# Elderly lady kicked off Eagle.



## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2019)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abc7ne...ff-train-is-victim-of-discrimination/5280362/

Saw this over on trainorders. Very odd story. Not sure why she was allowed to board with 2 dogs in the first place.


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## saxman (May 3, 2019)

I saw this on a social media post. One guy commented that he was on this train and said there was way more to this story. He didn't offer any details though. Conductors don't take kicking someone off a train lightly.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2019)

saxman said:


> I saw this on a social media post. One guy commented that he was on this train and said there was way more to this story. He didn't offer any details though. Conductors don't take kicking someone off a train lightly.



I can imagine there is more to the story, however I disagree with your last statement. I saw a man get kicked off the crescent for simply arguing with the conductor about a closed coach. Sure he was acting like a whiny 2 year old, but he wasn’t being violent or even loud about it and she literally said “if you don’t like how I run my train you’re not riding it” and she had police escort him off the train. I saw the whole thing, it was simply a power play.


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## desertflyer (May 3, 2019)

2-4 people each month are being thrown off in Alpine? From a train that only operates 3 times a week? That surprising to me.

Does Amtrak ever do internal investigations to see if a conductor acted appropriately? It seems like Amtrak should have at least responded to the reporter with a promise that they'll investigate what happened. Instead they provided a list of all the reasons passengers can be kicked off and gave her a refund.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 3, 2019)

saxman said:


> Conductors don't take kicking someone off a train lightly.


&


crescent-zephyr said:


> I saw a man get kicked off the crescent for simply arguing with the conductor about a closed coach...I saw the whole thing, it was simply a power play.



In my experience most conductors don't seem all that anxious to kick people off just for the hell of it. That being said, if a given conductor were on a power trip it would be pretty easy for them to misuse and abuse their power with little or no meaningful recourse for aggrieved passengers.


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## PVD (May 3, 2019)

Amtrak is not obligated to accept support dogs, and even if they were, the article indicates they were support for her late husband, not her. They didn't belong on the train in the first place, and the only dogs not in carriers on a train are supposed to be real service dogs. And pets in carriers are not permitted in sleepers.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2019)

I’m not aware of any business that is not obligated to accept service dogs?

(I agree that in this case, it seems odd they were permitted to begin with).


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## trainman74 (May 3, 2019)

PVD said:


> Amtrak is not obligated to accept support dogs...





crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m not aware of any business that is not obligated to accept service dogs?



They're obligated to accept _service_ dogs. They are not obligated to accept _emotional support_ dogs.


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## PVD (May 3, 2019)

The ADA requires that service dogs are permitted in almost every situation. Even if these were service and not support, the dogs were stated to have been her late husbands', except in special situations, the service dog is permitted to accompany the person it is trained to assist, not someone else. When it is not with its "charge" it is not privileged. Some jurisdictions have added support animal requirements and the Air Carrier Access Act forced airlines to accept them also. That has resulted in the problem of fraudulently presented (as emotional support) animals because some people don't want to pay, and some people don't want to keep animals in carriers, both of which would be required if they were pets. The sad thing is that people with legitimate needs will likely see increased scrutiny and regulation as a result of reaction to the actions of disgusting selfish people.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2019)

trainman74 said:


> They're obligated to accept _service_ dogs. They are not obligated to accept _emotional support_ dogs.



Ah yes. I notice the wording now.


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## Seaboard92 (May 3, 2019)

When I’m not on the rails I work as a vet tech. And I can’t begin to tell you how many people are attempting to take advantage of the emotional support animals. We’ve actually been talking lately about requiring a note from a mental health doctor before signing papers to make it a support animal. 

Honestly I think we need to regulate what animals can and can not be emotional support animals


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## Michigan Mom (May 3, 2019)

So tired of these fake ESAs. It has got to be a major headache for the employees to try and navigate given the consequences if a situation isn't handled correctly. Or if there's even a perception it isn't handled correctly.
Recent trip on the Wolverine out of Chicago, a woman scammed her way into Business class with a fake service animal. Not sure but I think she claimed she was military and may have been upgraded for free (not sure about that part). She wasn't in uniform. When they boarded, the dog was pulling and straining on the leash, and she struggled to control him. My son had a sandwich in a paper bag which the dog made a beeline for, and had to be dragged away. Two clues right there as service animals are very well trained to tune out all distractions and only focus on the person they are trained to assist. All the way to Ann Arbor, the dog was panting and whining (clue number 3). I felt sorry for the dog (not the owner) and the nervous animal made for an unpleasant trip as they were right in front of us and impossible to tune out the noise. Later I saw the conductor in the cafe car and asked him about why the dog was on board. He told me his paperwork said the dog was a service animal. He had this look in his eye of "what the hell can I do." I certainly regretted spending the money for Biz class.


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## PVD (May 3, 2019)

There is a major distinction between ESA and service animals. Amtrak does not permit ESA. But the ADA is very restrictive in what you are permitted to ask someone who claims an animal is a service animal, since the law does not require registration or certification. And service or not, if the animal is not under control or causing a problem it can be thrown off. But almost nobody will ever do that because of the fear of backlash, they know even if they are right their bosses will fold up like beach chairs after Labor Day.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2019)

Yeah, business class is still such a gamble, you just have better odds. (A gamble of having a quiet and calm experience). 

I agree with the service / support animal situation. Trained service animals should be allowed everywhere at all times no questions asked. 

Any other type of “support animal” is a totally different situation.


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## Michigan Mom (May 3, 2019)

You're allowed to ask "What service does the animal provide for you?" or something similar. It's one of those questions that only sound good in a training class and have little-to-none real world applicability. So I get what you're saying, about the fear of backlash, which is exactly why I didn't bring up the incident to Amtrak. It would only cause an issue for the conductor and that would be the end of it.


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## OlympianHiawatha (May 3, 2019)

The entire ADA needs to be town down and redone to close all the loopholes, especially on who is allowed to have and use a handicap parking tag. And clear definitions of support/service animals and where they can and cannot go need to be addressed as well. Commercial transportation and it users are being victimized by scammer and ther so-called support animals.


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## Skyline (May 3, 2019)

The pastor seems to believe this was at least partially motivated by the elderly woman's race. It's possible. There are plenty of people in positions of "power" who are racist. We armchair / internet observers have no way of knowing.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 3, 2019)

I don't really care if it's an "emotional support animal" or some other vaguely defined service or benefit; I mainly care that the animal is fully trained for calm, quiet, and controllable behavior in public. That should be the primary standard for acceptance in my view. The ADA's thin-skinned restrictions on certifications and vetting makes even this relatively moderate standard difficult to implement and verify in a practical manner and that's a bad situation for everyone IMO.


