# Is restoration of the National Limited feasible?



## Fenway (Apr 21, 2022)

This is my holy grail, a train from New York to Los Angeles that does not involve Chicago. 

I believe it can work


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## Maverickstation (Apr 21, 2022)

How much of this routing is even possible today, in particular the Ohio, and Indiana segments ?

Ken


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## Ziv (Apr 21, 2022)

A direct cross continental train would be very cool. I would definitely pay to ride it at least once. Not sure how many others would, or where the equipment would come from. But a non-Chicago NY-LA route would be a nice option.
Not sure what the route would be from Kansas City to LA. Would it follow the same route as the Southwest Chief? Two trains a day over that route would add options for travelers. Maybe bring back the name Super Chief?
This won't happen in todays environment, but it is entertaining to think of what might be, and how much fun it would be to ride.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 21, 2022)

As I recall the National Limited suffered due to bad former PRR track through Ohio and Indiana which resulted in delays and poor ridership which caused it to be on the chopping block during the 1979 Carter cuts. 

The Tester amendment to the Surface Transportation Investment Act, later rolled into the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act, required the DOT to study the restoration of several trains notably the North Coast Limited but also the National Limited. I have not heard anything as to whether this study is ongoing and what the timeline is.


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## Anthony V (Apr 21, 2022)

West of Dayton, OH it will have to take a different route because the Panhandle route it used is abandoned between there and Indy. The problem is that there is no feasible alternative for that portion of the route. According to a map released last month, the proposed study has the route going southwest from Dayton to Cincinnati, on to Louisville, and westward from there to St Louis and Kansas City via the River Runner route.

Btw, here is a great find on YouTube: a film video of the National Limited taken in the summer of 1979 in Brookville, OH. The tracks in the location of this video are abandoned today.


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## Trogdor (Apr 21, 2022)

The most realistic option would be (which was briefly studied a few years ago as part of the PRIIA charade) to send the Cardinal to St. Louis, where it could possibly connect with the River Runner or operate its own frequency to Kansas City and offer connections to the Southwest Chief.


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## Palmland (Apr 21, 2022)

Another option would be to operate on CSX mainline (mostly ex NYC) from Cleveland-Indianapolis- St.Louis. Could split from the LSL or CL at Cleveland. Good luck


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## jis (Apr 21, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> The most realistic option would be (which was briefly studied a few years ago as part of the PRIIA charade) to send the Cardinal to St. Louis, where it could possibly connect with the River Runner or operate its own frequency to Kansas City and offer connections to the Southwest Chief.


Three of the seven options considered included a St. Louis termination point. Two were re-routing away from Chicago to St. Louis and one was splitting the train into a Chicago and St. Louis section. Eventually the selected alternative was daily service to Chicago replacing the Hoosier state between Indy and Chicago.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 21, 2022)

Honestly, two routes between Columbus and STL, one via Indy and one via the Ohio river, would be great, especially for the connections to the national network and interconnections between unconnected cities they would offer.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 21, 2022)

Maverickstation said:


> How much of this routing is even possible today, in particular the Ohio, and Indiana segments ?
> 
> Ken



It is much more important to get the Ohio 3C+D route established and in operation before any attempt is made to return the National Limited.


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 21, 2022)

And we have to be honest with ourselves. There will not be any new long distance, or overnight, routes or services in the foreseeable future.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2022)

Going back to the question of whether a National Limited is feasible today in terms of availability of routes, our friend @Seaboard92 had posted a very detailed post last year which can be found at:






Significant former routes


I rode the National Limited after Amtrak took over. The train was sort of an after thought, no real lounge or dinner, the rails were in bad shape. I understood that is why they quit running it, poor maintenance killed it. And yet on the last trip I had on it they were so crowded the conductor...




www.amtraktrains.com





After ones head stops spinning from the exquisite details, it is clear that it will require a bit of work to work around the outages in the Panhandle Route between Pittsburgh and Columbus. Of course, there are several possible other alternatives too.


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## Northwestern (Apr 21, 2022)

How about restoring the LA Limited, Omaha to LA. It would mean Wyoming would have Amtrak stations and Salt Lake City arrival times that are reasonable. Maybe add on the Butte Special, Salt Lake City to Butte, MT.






