# Amtrak goes straight to STB to restore Gulf Coast service.



## neroden (Mar 17, 2021)

They weren't kidding when they indicated that they weren't going to let CSX delay things.

Historians of Amtrak -- - is this a first for Amtrak?









Amtrak Seeks to Begin Gulf Coast Service - Amtrak Media


After more than five years of data-driven and federally-led studies, Amtrak has initiated a process before the U.S. Surface Transportation Board (STB) to require CSX Transportation (CSX) and Norfolk Southern Railway (NS) to permit the operation of two daily Amtrak trains between New Orleans and...




media.amtrak.com













Amtrak asks STB to require CSX, NS to allow Gulf Coast service (updated) - Trains


WASHINGTON — Amtrak is taking its effort to start service along the Gulf Coast to the Surface Transportation Board. The passenger railroad is asking the regulatory body to require CSX Transportation and Norfolk Southern to permit operation of two daily round trips between New Orleans and Mobile...




www.trains.com












Amtrak requests federal ruling to allow for Gulf Coast service


A filing from Amtrak with the Surface Transportation Board requests that CSX and Norfolk Southern permit passenger trains along the Gulf Coast route starting in early 2022.




www.al.com





So I counted STB votes. There are five STB members. Oberman, Shultz, and Primus will most likely side with rail passengers based on their history, and I think Fuchs will too; Begeman might as well. Oberman spent most of his career at Metra. Shultz spent her entire career at SEPTA. Primus worked as legislative assistant to pro-rail Democrats in heavily rail-dependent districts. Fuchs was pressed on this specific question during his confirmation hearing by Senator Wicker and said he was open to prescribing terms and conditions to the freight railroads. Begeman has not shown any particular interest in passenger rail but has often sided with shippers against freight railroads, which is a similar issue.

So I think Amtrak is likely to get what it wants at the STB. Expect the dishonest, lawbreaking sore losers at CSX and/or NS to file frivolous lawsuits -- though they would be wise not to, with the Biden administration, majorities of both houses of Congress, and significant numbers of Senate Republicans (led by Senator Wicker) ready to pass a law specifically to make Gulf Coast service happen (which could overrule any court).


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## neroden (Mar 19, 2021)

What, no comments? Did I really say everything there is to be said about this?

Has Amtrak ever before gone to the STB (or before that the ICC) to demand its right to be hosted?


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## Dakota 400 (Mar 19, 2021)

neroden said:


> significant numbers of Senate Republicans (led by Senator Wicker)



I was unaware that Senator Wicker was that strong of an Amtrak supporter. How are you defining "significant numbers"? Do you have a number in mind?


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## MARC Rider (Mar 19, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> I was unaware that Senator Wicker was that strong of an Amtrak supporter. How are you defining "significant numbers"? Do you have a number in mind?


Sen. Wicker might not be an Amtrak supporter in general, but I suspect he supports the idea of a train serving his state, especially if there's local support for it.

Many Americans don't realize how provincial our national legislators are -- all of them, regardless of state or party.


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## Cal (Mar 19, 2021)

I am hopeful for service to be restored.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 20, 2021)

This is just another step towards this service starting. As the OP stated the lawsuit by the freight railroads come next. The light at the end of tunnel is not a train, it’s a bunch of lawyers using there phone to slow or stop this project.


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## me_little_me (Mar 20, 2021)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> This is just another step towards this service starting. As the OP stated the lawsuit by the freight railroads come next. The light at the end of tunnel is not a train, it’s a bunch of lawyers using there phone to slow or stop this project.


A good reason to speed up. Would get positive news for Amtrak. "We run down sleazy lawyers!"


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## jis (Mar 20, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> I was unaware that Senator Wicker was that strong of an Amtrak supporter. How are you defining "significant numbers"? Do you have a number in mind?


More of a Gulf Coast Service supporter. I suspect that to the extent that brings Amtrak along, that too.  I don;t think we ever heard a peep from him when the Crescent lost Diner service, and even now that it is not scheduled to get it back.


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## NES28 (Mar 20, 2021)

I will remind people of the case in the late 1980s where Amtrak took ownership of the Connecticut River line from the Boston & Maine RR by eminent domain when it refused to maintain it to safe passenger train standards. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld the action. After the line was upgraded Amtrak sold it to the Central Vermont.


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## DonNewcomb (Mar 22, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> I was unaware that Senator Wicker was that strong of an Amtrak supporter. How are you defining "significant numbers"? Do you have a number in mind?


What @MARC Rider said. Wicker may not give a hoot about Amtrak routes in California but he wants Mississippi to get its "fair share*" of whatever is passed out.

*Where "fair share" means "as much as possible".


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## John Bredin (Mar 22, 2021)

DonNewcomb said:


> What @MARC Rider said. Wicker may not give a hoot about Amtrak routes in California but he wants Mississippi to get its "fair share*" of whatever is passed out.
> 
> *Where "fair share" means "as much as possible".



Which is better than the governors (Walker, Kasich, etc.) who refused federal funds for significant network-expanding improvements to passenger rail service because the funds were (approved by Congress but) associated with Obama.


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## Palmetto (Mar 23, 2021)

And let's not forget Scott in Florida.


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## TrackWalker (Mar 29, 2021)

Y’All Aboard? Much is riding on dispute over Gulf Coast passenger service - Trains


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## neroden (Apr 3, 2021)

"Significant" == "more than one" in this case, meaning enough to put riders into legislation even if a couple of Democrats aren't on board with it. And yes, Wicker is primarily interested in Gulf Coast service; very parochial. He's got a few others on board.


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## jis (Jun 9, 2021)

*MS: New US railroad leader: Amtrak coming to Gulf Coast is a priority. Here's the latest.*


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## Chucks (Jun 10, 2021)

Frankly, I just don't see the service being restored, much as I would like to see it come back. Did I read that the governor of Alabama said she was opposed to it? Or liked the idea but wasn't going to throw any money at it? I've been watching everything about this route ever since it was discontinued (or "suspended," as the Amtrak timetable states, lol) for nearly 20 years now. I don't think the stations across north Florida could produce sufficient ridership: Pensacola, Crestview, Chipley, Marianna, Tallahassee, Lake City. A single train Los Angeles>Miami would be amazing, or even to Orlando, but ... I just don't think it's in the cards.


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

There is no plan to extend the Sunset to Florida. So naturally that won’t happen.


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## joelkfla (Jun 10, 2021)

jis said:


> There is no plan to extend the Sunset to Florida. So naturally that won’t happen.


Well, even on the recently released plans, it's still shown on the map as "suspended", so maybe ... sometime in the future ...


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## Cal (Jun 10, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Well, even on the recently released plans, it's still shown on the map as "suspended", so maybe ... sometime in the future ...


Hahahhaha, good joke!


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jun 10, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Well, even on the recently released plans, it's still shown on the map as "suspended", so maybe ... sometime in the future ...


Even if service is restored all the way to Florida, it would likely be either an extension of the CONO or a new route rather than an extension of the SL.


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Even if service is restored all the way to Florida, it would likely be either an extension of the CONO or a new route rather than an extension of the SL.


Yup. Literally no one, except maybe a few railfans mostly for sentimental reasons, want a thrice a week service to be extended. They all seem to prefer daily service that does not depend on a delay prone trans-continental service running miraculously on time..


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## zephyr17 (Jun 10, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Well, even on the recently released plans, it's still shown on the map as "suspended", so maybe ... sometime in the future ...


It shows suspended because Amtrak never did the 6 month notice of discontinuance required to formally discontinue it by the National Rail Passenger Act of 1970. It's been that way since Katrina. Keeping it suspended means it isn't officially discontinued and Amtrak is in technical compliance with the Act that created it, though violating its intent. Amtrak has repeatedly demonstrated it has absolutely no intention of reviving the service and intends to leave it in "suspended" status forever.


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## jis (Jun 10, 2021)

I don't think anybody including CSX, the short line that CSX sold most of the route to, FRA, Federal DOT, STB, the Southern Rail Commission, Senator Weicker or anyone else really believes that the Sunset East will ever get reinstated at this point. The Israelis call such things "establshing facts on the ground". It is well known that it often works too well


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## neroden (Jun 11, 2021)

jis said:


> I don't think anybody including CSX, the short line that CSX sold most of the route to, FRA, Federal DOT, STB, the Southern Rail Commission, Senator Weicker or anyone else really believes that the Sunset East will ever get reinstated at this point. The Israelis call such things "establshing facts on the ground". It is well known that it often works too well



The real issue is that Pensacola, the cities in the Florida Panhandle, and the state government of Florida, doesn't seem to care. If they were raising enough of a ruckus, it would come back. That seems to be how it works.


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## west point (Jun 11, 2021)

The Pensacola horseshoe to the south to go through the city causes an hour loss in travel time.


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## jiml (Jun 11, 2021)

If we move past the novelty of having a true "trans-continental" train, restoring the Sunset to Florida makes no sense. Timekeeping alone makes it impractical. It makes much more sense to have a local day train or extend the CONO eastward from NOL.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 11, 2021)

I don't disagree, jiml, but I still feel strongly that if they aren't going to run the service, they should file official discontinuance on it and put this "suspended" fairy tale to an end.

Of course, filing discontinuance now on a train that hasn't run in 16 years will probably be noticed in the press and make them look foolish. They should have filed when CSX notified them that line was restored some months after Katrina, since they clearly did not intend to resume service at that point.


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## Qapla (Jun 11, 2021)

The interesting thing is - Amtrak ran a test train with dignitaries on it after the line was restored ... the claim was that the enough states/counties/cities involved were not in support of the resumption if they were going to have to help fund it.


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## west point (Jun 11, 2021)

Probably true. None of the cities wanted to rebuild stations. Even the Sanford station that did not exactly suffer the hurricane.


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## George Harris (Jun 12, 2021)

The killer for the restoration of the Gulf Coast is run time. Reality check, New Orleans to Jacksonville:
Highway: 546 miles, 8 hours of driving
Old Gulf Wind Schedule: 613 miles, 15 hours.
That run time goes back to when L&N-SAL were trying to run an as fast as practical train, not what would now be practical. I do not know what their maximum line speeds were, but in the 1960's L&N usually had a maximum 70 mph passenger train speed limit on signaled territory and 55 mph on unsignaled territory. SAL, I have no idea. The slight increase to the allowed limits of 79 mph / 59 mph would be relatively meaningless given other constraints.

Most of the extra 57 miles in distance is the dogleg Mobile - Flomaton AL - Pensacola. 104 miles by rail versus the direct I-10 highway distance of 58 miles. Then there is the unsignaled line Flomaton to Tallahassee, 248 miles of legal speed limit of 59 mph. By the way, signals with their potential 79 mph speed limit don't mean that suddenly you can run that speed throughout. You still have curves and other restrictions in play. 

New Orleans to Mobile should be another story, as the road versus rail distance is about equal and the railroad is relatively straight (and flat). However, short to medium distance service need to have multiple trains per day to attract decent ridership.


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## DonNewcomb (Jul 9, 2021)

https://www.sunherald.com/news/local/article252655053.html?


Will Gulf Coast train passenger service start on Jan. 1? Amtrak asks feds to hurry


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## chrsjrcj (Jul 9, 2021)

Sounds like they’ve got the okay from NS. 

CSX is still being stubborn, but at least it sounds like Amtrak can begin qualification runs


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 10, 2021)

What would be a best case scenario here? Improved track and signaling could get the NO to Jacksonville run down to what, 12 hours? Even if it was 15, it would still be quicker (and cheaper) than going around to get to NO from Fla. It's a gap that needs to be closed, not the only one, not even the most important one. But still.


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## railiner (Jul 10, 2021)

jiml said:


> If we move past the novelty of having a true "trans-continental" train, restoring the Sunset to Florida makes no sense. Timekeeping alone makes it impractical. It makes much more sense to have a local day train or extend the CONO eastward from NOL.


I agree that the Sunset should terminate in New Orleans, but instead of extending the CONO eastward, I would like to see a separate train that would run from New Orleans to Miami.

If a same day connection at New Orleans was not practical, New Orleans is a great place to stay overnight...


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## railiner (Jul 10, 2021)

I wouldn't mind at all if they could use this old schedule between Miami and New Orleans.


The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


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## jiml (Jul 10, 2021)

railiner said:


> I wouldn't mind at all if they could use this old schedule between Miami and New Orleans.
> 
> 
> The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


It's a shame there isn't a more northerly arc for a New Orleans-Florida train, rather than the circuitous and slow route via Pensacola. Is it necessary to continue to Jacksonville, rather just heading to central Florida/Orlando? I know some CSX track has been abandoned, but not sure which.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Jul 10, 2021)

jiml said:


> It's a shame there isn't a more northerly arc for a New Orleans-Florida train, rather than the circuitous and slow route via Pensacola. Is it necessary to continue to Jacksonville, rather just heading to central Florida/Orlando? I know some CSX track has been abandoned, but not sure which.


Yes, it is necessary to pass through Jacksonville. There used to be a line which bypassed the Jacksonville area, but it has been abandoned for many years.






Perry Cutoff - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## railiner (Jul 10, 2021)

jiml said:


> It's a shame there isn't a more northerly arc for a New Orleans-Florida train, rather than the circuitous and slow route via Pensacola.


