# School Me: London Tube; Oyster card; Senior Railcard; and more



## willem (Dec 5, 2017)

I read the thread that Ryan started two years ago (and shamelessly plagiarized his title). Since I'm less focused on regional rail and much less focused on travel to Scotland, I started a new thread.

Two of us, each over 60 (minimum age for the Senior Railcard), expect to fly into and out of Heathrow next year. We expect to spend a couple of weeks in London and a couple of weeks in England outside London. We expect to visit various cultural heritage sites, with points along Hadrian's Wall perhaps being some of the more remote.

On arrival, we plan to take the Piccadilly Line into London and then buy Senior Railcards, which I understand we cannot buy at Heathrow nor in advance for shipment to an ex-UK address. We also plan to buy pay as you go Oyster cards.

After using public transportation in London, we expect to rent a car to visit York, Newcastle upon Tyne, Swindon, Bath, Portsmouth, and many places on the way between those stops. We will each have an International Driver's Permit. We might want to take a train from Swindon to Bath and back because I understand that driving in Bath is an exercise in frustration.

Please point out errors in my plans and suggest ways to save money. Also, I have some more specific questions.

How do we link the Senior Railcard and the Oyster card so we get the discounted fares on the Tube? (I understand we cannot use the Senior Railcard during morning rush hour.) Is this the best plan for using the Tube in the London area? Can we and should we buy the Oyster cards now and have them shipped to a US address? Is there any way to get the discount associated with the Senior Railcard on the trip from Heathrow into London?

Is there any viable alternative to driving? In other words, I assume that taking the train to the various stops (including points between where we will spend nights) and trying to hire a driver just would not work.

Thanks for any help.


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## caravanman (Dec 6, 2017)

Hi,

The senior railcard you mention is a card which is only valid on the main (non Underground) rail network, (think as similar to Amtrak.) You need to show proof of age to purchase, so your passport will be fine. You can buy these at any (non Underground) staffed rail station.

There is no way to use the senior pass on the London Underground system, it is a seperate item which would be of use only if you take trains to visit places of interest outside the London Underground area.

Sadly I have no experience of Oyster cards at all. I do know that one can use a debit card insted of an oyster card, to "touch on and touch off" at station barriers, and the fare is deducted automatically. I don't know if that would work with your USA cards, but I gather the fare is the same as with an Oyster card. I used my debit card to travel from Heathrow to St. Pancras on the piccadilly tube line a month or so back, and the cost was less than $4.50.

If you wish to take the train between cities, that would be an easy option, there are often very frequent train services. You can arrive in a city, sightsee next day, then move on again next morning, for example... a bit like the NE corridor in the USA...

What month do you intend to visit? I can give you more advice on obtaining the senior railcard discounts if you choose the train over the self drive option...

Ed.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 6, 2017)

Just remember to only eat at Indian take outs. Genuine English food is completely inedible.


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## caravanman (Dec 6, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Just remember to only eat at Indian take outs. Genuine English food is completely inedible.


Maybe that is why we live longer than Americans?

Ed.


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## willem (Dec 6, 2017)

caravanman said:


> There is no way to use the senior pass on the London Underground system, it is a seperate item which would be of use only if you take trains to visit places of interest outside the London Underground area.


Thanks for the quick response, Ed. You would know better than I would, but let me cite what led me to believe it was good on the Underground. (I added the bold face to the existing text, and there are many more items on the linked page.)



> Oyster Off-Peak pay as you go Daily Price Cap and Off-Peak pay as you go single fares for journeys on National Rail, *London Underground* and Docklands Light Railway - find out more about Railcard discounts with Oyster


If I misunderstood that quoted text, then I'm glad I asked and you answered. (Sad to say, that text "find out more about Railcard discounts with Oyster" is not a link.)


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 6, 2017)

caravanman said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Just remember to only eat at Indian take outs. Genuine English food is completely inedible.
> ...


The majority of American food is tastier, but I personally think that the basis of being overweight is not the issue so much as the fact that most food Americans consume is full to the brim of GMOs, preservatives, and artificial flavorings that are banned in more civilized and advanced civilizations... Mexico, for instance.

And of course the majority of overweight Americans eat even more of that scheisse. Actually, I sort of like some English cuisine. But I also know the flavors I like from it are abhorrent to Americans raised on mostly flavor free meat.


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## jis (Dec 6, 2017)

caravanman said:


> Hi,
> 
> The senior railcard you mention is a card which is only valid on the main (non Underground) rail network, (think as similar to Amtrak.) You need to show proof of age to purchase, so your passport will be fine. You can buy these at any (non Underground) staffed rail station.
> 
> ...


Willem,

I would suggest that you purchase an Oyster Card at Heathrow Underground Station (or from RailEurope before leaving the US), put sufficient credit on it for a couple of Underground rides (say something like 10 pounds), and use it to get to wherever in London to at least get the Oyster discount on the Underground.

Then after you have obtained your Senior Railcard, go to any Underground Station ticket office, present you Oyster Card and your Senior Railcard and ask them to "Please load my Railcard on to my Oyster." Once that is done, tapping the Oyster Card as usual will automatically give you the 1/3rd discount in the eligible hours and also cap at the proper discounted amount as long as it is not used in the ineligible hours during the day. You could get hit with a double whammy if you use it in ineligible hours. First you don't get the discount in the cap, and second the cap is based on the higher fare of the ineligible hours rather than the lower off peak fares.

