nice addition. Plus a $49 saver fare from NYP - PVD on the regional is now a reasonable use of miles for redemption purposes.


----------



## Notelvis

Thumbnail Quick Check -

I redeemed 15,000 points a few days ago for a March 2016 roomette from Atlanta to Philadelphia.

Per the point estimator, this trip would be 17,388 points under the new program.

In the coming days I'll comparison shop some other trips and decide whether or not I want to book another trip or two before January 24.


----------



## seat38a

They should have at least kept the 100 point minimum for Business Class system wide. If fare x 2.25 is < 100 then give the minimum 100. This still discourages points run system wide but if your willing to pay the premium for BC, I'm thinking reward them NOT punish them.


----------



## rtabern

I cant believe that many people were doing "point runs" that it was such a problem to eliminate the 100 point minimum. Maybe many of us on here were, but not your typical passengers. My conductor friends on the Hiawatha said I was about one of four people who would do such runs. Oh well... instead of spending $700 and contirbuting 100-200 ridership stats to the Hiawatha... I will use that money to buy United Club status. Guess Amtrak doest want my money and stats anymore. Thats fine...


----------



## jis

If the Acela 500/750 minimums are gone then it stands to reason that all minimums are gone. Not that I like it mind you, but at least there is logic to simplifying the system to be purely revenue based. BC already gets a bonus. It is just revenue based.

Except for corner cases, United Club membership has always been easier to purchase than to obtain it via countless hours spent on points runs and what no to get to S+, unless in ones daily life one does that kind of Amtrak travel anyway, which I can see could be the case for you. Yeah it just became relatively even easier to lean towards just purchasing UC membership. And now that you are set free, you can actually do comparison shopping and select an airline club or something like Priority Pass which might work better for your situation if you are not married to a single airline.

Since I actually do fly a lot, and that too by United for various reasons, I never depended on Amtrak S+ for getting access to United Club. For that I just used an appropriate United credit cards whereby you get a discount on the club membership and get to collect a bunch of united points, which again for me have always been way more useful than Amtrak points. As is said it depends on ones situation and YMMV.

Ironically, it looks like now I will have to use my United Club membership to get access to Club Acelas! I already did this many times earlier this year when AGR forgot to send me my S+ credentials.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Since redemptions will be Fare Based, will discounted fares ( Senior, AAA etc) be the basis for the number of required points, or will they be a flat current Bucket rate when booked for everyone?

Booking up to 11 months in advance right now is usually High Bucket, so the number of points will be the max.Then, if the Fare goes down, as they do, you will lose points to make modifications due to the new penalty policy!

And as was said, the Draconian Cancellation and Modification penalties of 10-20% of the points isn't anything to make members happy either!

This can really cost members heavily if something happens that requires a cancellation of an expensive trip!

Stuff happens, AGR used to work with us on this! Amtrak should be happy if a cancellation of a point trip opens up a High Bucket room for a paying passenger! What would be wrong with a flat 14 day Before departure penalty, not the proposed 10 and 20% Draconian measure?


----------



## rrdude

For what it's worth.

On Nov 3rd of this year, under the EXISTING AGR, a roomette from DC to Chicago would cost you 20,000 points. Under the NEW AGR, that exact same roomette will only cost 8,901. THAT is a *HUGE* difference. Hell, you could do the trip TWICE, with points left over under the NEW AGR plan..... Now, that's because the price for the Cap Ltd, at THAT time of year is so low. It's conceivable that during PEAK travel periods, it could cost MORE than 20,000. YMMV. (Pretty much the same ration for a Bedroom 17K for NEW, vs. 40K for OLD)

Granted, WAS to CHI, using points for a sleeper, not the most beneficial two-zone redemption, but, it shows the program changes swing both ways.


----------



## seat38a

rtabern said:


> I cant believe that many people were doing "point runs" that it was such a problem to eliminate the 100 point minimum. Maybe many of us on here were, but not your typical passengers. My conductor friends on the Hiawatha said I was about one of four people who would do such runs. Oh well... instead of spending $700 and contirbuting 100-200 ridership stats to the Hiawatha... I will use that money to buy United Club status. Guess Amtrak doest want my money and stats anymore. Thats fine...


If anything, they should have eliminated the bus connection garnering the 100 point minimum. So if your going from Socal to Norcal, and it involved two bus connection and 2 trains, you ended up getting 400 points for that day.

Ex:

Fullerton to LAX via Surfliner

Bus to Bakersfield

Bakersfield to Emeryville

Emeryville to San Francisco Bus Stops


----------



## seat38a

jis said:


> If the Acela 500/750 minimums are gone then it stands to reason that all minimums are gone. Not that I like it mind you, but at least there is logic to simplifying the system to be purely revenue based. BC already gets a bonus. It is just revenue based.
> 
> Except for corner cases, United Club membership has always been easier to purchase than to obtain it via countless hours spent on points runs and what no to get to S+, unless in ones daily life one does that kind of Amtrak travel anyway, which I can see could be the case for you. Yeah it just became relatively even easier to lean towards just purchasing UC membership. And now that you are set free, you can actually do comparison shopping and select an airline club or something like Priority Pass which might work better for your situation if you are not married to a single airline.
> 
> Since I actually do fly a lot, and that too by United for various reasons, I never depended on Amtrak S+ for getting access to United Club. For that I just used an appropriate United credit cards whereby you get a discount on the club membership and get to collect a bunch of united points, which again for me have always been way more useful than Amtrak points. As is said it depends on ones situation and YMMV.
> 
> Ironically, it looks like now I will have to use my United Club membership to get access to Club Acelas! I already did this many times earlier this year when AGR forgot to send me my S+ credentials.


Oh wow, they updated the calculator over night. It still calculated the minimums for Acela yesterday when I played with it.


----------



## siberianmo

_*G'day Rail Travelers,*_

_*What I am posting is for the information of those interested in a point of view that is mine regarding the announcement of forthcoming changes to Amtrak's Guest Reward program. *_

_*As one will see within my submission, my travels aboard Amtrak are frequent for long-distance travel and always in bedrooms. My comments to Amtrak's Guest Reward have to do with not only the changes to a program that has worked quite well for my wife and I over the years; notwithstanding the "jump" in 2012 for point redemptions - but some travel input thrown in (*_*i.e.: rant).*

_*It is my hope that my submission will add to the discussion, rather than detract from it. I should add that I am a dyed-in-the-wool passenger train addict; not necessarily a "fan" of Amtrak, who happens to be the only "game" in town. *_

_*Since these comments are mine and mine alone, I have no desire to defend any of them. Of course points of view are like noses, we all have one!*_

_*Now to the point of this thread, which are Email's regarding this issue:*_

===================================================



--Original Message--
From: xxxxxxxxxx
Date: 8/27/2015 11:41:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Tell us what you think

Source: Member Web Member Number: xxxxxxxxx Name: xxxxxxxxx Respond Via Email: Yes Subject: Tell us what you think Comments: I travel by train for pleasure with and without my wife. A check of my history (xxxxxxxxx) will reveal extensive personal travel, mostly on long-distance routes, and always in bedrooms.

Unless I have missed something with regard to your new points program being implemented in January 2016:

Those of us in the Select Plus category will be redeeming MORE points than in the past.

For example, I book travel aboard #5 at least annually. Those trips from Chicago to Sacramento are in bedroom accommodations. Currently, I redeem 40k points for that trip (which not that long ago was far fewer!) and it appears that far more will be required for future bookings. If so, shame on Amtrak for destroying what perhaps was the finest points program in the travel industry.

I think you are patterning your program after the airlines, which of course has deteriorated to the bottom of the barrel.

As Amtrak continues to offer Spartan amenities in the bedrooms and sleeping cars, fewer choices in the dining car, less than well maintained equipment along with a ridiculous on-time-arrival record for many routes, my travel will definitely decrease as a result of this change.

Why in the world Amtrak seems bent on chasing travelers away as opposed to enticing them is beyond comprehension.

My wife and I have recently traveled aboard the Coast Starlight - a train that once was perhaps the premier of them all. On our last trip in April of this year, it was just another trip; nothing special aside from the Pacific Parlour Car - which is outstanding providing one is fortunate enough to get a motivated attendant.

We have traveled aboard the Empire Builder on three occasions this year, pretty much with the same "blah" feeling. No more wine & cheese events for bedroom passengers; no more trivial pursuit; shorter stops at places that used to be at least 20 minutes to a half hour; refueling BEFORE letting passengers off, etc.

Our journeys aboard the eastbound Southwest Chief were disastrous in terms of making connections in Kansas City from Los Angeles. Now one has to wait until 4 PM for the next train to St. Louis where in the recent past one could book the 8:15 AM train. No more.

I absolutely believe no one at the boardroom level gives a damn - but I do and it is after all, my money!



Re: Tell us what you think [#xxxxxxxxx]

From: AGR Customer Service <[email protected]>



To:xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thu, Aug 27, 2015 07:53 PM

Thank you for your email regarding our redemption changes.

It's always a hard decision to make when modifying rates, however, since redemption rates for Amtrak travel have not changed since January 2012 (some have not changed since we launched in 2001) we had to bring the redemption rates in line with today's costs. 

The program also continues to offer frequent promotions to members to help them earn points quickly and easily. We do appreciate your business and value you as an Amtrak Guest Rewards member.

Sincerely,

xxxxxxxxx
Amtrak Guest Rewards Service Center


----------



## Bob Dylan

Boilerplate, computer generated form letter! Blah,Blah, Yada, Yada!!!!

The Bean Counters and political appeasers and hacks have taken over Amtrak Management.

The good people such as the front line, day to day workers that actually do the work and face the customers, have no say in any of the changes @ Amtrak and neither do the Customers!

Give us your money and shut up is the new Motto! If you don't like it, someone else will take your room.or seat, no matter how much we downgrade service and amenities and raise prices!

The race to the bottom with the Airlines and Busess is on, and we're the ones who lose!


----------



## tonys96

rrdude said:


> For what it's worth.
> 
> On Nov 3rd of this year, under the EXISTING AGR, a roomette from DC to Chicago would cost you 20,000 points. Under the NEW AGR, that exact same roomette will only cost 8,901. THAT is a *HUGE* difference. Hell, you could do the trip TWICE, with points left over under the NEW AGR plan..... Now, that's because the price for the Cap Ltd, at THAT time of year is so low. It's conceivable that during PEAK travel periods, it could cost MORE than 20,000. YMMV. (Pretty much the same ration for a Bedroom 17K for NEW, vs. 40K for OLD)
> 
> Granted, WAS to CHI, using points for a sleeper, not the most beneficial two-zone redemption, but, it shows the program changes swing both ways.


Using current AGR, DAL to WAS in February is 20000 points in sleeper for two. Under new estimator it is 37000. Nearly double.


----------



## BCL

jis said:


> Except for corner cases, United Club membership has always been easier to purchase than to obtain it via countless hours spent on points runs and what no to get to S+, unless in ones daily life one does that kind of Amtrak travel anyway, which I can see could be the case for you. Yeah it just became relatively even easier to lean towards just purchasing UC membership. And now that you are set free, you can actually do comparison shopping and select an airline club or something like Priority Pass which might work better for your situation if you are not married to a single airline.


Well - I did waste many an hour chasing Select Plus. I also spent a bit more. However, it was for my commute, so it wasn't as if all the time was just being wasted away chasing the dream of sitting in a United Club location (which I've done a grand total of once).

However, my numbers worked out differently. I was calculating how much it might cost in terms of TQPs. The minimum points became the great equalizer. Granted - I've gotten the 100 points for a segment that was listed in my transactions as a $1 ticket price, but that's unusual (promotional price plus it was a bus). But for my commute ride it was a matter of how much it would cost and whether or not the marginal price was worth it. For example, I could get a 10-ride ticket for maybe $106 for my regular ride, which would yield 212 points, and still will. However, I would split up my mornings into a multi-city and take a straight shot home for a promotional discount price of $13.50. So five round trips cost $135, but yielded 1500 TQPs. I do that a little less than 7 times I've made Select Plus. 7 of those 10-ride tickets and I haven't even made it a third of the way to Select. 33 round trips plus one more segment and I'm there for just over $900, and I've spent that time commuting to/from work. 7 10-ride tickets cost me $742, and maybe I have enough points for a special route.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep, YMMV!

How fair is that? We out here in flyover country, and where there are few to no trains, are not benefitting from this!

As has been said, the days of the Loooong Amtrak trips are over for most of us! ( cost prohibitive/harder to earn points).

What a shame, copying the Airlines and using the SP Playbook! Is this any way tonrun a railroad?


----------



## rtabern

So, let's say I get the United Airlines CC with the $495 annual fee... that lets you have access to their lounges. Does this also get me into all Amtrak lounges? Would I be allowed to bring a guest into the lounges (both UA and Amtrak)?



jis said:


> If the Acela 500/750 minimums are gone then it stands to reason that all minimums are gone. Not that I like it mind you, but at least there is logic to simplifying the system to be purely revenue based. BC already gets a bonus. It is just revenue based.
> 
> Except for corner cases, United Club membership has always been easier to purchase than to obtain it via countless hours spent on points runs and what no to get to S+, unless in ones daily life one does that kind of Amtrak travel anyway, which I can see could be the case for you. Yeah it just became relatively even easier to lean towards just purchasing UC membership. And now that you are set free, you can actually do comparison shopping and select an airline club or something like Priority Pass which might work better for your situation if you are not married to a single airline.
> 
> Since I actually do fly a lot, and that too by United for various reasons, I never depended on Amtrak S+ for getting access to United Club. For that I just used an appropriate United credit cards whereby you get a discount on the club membership and get to collect a bunch of united points, which again for me have always been way more useful than Amtrak points. As is said it depends on ones situation and YMMV.
> 
> Ironically, it looks like now I will have to use my United Club membership to get access to Club Acelas! I already did this many times earlier this year when AGR forgot to send me my S+ credentials.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Unless you're going to fly alot Rob, you'd probably be better off just joining the new Lounge in the Great Hall!

As much as you go to CHI it would be cheaper! This is why I dropped my AMEX Card when I retired, didn't fly anymore or use fancy Hotels and the annual fee was too high!

Id wait and check out the offers on the new BOA AGR Cards coming next month!


----------



## jis

rtabern said:


> So, let's say I get the United Airlines CC with the $495 annual fee... that lets you have access to their lounges. Does this also get me into all Amtrak lounges? Would I be allowed to bring a guest into the lounges (both UA and Amtrak)?


United Club members only get into Club Acelas. Not into any other lounges run by Amtrak.



tonys96 said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth.
> 
> On Nov 3rd of this year, under the EXISTING AGR, a roomette from DC to Chicago would cost you 20,000 points. Under the NEW AGR, that exact same roomette will only cost 8,901. THAT is a *HUGE* difference. Hell, you could do the trip TWICE, with points left over under the NEW AGR plan..... Now, that's because the price for the Cap Ltd, at THAT time of year is so low. It's conceivable that during PEAK travel periods, it could cost MORE than 20,000. YMMV. (Pretty much the same ration for a Bedroom 17K for NEW, vs. 40K for OLD)
> 
> Granted, WAS to CHI, using points for a sleeper, not the most beneficial two-zone redemption, but, it shows the program changes swing both ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Using current AGR, DAL to WAS in February is 20000 points in sleeper for two. Under new estimator it is 37000. Nearly double.
Click to expand...

How are you computing your fare and what number are you using. Just curious. In Feb I can find a TE/Cap combo for about 27000 points for 2 in roomette. Of course you can go much much higher depending on the bucket and routing.

In general anything that requires two legs on a Sleeper for 2 zones seems to come out worse than current. If there is one leg on sleeper covering 2 zones, it tends to come out better. That is why Florida to anywhere in the midwest tends to be worse than current while New York or Washington to Chicago tends to be better. DAL to CHI is probably better.


----------



## rtabern

So, let me get this right... (an example of how horrible the new AGR redemption process will be)

Let's use November 24, 2015 as an example...

If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost me 20,000 points under the old system.

If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost $1397.00 -- which according to the calculator on the new AGR page -- would be 48,197 points under the new system.

So, 20,000 points OLD system and 48,197 points NEW system? ***?????? That is more than a 100% de-valuation!!!

I can't believe there isn't more of an out-cry over this. Again, I know I am burning through my points and might not even use AGR anymore after 2/28/17 when my S+ status will expire.

My real beef, as stated earlier, was the 100 point minimum going away. There is no way I am going to spend $5,000 a year on Amtrak travel that will be required now to maintain Select Plus. Honestly --- If I am going to spend that much on a train trip it will be something much nice than Amtrak (VIA or private rail charter). Access to Amtrak lounges and United lounges was worth the $1000 or so a year doing "point runs"... not $5,000. Congrats to Anthony for all his hard work... he is a good guy and one of my good friends... but of course, all of the changes he made benefit Amtrak and not really me. So while Amtrak has to do what it has to do... and so do I. I don't see AGR being something I will wish to be involved with past 2/28/17. I wonder how many people will drop off the Select Plus rosters now. Maybe that was the goal though afterall --- maybe too many people had S+ and lounge access --- and they were looking to trim that down a little??!? Still, I guess that $1,000 I would spend on point runs and the 100-200 stats to the Hiawatha I would do -- can go somewhere else... probably United Club.


----------



## jis

Yep. It *is* ticket price based as has been *loudly* advertised. And the natural consequence is that if you take a roundabout route, you get to pay accordingly.

If you go straight on the EB in a roomette it is less than 15,000 points. Via LAX on the same date is ~29,000 points (just a random date like Feb 15th 2016)

Somehow raising a hue and cry about being unable to go to PDX from CHI via LAX for an acceptable point cost seems like something that may not be very convincing to anyone other than the died in the wool AGR gamer.  I am sure it could be even more spectacularly expensive to go via DAL and LAX to PDX.


----------



## SteveSFL

Anyone thought about Auto Train redemptions? Low bucket seems to be about $595 for two people and a vehicle, which would be just over 20k points, a savings of almost 10k. Most of the savings is in the vehicle add-on which would be 8245 points instead of the current 15k.

Of course vehicle add-on might be one of those "not all fares will qualify for points redemptions".


----------



## tonys96

jis said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, let's say I get the United Airlines CC with the $495 annual fee... that lets you have access to their lounges. Does this also get me into all Amtrak lounges? Would I be allowed to bring a guest into the lounges (both UA and Amtrak)?
> 
> 
> 
> United Club members only get into Club Acelas. Not into any other lounges run by Amtrak.
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth.
> 
> On Nov 3rd of this year, under the EXISTING AGR, a roomette from DC to Chicago would cost you 20,000 points. Under the NEW AGR, that exact same roomette will only cost 8,901. THAT is a *HUGE* difference. Hell, you could do the trip TWICE, with points left over under the NEW AGR plan..... Now, that's because the price for the Cap Ltd, at THAT time of year is so low. It's conceivable that during PEAK travel periods, it could cost MORE than 20,000. YMMV. (Pretty much the same ration for a Bedroom 17K for NEW, vs. 40K for OLD)
> 
> Granted, WAS to CHI, using points for a sleeper, not the most beneficial two-zone redemption, but, it shows the program changes swing both ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Using current AGR, DAL to WAS in February is 20000 points in sleeper for two. Under new estimator it is 37000. Nearly double.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How are you computing your fare and what number are you using. Just curious. In Feb I can find a TE/Cap combo for about 27000 points for 2 in roomette. Of course you can go much much higher depending on the bucket and routing.
> In general anything that requires two legs on a Sleeper for 2 zones seems to come out worse than current. If there is one leg on sleeper covering 2 zones, it tends to come out better. That is why Florida to anywhere in the midwest tends to be worse than current while New York or Washington to Chicago tends to be better. DAL to CHI is probably better.
Click to expand...

Looked up fare for two on a day in feb on TE/ Card and put that fare in the estimator. There was a fare using a bus, too, but that would not be what I would use points for.


----------



## rtabern

Well, 48,197 points is a lot more than just "greater than 29,000"... LOL



jis said:


> If you go straight on the EB in a roomette it is less than 15,000 points. Via LAX on the same date is ~29,000 points (just a random date like Feb 15th 2016)


----------



## Bob Dylan

SteveSTX raises a good point about the AUTO Train which is a Cash Cow for Amtrak!

There are LOTS of details unexplained and the new system is bound to be Full of bugs, contradictions etc.

Not to mention training the AGR Agents who have a hard time now understanding a, IMO, simpiler system

And still to come is the new AGR Card rollout, its already generating lots of talk all over the net! I predict another similar typhon to hit AGR and BOA and (Chase)when this occurs next month!


----------



## Ryan

The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Can we say that jis and Rob are both right? I feel strongly both ways!


----------



## PRR 60

Ryan said:


> The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.


Not to mention that 11/24/15 is an AGR blackout date, so a 20,000 point, two-zone roomette redemption CHI-PDX is not permitted under the present program.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Going to Portland from Chicago via LA. How is that not gaming the system?

That type of routing is why these changes are going to occur. 4 nights on a train vs 2 nights on a train if you go directly on the Empire Bulider. Under the old system it was a 2 zone reward, both routes. Now if you want to go the long way, you can pay (points or cash) for those 2 extra nights. Seem better to me.

Now about the Auto Train....


----------



## jis

rtabern said:


> Well, 48,197 points is a lot more than just "greater than 29,000"... LOL
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you go straight on the EB in a roomette it is less than 15,000 points. Via LAX on the same date is ~29,000 points (just a random date like Feb 15th 2016)
Click to expand...

On the date that you chose the comparison really is 48,000 points vs. no free ride using AGR, just pay the fare, since it is a blackout date as pointed out by others.

However, no one is contesting the basic fact that it is relatively easy to find a routing and a bucket where you'd get clobbered with the new system when compared to the current system, of redemption. That is the entire purpose of this change, to actually charge in points something proportional to the actual cost of the trip. So why is everyone surprised? Dismayed yes, me too. But if one believes that Amtrak is supposed to be run as a business I can;t really formulate an argument that says that it should not charge appropriately for a service even when it is in AGR points, no matter how much I hate the consequences of all this on my AGR gaming lifestyle.


----------



## rtabern

I just randomly picked November 24th. Didn't realize it was that close to Thanksigving and was a blackout date.

But, fine, let's use another random date -- October 10, 2015 -- gathering weekend (not that I usually go, as I usually work to narrate a steam engine trip out of MSP that weekend).

This is EVEN WORSE than the previous example.

A roomette from CHI to PDX via LAX is going for $1,583 for 2 people. This would be 20,000 points under the current system, and it looks like 54,614 under the new system. Dude, this is almost TRIPLE the redemption cost.

Sure, you can put lipstick on a pig -- but you can't dress up how this new program is going to royally screw people trying to take bedrooms out west. Sure, your redemption for short hauls may go down, but I enjoy longer trips in bedrooms. A redemption going from 20,000 to 54,000 is un-acceptible!!!



PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention that 11/24/15 is an AGR blackout date, so a 20,000 point, two-zone roomette redemption CHI-PDX is not permitted under the present program.
Click to expand...


----------



## rtabern

How do you get 4 nights on the train? That is 3 nights on the train -- 2 on #3 (SWC) and 1 on #14 (CS)... unless you're counting on the Starlight being that late it might be 2 nights on that train. 



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Going to Portland from Chicago via LA. How is that not gaming the system?
> 
> That type of routing is why these changes are going to occur. 4 nights on a train vs 2 nights on a train if you go directly on the Empire Bulider. Under the old system it was a 2 zone reward, both routes. Now if you want to go the long way, you can pay (points or cash) for those 2 extra nights. Seem better to me.
> 
> Now about the Auto Train....


----------



## rtabern

Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.

*MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!*



rtabern said:


> I just randomly picked November 24th. Didn't realize it was that close to Thanksigving and was a blackout date.
> 
> But, fine, let's use another random date -- October 10, 2015 -- gathering weekend (not that I usually go, as I usually work to narrate a steam engine trip out of MSP that weekend).
> 
> This is EVEN WORSE than the previous example.
> 
> A roomette from CHI to PDX via LAX is going for $1,583 for 2 people. This would be 20,000 points under the current system, and it looks like 54,614 under the new system. Dude, this is almost TRIPLE the redemption cost.
> 
> Sure, you can put lipstick on a pig -- but you can't dress up how this new program is going to royally screw people trying to take bedrooms out west. Sure, your redemption for short hauls may go down, but I enjoy longer trips in bedrooms. A redemption going from 20,000 to 54,000 is un-acceptible!!!
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention that 11/24/15 is an AGR blackout date, so a 20,000 point, two-zone roomette redemption CHI-PDX is not permitted under the present program.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jebr

rtabern said:


> So, let me get this right... (an example of how horrible the new AGR redemption process will be)
> 
> Let's use November 24, 2015 as an example...
> 
> If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost me 20,000 points under the old system.
> 
> If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost $1397.00 -- which according to the calculator on the new AGR page -- would be 48,197 points under the new system.
> 
> So, 20,000 points OLD system and 48,197 points NEW system? ***?????? That is more than a 100% de-valuation!!!
> 
> I can't believe there isn't more of an out-cry over this. Again, I know I am burning through my points and might not even use AGR anymore after 2/28/17 when my S+ status will expire.


I'm only seeing $1197 (or 41,297) as the fare for two people in a roomette via LAX (3/14) for two people. This is for November 24.

Regardless, the "direct" route (via the Builder) is $708 for two people, or 24,426 points. That's about a 25% increase over a normal redemption. Considering that I can actually make the redemption (under the old system I couldn't do it at any number of points) I'd honestly consider that a net win. The indirect routes (or routes with connections) lose out big, but many people (I would argue most people, but unfortunately I don't have the statistics to back that up) will take the most direct route available, even on a points redemption.


----------



## BCL

rtabern said:


> I can't believe there isn't more of an out-cry over this. Again, I know I am burning through my points and might not even use AGR anymore after 2/28/17 when my S+ status will expire.
> 
> My real beef, as stated earlier, was the 100 point minimum going away. There is no way I am going to spend $5,000 a year on Amtrak travel that will be required now to maintain Select Plus. Honestly --- If I am going to spend that much on a train trip it will be something much nice than Amtrak (VIA or private rail charter). Access to Amtrak lounges and United lounges was worth the $1000 or so a year doing "point runs"... not $5,000. Congrats to Anthony for all his hard work... he is a good guy and one of my good friends... but of course, all of the changes he made benefit Amtrak and not really me. So while Amtrak has to do what it has to do... and so do I. I don't see AGR being something I will wish to be involved with past 2/28/17. I wonder how many people will drop off the Select Plus rosters now. Maybe that was the goal though afterall --- maybe too many people had S+ and lounge access --- and they were looking to trim that down a little??!? Still, I guess that $1,000 I would spend on point runs and the 100-200 stats to the Hiawatha I would do -- can go somewhere else... probably United Club.


Probably more like a "soft landing" to Select. At least that's what's been claimed. I calculated the rock bottom cheapest way to get to S+ that would be reasonable to achieve (i.e. not involving Berkeley-Emeryville), and it was during a weekend 50% off special requiring 25 days for $300. I would have been less with the shorter trips, but that runs into issues with getting your ticket lifted.


----------



## jis

rtabern said:


> Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.
> 
> *MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!*


I am afraid you are singing to the choir, but if it helps your psyche go ahead and post another dozen examples. As I said, the entire purpose of this change is what you are complaining about. That is one thing, i.e. the basic core of the change is not going to get modified because we collectively posted 1600 examples of its consequences on AU. I am sure Anthony's crew thought long and hard about the pros and cons and came to a determination. It is not like they will fold because two dozen AGR gamers (which includes me on occasions) got upset 

I am sure minimizing the cost for someone who wants to travel via LAX from CHI to PDX was not very high on the agenda since such a traveler is not really considered to be a normal average Joe traveler.


----------



## BCL

rtabern said:


> My real beef, as stated earlier, was the 100 point minimum going away. There is no way I am going to spend $5,000 a year on Amtrak travel that will be required now to maintain Select Plus. Honestly --- If I am going to spend that much on a train trip it will be something much nice than Amtrak (VIA or private rail charter). Access to Amtrak lounges and United lounges was worth the $1000 or so a year doing "point runs"... not $5,000. Congrats to Anthony for all his hard work... he is a good guy and one of my good friends... but of course, all of the changes he made benefit Amtrak and not really me. So while Amtrak has to do what it has to do... and so do I. I don't see AGR being something I will wish to be involved with past 2/28/17. I wonder how many people will drop off the Select Plus rosters now. Maybe that was the goal though afterall --- maybe too many people had S+ and lounge access --- and they were looking to trim that down a little??!? Still, I guess that $1,000 I would spend on point runs and the 100-200 stats to the Hiawatha I would do -- can go somewhere else... probably United Club.


I wouldn't be too sure that he made the call on these changes. As far as I can tell, he works on the customer service end, but that doesn't mean that he had the final say on the changes. Maybe he contributed. Maybe he lobbied to keep some things the same or to make less drastic changes.

However, as far as I'm concerned those who should be the most aggrieved would be people who bought points in order to save for a big sleeper trip and who aren't quite there yet. While I always thought it was a strange way to save up for a trip, there were people relying on the value proposition to remain the same or at least not as drastic.


----------



## rrdude

rtabern said:


> Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.
> 
> *MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just randomly picked November 24th. Didn't realize it was that close to Thanksigving and was a blackout date.
> 
> But, fine, let's use another random date -- October 10, 2015 -- gathering weekend (not that I usually go, as I usually work to narrate a steam engine trip out of MSP that weekend).
> 
> This is EVEN WORSE than the previous example.
> 
> A roomette from CHI to PDX via LAX is going for $1,583 for 2 people. This would be 20,000 points under the current system, and it looks like 54,614 under the new system. Dude, this is almost TRIPLE the redemption cost.
> 
> Sure, you can put lipstick on a pig -- but you can't dress up how this new program is going to royally screw people trying to take bedrooms out west. Sure, your redemption for short hauls may go down, but I enjoy longer trips in bedrooms. A redemption going from 20,000 to 54,000 is un-acceptible!!!
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Tuesday of Thanksgiving week? I'm wildly unsurprised that the tickets are going to be priced out of this world.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention that 11/24/15 is an AGR blackout date, so a 20,000 point, two-zone roomette redemption CHI-PDX is not permitted under the present program.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Dude, it's gonna royally SUCK for some people, a LOT of people. But I'm on board with JIS, this makes perfect sense for Amtrak from a business perspective, it just royally SCREWS a lot of us who used to earn points by riding, spending, shopping, etc., etc.

I highly doubt there will be too many changes because of any "uproar". Some minor, I'm sure. But Amtrak's core market is NOT the group of devotees that frequent this, and other boards. We gotta basically "*****" then get it over it. Like me and others have said, "Burn 'em while ya can", and start saving for that Trans-Canada, or Indian sub-continent trip......


----------



## rtabern

Agreed with everything you said. Amtrak has every right to make the changes it is and it has to do what is best for the company. Likewise, I will do what is best for me, too -- burn off my points by 2016 and stop riding LD trains for the most part now between this and the other cuts made (maybe with the exception of a CS trip every now and then while the PPCs are still on). It's just sad some redemptions will cost TRIPLE what they did before though -- that is pretty extreme. I am admitedly an AGR "gamer". I liked taking rides from Milwaukee downtown to Milwaukee airport -- it was very relaxing to get away for a couple of hours and earn 300 points in the process (points and S+ bonus). It was nice to have the free lounge access with Select Plus to have an actual clean bathroom at Union Station in Chicago and the east coast stations. But, every good thing must come to an end.



jis said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check out October 7th too --- $1,852 is the price for CHI-PDX via LAX in a roomette. 20,000 points OLD SYSTEM ---- 63,894 NEW SYSTEM.
> 
> *MORE THAN TRIPLE THE POINTS COST!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> I am afraid you are singing to the choir, but if it helps your psyche go ahead and post another dozen examples. As I said, the entire purpose of this change is what you are complaining about. That is one thing, i.e. the basic core of the change is not going tog et modified because we collectively posted 1600 examples of its consequences on AU. I am sure Anothoy's crew thought long and hard about the pros and cons and came to a determination. It is not like they will fold because two dozen AGR gamers (which includes me on occasions) got upset
> 
> I am sure minimizing the cost for someone who wants to travel via LAX from CHI to PDX was not very high on the agenda since such a traveler is not really considered to be a normal average Joe traveler.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rail Freak

Am I seeing things or what!!! My Oct trip DEN-ELP-PGH-PHL-WPK-STP trip cost me 35k. The new rules will cost 83,145?!?!??

Oh, I forgot to add the $20 to get to STP!!!! NAAAAAH, it's been nice, but color me GONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BCL

rrdude said:


> Dude, it's gonna royally SUCK for some people, a LOT of people. But I'm on board with JIS, this makes perfect sense for Amtrak from a business perspective, it just royally SCREWS a lot of us who used to earn points by riding, spending, shopping, etc., etc.


Yeah - there's definitely a difference between catering to your most loyal customers vs ones that may spend a lot but are also consistently working over the system. Does anyone really think that the system as it currently exists was sustainable?

There was the infamous American Airlines AAirpass. AA learned to regret that and found whatever they could to cancel a pass.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Unfortunately Amtrak don't need us no more. After all, we are just bottom feeders, at least according to the 'young' apologists.

Boardman isn't going to go begging no more across the way from 60 Mass. and we are getting thrown under the train.

The fact that we were there when Amtrak thought it needed us don't matter.

We are just a bunch a old boomer geezers who can now sit here and type 'back in the day' stories while Millennials (Spell check doesn't like millennials!?!  What is up with that?) seem to gladly fill the trains - even LDs w/ no diner - 'cause these young 'uns don't know no better, and/or don't feel worthy. :giggle:

GAD!!! I sound just like my grandmother - who loved to tell me her pre-Amtrak and glory days of passenger rail stories! How the heck did I get this old? h34r:

It was a nice (points) run while it lasted. Can't help but feel a bit betrayed by a certain individual though... :blink:


----------



## jis

Don't blame Anthony. He is doing his job the best he can. His primary loyalty on this has got to be with his employer I am afraid. Otherwise I'd start getting really worried.


----------



## rrdude

Well, I've burned 'em all, almost all, up. Even transferred from my wife and kids account to me.

Coast Starlight. Two trips planned, both directions. Bedroom.

Cali Zephyr. Eastbound. Bedroom.

Cardinal. (I know, shocking for such a "Card hater" eh?) Eastbound.

Acela Boston to BWI. First Class

223 points left.............


----------



## The Davy Crockett

I hear you jis, but maybe it was too much talk of point runs in the lunch room. 

"There are these foamers at AU, and you wouldn't believe some of the stunts they pull. Did I tell you about the one who..."


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Dude -

Way to go!

223 points and a cup of coffee might get you BAL - BWI - low bucket - in the new system.


----------



## rtabern

Agreed. He is a good guy and friend. He did mention to me at the last gathering (during the ride to Mendota) that it was never a good idea to keep large amount of points in any loyality program when he heard I had 400,000 points built up (down to 280,000 now). Guess I didn't believe that some redemptions would cost TRIPLE in one swoop, but oh well... atleast I have until late January 2016 to figure out a plan to burn the points.



jis said:


> Don't blame him. He is doing his job the best he can. His primary loyalty on this has got to be with his employer I am afraid. Otherwise I'd start getting really worried.


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

Wow. Not looking to great here. Time to burn my 110,000 points. 

The last few pages of this thread feel like a discussion straight out of a Delta points thread about their dynamic award pricing.

Guess it makes sense though its clear that loyalty programs are on the way out.


----------



## tonys96

jebr said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, let me get this right... (an example of how horrible the new AGR redemption process will be)
> 
> Let's use November 24, 2015 as an example...
> 
> If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost me 20,000 points under the old system.
> 
> If I wanted a roomette from Chicago to Portland, OR (via LAX using #3 and #14) -- it would cost $1397.00 -- which according to the calculator on the new AGR page -- would be 48,197 points under the new system.
> 
> So, 20,000 points OLD system and 48,197 points NEW system? ***?????? That is more than a 100% de-valuation!!!
> 
> I can't believe there isn't more of an out-cry over this. Again, I know I am burning through my points and might not even use AGR anymore after 2/28/17 when my S+ status will expire.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only seeing $1197 (or 41,297) as the fare for two people in a roomette via LAX (3/14) for two people. This is for November 24.
> 
> Regardless, the "direct" route (via the Builder) is $708 for two people, or 24,426 points. That's about a 25% increase over a normal redemption. Considering that I can actually make the redemption (under the old system I couldn't do it at any number of points) I'd honestly consider that a net win. The indirect routes (or routes with connections) lose out big, but many people (I would argue most people, but unfortunately I don't have the statistics to back that up) will take the most direct route available, even on a points redemption.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.

Those of us out here in one train a day going either north or south land have zero choice. All of our routes are indirect. To go anywhere out west, except LA, we must go to Chicago first, adding a ton of $$$$ to any trip cost (and now point cost). Even going to LA first before going to points north on the CS is a far larger cost in points under this new scheme.

I love San Antonio......but do not want it to be my only Amtrak destination. Ditto Chicago. Ditto Little Rock. But they are the only destinations that are anywhere near the value of points pre-change.

I can see how folks in areas where there are multiple destinations available from a local station might come out ahead, or it be a wash, but those of us in the hinterlands just got a big devaluation of our points.


----------



## Manny T

My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.


----------



## tonys96

Manny T said:


> My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.


Yep. You are a winner in this randomness. Chi, NYP, STP, WAS, all winners. Here in Texas, we lose a great deal. Going to burn my 44k points before the change and likely say goodbye to LD Amtrak travel. Sadly.


----------



## jebr

Well, the example I was responding to does have a direct route, which is why I mentioned the direct route. People, in general, will take the most direct route available to them, unless there's a cost benefit to doing otherwise.

I did look at another test: Houston - Emeryville via the Sunset Limited and Coast Starlight on February 17. The cash cost was $526 (one person, roomette) which equals a points cost of 18,147 points. Not a huge win, but still slightly better than the 20,000 points before.

There's going to be quite a few redemptions that, for me, frankly, suck. There's no direct route for me other than for Seattle, Portland, Chicago, or points in between on the Empire Builder route. But I'm also unlikely to take the train for more than one, maybe two overnights unless it's particularly scenic, and I can drive up to Winnipeg for a nice rail trip if I really want one. AGR in either the old or new points system doesn't hold a candle to The Canadian in terms of pure rail trip-ness - for US$400 I can get a lower berth to Vancouver during a sale, which is cheaper than a 2-zone redemption. I'll still fly if it's a cross-country trip or it's going to take an unreasonable amount of time to take the train. For many of the redemptions that are feasible for me to take, the new system should work out okay, some devaluations here, some better redemptions there. I never really did a loop trip (closest was ATL - CVS - CHI - MTP, and the only reason I did that was because there was a LOT of luggage on that trip.) I'm excited to be able to use my points for shorter trips where rail isn't adding a ton of time to the trip and not feel like I'm wasting them.


----------



## tonys96

jebr said:


> Well, the example I was responding to does have a direct route, which is why I mentioned the direct route. People, in general, will take the most direct route available to them, unless there's a cost benefit to doing otherwise.
> 
> I did look at another test: Houston - Emeryville via the Sunset Limited and Coast Starlight on February 17. The cash cost was $526 (one person, roomette) which equals a points cost of 18,147 points. Not a huge win, but still slightly better than the 20,000 points before.
> 
> There's going to be quite a few redemptions that, for me, frankly, suck. There's no direct route for me other than for Seattle, Portland, Chicago, or points in between on the Empire Builder route. But I'm also unlikely to take the train for more than one, maybe two overnights unless it's particularly scenic, and I can drive up to Winnipeg for a nice rail trip if I really want one. AGR in either the old or new points system doesn't hold a candle to The Canadian in terms of pure rail trip-ness - for US$400 I can get a lower berth to Vancouver during a sale, which is cheaper than a 2-zone redemption. I'll still fly if it's a cross-country trip or it's going to take an unreasonable amount of time to take the train. For many of the redemptions that are feasible for me to take, the new system should work out okay, some devaluations here, some better redemptions there. I never really did a loop trip (closest was ATL - CVS - CHI - MTP, and the only reason I did that was because there was a LOT of luggage on that trip.) I'm excited to be able to use my points for shorter trips where rail isn't adding a ton of time to the trip and not feel like I'm wasting them.


Your example would be a net loss for two people, though. Currently the same points cost, soon to be different. I enjoy the train, but if I travel LD alone, I go coach due to cost. When traveling with a lady friend, we go sleeper. Same reason, mostly, plus comfort.

Also, under the new scheme, going from FTW to OKC will have to be a cash deal. Cost is too small to make it to 800 points.......


----------



## oregon pioneer

I've done a little checking, and for me, this is pretty much a "wash." I understand wanting to get the most out of a trip for the least points. If both time and points balance permitted, I've done that too (incuding on my upcoming trip Bend Oregon to BOS, via the CS, CZ, and Card eastbound, and the LSL, SWC, and CS westbound).

Those days are over, for me. I can no longer afford the points or the cash to do that kind of a trip. But new possibilities have opened up. Our next planned trip on Hubby's points is Pasco WA (PSC) to MSP on the Empire Builder. Back in the Old Days, this would be 20,000 points. Just checking for this December (we don't yet know what year, but it will be the second weekend of December), the points cost for two of us in a roomette is 16,560. No complaints! A trip to LAX on the CS is just about a wash on 15,000 points either way.

We always go in low season, when fares are pretty much always low bucket. We use Amsnag, and are always flexible by a day or two. And we don't mind taking the direct route instead of the scenic route, since travel just for travel's sake is something we almost never do.


----------



## SteveSFL

I'm in the same boat as tonys96 since I'm in Houston. Since the routes from Chicago seem to be a better value under the new program, I may start flying to Chicago on a cheap southwest fare (I've seen $49-$59) and start my trips there.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

As someone who travels long distance in sleepers during the expensive summer season, this is going to drastically increase my points costs. Our usual trip out west from Toledo costs 20,000 points each way under the current system, but will cost about 37,000 under the new system, thus nearly doubling our costs. And that's calculating the cost NOW, nearly a year out, when the buckets are as low as summer gets. Traveling by train will no longer be cheaper than flying (after factoring in all the points we earn each year), but I guess that's understandable. Whether it's still affordable for us is still up for debate.

