# The pre Euro Tunnel train to Paris...



## caravanman (Nov 2, 2021)

Sad to have missed this, but pleased to avail of Eurostar nowadays!


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## Ziv (Nov 2, 2021)

What a brute! It always amazes me that the engineer (and the fireman or brakeman on the other side of the loco?) had such horrible visibility in some of the older locomotives. 
But this one looks like it could tow Victoria Station to Gare du Nord! LOL! I never got to ride on a CIdWL train, but they just seem like the old Europe to me, and I mean that in a very good way.


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## Asher (Nov 2, 2021)

Dining car photo


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## Asher (Nov 2, 2021)

j


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## cirdan (Nov 2, 2021)

Ziv said:


> What a brute! It always amazes me that the engineer (and the fireman or brakeman on the other side of the loco?) had such horrible visibility in some of the older locomotives.
> But this one looks like it could tow Victoria Station to Gare du Nord! LOL! I never got to ride on a CIdWL train, but they just seem like the old Europe to me, and I mean that in a very good way.



Oliver Bulleid was a bit of a lose cannon when it came it locomotive designs. But he was also a genius and designed with mathematical vision. 

All that boxwork around the boiler is actually cladding to improve its thermal efficiency, and also streamlining at the same time.

There were two high quality trains between London and Paris. The day train was the Golden Arrow / Fleche d'Or which was all Pullman. Passenger would change and catch the ferry and a different consist would pick them up on the other side. At times the Golden Arrow had through cars to other European destinations.

The night train was the Night Ferry. The entire consist was actually loaded onto the train ferry so as not to have to wake passengers and make them change. The train ferries otherwise only carried freight, this being the only passenger train ever to have used a train ferry from a British port. 

The Night Ferry was discontinued in the early 1980s when the CIWL cars were life expired and nobody wanted to pay or new ones. One car survives in the National Collection and is AFAIK presently on display in Shildon.

The Golden Arrow died a slower death, losing many of its perks over time and finally becoming a normal train like any other


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## Ziv (Nov 2, 2021)

I realize that todays Western world is a great deal more egalitarian, but everyone in this photo just seems to look a bit higher class than those on any form of transportation today. Heck, even the porter is better dressed than most of the people sitting in First Class on most of my flights...
And I am talking about the mode of dress, and perhaps the "posture", not the color of the characters. LOL!

On edit:
Rats, anumberone's platform photo didn't show on my post. I think I may have messed it up by trying to make it smaller. Let me try to put it back in...






anumberone said:


> View attachment 25324


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## jis (Nov 2, 2021)

The famous Merchant Navy Class Bulleid Pacifics of Southern Railway.



caravanman said:


> View attachment 25320
> 
> 
> Sad to have missed this, but pleased to avail of Eurostar nowadays!


I had traveled from London to Paris by train and ferry before Eurostars came about. It was London Victoria to Dover Western Docks, then ferry to Boulogne-sur-Mer and then train from there to Paris Gare du Nord. Quite an interesting journey that took what seemed like forever. But quite enjoyable. It was electric to Dover and AFAIR diesel in France, for what reason I don't recall.


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## cirdan (Nov 2, 2021)

jis said:


> I had traveled from London to Paris by train and ferry before Eurostars came about. It was London Victoria to Dover Western Docks, then ferry to Boulogne-sur-Mer and then then train from there to Paris Gare du Nord. Quite an interesting journey that took what seemed like forever. But quite enjoyable. It was electric to Dover and AFAIR diesel in France, for what reason I don't recall.



In the days of the Night Ferry the route was Dover to Dunkirk. I guess because Dunkirk was the only port that could land a train ferry. Daytime connections were mostly to Boulogne or Calais. The Calais line was electrified but the Boulogne line remained diesel worked until quite late. The fastest connection was by hovercraft which landed at Boulogne hoverport which had a train station of its own. From there you were whisked to Paris in one of the RTG / Turbotrains which were similar to Amtrak's Turboliners.


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## jis (Nov 2, 2021)

There was and I believe still is a train - ferry - train service connecting UK with the Netherlands. The ferry crossing is by Stena Lines today between Harwich to Hoek van Holland IIRC.

A "Boat Train" connecting to the ferry is run by Greater Anglia from London Liverpool Street. At the Netherlands end NS runs a connecting service from the port to Amsterdam Centraal. Unfortunately I have never had an opportunity to ride this, though I have actually ridden the through Eurostar service from London St. Pancras to Amsterdam Centraal.


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## caravanman (Nov 2, 2021)

jis said:


> There was and I believe still is a train - ferry - train service connecting UK with the Netherlands. The ferry crossing is by Stena Lines today between Harwich to Hoek van Holland IIRC.
> 
> A "Boat Train" connecting to the ferry is run by Greater Anglia from London Liverpool Street. At the Netherlands end NS runs a connecting service from the port to Amsterdam Centraal. Unfortunately I have never had an opportunity to ride this, though I have actually ridden the through Eurostar service from London St. Pancras to Amsterdam Centraal.



