# Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)



## BrianPR3

There's an amtrak derailment so far 2 pictures from congressman patrick murphy of PA
https://twitter.com/PatrickMurphyPA/status/598302528447651841

https://twitter.com/PatrickMurphyPA/status/598299221561896960

a sprinter looks to be involved with overturned cars

WCAU with live coverage

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Amtrak-Derailment-Philadelphia--303536331.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_PHBrand

UPDATE


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## Ryan

The Facebooks says 188.

The Northeast corridor rail fans group is full of posts - one of them is a news guy posting photos from their control room.







Looks bad, bad, bad. Reportedly 601 was leading.


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## Paulus

This looks like it's an ugly one.


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## George K

"The train started to shake" and then derailed. 8 - 9 cars derailed, and 50 injured.


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## Grandpa D

Looks like some are on their sides. http://www.breakingnews.com/topic/amtrak-derailment-in-philadelphia/


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## desertflyer

Several sources say train 188 entered a corner at a high rate of speed and the first few cars potentially rolled. Unreliable information at this point. Shocking pictures.






Source: https://twitter.com/cbsnewspath/status/598305568177139713


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## SarahZ

Paulus said:


> This looks like it's an ugly one.


Oh my god.


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## Ryan

Live on CNN.

Congressman Patrick Murphy is onboard and tweeting pictures.


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## Paulus

Early reports are that it hit a freight train, which would explain the destruction of that one car.


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## Seaboard92

It looks pretty rough. Probably high rate of speed. Or maybe it picked a switch


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## Bob Dylan

How sad, hopefully there are no deaths!

We appreciate the updates from those with access and inside info, the local news stations are doing their usual " if it bleeds it leads!" sensationalism! Sigh


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## desertflyer

Source


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## Ryan

Paulus said:


> Early reports are that it hit a freight train, which would explain the destruction of that one car.


Read that as well, but haven't seen anything that looks like a freight train on the TV coverage.



jimhudson said:


> How sad, hopefully there are no deaths!


Given that picture, that looks impossible.


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## Bierboy

jimhudson said:


> How sad, hopefully there are no deaths!
> 
> We appreciate the updates from those with access and inside info, the local news stations are doing their usual " if it bleeds it leads!" sensationalism! Sigh


Seriously?! You don't think this is big news? It's horrible and certainly merits lead news coverage.


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## R30A

If the car was a deadhead it is possible. No chance in hell if it had people on it though, especially if it was full.


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## chrsjrcj

CNN just said it collided with a CSX freight train.


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## Ryan

Looks like a line of tank cars along the bottom of the screen - someone smart on the geography want to help out?


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## Bob Dylan

Bierboy said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> How sad, hopefully there are no deaths!
> 
> We appreciate the updates from those with access and inside info, the local news stations are doing their usual " if it bleeds it leads!" sensationalism! Sigh
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?! You don't think this is big news? It's horrible and certainly merits lead news coverage.
Click to expand...

I agree totally!, My point is that its apparent that the locals don't know what they're talking about and spreading rumors and giving out scare stories! We have this every time there's a media blitz about passenger train mishaps! 
CNN is doing a very good job, the local Fixed Noise Station it's usual terrible job!

As Joe Friday said, " Just the facts ma'am!"

Thoughts and prayers with everyone involved, looks like the first responders and able passengers and crews are doing a heroic job!


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## amamba

This is so horrible and so tragic. I am praying for all on board 188.

Just saw a clip on my local news and came here to see what info might be available.


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## reppin_the_847

Looks at least as bad as the Metro North commuter rail crash that happened recently. Really hoping for the best here. Looks like a devastating accident.


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## edjbox

aCS 64 #601 appears to be standing upright


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## Bierboy

jimhudson said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> How sad, hopefully there are no deaths!
> 
> We appreciate the updates from those with access and inside info, the local news stations are doing their usual " if it bleeds it leads!" sensationalism! Sigh
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?! You don't think this is big news? It's horrible and certainly merits lead news coverage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree totally!, My point is that its apparent that the locals don't know what they're talking about and spreading rumors and giving out scare stories! We have this every time there's a media blitz about passenger train mishaps!
> CNN is doing a very good job, the local Fixed Noise Station it's usual terrible job!
> 
> As Joe Friday said, " Just the facts mam!"
Click to expand...

Well the CNN app still has nothing about the crash on it and Fox News is doing excellent coverage of the crash.


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## Bob Dylan

I'm watching CNN, MSNBC and Fox live, and they're all doing a good job!, I was talking about the local ambulance chasing reporters here in Austin, not National coverage!


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## Guest

Was this a CSX crash with freight train, sabotage or train going too fast or defect with Sprinter?

While Acela costs more, may be more prudent and safer to take Acela at this point in time.


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## Acela150

The curve at that this incident occurred at is rated for 50 mph. I can almost guarantee someone took this curve way to fast.

http://acela150kid.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2826706

Photo shows the curve.

There is a yard there that holds transfer cars from Pavonia (Camden) South Philly and Abrams yard. That yard holds mostly tanks. This yard is owned by Conrail Shared Assets.


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## Ryan

Thanks for the picture. The train coming towards us is heading in the direction this train was? The tank cars we're seeing are on the tracks on the right?


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## Paulus

Acela150 said:


> The curve at that this incident occurred at is rated for 50 mph. I can almost guarantee someone took this curve way to fast.


I thought Amtrak had a PTC system to prevent that on the NEC?


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## sitzplatz17

This looks like an absolute disaster. Terrifying pictures coming in from the site.

Really, really hoping that that first car was empty for one reason or another.


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## Ryan

Press conference coming shortly. This guy on CNN talking about the Capital Limited/MARC collision doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.


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## daniel3197

Very SADLY if another train derailed INTO the PATH of this train almost nothing could prevent this derailment.

This looks like the scenario that happened with this Amtrak derailment in North Philadelphia 5-12-15.

Prayers to all those impacted with this derailment tragedy.

---- Daniel


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## Ryan

sitzplatz17 said:


> Really, really hoping that that first car was empty for one reason or another.


That's what prevented Chase from being a lot worse. It'll be a miracle if that happens again.


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## Ryan

daniel3197 said:


> Very SADLY if another train derailed INTO the PATH of this train almost nothing could prevent this derailment.
> 
> This looks like the scenario that happened with this Amtrak derailment in North Philadelphia 5-12-15.
> 
> Prayers to all those impacted with this derailment tragedy.
> 
> ---- Daniel


I think that it's way too early to say what this looks like. We can't even see the whole scene.


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## Bob Dylan

Thanks for the update Steve, good to have a local that knows the territory and railroads as a source!

Ex Rep Murphy, D-PA. tweeted that a US Senator got off the train in Wilmington, missed the name?

MSNBC is ripping Amtrak for poor communication regarding the disaster!


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## sitzplatz17

Just saw a picture of the inside of the cafe car.

Looks really bad.

Note it's a somewhat graphic image so click with caution.

https://twitter.com/kemrichardson7/status/598320256759758848


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## The Chief

https://twitter.com/NJerzyFireAlert

reported early on "3rd Alarm struck. This is reportedly a Amtrak train vs a Freight Train."

etc

Just advised me his deets from FD radio scan feed.

Philadelphia No. 188 NE Regional derail


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## AmtrakBlue

jimhudson said:


> Thanks for the update Steve, good to have a local that knows the territory and railroads as a source!
> 
> Ex Rep Murphy, D-PA. tweeted that a US Senator got off the train in Wilmington, missed the name?
> 
> MSNBC is ripping Amtrak for poor communication regarding the disaster!


Most likely the Senator's name starts with a C since our two Senator's and our rep all have last names starting with C. 

It was Carper that got off in Wilmington.


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## Ryan

Location - train was going left to right on the tracks across the track. Most of the cars are in the grassy triangle below the tracks (outside the curve). ACS-64 is to the right of the footbridge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0014204,-75.0934065,227m/data=!3m1!1e3


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## Chey

ABC news (radio) is saying 60+ injured and "unconfirmed dead."


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## Guest

Amtrak tends to be very safe overall. Portal bridge had a defect and was fixed after previous derailment, but I have not seen a cause to this crash. I myself tend to like Amtrak over bus on this route and I am hoping everyone is okay. Hundreds of transportation accidents occur all the time unfortunately.

Cause needs to be determined so they can fix the problem. With the Sprinters, it should have been hard to speed over the rails like this. Could have been a rail problem that was overlooked, a defect with the Sprinter, sabotage. I think conductor speeding is the least likely senario but it has happened before on other railroads, like metro north but amtrak generally has not had speeding problems.

i havent seen any CSX freight train images so I dont know if that was an issue.


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## FormerOBS

Lots of self-appointed experts have already posted lots of crap about what caused the wreck, what is wrong with Amtrak, how we should have a national maglev system, etc. Obviously idiots. Be careful what you believe.

Tom


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## TinCan782

Guest said:


> Was this a CSX crash with freight train, sabotage or train going too fast or defect with Sprinter?
> 
> While Acela costs more, may be more prudent and safer to take Acela at this point in time.


Lets give it time for FACTS to be revealed!


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## Ryan

From FB. Hopefully the engineer is OK.


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## Triley

FormerOBS said:


> Lots of self-appointed experts have already posted lots of crap about what caused the wreck, what is wrong with Amtrak, how we should have a national maglev system, etc. Obviously idiots. Be careful what you believe.
> 
> Tom


Thank you for speaking up and out about this. I thought I was the only one feeling like that here, but am too shaken to speak up. I just came through the area last night.

Prayers for our brothers, sisters, and passengers onboard.


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## Slayer Essence

There are some pictures on Facebook of the ACS-64, it looks pretty intact so I don't think this was a head on collision between anything. I just hope everyone is ok and that a Sprinter defect wasn't the cause of the accident.


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## CHamilton

From the video, looks like at least 6 cars plus an ACS-64 derailed. I'm watching helicopter footage on http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Amtrak-Derailment-Philadelphia--303536331.html


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## Ryan

Triley said:


> FormerOBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of self-appointed experts have already posted lots of crap about what caused the wreck, what is wrong with Amtrak, how we should have a national maglev system, etc. Obviously idiots. Be careful what you believe.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for speaking up and out about this. I thought I was the only one feeling like that here, but am too shaken to speak up. I just came through the area last night.
> 
> Prayers for our brothers, sisters, and passengers onboard.
Click to expand...

Thirded. Thoughts and prayers with the victims and first responders are sufficient for tonight. We'll get our answers as soon as they're available.


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## chrsjrcj

Crazy to think that I photographed that engine right when it entered service on the Northeast Corridor in March of 2014. Ironically, I was taking Amtrak to Philadelphia. Hopefully that's the only loss.


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## The Chief

Philadelphia No. 188 NE Regional derail

Street Map *RED* dot location


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## sitzplatz17

601 looks quite banged up but is upright.

That should hopefully mean the engineer is ok.


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## jebr

So sad to see and hear of this. 

Prayers to all affected.


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## SarahZ

Ryan said:


> Thirded. Thoughts and prayers with the victims and first responders are sufficient for tonight. We'll get our answers as soon as they're available.


Ditto. That helicopter footage is making me shiver. I can't thank first responders and hospital personnel enough. I'm so glad there are people willing to do those jobs.


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## Ryan

More from FB:


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## PRR 60

What adds to the chill factor is that the location of this wreck is the exact location of the 1943 PRR Labor Day wreck. That was one of the worst accidents in USA rail history.


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## spacecadet

Position of the wreckage makes it look to me like it just had too much speed going around the curve. Locomotive just kept going off the track, first car hit something, following cars derailed and rolled until the train stopped.

Hope that first car was empty. Usually that's biz class and at this time of night might be pretty empty.


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## PRR 60

CSX says that there was no freight train involvement with this wreck.


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## Ryan

Or a problem with the rail - way too soon to tell.

Doesn't look likely that it was a freight collision, but way too soon for much of anything.


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## AlexandriaVATraveler

There's nothing we can do with the situation on the ground, so I'd like to ask what this will mean for operations in the short term (commuters, regional intercity, and LD) as well as rolling stock inventory.


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## Paulus

There are additional reports that a SEPTA train got blasted with something shortly before this derailment, with the engineer's cab glass smashed, and came to a halt before being passed by the Amtrak train which derailed.


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## AlexandriaVATraveler

There's nothing we can do with the situation on the ground, so I'd like to ask what this will mean for operations in the short term (commuters, regional intercity, and LD) as well as rolling stock inventory.


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## jebr

From Facebook:



> Injuries reported in incident, all Amtrak service canceled this evening between New York and Philadelphia
> 
> 
> This evening, Amtrak Northeast Regional Train 188, operating from Washington to New York derailed north of Philadelphia. There were approximately 238 passengers and 5 crew members on board. Initial reports are that several passengers have been injured and taken to local medical facilities for treatment. Local emergency responders are on the scene and an investigation is ongoing.
> 
> Northeast Corridor service between New York and Philadelphia is suspended.
> 
> Additional updates will be provided when available.


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## PRR 60

This is a 60mph limited curve.


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## George K

PRR 60 said:


> CSX says that there was no freight train involvement with this wreck.


Actually, they said they have "no evidence" that there was freight involvement. That's a different statement.


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## CHamilton

The Chief, thanks for the map. Here's the Google view. You can see the pedestrian overpass in the helicopter video that's being broadcast.

https://goo.gl/maps/X9eHK


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## jebr

Just heard on CNN...5 confirmed dead.


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## Ryan

Press conference with Mayor confirms at lest 5 fatalities.


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## George K

Philadelphia officials (Mayor, police commissioner, homeland security) say 243 individuals on train. 5 dead. 7 cars and engine disrupted.


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## Guest

Officials just reported 5 dead. Preliminary.


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## Guest

Hmm, not sure what happened, since the first car didn't derail but did get damaged so it may not be a comnector issue. And seems to lean towards intentional sabotage of the trains.


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## Ryan

Guest said:


> Hmm, not sure what happened,


Should have stopped there. The first car is definitely derailed.


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## Bob Dylan

Philadelphia Mayor just confirmed 5 Dead and 50+ transported for Serious injuries, broken bones, lacerations, bruises etc.

And thanks for the update Bill, as I said to Steve, its good to have info from those that know the territory and also railroads!

Hopefully no AU friends are among those injured or deceased!!!


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## oiky

At least we have some info there from the mayor and fire chief, I find the American news coverage so abrupt though, too much speculation also


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## Guest

I think you missed the point. The first car was upright and seemed to have seperated from the other cars but was banged up even if it technically was off the rails.

A combination of seperation of cars and locomotive along with the damage to the front car makes me think it was something other than just a fault with the tracks and my guess is sabotage based on what I have seen. If there was a track problem, cars would have all just derailed together. If car was speeding then there would have been a different pattern as well. Someone understood how to derail this train car and people were reporting something went on with another SEPTA train as well and it seems like someone wanted to block off the North eastern corridor. That is how I see it right now. Anyone else see it this way or see anything that they may add which couod have been overlooked. Information is still coming in.


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## northnorthwest

Terrible. After 11 years in the city I love Philly tremendously. They will do their best to take care of the injured.

Just took the Crescent from WAS to ATL last night into today. Life is infinitely complicated with "news" big and small happening everywhere every second. These events remind us to appreciate what we have now and not get caught up in all the small things, however difficult that can be. Take care, everybody.


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## jis

The location is just east (towards New York) of Shore interlocking where the NJT Atlantic City trains split off from the NEC.


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## FormerOBS

Much of the speculation from "legitimate" news media is incredibly inept. Reporter said a "window was clearly broken." No, it was an emergency exit window that had been removed. Self-appointed experts don't even know 188 was a northbound train. As I said, be careful what you believe. These reporters make yowling cats sound intelligent. There have been references to the Chase wreck, the Capitol/Marc wreck, the grade crossing accident in Amite, and probably others. I'm waiting for comments about the Hindenberg and Casey Jones. All totally irrelevant.

Tom


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## jebr

Service Alert from Amtrak:



> Amtrak Northeast Regional Train 188 at North Philadelphia
> Injuries reported in incident, all Amtrak service canceled this evening between New York and Philadelphia
> 
> May 12, 2015
> 11:15 p.m. ET
> Business hours: Amtrak Media Relations, Washington: 202 906.3860;
> email: [email protected]
> After hours: weekends & holidays: 800 562.1904
> This evening, Amtrak Northeast Regional Train 188, operating from Washington to New York derailed north of Philadelphia. There were approximately 238 passengers and 5 crew members on board. Initial reports are that several passengers have been injured and taken to local medical facilities for treatment. Local emergency responders are on the scene and an investigation is ongoing. Northeast Corridor service between New York and Philadelphia is suspended.
> Persons with questions about their friends and family aboard this train have a special number to call for information: 800-523-9101.
> 
> Additional updates will be provided when available, including on the Amtrak blog: http://blog.amtrak.com/2015/05/amtrak-northeast-regional-train-188-north-philadelphia/
> Amtrak regrets any inconvenience. This information is correct as of the above time and date. Information is subject to change as conditions warrant.
> Passengers with travel plans can confirm their train's status, change their plans or review refund information using a range of tools – including Amtrak.com, smartphone apps or by calling 800-USA-RAIL. Service Alerts, Passenger Notices and other announcements are posted at Amtrak.com/alerts.
> To be notified of service disruptions on the Northeast Corridor (including Acela Express, Northeast Regional and other corridor services), follow @AmtrakNEC on Twitter.
> 
> ​


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## Jon Parker

Guest said:


> I think you missed the point. The first car was upright and seemed to have seperated from the other cars but was banged up even if it technically was off the rails.
> 
> A combination of seperation of cars and locomotive along with the damage to the front car makes me think it was something other than just a fault with the tracks and my guess is sabotage based on what I have seen. If there was a track problem, cars would have all just derailed together. If car was speeding then there would have been a different pattern as well. Someone understood how to derail this train car and people were reporting something went on with another SEPTA train as well and it seems like someone wanted to block off the North eastern corridor. That is how I see it right now. Anyone else see it this way or see anything that they may add which couod have been overlooked. Information is still coming in.


I'm sorry, but you don't have any actual information to provide unfortunately. All any of us have are some dark, spotty pictures of overturned and mangled cars. There is nothing in any of the pictures that can be seen from the internet to suggest "sabotage". Maybe there was excessive flange wear on the 3rd car that caused the derailment? Maybe the rail rolled over? The physics of train derailments cannot be predicted from crappy photos taken at night with light provided from flashlights. Anything said right now is just speculation.


