# SEPTA trains - do they have toilets?



## guest*lisa

I will be commuting on SEPTA (Trenton - University City) and need to know if the trains have toilets? Thanks!


----------



## PRR 60

guest*lisa said:


> I will be commuting on SEPTA (Trenton - University City) and need to know if the trains have toilets? Thanks!


No, SEPTA trains do not have toilets.


----------



## guest*lisa

PRR 60 said:


> guest*lisa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will be commuting on SEPTA (Trenton - University City) and need to know if the trains have toilets? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> No, SEPTA trains do not have toilets.
Click to expand...

Darn - I had read some posts here that made me think they do. Thank you.


----------



## DowneasterPassenger

guest*lisa said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> guest*lisa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will be commuting on SEPTA (Trenton - University City) and need to know if the trains have toilets? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> No, SEPTA trains do not have toilets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Darn - I had read some posts here that made me think they do. Thank you.
Click to expand...

There are restrooms in 30th St., Suburban Station and Market East and Trenton stations. Not sure about University City.


----------



## DET63

No septic tanks on SEPTA?


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

DET63 said:


> No septic tanks on SEPTA?


:lol: not a whole lot on SEPTA period. One 5 minute ride was more then enough for me.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

DET63 said:


> No septic tanks on SEPTA?


Septa is a pathetic, sad little system that runs itself like a really long subway. They have worn down stations, worn out equipment, no basic travel comforts, and a general operating profile that suggests their main mission in life is to decrease ridership. Septa is an abject example on how not to build a good commuter rail system.


----------



## AlanB

DET63 said:


> No septic tanks on SEPTA?


No tanks, no toilets, no water.

Only commuter service around, other than the old METRA Electric cars, that don't believe that somone might need to use the facilities during a hour long ride.


----------



## DET63

How much would it cost to upgrade SEPTA to a commuter-rail standard? How much more revenue would such an upgrade bring in?


----------



## AlanB

I'm not sure that it would do all that much to enhance revenue, and it would certainly increase expenses, since you now have to clean the facilities and empty the waste.

As for cost to retrofit, I'm sure that it would be hefty, since there is currently nothing in the cars to support a toilet. You have no water tanks, no plumbing, no closed off area to even put a toilet into, and so on. Frankly it would probably make far better sense to simply get the existing car order changed to provide bathrooms and ensure that all future new car orders include bathrooms.

Initially you'd have to either try to get one MU set with facilities per train, or at least on the longer runs. If the new cars are incompatable with the old, then they should only run on the lines that have the longest runs.


----------



## MikefromCrete

As Alan B pointed out, Metra Electric trains generally have no washroom facilities.

As a young newspaper reporter back in the 1970's, I covered the acquisition of the Highliners, which replaced IC cars built by Pullman back in the 1920's.

The thinking of the Chicago South Suburban Mass Transportation District board some 40 years ago was:

1. The old IC cars didn't have washrooms, so riders are used to this situation.

2. The average trip on the IC suburban was less than an hour, so the passengers could just hold it.

3. The IC, which paid for a portion of the original Highliner order, didn't want the extra expense of servicing the toliets.

Years later, under Metra's ownership, the Electric District passengers became outraged over a number of issues, including the use of ticket gates only on the Electric, the checking of Electric District passenger tickets three times (at the boarding station gate, on the train, and at the departing station gate) while passengers on other Metra route only had to show their tickets once, and the lack of restrooms on the trains (and at most stations).

After a near revolt, Metra did away with the gates and ordered 30 new Highliner cars with washrooms, with the promise that the rest of the fleet would be replaced as soon as possible. After more than five years, there are still only 30 washroom equipped Highliners. While Metra had federal funds on hand, at one point, there were no state matching funds, due to constant haggling in the state legislature.

Now, it looks like Metra will be able to buy another 140 or so additional washroom-equipped Highliners using federal stimulus funds and a new state capital funds made possible, in part, by the legalization of poker slot machines in bars and restaurants!.

In the meantime, Metra only uses the washroom-equipped cars in weekday rush hour service, with the original Highliners piling up more miles on most rush hour trains and all weekday non-peak and all weekend trains.

And Metra Electric passengers still have to "hold it" as they have since at least 1926 (and maybe before that).


----------



## DET63

> And Metra Electric passengers still have to "hold it" as they have since at least 1926 (and maybe before that).


I'd hate to be one of the passengers who's been "holding it" for well over 80 years now . . .


----------



## PRR 60

A couple of years ago there was a power disruption on SEPTA that resulted in trains being stranded for hours. It was an extremely ugly situation given the lack of facilities on the trains. For someone trapped on one of those trains, and particularly for the female side of the equation, it was no joke. For a transportation service in the 21st Century, the word that comes to mind is disgraceful.

It is not just a function of not having cars with facilities. SEPTA has leased NJT cars to increase capacity. Some of those cars have toilets. SEPTA has locked the rooms. They do not want the expense of servicing railcar toilets regardless of the consequences for the passengers.

