# WHAT AMTRAK REALLY NEEDS



## BuzzKillington (Jun 18, 2009)

If Amtrak really wants to gain ridership, they should become a type of hybrid transportation between an airplane and a cruise ship. The more comfortable people feel on the train, the more they will be willing to put up with slow trains and delays. People are usually taking the train to get to a specific destination, but they are really in no hurry of getting there or they would be flying. Amtrak needs the following:

1. Wi-fi on all of their trains: This is a must and should be implemented immediately. More and more people are carrying their laptops wherever they go and this is one huge advantage they could have over the airlines.

2. TV's at every seat on LD trains ala Jetblue Airlines: Yeah it will cost some money to implement but people will complain much less about trains being stopped for an hour in the middle of a cornfield if they are busy watching American Idol at the time. Sleeper cars could have 12-16 inch flat screens. If you can have TV's on airplanes and ships, you can definitely have them on trains.

3. Lounge car with bar seating and televisions: Big sporting events could be played in the evening as well as news programs and talk shows during the day. People could get together with their friends or meet strangers on a train over a beer while watching the game on TV. World Series/Superbowl/Playoff games are important to people.

4. Games available in the lounge car. This is an easy one. Get a few games of Scrabble, Trivial Pursuit and Uno and people will be entertained for hours while still watching the scenery go by. Maybe a couple of organized games of Bingo for the elderly? Or friendly game tournaments organized among passengers with maybe small prizes awarded.

5. Movies shown in the bottom half of the lounge car for ALL passengers. These could be movies very newly released to DVD or, if possible, movies showing in theaters. A small charge could be put on these tickets.

6. Other activities such as wine tasting on all trains, at least for first class passengers. These activities could make the journey a little more interesting since people riding the long distance trains might not be railfans or scenery people but maybe people afraid to fly or close to a train station.

These things could make riding the rails more of an experience than a means to get somewhere. It may go a long way toward taking people off trains and buses and getting them to the rails.


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## haolerider (Jun 18, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> If Amtrak really wants to gain ridership, they should become a type of hybrid transportation between an airplane and a cruise ship. The more comfortable people feel on the train, the more they will be willing to put up with slow trains and delays. People are usually taking the train to get to a specific destination, but they are really in no hurry of getting there or they would be flying. Amtrak needs the following:
> 1. Wi-fi on all of their trains: This is a must and should be implemented immediately. More and more people are carrying their laptops wherever they go and this is one huge advantage they could have over the airlines.
> 
> 2. TV's at every seat on LD trains ala Jetblue Airlines: Yeah it will cost some money to implement but people will complain much less about trains being stopped for an hour in the middle of a cornfield if they are busy watching American Idol at the time. Sleeper cars could have 12-16 inch flat screens. If you can have TV's on airplanes and ships, you can definitely have them on trains.
> ...


While these all seem to be great ideas, there is the perception in Congress that the taxpayer should not be subsidizing the First Class

amenities you have mentioned. They have heart aches when the term - Land Cruise - is mentioned.

I also am not sure what kind of TV Jet Blue offers, but I don't beleive it is live feed for things like sporting events, Super Bowl type operations, etc.

Wine tasting, movies on board, wi-fi are all more plausible, but the idea of TVs at every seat would amount to an astronomical investment in capital even without the fees needed to pay to get content for the TVs.


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## PetalumaLoco (Jun 18, 2009)

We already call x-country Amtrak travel our "land yacht" or "dry cruise", and enjoy the heck out of it. 

Gotta take issue with American Idol, I ride the trains to get away from that stuff. Hopefully earphones would be the rule.

Where would you put a 16" flat screen in a roomette? On the ceiling?

Please, no games in the lounge car, this is for sightseeing and relaxing. Bring a gameboy and play it in your seat. Same goes for the TV and sports. I feel like this is too much and would wreck the traveling by train experience. Just my 2 cents, but it seems like the train would be turned into a bus depot waiting room.

PS

I just can't get over your member name, it's great!


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## transit54 (Jun 18, 2009)

I agree with wifi - I think it would really help to bring business travelers and such on board. However, large parts of the country are without broadband cellular coverage and satellite coverage is very, very pricey - making wifi an expensive option most won't want to pay for. But I see this being great in corridors. I think I heard this was being tested in California some time ago.

The TVs are an interesting idea. But then why not just fly JetBlue? Part of the appeal to me of train travel is the ability to see the country, watch the scenery, and interact with others on the train (I also enjoy the ability to bring my laptop along and comfortably get work done). If I planned to watch TV from coast to coast, why did I decide to sit for three days on a train? I'd just have bought a JetBlue ticket. I suppose it makes sense for the fear-of-flying crowd, but otherwise I can't see the appeal. I do see this being appealing on corridor services - something to ease boredom for a several hour ride on the Vermonter perhaps (once you've done it 25 times or so, you know what the scenery looks like, and I can see more of a comparison between plane/train travel on a corridor route). But I wonder if that's too limited an application for it - and then you'd see some cars with and without the service, which would make things much more complex.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 18, 2009)

What Amtrak really needs, really...

1. Lawyers to keep riding host RRs butts about obeying right-of-way laws.

2. Money from the Federal Government to improve trackage in high-demand areas on freight routes. In MO, MO DOT went in almost 50.50 with UP to extend a siding to allow their trains to yield to Amtrak.

3. New cars for the Eastern LD routes, as well as new bags.

4. Refurbishment of all Superliner cars. Sleepers to the "Empire" standard and coaches with a set of outlets at every seat.

5. The repeal of SDS's more offensive policies.

6. The customization and marketing of individual trains as unique. The CS has the PPC, the EB has the new sleepers and real plates, and now many trains have "localized" menus. This is the right direction, it needs to continue.

After that, then you can talk to me about land cruises.


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## transit54 (Jun 18, 2009)

haolerider said:


> I also am not sure what kind of TV Jet Blue offers, but I don't beleive it is live feed for things like sporting events, Super Bowl type operations, etc.


As a former JetBlue employee, I can assure you it is a live feed. The aircraft pick up Direct TV signals and offer 36 live channels as well as movies and other non-live programing. The systems are produced by a company called LiveTV, which was purchased by JetBlue early on and remains a wholly owned subsidiary. They also offer live XM satellite radio on board.


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## haolerider (Jun 18, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > I also am not sure what kind of TV Jet Blue offers, but I don't beleive it is live feed for things like sporting events, Super Bowl type operations, etc.
> ...


Thanks, I was not aware it was live feed. I would have to agree with some of the above posters however that most people are not interested in spending their time on the train in front of a TV and TVs in the lounge would be intrusive at best.


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## cpamtfan (Jun 18, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> What Amtrak really needs, really...
> 1. Lawyers to keep riding host RRs butts about obeying right-of-way laws.
> 
> 2. Money from the Federal Government to improve trackage in high-demand areas on freight routes. In MO, MO DOT went in almost 50.50 with UP to extend a siding to allow their trains to yield to Amtrak.
> ...



Exactly. Amtrak doesn't need their trains filled up with tvs, etc..

cpamtfan-Peter


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 18, 2009)

JetBlue, incidentally, is far from low-budget airlines... you're making a lot of interesting suggestions, but in practice these things aren't always possible. They may make coach class more "fun" however, you're also making the cost of a coach ticket more expensive.

And last time I checked, JetBlue had a very limited market share, esp. when compared to big low-budget domestic service like AirTran or domestic Delta.


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## transit54 (Jun 18, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> JetBlue, incidentally, is far from low-budget airlines... you're making a lot of interesting suggestions, but in practice these things aren't always possible. They may make coach class more "fun" however, you're also making the cost of a coach ticket more expensive.
> And last time I checked, JetBlue had a very limited market share, esp. when compared to big low-budget domestic service like AirTran or domestic Delta.


Just have to defend my former employer here... 

Not to turn this into Flyertalk, but JetBlue isn't as small as you may think (or, perhaps, Airtran not as big). In the last year JetBlue had 4.2% of the domestic market, while Airtran only had 3.3%. Delta, yes, has 10.8%, but now you're talking about a legacy carrier and that's a whole different type of operation.

From: http://www.transtats.bts.gov/


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 18, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > JetBlue, incidentally, is far from low-budget airlines... you're making a lot of interesting suggestions, but in practice these things aren't always possible. They may make coach class more "fun" however, you're also making the cost of a coach ticket more expensive.
> ...


I also notice that even though Delta captures just over twice the domestic market, they make nearly three times in domestic revenue....


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## haolerider (Jun 18, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> rnizlek said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


If you throw in NW to the DL figures, you get about 16%, but that will diminish as they consolidate duplicate routes over the next few months.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 18, 2009)

Pretty good idea about wifi but lots of folks ride the train to get away from work/cell phones are convient to call

but who wants calls when they are on the EB or CS or CZor any other beautiful scenery train(well the desert ones

are an acquired taste for sure! :lol: )The best thing to do is to restore the cuts in staffing to the LD trains,

like its already been said fix the menu/food problems in the diner, bring back cognac( :lol: )and maybe for the LD

trains have a Parlor Car like the CS for first class passengers!Any thoughts about having an observation car on

the rear of LD trains perhaps limited to adults for cool beverages(  and quietness.Amtrak big shots need to get out

of the office and ride the trains more, especially ones that need the most help like the Cardinal,TE and CONO>

TVs/Games etc. are for excitement junkies, who wants to have their entertainment consist of "American

Idol" and other crap like that?? :lol: Ive thought as a night owl that if they could increase the late hours on the

LD trains in the Lounge/Diner etc. that more adults and cool people would hang out instead of being in a

lonely diner or sitting in their coach seat or room when they couldnt sleep!This is a great topic!!!!!


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## BuzzKillington (Jun 18, 2009)

While people wouldnt spend 24 hours a day watching the televisions, it could probably get a little boring for some people in the shorter evenings of the winter staring out into the darkness. Also, if all members of the party aren't interested in the scenery along the way, these things could provide valuable alternatives. If there was entertainment and scenery, the experience could be that much greater. It could also be used for people who would rather wake up in a city in the morning and not have to get up early to fly.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 18, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> If Amtrak really wants to gain ridership, they should become a type of hybrid transportation between an airplane and a cruise ship. The more comfortable people feel on the train, the more they will be willing to put up with slow trains and delays. People are usually taking the train to get to a specific destination, but they are really in no hurry of getting there or they would be flying. Amtrak needs the following:
> 1. Wi-fi on all of their trains: This is a must and should be implemented immediately. More and more people are carrying their laptops wherever they go and this is one huge advantage they could have over the airlines.
> 
> 2. TV's at every seat on LD trains ala Jetblue Airlines: Yeah it will cost some money to implement but people will complain much less about trains being stopped for an hour in the middle of a cornfield if they are busy watching American Idol at the time. Sleeper cars could have 12-16 inch flat screens. If you can have TV's on airplanes and ships, you can definitely have them on trains.
> ...


Wifi: Is currently available on some (Downeaster I think) amtrak trains as a "test" I have read. I agree, wi-fi should be available on all trains as soon as possible if it is not a tremendous expense (which it shouldn't be).

TV's at every seat: Amtrak tried this... kinda. I remember they had TV coaches on the Silver Trains back in the day where every 3 or 4 rows maybe there was a tv hanging from the ceiling and they would show movies throughout the journey. While it wasn't at every seat, this idea has been done before.

TV's in the lounge: Amtrak has shown movies in the lounge cars before... I'm not sure if they still do but I think they may.

TV's in the Sleepers: Amtrak did have small tv's that showed tv shows and movies in the Viewliner cars at one time. They no longer have them, I heard it was mostly maintenance issues, but not really sure if thats true. I remember whatching Bruce Almighty for the first time on the Crescent though... HA!

Games in the lounge: I beleive this is available in the PPC on the Coast Starlight.

Wine Tastings for 1st Class Passengers: This is happening, it used to be only on the Starlight, now its on the Builder too. They have a wine and cheese reception for the LSL departing chicago, and my dad told me about a 1st class reception in the diner on the sunset limited trip that he just took last month (he said it was coffee, juice, bottled water, fruit, pastries, chips, things like that). I agree that these things are great, and should be seen on as many trains as practical.

I guess what I'm saying is that everything you have suggested Amtrak has done or is trying out, so none of these ideas are new to amtrak.

In reply to people who are wanting to "get away from it" no one is stopping you from turning off your wi-fi on your computer, or just sitting back and not watching the movie. Even people like me who love watching out the windows enjoy seeing a movie or checking web sites now and then 

However, most people bring along there own personal media players now, so I'm not sure if at seat tv's are really necessary. Most people who really need internet have it all the time on there phone, or through a wireless card, so I'm not sure how neccessary that is either.

I'm kinda 50/50 on all of these things. I'm all for the "extras" but I do count them as extras, not neccessary for a transportation company to provide.


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## Upstate (Jun 18, 2009)

_1. Wi-fi on all of their trains: This is a must and should be implemented immediately. More and more people are carrying their laptops wherever they go and this is one huge advantage they could have over the airlines. _

Yes, immediately. Folks on here see more value in trains than normal folks, but for normal folks they want to get from point A to B and wifi makes traveling less painful.

_2. TV's at every seat on LD trains ala Jetblue Airlines: Yeah it will cost some money to implement but people will complain much less about trains being stopped for an hour in the middle of a cornfield if they are busy watching American Idol at the time. Sleeper cars could have 12-16 inch flat screens. If you can have TV's on airplanes and ships, you can definitely have them on trains. _

Netbooks and portable DVD players are cheap, if I want my own entertainment I will bring it. This would take a huge investment

_3. Lounge car with bar seating and televisions: Big sporting events could be played in the evening as well as news programs and talk shows during the day. People could get together with their friends or meet strangers on a train over a beer while watching the game on TV. World Series/Superbowl/Playoff games are important to people. _

For the love of god no. I don't want to hear that crap. Maybe CNN on mute with subtitles or a screen with the GPS location of the train.

_4. Games available in the lounge car. This is an easy one. Get a few games of Scrabble, Trivial Pursuit and Uno and people will be entertained for hours while still watching the scenery go by. Maybe a couple of organized games of Bingo for the elderly? Or friendly game tournaments organized among passengers with maybe small prizes awarded._

If you want games just bring them yourself. I mean its not too hard to pack a deck of cards

_5. Movies shown in the bottom half of the lounge car for ALL passengers. These could be movies very newly released to DVD or, if possible, movies showing in theaters. A small charge could be put on these tickets._

Movies are nice, but don't charge.

_6. Other activities such as wine tasting on all trains, at least for first class passengers. These activities could make the journey a little more interesting since people riding the long distance trains might not be railfans or scenery people but maybe people afraid to fly or close to a train station._

How about opening up the dining car (or at least part of it) for sleeper passengers as a lounge during non dining hours. Table service for drinks and snacks and such. It would really class things up for sleeper passengers


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## PetalumaLoco (Jun 18, 2009)

> How about opening up the dining car (or at least part of it) for sleeper passengers as a lounge during non dining hours. Table service for drinks and snacks and such. It would really class things up for sleeper passengers


I _love_ this idea.


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## Bierboy (Jun 18, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> If Amtrak really wants to gain ridership, they should become a type of hybrid transportation between an airplane and a cruise ship. The more comfortable people feel on the train, the more they will be willing to put up with slow trains and delays. People are usually taking the train to get to a specific destination, but they are really in no hurry of getting there or they would be flying. Amtrak needs the following:
> 1. Wi-fi on all of their trains: This is a must and should be implemented immediately. More and more people are carrying their laptops wherever they go and this is one huge advantage they could have over the airlines.
> 
> 2. TV's at every seat on LD trains ala Jetblue Airlines: Yeah it will cost some money to implement but people will complain much less about trains being stopped for an hour in the middle of a cornfield if they are busy watching American Idol at the time. Sleeper cars could have 12-16 inch flat screens. If you can have TV's on airplanes and ships, you can definitely have them on trains.
> ...


To each his own, I guess. But this is basically all a load of crap. I agree with a previous poster; I travel by rail to relax and get away from all the electronic garbage (outside of my GPS & scanner!).


