# What was it like to travel in a Heritage Sleeper?



## cpotisch (Mar 22, 2018)

Hello all! I was just wondering how many of you have ever taken a Heritage 10-6 sleeper. Do you remember it fondly? Were they noisy? Did they ride poorly? Was it just generally comfortable? I started traveling Amtrak well after that era, and just wanted to know what it was like.

To my knowledge, this is the last one left more or less in its original form:

#10020 'Pacific Grove'







Thank you for your info and answers!


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## Maglev (Mar 22, 2018)

I rode in a Heritage bedroom on _The Broadway Limited _from Chicago to Greensburg, PA in 1994. I don't specifically remember anything about ride quality or noise, but I do recall that the upholstery was badly stained and my wife thought the room was disgusting.


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## cpotisch (Mar 22, 2018)

Maglev said:


> I rode in a Heritage bedroom on _The Broadway Limited _from Chicago to Greensburg, PA in 1994. I don't specifically remember anything about ride quality or noise, *but I do recall that the upholstery was badly stained and my wife thought the room was disgusting.*


Hmmmm. Sounds nice.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 22, 2018)

It depended on the Railroad, Sleepers involved and how old the equipment was.

Riding on Deluxe Trains like the Super Chief,20th Century,Broadway Ltd.etc was the Height of Luxury.

Some of the old Heavyweight Pullmans were in poor shape by the time I started riding. ( rode hard and put up wet)and of course,once the Class Is started Trains,Off and their "Run ' em off" Campaigns (hello Espee!), things really got dicey on some of the routes but Santa Fe and Southern still tried to run good trains right up to the time they threw in the towel and joined Amtrak.

I especially enjoyed the Amtrak SlumberCoaches I rode in often on the Crescent Route, but some of the 10-6 Sleepers were in poor shape by the time Amtrak took them over..

I must say that the great Majority of the old time OBS still took pride in their jobs, especially the Sleeping Car attendants and the Diner Crews and treated their passengers in a First Class Manner!

As with all things Passenger Rail, YMMV!


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 22, 2018)

The one interesting thing for me was the roomettes. They only had a lower bed, which was all one piece. It folded up into the wall on one side. When it was down in the sleeping position, it


covered the toilet
filled up the room so much that you couldn't stand on the floor between the bed and the door.
[ed. Actually, you could stand on the floor between the bed and the door, but in order to put the bed up, you had to get out of the way.]

So, if you had to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, here was the process:


Secure the curtains on the inside of the door
Open the door
Step down off of the bed onto the floor with your feet partially in the hallway, but you were still covered by the curtain
Fold the bed up into the wall.
Step into the room and close the door.
After business was take care of, reverse the process to put the bed back down.
jb


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## GBNorman (Mar 22, 2018)

From one here who took many many a ride in a "Heritage" Sleeper (first I recall was during 1959; ride on Admin's PRR 60, The Pittsburger, was Dec 1960), the most favorable difference was how much more comfortable the bed was. There was also storage space under the seat and major luggage manufacturers all had lines called Pullman suitcases with those very dimensions in mind. Additionally, Pullman Co had no issues with passengers raising or lowering the "Murphy" bed themselves.

But there were negatives, first of which was you had to step into the hall to raise or lower the bed, be it to go to bed or a "midnite potty break".

Second and final; no shower, which exceeded only by a reservation and ticketing system that works, is the greatest innovation Amtrak has brought about.


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## jis (Mar 22, 2018)

10020 was originally a 10-6. It was converted to a Crew Dorm and served Amtrak in that role before retirement from regular service in 2005. So it has not been in its original 10-6 furnishing in its entirety internally for over two decades now. Its original name "Pacific Bend" has been restored according to the OTOL Amtrak Roster. Originally it was 2504. For a while it carried the name "Pacific Command" after retirement from regular service.

Its sister car, originally 2521 is also around as car 10021 "Pacific Cape". For a while this was named "Pacific Patrol"


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## zephyr17 (Mar 22, 2018)

First, you can get the experience of riding classic streamlined Budd sleepers on Via's Canadian. While they are not 10-6s (the Manors are 4-5-1-4s, 4 roomettes, 5 double bedrooms, 1 compartment, 4 (now 3) sections), they are that era cars. Amtrak only did the Heritage conversion on 10-6s, so the wide variety of sleeping car layouts that the railroads had were reduced to the 10-6s for standardization. BTW, technically the "Heritage" fleet were the HEP converted cars.

They ride fine, of course that depends on how well the trucks and wheels are maintained. The beds are MUCH more comfortable than the beds in a Superliner roomette. They had real mattresses and are wider than those in a Superliner roomette, about as wide as a twin (at least at the head, some sleeper designs had cut outs at the bottom of the bed for the washstand, for those cars where the sink did not fold into the wall). For the roomettes, in addition to the "combolet" that is underneath the bed at night, unlike the Viewliner Is, there was also a "public" restroom if you did not want to fool with the bed at night.

One great thing about the classic sleepers is the bed is exactly the same level as the bottom of the window. In roomettes you didn't have to prop yourself up to see out at night, all you need do is turn your head.

All in all, I would say they were much better designed and comfortable than a Superliner.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 22, 2018)

I rode Heritage Sleepers on The Broadway, The Capital Limited, and the LSL. The equipment was already worn out when Amtrak inherited the cars, there were much better pre-Amtrak. I remember some cars worse than others, in how much you got tossed around. The beds were comfortable and wider than today. In the roomette, the night procedure for using the toilet was inconvenient. The bedrooms were comfortable. There were no showering facilities hut no one minded not having something they never had.


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## RPC (Mar 22, 2018)

I rode the Broadway Limited many times (late 80s/early 90s) and the Capitol and LSL occasionally. I remember the Heritage sleepers as shabby but comfortable. The ride was generally smooth and the beds were a step up from anything on Amtrak today - real mattresses with springs! The dim incandescent lighting made for a friendly atmosphere. That said, I generally rode the Slumbercoach if the train had one - it was much cheaper! (The Slumbercoaches had outside swing hangar trucks which made for an even better ride than the First Class sleepers, but tended to have more squeaks and rattles inside.)


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## chakk (Mar 22, 2018)

They weren't shabby at all when I rode them in 1969 and 1970 (pre-Amtrak) on B&O, NYC, CN, SP, UP, ATSF, N&W, WP, DRGW, and CB&Q


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 22, 2018)

I've ridden and slept on plenty of ex heritage cars. It all depends on the trucks for the ride quality. And the owner for the bedding. My personal favorite is the A room in a VIA Park car before the prestige rebuild.


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## cpotisch (Mar 22, 2018)

RPC said:


> I rode the Broadway Limited many times (late 80s/early 90s) and the Capitol and LSL occasionally. I remember the Heritage sleepers as shabby but comfortable. The ride was generally smooth and the beds were a step up from anything on Amtrak today - real mattresses with springs! The dim incandescent lighting made for a friendly atmosphere. That said, I generally rode the Slumbercoach if the train had one - it was much cheaper! (The Slumbercoaches had outside swing hangar trucks which made for an even better ride than the First Class sleepers, but tended to have more squeaks and rattles inside.)


I guess if the whole bed folds up and out of the way, you don't need a flexible mattress that you can stow. Still it somewhat shocks me that an Amtrak room would have anything like an actual spring mattress, considering today we get a 3 inch thick foam sheet.


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## Palmland (Mar 22, 2018)

As has been said, the best things about the heritage sleepers were the thick and wide mattresses as well as a real blanket. The later model sleepers had a cut a way bed so if you needed tor raise it to use the toilet you could keep the door closed. The other best feature was the consistency of good service provided by the Pullman porter (so sorry if the term is not PC). Amtrak would do well to follow the Pullman Co. manual for sleeping car service and provide appropriate supervisory oversight to insure consistency. But, as Gil Norman says, Amtrak gets an attaboy for the civilized introduction of showers.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> RPC said:
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> 
> > I rode the Broadway Limited many times (late 80s/early 90s) and the Capitol and LSL occasionally. I remember the Heritage sleepers as shabby but comfortable. The ride was generally smooth and the beds were a step up from anything on Amtrak today - real mattresses with springs! The dim incandescent lighting made for a friendly atmosphere. That said, I generally rode the Slumbercoach if the train had one - it was much cheaper! (The Slumbercoaches had outside swing hangar trucks which made for an even better ride than the First Class sleepers, but tended to have more squeaks and rattles inside.)
> ...


Because they weren't "Amtrak" rooms. Amtrak took over equipment that was designed by the likes of Pullman-Standard and Budd for railroads that were catering to the expense account business traveler (the main source of sleeper patronage). Think airline international Business and First Class offerings like United's Polaris when thinking about why they were offering comfort and convienence (for a price).

As far as Amtrak goes, that equipment was designed for mattresses, and as long as they were in use, mattresses were what was used.

"Go Pullman and Arrive Refreshed!"


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## railiner (Mar 22, 2018)

John Bobinyec said:


> The one interesting thing for me was the roomettes. They only had a lower bed, which was all one piece. It folded up into the wall on one side. When it was down in the sleeping position, it
> 
> 
> covered the toilet
> ...


Just a minor correction...the zippered curtains were on the outside of the roomette doors (the aisle side)....


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## cpotisch (Mar 22, 2018)

railiner said:


> John Bobinyec said:
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> > The one interesting thing for me was the roomettes. They only had a lower bed, which was all one piece. It folded up into the wall on one side. When it was down in the sleeping position, it
> ...


Why would they stick curtains on the aisle side? That totally compromises privacy.


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## railiner (Mar 22, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> Second and final; no shower, which exceeded only by a reservation and ticketing system that works, is the greatest innovation Amtrak has brought about.


Generally true, but there were actually a handful of Pullman's with "Master Rooms" that contained a private shower....The Broadway Limited was one of the trains that had them.

The Southern Crescent, prior to Amtrak takeover, was the last to offer them.


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## railiner (Mar 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
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The outside curtains, were to offer privacy when you had to open your door at night to back into the aisle to lower the bed to use the toilet...

You could also keep them zippered during the day, if you wanted to ride with your door slid open, for 'ventilation' or whatever reason...


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## zephyr17 (Mar 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> railiner said:
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> > John Bobinyec said:
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The curtains were fully secured to the walls on the sides, no compromise to privacy. The only thing that opened was the zipper in the middle


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## railiner (Mar 22, 2018)

Having the curtains outside your door had the added benefit of sound insulation from foot traffic during the night....they were very heavily constructed, nothing like the flimsy curtains of today....more like the curtains that gave privacy to the old open section berth's....


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## cpotisch (Mar 22, 2018)

zephyr17 said:


> cpotisch said:
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Right, but (and not to get hung up on this) couldn't someone outside just unzip it and see the occupant 'using the facilities'?