Of course do remember to add adequate credit to the Oyster to cover the trips in the London area. Oyster is the universal fare instrument for all public transport in London (Underground, Buses, Trams, Ferries and London Overground trains + suburban trains in the TfL area).

While I have been eligible for the Senior Card for many years, I have never bothered with it, since for mainline I typically use a Britrail Pass of some variety purchased using a senior rate, and it would take a heck of a lot of traveling on TfL service to recoup the cost of the Railcard, that I would never get around to doing over the typical periods that I am in the London area. Each individual's usage and travel patterns would dictate what is appropriate for them.

Hope that helps.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 6, 2017)

caravanman said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Just remember to only eat at Indian take outs. Genuine English food is completely inedible.
> ...


This and Affordable National Health Care.


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## caravanman (Dec 6, 2017)

It seems that I must bow to the superior knowledge and experience of Jis! Damn, I thought for once I would know the facts!






In my defence, I don't live in London, and don't use Oyster cards. I use my Senior railpass to obtain 1/3 off all national rail fares, no restrictions on travel times from Nottingham.

One tip, if you do want to use the national rail network instead of driving: You can book your train tickets several months in advance, select senior rail card for passenger type, and you pay the discounted fare. You win by booking early for a discount, and get the senior discount too. You only need to carry your railcard and show it along with the ticket when you travel.

To put it another way, you can prebook and get discounted tickets before you arrive, just buy the railcard before the date of the first journey. Two people will need two railcards...

Sorry for the earlier errors on my part!

Ed.


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## cirdan (Dec 6, 2017)

I concur with waht the others say.

When travelling in London, be aware of the following.

All the underground, stations have automatic ticket barriers. You need to tap with the oyster card to enter and tap again when leaving. So Oyster will automatically deduct the correct fare (this is based on the number of zones you travel in. If you do only central London. which is where 99% of London's tourist attractions are located, there is only one zone, so every jopurney costs the same)

On buses, you need to tap in when boarding. You don't need to tap out when leaving the bus. In fact there is no Oyster reader by the exit door. This confuses some people, but don't worry. The Oyster charges a flat fare on buses so it doesn't matter how far you travel.

On rail services (including the Docklands Light Railway) not all stations have ticket barriers. If there isn't one you need to tap in at an oyster reader on the platform or by the station entrance. If your destination station doesn't have barriers, you need to tap out similarly. If you tap in but fail to tap out, Oyster will charge the highest fare, assuming you made the longest possible journey. This is annoying.

You can check out the credit on your Oyster at Oyster machines located at stations, and load extra credit at any time.

If you are catching a train going outside the Oyster area, you need to buy a regular ticket, either at a ticket office of from a machine or online. Do not attempt to use Oyster for this. If in doubt check validity maps or ask a member of staff. For longer and more expensive journeys on intercity trains, you can often save money if you buy online and in advance.


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## PerRock (Dec 6, 2017)

cirdan said:


> I concur with waht the others say.
> 
> When travelling in London, be aware of the following.
> 
> All the underground, stations have automatic ticket barriers. You need to tap with the oyster card to enter and tap again when leaving. So Oyster will automatically deduct the correct fare (this is based on the number of zones you travel in. If you do only central London. which is where 99% of London's tourist attractions are located, there is only one zone, so every jopurney costs the same)


There are a few underground stations (mainly out in Z3-4, but some in Z1) that don't have barriers at all the entrances. They usually have an Oyster reader by the entrance to tap on.

If you see a pink oyster reader (the normal ones are orange/yellow) when changing trains tap on it to be charged the right fare.

TfL fares are done based on what zones you travel thru not your start/stop locations. So it may save you money to take a moment to find a route to where you want to go that avoids passing thru multiple zones.

Londonist has some great videos about the TfL (Transit for London) services. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMB8HFoi_QUoGsoRRHyZGAQ

peter


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## greatwestern (Dec 6, 2017)

Just be aware that if you do book (rail) tickets in advance to get the (often significantly) cheaper fares you will be restricted to the service actually booked. If you use an earlier or later service you will be liable to pay the full walk up fare for the service that you have boarded. There is no flexibility on "advance type" fares which can only be used on the date and time booked. The ticket will normally have a seat reservation associated with it defining the date and service time.


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## jis (Dec 6, 2017)

caravanman said:


> It seems that I must bow to the superior knowledge and experience of Jis! Damn, I thought for once I would know the facts!






My memory is fresh since I spent five days in the London area as base over the Thanksgiving weekend.

I exercised almost every possible combination of Oyster and Britrail Pass, and even did a day trip to Paris by Eurostar, for which I was fortunate enough to get a Siemens e320 (Class 374) on the way out and an original GEC/Alstom Class 373 on the way back. I thought the new e320s were way more noisier than the old Alstom sets.