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 18, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> What Amtrak really needs, really...
> 1. Lawyers to keep riding host RRs butts about obeying right-of-way laws.
> 
> 2. Money from the Federal Government to improve trackage in high-demand areas on freight routes. In MO, MO DOT went in almost 50.50 with UP to extend a siding to allow their trains to yield to Amtrak.
> ...


I have to agree with ALC Rail Writer here. These items would be a much better investment in improving train travel that having a bunch of TV's and board games. Hey, you're on a train, look out the window, interact with your fellow travelers. If you want to be constantly amused take an hour or two to fly to your destination and spend your time in a hotel room or just stay home.

I must admit, I enjoyed the TV sets built in the back of seats on an Aer Lingas flight from Dublin to Chicago a year ago. Old TV shows, movies, games. It was cool, but I was stuck on a plane in a tight seat with no place else to go and just clouds to look at out the window!


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## Bierboy (Jun 18, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> > How about opening up the dining car (or at least part of it) for sleeper passengers as a lounge during non dining hours. Table service for drinks and snacks and such. It would really class things up for sleeper passengers
> 
> 
> I _love_ this idea.


Not gonna happen. The Amtrak employees frequently use the dining car on off hours to relax on their breaks and chat with fellow employees.


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## AlanB (Jun 18, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > > How about opening up the dining car (or at least part of it) for sleeper passengers as a lounge during non dining hours. Table service for drinks and snacks and such. It would really class things up for sleeper passengers
> ...


It's not worth opening up the diner for such an idea. There is simply no time available to make it worth while. Consider that the last seating for lunch under SDS is at 3:00 PM. That means if they eat fast, the passengers in that seating are done by 4:00 PM. First seating for Dinner is 5:00 PM. And somewhere in between 4 & 5, the dining car crew has to clean the tables and reset them for dinner.

So turning it into a lounge would mean that sleeping car pax might get to sit there for a 1/2 hour. Simply not worth the effort.


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## AlanB (Jun 18, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> TV's in the lounge: Amtrak has shown movies in the lounge cars before... I'm not sure if they still do but I think they may.


That's been eliminated on all trains, except for the Auto Train.



TVRM610 said:


> TV's in the Sleepers: Amtrak did have small tv's that showed tv shows and movies in the Viewliner cars at one time. They no longer have them, I heard it was mostly maintenance issues, but not really sure if thats true. I remember whatching Bruce Almighty for the first time on the Crescent though... HA!


Maintenance was part of the problem, but the bigger part was theft of the equipment and the tapes themselves, not to mention the cost of obtaining the first run movies.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 18, 2009)

Thanks Alan! I haven't ridden many superliner trains lately so I wasn't sure if the sightseers still showed the movies or not.

Thats a shame people were stealing video equipment from the sleepers... shame shame I say!


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## Konrad (Jun 18, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> If Amtrak really wants to gain ridership, they should become a type of hybrid transportation between an airplane and a cruise ship. The more comfortable people feel on the train, the more they will be willing to put up with slow trains and delays. People are usually taking the train to get to a specific destination, but they are really in no hurry of getting there or they would be flying. Amtrak needs the following:
> 1. Wi-fi on all of their trains: This is a must and should be implemented immediately. More and more people are carrying their laptops wherever they go and this is one huge advantage they could have over the airlines.
> 
> 2. TV's at every seat on LD trains ala Jetblue Airlines: Yeah it will cost some money to implement but people will complain much less about trains being stopped for an hour in the middle of a cornfield if they are busy watching American Idol at the time. Sleeper cars could have 12-16 inch flat screens. If you can have TV's on airplanes and ships, you can definitely have them on trains.
> ...


Spoerts broadcasts in the lounge? Another reason not to travel Amtrak.

A barman and drinks steward would lift the luxury aspect and probably pay for itself.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 18, 2009)

Konrad said:


> A barman and drinks steward would lift the luxury aspect and probably pay for itself.


Does the PPC for itself?

The lounge SA serves many premium spirits and beers-- I don't know how they could get any better unless you bring a whole bar car on board, which may detract from the family-friendly environs that Amtrak likes to live by.


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## BuzzKillington (Jun 18, 2009)

Well looking out the window at other trains and carrying a GPS and scanner is fine for you... but you're not what most people would classify as "normal". Its ok though, neither am I! But for most people who ride the train and are not railfans, entertainment is a great idea. A few other good ideas that I had. Spend about $300 per train set and purchase a Wii. You could entertain the kids for hours and adults could pass the time as well. How about coin operated games at the bar? Also, an organized karaoke night would be fun in the lounge (once in a while).


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## Konrad (Jun 18, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > A barman and drinks steward would lift the luxury aspect and probably pay for itself.
> ...


I have ridden the CS three times and the only time the attendant OFFERED a drink was during the wine tasting, a far cry from a steward taking orders and delivering drinks. Actually I wasn't even aware you could buy drinks in the PPC, half the time the bar seems to be unattended.

Maybe my local experiences lead me to expect some form of service on Amtrak.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 18, 2009)

Well last week on the CS we had a full bar menu including martinis and cocktails, all served to patrons.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 18, 2009)

Bierboy said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > > How about opening up the dining car (or at least part of it) for sleeper passengers as a lounge during non dining hours. Table service for drinks and snacks and such. It would really class things up for sleeper passengers
> ...


  The employees have the transition sleeper with a downstairs for their lounge, Im not against breaks forhard working folks but sometimes LD trips such as CZ or EB are just that, Long, and especially @ night after dinner

there should be a place(Parlor Car/First Class Lounge etc.) for sleeping car adults to go instead of a crowded lounge

with not enough seats and high priced "snacks"!Paying pax should be the first priority, Im not a snob, coach

folks(of which I am too!!!! :lol: )need better options too, especially @ night!!!!! :lol: :lol:


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## AlanB (Jun 19, 2009)

Konrad said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Konrad said:
> ...


There was a period of a year or two where the PPC didn't have an attendant, and therefore there were no drinks in the car except for the wine tasting.


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## stntylr (Jun 19, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> Well looking out the window at other trains and carrying a GPS and scanner is fine for you... but you're not what most people would classify as "normal".


Well I've been thinking bringing my GPS on my next trip and I could borrow my Dad's scanner. I know he has all the train freq's programed in. I also like to look at the track and the switches and follow where they go. Does this mean I need some help?


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## Larry H. (Jun 19, 2009)

A first class lounge, perhaps the combination bar. card room, sofa, bookcase kind of car that used to be so common would go a long way towards having sleeper passengers feel like there money had paid for a first class trip. I don't care what the congress people think. They are totally out of the terms of reality in most cases. They have no problem throwing tons of money at every conceivable issue, except that rail passengers who are paying very high fares should get something for their money.

Heres another thought about this. Granted it will take more cars available, but everyone is pretty much in agreement on that one here. If you were running say four full sleepers instead of one or two, wouldn't that help defray the cost of a separate lounge? If not, what is the rationale of the Coast Starlight having them? Why is that not good for everyone? Lets not argue no equipment, were talking about purchases of needed equipment. I would also like to see name trains be designed in way in which you knew you were taking a different train, not just the same cars no matter what the name. Actually the names are useless anymore, they used to stand for something.

My feeling is that when those here give cover to congress by agreeing with the fact that they want to provide only the most basic service gives them license to do what they have been doing, which is very little. Its the traveling public that should have some say here and I am not in agreement with there convenient use of "land cruise" when I choose to travel by rail, which no matter how you cut it is not a plane, or a bus, or a car, and should not be compared to them. These congress people are the same ones that demand personal huge air craft and staff to haul the around the country and world, go to expensive resorts for supposed fact finding, on and on. They have no problem what so ever spending for their own luxury.. When they start eating at McDonnell's, traveling coach and staying at motel six, then I will say the trains are luxuries we don't need. Hey, and we pay for our trips, they don't.

Oh and again, I say every congressman should have to spend one cross country trip per year to know what the service is really like. Plus they should have to get to washington by rail from where ever they live, it might also point out the senseless lack of routes available to the traveling public.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 19, 2009)

I like the first class lounge idea as Larry H. pointed out above.

Beyond that, I enjoy the train for the train's sake and the scenery also.

When you see the scenery think this; I may only pass this way once...let me enjoy it while I am here....not watching sports channels,etc which I could do at home".

We have 48 beautiful contiguous states, we need to enjoy them as we pass through them,from the comfort of our train.


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## Larry H. (Jun 19, 2009)

While basically I agree with the "enjoying the scenery" thought process, and of course its one of the main reasons we try different routes. But if rail is popular and becomes basic means of travel for many again, then in riding over the same route repeatedly as I do for five hours each way to Chicago, it becomes more important to have some diversion, especially when the entire ride is in the dark, which it often is. What that might be I am not sure as I also resent the total lack of respect for others that is so common in todays coach travel. Last few trips I had at least five people talking at full volume on their cell phones for over an hour, and some for several hours, while I was trying to enjoy the ride.. I would hate to see even more electronic items that might cause distractions coming from all over the car. Thus designating a separate, car or perhaps lower level of a car might be an idea to let those who have to play noisy games, or yack mindlessly a place to do it an leave the rest of us enjoy our trip. Here to if TV or movies were available on board, a lower level of a coach, or lounge might be a good use of the space and allow for more activities for those who wish them. Many people however are not tourist but people trying to reach a destination.


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## Murjax (Jun 19, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> TV's at every seat: Amtrak tried this... kinda. I remember they had TV coaches on the Silver Trains back in the day where every 3 or 4 rows maybe there was a tv hanging from the ceiling and they would show movies throughout the journey. While it wasn't at every seat, this idea has been done before.


They poorly designed that "TV coach". I rode in them a few times in 2004 and 2005 after they stopped using the TVs. I don't understand why they didn't simply put the screen in the rear of the seats. They put them on the baggage racks, which made no sense whatsoever. Sacrificing baggage space for TVs that made you sit in uncomfortable positions was probably the main thing that killed them, although half the people probably brought their own laptops or dvd players anyway. I few years ago, I think I remember reading something about Amtrak playing a documentary film on those TVs about the area they were passing through about the area they were passing through. I could be wrong though, this was a while back and I vaguely remember it.



Upstate said:


> Maybe CNN on mute with subtitles or a *screen with the GPS location of the train.*


Some of the Amfleet II cafes with the Atlantic Coast Service lounge inside actually have two TV screens on one end of the car just for displaying the location of the train. I've never seen them in use, but I think it's a great idea.


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## transit54 (Jun 19, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> While basically I agree with the "enjoying the scenery" thought process, and of course its one of the main reasons we try different routes. But if rail is popular and becomes basic means of travel for many again, then in riding over the same route repeatedly as I do for five hours each way to Chicago, it becomes more important to have some diversion, especially when the entire ride is in the dark, which it often is. What that might be I am not sure as I also resent the total lack of respect for others that is so common in todays coach travel. Last few trips I had at least five people talking at full volume on their cell phones for over an hour, and some for several hours, while I was trying to enjoy the ride.. I would hate to see even more electronic items that might cause distractions coming from all over the car. Thus designating a separate, car or perhaps lower level of a car might be an idea to let those who have to play noisy games, or yack mindlessly a place to do it an leave the rest of us enjoy our trip. Here to if TV or movies were available on board, a lower level of a coach, or lounge might be a good use of the space and allow for more activities for those who wish them. Many people however are not tourist but people trying to reach a destination.


I agree with you on the cellphone aspect. Though I have absolutely no problem asking other pax to keep it down when they're on their phones. I really think more trains should have quiet cars. Actually, I'd love to see trains have on board "phone booths" where you could go to make a call without disturbing other passengers. But I don't plan on that happening any time soon.

I think on board wifi is really critical on corridor routes to allow people to do work/access the internet enroute. I think that would contribute to a huge uptick in train ridership along corridors.

As for movies/TV, I think its a decent idea, but so many people have laptops/portable DVD players that I think many people just bring their own movies along. Very few people have cellular data cards (or tethered phones) so wifi would be providing something that otherwise many wouldn't have access to.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2009)

One customer population where Amtrak is already head and shoulders above any competition is people with mobility problems. I wish Amtrak made more of an effort to publicize those services to disabled individuals and families with handicapped children. The one problem is the stairs on the Superliner fleet. An internal wheelchair lift or one-person elevator would be a wonderful addition to those cars. That woudl give people who can't do stairs the chance to sit in the Sightseer lounge cars. Even an externally mounted chair lift that would only be used to move passengers between Superliner levels at a station stop would help.


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## AlanB (Jun 19, 2009)

Murjax said:


> They poorly designed that "TV coach". I rode in them a few times in 2004 and 2005 after they stopped using the TVs. I don't understand why they didn't simply put the screen in the rear of the seats. They put them on the baggage racks, which made no sense whatsoever. Sacrificing baggage space for TVs that made you sit in uncomfortable positions was probably the main thing that killed them, although half the people probably brought their own laptops or dvd players anyway.


They didn't put them in the rear of the seats because that technology didn't exist when those cars were built in the early 80's.

And those screens on the luggage racks were underneath the racks, so it didn't take away baggage space.


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## cpamtfan (Jun 19, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Murjax said:
> 
> 
> > They poorly designed that "TV coach". I rode in them a few times in 2004 and 2005 after they stopped using the TVs. I don't understand why they didn't simply put the screen in the rear of the seats. They put them on the baggage racks, which made no sense whatsoever. Sacrificing baggage space for TVs that made you sit in uncomfortable positions was probably the main thing that killed them, although half the people probably brought their own laptops or dvd players anyway.
> ...



Actually, Alan, I had one of these cars and the tvs were in the racks.

cpamtfan-Peter


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## cpamtfan (Jun 19, 2009)

Murjax said:


> Upstate said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe CNN on mute with subtitles or a *screen with the GPS location of the train.*
> ...



No, the tvs in the Amfleet II "Smoker Lounges" were used for movies.

cpamtfan-Peter


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## dart330 (Jun 19, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> 3. Lounge car with bar seating and televisions: Big sporting events could be played in the evening as well as news programs and talk shows during the day. People could get together with their friends or meet strangers on a train over a beer while watching the game on TV. World Series/Superbowl/Playoff games are important to people.


Before our first sleeper trip on the SWC last month, we watched Silver Streak for the first time. We both thought the bar car was really cool and would be a great addition to the train. A nice place to have a cocktail and meet your fellow travelers. The SSL always seems to be so quiet (at least when we were in there), they need a dedicated bar for people to socialize and have fun.

I would be ok with a tv at the bar if it was on mute, but I think the idea of a GPS tracker and speedo readout would be even better. And of course, wifi is a must.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 19, 2009)

dart330 said:


> BuzzKillington said:
> 
> 
> > 3. Lounge car with bar seating and televisions: Big sporting events could be played in the evening as well as news programs and talk shows during the day. People could get together with their friends or meet strangers on a train over a beer while watching the game on TV. World Series/Superbowl/Playoff games are important to people.
> ...


  Seems to be a consenus on the bar/parlor car/Im a night owl and so are lots of other travelers?the emphasis is on adult @night, kids are great in small doses!!! :lol: :lol:


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## Murjax (Jun 19, 2009)

cpamtfan said:


> Murjax said:
> 
> 
> > Upstate said:
> ...


There was a sign on them that said "Current location" or something. I wish I could find a photo of it.


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## BuzzKillington (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm not sure if Amtrak would really want a GPS and speedometer on their trains though. You'd have the non-railfans sayings things such as:

"Thats all the farther we've gotten?"

"We're still in Ohio?"

"I could drive faster than this"

"I could walk faster than this"


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 19, 2009)

Cascades has a GPS on their monitors in their coaches. It also tells delay. Many people like this feature, including myself (a person who adamantly hates Cascades service).


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## EB_OBS (Jun 19, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Cascades has a GPS on their monitors in their coaches. It also tells delay. Many people like this feature, including myself (a person who adamantly hates Cascades service).



Yep, passengers really do like this feature on the Cascades and it actually does reduce some of the "where are we" or "when is our next stop" questions that passengers will find a conductor to ask.


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## JayPea (Jun 19, 2009)

ez223 said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Cascades has a GPS on their monitors in their coaches. It also tells delay. Many people like this feature, including myself (a person who adamantly hates Cascades service).
> ...



