# Advice for First-Time Flyers



## Maglev

My wife's best friend and her husband will be taking their first flight ever from CLT to SEA on AA. We bought them F tickets, and also sent them a pair of carry-on size suitcases. I don't want to overwhelm them with advice, but also know how important preparation is. What are a few important things I should tell them? Should they check their luggage?

This same couple came out here for our wedding in 2004 on Amtrak, and had a great trip. But Bedrooms cost twice as much as airfare, and they don't have enough time now to travel by train.


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## Trogdor

Pre-trip:

1) Be familiar with what is and is not allowed in a carry-on. They should learn this before they pack, and not at the airport. If they want to carry a bag on board, they should know what to put in it and how big it can be. They should also know what *not* to put in a checked bag (generally, expensive electronics, Li-ion batteries, and/or critical medications).

2) Arrive at the airport at least 90 minutes early. Generally, for a domestic flight, this is too early, but if this is literally their first time, they will need extra time to be familiar with things.

3) Wear comfortable clothing and minimal jewelry (to have less to deal with at the security checkpoint). A backpack (or purse) with room to easily stuff some things (like watch, phone, wallet, etc.) quickly.

At airport:

1) If they check a bag (it's probably free if they're in F, but just verify that as I'm not familiar with AA's bag policies), make sure anything they will need immediately is in their carryon (and hopefully they don't need anything on the no-carryon list).

2) They will need to show their ID at the check-in counter and at security. They will also need to show their boarding pass at the security line. Have these items ready.

3) Put jewelry, wallet, phone, etc. in purse/backpack (nothing in clothing pockets) to not have to deal with the small trays at the security checkpoint.

4) Follow signage to gate, and keep an eye on the departure boards. Gate changes may occur before departure time, so if their posted boarding time (which is typically 30-45 minutes before departure time) comes and no announcements are made, check to see if there has been a change.

5) They don't get lounge access with a domestic F ticket. There's no point in trying to talk their way in for free. If they pay the one-time pass fee to get in (or if they have access to another lounge through a credit card or whatever), there will *not* be flight announcements from the lounge. It's up to them to make it to the gate before boarding.

On board:

1) Larger carryon overhead, smaller carryon under the seat in front of them.

2) In F, meals and drinks are complimentary.

3) Know how to set the phone to airplane mode, and do so. Phones and tablets are allowed (in airplane mode) at all times. If they have a laptop, it's only allowed above (IIRC) 10,000 feet. Basically, listen for announcements.

4) Download the airline app beforehand. I think some AA flights use wi-fi based entertainment, which probably requires the app to be installed (I know United does). You'd have to pay for airline wi-fi to download the app, but wi-fi based entertainment through the app is free.

5) The pilots will typically make an announcement when they start their descent. While they generally don't explicitly say so, this is the "last call" for restroom use until the plane arrives at the gate. Plan accordingly.


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## PRR 60

On AA F, you can pre-order your meals 30 days in advance (up to 24 hours in advance). Within 30 days of travel, go to AA.com "Your Trips," select the trip or enter the reservation number and name to find the trip. Meal selection will be an option for each passenger. CLT-SEA is a full meal service flight with drinks, warmed nuts, hot towel, appetizer, meal, dessert (custom made ice cream sundae - very nice), and later a snack basket (assuming dinner). It's a pleasant way to spend a few hours.

CLT-SEA uses legacy US Airways A321's. These aircraft have no at-seat power or built in entertainment system. However, AA offers on-demand movies and TV streamed to your own device. If using a tablet, they will need to have the AA app installed. GoGo wifi will also be available at about $19 for each flight.

I would lean toward checking luggage (free for First). It can be nice to not have to drag bags along and deal with the overhead space issue. Even though they are in First, some of the overhead space in F is filled with safety equipment and Row 1 has to put everything up there since there is no under seat space ahead. Not being worried about overhead space also means they do not have to be gate lice*. F gets Group 1 boarding, so they will be on early regardless, but maneuvering to ensure they are among the first of the first group will not be needed. First passengers in theory get priority baggage handling, but that is a bit hit and miss.

_*Gate Lice: persons who hover at the entrance to the Jetway in order to board as soon as gate opens._


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## SarahZ

Take your shoes/belt/jacket off *before* you get to the bins.