Well there is, sort of...they could use some of the route of Amtraks former _Floridian, _but it would be a considerably longer route, via Valdosta and Montgomery before coming back down to Mobile. And Florida wouldn't support it since it would not serve Tallahassee or the rest of the panhandle stations....


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## Barb Stout (Jul 10, 2021)

If the CONO was extended eastward, what would its route be?


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## WICT106 (Jul 11, 2021)

Most likely, the route going directly along the coast, NOL - Mobile - Pensacola - Tallahassee, Jacksonville.


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## west point (Jul 11, 2021)

As a start Amtrak could route passengers on the Crescent to ATL. Then a new train to JAX to connect to one of the silvers. ATL - JAX ~350 new rail miles. ATL - NOL ~522 rail miles New Orleans - JAX ~616 rail miles and Mobile - JAX ~470 rail miles. Just ~ 255 rail miles farther by way of ATL. 

So Amtrak could set NOL / and beyond - JAX fares as if direct. This would mean fewer new rail miles and serve a much greater potential market. However The revised Crescent schedule is a real impediment to operate this connecting route. Would need to return to old schedule. This routing would help fill the Crescent's low passenger numbers NOL - ATL.


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## joelkfla (Jul 11, 2021)

west point said:


> As a start Amtrak could route passengers on the Crescent to ATL. Then a new train to JAX to connect to one of the silvers. ATL - JAX ~350 new rail miles. ATL - NOL ~522 rail miles New Orleans - JAX ~616 rail miles and Mobile - JAX ~470 rail miles. Just ~ 255 rail miles farther by way of ATL.
> 
> So Amtrak could set NOL / and beyond - JAX fares as if direct. This would mean fewer new rail miles and serve a much greater potential market. However The revised Crescent schedule is a real impediment to operate this connecting route. Would need to return to old schedule. This routing would help fill the Crescent's low passenger numbers NOL - ATL.


Three trains to get between ORL & NOL. Only the most intrepid railfan would bother.

A single transfer is acceptable to some passengers; two is too many.


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## George Harris (Jul 11, 2021)

If the direct as you can get route via Pensacola and Tallahassee is too slow, how on earth can it be expected that a longer route, via Montgomery or Montgomery - Atlanta - Jacksonville be expected to attract passengers? Not happening. Higher average speeds between intermediate points is meaningless if end to end times are longer. The only rationale for these longer routes would be shorter haul passengers between these intermediate points. Besides which, neither the Montgomery - Atlanta nor the Atlanta - Jacksonville routes are very straight nor have they ever been fast.


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## railiner (Jul 11, 2021)

George Harris said:


> If the direct as you can get route via Pensacola and Tallahassee is too slow, how on earth can it be expected that a longer route, via Montgomery or Montgomery - Atlanta - Jacksonville be expected to attract passengers? Not happening. Higher average speeds between intermediate points is meaningless if end to end times are longer. The only rationale for these longer routes would be shorter haul passengers between these intermediate points. Besides which, neither the Montgomery - Atlanta nor the Atlanta - Jacksonville routes are very straight nor have they ever been fast.


I agree with you, but since many long-haul rail passenger's are not "time-sensitive", adding a few hours to a long trip really doesn't matter. Back when the _Floridian _operated, and before the _Sunset Ltd _was extended, some passengers used Birmingham as a connection point between Florida and New Orleans. 
Now some will go all the way up to Washington to do the same. Or travel two nights between Florida and Chicago, when the _Floridian _did it in one night...


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## railiner (Jul 11, 2021)

Barb Stout said:


> If the CONO was extended eastward, what would its route be?





WICT106 said:


> Most likely, the route going directly along the coast, NOL - Mobile - Pensacola - Tallahassee, Jacksonville.


But only as far as Mobile....


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## west point (Jul 11, 2021)

Although I only had the ATL connection go to JAX suspect an ATL - JAX train might have some or all cars join a silver at JAX onto MIA. Either Silver has too many thru passengers at JAX to allow ATL <> JAX passengers to connect there to points beyond JAX. As well Gulf Breeze probably needs connecting cars. NOL <> JAX prior times were ~ 15"45.

There is the possibility of an ATL <> JAX will have a large number of passenger originating on that route. The few from NOL thru ATL would be ~21:00 + 2 hours connecting time = 23:00. Passenger traveling from NOL would just fill Half a car. Mainly from Sunset which at present is just 3 days a week.

For Crescent it would be natural for originations at Hattiesburg ( 2:30 to NOL + 2:00 connecting time ) = ~ 20:15 HBG <> ATL ~ 10 :15 +2:00 connecting time. ATL <> JAX previous was 8:20 = ~ 20:00. Not realistic now. So we have any passengers HBG and north taking Crescent to ATL and new train to JAX in less time than going back to NOL. Once again some of our posters are just considering end points It is the intermediate stations that are important. 

These stations Meridian, Tuscaloosa, Birmingham, + ATL , Macon , Valdosta provide more potential passengers. Plus newly implemented route miles is less on NS, CSX, or combination . The Gulf breeze route will require 2 full train sets or more if some cars thru and ATL <> JAX only 1 set and ATL <> Florida may require 2 or maybe 3 train sets.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 11, 2021)

Instead of figuring out all kinds of connections to long-distance routes for these parts of the southeast, why not figure out regional routes that provide good service to the area and can compete with driving? I would think that a New Orleans to Mobile corridor is a good start. I hope they're planning multiple trains per day between the two cities. There are probably a number of regional routes that could radiate from Atlanta, but they'll really need to get a better station in Atlanta. Daily New Orleans to Houston Service, and more than one train a day would also be a good idea, as well as a regional/commuter line between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. I think the New Orleans - Jacksonville route is totally impractical, mainly because of inadequate rail infrastructure east of Mobile (unless somebody with very deep pockets and the stomach to fight Florida NIMBYs wants to build a totally new railroad line between Mobile and Pensacola.)


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## joelkfla (Jul 11, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> I would think that a New Orleans to Mobile corridor is a good start. I hope they're planning multiple trains per day between the two cities.


2 round trips are planned.


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## John Santos (Jul 12, 2021)

George Harris said:


> The killer for the restoration of the Gulf Coast is run time. Reality check, New Orleans to Jacksonville:
> Highway: 546 miles, 8 hours of driving
> Old Gulf Wind Schedule: 613 miles, 15 hours.



Reality check: to drive it in 8 hours would require an average speed of over 68 mph and exactly no stops for gas, food or bathroom breaks. Plus a HUGE gas tank full when you started. This is ludicrous.


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## Anderson (Jul 12, 2021)

west point said:


> As a start Amtrak could route passengers on the Crescent to ATL. Then a new train to JAX to connect to one of the silvers. ATL - JAX ~350 new rail miles. ATL - NOL ~522 rail miles New Orleans - JAX ~616 rail miles and Mobile - JAX ~470 rail miles. Just ~ 255 rail miles farther by way of ATL.
> 
> So Amtrak could set NOL / and beyond - JAX fares as if direct. This would mean fewer new rail miles and serve a much greater potential market. However The revised Crescent schedule is a real impediment to operate this connecting route. Would need to return to old schedule. This routing would help fill the Crescent's low passenger numbers NOL - ATL.


If you're going to run a new train ATL-JAX, you should _probably_ run that train through to either ORL or MIA (ORL being an inherently bigger market than JAX because of a certain mouse).


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## Anderson (Jul 12, 2021)

John Santos said:


> Reality check: to drive it in 8 hours would require an average speed of over 68 mph and exactly no stops for gas, food or bathroom breaks. Plus a HUGE gas tank full when you started. This is ludicrous.


Most of I-10 is signed for 70 MPH, which generally translates to traffic doing about 75-80 these days. Take a modern car, and most folks could do that trip with a single refueling stop (heck, my Eldorado would only require two stops), which could probably be achieved in about ten minutes. The question of food/bathroom stops is a trickier one...I can see a case for just hitting a drive thru when you stop for gas, so the question of the bathroom is the remaining one. Let's say a 15-minute food-gas stop and two five-minute bathroom stops. Manage an average of 72 MPH by mostly running with a traffic flow at 75-80 and that's doable. It might be a bit of a stretch but it is hardly implausible.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 12, 2021)

John Santos said:


> Reality check: to drive it in 8 hours would require an average speed of over 68 mph and exactly no stops for gas, food or bathroom breaks. Plus a HUGE gas tank full when you started. This is ludicrous.


Correct. I would say, that including stops, this is a 10 hour drive, at least. I used to do those sort of drives, but not anymore, so I would also need to spend the night on the road (in a motel, of course), thus making the trip a lot longer than 15 hours and a lot more expensive than any train fare.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 12, 2021)

Anderson said:


> Most of I-10 is signed for 70 MPH, which generally translates to traffic doing about 75-80 these days. Take a modern car, and most folks could do that trip with a single refueling stop (heck, my Eldorado would only require two stops), which could probably be achieved in about ten minutes. The question of food/bathroom stops is a trickier one...I can see a case for just hitting a drive thru when you stop for gas, so the question of the bathroom is the remaining one. Let's say a 15-minute food-gas stop and two five-minute bathroom stops. Manage an average of 72 MPH by mostly running with a traffic flow at 75-80 and that's doable. It might be a bit of a stretch but it is hardly implausible.


Just because most of the trip is signposted for 70 mph doesn't mean that you'll be driving at a 70 mph average speed. My long experience with road trips is a 50 mph average speed for freeway driving, which is consistent no matter what the speed limit is. Every car I've ever owned could do a 525 mile drive with only one refueling stop. Some people may be have iron bladders and flexible joints, and can eat while driving, but my body just can't take that; I need to make short stops every 1-2 hours for bathroom breaks and stretch my legs, and I need a real lunch stop where I can eat sitting down at a table, even if it is fast food.

By the way, my freshman calculus textbook introduced a situation where the speed limit was 60 mph, the driver presented a ticket at the tollbooth showing that he did the 60 mile distance in exactly an hour, and the cop in the tollbooth promptly gave the driver a speeding ticket, using the situation to explain the principles of derivatives and integrals. So just because the speed limit is 70 mph doesn't mean that your average speed is 70 mph.


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## Ryan (Jul 12, 2021)

Even if you travel at a more leisurely pace and take 10 hours for the trip...

You're still 5 hours faster than the train.

The thing about a 15 hour trip is also that you're almost certainly going to have one of those endpoints be at a pretty inconvenient time. 0700-2200 is about the best you can do, earlier and departure sucks, later and you're getting off the train at a late hour. Sure, you can make it an overnight trip (the reverse of 1900-1000 would be pretty nice), but now you've screwed over every stop in the middle with an overnight embark/debark.


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## west point (Jul 12, 2021)

We need to think about who will travel on the NOL<> JAX and <> MIA. The coast is the same for the whole Gulf and the Atlantic coast is somewhat rougher. IMO that will preclude travels to another location that mirrors where you live. Granted that the gambling will attract some passengers from eastern Florida. One important city is the capitol Tallahassee.

Interior Alabama travel to Florida is not that easy by car except traveling to I-10 then east. The Crescent - New train to JAX will serve persons especially Meridian and north. Naturally JAX should not be the termini. Either join it to a silver or run separately. Note: Tampa - Sarasota is very strong around ATL. I-75 is a nightmare to drive in Florida. Almost everyone including this poster finds that 75% of time traffic is backed up usually by an accident. Football time at Gainesville ? Don't even ask.


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## jis (Jul 12, 2021)

All of the ridership studies and travel trend studies done so far that I have had access to, shows that given one has to select among many possible routes in the Southeast, to spend the limited new route resources on, apparently Mobile to JAX does not make the cut in any of them. Heck it seems not to make the cut for even a Thruway service at present. Which is kind of sad but apparently true. And specially given that Florida does not want to contribute anything, why should everyone else spend money on a route that is mostly in Florida?

Even the recent FRA Southeast rail corridor Study gives a pass to the general flow between New Orleans and Jacksonville/Orlando etc.



https://c2c45030-16d5-42f3-8f66-b284d1f5872e.filesusr.com/ugd/f32a1d_6e2bd26333cc4562b9edd8cf6e42e7ac.pdf



Interestingly the FRA vision includes NOL - Mobile Pascagula and thence to Montgomery on to Atlanta. And of course it includes Atlanta - Macon - JAX and into the Florida internal network. Conspicuously absent is the link between Pascagoula and JAX or anywhere else in Florida.

And BTW I am a resident of Florida, albeit maybe a somewhat contrarian one on this one.


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## Anderson (Jul 12, 2021)

Ryan said:


> Even if you travel at a more leisurely pace and take 10 hours for the trip...
> 
> You're still 5 hours faster than the train.
> 
> The thing about a 15 hour trip is also that you're almost certainly going to have one of those endpoints be at a pretty inconvenient time. 0700-2200 is about the best you can do, earlier and departure sucks, later and you're getting off the train at a late hour. Sure, you can make it an overnight trip (the reverse of 1900-1000 would be pretty nice), but now you've screwed over every stop in the middle with an overnight embark/debark.