To be fair, SEPTA runs an extensive rail network and moves a lot of people very reliably. But, when it comes to creature comforts, they are not exactly at the cutting edge.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

PRR 60 said:


> To be fair, SEPTA runs an extensive rail network and moves a lot of people very reliably. But, when it comes to creature comforts, they are not exactly at the cutting edge.


They do it with modest reliability- the lateness I've experienced on Septa makes NJT's NJCL and M&E lines look reliable. And they have been cutting service their entire life. Seriously, when was the last Septa new start?


----------



## The Metropolitan

While SEPTA's Regional Rail has had its share of issues during its existence, I'd certainly hesitate to call it "pathetic."

Many stations tend to be small and closely spaced, but the vast majority of them are WALKABLE to the immediate community around them, something which is often lost in many "new" mentality commuter rail systems in which an automobile is often a necessity to access the sparsely spaced stations.

When I look at some of the newer MARC stations such as Dorsey, Muirkirk and Bowie State, they hardly look situated to be the cornerstones of TOD.

And to be fair, SEPTA did add trains to the Regional Rail schedules in the Spring of 2008.


----------



## FrankStar

Well, some would say the SEPTA trains themselves are the toilets. Actually, I've sort of seen that in practice. I work on Saturdays and take the last R2 at 8:36 p.m. from Wilmington to Philly on Saturday night. Saturday nights are a real zoo on that train - so much so that I have to stop at a nearby bar beforehand for a couple of cocktails so I can tolerate it.

One Saturday, a visibly drunk and weaving man got on board - after bumping into everything and everyone on the platform. Halfway through the trip, I suppose he lost control and lost his water while sitting on the train in the seat across from mine. He spent the rest of his trip trying to dry both his trousers and the puddle on the floor with a paper towel - with the diligence and futility that only the incredibly intoxicated can seem to muster.

I take the R2 four days per week, and the rest of the time it's usually OK (well, Friday evenings can get a bit raucous also, but not nearly so bad as Saturday - there are several trains after the one I take).

During the week, it's usually filled with commuters who want to get to and from work, and who are reasonably quiet. I only use the iPod (The Social Isolator [tm]) when it gets really loud.


----------



## DowneasterPassenger

In spite of all it's woes, Philadelphia has a transit system that many U.S. cities its size can only envy.

SEPTA has an interlocking system of rapid transit, subway, trolley lines and buses. You can basically live and work in Philadelphia without a car. Can the same be said of Houston, Phoenix, San Antonio or Detroit? Even the bay area, with our vaunted BART system, has significant gaps that would be filled if we had kept some of the older railroads in place, as Philly did.

SEPTA may have its woes, but at least it exists.


----------



## FrankStar

Yes, Septa does have its good points. Some of the employees might leave something to be desired and the stations (especially the Broad Street City Hall station that I use three nights a week - yuck!) are less than satisfactory.

Much of my issue is ignorant, loud, obnoxious riders. I wish they would institute the Quiet Car program for every first car on the train - not just during rush hour.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

SanJoaquinRider said:


> In spite of all it's woes, Philadelphia has a transit system that many U.S. cities its size can only envy.
> SEPTA has an interlocking system of rapid transit, subway, trolley lines and buses. You can basically live and work in Philadelphia without a car. Can the same be said of Houston, Phoenix, San Antonio or Detroit? Even the bay area, with our vaunted BART system, has significant gaps that would be filled if we had kept some of the older railroads in place, as Philly did.
> 
> SEPTA may have its woes, but at least it exists.


Pfui. That is the worst excuse I've ever heard. There is no excuse for every city in this country with a million or more people not having a transit system equal to that of New York City. They used to. Pity GM went to ****. They should be the one to fund all the rebuilding of the things they themselves destroyed.


----------



## Philzy

Green Maned Lion said:


> SanJoaquinRider said:
> 
> 
> 
> In spite of all it's woes, Philadelphia has a transit system that many U.S. cities its size can only envy.
> SEPTA has an interlocking system of rapid transit, subway, trolley lines and buses. You can basically live and work in Philadelphia without a car. Can the same be said of Houston, Phoenix, San Antonio or Detroit? Even the bay area, with our vaunted BART system, has significant gaps that would be filled if we had kept some of the older railroads in place, as Philly did.
> 
> SEPTA may have its woes, but at least it exists.
> 
> 
> 
> Pfui. That is the worst excuse I've ever heard. There is no excuse for every city in this country with a million or more people not having a transit system equal to that of New York City. They used to. Pity GM went to ****. They should be the one to fund all the rebuilding of the things they themselves destroyed.
Click to expand...

