# Uber Nasty & Lyft Lowdown?



## The Davy Crockett (Aug 25, 2014)

From this piece at the LA Times' "Opinion L.A." on 8/13/14:



> Really, now, Uber and Lyft. Tsk, tsk.
> I thought the “sharing economy” was supposed to be on the up and up, all kumbaya and mutual respect.
> Instead, the two leading dial-a-ride companies seem to be warring with business tactics that Don Draper would relish in “Mad Men.”


This in reference to the article - linked here, the day before, in the LA Times. From the article:



> In the ridesharing rivalry between Uber and Lyft, the gloves came off with the start of 2014. But the fighting got more intense this week, with Lyft accusing Uber employees of trying to jam its computer system.
> Here are the five most notable battles and attacks this year between the two rivals:
> 1. Lyft accuses Uber employees of denial-of-service attack
> Lyft this week said its data show that at least 177 known Uber employees have opened up the Lyft app, requested a ride and subsequently canceled it as part of a strategy to jam Lyft's service and prompt customers to use Uber instead, according to CNN Money. Since October, Uber employees have done this at least 5,560 times, according to Lyft. Most recently, this kind of attack occurred during Lyft's launch in New York City, Lyft told The Times.
> ...


As the editorial piece above concludes:



> What is on the line is the image and trustworthiness of the whole brand-spanking-new ride-sharing business, at the moment it’s trying to make the case for being superior -- a better business model and a more enlightened one -- to the old-line taxi trade.


While this is going on, AGR sent me an email about this offer...



> Amtrak Guest Rewards members new to Uber can receive $20 off their first ride when they sign up with the Uber app. With Uber, there's no need to call a dispatcher or hail a taxi. Uber's mobile app will connect you with a driver at the push of a button, track your drivers progress to your pickup location right within the Uber app and Uber will even send you a push notification once your driver arrives so you can wait comfortably indoors. Plus, payment is seamlessly billed to your credit card, PayPal account, or Google Wallet at the end of your trip—no need to tip.


Was this really a good idea?

I know Amtrak is trying to be 'hip' and trendy, but think about it. If Amtrak doesn't give a hoot about the traditional business model of taxi companies and thinks anyone should be able to do the same work, then the ride-share model could be applied to Amtrak in the same way ride sharing relates to taxis.... 

1) No need for 'employees' - just use passengers with an app that are taking Amtrak. (it even has a nice 'ring' to it.)

2) Don't worry about insurance - until it becomes a problem. 

3) No need to give those 'temporary' employees benefits.

4) No need to even to tip them.

Think of how much money Amtrak could save!

EDIT: Link fixed


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## rickycourtney (Aug 25, 2014)

I agree that the marketing tactics that both of these companies have been using are at times pretty shameful. Uber has been accused several times of doing things like denial of service attacks and booking drivers at competing services and canceling them at the last minute. That makes it difficult for customers to get a ride and drivers to make a living. It's a shortsighted tactic that ends up pushing people away from all companies.

As it stands currently the insurance issue bothers me. I am happy that some areas like California and Seattle have taken steps to mandate these companies insure their drivers. I would like to see all states come up with similar regulations.

All that being said, I frequently use Uber and Lyft here in Seattle and I love it. Both companies have forced the taxi companies to step up their game (much to their displeasure). Rides with these services are typically 20% less than a street hail cab, the drivers tend to be a lot more focused on customer service (since they know the passenger will rate them) and with UberX the vehicles are usually much cleaner and nicer than a taxicab.

Services like these have made it a lot easier for me to live car free. Normally I take transit where I need to go but there are times when it's just not convenient or feasible. Back five years ago you would've had to call a cab dispatch, wait 20 minutes for a cab to show up (if it ever did) and hope you have enough cash to pay the ridiculously high fare plus tip.


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## The Journalist (Aug 25, 2014)

I don't have either service in my home town (though as a former cab driver I hear rumblings that Uber's coming); my only experience with Uber was in Chicago, and it was rather disappointing. The car showed up with a police officer on his tail, who promptly began hassling the driver about his paperwork. I got a regular cab after it became clear this wasn't going to be resolved quickly. I'm not sure if the driver was actually doing something wrong or was just being harassed by a cop on a power trip; plenty of other "livery" cars came and went without issue so it's entirely possible he had expired registration or something. One thing I'll grant Uber: Since I cancelled the trip after the cancellation window, they sent me an email saying I'd be charged the cancellation fee; I never was, without having to talk to them about it. This suggests there was actually something up with the car they sent.