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## RebelRider (May 3, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> You're allowed to ask "What service does the animal provide for you?" or something similar. It's one of those questions that only sound good in a training class and have little-to-none real world applicability. So I get what you're saying, about the fear of backlash, which is exactly why I didn't bring up the incident to Amtrak. It would only cause an issue for the conductor and that would be the end of it.



The exact verbiage we're supposed to ask is, "What task or function has your animal been trained to perform for you?" Seizure alert, guide dog, medication reminders, blood sugar, etc. I've denied boarding more than once for emotional support animals. I've put barking service dogs off and an emotional support dog making a ruckus in the sleepers. I've also dispatched a small parrot (parakeet?), a huge gerbil hidden in a purse and a pair of sugar gliders from the train. Found a turtle, too. 

One passenger stood on the platform waving their "official government" United States of America Emotional Support Animal quoting their "federal rights" as I denied boarding. This was after multiple attempts to steer the right answer of a trained task. They just kept quoting emotional and comfort support. The dog could have fit in a carrier and traveled as a pet. I'm still waiting for the promised lawsuit. 

For all those situations, there have been many more where passengers gave the right answer and traveled, even though we all knew the animal wasn't performing any tasks or service. The animal was well enough behaved that removal wasn't warranted.

The thing about legit service animals is the passengers are quiet and kind, never being a bother. The animals board and quietly disappear at their owners feet. They don't dress their service animal in a vest emblazoned with WORKING SERVICE ANIMAL. They certainly don't wave ID cards nor shove service animal papers in my face.


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## wwchi (May 4, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> So tired of these fake ESAs. It has got to be a major headache for the employees to try and navigate given the consequences if a situation isn't handled correctly. Or if there's even a perception it isn't handled correctly.
> Recent trip on the Wolverine out of Chicago, a woman scammed her way into Business class with a fake service animal. Not sure but I think she claimed she was military and may have been upgraded for free (not sure about that part). She wasn't in uniform. When they boarded, the dog was pulling and straining on the leash, and she struggled to control him. My son had a sandwich in a paper bag which the dog made a beeline for, and had to be dragged away. Two clues right there as service animals are very well trained to tune out all distractions and only focus on the person they are trained to assist. All the way to Ann Arbor, the dog was panting and whining (clue number 3). I felt sorry for the dog (not the owner) and the nervous animal made for an unpleasant trip as they were right in front of us and impossible to tune out the noise. Later I saw the conductor in the cafe car and asked him about why the dog was on board. He told me his paperwork said the dog was a service animal. He had this look in his eye of "what the hell can I do." I certainly regretted spending the money for Biz class.



I think I may have seen this same woman on the Wolverine once...noticed her walking to the train with a very entitled look with her dog...of course it could be a totally different person but I take that train all the time and in all the years of taking it only once have seen such a thing.


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## Rasputin (May 4, 2019)

In order to protect itself against lawsuits, I assume that Amtrak requires conductors or other employees to file a report whenever a passenger is ejected from a train. 

In the past I have been asked by a conductor to write a statement of what I had observed about an incident which resulted in two belligerent and profane drunks being removed from an Amtrak train. Were we glad to get rid of those two!


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## RebelRider (May 4, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> In order to protect itself against lawsuits, I assume that Amtrak requires conductors or other employees to file a report whenever a passenger is ejected from a train.
> 
> In the past I have been asked by a conductor to write a statement of what I had observed about an incident which resulted in two belligerent and profane drunks being removed from an Amtrak train. Were we glad to get rid of those two!



We have paperwork for everything.


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## Dakota 400 (May 4, 2019)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> The entire ADA needs to be town down and redone to close all the loopholes, especially on who is allowed to have and use a handicap parking tag. And clear definitions of support/service animals and where they can and cannot go need to be addressed as well. Commercial transportation and it users are being victimized by scammer and ther so-called support animals.



If someone is scamming the situation, yes, something ought to be done concerning that issue. But, to throw out the entire ADA and start over: that's too extreme given the political situation in the Country at this time. The Administration is looking for regulations to alter or eliminate. Eliminating the current ADA and starting over might not be in the best interests of those who currently benefit from the ADA.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 4, 2019)

Agreed. Over all the ADA is providing a great service. The fact that some people are taking advantage in order to get their pets on board or a better parking space is not a reason to tear the whole thing down.


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## spinnaker (May 4, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I don't really care if it's an "emotional support animal" or some other vaguely defined service or benefit; I mainly care that the animal is fully trained for calm, quiet, and controllable behavior in public. That should be the primary standard for acceptance in my view. The ADA's thin-skinned restrictions on certifications and vetting makes even this relatively moderate standard difficult to implement and verify in a practical manner and that's a bad situation for everyone IMO.




And there is the key. You should be permitted to bring your animal on for whatever ADA reason as long as the animal is properly trained and certified. It costs thousands to train a guide dog. Many guide dogs are dismissed early in training due to some rather minor behavioral issues. It is an extremely selective process. Now an "emotional support" animal likely not need as stringent as training as a guide dog but is it is still going to be expensive. You want to pay the cost to get a dog trained and certified then go ahead and bring it aboard.

When people need to pay the big bucks to get an animal aboard just watch how many that will choose to leave poochie at home.

Frankly if you are that emotionally unstable that you need the emotional support of an animal then you probably should not be traveling.


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## Larry H. (May 4, 2019)

Back to the removal of passenger stories... In the month before Amtrak took over from the rail lines we were on the train from Chicago to Toronto. We had a seat in the parlor car as it was called then. A woman kept coming in and sitting down but had no ticket for that service. The conductor ask her to return to the coach section she had a ticket for. It was also very obvious she had been drinking pretty heavily. On about her third return to our car the Conductor took her to the vestibule, stopped the train and dropped her off!. I don't know what happened to her from there but we seemed to be in some pretty remote territory, I was quite surprised he would do it.


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## MARC Rider (May 4, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I can imagine there is more to the story, however I disagree with your last statement. I saw a man get kicked off the crescent for simply arguing with the conductor about a closed coach. Sure he was acting like a whiny 2 year old, but he wasn’t being violent or even loud about it and she literally said “if you don’t like how I run my train you’re not riding it” and she had police escort him off the train. I saw the whole thing, it was simply a power play.



