# Chicago - St Louis high speed rail



## RickIronton

Since Amtrak inaugurated high speed between Joliet and Dwight IL, I have observed through Amtrak's train tracking the highest speed of 99 mph.

Does this corridor ever live up to "Illinois High-Speed Rail" advertisements of higher speed considering the fact that 110 mph was obtainable?


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## kbmiflyer

Note the "high speed" portion is between Dwight and Pontiac, not Dwight and Joliet. I have taken this train several times, and we usually hit 110 between Pontiac and Dwight (albeit for only a few minutes).

Note that the Texas Eagle does not go up to 110, only the Linoln Service (not sure why).

That being said, advertising high speed rail is a bit of a joke for now until we get high speed along most of the route, and figure out the slow sections between Joliet and CUS (they are working on that), and between Alton and St Louis (they really aren't working on that).


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## Andrew

When the Lincoln Service travels that quickly, how are the noise levels within the passenger cars?


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## MARC Rider

Andrew said:


> When the Lincoln Service travels that quickly, how are the noise levels within the passenger cars?


The Lincoln service uses the same kind of Amfleet coaches they use for the Northeast Regional, and those go 125 mph, and it's perfectly quiet inside. We rode on them at the Gathering, it was indistinguishable from a Northeast Regional trip (though we weremn't going 100 mph between Chicago and Joliet.)

Now, if you want noisy trains, you have to ride the Chicago L.  And I remember one ride in 1972 from NYP to PHL, on the Southern Crescent. Amtrak stuck a few of their own cars in the consist for the Northeast Corridor riders, and the one I was stuck in was an old PRR P70, still painted in Penn Central peas-soup green. Running through Jersey we must have been above 100 mph (they had already done the track improvements for the original Metroliners), and that was one noisy rock-and-roll of a ride.


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## grover5995

kbmiflyer said:


> Note the "high speed" portion is between Dwight and Pontiac, not Dwight and Joliet. I have taken this train several times, and we usually hit 110 between Pontiac and Dwight (albeit for only a few minutes).
> 
> Note that the Texas Eagle does not go up to 110, only the Linoln Service (not sure why).
> 
> That being said, advertising high speed rail is a bit of a joke for now until we get high speed along most of the route, and figure out the slow sections between Joliet and CUS (they are working on that), and between Alton and St Louis (they really aren't working on that).


I believe the plan is for nearly all of the Joliet-Alton segment to be upgraded to 110mph in a couple years. The route from Chicago-Joliet is supposed to switch to the METRA/Rock Island line in a few years due to freight interference on the Heritage Corridor. The Texas Eagle is a longer train and uses heavier double-deck Superliners so it cannot go quite as fast.


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## George Harris

grover5995 said:


> I believe the plan is for nearly all of the Joliet-Alton segment to be upgraded to 110mph in a couple years. The route from Chicago-Joliet is supposed to switch to the METRA/Rock Island line in a few years due to freight interference on the Heritage Corridor. The Texas Eagle is a longer train and uses heavier double-deck Superliners so it cannot go quite as fast.


However, teh Superliners do run many miles at 90 mph on the Southwest Chief route.

I feel like the Chicago - St. Louis "High Speed" has become a sinkhole for money with very little to show for ti. A lot of that is Illinois politics. The reality is that in GM&O days regardless of speed limits of 79 mph or whatever, the schedule was likely faster than the best now and little slower than that after the 110 mph is in place. As a matter of pride the GM&O boys did their best to keep schedule even if it meant running 90 plus regardless of speed limits. Then at that time there were three railroads operating Chicago - St. Louis passenger service.


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## Anderson

IIRC, the Superliners are rated up to 100 MPH. They can't take _full_ advantage of the upgrades, but they can take advantage of most of their potential.


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## jis

The agreement in place with the host railroad does not allow the Texas Eagle to operate at higher speed. Only a few specific trains are allowed to do so, and the Texas Eagle is not one of them. So no, Superliner or not, the Texas Eagle cannot take advantage of the higher speeds possible.


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## George Harris

jis said:


> The agreement in place with the host railroad does not allow the Texas Eagle to operate at higher speed. Only a few specific trains are allowed to do so, and the Texas Eagle is not one of them. So no, Superliner or not, the Texas Eagle cannot take advantage of the higher speeds possible.


The idiocy points in this agreement are multiple and goofy beyond all imagining. Did someone have a gun to the heads of the people on the state's and fed's side of this side of this concept?


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## jis

IMHO the general level of idiocy or at least willful neglect of intelligent decision making on all sides involved in the Chicago - St. Louis HSR Project is of epic proportions. It is hard to fathom why this sort of thing is tolerated for many years with no one screaming blue murder.


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## afigg

George Harris said:


> I feel like the Chicago - St. Louis "High Speed" has become a sinkhole for money with very little to show for ti. A lot of that is Illinois politics. The reality is that in GM&O days regardless of speed limits of 79 mph or whatever, the schedule was likely faster than the best now and little slower than that after the 110 mph is in place. As a matter of pride the GM&O boys did their best to keep schedule even if it meant running 90 plus regardless of speed limits. Then at that time there were three railroads operating Chicago - St. Louis passenger service.