Put your travel size shampoo/etc in a Ziploc and keep it in the front zipper pocket of your suitcase. It makes it easy to take it out and put it back when going through security.

Same for the laptop. Have it ready to go in a separate bin.

Don’t wear lots of stuff that’ll encumber you. I put my jacket in my bag and wear slip-on shoes (ballet flats) instead of something with laces.

If you put your carry-on in the overhead bin, place it facing wheels out. That’ll ensure 2-3 others can get theirs in. Don’t lay it sideways.

I put my purse under the seat but lay the strap on my knee. Once we’re in the air, that makes it easy to pull it up and get stuff out of it.

The window seat can get very cold. Either put the “always warm” person in that seat or use your jacket as a buffer/pillow along the wall.


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## railiner

Watch the safety demonstration, and follow along on the seatback cards. Memorize the location of the nearest emergency exits.

Drink plenty of water...the pressurized air is extremely dry.

Try to do some isometric exercises in your seat, for your feet and legs...there are tips for this and more in the airline's seatback magazine.

To clear your ears when descending for landing, make a "yawning" motion with your jaw, to help equalize the pressure.


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## blueman271

As PRR 60 stated the ex-US Airways airplanes don’t have any type of screens or plugs even in F. So make sure the tablet and phone are charged prior to getting on the plane. Also prepare your friends for a long flight. I flew this route back in January and it was a six and a half hour flight gate to gate.


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## Devil's Advocate

In addition to not packing or carrying anything the TSA is going to freak out about, my main piece of advice I have for new flyers is to always maintain some basic situational awareness. When you feel the need to stop and reconsider your options please don't park yourself in the middle of the aisle or walkway forcing everyone else to slam to a halt or walk around you. Take a moment to step aside so others can pass while you figure out what you need to do.


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## bmjhagen9426

Devil's Advocate said:


> In addition to not packing or carrying anything the TSA is going to freak out about, my main piece of advice I have for new flyers is to always maintain some basic situational awareness. When you feel the need to stop and reconsider your options please don't park yourself in the middle of the aisle or walkway forcing everyone else to slam to a halt or walk around you. Take a moment to step aside so others can pass while you figure out what you need to do.


Even something looking innocent like a pen or an alarm clock can sometimes trigger the airport screener. Had that happen to me five years ago at Seatac Airport. When one of my bags were xrayed, it somehow raised an alert so the screener requested that my bag be opened, and found an alarm clock. I was let through shortly after when the screeners determined the items in the bag as harmless. Went on to the South Concourse to board my plane.


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## AmtrakBlue

railiner said:


> Watch the safety demonstration, and follow along on the seatback cards. Memorize the location of the nearest emergency exits.
> 
> Drink plenty of water...the pressurized air is extremely dry.
> 
> Try to do some isometric exercises in your seat, for your feet and legs...there are tips for this and more in the airline's seatback magazine.
> 
> To clear your ears when descending for landing, make a "yawning" motion with your jaw, to help equalize the pressure.


I always wear knee high socks when flying. 
Yawning or swallowing works for the ears. Some people chew gum or suck on hard candy to “force” the swallowing.


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## seat38a

Maglev said:


> My wife's best friend and her husband will be taking their first flight ever from CLT to SEA on AA. We bought them F tickets, and also sent them a pair of carry-on size suitcases. I don't want to overwhelm them with advice, but also know how important preparation is. What are a few important things I should tell them? Should they check their luggage?
> 
> This same couple came out here for our wedding in 2004 on Amtrak, and had a great trip. But Bedrooms cost twice as much as airfare, and they don't have enough time now to travel by train.


If they are checking their bags, tell them to put something obnoxious on it like a colorful ribbon, bandana or something along those lines on it. Bags look alike and 2 weeks ago, someone walked off with my dads bag which was the EXACT same brand and color. The guy did later in the day returned it back to United and United shipped it back to my parents house. Have them double check the name on the tags when they pick up their bags.

Oh and to make it really special, send them couple of day passes to the Admirals Club in CLT.


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## cpotisch

They won't be able to move around much, so they should make sure that what they're wearing will be very comfortable to sit in for hours on end. Keep all their liquids in a ziplock bag with the air sucked out, so as to avoid any explosions/leaks/messes as the air pressures drops.