I once saw a whole family get kicked off the Silver Star because Pappa was pissed that he couldn't get his family diner reservations (we were all in coach, the PA wasn't working, and, of course, nobody from the diner came through the coaches to offer dinner rezzies. This was a packed train, President's Day weekend or thereabouts. Oh yes, and this was back when the Star had a diner.) The guy didn't seem too worked up about it, just pissed, he and the conductor went into the vestibule to have words, and the next thing we know, the train is stopping somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Southside Virginia, and we see police lights flashing, and this family is packing their stuff and detraining. I overheard one of the kids tell some other kids that they were going to be put on "the next train," which I presumed to be the Meteor. I guess they were getting a free ride to Rocky Mount to catch it, too. What seems weird is why involve the police if there's no cause for arrest? It's possible that the guy said something inflammatory to the conductor, but by assessment of the conductor (who got on in Washington) was that he was on a power trip. Or who knows, maybe the conductor offered them the opportunity of a real southern dinner in an authentic small-town Andy-Griffith Style southern cafe and a free ride in a squad car to Rocky Mount. Anyway, it put us behind schedule, but thanks to the magic of padding, we did arrive in Tampa (which is where I was going) on time.


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## Seaboard92 (May 4, 2019)

Speaking again to the service animal vs support animal the problem we have is that there are very few regulations for instance. A parent came to our clinic today wanting us to make their cat an emotional support animal so they could take it to college. We turned them down of course because the only reason they wanted a certificate was to take the cat to college. Not because they had an actual need verified by a doctor. 

The problem with these ESA’s is the fact the ADA does not regulate them. And by not regulating it people attempt to bring their beloved pets along as an actual service animal. Which creates problems for people who actually have a justifiable service animal. That is what I have a problem with.


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## Michigan Mom (May 4, 2019)

wwchi said:


> I think I may have seen this same woman on the Wolverine once...noticed her walking to the train with a very entitled look with her dog...of course it could be a totally different person but I take that train all the time and in all the years of taking it only once have seen such a thing.



"entitled" is a good description of her demeanor, once onboard, she was trying to divert attention from her dog when it was obvious this wasn't a service animal.


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## ScouseAndy (May 5, 2019)

spinnaker said:


> Frankly if you are that emotionally unstable that you need the emotional support of an animal then you probably should not be traveling.



Mental health is the biggest killer of men under 35. If a emotional support animal saves a life then it worth 1,000,000,000,000 fake emotional support animals onboard an amtrak train.

And to suggest that someone suffering from a form of mental health shouldnt be allowed to travel is discriminatory and this attitude is one of the reasons why mental health still has such a stigma and why so many young men take their own life rather than seek help from the medical community.


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## The Iron Horse (May 5, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> Mental health is the biggest killer of men under 35. If a emotional support animal saves a life then it worth 1,000,000,000,000 fake emotional support animals onboard an amtrak train.
> 
> And to suggest that someone suffering from a form of mental health shouldnt be allowed to travel is discriminatory and this attitude is one of the reasons why mental health still has such a stigma and why so many young men take their own life rather than seek help from the medical community.



Bingo. Took the words out of my mouth.

I'll add this: I have zero tolerance for those who discriminate against innocent people merely because god forbid there's something about them that's (EEK!) different in any way, especially if their needs can be easily accommodated.
(Of course there are loads of entitled types out there who take things too far. Disabled or not, im not talking about them).

Someone merely requiring the comfort of an animal to make their trip do-able (or even just more enjoyable) is not asking for much! I would simply require that they be responsible about it, bring vaccine records, have their animal receive some sort of training (it does not need to be that expensive), and do their best to keep the animal from bothering other passengers. It's generally pretty easy to do.

With simple, reasonable, requirements like that, service animal or not, irresponsible people would be out of excuses.

Oh and you know what? Unruly or well behaved, I would actually prefer to sit next to an animal. Anything's better than screaming babies, entitled brats, perverts, junkies, belligerent drunks, narcissists, rude anti-social types, or any of the other types of humans causing problems for the rest of us on trains, planes and basically everywhere.

As for the elderly woman in the story, I really hope there was a lot more to it than that. She did violate the rules, but *if* everything else was ok, I think it was wrong to just kick her out like that.


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## Metra Electric Rider (May 5, 2019)

So you guys are in favor of discrimination against people who have allergies that might kill them if exposed to a dog or cat and expected their journey to be animal free?


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## Skyline (May 5, 2019)

spinnaker said:


> And there is the key. You should be permitted to bring your animal on for whatever ADA reason as long as the animal is properly trained and certified. It costs thousands to train a guide dog. Many guide dogs are dismissed early in training due to some rather minor behavioral issues. It is an extremely selective process. Now an "emotional support" animal likely not need as stringent as training as a guide dog but is it is still going to be expensive. You want to pay the cost to get a dog trained and certified then go ahead and bring it aboard.
> 
> When people need to pay the big bucks to get an animal aboard just watch how many that will choose to leave poochie at home.
> 
> Frankly if you are that emotionally unstable that you need the emotional support of an animal then you probably should not be traveling.




You had me until the last paragraph. Legitimate emotional support animals exist so people CAN be out in society. You want to make them ineligible to travel? Shameful.

No doubt there is abuse of the ADA. Let's weed out the abusers, not penalize the legits.


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## SarahZ (May 5, 2019)

spinnaker said:


> Frankly if you are that emotionally unstable that you need the emotional support of an animal then you probably should not be traveling.


I want to be there when you say that to the face of a veteran traveling with a PTSD dog.


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## ScouseAndy (May 5, 2019)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> So you guys are in favor of discrimination against people who have allergies that might kill them if exposed to a dog or cat and expected their journey to be animal free?



But no journey can be expected to be animal free, just like any visit to a restaurant or just walking out side could never be animal free. 

Strangely whilst I could easily find out 150-200 people die each year in the USA due to peanut allegies I was unable to even find even an approximate number who die from coming into contact with pets.


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## mitako (May 5, 2019)

There was an older lady with a standard poodle "support animal" on the Texas Eagle when hubby and I rode in March. We spoke to her and admired the poodle while on a fresh-air break. Woman said she was blind and the dog was her support animal. Back on the train, maybe half an hour later, the woman suddenly showed up at the door to our roomette, and proceeded to bizarrely rant and rave about politics -- hubby and I had never once mentioned this topic to her and did not engage her at any point, nor are our own leanings obvious -- while her dog lunged into the roomette and climbed all over me and hubby while frantically trying to lick our faces. At that point it was clear to me that the dog was NOT any type of trained service animal and that the woman was a little touched in the head. I finally had to ask her to leave, as her tirade showed no signs of slowing down after more than ten minutes and the dog was STILL leaping and licking all over us. I later saw the dog waiting unleashed and by itself in the passageway outside the lower level bathroom with a bowl of food next to it while owner was presumably inside. We avoided the woman for the rest of the trip but didn't mention the incidents to the conductor, as hubby felt sorry for her. 

Not saying the woman in the case linked here was in the wrong, but who knows. Her dogs may well have been barking, she might have let them bother other passengers, or she herself might have bothered someone who complained to the conductor. My guess is there is more to the story, but as usual, we only hear one side in the media.


