# New Amtrak Moynihan train hall at NYP



## adamj023 (Nov 13, 2020)

It is hard to believe that the new Moynihan train hall will finally be ready soon which will make using Amtrak at Penn Station in NYC so much nicer in every way including the new Metropolitan Lounge! I hope they improve boarding procedures. I presume NJ Transit will take over the existing space as NJ Transit which built their facilities in former Amtrak office spaces was a very tight space although I assume Amtrak customers will still be able to access the tracks from the older facility. The Moynihan train hall will be the busiest Amtrak facility and will definitely improve Amtrak and be used to showcase the new Avelia Liberty trains which also will be in service in the not too distant future. I have vivid memories of taking Amtrak in the old section with the Solari board still in place and the round hallway section. It was very disappointing for a first class city like New York City.


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## lordsigma (Dec 26, 2020)

What would probably be bigger news if it wasn't for the pandemic and the resulting cuts - Moynihan train hall opens Friday New Years Day. Cannot wait to see it - I'll be seeing it Monday the fourth during my layover returning on 98 from SC. I will provide some photos if no one else on AU visits before then.


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## PVD (Dec 26, 2020)

The biggest thing might be to see what the new lounge looks like, also, it (the train hall) will be closed overnight, and anything that comes in overnight will still be serviced from the other side. But since it is closed overnight, they have no legal issues with shooing people out at closing time.


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## joelkfla (Dec 26, 2020)

There were news stories last summer that Amtrak was behind schedule, and Amtrak facilities might not open fully with the rest of the Hall. Has that been remedied?


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## lordsigma (Dec 26, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> There were news stories last summer that Amtrak was behind schedule, and Amtrak facilities might not open fully with the rest of the Hall. Has that been remedied?


I got an email stating that my boarding location will be Moynihan for my trip Jan 4 I’m hoping the new lounge will be open.


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## jiml (Dec 26, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I will provide some photos if no one else on AU visits before then.


Look forward to the pics!


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## Manny T (Dec 26, 2020)

Very happy opening day is finally here. In 2001 I wrote the following words in a journal: 

"S-Bahn passed the construction site of Berlin's new central railway station, Lehrter Bahnhof....The scope of the construction is truly amazing....New York City has been trying for decades, so far unsuccessfully, to move the train tracks and the entrance to Pennsylvania Station exactly one block west. I am quite certain that in the time it will take to break ground on this modest project, Lehrter Bahnhof will be up and running."

Lehrter Bahnhof now renamed Berlin Hauptbahnhof opened in 2006.


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## railiner (Dec 26, 2020)

Manny T said:


> New York City has been trying for decades, so far unsuccessfully, to move the train tracks and the entrance to Pennsylvania Station exactly one block west.


Only the waiting room, not the tracks...


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## mfastx (Dec 27, 2020)

So does anyone know the plans for the old Amtrak space at NYP? Will it be operating in parallel? Will it be refurbished/remodeled for just NJT (god I hope so)?


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## Steve4031 (Dec 27, 2020)

I will be making a trip to see this once things settle down.


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## railiner (Dec 28, 2020)

PVD said:


> The biggest thing might be to see what the new lounge looks like, also, it (the train hall) will be closed overnight, and anything that comes in overnight will still be serviced from the other side. But since it is closed overnight, they have no legal issues with shooing people out at closing time.





mfastx said:


> So does anyone know the plans for the old Amtrak space at NYP? Will it be operating in parallel? Will it be refurbished/remodeled for just NJT (god I hope so)?


In view of PVD's post, I would suspect that Amtrak will still need a presence in the existing space, to serve train's 66&67, or any other that operates "off-hours"...


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## Palmetto (Dec 28, 2020)

railiner said:


> In view of PVD's post, I would suspect that Amtrak will still need a presence in the existing space, to serve train's 66&67, or any other that operates "off-hours"...



That is correct.

From Amtrak, directly:

*Hours of Operations*
Moynihan Train Hall will be open to the public daily from 5 am through 1 am and closed to the public between 1 am and 5 am. Between 1 am and 5 am, all Amtrak operations will be handled at New York Penn Station, including baggage, Red Cap services, access and egress to platforms


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## Palmetto (Dec 28, 2020)

Apparently, there will not be any eating places in it. And "Club Acela" is again being named "Metropolitan Lounge"


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## lordsigma (Dec 28, 2020)

railiner said:


> In view of PVD's post, I would suspect that Amtrak will still need a presence in the existing space, to serve train's 66&67, or any other that operates "off-hours"...


For a period of time after MTH opening, Amtrak will staff and fully serve both MTH and the existing Amtrak concourse at current Penn. After a transitionary period, MTH will exclusively serve as the full service staffed Amtrak station and the old concourse and ticketed waiting area will remain open mainly as additional concourse space for NJT passengers as well as an unmanned station for Amtrak for passengers who wish to still use that side for convenience reasons except for the night 1AM to 5AM hours when there will be baggage and red caps available.


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## railiner (Dec 28, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> Apparently, there will not be any eating places in it. And "Club Acela" is again being named "Metropolitan Lounge"


No 'eating places'? 
I had thought from some early rendering's, that there were going to be all sorts of shops and restaurants around the new hall...


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 28, 2020)

Palmetto said:


> Apparently, there will not be any eating places in it. And "Club Acela" is again being named "Metropolitan Lounge"


"Accommodations will include a sunlit atrium boarding concourse, a combined ticketing and baggage unit, a new Metropolitan Lounge, a new reserved customer waiting room, casual waiting space with* high top tables and retail and food shops*."

nec.amtrak.com/project/moynihan-station/


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 28, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> "Accommodations will include a sunlit atrium boarding concourse, a combined ticketing and baggage unit, a new Metropolitan Lounge, a new reserved customer waiting room, casual waiting space with* high top tables and retail and food shops*."
> 
> nec.amtrak.com/project/moynihan-station/


Due to the Pandemic, the eating joints and mom and Pop shops probably wont start till things are back to business as usual @ NYP.


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## Palmetto (Dec 28, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> "Accommodations will include a sunlit atrium boarding concourse, a combined ticketing and baggage unit, a new Metropolitan Lounge, a new reserved customer waiting room, casual waiting space with* high top tables and retail and food shops*."
> 
> nec.amtrak.com/project/moynihan-station/





AmtrakBlue said:


> "Accommodations will include a sunlit atrium boarding concourse, a combined ticketing and baggage unit, a new Metropolitan Lounge, a new reserved customer waiting room, casual waiting space with* high top tables and retail and food shops*."
> 
> nec.amtrak.com/project/moynihan-station/



BIG senior moment for me on that one, LOL!


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## west point (Dec 28, 2020)

Who in their right mind would open a food establishment in MTH until the pandemic is just a memory ?


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## Willbridge (Dec 29, 2020)

west point said:


> Who in their right mind would open a food establishment in MTH until the pandemic is just a memory ?


The _Denver Post _just ran an article about new restaurants opening in the pandemic. If it's starting from scratch they can deal with issues that are difficult for established operations. For example: using ghost kitchens with delivery to shared pick up points or plain old take-out service.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 29, 2020)

west point said:


> Who in their right mind would open a food establishment in MTH until the pandemic is just a memory ?



One that wanted to sell food to people who are currently traveling by train?


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## railiner (Dec 29, 2020)

Opening a restaurant, even in the best of times is a risky business...I think I read somewhere that half of them will fail within their first six months to a year.
In this pandemic, with spikes and lockdowns, the odds of succeeding would seem to be even lower than that...


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## me_little_me (Dec 29, 2020)

railiner said:


> Opening a restaurant, even in the best of times is a risky business...I think I read somewhere that half of them will fail within their first six months to a year.
> In this pandemic, with spikes and lockdowns, the odds of succeeding would seem to be even lower than that...


In our small city, as some restaurants closed during the pandemic for various reasons, others opened up and not just where the closed ones were.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 29, 2020)

railiner said:


> Opening a restaurant, even in the best of times is a risky business...I think I read somewhere that half of them will fail within their first six months to a year.
> In this pandemic, with spikes and lockdowns, the odds of succeeding would seem to be even lower than that...



It is a very difficult business to break into just because of the sheer competition and variety in the market. Even in a small town like mine we have over 15 options for a population of less than 3,000 people. It is hard for a business to break into a market like that especially when the other competitors are well ingrained. McDonalds and other fast food restaurants have less of a problem because they have enough cash flow from other locations to subsidize a losing restaurant till it gains some share. Whereas a small restaurant will struggle the first few years to develop a following and carve out a spot of the market for themselves.


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## lordsigma (Dec 29, 2020)

jiml said:


> Look forward to the pics!


Looks like I won't be able to take pictures. Someone in my household tested positive for COVID and is showing symptoms so I had to reschedule the trip for February.


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## jiml (Dec 29, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Looks like I won't be able to take pictures. Someone in my household tested positive for COVID and is showing symptoms so I had to reschedule the trip for February.


Sorry to hear. All the best to them and stay safe.


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## Asher (Dec 30, 2020)

west point said:


> Who in their right mind would open a food establishment in MTH until the pandemic is just a memory ?


Who in their right mind wants to eat there


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 30, 2020)

anumberone said:


> Who in their right mind wants to eat there



I’ve often grabbed food in train stations and airports. Guess I’m out of my right mind!


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## Asher (Dec 30, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’ve often grabbed food in train stations and airports. Guess I’m out of my right mind!


I’ve?—Sounds like past tense. So have I


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## adamj023 (Dec 30, 2020)

The issue is the taxpayers of NY got bilked on this project as it cost 1.6 billion dollars just to retrofit the building. You could build more complicated projects for less money.

With that being said, it allows for much better traffic flow and modernizes the facilities even more which will contine to improve over time. Amtrak, LIRR and NJ Transit riders all benefit from this project.


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## Exvalley (Dec 30, 2020)

You can see inside the new hall here:








Take a look inside Penn Station’s new Moynihan Train Hall


The public got its first glimpse inside Penn Station’s new train hall at the historic Farley Post Office Building during a ribbon-cutting ceremony on Wednesday. Moynihan Train Hall — wh…




nypost.com


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## joelkfla (Dec 30, 2020)

Exvalley said:


> You can see inside the new hall here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just about 2 secs. of a static photo. See much, much more here: "This Is A Work Of Art": Cuomo Cuts Ribbon On Light-Filled Moynihan Train Hall


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 30, 2020)

adamj023 said:


> The issue is the taxpayers of NY got bilked on this project as it cost 1.6 billion dollars just to retrofit the building. You could build more complicated projects for less money.



In NYC?


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## keelhauled (Dec 30, 2020)

The development was also a public/private partnership; the split was about $1 billion public money and $600 million private from the companies who are leasing the building.


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## glensfallsse (Dec 31, 2020)

With more space in the new terminal, will they now have us line up before getting on trains, as they do in Washington and (I think) Philly? Last time I was through they were queuing up only for Empire service. Not that it matters right now, but ... hopefully by late spring we'll all feel more comfortable traveling.


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## johnmiller (Dec 31, 2020)

Penn Station's New Slogan: "It sucks less now."


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 31, 2020)

johnmiller said:


> Penn Station's New Slogan: "It sucks less now."


I've probably ragged on NYP as much as anyone here but this is great news and a bright ray of light in a very dark era.


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## johnmiller (Dec 31, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I've probably ragged on NYP as much as anyone here but this is great news and a bright ray of light in a very dark era.




It is a good thing, for sure! Hopefully, they can get funding for the rest of Penn. That would be very cool.


