# Work at New York Penn



## Maverickstation (Apr 28, 2017)

Plan accordingly if your summer travels take you to, and/or through New York Penn.

https://www.boston.com/culture/travel/2017/04/27/northeast-train-delays-likely-this-summer-over-work-at-penn-station

Ken


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## jis (Apr 28, 2017)

The most affected will be commuter trains. Amtrak trains will mostly do relatively fine I think. Empire Service may be significantly impacted during work on the A Ladder since they have to cross it to get to the Empire Connection.

There will be significant juggling of NJT schedules, with possibly some trains diverted to Hoboken or short terminated at Newark Penn, is what we are hearing. Effect on LIRR should be less unless major stuff comes down on the east side tunnels and interlockings.


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## Maverickstation (Apr 29, 2017)

Another story on this subject, don't think for a second that this will not affect Amtrak in a large way.

NJ Transit has options, like diverting trains to Hoboken, or turning them at Newark Penn (where by passengers would transfer to PATH, or i the case of Hoboken, PATH or Ferries),

options that would not work for Amtrak.

The fact that Amtrak has to even hint at shutting one of the tunnels shows how dramatic the issues are in the tunnels and the approaches from the west of NYP.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/Amtrak-warns-of-significant-outages-as-NJ-lawmakers-seek-answers-on-commuter-chaos.html

Ken


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## A Voice (Apr 29, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> The fact that Amtrak has to even hint at shutting one of the tunnels shows how dramatic the issues are in the tunnels and the approaches from the west of NYP.


The eventual tunnel closure does not refer to the work performed this summer. It has been known for a long time that the damage to the aging tunnels during the Sandy storm event would ultimately mean the tubes would have to be shut down for repairs, but the plan has always been to do this work after the Gateway tunnel is operational. While it is possible something could be found or occur which would require the tunnels be shuttered before then - particularly if Gateway faces delays (likely funding) - that is not the intention.

While Amtrak will be affected, Jis is correct in that it is the commuter traffic which will take by far the greatest hit. Penn Station is drowning in commuter trains; This will eventually have to be addressed further than just Gateway and the Farley building station expansion.


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## daybeers (Apr 29, 2017)

A Voice said:


> While Amtrak will be affected, Jis is correct in that it is the commuter traffic which will take by far the greatest hit. Penn Station is drowning in commuter trains; This will eventually have to be addressed further than just Gateway and the Farley building station expansion.


Isn't the seemingly never-ending East Side Access Project going to address the fact that Penn is overcrowded by bringing LIRR to GCT?


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## jis (Apr 29, 2017)

Only partly. It will offload the higher track numbers a little, and soon some of the LIRR trains that move out, will be replaced by MNRR trains from the New Haven Line. And it will have no effect on the ever growing numbers coming in from NJ.


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## dlagrua (Apr 29, 2017)

Funny how short sighted government can be. Yes the track work needs to be done but I find it odd that its going to take place in the busy summer months. JIS s certainly correct that commuter trains flood Penn station. It is grossly overloaded. Over 600,000 passengers per day use Penn station. . NYC could sure could use the extra space that the original station had but until the Penn station expansion is done, the misery will continue.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 29, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> Funny how short sighted government can be. Yes the track work needs to be done but I find it odd that its going to take place in the busy summer months. JIS s certainly correct that commuter trains flood Penn station. It is grossly overloaded. Over 600,000 passengers per day use Penn station. . NYC could sure could use the extra space that the original station had but until the Penn station expansion is done, the misery will continue.


Hmm, might 2 derailments in a month justify doing it now rather than later?


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## Maverickstation (Apr 29, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that Amtrak has to even hint at shutting one of the tunnels shows how dramatic the issues are in the tunnels and the approaches from the west of NYP.
> ...


Actually you never know when an emergency tunnel closure could occur, since the "issues" of the past few weeks, Amtrak's inspectors have found more defects in the tunnels.

This was brought to light this past week when the CBS Evening News ran a story where of their reporters was taken on a rare tour of the tunnels and issues like antiquated wiring,

water intrusion, general aging, and the like were pointed out.

Granted when it was planned NYP was not designed to handle commuter trains coming from the west, and that changed over the decades with the final PRR commuter train departing Jersey City-Exchange Place in 1961.

NJT has to be charged with maximizing Hoboken for the foreseable future, like it. or not.

The NEC is Amtrak's bread and butter, but it can't that with a sever point between NY Penn and Newark Penn.

This is no doubt the most serious issue that Amtrak is facing.

Ken


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## Bex (Apr 29, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> Funny how short sighted government can be. Yes the track work needs to be done but I find it odd that its going to take place in the busy summer months. JIS s certainly correct that commuter trains flood Penn station. It is grossly overloaded. Over 600,000 passengers per day use Penn station. . NYC could sure could use the extra space that the original station had but until the Penn station expansion is done, the misery will continue.


Just curious, because I could not find figures, but anecdotally, it seems commuter ridership in Manhattan goes down in the summer as people take vacations, have summer Fridays, etc. So while it's Amtrak's high season, maybe not so much for LIRR/NJT?


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## Maverickstation (Apr 29, 2017)

Bex said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how short sighted government can be. Yes the track work needs to be done but I find it odd that its going to take place in the busy summer months. JIS s certainly correct that commuter trains flood Penn station. It is grossly overloaded. Over 600,000 passengers per day use Penn station. . NYC could sure could use the extra space that the original station had but until the Penn station expansion is done, the misery will continue.
> ...



For the LIRR summer ridership soars on their east end routes, as well as the Babylon and Long Beach branches, overtaking any vacation loss on their system, and hyper New Yorkers don't take much vacation to start with.

NJT also sees an uptick on their Bay Head route


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## railiner (Apr 29, 2017)

I had thought that the East Side Access could divert as many as half of LIRR trains from NYP to NYG, if necessary....by the way, what is the latest estimate for its opening?

And why would New Haven MNCR trains be diverted to NYP? If people wanted to go to NYP, they can already ride Amtrak trains that do that, albeit, for a higher fare.....if that is planned, what about sending some MN Hudson Line trains to NYP? Why not one, and not the other?

If that happens, Amtrak should be able to reciprocate and run a couple of Boston or Albany trains to NYG, for the convenience of those wanting that part of town...


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## Train2104 (Apr 29, 2017)

Bex said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how short sighted government can be. Yes the track work needs to be done but I find it odd that its going to take place in the busy summer months. JIS s certainly correct that commuter trains flood Penn station. It is grossly overloaded. Over 600,000 passengers per day use Penn station. . NYC could sure could use the extra space that the original station had but until the Penn station expansion is done, the misery will continue.
> ...


For most transit, including NYC area transit it does go down, and on Fridays quite a bit,especially in the mornings. But the thousands that fill Penn for the Montauk and Long Beach service on Friday afternoons and weekends more than makes up for the loss (and I'm not exaggerating, the Cannonball alone carries well over 1,500 passengers most Fridays). Summer is the LIRR's busiest time of year overall.


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## jis (Apr 29, 2017)

It was Amtrak's decision to move out of GCT to reduce cost. Nothing has changed to cause a different decision now.

It is MTA's plan to run some New Haven Line trains to Penn Station using slots that belong to MTA via LIRR, so go and ask them why. I think it also has to do with opening several stations on the NY Connecting Railroad (Hell Gate Line) to increase commuter access. No one in their right mind should claim that Amtrak service and fares is the same as commuter rail service and fares anywhere on the NEC


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## railiner (Apr 29, 2017)

No one did claim that the service and fares are the same....I did say that service via Amtrak on the New Haven line to NYP was available, albeit at a higher fare....

*

Interesting about stops on the NY Connecting RR line....would be nice to have a stop at either Northern Blvd., or Ditmars Blvd. in Astoria, not too far from LaGuardia Airport to serve Queens passenger's...


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## WoodyinNYC (Apr 29, 2017)

railiner said:


> Interesting about stops on the NY Connecting RR line....would be nice to have a stop ... in Astoria, not too far from LaGuardia Airport to serve Queens passengers...


I've only read about 4 stations in the Bronx, in parts of the boro poorly served by subways, especially Coop City.


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## Maverickstation (Apr 30, 2017)

Meanwhile a group of NJT riders are planning on using their April passes through May.

http://newjersey.news12.com/news/nj-transit-riders-vow-nopaymay-to-protest-recent-transit-delays-1.13540624

Ken


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## dlagrua (Apr 30, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how short sighted government can be. Yes the track work needs to be done but I find it odd that its going to take place in the busy summer months. JIS s certainly correct that commuter trains flood Penn station. It is grossly overloaded. Over 600,000 passengers per day use Penn station. . NYC could sure could use the extra space that the original station had but until the Penn station expansion is done, the misery will continue.
> ...


That makes sense and I can certainly believe that is one of the driving factors.. Those derailments also caused NJT to withhold rent for the use of Penn station so that also forces the issue. . We just hope that the effect on LD and NEC trains is not catastrophic.

Just for reference my son came out to visit us today and decided to take NJT from NYP to Raritan. It turned out to be a 2 1/2 hour trip on a day when passenger traffic is very light. I can only guess that track /switch work may have already begun. Have to check Amtrak NEC schedule to see if that has been affected as well.


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## jis (Apr 30, 2017)

About NJT rent, that is Christie grandstanding. This year's check has been paid and cashed, as I understand it. It is the payment for 2018 that we are bloviating about. The effects of any real withholding will unfold after Christie is gone, so it is an easy one for him to huff and puff about, for effect.


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## Maverickstation (May 1, 2017)

Here is a very strong editorial from Newsday, putting the blame on Amtrak's leadership (or lack there of).

The issues that they raise about the various security details that patrol the station are spot on.

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/editorial/amtrak-still-on-the-wrong-track-1.13539480

Ken


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## Thirdrail7 (May 1, 2017)

The Newsday article conveniently over looks the fact that LIRR has hindered Amtrak from assisting when it refused to cut its trains to accommodate the track work. How can there be an outage if you're ramming trains through the area? AS the only 24 hour commuter service in the country, LIRR was approached by the MTA about stopping service to save money. LIRR politicians refused to cut overnight trains (accurately) citing the economical benefits of 24 hour service. That's all well and good, but you can't work on tracks with trains running on them.

As such, I can agree that there is a lack of leadership because a true leader would take have taken a hard line stance and said "We're taking the tracks out of service. Period. Run your full schedules at your own peril." No one bats an eye when a freight railroad shuts down the line and says trains aren't running. Instead, they let the commuter agencies dictate policy in their own terminal through funds...which Amtrak desperately needs.

I also remember MTA having the same problem when two trains sideswiped outside of BRP. This is just the latest incident in an industry that continues to cut and roll the dice. The brain drain of 2013 still rages on and the Not Ready For Prime Time Players continue to lead by their wallets (which in some cases is accurate) without an eye towards the consequences..that may come sooner rather than later.

As for the security theater, there are documented policies in place that have command procedures. Each division and their responsibilities are listed. However, the passengers probably don't have them and it is likely they are the group of people that are going run around and wreak havoc. As such, if you put in one agency, 18 agencies or no agencies, a panic is a panic. A riot is a riot. A stampede will still become a stampede. After all, Newsday conveniently leaves out that mayhem ensued at JFK airport in New York last year after there were false reports of gun fire. The fleeing passengers paid little attention to the announcements as they raced around. I'd like to see more occur (such as the master announcer that supposedly exists within NYP), but thinking you can legislate reactions has always been a source of amusement for me.


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## Pooh2 (May 1, 2017)

We just booked a trip from Boston to New Orleans for 4th of July week with about an hour and half wait at NYP. What do they do with us if we miss the Crescent (in a sleeper)?

Already bought nonrefundable plane tickets for the return trip.


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## jis (May 1, 2017)

I agree with Thirdrail. With the excellent leadership being provided by the Governors in the NY area, the Commuter service will first descend to the state of WMATA before things start improving. Improvements will happen only after a few of these guys start losing elections wholesale. And if they don't, be ready for things tog et worse. Actually, Cuomo is at least getting the long delayed third track between Floral Park and Hicksville on the LIRR Main Line pushed forward at least. But LIRR really needs to perform much better in Capital Projects than the low bar they have set for themselves with the ESA project.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 1, 2017)

Pooh2 said:


> We just booked a trip from Boston to New Orleans for 4th of July week with about an hour and half wait at NYP. What do they do with us if we miss the Crescent (in a sleeper)?
> 
> Already bought nonrefundable plane tickets for the return trip.


If it is a guaranteed connection, they will typically hold the Crescent in WAS until you arrive. They may switch you to an Acela for the intercept. Chances are, they will leave you on the through trains to WAS. If you are so late that intercept isn't feasible, they will offer lodging and accommodate you on the next Crescent.


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## PVD (May 1, 2017)

I was on a Crescent from NYP to ATL back in October, they held us in WAS to wait for connections from North of NYC on the corridor because of residual delays from a CSX derail in the Bronx that blocked access to the Hell Gate Bridge.


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## west point (May 1, 2017)

LIRR not wanting to cut trains may have to do with not wanting to loose out the total count of passengers to MNRR ?


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## jis (May 1, 2017)

west point said:


> LIRR not wanting to cut trains may have to do with not wanting to loose out the total count of passengers to MNRR ?


Seems like an odd reason to compromise safety.


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## neroden (May 1, 2017)

jis said:


> But LIRR really needs to eprform much better in Capital Projects than the low bar they have set for themselves with the ESA project.


Is it *possible* to set a lower bar than the LIRR? Perhaps the unfinished Jakarta Monorail, where the pillars are all built (the difficult and expensive part) but nobody ever bothered to finish putting the trackbed up? (Though they are now using the pillars for an elevated LRT, so that's good.)
Or the original Cincinnati Subway?

Short of those, LIRR seems to have the worst-managed capital projects in the world.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 2, 2017)

Having been at loggerheads with one of their former planning directors, I can't imagine why.