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## trainman74 (Mar 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Right, but (and not to get hung up on this) couldn't someone outside just unzip it and see the occupant 'using the facilities'?


Yes, that was theoretically possible, but at best, it would result in some angry words from both the roomette passenger and the sleeping car attendant.

I rode in a Heritage 10-6 sleeper on the southbound City of New Orleans in the summer of 1990. The air conditioning went out in the evening, was fixed by the Chief of On-Board Services at a station stop, fortunately kept working all night, but then went out again after lunch and couldn't be fixed. (They let passengers sit at the dining car tables.)


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## Big Iron (Mar 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> zephyr17 said:
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The zipper pull faced inwards so would be difficult for someone outside to open. Up until Amtrak stopped smoking on trains, one could smoke in their sleeping accommodation so they always smelled like smoke. I prefer the 10-6 roomette over Superliner and dearly miss the Slumbercoach.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> zephyr17 said:
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One thing to note was that the door on the Heritage 10-6s was SOLID. There was no window in it. The reason for the curtain was to allow the occupant a bit more room to step out when raising and lowering the bed. It was not to cover a window in the door as there was not one.

So, for that matter, if someone has the curtain on a Superliner roomette closed but the door open (say, for air flow), there is nothing stopping someone from reaching around and and un-velcro-ing it. I think there is a large difference between the possibility of an inadvertent opening of a poorly secured curtain, and a deliberate attempt to open it. In case of the later, I think that would be cause for immediate complaint to the conductor and removal of the opener into the arms of law enforcement at a convienent grade crossing.

I repeat my opinion that the old RR sleepers were better designed.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 22, 2018)

PS, at night on the old equipment I zipped the curtain, AND closed the door. That way if I had to raise the bed, I could just open the door, step the side, and do it.


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## John Bobinyec (Mar 22, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> zephyr17 said:
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No. See Step 5.

jb


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 22, 2018)

I remember a few rides on the PRR, B&O, and the Santa Fe. The Pullman Porters were tops in customer service. I don't remember them ever sleeping, they were always available when you called. These cars,1950's 1960's, kept up in good condition. I remember as a young boy travels to/from NYC, WAS, LAX, with grandparents and my parents, and finally by myself. Amtrak made some improvements with the new sleepers, but the old Pullman cars were great. Again, I think the Porters working for Pullman, made the whole experience what it was.


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## Skyline (Mar 22, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> I rode Heritage Sleepers on The Broadway, The Capital Limited, and the LSL. The equipment was already worn out when Amtrak inherited the cars, there were much better pre-Amtrak. I remember some cars worse than others, in how much you got tossed around. The beds were comfortable and wider than today. In the roomette, the night procedure for using the toilet was inconvenient. The bedrooms were comfortable. There were no showering facilities hut no one minded not having something they never had.


Humans don't NEED to shower every day, just clean up at a sink. Even with showers on today's sleepers, many pax don't use them. Nice they're offered tho...


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## Skyline (Mar 22, 2018)

Big Iron said:


> cpotisch said:
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Agree. Slumbercoaches were remarkably and efficiently well designed, and definitely priced right. Back in the day I chose them over roomettes or better when possible. Also lamented their absence on most trains. I wish Amtrak would include a true economy sleeper in a future order for new equipment. No frills, no meals included, just comfortable-enough *private *horizontal sleeping space.


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## railiner (Mar 22, 2018)

Skyline said:


> Lonestar648 said:
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> > I rode Heritage Sleepers on The Broadway, The Capital Limited, and the LSL. The equipment was already worn out when Amtrak inherited the cars, there were much better pre-Amtrak. I remember some cars worse than others, in how much you got tossed around. The beds were comfortable and wider than today. In the roomette, the night procedure for using the toilet was inconvenient. The bedrooms were comfortable. There were no showering facilities hut no one minded not having something they never had.
> ...


Back in the pre-Amtrak era, many major stations and terminals had large rest rooms where you could 'rent' a shower for just some change, including fresh bar of soap, and clean towels. So someone doing a transcontinental trip could shower when changing trains at Chicago or St. Lous, for example.

Back in those days, you could rent pillows on overnight trains....everything seemed "more civilized" back then....lots of coin lockers, and other accommodations for budget traveler's.

Those were the days of "commercial traveler's" (salesmen), riding trains everywhere....

Sometimes I wish I was born earlier.....


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## Larry H. (Mar 22, 2018)

I rode the Empire Builder one month before Amtrak Took over the passenger business. I rode the UP to San Francisco around 1961, the Panama Limited several times in the 60's. The Canadian National around the late 60s. There was no doubt that the Pullman Company insisted on maintaining a quality of service right till they ended their part in rail travel. The cars which were varied were more solid feeling than today and the constant rattles or banging of doors was generally not heard. The rooms were more like small hotel rooms than what Amtrak had built to replace them. As mentioned the beds in roomettes were better than the latter designs. On the Canadian National from Toronto to Vancouver we had a bedroom but that train carried lots of pullman type cars, some still with the upper and lower berths with just a curtain to enclose you from the hall way. A lot of people were using them still and the train carried 22 cars, not including several baggage and dorm cars. On the americas trains of better quality buying a first class ticket was not the outrageously higher cost than coach seen today. And you usually had a first class only lounge and card room or bookcases and desk with postcards to send. Some trains carried a first class diner as well as a coach diner. I remember the City of Los Angles met up with the City of St. Louis and then had a diner in a dome car. The most wonderful part of travel by train then was the fact that each company had its own special idea of decor, and color schemes on the exterior. When you said you were riding the Empire Builder it actually meant something, now its just getting on the same cars no matter where your going. And the speed of the trains was considerably faster as well. The Panama Limited was rated at 100 miles an hour on much of its run. I recall coming out of New Orleans at night and hearing he wheels hitting the sides of the tracks on curves and sparks flying from the wheels. If I recall correctly it left Chicago heading south around 6pm and was in New Orleans in the early morning unlike the late after noon it now takes to make the same trip. The food in those days on good trains was usually far better than what we see now. Our congress has a funny idea that ruining the dining experience is a good idea, I think not.

We did have one memorably bad sleeper experience on the Missouri Pacific going to Colorado Springs. It was Christmas and the St. Louis Union Station was absolutely packed with travelers. We had made reservations for my Grand Parents way out thinking that would provide a decent car. It didn't turn out that way, they got a ancient sleeper with old fashioned style bedrooms that had a flat wheel to boot. That thing was almost unbearable and the new pullmans were smooth as glass. I guess at least we got to see what the previous generation of sleepers was like too.

And I nearly forgot till I read the previous post that in those days many people still wore suits and ties and women wore dresses on board. The lounges were elegant with over stuffed chairs and lamps arranged in interesting designs. I recall the Broadway Limited I think it was that had the serpentine wavy walls behind the bar with painting on it, very deco and quite striking.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 22, 2018)

I remember my father, who worked for Westinghouse, traveling by train all over the country. Electric razor, toothbrush, and his comb plus an extra shirt and tie in the brief case with his files. He did take a suitcase when he went to the west coast. He was a regular on the B&O between Pittsburgh and Washington,DC., Pittsburgh and Chicago, and some how to Knoxville (Oak Ridge), but don't remember how. He got to know several of the Pullman Porters by name and who remembered him when we got to see him off some evenings. There were several trains in the grand PRR Station, plus the B&O station across the river at the base of Mt. Washington. My father found the trains a perfect place to write his reports and memos so the secretary could type them when he returned to the office. Occasionally, my mother would travel out west with him and my sister and I on the shorter trips east.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Mar 23, 2018)

Skyline said:


> Agree. Slumbercoaches were remarkably and efficiently well designed, and definitely priced right. Back in the day I chose them over roomettes or better when possible. Also lamented their absence on most trains. I wish Amtrak would include a true economy sleeper in a future order for new equipment. No frills, no meals included, just comfortable-enough *private *horizontal sleeping space.


Wish they existed today.


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## bratkinson (Mar 23, 2018)

I managed to ride Amtraks' sleepers quite a bit both pre-HEP and post-HEP. Compared to todays' Superliners or Viewliners, the old sleepers were like heaven, in my book. Even when they showed too many trips without being refurb'ed, they were still the way to go.

On the good side:

1. Beds were far more comfortable

2. Beds were almost 'twin sized'

3. Other than the door, there never were any rattles that needed a piece of two of shim stock to cure

4. As all the roomette curtains were in the carpeted halls, the cars seemed to be more quiet than any of the 'new stuff' (all of which is 20-38 years old already!)

5. The backside of the door held a full mirror

6. They had a 'medicine chest' above the sink that held soap, extra toilet paper, and whatever one put in there themselves, such as shaving items, etc.

7. They had far larger windows than todays' equipment

8. If you had the muscle to do so, there was a shelf on the wall in the 'holds the upright bed' wall that was big enough to hold a very large suitcase, as well as maybe 12" vertical clearance under the couchette for luggage, too.

9. The window sill was about 4" wide and horizontal. Was perfect for setting a scanner on it!

10. The shades, not curtains, did a very good job of blocking out ALL light from the room at night.

11. They had a pouch on the 'head board' to put ones glasses and other items into when the bed was lowered. As that headboard moved down as the bed folded up, it was not accessible when the bed was up.

On the bad side:

1. When originally converted to HEP, the removed the tiny toilet (smaller than that in a RV!) accessible from the hallway, and extended roomette 10 to make it into a handicap bedroom.

2. There was only one thick metal wall between roomettes so if you had loud neighbors, you heard 'em. I don't know how the new equipment limits adjoining room noise.

3. In most of the 10-6's, there was a 4" long lever sticking out of the 'front' wall (if you are seated on the couch, the lever is on the opposite wall) that gets pushed down by the bed when lowered. That lever prevented the sink from being opened up when the bed was down. I suspect that was done to keep men and boys from peeing in the sink when the bed is down.

4. It was always interesting to watch the ties go by if you held your foot on the flush pedal for the toilet. No holding tanks on those cars!

5. It was rare, indeed, if the carpeting had any 'fuzz' left on them, or, if so, the carpet pile was packed full of who knows what. It didn't take long to realize that I needed to travel with a pair of beat up moccassins to keep my feet clean unless I didn't mind grubby socks. I do the same, today.

6. I've seen passengers with dogs of all sizes, even a german shepherd in the rooms. Not all were house trained.

7. Ditto #6 for kids.

8. In the days of steam heat (pre-HEP), there were trips where it could not be turned up warmer, turned off while travelling to Florida, or even producing ANY heat as the sleepers were always in the rear and a freeze up ahead resulted in my sleeping fully clothed, overcoat and all!

9. If someone in the next room was stinking up the place while on the toilet, the odors wafted through to the next roomette.