I'll fill you in on the security process a bit, however you should probably make sure to look on the TSA website to see everything you can and can't bring. During the security process, they will have to empty their pockets, and take off shoes, jackets, and belts. All of that, along with the rest of their stuff, will go in bins to be put through the x-ray machine. They then have the option to either go through the body scan machine, or the can request a pat-down from one of the security officers (if you feel uncomfortable getting microwaved).

Hope any of that helps.


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## Railroad Bill

We did the PRE-TSA documents and it made our flights more enjoyable. No long lines waiting for security. At SEATAC the lines were very long in the regular check while there were only two people a head of us and you do not have to take off your shoes, etc. It is $85 for a 5 year pass, but well worth it especially for people who fly often.


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## Ryan

That varies widely. At BWI the PreCheck lines are frequently longer than the regular security lines. Much easier to move through, though.


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## Seaboard92

The other item that works for ears popping is hard candy. When I was younger I used to put one in my mouth and then just swish it around in my mouth.


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## Devil's Advocate

At my home airport the TSA Paid Security line closes several hours before the last flight departs, so if you have an evening or nighttime flight you get no benefit whatsoever.


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## XHRTSP

Maglev said:


> What are a few important things I should tell them?


It is perfectly acceptable to let the ticket agents, TSA, gate agents, flight attendants, etc know that you are a first time flyer. If there is any confusion as to where they need to be going, or what they need to be doing, they should just speak up. Everyone who flies has a first flight, people understand.

On the return leg, SEATAC has some great restaurants. Try Anthony's, Beecher's, Dilettante...


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## cpotisch

Railroad Bill said:


> We did the PRE-TSA documents and it made our flights more enjoyable. No long lines waiting for security. At SEATAC the lines were very long in the regular check while there were only two people a head of us and you do not have to take off your shoes, etc. It is $85 for a 5 year pass, but well worth it especially for people who fly often.


I would definitely recommend Pre-Check for anyone who flies a few times a year or more, however I don't think it would make sense for someone flying for the first time. If they end up flying multiple times, sure, but if they only do it once, that's $85 down the drain for one flight.


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## Trogdor

Devil's Advocate said:


> my main piece of advice I have for new flyers is to always maintain some basic situational awareness. When you feel the need to stop and reconsider your options please don't park yourself in the middle of the aisle or walkway forcing everyone else to slam to a halt or walk around you. Take a moment to step aside so others can pass while you figure out what you need to do.


This should apply to anyone, anywhere. That should apply to streets and sidewalks as much as airports.


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## trainman74

Devil's Advocate said:


> At my home airport the TSA Paid Security line closes several hours before the last flight departs, so if you have an evening or nighttime flight you get no benefit whatsoever.


Not even a colored card to take with you through security so you don't have to take your shoes off? That's what I've gotten in the past when the Pre-Check line has been unavailable/closed (but I don't think I've been to your home airport).


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## Devil's Advocate

trainman74 said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> At my home airport the TSA Paid Security line closes several hours before the last flight departs, so if you have an evening or nighttime flight you get no benefit whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> Not even a colored card to take with you through security so you don't have to take your shoes off? That's what I've gotten in the past when the Pre-Check line has been unavailable/closed (but I don't think I've been to your home airport).
Click to expand...

Did they offer it or did you have to ask for it? There's still an after hours airline staff "lane" that I might try next time just to see what they do.


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## Maglev

Since they're flying first class, they get some kind of priority security, but I don't see on the AA website if it's specifically Pre Check. When my wife and I flew first on Delta in December, we went through Pre Check. They can go to the TSA website to see what is okay to take.

I don't think I'll get them lounge passes--I think it would be safer if they just wait at the gate.

Thanks for all the great tips!


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## jis

When IAD shuts down its Pre-Check (and Clear) Checkpoint around 9 or 10pm, after that Pre-Check or not everyone goes through the non Pre-Check rigmarole at the only open Checkpoint. Been there and done that a couple of times on my last flight of the day back from IAD to MCO. But at that time it really is no big deal, because there is hardly any line anyway. Just the inconvenience of the shoe thing and the pull all electronics out thing and the scanner instead of magnetometer thing.


