# Roomette on California Zephir



## wkaemena (Feb 25, 2007)

I am excited about my first long distance trip on Amtrak Superliner. My trip will be in June going from Chicago to Emeryville. I have a fix date to be in SFO therefore I decided to book early. I have got Roomette # 13 which I found out is on the lower level.

Is there any big disadvantage to be on the lower level in regard of view and noise or any other effects???

Is there any way to change this to a roomette on upper lever?

What are your opinions and experiences?

Willy

I am from Europe and I am living in the Middle East

European Trains in QTVR ( Virtual Reality)


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## rmgreenesq (Feb 25, 2007)

Welcome Aboard!

The advantage to the lower level is less sway from the train. The disadvantages (at least from my experience) is that you will never see the train attendant.

I suppose you could ask the train attendant to move you up top if there are any available rooms. I would doubt that there are any rooms available on the California Zephyer in June, but there may be.

I'm concerned that you stated that you have a fixed date that you need to be in San Francisco. I trust you have reviewed the on time performance of the California Zephyer and left yourself plenty of time. Although I've never ridden on the Zephyer, I understand that it is frequently late and sometimes very late.

Rick


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## RailFanLNK (Feb 25, 2007)

I would stick with the lower level roomette. Alot less foot traffic and you are right by the bathrooms/showers and luggage rack. Roomettes are tiny so you can't keep much luggage in the room so you will have the luggage rack right by your room. One small disadvantage is when the train is stopped, people can look in your roomette from outside the train if you don't have the curtains pulled, but that doesn't happen much cuz the train stops are "quick" other than at designated stops where they change crew members and take on fuel/water etc. I liked being in the lower level alot more than the upper level. We had a sleeper car attendent named Ray Chambers that was excellent even though we were in the lower level. He attended all our needs so my experience is different than the poster before me. The CZ is always late so you may want to think over the "set date" comment. We arrived in EMY 6 hours late due to slow orders from UP. Kick back, relax and enjoy the trip. Take off your watch and enjoy life, the people and the scenery.


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## wkaemena (Feb 25, 2007)

rail rookie said:


> The CZ is always late so you may want to think over the "set date" comment. We arrived in EMY 6 hours late due to slow orders from UP. Kick back, relax and enjoy the trip. Take off your watch and enjoy life, the people and the scenery.


Thanks for the hints. My fix date is one day after planned arrival..... guess that is enough margin...

Willy

European Trains from the inside in QTVR (Quicktime Virtual Reality)


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## printman2000 (Feb 25, 2007)

If you would like to change to an upper lever room, you would have to call the 800 number. However, from what I understand, that could change your price.

If it were me, I would try and change. I would much rather be on the upper level for the better view out my window.


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## wkaemena (Feb 25, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> If it were me, I would try and change. I would much rather be on the upper level for the better view out my window.


that was one of my concerns when I saw my booking on the lower level. Because one of my goals is taking pictures... not only from the lounge car.

So I have to think it over and give it a try to call 1 -800....

European Trains from the inside


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## Palmland (Feb 25, 2007)

wkaemena said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > If it were me, I would try and change. I would much rather be on the upper level for the better view out my window.
> ...


Last month I had a roomette on lower level on the SW Chief. I too was dubious as all other trips were on top level.

What I didn't like - maybe a little less view although actually got a better view of what was going on in stations and rail terminals since were at eye level.

What I did like - Loved the quiet on the lower level. The door was handy to pop out at stops and even sneak open the window portion to grab a few phots. Privacy was never an issue as just drew the curtains at night.

I think the attendent summed it up. The lower level is much better than the upper, unless a familly with rowdy kids is occupying the family bedroom. I would certainly take the lower level again.


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## gswager (Feb 26, 2007)

It wouldn't hurt to call the Amtrak reservation to check out the price if you want to change the room. Call is free!


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## sutton (Feb 27, 2007)

gswager said:


> It wouldn't hurt to call the Amtrak reservation to check out the price if you want to change the room. Call is free!


After having had upper and lower, I'll go with lower every time! It's quieter, the best bathrooms are there (more than one!), the luggage is close by (I stored my bags out on the shelves). You wind up spending time in the lounge so take your pics from there. And the view from down below isn't bad at all.


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## wkaemena (Feb 28, 2007)

sutton said:


> After having had upper and lower, I'll go with lower every time! It's quieter, the best bathrooms are there (more than one!), the luggage is close by (I stored my bags out on the shelves). You wind up spending time in the lounge so take your pics from there. And the view from down below isn't bad at all.


Hi and thanks to all of you with with your valuable hints.