More on topic, I'm absolutely sure both of these companies-or at least their drivers-are doing what they're accusing each other of doing. It happens in the regular cab industry all the time. It seems like they'd be more able to block reservation trolls than regular cab companies are, though.


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## PerRock (Aug 25, 2014)

The Davy Crockett said:


> 2) Don't worry about insurance - until it becomes a problem.


One thing people keep claiming, which has absolutely no truth to it. Both Lyft & Uber drivers are insured by their respective companies when 'on the clock'.

Oh and yes you can tip them, at least with Lyft.

peter


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 25, 2014)

PerRock said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > 2) Don't worry about insurance - until it becomes a problem.
> ...



First: Its easy for these "_highly reputable_"  companies to '_claim'_ their drivers and riders are covered, but its not that simple. Their drivers are Insured for what? By who? Insured for how much?

"Cross a lawyer with the Godfather, and he'll make you an offer you can't understand" - Don Henley

From this article at nbcbayarea.com:



> It’s the trendiest way to get around town, but Uber drivers have been linked to several alarming incidents including the death of a six year-old girl last New Year’s Eve. Now, the NBC Bay Area Investigative Unit has found that Uber’s policies can leave drivers and passengers in the lurch if there are accidents. And despite administering background checks, Uber still employs drivers with criminal records that include burglary, domestic assault and drug trafficking.
> 
> Drivers for UberX, which unlike the more upscale Uber black car service allows regular folks to drive their own cars, say the hiring process is quite simple. “It's all over the internet,” said Driver Bassim Elbatniji. “You only add your name, you add your social security”.
> 
> ...




Secondly, whoever said you could NOT tip? :blink: The quote from AGR says "no *need* to tip" Notice this is especially implied when one uses electronic payment.

So...

*Amtrak's own reward program is saying there is no need to tip folks with absolutely no employment benefits, *

Its a pretty short ride to folks thinking "Why should I tip Amtrak employees *who get benefits*?"

Is this the message the folks at AGR really want to send out?

If I worked for Amtrak as an SCA, SA, or as an LSA in the cafe, I would not be happy. My own company seems to support undercutting my income! :angry2: That's good for morale in these 'lets cut as many perks as we can" times at Amtrak. :blink:


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 25, 2014)

The taxi business has historically been very violent and cut throat. The reasons for all the regulations and standardizations like you see in New York wasn't to stop customers from being over charged. It was to establish a fare at which all of a limited number of cabbies could make a living at, without all the violence, wars, and undercutting that had been going on.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 25, 2014)

Were having the same "Transportation War" here in Austin where the Three Taxi Companies ( City Chartered) are fighting each other @ City Hall and also with Pedicab Drivers and Uber as well as " Gypsy Cabs" which here are people with private cars who solicit customers @ the various entertainment venues under cutting the others!

This reminds me of the "Wars" that the Various Phone Companies used to have back in the 80s and 90s(MCI was notorious) with tactics like "jamming", sending out Checks to Entice you to switch carriers, Free Service etc etc!


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## VentureForth (Aug 25, 2015)

I just became an Uber driver last week to check it out. First, even though Uber doesn't encourage tipping, it's ALWAYS appreciated by the driver.  The point from Uber is that they say you don't need to carry cash. Conversely, it sort of protects the driver by inferring that we don't carry cash. But Uber refuses to put a tip button on their app, and that is annoying.

Personal insurance is NOT enough. My insurance won't drop me, but I know that several will. Uber has their own insurance for liability only when you have a passenger in the car.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 25, 2015)

Have you done any trips to/from the Amtrak Station?


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 26, 2015)

The only thing less ethical than Uber are the taxi mafias which came before them. I've never seen anyone who travels regularly on their own dime defend a conventional taxi service. Most taxi schemes are little more than a protected price gouging racket born out political lobbying and kickbacks. The insurance issues are a legitimate concern, and are still a work in progress honestly, but in my experience Uber drivers tend to be safer and less aggressive than conventional taxi drives. If a future Uber/Lyft driver was doing anything unsafe I'd have them pull over and then request another car. It's a small price to pay to help put traditional taxi scams out of business. It's rare for me to want an entire industry to be burned off the face of the planet scorched earth style, but conventional taxi companies have managed to convince me that permanent bankruptcy is precisely what they deserve.