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## seat38a

Maglev said:


> Since they're flying first class, they get some kind of priority security, but I don't see on the AA website if it's specifically Pre Check. When my wife and I flew first on Delta in December, we went through Pre Check. They can go to the TSA website to see what is okay to take.
> 
> I don't think I'll get them lounge passes--I think it would be safer if they just wait at the gate.
> 
> Thanks for all the great tips!


If the choice is between everyone lane, priority lane or TSAPre. The order of choice is:

1. TSAPre

2. Priority Lane

3. Everyone Lane

Not sure if your friends will get the random TSAPre since this is their first time flying. If they do not, then the next best is the Priority/Premier Lane which gives you a shorter line to the ID check but still have to take your shoes(Unless they are 75+) off and pull your electronics out.


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## AmtrakBlue

Maglev said:


> Since they're flying first class, they get some kind of priority security, but I don't see on the AA website if it's specifically Pre Check. When my wife and I flew first on Delta in December, we went through Pre Check. They can go to the TSA website to see what is okay to take.
> 
> I don't think I'll get them lounge passes--I think it would be safer if they just wait at the gate.
> 
> Thanks for all the great tips!


It should say on their boarding pass if they have pre-check. I was surprised a few years ago when AA gave me pre-check. Now I check my boarding pass for it whenever I fly.


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## cpotisch

I've gotten random Pre-Check plenty of times, but I think minors get it more often than adults. It's certainly possible that they end up with Pre Check, and that would be a blessing for some first time flyers, but it really doesn't seem too likely to me.


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## jis

Be aware though, that recently, TSA has drastically cut down granting random access to TSA-Pre upon hearing complaints from members of the TSA-Pre program who shelled out money to get the facility.


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## trainman74

Devil's Advocate said:


> trainman74 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not even a colored card to take with you through security so you don't have to take your shoes off? That's what I've gotten in the past when the Pre-Check line has been unavailable/closed (but I don't think I've been to your home airport).
> 
> 
> 
> Did they offer it or did you have to ask for it? There's still an after hours airline staff "lane" that I might try next time just to see what they do.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've been proactively offered that after scanning my boarding pass (noticeable because it makes a different-sounding beep when you're Pre-Check eligible), at both Burbank and another airport that I can't remember -- the secondary checkpoint at Pittsburgh, it might have been.


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## tp49

If the plane doesn't have at seat power and the flight is during the day, they may want to invest in a solar powered power bank/charger so they don't have to ration the device based IFE. It's helped me out on Southwest a few times.


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## railiner

tp49 said:


> If the plane doesn't have at seat power and the flight is during the day, they may want to invest in a solar powered power bank/charger so they don't have to ration the device based IFE. It's helped me out on Southwest a few times.


How well does that work? I would think to get any real benefit, you would have to be seated near the sunny side window, and tape the panel over the window...


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## cpotisch

Any decent/modern computer or phone should be able to make it through a cross country flight without recharging. You might have trouble with an older device, which might be less efficient and/or have a worn out battery, in which case I might recommend a battery pack. However solar powered chargers are usually pretty expensive and don't provide much power, so IMO they are pretty limited in usefulness and value.


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## jis

There is no charging need for a six hour flight that a Mophie battery together with the internal battery of a modern solid state memory device, won't adequately take care of. Indeed mine takes care of even 16 hour flights adequately. I seldom plug into any charging port on planes. They are just fallback things just in case.


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## tp49

railiner said:


> tp49 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the plane doesn't have at seat power and the flight is during the day, they may want to invest in a solar powered power bank/charger so they don't have to ration the device based IFE. It's helped me out on Southwest a few times.
> 
> 
> 
> How well does that work? I would think to get any real benefit, you would have to be seated near the sunny side window, and tape the panel over the window...
Click to expand...

Works fine, I almost always have a window seat and as long as there's daylight on the tray table it does what I need it to do. Got the charger last year off of Groupon for about $25 and it also has a built-in power bank.

-----------

The device I use in flight happens to be an older iPad which won't stay fully charged for the duration of a transcon, let alone some of the 16-hour flights I take. Additionally, it's not always feasible to fully charge the device prior to the flight (meetings run late, outlets at a premium in the airport, etc.)


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## cpotisch

I second the advice to bring gum for dealing with the air pressure change. Also ear plugs, since the engines can be annoying for some people.