Yes, but that "overnight embark/debark" might still be better for connectivity. See also: Every LD Train That Touches Chicago. You can, for example, get a day train CIN-CHI...just not while making _any _onward connections.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 12, 2021)

I guess this shows the limits of looking at a map and thinking 'there should be a train there, there used to be a train there...'. Still, I'd say that there absolutely should be some better connection NOLA to FLa than there is now, no?


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## zephyr17 (Jul 12, 2021)

danasgoodstuff said:


> I guess this shows the limits of looking at a map and thinking 'there should be a train there, there used to be a train there...'. Still, I'd say that there absolutely should be some better connection NOLA to FLa than there is now, no?


It was hole in in the initial Amtrak system in 1971 and it is a hole now. The only time it wasn't was the fairly brief period between 1993 and 2005.

It is one of many holes in the Amtrak route map. Florida-Atlanta-Chicago. Any north south service between the City of New Orleans and the West Coast. Los Angeles-Las Vegas-Salt Lake. Portland-Boise-Salt Lake. Minneapolis-Kansas City. St. Louis-Indianapolis-Columbus-Cleveland.

Amtrak's system is skeletal at best. Once you go looking for holes, they're easy to fine.

Roughly 50% of trains were discontinued upon Amtrak's inception. They're still gone.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 12, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> It was hole in in the initial Amtrak system in 1971 and it is a hole now. The only time it wasn't was the fairly brief period between 1993 and 2005.
> 
> It is one of many holes in the Amtrak route map. Florida-Atlanta-Chicago. Any north south service between the City of New Orleans and the West Coast. Los Angeles-Las Vegas-Salt Lake. Portland-Boise-Salt Lake. Minneapolis-Kansas City. St. Louis-Indianapolis-Columbus-Cleveland.
> 
> ...


And many more were already gone, the've been behind the 8 ball from the get go - but that doesn't answer what should they do now with their recently increased but still very finite resources.


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## west point (Jul 13, 2021)

jis: Thanks for the link. Looks like persons making a multi thousand dollar study came to same conclusions that we did. This is just one more reason for Amtrak to spend fewer limited funds on the ATL <> JAX route and on into Florida and get more bang for the buck. ( passengers ). With the projected passengers Amtrak will need much more rolling stock for the ATL <> JAX <> Florida service. I can see only 3 cars needed for a Gulf Breeze.

https://c2c45030-16d5-42f3-8f66-b28...d/f32a1d_6e2bd26333cc4562b9edd8cf6e42e7ac.pdf

To not neglect the Gulf coast future traffic there is needed to be planned from the interior ATL - Mobile - NOL; Knoxville/Nashville/ ATL <> Pensacola / Panama City / other gulf coast points. . Those locations are very popular around my neck of the woods.


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## NYP2NFL01 (Jul 13, 2021)

Anderson said:


> If you're going to run a new train ATL-JAX, you should _probably_ run that train through to either ORL or MIA (ORL being an inherently bigger market than JAX because of a certain mouse).


Yep and I'm heading down to see that certain "mouse" in September on the Silver Service!


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## sttom (Jul 13, 2021)

The main issue with Amtrak's beginning is that it's manadated to maintain a national network to provide a balanced transportation system, but there is and was absolutely no definition of what that would mean in practice. And to this day there is no discussion on what that would mean as far as service levels, route structure and on going funding would mean. We might lower the 750 mile rule, but that means crap when we haven't given Amtrak a job description beyond a headline and a pittance of funding.


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## DonNewcomb (Jul 13, 2021)

west point said:


> ..... Once again some of our posters are just considering end points It is the intermediate stations that are important.....


 IMHO this was one of the big problems with the Sunset between Mobile and Tallahassee. It took about 12 hours to get between NOL and Pensacola (a ~4-hour drive) and everything to the east of P'cola happened at Oh-dark-thirty.


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## George Harris (Jul 13, 2021)

John Santos said:


> Reality check: to drive it in 8 hours would require an average speed of over 68 mph and exactly no stops for gas, food or bathroom breaks. Plus a HUGE gas tank full when you started. This is ludicrous.


(Comparing to old Gulf Wind time of 15 hours.)
I was aware of that. I was simply quoting the mileage and time in the phone app. However, if you do your usual couple gas stops and food stops, you still will be under 12 hours. I find too many people that don't think about this sort of stuff. They will say, "Oh, I can drive it in 8," without recognizing when they say it they will probably allow 10 to 12 for the trip. On the other hand, you do have to/from station times you would need to add to the train time in developing your true trip duration. Regardless, unless Amtrak can get a handle on RELIABILITY, they are probably going to get more "never again" than "can't wait for the next trip" passengers.


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## neroden (Jul 14, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> I don't disagree, jiml, but I still feel strongly that if they aren't going to run the service, they should file official discontinuance on it and put this "suspended" fairy tale to an end.



They might do that after they get service restored to Mobile. 

Amtrak's legal filiing with the STB laid out the entire timeline and made it clear that Amtrak has been pushing to get service restored continuously since Katrina, at least as far as Mobile.



> Of course, filing discontinuance now on a train that hasn't run in 16 years will probably be noticed in the press and make them look foolish. They should have filed when CSX notified them that line was restored some months after Katrina, since they clearly did not intend to resume service at that point.


They did. It's in Amtrak's filing. CSX interfered.


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## neroden (Jul 14, 2021)

jiml said:


> It's a shame there isn't a more northerly arc for a New Orleans-Florida train, rather than the circuitous and slow route via Pensacola. Is it necessary to continue to Jacksonville, rather just heading to central Florida/Orlando? I know some CSX track has been abandoned, but not sure which.


The next set of tracks to the north of the "Pensacola dogleg" is the east-west line which runs Shreveport LA-Jackson MS-Montgomery AL. There is also a Montgomery to Mobile line. Passenger service has been proposed on both lines recently.

While it wouldn't be competitive with driving from New Orleans to Florida, restoring the Jacksonville-Atlanta line would make for an all-rail route shorter than the current detour via North Carolina, and in general the Atlanta-Florida traffic flows are much larger. So this should be the priority rather than restoration of the Florida Panhandle route.


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## DonNewcomb (Jul 15, 2021)

neroden said:


> The next set of tracks to the north of the "Pensacola dogleg" is the east-west line which runs Shreveport LA-Jackson MS-Montgomery AL. There is also a Montgomery to Mobile line. Passenger service has been proposed on both lines recently....


It would have been nice to have trackage running southeast from Bay Minette and paralleling I-10 going into and out of P'cola. No need for a station downtown, out by the old University Mall would have been fine. Someone would have had to foresee the need to do this in the '60s. This assuming that a rail crossing at Mobile is just not practical. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.


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## ShiningTimeStL (Jul 15, 2021)

Chicago to Jacksonville? New Orleans to Jacksonville? I think I agree with some of the sentiments here that those won't work, even though they would be nice, especially for "novelty" travelers. Honestly if there was any way at all to get to FLA by train and not have to go to NY to do it, I would be elated. How about Memphis-Birmingham-Jacksonville? That could knock out a few of these problems at once, though I'm also eternally frustrated that St. Louis's connection to CONO is an 11pm bus to Carbondale, and there seems to be zero justification (or money, or willingness) for an I-55 (or literally anywhere else in Missouri, ever) corridor service. If I can get directly to San Diego from St. Louis, why the heck shouldn't I be able to get directly to, say, Tampa?

Also isn't there/wasn't there some luxury bus line from ATL to JAX? That should be a heads up...


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## joelkfla (Jul 15, 2021)

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Honestly if there was any way at all to get to FLA by train and not have to go to NY to do it, I would be elated.


You don't need to go thru NY from Chicago to FL, you can go thru Washington.


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## neroden (Jul 17, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> You don't need to go thru NY from Chicago to FL, you can go thru Washington.


Technically you can do it via NC. It's messy though, involving an early-morning transfer in Greensboro NC and spending all day in Raleigh or Cary NC; in the other direction, a quicker transfer at Raleigh or Cary and a very long wait to catch the Crescent after midnight at Greensboro.

I think it ends up taking the same amount of time overall as changing in WAS, just different stopover locations.


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## lordsigma (Jul 17, 2021)

Wasn’t a once daily New Orleans to Jacksonville part of the Southern Rail Commissions original plan along with the extra frequency to Mobile only? They did run the test train the whole way. I know I remember reading it a few years back - I think I also remember reading that the Alabama governor’s opposition to the service was a factor in abandoning the once daily east of Mobile - I’d suspect lack of interest in funding from Florida was probably also a factor. While it was originally a long distance route the bottom line is it’s not going to come back without state support from Alabama and Florida - nor is any other new service regardless of distance.


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## me_little_me (Jul 18, 2021)

neroden said:


> Technically you can do it via NC. It's messy though, involving an early-morning transfer in Greensboro NC and spending all day in Raleigh or Cary NC; in the other direction, a quicker transfer at Raleigh or Cary and a very long wait to catch the Crescent after midnight at Greensboro.
> 
> I think it ends up taking the same amount of time overall as changing in WAS, just different stopover locations.



Chicago to Florida? 

Huh! That doesn't make sense. The Crescent goes from NYP to NOL and is next to useless for getting to Florida. CHI-->NOL on the CONO, then overnight, then Crescent to Greensboro, then Piedmont/Carolinian to Raleigh/Cary then Silver to Florida? Is that what you are suggesting?

Am I missing something?


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## jis (Jul 18, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> Wasn’t a once daily New Orleans to Jacksonville part of the Southern Rail Commissions original plan along with the extra frequency to Mobile only? They did run the test train the whole way. I know I remember reading it a few years back - I think I also remember reading that the Alabama governor’s opposition to the service was a factor in abandoning the once daily east of Mobile - I’d suspect lack of interest in funding from Florida was probably also a factor. While it was originally a long distance route the bottom line is it’s not going to come back without state support from Alabama and Florida - nor is any other new service regardless of distance.


It was one of the alternatives in the study. That is one step short of a plan since in these studies, many alternatives are included and a few are eventually chosen for execution. At present only the NOL - Mobile alternative has been chosen for execution. The same study contained an alternative consisting of a Thruway Bus from Mobile to JAX too.

The study was also open ended in terms of time horizon for execution. It is still quite possible that either the Thruway or a daily NOL - ORL (which is what was in the study) could materialize. Politics changes over time. It is too soon to write anything off IMHO.

But the core problem is that there is insufficient ridership projected for the corridor to support a train that will meet Florida DOT's 40% cost recovery criteria within 5 years, and so FDOT has been sitting it out. This was the same reason that killed Silver Palm V1 which was a intra-Florida (JAX - ORL - TPA - MIA) day train after operating for a few years. Incidentally Amtrak in its recent ConnectUS plan is proposing that train again, but not the Mobile - JAX route.


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## Anthony V (Jul 18, 2021)

jis said:


> It was one of the alternatives in the study. That is one step short of a plan since in these studies, many alternatives are included and a few are eventually chosen for execution. At present only the NOL - Mobile alternative has been chosen for execution. The same study contained an alternative consisting of a Thruway Bus from Mobile to JAX too.
> 
> The study was also open ended in terms of time horizon for execution. It is still quite possible that either the Thruway or a daily NOL - ORL (which is what was in the study) could materialize. Politics changes over time. It is too soon to write anything off IMHO.
> 
> But the core problem is that there is insufficient ridership projected for the corridor to support a train that will meet Florida DOT's 40% cost recovery criteria within 5 years, and so FDOT has been sitting it out. This was the same reason that killed Silver Palm V1 which was a intra-Florida (JAX - ORL - TPA - MIA) day train after operating for a few years. Incidentally Amtrak in its recent ConnectUS plan is proposing that train again, but not the Mobile - JAX route.


Is it possible to amend 49 U.S. Code § 24102 (7) (the law that requires ANY new route, regardless of length, to be state-funded) to include a new Gulf Coast train to Florida in the federally-funded national network? If that can be done, it will make it much easier to get around the lack of funding from Florida problem.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 18, 2021)

Sure it can be done. It can be changed like any law. Whether there is political will to do it is an entirely different matter. It also opens up a Pandora's Box on why Florida got its line added to the National Network and full Federal support where other states have to pony up for their services. Although by all rights it should be since it hosted a long distance train.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 18, 2021)

Anthony V said:


> Is it possible to amend 49 U.S. Code § 24102 (7) (the law that requires ANY new route, regardless of length, to be state-funded) to include a new Gulf Coast train to Florida in the federally-funded national network? If that can be done, it will make it much easier to get around the lack of funding from Florida problem.


Of course it's possible to amend or repeal any law, but I don't think it's necessary here since you'd just be restoring service to an established but suspended route.


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## drdumont (Jul 19, 2021)

AMTRAK has been calling the NOL-JAX service loss an "Interruption", so they 
could avoid all the tsouris of getting govt. approval to abandon the route. It
is intuitively obvious to a second grader that this is a sham and AMTRAK should be
held accountable for this dishonesty. First it was "waiting for track repairs after the storm".
Then it was the old chestnut "freight congestion". Then it was "those nasty host railroads 
won't give us the clearance". Now it's this funding BS, and I believe the Alabama governor
is chiming in with obstruction. 
Anthony Z's great comment "It also opens up a Pandora's Box on why Florida got its line added to the National Network and full Federal support where other states have to pony up for their services. Although by all rights it should be since it hosted a long distance train." is on point.