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## Ryan

So correct, it deserves to be repeated twice.

Random "expert" on MSNBC just raised wheel failure as a possible cause. Sounds as plausible as any other.


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## Bob Dylan

CNN just quoted an " eye witness" as saying he heard an explosion and saw a fire ball in the first car before it came off the tracks and imploded!

Several interviews with passengers that were on the train and phone videos from an NBC producer that was aboard 188 as well as Rep. Murphy's tweets and pics!

There will be plenty of info and evidence for the NTSB to work with on this one for sure!

Also, according to MSNBC, a Fire Chief now reports at least 6 dead with several in critical condition @ area hospitals and said that there are bodies underneath the destroyed car!

Secondary searches are now occurring and there is a lot more light on the scene making it easier to see the destruction!

Tom is correct, there is a lot of so called " experts" giving out bum information and wild speculation on what has occurred and why!


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## Ryan

With the exception of this Larry guy, the MSNBC coverage seems to be actually pretty decent. Sounds like the local NBC affiliate.

Whoever they have in the chopper is amazingly clueful.


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## AlexandriaVATraveler

It seems almost inevitable that the count of fatalities will rise, unfortunately.


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## Jake

Looks to me like high speed in the curve caused the derail! The car thats ripped in half looks like it hit one of those huge I beams that hold up the electric wires. You can see the beam bent and curled into whats left of that car.If_ you look at the area with Google street view you can get the idea.Even the Loco looks to have been on its side ant one point and then righted itself somehow. Im no expert but looks like what happened to me._

_Its sad._


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## jis

The mangled car is now marked with a big number one, presumably denoting it was the first car of the train. There is a car marked with a big two which is the first intact car with a big hole in its roof, and the car following that has a big three written on it all in some sort of reddish paint.


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## RampWidget

CNN interviewing 3 pax live via telephone at this moment...


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## jebr

There's some chilling photos and videos on Vox.


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## Ryan

OK, this Larry guy is a full on idiot. 25-30 MPH, and clearly a side impact?


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## ALC Rail Writer

Comparing past accidents that have been investigated by officials and ongoing accident scenes is like comparing apples to apple seeds. You can't draw any meaningful conclusions that way...

I will say that bad as this looks (and no doubt will get as the night winds on) it could have been much worse. Amtrak's worst accident in at least 15 years and over 90% survived, less than half seriously injured. Oftentimes transportation accidents result with 100% casualties.

edit for clarity, jis.


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## jis

Not on trains. Indeed I can't even think of the last mainline train accident with 100% casualties!


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## CHamilton

Ryan said:


> With the exception of this Larry guy, the MSNBC coverage seems to be actually pretty decent. Sounds like the local NBC affiliate.
> 
> Whoever they have in the chopper is amazingly clueful.


Yes, I give NBC 10 high marks for not speculating. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Amtrak-Derailment-Philadelphia--303536331.html


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## eblkheart

Just throwing this out there... but it looks like the front or near the front of the locomotive looks a bit charred. Am I the only one thinking this?


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## Orie

Some panels came off on the front right of the train, I don't think it's charring. Just missing front panels.


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## Reekay

CNN had a "Civil Rights Lawyer" talking about how "collapsible cars" weren't installed on the train and how that could have been a factor. *Facepalm* These people could have called me up if they were looking for information. I'm pretty sure I could have provided more information than some of their "Experts"


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## acelafella

why havent the news agencies mentioned that this is practically at the exact spot where the Pennsy's Congressional

derailed in Sept 1943 killing 79. I believe that the 50mph speed restriction on this s-curve dates from that wreck.


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## Ryan

Because they don't know that.


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## CHamilton

acelafella said:


> why havent the news agencies mentioned that this is practically at the exact spot where the Pennsy's Congressional
> 
> derailed in Sept 1943 killing 79. I believe that the 50mph speed restriction on this s-curve dates from that wreck.


It was mentioned on the local NBC affiliate.


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## RampWidget

Good grief... I thought CNN coverage & "experts" were bad... FOX is worse and their talking heads are as lost as last year's Easter egg...


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## ALC Rail Writer

Wikipedia already got that detail in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankford_Junction_train_wreck#Similar_accidents



acelafella said:


> why havent the news agencies mentioned that this is practically at the exact spot where the Pennsy's Congressional
> 
> derailed in Sept 1943 killing 79. I believe that the 50mph speed restriction on this s-curve dates from that wreck.


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## Ryan

MSNBC seems to have dumped Larry and has resumed clueful discussion without crackpot theories.


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## ALC Rail Writer

I'm curious as to what's in those tank cars, anybody have any word?


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## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> MSNBC seems to have dumped Larry and has resumed clueful discussion without crackpot theories.


True this! CNN and FOX are now letting babbling " experts" spout theories as clueless anchors ask idiotic questions!


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## RampWidget

Ryan said:


> MSNBC seems to have dumped Larry and has resumed clueful discussion without crackpot theories.


yeah, I'm going over there. The FOX talking head just asked if the locomotive was the Quiet Car.


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## Guest

I enjoy how they refer to the engine as 'the front car with the wind shield"


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## FrmThruwayBusMgr

RampWidget said:


> Good grief... I thought CNN coverage & "experts" were bad... FOX is worse and their talking heads are as lost as last year's Easter egg...


So NTSB folks that are being interviewed by Fox is bad? Keep showing your Fox bias!


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## jis

That is the Conrail yard and it is quite normal to find tank and other freight cars there.


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## RampWidget

ALC Rail Writer said:


> I'm curious as to what's in those tank cars, anybody have any word?


The ones I can see aren't placarded, so it's not hazmat.


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## ALC Rail Writer

jis said:


> That is the Conrail yard and it is quite normal to find tank and other freight cars there.


Yes, but I'm curious as to if anything was in them. I've read unsubstantiated rumors that they were filled with unknown "chemicals", I'd appreciate if anybody had any better information...


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## ALC Rail Writer

RampWidget said:


> The ones I can see aren't placarded, so it's not hazmat.


Good to know!


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## AlexandriaVATraveler

Guest said:


> I enjoy how they refer to the engine as 'the front car with the wind shield"


Awkward wording for certain, but not really all that technically inaccurate.

Bear in mind that you don't know how much any of these talking heads ride trains, and even if they did, you wouldn't really expect them, as journalists, to know the technical details and technical jargon. And their audience is in largely the same boat, so sneer away if you must.


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## jis

I am waiting for CNN to bring in the lost Malaysian Airline flight into the discussion somehow


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## RampWidget

FrmThruwayBusMgr said:


> RampWidget said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief... I thought CNN coverage & "experts" were bad... FOX is worse and their talking heads are as lost as last year's Easter egg...
> 
> 
> 
> So NTSB folks that are being interviewed by Fox is bad? Keep showing your Fox bias!
Click to expand...

Don't know who you are, but you know nothing about me and what I do or don't watch. And just because someone is with the NTSB doesn't grant them magic powers of accurate speculation. That's more a hindrance than a help, IMO.


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## SarahZ

jis said:


> I am waiting for CNN to bring in the lost Malaysian Airline flight into the discussion somehow


Don't jinx it.


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## Alexandria Nick

ALC Rail Writer said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the Conrail yard and it is quite normal to find tank and other freight cars there.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I'm curious as to if anything was in them. I've read unsubstantiated rumors that they were filled with unknown "chemicals", I'd appreciate if anybody had any better information...
Click to expand...

CHEMICALS is my favorite "scary term."

Practically everything is a chemical!


----------



## RampWidget

jis said:


> I am waiting for CNN to bring in the lost Malaysian Airline flight into the discussion somehow


Lol


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

jis said:


> I am waiting for CNN to bring in the lost Malaysian Airline flight into the discussion somehow


Have they brought out any 3D simulations yet? You know those GPUs are grinding as we speak!


----------



## AlexandriaVATraveler

Dihydrogen monoxide,perhaps?



ALC Rail Writer said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the Conrail yard and it is quite normal to find tank and other freight cars there.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but I'm curious as to if anything was in them. I've read unsubstantiated rumors that they were filled with *unknown "chemicals*", I'd appreciate if anybody had any better information...
Click to expand...


----------



## Agent

Interesting Track-A-Train screenshot on this Twitter post: http://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/598336725195296768.


----------



## PRR 60

A 100% unconfirmed report with a screenshot from Amtrak's Track-a-Train shows Train 188 entering the curve from the west at 106mph. That would be grossly overspeed for this curve, and overspeed for the railroad approaching the curve. If that is true, it is very, very bad.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

lol, and oldie but a goodie!



AlexandriaVATraveler said:


> Dihydrogen monoxide,perhaps?


----------



## Guest

FOX News just wheeled out SUlly for expert commentary.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

PRR 60 said:


> A 100% unconfirmed report with a screenshot from Amtrak's Track-a-Train shows Train 188 entering the curve from the west at 106mph. That would be grossly overspeed for this curve, and overspeed for the railroad approaching the curve. If that is true, it is very, very bad.


Mostly unconfirmed, but not 100%. A local news reporter claims Amtrak "source" confirmed that Amtrak knows how fast the train was going and that it was "very fast".

https://twitter.com/AdamTuss/status/598336116786372609


----------



## Eric S

Ryan said:


> MSNBC seems to have dumped Larry and has resumed clueful discussion without crackpot theories.


Seems you may have written that too soon. He was back just a bit ago. Maybe this time he is gone for good.


----------



## PRR 60

A similar report from the NBC Washington transportation reporter indicates that Amtrak already knows the speed of the train as it entered the curve from a remote data downloaded from the ACS-64. The Amtrak "source" told him that the train was traveling "very fast" entering the curve.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

FBI at this point is saying it doesn't appear to be a act of terrorism. IF the train was doing 106 Why did it go that fast and why didn't the systems in place stop it? maybe a medical issue with the engineer and he slumped over on the throttle?


----------



## Eric S

If the signals and such were working properly, what would happen if a train was traveling at 106mph entering a 50mph curve? Would it force an automatic speed reduction?

I don't mean to speculate that this is what happened - just wondering how the system is designed to work.


----------



## SarahZ

106?

Could this be one of those goofy GPS issues, like when my walking app says I'm walking 8 mph because of a hiccup? The speed on my app usually resolves itself a minute later. I imagine the same happens with Track-a-Train, as it isn't perfect either.

I'm not saying the train wasn't speeding, but 106 seems a bit odd, considering the speed limit in that area.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

amtrakwolverine said:


> FBI at this point is saying it doesn't appear to be a act of terrorism. IF the train was doing 106 Why did it go that fast and why didn't the systems in place stop it? maybe a medical issue with the engineer and he slumped over on the throttle?


If we're entertaining random speculation, the first thought in my head was something involving the new engines.

There were probably multiple factors involved so it's important to avoid too much rampant speculation.

That being said one really has to hope it's not the new engines.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

The curve is rated for 50, what is the speed limit prior to that one?


----------



## jis

Depends on whether ACSES has been cut into service there or not. No one so far seems to have definitive knowledge about it. So hard to answer. Without ACSES the train would have a clear at the last signal and it would be upto the engineer to obey the speed limit. With ACSES the engine would automatically enforce the speed limit and do a penalty application to stop too IIRC. Of course then again someone could goof in programming the transponder at Shore too. Many possibilities. Best to wait for NTSB.


----------



## neutralist

This tragedy will not happen with PTC. Needs to be fully funded.


----------



## PRR 60

ALC Rail Writer said:


> The curve is rated for 50, what is the speed limit prior to that one?


I believe the speed approaching the curve from the west is 80mph.


----------



## mwmnp

The best aerial view I've seen yet from the helicopter circling the site. The rear of the train is at the bottom of the frame; the locomotive at the top.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Wow! If true, 106 is extremely over speed as Bill said!

Hopefully the engineer wasn't of the same mindset as that depressed pilot that recently crashed the plane into the mountains in Europe!

And wouldn't the Dispatcher, Conductor(s), as well and the Engineer, know if the train was overspeeding since they are all qualified on the NEC??


----------



## CHamilton

The mayor of Philadelphia says that there will be another update at 11 AM ET. He does not anticipate any further news until then. SEPTA and Amtrak are both likely to be down in that area through the rest of the week.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

PRR 60 said:


> I believe the speed approaching the curve from the west is 80mph.


So 106 or not, if they are going about 80 and don't reduce speed coming out of that straightaway, they flip.


----------



## Jon Parker

jimhudson said:


> Wow! If true, 106 is extremely over speed as Bill said!
> 
> Hopefully the engineer wasn't of the same mindset as that depressed pilot that recently crashed the plane into the mountains in Europe!


Seems like an incredibly inefficient way to achieve that goal, if one had that in mind.


----------



## SarahZ

I cannot even begin to handle the idiocy on Facebook right now. Most people are posting the usual "prayers" stuff, but the Tin Foil Hat Brigade is starting to show up.

These exchanges, and there have been several, make me want to tear my hair out:

Tin Foil: Outlaw all trains! They aren't safe! When is this lunacy going to end?!?

Logical People: Trains are safer than cars.

TF: That's just your opinion.

LP: *statistics* *links* *citations*

TF: Whatever. You can believe what you want. That's just, like, your opinion.

LP: It's not our "opinion". It's scientific fact.

TF: Well I choose not to believe your opinion. I'm allowed to have my opinion, and you can have yours.

LP: FACTS ARE NOT OPINIONS.

TF: Wharrragggggarrrbbblllllllllllll...

I would have more respect for people if they said, "I know that trains are safer, but I'm scared." Okay. Fine. People feel the same way about planes. Phobias are phobias. But don't sit there and look at facts and figures from multiple, credible sources and call them "opinions". :angry:


----------



## Bob Dylan

Excellent post Sarah!

This also applies to those dimwits and charlatans who deny Climate Change and make moronic statements such as " I'm not a Scientist....!" and "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!"

Same mindset that made abominations like the ex-communication of Galileo, The Inquisition,Hitler's and Stalin's Purges, the Crusades and the Salem Witch Hunts possible!


----------



## Guest

I thought Sprinters were equipped with technology to prevent speeding.

It could turn out to be a case just like the Metro North incident where conductor was speeding. If so then the equipment to prevent speeding should be mandatory.


----------



## CHamilton

The mayor of Philadelphia says that there will be another update at 11 AM ET. He does not anticipate any further news until then. SEPTA and Amtrak are both likely to be down in that area through the rest of the week.

Amtrak updates are here: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251628184602

and on the Amtrak blog: http://blog.amtrak.com/2015/05/amtrak-northeast-regional-train-188-north-philadelphia/
Amtrak is saying that they will be posting a service plan for Wednesday "soon."


----------



## Bob Dylan

CNNs Talking Head just called a picture of one of the Amfleets involved in the derailment " The Caboose of the train!" and said it's "..obvious that the driver was going too fast before the wreck.."


----------



## Guest

Unfortunately no deadhead equipment on this train.

ACS64 601

Business 81528

Coach Q/C 82776

Coach 82644

Cafe 43346

Coach 82761

Coach 82797

Coach 82981


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Amtrak released this statement at 1:15 ET



> Update on Train 188 of May 12 at North Philadelphia Fatalities confirmed by local officials, Family Assistance Center opened, Hotline staffed
> 
> *May 13, 2015*
> 
> *1:15 a.m. ET*
> 
> *Business hours: Amtrak Media Relations, Washington: 202 906.3860;
> email: [email protected]*
> 
> *After hours: weekends & holidays: 800 562.1904*
> *We are deeply saddened by the loss of life from Amtrak Northeast Regional Train 188 that derailed north of Philadelphia Tuesday evening. We ask the news media to be respectful of our customers, our employees, and their families.*
> 
> *There were approximately 238 passengers and 5 crew members on board. Individuals with questions about their friends and family on this train should call the Amtrak Incident Hotline 800-523-9101. Amtrak has also established a Family Assistance Center to work closely with family and friends of individuals on the train. *
> 
> *Local emergency responders are on the scene and an investigation is ongoing. Northeast Corridor service between New York and Philadelphia remains suspended. A service plan for Wednesday, May 13, will be announced soon.*
> 
> *Additional updates will be provided when available, including on the Amtrak blog: http://blog.amtrak.com/2015/05/amtrak-northeast-regional-train-188-north-philadelphia/*
> *Amtrak regrets any inconvenience. This information is correct as of the above time and date. Information is subject to change as conditions warrant.*
> 
> *Passengers with travel plans can confirm their train's status, change their plans orreview refund information using a range of tools – including Amtrak.com,smartphone apps or by calling 800-USA-RAIL. Service Alerts, Passenger Notices and other announcements are posted at Amtrak.com/alerts.*
> 
> *To be notified of service disruptions on the Northeast Corridor (including Acela Express, Northeast Regional and other corridor services), follow @AmtrakNEC on Twitter.*
> ​


At 2:45 AM this statement was posted on the blog along with this addendum:



> On Wednesday, May 13, modified Amtrak service will be provided between Washington and Philadelphia, Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and New York and Boston. There will be no Amtrak service between New York and Philadelphia, but New Jersey Transit will honor Amtrak tickets between New York City and Trenton.Other Amtrak Service between New York and Albany-Rensselaer; New Haven and Springfield, Mass., and other points will operate.
> 
> Additional updates will be provided when available.


----------



## mflsjhs

has anybody given an idea of how long the PHL-NYP section of the NEC will be down?


----------



## cirdan

Guest said:


> I enjoy how they refer to the engine as 'the front car with the wind shield"


better than calling the caboose I suppose.


----------



## mlhughes0522

Here is what I think amtrak going do today

Due to NEC shutdown PHI-NYP

Amtrak 80/79 will run CLT-RMT on 5/13

Amtrak 80 depart CLT 7:00a arrives RMT 11:52a

Amtrak 79 depart RMT 3:11p arrives CLT 8:12p

Amtrak 90/89 will run SAV-RMT on 5/13

Amtrak 90 depart SAV 8:20a arrives RMT 2:52p

Amtrak 89 depart RMT 3:30p arrives SAV 10:05p 1hr 6mins late

NEC Va

174 Norfolk,va - Washington,dc

94 Newport News,va- Washington,DC

86 Richmond,va-Washington,dc

84 Richmond,va-Washington,dc

66 Newport News,va-Washington,dc

67 Washington,dc-newport news,va

93 washington,dc-Richmond,va

85 Washington,dc-Richmond,va

95 Washington,dc-Newport news,va

125 Washington,dc-Norfolk,va

176 Lynchburg,va-Washington,dc

171 Washington,dc-Lynchburg,va

Amtrak 20 New Orleans-Washington then bus service to New York

Amtrak 19 Washington-New Orleans bus service from New York depart 1hr late

Amtrak 92 /98 Florida - Washington then bus service to New York

Amtrak 91/97 Washington-Florida bus service New York to Washington depart 1hr late


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Let the "If I ran the railroad" speculation begin. hboy:


----------



## The Davy Crockett

I just love how you now have to be a TWITterer to find out the status of things. :blink:


----------



## Ryan

mflsjhs said:


> has anybody given an idea of how long the PHL-NYP section of the NEC will be down?