On the positive side, Amtrak is giving us a decent warning, so hopefully we can plan a trip for summer 2016 while still under the current system. There's still only one one major long-distance route that we've never taken - the Zephyr - so maybe this will be the year!


----------



## BCL

I guess as a quick summary for the boat I'm in.....

Ending the 100-point minimum hurts me big time. That's basically how I got most of my points. My average one way ticket cost about $14, and that would get me 100 or 200 points.

However, I have 30,000 points now, and I'll probably use them to get a few multi-ride tickets and maybe plan a few short trips.


----------



## MiRider

Manny T said:


> My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.


I wrote something almost just like this earlier today and didn't post it.

I am going to do exactly the same thing. I agree that Chicago does give us an edge but, c'est la vie.

I'm really interested in seeing how points/cash redemptions are going to play out - paying cash for the rail fare and points for the sleeper would be awesome and a real points stretcher while still allowing us to earn points.


----------



## SteveSFL

My bet is that you would only earn points on the cash portion of the ticket.


----------



## George K

MiRider said:


> paying cash for the rail fare and points for the sleeper would be awesome


What? Is that an option? I didn't see that.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Are awesome and AGR even allowed to be used in the same sentence any more?


----------



## MiRider

SteveSTX said:


> My bet is that you would only earn points on the cash portion of the ticket.


I'm sure it is. I certainly wouldn't expect to receive points for using points, for cash I would.



George K said:


> MiRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> paying cash for the rail fare and points for the sleeper would be awesome
> 
> 
> 
> What? Is that an option? I didn't see that.
Click to expand...

From the AGR email I received on 8/27:

Q: How do I purchase a ticket with both points and money?

A: Coming in 2016, you‘ll be offered a combination of points and cash during the booking process for tickets, so you can spend less of both. Until then, you have the option of buying points if you need to ”top off“ your account to get your next reward.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

The devil may be in the details. We shall see.


----------



## MiRider

The Davy Crockett said:


> Are awesome and AGR even allowed to be used in the same sentence any more?


Here's my take on any kind of *reward* anything.

If a company wants to give me a perk for doing/buying something that I planned on anyway, I will gladly take it and say thank you.

Their perk, their rules - I can work with it.

Luckily, I learned about AGR here, on AU, before my first trip.

I look at AGR as an extra bonus and not something that I'm entitled to, much less complain about.

I will take the train at a price that works for me, points or not.

I've enjoyed my free trips with points before and I'm looking forward to planning some more with the new program.


----------



## SarahZ

MiRider said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are awesome and AGR even allowed to be used in the same sentence any more?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my take on any kind of *reward* anything.
> 
> If a company wants to give me a perk for doing/buying something that I planned on anyway, I will gladly take it and say thank you.
> 
> Their perk, their rules - I can work with it.
> 
> Luckily, I learned about AGR here, on AU, before my first trip.
> 
> I look at AGR as an extra bonus and not something that I'm entitled to, much less complain about.
> 
> I will take the train at a price that works for me, points or not.
> 
> I've enjoyed my free trips with points before and I'm looking forward to planning some more with the new program.
Click to expand...

Yassss...


----------



## The Davy Crockett

There is no such thing as a free lunch. And Amtak just took a big slice of my lunch pie (literally and figuratively) that I earned by being a loyal customer. I should be grateful? Nah.

Combined with all the other gutting that has been done, it is obvious the Scrooges are on the other side of the Potomac from me.


----------



## Ryan

MiRider said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are awesome and AGR even allowed to be used in the same sentence any more?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my take on any kind of *reward* anything.
> 
> If a company wants to give me a perk for doing/buying something that I planned on anyway, I will gladly take it and say thank you.
> 
> Their perk, their rules - I can work with it.
> 
> Luckily, I learned about AGR here, on AU, before my first trip.
> 
> I look at AGR as an extra bonus and not something that I'm entitled to, much less complain about.
> 
> I will take the train at a price that works for me, points or not.
> 
> I've enjoyed my free trips with points before and I'm looking forward to planning some more with the new program.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bob Dylan

And no mention of the benefit and convienence of being able to book AGR Sleeper travel on-line as the now hidden original Marketing blurb for LOSSAN trumpeted!!!

Seriously? With Amtrak's Computer System? Maybe by 2020 or so if this is even true?


----------



## George K

MiRider, yes, I did see that about the ability to combine points and cash - in fact, I commented on it as being a nice new feature. However, I'd be surprised if I were allowed to pay for one portion with points and the other with cash. I'd not be surprised if the "combine points and cash" option were applied to the _entire_ purchase, not just the part that benefits you the most.


----------



## Ryan

What "portions" are you talking about? Most cash+points booking methods work pretty simply. You can buy a $1000 ticket with cash, or redeem 34,000 points. Or you can use $500 and 17,000 points. Or $750 and 8500 points. Or any other possible combination.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Good one Ryan!

Before your time, but the Demos took this Motto and changed it to : "In your guts you know he's nuts! All the way with LBJ!!


----------



## benale

Well..ten years of making point runs..usually ELT-HAR or LNC for $11 R/T and 250 points..now down to 30 with the new system. with my Select status. Hope Double days are back next month. I plan doing a lot of these point runs while I still can. The trip we returned from in June was probably the last big one for awhile. Toledo-LA using The Texas Eagle and back using The Coast Starlight and Empire Builder. We drove to Toledo from Central Pa to begin the two zone run. End of an era. I gained a whole lot of points with that $100 minimum.. I'm the kind of Amtrak traveler that will be affected adversely by the new system..and the 800 point redemptions? They are for trips that cost up to $25...Trips I would take as Point Runs. I'll probably lose my Select status as soon as the 100 point minimum's are history.


----------



## George K

Ryan said:


> What "portions" are you talking about? Most cash+points booking methods work pretty simply. You can buy a $1000 ticket with cash, or redeem 34,000 points. Or you can use $500 and 17,000 points. Or $750 and 8500 points. Or any other possible combination.


Eggzaktly.


----------



## tonys96

Ryan said:


> MiRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are awesome and AGR even allowed to be used in the same sentence any more?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's my take on any kind of *reward* anything.
> 
> If a company wants to give me a perk for doing/buying something that I planned on anyway, I will gladly take it and say thank you.
> 
> Their perk, their rules - I can work with it.
> 
> Luckily, I learned about AGR here, on AU, before my first trip.
> 
> I look at AGR as an extra bonus and not something that I'm entitled to, much less complain about.
> 
> I will take the train at a price that works for me, points or not.
> 
> I've enjoyed my free trips with points before and I'm looking forward to planning some more with the new program.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0440_lg.jpeg
Click to expand...

Or as Landslide Lyndon said about Goldwater:

In your guts, you know (s)he's nuts.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Anyone use that one, or similar, against you in your races Tony?


----------



## NorthShore

tonys96 said:


> Those of us out here in one train a day going either north or south land have zero choice. All of our routes are indirect. To go anywhere out west, except LA, we must go to Chicago first, adding a ton of $$$$ to any trip cost (and now point cost). Even going to LA first before going to points north on the CS is a far larger cost in points under this new scheme.
> 
> I love San Antonio......but do not want it to be my only Amtrak destination. Ditto Chicago. Ditto Little Rock. But they are the only destinations that are anywhere near the value of points pre-change.
> 
> I can see how folks in areas where there are multiple destinations available from a local station might come out ahead, or it be a wash, but those of us in the hinterlands just got a big devaluation of our points.


So, sort of like what has happened with Greyound, where they've cut fares between significant cities and raised them for intermediate stops (or just eliminated service to those stations entirely.)


----------



## BCL

Ryan said:


> What "portions" are you talking about? Most cash+points booking methods work pretty simply. You can buy a $1000 ticket with cash, or redeem 34,000 points. Or you can use $500 and 17,000 points. Or $750 and 8500 points. Or any other possible combination.


The ones I've seen (my credit card) allow one to tap out all the available points, then pay with cash to make up the difference. I didn't see anywhere to specify a combination.


----------



## tonys96

jimhudson said:


> Anyone use that one, or similar, against you in your races Tony?


Not yet! 

But they have missed a real opportunity!! 

A few months ago, I got 85% in a three way race for re-election. That was my eighth campaign and likely my last. Previous election, my opponent was the recently retired police chief. Only got 61% against him. :wacko: I think in 2018 it might just be time for me to move on to something different.

Had hoped to make some points paid excursions after retiring. So much for that idea, now.


----------



## tonys96

BCL said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What "portions" are you talking about? Most cash+points booking methods work pretty simply. You can buy a $1000 ticket with cash, or redeem 34,000 points. Or you can use $500 and 17,000 points. Or $750 and 8500 points. Or any other possible combination.
> 
> 
> 
> The ones I've seen (my credit card) allow one to tap out all the available points, then pay with cash to make up the difference. I didn't see anywhere to specify a combination.
Click to expand...

IHG allows you to use points + cash for rooms. usually not a good deal, though, as they do not give you much for your points. Have seen rooms for 15K points or $100 per night, or 10k points and $65, or a variant thereof. Usually better to just bite the points bullet, or the cash bullet.


----------



## Kat314159

Things don't look to shabby from St. Louis either other than losing my flat rate 1500pts to Chicago. (Like when the seat is inexplicably $90 coach and its not the day before). Yes I'll need to plan my redemptions a bit more carefully and I'll spend more points for somethings but being one corridor train away from Chicago seems to be a relatively sweet spot. I think the only better rail times in St. Louis were back in the day when my Great-Grandpa engineered for IL Central. Well before AGR


----------



## SteveSFL

Anthony posted a reply and some info over on flyertalk.

One thing he mentioned was that auto train would be like any other points redemption: based on ticket price.


----------



## Orie

I'm very glad about the removal of blackout dates as well. I'm a young worker... so I work quite a bit. Sometimes 6 days a week. I only really do LD train travel on holidays... July 4th, Thanksgiving, New Years, etc. I understand redemption may be more expensive because holiday fares are more expensive, but it's better then not using the points at all because of a blackout.


----------



## seat38a

Well it looks like the 25% BC and 50% FC bonus are NOT TQP. Wow its getting better and better.


----------



## Eris

It seems to me that some folks who commute a lot, and do high-value points runs, maybe have been previously disconnected with the *extremely* high costs of LD rail travel, accumulating points with short/local trips and using them for long distance.

I got priced out of Family Bedrooms years ago, except that this past year, with improved credit so qualifying for the AGR card, with its bonus points, I was able to accumulate (and purchase) enough points for a couple of trips in the family room. I'm probably back to being priced out, but on the other hand it appears there may be times when two roomettes for two adults (one is a young teen) and one child on my typical run (between Seattle and the Los Angeles area) are about the same number of points as a bedroom/family bedroom used to be, and also times when a bedroom is reasonably pointed as well- I think two roomettes might be better for us these days than the Family bedroom, with my 5'+ tall children.

The rest of our trips we'll probably be in coach, paying cash, just like we've been for years. Ain't comfortable, but still beats flying. At least for now.


----------



## NW cannonball

For me here in MSP, the 2-zone roomette for 20K points was the sweet spot on the old zone system. Anywhere East Coast, West coast, super good deal on points.

But, East Coast especially, that lost a lot of value with EB connections failing last year or so.

On the upside, the old zone system hit me hard for West Coast trips when I wanted to do a 2-3 day layover in, say, ABQ or ELP or MOT or anywhere in-between.

I seldom travel peak summer season (heat and crowding bother me).

Think I'll burn my 40K points soonish going west.

Will definitely NOT quit the program, the points are worth much more than zero.

Whoever said that "loyalty progs" (just another word for "volume rebates") are going away -- hehe notnot. (S&H Green stamps was still alive last time I looked)

Such programs or rebates or whatever continue to make sense for the sellers -- whether airlines, Amtrak, Walgreens, Panera. Not only because of priming customers to choose the "rewards" supplier first,but because the frequent user is "a lot" cheaper to deal with -- say at checkin and boarding. Frequent users of Amtrak, say, know how to find their car, or room, or at AA, know how to get the kiosks to issue a baggage check. Frequent buyers at local hardware store know what's likely to be in stock, don't make unreasonable requests.

That adds up to a lot less handholding at the platform or boarding gate. (Hope Amtrak doesn't have to hire more gate-dragons to improve ridership  )

In other words, frequent fliers, or buyers, are cheaper for the seller to deal with, cause they know the rules, what to expect, when to go sit down, when to complain.

Any seller loves a low-cost buyer that has learned the rules of interaction


----------



## bryan9

Received the AGR 2.0 email late last night (Friday, August 28) -- this is the sort of time slot you choose if you're releasing bad news. The question is, how bad? It's hard to tell, since single-leg bucket pricing varies so much dependent on demand, advance reservation time, etc. I just plugged a few numbers in based on our typical travel from Charlottesville, VA (CVS) to Chicago and Colorado. Very tentative conclusions, based on two seniors and the point estimator at http://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/ (scroll down to find the estimator):

* *Doing away with the zones may have real advantages for travel that terminates just beyond a zone boundary *(e.g., CVS to CHI). Under the current system, a round trip with bedrooms is 80,000 points! Under the new system, based on a round trip departing Tues Sept. 25 and returning Fri Sept 29, the same trip would cost 39,300 points under AGR 2.0.

* *Bucket pricing means travel will be more costly on high-demand routes. *For a roomette round trip between CVS and Grand Junction, CO in early October, a three-zone trip with current pricing is 70,000 points; under AGR 2.0, the same trip costs 83,076 points. Here, the AGR 2.0 advantage for traveling just beyond the zone boundary (Denver) seems to be eliminated due to high demand on the Zephyr route.

**AGR 2.0 will very substantially raise the cost of exploits possible under the zone system (e.g., CVS-LAX-Seattle-CVS) due to the necessity to use points for each leg. *Currently, we could to a transcon for 120,000 points but this would go up to 190,000 based on a sampled October trip.


Based on this admittedly not very exhaustive research, I'd say that AGR 2.0 isn't the unmitigated disaster that I feared it would be, as long as you can be really flexible with your travel dates.


----------



## City of Miami

That's when I got the email too, bryan9. I agree with your conclusions. No more trips on the Cardinal (buckets always too high), but more trips to Chicago via the Capital Ltd.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I still have yet to exercise my Buy Points option this year and now wonder under the new system if it is worth buying Points....


----------



## Anderson

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I still have yet to exercise my Buy Points option this year and now wonder under the new system if it is worth buying Points....


The answer is _probably_ somewhere between "no" and "hell no" unless you can burn them before the turnover. Right now the cost is $0.0377/point while on non-Acela tickets the value is about $0.0289/point. Put another way, a block of 500 points will cost you $18.85 but only get you $14.49 in benefits (net cost of $4.35). There's a pile of asterisks:

(1) If a 30% bonus comes up and you can file the purchase with a favorable credit card, such a purchase would actually be an effective method of manufactured spending (since the cost and value would be within a single cent of one another before any card-related bonuses. Above 30% the transaction makes sense on its own merits; below 30% the transaction does not make sense, full stop.

(2) Acela awards are less valuable. Don't buy points if you intend to use them on the Acela absent some absurdly good deal.

(2b) Better idea: Don't use points on the Acela. To expound upon this, earning points on the Acela is somewhat improved (read: This Is Oriented To Expense Accounts) but redeeming is...not.

(3) With the cash-plus-points thing, that's a wait-and-see. There are a few ways that may work...for example, with Holiday Inn the "cash and points" offers technically involve a point purchase in lieu of using stockpiled points.


----------



## TinCan782

bryan9 said:


> Received the AGR 2.0 email late last night (Friday, August 28) -- this is the sort of time slot you choose if you're releasing bad news. The question is, how bad? It's hard to tell, since single-leg bucket pricing varies so much dependent on demand, advance reservation time, etc. I just plugged a few numbers in based on our typical travel from Charlottesville, VA (CVS) to Chicago and Colorado. Very tentative conclusions, based on two seniors and the point estimator at http://agr.amtrak.com/rideon/ (scroll down to find the estimator):
> 
> * *Doing away with the zones may have real advantages for travel that terminates just beyond a zone boundary *(e.g., CVS to CHI). Under the current system, a round trip with bedrooms is 80,000 points! Under the new system, based on a round trip departing Tues Sept. 25 and returning Fri Sept 29, the same trip would cost 39,300 points under AGR 2.0.
> 
> * *Bucket pricing means travel will be more costly on high-demand routes. *For a roomette round trip between CVS and Grand Junction, CO in early October, a three-zone trip with current pricing is 70,000 points; under AGR 2.0, the same trip costs 83,076 points. Here, the AGR 2.0 advantage for traveling just beyond the zone boundary (Denver) seems to be eliminated due to high demand on the Zephyr route.
> 
> **AGR 2.0 will very substantially raise the cost of exploits possible under the zone system (e.g., CVS-LAX-Seattle-CVS) due to the necessity to use points for each leg. *Currently, we could to a transcon for 120,000 points but this would go up to 190,000 based on a sampled October trip.
> 
> 
> Based on this admittedly not very exhaustive research, I'd say that AGR 2.0 isn't the unmitigated disaster that I feared it would be, as long as you can be really flexible with your travel dates.


My recent LAX to WAS round trip (TE>CL>CL>SWC) was 120,000 points, under the new program it would be 154,457 points. Last years LAX to SEA round trip (CS>CS) was 50,000 points, under the new program it would be 61,480 points.

The new points "cost" was calculated because when I booked these AGR redemptions, I also did a regular test booking to see what the dollar amount for the same ticket would be. It was those numbers I plugged into the online points estimator. Since I was paying via AGR redemption, the current bucket didn't matter. That's all different now! If my travel is around a particular event, I guess I'll have to take what (bucket) I get.

I also noted from their FAQ on preventing points from expiring: *"Amtrak Guest Rewards® MasterCard® cardholders‘ points will not expire as long as your credit card account is open."* They mention MasterCard, although no particular bank. Hmmm...still gonna be a MasterCard (bank to be announced) vs Visa as I've seen in some discussions?


----------



## C855B

Welllllllll... I've been not reading this thread, and I should have. This morning I received the e-mail from AGR about the new program. I checked the preview pages, and I now dearly regret buying points during the "win a discount" promotion.

In short, my wife and I are screwed under the new redemption system for our LD travel. Our most frequent (one zone) trip now costs twice as many points, our annual LD trip (two zones) is 25% more.

What we need to do is take a trip before the end of the year to burn what we have, and simply just blow-off AGR points from the Chase card (or BofA, or whoever) as a poor value. We'll simply start using another card as our "primary", one that has a more conventional points-to-cash conversion, and we'll be dollars ahead.

Whoever designed this plan has succeeded in taking us off the train and putting us back in the car. We can't be the only ones, so I can't help but think this is a backdoor ploy to whittle away at LD ridership numbers.


----------



## bryan9

City of Miami said:


> That's when I got the email too, bryan9. I agree with your conclusions. No more trips on the Cardinal (buckets always too high), but more trips to Chicago via the Capital Ltd.


Even though the Cardinal is more convenient for us and faster (CVS-Chicago), we prefer the Capitol Ltd anyway -- the food is actually edible and, at least in my experience, there are fewer delays. --Bryan


----------



## bryan9

C855B said:


> Whoever designed this plan has succeeded in taking us off the train and putting us back in the car. We can't be the only ones, so I can't help but think this is a backdoor ploy to whittle away at LD ridership numbers.


This is very sad to contemplate. Perhaps there's a less drastic motive? In my experience, even in peak periods, several sleeping car passengers are using their AGR points -- and, during high buckets, they're taking beaucoup revenue away from Amtrak (presumably). AGR 2.0 strikes me as a way to (1) eliminate exploits possible under the zone system and (2) encourage AGR pointholders to travel on lower bucket routes/dates, thereby creating space that can be sold at a much higher profit. --Bryan


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Anderson said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still have yet to exercise my Buy Points option this year and now wonder under the new system if it is worth buying Points....
> 
> 
> 
> (3) With the cash-plus-points thing, that's a wait-and-see. There are a few ways that may work...for example, with Holiday Inn the "cash and points" offers technically involve a point purchase in lieu of using stockpiled points.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input Anderson. Since I usually have used Points on long 2 seg runs, this new program will likely wean me off of overnight train travel and back to the dreaded airlines, and only if I deem the trip essential.

But I am curious about the Cash plus Points Program. Maybe there will be some salvation in there.


----------



## Manny T

I use Amtrak for transportation from Point A to Point B. In the process I joined AGR and I accumulate points. When I traveled CHI-MKE I enjoyed the 100 point minimum.

When I have enough points for a free trip, I take it. This is how it will work for me under AGR 2.0 as well, except the 100 pt. minimum is gone.

Forgive me if I'm not familiar with a "points run." Someone mentioned an $11 round trip that earned 250 points (100 minimum x2 + bonus). Is it the case that people would take this round trip repeatedly, over and over again, just to earn some multiple of 250 points? E.g. take this RT 8 times in sequence just to add 2,000 points to their AGR accounts? And now these folks are complaining that this option for gaming the system* is being taken away?

If so, it seems to me that I will now lose this benefit for MY short trips because Amtrak HQ decided to put an end to THEIR abuse of the system. In other words, they ruined it for me!

[*Is it "gaming the system?" I realize they paid for their $11 trips and got the bonus points Amtrak offered. But perhaps the volume of minimums was more than the system could bear.]


----------



## Barciur

Am I calculating this correctly?

My only regular trip is LNC-PHL. I hardly travel by AMTRAK elsewhere. It costs $28 round trip. So that's 200 points per trip. If I took that trip 20 times, that's *4000* points. Under the new system, this will net me* 1120* points. Is that correct? Boy, now that's a devaluation of my travel...


----------



## PaulM

Your points are going away

True, but don't panic The new regime is not only a drastic devaluation in point value, oops, I mean dollar credit per dollar spent, but truly represents a dramatic simplification of the system. No more needing to make AGR reservation by phone, no more arbitrary zones, no more arbitrary rules such as the pernicious "published route" rule, overnight sillyness, no paid upgrades, no mixed reward and paid reservations, blackouts, etc.

First the devaluation

It was always difficult to put a value on points because it depended on the zones and current bucket price. But my rule has been that if, a point wasn't worth at least $0.07, I would pay for the ticket. To see what will happen, I used the calculator found at the new website to evaluate a 2 zone roomette reservation costing $2000, which was about the lowest I could find over a 15 day period in January from DEN to ORL (a shortest path route I do every other January).

The result for a non-status member

Price = 2000

Points credited = 4000 (note this is the same as the old regime)

Points required for future travel = 69,000

Points required for future travel under the old regime = 20000

So it takes 69/20 = 3.45 more points. And since the points earned hasn't changed, the devaluation % is (100-20/69) or 71%. If I were to use a high bucket price, the devaluation would be even more drastic.

How did the points disappear? From the calculator you can calculate the points/dollar spent on Amtrak travel and the points/dollar of award travel. In my example these were 2.0 and 34.5, respectively. Dividing the two, the points cancel out and you are left with dollars earned for award travel per dollar spent on Amtrak travel. In other words, 2/34.5 = $0.0579. For my example under the old regime, if I spent 10,000, I earned enough points for the two zone roomette, so the dollars spent per dollar value was 2000/10000 or $0.20 earned per dollar spent.

Now for the simplification

How can Amtrak do it without points and without a drastic change to the archaic reservation system? Simple, treat the dollars credited as a exchange or return voucher, label it AGR. No change in the reservation system required; when you want to redeem the points, simply apply the voucher and legacy calculations apply.

Only a change in the AGR system procedure that credited points is needed. Instead of updating the number of points earned, it updates the AGR exchange voucher with the dollars credited. Of course, a one time program would be needed to create each member's AGR voucher and convert the points to dollars.

What about credit card "Points"

The new FAQS don't mention the points earned per dollar spent with whatever CC is in store. But since there is no change in Amtrak travel earning, I assume the CC will still earn 1 point per dollar. Therefore, the dollar credit per dollar spent would be half of Amtrak travel, namely 2.90 cents per dollar.

Bottom line

While the devaluation for Amtrak travel is depressing, the 5.79 cents per dollar is still makes membership worth keeping. But I definitely will book my Florida trip before the cutoff date.

However, the 2.90 for the CC is something else. I used to even use the Chase MC for paying federal taxes (not a trivial amount since I'm in the IRA minimum required distribution stage) not only for the convenience but because the 1.88% service charge compared to the 7 or 8% return I could expect, made it a no-brainer. It now looks like I need to start CC shopping.

PS: I forgot to mention that the reason I think the "published route" and overnight rules will go away is that that is no reason why you couldn't book a multi-city trip and then apply the AGR voucher to it.


----------



## C855B

bryan9 said:


> ... (2) encourage AGR pointholders to travel on lower bucket routes/dates, thereby creating space that can be sold at a much higher profit.


OK, given our travel is usually somewhat flexible, then please advise how to determine when planned travel is on a low-bucket date. For the Western LD trains, there are no low-bucket routes - WYSIWYG. Maybe I've missed the feature on amtrak.com, but I have been unable to determine low fare/high fare date differentials other than just randomly poking dates into the site. Some of the airline sites have a fare calendar page to help with this.

Anyway, I still don't see a positive motive in the restructuring, which from my own little world view seems to punish the LD traveler more. Amtrak has been making a lot of small service reductions lately, some not of their making, but some are, which in total amounts to a "death by a thousand cuts" sort of thing.


----------



## C855B

Oh... I might add that under the old system, we didn't have to pay much attention to date- or route-based differentials, booking was easy and convenient. No more, now we have to work the system to get value for "conventional" (non-abusive routings) point-to-point travel. This, to me, is a reduction in customer service, and a heckuva way to treat your frequent (_i.e._, AGR) riders.

If Amtrak wants to redeem itself on this, they can do a fare calendar, or other similar concept to let you know that if you left one, two, or three days plus-or-minus your target departure, fares would be $X less, or something like that.


----------



## bryan9

C855B said:


> please advise how to determine when planned travel is on a low-bucket date.


I used to use amsnag for this (http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php), but it seems to be down... does anyone know what's up with the site?

PaulM said: "Your points are going away," but this depends a lot on the route, bucket, compartment vs. bedroom, etc. One conclusion I'm adding to my list is that the severest impacts are likely to be on people doing former 2-zone compartment trips -- that really was the "sweet spot" in the zone system.


----------



## AlamoWye

I was also wondering about sleeper redemptions under the new system. It use to be (still is?) that when booking a sleeper you got low-bucket fare for the fare portion. Is this going away also when booking sleepers using AGR?


----------



## BCL

Manny T said:


> Forgive me if I'm not familiar with a "points run." Someone mentioned an $11 round trip that earned 250 points (100 minimum x2 + bonus). Is it the case that people would take this round trip repeatedly, over and over again, just to earn some multiple of 250 points? E.g. take this RT 8 times in sequence just to add 2,000 points to their AGR accounts? And now these folks are complaining that this option for gaming the system* is being taken away?


I remember hearing about members at the AU Gathering in the Bay Area who were taking BKY-EMY, which is about 2 miles, but listed as $7.50 (minus any discounts like AAA).

However, my favorite points runs were RIC-EMY-SFC either on Capitol Corridor or the San Joaquin. I'd done that several times to make Select. Regular price was $11 or $12, but back in 2013 there was the Capitol Corridor weekend 50% promotion with 3 days advance purchase. I preferred RIC because there was more time to track down a conductor to lift the ticket. And the bus runs counted as 100 points too, and the driver made sure to scan a ticket before allowing a passenger on board. So with the discount it was $12 for 400 TQPs, plus Double Days (sometimes overlapped) plus any Select/+ bonus.

Heck - on weekends if the trains/buses stay on schedule, it's possible to get those four segments (400 points) done in just over two hours, and that's with a half hour layover in San Francisco. It was pretty good at the Ferry Building, but the Temporary Transbay Terminal isn't as great a location for that. The outbound buses are also guaranteed connections so they'll wait if the train is late.

The schedule I was thinking of was RIC-EMY (7:15-7:30 on #723), EMY-SFC (bus 7:30-8:00), SFC-EMY (bus 8:25-7:55), EMY-RIC (9:05-9:17). The bus to San Francisco will typically arrive early since there's light weekend morning traffic. So 400 TQPs from 122 minutes end to end.


----------



## Anderson

C855B said:


> Oh... I might add that under the old system, we didn't have to pay much attention to date- or route-based differentials, booking was easy and convenient. No more, now we have to work the system to get value for "conventional" (non-abusive routings) point-to-point travel. This, to me, is a reduction in customer service, and a heckuva way to treat your frequent (_i.e._, AGR) riders.
> 
> If Amtrak wants to redeem itself on this, they can do a fare calendar, or other similar concept to let you know that if you left one, two, or three days plus-or-minus your target departure, fares would be $X less, or something like that.


The word you are looking for is "Amsnag". Really, this sort of thing is why Amsnag was programmed.


----------



## bryan9

PaulM said:


> I used the calculator found at the new website to evaluate a 2 zone roomette reservation costing $2000, which was about the lowest I could find over a 15 day period in January from DEN to ORL (a shortest path route I do every other January).
> 
> The result for a non-status member
> 
> Price = 2000
> 
> Points credited = 4000 (note this is the same as the old regime)
> 
> Points required for future travel = 69,000
> 
> Points required for future travel under the old regime = 20000


Maybe I just got lucky, but for 1/11/2016, I got a $910 fare for a one-way roomette trip DEN-ORL. This will cost 31,395 points under AGR 2.0 according to the calculator. Did you price a round-trip by any chance? If so, the points required today would be 40,000, not 20,000.


----------



## PaulM

They say make it short and sweet. My spiel must have been two long to wade through.



> PaulM said: "Your points are going away," but this depends a lot on the route, bucket, compartment vs. bedroom, etc. One conclusion I'm adding to my list is that the severest impacts are likely to be on people doing former 2-zone compartment trips -- that really was the "sweet spot" in the zone system.


If my theory is correct, you will no longer collect "points", just as you never collected "miles". Rather you collect a few cents per dollar spent which get credited to future travel.

But I do agree with your sweet spot. My favorite was Quincy to San Diego via Chicago and Portland, a two zoner.



> I was also wondering about sleeper redemptions under the new system. It use to be (still is?) that when booking a sleeper you got low-bucket fare for the fare portion. Is this going away also when booking sleepers using AGR?


Again, if my theory is correct, there is no change to the reservation system. You will now be able to apply AGR dollar credits to the fare calculated as always.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Suggestion to AGR and Amtrak:

Hire Paul M. as a Contracted Consultant to implement the plan he mentions in his excellent post explaining a simpler, fairer, New AGR3.0 that benefits both Amtrak and we, the loyal customers!Win!/Win!

And to the posters who have problems with those of us who make "point runs" to acquire points to use for LD trips:

Those of us that live where there is only one train a day,( or less or none!) ie in flyover country, have to use LD Trains to acquire points ( along with using our AGR Chase MC or other Cards). The 100 Point Minimum was nice, but it wasn't really "gaming the system", it was the only game in town!

Plus there was a 4 segment limit a day on point runs ( good for those who live on Corridors) and during double and triple bonus days, the limit was two! We paid for the listed Amtrak Fare, minus any discounts offered, so how was this gaming the system?

My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!

Way to stick it to us guys, maybe you can send us a jar of Vasoline as a Bonus?!!! Why not just do away with all Discounts, publish your Fares and be done with it! EZ-PZ!!!!

Now we await the New AGR Master Card ( most probably BOA)Rollout! Wonder what hidden devaluations and " Gotchas!" will be in this surprise package?

Changing your Motto to "Less is More and More for Less!!" may look good in a Biz School power point presentation, but as a Loyalty Model it sucks! No way to treat your good customers guys! YMMV

Marketing Spin and Speak may sound good @ 60 Mass and to the Mica Managers on the Hill, but it doesn't fool us out here in the real world! Rewards is not a synonym for Penalties!

Pleeeeze! You got some splainin' to do!

Addition": Re :Cheys post; Yep, cue the Travelin' Wilburys singing "End of the Line". Perfect!!!


----------



## Chey

Sad to say, I think this is it for me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqhdRs4jyA (OK, yeah, a little dramatic, but I am sad)

It was never convenient, driving to FTW or ABQ and paying for safe parking, or riding the bus and paying bus fare (I always needed a station I could check luggage and those are the closest, not less than 300 miles either way).

I have enough points for 1 one-way, two-zone trip before January. I'm thinking of going to LAX but not sure if I want to take the SWC (I've never seen the Raton Pass) or the SL (and finally experience the transition from Eagle to SL).


----------



## siberianmo

_*Ahoy Disgruntled Rewards "Club" Members,*_

_*Without repeating my post #309 on page 16 of this topic, I am most happy to see all of the dialogue.*_

_*Wondering, does anyone "out there" know - really know - whether the folks at Amtrak Guest Rewards read these *_

_*posts? If they do, one would think there should be a re-evaluation of a program going wrong.*_

_*This is not about getting something for nothing, as one alluded to in perhaps different words - it is about earning *_

_*an opportunity by paying for the points. That is after all what we all do - we pay for the points through our ticket *_

_*purchases. If one thinks otherwise, perhaps one should come up for air and view the sunlight. "There is no free lunch," *_

_*as a professor of mine used to put it while explaining the Law's of Thermodynamics and I for one am not looking for *_

_*something for nothing. As many here have attested to, we have tithed quite well and often to Amtrak through taxes *_

_*and of course travel.*_

_*Anyway . . . boiler plate responses to letters and Emails are pretty much "it" it these times, whether it be Amtrak, *_

_*IHG or Amazon.com.*_

_*My plans are to burn through my points remaining (over 150k at this juncture) by making reservations well into *_

_*2016. Guest Rewards told me by phone that redemptions made before the "drop dead" date will be honored at *_

_*the current rates. After that, cannot say.*_

_*Enjoy the weekend!*_


----------



## PaulM

bryan9 said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used the calculator found at the new website to evaluate a 2 zone roomette reservation costing $2000, which was about the lowest I could find over a 15 day period in January from DEN to ORL (a shortest path route I do every other January).
> 
> The result for a non-status member
> 
> Price = 2000
> 
> Points credited = 4000 (note this is the same as the old regime)
> 
> Points required for future travel = 69,000
> 
> Points required for future travel under the old regime = 20000
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I just got lucky, but for 1/11/2016, I got a $910 fare for a one-way roomette trip DEN-ORL. This will cost 31,395 points under AGR 2.0 according to the calculator. Did you price a round-trip by any chance? If so, the points required today would be 40,000, not 20,000.
Click to expand...

You are correct. Either I made a big mistake or the price dropped drastically in one day. I also multiplied the low bucket rail fair by two for two people; but under the new scheme that may not be appropriate.


----------



## PaulM

AlamoWye said:


> I was also wondering about sleeper redemptions under the new system. It use to be (still is?) that when booking a sleeper you got low-bucket fare for the fare portion. Is this going away also when booking sleepers using AGR?


I speculated as to the answer in am earlier post. But it does bring up another question. If you book a room for two in the usual way, can the second person apply their points, oops credit, to the second rail fare? I suspect that would require a change in the reservation system since it doesn't currently bring up exchange vouchers from more than one person. So I suspect the answer is no.


----------



## PaulM

jimhudson said:


> My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!


Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the *discounted* fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.


----------



## Bex

PaulM said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the *discounted* fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.
Click to expand...

Anthony says over on FlyerTalk:

"'Adult' and 'Child' pricing will apply to redemption travel, but not other discount types such as AAA, Senior, etc."


----------



## me_little_me

I see a few gems in the sludge given that one would expect Amtrak to finally implement a penalty for changing/cancelling points trips and expect that costs in points would have gone up one way or the other.


For those overnight trips across a boundary, I can use a reasonable number of points e.g. Prince, WV to Chicago for as little as 13K points now vs 20K before
My age gets me senior discount so paying in points gets me some point discount.
I don't have to buy points to meet a specific criteria (e.g. needing 40K points to go 2 zones in a BR vs using the points I have with added cash either by using the upcoming point+cash program or paying for part of the way in cash.
I can break up a trip. In the past, you "paid" to the zone boundary in points so making a 2 day stopover halfway there was "expensive", doubling the cost in points. Now I can stop along the way and continue my journey using not many more points than if I didn't stop.
Not as good overall as the old deal but at least it mitigates the cost.


----------



## Bob Dylan

PaulM said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the *discounted* fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.
Click to expand...

Paul: Maybe I misunderstood Anthony's post on Flyer Talk about this?

He said that the only Fares that would be used in calculating Redemption Awards would be Adult and 50% off Children Fares.

I'm just a poor retired country boy, so all this high falutin'math and computing goes way beyond the one room school house Math I was taught back in Ancient Times!

Hopefully these kind of questions will be fully explained as they arise !( and there will be plenty of them from now till after roll out)

I still think hiring you as a consultant would be a great idea! You could ride your bike to work @ 60 Mass like Ryan does to the Navy Yard! LOL


----------



## Bob Dylan

Excellent post on Flyer Talk/AGR Forum by a Pa. Resident: His slogan is better than mine " Less is More for More!")

AGR2016: "Easier for Us/Costlier for You/Unless You Live Where We Do!"

Perfect!!


----------



## PaulM

jimhudson said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My other bone to pick is eliminating the use of Senior/ AAA/Student/Military etc Discount Fares when calculating a Redemption of points now that the redemptions will be Fare based!
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa! I agree with most of your post, but I'm not sure about this. You earn credit based on the amount spent, which is reduced by the senior discount. Again, if my theory is correct, when you go to redeem the credits, you book the *discounted* fare as usual and then apply the (discounted) credit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Paul: Maybe I misunderstood Anthony's post on Flyer Talk about this?
> 
> He said that the only Fares that would be used in calculating Redemption Awards would be Adult and 50% off Children Fares.
Click to expand...

There is another interpretation that doesn't make sense, but at least doesn't destroy my theory that the reservation system need not change. That is when what used to be points get posted after Amtrak travel, the new AGR system does not use the discount to calculate the credit for later redemption awards.

I say this doesn't make sense because if the old reservation system is used when booking a redemption, it will calculate the price based on the discount and then apply the (un-dicounted) credit. So seniors would be getting an extra bonus.

On the other hand, your interpretation requires that the reservation system somehow either ask you before hand whether you will be applying AGR credits in order not to apply the discount, or when you later apply AGR credit during the payment phase, it recalculates the price minus the discount. Then there is the question of partial redemptions. Does it prorate the discount? Any scenario requires a Rube Goldberg recoding the reservation system.

Not only that, to make AGR redemptions on-line bookable and mix cash and redemptions, you would need to add a payment type. To the best of my knowledge, there are only two: credit card and eVouchers. Thus my conclusion that eVouchers should be used to hold AGR credit.


----------



## bryan9

PaulM said:


> They say make it short and sweet. My spiel must have been two long to wade through. <snip>
> 
> If my theory is correct, you will no longer collect "points", just as you never collected "miles". Rather you collect a few cents per dollar spent which get credited to future travel.


Paul, apologies, I did indeed grasp your very good point; just wanted to focus on the lower fare that I found. -- Bryan


----------



## Bob Dylan

More " The Devil's in the Details" Questions re the New and Improved AGR2.0:

What happens when on an AGR Award trip a connection is missed for whatever reason, say in CHI, ( common occurrence!)and AGR members have to be re-booked? For example #6 EMY-CHI/##30 CHI-WAS. You are rebooked on #48 to NYP, then a NECR to WAS.

#48 is consistently more Expensive than #30 for Sleepers( as is #50) and with the addition of the NECR ( in Biz Class?) Will the Member have to Pay with more Points since such connections will require mostly Higher Bucket Fares on such short notice?

And what happens if a member is Involuntarily downgraded to Coach on a SOLD OUT Train? Will you receive a Voucher as is current practice, or a rebate of Points into your AGR Account?

I'm from Missouri on this, Shoe Me!! W

Blurbs that have come out so far are Boilerplate, Marketing Weasel words that surely wasn't written by a human being ! Putting Lipstick on a pig doesn't change that it's still a pig!

"AGR2016: Easier for Us/Costlier for You/Unless You Live Where We Do!"


----------



## bryan9

What really worries me is that changes will be made to the AGR Mastercard that significantly decrease the points earned simply by using the card. We rarely earn points by paying for our Amtrak travel -- and when we do, the number of points we earn is miniscule. What's made it possible for us to travel on Amtrak is the AGR Mastercard. Simply by charging everything to the card, we've been able to take a major LD trip every other year, and sometimes twice a year. So far as I know, nothing has been announced concerning the "new" AGR Mastercard and the miles-earning terms to be offered, but I expect they will change... and not for the better.


----------



## publife

On mobile; poorly formatted quote from PaulM: "If my theory is correct, you will no longer collect "points", just as you never collected "miles". Rather you collect a few cents per dollar spent which get credited to future travel."

Unfortunately, there are a few reasons it doesn't appear that's going to be the case, and they all reduce the value of points further than your theory would predict. The MAX value points will be worth under the new system will be ~2.9c each, but Amtrak wouldn't have any interest in giving us voucher credit instead, because there are several ways they'll be giving us less per point than that.

The one where Amtrak is most forthcoming about the reduced value is Acela redemptions, where the point ratio is $1:40, for a value of 2.5c each.

The next one involves the minimum redemption cost of 800 points. Technically we don't know if the 800 point minimum is per booking or per leg, but the estimator makes it look like it's going to be per leg =/ That means that if I were to try to redeem points for the $12 Orlando to Tampa route I like, I would only get 1.5c per point in value.

Another is when you would normally be able to apply a discount, like the 10% AAA or the 15% Vet Advantage or Senior rate. On a $100 base fare, we'll have the option of using a discount to pay $85 or $90 cash or 3450 points - resulting in ~2.5c or 2.6c per point.

The last one is the fact that apparently Saver fares won't be eligible for redemptions - only Value or higher. For the $34 Saver fare from Orlando to Miami, you'll have to redeem enough points for the $43 Value fare - the estimator says that will be 1484 points, resulting in ~2.3c per point in value.

...clearly I'm a great big dork, but I used to get sooo much more value out of points than I'll get in the future, and I'm awfully bummed that in must cases it turns out that I'll get even less than the 2.9c the new program purports to offer.


----------



## SteveSFL

Being one of us that likes to make the longest trip possible within the zone system (almost every 2-zone trip I've taken has been 4 nights on the train), I am mostly disappointed in the new program.

But this will open the possibility to new connections that we didn't have before, either because they were strictly prohibited or because trying to convince the AGR rep that they were permitted was too difficult.