Playing the game with multiple sets of rules is not good. But then, I am reminded of the
line in ***** Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: "RULES? IN A KNIFE FIGHT?".

I really really miss the connection from NOL to JAX. But a bus bridge? Should not even 
be on the table. There is no way that a bus trip of that length should be included in planning 
for AMTRAK. There is no comparison. Riding a bus is camping out.

If I want to camp out, I'll buy a tent.


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## jis (Jul 19, 2021)

drdumont said:


> I thought it was Alabama Governor who was holding things up.


Alabama Governor is pushing back on the NOL - Mobile service.

Currently there is neither funding nor political will for filling the Mobile to Orlando gap. Jacksonville is not the eastern terminus for any of the current train proposals since there simply is not enough traffic to justify it at all. Adding Orlando improves the situation a little.


> I really really miss the connection from NOL to JAX. But a bus bridge? Should
> not even be on the table.


I would also like the Miami - Key West connection restored. It would be really neat. 

More seriously, within Florida, restoring service via Ocala from JAX to Tampa would be far more productive than fiddling around with Mobile to Jacksonville. Even the proposed West Coast route from Tampa to Fort Meyers would have an order of magnitude or two more ridership than the Mobile - JAX segment. In addition to political skullduggery there are some legitimate reasons for Florida to prefer to fund several other routes before bothering with Mobile to JAX. Of course the current politics in the state leans towards funding nothing, including trying to control COVID. Go figure!


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## hlcteacher (Jul 20, 2021)

i would be ok with a bus bridge


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## neroden (Jul 20, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Chicago to Florida?
> 
> Huh! That doesn't make sense. The Crescent goes from NYP to NOL and is next to useless for getting to Florida. CHI-->NOL on the CONO, then overnight, then Crescent to Greensboro, then Piedmont/Carolinian to Raleigh/Cary then Silver to Florida? Is that what you are suggesting?
> 
> Am I missing something?



I was thinking, and talking, about the problem of going from New Orleans to Florida, not Chicago to Florida. Sorry about my total lack of clarity.


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## MisterUptempo (Aug 6, 2021)

STB denies Class Is' motion to dismiss Amtrak Gulf Coast case - Progressive Railroading



> The Surface Transportation Board (STB) has denied a motion from CSX and Norfolk Southern Railway to dismiss Amtrak’s request for the board to require the two Class Is to allow Amtrak to relaunch a Gulf Coast passenger-rail service.
> 
> In a ruling dated Aug. 5, the STB said its decision denies the Class Is’ motion to dismiss, denies as moot a request for an interim order regarding track access by Amtrak, establishes a procedural schedule and appoints an administrative law judge to resolve disputes in the matter.
> 
> ...


The board’s decision can be read here.


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## drdumont (Aug 6, 2021)

Glowry Be!!!

Looks like only NOL-Mobile. Is this just a baby step for NOL - JAX?

Now it is time to voice our opinions of support to our fearless elected leaders.


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## jis (Aug 6, 2021)

drdumont said:


> Glowry Be!!!
> 
> Looks like only NOL-Mobile. Is this just a baby step for NOL - JAX?
> 
> Now it is time to voice our opinions of support to our fearless elected leaders.


No. It is just to Mobile. Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more.


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## George Harris (Aug 6, 2021)

New Orleans - Mobile makes sense as a several times a day service to the various gulf coast points between these two. A train or two doing that was tried quite a few years ago. If Amtrak or the states would come up with some cash for grade crossing improvements and a few more sidings it would probably increase CSX's enthusiasm significantly. Don't even know how much NS is involved in this, probably just a short distance in approach to NOUPT. 

At one time in the past a relocation of the CSX track along the Mississippi coast something like between Bay St. Louis and Pascagoula was studied. A forbear making any comments on my thoughts on the report. Suspect someone who had a company doing studies for government agencies was given a political payback. Given the realities of the geography, I would think a realistic relocation would be about 25 feet or so straight up, double track and then you have a good interurban line with CSX throwing their freights between trains.


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## George Harris (Aug 6, 2021)

jis said:


> No. It is just to Mobile. Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more.


After the SCL-L&N merger, quite a bit of money was spent on upgrades on Flomaton to Pensacola to Tallahassee as making a shorter and more level route than that previously used for through traffic. Obviously sometime later someone in management changed their minds and then decided they did not need the line at all, so Pensacola is now effectively an end of branch out of Flomaton AL with a short line connection to the east.


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## drdumont (Aug 6, 2021)

jis said:


> No. It is just to Mobile. Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more.


Could you please explain the last sentence "Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more" ?
Thanks!


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## west point (Aug 6, 2021)

About the upgrades. CSX replaced a drawbridge just east of Pensacola with a flyover bridge. For Amtrak service there was a semi controlled siding with signals. The location was supposed to allow for opposite direction Sunsets to pass each other. Location lost in time. Bet it never happened due to a late train.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 6, 2021)

drdumont said:


> Could you please explain the last sentence "Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more" ?
> Thanks!


 I believe CSX sold the line to a short line operator.


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## jis (Aug 7, 2021)

drdumont said:


> Could you please explain the last sentence "Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more" ?
> Thanks!


That segment is not owned by CSX anymore. They sold it to a short line.


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## drdumont (Aug 7, 2021)

jis said:


> That segment is not owned by CSX anymore. They sold it to a short line.


Sounds like a ruse to derail AMTRAK from restoring The Sunset.


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## jis (Aug 7, 2021)

drdumont said:


> Sounds like a ruse to derail AMTRAK from restoring The Sunset.


I doubt it. There simply is not enough traffic on that segment to make it worthwhile for CSX to keep it, so they sold it. Besides, just because it is owned by a short line does not make it ineligible for use for an Amtrak train. It is of course another matter that neither Amtrak's ConnectUS plan nor the more elaborate 35 year plan put forth by the FRA contains that segment. Nor did the PRIIA 2008 Section 210 PIP for the Sunset Limited and Texas Eagle mention the Eastern extension of the Sunset except in passing in historical notes regarding suspension of service after Katrina. So unless a state - namely Florida, pushes for it, it is unlikely to happen. And so far Florida has just been sitting on the sideline at the Southern Rail Commission. They have not even paid their full membership dues, let alone commit to anything more.


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## DonNewcomb (Aug 7, 2021)

George Harris said:


> Don't even know how much NS is involved in this, probably just a short distance in approach to NOUPT.


I think you're right. Just a few miles of NS connect between Union Station in New Orleans and the CSX line out of town.


drdumont said:


> Sounds like a ruse to derail AMTRAK from restoring The Sunset.


The Sunset (NOL-FLA) was a train that really didn't work for anyone. IMHO, the current plan is better.


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## DSS&A (Aug 7, 2021)

NY Times article about battle to restore serive and STB decision to not dismiss the case:









An Obstacle to Amtrak Expansion That Money Won’t Solve


Amtrak and freight rail companies have long clashed over the use of railroad tracks, a dispute that is now playing out along the Gulf Coast, where the agency is seeking to restore service.




www.google.com


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## Anthony V (Aug 7, 2021)

According to the SRC, two daily RT's between NOL and Mobile are phase 1 of the project to restore Gulf Coast service. Phase two will be to extend one of those RT's to Florida. That being said, phase 2 is still a ways off, but from a host railroad negotiations standpoint, with most of the route in Florida now being owned by a short line, it should be far easier to restore the route to Florida than it would be if CSX still owned the Panhandle line, as short lines are usually far easier for Amtrak to negotiate with than the big Class 1s. Today, the biggest obstacle to restoring Gulf Coast service to Florida is political will.


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## jis (Aug 7, 2021)

Anthony V said:


> Today, the biggest obstacle to restoring Gulf Coast service to Florida is political will.


And lack of sufficient projected ridership. It has to be run as a political project with costs covered for an extended period of time at a level that Florida DOT has baulked at picking up in the past. That is what killed the first iteration of Silver Palm. Things, if anything, are worse in the Florida DOT at present. This implies that the federal government or someone else has to underwrite the operation as a charity project. That is the big problem it faces.

Purely from a Florida perspective, even if Florida DOT had the money and decided to spend it on passenger rail, it would be much better spent in re-establishing passenger rail service on the JAX - Tampa via Ocala route and on a new west coast route between Tampa and Fort Meyers, than chasing after the Pensacola - JAX route purely in terms of the number of people that will be served.


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## joelkfla (Aug 7, 2021)

jis said:


> And so far Florida has just been sitting on the sideline at the Southern Rail Commission. They have not even paid their full membership dues, let alone commit to anything more.


FL is not listed as a member on the SRC website.


Anthony V said:


> According to the SRC, two daily RT's between NOL and Mobile are phase 1 of the project to restore Gulf Coast service. Phase two will be to extend one of those RT's to Florida.


Source?


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## west point (Aug 8, 2021)

Has the Pensacola - JAX retained its MAX speed limits or have they been reduced ? What are the crew district lengths or have they changed to allow for out and backs every day ? If speeds have been reduced then forget ever getting Sunset or equivalent! back !~


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## Anthony V (Aug 8, 2021)

jis said:


> And lack of sufficient projected ridership. It has to be run as a political project with costs covered for an extended period of time at a level that Florida DOT has baulked at picking up in the past. That is what killed the first iteration of Silver Palm. Things, if anything, are worse in the Florida DOT at present. This implies that the federal government or someone else has to underwrite the operation as a charity project. That is the big problem it faces.
> 
> Purely from a Florida perspective, even if Florida DOT had the money and decided to spend it on passenger rail, it would be much better spent in re-establishing passenger rail service on the JAX - Tampa via Ocala route and on a new west coast route between Tampa and Fort Meyers, than chasing after the Pensacola - JAX route purely in terms of the number of people that will be served.


You'll never see passenger rail service return to the Ocala route because CSX rerouted most of its trains going south of Jacksonville onto that route following the opening of the Sunrail commuter rail line in Orlando.


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## jis (Aug 8, 2021)

Anthony V said:


> You'll never see passenger rail service return to the Ocala route because CSX rerouted most of its trains going south of Jacksonville onto that route following the opening of the Sunrail commuter rail line in Orlando.


Never is a very very long time. It is not clear that CSX will eventually remain in Florida at all. So we'll see, won't we?  They have already been trying to get rid of the Auburndale to West Palm Beach segment. Port of Tampa is still somewhat attractive for them, but given how aggressively they are shrinking their route structure to about half a dozen chosen high density routes who knows? Tampa traffic is already barely at the tipping point for them.


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## toddinde (Aug 8, 2021)

neroden said:


> What, no comments? Did I really say everything there is to be said about this?
> 
> Has Amtrak ever before gone to the STB (or before that the ICC) to demand its right to be hosted?


Yes, many times. You can search the decisions on-line. Two examples are the Downeaster and Vermont service where Amtrak actually used eminent domain to condemn a Guilford line.


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## toddinde (Aug 8, 2021)

jis said:


> Never is a very very long time. It is not clear that CSX will eventually remain in Florida at all. So we'll see, won't we?  They have already been trying to get rid of the Auburndale to West Palm Beach segment. Port of Tampa is still somewhat attractive for them, but given how aggressively they are shrinking their route structure to about half a dozen chosen high density routes who knows? Tampa traffic is already barely at the tipping point for them.


Yes, never is a long time. What the never gonna happen crowd is missing is the paradigm shift in the country and the necessity of rail for climate change. It will almost surely come to pass that many countries will impose tariffs on countries that don’t meet climate goals. Rail is a big part of a future that addresses climate change.


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## DonNewcomb (Aug 9, 2021)

toddinde said:


> Rail is a big part of a future that addresses climate change.


The mass of the vehicle per passenger, when powered by burning diesel, must be immense. More than a passenger car.


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## George Harris (Aug 9, 2021)

DonNewcomb said:


> The mass of the vehicle per passenger, when powered by burning diesel, must be immense. More than a passenger car.


However, the rolling resistance is much less. That makes the difference.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 9, 2021)

George Harris said:


> DonNewcomb said:
> 
> 
> > The mass of the vehicle per passenger, when powered by burning diesel, must be immense. More than a passenger car.
> ...


Not just the rolling resistance. There's a lot less aerodynamic drag on a train with, say, 10 coaches holding 75 passengers each that trails a single locomotive that's punching through the air, as compared to 750 cars, OK, 682 cars, as the average passenger car occupancy is supposedly 1.1.

I believe diesel trains can get as much as 1 mpg. With 750 passengers, that's 750 passenger miles per gallon. My car can get 120 passenger miles per gallon, but that's only if all 4 seats are occupied. Which rarely happens.


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## DSS&A (Aug 10, 2021)

The PTJ article states that the STB stated it would asign an administrative judge to resolve all ossues before the end of this year.









Gulf Coast Passenger Service One Step Closer Following STB Decision


Amtrak alleged that CSX and Norfolk Southern were dragging their feet and preventing it from resuming service east of New Orleans.




passengertrainjournal.com


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## toddinde (Aug 10, 2021)

DonNewcomb said:


> The mass of the vehicle per passenger, when powered by burning diesel, must be immense. More than a passenger car.