I finally decided to stay in my room 13..... 13 =lucky draw...

Still wondering how a ride on Amtrak LD will be !?

Guess it might be a different experience to my frequent European night travel


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## rmgreenesq (Feb 28, 2007)

wkaemena said:


> Still wondering how a ride on Amtrak LD will be !?
> Guess it might be a different experience to my frequent European night travel


After looking at the links you supplied as your normal sleeping compartment, I think you are going to be sorely disspionted with Amtrak's thirty year old equipment.

Rick


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## TransAtlantic (Feb 28, 2007)

But I've been on European equipment from the 60's, especially in Spain, that's still running; looks antique, but nice - and you might get lucky and get one of the newly refurbished sleepers (note the cool blue lighting!)


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## wkaemena (Mar 2, 2007)

rail rookie said:


> The CZ is always late so you may want to think over the "set date" comment. We arrived in EMY 6 hours late due to slow orders from UP. Kick back, relax and enjoy the trip. Take off your watch and enjoy life, the people and the scenery.


I feel lucky that I have found this forum as a great source of useful information about Amtrak. Every other day I check the actual arrival times of the CZ and that indicates considerable delays of several hours many times. knowing this I think somebody should consider a long distance travel as a kind of holyday cruise and not a means of transport to get somewhere on time. When traveling in Europe I can calculate my connections sometimes in fractions of a minute which works out most of the time and if not, well there will be another train in 30-60 min bringing you with same comfort and speed to your destination.


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## GG-1 (Mar 2, 2007)

Aloha

I also have had a upper and lower, on the same route, Coast Starlight, My take is there is less sway, more noise in the lower. If that important to you thats what should be considered. For record most spend more time in the lounge than in the room.

Enjoy your Trip.


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## wkaemena (Mar 15, 2007)

wkaemena said:


> sutton said:
> 
> 
> > After having had upper and lower, I'll go with lower every time! It's quieter, the best bathrooms are there (more than one!), the luggage is close by (I stored my bags out on the shelves). You wind up spending time in the lounge so take your pics from there. And the view from down below isn't bad at all.
> ...


Has somebody an idea where car 531 is situated in the CZ in respect to front / rear of train and distance to dining/ lounge car?


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## PRR 60 (Mar 15, 2007)

wkaemena said:


> Has somebody an idea where car 531 is situated in the CZ in respect to front / rear of train and distance to dining/ lounge car?


Front of the train immediately aheead of the diner:

Front

Transition Sleeper 533 (now dropped?)

Sleeper 532

Sleeper 531

Diner

Sightseer Lounge

Coach

Coach

Coach

Rear


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## gyuri_ft (Mar 15, 2007)

wkaemena said:


> Guess it might be a different experience to my frequent European night travel


Nice pictures! Riding both Amtrak (not as much as I would like) and good portion of Eurasia for many years, well, it's difficult to compare which is better. One thing is sure: I like the Russian "titan" with boiling hot water better than the weak coffee in amtrak sleeper. But the rest is a draw. I did even ride old slumercoaches as few were still in service on Amtrak. I am not sure about the rest.

Maybe the best price/performance is the super-duper deluxe RZD sleeper Berlin-Moscow with 4 compartments in the car and all-day buffet? Is expensive from Berlin, but under 100 Euro/Person from Warsaw. The EN sleeper you took pictures is very nice but beyond my budget of 5 people.

Thanks for BP Keleti pics and for new V1047 in the background.

Trick about Budapest:

1) Open your picture

2) Look straight into "eye" of V1047 (it's on the track #8)

3) Slowly rotate the cursor, so now V1047 is on your left hand side.

4) You should see an older gentleman holding yellow-blue paper box in his right hand.

Just across you is the Wasteels travel office. This is the only one in Budapest who will sell you rail ticket without handling fee and accept "plastic". They - unlike MAV ticket agents even do speek (some) English. They also sell CITY-STAR tickets, a very important means to travel to Germany, Austria and most of East Europe. Anyone traveling extensively in Europe should go to that place very first, than somewhere else.

Q: how was the SZ dining car on "Avala"? We wanted to use it, but arrived with good 180+ from Saloniki and missed the connection. The local trains were of course pretty bad, but still managed with some running to arrive in outskirts of Budpest around midnight - 4 connections from Belgrade! If you look at my "avatar" it's actually the front part of Avala with ÖBB 2nd class behind RZD sleeper


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## wkaemena (Mar 15, 2007)

gyuri_ft said:


> wkaemena said:
> 
> 
> > Guess it might be a different experience to my frequent European night travel
> ...


Maybe we are going a bit off topic but....

.. I can second your opinion about Wasteels office in Budapest.