Now I'll be able to go eastbound from Chicago on the LSL, spend a night in NYC and then go south to Tampa on the Star (if it gets a diner back) or the Meteor. Looks like it will be about 24K points, which isn't too unreasonable since it would have required 35K before.

And I never wanted to do a 1 zone trip before, because adding a second zone for 5K points was too good to pass up. Consequently, I traveled several times between DEN and CHI on the second half of Zephyr trips when there really isn't much to see but corn and wheat. Now I can just fly home from DEN, which is usually fairly reasonable.

I just hope that Chase allows us to continue to transfer points or at least gives us some warning before cutting it off. Even at 2.89 cents per point, AGR will probably still be a better deal than transferring to Southwest and definitely better than transferring to the evil United Airlines.


----------



## jebr

Passengers are not forced to pay more when rebooked due to a misconnect when paying with cash. There is no reason to believe that redemptions would be otherwise. I am 99.999% sure that a misconnect would be rebooked without an additional points cost.


----------



## jtoddander

I think I can live with the changes...perhaps it might require a little longer lead time to find best prices or forgoing holiday periods.

Still I have a couple questions:

1.). Will the price used to calculate required points be based on fare AFTER any discounts like the senior discount?

2). Since redemption is based on price, any chance it will be possible to purchase rail pass?

3). Can I assume that the cost of a roomette or bedroom includes multiple passengers?


----------



## BCL

jtoddander said:


> I think I can live with the changes...perhaps it might require a little longer lead time to find best prices or forgoing holiday periods.
> 
> Still I have a couple questions:
> 
> 1.). Will the price used to calculate required points be based on fare AFTER any discounts like the senior discount?
> 
> 2). Since redemption is based on price, any chance it will be possible to purchase rail pass?
> 
> 3). Can I assume that the cost of a roomette or bedroom includes multiple passengers?


It's buried earlier, but to reiterate....

1) Only child fare results in a reduced point requirement. No senior point discount an application of other discounts, like AAA.

2) nothing mentioned about a rail pass. I suspect no. However, multiride tickets be available with points.

3) The cost of points will be proportional to the retail price. More passengers in sleepers will cost more points.


----------



## willem

jebr said:


> Passengers are not forced to pay more when rebooked due to a misconnect when paying with cash. There is no reason to believe that redemptions would be otherwise. I am 99.999% sure that a misconnect would be rebooked without an additional points cost.


While I expect you are correct, there is evidence to the contrary. If I rebook a cash reservation to take advantage of a lower price, I can get the full value of the change in price in the form of a voucher. On a points reservation, I only get 90% of the price reduction, even though points are essentially a voucher under the new system.


----------



## JoeBas

willem said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Passengers are not forced to pay more when rebooked due to a misconnect when paying with cash. There is no reason to believe that redemptions would be otherwise. I am 99.999% sure that a misconnect would be rebooked without an additional points cost.
> 
> 
> 
> While I expect you are correct, there is evidence to the contrary. If I rebook a cash reservation to take advantage of a lower price, I can get the full value of the change in price in the form of a voucher. On a points reservation, I only get 90% of the price reduction, even though points are essentially a voucher under the new system.
Click to expand...

Oh don't worry, I'm sure the same changes coming for cash reservations and they just haven't told us yet.


----------



## MadManMoon

Well, that's it for me and my cross-country adventures. I knew it was too good to last forever.

My previous trip was WAS-SEA via the Cardinal, Southwest Chief, and Coast Starlight. Used to be 35,000 points. Departing July 22, 2016, it's 72,761 points (based on $2,109 rail fare).

Looks like I'll book 2 or 3 more adventures, zero out my points, cancel my AGR and Sapphire Preferred cards, and look elsewhere for my travel needs.

I can't say I'm surprised that the devaluation is that extreme, but I am certainly disappointed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Keeping the Sapphire Preferred Card might be a good idea for future travel!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

tonys96 said:


> Manny T said:
> 
> 
> 
> My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. You are a winner in this randomness. CHI, NYP, STP, WAS, all winners. Here in Texas, we lose a great deal. Going to burn my 44k points before the change and likely say goodbye to LD Amtrak travel. Sadly.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt that here in TX the news is pretty negative. Probably the same in most of the country. Although saying that in public may annoy the folks from CHI and the NEC.



OlympianHiawatha said:


> I still have yet to exercise my Buy Points option this year and now wonder under the new system if it is worth buying Points....


Since AGR 2.0 values points below the price they sell them there is no reason whatsoever to buy points anymore.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

BCL said:


> I'm wondering what will happen to point buying. I was always kind of amused that people would really want to buy points over several years just to save up for sleeper redemptions that would actually cost less in terms of dollars spent. It just seemed kind of odd to me. Now that they'll have a combination of points and dollars, it might make less sense to buy points ahead of time.


I haven't read all the way through this thread, but is there an answer as to when point buying will end? I'm guessing that point buying will be cut off no later than January 24, 2016, but will it be earlier than that? Point buying is normally restricted by calendar year, so I'm sure we can still buy points in 2015, but I'm curious as to whether we'll be allowed to buy a new set of points from January 1-24.

And to BCL's issue... it would be silly to buy points if they end up costing more than just buying a ticket, but there are PLENTY of routes where buying & using points is very worthwhile. For example, a 2-zone trip in a roomette costs only 20,000 points. Since it costs $275 for 10,000 points (assuming they're not offering a bonus), getting 20,000 points costs only $550. A cross-country 2-zone trip in a roomette for 2 people will almost always cost substantially more than $550. If I can get another 10,000 points in before the old program goes away, & book a trip before the old program expires, it might make a big difference.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

jimhudson said:


> Since redemptions will be Fare Based, will discounted fares ( Senior, AAA etc) be the basis for the number of required points, or will they be a flat current Bucket rate when booked for everyone?
> 
> Booking up to 11 months in advance right now is usually High Bucket, so the number of points will be the max.Then, if the Fare goes down, as they do, you will lose points to make modifications due to the new penalty policy!


Maybe this thread isn't the best place to ask this question, but if this statement is true then I really don't understand the bucket system. I thought fares always started in the lowest bucket and worked their way up as seats / rooms sold out, so it was always beneficial to book as early as you can. Is that not the case?


----------



## chakk

Your assumption is false. Fares do not always start in lowest bucket; but rather may start for some dates in higher buckets if the yield management algorithm computes that travel on that date will be in high demand. In other words, "charge what the market will bear"


----------



## SteveSFL

DP, the cost to buy points went up significantly a few months ago. It's now about $375 for 10,000 points (with no bonus). But you can now purchase up to 15,000 points per year (so if you already bought 10K earlier in 2015, you can buy 5K more before the end of the year).

The bucket doesn't always start low and go up. The sometimes go down as the date gets closer, but may continue to go up if there is a high demand.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

D.P. Roberts said:


> I haven't read all the way through this thread, but is there an answer as to when point buying will end?


Why would point buying end? At the new rates Amtrak will always make more selling points than they'd make selling tickets directly. If I were in charge of AGR I'd let the suckers who struggle to evaluate value propositions buy points until the end of time.


----------



## Carolina Special

So when the points + cash deal becomes active, will the cash portion be at the redemption rate for points of $0.0289 or at the current points buying rate of $.0375? The latter would not be very attractive for the buyer.


----------



## George K

Manny T said:


> My perspective from Chicago-land is totally different. I'm gonna keep my points, continue earning points as normal this year, and when the new program kicks in travel in roomettes to NYP, WAS, Memphis & NOLA for fewer points than currently required.


Interesting. A bedroom on #58 on 11/1 is about 800 points cheaper. PDX is 15K points cheaper. But if I try on 4/22/16 (a Friday), it's 3K points more. Bucket...

I'll have to keep checking the prices for my trip to PDX next year. It might be worth the hassle to save some points if the ticket goes to low bucket.


----------



## bryan9

MadManMoon said:


> My previous trip was WAS-SEA via the Cardinal, Southwest Chief, and Coast Starlight. Used to be 35,000 points. Departing July 22, 2016, it's 72,761 points (based on $2,109 rail fare).



This is a pretty good example of a high-mileage, high-bucket itinerary that is penalized by the new redemption structure. But you can still make the trip via the Capitol Limited, and Zephyr/Coast Starlight or Empire Builder for a lot less (as low as $1072 for the July, 2016 dates I examined) -- 37,000 points. Not as good as the previous deal, to be sure, but perhaps it's worth considering staying in the program -- especially if you love passenger train travel as much as you evidently do.


----------



## bryan9

chakk said:


> Fares do not always start in lowest bucket; but rather may start for some dates in higher buckets if the yield management algorithm computes that travel on that date will be in high demand. In other words, "charge what the market will bear"


It seems that some trains are always high bucket, like the Cardinal. Any others?


----------



## City of Miami

D.P. Roberts said:


> Maybe this thread isn't the best place to ask this question, but if this statement is true then I really don't understand the bucket system. I thought fares always started in the lowest bucket and worked their way up as seats / rooms sold out, so it was always beneficial to book as early as you can. Is that not the case?


Up until a 4 or 5 years ago this was the case. Then Amtrak started to modify their algorithm to reflect demand driven pricing. On some trains they know pretty well they are going so sell all or nearly all the seats so why should they give them away cheaper to early buyers? True, they would get to hold the money for awhile but at today's interest rate that is negligible. The system has evolved to be very flexible: the prices go up and down as expectations of final sales change. It still is not as dramatic as many airlines though where prices can go up and down on an hourly basis.

I think the expected change in AGR redemption supports this business model. Specifically it encourages redeemers to shift to trains that are not expected to sell out to revenue producing buyers. It uses price to accomplish this.

It all makes sense from a business point of view. After all, Amtrak was set up as a business by Congress and in recent years at least select Congresspersons have harangued Amtrak to act more like it was intended. Amtrak has increasing ridership and limited, perhaps declining, inventory to produce revenue so it is compelled to maximize return on each unit of sale. No more free lunch.

Perhaps no more lunch at all. The experiments Amtrak is making with food and beverage service fits into the same model. Amtrak is trying to find out what their customers actually want from a very expensive service where everyone actually loses: Amtrak loses money on $8 hotdogs and some customers complain bitterly about change. We are not in the 20th century anymore with elegant full service dining options. No one wants to pay for that on Amtrak. The main cost generator seems to be personnel the same as for all f/b services; even McDonalds is shedding personnel and going for more robotics as the minimum wage rises and labor costs rise dramatically for them. They are not going to stand by twiddling their thumbs!


----------



## JoeBas

"We are not in the 20th century anymore"

I'm so glad were catching up in the race to the bottom...


----------



## City of Miami

JoeBas said:


> I'm so glad were catching up in the race to the bottom...


You can still have the top, first class service, if you want it.....but you have to PAY FOR IT. Some folks in present day America don't seem to want to pay for much of anything of value. Either give it to me or no dice.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

City of Miami,

I can't, and won't, argue with what your saying, but I don't have to like it. As JoeBas says: "Welcome to the race to the bottom." Or, another way to put it: Welcome to the global economy where the only thing that matters is how cheaply things can be made or done. :wacko:

For me, Amtrak is unfortunately becoming less and less of a way I want to travel. Take The Canadian sometime and then hop on an Amtrak LD, the differences are becoming more and more jarring. Time to ride other forms of rail transportation, or fly or even drive. I'm going to make my opinion known with my wallet.


----------



## PaulM

publife said:


> The MAX value points will be worth under the new system will be ~2.9c each, but Amtrak wouldn't have any interest in giving us voucher credit instead, because there are several ways they'll be giving us less per point than that.


I came up with 2.9 cents per $ spent for the credit card because, at least currently, you earn one point per $. But apparently you will still earn 2 points per $ for Antrak travel, so I came up with 5.79. Granted, I didn't read all the details, so they could nibble at the 5.79. But 2.9 wouldn't be the max.

Regarding the voucher credit, that is just my theory about the mechanism for applying previously earned AGR credits when you make a reservation. It has nothing to do with how much credit is granted when you travel.


----------



## jtoddander

The revised program injects a little bit more rationality into AGR. A certain number of travelers seek to construct the longest possible itinerary...days and miles...for the fewest possible number of points. This group will now have to pay for it or plan a more rational and direct itinerary.


----------



## BCL

Carolina Special said:


> So when the points + cash deal becomes active, will the cash portion be at the redemption rate for points of $0.0289 or at the current points buying rate of $.0375? The latter would not be very attractive for the buyer.


I've found that many points+cash programs typically have the cash portions 1:1 to the retail cost. However, most point buying systems seem to be only targeted towards people who are barely short. AGR's point buying system seems kind of unusual to me - almost defeating the purpose of the program, which is to get people to pay for cash trips.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

City of Miami said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so glad were catching up in the race to the bottom...
> 
> 
> 
> You can still have the top, first class service, if you want it.....but you have to PAY FOR IT. Some folks in present day America don't seem to want to pay for much of anything of value. Either give it to me or no dice.
Click to expand...

 Where is this fancy first class train you're rambling about? I've ridden a lot of Amtrak trains, stayed in nearly every accommodation available except the handicapped rooms, and never seen anything that I'd call first class.



jtoddander said:


> The revised program injects a little bit more rationality into AGR. A certain number of travelers seek to construct the longest possible itinerary...days and miles...for the fewest possible number of points. This group will now have to pay for it or plan a more rational and direct itinerary.


Too bad the revised program does nothing to rationalize the skeleton network that created these irrational routings in the first place. I also like how in your view buying points with money isn't the same as "paying for it." Amtrak is apparently banking on reductions in redemptions being replaced by people who will happily pay thousands of dollars for a dumpy fiberglass cubbyhole covered in soiled carpet. It's possible that may be the case, but it seems equally possible to me that many of the compartments that previously went out as redemptions will either go out empty or will need to be sold at a discount compared to today's prices. Maybe we should wait for the eggs to hatch before we start counting chickens.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

chakk said:


> Your assumption is false. Fares do not always start in lowest bucket; but rather may start for some dates in higher buckets if the yield management algorithm computes that travel on that date will be in high demand. In other words, "charge what the market will bear"


 I wondered about that - I did a forum search for explanations of the bucket system, but the information I found was from several years ago.



SteveSTX said:


> DP, the cost to buy points went up significantly a few months ago. It's now about $375 for 10,000 points (with no bonus). But you can now purchase up to 15,000 points per year (so if you already bought 10K earlier in 2015, you can buy 5K more before the end of the year).
> 
> The bucket doesn't always start low and go up. The sometimes go down as the date gets closer, but may continue to go up if there is a high demand.


Wow, I wish I would have found out about that increase before it happened. I swear Amtrak didn't notify me, which is strange considering I follow them on Facebook and Twitter and get emails from them regularly.


----------



## dlagrua

Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?

Lets take a look at a rediculous fare.

A round trip ticket for a bedroom from CHI to DEN on the California Zephryr is $2500. A round trip bedroom fare from PHL to CHI can be $1750. Over $4000 for a trip from PHL to DEN?????? Is this the Orient Express????? You'd have to be out of your mind to pay those fares and I'll pass. In the past we would do LD trips on points, with one segment using cash, and points. A good portion of those were also purchased. It was a win-win for both Amtrak and the rail passenger. Amtrak gave away nothing for free, the sleepers were full and the revenue was high. Our tickets were always paid for with merchant purchased points and cash.

Now they want to try and suck the blood out of you. I predict that this program is going to fail miserably.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?
> 
> Lets take a look at a rediculous fare.
> 
> A round trip ticket for a bedroom from CHI to DEN on the California Zephryr is $2500. A round trip bedroom fare from PHL to CHI can be $1750. *Over $4000 for a trip from PHL to DEN??*???? Is this the Orient Express????? You'd have to be out of your mind to pay those fares and I'll pass. In the past we would do LD trips on points, with one segment using cash, and points. A good portion of those were also purchased. It was a win-win for both Amtrak and the rail passenger. Amtrak gave away nothing for free, the sleepers were full and the revenue was high. Our tickets were always paid for with merchant purchased points and cash.
> 
> Now they want to try and suck the blood out of you. I predict that this program is going to fail miserably.


Guess it all depends on when you want to travel. I just tried a round trip in April and it came to under $3000.


----------



## Bex

I just got back from the EB and in the words of every announcement "this train is completely full." (There was a 100 person waiting list for every breakfast and lunch, for example). There was an entire sleeper car full of a tour group going to Glacier. I presume they all paid, since it was a tour. As one does, I chatted with lots of different people, some at meals, some elsewhere. I was the only one who traveled on points. I know this is one train in high season and it's anecdotal, but obviously some folks are actually paying.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?
> 
> Lets take a look at a rediculous fare.
> 
> A round trip ticket for a bedroom from CHI to DEN on the California Zephryr is $2500. A round trip bedroom fare from PHL to CHI can be $1750. *Over $4000 for a trip from PHL to DEN??*???? Is this the Orient Express????? You'd have to be out of your mind to pay those fares and I'll pass. In the past we would do LD trips on points, with one segment using cash, and points. A good portion of those were also purchased. It was a win-win for both Amtrak and the rail passenger. Amtrak gave away nothing for free, the sleepers were full and the revenue was high. Our tickets were always paid for with merchant purchased points and cash.
> 
> Now they want to try and suck the blood out of you. I predict that this program is going to fail miserably.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess it all depends on when you want to travel. I just tried a round trip in April and it came to under $3000.
Click to expand...

But for the sort of people who are actually paying cash for this sort of trip, will it be worth it?

I just looked up PHL-DEN on Kayak and found round trip airfare in first class for about $1000. For a couple, let's say $2000 round trip. That same couple would then have $1000 to $2000 (depending on which Amtrak fare you're comparing it to) to spend on hotels and food over the same span. If you're spending first class money and want a first class experience, it's really hard to argue that the Amtrak experience even compares.

One of the things I've always liked about AGR is that it allowed us to basically travel first class for the price of a coach seat on an airplane. Sure, it took longer and wasn't really "first class", but the scenery is a lot better. To me, it was a very worthwhile tradeoff. I'm not sure if that tradeoff is going to continue to be worthwhile if Amtrak travel now costs two or three times as much as flying.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I agree that one would have to be really wealthy or nutscto pay thousands of dollars to ride a LD Train run by Amtrak!

The Orient Express,IP Pullman trips, PV trips, Rocky Mountaineer,the Canadian (in season) etc etc, Yeah!

Much as today's flying is kicked around ( and justifiably so) a First Class Air ticket or even Coach would be the prudent and affordable way to travel, its just a few hours, not the 40-60 Hours required on a LD Train for twice to three times as much!

Honestly, I wouldn't pay those outrageous Amtrak fares even if I was as Rich ( allegedly) as Trump the Entertainer!


----------



## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?


What is the breakdown between number of paid passengers and number of AGR passengers in sleeping cars?


----------



## Anderson

Ryan said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?
> 
> 
> 
> What is the breakdown between number of paid passengers and number of AGR passengers in sleeping cars?
Click to expand...

I'd sure love to see numbers on this as well.

I was talking with Charlie and realized that, with the exception of one particularly "bad" routing (CHI-SAS-LAX-SEA), most of the "abusive" trips which have survived to the present are Florida-oriented and come down to the fact that there's no functional East-West gateway but Chicago. When AGR was started, the Sunset East (and Broadway/Three Rivers) did a lot to fill out the system and the Palmetto still went to Miami.


----------



## SteveSFL

There have been several people who have argued that those of us that take the long way around on zone redemptions are somehow cheating the system and we deserved to be brought into line by the new program.

Don't forget that Amtrak advertises their long distance service as a way to see America and enjoy the ride and the scenery. If Amtrak thought their service was purely a method of getting from one place to another, their reservation system would only offer the shortest route between two points.

If I want to travel between Chicago and Seattle and I've already been on the Empire Builder (or I'm concerned that it will be disrupted by fire, flooding, or freight traffic), I should have the option of taking the Zephyr or Chief without being unduly penalized.

Sure, you could argue that Amtrak has to provide me with more service (meals, etc) over the longer trip so it should cost more points, but that's not how the airlines do it. If I want a "saver" redemption on American Airlines, it is almost never on a non-stop flight. I've see times when I tried to book Seattle-Houston and AA offered me Seattle-Phoenix-Charlotte-Houston as the only "low-bucket" award redemption.


----------



## Rail Freak

SteveSTX said:


> There have been several people who have argued that those of us that take the long way around on zone redemptions are somehow cheating the system and we deserved to be brought into line by the new program.
> 
> Don't forget that Amtrak advertises their long distance service as a way to see America and enjoy the ride and the scenery. If Amtrak thought their service was purely a method of getting from one place to another, their reservation system would only offer the shortest route between two points.


Completely agree with your point!!!

I've seen the word "ABUSE" several times.

Hey, I started traveling with Amtrak because what they offered fit with my goal, seeing the country! I'm not on Amtrak to get me from point "A" to point "B"!

I've appreciated the opportunity & truly regret the changes.

I,m gonna miss it!!!


----------



## JoeBas

City of Miami said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm so glad were catching up in the race to the bottom...
> 
> 
> 
> You can still have the top, first class service, if you want it.....but you have to PAY FOR IT. Some folks in present day America don't seem to want to pay for much of anything of value. Either give it to me or no dice.
Click to expand...

In other words I will take more, give less, and if you don't like it you can just take your private jet.

Oh, you don't have one if those? How sad...


----------



## JoeBas

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree with Devils advocate. Much of the dingy, broken accomodations with the dirty carpets are in fact booked by travelers that use AGR point redemptions. Eliminate these passengers and the sleepers will have plenty of space available for Amtrak to attempt to sell but will they?
> 
> Lets take a look at a rediculous fare.
> 
> A round trip ticket for a bedroom from CHI to DEN on the California Zephryr is $2500. A round trip bedroom fare from PHL to CHI can be $1750. *Over $4000 for a trip from PHL to DEN??*???? Is this the Orient Express????? You'd have to be out of your mind to pay those fares and I'll pass. In the past we would do LD trips on points, with one segment using cash, and points. A good portion of those were also purchased. It was a win-win for both Amtrak and the rail passenger. Amtrak gave away nothing for free, the sleepers were full and the revenue was high. Our tickets were always paid for with merchant purchased points and cash.
> 
> Now they want to try and suck the blood out of you. I predict that this program is going to fail miserably.
> 
> 
> 
> Guess it all depends on when you want to travel. I just tried a round trip in April and it came to under $3000.
Click to expand...

Travel midweek off peak for only 3 grand??? WHAT A DEAL!

Netjets starts to look like a viable option...


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Yep, and the word 'ABUSE' is very value laden in the context they are using it, as if to somehow be morally superior. :blink:

Next thing you know, and it would follow their logic, they will claim that buying points when a bonus is offered, or registering and riding when 'Double Days' (Remember TRIPLE days? ) are offered, is 'gaming' the system. hboy:


----------



## SteveSFL

Anthony has confirmed that "Saver" fares are not eligible for points redemption under the new program. If my observations are correct, this seems to affect only coach travel.

When I make test reservations for sleeper travel, Arrow seems to charge the accommodation charge plus the Value fare, even if Saver fare is available.

Is this correct?


----------



## JoeBas

Look, here's my situation:

Extended family lives in NJ, I'm in TX.

Our Amtrak use consists largely of either my immediate family making an annual visit to the extended family (with train time to prep and decompress), or my parents traveling back & forth snow birding (they winter down here for health reasons).

I've also made one side pleasure trip (football weekend) when TSA was especially egregious.

No AGR MasterCard, only other points from flowers and hotel stays - real "gamer" here, look out.

My 20k redemption for ONE one-way roomette (we need two), just to help out with cost (already was 80k for a RT), just went to 38k for next summer - for those keeping score at home, that's almost double.

Meanwhile, Frontier has started flying nonstop for $79-$129.

So I can stay, and get even less for more, or recalculate. Guess my 6yo will have to learn to not like trains so much.


----------



## George K

Ryan said:


> What is the breakdown between number of paid passengers and number of AGR passengers in sleeping cars?


Yes, indeed.

The other thing that I was thinking is that it's not that AGR passengers ride "for free." Someone's paying the freight, although it might be a third party like the credit card company, the vendor that you buy from via the AGR portal, etc. So, though the passenger is not paying, someone is: Chase, Walmart, Overstock...etc.

There's an outfit call eBates. Basically, shop through their portal, and you get a significant percentage of your purchase back as a rebate (up to 15%, iirc). How do they do it? They charge the retailers TWICE that amount for going thru the portal. They keep half, and the other half goes to the consumer.

Somehow, I find it hard, in my deepest heart of hearts, to feel pity for Walmart for helping subsidize my trips.


----------



## JoeBas

JoeBas said:


> Look, here's my situation:
> 
> Extended family lives in NJ, I'm in TX.
> 
> Our Amtrak use consists largely of either my immediate family making an annual visit to the extended family (with train time to prep and decompress), or my parents traveling back & forth snow birding (they winter down here for health reasons).
> 
> I've also made one side pleasure trip (football weekend) when TSA was especially egregious.
> 
> No AGR MasterCard, only other points from flowers and hotel stays - real "gamer" here, look out.
> 
> My 20k redemption for ONE one-way roomette (we need two), just to help out with cost (already was 80k for a RT), just went to 38k for next summer - for those keeping score at home, that's almost double.
> 
> Meanwhile, Frontier has started flying nonstop for $79-$129.
> 
> So I can stay, and get even less for more, or recalculate. Guess my 6yo will have to learn to not like trains so much.


Not to mention that this last trip, my grand mom passed away unexpectedly the day we were scheduled to leave, and we had to delay our trip by a week. So in this new world of "trips cost something different depending on what day it is and what we have for breakfast", what now? Do I have to pay the points difference between the fare I had booked and the new fare? Do I have to pay a cancellation penalty of 20% to change it? If I don't have enough points to do the trip now am I just stuck? This is just bad bad bad all around.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.


----------



## dart330

D.P. Roberts said:


> One of the things I've always liked about AGR is that it allowed us to basically travel first class for the price of a coach seat on an airplane. Sure, it took longer and wasn't really "first class", but the scenery is a lot better. To me, it was a very worthwhile tradeoff. I'm not sure if that tradeoff is going to continue to be worthwhile if Amtrak travel now costs two or three times as much as flying.


This is exactly how I feel. I was willing to spend the time on a train when I could get a roomette to anywhere in the country for 20k points and not have to worry about paying for meals. Now those trips are looking like they will be much higher. We will burn the remianing points we have on one last "First Class" trip and then stick to day trips from now on.

Time to sign up for the SW credit card I guess. My wife and I enrolled in Global Entry so we don't have to go through the scanners at the airport anymore.


----------



## Rail Freak

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.


No doubt!!!


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Anthony's timing sure was good.


----------



## Rail Freak

The Davy Crockett said:


> Anthony's timing sure was good.


----------



## Bob Dylan

AGR2.0 A Mid-Summer's Night Fantasy!


----------



## Manny T

I wonder how much of the country one gets to see when going back and forth on an $11 points run to earn 250 AGR points!


----------



## SarahZ

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.


Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.


----------



## BCL

The Davy Crockett said:


> Yep, and the word 'ABUSE' is very value laden in the context they are using it, as if to somehow be morally superior. :blink:
> 
> Next thing you know, and it would follow their logic, they will claim that buying points when a bonus is offered, or registering and riding when 'Double Days' (Remember TRIPLE days? ) are offered, is 'gaming' the system. hboy:


You used two words. I agree that "abuse" is kind of an extreme way to describe either trying to maximize points. Now "game" is a different matter and a couple of thesaurus synonyms for the way it's used in this context are "tactic" and "racket".

I fully admit to taking full advantage of the 100-point minimum (with up to 4 daily), riding heavily during Double Days, buying big tickets during Fast Track to Status (and the rules even said that multi-rides didn't count), splitting up trips, and using promotional discounts. I'm pretty sure this kind of use was known to Amtrak employees monitoring AGR and I'm frankly not surprised it was modified. I only had a few points runs, and they were primarily when I was trying to make status.

Frankly, the way AGR was set up wasn't particularly rational, and we all know it. The minimum earning points were a great equalizer for those of us who could take Amtrak for relatively short commutes, but they were also creating a situation where people were building up points with minimal spending. I haven't really accounted for how much more I spent chasing points when I could have just bought multi-ride tickets for my commute, but it was probably marginal given how I kept on looking for discounts. A few times I took my kid out on a trip to San Francisco when it would have frankly been cheaper to take BART.

However, I do get that the spin from AGR ("better engineered to fit your life") is a bit much. For myself, it benefits me only as far as I can generate points (commuter on Capitol Corridor) before the switch and then use the new redemption rules with these points after the switch. However, I can't really see myself spending $2500 a year minimum just to make Select. Heck - I'm pretty sure that I spend way less than that last year and made Select Plus. I'm just going to hit the soft landing to Select and my days of trying to get more points are over. I'll just take whatever I can. I'll still ride Amtrak, but it will be to commute.


----------



## JoeBas

"I wonder how much of the country one gets to see when going back and forth on an $11 points run to earn 250 AGR points!"

Objection your honor, strawman!

Never done that in my life and I'm getting hit for twice as many points for the same trip. Tell me again how this is not bending me over the railing and taking me wrong.

Wanna stop points runs? Easily done - cap on how many you can do within a given time frame. Without getting the entire program!


----------



## JoeBas

"AGR2.0. More for us! Less for You! If you don't like it, Tough!"

At least the 1% who can put there Acela trips on their expense account are making out better...


----------



## JoeBas

"Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners."

Objection your honor - false comparison! The flowers were a minor annoyance, this is a complete overhaul and change to the value proposition of travel.


----------



## BCL

JoeBas said:


> Wanna stop points runs? Easily done - cap on how many you can do within a given time frame. Without getting the entire program!


I was thinking maybe restrict minimum points to two per day. Perhaps reduce minimum points to 50?

I mean there were some notorious events that we recognize were abusing the system, like the guy who bought 50 tickets and had a conductor lift all of them to make Select in 10 day. However, they didn't get drastic. They just limited it to no multiple segments on the same train on the same day and then four minimum segments per day.


----------



## JoeBas

"I was thinking maybe restrict minimum points to two per day. Perhaps reduce minimum points to 50?"

Exactly: if this is being done because of points runs, it's using a bazooka to kill a fruit fly.


----------



## Rail Freak

SarahZ said:


> Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.


REALLY??? I'll bet ya a R/T Ticket to anywhere on that!!!!


----------



## SarahZ

JoeBas said:


> "Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners."
> 
> Objection your honor - false comparison! The flowers were a minor annoyance, this is a complete overhaul and change to the value proposition of travel.


I object to your overuse of, "Objection, your honor!" 

My point was that most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.


----------



## SarahZ

Rail Freak said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.
> 
> 
> 
> REALLY??? I'll bet ya a R/T Ticket to anywhere on that!!!!
Click to expand...

Calm down. It was a joke. It's like you've never seen my snarky posts before.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

BCL: If your 'game.' try looking up what I actually wrote instead of twisting my words. I wrote - "'gaming' the system.''

One synonym is "abusing the system." Another is "cheating the system."


----------



## BCL

The Davy Crockett said:


> BCL: If your 'game.' try looking up what I actually wrote instead of twisting my words. I wrote - "'gaming' the system.''
> 
> One synonym is "abusing the system." Another is "cheating the system."


Your examples are definitions. A synonym is one word or phrase. If you want something longer than "racket", it's choosing "illegal or unethical means". However, I thought that was rather strong. I remember the big issue when the US Mint was selling dollar coins at cost including shipping to encourage circulation. Well some people bought them with their credit cards, got points, and then deposited the coins. You can imagine how long that lasted.

I think a better definition for gaming is "exploiting a loophole". I think it explains what we have here with why there's a change to AGR without applying a value judgement.


----------



## JoeBas

SarahZ said:


> I object to your overuse of, "Objection, your honor!"


OVERRULED!!!  


SarahZ said:


> My point was that most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.


This is a completely different thing. Getting one room "buy 3 get one free" every fourth trip vs every other is about $250 a year out of my pocket, annualized. And that's not even taking into account that I mainly used my points as a safety net for late planned (not sure of exact dates/schedule) or short notice trips (funerals, etc), which are of course higher bucket.


----------



## JayPea

I never considered points runs gaming the system. I'm just jealous I don't have that opportunity to make points runs!  . I wouldn't like the loss of the 100 point minimum either if I used it to garner a large amount of points. But for me it is inconsequential as I don't make that many trips on Amtrak. This year I will gain all of 300 points via travel; under the new system I would have gained 246 points. 54 points more or less makes no difference to me. And using AGR for taking long convoluted trips is also not gaming the system. I recall someone on this forum (rather sanctimoniously, I thought) said they would never take a loophole AGR trip because they might deprive someone who needed to be somewhere in a hurry a seat on the train. This was just before I took my Slidell Loophole trip. If their intent was to make me feel guilty, it didn't work. 

I'm not sure how much will change for me under the new system but I'm by no means anywhere near the point of giving up on Amtrak altogether yet. As for people leaving AU, there will always be new customers who join AGR after the January 24th who will be unaware of the "old" AGR benefits who will be joining AU.


----------



## TinCan782

SarahZ said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.
Click to expand...

I'll still be here!


----------



## SarahZ

Snark aside, I think that even though some people won't be traveling on Amtrak as often (or ever again), we'll still see them around for the other railfanning aspects, reading others' trip reports, the social threads, etc.


----------



## TinCan782

SarahZ said:


> Snark aside, I think that even though some people won't be traveling on Amtrak as often (or ever again), we'll still see them around for the other railfanning aspects, reading others' trip reports, the social threads, etc.


Exactly...less often and shorter trips!


----------



## BCL

JayPea said:


> I never considered points runs gaming the system. I'm just jealous I don't have that opportunity to make points runs!  . I wouldn't like the loss of the 100 point minimum either if I used it to garner a large amount of points. But for me it is inconsequential as I don't make that many trips on Amtrak. This year I will gain all of 300 points via travel; under the new system I would have gained 246 points. 54 points more or less makes no difference to me. And using AGR for taking long convoluted trips is also not gaming the system. I recall someone on this forum (rather sanctimoniously, I thought) said they would never take a loophole AGR trip because they might deprive someone who needed to be somewhere in a hurry a seat on the train. This was just before I took my Slidell Loophole trip. If their intent was to make me feel guilty, it didn't work.


However, I think we all recognize there are loopholes and that it was inevitable that they would eventually be eliminated. It's like all you can eat buffets, which tend to attract the biggest eaters. The 100 point minimum was a loophole that enabled members to earn cheap points. To get to the 10,000 points for Select Plus under the new system, it will cost $5000, and there's no loophole to get there any cheaper (save maybe a promotion). Under the previous system I figured it was possible to do so for less than $270 with the right promotional fare.

However, I'm wondering why they didn't do anything like what we were talking about earlier, such as maybe a max two defined minimum points earnings per day or reduce the minimum points to 50. That would still give an incentive for points runs and give us cheapskates a chance.


----------



## benale

Those $11 R/T fares from Harrisburg to Elizabethtown which netted 250 points and 450 during Double Days added up quickly over a two year period and enabled us to book two two zone awards in a roomette this past June using the longest way possible to experience the great scenery, get meals included and enjoy nice amenities like admission to the Metropolitan Lounges and ride in The Pacific Parlour Car on the Coast Starlight. That is why I've taken many "point runs" on that route,plus others that had comparable fares.

Obviously I don't see much of the country on a 20 minute ride,but I was "rewarded" with a two week vacation,half of it on the train using points. With the new AGR rules coming into effect, that scenario will be a thing of the past, but I'm glad I had the opportunity to do point runs, which i have been doing for ten years and using points for other trips over the years.

Now, what is wrong with that?


----------



## Manny T

What's wrong with that is 2-fold:

(1) It tends to lessen the financial viability of the whole system. Amtrak HQ knows in a general way what ridership and travel trends are, what said travel generates in terms of revenue, how many passengers will join AGR and will earn points, how much their award travel will "cost." These calculations go into setting fares, and the result is a financially viable system, including AGR awards. Now imagine that instead of traveling (per trends, estimates etc.), people just load up on points via cheap "points runs" and collect their expensive AGR awards. Net result--system is broken, estimates useless, revenue not covering expenses, awards eating up profits, and on and on. Net net, the result is AGR 2.0 which many are unhappy with.

(2) Seeing the point run abuses, Amtrak clamps down & eliminates the 100 point minimum. Hence I lose a nice fringe benefit of my CHI-MKE round trips (cost $48). And no, I'm not happy about that.


----------



## rrdude

SarahZ said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.
Click to expand...

Watch it Sarah, now you are hitting close to home!

Seriously, flowers, "alone" doesn't mean much, but taken in conjunction with everything else....

Told ya so!


----------



## JoeBas

"Now, what is wrong with that?"

Ummmmm....


----------



## SarahZ

rrdude said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Watch it Sarah, now you are hitting close to home!
> 
> Seriously, flowers, "alone" doesn't mean much, but taken in conjunction with everything else....
> 
> Told ya so!
Click to expand...

Nobody can take a joke, eh? Did you happen to read any of my other responses?


----------



## OEBB

Disclaimer: I'm an NEC rider based out of NYP, but I'm not feeling great about the new AGR so I'm going to share my perspective (if for no other reason than to vent).

I travel most extensively to to BOS. I travel occasionally to PHL and WAS. I get that the "city pairs" were wonky because you could do PVD-BWI and get less than 500 points while someone else traveling just from BOS-STM gets 500, but if the TQPs required for Select Plus and Select Executive stay the same its going to be much harder to earn stays. I qualified for S+ in June and should hit SE in October courtesy of 500 TQPs on my $113 low-bucket tickets to BOs. With the new system I won't come anywhere near spending $10,000 with Amtrak. Based on the current fare structure, I can really only see NYP-WAS travelers qualifying for SE. In fact, if my travel drops slightly next year I may not even qualify for S+. The Club Acela in BOS is about to get even quieter.

Now that it's harder to earn TQPs and points on the Acela (and no 100 point minimum) I wonder if they'll drop the cost of the Club Acela passes and first class upgrades?

I get that I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy from most on this board as a business traveler who has my Acela business fare paid for me, but please know that as an NEC-North customer I'm also feeling like I'm losing something with the "new and improved AGR."


----------



## BCL

Manny T said:


> (2) Seeing the point run abuses, Amtrak clamps down & eliminates the 100 point minimum. Hence I lose a nice fringe benefit of my CHI-MKE round trips (cost $48). And no, I'm not happy about that.


Well - I don't think there were really that many points runs compared to people who simply had short regular trips and were AGR members. However, the points run earners were probably the most likely to want to get the most out of their points. My EMY-GAC commute ride is $18 or less with a discount, and I'll gladly pay that periodically in place of getting a $106 10-ride. However, regardless of whether or not the minimum was eliminated to deal with deliberate points runs or just because they wanted to create a more "rational" system, that's the way it's going to be. Yeah - I had about 36,000 points at one time, and only part of it came from partner programs. And there's no way I even spent more than $5000 on Amtrak travel in that time frame. It was the short commute rides, split segments, and the occasional points run that got me to that point.

What's the joke about what people want? They want to spend the absolute least and get the absolute most. We all understand that. In fact a lot of the talk about these loopholes was a case study in that.

You know what? To the average person who hasn't heard of AGR and sees this for the first time, it actually makes sense. Most credit cards rewards are a point per penny spent (plus some bonuses for specific spending), and $10,000 in spending can typically get a $100 worth of merchandise or maybe somewhat discounted travel. However, for the new AGR $5000 in spending earns at least 10,000 points, and just those base points can be redeemed for about $290 worth of travel.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Unless something changes on the "new" AGR Card the only way to get 10,000 Points for $5,000 spending is for that spendiing to be on Amtrak.


----------



## BCL

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Unless something changes on the "new" AGR Card the only way to get 10,000 Points for $5,000 spending is for that spendiing to be on Amtrak.


But the average person looking at this for the first time probably isn't thinking of a rewards credit card in conjunction with AGR, but for what you get out of that Amtrak transaction in terms of Amtrak redemptions. Granted the vast majority of my Amtrak spending was with a credit card, so I wasn't just getting AGR points but other points. That's probably similar to most other purchases these days.


----------



## BCL

OEBB said:


> Disclaimer: I'm an NEC rider based out of NYP, but I'm not feeling great about the new AGR so I'm going to share my perspective (if for no other reason than to vent).
> 
> I travel most extensively to to BOS. I travel occasionally to PHL and WAS. I get that the "city pairs" were wonky because you could do PVD-BWI and get less than 500 points while someone else traveling just from BOS-STM gets 500, but if the TQPs required for Select Plus and Select Executive stay the same its going to be much harder to earn stays. I qualified for S+ in June and should hit SE in October courtesy of 500 TQPs on my $113 low-bucket tickets to BOs. With the new system I won't come anywhere near spending $10,000 with Amtrak. Based on the current fare structure, I can really only see NYP-WAS travelers qualifying for SE. In fact, if my travel drops slightly next year I may not even qualify for S+. The Club Acela in BOS is about to get even quieter.
> 
> Now that it's harder to earn TQPs and points on the Acela (and no 100 point minimum) I wonder if they'll drop the cost of the Club Acela passes and first class upgrades?
> 
> I get that I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy from most on this board as a business traveler who has my Acela business fare paid for me, but please know that as an NEC-North customer I'm also feeling like I'm losing something with the "new and improved AGR."


I paid for it all myself. However, I remember during the last Double Days I had (I think) 4800 double points and still had some days with 3 minimum point segments. So it was probably about 5300 TQPs, and I don't think I spent more than $500. I was getting a really good point bargain out of that in terms of point earning. Altogether I doubt that I spent more than $1800 on Amtrak last year even when I managed to make S+. If it was solely about travel, then none of what I did made any sense, as I could have gotten from point A to point B and back cheaper with 10-ride tickets.

And so far I haven't been able to use my club privileges much. I gave away my Select ClubAcela passes because I couldn't figure out how to use them, and I went out of my way to get to a UnitedClub location last month.


----------



## tonys96

me_little_me said:


> I see a few gems in the sludge given that one would expect Amtrak to finally implement a penalty for changing/cancelling points trips and expect that costs in points would have gone up one way or the other.
> 
> My age gets me senior discount so paying in points gets me some point discount.


Not according to post #409.


----------



## tonys96

JoeBas said:


> "Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners."
> 
> Objection your honor - false comparison! The flowers were a minor annoyance, this is a complete overhaul and change to the value proposition of travel.