You are quite correct Jis, I have enjoyed this crossing myself a couple of times. The combined ticket is sold as the "Dutch Flyer", not to be confused with the flying dutchman!
Back when I worked for BR in the early 1970's the Boat Train was a big deal, our top link at Stratford depot. Diesel hauled, with slam door side corridor stock. Steam heated in winter. All very nostalgic. Last time I took the route, it was just an electric commuter train, no glamour at all!
One can travel from any Anglia station on the Dutch Flyer ticket, and the Netherlands ticket allows travel to any Dutch station. It is actually a Dutch all day pass, so one can use it for several rides!
Day crossings don't require a berth on the ferry, but for the night one a cabin is compulsory, at extra cost. (The combined train -ferry-train ticket including a night cabin, was around £85 last time, from memory...)
A similar service operates to Dublin, known as Rail-Sail...


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## cirdan (Nov 2, 2021)

Hasn't the rail station at Hoek van Holland (The Hook) been closed some years back and the line rebuilt as a metro? (The Hook is essentially a suburb of Rotterdam)

I remember the days when on arriving at The Hook you had a choice of international expresses lined up, going to destinations all across Europe. Having to catch a metro to Rotterdam Central and then changing to a train there is not quite the same and does make the journey more cumbersome.

Dover and Folkestone have both lost their dock stations so if you want to combine the train with a ferry today you either need to take a longish walk or catch a bus or use a taxi. The ferry companies are also not especially interested in working with the railways and combined tickets no longer exist on these routes AFAIK.

The ferry from Portsmouth to the Isle of Wight still connects directly with trains at both ends, and combined train ferry tickets are available. I think some of the routes to Ireland may still do that as well but I'm not sure. Otherwise that sort of thing is rare these days, in the UK that is. 

My favorite route to the continent was always the Dover to Oostende route, maybe because of childhood recollections. The ferry followed the Belgian coastline for a sizeable part of the trip which I found much more entertaining than striking straight out to sea as on other routes. Unfortunately this route is no longer operated. The station in Oostende was and still is a marvelous building.


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## JontyMort (Nov 2, 2021)

jis said:


> The famous Merchant Navy Class Bulleid Pacifics of Southern Railway.
> 
> 
> I had traveled from London to Paris by train and ferry before Eurostars came about. It was London Victoria to Dover Western Docks, then ferry to Boulogne-sur-Mer and then train from there to Paris Gare du Nord. Quite an interesting journey that took what seemed like forever. But quite enjoyable. It was electric to Dover and AFAIR diesel in France, for what reason I don't recall.


That would be right. I seem to recall that the lines to Boulogne and Calais weren’t electrified until about the time of the Channel Tunnel project. On the English side the electrification to the coast was done by about 1960 - it was (and is) third-rail, of course. Your journey from London to Dover would have been by EMU. The Night Ferry in the 1960s and 1970s would have been loco-hauled:



https://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/3/2/1/4321.1174752000.jpg



The third-rail locomotives were quite beefy for their size.


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## JontyMort (Nov 2, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Hasn't the rail station at Hoek van Holland (The Hook) been closed some years back and the line rebuilt as a metro?


That’s correct. The conversion isn’t complete yet, but they are definitely working on it.


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## caravanman (Nov 2, 2021)

When I last used the service, it was a normal local train link and change at Rotterdam. I think the lack of ferry foot passengers , just a handful, probably caused the line to be given over to a light rail system? Looks like a bus link at the present time?


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## JontyMort (Nov 2, 2021)

jis said:


> The famous Merchant Navy Class Bulleid Pacifics of Southern Railway.


As cirdan says elsewhere in the thread, Bulleid was something of a maverick, but you have to experiment. His Pacifics were fine machines, but the valve-gear wasn’t perfect, and they used more coal in consequence. Most of them were rebuilt in the 1950s, lasting until the end of steam in 1968. The rebuilt versions looked like this (caught “out of position” in York a couple of years back).


Before he went to the Southern, Bulleid was Gresley’s deputy at the LNER, a great partnership.


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## Palmland (Nov 2, 2021)

This discussion prompted me to pull my notes from a 1989 trip. We boarded the ‘Colonia Express’ in Cologne about 6pm. As I recall by the time we arrived at the Hook about 10pm there were few passengers but it was an easy walk to the Night Ferry and our cabin with 4 berths (ours sons first trip to Europe). We arrived Harwich at 6:45 and we’re in our way at 7:45 on the ‘Benjamin Britten’. London arrival was at 9. Travel was so easy with our Eurail pass.


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## cirdan (Nov 3, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> That would be right. I seem to recall that the lines to Boulogne and Calais weren’t electrified until about the time of the Channel Tunnel project. On the English side the electrification to the coast was done by about 1960 - it was (and is) third-rail, of course. Your journey from London to Dover would have been by EMU. The Night Ferry in the 1960s and 1970s would have been loco-hauled:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The electrification of the main lines into Kent was done as part of the BR modernization program. Initially BR wanted to electrify a whole range of main lines but the bean counters got in the way and ultimately only two projects got funded. One was the West Coast Main Line which was electrified with overhead AC at 50Hz, French style, and the other project was the Kent Coast line which was electrified with third rail DC to be compatible with the extensive commuter system emanating from the south of London.