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## jis (May 2, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Having been at loggerheads with one of their former planning directors, I can't imagine why.


LOL! I share your feeling.


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## west point (May 2, 2017)

jis said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Having been at loggerheads with one of their former planning directors, I can't imagine why.
> ...


The results or more lack of results with their last few projects including "Sandy" preparations seems to put spotlight on these problems ?

ESA and Harold flyovers are just some of the biggest.


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## CelticWhisper (May 4, 2017)

So do we think this will interfere with a WAS-PVD Acela trip since it passes through NYP?


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 4, 2017)

I think that things that have been neglected for years are finally getting fixed thanks to Wick Moorman actually being a lifelong railroad man and realizing what has to be done instead of sweeping it under the rug or not understanding the severity of the deteriorating infrastructure.

I find it ironic that the NJ newspapers have an article almost every day about how commuters to New York will have to put up with 15-minute delays because of the repair work. NJT has routinely had 15-minute delays for years now, for reasons far less important than this. I simply assume my southbound NJT train will come into Princeton Junction 15 minutes late every afternoon and plan accordingly.

The other ironic thing is that New York commuters have more than one train a day and other options to get around. The people who should be complaining are those who have one train in and out of town three days a week and that's it.


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## John Bobinyec (May 4, 2017)

CelticWhisper said:


> So do we think this will interfere with a WAS-PVD Acela trip since it passes through NYP?


All depends on which tracks are taken out at any given time.

jb


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (May 4, 2017)

If the LD trains could not run into NYP, would they continue as far as PHL? I have a trip planned to LI in July during a work period, but as long as the train reached PHL I could still make it to the LIRR using a combination of SEPTA, NJT, PATH, and NYC Subway.


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## jis (May 4, 2017)

west point said:


> ESA and Harold flyovers are just some of the biggest.


There are no Harold flyovers. They are both duck-unders.


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## jis (May 4, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> If the LD trains could not run into NYP, would they continue as far as PHL? I have a trip planned to LI in July during a work period, but as long as the train reached PHL I could still make it to the LIRR using a combination of SEPTA, NJT, PATH, and NYC Subway.


I doubt that any LD service will be affected, other than some possible timetable adjustments. I also doubt very much that too many Acelas will be affected, again except for some minor timetable adjustments. What will be most affected are NJT and LIRR Commuter train, which are likely to face significant service reduction over those two periods.


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## Metra Electric Rider (May 4, 2017)

Curbed had an article about a roof leak in Penn today as well as all the track issues (at least that's what I thought I saw - as in it was a new article).


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## Metra Electric Rider (May 5, 2017)

I suppose a link would be more useful than me just saying it, so here you go!

https://ny.curbed.com/2017/5/4/15542276/penn-station-repairs-andrew-cuomo


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## jis (May 5, 2017)

jis said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> > If the LD trains could not run into NYP, would they continue as far as PHL? I have a trip planned to LI in July during a work period, but as long as the train reached PHL I could still make it to the LIRR using a combination of SEPTA, NJT, PATH, and NYC Subway.
> ...


Coming to think of it, the one LD train in greatest danger of being affected is the Lake Shore Limited, since it passes through a hard to avoid single point. Although with some care in planning it may be avoidable too. The other trains have many alternative paths through the station, and it is hard to imagine that they will knock out all those paths at the same time.


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## Maverickstation (May 5, 2017)

Another story, this from the NY Times, listing how many days services could be impacted.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/02/nyregion/amtrak-penn-station-repairs-track-closings.html?_r=0

Ken


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## railiner (May 5, 2017)

jis said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> ...


The Lake Shore (or a special shuttle train from ALB), could operate into NYG during those closures....

I know...the MTA would 'never' allow that....


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## jis (May 5, 2017)

The problem will be getting the Lakeshore consist serviced mechanically, specially if a car needs to be swapped out. The same obstruction that keeps it from getting to Penn Station will keep it from getting to Sunnyside, unless a convoluted move via Mott Haven, Woodlawn and New Rochelle is made. Yeah, such has been done before, but just as a one off, not as a daily thing.


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## railiner (May 5, 2017)

What I suggested as a possibility, was to turn and service the Lake Shore at ALB, and run a shuttle train to connect it to NYG. Such a train, with say a Dinette, could be stocked for the round trip, and looped at GCT...


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## west point (May 5, 2017)

railiner said:


> What I suggested as a possibility, was to turn and service the Lake Shore at ALB, and run a shuttle train to connect it to NYG. Such a train, with say a Dinette, could be stocked for the round trip, and looped at GCT...


There would be no way to rotate equipment for its periodic maintenance at MIA. If Amtrak is not able to run ALB > NYP for an extended period some thing will need some rotation thru New Rochelle or BOS if hopefully some diners come from CAF ?


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## Thirdrail7 (May 5, 2017)

west point said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > What I suggested as a possibility, was to turn and service the Lake Shore at ALB, and run a shuttle train to connect it to NYG. Such a train, with say a Dinette, could be stocked for the round trip, and looped at GCT...
> ...


If it comes to a long term outage, you will likely see the schedules adjusted so the Lake Shore, Adirondack and Maple Leaf can operate the Hell Gate line. The complete outage of the impacted tracks shouldn't take too long. It is the rest of the Empire Service that becomes an issue.

Even if they used the above plan, it is still easy enough to rotate equipment to MIA. All you have to do is have the equipment continue east on 448 to BOS. At BOS, you add it to ND67 and transfer the car at WAS. If the car doesn't affect track the MAS for a regional (AM2, AM1, etc), you can add it to 179, which terminates in NYP. They can add it the equipment to 91 or 97 in SSYD. If it is a weekend, they can send it on 169 to WAS and transfer to HIA. This of course assumes that some other facility can't handle the PM work. The PM facilities have increased over the last few years. A car may not have to go to HIA unless there is a major issue.

There are always options.


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## railiner (May 6, 2017)

I didn't know about the requirement to go to Miami for PM...surprised to hear it could't be accomplished in Chicago...

If that's the case, they could also get the cars from Chicago to Miami via New York on the Cardinal....

But as was said, the outage for the Empire Connection track rehab hopefully wouldn't take too long, making none of those measures necessary...


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## jis (May 6, 2017)

The rehab in question is not of the Empire Connection track but of what is called the U Ladder (IIRC) which has to be crossed to get to the Empire Connection. There are ways of working around it with a little careful planning, so the outage should not be long, if there is any at all.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (May 25, 2017)

The Amtrak website is showing sold out for the Crescent to all points north of Washington for most of July and August, so I presume it will be terminating and originating there. It

appears that passengers bound for points north of Washington will have to transfer there to a Northeast Regional or Acela. The Cardinal, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor do not appear to be affected. However, multiple

Regionals also appear to be cancelled. Although it is still possible to book tickets for all trains on the Empire Corridor, Grand Central

Terminal is now appearing as a station option so I assume those adjustments will soon follow.


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## west point (May 26, 2017)

So far web site shows 7 trains NYP <> WAS cancelled. Crescent cancellations north of WASH will mean one less consist need for the Crescent. Maybe will enable consist to be added to other Crescent consists. That will also help the critical diner situation.


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## jis (May 26, 2017)

There is an interesting message on trainroders which talks about testing the viability of running some Amtrak Regionals and Acelas to Hoboken, by test running equipment that way. May be just for the purposes of validating contingencies. But clearly, every option is being looked at.


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## west point (May 26, 2017)

jis said:


> There is an interesting message on trainroders which talks about testing the viability of running some Amtrak Regionals and Acelas to Hoboken, by test running equipment that way. May be just for the purposes of validating contingencies. But clearly, every option is being looked at.


The test running has much merit. Suppose Amtrak finds major problems with the subgrade of a track(s)? It could be while tracks are removed boring samples may be taken? Worse still best to test is case of a North river tunnel bore having to be shut down ? Or the absolute bad a major failure of Portal bridge ?


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## PRR 60 (May 26, 2017)

I have to say I am very impressed with how Amtrak is approaching this work. Clearly there's a new sheriff in town, and this guy is no-nonsnense. It's basically: here's what we have to do, here's how we have to do it, and all of us, including Amtrak, will share the pain. There is no way of knowing for sure, but I kind of think that former management would not have taken this straight forward, honest approach.

Maybe it's because he's a civil engineer?


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## west point (May 26, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> I have to say I am very impressed with how Amtrak is approaching this work. Clearly there's a new sheriff in town, and this guy is no-nonsnense. It's basically: here's what we have to do, here's how we have to do it, and all of us, including Amtrak, will share the pain. There is no way of knowing for sure, but I kind of think that former management would not have taken this straight forward, honest approach.
> 
> Maybe it's because he's a civil engineer?


Yes very true. Amtrak is certainly sharing the pain. More importantly Mooreman is making best use of time to prevent future problems.


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## jis (May 26, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> I have to say I am very impressed with how Amtrak is approaching this work. Clearly there's a new sheriff in town, and this guy is no-nonsnense. It's basically: here's what we have to do, here's how we have to do it, and all of us, including Amtrak, will share the pain. There is no way of knowing for sure, but I kind of think that former management would not have taken this straight forward, honest approach.
> 
> Maybe it's because he's a civil engineer?


Considering that the pussyfooting over the years by the previous sheriff is what brought us here, I think you are probably right. The primary goal appears to have changed from "keep the political peace at any cost", to "fix the danged thing and take the necessary heat for the overall good of everyone". Now only if Cuomo and Christie could stop grandstanding and get on with the program, but that is unlikely. They have zero understanding of issue and are both ambitious career politicians who don't care much beyond their career, and sometimes they are not even good at that.


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## Mystic River Dragon (May 26, 2017)

jis said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say I am very impressed with how Amtrak is approaching this work. Clearly there's a new sheriff in town, and this guy is no-nonsnense. It's basically: here's what we have to do, here's how we have to do it, and all of us, including Amtrak, will share the pain. There is no way of knowing for sure, but I kind of think that former management would not have taken this straight forward, honest approach.
> ...


I agree with both of you completely. I am absolutely fed up with NJ and NY already complaining about the delays, goaded by the two governors. Why is it that commuters from these areas see nothing wrong with sitting in the same traffic jam in the same spot with the same construction for years, but when it's rail, and for a needed reason, it's unacceptable?


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## Thirdrail7 (May 26, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> I have to say I am very impressed with how Amtrak is approaching this work. Clearly there's a new sheriff in town, and this guy is no-nonsnense. It's basically: here's what we have to do, here's how we have to do it, and all of us, including Amtrak, will share the pain. There is no way of knowing for sure, but I kind of think that former management would not have taken this straight forward, honest approach.
> 
> Maybe it's because he's a civil engineer?


I share your thoughts. I don't think the previous regime would have handled it this way but there is a reason for that. Mr. Moorman can make these sort of decisions and not really worry about burning any future bridges or dealing with political payback since he has made it perfectly clear he does not intend to stay around long.

Therefore, he doesn't really need to kowtow to anyone. He can plunge ahead which is the way it should've been all along. It is refreshing to see an operations person at the helm. I've met him briefly and no nonsense is an understatement. He's a professional but he's not here to mingle, make friends, small talk or brownie points. The last time I felt a presence so cold was when I first met my future in-laws!

I think a lot of people (particularly employees that started their careers with Mr. Boardman at the helm) are in for a surprise. ^_^


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## Thirdrail7 (May 26, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> The Amtrak website is showing sold out for the Crescent to all points north of Washington for most of July and August, so I presume it will be terminating and originating there. It
> 
> appears that passengers bound for points north of Washington will have to transfer there to a Northeast Regional or Acela. The Cardinal, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor do not appear to be affected. However, multiple
> 
> ...



If you look hard enough, you'll notice three less Keystones operating between PHL-NYP-PHL and you'll see one should turn in NWK. I believe they are still waiting for final approval to merge 63 and 69 at NYP and reschedule 69 between ALB-MTR.


----------



## railiner (May 26, 2017)

jis said:


> There is an interesting message on trainroders which talks about testing the viability of running some Amtrak Regionals and Acelas to Hoboken, by test running equipment that way. May be just for the purposes of validating contingencies. But clearly, every option is being looked at.


Interesting....if they run a Washington to Hoboken train, why terminate there? Perhaps they can possibly run at least one trip from Washington thru to Albany over the River Line? (I know...over CSX's dead body  )


----------



## railiner (May 27, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> I have to say I am very impressed with how Amtrak is approaching this work. Clearly there's a new sheriff in town, and this guy is no-nonsnense. It's basically: here's what we have to do, here's how we have to do it, and all of us, including Amtrak, will share the pain. There is no way of knowing for sure, but I kind of think that former management would not have taken this straight forward, honest approach.
> 
> Maybe it's because he's a civil engineer?


Shades of the old PRR, of the 19th and early 20th centuries....while most other railroads across the nation were headed by financier's, the PRR rose to its premier status, by having civil engineer's running the company.

When the financier's finally prevailed, that led to the companies eventual demise....


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## Acela150 (May 27, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say I am very impressed with how Amtrak is approaching this work. Clearly there's a new sheriff in town, and this guy is no-nonsnense. It's basically: here's what we have to do, here's how we have to do it, and all of us, including Amtrak, will share the pain. There is no way of knowing for sure, but I kind of think that former management would not have taken this straight forward, honest approach.
> ...


Boy oh boy I could have told you that! :lol:


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## CCC1007 (May 27, 2017)

And the daily news is belly aching about the maintenance plan

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/free-northeast-amtrak-clutches-article-1.3198139


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## jis (May 30, 2017)

Amtrak schedule changes to accommodate upcoming work at New York Penn Station announced (except Empire Service changes):

http://media.amtrak.com/2017/05/amtrak-announces-schedule-changes-speed-infrastructure-renewal-new-york-penn-station/


----------



## PRR 60 (May 30, 2017)

jis said:


> Amtrak schedule changes to accommodate upcoming work at New York Penn Station announced (except Empire Service changes):
> 
> http://media.amtrak.com/2017/05/amtrak-announces-schedule-changes-speed-infrastructure-renewal-new-york-penn-station/


Thanks for posting. No Amtrak in Hoboken. Probably makes operational sense.