DITTO!


----------



## BCL

I guess the strange thing about the 100-point minimum (outside of pure point runs) was that without it I wouldn't have taken so many individual and split trips (during my commute) in a quest to collect 100-point segments. A lot of those split trips were time wasters and if my wallet was the sole concern I would have just bought 10-ride tickets. Even when I could find a promotional discount, I was spending a good 15% more per one-way trip just chasing points and status. I suppose the exception was when I found a 50% promotional discount for a weekday. I read through the terms and there didn't seem to be anything except 3-day advance purchase and using specific stations.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Manny T said:


> I wonder how much of the country one gets to see when going back and forth on an $11 points run to earn 250 AGR points!


I have no idea. I've never once been on a points run myself. Has it ever occurred to you that the vast majority of the country doesn't have anything like this as an option?



SarahZ said:


> Most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.


Most of the posts I read were merely expressing their disapproval and concern for how average travelers would view the changes, but I guess that doesn't fit into your continuing narrative. Your repeated attempts to target and marginalize those who disagree with your position on amenities is getting old. Maybe you should just give it a rest rather than pretending you're _still_ just joking after going out of your way to beat this dead horse longer than anyone else on the entire forum.


----------



## SteveSFL

Too far with that one d.a.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

SarahZ said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Watch it Sarah, now you are hitting close to home!
> Seriously, flowers, "alone" doesn't mean much, but taken in conjunction with everything else....
> 
> Told ya so!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nobody can take a joke, eh? Did you happen to read any of my other responses?
Click to expand...

Sarah, I took his post as joining you in your joke.


----------



## Ryan

SteveSTX said:


> Too far with that one d.a.


Concur. But I'm one of those people as well, since I'm not in the pitchforks and torches brigade.


----------



## Everydaymatters

After all is said and done, it will be interesting to see how many of those who will never ride Amtrak again actually do. I agree with Sarah. Not much has changed since the ammenities were cut and I suspect not much will change with 2.0.


----------



## jis

Everydaymatters said:


> After all is said and done, it will be interesting to see how many of those who will never ride Amtrak again actually do. I agree with Sarah. Not much has changed since the ammenities were cut and I suspect not much will change with 2.0.


I can tell you up front that as a side activity I will be riding some more Amtrak through the month of September, including two trips in Sleeper on the Star (simply because it is cheaper) just 'cause I like to ride trains, and they are all paid trips. I will even collect a few AGR points, and probably even make Select+ for what it may or may not be worth. But that is somewhat secondary. The primary thing is riding trains, whether in the US or anywhere else. No matter what happens to AGR or whatever, I will find a way to ride trains, even Amtrak.  I expect to ride something like 5,000 to 7,000 miles of Amtrak in 2016. Due to my move of residence to a somewhat Amtrak sparse area my Amtrak ridership has about halved from the usual 12,000 to 15,000 or so (the balance was on NEC), but that has little to do with either service changes or AGR changes or anything like that. It is just that it is harder for me to get to Amtrak than it was in NJ.


----------



## tonys96

SteveSTX said:


> Too far with that one d.a.


Disagree.


----------



## rrdude

SarahZ said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a strong feeling the membership on this board will drop substantially next year once this program kicks in and many of us turn elsewhere for our travel needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the same amount it "dropped" after they removed the flowers from the diners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Watch it Sarah, now you are hitting close to home!
> 
> Seriously, flowers, "alone" doesn't mean much, but taken in conjunction with everything else....
> 
> Told ya so!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nobody can take a joke, eh? Did you happen to read any of my other responses?
Click to expand...

Sarah, I 'got it', just didn't respond properly in a way that communicated that.


----------



## tonys96

Those who can afford sleepers and want to ride, will do so. Those who ride sleeper on points, like me, will likely do less, especially those of us here where there are fewer destinations that are accessible for a reasonable amount of points. This change to AGR will not affect my coach trip frequency at all. But it will severely limit my sleeper trips. Just sayin'.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> SteveSTX said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too far with that one d.a.
> 
> 
> 
> Concur. But I'm one of those people as well, since I'm not in the pitchforks and torches brigade.
Click to expand...

Let's go back to the replay then...



SarahZ said:


> My point was that most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.


As we can see Sarah is back to harping on her "Flowergate" diatribe again and this time she has some rather specific claims to go along with it. So who exactly is she talking about and where is the evidence to back up all this big talk? It's bad form to make big bold claims and then run off without explaining how you came to your big bold conclusions. Normally this is what Ryan would be saying long before I could get there but he seems to have his kid gloves on for some reason.



Everydaymatters said:


> After all is said and done, it will be interesting to see how many of those who will never ride Amtrak again actually do. I agree with Sarah. Not much has changed since the ammenities were cut and I suspect not much will change with 2.0.


Since you seem to know enough about it to weigh in why don't you tell us how the year over year passenger numbers look for the last few months?


----------



## tricia

jtoddander said:


> The revised program injects a little bit more rationality into AGR. A certain number of travelers seek to construct the longest possible itinerary...days and miles...for the fewest possible number of points. This group will now have to pay for it or plan a more rational and direct itinerary.


Too bad the revised program does nothing to rationalize the skeleton network that created these irrational routings in the first place..... [this sentence is a quote from D.A.--not sure why it fell out of its quote box]

---------------------------------------------------

For many of us, in many parts of the country, the AGR zone redemption system helped compensate for a "skeleton network" that REQUIRES us to construct very long and roundabout routes to get from where we live to most destinations on Amtrak's national system map. For us, taking those long roundabout routes certainly hasn't been about "gaming the system"--it's been the ONLY option for traveling by train to most parts of Amtrak's system map.

This problem has been noted in several posts relating to Florida in this thread, but affects folks living in many more places that Amtrak purports to serve.

For example, for those of us living in the southeast to travel on Amtrak anywhere west of home (other than New Orleans), we need to first take one train to Washington, then another to Chicago, then at least one more train to our final destination. (Heck, just to get to Florida, those of us served ONLY by the Crescent have to travel two nights, via Washington to have a reasonable connection.)

Under the current zone system, with AGR redemption costs based strictly on departure station and destination station, traveling west from the southeast was reasonably affordable (in points, though not necessarily in time spent to get to one's destination). The new AGR system will make travel from the southeast to anywhere OTHER than the northeast vastly more expensive than just about any other option for getting from point A to point B.

I worry about this aspect of the change in AGR further eroding the already-tenuous viability of Amtrak as a national network. I personally will probably no longer be able to use Amtrak for travel other than perhaps to D.C. and points north in the NEC. I'm sure others on this forum who live in other parts of the U.S. have been reaching similar conclusions, given the limited options Amtrak offers for routing to most places on its system map.


----------



## jis

tonys96 said:


> Those who can afford sleepers and want to ride, will do so. Those who ride sleeper on points, like me, will likely do less, especially those of us here where there are fewer destinations that are accessible for a reasonable amount of points. This change to AGR will not affect my coach trip frequency at all. But it will severely limit my sleeper trips. Just sayin'.


I think that is an accurate assessment of what will happen with many who like to ride trains but cannot afford the Sleeper fares. The open question is if there are enough people with money to spend that will be willing to take on the slack in Sleepers created by those who were riding Sleepers on AGR awards. I have no idea. We'll have to see. But I think it is safe to say that if the slack is picked up then Amtrak will likely come out ahead on he revenue side. If not then they will not.


----------



## rrdude

jis said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those who can afford sleepers and want to ride, will do so. Those who ride sleeper on points, like me, will likely do less, especially those of us here where there are fewer destinations that are accessible for a reasonable amount of points. This change to AGR will not affect my coach trip frequency at all. But it will severely limit my sleeper trips. Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is an accurate assessment of what will happen with many who like to ride trains but cannot afford the Sleeper fares. The open question is if there are enough people with money to spend that will be willing to take on the slack in Sleepers created by those who were riding Sleepers on AGR awards. I have no idea. We'll have to see. But I think it is safe to say that if the slack is picked up then Amtrak will likely come out ahead on he revenue side. If not then they will not.
Click to expand...

JIS, that is the 64 thousand dollar question. I have to believe that Amtrak has the data of "Redeemed vs. Paid" for sleeper space??

Another question, which Amtrak seems to have answered as part of the rationale for some of the AGR policy changes: Is, *even if the "Redeemed" ratio of sleeper reservations is high(er) than Amtrak would like, Amtrak must feel that the "cash" from the partners that buy points, is substantially less than what they could get from the traveling public on the open market*. (i.e.

"paid" sleeper reservations vs. "redeemed") Otherwise, what is the *base reason* for changing the sleeper redemption guidelines?

I've seen tidbits speculating what the BASE or MAJOR reason is/was for making these changes, *What do YOU think the main reason(s) is/are? *(Absent AGR's "official reason"...............)

*Financial? *(Increase revenue potential)

*Political? *(Show Congress-Critters they are "trying" to do "something"...)

*Better for their BEST customers? *(this makes sense, but not if you are not a "Best" customer)

What say you?


----------



## Everydaymatters

Devil's Advocate said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SteveSTX said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too far with that one d.a.
> 
> 
> 
> Concur. But I'm one of those people as well, since I'm not in the pitchforks and torches brigade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's go back to the replay then...
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point was that most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As we can see Sarah is back to harping on her "Flowergate" diatribe again and this time she has some rather specific claims to go along with it. So who exactly is she talking about and where is the evidence to back up all this big talk? It's bad form to make big bold claims and then run off without explaining how you came to your big bold conclusions. Normally this is what Ryan would be saying long before I could get there but he seems to have his kid gloves on for some reason.
> 
> 
> Everydaymatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> After all is said and done, it will be interesting to see how many of those who will never ride Amtrak again actually do. I agree with Sarah. Not much has changed since the ammenities were cut and I suspect not much will change with 2.0.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since you seem to know enough about it to weigh in why don't you tell us how the year over year passenger numbers look for the last few months?
Click to expand...




Devil's Advocate said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SteveSTX said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too far with that one d.a.
> 
> 
> 
> Concur. But I'm one of those people as well, since I'm not in the pitchforks and torches brigade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let's go back to the replay then...
> 
> 
> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point was that most of the people who freaked out about the amenity cuts threatened to never, ever, ever use Amtrak again, and yet they were posting trip reports just a few months later.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As we can see Sarah is back to harping on her "Flowergate" diatribe again and this time she has some rather specific claims to go along with it. So who exactly is she talking about and where is the evidence to back up all this big talk? It's bad form to make big bold claims and then run off without explaining how you came to your big bold conclusions. Normally this is what Ryan would be saying long before I could get there but he seems to have his kid gloves on for some reason.
> 
> 
> Everydaymatters said:
> 
> 
> 
> After all is said and done, it will be interesting to see how many of those who will never ride Amtrak again actually do. I agree with Sarah. Not much has changed since the ammenities were cut and I suspect not much will change with 2.0.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since you seem to know enough about it to weigh in why don't you tell us how the year over year passenger numbers look for the last few months?
Click to expand...

Ouch! I don't know. Purely speculation. Flaming does not have to be a part of this forum. Friendly conversation, even about a different point of view, is always welcome.


----------



## City of Miami

I can remember when AGR instituted the 100 point minimum - when was it, 6 or 8 years ago? What was it before that, just the straight 2pts/$? Was that the beginning of points runs? AGR also used to give us 100 points on our birthdays! And you could get 100 points for filling out a survey and stuff like that from time to time.


----------



## JayPea

I can't speak for anyone else but I won't stop riding Amtrak. I take one or in a couple of cases two long distance trips a year with my uncle. I live in Eastern Washington and he lives in east central Illinois, near Champaign. We meet, usually by my flying to his neck of the woods, then begin our trips from Chicago. This year we altered the plan somewhat as we are meeting in Boston, taking a flipping bus to Albany  and riding in bedrooms the rest of the way to Seattle by way of the LSL to Chicago, the TE to Los Angeles and the CS to Seattle. In fact we leave from Boston two weeks from today. I suspect we won't be taking such elaborate trips again, at least in bedrooms. Maybe in roomettes. But what I suspect will happen is we will be taking more trips east than west. From the looks of it those trips from Chicago to anyplace east have gotten much cheaper now. And we've wanted to do that, particularly the Cardinal, but haven't done it because we haven't wanted to spend our points on shorter trips like that. Or it may be we take the EB to Seattle from Chicago, a more direct route. We both like Seattle, and, as much as we hate to admit it, aren't getting any younger and gets just a bit harder every year to spend days on end on trains.

So I'm sure things will change but one thing that will not change is riding Amtrak.


----------



## tonys96

tricia said:


> jtoddander said:
> 
> 
> 
> The revised program injects a little bit more rationality into AGR. A certain number of travelers seek to construct the longest possible itinerary...days and miles...for the fewest possible number of points. This group will now have to pay for it or plan a more rational and direct itinerary.
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad the revised program does nothing to rationalize the skeleton network that created these irrational routings in the first place..... [this sentence is a quote from D.A.--not sure why it fell out of its quote box]
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> For many of us, in many parts of the country, the AGR zone redemption system helped compensate for a "skeleton network" that REQUIRES us to construct very long and roundabout routes to get from where we live to most destinations on Amtrak's national system map. For us, taking those long roundabout routes certainly hasn't been about "gaming the system"--it's been the ONLY option for traveling by train to most parts of Amtrak's system map.
> 
> This problem has been noted in several posts relating to Florida in this thread, but affects folks living in many more places that Amtrak purports to serve.
> 
> For example, for those of us living in the southeast to travel on Amtrak anywhere west of home (other than New Orleans), we need to first take one train to Washington, then another to Chicago, then at least one more train to our final destination. (Heck, just to get to Florida, those of us served ONLY by the Crescent have to travel two nights, via Washington to have a reasonable connection.)
> 
> Under the current zone system, with AGR redemption costs based strictly on departure station and destination station, traveling west from the southeast was reasonably affordable (in points, though not necessarily in time spent to get to one's destination). The new AGR system will make travel from the southeast to anywhere OTHER than the northeast vastly more expensive than just about any other option for getting from point A to point B.
> 
> I worry about this aspect of the change in AGR further eroding the already-tenuous viability of Amtrak as a national network. I personally will probably no longer be able to use Amtrak for travel other than perhaps to D.C. and points north in the NEC. I'm sure others on this forum who live in other parts of the U.S. have been reaching similar conclusions, given the limited options Amtrak offers for routing to most places on its system map.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The zone maps made if affordable in points for those of us who have little choice in destinations from home stations. Having to pay more in points to go to Chicago to start a trip to a final destination will make it be far more onerous. Seems that might have been a 'fairness' rationale for the one system. It was for me. To allow for affordable access to s estimations for all of America, not just the hub stations and surrounding areas.


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those who can afford sleepers and want to ride, will do so. Those who ride sleeper on points, like me, will likely do less, especially those of us here where there are fewer destinations that are accessible for a reasonable amount of points. This change to AGR will not affect my coach trip frequency at all. But it will severely limit my sleeper trips. Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is an accurate assessment of what will happen with many who like to ride trains but cannot afford the Sleeper fares. The open question is if there are enough people with money to spend that will be willing to take on the slack in Sleepers created by those who were riding Sleepers on AGR awards. I have no idea. We'll have to see. But I think it is safe to say that if the slack is picked up then Amtrak will likely come out ahead on he revenue side. If not then they will not.
Click to expand...

Not just "can't afford", but also "Don't see the value".

I see this as AGR charging me a $250/year membership fee.


----------



## jis

It depends on specific segments. For example, I can see more AGR usage in Sleeper travel between the NEC and Chicago, since it is likely to be less expensive in AGR terms than a two zone award used to be. OTOH, Florida to New York is sort of some plus and some minus depending on bucket status. What is really clobbered as far as AGR travel is concerned is the multi train trips. Who knows? Maybe shorter payed segments with multiple turnovers is going to become more prevalent. it is hard to predict what will happen overall.


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> It depends on specific segments. For example, I can see more AGR usage in Sleeper travel between the NEC and Chicago, since it is likely to be less expensive in AGR terms than a two zone award used to be. OTOH, Florida to New York is sort of some plus and some minus depending on bucket status. What is really clobbered as far as AGR travel is concerned is the multi train trips. Who knows? Maybe shorter payed segments with multiple turnovers is going to become more prevalent. it is hard to predict what will happen overall.


Which, given AMTK's skeletal nature, means what's really clobbered is 3/4 of the country.

I'm starting to wonder if some of this isn't political (third rail of Amtrak, I know, still)... this change basically rewards people in the blue states, who happen to "support" Amtrak (such as it is), and punishes the red ones, who "don't" (such as it is). Of course, this will do nothing but HURT the whole system's eyes in those red states... but sooner or later someone's gonna have to realize that on top of having several of the largest cities in the country (Dallas/Atlanta/Houston) having only once daily (at best, half that in the case of Houston) service, AND basically telling them to go pound sand with the rewards program, is not going to ever garner any love for them in these areas.


----------



## jis

I don't know if it has directly anything to do with Red/Blue, though indirectly it does work out that way to quite an extent. What is being favored, by their own admission as presented to LOSSAN Board, is corridor travel. So naturally where corridors are more prevalent that is where you see the greatest advantages. Also you see advantages where in the past a zone boundary was gratuitously placed at an unnatural place to make a 900 mile journey more expensive. So wherever there is corridor service they come out ahead, and guess where much of the corridor services are. Of course irrespective of Red or Blue,

One thing that does surprise me though that the Sleeper tickets do not get a TQP bonus, but that would be consistent with the corridor focus with incidental usability on LD trains. One could argue that this is bad and one would probably be right too. But such as it is, here we are where we are....

Bottom line seems to be that Amtrak focuses on and rewards those areas wherever there is strong political support for it, and for the rest it just tries to preserve the core existing service and leaves it at that. If political support develops somewhere where there wasn't before it does pay heed to such. That was the story of the Texas Eagle which from the verge of being cancelled became a daily train, or the Heartland Flyer, which came into existence.


----------



## jebr

Since AGR redemptions are now tied to the cash fare, isn't the biggest complaint is that the cash fare on many routes is simply way too high, especially when a connection is involved?

If so, using AGR as a way to make those specific routes "cheaper" (as it was in some cases under AGR 1.x) seems like a really odd way for Amtrak (or the mechanism people would want Amtrak to use) to have that happen. It doesn't help the majority of people who look at taking Amtrak for the first time, see a sky-high fare, and decide to book travel another way instead. It doesn't help those who don't want to wait to earn points through a loyalty program (either by credit card, spend through the AGR portal, or partner earning) and dedicate that purchasing power to Amtrak instead of another rewards program or cash back program. It doesn't help those who can't afford the points, or don't want to purchase points in hopes that the redemption will be cheaper than the cost of the points. AGR, as it was before, was not exactly intuitive (especially to the value of points and how even purchasing points could make a trip cheaper than paying cash for the same trip.)

It would be much better if Amtrak would somehow use this opportunity to reform the system and make those trips cheaper and more available to everyone, not just those who happen to be "in the know" of AGR. Maybe that will happen; as rooms go unsold or can't command the higher rates (and AGR members aren't taking them) sleeper prices may very well drop for cash fare, helping everyone. This may very well help Amtrak as well, as my understanding was that the cost AGR pays Amtrak for a trip is lower (potentially, in some cases, much lower) than what the cash price is for that room at any given point in time. Maybe that revenue movement has changed as well, essentially "forcing" the change onto AGR.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Excellent summation jis. 

And we miss Kay Bailey in the Senate!, (one of the Saviours of Amtrak and the godmother of the Texas Eagle!)


----------



## NorthShore

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Unless something changes on the "new" AGR Card the only way to get 10,000 Points for $5,000 spending is for that spendiing to be on Amtrak.


I would argue, "As it should be!" Since this makes it a reward for spending money upon and riding Amtrak, itself.

Which is another reason why eliminating the 100 point minimum befuddles me a bit. This is a reward for encouraging people to pay cash for ride service. Which ought to be maximized rather than minimized. Yes, some (a relative few, I suspect) may "game" that aspect a bit, and benefit from it. But they are spending money riding the train, and therefore (at least minimally) helping to fill up seats, raise demand, and increase ticket prices. All a good thing, from a business perspective, which I'd say deserves to be rewarded.


----------



## jis

It seems to me that the 100 point minimum has to do more with encouraging very short low fare trips. Maybe there was a time when Amtrak though that was a good idea. now with trains overflowing maybe it is not such a good idea afterall, encouraging clogging up seats with very short haul which prevents medium haul passengers from getting them. Just a random alternate explanation.


----------



## tonys96

NorthShore said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something changes on the "new" AGR Card the only way to get 10,000 Points for $5,000 spending is for that spendiing to be on Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue, "As it should be!" Since this makes it a reward for spending money upon and riding Amtrak, itself.
> 
> Which is another reason why eliminating the 100 point minimum befuddles me a bit. This is a reward for encouraging people to pay cash for ride service.
Click to expand...

Agree that it is good for you, in Chicago, where there are several daily trains in all directions. For those of us without those choices, maybe not so much.....just sayin'


----------



## NorthShore

tonys96 said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something changes on the "new" AGR Card the only way to get 10,000 Points for $5,000 spending is for that spendiing to be on Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue, "As it should be!" Since this makes it a reward for spending money upon and riding Amtrak, itself.Which is another reason why eliminating the 100 point minimum befuddles me a bit. This is a reward for encouraging people to pay cash for ride service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agree that it is good for you, in Chicago, where there are several daily trains in all directions. For those of us without those choices, maybe not so much.....just sayin'
Click to expand...

So, would you say that elimination of the 100 point minimum might be a good thing, then? A sort of national equalization factor?


----------



## tonys96

NorthShore said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something changes on the "new" AGR Card the only way to get 10,000 Points for $5,000 spending is for that spendiing to be on Amtrak.
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue, "As it should be!" Since this makes it a reward for spending money upon and riding Amtrak, itself.Which is another reason why eliminating the 100 point minimum befuddles me a bit. This is a reward for encouraging people to pay cash for ride service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agree that it is good for you, in Chicago, where there are several daily trains in all directions. For those of us without those choices, maybe not so much.....just sayin'
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, would you say that elimination of the 100 point minimum might be a good thing, then? A sort of national equalization factor?
Click to expand...

False Narrative. One has nothing to do with the other. I never took a 'points run' so that affects me not one iota.


----------



## me_little_me

tonys96 said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see a few gems in the sludge given that one would expect Amtrak to finally implement a penalty for changing/cancelling points trips and expect that costs in points would have gone up one way or the other.
> 
> My age gets me senior discount so paying in points gets me some point discount.
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to post #409.
Click to expand...


----------



## Anderson

DA,

For what it's worth I _have_ looked over those YOY numbers and they're mostly flat over the last few months and up slightly YTD. However, they're at a pretty high ratio of effective capacity on a bunch of routes as well (remember, even under near-ideal circumstances you cannot fill _every_ seat on _every_ train for the entire route). Bear in mind that some of the "drop" for the last month or two is, I believe, due to _not_ having a split in Sunset/Eagle ridership due to trackwork...and some of the countervailing rise is due to a "dead cat bounce" on the Builder from last year's _atrocious_ OTP, cancellations, etc. Note that I only have data through June; no telling what those wildfires are going to do. A lot of this is also pending the long-term effects on the Auto Train of some of the service "shuffling"...IIRC the speculation on here is that ridership held up as strongly as it did because folks had trips booked _long_ before they announced the cuts.

Link to data:
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/494/528/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-June-2015.pdf


----------



## NorthShore

tonys96 said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you say that elimination of the 100 point minimum might be a good thing, then? A sort of national equalization factor?
> 
> 
> 
> False Narrative. One has nothing to do with the other. I never took a 'points run' so that affects me not one iota.
Click to expand...

And I've rarely taken any, either.

But, perhaps, both of us have taken a $49 ride in coach. Or a $80 ride during double points season. And, therefore, likewise, benefited from the bonus.


----------



## JoeBas

NorthShore said:


> And I've rarely taken any, either.
> 
> But, perhaps, both of us have taken a $49 ride in coach. Or a $80 ride during double points season. And, therefore, likewise, benefited from the bonus.


In my case, you'd be wrong.

Nearest stations for me departing from my "home" station are about 2 hours TT east, or 5 hours TT west. Oh, and if I take them, I have to either wait until the _next day _to return (Beaumont), or if I'm lucky, get to sit all night in a sketchy area to catch the train back the next morning (San Antonio).

It's okay, though, it's not like I, you know, live in the 4th biggest city in the country or anything... ... ...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anderson said:


> DA,
> 
> For what it's worth I _have_ looked over those YOY numbers and they're mostly flat over the last few months and up slightly YTD. However, they're at a pretty high ratio of effective capacity on a bunch of routes as well (remember, even under near-ideal circumstances you cannot fill _every_ seat on _every_ train for the entire route). Bear in mind that some of the "drop" for the last month or two is, I believe, due to _not_ having a split in Sunset/Eagle ridership due to trackwork...and some of the countervailing rise is due to a "dead cat bounce" on the Builder from last year's _atrocious_ OTP, cancellations, etc. Note that I only have data through June; no telling what those wildfires are going to do. A lot of this is also pending the long-term effects on the Auto Train of some of the service "shuffling"...IIRC the speculation on here is that ridership held up as strongly as it did because folks had trips booked _long_ before they announced the cuts.
> 
> Link to data:
> 
> http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/494/528/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-June-2015.pdf


I would agree that many of the larger ridership moves have been contaminated by external factors. Nonetheless in my view the renewed narrative already claiming that several rounds of amenity cuts, service reductions, cost increases, and rule tightening will have little or no impact is premature at best and overtly manipulative at worst. Personally I believe that accumulating a decade plus of sustained ridership increases was one of Amtrak's best selling points and that momentum appears to have been squandered in favor of a strategy based on strangling budgets into profitability.


----------



## jis

Amtrak has been a bit up against a capacity limit on many routes until we get the next new set of equipment in the midwest. That may be confounding some of the ridership growth numbers in a few routes too. So I think it is also premature to come to the conclusion that anything has been squandered either. What is good for the goose (one side of the argument) should be equally good for the gander (the other side). Frankly I don't know for sure and I take fervently stated theories as just that theories with inadequate factual foundation. We will know for sure only in several years, not right at this moment.


----------



## tonys96

NorthShore said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you say that elimination of the 100 point minimum might be a good thing, then? A sort of national equalization factor?
> 
> 
> 
> False Narrative. One has nothing to do with the other. I never took a 'points run' so that affects me not one iota.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And I've rarely taken any, either.
> 
> But, perhaps, both of us have taken a $49 ride in coach. Or a $80 ride during double points season. And, therefore, likewise, benefited from the bonus.
Click to expand...

That would be a false assumption. I do not go anywhere, unless I have a reason to be there.

And the loss of 100 point minimums *still *has nothing to do with the devaluation of points for those of us who do not have local access to several trains/destinations on a daily basis, like those in, say, the NE, Chi, Was, LA, etc.........two completely separate and individual things. Just Sayin'


----------



## rrdude

jebr said:


> Since AGR redemptions are now tied to the cash fare, isn't the biggest complaint is that the cash fare on many routes is simply way too high, especially when a connection is involved?
> 
> If so, using AGR as a way to make those specific routes "cheaper" (as it was in some cases under AGR 1.x) seems like a really odd way for Amtrak (or the mechanism people would want Amtrak to use) to have that happen. It doesn't help the majority of people who look at taking Amtrak for the first time, see a sky-high fare, and decide to book travel another way instead. It doesn't help those who don't want to wait to earn points through a loyalty program (either by credit card, spend through the AGR portal, or partner earning) and dedicate that purchasing power to Amtrak instead of another rewards program or cash back program. It doesn't help those who can't afford the points, or don't want to purchase points in hopes that the redemption will be cheaper than the cost of the points. AGR, as it was before, was not exactly intuitive (especially to the value of points and how even purchasing points could make a trip cheaper than paying cash for the same trip.)
> 
> *It would be much better if Amtrak would somehow use this opportunity to reform the system and make those trips cheaper and more available to everyone, not just those who happen to be "in the know" of AGR.* Maybe that will happen; as rooms go unsold or can't command the higher rates (and AGR members aren't taking them) sleeper prices may very well drop for cash fare, helping everyone. This may very well help Amtrak as well, as my understanding was that the cost AGR pays Amtrak for a trip is lower (potentially, in some cases, much lower) than what the cash price is for that room at any given point in time. Maybe that revenue movement has changed as well, essentially "forcing" the change onto AGR.


Dude, I want some of whatever you are smoking..........


----------



## BCL

I found several articles that read like press releases. Here's one:

http://www.travelpulse.com/news/car-rental-and-rail/amtrak-upgrading-rewards-program-for-2016.html

He seems to be doing a lot of fluff pieces, but his byline is attached to at least a few articles that look to be more than just repackaged press releases. However, his LinkedIn profile lists a masters degree from a community college. So take it for what it's worth.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep, doess anyone know an actual living human being who talks like this Exec VP Hardisan?

It reads like a Press release from apolitical campaign, a bunch of hot air minus the bad news which is in the fine print!

Pleeze! It's all Marketing BS and Newspeak, as has been said, putting Lipstick on a Pig doesn't make anyone with a mind forget it's still a Pig!

George Orwell is smiling somewhere in the great beyond!

And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?


----------



## seat38a

Manny T said:


> What's wrong with that is 2-fold:
> 
> (1) It tends to lessen the financial viability of the whole system. Amtrak HQ knows in a general way what ridership and travel trends are, what said travel generates in terms of revenue, how many passengers will join AGR and will earn points, how much their award travel will "cost." These calculations go into setting fares, and the result is a financially viable system, including AGR awards. Now imagine that instead of traveling (per trends, estimates etc.), people just load up on points via cheap "points runs" and collect their expensive AGR awards. Net result--system is broken, estimates useless, revenue not covering expenses, awards eating up profits, and on and on. Net net, the result is AGR 2.0 which many are unhappy with.
> 
> (2) Seeing the point run abuses, Amtrak clamps down & eliminates the 100 point minimum. Hence I lose a nice fringe benefit of my CHI-MKE round trips (cost $48). And no, I'm not happy about that.





OEBB said:


> Disclaimer: I'm an NEC rider based out of NYP, but I'm not feeling great about the new AGR so I'm going to share my perspective (if for no other reason than to vent).
> 
> I travel most extensively to to BOS. I travel occasionally to PHL and WAS. I get that the "city pairs" were wonky because you could do PVD-BWI and get less than 500 points while someone else traveling just from BOS-STM gets 500, but if the TQPs required for Select Plus and Select Executive stay the same its going to be much harder to earn stays. I qualified for S+ in June and should hit SE in October courtesy of 500 TQPs on my $113 low-bucket tickets to BOs. With the new system I won't come anywhere near spending $10,000 with Amtrak. Based on the current fare structure, I can really only see NYP-WAS travelers qualifying for SE. In fact, if my travel drops slightly next year I may not even qualify for S+. The Club Acela in BOS is about to get even quieter.
> 
> Now that it's harder to earn TQPs and points on the Acela (and no 100 point minimum) I wonder if they'll drop the cost of the Club Acela passes and first class upgrades?
> 
> I get that I'm not going to get a lot of sympathy from most on this board as a business traveler who has my Acela business fare paid for me, but please know that as an NEC-North customer I'm also feeling like I'm losing something with the "new and improved AGR."


As someone who frequently commutes, I know the same pain. There are lots of talk on here about sleepers and LD travel, but corridor travel is the future and based on how you calculate "profit" (On the NEC, its about pure cash, while in California, success is measured on getting cars off the already congested freeway.) has been successful. Punishing the daily or weekly riders is probably the worst way to build political capital when fighting for left over pennies. By no means am I anti LD or sleepers. I pay for 1 or 2 trips in a bedroom a year.

I can't find the PDF but couple weeks ago, but it said something like AGR contributed to 8,000,000 ish in revenue to the Surfliner. Also at least for us out in California, it looks like LOSSAN plans to add enhancements on top of the program and not settle for it as is.



> Develop additional route-specific incentives to supplement the existing Amtrak Guest Rewards program, offering added value to appeal to business travelers. (i.e. vouchers for free on-board meals/drinks, etc.) This would enhance the appeal of the Pacific Surfliner to business-minded passengers.


You can read the whole business plan here: http://www.octa.net/pdf/LOSSAN%20Business%20Plan%20FINAL.pdf

If anything, it maybe the States that work with the AGR to add value to their sponsored trains.

We maybe at a point where one program no longer fits the whole national system and may need to have a basic "federal" and enhanced "state" supplement to AGR.


----------



## BCL

jimhudson said:


> Yep, doess anyone know an actual living human being who talks like this Exec VP Hardisan?
> 
> It reads like a Press release from apolitical campaign, a bunch of hot air minus the bad news which is in the fine print!
> 
> Pleeze! It's all Marketing BS and Newspeak, as has been said, putting Lipstick on a Pig doesn't make anyone with a mind forget it's still a Pig!
> 
> George Orwell is smiling somewhere in the great beyond!
> 
> And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?


I found a photo of Matt Harrison. Was posted to the Amtrak blog but their link is broken. The original photo still exists.







https://www.linkedin.com/pub/matt-hardison/3/740/29a

As for community colleges, the state board that governs them in California approved bachelor's degrees in specific majors that wouldn't duplicated either CSU or UC programs.


----------



## SarahZ

jimhudson said:


> And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?


Where do you see that? :huh: He got his MBA from Penn State. That's a Big Ten school.


----------



## Bob Dylan

SarahZ said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see that? :huh: He got his MBA from Penn State. That's a Big Ten school.
Click to expand...

Sarah:BCL said in his post that the guys "Linked-in" Profile says he has a Masters Degree from.a Community College! They do things differently on the Left Coast!
And I think he's talking about the writer of the press release, er article, not Amtrak VP Hardison!,

And BTW, Hardison is, Surprise!,an ex-Air and Corporate suit! And his list of Skills is Amazing, he should be running for President if he can really do all of those things? He's underemployed @ Amtrak!


----------



## BCL

SarahZ said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see that? :huh: He got his MBA from Penn State. That's a Big Ten school.
Click to expand...

He's talking about the author of the article. I'm not going to post his LinkedIn profile, but you can look up his name.


----------



## SarahZ

jimhudson said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see that? :huh: He got his MBA from Penn State. That's a Big Ten school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sarah:BCL said in his post that the guys "Linked-in" Profile says he has a Masters Degree from.a Community College! They do things differently on the Left Coast!
> And I think he's talking about the writer of the press release, er article, not Amtrak VP Hardison!,
Click to expand...

Okay. I must have read the wrong response and got confused.


----------



## BCL

jimhudson said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see that? :huh: He got his MBA from Penn State. That's a Big Ten school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sarah:BCL said in his post that the guys "Linked-in" Profile says he has a Masters Degree from.a Community College! They do things differently on the Left Coast!
> And I think he's talking about the writer of the press release, er article, not Amtrak VP Hardison!,
> 
> And BTW, Hardison is, Surprise!,an ex-Air and Corporate suit! And his list of Skills is Amazing, he should be running for President if he can really do all of those things? He's underemployed @ Amtrak!
Click to expand...

The writer is from PA. I'm kind of feeling bad for the guy if he's claiming he got a master from a community college. I'll send you a PM.


----------



## Ryan

jimhudson said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Masters Degrees from a Community College! Wow, I want one of those! Are they available for a fee via mail order or on- line?
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you see that? :huh: He got his MBA from Penn State. That's a Big Ten school.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sarah:BCL said in his post that the guys "Linked-in" Profile says he has a Masters Degree from.a Community College! They do things differently on the Left Coast!And I think he's talking about the writer of the press release, er article, not Amtrak VP Hardison!,
> 
> And BTW, Hardison is, Surprise!,an ex-Air and Corporate suit! And his list of Skills is Amazing, he should be running for President if he can really do all of those things? He's underemployed @ Amtrak!
Click to expand...

Delaware has been relocated to the left coast? Betty isn't going to like that!


----------



## BCL

Ryan said:


> Delaware has been relocated to the left coast? Betty isn't going to like that!


Delaware County actually. The irony is that it's not in Delaware but borders it. I think the Keystone runs through parts of the county.

I'm actually feeling kind of bad about any possible ridicule, so that's why I didn't directly post his profile URL.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Delaware County borders the Delaware River.

Since my daughter & grand kids live on the other side of the country, it might not be so bad if Delaware was moved over there. :giggle:


----------



## NorthShore

JoeBas said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I've rarely taken any, either.
> 
> But, perhaps, both of us have taken a $49 ride in coach. Or a $80 ride during double points season. And, therefore, likewise, benefited from the bonus.
> 
> 
> 
> In my case, you'd be wrong.
> 
> Nearest stations for me departing from my "home" station are about 2 hours TT east, or 5 hours TT west. Oh, and if I take them, I have to either wait until the _next day _to return (Beaumont), or if I'm lucky, get to sit all night in a sketchy area to catch the train back the next morning (San Antonio).
> 
> It's okay, though, it's not like I, you know, live in the 4th biggest city in the country or anything... ... ...
Click to expand...

We're 4th now????? That totally sucks. I mean, the comedy school is going to have to change their name, and everything.
But, I'm curious.....what's coach fare to either of those cities? Or to any other city, for that matter, where you might want to spend a night or more? Is there anyplace that you could, conceivably, go for under fifty bucks? Or under a hundred during double points season?


----------



## NorthShore

tonys96 said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, perhaps, both of us have taken a $49 ride in coach. Or a $80 ride during double points season. And, therefore, likewise, benefited from the bonus.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a false assumption. I do not go anywhere, unless I have a reason to be there.
Click to expand...

Well, at least we (mostly) have that in common. Though, I can't deny "joyriding" entirely, having taken at least a train ride or two in my life just for the pure love of it. You ought to try that sometime. You might find it rewarding.


----------



## benale

Speaking of Double Days...I wonder if Amtrak will even have it this month. With the way things have been going..I wonder. I'd like to get those extra points. I have quite a few trips planned for this fall and none are point runs. Of course, if Double Days are back I might have to do a few of those.


----------



## Carolina Special

Perhaps in 2016 Double Days will be replaced by a brief return of the 100 points minimum. Call it "Minimum Month".


----------



## BCL

NorthShore said:


> We're 4th now????? That totally sucks. I mean, the comedy school is going to have to change their name, and everything.


3rd actually.

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/pdf/cb14-89_pop_table2.pdf


----------



## jis

Given the relative rate of growth of Houston and Chicago, it may not be too long before the two flip.

I was a bit surprised, but not much, when Florida overtook new York State to become the third most populous in the country. I think something similar will happen between Chicago and Houston.


----------



## abcnews

I know there is disappointment regarding AGR dropping the old Zone system for rewards, and the new plan is not quite as generous - but overall I am pretty content with the way they have made the changes. It makes sense. Here is my spin on everything...

1. The old zone system is still in effect until late January 2016. So nothing even changes for some time, you can still book 2016 trips up until January 23, 2016.

2. They could have just dropped the program, they are under the scrutiny of anti-rail segment of Congress that wants to eliminate Amtrak. It puts them in a tough place... So not only is the program continuing, but overall it looks like a decent program.

3. The new award chart favors looking for days with low bucket, etc. In the past there was absolutely no incentive to travel at off peak times, or to book far in advance. It was not an issue - just finding availability was all that mattered. The airline programs seem to promote better rewards at off peak times.

4. I am in numerous airline programs and most offer no viable option of canceling an award trip without a major penalty. And they all are pretty much based on space available. I am not so sure that it was fair to AGR and Amtrak - that you had the option to cancel a free trip an hour or so before departure. I loved that feature, but the new 10% penalty will be a bit more fair to both parties.

5. The zone system was far from perfect... The idea that Cleveland to Chicago was two zones, and yet Cleveland to Miami is only one zone, created an unbalanced reward chart. I liked looking for long routes, and will do a few in 2016 under the old program. But moving forward, it's still a good program. Especially with the AGR credit card being continued. I am looking forward to getting the new card.

6. No Holiday blackout. Sometimes only one portion of a free trip met the "Holiday" criteria, so that is no longer an issue. I like that.


----------



## JoeBas

When I said 4th biggest, I was talking about the city I live in (Houston), not the one you do.

To answer your question regarding fares, looking at Amsnag:

Low bucket to Beaumont (nearest station east) is $14... but your return is the next day, so you're either adding on a $100 hotel, or having someone drive 2 hours to pick you up and take you home (gas and family aggravation of 4 hour round trip).

Without adding a hotel expense, you're looking at going to SAS to the west, or NOL to the east, and just staying out all night (12a-6a in SAS, 9p-9a in NOL).

Low bucket to SAS is $27, NOL is $42, one-way. Both are about a 5 hour drive.


----------



## publife

Re: abcnews "I am in numerous airline programs and most offer no viable option of canceling an award trip without a major penalty. And they all are pretty much based on space available. I am not so sure that it was fair to AGR and Amtrak - that you had the option to cancel a free trip an hour or so before departure. I loved that feature, but the new 10% penalty will be a bit more fair to both parties."

That's one of the things I like best about Southwest - cancellation of points travel right up to the last minute. Additionally, they also have no blackout dates and you can theoretically book the last seat on the plane with points - I say theoretically because last minute flights are often an order of magnitude more expensive than those booked in advance. I often book speculative flights because I know I can cancel without cost.

I will agree that most airline loyalty programs have rather poor availability, and less attractive cancellation policies. I just wanted to point out that the largest revenue based system out there manages to allow redemption at sale rates AND offers free cancellation/modification even last minute.


----------



## abcnews

I am not familiar with SW Airlines, but I agree - those are certainly marvelous features, and unusual for an airline FF Program. And I would say features that encourage customer loyalty.

BTW - At least AGR is only a 10% cancellation fee (although a 14 days out on a sleeper reservation.). And the new AGR allows for last minute travel, although the bucket could be very high in a some cases. But in some situations, the new program allows last minute travel for a reasonable amount of points.


----------



## BCL

JoeBas said:


> When I said 4th biggest, I was talking about the city I live in (Houston), not the one you do.


Sorry - all the responses got kind of confusing. However, I think Houston is mostly just one big suburb. I knew a few people from large cities in Texas, and many said that it's basically houses on one block and empty blocks on another. Housing is generally a place to live and not really an investment. Sometimes it's a large political boundary. You look at other "cities" around the world, and it's just basically an entire metropolitan area that's considered a "city".