Many days. Lots to clean up and rebuild, and they can't start until the NTSB says so.

A NEC engineer I know says they crew is all alive, for a tiny sliver of good news.


----------



## VentureForth

Just woke up to this and read through all the posts. What a tragedy! I, too, thought that full PTC was implemented in the NEC. Don't know why I thought that, other than I believed it was a requirement for 150 mph corridors (regardless of the 50 mph curve where this incident happened).

I, for one, am intrigued by the various speculations. Throw out all the theories, then throw away the bad ones. I read yesterday Isis was planning an attack somewhere to make Americans think. This is the exact forum to discuss and dismiss.

As for the media, Fox is no different than the others. All have idiot talking heads, all speak to a kindergarten IQ, and all sometimes get parts right.

This will be a long investigation. Amtrak and the travelling public will be better from this. There will be improvements made wherever discrepancies are found.


----------



## Ryan

First daylight picture I've seen. The leftmost catenary support looks bent over, particularly on the left side, with no obvious (to me) cause...


----------



## chrsjrcj

Wow. Never thought I'd see a train bustituted on the NEC.


----------



## frequentflyer

The tight lock couplers show their worth again, kept the train together.


----------



## andersone

Theses things remind me of how fragile a life we lead.

They call them accidents not on purposes

Let us pray it is not the latter


----------



## cassie225

Thank God there were no more tragedies than there were, but could be more as they start to clean up the wreckage. Any report of any AU's onboard? So sad.Looks like if he hit that curve going to fast,something like this was bound to happen,just like what happens in a car when you hit a curve going too fast,you're going to come off the road. Not an expert,don't claim to be just an observation.


----------



## leonb

Does anyone know who owns and manages the track in this area?

Thanks,

Leonard


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak.


----------



## leonb

Thanks!


----------



## Ziv

When I saw the picture of the shredded #1 car my eyes refused to recognize what it was. I thought it was a burst cylinder of some sort. Good lord! The Santiago de Compostela tragedy came to mind when I saw the corner, but it is looking nowhere near that bad. Hopefully we don't see too many more fatalities in the hours to come.

Best wishes to all involved!


----------



## John Bobinyec

Ryan said:


> First daylight picture I've seen. The leftmost catenary support looks bent over, particularly on the left side, with no obvious (to me) cause...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1431512538.342756.jpg


Once the train gets tangled up in the catenary, it'll pull the supports down.

jb


----------



## MARC Rider

Oh my God, what horrible news to see first thing in the morning. I was wondering about the TV vans in front of both Baltimore Penn and Washington Union stations. What's really chilling for me was that I was riding 188 last night. (I got off at Baltimore.) We left Washington about 10 minutes late, they told us that the equipment was delayed. Also, the consist seemed to be 7 cars instead of the usual 8. Other than that, the ride from Washington to Baltimore was unremarkable. Hope no more deaths are reported, and that NTSB figures out what happened quickly and corrective action can be taken so this sort of thing doesn't happen again.


----------



## Ryan

John Bobinyec said:


> Once the train gets tangled up in the catenary, it'll pull the supports down.
> 
> jb


That's what I was thinking. It's amazing to me that the catenary has the tensile strength to pull a pole over like that. Those are some pretty stout I beams.

Comparing the picture to the overhead imagery, it looks like one support is totally missing (which is probably what destroyed the one car that's in real bad shape).




Counting back from the pedestrian bridge, you can see the two undamaged poles (green), the missing pole (red) and the bent over one (yellow).


----------



## Tracktwentynine

Ryan said:


> First daylight picture I've seen. The leftmost catenary support looks bent over, particularly on the left side, with no obvious (to me) cause...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1431512538.342756.jpg


I would guess that that leftmost catenary support was hit by the locomotive or one of the leading cars when it initially derailed. The last two cars, which are in line with the track, derailed but they'd been slowed by the impact and so stayed roughly on the line of the track past the initial point of derailment.


----------



## Ryan

That was my first thought, but it's the inside of the curve that leans over further, which didn't make sense for a collision to knock it over. The catenary pulling it down makes more sense, if it has the strength to do so.


----------



## claire

Is there anyone who's questioning the safety of the train with no seatbelts? Six have died so far today in a derailment in Philadelphia. Many traumatic injuries. How are trains exempt from seatbelt requirement?


----------



## jis

Do not discount the effect of the stout crossbeams that connect the left and right posts in each pair. If the right post gets knocked out the left post will be deformed significantly by the connecting crossbeam.


----------



## jis

leonb said:


> Does anyone know who owns and manages the track in this area?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Leonard


There are many tracks in the area. The North East Corridor on which the train was running is owned and managed by Amtrak. The yard where the locomotive is sitting is owned and managed by Conrail Shared Asset as is the Delair Bridge Line which passes over the yard after branching off from the NEC at Shore interlocking.


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> Do not discount the effect of the stout crossbeams that connect the left and right posts in each pair. If the right post gets knocked out the left post will be deformed significantly by the connecting crossbeam.


Good point.

Here's a zoomed in view - it looks to me like the left (inside the curve) post is significantly further from vertical than the right (outside the curve) post.




I should really just take my own advice and shut up until there's more info though.


----------



## cpamtfan

claire said:


> Is there anyone who's questioning the safety of the train with no seatbelts? Six have died so far today in a derailment in Philadelphia. Many traumatic injuries. How are trains exempt from seatbelt requirement?


Not at all, because once that can of worms is open it can't be turned back.


----------



## Bierboy

ALC Rail Writer said:


> Comparing past accidents that have been investigated by officials and ongoing accident scenes is like comparing apples to apple seeds. You can't draw any meaningful conclusions that way...
> 
> I will say that bad as this looks (and no doubt will get as the night winds on) it could have been much worse. Amtrak's worst accident in at least 15 years and over 90% survived, less than half seriously injured. Oftentimes transportation accidents result with 100% casualties.
> 
> edit for clarity, jis.


Please check the definition of the word "casualty"....it is NOT limited to deaths only...it also means injuries. It has been misused all night and all morning long by the news media and other.


----------



## dlagrua

After reading through this long thread, I would like to offer my prayers for those injured and my sincerest condolences to the families that lost loved ones. IMO, much of the news coverage can be described as a largely inaccurate media circus that offers little.

No one so far knows what caused this accident. My _guess _is that the derailment was caused by excessive speed running on older tracks. We should have an official statement by the NTSB later today.

While this is a terrible tragic event; it should be noted that accidents of this type on Amtrak are extremely rare. If anything good is to come of this; it may serve to send a message to those in Washington that Amtrak cannot be ignored or treated like a necessary evil or afterthought. It appears that the Washington-New York service will be down for a while and perhaps this will open the eyes of skeptics as to the importance of passenger rail to the American people.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Just came through TRE on my morning commute, and the NJT cross-honoring of Amtrak tickets seemed to be working well for anyone who was able to find another way as far as Trenton. There were customer assistance people (not usual at TRE), and, except for one NJT train cancelled because of equipment failure, the regular NJT commuter trains between Trenton and New York were running on time. (I was there between 7:30 and 8:00.)

The southbound side was completely empty, except for a SEPTA train that was not going to go anywhere. It was a stark reminder (as in dlagrua's post above) of what it would be like with no passenger rail.

Heartfelt and healing thoughts to everyone affected by this.


----------



## PRR 60

Ryan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do not discount the effect of the stout crossbeams that connect the left and right posts in each pair. If the right post gets knocked out the left post will be deformed significantly by the connecting crossbeam.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point.
> 
> Here's a zoomed in view - it looks to me like the left (inside the curve) post is significantly further from vertical than the right (outside the curve) post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2015-05-13 at 8.39.02 AM.png
> 
> I should really just take my own advice and shut up until there's more info though.
Click to expand...


The near side (south) catenary support was sheared off at the base by the impact. It was displaced east multiple feet. Although it is closer to vertical, it is simply sitting on the ground, not its foundation. The north support was pulled over by the force coming through the frame from the south-side impact. It is still attached to the foundation although the pole, and likely the foundation as well, are badly rotated and deflected. Although the aerial makes it look like the north pole is more severely damaged, the south pole actually took the worst of it and brought the north pole along for the ride.

Were I still working, I likely would have been out there on the scene, probably all night. We have a 230kV line through the accident location, including overbuilt on the damaged catenary structure. This is one of those instances where we used to say the wires are holding the pole up.


----------



## kdeschner

The Brand New ACS-64 Looks Damaged


----------



## Ryan

Thanks, Bill. That makes perfect sense. I considered that as well, but rejected it because I thought I could see the concrete footing at the bottom of the pole. Makes sense that it would have sheared off at ground level and was taken along for the ride.


----------



## kdeschner

Is That Worth Repairing?


----------



## Ryan

Local news just reported that one of the 6 killed is a USNA Midshipman.


----------



## Ryan

kdeschner said:


> Is That Worth Repairing?


There's no way we have enough information to answer that.

Edit: It's also not "brand new", it's been in service for over a year.


----------



## Guest

claire said:


> Is there anyone who's questioning the safety of the train with no seatbelts? Six have died so far today in a derailment in Philadelphia. Many traumatic injuries. How are trains exempt from seatbelt requirement?


How are busses exempt too?

Regardless, from the briefing by Crush, many of the injuries were from flying objects like large, heavy, pieces of luggage. IMHO, if you're destined to be wacked in the head by flying luggage, briefcase, or laptop, a seatbelt isn't going to protect you much.


----------



## Ryan

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_SEPTA_train_hit_by_projectile_before_Amtrak_crash.html

Interesting report. Obviously nothing at this point to show that they're related.



> Just before Tuesday's deadly Amtrak derailment, a SEPTA commuter train in the same corridor was crippled by a projectile sent through the engineer's window.
> 
> SEPTA officials said their investigation was continuing, but that there was no immediate indication the two incidents were related.
> 
> At about 9:25 p.m. Tuesday, SEPTA's northbound Train 769, en route to Trenton on tracks on the Northeast Corridor beside the Amtrak rails, was struck by "an unknown projectile" that broke the engineer's window, SEPTA spokeswoman Jerri Williams said.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

claire said:


> Is there anyone who's questioning the safety of the train with no seatbelts? Six have died so far today in a derailment in Philadelphia. Many traumatic injuries. How are trains exempt from seatbelt requirement?


Even if there were seat belts, pax are allowed to get up and walk the train, so it would not be inconceivable that many would be hurt or killed even if all those who were seated were buckled in.


----------



## chaos624

The news conference has been moved up to 10 am EST according to CNN.


----------



## Ryan

Surveillence video where you can barely see the train just before the crash.

http://6abc.com/news/6-dead-dozens-hospitalized-in-amtrak-train-derailment/718111/

Looks like it took 5 seconds for the train to pass.

7 amfleets @ 85' = 595'

1 ACS-64 @ 70'

Total train length ~665'

665/5=133 feet per second is 90 MPH

Conclusive? Hardly. Anyone see where I could have screwed up?


----------



## Allypet

Unfortunately it's now easy to estimate the speed of the train.


----------



## jebr

Ryan said:


> Surveillence video where you can barely see the train just before the crash.
> 
> http://6abc.com/news/6-dead-dozens-hospitalized-in-amtrak-train-derailment/718111/
> 
> Looks like it took 5 seconds for the train to pass.
> 
> 7 amfleets @ 85' = 595'
> 
> 1 ACS-64 @ 70'
> 
> Total train length ~665'
> 
> 665/5=133 feet per second is 90 MPH
> 
> Conclusive? Hardly. Anyone see where I could have screwed up?


Here's where you screwed up. h34r:



Ryan said:


> I should really just take my own advice and shut up until there's more info though.


----------



## Ryan

There was more info, the video!


----------



## Dutch

Ryan said:


> Surveillence video where you can barely see the train just before the crash.
> 
> http://6abc.com/news/6-dead-dozens-hospitalized-in-amtrak-train-derailment/718111/
> 
> Looks like it took 5 seconds for the train to pass.
> 
> 7 amfleets @ 85' = 595'
> 
> 1 ACS-64 @ 70'
> 
> Total train length ~665'
> 
> 665/5=133 feet per second is 90 MPH
> 
> Conclusive? Hardly. Anyone see where I could have screwed up?


Exactly my calculation.


----------



## WinNix

Bierboy said:


> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing past accidents that have been investigated by officials and ongoing accident scenes is like comparing apples to apple seeds. You can't draw any meaningful conclusions that way...
> 
> I will say that bad as this looks (and no doubt will get as the night winds on) it could have been much worse. Amtrak's worst accident in at least 15 years and over 90% survived, less than half seriously injured. Oftentimes transportation accidents result with 100% casualties.
> 
> edit for clarity, jis.
> 
> 
> 
> Please check the definition of the word "casualty"....it is NOT limited to deaths only...it also means injuries. It has been misused all night and all morning long by the news media and other.
Click to expand...

Often, we* are told to not even speak to the media, and let the chief handle all media communication. Some of their required training/classroom work is specifically how to interact with the media. I don't think I've ever heard our chief staff use "casualty" - they clearly use death/injury verbiage.

*we - I am a firefighter with derailment & mass casualty training and experience.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Excellent post re media relations! Almost every company and organization has spokespersons whose sole job is to interact with media!

When I was a Firefighter/ EMT ( back in Ancient times) the ranking person ( usually a Captain or Chief) on the scene was the only person allowed to speak with the media and any follow up was handled by the Department Chiefs Office or Fire Marshall!

The biggest criticism of Amtrak I heard last night was that they were doing a Slow and poor job of communicating with the media!


----------



## Guest

Ryan said:


> Surveillence video where you can barely see the train just before the crash.
> 
> http://6abc.com/news/6-dead-dozens-hospitalized-in-amtrak-train-derailment/718111/
> 
> Looks like it took 5 seconds for the train to pass.
> 
> 7 amfleets @ 85' = 595'
> 
> 1 ACS-64 @ 70'
> 
> Total train length ~665'
> 
> 665/5=133 feet per second is 90 MPH
> 
> Conclusive? Hardly. Anyone see where I could have screwed up?


Did I miss it, but is there any way to tell where that video was taken? It says "seconds before the crash", but if it was 300 seconds, then there was plenty of time for the train to get down to 50 MPH... Are the flashes of light late in the video indicative of the crash occurring, or from some other source entirely?

Also, is there any reason to believe the on-screen clock showed the correct absolute time? Finally, has the exact time of the crash been publicized?

Not saying you are wrong in any way, just brainstorming possible answers to your last question...

Guest


----------



## WinNix

jimhudson said:


> Excellent post re media relations! Almost every company and organization has spokespersons whose sole job is to interact with media!
> 
> When I was a Firefighter/ EMT ( back in Ancient times) the ranking person ( usually a Captain or Chief) on the scene was the only person allowed to speak with the media and any follow up was handled by the Department Chiefs Office or Fire Marshall!
> 
> The biggest criticism of Amtrak I heard last night was that they were doing a Slow and poor job of communicating with the media!


Currently, and for the past (several) years, speaking to the media interview-style without clearance from a chief or the captain is almost an automatic suspension. The only exception is if they catch you offguard and are in your face.


----------



## Ryan

I greatly appreciate the brainstorming.

The flashes you see in the video come from the energized catenary being destroyed, so the time period between the train passing (39-44 seconds) and the first last (46 seconds) indicates it's right there.

Good thought that I hadn't considered, though.


----------



## WinNix

To those advocating seatbelts - I do not disagree but I don't think that will be a reality any time soon. You will see mandatory seatbelts on buses and planes first (full ride/flight, not turbulence only). There are a lot of other factors that come into play as well.


----------



## Bob Dylan

We still don't have seatbelts on our yellow school buses here in the peoples Republic of Texas!

I for one am not opposed to having them available in trains but the cost is prohibitive and wouldn't want to see them made mandatory on Amtrak Trains!

( can you imagine commuter rail and subways where they pack 'em in like sardines having seat belts??!!)


----------



## NE933

TV footage appears to be showing that they are moving a severed portion of one of the smashed Amfleet cars with a lifting machine of some kind.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Bierboy said:


> Please check the definition of the word "casualty"....it is NOT limited to deaths only...it also means injuries. It has been misused all night and all morning long by the news media and other.


Yes, and if you re-read my post you will find I used it correctly. I said 100% causality not 100% fatality.


----------



## WinNix

jimhudson said:


> We still don't have seatbelts on our yellow school buses here in the peoples Republic of Texas!
> 
> I for one am not opposed to having them available in trains but the cost is prohibitive and wouldn't want to see them made mandatory on Amtrak Trains!
> 
> ( can you imagine commuter rail and subways where they pack 'em in like sardines having seat belts??!!)


I agree that seatbelt rules on commuter trains would be impossible to enforce. MNRR cars that have 103 seats have standing room for at least another 20 people - not even counting aisle space that people use during rush hour. I really don't see how or why they would be installed on LD trains or even enforced. I think it would be a waste of money, frankly. I think they would be put to better use on buses and planes (full flight except bathroom runs). EDIT: Apologies for going on a tangent, I will try to refrain from posting anything not incident related.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Seatbelts on trains would be impossible to enforce unless there is one employee of the nanny state in almost every car on every train, since you can't expect a Conductor and AC to be responsible for 5-10 coach cars. You have multiple flight attendants for just one fuselage. It'd be a heck of jobs program.


----------



## chrsjrcj

But based off the theory that one of the Amfleets struck the catenary pole, I fail to see how seatbelts would've saved lives in that case.


----------



## tracy

the theory of this train flying through there at 106 mph is absurd.

amtrak does NOT go fast through this area, at all.

nooooo, im not a train "expert" or employee, just a passenger.

recently took long distance trip and at 80 mph It Was Noticable! we couldnt help but remark "wow!!! we are flyyyying!" and asked our attendant to confirm our speed,

so, i mean, seriously.... people who take this train everyday would Certainly notice if they were rocketing through there at 106.

logic people. logic


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

tracy said:


> amtrak does NOT go fast through this area, at all.