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## PVD (May 5, 2019)

Amtrak does not recognize support animals, only service animals. On Amtrak if it is not a service animal it needs to comply with the rules for pet travel, which precludes them from being in a sleeper. If people think the rules should be changed, I respect that, but if people want to pretend the present rules apply to everyone else except them, they don' get much sympathy from me.


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## niemi24s (May 5, 2019)

Over the years I've noticed posters here are prone to say that any time a conductor forcefully exerts his/her authority it's labelled a "power trip". Makes me wonder how many of those posters have ever been in a position requiring them to forcefully exert their authority over one or more adults when the need arose.

But I can this thread is quickly degenerating into one where the "do-gooders" are pitted against the "get real" crowd.

Carry on.


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## PVD (May 5, 2019)

Dogs for PTSD support can be legit service dogs. Service dogs often provide service and support in ways that are not always obvious, and we should really try not to paint with too broad a brush. Almost every dog is required to ride on the floor, but certain special services require the dog to be closer, for certain types of conditions like seizure anticipation, or blood sugar irregularity detected by breath....And in the previously mentioned incident, if the dog was walking unleashed and out of control of the owner or (in some cases) the handler, she was wrong. There is no debate on that.


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## SarahZ (May 5, 2019)

PVD said:


> Dogs for PTSD support can be legit service dogs.


Correct. I was addressing their (asinine) point that people who are "emotionally unstable" to the point of needing a service animal shouldn't travel.


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## spinnaker (May 5, 2019)

SarahZ said:


> I want to be there when you say that to the face of a veteran traveling with a PTSD dog.




Service animals are vastly different than ESAs and you are taking my statement way too literary. There are exceptions of course. But people with various emotional issues have been traveling long before there was such a thing as emotional support animals. They just dealt with it. Many people get anxious about flying. Should they be able to have an emotional support animal?

The use of service animals should be more of the exception than the rule and only reserved for those that have a true medical or physiological need. Not because they simply get a bit stressed over travel. That could describe 95% of the people that travel.


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## PaTrainFan (May 5, 2019)

mitako said:


> My guess is there is more to the story, but as usual, we only hear one side in the media.



Undoubtedly there is more to the story, but don't presume the media is skewing it intentionally. Amtrak, like many companies, likely has a "customer privacy" policy which means it cannot comment on specific incidents. This often leaves the companies in an awkward position vis a vis public opinion but by commenting on a passenger they potentially open themselves up to even more legal peril.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 5, 2019)

I would personally be more stressed trying to travel with an animal! Ha.


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## PVD (May 5, 2019)

Interestingly, the air carrier access act forces airlines to allow emotional support animals. Because of the rising number of problems, airlines have tightened their rules considerably. Different scenario than Amtrak, which is covered by the ADA, and does not have to accept ESA.


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

You can make the argument that every pet is an "emotional support animal." I'm not suggesting that pet owners shouldn't travel. I am saying the fake ESAs and fake service animals create a problem for others, and more to the point, the people who do follow rules that are meant to ensure everyone has a comfortable travel experience.


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> But no journey can be expected to be animal free, just like any visit to a restaurant or just walking out side could never be animal free.
> 
> Strangely whilst I could easily find out 150-200 people die each year in the USA due to peanut allegies I was unable to even find even an approximate number who die from coming into contact with pets.



Then you didn't look very hard Andy...


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## ScouseAndy (May 6, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> Then you didn't look very hard Andy...


You forget I'm in the UK and Google provides different results to if I had been in the US so yes I did, care to share the answer with me please as I am genuinely interested in the answer


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> Mental health is the biggest killer of men under 35. If a emotional support animal saves a life then it worth 1,000,000,000,000 fake emotional support animals onboard an amtrak train.



Well no in your hypothetical, no it isn't. First of all you have no evidence that someone faking an ESA on a train or a plane saved their life. Second, in all your zeroes, there are an infinite number of scenarios where someone else's health, well being or more importantly the safety of flight, or train trip, is threatened. 
What you're saying might be an emotional trigger for people here, but it isn't a useful way of framing the issue.


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> You forget I'm in the UK and Google provides different results to if I had been in the US so yes I did, care to share the answer with me please as I am genuinely interested in the answer



In the US, people keep pit bulls as pets. They are often, evidently, trained to kill. These snub nosed breeds have been known to attack and kill humans. Also, these breeds are subject to certain breathing difficulties and should not fly absent a letter from the veterinarian. Yet people have made repeated attempts to either ship them as cargo (some carriers no longer accept) or sneak them into the passenger cabin. When that happens who gets blamed? The pet owner? NO, the horrible mean carrier. Look, I love animals often more than people, I'm just not blind to the cons being run by pet owners who carry this to the extreme. If I'm taking Amtrak or an airline to my destination, I'm not going to purposely do anything disruptive to my fellow travelers or to the company providing the transportation. Rules for mass transit are there for a reason.


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## Seaboard92 (May 6, 2019)

The problem isn’t the pit bull it’s the subpar owners. Case and point my office had someone dump a pit that stayed with us for six months till we could find it a home. He was by far the sweetest, most expressive, caring, and lovable dog I’ve ever had the pleasure to take care of and work with. Yes he had some rough spots because he was fifty pounds and would jump on you like an excitable puppy. But he wasn’t mean spirited. That’s the humans that train the dogs to kill. And they are the reason the breed gets a bad name. 

Just like it’s the humans that give ESA’s a bad name. There are some humans who have a legitimate reason to have a service animal or esa. But there are some that don’t and those are the ones causing the issues. The problem isn’t the animal it’s the human with the animal.


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## Ryan (May 6, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> In the US, people keep pit bulls as pets. They are often, evidently, trained to kill. These snub nosed breeds have been known to attack and kill humans.



Andy was very clearly talking about allergies, not getting mauled by a dog. Try again.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 6, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> Well no in your hypothetical, no it isn't. First of all you have no evidence that someone faking an ESA on a train or a plane saved their life. Second, in all your zeroes, there are an infinite number of scenarios where someone else's health, well being or more importantly the safety of flight, or train trip, is threatened.
> What you're saying might be an emotional trigger for people here, but it isn't a useful way of framing the issue.



Your reading comprehension wasn’t too good last night.
He’s saying that allowing ESA’s on the trains & planes regardless of if they’re real or fake is infinitely better than denying them all together. He did not say the fake ones saved their owners lives.

And as Ryan stated above, Andy was referring to death by * allergic* reaction to animals.


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## NSC1109 (May 6, 2019)

niemi24s said:


> Over the years I've noticed posters here are prone to say that any time a conductor forcefully exerts his/her authority it's labelled a "power trip". Makes me wonder how many of those posters have ever been in a position requiring them to forcefully exert their authority over one or more adults when the need arose.
> 
> But I can this thread is quickly degenerating into one where the "do-gooders" are pitted against the "get real" crowd.
> 
> Carry on.