I dont know if I have been on the Avala. It was a Intercity Belgrade Budapest Vienna with arrival in Vienna around 7 PM the food was plenty and the price cheap.

Here another view of Keleti PU

And here something unbeatable. One night on a sleeping car across Syria for only 6.50$US


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## AmtrakCrescent20 (Mar 15, 2007)

PRR 60 said:


> Transition Sleeper 533 (now dropped?)


As far as I know, Amtrak abandoned the plan to remove Transition sleepers some time ago. The Heritage crew dorms, however, are no longer in use.


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## AlanB (Mar 15, 2007)

AmtrakCrescent20 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Transition Sleeper 533 (now dropped?)
> ...


Nope, the plan to remove Transistion sleepers was definately not abandoned. A good friend of mine who just attended the recent NARP region 2 meeting reported that the new VP of Marketing and Product Management Emmett Fremaux stated the following:



> He is working hard to get the Transition Dorms back on the Superliner trains to sell part of the inventory on them to customers.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2007)

wkaemena said:


> Maybe we are going a bit off topic but...... I can second your opinion about Wasteels office in Budapest.
> 
> I dont know if I have been on the Avala. It was a Intercity Belgrade Budapest Vienna with arrival in Vienna around 7 PM the food was plenty and the price cheap.
> 
> ...


Only 50-100 times more and you can have a similar room in America.


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## printman2000 (Mar 16, 2007)

AlanB said:


> Nope, the plan to remove Transistion sleepers was definately not abandoned.


It has not been implemented yet, correct? I have seen many recent pics with the transition dorms still on the trains.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 16, 2007)

The absence of the transition sleeper has created a problem that was reported on FlyerTalk: diesel fumes in the first car. The Transition car has the forward car-to-car door at the low-level car elevation (transition). The baggage car shields the door from the exhaust coming from the locomotives. But a standard sleeper has the door at the upper-level height and the upper part of that door is above the roof of the baggage car and right in the path of the exhaust fumes.

The FlyerTalk poster said the smell of the fumes throughout that first sleeper was strong and unpleasant. Apparently the crew had attempted to seal the door with duct tape, but duct tape being duct tape, it quickly came loose and was hanging. This, in my opinion, is a major issue. Of course this is only one person's observation and maybe it was a fluke, but the mere thought of breathing diesel exhaust for hours on end is enough to make me think twice about accepting a room in the first car of any Superliner train that does not have a transition car in the lead.

For the benefit of the OP, car 531 is the second car and is OK.


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## AlanB (Mar 16, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Nope, the plan to remove Transistion sleepers was definately not abandoned.
> ...


AFAIK the plan did not include all of the LD's that use Superliners, but several of them including the Zephyr and the CS IIRC were in the plan and to my knowledge they were indeed removed. And the remarks of the Amtrak VP would seem to confirm that, otherwise there would be no need for him to fight to get them back.


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## printman2000 (Mar 16, 2007)

Doing a little photo research has revealed transition dorms on the Zephyr as late as February 6th, 2007...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=174602

There are also many pics that include the TD from January 2007.

The absolute lastest pic I could find (from March 10th, 2007) did not include the TD, but had three regular sleepers instead...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=179364

Was the plan to dump the transition and add a third standard sleeper? Does anyone have any first hand accounts of the Zephyr running without a transition dorm or third sleeper?


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## gyuri_ft (Mar 16, 2007)

wkaemena said:


> gyuri_ft said:
> 
> 
> > wkaemena said:
> ...


Yes, it was "Avala". There is only one IC from Beograd to Vienna and it has Serbian Diner.

It's actually possible to beat the Syrian price: you can travel from Bratislava till Korean border or China for 100 Euro r/t using CITY-STAR ticket bought in Slovakia. Catch: the sleeper surcharge (around 80 Euro each way) is extra. But you travel well over 10000 km each way. 20000 km for 100 Euro is not very expensive, even if you pay 180 Euro for the sleeper (both ways) extra.

I did see your pics of the CFS sleeper. Syrians bought them from Germany (East) and recently refurbished them at Pars car factory in Iran. Who get the Iranian-rebuilt car are lucky and you are one of them. The refurbished cars run internationally Haydarpasha - Aleppo, the non-refurbished ones Aleppo-Tatvan. On domestic route it's a Syrian roulette, what you get. But even the worst is well worth 5 Euro.


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## AlanB (Mar 16, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> Doing a little photo research has revealed transition dorms on the Zephyr as late as February 6th, 2007...
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=174602
> 
> There are also many pics that include the TD from January 2007.
> ...