Amtrak does not go that fast through that area _normally_. Clearly last night something was abnormal. Logically, it could have been the speed.


----------



## BmoreFlyer

Sorry but I take that route weekly and have done so for over 10 years. I have not memorized how fast each train goes in each stretch of track.


----------



## Ryan

I posted the video and the math that support my 90 MPH estimate on the last page, you're welcome to poke holes in it.


----------



## rrdude

tracy said:


> the theory of this train flying through there at 106 mph is absurd.
> 
> amtrak does NOT go fast through this area, at all.
> 
> nooooo, im not a train "expert" or employee, just a passenger.
> 
> recently took long distance trip and at 80 mph It Was Noticable! we couldnt help but remark "wow!!! we are flyyyying!" and asked our attendant to confirm our speed,
> 
> so, i mean, seriously.... people who take this train everyday would Certainly notice if they were rocketing through there at 106.
> 
> logic people. logic


Well Mr./Mrs. "Guest_Tracy", _very few _LD trains hit 106mph, and that's pretty much restricted to the NEC, that* is a* fact.

Track speed on the North East Corridor (NEC) however, between DC and Boston (sorry Richmond!) has certain sections (very few, and very short) that I believe is rated at 150mph (Acela only, *not* the Regionals, like # 188)

It is *not uncommon however*, for Amtrak's Regionals to reach a top speed of 125mph. I have traveled between Baltimore and NY Penn dozens of times, and 106mph, while "fast" seems slow when you decelerate from 125mph.

Let's also be clear that the "106mph speed" is pure conjecture at this point. (tho my bets on the reason are *1.* Excessive Speed *2.* Wheel Issue. or *3. *Rail Issue. Pretty much covered it all, didn't I?)

Now, I have ZERO knowledge of the track speed for a Regional at the point of the crash, (others will no doubt chime in, please)


----------



## PerRock

tracy said:


> the theory of this train flying through there at 106 mph is absurd.
> 
> amtrak does NOT go fast through this area, at all.
> 
> nooooo, im not a train "expert" or employee, just a passenger.
> 
> recently took long distance trip and at 80 mph It Was Noticable! we couldnt help but remark "wow!!! we are flyyyying!" and asked our attendant to confirm our speed,
> 
> so, i mean, seriously.... people who take this train everyday would Certainly notice if they were rocketing through there at 106.
> 
> logic people. logic


Just because the posted speed is lower & most trains go that speed, doesn't mean the train can't go faster. Your car has the capacity to go well above the speed limit on the road it's traveling.

There are now a couple different sources quoting a high speed of around 100mph. The corner's speed limit is only 50-60mph (I've seen conflicting reports).

As for people noticing, it's late at night, people are tired. the NEC trains do travel well in excess of 100mph in certain areas. And really most people don't really care enough to notice if the train seems a little faster out of the window. Oh and there are other distractions on board. Case in point. One of the Associate Press's managers was on board the train at the time of the crash; he didn't notice anything out of the ordinary, because he was watching Netflix at the time.

peter


----------



## PerRock

rrdude said:


> Let's also be clear that the "106mph speed" is pure conjecture at this point. (tho my bets on the reason are *1.* Excessive Speed *2.* Wheel Issue. or *3. *Rail Issue. Pretty much covered it all, didn't I?)


*4.* Terrorism/Sabotage hasn't been fully ruled out. It's just pretty unlikely according to the FBI.

peter


----------



## FormerOBS

Earlier post (now removed) is EXACTLY the kind of mindless, uninformed speculation I was talking about.

The truth hurts, don't it?

Tom


----------



## tracy

dlagrua said:


> If anything good is to come of this; it may serve to send a message to those in Washington that Amtrak cannot be ignored or treated like a necessary evil or afterthought. It appears that the Washington-New York service will be down for a while and perhaps this will open the eyes of skeptics as to the importance of passenger rail to the American people.


AMEN to that. i dont think anyone can argue with this. its a disgrace, the state of our passenger train service in this country. personally, makes me sad. i mean, who doesnt love trains? its just such a shame how we have neglected our national rail service. how do we remedy this?
i love amtrak & i have to say, i noticed what appeared to be a lack of morale among the attendants & some ticket counter, baggage folks. they looked over-worked & tired. our room attendant told many passengers of the budget funding issues and predicted the days if the midwest long distance train are numbered.

THAT is SHOCKING and heartbreaking.


----------



## Guest

Conductor was a terrorist? Or software speed controls were manipulated?

I never handled a Sprinter before and am not familiar with the controls and safety features. Guess Amtrak has to rebuild the damaged track area and rebuild or even place new car orders. Considering it was a North east regional, perhaps they could swap an acela train set when new ones come in and run additional acela service. Not sure if the sprinter can be repaired.


----------



## chrsjrcj

I read on TrainOrders that speed control was only for westbound trains not eastbound trains on that curve. The cost to add speed control for eastbound trains would've been minimal to none. I'm assuming this is coming from someone who works on the line.

I did read an article that said the NTSB confirmed not PTC for that curve.


----------



## Jon Parker

FormerOBS said:


> Post no. 205 is EXACTLY the kind of mindless, uninformed speculation I was talking about.
> 
> The truth hurts, don't it?
> 
> Tom


This guest has been making outrageous assumptions from the get go. Just 10 hours ago he/she KNEW that it was sabotage based on the pictures. Now they KNOW that the engineer was incompetent and distracted in the cab. Its better to just ignore. This person knows nothing more than any other layperson at this point.


----------



## PRR 60

FormerOBS said:


> Post no. 205 is EXACTLY the kind of mindless, uninformed speculation I was talking about.
> 
> The truth hurts, don't it?
> 
> Tom


Note that since some guest posts have been removed, current Post 205 is not the post Tom saw as "Post 205."


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

Guest said:


> Conductor was a terrorist? Or software speed controls were manipulated?
> 
> I never handled a Sprinter before and am not familiar with the controls and safety features. Guess Amtrak has to rebuild the damaged track area and rebuild or even place new car orders. Considering it was a North east regional, perhaps they could swap an acela train set when new ones come in and run additional acela service. Not sure if the sprinter can be repaired.


The conductor would be nowhere near the controls of the locomotive. The job title of the person sitting at the controls in Engineer. Please stick around and read some of our other threads here you can learn quite a bit.


----------



## Ryan

PRR 60 said:


> FormerOBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post no. 205 is EXACTLY the kind of mindless, uninformed speculation I was talking about.
> 
> The truth hurts, don't it?
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> Note that since some guest posts have been removed, current Post 205 is not the post Tom saw as "Post 205."
Click to expand...

Your dedication to keeping that kind of crap out of this discussion is commendable.


----------



## I_can_name_names

I was just watching a news report, that was interviewing a spokes woman from Amtrak.

She was pointing out that they have no way to know who was on the train. That Amtrak simply sells tickets, and doesn't know who actually uses them or not.

That doesn't seem quite correct to me. I would think that even on the Regionals, the conductor scans or collects tickets. From those, Amtrak should be able to get a good idea of who was on this train. True, there might be a couple of passengers who just boarded the train, and the conductor didn't get to them yet, but ticket sales should be even able to isolate it down to those who purchased tickets to board from that very last station. I guess I am saying that while such a manifest might not be 100%, Amtrak should be able to name the passengers to within 95% accuracy or better, with the remaining 5% being a list of possible passengers.


----------



## StriderGDM

I_can_name_names said:


> I was just watching a news report, that was interviewing a spokes woman from Amtrak.
> 
> She was pointing out that they have no way to know who was on the train. That Amtrak simply sells tickets, and doesn't know who actually uses them or not.
> 
> That doesn't seem quite correct to me. I would think that even on the Regionals, the conductor scans or collects tickets. From those, Amtrak should be able to get a good idea of who was on this train. True, there might be a couple of passengers who just boarded the train, and the conductor didn't get to them yet, but ticket sales should be even able to isolate it down to those who purchased tickets to board from that very last station. I guess I am saying that while such a manifest might not be 100%, Amtrak should be able to name the passengers to within 95% accuracy or better, with the remaining 5% being a list of possible passengers.


People can also get off early.

Amtrak and the authorities are probably going through the passenger manifest, checking with hospital lists and calling any names that aren't matching up.

One thing that they'll do as part of the procedure is make attempts to contact any families/missing passengers before releasing such names to the media.


----------



## jis

rrdude said:


> Well Mr./Mrs. "Guest_Tracy", not a single LD train currently approaches 106mph, that* is a* fact.


Actually all LD trains (Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Cardinal, Crescent, Palmetto) that run on the NEC get upto 110mph. In addition to that the Lake Shore Limited hits upto 110mph between Stuyvesant and Albany-Rensselaer.


----------



## Bierboy

WinNix said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing past accidents that have been investigated by officials and ongoing accident scenes is like comparing apples to apple seeds. You can't draw any meaningful conclusions that way...
> 
> I will say that bad as this looks (and no doubt will get as the night winds on) it could have been much worse. Amtrak's worst accident in at least 15 years and over 90% survived, less than half seriously injured. Oftentimes transportation accidents result with 100% casualties.
> 
> edit for clarity, jis.
> 
> 
> 
> Please check the definition of the word "casualty"....it is NOT limited to deaths only...it also means injuries. It has been misused all night and all morning long by the news media and other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Often, we* are told to not even speak to the media, and let the chief handle all media communication. Some of their required training/classroom work is specifically how to interact with the media. I don't think I've ever heard our chief staff use "casualty" - they clearly use death/injury verbiage.
> 
> *we - I am a firefighter with derailment & mass casualty training and experience.
Click to expand...

Excellent information...thank you. I'm a former reporter, so I get hung up on correct terminology. Unfortunately, the word "casualty" has been used fast and loose in this tragedy.


----------



## rrdude

jis said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Mr./Mrs. "Guest_Tracy", not a single LD train currently approaches 106mph, that* is a* fact.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually all LD trains (Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Cardinal, Crescent, Palmetto) that run on the NEC get upto 110mph. In addition to that the Lake Shore Limited hits upto 110mph between Stuyvesant and Albany-Rensselaer.
Click to expand...

I am corrected! When I think "LD Train" I only think of those out west, my bad, thanks JIS.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Awaiting a NTSB presser, the talking heads on the 24/7 "News" outlets are interviewing each other, showing old clips, asking the usual inane questions of various hired "experts" etc.

Thankfully the confirmed dead seem to be holding @ 6 and the engineer and crew are all alive and being interviewed!

Speculation on the cause seems to be centered on Signal problems, bad rails and the old " human error"!

According to Amtrak and Philly Mayor Nutter ( he seems well informed and is a very impressive leader)the "Black Box" is already @ Wilmington for analysis and the NTSB and Amtrak have heavy presence working the scene!

This will be an important and closely watched investigaton, we can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear as the old saying goes if it's handled right!

Prayers and condolences to those involved and kuddos to Phillys Finest, they seem to have it together!


----------



## George K

Ryan said:


> Surveillence video where you can barely see the train just before the crash.
> 
> http://6abc.com/news/6-dead-dozens-hospitalized-in-amtrak-train-derailment/718111/
> 
> Looks like it took 5 seconds for the train to pass.
> 
> 7 amfleets @ 85' = 595'
> 
> 1 ACS-64 @ 70'
> 
> Total train length ~665'
> 
> 665/5=133 feet per second is 90 MPH
> 
> Conclusive? Hardly. Anyone see where I could have screwed up?


The Wall Street Journal joins the the speed speculation:



> An Amtrak train involved in a fatal crash here appears to have been traveling at more than 100 miles an hour as it entered a sharp curve where it derailed Tuesday night, killing at least six people, according to two people with knowledge of the investigation.
> 
> The speed limit in that section of track drops to 50 miles per hour, according to the Federal Railroad Administration.
> 
> Investigators are focusing on the possibility that excessive speed was a factor in the derailment, one of these people said. The locomotive and all seven passenger cars of the train went off the tracks at a tight curve at Frankford Junction, north of Philadelphia city center. Multiple cars overturned, severely injuring some passengers and pinning others. Six people were killed and more than 200 were injured, including eight who were in critical condition.
> 
> Amtrak officials notified some employees on a Wednesday conference call that excessive speed was believed to have contributed to the crash, said one of these people, who was briefed on the contents of the call.


----------



## printman2000

Just heard (CBS News) another victim was found so now 7 dead.

Has anyone heard the condition of the engineer? If this was a speed issue, I would assume Amtrak already knows it.


----------



## Bierboy

ALC Rail Writer said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please check the definition of the word "casualty"....it is NOT limited to deaths only...it also means injuries. It has been misused all night and all morning long by the news media and other.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and if you re-read my post you will find I used it correctly. I said 100% causality not 100% fatality.
Click to expand...

This was not directed specifically to you; I was merely pointing out that the term is widely misdefined....


----------



## rtabern

I am good friends with the engineer who appear to be doing okay... please keep him in your prayers. I just sent a text to him wishing our best... he used to be from the Midwest and I have known him for 10 years now since he worked on the Lincoln Service.


----------



## PRR 60

printman2000 said:


> Just heard (CBS News) another victim was found so now 7 dead.
> 
> Has anyone heard the condition of the engineer? If this was a speed issue, I would assume Amtrak already knows it.


Reports are that the NTSB interviewed both the engineer and conductor today (5/13). I suspect Amtrak already knows the speed of the train approaching and entering the curve.


----------



## rtabern

printman2000 said:


> Just heard (CBS News) another victim was found so now 7 dead.
> 
> Has anyone heard the condition of the engineer? If this was a speed issue, I would assume Amtrak already knows it.


It turns out I am very good friends with the engineer involved. I am not putting his name out there right now, but he used to work in the Midwest and on the Lincoln Service. He is doing ok... was taken to the hospital but has since been released. Keep praying for him though... a good guy... I have hung out with him many times.


----------



## printman2000

rtabern said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just heard (CBS News) another victim was found so now 7 dead.
> 
> Has anyone heard the condition of the engineer? If this was a speed issue, I would assume Amtrak already knows it.
> 
> 
> 
> It turns out I am very good friends with the engineer involved. I am not putting his name out there right now, but he used to work in the Midwest and on the Lincoln Service. He is doing ok... was taken to the hospital but has since been released. Keep praying for him though... a good guy... I have hung out with him many times.
Click to expand...

I was curious, How did you find out it was your friend on this train? I assume that info has not been released.


----------



## Bierboy

Bieng a former reporter, I am LIVID at the reporting going on right now on the Fox News web site. Here's a sample of the headlines...


"Is America's national railroad a disaster waiting to happen?"
"Amtrak's history checkered by crashes, warnings"
"questions mount over concerns that have dogged the service for years -- from its contentious relationship with the federal government and its annual plea for funding to its history of deadly accidents."
What a load of steaming BS....


----------



## Ryan

rtabern said:


> I am good friends with the engineer who appear to be doing okay... please keep him in your prayers. I just sent a text to him wishing our best... he used to be from the Midwest and I have known him for 10 years now since he worked on the Lincoln Service.


Good news that he's OK. Prayers extended.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

They have the crew debriefed, they have the on board data, they have the wreck site, and they have whatever live data Amtrak had at the time of the incident.

We should have an answer relatively soon, as in relative to drawn-out plane mysteries.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Bierboy said:


> Bieng a former reporter, I am LIVID at the reporting going on right now on the Fox News web site. Here's a sample of the headlines...
> 
> 
> "Is America's national railroad a disaster waiting to happen?"
> "Amtrak's history checkered by crashes, warnings"
> "questions mount over concerns that have dogged the service for years -- from its contentious relationship with the federal government and its annual plea for funding to its history of deadly accidents."
> What a load of steaming BS....


I totally agree but why limit your criticism to Amtrak reporting, Fox is infamous for its bias and airhead talent, they usually get it wrong!
This is not to say that CNN and MSNBC are not just as guilty, they often are!

Even the Gray Lady, the NY Times, had some bad reporting on this!

Hard to say if its because of ownership, poor producers and editors or just incompetent "reporters" and anchors!

This seems to be one time when the locals did the best, kuddos to Philly!


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Bierboy said:


> What a load of steaming BS....


Very true, but I wonder if (as others have alluded) there is good to come out of this media blitz...Look at this thread and others like it; whenever an establishment political force mobilizes itself against something with grassroots support, the grassroots instinctively mobilize. At the end of the day headlines with death tolls less than/around ten people don't deliver the message that Amtrak is unsafe. More people will be directly impacted by the service interruption this accident has caused and, hopefully, demand improvements.


----------



## RPC

First off, my prayers and condolences for all those involved in this crash - I travel those tracks several times a year - "there but for the grace of God go I."

But from a practical point of view, for those who need to get between 30th St. and Trenton, here's how to do it via mass transit.

From 30th St Station, you have two choices. The first is to walk to the PATCO station at 16th and Locust. This is a pretty long way, I'd guess a mile. Alternatively, walk out the SW corner of the station across 30th St. to the Market-Frankford subway station. Take the Market-Frankford line east to the 8th & Market station. Transfer there to PATCO.

Either way, take PATCO across the Ben Franklin Bridge to the Broadway/Walter Rand Transportation Center stop. Transfer there to the RiverLINE heading north. That ends right across the street from the Trenton Transportation Center.

I wonder if Amtrak will set up alternate transportation if the Corridor is out for more than a day or two. It would theoretically be possible for diesels to haul trains from Trenton to Woodbourne via the Trenton Cutoff, whence they could proceed under their own power over SEPTA. (I don't know if the Acelas could get through the curves at either end of downtown, though.)


----------



## Guest

printman2000 said:


> Just heard (CBS News) another victim was found so now 7 dead.


Is this the female CEO from a tech company? The news said she left a meeting to grab this train, and hasn't been heard from since the accident.


----------



## printman2000

Guest said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just heard (CBS News) another victim was found so now 7 dead.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the female CEO from a tech company? The news said she left a meeting to grab this train, and hasn't been heard from since the accident.
Click to expand...

I believe so.


----------



## PRR 60

The NTSB will hold a media briefing at 5pm today. These are usually streamed by NTSB, and they should also be covered live and streamed by the Philadelphia TV stations - CBS3, 6ABC, NBC10 and FOX29.