In Paris it was the usual riding around on RER and Banlieu services. Found that RER-C was out for maintenance between Champ de Mars and Versailles, so hoofed it over to Montparnasse by M4 ( the new consists with full width inter-car vestibules are beautiful) and rode the Rambouillet Translien service through Versailles to St. Quentin en Yvelines and back. The took M6 to Bercy to transfer to the new automatic M14 and rode its entire length, finally transferring to an RER E at St. Lazare to Magenta and walked back to Gare du nord for the return trip to London.

Oh, and BTW, if one is going to ride a lot of trains, a Mobilis Pass covering the appropriate zones is the best thing to use. Do remember to write your name and date of travel on the Mobilis before any random fare inspector catches you, or you may face a hefty fine. In general it is a POP system which is ticket barrier protected except in outer suburban stations out in the sticks in Zone 6.

The other trips were on Chitern Railway express (pulled by a class 68 no less!) from Merylebone to Birmingham Moore Street, then Midlands Service to Lymington Spa, followed by Virgin X-Country to Reading (via Oxford) and finally Southwest to Waterloo via Ascot. Reading Station has changed so much in the last ten years that it is virtually unrecognizable, what with fresh new catenary for the Great Western electrification and all that.

Another day was a trip by VTEC from Kings X to Edinburgh, then a quick round trip on the newly restored Borders Railway to Tweedbank (ScotRail service) and then back to London Kings X.

And on the last day a round trip to Cambridge on the superb one hour non stop service from Kings X to Cambridge, which runs every hour on weekends, to spend an afternoon with friends who live there, and then back to Kings X. Got to ride on the grade separated northbound connection from the ECML to the Cambridge Line at Hitchin for the first time.

Coming to think of it, this post has slowly grown to something that should probably go to some trip report forum or something like that


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## caravanman (Dec 6, 2017)

Such an interesting, not to say intensive few days, Jis!

Just as a matter of interest, can you recall what the return fare to Paris was, and did you book in advance?

I think it is very cool to be able to visit Paris by train for a day trip!

Ed.


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## jis (Dec 6, 2017)

Return fare to Paris in Standard Premium (i.e. First Class without the Business bells and whistles) was something like $360. I bought it just two days before departure through RailEurope. I am sure lower fares were available then, if purchased directly from Eurostar, but I was in a hurry and did not have time to figure out their web site, so just went for the familiar. I was sent two e-tickets by email, which I printed out on my printer and took along with me. I could just as well have just used the email on my Smartphone to scan in at the entry gate, but I did not know that.

Going through the automatic checkin and the immigration and security barrier was surprisingly smooth, and the French guy even stamped my Passport, which they have not done at the airports in ages. The Brits always stamp Passports diligently.


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## trainman74 (Dec 6, 2017)

willem said:


> We will each have an International Driver's Permit.


An IDP is not necessary for driving in the U.K. -- your U.S. driver's license and passport will be sufficient for anything you need.



caravanman said:


> I do know that one can use a debit card insted of an oyster card, to "touch on and touch off" at station barriers, and the fare is deducted automatically. I don't know if that would work with your USA cards...


This requires cards that contain special "contactless" circuitry, and cards like that are almost entirely unknown in the U.S.


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## jis (Dec 6, 2017)

Oyster was supposed to start accepting Apple Wallet and Android Wallet using Smartphone NFC. Have they started it or is it still pending? I did not test it since I have had an Oyster Card now for over ten years, and it continues to work just fine.


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## DoB (Dec 6, 2017)

jis said:


> Oyster was supposed to start accepting Apple Wallet and Android Wallet using Smartphone NFC. Have they started it or is it still pending? I did not test it since I have had an Oyster Card now for over ten years, and it continues to work just fine.


I successfully used Android Pay on the Tube (and buses) in January 2017. That only hitch I encountered was in trying to use a Visa card. For mysterious technical reasons, only MasterCard works (and maybe Amex). If you have a BoA AGR MasterCard, that should be fine - just make sure you've loaded it into your mobile wallet in advance.


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## jis (Dec 7, 2017)

Thanks for the info. Actually for me it is just a matter of curiosity, since I am unlikely to take the trouble to haul my large Smartphone out of my pocket to tap at the gate when I have a little card that fits nicely in my shirt pocket.





But it is a nice fallback thing to have in case I left my Oyster at home.


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## willem (Dec 7, 2017)

jis said:


> I would suggest that you purchase an Oyster Card at Heathrow Underground Station (or from RailEurope before leaving the US), put sufficient credit on it for a couple of Underground rides (say something like 10 pounds), and use it to get to wherever in London to at least get the Oyster discount on the Underground.
> 
> Then after you have obtained your Senior Railcard, go to any Underground Station ticket office, present you Oyster Card and your Senior Railcard and ask them to "Please load my Railcard on to my Oyster." Once that is done, tapping the Oyster Card as usual will automatically give you the 1/3rd discount in the eligible hours and also cap at the proper discounted amount as long as it is not used in the ineligible hours during the day. You could get hit with a double whammy if you use it in ineligible hours. First you don't get the discount in the cap, and second the cap is based on the higher fare of the ineligible hours rather than the lower off peak fares.


Thank you, *jis*, for the tip on buying the Oyster card in advance, the details on how to merge the Senior Railcard with the Oyster card, and the caution about using it during the eligible hours.



DoB said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Oyster was supposed to start accepting Apple Wallet and Android Wallet using Smartphone NFC.
> ...