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## PVD (Dec 31, 2020)

There is quite a bit of work being done already to make the LIRR main corridor more pleasant (widening, raising ceiling, improving street access) and NJT hopefully will have the money to expand and improve their space into some of the area Amtrak will no longer use. Lots of stores had to close or relocate on the LIRR level for that work, which was unfortunate, hopefully it will have been worth it.


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## joelkfla (Dec 31, 2020)

PVD said:


> There is quite a bit of work being done already to make the LIRR main corridor more pleasant (widening, raising ceiling, improving street access) and NJT hopefully will have the money to expand and improve their space into some of the area Amtrak will no longer use. Lots of stores had to close or relocate on the LIRR level for that work, which was unfortunate, hopefully it will have been worth it.


I can't remember whether it's Chicago or Washington that has the permanently unfinished ceiling in the passage to the platforms. I hope they finish the one in the LIRR area of NYP.


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## railiner (Dec 31, 2020)

They sure do let you know who that hall is named for....


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## WinNix (Dec 31, 2020)

Another article with more pictures. See Inside Moynihan Train Hall, Penn Station's Grand Addition

Plus an exterior shot from a user on reddit.


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## adamj023 (Dec 31, 2020)

PVD said:


> There is quite a bit of work being done already to make the LIRR main corridor more pleasant (widening, raising ceiling, improving street access) and NJT hopefully will have the money to expand and improve their space into some of the area Amtrak will no longer use. Lots of stores had to close or relocate on the LIRR level for that work, which was unfortunate, hopefully it will have been worth it.


The station has a ton of homeless and a huge crime problem now. I hope they improve security with the new Train Hall. With the new train hall being completed, they can close off more areas of the old station to improve it. This should improve traffic flow to the platforms but the platforms themselves will actually handle slightly less people because of the escalators going down to them. One can access the station quicker going through West End concourse and going down to tracks rather than going up to the train hall and coming back down.


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## Maglev (Dec 31, 2020)

This will be a great addition to New York, although I previously found the station to be confusing and my guess is that it would be more so now. I think the Fairfield Inn and Suites is now right outside a door of the train hall.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 31, 2020)

This is such great news and I’m so glad this project is complete. I have missed traveling this year and this has me excited to visit New York City again when the world returns to normal. 

It’s a small miracle that Amtrak was able to refurbish a large historic building that just happened to be right next door with accessibility to the tracks... I mean really the odds are crazy that this project was possible. So glad it’s a reality now.


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## adamj023 (Dec 31, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> This is such great news and I’m so glad this project is complete. I have missed traveling this year and this has me excited to visit New York City again when the world returns to normal.
> 
> It’s a small miracle that Amtrak was able to refurbish a large historic building that just happened to be right next door with accessibility to the tracks... I mean really the odds are crazy that this project was possible. So glad it’s a reality now.


Odds weren’t crazy. What happened is that postal mail used to be sorted in the hall and sent by train. As postal volumes wen’t down due to internet combined with the fact that rail isn’t used for mail anymore the facility became available for “people sorting”. That is essentially what is happening as riders use trains to get to their individual tracks. Rail volumes prepandemic were at record highs out of Penn Station. More space was desperately needed to handle the volume.

Benefits are more passageways for passengers to get to the tracks for Subway, LIRR, NJT and Amtrak along with additional lounge and retail space, and bathrooms. I don’t know if passengers have additional room in the underground track space which was quite narrow before. The West End Concourse used to be a partial concourse which was remade into a full concourse with more room and now this Train Hall with new entrances adds even more room to improve traffic flow. NJ Transit was overcrowded in their side where the tracks are and they finally integrated Amtrak with NJ Transit rather than having the NJ Transit side overcrowded. This project helps on multiple levels and will improve service for everyone.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 31, 2020)

adamj023 said:


> Odds weren’t crazy. What happened is that postal mail used to be sorted in the hall and sent by train. As postal volumes wen’t down due to internet combined with the fact that rail isn’t used for mail anymore the facility became available for “people sorting”. That is essentially what is happening as riders use trains to get to their individual tracks. Rail volumes prepandemic were at record highs out of Penn Station. More space was desperately needed to handle the volume.


 
Sorry... didn’t realize we couldn’t be excited for some rare good news. Lol.


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## jiml (Jan 1, 2021)

Maglev said:


> This will be a great addition to New York, although I previously found the station to be confusing and my guess is that it would be more so now. I think the Fairfield Inn and Suites is now right outside a door of the train hall.


If you're talking about the one on W 33rd, that's my "go to" in NYC when travelling on Amtrak, especially if connecting overnight. I see what you're saying clearly on a map. Have to wonder if there will be increased traffic though and jay-walking across to it might be a problem.


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## joelkfla (Jan 1, 2021)

jiml said:


> If you're talking about the one on W 33rd, that's my "go to" in NYC when travelling on Amtrak, especially if connecting overnight. I see what you're saying clearly on a map. Have to wonder if there will be increased traffic though and jay-walking across to it might be a problem.


Jay-walking in NYC? Heaven forbid! 

It would take a massive increase to notice any difference.


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## lordsigma (Jan 1, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Looks like I won't be able to take pictures. Someone in my household tested positive for COVID and is showing symptoms so I had to reschedule the trip for February.


Will be a bit before I can go and take pictures sadly I have COVID. Hoping for an uneventful progression of symptoms.


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## jis (Jan 1, 2021)

johnmiller said:


> It is a good thing, for sure! Hopefully, they can get funding for the rest of Penn. That would be very cool.


The main problem in the old Penn Station is that it is hard to raise the ceiling too much without first removing Madison Square Garden from above it. That will take quite a bit of doing, specially in terms of wheeling dealing with real estate folks, and a new home has to be found for MSG.


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## jiml (Jan 1, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Jay-walking in NYC? Heaven forbid!
> 
> It would take a massive increase to notice any difference.


The last few times I've been there, W 33rd was in one of the following conditions:
1. One-way.
2. A maze of concrete barriers and dumpsters, restricting traffic flow to very low speed.
3. Closed between 8th and 9th Avenues (for construction).
All these made crossing anywhere a breeze.

If it's back in normal operation and potentially busier with the new Train Hall open (taxis, etc.), just wondered if it would make sense to exit the station at a corner and cross at the lights?


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## neroden (Jan 1, 2021)

I've been staring at all the new Moynihan Train Hall photos for several hours and I finally managed to spot the elevators.

They're in front of the "Ticketed Waiting Room". A nice neat line of them, leading to tracks 7 through 17. (The elevator to tracks 5 and 6 could not be seen in the pictures; I believe it's around the corner on the southern ramp from the street into the train hall.)

This is going to massively improve the experience for Amtrak passengers who need the elevator, such as wheelchair users. The previous pathways practically required assistance from a Red Cap. You had to go down to the "Exit Concourse" first, through a single elevator which acted as a bottleneck since people going to all tracks had to use it, and then find the somewhat-inconsistently-placed elevator for your track, in a corridor which didn't really have decent information displays. Combined with Amtrak's notoriously late posting of tracks, this meant that you were unlikely to make it to the train on time if you moved slowly -- unless you had a Red Cap leading you who had a walkie-talkie. Even if you DID, I remember being led to one elevator and then having the Red Cap get new information and lead us back to a different elevator!

Now the process for Amtrak boarding via the elevator will be *normal*, like it is in other stations. All the elevators are accessible from the same Train Hall, in a nice neat line, with information displays visible.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 1, 2021)

jis said:


> The main problem in the old Penn Station is that it is hard to raise the ceiling too much without first removing Madison Square Garden from above it. That will take quite a bit of doing, specially in terms of wheeling dealing with real estate folks, and a new home has to be found for MSG.


As welcome as the new improvements will be, I think I would have preferred to have MSG relocated to Farley followed by a rebuild of Penn Station. With the improvements as they are, I'm wondering what kind of significant improvements can be made at NYP.

jb


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## John Santos (Jan 1, 2021)

I don't think much can be done about the physical layout of NYP, but having passed through it 20 or 30 times, I still find it incredible confusing.

The lighting, signage, passageways and amenities (bathrooms, etc.) could be drastically improved. Pretty much stuck with the low ceilings and confusing multi-level layout unless they tear down MSG. A spot of paint and more comfortable waiting areas (especially for the 66/67) would improve things a lot.


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## STT757 (Jan 1, 2021)

Two questions:

Has Amtrak totally vacated Penn Station or do some passenger service remain.
Will NJ Transit get to expand their footprint into Amtrak's space in Penn?


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## adamj023 (Jan 1, 2021)

STT757 said:


> Two questions:
> 
> Has Amtrak totally vacated Penn Station or do some passenger service remain.
> Will NJ Transit get to expand their footprint into Amtrak's space in Penn?



Both Amtrak sections are here to stay but most services will be migrated to the new section except from 1AM to 5AM when the old section will be open for Amtrak and the new section will be closed.

Amtrak shares the new section with the LIRR and Amtrak now shares the old section with NJ Transit. Amtrak used to have a separate section than NJ Transit such as the waiting area which had the waiting area integrated between the two. There will be ongoing work to modernize the old section of Penn Station.

Anyone can go to any section of the train station on either side, new or old, if they already know the track number but some NJ Transit tracks only can be reached with the old section.

I presume red cap services for instance will only be available at the new section except for 1AM to 5AM when it will be at the old one but its possible for Amtrak to keep services at both sections if demand is warranted.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 1, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> It is hard to believe that the new Moynihan train hall will finally be ready soon which will make using Amtrak at Penn Station in NYC so much nicer in every way including the new Metropolitan Lounge! I hope they improve boarding procedures. I presume NJ Transit will take over the existing space as NJ Transit which built their facilities in former Amtrak office spaces was a very tight space although I assume Amtrak customers will still be able to access the tracks from the older facility. The Moynihan train hall will be the busiest Amtrak facility and will definitely improve Amtrak and be used to showcase the new Avelia Liberty trains which also will be in service in the not too distant future. I have vivid memories of taking Amtrak in the old section with the Solari board still in place and the round hallway section. It was very disappointing for a first class city like New York City.



Wow! This is firing up the impulse juices to get on the train and travel to New York... a railroader's paradise! I just cancelled my trip out east scheduled for January... because I want to survive the Covid crisis and live to travel some more... a lot more... on America's fine railroads. May this new station inspire the 'wheels of government' and Amtrak Joe to bring a new era of travel to the rails; with the added bonus opportunities for all of us to view magnificent and historic scenery while supporting environmental preservation. 

Let us all keep our fingers crossed that 2021 marks a new beginning for Amtrak!


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## lordsigma (Jan 1, 2021)

I’m planning a day trip to check it out once I get over Covid before I go back to work. The photos so far look great. At one point it looked like they are planning to staff both temporarily for agents and red caps for a transitionary period.


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## adamj023 (Jan 1, 2021)

From the videos posted, doesn’t seem like the new hall is getting that much actual commuter usage. A few people showing up just to check out the new train hall. I realize the pandemic is going on. I didn’t notice any homeless in the main train hall videos but they are all over the old part of the station sleeping on the floors and stairwells. It is disgusting,

During the pandemic I suggest they shut dow the old part of the station completely sans the NJ Transit and Amtrak side and leave a corridor available to connect between the old and new sections. They can use this time to rebuild the station faster and keep the station cleaner. The homeless and crime problem needs to be rectified at Penn Station.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 1, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> The station has a ton of homeless and a huge crime problem now. I hope they improve security with the new Train Hall.