----------



## printman2000

PRR 60 said:


> The NTSB will hold a media briefing at 5pm today. These are usually streamed by NTSB, and they should also be covered live and streamed by the Philadelphia TV stations - CBS3, 6ABC, NBC10 and FOX29.


CNN reported there will be another press conference around 2:15 eastern. Not sure who it it by, though.


----------



## Ocala Mike

Bierboy said:


> Bieng a former reporter, I am LIVID at the reporting going on right now on the Fox News web site. Here's a sample of the headlines...
> 
> 
> "Is America's national railroad a disaster waiting to happen?"
> "Amtrak's history checkered by crashes, warnings"
> "questions mount over concerns that have dogged the service for years -- from its contentious relationship with the federal government and its annual plea for funding to its history of deadly accidents."
> What a load of steaming BS....


It is part of the conservative playbook to demonize any and all government or quasi-government agencies that operate against the laissez-faire capitalism model (Amtrak, Obamacare, USPS, etc.). Not surprising that you won't hear much from them about insufficient spending on infrastructure to keep up with the rest of the civilized world.


----------



## PerRock

Bierboy said:


> Bieng a former reporter, I am LIVID at the reporting going on right now on the Fox News web site. Here's a sample of the headlines...
> 
> 
> "Is America's national railroad a disaster waiting to happen?"
> "Amtrak's history checkered by crashes, warnings"
> "questions mount over concerns that have dogged the service for years -- from its contentious relationship with the federal government and its annual plea for funding to its history of deadly accidents."
> What a load of steaming BS....


As someone who works in the news business (designer for a newspaper) I've come to consider FOX news as more of propaganda machine then an news source. I akin it to various state-run news agencies under dictatorships.

----------

Checkin the wire now;

AP confirms 7 dead (as of 1:35pm) body was found at scene (not at hospital). The dead include an AP Video Software Architect , and a USN Academy midshipman. AP staffer's name released, USN not released.

The track was inspected by Amtrak on Tuesday, May 12, 2015 hours before incident. No defects identified.

An AP manager (I'm with holding names) was watching Netflix on his laptop at the time, presumably using up the precious wifi on board. *shakes fist*

The first car is described as being "a pile of metal." By AP manager

Livingston, NJ resident was sleeping at the time. (I'm including these to point out that not every passenger pays attention to train speed)

Photos from AP:



 



AP has many more, but those were the most illustrative in my opinion.

peter


----------



## CHamilton

Latest Updates on Train #188 - National Association of Railroad Passengers http://ow.ly/MUyXR


----------



## Ryan

PerRock said:


> An AP manager (I'm with holding names) was watching Netflix on his laptop at the time, presumably using up the precious wifi on board. *shakes fist*


Minor detail, but video is blocked on the wifi, he was probably using his own bandwidth.


----------



## PerRock

Ryan said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> An AP manager (I'm with holding names) was watching Netflix on his laptop at the time, presumably using up the precious wifi on board. *shakes fist*
> 
> 
> 
> Minor detail, but video is blocked on the wifi, he was probably using his own bandwidth.
Click to expand...

It may not have actually been Netflix as well, initial reports said Netflix, but they've been updated to just say that he was watching a video.

peter


----------



## pennyk

printman2000 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The NTSB will hold a media briefing at 5pm today. These are usually streamed by NTSB, and they should also be covered live and streamed by the Philadelphia TV stations - CBS3, 6ABC, NBC10 and FOX29.
> 
> 
> 
> CNN reported there will be another press conference around 2:15 eastern. Not sure who it it by, though.
Click to expand...

According to MSNBC, the press conference will be Philadelphia Mayor Nutter at 2:15.


----------



## Guest

Train accidents happen around the world but it is a small percentage and still very safe. Amtrak will learn from this, fix the broken infrastructure and add positive speed control on this curve or a buddy system would work as well.


----------



## Bob Dylan

This tragedy is a reminder that our Birthday Girl's AU nom de computer, "Everyday Matters", is so very true!


----------



## Bierboy

Not looking good for Amtrak or the engineer; he's refusing to speak with authorities -- http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ebc621a9cd1b4abd9f2bf2b50fa12d05/latest-amtrak-crash-ntsb-crew-heads-derailment

Certainly not an admission of guilt, but, on the surface, it looks bad.


----------



## Big Iron

Bierboy said:


> Bieng a former reporter, I am LIVID at the reporting going on right now on the Fox News web site. Here's a sample of the headlines...
> 
> 
> "Is America's national railroad a disaster waiting to happen?"
> "Amtrak's history checkered by crashes, warnings"
> "questions mount over concerns that have dogged the service for years -- from its contentious relationship with the federal government and its annual plea for funding to its history of deadly accidents."
> What a load of steaming BS....


My sentiments exactly. Maybe it has been fixed but the article also said that 2 people on board the CONO that hit the flatbed pickup truck were killed. To use this tragedy to flog Amtrak is pitiful.


----------



## desertflyer

Bierboy said:


> Not looking good for Amtrak or the engineer; he's refusing to speak with authorities -- http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ebc621a9cd1b4abd9f2bf2b50fa12d05/latest-amtrak-crash-ntsb-crew-heads-derailment
> 
> Certainly not an admission of guilt, but, on the surface, it looks bad.


I'm a pilot and I have always been told NEVER talk without representation after an accident, even if you are 100% not at fault. It's to protect yourself and your career. It's not about obstructing investigators.


----------



## Ryan

Bierboy said:


> Certainly not an admission of guilt, but, on the surface, it looks bad.


It doesn't look bad, it looks like the responsible thing to do.


----------



## andersone

My thoughts and prayers to all,,,

If I were the engineer I wouldn't leave the building without a lawyer and a clothes pin.

As long as we learn from these tragedies we can prevail,,,

ignore the root cause and we are melba (toast)


----------



## B757Guy

+1 on what Desert Flyer said. My union and chief pilot always tell us no comments to anyone without representation of god-forbid there is an incident.


----------



## PRR 60

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that two sources "with knowledge of the investigation" have confirmed that the train entered the curve at over 100mph -twice the permissible speed. It was also reported that a morning Amtrak management conference call stated that excessive speed was a factor in the crash. If that is true, the next question is why.


----------



## CHamilton

http://www.wsj.com/articles/deadly-train-wreck-in-philadelphia-leaves-disastrous-mess-1431499608


----------



## Bierboy

Ryan said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly not an admission of guilt, but, on the surface, it looks bad.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't look bad, it looks like the responsible thing to do.
Click to expand...

I disagree...it LOOKS bad. Yes, it's the responsible thing to do, but the general uninformed public will make assumptions.


----------



## SarahZ

Bierboy said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly not an admission of guilt, but, on the surface, it looks bad.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't look bad, it looks like the responsible thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree...it LOOKS bad. Yes, it's the responsible thing to do, but the general uninformed public will make assumptions.
Click to expand...

Too bad. Let the idiots assume things. It's still never, ever, ever a good idea to talk without representation, and in some professions, you aren't even allowed to until you have representation.


----------



## ne52

If anyone's looking for interesting spotting, a US DOT FRA car just passed on its way south. It passed South Norwalk CT around 2:20 pm, coming from the Danbury spur. It looks like one of the Amtrak Metroliner cab cars.

It had a New Haven loco on the front and MTA one in the back, nothing else in the consist. Not sure if it's going to link up with anything else heading to PA or continue on by itself.


----------



## Ryan

SarahZ said:


> Too bad. Let the idiots assume things. It's still never, ever, ever a good idea to talk without representation, and in some professions, you aren't even allowed to until you have representation.


Amen, sister.


----------



## spacecadet

Most NTSB interviews are done without lawyers present.

Just throwing that out there.


----------



## Bierboy

SarahZ said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly not an admission of guilt, but, on the surface, it looks bad.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't look bad, it looks like the responsible thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree...it LOOKS bad. Yes, it's the responsible thing to do, but the general uninformed public will make assumptions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Too bad. Let the idiots assume things. It's still never, ever, ever a good idea to talk without representation, and in some professions, you aren't even allowed to until you have representation.
Click to expand...

Yes, indeed, it's too bad. But it's the truth. People will assume guilt when this is what happens....


----------



## capltd29

This CNN article states that this was Amtrak's 9th derailment this year? Did I miss some of them? A quick wikipedia search reveals only the Halifax, NC derailment where an idiot truck driver got in the way. Amtrak would be running out of equipment if there were that many wrecks.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html


----------



## neroden

chrsjrcj said:


> I read on TrainOrders that speed control was only for westbound trains not eastbound trains on that curve. The cost to add speed control for eastbound trains would've been minimal to none. I'm assuming this is coming from someone who works on the line.
> 
> I did read an article that said the NTSB confirmed not PTC for that curve.


If this is confirmed, it adds to the evidence that PTC (ACSES) should have been mandated long ago. I don't think the Class Is are going to get their desired postponement of the PTC mandate (thank goodness).


----------



## jis

Bierboy said:


> Not looking good for Amtrak or the engineer; he's refusing to speak with authorities -- http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ebc621a9cd1b4abd9f2bf2b50fa12d05/latest-amtrak-crash-ntsb-crew-heads-derailment


I thought this is exactly what they are trained to do. Even elsewhere in the industry we are always instructed not to talk to anyone in the absence of counsel. So in normal course of things I would expect them to not talk to "authorities" without having properly trained counsel present.

Incidentally there are other reports that indicate that both the Engineer and the Conductor have spoken to NTSB in the presence of counsel. Maybe it is just a case of the poor chaps at Philadelphia Police being a bit miffed that they refused to talk to their little investigation in the absence of counsel and want to get a bit of mileage out of it.


----------



## PerRock

The AP came up with 107mph using maths from the surveillance footage posted earlier. They noted that the playback in the footage is slightly slower then real-time.

peter


----------



## fillyjonk

Big Iron said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bieng a former reporter, I am LIVID at the reporting going on right now on the Fox News web site. Here's a sample of the headlines...
> 
> 
> "Is America's national railroad a disaster waiting to happen?"
> "Amtrak's history checkered by crashes, warnings"
> "questions mount over concerns that have dogged the service for years -- from its contentious relationship with the federal government and its annual plea for funding to its history of deadly accidents."
> What a load of steaming BS....
> 
> 
> 
> My sentiments exactly. Maybe it has been fixed but the article also said that 2 people on board the CONO that hit the flatbed pickup truck were killed. To use this tragedy to flog Amtrak is pitiful.
Click to expand...

Eh, if it bleeds, it leads. If you can gin up fake outrage, it gets viewers. (FOX seems especially big with the "let's try to make people outraged" stories/way of reporting them. Lately CNN seems to be Plane Crash Central. I've become very cynical about the news. I generally prefer to read it on the Internet but anymore, many of the big sites make you watch their video.

Thoughts and prayers for the families of those who lost people or who are injured. That's what's mainly important here. Blame can be figured out later on.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

SarahZ said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly not an admission of guilt, but, on the surface, it looks bad.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't look bad, it looks like the responsible thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree...it LOOKS bad. Yes, it's the responsible thing to do, but the general uninformed public will make assumptions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Too bad. Let the idiots assume things. It's still never, ever, ever a good idea to talk without representation, and in some professions, you aren't even allowed to until you have representation.
Click to expand...

Human brains are terrible at remembering objective information about a traumatic event, especially when being honest has the potential to impact them negatively, and the longer they wait to discuss the specifics the hazier and blurrier their recollection will become. As they wait to talk their memory will continue to morph and deteriorate until it bears little resemblance to what the same person would have said immediately afterward. While I can sympathize with the engineer's predicament that doesn't change my view that resolving the cause of this event in a timely and accurate fashion is more important than protecting the future employment of the operators. The longer they wait to talk the less helpful their testimony will become.


----------



## Ryan

capltd29 said:


> This CNN article states that this was Amtrak's 9th derailment this year? Did I miss some of them? A quick wikipedia search reveals only the Halifax, NC derailment where an idiot truck driver got in the way. Amtrak would be running out of equipment if there were that many wrecks.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html


There's lots of little ones that hardly anyone hears about. The Cardinal derailed on the NEC here in Odenton earlier this year when a wheel broke. All cars remained upright and nobody was injured, the track was OOS for about a week to get things cleared up.



PerRock said:


> The AP came up with 107mph using maths from the surveillance footage posted earlier. They noted that the playback in the footage is slightly slower then real-time.
> 
> peter


I think that's a little high, if I have the train length right (I think so), then it would take a time of 4 seconds. Looking at the timer in the corner (avoiding any issues with playback speed) I make out closer to 5. Maybe 4.5, which would put it around 100. Still, in the ballpark, and roughly twice as fast as it should have been going.


----------



## Guess Guest

capltd29 said:


> This CNN article states that this was Amtrak's 9th derailment this year? Did I miss some of them? A quick wikipedia search reveals only the Halifax, NC derailment where an idiot truck driver got in the way. Amtrak would be running out of equipment if there were that many wrecks.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html


But...FOX NEWS!

As far as infrastructure goes, iirc, there was a trillion dollars of shovel-ready projects spent about 6 years ago.

How'd that work out?


----------



## Ryan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Human brains are terrible at remembering objective information about a traumatic event


This is why the statement isn't really all that important to me. Let the documentary evidence speak for itself, we'll have plenty of it in this case.


----------



## Ryan

Guess Guest said:


> How'd that work out?


Pretty well, but discussion of that's probably outside the scope of this thread.


----------



## neroden

Guess Guest said:


> As far as infrastructure goes, iirc, there was a trillion dollars of shovel-ready projects spent about 6 years ago.
> 
> How'd that work out?


Most of them are under construction as we speak. (There were some paperwork delays, so they weren't all quite shovel-ready.) Some are already done and giving benefits (Englewood Flyover.)


----------



## PerRock

Ryan said:


> capltd29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This CNN article states that this was Amtrak's 9th derailment this year? Did I miss some of them? A quick wikipedia search reveals only the Halifax, NC derailment where an idiot truck driver got in the way. Amtrak would be running out of equipment if there were that many wrecks.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> There's lots of little ones that hardly anyone hears about. The Cardinal derailed on the NEC here in Odenton earlier this year when a wheel broke. All cars remained upright and nobody was injured, the track was OOS for about a week to get things cleared up.
> 
> 
> 
> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> The AP came up with 107mph using maths from the surveillance footage posted earlier. They noted that the playback in the footage is slightly slower then real-time.
> 
> peter
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that's a little high, if I have the train length right (I think so), then it would take a time of 4 seconds. Looking at the timer in the corner (avoiding any issues with playback speed) I make out closer to 5. Maybe 4.5, which would put it around 100. Still, in the ballpark, and roughly twice as fast as it should have been going.
Click to expand...

 Here is what little information they give on their findings:



Associated Press said:


> An analysis by The Associated Press of surveillance video just before the deadly crash of an Amtrak train in Philadelphia indicates it was traveling about 107 miles per hour as it approached a curve where the speed limit was 50 miles per hour.
> 
> The video shows the train — which was roughly 662 feet long — passes the camera in just over five seconds. But AP found that the surveillance video plays back slightly slower than in real time.
> 
> So, adjusting for the slower playback puts the train's estimated speed at 107 miles per hour. The surveillance camera was located at a site just before the bend in the tracks.
> 
> The crash killed seven people and injured more than 200.


peter


----------



## Ryan

Thanks for sharing that. We're agreed on train length, and I'm pretty confidant in my timing, unless the realtime clock in the video isn't actually realtime.


----------



## Eric S

Guess Guest said:


> capltd29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This CNN article states that this was Amtrak's 9th derailment this year? Did I miss some of them? A quick wikipedia search reveals only the Halifax, NC derailment where an idiot truck driver got in the way. Amtrak would be running out of equipment if there were that many wrecks.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> But...FOX NEWS!
> 
> As far as infrastructure goes, iirc, there was a trillion dollars of shovel-ready projects spent about 6 years ago.
> 
> How'd that work out?
Click to expand...

What trillion dollars of infrastructure spending? Care to share a link or source for that claim?


----------



## spacecadet

NTSB confirms train was going faster than 100mph prior to the derailment.

https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/598566397241913346

"Prior to" could still mean at any time before, though. But I doubt they'd release the info if they didn't mean "just" prior.


----------



## PRR 60

The maximum permissible speed at any location between 30th Street Station and the Frankford Junction curve (accident scene) is 80mph. Even for tangent running prior to the curve, the train was in excess of 20mph overspeed.


----------



## The Chief

So tech travel uber enthusiast

*Jason Rabinowitz* posted this screen grab on his Twitter home* @airlineflyer*

from our familiar *Amtrak*'s Track A Train app.

Jason notes, "Last night, I saved the final tracker data from #*Amtrak* train 188 before it cleared. Last data showed speed of 106mph."

Well done Jason.


----------



## capltd29

Guess Guest said:


> capltd29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This CNN article states that this was Amtrak's 9th derailment this year? Did I miss some of them? A quick wikipedia search reveals only the Halifax, NC derailment where an idiot truck driver got in the way. Amtrak would be running out of equipment if there were that many wrecks.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/13/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> But...FOX NEWS!
> 
> As far as infrastructure goes, iirc, there was a trillion dollars of shovel-ready projects spent about 6 years ago.
> 
> How'd that work out?
Click to expand...

You recall incorrectly. There has never been a trillion dollars spent on Amtrak or passenger rail in the united states. Period.


----------



## guest-facts-please

NTSB has released their "B-roll" on-the-ground video of crash site https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHveDL-BX24&feature=youtu.be

Might fuel more speculation before Member Sumwalt does the first official press briefing in an hour or so


----------



## NW cannonball

The bent-up shape of that first passenger car is really scary.


----------



## printman2000

guest-facts-please said:


> NTSB has released their "B-roll" on-the-ground video of crash site https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHveDL-BX24&feature=youtu.be
> 
> Might fuel more speculation before Member Sumwalt does the first official press briefing in an hour or so


There are some big scuff marks on the side of the loco. Looks like it may have scraped the side of one of the catenary towers first. Perhaps then getting between the loco and first car disconnecting them and causing the horrific damage.


----------



## Bierboy

Amtrak statement released this past hour -- http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251628184602


----------



## afigg

PRR 60 said:


> The maximum permissible speed at any location between 30th Street Station and the Frankford Junction curve (accident scene) is 80mph. Even for tangent running prior to the curve, the train was in excess of 20mph overspeed.