The train is by far and away more fuel efficient and less polluting than an ICE automobile.


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## GoAmtrak (Nov 4, 2021)

DonNewcomb said:


> https://www.sunherald.com/news/local/article252655053.html?
> 
> 
> Will Gulf Coast train passenger service start on Jan. 1? Amtrak asks feds to hurry


I'm surprised in a positive way how quick that seems to go, compared to other passenger rail projects where track/station upgrades take years to be completed, with years of delay. Is it really realistic the Sunset Limited goes from New Orleans to Mississippi or even to Mobile apart from 2022?

Amtrak looks quite confident in this case. Why they can't look that confident regarding other potential corridors in other parts of the US (like the Cleveland-Cincinnati line)? 

By the way, the Alabama State Port Authority doesn't want any passenger railway on the line. Hopefully they will be silenced. Amtrak man Magliari said the following: “As for the Port, we previously filed about two weeks ago their need to establish themselves as a party to the action.” Alabama State Port Authority: Amtrak’s return ‘would be calamitous’


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## IndyLions (Nov 6, 2021)

GoAmtrak said:


> I'm surprised in a positive way how quick that seems to go, compared to other passenger rail projects where track/station upgrades take years to be completed, with years of delay. Is it really realistic the Sunset Limited goes from New Orleans to Mississippi or even to Mobile apart from 2022?



While I see New Orleans to Mobile happening relatively soon, I don’t see the Sunset Limited (ever) extending east of New Orleans. I think Amtrak will be focusing their energies on the routes included in their ConnectUs plan.

In the next 5 years, the only LD expansion I envision is a daily Cardinal - which requires new equipment and a significant staff buildup before even that can happen.


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## Hytec (Jan 21, 2022)

The following was reported by local TV yesterday. 

- Amtrak confirmed it is hiring crews for the startup of New Orleans/Mobile service. Several of the crews have already been hired.

- Amtrak has taken over responsibility for improving the four stops in Mississippi, Bay St. Louis, Gulfport, Biloxi, and Pascagoula, by preparing to take bids from contractors to build, or improve platforms. Originally each city was to be responsible for the improvements.

- The STB will hold a hearing in February to determine if the plans to launch service can move forward.

This news is encouraging. Though progress remains painfully slow.


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## GoAmtrak (Jan 21, 2022)

Hytec said:


> The following was reported by local TV yesterday.
> 
> - Amtrak confirmed it is hiring crews for the startup of New Orleans/Mobile service. Several of the crews have already been hired.
> 
> ...


I regularely look at Google News if there are any news about developments concerning expansion. I didn't find anything recently. But this sounds encouraging. Compared to other future Amtrak routes, we seem to have come quite far  


Is Amtrak able to move forward faster in that matter because funding is secured? Or because they are working on it for a long time? Or because there is little doubt Amtrak is allowed to use the line again as it was stopped by a natural disaster, and not by stupid politicians?


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## lordsigma (Jan 21, 2022)

IndyLions said:


> While I see New Orleans to Mobile happening relatively soon, I don’t see the Sunset Limited (ever) extending east of New Orleans. I think Amtrak will be focusing their energies on the routes included in their ConnectUs plan.
> 
> In the next 5 years, the only LD expansion I envision is a daily Cardinal - which requires new equipment and a significant staff buildup before even that can happen.


possible daily sunset too (only current portion.)


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 21, 2022)

lordsigma said:


> possible daily sunset too (only current portion.)


A Daily Texas Eagle from Chicago to LA has been on the agenda for years.

Perhaps UP won't ask for Billions like they did before, now that the Sunset Route is mostly Double Tracked West of El Paso??!!!

I like the idea of running it from Ft Worth to El Paso vis the old T&P Route through West Texas, but since I live in Austin ,this would not help me()so perhaps Amtrak should run a stub Train between Ft Worth and San Antonio that would connect with a Daily Sunset and Eagle!


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## Burns651 (Jan 21, 2022)

I can see Amtrak's gears turning just fast enough in the next 5 years to issue a RFP and maybe bid request for additional equipment for the Cardinal, Sunset et. al. But given how it's taken since 2006 (yes!) from initial spec drafting to in-service for the Sumitomo-then-Siemens cars, I can't see how new cars will be in service within 5 years. Unless something off the shelf is ordered, but nowadays the wheel seems to be reinvented with each order.


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## jis (Jan 21, 2022)

Burns651 said:


> I can see Amtrak's gears turning just fast enough in the next 5 years to issue a RFP and maybe bid request for additional equipment for the Cardinal, Sunset et. al. But given how it's taken since 2006 (yes!) from initial spec drafting to in-service for the Sumitomo-then-Siemens cars, I can't see how new cars will be in service within 5 years. Unless something off the shelf is ordered, but nowadays the wheel seems to be reinvented with each order.


It is almost certain that any new single level car order will be off the shelf. As for what happens with bi-level orders, and if any are ordered at all, currently is up in the air, and unlikely to be resolved before the 2024-25 timeframe.


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## neroden (Jan 21, 2022)

Burns651 said:


> I can see Amtrak's gears turning just fast enough in the next 5 years to issue a RFP and maybe bid request for additional equipment for the Cardinal, Sunset et. al. But given how it's taken since 2006 (yes!) from initial spec drafting to in-service for the Sumitomo-then-Siemens cars, I can't see how new cars will be in service within 5 years. Unless something off the shelf is ordered, but nowadays the wheel seems to be reinvented with each order.


The indications are that all future orders are going to be single-levels. Most will be off-the-shelf. 

There may have to be some modifications for new sleeper and observation cars, but they certainly aren't going to be new carshell designs. Worst case is that someone has to be hired to build more Viewliner shells, which is possible despite CAF's difficulties. Best case is an off-the-shelf European sleeper which is already in mass production (depending on what's going on with the large sleeper car orders from Austrian Railways, which is defining the specs).


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## neroden (Jan 21, 2022)

I think the reason for the choice of this line as the test case is the sheer dishonesty and obstreperousness of CSX in making utterly bogus excuses to obstruct service, and the extremely well documented paper trail.

In other cases, the Class Is might have semi-legitimate complaints which would require actual money to address. This is the case where Amtrak can demonstrate to the STB that the Class Is are just being lawbreaking jerks. From a legal perspective, that's why you choose it as a test case.

It's also why CSX's hysterical sky-is-falling response is particularly stupid, legally speaking; CSX is giving Amtrak exactly what it needs and wants for its legal strategy before the STB.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Jan 21, 2022)

I do hope that this happens sooner rather than later - and of course, is a success. 

My two cents worth is that once Siemens was decided on, the process and overall order moved fairly quickly even with the water supply snafu's.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 1, 2022)

Looks like DOT has weighed in on this topic. And apparently in a good way, from our perspective.

Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC - DOT to STB: Order Gulf Coast Service Restored



https://dcms-external.s3.amazonaws.com/DCMS_External_PROD/1643047058751/51097.pdf


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## Amtrak709 (Feb 2, 2022)

I have been a little out of the loop in staying current with the Gulf Coast issue. I assume the focus is NOL-MOB. Restoration on to JAX is still just a pipe dream??????right????


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## jis (Feb 2, 2022)

AMTRAK709 said:


> I have been a little out of the loop in staying current with the Gulf Coast issue. I assume the focus is NOL-MOB. Restoration on to JAX is still just a pipe dream??????right????


Pretty much, at least for the time being. Ridership projections on MOB - JAX is just abysmal when compared to many other corridors within Florida that would be candidates for funding. Even Brightline which is committed to connect up Florida would not go anywhere near it.


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## Amtrak709 (Feb 2, 2022)

Thanks, jis, for the reply. Still fond memories of that day in April 1993 when service was restored NOL-JAX-MIA after years dormant. Also, the recent discussion of the Sunset Ltd accident in September 1993 in the AU forum has also prompted me to get better updated regarding this issue. Thanks again!


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## Tlcooper93 (Feb 4, 2022)

CSX seeks shipper support regarding proposed Amtrak Gulf Coast service (updated) - Trains


JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — CSX Transportation aims to round up shipper support before a Surface Transportation Board hearing this month regarding Amtrak’s controversial quest to launch passenger service on the Gulf Coast. In an email to the railroad’s customers, CEO Jim Foote asked shippers to sign a...




www.trains.com





Another amusing release from CSX today.


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## west point (Feb 4, 2022)

Someone posted elsewhere that what would happen to any shipper who did not send a letter. Rank intimation!


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## neroden (Feb 7, 2022)

jis said:


> Pretty much, at least for the time being. Ridership projections on MOB - JAX is just abysmal when compared to many other corridors within Florida that would be candidates for funding. Even Brightline which is committed to connect up Florida would not go anywhere near it.


In addition to what Jis says (which is correct), the tracks for MOB - JAX are in bad shape -- and even before everything, they've always had one really nasty, slow, indirect section from Mobile to Pensacola. Whereas the tracks from NOL to MOB are in fine shape and ready to run passenger trains on, despite the lies of CSX.


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## neroden (Feb 7, 2022)

west point said:


> Someone posted elsewhere that what would happen to any shipper who did not send a letter. Rank intimation!


CSX already has most of its shippers angry at it over other issues -- I wonder if this is going to backfire and lead shippers to send letters asking for CSX to be put in its place


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## DonNewcomb (Feb 15, 2022)

Local news Public hearings to bring Amtrak passenger service back to the Coast - WXXV News 25


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## George Harris (Feb 16, 2022)

The roundabout routing between Mobile and Pensacola is because there never was any intent to build a railroad between these points. Both the original line into Mobile from Montgomery and points north and the branch from Flomaton AL to Pensacola were built with the intent of providing hauling of material between inland and ports. The Pensacola to points east came along later and was never more than a branch line in L&N days. This included most of the life of the operation of the Gulf Wind, which was actually a fairly nice train for most of its life and lasted, although probably with only one coach in its last years, until Amtrak. 

As to track condition: The track between Mobile and Flomaton should be a good as any on the CSX system, as it definitely main line. Flomaton and east was given considerable upgrades after the takeover of L&N by SCL. Most of the line was relaid with welded rail, although probably second hand rather than new, and some sidings were extended and made into CTC signaled islands in the otherwise unsignalled line. The low level wood trestle with swing span across Escambia Bay was replaced with a high level concrete bridge, and these are just the changes I know about. How much this has been allowed to deteriorate I don't know, although I do know that CSX sent a letter to Amtrak at completion of the restoration of the line following the hurricane that the Sunset East could be restored. Amtrak chose not to. The Sunset East's poor timekeeping was due as much to the absolutely sorry timekeeping of the train west of New Orleans. 

Why CSX chose to sell of Pensacola to the east I have no idea. It really makes no sense to me. All alternatives to freight carried on this line are much longer and have much greater rise and fall in profile. While talking profile, New Orleans to Mobile is about as dead flat as any railroad in the country. The is the primary reason that "land barge" freights are practical. It is also why the issue of causing delay to passenger trains by being caught by very slow upgrade freight trains does not exist. CSX does not want to put one of these land barges in a siding, even if it were to be long enough because they are so underpowered it takes just short of forever to get the thing back up to 40 to 50 mph.

Quite a few years past there was a study about relocating the Mississippi Gulf portion of the line inland. It was, in my opinion, a fairly poorly done study. To do so is relatively pointless. If a relocation were to be considered, it should be by about 25 to 30 feet, straight up. This would eliminate the multiple grade crossing issues, and with minor bumps in profile should also be able to eliminate drawbridges.


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## neroden (Feb 16, 2022)

Hmm. New Orleans to Mobile is about 128 miles (or so). At 40 mph that is 3.2 hours. Even at 30 mph that's 4.3 hours. According to all reports, CSX is only running four trains a day -- two each way -- along the length of the line, plus a few shorter locals which should be much less underpowered.

CSX can easily fit some passenger trains into the schedule even if they blocked off the entire railroad for 17.2 hours a day for extremely slow, underpowered freight trains. That still leaves 6.4 hours to run passenger trains in, and the passenger trains are faster. Swap a pair in the morning (one east, one west); swap a pair in the evening (one east, one west). Shouldn't take up more than 4.4 hours if the passenger trains averaged 60mph. I made very pessimistic assumptions here.

I wish CSX were negotiating in good faith. 

Drawbridges may be an actual issue requiring regulatory petitions and changes, because of the Coast Guard's default "open whenever a yacht comes by at random" rule, but CSX and Amtrak could work cooperatively to get a special rule if they were a real issue -- and if CSX were willing to negotiate in good faith.


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## west point (Feb 16, 2022)

How often are the land barges stopped by open bridges?


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## DSS&A (Feb 17, 2022)

Trains just posted information about some of the discussions at the Feb. 16th STB meeting. Scheduling bridge openings was suggested by the STB. An interesting quote from the article is:

" .... A 3-minute response from CSX CEO Jim Foote, which began, “It’s called a pandemic,” clearly didn’t sit well with (STB member) Mr. Oberman, who responded, “You’ve spent $6 billion less on capital than stock buybacks over the past 11 years.”. This conversation appears to be pointed as to where CSX priorities have been and complaining about capacity problems that prevent better operating ratios and using more money to increase stock prices instead of increasing capacity, which is an interesting observation.