That might be why, in an attempt to address the homeless problem, that the new MTH will be closed 1AM to 5AM. No overnight stays for anyone.

Though, as I feel in other situations like this, that they have a plan in place to deal with the homeless in a more humane way than simply pushing them out onto the cold streets.


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## railiner (Jan 2, 2021)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> That might be why, in an attempt to address the homeless problem, that the new MTH will be closed 1AM to 5AM. No overnight stays for anyone.
> 
> Though, as I feel in other situations like this, that they have a plan in place to deal with the homeless in a more humane way than simply pushing them out onto the cold streets.


From what has been reported, the old section of Penn Station would still be open.

That said, I cannot understand why housing the homeless should be a railroad's problem...it should be the city's problem, and the city should solve it.

The Port Authority Bus Terminal had it much worse a couple of decades ago, and they solved it...they brought in special homeless outreach worker's, who treated the homeless compassionately, and found a place for them to go for whatever help they required.


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## daybeers (Jan 2, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> From the videos posted, doesn’t seem like the new hall is getting that much actual commuter usage. A few people showing up just to check out the new train hall. I realize the pandemic is going on. I didn’t notice any homeless in the main train hall videos but they are all over the old part of the station sleeping on the floors and stairwells. It is disgusting,
> 
> During the pandemic I suggest they shut dow the old part of the station completely sans the NJ Transit and Amtrak side and leave a corridor available to connect between the old and new sections. They can use this time to rebuild the station faster and keep the station cleaner. The homeless and crime problem needs to be rectified at Penn Station.


Where is there crime in Penn Station, and why does the fact that a human being, just the same as you and me, have so little that they have to sleep inside a train station somehow make you uncomfortable? It's disgusting that you refer to the victims of countless systematic failures of society as disgusting.

Maybe some of the $1.6 billion that was spent on this project that you have previously objected to could be spent on actual housing, job centers, and low-income transportation options instead of lining the pockets of MTA executives, politicians, and contractors.

I for one think it's disgusting the MTA has chosen to close the new train hall between 1am and 5am. Sure, it saves a few bucks on staffing, but that's not what they care about. "Out of sight, out of mind" is nearly every politician's motto, especially when it comes to homelessness.

Homelessness and poverty is an epidemic in the United States, just like its healthcare, infrastructure, transportation, justice, housing, equality, education, food, political, and labor systems, among many others. They're all connected and there is not a place in the country where these issues don't exist on some level, but rather usually exist in a disastrous way. Maybe if we spent a little less on overly flashy projects and already extremely well-funded aspects of government, we could begin to fix these systemic issues plaguing what some call "the greatest nation in the world" and everyone could benefit, not just those who already have more than enough.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 2, 2021)

Worst crime I’ve ever seen in Penn Station was a group of cops tackle a black man while he was walking towards the waiting room. He was walking slow, did not appear suspicious, or dangerous. 

He kept yelling “help” and “ I can’t breathe” - this was before Eric Garner.  

What’s the worst crime you’ve seen in New York penn @adamj023 ?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 2, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Worst crime I’ve ever seen in Penn Station was a group of cops tackle a black man while he was walking towards the waiting room. He was walking slow, did not appear suspicious, or dangerous.
> 
> He kept yelling “help” and “ I can’t breathe” - this was before Eric Garner.
> 
> What’s the worst crime you’ve seen in New York penn @adamj023 ?


Thd worst Crime I saw @ NYP was the 2004 Republican National Convention. Lol


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## v v (Jan 2, 2021)

daybeers said:


> Where is there crime in Penn Station, and why does the fact that a human being, just the same as you and me, have so little that they have to sleep inside a train station somehow make you uncomfortable? It's disgusting that you refer to the victims of countless systematic failures of society as disgusting.
> 
> Maybe some of the $1.6 billion that was spent on this project that you have previously objected to could be spent on actual housing, job centers, and low-income transportation options instead of lining the pockets of MTA executives, politicians, and contractors.
> 
> ...



Thank you for writing this post, it's a stunning description of where society could do better. I think all the issues you mention are similar elswhere in other countries, there is failure to one degree or another in most wealthy nations I've visited. 

Maybe adamj023 doesn't understand how many of the 'homeless' get to be homeless, it is not as obvious as many think and not easy to understand that many are genuine victims of family or society.

Well done to you.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jan 2, 2021)

John Santos said:


> I don't think much can be done about the physical layout of NYP, but having passed through it 20 or 30 times, I still find it incredible confusing. The lighting, signage, passageways and amenities (bathrooms, etc.) could be drastically improved.


NYP's layout is heavily obfuscated by the cement ceilings and the signage is needlessly convoluted. If you look at the original design you can see that basic orientation and path finding would have been much easier back when travel was the focus but the Madison Square Dungeon made it clear that the passenger rail component was a negative priority built to a price and schedule for minimal impact. MSG is privately owned but the City of New York can decline to renew the operating permit in 2023 if they're willing to start a fight with another petulant billionaire.






What If NYC Evicted Madison Square Garden? - Gothamist


Gothamist is a non-profit local newsroom, powered by WNYC.




gothamist.com







adamj023 said:


> I didn’t notice any homeless in the main train hall videos but they are all over the old part of the station sleeping on the floors and stairwells. It is disgusting[...]The homeless and crime problem needs to be rectified at Penn Station.


Homelessness and crime are often symptoms of other causes like drug addiction, insufficient mental health services, aggressively restrictive hiring practices, excessively regimented assistance programs, inability to cover rent or secure a loan on minimum wage, and a real estate market that caters to speculative investing and wealth management over housing our citizens. Which of these issues would you prefer to tackle first?


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## frequentflyer (Jan 2, 2021)

From a post replying to me over on Rail.net. 


The new station will be a fitting way for Amtrak travelers to enter and leave NYC. Majority going of NYC visitors coming by train will be on Amtrak. Some criticizing the new facility are a few NJT travelers who will not look up from their cell phones as they enter the Penn Station dungeon till they get to the tracks .Majority of NJT and other locals just want to get on the train and head to their suburban homes and care less about the station aesthetics.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 2, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> The station has a ton of homeless and a huge crime problem now.


What are you talking about? You need to read up a bit about Georgian London, or the East End of London in the Victorian period if you want tp know what a "huge crime problem" is like. 

I've never been bothered by homeless people in New York Penn Station, and I've never been a crime victim there. On the other hand, my car, parked outside my suburban home, has been broken into a couple of time, fortunately, they were to dumb to actually steal it, and I've has a lawn mover stolen from my shed in the back yard.


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## MARC Rider (Jan 2, 2021)

John Santos said:


> I don't think much can be done about the physical layout of NYP, but having passed through it 20 or 30 times, I still find it incredible confusing.
> 
> The lighting, signage, passageways and amenities (bathrooms, etc.) could be drastically improved. Pretty much stuck with the low ceilings and confusing multi-level layout unless they tear down MSG. A spot of paint and more comfortable waiting areas (especially for the 66/67) would improve things a lot.


I once found a map of the station, and the layout is actually pretty simple, being a rectangle with one cross passage. The fact that it's has 2 levels of gates above the platform can perhaps confuse some people. I still get a little disoriented because the track directions are east/west, whereas the major avenues above go north/south. Thus, when I'm underground, I find it hard to tell whether I'm heading for 31st st. or 34th st. or 8th Ave or 7th Ave. The Club Acela is by 31st and 8th Ave., the public restrooms in the Amtrak concourse are by 33rd and 8th Ave. I finally realized the the main Amtrak concourse is located right up by 8th Avenue., and you need to walk across the station past the NJT waiting area to get to 7th Ave.


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## flitcraft (Jan 3, 2021)

People who are experiencing homelessness can't easily be categorized into a few simple quick stereotypes. Low wage jobs today cannot provide a living wage that will prevent homelessness. Even minimum wage jobs are rapidly disappearing. We have no comprehensive safety net for people with mental illness and drug dependence. The run-up of property prices have made rents unaffordable. COVID had made traditional barracks-like shelters unsafe. Meanwhile, the number of people in my city depending on food banks for basic subsistence food has tripled since the pandemic started. The solutions for all of the sources of homelessness will require multiple strategies and resources. It's upsetting to see tent cities sprouting in city parks, but it's even more upsetting to have to live in them.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 3, 2021)

flitcraft said:


> People who are experiencing homelessness can't easily be categorized into a few simple quick stereotypes. Low wage jobs today cannot provide a living wage that will prevent homelessness. Even minimum wage jobs are rapidly disappearing. We have no comprehensive safety net for people with mental illness and drug dependence. The run-up of property prices have made rents unaffordable. COVID had made traditional barracks-like shelters unsafe. Meanwhile, the number of people in my city depending on food banks for basic subsistence food has tripled since the pandemic started. The solutions for all of the sources of homelessness will require multiple strategies and resources. It's upsetting to see tent cities sprouting in city parks, but it's even more upsetting to have to live in them.


My county recently purchased a vacant hotel on the outskirt of our biggest city to provide rooms to homeless during the night. I don’t know all the details but I think it’s geared to those who have, or looking for, low paying jobs but no place to sleep and get cleaned up.









'Swamp Hotel' bought by New Castle County for $19.5M to serve homeless people


The remote hotel near wetlands off I-95 south of Wilmington led to struggles attracting guests. The county snapped it up at auction using federal coronavirus relief money.




whyy.org


----------



## johnmiller (Jan 3, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Wow! This is firing up the impulse juices to get on the train and travel to New York... a railroader's paradise! I just cancelled my trip out east scheduled for January... because I want to survive the Covid crisis and live to travel some more... a lot more... on America's fine railroads. May this new station inspire the 'wheels of government' and Amtrak Joe to bring a new era of travel to the rails; with the added bonus opportunities for all of us to view magnificent and historic scenery while supporting environmental preservation.
> 
> Let us all keep our fingers crossed that 2021 marks a new beginning for Amtrak!



I'm personally waiting for: 1.) To have received both shots of the COVID vaccine, and 2.) For regular dining to return before I travel to NYP again.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 3, 2021)

johnmiller said:


> I'm personally waiting for: 1.) To have received both shots of the COVID vaccine, and 2.) For regular dining to return before I travel to NYP again.



And I would add to that list, 1] better standards for Amtrak Employees, 2] better standards for Amtrak customers, 3] new rolling stock with ventilation systems that work and windows that open a crack for fresh air in roomettes and bedrooms, and 4] the promise of clean, cleaner, cleanest restrooms for all to use.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jan 3, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> My county recently purchased a vacant hotel on the outskirt of our biggest city to provide rooms to homeless during the night. I don’t know all the details but I think it’s geared to those who have, or looking for, low paying jobs but no place to sleep and get cleaned up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The City of Austin has purchased 4 Motel/ Hotels for Homeless people and has been able to Rent Long Stay Rooms to house the ever increasing Homeless which includes many Families who have lost their jobs during the Pandemic.( Austin is heavily dependent on Service Industries that depend on Visitors that arent coming )

Our Food Bank has seen a tripling of the amount of Food they distribute weekly and a ten fold increase in eviction lawsuits filed even though they are once again temporarily stayed during the current surge of the COVID scurge!

Are we our brothers keeper? Most people supposedly think so, but some politicians and their wealthy owners dont seem to feel this way and for sure dont act that way!