That is what I find really bizarre about the incident. If #188 was really running well above 80 mph, this is more than just an engineer neglecting to slow down from a higher permissible speed approaching the curve. The train was apparently already above permitted speed.

BTW, with regards to the cable network coverage, CNN really, really needs to expand their pool of go to "experts" when a transportation accident or incident occurs. They rely way too much on a small pool of (mostly) aviation "experts" for their around the clock coverage approach. Who are out of their depth when it comes to railroads, transit, ships, whatever CNN is covering. Have a couple of (real) railroad experts on the call list, CNN.


----------



## PRR 60

This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.

Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.


----------



## NAVYBLUE

jis said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not looking good for Amtrak or the engineer; he's refusing to speak with authorities -- http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ebc621a9cd1b4abd9f2bf2b50fa12d05/latest-amtrak-crash-ntsb-crew-heads-derailment
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this is exactly what they are trained to do. Even elsewhere in the industry we are always instructed not to talk to anyone in the absence of counsel. So in normal course of things I would expect them to not talk to "authorities" without having properly trained counsel present.
> Incidentally there are other reports that indicate that both the Engineer and the Conductor have spoken to NTSB in the presence of counsel. Maybe it is just a case of the poor chaps at Philadelphia Police being a bit miffed that they refused to talk to their little investigation in the absence of counsel and want to get a bit of mileage out of it.
Click to expand...

 Exactly. Me and "the boys" have been instructed by our attorney.

Never speak to anyone in the media. Never, ever.

Never speak to the police. Never, ever.

Never speak to anyone wearing a badge. Never, ever.

Never speak to anyone in authority. Never, ever.

Until she gets there

What you say WILL be held against you.


----------



## saxman

Lots of talk about infrastructure spending on MSNBC. Right after the House committee voted to slash Amtrak funding just a few hours ago.


----------



## Guess Guest

Don’t get me wrong. I am opposed to decreased funding for Amtrak. However, these sorts of discussions remind me of Emmanuel’s “Never let a crisis go to waste” mentality.

How would increased infrastructure spending have prevented this tragedy?


----------



## NAVYBLUE

fillyjonk said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bieng a former reporter, I am LIVID at the reporting going on right now on the Fox News web site. Here's a sample of the headlines...
> 
> 
> "Is America's national railroad a disaster waiting to happen?"
> "Amtrak's history checkered by crashes, warnings"
> "questions mount over concerns that have dogged the service for years -- from its contentious relationship with the federal government and its annual plea for funding to its history of deadly accidents."
> What a load of steaming BS....
> 
> 
> 
> My sentiments exactly. Maybe it has been fixed but the article also said that 2 people on board the CONO that hit the flatbed pickup truck were killed. To use this tragedy to flog Amtrak is pitiful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Eh, if it bleeds, it leads. If you can gin up fake outrage, it gets viewers. (FOX seems especially big with the "let's try to make people outraged" stories/way of reporting them. Lately CNN seems to be Plane Crash Central. I've become very cynical about the news. I generally prefer to read it on the Internet but anymore, many of the big sites make you watch their video.
> 
> Thoughts and prayers for the families of those who lost people or who are injured. That's what's mainly important here. Blame can be figured out later on.
Click to expand...

They are ALL bad. They are all owned by 7 major conglomerates. If i want to find the truth, I am not listening to US news organizations. I read Canada Free Press, Dailynail.co.uk, Der Spiegel, Jerusalem Post and others without the U.S. conglomerate filter.


----------



## Guest

I don't get how his train crash could have happened at all. It isn't hard nor expensive to have protocols in place to prevent against such incidents with multiple different ways.

With that being said I agree with the republicans on their approach towards Amtrak.


----------



## Ryan

NTSB has posted a photo set from today:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ntsb/sets/72157650427698694


----------



## George K

NTSB spox says that the train was traveling at 106 mph before emergency brakes were applied by the engineer.


----------



## NAVYBLUE

PRR 60 said:


> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.


Very good hypothesis. I read a neurology study about what "may" happen when you go to get something from another room and by the time you get there you have forgotten what you were going there for. It seems that the moment you reach the entrance to room B(where the object is) that your brain puts the memory from room A (what the object is) in to permanent memory. Your brain then starts receiving optical cues about room(B) you are going into. Is their a threat there, what room is this, do I need to turn the light on. They said as you approach room B start saying out loud what you are there to get until you get it as your auditory cue will override the visual cues. I tried it and it works.

Now imagine you are an AMTRAK engineer, going at the stated speed for your locomotive and location at NIGHT going from "room" A, B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,etc at 80 MPH. I could see you getting disoriented especially if you have undiagnosed night vision or neurolgy problems or have side effects from prescription meds or just plain confusion. I think your scenario has merit.


----------



## Guest

The NTSB photo set is an embarrassment. It would have taken just one additional person to monitor speed on the Sprinter in various different settings, yet they show photos with loads of personnel all over the place. Wasted governmet bureaucracy.

The NTSB is a mixed bag when it comes to transportation accidents.


----------



## mlhughes0522

Hey there is reports that this train was 107mph in the curve

From what I know amtrak train #188 made station stop PHI ar 9:06 dp 9:10 on time

How far is the wreck site from the PHI station?


----------



## Guest

NAVYBLUE said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.
> 
> 
> 
> Very good hypothesis. I read a neurology study about what "may" happen when you go to get something from another room and by the time you get there you have forgotten what you were going there for. It seems that the moment you reach the entrance to room B(where the object is) that your brain puts the memory from room A (what the object is) in to permanent memory. Your brain then starts receiving optical cues about room(B) you are going into. Is their a threat there, what room is this, do I need to turn the light on. They said as you approach room B start saying out loud what you are there to get until you get it as your auditory cue will override the visual cues. I tried it and it works.
> Now imagine you are an AMTRAK engineer, going at the stated speed for your locomotive and location at NIGHT going from "room" A, B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,etc at 80 MPH. I could see you getting disoriented especially if you have undiagnosed night vision or neurolgy problems or have side effects from prescription meds or just plain confusion. I think you scenario has merit.
Click to expand...

Piloting a new modern jet had loads of visuals and safety record is impeccible. This was not even an older locomotive, it was the first Sprinter placed into service but it was anything but old and should have had state of the art safety features. I am wondering if this Sprinter perhaps did not have appropriate software upgrades or had other limitations as opposed to the newer models. In aviation or rail, newer models tend to work out safety glitches which do occur but they get weeded out rather quickly.


----------



## Sbburkett

First, sympathies to anyone involved directly or indirectly with this accident--I am very sorry this is something we are even having to discuss.

Now that it seems like the NTSB is verifying the train was going well beyond the speed limits, it does bring some curious things to mind.

For one, what would motivate an engineer to speed to begin with? If the engineer is to follow the rules, I can't imagine he would bear any kind of blame or responsibility if a train is "late", and it's not like he or she would be "in a hurry" for their own person agenda--like someone might be in traffic, so what personal motivation would exist for an engineer to speed?

This makes me wonder if what someone said earlier is quite plausible--that the engineer lost his bearings, thinking he was somewhere else where speed was allowed. It also explains why he would have applied the emergency brake--because there must not have been an intentional purpose to do this, otherwise why bother to apply any brake at all?

Very interesting to see how all of this will end up...

And again, sympathies for the injuries and losses involved with this.


----------



## Paul CHI

Are the speed limits reported to a screen in the cab?


----------



## George K

PRR 60 said:


> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.


I don't know the geography of the area, and your scenario makes sense. However, from what NTSB just said, the train had stopped at a station 11 minutes before the accident. The engineer was clearly situationally aware enough to stop and depart from the station - would it be that easy to get disoriented that quickly?


----------



## PerRock

Guest said:


> The NTSB photo set is an embarrassment. It would have taken just one additional person to monitor speed on the Sprinter in various different settings, yet they show photos with loads of personnel all over the place. Wasted governmet bureaucracy.
> 
> The NTSB is a mixed bag when it comes to transportation accidents.


The NTSB photo gallery is really more geared towards press agencies which might not have access to pictures otherwise. Last I checked the Washington Post Wire story (for instance) didn't have any photos with it. And yes I know the WPO story on their public website did. A lot of government agencies are switching to Flikr for their press photos.

peter


----------



## Ryan

I'm going to be that guy and play coy here.

I've heard a story that takes the fault off of the engineer and a picture that seems to back the story up.

I don't want to be a rumor monger, so I'm not going to repeat it, but I'd suggest a healthy dose of "don't jump to conclusions".


----------



## rrdude

Listening to NPR, recorded at a news conference, it DOES look very, very, likely that the speed was indeed WAY over. (as many have speculated, and as Ryan deduced from the CCTC video) Amtrak's TRAIN TRACKER was also, in this case, apparently accurate.

Damn that's fast, I too, would like to know "how can that happen" on the NEC. PTC would have prevented this, (in theory) "Yes"?


----------



## BrianPR3

whats the report that trains in the area were targeted with bricks?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

George K said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the geography of the area, and your scenario makes sense. However, from what NTSB just said, the train had stopped at a station 11 minutes before the accident. The engineer was clearly situationally aware enough to stop and depart from the station - would it be that easy to get disoriented that quickly?
Click to expand...

George, read the last paragraph about the train, which also had just left a station, that went 2 miles w/o apparently realizing s/he was on the wrong tracks. So, yes, it's possible.


----------



## NW cannonball

NAVYBLUE said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.
> 
> 
> 
> Very good hypothesis. I read a neurology study about what "may" happen when you go to get something from another room and by the time you get there you have forgotten what you were going there for.  It seems that the moment you reach the entrance to room B(where the object is) that your brain puts the memory from room A (what the object is) in to permanent memory. Your brain then starts receiving optical cues about room(B) you are going into. Is their a threat there, what room is this, do I need to turn the light on. They said as you approach room B start saying out loud what you are there to get until you get it as your auditory cue will override the visual cues. I tried it and it works.
> Now imagine you are an AMTRAK engineer, going at the stated speed for your locomotive and location at NIGHT going from "room" A, B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,etc at 80 MPH. I could see you getting disoriented especially if you have undiagnosed night vision or neurolgy problems or have side effects from prescription meds or just plain confusion. I think your scenario has merit.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, for us humans, sometimes our brains fill in the perceptual gaps totally wrong.

I know that I, once, put the dish soap in my coffee cup and the cream in the dishwasher.

Programmed (by humans) algorithms can help, but --.

Positive Train Control might have helped with this situation.


----------



## Ryan

BrianPR3 said:


> whats the report that trains in the area were targeted with bricks?


A SEPTA train passing through the area just before this had a window broken out by a "projectile".

edit: link http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/05/13/septa-says-commuter-train-hit-by-projectile-just-before-amtrak-train-derailed/


----------



## NW cannonball

So, what did the first NTSB media briefing reveal?


----------



## Guest

Reminds me of Donald Rumsfeld talking about unknown unknowns. Fortunately death toll was minimal and it could have been much worse.

All wreckage is easily identifiable and shown and yes there were two trains before which had damage, not that much earlier and by this accident. It also seems odd that the engineer is refusing to talk according to news reports since even if it was an accident I would want my story on the record but instead the engineer is not talking.


----------



## Barciur

If you look a few posts up, there are clear explanations for why he was not speaking to anybody.


----------



## George K

Completely understand why he wouldn't talk to anyone without lawyering up. And that's not intended to be a criticism. In the heat of the moment, people speak without thinking about what they say.

Did you know that "inadvertent" means "careless" as well as "unintentional"? Never, ever, say inadvertent. It means you weren't paying attention - you were careless.

Barciur, thanks for the reference to the awareness post.


----------



## Rover

NTSB Twitter Feed:



> Sumwalt: Authorized speed in the curve was 50 mph. Speed when “engineer induced braking” was applied was 106 mph.


https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/598598972157071361



> Sumwalt: 3 seconds later, data terminated with #Amtrak train speed at 102 mph.


https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/598599150054281216


----------



## fairviewroad

Ryan said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> whats the report that trains in the area were targeted with bricks?
> 
> 
> 
> A SEPTA train passing through the area just before this had a window broken out by a "projectile".
> 
> edit: link http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/05/13/septa-says-commuter-train-hit-by-projectile-just-before-amtrak-train-derailed/
Click to expand...

The projectile incident was about 3 1/2 miles from the derailment. That's a world away in terms of a big city like Philadelphia.

It's hard to see how those two things would be linked. But weird, yes.


----------



## Ryan

The SEPTA train was traveling the opposite direction, they were stopped 3.5 miles apart.


----------



## fairviewroad

Ryan said:


> The SEPTA train was traveling the opposite direction, they were stopped 3.5 miles apart.


The article you posted described it as a "Trenton-bound commuter train" which would put it in the same direction as the Amtrak train

and that the projectile broke the window "near SEPTA’s North Philadelphia station" which is indeed about 3.5 miles from the crash site.


----------



## Slayer Essence

How much responsibility or "blame" does the conductor share in a speeding incident like this?


----------



## Triley

Slayer Essence said:


> How much responsibility or "blame" does the conductor share in a speeding incident like this?


The conductor is the one in charge of the train, and unfortunately can share the same responsibility as the engineer.


----------



## Ryan

fairviewroad said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The SEPTA train was traveling the opposite direction, they were stopped 3.5 miles apart.
> 
> 
> 
> The article you posted described it as a "Trenton-bound commuter train" which would put it in the same direction as the Amtrak train
> 
> and that the projectile broke the window "near SEPTA’s North Philadelphia station" which is indeed about 3.5 miles from the crash site.
Click to expand...

My bad, I was thinking of this story:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_SEPTA_train_hit_by_projectile_before_Amtrak_crash.html

Both a northbound SEPTA train and a southbound Acela were damaged just prior to the derailment.


----------



## mgl1978

I dug up my old 1978 track chart. It was created for the FRA northeast corriddor improvement project in July 1978. It shows some 70mph sections before the frandfurt junction. The curve is show as a 50 mph - 4 degree curve. I know it's old. I also don't know why it shows 2 really short stretches of 90/100 mph on either side of the curve.


----------



## Guest

NW cannonball said:


> NAVYBLUE said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.
> 
> 
> 
> Very good hypothesis. I read a neurology study about what "may" happen when you go to get something from another room and by the time you get there you have forgotten what you were going there for. It seems that the moment you reach the entrance to room B(where the object is) that your brain puts the memory from room A (what the object is) in to permanent memory. Your brain then starts receiving optical cues about room(B) you are going into. Is their a threat there, what room is this, do I need to turn the light on. They said as you approach room B start saying out loud what you are there to get until you get it as your auditory cue will override the visual cues. I tried it and it works.
> Now imagine you are an AMTRAK engineer, going at the stated speed for your locomotive and location at NIGHT going from "room" A, B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,etc at 80 MPH. I could see you getting disoriented especially if you have undiagnosed night vision or neurolgy problems or have side effects from prescription meds or just plain confusion. I think your scenario has merit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately, for us humans, sometimes our brains fill in the perceptual gaps totally wrong.
> 
> I know that I, once, put the dish soap in my coffee cup and the cream in the dishwasher.
> 
> Programmed (by humans) algorithms can help, but --.
> 
> Positive Train Control might have helped with this situation.
Click to expand...

No one else here, ever arrived at work, without any memory of how you got there? Yea, you could surmise that you drove, because your car is there too, and you must have done such safely, because you and your car are in good condition.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Guest said:


> No one else here, ever arrived at work, without any memory of how you got there? Yea, you could surmise that you drove, because your car is there too, and you must have done such safely, because you and your car are in good condition.


*raises hand*

I do a summer theater each year and sometimes wonder how I got home late at night. I figure my car has autopilot and knows it's way home. Yes, I'm aware of traffic, curves, etc.


----------



## PerRock

rrdude said:


> Damn that's fast, I too, would like to know "how can that happen" on the NEC. PTC would have prevented this, (in theory) "Yes"?


Yes, PTC would have in theory stopped it, however PTC hadn't been installed into that section yet.

peter


----------



## Glenn

I find the reaction to this on this site to be remarkably different from the usual callous posts that follow and train/pedestrian/vehicle collision which are invariably remarked upon with snarky/condescending/insulting posts. I have no idea why this train was operating at 106 in a 50 mph section and we should wait to find out. Maybe those quick to make jokes about people killed by trains should take that approach in the future.

That the engineer has "lawyered up" is predictable, but distressing. There's going to be weeks of information about track, equipment, blah, blah. But, the bottom line is that 106 around this curve is the issue and why this guy was going that fast may never be known.


----------



## Guest

There was also a crazy man shot dead by cops as he attacked them near Penn Station who has had previous trouble with the law.

But alas unrelated to this case. As far as projectile in the same vicinity, perhaps the infrastructure in this section was problematic to begin with but projectiles are not fault of the train operators. The speeding and usage of the emergency break at high speed would cause a crash in any incident.

I am curious, if he didn't use emergency break and was still over the speed limit, would the outcome have been better? Seems odd he sped then just rammed the emergency brakes.


----------



## guest

Guest Glenn: Your first paragraph makes an excellent point. There are always some very callous posts when pedestrians or vehicles are involved. Fatal accidents are always tragic imo.

CNN still pushing the "Are trains more dangerous now?" type stuff. Engineer's name is Brandon Bostian, 4 years as an engineer.

Mayor Nutter earlier declared him "reckless" and without any excuse, but NTSB, as is the norm for them, are not jumping to any conclusions as to the cause of the excessive speed.

CNN also mistaken about Mobile accident, saying bridge collapsed to cause the accident. I don't understand all the Fox bashing.

All involved with the accident remain in my thoughts and prayers.


----------



## capltd29

guest said:


> Guest Glenn: Your first paragraph makes an excellent point. There are always some very callous posts when pedestrians or vehicles are involved. Fatal accidents are always tragic imo.
> 
> CNN still pushing the "Are trains more dangerous now?" type stuff. Engineer's name is Brandon Bostian, 4 years as an engineer.
> 
> Mayor Nutter earlier declared him "reckless" and without any excuse, but NTSB, as is the norm for them, are not jumping to any conclusions as to the cause of the excessive speed.
> 
> CNN also mistaken about Mobile accident, saying bridge collapsed to cause the accident. I don't understand all the Fox bashing.
> 
> All involved with the accident remain in my thoughts and prayers.


I've been watching MSNBC, and usually their coverage is pretty good.. but for some reason they've been just abysmal. Maybe it's just my knowledge on this topic that makes it more apparent. I think the problem with Fox is that their "journalism" has extended far beyond the accident and begun persecuting Amtrak for everything that has happened since May 1 '71 and blaming them for being broke without really talking about the problem.


