# Former Wisconsin Talgos



## DSS&A (Jan 30, 2018)

Hi,

It was reported that one of the Wisconsin Talgo trainsets is on the move to Chicago.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=166855


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## Ryan (Jan 31, 2018)

Photos of them on the BookFace as well. Chicago, Pueblo, then up to the NW...


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 31, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Photos of them on the BookFace as well. Chicago, Pueblo, then up to the NW...


Source on final destination please. Havent see anything other than Pueblo. Just wondering how solid.


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## keelhauled (Jan 31, 2018)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Photos of them on the BookFace as well. Chicago, Pueblo, then up to the NW...
> ...


https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=FRA-2018-0005-0001&attachmentNumber=1&contentType=pdf



> There are currently two Series 8 Talgo train sets that were constructed and put into storage at Amtrak's Beech Grove Facility prior to 49 CFR 238.131 going into effect, and have never been in service. In order to support the train service owned by the Washington State Department of Transportation, Amtrak desires to now put these two Series 8 Talgo train sets in service.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Jan 31, 2018)

keelhauled said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


To be fair, that letter is a year old. Not saying they arent headed to the Northwest (because that would be a logical thing to do), but the request in Amtraks letter isnt related to the derailment.


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## keelhauled (Jan 31, 2018)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> To be fair, that letter is a year old. Not saying they arent headed to the Northwest (because that would be a logical thing to do), but the request in Amtraks letter isnt related to the derailment.


True. I figured that since it was stamped received earlier this month that it was a precursor to this move, but it definitely doesn't mean that the move happened because of the derailment (and really this whole line of discussion should probably get spun off into a separate thread).


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## PRR 60 (Feb 1, 2018)

Pure speculation, but after the #501 wreck, Amtrak pledged to make Oregon and Washington whole (in stark contrast to the aftermath of the Cambers Bay #506 incident when Amtrak wrecked the train, and then told the state they would have to pay for Amtrak replacement equipment). The Chambers Bay wreck last July took an Oregon-owned set out of service, and this wreck nailed a Washington-owned set.

The two Wisconsin sets may have enough differences from the two Oregon sets that testing at Pueblo is needed. Rumor has it that the sets will then go back to Talgo in Milwaukee for some mods (maybe converting one or more cars to business class?), then out to the PNW to free conventional equipment, add the set needed for the additional round trip promised with the bypass and provide some margin for maintenance. As I said, pure speculation, but with the PNW short Talgos, and two sitting idle in Indiana for a couple of years and now moving around, it's possible to connect the dots.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 1, 2018)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> > Just-Thinking-51 said:
> ...


That letter is not a year old. It is from January 2, 2018. The letter typo'd 2017 for 2018 - post New Year hangover. Look at the received stamp date.


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## Ryan (Feb 1, 2018)

Sharp eye, good catch.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Feb 1, 2018)

Good point. I saw the date on the letter, but missed the received date stamp.


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## spidersfan351 (Feb 1, 2018)

FWIW, I just saw a video of the Wisconsin Talgo sets pass La Plata, MO last night on their way to Pueblo, so it would appear this is in motion.


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## Agent (Feb 1, 2018)

Here's a video of the special move at Cameron, Illinois by Bobby Harvey Video Productions.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 1, 2018)

For the two Talgo set to be used in the PNW money is needed. Some of those funds will go to Wisconsin, if I recall correctly. Just missing the dots. Or maybe the testing is need in CO first.


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## VentureForth (Feb 1, 2018)

Still one of the ugliest cab cars in the US. Unfortunately, the Charger doesn't help, even if there was a baggage car with the "sweep" in between.


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## neroden (Feb 1, 2018)

Wisconsin never paid for the Talgos, thanks to Scott Walker. They're still owned by Talgo. Talgo closed its Wisconsin operations completely, thanks to Scott Walker. (Apparently they reopened in late 2016 to refurbish some LA Metro subway cars, though.) In the settlement of Talgo's lawsuit against Scott Walker for breach of contract, it was agreed that Wisconsin could receive up to 30% of any payment for a successful sale of the trains, but not more than $9.75 million (and there may also have been a time limit on that). Wisconsin receives 30% of a net amount *after* Talgo's costs of storage and marketing are subtracted, so I'm guessing they won't be getting much if anything (Talgo has been marketing the cars for years and storing them for years).

I don't know whether Amtrak or the states of Washington/Oregon are purchasing the Talgos -- I'm going to guess Amtrak is doing so to compensate Washington and Oregon for the losses caused by the crashes. I'm pretty sure they're not paying list price.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 1, 2018)

Thanks for the clarification.