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## jis

cpotisch said:


> I second the advice to bring gum for dealing with the air pressure change. Also ear plugs, since the engines can be annoying for some people.


I actually prefer noise canceling headphones. Even without music they serve well to shut the noise out almost completely, and with music they are even better


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## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I second the advice to bring gum for dealing with the air pressure change. Also ear plugs, since the engines can be annoying for some people.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually prefer noise canceling headphones. Even without music they serve well to shut the noise out almost completely, and with music they are even better
Click to expand...

I prefer noise canceling headphones as well. If you have them is another story.


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## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I second the advice to bring gum for dealing with the air pressure change. Also ear plugs, since the engines can be annoying for some people.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually prefer noise canceling headphones. Even without music they serve well to shut the noise out almost completely, and with music they are even better
Click to expand...

The engines don't bother me much, unless I'm right behind the trailing edge of a B772 or in the last few rows of an MD8X, but portable game systems and crying babies bother me plenty. Never found a set of noise canceling headphones that could block those types of sounds. After reading that the new A350 has a much quieter HVAC system I'm hesitant to choose one for a long haul trip. Seems like the loss of calm white noise might only sound good until it falls victim to the law of unintended consequences.


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## cpotisch

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I second the advice to bring gum for dealing with the air pressure change. Also ear plugs, since the engines can be annoying for some people.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually prefer noise canceling headphones. Even without music they serve well to shut the noise out almost completely, and with music they are even better
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The engines don't bother me much, unless I'm right behind the trailing edge of a B772 or in the last few rows of an MD8X, but portable game systems and crying babies bother me plenty. Never found a set of noise canceling headphones that could block those types of sounds. After reading that the new A350 has a much quieter HVAC system I'm hesitant to choose one for a long haul trip. Seems like the loss of calm white noise might only sound good until it falls victim to the law of unintended consequences.
Click to expand...

I personally don't care much about engines either, but I've heard people go on angry tangents about the "terrible noise" of the engines in something as quiet as an A321. Ambient noise usually makes up much more of the problem, but most train travelers are used to that. Either way, earplugs are good to have.


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## railiner

I don't find the engine noise bothersome at all...I find the slipstream noise more annoying at full cruising speed. Makes it hard for me to hear conversations. Maybe its an individual thing based on ones hearing acuity?


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## Devil's Advocate

cpotisch said:


> I personally don't care much about engines either, but I've heard people go on angry tangents about the "terrible noise" of the engines in something as quiet as an A321. Ambient noise usually makes up much more of the problem, but most train travelers are used to that. Either way, earplugs are good to have.


That is quite odd. In my experience (A300 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A388) Airbus aircraft are surprisingly quiet. If anything their engines seem to spook infrequent passengers into believing there might not be enough thrust to achieve and maintain positive lift.



railiner said:


> I don't find the engine noise bothersome at all...I find the slipstream noise more annoying at full cruising speed. Makes it hard for me to hear conversations. Maybe its an individual thing based on ones hearing acuity?


Other than when I'm seated/standing near an emergency exit door on a widebody aircraft I rarely notice the sound of external air friction over the combined ambient noise of other sources.


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## railiner

I don't know what 'WRT' stands for...

Anyway, you hear the slipstream noise on all aircraft. At first, the engine sound on takeoff is dominant, but as the speed increases to full cruising speed, the slipstream noise pretty much covers it up, unless you are in the rear, next to a fuselage mounted engine on an MD80, perhaps.

Some people like its "white noise" effect, as it also covers up other sounds like babies crying to some degree. Here is a sound recording of that sound, albeit, only at full speed...it doesn't show the difference from takeoff...


I find it difficult to hear the flight attendants, when they come around taking food and beverage orders. Normally, my hearing is very good, on the ground.

I actually like that "white noise" from the HVAC on Amfleet and Superliner's....for the same reason. Helps me sleep. It is only when it suddenly stops, that I awaken...


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## jis

Amfleet's HVAC is really noisy compared to many other AC car types that I have ridden all over the world.


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## cpotisch

railiner said:


> At first, the engine sound on takeoff is dominant, but as the speed increases to full cruising speed, the slipstream noise pretty much covers it up,


I would also note that most planes will be using less thrust at cruising altitude than on takeoff.