Here is the link:








Moorman, CSX, and Amtrak weigh in on second day of STB hearing: Analysis - Trains


WASHINGTON — Questions raised by Surface Transportation Board Chairman Martin Oberman and other board members Wednesday, during the second day of a hearing over Amtrak service on the Gulf Coast, pointed to the key issues on which the case will likely be decided. Following Wednesday’s conclusion...




www.trains.com


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## joelkfla (Feb 17, 2022)

DSS&A said:


> Trains just posted information about some of the discussions at the Feb. 16th STB meeting. Scheduling bridge openings was suggested by the STB. An interesting quote from the article is:
> 
> " .... A 3-minute response from CSX CEO Jim Foote, which began, “It’s called a pandemic,” clearly didn’t sit well with (STB member) Mr. Oberman, who responded, “You’ve spent $6 billion less on capital than stock buybacks over the past 11 years.”. This conversation appears to be pointed as to where CSX priorities have been and complaining about capacity problems that prevent better operating ratios and using more money to increase stock prices instead of increasing capacity is an interesting observation.
> 
> ...


Read the comments, too; particularly the one by Chris Thompson.


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## neroden (Feb 17, 2022)

DSS&A said:


> Trains just posted information about some of the discussions at the Feb. 16th STB meeting. Scheduling bridge openings was suggested by the STB.


Nice. STB seems alert.



> An interesting quote from the article is:
> 
> " .... A 3-minute response from CSX CEO Jim Foote, which began, “It’s called a pandemic,” clearly didn’t sit well with (STB member) Mr. Oberman, who responded, “You’ve spent $6 billion less on capital than stock buybacks over the past 11 years.”. This conversation appears to be pointed as to where CSX priorities have been and complaining about capacity problems that prevent better operating ratios and using more money to increase stock prices instead of increasing capacity, which is an interesting observation.



Excellent. Oberman is onto CSX's lies. The board has *five members*. Another couple of quotes:



> Board member Robert Primus added, “I want direct answers, and I don’t think we’ve got them.” The newest board member, Karen Hedlund, asked that CSX analyze in the March hearing “the additional benefits to the fluidity of your system from the improvements you are requesting that be made on behalf of Amtrak.”



Schultz came to the STB from SEPTA. That's four out of the five members of STB who I expect to be on the side of Amtrak... minimum. I don't know about Fuchs, but I do know Oberman prefers unanimous rulings.

Then there's Moorman's quote, which should have great impact since he was a freight railroad CEO *and* an Amtrak CEO:



> When he was at Amtrak in 2016, “and CSX said it was $2.4 billion [for the improvements necessary for passenger service] to go from New Orleans to Jacksonville — I say this with all due respect to my CSX friends — that was laughable.”



So, CSX is very likely to lose at the STB -- as they well should. They *should* just start cooperating.

But since the CSX CEO has proven himself to be (a) dishonest and (b) a jackass, I fully expect CSX to attempt to attack the STB's authority in federal court.

This would be a bad move; CSX & pals tried this with regard to on-time performance and lost decisively -- but more importantly, it would be openly picking a fight with their primary regulator, and the STB would hold a grudge. If CSX did that, then a request by the STB to Biden to include provisions in the next federal budget to crush CSX like a bug would, at that point, be received favorably and would probably get passed by Congress. And in the meantime, CSX's other pending cases at STB? Not likely to proceed once they're recognized as attacking the STB.

So CSX SHOULD start cooperating. I still bet they won't.


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## west point (Feb 17, 2022)

Neroden. Can it be that CSX will come close to breaking even having Amtrak? But would it have effect on the OR negatively?


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## neroden (Feb 17, 2022)

west point said:


> Neroden. Can it be that CSX will come close to breaking even having Amtrak? But would it have effect on the OR negatively?


The New Orleans - Mobile Amtrak trains? They wouldn't have any material impact on CSX's financial statements. At all. It might, in the end, increase CSX's operating ratio by something in the fourth decimal place, invisible due to rounding.

If Amtrak started hundreds of new services all over CSX territory, I suppose it might have an impact on their operating ratio. Even the entire Amtrak Connects plan wouldn't come close to having a noticeable impact though.

What we're looking at is an attitude problem. BNSF and CP currently have good attitudes. CSX has a bad attitude. It has nothing to do with financial realities, which are very similar for all the railroads.


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## Amtrak25 (Feb 18, 2022)

I just watched the You Tube for 3+ hours of Day 2/Feb 16.

The best Moorman-ism was "I have studied CSX for 40 years, and not fully understood them".

After Foote and his pandemic ramblings, and nobody wants to work anymore (you laid off how thousands of people ?) , Oberman pretty well refuted him by saying they are delaying their own CSX trains for hours on end as well as the other Class I's right on the main line with Gentilly yard issues. Nobody throughout ever mentioned the term "PSR" and how it is gunking up freight operations, rendering the sidings they have as useless.

Gardner was good in pointing out the GIGO concept of the PCT capacity modeling, inputting freight trains that do not exist (and probably would not until 2039) as data to force outcomes of capacity issues. CSX also does not use such models where they do not want to, such as Albany-Worcester, on a line they would not allow Amtrak another frequency unless paid a ransom, but just added a pair of stack trains..

The freight industry groups obviously drank CSX's Kool-aide and carried on and on about the supply chain issues and how Amtrak would make it worse. Funny, we never heard that term until the pandemic hit. One fellow from the NEC actually said it makes a profit (it doesn't), the subsidy per passenger ranges everywhere else (that is not an efficieny metric), and ideally public transit should get no subsidies.


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## jis (Feb 18, 2022)

Apparently the NEC fellow has not seen the latest from Amtrak on avoidable costs and ticket revenues.  

It would certainly appear to be time to bring a few of our misinformed NEC friends off their high horse and join the unwashed masses in the rest of the country on this matter.


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## DonNewcomb (Feb 18, 2022)

George Harris said:


> The roundabout routing between Mobile and Pensacola is because there never was any intent to build a railroad between these points.


That and geography. Mobile Bay is a big indentation in the coastline and a major seaport. Bridges needed to be placed above the head of navigation for oceangoing ships. The highways take shortcuts via tunnels that are not available to trains. However, there should have been a rail shortcut from Bay Minette to P'cola rather than having to make a hard right turn a Flomaton. 

Growing up in P'cola, my family would normally drive to Flomaton to catch the L&N Humming Bird to Chicago because the connection at P'cola was so bad.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 18, 2022)

DonNewcomb said:


> The highways take shortcuts via tunnels that are not available to trains.


That's not for any technical reason. After all, there are quite a few rail tunnels under estuaries and even open sea in operation -- under the Hudson and East Rivers in New York, under the Severn River north of Bristol, UK, the Channel Tunnel, and tunnels connecting the major Japanese Islands. There are also big long rail bridges that have clearance for oceangoing ships -- the Hell Gate Bridge over the East River, the Bencia-Marinez Railroad Bridge over the Carquinez Strait in California, the Oresmund Bridge connecting Denmark and Sweden, and the Storebaelt Bridge over the Great Belt in Denmark.


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## west point (Feb 18, 2022)

CSX may not want to disclose this. What are the openings for each month of the year for each bridge? How is each bridge operated? What kind of bridge is each of them - Swing, Bascule, Lift? I know the coast guard does not like swing bridges anymore. What is the operating time of each bridge both opening and closing? Does any bridge have closing problems much like the present Amtrak Portal bridge? Does CSX have recurring closing problems on one or more bridges that may need some resolution? It could be miter rails for some bridges may need improvements?

Not likely but maybe the Senators from LA, MS, & AL could get an earmark to build a parallel high bridge over the water crossing of the most difficult bridge. Make it Amtrak owned that would be too steep of grade for freight trains. Now if CSX wanted it more gentle=======


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## George Harris (Feb 19, 2022)

DonNewcomb said:


> That and geography. Mobile Bay is a big indentation in the coastline and a major seaport. Bridges needed to be placed above the head of navigation for oceangoing ships. The highways take shortcuts via tunnels that are not available to trains. However, there should have been a rail shortcut from Bay Minette to P'cola rather than having to make a hard right turn a Flomaton.
> 
> Growing up in P'cola, my family would normally drive to Flomaton to catch the L&N Humming Bird to Chicago because the connection at P'cola was so bad.


Well, my wife is from Pensacola, I have one child, two grandchildren, one great grandchild and some in-laws in Pensacola, so I have been going to the place regularly for the last 50 years and was recently there to see the other grandchild there get married, so I do know a little about the area.

If we wanted a high speed passenger link it should make a hard right turn just out of Mobile station wherever that happens to be and go into a tunnel under the Mobile River, pop up onto a low level bridge more or less parallel to I-10 and follow I-10 the rest of the way to Pensacola. If we want to simply provide a more direct railway line, then it should start from the east end of the current CSX series of bridges across the streams and rivers flowing into Mobile Bay. This would be at just east of the Tensas River bridge, at about Perkins Hurricane Landing. There are two drawbridges in this section, a vertical lift in the bridge over the Mobile River and a swing span in the significantly longer bridge over the Tensas River. The line would go in a generally ESE direction, passing south of Bay Minette AL and meeting the former BNSF former Frisco line into Pensacola just east of the Perdido River crossing which is at about Muscogee FL, near the FL state highway 184 crossing of the Perdido River, which by the way is not a major stream. It would then follow or use the ex Frisco line the rest of the way into town, needing a connection to the CSX line somewhere in the area where these lines are parallel, one on each side of US 29.

I played with these routes on topo maps, but this was something like 40 years ago, so I don't remember the exact distances involved, but the Tensas River to Perdido river line would have about 2/3 the length of new line and be well under half the cost of the more direct line paralleling I-10 because there would be no significant bridge work. Total Mobile to Pensacola distance would be in the range of 5 to 10 miles longer than the shorter line, but still would still be well short of going via Flomaton. The Mobile to Pensacola rail distance could be reduced by about 10 miles by simply going onto the ex-Frisco at Atmore AL and building the connection between the two lines mentioned previously. (The two railroads do not directly connect to each other in Pensacola, itself. Interchange between the two is awkward.)

Back when it looked line SCL / Family Lines was upgrading the P&A route they may have been willing to kick in some serious money for the Tensas to Perdido line.

The tunnel would be little more than the sunken tube type tunnels that are currently in place for I-10 and the older Bankhead tunnel, so there is no technological or engineering stretch to building a rail tunnel, nor the connecting low to mid-level multi-span bridge across the upper end of Mobile Bay parallel to I-10. The tunnel would be short enough that would be no significant ventilation requirements, nor would there be any real structural or technological challenges in the extensive bridge work.

(PS: I thought the Pensacola to Flomaton connection to the Humming Bird was a dedicated bus. The Bird was gone before I had any connection to the place.)


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 19, 2022)

For historical interest here are a couple of photos I took at the Biloxi MS station back in Spring 1972. The L&N passenger service had only quit the year before so the signboard still showed the trains. An attractive little station. I don't know if it is still there as I have never been back.





When I was stationed there me and a couple other officers attending electronics school lived in off base housing located right next to the tracks not far from this station. Our classes ran from 6 AM to Noon and there was a convenient L&N freight that came blasting through town around 5 AM, that was our alarm clock  One nice thing about the schedule is that it left the whole afternoon free for railfanning.


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## TWA904 (Feb 19, 2022)

I rode the Humming Bird in '68 from Birmingham going to Pensacola and the connection at Flomaton was a Greyhound bus, but not a dedicated one.


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## thetourman (Feb 20, 2022)

Mobile is in the process of moving their main airport to the Mobile Aeroplex at Brookley complex which is in the downtown area. 
If this Amtrak route is approved many would like to see the station near the airport. This would allow people flying to take Amtrak to the airport and be near the cruise line terminal.


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## joelkfla (Feb 20, 2022)

thetourman said:


> Mobile is in the process of moving their main airport to the Mobile Aeroplex at Brookley complex which is in the downtown area.
> If this Amtrak route is approved many would like to see the station near the airport. This would allow people flying to take Amtrak to the airport and be near the cruise line terminal.


I can't see how 2 trips a day would be of much use in getting from downtown to the airport.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 20, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> I can't see how 2 trips a day would be of much use in getting from downtown to the airport.


Actually it’s 4 trips, two in each direction. Yes I believe I got that wrong before too.


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## thetourman (Feb 20, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> I can't see how 2 trips a day would be of much use in getting from downtown to the airport.


 The Amtrak station would be very close to the airport. I believe more of building a transportation hub with the cruise ship, airport, train and maybe bus station all close together.


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## Cal (Feb 20, 2022)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Actually it’s 4 trips, two in each direction. Yes I believe I got that wrong before too.


They could've meant 2 round trips which is 4 trains. But I still don't see how 2 round trips is that useful.


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## jis (Feb 20, 2022)

Cal said:


> They could've meant 2 round trips which is 4 trains. But I still don't see how 2 round trips is that useful.


Whether it is useful or not depends on what is the expected demand.


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## joelkfla (Feb 20, 2022)

jis said:


> Whether it is useful or not depends on what is the expected demand.