10. Because it was a simple spring loaded 'flapper' that would open up when flushed, sometimes...no...make that oftentimes it didn't close sufficiently to eliminate all track/rail/wheel noise from entering the room. Probably, the spring was weaker than needed. I learned to take some wetted toilet paper and put it in the bottom of the toilet to stop the noise.

11. As a portend of Viewliner roomettes, some sleepers had a narrowed down end a couple of inches as the sink/medicine chest stuck too far into the room for the bed to clear it. I think those were former Union Pacific cars, but don't shoot me if I got the wrong RR!

12. There was no table, not even a small one like Viewliners and Superliners. You had to ask the porter to bring it. One end sat in/on a ledge under the window and a single leg folded out from under it. As I recall, it was 18-20" wide and maybe 36" long.

13. There was a small 1940's style oscillating table fan mounted on a small platform or bolted directly to the wall, maybe 8" diameter from outside to outside of the unprotected rubber blades near the ceiling that was seldom quiet running. I sometimes had to turn it off if I wanted to sleep they were so noisy!!!

14. Some of the roomettes, maybe most of them, had a little metal ring attached to the wall that dropped over the bed release lever (at the foot of the bed, adjacent to the sink-lock lever) that had to be pulled slightly to unlock it from the down position before raising it. The beds had strong springs, like those for a overhead garage door, that reduced the apparent weight of the bed. Not all 'bed lock' latches stayed latched all night. The result was that the bed could start to close up by itself if not fully latched down, and secured with the little metal ring that prevented it from going up more than an inch or so.

While it wasn't done with the original HEP'ing of the equipment, in later years, they DID put a shower in some of the cars! They removed roomette #9 (#10 was the handicap room) and replaced it with a shower more cramped than in Viewliners and Superliners today. I definitely recall the showers being on the Three Rivers before it was terminated. Perhaps the shower was installed only for that run for crew members and/or as it was the last LD train with Heritage Fleet equipment, they wanted to make it comparable to the Superliners and Viewliners having showers.


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## OBS (Mar 23, 2018)

Big Iron said:


> cpotisch said:
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Actually the zipper had pull tabs on both sides of the curtain.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 23, 2018)

They were far heavier so the ride quality was better at high speeds.


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## dlagrua (Mar 23, 2018)

Can't say that I've traveled in any Heritage sleepers but I did have chance to explore them at the Illinois Railroad Museum. The Slumbercoach was the most interesting. They were designed with 40 beds per car, There were 24 single private rooms and 8 bedrooms on both sides with a hall down the center. The single rooms were arranged in a duplex (staggered up/down) fashion and during the day the seat measured 26" wide and the bed when put down was 24" wide and 6' long. Each room featured a light, mirror, fold-away wash basin and private toilet. It was an amazing and efficient use of space for a single level car. The rooms were a bit small and the beds a little narrow but single traveler could have a small private room for just a little more than coach fare. It was a very affordable way to enjoy an overnight trip and the Slumbercoach held more than 2/3 the capacity of a std coach that had 56 seats.. I don't understand why the design is not used anymore. For a single traveler it was ideal.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 23, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> Can't say that I've traveled in any Heritage sleepers but I did have chance to explore them at the Illinois Railroad Museum. The Slumbercoach was the most interesting. They were designed with 40 beds per car, There were 24 single private rooms and 8 bedrooms on both sides with a hall down the center. The single rooms were arranged in a duplex (staggered up/down) fashion and during the day the seat measured 26" wide and the bed when put down was 24" wide and 6' long. Each room featured a light, mirror, fold-away wash basin and private toilet. It was an amazing and efficient use of space for a single level car. The rooms were a bit small and the beds a little narrow but single traveler could have a small private room for just a little more than coach fare. It was a very affordable way to enjoy an overnight trip and the Slumbercoach held more than 2/3 the capacity of a std coach that had 56 seats.. I don't understand why the design is not used anymore. For a single traveler it was ideal.



I've always felt they should return to this concept. It should supplement, not replace the existing sleeper fleet. The only thing is the potential plumbing nightmare. The coach you observed dumped the toilet waste directly on the tracks...and a Florida Congressman!


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 23, 2018)

The option would be to return them with out the toilet and have a public toilet instead, thus eliminate the plumbing nightmare. Sounds like a great option, plus a good way to increase revenue. At this point Amtrak is too low on inventory to make a different car from the stock they have, but with new sleepers, Maybe Beech Grove could rebuild one into a Slumber/Duplex Sleeper to run as a test for passenger acceptance and what works and doesn't.


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## chakk (Mar 24, 2018)

chakk said:


> They weren't shabby at all when I rode them in 1969 and 1970 (pre-Amtrak) on B&O, NYC, CN, SP, UP, ATSF, N&W, WP, DRGW, and CB&Q


And on all of these roads, the porter would shine my shoes during the night if I left them in the shoe locker expressly designed for that purpose.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## OBS (Mar 24, 2018)

chakk said:


> chakk said:
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> ...


Amtrak did that also for many years. I was issued a shoe shine kit as part of my "tools" when I hired on in the 1980's.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 24, 2018)

The problem is you would need at least two or three to test a slumbercoach product out. So you could have one available on all departures. The LSL requires a minimum of three, the SS has a minimum of four, same with the SM. The cardinal would require two.


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## railiner (Mar 24, 2018)

When I lived in Denver, in the 70's and 80's, I used to take the train back to New York once or twice a year on vacations As a station employee, I got to know the crews pretty well, and leaving Denver, they would "take care of me"....

They would let me ride in the trans-coach-dorm, which was not used for passenger's, off-season. So I had 40 seats to myself. I would turn the front pair around, and raise all four legrests, to create a nice 'bed'. And they would give me a blanket and pillow. In addition, they let me use the nice big crew shower on the lower level, which was appreciated, as I would often work that train, right up until departure time, to extend my vacation a day.

East of Chicago, I would buy a Single Slumbercoach on either The Broadway, or the Lake Shore. Besides the 24-8 type Slumber's, well described by diagrua above, I would sometimes get one of the 16 Single, 10 Double type, that were converted from all-roomette cars. These had four 'bonus' single rooms, that were actually double rooms, but only were built with one bed in them. They were very roomy, plus had the larger window. These were always rooms 1 through 4. Why they were built that way, I can only guess....

At the time they were completed, there may have been a much larger call for single rooms than doubles, so they adjusted their plans, but could always change them back, if needed relatively easily. Then, they would have been 12 Single, 14 Double slumbercoaches....

I liked to party until 'closing time' in the lounge cars back then, and one nice feature of all the slumber's was that you could still use the toilet at night, without the need to raise the bed.


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## railiner (Mar 24, 2018)

chakk said:


> chakk said:
> 
> 
> > They weren't shabby at all when I rode them in 1969 and 1970 (pre-Amtrak) on B&O, NYC, CN, SP, UP, ATSF, N&W, WP, DRGW, and CB&Q
> ...


Back in the Pullman days, IIRC, they would even sponge and press your suit on request...not sure about that one though....

but they would use a 'whisk broom' and brush you off as you departed....


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## PaTrainFan (Mar 24, 2018)

A lot of memories reading through the recollections of others on this topic. I was fortunate enough as a child to ride the Denver Zephyr, California Zephyr and the Great Nothern's Western Star, as well as The Canadian (CP) and Super Continental (CN), among others, when quality mattered. I only wish I could have experienced the Broadway Limited and 20th Century Limited at their peak. To echo what has been stated several times, the best part of the older sleepers was that the beds were at window level so it was easy to lay in bed and watch the countryside go by. That's why, on my first and only trip in a Viewliner a couple of years ago, I chose to sleep in the upper berth, as it allowed me the view that I wanted. Agree with others that the cars were better built and rode better. One issue I have with Superliners is that in the bedrooms the beds do not parallel the windows. That said, still thinking of the era, the dining car was an experience unto itself as well as the lounges.


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## cpotisch (Mar 24, 2018)

If every slumbercoach room had a toilet, and the rooms were staggered, doesn't that mean that someone could be 'using the facilities' two feet above your head? That sort of grosses me out.


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## Big Iron (Mar 24, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> If every slumbercoach room had a toilet, and the rooms were staggered, doesn't that mean that someone could be 'using the facilities' two feet above your head? That sort of grosses me out.


Not really, maybe over your feet. The link below has a side view diagram but does not seem totally accurate to me. It makes the rooms look larger.

https://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/history/Images/presentation/side2-panel-k.jpg

I found the link in this RAILforum thread.

http://www.railforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/11/5116.html


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## chakk (Mar 24, 2018)

I think it was the other person's feet above your head in the duplex single rooms on the Slumbercoach. The "other" head in the room was offset from the bed.

And I recall that for awhile the slumbercoaches on Amtrak's Crescent where actually standard configuration 10-6 sleepers -- you just didn't get the free meal(s) with your room reservation.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 24, 2018)

I rode in one of the 10-6 slumber coaches on 51 once. I thought the regular slumber coach was bad ordered.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## railiner (Mar 24, 2018)

I think this illustrates the duplex portion setup a little better.... https://www.google.com/search?q=slumbercoach+diagram&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS739US739&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=_1aTIO98rDYuPM%253A%252C_pAwedXe1HzOSM%252C_&usg=__Wv-QmSrRJ04SsTdg9ptBTM55ugQ%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgz6jk-IXaAhVmmeAKHabhDCQQ9QEIKzAB#imgrc=_1aTIO98rDYuPM:

and this.... https://www.google.com/search?q=slumbercoach+floor+plan&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS739US739&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=sPTDdb6PFrLavM%253A%252CPCGRcisakAMXSM%252C_&usg=__JL8hsxgAOqH4VcVoLq9ZBzvksKo%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4rfjh-YXaAhWPmOAKHcZqDeUQ9QEIRTAF#imgdii=-0_qJZWvn7IadM:&imgrc=sPTDdb6PFrLavM:


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## cpotisch (Mar 24, 2018)

Big Iron said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > If every slumbercoach room had a toilet, and the rooms were staggered, doesn't that mean that someone could be 'using the facilities' two feet above your head? That sort of grosses me out.
> ...


Thanks. Still quite an odd layout but definitely not as gross as if it was right above your head.


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## Skyline (Mar 25, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> The option would be to return them with out the toilet and have a public toilet instead, thus eliminate the plumbing nightmare. Sounds like a great option, plus a good way to increase revenue. At this point Amtrak is too low on inventory to make a different car from the stock they have, but with new sleepers, Maybe Beech Grove could rebuild one into a Slumber/Duplex Sleeper to run as a test for passenger acceptance and what works and doesn't.


If it's priced right it would be a resounding success!