With electrification most services went over to multiple unit trains of new designs, predominantly the 4-BEP and 4-CEP that were based on the earlier DC commuter trains already in use but provided a level of comfort more suitable for an inter city train such as more comfortable seats, and corridors that ran the length of the train rather than individual doors for every compartment. They were thus the flagships of the southern fleet until the even more advanced 4-REPs were introduced onto the Bournemouth line some years later. As the name 4-CEP suggests they were 4-car sets but could be combined into 8 or even 12 car trains. Because there were gangways through the ends of the units you could walk between units. They could also be coupled mixed with other unit types. On the boat trains they typically ran with one or several MLV motorized baggage cars attached. Some of these trains were still in service on that same line when the Channel Tunnel opened, albeit refurbished and modernized.

The rolling stock of the Night Ferry and Golden Arrow were not replaced at the time of electrification and these were thus pulled by Class 71 DC electric locomotives based in part on a Swiss design and built under license in Britain. In later years the more versatile Class 73 electro diesels would also be used on these trains.


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## cirdan (Nov 3, 2021)

Palmland said:


> This discussion prompted me to pull my notes from a 1989 trip. We boarded the ‘Colonia Express’ in Cologne about 6pm. As I recall by the time we arrived at the Hook about 10pm there were few passengers but it was an easy walk to the Night Ferry and our cabin with 4 berths (ours sons first trip to Europe). We arrived Harwich at 6:45 and we’re in our way at 7:45 on the ‘Benjamin Britten’. London arrival was at 9. Travel was so easy with our Eurail pass.



The Benjamin Britten had the rare distinction that it was the only UK train that ever earned the Euro City branding.


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## JontyMort (Nov 3, 2021)

cirdan said:


> With electrification most services went over to multiple unit trains of new designs, predominantly the 4-BEP and 4-CEP…
> 
> On the boat trains they typically ran with one or several MLV motorized baggage cars attached. Some of these trains were still in service on that same line when the Channel Tunnel opened, albeit refurbished and modernized.
> 
> The rolling stock of the Night Ferry and Golden Arrow were not replaced at the time of electrification and these were thus pulled by Class 71 DC electric locomotives based in part on a Swiss design and built under license in Britain. In later years the more versatile Class 73 electro diesels would also be used on these trains.


If I remember correctly, these were Buffet Electro-Pneumatic [Brake], Corridor Electro-Pneumatic, Restaurant Electro-Pneumatic, and there were also Vestibule and Gatwick (more luggage space) versions - 4-VEP and 4-VEG. When I started work in 1980, the South London commute was on EPB suburban stock or even 4-SUB - designed by Bulleid (to bring the thread back to him).

As you say, the boat trains were very distinctive with the motor luggage vans leading - and the extra 500 hp must have given the trains a bit more grunt. My morning train was often held at the flat junction at Herne Hill while one of these came through.

As well as the 73s, in later years the power was sometimes a diesel 33. As you suggest, the problem with the 71s was that - excellent machines though they were - they needed to stay on the juice.

One of the 73s is preserved at the National Railway Museum.


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## Deni (Nov 3, 2021)

I think there are only two places in Europe to still be able to ride a train onto a ferry (Germany-Denmark stopped in 2019). Italy mainland to Sicily, and Germany to Sweden. I really want to do that before those last two disappear.


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## jiml (Nov 3, 2021)

Deni said:


> I think there are only two places in Europe to still be able to ride a train onto a ferry (Germany-Denmark stopped in 2019). Italy mainland to Sicily, and Germany to Sweden. I really want to do that before those last two disappear.


Isn't Germany to Sweden via Copenhagen now a bridge as well?

Germany to Sweden by sleeper train : Snälltåget MAGICAL experience - YouTube


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## cirdan (Nov 3, 2021)

jiml said:


> Isn't Germany to Sweden via Copenhagen now a bridge as well?
> 
> Germany to Sweden by sleeper train : Snälltåget MAGICAL experience - YouTube



Indeed. There used to be a direct sleeper train from Berlin to Sweden that went via the Sassnitz to Trelleborg train ferry (Summer only). This continued even after the Malmo to Copenhagen bridge opened. It was only really killed very recently due to safety concerns over the ability to evacuate passengers from the sleeper cars in case of a maritime emergency. It has now been replaced by a sleeper train that goes the long way round using the land route via Denmark.


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## Ziv (Nov 3, 2021)

Paul Lucas has a really good video of the Milan to Palermo Train/Ferry trip. The part I liked is that a single occupancy sleeper compartment was just €89! 

The part where the train is shunted onto the ferry starts at 20:35. Nice insider tip for viewing at 21:02.



Deni said:


> I think there are only two places in Europe to still be able to ride a train onto a ferry (Germany-Denmark stopped in 2019). Italy mainland to Sicily, and Germany to Sweden. I really want to do that before those last two disappear.


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## Deni (Nov 3, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Indeed. There used to be a direct sleeper train from Berlin to Sweden that went via the Sassnitz to Trelleborg train ferry (Summer only). This continued even after the Malmo to Copenhagen bridge opened. It was only really killed very recently due to safety concerns over the ability to evacuate passengers from the sleeper cars in case of a maritime emergency. It has now been replaced by a sleeper train that goes the long way round using the land route via Denmark.


Ah, I didn't know that one had recently ceased as well. So now we're down to one I guess. I sent a client a couple years ago on the Sicily one, I really need to do that. I would guess that maybe that one will stick around? Hopefully?


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## JontyMort (Nov 3, 2021)

Deni said:


> Ah, I didn't know that one had recently ceased as well. So now we're down to one I guess. I sent a client a couple years ago on the Sicily one, I really need to do that. I would guess that maybe that one will stick around? Hopefully?