It was meant specifically in respect to people taking the train to the airport, as that was suggested by a PP as a reason for moving the Mobile station.


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## Ryan (Feb 20, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> It was meant specifically in respect to people taking the train to the airport, as that was suggested by a PP as a reason for moving the Mobile station.



You can't move something that doesn't exist at the moment.

The airport is doing the moving, from a truly terrible location not close to anything to right next to downtown. Setting up shop at the new airport sounds like a great plan. Will it work for everyone? Of course not. But it gives people options, and options are good.


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## west point (Feb 20, 2022)

Would the Brookley airport station preclude service beyond Mobile?


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## Ryan (Feb 20, 2022)

No. Here's where a picture is worth a thousand words:



For context, the current airport in Mobile would be about 6 feet off to the left of your monitor. It sucks.


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## west point (Feb 20, 2022)

Ryan: Thanks. Been too long since I was in that area of Mobile and certainly did not know the proposed new station location. Thanks.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 21, 2022)

I could see where having the train station near the airport would be useful. Back when I was stationed in Biloxi I often flied out of Mobile. That required either getting a ride or having to leave your car at the airport if it was a short trip. If there had been a train I could have taken it instead.

Only memorable thing about the old Mobile airport was there was a cafe there that had good pecan pie, at least back in the 70's.


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## John Bredin (Feb 21, 2022)

I hope they'll put A station at the new airport rather than THE Mobile station. Nothing beats a downtown station.


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## neroden (Feb 21, 2022)

A Mobile Airport station would provide parking for people living in the Mobile area who wanted to take a train to New Orleans. A Mobile Downtown station would provide access to the tourist attractions for people FROM New Orleans (and the rest of the country) who wanted to come TO Mobile by train. They are not substitutes. The downtown station is essential for promotion of tourism in Mobile...


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## Tlcooper93 (Feb 23, 2022)

CSX asks for delay in Amtrak Gulf Coast hearing - Trains


WASHINGTON — CSX Transportation has asked for a delay in the evidentiary phase of the Surface Transportation Board hearing over Amtrak Gulf Coast service — but the public will not be informed why. A filing posted to the STB website today (Wednesday, Feb. 23) says the railroad “does not likely...




www.trains.com


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## jis (Apr 1, 2022)

STB has denied the mediation request made by CSX and NS









STB denies mediation request in Amtrak Gulf Coast case - Trains


WASHINGTON — The Surface Transportation Board has turned down a request to order mediation in the Amtrak Gulf Coast case. CSX Transportation, Norfolk Southern, and the Alabama State Port Authority/Terminal Railway Alabama State Docks had requested mediation, which Amtrak had opposed. In the...




www.trains.com


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## daybeers (Apr 1, 2022)

AMAZING!!!


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## jis (Apr 1, 2022)

We had a session with the Chairman of STB Martin Oberman, at the RPA Meeting via Zoom. He came across as a pretty non nonsense straight shooting kind of guy. Hopefully those videos will become available on Youtube soon.


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## Tlcooper93 (Apr 1, 2022)

jis said:


> We had a session with the Chairman of STB Martin Oberman, at the RPA Meeting via Zoom. He came across as a pretty non nonsense straight shooting kind of guy. Hopefully those videos will become available on Youtube soon.


Jis, forgive me for not knowing, but when you say 'we,' are you somehow involved with with RPA?
Wouldn't surprise me given your general knowlegde of all things railroad.


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## jis (Apr 1, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Jis, forgive me for not knowing, but when you say 'we,' are you somehow involved with with RPA?
> Wouldn't surprise me given your general knowlegde of all things railroad.


I am a Member of the RPA Council representing Florida. I was at the RPA Spring Meeting earlier this week in Alexandria VA, as was @pennyk, and a couple of other frequent participants in AU and related Facebook groups.

I am also a Patron of ESPA (NY) and NJ-ARP. in the past I was on the Board of NJ-ARP.

Currently I am on the Board of the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers, and also a member of the Florida East Coast Railway Society.


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## neroden (Apr 4, 2022)

In case y'all didn't know, Jeb's also involved with RPA and so am I, and probably several other of the regulars here


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## George Harris (Apr 5, 2022)

I really do not understand why NS or CSX or the Alabama State Docks are making this their absolute major stand on this particular route. It should have minimal effect on any of them. NS is very minimally involved and only in New Orleans itself, and any real or imagined interference with their operation could probably be remedied by the construction of a mile or so of new track. The CSX line is about as dead flat as any railroad in the country and apparently carries a few very long freights. Maybe construct a couple of 5 mile sidings and that would be good enough. After all, this segment is only about 145 miles between passenger stations, end to end. Of course with these underpowered trains, it probably takes them nearly a third of the distance to accelerate up to track speed, so once they finally get one moving they don't want it to have to slow down or stop. As to the Alabama State Docks, like NS they are only minimally involved and could probably become completely uninvolved by the construction of a couple miles of track along the waterfront. Plus, the Docks are an agency of the state of Alabama so, it is close to the state itself opposing the service, which makes absolutely no sense. I would think it would be better for all of these parties to save their fight for a situation where there could be real and provable harm to their operations.


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## Amtrak25 (Apr 5, 2022)

My guess is legal precedent setting, with Connect US seen as a threat, not that I see much of that happening anyway. I only wish they had made an issue of such a case where there is more grassroots and political support for new service, such as Montana and Idaho.


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## frequentflyer (Apr 5, 2022)

Amtrak pushes for passenger rail from Mobile to New Orleans, freight operators push back


U.S. Surface Transportation Board could decide case as high-stakes hearings begin into a long-running dispute with implications for passenger rail service in many other U.S. cities.




www.al.com





Amtrak is showing some real fight with railroads over this one. Apparently how this goes, goes the rest of the proposed regional lines across the country.

"The stakes are higher than the Mobile-to-New Orleans connection. Attorneys with CSX and NS remarked about the “historic” nature of this week’s proceedings with the future use of the nation’s railroads at play.


Mayors in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio and elsewhere testified to the STB in February that they want passenger rail in their communities, and that the decision on the Gulf Coats project will loom large in how they proceed."


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## Cal (Apr 5, 2022)

Amtrak25 said:


> My guess is legal precedent setting, with Connect US seen as a threat, not that I see much of that happening anyway. I only wish they had made an issue of such a case where there is more grassroots and political support for new service, such as Montana and Idaho.


This is what the RPA is making of it; This will set a precedent for years to come. If NS and CSX get away with it here, who says they (and others) won't do the same for every new route Amtrak tries?


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## jis (Apr 5, 2022)

Cal said:


> This is what the RPA is making of it; This will set a precedent for years to come. If NS and CSX get away with it here, who says they (and others) won't do the same for every new route Amtrak tries?


and hence the alleged obsession. It was explained in detail at the RPA meeting.


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## neroden (Apr 5, 2022)

The reason Mobile to New Orleans is a good "test case" for Amtrak is that there is absolutely *no* legitimate reason to complain about running a couple of Amtrak trains. 

This is a good case to prove that CSX is being a bunch of liars. Win the legally-easy case, and then we can work on the cases where the freight operators might actually have a reasonable complaint.

CSX is already parking their train in the place Amtrak would park. For longer than Amtrak would park it. No freight disruption.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 5, 2022)

Wow! Amtrak is gettin' feisty!


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## joelkfla (Apr 5, 2022)

neroden said:


> CSX is already parking their train in the place Amtrak would park. For longer than Amtrak would park it. No freight disruption.


OOPS! Pay no attention to that train behind the curtain! Do as we say, not as we do.


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## Tlcooper93 (Apr 6, 2022)

neroden said:


> The reason Mobile to New Orleans is a good "test case" for Amtrak is that there is absolutely *no* legitimate reason to complain about running a couple of Amtrak trains.
> 
> This is a good case to prove that CSX is being a bunch of liars. Win the legally-easy case, and then we can work on the cases where the freight operators might actually have a reasonable complaint.
> 
> CSX is already parking their train in the place Amtrak would park. For longer than Amtrak would park it. No freight disruption.



Wow people are dumb.


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## drdumont (Apr 6, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Wow people are dumb.


Care to illuminate that comment? Not that I totally disagree with you, but I'd like to better understand your comment.


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2022)

Gonna guess he's referring to CSX execs sabotaging their own case by parking their luxury private passenger train right where Amtrak would park.


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## hastybob (Apr 6, 2022)

To give an example of what the railroads want - here is some of what the NS is stating today that they need.
Extend the freight lead 9000 ft across 5 new bridges, making it a total of 12,000 ft.
At Elysian Fields where CSX ends connecting to the NS back belt, change out the diamond on one track and make that a switch with a crossover.
Rebuild at least 1 crossover and change it from hand throw to power switches.
Add 3-5 new powered crossovers
Redo the signals to handle all of this.

They showed video of the back belt and how the operations work. Trains stopped to change crews blocking one of the mains east bound, and another stopped changing crews westbound. With this happening both mains are blocked. AND, they say there is not operational changes that can be made to lessen the delays.

Watch it on Youtube and enjoy.

Bob


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## Tlcooper93 (Apr 6, 2022)

drdumont said:


> Care to illuminate that comment? Not that I totally disagree with you, but I'd like to better understand your comment.


My response was meant to be more rhetorically funny than anything else.

Neroden is right. Given that CSX is under siege so to speak, leaving a luxury exec train on the Amtrak siding is akin to leaving a gate open. It’s plain dumb.


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2022)

hastybob said:


> To give an example of what the railroads want - here is some of what the NS is stating today that they need.
> Extend the freight lead 9000 ft across 5 new bridges, making it a total of 12,000 ft.


Freight problem. Not Amtrak's problem. Only benefits freight. NS can run shorter trains, and should be if they aren't willing to lengthen the freight lead themselves.

An embarassing thing to request: a good way to get slapped down by the STB.



> At Elysian Fields where CSX ends connecting to the NS back belt, change out the diamond on one track and make that a switch with a crossover.
> Rebuild at least 1 crossover and change it from hand throw to power switches.
> Add 3-5 new powered crossovers
> Redo the signals to handle all of this.


That is all within reason and Amtrak would have been willing to negotiate about that if not for the utterly unreasonable requests



> They showed video of the back belt and how the operations work. Trains stopped to change crews blocking one of the mains east bound, and another stopped changing crews westbound. With this happening both mains are blocked. AND, they say there is not operational changes that can be made to lessen the delays.


Try having your trains change crews in the yards like a normal railroad, NS

Frankly, if NS claims there are no operational changes that can be made, I'll be happy to prove them wrong. Fire the CEO, make me CEO, I'll have it done in a month (considering the need for potential new hires).

And I'll make their stockholders a lot of money, too, by saving them the unnecessary expense of the multimillion dollar salaries which their moron executives are collecting for claiming that they can't do things which any untrained person could do successfully.

Surface Transportation Board should relieve the management of NS of the duty of running a railroad, since they're clearly incompetent. STB has the power to assign operations to someone else, in order to keep the freight moving, and anyone could do better than NS. STB should just take the railroad away from them.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 6, 2022)

Amtrak Connect has something to say to CSX on Twitter


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## hastybob (Apr 6, 2022)

To clear up a couple of things that was said - The NS would have a hard time changing crews in their yard. It is off the mainline and not directly along the mainline. A train would have to enter the yard, change crews, reverse out or change ends with the engines and then depart. They are unable to change crews on the other side of the river because they don't have trackage rights and crews are not qualified on the UP. 
The NS stated that they only want to be able to keep the "status quo" after the Gulf Coast trains are started. If they don't have this infrastructure changes, it would delay the Gulf Coast trains an average of 18 min and reduce the freight train speed average from 14.9mph to 14.4mph. 
They are also projecting the affects now and in 2039 and what would need to be done. It sounds like they want some now and others later. 

Basically, I see this as the railroad is not updating their infrastructure to accommodate the changes they have made in train handling - ie: PSR doubling the length of trains. A lot but not all would not be a problem if they were not running such long trains. 

Bob


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2022)

hastybob said:


> To clear up a couple of things that was said - The NS would have a hard time changing crews in their yard. It is off the mainline and not directly along the mainline. A train would have to enter the yard, change crews, reverse out or change ends with the engines and then depart.


Like normal then.

So, some perspective here: New Orleans is a dead end for NS. West of here NS owns NO TRACK. Anything going west of New Orleans is on foreign rails. If they're changing crews, they're doing one of two things:
(1) Handing the train to a completely different railroad. Good time to put it in the yard and inspect it for the handoff.
(2) Doing switching on the local branch lines in the New Orleans local region. Good time to put it in the yard and inspect it.

Are they handing off to UP? Do it in the UP yard. Are they handing off to BNSF? Do it in the BNSF yard. Are they handing off to CN? Do it in the CN yard. Are they handing off to KCS? Do it in the KCS yard. These are all a few feet from the end of NS track. Or they could hand off at the NS yard at the other end of their track, and let the foreign roads run their crews across the "back belt".

Their current practice is idiotic.

There's something utterly weird about NS's current practice; it's not normal and seems to have been invented as an excuse to mismanage the railroad.


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2022)

If NS continues to be asses, Amtrak should just grab the "back belt" by eminent domain and manage it properly. It's a short piece of track. Looks like about 7.5 miles.


