# Who is drawn to flying?



## jis (Dec 14, 2021)

Actually there are airfans just like there are railfans, and my impression is that there are many more airfans than there are railfans. I count myself in both groups. I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day round trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too 

So the claim that nobody flies just for the experience is very far removed from facts.


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## TheVig (Dec 14, 2021)

jis said:


> Actually there are airfans just like there are railfans, and my impression is that there are many more airfans than there are railfans. I count myself in both groups. I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day roud trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too
> 
> So the claim that nobody flies just for the experience is very far removed from facts.



Exactly!

When Delta fast tracked their remaining MD80 fleet. Myself and others took final revenue flights on those birds. Not all those birds made it to the desert intact. One would be amazed what you can strip off a plane with minimal tooling that can be brought through security.


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## Willbridge (Dec 14, 2021)

I confess to once choosing a flight in order to experience it. In 1970 I flew Berlin to Hannover and return in a BEA Viscount. It was five minutes slower than the flights using BAC 111's and Super 111's. Being used to the rocket-like blast-off of the jets I thought we were never going to clear the apartment houses at the end of the runway, but of course, we did. Otherwise, flights were to get from A to C. Trains were to see or experience point B along the way.



Note that the flight was at 10,000 feet, so if the weather permitted there was some sightseeing potential.


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## Cal (Dec 14, 2021)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Once my Dad bought a ticket to fly from Boston to Hyannis on Cape Air because they were still operating the DC-3s and he wanted to ride one. But I agree that is pretty unusual.


Recently I was researching flights to get on a 767 or 757 before they’re retired. But the cost seems too much for domestic flying. When I next fly overseas I will 100% be trying to get on a 747 or an a380. All for the experience. 


jis said:


> Actually there are airfans just like there are railfans, and my impression is that there are many more airfans than there are railfans. I count myself in both groups. I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day round trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too
> 
> So the claim that nobody flies just for the experience is very far removed from facts.


indeed. Another thing on my bucket list is to get on an innagural flight of an aircraft (for a specific airline — not the first test flight). I personally call myself an avgeek (aviation geek)


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## frequentflyer (Dec 14, 2021)

jis said:


> Actually there are airfans just like there are railfans, and my impression is that there are many more airfans than there are railfans. I count myself in both groups. I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day round trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too
> 
> So the claim that nobody flies just for the experience is very far removed from facts.



Back in the early 90s one could fly from AUS to DFW, or IAH for $19.00 each way with no fees or taxes. OKC was $58.00 roundtrip back then with advanced reservations. Needless to say, I did and do ALOT of flying, hence my name. Back in the early days of FF programs you could rack up miles real quick and I have been known to do a two hub itinerary pack the miles. I will also take a longer schedule if it includes interesting equipment like said 777 on a domestic route.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 15, 2021)

jis said:


> Actually there are airfans just like there are railfans, and my impression is that there are many more airfans than there are railfans. I count myself in both groups. I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day round trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too
> 
> So the claim that nobody flies just for the experience is very far removed from facts.


Although I have never taken a flight specifically for the equipment etc. I confess to being an "airfan" as well as a railfan, probably going back to my families original flight from London to Toronto on a DC-6 followed by Toronto to Sudbury ON on a DC-3 when we emigrated from the UK to Canada when I was 7 years old. After 4 years in the USAF I went for my private pilot license and got as far as soloing but had to give it up when I decided to go to Grad School. I still enjoy flying even with the TSA business, the cramped seats, and disappearance of food service. Especially if you are lucky to fly on a clear day and get that unique view of the land you are flying over.


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## Tlcooper93 (Dec 15, 2021)

jis said:


> Actually there are airfans just like there are railfans, and my impression is that there are many more airfans than there are railfans. I count myself in both groups. I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day round trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too
> 
> So the claim that nobody flies just for the experience is very far removed from facts.




For a long while, I was a much bigger airfan than rail fan. Only recently have those flip flopped.
All my young life, I wanted to be a pilot or be an aeronautical engineer.
I would go plane spotting with a big camera and still do!


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 15, 2021)

jis said:


> I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day round trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too


I consider myself an aviation fan but first builds can be unappealing as a passenger. Early 788's had enough teething problems that my first several flights were significantly delayed and early 772's were so loud that I felt half-deaf on arrival. Later 777 models improved noise levels substantially but I preferred quieter if older 744's over early model 772's for several years.



TheVig said:


> When Delta fast tracked their remaining MD80 fleet. Myself and others took final revenue flights on those birds. Not all those birds made it to the desert intact. One would be amazed what you can strip off a plane with minimal tooling that can be brought through security.


I think I flew every major MD80 variant (except the B717) on AA. Every weekday morning the departure curfew gave way to the MD80's signature jet blast that signaled the start of the business day. Hard to believe all that noise was coming from aircraft _with_ hush kits installed.



Cal said:


> Recently I was researching flights to get on a 767 or 757 before they’re retired. But the cost seems too much for domestic flying. When I next fly overseas I will 100% be trying to get on a 747 or an a380. All for the experience.