I’ve been there. Granted, not with Amtrak or any other transportation company, but at the store I currently work at as my college job. 

We caught a lady and her three toddlers yesterday shoplifting. All had backpacks. They were reported by two employees who escorted them to the service desk (where I work). My manager and I had to force them to dump everything they had on the counter because they wouldn’t comply. Turned out to be $70 worth of junk food and they had zero money to pay for it. Decided not to call the Sheriff’s Office but told them they were banned for life and then had to force them to leave. Walked them out myself with the woman giving me the evil eye and her kids saying “it wasn’t even that much stuff, they a bunch of *****”. 

It’s not a fun thing to do, and it’s hardly a power trip. I won’t say that every instance of someone being thrown off a train isn’t a power trip, but I would think it’s a very small percentage. A lot of the time it’s probably the passengers who’ve earned their one way ticket out of the vestibule doors.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 6, 2019)

The Iron Horse said:


> I would actually prefer to sit next to an animal.



Me, too, especially on the crowded and rude Mid-Atlantic part of the NEC. Lots of people on NJT travel with service dogs, and if it keeps them calm and less stressed, I'm all for it.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 6, 2019)

Sorry, the second line above is mine, the first line is what I was trying to quote. Still trying to figure out how to post and answer quotes.

MODERATOR NOTE: The previous post was edited to show your response.


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## flitcraft (May 6, 2019)

I don't blame Amtrak for holding the line on untrained animals. Airlines and airports have had serious problems with untrained animals claimed as ESAs. Even the proponents of ESAs should recognize that the vast majority of claimed ESAs are actually untrained pets, causing real problems for other passengers. I fly a fair bit and have been fortunate to have only been seated next to an ostensible ESA once--on a transcon to Baltimore where a German shepherd barked, whined, and slobbered over me for five and a half hours. The dog peed at one point, soaking the underseat bag of the guy sitting behind him. It was seriously the most miserable flight I ever had. On another flight I was on, an emotional support cat escaped from its owner and ran around the plane, hiding under seats, until finally a flight attendant was able to re-capture it. She was scratched pretty badly in the attempt. And then there are the maulings: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...terminal-lawsuit-says/?utm_term=.16c659142cb2

Seriously, folks who have medical needs for animals need to get them trained so that they aren't a danger to others. If I were an airline, I'd start by requiring dogs to be muzzled at all times. That way they can provide emotional support without the risk that other passengers will be mauled.


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## Chatter163 (May 6, 2019)

desertflyer said:


> 2-4 people each month are being thrown off in Alpine? From a train that only operates 3 times a week? That surprising to me.
> 
> Does Amtrak ever do internal investigations to see if a conductor acted appropriately? It seems like Amtrak should have at least responded to the reporter with a promise that they'll investigate what happened. Instead they provided a list of all the reasons passengers can be kicked off and gave her a refund.



I also thought the pastor’s claim was questionable, to say the least. 

Amtrak may well have said that they will investigate, but that may not have been included in the article, for whatever reason.


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## Chatter163 (May 6, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> What seems weird is why involve the police if there's no cause for arrest? .



Nothing weird at all...

1) The conductor would be a fool if he didn’t call the police. As when hotels must evict guests, or any establishment must remove people, it’s always advisable to have police present, as one never knows what the reaction of the evictees will be. In this day and age, one shouldn’t have to elaborate on that. 

2). The presence of the police ensures that the eviction is handled properly, with due regard for the safety of all, including the evicted passenger. They can see that the person is given a chance of making calls, finding lodging, etc.

3) I’m fairly sure that disruption on a conveyance is an arrestable offense. Just because the conductor doesn’t look to have the person arrested doesn’t mean that there aren’t grounds for charges. When I worked hotel security, there were many times that we chose not to press charges when asking police to remove and bar someone from the property. Often it wasn’t worth the time, effort, or expense, especially when removing the cause of the disturbance (or the deadbeat, or vandal, or whatever) took care of the immediate problem. We weren’t looking to cause people down on their luck more problems; we just needed them gone and told not to return.


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Your reading comprehension wasn’t too good last night.
> He’s saying that allowing ESA’s on the trains & planes regardless of if they’re real or fake is infinitely better than denying them all together. He did not say the fake ones saved their owners lives.
> 
> And as Ryan stated above, Andy was referring to death by * allergic* reaction to animals.



I'm comprehending fine, maybe misinterpreted the phrase about saving a life.
And if it's a narrow comparison of only death from allergic reaction - then I don't have anything - other than the fact that pet allergies can make people very uncomfortable.
As far as the statement that it's better to allow unlimited fake ESAs as opposed to not allowing them, I must respectfully disagree.


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## RichieRich (May 6, 2019)

Simply do not allow ANY animals...there...no discrimination! Or should we bring back smoking?


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## Barb Stout (May 6, 2019)

I knew a lady whose "emotional support" dog needed her own emotional support animal due to the mean behavior of the lady. I imagine there are a lot of those around.


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## Skyline (May 6, 2019)

flitcraft said:


> I don't blame Amtrak for holding the line on untrained animals. Airlines and airports have had serious problems with untrained animals claimed as ESAs. Even the proponents of ESAs should recognize that the vast majority of claimed ESAs are actually untrained pets, causing real problems for other passengers. I fly a fair bit and have been fortunate to have only been seated next to an ostensible ESA once--on a transcon to Baltimore where a German shepherd barked, whined, and slobbered over me for five and a half hours. The dog peed at one point, soaking the underseat bag of the guy sitting behind him. It was seriously the most miserable flight I ever had. On another flight I was on, an emotional support cat escaped from its owner and ran around the plane, hiding under seats, until finally a flight attendant was able to re-capture it. She was scratched pretty badly in the attempt. And then there are the maulings: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...terminal-lawsuit-says/?utm_term=.16c659142cb2
> 
> Seriously, folks who have medical needs for animals need to get them trained so that they aren't a danger to others. If I were an airline, I'd start by requiring dogs to be muzzled at all times. That way they can provide emotional support without the risk that other passengers will be mauled.




The humans need trained as much, if not more, than their animals. But of course if they both go through training together, it's going to be better. That's how it's supposed to work anyway.


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## ScouseAndy (May 6, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> I'm comprehending fine, maybe misinterpreted the phrase about saving a life.
> And if it's a narrow comparison of only death from allergic reaction - then I don't have anything - other than the fact that pet allergies can make people very uncomfortable.
> As far as the statement that it's better to allow unlimited fake ESAs as opposed to not allowing them, I must respectfully disagree.



