# Unattached Furniture in Passenger Cars



## OlympianHiawatha (Aug 31, 2011)

When did the FRA mandate Amtrak do away with loose or unattached seats and other furniture items in cars? Does this mandate also apply to Privates?


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 31, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> When did the FRA mandate Amtrak do away with loose or unattached seats and other furniture items in cars? Does this mandate also apply to Privates?


Interesting choice of words. :lol:

I'm curious about this as well. Although I've only ridden _The Canadian_ once so far I found the traditional movable furniture much more appealing. Amtrak has an advertisement with a romantic nighttime table scene in silhouette that seems like it's straight out of a 1950's movie, but would look a lot more like a McDonald's bench seat with the lights turned on. You'd also be hard pressed to sit alone with your lover, at least outside of the rather unromantic breakfast hours. Meanwhile VIA has the real deal with traditional seats and table service that really set the mood where it belongs. You can sit alone with your girl if you want and when it gets dark you can go where they turn the lights off and see an entire sky full of stars that only exists in pamphlets on Amtrak.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 31, 2011)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> When did the FRA mandate Amtrak do away with loose or unattached seats and other furniture items in cars? Does this mandate also apply to Privates?


When the number of lawyers exceeded the number of people that ride Amtrak! :help: (apologies to our attorney members! ^_^ )

Seriously, Safety is important, but Ive always thought that Major League Baseball, with it's Anti-Trust Exemption had it right, let the Ticket Buyer Beware has worked for over 100 years, and a Baseball Stadium can be a Dangerous place also! Dont see too many ambulance chasers hanging out @ Baseball Stadiums druming up business! As Chris said, why not look @ VIA, they have the best of both worlds with their old time cars and the Joy that it brings their riders! :wub:

The Cradle to the Grave NannyState that has been happening here for the past 50 years has taken alot of Joy out of lots of things that used to be a real adventure and also lots of fun! People like Ralph Nader (notan Engineer, he's a Lawyer!) got Rich and Famous by crying Wolf, thus we have overly engineered and costly things that are made in China, one of the most unsafe places on earth!


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## PRR 60 (Aug 31, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > When did the FRA mandate Amtrak do away with loose or unattached seats and other furniture items in cars? Does this mandate also apply to Privates?
> ...


Wow - I don't like the sound of that!

Discussion board laugh of the day!


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 31, 2011)

jimhudson said:


> The Cradle to the Grave NannyState that has been happening here for the past 50 years has taken alot of Joy out of lots of things that used to be a real adventure and also lots of fun! People like Ralph Nader (notan Engineer, he's a Lawyer!) got Rich and Famous by crying Wolf, thus we have overly engineered and costly things that are made in China, one of the most unsafe places on earth!


While Nader is most certainly famous among the domestic over-forty crowd he's also anything _but_ rich. Some of his most famous activism resulted in little or no direct enrichment and much of what he did accumulate became the seed money for independent groups he helped found but is no longer in control of or associated with. Nader remains a staunch idealist with an aversion to compromise and a perspective that defies simple deconstruction. I actually consider him something of a personal hero of mine. As recently alluded to in another thread "hero" is a term I do not use lightly or embrace easily. For an interesting primer on Nader's methods and motivations I recommend the documentary _*An Unreasonable Man*_.

Returning to the topic at hand, I don't doubt that having McDonald's style plastic benches may in fact reduce injuries and even save lives in the case of a collision or derailment. However, my personal view is that informed consent should be enough to allow Amtrak to offer more conventional furniture to those who would _choose_ to make use of it. I'm not a proponent of an overly protective "nanny state" any more than I'm a proponent of a completely indifferent "frontier justice" state. I believe there is a reasonable middle ground where we can be protected from needlessly reckless and destructive decisions of others while still being able to choose our own destiny when the impact of our choices is unlikely to cause harm to others. That's not to say we should tolerate the absurd antics of dopamine deficient train monkeys such as those featured in the recent stunt video thread, just that allowing for personal risk by _informed_ choice should remain an option when it doesn't strictly conflict with the needs and goals of society at large.


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## jis (Aug 31, 2011)

I guess one of the problems with "informed consent" is that as soon as something goes wrong, the first thing that many "informed consenters" try to do is get their previously granted "informed consent" removed, using all kinds of specious arguments and legal maneuvering, making it less than attractive a proposition for outfits that have to deal with such go the extra mile.

OTOH some of the most bizarre level of more or less uninformed consent seems to work fine, as for example in the crap that is written in the fine print of any average EULA. For that matter how many people even have any vague idea of what they are agreeing to in the act of purchasing their rail or air ticket? So I guess ones mileage may vary.

I do agree with Texas about Nader. I think his original action abut auto safety was hgly consequential in a very positive way. Some of his later campaigns were somewhat dubious though.


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## leemell (Aug 31, 2011)

Texas Sunset said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > The Cradle to the Grave NannyState that has been happening here for the past 50 years has taken alot of Joy out of lots of things that used to be a real adventure and also lots of fun! People like Ralph Nader (notan Engineer, he's a Lawyer!) got Rich and Famous by crying Wolf, thus we have overly engineered and costly things that are made in China, one of the most unsafe places on earth!
> ...


My main complaint with Nader is that he made his bones on the back of a good automobile that was just not the same a the usual American car, namely the Corvair. It was a rear wheel drive rear engine that handled differently, but not any more unsafe that other autos. Even Juan Fangio testified in court for the Corvair. Nader was the root cause of the the ending of the Corvair. I don't mind when someone points out flaws, but when it is just outside average experience, we lose that capability. Another example result of this "safe at all cost" mentality is the restaurant "sharp steak knife" that isn't. Nader is a lawyer and not an engineer and frequently got it wrong, but rode it for the political gain. He was right occasionally, but not nearly enough in my opinion.

The plastic seats in the SSL for example are uncomfortable, they could be safe and comfortable, but need to be redesigned.


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## TVRM610 (Aug 31, 2011)

Regardless of FRA mandates, shouldn't Amtrak WANT to do the safest thing anyway? I mean, it's very obvious to me how booths in the dining and lounge cars could save lives in the event of a major accident. Just keeping the aisle way clear alone could save lives, let alone the idea of chairs flying around if the car were to turn. It seems to me that the OBVIOUS choice is to bolt everything down.

Now having said that, I've had the chance to ride in some amazing private cars including the UP Heritage set, and yes there is a romance about those trains and the way they were set up. I totally understand that, but I would prefer Amtrak take a "safety first" approach.


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## jis (Aug 31, 2011)

Going back to the OP's question, I believe that the wheels were set in motion to start making car interiors safer in accidents involving overturning etc. starting at the Chase MD collision. The partitions in the luggage racks also originated from studies following that event, and eventually led to completely enclosed luggage bins as in Acelas. I believe (but may be wrong) that is now a Tier II requirement.

Frankly getting hit by a flying chair or table during a collision could kill someone who could otherwise have lived. So there is a logic to it that I at least can grock.


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## Ryan (Aug 31, 2011)

At the risk of 2 on topic posts, the NTSB report on the Crescent City derailment of the Auto Train sheds some light.

The report (PDF Link) can be found here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2003/RAR0302.pdf

Discussion and a picture of the movable folding chairs can be found starting on the bottom of page 36 (of the document, which is actually page 44 on the PDF).



> Investigators could find no regulatory requirements that specifically addressprovisions for folding armchairs in passenger railcars. Regulatory requirements
> 
> addressing the category "interior fittings and surfaces," which includes passenger railcar
> 
> ...


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