----------



## PRR 60

Where's Joe Boardman? Not one statement, not one appearance, not at the site, not visiting the victims. No, he can't change what happened, but he should be out front just as he is when accepting new cars or playing the political game. Is he just a fair weather CEO, or is he someone who should be the face of Amtrak in good times and bad?

I'm checking the milk in our fridge. I'm betting Boardman's photo is on the side of the carton.


----------



## Rover

The PBS Newhour May 13th speaks with NTSB's Robert Sumwalt

https://youtu.be/73hB_aOREEI

and

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/derailed-train-going-twice-speed-limit-says-ntsb/

and

Amtrak Engineer of Derailed Train Identified as Brandon Bostian



> National Transportation Safety Board member Robert Sumwalt said that their go-team have not yet met with the engineer, but they "plan to."
> 
> "This person has gone through a very traumatic event and we want to give him the opportunity to convalesce for a day or so before we interview him," Sumwalt said.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/GMABig/amtrak-engineer-derailed-train-identified-brandon-bostian/story?id=31023810


----------



## eblkheart

PPR: I was wondering the same myself. I haven't seen anything from Amtrak, except press releases and advisories.


----------



## NE933

Right on PRR 60. Boardman needs to get up and say something, for his absence shows either a lack of energy to withstand the pressure, or a lack of delegates to run 60 Mass Ave in his absence.


----------



## capltd29

Well, I don't know where he is... and he probably should play a greater public role, at least for perception. He's also dealing with possibly the greatest Amtrak service disruption in history, so it's doubtful he's just sitting at home twiddling his thumbs.


----------



## desertflyer

It is amazing to me how many people on Twitter are commenting that the Amtrak crew should have been paying attention, as if it is that simple. They seem to think the "conductor" should have stopped the train from the back because an overspeed was apparently so blatantly obvious. Sorry, I guess I'm venting to people who actually understand a bit more about how the system works.

There was probably only one person in that cab and if something happened to incapacitate them, even only for a minute, it could have caused this accident. This reminds me of that recent viral video where a guy in his 20's was driving his brand new Mustang on the freeway, only to pass out and almost have a terrible crash. That guy had no prior history of fainting, but happened to have low blood pressure that day.

We are all human, we can make mistakes. I firmly believe PTC could have and should have prevented this accident. We need to stop toying with Amtrak's budget each and every year, and start paying for these crucial safety upgrades. I get that crashes are rare, but we as a nation can afford to pay for this.


----------



## guesty

I've never been on an Amtrak train. I was going on my first train ride from ny penn to Washington dc this upcoming sat 5/16 with my 3 children. I bought the "saver" fare. I called Amtrak today and spoke to a very, very rude woman who said I cannot get a refund because I bought the saver fare. but if the trains are not running, how can they hold my money hostage? the woman said that the trains are running. I told her that according to the news and the mayor, no trains are running. she reiterated I bought the saver fare and asked if I read the non refundable disclosure. I replied yes I understood, but in light of this disaster and the train potentially not running, I need to cancel my hotel and tour reservations before I get a penalty.

I realize this is very unusual, but what am I supposed to do? I can't hold onto reservations (hotel/tours) if I can't get into DC, and if I cancel them but can't cancel the train, I can't go anyway because all my other stuff I would've already cancelled. anyone have any suggestions? thank you.


----------



## R30A

Call back. Make same complaint. If you get nowhere, ask for supervisor. Keep going up. If that doesn't work, file a complaint. Usually they are very good at coming up with appropriate refunds in such cases, and will often give you a voucher for a bad experience.


----------



## Eric S

RIght now it's day-to-day as far as what services are operating, so it's not been officially announced that there will not be service on Sat, May 16. So far, Amtrak has only announced that there will be no service between Philadelphia and New York on May 14, but has not stated what will take place on May 15 and beyond.

ETA: I should add that my assumption is that because Amtrak has not yet canceled service on May 15-16 the representative you spoke with cannot refund the tickets for you. That does not, however, justify rude treatment you may have received.


----------



## Ryan

Give it some time to shake out and see when it looks like service is going to return. I assume penalties kick in with the hotels 24 hours before checkin? That's plenty of time to see how things develop.


----------



## CCC1007

Why not try to reschedule for another weekend? There should be no penalty for modification to another weekend if you use amsnag.net to find a similar or lower fare.


----------



## Guest

Not sure where Boardman is, but it isn't his fault and he likely is hard at work with coordinating and figuring out what went wrong and everything else and didn't feel it was the time yet to make a public appearance. Im fact everything we know now is heresay so he is doing the right thing by not being so public on the matter yet. Never met but hes very upfront from what I see.

I can't even say if this engineer was responsible for the crash at this time and sabotage or mechanical or other locomotive issues especially considering it was an early model Sprinter 601, 2nd produced.

Amtrak is facing tough times now but accidents do happen in transportation even with the best intentions.

People in leadership constantly don't want to overtake the recovery and investigation process.


----------



## DryCreek

guesty said:


> I've never been on an Amtrak train. I was going on my first train ride from ny penn to Washington dc this upcoming sat 5/16 with my 3 children. I bought the "saver" fare. I called Amtrak today and spoke to a very, very rude woman who said I cannot get a refund because I bought the saver fare. but if the trains are not running, how can they hold my money hostage? the woman said that the trains are running. I told her that according to the news and the mayor, no trains are running. she reiterated I bought the saver fare and asked if I read the non refundable disclosure. I replied yes I understood, but in light of this disaster and the train potentially not running, I need to cancel my hotel and tour reservations before I get a penalty.
> 
> I realize this is very unusual, but what am I supposed to do? I can't hold onto reservations (hotel/tours) if I can't get into DC, and if I cancel them but can't cancel the train, I can't go anyway because all my other stuff I would've already cancelled. anyone have any suggestions? thank you.


From THIS LINK: "On Thursday, May 14, modified Amtrak service with fewer frequencies than normal will be provided between Washington and Philadelphia, Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and New York and Boston."

Your ticket is a contract for carriage. You will be able to get from NYPenn to Washington. It may be on an alternate route, or your trip may be broken up with a bus substituted between two points. By Saturday they should have the other (inner) tracks that were not damaged open.

If you are still worried about the trip you can always reschedule and cite the accident as the reason.


----------



## rtabern

I went to bed early last night and didnt even hear about the wreck until I gpt up this morning. My wife was on FB and saw people posting to his page they are glad he was ok and was on the train. Then around 7:30a people posted he was the engineer. Ive now been contacted by several national media outlets trying to buy pictures of him. Pathetic.


----------



## FormerOBS

I can't resist chiming in on the subject of the engineer's silence. As far as I can tell, the only source claiming that he is refusing to make a statement, is the Philadelphia Police Dept. We are still in a "fog of war" situation and inundated with inept reporters, so I'm not sure. It would be totally inappropriate for the engineer to make a statement to the Philadelphia Police because they are not the appropriate investigatory body. The National Transportation Safety Board has specific expertise in a case like this, so the engineer should speak to them before anybody else. Questions from policemen who don't understand the vocabulary and technology of railroading can lead to answers that can be misleading to those uninformed policemen, and can create more confusion than light. Such misleading questions could conceivably plant inappropriate and inaccurate images in the mind of this very important witness. I think I read only one report that said he was refusing to talk to NTSB, and I discount this because I haven't heard it backed up anywhere else.

If I were in the engineer's shoes, I'd be equally cautious and insistent on legal representation, whether I thought I'd done the right thing or the wrong thing. Wouldn't any prudent person?

I'm impatient for answers too. However, as I've suggested before, speculation can be interesting; but jumping to conclusions is a lot like jumping off a cliff.

Tom


----------



## George K

FormerOBS said:


> I can't resist chiming in on the subject of the engineer's silence. As far as I can tell, the only source claiming that he is refusing to make a statement, is the Philadelphia Police Dept.


And the Mayor of Philadelphia said it was "reckless." Amazing.


----------



## VentureForth

Triley said:


> Slayer Essence said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much responsibility or "blame" does the conductor share in a speeding incident like this?
> 
> 
> 
> The conductor is the one in charge of the train, and unfortunately can share the same responsibility as the engineer.
Click to expand...

Again, an argument supporting an operations conductor as well as a passenger's conductor.


----------



## Ryan

rtabern said:


> I went to bed early last night and didnt even hear about the wreck until I gpt up this morning. My wife was on FB and saw people posting to his page they are glad he was ok and was on the train. Then around 7:30a people posted he was the engineer. Ive now been contacted by several national media outlets trying to buy pictures of him. Pathetic.


 Amen. His name an picture are making the rounds in the FB groups, and they're slowly getting pulled down by admins that don't want to see him drug through the mud.


----------



## FormerOBS

I understand NPR's Diane Reehm Show plans to cover this tomorrow. No info on which talking heads will be there.

Tom


----------



## George K

Ryan said:


> rtabern said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went to bed early last night and didnt even hear about the wreck until I gpt up this morning. My wife was on FB and saw people posting to his page they are glad he was ok and was on the train. Then around 7:30a people posted he was the engineer. Ive now been contacted by several national media outlets trying to buy pictures of him. Pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen. His name an picture are making the rounds in the FB groups, and they're slowly getting pulled down by admins that don't want to see him drug through the mud.
Click to expand...

Took me almost no time to find him on FB. I'm surprised that he, or his friends/family haven't deleted/suspended the account. Maybe he did something horrible and irresponsible. Maybe he didn't. Until the facts are in, everyone should leave him alone.


----------



## Bierboy

George K said:


> FormerOBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't resist chiming in on the subject of the engineer's silence. As far as I can tell, the only source claiming that he is refusing to make a statement, is the Philadelphia Police Dept.
> 
> 
> 
> And the Mayor of Philadelphia said it was "reckless." Amazing.
Click to expand...

Yeah who anointed him judge and jury?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

http://6abc.com/news/ntsb-amtrak-train-going-106-mph-before-crash-results-show/719624/



> The train's conductor suffered a fractured skull and is in critical condition.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

There's no sense blaming the engineer for anything unless facts emerge that prove he had something to do with the speed. While possible (even probable) there are other explanations.

I don't see why people would be upset that he has a lawyer. Legal counsel is a prudent measure whether he's innocent or guilty of anything. At the very least he and his family will need help dealing with the media and guiding them through the legal processes. If I were involved in an accident that killed somebody, I'd likely seek legal counsel even if I was innocent.


----------



## other guest again

Engineer's name and pictures have been on CNN since late afternoon. I've heard no station, except Mayor Nutter, rip him apart so far though.

CNN still spouting "Amtrak had the technology to prevent this...." and such. Turned to Fox and they were doing a long segment on the spring break violence in FL panhandle. Had a very brief segment that said it was not known what caused the overspeed at this time. Heard nothing offensive imo, Amtrak coverage ended, and I turned back to the Amtrak coverage on CNN. They're pretty much repeating a lot of the same things. Only two cars remain to be moved.

I think the NTSB has the right approach in not drawing any conclusions about the engineer yet. It may "appear" he wasn't attentive, but it's possible other factors (medical, mechanical, or whatever) could be involved.


----------



## BuffaloBoy

I feel so bad for the passengers on 188. I have my feelings about this, but all I want to say on this post is rest in peace to those who didn't make it and wish a fast, painless recovery for those that were injured. Nuff said.

Jeff


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

I have a kind of unrelated/related question I remember a few years ago a regional blew through the Elizabeth S-Curve at over 100MPH and I can only find one quote about it here on AU from Jis. Can anyone provide a comparison of the track geometry?



jis said:


> Yes. Absolutely. Although, tilting is not particularly going to prevent tipping. The height above rail of the center of gravity of the unit would be the critical determining factor for that. The more immediate problem is how much damage is done to the track more than anything else. In an unintended event an AEM-7 with a bunch of Amfleets managed to go through the Elizabeth S-Curve at over 100mph once without derailing or tipping, but it did damage the track enough that they had to basically rebuild the track. The lack of derailment for partially credited to the stability of track on concrete ties. Also it was not a pleasant experience for the folks on the train. The conductor described the experience starting with something like "After I had picked myself off the floor and managed to hit the emergency brakes .... ", so you can imagine. The net result is that now all trains get a approach medium as it approaches the S-curve.


From this thread. 

Different geometry leading to a different outcome or did Amtrak really dodge a bullet there. Seems to me like a very similar situation with vastly different outcomes.


----------



## Ryan

Nothing alike - Google maps, set to the same scale:


----------



## Ryan

Of course, that doesn't show anything about the superelevation, which makes a huge difference.


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## Credible Guest

ALC Rail Writer said:


> There's no sense blaming the engineer for anything unless facts emerge that prove he had something to do with the speed. While possible (even probable) there are other explanations.


Exactly who in the world else would have ANYTHING at all to do with the speed of the train other than the sole occupant of the cab, the engineer? All this 'don't jump to conclusions' nonsense has surpassed the level of ludicrousness. There was no track speed greater than 80 MPH from PHL to the site of the accident...he'd already stepped in it when he hit 90 (10 over is decertifiable under FRA). To say, 'well, maybe he thought he was further down the line' makes the assumption that he didn't know where he was.
Let's take off the kid gloves and call a spade a spade. This guy stepped in it - big time. I've heard all the other bs as well....'he's a nice guy' is the other excuse people seem to be using. Railroading is not (and never should be) a popularity contest. Do your job safely and and go home, do it again tomorrow....but making excuses for this kind of disaster is pound foolish.


----------



## mgl1978

Long Train Runnin' said:


> I have a kind of unrelated/related question I remember a few years ago a regional blew through the Elizabeth S-Curve at over 100MPH and I can only find one quote about it here on AU from Jis. Can anyone provide a comparison of the track geometry?
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Absolutely. Although, tilting is not particularly going to prevent tipping. The height above rail of the center of gravity of the unit would be the critical determining factor for that. The more immediate problem is how much damage is done to the track more than anything else. In an unintended event an AEM-7 with a bunch of Amfleets managed to go through the Elizabeth S-Curve at over 100mph once without derailing or tipping, but it did damage the track enough that they had to basically rebuild the track. The lack of derailment for partially credited to the stability of track on concrete ties. Also it was not a pleasant experience for the folks on the train. The conductor described the experience starting with something like "After I had picked myself off the floor and managed to hit the emergency brakes .... ", so you can imagine. The net result is that now all trains get a approach medium as it approaches the S-curve.
> 
> 
> 
> From this thread.
> 
> Different geometry leading to a different outcome or did Amtrak really dodge a bullet there. Seems to me like a very similar situation with vastly different outcomes.
Click to expand...

According to my old track chart the curve at Elizabeth had a max curvature of 2.23 degrees versus 4 degrees at frankfurt junction. The speed limit is 55 vs 50 respectively. That could be enough to explain the difference. See my earlier post for the track diagram of Frankfurt Junction.


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

mgl1978 said:


> Long Train Runnin' said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a kind of unrelated/related question I remember a few years ago a regional blew through the Elizabeth S-Curve at over 100MPH and I can only find one quote about it here on AU from Jis. Can anyone provide a comparison of the track geometry?
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Absolutely. Although, tilting is not particularly going to prevent tipping. The height above rail of the center of gravity of the unit would be the critical determining factor for that. The more immediate problem is how much damage is done to the track more than anything else. In an unintended event an AEM-7 with a bunch of Amfleets managed to go through the Elizabeth S-Curve at over 100mph once without derailing or tipping, but it did damage the track enough that they had to basically rebuild the track. The lack of derailment for partially credited to the stability of track on concrete ties. Also it was not a pleasant experience for the folks on the train. The conductor described the experience starting with something like "After I had picked myself off the floor and managed to hit the emergency brakes .... ", so you can imagine. The net result is that now all trains get a approach medium as it approaches the S-curve.
> 
> 
> 
> From this thread.
> 
> Different geometry leading to a different outcome or did Amtrak really dodge a bullet there. Seems to me like a very similar situation with vastly different outcomes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to my old track chart the curve at Elizabeth had a max curvature of 2.23 degrees versus 4 degrees at frankfurt junction. The speed limit is 55 vs 50 respectively. That could be enough to explain the difference. See my earlier post for the track diagram of Frankfurt Junction.
Click to expand...

Thanks to both of you for posting more information. I couldn't help but think about the incident in Elizabeth and this. One has long been forgotten, and the other will be in our minds for a long time to come.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

ALC Rail Writer said:


> Credible Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no sense blaming the engineer for anything unless facts emerge that prove he had something to do with the speed. While possible (even probable) there are other explanations.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly who in the world else would have ANYTHING at all to do with the speed of the train other than the sole occupant of the cab, the engineer? All this 'don't jump to conclusions' nonsense has surpassed the level of ludicrousness. There was no track speed greater than 80 MPH from PHL to the site of the accident...he'd already stepped in it when he hit 90 (10 over is decertifiable under FRA). To say, 'well, maybe he thought he was further down the line' makes the assumption that he didn't know where he was.
> Let's take off the kid gloves and call a spade a spade. This guy stepped in it - big time. I've heard all the other bs as well....'he's a nice guy' is the other excuse people seem to be using. Railroading is not (and never should be) a popularity contest. Do your job safely and and go home, do it again tomorrow....but making excuses for this kind of disaster is pound foolish.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Couldn't we wait and see what the NTSB has to say about this relatively new engine? Is it really implausible to consider there was a mechanical failure? I don't know this engineer, I can't speak for his character. I can say that a train is a complicated system with possibilities for failure that must be examined as part of a comprehensive investigation that looks for the contributing factors of the accident.

Refusal to acknowledge these possibilities will not make rail travel safer and indeed disqualifies you as 'credible'.

Provide the evidence that dismisses these reasonable doubts and others will abide by your conclusion.


----------



## rusty spike

Credible Guest said:


> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no sense blaming the engineer for anything unless facts emerge that prove he had something to do with the speed. While possible (even probable) there are other explanations.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly who in the world else would have ANYTHING at all to do with the speed of the train other than the sole occupant of the cab, the engineer?
Click to expand...

A mechanical or electronic malfunction for one thing. Why don' t we let the facts come in and avoid the "lynch mob" mentality. OK?


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## Guest

Someone with more knowledge than I: if something became wrong with the brakes just before the curve, and the engineer knew it, what would the engineer do in order to save the situation that might work?