I would think the Strait of Messina one will be around for the foreseeable future. Every so often the bridge or tunnel idea gets revived, but in that volcanic/earthquake region the question “what could possibly go wrong?” is particularly pertinent.


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## cirdan (Nov 3, 2021)

Deni said:


> I think there are only two places in Europe to still be able to ride a train onto a ferry (Germany-Denmark stopped in 2019). Italy mainland to Sicily, and Germany to Sweden. I really want to do that before those last two disappear.



Are there any still active elsewhere in the world?


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## jiml (Nov 3, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Are there any still active elsewhere in the world?


There was one in Norway IIRC, however I think the Sicilian one is the last remaining. There are still several cases of ferries connected to rail on either end - the Hoek one being a prime example. Several YouTubers have covered their experience with them and I would definitely like to try a few out. I tried to build the one from Holyhead into my upcoming Ireland itinerary, but it is so much cheaper to fly to/from Ireland than the UK that it wasn't practical to go either way.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 20, 2021)

Took the Night Ferry back in 1977. As a penniless student freshly graduated from my masters degree at university, I could not avail myself of the Wagon Lits sleeper but rode standard class with what seemed like 500 French students returning home. The usual EMUs to Dover then around midnight we all traipsed onto the ferry for the ride to Dunquerque where I boarded a train that took us to Lille where the car I was in was detached and left in the station for a Brussels bound train that took me to Metz where I changed for a train to Kaiserslautern Germany my ultimate destination.


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## Willbridge (Nov 20, 2021)

I made a round-trip from Berlin on the Harwich<>Hoek route in 1970, overnight both ways for a rainy, cold week in London and Brighton. My Army partner and his wife had a different itinerary and they went west via Harwich and returned via the _Night Ferry _and Paris. And I think one reason for Dunquerque as the French port is that there was a Brussels sleeper. There are You Tube videos with the _Golden Arrow/Flèche d'Or_ and Night Ferry well-filmed.

Here's a look at the Harwich service (sorry that I may be repeating some).





















The last photo is the Hoek section of the TEE _Rheingold._


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## Willbridge (Nov 20, 2021)

cirdan said:


> Are there any still active elsewhere in the world?


Some routes have been superseded by faster all-rail routes. I'm afraid that with very few exceptions all we'll have are fading 1970 timetable pages.



Trains 315 and 316 carried a tri-weekly Moscow<>Copenhagen sleeper in addition to the daily Berlin<>Copenhagen Mitropa sleeper and reserved seat coaches.



Trains 51 and 52 carried a Malmö<>Berlin coach on selected trips (tours?). The overnight ferry run on Trains 127 and 128 carried a post car Trelleborg<>Berlin, a Malmö<>München 2nd class coach, a weekly Stockholm<>Moscow sleeper complemented on other nights by a Stockholm<>Berlin sleeper, and on a peak days a Malmö<>Berlin sleeper.


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## cirdan (Nov 21, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I made a round-trip from Berlin on the Harwich<>Hoek route in 1970, overnight both ways for a rainy, cold week in London and Brighton. My Army partner and his wife had a different itinerary and they went west via Harwich and returned via the _Night Ferry _and Paris. And I think one reason for Dunquerque as the French port is that there was a Brussels sleeper. There are You Tube videos with the _Golden Arrow/Flèche d'Or_ and Night Ferry well-filmed.
> 
> Here's a look at the Harwich service (sorry that I may be repeating some).
> 
> ...



beautiful photos

i remember one trip in the 1980s with my parents when we caught the overnight ferry to hook and then the Lorelei express to Basel . It was quite an impressive journey which would no longer be possible today without multiple changes of train . On the Dutch leg the train was pulled by an 1100 series alsthom electric which even back then was quite a vintage machine . On the German leg we got a 110 I think .


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## cirdan (Nov 21, 2021)

I think the reason for the train ferry going to Dunkirk was that that was the only French channel port that could handle train ferries . The ferry link predated the passenger Night Ferry by many years , being designed for freight . There were no real passenger facilities on the ferry which was why passengers were not allowed to leave the train . I don’t know how the bathroom situation was handled . 

The only other port that was served by train ferries going to Britain was Zeebruge in Belgium . There was a freight only train ferry from there to harwich which continued well into the 1990s and was finally discontinued because the ferry used had reached the lens of its lifespan and there were no funds to replace it .


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 21, 2021)

There were a few Sleepers on Ferries in North America:

Detroit-Windsor-Toronto-Montreal: Passengers would board Sleepers, Parlor Cars and Coaches in Grand Trunk Western's Brush St. Station on the Detroit waterfront and be ferried across the river to Windsor where the cars were attached to CN trains to/from Toronto and Montreal. This lasted until 1955 when a bus started making a loop through downtown Detroit from Windsor and continued right up till Amtrak day 1971. (This would be the easiest solution today......just a connecting bus from VIA Windsor to Amtrak Detroit!)

Charlottetown-Montreal: A through CN Sleeper that lasted until 1959 was ferried across the 9 miles between Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick then attached to the Ocean Limited at Moncton. Also through coaches between Moncton and Charlottetown lasted until 1968. A bridge replaced the CN Ferry in 1997 and right up to Covid....there was a bus that connected with VIA's Ocean in Moncton to/from Charlottetown.