Ok so broadening the comparison - exactly how many people traveling by any method of mass transportation was killed or had life changing injuries ( for clarity I dont mean got bitten by a dog and had a preventative rabies or tetanus jab or had a minor allergic reaction) in the USA in the last decade from an animal traveling on board? I'm prepared to bet you could count it on both hands and it's far lower than the number killed or had serious injuries after being assaulted by fellow passengers on board either planes or trains. Perhaps to ensure the safety of everyone we should all be allocated our own jet/carriage to minimise any risk to the public whilst traveling.


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## cocojacoby (May 6, 2019)

We rode one of the Silver Services once (don't recall if the Meteor or Star) when a lady in the ADA room in the adjacent sleeper took her little dog with her into the dining car and the dog sat on the seat at the table next to her! She didn't seem disabled to us in any way and the dog was certainly not a service dog.

We love dogs but this was an obvious abuse of the rules.


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## ScouseAndy (May 6, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> We rode one of the Silver Services once (don't recall if the Meteor or Star) when a lady in the ADA room in the adjacent sleeper took her little dog with her into the dining car and the dog sat on the seat at the table next to her! She didn't seem disabled to us in any way and the dog was certainly not a service dog.
> 
> We love dogs but this was an obvious abuse of the rules.



Not all disabilities are visible.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 6, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> Not all disabilities are visible.



However, all service animals are trained to take their place on the floor - and use as little space as possible. No service animal should be on the seats.


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## pennyk (May 6, 2019)

AmtrakBlue said:


> However, all service animals are trained to take their place on the floor - and use as little space as possible. No service animal should be on the seats.


I believe that service animals trained to detect seizures are permitted by Amtrak to sit on the passenger’s lap. I’m not sure if they are permitted to sit on a seat next to the passenger.


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## MARC Rider (May 6, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would personally be more stressed trying to travel with an animal! Ha.


Back when I was in college, I helped my prents move over one vacation. One of my jobs was to drive a car full of stuff we didn't trust to the movers, including the family cat. She was in an improvised, but secure, cat carrier in the back seat. I had the joy of a 100 mile drive accompanied by almost constant aggrieved meowing. And when a cat really feels like it, it can let loose meowing that sounds like the Kitty is being tortured. I still don't know how I kept from driving off the road.

So, yeah, I'd be stressed traveling with a pet.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 6, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> Back when I was in college, I helped my prents move over one vacation. One of my jobs was to drive a car full of stuff we didn't trust to the movers, including the family cat. She was in an improvised, but secure, cat carrier in the back seat. I had the joy of a 100 mile drive accompanied by almost constant aggrieved meowing. And when a cat really feels like it, it can let loose meowing that sounds like the Kitty is being tortured. I still don't know how I kept from driving off the road.
> 
> So, yeah, I'd be stressed traveling with a pet.



My friend moved from NM to DE with 7 cats in her car. Naturally she had sedation meds for them.

For me, the move with our two cats was only about 30 looooong minutes.


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

Health departments have regs, I think, about live animals near food so I'm not sure about the sitting-at-table scenario (certainly next to owner, on floor, no problem).


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> Ok so broadening the comparison - exactly how many people traveling by any method of mass transportation was killed or had life changing injuries ( for clarity I dont mean got bitten by a dog and had a preventative rabies or tetanus jab or had a minor allergic reaction) in the USA in the last decade from an animal traveling on board? I'm prepared to bet you could count it on both hands and it's far lower than the number killed or had serious injuries after being assaulted by fellow passengers on board either planes or trains. Perhaps to ensure the safety of everyone we should all be allocated our own jet/carriage to minimise any risk to the public whilst traveling.



Ok.. explain it to me like I'm 5. Are you saying that humans are more dangerous? I suppose you have a point there, I'm just not understanding why that would support opening the doors, so to speak... to allow any and all animals on board.


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## PVD (May 6, 2019)

Certain service animals are exempt from the seat regulations. They need to be in certain positions to do there job, seizure anticipation or diabetic awareness would be the 2 most common of that type. The diabetic dogs work by noticing variations in the persons breath. They may look just like you or me, or anyone else, but have a totally legit disability with a dog trained to provide valuable assistance. Other than the dogs that need to be in special positions to do their job, all others are required to be on the floor, they are allowed in all public areas including food service areas, there are very few places they can not go. (like in a swimming pool, but they would be allowed on the pool deck)


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## Ryan (May 6, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> to allow any and all animals on board.



Perhaps you can point out where he made that argument, because I can’t find it.


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

Ryan said:


> Perhaps you can point out where he made that argument, because I can’t find it.



Oh Ryan. Don't ever change


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## Ryan (May 6, 2019)

That doesn't look like an argument "to allow any and all animals onboard" either.


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## Mike G (May 6, 2019)

This Emotional Support Animal Business I have often had questions in my mind about. Some of it got cleared up at my Vets office while waiting recently. This derelict looking individual came in with his dog and announced so all could hear he had papers from the *shelter* that he need to Vet to sign off on for his rescued dog to be declared Emotional Support Animal. The receptionist ask where he got the vest with Emotional Support Animal the dog was displaying, he proudly informed all to hear *Amazon* HAHa then she told him the Vet no long sign the documents required because he wasn’t being presented certificate of professional training along with medical history and he didn’t care to get involved in liability suits. Of course he got loud and dropped the F bomb in front of ladies and children as he left. I live in Southaven, MS about 6 exits South of Memphis.


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## Michigan Mom (May 6, 2019)

There were a bunch of zeros in front of the decimal, and I paraphrased to "any and all"
Basically, I'm not really here to argue, so if you need to chalk up a W, have at it.



Ryan said:


> hat doesn't look like an argument "to allow any and all animals onboard" either.


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## PVD (May 6, 2019)

Drove home and just noticed I used there when I should have used "their" but the clock ran out on time to edit... 
mea culpa......


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## Ryan (May 7, 2019)

PVD said:


> Drove home and just noticed I used there when I should have used "their" but the clock ran out on time to edit...
> mea culpa......


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## Ryan (May 7, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> There were a bunch of zeros in front of the decimal, and I paraphrased to "any and all"
> Basically, I'm not really here to argue, so if you need to chalk up a W, have at it.



All I did was ask a simple question, you’re the one who chose to throw insults instead of provide a straight answer. I took Andy’s post to simply mean that he valued someone’s life over the inconveniences of dealing with a pet allergy. Given that you haven’t provided any examples of people dying from being exposed to a pet they’re allergic to, it seems like a reasonable position to take. 

Maybe next time just answer the question and remain civil?


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## cocojacoby (May 7, 2019)

The 2010 revised ADA regulations include a separate provision addressing miniature horses . . .