Most of the A380 fleet will be retired but special situations like [email protected] and [email protected] will likely see them in active service for many years to come. What remains of the 747 pax fleet is likely to be retired (744) or converted (748) soon. The A345 is probably gone for good with A346 soon to follow.


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## basketmaker (Dec 15, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think I flew every major MD80 variant (except the B717) on AA. Every weekday morning the departure curfew gave way to the MD-80's signature jet blast that signaled the start of the business day. Hard to believe all that noise was coming from aircraft _with_ hush kits installed.


 Love the DC9, MD80, 717 and always sit in the next to the last row window. One of the few planes I fall right to sleep on. Now externally the old BAC111 was the loudest and early Lear Jets were noisy too.


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## Cal (Dec 15, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Most of the A380 fleet will be retired but special situations like [email protected] and [email protected] will likely see them in active service for many years to come. What remains of the 747 pax fleet is likely to be retired (744) or converted (748) soon. The A345 is probably gone for good with A346 soon to follow.


Indeed, which is why I am itching to get on one. 

A340s, they aren't my favorite but if there's a convenient chance to get on one I'll take it.


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## jiml (Dec 15, 2021)

jis said:


> Actually there are airfans just like there are railfans, and my impression is that there are many more airfans than there are railfans. I count myself in both groups. I have been known to run off on an otherwise pointless single day round trip by air from Newark to Houston and back, to be one of the first to experience the 787 for example. That flight seemed to have more airfans than real passengers. I did a round trip to London two days after the introduction of the 777 too
> 
> So the claim that nobody flies just for the experience is very far removed from facts.


You nailed this one, spoken as someone who flew the last AA MD-80 out of YYZ and incorporated the "Farewell to the F-100" on a flight from ATL to ORD. The pancakes in F were amazing that day BTW.


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## jiml (Dec 15, 2021)

Cal said:


> Recently I was researching flights to get on a 767 or 757 before they’re retired. But the cost seems too much for domestic flying. When I next fly overseas I will 100% be trying to get on a 747 or an a380. All for the experience.


You'll struggle to find too many 757's in the NA market and even 767's are becoming rare. Heck, unless you're really lucky or going to Australia or the Middle East, the last two may be a problem sooner than you think.


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## jiml (Dec 15, 2021)

Cal said:


> Indeed, which is why I am itching to get on one.
> 
> A340s, they aren't my favorite but if there's a convenient chance to get on one I'll take it.


The A340 is an underrated airplane, sacrificed on the altar of lower costs. I believe Lufthansa and Swiss still have a few. Fly them while you can.


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## Cal (Dec 15, 2021)

jiml said:


> You'll struggle to find too many 757's in the NA market and even 767's are becoming rare. Heck, unless you're really lucky or going to Australia or the Middle East, the last two may be a problem sooner than you think.


Actually with some test bookings 757's and 767's are quite easy to get on in NA, many of them are flying out of my two local airports (LAX and SNA). The last two... yeah.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 15, 2021)

Cal said:


> Indeed, which is why I am itching to get on one. A340s, they aren't my favorite but if there's a convenient chance to get on one I'll take it.


I hoped to fly the VS A346 from LAX after a new Upper Class cabin was fitted. Next time I checked the A346 fleet had been relegated to NYC. Despite a substantial reduction in total travel time I thought it might work with a visit to the TWA hotel at JFK. I read some bad reviews and never pulled the trigger before the pandemic hit. Suddenly four-engine aircraft were all heading to the nearest desert and it seemed like my remaining options had already expired. At this point I believe LH is the only operator on record stating that the A346 is returning (only for a single season while they await more deliveries).



jiml said:


> The A340 is an underrated airplane, sacrificed on the altar of lower costs. I believe Lufthansa and Swiss still have a few. Fly them while you can.


I can understand why the A340 pax fleet is being retired from a financial and operational perspective but hopefully I can still bank a ride before it's gone forever...unlike the B741, L1011, DC10, MD11, and Concorde.


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## jis (Dec 16, 2021)

Moderator's Notes: The posts above were moved here from their original location in the "slow rail travel" thread at 






Who is drawn to slow train travel?


I am working on a project about slow train travel for a graduate-level Environmental Psychology class, and in part of the project, I am making the case that because long-distance Amtrak is slow and inconvenient, it does not appeal to average travelers and instead draws a disparate cross section...




www.amtraktrains.com





Please feel free to carry on with the experential flying topic here...


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## AmtrakBlue (Dec 16, 2021)

Many, many, many years ago I would think about doing an around the country trip just going from airport to airport as I love take offs and landings. My flights would be no more than 2 hours each . I never did it, but I did plan at least one trip where I purposely incorporated two connections. PHL-MSP-SLC-SJC


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 16, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Many, many, many years ago I would think about doing an around the country trip just going from airport to airport as I love take offs and landings. My flights would be no more than 2 hours each . I never did it, but I did plan at least one trip where I purposely incorporated two connections. PHL-MSP-SLC-SJC


Did you ever consider a job similar to a training instructor, implementation specialist, or on-site consultant? It would have been easy to bank hundreds of takeoffs and landings, although many of your destinations would likely range from boring to bad. I saw the following video a while back and it seems a little like what you're describing. Although I'm nowhere near as enthusiastic about flying as this guy is I do prefer to break up longer trips into shorter segments.