I liked that feature the time I took the Cascades. We were a couple of hours late leaving Seattle and it helped knowing how much, if any, time we were making up.

As for cell phones, I just got back today from a boat trip from Chelan, WA, to Stehekin, WA, a 51 mile trip up and back on one of the U.S's (and the world, in my opinion) most beautiful lakes, Lake Chelan. Most of this trip takes place in an area where there are no roads, railroads, or even hiking trails. A lot of the area is as pristine as it was from the beginning of time. Best of all: NO cell phone coverage except for the first few miles out and from Chelan. Best darned trip I've taken in years! :lol:


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 19, 2009)

It seems to me that few, if any, of these things would be free, in capital expense, operation, and maintenance.

*Would Amtrak really see a significant increase in ridership if they doubled or tripled rail fares to support all of proposals?* I mean, additional lounges, theaters, game rooms, whatever, would all substantially increase the number of cars in all LD trainsets without adding seat space for additional passengers.

What else? A lap pool?


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## Upstate (Jun 19, 2009)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> It seems to me that few, if any, of these things would be free, in capital expense, operation, and maintenance.
> *Would Amtrak really see a significant increase in ridership if they doubled or tripled rail fares to support all of proposals?* I mean, additional lounges, theaters, game rooms, whatever, would all substantially increase the number of cars in all LD trainsets without adding seat space for additional passengers.
> 
> What else? A lap pool?


I think more people would ride it. It would raise fares, but I don't think it would double or triple fares. Cruise ships don't go from port to port making people spend all their time either in their rooms, dining rooms or an inadequately sized lounge. You can say that Amtrak is not in the land cruise business, but maybe they should be. I mean you can sit in a small coach seat for half a day in a plane (during daylight hours) or a larger seat for three days on the train (all hours) to go coast to coast. Sure you can get up and walk around and sit in the sightseer car, but that only amuses most people for so long. So what are the non-foamers supposed to do the rest of the time. If you cant keep them occupied they are just going to take a plane.

The longer you want people to sit in one place the more things you have to give them to occupy their time. Transatlantic flights have in flight entertainment, cruise ships have entertainment, heck even the Cat ferry from Maine to Nova Scotia has entertainment. Amtrak has, well nothing.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 19, 2009)

upstate said:


> Amtrak has, well nothing.


Amtrak has the damn scenery!


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## Upstate (Jun 19, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> upstate said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak has, well nothing.
> ...


For three whole days!


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 19, 2009)

Upstate said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > upstate said:
> ...


And it changes every day!

Here's your in-train movies for train 6:

Day One: "California" with a double feature-- "The Sierra Nevadas"

Day Two: "Utah" followed by "Canyon Land" then the main feature "The Colorado Rockies and the Green City"

Day Three: "Iowa Corn" and "Welcome to Urbania"


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## EB_OBS (Jun 19, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Upstate said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...



Best post of the day!


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## TVRM610 (Jun 19, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Cascades has a GPS on their monitors in their coaches. It also tells delay. Many people like this feature, including myself (a person who adamantly hates Cascades service).


Why would you adamantly hate Cascade service? It's been several years, but I thought this service and equipment was great.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 19, 2009)

Upstate said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > It seems to me that few, if any, of these things would be free, in capital expense, operation, and maintenance.
> ...


You are never going to get anyone but foamers and flight-o-phobes to take Amtrak cross country on a three-day-trip unless they are coming along to see the beautiful scenery. Amtrak's LDs move people locally. Its all right there in the numbers for anyone who bothers to read them. I have never felt anything is lacking from the basic services availible on board the train. I wish they looked nicer. I would love more service. But not for the low prices Amtrak charges. I use it for transportation, damnit. I don't want my low prices raised so that some idiot can spend his time on what is now a rolling bordello. Amtrak is in the transportation business.

If you would like, why don't all you folk get together, buy up the remnants of Rader's GrandeLuxe and get Amtrak to tow a few luxury cars behind select trains and see where that gets you? It got him in bankruptcy. Maybe you can do better.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 19, 2009)

Go GML!!! Excellent point!

I've many times said I would rather go on the Empire Builder AND Capitol Limited in a Deluxe sleeper than go one-way on the Canadian in a BERTH... price comparison for November 1 2009:

Amtrak WAS-SEA in Deluxe Sleeper: $1172

VIA Rail Toronto to Vancouver in Section / Berth: $1227.45 (canadian.. current exchange rate = $1087.87)

I would rather have a deluxe room with decent service, then a bunk bed with first class lounges, and fancy foods. VIA rail has taken the land cruise approach and look what it costs.


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## jackal (Jun 19, 2009)

Murjax said:


> They poorly designed that "TV coach". I rode in them a few times in 2004 and 2005 after they stopped using the TVs. I don't understand why they didn't simply put the screen in the rear of the seats. They put them on the baggage racks, which made no sense whatsoever. Sacrificing baggage space for TVs that made you sit in uncomfortable positions was probably the main thing that killed them, although half the people probably brought their own laptops or dvd players anyway. I few years ago, I think I remember reading something about Amtrak playing a documentary film on those TVs about the area they were passing through about the area they were passing through. I could be wrong though, this was a while back and I vaguely remember it.


IIRC, the Pacific Surfliner's business class car has in-seat TVs. They were only used for a short time, however--not sure why they were stopped. (They may have even been pulled out by now.)

They used to show movies in the SSL on the CS, but they found it was too great of an expense. Remember, outside of a private home viewing environment, you must purchase a license to show the film in a public place, and it's not cheap. (We wanted to host a movie night at my high school, and because it wasn't for educational purposes during the school day [and thereby falling under Title 17's educational exemption] we would have had to shell out $600. Ouch.)


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## Konrad (Jun 19, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> Go GML!!! Excellent point!
> I've many times said I would rather go on the Empire Builder AND Capitol Limited in a Deluxe sleeper than go one-way on the Canadian in a BERTH... price comparison for November 1 2009:
> 
> Amtrak WAS-SEA in Deluxe Sleeper: $1172
> ...


On the other hand I want edible food AND a bedroom.

My partner and I can travel from Vancouver to Halifax for just over $3000 Canadian dollars - first class all the way. The Seniors Companion fare can really slash the costs for a couple.

It is more expensive than Amtrak but it takes you further and you get great food (check the menus in via.com), great scenery and DOMES!


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## Upstate (Jun 19, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> You are never going to get anyone but foamers and flight-o-phobes to take Amtrak cross country on a three-day-trip unless they are coming along to see the beautiful scenery. Amtrak's LDs move people locally. Its all right there in the numbers for anyone who bothers to read them. I have never felt anything is lacking from the basic services availible on board the train. I wish they looked nicer. I would love more service. But not for the low prices Amtrak charges. I use it for transportation, damnit. I don't want my low prices raised so that some idiot can spend his time on what is now a rolling bordello. Amtrak is in the transportation business.
> If you would like, why don't all you folk get together, buy up the remnants of Rader's GrandeLuxe and get Amtrak to tow a few luxury cars behind select trains and see where that gets you? It got him in bankruptcy. Maybe you can do better.


So why not have the gov't buy up GrandeLuxe and operate it at a loss just like they are currently doing with Amtrak. I mean, if you want to talk about being in the basic transportation business then Amtrak needs to act like it and give up running sleepers, business class, and first class so everyone is treated as equal as any gov't operation should be. If they are going to run upper classes then they need to be at least looking at ways to try to make more money because their current business model is broken just like GrandeLuxe was. They are going to have to find a way to get more people than just the foamers, flight-o-phobes and scenery watchers on the trains and that means changing the way they accommodate passengers.


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## Konrad (Jun 19, 2009)

Upstate said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > You are never going to get anyone but foamers and flight-o-phobes to take Amtrak cross country on a three-day-trip unless they are coming along to see the beautiful scenery. Amtrak's LDs move people locally. Its all right there in the numbers for anyone who bothers to read them. I have never felt anything is lacking from the basic services availible on board the train. I wish they looked nicer. I would love more service. But not for the low prices Amtrak charges. I use it for transportation, damnit. I don't want my low prices raised so that some idiot can spend his time on what is now a rolling bordello. Amtrak is in the transportation business.
> ...


Hee,hee. Go right back to basics and travel like they did in 'Dr Zhivago'. At least it was cheap - which seems to be the only consideration for some on this site.

Incidentally, if I get back on QF107 and fly to New York instead of taking the train it only costs an additional $AU400 return on my trans-Pacific fare. For that I get wined and dined and have over 300 entertainment chanels to select from in ECONOMY! Amtrak, by comparison is already an expensive option.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 19, 2009)

Upstate said:


> So why not have the gov't buy up GrandeLuxe and operate it at a loss just like they are currently doing with Amtrak. I mean, if you want to talk about being in the basic transportation business then Amtrak needs to act like it and give up running sleepers, business class, and first class so everyone is treated as equal as any gov't operation should be. If they are going to run upper classes then they need to be at least looking at ways to try to make more money because their current business model is broken just like GrandeLuxe was. They are going to have to find a way to get more people than just the foamers, flight-o-phobes and scenery watchers on the trains and that means changing the way they accommodate passengers.


... Why do people like you never research your posts?

Coach fare is subsidized on Amtrak- as it should be. The sleepers cover their above-the-rails expenses. Amtrak would lose more money if they didn't run them. In essence, the sleepers turn a profit. If the sleepers couldn't turn a profit, and they do, Amtrak shouldn't run them. The government should not be funding first class travel, just as they shouldn't be financing the building of toll-free roads for the luxury of personal mobility.

The quite edible but not spectacular food, the comfortable but spartan sleepers, and the general lack of amenities allow Amtrak to turn a profit at prices as low as $50/berth for a 20 hour trip including meals- that would be the CONO, by the way- which allows the prices to be sensible.

If you want a first class lounge car- cha-ching! - with a attended bar - cha-ching! - and a steward - cha-ching! - in a more luxuriously furbished car - cha-ching! - and feature movies - cha-ching! - and satalite television - cha-ching! - and so on, in order for Amtrak to meet the mandate that they can't lose money on their sleeper service, they'd have to jack up the prices accordingly. If you want to suggest Amtrak offer a second, higher-class sleeper service on a few trains and see how it goes, be my guest.

You might be willing to pay extra for that stuff. But I seriously don't care to. I ride trains to ride trains, or to get somewhere. I know a guy who rents out a sleeper-motorcoach thing for I don't even recall how much, but if I wanted to travel in the pure lap of luxury I'd take that thing. Or I'd plan ahead and hire a private rail car.

Via, by the way, for all their high prices, loses more money per passenger than Amtrak does. I think thats impressive, but not in a positive way.


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## Larry H. (Jun 19, 2009)

GML,

We butt heads once again! I realize that your younger than amtrak which may explain your total lack of support for anything but spartan rail service. However what we have here once again is government playing politics with a service that they agreed to run. When they agreed to run the service it was not a spartan no frills and one class operation. Nor should it be in my mind. Basically they have deferred to the highway lobby and air services to the total neglect of anything more than the most meager operations of a National Rail Passenger Service.

I have brought this up before, but since when do most americans have to pay extra to use the interstate highway system which is totally free for use to who ever decides to drive up on the cement. Even though it may have cost countless Billions just to make a leaky tunnel under Boston I believe? In other words, the choices of where to spend our tax money is not always so conveniently stingy as it is with our rail system. The government should have known when it agreed to take over the existing passenger rail so as to supposedly save it, that it would cost money, just as the highway system, just as the support for air controllers and other construction. Yet the rail is the whipping boy and were supposed to be just happy with what is probably the most spartan rail system running in the world.


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## Dan O (Jun 19, 2009)

I wish they had toilets that were normal sized. Give up 6 inches per bathroom and install a normal sized toilet seat.

I prefer scenery to TV. That's what I am looking at now and I am not on a train.

Dan


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 19, 2009)

Konrad said:


> Upstate said:
> 
> 
> > Green Maned Lion said:
> ...


  Well all the foriegn comparisons are not really germaine since most of the posters are fromformer British colonies and have socialist governments that subsidise all transportation much more than we currently

do(I grant you highways are an exception along with the airlines!)As we beciome more mature and socialistic in

these tough times(nothing wrong with that for sure, whats brest for all is good for all!!!!!  )our train system at

all levels will be better!Considering the way the Bush Gang tried to do away with Amtrak(and St. Ronnies ****s also!!!)

they do a pretty good job!I love Canada and VIA, lots to learn from them for sure but the Canadian is not that much better

than the EB or CZ or CS for much more $$$(remember AMTRAK charges for the room,not per person!!!)

Please feel free to fly or ride Greyhound or drive cross country, Ive done all three many times and the

Train is THE way to go!! :lol: :lol: :lol: BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## VentureForth (Jun 20, 2009)

What Amtrak needs is:

1) Fair work for fair pay. I don't care if it ISN'T in your job description, if you suck as an employee, you're gone! You don't have the right to suck Amtrak's paycheck and watch others do your job.

2) Dedicated passenger rail line. Not gonna happen in my lifetime, but it would certainly help tremendously.

3) Affordable sleeper class. Viewliners & Superliners are great. Sectionals with 2nd class berths, no meals included, would be awesome.

4) 75 MPH _average_ LD speeds. Possible with #2 above implemented.

5) 24-hour diner. Arguably could pay for itself with 2 cooks, 2 SAs, 3 shifts.

6) Evening cocktail lounge. Arguably could pay for itself being open from 10 PM - 2 AM

7) Vending machines in lieu of cafe car attendant. Arguably could pay for itself. Would require vending machines capable of heating product on demand when dispensed.

8) ALL Equipment < 20 years old. Keep American railcar builders in business by replacing equipment every 15-20 years.

9) Double the number of trains. With all new equipment....


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## Konrad (Jun 20, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > Upstate said:
> ...


Oh, puhlease (and i swore that I'd never use that word). Democratic socialist is the term and your president is a Democratic Socialist - as is Gordon Brown, Angela Merkel, Kevin Rudd and Sarkozy among many others. Government railways operated by governments rely on passenger satisfaction to remain in power.

Your train system is NOT better.


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## volkris (Jun 20, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> You are never going to get anyone but foamers and flight-o-phobes to take Amtrak cross country on a three-day-trip unless they are coming along to see the beautiful scenery.
> ...
> 
> I don't want my low prices raised so that some idiot can spend his time on what is now a rolling bordello. Amtrak is in the transportation business.


So what you mean to say is that, outside of the NEC, Amtrak's in the transportation of foamers and flight-o-phobes business.

Surely they can't compete in the transportation business: I can usually buy plane tickets cheaper than the Amtrak fare that will get me there in two hours instead of fourteen. Speaking purely about transportation, it's clear who wins that.

So, maybe this rock bottom pricing for pure transportation strategy isn't the direction Amtrak should be going. If it wants to focus its offerings on foamers, flight-o-phobes, and people mainly looking at the scenery that's cool, but let's admit that it's the corporation's focus...and subsidize it appropriately.

On the other hand, if it wants to focus on transporting people it's worth considering raising ticket prices to pay for luxuries that make up for the slow speed travel, as is suggested here.



> If you would like, why don't all you folk get together, buy up the remnants of Rader's GrandeLuxe and get Amtrak to tow a few luxury cars behind select trains and see where that gets you? It got him in bankruptcy. Maybe you can do better.


You're right. Such a company might not be able to cover its expenses.... and might have to get Congress to... help it out a bit. Wait a second!


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 20, 2009)

Konrad said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Konrad said:
> ...


  I didnt say better, I said not that much better considering the subsidies!Nothing wrong with socialismmixed with captilism , look what a wonderful job the last admin did for us and the world!I think all countries have

good and bad, our health care sucks and so does the corporate welfare but we still have millions walking,riding,

swimming,hitching to get here and have a chance!But the important thing is the trains lets not forget!

Enjoy the journey however you go, Lifes too short not to take a trip! :lol: "BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Konrad (Jun 20, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> What Amtrak needs is:1) Fair work for fair pay. I don't care if it ISN'T in your job description, if you suck as an employee, you're gone! You don't have the right to suck Amtrak's paycheck and watch others do your job.
> 
> 2) Dedicated passenger rail line. Not gonna happen in my lifetime, but it would certainly help tremendously.
> 
> ...