Not unhappy with idea that Wisconsin will be missing out on a windfall of funds.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 1, 2018)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Not unhappy with idea that Wisconsin will be missing out on a windfall of funds.


Unfortunately, missing out on those funds was the decision the people of Wisconsin made when they elected Mr. Walker and his people into office.


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## west point (Feb 1, 2018)

Its official the 2 Talgos are going to the PNW


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## keelhauled (Feb 1, 2018)

west point said:


> Its official the 2 Talgos are going to the PNW


Well now I've heard that they're going to the PNW, to Milwaukee, and to Beech Grove again. Just need to hear that LOSSAN is taking them and I think we'll have covered all the options...


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## Hotblack Desiato (Feb 2, 2018)

keelhauled said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > Its official the 2 Talgos are going to the PNW
> ...


Well, there was talk about that a while back, as well as a rumor that Michigan was interested in them.


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## WoodyinNYC (Feb 2, 2018)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> > west point said:
> ...


This is now a settled question.

On Railroad.net, bostontrainguy posted this info he found from the Federal Register online:

Amtrak plans to lease two articulated Series 8 trainsets from Tren Articulado Ligero Goicoechea Oriol (Talgo) to support its Cascade intercity service.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2018-0 ... -01959.pdf


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## PRR 60 (Feb 2, 2018)

This is the split topic concerning the former Wisconsin Talgo trainsets heading for the Pacific Northwest. The original topic on the Cascades #501 derailment can be found HERE.


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## WoodyinNYC (Feb 2, 2018)

Talgo must be very happy, going back where they are and will be appreciated. LOL. They've had a very good relationship with the Cascades for 20 years or so, but were treated shabbily by Scott Walker and the Koch Brothers. Hope Talgo doesn't take a loss on these trains after all the mess.


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## neroden (Feb 3, 2018)

OK, neat little detail there: if Amtrak is *leasing* the trains from Talgo, Wisconsin gets *nothing*, because their deal was that they got a percentage of any *sale*, and a lease isn't a sale.


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## akbrian (Feb 3, 2018)

Are the existing PNW Cascades Talgo cars long term leases, or are they owned outright?


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## neroden (Feb 3, 2018)

Purchases, I believe.


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## Tarm (Feb 3, 2018)

neroden said:


> Wisconsin never paid for the Talgos, thanks to Scott Walker. They're still owned by Talgo. Talgo closed its Wisconsin operations completely, thanks to Scott Walker. (Apparently they reopened in late 2016 to refurbish some LA Metro subway cars, though.) In the settlement of Talgo's lawsuit against Scott Walker for breach of contract, it was agreed that Wisconsin could receive up to 30% of any payment for a successful sale of the trains, but not more than $9.75 million (and there may also have been a time limit on that). Wisconsin receives 30% of a net amount *after* Talgo's costs of storage and marketing are subtracted, so I'm guessing they won't be getting much if anything (Talgo has been marketing the cars for years and storing them for years).
> 
> I don't know whether Amtrak or the states of Washington/Oregon are purchasing the Talgos -- I'm going to guess Amtrak is doing so to compensate Washington and Oregon for the losses caused by the crashes. I'm pretty sure they're not paying list price.


To this day I can not understand why people on this board give a free pass to WI Gov Doyle. He had the money and the opportunity to contract and fund both the Madison train and the Talgo trainsets. He chose to defer the options to Walker who killed it. I'm getting tired of this selective outrage.


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## neroden (Feb 4, 2018)

First of all, the Talgo trainsets *were* contracted and Walker actually *broke* the contract. It is perhaps understandable that Doyle did not expect Walker to be a contract-breaker.

Second, Doyle quit politics and is widely forgotten. His dithering was a problem, but really being annoyed about it isn't going to do anything now. That cretin Scott Walker is still Governor of Wisconsin and is still trashing the state.

Does that answer your question?


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## Tarm (Feb 4, 2018)

I'm glad that the Talgo trainsets were constructed and I'm glad that they will finally be put to use. As a resident of the State of Wisconsin I'm sad that they will not be used here. As a passenger rail enthusiast I will continue to promote passenger rail among my fellow citizens and support elected officials that further those goals. In the give and take of a democratic system you win some and you lose some.


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## grover5995 (Feb 4, 2018)

Tarm said:


> I'm glad that the Talgo trainsets were constructed and I'm glad that they will finally be put to use. As a resident of the State of Wisconsin I'm sad that they will not be used here. As a passenger rail enthusiast I will continue to promote passenger rail among my fellow citizens and support elected officials that further those goals. In the give and take of a democratic system you win some and you lose some.