Union Pacific Trains 7-5 and 6-8 - July, 1957 - Streamliner Schedules


July 1957 timetable for Union Pacific passenger trains 7-5 and 6-8 at Streamliner Schedules.



is.gd





(Just kidding)


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2022)

Anthony V said:


> West of Dayton, OH it will have to take a different route because the Panhandle route it used is abandoned between there and Indy. The problem is that there is no feasible alternative for that portion of the route. According to a map released last month, the proposed study has the route going southwest from Dayton to Cincinnati, on to Louisville, and westward from there to St Louis and Kansas City via the River Runner route.
> 
> Btw, here is a great find on YouTube: a film video of the National Limited taken in the summer of 1979 in Brookville, OH. The tracks in the location of this video are abandoned today.



Do you know what city that is in? I would absolutely love to go to Google maps and see what the area looks like today.


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## Anthony V (Apr 21, 2022)

Cal said:


> Do you know what city that is in? I would absolutely love to go to Google maps and see what the area looks like today.


It's in Brookville, OH. Just west of Dayton. The RoW is now a rail-trail.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2022)

Anthony V said:


> It's in Brookville, OH. Just west of Dayton. The RoW is now a rail-trail.


Thanks!


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## danasgoodstuff (Apr 21, 2022)

Given the realities of late by freight, a true cross-country through train by any route seems impractical. But a way (or three) to connect cross country without having to go through Chicago seems like a good idea if we've ever going to have something that's truly a 'National Network'.


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## Cal (Apr 21, 2022)

danasgoodstuff said:


> Given the realities of late by freight, a true cross-country through train by any route seems impractical. But a way (or three) to connect cross country without having to go through Chicago seems like a good idea if we've ever going to have something that's truly a 'National Network'.


Apparently people here have forgotten about New Orleans. Not the best routing option, but still possible.


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## joelkfla (Apr 21, 2022)

danasgoodstuff said:


> Given the realities of late by freight, a true cross-country through train by any route seems impractical. But a way (or three) to connect cross country without having to go through Chicago seems like a good idea if we've ever going to have something that's truly a 'National Network'.


There _is _a cross-country connection bypassing CHI: it's NYP-NOL-LAX. Takes an extra night, and a night's hotel stay in NOL.


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## danasgoodstuff (Apr 21, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> There _is _a cross-country connection bypassing CHI: it's NYP-NOL-LAX. Takes an extra night, and a night's hotel stay in NOL.


Yes, but not exactly straight across. Nothing north-south between the Cascades and the CONO is an issue too, but the geography, the population, and the available rails make that even tougher than new east-west routes.


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## Siegmund (Apr 22, 2022)

Video is notable to show how Amtrak's equipment shortages have persisted across time. A major long-distance train, serving NYC and a half dozen other big cities, with one sleeper and an amdinette. Arrival of Superliners temporarily eased the Heritage sleeper shortage, though it seems to me a few eastern LD trains still had Amfood in the mid 80s.

As much as I'd like to see the National come back, I can't imagine it will do so until there is a big investment in Ohio (and if CCC service comes to pass, I might well do NYC-Pittsburgh-Columbus-Cincinnati-St. Louis rather than Indianapolis.)


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## Barb Stout (Apr 22, 2022)

Dakota 400 said:


> It is much more important to get the Ohio 3C+D route established and in operation before any attempt is made to return the National Limited.


I know what the 3Cs stand for, but what is the D?
Edit: Right after I clicked "post" I realized D means Dayton.


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## fdaley (Apr 22, 2022)

Barb Stout said:


> I know what the 3Cs stand for, but what is the D?


Dayton.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 22, 2022)

danasgoodstuff said:


> Yes, but not exactly straight across. Nothing north-south between the Cascades and the CONO is an issue too, but the geography, the population, and the available rails make that even tougher than new east-west routes.


There's also nothing north-south between the CONO and the eastern seaboard, which has a much bigger (if some similarly sized cities) population and less area than the west does.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 22, 2022)

Siegmund said:


> Video is notable to show how Amtrak's equipment shortages have persisted across time. A major long-distance train, serving NYC and a half dozen other big cities, with one sleeper and an amdinette. Arrival of Superliners temporarily eased the Heritage sleeper shortage, though it seems to me a few eastern LD trains still had Amfood in the mid 80s.