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## Gulfwind2 (Mar 25, 2018)

Larry H. said:


> I rode the Empire Builder one month before Amtrak Took over the passenger business. I rode the UP to San Francisco around 1961, the Panama Limited several times in the 60's. The Canadian National around the late 60s. There was no doubt that the Pullman Company insisted on maintaining a quality of service right till they ended their part in rail travel. The cars which were varied were more solid feeling than today and the constant rattles or banging of doors was generally not heard. The rooms were more like small hotel rooms than what Amtrak had built to replace them. As mentioned the beds in roomettes were better than the latter designs. On the Canadian National from Toronto to Vancouver we had a bedroom but that train carried lots of pullman type cars, some still with the upper and lower berths with just a curtain to enclose you from the hall way. A lot of people were using them still and the train carried 22 cars, not including several baggage and dorm cars. On the americas trains of better quality buying a first class ticket was not the outrageously higher cost than coach seen today. And you usually had a first class only lounge and card room or bookcases and desk with postcards to send. Some trains carried a first class diner as well as a coach diner. I remember the City of Los Angles met up with the City of St. Louis and then had a diner in a dome car. The most wonderful part of travel by train then was the fact that each company had its own special idea of decor, and color schemes on the exterior. When you said you were riding the Empire Builder it actually meant something, now its just getting on the same cars no matter where your going. And the speed of the trains was considerably faster as well. The Panama Limited was rated at 100 miles an hour on much of its run. I recall coming out of New Orleans at night and hearing he wheels hitting the sides of the tracks on curves and sparks flying from the wheels. If I recall correctly it left Chicago heading south around 6pm and was in New Orleans in the early morning unlike the late after noon it now takes to make the same trip. The food in those days on good trains was usually far better than what we see now. Our congress has a funny idea that ruining the dining experience is a good idea, I think not.
> 
> We did have one memorably bad sleeper experience on the Missouri Pacific going to Colorado Springs. It was Christmas and the St. Louis Union Station was absolutely packed with travelers. We had made reservations for my Grand Parents way out thinking that would provide a decent car. It didn't turn out that way, they got a ancient sleeper with old fashioned style bedrooms that had a flat wheel to boot. That thing was almost unbearable and the new pullmans were smooth as glass. I guess at least we got to see what the previous generation of sleepers was like too.
> 
> And I nearly forgot till I read the previous post that in those days many people still wore suits and ties and women wore dresses on board. The lounges were elegant with over stuffed chairs and lamps arranged in interesting designs. I recall the Broadway Limited I think it was that had the serpentine wavy walls behind the bar with painting on it, very deco and quite striking.


From what I gather you're certainly giving a good account of the way it was. You clearly lived through the best years of American travel. Although I feel the main reason for why travel, and particularly train travel, can never go back to "the way it was" is due to the change in our culture. People in the early to mid 20th century dressed up to travel because it was an experience. There was genuine excitement involved, especially for youngsters. Additionally traveling was an experience which could put strain on the bank for a lot of families. There was a sure expectation of stellar service in light of how costly it was to travel Pullman, and Pullman surely lived up to it. Traveling long distances has become affordable for most of the General public ever since those days, but as with any trade off there has been the fading out of some wonderful things. Today's traveler generally seeks the cheapest and fastest mode of transport with little regard for what one may call "the travel experience." I feel it is more due to the culture than it is due to economics that trains will never again link major American cities with distinctive dining and sleeping car service, railroads will never again fight one another to show the most pizzaz for the tasteful business traveler, and sleeping cars will never be seen by the present society as being anything more than a novelty from a bygone era. "Those things are gone just like the days when the milkman came each morning and when an airline ticket always got you a hot meal!"


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## Anderson (Mar 25, 2018)

Speaking from experience on The Canadian, I'd say that I have a modest preference for the "old" roomettes to the new ones (partly due to bed size and mattress thickness)...but the preference is very modest, since there are times when it's nice to be able to put two people in the room, and obviously there's going to be some variation in quality from route to route and railroad to railroad. FWIW, at night you don't need to put the bed _all_ the way up to use the restroom...I usually wound up with mine slightly out rather than fight it all the way in.


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## nshvlcat (Mar 25, 2018)

bratkinson said:


> 13. There was a small 1940's style oscillating table fan mounted on a small platform or bolted directly to the wall, maybe 8" diameter from outside to outside of the unprotected rubber blades near the ceiling that was seldom quiet running. I sometimes had to turn it off if I wanted to sleep they were so noisy!!!


I found a picture of what you are talking about.


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## railiner (Mar 25, 2018)

nshvlcat said:


> bratkinson said:
> 
> 
> > 13. There was a small 1940's style oscillating table fan mounted on a small platform or bolted directly to the wall, maybe 8" diameter from outside to outside of the unprotected rubber blades near the ceiling that was seldom quiet running. I sometimes had to turn it off if I wanted to sleep they were so noisy!!!
> ...


That is a standard Pullman Roomette, with the 'cutaway' type of bed...


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## Palmland (Mar 25, 2018)

The cutaway bed was used on my favorite Pullman, L&N and C&EI 6 sec, 6 rmte 4 DBR delivered in 1953. It was also a favorite of Trains magazine editor David P. Morgan. This design eliminated the need for the curtains (although they were still needed, of course, for the sections. The bedrooms were in the center of the car for a better ride for those paying the higher bedroom supplement. There is still one in charter service renamed from Plantation Pine to Colorado Pine. I believe Ed Ellis leased it for a while for use in his operations.


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## Dakota 400 (Mar 25, 2018)

Anyone interested in some memories of maybe a pre-Heritage Pullman Sleeping Car on PRR's overnight train between Columbus, Ohio and Chicago? (The Ohioan maybe was its name.)

Sections in one part of the car with a lounge in the other part of the car, both served by the Pullman Porter, as I recall. (I was old enough to just order a Ginger Ale.) Very comfortable seating and when the car was at the end of the train provided a "train fan window/view" of excellence!

Toilets in the bathrooms allowed one to see the tracks underneath the car when I flushed the toilet. Lavatory water was hot and the bathroom area was spacious, I thought.

On one trip, it was raining when we left Columbus. My Mother and I were sharing a lower Section bed. Water began to leak from the double window onto me; I was positioned nearest the windows. My Mother informed the Pullman Porter who summoned the Pullman Conductor. Nothing could be done to resolve the issue in our Section's berth. But, there was one Roomette available in the next Pullman car on the train and we were transferred to that room. That was a very cozy bed for my Mother and me. But, it worked! And, has provided a train memory I won't forget.


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## Maglev (Mar 25, 2018)

When I rode CN's _Super Continental _from Montreal to Vancouver, I had the lower berth in an open section. The car was smooth-sided, and had I think six sections, three or four bedrooms, and six roomettes (that seems like too many rooms to fit in a car, maybe my memory is not correct). My Dad said the train was built in 1949, and he said it was called, "The train of tomorrow."

The berths in a section have a 3' 7"-wide mattress. This I think is the widest bed standardly available on the rails except for Prestige Class (wider beds may be available on private or limited access cars).


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## Skyline (Mar 26, 2018)

Gulfwind2 said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > I rode the Empire Builder one month before Amtrak Took over the passenger business. I rode the UP to San Francisco around 1961, the Panama Limited several times in the 60's. The Canadian National around the late 60s. There was no doubt that the Pullman Company insisted on maintaining a quality of service right till they ended their part in rail travel. The cars which were varied were more solid feeling than today and the constant rattles or banging of doors was generally not heard. The rooms were more like small hotel rooms than what Amtrak had built to replace them. As mentioned the beds in roomettes were better than the latter designs. On the Canadian National from Toronto to Vancouver we had a bedroom but that train carried lots of pullman type cars, some still with the upper and lower berths with just a curtain to enclose you from the hall way. A lot of people were using them still and the train carried 22 cars, not including several baggage and dorm cars. On the americas trains of better quality buying a first class ticket was not the outrageously higher cost than coach seen today. And you usually had a first class only lounge and card room or bookcases and desk with postcards to send. Some trains carried a first class diner as well as a coach diner. I remember the City of Los Angles met up with the City of St. Louis and then had a diner in a dome car. The most wonderful part of travel by train then was the fact that each company had its own special idea of decor, and color schemes on the exterior. When you said you were riding the Empire Builder it actually meant something, now its just getting on the same cars no matter where your going. And the speed of the trains was considerably faster as well. The Panama Limited was rated at 100 miles an hour on much of its run. I recall coming out of New Orleans at night and hearing he wheels hitting the sides of the tracks on curves and sparks flying from the wheels. If I recall correctly it left Chicago heading south around 6pm and was in New Orleans in the early morning unlike the late after noon it now takes to make the same trip. The food in those days on good trains was usually far better than what we see now. Our congress has a funny idea that ruining the dining experience is a good idea, I think not.
> ...


I really think most Americans have become more "casual" about everything from work attire to travel to church. Even weddings and funerals. Generally I like this change, and am thrilled that most restaurants today do not enforce a dress code. The idea that a company that wants my money has the right to force me to dress a certain way is absurd.

We can have nice trains, restaurants, theaters, etc. without dressing up. While I may yearn for trains of yesteryear, and lotsa luck with that, the lack of dress codes is not the reason they are far and few between. It's more that most Americans are in such a hurry to do everything that they fail to appreciate the benefits of "chilling out."


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 26, 2018)

Yes, Americans are so busy, never relaxing even when on vacation. When supposedly on vacation how many feel the need to check their messages and make and take phone calls. At a recent function, I noticed that everyone under 50 had their cell phone on the table, in their lap, or in their hand in use. Some could barely eat, carry on conversation, etc. Taking the train is so slow for these people. See the beauty of this country is boring and unproductive.They can barely take the time to fly, complaining bitterly at slightest delay. They have schedulers for each of their children so they can schedule 15-30 minutes each day to be with these children, keeping the kids busy with one activity after another.

Yes, looking at train travel in the 50's and 60's everyone was in formal business attire, but i think that the great customer service in part had to be at that level, so with more causal dress, customer service seems to have suffered. I do not enjoy a coat and tie, but sometimes I think I would endure the discomfort just to have that customer service level again.


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## Northbound98 (Mar 26, 2018)

I grew up in the '80s and '90s so I guess I am one of the last generations that got to ride in Heritage Fleet 10-6's and Slumbercoaches in their final miles.

As I recall the Slumbercoaches I rode on were ex-CB&Q and ex-C&O because they had the 24-8 layout, so no ex-NYC cars. They had a lot of what appeared to be fiberglass and formica on the interiors and these rigid materials liked to rattle especially when the train was moving at high speed. The sliding doors on the double rooms were also a bit heavy and could be hard to open and shut, at least for a kid. To me they were cozy due to the duplexing of the single rooms but I remember hearing some people complaining about them being claustrophobic.