Um, I'm in bed after dinner so cocktails at 22:00 Wouldn't change anything .

Superliners aren't great - they're a massive compromise.

Diners at midnight?

Vending machines to raise revenue - please direct me to athe nearest supermarket.

Australia is running equipment already 40 years old (refurbished) with no plan to replace the equipment (admittedly, it is Budd patttern, shot welded and built by ComEng).


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## Konrad (Jun 20, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> but we still have millions walking,riding,swimming,hitching to get here and have a chance!But the important thing is the trains lets not forget!
> 
> Enjoy the journey however you go, Lifes too short not to take a trip! :lol: "BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Um, we have refugees braving the Indian Ocean to get to our shores (and we don't treat them too well if they survive the crossing :angry: ).

Point is, and it's a big point, the leader of the 'free world' does not have all the answers.

Nor does any other nation - they all have their faults.

But a serve of Paprika Chicken in a Hungarian dining car on a journey fom Germany (Munich) to Austria (Vienna) craps on anything that Amtrak provides. But the Hungarian champagne was soooo sweet.


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## volkris (Jun 20, 2009)

Konrad said:


> Um, I'm in bed after dinner so cocktails at 22:00 Wouldn't change anything .


When you close your eyes and go to sleep, the rest of us still exist.... Probably


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## Konrad (Jun 20, 2009)

volkris said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > Um, I'm in bed after dinner so cocktails at 22:00 Wouldn't change anything .
> ...


When I close my eyes and go to sleep my head is occupied by woundrously fabulous and compliant beings...

But lets not go there, wouldn't want this site to get an AO content warning.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 20, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> I have brought this up before, but since when do most americans have to pay extra to use the interstate highway system which is totally free for use to who ever decides to drive up on the cement.


They don't. This is an oversight which should be corrected posthaste.



volkris said:


> So what you mean to say is that, outside of the NEC, Amtrak's in the transportation of foamers and flight-o-phobes business.


I hope that when you took standardized tests, you failed miserably in reading comprehension, either that or the test was rigged.

I stated that the numbers are for people taking local trips. This is true on the NEC. This is equally true on the LD trains. Believe it or not, the Lake Shore Limited doesn't just serve New York, Boston, and Chicago. It also serves numerous other major population centers, as well as podunks. To mention a few for that specific train: Springfield, MA, Syracuse, NY, Rochester, NY, Buffalo, NY, Cleveland, OH, and Toledo, OH. Not only do some people travel between points other than New York, Chicago, and Boston, but the vast majority of passengers do. This is classified as local travel.



volkris said:


> Surely they can't compete in the transportation business: I can usually buy plane tickets cheaper than the Amtrak fare that will get me there in two hours instead of fourteen. Speaking purely about transportation, it's clear who wins that.


Really now? I dare you to find me a cheaper coach seat flight from Albany to Cleveland. Hell, find me a cheaper one from New York to Chicago than the $84 it costs.



volkris said:


> > If you would like, why don't all you folk get together, buy up the remnants of Rader's GrandeLuxe and get Amtrak to tow a few luxury cars behind select trains and see where that gets you? It got him in bankruptcy. Maybe you can do better.
> 
> 
> You're right. Such a company might not be able to cover its expenses.... and might have to get Congress to... help it out a bit. Wait a second!


I was suggesting that there was limited market for this kind of train, as the failure of GrandLuxe indicated. From what people have told me, GrandLuxe was a very slickly run operation, yet it still failed. People don't care to pay for this stuff. People want it subsidized, and first class travel shouldn't be subsidized.

Wake up America. Your lunch is not now and never will be free.


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## Konrad (Jun 20, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > I have brought this up before, but since when do most americans have to pay extra to use the interstate highway system which is totally free for use to who ever decides to drive up on the cement.
> ...


Wake up America, your trains are third world.


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## Larry H. (Jun 20, 2009)

Yes were getting closer to the third world every day, and unfortunately something has happened to our Education System that has helped set in motion this whole "everyones the same" mentality. No one wins, no one loses, everyone goes coach of course.. The inability to accept reality has become the norm. The government will do for you, as long as your happy with your crumbs, all the while dining on 100 a pound meat at the White House.. Gee maybe they could give that source to the Amtrak Commissary? I also noticed that instead of biking, or taking Greyhound the first family spent nearly 600.00 on a trip to a play.. But we should of course not think that our lives might be a tad more interesting if rail service were back to the level the government said they were going to operate in the 70's.


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## AlanB (Jun 20, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> volkris said:
> 
> 
> > > If you would like, why don't all you folk get together, buy up the remnants of Rader's GrandeLuxe and get Amtrak to tow a few luxury cars behind select trains and see where that gets you? It got him in bankruptcy. Maybe you can do better.
> ...


While I'm not saying that GrandLuxe would have/could have been a multi-billion dollar enterprise, I suspect that the failure of GrandLuxe had more to do with the management of the company than lack of market. In fact, every company that Rader has run has gone belly up, from the Florida Fun Train to CRC to GrandLuxe.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

Yes, class divisions have ALWAYS helped this country  I mean, we may as well go full circle and rename coach class "Prole class" and call anybody in a sleeper a "Bougie".


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## BuzzKillington (Jun 20, 2009)

You're probably right that the only people who currently would travel 3 days on an Amtrak train are foamers and people who have a fear of flying. That just shows that Amtrak has not done a very good job at attracting 90+% of the population. If Amtrak is an organization interested in making money, they can't just cater to railfans who are interested in watching coal trains rumble by on the opposite track. I'm sure there are MANY more people who are not railfans who would be interested in taking the train on trips if it was more of an experience instead instead of just a means to get somewhere. Most of the ideas would be relatively cheap and could be implimented with stimulus money. As word got around by people other than railfans that the train was a really fun way to travel, more and more people would be interested in trying it. Remember, no one is going to force you to watch movies or TV if you dont want to... so if you just want to get away from everything and watch the scenery, thats fine too. But in the winter from about 5:00pm until 8:00am, you're not going to have anything else to watch except blackness. If you're not a railfan, interested in what interlocking is next, that can probably get pretty boring.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> You're probably right that the only people who currently would travel 3 days on an Amtrak train are foamers and people who have a fear of flying. That just shows that Amtrak has not done a very good job at attracting 90+% of the population. If Amtrak is an organization interested in making money, they can't just cater to railfans who are interested in watching coal trains rumble by on the opposite track.


You're kidding, right? I mean you're seriously blind if you believe that. College students, Amish, those with special needs, families, retirees, all those frequent the Western LD trains.

When was the last time you walked the consist of the EB, CZ, ect? Obviously quite awhile. Coach class is full of people going from coast to coast, the EB is constantly selling half of its seats from SEA/PDX and CHI, with much of the other half getting on and off in the short(er) term. You think those tens of thousands of people sitting in coach are railfans and people who hate flying? Really?

No. They're people who have little money, or a lot of time, or a combination of the two.

To say that Western LD trains service mainly foamers and those who hate flying is both ignorant of the facts and demonstrates a very faulty finger on the pulse of the people...


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 20, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> You're probably right that the only people who currently would travel 3 days on an Amtrak train are foamers and people who have a fear of flying. That just shows that Amtrak has not done a very good job at attracting 90+% of the population. If Amtrak is an organization interested in making money, they can't just cater to railfans who are interested in watching coal trains rumble by on the opposite track. I'm sure there are MANY more people who are not railfans who would be interested in taking the train on trips if it was more of an experience instead instead of just a means to get somewhere. Most of the ideas would be relatively cheap and could be implimented with stimulus money. As word got around by people other than railfans that the train was a really fun way to travel, more and more people would be interested in trying it. Remember, no one is going to force you to watch movies or TV if you dont want to... so if you just want to get away from everything and watch the scenery, thats fine too. But in the winter from about 5:00pm until 8:00am, you're not going to have anything else to watch except blackness. If you're not a railfan, interested in what interlocking is next, that can probably get pretty boring.


  You are kidding right?I dont know anyone that flies regularly or spends too much time stuckin traffic who wouldnt rather be riding a train! :lol: AS has been said before god forbid someone might have to talk

to interesting folks from all over on the train or read a book or listen to music or watch a movie etc.(DVD players

are really cheap now!)I havent traveled for pleasure as much as I would like but spent years on planes trains and

automobiles(would make a good movie title eh? :lol: ) and now that Im tretired wouldnt dream of traveling anyway

LD except on the train!!Ill grant you that the kind of people who think "American Idol "is entertainment,or

who watch reality shows or have to have constant stimulation probably would not enjoy LD trains and

shouldnt ride them!Most peoplke on trains are really excitted to be there, try it youll love it!! :lol: :lol: BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## transit54 (Jun 20, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> BuzzKillington said:
> 
> 
> > You're probably right that the only people who currently would travel 3 days on an Amtrak train are foamers and people who have a fear of flying. That just shows that Amtrak has not done a very good job at attracting 90+% of the population. If Amtrak is an organization interested in making money, they can't just cater to railfans who are interested in watching coal trains rumble by on the opposite track.
> ...


I have to agree with ALC here. I know many, many friends who've taken Amtrak LD across the country as a means of transportation. They don't know (or care about) a thing about railroading, and they hop on planes all the time. I mean, just look at the people who come to this board and post questions - I don't think most are foamers or afraid of flying. I think they recognize that trains are a fun, relaxing, scenic and environmentally friendly way to travel the country and see the sights.

Take, for instance, a friend of mine who is taking the LSL and the CZ next month. She's going out to grad school in CA and chose to take the train (and is quite excited about it). Why? One, Amtrak offers liberal baggage policies, making it easy and inexpensive for her to get her baggage across the country. Two, it's an enjoyable and scenic ride. And three, it's better than the alternatives - the hassle of flying with a lot of baggage, taking a bus, or driving. I think reasons like that are why the vast majority of people take Amtrak.

I mean, even look at me. Why do I take trains? Sure, I'm a bit of a railfan, but I'm also deeply passionate about aviation. I've worked in the airline industry and have come very close to getting a private pilot's license. I love to fly (one some carriers more than others) and to be around aircraft as much, if not more than, trains. So why do I prefer to take the trains? One, downtown to downtown travel - it's just much more convenient. Two, it's a much less energy intensive way to travel, and rail travel helps me balance my concern for the environment against my desire (and need) to travel regularly. Three, it's relaxing and its fun. Getting there and back becomes as much a part of the trip as wherever I'm going. It's a more social experience and I get to meet lots of interesting people. I could go on, but you get the point.

I think it's ridiculous to sit here and try and pigeon-hole why people take Amtrak. There are a multitude of reasons and a huge cross section of society enjoys rail travel. Amtrak, as I see it, tries to take that into account by offering different classes of service. Should they offer a higher level of sleeper service? I don't know. I care first and foremost about their ability to continue to run trains on a somewhat reliable and regular schedule. I'd even like to see them offer a lower class of sleeping service first, but maybe that's just me. I was able to take an overnight train from St Petersburg to Moscow last year for $55 and I had a nice, flat bed to sleep on. Yeah, service was a bit spartan and I didn't have a room to myself, but you know what, I, and a lot of other people in this country would enjoy the ability to travel that affordably while being able to go to sleep every night on a flat bed (which, for me, is what I love most about sleeper travel).

So you can argue things both ways. Sure, Amtrak has a lot of work ahead of it to bring itself to international standards. But as far as I'm concerned, I'm just thankful that these trains exist and that ridership is on the upswing.


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## sunchaser (Jun 20, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> BuzzKillington said:
> 
> 
> > You're probably right that the only people who currently would travel 3 days on an Amtrak train are foamers and people who have a fear of flying. That just shows that Amtrak has not done a very good job at attracting 90+% of the population. If Amtrak is an organization interested in making money, they can't just cater to railfans who are interested in watching coal trains rumble by on the opposite track.
> ...


Hey! We agree on something! We chose to take the train mainly for the sheer enjoyment of seeing the country up close, not from the sky! In fact, one of the cousins might be joining us on the journey. We haven't got the details worked out on his end yet on whether he will get to go. And I would not say we hate flying, just trying to avoid the hassles involved with it. Don't think I qualify as a foamer (yet), but I don't know the definition. Want to take the oldest Grandkid next year for a ride as a graduation gift.


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## haolerider (Jun 20, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> You're probably right that the only people who currently would travel 3 days on an Amtrak train are foamers and people who have a fear of flying. That just shows that Amtrak has not done a very good job at attracting 90+% of the population. If Amtrak is an organization interested in making money, they can't just cater to railfans who are interested in watching coal trains rumble by on the opposite track. I'm sure there are MANY more people who are not railfans who would be interested in taking the train on trips if it was more of an experience instead instead of just a means to get somewhere. Most of the ideas would be relatively cheap and could be implimented with stimulus money. As word got around by people other than railfans that the train was a really fun way to travel, more and more people would be interested in trying it. Remember, no one is going to force you to watch movies or TV if you dont want to... so if you just want to get away from everything and watch the scenery, thats fine too. But in the winter from about 5:00pm until 8:00am, you're not going to have anything else to watch except blackness. If you're not a railfan, interested in what interlocking is next, that can probably get pretty boring.


Buzz: I think you need to get off your computer and get out on the trains. Railfans and foamers are actually quite rare on the trains compared to the general public. Get out there and see the varied make up of the normal long distance passenger train - retirees traveling to visit family - students - families looking for a different experience - people who can't afford to fly and enjoy the train experience - it goes on and on! People who like to get up and walk around, talk to people they may never have a chance to get to know otherwise - they all are on the trains.

Your ideas of adding lots of glitz and glamour all need to meet the revenue test. Will they provide more revenue versus the capital and labor necessary to make them work? Take a look at the Pacific Parlour Car on the Coast Starlight. I understand that to be allowed by the Board of Directors and management to spend the money to refurbish the cars, they needed to show that the car could support it self and not lose money. That is the reason there is a charge for the wine tasting, that is why they sell drinks and the fact that they can move some of the sleeping car passengers from the regular dining car to the PPC allows more coach passengers to use the dining car, generting additional revenue. It's all well and good to come up with ideas when there is no need to meet the test of revenue. That is not to say that Amtrak should not take a close look at many of the suggestions that are sent their way, but they need to make it work, not just speculate that the ideas are worthwhile .


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## GoldenSpike (Jun 20, 2009)

LarryH:



> I also resent the total lack of respect for others that is so common in todays coach travel. Last few trips I had at least five people talking at full volume on their cell phones for over an hour, and some for several hours, while I was trying to enjoy the ride.


Also one of my peeves. In coach cell phones should be restricted to the luggage area for those that need to drone on endlessly with yacking.

Maybe it is time for Amtrak to have both a Chaos and Quiet car on all runs.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

To add to this fact:

If Amtrak was _really_ catering ONLY to railfans-- then we'd have less than the "Spartan" service that nearly every railfan I know well, foams at the mouth for. We'd have dome cars and observation cars, lounges and parlors... Do you think railfans WANT the "Spartan" service Amtrak offers?


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## sunchaser (Jun 20, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> To add to this fact:
> If Amtrak was _really_ catering ONLY to railfans-- then we'd have less than the "Spartan" service that nearly every railfan I know well, foams at the mouth for. We'd have dome cars and observation cars, lounges and parlors... Do you think railfans WANT the "Spartan" service Amtrak offers?



Did you mean to say more than?

I would expect that some railfans would also want more steam engines on the rails.

We did neglect in the list of rail travelers people who come from other countries to experience the rails/country from the train.


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## GoldenSpike (Jun 20, 2009)

ALC:



> ..you bring a whole bar car on board, which may detract from the family-friendly environs that Amtrak likes to live by.


Times have changed. I remember in the early days of Amtrak they had a bar car where one could sit at a counter to drink. One trip in particular going across ND well after 2 a.m. the car was full.

On a CZ trip the lower lounge area remined full from the time we left CHI to well into the early AM hours of anybody wanting to join the 'party.' It picked up the next day.

You are correct Amtrak is changing things to a family-friendly atmosphere.

Two years ago I was on a EB for New Year's Eve. 10 pm, they closed down the snack bar squelching any thoughts of 'celebrating' by travelers who were disappointed on the announcement.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > To add to this fact:
> ...