I rode the National Limited in the 1977-1978 timeframe from NYC to Paoli along with a friend who rode to Lancaster. I don't recall how many sleepers it had but it still had a Heritage diner at that point which we had dinner at (one reason we chose that train). As I recall the two of us plus one older lady were the only people in the dining car even though it was dinnertime, and of course we were all seated at one table.


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## danasgoodstuff (Apr 22, 2022)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> There's also nothing north-south between the CONO and the eastern seaboard, which has a much bigger (if some similarly sized cities) population and less area than the west does.


I tend to have a fairly mid-west to west coast perspective, having lived west of the Mississippi most of my life. Amtrak may not be as NEC centric as some claim, but it's close and I don't think the shifting demographics of the nation are well mirrored by their services.


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## daybeers (Apr 22, 2022)

danasgoodstuff said:


> I don't think the shifting demographics of the nation are well mirrored by their services


Well that's for sure. Something the airlines have a huge advantage on. Though on the other hand, it's also much easier for airlines to discontinue routes or even entire airports.


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## skeptic_rugs0o (Apr 22, 2022)

I'd also appreciate a way of getting to Pittsburgh from California without such an early morning arrival as the Capitol from Chicago. Would be even cooler if it could go along the Ohio river via Weirton/Wheeling & Parkersburg and then through Nashville.


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## leccy (Apr 28, 2022)

I have a fantasy route. New York to Pittsburgh via Harrisburg (_Pennsylvanian_) then using upgraded and connected regional lines to Columbus, onto Cincinnati via Dayton and then to Louisville at a new station near the University. Reversing at Louisville it would then go west to Centralia and finally St Louis. Completely unlikely but fun to plan!


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## fdaley (Apr 28, 2022)

The loss of that 40-mile stretch of track from Dayton to Richmond really poses a problem. You can jog down 50 miles to Cincinnati, which adds more en-route population, but then you're starting to add a lot more time for through travelers to St. Louis and beyond. Add Louisville and it gets even longer, though certainly Louisville merits service as part of some route.

I do think something like the old Southwestern Limited route has potential. It could follow ex-NYC from Cleveland through Indianapolis to Terre Haute, then ex-PRR via Effingham to St. Louis. All of that appears to be a mainline freight route now. It would also use the same track as the 3-C+D corridor from Cleveland to Galion, so would benefit from any upgrades on that portion. 

Of course, all of this assumes a political will to add new LD routes, which I don't see at this point.


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## Willbridge (Apr 28, 2022)

fdaley said:


> The loss of that 40-mile stretch of track from Dayton to Richmond really poses a problem. You can jog down 50 miles to Cincinnati, which adds more en-route population, but then you're starting to add a lot more time for through travelers to St. Louis and beyond. Add Louisville and it gets even longer, though certainly Louisville merits service as part of some route.
> 
> I do think something like the old Southwestern Limited route has potential. It could follow ex-NYC from Cleveland through Indianapolis to Terre Haute, then ex-PRR via Effingham to St. Louis. All of that appears to be a mainline freight route now. It would also use the same track as the 3-C+D corridor from Cleveland to Galion, so would benefit from any upgrades on that portion.
> 
> Of course, all of this assumes a political will to add new LD routes, which I don't see at this point.


Given all the existing circumstances I think that the _Southwestern Limited _option is the best, especially if the 3-C+D Corridor was finally implemented. It could create some useful connections at Effingham.

I rode what was left of it in May 1969 (a ltwt NYC coach and a Flexi-Van) from Indianapolis to Marion, Ohio and it was a fairly smooth ride in comparison with some other Penn Central lines. Westbound it was quite punctual, waking us up each morning in the temporary WWII barracks at Fort Benjamin Harrison.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 28, 2022)

fdaley said:


> The loss of that 40-mile stretch of track from Dayton to Richmond really poses a problem.



Living in Dayton, I have wondered why that stretch of tracks west to Richmond and East to ???--not sure where--was done. Unsure what takes the place of the tracks to Richmond, but, I do know that the stretch East of Dayton was turned into a bike/walking pathway, at least partway. Who owns those stretches of real estate?


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## fdaley (Apr 29, 2022)

Dakota 400 said:


> Living in Dayton, I have wondered why that stretch of tracks west to Richmond and East to ???--not sure where--was done. Unsure what takes the place of the tracks to Richmond, but, I do know that the stretch East of Dayton was turned into a bike/walking pathway, at least partway. Who owns those stretches of real estate?