I think the reason you have seen little to show for the CHI-STL corridor is that they still have a long way to go on the improvement projects. Checking the status of the big $1.142 billion grant on recovery.gov (diving down to state and projects), IL has filed their quarterly report through December 31, 2013 which shows that $370 million of the total grant has been spent so far (link which may not work). The $1.142B grant includes rolling stock purchases for the corridor service, so those won't be paid in full until the bi-level and locomotives are delivered. Still, as a crude metric, IL has spent 32% so far of the major grant for the corridor upgrades for the bills that were paid as of December, 2013.

There is a separate $186 million grant for double tracking and upgrades from Dwight to Joliet, which I believe has yet to start any track work. It is a FY10 project grant, so it is not covered on the recovery.gov tracking site. While the CHI-STL corridor will need another billion or two to reach the final project goals, the improvements from the funding that has been provided are still in the pipeline. Have to give it until at least 2016 before the funds are going into a sinkhole or not. Yes, this is taking a long time after the funds were awarded, but unless you are DOD, it usually takes time to spend some $1.4 billion in federal money.


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## CHamilton

St. Clair County may chip in $500K for high speed rail station in East St. Louis


> St. Clair County leaders are considering committing $500,000 to lure a high speed rail station to East St. Louis as part of the state's project connecting St. Louis and Chicago with a 284-mile rail track capable of allowing trains reach 110 mph.
> The St. Clair County Board will consider using the money to aid the state's Department of Transportation with the design and planning of the station, which would be adjacent to the MetroLink on River Park Drive. Board members will likely vote on the proposal during a meeting on Monday night....
> 
> "We are the only county with MetroLink so that will allow ... all the communities in St. Clair County to be attached to high speed rail," Kern said. "If a station isn't built in East St. Louis, you'll have to travel to Alton or St. Louis to get on a high speed train. Alton is probably a half hour, 45 minutes (to reach by car). If you have to travel to St. Louis, you will be leaving your home to cross the bridge to get on a train that will then backtrack just where you were. Then when you are coming back, the train will pass your home on its way to St. Louis."
> 
> The project is funded through $1.2 billion in federal funds and $400 million in state funds. The St. Clair County Transit District would provide the proposed local funding....
> 
> The project is expected to be completed in 2017, though, significant reductions in travel time to Chicago will begin in 2015. The cost of the proposed station in East St. Louis is not yet known.


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## siberianmo

A long time ago in another life (not really) I became involved with a group(civic & political people) pushing for a high speed rail connection between St. Louis and Chicago. Over more than a decade it appears that a "hybrid" of high speed rail is about to make that connection. I say "hybrid" only because 110 mph surely is not high speed; higher speed but not high. Anyway . . .

I travel between St. Louis and Chicago in order to make connections for Amtrak's long distance trains out of Union Station. The trip aboard the Lincoln Service trains takes roughly 6 hours. It is fair to say that I have never been later than 20 minutes arriving into Chicago. That ain't bad. Anyway . . .

When reading the post revealing "plans" for an East St. Louis stop for high speed rail, I had to cringe. What makes high(er) speed less likely is the insertion of more stops between end points.

Get my point?


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## Bob Dylan

Isn't East St. Louis sort of the Detroit of Missouri/Illinois? h34r: When I used to travel there often on Business the Locals would tell us Don't Cross the River to East St. Louis! I wouldn't think too many HSR Passengers would catch the Train there when the Commuter Trains run to the New St; Louis Intermodel Station where you can catch Amtrak! I agree there's really no need for this Station, it would just Slow Up the Corridor Trains!


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## XHRTSP

jimhudson said:


> Isn't East St. Louis sort of the Detroit of Missouri/Illinois? h34r: When I used to travel there often on Business the Locals would tell us Don't Cross the River to East St. Louis! I wouldn't think too many HSR Passengers would catch the Train there when the Commuter Trains run to the New St; Louis Intermodel Station where you can catch Amtrak! I agree there's really no need for this Station, it would just Slow Up the Corridor Trains!


Parts of East St Louis literally resemble a war zone. I've been there, I've saw it with me own two eyes.

Oh, and the Metrolink ride across the river into Civic isn't that bad. East St Louis has a lot of problems, that ain't one of them. 500k can be much better spent.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> The agreement in place with the host railroad does not allow the Texas Eagle to operate at higher speed. Only a few specific trains are allowed to do so, and the Texas Eagle is not one of them. So no, Superliner or not, the Texas Eagle cannot take advantage of the higher speeds possible.


Wasn't there talk at some point that additional Lincoln Services would be added in the future?

Basically this agreement would seem to preclude that possibility.