----------



## 20th Century Rider (Jan 3, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> The City of Austin has purchased 4 Motel/ Hotels for Homeless people and has been able to Rent Long Stay Rooms to house the ever increasing Homeless which includes many Families who have lost their jobs during the Pandemic.( Austin is heavily dependent on Service Industries that depend on Visitors that arent coming )
> 
> Our Food Bank has seen a tripling of the amount of Food they distribute weekly and a ten fold increase in eviction lawsuits filed even though they are once again temporarily stayed during the current surge of the COVID scurge!
> 
> Are we our brothers keeper? Most people supposedly think so, but some politicians and their wealthy owners dont seem to feel this way and for sure dont act that way!



And those politicians seem to live in a dream land of immense mansions and golf courses to go into the horizon. For those of us who care about the wellbeing of each individual... and the wellbeing of the environment, there are service organizations we can participant in and/or join.

The Habitat for Humanity organization does more than just build homes... it works with city planners and zoning codes to allow for affordable housing for seniors and those down on their luck.

As a member of the interfaith council in this small town, sponsored by our local Habit for Humanity, we come together with ideas and actions that bring hope for the homeless and hope for the environment.


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## joelkfla (Jan 3, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> And I would add to that list, 1] better standards for Amtrak Employees, 2] better standards for Amtrak customers, 3] new rolling stock with ventilation systems that work and windows that open a crack for fresh air in roomettes and bedrooms, and 4] the promise of clean, cleaner, cleanest restrooms for all to use.


Gonna be a long wait.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 3, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Gonna be a long wait.



Let's see what congress does under the Biden administration... post pandemic of course.


----------



## railiner (Jan 3, 2021)

John Santos said:


> I don't think much can be done about the physical layout of NYP, but having passed through it 20 or 30 times, I still find it incredible confusing.
> 
> The lighting, signage, passageways and amenities (bathrooms, etc.) could be drastically improved. Pretty much stuck with the low ceilings and confusing multi-level layout unless they tear down MSG. A spot of paint and more comfortable waiting areas (especially for the 66/67) would improve things a lot.


One thing that building the MSG complex required, was a lot of added support columns that had to go down and thru the already narrow platforms. Believe me, you didn't know just how narrow those platforms can be, until you were operating one of those ancient electric Yale baggage trucks along them, especially squeezing between the stairway or elevator enclosures, and the platform edge...


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## Palmetto (Jan 3, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Let's see what congress does under the Biden administration... post pandemic of course.




If the Amtrak supervisors and managers would do what they're supposed to do--ensure good service by, among other things, monitoring employees--we wouldn't need politicians to micro manage.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jan 3, 2021)

Palmetto said:


> If the Amtrak supervisors and managers would do what they're supposed to do--ensure good service by, among other things, monitoring employees--we wouldn't need politicians to micro manage.



But 'if' doesn't answer the question or solve the problem. Important to note the competence level and optimistic outlook of Amtrak administrators, and adequate funding to support good service.


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## neroden (Jan 3, 2021)

railiner said:


> One thing that building the MSG complex required, was a lot of added support columns that had to go down and thru the already narrow platforms. Believe me, you didn't know just how narrow those platforms can be, until you were operating one of those ancient electric Yale baggage trucks along them, especially squeezing between the stairway or elevator enclosures, and the platform edge...


There is an interesting plan to narrow the columns. Apparently the structural steel part of the support columns, which provides the actual support, is smaller than the concrete wrapping, so the plan is to remove most of the concrete wrapping on the columns.


----------



## neroden (Jan 3, 2021)

I am really suspicious that this "closed from 1 AM to 5AM" thing will, in the end, not actually apply to the customers on #66/67. These trains take *checked baggage*. The entire baggage checking operation is being relocated to Moynihan. Does Amtrak want to maintain two checked baggage windows, and two checked baggage pickup operations, and so on and so forth? 

I would not be surprised if it ended up being "open only for passengers on #66/67".

There are a surprising number of places which are officially closed from 1 AM to 5 AM so that they can kick "unwanted" people out, but which are not actually properly closed: they don't lock the doors. I am highly suspicious that this is what will happen.


----------



## Palmetto (Jan 3, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> But 'if' doesn't answer the question or solve the problem. Important to note the competence level and optimistic outlook of Amtrak administrators, and adequate funding to support good service.




Easily solved. Change my "if" to "when".


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## adamj023 (Jan 3, 2021)

Lots of people have posted videos of the new train hall with more being posted on a constant basis, I will say the station is definitely better than it was but Grand Central is much nicer. Apparently some parts of the building still seem to be under construction as well as the parts by the tracks as well as the old section. Nothing really impressive nor do I plan to take any trips to see the new train hall in the near future, Amtrak riders definitely benefit with the new lounge and easier access to the tracks especially if they come in from the LIRR or the A C E subway lines. The NJ Transit side should benefit with more waiting space rather than just being confined to the NJ Transit section.


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## lordsigma (Jan 3, 2021)

neroden said:


> I am really suspicious that this "closed from 1 AM to 5AM" thing will, in the end, not actually apply to the customers on #66/67. These trains take *checked baggage*. The entire baggage checking operation is being relocated to Moynihan. Does Amtrak want to maintain two checked baggage windows, and two checked baggage pickup operations, and so on and so forth?
> 
> I would not be surprised if it ended up being "open only for passengers on #66/67".
> 
> There are a surprising number of places which are officially closed from 1 AM to 5 AM so that they can kick "unwanted" people out, but which are not actually properly closed: they don't lock the doors. I am highly suspicious that this is what will happen.


I read somewhere that the old baggage counter will be used between 1-5 and red caps will also be available over there..


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## zephyr17 (Jan 3, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> I read somewhere that the old baggage counter will be used between 1-5 and red caps will also be available over there..


I don't see a change in the previous baggage room hours at NYP of 5:00 am-9:45 pm. Don't see why they'd start opening the old baggage room when it hadn't been open at those times before Moynihan opened up.


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## lordsigma (Jan 3, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> I don't see a change in the previous baggage room hours at NYP of 5:00 am-9:45 pm. Don't see why they'd start opening the old baggage room when it hadn't been open at those times before Moynihan opened up.


How did they collect baggage on 66/67 before?


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## zephyr17 (Jan 3, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> How did they collect baggage on 66/67 before?


You probably had to wait until the office opened at 5:00 am.

I remember when the hours were extended to 9:45 pm so the Cardinal could handle checked bags. I don't think the NYP baggage room has been 24 hour ever, or in decades at least.


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## TEREB (Jan 4, 2021)

Pre COVID, we traveled the Silvers at least twice yearly. We’re snowbirds in reverse. Fl is our home. 
I am understanding that the Silvers will be leaving from the new station. But where do we enter? 8th Ave or 9th Ave.? Or both? Not those huge stairs, I hope.


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## dlagrua (Jan 4, 2021)

As folks who often traveled to Manhattan around the holidays and to regularly visit our son who live in Chelsea we use NJT (We live in NJ) and won't get to use Moynihan Station. Its good that Amtrak customers will have and it was badly needed. As soon as this pandemic panic is over; with select status we can check it out by using our guest passes for the new metro lounge.


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## joelkfla (Jan 4, 2021)

TEREB said:


> Pre COVID, we traveled the Silvers at least twice yearly. We’re snowbirds in reverse. Fl is our home.
> I am understanding that the Silvers will be leaving from the new station. But where do we enter? 8th Ave or 9th Ave.? Or both? Not those huge stairs, I hope.


8th Ave., opposite Penn Station. On both corners of 8th Ave., there are barrier-free entrances under big signs, "To Trains".


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## TEREB (Jan 4, 2021)

Thank you. When you’re used to one place, getting used to a new place can be a little scary. I’ve lived in Brooklyn for many decades and worked in Manhattan for a few decades. I always brag the NYC and Brooklyn are so easy to get around with public transportation. Now I have nightmares of getting lost in NYC/Brooklyn and trying to find public transportation back home. Started when we sold our home.


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## me_little_me (Jan 5, 2021)

TEREB said:


> Now I have nightmares of getting lost in NYC/Brooklyn and trying to find public transportation back home. Started when we sold our home.


That's why it's foolish to sell your home. Don't you know that most accidents occur withing 50 miles of home? Our friends said they protect themselves by living across the country from their home so they don't have to worry about accidents or getting lost. Their home is in the desert of Arizona and they live in one of the worst sections of Chicago. They said they feel so safe that way!


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## adamj023 (Jan 5, 2021)

Saw a video of some idiot obsess on Youtube about the payphones in Penn Station and checking them for dialtones. The new concourse appears to be devoid of payphones and has wifi installed. There should be a DAS system for wireless in the new Moynihan train hall which should work with sub mm wave band 5G and all the other bands that are used depending on your wireless provider. The older section of Penn Station other than the subway stations I would presume will also get their wireless communications upgraded and remaining payphones will get removed gradually during upgrades. Transit Wireless handled the upgrades at subway stations including the lines by Penn Station.


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 5, 2021)

Will the Empire Service trains be served from MTH? Which tracks in the station can they access?

Jb


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## adamj023 (Jan 5, 2021)

Penn Station and Moynihan train hall share the same tracks. It is not a separate station. You can use Amtrak on either section. There is no MTH Station code. All trains will be NYP.


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## west point (Jan 5, 2021)

Would like to see pictures of the stairs at the platforms.


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## railiner (Jan 5, 2021)

I don't care how many signs...(counted about a dozen from the photos?'), shouting it as "Moynihan Train Hall" are there....I will still refer to the whole complex as Penn Station....


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 5, 2021)

railiner said:


> I don't care how many signs...(counted about a dozen from the photos?'), shouting it as "Moynihan Train Hall" are there....I will still refer to the whole complex as Penn Station....


NYP it's always been and always will!


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## joelkfla (Jan 6, 2021)

railiner said:


> I don't care how many signs...(counted about a dozen from the photos?'), shouting it as "Moynihan Train Hall" are there....I will still refer to the whole complex as Penn Station....


In the photo I posted above:
2 banners above each entrance; 1 reads "MOYNIHAN TRAIN HALL", other reads "PENNSYLVANIA STATION".

I think Moynihan Train Hall really refers to the large open space, such as is called the Grand Hall in some classic stations.


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## jiml (Jan 6, 2021)

John Bobinyec said:


> Will the Empire Service trains be served from MTH? Which tracks in the station can they access?
> 
> Jb


I think I see where you're headed. With the Empire Connection only accessible from Tracks 1-7, shared with NJ Transit, will you still wind up in the older part of the station? The answer is about 4 minutes into this video:


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## adamj023 (Jan 7, 2021)

Amtrak uses tracks 5 to 16, so you need to use the west end concourse for track 5 to 6. Not sure if 7 and/or 8 have elevators in the train hall. Amtrak does not use tracks 1 to 4 which are used only by NJ Transit.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jan 7, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Amtrak uses tracks 5 to 16, so you need to use the west end concourse for track 5 to 6. Not sure if 7 and/or 8 have elevators in the train hall. Amtrak does not use tracks 1 to 4 which are used only by NJ Transit.


I presume if you are NJ Transit passenger and stil wanted to use it, you can access those tracks from here.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 8, 2021)

railiner said:


> I don't care how many signs...(counted about a dozen from the photos?'), shouting it as "Moynihan Train Hall" are there....I will still refer to the whole complex as Penn Station....


I think that is what the whole complex officially is. Amtrak itself calls "Moynihan Train Hall at Penn Station". So you are absolutely accurate.


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## railiner (Jan 8, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> I think that is what the whole complex officially is. Amtrak itself calls "Moynihan Train Hall at Penn Station". So you are absolutely accurate.


At one time, partisans were pushing to rename the entire complex for the Senator, but met too much resistance. However, they sure do try to make sure that everyone is aware of what the new hall is called...