If I recall correctly, there is a charge for the Oyster card itself. *DoB*, could you or anyone else tell me if I can avoid that charge by using Apple Wallet and presumably not getting the physical Oyster card? Would this enable me to buy the virtual Oyster card before arriving in England?

I'm confused by the discussion of Visa and Mastercard. Is that for reloading the Oyster card? If so, is it automatic or manual? Is it necessary? I mean, could I use a Visa at a reloading station without using Wallet? (I have never used Wallet, so if I asked a silly question, that could be why.)

Speaking of iPhone, could someone give me a pointer on how to get mobile service in England? I have swapped SIMs in an iPad to change providers in US, but that is about the extent of my knowledge and abilities. I have an iPhone SE that my provider unlocked in preparation for this trip. Ideally, I would find a one-month plan that includes tethering as well as the SIM. Suggestions?


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## willem (Dec 7, 2017)

cirdan said:


> You can check out the credit on your Oyster at Oyster machines located at stations, and load extra credit at any time.


Thank you, *cirdan*, for the primer on using the Oyster card. For at least part of our visit, Vauxhall will be the nearest station. I understand it is in zone 1 or zone 2, whichever is more advantageous to the rider. Can you (or someone else) confirm that?

Will I have any problem reloading the Oyster card with a US Visa card (chip enabled, but contact only, and signature rather than PIN)? Does the answer change if I use Mastercard (same features)? More generally, should I be shopping for a contactless credit card or a PIN-enabled card?



PerRock said:


> If you see a pink oyster reader (the normal ones are orange/yellow) when changing trains tap on it to be charged the right fare.
> 
> TfL fares are done based on what zones you travel thru not your start/stop locations. So it may save you money to take a moment to find a route to where you want to go that avoids passing thru multiple zones.


Thank you, *PerRock*, for the tip on tapping the pink Oyster reader, if any, when changing trains. Am I likely to see any of these in zone 1? What is the rationale for tapping a reader during a journey? If I fail to tap the pink Oyster reader, might the Oyster software decide that I had traveled through a different zone?


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## willem (Dec 7, 2017)

trainman74 said:


> An IDP is not necessary for driving in the U.K. -- your U.S. driver's license and passport will be sufficient for anything you need.


Thank you, *trainman74*, for the info that an International Driver's Permit is not required in the UK. It would be a small expense, but every dollar saved can be spent somewhere else. Do you have citation? I don't doubt you, but I would like to have something more definitive than "someone on the internet said so."


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## jis (Dec 7, 2017)

If you are using a wallet in a Smartphone, AFAIR you don't have to do anything special. Just use it like you would at any POS at the tap in and tap out gates or devices.

The Visa and MC discussion was regarding what worked or not through your Smartphone wallet I think. Using Credit Cards at TVMs is a bit of a pain since most American Credit Cards are Chip and Signature. Only way to use them at a TVM is through the Smartphone wallet if the TVM is wallet enabled. But there is always a ticket office at most major Underground stations that can handle Signature cards. That is why I tend to simply use cash at TVMs. I have successfully used American Chip and Signature cards at any ticket office (that I went to) in both in London and Paris.

I believe if you have a registered Oyster Card you can load it over the web too, but I have never done it, since I do not have a registered Oyster Card. Been that way for the ten or so years I have had it.

As for getting service in the UK, it depends on your carrier. For example, if AT&T is your carrier you can get the $10 per day Daypass which essentially allows you to use whatever service you have in the US, in the UK for the day. So for example if you have unlimited, text messaging and data in the US, you can just use it in UK and pay $10 for each day on which you actually use it. You do have to sign up for it. That is what I use.

If you want to use a local SIM you can do that too, but changing a SIM in an iPhone is a bit of a chore which I try to avoid if I can, and I also try to avoid dealing with a different phone number etc. But that is just me.


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## willem (Dec 7, 2017)

Thanks, *jis*.



jis said:


> As for getting service in the UK, it depends on your carrier. For example, if AT&T is your carrier you can get the $10 per day Daypass which essentially allows you to use whatever service you have in the US, in the UK for the day. So for example if you have unlimited, text messaging and data in the US, you can just use it in UK and pay $10 for each day on which you actually use it. You do have to sign up for it. That is what I use.
> 
> If you want to use a local SIM you can do that too, but changing a SIM in an iPhone is a bit of a chore which I try to avoid if I can, and I also try to avoid dealing with a different phone number etc. But that is just me.


I have Virgin Mobile USA, which (I understand) runs on Sprint's towers. Before signing up, I confirmed it has an international plan, but I didn't do enough homework. The international plan allows me to call international numbers from US, but does not allow me to call international numbers (or US numbers) from an international location. Even so, it was a good deal: $1 for one year of unlimited call, text, and data, after buying a new phone from Virgin Mobile USA, which set me back $240 (so $20 per month average for the year). I probably would have signed up even if I had understood how broken the international plan is.

But I am faced with finding a different provider for the England trip.


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## greatwestern (Dec 7, 2017)

Regards driving in the UK, a visitor may drive here for 12 months on a valid US driving licence before being required to obtain a UK licence. Go into this UK government site www.gov.uk/driving-nongb-licence to get confirmation of that.