Due to the layout of the double slumbercoach passengers in some of those rooms slept with their head right alongside the toilet, which not everybody thought was awesome since it transmitted some noise (and was also a toilet). Overall I would say that an Amtrak otaku would find a ride in a slumbercoach very unique and interesting in the 1990's but as a fan and someone who wants Amtrak to have as many fans as possible I am glad they are retired. They were noisy and that defeats the purpose of a sleeping car in my opinion. The air conditioners also had a tough time keeping 20 compartments chilled in the Florida summer. Slumbercoach tickets were quite a deal, however, and those spaces always sold out quickly, at least on the Florida trains.

The 10-6 sleepers on the other hand, were a different story. Have ridden in roomettes on both the Lake Shore Limited and the Night Owl. They had a distinctly more first class feel than the slumbercoaches (which were actually not first class accommodations, but I digress). Even in their dotage, you could still tell you were in what used to be a Pullman car- they were smooth and quiet and solid, right up to the end, and I do not recall ever feeling stuffy in a 10-6. Compared to a slumbercoach bunk, the roomette bed seemed to be a bit softer but most importantly the absence of rattles and road noise made it much easier to sleep soundly.

One other thing I remember about the Heritage sleepers for sure was that they were stinky! Walking alongside one on the outside was like walking by a port-a-potty because of the non-retention toilets. You could also see bits of toilet paper on the tracks sometimes.


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## Skyline (Mar 26, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Yes, Americans are so busy, never relaxing even when on vacation. When supposedly on vacation how many feel the need to check their messages and make and take phone calls. At a recent function, I noticed that everyone under 50 had their cell phone on the table, in their lap, or in their hand in use. Some could barely eat, carry on conversation, etc. Taking the train is so slow for these people. See the beauty of this country is boring and unproductive.They can barely take the time to fly, complaining bitterly at slightest delay. They have schedulers for each of their children so they can schedule 15-30 minutes each day to be with these children, keeping the kids busy with one activity after another.
> 
> Yes, looking at train travel in the 50's and 60's everyone was in formal business attire, but i think that the great customer service in part had to be at that level, so with more causal dress, customer service seems to have suffered. I do not enjoy a coat and tie, but sometimes I think I would endure the discomfort just to have that customer service level again.


I agree with your first paragraph entirely and the chronology in the second, but not the cause-and-effect. Are you saying because people started wearing t-shirts, jeans and shorts while traveling that OBS personnel intentionally stopped giving a high level of service? Surely there are more plausible reasons...like lowered expectations and training from management, lowered workplace morale issues, larger workloads at times, less tipping these days, etc.

Personally, I don't know how all those travelers from yesteryear kept their fine clothes looking so fresh. The way they had to be transported, stored on board, and the tight spaces to change clothes in had to make that very difficult. Yet most photos from the era show "dashing." I'm glad not to need to worry about it, just relax in everyday clothes.


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## Skyline (Mar 26, 2018)

Northbound98 said:


> I grew up in the '80s and '90s so I guess I am one of the last generations that got to ride in Heritage Fleet 10-6's and Slumbercoaches in their final miles.
> 
> As I recall the Slumbercoaches I rode on were ex-CB&Q and ex-C&O because they had the 24-8 layout, so no ex-NYC cars. They had a lot of what appeared to be fiberglass and formica on the interiors and these rigid materials liked to rattle especially when the train was moving at high speed. The sliding doors on the double rooms were also a bit heavy and could be hard to open and shut, at least for a kid. To me they were cozy due to the duplexing of the single rooms but I remember hearing some people complaining about them being claustrophobic.
> 
> ...



I came along right after Amtrak Day in 1971, and there were numerous opportunities while a young railfan to book a Slumbercoach. It was either that or coach on my budget then. It was a great day to be travelling on a 14-day $150 railpass and be able to upgrade at the last minute (couldn't reserve a sleeper in advance if on a railpass) to a $15 slumbercoach! I wish we still had both the inexpensive all-you-can-ride railpass AND 21st century versions of slumbercoaches.


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## railiner (Mar 26, 2018)

Northbound98 said:


> I grew up in the '80s and '90s so I guess I am one of the last generations that got to ride in Heritage Fleet 10-6's and Slumbercoaches in their final miles.
> 
> As I recall the Slumbercoaches I rode on were ex-CB&Q and ex-C&O because they had the 24-8 layout, so no ex-NYC cars. They had a lot of what appeared to be fiberglass and formica on the interiors and these rigid materials liked to rattle especially when the train was moving at high speed. The sliding doors on the double rooms were also a bit heavy and could be hard to open and shut, at least for a kid. To me they were cozy due to the duplexing of the single rooms but I remember hearing some people complaining about them being claustrophobic.
> 
> ...


Welcome to AU!

Agree that the "lower level" duplex single slumbercoach rooms were a bit claustrophobic, compared to the "upper level" duplex rooms....those that cared, and were in the know, booked accordingly, if possible....

If someone slept with their head next to the toilet in any slumbercoach room, they were facing the "wrong way", IIRC. I agree that the rooms had a lot of pink fiberglass in their construction, but don't seem to recall them being particularly noisy or rattling. And yes, the rolled up foam mattresses were very thin when compared to the thick, sprung mattresses in the FC roomettes.


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## Northbound98 (Mar 26, 2018)

railiner said:


> Welcome to AU!
> 
> Agree that the "lower level" duplex single slumbercoach rooms were a bit claustrophobic, compared to the "upper level" duplex rooms....those that cared, and were in the know, booked accordingly, if possible....
> 
> If someone slept with their head next to the toilet in any slumbercoach room, they were facing the "wrong way", IIRC. I agree that the rooms had a lot of pink fiberglass in their construction, but don't seem to recall them being particularly noisy or rattling. And yes, the rolled up foam mattresses were very thin when compared to the thick, sprung mattresses in the FC roomettes.


The rattling may well have been due to track condition (this was CSX between MIA and WAS in 1993). I have always felt that a proper "tourist class" sleeper accommodation is sorely needed on Amtrak now that the slumbercoaches are history. Open sections seem to be the most practical option, and I think they would be incredibly popular, especially on transcontinental trains. That is essentially what a Superliner Roomette is I guess, minus a closet and a door.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 27, 2018)

Skyline said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, Americans are so busy, never relaxing even when on vacation. When supposedly on vacation how many feel the need to check their messages and make and take phone calls. At a recent function, I noticed that everyone under 50 had their cell phone on the table, in their lap, or in their hand in use. Some could barely eat, carry on conversation, etc. Taking the train is so slow for these people. See the beauty of this country is boring and unproductive.They can barely take the time to fly, complaining bitterly at slightest delay. They have schedulers for each of their children so they can schedule 15-30 minutes each day to be with these children, keeping the kids busy with one activity after another.
> ...


I didn't mean the change in clothes made the difference, but as the clothes were changing, so were the standards for other things like customer service. To me it just seams like society as a whole was evolving to be less formal, less customer oriented, less concerned about others. Maybe it is just me.


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## railiner (Mar 27, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Skyline said:
> 
> 
> > Lonestar648 said:
> ...


It's not just you....join the "Born Too Late" Club....


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## railiner (Mar 27, 2018)

Northbound98 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to AU!
> ...


I think it would be better to have the doors, as they are, rather than mess with curtains, like the old open section's had....

What they could do, is outfit a Superliner with an all economy room ("Roomette") configuration....no deluxe bedrooms....and no "extra's" included. That would add maybe 10 more roomettes to the car, for a total of 24 Roomettes, 1 Family Room, and 1 Handicap Room=52 Adult and 2 Child Berths per car...?


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 27, 2018)

Or for ultimate in cramming people in go to the Russian standard. You can fit 56 in a third class sleeper.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 27, 2018)

As far as revenue, note that many times the Bedrooms bring twice or more of a Roomette, so doubling the Roomettes would still bring the same amount of revenue. Next, could the SCA manage the bed changing, including the changing of the sheets for a sold out car? Would costs be equal if revenue was near equal, thus carrying more passengers. I think the idea would be great.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 27, 2018)

Maglev said:


> When I rode CN's _Super Continental _from Montreal to Vancouver, I had the lower berth in an open section. The car was smooth-sided, and had I think six sections, three or four bedrooms, and six roomettes (that seems like too many rooms to fit in a car, maybe my memory is not correct).......


'A '6-6-4'....and a common sleeper configuration on CN and well into the VIA era. These were the 'Green' series cars built by Pullman Standard in the big CN order of 1954 and used to equip the new Super Continental' when launched in 1955. The more expensive Bedrooms were in the centre of the car with the Sections on one end and the Roomettes on the other.

Here's 'Green Hill' on the Ocean at Truro, NS in 1974.


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## jis (Mar 27, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Or for ultimate in cramming people in go to the Russian standard. You can fit 56 in a third class sleeper.


56 is a pretty low number for a lower class sleeper.

The 3 Tier Sleepers both AC and non-AC in India can fit 72, 9 bays of 8 each - 3x2 in the bay and 2 on the walkway side of the bay. And as far as sleeping comfort goes, they are not too shabby. Similar to 6 berth couchettes in Europe in the bay, and 2 berths for each bay on the walkway side.

The more affluent who don;t want to spring for AC First which has compartments, usually spring for the AC 2 Tier Sleepers which come with thick curtains for each berth. These can hold 9 bays of 6 per bay that is 54.

One Railway Minister tried to make an ultra dense 9 bays of 9 per bay holding 81 per car work, but the customers revolted and that did not get deployed very broadly.


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## cpotisch (Mar 27, 2018)

railiner said:


> Northbound98 said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


I’ve thought about this quite a bit myself, actually. On routes with lower demand/prestige, a roomette only car I think would work quite well. Think CONO or TE. The former is very short, and doesn’t have very good equipment or ridership, so I think most passengers don’t want the big, fancy bedroom. The TE also does not have much in the way of scenery or ridership, so I think more of a focus on the ‘economy’ options would make sense.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 27, 2018)

New Orleans isn't a big tourist destination! I think a lot of people would disagree with that statement. It's one of the prime tourist destinations in this country.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 27, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> New Orleans isn't a big tourist destination! I think a lot of people would disagree with that statement. It's one of the prime tourist destinations in this country.


This!( and you'd be surprised about my Home Train,the Texas Eagle, most trains have the Bedrooms occupied, especially on #421/#422 days!)


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## jis (Mar 27, 2018)

I have this impression that New Orleans basically exists in its current form because of Conventions and Tourism. That is one of its biggest business sectors at this time. Quoting from the Wikipedia entry on New Orleans, which further refers to Louisiana Department of Culture, Recreation and Tourism:



> Tourism is another staple of the city's economy. Perhaps more visible than any other sector, New Orleans' tourist and convention industry is a $5.5 billion industry that accounts for 40 percent of city tax revenues. In 2004, the hospitality industry employed 85,000 people, making it the city's top economic sector as measured by employment.[128] New Orleans also hosts the World Cultural Economic Forum (WCEF).