However, if you look at population density among cities with more than 500,000 people, NYC is #1 and San Francisco is #2. However, San Francisco is only 47 square miles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population


----------



## C855B

I appreciate the discussion of the low level details which I find useful to be aware of, which in sum make the program and the using it more complicated than I want to deal with. The current way is easy - if there's space, you call the 800 number book your trip. Done, and you don't have to worry about losing points if life interferes with travel.

I notice that several of you saw what I did, several pages ago - the new system punishes using the LD network and tends to favor the corridor trains. Living in Flyover, USA, we're LD customers only, so there you go.

Bottom line for us is the bottom line. For those of us "buying" points with the Chase card co-marketing (and whoever replaces them), the new system is equivalent to a 2.9% cash back. That's versus the 4 to 6% cash back with the current schedule. Somebody said "value", and that's the crux of what is being changed here. The new system is a poor value.

Sadly, we are unable to spare the time to take one last points-only LD trip before the new redemption schedule kicks-in. We'll hang on to the points, of course, and use them next year, even if they're worth half what they were. We won't apply for the new co-marketed credit card when it comes out, and replace our use of the Chase card with another affinity card with a straight, unlimited 2% cash back.

We certainly won't write off train travel completely. However, seeing that we're retired and don't _need_ to travel anywhere we can't go in the car, I suspect our train travel will be cut in half, or more. Good thing we hit our goal this spring of a trip on the EB just to complete our Western LD train "bucket list".


----------



## BCL

abcnews said:


> I am not familiar with SW Airlines, but I agree - those are certainly marvelous features, and unusual for an airline FF Program. And I would say features that encourage customer loyalty.
> 
> BTW - At least AGR is only a 10% cancellation fee (although a 14 days out on a sleeper reservation.). And the new AGR allows for last minute travel, although the bucket could be very high in a some cases. But in some situations, the new program allows last minute travel for a reasonable amount of points.


A lot of people don't like their seating policies. Also - they're not as cheap as they used to be. I remember looking at their "everyday fares" back in the late 90s and it was super cheap compared to the legacy airlines. Now it's not. I remember hearing at one time they hedged with jet fuel futures and it paid off big time when the price of oil went way up. However, that only works for a short time and sometimes they can get burned if they go down.


----------



## willem

C855B said:


> Bottom line for us is the bottom line. For those of us "buying" points with the Chase card co-marketing (and whoever replaces them), the new system is equivalent to a 2.9% cash back. That's versus the 4 to 6% cash back with the current schedule. Somebody said "value", and that's the crux of what is being changed here. The new system is a poor value.


As noted elsewhere, it isn't really as high as 2.9% because the redemption will not be based on discounted (AAA, senior, maybe others) fares.


----------



## JoeBas

BCL said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I said 4th biggest, I was talking about the city I live in (Houston), not the one you do.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry - all the responses got kind of confusing. However, I think Houston is mostly just one big suburb. I knew a few people from large cities in Texas, and many said that it's basically houses on one block and empty blocks on another. Housing is generally a place to live and not really an investment. Sometimes it's a large political boundary. You look at other "cities" around the world, and it's just basically an entire metropolitan area that's considered a "city".
> 
> However, if you look at population density among cities with more than 500,000 people, NYC is #1 and San Francisco is #2. However, San Francisco is only 47 square miles.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
Click to expand...

This makes absolutely no sense.

Are we very dense? Not particularly. Do we have the 4th highest population, with no other Amtrak stops in the metro area? Yes.

So from a "Number of people calling Houston their home Amtrak Station" standpoint, what difference does it make if we're stacked vertically, or horizontally?


----------



## JoeBas

C855B said:


> Sadly, we are unable to spare the time to take one last points-only LD trip before the new redemption schedule kicks-in. We'll hang on to the points, of course, and use them next year, even if they're worth half what they were.


Keep in mind that you only have to RESERVE by January 24th, not travel - so really you could book now for travel next summer, under the existing rules.


----------



## jis

So I suppose you could travel on as late as December 24th 2016 on a current rule AGR award.


----------



## BCL

JoeBas said:


> This makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> Are we very dense? Not particularly. Do we have the 4th highest population, with no other Amtrak stops in the metro area? Yes.
> 
> So from a "Number of people calling Houston their home Amtrak Station" standpoint, what difference does it make if we're stacked vertically, or horizontally?


I'm just saying the city itself isn't so much the deal as the larger area. Counting population within a certain border is just a matter of someone drawing a line on a map. I thought I was hearing a joke about Chicago being the "Second City", and I guess that all started with some confusion over what was meant by "4th largest".


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> So I suppose you could travel on as late as December 24th 2016 on a current rule AGR award.


Indeed... we've got almost 40k points (within a couple of flowers purchases), so we're taking a western trip we've always wanted to (CHI/LAX/SEA? HOU/SEA? CHI/EMY/SEA? Something) next summer, which we'll reserve in January once we're as sure as possible about our schedule (don't want to have to make changes and risk them yanking the rug out). Then we're likely done traveling on Amtrak, until the next paradigm shift (dramatic airfare increase, devaluation of United MP, return of sanity to AGR, etc).


----------



## SteveSFL

Joebas, you can do San Antonio-Springfield-Galesburg-Sacramento-Seattle as a 2-zone. That's 111 hours total time. If you don't want to spend the night in San Antonio, you can start your trip in Marshall, Tx and it will put you on that routing too. Then just buy a ticket from Houston to Marshall ($37). Of course both of those routings include short bus trips.

Or if you can stomach the new food on the CONO you could fly to NOL in the morning and then do NOL-CHI-LAX-SEA.

All are good 4 night trips.


----------



## JoeBas

I was hoping to do something like "Paid reservation to ELP, 2 roomettes SL/CS/CZ to DEN (1 zone), visit DEN for a couple days, 2 roomettes from DEN to SEA CZ/CS, then fly home from SEA", but for some reason Amtrak doesn't travel between ELP and DEN.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

JoeBas said:


> I was hoping to do something like "Paid reservation to ELP, 2 roomettes SL/CS/CZ to DEN (1 zone), visit DEN for a couple days, 2 roomettes from DEN to SEA CZ/CS, then fly home from SEA", but for some reason Amtrak doesn't travel between ELP and DEN.


In the past you could simply ask Anthony to add that routing back again via FT, but that option doesn't appear to be relevant or possible anymore.


----------



## JoeBas

Yeah somehow I don't think Amtrak is going to be doing any flavors for someone who's said they want to maximize their remaining freebie points and then stop riding. LOL


----------



## jis

Just for kicks I wonder if it is possible to do ELP - ABQ - Raton - DEN.The only train segment would be on SWC from ABQ to Raton. Most likely someone at Amtrak would fall off his chair.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The dog runs ELP-ABQ but its not a thru way that can connect with the SWC, just a scheduled Greyhound route.

That's probably not too much wierder than people Voluntarily! riding the San Joaquin./Bustitution between the Bay Area and LAX instead of riding on the Starlight!


----------



## jis

Yeah except that to go from ELP to Denver by train it is like going to the moon and back


----------



## JoeBas

Well, AMTK won't show a valid route from any of the NM or AZ Sunset Route stations to Denver either, nor many of the CA stations... and that doesn't seem TOO farfetched to me.


----------



## NorthShore

JoeBas said:


> When I said 4th biggest, I was talking about the city I live in (Houston), not the one you do.


Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. Because, you know, "4th city" just isn't funny!


> To answer your question regarding fares, looking at Amsnag:
> 
> Low bucket to Beaumont (nearest station east) is $14... but your return is the next day, so you're either adding on a $100 hotel, or having someone drive 2 hours to pick you up and take you home (gas and family aggravation of 4 hour round trip).
> 
> Without adding a hotel expense, you're looking at going to SAS to the west, or NOL to the east, and just staying out all night (12a-6a in SAS, 9p-9a in NOL).


And you're saying that is a BAD thing?!?!


> Low bucket to SAS is $27, NOL is $42, one-way. Both are about a 5 hour drive.


Cool. So, actually, this offers a good comparison for what I'm getting at. Because, you see, a number of the bonuses I have earned haven't been from daytrips, either. Sure, I can go (and have been) to Milwaukee and back. My two entire visits to California included a little corridor riding. And I think that the bonus for riding the San Francisco to EMY shuttle bus is a bit ridiculous. But I have also earned minimum bonuses on rides to South Bend, Niles MI, Bloomington IL, and even St. Paul, MN and Harrisburg, PA. All purpose driven travel to places where I have spent more than just a single overnight. And an upcoming trip I have planned to D.C. should offer (guess!), that's right, 200 points for my $96 ticket - assuming double points season is still on.
So, you see, it isn't entirely essential to have lots of corridor service or daytrips available to benefit by the minimum point system. Shoot, I WISH I could take Amtrak to NOL or SAS at those prices. I'd be doing it often.


----------



## PPorro

This is going to be real simple (I hope?) How much is a one zone redemption from Chicago to Dallas *NOW*?

I went to compare and got this: "Important:I understand that the points required for my selected travel will be held upon clicking the "Next" button and may not be immediately available if I cancel this trip. I agree that I must cancel my trip prior to departure or my points will be forfeited."

I don't want to lock in for the date, I just want to see how many points?

On the other hand I used the new price based calculator and it's roughly 10,600 points for the trip.

This is one way, one adult, romette. And I'm wondering if I want to make the trip before the "new improved, better" system starts. ;-)

As for all the points and cards talk, I'll wait and see, but I'd hate to see the Chase card go, I use it for everything. Because I get AGR points!


----------



## SarahZ

PPorro said:


> This is going to be real simple (I hope?) How much is a one zone redemption from Chicago to Dallas *NOW*?


15,000 points for a roomette. 25,000 for a bedroom.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Under the current AGR system (until 1/24/16) CHI- DAL is a One Zone Roomette Award Trip for 15,000 Points, irregardless of the price! ( 5% rebate if you have the Chase AGR MC, good only until 9/30/15) This is for One or Two passengers!

.


----------



## TinCan782

Here's something that came to mind...

Under the current program, if you are traveling on an AGR redemption and your train is delayed causing you to miss a connection and you are put on the "next" train which only has a lower class accommodation available, you are issued a "$" voucher for the difference, NOT a points refund.

Wondering if the new program will allow a points "refund" to your account for such an involuntary downgrade.


----------



## BCL

NorthShore said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I said 4th biggest, I was talking about the city I live in (Houston), not the one you do.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. Because, you know, "4th city" just isn't funny!
Click to expand...

Maybe not downgraded to "Fourth City", but "Third City" for quite some time.


----------



## abcnews

JoeBas said:


> C855B said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, we are unable to spare the time to take one last points-only LD trip before the new redemption schedule kicks-in. We'll hang on to the points, of course, and use them next year, even if they're worth half what they were.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that you only have to RESERVE by January 24th, not travel - so really you could book now for travel next summer, under the existing rules.
Click to expand...

Exactly, the old program is still in place for some time, and that really is cool. Just try to plan your 2016 trips by late January. I do like the fact that there is a grace period to use the older zone awards. I plan to do two or three trips under the old system in 2016.


----------



## rtabern

Well, last night we booked our "Farewell to Amtrak Guest Rewards Tour" for late April and early May 2016.

We will be doing: ORL-NYP (Silver Meteor #98) --> NYP-NOL (Crescent #19) --> NOL-CHI (City of New Orleans #58) --> CHI-LAX (Southwest Chief #3) --> LAX-SLM (Coast Starlight #14) --> SLM-LAX (Coast Starlight #11) --> LAX-SAN (Pacific Surfliner) ---- all in bedrooms (except the Surfliner which will be BC).

Total cost of the trip would be $7,069.00 if we paid in cash. This cost just 123,500 points under the "old" AGR structure including points back from Chase figured in there. Under the "new" AGR structure this trip would cost a horrific 243,881 points... ALMOST DOUBLE!!!!!!!

It looks like I will still have over 100,000 points left in my account even after this when things transition over. We will be deciding to keep them for whatever minimal travel we will still do with Amtrak -- or transfer them out and use them for hotels or air travel.


----------



## JoeBas

NorthShore said:


> So, you see, it isn't entirely essential to have lots of corridor service or daytrips available to benefit by the minimum point system. Shoot, I WISH I could take Amtrak to NOL or SAS at those prices. I'd be doing it often.


It is if, as was the earlier original postulation, you were using minimums and "cheap point runs" repetitively to fund cross-country travel in a "gamed" way.

Plus, it's not all it's cracked up to be, because remember, it's not even daily service. So, for example, say even if I wanted to go have an all night party in New Orleans some Friday night. Nope, can't do it, Sunset doesn't run east that day. Oh well, I'll go on Saturday night instead then... _NOPE... CAN'T DO IT_, Sunset doesn't run east that day either! (Su, Tu, Th eastbound into NOL, Mo We Sa westbound)

Six hours from Midnight-6AM in San Antonio? With a 5 hour train trip in coach on either end? I guess that sounds like SOMEONE'S idea of fun... but I can assure you at 42 years old it ain't mine. LOL


----------



## Kat314159

JoeBas said:


> Are we very dense? Not particularly. Do we have the 4th highest population, with no other Amtrak stops in the metro area? Yes.
> 
> So from a "Number of people calling Houston their home Amtrak Station" standpoint, what difference does it make if we're stacked vertically, or horizontally?


15,213 of Cincinnati's 2.1 million metro residents get on their 3x a week train in the middle of the night vs 6.3 million in Houston to produce 20,603 boardings in the afternoon/evening. Your boardings seem in line with an area that is indifferent to rail service when push comes to shove(canceled replacement of HOS station with intermodal center, lack of OH 3 C's cooridor service funding).Yes, it would be wonderful if everyone had hub level service for their preferred transit option in their town with a no congestion route to the terminal. The reality is we don't. Feel free to can chew out your legislative reps and tell them to fund trains. I have 8 daily departures instead of just 1 each direction from a LD train because IL and MO legislatures make it so.


----------



## JoeBas

The service levels in HOS are an admitted aside, to the main point that was being refuted (even non-hubs can make point runs), and used to illustrate that most people outside of hubs have little if any practical way to take meaningful advantage of "minimum points" runs to make a substantial difference in their AGR balances.


----------



## NorthShore

BCL said:


> NorthShore said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I said 4th biggest, I was talking about the city I live in (Houston), not the one you do.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. Because, you know, "4th city" just isn't funny!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe not downgraded to "Fourth City", but "Third City" for quite some time.
Click to expand...

As Jack Benny, famously, answered as to why his age so long remained the same, "There's nothing funny about forty!"


----------



## NorthShore

JoeBas said:


> The service levels in HOS are an admitted aside, to the main point that was being refuted (even non-hubs can make point runs), and used to illustrate that most people outside of hubs have little if any practical way to take meaningful advantage of "minimum points" runs to make a substantial difference in their AGR balances.


Oh, I don't think that was my point at all. Rather, the context was, entirely, that maximum point earnings is, most appropriately, rewarded for riding and spending cash directly on Amtrak service and that anything done to encourage such spending (such as the 100 point minimum) is good.


----------



## BCL

NorthShore said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> The service levels in HOS are an admitted aside, to the main point that was being refuted (even non-hubs can make point runs), and used to illustrate that most people outside of hubs have little if any practical way to take meaningful advantage of "minimum points" runs to make a substantial difference in their AGR balances.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I don't think that was my point at all. Rather, the context was, entirely, that maximum point earnings is, most appropriately, rewarded for riding and spending cash directly on Amtrak service and that anything done to encourage such spending (such as the 100 point minimum) is good.
Click to expand...

Sure. I suppose one of the keys is that the people who care enough to do stuff like this often encourage other people to ride Amtrak who otherwise might not. However, I do get that those who often try to maximize points through promotions might not necessarily be the most profitable customers.

A lot of retailers have sale prices that are loss leaders to encourage people to buy something else that's more profitable to he seller. Credit card companies have awards programs, but want their customers to carry balances so they can collect interest. It's kind of a fine line. However, in those categories you typically don't have people convincing others that that particular store or credit card provider are great.


----------



## BCL

Anyone else get the luggage tag? It contains my name/address and says "RIDE ON" on the bottom with the AGR logo.

It came really nicely packaged too, on folded thick printed card stock, a cardboard band with a gold-colored seal saying "THE FUTURE OF AMTRAK Guest Rewards" and a note with my name describing the 2016 version of AGR. The envelope is printed with "Celebrating 15 years". I wonder how much they spent on these.

Frankly I don't know if it really matters, since I'm probably not going to renew Select Plus.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Since I'm a lowly Select (and will not pass that way again) doubt if I'll get anything but the letter, and maybe just a boiler plate E-mail written in Newspeak!

I still have the luggage tags they used to send out up to about 2010, and they're still on my "train" bag and pack!


----------



## pennyk

BCL said:


> Anyone else get the luggage tag? It contains my name/address and says "RIDE ON" on the bottom with the AGR logo.
> 
> It came really nicely packaged too, on folded thick printed card stock, a cardboard band with a gold-colored seal saying "THE FUTURE OF AMTRAK Guest Rewards" and a note with my name describing the 2016 version of AGR. The envelope is printed with "Celebrating 15 years". I wonder how much they spent on these.
> 
> Frankly I don't know if it really matters, since I'm probably not going to renew Select Plus.


I received one a couple of days ago.


----------



## TinCan782

BCL said:


> Anyone else get the luggage tag? It contains my name/address and says "RIDE ON" on the bottom with the AGR logo.
> 
> It came really nicely packaged too, on folded thick printed card stock, a cardboard band with a gold-colored seal saying "THE FUTURE OF AMTRAK Guest Rewards" and a note with my name describing the 2016 version of AGR. The envelope is printed with "Celebrating 15 years". I wonder how much they spent on these.
> 
> Frankly I don't know if it really matters, since I'm probably not going to renew Select Plus.


A luggage tag? Is that supposed to make us feel better?


----------



## JoeBas

FrensicPic said:


> A luggage tag? Is that supposed to make us feel better?


"We know you're not taking your bags anywhere with us anymore, but if you need to know whose bags are in the closet..."... :giggle:


----------



## Rail Freak

Hope they send me SWA Tag!!!!


----------



## BCL

FrensicPic said:


> A luggage tag? Is that supposed to make us feel better?


Yeah - I was trying to be subtle in my snark.

However, it's really nicely done. It was the note behind a die-cut card where they had flaps to hold a braided-wire luggage tag loop, and the tag secured to the card with removable glue (the kind they use for AGR member cards). Then it was custom card stock folded over like a door that would open. On top of that was the sleeve. Those were the entire contents of the envelope.

I'm thinking this isn't going to make up for the loss of the 100-point minimum.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Rail Freak said:


> Hope they send me SWA Tag!!!!


True this! Priceless!


----------



## rrdude

rtabern said:


> Well, last night we booked our "Farewell to Amtrak Guest Rewards Tour" for late April and early May 2016.
> 
> We will be doing: ORL-NYP (Silver Meteor #98) --> NYP-NOL (Crescent #19) --> NOL-CHI (City of New Orleans #58) --> CHI-LAX (Southwest Chief #3) --> LAX-SLM (Coast Starlight #14) --> SLM-LAX (Coast Starlight #11) --> LAX-SAN (Pacific Surfliner) ---- all in bedrooms (except the Surfliner which will be BC).
> 
> Total cost of the trip would be $7,069.00 if we paid in cash. This cost just 123,500 points under the "old" AGR structure including points back from Chase figured in there. Under the "new" AGR structure this trip would cost a horrific 243,881 points... ALMOST DOUBLE!!!!!!!
> 
> It looks like I will still have over 100,000 points left in my account even after this when things transition over. We will be deciding to keep them for whatever minimal travel we will still do with Amtrak -- or transfer them out and use them for hotels or air travel.


Impressive! Are you laying over in any cities, or riding the "tin can" straight thru?


----------



## City of Miami

Sorry if this row has been plowed before....

Do we have a theory about the implications of "single leg ticket price" in the 2016 Points Estimator? Is 'single leg' just a limitation of this sneak preview software? Does it mean that AGR2 will not book multi-leg trips, i.e. no guaranteed connections for AGR? Does it mean that train changes must be booked separately, additively?

Also I wonder what happened to the talking point that (all) AGR trips will be bookable online.


----------



## Bruce-C

Do we have a theory about the implications of "single leg ticket price" in the 2016 Points Estimator?

I am taking it for what it states. Points needed to pay for a multi-leg trip will be estimated as individual legs. For instance, take a C to C trip LAX-NYP via CS, EB, LSL. Points pricing estimate would be calculated on the actual charges for leg #1 CS (via LAX-PDX), leg#2 EB (PDX-CHI) and leg #3 LSL (CHI-NYP). Figure the published cost of each individual leg and your total will be the amount used for a points estimate. Yep! It's a few more bucks!!!


----------



## jis

The itinerary price quoted is partitioned out among each leg based on type of service etc. The right multiplier will be applied to each leg's allocated cost based on the type of service and the sum will be the total points cost. So for example if you do a trip that is on the Cap from CHI to WAS and then on Regional BC to NYP, and then Acela to BOS, the total cost will be broken down in terms of the component allocated to each leg, and the appropriate multiplier depending on the type of service applied to the corresponding leg cost and the sum of all that will be the total points cost.

By the way, this is similar to how earned points are computed today, of course using the current earnings algorith with the minimum points per leg etc..

Of course if you want a definitive answer on this ask the question on FlyerTalk's Amtrak forum and you can get the answer from the proverbial horse's mouth AGR Insider.


----------



## rtabern

Going to fly from MKE to Orlando and layover there a day to ride the monorails around a bit before #98 takes off... will have a night and the next morning in New Orleans... and then yeah, pretty much riding the train the rest of the way. We were originally planning to do a Grand Canyon/Arches/Mesa Verde trip in Spring 2016, but once saw points for pretty much any long distance western route in a bedroom was now going to cost as much as double, even triple, what it does now, and knowing those park will always be there (hopefully), we decided to postpone that and then do this Amtrak all-bedroom trip. Basically, 7 nights on the train in bedrooms, 1 night off the train in ORL, 1 night off the train in NOL, and 1 night off the train in LAX.



rrdude said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, last night we booked our "Farewell to Amtrak Guest Rewards Tour" for late April and early May 2016.
> 
> We will be doing: ORL-NYP (Silver Meteor #98) --> NYP-NOL (Crescent #19) --> NOL-CHI (City of New Orleans #58) --> CHI-LAX (Southwest Chief #3) --> LAX-SLM (Coast Starlight #14) --> SLM-LAX (Coast Starlight #11) --> LAX-SAN (Pacific Surfliner) ---- all in bedrooms (except the Surfliner which will be BC).
> 
> Total cost of the trip would be $7,069.00 if we paid in cash. This cost just 123,500 points under the "old" AGR structure including points back from Chase figured in there. Under the "new" AGR structure this trip would cost a horrific 243,881 points... ALMOST DOUBLE!!!!!!!
> 
> It looks like I will still have over 100,000 points left in my account even after this when things transition over. We will be deciding to keep them for whatever minimal travel we will still do with Amtrak -- or transfer them out and use them for hotels or air travel.
> 
> 
> 
> Impressive! Are you laying over in any cities, or riding the "tin can" straight thru?
Click to expand...


----------



## jis

Let me know when you are in Orlando. I'll be happy to ride around on the monorails with you, unless of course you'd rather do it just by yourself.  We could possibly rope in Penny too.


----------



## Bob Dylan

No need to rent a car or use taxis or Uber/Lfyt in ORL!

There's a great Free Limo Service that will pick you up @ the Station in a Honda and take you to the best place to eat in ORL, Burger King!( includes Free Yoga Lessons!)

The name is Penny's Limos! Send her a PM! LOL.


----------



## jis

Honestly, I'll be willing to pick you up in a Prius and take you to a much classier place than Burger King, and even drag Penny along


----------



## rtabern

Sounds fun... late April.  PM me when we get closer!!!


----------



## dlagrua

MODERATOR NOTE: This was started as a new topic but was merged into the existing AGR 2.0 thread.

I started this thread so that members may give their opinions on what they see happening in the aftermath of th AGR program changes. There will be negative results but they may be some positive results as well.

Here is how I view it.:

1. Amtrak will disincentivize some members to use the program and they may drop out.

2. Lower ridership (less AGR trips) may result, but mostly on LD routes. AGR passenger do account for a portion of the LD ridership.

3. An increase in availablity for sleepers and a possible downward slide in bucket fares. When we travel, we regularly encounter rail passengers in the sleepers who use AGR points. The new AGR program will cut off many of these trips and this may free up sleeper space, If demand declines so may prices.

4.The Viewliner sleepers coming on board In 2016? More sleeper availability and the effect..

In consideration of the above, its really impossible to predict what will happen, but we can have an opinion and it may be correct.

How do you see it all unfolding? .

.


----------



## benale

If we want to plan a cross country trip and book after the new system is in place, how do we determine the price for two people in a roomette? Does the second person pay for the coach fare and the room is free? Using the point calculator for two people from Harrisburg to Los Angeles is a bit confusing. We want coach to Chicago and a sleeper on The Southwest Chief. Using their single legs options, this means I have to type the info in six times?(Har-Pit, Pit-Chi, Chi-Lax)


----------



## Ryan

Until the new booking system is live, just check what the cost in dollars is on the website and convert that dollar value to points.


----------



## PRR 60

benale said:


> If we want to plan a cross country trip and book after the new system is in place, how do we determine the price for two people in a roomette? Does the second person pay for the coach fare and the room is free? Using the point calculator for two people from Harrisburg to Los Angeles is a bit confusing. We want coach to Chicago and a sleeper on The Southwest Chief. Using their single legs options, this means I have to type the info in six times?(Har-Pit, Pit-Chi, Chi-Lax)


Use Amtrak.com to pull of the price of the trip desired: Harrisburg to Los Angeles via Pittsburgh and Chicago, 2 adults, roomette (or bedroom, if desired). Note the total cost. Multiply the cost in dollars by 34.5. That is the AGR redemption cost in points under the new program. Until January 24, it is hypothetical. Since the cost of the trip in dollars can change between now than then, the cost in points will similarly change and is not locked-in until the trip is booked.


----------



## crescent2

Diagrua, I agree with your assessment, although I'm not sure the impact will be significant enough to reduce fares.

As one who lives far from any Amtrak route except the Crescent, the new program will not work well for most of my travel needs. The long distance trips I'd like to take will require far more points than I'll ever be able to acquire again, and I'm not willing to pay thousands of dollars in fares. Currently I have 46,000+ points, which I need to use for some kind of CZ trip while the current rules are in effect. That will probably be my last long distance overnight trip. *sigh* However, it may be more feasible under the new system to use points for trips ATN-NOL. I always pay for those because fares are too low to be a good use of precious AGR points under the current system. (I have not used the Points Estimator, so this is just an assumption on my part.) Overall, the program changes affect me negatively.

The current AGR zone program is extremely generous, imo, for many long distance trips, so it's not surprising Amtrak is changing that. I'm disappointed but understand why they would do so. What I don't like about it is the fact that saver fares and senior or other discounts cannot be used as the price basis for the points required for an award. And it's absurd that while Business Class and Acela earn bonus points, sleeper fares do not. The program seems biased against long distance train travel, and the points required for award trips are based on the fare price, "except when they're not." :angry2:

While I don't think the immediate impact on Amtrak will be large, I view these changes as one more factor in the "death by a thousand cuts" trend against long distance trains.


----------



## tonys96

crescent2 said:


> Diagrua, I agree with your assessment, although I'm not sure the impact will be significant enough to reduce fares.
> 
> As one who lives far from any Amtrak route except the Crescent, the new program will not work well for most of my travel needs. The long distance trips I'd like to take will require far more points than I'll ever be able to acquire again, and I'm not willing to pay thousands of dollars in fares. Currently I have 46,000+ points, which I need to use for some kind of CZ trip while the current rules are in effect. That will probably be my last long distance overnight trip. *sigh* However, it may be more feasible under the new system to use points for trips ATN-NOL. I always pay for those because fares are too low to be a good use of precious AGR points under the current system. (I have not used the Points Estimator, so this is just an assumption on my part.) Overall, the program changes affect me negatively.
> 
> The current AGR zone program is extremely generous, imo, for many long distance trips, so it's not surprising Amtrak is changing that. I'm disappointed but understand why they would do so. What I don't like about it is the fact that saver fares and senior or other discounts cannot be used as the price basis for the points required for an award. And it's absurd that while Business Class and Acela earn bonus points, sleeper fares do not. The program seems biased against long distance train travel, and the points required for award trips are based on the fare price, "except when they're not." :angry2:
> 
> While I don't think the immediate impact on Amtrak will be large, I view these changes as one more factor in the "death by a thousand cuts" trend against long distance trains.


Ditto


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

dlagrua said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: This was started as a new topic but was merged into the existing AGR 2.0 thread.
> 
> I started this thread so that members may give their opinions on what they see happening in the aftermath of th AGR program changes. There will be negative results but they may be some positive results as well.
> 
> Here is how I view it.:
> 
> 1. Amtrak will disincentivize some members to use the program and they may drop out.
> 
> 2. Lower ridership (less AGR trips) may result, but mostly on LD routes. AGR passenger do account for a portion of the LD ridership.
> 
> 3. An increase in availablity for sleepers and a possible downward slide in bucket fares. When we travel, we regularly encounter rail passengers in the sleepers who use AGR points. The new AGR program will cut off many of these trips and this may free up sleeper space, If demand declines so may prices.
> 
> 4.The Viewliner sleepers coming on board In 2016? More sleeper availability and the effect..
> 
> In consideration of the above, its really impossible to predict what will happen, but we can have an opinion and it may be correct.
> 
> How do you see it all unfolding? .
> 
> .


I have traveled numerous Sleeper segs on AGR during so-called peak periods and have *NEVER* seen a train with Sleepers Sold Out. Now with a significant drop in AGR pax coming, it will be interesting to see just how empty the Sleepers get.

Of course with the inept management now running Amtrak they will probably respond to this by *RAISING* Sleeper fares to increase revenue.


----------



## SarahZ

OlympianHiawatha said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> MODERATOR NOTE: This was started as a new topic but was merged into the existing AGR 2.0 thread.
> 
> I started this thread so that members may give their opinions on what they see happening in the aftermath of th AGR program changes. There will be negative results but they may be some positive results as well.
> 
> Here is how I view it.:
> 
> 1. Amtrak will disincentivize some members to use the program and they may drop out.
> 
> 2. Lower ridership (less AGR trips) may result, but mostly on LD routes. AGR passenger do account for a portion of the LD ridership.
> 
> 3. An increase in availablity for sleepers and a possible downward slide in bucket fares. When we travel, we regularly encounter rail passengers in the sleepers who use AGR points. The new AGR program will cut off many of these trips and this may free up sleeper space, If demand declines so may prices.
> 
> 4.The Viewliner sleepers coming on board In 2016? More sleeper availability and the effect..
> 
> In consideration of the above, its really impossible to predict what will happen, but we can have an opinion and it may be correct.
> 
> How do you see it all unfolding? .
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> I have traveled numerous Sleeper segs on AGR during so-called peak periods and have *NEVER* seen a train with Sleepers Sold Out. Now with a significant drop in AGR pax coming, it will be interesting to see just how empty the Sleepers get.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I've been on several trains with sold-out sleepers. A few of those trains were completely sold-out (sleepers and coach).


----------



## jis

Yeah, I have been on plenty of trains with Sleepers sold out. I guess it must be more common in the east in the single level cars territory, even though the usual sleeper fares around here are somewhere between stratospheric and astronomical. Been on many fully sold out Auto Train runs too.


----------



## SarahZ

jis said:


> Yeah, I have been on plenty of trains with Sleepers sold out. I guess it must be more common in the east in the single level cars territory, even though the usual sleeper fares around here are somewhere between stratospheric and astronomical. Been on many fully sold out Auto Train runs too.


In my case, it was the Southwest Chief (in addition to the eastern trains), but that doesn't surprise me, considering it serves Chicago, ABQ, and L.A.


----------



## Rail Freak

OlympianHiawatha said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> MODERATOR NOTE: This was started as a new topic but was merged into the existing AGR 2.0 thread.
> 
> I started this thread so that members may give their opinions on what they see happening in the aftermath of th AGR program changes. There will be negative results but they may be some positive results as well.
> 
> Here is how I view it.:
> 
> 1. Amtrak will disincentivize some members to use the program and they may drop out.
> 
> 2. Lower ridership (less AGR trips) may result, but mostly on LD routes. AGR passenger do account for a portion of the LD ridership.
> 
> 3. An increase in availablity for sleepers and a possible downward slide in bucket fares. When we travel, we regularly encounter rail passengers in the sleepers who use AGR points. The new AGR program will cut off many of these trips and this may free up sleeper space, If demand declines so may prices.
> 
> 4.The Viewliner sleepers coming on board In 2016? More sleeper availability and the effect..
> 
> In consideration of the above, its really impossible to predict what will happen, but we can have an opinion and it may be correct.
> 
> How do you see it all unfolding? .
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> I have traveled numerous Sleeper segs on AGR during so-called peak periods and have *NEVER* seen a train with Sleepers Sold Out. Now with a significant drop in AGR pax coming, it will be interesting to see just how empty the Sleepers get.
> 
> Of course with the inept management now running Amtrak they will probably respond to this by *RAISING* Sleeper fares to increase revenue.
Click to expand...

Of course, which, in turn will increase Pt. costs!!!


----------



## jis

If indeed raising Sleeper fares actually does increase net revenue, how does that make the management inept?


----------



## SarahZ

jis said:


> If indeed raising Sleeper fares actually does increase net revenue, how does that make the management inept?



Because we want amenities and new cars and more routes, but we don't want to pay for it.

Duh.


----------



## PaulM

SarahZ said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If indeed raising Sleeper fares actually does increase net revenue, how does that make the management inept?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because we want amenities and new cars and more routes, but we don't want to pay for it.
> 
> Duh.
Click to expand...

Come on! The unstated premises in the "inept management" post was that raising prices will decrease demand and that devaluing AGR points will significantly reduce sleeper usage so that they won't fill up as often. So even if higher prices on a smaller volume increases net revenue, that doesn't imply that revenue could be even higher with lower prices and higher volume, given the extra inventory. Duh. 

Incidentally, I don't necessarily agree with the premise of high AGR usage of sleepers. It's been my experience, that very few passenger I talk to in the dining car have even heard of AGR, although I can't speak for NE to FLA trains.


----------



## Bob Dylan

According to what I've been told by "in the know" Amtrak insiders, AGR members actually make up a minute % of the LD Sleeper occupancy.

Overwhelmingly, the Redemptions are for Acelas and Business Class trips on the Corridors!

Same thing for AU , less than 1% of the AGR Membership are AU Members.

"Do the math!" (as W used to say, although he couldn't)

Basically, what we think doesn't matter to AGR or Amtrak! There's a reason that AGR Insider is on Flyer Talk and not other Rail Forums!

Business Travelers and Expense Account road warriors on the NEC are what matters most to AGR and Amtrak!

Except for the Autotrain, most Amtrak suits don't give LD Routes and passengers any thought except as to how they can cut costs and raise more revenue!

You could look it up, its happening now!


----------



## willem

> I have traveled numerous Sleeper segs on AGR during so-called peak periods and have *NEVER* seen a train with Sleepers Sold Out.


As I understand the definition, a "sold out sleeper" (or coach) could have empty compartments (or seats). It's sold out because there are reasonable city pairs, perhaps the end points, between which no compartment (or seat) is empty for the full distance.

Is that other peoples' understanding?


----------



## iggy

"It was nice to have the free lounge access with Select Plus to have an actual clean bathroom at Union Station in Chicago"

And because one person ranted and raved until they caved and did right thing - you still can have that access easily. Just book a business class ticket. Or pay for access to new Legacy Club. Chicago as far as my conversation went with a Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee member recently in Met Lounge - is only lounge in system that allows BC access. This lead should be implemented elsewhere. I've argued for service level continuity between Chicago and St Louis - same privilege for BC to access First Class Lounge in Gateway Station.

100 point minimum will hurt those of us trying to reach status. Fact that bonuses have never been TQP and still won't be - doesn't help resolve problem of how rest of country can get status that is easily obtained out East - even though we are just as loyal of a customer. I should make SELECT this year - but even with Acela ride if I can - I'll be a bit to far from SELECT+ this year.

Not going to win any fans with my comment - rarely do. But for many of us it's hard to feel sorry for those of you who have collected 100,000's of points. Granted you have spent to earn them in almost all cases. But some of us haven't had the benefit of rewards credit card - we have earned our points by putting in seat time. Even with new system - although greatly devalued - those of you with stockpiles will get plenty of free travel opportunities. While the rest of us will have little to no chance of land cruises of old.

For those who have been at this for years - you had a great run - got to game the system for a long time. Appreciate that fact and realize that if you want Amtrak to have a chance at being here years down road - it was overdue for them to make this move. Although some tweaking needs done - listening to some reasonable feedback that has been provided here and other places.

"Anyone else get the luggage tag? It contains my name/address and says "RIDE ON" on the bottom with the AGR logo."

Nice thought = they must have listened to forum feedback - that has been suggested here more than once. Only got one tag - most of us travel with more baggage than that. Tag seemed flimsy and I doubt it will hold up over time.

Proof of delivery

https://twitter.com/Iggy/status/638887289503019008


----------



## Ispolkom

I really have to agree with iggy. As someone who has spent hundreds of thousands of AGR points in the last six years, I am just grateful that the gravy train lasted this long. I'm also pleased that AGR has given us a long grace period to use up our points. Every rewards program devalues, but many devalue with little (Hilton) or no (Wyndham Rewards) warning. In comparison, AGR is a class act.

Even though I have generally spent more than 20 nights per year in sleepers, I have always accepted that I was little more than a freeloader, extracting maximum value for the little I contributed. I never made points runs, but only because I couldn't,living in Minnesota. Instead, I manipulated credit cards, which probably gave just as little revenue to Amtrak. Even if I was a frequent traveler I certainly wasn't one of their best customers.

With the new program, the cost of a sleeper to me goes up, and I am sure that I will ride less.

That's natural.

I hope that the new AGR program does well for Amtrak. It seems to me that it's widening the focus from just the NEC to other high-frequency corridors, which seems smart. It's not to my benefit, but I was never a high-value customer. It might not seem fair, but it's just business.


----------



## Eric S

I believe every Metropolitan Lounge allows Business Class passengers access.


----------



## iggy

"I believe every Metropolitan Lounge allows Business Class passengers access."

Nope does NOT!! I can give you a quick example from experience. Washington DC does not allow Acela BC ( rode December 2014 no lounge access for any BC ) or Regional BC access to lounge. As far as I am aware New York Penn does not either. Unless something has changed in the past 6 months.

Again my conversation with Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee member in Chicago Met Lounge took place last week. So I highly doubt anything has changed. Whether you or anyone else wants to believe my statement matters little to me. But rest assured Chicago Metropolitan Lounge Union Station access was a recent change in past few years. As a long time passenger through that station I can assure you again BC lounge access was NOT allowed until just a few years ago. Access was hard fought and still underused by many Illinois Midwest BC riders - some who still aren't aware the perk exist for them.

If for some reason your just hating on the truth from messenger. You can search forum threads here to back up everything I have stated.


----------



## Ryan

Washington DC has a Club Acela, not a Met Lounge. Same for New York.

I don't think that BC access to the Met Lounge in CHI being (somewhat) new is in question, everyone that's been around for more than a year or so knows that to be the case.

From the source:



> ClubAcela, Metropolitan Lounge and First Class Lounge
> 
> Amtrak offers several types of private lounges for Acela Express First Class passengers, sleeping car passengers, Amtrak Guest Rewards Select Plus, Select Executive members, United Club Members and private car owners.
> 
> Who is Eligible for Access?
> 
> Amtrak Guest Rewards members with a valid Select Plus or Select Executive member card.
> Amtrak passengers with a same-day ticket (departing) or ticket receipt (arriving) in First Class or sleeping car accommodations.
> Complimentary ClubAcela Single-Day Pass holders. Same-day travel ticket not needed.
> Private car owners/lessee and party between time of arrival and departure specified in the reservation. Provide reservation number to Club representative upon entry.
> United Club Members with a valid United Club Card are entitled to access ClubAcela locations and may bring in two guests or their spouses and children under the age of 21. United Global First or United BusinessFirst passengers with a flight coupon or boarding pass with a same-day, international segment in United Global First or United BusinessFirst are also entitled to ClubAcela access.
> ClubAcela
> 
> ClubAcela provides a quiet, refined atmosphere where passengers may wait for their trains or unwind after detraining. ClubAcela features include:
> 
> Comfortable, quiet lounge seating
> Complimentary non-alcoholic beverages and snacks
> Internet access
> Free local phone calls
> Fax and photocopy service
> Newspapers and periodicals
> Television
> Attendants to assist with reservation, ticketing and local entertainment needs
> Features may vary by location
> ClubAcela lounges are located in the following stations:
> 
> Boston - South Station (5:30 am - 9:30 pm daily)
> New York - Penn Station (5:15 am - 9:30 pm Mon - Fri; 7 am - 9 pm Sat - Sun)
> Philadelphia - 30th Street Station (6 am - 9 pm daily)
> Washington, DC - Union Station (4:45 am - 10 pm Mon - Fri; 5 am - 10 pm Sat - Sun)
> 
> *Metropolitan Lounge*
> 
> Similar to ClubAcela, Metropolitan Lounges are available to sleeping car passengers, *business class passengers with the same day travel ticket (departure or arrival) *and Amtrak Guest Rewards Select Plus or Select Executive members, and include:
> 
> Comfortable, quiet lounge seating
> Complimentary non-alcoholic beverages and snacks
> Attendants to assist with reservation, ticketing and local entertainment needs
> Internet access
> Metropolitan Lounges are located in the following stations:
> 
> Chicago - Union Station
> Los Angeles - Union Station
> Portland, OR - Union Station
> First Class Lounge
> 
> Unattended, separate sleeping car passenger and Amtrak Guest Rewards Select Plus or Select Executive member waiting rooms are available in the following stations:
> 
> St. Paul/Minneapolis
> St. Louis
> New Orleans
> Raleigh


----------



## PRR 60

iggy said:


> "I believe every Metropolitan Lounge allows Business Class passengers access."
> 
> Nope does NOT!! I can give you a quick example from experience. Washington DC does not allow Acela BC ( rode December 2014 no lounge access for any BC ) or Regional BC access to lounge. As far as I am aware New York Penn does not either. Unless something has changed in the past 6 months.
> 
> Again my conversation with Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee member in Chicago Met Lounge took place last week. So I highly doubt anything has changed. Whether you or anyone else wants to believe my statement matters little to me. But rest assured Chicago Metropolitan Lounge Union Station access was a recent change in past few years. As a long time passenger through that station I can assure you again BC lounge access was NOT allowed until just a few years ago. Access was hard fought and still underused by many Illinois Midwest BC riders - some who still aren't aware the perk exist for them.
> 
> If for some reason your just hating on the truth from messenger. You can search forum threads here to back up everything I have stated.