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## CHamilton

Final downstate construction begins for 110-mph trains



> Amtrak passenger trains should be running at speeds up to 110 mph between Carlinville and Joliet in 2015, based on the latest update of high-speed rail construction from the Illinois Department of Transportation.
> This year's construction season, the fifth since the $1.5 billion federal-state high-speed rail program began, includes approximately $100 million worth of rail, bridge, siding, crossing and station improvements between St. Louis and Chicago.
> “We are on schedule to bring most of the Joliet-Carlinville segment to 110 by the end of 2015,” IDOT spokeswoman Paris Ervin said.
> The upgrades, according to IDOT, will allow for 110-mph service between Carlinville and Joliet that was first begun in 2012 on the section between Pontiac and Dwight. The goal is 110-mph service on the entire St. Louis-Chicago corridor in 2017.“We are on schedule to bring most of the Joliet-Carlinville segment to 110 by the end of 2015,” IDOT spokeswoman Paris Ervin said.This year's construction season, the fifth since the $1.5 billion federal-state high-speed rail program began, includes approximately $100 million worth of rail, bridge, siding, crossing and station improvements between St. Louis and Chicago.
> Work in the Springfield area includes siding upgrades at Auburn, Carlinville, Elkhart, Girard, Lincoln and just north of Springfield.


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## Bob Dylan

Looks like the Eagles will be heading for Amish Country on re-routes and the Lincoln Service Trains will be Bustitutions on Selected Days!


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## Eric S

The article mentions the overpass being constructed at Normal to allow trains to serve both tracks, meaning the old platform will be put back into service. That had been mentioned at the time the new Normal station opened, but until this article I had never seen any sort of timeline for that construction.


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## Steve4031

This link mentions work south of Alton. /details.aspxhttp://www.idothsr.o...st/details.aspx

 

Between Madison and Alton.


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## afigg

Saw this article on the CHI-STL corridor status at Progressive Railroading and this thread appears to be the most on-topic for it.

Progressive Railroading November magazine article: The Chicago-to-St. Louis higher-speed rail project nears finish line. (well, depending on how one defines "nearing" the finish line. The funded track work will continue to 2018).

Excerpts which help to explain why the upgrades have been taking so long (think EIS and going through the local approval process to upgrade almost 300 grade crossings).



> All the upgrades are expected to reduce the entire five-and-a-half-hour train journey from Chicago to St. Louis by about an hour. Amtrak’s Lincoln Service and Texas Eagle trains currently run at a maximum speed of 79 mph along the route, save for a 15-mile stretch between Dwight and Pontiac, Ill., where trains began running at 110 mph on Thanksgiving Day 2012.
> 
> Since then, the project’s leaders have continued to forge ahead in the face of several hurdles, including pushback from local communities, difficulties associated with implementing positive train control (PTC) and stringent environmental documentation requirements. Although there’s still work left to do, they’ve logged a series of accomplishments — from the completion of track rehabilitation along the corridor to breaking ground on the line’s first new station — and stand ready to tackle the project’s final phases within the next few years.
> ....
> 
> “We are challenged by some of the requirements for consensus building when it comes to grade crossings, in particular,” said Phil Pasterak, who heads the Parsons Brinckerhoff team charged with managing the project.
> 
> He made the remarks during a presentation he delivered last month at Railway Interchange 2015 in Minneapolis.
> 
> The route includes nearly 300 crossings, and the project team must gain approval from each community along the way.
> .....
> 
> Another challenge for project planners: implementing PTC for higher-speed trains without adequate federal guidance.
> 
> Like Class I routes, the Chicago-St. Louis passenger line will feature an Interoperable Electronic Train Management System (I-ETMS), but there’s one important difference: “We are now the only corridor … in the country where I-ETMS needs to operate at speeds of up to 110 [mph],” said Pasterak.
> The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) has issued some PTC guidelines for running trains up to 90 mph, but not yet for trains exceeding that speed. UP’s signal team is working closely with the FRA to get rules governing trains traveling beyond the 90 mph mark, Pasterak said.
> 
> In the interim, UP is installing a new fiber trunk line along the entire right-of-way to prepare for PTC implementation.
> 
> Because the federal government is covering most costs associated with the $1.9 billion project, planners also must comply with a hefty set of environmental reporting requirements.
> 
> So far, the project’s leaders have begun working on nearly 50 National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) Tier II documents, which examine the line’s potential impacts on wildlife, habitats and other natural resources.
> 
> The reporting process has taken “a lot more time than anybody ever imagined when we speculated and started designing this project,” Halsted said. “But we are continuing to trudge through this.”


BTW, calling the CHI-STL "high speed rail" project has always been a stretch. I agree with one of the comments to the article that the project and maybe even the title of this thread should be Chicago - St. Louis higher speed rail.