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## jebr (Dec 7, 2017)

Note that I've never done this before, so I have no idea how well they work, but passing it along as an option to start with or start researching with:

eBay sells "Three UK" SIM cards for around $40-$45 with 12GB of data, 300 minutes, and 3,000 texts with free shipping to the US. I know Three is one of the major networks in the UK and eBay has decent buyer protection, but I can't guarantee that it'd work as desired. If I were traveling to the UK, though, without an international data plan, that's what I'd investigate. That being said, a lot of international airports have SIM card vending machines as well that, while maybe not giving the most favorable rates, are at least an option if all else fails.


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## willem (Dec 7, 2017)

Thanks, *greatwestern*. That was just the confirmation I wanted to see.

Thanks, *jebr*. I've never dealt with eBay, and thought it was for used items. To further show my ignorance, I had no idea that a SIM could come with data and time on it. I would guess that just one of those SIMs would take care of me for the whole trip. I will investigate.

(Edit to add.) Amazon seems to have several choices, too. Since I have an Amazon account and no eBay account, I will deal with Amazon, unless someone has a compelling reason to change. Thanks again, Jeb, for pointing me in the direction of buying a SIM before leaving.


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## trainman74 (Dec 7, 2017)

jis said:


> If you want to use a local SIM you can do that too, but changing a SIM in an iPhone is a bit of a chore which I try to avoid if I can, and I also try to avoid dealing with a different phone number etc. But that is just me.


In my experience, the main issue is finding a place to put your teeny-tiny U.S. SIM card where it won't get lost while you're on your trip.






Last time I went to the U.K. (September 2014), I went to an actual Three store to buy a SIM card for my iPhone. (I'd researched, and they had the best price for data, which was all I expected to use.) Their network was fine throughout London, and everywhere else I went in the country except some rural parts of Scotland.


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## Jean (Dec 7, 2017)

Hi, we purchased regular Oyster cards when in London about 18 months ago and found them excellent. We handed them in at our departure at the entrance to the Piccadilly line in Heathrow, can’t remember which terminal. I think all terminals can access the Piccadilly line. We were refunded our unused credit and our £5 deposit. I see on the Visitor Oyster Card website today that the deposit is not refundable, so that may have changed. Visitor Oyster Cards cannot be purchased in London, but the regular ones can. See www.tfl.gov.uk, if you have not already done so. I must say that the staff on all London train stations have the best, most helpful and friendly staff in the world. Do not hesitate to ask them.

The Picadelly line is all stops. If you are likely to be tired on arrival, you may want to consider the Express from Heathrow. It is expensive, but I believe you can buy ahead on the internet for a better price. But if you are arriving in the morning and will have to wait until your hotel room is ready you may as well take the Picadelly line for a fraction of the price.

I have visited London four times and love it more each time. A few tips: travel light, most stations have lifts, but some do not. We found this when we needed to change to the Circle line at Paddington. That small section did not have a lift. The first time we lugged heavy bags up and down flights of stairs, the second time a helpful staff member pointed out that we could take the next train one stop in the opposite direction, just walk across the platform there and catch the next train back. It worked!

As a general rule, I would beware of any “deal” that restricts your travel time, it is a false economy to have to wait until mid morning to start your day. You may only be there once.

There is food of all types in London, just look around before choosing. There are many 7 elevens or similar where you can pick up ready made sandwiches etc. There are nice pubs, lots of options. We never had a problem finding good value, reasonable meals. It is worth taking note of good places, say, early in the day, then going back there at night.

Be prepared to walk, if possible. Both sides of the Thames River have excellent walking paths along the banks. and you see so much more. Be aware tube stations may have more than just the London Underground lines and other lines may get you somewhere faster.

Ask staff.

Re Bath: we have driven there and parked in the visitor parking around the perimeter, at a cost! It is a compact place and from memory the train station is close to everything. I recommend the hop-on, hop-off bus to get around. You will see lots and get off at the places you want to visit. There was a long queue for the Baths, maybe plan to get there early. Well worth seeing.

If you are in the Bath area, we loved the nearby little city of Wells, has a beautiful cathedral and water from the Wells runs through the streets.

Enjoy!

Jean

Check out everywhere you are going on the internet beforehand.


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## cirdan (Dec 8, 2017)

Jean said:


> The Picadelly line is all stops. If you are likely to be tired on arrival, you may want to consider the Express from Heathrow. It is expensive, but I believe you can buy ahead on the internet for a better price. But if you are arriving in the morning and will have to wait until your hotel room is ready you may as well take the Picadelly line for a fraction of the price.
> 
> I


Nitpicker here.

Strictly speaking that's not true. On the common section with the District Line, it's the District that does all stops and the Piccadilly runs express.

It's always fun seeing one underground train overtake another on this lengthy four-track line. It's four-track from Northfields all the way to the point where the District and Piccadilly part ways in central London.

If you want to see things, this is also a line worth doing as you're above ground for a serious portion of the journey, even on viaducts and embankments, so you get to see Metroland from the rooftop perspective and pass several sites of interest. Of course the line itself is also of interest, with stations and other lineside structures for the most part being in London Underground art-deco brickwork.

The Piccadilly is also onbe of the last lines on the Underground that still uses proper old-school old fashioned trains that still sound and smell like proper Undergrounds. I don't know for how much longer though.