----------



## jis (May 30, 2017)

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak schedule changes to accommodate upcoming work at New York Penn Station announced (except Empire Service changes):
> ...


Not yet at least. Though they are doing test runs of all equipment to Hoboken apparently.


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## Maverickstation (May 30, 2017)

jis said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


I don't think we will see _*regular*_ Hoboken service, but it's good to have test runs, and whatever is needed to qualify crews.

If there are any issues that cause a tunnel to be shut, Hoboken could be pressed into it's first ever Amtrak service (inspections trips and the like not counting).

Ken


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## Acela150 (May 30, 2017)

YouTube video with the boss himself doing the explaining. Which I like. That way people know its coming from the top.


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## west point (May 30, 2017)

Mr. Moorman certainly is trying to cover all possible contingencies, By testing Hoboken now Amtrak and NJT can make operational plans. There certainly could be tracks there or sidings not suitable for some Amtrak equipment. As well maybe some track improvements to the connecting line Newark Penn to Hoboken ? Could be CAT power supply would need some upgrading ? Wonder where the CAT power changes from 12kV 25 Hz to 25kV 60 Hz?

If improvements needed that would benefit both Amtrak and NJT


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## west point (May 30, 2017)

Formal announcement of schedule changes except Albany

http://media.amtrak.com/2017/05/amtrak-announces-schedule-changes-speed-infrastructure-renewal-new-york-penn-station/


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## jis (May 31, 2017)

west point said:


> Formal announcement of schedule changes except Albany
> 
> http://media.amtrak.com/2017/05/amtrak-announces-schedule-changes-speed-infrastructure-renewal-new-york-penn-station/


Forgot to read the thread before posting eh? This link is posted just half a dozen or so posts before yours


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## striker64 (May 31, 2017)

I'm curious why the Crescent is the only train terminating/originating in DC, and not the Silvers/Cardinal. I'd imagine there's a reason, but that in particular piqued my interest as a one-time semi-frequent Crescent rider.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## AmtrakBlue (May 31, 2017)

striker64 said:


> I'm curious why the Crescent is the only train terminating/originating in DC, and not the Silvers/Cardinal. I'd imagine there's a reason, but that in particular piqued my interest as a one-time semi-frequent Crescent rider.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


My uneducated guess is timing and/or # of pax north of WAS since pax between NYP and WAS would need to take up space on regionals to get to/from WAS.


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## railiner (May 31, 2017)

I would guess the same... the "Silver's" carry more passengers to and from NY, NJ, & MD, then the Crescent, I believe...

Not sure about the Cardinal...


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## AmtrakBlue (May 31, 2017)

railiner said:


> I would guess the same... the "Silver's" carry more passengers to and from NY, NJ, & MD, then the Crescent, I believe...
> 
> Not sure about the Cardinal...


Hey, you left out DE.


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## jis (May 31, 2017)

striker64 said:


> I'm curious why the Crescent is the only train terminating/originating in DC, and not the Silvers/Cardinal. I'd imagine there's a reason, but that in particular piqued my interest as a one-time semi-frequent Crescent rider.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


According to postings by Thirdrail, our resident Amtrak expert, WAS is barely able to turn one LD train, so there is no question of turning multiple ones there. As for why the Crescent, apparently you get the maximum advantage in terms of reduced traffic at Penn Station at the most critical times by removing it from Penn Station for the time being, while incurring the least inconvenience all around.


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## railiner (May 31, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > I would guess the same... the "Silver's" carry more passengers to and from NY, NJ, & MD, then the Crescent, I believe...
> ...


Oops...and PA....


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## AmtrakBlue (May 31, 2017)

railiner said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Well, since many think DE is in PA .....


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## west point (May 31, 2017)

The layover of Crescent in WASH probably has the best ability to have an on time departure southbound from WASH. As well when any of the Crescent's sleepers needs to go to MIA that will be easy as well any V-2 diners to be attached to a southbound Meteor. Crescent Amfleets no problem servicing at Ivy City or Bear.

.

Crescent passengers are getting a bonus during this time as it appears that listed connections north of WASH are going to be on Acelas with what appears to be no fare difference. Someone needs to research that in more detail.

On another note the shortened or cancelled NEC regional trains may have their equipment added to other NEC trains so capacity may not be reduced ?


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (May 31, 2017)

west point said:


> The layover of Crescent in WASH probably has the best ability to have an on time departure southbound from WASH. As well when any of the Crescent's sleepers needs to go to MIA that will be easy as well any V-2 diners to be attached to a southbound Meteor. Crescent Amfleets no problem servicing at Ivy City or Bear.
> 
> .
> 
> ...


From ATL-NYP on July 10th and 11th, the price appears to be $129.20 via a Regional and $288.00 via an Acela.


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## west point (May 31, 2017)

> "brianpmcdonnell17"
> 
> From ATL-NYP on July 10th and 11th, the price appears to be $129.20 via a Regional and $288.00 via an Acela.


Is that Crescent BC to Acela BC ? And Crescent sleeper to Acela First ? Those are better comparsionss


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (May 31, 2017)

west point said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> > Both are the cheapest fares available, so coach on the Crescent and Regional and business class on the Acela.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 1, 2017)

jis said:


> striker64 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious why the Crescent is the only train terminating/originating in DC, and not the Silvers/Cardinal. I'd imagine there's a reason, but that in particular piqued my interest as a one-time semi-frequent Crescent rider.
> ...



Jis hit the nail on the head. Under normal operating conditions, if 20 arrives within tolerance in NYP, you have a lot of train in the station. Between 145pm and 220p, trains 19,20, 93,174, 235, 290, 647, 2110 and 2121 are all in the station. 235 is already on the chopping block but 19 and 20 have the most dwell time. They key to this whole operation is to reduce the dwell time in the station so track space is available. Personally, I would have preferred to see 647 removed from the picture.



west point said:


> The layover of Crescent in WASH probably has the best ability to have an on time departure southbound from WASH. As well when any of the Crescent's sleepers needs to go to MIA that will be easy as well any V-2 diners to be attached to a southbound Meteor. Crescent Amfleets no problem servicing at Ivy City or Bear.
> 
> .


19 might have a later departure time out of WAS so that would increase the margin of safety.



west point said:


> .
> 
> Crescent passengers are getting a bonus during this time as it appears that listed connections north of WASH are going to be on Acelas with what appears to be no fare difference. Someone needs to research that in more detail.


I'm not sure if that is a bonus. I'd prefer a sleeper without a transfer.



west point said:


> On another note the shortened or cancelled NEC regional trains may have their equipment added to other NEC trains so capacity may not be reduced ?


That is the plan. The leftover equipment will be used on other trains.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 1, 2017)

Amtrak appears to be allowing bookings for the some of the southbound LD and medium-distance trains within the corridor. This includes the Southbound Carolinian, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor. Bookings are still not allowed on the Cardinal for unknown reasons and the Crescent is excluded because of it's truncation at Washington. Bookings are still not permitted on any of the northbound versions of these trains, presumably due to the low OTP rates when compared to the Regionals and Acelas. Another change on the website is that the cancelled trains have disappeared entirely, rather than appearing as sold out as they previously did.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 1, 2017)

The southbound Carolinian has always allowed on corridor sales. They are adding a few stops to compensate for the loss of 183. Additional stops will be added to other trains to make up for missed stops. The notable exception is northbound passengers at Newark, Delaware.

They are reluctant to use the northbound long distance trains for OTP reasons.


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## fairviewroad (Jun 1, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> If you look hard enough, you'll notice three less Keystones operating between PHL-NYP-PHL and you'll see *one should turn in NWK*.


Now that's a rare bird. I wonder when was the last time Amtrak operated a train that was scheduled to either begin or end its trip in NWK?


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## west point (Jun 1, 2017)

A friend in WASH was able to book a LD northbound when he discovered it was on time that day by contacting an agent.


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## jis (Jun 1, 2017)

fairviewroad said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > If you look hard enough, you'll notice three less Keystones operating between PHL-NYP-PHL and you'll see *one should turn in NWK*.
> ...


Actually turning a push-pull consist in Newark is a little bit easier now ever since the two pocket tracks were commissioned at Hudson/Rea.


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## JackieTakestheTrain (Jun 5, 2017)

Hi -- so it looks like if I am reading this right, the Cardinal and certain other trains are impacted by this changes, correct?

Does anyone know what the plan may be for those of us who are handicapped and need assistance at the NYP?

My guess is that the track work may impact how the redcaps work, too....

Thanks!

-Jackie


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## Steve4031 (Jun 5, 2017)

Jackie, Idon think this will effect red caps. The track work involves repairing and upgrading tracks and switches. Iirc some platforms may be temporarily out of service. Thus the need to cut service in and out if nyp. When you travel the red caps will know where to take you to board strain.


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## Acela150 (Jun 6, 2017)

Official Schedules were posted.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/231/321/Keystone-Service-Schedule-071017.pdf

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/47/400/Northeast-Schedule-W02-071017.pdf

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/702/345/Crescent-Schedule-071017.pdf


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 8, 2017)

Acela150 said:


> Official Schedules were posted.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/231/321/Keystone-Service-Schedule-071017.pdf
> 
> ...



I think linking 20 to 176 (along with 650's passengers at PHL) is a disaster waiting to happen. What is the backup plan if 20 is late? Are you putting them on 94? What happens to their luggage?? (Blank stares)


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 8, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > Official Schedules were posted.
> ...


I assume that the baggage will be carried up on 92, which is an annoyance for many passengers. Would it be operationally possible to add a baggage car to 176 on the affected days? When I travel on this routing next month I plan to spend the day around NYC and go back to NYP around 7:30 to claim my bags and get an LIRR connection. Hopefully it works better than last time, when my luggage arrived in NYP the day before me. It was placed in the lost and found, where I assumed it would be. However, I was not told that it would not be open when I arrived on 64. Following this, the employee at lost and found insisted it was at the baggage claim area, where I checked and ended up filing a missing bag report. I returned to lost and found later, where they continued to deny that the bags were there despite the fact that I could see them behind the counter.


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## Acela150 (Jun 9, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > Official Schedules were posted.
> ...


I had that thought as well. 94 is a train I avoid like the plague. ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS SRO. Last time I rode 94 I was on the Head end and getting off at PHL it was a mob scene for folks getting on and off.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Jun 9, 2017)

Will the Crescent go from 4 to 3 consists during the truncation, there is plenty of time for same day turnaround in DC eliminating a trainset?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 9, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I assume that the baggage will be carried up on 92, which is an annoyance for many passengers. Would it be operationally possible to add a baggage car to 176 on the affected days? When I travel on this routing next month I plan to spend the day around NYC and go back to NYP around 7:30 to claim my bags and get an LIRR connection. Hopefully it works better than last time, when my luggage arrived in NYP the day before me. It was placed in the lost and found, where I assumed it would be. However, I was not told that it would not be open when I arrived on 64. Following this, the employee at lost and found insisted it was at the baggage claim area, where I checked and ended up filing a missing bag report. I returned to lost and found later, where they continued to deny that the bags were there despite the fact that I could see them behind the counter.


176 is a LYH-BOS train. In theory, they could add the bag when they swap the engines. However, that would mean the bag would have to stay until BOS. That probably wouldn't be the end of the world assuming there is a bag to to make the trip, but that adds one more car to the consist when there is already a limitation in Boston. You'd sacrifice coach seating for bag service on a train that is usually quite busy...without 20's or 650's passengers.



Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Will the Crescent go from 4 to 3 consists during the truncation, there is plenty of time for same day turnaround in DC eliminating a trainset?


Yes. Washington doesn't really have the room to store it during the day, so it'll be a same day turn in the S&I.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Jun 10, 2017)

Any idea what the extra Crescent set will be used for?


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## west point (Jun 10, 2017)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Any idea what the extra Crescent set will be used for?


Pure speculation.

With a spare V-1 sleeper make it 3 sleepers on Crescent. But that is not good for lack of demand south of ATL. Now extra coach on Crescent does make sense.

Extra sleeper on Cardinal ? Probably not enough traffic.

Extra coach on Meteor now that sounds promising during summer peak season. May be with couple spare V-1sleepers add another sleeper to Meteor ?

Diner ? One less Heritage diner in rotation maybe using it as spare somewhere.

EDIT:

Afterthought if Crescent had an added V-1 sleeper maybe it would be financially positive to make 2 sleepers be cut off cars at ATL. Probably not enough time to implement ?


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## Maverickstation (Jun 10, 2017)

_*Not that it will happen*_, but running the Crescent to and from WAS only, means it _*COULD*_ be equipped with Superliners.

Ken


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## OBS (Jun 10, 2017)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Any idea what the extra Crescent set will be used for?


Nothing...LOL


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## A Voice (Jun 10, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> _*Not that it will happen*_, but running the Crescent to and from WAS only, means it _*COULD*_ be equipped with Superliners.
> 
> Ken


Just for the sake of argument, where are you gonna get 35 or so Superliners to do that?

The short turn at Washington is only temporary anyway, of course.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 10, 2017)

A Voice said:


> Maverickstation said:
> 
> 
> > _*Not that it will happen*_, but running the Crescent to and from WAS only, means it _*COULD*_ be equipped with Superliners.
> ...


You're right that is extremely unlikely, but it is interesting that it is possible. This means that in a situation where something delays 20 by many hours and the eastbound CL arrives ontime, Superliner equipment could be operated for a round-trip on the Crescent (and single-level equipment on the CL). A similar situation caused the Cardinal to use Superliners a few years ago. I believe that was due to the sudden re-opening of the line following a freight derailment.


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## Ryan (Jun 10, 2017)

Except then there is no equipment to operate the Cap back westbound while it's equipment takes a tour of the south.