Halifax-Sydney: Complete CN trains including Sleepers, Parlor Cars, Diners and Coaches were ferried across the 1 1/2 mile wide Strait between mainland Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island. In 1955 the Canso Causeway open with road and rail and the trains now took this route.

The only other locations where sleepers might have been carried on ferries that I can think of are across Chesapeake Bay to/from the Delmarva Peninsula and the Straits of Mackinac to Michigan's UP.


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## MARC Rider (Nov 21, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> The only other locations where sleepers might have been carried on ferries that I can think of are across Chesapeake Bay to/from the Delmarva Peninsula and the Straits of Mackinac to Michigan's UP.


What about the Lake Michigan ferries? Did they carry passenger trains or sleepers?


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## jis (Nov 21, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> The only other locations where sleepers might have been carried on ferries that I can think of are across Chesapeake Bay to/from the Delmarva Peninsula and the Straits of Mackinac to Michigan's UP.


Here is a page that I stumbled onto recently...





__





Chesapeake Bay Ferry Operations - Abandoned Rails


ICC filings of the abandoned Chesapeake Bay Ferry Operations between Cape Charles and Norfolk, Virginia.




www.abandonedrails.com





I have the impression that it was a passenger ferry connecting with trains, but not one that transported passenger cars. It did carry freight cars, but attempt to restart it did not work out apparently.


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## JontyMort (Nov 21, 2021)

cirdan said:


> I think the reason for the train ferry going to Dunkirk was that that was the only French channel port that could handle train ferries . The ferry link predated the passenger Night Ferry by many years , being designed for freight.


That is correct. Only Dunkerque and - as you observe - Zeebrugge in Belgium had linkspans for rail traffic. Dover originally had a separate area of the harbour - with lock access - so that the level was more or less constant. Later this was replaced with a linkspan that could cope with the full tidal range.


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## JontyMort (Nov 21, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I made a round-trip from Berlin on the Harwich<>Hoek route in 1970, overnight both ways for a rainy, cold week in London and Brighton. My Army partner and his wife had a different itinerary and they went west via Harwich and returned via the _Night Ferry _and Paris. And I think one reason for Dunquerque as the French port is that there was a Brussels sleeper.


There was a Brussels sleeper and - for a couple of winters in the late 1960s - a Basel sleeper for ski traffic.

Nice pictures. Note that the BR double-arrow logo on your fourth picture was used on the ferries in this era - but used in reverse format for the maritime “port to port” rule of the road. I had forgotten this.


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## mcropod (Nov 21, 2021)

I happened upon a BBC series of the Chunnel's train operations on youtube last week and I've been running through the eps a bit since. I'd recommended it unreservedly. This is a link to ep 1:


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## Burns651 (Nov 21, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> What about the Lake Michigan ferries? Did they carry passenger trains or sleepers?


Strictly freight cars. There were nice passenger accommodations and staterooms on most of them, though.

I don't know if the ferries of the Mackinac Transportation Co. ever carried sleeping cars. They didn't in the 1910 and 1945 Official Guides I checked. Sleeping cars directly connected with the ferry, though. They definitely carried coaches. The last ones were ferried across on 8/1/55.


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## cirdan (Nov 22, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> That is correct. Only Dunkerque and - as you observe - Zeebrugge in Belgium had linkspans for rail traffic. Dover originally had a separate area of the harbour - with lock access - so that the level was more or less constant. Later this was replaced with a linkspan that could cope with the full tidal range.



I understand the train ferry was first introduced during WW1 to support the war effort and simplify movements for the army. The ferries and facilities were taken over by the railroads at a discount price after the war had ended, but had never been designed with civilian use in mind.


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## cirdan (Nov 22, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> There was a Brussels sleeper and - for a couple of winters in the late 1960s - a Basel sleeper for ski traffic.
> 
> Nice pictures. Note that the BR double-arrow logo on your fourth picture was used on the ferries in this era - but used in reverse format for the maritime “port to port” rule of the road. I had forgotten this.



I think the Brussels sleeper was somewhat intermittent, being introduced much later than the Paris portion of the train and also discontinued earlier.


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## JontyMort (Nov 22, 2021)

cirdan said:


> I understand the train ferry was first introduced during WW1 to support the war effort and simplify movements for the army. The ferries and facilities were taken over by the railroads at a discount price after the war had ended, but had never been designed with civilian use in mind.


Yes, that’s right. Searching for Port of Richborough brings up a lot of detail. They would have chosen a green field site because Dover was already full up.
Those ferries didn’t have too much freeboard, and the bow and stern doors were rudimentary by modern ro-ro standards .


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## JontyMort (Nov 22, 2021)

mcropod said:


> I happened upon a BBC series of the Chunnel's train operations on youtube last week and I've been running through the eps a bit since. I'd recommended it unreservedly. This is a link to ep 1:



Thanks for posting. The newsreel extract at the beginning is a classic period piece. There was a particular patronising style of voiceover that - by then - was reserved for exactly this sort of piece.


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## Willbridge (Nov 22, 2021)

cirdan said:


> beautiful photos
> 
> i remember one trip in the 1980s with my parents when we caught the overnight ferry to hook and then the Lorelei express to Basel . It was quite an impressive journey which would no longer be possible today without multiple changes of train . On the Dutch leg the train was pulled by an 1100 series alsthom electric which even back then was quite a vintage machine . On the German leg we got a 110 I think .