GML I could not have said it better myself. I moved from Sacramento to Philly a few months ago. While SEPTA lacks in a number of areas, I am happy that is there and still exists. I had sold both of my cars before moving from Florida to California and upon moving to Philly was debating the need for buying a car. I don't need one, and even if I did, Philly has no parking anywhere. I'm glad SEPTA is here, in whatever form it seems to be.

I'm just hopeful, and I may be day dreaming - but that someone comes along and takes SEPTA under it's wing, and makes it into an awesome even better rail system that people would rather *gasp* take than choosing to drive in a personal auto. The other thing which I find deplorable is the fact that so many of the SEPTA stations have not been upgraded to meet ADA codes. I understand that a lot of the stations are older than ADA but there just is no excuse this late in the game for all the stations to be compliant, almost 20 years later and covered in title II & III – IIRC this should have been done some time back.


----------



## zoltan

The Metropolitan said:


> Many stations tend to be small and closely spaced, but the vast majority of them are WALKABLE to the immediate community around them, something which is often lost in many "new" mentality commuter rail systems in which an automobile is often a necessity to access the sparsely spaced stations.
> When I look at some of the newer MARC stations such as Dorsey, Muirkirk and Bowie State, they hardly look situated to be the cornerstones of TOD.


That is a very good point. SEPTA is in the business of providing people with transport, including those without a car, whereas the newer, more purpose-built systems (MARC sitting somewhat uncomfortably between the two) are in the business of relieving congestion on roads that are of concern to the state politicians; providing sufficiently competitive speed and comfort to do it. Both are worthwhile, but they're different aims requiring different approaches. While the former approach is best suited to places with of continuous medium-density legacy suburbs, for which the railway was one of the factors in their development, the latter approach is more suited to low-density suburbs that weren't built with the idea that people might want to be near a railway station.

I used to live five minutes' walk from Burley Park station in Leeds, Northern England, and I can say that it is an absolute joy to be able to walk to a train that serves all of your needs. Never have to park anywhere. Can skip right past the doom and gloom about fuel prices in the newspapers. And this was an option open to everyone in my area, because if you lived a bit further away than me, you could instead walk to Headingley station, three-quarters of a mile down the line. I traveled the three-quarters of a mile to that station by train sometimes myself, because five minutes from there was the supermarket in which I did my grocery shopping. The trains were very basic indeed, but the fare into town was also £1.40 roundtrip, and you don't really mind at that price. If the fare was increased, say, to £2 to pay for improved trains, my expenses would have increased by about £150 a year, which I wouldn't have wanted.

So I say good for SEPTA if it's providing as many residents of the Philadelphia area with that as possible. As for increases in comfort, it all comes back to the fact that if you want to do something with trains that costs money, you have to take money away from the main beneficiary - running trains from point A to point B, or charge the passenger more.


----------



## Dalex

zoltan said:


> The Metropolitan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many stations tend to be small and closely spaced, but the vast majority of them are WALKABLE to the immediate community around them, something which is often lost in many "new" mentality commuter rail systems in which an automobile is often a necessity to access the sparsely spaced stations.
> When I look at some of the newer MARC stations such as Dorsey, Muirkirk and Bowie State, they hardly look situated to be the cornerstones of TOD.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a very good point. SEPTA is in the business of providing people with transport, including those without a car, whereas the newer, more purpose-built systems (MARC sitting somewhat uncomfortably between the two) are in the business of relieving congestion on roads that are of concern to the state politicians; providing sufficiently competitive speed and comfort to do it. Both are worthwhile, but they're different aims requiring different approaches. While the former approach is best suited to places with of continuous medium-density legacy suburbs, for which the railway was one of the factors in their development, the latter approach is more suited to low-density suburbs that weren't built with the idea that people might want to be near a railway station.
> 
> I used to live five minutes' walk from Burley Park station in Leeds, Northern England, and I can say that it is an absolute joy to be able to walk to a train that serves all of your needs. Never have to park anywhere. Can skip right past the doom and gloom about fuel prices in the newspapers. And this was an option open to everyone in my area, because if you lived a bit further away than me, you could instead walk to Headingley station, three-quarters of a mile down the line. I traveled the three-quarters of a mile to that station by train sometimes myself, because five minutes from there was the supermarket in which I did my grocery shopping. The trains were very basic indeed, but the fare into town was also £1.40 roundtrip, and you don't really mind at that price. If the fare was increased, say, to £2 to pay for improved trains, my expenses would have increased by about £150 a year, which I wouldn't have wanted.
> 
> So I say good for SEPTA if it's providing as many residents of the Philadelphia area with that as possible. As for increases in comfort, it all comes back to the fact that if you want to do something with trains that costs money, you have to take money away from the main beneficiary - running trains from point A to point B, or charge the passenger more.
Click to expand...

Actually some of the 2nd generation Silverliners (St. Louis built) *have* toilets, but they have been shut down for a couple of decades. The door is still there, I'd hate to look inside. They were built before retention tanks.

DX- Philadelphia


----------