In the example you're thinking of, the Superliner Cardinal originated in CHI since there wasn't a Cardinal set on hand and CHI has a bunch of Superliner equipment on hand.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 10, 2017)

Ryan said:


> Except then there is no equipment to operate the Cap back westbound while it's equipment takes a tour of the south.
> 
> In the example you're thinking of, the Superliner Cardinal originated in CHI since there wasn't a Cardinal set on hand and CHI has a bunch of Superliner equipment on hand.


It is an unlikely scenario. However, if something were to occur where 20 could reach DC but EXTREMELY delayed than it could occur (for example a 24 hour late train). The consist of the arriving 30 usually sits in DC for more than 24 hours, so the Crescent's consist could arrive in time for 29.


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## railiner (Jun 10, 2017)

Maverickstation said:


> _*Not that it will happen*_, but running the Crescent to and from WAS only, means it _*COULD*_ be equipped with Superliners.
> 
> Ken


Personally, I would not like to see that, even if it were possible...

As a matter of fact, I would like to see the Capitol run with single-level equipment...and for that matter, only run Superliner's on western long distance trains.

It is kind of neat, when you are on a transcontinental journey, from East to West, and transition from single-level equipment to Superliner's for the western leg of your trip. The variation adds to the interest. Not to mention, the efficiency of keeping all similar type equipment at maintenance bases.

Also the ease of merging the Pennsylvanian with the Capitol at Pittsburgh, and even the possibility of extending the Capitol to New York, similar to the Cardinal, although they might want to wye it before or after leaving WAS, so less likely to happen......


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## Ryan (Jun 10, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Except then there is no equipment to operate the Cap back westbound while it's equipment takes a tour of the south.
> ...


You're correct, *A* Crescent will arrive, but not *THE* Crescent that has the Superliner equipment. That won't be back for a few more days. That would make for a mighty late 29.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Jun 10, 2017)

Not to mention unexpectedly changing equipment messes up the reservations due to different capacities of the cars. There was an oddity where the Crescent was made up of Superliner spares in New Orleans when the southbound didn't arrive in time to turn for the north bound. The train truncated in DC and the equipment was dead headed back.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Jun 10, 2017)

With this lasting for two months it would be worth while to break up the 4th trainset for added capacity on other trains....


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 10, 2017)

Ryan said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


That is why I stated that single-level equipment would be used on the CL in such a case.


----------



## Acela150 (Jun 10, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> ...


I'm sorry but that's just dumb. Why would Amtrak take Superliner's from a Superliner equipped train and swap it with single levels.


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## jis (Jun 10, 2017)

I concur with those that suggest that this swap is a non feasible idea because it will take too many contortions to unwind. I doubt that it will ever be done.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 10, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> ...


The people booked in bedroom C, D, E, roomette a 11-14, and the Family room over the following few days may take issue with that.


----------



## Palmland (Jun 10, 2017)

My son who uses NJT mid-town direct service from Morristown says service has become 'unbearable' and now drives into Manahhatan. Sept 1 can't come soon enough.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 11, 2017)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> With this lasting for two months it would be worth while to break up the 4th trainset for added capacity on other trains....


There's only so much that you can yield from breaking up the set. Remember, you've created an orphan set with no protection that travels to another area without protection. The diner situation is still critical so this will help alleviate some of the strain. Therefore, I expect to see a viewliner, an AM-2 and a diner left in WAS as protection. The rest can be dispersed throughout the system.



Palmland said:


> My son who uses NJT mid-town direct service from Morristown says service has become 'unbearable' and now drives into Manahhatan. Sept 1 can't come soon enough.



I'm greatly concerned about this line of thinking. I hope that people haven't deluded themselves into thinking that the delays around the NYT district will magically disappear after this track work is complete. All this will do is refresh some of the components of the infrastructure. It does nothing to address the fact that the station is still working above capacity, the infrastructure leading up to it as well as the power systems range from 86 to 105 years old and as long as that is the case, delays will not go away.


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 13, 2017)

*Empire Service*

Progressive Railroading

reveals that Empire Service trains will be running into GCT. Will Amtrak be borrowing Metro North engines to do that?

jb


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## jis (Jun 13, 2017)

According to the most recent leaks, the answer is "No". MNRR actually does not have all that many dual modes to spare from its own schedule.

Amtrak trains will be running on the two center tracks in the Park Avenue Tunnels, where locomotives without nose doors for emergency escape can be used, using its own P32ACDMs fitted with MNRR compliant 3rd rail shoes.

BTW, there is not much ion that article that is new and that has not been discussed at length already in this thread.

Here is a more comprehensive article from NY Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/12/nyregion/lirr-train-schedule-penn-station-repairs.html?_r=0


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 13, 2017)

I didn't know it was that easy to change over to MNRR compliant third rail shoes.

jb


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## jis (Jun 13, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> I didn't know it was that easy to change over to MNRR compliant third rail shoes.
> 
> jb


Has been done more than once before, to work around access issues into Penn Station, or when Penn Station was flooded.


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## railiner (Jun 13, 2017)

And the truth be known, it's not unknown for them to run the trains all the way into GCT under diesel power, legal or not...

Back in the FL-9 era, that occurred often...


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## jis (Jun 13, 2017)

railiner said:


> And the truth be known, it's not unknown for them to run the trains all the way into GCT under diesel power, legal or not...
> 
> Back in the FL-9 era, that occurred often...


As I understand it, the law is about Steam, and does not say much about Diesel. There are railroad regulations that lay down procedures for running live diesel into GCT. But I could be wrong of course.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jun 13, 2017)

Correct, there is no law, preventing diesel operations, but MN rules state that entering the GCT/park avenue complex in diesel needs permission from operations center for revenue trains.

MN demands electric operations unless its failure or emergency.

The Amtrak trains are scheduled revenue trains.

one or two sets of MN third rail gear were loaned to Amtrak for this, one was spare set, other came of a MN unit that will be out for long term overhaul.

the trains involved are :230/233 -- 236/235 -- 242/239.


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## jld (Jun 14, 2017)

I thought there was also talk of combining outbound maple leaf and adirondack until Albany , is this no longer under consideration?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 15, 2017)

jld said:


> I thought there was also talk of combining outbound maple leaf and adirondack until Albany , is this no longer under consideration?



It is under consideration but there are numerous issues that may not get solved by the time this kicks in.

I believe a test train to GCT is heading to GCT in the immediate future.


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## Maverickstation (Jun 15, 2017)

jld said:


> I thought there was also talk of combining outbound maple leaf and adirondack until Albany , is this no longer under consideration?


An issue with this would be the fact that a peak ridership period for the Adirondack is the Saratoga racing season, July 21, to September 4.

Ken


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 16, 2017)

When will the plan to run trains into Grand Central Terminal be officially announced? Will the schedules and reservations system reflect the change?

jb


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## Dutchrailnut (Jun 16, 2017)

as I posted a while back : the trains involved in GCT operation are :230/233 -- 236/235 -- 242/239

there should be no changes to schedule or reservations.


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 16, 2017)

Dutchrailnut said:


> as I posted a while back : the trains involved in GCT operation are :230/233 -- 236/235 -- 242/239
> 
> there should be no changes to schedule or reservations.


Then I imagine many passengers will be surprised when they arrive at GCT instead of NYP. And how will the reservations system handle the connections since passengers will now be required to transfer between the two?

jb


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## jis (Jun 16, 2017)

Change of station is a change in schedule and itinerary which Amtrak should be notifying its customers individually and collectively about, unless it has decided to become measurably worse than the worst airline.

We are yet to see the modified schedules. We don't know whether Amtrak will re-institute the transfer bus between NYP and NYG. I am almost ecrtain that any guaranteed transfer itinerary will be modified to reflect the extra time needed for the transfer.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 16, 2017)

Wouldn't connections in nyp involve taking a train to nyp and then catching the next train? One would think that a person booking a trip from alb-mia would be booked through nyp. Might be a longer layover.


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## jis (Jun 16, 2017)

Steve4031 said:


> Wouldn't connections in nyp involve taking a train to nyp and then catching the next train? One would think that a person booking a trip from alb-mia would be booked through nyp. Might be a longer layover.


The issue is when the normal connecting train from the Empire Corridor arrives in NYG. If only the west of Albany trains operate to NYP on a modified schedule, that will also have to be taken into account.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 16, 2017)

What I was hoping us that Amtrak's reservation system could be programmed to automatically do that. I suspect I'm being to optimistic.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 16, 2017)

jis said:


> We are yet to see the modified schedules. We don't know whether Amtrak will re-institute the transfer bus between NYP and NYG. I am almost ecrtain that any guaranteed transfer itinerary will be modified to reflect the extra time needed for the transfer.





Steve4031 said:


> What I was hoping us that Amtrak's reservation system could be programmed to automatically do that. I suspect I'm being to optimistic.


These are some of the details still being worked on. While the res system can likely handle it (which is did in the past), there needs to be a mode of transfer (which is an issue). At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if this became a self transfer with through travel arriving on scheduled NYP trains.

In any event, they were supposed to run a test train into GCT to test the third rail shoe conversion and 51 will carry travel from NWK and TRE over the corridor.


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## railiner (Jun 16, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > as I posted a while back : the trains involved in GCT operation are :230/233 -- 236/235 -- 242/239
> ...


I would imagine a fair number of Empire route passenger's would actually prefer arriving/departing from GCT, if it could be on a permanent basis....


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 16, 2017)

Count me in when it comes to running more Trains to/from GCT including the Lake Shore!

I just watched "North by Northwest" last night on TCM! The 20th Century out of GCT ( Roll out the Red Carpet!) was " The way to Roll"

back in the Golden Days of Passenger Rail!


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## railiner (Jun 16, 2017)

While that would be nostalgic, I think the long distance trains should remain at Penn Station, for the benefit of transfer's, etc....but a few regional trains from Albany or Boston to GCT, for the benefit of those simply destined to that side of town, would be a convenience for many...


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## west point (Jun 16, 2017)

Now if NY state would spring for a few more trains the present number could return to NYP and some to NYG ?


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 16, 2017)

Notice I only mentioned the Lake Shore to/from GCT since it Begins/Terminates in NY and is a North by Northwest bound train! All other LD Trains head South so they can stay at NYP like in the PRR Glory Days!


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## PVD (Jun 16, 2017)

Much as I love GCT, establishing a new commissary, a new baggage claim, a new lounge, asking passengers from the NEC North of NY to transfer to MN to get to GCT(they aren't going to go to Boston for a ridiculously long trip across Mass) and handling maintenance since the train won';t go to SSYD for one train, just is not going to happen.


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## jis (Jun 16, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Notice I only mentioned the Lake Shore to/from GCT since it Begins/Terminates in NY and is a North by Northwest bound train! All other LD Trains head South so they can stay at NYP like in the PRR Glory Days!


It won't happen simply because it will increase cost of operation seriously without any significant growth in revenue. That additional money is much better spent elsewhere where it could be more productive.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 16, 2017)

Of course y'all are right, but we all have our Train Fantasy!

As someone who actually got to ride to/from GCT and NYP during the Golden Days just can't forget how nice it was compared to today's NYD! ((D=Dungeon)


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jun 16, 2017)

I'm traveling on the Cardinal out of NYP on July 7. Will I recieve any disruptions?


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## PVD (Jun 16, 2017)

The only temporary timetable I've seen for Amtrak trains heading South out of NYP starts on 7-10- 17 so I don't think so,, but as all things Amtrak, that could change.


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## Acela150 (Jun 16, 2017)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> I'm traveling on the Cardinal out of NYP on July 7. Will I recieve any disruptions?


No.


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## Ryan (Jun 17, 2017)

To be fair, he'll probably see some disruptions, this is the Cardinal we are talking about.

But this won't be the cause of them.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 17, 2017)

Bob Dylan said:


> Of course y'all are right, but we all have our Train Fantasy!
> 
> As someone who actually got to ride to/from GCT and NYP during the Golden Days just can't forget how nice it was compared to today's NYD! ((D=Dungeon)


We understand your fantasy. I like the idea of arriving in the grandeur of Grand Central myself. But the problem is that foamers spend too much time actually lobbying for public transit resources that should be allocated to projects that functionally approve the effectiveness and reliability of public transit, for the purpose of doing things like restoring and arriving in a grand ediface... when for instance the purpose of this thread is that we are going to have a mess this summer because said resources were not available to maintain the reliable function of a major terminal.


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## PVD (Jun 17, 2017)

I grew up in a no car household, and had relatives living in Baltimore, going out of Penn was how we got there. I'm sure it was a wonderful place at one time, but I don't remember it being so nice in the 60's, PRR let it get pretty bad, and the neighborhood was dicey. While many of us wax nostalgically about "the great old Penn Station" if half the number of people who say today how terrible it was to get rid of it and build MSG were against replacing it then, it might still be there. Like the WTC, until it got knocked down, most people I know would tell you how they couldn't stand it. Luckily, its (Penn Station) demise led to a changed attitude about landmarks preservation, and we still have GCT.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 17, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> We understand your fantasy. I like the idea of arriving in the grandeur of Grand Central myself. But the problem is that foamers spend too much time actually lobbying for public transit resources that should be allocated to projects that functionally approve the effectiveness and reliability of public transit, for the purpose of doing things like restoring and arriving in a grand ediface... when for instance the purpose of this thread is that we are going to have a mess this summer because said resources were not available to maintain the reliable function of a major terminal.


This is the line of thinking that concerns me. All the funding in the world is not going to help an overstuffed, outdated piece of infrastructure. The biggest resource is actually time. There isn't enough time to get everything that needs to get done between the trains.

Take a look at the whining that is occurring a for two month project. Can you imagine if Amtrak decided to take the necessary step of undercutting the High Line? That would mean a few weeks of single tracking between NWK-NYP. The reality of the situation is no one wants to give up their slots or train to perform the work. As such, projects occur 55 hours at a time, which is insane for the amount of traffic that NYP sustains.