Even in 1970 the Netherlands railway was focusing on emu trains and so I would guess that their electric locomotives were under-utilized in terms of annual mileage.

It was interesting to me when I found out how popular the Hoek/Rhine routing to Switzerland was. Of course, it was very scenic but it also was convenient versus the change of stations in Paris on the shortest route.


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## JontyMort (Nov 22, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Even in 1970 the Netherlands railway was focusing on emu trains and so I would guess that their electric locomotives were under-utilized in terms of annual mileage.
> 
> It was interesting to me when I found out how popular the Hoek/Rhine routing to Switzerland was. Of course, it was very scenic but it also was convenient versus the change of stations in Paris on the shortest route.


I’m not sure via Paris is actually the shortest route. Broadly following the Rhine looks to be the logical way to go (also involving only two nations, apart from the last lap into Basel SBB, where DB would in any case have run through).


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## cirdan (Nov 25, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> I’m not sure via Paris is actually the shortest route. Broadly following the Rhine looks to be the logical way to go (also involving only two nations, apart from the last lap into Basel SBB, where DB would in any case have run through).



True , and furthermore having to change stations in Paris is always a minor hassle .

these days with Eurostar the connection via Brussels is often faster than via Paris .


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## JontyMort (Nov 25, 2021)

cirdan said:


> True , and furthermore having to change stations in Paris is always a minor hassle .
> 
> these days with Eurostar the connection via Brussels is often faster than via Paris .


The other point re Paris is that most (all?) of the TGV service to Basel now runs from Gare de Lyon, via the LGV sud-est, Dijon, the LGV Rhône-Rhin, and Mulhouse. So the change in Paris is not as easy as Gare du Nord to Gare de l’Est.

Some of the TGVs from Paris run through to Zürich. But the cross-platform connexions at Basel are very good anyway.

A relic of the Franco-Prussian War is right-hand running on the last bit from Mulhouse into Basel.


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## cirdan (Nov 26, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Some routes have been superseded by faster all-rail routes. I'm afraid that with very few exceptions all we'll have are fading 1970 timetable pages.
> 
> View attachment 25611
> 
> ...



It's amazing to see how the iron curtain was virtually non existent from the point of view of train schedules.


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## Willbridge (Nov 26, 2021)

cirdan said:


> It's amazing to see how the iron curtain was virtually non existent from the point of view of train schedules.


It mainly affected Germany due to the peculiar situation of Berlin. It also affected the volume of traffic across borders and kicked back into impacts on the respective DB and DR portions of the former German system.

I interviewed a man who knew a lot about that:

A Letter From Dr. Bauer – Berlin 1969

My favorite symbolism in the railway world was the Deutsche Bundesbahn map of European railways that showed no borders, thereby cleverly avoiding numerous disputes of that era. It did show ferry lines, including non-rail owned routes, lots of them.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 1, 2021)

What route/ferry would my family likely have taken from London to either Paris or Brussels (I can't remember which we went to first) in late '76? I remember either waking up or my father waking me up when we were on the ferry in our sleeper.


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## west point (Dec 1, 2021)

In February or early March 1912 ancestors Gr Grandfather, wife, daughter, and son went to England and then caught ferry for a train to Germany. After visiting various family there returned to England to catch an ocean liner to the USA. However somewhere between the continental ferry and the train to the ocean liner they were delayed and fortunately missed the Titanic. Any idea what boat(s) they might have taken to / from England?


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## Willbridge (Dec 2, 2021)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> What route/ferry would my family likely have taken from London to either Paris or Brussels (I can't remember which we went to first) in late '76? I remember either waking up or my father waking me up when we were on the ferry in our sleeper.


This would have been on the train named the _Night Ferry._ It carried cars for Paris and for Brussels from London's Victoria Station. The ferry portion carried the railway cars between Dover and Dunkerque.

This video might interest you...


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## cirdan (Dec 2, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> This would have been on the train named the _Night Ferry._ It carried cars for Paris and for Brussels from London's Victoria Station. The ferry portion carried the railway cars between Dover and Dunkerque.
> 
> This video might interest you...




If this happened in 1912 it would have been prior to the introduction of the train ferry. They probably went on a boat train.


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## JontyMort (Dec 2, 2021)

west point said:


> In February or early March 1912 ancestors Gr Grandfather, wife, daughter, and son went to England and then caught ferry for a train to Germany. After visiting various family there returned to England to catch an ocean liner to the USA. However somewhere between the continental ferry and the train to the ocean liner they were delayed and fortunately missed the Titanic. Any idea what boat(s) they might have taken to / from England?


In 1912 they would certainly have taken the train from London to whichever port, then crossed by the ferry (as foot passengers) and then caught another train. There would have been several viable routes, really depending on the sea crossing taken.

The most likely route for Germany would have been from Liverpool Street to Harwich Parkeston Quay (built by the Great Eastern in the 1880s for this traffic), then the ferry to Hook of Holland (near Rotterdam), picking up a train again from there to Germany. Through cars would certainly have been run from Hook of Holland to Berlin and probably Frankfurt. This would have been the longest ferry crossing, but in a way that was an advantage, since the ferry was* scheduled overnight, making a cabin on the ship desirable for those who could afford it.