When Hiawatha Corridor service is upgraded, perhaps a couple trips could continue beyond Milwaukee to Madison plus an additional train to Minneapolis. If WI does not want to be in the passenger train business, maybe it is time to consider a private operator like Virgin Rail.


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## jis (Feb 4, 2018)

grover5995 said:


> Tarm said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad that the Talgo trainsets were constructed and I'm glad that they will finally be put to use. As a resident of the State of Wisconsin I'm sad that they will not be used here. As a passenger rail enthusiast I will continue to promote passenger rail among my fellow citizens and support elected officials that further those goals. In the give and take of a democratic system you win some and you lose some.
> ...


And if Wisconsin is not going to fund the operation, why on earth would Virgin Rail want to sink their money into it. The typical level of ticket prices that one can get in the Midwest is nowhere near anything that would fully support an operation, so someone will have to make up the difference plus a profit margin to interest a prudent business operation like Virgin Rail, as the British do in the UK.


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## Anderson (Feb 4, 2018)

neroden said:


> First of all, the Talgo trainsets *were* contracted and Walker actually *broke* the contract. It is perhaps understandable that Doyle did not expect Walker to be a contract-breaker.
> 
> Second, Doyle quit politics and is widely forgotten. His dithering was a problem, but really being annoyed about it isn't going to do anything now. That cretin Scott Walker is still Governor of Wisconsin and is still trashing the state.
> 
> Does that answer your question?


Let's add Obama waiting until October with the money to try and use it as an "election bribe" for the voters in those states. If the grants had been made in June, there's a pretty good chance (IMHO at least) that things would have been far enough along to avoid this. Doyle at least had the defense that he was deferring to the will of the voters (since Walker had made a big stink about this). The 3Cs and Florida didn't have this excuse, however...

And the problem is ultimately that Amtrak has the rights to run operations which a third party doesn't. Just ask Iowa Pacific (or WashDot, for that matter).


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## cirdan (Feb 5, 2018)

keelhauled said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > Its official the 2 Talgos are going to the PNW
> ...


Strange isn't it, how the pendulum swings between nobody wants them and everybody wants them.


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## jmx153 (Feb 7, 2018)

akbrian said:


> Are the existing PNW Cascades Talgo cars long term leases, or are they owned outright?


Not sure who owns the older series 7 trainsets, but I read somewhere that the 2 new series 8 trainsets are owned by ODOT (Oregon Department of Transportation) I think I also read that there was some sort of discount because ODOT partnered with Wisconsin at the time the deal was made with Talgo.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 7, 2018)

Tarm said:


> To this day I can not understand why people on this board give a free pass to WI Gov Doyle. He had the money and the opportunity to contract and fund both the Madison train and the Talgo trainsets. He chose to defer the options to Walker who killed it. I'm getting tired of this selective outrage.


I'll see your selective outrage, and raise you a false equivalency?


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## Triley (Feb 11, 2018)

Was looking at some pics posted by the Talgo tech riding with the equipment.

Can't want to have the at least the first set back in service! We're also hoping to have the Jefferson set back in service within the next few months as well

Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## Blackwolf (Feb 11, 2018)

Triley said:


> Was looking at some pics posted by the Talgo tech riding with the equipment.
> 
> Can't want to have the at least the first set back in service! We're also hoping to have the Jefferson set back in service within the next few months as well
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app


What was the final estimate of damage to Mt. Jefferson?


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## Triley (Feb 11, 2018)

Blackwolf said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > Was looking at some pics posted by the Talgo tech riding with the equipment.
> ...


No idea. Way beyond my pay grade! 
Sent from my SM-G955U using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## Blackwolf (Feb 11, 2018)

Triley said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Triley said:
> ...


Hahaha!


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## Dutchrailnut (Feb 12, 2018)

So the Talgo is on its way back from TTC to Chicago and on to Beech grove for storage .

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4485695


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## Ryan (Feb 12, 2018)

Dutchrailnut said:


> on to Beech grove for storage


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## Triley (Feb 12, 2018)

Dutchrailnut said:


> So the Talgo is on its way back from TTC to Chicago and on to Beech grove for storage .
> 
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4485695


Go back and look at the most recent posts. Of course I can't say anything concrete, but... Lets just say that plans are for them to not be sitting much longer, from what I've been told by sources.