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## norfolkwesternhenry

The Texas Eagle has Superliner cars, which can only handle 100 MPH, but the problem is most likely the engine does not have the remote signaling needed for speeds above 79 MPH, according to US law


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## norfolkwesternhenry

not quite, one P42 can pull the Texas Eagle at 100 MPH, because they roll very well, it does not have the signaling needed for speeds 79+ MPH, according to US law


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## Eric S

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> not quite, one P42 can pull the Texas Eagle at 100 MPH, because they roll very well, it does not have the signaling needed for speeds 79+ MPH, according to US law


Are you responding to a particular question or comment?

It's been over 6 months since there was a comment in this thread, until yours.


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## Steve4031

At least it addresses the topic to some degree. It's about trains operating on the Lincoln service route. This is unlike most of the posts on AU.


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## norfolkwesternhenry

Eric S said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> 
> not quite, one P42 can pull the Texas Eagle at 100 MPH, because they roll very well, it does not have the signaling needed for speeds 79+ MPH, according to US law
> 
> 
> 
> Are you responding to a particular question or comment?
> 
> It's been over 6 months since there was a comment in this thread, until yours.
Click to expand...

 I did not look at dates, I mainly use the app, which does not show info on what topics are "hot"


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## CCC1007

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> 
> not quite, one P42 can pull the Texas Eagle at 100 MPH, because they roll very well, it does not have the signaling needed for speeds 79+ MPH, according to US law
> 
> 
> 
> Are you responding to a particular question or comment?
> 
> It's been over 6 months since there was a comment in this thread, until yours.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not look at dates, I mainly use the app, which does not show info on what topics are "hot"
Click to expand...

I'm also using the app and the feature I use is the "unread topics" as it keeps everything straight...


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## penguinflies

An update:

Tons of track work being done between SPI and DWT. We were an hour late on 301 yesterday because of the slowdowns and stops with workers on tracks. Lots of weekend train cancellations to accommodate the work this season.

DWT's new station looks to be almost ready. Tons of parking, brightly lit. Approaches and other roadwork in the area looks to be progressing well.

Work on Lincoln station rehab looks to be in full swing.

Work on BNL's second platform is progressing. Looks like the roof is going up next.

301 doesn't stop in DWT, I'm on 304 in a few days, will see if we stop in old downtown or if they stop at the new station.


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## penguinflies

article on DWT. It is open!

http://www.daily-journal.com/news/local/high-speed-rail-station-opens-in-dwight/article_4ea8a214-c85a-54b7-a287-80cf0adb1dc3.html


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## grover5995

Latest word from IDOT is that the Joliet-Alton section will be completed in 2017 which will cut roughly 60 minutes from previous running times for Lincoln Service. Next step would be double-tracking from Joliet-Bloomington and possibly further south which would permit additional frequency and eventual service to Peoria.

Joliet Union Station project is moving ahead with a new platform for METRA/Rock Island in operation east of the crossover. At the same time, a new north/south center platform for AMTRAK and Heritage Corridor is under construction. Pedestrian subways and escalators will connect to the original station building and eliminate foot traffic across a busy BNSF freight line.


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## penguinflies

Nice! BNL and CRV 2nd track platforms are moving right along.

BNL looks have more progress as the cover is also erected and it looked to be electrified.

CRV both platforms are poured and heavy equipment is pushing more dirt next to the parking spots.

Lincoln looks to be a project in work, though much visual progress is hidden.


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## Everydaymatters

In today's Pantagraph (Bloomington, Illinois) it states that there will be busing due to more work on the high speed rail. Some trains will be shut down from BNL to CHI indefinitely starting April 3.


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## Bob Dylan

Does this,mean a reroute for the Texas Eagle Betty???


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## Everydaymatters

Bob Dylan said:


> Does this,mean a reroute for the Texas Eagle Betty???


Jim, I believe the Pantagraph might have made an error in that it says "Trains 321 and 322 will be canceled". It states that "northbound train 22/422 and southbound train 21/421 won't stop between Chicago and St. Louis, Also, "The Texas Eagle may encounter delays of up to 45 minutes traveling on the detour".

There are other inconsistencies in the Pantagraph's article, so I'd advise someone check with Amtrak.


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## Bob Dylan

Thanks Betty, guess the Eagle will be using the regular "Amish Country" Detour between Chicago and St. Louis.


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## Steve4031

321/322 are the train numbers for chi-stl reservations iirc. 21/22 are running through to Texas. I think this is done to discourage chi-stl bookings in coach on 21/22. I have successfully booked sleepers on 21/22 detours to avoid bus rides.


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## VentureForth

After riding the TE through the STL - CHI detour (and them still insisting we'd be on time), I'll continue to relish 79 MPH. 54 MPH for nearly 5 straight hours going straight and flat - it's about the most boring ride I've ever been on with Amtrak.


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## Steve4031

Same scenery as on any Midwest route. Cornfields and small towns. I enjoyed it because my grandfather worked on the C&EI which 21 and 22 run over on the detour. He used to always talk about Woodlawn jct. It was cool to ride over it on Amtrak.


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## XHRTSP

grover5995 said:


> Next step would be double-tracking from Joliet-Bloomington and possibly further south which would permit additional frequency and eventual service to Peoria.