*and indeed still is - this remains a perfectly reasonable route for the traditionally-minded.

They might alternatively have crossed the channel at its narrowest point - via Dover or Folkestone to Boulogne or Calais in France, then on by train. These crossings were and are a lot shorter - about an hour and a half - but the train section would have been longer.

Since they missed the Titanic, my guess - but only a guess - is that they were on the Harwich route, on the basis that it might have been easier to recover from a problem if they were coming via France (there being more sailings on the shorter routes).

Both the Great Western (to/from Paddington to Plymouth and Falmouth) and the London and South Western (to/from Waterloo to Plymouth) ran Ocean Specials to connect with the transatlantic traffic, for passengers and - especially - the mail from New York. Getting the mail through in competition with the GWR may have contributed to the LSWR’s wreck of its Ocean Special at Salisbury in 1906. This happened on the very day that the GWR opened its cutoff from Castle Cary to Taunton, shortening its route by 20 miles.

Titanic sailed from Southampton. This was something of a novelty in 1912 - White Star had moved their main operations from Liverpool to Southampton only in 1907, and Cunard did not do so until 1919. There would certainly have been several special connecting trains from Waterloo.

If you add in the Irish Mail from Euston to Holyhead - for Dublin - boat trains of one description or another must have been quite busy in the early 20th century.


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## cirdan (Dec 2, 2021)

There was also a second boat train connection to Ireland. The Great Western refused to sit back and idly let the L&NWR monopolize the lucrative Irish traffic and a ferry was introduced between Fishguard (in Wales) and Rosslare (in Ireland). The ferries were operated in-house by the Great Western with the onward connection to Dublin by the D&SWR (I think). The Great Western had to build a line to Fishguard and a harbor especially for this purpose, which involved a lot of dynamiting through unfriendly and rough terrain.

Further places where trains interconnected with ferries were Stanraer (for the Hebrides) and also the ferry to the Isle of Wight which did and still does connect to trains at both ends. Most of the channel ports had trains connecting directly with ferries. Most famous was Weymouth where trains had to negotiate street running tracks.


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## JontyMort (Dec 2, 2021)

cirdan said:


> There was also a second boat train connection to Ireland. The Great Western refused to sit back and idly let the L&NWR monopolize the lucrative Irish traffic and a ferry was introduced between Fishguard (in Wales) and Rosslare (in Ireland). The ferries were operated in-house by the Great Western with the onward connection to Dublin by the D&SWR (I think). The Great Western had to build a line to Fishguard and a harbor especially for this purpose, which involved a lot of dynamiting through unfriendly and rough terrain.
> 
> Further places where trains interconnected with ferries were Stanraer (for the Hebrides) and also the ferry to the Isle of Wight which did and still does connect to trains at both ends. Most of the channel ports had trains connecting directly with ferries. Most famous was Weymouth where trains had to negotiate street running tracks.


Yes, the Fishguard-Rosslare route was a joint venture between the Great Western in Britain and the Great Southern and Western in Ireland - which had a line from Dublin to Rosslare Harbour (now in a sad state south and west of Wexford - see the thread on Irish Railways). Both harbours and their connecting lines opened as late as 1906. Neither port was (or is) ideal as a natural harbour, but at least Fishguard had the advantage of avoiding the passage round St David’s Head from the GWR’s original terminus at Neyland on Milford Haven - which faces south rather than west.

As you say, much dynamiting was required - mainly, I think, for the creation of the harbour itself (the line itself doesn’t have too much trouble getting through).

The other major port for the traffic to Ireland was the Midland’s harbour at Heysham - near Lancaster - which served the Isle of Man as well as Belfast and Dublin. This opened in 1904.

Neither of these was anything like as convenient or important as the route via Holyhead to Dublin. For this, Robert Stephenson’s fantastic tubular bridge across the Menai Strait had been built as early as 1850. The bridge survives - though sadly (as with his similar Victoria Bridge at Montreal) not in original form.

A minor correction about Stranraer. This - in essence the south-westerly point in Scotland - is the port for Larne in Northern Ireland, across the deceptively narrow looking North Channel. Take you sea-sick pills on this one!

Street running at Weymouth is sadly gone - never to return, because the track has been lifted. It required bells on the locomotives - unique in British practice - and usually had someone walking in front of the train. At that speed, pedestrians were not a problem, but the owners of badly-parked cars occasionally got a fright.


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## west point (Dec 2, 2021)

Gentlemen thanks very much. I am going to print this all out and pass it on to my children. Again thanks.
If anything else please pass it on. One item I believe that the Grandfather was from southern Germany but have not completely verified that. He emigrated about 1893?


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## cirdan (Dec 2, 2021)

west point said:


> Gentlemen thanks very much. I am going to print this all out and pass it on to my children. Again thanks.
> If anything else please pass it on. One item I believe that the Grandfather was from southern Germany but have not completely verified that. He emigrated about 1893?



A lot of Germans who emigrated went through the port of Cuxhafen. There is a museum there today that commemorates this. I haven't been there myself but have been told that it's well worth visiting. It may be a long shot but maybe somebody there can help you with your enquiries.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 3, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> This would have been on the train named the _Night Ferry._ It carried cars for Paris and for Brussels from London's Victoria Station. The ferry portion carried the railway cars between Dover and Dunkerque.



Thanks, then we would have gone that way whether or not our final destination was France or Belgium.