Miniature horses are permitted to accompany a person with a disability to any place that members of the public are allowed to go such as restaurants, theaters, retail shops, grocery stores, etc. Both service dogs and miniature horses must be _individually trained_, housebroken, and under the handler’s control at all times when out in public.

(Just wondering how many horses have ridden Amtrak)


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## Michigan Mom (May 7, 2019)

Ryan said:


> All I did was ask a simple question, you’re the one who chose to throw insults instead of provide a straight answer. I took Andy’s post to simply mean that he valued someone’s life over the inconveniences of dealing with a pet allergy. Given that you haven’t provided any examples of people dying from being exposed to a pet they’re allergic to, it seems like a reasonable position to take.
> 
> Maybe next time just answer the question and remain civil?



Are you under the impression that your response to me is "civil"? 
Also I don't understand why I have to provide an example of someone dying from being exposed to a pet allergy as I never made this claim to begin with. Maybe you could provide an example of someone's life being saved because they brought a fake ESA on a train or a plane. Clearly this issue is very important to you and perhaps I might learn something from such an example.


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## SarahZ (May 7, 2019)

“I’m not really here to argue”

[continues arguing]


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## Seaboard92 (May 7, 2019)

We just need to make actual regulations and an official training program for the ESA’s I’m not sure if that is the ADA’s department or somebody else. Right now people are using it as a way to travel with their pets, or to bring their pet to college which is an issue. 

Fix the law and no one would have to argue at all. Me personally I’m against a lot of the ESA people but that’s because I’m on the front lines of having to deal with it.


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## ScouseAndy (May 7, 2019)

Michigan Mom said:


> Are you under the impression that your response to me is "civil"?
> Also I don't understand why I have to provide an example of someone dying from being exposed to a pet allergy as I never made this claim to begin with. Maybe you could provide an example of someone's life being saved because they brought a fake ESA on a train or a plane. Clearly this issue is very important to you and perhaps I might learn something from such an example.


1. I never once said a fake animal saved anyone's life.
2. I never claimed you did say one had died from a pet allergy - I merely tried pointing out to another poster (not yourself) that genuine emotional support animals DO save lives and I'd rather travel alongside numerous fake support animals then see someone take their own life because they didn't get the support they needed.
3. Actually I could find a single example in the UK of some who died from a pet allergy in 2017 due to a fatal combination of factors including a family pet licking her face. It is that uncommon here in the UK the death made national news. 
4. It was you that stated I hadn't looked very hard for data on how many deaths occurred in the USA due to pet allegies but then was unable yourself to provide any data to back up your claim I hadn't tried very hard.

I'm walking away from this thread now as we are well off topic and it is sadly degenerating into a he said she said which I'm sure no one come to this forum to read and frankly life is to short.


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## pennyk (May 7, 2019)

MODERATOR NOTE: Please keep this discussion on topic (service/support animals on Amtrak trains; removal of passengers who violate the rules regarding such animals).

Thank you!


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## Michigan Mom (May 7, 2019)

Here's an excellent and recent article, reviewing the issues covered here:

https://www.parksleepfly.com/blog/airlines-cracking-down-on-service-animals-in-2019/ 

Note, the article is airline specific, however the concepts are applicable. For example, untrained ESAs have been known to attack service animals, and this point in particular has not been covered in this thread.

Going back to the original point, Amtrak was absolutely correct to remove the passenger with the dogs that were neither valid service animals, nor true or fake ESAs.


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## Rasputin (May 7, 2019)

About 4 years ago I encountered a service dog/support dog of some type on the CZ. The owner told me what the dog was trained to do but I can't recall what it was. The dog was okay but neither the dog nor the owner had bathed in the previous year or two. I guess they were water averse.


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## tonys96 (May 8, 2019)

TRAINED/LEGIT CERTIFIED service animals are a godsend for some people.

Fake "support" animals, well no not the animal itself, but instead, the owners of them, are perpetrating a fraud against the public. And more importantly, against those with REAL Service animals.

Shame on them.


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## Barb Stout (May 8, 2019)

I have a friend who is blind (low-vision technically-she sees light and dark, but everything is extremely blurry) who used to have a seeing eye dog who died. We were discussing some of the unexpected problems of fake service or emotional support animals. For instance, due to the frequent fraud and problems with these fakers, certain airlines decided to require that people traveling with guide or es animals fill out online forms documenting everything. While she can use computers due to voice-over features on computers, she is still very slow at it compared to sighted people. So more obstacles for her and others like her. She currently gets around with a white stick, but is thinking about getting another guide dog, but they are very expensive, so she has to become more financially stable before she can get another.


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## Railroad Bill (May 8, 2019)

As a long time member of our local Lions Club, whose major goal is to assist those with sight and hearing difficulties and a board member for our local Developmental Disabilities housing group, I have significant experience in dealing with those with issues dealing with disability and that of travel and transportation. I believe there have been significant issues presented in this thread that affect travel on Amtrak.
We all have been aware of those who, on appearance, seem to play games with the rules when it comes to assistance animals. As has also been presented here, not all disabilities are openly apparent.
As a moderator, I again want to ask that all who post here keep their comments on track with the issues, avoid personal attacks and childish rhetoric. We now have four pages of comments and posts, and of course, we will not solve this issue by continuing to rehash the same arguments over and over. I ask that we add to the discussion of service animals and Amtrak and move forward.


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## LookingGlassTie (May 8, 2019)

Railroad Bill said:


> As a long time member of our local Lions Club, whose major goal is to assist those with sight and hearing difficulties and a board member for our local Developmental Disabilities housing group, I have significant experience in dealing with those with issues dealing with disability and that of travel and transportation. I believe there have been significant issues presented in this thread that affect travel on Amtrak.
> We all have been aware of those who, on appearance, seem to play games with the rules when it comes to assistance animals. As has also been presented here, not all disabilities are openly apparent.
> As a moderator, I again want to ask that all who post here keep their comments on track with the issues, avoid personal attacks and childish rhetoric. We now have four pages of comments and posts, and of course, we will not solve this issue by continuing to rehash the same arguments over and over. I ask that we add to the discussion of service animals and Amtrak and move forward.



Well said!


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## basketmaker (May 8, 2019)

Riding the CZ a couple years ago I ran into a homeless (just out of jail) gentleman in the lounge car with his pitbull. Needless to say that raised a few eyebrows as people passed through. The guy had some legal (I think issued by a court) that stated he was required to have the dog with him for support (don't remember if it stated service or emotional). 

The dog wasn't wearing any vest or identification stating it as a service animal. And he was never leashed onboard and only at stops where he was walked on leash to a grassy area. Not being prejudiced against pitbulls (like so many are) I sat in the double-swivel seat next to them and chatted with him while the dog laid on a towel on the floor at his feet. The dog was super mellow. We chatted for a while and next thing I know is the dog got up and meandered over to me and jumped up in the seat with me and went right to sleep.