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## cocojacoby (Jan 8, 2021)

TEREB said:


> Pre COVID, we traveled the Silvers at least twice yearly. We’re snowbirds in reverse. Fl is our home.
> I am understanding that the Silvers will be leaving from the new station. But where do we enter? 8th Ave or 9th Ave.? Or both? Not those huge stairs, I hope.



Just think you will be traveling in a brand new sleeper, eating in a brand new diner (lounge?) and leaving from a brand new Penn Station. Kind of incredible when you think about it.


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## me_little_me (Jan 8, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> Just think you will be traveling in a brand new sleeper, eating in a brand new diner (lounge?) and leaving from a brand new Penn Station. Kind of incredible when you think about it.


Well, at least two out of three. Since flex meals may not be considered "eating". I'd rather use the old station and old cars and have tho old, much nicer meals (but would far prefer the new cars and station along with those old meals). There is no reason to have the kind of "food" Amtrak is shoving at its patrons.


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## AFS1970 (Jan 8, 2021)

Sometimes renaming sticks, other times it doesn't. My local train station is technically the Mckinney Transportation Center, but nobody calls it that. Amtrak and Metro North both just call it Stamford. There is one big sign and one small sign with the name on it. Part of this is politics, the station was built with state grants by the city. Everyone said it wouldn't break even for 10 years. The city was supposed to manage it and take all revenue until that happened. Well it broke even in 2 years and the state took it over. The name was given to it by the city just before the takeover. The Senator it was named after had a fall from grace and most people, even in his own party, just want to forget him. So the name is there but no one uses it.


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## amtrakpass (Jan 8, 2021)

I was able to stop by and check out the new train hall on Wednesday. I thought it looked very nice and feel like the large track number signs will help people unfamiliar with the station find their track easier than the old boarding area. One thing I missed is a large central solari or electronic equivalent departure board so you had to look at smaller ones around the walls. They were around but not as eye catching. The LIRR did have a relatively large board there on the side. I hope Amtrak puts a larger central one in the Hall at some point.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 8, 2021)

amtrakpass said:


> I was able to stop by and check out the new train hall on Wednesday. I thought it looked very nice and feel like the large track number signs will help people unfamiliar with the station find their track easier than the old boarding area. One thing I missed is a large central solari or electronic equivalent departure board so you had to look at smaller ones around the walls. They were around but not as eye catching. The LIRR did have a relatively large board there on the side. I hope Amtrak puts a larger central one in the Hall at some point.



It’s amazing to me that Amtrak leaves solari boards up all the way until the 2000’s when they become cool again in that vintage retro way.... and then they take them down to put up computer screens that already look dated and from the 90’s windows days. 

If you’ve ever been to a Starbucks roastery, they have solari boards that change to show which single origin coffees are currently brewing. It’s the cool and hip thing that the “millennials” want.... oh wait sorry, millennials want microwaved food according to Amtrak.


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## joelkfla (Jan 8, 2021)

amtrakpass said:


> I was able to stop by and check out the new train hall on Wednesday. I thought it looked very nice and feel like the large track number signs will help people unfamiliar with the station find their track easier than the old boarding area. One thing I missed is a large central solari or electronic equivalent departure board so you had to look at smaller ones around the walls. They were around but not as eye catching. The LIRR did have a relatively large board there on the side. I hope Amtrak puts a larger central one in the Hall at some point.


If they wanted to, it would probably be relatively easy to put up a departures board on some of those giant screens that are currently displaying "scenic NY state" animations. Though I'm not convinced it's necessary.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 8, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Though I'm not convinced it's necessary.



Well I’m not sure any departure signs are ever necessary... but they are certainly convenient and help reduce confusion.


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## amtrakpass (Jan 8, 2021)

I like how Grand Central has the various lines next departures above where the ticket windows are or were anyway. To me the primary purpose is to make it super easy to find your track/train on short notice since they are usually going to be announced very close to departure at NYP. And the audio announcements echo a bit and are a little hard to understand as they would be in any large space. So a central board on one of those big screens now displaying advertising would be helpful in my opinion. If you are there way ahead of time or use the waiting area it is no big deal, just thinking of the usual last minute standing crowd as is usual for Amtrak in normal times in NY.


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## amtrakpass (Jan 8, 2021)

Also there was one other question regarding the entrances. You don't need to go up the stairs. That is still the post office at present. There are entrances both to the right and left of the those stairs. For example at the corner of 33rd and 8th ave.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 8, 2021)

amtrakpass said:


> Also there was one other question regarding the entrances. You don't need to go up the stairs. That is still the post office at present. There are entrances both to the right and left of the those stairs. For example at the corner of 33rd and 8th ave.



I was wondering if the post office was still there! Good to know.


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## me_little_me (Jan 9, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I was wondering if the post office was still there! Good to know.


Yes, and they still have on display the ballots from the 1836 elections that were never delivered. That's because the 1832 ballots are still being processed and they don't want them to get mixed up.


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## joelkfla (Jan 9, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well I’m not sure any departure signs are ever necessary... but they are certainly convenient and help reduce confusion.


I was thinking that as long as there are departure boards at the entrances (which there are) and where people congregate (waiting room, lounge, dining hall), and by the ticket offices and info desks, there's not really a need for a central one in the Hall. I think people in the Hall will generally be transiting across it, not hanging out.

But given Amtrak's proclivity for assigning tracks at the last minute, maybe I'm wrong.


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## PVD (Jan 9, 2021)

The USPS retail operation is likely to remain for some time, the processing operations are long gone, which is why so much space was available to redevelop and repurpose.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 9, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> But given Amtrak's proclivity for assigning tracks at the last minute, maybe I'm wrong.


Supposedly it's done because of time constraints and to keep people off the platforms but I honestly can't think of another major transport hub I've ever seen doing that.


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## daybeers (Jan 9, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Supposedly it's done because of time constraints and to keep people off the platforms but I honestly can't think of another major transport hub I've ever seen doing that.


I agree, but I also can't think of another major transport hub that has such narrow platforms as NYP. They have such low capacity that only one train at a time per platform can be _either_ boarding or deboarding. Yes some of it is padding time, but the narrow platforms is most of the reason why Northeast Regionals have a 15 minute layover in NYP. I am interested in this plan to narrow the columns on the platforms:


neroden said:


> There is an interesting plan to narrow the columns. Apparently the structural steel part of the support columns, which provides the actual support, is smaller than the concrete wrapping, so the plan is to remove most of the concrete wrapping on the columns.


----------



## jiml (Jan 9, 2021)

AFS1970 said:


> Sometimes renaming sticks, other times it doesn't.


That's a very valid statement. Look no further than local sports stadiums that get renamed every few years, but are still known by the name they were built with.

Penn Station will forever be Penn Station IMHO.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 9, 2021)

daybeers said:


> I agree, but I also can't think of another major transport hub that has such narrow platforms as NYP. They have such low capacity that only one train at a time per platform can be _either_ boarding or deboarding. Yes some of it is padding time, but the narrow platforms is most of the reason why Northeast Regionals have a 15 minute layover in NYP. I am interested in this plan to narrow the columns on the platforms:



Imagine how much they could shorten the dwell time if they could have one platform for detraining passengers and the platform on the opposite side for boarding passengers. 

Sure it would be expensive but so is constant tentsion and how much time does that actually save them?


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## John Santos (Jan 9, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Imagine how much they could shorten the dwell time if they could have one platform for detraining passengers and the platform on the opposite side for boarding passengers.
> 
> Sure it would be expensive but so is constant tentsion and how much time does that actually save them?


You mean like the Park Street Under subway station in Boston? (There are two tracks and 3 platforms, the trains on both tracks are accessible from the center platform and the doors on both sides of every train open there.) With an added rule that the platform on the left (for example) or the odd-numbered platform is for boarding and the one on the right (or even numbered platform) is for exiting the train?

No one would ever be able to keep track of which is which for any given train, considering that some trains are moving East (towards Boston) and some are moving West (towards New Jersey) and sometimes an eastbound train has to use a track most commonly used by westbound trains and vice versa.

Of course this is just the minor problem. The huge problem is they would have to shut down and remove half of the tracks and install new platforms where those tracks are. They could get about a third of the lost capacity back by ripping out about half the remaining platforms and install new tracks where they are (reducing the total number of tracks by at least a third), or to keep the same number of tracks, widen the station and the tunnels under Manhattan by at least 50%. Greatly reducing capacity for decades during construction and hoping everything between 30th St and 34th St doesn't collapse into a giant pit while they're building it. They would have to move the pillars supporting millions of tons of skyscrapers that would block the new tracks. Got a couple of trillion bucks burning a hole in your pocket? It would be more useful to build a new 4-track tunnel under the Hudson and electrify every LD route in the country. Also buy enough equipment to run every LD train 3 times a day (every 8 hours), with hourly service on every corridor. Hey, we can all dream...


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 9, 2021)

John Santos said:


> You mean like the Park Street Under subway station in Boston? (There are two tracks and 3 platforms, the trains on both tracks are accessible from the center platform and the doors on both sides of every train open there.) With an added rule that the platform on the left (for example) or the odd-numbered platform is for boarding and the one on the right (or even numbered platform) is for exiting the train?
> 
> No one would ever be able to keep track of which is which for any given train, considering that some trains are moving East (towards Boston) and some are moving West (towards New Jersey) and sometimes an eastbound train has to use a track most commonly used by westbound trains and vice versa.
> 
> Of course this is just the minor problem. The huge problem is they would have to shut down and remove half of the tracks and install new platforms where those tracks are. They could get about a third of the lost capacity back by ripping out about half the remaining platforms and install new tracks where they are (reducing the total number of tracks by at least a third), or to keep the same number of tracks, widen the station and the tunnels under Manhattan by at least 50%. Greatly reducing capacity for decades during construction and hoping everything between 30th St and 34th St doesn't collapse into a giant pit while they're building it. They would have to move the pillars supporting millions of tons of skyscrapers that would block the new tracks. Got a couple of trillion bucks burning a hole in your pocket? It would be more useful to build a new 4-track tunnel under the Hudson and electrify every LD route in the country. Also buy enough equipment to run every LD train 3 times a day (every 8 hours), with hourly service on every corridor. Hey, we can all dream...



Well nobody would have to keep track of it, the exiting passengers would exit from one side, and after they had exited the conductor would open the doors on the opposite side to allow the passengers already on the platform the chance to board.

It wasn’t an overly realistic suggestion... just a “yes and” blue sky idea.

Again.. how much time does constant tension catenary save? Everything costs money!


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## John Santos (Jan 9, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well nobody would have to keep track of it, the exiting passengers would exit from one side, and after they had exited the conductor would open the doors on the opposite side to allow the passengers already on the platform the chance to board.
> 
> It wasn’t an overly realistic suggestion... just a “yes and” blue sky idea.
> 
> Again.. how much time does constant tension catenary save? Everything costs money!


You liked my reply so you must have realized my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek  The two platform arrangement would be a good idea in a location with plenty of room and enough passengers to justify it.

I think constant tension allows much higher speed without arcing which is why they do it, but my only "personal" knowledge is my great grandfather who was a broom man* for a small city trolley about 120 years ago.