A lot of these stretches of track were lost when Conrail was rationalizing its system from the late '70s through the early '90s. Unfortunately, even routes that were once major passenger thoroughfares were torn up if they didn't generate online freight traffic and weren't vital as through freight routes. As to who owns the rights of way now, I wouldn't know.


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## fdaley (Apr 29, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Given all the existing circumstances I think that the _Southwestern Limited _option is the best, especially if the 3-C+D Corridor was finally implemented. It could create some useful connections at Effingham.
> 
> I rode what was left of it in May 1969 (a ltwt NYC coach and a Flexi-Van) from Indianapolis to Marion, Ohio and it was a fairly smooth ride in comparison with some other Penn Central lines. Westbound it was quite punctual, waking us up each morning in the temporary WWII barracks at Fort Benjamin Harrison.



The Southwestern Limited route is a good one for linking Indianapolis and St. Louis to New York state and New England. But the old National Limited route was better as a straight shot from Philadelphia and the mid-Atlantic, and of course it took in Columbus and Dayton too. It would just be a lot more work to put it back together, and it might not even be possible if chunks of it have been converted into trails.


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## Larry H. (Apr 30, 2022)

I agree about the passenger demand on that route. I rode it several time east and it was filled. In fact the conductor put me and my traveling companion in a sleeper due to no seats left in the coachs. And yes it was a rather poor excuse for a long distance train, no real diner or lounge and it did run somewhat behind schedule. I don't know how the routes run but it might be possible to go though Salem Il. on the CSX route which for some reason they quit using a couple years ago by now, but the track and accessory equipment is still in working order and nearly new. I never understood why they upgraded all the switching and other items along the tracks only to stop using it about six months later?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 30, 2022)

leccy said:


> I have a fantasy route. New York to Pittsburgh via Harrisburg (_Pennsylvanian_) then using upgraded and connected regional lines to Columbus, onto Cincinnati via Dayton and then to Louisville at a new station near the University. Reversing at Louisville it would then go west to Centralia and finally St Louis. Completely unlikely but fun to plan!



How about that route to Cincinnati and then to Indianapolis and Chicago?


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## Palmland (Apr 30, 2022)

Taking the route of the original National Limited (B&O) from Cincinnati to St. Louis would be the most direct. In the late 60's, Chessie rerouted the National Limited off the tradition route over the B&O (portions abandoned) through West Virginia to the C&O route that the Cardinal uses. At that time the schedule had the National Lts/Georg Washington leaving Washington at 4:40pm, Cincinnati at 7:30am, and St. Louis at 2:20pm. CSX has significantly downgraded the line from Cinci to St. Louis with sporadic local service but given enough money it could be rebuilt to essentially a passenger train route. The City of New Orleans crosses it at Odin, IL, 8 miles north of Centralia.which would provide some connectivity options.

But, in the real world, the best option is the Cardinal to Indianapolis, CSX to St. Louis, Not a new idea as it was discussed at length a few years ago as noted in this thread.


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## fredmcain (Aug 12, 2022)

In my own personal, honest and humble opinion, bringing back the National Limited is NOT feasible nor is it feasible to bring back any other L.D. trains until and unless Amtrak acquires more equipment. And as of right now, Amtrak does not appear to be seriously pursuing this.


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## dlagrua (Aug 12, 2022)

While some of the National Limited route has been torn up, the Norfolk Southern restored the former PRR mainline through Ohio. I believe that route ran originated in Pittsburgh and headed West through Ohio and Indiana with stops in Youngstown, Canton, Akron, Lima, Crestline, Fostoria, and in Indiana in Ft Wayne, Napanee, Warsaw, Valpariso, and Gary. While not the National Limited route it does illustrate that those states can be crossed Westward and South of the Lakeshore and Capitol Ltd route. There are tracks to Indianapolis from that route and tracks west from Indianapolis but Its quite a stretch that we will see passenger service there again.


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## danasgoodstuff (Aug 12, 2022)

I think we need a map; good State by State maps are relatively easy to find, but good regional ones are harder. And I wouldn't know if what I was looking at was truly accurate and current.