But of course if you're in a hurry, there's no beating the Heathrow Express.


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## cirdan (Dec 8, 2017)

willem said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > You can check out the credit on your Oyster at Oyster machines located at stations, and load extra credit at any time.
> ...


This is correct.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question about credit cards. Most people in the UK these days use chip-enabled cards, so I don't know if cards that just have the magnetic strip are universally accepted.

As far as I am aware many Oyster machines still accept cash.

I will ask my sister, who lives in London.


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## Jean (Dec 8, 2017)

An interesting bit of nitpicking there! Thanks for making that clearer.

I forgot to mention the very useful www.seat61.com. Good for down to earth info and hints, also good prices for travel in Britain and Europe. I have asked questions there and received prompt answers.

I am pretty sure Vauxhall is in Zone 1, if this has not yet been covered.

Another thing about travel in Britain, France too - public toilets are pretty scarce. They are commonly to be found in cafes and restaurants, so take advantage of any you find. Sorry to be so basic, but I find it a really irritating feature.


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## jis (Dec 8, 2017)

cirdan said:


> Jean said:
> 
> 
> > The Picadelly line is all stops. If you are likely to be tired on arrival, you may want to consider the Express from Heathrow. It is expensive, but I believe you can buy ahead on the internet for a better price. But if you are arriving in the morning and will have to wait until your hotel room is ready you may as well take the Picadelly line for a fraction of the price.
> ...


The parallel operation of District and Piccadilly is between just west of Acton Town and Baron's Court, after which Piccadilly dives down underground, but still runs parallel upto South Kensington, Even in this section District has one extra stop.

Turnham Green is an odd one. During daytime Piccadilly does not stop there, but at night it does.

Long time ago District used to run to Northfields, and even all the way to Hounslow West, but that was discontinued quite a while back.

Piccadilly will probably not get new trains for another five years or so.

There is a slightly less expensive (than Heathrow Express), but faster than Piccadilly Line alternative in the Heathrow Connect Service, which is a stopping service from Heathrow to Paddington, and with the opening of the Elizabeth Line next year, all the way to Liverpool Street. Eventually there will be a fast service from Heathrow to Cambridge North via St. Pancras LL.But that is still a couple of years away.


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## willem (Dec 9, 2017)

Thanks to all. To channel Rumsfeld, it's interesting to move items from the "unknown unknowns" to the "known unknowns" category. For example, I didn't know that the Oyster card came in visitor and non-visitor editions.



trainman74 said:


> In my experience, the main issue is finding a place to put your teeny-tiny U.S. SIM card where it won't get lost while you're on your trip.


I have run into the issue of storing a SIM before, so I believe I am prepared to deal with it. On the other hand, sometimes issues find ways around my preparations. If ever there will be a time for a SIM to wander off, it will be in another country.



Jean said:


> The [Piccadilly] line is all stops. If you are likely to be tired on arrival, you may want to consider the Express from Heathrow. It is expensive, but I believe you can buy ahead on the internet for a better price. But if you are arriving in the morning and will have to wait until your hotel room is ready you may as well take the Picadelly line for a fraction of the price.
> 
> I have visited London four times and love it more each time. A few tips: travel light, most stations have lifts, but some do not. We found this when we needed to change to the Circle line at Paddington. That small section did not have a lift. The first time we lugged heavy bags up and down flights of stairs, the second time a helpful staff member pointed out that we could take the next train one stop in the opposite direction, just walk across the platform there and catch the next train back. It worked!
> 
> ...


My only concern about the Piccadilly Line is having the bags take up space on the car. Carrying the bags should not be a problem, and I'm hoping that by time we clear customs and orient ourselves after our 0800 arrival, rush hour will be over.

I didn't follow the description of taking a train one stop and then catching the next train back. Did the next train back take you to a different station? Is there a lift on one side and not the other?

We used to be walkers, and I'd like to think we still are. We do expect to walk unless it would take too much time.

In the evolution of the plans, the current thought is to take the train to Bath.



Jean said:


> I forgot to mention the very useful www.seat61.com. Good for down to earth info and hints, also good prices for travel in Britain and Europe. I have asked questions there and received prompt answers.
> 
> I am pretty sure Vauxhall is in Zone 1, if this has not yet been covered.
> 
> Another thing about travel in Britain, France too - public toilets are pretty scarce. They are commonly to be found in cafes and restaurants, so take advantage of any you find. Sorry to be so basic, but I find it a really irritating feature.


I have read pages at Seat61, but never interacted further. Thanks for the info.

There is no need to apologize for providing basic information—especially about toilets. In foreign countries, I carry my own toilet paper and suggest others do the same. Happily for me, I had already begun this policy before I entered the public restroom in Rome where one is expected to tip the attendant in advance. I don't know if I didn't tip enough or if the locals had different digestive tracts, but the three squares of toilet paper that the attendant gave me would not have been enough.

Thanks again for all the guidance.


