# High Speed Rail in China



## pennyk (Nov 13, 2018)

This article/video "Why is China so good at railways?" was forwarded to me by a railfan, who is no longer active on AU. I found it very interesting.


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## cpotisch (Nov 13, 2018)

Ah, good old Wendover Productions. Great channel for anyone interested with airlines and aircraft.


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## flitcraft (Nov 13, 2018)

High speed rail in China is one of the most remarkable transportation achievements anywhere, ever. I was just in Beijing two weeks ago and took the train to Shanghai, then another high speed train later on to Suzhou.  Not just quick but smooth and comfortable travel, and so easy for a non-Chinese speaker (or more exactly, someone whose Chinese is weak enough that I often don't bother to try!)   The only downside is that rail photography is impossible--nothing but a smear of color when I tried to take pictures from my seat.


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## cpotisch (Nov 14, 2018)

flitcraft said:


> High speed rail in China is one of the most remarkable transportation achievements anywhere, ever. I was just in Beijing two weeks ago and took the train to Shanghai, then another high speed train later on to Suzhou.  Not just quick but smooth and comfortable travel, and so easy for a non-Chinese speaker (or more exactly, someone whose Chinese is weak enough that I often don't bother to try!)   The only downside is that rail photography is impossible--nothing but a smear of color when I tried to take pictures from my seat.


Agreed. I would also mention that they have by far the fastest train in the world, the 267 mph Shanghai Maglev, which also costs about $8 per ride.


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## flitcraft (Nov 14, 2018)

I've taken the Maglev; I expected it to be a smooth ride, since you're traveling on a cushion of air. Nope, it's actually a surprisingly rough ride. But fast!


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## daybeers (Nov 14, 2018)

flitcraft said:


> I've taken the Maglev; I expected it to be a smooth ride, since you're traveling on a cushion of air. Nope, it's actually a surprisingly rough ride. But fast!


Huh interesting! I'd have thought it would be at least just as smooth if not smoother.


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## cpotisch (Nov 14, 2018)

flitcraft said:


> I've taken the Maglev; I expected it to be a smooth ride, since you're traveling on a cushion of air. Nope, it's actually a surprisingly rough ride. But fast!


Well, maglev trains technically don't travel on a cushion of air - they travel on a cushion of a magnetic field.


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## pennyk (Nov 24, 2018)

Here is another article about HSR in China (forwarded to me by the same friend)

https://www.businessinsider.my/china-bullet-train-speed-map-photos-tour-2018-5/?r=US&amp;IR=T&amp;fbclid=IwAR0FO0WQjFTVrQgAldOFG3UtG_SMHgZ_fUQDi2cHUFHb7sE2Wct2DPVfLSs


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## Ziv (Nov 25, 2018)

I haven't had a chance to ride the high speed rail lines in China, but I did ride on the medium speed night trains, and they were a lot of fun. I think they were Z's with open 4 bed compartments. The food was surprisingly good and the samovar/hot water dispenser for tea was the hotspot for discussing tea options. They put in everything you could imagine, from tea leaves, of course, to what looks like black eyed susan flowers to what i swear was a dried up squid into the little steeping compartment on their tea jugs. I said yes to the flower but no to the squid.

The other fun thing about non-HSR in China is the group exercises in the morning. Everyone got up at 7am or so and half an hour later we all were doing standing calisthenics, with a train employee calling out the cadence.  This was followed by tea, of course. I think that frequently the less expensive the train, the more fun the people. At least it seemed that way in Thailand and China. Though the really cheap trains, like the 3rd class trains in Thailand with the wooden seats, are kind of a pain.


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## VentureForth (Dec 4, 2018)

It's amazing what they can do with all our Wal Mart dollars!


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## Rover (Dec 31, 2018)

VentureForth said:


> It's amazing what they can do with all our Wal Mart dollars!


It's amazing what I can do with my dollars at Wal Mart & Sams...

I just watched the OP's video and was going to post it, until I found it here.

The CA high speed boondoggle. It will never pay for itself.


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## AutoTrDvr (Dec 31, 2018)

I believe Japan has the "top dog" status now with a 607kph Maglev High Speed Rail.


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## cpotisch (Jan 1, 2019)

> On 12/31/2018 at 1:05 AM, AutoTrDvr said:
> 
> I believe Japan has the "top dog" status now with a 607kph Maglev High Speed Rail.



That video is complete and utter nonsense. Most of those claims are blatantly and completely incorrect, and include test speeds, theoretical speeds, and other figures that never occur in normal service.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 2, 2019)

Rover said:


> It's amazing what I can do with my dollars at Wal Mart & Sams... I just watched the OP's video and was going to post it, until I found it here. The CA high speed boondoggle. It will never pay for itself.


I'm still waiting for Interstates 10, 35, & 37 to pay for themselves.  How about Loop 410 and 1604?  What about our intrastate highways _and_ tollways?  Those never seem to pay for themselves either.  What about our general aviation services and commercial airports?  The list just of non-recoverable transportation related expenses is massive and yet passenger rail is somehow expected to earn a profit while nearly everything else is given a pass.



AutoTrDvr said:


> I believe Japan has the "top dog" status now with a 607kph Maglev High Speed Rail.


Meaningful status comes from factual evidence of things that actually exist.


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## Anderson (Jan 7, 2019)

A few tollways get away with it (OOCEA et al seem to be doing well enough), but the point is taken.