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## Dakota 400 (Aug 12, 2022)

Why is there any discussion of the restoration of the National Limited through Ohio? It isn't going to happen in my lifetime. Efforts must be placed on the 3C+D plan for my State to benefit. Frittering any lobbying, etc. for anything else is counterproductive to establishing new Amtrak service that is needed.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 12, 2022)

I can't help but wonder if we're going about this the wrong way: the push should be for local/regional trains linking these cities and once those are successes it would be reasonable to demand longer distance, especially if ticket sales proved the utility of the route (might even get some surprises on routes that way).


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## uncleboots (Aug 13, 2022)

Montana Senator Jon Tester mentioned several months ago he will bring up the possibility of the restoration of the National Limted and the North Coast Hiawatha I believe his reasoning was he wanted some of Amtrak’s Original Routes Restored.


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## danasgoodstuff (Aug 13, 2022)

uncleboots said:


> Montana Senator Jon Tester mentioned several months ago he will bring up the possibility of the restoration of the National Limted and the North Coast Hiawatha I believe his reasoning was he wanted some of Amtrak’s Original Routes Restored.


Well, he has an obvious interest in the North Coast Hiawatha since it would serve the part of his State where the population is, but I can't see his interest in the national limited unless he's just trying to horse trade or has visions of a grand national network with north/south routes out of MT and I don't know that he has that big an interest in passenger rail. But that's interesting. I'd take the North Coast probably myself at least once, but don't know that the National Limited would be of more than limited interest to me, unless it got to Cincy at a better time.


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## Dakota 400 (Aug 13, 2022)

danasgoodstuff said:


> the National Limited would be of more than limited interest to me, unless it got to Cincy at a better time.



Not sure that Cincinnati was on the route of the National Limited.


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## PaTrainFan (Aug 13, 2022)

Dakota 400 said:


> Not sure that Cincinnati was on the route of the National Limited.


Correct, it was not. It ran via Columbus and Dayton.


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## railiner (Aug 13, 2022)

dlagrua said:


> While some of the National Limited route has been torn up, the Norfolk Southern restored the former PRR mainline through Ohio. I believe that route ran originated in Pittsburgh and headed West through Ohio and Indiana with stops in Youngstown, Canton, Akron, Lima, Crestline, Fostoria, and in Indiana in Ft Wayne, Napanee, Warsaw, Valpariso, and Gary. While not the National Limited route it does illustrate that those states can be crossed Westward and South of the Lakeshore and Capitol Ltd route. There are tracks to Indianapolis from that route and tracks west from Indianapolis but Its quite a stretch that we will see passenger service there again.


I think you're mixing up the former PRR Amtrak Broadway Limited route between Pittsburgh and Chicago which ran Pittsburgh-Canton-Crestline-Lima-Fort Wayne-Valparaiso-Gary- Chicago, with the last B&O routed Amtrak Broadway which ran Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Akron-Fostoria-Nappanee-Hammond-Chicago.

The Conrail routed National Limited ran Pittsburgh-Steubenville-Columbus-Dayton-Indianapolis-Terre Haute-Effingham-St. Louis (and onto the former MP to Kansas City, with a thru sleeper on to Los Angeles.

The original B&O National Limited ran New York (Jersey City)-Washington-Cumberland-Grafton-Parkersburg-Cincinnati-Vincennes-Flora-St. Louis.

Amtrak ran a Washington-Cincinnati train on the B&O route (the Shenandoah), until 1981. It connected at Cincinnati with the Cardinal and the Mountaineer. CSX has abandoned part of that route since that time.


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## danasgoodstuff (Aug 13, 2022)

railiner said:


> I think you're mixing up the former PRR Amtrak Broadway Limited route between Pittsburgh and Chicago which ran Pittsburgh-Canton-Crestline-Lima-Fort Wayne-Valparaiso-Gary- Chicago, with the last B&O routed Amtrak Broadway which ran Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Akron-Fostoria-Nappanee-Hammond-Chicago.
> 
> The Conrail routed National Limited ran Pittsburgh-Steubenville-Columbus-Dayton-Indianapolis-Terre Haute-Effingham-St. Louis (and onto the former MP to Kansas City, with a thru sleeper on to Los Angeles.
> 
> ...