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## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> At first, the engine sound on takeoff is dominant, but as the speed increases to full cruising speed, the slipstream noise pretty much covers it up,
> 
> 
> 
> I would also note that most planes will be using less thrust at cruising altitude than on takeoff.
Click to expand...

Don't you know, they turn off the engines when cruising. They go into glider mode because so many people complained about the noise.


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## railiner

What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...

It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....


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## jis

railiner said:


> What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...
> 
> It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....


Yeah, Orange County (John Wayne) comes to mind



. San Diego too. OTOH, it is the most fun taking off from those too as they try to gain as much altitude as possible before passing the airport noise perimeter and throttle down. 757 takeoffs are real fun.


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## cpotisch

railiner said:


> What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...
> 
> It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....


I didn't know they did that at all. Don't they have to keep throttle at climb thrust or above while climbing? I feel like the engines would have to be REALLY loud for that to be necessary. I could be wrong, it just surprises me.


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## jis

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...
> 
> It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know they did that at all. Don't they have to keep throttle at climb thrust or above while climbing? I feel like the engines would have to be REALLY loud for that to be necessary. I could be wrong, it just surprises me.
Click to expand...

Standard practice at places like Orange County and San Diego.

In Newark too they have to ease off some while making crazy turns after takeoff to stay within the permitted noise abatement corridors.

And then again, in heavy traffic TCAs it may be simply because a higher level is not available until getting a little further out.


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## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures...It doesn't seem as common as it used to, thanks to new, quieter high bypass engines....


Why does that bother you? I live near an airport and even though I don't mind the sound of aircraft I can understand the benefit of noise abatement. By reducing thrust and routing aircraft over less affected commercial zones residential areas benefit from a quieter and more peaceful existence. This keeps neighbors happy and airports productive with fewer legal and political distractions. Most of the time the protocol does its job and I don't even think about it, but every once in a while during a major storm or other irregular event there can be a sudden increase in sound as the noise abatement protocol is suspended for safety reasons. The sudden increase in sound can startle and annoy people who are used to quieter living but rarely lasts more than an hour or two. All in all it seems like a small price to pay to keep most people happy.



cpotisch said:


> I didn't know they did that at all. Don't they have to keep throttle at climb thrust or above while climbing? I feel like the engines would have to be REALLY loud for that to be necessary. I could be wrong, it just surprises me.


It's less of an issue on the newest aircraft but try listening to an MD8X take off from behind or below the jet blast. It's super loud, even for my tired old ears, and it's impossible to ignore if you're anywhere near it.


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## cpotisch

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's less of an issue on the newest aircraft but try listening to an MD8X take off from behind or below the jet blast. It's super loud, even for my tired old ears, and it's impossible to ignore if you're anywhere near it.


An MD-88 or -83 taking off on full throttle is pretty much unbearable if you're in the rear. Even though it only lasts for maybe 20 or 30 seconds, it's quite unpleasant. When you compare it to the whisper of the engines on an E-Jet or A32X, it's night and day.


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## jis

Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin'


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## cpotisch

jis said:


> Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin'


Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...


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## railiner

I understand the reason for it, but it is a little disconcerting when you feel the illusion of 'dropping' momentarily while in a steep climb-out, even though you are actually still climbing.

Noise was really a problem back in the turbo-jet era, before the high bypass fanjets. Early 707's, 727's, etc., used to rattle my windows, and set off car alarms. I am only about 4 miles from the end of LGA runway 13. And back then, we didn't have A/C, so summertime we had our windows open...


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## jis

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...
Click to expand...

Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.

The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.


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## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.
> 
> The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.
Click to expand...

I know there was a military version of the JT8D that did have afterburners, however that was never fitted to the 707s. I don't mean to challenge you on this, but I'm pretty sure the 707s never had afterburners...


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## railiner

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.
> 
> The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.
Click to expand...

I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast.

What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC


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## cpotisch

railiner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heh! If you have not experienced a 707 with afterburners on, you ain't experienced nuthin'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Afterburners? 707 didn't have afterburners...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Early turbojet ones did.The so called high bypass Turbofans came a bit later. I have seen, heard and do remember them. People have very little idea today about how precarious the early 707s were. They could barely make it across the pond, and often required diversions to Gander or Shannon and such places, if they were not already a scheduled service stop.
> 
> The trail of dark black smoke during the takeoff run and climb out used to be quite impressive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast.
> 
> What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC
Click to expand...