Has there been serious talk about service to Peoria? I haven't really been following progress on the Illinois trains since leaving Chicago.


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## VentureForth

Steve4031 said:


> Same scenery as on any Midwest route. Cornfields and small towns. I enjoyed it because my grandfather worked on the C&EI which 21 and 22 run over on the detour. He used to always talk about Woodlawn jct. It was cool to ride over it on Amtrak.


I don't disagree with that, but a 25 MPH difference in speed makes a LOT of difference, not to mention the typical route between Chicago and St. Louis has 7 stops which breaks up the monotony. I can't think of anywhere else on the Texas Eagle, SWC or the CZ where the train travel more more than a couple hours without stopping, the longest legs being in the middle of the night.

Again, I enjoyed the rare mileage (becoming not so rare mileage over the past decade), but it got REAL boring for me after the first three hours. Now, I will say that when I was there, the refrigeration in the dining car went out and so there was no food service. We all got little snacklets which were nice.


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## Bob Dylan

XHRTSP said:


> grover5995 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next step would be double-tracking from Joliet-Bloomington and possibly further south which would permit additional frequency and eventual service to Peoria.
> 
> 
> 
> Has there been serious talk about service to Peoria? I haven't really been following progress on the Illinois trains since leaving Chicago.
Click to expand...

Not anytime soon with the current Governor and the just say no crowd of zealots in charge in Washington!


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## Eric S

XHRTSP said:


> grover5995 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next step would be double-tracking from Joliet-Bloomington and possibly further south which would permit additional frequency and eventual service to Peoria.
> 
> 
> 
> Has there been serious talk about service to Peoria? I haven't really been following progress on the Illinois trains since leaving Chicago.
Click to expand...

There was an Amtrak/IDOT study about 5ish years ago that gave a high level look at a number of route options and, IIRC, ultimately recommended improved/expanded Thruway bus connections between Peoria and Normal.


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## DSS&A

Track improvements are now mostly done and the new signal system for 110mph is being installed now.

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2018/05/25/chicago-st-louis-route-rebuilding-nearly-complete/


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## penguinflies

Anyone have an update on when trains will begin 90mph operation? No media or any real updates for a few months. Not seeing anything in near future schedules on amtrak.com with adjusted arrival or departure times.


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## VentureForth

penguinflies said:


> Anyone have an update on when trains will begin 90mph operation? No media or any real updates for a few months. Not seeing anything in near future schedules on amtrak.com with adjusted arrival or departure times.


IIRC, Amtrak wasn't going to be allowed higher speeds - though 90 seems less than the peak speed for this segment.


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## Anderson

VentureForth said:


> penguinflies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have an update on when trains will begin 90mph operation? No media or any real updates for a few months. Not seeing anything in near future schedules on amtrak.com with adjusted arrival or departure times.
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC, Amtrak wasn't going to be allowed higher speeds - though 90 seems less than the peak speed for this segment.
Click to expand...

I was under the understanding that the Lincoln Service trains would have higher speeds, but that the Eagle wasn't part of the arrangement.


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## Bob Dylan

Anderson said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> penguinflies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have an update on when trains will begin 90mph operation? No media or any real updates for a few months. Not seeing anything in near future schedules on amtrak.com with adjusted arrival or departure times.
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC, Amtrak wasn't going to be allowed higher speeds - though 90 seems less than the peak speed for this segment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was under the understanding that the Lincoln Service trains would have higher speeds, but that the Eagle wasn't part of the arrangement.
Click to expand...

True, and its taking forever to get the Tracks in shape for the Higher Speeds with lots of work still to go, especially around Chicago and St.Louis!


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## GBNorman

All told, to date this "HSR charade" has been an ARRA09 (Stimulus) project to rebuild a line for UP freight operations. All it has meant to passengers is one busteetoot or another or, in the case of the Eagle, for other than railfans, a slow ride through the cornfields.

Why they didn't fund from the get-go to "redouble" track the entire route escapes me. The GM&O only ripped up the second track during '68, so right of way was there to support a double tracked road.


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## jis

GBNorman said:


> All told, to date this "HSR charade" has been an ARRA09 (Stimulus) project to rebuild a line for UP freight operations. All it has meant to passengers is one busteetoot or another or, in the case of the Eagle, for other than railfans, a slow ride through the cornfields.
> 
> Why they didn't fund from the get-go to "redouble" track the entire route escapes me. The GM&O only ripped up the second track during '68, so right of way was there to support a double tracked road.


Because they have bought the CTC snake oil promises peddled by the CTC vendors? [emoji57]


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## penguinflies

I ride the service nearly weekly. Most articles 10 months ago was quoting upgrading to 90mph service in fall, full 110mph speed in 2019. No media updates since then, so I figure they are slipping.