This is why we need maps. I have only the vaguest idea how these routes differ, much less which of them might be workable now.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2022)

Fenway said:


> This is my holy grail, a train from New York to Los Angeles that does not involve Chicago.
> 
> I believe it can work


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2022)

A lot of AU'ers would undoubtedly love to see a coast to coast service restored... and attempts with the Sunset to FLA have gone nowhere... the trackage wiped out by a single storm; Hurricane Katrina... never to be restored and used again? Seems like just another part of the trend towards passenger service elimination.

Now... the possibility of NYP to LAX is certainly intriguing but without CHI I don't see how they could get the ridership it would require. A routing directly through STL and KC certainly doesn't seem to have the arterial connections found at CHI... and would then double up on the SWC route in KC.

But I do like the idea of pairing up with the Capitol with the Eagle through CHI which has been discussed before; and would allow for Superliner service all the way through... certainly energizing ridership for both trains.

And I'd bet the ridership would be 'through the roof!' Not just between WAS and LAX, but single train service for intermediate pairs as well, such as PIT and STL and etc.

That said, Amtrak should not only upgrade its deteriorating offerings on both trains... but should take it beyond with a premier train concept... including the SSL, dining car, and perhaps another entire car devoted to cafe service... plus additional sleepers.

A lot of dreaming goes on at AU but wouldn't many of us like to see restoration of coast to coast service on the Sunset Limited, and ALSO a match-up of the Capitol and TE... making them both premier trains???

Ya Betch'a!!!


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## Cal (Aug 13, 2022)

20th Century Rider said:


> A lot of AU'ers would undoubtedly love to see a coast to coast service restored... and attempts with the Sunset to FLA have gone nowhere... the trackage wiped out by a single storm; Hurricane Katrina... never to be restored and used again? Seems like just another part of the trend towards passenger service elimination.
> 
> Now... the possibility of NYP to LAX is certainly intriguing but without CHI I don't see how they could get the ridership it would require. A routing directly through STL and KC certainly doesn't seem to have the arterial connections found at CHI... and would then double up on the SWC route in KC.
> 
> ...


I don’t think the Eagle is the ideal choice for a coast to coast train considering its 65 hours from CHI-LAX. Adding more to that is a tough sell.


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## uncleboots (Aug 14, 2022)

Okay I found the article.Tester added an amendment to the Surface Transportation Investment Act, which would require The Department Of Transportation (Not Amtrak) to evaluate the restoration of The National Limited, The North Coast Hiawatha, along with the other discontinued Amtrak Long Distance Trains. The bill passed the Senate Commerce Committee . That was as of June 2021.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 14, 2022)

Cal said:


> I don’t think the Eagle is the ideal choice for a coast to coast train considering its 65 hours from CHI-LAX. Adding more to that is a tough sell.


We can only daydream about a cross country service; knowing it would probably need infrastructure for superliners; and while the TE would take an extra day making it that tougher sell... what about the SWC? At one time it was as much of popular rail culture as the 20th Century Limited in the East.

But here's the problem... track issues are threatening to the SWC all together as the owning freight company no longer uses the trackage. Who knows... remember the threat of that 'bus bridge' between KC and ABQ? Would congress step in? Who knows as the government is preoccupied with so much other 'stuff.' 

Then there's the very popular and always booked CZ... but would a through train to WAS overburden it's already full capacity? Lots of possibilities for daydreaming!

Meanwhile restoration of the Sunset to FLA remains undone.

What do others think???


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## danasgoodstuff (Aug 14, 2022)

I think a link westward from DC could be a good thing. To St. Louis and on to KC perhaps. And maybe one west from Atlanta to Dallas as well. But given the struggle to get anything to run on time and the havoc created when things get way backed up, I don't know that a single coast to coast train by any route is a great idea. It would eat up an inordinate amount of resources, both physical and human to operate. Better to have connecting corridor trains with enough service to allow for disruption without catastrophic consequences. Chicago is a natural pivot point for much service, but having everything go through there is a little dysfunctional. Also, using the same number of train sets and personnel to try out several corridor services would allow for trying something else more easily if one thing didn't generate sufficient usage. Amtrak needs some successes to build on.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 14, 2022)

20th Century Rider said:


> track issues are threatening to the SWC all together as the owning freight company no longer uses the trackage.