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## cpotisch (Mar 27, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > New Orleans isn't a big tourist destination! I think a lot of people would disagree with that statement. It's one of the prime tourist destinations in this country.
> ...


What I’m saying is that if those trains could use a bit more capacity sometimes, it might not make sense to add even more bedrooms, if they could instead add 10 roomettes. The CONO sometimes operates with two sleepers, and it is very uncommon that I see the bedrooms sold out. Whereas the roomettes fill up pretty often. I’m not advocating for a route to stop offering bedrooms altogether, just that it might make sense in some cases to get 10 extra roomettes, instead of five extra bedrooms.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 27, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > MikefromCrete said:
> ...


Eliminating Bedrooms that sell out most of the time for additional Roomettes doesn't make revenue sense. Maybe a few additional passengers, but no real benefit. An additional car makes more sense revenue and passenger wise during the busy times if a car was available for each consist.


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## chakk (Mar 28, 2018)

Intentionally booked an upper berth on The Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto 3 yrs ago to check another off my bucket list. Most comfortable mattress experienced on a train in more

than 45 years.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## railiner (Mar 28, 2018)

I wouldn't book an Upper for that long of a trip, primarily because the passenger holding the Upper is assigned the backwards-facing seat, during the day. It would be okay for just an overnite trip, but on a transcontinental? I would prefer to see where I am going, rather than where I've been....


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## CoachSlumber (Mar 28, 2018)

railiner said:


> When I lived in Denver, in the 70's and 80's, I used to take the train back to New York once or twice a year on vacations As a station employee, I got to know the crews pretty well, and leaving Denver, they would "take care of me"....
> 
> They would let me ride in the trans-coach-dorm, which was not used for passenger's, off-season. So I had 40 seats to myself. I would turn the front pair around, and raise all four legrests, to create a nice 'bed'. And they would give me a blanket and pillow. In addition, they let me use the nice big crew shower on the lower level, which was appreciated, as I would often work that train, right up until departure time, to extend my vacation a day.
> 
> ...


My first time riding the Amtrak Broadway in the '70s I got one of those bonus rooms. But I was always happy with any slumbercoach room--such a deal, especially for a college student.


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## dlagrua (Mar 28, 2018)

Lots of talk about the slumber coach that held 40 beds mostly in smaller rooms. Here are pictures of what a single Slumbercoach/ duplex sleeper roomette was like. It is basic but it was a very affordable option on overnight routes.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/40366132944/in/dateposted-public/

.https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/40366132094/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/27202763368/in/dateposted-public/


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## railiner (Mar 28, 2018)

Great photo's, thanks for posting them!

It appears that the ones showing the bed in place, is a "lower", and the one with the bed stowed, is an "upper".

Furthermore, it appears that my memory failed me....apparently the toilet (under the padded 'seat') is actually at the head end of the bed, not the foot, as I stated earlier.

When you raised that padded lid, there was a side piece that raised with it, to shield the bed from 'spray'.... I know...too much information....


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## chakk (Mar 29, 2018)

railiner said:


> I wouldn't book an Upper for that long of a trip, primarily because the passenger holding the Upper is assigned the backwards-facing seat, during the day. It would be okay for just an overnite trip, but on a transcontinental? I would prefer to see where I am going, rather than where I've been....


I forgot to mention that I spent less than three hours of the journey sitting in the assigned rear-facing seat. The rest of the time was spent eating meals in the diner or riding in the dome observation car.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 29, 2018)

chakk said:


> Intentionally booked an upper berth on The Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto 3 yrs ago to check another off my bucket list. Most comfortable mattress experienced on a train in more
> 
> than 45 years.


Don’t think I could handle an Upper Berth. I have to be able to roll up the blind at 3am to see where we’re at! (even flying......it’s always a window seat for me!)


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## dlagrua (Mar 29, 2018)

railiner said:


> Great photo's, thanks for posting them!
> 
> It appears that the ones showing the bed in place, is a "lower", and the one with the bed stowed, is an "upper".
> 
> ...


Sure seems like that's the case. Many don't realize it but the rooms were staggered high and low and with the bed down about 1/3 of your body was in an alcove. As tight as it was there was a wide chair and a bed for overnight trips. It allowed rail passengers an inexpensive.travel option . The design was probably discontinued due to the two steps up from the hall to the upper room and because the car had over 30 toilets and sinks, all of which emptied onto the tracks. All of this was before my time but I would gladly have slept in one of these. Picture's were taken at the Illinois Railroad Museum of a former Northern Pacific North Coast Ltd car.


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## RPC (Mar 29, 2018)

Yeah, it's kind of weird seeing a car you rode in revenue service in a museum! The "upper" single slumbercoach rooms were the best: plenty of room for luggage, you didn't have to stow the bed to use the toilet, a nice big window all to yourself...


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## Gulfwind2 (Mar 29, 2018)

I agree that the slumbercoaches were a great idea for their time, but there couldn't possibly be a modern iteration of that idea considering how many of today's travelers are obese.


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## GBNorman (Mar 29, 2018)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Dont think I could handle an Upper Berth. I have to be able to roll up the blind at 3am to see where were at! (even flying......its always a window seat for me!)


First Mr. VIA Fan, relating to rail travel, the "Rolling Tenement" Upper Berth probably likely brought about the "postwar crop" of train haters (my Father one of such) as did anything within the control of the railroads. Think of it ringing the Porter to get out of the "coffin", the community washrooms, the Jack Benny skits of dressing in one, adding or cutting cars at Podunk, steam engines, and on and on.
No wonder as soon as there was a choice, it was curtains.

Now so far as flying, are we ever on the same page. Just like you if in Coach, I want a window seat well Aft for my "flightseeing". Even on WW overseas flights ("the longest day"), I'll have the shade up - I've seen icebergs, ships, and landfalls over Canada.

Last September, on an ORD-LGA flight, I chose to pay for a last minute upgrade to First. I got a "take it or leave it" asile seat. The guy in the window was already asleep, and all the shades in the A-320's cabin were drawn. It reminded me of being on a military aircraft with no idea which runway we were on to take off (and what to look for on departure).

Grrrrrr!

Well finally on approach this guy wakes and somehow sensed I was anxious to look out. So on a perfect day, I did get to see the Manhattan skyline on the approach to LGA Rwy 31. Then he says (he was a nice guy) "had I known you wanted to look out, I'd change seats". "But you wanted to sleep". "That's no problem, I can sleep anywhere".

The irony of it all.


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## railiner (Mar 29, 2018)

NS VIA Fan said:


> chakk said:
> 
> 
> > Intentionally booked an upper berth on The Canadian from Vancouver to Toronto 3 yrs ago to check another off my bucket list. Most comfortable mattress experienced on a train in more
> ...


Maybe the CN cars didn't have them, but IIRC, some of the open section Pullman cars did have a pair of tiny "porthole's", for Upper Berth passenger's to peek out from...

You can see them at the far end of this attachment....

https://www.google.com/search?q=pullman+car+upper+berth+windows&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS739US739&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=7m49zNg4KM4iVM%253A%252CsLYP0uK00DSM5M%252C_&usg=__tgO32Z2PJiB3-GTsIGZjhyg3wLE%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMxsGq-pHaAhVIMd8KHW8QAYEQ9QEIRzAG#imgrc=7m49zNg4KM4iVM:


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## zephyr17 (Mar 29, 2018)

Those portholes for the upper berth were always more the exception than the rule. The ex-CP Budd cars in use on the Canadian, the Manors and the occasional un-Prestiged Chateau, do not have them.


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## Skyline (Mar 30, 2018)

railiner said:


> I wouldn't book an Upper for that long of a trip, primarily because the passenger holding the Upper is assigned the backwards-facing seat, during the day. It would be okay for just an overnite trip, but on a transcontinental? I would prefer to see where I am going, rather than where I've been....


For people with balance issues like vertigo or worse, riding backwards can trigger miserable day(s).


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## chakk (Mar 30, 2018)

I didn’t mind riding backwards in my daytime seat for my Canadian upper berth.

Nor for my business class “nest” on a British Airways 787 from London to California. Although I must say the takeoff and climbout “felt” a bit odd.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## GBNorman (Mar 30, 2018)

The Upper Berth portholes were only on Pullman-Standard "prewar" Lightweight cars (even though the Erie "American--" car noted by Mr. Railiner was delivered during 1942).


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## Dakota 400 (Mar 30, 2018)

chakk said:


> I didn’t mind riding backwards in my daytime seat for my Canadian upper berth.
> 
> Nor for my business class “nest” on a British Airways 787 from London to California. Although I must say the takeoff and climbout “felt” a bit odd.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Thanks for this comment about your experience on a BA 787. I have wondered if I would be "pleased" with such an experience of being seated backwards. I'm going to avoid making a booking on a plane whose seating is so arranged.

One wonders what such a decision was made. And, by whom in what company/capacity?


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## railiner (Mar 31, 2018)

GBNorman said:


> The Upper Berth portholes were only on Pullman-Standard "prewar" Lightweight cars (even though the Erie "American--" car noted by Mr. Railiner was delivered during 1942).


Thanks for that information...

Seemed like a good idea, somewhat confirmed by the modern Viewliner design...so why didn't they continue that practice, with the few additional open section sleepers constructed after that time? Expense, I reckon....


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 31, 2018)

railiner said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> > The Upper Berth portholes were only on Pullman-Standard "prewar" Lightweight cars (even though the Erie "American--" car noted by Mr. Railiner was delivered during 1942).
> ...


That and generally the more Windows a car has the more it leaks.


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## railiner (Mar 31, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > GBNorman said:
> ...


That didn't discourage the introduction of domes and 'sun lounge' sleeper's a few years later.....


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 31, 2018)

That's true it didn't. But it is a very true factor the more Windows the more leaks. My worst car I've had was a dome it must have had twenty different places.


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## railiner (Apr 1, 2018)

I suppose those rubber seals are high maintenance items, and hard to obtain...when the UV from the sun dries them out, they don't seal too well....


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 1, 2018)

Exactly. When I was working the 9410 for a season I actually carried a box of them with me. And slowly but surely replaced all of them.


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## NYP2NFL01 (May 3, 2021)

I traveled in an Amtrak Heritage Bedroom on the northbound Crescent in May, 1994. By that time the rooms were shabby to say the least. However, I wanted to surprise my wife of 2 and a half years at the time with private accommodations on our return to New York. Our southbound journey to Charlotte, NC on the Carolinian in coach was anything but pleasant. When the occupants of the bedroom next to us left, the car attendant opened up the partition between the two rooms. So, we had a “suite” between DC and New York. Plus, we received hot coffee, orange juice and a regional newspaper from the room attendant. Real, friendly service. So, while the rooms were not in the best state of repair, the service received was top-notch!