As mentioned above, Amtrak has different brands of lounges. The Club Acela's in the northeast (Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Washington) require Acela First Class or Sleeper for admission on a ticket alone. A Business Class ticket will not get you into a Club Acela. The Metropolitan Lounges (Chicago, Portland OR, Los Angeles) permit access with a Sleeper ticket or a Business Class ticket.


----------



## Eric S

That was my point - Metropolitan Lounges permit access to Business Class passengers. I was not trying to claim that Club Acelas do.

I'm aware that this is a relatively recent change.


----------



## Ryan

Yeah, I think everyone here but iggy is on the same page.


----------



## PPorro

SarahZ said:


> PPorro said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is going to be real simple (I hope?) How much is a one zone redemption from Chicago to Dallas *NOW*?
> 
> 
> 
> 15,000 points for a roomette. 25,000 for a bedroom.
Click to expand...

Thank you and Jimhudson also. For some reason it was asking me to make the reservation, in order to see how many points. I understand the second person rides for a coach seat - that's a nice deal.

I'm looking at different ways to make a rail vacation trip and not cover the same tracks twice. Ca Zephyr out to Denver, AGR points coach to Elko... (stay the weekend) pay cash for a ticket to Reno Monday one day or until the next train... (using my AGR card of course!) Coast Starlighter up and Empire Builder back to Chicago = two zones. In theory 45,000 points round trip + plus whatever points for the Denver to Elko segment, which should just about wipe out all my points.

I got the card notice from Chase. Too bad, I like them. Now we all watch and see if the points per dollar change or what's next? If it's not as favorable, I'll drop the card and say Thank You, it was fun.

Only time I've been unable to book a Roomette - in many test runs - has been holiday travel. The March Madness trip for the last few years, I have been able to get whatever I wanted on the Zephyr if I leave on a Tuesday. Must be at the casino by Thursday morning. 

I don't know how many sleeper cars Amtrak has, but if I was running the railroad (ha ha aren't we all?) On a holiday weekend I'd have every working sleeper on the long routes, in service. Turning away customers is sending them to other transportation, losing them forever in some cases. Also make money when there's a high demand is easy, no brainer.

The theory that raising prices is good for business, eludes me. If the train isn't sold out, you are losing money. Trying to make it up by charging more, just drives away more customers and it's a spiral of financial doom. Amtrak ticket pricing has always been a mystery. Sell at one price, when it gets closer to full, raise prices and the last sleeper goes up to absurd.

But if it's not sold and the train is on the road, then drop the price again? In other words, if we can't get an exorbitant fee, we'll sell the room at a steep discount. ؟ Make up the money on vloume, not outrageous pricing that makes rail travel unattractive.

Why not one price level that's attractive enough to encourage people to travel in relaxation and comfort?



PRR 60 said:


> Use Amtrak.com to pull of the price of the trip desired: Harrisburg to Los Angeles via Pittsburgh and Chicago, 2 adults, roomette (or bedroom, if desired). Note the total cost. Multiply the cost in dollars by 34.5. That is the AGR redemption cost in points under the new program. Until January 24, it is hypothetical. Since the cost of the trip in dollars can change between now than then, the cost in points will similarly change and is not locked-in until the trip is booked.


Good to have working information to compare.

Chicago - Denver 15,000 points or new program Chicago - Denver 21,200 points. OK, better book now.


----------



## Anderson

As I've noted a few times, there's one issue (the Marketing gripe aside) that I don't think AGR can get around, and that's the program becoming even more NEC-centric than it has been in the past. Setting aside cherry-picked city pairs (CHI-WAS on the Cap[1], for example, or WAS-NOL on the Crescent[2]), there are a lot more places that lose out under the switch than gain. You also have a net loss insofar as BC/FC tickets get a bonus but sleeper pax don't (e.g. Select Executive is about $3350 cheaper if you only travel in Acela First than if you travel in a sleeper most of the time).

[1] The Cap has had fares sandbagged because of its connecting role between the Western LD trains and the Silvers. You can only smack someone but _so_ hard on a connecting trip, and a ton of the Cap's reservations connect to other, often higher-yield, routes.

[2] The Crescent south of Atlanta has been the subject of some discussion on here; my understanding is that for some time, there's been a "bug" that a WAS-ATL trip costs more than WAS-NOL because Amtrak's yield management folks were directed to balance load factors (e.g. butts in seats) against yield factors (e.g. revenue). This led to the Anniston loophole (Anniston, AL being the station after Atlanta on the Crescent...and almost always substantially cheaper to book than Atlanta).


----------



## dlagrua

After all is said and done, the bigger question is if AGR 2.0 will make more money for Amtrak or end up losing money for Amtrak?

A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points. This results in less revenue than if the sleepers were sold as ticket fares, but combined with regular ticket sales the sleepers on LD trains tcurrently end to fill up. Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip. As a result less passengers will be using AGR points to book their trip and the availability of sleepers to be sold rises.

By eliminating many of the AGR trips will the sleepers still sell out at full price or will a portion remain unsold? Will the sleeper ticket prices decline a bit due to the increased availability, stay the same, or go up?

I choose to believe that the new AGR system may not increase sleeper ticket revenue as much as Amtrak believes it will, if at all..


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

I am worried about the catch-all wording that my points will not expire as long as I have an open AGR Credit Card account. Well, my current account is being closed at the end of this month (September), and no word yet on any replacement card.

Will this mean that come October 1, all my points could instantly expire under the no open account clause?


----------



## TinCan782

As I understand the new program, almost any points activity will reset the 36 month clock. Used to be a paid trip was the only way. I'm not particularly concerned about a "gap" between the AGR credit card availability.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I am worried about the catch-all wording that my points will not expire as long as I have an open AGR Credit Card account. Well, my current account is being closed at the end of this month (September), and no word yet on any replacement card.
> 
> Will this mean that come October 1, all my points could instantly expire under the no open account clause?


As per what AGRInsider posted on FlyerTalk, no points will expire between now and 24th of January when AGR 2.0 goes into effect. So you can relax a bit on that issue.


----------



## rrdude

dlagrua said:


> After all is said and done, the bigger question is if AGR 2.0 will make more money for Amtrak or end up losing money for Amtrak?
> 
> A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points. This results in less revenue than if the sleepers were sold as ticket fares, but combined with regular ticket sales the sleepers on LD trains tcurrently end to fill up. Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip. As a result less passengers will be using AGR points to book their trip and the availability of sleepers to be sold rises.
> 
> By eliminating many of the AGR trips will the sleepers still sell out at full price or will a portion remain unsold? Will the sleeper ticket prices decline a bit due to the increased availability, stay the same, or go up?
> 
> I choose to believe that the new AGR system may not increase sleeper ticket revenue as much as Amtrak believes it will, if at all..


Where do you get your information that a "...'Good Portion' of the sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR Points" ?

And what defines a "Good Portion"? 5%, 10%, 20%?

I would be_* very surprised *_ if the AGR-paid sleepers were over 5%, but hey, I'm wrong more often than I'm correct.


----------



## dlagrua

rrdude said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> After all is said and done, the bigger question is if AGR 2.0 will make more money for Amtrak or end up losing money for Amtrak?
> 
> A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points. This results in less revenue than if the sleepers were sold as ticket fares, but combined with regular ticket sales the sleepers on LD trains tcurrently end to fill up. Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip. As a result less passengers will be using AGR points to book their trip and the availability of sleepers to be sold rises.
> 
> By eliminating many of the AGR trips will the sleepers still sell out at full price or will a portion remain unsold? Will the sleeper ticket prices decline a bit due to the increased availability, stay the same, or go up?
> 
> I choose to believe that the new AGR system may not increase sleeper ticket revenue as much as Amtrak believes it will, if at all..
> 
> 
> 
> Where do you get your information that a "...'Good Portion' of the sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR Points" ?
> 
> And what defines a "Good Portion"? 5%, 10%, 20%?
> 
> I would be_* very surprised *_ if the AGR-paid sleepers were over 5%, but hey, I'm wrong more often than I'm correct.
Click to expand...

Applying logic; if only an insignificant number of passengers were using AGR points to book sleepers, then why would Amtrak be so concerned as to revamp the program? The AGR program is massive with thousands of members, it is being used and Amtrak management must be taking notice of it. I don't have exact numbers to share but we always meet other passengers in the sleepers traveling on AGR Guest Reward points. Not a realistic barometer of usage but who has the exact number??

My guestimate is that up to 25% of the sleepers are booked using AGR points. In view of the amount whatever it is, Amtrak with AGR 2.0 must view AGR usage as an opportunity to increase revenue.


----------



## Bob Dylan

AGR is a Profit Center for Amtrak, and it's anticipated that the New AGR2.0 will result in a substantial increase in revenue.

The same situation applies to the New BOA Credit Card(S), both parties expect to profit from this relationship!

As was said, AGR has beaucoup members, most of whom ride on the NEC and other Corridors. I have heard that AU Members are less than 1% of AGR's Membership, so they really won't miss us if we quit riding in the Sleepers which are priced extremely High and that only Rich people can afford to pay for.

I'm guessing lots of us,including me, if we want to continue to ride LD Trains, will be riding on Coach Awards or Paid Coach Tickets and taking Shorter trips due to the High Prices and the devaluation of points, both earned and redeemed!. YMMV

As for AGR Members riding in Sleepers, it has been my expierence from riding on LD Trains hundreds of times since I became an AGR Member, that the Overwhelming Majority of People in the Sleepers were on PAID Reservations!

I have no stats either, they are closely held , which is as it should be!


----------



## jis

dlagrua said:


> Applying logic; if only an insignificant number of passengers were using AGR points to book sleepers, then why would Amtrak be so concerned as to revamp the program? The AGR program is massive with thousands of members, it is being used and Amtrak management must be taking notice of it. I don't have exact numbers to share but we always meet other passengers in the sleepers traveling on AGR Guest Reward points. Not a realistic barometer of usage but who has the exact number??
> 
> My guestimate is that up to 25% of the sleepers are booked using AGR points. In view of the amount whatever it is, Amtrak with AGR 2.0 must view AGR usage as an opportunity to increase revenue.


So at best it is a hypothesis that needs to be validated, and a gusstimate is not a validation.

The primary goal of AGR 2.0 is to make AGR more attractive for corridor customers. This has been openly stated by Amtrak, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve that. And that is precisely what it achieves. Whatever happens to LD Sleeper passengers is entirely incidental to that goal and if any significant advantages follow, that is the icing on the cake. OTOH if any significant disadvantages follow I am sure corrective measures will be taken.

My guess though is that getting the same Sleeper accommodation to turn over multiple times on relatively lower fare segments rather than them being occupied the entire length by a AGR redemption can be nothing but good from a revenue perspective, provided there is enough demand of that sort. That is mainly because multiple short segment fares usually add up to something more than a single long segment fare which makes both AGR redemption for them attractive in the new scheme, and opens up inventory for a broader group of passengers. Now who knows whether that potential set of passengers exists or not. We'll see I suppose.


----------



## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points.


[citation needed]



dlagrua said:


> Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip.


In some cases yes, in others not.


----------



## Ispolkom

jimhudson said:


> As for AGR Members riding in Sleepers, it has been my expierence from riding on LD Trains hundreds of times since I became an AGR Member, that the Overwhelming Majority of People in the Sleepers were on PAID Reservations!


I've talked up AGR to fellow sleeper passengers dozens of times at shared meals in the dining car. Most of my fellow diners didn't belong to AGR, and perishingly few were on award trips.



jis said:


> The primary goal of AGR 2.0 is to make AGR more attractive for corridor customers. This has been openly stated by Amtrak, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve that. And that is precisely what it achieves. Whatever happens to LD Sleeper passengers is entirely incidental to that goal and if any significant advantages follow, that is the icing on the cake.


Quoted for truth. The fact that my ox is getting gored isn't any reason to start assuming that it's a very important ox.


----------



## Kat314159

jis said:


> The primary goal of AGR 2.0 is to make AGR more attractive for corridor customers. This has been openly stated by Amtrak, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve that. And that is precisely what it achieves. Whatever happens to LD Sleeper passengers is entirely incidental to that goal and if any significant advantages follow, that is the icing on the cake. OTOH if any significant disadvantages follow I am sure corrective measures will be taken.


At least on my cooridor they are doing a mediocre at best job of this (I know I don't count I'm not NEC).

Select+ Status under old AGR: 50 Stl-CHI round trips. Every 16th ride is free (1500pts special route)

New AGR($27 ticket which is the price I most often pay for the RT): 93 Round Trips every 17.25th ride is free (932 pt ticket)

Yes this is not as dramatic as the devaluation on some of the sleepers. However, if my happy buns are warming a seat through the IL farm fields nearly every weekend of the year that *should* be enough to get me a sodapop and a lounge seat at the stations. Oh well it was nice while it lasted.


----------



## Manny T

What has been argued above, that "a good [although never defined] portion of sleeper passengers pay for their tickets with AGR points," would not seem to fit well with the following statistics in a recent article (arguing in favor of US passenger rail) in the American Conservative, cited on another thread:

"Amtrak makes a lot more money from sleeping cars than from coaches: by its own calculations, sleeping car passengers account for just 15 percent of long-distance passengers but contribute 36 percent of total revenue. Amtrak’s average yield per mile for coach passengers is 14.2 cents; for sleeping car passengers, 27.2 cents."

To me it would seem that paying passengers must make up a majority of sleeping car pax.

Here is the full article: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/dont-railroad-amtrak/


----------



## AmtrakBlue

In case anyone did not see the other thread, you may want to hold off on applying online as it seems the computer is denying most, if not all, applications.


----------



## pennyk

MODERATOR NOTE: many comments that related to the new credit card that were posted in this thread have been moved to the the AGR Master Card thread.


----------



## oregon pioneer

pennyk said:


> MODERATOR NOTE: many comments that related to the new credit card that were posted in this thread have been moved to the the AGR Master Card thread.


Could you please post a link to that thread? For some reason it is not showing up on my "New Content" page. I know I saw it somewhere, but I can't find it now.

Thank you!


----------



## pennyk

oregon pioneer said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> MODERATOR NOTE: many comments that related to the new credit card that were posted in this thread have been moved to the the AGR Master Card thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please post a link to that thread? For some reason it is not showing up on my "New Content" page. I know I saw it somewhere, but I can't find it now.
> 
> Thank you!
Click to expand...

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65160-new-amtrak-guest-rewards-master-card-fall-2015/


----------



## cyferx

iggy said:


> Not going to win any fans with my comment - rarely do. But for many of us it's hard to feel sorry for those of you who have collected 100,000's of points. Granted you have spent to earn them in almost all cases. But some of us haven't had the benefit of rewards credit card - we have earned our points by putting in seat time. Even with new system - although greatly devalued - those of you with stockpiles will get plenty of free travel opportunities. While the rest of us will have little to no chance of land cruises of old.
> 
> For those who have been at this for years - you had a great run - got to game the system for a long time. Appreciate that fact and realize that if you want Amtrak to have a chance at being here years down road - it was overdue for them to make this move. Although some tweaking needs done - listening to some reasonable feedback that has been provided here and other places.


I am confused. How is playing by the rules "gaming the system?" How is it that you didn't have the benefits of a rewards credit card? And how is the use of the card, a system that Amtrak has put in place, "gaming the system?"

Getting points through the AGR card is just as sanctioned and built into the AGR system as getting points by "putting in seat time." Amtrak made the system, so we are using it. And unless you have horrendous credit, you could have too, but for some reason chose not to. Personally, I don't care who supplies my Mastercard or Visa, so if they wish to differentiate on points that is their business decision, and mine to participate in their plan. AGR made the decision that it was of value to them to co-brand a credit card and to incentivize its use in exchange for free or enhanced travel. I agreed to use their card in exchange for that value add. They are getting the benefit of their business decision, and if it wasn't working for them as well as they liked, then they could change that system, and I am free to stop participating. But I am not responsible for "gaming" the system they built if I use it like they wanted me to.

Chase Signature Visa has an even better incentive than the branded AGR card, 2 points for travel related expenses, so buying Amtrak tickets with the Signature Visa resulted in 3 points per $1 spent. Again, if it is in their business judgement worth it to give me 3 points this way, how is my use of it gaming the system? It is true though that you need somewhat higher than average credit to get a Signature Visa, so this would not be available to some people.

My suspicion is that these co-branding and points exchanges (in the case of Chase Signature) have been a positive revenue source for Amtrak and the change from Chase to BoA is the result of successful bidding by that bank rather than a financial retreat.

In any case, following the rules, particularly as they were intended, is not gaming the system.


----------



## me_little_me

Manny T said:


> What has been argued above, that "a good [although never defined] portion of sleeper passengers pay for their tickets with AGR points," would not seem to fit well with the following statistics in a recent article (arguing in favor of US passenger rail) in the American Conservative, cited on another thread:
> 
> "Amtrak makes a lot more money from sleeping cars than from coaches: by its own calculations, sleeping car passengers account for just 15 percent of long-distance passengers but contribute 36 percent of total revenue. Amtrak’s average yield per mile for coach passengers is 14.2 cents; for sleeping car passengers, 27.2 cents."
> 
> To me it would seem that paying passengers must make up a majority of sleeping car pax.
> 
> Here is the full article: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/dont-railroad-amtrak/


How meaningful is that statistic? It seems that sometimes revenues don't include expenses so if Amtrak's "revenues" from sleeper passengers may also, because of higher expenses, reduce Amtrak's profit (mean more loss).

Anybody know whether sleepers really help or hinder given that one amortizes the cost properly (i.e. engine costs per car; diner costs mostly attributed to sleeper; attendant costs/car, payments to other RR per car, etc)?


----------



## jis

Always the relevant question to ask is how good or bad the revenue is. I.e. what is the cost per unit of revenue. While Amtrak is able to compute an overall CASM and RASM, I doubt that they can compute a meaningful similar set of numbers just for Sleepers.

Leaving aside the cost of amortizing the capital for engines and cars, which is probably noise for fully depreciated or close to such capital equipment, I doubt even purely operationally such numbers are available at such fine granularity.For one thing there is way too large a proportion of the costs accounted for by allocation, which brings in the issues of the allocation rules used, which seem to be a deeply held state secret for the Sleepers. So who knows? So they can just be tweaked to fit whichever narrative is convenient for the day. Cynical? Moi?


----------



## Ryan

A well written and rational look at how the new system plays out systemwide. Even has charts and maths and stuff.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/09/15/how-will-you-fare-under-the-redesigned-amtrak-guest-rewards.aspx

The bottom line is unsurprising:



> In summary, it seems like the vast majority of frequent Amtrak travelers will be better off under the redesigned Amtrak Guest Rewards system, especially those who book well in advance of travel. Those who will lose out, however, are those who wait until the last minute to book (when fares, and thus the number or points required, will be higher), prefer to earn a lot of points quickly through many inexpensive trips, those who can maximize the value of their points under the current zone system (see my El Paso to Wolf Point example, all within the West Zone), and most who redeem points for Bedrooms and Viewliner Roomettes except at the very lowest fare buckets.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Those of us who "gamed the system" are getting what we deserve since we used our "free points" for so many LD trips, and had so many $25 Amburgers, that cheated Amtrak out of Billions in revenue! 

"Yeah, that's the ticket!" Joe Liar/SNL Character


----------



## siberianmo

My two cents regarding "gaming the system":

Let's see, one is gaming when cashing in on a reward system? A system which promises and delivers to those who pay their way? Hmmmmmm. Extrapolating
a bit, I suppose there are those who think military retirees are "gaming the system," along with social security recipients, et al.

As someone much wiser than I said, "You can't fix stupid." Add to that, my own - "Everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion."

What a way begin the day!

The attached foto is from my latest rail adventure wherein I gamed the system!

The old Santa Fe Depot in San Diego - awaiting boarding for the Pacific SurfLiner to LAX for connection with the Sunset Ltd/Texas Eagle.

Cheers from Missouri!


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Ryan said:


> A well written and rational look at how the new system plays out systemwide. Even has charts and maths and stuff.
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/09/15/how-will-you-fare-under-the-redesigned-amtrak-guest-rewards.aspx
> 
> The bottom line is unsurprising:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In summary, it seems like the vast majority of frequent Amtrak travelers will be better off under the redesigned Amtrak Guest Rewards system, especially those who book well in advance of travel. Those who will lose out, however, are those who wait until the last minute to book (when fares, and thus the number or points required, will be higher), prefer to earn a lot of points quickly through many inexpensive trips, those who can maximize the value of their points under the current zone system (see my El Paso to Wolf Point example, all within the West Zone), *and most who redeem points for Bedrooms and Viewliner Roomettes except at the very lowest fare buckets*.
Click to expand...

And there's my problem with the new system- it hurts people who travel long distances in sleepers (except, as the author states, in the lowest fare buckets). Some here stating that the new system only hurts people who were "gaming the system", and the author of this article says that the "vast majority" will be better off. This is patently untrue if it negatively affects almost everyone in the sleepers.

I'd add two more groups of people to this list of those negatively affected by sleeper travel:

1) Those who travel together - the quoted price of $422 in a roomette from CHI-PDX were based on only one adult in the room. Under the old system, adding a second person in the roomette was free. Now, you'll have to pay extra for that.

2) Those who travel when it's busy - for example, during the summer. Buckets are a lot higher when it's busy, and those people will pay a lot more.

3) Those who make connections - the article assumes that everyone is traveling endpoint to endpoint. Sure, there are several trips of different lengths in the article, but I'd say the majority of Amtrak travelers make one (or more) connections. Under the old system, any connection within a zone was still considered one zone. Now, you're paying for those connections.

The author's low bucket for 1 person in November was $422, but for two people on the same route in the same roomette in the summer is $708; almost twice as much. And, at 24,000 points (booked now, when the price is probably at or near its lowest point), that's still a 20% increase, and will probably only go up from there. If you're making a connection (as many do), it's going to be even higher.

So, I'm not saying that it's bad for everyone, but there are a whole bunch of "normal" circumstances that will make it bad for pretty much everyone who travels, especially in sleepers, not just those who are gaming the system.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

siberianmo said:


> I suppose there are those who think military retirees are "gaming the system," along with social security recipients, et al.
> 
> As someone much wiser than I said, "You can't fix stupid." Add to that, my own - "Everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion."


Wrong forum for this subject. However why does our military personal now get to draw from three different sources of income. When they retire? Just because a law is past, it does not mean its a good idea.

Death by a thousand cuts. Soon only the military will be able to be funded by the federal government.

My ridiculous opinion. Why yes I am ex-military.


----------



## BCL

jimhudson said:


> Those of us who "gamed the system" are getting what we deserve since we used our "free points" for so many LD trips, and had so many $25 Amburgers, that cheated Amtrak out of Billions in revenue!
> 
> "Yeah, that's the ticket!" Joe Liar/SNL Character


You may be thinking of "Tommy Flanagan" as played by Jon Lovitz on SNL. Possibly mixing it up with "Joe Isuzu" who was played by David Leisure in a series of car commercials.


----------



## tonys96

D.P. Roberts said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> A well written and rational look at how the new system plays out systemwide. Even has charts and maths and stuff.http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/09/15/how-will-you-fare-under-the-redesigned-amtrak-guest-rewards.aspxThe bottom line is unsurprising:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In summary, it seems like the vast majority of frequent Amtrak travelers will be better off under the redesigned Amtrak Guest Rewards system, especially those who book well in advance of travel. Those who will lose out, however, are those who wait until the last minute to book (when fares, and thus the number or points required, will be higher), prefer to earn a lot of points quickly through many inexpensive trips, those who can maximize the value of their points under the current zone system (see my El Paso to Wolf Point example, all within the West Zone), *and most who redeem points for Bedrooms and Viewliner Roomettes except at the very lowest fare buckets*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And there's my problem with the new system- it hurts people who travel long distances in sleepers (except, as the author states, in the lowest fare buckets). Some here stating that the new system only hurts people who were "gaming the system", and the author of this article says that the "vast majority" will be better off. This is patently untrue if it negatively affects almost everyone in the sleepers.I'd add two more groups of people to this list of those negatively affected by sleeper travel:1) Those who travel together - the quoted price of $422 in a roomette from CHI-PDX were based on only one adult in the room. Under the old system, adding a second person in the roomette was free. Now, you'll have to pay extra for that.2) Those who travel when it's busy - for example, during the summer. Buckets are a lot higher when it's busy, and those people will pay a lot more.3) Those who make connections - the article assumes that everyone is traveling endpoint to endpoint. Sure, there are several trips of different lengths in the article, but I'd say the majority of Amtrak travelers make one (or more) connections. Under the old system, any connection within a zone was still considered one zone. Now, you're paying for those connections.The author's low bucket for 1 person in November was $422, but for two people on the same route in the same roomette in the summer is $708; almost twice as much. And, at 24,000 points (booked now, when the price is probably at or near its lowest point), that's still a 20% increase, and will probably only go up from there. If you're making a connection (as many do), it's going to be even higher.So, I'm not saying that it's bad for everyone, but there are a whole bunch of "normal" circumstances that will make it bad for pretty much everyone who travels, especially in sleepers, not just those who are gaming the system.
Click to expand...

Agreed. The destinations listed were cherry picked to make the change look less drastic than it is for those of us who are not located in the NEC or near a major hub. Note nearly all LD trips posted were from major hubs, and all single passenger, while current system is for two pax.

Anyone can always find something to boost their own opinion on the inner web, and that is all that post was for.


----------



## willem

> Changes or cancellations to point redemption reservations made after Jan. 24 will come with a 10% penalty if they result in points being returned to your account (the amount returned will be 10% less than the amount you initially redeemed).


Should that be 10% of the points that are no longer being redeemed? If I redeem 11,000 points, and then the price drops to where it would cost 10,000 points and I modify my redemption, then do I get 900 points (90% of the 1,000 point reduction) back? The article says that I would pay a penalty of 1,100 points (10% of the amount initially redeemed). In other words, i would need to pony up 100 points to take advantage of the lowered fare. Who knows? That might be right; it certainly would cut down on modified redemptions when the price drops.



> The window of account inactivity beyond which one's points expire will be extended from two years to three years, and redeeming points will now count as eligible account activity in addition to earning points.


I thought the window of inactivity was three years. Did I have that wrong?


----------



## willem

> ... free companion coupons cannot be used for sleepers...


Since the second person in a sleeper rides at low coach bucket, the coupon cannot be worth less in coach than for a companion in a sleeper. And since the second person in the sleeper now costs extra in a reward trip, it would be a small but welcome bone for those in LD hinterlands if the companion coupon could be redeemed for sleeper travel. The most obvious reason not to allow the companion coupon in a sleeper is that the AGR decision makers expect the coupon to go unused by those in the LD wasteland, thus saving the cost of redemption.


----------



## jis

Naturally for everyone, their own needs are the center of the world, and many of those oxen have been thoroughly gored by AGR 2.0. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The question that I have, and it is not clear how one gets an answer to that definitively, is whether those oxen are the important ones for Amtrak or not.

In my case about a third to half of my normal usage pattern of points in AGR 1.0 become non-viable. I will have to be more selective about where I use points and where I opt either to pay for Amtrak or for airline to cover the non-viable gaps. Ever since moving to Florida I have been doing some of that anyway due to want of time. When I am going to the west coast where the main part of the train journey is west of Chicago, I am no longer spending 2 days to get to Chicago from Florida, but I am flying to Chicago early morning of the departure of the western train (convenient 6am flight gets into O'Hare at a little after 8am). This as it turns out works well for me both time-wise and points-wise in AGR 2.0. Since I never had the time available to go on the grand tour of the west using a 2 zone award, the fact that those grand tours have now become points cost prohibitive does not affect me in the least. OTOH, almost all my KIS to WAS/NYP trips booked sufficiently in advance now cost less in points in AGR 2.0 than in AGR 1.0, and clearly I might be using points a lot more on the NEC.

So I guess everyone has a different ox that they ride, and AGR 2.0 gores different oxen in different ways. If Malcolm's riding pattern happens to be what he uses in his examples, who would anyone else be to judge whether his ox is better or worse than mine or theirs, in some general sense? It is a set of useful data points. If it fits someones travel needs so be it. If not, it does not.


----------



## Kat314159

The flip side of the two person sleeper redemption is that I don't throw away point riding single in a sleeper. As a person who says the heck with y'all I'm going to see/do ___ in ____ city I don't need to find a traveling companion to get "value" from a sleeper redemption.


----------



## Ryan

Well said.

If the majority of Amtrak ridership is in the corridors, what exactly is the problem with making their affinity program to match?

The membership of this forum skews in a different direction, which makes the pitchforks and torches brigade sadly predictable.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I wonder if it's possible to openly criticize AGR without having to hear from the megaphones and pompoms brigade? The only thing more silly than the overreaction to AGR is the overreaction _to the overreaction_. Personally I find this line of discussion rather fascinating and rather than marginalize or ridicule those who are being squeezed out I'd like to take it a bit deeper. For instance, are we on our way to reaching the point were the only way for Amtrak to survive without pricing their services out of reach of most Americans? Currently we're dealing changes to AGR but for many of us the AGR program was the crutch that allowed us to keep riding even after we've been priced out on the revenue side. I'm also curious who is routinely spending thousands of dollars on long sleeper trips, or if these trips are likely to dry up as Babyboomers begin to pass on in greater numbers. If that's true then will the prices eventually drop or will they need to keep rising in order to appease the politicians. Lots of interesting dynamics in play right now.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Ryan said:


> Well said.
> 
> If the majority of Amtrak ridership is in the corridors, what exactly is the problem with making their affinity program to match?
> 
> The membership of this forum skews in a different direction, which makes the pitchforks and torches brigade sadly predictable.


Because it's a national system.


----------



## jis

Broadly speaking the redemption side is now biased towards shorter cheaper journeys rather than very long expensive journeys on the whole, as was the case in AGR 1.0. Of course corridors fit the bill nicely. That is on the redemption side. OTOH, the most time efficient way to collect a pile of points, pending the additional ways yet to be announced for getting TQMs and points in corridors, would be to do a grand expensive bedroom trip. And yes, there is no way left to collect 5000 points spending only$600. In some sense on the acquisition side the bias has moved from short trips to long trips, or at least expensive trips.


----------



## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> I wonder if it's possible to openly criticize AGR without having to hear from the megaphones and pompoms brigade? The only thing more silly than the overreaction to AGR is the overreaction _to the overreaction_. Personally I find this line of discussion rather fascinating and rather than marginalize or ridicule those who are being squeezed out I'd like to take it a bit deeper. For instance, are we on our way to reaching the point were the only way for Amtrak to survive without pricing their services out of reach of most Americans? Currently we're dealing changes to AGR but for many of us the AGR program was the crutch that allowed us to keep riding even after we've been priced out on the revenue side. I'm also curious who is routinely spending thousands of dollars on long sleeper trips, or if these trips are likely to dry up as Babyboomers begin to pass on in greater numbers. If that's true then will the prices eventually drop or will they need to keep rising in order to appease the politicians. Lots of interesting dynamics in play right now.


I think we've reached a new level of meta in this thread, complaining about the complaining about the complaining...

I didn't think that offering the viewpoint that the population of AU and the general ridership of Amtrak are wildly different qualifies as megaphones and pompoms or marginalizing and ridiculing, but whatever floats your boat.

Edit to add: If anything, acknowledgement of "hey, it sucks for you" is the opposite of marginalization.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if it's possible to openly criticize AGR without having to hear from the megaphones and pompoms brigade? The only thing more silly than the overreaction to AGR is the overreaction _to the overreaction_. Personally I find this line of discussion rather fascinating and rather than marginalize or ridicule those who are being squeezed out I'd like to take it a bit deeper. For instance, are we on our way to reaching the point were the only way for Amtrak to survive without pricing their services out of reach of most Americans? Currently we're dealing changes to AGR but for many of us the AGR program was the crutch that allowed us to keep riding even after we've been priced out on the revenue side. I'm also curious who is routinely spending thousands of dollars on long sleeper trips, or if these trips are likely to dry up as Babyboomers begin to pass on in greater numbers. If that's true then will the prices eventually drop or will they need to keep rising in order to appease the politicians. Lots of interesting dynamics in play right now.
> 
> 
> 
> I think we've reached a new level of meta in this thread, complaining about the complaining about the complaining...
Click to expand...


----------



## NW cannonball

Devil's Advocate said:


> I wonder if it's possible to openly criticize AGR without having to hear from the megaphones and pompoms brigade? The only thing more silly than the overreaction to AGR is the overreaction _to the overreaction_. Personally I find this line of discussion rather fascinating and rather than marginalize or ridicule those who are being squeezed out I'd like to take it a bit deeper. For instance, are we on our way to reaching the point were the only way for Amtrak to survive without pricing their services out of reach of most Americans? Currently we're dealing changes to AGR but for many of us the AGR program was the crutch that allowed us to keep riding even after we've been priced out on the revenue side. I'm also curious who is routinely spending thousands of dollars on long sleeper trips, or if these trips are likely to dry up as Babyboomers begin to pass on in greater numbers. If that's true then will the prices eventually drop or will they need to keep rising in order to appease the politicians. Lots of interesting dynamics in play right now.


Meta Meta -- nobody understands Meta meta.

The very reasonable changes to the AGR progam make super-long zone-based points redemptions more expensive.

Because -- Amtrak can sell LD sleepers for a LOT more money than what the old zone-based system AGR redemptions used to cost.

Sorry, DA, actually, marketing to Boomers is a profitable but losing strategy - I'm a Boomer.

Actually, and obviously, there's a lot of people in their teens, 20's even 30's -- who will never buy a car - who will and do buy LD sleeper trips, just for the time out.

It's like back in the 1920's -- the old geezers had gold, but the world changed.

The new generation might or might not use slow trains -- my interaction with 20-somethings indicates they might. Fast trains -- for sure.

Speaking with 20-somethings -- they love rail, they don't give a rat's "beehind" about what "green stamps, ("points)" some rail authority used to give out.

The new generation wants efficient (cause they have such less cashflow) and effective transport, and to hell with the ancient political inherited BS

Times change.

Nobody cares about ancient demographics.


----------



## Bob Dylan

NW Cannonball: re " Nobody cares about Ancient demographics."

I'm not a marketer or ad person, but have you noticed the type of commercials and ads that are dominating the media and the junk mail ( snail and spam)today?

Most are targeted to the "Senior" and Boomer Markets, evidently because we are last so called generation that are "better off" than our parents! ( it's the Golden Rule, those that have the Gold Rule.)

Those that aren't targeting those "markets" ( aka older people) are trying to the sell the latest and greatest toy to the new generations you speak about. ( ie Apple, Samsung etc.)

I often ride Amtrak LD Trains all over the Country ( this will change with the New and Unimproved AGR2.0) and notice that the Sleeping Cars are mostly full of Middle Aged and Seniors, I very seldom see youngsters, they are mostly in Coch ( which, all things considrted, are under priced but a bargain for LD Travel).

Most youngsters don't have the time, patience or money to ride LD Trains, just the opposite of the Boomers and we Seniors. ( I'm 71)

Amtrak markets heavily to Seniors for LD Travel because that's where the Money is.

In my view Amtrak LD Trains will be gone in 10-15 years because today's Seniors will all be gone, but the Corridor and Commuter Trains will be booming because that's a growth market among the generations you speak about! YMMV


----------



## tonys96

NW cannonball said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if it's possible to openly criticize AGR without having to hear from the megaphones and pompoms brigade? The only thing more silly than the overreaction to AGR is the overreaction _to the overreaction_. Personally I find this line of discussion rather fascinating and rather than marginalize or ridicule those who are being squeezed out I'd like to take it a bit deeper. For instance, are we on our way to reaching the point were the only way for Amtrak to survive without pricing their services out of reach of most Americans? Currently we're dealing changes to AGR but for many of us the AGR program was the crutch that allowed us to keep riding even after we've been priced out on the revenue side. I'm also curious who is routinely spending thousands of dollars on long sleeper trips, or if these trips are likely to dry up as Babyboomers begin to pass on in greater numbers. If that's true then will the prices eventually drop or will they need to keep rising in order to appease the politicians. Lots of interesting dynamics in play right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Meta Meta -- nobody understands Meta meta.
> 
> The very reasonable changes to the AGR progam make super-long zone-based points redemptions more expensive.
> 
> Because -- Amtrak can sell LD sleepers for a LOT more money than what the old zone-based system AGR redemptions used to cost.
> 
> Sorry, DA, actually, marketing to Boomers is a profitable but losing strategy - I'm a Boomer.
> 
> Actually, and obviously, there's a lot of people in their teens, 20's even 30's -- who will never buy a car - who will and do buy LD sleeper trips, just for the time out.
> 
> It's like back in the 1920's -- the old geezers had gold, but the world changed.
> 
> The new generation might or might not use slow trains -- my interaction with 20-somethings indicates they might. Fast trains -- for sure.
> 
> Speaking with 20-somethings -- they love rail, they don't give a rat's "beehind" about what "green stamps, ("points)" some rail authority used to give out.
> 
> The new generation wants efficient (cause they have such less cashflow) and effective transport, and to hell with the ancient political inherited BS
> 
> Times change.
> 
> Nobody cares about ancient demographics.
Click to expand...

This is not what my experience shows. I cannot recall a single 20 something in a sleeper in any of my sleeper excursions.


----------



## Kat314159

As one in my mid 20s the reason you don't see junk mail or TV ads directed at us is because we don't care for those media. I haven't responded to a mailing for anything since I got the internet. Most of us stream our TV shows over the internet not via Rabbit Ears or cable subscriptions. The flip side is how many seniors do you see responding to Vine, Intagram, or Twitter?

In casual conversation it seems like my friends who aren't opposed to flying would take LD trains that are 1 overnight or less. Which really is true of me too for a short trip like a wedding.

If Amtrak could support VPN (even if it was a paid upgrade) outside NEC for me and my friends in IT that time frame would extend significantly. I can log in and work from a roomette or BC seat just as nicely as I can from my kitchen. Unless LD goes high speed and has some serious WiFi saturation you're right us kids these days won't burn the extra vacation days to ride the train.


----------



## jebr

tonys96 said:


> This is not what my experience shows. I cannot recall a single 20 something in a sleeper in any of my sleeper excursions.


To be honest, I can't recall too many of my sleeper companions, so I'm not going to speculate on what age they are. While I would not be surprised if most "20 somethings" take coach (due to money) or fly (due to time and money,) there are certainly some (including myself!) that will take Amtrak, even sleepers, if the timing and pricing is right. I've sometimes thought about taking Amtrak one way to Chicago for a weekend trip, and taking a sleeper would not be a bad way to go if it's low-bucket.

I have quite a bit of PTO where I don't need to be connected while I'm out of the office, which is rare for many 20 somethings. That's probably why you don't see many of them taking long-distance sleepers.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jebr said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not what my experience shows. I cannot recall a single 20 something in a sleeper in any of my sleeper excursions.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, I can't recall too many of my sleeper companions, so I'm not going to speculate on what age they are.
Click to expand...

My experience mirrors Tony's. Rarely if ever seen twenty somethings in the sleepers. Most of the time it's fifties or higher.


----------



## rrdude

Devil's Advocate said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not what my experience shows. I cannot recall a single 20 something in a sleeper in any of my sleeper excursions.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, I can't recall too many of my sleeper companions, so I'm not going to speculate on what age they are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My experience mirrors Tony's. Rarely if ever seen twenty somethings in the sleepers. Most of the time it's fifties or higher.
Click to expand...

DITTO


----------



## Bex

rrdude said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not what my experience shows. I cannot recall a single 20 something in a sleeper in any of my sleeper excursions.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, I can't recall too many of my sleeper companions, so I'm not going to speculate on what age they are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My experience mirrors Tony's. Rarely if ever seen twenty somethings in the sleepers. Most of the time it's fifties or higher.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> DITTO
Click to expand...

TRITTO.


----------



## tricia

Bex said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not what my experience shows. I cannot recall a single 20 something in a sleeper in any of my sleeper excursions.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, I can't recall too many of my sleeper companions, so I'm not going to speculate on what age they are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My experience mirrors Tony's. Rarely if ever seen twenty somethings in the sleepers. Most of the time it's fifties or higher.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> DITTO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TRITTO.
Click to expand...

Perhaps this has more to do with aging bodies than with generational differences. When I was in my 20s, sitting up overnight in a train (or car, or bus) cost me a lot less in discomfort the next day than it would now, in my increasingly creaky 50s. At this point, if I can't afford a sleeper, I don't travel overnight on a train.

If 20-somethings are disproportionately rare in sleeper cars, do they make up a greater proportion of overnight coach riders? If so, as they get older might many of them switch to sleeper, if they can afford it?

That's a whole lot of "ifs" for which I don't pretend to have any sort of statistical backing.