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## bretton88 (Feb 13, 2018)

If I've been reading things right, they're going to beech Grove only until the FRA approves the necessary waivers for PNW service.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Maglev (Feb 13, 2018)

As I understand it, these trains do not have Business Class. Perhaps they are being sent to Beech Grove for modification?


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## DevalDragon (Feb 14, 2018)

Blackwolf said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> > Was looking at some pics posted by the Talgo tech riding with the equipment.
> ...


Whatever it cost new, because it's not repairable.

Amtrak owes Washington State quite a chunk of change because they destroyed a new Charger and Talgo Trainset that did not belong to them.


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## jis (Feb 14, 2018)

Considering how pissed off Washington and Oregon have been with Amtrak even with their handling of the first accident, it is quite understandable that Amtrak will bend over backwards into a pretzel to make things good as much as they can.


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## PVD (Feb 14, 2018)

What they actually owe them is subject to the agreements between Amtrak and the state, whether the state has them insured, and in any case depreciated or actual cash value rather than replacement cost is more likely to be a legal obligation in a typical contract of this type. Moral obligations have little to do with a case like this.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 14, 2018)

DevalDragon said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> > Triley said:
> ...


Mt. Jefferson was not destroyed, though. Just damaged. Amtrak won't be needing to pay for a future trainset there.

Mt. Adams was destroyed.


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## west point (Feb 14, 2018)

With the one set going back to BEE maybe the title of this thread is threatened ?


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 15, 2018)

How long is the testing segment, the Beech Grove mods and FRA approval? Trying to estimate the earliest possible arrival date.


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## KnightRail (Feb 15, 2018)

The set that went on the field trip is now back at Beech Grove and the Charger is making trips on the Hiawatha.


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## Dutchrailnut (Feb 15, 2018)

only reason the set went to pueblo was for curve testing and interaction with the charger, a test done to conclude some of derailment data of train 501.

the door light waiver had nothing to do with it .


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 15, 2018)

Sounds like the title should be changed to "Former Wisconsin Talgos Going Back Into Storage".


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## jis (Feb 15, 2018)

Is it to go into storage or for modification work to make them suitable for PNW? Just wondering.


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## Trogdor (Feb 15, 2018)

My interpretation is that the move to Pueblo and back is unrelated to any potential PNW operation.


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## frequentflyer (Feb 22, 2018)

How much does it cost the PNW for a set of Talgos compared to a set of six or so Siemens cars?


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## TinCan782 (Feb 22, 2018)

VentureForth said:


> Still one of the ugliest cab cars in the US. Unfortunately, the Charger doesn't help, even if there was a baggage car with the "sweep" in between.


Looks like something out of "Cars"!


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## Metra Electric Rider (Feb 23, 2018)

frequentflyer said:


> How much does it cost the PNW for a set of Talgos compared to a set of six or so Siemens cars?


I realize I probably sound idiotic saying this (and probably pedantic too) but I would think part of the attractiveness of the Talgo's is that they match what's already in service and they are available - are there Siemens that would be ready quickly? I'll let somebody actually knowledgeable speak to the cost.


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## VT Hokie (Feb 23, 2018)

Plus the Talgos' tilt capability is actually used to maintain the Cascades schedule.


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## grover5995 (Nov 24, 2018)

grover5995 said:


> When Hiawatha Corridor service is upgraded, perhaps a couple trips could continue beyond Milwaukee to Madison plus an additional train to Minneapolis. If WI does not want to be in the passenger train business, maybe it is time to consider a private operator like Virgin Rail.


With the defeat of Gov Walker, maybe there is hope for improved passenger rail service in the Badger State.  Virgin Rail is already taking over Brightline operations in Florida and buying into ExpressWest between LasVegas and Southern California.


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## grover5995 (Nov 24, 2018)

neroden said:


> First of all, the Talgo trainsets *were* contracted and Walker actually *broke* the contract. It is perhaps understandable that Doyle did not expect Walker to be a contract-breaker.
> 
> Second, Doyle quit politics and is widely forgotten. His dithering was a problem, but really being annoyed about it isn't going to do anything now. That cretin Scott Walker is still Governor of Wisconsin and is still trashing the state.
> 
> Does that answer your question?


With the recent defeat of Gov. Walker :lol: , proposed service from MILW to Madison could become a reality soon!


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## PRR 60 (Nov 24, 2018)

Topic title changed removing reference to Pacific Northwest use.


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## Anthony V (Nov 24, 2018)

grover5995 said:


> With the recent defeat of Gov. Walker :lol: , proposed service from MILW to Madison could become a reality soon!