This was just published about going faster through SPI:

http://www.sj-r.com/news/20181022/trains-to-start-moving-faster-along-springfields-third-street-corridor


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## Steve4031

I’ve seriously become disillusioned about this entire project. It’s ridiculous. China has built an entire bullet train network in the time Illinois has done nothing.


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## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> I’ve seriously become disillusioned about this entire project. It’s ridiculous. China has built an entire bullet train network in the time Illinois has done nothing.


China is a more advanced country than Illinois is a state?

With only one party, China doesn't need to have its politicians waste time and money on political corruption when commercial corruption is more efficient?

China is advancing from the 16th century whereas Illinois is only advancing from the 19th?

Random thoughts from a lost mind.


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## penguinflies

The main reason why I ask is that we are beginning to arrive early to stations enroute.  We had to hold at SPI for 20 minutes, Carlinville for 10, etc.  A good problem to have, but as an end to end customer, I would like to see the schedule condensed a bit.


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## neroden

Maybe it's time to start writing to Illinois DOT and asking them about getting agreement to shorten the schedules.  There is no reason why the Texas Eagle, or any of the other trains, should be artificially slowed down.  (I could understand a big fat wait in St. Louis for the northbound Texas Eagle, to allow for any delays further south without messing up the schedule further north, but not on the rest of the route.)


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## penguinflies

Thanks.  There was talk in May that the segments were going to be allowed 90 mph operation q3 or 4 2018, then 110 in in 2019.  I would hope that this means schedules are already drafted by the bureaucrats.


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## daybeers

This whole project has taken absolutely forever and there is no reason for trains not to be running at 110 right now.


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## penguinflies

I asked and the project team responded. The response did not include any timeline, only that if Amtrak does increase speeds, there is no plan to condense the schedule.

" A significant portion of the Chicago to St. Louis High-Speed Rail corridor infrastructure is now in place and the program is installing Positive Train Control (PTC), a safety system that uses advanced communication systems to avoid collisions with other trains, protect maintenance workers, and enforce speeds in slow zones. The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) has issued PTC guidance for running trains up to 90 MPH and field testing of the PTC system is required. Once PTC installation is complete and approved, Amtrak trains in the Chicago to St. Louis High-Speed Rail corridor will begin operating at higher speeds. At this time there is no plan for a change in the train schedule. "  -The Illinois High-Speed Rail Chicago to St. Louis Program Team


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## cirdan

So if schedules are not going to be condensed, what is the benefit of the entire exercise?

It's not the speed itself that makes a train attractive but the time the higher speed can save.


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## Anderson

No, they're not planning schedule changes until they get the tech straight (which may affect how much time they can pull out).

And I _will_ concur that there are issues with implementing anything in a timely manner in the US.  Then again, the fact that there's a decent chance that Brightline is into Orlando before VA gets a Record of Decision on Richmond-Washington says _plenty_ given that both projects started around the same time.


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## Ziv

Steve4031 said:


> I’ve seriously become disillusioned about this entire project. It’s ridiculous. China has built an entire bullet train network in the time Illinois has done nothing.


"Mussolini made the trains run on time!"

It was a common statement at one time, with a small grain of truth to it, but it is kind of related to the issue of why China can build a world class train system in a relatively short amount of time whereas a more advanced economy like the US stumbles from one problem to another. There is little doubt that a fascist like Mussolini, or an autocracy like the Communist Party of China, can achieve great things if they point their resources at a particular issue. But I doubt most of us would prefer to live there over a seemingly dysfunctional nation like those we have in the West.  But building the Italian train system from horrifically bad to moderately effective probably wasn't worth putting up with il Duce.

;-)


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## jis

This has got be the most billions spent for getting absolutely no effect on timetable. Bravo! :lol:


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## MikefromCrete

Now that the voters have ousted Gov. Bruce Rauner, perhaps we will see some progress on this route, as well as the Quad Cities and Rockford trains. The state has been practically non functional during   the past four years.


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## Devil's Advocate

neroden said:


> There is no reason why the Texas Eagle, or any of the other trains, should be artificially slowed down.


&



daybeers said:


> This whole project has taken absolutely forever and there is no reason for trains not to be running at 110 right now.


Unless I'm mistaken nobody wrote faster speeds or shorter schedules for the other trains into the original upgrade agreement and after the upgrade was completed the freight host indicated they had no interest in making any further changes without additional compensation or other considerations.  Profit motive can be an especially compelling reason for arbitrarily resisting even benign progress.


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## VentureForth

Who paid for this upgrade?  BNSF or Taxpayers?


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## AutoTrDvr

RickIronton said:


> Since Amtrak inaugurated high speed between Joliet and Dwight IL, I have observed through Amtrak's train tracking the highest speed of 99 mph.
> 
> Does this corridor ever live up to "Illinois High-Speed Rail" advertisements of higher speed considering the fact that 110 mph was obtainable?


I would not consider either of those "high speed."  But, then again, I'm spoiled by the Japanese Shinkansen trains as well as Thallys, both of which can reach 320Kph and more.