Of course. Whatever makes me sound right! :blink:


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## Ispolkom (Jun 20, 2009)

GoldenSpike said:


> You are correct Amtrak is changing things to a family-friendly atmosphere.
> Two years ago I was on a EB for New Year's Eve. 10 pm, they closed down the snack bar squelching any thoughts of 'celebrating' by travelers who were disappointed on the announcement.


Twelve or fourteen years ago I was on the Crescent on New Year's Eve. The lounge car was open. . . til 11. So things haven't changed that much.


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## BuzzKillington (Jun 20, 2009)

To pay for the TV's/On Demand movies on the back of every seat, they could sell the earphones for maybe $2-$3 per person for people who would want to use them. That could maintain the upkeep of the equipment while people who want to look at the scenery can look out the window for free.

The few TV's in the lounge will be relatively cheap to maintain. Raise the price of beer 50 cents if you need to but keep it open later. They'll probably end up making money they could put to other entertainment. You could even watch the big ball come down at midnight on New Years.


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## Ryan (Jun 20, 2009)

That's a lot of earphones to sell, and considering that most people have a handful of them already, I don't think that covering the costs for _operating_TV/OnDemand type services is even remotely reasonable (let alone the massive costs in purchasing and installing the equipment).

Not to mention, you're still missing a reliable way of getting live TV events to the TVs on the train.


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## AlanB (Jun 20, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> To pay for the TV's/On Demand movies on the back of every seat, they could sell the earphones for maybe $2-$3 per person for people who would want to use them. That could maintain the upkeep of the equipment while people who want to look at the scenery can look out the window for free.


These days half the world travels with their own headphones, so you won't sell many pairs at all. On Acela they used to give them out for free in First Class and sell them in Business Class. Now they do neither. And on the Cascades where they actually do show movies, in my car which was full, I think that they sold one pair. Now maybe I hit an odd car where no one cared to watch the movie or they already had headphones, I don't know. But I do know that's not going to pay for the movies.



BuzzKillington said:


> The few TV's in the lounge will be relatively cheap to maintain. Raise the price of beer 50 cents if you need to but keep it open later. They'll probably end up making money they could put to other entertainment. You could even watch the big ball come down at midnight on New Years.


It wasn't the price of the TV's that killed the movies in the lounge, it was the price of the movies and the VCR replacement costs.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> To pay for the TV's/On Demand movies on the back of every seat, they could sell the earphones for maybe $2-$3 per person for people who would want to use them. That could maintain the upkeep of the equipment while people who want to look at the scenery can look out the window for free.
> The few TV's in the lounge will be relatively cheap to maintain. Raise the price of beer 50 cents if you need to but keep it open later. They'll probably end up making money they could put to other entertainment. You could even watch the big ball come down at midnight on New Years.


The earphones thing is done on Cascades service. Needless to say, with everybody these days walking around with iPods and CD players and such-- most everybody already HAS a set of headphones should they want to use them. The same thing happens on airlines. They may, rarely, curb the cost of showing a movie, however (esp. on a LD train) they will NOT cover the costs of installation and upkeep. Maybe a decade ago, maybe five years ago, but not today and certainly not in the future.

Beer is currently $4.50 and $5.50 for "Premium" beers. Food service (esp. in the café) takes a wash on EVERY train. The SSL is a loss for a train, you add a few TVs and you'll only make the problem worse because you've increased the cost of running the car and you've driven off some sales by raising prices. That, and do you understand how many SSLs there are in the system? Quite a few, add two TVs in each one and you're looking at well over a hundred sets.

You're also defeating the point of an SSL by doing so. The reason they have those huge windows is because people want to watch, take pictures, and enjoy! They run the trails and rails programs there, how would you like those park volunteers competing with a football game?

As for not keeping it open for service until midnight, there's reason for this. The reason is that the crew has to sleep! The SSL SA is on duty from before dawn until after dusk, with breaks. You keep food and drink service open until midnight and the SA gets only six hours to sleep for an 18 hour day! The way to solve this problem, of course, is to bring on a second SA and have shifts. Do that, and now you have to cover that person's salary too!

Seriously man, I agree with what others have said. You need to get out and ride the trains, enjoy them. Then you'll see how many complaints you'll get from pax who miss the tube or Internet.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 20, 2009)

There are/were several reasons why AMTRAK stopped showing TV and movies in the SSLs.

1. The TVs generated a fair number of complaints.

a) some passengers feel television and movies intrudes on their enjoying the scenery, and IMHO, rightly so.

b) many complaints were that the volume was either too loud or not loud enough.

c) passengers expected programming to be shown only to find out the equipment was damaged or missing

d) you never could pick just the right programming for everyone. someone was always not happy

2. The cost of the contract with the movie studios was enormous from what I've been told.

3. The movie tapes had to be accounted for and turned in, many disappeared. The LSA was responsible for these.

4. AMTRAK did try to outsource video entertainment, but honestly with the proliferation of personal dvd players and such, it wasn't a very well thought out business model.


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## BuzzKillington (Jun 20, 2009)

If Amtrak can't turn a profit on alcohol sales, then they dont deserve to be in business in the first place.

The bar area could be in the lower level of the SSL. Large windows on each side and table seating could surround the bar area. This way people can watch the entertainment and the scenery virtually at the same time. The upper level could remain as is as it is a great place to see the sights of everything around as well as a game area.

In the single level fleet, they should have a Viewliner lounge car with double windows much the same as the sleeping cars. One side will have double windows (maybe even going into the ceiling) and the other side will have double windows for 2/3 of the car with single windows in back of the service person. A TV or two can be above the windows for entertainment as well as watching scenery. The rest of the car will have table seating and a few benches facing toward the windows (like the SSL).


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## volkris (Jun 20, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I was suggesting that there was limited market for this kind of train, as the failure of GrandLuxe indicated. From what people have told me, GrandLuxe was a very slickly run operation, yet it still failed. People don't care to pay for this stuff. People want it subsidized, and first class travel shouldn't be subsidized.


The failure of GrandLuxe indicated that it couldn't cover its costs, just like Amtrak, and just like people on this board assert when they say no rail service can be self sufficient. You say this "first class" travel shouldn't be subsidized... but then there's no magic argument making it ok to subsidize spartan service but not "first class" (really, upgraded) service. In particular, BK's arguments make it MORE appropriate to subsidize a system with the upgrade many potential customers and a larger cross section of the population would (he claims) want.

Certainly nobody in this discussion has disproven his claims, and I doubt anyone has the data to do so. A railfan's statement that he personally wouldn't want some feature is certainly not indication that the general public doesn't want it.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> When was the last time you walked the consist of the EB, CZ, ect? Obviously quite awhile. Coach class is full of people going from coast to coast, the EB is constantly selling half of its seats from SEA/PDX and CHI, with much of the other half getting on and off in the short(er) term.


Funny. GML said the stats show LD trains favoring short trips over long ones.



jimhudson said:


> You are kidding right?I dont know anyone that flies regularly or spends too much time stuckin traffic who wouldnt rather be riding a train!


*raises hand*

I fly all the time and I prefer it to trains because I simply don't have time to be away from work and loved ones while the train rumbles at 35mph through the mountains. Occasionally I even drive rather than take the train, putting up with the traffic because I still get there in half the time... and normally for less money too!

So shall we count this as one?

Maybe if there were more amenities on the trains to make up for the lost time, as BK suggests, I'd take it more often, and I'm sure others would as well.



> I think it's ridiculous to sit here and try and pigeon-hole why people take Amtrak. There are a multitude of reasons and a huge cross section of society enjoys rail travel. Amtrak, as I see it, tries to take that into account by offering different classes of service. Should they offer a higher level of sleeper service? I don't know.


I think that's the point, that currently Amtrak is lacking even an option for these features, and while a cross section of society enjoys rail travel, it's not particularly huge, and its growth is limited by the lack.

As ridership begins to expand more quickly and as there's some funding available, Amtrak needs to work on diversifying its offerings in a rational, responsible way.


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## Larry H. (Jun 20, 2009)

I agree that a great cross section of people are riding Amtrak and I enjoy all of them.. That is not to say the only the most basic service then should be allowed by congress or whom ever seems to constantly think that eating a decent meal, not pre made, and if you've paid a hefty price for first class service that one should not expect a lounge car reflective of the prices charged.

Here is how I am looking at it now.. the rail roads who by the way were in the passenger business at the time, back in the days of trying to attract passengers, designed trains to cater to a whole cross section of various people. You only need to look at the plans for the modern passenger trains shown in places like Popular Mechanics in the late 40's or early 50's to see what a real passenger rail road thought was good for business and good for the customer. The did not reach for the lowest possible denominator but put forth wonderful trains like the California Zephyr, Santa Fe Super Chief, Empire Builder, City of Los Angles, 20th Century Limited, and many more crack trains. Their trains included sleeping cars for all grades of passenger in many cases from berths to slumber coach to drawing rooms. First class lounges were the norm as was fine food service. Attractive cafe cars with counters and informal table settings were included for those who wished a more modest meal. Decent sized bathrooms with dressing areas and lots of chairs and mirrors were common even in coach class.

I ask you, who knew more about what the passenger would want than the Railroads of the time.. So why do we now in hind site think that they were so off base? I don't think there is a good answer for that other than as I mentioned earlier, the Government interference with how the operation should go according to their personal opinions and whims. Other countries as has been mentioned by other posters here have government subsidies, but still offer a kind of service totally lacking with amtrak. They don't seem to feel its out of place or unnecessary?


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## EB_OBS (Jun 20, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> If Amtrak can't turn a profit on alcohol sales, then they dont deserve to be in business in the first place.
> The bar area could be in the lower level of the SSL. Large windows on each side and table seating could surround the bar area. This way people can watch the entertainment and the scenery virtually at the same time. The upper level could remain as is as it is a great place to see the sights of everything around as well as a game area.
> 
> In the single level fleet, they should have a Viewliner lounge car with double windows much the same as the sleeping cars. One side will have double windows (maybe even going into the ceiling) and the other side will have double windows for 2/3 of the car with single windows in back of the service person. A TV or two can be above the windows for entertainment as well as watching scenery. The rest of the car will have table seating and a few benches facing toward the windows (like the SSL).



Alcohol sales on-board do generate profit. It was mentioned already that the lounge car attendant needs to be off duty at some time and is contractually entitled to a minimum six hours rest. If the attendant doesn't get six hours rest then it costs AMTRAK double-time unless the attendant is able to get make-up rest during the next 24 hours, which never happens by the way.

If there were to be two shifts, thus having two lounge car attendants on each train, the labor and benefits cost will far outweigh the revenues generated by alcohol sales. We don't actually sell that much alcohol on the train. Nor do I think would we want to. One or two drunk belligerent passengers is difficult enough to deal with. A train full of them would just be a nightmare. That's how much alcohol would need to be sold to cover the cost of a second attendant.


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## volkris (Jun 20, 2009)

ez223 said:


> There are/were several reasons why AMTRAK stopped showing TV and movies in the SSLs.
> 1. The TVs generated a fair number of complaints.
> 
> a) some passengers feel television and movies intrudes on their enjoying the scenery, and IMHO, rightly so.
> ...


Other than 1a, none of these problems exist anymore in modern video services, and 1a might not be a problem anyway depending on market breakdowns.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 20, 2009)

volkris said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > There are/were several reasons why AMTRAK stopped showing TV and movies in the SSLs.
> ...



I think the design of the Cascades cars is the better way to have video entertainment. Leave the SSL out of it entirely. Placed appropriately throughout the car, on the ceiling as is on the Cascades, with headphones required to listen in. At 10pm lights out all video is turned off.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

volkris said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > There are/were several reasons why AMTRAK stopped showing TV and movies in the SSLs.
> ...


So prove it.

What "modern video service" pleases everybody so that 1d is false? What "modern video service" doesn't break down now and then (if not being totally unreliable?) How about the costs of movie contracts, those haven't gone down to nothing you know-- and technology has no effect on this. You also assume that 3 wouldn't happen? That people wouldn't take a DVD if it was left out? And what about 4-- are you arguing that many pax bring Laptops, media players, DVD players and such on board, and how is your "modern video service" going to stop it.



> Funny. GML said the stats show LD trains favoring short trips over long ones.


Funny, there's an obvious reason for this. Try riding coach from SEA to CHI once or twice. I've done it a couple times, the SA's put the long-haul pax in window seats to themselves (unless otherwise requested) and they rotate the aisle seats with the short-term pax as they come and go. In one trip on the EB bound to PDX, I had five different people sit with me during the duration of the trip. Thus there is 1 ticket sold for CHI-PDX but 5 sold for intermediate stops. Between 1/3 and 1/2 of the EB has coach pax going it for the long haul. Don't believe me, walk a consist and read the seat checks. I do it every time I am on Amtrak out West even when I am in sleeper to see where everybody is going.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

BuzzKillington said:


> If Amtrak can't turn a profit on alcohol sales, then they dont deserve to be in business in the first place.
> The bar area could be in the lower level of the SSL. Large windows on each side and table seating could surround the bar area. This way people can watch the entertainment and the scenery virtually at the same time. The upper level could remain as is as it is a great place to see the sights of everything around as well as a game area.
> 
> In the single level fleet, they should have a Viewliner lounge car with double windows much the same as the sleeping cars. One side will have double windows (maybe even going into the ceiling) and the other side will have double windows for 2/3 of the car with single windows in back of the service person. A TV or two can be above the windows for entertainment as well as watching scenery. The rest of the car will have table seating and a few benches facing toward the windows (like the SSL).


Airlines don't turn profit on alcohol sales... hell, there's plenty of bars and alcohol establishments that in a down economy don't turn a profit on alcohol sales.

You realize what you're saying, right? You're condemning every train (even the NEC trains and day trains) to death because they can't turn profit on one item.

Businesses often take loss on some products in order to try and bring profit on others. People wouldn't take trains if they didn't have food service cars-- without food service the trains on the West would never get close to even getting a third back on ticket sales...

Simply put: in order for Amtrak to exist as it does, then it must provide food service, even if it must take a loss.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 20, 2009)

If showing movies in the lounge car improves the # of riders than why has LD trains INCREASED revenue since the movies were iliminated? Honestly I don't think people really care that much about movies. Personally... I think its fine for Amtrak to provide this if they can, but I don't think they are or will lose money if they do not show movies in the lounge at seats etc.


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## volkris (Jun 20, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> What "modern video service" pleases everybody so that 1d is false? What "modern video service" doesn't break down now and then (if not being totally unreliable?) How about the costs of movie contracts, those haven't gone down to nothing you know-- and technology has no effect on this. You also assume that 3 wouldn't happen? That people wouldn't take a DVD if it was left out? And what about 4-- are you arguing that many pax bring Laptops, media players, DVD players and such on board, and how is your "modern video service" going to stop it.


Video on demand services in establishments ranging from hotels to homes to bars to business and other campuses are groundbreaking these days. They may not be around every corner, but they're ripe for the picking.

A business I worked at looked into it a few years ago and the technology was commoditized, with companies happy to install foolproof devices with proven track records and prearranged contracts with content providers.

Yes, back in the 80s when playing videos involved VCRs, bulky TVs, and moving parts and hassles around every corner... that was quite a feat. But today it can even be solid state end to end with uptimes measured in multiple years between failure. Technology has completely changed the game here; the experiences of even a decade ago don't say much about the possibility now.

Heck, if airlines can manage...



> > Funny. GML said the stats show LD trains favoring short trips over long ones.
> 
> 
> Thus there is 1 ticket sold for CHI-PDX but 5 sold for intermediate stops. Between 1/3 and 1/2 of the EB has coach pax going it for the long haul. Don't believe me, walk a consist and read the seat checks. I do it every time I am on Amtrak out West even when I am in sleeper to see where everybody is going.


What's your point? You said LD trains were about transporting people across long distances, and GML said they were primarily used to transport people short distance, and thus don't suggest the improvements that BK proposed. I don't really care about the technicalities of the numbers; you two are presenting contradictory claims.



ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> BuzzKillington said:
> 
> 
> > If Amtrak can't turn a profit on alcohol sales, then they dont deserve to be in business in the first place.
> ...