----------



## me_little_me

D.P. Roberts said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> A well written and rational look at how the new system plays out systemwide. Even has charts and maths and stuff.
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/09/15/how-will-you-fare-under-the-redesigned-amtrak-guest-rewards.aspx
> 
> The bottom line is unsurprising:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In summary, it seems like the vast majority of frequent Amtrak travelers will be better off under the redesigned Amtrak Guest Rewards system, especially those who book well in advance of travel. Those who will lose out, however, are those who wait until the last minute to book (when fares, and thus the number or points required, will be higher), prefer to earn a lot of points quickly through many inexpensive trips, those who can maximize the value of their points under the current zone system (see my El Paso to Wolf Point example, all within the West Zone), *and most who redeem points for Bedrooms and Viewliner Roomettes except at the very lowest fare buckets*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And there's my problem with the new system- it hurts people who travel long distances in sleepers (except, as the author states, in the lowest fare buckets). Some here stating that the new system only hurts people who were "gaming the system", and the author of this article says that the "vast majority" will be better off. This is patently untrue if it negatively affects almost everyone in the sleepers.
> 
> I'd add two more groups of people to this list of those negatively affected by sleeper travel:
> 
> 1) Those who travel together - the quoted price of $422 in a roomette from CHI-PDX were based on only one adult in the room. Under the old system, adding a second person in the roomette was free. Now, you'll have to pay extra for that.
> 
> 2) Those who travel when it's busy - for example, during the summer. Buckets are a lot higher when it's busy, and those people will pay a lot more.
> 
> 3) Those who make connections - the article assumes that everyone is traveling endpoint to endpoint. Sure, there are several trips of different lengths in the article, but I'd say the majority of Amtrak travelers make one (or more) connections. Under the old system, any connection within a zone was still considered one zone. Now, you're paying for those connections.
> 
> The author's low bucket for 1 person in November was $422, but for two people on the same route in the same roomette in the summer is $708; almost twice as much. And, at 24,000 points (booked now, when the price is probably at or near its lowest point), that's still a 20% increase, and will probably only go up from there. If you're making a connection (as many do), it's going to be even higher.
> 
> So, I'm not saying that it's bad for everyone, but there are a whole bunch of "normal" circumstances that will make it bad for pretty much everyone who travels, especially in sleepers, not just those who are gaming the system.
Click to expand...

A big issue is that having zones allowed people to make up somewhat for the deficiencies in Amtrak's routes. e.g. in the past ATL to MIA was reasonable as a one zone because there is no direct route between these major cities. Now you have to pay ATL to WAS and WAS to MIA. That means that what could have been a reasonably priced ticket on a direct route is unreasonably priced both in cash and therefore in points.


----------



## jebr

It'd make far more sense for Amtrak to make up that deficiency through a means that everyone could use on all trips (including cash fares,) though, instead of only fixing it for those that have the points to redeem for the trip and wish to redeem those points for that trip.


----------



## Carolina Special

Seems like the best solution to ATL-MIA involves a bus between ATL-SAV, not going all the way to WAS and back. It may not be popular, but it would be more cost effective for Amtrak.


----------



## tonys96

me_little_me said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> A well written and rational look at how the new system plays out systemwide. Even has charts and maths and stuff.
> 
> http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/09/15/how-will-you-fare-under-the-redesigned-amtrak-guest-rewards.aspx
> 
> The bottom line is unsurprising:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In summary, it seems like the vast majority of frequent Amtrak travelers will be better off under the redesigned Amtrak Guest Rewards system, especially those who book well in advance of travel. Those who will lose out, however, are those who wait until the last minute to book (when fares, and thus the number or points required, will be higher), prefer to earn a lot of points quickly through many inexpensive trips, those who can maximize the value of their points under the current zone system (see my El Paso to Wolf Point example, all within the West Zone), *and most who redeem points for Bedrooms and Viewliner Roomettes except at the very lowest fare buckets*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And there's my problem with the new system- it hurts people who travel long distances in sleepers (except, as the author states, in the lowest fare buckets). Some here stating that the new system only hurts people who were "gaming the system", and the author of this article says that the "vast majority" will be better off. This is patently untrue if it negatively affects almost everyone in the sleepers.
> 
> I'd add two more groups of people to this list of those negatively affected by sleeper travel:
> 
> 1) Those who travel together - the quoted price of $422 in a roomette from CHI-PDX were based on only one adult in the room. Under the old system, adding a second person in the roomette was free. Now, you'll have to pay extra for that.
> 
> 2) Those who travel when it's busy - for example, during the summer. Buckets are a lot higher when it's busy, and those people will pay a lot more.
> 
> 3) Those who make connections - the article assumes that everyone is traveling endpoint to endpoint. Sure, there are several trips of different lengths in the article, but I'd say the majority of Amtrak travelers make one (or more) connections. Under the old system, any connection within a zone was still considered one zone. Now, you're paying for those connections.
> 
> The author's low bucket for 1 person in November was $422, but for two people on the same route in the same roomette in the summer is $708; almost twice as much. And, at 24,000 points (booked now, when the price is probably at or near its lowest point), that's still a 20% increase, and will probably only go up from there. If you're making a connection (as many do), it's going to be even higher.
> 
> So, I'm not saying that it's bad for everyone, but there are a whole bunch of "normal" circumstances that will make it bad for pretty much everyone who travels, especially in sleepers, not just those who are gaming the system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A big issue is that having zones allowed people to make up somewhat for the deficiencies in Amtrak's routes. e.g. in the past ATL to MIA was reasonable as a one zone because there is no direct route between these major cities. Now you have to pay ATL to WAS and WAS to MIA. That means that what could have been a reasonably priced ticket on a direct route is unreasonably priced both in cash and therefore in points.
Click to expand...

Same for DAL to anywhere not on TE route. Go to CHI or LA first. Huge points expense.


----------



## nferr

Not all trips come out worse in points. Just priced out BRP to SFC in July, then SFC to LAX, and LAX to BRP. Roomette all the way. Used Amsnag to get decent buckets. Came to $1752 or 60,444 points. That trip would be 85,000 points under the old system although I would probably pay for the SFC/LAX portion since that's not worth burning 15,000 points IMO. Even with a second passenger it's about 83,000 points (that's where the new system really hurts IMO). So it's not necessarily a killer. Does do away with the real roundabout trips where you could really get a bargain under the old rules. Did a couple of those myself.


----------



## Ispolkom

D.P. Roberts said:


> And there's my problem with the new system- it hurts people who travel long distances in sleepers (except, as the author states, in the lowest fare buckets). Some here stating that the new system only hurts people who were "gaming the system", and the author of this article says that the "vast majority" will be better off. This is patently untrue if it negatively affects almost everyone in the sleepers.


This statement is patently untrue. The vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't ride sleepers. Heck, a large majority of Amtrak trains do not have sleepers.

AGR isn't there to reward sleeper passengers. They are already a captive market, after all. AGR is a marketing program to encourage people to ride trains in major corridors rather than fly or drive. The fact that you earn and can spend points on long-distance trains is a ancillary aspect of the program.


----------



## jis

That is true. It is only a vast minority that rides Sleepers, admittedly one that might have a disproportionate feeling of entitlement because of the higher fares that they pay. But when computed on a per mile basis it is the NEC passengers that really shell out the big bucks.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Ispolkom said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> And there's my problem with the new system- it hurts people who travel long distances in sleepers (except, as the author states, in the lowest fare buckets). Some here stating that the new system only hurts people who were "gaming the system", and the author of this article says that the "vast majority" will be better off. This is patently untrue if it negatively affects almost everyone in the sleepers.
> 
> 
> 
> This statement is patently untrue. The vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't ride sleepers. Heck, a large majority of Amtrak trains do not have sleepers.
> 
> AGR isn't there to reward sleeper passengers. They are already a captive market, after all. AGR is a marketing program to encourage people to ride trains in major corridors rather than fly or drive. The fact that you earn and can spend points on long-distance trains is a ancillary aspect of the program.
Click to expand...




jis said:


> That is true. It is only a vast minority that rides Sleepers, admittedly one that might have a disproportionate feeling of entitlement because of the higher fares that they pay. But when computed on a per mile basis it is the NEC passengers that really shell out the big bucks.


Okay, I'll completely concede the point about "vast majority" - of course the majority of Amtrak passengers are in the NEC. Whether it's a "vast majority" or not is simply a matter of semantics.

But I completely disagree with the points both of you made about the AGR program & the response of people like myself who are unhappy with the changes.

For one, to state that AGR "isn't there to reward sleeper passengers" is simultaneously false and irrelevant. False because under both the old and new AGR systems, passengers can earn points and spend points for long distance travel. It "exists" for everyone who travels on Amtrak. This point is also irrelevant, as who exactly can state the "purpose" of AGR- or the purpose of Amtrak itself for that matter? Amtrak takes passengers from point A to point B. Amtrak serves its purpose when passengers take Amtrak trains; all train travel serves this purpose. The NEC may be far more popular and financially beneficial, but it is no more purposeful than any other area of the country.

Secondly, I have not stated - and I haven't seen anyone else state - that they are "entitled" to any benefits as part of the AGR program, or that we're entitled to an AGR program at all. I'm simply disappointed that I no longer get the benefits I used to get. I'd also be upset if my local grocery store suddenly doubled its prices, or if my favorite restaurant closed its location near me, yet I'm not entitled to either of those things. How, exactly, am I supposed to react to these changes to AGR? Am I supposed to be excited that I'll be paying more? Does paying more for stuff generally make people happy? I understand WHY Amtrak made these changes, I just don't LIKE it, and for good reason. I don't understand people like you two, and the author of the article previously mentioned, who expect people like me to be happy about this.


----------



## tonys96

D.P. Roberts said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> And there's my problem with the new system- it hurts people who travel long distances in sleepers (except, as the author states, in the lowest fare buckets). Some here stating that the new system only hurts people who were "gaming the system", and the author of this article says that the "vast majority" will be better off. This is patently untrue if it negatively affects almost everyone in the sleepers.
> 
> 
> 
> This statement is patently untrue. The vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't ride sleepers. Heck, a large majority of Amtrak trains do not have sleepers.
> 
> AGR isn't there to reward sleeper passengers. They are already a captive market, after all. AGR is a marketing program to encourage people to ride trains in major corridors rather than fly or drive. The fact that you earn and can spend points on long-distance trains is a ancillary aspect of the program.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is true. It is only a vast minority that rides Sleepers, admittedly one that might have a disproportionate feeling of entitlement because of the higher fares that they pay. But when computed on a per mile basis it is the NEC passengers that really shell out the big bucks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Okay, I'll completely concede the point about "vast majority" - of course the majority of Amtrak passengers are in the NEC. Whether it's a "vast majority" or not is simply a matter of semantics.
> 
> But I completely disagree with the points both of you made about the AGR program & the response of people like myself who are unhappy with the changes.
> 
> For one, to state that AGR "isn't there to reward sleeper passengers" is simultaneously false and irrelevant. False because under both the old and new AGR systems, passengers can earn points and spend points for long distance travel. It "exists" for everyone who travels on Amtrak. This point is also irrelevant, as who exactly can state the "purpose" of AGR- or the purpose of Amtrak itself for that matter? Amtrak takes passengers from point A to point B. Amtrak serves its purpose when passengers take Amtrak trains; all train travel serves this purpose. The NEC may be far more popular and financially beneficial, but it is no more purposeful than any other area of the country.
> 
> Secondly, I have not stated - and I haven't seen anyone else state - that they are "entitled" to any benefits as part of the AGR program, or that we're entitled to an AGR program at all. I'm simply disappointed that I no longer get the benefits I used to get. I'd also be upset if my local grocery store suddenly doubled its prices, or if my favorite restaurant closed its location near me, yet I'm not entitled to either of those things. How, exactly, am I supposed to react to these changes to AGR? Am I supposed to be excited that I'll be paying more? Does paying more for stuff generally make people happy? I understand WHY Amtrak made these changes, I just don't LIKE it, and for good reason. I don't understand people like you two, and the author of the article previously mentioned, who expect people like me to be happy about this.
Click to expand...

Ditto.

And this statement: "AGR is a marketing program to encourage people to ride trains in major corridors rather than fly or drive." is _*patently ridiculous*_. If this were the case, only NEC riders (vast majority in coach) would get points, and only the NEC trains would be available for rewards.


----------



## Ispolkom

*D.P. Roberts, *if AGR wasn't invented to lure passengers in the NEC, why did it appear as part of the roll out of Acela? Why do all the benefits of status except extra points only benefit people in corridors? And honest, I don't care how you feel about the changes to AGR. They affect me negatively, but I don't pretend that the reduction of free sleeper travel to me might not improve things for most AGR members. Important note, our disagreement isn't about semantics, but about arithmetic. To repeat, the vast majority of Amtrak passengers ride coach. These AGR changes don't affect them.

*tony96,* please note my last sentence. Key word there is *ancillary*. Just because a program provides a function doesn't mean that the intent or the goal of the program was to provide that function.

My whole hobby of exploiting frequent-traveler programs is based on this concept. Corporations create programs with some intent. I use them to create value for myself, in ways that often have nothing to do with that intent. I don't expect the corporation to like it, and I'm not surprised if they change things to eliminate my exploit. It's all in the game, as Omar Little said. Me, rather than complaining about changes, I'm on to the next thing. This ain't my first rodeo.


----------



## tonys96

Ispolkom said:


> *D.P. Roberts, *if AGR wasn't invented to lure passengers in the NEC, why did it appear as part of the roll out of Acela? Why do all the benefits of status except extra points only benefit people in corridors? And honest, I don't care how you feel about the changes to AGR. They affect me negatively, but I don't pretend that the reduction of free sleeper travel to me might not improve things for most AGR members. Important note, our disagreement isn't about semantics, but about arithmetic. To repeat, the vast majority of Amtrak passengers ride coach. These AGR changes don't affect them.
> 
> *tony96,* please note my last sentence. Key word there is *ancillary*. Just because a program provides a function doesn't mean that the intent or the goal of the program was to provide that function.
> 
> My whole hobby of exploiting frequent-traveler programs is based on this concept. Corporations create programs with some intent. I use them to create value for myself, in ways that often have nothing to do with that intent. I don't expect the corporation to like it, and I'm not surprised if they change things to eliminate my exploit. It's all in the game, as Omar Little said. Me, rather than complaining about changes, I'm on to the next thing. This ain't my first rodeo.


I totally disagree with your premise. IMHO, it is a false narrative.

AGR is there to entice* all *travelers to try/use Amtrak. Not those in any particular location or "corridor". That said, the new changes *do* seem to benefit the NEC more than any other part of the system, but the AGR program is still a marketing tool for all of the system. Again, IMHO.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm totally with Tony on this, but since Amtrak and AGR didn't ask their customers for input on the New and Unimproved AGR2.0, there's really nothing we can do except vote with our wallet by spending travel money on other affordable means of transportation!(Amtrak currently is not affordable nor worth what they charge for the declining level of services)

But they don't care, the NEC is all that matters to them and the apologists that approve of this devaluation and favoritism certainly are entitled to their opinions. (however wrong they may be! )


----------



## D.P. Roberts

Ispolkom said:


> And honest, I don't care how you feel about the changes to AGR. They affect me negatively, but I don't pretend that the reduction of free sleeper travel to me might not improve things for most AGR members. Important note, our disagreement isn't about semantics, but about arithmetic. To repeat, the vast majority of Amtrak passengers ride coach. These AGR changes don't affect them.
> 
> My whole hobby of exploiting frequent-traveler programs is based on this concept. Me, rather than complaining about changes, I'm on to the next thing. This ain't my first rodeo.


1. I don't care that you don't care how I feel. (Yay, we're getting meta again!)

2. Who implied that "the reduction of free sleeper travel" "might not improve things for most AGR members"? Like many people, I'm simply expressing my own frustration - not just at Amtrak, but at all the people (like you) who aren't just stating that my concerns are irrelevant to Amtrak, but that they don't EXIST.

3. Personally, exploiting frequent-traveler programs isn't my hobby. I don't participate in any other frequent traveler programs, or travel long distance (more than a few hours) by any other means other than Amtrak. Taking long-distance train travel might even be considered a hobby for some, but for me it's how I choose to actually get around the country. And if it affects me, it also affects a whole lot of other people who travel long distance in sleepers, and might affect my future ability to travel that way (if enough other sleeper passengers are also affected). So yeah, I can see how it bothers me more than it might bother you.


----------



## jis

I have not said anything about anyone being happy about it. At least I did not intend to.

Personally I am happy about some aspects and unhappy about others. It is a mixed bag. How happy one is or not overall depend on how the new scheme fits ones normal travel patterns or not.


----------



## Carolina Special

So just to confuse the whole NEC/LD issue, Amtrak on comes out with their "500 Destinations. Infinite Stories." nationwide ad campaign, said to be the first in 15 years. Includes nice shots of the Rockies and the desert in their videos and stills.


----------



## tricia

I'd bet that Amtrak passenger usage would be less disproportionately on the NEC if Amtrak's routes and frequencies weren't so skeletal in most of the rest of the US.

Changing AGR to further favor NEC travelers can only make this worse: Making it even less attractive to travel outside the NEC makes it likely that even fewer passengers will do so.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I absolutely agree, tricia!

There seems to be some disconnect between Amtrak's marketing department, which does a lovely job of portraying Amtrak the way it should be, and the actual management, which seems to be praising long-distance while secretly trying to get rid of it. I live along the NEC, but I truly wish that the rest of the country had the amount of stations and trains that we take for granted here.


----------



## Carolina Special

Perhaps the savings from devaluing the AGR program are going into the new national advertising campaign. Since the price of LD travel is effectively going up, there is more incentive to advertise and put rear ends in the seats and berths than there was previously.

The video with the couple saying they have done "Europe, Asia, even Africa, now America" suggests an appeal to the high end market.


----------



## tonys96

tricia said:


> I'd bet that Amtrak passenger usage would be less disproportionately on the NEC if Amtrak's routes and frequencies weren't so skeletal in most of the rest of the US.
> 
> Changing AGR to further favor NEC travelers can only make this worse: Making it even less attractive to travel outside the NEC makes it likely that even fewer passengers will do so.


Agreed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Really nice posts Carolina Special, tricia and MRD!!

I wish the mica-managers @ Amtrak saw it this way!


----------



## siberianmo

_*More of My Two Cents:*_

_*This topic has become magnetic - really something that has triggered all sorts of oh-pin-yuns, commentary, insights, etc. Cannot keep away . . .*_

_*My BOA M/Card is all set up and has arrived in the mail. Fortunately, we have just had a rather extensive home project completed - that will go *_

_*"on the card."*_

_*Called Chase once again to reaffirm how to cancel that Freedom Signature card - cancel their Guest Rewards card and that is that.*_

_*This 'n that:*_

_*I have been in the camp of those who love traveling by train, but could really care less who the operator is (providing of course, rail safety standards *_

_*are adhered to!). An earlier comment regarding Amtrak's advertising as opposed to the reality of the travel is spot on. The boardroom apparently *_

_*has not seen the light of day through a coach or bedroom window in many moons.*_

_*I wonder: How can someone decide what is "best" when that someone has not either conferred with those who do the job or gained first hand experience *_

_*by getting on the scene themselves? Far too many times I have witnessed changes to what used-to-work to what-became-annoying, only to find out from *_

_*the crew members that they were not asked. Most probably just the way it goes when you have those at the top breathing the rarified air.*_

_*A shame the Guest Rewards Moguls are not reading the comments or more importantly, traveling with us.*_

_*Another foto from my recent "gaming the system" trip (aka: cashing in Guest Rewards points)!*_

_*Foto is of a private car coupled to my sleeper car at Ft. Worth aboard the northbound Texas Eagle #422. *_

_*The car? Northern Charters #800710 - Sleeper Lounge, Northern Dreams. (One can find this outfit on Northern Sky Rail Charters.)*_

_*Enjoy this fine day!*_


----------



## Eric S

But was AGR changed to favor NEC riders only, or corridor riders more generally?


----------



## PaulM

Eric S said:


> But was AGR changed to favor NEC riders only, or corridor riders more generally?


Based on the complaints about NEC high prices, I would say eliminating the 100 point minimum targets Midwest corridors. CHI-QCY typically $28; CHI-STL typically $27 (they can get much higher close to departure date).


----------



## Eric S

PaulM said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> But was AGR changed to favor NEC riders only, or corridor riders more generally?
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the complaints about NEC high prices, I would say eliminating the 100 point minimum targets Midwest corridors. CHI-QCY typically $28; CHI-STL typically $27 (they can get much higher close to departure date).
Click to expand...

True, I hadn't considered the 100 point change. Although that affects any corridors with fares under $50, which would also include California corridors and others.


----------



## jis

Then again NEC lost the 500 and 750 Acela minimums between select city pairs.

I think the system was always biased towards the NEC. It was most likely not a coincidence that it was introduced with the Acelas. Also the 500 minimum is unlikely to be just a coincidence that it is exactly the same number of minimum miles per segment that Continental had back then, and it was also unlikely to be a coincidence that Amtrak points were transferable to Continental miles one for one. The rest of AGR was bolted onto the basic need to make Acela competitive with airlines on the NEC, at which it did succeed BTW.

I am not saying that therefore things should not be improved viz a viz LD service. But to forget the origins would lead one astray in the attempts to understand the evolution.

Perhaps what is needed is two separate plans, one for corridors that are airline competitive and another for the rest with some cross redemption features. The business imperatives and the nature of the customers of these two groups almost appear to be irreconcilably different.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The elimination of 750 and 500 Point Minimums for City Pair rides on Acela are a Straw Man that in no way compare with the elimination of the 100 Point Minimums. Most Acela Fares are such High Buckets that you get More Points than the Minimums!

Someone please tell me why passengers paying $2000-$3000 for a Sleeping Car ticket don't deserve Bonus Points when

a $200-$400 Fare on Acela FC and BC does?( Not to mention that there are No Acelas or Biz Class Trains where so many members live, just infrequent LD Trains that offer Poor Service, shoddy equipment and OTP @ ever increasing prices!)

And still no answer as to why the 10% point Penalty for Cancellations of AGR Award trips, or MODIFICATIONS!!!!? more than 14 days out, or the draconian 20% Penalty if less than 14 days out that no-one else faces!!!! Except that Select Exec are exempt!! Why??

This question has been asked on several forums, by several members, and the Silence from AGR is total!

They must either be ashamed of this Bone headed policy, or else its a military secret as another AU member referenced!

Could we please have an answer along with full disclosure of all the changes, its Sept. 20th for goodness sake??,

Congress moves faster than this and they don't do anything except produce smoke and mirrors and issue Press Releases full of BS bragging about how wonderful they are and how every body will be so much better off!!!!!

Sound familiar??


----------



## oregon pioneer

jimhudson said:


> And still no answer as to why the 10% point Penalty for Cancellations of AGR Award trips, or MODIFICATIONS!!!!? more than 14 days out, or the 20% Penalty if less than 14 days!!!! Except that Select Exec are exempt!! Why??
> 
> This question has been asked on several forums, by several members, and the Silence from AGR is total!


Yes, that one has me totally puzzled and hurt. I don't understand it, especially because there is no such penalty when paying cash. It makes it difficult to book early with confidence, even though I usually do book early and rarely modify reservations. Good thing I have no trips panned after the changes take effect, at least till late fall/early winter '16. Maybe, just maybe, they will rethink that one policy by then. It is so punitive.


----------



## Bex

jimhudson said:


> Someone please tell me why passengers paying $2000-$3000 for a Sleeping Car ticket don't deserve Bonus Points when
> 
> a $200-$400 Fare on Acela FC and BC does?( Not to mention that there are No Acelas or Biz Class Trains where so many members live, just infrequent LD Trains that offer Poor Service, shoddy equipment and OTP @ ever increasing prices!)


Because one makes Amtrak money and one doesn't? Just a guess.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Bex said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone please tell me why passengers paying $2000-$3000 for a Sleeping Car ticket don't deserve Bonus Points when
> 
> a $200-$400 Fare on Acela FC and BC does?( Not to mention that there are No Acelas or Biz Class Trains where so many members live, just infrequent LD Trains that offer Poor Service, shoddy equipment and OTP @ ever increasing prices!)
> 
> 
> 
> Because one makes Amtrak money and one doesn't? Just a guess.
Click to expand...

I think what you really mean to say is that Both bring in Revenue for Amtrak, but Amtrak has Never Made Money and Never Will!!!

Acela revenue above the Rails certainly helps Amtrak's Cash flow, but if all of the expenses for the NEC were included, Acela would still Lose Millions of Dollars as do the LD Trains, and all other Passenger Rail in this Country!

Thanks for your thoughts and reply, I'm still waiting on AGR to answer the questions and stop hiding behind press releases full of marketing speak!


----------



## Bex

No, what I meant was what I said. NEC passengers bring in money, LD passengers lose money. However you feel about that or what Amtrak could do to change it, there it is, and it could be the answer to your question. I have no idea, really, that's why it was a guess. But thanks for the assumptions and insults.

BTW, the new system does NOT help me, it hurts me because the ticket I currently most often use points for will now cost more of them than it did before. I will earn no more than I did. Not to mention that I rewarded myself with LD trips that will no longer be possible, or at least not in the same way. But what I can see is the big picture, that whatever was done here was to maximize profits for Amtrak, a goal with which I can't disagree, honestly.


----------



## abcnews

jimhudson said:


> And still no answer as to why the 10% point Penalty for Cancellations of AGR Award trips, or MODIFICATIONS!!!!? more than 14 days out, or the draconian 20% Penalty if less than 14 days out that no-one else faces!!!! Except that Select Exec are exempt!! Why??


The airline penalties are much worse for any modification made to a free ticket. The exception is Southwest.

US Air was a flat $300 fee for each ticket. That's $600 if two are traveling. $900 for three...

I think 10% is fair. Naturally, I would rather there be no charge for AGR modifications, but at the same time - I would think 10% is reasonable.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Good point about the draconian airline fees ABC news, but do we want Amtrak to continue to follow the airline model when it comes to nickel and diming customers and to Loyalty Programs?

Do you feel the 20% penalty is justified when cash customers and Select Exec members don't have this Penalty?


----------



## abcnews

Actually, I think the rule is absolutely no 100% refund, if you cancel a (cash) sleeper reservation with less than 14 days. Only a one year voucher valid only on Amtrak - so it's not like you get a full refund if you cancel with less than 14 days notice on a cash/credit card ticket (non AGR).

And I do think Select Exec members earn the privilege to be able to make modifications to AGR reservations, since they are not casual, or occasional travelers, but the very best of the best Amtrak customers. They pay the bills.

If you owned an a restaurant or a hotel, or even a beach house, - would you be more likely to be lenient to your very best customer - versus someone you hardly know? Special treatment?


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'd treat All of my customers like Kings and Queens!

That was Walt Disney and Sam Walton's Motto, and they were quite successful at taking care of everyone who spent money @ their business!

I'm not opposed to giving those that spend more extra perks and benefits, but no customers should be penalized for things that happen that are beyond their control!

I would also point out that with 3-5 Long Distance trips a Year on Amtrak, one could spend MORE than a Select Executive Member that spends $10,000 a year on Acela trips!

These are Very Good Customers also, and I know people that don't live on the NEC, and have met many on LD Trains that actually do this! Don't they deserve extra perks too?


----------



## jebr

jimhudson said:


> Someone please tell me why passengers paying $2000-$3000 for a Sleeping Car ticket don't deserve Bonus Points when
> 
> a $200-$400 Fare on Acela FC and BC does?( Not to mention that there are No Acelas or Biz Class Trains where so many members live, just infrequent LD Trains that offer Poor Service, shoddy equipment and OTP @ ever increasing prices!)


I guess how one defines "deserves" is the crux of that question, and one where we would certainly disagree (and certainly can rightfully disagree.)

To answer the related question of why is Amtrak offering the bonus on premium seats on the corridors but not on premium accommodations on the long distance trains, I'm pretty sure that it's due to the lack of direct competition for long distance sleepers. A bonus on points for sleepers is unlikely to create much additional business for Amtrak, nor is a lack of such bonus likely to cause a mass exodus on sleeper accommodations. Someone who is taking a sleeper long-distance may defect to the airlines, but I really doubt a bonus on points would keep them on the train (or attract them to the train.) On the other hand, the travel time on the corridor is short enough and reliable/frequent enough where a person may be debating between driving, taking the plane, or taking Amtrak. Especially for business travelers, a bonus may help to drive that business to Amtrak over, say, the airlines.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thank you jeb, excellent answer!

But AGR should just explain stuff like this instead of keeping things secret and releasing press releases full of Marketspeak BS! Put Lipstick on a pig, you still have a pig!

Evidently the AGR Team has been muzzled by the Suits that are letting the Bean Counters and Marketing Weasels dream up more nickel and dime cuts to LD Trains, and are busy making promises they can't keep to the mica-managers on the Hill!

What they are doing is driving many of us away from the LD Trains and towards the Airlines and Buses, since all we have are LD Trains that are over priced, and in rapid decline as to service, amenities,OTP and equipment! ( you know you're not on the right track when train fans like CHamilton, Anderson and many others feel the same way.)


----------



## Ryan

I'm on my phone in an airport, and haven't had the ability to sit down and compose a long reply answering specific points. Perhaps when I get to the third hotel in 4 days this evening, I'll have a chance.

But until then, I would like to refute the notion that AGR owes us any explanation of their rationale behind the rule changes. It's quite literally not our business.

Jim, you also mentioned upthread (or in another) that they rolled this out without talking to any passengers. Do you actually know this for a fact, are you just assuming that based on speculation and the fact that you weren't one of the passengers asked?


----------



## Ryan

I had wanted to look these number up as well, this is the September monthly report, giving us the numbers for all of FY 14.

Looking at where the ridership and revenue is (most definitely not in the LD service, of which sleeping car passengers are an even smaller subset), it is no surprise to me where AGR's focus is.


----------



## tricia

Ryan said:


> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1442833516.975344.jpg
> 
> I had wanted to look these number up as well, this is the September monthly report, giving us the numbers for all of FY 14.
> 
> Looking at where the ridership and revenue is (most definitely not in the LD service, of which sleeping car passengers are an even smaller subset), it is no surprise to me where AGR's focus is.


Still, Amtrak is at least putatively a NATIONAL rail system. The NEC has a rich set of routes and departure times, the rest of the country skeletal. Anything that further advantages NEC travel vs travel in the rest of the network sucks more and more life out of the rest of the system. Given the fixed costs of running even the skeletal LD system, you'd think that Amtrak would want to attract MORE riders there.

Thanks to all who've raised other aspects of the AGR program's changes that disadvantage LD travel for potential riders in much of the country--I'd mainly had in mind the loss of the zone system, which adds a vast cost increase (in points) to the existing roundabout inconvenience of train routes from where many of us live to just about anywwhere else. (I'm in the southeast; others have noted that Texas and other parts of the country have similar connectivity problems.)


----------



## jis

I must point out that Jim is not correct in his contention that most Acela tickets are such high bucket that twice their dollar value is higher than the 500/750 minimum. Yes there are certain high bucket prices that fall into that category but most tickets on a given train are not sold in that high bucket. Most are sold at much lower buckets where the 500/750 minimum is still very relevant.

For example, I just purchased an Acela ticket BOS - NWK three days out at $113. For Jim's contention to be correct most tickets on that itinerary should cost more than $250. That just is not the case.

Prices in NEC South are higher, but even there the First Class Acela ticket that I bought MET - WAS was nowhere near $375 let alone be over it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks to everyone who pointed out the errors in my posts about the Fares on Acela FC and the dising of LD Riders when it comes to Bonus Points,lack of opportunities for using Amtrak in most of the country ( which is not Amtraks fault), the devaluation of of the point value and the cancellation and modification point penalties which really sucks.

Also thanks to those who agree with my Points as they are also affected by this unfair and less than well thought out revision to the best loyalty travel program. ( more people than you might think)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this and realize that a large portion of us will not be riding Amtrak as often or as far as in the past since Amtrak is pricing us out by offering less for more than it's worth.

Those of us that love to travel often will now have to go back to giving our travel money to the airlines, buses and the oil companies!

That's a Damn shame, but could be easily corrected by AGR with hardly any or no cost to Amtrak, but as John F. Kennedy said: "..Life is unfair.."

Ryan: I was told by someone that should know, that the frequent riders, including Select, Select+ and SE members, were NOT consulted at all, this was all done in house by Bean Counters and Marketing weasels.

But to be fair, without Anthony and his Boss, it would have been alot worse as some of the original ideas were even more punitive than the worst of the airline programs.


----------



## Ryan

jimhudson said:


> realize that a large portion of us will not be riding Amtrak as often or as far as in the past since Amtrak is pricing us out by offering less for more than it's worth.


I'm sure that will be the case. I'm also quite sure that Amtrak won't notice that a minority of a minority of a minority of their passengers will go elsewhere.



tricia said:


> Still, Amtrak is at least putatively a NATIONAL rail system.


As is AGR, still.


----------



## tonys96

I believe a more correct statement would be that Amtrak is a reasonably extensive system in the NEC, and a decent system along the East Coast, and also a skeletal system most every where else.


----------



## BCL

tonys96 said:


> I believe a more correct statement would be that Amtrak is a reasonably extensive system in the NEC, and a decent system along the East Coast, and also a skeletal system most every where else.


There are also the corridors, although they're generally run by local authorities with Amtrak providing operating employees, and affiliated brand, and interconnection with a bigger rail system. However, these routes are often the best to achieve those 100-point minimum segments because of the frequency of operation of what are essentially commuter trains.


----------



## zephyr17

NEC=Nothing Else Counts


----------



## Devil's Advocate

If the LD network is where Amtrak is struggling to fill trains then why isn't AGR being leveraged as an incentive to fill those trains? Perhaps the feeble LD network is seen as impossible to fix. Or simply not worth the effort. I find it odd to think the LD network will be stronger with fewer AGR incentives.


----------



## Ryan

I'm pretty sure they're not struggling to fill trains.


----------



## tonys96

Ryan said:


> I'm pretty sure they're not struggling to fill trains.


Ok. If you say so.


----------



## jis

The primary thing that they need to do is to raise RASM while holding down CASM. AGR is but one means to achieve that. I am not sure exactly how the cost and benefit of AGR is computed in the context of the bigger picture. How much additional net revenue AGR brings from the LD network is one that at least I don't know the answer to. I hope someone in Amtrak knows and is using to drive the various decisions.

From what I recall AGR has always been somewhat of a stepchild in the Amtrak big picture and we actually owe some to few people we know and whom some have castigated here, for keeping AGR alive by making the business case for it repeatedly over the years.

Programs like AGR are not unconditional entitlements in general. The possibility of unconditional and complete discontinuation are usually included in the conditions of participation and have generally held up in courts. Typically reasons for changes are provided in carefully crafted marketing language. Some are better at sugar coating the pill than others. I suppose they will answer only those questions that they think are critical to answer for their marketing goals, and will not answer the rest. This is how the airlines behaved during major transitions. As usual there was a big hue and cry from specially those that felt they had a special relationship. Cases flew around for a while, and then things settled down with almost no change in the fundamentals of the change. I have no reason to believe it will be any different in this case.


----------



## jis

BCL said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe a more correct statement would be that Amtrak is a reasonably extensive system in the NEC, and a decent system along the East Coast, and also a skeletal system most every where else.
> 
> 
> 
> There are also the corridors, although they're generally run by local authorities with Amtrak providing operating employees, and affiliated brand, and interconnection with a bigger rail system. However, these routes are often the best to achieve those 100-point minimum segments because of the frequency of operation of what are essentially commuter trains.
Click to expand...

There has been mention of corridor specific incentives specially from California. Maybe they will play a role in instituting such, and that may include minimum points specifically for corridor segments. Just speculating.


----------



## CHamilton

jis said:


> There has been mention of corridor specific incentives specially from California. Maybe they will play a role in instituting such, and that may include minimum points specifically for corridor segments. Just speculating.


I hope something like that happens. And it wouldn't be unprecedented. The Cascades corridor had a "frequent traveler" program where riders got Alaska Airlines points even before AGR existed.


----------



## jis

That still leaves the LDs out in the cold. I sincerely hope that the bonus points issue for Sleeper fares will get corrected. It just does not seem to make sense not to give Sleeper users at least some bonus in line with at least corridor BC, though logically (according to my logic of course) sleepers should be equated with First Class in Acela since both have food included. Maybe Sleeper with no food a la the Star could be equated to Business Class.


----------



## Ryan

tonys96 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they're not struggling to fill trains.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. If you say so.
Click to expand...

I don't say so, the data does.


----------



## jebr

Ryan said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they're not struggling to fill trains.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. If you say so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't say so, the data does.
Click to expand...

Source?


----------



## tonys96

Remember the old adage:"lies, damned lies and statistics"......

Anyone can find "data" to back up their own predetermined position on any subject.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Amtrak's accounting system makes Medicine Men,Wall Street Hustlers, Politicians and TV Evangelists seem honest!

Take their numbers with a grain of salt!

You're right Tony, as was Mark Twain, who said it first!


----------



## Rail Freak

We can all complain til the cows come home!!! I enjoyed it while it lasted & I'll miss you folks on AU!!!!!!!!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they're not struggling to fill trains.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. If you say so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't say so, the data does.
Click to expand...

What data?


----------



## tonys96

jimhudson said:


> Amtrak's accounting system makes Medicine Men,Wall Street Hustlers, Politicians and TV Evangelists seem honest!
> 
> Take their numbers with a grain of salt!
> 
> You're right Tony, as was Mark Twain, who said it first!


Agreed, Jim! Here is a great example of it. While I have no idea as to the veracity of any of the numbers used, here is something that says the NEC is the big $$$ loser of the system:

http://www.railpac.org/2015/01/13/more-on-the-amtrak-long-distance-trains-performance-vs-the-nec/

Note: This is _*just *_used as an example of someone using "statistics" to bolster their own position......


----------



## jis

Yep. That is our old friend Andrew Selden for you. He is quite capable of coming with a statistical argument showing that the Sun always rises in the west.


----------



## Ryan

Saying that you're already going to disbelieve any numbers I put forth saves me the effort of pulling together a bunch of information and waste my time, so thanks.

I'll just take the easy way out and leave this here:

http://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/1038/ld_2014.pdf

In the 6 years 2009-2014, ridership has increased in every year save one.

As of July 2015 (most recently available monthly report), ridership is up 3.5% YoY and 6.5% above budget. We'll see what August and September brings, but it looks likely that 6 out of the last 7 years, Amtrak will see a ridership increase in LD trains.


----------



## tonys96

I do not think ANYONE disputes that ridership has increases over the past few years. However, there is a legitimate argument that can be made that the bar was _*very*_ low to begin with, so increases in ridership, however good they are, simply do not equate to "they are not struggling to fill trains". A 90% to 95% load factor, per seat mile, would, however.


----------



## tonys96

jis said:


> Yep. That is our old friend Andrew Selden for you. He is quite capable of coming with a statistical argument showing that the Sun always rises in the west.


----------



## jebr

tonys96 said:


> I do not think ANYONE disputes that ridership has increases over the past few years. However, there is a legitimate argument that can be made that the bar was _*very*_ low to begin with, so increases in ridership, however good they are, simply do not equate to "they are not struggling to fill trains". A 90% to 95% load factor, per seat mile, would, however.


A 90-95% seat load factor is something even the airlines rarely attain, and is arguably even less practical for long distance trains. If Amtrak is having 90-95% load factors per seat mile, it's selling out massively on a lot of city pairs on a lot of travel dates. Just as an example, I will sometimes take the train from SCD - WIN to visit family and get out of town for a bit. It's unlikely that they can turn over my seat perfectly at SCD or WIN (at least in the aggregate...there might be 10 people getting on the train at WIN but 12 people getting off.) There's also some days (and times of the year) that are slower than others...the Empire Builder will almost certainly have less passengers on a Tuesday in February than it will on a Saturday in July. If Amtrak has to attain 90-95% load factors before people believe that they are filling the trains, I don't think those people will ever believe that Amtrak is filling trains.


----------



## Ryan

I was already prepared for Tony to disbelieve whatever I posted, so I don't particularly much care what arbitrary standards he can come up with to be satisfied. Somehow, my life will be complete without his approval.

Fine, they're struggling to fill trains. Just less so than in previous years.


----------



## tonys96

jebr said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think ANYONE disputes that ridership has increases over the past few years. However, there is a legitimate argument that can be made that the bar was _*very*_ low to begin with, so increases in ridership, however good they are, simply do not equate to "they are not struggling to fill trains". A 90% to 95% load factor, per seat mile, would, however.
> 
> 
> 
> A 90-95% seat load factor is something even the airlines rarely attain, and is arguably even less practical for long distance trains. If Amtrak is having 90-95% load factors per seat mile, it's selling out massively on a lot of city pairs on a lot of travel dates. Just as an example, I will sometimes take the train from SCD - WIN to visit family and get out of town for a bit. It's unlikely that they can turn over my seat perfectly at SCD or WIN (at least in the aggregate...there might be 10 people getting on the train at WIN but 12 people getting off.) There's also some days (and times of the year) that are slower than others...the Empire Builder will almost certainly have less passengers on a Tuesday in February than it will on a Saturday in July. If Amtrak has to attain 90-95% load factors before people believe that they are filling the trains, I don't think those people will ever believe that Amtrak is filling trains.
Click to expand...

Oh, I absolutely agree with you! However, I cannot fathom calling a 50%-60% load factor, over time, (at very best) anything but "struggling to fill trains"...........I believe the semantics are where our differences lie. I think we agree on the situation.

On peak travel times, trains can and will fill up, even to over capacity! I have ridden (rode?) in the SSL on the TE for the entirety of a couple of trips due to there being no coach seats open. And enjoyed it! However, that is the anomaly, not the rule. Last time I checked the load factor for the TE was around 70%. So there are days there are very few pax on the train, that is to be expected. It is a struggle to get the load factor to even 75% every day!

Airlines aggregate in the high 70%s to about 83% since 2009, and are profitable.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/Data_Elements.aspx?Data=5

Over any given amount of time, selling only 50% to 60% of your fixed inventory product, while having fixed costs no matter how much is sold, will not be a winning business strategy. Raising that number can help get Congress off of Amtrak's backside. Seeing this, I believe Amtrak *is* struggling to raise that load factor, and _is improving nearly every year, as was pointed out earlier_. *But it is still a struggle*. One that I hope Amtrak can win.

Bottom line: I sincerely believe and HOPE that Amtrak is struggling to fill trains, each and every day. It is vital to the survival of Amtrak. IMHO.


----------



## tonys96

Ryan said:


> I was already prepared for Tony to disbelieve whatever I posted, so I don't particularly much care what arbitrary standards he can come up with to be satisfied. Somehow, my life will be complete without his approval.
> 
> Fine, they're struggling to fill trains. Just less so than in previous years.


Agreed with wholeheartedly!


----------



## jis

Ultimately load factor just by itself is not an indication of much. The difference between RASM and CASM and also the goals of the service provision is what matters. You could get a large positive number in odd situations for the overall system even with not the best load factors. The goal of service provision may not be to get a large positive number but something else. Supply, demand, requirements of the service purpose and price elasticity plays into that in complex ways.