That is pretty much old news. BNSF came to an agreement with Amtrak and the states of Colorado and New Mexico that if the states and Amtrak would fund capital improvements on the line (Raton and Glorietta subs), such as CWR and replacing signals, BNSF would continue to maintain it. The capital improvements reduce maintenance costs. Anderson tried to weasel out of it even after Amtrak got grants for it, but Amtrak ultimately came through.

BNSF track and signal gangs are working on the improvements on the line right now and have been for the last couple of years.

The line is now in no immediate danger.

At much higher risk is the CZ route west of Grand Junction, which has kind of flown under the radar. UP runs no through freights at all there, the only traffic is the CZ and one BNSF trackage rights train. Traffic is light enough that PTC is not required and is not implemented there. I think the only reason why UP is keeping it is that per the UP-SP merger conditions, if they abandon/embargo it, BNSF would get its rights transferred to the Overland Route and UP really doesn't want that.


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## railiner (Aug 14, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> At much higher risk is the CZ route west of Grand Junction, which has kind of flown under the radar. UP runs no through freights at all there, the only traffic is the CZ and one BNSF trackage rights train. Traffic is light enough that PTC is not required and is not implemented there. I think the only reason why UP is keeping it is that per the UP-SP merger conditions, if they abandon/embargo it, BNSF would get its rights transferred to the Overland Route and UP really doesn't want that.


I doubt if the BNSF would want to acquire it, either, or they would have asked for it as a condition of the UP-SP merger...they're better off with the trackage rights agreement they did get.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 14, 2022)

railiner said:


> I doubt if the BNSF would want to acquire it, either, or they would have asked for it as a condition of the UP-SP merger...they're better off with the trackage rights agreement they did get.


Yeah, I don't think they want it either. If UP abandoned/embargoed the west end of the former D&RGW, I doubt BNSF would pick it up. They'd happily accept trackage rights on UP's Overland Route, which UP would have to provide if they closed the former D&RGW. I honestly think UP not wanting BNSF on the Overland Route is the only thing keeping the line open.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 14, 2022)

20th Century Rider said:


> A lot of AU'ers would undoubtedly love to see a coast to coast service restored... and attempts with the Sunset to FLA have gone nowhere... the trackage wiped out by a single storm; Hurricane Katrina... never to be restored and used again? Seems like just another part of the trend towards passenger service elimination.
> 
> Now... the possibility of NYP to LAX is certainly intriguing but without CHI I don't see how they could get the ridership it would require. A routing directly through STL and KC certainly doesn't seem to have the arterial connections found at CHI... and would then double up on the SWC route in KC.
> 
> ...


I see no reason for either proposal. The Sunset East was basically a failure. There's no need to make CL and TE into one train.


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## Cal (Aug 14, 2022)

MikefromCrete said:


> I see no reason for either proposal. The Sunset East was basically a failure. There's no need to make CL and TE into one train.


Didn't the Sunset East have absolutely horrible timekeeping? Maybe with better timekeeping and speeds it a transcon train would fare better?


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 14, 2022)

Cal said:


> Didn't the Sunset East have absolutely horrible timekeeping? Maybe with better timekeeping and speeds it a transcon train would fare better?


The Sunset East was Infamous for 24 Hour Delays, and based on what's going on with Railroads in this Country now, I would look for such a Train or Thru Sleeper to be just as Bad or Worse!!!


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 15, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> The Sunset East was Infamous for 24 Hour Delays, and based on what's going on with Railroads in this Country now, I would look for such a Train or Thru Sleeper to be just as Bad or Worse!!!


Service complaints by so many AU'ers are a sign that Amtrak should prioritize repairing, upgrading, and acquiring rolling stock, as well as trackage... to simply maintain a decent service level. True... since Anderson, there has been nothing but deterioration of passenger service that discourages ridership. Route expansion is fun to speculate and discuss... but only after operational problems are corrected.


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## toddinde (Aug 15, 2022)

The National Limited was originally intended to run through to Denver on UP’s Kansas Pacific line. That would have provided excellent service to Manhattan and Topeka, KS. But this concept is pretty easily replicated today. The Cardinal has frequently been considered for a St Louis terminus. But why not Denver? The only stretches without Amtrak service would be Indianapolis to St Louis and Kansas City to Denver, and both those lines are in excellent condition. That train could theoretically connect to the California Zephyr if we get timekeeping addressed, the Southwest Chief in Kansas City, and the City of New Orleans in Effingham. That would be a marvelous ride and also create some amazing connectivity throughout the Amtrak system. It’s low hanging fruit that sadly, Amtrak’s current management and board, lack the vision to carry out.