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## VentureForth (Aug 26, 2015)

I'd offer you a promo code fur signing up, but you are already on.  I like to think we are a step up from cabbies.


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## SarahZ (Aug 26, 2015)

I thought I read (or heard) somewhere that the tip is automatically included when you pay your Uber fare. Is that not the case?

If so, I've been stiffing every driver.  I feel _horrible_.


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## Devil's Advocate (Aug 26, 2015)

VentureForth said:


> I'd offer you a promo code fur signing up, but you are already on.  I like to think we are a step up from cabbies.


Uber is currently pseudo-banned where I live so it wouldn't help me much at the moment regardless. When Uber came to town it didn't take very long for the entrenched taxi companies to convince the city council to effectively ban ride sharing programs with a steep list of requirements they were either unwilling or unable to meet. After that decision put an abrupt stop to everything many of our younger citizens and (more importantly) some influential parents, techies, and businessmen began complaining. Eventually the city council said they might revisit the original decision. I guess Uber must have burned their bridge pretty badly because our city is only allowing Lyft to operate during an upcoming limited retrial period. I understand that Uber is really unethical in their business practices but I'm hoping that once the genie is out of the bottle we'll eventually see companies with better morals join the fray.


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## VentureForth (Aug 27, 2015)

Tipping is a huge misconception at Uber - and a point of great contention with the drivers. When Uber began, they said they included a 20% tip to the driver. Only the driver never got it. They've removed that terminology after a lawsuit and now say "Tipping isn't Necessary" because they want riders to not worry about carrying cash at all. Their biggest competitor, Lyft, actually offers on the rider app a way to add gratuity to the trip - 100% goes to the driver. Uber has not. When Uber trains new drivers, they specifically tell them that the rider should never be solicited for a gratuity, however, if offered, it's acceptable to receive it.

The fact of the matter is, when Uber started with their X service (the lowest end), the $/mile rate was survivable. But as demand has been compromised by competition and a huge influx of drivers, they lowered the per mile rate - sometimes down to $.79/mi. with no minimum cost.

All that to say this - I can only Uber for pocket change and for the fun and enjoyment of it. I could NEVER make a living off of it. It is a service industry and gratuities will always be appreciated. Last week I made $97 in fares and $9 in tips - only 10%.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Uber will deactivate their drivers if their rating falls below 4.7. That means unless you think the driver deserves to be fired, give him a 5*. It does matter. Now, that's on a 500-trip rolling average. They really are evil geniuses with a porcelain front. And don't get me wrong - I think I'd hire an Uber LOONG before a cab. Friendlier, cleaner, and usually faster to get to you.

Sarah-don't feel bad at all. That's what Uber wants you to think, but it's perfectly acceptable - even in their own T&C's.


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## VentureForth (Aug 27, 2015)

DA: You are right. But make no mistake, the Uber lobbyists are amongst the most cutthroat I've ever heard of. Won't be long before SAS is back up and running.

Amtrak lobbyists could learn a thing or two from these guys...


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## VentureForth (Aug 28, 2015)

Got my first Uber hail today at SAV. Meteor was running about an hour late and I picked up a guy to take downtown.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 28, 2015)

Did he tip good?


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## VentureForth (Aug 31, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> Did he tip good?


Not a penny. Asked him if he rode coach or sleeper. Gave him a bottle of water. Had good railroad conversation. Interjected conservative pro-rail politics.  (J/k!)

On a $9.53 fare, I net $6.82 for an 8 minute drive before expenses.


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## greatcats (Sep 9, 2015)

I have used Uber once, last month in Hollywood, from Griffith Observatory back to the Hilton Garden on Highland. The fare was only 8.01, far cheaper than the cab we took going to Griffith. Our Uber driver was such a nice lady that I happily tipped her $5 in cash.


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## VentureForth (Sep 9, 2015)

May God bless you! 

I say that tongue in cheek. When we sign up to drive for Uber, they make it clear that tipping isn't part of their culture. But it IS a part of American culture, and quite frankly they've cut the rates so low in some areas that some drivers depend on them - yet can't solicit them as that's a violation of policy.