I wouldn't even consider Acela (at 150mph)  "high speed."    Not by a long shot.

To me, "high speed" is a train that can get you to where you need to be and can be "competitive" with air travel between the same points, both in time savings and cost.  Where it cost less and takes less time to take a train than it is to fly (including ground time to get to/from each station/airport as well as on-boarding time)  and, where there is demand for that travel, I think high speed rail would work well, if we're talking Shinkansen/Thallys speeds.  Not sure if that means Chicago <---> St. Louis or not.  Frankly, I think even the Acela service between NY and Wash. DC is questionable. Perhaps it's OK between BOS and either NYP or Wash DC. Then again, I'm from a time when Eastern Air ran the BOS and DCA shuttle planes that were really cheap.


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## Devil's Advocate

VentureForth said:


> Who paid for this upgrade?  BNSF or Taxpayers?


IIRC taxpayers paid Union Pacific to perform the necessary upgrades.  Union Pacific agreed to allow passenger trains that were specifically mentioned in original contract to increase speeds, but also held other trains back unless and until more taxpayer money could be extracted on their behalf.



AutoTrDvr said:


> I would not consider either of those "high speed."  But, then again, I'm spoiled by the Japanese Shinkansen trains as well as Thallys, both of which can reach 320Kph and more. I wouldn't even consider Acela (at 150mph)  "high speed."    Not by a long shot.﻿


In my view average speed across an entire route has a lot more relevance than some brief Goldilocks segment at top speed.  By my way of measuring Acela is a conventional 65MPH rail line masquerading as a 150MPH high speed train.


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## AutoTrDvr

Devil's Advocate said:


> In my view average speed across an entire route has a lot more relevance than some brief Goldilocks segment at top speed.  By my way of measuring Acela is a conventional 65MPH rail line masquerading as a 150MPH high speed train.


Precisely.  The Shinkansen, TGV and Thallys all have the majority of their segments at those high speeds.  They make the grade.  Acela does not.


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## cirdan

Ziv said:


> "Mussolini made the trains run on time!"
> 
> ....
> 
> But building the Italian train system from horrifically bad to moderately effective probably wasn't worth putting up with il Duce




Interesting reading on this topic from Snopes

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/


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## neroden

Write to IDOT, the governor, and your state legislators.  Tell them that the trains are running perfectly fast, and that's great, and thank them for that.  But then say the trains are arriving at stations early and are being delayed because of Union Pacific's irresponsible intransigence and unwillingness to tighten the schedule.  Ask them to either negotiate with UP to make the schedule tighter, or (better) to buy the line so that you don't have to argue with UP ever again.  Explain that you understand that some schedule slack is needed to allow for things like PTC upgrades, the Springfield track relocation project, etc., but that it makes no sense to be sitting for 20 minutes at Dwight because you haven't bothered to renegotiate with Union Pacific -- and it is bad for Union Pacific too.


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## NorthShore

The Springfield track relocation project is a bunch of bs, imo.  Why relocate the tracks from where everyone wants to go to the fringes of downtown, several blocks away from everything?

As far as buying the line, remember this state is practically bankrupt and deep in pension debt.  As is Chicago.   

Though, there is a need for another infrastructure program.   Which is why there's talk of raising the state gas tax.  

At least Metra has released a five billion dollar Christmas wish list, explaining how they'd spend the money, if they had it, for improvement.  Which is more than we can say for Amtrak.


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## penguinflies

"IDOT now projects that 90-mph speeds will be in place for Amtrak next summer from Alton to south of Springfield and along much of the remainder of the route by the end of next year.
However, the agency is no longer saying when it believes the more significant speed target of 110 mph will be reached."
- Mark Schlinkmann St. Louis Post-Dispatch

https://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/amtrak-riders-between-st-louis-and-chicago-are-still-waiting/article_e3354cec-af48-5a9b-bc24-2e8c9b5f6fc0.html


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## GBNorman

The Wall Street Journal summed up the consensus around here regarding tjis debacle - and circulated same nationally.

Hope the UP remembers to thank the taxpayers for building their second St. Louis-Chicago route (other; former C&EI):

https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-speed-rail-in-the-u-s-remains-elusive-illinois-shows-why-11551713342?shareToken=stf07be36cf79d43dd8216804c6d2d972a&amp;reflink=article_email_share

Fair Use:



> Amtrak’s route from Chicago to St. Louis would seem an ideal place for the U.S. to adopt high-speed rail such as in Europe and Asia, where passenger trains can race along at 200 miles an hour. The stretch in Illinois is a straight shot across mostly flat terrain.
> 
> In fact, a fast-rail project is under way in Illinois. Yet the trains will top out at 110 mph, shaving just an hour from what is now a 5½-hour train trip. After it’s finished, at a cost of about $2 billion, the state figures the share of people who travel between the two cities by rail could rise just a few percentage points.  Behind such modest gains, for hundreds of millions of dollars spent, lie some of the reasons high-speed train travel remains an elusive goal in the U.S.