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## JWM (Aug 15, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> That is pretty much old news. BNSF came to an agreement with Amtrak and the states of Colorado and New Mexico that if the states and Amtrak would fund capital improvements on the line (Raton and Glorietta subs), such as CWR and replacing signals, BNSF would continue to maintain it. The capital improvements reduce maintenance costs. Anderson tried to weasel out of it even after Amtrak got grants for it, but Amtrak ultimately came through.
> 
> BNSF track and signal gangs are working on the improvements on the line right now and have been for the last couple of years.
> 
> ...





toddinde said:


> The National Limited was originally intended to run through to Denver on UP’s Kansas Pacific line. That would have provided excellent service to Manhattan and Topeka, KS. But this concept is pretty easily replicated today. The Cardinal has frequently been considered for a St Louis terminus. But why not Denver? The only stretches without Amtrak service would be Indianapolis to St Louis and Kansas City to Denver, and both those lines are in excellent condition. That train could theoretically connect to the California Zephyr if we get timekeeping addressed, the Southwest Chief in Kansas City, and the City of New Orleans in Effingham. That would be a marvelous ride and also create some amazing connectivity throughout the Amtrak system. It’s low hanging fruit that sadly, Amtrak’s current management and board, lack the vision to carry out.


The original route of the Amtrak "National Limited" ran from Colombus, OH and Indianapolis. That track is gone to my knowledge. On another note, after all these years I could never understand how Union Pacific was allowed to take control of the Rio Grande and Western Pacific. BNSF should have those two lines to compete with UP.


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## danasgoodstuff (Aug 15, 2022)

JWM said:


> The original route of the Amtrak "National Limited" ran from Colombus, OH and Indianapolis. That track is gone to my knowledge. On another note, after all these years I could never understand how Union Pacific was allowed to take control of the Rio Grande and Western Pacific. BNSF should have those two lines to compete with UP.


Yes, but it could run through Cincy (which has a nice station but inconvenient schedules now) and connect to other things there and continue on to Louisville, St. Louis, etc. But as much as I think there should be ways to go west without necessarily going through Chicago, I don't think it should necessarily be one train the whole way through.


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## toddinde (Aug 15, 2022)

JWM said:


> The original route of the Amtrak "National Limited" ran from Colombus, OH and Indianapolis. That track is gone to my knowledge. On another note, after all these years I could never understand how Union Pacific was allowed to take control of the Rio Grande and Western Pacific. BNSF should have those two lines to compete with UP.


Right on the National Limited. That’s why the Cardinal is the best we could do easily right now. Totally agree about the approvals of the absurd consolidations that killed railroad competition. Today’s STB is much better, but it’s late in the game.


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## toddinde (Aug 15, 2022)

danasgoodstuff said:


> Yes, but it could run through Cincy (which has a nice station but inconvenient schedules now) and connect to other things there and continue on to Louisville, St. Louis, etc. But as much as I think there should be ways to go west without necessarily going through Chicago, I don't think it should necessarily be one train the whole way through.


And it would connect to the Three C corridor in Cincy which would be an effective connection.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 15, 2022)

JWM said:


> The original route of the Amtrak "National Limited" ran from Colombus, OH and Indianapolis. That track is gone to my knowledge. On another note, after all these years I could never understand how Union Pacific was allowed to take control of the Rio Grande and Western Pacific. BNSF should have those two lines to compete with UP.


STB required trackage rights over both for the BNSF.

It wasn't one merger. First, UP took over MP and WP in the Mop Up merger in the 80s. Then Anschutz/D&RGW took over the financially prostrate SP, and renamed the surviving company SP. Finally, UP took over the SP, which now included the former D&RGW.


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## west point (Aug 16, 2022)

If the Crescent went thru Mobile and Montgomery to ATL and there was service from ATL to JAX the enrooute time would be be same as the Sunset east. . Pensacola and Tallahasse would be missed but traffic potential thru ATL is much greater.

The present route of the Crescent would work as well.


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