LOL Where's the funding for such a project going to come from? The funds Walker rejected are long gone and have been spent elsewhere. This project is likely never going to happen until we have a WW3 and the end of the human race happens.


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## jis (Nov 24, 2018)

grover5995 said:


> Virgin Rail is already taking over Brightline operations in Florida and buying into ExpressWest between LasVegas and Southern California.


No Virgin Rail (sic) is not doing anything of the sort. In fact there is nothing called Virgin Rail.

Brightline is rebranding itself as Virgin Trains USA, and the Virgin Group (through a subsidiary with an unheard of name that has no Virgin in it) is taking a 10-15% stake in this company. It will still be vastly majority owned by the Fortress Group, actually it is specifically stated that Fortress will own enough of it to maintain full control of the Board, and the management remains the same as at present.


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## neroden (Nov 27, 2018)

Virgin Trains USA is also proposing an IPO FWIW


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## jis (Nov 28, 2018)

neroden said:


> Virgin Trains USA is also proposing an IPO FWIW


IPO of a small portion of the overall company as I understand it from reading one of the more convoluted proposal for public offering I have read in a while :unsure:


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## milest303 (Mar 12, 2019)

The news WI governor seems interested in improving Hiawatha service (https://www.wpr.org/evers-budget-includes-45m-expand-rail-service-between-milwaukee-chicago)

Anybody think there's a chance of them buying back the Talgo sets that were meant for this?


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## Eric S (Mar 12, 2019)

My guess - exceedingly unlikely. I think that ship (using Talgo trainsets in the Midwest) has sailed.

If the single-level Siemens coaches already in production for other Midwest (and California) trains work out, I could imagine a follow-up order to acquire equipment for Hiawatha trainsets (as well as allowing expanded Midwest service). But using Talgo trainsets would require some sort of Talgo-specific maintenance facility - that's what ended up being the sticking point with the WI legislature the first time around.

EDIT: I should also add that it remains to be seen how receptive the legislature will be to the governor's proposal to put state funds toward an expansion of Hiawatha service.


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## tim49424 (Mar 12, 2019)

Eric S said:


> My guess - exceedingly unlikely. I think that ship (using Talgo trainsets in the Midwest) has sailed.
> 
> If the single-level Siemens coaches already in production for other Midwest (and California) trains work out, I could imagine a follow-up order to acquire equipment for Hiawatha trainsets (as well as allowing expanded Midwest service). But using Talgo trainsets would require some sort of Talgo-specific maintenance facility - that's what ended up being the sticking point with the WI legislature the first time around.
> 
> EDIT: I should also add that it remains to be seen how receptive the legislature will be to the governor's proposal to put state funds toward an expansion of Hiawatha service.


Does the Talgo factory even exist anymore?  I thought I'd heard after the Scott Walker/Talgo debacle that what stock that was in the process of being completed were to be finished and the plant was to close after the completion.  Most of that stock was shipped off to Washington State to be used on the Cascades route.  

I do know that the Siemens coaches are nearly ready for release, probably aiming for later this year.


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## milest303 (Mar 12, 2019)

tim49424 said:


> Does the Talgo factory ﻿even exist anymore?  I thought I'd heard after the Scott Walker/Talgo debacle that what stock that was in the process of being completed were to be finished and the plant was to close after the completion.  Most of that stock was shipped off to Washington State to be used on the Cascades route.


I believe the factory is still around, but may be idle at the moment. I know that they refurbished LA subway cars a couple years ago

https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/blog/real_estate/2016/09/talgo-will-return-to-milwaukee-to-refurbish-trains.html


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## tim49424 (Mar 12, 2019)

milest303 said:


> I believe the factory is still around, but may be idle at the moment. I know that they refurbished LA subway cars a couple years ago
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/blog/real_estate/2016/09/talgo-will-return-to-milwaukee-to-refurbish-trains.html




So yeah, nothing new being made there.  Exactly what I thought.


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## Eric S (Mar 12, 2019)

Talgo constructed two trainsets for OR that are used on the Cascades and two trainsets for WI that were to be used on the Hiawathas but were orphaned and have been stored at Beech Grove (?). Talgo was also expected to construct two additional trainsets for WI if the Madison extension of the Hiawatha had gone forward. After the four trainsets (2 OR + 2 WI) were constructed, the facility closed, although WI did consider it as an option for a Talgo maintenance facility before the WI legislature declined to fund it. Later, the Talgo facility was reopened to refurbish Los Angeles transit equipment. Not sure what its current status is, though.


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