Well again, I can't say that it positively happened, but it was reported by NARP and I seem to recall seeing an Arrow printout posted by Gene Poon that noted the elimination of crew dorms on both the CZ and the CS, effective by mid-January. The loss was gradual, as they simply stopped sending them out from Chicago for the CZ and from LA for the CS, which meant that the loss occured over several days. AFAIK there was no intent to replace the lost dorm with an extra sleeper, since this was a cost cutting move to save on fuel by not hauling around one more car.

And even if there were occasions where the CZ was sent out with a dorm, I would still tend to believe that those were rare events since again, why would a VP state that he was fighting to get them returned if they were already running?


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## wkaemena (Mar 17, 2007)

PRR 60 said:


> The absence of the transition sleeper has created a problem that was reported on FlyerTalk: diesel fumes in the first car. The Transition car has the forward car-to-car door at the low-level car elevation (transition). The baggage car shields the door from the exhaust coming from the locomotives. But a standard sleeper has the door at the upper-level height and the upper part of that door is above the roof of the baggage car and right in the path of the exhaust fumes.
> For the benefit of the OP, car 531 is the second car and is OK.


With the absence of the transition sleeper and the obvious problems of fumes coming through the front door, I hope Amtrak will invent any form of special seal securing the usability of the first sleeper behind the locomotives.

This issue reminds me of train travel in Germany until 50 years ago when smoke and steam from steam locos where coming through the open compartment window. Lukily 90% of haulage is now done with clean electric locos, where the energy is coming from a variety of sources like clean water, wind, nuclear or highly efficient thermal coal and gas power stations


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## printman2000 (Mar 25, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> Doing a little photo research has revealed transition dorms on the Zephyr as late as February 6th, 2007...
> http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=174602
> 
> There are also many pics that include the TD from January 2007.
> ...


Another pic of the CZ on March 17th with a TD... http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=180570

And another on the same day...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=180503

I have yet to see a pic of the CZ this year without one (other than the one mentioned in my previous post where they added a 3rd sleeper).

By the way, I am not challenging you in this, I am just looking for evidence.


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## RailFanLNK (Mar 25, 2007)

Ok...this may be a question where the "pro's" roll thier eyes, but what is exactly is the difference between a regular sleeper car and a "transistion" sleeper car and why is there so much debate about it? <_< Does it cost Amtrak to operate a transistion sleeper? Or does it save money or make more money etc. I'm just confused about it. Thanks!


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## printman2000 (Mar 25, 2007)

rail rookie said:


> Ok...this may be a question where the "pro's" roll thier eyes, but what is exactly is the difference between a regular sleeper car and a "transistion" sleeper car and why is there so much debate about it? <_< Does it cost Amtrak to operate a transistion sleeper? Or does it save money or make more money etc. I'm just confused about it. Thanks!


I think it is referred to mostly as a transition dorm (I think that is how it is labeled on the outside) because most are used a crew only berths. From what I understand, the whole car only has roomettes and no bedrooms and downstairs their is a crew break room where the handicap room us usually. The word transition comes from the fact that on one end of the car, the door is high so as to line up with other superliner cars. The other end is low so as to line up with single level cars like the baggage car or any other single level equipment. Some trains have sold a limited number of rooms to the public, but I think this may just be on one or two trains.

The importance I see in the car is the fact the crew has to be housed somewhere. If this car is not there, they take up rooms in the main passenger sleepers taking away those rooms for sale.


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## AmtrakCrescent20 (Mar 25, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> Some trains have sold a limited number of rooms to the public, but I think this may just be on one or two trains.


From what I've heard/seen, the back 8 roomettes in the transition sleeper (17-24) are sold to the public on all superliner long distance trains except the Coast Starlight (when it had/has one) and the Capitol Limited. Of course, if the CZ no longer carries one, no rooms in it are sold!


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## AmtrakCrescent20 (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm confused about when Amtrak decided to remove the transition sleepers. I know a while ago they announced that the CS and CZ would lose them, but here (scroll down to the bottom of the page) it appears that Amtrak decided to keep them. But now, Amtrak seems to have removed them. Is there something I'm missing???


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## AlanB (Mar 25, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> From what I understand, the whole car only has roomettes and no bedrooms and downstairs their is a crew break room where the handicap room us usually.


IIRC and I'm not currently able to look at the diagram, the break room takes up the space normally occupied by the 4 roomettes and the family room. The Accessible room still exists, as do the 3 bathrooms and the shower.


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## printman2000 (Mar 25, 2007)

AmtrakCrescent20 said:


> I'm confused about when Amtrak decided to remove the transition sleepers. I know a while ago they announced that the CS and CZ would lose them, but here (scroll down to the bottom of the page) it appears that Amtrak decided to keep them. But now, Amtrak seems to have removed them. Is there something I'm missing???