The thing that amuses me the most is the railroads STILL want to stiff more trains into NYP, knowing that is overburdened. For every additional train that is run, that is another slot of maintenance lost and another minute of lost life expectancy.

I've said it for years. The resources need diversification and better utilization. Amtrak going to GCT with a few trains is a start in the right direction. It would be nice if this were a permanent solution. I seriously hope all of these alternative plans work so well, that a lot of them become permanent solutions to the overcrowding of Penn. As one editor wrote in response to Gov "Pay attention to me" Cuomo's ludicrous and whiny 'it will be a summer of "Hell", we're already in Hell!"


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jun 17, 2017)

The latest in terms of schedule/service changes: https://www.amtrak.com/NYPrenewal


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## Acela150 (Jun 18, 2017)

Ryan said:


> To be fair, he'll probably see some disruptions, this is the Cardinal we are talking about.
> 
> But this won't be the cause of them.


Haaaa! You're right too!


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## Anderson (Jun 19, 2017)

Not mentioned in Amtrak's press releases as far as I can tell: The Meteor, Star, and Cardinal are available for coach booking SB NYP-WAS (the Crescent is excluded for obvious reasons). Also not highlighted: The Crescent's timetable got shoved back by about 90 minutes (it now leaves WAS at 1955), something which is actually going to improve my trip to Atlanta for DragonCon slightly (if nothing else, I can relax more at breakfast). 97 is actually the Crescent's connection at WAS...but pax can only book a roomette starting at WAS (I have to presume that there will either be a very big dinner seating out of WAS or a bunch of seriously annoyed Crescent pax).

An interesting wrinkle with this shuffle: The Crescent now probably only needs three sets (I would sure _hope_ that 20 could turn as 19 in 8 hours, and I suspect the later time out of WAS was to accommodate this), so that saves a diner, two Viewliners, and I suspect four LD Amfleets. Is there any discussion about where this equipment might show up? The Viewliners seem like candidates for the Cardinal, but considering the oft-mentioned booking issues on here I'd _seriously_ consider the LSL to be a solid use of the stuff (even if the train could only run longer four days out of the week, that's _got _be better than idling the equipment).

Considering the whole cluster surrounding this, I'm sort-of surprised that Amtrak didn't open up any of the LD trains to bookings NB with a note of "Look, this train is coming from New Orleans/Miami/Chicago and OTP may stink." Axing three Regionals is nothing to sneeze at (even if I incessantly forget _which_ Regionals got cut) and for once I have to presume that they really _need_ the capacity (even if they might need to lock some of the space). Normally I do understand why this isn't done, but this isn't "normally" either.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 19, 2017)

Anderson said:


> Not mentioned in Amtrak's press releases as far as I can tell: The Meteor, Star, and Cardinal are available for coach booking SB NYP-WAS (the Crescent is excluded for obvious reasons). Also not highlighted: The Crescent's timetable got shoved back by about 90 minutes (it now leaves WAS at 1955), something which is actually going to improve my trip to Atlanta for DragonCon slightly (if nothing else, I can relax more at breakfast). 97 is actually the Crescent's connection at WAS...but pax can only book a roomette starting at WAS (I have to presume that there will either be a very big dinner seating out of WAS or a bunch of seriously annoyed Crescent pax).
> 
> An interesting wrinkle with this shuffle: The Crescent now probably only needs three sets (I would sure _hope_ that 20 could turn as 19 in 8 hours, and I suspect the later time out of WAS was to accommodate this), so that saves a diner, two Viewliners, and I suspect four LD Amfleets. Is there any discussion about where this equipment might show up? The Viewliners seem like candidates for the Cardinal, but considering the oft-mentioned booking issues on here I'd _seriously_ consider the LSL to be a solid use of the stuff (even if the train could only run longer four days out of the week, that's _got _be better than idling the equipment).
> 
> Considering the whole cluster surrounding this, I'm sort-of surprised that Amtrak didn't open up any of the LD trains to bookings NB with a note of "Look, this train is coming from New Orleans/Miami/Chicago and OTP may stink." Axing three Regionals is nothing to sneeze at (even if I incessantly forget _which_ Regionals got cut) and for once I have to presume that they really _need_ the capacity (even if they might need to lock some of the space). Normally I do understand why this isn't done, but this isn't "normally" either.


I believe ThirdRail7 already answered your questions.
The time was pushed back to allow one of the silvers to be the feeder from the north.

Some or all of the cars will stay in WAS as protect.


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## dlagrua (Jun 20, 2017)

It appears that NYC will finally start construction on a new Penn station maybe even later this year to be completed by 2020. The drawings look nice but I haven't read how Amtrak will be included in the plans. Good info here:

https://ny.curbed.com/2017/6/16/15821866/penn-station-governor-cuomo-redevelopment.


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## west point (Jun 20, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> The time was pushed back to allow one of the silvers to be the feeder from the north.
> 
> Some or all of the cars will stay in WAS as protect.


So why not have a thru sleeper from silver to Crescent ?

If Crescent #20 late just attach sleeper to next NEC regional ?


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## railiner (Jun 20, 2017)

dlagrua said:


> It appears that NYC will finally start construction on a new Penn station maybe even later this year to be completed by 2020. The drawings look nice but I haven't read how Amtrak will be included in the plans. Good info here:
> 
> https://ny.curbed.com/2017/6/16/15821866/penn-station-governor-cuomo-redevelopment.


Nice article, thanks for posting it!

One of the rendering's shows an aerial view of the new glass roof over the courtyard of the post office...All the times I've been into that post office, and deep below it on the diagonal platform, I never knew it existed. I thought it was just a solid building....


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## Blackwolf (Jun 20, 2017)

Those renderings are getting quite a bit of use right out of the gate. Just watched a 30-second commercial paid for by the State of New York that used those exact graphics as a large part of their presentation. Mixed in with other large-scale projects either finished, under way or proposed all around the State, it gives the impression that New York City and State are the best places to do business and visit because they're so much more advanced and modern than the rest of the country.

The only issue I had with an otherwise enticing commercial is the impression that projects like Moyinhan were very much finished and one could expect to take a train into NYC and visit that rendered station tomorrow. Could certainly lead to some serious head-scratching for some visitors when they are instead treated to the catacombs of NYP.

On the track work, I'm cautiously wary of any overruns in the project timeline since I'll be using the station in mid-September. The LSL is not mentioned in any of the amended timetables, so I presume it should not be impacted by the work in any negative way. On the other hand, with the return to California being made by flying cigar tube, I'm not so comfortable that the work won't impact the Long Island JFK shuttle service from Penn to Jamaica. Just one of those things to be aware of once in the City.


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## railiner (Jun 20, 2017)

If you're worried about LIRR service to connect with the Airtrain at Jamaica, you could take the subway instead, ('E' train), and save some money too, although it does take about twice the time....


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 20, 2017)

The LIRR has enough frequencies that getting to JFK should not be an issue, although the trains may be more crowded than normal. The subway option is also available, as stated by railiner.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 21, 2017)

PVD said:


> I grew up in a no car household, and had relatives living in Baltimore, going out of Penn was how we got there. I'm sure it was a wonderful place at one time, but I don't remember it being so nice in the 60's, PRR let it get pretty bad, and the neighborhood was dicey. While many of us wax nostalgically about "the great old Penn Station" if half the number of people who say today how terrible it was to get rid of it and build MSG were against replacing it then, it might still be there. Like the WTC, until it got knocked down, most people I know would tell you how they couldn't stand it. Luckily, its (Penn Station) demise led to a changed attitude about landmarks preservation, and we still have GCT.


Now that's funny, because I used to go through Penn Station quite a bit during my teenage joyriding years in the late 1960s, and I actually thought the newly-built rat's maze was kind of cool, like something out of Star Trek. There was actually a reasonably impressive entrance from Pennsylvania Plaza where the cabs dropped you off, down some escalators into a rotunda which contained a large electronic departure board you could read as you descended the escalator, which took you right to the large bank of ticket counters. Of course, back then, everything was sparkly new, and the place wasn't as dingy as it is today. I think the crowds were lesser to, so the place, while busy, wasn't the zoo it is today. And you also had to be into modernist architecture.


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## jis (Jun 21, 2017)

Moorman fires back at threats to withhold payments to Amtrak...

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Amtrak-Fires-Back-as-LIRR-Declares-It-Wont-Pay-Rent-During-Penn-Station-Work-429944213.html

I think Moorman has got it right and the two Governors are just indulging in political posturing one upmanship that does not help in improving the situation for any user of the system.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 22, 2017)

You are absolutely right, jis.

I am glad to see in the article that Mr. Moorman sounds tougher than he usually does--he's a true gentleman, but he's dealing with a crowd that is not used to civility.

A very annoying part of this situation is that his energy and Amtrak's resources are being drained by just one city. Yes, New York is an extremely important city, but this mess is taking resources and focus away from saving the long-distance trains and from other cities served by train that get one train a day if they are lucky.

Would it be at all possible for Amtrak to just get rid of NY Penn? Have it privatized or have NJT and LIRR take it over? And for Amtrak trains that must go through New York to use Grand Central Station again? Then the commuters who are complaining now about NY Penn would have a real mess there, and those of us who just want to get in and out of New York as fast as possible on our way to somewhere else would not.


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 22, 2017)

Grand Central *Terminal* (not station) is stub-ended. You can't go through it.

jb


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## PVD (Jun 22, 2017)

It is the busiest station in the Amtrak network (for Amtrak, without the commuters). There is no practical way for GCT to serve anything going West-South, or requiring regular SSYD access. Like it or not, the NEC carries a huge portion of Amtrak's passengers and generates a major chunk of its revenue in a relatively small segment of it's overall network. Much of it is owned and not at the mercy of freight railroads.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 22, 2017)

As I stated above, there are a lot of people that are in for a surprise. He's not some politician that is looking for exposure. He ran a for profit railroad that didn't think twice about canceling trains to get the work done. While he marveled at NYP congestion and operations, he regarded it as another piece of infrastructure. In his mind, the delays are on the back burner. The infrastructure must be tackled, regardless of the pain.

I particularly love these statements:



> "The only rent the LIRR currently pays to Amtrak for Penn Station New York, under its 1988 lease, is some $148,000 a year for exclusive use of its Level A Concourse and three platforms serving six tracks," according to Moorman.
> 
> That lease, which runs for 99 years, "must be among the best deals in New York City."
> 
> ...





> Finally, Moorman points out, Amtrak actually leases a portion of the MTA's own Metro-North infrastructure. And when Metro-North experienced its own string of failures and outages in 2013, Amtrak never sought to recoup the $50 million it invested in the Metro-North infrastructure, or the revenue it lost during the service failures and delays.
> 
> "During these incidents, Amtrak did not disparage Metro North, or seek to gain advantage from the situation," Moorman wrote. "Instead, Amtrak offered assistance to restore Metro-North's infrastructure, and has not to date pursued claims for the millions in losses we have incurred as Amtrak regularly experiences the worst on-time performance for our trains on any section of the Northeast Corridor -- currently in the low 80 percent range -- which is far below the performance levels regularly achieved by LIRR on our railroad."





> Moorman emphasized that "all users" at Penn Station need to make sufficient investments to improving Penn Station, and working together will make a better case for additional federal, state and private funding.
> 
> Source: Amtrak Fires Back as LIRR Declares It Won't Pay Rent During Penn Station Work | NBC New York http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Amtrak-Fires-Back-as-LIRR-Declares-It-Wont-Pay-Rent-During-Penn-Station-Work-429944213.html#ixzz4kkDBsnJ7
> Follow us: @nbcnewyork on Twitter | NBCNewYork on Facebook



He's not going to run and hide. If I'm Gov Cuomo, I'd tone down the rhetoric before someone calls it like it is. This is a smoke screen to distract everyone from the subway meltdowns, the LIRR ESA overruns and Metro-North's 20 year catenary project.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 22, 2017)

Thank you, John and PVD, for correcting me on the GCT name and also reminding me that New York is the busiest Amtrak station. As you can tell, even though I live just an hour or so south of New York City, I never, ever visit there (haven't been there for 40 years). When I have to go through it on Amtrak to get to New England, I just cross my fingers and close my eyes til we're through it. 

I see why GCT can't be used for Amtrak, but isn't there some other possibility for a different station? It just seems to me that having to deal with NY Penn is too much trouble.


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## railiner (Jun 22, 2017)

What a nightmare this is becoming.... unless you happen to be a lawyer, that is, and get a piece of the action...


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 22, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> He's not going to run and hide. If I'm Gov Cuomo, I'd tone down the rhetoric before someone calls it like it is. This is a smoke screen to distract everyone from the subway meltdowns, the LIRR ESA overruns and Metro-North's 20 year catenary project.


To say nothing of the smoke screen on the NJ side from Gov. Cuomo's counterpart to distract from years of miserable funding for and neglect of NJ Transit. Plus of course NJ Transit's own miserable performance in recent years.


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 22, 2017)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Thank you, John and PVD, for correcting me on the GCT name and also reminding me that New York is the busiest Amtrak station. As you can tell, even though I live just an hour or so south of New York City, I never, ever visit there (haven't been there for 40 years). When I have to go through it on Amtrak to get to New England, I just cross my fingers and close my eyes til we're through it.
> 
> I see why GCT can't be used for Amtrak, but isn't there some other possibility for a different station? It just seems to me that having to deal with NY Penn is too much trouble.


There isn't. Only the Pennsylvania railroad built tunnels under the Hudson River, and they lead right to Penn Station through the interlocking where the heavy work is to be done.

Grand Central Terminal and Penn Station are the only *railroad* passenger facilities in Manhattan.

jb


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jun 22, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, John and PVD, for correcting me on the GCT name and also reminding me that New York is the busiest Amtrak station. As you can tell, even though I live just an hour or so south of New York City, I never, ever visit there (haven't been there for 40 years). When I have to go through it on Amtrak to get to New England, I just cross my fingers and close my eyes til we're through it.
> ...