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## Maglev (Dec 16, 2021)

I like flying first class. I am not very fond of airports or flying in coach.

I like to see what's flying overhead and right now, there's a Singapore Airlines A350 flying from Vancouver to Seattle. We're sometimes on the route for East Asia to America flights--I've seen Haneda to Chicago, Singapore to JFK, and Manila to Toronto fly right overhead. Yesterday, there was an Emirates A380 Dubai to Los Angeles followed by Lufthansa 747 Frankfurt to San Francisco. 

Credit to FlightAware - Flight Tracker / Flight Status.


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## Cal (Dec 16, 2021)

I don’t fly all that much so it’s kind of like a treat, and I mostly fly international. If I flew more I might have different opinions


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## TaseMeBro (Dec 20, 2021)

I love travel in general, and that tends to manifest itself in a love of flying. Even last year, amid the pandemic, I cleared a bit over 120 flight segments (work essential, before anyone gets too excited).

I'm not as much of an "avgeek" as some - I have done a couple of inaugural flights for the experience, and flying on a new acft type for the first time is interesting, but I can't say I've travelled just to check out a particular plane.

I've definitely "flown for the sake of flying" - day trips with a nominal excuse of checking out a store or restaurant.

I do enjoy comparing carriers, seeing new cities, etc. I can't say I've had any domestic experiences in the past few years that have stood out, but some of the international carriers are still innovating and improving their J and F cabins.


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## me_little_me (Dec 20, 2021)

I lost my interest in flying the first time I tried it -and I fell straight down to the floor. Luckily I wasn't too high.

In fact, 55 years ago, I liked to fly and when the 747s came out with their upstairs piano lounge, I upgraded a trip from Chicago to NYC on Northwest Orient Airlines. The plane flew into Chicago from Asia so I was on it only for a few hours. Never flew 747 First Class after that because I couldn't afford doing it more than once. Then they replaced the lounge with more seats so the opportunity was lost anyway. But it was a thrill. Once I started traveling for business, I quickly lost interest with the crowding and delays. However, although working in El Paso, it never occurred to me to take the train on business to Tucson or Phoenix. Probably because the company would never have found a way to pay for such an odd way to travel. Generally, I drove to those cities but flew to Denver and Bay area and anywhere else I had to go.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 21, 2021)

I used to like flying, and, in fact, that was how I traveled from home to college several times a year each year. Only in my senior year, when I had a girlfriend who needed help (or actually company) driving her car to school did I start driving. But we would still sometimes fly east during term breaks. I found coach service pre-2001 to be perfectly adequate, though, of course the quality of service started declining from the moment airline deregulation started in the early 1980s. 

I also had a couple of semi--scary flights in the 1980s involving turbulence or minor (so they said) mechanical mishaps that started making me a white-knuckle flier. It also didn't help that time I had a seatmate who was a Navy pilot who made all sorts of faces as our aging TWA 727 taxied, took off, and jinked around as it was climbing trying to avoid the thunderstorm cells. All he said after we reached cruising altitude was "Needs new brakes. Needs new flaps." We did make it into St. Louis without any mishaps, but I was a bit nervous. Another time, I flew United into DIA a couple of weeks after it opened, and the pilot misjudged the approach (first time he'd ever landed there), had to abort the landing and flew us around for another try. I experienced an actual "touch and go" landing at BWI on a British Airways L1011 on a flight back from London. It was scattered thunderstorms, but the pilot was landing on visual, and just as he touched the ground, the skies opened up and he couldn't see down the runway (at least that's what they told us), so we immediately blasted off, circled around and landed once the rain moved off the runway. Twice I was on American Airlines, flying to DFW when the pilot aborted the takeoff halfway down the runway because "a warning light came on." We taxied back to the terminal and sat around while the mechanics went over the plane, and then we went on our way. I even made my connections at DFW both times. Then there was the 2 AM departure from Tel Aviv on El Al. While we were boarding, we saw that the door was pretty much completely disassembled, and mechanics were swarming all over it. There's a lot of complex mechanisms inside an airplane door. 

Anyway, the result is that I fly (can't dispute the safety statistics), but the minute I approach the airport in the car or taxi, I start tensing up, and I don't relax until the landing of my last flight segment. The minute the pane starts rolling down the runway, I start relaxing. This is irrational, of course, as we're still going 100+ mph and a lot of stuff could still go wrong. The cramped seating, the crowds, the TSA lines and general understaffing of service personnel contribute to making the experience less than pleasant. Because of this, for trips 500 miles or less, I'll drive or take the train (if possible) rather than fly. Otherwise, I just grit my teeth and endure the pain of air travel, as the unpleasantness is usually limited to about 8 hours, including time in the airport. I do sometimes take the train for overnight trips, but I'm doing that partly because I just enjoy the experience of riding a train overnight.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 22, 2021)

In all the times I have flown I can only remember 2 times where there were incidents. The first was fairly minor, a baggage door was not properly secured and after takeoff we circled and landed, door was secured and we took off again.