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## Bob Dylan (May 3, 2021)

Since I'm old ( started riding Trains in 1944 even if I don't remember, LOL), I've traveled in pretty much every kind of equipment Railroads have had on the Rails since then.

Honestly my favorite Sleeping Car rooms on Heritage Sleepers,when traveling by myself, were the Slumber Coaches and the Sections( Bottom Bunk).

By the time Amtrak took over in 1971, lots of the Rainbow Cars were pretty much Worn out and Shabby.( similar to the tired Viewliner Is and Superliner IIs)

The exceptions were the Santa Fe and Southern Cars, since they were still running their own Trains and still had pride in their Rail Roads.

My favorite Cars were the Domes, the Parlor/Lounge Cars and the Diners, which still served Real Food prepared and Served by Professionals.( sadly all these folks are long retired and gone ).


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## railiner (May 3, 2021)

Thanks for bringing back this three year old thread...I read and enjoyed all of it....


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## jiml (May 3, 2021)

railiner said:


> Thanks for bringing back this three year old thread...I read and enjoyed all of it....


Did the same. The 10-6's were the staple of my early Amtrak travel.


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## MrMattyMatt (May 3, 2021)

Sadly, I never got the opportunity to travel in a Heritage Bedroom/Roomette sleeping car, but I did do a Chicago - NTC and back run in a Slumbercoach. I had an "upper" slumbercoach and was amazing at how everything was included in the tiny space and I never felt the least bit claustrophobic. I slept really well aside from waking up once hearing my neighbor snoring below me through the walls. During the daytime, I spent most of my time in my girlfriend's "double" slumbercoach which is quite similar to today's Roomette. She was sharing it with her 6 year old son and the three of us, two adults and one child didn't feel cramped in it. I wish they would make a more modern Slumbercoach as it was quite a good product IMO


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## Cal (May 3, 2021)

Heritage sleepers were gone before I was born.


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## PaTrainFan (May 3, 2021)

I was fortunate enough to ride in "heritage" sleepers several times as a child and young teenager, pre-Amtrak. While I am a Superliner fan and am warming to Viewliners, the older sleepers can't be beat in terms of design, comfort and practicality. This is why I pine for a return voyage on The Canadian, some 33 years since the last one.


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## Seaboard92 (May 3, 2021)

The roomettes are really an amazing fit of engineering. I really love those really small sinks.


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## Mailliw (May 3, 2021)

I hope one day I get a chance to ride overnight on VIA; it's amazing how long they've kept their heritage sleepers in service.


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## Willbridge (May 4, 2021)

MrMattyMatt said:


> Sadly, I never got the opportunity to travel in a Heritage Bedroom/Roomette sleeping car, but I did do a Chicago - NTC and back run in a Slumbercoach. I had an "upper" slumbercoach and was amazing at how everything was included in the tiny space and I never felt the least bit claustrophobic. I slept really well aside from waking up once hearing my neighbor snoring below me through the walls. During the daytime, I spent most of my time in my girlfriend's "double" slumbercoach which is quite similar to today's Roomette. She was sharing it with her 6 year old son and the three of us, two adults and one child didn't feel cramped in it. I wish they would make a more modern Slumbercoach as it was quite a good product IMO


I never had the opportunity to ride in a Slumbercoach, but they were popular enough that the NP _Mainstreeter_ carried ONLY a Slumbercoach in later years.


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## jpakala (May 6, 2021)

In 1956 we rode in the Dakota 400 parlor car just from Rochester to Mankato, MN (where it was replaced by a sleeping car, but we road in a coach on to Brookings, SD). The parlor car had a drawing room as well. In the 1960s we rode Milwaukee Road's train from Chicago to Sioux Falls, SD named the Arrow and we had a bedroom. Half of the next car was dining and half was the rotating parlor car chairs which as sleeping car passengers we could enjoy, though we were the only users apart from a conductor and assistant for a while. The bedroom had a sofa-seat plus a nice armchair that folded up and went under the lower berth which folded out of the wall as the back of the sofa-seat folded downward just as in the roomettes & the beds were along the wall with the window. In 1967 I took the CP Canadian from Winnipeg to Vancouver and wished my upper berth had the little windows at each end. By day I sat in the dome almost all the time except for the great dining car meals.


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## Willbridge (May 6, 2021)

On behalf of my 98-year old father -- who had a lot of experience with open section sleeping cars -- I'll mention one problem that he still recalls. He was on the SP's set-out sleeper at Eugene, awaiting the trip to Portland in the _Rogue River. _(The sleeper came from Coos Bay, but had a long layover in Eugene.) Another passenger was snoring very loudly, so much so that mutterings from other sections could be heard through the curtains. Finally one of the passengers grabbed a pillow and threw it into the loud snorer's berth. The offender snuffled and rolled over and everyone else could get some sleep.

One advantage of a standard sleeping car (12 sections, 1 drawing room) is that if a car was booked for a group they could socialize during the day and/or move to the side of the train with the best scenery. In 1974 my Japanese tour retailers were disappointed when CN retired the pool of extra heavyweights that had been available for Vancouver, BC <> Jasper.


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## MrMattyMatt (May 8, 2021)

Doesn't Via rail Canada still offer open sections on some trains?


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## Bob Dylan (May 8, 2021)

MrMattyMatt said:


> Doesn't Via rail Canada still offer open sections on some trains?


Yep, the Canadian, but they currently are not bookable, only Roomettes ( Cabins for 1) and Bedrooms, due to COVID Restrictions.( the Domes Up top are also off Limits)


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## Mailliw (May 8, 2021)

Also VIA doesn't have all section cars anymore; just three sections (6 berths) per HEP sleeping car.


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## Willbridge (May 8, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> Also VIA doesn't have all section cars anymore; just three sections (6 berths) per HEP sleeping car.


And that's one of the problems for Japanese tour groups. The retailers didn't sell three or four different price levels; they sold one level based on the average cost of the space and then the tour escort had to sort out who got to sleep where. The old 12 sec, 1 dr cars were easier for that reason, aside from the social and scenic advantages.

I don't know why the northern lines in the US and the Canadian lines were particularly enamored of offering so many types of space in a single car but my surmise is that they expected to cascade them down to secondary trains with only one or two sleepers when they would be replaced by newer cars.

When we discuss offering more types of sleeping car spaces it is a good idea to recall that when Amtrak started up they were proud of reducing the number of types of space. Aside from some staff at firms that specialized, few travel agents by the 1970's could tell the difference between a compartment and a bedroom. The public knew even less.


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## jiml (May 9, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> When we discuss offering more types of sleeping car spaces it is a good idea to recall that when Amtrak started up they were proud of reducing the number of types of space. Aside from some staff at firms that specialized, few travel agents by the 1970's could tell the difference between a compartment and a bedroom. The public knew even less.


The one great mistake Amtrak made was shelving the cars that had drawing rooms since they were essentially the Family Bedroom of the era. The problem was of course the diverse configurations of the remainder of the inherited cars.


Willbridge said:


> The old 12 sec, 1 dr cars were easier for that reason, aside from the social and scenic advantages.


Think how well a car like that would address some of the recent concerns about lower-cost accommodation on trains, as well as a larger bedroom in the single-level fleet. Again I assume consistency and quantity would be a problem.


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## railiner (May 9, 2021)

I was looking around the web, and learned something new today...there were some cars where you could book a "drawing room suite" that could sleep as many as 6 adults....(two drawing rooms with a connecting door). Never knew that.


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## 20th Century Rider (May 9, 2021)

Memories of my first ride on what is now the Texas Eagle... from the old Missouri Pacific service... from St. Louis to Laredo, Texas... for the thrill of walking across the boarder and purchasing some cheep tequila to bring back... and also to drink some along the way.  This was in the early 1970's after Amtrak had just begun.

I was in a roomette which was fairly clean as I remember... and brought along some cold chicken to enjoy for the first meal. Enjoyed the remainder of the meals in the restaurant car. Meals for sleepers were not included in those days.

What I most remember about that trip was the excitement of getting on a train to go a long distance... and to be able to walk into Mexico to look around. Remembering staying in a small hotel in Laredo, then getting on the train to come back.

Biggest regret was not continuing on the Azteca which to Mexico City.

The pics below are as close as I could find on Google. I did take some slides... but they are long gone now.


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## 20th Century Rider (May 9, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Memories of my first ride on what is now the Texas Eagle... from the old Missouri Pacific service... from St. Louis to Laredo, Texas... for the thrill of walking across the boarder and purchasing some cheep tequila to bring back... and also to drink some along the way.  This was in the early 1970's after Amtrak had just begun.
> 
> I was in a roomette which was fairly clean as I remember... and brought along some cold chicken to enjoy for the first meal. Enjoyed the remainder of the meals in the restaurant car. Meals for sleepers were not included in those days.
> 
> ...


The Azteca Eagle was synced with the Texas Eagle. It would have been an absolute dream to continue on down to Mexico City... and to immerse in the culture! There's lots of lore and historical information on the Azteca.


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## toddinde (May 9, 2021)

jiml said:


> The one great mistake Amtrak made was shelving the cars that had drawing rooms since they were essentially the Family Bedroom of the era. The problem was of course the diverse configurations of the remainder of the inherited cars.
> 
> Think how well a car like that would address some of the recent concerns about lower-cost accommodation on trains, as well as a larger bedroom in the single-level fleet. Again I assume consistency and quantity would be a problem.


I agree, but the sections have problems. The uppers frequently don’t sell. The couchette would be something to try. All berths in a couchette are priced the same. The density per car is higher as well.


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## jiml (May 9, 2021)

railiner said:


> I was looking around the web, and learned something new today...there were some cars where you could book a "drawing room suite" that could sleep as many as 6 adults....(two drawing rooms with a connecting door). Never knew that.


New one on me too. I knew you could combine a drawing room with a standard bedroom - at least on CP/VIA.


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## Mailliw (May 9, 2021)

toddinde said:


> I agree, but the sections have problems. The uppers frequently don’t sell. The couchette would be something to try. All berths in a couchette are priced the same. The density per car is higher as well.


A modern section sleeper could make the uppers less claustrophobic by adding windows & more headroom. And of course there'd be outlets galore. The drawing room would be replaced by an ADA bedroom and without the large men & women's dressing rooms I think you could fit 16 or 18 sections.