Okay, I see--thank you. My horoscope this morning said to make my point quickly then be quiet, so I will bow out gracefully now (having definitely not taken its advice!)


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## A Voice (Jun 22, 2017)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I see why GCT can't be used for Amtrak, but isn't there some other possibility for a different station? It just seems to me that having to deal with NY Penn is too much trouble.


Yes, and in fact that is the only real and complete long-term solution. Even with completely rebuilt infrastructure (much more than the current work) and Gateway tunnels, you cannot just continue stuffing more and more trains into Penn Station. But it would take years, and the cost for a new station, tunnels, and other necessary infrastructure would be utterly staggering (dwarfing even Gateway's price tag). Of course, with the lack of infrastructure investment in this country, a proper solution is not going to happen.


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## west point (Jun 22, 2017)

Let us face it. Underground infrastructure is not sexy. It will always be ignored until a crisis happens. Look at the Flint MI water line problems. Even my own city is ignoring a major problem. Only about 5% of population that includes many civil engineers acknowledge the problems.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 22, 2017)

Anderson said:


> Considering the whole cluster surrounding this, I'm sort-of surprised that Amtrak didn't open up any of the LD trains to bookings NB with a note of "Look, this train is coming from New Orleans/Miami/Chicago and OTP may stink." Axing three Regionals is nothing to sneeze at (even if I incessantly forget _which_ Regionals got cut) and for once I have to presume that they really _need_ the capacity (even if they might need to lock some of the space). Normally I do understand why this isn't done, but this isn't "normally" either.


Back around 1975 I was about to buy a regular unreserved coach ticket from Baltimore to New York and ride one of the equivalents of todays Northeast Regionals. The agent played around with his computer terminal and told me that there was a late train coming up from Florida, and would I mind (for the same price) taking that one which would leave earlier and get me in earlier. i did so, and not only was the train faster, not making as many stops, the room in the coach seats was enormous with incredible legroom (plus the car was half empty), and I had much more luxurious ride than usual.

In 1972 I rode the Southern Crescent from New York to Philadelphia. I think it was still a Southern Railway train at the time, but Amtrak tacked on a few coaches for local travel between New York and Washington. I believe that's the time I rode a Penn Central green P70 heavyweight coach at 100 mph.

When did Amtrak stop selling seats between New York and Washington on the long-distance trains?


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## PVD (Jun 22, 2017)

For a myriad of reasons (most valid), the present Penn Station is not well liked. Things were very different in the 60's, and what was not great but adequate for the traffic patterns of that era quickly fell out of date, and because of the decisions of that time, like siting MSG on top of it, really constrains the ability to make things better without a huge capital expenditure. The Moynihan plan helps with appearance and passenger flow, but without additional tunnel and track/platform capacity you are merely putting lipstick on a pig. I take Amtrak trains out of NYP on a regular basis, and as a NY Rangers ticket holder, take the subway or LIRR and go through fairly often. Certainly no oohs and ahs like looking up in GCT, but considering the volume I think it does a better job than it gets credit for. (I'm talking about the passenger flow perspective, not rail ops)


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## west point (Jun 22, 2017)

PVD does seem to be on the correct track ! The Penn Station crisis can only be solved by constructing the Gateway tunnel bores, Building Penn south station to handle the extra passengers . Once all the Gateway projects are complete ( 2 new bores, present north river tunnel bores repaired, Portal north and Portal south bridges, 4 tracking Newark - NY, Secaucus loop ) Penn south has the potential to allow for double the number of passengers from the south ( NJT and some Amtrak ). How much new station space ? Not defined yet ! Just 8 new tracks and 4 platforms ( much wider ) ? Not enough IMHO.

Penn south needs the tracks and platforms to be at least 18 cars long + 2 locos so maybe two trains can be parked on one station track. The other item is East river tunnel bores 5 &6 need building to allow for Penn south trains to continue to BOS or Sunnyside ( that is on hold until water tunnel #3 is complete in queens and loops to south Manhattan ).

In our opinion MSG has to go to allow for passenger space to be built above present NYPS.


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## jis (Jun 22, 2017)

I think people are a bit confused about the whole Penn South story. There are several parts (not necessarily in chronological order) to the Penn South plan.

Part 1. Penn South Upper level station with six tracks terminating just around 7th Ave. together with connections to the Gateway Tunnels and the original North River Tubes. The connection toe the Gateway Tunnel through the tunnel boxes that have been discussed in this forum elsewhere, at length I might add, actually connect through a bellmouth, one for each tunnel. More on the reason in Part 2. These bell mouths will be near the river bank for later additional construction.

Part 2. Penn South Lower level station, a four track deep station built using TBMs deep below Penn South Upper, this one with four tracks, connecting to the Gateway Tunnels via the bellmouths mentioned in Part 1, and no connections to the original North River Tunnels, together with deep bored tunnel exiting to the east. The exact routing to be determined by NEC Futures plans.

Part 3. Possible eastward tunnel from Penn South Upper to Queens under the East River. This has also been mentioned as something that will be decided later, but the vertical placement of the tracks in Penn South Upper is carefully designed so that such an eastward breakout will not interfere with the 7th Ave and 6th Ave Subway Lines and 6th Ave PATH Station.

There are no water tunnel issues with the breakout from Penn South Upper. It is relatively shallow tunnel at 6th Ave and follows the same contour as the 33rd and 32nd Street eastward exit tunnels from Penn Station. It is just that they would be under 31st St. The water tunnel issue was with an eastward breakout from the ARC terminus station which was designed to be much deeper than the proposed Penn South Upper station. There may be an issue with it with respect to the Penn South Lower station, but the details of it are fuzzy enough to know for sure. In any case that is way out in the future as far as anyone can tell.

It looks like at least the 6 terminating track South extension to Penn Station, making it a 27 platform track station will become reality. The rest of it is stuff that is being designed in, but whether it will be built or not is a separate issue. Penn Station South will be almost exclusively used by NJ Transit according to early operating plans that have been mentioned, and they will not have any direct access from Moynihan concourse. There may be a long tunnel built along the edge of 31st St to connect the M Concourse to the Mezzanine concourse to access those platforms, or it may just be something tacked onto the proposed passageway from the M Concourse to the platforms for tracks 1-4.


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## west point (Jun 22, 2017)

JIS thanks for the Penn south clarifications. However believe Wiki states water tunnel 3 is being routed thru Queens to connect at Manhattan south. Then it will connect to water tunnel 1 which runs the length of Manhattan and will allow for restoration of Water #1 and allow for additional RR tunnel bores under the east river.


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## jis (Jun 22, 2017)

You are most welcome!

That Water tunnel 1 was an issue with extension to the east from the ARC station. If Wiki says that water tunnel 1 has anything to do with Penn Station South it is simply wrong/confused. Actually it was Water Tunnel 1 that was one of the major issues that got ARC killed, among several others, including no connection from the old North River Tubes.

I and several others actually have sat with the gentleman who was in charge of the Gateway Penn South Capital Plan development and gone over the charts and diagrams. Water Tunnels were never an issue with breaking out to the east from Penn South. The big issue was weaving the tunnel among the 6th and 7th Ave Subway tunnels and PATH. Considerations of those actually caused the plan to be modified to place the Penn Station South tracks at alevel several feet lower than tracks 1-4 specially at the east end, so that they could safely pass under the 6th and 7th Ave Subway and PATH as they are extended to the east. That has now been fully addressed in the design and nothing stands in the way of eastbound extension to Queens, should such be decided at some point. Extending to Grand Central OTOH is a completely different kettle of fish and it is pretty difficult to achieve that without causing extreme disruption to the Lexington Avenue Line apparently, so it is unlikely to happen from Penn South Upper at least.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 22, 2017)

These last several posts represent the best of AU. A respectful discussion sharing ideas. And I learned quite a bit about the Penn south plans. Thank you.


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## west point (Jun 22, 2017)

JIS--- It has been stated that there was concern by NY city that if tunneling too close to water tunnel #1 it could collapse. Believe it was built with cast iron sections. If old cast iron ??? Any truth to these statements ?


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## jis (Jun 23, 2017)

west point said:


> JIS--- It has been stated that there was concern by NY city that if tunneling too close to water tunnel #1 it could collapse. Believe it was built with cast iron sections. If old cast iron ??? Any truth to these statements ?


Yes. But it has nothing to do with any tunnels that may be built eastwards from NYP South Upper. That was related to the old deep ARC station under 34th St. It could again become an issue for the deep NYP South Lower if and when that happens. But there are many possible work arounds, like for starters choosing a depth that is far removed from the water tunnel.


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## railiner (Jun 23, 2017)

I still believe that instead of building that long East Side Access for the LIRR to reach GCT, they should have instead tunneled south from there, and built some kind of wye connection to the four existing lines under 33rd and 31st Streets. Perhaps adding another tunnel or two, if the anticipated traffic required it. Think of all the possibilities that would have allowed....especially if they connected the new line with the Park Avenue MN tunnel at some point north of GCT...


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## PVD (Jun 23, 2017)

Affordable options were somewhat limited by decisions made 40+ years ago. When the 63rd st tunnel was conceived, the original plan was a new terminal at around 48th and second ave linking to the second ave subway. ESA is plan B.


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## west point (Jun 23, 2017)

If Water tunnel #1 is cast iron any new tunnels anywhere need for #1 refurbished first before tunneling anywhere near.

ESA as we have read was to give access for many commuters to the GCT area without having to make 2 subway connections from NY Penn ?.


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## jis (Jun 23, 2017)

west point said:


> If Water tunnel #1 is cast iron any new tunnels anywhere need for #1 refurbished first before tunneling anywhere near.
> 
> ESA as we have read was to give access for many commuters to the GCT area without having to make 2 subway connections from NY Penn ?.


Will you get off of your Water Tunnel 1 obsession. At present it is a complete non-issue. It is way way deep down and no one is tunneling anywhere near it for anything. Until NJT came up with their crazy scheme to send their trains down half way to china under 34th St., it was not even in anyone's consciousness.

Actually GCT bound folks from LIRR could at least in theory do it with just one subway connection from Hunterspoint Avenue (to #7), but there were not that many trains that went to Hunterspoint Avenue.. In any case, yeah, it was meant to give direct access to the GCT area and also increase overall capacity to Manhattan.


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## PVD (Jun 23, 2017)

ESA/GCT was not the original concept. You really didn't want to dump more onto the Lex heading South. But the landscape of the area around GCT and the evolution of the far West Side make Manhattan commuter densities very different than what was envisioned originally. Opening up the areas to the East of GCT towards the UN might have been interesting. But it really doesn't matter now, it is going into GCT. And most of the development in the financial district and Midtown has been far West Side.


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## jis (Jun 23, 2017)

Hence the utter oddity of deciding not to build the 10th Ave station on the #7 extension and leave it for another day  Also, for all practical purposes, getting from Penn Station to the area around Javits Center is still just a loooong walk and so it shall be to the Hudson yards development for the foreseeable future.


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## PVD (Jun 23, 2017)

Absolutely correct. The omission of the 10th ave station just made no sense in terms of the potential development dollars that could have been unlocked. Perhaps cynically I wonder if Related and Brookfield did not do their damnedest to enhance their investments (Hudson yards and Manhattan West) by working behind the scenes against the station. Nothing going directly West from Penn is folly.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jun 23, 2017)

The tail tracks from ESA are fairly close to NYP , but again at wrong depth, , NY DEP will not allow any excavation within 200 feet of water tunnel no 1 and incline from ESA cavern to NYP level would have been to steep.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NY-BP731A_NYSTA_G_20120426200005.jpg

https://www.tunneltalk.com/images/East-Side-Access/Manhattan-active-contracts-full.jpg


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## jis (Jun 23, 2017)

Thanks Dutch. Yes there are several possibilities of connecting NYP to NYG:

1. NYP tracks 1-4 or the new South tracks to lower level of NYG. This involves moving at least one of the IRT Lex Ave line tracks out of the way, and is unlikely to happen.

2. NYP tracks to ESA cavern - problem mentioned by Dutch.

3. NYP South lower level, if/when it is built to ESA cavern, most likely will face Water Tunnel 1 issues, though the devil may be in the details of what exact depth is chosen for the lower level station. Clearly it will have to be a ta depth that allows breakout to the east without interfering with Water Tunnel 1, because its sole purpose is to provide a through station for the true high speed corridor.

So on the whole there are significant problems and obstacles no matter which way you try to go.

But the bigger problem will always be, what the heck do you do with the trains that arrive there from NJ


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## PVD (Jun 23, 2017)

I'd almost be happy if the T/S - GCT shuttle could come down the 7th Ave to NYP


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## jis (Jun 23, 2017)

PVD said:


> I'd almost be happy if the T/S - GCT shuttle could come down the 7th Ave to NYP


Unfortunately, it connects into the IRT 1/2/3 facing the wrong way at Times Square, due to the way history worked out.


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## railiner (Jun 23, 2017)

If they would have built the connection I mentioned above, it would not have been way down at the ESA cavern level, so no steep ramp would be necessary...it would just be deep enough to not conflict with the existing subway lines under Park Avenue and 42nd Street. To avoid the subway, it could even have been built under Madison Avenue, and angle eastward, where the subway line angles that way from Park Avenue to Lexington Avenue...just low enough to cross under the 7 and Shuttle routes beneath 42nd Street, and then either below the GCT lower level tracks, or parallel to them along the west side of GCT....


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## Dutchrailnut (Jun 23, 2017)

Railliner lets stick to reality not some jerk off fantasy ??

no matter what level you dig to, there is something in way under NY city.

stick to reality , people with a lot more brains have tried to find solutions .


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 25, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I believe they are still waiting for final approval to merge 63 and 69 at NYP and reschedule 69 between ALB-MTR.