The second one was more "interesting". We were returning from a cruise out of Houston (IAH) United 1578 B737-800. Flight took off as normal but enroute it was reported there were snowstorms at Boston. This was the "snowmaggedon" year in New England, 2015. We circled for a while over Providence while they decided whether they could continue to Boston or divert to BDL. In the end they got word the runway had been cleared enough at Boston and we could attempt to land. The landing was pretty dicey given the state of the runway but I give credit to the crew that got us on the ground safely. We stayed over at the airport Hilton and I remember the next day getting or car out at remote parking me still dressed in my cruising clothes and my car covered in feet of snow; fortunately 2 guys with shovels from Massport came over and dug us out.

I recall we were sitting next to a young lady from Colombia to do some research at one of the Boston universities and this was her introduction to the USA, probably the first time she had seen snow


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## UserNameRequired (Dec 23, 2021)

I have been on one commercial flight with a maintenance problem in the air. Bombardier CRJ. I guess the flight before the crew squawked one of the electric hydraulic pumps with an overheat warning. I guess the Minimum Equipment List for them allowed them to use the aircraft the next day without maintenance fixing the problem. On takeoff, guess what, the backup electric pump got the overheat warning too. If I remember correctly, the pilot dropped the landing gear back open on climb out to try to cool the pumps and the over heat warning went off. Then halfway to destination in cruise the over heat went off again and we diverted to not our destination and the airport rolled their resources to escort us to the gate. The CRJ has 3 separate flight control hydraulic systems, the first two have a mechanical pump (one on each turbine) with electric backup, they kept working fine. The third was the one with two electric pumps, that was the one that had the problem. You could tell while we were diverting the pilot had authority over the flight control surfaces from the crisp turns she was executing so there was no perception of danger, other than hoping the hydraulics wouldn’t get worse and quit, or a fire I suppose. This info came from a conversation with the copilot after landing. 

The replacement aircraft they got us many hours later ended up having the toilet clean out hatch door thing not close properly and we sat on board for another hour or two while that was sorted out.

Most all other commercial flights I have been uneventful.


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## jis (Dec 23, 2021)

The most dramatic moment I have had in 56 years of flying was when the wing of the aircraft was struck by lightning as we were climbing out of Bombay Santa Cruz (now Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj International) Airport in the middle of Monsoon back in 1966. It was a very bright flash and loud bang, and then an announcement by the Captain as to what happened. We just continued on to our destination Delhi Palam (now Indira Gandhi International) Airport. The aircraft was a 707 (Dhaulagiri), the airline was Air India then the first all jet airline in Asia. JRD Tata was still Chairman, though it had been nationalized.

The aircraft was manufactured in 1962, a -437 meaning that it had Rolls-Royce engines. I found a photo on airliners.net via pintrest which is linked below:



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/15/a2/ed15a26c6e161bff7adb6643e7842e86.jpg


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## west point (Dec 23, 2021)

JIS those bangs can be very loud. Did you notice the static discharge antenna looking wicks on the trailing edge of the wings? Lightning usually does very little damage to an airplane except the radar electronics and radar dome. Sometimes at night when flying thru snow that did not see static will start to flow in front of the airplane several hundred feet. You duck under the glare shield so if it discharges you will not be temporary blinded.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 24, 2021)

Most of the time I'm fine with bumpy flights and rough landings. Even when people are crying or praying I'm usually just listening to music or watching the clouds, but there have been a few flights that spooked me.

1. Exceptional Engine Sounds - It's not uncommon for aircraft engines to sound off or to vibrate more than usual but one flight was so loud with so much vibration you could not even hear the PA announcements. This was really unusual for a high bypass turbofan in my experience and I was uncomfortable for most of the flight. (WN B737).

2. Zero Visibility Landing - I've been through some rough landings but one had so much rain you could not see _anything_ outside the window and we could feel the aircraft hydroplaning on the runway. I have never had a landing like that before or since and I feel the pilot made a mistake by landing in those conditions. (WN B737)

3. Unexplained Reaction - Nothing was rough or wrong with the last flight but for some reason I had a sudden unexplained feeling of acrophobia and claustrophobia as I left the lavatory and returned to my seat. For about fifteen minutes I felt extremely uneasy but then the feeling seemed to vanish almost as suddenly as it appeared. If that is what it feels like to be afraid of flying then I can see why some people avoid it like the plague. (AA MD80)



TaseMeBro said:


> I'm not as much of an "avgeek" as some - I have done a couple of inaugural flights for the experience, and flying on a new acft type for the first time is interesting, but I can't say I've travelled just to check out a particular plane.


Exploring new aircraft, airlines, and airports is most of the attraction for me. The act of flying itself lost most of its appeal many years ago. For me the ideal business trip is a same day return with no overnight while the ideal tourist trip is falling asleep shortly after the main service and not waking up again until landing. My longest flight was 16:30 and I simply cannot comprehend how people can enjoy ultra-long-haul flights no matter the cabin or service.



jis said:


> It was a very bright flash and loud bang, and then an announcement by the Captain as to what happened. We just continued on to our destination Delhi Palam (now Indira Gandhi International) Airport.