I'll be honest with you - only about 1 in 5 rides or so tip. I'm thankful for them. Buys me a hot dog during the wee hours of the morning. Ain't gettin' rich off it. But in Savannah, the rates are still $1.75 in plus 20 cents per minute and $1.50 per mile. Lower than a cab still. I got in before Uber increased their commission from 20 to 25%. So, on a minimum fare ride, I make $3.20 off a $5 fare ($1 goes to insurance, 20% to Uber).

Folks in Dallas and LA get paid somewhere around 75 and 80 cents a mile and Uber takes 25% off the gross -$1 - with minimum rides as little as $3.50. So in Dallas, a ride from Dallas Union Station to somewhere 10 miles and 10 minutes away will cost $1 Safe Rider Fee + $1 Pick Up + $1 (only 10 cents per minute) + $8.50 for the mileage. A total gross fare of $11.50. The driver only keeps $7.88 but is responsible for paying the gas & maintenance on his/her vehicle. Same distance in Savannah nets me $15 off a $19.75 fare. But demand here is much much less.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 9, 2015)

VF: It seems like fun, but doesnt seem like a fair rate of compensation for you for having to pay for gas, insurance, wear and tear on your car etc. and having to work in the wee hours!

There's a big war going on here in Austin between the Cab Monopolies, the Cabbies and Lyft and Uber, with the City Council being in control of all of this!

I tend to agree with Chris ( DA) that most Cab Companies are Mafia type Monopilies with the politicians raking in the money from all sides! YMMV


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## SarahZ (Sep 9, 2015)

I got out of pizza delivery when I realized the tips & mileage pay weren't enough to keep my car running.

Also, the $2-3 delivery charge goes to the store, not the driver, but a lot of people think the driver gets it and have stopped tipping as a result. There were many nights I ended up spending more for gas than I'd made in tips and mileage combined. It wasn't worth it.


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## VentureForth (Sep 21, 2015)

You can't make a real living driving for Uber for sure. Especially if you want any sort of health insurance. But as a hobby or part time work after 40 hours staring at a computer in a cubicle, it's enjoyable and actually helps to pay for some of the maintenance I've been needing to do anyway.

If nothing else, the deductible miles help offset the taxes against my real job. Like I say - I have a Saturn Ion with nice leather seats, is comfortable and gets 25 mpg. I owe less than $5K on it. Others drive $30-$40,000 Cadillacs and drive 1-2,000 miles per WEEK in them. That's just crazy.

Sarah - I did think that the drivers got the delivery fee specifically to pay for gas and miles. I always tipped on top of that, but thanks for letting me know!


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## willem (Sep 21, 2015)

SarahZ said:


> Also, the $2-3 delivery charge goes to the store, not the driver, but a lot of people think the driver gets it and have stopped tipping as a result.


What is the rationale for the store getting a delivery fee? It seems to me that the work is the same: prepare a pizza and push it out the kitchen door. Having the pizza go out the back door of the kitchen rather than the front door does not seem like a notable difference.

I've never worked in the food industry at a place that had deliveries, so maybe I'm missing something.


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## crabby_appleton1950 (Sep 21, 2015)

I use Uber for about 5 rides (10 round trips) a month here in Albuquerque and love it. (There is no Lyft here)

All the drivers have been very nice, friendly, and professional and help me load groceries, etc in and out of the car.

The cars arrive quickly, usually from 4 to 6 minutes - In the past I've waited up to 90 minutes for a taxi.

A recent Uber ride home from the hospital cost me *$11*. This past winter the same ride in a taxi cost me *$19 plus tip*.

I also get "cash back" from my Visa when using it for Uber and I usually 'earn' enough for one free ride after 4 or 5 rides.

I'll be using Uber today to go to the pharmacy and home.


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## VentureForth (Sep 22, 2015)

Wifey hasn't been to happy with me being away from home during the roughest parts of the night. So, I've relegated myself to airport runs during my lunch hour (or whatever runs I get).

I don't have a fancy car. Just a 2006 white Saturn Ion. It's nice enough with leather seats & cold AC. Yet even that seems to be a step up from a cab. 

ABQ seems to have a really good Ubering community. I would love my buddy to get on board, but I don't think he has the right equipment.


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## VentureForth (Jan 12, 2016)

Sarah - I just noticed that the fares for Uber in Detroit are down to 30 cents per mile! And folks are still driving at that rate!


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