[*] I think that's what his job was called, but I couldn't find an online reference. He rode at the back of the streetcar, collected fares and reconnected the trolley pole ("broom") to the wire whenever needed, which was often.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 9, 2021)

John Santos said:


> You liked my reply so you must have realized my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek  The two platform arrangement would be a good idea in a location with plenty of room and enough passengers to justify it.
> 
> I think constant tension allows much higher speed without arcing which is why they do it, but my only "personal" knowledge is my great grandfather who was a broom man* for a small city trolley about 120 years ago.
> 
> [*] I think that's what his job was called, but I couldn't find an online reference. He rode at the back of the streetcar, collected fares and reconnected the trolley pole ("broom") to the wire whenever needed, which was often.



That would have been the conductor! The conductor rode the back and the motorman was in the front... and actually that goes right back to the dual platforms. Passengers would enter and pay at the rear of the car, and passengers would exit at the front by the motorman! 

I ran a trolley for a summer at a tourist railroad... you learn exactly where you can go what speed to keep the pole on the wire! Ha.


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## jis (Jan 10, 2021)

Apparently at least one life was lost in the pursuit of the Moynihan Train Hall...









Moynihan Train Hall czar killed himself as pressure mounted for Cuomo’s jewel project


In the days before he hanged himself, it was the clock that kept Michael Evans up at night. President of the public-private consortium, Moynihan Station Development Corp., Evans, 40, had already sp…




nypost.com


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## railiner (Jan 10, 2021)

LIRR's Track


jis said:


> Apparently at least one life was lost in the pursuit of the Moynihan Train Hall...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a waste... perhaps they should name that clock for him?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 11, 2021)

jis said:


> Apparently at least one life was lost in the pursuit of the Moynihan Train Hall...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



While that’s certainly sad, it sounds like he suffered from paranoia in both his work and personal life. I can’t imagine any major construction job doesn’t come with pressure and deadlines, that’s part of the business.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 11, 2021)

daybeers said:


> Yes some of it is padding time, but the narrow platforms is most of the reason why Northeast Regionals have a 15 minute layover in NYP. I am interested in this plan to narrow the columns on the platforms:


I agree that the platforms would be far more functional if they had not been turned into a (de)basement for MSG. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> Again.. how much time does constant tension catenary save? Everything costs money!


How much of a speed benefit did they actually get out of that? I realize that real HSR on straight track needs constant tension but on a relatively slow and meandering route like the NEC maybe it doesn't matter so much. I guess the main benefit is that it replaces rapidly deteriorating infrastructure from the 1950's? 



jis said:


> Apparently at least one life was lost in the pursuit of the Moynihan Train Hall.


Breaking News: New York Post writes nine month old story to bash governor and stain public works project.


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## jis (Jan 11, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> How much of a speed benefit did they actually get out of that? I realize that real HSR on straight track needs constant tension but on a relatively slow and meandering route like the NEC maybe it doesn't matter so much. I guess the main benefit is that it replaces rapidly deteriorating infrastructure from the 1950's?


Metro North, NYSDOT and ConnDOT have converted the Metro North segment of the NEC to all Constant Tension. Basically, North (East) of New York it is Constant Tension all the way to Boston, except for NYP to what used to be CP Shell..

Meanwhile there has been endless discussions and failures to act to update the catenary south of New York, while people spend lots of money studying why one should not convert the catenary to world standard, instead of figuring out how to achieve that cost effectively. What transpired with the $450 Million given to Amtrak for the 16 miles of railroad and how it was wasted and frittered away is a monument to why nothing good will really happen on the NEC, without it costing twice or more of what it would cost almost anywhere else, unless Amtrak is able to change its ways. Well, among other misuse, at least a senior Engineer on the project managed to get his book published on our backs, using money from the funds to hire a secretary whose only job apparently was editing the manuscript for his book, while he proceeded to mismanage the project into ground.



> Breaking News: New York Post writes nine month old story to bash governor and stain public works project.


NY Post's attempt to somehow tie it into the Governor stretches credulity beyond the breaking point, which is not unusual for that outfit.



crescent-zephyr said:


> While that’s certainly sad, it sounds like he suffered from paranoia in both his work and personal life. I can’t imagine any major construction job doesn’t come with pressure and deadlines, that’s part of the business.


Clearly he had other issues.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 11, 2021)

jis said:


> Meanwhile there has been endless discussions and failures to act to update the catenary south of New York, while people spend lots of money studying why one should not convert the catenary to world standard, instead of figuring out how to achieve that cost effectively.


This is an excellent point.

A big part of what made China's HSR revolution practical was the creation of high volume building methods that leveraged economies of scale rather than bespoke solutions. This is also part of the story that often gets lost in discussions about the potential benefits of a company like The Boring Company achieving commercial success. Although forever married to hyperloop theory the main benefit would be establishing a more standardized and simpified approach to volume tunneling that could keep staff and hardware operating on a year round schedule.

Or at least that is my understanding.


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## adamj023 (Jan 13, 2021)

Which tracks will be accessible from the theatre in MSG which will be turned into another train hall? Looks like project will be funded in the next administration.


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## joelkfla (Jan 13, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Which tracks will be accessible from the theatre in MSG which will be turned into another train hall? Looks like project will be funded in the next administration.


Got a link?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 14, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Got a link?


I think he's talking about the Empire Station Complex master plan? If approved and completed it would be quite extensive, not just in terms new and expanded tracks but also redevelopment above ground as well.


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## adamj023 (Jan 14, 2021)

No its a new concourse by where the MSG theatre is now with a brand new entrance. It should be accessible to most of the tracks, don’t know if all. It is located at MSG right now where the Theatre is and is part of the MSG structure itself. It makes sense as more people use the trains than use the theatre which can be built elsewhere for the future. The Empire Station complex is not related to this.



https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/governor.ny.gov/files/thumbnails/image/MSGPennStationExterior_Rendering_original.jpg



This is the outside of it.

This is what it looks like now:









Hulu Theater - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org










Photos: Governor Cuomo's Proposal to Transform Penn Station and Farley Post Office Building Into a World-Class Transportation Hub


Governor Cuomo announces a proposal to transform Penn Station and the historic James A. Farley Post Office into a world-class transportation hub.




www.governor.ny.gov


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## railiner (Jan 14, 2021)

So now it's the "Hulu Theater"? What used to be the "Paramount Theater"? When built, it was called the "Felt Forum"....


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## joelkfla (Jan 14, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> No its a new concourse by where the MSG theatre is now with a brand new entrance. It should be accessible to most of the tracks, don’t know if all. It is located at MSG right now where the Theatre is and is part of the MSG structure itself. It makes sense as more people use the trains than use the theatre which can be built elsewhere for the future. The Empire Station complex is not related to this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But that was 5 years ago, and it was just one of "several options." 

Searching "Penn Station Hulu Theater", the only more recent reference I could find was that Cuomo mentioned it in a Jan. 2020 luncheon to business leaders. De Blasio said he knew nothing about it. 

I think it's just a Cuomo pipe dream. From a practical standpoint, it seems rather redundant to Moynihan.


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## PVD (Jan 14, 2021)

With MSG controlling both Radio City Music Hall (6000 seats) and the Beacon Theater (just under 3000), their ability to schedule shows that don't need an arena size venue are pretty good. The Theater (5600) is less important than it used to be. Not a bad place at all, way better than the original "Felt Forum" that it replaced, that was pretty much of a dump, and no where near as suitable for a show.


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## adamj023 (Jan 15, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> But that was 5 years ago, and it was just one of "several options."
> 
> Searching "Penn Station Hulu Theater", the only more recent reference I could find was that Cuomo mentioned it in a Jan. 2020 luncheon to business leaders. De Blasio said he knew nothing about it.
> 
> I think it's just a Cuomo pipe dream. From a practical standpoint, it seems rather redundant to Moynihan.



Not a pipe dream. Cuomo already gave his plans in his recent speech on infrastructure in the last speech which will be approved. The incoming administration will sign on to the Gateway project as well as others including this. Penn Station was at overcapacity for years. I just disagree with the government’s approach and taxation.





__





Cuomo's $306 Billion Infrastructure Plan: Remake Midtown - Gothamist


Gothamist is a non-profit local newsroom, powered by WNYC.




gothamist.com





The project is mentioned on that page.


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## west point (Jan 15, 2021)

Cuomo's plan for the Penn south expansion was just announced. I have hoped it would have started sooner. However for starters it will only benefit NJ Transit. The proposed wider platforms will also be longer so maybe NJ Transit will operate longer trains. Use by Amtrak is very limited until the proposed East river tunnels 5 and 6 re built. Stub end tracks just do not help Amtrak with almost all its trains going either thru to Bos or SSY.


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## PVD (Jan 16, 2021)

They are helped indirectly, if there are added tracks for NJT, trains that currently use tracks that do go through can relocate. Could probably serve some Keystones. I am curious if the new tracks would have access to the Empire Connection, this would allow their use by MNRR at some point in the (probably distant) future.


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## railiner (Jan 16, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think he's talking about the Empire Station Complex master plan? If approved and completed it would be quite extensive, not just in terms new and expanded tracks but also redevelopment above ground as well.


Funny...they are proposing a pedestrian corridor linking the station with the Herald Square subway/PATH station....
For many years such a passageway existed, utilizing private property thru the former Gimbels Dept. Store basement along 33rd Street, until it became unusable due to homeless encroachment, and was sealed off...


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## adamj023 (Jan 16, 2021)

My own belief is that the railroads should be privatized and private equity should dictate how funds are spent. Government control and increasing taxation is the wrong approach. I am all for fare increases, and more ways to monetize the system. Plenty of people now pay taxes which go into these projects which they do not use.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> My own belief is that the railroads should be privatized and private equity should dictate how funds are spent. Government control and increasing taxation is the wrong approach. I am all for fare increases, and more ways to monetize the system. Plenty of people now pay taxes which go into these projects which they do not use.



You can believe that all you want, but it’s not how this country operates any other transit infrastructure including airports, sea ports, interstates, state highways, county roads, etc.


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## IndyLions (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> My own belief is that the railroads should be privatized and private equity should dictate how funds are spent. Government control and increasing taxation is the wrong approach. I am all for fare increases, and more ways to monetize the system. Plenty of people now pay taxes which go into these projects which they do not use.


And what happens during the first crisis - which will undoubtedly raise its ugly head within 7-10 years? Why, the private corporation shuts down of course. No sense in operating the transportation network when it is inconvenient. 

Nobody says governments are efficient - far from it. But transportation is INFRASTRUCTURE - and other than fulfilling government contracts - private businesses have no place in infrastructure.


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## adamj023 (Jan 16, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You can believe that all you want, but it’s not how this country operates any other transit infrastructure including airports, sea ports, interstates, state highways, county roads, etc.


There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.


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## jis (Jan 16, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Breaking News: New York Post writes nine month old story to bash governor and stain public works project.


Apparently NY Times is catching the same bus ... er train ...  









He Brought Moynihan Train Hall to Life, but Didn’t Live to See It (Published 2021)


Many credit Michael Evans with turning the vision for the hall at Penn Station into a reality. Before it opened, he took his own life.




www.nytimes.com


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.



So the railroads should be treated differently than all other forms of transportation?


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## joelkfla (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.


Like America's health care industry? A fine example of a public service being efficiently provided by customer-focused free-market organizations at reasonable cost with no corruption.


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## railiner (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.


If Amtrak, and state agencies had not taken over passenger trains from private railroads, there would no longer be any passenger trains...is that what you want?

As for not using government provided services which you pay for thru taxes...that is the price of living in a civilized society.
I have no children, but do not at all mind paying school taxes, among other taxes, that I don't directly benefit from...


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## tricia (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.



And private enterprise is somehow immune to corruption? 