Only had one lightening strike and remember every window getting crazy bright followed by all the lights going out and the engines changing pitch. After a few long seconds the lights came back on and the flight continued landing.


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## jiml (Dec 24, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Most of the time I'm fine with bumpy flights and rough landings. Even when people are crying or praying I'm usually just listening to music or watching the clouds, but there have been a few flights that spooked me.
> 
> 1. Exceptional Engine Sounds - It's not uncommon for aircraft engines to sound off or to vibrate more than usual but one flight was so loud with so much vibration you could not even hear the PA announcements. This was really unusual for a high bypass turbofan in my experience and I was uncomfortable for most of the flight. (WN B737).
> 
> ...


Those are perfect and not limited to one airline or aircraft. I'd add two to your list:
4. Flights where the captain announces that the flight attendants will remain seated and belted for the entire flight. That never bodes well. (several AA RJ flights)

5. Sudden drops in altitude, especially those that result in dropping air masks, things breaking in the galley or an FA injury. Somewhat disconcerting even for an experienced flyer. Add over water for additional discomfort.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 24, 2021)

jis said:


> The aircraft was manufactured in 1962, a -437 meaning that it had Rolls-Royce engines. I found a photo on airliners.net via pintrest which is linked below:
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ed/15/a2/ed15a26c6e161bff7adb6643e7842e86.jpg



I love the archer logo on the tail!


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## jis (Dec 24, 2021)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> I love the archer logo on the tail!


That is supposedly Centaur.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Dec 24, 2021)

jis said:


> That is supposedly Centaur.


Ah, yes, I can see that...


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## neroden (Dec 25, 2021)

I liked flying in the brief window after smoking on planes was banned and before insane TSA harassment became the norm. The late 90s, in other words.

My favorite thing about flying -- the view from overhead -- is quite adequately satisfied by Google Maps now. So I do not miss flying.


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## jis (Dec 25, 2021)

neroden said:


> I liked flying in the brief window after smoking on planes was banned and before insane TSA harassment became the norm. The late 90s, in other words.
> 
> My favorite thing about flying -- the view from overhead -- is quite adequately satisfied by Google Maps now. So I do not miss flying.


It would be even more realistically realized using the 3D mode of flightradar24, for a specific chosen flight on a particular day even


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## Tlcooper93 (Dec 25, 2021)

There is something really exciting about crazy maneuvers, but of course, being able to look straight out ahead can really help with sickness/nervousness.
Most of the time, people overreact to whatever may be happening on any given flight. I get it. It can be scary. That said, a real emergency situation would be far more obvious that anything disconcerting that I've witnessed.

I was flying through some pretty rough weather yesterday.
We were landing a Pilatus PC-12 at Santa Rosa KSTS and we had some trouble intercepting the ILS without blowing altitude, and had to do some serious G force stuff to quickly adhere to ATC instructions.


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## basketmaker (Dec 26, 2021)

jiml said:


> The A340 is an underrated airplane, sacrificed on the altar of lower costs. I believe Lufthansa and Swiss still have a few. Fly them while you can.


Lufthansa flies a 340 daily between Frankfurt and Denver.


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## basketmaker (Dec 26, 2021)

Put me on a DC-3 and I'm happy as could be.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 26, 2021)

neroden said:


> I liked flying in the brief window after smoking on planes was banned and before insane TSA harassment became the norm. The late 90s, in other words.


It's hard to believe how good we had it in the late 1990's these days. Parking thirty minutes ahead of departure before clearing security and boarding the aircraft with a simple drivers license. Even with Clear and PreCheck you simply cannot replicate that experience today. Maybe some day.


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## jiml (Dec 26, 2021)

basketmaker said:


> Lufthansa flies a 340 daily between Frankfurt and Denver.


There's a city pair I would never have guessed.


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## Tlcooper93 (Dec 26, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's hard to believe how good we had it in the late 1990's these days. Parking thirty minutes ahead of departure before clearing security and boarding the aircraft with a simple drivers license. Even with Clear and PreCheck you simply cannot replicate that experience today. Maybe some day.


Flying today is perhaps the most unattractive travel experience, especially with connection to regional jets. I can't tell you how much I hate regional jets. The whole point of flying is a one and done quick trip, but all this connection business really doesn't make things attractive. Distances under 1000 NM are better on the train for sure. 
I really don't like to to do it at all unless I can manage to upgrade cheaply, which never happens.


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## basketmaker (Dec 26, 2021)

Grew up in aviation and airplanes. 45+ years in the industry. Hate commercial flying now. Put me in a DC-3 or even a Cessna 172 and I'll go anywhere.


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## neroden (Dec 27, 2021)

In truth, though I swore off US flights, when Harbour Air in BC introduces its electric seaplanes, I am going to be taking a fan trip. I am a fan of electric transportation.