Pretty sure he meant that rhetorically. In any case, arguably Amtrak isn't in business now; it's burning through our tax dollars (as is, apparently, unavoidable), and that's not much of a business plan in the common sense of the word.



> Businesses often take loss on some products in order to try and bring profit on others. People wouldn't take trains if they didn't have food service cars-- without food service the trains on the West would never get close to even getting a third back on ticket sales...
> Simply put: in order for Amtrak to exist as it does, then it must provide food service, even if it must take a loss.


And that's much in line with what BK is proposing, except that he asserts alcohol sales not to be as large a loss leader as food service while attracting customers for similar reasons. I don't know that I agree about alcohol sales coming closer to breaking even, but I see what he's saying.



TVRM610 said:


> If showing movies in the lounge car improves the # of riders than why has LD trains INCREASED revenue since the movies were iliminated? Honestly I don't think people really care that much about movies. Personally... I think its fine for Amtrak to provide this if they can, but I don't think they are or will lose money if they do not show movies in the lounge at seats etc.


It's the old line about serial killers drinking milk: the comparison is not scientific and is flat out confounded by externalities. For all we know ridership would have increased MORE had the movies stuck around.... and had the systems been as reliable and customer friendly as what we have available now.


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## Ryan (Jun 20, 2009)

volkris said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > What "modern video service" pleases everybody so that 1d is false? What "modern video service" doesn't break down now and then (if not being totally unreliable?) How about the costs of movie contracts, those haven't gone down to nothing you know-- and technology has no effect on this. You also assume that 3 wouldn't happen? That people wouldn't take a DVD if it was left out? And what about 4-- are you arguing that many pax bring Laptops, media players, DVD players and such on board, and how is your "modern video service" going to stop it.
> ...


None of that has ever been on a train, what about maintenance, vibration, getting the content to the device, and *THE COST!*. You're going to have to justify that the ticket revenue is going to increase by enough to pay for these fancy toys to pay for them in some fashion. Ain't gonna happen. Anyone interested in watching video on a train is going to have the capability to do so today with personally owned eletronics where they can pick what to watch, when to watch it and pause/rewind/ff as desired.

This is another solution just looking for a problem.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 20, 2009)

volkris said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > If showing movies in the lounge car improves the # of riders than why has LD trains INCREASED revenue since the movies were iliminated? Honestly I don't think people really care that much about movies. Personally... I think its fine for Amtrak to provide this if they can, but I don't think they are or will lose money if they do not show movies in the lounge at seats etc.
> ...


What the heck are you talking about? lol. I'm just saying... that all of the things that Buzz is talking about Amtrak has tried or is trying. So the idea that ridership will significantly raise due to these extra services is something that I don't quite understand.

Also... Amtrak is SELLING OUT alot of there LD trains. So I'm pretty sure they are doing something right and need to focus more money on adding equipment and routes.

AGAIN... I'm all for movies, longer hours at the bar, wi-fi, on-board bingo competitions... whatever they wanna try. I like the extras... I like wine tastings, and movies... and I mentioned that I used to watch my little viewliner tv and enjoyed it... but me riding amtrak does not depend on these services.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

That and LCD screens are known to crack like eggs. Love to see a train full of LCD screens running over UP track... Ha!


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 20, 2009)

ez223 said:


> BuzzKillington said:
> 
> 
> > If Amtrak can't turn a profit on alcohol sales, then they dont deserve to be in business in the first place.
> ...


  Really good info from someone who knows, a person who worrks on the trains!I for one wouldnt wantto pay higher prices for drinks or services even though I favor a lounge car for adults, suggest on the end of the

train like the observation cars used to be!Perhaps unmanned after hours so the crew can get their rest but

the ideas about game rooms and visual stimuli are for 12 year olds and excitement jumkies that probably wont

ride anyway or will bring their electronic gadgets with them!Does the Costal Starlight still have games downstairs?

I still think a Parlor Car on the Long Distance trains makes sense for sleeper passengers!   "BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Susie (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm all for them just to refurbish the cars, coach and especially first class. Spending $481 for a roomette, traveling in a dingy and worn room and not very clean. The velcro didn't even match up on the curtains so I could have privacy. One of the toilet seats was held together with duct tape. Could barely get in the shower, it was so crammed full of towels. For being first class the cars are definitely not classy.


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## Konrad (Jun 20, 2009)

Susie said:


> I'm all for them just to refurbish the cars, coach and especially first class. Spending $481 for a roomette, traveling in a dingy and worn room and not very clean. The velcro didn't even match up on the curtains so I could have privacy. One of the toilet seats was held together with duct tape. Could barely get in the shower, it was so crammed full of towels. For being first class the cars are definitely not classy.


Most of what you all say can't be done has already been done and been operating for 40 years...

http://www.gsr.com.au/our-trains/indian-pa...the-journey.php

Choose from three levels of accommodation and pay as much or as little as you want.

And it's all run with government subsidies (and like 'The Canadian' it's all tied up in the constitution - it HAS to operate).


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## EB_OBS (Jun 20, 2009)

There are quite a few people I know at work who would love to see a similar car to the PPC on the Empire Builder. Just a few of the benefits would be;

- a car designated solely for sleeper car passengers only, adding increased value to the upgrade price

- taking a small portion of the load off the dining car for meals

- PPC has the movie theater, I think a fairly good use of space, anyone have any other suggestions there

- another OBS job in Seattle, there's eleven crews so eleven jobs

- move the wine tasting from the diner into this car and can allow lunch in the diner to go til 3pm, currently ends at 2pm

- if designed as a viewing car could be similar to the SSL for windows and picture taking etc.

I'm optimistic. I too would like to see someday a PPC like car on the Empire Builder.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 21, 2009)

Amtrak has a first class lounge on the Coast Starlight. I realize it's just one train but Amtrak is doing it.... and so far it has barely convinced congress to let them keep it because it barely justifies its costs. Now I know there are deeper issues then that... but lets be honest, the Coast Starlight will sell sleeper space weather it has a 1st class lounge or not. Just like the Zephyr, and the Chief... etc. What Amtrak has to do is see how it can justify the cost... things like providing meal service and open bar and pay-for wine tastings. Amtrak has to figure some things out before they can expand this to other trains. Does anyone on here have a job? Don't you know how many committees and boards new ideas have to go through before they even get seriously looked at? You can't expect new services over-night. I think Amtrak is seriously considering PPC type service on the Empire Builder... but they need to figure out WHAT they want to do... HOW they want to do it... AND THEN get the equipment for it!

The same goes for wi-fi... Amtrak is trying it out on the Downeaster....

The same goes for Movies... Amtrak has tried it and it didn't show any increase of revenue.

I'm just trying to look at this realistically... I would love to see dome cars, and observation cars, and parlor cars and all sorts of really great things... so if we want to say "what if" and dream "blue sky" then be my guest. But if you want to seriously say that Amtrak is losing ridership because it doesn't have movies... I'm sorry I don't think that is true.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 21, 2009)

ezz223... I wrote my above post while you were posting yours.. I wasn't actually responding directly to you.... even though I mentioned PPC cars on the Empire Builder (great minds think alike!)


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 21, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> Amtrak has a first class lounge on the Coast Starlight. I realize it's just one train but Amtrak is doing it.... and so far it has barely convinced congress to let them keep it because it barely justifies its costs. Now I know there are deeper issues then that... but lets be honest, the Coast Starlight will sell sleeper space weather it has a 1st class lounge or not. Just like the Zephyr, and the Chief... etc. What Amtrak has to do is see how it can justify the cost... things like providing meal service and open bar and pay-for wine tastings. Amtrak has to figure some things out before they can expand this to other trains. Does anyone on here have a job? Don't you know how many committees and boards new ideas have to go through before they even get seriously looked at? You can't expect new services over-night. I think Amtrak is seriously considering PPC type service on the Empire Builder... but they need to figure out WHAT they want to do... HOW they want to do it... AND THEN get the equipment for it!
> The same goes for wi-fi... Amtrak is trying it out on the Downeaster....
> 
> The same goes for Movies... Amtrak has tried it and it didn't show any increase of revenue.
> ...


Most posters do have jobs, I happened to just have retired(old is not dead! :lol: )but the real key towhat you said to me is do you have any idea how many committees and boards new ideas have to go through before

they get seriously looked at?This is Amtraks real problem, if we contact our congress and senators about putting

the heat on Amtraks desk jockeys perhaps even Vice President Biden who seems to be our real ace in the hole!!!

There is no reason with Beech Grove gearing up that Superliner rebuilds cant @ least be put on the EB and CZ

to start as a first class lounge!Someone said more jobs for OBS crew, this is the idea of stimulus no?Equipment

is great but it wont run itself and IT IS OUR MONEY afterall, trillions for banks and failed companies,how about

a few million for the trains and the passengers who love them? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## TVRM610 (Jun 21, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak has a first class lounge on the Coast Starlight. I realize it's just one train but Amtrak is doing it.... and so far it has barely convinced congress to let them keep it because it barely justifies its costs. Now I know there are deeper issues then that... but lets be honest, the Coast Starlight will sell sleeper space weather it has a 1st class lounge or not. Just like the Zephyr, and the Chief... etc. What Amtrak has to do is see how it can justify the cost... things like providing meal service and open bar and pay-for wine tastings. Amtrak has to figure some things out before they can expand this to other trains. Does anyone on here have a job? Don't you know how many committees and boards new ideas have to go through before they even get seriously looked at? You can't expect new services over-night. I think Amtrak is seriously considering PPC type service on the Empire Builder... but they need to figure out WHAT they want to do... HOW they want to do it... AND THEN get the equipment for it!
> ...


Well let me be clear that I think most people have jobs... OR they are retired from many years of great work (and God forbid that I insulted someone who doesn't have a job due to the economy  ) I suppose I should rephrase that. I have a job... and it is a Privately owned business with a small board of directors and a few small officers. It takes FOREVER to get an idea seriously thought about, let alone for them to approve spending real money on it!

I can only imagine how long it takes to get Amtrak board members to agree that an idea is even worth considering... and THEN for them to put some money into it... and then what if congress thinks its crazy... or this board does or that board.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> Susie said:
> 
> 
> > I'm all for them just to refurbish the cars, coach and especially first class. Spending $481 for a roomette, traveling in a dingy and worn room and not very clean. The velcro didn't even match up on the curtains so I could have privacy. One of the toilet seats was held together with duct tape. Could barely get in the shower, it was so crammed full of towels. For being first class the cars are definitely not classy.
> ...


  A really great train ride, sort of SSL X3, really like the price break that pensioners and students get, most other countries do give seniors and students better breaks than we do!It does look like the Gold Service is a little pricey,not to mention the GST! :lol: Is the Australian $$ strong or pretty fixed against our buck!Id love to go to Australia

if I could afford it, maybe in the next life eh!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Konrad (Jun 21, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > Susie said:
> ...


Before the world went mad our dollar was at 98 cents to the greenback. When I was there in March/April this year it had flopped to 62 cents! That was the time to buy a ride across Australia in US dollars. All to do with China not wanting our coal and iron until everyone starts shopping again.

Currently the dollar is at 80 US cents so you can still get a good deal.

And the GST helps to pay for our health system, so we don't mind (too much) paying it. The law in Australia requires the check-out price to be quoted on the price tag - so the price you see is the full price, not like the insane US situation where you have to calculate the final price yourself - and how often have I been caught and have to go diving into my wallet to find extra cash!

And to refer to another thread in here - coach has showers.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Konrad said:
> ...


  Thanks for the info!We need better health care and better trains!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: "BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Oh yeah, showers in coach, hope one of the ideas AMTRAKs braintrusters are working on is to remodel the

coaches along with the sleepers and diners,they could utuilize their space better, one thing is a shower in

the coaches, possibly return to slumbercoaches for a little more with no meals/works in most of the world eh!   

"BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Konrad (Jun 21, 2009)

jimhudson said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > jimhudson said:
> ...


Actually, our economy roomettes are pretty much the same as Amtrak's 1st class roomettes (with more headroom). Our 1st class roomettes don't have an upper berth.

And the whole train was designed by Budd! Dust off those old plans Amtrak.

And having been through a crash on the Indian-Pacific I can vouch for the structural integrity of the design. An 18 wheeler hitting the coaches bounced off (of course it hit coach - wouldn't dare hit 1st class). And we bounced to a grinding halt in a ditch and every passenger walked away  .

And could Amtrak put REAL glass in the windows of any new cars. Photography is a waste of time with the current stuff.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 21, 2009)

> And could Amtrak put REAL glass in the windows of any new cars. Photography is a waste of time with the current stuff.


Guess again. I get very good pictures. It requires a little bit of patience, but you can take photographs without the glare.

As for your trains-- I don't see what you mean by having what we say is impossible... You don't have TVs at every seat and such (at least not what I can see from the website) and your prices, even adjusted for currency, are outrageous!


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## Konrad (Jun 21, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> > And could Amtrak put REAL glass in the windows of any new cars. Photography is a waste of time with the current stuff.
> 
> 
> Guess again. I get very good pictures. It requires a little bit of patience, but you can take photographs without the glare.
> ...


Ya gets what ya pays for  .

And the TVs and pianos (!) were yanked out of the lounges when the train was privatised in the late 90s.

The atmosphere in the lounges is so cool nowadays that the passengers prefer to talk over their cocktails after sunset rather than watch movies.

And any international airline worth it's salt could tell Amtrak how to retrofit their rolling stock for seat back movies on demand. Well any international airline except American Airlines :angry: . Still using overhead screens to screen Jack Black 'comedies' must really go down well with a load of passengers out of Zurich.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can run a proper 1st class service attached to a regular scheduled service, Canada can do it, and Australia can do it - even South Africa can do it (but even I can't pay those bucks). Why can't the US do it.

Until they do I'm staying on the plane at Los Angeles - I've thrown too many hard earned (and deflated) dollars at Amtrak to be tempted back any time soon


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > > And could Amtrak put REAL glass in the windows of any new cars. Photography is a waste of time with the current stuff.
> ...


Well considering OTP of the Western LD trains has increased remarkably due to several factors, sleepers get many many perks over coach class pax as it is, and the price is within reason-- I'll stick with Amtrak and laugh at the people paying outrageous coach fares on airplanes to get movies in the back of their seats! What a waste... let's see, I betchya that the airlines are taking a loss on that service. I mean, has anybody considered how annoying a flashing movie is to the person sitting next to you? A three hour flight is one thing, a three day train venture is another.

And for all your muster, you failed to demonstrate a single train that actually uses this VOD technology that you believe is so easily implemented...


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## Konrad (Jun 21, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


A 14 hour trans-Pacific flight can rival a transcontinental journey in the discomfort stakes I can confidently assure you.

The seat back screens on the airlines have such a narrow field of vision that you have to get quite intimate with the next passenger to check what they're viewing. More annoying is the passenger who 'needs' the reading light on for the entire flight (you know who you are - you're usually in the seat in front of mine).

And $AU200 LAX-JFK with meals and wine and 300 channels of entertainment is hardly outrageous. My last trip from NYP-SFS cost over $1800 - at a conversion rate of 62 cents!

I can pay. I just want to pay for something worth paying the extra bucks for.

Until then I get back on QF107 at LAX, fly to New York, and Amtrak blows several thousand dollars (return).

At least I get three extra days at the Lincoln Centre and Broadway  .


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## caravanman (Jun 21, 2009)

My son is almost 16, I am 57. He seems to spend most of his time in front of some screen, be it TV, computer, ipod or xbox.. I spend a lot of my time trying to persuade him to enjoy "the real world" as I see it, with architecture, travel, and real human beings in it.. He would like a whole train of video games, like the TGV izap coach, I would NOT!

One persons great surroundings or trip is not for everyone, when it comes to designing most things, Mr Average* is the person most in the minds eye of the designer.

From my perspective, if Amtrak could make the trains run to time that would be a big plus. Not necesarily faster, just on time.

Yes, I know it's the railroads fault, not Amtraks.

Secondly, a fresh approach from Amtrak staff towards passengers. So many staff give the appearance of hating their jobs, and hating the passengers too.

I do understand that it is hard to motivate staff if they feel themselves to be part of a duff organisation..