BTW side bar/note question. Where was there a train ferry in Norway? I can't picture anywhere there would have been one - I don't imagine that the Oslo-Kiel or Denmark ferries had train accommodation - I've been on the car ferry Oslo-Kiel and back (as well as the ill-fated Estonia from Stockholm to Tallinn).


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## JontyMort (Dec 3, 2021)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> BTW side bar/note question. Where was there a train ferry in Norway? I can't picture anywhere there would have been one - I don't imagine that the Oslo-Kiel or Denmark ferries had train accommodation - I've been on the car ferry Oslo-Kiel and back (as well as the ill-fated Estonia from Stockholm to Tallinn).


There was one from Kristiansand in Norway to Hirtshals in Denmark (at the north end of Jutland). Within Norway there was also the Tinnsjø ferry - as featured (in a fictionalised version of real events) being blown up by Kirk Douglas in the film _The Heroes of Telemark._


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## JontyMort (Dec 3, 2021)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Thanks, then we would have gone that way whether or not our final destination was France or Belgium.


Yes, the train ran as a single consist on the English side, and certainly on the ferry. I think the two portions were joined/divided at Lille, so ran as a single train between Dunkerque and Lille.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 3, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> Yes, the train ran as a single consist on the English side, and certainly on the ferry. I think the two portions were joined/divided at Lille, so ran as a single train between Dunkerque and Lille.


Oooo, I've been to Lille!


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## jis (Dec 3, 2021)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Oooo, I've been to Lille!


I have passed through Lille many times on the Eurostar, and before that on pre-TGV Paris - Brussels service.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 3, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> There was one from Kristiansand in Norway to Hirtshals in Denmark (at the north end of Jutland). Within Norway there was also the Tinnsjø ferry - as featured (in a fictionalised version of real events) being blown up by Kirk Douglas in the film _The Heroes of Telemark._


Ah, the Kristiansand ferry was freight only (no wonder I'd never heard of it). Looks like the Telemark ferry was discontinued before my time (never been to that part of Norway anyways) - I'd totally forgotten about that one.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 3, 2021)

JontyMort said:


> Yes, the train ran as a single consist on the English side, and certainly on the ferry. I think the two portions were joined/divided at Lille, so ran as a single train between Dunkerque and Lille.


Yes, when I took the Night Ferry in 1971 our coach from Dunquerque was detached from the Paris bound train at Lille where we were picked up an hour or two later by a Brussels bound train. I did not stay on until Brussels but embarked at Metz to catch a Frankfurt bound train.



JontyMort said:


> The other major port for the traffic to Ireland was the Midland’s harbour at Heysham - near Lancaster - which served the Isle of Man as well as Belfast and Dublin. This opened in 1904.
> 
> Neither of these was anything like as convenient or important as the route via Holyhead to Dublin. For this, Robert Stephenson’s fantastic tubular bridge across the Menai Strait had been built as early as 1850. The bridge survives - though sadly (as with his similar Victoria Bridge at Montreal) not in original form.



In 1971 when I was in Britain, there had been a fire on the Menai Bridge so all boat train traffic to Holyhead was diverted to Heysham. BR even had a special interim timetable published which I still have somewhere.


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## JontyMort (Dec 3, 2021)

jis said:


> I have passed through Lille many times on the Eurostar, and before that on pre-TGV Paris - Brussels service.





AmtrakMaineiac said:


> In 1971 when I was in Britain, there had been a fire on the Menai Bridge so all boat train traffic to Holyhead was diverted to Heysham. BR even had a special interim timetable published which I still have somewhere.


Sadly, that was the 1970 fire that destroyed Robert Stephenson’s original tubular - in effect box girder - structure on the Britannia Bridge. It was rebuilt to a different design, using his original piers, and later a road was put on top of the railway. You couldn’t accuse Stephenson of having under-engineered the piers. The same also applies at Montreal, where the original piers now carry cantilevered roadways as well as the rails. The original tubes were removed from the Victoria Bridge in Montreal relatively early. The bridge at Conwy retains Stephenson’s original tubes. The Britannia Bridge - unlike the other two - was spectacular because of its height - insisted on by the admiralty to allow shipping to pass through the strait.


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## jis (Dec 3, 2021)

I have been across the Conwy bridge during my Wales jaunt a few years back when I covered all rail routes in Wales.

The immigration agent thought I had grown two heads when I mentioned why I was entering UK in answer to her usual question.


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## Willbridge (Dec 3, 2021)

jis said:


> I have passed through Lille many times on the Eurostar, and before that on pre-TGV Paris - Brussels service.


Riding Cologne>Paris overnight in December 1969 -- the last English-speaking passenger left my 2nd class compartment at Lille. He was a Canadian chartered accountant. It was still dark, but it was reassuring a bit later that all the UHF tv antennas were pointed in the direction that we were going. I slept fitfully, excited to be on my first trip to France.

Later, I wrote to my family, reporting that Belgium seemed like a nice country, but it was dark the whole way across it.


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## cirdan (Dec 4, 2021)

jis said:


> I have passed through Lille many times on the Eurostar, and before that on pre-TGV Paris - Brussels service.



I attended a conference at the university there once.

Items of transit interest in the city are the VAL driverless metro system and also the streetcars. 

I believe the Pelfort beer which is popular throughout France comes from there as well.


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