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## ehbowen (Dec 27, 2021)

Do I like flying? Only if I can have one of the two front seats...

In the late '90s I was employed (as an HVAC mechanic) at Hobby Airport in Houston, back when Fletcher Aviation still was running their flight school off the south ramp. I had toyed with the idea of taking lessons all my life, and now I finally took the plunge. I couldn't afford a "total immersion" experience, so instead I went part 61, one bite at a time...get a paycheck, take a lesson. Took me a full year.

But I didn't want the plain vanilla experience (i.e., Grumman American Tiger/Cheetah); I wanted to know what an airplane could do. At the time Cheetah rentals were going for $58, wet; just before I started they took their little-used aerobatic Super Decathlon and marked it down from $80/hr to $65/hr. I could afford a $7 premium. So I took my primary flight training in a taildragger. I think my instructor (Bob McDaniel, Vietnam Wild Weasel vet) was trying to scare me off (on my first lesson he had me fly a split-S starting from 3200 feet), but I took to it like a duck to water. I even learned to fly under the hood on needle, ball, and airspeed; was able to pass my private checkride in a no-gyro airplane. My last checkride prep lesson was spins and recovery, under the hood, at night.

Sadly, a year after I passed (and was working on my commercial/instrument), the doctor put me on medication which caused me to lose my medical.


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## Deni (Dec 27, 2021)

jis said:


> The aircraft was a 707 (Dhaulagiri), the airline was Air India then the first all jet airline in Asia. JRD Tata was still Chairman, though it had been nationalized.


They just sold Air India back to the Tata family earlier this year (or last year) right?


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## Deni (Dec 27, 2021)

jiml said:


> The A340 is an underrated airplane, sacrificed on the altar of lower costs. I believe Lufthansa and Swiss still have a few. Fly them while you can.


One of my favorite planes to fly in recent years was Lufthansa's A340-600 that they flew on the ORD-MUC route. They have a layout that has a group of five bathrooms downstairs surrounding a small room (and the access to the crew quarters seems to be down there too. It is a great space for stretching your legs and they even kept a counter stocked with glasses of juice and water down there. The bathrooms are also very roomy. I don't know if any other airlines have that same set-up.


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## Deni (Dec 27, 2021)

Cal said:


> Recently I was researching flights to get on a 767 or 757 before they’re retired. But the cost seems too much for domestic flying. When I next fly overseas I will 100% be trying to get on a 747 or an a380. All for the experience.


While doing some preliminary planning for a potential trip to Germany this summer I noticed that Lufthansa is using a 747-800 for one of their ORD-FRA flights.


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## Palmland (Dec 27, 2021)

As an infrequent air traveler since retiring, I’m always curious about the aircraft I’m on. Guess it goes back to my first flight as a kid on a DC-3 and then later as a frequent business traveler on Alleghany puddle jumpers or Eastern in it’s dying days then Piedmont/USAir.

Still remember blasting back from the gates in reverse at ATL on Eastern’s aging DC-9’s usually with smoke and occasional backfire. Reminded me of Alcos! I guess that was cheaper than using the tow to push us back.

In the days of airline timetables I would always be interested in the type of aircraft being used. Is there an easy way to do that today? Since our move to Florida I often check out Flightradar24 to check out flights overhead as there’s lots of air traffic.


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## basketmaker (Dec 27, 2021)

neroden said:


> In truth, though I swore off US flights, when Harbour Air in BC introduces its electric seaplanes, I am going to be taking a fan trip. I am a fan of electric transportation.


I know Cape Air is supposed to be the Eviation Alice twin-motored fully electric 9-pax aircraft launch customer in the near future. They've ordered 90 of them. Weird looking airplane! Sorry I'll stick with the tried and true Cessna 402!


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## jis (Dec 27, 2021)

Deni said:


> While doing some preliminary planning for a potential trip to Germany this summer I noticed that Lufthansa is using a 747-800 for one of their ORD-FRA flights.


They have flown a 747-8 on that route for quite a while now. It is not something that started recently. I remember flying it some five or so years back when I flew back from Delhi on an A380 to Frabkfurt and then a 748 to Chicago. Specifically booked that slightly roundabout route to Orlando to catch the 748. Ironically now LH flies Frankfurt - Delhi and Frankfurt - Mumbai using 748s.


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## basketmaker (Dec 27, 2021)

Palmland said:


> As an infrequent air traveler since retiring, I’m always curious about the aircraft I’m on. Guess it goes back to my first flight as a kid on a DC-3 and then later as a frequent business traveler on Alleghany puddle jumpers or Eastern in it’s dying days then Piedmont/USAir.
> 
> Still remember blasting back from the gates in reverse at ATL on Eastern’s aging DC-9’s usually with smoke and occasional backfire. Reminded me of Alcos! I guess that was cheaper than using the tow to push us back.
> 
> In the days of airline timetables I would always be interested in the type of aircraft being used. Is there an easy way to do that today? Since our move to Florida I often check out Flightradar24 to check out flights overhead as there’s lots of air traffic.