It was an interesting experience for sure!


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## PVD (May 8, 2019)

There is no legal certification as a service animal. It needs to be trained to perform a task that assists a person with an ADA recognized disability, while many are, it does not have to be by a specific type of organization. That being said, some of the functions are very difficult to train for, and not every disability is apparent. Today I saw a news story about a dog that was trained to detect hormone changes that indicate an oncoming migraine in time to take medication. They also featured a dog that helped someone by anticipating the onset of PTSD flashbacks. that dog was a Great Pyrenees, a breed you would not normally associate with service animals.


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## Michigan Mom (May 8, 2019)

Railroad Bill said:


> As a long time member of our local Lions Club, whose major goal is to assist those with sight and hearing difficulties and a board member for our local Developmental Disabilities housing group, I have significant experience in dealing with those with issues dealing with disability and that of travel and transportation. I believe there have been significant issues presented in this thread that affect travel on Amtrak.
> We all have been aware of those who, on appearance, seem to play games with the rules when it comes to assistance animals. As has also been presented here, not all disabilities are openly apparent.
> As a moderator, I again want to ask that all who post here keep their comments on track with the issues, avoid personal attacks and childish rhetoric. We now have four pages of comments and posts, and of course, we will not solve this issue by continuing to rehash the same arguments over and over. I ask that we add to the discussion of service animals and Amtrak and move forward.


Thank you Bill. I also work for an organization within the eye care sextor. Much respect for what the Lions are doing in local communities and worldwide. People who try to game the system, as you indicated, may end up causing a lot of grief for someone who needs their service animal and that is why I take a fairly hard line on the ESA issue. Also spent many years on the front lines as an airline employee and that informs my perspective as well.


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## riderails (May 9, 2019)

I have not seen reference to following AP article on this thread's topic:
"In 'lawless' world of service dogs many families suffer" [search for this string reveals the article]


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## ScouseAndy (May 9, 2019)

All said and done is it really reasonable behaviour by amtrak to throw her off in the middle of no where? She could have been totally stranded.

Surely it would have made more sense to confine the animals to the baggage car or her room until her station, ban her for life from using amtrak again and bill her for cleaning fees.
2 wrongs don't make a right after all.


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## Bob Dylan (May 9, 2019)

ScouseAndy said:


> All said and done is it really reasonable behaviour by amtrak to throw her off in the middle of no where? She could have been totally stranded.
> 
> Surely it would have made more sense to confine the animals to the baggage car or her room until her station, ban her for life from using amtrak again and bill her for cleaning fees.
> 2 wrongs don't make a right after all.


Alpine is NOT in the middle of nowhere! If I had to be put off the Train I wouldn't have any problem being in this nice little Mountain Town!


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## Dan O (May 10, 2019)

Rasputin said:


> About 4 years ago I encountered a service dog/support dog of some type on the CZ. The owner told me what the dog was trained to do but I can't recall what it was. The dog was okay but neither the dog nor the owner had bathed in the previous year or two. I guess they were water averse.


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## cocojacoby (May 10, 2019)

Many many years ago I used to take the Southern Crescent back and forth to Georgia Tech from my home in Boston. My very first long distance train experience occurred only because that train allowed pets in bedrooms and it was the easiest way to go home with our two cats.

A lot of this fake service animal problem would be alleviated if Amtrak offered more services for regular pets, not to mention a good strong new market for Amtrak.

Nothing would change for service animals, but how about a couple of bedrooms for other pets maybe with rubber flooring and washable seat covers and a pet cleaning fee? Amtrak had a great opportunity to carry larger pets in climate-controlled baggage/dorms but not sure if that is a real possibility because I don't know if the baggage area has A/C and heating.

The Auto Train is a great platform to try something along these lines and the market is certainty there.

Traveling with pets is problematic. People love their pets and this could create a whole new market for Amtrak and stop this fake service animal situation.


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## Michigan Mom (May 10, 2019)

Bob Dylan said:


> Alpine is NOT in the middle of nowhere! If I had to be put off the Train I wouldn't have any problem being in this nice little Mountain Town!



Yup, detraining is actually the least punitive option among many. "lifetime" bans are disproportionately harsh, and probably difficult to enforce, as would an additional cleaning fee, or any fee the passenger didn't agree to beforehand.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 11, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> A lot of this fake service animal problem would be alleviated if Amtrak offered more services for regular pets, not to mention a good strong new market for Amtrak.



The PET program has been in effect for a few years now. They can see if this market is strong or weak. It is no longer speculative. They can see how many pets (and bikes) are legally reserved on a train.



cocojacoby said:


> Nothing would change for service animals, but how about a couple of bedrooms for other pets maybe with rubber flooring and washable seat covers and a pet cleaning fee?
> 
> The Auto Train is a great platform to try something along these lines and the market is certainty there.




Yes. There is nothing like leaving a pet on a train with a 17 hour schedule, with one stop..and that assumes it is one time.



cocojacoby said:


> Amtrak had a great opportunity to carry larger pets in climate-controlled baggage/dorms but not sure if that is a real possibility because I don't know if the baggage area has A/C and heating.



They don't.


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## me_little_me (May 11, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> Many many years ago I used to take the Southern Crescent back and forth to Georgia Tech from my home in Boston. My very first long distance train experience occurred only because that train allowed pets in bedrooms and it was the easiest way to go home with our two cats.
> 
> A lot of this fake service animal problem would be alleviated if Amtrak offered more services for regular pets, not to mention a good strong new market for Amtrak.
> 
> ...


The biggest problem I see is that there are too few bedrooms available on a train to leave any available for pets. Moreover, the potential cleanup could take too long to get the car back in service if there is a serious issue. As to air conditioning in baggage cars, not only is that a big expense for too little a return but how long would the animal have to remain caged up and unfed and who would do it? You're not talking about a 2-5 hour plane ride.


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## TiBike (May 12, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> The PET program has been in effect for a few years now. They can see if this market is strong or weak. It is no longer speculative. They can see how many pets (and bikes) are legally reserved on a train.



Have they released any numbers about bike reservations? My casual observation is that the number of bikes on the Starlight has steadily increased over the past three years, based on what I've seen on the train and on the reservation system. From my occasional looks at a few other LD routes, I'm not seeing the same pattern, but it's a small sample size.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 12, 2019)

I'm not sure they've done it publicly and the revenue portion is buried in "other" categories.


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## troo troo tcrane (May 14, 2019)

Just met someone last weekend who bragged about lying to have her dog labeled ESA dog so she can have it in her condo without paying a fee.

Some people have no scruples.


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