I'm looking it up now, and everything says that the Concorde and TU-144 (the Russian equivalent) were the only civilian aircraft ever to have afterburners.


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## jis

OK, maybe I am remembering wrong. But the early ones had these trail of smoke spewing out the back of the engine. maybe it was something else.

Right the P&W J75s on 707s did not have afterburners. Nor did the GE J79 on the Convair 880 and 990. As I recall, the Convairs were even more smoky than the 707s. So it was just that they were Turbojets with cooler cores and with water injection that produce the smoky exhaust.

These were followed by the JT3D. The low bypass JT8D and the Rolls Royce Conway came a few years later.

I never had a chance to fly in a J75 or JT3D powered 707. But I did fly in 707s powered by both JT8D and RR Conway (the 420 version of 707 flown by both BOAC and Air india), though my first flight was on a JT8D powered 707 of Air India.


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## Devil's Advocate

railiner said:


> I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast. What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC


Your 707 explanation is correct, at least so far as I am aware, but the Concorde afterburners were actually engaged during takeoff, then disengaged shortly afterward while flying over land and then reengaged over the ocean again until nominal cruising speed was attained.


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## railiner

Devil's Advocate said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast. What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC
> 
> 
> 
> Your 707 explanation is correct, at least so far as I am aware, but the Concorde afterburners were actually engaged during takeoff, then disengaged shortly afterward while flying over land and then reengaged over the ocean again until nominal cruising speed was attained.
Click to expand...

That sounds logical...one thing for sure...they didn't go supersonic until well off the coast....


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## railiner

railiner said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast. What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC
> 
> 
> 
> Your 707 explanation is correct, at least so far as I am aware, but the Concorde afterburners were actually engaged during takeoff, then disengaged shortly afterward while flying over land and then reengaged over the ocean again until nominal cruising speed was attained.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That sounds logical...one thing for sure...they didn't go supersonic until well off the coast....
Click to expand...

I recall when they had an interchange flight with Braniff...LHR-IAD-DFW....

They remained subsonic, although faster than anything else, while operated by Braniff...


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## jis

railiner said:


> I recall when they had an interchange flight with Braniff...LHR-IAD-DFW....
> 
> They remained subsonic, although faster than anything else, while operated by Braniff...


Yes, they did. LHR - IAD - DFW was BA/Braniff and CDG - JFK - DFW was AF/Braniff (or maybe it was the other way round - don;t quite recall, but both LHR and CDG were involved with BA and AF respectively). To avoid cabotage issues, the aircraft changed registration and lease ownership for the US leg to Braniff.This included putting a US registration number sticker covering the British/French registration on the plane for the duration of its flight within the US. It was really quite curious.


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## cpotisch

Devil's Advocate said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about after-burner's in a civilian aircraft, other than the Concorde, which did not engage them until well off the coast. What really gave those early 707's smoke, was water-injection, used for extra takeoff thrust, IIRC
> 
> 
> 
> Your 707 explanation is correct, at least so far as I am aware, but the Concorde afterburners were actually engaged during takeoff, then disengaged shortly afterward while flying over land and then reengaged over the ocean again until nominal cruising speed was attained.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the Concorde engaged afterburners on takeoff, disengaged them while flying over land, and then had to engage them again to punch through the sound barrier. Once it was at cruising speed, they disengaged the burners and supercruised from there on out.


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## trainman74

jis said:


> To avoid cabotage issues, the aircraft changed registration and lease ownership for the US leg to Braniff.This included putting a US registration number sticker covering the British/French registration on the plane for the duration of its flight within the US. It was really quite curious.


Too bad _this_ never actually existed:


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## MARC Rider

Back around 1962 or thereabouts, my first flight was BAL (that was the code back then, BWI was the code for sime airport in Papua New Guinea) to MIA on a DC7. Talk about noisy in the cabin with 4 piston engines making quite the racket. We also flew at relatively low altitude, in and out of the cloulds and a rode like a roller coaster. When I was 15, I had an adventure of a charter flight with the Scouts in a DC4, 13 hours from Spokane to Philly, including a fueling stop in Rockford, IL. That was also pretty noisy. In fact, the turboprop commuter flights I've been on have also been more noisy than a jet, even the older jets. Is the main noise factor the enginr type (piston vs turbo) or the presence or absence of propellors as thrust generator?