Funny you mentioned EA backing out of the gate at ATL. I was transferring from MIA to BOS at ATL the first time I saw it - freaked me out. I actually stood up and moved back away from windows. Then shortly after seeing that I had a Beech 99 captain for Executive Airlines that I worked for that loved to back into his parking spot on the ramp at MIA. Made for a quick departure. He also enjoyed doing "hot starts" on the B-99s at night. I could see him grinning from ear-to-ear so I knew what was coming. He'd load the engine with fuel and then throw the igniter. Huge flame would shoot down the side of the aircraft for a second. Then all you would see is big wide eyes opened in terror in every window.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 27, 2021)

One of my favorite memories is when I was in college at Lehigh University in Bethlehem PA and used to fly back and forth to see my parents near Boston. I would get a ride over to ABE airport where Allegheny Airlines flew Convair 580 twin engine turboprops to Boston with a stop at New Haven CT. At that time Allegheny had a deal where you could fly for 1/3 off if you were a student, a reserved seat not standby. I remember that landing and takeoff at HVN was tricky with the hill at the end of the runway. They eventually changed the intermediate stop to Trenton. The landing in Boston was always cool especially if they came in on runway 31-13 from the southeast and flew right over our neighborhood. I later got interested in the train, then got my first car so didn't fly as often in the later years. 

Another thing I remember about the Convairs is they had no APU on board so they had to plug into a ground APU which impressively sounded like a jet engine when they started it up. 

I got acquainted with the Convairs again in the early 70s stationed in Clovis NM. Texas International airlines had their Dallas - Albuquerque "milk run" stopping at Witchita Falls, Midland, Odessa, and Clovis before continuing to ABQ. They used Convair 600s for the twice daily flight basically the same as the 580 except Rolls Royce engines. Clovis Airport (CVN) had no tower so the crew would call into the age t on the ground, if the clouds were clear of the grain elevators near the field then there was enough ceiling to land . Those were the days.


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## Deni (Dec 27, 2021)

jis said:


> They have flown a 747-8 on that route for quite a while now. It is not something that started recently. I remember flying it some five or so years back when I flew back from Delhi on an A380 to Frabkfurt and then a 748 to Chicago. Specifically booked that slightly roundabout route to Orlando to catch the 748. Ironically now LH flies Frankfurt - Delhi and Frankfurt - Mumbai using 748s.


To clarify, I didn't say it was something that started recently (since I flew it a few years ago I'm well aware of LH's 747 on the ORD-FRA route), just pointing out it was a route I knew about that still ran a 747 on it out of ORD, which has lost several 747 flights in recent years, like KLM's ORD-AMS that seems to run 787s all the time.


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## Siegmund (Dec 28, 2021)

Like ehbowen, I only enjoy flying if I am in the front seat (which I was a lot, in small planes, 2012-2016, but haven't been more recently for a variety of reasons.)

The last time I enjoyed commercial flying was in early 2002. The first few months after 9/11 were lovely, with people paying attention to each other, not too much crowding, and airlines giving great service to lure nervous fliers back, though the walk-up convenience of 1999-2001 was gone and has never returned. (Right before 9/11, Alaska Airlines was promoting "no need to come early if you don't have checked baggage", and for Anchorage-Fairbanks flights, it was very possible to do actual driveway-to-driveway trips in under 2 hours: drive across town, get to the airport 20 minutes before takeoff, be in the air for ~45 minutes, hop into a friend's car in the other town.)

I used to enjoy the novelty of flying and find it merely noisy and mildly uncomfortable, when I was young and 9/11 hadn't happened yet. Now it seems to be more miserable every time I go. I have had to fly a few times per year for work, but I haven't flown commercial for pleasure since 2010, and have no plans to ever do so again (though I am considering making an exception to go to Iceland for the 2026 solar eclipse.)


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## MARC Rider (Dec 28, 2021)

Siegmund said:


> The first few months after 9/11 were lovely, with people paying attention to each other, not too much crowding, and airlines giving great service to lure nervous fliers back,


Uh, I had the occasion to fly in October 2001, and my experience was just the opposite. Well, maybe most people were trying to be friendly under the stressful conditions, but both my flights were sold out. And lines to the max that stretched out the airport and seemingly into downtown. No curbside check-in, so we had two long lines, one to check baggage (and we had the misfortune to be right behind two hunters who were checking their guns, talk about the extra red tape!) All the Maryland National Guard soldiers hanging around with automatic weapons didn't add to a relaxed experience, either. After that long line, we had to deal with the security line. This was before TSA, but the whole thing was very intrusive and not very well organized, so the lines didn't move very fact. At least they didn't make us take off our shoes, though. Then we were stuck in something like row 30 or whatever jammed in near the galley and the restrooms. But they did serve meals on our 6 hour BWI-SFO flight. On the way back, we were in a big long line at SFO that wasn't moving for a long time. People started muttering, and then some tried to cut in front of other people until a functionary from the airline threatened to have people arrested for complaining (both about the people cutting in line and the fact the line wasn't moving.) Then at the podium, we found there was a problem with our reservation (that wasn't a problem) and they wanted to bump my wife on to a later flight. (It's probably because we made 2 reservations because my daughter and I flew out a day earlier than my wife.) We got that taken are of, and then the rest of the flight was OK.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 28, 2021)

Siegmund said:


> The first few months after 9/11 were lovely, with people paying attention to each other, not too much crowding, and airlines giving great service to lure nervous fliers back, though the walk-up convenience of 1999-2001 was gone and has never returned.