As I said above, I have seen no photographic evidence that the TD have been removed from the CZ.


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## AlanB (Mar 25, 2007)

AmtrakCrescent20 said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Some trains have sold a limited number of rooms to the public, but I think this may just be on one or two trains.
> ...


I've only heard of sales on the City, Eagle, Zephyr, and the EB. I don't recall hearing about any rooms being sold on the Chief, Capitol, or the Coast Starlight. They also don't sell rooms on the Auto Train's transdorm, but that's due to the much higher crew levels by comparison to the rest of the long distance trains.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2007)

This summer, when I was on the chief, no rooms in the trans dorm were sold. There was some kind of posting on the door, too.


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## caravanman (Mar 25, 2007)

The 360 Degree photo's in some of the links above look rather cool, once one stops feeling dizzy! As an "old bloke" I am wondering how one achieves such pictures?

Ed. B)

ps, I have to agree that the Amtrak long distance trains seem more of a leisure rail cruise than a reliable means of transport..!


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## AmtrakCrescent20 (Mar 25, 2007)

caravanman said:


> ps, I have to agree that the Amtrak long distance trains seem more of a leisure rail cruise than a reliable means of transport..!


They may seem like a "land cruise" but probably only 20% or less of all long distance train passengers are there just to ride the train/see scenery etc. The other 80% are using it as a means of transportation, either because they can't afford flying but don't want to take Greyhound, don't like to fly, can't reach their destination by plane. It's true that not many business travelers use long distance trains because of the delays.


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## AmtrakWPK (Mar 25, 2007)

The leisure land cruise might be at least a partial fit for those in first class (some version of sleeper). The luxury and comfort of accommodations in a sleeper make tardy arrivals simply a minor nuisance, with the exception of whatever consequences accrue to the passengers' continuing schedule. It does not directly cost them anything but their time.

You cannot, however, stretch that definition to include the much more numerous coach passengers, for whom a very tardy train, with the resultant greatly increased cost of food (a VERY real concern for a poor family with several children), and with the additional time in coach seats, which are certainly more comfortable than airline cattle car seats, but you really start to grow weary (and also become rather pungent) after awhile, and for a parent traveling with a number of children, it can be a nightmare. A cruise for them? NOT!!

Additionally, of course, a cruise ship is generally VERY prompt in terms of timekeeping. There is little or no uncertainty as to when you are going to arrive at the next stop when you are on a cruise. That simile really doesn't fly, if you'll pardon the pun, when using it with Amtrak.


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## Trogdor (Mar 25, 2007)

IIRC, my California Zephyr had three sleepers and no transition sleeper. However, this often happens if the transition car is bad-ordered and there are no others available to replace them. You'll frequently see a standard sleeper in place of a transition sleeper on any Superliner overnight train if the yard didn't have a serviceable transition sleeper available when the consist was made up.


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## frj1983 (Mar 26, 2007)

A recent article that I read(can't remember where) about the removal of the transition sleepers said that the crew would be based in one of the regular sleepers, thus creating less rooms available to the public who are willing to pay for first class service. The rumor was that Amtrak would crank up the first class prices to make up for the loss of space and revenue. UGH! Didn't have enough sleeping space available to begin with, now shrink it some more, and we have "really expensive" rooms!


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## REX (Mar 26, 2007)

frj1983 said:


> A recent article that I read(can't remember where) about the removal of the transition sleepers said that the crew would be based in one of the regular sleepers, thus creating less rooms available to the public who are willing to pay for first class service. The rumor was that Amtrak would crank up the first class prices to make up for the loss of space and revenue. UGH! Didn't have enough sleeping space available to begin with, now shrink it some more, and we have "really expensive" rooms!


On my latest trip on the Meteor this past February, our sleeping car attendant said they no longer run crew dorms -- instead the crew sleeps in the regular "revenue" sleeper cars.

Sounds like you are correct -- less sleeper space available for the paying public.


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## Trogdor (Mar 26, 2007)

The Heritage dorms have been retired. The Superliner transition sleepers are still in service as crew dorms. The plan to take transition sleepers off of many trains was cancelled before it was implemented.


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## wkaemena (Mar 28, 2007)

caravanman said:


> The 360 Degree photo's in some of the links above look rather cool, once one stops feeling dizzy! As an "old bloke" I am wondering how one achieves such pictures?Ed. B)


these interactive 360/180 pictures are made from 4 shots with a fisheye lense. It is the next best being there yourself....


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