And when exactly was this mythical time when "free market capitalism" existed without any governmental structure to prop it up? Certainly NEVER where railroads are concerned.


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## PVD (Jan 16, 2021)

When a government employee takes a payoff or a favor from someone or some company, why is that talked about as government corruption when one side of the act is private enterprise? Railroads got out of the passenger business because they didn't make money, but the need for the service was still there. Amtrak took over because private enterprise was failing in that sector and if they didn't the service would disappear.


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## me_little_me (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> My own belief is that the railroads should be privatized and private equity should dictate how funds are spent. Government control and increasing taxation is the wrong approach. I am all for fare increases, and more ways to monetize the system. Plenty of people now pay taxes which go into these projects which they do not use.


Plenty of people pay taxes for other things which they do not use or are ineligible to use. We only oppose taxes if WE don't use or want what they pay for. Doesn't matter if it is defense, roads, airports, trains, social services, etc.


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## John Santos (Jan 16, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.


There's no corruption in private business? Wow, that's wonderful news! /sarcasm


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## PaTrainFan (Jan 16, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Plenty of people pay taxes for other things which they do not use or are ineligible to use. We only oppose taxes if WE don't use or want what they pay for. Doesn't matter if it is defense, roads, airports, trains, social services, etc.



I have never been to Yellowstone National Park but am fine if my taxes support it. I have never driven on I-5, but undoubtedly my tax dollars help build it, maintain it and improve it. There are countless examples of this.


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## adamj023 (Jan 17, 2021)

Looks like Penn Station area will be under construction for years to come with workers all around, ie still in Moynihan train hall, west end concourse and other parts of Penn Station inside and out. Homeless are around as well as other undesirables who are hurting society, many with prior criminal histories.


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## tricia (Jan 17, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> .... Homeless are around as well as other undesirables who are hurting society, many with prior criminal histories.



"Homeless" is not equivalent to "other undesirables," which in any case is both mean-spirited and completely subjective.

"who are hurting society" is another mean-spirited and completely subjective opinion.

"many with prior criminal histories" Since you present this without any evidence whatsoever, should I assume you're just making this up to fit your malign world view?

In a country where the minimum wage hasn't kept pace with inflation in decades, during which time wealth has hugely concentrated at the top and options for decent work dwindled, OF COURSE you're going to see evidence of dire poverty in and around public places like Penn Station. The chief "undesirable" in play here is an economy that discards so many of us.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 17, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Looks like Penn Station area will be under construction for years to come with workers all around, ie still in Moynihan train hall, west end concourse and other parts of Penn Station inside and out. Homeless are around as well as other undesirables who are hurting society, many with prior criminal histories.



My apologies if I missed this in another post but have you introduced yourself at all? Do you live in New York? Do you frequently ride Amtrak? 

The only posts I’ve seen from you are quite negative toward train stations and rail development so I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from and why you are here.


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## lordsigma (Jan 17, 2021)

Was able to visit the train hall today as I am out of Covid isolation. Very nice indeed. Sure it’s not old Penn Station or Grand Central but it’s quite an improvement and the lounge is light years better than the old one and I practically had the place to myself and it looks like there will be some food and beverage options once NYC reopens indoor dining. It does seem so far very few are actually using the train hall (just about everyone I saw in there seemed to be just exploring and taking photos - few actual rail passengers) and the vast majority of passengers are still using the NJT/Amtrak concourse across the street. May take time for that to change (if it ever does). One challenge the train hall will have in getting people to use it is getting retail and food venues open - which seems doubtful in the next few months with Covid. There is not a single one yet open - which makes the concourses across the street more attractive from an amenities perspective. But overtime when there’s more to offer over there I think they’ll attract more passengers which will allow spreading people out between two different options I guess.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 17, 2021)

It Would be amazing if they could get a legit coffee shop in there.

NY pizza supreme is right across the street, certainly one of the best NY pizza shops.


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## lordsigma (Jan 17, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It Would be amazing if they could get a legit coffee shop in there.
> 
> NY pizza supreme is right across the street, certainly one of the best NY pizza shops.


I think eventually there’s supposed to be a Starbucks right there on the lower level and then a food hall somewhere and retail on the mezzanine. And of course as I said the lounge will eventually have some sort of f&b. Will find out what it is.


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## PVD (Jan 17, 2021)

The Starbucks is there and was featured in the press opening, with fake workers behind the counter. It will open in the future. The key to Starbucks is to find which brews you like, some are good (to me) some aren't, it is a matter of individual taste....


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## lordsigma (Jan 17, 2021)

One thing I did find out today that I could not tell from photos I had seen is that you can access the Farley Post Office from the mezzanine level of the train hall. The historic beaux-arts post office lobby has some nice architecture but unfortunately at the moment is in the middle of a major rehab - scaffolding everywhere so there isn't much to see in there.


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## adamj023 (Jan 18, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> One thing I did find out today that I could not tell from photos I had seen is that you can access the Farley Post Office from the mezzanine level of the train hall. The historic beaux-arts post office lobby has some nice architecture but unfortunately at the moment is in the middle of a major rehab - scaffolding everywhere so there isn't much to see in there.



Not sure what work they are doing. Post office was in good shape before the scaffolding was put in and the ceiling was impressive. Perhaps they are doing some a/c, or electrical or communications modernization or passageway reconfiguration.


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## railiner (Jan 18, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> One thing I did find out today that I could not tell from photos I had seen is that you can access the Farley Post Office from the mezzanine level of the train hall. The historic beaux-arts post office lobby has some nice architecture but unfortunately at the moment is in the middle of a major rehab - scaffolding everywhere so there isn't much to see in there.


That's interesting...
When I worked at Penn Station, I had a P O Box there. It was more convenient for me, than having one at my then home P O in Queens. Simply came up the subway exit closest to it to get my mail. Now, it would be even more convenient. Are there accesses from both 31st, and 33rd Street sides?


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## lordsigma (Jan 18, 2021)

railiner said:


> That's interesting...
> When I worked at Penn Station, I had a P O Box there. It was more convenient for me, than having one at my then home P O in Queens. Simply came up the subway exit closest to it to get my mail. Now, it would be even more convenient. Are there accesses from both 31st, and 33rd Street sides?



Yes side entrances from both streets and also a large entrance on 9th Ave. on 8th Ave you can either use the two corner entrances that they opened up previously for the west end concourse or you can enter the post office up the stairs and there’s a corridor on the north side that leads to the train hall mezzanine.


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## lordsigma (Jan 18, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> Not sure what work they are doing. Post office was in good shape before the scaffolding was put in and the ceiling was impressive. Perhaps they are doing some a/c, or electrical or communications modernization or passageway reconfiguration.


They might be doing ceiling restoration the entire ceiling was covered.


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## adamj023 (Jan 18, 2021)

Not necessarily. They could be protecting the ceiling from damage. We will see when the work is finished. Going through the old section of Penn is now more depressing due to the steel beams placed on the already narrow ceiling with poor lighting. Work is still ongoing there. Moynihan station is the start. East side access will move lots of traffic out of Penn station once its complete as well.


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## daybeers (Jan 18, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> My apologies if I missed this in another post but have you introduced yourself at all? Do you live in New York? Do you frequently ride Amtrak?
> 
> The only posts I’ve seen from you are quite negative toward train stations and rail development so I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from and why you are here.


@adamj023
Okay so you're just going to continue being classist and needlessly and rudely judgemental without an explanation and comment on the new hall like you haven't said very insulting things several times on this site? Cool; sounds like you're just a jerk. When someone calls you on your wild claims about how more privatization will somehow make the U.S. rail system better or how your insulting remarks about homelessness and crime are just plain incorrect, if you really believed in what you said, maybe you should respond and stand by your words instead of cowering and not saying anything about it until you make another ridiculous comment.


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## MrNews (Jan 18, 2021)

Don't know if everyone has seen this interesting New Yorker piece about the Moynihan Hall... You might have to be a New Yorker subscriber, but non-subscribers can usually read 3 articles for free each month.








The Moynihan Train Hall’s Glorious Arrival


The new transit hub redeems the destruction of the original Penn Station.




www.newyorker.com





Uninteresting side-note: during the course of my radio news career, I actually met D. P. Moynihan ~1989. It was really tough to get a usable sound-bite from him, as he spoke in paragraphs and chapters...


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## railiner (Jan 18, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Yes side entrances from both streets and also a large entrance on 9th Ave. on 8th Ave you can either use the two corner entrances that they opened up previously for the west end concourse or you can enter the post office up the stairs and there’s a corridor on the north side that leads to the train hall mezzanine.


OK...so access from inside the post office directly to the train hall is on the 33rd Street side...


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 18, 2021)

adamj023 said:


> There is a lot of corruption inside the government process leading to higher costs and expenses. Railroads used to be private entities which the government assumed control of. I am in favor of free marker capitalism for railroads which we had before Amtrak took it over.


I've yet to see any government corruption that failed to include a private business or citizen as the beneficiary. We just suffered through four years of _The Swamp Family Robinson_ and you're still singing this old tune?



adamj023 said:


> Homeless are around as well as other undesirables who are hurting society, many with prior criminal histories.


Hard to imagine something less desirable than a broken record with an agenda.


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## PVD (Jan 18, 2021)

The LIRR Concourse Project - Coming Soon (mta.info) 
LIRR corridor is undergoing a complete reconfiguration. The steel beams have a very important purpose.


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## me_little_me (Jan 18, 2021)

MrNews said:


> Don't know if everyone has seen this interesting New Yorker piece about the Moynihan Hall... You might have to be a New Yorker subscriber, but non-subscribers can usually read 3 articles for free each month.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Note, just use a VPN and clear your cookies and the 3 article limit restarts.

It's one thing to make money off ads. That's always been the case and ads can be and are useful to me.

As to requiring a subscription to see more than 3 articles a month, that's grossly overpriced. For those out of town who only want to see information from different media on a single subject, having to subscribe to each of them is not worth it.

But if you subscribe, the privacy policy for every one I have checked is that your personal information and what you view on the site (thus revealing a lot about yourself) is outrageous considering you are paying for the service with a subscription.

I tried to subscribe to a local newspaper but they wouldn't tell me what it costs until I provided my personal information. So now I read it without paying. I wrote to the owner about that but he didn't bother to reply. I feel no obligation to him if he is more interested in selling my personal information as someone interested in subscribing, even if I decide not to and he gets no subscription money from me. I feel sorry for the workers but when I pay, I expect privacy. So I pay for an email service that guarantees privacy over Google or Yahoo that steals everything and anything including the content of any messages sent or received but gives me "free" email.

Sorry for the topic diversion.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 19, 2021)

Gemuser said:


> I am saying that, IMHO, nobody in USA, commerically, makes legit coffee, it all tastes worse than in Japan, Australia, New Zealand & most of Europe.


Starbucks is huge in Japan and prior to that most coffee was Nescafe rather than drip. Some European countries brew great coffee while others are satisfied with bitter brown swill. I've never seen anything from Australia or New Zealand and can't comment on boutique products for niche interests but glad to hear you're happy with them.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 19, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> It's one thing to make money off ads. That's always been the case and ads can be and are useful to me. As to requiring a subscription to see more than 3 articles a month, that's grossly overpriced.


This is some of the most confusing logic I've ever tried to decipher. How many free articles do you need per month before the subscription you refuse to buy is no longer overpriced?


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## neroden (Jan 22, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> This is some of the most confusing logic I've ever tried to decipher. How many free articles do you need per month before the subscription you refuse to buy is no longer overpriced?