Thirdrail7 said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > I thought there was also talk of combining outbound maple leaf and adirondack until Albany , is this no longer under consideration?
> ...


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## jis (Jun 29, 2017)

Very nice graphics showing exactly what work is being done. Also becomes obvious why they do not need to divert all Empire Service trains to GCT through the repair period. The ones being moved are mainly to reduce traffic at NYP, not because they cannot get in there should it be necessary.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-penn-station-summer-construction-creates-commuting-hell/


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## Steve4031 (Jun 29, 2017)

Excellent article Jis.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 29, 2017)

According to the Wikipedia article on Penn Station, at its peak in WW2, about 100 million people per year passed through the station. Today, about 600,000 peple per day pass through. That's 219 million per year! No wonder it's a zoo. I wonder if we'd be complaining about Penn Station even if the old station had been preserved.


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## ehbowen (Jun 29, 2017)

MARC Rider said:


> I wonder if we'd be complaining about Penn Station even if the old station had been preserved.


Probably. That's in our wheelhouse, after all.


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## Agent (Jun 29, 2017)

Amtrak posted a time-lapse video today of twenty-two hours of work in Penn Station.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 1, 2017)

jis said:


> Very nice graphics showing exactly what work is being done. Also becomes obvious why they do not need to divert all Empire Service trains to GCT through the repair period. The ones being moved are mainly to reduce traffic at NYP, not because they cannot get in there should it be necessary.
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-penn-station-summer-construction-creates-commuting-hell/


For the record, no one except buffs on another board even mentioned sending all of the Empire trains to GCT. The only time it was contemplated was during a possible 55 hour outage and even then, the NRO route would be explored.



Thirdrail7 said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> > I assume that the baggage will be carried up on 92, which is an annoyance for many passengers. Would it be operationally possible to add a baggage car to 176 on the affected days? When I travel on this routing next month I plan to spend the day around NYC and go back to NYP around 7:30 to claim my bags and get an LIRR connection. Hopefully it works better than last time, when my luggage arrived in NYP the day before me. It was placed in the lost and found, where I assumed it would be. However, I was not told that it would not be open when I arrived on 64. Following this, the employee at lost and found insisted it was at the baggage claim area, where I checked and ended up filing a missing bag report. I returned to lost and found later, where they continued to deny that the bags were there despite the fact that I could see them behind the counter.
> ...


It looks like they are going to attempt your idea. They are finalizing a plan to add additional coaches and a bag to the connecting trains that will handle 20's passengers (scheduled as 176 but it can go to other regional trains if necessary.)


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## jis (Jul 1, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Very nice graphics showing exactly what work is being done. Also becomes obvious why they do not need to divert all Empire Service trains to GCT through the repair period. The ones being moved are mainly to reduce traffic at NYP, not because they cannot get in there should it be necessary.
> ...


Yup. I remember that set of conversations I think on rr.net and also on Facebook. When I refuted that based on your info one of the railfans even got upset because his dream of rolling into GCT on the LSL pretending it was the 20th Century Limited or something like that, was not going to be fulfilled


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## Train2104 (Jul 3, 2017)

Service alert for GCT reroutes: https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251653727006

No alerts issued for 63/69 being combined, which is reflected in ARROW. GCT is not bookable yet, nor are PDF timetables available.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 5, 2017)

The timetables are up. The NYG city code lives once again!!


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 5, 2017)

Now all we need is for the 20th Century Ltd. ( aka the Lake Shore)to once again Roll out the Red Carpet.


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## jis (Jul 5, 2017)

The Lake Shore is not going to Grand Central


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## west point (Jul 5, 2017)

Amtrak is providing absolutely no service at NYG. No agents, ticket counters, TVMs, baggage. It will be up to the goodness of their hearts if MNRR personnel will help those persons ?


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 5, 2017)

The trains which are being diverted to NYG don't carry baggage anyway. Tickets are all online now.

I'm wondering how people will find the proper track for the northbound trains. Will the display boards be updated? Will temporary signs be installed?

jb


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## PVD (Jul 5, 2017)

Still lots of NYP to Albany and back service for anyone who needs service or assistance. And its only M-F.


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## railiner (Jul 5, 2017)

IIRC, the last time an Amtrak train had to divert to NYG, the departure signs did have a means to list them....

And I'm fairly confident, Amtrak will send some usher's or supervision over from NYP to assist traveler's, and/or train crews there....


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2017)

At minimum, a couple of folks to deal with handicapped/wheelchair assistance makes sense.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 6, 2017)

railiner said:


> And I'm fairly confident, Amtrak will send some usher's or supervision over from NYP to assist traveler's, and/or train crews there....





PVD said:


> At minimum, a couple of folks to deal with handicapped/wheelchair assistance makes sense.


It doesn't appear this will be the case:



> *Customer Assistance: Amtrak employees will not be available at Grand Central Terminal to assist customers. Amtrak conductors will assist customers getting on and off the train. Customers who need assistance are encouraged to use other Empire Service trains at New York Penn Station. Note that Grand Central Terminal is an accessible station.*



They took the typical "commuter" trains and sent them to NYG. As I previously suggested, it is a self transfer station without services.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 6, 2017)

Train2104 said:


> Service alert for GCT reroutes: https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251653727006
> 
> No alerts issued for 63/69 being combined, which is reflected in ARROW. GCT is not bookable yet, nor are PDF timetables available.


pdf timetables are here:

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/537/512/Empire-Service-W08r-071017.pdf


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## NY Penn (Jul 6, 2017)

MARC Rider said:


> Train2104 said:
> 
> 
> > Service alert for GCT reroutes: https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251653727006
> ...


Interesting that NYG is shown as having a Quick Trak machine. That's probably a typo though...


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## Dutchrailnut (Jul 6, 2017)

even Amtrak trains can call ahead and get red cap assistance from MN station service, no need to bring Amtrak people into foreign terminal, or time claims would ensue.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 6, 2017)

Reading reports on FB that a NJT derailed on Track 10 tonight. Just one car.


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## railiner (Jul 6, 2017)

Dutchrailnut said:


> even Amtrak trains can call ahead and get red cap assistance from MN station service, no need to bring Amtrak people into foreign terminal, or time claims would ensue.


Not so sure about that last point.....Amtrak operated from NYG before Metro North even existed...and they did have their own ticket clerks, station supervisor's ,trainmaster's, commissary worker's, and mechanical personnel there, right up to the time of moving all operations to NYP.


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## Acela150 (Jul 6, 2017)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Reading reports on FB that a NJT derailed on Track 10 tonight. Just one car.


Track 11 according to an Amtrak engineer blocking part of the ladder as well.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 6, 2017)

Acela150 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Reading reports on FB that a NJT derailed on Track 10 tonight. Just one car.
> ...


Yeah, now I remember someone corrected someone who.... 10 is close to 11, right?


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## Acela150 (Jul 6, 2017)

Ha! 10 is close to 11. Actually right next door.


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## Acela150 (Jul 7, 2017)

Wick Moorman appeared on CBS' This Morning Program to address the A Interlocking renewal.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amtrak-penn-station-new-york-renovations-mta-summer-of-hell/


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 8, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > With this lasting for two months it would be worth while to break up the 4th trainset for added capacity on other trains....
> ...





Anderson said:


> Not mentioned in Amtrak's press releases as far as I can tell: The Meteor, Star, and Cardinal are available for coach booking SB NYP-WAS (the Crescent is excluded for obvious reasons). Also not highlighted: The Crescent's timetable got shoved back by about 90 minutes (it now leaves WAS at 1955), something which is actually going to improve my trip to Atlanta for DragonCon slightly (if nothing else, I can relax more at breakfast). 97 is actually the Crescent's connection at WAS...but pax can only book a roomette starting at WAS (I have to presume that there will either be a very big dinner seating out of WAS or a bunch of seriously annoyed Crescent pax).
> 
> An interesting wrinkle with this shuffle: The Crescent now probably only needs three sets (I would sure _hope_ that 20 could turn as 19 in 8 hours, and I suspect the later time out of WAS was to accommodate this), so that saves a diner, two Viewliners, and I suspect four LD Amfleets. Is there any discussion about where this equipment might show up? The Viewliners seem like candidates for the Cardinal, but considering the oft-mentioned booking issues on here I'd _seriously_ consider the LSL to be a solid use of the stuff (even if the train could only run longer four days out of the week, that's _got _be better than idling the equipment).



As I previously suggested, by the time they add equipment to accommodate transferring and displaced travel, there isn't much left to disperse. This is particularly true when it comes to the extra long distance set. They actually had to come up with and EXTRA bag so they could transfer 20's bag to 176 or 94 and some of the coaches from the extra set are being used for connecting passengers.


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## Acela150 (Jul 10, 2017)

I was looking at Amtrak.com and they have some interesting things posted to help folks understand what's going on. First a diagram of Penn Station with tracks being labeled as well as platforms. As well as a "Railroad Terminology" file which may be of interest to some of you. I'll put both links here.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/646/177/Penn-Station-Track-System.pdf

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/927/361/Guide-to-Key-Railroad-Terminology-Northeast-Corridor.pdf


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## jis (Jul 11, 2017)

Acela150 said:


> I was looking at Amtrak.com and they have some interesting things posted to help folks understand what's going on. First a diagram of Penn Station with tracks being labeled as well as platforms. As well as a "Railroad Terminology" file which may be of interest to some of you. I'll put both links here.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/646/177/Penn-Station-Track-System.pdf
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/927/361/Guide-to-Key-Railroad-Terminology-Northeast-Corridor.pdf


Interesting that they identify the old "towers" as the interlockings. Of course, nothing much happens there anymore except that they are the control point "huts". Everything happens at PSCC.

The explanation on slides 5 and 8 are more accurate.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 11, 2017)

NYP is quite peaceful when all trains are on the rail and you divert 200 trains away from it.


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 11, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> NYP is quite peaceful when all trains are on the rail and you divert 200 trains away from it.


Let's see,

Empire Service = 6

Maple Leaf = 2 (combined with Adirondack)

NE Regional = 6

Keystone = 6

Crescent = 2

Total Amtrak = 22

What's the breakdown between LIRR and NJT?

jb


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 11, 2017)

From one of my friends, Amtrak engine 95 is running between Grand Central and Albany. I thought that this engine was a straight diesel. Is this being used in protect service only?

jb


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## jis (Jul 11, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > NYP is quite peaceful when all trains are on the rail and you divert 200 trains away from it.
> ...


The Maple Leaf is combined with the Adirondack only northbound. Southbound they run as separate trains. This is to reduce slot and platform needs during the morning rush hours. In the evening they arrive way after the rush hours, so no slot/platform issues.

I think you forgot to count the other 179 LIRR and NJT trains that are not coming to Penn Station during this period. In terms of number of trains Amtrak is a small potatoes user of Penn Station when compared to NJT and LIRR.


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 11, 2017)

jis said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > Thirdrail7 said:
> ...


Didn't forget - was asking for the LIRR and NJT numbers.

jb


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## jis (Jul 11, 2017)

NJT would be somewhere between 40 and 50 Morristown Line and Gladstone Line Midtown Directs arrivals and departures.

LIRR appears to be same order of magnitude during rush hours, but not clear what else they are canceling or diverting at other hours, beyond the three or four overnight trains between 2am and 4am. One concrete number I could find is that 17 evening rush hour trains won't run from Penn Station. Could not find a corresponding number for the morning or for the balance of the day.


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## west point (Jul 11, 2017)

Now if only the ESA was in service there would have been very little disruption to LIRR ?


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 11, 2017)

LIRR service will be cut by about 20%, so if anyone knows the number of LIRR trains per weekday into Penn Station, divide that number by 5 to get an approximate number of LIRR trains that are cancelled or rerouted per day.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 11, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> From one of my friends, Amtrak engine 95 is running between Grand Central and Albany. I thought that this engine was a straight diesel. Is this being used in protect service only?
> 
> jb


The Amtrak trains operating to/from Grand Central Terminal have two locomotives so some consists run with one P42 which can be shut down if necessary when in Grand Central.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 11, 2017)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> LIRR service will be cut by about 20%, so if anyone knows the number of LIRR trains per weekday into Penn Station, divide that number by 5 to get an approximate number of LIRR trains that are cancelled or rerouted per day.


I counted 188 trains in each direction per weekday into NYP on the LIRR, meaning about 75 total trains are cancelled per day on the LIRR (both directions combined). This is from the City Terminal Zone schedule only, so certain trains such as the diesel expresses may be missing. Based on the previously state numbers of about 65 Amtrak and NJT trains, one would expect about 135 LIRR trains rather than 75. While there are likely more than 75 cancelled LIRR trains, is it possible there is also some NJT trains we are missing to make up the 60 train gap?


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## Agent (Jul 14, 2017)

Amtrak posted two more videos this morning. One features Wick Moorman, and the second one is another time-lapse video.


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## PaTrainFan (Jul 14, 2017)

So what is the verdict on Week 1 of the Summer of Hell? From what I have been able to glean, it was fairly tame and not quite the catastrophe Dr. Doom (Gov. Cuomo) and the Giant Beachball (Gov. Christie) predicted. Narcissistic politicians do not like to be proven wrong. I am sure it was an inconvenience for a significant number of people but it appeared to be far from the expected disaster.


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## jis (Jul 14, 2017)

Anticlimax! The media is in utter despair!


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 14, 2017)

Real Fake News!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 15, 2017)

Here are a  few pictures (from another board) of what is left of 10 track. 10 is one of the tracks that is blocked on the west end due to the work on the Xs (featured in the video above). The opportunity exists to work on the bed and overhaul parts of the platform. The eastern portion of 7 track received this treatment a few weeks ago.


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## railiner (Jul 15, 2017)

jis said:


> Anticlimax! The media is in utter despair!


Love it when the media is standing around disappointed by "nothing to report" .... 