Cleaning the inside of the trains and keeping them in better order, so the velcro on the curtains matches up, for example. I almost guarantee that if you board any long distance train in coach, and sit and look up between the top of the windows and the luggage rack, you will see several years of grime in a half inch layer of dirty fluff.

It wouldn't cost a fortune to clean, they could vacuum one coach at a time, employ someone at Chicago just to do that for 15 minutes before boarding the passengers. It *could* be done, if there was a will to do it..

I would be annoyed if I had paid $1800 to travel NY to SF too, because it is not a $1800 experience. However, I have enjoyed 12, 000 miles aboard trains on a single Amtrak 15 day pass for under $300 a year or two back.

Comparing chalk and cheese is a waste of hot air, the demands of Australian, Indian, European, Japanese, or Russian train services are all different from each other, and different from those of the USA too.

Vive la Difference!

Ed


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## jackal (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> And the GST helps to pay for our health system, so we don't mind (too much) paying it. The law in Australia requires the check-out price to be quoted on the price tag - so the price you see is the full price, not like the insane US situation where you have to calculate the final price yourself - and how often have I been caught and have to go diving into my wallet to find extra cash!


Slight diversion here--I used to think this was a good idea, but now I rather like the idea of "tax transparency" (my term). Digging for that extra change reminds you of how much the government is taking and serves to remind you to ensure your government is using your money in the best, most efficient way possible. (Ha! As if a government could ever do anything efficiently...)

In fact, I'm quite in favor of scrapping the national income tax and replacing it with a national sales tax NOT rolled into the posted price so EVERYONE can see just exactly how much their government is costing them. While we wait for that, I'd be 100% in favor of eliminating the practice of employers withholding taxes from their employees' paychecks and requiring people to make payments to the IRS. When you write that check (an antiquated process in and of itself, I know) for your $150 electric bill, you wince slightly and vow to turn the lights off more. When you write that check for tens of thousands of dollars on April 15 to Uncle Sam, or even when you write it for a few hundred or thousand every month, you wince slightly and vow to send people to Washington who will budget federal spending like your family's budget.

But I digress, and back to WHAT AMTRAK REALLY NEEDS...


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## AlanB (Jun 21, 2009)

caravanman said:


> Cleaning the inside of the trains and keeping them in better order, so the velcro on the curtains matches up, for example. I almost guarantee that if you board any long distance train in coach, and sit and look up between the top of the windows and the luggage rack, you will see several years of grime in a half inch layer of dirty fluff. It wouldn't cost a fortune to clean, they could vacuum one coach at a time, employ someone at Chicago just to do that for 15 minutes before boarding the passengers. It *could* be done, if there was a will to do it..


Actually Amtrak does perform a rather intensive cleaning of the cars. Perhaps each car needs to go through that process a bit more frequently than it does, but they do clean them.

Those of us at the Gathering last year actually had a chance to tour a Pacific Parlour car undergoing that process. They have an entire section of the yard set up where some 20 odd cars or so are on this line every day of the year undergoing this cleaning process. They drop the ceiling panels; open up all cabinets stick a big fan at one end of the upper level and another at one door on the lower level. The upper level fan blows air into the car, while the lower level sucks the air out of the car. Then employees in special suits with oxygen masks walk into the car with high pressure air hoses and literally blast the dirt out of the car.

The car then rolls further down the line where seats are cleaned, and replaced as needed, walls wiped down and other items are performed.

I'm not sure what other yards beyond LAX have this setup, although I do know that Hialeah has one. But Amtrak does clean these cars and quite thoroughly. The only question would seem to be do they need to be doing 30 or 40 at a time to get them through this process more times each year.


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## sunchaser (Jun 21, 2009)

AlanB said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> > Cleaning the inside of the trains and keeping them in better order, so the velcro on the curtains matches up, for example. I almost guarantee that if you board any long distance train in coach, and sit and look up between the top of the windows and the luggage rack, you will see several years of grime in a half inch layer of dirty fluff. It wouldn't cost a fortune to clean, they could vacuum one coach at a time, employ someone at Chicago just to do that for 15 minutes before boarding the passengers. It *could* be done, if there was a will to do it..
> ...


I've heard about this system before. Apparently there is one at Beech Grove too.

Just curious- did they also use a vacuum cleaner on the upholstery/carpets? Or could you tell if this other set up was pulling dirt/dust from the floors & upholstery?


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## AlanB (Jun 21, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > caravanman said:
> ...


Carpets get vacuumed at the end of each run, altough I suspect that during the intense cleaning it also gets done as the car is moved down the work line. What I described above is really for getting the dirt out of corners, nooks & crannies, and to get all the dust out of the air conditioning system.


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## alang (Jun 21, 2009)

A most interesting discussion; although my Amtrak experience is limited to several trips on the California Zephyr over the past few years I have come to enjoy my "vacation" with Amtrak; the journey has become the destination. Despite the constant delays I have found the staff and crews to be most courteous and attentive to the needs of the passengers. With limited experience, I would like to offer my thoughts on what Amtrak really needs.

1. Make the trains run on time. The delays are frustrating for all and and maybe more so for Amtrak. (Easier said than done but maybe putting people before profit would be good for all.)

2. Continue to provide affordable "Coach" transportation.

3. Invest in infrastructure and equipment. (Stimulate the economy?)

4. Increase the number of routes. (Establishing discontinued routes would be a good start.)

5. Hub-to-Hub "Bullet" Trains

I know that each one of these suggestions requires more government involvement but perhaps it says more about our society when we put people before profit and make the trains run on time. Yes, our taxes are going to go up, but they are anyway. I can justify a greater investment in Amtrak every time I ponder whether or not the airlines will someday (probably sooner than later) end up like the auto industry. Your responses are always appreciated!


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## Larry H. (Jun 21, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> Amtrak has a first class lounge on the Coast Starlight. I realize it's just one train but Amtrak is doing it.... and so far it has barely convinced congress to let them keep it because it barely justifies its costs. Now I know there are deeper issues then that... but lets be honest, the Coast Starlight will sell sleeper space weather it has a 1st class lounge or not. Just like the Zephyr, and the Chief... etc. What Amtrak has to do is see how it can justify the cost... things like providing meal service and open bar and pay-for wine tastings. Amtrak has to figure some things out before they can expand this to other trains. Does anyone on here have a job? Don't you know how many committees and boards new ideas have to go through before they even get seriously looked at? You can't expect new services over-night. I think Amtrak is seriously considering PPC type service on the Empire Builder... but they need to figure out WHAT they want to do... HOW they want to do it... AND THEN get the equipment for it!
> The same goes for wi-fi... Amtrak is trying it out on the Downeaster....
> 
> The same goes for Movies... Amtrak has tried it and it didn't show any increase of revenue.
> ...


Here we are yet again, trapped by the idea that rail service is a paying, profit making undertaking. No highway pays for it self, and no one in congress bitches about charging even more to have you drive on it. How we got in this trap of everything is a "has to make money" proposition is a sure way to kill real passenger rail service. Not many places really cover the cost of operations of trains. We can perhaps come close and that is fine. But I wish people here and Congress would stop using the monetary weapon for excuses to not provide the kind of service many of us expect and they promised to operate. We can throw money at every congress persons district for some study on "cow farts" or museums to some totally unknown person, on and on, but don't dare suggest that a Nation Wide Rail Passenger Service might actually do things that would make passengers trips more comfortable. Just think, right now congress and the president are sitting on over a trillon dollars in cash, all by the way from us, they don't earn a penny of it, and yet they act as though were not worthy of improvement, or if they aren't there are enough nay sayers here to fill a book.


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## Larry H. (Jun 21, 2009)

Alan

We often agree or can come close at times.. However as someone who's job often was to "See" dirt I can tell you than even with the steps they are taking if is pretty obvious that someone at amtrak is unable to determine when something is clean or just glossed over. One only has to look at the dirt in the corners of the restrooms to know that no one goes to any more than the most brief swab without effort to actually remove the dirt on the walls and edges. After a while that develops turns into that blackish looking grime so common on rail cars. I am sure its partly a time issue, a wage issue and a "who cares" issue. I would bet that who ever used to inspect the Santa Fe trains would find them as totally unsatisfactory now days. The women who complained about the roomettes condition was exactly correct. Its too bad that so many here will see a post where someone can't have privacy due to lousy maintenance and ordering of room curtains, duct taped toilet seats and dingy surrounds and some here are willing to dismiss it as wining basically. We have become to complacent to settle for what ever is run, rather than expect what you pay for. Amtrak could fix this instantly by demanding from inspectors or supervisors that cars be correctly cleaned before leaving the yards. Then of course they have to back that by the time and personnel to do it. Over the years due to funding things have gotten worse not better. Last time I took a Business class train half the seat backs were all torn and the seat head rest were coming apart. The rest room doors banged the whole trip, and the general look of the car was shabby. And for that your ask to pay premium fares. Someone needs to get their acts together..

Larry


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## sunchaser (Jun 21, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> Alan
> We often agree or can come close at times.. However as someone who's job often was to "See" dirt I can tell you than even with the steps they are taking if is pretty obvious that someone at amtrak is unable to determine when something is clean or just glossed over. One only has to look at the dirt in the corners of the restrooms to know that no one goes to any more than the most brief swab without effort to actually remove the dirt on the walls and edges. After a while that develops turns into that blackish looking grime so common on rail cars. I am sure its partly a time issue, a wage issue and a "who cares" issue. I would bet that who ever used to inspect the Santa Fe trains would find them as totally unsatisfactory now days. The women who complained about the roomettes condition was exactly correct. Its too bad that so many here will see a post where someone can't have privacy due to lousy maintenance and ordering of room curtains, duct taped toilet seats and dingy surrounds and some here are willing to dismiss it as wining basically. We have become to complacent to settle for what ever is run, rather than expect what you pay for. Amtrak could fix this instantly by demanding from inspectors or supervisors that cars be correctly cleaned before leaving the yards. Then of course they have to back that by the time and personnel to do it. Over the years due to funding things have gotten worse not better. Last time I took a Business class train half the seat backs were all torn and the seat head rest were coming apart. The rest room doors banged the whole trip, and the general look of the car was shabby. And for that your ask to pay premium fares. Someone needs to get their acts together..
> 
> Larry


In reality, many who clean for a living cut corners on the process, resulting in the grime pile up. If it someone's job to clean, IMHO, even if it looks clean, it all should be cleaned just as if it is dirty. You then would not have the grime issue.

Unfortunately, some cleaners spot clean, which adds to the pile up. And in bathrooms/showers it's even worse-you cannot see the germs, so you don't know if it's safe to touch anything. I don't think it has anything to do with cost. It comes from either not knowing how to do it right, or, rushing & not caring. It does not add alot of extra time to do it right the first time. But you can spend alot more time later having to scrub down the extra build up of grime.

The velcro issue is an easy fix. They could purchase self stick velcro dots, keep them in the SCA's room or transdorm, & fix it quick. Most stores that have sewing/household sections carry them. I'm bringing some along myself for that very reason.


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## Larry H. (Jun 21, 2009)

I agree, the cleaning issue is not a totally easy fix. The standard however should be adhered to and the current standard is too low. When I supervised the cleaning of stores as part of my job duties off and on, It was easy to see what was being missed and what wasn't. If I cleaned the area it was clean when I got done. When you hired a lot of people they would walk right past something and ignore it.. I often ask them that question of, "can't you see the dirt". Lets face it here its what that individual is being paid to do. I agree that often I am sure the powers that be have forced people, way to few most likely, to accomplish what a much larger crew would have done in the past. That needs to be fixed among the other issues that Amtrak will have to face as it grows and gets decent support. The days of saying "the cars are as good as we can afford to keep them" or its someone else's fault the curtains are made wrong needs to stop at once. No good company can operate that way, only a government one, and that is why we need to speak up for higher standards. After all it in the long run is us who is footing the bill though taxes and fares. (lets not take off on arguing the "it won't pay for it self routine here again" ). We already know that. However by making cars more cleanly and not discouraging the potential passenger base that is out there, adding more cars and giving better service it has to improve the bottom line. The reason some of the trains are recovering near there cost is because they are providing a service some one is willing to buy. Usually I see that those trains are ones that add a bit more to their amenities such as the Empire Builder. When it comes to cleaning, you just have to keep trying until you get the right people. Believe it or not there are still some people left who care about how things look and will do a good job, but they must be provided with the right tools and enough time to get the job done. So its a two way street, good workers, which means not keeping ones who won't do the job, and good supervision from on top.

Generally the way a company looks or a service looks is directly dependent on how the Manger perceives the necessity of the job. Some places I worked the stairs were rolling in dust bunnies and dirt all up the sides of the wall and corners. In fact it got so bad that a customer one day came in and presented the store manger with a can of ajax and offered to show him how to get the black off the porcelain sinks in the women's room. He was a case where he turned his head because the fellow that did the cleaning would call in sick for weeks if he forced him to do it right. So he just coasted. Another store the manger set the tone on a daily basis, he would enter the store on the lower level and walk tough various departments, fitting rooms , rest rooms and wipe his hand over counters and racks to see that they were clean.. Guess which store looked good all the time..


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Konrad said:
> ...


See bolded in my previous post quoted above...


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## catblue (Jun 21, 2009)

Amtrak could/should use steam cleaners? They are portable, easy, quick, very efficient, work on all surfaces and kill germs while cleaning. Hotels and restaurants should also in my opinion.


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## caravanman (Jun 21, 2009)

I am sure that trains are *supposed* to be cleaned and maintained, but we have to deal with facts, and believe our own eyes!

The 1st pic is of some duct tape repair hanging down from an overhead fitting in a lounge car.

The second is of that layer of dirt seen on and around a metal box section. viewed from my coach seat. The top of the window is on the right,with the brown luggage rack on the left. Loads of yukky dirty fluff to fall on the passengers!

I guess Amtrak need soap and water more than high tech fans, cos the fans just 'aint reaching all that dirt.. that is more than a few weeks dirt!!












I LOVE Amtrak travel, and my 35,000 miles proves that, but don't tell me the trains are well maintained!

Ed


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## VentureForth (Jun 21, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > To add to this fact:
> ...


Oh, I'd LOVE to go cross country at 79 MPH being pulled by a steamer! No helper loco, please.


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## VentureForth (Jun 21, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> Amtrak could fix this instantly by demanding from inspectors or supervisors that cars be correctly cleaned before leaving the yards. Then of course they have to back that by the time and personnel to do it.


I disagree. I think there is plenty of personnel and time to do a good job. They just can't seem to threaten employees to do a thorough job and can't fire those who refuse.


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## VentureForth (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> Ya gets what ya pays for  .
> And the TVs and pianos (!) were yanked out of the lounges when the train was privatised in the late 90s.
> 
> The atmosphere in the lounges is so cool nowadays that the passengers prefer to talk over their cocktails after sunset rather than watch movies.
> ...


No you don't. I paid $208 for 10 hours in a sleeper. I got no reading light, messed up velcro on my roomette curtains, no audio (I think these things have been refurbished since they yanked the audio features - did they EVER have audio in these rooms?), 2/3 of the buttons didn't work and a coffee machine that the SCA couldn't refill.

Sorry - but I've had better luck at a $100 hotel, though it didn't get me anywhere. I did get a hot breakfast, though.

Here's an idea! How about a jack to hook up your laptop/iPod/MP3 player audio to?


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## volkris (Jun 21, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> No highway pays for it self, and no one in congress bitches about charging even more to have you drive on it.


What? They most certainly do! Didn't you notice the huge debates about gas taxes lately? The Highway Trust Fund is in trouble, but they ***** so much about charging more that they can't find a solution!



> But I wish people here and Congress would stop using the monetary weapon for excuses to not provide the kind of service many of us expect and they promised to operate.


Unfortunately, people have to be paid for their services on the train, on the tracks, and in the factories that build the cars. That money has to come from somewhere, and so it is pulled out of the pockets of taxpayers if not voluntarily handed over by riders. Thus, funding is not some vague, academic, and optional concern; it's THE most important concern when deciding what services to offer! Only when there is the possibility of seeing cash is there the possibility of paying people to complete whatever plans might be laid.