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## seat38a (Jan 28, 2019)

Rover said:


> It's amazing what I can do with my dollars at Wal Mart & Sams...
> 
> I just watched the OP's video and was going to post it, until I found it here.
> 
> The CA high speed boondoggle. It will never pay for itself.


It's also amazing what can be done, when ones government can just seize your land and build a straight line through the densest part of the city or town.    Don't like it, a little "Re Eduction" should change your mind.


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## Rover (Jan 28, 2019)

seat38a said:


> It's also amazing what can be done, when ones government can just seize your land and build a straight line through the densest part of the city or town.    Don't like it, a little "Re Eduction" should change your mind.


_The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few._


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 28, 2019)

Rover said:


> _The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few._


I just want to know whose land is being forcibly seized and leveled in order to build more public transportation in Orange County.


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## Anderson (Jan 29, 2019)

In many respects, the issue isn't that some sort of eminent domain process happens (or even that it might be expedited).  The issue is that the Chinese are pretty bad at both (1) providing for compensation and (2) making sure that people actually get the compensation that is theoretically theirs.  IIRC with the Three Gorges Dam, there was an issue with both too little money being set aside to relocate the displaced villages and their residents _and_ with something like half of the set-aside funds being siphoned off.


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## jis (Jan 30, 2019)

Meanwhile in India the HSR between Mumbai and Ahmedabad is at least for now stuck dead in the water of eminent domain related local political and legal battles. No one apparently can quite figure out how all that will resolve as of now. They are apparently blocked from digging certain tunnels that they need to reach Mumbai.


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## Ziv (Jan 30, 2019)

Anderson said:


> In many respects, the issue isn't that some sort of eminent domain process happens (or even that it might be expedited).  The issue is that the Chinese are pretty bad at both (1) providing for compensation and (2) making sure that people actually get the compensation that is theoretically theirs.  IIRC with the Three Gorges Dam, there was an issue with both too little money being set aside to relocate the displaced villages and their residents _and_ with something like half of the set-aside funds being siphoned off.


Eminent domain in China is (or was) pretty much the government says "You must leave by such and such a date and you may or may not get compensation." They even have a certain symbol that they spray paint on the walls of the condemned area that is a public announcement of the status. Once the spray paint hits the wall everyone has 3 months to get out.

Chinese people/families have the right to the use of a piece of land or an apartment, but it sounds like they only have that right for 70 years, it doesn't sound like they own it outright. Maybe comparable to owning the air rights of a piece of land in the States. So if the Chinese government wants to develop a hutong and the people/family living there have been there for 40 years, they may only get 30/70th of the value. Or so it seemed when I was talking to people in Beijing, but half wouldn't talk to me. I visited Beijing a couple times about 10 years ago and spent a lot of time walking on back streets just soaking up the city. I had a hard time understanding the system because everyone seemed to have a different explanation, but it really came down to, if the government wants your land, they will take it and you may or may not get any money, and if you do get money, it won't be much.


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## Rover (Feb 12, 2019)

Here's a YT video that has some examples of people in China holding onto their property in the face of highway and building construction.


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## cpotisch (Feb 13, 2019)

Rover said:


> Here's a YT video that has some examples of people in China holding onto their property in the face of highway and building construction.\


The obviously fake clickbait thumbnail already makes it hard for me to take any content in that vid seriously.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 13, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> The obviously fake clickbait thumbnail already makes it hard for me to take any content in that vid seriously.


You beat me to calling photoshop on that picture...

(why you'd need to do that when there are plenty of real photos of holdouts.....)


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## pennyk (Mar 20, 2019)

Hong Kong to Beijing by High Speed Rail


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## jis (Mar 21, 2019)

Those who can ... do. Those who can't ... spend their energies dreaming up excuses, some legitimate and many not so much.


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## Rover (Jan 29, 2020)

Spiral rail for high-speed train in SW China's Guizhou province.

https://twitter.com/ChinaDaily/status/1222421628589527040?s=20


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## John Bredin (Jan 29, 2020)

Rover said:


> Spiral rail for high-speed train in SW China's Guizhou province.
> 
> https://twitter.com/ChinaDaily/status/1222421628589527040?s=20


Impressive piece of engineering, but I'd quibble with ChinaDaily or whoever captioned that video that the train doesn't look like a high-speed train.


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## JRR (Apr 12, 2020)

Rover said:


> _The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the few._



As long as I get to decide what the “needs” of the many are.

Frankly, I like each of us getting to choose what our particular “needs” are!


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## v v (Apr 15, 2020)

seat38a said:


> It's also amazing what can be done, when ones government can just seize your land and build a straight line through the densest part of the city or town.  Don't like it, a little "Re Eduction" should change your mind.



That's an interesting point of view. There are this and opposing views in Europe which often come down to the level of compensation.


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## v v (Apr 15, 2020)

pennyk said:


> This article/video "Why is China so good at railways?" was forwarded to me by a railfan, who is no longer active on AU. I found it very interesting.




Thanks Penny


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## toddinde (Apr 16, 2020)

The problem isn’t really the land acquisition costs since rail runs into most cities now, and those tracks could be upgraded. We can’t use the lack of having a totalitarian government as the excuse for not having nice things. The real problem is the absurdly high cost and low quality of infrastructure construction in this country. And no, it’s not environmental quality and labor costs, both of which are very high in Europe, Japan and other countries. It’s a whole host of things. There is a great article in Governing Magazine available free on line if you’re interested.


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