One commentator did get it right when he said Amtrak may have purposely exaggerated the impact the track work would cause, just to cover themself, and make it appear that they were handling it well.

Now they are thinking, they are ahead of "schedule", and may even get done earlier than promised.

Another said that the strategy was to have passenger's have "low expectations, so they would not be disappointed"...  ..


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## ehbowen (Jul 15, 2017)

railiner said:


> Another said that the strategy was to have passenger's have "low expectations, so they would not be disappointed"...  ..


Sounds like Amtrak SOP....


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## Green Maned Lion (Jul 15, 2017)

Ever repair something old? The scope of work is often much more than expected. Any sane person builds in time for those unexpected problems, and when they don't occur? Ahead of schedule.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 15, 2017)

In my job I always add padding to my time estimates. Never know what kind of issues I might run into since each project I work on is different.


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## PaTrainFan (Jul 15, 2017)

ehbowen said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Another said that the strategy was to have passenger's have "low expectations, so they would not be disappointed"...  ..
> ...


I always like to say under promise and over deliver. Better that they set lower expectations and exceed them than make unrealistic promises and be accused of failing. Nobody is ever going to be happy in this scenario. I actually have to give Amtrak for having a thick skin through this entire fiasco.


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## City of Miami (Jul 15, 2017)

Lynchburger (176) has been late arrival NYP everyday this first week - average 44 minutes. I'm watching since I may use it in a couple of weeks and need to transfer to GCT for Metronorth to POU.


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2017)

what about staying at NYP and taking 237 to POU if the schedule is ok? MN usually saves some time/money, but not sure how much if you include the hassle of the transfer, and the ticket being one way peak.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 15, 2017)

With the connecting ticket it may actually be cheaper to take Amtrak all the way to Poughkeepsie.

As to the NYP work, I thought the work was overstated all along. For example, LIRR rerouted 20% of its trains away from NYP, but the trains were longer so this capacity difference is minor. In addition, many people are working from home due to the media hype, and many of those who are not are either using alternate stations, using busses, using ferries, driving, or not travelling during peak periods. I am on Amtrak up to NYP right now, and I am not at all worried about the work going on during the next week.


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## railiner (Jul 15, 2017)

If the LIRR can successfully run longer trains....why not do so on a permanent basis to reduce congestion, even after the summer trackwork is concluded?

And perhaps NJT, likewise?

At airports with limited 'slots'....don't they try to operate larger aircraft to take full advantage of their 'slots'?


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## jis (Jul 15, 2017)

NJT trains are at max length possible for tracks 1-6, which is what many of them use. A few trains that are longer have to use the middle platforms, which reduces the options available when something goes wrong.

And what makes you think they have the extra equipment hanging around doing nothing during weekday rush hours? 

The possibility of using larger aircrafts exists only in those airports where gates that can accommodate larger aircrafts are available. Try getting a 380 into Newark International and see what happens


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 15, 2017)

jis said:


> NJT trains are at max length possible for tracks 1-6, which is what many of them use. A few trains that are longer have to use the middle platforms, which reduces the options available when something goes wrong.
> 
> And what makes you think they have the extra equipment hanging around doing nothing during weekday rush hours?


I think he meant reduce the number of trains but redistribute the equipment to the remaining trains.

jb


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## railiner (Jul 15, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > NJT trains are at max length possible for tracks 1-6, which is what many of them use. A few trains that are longer have to use the middle platforms, which reduces the options available when something goes wrong.
> ...


Exactly...thanks for clearing that up...


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## jis (Jul 15, 2017)

railiner said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Not enough platforms available that are long enough is one of three issues in the case of NJT. Don't know enough about LIRR operations. NJT already makes maximum use of longer trains that is possible within the constraints of available equipment and platform and serving6 routes with regular cadence. Some trains are actually shorter than the longest possible due to equipment turn and cadence issues.


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2017)

For a 380 or a 747-8 a wider runway and taxiway is also required (or an FAA waiver) so even if I have a gate that could take one it might still be a no go....but that does not change the validity of your point.


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## railiner (Jul 15, 2017)

Any reason that NJT could not lengthen their NJ platforms? I believe the LIRR has done that extensively....granted, the LIRR does not have to use the 'short' platforms at NYP...


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## railiner (Jul 15, 2017)

PVD said:


> For a 380 or a 747-8 a wider runway and taxiway is also required (or an FAA waiver) so even if I have a gate that could take one it might still be a no go....but that does not change the validity of your point.


The example of super-jumbo's is the extreme case...I was thinking more in line of running an A321 over an A320, or A320 over an A319, etc...just an incremental change that would yield more seats for each valuable takeoff....


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2017)

SW has gone to 737-800 instead of 700, and Jetblue to A321 for exactly that reason in many locations


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## west point (Jul 15, 2017)

The short platforms through out the NEC has been a point of contention for many posters. NYP definitely has some, Wilmington, Baltimore, & even WASH after PRR shortened all the upper platforms by 2 car lengths.

Penn south at NY will have longer platforms but that does not take in present tracks 1 - 4. In our opinion getting longer platforms at stations should be a number 1 priority. Unfortunately that is not as sexy as new trains, higher speeds, stations, CAT, and so on.

Longer trains with platforms that can just have one stop for loading can dramatically improve a line's capacity. If NYPS and all the out lying stations could handle 14 - 16 car trains line capacity would improve markedly. Of course longer trains would mean 1 o2 trains per hour less as standard interval from the end of one train to next train has to be maintained. As well it would take slightly longer to clear the ladder track inbound or outbound. That is one reason Amtrak needs to rebuild "A" interlocking so trains can travel thru the interlocking faster. The temporary speed reductions at NYPS really gummed up the schedules. ( Temp 10 MPH now back to 15 and maybe 20 once work is complete ? )

Unfortunately there are some agencies that have not planned for future longer platforms. VRE is a prime example of that problem as some of their stations already have too short platforms for their sometimes longer trains. Right now VRE cannot operate more trains so once their new daytime layover facility is finished they are going to have major problems with longer trains but not longer platforms.


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## PVD (Jul 15, 2017)

Some of those NYP platforms are pretty skinny and could use a few more entrances/exits also, but that is a different fish to fry


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## kt1i (Jul 19, 2017)

We're thinking of a trip to experience the Empire Service to ALB going out of New York Grand Central station. We would be coming from SPG into NYP. Has Amtrak made any provisions such as a bus shuttle between the two stations or is it up to you to get there?


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## John Bobinyec (Jul 19, 2017)

kt1i said:


> We're thinking of a trip to experience the Empire Service to ALB going out of New York Grand Central station. We would be coming from SPG into NYP. Has Amtrak made any provisions such as a bus shuttle between the two stations or is it up to you to get there?


It's up to you.

jb


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## Hytec (Jul 19, 2017)

Returning this thread to its original title, does anyone have information on how the work is going so far, 9 days (17%) in? I assume the work was broken down into many separate projects. I'm curious how some of the early projects might have performed...on schedule, ahead of schedule, behind schedule? Thanks


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## Acela150 (Jul 19, 2017)

According to Amtrak as of last Friday the project is ahead of schedule.


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## Carolina Special (Jul 19, 2017)

Is that based on how long they actually expect it to take?

Or based on the Scotty from Star Trek schedule, aka sandbagging the estimate to be a miracle worker?


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## jis (Jul 19, 2017)

I suspect that is a rhetorical question?


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## west point (Jul 20, 2017)

Of course you might suddenly have trouble with Tribles ?


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## Agent (Jul 28, 2017)

Another week, another time-lapse video from Amtrak. From the video description:



> ... crews install of 2 of 4 switch points with stock rails on 37 switch, a complex double slip switch which allows for possible directions through one switch. Typical switches allow for 2 possible directions.


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## Agent (Jul 29, 2017)

There's also another update video with Wick Moorman.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 30, 2017)

I think we should start a poll. How long after the completion will it take

A) for the first train to hop the rail?

B) a train to run a stop signal and barge through the brand new switches?

C) for switch failure to occur and paralyze the station?

D) the severe congestion that has disappeared to return and paralyze the station?


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## ehbowen (Jul 30, 2017)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I think we should start a poll. How long after the completion will it take


We don't need a *poll*; we need a *pool*... :giggle:


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## Agent (Aug 4, 2017)

Two more time-lapse videos from Amtrak today.


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## Thirdrail7 (Aug 31, 2017)

The schedules are being restored on Tuesday, 9/5. All in all, I'm actually sorry to see all of the trains return. It was nice to have breathing room and to see the railroads in the area maximizing their facilities and resources. With spare capacity, there was room for error. It was nice to have recovery time.

Now, we'll go back to stuffing trains into a station that is operating at 120% capacity.

It's not too late to straight-rail Swift!  We see who the problem is! I've said it for years and I think the point is proven. Removing the Mid Clowns from the equation really helps the operation!


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 31, 2017)

I suspect that the Lackawanna Coalition would take issue with that. Not that I care or anything.


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## CraigDK (Sep 6, 2017)

There are some nice photos of the work that was done in this article.

http://projects.newsday.com/lirr/lirrs-summer-hell-trackwork-penn-station/


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## frequentflyer (Sep 6, 2017)

CraigDK said:


> There are some nice photos of the work that was done in this article.
> 
> http://projects.newsday.com/lirr/lirrs-summer-hell-trackwork-penn-station/


Why not use concrete tie for track ten. Strange to use wood ties and pour concrete around it. If it floods, wouldn't the wooden tie dry rot?


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## CraigDK (Sep 6, 2017)

frequentflyer said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> > There are some nice photos of the work that was done in this article.
> ...


I wondered about that detail myself. I do not think what they did was anything new however, and I am sure they know how to replace those ties without disturbing the concrete if it becomes necessary. I thought they might have used a direct connection between the rail and the concrete the way it has been done on some recent tunnel and bridge projects, but for whatever reason they didn't.


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## niemi24s (Sep 6, 2017)

At first glance, those ties do look like wooden ones - but are they?


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 6, 2017)

I really wish Amtrak would just keep working there. Now that things are back to "normal," my NJ Transit trains are starting to come into Princeton Junction late again.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 6, 2017)

They are wooden ties. Concrete ties are heavy, expensive and not really maneuverable so working with them inside the confines of Penn Station would have added more time to the project without a real gain. .


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## neroden (Sep 6, 2017)

I'm a bit surprised they didn't go with the maneuverable, waterproof plastic/rubber ties which are being used in Chicago L's subway sections now, specifically because of their resistance to water damage. They're not great for high speeds but that shouldn't be an issue inside Penn Station.


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 15, 2017)

Here comes round two. Wick Moorman presses on!:

Penn Station train changes announced for winter track work

Please allow a few "fair use" quotes:



> Tracks 15, 18, and 19 -- all used by the LIRR -- will be taken out of service in January and will "probably" remain out of service until May as Amtrak plans a "total reconstruction" of the three tracks. They will work on the tracks one at a time.



Additionally:



> Here's a list of changes for Amtrak service from January 4 to May 28:
> - Amtrak is cancelling Northeast Regional Trains 110 from Washington, D.C. (WAS) to New York Penn Station (NYP) and 127 from NYP to WAS
> - Northbound Keystone Train 640 will terminate at Newark Penn Station
> - Southbound Keystone Train 643 will originate at Newark Penn Station
> ...


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## Green Maned Lion (Nov 15, 2017)

More Hoboken trains! Awesome.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 1, 2019)

Keep an eye on the website. A few changes are looming. It looks like Empire service will remain in NYP for the summer although there may be a combination train operating. There may also be a rescheduling and/or alteration of a few trains.


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## Winecliff Station (May 2, 2019)

Thanks for the heads up.... I hope any revised schedule won't force me to take Metro North. Guess I will hold off on buying another 10-trip ticket till I hear something.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 3, 2019)

Winecliff Station said:


> Thanks for the heads up.... I hope any revised schedule won't force me to take Metro North. Guess I will hold off on buying another 10-trip ticket till I hear something.



Click on the link for the basic plan for NJT and LIRR. The Amtrak plan is quoted below:

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loc...ers-Rail-New-York-Penn-Station-509377071.html



> Amtrak announced the latest round of major track repairs at New York Penn Station that will impact NJ Transit and LIRR commuters in what could be reminiscent of 2017's "Summer of Hell" for some travelers, but at least one railroad says not to worry.
> 
> The latest round of work, also believed to be the last phase, will constitute the replacement of two underground interlocking which directs Amtrak, Long Island Rail Road and NJ TRANSIT trains heading east and west from the East River Tunnels. The work is believed that it will have a bigger effect on LIRR, but it will still bring major changes to the direct service of NJ Transit.
> 
> The total cost of the projects is estimated at $30 million. The work on JO Interlocking will occur between June 28, and Sept. 2.



They will also rehab 14 and 15 track. This is bad for JO interlocking since those are two of the four track capable of reaching all of the East River Tunnels in a straight move. You'll likely see LIRR on the low side of NYP. 



> *AMTRAK*
> 
> Amtrak schedule adjustments during the scheduled rail work will include:
> 
> ...




It wouldn't surprise me if the entire, combined Lake Shore rolled into NYP at some point this summer.


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## Acela150 (May 4, 2019)

I mean you gotta do what you gotta do as far as track work. And taking 14 and 15 out of service and refreshing them while extremely disruptive it’s gotta be done. 

Side note. I just learned why my trains from the Shore Line are constantly on track 14. [emoji4][emoji23]


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## Thirdrail7 (May 4, 2019)

I'm sorry to read this may be the last Phase. While a lot of the other projects can be performed with standard 55 hour outages, I liked the full court blitz. The station is old. I think they should keep up the summer blitzes when traffic is down. Even if they just use the time to keep the maintenance up to snuff.


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## Acela150 (May 4, 2019)

I strongly agree with TR here. Part of the reason why NYP fell into such a bad State was small things turned into big things.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 12, 2019)

Judging by the website, the Cardinal will depart NYP at 610am on weekdays during the construction period.


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