Like it or not (and I certainly don't) the people, through their representatives in Congress, have decided that these other initiatives are more worthy of their financial support. We disagree, but it's not an issue of inappropriate use of finances as an excuse; it's an issue of poorly laid or expressed priorities.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 21, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak has a first class lounge on the Coast Starlight. I realize it's just one train but Amtrak is doing it.... and so far it has barely convinced congress to let them keep it because it barely justifies its costs. Now I know there are deeper issues then that... but lets be honest, the Coast Starlight will sell sleeper space weather it has a 1st class lounge or not. Just like the Zephyr, and the Chief... etc. What Amtrak has to do is see how it can justify the cost... things like providing meal service and open bar and pay-for wine tastings. Amtrak has to figure some things out before they can expand this to other trains. Does anyone on here have a job? Don't you know how many committees and boards new ideas have to go through before they even get seriously looked at? You can't expect new services over-night. I think Amtrak is seriously considering PPC type service on the Empire Builder... but they need to figure out WHAT they want to do... HOW they want to do it... AND THEN get the equipment for it!
> ...


I am not trapped by that idea... I am as I said in my post that you quoted, trying to look at things realistically. And let's just be honest here... do we really want our government spending millions to order 1st class lounges for trains that lose moeny? Is that really the best way to spend our tax dollars? OR... would it be a better idea for Amtrak to find a way to offer a first class lounge that can cover its own costs? If Amtrak can do this... then everyone wins... we can get more first class lounges, and Amtrak can not be seen as "wasting tax dollars on first class services." Again... it may take a little time.


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## sunchaser (Jun 21, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > TVRM610 said:
> ...



I'm just wondering. What's the difference between the Fed ( taxpayers) subsidsizing the Airlines/Airports which has First Class service & is obviously not making money & Amtrak, which also subsidizes the Airlines through taxes? Both are forms of transportation. It seems the real difference is the perception between the purposes of the two. Trains, for the most part seems to be viewed as a luxury item, for those who have plenty of money/time to waste. Airplanes seem to be considered a necessity, even though most people are not flying to Africa or other continents for business.

On trains, you have coach, business class & first class. On a plane, you have economy, business class & first class.

IMHO, it seems Amtrak is treated like a step child rather than a respected older part of the transportation family. I see no reason that Amtrak cannot have better cars, & a better level of first class service in respect to sleepers. I have not experienced Acela first class, however, if that was extended to sleepers, what a difference that could make!

And of course if more sleepers were added to each of the routes, each route would make more money!


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## Larry H. (Jun 21, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak could fix this instantly by demanding from inspectors or supervisors that cars be correctly cleaned before leaving the yards. Then of course they have to back that by the time and personnel to do it.
> ...


Let me propose that a member of congress or the president were to be taking that same car.. Do suppose that it would go out in the conditions mentioned? I bet your last dollar it wouldn't. The fix they are evidently in with Unions should be easily fixed since the ruling party supports them? Something is wrong when a job is not performed properly and yet ignored as in the photos presented. Every train is full of those examples of "neglect". I still contend that if from the top down the situation were to be addressed it could be. The same unions cleaned the rail roads cars, only difference now seems to be the inability of the management to take charge of it. Congress goes millions over in new office buildings featuring more and more luxurious surroundings. I bet they also figure out how to have them spotless for the public and serving fancy food to boot, only they pay a fraction of the real cost. Well heck, it sounds like Amtrak, only without the fancy surroundings and fine food.

The poster who mentioned that Amtrak is a Step Child is correct. We keep forgetting that our Government took it over to run, did someone think it would be with out cost? And of course we all pay for it. We all pay for the Highways too, but my point which was mistaken as that we do not have to pay a second time to use it. Greyhound runs on it as do all the truckers, they all pay taxes but no where near the cost of actually getting a highway built. Same for Amtrak customers, we pay a portion of what it cost to haul us around. Why should we expect that it would recover every penny spent, it isn't demanded of the other subsidized transportation forms.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 21, 2009)

AlanB said:


> While I'm not saying that GrandLuxe would have/could have been a multi-billion dollar enterprise, I suspect that the failure of GrandLuxe had more to do with the management of the company than lack of market. In fact, every company that Rader has run has gone belly up, from the Florida Fun Train to CRC to GrandLuxe.


I can't argue your point, Rader is a grand old idiot, but I'd still say the market is limited.



volkris said:


> The failure of GrandLuxe indicated that it couldn't cover its costs, just like Amtrak, and just like people on this board assert when they say no rail service can be self sufficient. You say this "first class" travel shouldn't be subsidized... but then there's no magic argument making it ok to subsidize spartan service but not "first class" (really, upgraded) service. In particular, BK's arguments make it MORE appropriate to subsidize a system with the upgrade many potential customers and a larger cross section of the population would (he claims) want.
> Certainly nobody in this discussion has disproven his claims, and I doubt anyone has the data to do so. A railfan's statement that he personally wouldn't want some feature is certainly not indication that the general public doesn't want it.


The public might want all these features. I don't doubt it. But what I sincerely doubt is that the general public wants to pay for it.



volkris said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > When was the last time you walked the consist of the EB, CZ, ect? Obviously quite awhile. Coach class is full of people going from coast to coast, the EB is constantly selling half of its seats from SEA/PDX and CHI, with much of the other half getting on and off in the short(er) term.
> ...


Congratulations. You have taken a statement out of context- AGAIN! You are fantastic at this. What are you, a reporter? I was talking about Amtrak's general system. What you are doing is equivlent to me saying people in the us are trying to diet more, and you point to a single person eating halavah as proof that I'm wrong. Sheesh.

Folks, back in the 70s Amtrak decided they were going to run an optimized and spartan system. The Superliners are designed, from the ground up, to maximize cost efficiency. Think about this for a second. Each bi-level Superliner coach holds people in similar pitch to a 44 seat coach. 3 Superliner coaches carry as many people, in similar comfort to, more than 5 Heritage 44 seat coaches. Each Superliner diner handles nearly 2 Heritage diners worth of passengers. Most heritage sleepers, regardless of configuration, handled 22 people. Most 10 single-person roomettes, and 6 two person bedrooms. The Superliners, fully booked to their total allowed capacity (which is higher than their recommended capacity) holds FORTY-NINE passengers. More than double.

The Sightseer lounge, in its original configuration, takes the place of about 3 domes worth of obervation capacity, as well as a private lounge and a bar. It provides the functionality of 3 cars and about 5 attendants, and does it on one with a total of two attendants.

Amtrak decided they were going to run a cost-optimized system. The only comparable system in nature is VIA Rail, which takes that high-content approach you vaunt so much. Amtrak has a much, MUCH higher farebox recovery rate.

In every age people will try to kill Amtrak, remove the sleepers, remove the diners, and remove the cafe. If the diners can come pretty close to breaking even- enough that playing with the math a little will make them break even- and the sleepers cover their costs, and the operating cost per passenger is no more than a few dollars- then maybe, just maybe, Amtrak will survive to even exist another day.

If they lose the hundreds of dollars a passenger VIA does, there will be no Amtrak. I'd rather have a spartan Amtrak then no Amtrak at all.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 21, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > Larry H. said:
> ...


Well I don't think there is difference... Amtrak owns and operates trains and train stations which have first class service including first class lounges. I definately do not view trains as a luxury item.. in fact I think that airlines are more of luxury than trains... since trains can serve more people at one time by taking people to multiple destinations.. whereas planes generally go point A to point B which sometimes makes sense.. but sometimes results in half-full airplanes wasting lots of money.

What i was specifically referring to is first class cars that exist only for 1st class passengers. That is not necessary, it is a luxury. I'm not against it... but I kinda think it would be good if cars at least paid for there operating expenses, especially if they are not necessary.

I think food service cars are necessary... but a first class lounge is luxury. that is just my humble opinion. I'm kinda digressing anyways here... I just kinda want to stand up a little bit for amtrak and say they are trying, and they are working to alot of these goals. It seems some people on here act like the people running amtrak are idiots.


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## sunchaser (Jun 21, 2009)

I agree that a first class lounge is not a necessity. But, it could be used to boost ridership. I don't get the impression that most people here act like Amtrak corporate or anyone else are idiots. I hear frustration in the postings. Most postings reflect intense frustration at the lack of what should be available as promised for what they pay for, and also how late the trains are.

If any other mode of transportation consistently performed that way, they would lose customers. And that is as it should be.

Trains, however, have a faithful following of many groups from all walks of life. Many have not given up on this mode of transportation. I applaud them for it.

I for one find it a reasonable alternative in our situation for travel to another state. And realize this, I haven't taken the train yet! Regardless of all the issues I have heard, we are still willing to try it at least once! My expectation is that even though there are some issues that could easily be solved that may stop others from riding again, we will end up joining with the rest of the 'railfans' that are here and ride, as many times as we can afford to. 

There is so much of our beautiful country to see!!!!


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## TVRM610 (Jun 22, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > sunchaser said:
> ...


Well first of all... Enjoy your first trip coming up!

Maybe its me being over-posessive.. as if Amtrak was my favorite child! Ha. Most of the members do not give me that impression at all.. just some of the posts now and then. And Amtrak is not perfect.. by any means.

I also have never ridden any LD service other than amtrak, so I have not seen how it "can be." I have, however, seriously looked into planning a trip on VIA rail.. and was WOWED by the prices in comparison to amtrak.


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## sunchaser (Jun 22, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with feeling protective about something-in this case the rich history of rail travel & all that it entails.

But I also can see from the posts there is some room for improvement. All one has to do is read a few threads on this board and see some of the same issues brought up regularly. I'm not saying Amtrak is bad or awful, but there are simple, some inexpensive things that can be done to improve/eliminate these issues.

And we know there are people that come from overseas to here just to ride our trains. Why? Because they like them! That is quite a statement in itself.

In a nutshell, since Amtrak is run by the government, Amtrak's standard should present a good reflection on our country-

because that is what Amtrak is to those who visit. Just as VIA rail will be a reflection on Canada & how they run it when you ride it.


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## Konrad (Jun 22, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > sunchaser said:
> ...


Correction - I used to like Amtrak until the standards did not compensate for the scenery (the reason I rode Amtrak), just how many cold showers, broken showers and unserviceable toilets does it take before you just give up and walk away (and I traveled in Amtrak's 'premium' accommodations). Amtrak is very good at driving away overseas travellers who have good reason (experience) to expect better.

And believe me, I warn everybody I meet who are headed your way just what to expect. It is not just my business that Amtrak has lost.


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## sunchaser (Jun 22, 2009)

I remember reading about your last trip-which proves my point. If those issues were fixed, & Amtrak improved upon their standards, they would have more first time & repeat passengers! Maybe win back some (like you) that have quit riding too. It's a sad thing when someone spends so much time & money to come from overseas to visit & have bad experiences over & over....I know some things are out of Amtrak's control, but there's a fairly long list of things that can be fixed-

some are just basics in attitude & service & caring about the passengers.


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## Larry H. (Jun 22, 2009)

Sadly this is exactly why I have consistently tried to point out where Amtrak has let it self go so to speak. Its been a slow decent into lowered expectations, lowered standards, and higher prices for less in return. This in anything but a government run operation would spell disaster.

To those who keep acting like simply wanting clean cars, food actually made mostly on board, toilets that flush, Doors that don't rattle and bang, windows that are clean, seats that aren't torn and worn out, crews that act like you have paid for a trip, and when paying higher fares one might expect a setting commensurate with the additional fare, get real.. Pride in operation is something that has been thrown out the window in the name of "pay as we go", which is a oxymoron at best.

My guess from reading these post still is that most of the defenders of poor service and lack of equipment are from a generation of "everyones the same" and no one does better or worse teaching that pervades the schools and colleges today. Those of us who know what made a train a wonderful way to travel are mostly dismissed as unrealistic. Well it was the standard for service on the rails for most of railroading history, people from around the world should not be telling others how sad or system is. If that is the case, then it should be obvious to some of you that something is not right.

I am not condemning Amtrak, I like Amtrak. Its kind of like being a parent, you try to nudge children in the right direction because you have been there and know how the world works.


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## Larry H. (Jun 22, 2009)

Sun Chaser,

Your point is the very one that is so aggravating.. And one which I wrote several times about to the Customer Service Rep. I met on board the Coast Starlight last year. My point was exactly your point, its one thing to have an issue present it self, its quite another to have the exact same issue present it self for over 10 or 20 years with seemingly no redress. Those toilets that don't work at high altitude were one of those pointed out. The dissatisfaction with the various role outs of substandard dining and food products, lack of lounges, were another. That is why I still feel it needs to be tacked from the top down.


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## transit54 (Jun 22, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> Sadly this is exactly why I have consistently tried to point out where Amtrak has let it self go so to speak. Its been a slow decent into lowered expectations, lowered standards, and higher prices for less in return. This in anything but a government run operation would spell disaster.
> To those who keep acting like simply wanting clean cars, food actually made mostly on board, toilets that flush, Doors that don't rattle and bang, windows that are clean, seats that aren't torn and worn out, crews that act like you have paid for a trip, and when paying higher fares one might expect a setting commensurate with the additional fare, get real.. Pride in operation is something that has been thrown out the window in the name of "pay as we go", which is a oxymoron at best.
> 
> My guess from reading these post still is that most of the defenders of poor service and lack of equipment are from a generation of "everyones the same" and no one does better or worse teaching that pervades the schools and colleges today. Those of us who know what made a train a wonderful way to travel are mostly dismissed as unrealistic. Well it was the standard for service on the rails for most of railroading history, people from around the world should not be telling others how sad or system is. If that is the case, then it should be obvious to some of you that something is not right.
> ...


I think there's a difference between having working equipment in good condition and advocating that Amtrak really needs to invest in a higher level of amenities. In fact, I worry that focusing on the little will serve as a distraction to the former (that being said, I think a MAJOR exception to this is food service). I think everyone agrees that Amtrak needs to bring its fleet back to a state of good repair. I'm hoping that the repairs coming out of Beach Grove will begin to help with this a little, freeing up strains on existing equipment that prevents it from being taken out of service for an overhaul at a regular interval.

I'm not sure whether the issue is the level of funding, the shortage of equipment or something else, but it absolutely needs to change. I don't get to get out on LD trains all that much, but the pictures that someone posted are pretty telling.

Really, I think Amtrak's short term focus needs to be something like this:

1) Bring its fleet to a state of good repair and cleanliness

2) Ensure an acceptable level of food service across all trains (including corridor service - it's absurd that I need to buy decent food in advance for an eight hour Vermonter ride and my father had similar complaints when we rode the Maple Leaf).

3) Roll out basic additional amenities that would attract large numbers of additional travelers. For instance, every seat should have a power outlet. There's no excuse for not having addressed this yet, especially without on board entertainment. Since I mostly ride in Amfleets, this is never a problem, but I would ride much less if the trains near me did not have a power outlet at every set of seats. I think on-board WiFi, especially in corridor settings, is another one of these.

This goes without even addressing the customer service issues, which I think need to come before everything. Now, I've never had a service issue on board Amtrak, but clearly plenty of people have. Amtrak needs to have a culture of customer service above all else, and actively weed out employees who don't meet that level. When I worked at JetBlue, the attitude was, "We aren't in the airline business. We're in the customer service business and we just happen to fly planes." How you develop that kind of culture within a preexisting organization, however, I don't know.


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## sunchaser (Jun 22, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> Sun Chaser,
> Your point is the very one that is so aggravating.. And one which I wrote several times about to the Customer Service Rep. I met on board the Coast Starlight last year. My point was exactly your point, its one thing to have an issue present it self, its quite another to have the exact same issue present it self for over 10 or 20 years with seemingly no redress. Those toilets that don't work at high altitude were one of those pointed out. The dissatisfaction with the various role outs of substandard dining and food products, lack of lounges, were another. That is why I still feel it needs to be tacked from the top down.


I agree with you! Management must take the intiative to correct these issues. The staff on the train can help to correct cleanliness issues, & their attitudes should change if they see Management providing a safer, better work environment for them & passengers too.

I think it takes a special type of person to hear the same complaints, over & over from pax, & then see no improvements to not quit that job.

That's how I view the staff on the trains. They are on the front lines representing Amtrak. They usually hear it all firsthand. Not fun.


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