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## jpakala (May 9, 2021)

In 1964 we had on of the 4 bedrooms in "Regal Elm" which also had 4 compartments and 2 drawing rooms (the latter in the center for smoother ride). A mother with 2 grade school boys and a junior high girl had the drawing room with a door between it and a compartment which the girl had. I don't know that drawing rooms had such adjacent bedrooms with doors between the two, at least in the 4-4-2 Pullmans.


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## MrMattyMatt (May 9, 2021)

I get that the layout was different between a bedroom and compartment, but what really is the difference? Were compartments just a bit larger?

Also, a modern section car would need showers plus I could see the debate about who gets to sit facing forward vs backward in the daytime configuration being more of an issue in modern times.


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## Bob Dylan (May 9, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Memories of my first ride on what is now the Texas Eagle... from the old Missouri Pacific service... from St. Louis to Laredo, Texas... for the thrill of walking across the boarder and purchasing some cheep tequila to bring back... and also to drink some along the way.  This was in the early 1970's after Amtrak had just begun.
> 
> I was in a roomette which was fairly clean as I remember... and brought along some cold chicken to enjoy for the first meal. Enjoyed the remainder of the meals in the restaurant car. Meals for sleepers were not included in those days.
> 
> ...


As one who had many trips on the old Mopac Texas Eagle, as well as the Azteca, I can state that both were a real joy to ride! 

My First Dome Car ride was on the Eagle, and the trips from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City on the Azteca are Great Memories in my Golden Years!


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## Bob Dylan (May 9, 2021)

MrMattyMatt said:


> I get that the layout was different between a bedroom and compartment, but what really is the difference? Were compartments just a bit larger?
> 
> Also, a modern section car would need showers plus I could see the debate about who gets to sit facing forward vs backward in the daytime configuration being more of an issue in modern times.


Yes, Compartments were larger, and Drawing Rooms also, plus they had 3 Beds as opposed to 2 in Bedrooms.( all had enclosed Bathrooms but Not Showers)

I cant remember the #, but in the Regular Park Cars( not the Fancy Premium Version) there is a Drawing Room that's Larger than the other Rooms, and the Train Chief has occupied it on my Canadian Trips.( the Conductor on VIA Trains rides in the Cab with the Engineer)

As for Sections in Daytime Configuration, the Rule is that the Bottom Bunk gets the Forward Facing Seat,and the Top the rear facing one since Bottoms cost more!


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## railiner (May 9, 2021)

jiml said:


> New one on me too. I knew you could combine a drawing room with a standard bedroom - at least on CP/VIA.





jpakala said:


> In 1964 we had on of the 4 bedrooms in "Regal Elm" which also had 4 compartments and 2 drawing rooms (the latter in the center for smoother ride). A mother with 2 grade school boys and a junior high girl had the drawing room with a door between it and a compartment which the girl had. I don't know that drawing rooms had such adjacent bedrooms with doors between the two, at least in the 4-4-2 Pullmans.





MrMattyMatt said:


> I get that the layout was different between a bedroom and compartment, but what really is the difference? Were compartments just a bit larger?
> 
> Also, a modern section car would need showers plus I could see the debate about who gets to sit facing forward vs backward in the daytime configuration being more of an issue in modern times.


I found this discussion in another forum, that explains some of the details...





__





Compartment vs. Bedroom






www.trainorders.com





Here's another...




__





Pullman bedrooms vs compartments? - RAILROAD.NET






railroad.net





Scroll down in this one, and click on 'Plan 9009', expand to full size, enlarge and look at the door between Drawing Rooms E&F


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## fdaley (May 9, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> A modern section sleeper could make the uppers less claustrophobic by adding windows & more headroom. And of course there'd be outlets galore. The drawing room would be replaced by an ADA bedroom and without the large men & women's dressing rooms I think you could fit 16 or 18 sections.



From our trips on the Canadian in recent years, I can attest that the section upper berth actually has quite a bit of headroom -- much, much better than a Superliner upper bunk. Although it was our teenage son who took the upper on the Canadian, I think I could have sat fully upright up there if I'd tried it, and I'm 5'10". The big drawback to me is no window, but our teenager thought it was great fun regardless. Also the mattresses on the VIA sections are the widest, most comfortable beds I've had on any train, and I've ridden about every Amtrak sleeper configuration including the heritage cars and slumbercoaches.


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## 20th Century Rider (May 9, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> As one who had many trips on the old Mopac Texas Eagle, as well as the Azteca, I can state that both were a real joy to ride!
> 
> My First Dome Car ride was on the Eagle, and the trips from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City on the Azteca are Great Memories in my Golden Years!


So... we'll have to get together some day over some Austin BBQ and beer ... want to hear all about that Azteca... one from the bucket list that's long gone. One of those reasons for... "Don't wait... do it now!"


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## railiner (May 10, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> One of those reasons for... "Don't wait... do it now!"


Reminds me of 1969, when the three roads running the original CZ in its newspaper ads concluded the ad with the advice to “ride it...while you can...”

The next year, it was gone (on the WP segment).


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## PaulM (May 11, 2021)

cpotisch said:


> Think CONO or TE. The former is very short, and doesn’t have very good equipment or ridership, ... The TE also does not have much in the way of scenery or ridership,...


This sounds like a corollary to the "Nobody rides trains anymore" rule.


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## MrMattyMatt (May 12, 2021)

I have another question about the Open Section accomodation. Was there a specific time when the beds were made up or was is done by request? Also for the morning switching it back to the daytime configuration. Was there a "wake up call" so to speak when everyone was expected to be up? I'm just thinking about it in terms of modern day habits and how it might be handled nowadays.


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## Seaboard92 (May 12, 2021)

MrMattyMatt said:


> I have another question about the Open Section accomodation. Was there a specific time when the beds were made up or was is done by request? Also for the morning switching it back to the daytime configuration. Was there a "wake up call" so to speak when everyone was expected to be up? I'm just thinking about it in terms of modern day habits and how it might be handled nowadays.



On VIA I believe they try to have them in day mode by Nine AM. Now I have seen them be down the entire day. I believe it is the discretion of the attendant.


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## MrMattyMatt (May 12, 2021)

I found this great link to a PDF of the "New Cascade" courtesy of Streamliner Memories which shows many of the "heritage" type rooms and car layouts


http://streamlinermemories.info/SP/SP50NewCascade.pdf


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## zephyr17 (May 12, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> On VIA I believe they try to have them in day mode by Nine AM. Now I have seen them be down the entire day. I believe it is the discretion of the attendant.


I've seen a lot sections on VIA left in night mode all the time from the first morning on. I am sure that is at the passengers' request. Although I do think if the Lower Berth and Upper Berth passengers are traveling separately and do not agree to leave them in night mode, the default is day mode during the day.

I doubt that practice would have been tolerated or been within social norms in the heyday of Pullman travel when open sections were the standard accommodation. Recall that Pullman's primary customers were business travelers.


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## jruff001 (May 12, 2021)

MrMattyMatt said:


> I found this great link to a PDF of the "New Cascade" courtesy of Streamliner Memories which shows many of the "heritage" type rooms and car layouts
> 
> 
> http://streamlinermemories.info/SP/SP50NewCascade.pdf


Great find!


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## The Commissioner (May 12, 2021)

I put a lot of miles in 10-6 Pullman cars in my youth on SAL, SCL, PRR, PC. Many of the posts in this thread bring back the memories and provide an accurate and complete description of the experience. The big difference between the sleeping car pre-Amtrak and today's version is the comfort of the bed. It all seems so pedestrian nowadays and maybe that's more perception than reality. But the comparison of value proposition with Pullman and the dining car experience of yesteryear compared to Amtrak is striking. As someone said, the first class accommodations were designed for the business traveler. I don't see business travelers in today's sleeping cars.

Like others in the thread, I too wish the Slumbercoach would be available. It meets the needs of privacy and horizontal bed. That's all I want.


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## Willbridge (May 12, 2021)

The Commissioner said:


> I put a lot of miles in 10-6 Pullman cars in my youth on SAL, SCL, PRR, PC. Many of the posts in this thread bring back the memories and provide an accurate and complete description of the experience. The big difference between the sleeping car pre-Amtrak and today's version is the comfort of the bed. It all seems so pedestrian nowadays and maybe that's more perception than reality. But the comparison of value proposition with Pullman and the dining car experience of yesteryear compared to Amtrak is striking. As someone said, the first class accommodations were designed for the business traveler. I don't see business travelers in today's sleeping cars.
> 
> Like others in the thread, I too wish the Slumbercoach would be available. It meets the needs of privacy and horizontal bed. That's all I want.


Most of your post is fine with me, but I meet business travelers on the overnight segments of long distance trains. In particular, LAX<>ABQ and DEN<>OMA. Presumably there'd be more with better schedule adherence.


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## Bob Dylan (May 12, 2021)

MrMattyMatt said:


> I have another question about the Open Section accomodation. Was there a specific time when the beds were made up or was is done by request? Also for the morning switching it back to the daytime configuration. Was there a "wake up call" so to speak when everyone was expected to be up? I'm just thinking about it in terms of modern day habits and how it might be handled nowadays.


The SCA on the Canadian still does it like in the old days, that is @ a certain time ( around 9pm on my rides/ during Breakfast in the morning) since they all have to be done @ the same time including putting up/taking down the Curtains, doing the ladders and bedding etc..


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## zephyr17 (May 12, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> The SCA on the Canadian still does it like in the old days, that is @ a certain time ( around 9pm on my rides/ during Breakfast in the morning) since they all have to be done @ the same time including putting up/taking down the Curtains, doing the ladders and bedding etc..


Well, apparently many leave them in night mode for sections where passengers request it. On every trip I've taken on the Canadian, at least one annually for about the last decade, there have been significant numbers of sections left in night mode all the time. They may do the ones they are going to do at the same time, but they appear not to force passengers to convert to day mode if both passengers in a given section don't want it.

Unlike some Amtrak SCAs, VIA attendants do not order passengers around. Also, bear in mind that, unlike Amtrak, they have actual supervision right there onboard.


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## Bob Dylan (May 12, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Well, apparently many leave them in night mode for sections where passengers request it. On every trip I've taken on the Canadian, at least one annually for about the last decade, there have been significant numbers of sections left in night mode all the time. They may do the ones they are going to do at the same time, but they appear not to force passengers to convert to day mode if both passengers in a given section don't want it.
> 
> Unlike some Amtrak SCAs, VIA attendants do not order passengers around. Also, bear in mind that, unlike Amtrak, they have actual supervision right there onboard.


I believe you, I've just never seen this done on the Canadian, or in Pre-Amtrak days when I started riding Trains with Pullmans.


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## zephyr17 (May 12, 2021)

I always ride in the off season. I do not know whether it is different in the summer when the train is a lot longer and the loads higher.

I travel in a roomette on the Canadian, btw. I want a door and electrical outlets.


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