Enough to tell whether the newspaper is actually decent, I think. Which takes more than three articles. The Guardian probably has the best business model: owned by a not-for-profit, free to everyone, but encourages Patrons.


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## neroden (Jan 22, 2021)

PVD said:


> The LIRR Concourse Project - Coming Soon (mta.info)
> LIRR corridor is undergoing a complete reconfiguration. The steel beams have a very important purpose.


It seems like the work renovating the ceiling is going to be done under very interesting conditions by workers standing on decking over those steel beams.


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## PVD (Jan 22, 2021)

Any alternatives would have involved either closing the area to the public completely, or opening and closing areas and moving barriers and other safety measures on a constant basis which would make the project take twice as long and create higher risks of injury.


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## adamj023 (Jan 22, 2021)

Skanska got funding approved on January 8th, 2021 for the Penn Station renovation project so the work should be accelerating now. Should look nicer when more work is completed. 

The A uptown subway entrance at Penn Station was under renovation last I saw as well. Don’t know which contractor is doing that work.


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## nferr (Jan 28, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Was able to visit the train hall today as I am out of Covid isolation. Very nice indeed. Sure it’s not old Penn Station or Grand Central but it’s quite an improvement and the lounge is light years better than the old one and I practically had the place to myself and it looks like there will be some food and beverage options once NYC reopens indoor dining. It does seem so far very few are actually using the train hall (just about everyone I saw in there seemed to be just exploring and taking photos - few actual rail passengers) and the vast majority of passengers are still using the NJT/Amtrak concourse across the street. May take time for that to change (if it ever does). One challenge the train hall will have in getting people to use it is getting retail and food venues open - which seems doubtful in the next few months with Covid. There is not a single one yet open - which makes the concourses across the street more attractive from an amenities perspective. But overtime when there’s more to offer over there I think they’ll attract more passengers which will allow spreading people out between two different options I guess.



I'm pretty sure most commuters will just enter/exit through the old Penn Station concourse. They're just rushing through the station to get on/off their train and get to the subway or office. The Moynihan Hall will be mostly used by Amtrak passengers since most of those are spending more time in the station. Also eventually when nice shops/eating options open up it will be visited by tourists and New Yorkers as a a bit of a destination. Could be wrong but that's how I see it.


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## lordsigma (Jan 28, 2021)

nferr said:


> I'm pretty sure most commuters will just enter/exit through the old Penn Station concourse. They're just rushing through the station to get on/off their train and get to the subway or office. The Moynihan Hall will be mostly used by Amtrak passengers since most of those are spending more time in the station. Also eventually when nice shops/eating options open up it will be visited by tourists and New Yorkers as a a bit of a destination. Could be wrong but that's how I see it.


I think most Amtrak passengers are probably still using the old concourse too. MTH will see more use once it gets more. But right now unless you need the Amtrak ticket counter or baggage or are using the lounge - amenity wise the old Amtrak concourse has more to offer.


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## PVD (Jan 28, 2021)

There has been and continues to be quite a bit of office development West of 8th ave. As offices repopulate the paths of commuters will likely evolve


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## caravanman (Feb 4, 2021)

No mistaking the clientele in this Indian station waiting room!


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 4, 2021)

caravanman said:


> No mistaking the clientele in this Indian station waiting room!
> 
> View attachment 20539


Were you allowed in Eddie?? Lol


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## me_little_me (Feb 4, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> This is some of the most confusing logic I've ever tried to decipher. How many free articles do you need per month before the subscription you refuse to buy is no longer overpriced?


Because I might want to read all articles for a week about something important to me where I lived years ago but I might not read something from that site for a year or more afterwards. Some sites are even worse, allowing only one or two articles.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 25, 2021)

Question - what is wheelchair access like at Moynihan Train hall? I only see escalators in the photo.


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## Mailliw (Mar 25, 2021)

Does the new Metropolitan Lounge at Moynihan have showers like the one in Chicago?


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## joelkfla (Mar 26, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Question - what is wheelchair access like at Moynihan Train hall? I only see escalators in the photo.


Fully accessible. There are elevators to the platforms, and to the Metropolitan Lounge.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 26, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Fully accessible. There are elevators to the platforms, and to the Metropolitan Lounge.



How does one reach the elevators to the platforms? Where are they located?


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 26, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How does one reach the elevators to the platforms? Where are they located?











Accessibility - Moynihan Train Hall NYC


Moynihan Train Hall offers accessibility for passengers of all abilities with full elevator access to all platforms served.




www.moynihantrainhall.nyc


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 26, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Accessibility - Moynihan Train Hall NYC
> 
> 
> Moynihan Train Hall offers accessibility for passengers of all abilities with full elevator access to all platforms served.
> ...



Wonderful... so it looks like the elevators are just behind the escalators so a passenger needing an elevator can easily find them. That’s a great improvement

Also elevator access to the subway.


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## Sidney (Mar 30, 2021)

Inside the Moynihan metropolitan lounge. The food and drink selection is the best I've seen anywhere. This is quite an improvement over the previous lounge. Anybody know if Chicago's lounge is serving food and drink?


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## Cal (Mar 30, 2021)

Sidney said:


> Inside the Moynihan metropolitan lounge. The food and drink selection is the best I've seen anywhere. This is quite an improvement over the previous lounge. Anybody know if Chicago's lounge is serving food and drink?


I was in it just a little while ago today! No food and drink, they direct you to the food court but I don’t think vouchers are given


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## Steve4031 (Mar 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> I was in it just a little while ago today! No food and drink, they direct you to the food court but I don’t think vouchers are given



Not when I was there Saturday night. I did not see any drinks. Maybe water. Did not look. It was in the evening for a trip on 48.


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## Cal (Mar 30, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> Not when I was there Saturday night. I did not see any drinks. Maybe water. Did not look. It was in the evening for a trip on 48.


Apologies if I was unclear, I meant no food or drinks. Bad wording on my part!


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 30, 2021)

Sidney said:


> Inside the Moynihan metropolitan lounge. The food and drink selection is the best I've seen anywhere. This is quite an improvement over the previous lounge. Anybody know if Chicago's lounge is serving food and drink?



Enjoy it while it lasts! What did you have?


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## neroden (Apr 3, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Question - what is wheelchair access like at Moynihan Train hall? I only see escalators in the photo.


It's not only fully-accessible, it has good signage. All the elevators to the tracks are in one row in the train hall and have electronic train departure signs next to them. The Metropolitian Lounge elevator has good signage and is just off the train hall. The main entrances to the train hall are very obvious ramps.

For some reason, which is irritating me, the vast majority of press release photos and fan photos of *any* new rail infrastructure completely omit the wheelchair path of travel. It's a very problematic omission; I'm always scouting the wheelchair route for my girlfriend. The new wheelchair-accessible entrance to Grand Central in the One Vanderbilt building had the same problem: the access is apparently great, but nobody took any photos of it!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 3, 2021)

Interesting Review on Yahoo ( its behindxa Paywall)from " The Points Guy" about the Food and Beverages served in the New Lounge @ NYP.

To summarize the Review:

The reviewer was booked in Acela FC from NYP-WAS, so could have eaten on the Train but wanted to try the offerings in the Stunning New Lounge!

They gave the Coffee and the various Coffee drinks High Mark's ( "Better than Starbucks!"l) and liked the fact that the Food and Drinks were served by Staff Cafeteria Style.

The various juices,softdrinks and waters were good,standard fare.

When it came to the food, the Mark's went down!

The first order was for a Chicken Wrap, which was packaged and served Cold, No Hot items were available on this day, as Amtrak has said they would be.

It was bland and the pita bread was tough and dry.The Chicken had way too much Sodium also.

They then tried a Blueberry muffin, it was Small, stale and a Sugar Bomb, same as the ones served currently in the Diners on the LD Trains.

So it was ditched into the trash after one bite and they tried a Slice of Iced Lemon Cake, which was said to be surprisingly good.

In conclusion, the plan should be to either eat somewhere outside the Station before arrival, bring takeout to the Lounge ( currently allowed) or if riding Acela FC, eat on the Train as it is much better!

I havent gotten to visit the Lounge yet, hope to be able to by this Summer, but several AUers are planning trips to NYP to check it out, so look forward to their reports!


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## Cal (Jun 21, 2021)

I beleive Magnolia Bakery is now open at Moynihan, with a selection of cakes, puddings, cupcakes, and desserts along with beverages.


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## Michigan Mom (Jun 22, 2021)

Points Guy is oddly picky about odd points, I enjoy his writings but don't put much stock in them.


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## Cal (Jun 25, 2021)

According to this, the hours are 5AM to 11:59 PM. What happens for the Palmetto and NER trains 66/67? The Palmetto arrives just before closing and 66/67 arrive between 12 AM and 5. Is the station staffed for it? Do they get checked bags? Or do they have to use the old station?


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 25, 2021)

Cal said:


> According to this, the hours are 5AM to 11:59 PM. What happens for the Palmetto and NER trains 66/67? The Palmetto arrives just before closing and 66/67 arrive between 12 AM and 5. Is the station staffed for it? Do they get checked bags? Or do they have to use the old station?


When Moyninah Hall is closed overnight, access to the platforms and station services are both provided from the old Penn Station area.


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## neroden (Jun 25, 2021)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> When Moyninah Hall is closed overnight, access to the platforms and station services are both provided from the old Penn Station area.


Bleah. This leads to the next question: what track do those two trains come through on? Some of the tracks have much more convenient elevators than others, in the old Penn Station. Some of them were really awful for people with disabilities, others not so bad.


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## caravanman (Jun 25, 2021)

Michigan Mom said:


> Points Guy is oddly picky about odd points, I enjoy his writings but don't put much stock in them.


I have been passing the lockdown time watching a lot of travel channels on youtube. Some train journeys, some flights, etc. I think in order to "grab viewers attention" (and so earn more cash from youtube...) they often put negative or picky comments to make their channel seem to have "revealed" some valuable information. One guy, Josh Cahill, almost 99% of the time launches into "it's my worst flight ever" etc, etc.
I can't get over these privelleged people who swan around in upper class cabins, and pretend they are providing anything other than light entertainment. Me? Yes, of course I am jealous!!


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## MARC Rider (Jun 25, 2021)

I posted this in another post, but yesterday, when I boarded the Crescent, it seemed that most of the coach passengers were coming from the old Penn Station. That said, the ticketed passenger waiting area in Moynihan seemed pretty full.


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## Cal (Jun 25, 2021)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> When Moyninah Hall is closed overnight, access to the platforms and station services are both provided from the old Penn Station area.


So does Amtrak keep the old Penn staffed all the time?


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## daybeers (Jun 25, 2021)

Cal said:


> So does Amtrak keep the old Penn staffed all the time?


I believe only during the hours Moynihan is closed, for the overnight Regional. It's also so they have a more concrete reason to kick non-ticketed passengers out of the building.


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## daybeers (Jun 27, 2021)

Does Moynihan have working water fountains outside the Metropolitan Lounge? Difficult to find places to refill a water bottle without buying plastic.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 27, 2021)

daybeers said:


> Does Moynihan have working water fountains outside the Metropolitan Lounge? Difficult to find places to refill a water bottle without buying plastic.


I didn't see any while I was @ Moynihan in early May, but I didn't go into the Amtrak Waiting Area, only the Metro Lounge where Bottled Water was all that was available .( but you could fill your bottle in the Restroom from the Sinks)


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## PVD (Jun 27, 2021)

I would imagine there might be one in the food court area, but that is not open yet


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