----------



## PPorro

SarahZ said:


> PPorro said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is going to be real simple (I hope?) How much is a one zone redemption from Chicago to Dallas *NOW*?
> 
> 
> 
> 15,000 points for a roomette. 25,000 for a bedroom.
Click to expand...

OK I'll start at that. I used Dallas as a simple example, actually going to be two zones, on CZ from Chicago to Elko, NV. (Or Reno? it's the same price) 30,000 points and I have 64,000 right now.

Found the return trip using Amsnag, which didn't show on Amtrak, still don't know why, but it's not an issue anymore.

Returning CZ to SAC, (nine+ hour layover) to Portland and ending in Wolf Point, MT. One zone. 15,000

Then book Wolf Point to Chicago, IL one zone. 15,000

4,000 points to spare. 

If I'm reading this right, I need to book before January 2016 - on the old zone system?

I haven't received the new card / old card information yet? I don't much care if I use one bank card or another, if I get points for AGR. Part of the old contract and new is, your points are valid as long as you have the credit card. There's also some 36 month limit, must have activity, which is nothing, considering it's a charge card.

For me that means, I can't cancel the old card, without risking losing my points, even thought we will be on the new card? And if the new card is a fee card and I decline to join, will my points be lost, because I don't have an active AGR card? Kind of messy?

I wonder how that part of the old points, new points will be handled, transferred or explained.


----------



## PPorro

tonys96 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they're not struggling to fill trains.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. If you say so.
Click to expand...

Well I have to look at this in the literal sense. The ridership is UP, which is true, but LD service is losing more money every year.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/interactives/2013/AmtrakRoutes

I don't know about "filling trains" or percentages of seats and room occupied, but if more ridership is part of the $614,000,000 deficit, counting heads as an argument, isn't what matters?

Follow the link. Empire Builder ridership up 56% and lost $54 million dollars? Southwest Chief up 38% and lost $66 million dollars. Calif. Zephyr up 29% and lost $62 million dollars.

Blaming AGR for "free rides" and losses is kind of silly too. We earn these points, it encourages us to use the credit card that AGR benefits from the deal with the card company. The points are used for more than free rides, it's also promotion and beneficial, when there's an open seat or room, that would be better used by someone with points, than riding empty?

Unless the problem is, that LD travel loses money on the paying customers, so we are even more of a loss? :huh:

Whatever it is, I'm happy for the plan we had and hope that there will still be some incentive for me to continue. I've been using the AGR card as much as possible for years, looking forward to my big rail trip vacation. The whole Idea is not the destination, but the experience of enjoying the trip itself. That's where rail is an all time winner and can't be replaced by any other commercial transportation.


----------



## newlatidude

jimhudson said:


> And still no answer as to why the 10% point Penalty for Cancellations of AGR Award trips, or MODIFICATIONS!!!!? more than 14 days out, or the draconian 20% Penalty if less than 14 days out that no-one else faces!!!! Except that Select Exec are exempt!! Why??


Another case of parroting the current airline frequent flyer programs, which isn't a good thing these days.

In some cases certain airlines are even worse as far as changes. With Delta, for example, award ticket cancelation less than 72 hours before departure results in forfeiture of the entire amount of miles (though if one calls with a reasonable sounding emergency such as a death in the family, some have reported success getting the miles reinstated).

American Airlines is slightly more generous with modifications, where date changes to award tickets are permitted without penalty (assuming availability for the new dates). But cancelation or changes to origin/destination still incur penalties.


----------



## TinCan782

PPorro said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PPorro said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is going to be real simple (I hope?) How much is a one zone redemption from Chicago to Dallas *NOW*?
> 
> 
> 
> 15,000 points for a roomette. 25,000 for a bedroom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK I'll start at that. I used Dallas as a simple example, actually going to be two zones, on CZ from Chicago to Elko, NV. (Or Reno? it's the same price) 30,000 points and I have 64,000 right now.
> 
> Found the return trip using Amsnag, which didn't show on Amtrak, still don't know why, but it's not an issue anymore.
> 
> Returning CZ to SAC, (nine+ hour layover) to Portland and ending in Wolf Point, MT. One zone. 15,000
> 
> Then book Wolf Point to Chicago, IL one zone. 15,000
> 
> 4,000 points to spare.
> 
> If I'm reading this right, I need to book before January 2016 - on the old zone system?
> 
> I haven't received the new card / old card information yet? I don't much care if I use one bank card or another, if I get points for AGR. Part of the old contract and new is, your points are valid as long as you have the credit card. There's also some 36 month limit, must have activity, which is nothing, considering it's a charge card.
> 
> For me that means, I can't cancel the old card, without risking losing my points, even thought we will be on the new card? And if the new card is a fee card and I decline to join, will my points be lost, because I don't have an active AGR card? Kind of messy?
> 
> I wonder how that part of the old points, new points will be handled, transferred or explained.
Click to expand...

Any previously earned points will still be there after Jan 24 regardless of credit card status. If you don't have an AGR credit card, you have 36 months to have some kind of activity which will reset the timer. Currently, you have to take a paid trip for this to happen. After Jan 24, the reset is a lot more generous. From AGR: "_We’ve expanded qualifying account activity to include all point earning or redemption activity (including points earned with partners or promotions). So as long as your Amtrak Guest Rewards account shows point earning or redemption activity within 36 months, your points won’t expire._" If you have the AGR credit card (either annual fee or no annual fee), the 36 months does not apply.

Yes, you need to book your trip before Jan 24 to use the outgoing "zone system". The trip itself can take place after the 24th. As long as you do not modify that trip, it will remain as originally booked (AGR zone system).


----------



## publife

PPorro said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PPorro said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is going to be real simple (I hope?) How much is a one zone redemption from Chicago to Dallas *NOW*?
> 
> 
> 
> 15,000 points for a roomette. 25,000 for a bedroom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK I'll start at that. I used Dallas as a simple example, actually going to be two zones, on CZ from Chicago to Elko, NV. (Or Reno? it's the same price) 30,000 points and I have 64,000 right now.
> 
> Found the return trip using Amsnag, which didn't show on Amtrak, still don't know why, but it's not an issue anymore.
> 
> Returning CZ to SAC, (nine+ hour layover) to Portland and ending in Wolf Point, MT. One zone. 15,000
> 
> Then book Wolf Point to Chicago, IL one zone. 15,000
> 
> 4,000 points to spare.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure you're quite right with those numbers - it's not actually 15,000 flat for each zone, unless you're planning on getting off the train for an overnight/extended stop somewhere. Your one zone CHI-DAL is 15,000 - but the two zone to RNO on the CZ is only 20k, not 30k. It would only cost 30k points if you were stopping off in a zone border city, either as a destination or a method of ensuring a specific routing.

I think you get that basic concept, because you know you'll need to break the return trip up in order to be routed via the EB back home - that will be 30,000 the way you have it planned. Unless you were planning on staying in MT for a bit, though, if I were you, I'd pay cash for a RNO-SAC segment, and take a two zone / 20,000 trip (still via CS/EB) back to Chicago.

If your goal is just round trip transport to NV without stopovers, you could save a lot of points by slightly changing the way you book it. For the cash cost of one short leg, you could have another two zone redemption! I'd happily pay for that sleeper leg from RNO if instead you wanted to share those saved points with me ;-)


----------



## neroden

tonys96 said:


> Oh, I absolutely agree with you! However, I cannot fathom calling a 50%-60% load factor, over time, (at very best) anything but "struggling to fill trains"


You're just wrong. 50%-60% load factor over the course of a long run is basically full for a train.
This is how it works, using a stylized example. Suppose you have a train which stops at a bunch of cities, crosses a mountain pass, and then stops at a bunch more cities. The train is empty at one end of the run. It accumulates passengers as it stops at intermediate stops. When it crosses the mountain pass, the train is completely jam-packed full, standing-room-only. Then the train starts draining passengers out as it heads towards the other end of the run.

When you average the load factor across the length of the run, it ends up being 50%-60% load factor. But the train is completely full across the mountain pass. And the travel demand is "across the pass", so anyone who wants to cross the pass -- regardless of what city they start or finish at -- sees a sold-out train.

Some trains have more favorable geographical distribution of passenger demand (and they can get higher load factors), but the situation I just described is *typical*. The same is true with roads, incidentally.

Since it doesn't cost anything significant to drag along empty coaches behind a train, you size the length of the train according to the demand across the mountain pass, and just haul the additional cars empty the rest of the way. This "lowers your load factor" but it doesn't *cost* anything significant.

Airlines don't do this because nearly all their flights are point-to-point, because it's expensive for an airplane to stop. (It's relatively cheap for a train to stop en route.) So airplanes end up with people taking transfers to smaller and smaller puddle-jumpers as they head further away from "the mountain crossing". The train might as well keep going straight through.

This causes overall train load factors to appear lower than for airplanes, but it doesn't mean anything economically. (Well, it means discount tickets should be offered for trips which stay out of the peak segment, which "don't cross the mountain pass".)

The interesting number is the load factor at the *peak occupancy part of the route*, which is hard to measure from Amtrak statistics. If that's low, then you do have an issue. But for Amtrak, on the vast majority of trains I've taken end-to-end, there's been one route segment where the train typically fills up -- showing that the trains are pretty much full.

-- For Empire Service, it's the final New York City approach.

-- For Pacific Surfliner, it's Oceanside, interestingly. (Because people who aren't crossing Oceanside take Metrolink or Coaster.)

-- For Empire Builder, it's MSP-CHI.

-- For the Lake Shore Limited, it's South Bend - Elkhart and again on the final New York City approach; having two separate peak segments helps the LSL. It's pretty full overnight too. It has good characteristics.

-- For the NE Regionals, it's New York City to Metropark (unsurprisingly).

-- For the California Zephyr, it's actually Denver to Winter Park. (But the whole Denver-Chicago run is pretty crowded too. It *empties out* west of Grand Junction and doesn't start filling up again until Reno.)

-- For the Southwest Chief, it's Galesburg to Kansas City. (Because there are other trains Galesburg - Chicago; this is mostly Chicago-Kansas City traffic.)

-- I couldn't actually tell for the Capitol Limited since I basically slept through the entire trip, so didn't see the other passengers, but maybe it's an exception.

Consider yourself educated about this basic characteristic of train service.

It would be nice to improve the load factor by filling up the empty seats on the emptiest section of the trip, but think about how to get more people to ride from Niagara Falls to Buffalo, or from Grand Forks to Spokane, and you start seeing that it's a hard problem. Many routes have a "big draw" on only one end of the line. On Empire Service, for instance, nearly everyone is travelling to or from New York City, so the Niagara Falls end is inevitably half-empty. You try to put a "big draw" on both ends of the line, and you get a New York - Chicago train like the LSL -- but then it's emptier in the *middle*. The NEC is lucky to have a lot of different major cities fairly evenly spaced, but it's still most crowded from NY to Philadelphia.


----------



## neroden

PPorro said:


> Well I have to look at this in the literal sense. The ridership is UP, which is true, but LD service is losing more money every year.


I've explained before that this is nonsense and gibberish. Basically, this is Amtrak's overhead costs (which don't change regardless of what services are provided) being allocated to trains in an arbitrary and capricious manner. Overhead is up in recent years, which is a bad thing and I'd like to know why It's happening, but it means nothing regarding whether LD service is "losing more money" or "losing less money".


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Then again NEC lost the 500 and 750 Acela minimums between select city pairs.
> 
> I think the system was always biased towards the NEC. It was most likely not a coincidence that it was introduced with the Acelas. Also the 500 minimum is unlikely to be just a coincidence that it is exactly the same number of minimum miles per segment that Continental had back then, and it was also unlikely to be a coincidence that Amtrak points were transferable to Continental miles one for one. The rest of AGR was bolted onto the basic need to make Acela competitive with airlines on the NEC, at which it did succeed BTW.
> 
> I am not saying that therefore things should not be improved viz a viz LD service. But to forget the origins would lead one astray in the attempts to understand the evolution.


I will speak as someone from upstate NY and point out that the new AGR system is definitively better for me than the old system. The new system amounts to 5.8% "cash back". (Took me a while to calculate that. You spend $100, you get 200 points, this gets you about $5.80 worth of discount on your fare.)

I think the new system will be more attractive to those on the "penumbras" of the NEC -- riding the longer connecting-to-NEC corridors or going between the East Coast and Chicago. The old AGR system was never ever worth cashing points for short corridor trips. It also gave a pretty bad deal for single-overnight roomette trips which crossed between the eastern and midwestern zones (e.g. Syracuse-Chicago or DC-Chicago or NY-Chicago or Boston-Chicago). And my shortest trips were never cheap enough for the 100 point minimum to mean anything (with the exception of a Syracuse-Utica trip once).

The people complaining about the changes seem to be people who earned their points shuttling on the short corridors out of Chicago or in California -- and spent them on double-overnight sleeper trips. In short, this change is bad for Californians and for Chicagoans who "look west". For Chicagoans who "look east" or people along the longer corridors which connect to the NEC, however, I think the change is an improvement. 

Anyway, I've been advocating that Amtrak focus on expanding the market for the corridors which connect to the NEC, and focus on improving the NEC-Chicago routes -- so from my POV this is a good set of changes.


----------



## neroden

tonys96 said:


> This is not what my experience shows. I cannot recall a single 20 something in a sleeper in any of my sleeper excursions.


That's because most 20-somethings don't have the *money* to afford Amtrak's sleepers.

I've met several 20-something couples in sleepers; they were almost all "I own my own successful business" types, with a smattering of trust-fund types.


----------



## Ryan

When I was a 20-something in a sleeper, I was the "sick of riding coach guy that learned how to get an AGR credit card to rack up points" guy.


----------



## SarahZ

I've run into many 20-somethings in sleepers over the years.

I didn't ask how they afforded it because that's none of my business, and it's rude to make assumptions about someone's financial situation based on their appearance.


----------



## JayPea

On my recently completed nearly week long trip involving several different trains, I noticed several 20somethings in the sleepers.


----------



## neroden

SarahZ said:


> I've run into many 20-somethings in sleepers over the years.
> 
> I didn't ask how they afforded it because that's none of my business, and it's rude to make assumptions about someone's financial situation based on their appearance.


It's perhaps surprising how often people who own their own businesses will mention it in casual conversation -- at least when talking to someone else self-employed, like me. I think this is because everyone's first social question in this country is "What do you do?" meaning "What is your job?", which means it can't be evaded.

I do think there's something else going on here: people who own their own businesses can make the choice to travel by train for business travel, even if they're not really doing that well financially. So they often do. Employees often don't have the option to take trains for business travel even if they want to, thanks to Corporate Policy.


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I absolutely agree with you! However, I cannot fathom calling a 50%-60% load factor, over time, (at very best) anything but "struggling to fill trains"
> 
> 
> 
> You're just wrong. 50%-60% load factor over the course of a long run is basically full for a train.
> This is how it works, using a stylized example. Suppose you have a train which stops at a bunch of cities, crosses a mountain pass, and then stops at a bunch more cities. The train is empty at one end of the run. It accumulates passengers as it stops at intermediate stops. When it crosses the mountain pass, the train is completely jam-packed full, standing-room-only. Then the train starts draining passengers out as it heads towards the other end of the run.
> 
> When you average the load factor across the length of the run, it ends up being 50%-60% load factor. But the train is completely full across the mountain pass. And the travel demand is "across the pass", so anyone who wants to cross the pass -- regardless of what city they start or finish at -- sees a sold-out train.
> 
> Some trains have more favorable geographical distribution of passenger demand (and they can get higher load factors), but the situation I just described is *typical*. The same is true with roads, incidentally.
> 
> Since it doesn't cost anything significant to drag along empty coaches behind a train, you size the length of the train according to the demand across the mountain pass, and just haul the additional cars empty the rest of the way. This "lowers your load factor" but it doesn't *cost* anything significant.
> 
> Airlines don't do this because nearly all their flights are point-to-point, because it's expensive for an airplane to stop. (It's relatively cheap for a train to stop en route.) So airplanes end up with people taking transfers to smaller and smaller puddle-jumpers as they head further away from "the mountain crossing". The train might as well keep going straight through.
> 
> This causes overall train load factors to appear lower than for airplanes, but it doesn't mean anything economically. (Well, it means discount tickets should be offered for trips which stay out of the peak segment, which "don't cross the mountain pass".)
> 
> The interesting number is the load factor at the *peak occupancy part of the route*, which is hard to measure from Amtrak statistics. If that's low, then you do have an issue. But for Amtrak, on the vast majority of trains I've taken end-to-end, there's been one route segment where the train typically fills up -- showing that the trains are pretty much full.
> 
> -- For Empire Service, it's the final New York City approach.
> 
> -- For Pacific Surfliner, it's Oceanside, interestingly. (Because people who aren't crossing Oceanside take Metrolink or Coaster.)
> 
> -- For Empire Builder, it's MSP-CHI.
> 
> -- For the Lake Shore Limited, it's South Bend - Elkhart and again on the final New York City approach; having two separate peak segments helps the LSL. It's pretty full overnight too. It has good characteristics.
> 
> -- For the NE Regionals, it's New York City to Metropark (unsurprisingly).
> 
> -- For the California Zephyr, it's actually Denver to Winter Park. (But the whole Denver-Chicago run is pretty crowded too. It *empties out* west of Grand Junction and doesn't start filling up again until Reno.)
> 
> -- For the Southwest Chief, it's Galesburg to Kansas City. (Because there are other trains Galesburg - Chicago; this is mostly Chicago-Kansas City traffic.)
> 
> -- I couldn't actually tell for the Capitol Limited since I basically slept through the entire trip, so didn't see the other passengers, but maybe it's an exception.
> 
> Consider yourself educated about this basic characteristic of train service.
> 
> It would be nice to improve the load factor by filling up the empty seats on the emptiest section of the trip, but think about how to get more people to ride from Niagara Falls to Buffalo, or from Grand Forks to Spokane, and you start seeing that it's a hard problem. Many routes have a "big draw" on only one end of the line. On Empire Service, for instance, nearly everyone is travelling to or from New York City, so the Niagara Falls end is inevitably half-empty. You try to put a "big draw" on both ends of the line, and you get a New York - Chicago train like the LSL -- but then it's emptier in the *middle*. The NEC is lucky to have a lot of different major cities fairly evenly spaced, but it's still most crowded from NY to Philadelphia.
Click to expand...

RE:Since it doesn't cost anything significant to drag along empty coaches behind a train, you size the length of the train according to the demand across the mountain pass, and just haul the additional cars empty the rest of the way. This "lowers your load factor" but it doesn't *cost* anything significant.

Ummmmm.......labor? Ummmmm....those fixed overhead costs mentioned in post #750? Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip? I have no problem with your scenario......you got data on the "load factor" of the system as you want to describe it (the "mountain pass")?


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> PPorro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I have to look at this in the literal sense. The ridership is UP, which is true, but LD service is losing more money every year.
> 
> 
> 
> I've explained before that this is nonsense and gibberish. Basically, this is Amtrak's overhead costs (which don't change regardless of what services are provided) being allocated to trains in an arbitrary and capricious manner. Overhead is up in recent years, which is a bad thing and I'd like to know why It's happening, but it means nothing regarding whether LD service is "losing more money" or "losing less money".
Click to expand...

Re: "Overhead is up in recent years, which is a bad thing and I'd like to know why It's happening,"

​Could be all those trains only carrying pax across the " mountain pass" mentioned above?


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then again NEC lost the 500 and 750 Acela minimums between select city pairs.
> 
> I think the system was always biased towards the NEC. It was most likely not a coincidence that it was introduced with the Acelas. Also the 500 minimum is unlikely to be just a coincidence that it is exactly the same number of minimum miles per segment that Continental had back then, and it was also unlikely to be a coincidence that Amtrak points were transferable to Continental miles one for one. The rest of AGR was bolted onto the basic need to make Acela competitive with airlines on the NEC, at which it did succeed BTW.
> 
> I am not saying that therefore things should not be improved viz a viz LD service. But to forget the origins would lead one astray in the attempts to understand the evolution.
> 
> 
> 
> I will speak as someone from upstate NY and point out that the new AGR system is definitively better for me than the old system. The new system amounts to 5.8% "cash back". (Took me a while to calculate that. You spend $100, you get 200 points, this gets you about $5.80 worth of discount on your fare.)
> 
> I think the new system will be more attractive to those on the "penumbras" of the NEC -- riding the longer connecting-to-NEC corridors or going between the East Coast and Chicago. The old AGR system was never ever worth cashing points for short corridor trips. It also gave a pretty bad deal for single-overnight roomette trips which crossed between the eastern and midwestern zones (e.g. Syracuse-Chicago or DC-Chicago or NY-Chicago or Boston-Chicago). And my shortest trips were never cheap enough for the 100 point minimum to mean anything (with the exception of a Syracuse-Utica trip once).
> 
> The people complaining about the changes seem to be people who earned their points shuttling on the short corridors out of Chicago or in California -- and spent them on double-overnight sleeper trips. In short, this change is bad for Californians and for Chicagoans who "look west". For Chicagoans who "look east" or people along the longer corridors which connect to the NEC, however, I think the change is an improvement.
> 
> Anyway, I've been advocating that Amtrak focus on expanding the market for the corridors which connect to the NEC, and focus on improving the NEC-Chicago routes -- so from my POV this is a good set of changes.
Click to expand...

Good for you!

Not so much for many others........


----------



## Ispolkom

tonys96 said:


> RE:Since it doesn't cost anything significant to drag along empty coaches behind a train, you size the length of the train according to the demand across the mountain pass, and just haul the additional cars empty the rest of the way. This "lowers your load factor" but it doesn't *cost* anything significant.
> 
> Ummmmm.......labor? Ummmmm....those fixed overhead costs mentioned in post #750? Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip? I have no problem with your scenario......you got data on the "load factor" of the system as you want to describe it (the "mountain pass")?


If you have the extra cars. Amtrak doesn't.


----------



## neroden

tonys96 said:


> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?


Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. The price buckets are managed specifically to make this happen.

There are some exceptions. Those few trains have not been managed properly. This is actually very uncommon.

Most of your "50% load factor" trains are exactly like that -- they're full at some point in the trip. Get that through your head and you'll understand what's going on a lot better. If you want to have an informed opinion, have to understand what your metrics actually mean, not blindly copy habits from looking at airlines.

As for labor costs, it typically costs more to switch the cars on and off than it does to run 'em through. Given Amtrak's coach attendant staffing policies, it usually literally costs nothing in on-board labor to add another car -- only if you hit a particular threshold of cars do you have to add another attendant.

Amtrak's overhead is almost unrelated to how full the trains are. Information Technology (this is sucking up money like nobody's business right now), Ticketing, Procurement, station maintenance.... I'm actually not clear on what the major causes of increased overhead are, other than IT (which is definitely part of it). But none of it has to do with running empty cars around; that's cheap.

This is something which a lot of ignorant people who haven't studied the business don't understand about train service. It's all fixed costs. There are very few variable costs. But there are huge huge, huge fixed costs. Most utilities (telecoms, electricity, roads) have this characteristic, but railroads have it to an extreme degree. I think only water supply systems are more extreme in how high the fixed cost / variable cost ratio is.

This is why Woody always says "the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak". This means something very specific in business terms. Expansion, for maximum financial gain, needs to happen in this priority order:

-- more cars on the same train

-- more trains on the same routes stopping at the same stations

-- more (unstaffed if possible, but might require staff) stops on the same route

-- /finally/, more routes connecting to those routes

Leverage the fixed costs.

Somewhere in there you should add:

-- more train runs per trainset, enabled by faster trip times -- faster trains are cheaper to run *and* raise more revenue

-- run on time, because it costs less (in overtime etc.) and raises much more revenue (happier customers)

As with all businesses with high fixed costs and low variable costs, it is essential to get to high volume. At prices which cover variable costs and leave some margin to cover that huge overhead.

Now, if you're running a railroad, you *may* have a problem if you have a route which doesn't have enough inherent demand to get to high volume at that price. (If it's a "feeder route" which feeds volume into another route, you may not have a problem.)

I think it's quite obvious that the routes of the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Cardinal, and several of the other so-called "long distance" trains have *plenty* of demand. They simply have not been expanded in the way they need to be.

Frankly, the three trains from the West Coast to Chicago do have a problem. I may have mentioned that you can typically get a roomette from Chicago to Los Angeles (or San Francisco) for the same price as a roomette from Syracuse, NY to Chicago. This indicates much lower demand on these western routes.

Looking at load factor in isolation is quite misleading. It's not going to tell you which trains Amtrak is having trouble filling. Pretty much all of Amtrak's trains are price-managed to fill up the train at some point on the route.

Instead, you need to look at *ticket prices*. On some of those trains, the prices on the peak segment are getting quite high, high enough that people on this forum are complaining about being priced out; those trains are doing great and need expansion. *Those trains include most of the Eastern so-called long-distance trains.* On other trains, the prices are much lower, they've been pushed much lower in order to fill up the peak segment -- and *that*, the *price*, not the load factor, is the sign that you have weak demand and are "struggling to fill trains".

There are routes where Amtrak is struggling (by lowering prices) to fill trains (including several state-sponsored corridor routes). There are routes (including several of the eastern Long Distance routes, and arguably the Coast Starlight) where Amtrak keeps raising prices as the train keeps filling up. You cannot tell which is which by looking at load factor.


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. The price buckets are managed specifically to make this happen.There are some exceptions. Those few trains have not been managed properly. This is actually very uncommon.Most of your "50% load factor" trains are exactly like that -- they're full at some point in the trip. Get that through your head and you'll understand what's going on a lot better. If you want to have an informed opinion, have to understand what your metrics actually mean, not blindly copy habits from looking at airlines.As for labor costs, it typically costs more to switch the cars on and off than it does to run 'em through. Given Amtrak's coach attendant staffing policies, it usually literally costs nothing in on-board labor to add another car -- only if you hit a particular threshold of cars do you have to add another attendant.Amtrak's overhead is almost unrelated to how full the trains are. Information Technology (this is sucking up money like nobody's business right now), Ticketing, Procurement, station maintenance.... I'm actually not clear on what the major causes of increased overhead are, other than IT (which is definitely part of it). But none of it has to do with running empty cars around; that's cheap.This is something which a lot of ignorant people who haven't studied the business don't understand about train service. It's all fixed costs. There are very few variable costs. But there are huge huge, huge fixed costs. Most utilities (telecoms, electricity, roads) have this characteristic, but railroads have it to an extreme degree. I think only water supply systems are more extreme in how high the fixed cost / variable cost ratio is.This is why Woody always says "the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak". This means something very specific in business terms. Expansion, for maximum financial gain, needs to happen in this priority order:-- more cars on the same train-- more trains on the same routes stopping at the same stations-- more (unstaffed if possible, but might require staff) stops on the same route-- /finally/, more routes connecting to those routesLeverage the fixed costs.Somewhere in there you should add:-- more train runs per trainset, enabled by faster trip times -- faster trains are cheaper to run *and* raise more revenue-- run on time, because it costs less (in overtime etc.) and raises much more revenue (happier customers)As with all businesses with high fixed costs and low variable costs, it is essential to get to high volume. At prices which cover variable costs and leave some margin to cover that huge overhead.Now, if you're running a railroad, you *may* have a problem if you have a route which doesn't have enough inherent demand to get to high volume at that price. (If it's a "feeder route" which feeds volume into another route, you may not have a problem.)I think it's quite obvious that the routes of the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Cardinal, and several of the other so-called "long distance" trains have *plenty* of demand. They simply have not been expanded in the way they need to be.Frankly, the three trains from the West Coast to Chicago do have a problem. I may have mentioned that you can typically get a roomette from Chicago to Los Angeles (or San Francisco) for the same price as a roomette from Syracuse, NY to Chicago. This indicates much lower demand on these western routes.Looking at load factor in isolation is quite misleading. It's not going to tell you which trains Amtrak is having trouble filling. Pretty much all of Amtrak's trains are price-managed to fill up the train at some point on the route.Instead, you need to look at *ticket prices*. On some of those trains, the prices on the peak segment are getting quite high, high enough that people on this forum are complaining about being priced out; those trains are doing great and need expansion. *Those trains include most of the Eastern so-called long-distance trains.* On other trains, the prices are much lower, they've been pushed much lower in order to fill up the peak segment -- and *that*, the *price*, not the load factor, is the sign that you have weak demand and are "struggling to fill trains".There are routes where Amtrak is struggling (by lowering prices) to fill trains (including several state-sponsored corridor routes). There are routes (including several of the eastern Long Distance routes, and arguably the Coast Starlight) where Amtrak keeps raising prices as the train keeps filling up. You cannot tell which is which by looking at load factor.
Click to expand...

OK......you think Best Buy selling product during Christmas season and having empty stores during the other 10 months of the year is a good business model and they would not be struggling? Same scenario.......Amtrak having more seats sold at a single point in a 1200 mile trip is sufficient? I simply disagree and believe that Amtrak is and should be struggling to fill these empty seats, in order to be a successful business.Best Buy should and is also struggling to fill stores the other 10 months of the year. And I hope both succeed.


----------



## tonys96

neroden said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. .
Click to expand...

"Citation needed".


----------



## SarahZ

tonys96 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Citation needed".
Click to expand...

Your constant use of that phrase is maddening, especially since it's so easy for the people you use that against to prove what they are saying. There are tons of ridership reports posted on this forum that you are free to read.


----------



## Ryan

He's trying to be clever and poke at me, but I'm not interested in yet another bad faith discussion. Nathaniel's explanation was excellent, and if if Tony remains a skeptic, hopefully others reading it will learn something.


----------



## tonys96

SarahZ said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Citation needed".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your constant use of that phrase is maddening, especially since it's so easy for the people you use that against to prove what they are saying. There are tons of ridership reports posted on this forum that you are free to read.
Click to expand...

Would be easy for Neroden to link to one then, wouldn't it?


----------



## tonys96

Ryan said:


> He's trying to be clever and poke at me, but I'm not interested in yet another bad faith discussion. Nathaniel's explanation was excellent, and if if Tony remains a skeptic, hopefully others reading it will learn something.


Sorry that you feel this way. However, my post had absolutely nothing to do with you at all. Not sure why you feel that it did. :unsure:


----------



## D.P. Roberts

tonys96 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Citation needed".
Click to expand...

Here's an interesting one:

http://www.unitedrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/URPA-SPECIAL-REPORT-February-2014.pdf

After reading neroden's post, I really wanted to understand the whole load factor thing, and this article made a lot of sense. First of all, "load factor" is measured entirely differently on a train rather than an airplane (as neroden pointed out). Amtrak's load factor isn't the percentage of empty seats at any point in time, it's passenger miles divided by total seat miles. So, once you know how long the average passenger travels (for example, 500-800 miles on the Empire Builder), and you know the load factor (roughly 62%), it's easy to see that each seat turns over on the EB's route several times per trip. The odds of filling up all those random remainders is pretty low.

As the authors point out, Amtrak's constant touting of "ridership" actually increases the perception of the NEC's importance as compared to the long-distance network. If you look at passenger miles traveled, the long distance network actually carries a billion more passenger miles each year than the NEC!


----------



## tonys96

D.P. Roberts said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Citation needed".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's an interesting one:
> 
> http://www.unitedrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/URPA-SPECIAL-REPORT-February-2014.pdf
> 
> After reading neroden's post, I really wanted to understand the whole load factor thing, and this article made a lot of sense. First of all, "load factor" is measured entirely differently on a train rather than an airplane (as neroden pointed out). Amtrak's load factor isn't the percentage of empty seats at any point in time, it's passenger miles divided by total seat miles. So, once you know how long the average passenger travels (for example, 500-800 miles on the Empire Builder), and you know the load factor (roughly 62%), it's easy to see that each seat turns over on the EB's route several times per trip. The odds of filling up all those random remainders is pretty low.
> 
> As the authors point out, Amtrak's constant touting of "ridership" actually increases the perception of the NEC's importance as compared to the long-distance network. If you look at passenger miles traveled, the long distance network actually carries a billion more passenger miles each year than the NEC!
Click to expand...

Thanks!

According to your link, a direct quote is " _Amtrak is consistently unable to sell half or more of its inventory (of "available seat miles") in the NEC and other short corridors._"..........

I consistently hear the exact opposite, that it is the LD system that is hampering Amtrak and the NEC is the only profitable part of the system.

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect there. :unsure: Which is true?


----------



## jis

Profitability has a complex link with load factors, specially in a railroad situation, which is very different from the airline situation because of the numerous stops that trains are able to make and carry loads between multiple overlapping segments. It is unusual for trains to have a load factor of over 60% unless it is a primarily a single or just a few O/D pair run. For example the Duronto Express trains in India which (used to) carry passengers only for its entire run in India often ran at 98% load factor. Same with Rajdhanis which do carry multiple O/D pair, but using a strict quota system for each O/D pair allocated based on long term relative load trends.

On short corridor runs it is often the case that providing a timetable pattern is more important than maximizing load factors. In extreme you see that in subway and well run (unlike in the US) suburban systems, where one takes a hit on low load factors on early morning, mid afternoon, and late evening trains in order to provide completely predictable clock face service. The NEC falls more in the latter category than the few O/D pair LD category. Consciously a hit is taken on overall load factor in order to provide clock face predictable service.

So no, there is no disconnect there at all. That is the nature of the beast of running corridor service that is found attractive by customers the world over. If you insist on not seeing that as a fact of life, then no one can really help you understand.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

tonys96 said:


> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Citation needed".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's an interesting one:
> 
> http://www.unitedrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/URPA-SPECIAL-REPORT-February-2014.pdf
> 
> After reading neroden's post, I really wanted to understand the whole load factor thing, and this article made a lot of sense. First of all, "load factor" is measured entirely differently on a train rather than an airplane (as neroden pointed out). Amtrak's load factor isn't the percentage of empty seats at any point in time, it's passenger miles divided by total seat miles. So, once you know how long the average passenger travels (for example, 500-800 miles on the Empire Builder), and you know the load factor (roughly 62%), it's easy to see that each seat turns over on the EB's route several times per trip. The odds of filling up all those random remainders is pretty low.
> 
> As the authors point out, Amtrak's constant touting of "ridership" actually increases the perception of the NEC's importance as compared to the long-distance network. If you look at passenger miles traveled, the long distance network actually carries a billion more passenger miles each year than the NEC!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> According to your link, a direct quote is " _Amtrak is consistently unable to sell half or more of its inventory (of "available seat miles") in the NEC and other short corridors._"..........
> 
> I consistently hear the exact opposite, that it is the LD system that is hampering Amtrak and the NEC is the only profitable part of the system.
> 
> There seems to be a bit of a disconnect there. :unsure: Which is true?
Click to expand...


In terms of load factor, I think jis is correct - having a regular schedule means that some trains during busy times are packed, while they're not very full at others. From my limited experiences on commuter trains, I think the same load factors that are discussed in the article are also at work on any train. For example, if most people are using the NEC to commute to NY, Philadelphia, or other large cities, the trains will be relatively empty far from those cities, but fill up the closer you get to the destination.

For example, I remember getting on a commuter train in Chicago far away from downtown, and the train was nearly empty. More people got on at every stop, and by the time we got to Union Station it was packed, standing room only. Despite that, the actual load factor was probably 50%, just like Amtrak's trains.

So, Amtrak's NEC trains are 50% full because of the "hub and spoke" nature of NEC travel, while the long distance trains are 50% full because different people generally take multiple shorter trips in a given seat over the length of the whole route. Either way, there's not much Amtrak can really do about either of those things - it's just the nature of train travel.


----------



## tonys96

D.P. Roberts said:


> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.P. Roberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tonys96 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm......are you saying every train is full at some point in every trip?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Citation needed".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's an interesting one:
> http://www.unitedrail.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/URPA-SPECIAL-REPORT-February-2014.pdf
> 
> After reading neroden's post, I really wanted to understand the whole load factor thing, and this article made a lot of sense. First of all, "load factor" is measured entirely differently on a train rather than an airplane (as neroden pointed out). Amtrak's load factor isn't the percentage of empty seats at any point in time, it's passenger miles divided by total seat miles. So, once you know how long the average passenger travels (for example, 500-800 miles on the Empire Builder), and you know the load factor (roughly 62%), it's easy to see that each seat turns over on the EB's route several times per trip. The odds of filling up all those random remainders is pretty low.
> 
> As the authors point out, Amtrak's constant touting of "ridership" actually increases the perception of the NEC's importance as compared to the long-distance network. If you look at passenger miles traveled, the long distance network actually carries a billion more passenger miles each year than the NEC!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks!According to your link, a direct quote is " _Amtrak is consistently unable to sell half or more of its inventory (of "available seat miles") in the NEC and other short corridors._"..........
> 
> I consistently hear the exact opposite, that it is the LD system that is hampering Amtrak and the NEC is the only profitable part of the system.
> 
> There seems to be a bit of a disconnect there. :unsure: Which is true?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In terms of load factor, I think jis is correct - having a regular schedule means that some trains during busy times are packed, while they're not very full at others. From my limited experiences on commuter trains, I think the same load factors that are discussed in the article are also at work on any train. For example, if most people are using the NEC to commute to NY, Philadelphia, or other large cities, the trains will be relatively empty far from those cities, but fill up the closer you get to the destination.
> 
> For example, I remember getting on a commuter train in Chicago far away from downtown, and the train was nearly empty. More people got on at every stop, and by the time we got to Union Station it was packed, standing room only. Despite that, the actual load factor was probably 50%, just like Amtrak's trains.
> 
> So, Amtrak's NEC trains are 50% full because of the "hub and spoke" nature of NEC travel, while the long distance trains are 50% full because different people generally take multiple shorter trips in a given seat over the length of the whole route. Either way, there's not much Amtrak can really do about either of those things - it's just the nature of train travel.
Click to expand...

I understand. It seems, though, there might be a way to affect this positively on LD travel, maybe not on commuter travel.Amtrak can and should market point to point travel on LD routes. There is no reason not to do so. Filling empty seats, no matter where they may be along the route, should be a primary objective. Y'all seem to all agree that the trains may be full at times along the route, and that may be true, so, is it good to hold seats open throughout the entire route? Of course not!

A quick example would be the TE, from SAS to AUS or FTW or DAL. Have never seen this train full on this run going north. Excellent marketing opportunity, IMHO. Surely there are other sections on every route. This is a struggle for certain, but not an impossibility.

Simply because " it has always been that way", or " that is the nature of it" or " that is how it is" never has been or never, ever, will be a sufficient reason to not look for ways to make positive changes in anything.

And, I am still confused about the NEC deal. Your link states the NEC is vastly underutilized, and I hear elsewhere that it is the lifeblood of Amtrak.......


----------



## jis

tonys96 said:


> And, I am still confused about the NEC deal. Your link states the NEC is vastly underutilized, and I hear elsewhere that it is the lifeblood of Amtrak.......


Utilization is a tradeoff with convenience. Making a service convenient increases ridership, which may be done at the cost of not achieving the highest load factors for reasons explained in my earlier message. Blindly trying to increase net load factor often leads to decrease in ridership overall because the service becomes inconvenient.

by normal measures of such thing the NEC is not considered to be underutilized by those that understand the cross-elasticity between schedule convenience, overall ridership and load factor. Only those who look at load factors independent of everything else with relatively little understanding other dynamic relationships involved think it is under-utilized.

Due to various factors, Amtrak is currently driven by the goal to maximize revenue yields on the NEC, and that they are doing quite successfully. Again that is the outcome of complex dynamics in which load factor is but one factor involved with complex interaction with other factors. It is quite safe to say I think that just increasing load factor as a primary objective will possibly reduce both ridership and revenue.

Again, the Amtrak planners are not as stupid as many here seem to think. They are actually quite sophisticated when it comes to maximize revenues given the constraints that they work under, specially on the NEC.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

I know Amtrak does try to utilize popular city pairs & shorter routes to its best advantage. As has been previously mentioned, they often add an extra coach car to the EB during the busy summer season on the CHI-MSP leg. Also, they normally prohibit many short but popular trips that would preclude people from taking those seats for longer voyages (and thus reducing their load factor and revenue). For example, you normally can't take a short trip on the EB through Glacier National Park, but they decided to allow it last summer - I would assume that the previous two years' of delays caused enough of a drop in Amtrak ridership that a few seasonal tourists weren't going to be a problem.


----------



## Bigval109

Someone help me out here. There have been many changes lately, the buy point limit has been raised, the price of points have increased by $100 if you buy the 10,000 points, and there is talk of devalue of points in the near future. What's really going on. Let's not forget the new card and AGR 2.0. Granted I'm an old man, but something is just not adding up for keeping we the customer.


----------



## BCL

Bigval109 said:


> Someone help me out here. There have been many changes lately, the buy point limit has been raised, the price of points have increased by $100 if you buy the 10,000 points, and there is talk of devalue of points in the near future. What's really going on. Let's not forget the new card and AGR 2.0. Granted I'm an old man, but something is just not adding up for keeping we the customer.


They're trying to keep the "cost" of running the program. I mean, it does seem kind of broken when people are buying points because it's cheaper than paying for a trip with cash.

They're certainly not doing this revamp piecemeal. I for one took advantage of the 100 point minimum, but it won't matter come this Feb. However, I'll have my 30,000+ points, and I suppose the new redemption rules will encourage me to actually use them rather than hoard them.


----------



## winterskigirl

It sounds like the point for dollar redemption is a better deal than the old zone map redemption. For example, if I want to travel CHI to SEA one way on the Empire Builder at a roomette price say of $ 422.00 (I picked this just now from the Amtrak site for January 2016 travel) it would be saving a huge amount of points! Under the current point redemption this trip (2 zones) would be the equivalent of 20,00 points. Have I assessed this correctly?


----------



## TinCan782

winterskigirl said:


> It sounds like the point for dollar redemption is a better deal than the old zone map redemption. For example, if I want to travel CHI to SEA one way on the Empire Builder at a roomette price say of $ 422.00 (I picked this just now from the Amtrak site for January 2016 travel) it would be saving a huge amount of points! Under the current point redemption this trip (2 zones) would be the equivalent of 20,00 points. Have I assessed this correctly?


"It depends"...with the points redemption tied to the actual cost of a ticket it will fluctuate with the bucket. I do know, my trip last August LAX to WAS would have been 150-160k instead of the 120k I paid for a 3 zone round trip bedroom. Last year's Coast Starlight RT LAX to SEA would have been 20k point more under the new system.


----------