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## DoB (Dec 9, 2017)

willem said:


> If I recall correctly, there is a charge for the Oyster card itself. *DoB*, could you or anyone else tell me if I can avoid that charge by using Apple Wallet and presumably not getting the physical Oyster card? Would this enable me to buy the virtual Oyster card before arriving in England?
> 
> I'm confused by the discussion of Visa and Mastercard. Is that for reloading the Oyster card? If so, is it automatic or manual? Is it necessary? I mean, could I use a Visa at a reloading station without using Wallet? (I have never used Wallet, so if I asked a silly question, that could be why.)


The charge for an Oyster card is only for the Oyster card. If you don't use an Oyster card - e.g., you use your phone instead - you avoid the charge entirely.

I have multiple credit cards loaded into my Android Pay wallet. When I tried to use a Visa at the fare gate, I got an error message. When I switched to a MasterCard, it worked fine.

This is unrelated to the question of which card you should use to fund an Oyster card (if you opt to use an Oyster card). At a staffed ticket window, any card should work. At a machine, you may or may not be able to use a card that doesn't have Chip-and-PIN, but MasterCard vs. Visa shouldn't make a difference. If one machine doesn't work, try a different one - although it's been many years since I've used an Oyster card, I vaguely recall that the larger vending machines rejected my U.S. credit card while the smaller ones accepted it. (Or maybe I got that backwards?)


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## caravanman (Dec 10, 2017)

It seems that this thread is getting over complicated, at least to my poor brain... Getting difficult to pick out the pearls (of wisdom) among the Oysters.





The Piccadilly line tube train cars have an area just to one side of the doors where suitcases can be placed. As the airport is at the start of the journey, you should not have problems with your cases. I try and grab the 1st seat next to that floor space to keep a hand on my items.

Ed.


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## cirdan (Dec 11, 2017)

I asked my sister, who lives in London, and she confirms that cash top ups for Oyster are still possible, and that it is also possible to pay with AMEX, including the US type cards


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## jis (Dec 11, 2017)

cirdan said:


> I asked my sister, who lives in London, and she confirms that cash top ups for Oyster are still possible, and that it is also possible to pay with AMEX, including the US type cards


It better be, ‘cause I did so a couple of times just two weeks back!





Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## caravanman (Dec 13, 2017)

You may find the short walking distance map between some stations of use...

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/walking-tube-map.pdf

Ed


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## willem (Dec 13, 2017)

Nice map. Thanks, Ed. I probably would not have found that map on my own.

I am perplexed by the representation of what (I assume) are the London Overground and DLR lines. The Key to lines legend indicates that a solid colored line on the map is used to represent each tube line (or route, to avoid using the term "line" for two purposes). At least two of the tube lines (or routes) are represented by double lines on the map, even though the legend has no double lines. Is the mayor of London trying to present some additional information that I am not understanding? (That's a rhetorical question, unless someone knows the answer.)

Thanks again.


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## jis (Dec 13, 2017)

I guess I don;t quite understand your question. Could you provide an example of the "double line" segment that you refer to? Thanks.


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## greatwestern (Dec 13, 2017)

The "double" lines on the "walking tube map" which I think you are querying, are in fact the Docklands Light Railway (DLR) [blue] and the London Overground routes [brown]. If you use the "standard" tube map (from the Maps tab on the site www.tfl.gov.uk) you will see the legend defines those routes with double lines. On the standard map you will also see the London Trams and TFL routes defined by double lines.


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## caravanman (Dec 13, 2017)

The lines "key" shown on the walking map is incorrect... I did not notice that myself. The DLR and Overground are shown on the map differently to the "solid" tube lines.

Handy map for walking between stations, but not so great for finding the correct line to ride.


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## willem (Dec 13, 2017)

jis said:


> I guess I don;t quite understand your question. Could you provide an example of the "double line" segment that you refer to? Thanks.


At Stratford, there are double lines (off-green) going in three directions, and a single line (gray) heading southwest (on the schematic). The legend shows no double lines.

Did that help?


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## trainman74 (Dec 14, 2017)

willem said:


> At Stratford, there are double lines (off-green) going in three directions, and a single line (gray) heading southwest (on the schematic). The legend shows no double lines.
> 
> Did that help?


It's as caravanman said: the legend is incorrect, and the Docklands Light Railway (greenish-blue) and the Overground (orange) are shown on the map using double lines.

Another issue I see on that excerpt from the map is that the Central Line's red line kind of goes between two of the circles representing Stratford station. But it _does_ stop there!


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## jis (Dec 14, 2017)

Yeah, in general only London Underground Lines are shown with solid lines.

London Overground (Orange) and DLR (Teal) are shown by those double lines.

Stratford is actually fine. It shown the double dark line transfer between three separate stations called Startford, two (London Overground and Central) of which have stepless access to platform but not to the train, while the third (DLR and Jubilee) one has stepless access to trains. I actually know this to be true since I was there just the other day





Incidentally Stratford also is a stop on the International HSR (both Eurostar and Southest HSR Commuter Service)


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## PerRock (Dec 14, 2017)

Elsewhere on the map it's worth mentioning that the double-lined lime-green is the Trams; Double-Blue is TfL Rail (will be Crossrail/Elizabeth Line); and the Tripple-Red is the cable car.

peter


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## cirdan (Dec 15, 2017)

trainman74 said:


> willem said:
> 
> 
> > At Stratford, there are double lines (off-green) going in three directions, and a single line (gray) heading southwest (on the schematic). The legend shows no double lines.
> ...