MARC Rider said:


> Uh, I had the occasion to fly in October 2001, and my experience was just the opposite.


I remember thin nerves and very suspicious staff, long slow lines at gates and other check points, routine delays for repeated scanning, with aggressive questioning and strip searching amongst a background of fatigues and automatic weaponry. It looked and felt like passing through a war zone to me.


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## jis (Dec 28, 2021)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I remember thin nerves and very suspicious staff, long slow lines at gates and other check points, routine delays for repeated scanning, with aggressive questioning and strip searching amongst a background of fatigues and automatic weaponry. It looked and felt like passing through a war zone to me.


I flew five days after 9/11 VS flight JFK - LHR. It was a 747 with about a dozen passengers. I have never been through a security and search procedure more intrusive and time consuming than on the one. But at least all of us were moved up front irrespective of what class we were ticketed for. So there was that.

The next leg of my journey LHR - CCU on BA 777 was a full flight and pretty close to what was normal back then. It was like we had transitioned to a pre 9/11 world in transiting through LHR! In spite of being full it was a very pleasant flight in Y+.


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## NEPATrainTraveler (Dec 28, 2021)

I'm not a avgeek, but I guess you could say I enjoy flying. There are things I don't enjoy though like having to arrive 2 hours early, going through security and having to pay for checked baggage (on most airlines anyway). Still, the nicest thing about flying is how much time you save. Being able to go from Chicago to Northeast PA in the same day was amazing. I do see myself flying more, especially in situations where Amtrak isn't feasible/time is limited.


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## Cal (Dec 28, 2021)

Truthfully the few times I’ve flown domestic I haven’t enjoyed it, but I’ve always enjoyed international and overseas flying. Perhaps the excitement of going to a new place or a place I’m not usually in makes the experience better.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Dec 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> Truthfully the few times I’ve flown domestic I haven’t enjoyed it, but I’ve always enjoyed international and overseas flying. Perhaps the excitement of going to a new place or a place I’m not usually in makes the experience better.


Yes, not only the excitement of going to a new place, but it seems to get treated a little better on an international flight even in economy. 
Our last international flight was October 2015 when my wife and younger son flew BOS - KEF for a few days in Iceland to see the Aurora Borealis. Generally a good flight, although the Keflavik airport was somewhat underwhelming, being under construction at the time. They also had a strange policy of all their return flights to destinations in the US leaving about the same time resulting in extreme overcrowding in the international departure area. But Iceland was a lot of fun and a fascinating place to see, we rented a car and drove around the South coast of the island. Oh and we did get a great Aurora show on the last evening we were there.


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## jis (Dec 30, 2021)

Cal said:


> Truthfully the few times I’ve flown domestic I haven’t enjoyed it, but I’ve always enjoyed international and overseas flying. Perhaps the excitement of going to a new place or a place I’m not usually in makes the experience better.


The domestic legs that I enjoy the most have always been on an upgrade to FC where the equipment is an overseas aircraft equipped with lie flats. With a little bit of care one can land those on some major international carriers specially between major hubs. In my case I quite often manage to snag those on the MCO -EWR leg. @Steve4031 got an international 787 on the SFO - ORD leg.and enjoyed the real wider Y+ seats the other day on his return to Chicago from San Francisco as a result of the disrupted #6.


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## Tlcooper93 (Dec 30, 2021)

jis said:


> The domestic legs that I enjoy the most have always been on an upgrade to FC where the equipment is an overseas aircraft equipped with lie flats. With a little bit of care one can land those on some major international carriers specially between major hubs. In my case I quite often manage to snag those on the MCO -EWR leg. @Steve4031 got an international 787 on the SFO - ORD leg.and enjoyed the real wider Y+ seats the other day on his return to Chicago from San Francisco as a result of the disrupted #6.


Oftentimes I find myself flying SFO-BOS in late December.
If I am not flying privately, I always look to try to score an upgrade. United tends to use a 777 for the added demand, and they are equipped with lie-flat seats.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 30, 2021)

Away from the coasts domestic flights are barebones affairs. There are no plated meals, lie-flat seats, or sleeping pods anywhere on the aircraft. Where I live domestic flights feature regional jet sized seating and lavatories even on mainline aircraft. On the other hand my longest domestic flights typically last four hours or less whereas a bad intercontinental flight can last fourteen hours or more so pick your poison I guess.


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## Steve4031 (Dec 30, 2021)

I’ve always enjoy any type of travel. What I enjoy about air travel is that it opens up new places to travel to and ride trains. 

I enjoy looking out the window during take off and landing. And if I’m flying over something new I’m curious. I enjoyed flying over the North Pole. And it was interesting flying over Siberia. 

I want to fly around the world some day.


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