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2022)

hastybob said:


> They are unable to change crews on the other side of the river because they don't have trackage rights and crews are not qualified on the UP.


Let's put this quite simply: the STB has the power to order UP to grant trackage rights on those couple of hundred feet of the UP and NS can qualify their crews. Lazy dumbasses in NS management.

I suppose the UP has trackage rights on NS and is qualifying its crews on NS, so there's no reason not to do it the other way. And UP has every incentive to grant those rights, since NS isn't *required* to let them do run through trains (it's perfectly legit for NS to drop the train in their own yard and have a switching job move the cars to UP)

This is a bogus, phony, lazy objection on the part of NS and the STB should slap them around hard for making such a complaint. "We're too lazy to run a railroad properly and we don't want to be forced to" is not a reasonable reason to object at the STB to Amtrak running passenger service.

"We want to delay things and switch crews on a busy mainline because we can't be bothered to lift a finger to run a railroad properly" is a good reason to revoke NS's operating licence and transfer it to a different manager, frankly. NS management are losers. I repeat: I could run the railroad better in my spare time. Unbelievably bad.


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## Acela150 (Apr 6, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Amtrak Connect has something to say to CSX on Twitter




#Savage 

LOL!


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## MARC Rider (Apr 6, 2022)

neroden said:


> Surface Transportation Board should relieve the management of NS of the duty of running a railroad, since they're clearly incompetent. STB has the power to assign operations to someone else, in order to keep the freight moving, and anyone could do better than NS. STB should just take the railroad away from them.


Has that ever been done before? It's not exactly nationalization, but it might make a difference in the way railroads are managed.

I wish the government had the legal authority to do something like that to the management of all "publicly-held" private sector companies to keep management from looting the company at the expense of the shareholders.


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## amtrakpass (Apr 6, 2022)

During WW 1 the railroads were nationalized and operated as the United States Railroad Administration for a few years. It is a different time of course nowadays and that probably won't happen again, but I do think it is way past time for the federal government to do a more forceful job of exercising their existing powers over the railroads to protect the interest of the travelling public, shippers and railroad workers who are being harmed due to the cancer of the PSR philosophy and ultra focus on short term profits at the expense of everything else that has taken over the railroad industry in the last 5 years or so much more than any time in living memory.


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## neroden (Apr 7, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Has that ever been done before? It's not exactly nationalization, but it might make a difference in the way railroads are managed.


Interstate Commerce Commission did it REPEATEDLY. 

The STB inherited the power though I don't think it's been used since the rename.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 7, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Has that ever been done before? It's not exactly nationalization, but it might make a difference in the way railroads are managed.
> 
> I wish the government had the legal authority to do something like that to the management of all "publicly-held" private sector companies to keep management from looting the company at the expense of the shareholders.


There is precedent in the takeover of the Conn River line from B&M where Amtrak seized the line via eminent domain on account of poor track conditions for the Montrealer. This was upheld by the US Supreme Court.

National Railroad Passenger Corporation v. Boston & Maine Corp


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## hastybob (Apr 7, 2022)

The NS crews would have to qualify about 5.5 miles from the end of the NS Back Belt to Avondale - UP/BNSF. This is across the Huey P. Long Bridge which is owned by the Public Belt railroad. A little more than a few hundred feet. Also, there is a lot of traffic across the bridge, so it would - in the railroad world - take several hours to run.
And, we are not accounting for CSX trains that run across the NS as a bridge route. They get stopped at the Industrial Canal with the 10,000+ ft trains, blocking the NS mainline and the Back Belt. I'm not saying another way can't be found just that these are some of the problems they encounter.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that there is proposal in New Orleans to eliminate a portion of the Back Belt, from East City Jct (where the NOUPT tracking starts) to the end of the NS track. The NOUPT trackage would be upgraded and double tracked to Carrollton Ave on the East connector and take the West connector (via a new wye connection) back to where the NS track currently ends. Probably a non starter-and should be, but it is still a proposal.


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## Amtrak25 (Apr 7, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> There is precedent in the takeover of the Conn River line from B&M where Amtrak seized the line via eminent domain on account of poor track conditions for the Montrealer. This was upheld by the US Supreme Court.



That was during the era of the first 25 year contract. When that expired in 1996, I am not sure weather or not such condemnations rights any longer apply.


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## danasgoodstuff (Apr 8, 2022)

Gulf Coast Battle: A Possible Solution - Railway Age for your consideration


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## joelkfla (Apr 28, 2022)

Just finished watching the STB hearings up to now on YouTube. After 8 days of testimony and questioning thru 4/19, they ran out of days when all the parties had time to meet, so the next session is scheduled on 5/9. CSX, NS, and the Port are done, and Amtrak is about halfway thru its case.

The railroads' experts have said that Amtrak's experts don't know how railroads operate (Amtrak's chief consultant has something like 52 years of transportation consulting), and Amtrak's experts are saying that the railroads' experts don't know how to gather data and build a model for the simulation software.

It's hard to tell how the Board is leaning. The railroad lawyers have accused the Board chair of advocating for Amtrak, but in fact there has been hard questioning of both sides. 

Chair Marty Oberman is kind of funny. The railroad lawyers will object to something based on standard courtroom procedure, and Marty will say, in so many words, "This isn't a courtroom, I want the information to come out, and I'll do whatever I darn well please."


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## acelafan (Apr 29, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> Just finished watching the STB hearings up to now on YouTube. After 8 days of testimony and questioning thru 4/19, they ran out of days when all the parties had time to meet, so the next session is scheduled on 5/9. CSX, NS, and the Port are done, and Amtrak is about halfway thru its case.
> 
> The railroads' experts have said that Amtrak's experts don't know how railroads operate (Amtrak's chief consultant has something like 52 years of transportation consulting), and Amtrak's experts are saying that the railroads' experts don't know how to gather data and build a model for the simulation software.
> 
> ...


It was good to watch...the funniest part I found was on Day 6 at 4:10 on the timeline when Oberman was asking the rail modeling witness about "operational changes" that the freight RRs could make to avoid interfering with the passenger trains (like, running the freights earlier or later, etc). Trying to get a straight answer out of the witness was really comical.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 29, 2022)

oh my god, he's great! 

(good taste in art too)


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## joelkfla (May 12, 2022)

The STB hearing wrapped up today -- sort of.

After 11 days of testimony spread over 6 weeks, the Board told both parties to go away and come back in 30 days with more data, or more accurately, the right data. Or even better, work it out and settle amongst themselves.

A tool called RTC is used to model a railroad's operations, and to test the effect of changes. The railroads modeled 2019 operations and anticipated operations in 2039, without Amtrak trains, with Amtrak trains, and with Amtrak trains and a bundle of hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of infrastructure improvements. Amtrak submitted no models, claiming the data they got from the railroads was incomplete, inflated, and unreliable.

Chairman Marty Oberman said he doesn't care about 2039, because the statute in question says nothing about mitigating alleged future impacts of Amtrak running, and it's not the taxpayers' responsibility to fund improvements to support freight growth. He wants the railroads to model the near-term effects of a smaller package of improvements suggested by the Southern Rail Commission. He suggested Amtrak model the effects of operational adjustments if they think that will be enough to avoid unreasonable impairment of freight, using the railroads' data even if they don't completely agree with it.

Marty and other board members said the optimal solution would be for the parties to try to get along and work together for a settlement, since they have a lot more expertise in running railroads than do the board members.


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## Anthony V (May 13, 2022)

Considering the reasons Amtrak started this case and took NS, CSX, and the Port of Mobile to the STB in the first place, does this mean that the Gulf Coast Amtrak service case is stalled indefinitely, and that the STB won't continue the case unless the host railroads provide the railroad operating information they've been trying so hard to hide from Amtrak?


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## joelkfla (May 13, 2022)

Anthony V said:


> Considering the reasons Amtrak started this case and took NS, CSX, and the Port of Mobile to the STB in the first place, does this mean that the Gulf Coast Amtrak service case is stalled indefinitely, and that the STB won't continue the case unless the host railroads provide the railroad operating information they've been trying so hard to hide from Amtrak?


No, they have 30 days to provide more info, which may be extended for good cause. The hearing will be resumed sometime after that, regardless of whether or not the parties submit more evidence. Then the Board will issue a ruling: for the railroads, or for Amtrak, or somewhere in between.

The issue. as stated by the Board, is not the railroads' refusal to give Amtrak their data. IMO, the issue is that each side was presenting evidence for their own most extreme position, with no room for compromise. The Board wants evidence on the effect of less extreme options, like making operational adjustments or building a subset of the requested infrastructure improvements, and focused on the near term, not 17 years in the future.

The Board chair, Marty Oberman, seems like a no-nonsense guy who has said more than once that the public interest is the highest priority. I don't think he will allow this slip indefinitely.


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## Anthony V (May 13, 2022)

joelkfla said:


> No, they have 30 days to provide more info, which may be extended for good cause. The hearing will be resumed sometime after that, regardless of whether or not the parties submit more evidence. Then the Board will issue a ruling: for the railroads, or for Amtrak, or somewhere in between.
> 
> The issue. as stated by the Board, is not the railroads' refusal to give Amtrak their data. IMO, the issue is that each side was presenting evidence for their own most extreme position, with no room for compromise. The Board wants evidence on the effect of less extreme options, like making operational adjustments or building a subset of the requested infrastructure improvements, and focused on the near term, not 17 years in the future.
> 
> The Board chair, Marty Oberman, seems like a no-nonsense guy who has said more than once that the public interest is the highest priority. I don't think he will allow this slip indefinitely.


That's reassuring. Thank you.


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## DonNewcomb (May 26, 2022)

Anthony V said:


> Considering the reasons Amtrak started this case and took NS, CSX, and the Port of Mobile to the STB in the first place, does this mean that the Gulf Coast Amtrak service case is stalled indefinitely, and that the STB won't continue the case unless the host railroads provide the railroad operating information they've been trying so hard to hide from Amtrak?



Does anyone else believe that perhaps Amtrak could get the information they need from state traffic cameras or other available sensors?


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## CCC1007 (May 26, 2022)

DonNewcomb said:


> Does anyone else believe that perhaps Amtrak could get the information they need from state traffic cameras or other available sensors?


Like the live stream camera that Amtrak put up and streamed to the internet?


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## DonNewcomb (May 27, 2022)

CCC1007 said:


> Like the live stream camera that Amtrak put up and streamed to the internet?


Not too familiar with that but for instance, all CSX's Gulf Coast traffic rolls right past the depot in Gulfport. Mississippi and the local community are all for passenger service restoration. If Amtrak asked nicely the city would probably set up some sort of train-cam, car counter or whatever, just for the advancement of the project.


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## TWA904 (May 27, 2022)

Somewhere back when Amtrak first announced the NO - Mobile service didn't CSX say that 8 - 10 more trains could be added on those lines without causing any congestion problems.


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## jis (Jun 13, 2022)

STB grants Amtrak access to NS, CSX data, orders mediation - Trains


WASHINGTON — The Surface Transportation Board will allow a limited number of Amtrak personnel access to raw train data used by CSX Transportation and Norfolk Southern so the passenger operator can run its own Rail Traffic Controller capacity modeling study. In a decision issued Friday, the STB...




www.trains.com


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## west point (Jun 14, 2022)

Will NS & CSX now go to court? Delay, delay, delay.


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## jis (Jun 14, 2022)

west point said:


> Will NS & CSX now go to court? Delay, delay, delay.


Why would they go to court? They wanted mediation, they got mediation.


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## west point (Jun 14, 2022)

They will go to court when the STB makes an award to Amtrak. Guaranted that no matter what STB says they will delay delay delay. Too many egos involved.


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## jis (Jun 14, 2022)

west point said:


> They will go to court when the STB makes an award to Amtrak. Guaranted that no matter what STB says they will delay delay delay. Too many egos involved.


Depends on how the mediation clause is written I suppose. Typically, agreeing to mediation often involves also agreeing to accept its determination. But of course we will see.


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## west point (Jun 14, 2022)

Mediation means that both parties reach an agreement on all points. Arbritration means a third party sets the terms not the two parties. These RRs have too much at stake and will not agree to any compromise. Arbritration will then be offered which the RRs and probably Amtrak will not accept. The RRs will just keep asking for mediation extensions until the STB finally says no more. 

IMO STB will set conditions which these RRs will take it to court. Shopping for a friendly judge probably in the 5th circuit court of apppeals jurisdiction. The 5th circuit has many RR friendly judges and the 5th circuit appeals court is too business friendy.


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## tricia (Jul 6, 2022)

The battle that will determine the future of American passenger rail: Amtrak has money to expand, but it doesn’t own the railroad tracks. A stalled effort along the Gulf Coast is a test of its ability to grow. Washington Post 7/6/22


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## joelkfla (Jul 6, 2022)

tricia said:


> The battle that will determine the future of American passenger rail: Amtrak has money to expand, but it doesn’t own the railroad tracks. A stalled effort along the Gulf Coast is a test of its ability to grow. Washington Post 7/6/22


Here is an unlocked copy of the article:


https://wapo.st/3AveiBy


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