Yes, Central Line stops in Stratford.


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## cirdan (Dec 15, 2017)

jis said:


> Incidentally Stratford also is a stop on the International HSR (both Eurostar and Southest HSR Commuter Service)


As far as I am aware, it was intended when the route was designed that Eurostar stops in Stratford, but this doesn't actually happen (although I understand that during the Olympics some specials did stop there)

BTW, it was never the intention that Eurostars to / from St Pancras would stop in Stratford. Having two London stops so close together would have made little sense. The purpose of the international platforms at Stratford was that Eurostar trains heading for destinations north of London could use the station to serve London while by-passing the main stations and their approaches. This North of London Eurostar never materialized, largely because of the customs regime that wouldn't allow domestic passengers to use the trains, thus scuppering the business case..


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## jis (Dec 15, 2017)

Right. Eurostars stop at Ebbsfleet a little further out across the river instead of Stratford these days. Only some, not all stop at Ebbsfleet, as they also do at Ashford International.

One interesting tidbit - for now only the Alstom consists can access Ashford International. The Siemens consists are not equipped with compatible signal/train control system.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## jamesontheroad (Dec 21, 2017)

One little addendum on the subject of SIM cards.

It's a lot easier to by a SIM card in the UK that in the USA.

I tried to get a temporary SIM while visiting the USA a few years ago and was surprised how hard it was (presumably to comply with federal requirements about user data).

You can find cheap basic SIM cards for sale at all convenience stores and supermarkets. These will be available for you to activate and load credit onto before use (prepay) and are called "pay as you go" or PAYG plans.

MoneySavingExpert is a great resource for all UK consumers, and this page gives you a low down on current best deals for PAYG SIM cards:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/phones/best-pay-as-you-go-sim-cards


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## willem (Dec 21, 2017)

Thanks for that link, *jamesontheroad*. It has a lot of information that has not concerned me before now.

I'm a bit confused and hope you can clarify something for me. Does "available for you to activate and load credit onto" mean that I need to buy the SIM and then buy minutes or data? Or does it mean that I need to activate the SIM (how?) and then load additional credit onto it after I exhaust the initial credit? Put another way, does the SIM come with any credit already on it?

Thanks for any education.


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## Jean (Dec 22, 2017)

Don’t know how much time you have in London (there is never enough), but I just wanted to mention that St Pancras and Kings Cross stations are worth a visit. They are right next door to each other, but have very different and attractive decors. Apart from the attractive decor of St Pancras, it is interesting to see where the Eurostar departs (maybe you are going on it). Kings Cross also has great decor, trains depart from here to Scotland etc. Kings Cross features in Harry Potter books (if you have young relatives) and you will find the Harry Potter souvenir shop there.

In London I have also enjoyed sitting on the top level of public double decker buses, right at the front if possible. Lots of routes, so there will be one to take you to a tourist site. There are also the tourist hop-on, hop-off buses of course.

Jean


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## willem (Dec 22, 2017)

Never enough time in London? Dr Johnson said, "When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life".

I believe the train to St Albans leaves from St Pancras, and we do plan on a day trip there. We'll schedule some extra time for station-seeing.

I would like to take the train to Inverness, but that probably won't happen. We might make a day trip to Paris. (Thanks to *jis* for that idea.)

And it doesn't take young relatives to spark an interest in Harry Potter. Speaking of which, the Harry Potter Lexicon is a resource for any Harry Potter fan.

Thanks for the ideas, *Jean*.


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## jis (Dec 22, 2017)

You are welcome willem. Yes a day trip to Paris is well worth it if you can fit it in your budget. Book early to get lower fares, though beware, almost all are non refundable. Rail Europe will happily sell you a reasonably priced insurance that will refund the fare in case of cancellation, no questions asked. I have bought the insurance but never had a chance to exercise it.

For maximum time in Paris take the first Eurostar of the day out and the last one back. As soon as you get to Paris get yourself on the Hop-on Hop-off tour bus. That is much easier for someone who is not familiar with the Metro and RER systems.


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## cirdan (Dec 22, 2017)

jis said:


> You are welcome willem. Yes a day trip to Paris is well worth it if you can fit it in your budget. Book early to get lower fares, though beware, almost all are non refundable. Rail Europe will happily sell you a reasonably priced insurance that will refund the fare in case of cancellation, no questions asked. I have bought the insurance but never had a chance to exercise it.
> 
> For maximum time in Paris take the first Eurostar of the day out and the last one back. As soon as you get to Paris get yourself on the Hop-on Hop-off tour bus. That is much easier for someone who is not familiar with the Metro and RER systems.


Alternatively, spend a night in Paris. Hotels there tend to be a shade cheaper than London ones, and it's a city that's well worth seeing at night as well as during the day.

And if you consider the Eurostar ride as a railfan attraction in its own right rather than just a convenient means of transportation, there might be arguments for riding it during daylight hours.


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## jis (Dec 22, 2017)

Of course you could also spend multiple nights in Paris if you so choose. that goes without saying. If you have even more time (and money) you could do both Paris and Brussels

For the moment we were discussing day trips and what you can do in such




As a railfan, you can do even a London - Paris - Brussels - London day trip all in daylight even in the winter.


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