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## cpotisch

MARC Rider said:


> In fact, the turboprop commuter flights I've been on have also been more noisy than a jet, even the older jets. Is the main noise factor the enginr type (piston vs turbo) or the presence or absence of propellors as thrust generator?


Because the propellers are whipping through the air without anything enclosing it (which you would have in a jet), there isn’t much sheltering you from the sound of large metal blades whipping through the air. Also bear in mind that many turboprop aircraft in commercial service tend to be on the older side, and since they’re often pretty small, you might not be far from the engines. I would also note that the props are usually directly in front of the wings, whereas jet engines are forward and beneath he wings. Most of the noise you hear realize from a jet engine is the exhaust; which would be sheltered from passengers by the wing. Meanwhile the props are high up and right next to where the passengers are, which makes them that much noisier.


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## railiner

trainman74 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> To avoid cabotage issues, the aircraft changed registration and lease ownership for the US leg to Braniff.This included putting a US registration number sticker covering the British/French registration on the plane for the duration of its flight within the US. It was really quite curious.
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad _this_ never actually existed:
Click to expand...

Besides interchanging with Braniff...both BA to London, and AF to Paris, as jis has mentioned, BA also interchanged with Singapore Airlines on a London-Bahrain-Singapore flight.

One BA Concorde was painted with Singapore livery on one side, and BA on the other.

The big difference between the operations, was only the flight attendants from Singapore worked their portion, the BA pilots went all the way.

With Braniff, the entire crew were Braniff. The Braniff pilots were trained and qualified on the Concorde--even supersonic, although they never flew their portion supersonic.


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## SarahZ

railiner said:


>



Thank you so much for posting this. I like that I feel like I'm traveling. What a cool effect. I keep expecting to feel some gentle turbulence. It's helping with my travel withdrawal.





Like you, the HVAC sound on trains helps me relax and sleep. I barely notice it until it's gone. Then I can hear EVERYTHING. It drives me bonkers. The white noise covers up so many random sounds. That's one reason I always sleep with a box fan. Without my fan, it's so quiet I can't sleep. Every little noise wakes me up.

I use a little fan at work for the same reason. I like the white noise, and I like that it keeps the air moving. I can't stand stale, stuffy air. When I'm on a plane, I point the air nozzle right at my face.


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## crescent2

SarahZ said:


>




One of the many things I like about Alexa (I have a couple of Dots) are the sleep sounds skills (apps). There are several plane and train ones, along with about anything else you could imagine from guitars to washing machines. The distant trains are probably my favorite. Lots of box fans, too, for you. Of course, they don't blow air in your face, but you can't have everything.


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## railiner

I have an old-fashioned, pre-electronic, mechanical white noise generator buried away somewhere...you can 'tune' it to sound almost exactly like the the air whooshing out of the Amfleet ceiling slots....

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Marpac-Dohm-Classic-Original-White-Noise-Machine/9893172?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227001207145&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40843788392&wl4=pla-59798934471&wl5=9004392&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=9893172&wl13=&veh=sem


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## cpotisch

crescent2 said:


>


We had never wanted an Echo, but last year my dad won a Dot accidentally at a tech conference, so he brought it home and have kept it set up in our kitchen ever since. We use it mainly for radio, music, and the shopping list, but occasionally for its sleep skills. We probably would never have bought one for the $49 list price, but it's a great deal if you snag one for free!


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## XHRTSP

railiner said:


> What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures....


No we don't do that, that's not how noise abatement works. If there is a large noticable thrust reduction, followed by a spool up back to climb power, it's due to a momentary level off. That could be for airspace considerations, crossing traffic, or other reasons, but not noise abatement.


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## railiner

XHRTSP said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I dislike, is when while climbing, they sometimes reduce throttle for a period, for noise abatement procedures....
> 
> 
> 
> No we don't do that, that's not how noise abatement works. If there is a large noticable thrust reduction, followed by a spool up back to climb power, it's due to a momentary level off. That could be for airspace considerations, crossing traffic, or other reasons, but not noise abatement.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that up....


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