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## NorthShore

So here I sit (for the second time today, from travel in each direction) a little north of Dwight, waiting on an Amtrak train to pass, apparently held up by freight. I've experienced more movement through Ohio and Indiana than this.

We were projected to arrive in Chicago a half hour early out of Dwight. Now, we'll likely be late at Union Station. 

So much for high speed rail!

(At least I got to hear a little gossip from a Class 1 lobbyist in Springfield over dinner.)


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## jis

It should be noted that even India does not call its 90mph and 100mph trains, of which they have a few now, "High Speed". But they do have a plan to convert their entire so called Golden Quadrilateral uniformly to such speed or eventually upto 125mph, that is a total of a bit more than 8,000 route miles. They just call them "Higher Speed". They do have a true High Speed project in the making with Japanese aid between Mumbai and Ahmadabad, which is stuck in eminent domain land acquisition wrangles at the Mumbai end for now.


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## Maglev

When I rode the _Texas Eagle _in January, I kept waiting for a smooth, higher-speed section between St.Louis and Chicago, but never experienced it. I did notice long stretches of very expensive-looking fence along the right-of-way.


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## Barb Stout

What was behind the fence, houses or something else?


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## Maglev

Barb Stout said:


> What was behind the fence, houses or something else?



My attempt at getting a picture is shown below. The fences were mostly in urban areas, but sometimes extended for considerable distances.


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## NorthShore

We arrived in Chicago, finally, 3-4 hours late. Apparently a freight train broke down on single track territory. Which had two or three other trains on it that haf to be cleared. And a truck may have fouled a crossing to top it all off. Once we got moving things moved fine till we sat some more at Brighton Park crossing.

I was too tired, even, to takevthe L home. Got a Lyft.

On the positive side of things, another life goal achieved: walking around Union Station after 1 A.M. when it's typically closed.


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## neroden

As always, the moral is don't give money to freight companies unless you get ownership/control of the tracks.


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## Anderson

This isn't even _really_ the railroad's fault in the normal sense (loco maintenance may be another story, but a loco can die on anyone). The only thing (albeit not an insignificant one) the state would probably have gotten from owning the tracks with shared usage is the ability to somehow penalize them for the deadlined freight loco. The Moonlighters had this happen to it twice on CN last week and was like five hours late into Winnipeg (it made it up east of there), and _that _particular trip gets a "Do Not Delay" notice from CN.

Probably a stronger moral would be "double track or bust" wherever possible. Single-tracking is the main cause since if a train goes dead in single-track territory you can't un-frak the situation but so fast. At least with double tracking you still retain _some_ ability to keep priority stuff moving.


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## jis

Apropos loco maintenance I noticed that Amtrak under Anderson appears to be moving towards RCM for all, not just Acelas, perhaps something to be expected from someone coming from the evil airline industry which runs scads of ETOPS planes.


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## neroden

Yeah, single track is really no good. Why is there any single-track left here? Most of the work *done* on the route was double-tracking.


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## GBNorman

Neroden, you are on target with this whole fiasco. I've said this before, but funds allocated under ARRA09 with the intent of upgrading Chicago St Louis passenger service ended up providing the Union Pacific with upgraded access to their Global 4 intermodal facility near Joliet.

I've also previously noted that the route had been double tracked from the days of the C&A, which was known as the Alton Route. The GM&O removed the second track during '69, so sufficient right-of-way remains. If the intent was to operate additional trains beyond the present "five a day", as well as to give incentive to build the intermodal facility, then first order of business was to relay that second track.

The taxpayers got hoodwinked on this one.

disclaimers: author is an IL resident; also Long UNP.


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## penguinflies

Finally! No more idling at Bloomington and Alton.


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## west point

No additional UP speed restrictions on 21 and 22? IMO that is something at least.


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## NES28

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> not quite, one P42 can pull the Texas Eagle at 100 MPH, because they roll very well, it does not have the signaling needed for speeds 79+ MPH, according to US law


It is not a technical problem at all. The original EIS from way back (2003?) was based on the old schedule of 2 Lincoln Service trains. The more recent agreement with Union Pacific limits the number of trains to be operated at 110 to those in the EIS. UP may not enforce the agreement to the letter.


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## Cal

I’m surprised getting it to 90 shaved 15 minutes off of travel time


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## penguinflies

Was on 300 today. Hopefully further timetable compression can happen as data is gathered to reduce idling at Joliet and Alton. We sat a good amount today at both waiting for our ontime departure. 

Otherwise it was a nice, smooth ride.


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## penguinflies

A nice shot of 303(1)-









News photo: First revenue run for new Amtrak cars - Trains


JOLIET, Ill. — More than a year after making their first test runs, the Siemens Venture equipment built for state-supported Amtrak service in the Midwest made their first revenue trip Tuesday morning on Lincoln Service train No. 303 from Chicago to St. Louis. The equipment is scheduled to return...




www.trains.com


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