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## amtrakwolverine

Guest said:


> Someone with more knowledge than I: if something became wrong with the brakes just before the curve, and the engineer knew it, what would the engineer do in order to save the situation that might work?


If the brakes failed the only thing would be either dynamic brakes or put the engine in reverse to try and slow it down.


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## WICT106

I have to share my wonderment and disappointment here as well. How could this engineer go that far over the speed limit in ACSES territory ?


----------



## Guestly

If that segment of track around Frankford Junction and Shore Interlocking wasn't equipped with ACSES, wouldn't the cab still receive a Signal Speed Display (Instead of a Track Speed Display, which is active when ACSES is Cut-In), and thereby trigger a Penalty Brake Application if an Overspeed Condition wasn't corrected? Or am I mixing the systems up?

This "expert" Michael-something on MSNBC was talking about how the PTC system can be Cut-in and Out by the Engineer when they need to "make up time," which is absolute ludicrous. A malfunction is one thing, but to make up time? Come on...


----------



## Guest3

It will be very interesting to see what the LDVR shows when they get the footage.


----------



## capltd29

Guestly said:


> If that segment of track around Frankford Junction and Shore Interlocking wasn't equipped with ACSES, wouldn't the cab still receive a Signal Speed Display (Instead of a Track Speed Display, which is active when ACSES is Cut-In), and thereby trigger a Penalty Brake Application if an Overspeed Condition wasn't corrected? Or am I mixing the systems up?
> 
> This "expert" Michael-something on MSNBC was talking about how the PTC system can be Cut-in and Out by the Engineer when they need to "make up time," which is absolute ludicrous. A malfunction is one thing, but to make up time? Come on...


Mayor Nutter was saying the same thing. I mean, you'd have to be an idiot to think that was actually the motivation of the engineer. These people should keep their mouths shut if they aren't saying anything intelligible.


----------



## chakk

Amazing! Only took 137 posts on this thread before Godwin's Law applied.


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

amtrakwolverine said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone with more knowledge than I: if something became wrong with the brakes just before the curve, and the engineer knew it, what would the engineer do in order to save the situation that might work?
> 
> 
> 
> If the brakes failed the only thing would be either dynamic brakes or put the engine in reverse to try and slow it down.
Click to expand...


Air brakes on trains are designed to fail closed. So if the system lost air pressure the brakes would go into full application.


----------



## amtrakwolverine

Long Train Runnin said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone with more knowledge than I: if something became wrong with the brakes just before the curve, and the engineer knew it, what would the engineer do in order to save the situation that might work?
> 
> 
> 
> If the brakes failed the only thing would be either dynamic brakes or put the engine in reverse to try and slow it down.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Air brakes on trains are designed to fail closed. So if the system lost air pressure the brakes would go into full application.
Click to expand...

I know how they work. But if something prevented them from being applied like a blockage or kink in the line. It has happened before though not on Amtrak.


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## BrianPR3

im a member of another forum nyctf, and some members posted the image in the article of the engine and someone else noticed what they think looks to be bullet holes? are you seeing what looks like what they are too?

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_Amtrak_Derailment__What_we_know.html


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## Ryan

That's an interesting theory.


----------



## cirdan

rusty spike said:


> A mechanical or electronic malfunction for one thing. Why don' t we let the facts come in and avoid the "lynch mob" mentality. OK?


Software errors can occur but are highly unlikely.

However, just in case the software goes crazy (as you can never be 100% sure), there is still a hard reset option with which the engineer can bypass the software and apply the brakes directly using an emergency air valve which I think is located on the underside of the control desk. I think there is similarly a switch to shut down all power on a low level bypassing the software.


----------



## Guest

cirdan said:


> However, just in case the software goes crazy (as you can never be 100% sure), there is still a hard reset option with which the engineer can bypass the software and apply the brakes directly using an emergency air valve which I think is located on the underside of the control desk. I think there is similarly a switch to shut down all power on a low level bypassing the software.


Isn't this what happened? The engineer engaged the emergency air brakes, but apparently, not soon enough.


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## FormerOBS

On the morning of January 15, 1953, the Pennsylvania Railroad's train 173, the Federal Express, was approaching Washington Union Station when the brakes failed due to an angle **** that had been inadvertently left in the closed position, probably by a Baltimore car inspector, although there may still be some question as to who was at fault. The train crashed into the station with GG1 locomotive 4876 and two cars going through the floor, into a lower level baggage room. The locomotive still exists, owned by the B&O Railroad Museum in Baltimore, and is evidently a low priority for restoration. This was a very unusual ---almost freakish --- accident, but such things do happen.

A mechanical problem is still a possible explanation for this one, too. Don't jump to conclusions.

Tom


----------



## afigg

I don't know if this was posted earlier in this thread, but just for the record, the status map's archive on-time report for #188(5/12) is posted below. #188 departed 30th Street Station on time.



Code:


* Train 188 of 05/12/2015. 
* THIS TRAIN EXPERIENCED A SERVICE DISRUPTION.
* Northeast Regional
* +---------------- Station Code
* |    +----------- Schedule Arrival Day 
* |    |  +-------- Schedule Arrival Time
* |    |  |     +----- Schedule Departure Day
* |    |  |     |  +-- Schedule Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     +------------- Actual Arrival Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     +------- Actual Departure Time
* |    |  |     |  |     |     |     +- Comments
* V    V  V     V  V     V     V     V
* WAS  *  *     1  710P  *     716P  Departed:  6 minutes late.
* NCR  *  *     1  722P  *     725P  Departed:  3 minutes late.
* BWI  *  *     1  737P  *     739P  Departed:  2 minutes late.
* BAL  *  *     1  754P  *     755P  Departed:  1 minute late.
* ABE  *  *     1  816P  *     817P  Departed:  1 minute late.
* WIL  *  *     1  843P  *     846P  Departed:  3 minutes late.
* PHL  *  *     1  910P  *     910P  Departed:  On time.
  TRE  *  *     1  937P
  MET  *  *     1  959P
  NWK  *  *     1  1014P
  NYP  1  1034P *  *


----------



## afigg

BrianPR3 said:


> im a member of another forum nyctf, and some members posted the image in the article of the engine and someone else noticed what they think looks to be bullet holes? are you seeing what looks like what they are too?


If the windshield of the locomotive had been hit by bullets, I'm pretty sure the FBI and NTSB would know it and we would be seeing a full court press criminal investigation underway. The video from inside the cab looking forward through a part of the windshield could show when the windshield damage occurred. Presumably the windshield was damaged by debris during the derailment.


----------



## keelhauled

I'm sitting at Baltimore Peen Station right now waiting for a MARC train. They seem to have cancelled all Acelas on the south end of the corridor. 185 originated in Philadelphia. 174 is listed as going to New York, but I assume it's terminating in Philadelphia The Carolinian originated at Philadelphia. The Crescent, oddly, seems to be terminating in Baltimore, unless the board is wrong about that too.


----------



## VentureForth

afigg said:


> I don't know if this was posted earlier in this thread, but just for the record, the status map's archive on-time report for #188(5/12) is posted below. #188 departed 30th Street Station on time.
> 
> <SNIP>


There was a quote in some article somewhere about someone saying the train was 15 minutes late when they boarded.

Glad to see reality smack in the face of conjecture.


----------



## Ryan

afigg said:


> If the windshield of the locomotive had been hit by bullets, I'm pretty sure the FBI and NTSB would know it and we would be seeing a full court press criminal investigation underway.


What makes you think that they don't know and that this isn't happening?


----------



## neroden

Guestly said:


> If that segment of track around Frankford Junction and Shore Interlocking wasn't equipped with ACSES, wouldn't the cab still receive a Signal Speed Display (Instead of a Track Speed Display, which is active when ACSES is Cut-In), and thereby trigger a Penalty Brake Application if an Overspeed Condition wasn't corrected?


OK. As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong) the difference is this. With ACSES operating, the train would have had to slow down sufficiently far in advance to reach the correct speed limit before hitting the curve, and ACSES would have kicked the brakes on early enough to enable this.
Without ACSES, the train could blow through at excessive speed, the engineer would be told to hit the brakes, and if he didn't, the automatic system wouldn't hit the brakes until a bit *later*... by which time the train might have derailed around a curve, or whatever.

In short, properly working ACSES should activate the brakes earlier than the other systems. (In the case of an engineer who has not acted correctly for whatever reason, disability, confusion, or whatever.)

I've also been told that not all the curve speed restrictions are programmed into the old cab signal system, and that only with ACSES are all the curve speed restrictions enforced.


----------



## g. moore

Couldn't a passenger on the amtrack that crashed in phily @109 mph have stopped the train if he had a gps unit and knew that paticular sharp corner had a limit of 50 mph and they were going way too fast?


----------



## neroden

other guest again said:


> It may "appear" he wasn't attentive, but it's possible other factors (medical, mechanical, or whatever) could be involved.


While *possible*, the odds of a plain, accidental mechanical fault are very low. If there's anything which is designed to be redundant and failsafe on trains, it's braking.

Sabotage would of course be possible, since a saboteur can carefully disable multiple safety systems; recall the 1995 Sunset Limited sabotage where the track circuits were carefully kept connected while unspiking the rails.

A medical problem is extremely possible. I believe mainline trains in the US still don't have the "dead man's switch" design (where the driver must continually apply pressure to keep the train moving, so the train stops if the driver loses consciousness) that subway cars have had since a driver had a heart attack back in the 1900s.


----------



## jis

Guestly said:


> If that segment of track around Frankford Junction and Shore Interlocking wasn't equipped with ACSES, wouldn't the cab still receive a Signal Speed Display (Instead of a Track Speed Display, which is active when ACSES is Cut-In), and thereby trigger a Penalty Brake Application if an Overspeed Condition wasn't corrected? Or am I mixing the systems up?


Yes, it would still receive the coded track circuit cab signal aspect, and that would have been clear, as it typically would get a clear at Shore. So that would be no good for slowing it down at all. Potentially things could be setup so that the highest aspect received from that signal is either Approach Medium (45) or Cab Speed 60 (60) which would cause those signal speeds to be enforced. Similarly anything from North Philadelphia onwards potentially could enforce Cab Speed 80 or Cab Speed 100. But apparently that is not the way things are set up.



> This "expert" Michael-something on MSNBC was talking about how the PTC system can be Cut-in and Out by the Engineer when they need to "make up time," which is absolute ludicrous. A malfunction is one thing, but to make up time? Come on...


As usual garbage in garbage out nonsense. If an Engineer cuts out PTC without instructions from the dispatcher (typically happens to work around failure of the PTC equipment) then said Engineer can start looking for a job outside the rail industry. Such safety violations are not treated cavalierly. This may be an unfamiliar concept in the cavalier newsrooms of the media, and thus rather difficult to comprehend. They can carry on bullshitting all day based primarily on lack of knowledge and get promoted for doing so. 

But anyway, that is irrelevent, since there was no operative PTC at this location, and there is yet no indication that the cab signaling system was disabled, and as explained above, it would not have helped reduce the speed in this case anyway.


----------



## jis

No


----------



## neroden

PRR 60 said:


> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.


If I had to bet, this is what I'd bet on as well. All those northern Phildelphia suburbs look alike to me anyway...

...more reason to implement PTC. Although CSX's practice of having the engineer and conductor call every signal and every indicator board verbally might help maintain situational awareness. I've noticed that Amtrak doesn't do that.


----------



## PerRock

Engineer's Lawyer's Remarks summarized from AP:

Engineer doesn't remember crash, does have head injuries/concussion.

Claims no drugs or alcohol in system. PD/NTSB will verify.

Engineer was cooperating with authorities. Volunteered Cellphone & Blood Sample to PD. Was in custody for 5-6 hrs before lawyer got there, was cooperating thru-out.

Decision not to interview engineer at this time was by NTSB, not the Engineer or his lawyer.

"He remembers coming into curve. He remembers attempting to reduce speed and thereafter he was knocked out," Goggin said.

Engineer was distraught when he learned of the devastation.

Other News:

The dead included an Associated Press employee, a midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy, a Wells Fargo executive, a college administrator and the CEO of an educational startup. Almost if not all the names, are now publicly known. AP not reporting them in main story however (aka I have to do more digging to get them).

Mayor Michael Nutter said the engineer was clearly "reckless and irresponsible." "Part of the focus has to be, what was the engineer doing?" "Why are you traveling at that rate of speed?" NTSB is not happy with Nutter's statements, calling them: "subjective" and "judgmental."

16 victims at Temple Hospital are expected to recover.


----------



## PerRock

neroden said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had to bet, this is what I'd bet on as well. All those northern Phildelphia suburbs look alike to me anyway...
> 
> ...more reason to implement PTC. Although CSX's practice of having the engineer and conductor call every signal and every indicator board verbally might help maintain situational awareness. I've noticed that Amtrak doesn't do that.
Click to expand...

IDK about on the NEC, but train crews on the Wolverine call out the signals, speed changes, etc.

peter


----------



## dlagrua

Lots of theories and no conclusive evidence yet except for the 106 MPH speed of the train. With all of the fail safe measures on an Amtrak locomotive (especially a new one like the one in the crash) everything points to human error. What is surprising is that there are two people in an Amtrak locomotive cab and both apparently didn't notice that the train was going unusually fast heading into an area with a known curve? The engineer is not saying anything so the NTSB needs to question the conductor (they probably already have) but with two black box recorders and a video system, they know exactly what happened.


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> Potentially things could be setup so that the highest aspect received from that signal is either Approach Medium (45) or Cab Speed 60 (60) which would cause those signal speeds to be enforced.


This is what was done at Elizabeth after someone blew through there at a high rate of speed, right?


----------



## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> What is surprising is that there are two people in an Amtrak locomotive cab


No there aren't.


----------



## Triley

dlagrua said:


> Lots of theories and no conclusive evidence yet except for the 106 MPH speed of the train. With all of the fail safe measures on an Amtrak locomotive (especially a new one like the one in the crash) everything points to human error. What is surprising is that there are two people in an Amtrak locomotive cab and both apparently didn't notice that the train was going unusually fast heading into an area with a known curve? The engineer is not saying anything so the NTSB needs to question the conductor (they probably already have) but with two black box recorders and a video system, they know exactly what happened.


There's..only one person in the cab. The engineer. There should never ever be two people in the cab, unless one is a trainee, or someone qualifying on the route.


----------



## neroden

PerRock said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is beginning to sound like a gross lack of situational awareness by the engineer. In english, the engineer may have lost track of where he or she was. If he mistook the 2nd Street curve at MP 81 (prior to the accident scene) for the second Frankford Junction curve at MP 84, he may have thought he had cleared the speed-restricted area and was entering the 110mph territory. The two curves are similar in geometry, and it was night. If that happened, he may have accelerated off the MP 81 curve to nearly 110mph only have Frankford Junction appear by surprise three miles later. I can't think of another scenario which would have a train come into Frankford Junction at over 100mph other than the engineer thinking he was in 110mph territory.
> 
> Impossible? I would have thought it was impossible for a trained NEC crew to take a train with passengers up the wrong railroad for two miles, and then upon reaching the end of the track, call the dispatcher to say they were lost. It happened.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had to bet, this is what I'd bet on as well. All those northern Phildelphia suburbs look alike to me anyway...
> 
> ...more reason to implement PTC. Although CSX's practice of having the engineer and conductor call every signal and every indicator board verbally might help maintain situational awareness. I've noticed that Amtrak doesn't do that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> IDK about on the NEC, but train crews on the Wolverine call out the signals, speed changes, etc.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

They definitely don't on the Empire Corridor south of Albany. They were very laconic last time I was on the NEC, too. I'm told that in many places train crews only call "less than clear" indications. On CSX, at least in New York, they call every "clear" as well.


----------



## Ryan

Different railroads have different rules on what signals need to be called.


----------



## cpamtfan

Triley said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of theories and no conclusive evidence yet except for the 106 MPH speed of the train. With all of the fail safe measures on an Amtrak locomotive (especially a new one like the one in the crash) everything points to human error. What is surprising is that there are two people in an Amtrak locomotive cab and both apparently didn't notice that the train was going unusually fast heading into an area with a known curve? The engineer is not saying anything so the NTSB needs to question the conductor (they probably already have) but with two black box recorders and a video system, they know exactly what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> There's..only one person in the cab. The engineer. There should never ever be two people in the cab, unless one is a trainee, or someone qualifying on the route.
Click to expand...

Never is not necessarily the right wording. Railroads used to require two people upfront, and if in a curcumstance where the engineer might become unconscious or unable to control the train, there is someone who could more or less have the ability to stop the train.


----------



## Adjuct

Our local paper is putting at least a part of the blame this way:



> Despite pressure from Congress and safety regulators, Amtrak had not installed along that section of track Positive Train Control, a technology that uses GPS, wireless radio and computers to prevent trains from going over the speed limit. Most of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor is equipped with Positive Train Control.


I don't seem to remember Congress telling Amtrak, that Amtrak isn't spending enough money, and offering to give Amtrak all the money it wants/needs to completely upgrade every inch of track throughout the Northeast corridor. Do you? :unsure:


----------



## afigg

dlagrua said:


> The engineer is not saying anything so the NTSB needs to question the conductor (they probably already have) but with two black box recorders and a video system, they know exactly what happened.


The conductor is reportedly hospitalized with a fractured skull. So he may not be in any condition to answer questions for a while.

The emphasis I saw on the cable networks last night (well, those that I could stand to watch) as well as stated in the clip from the NTSB press conference was on the excessive speed entering the curve. What I would be interested in is when did the engineer first exceed the maximum speed after departing 30th Street? After the curve northeast of the North Philadelphia station?


----------



## Hochlightner

getting oddball reports from news sites....

2 children crushed to death and a female passenger was decapped???

any confirmation on this?

Hochlightner


----------



## Alex M.

This may be a forlorn hope, but I wonder if this disaster provides the impetus for Congress to at least fund the completion of PTC on all the NEC since it is a publically owned asset that is heavily used.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Hochlightner said:


> getting oddball reports from news sites....
> 
> 2 children crushed to death and a female passenger was decapped???
> 
> any confirmation on this?
> 
> Hochlightner


I had not heard this yet, but certainly seems possible.


----------



## niemi24s

cpamtfan said:


> . . .if in a curcumstance where the engineer might become unconscious or unable to control the train, there is someone who could more or less have the ability to stop the train.


Please carefully re-read this and edit it to say what you_ really_ meant. As it reads now (and i'm fairly literate) you're saying the railroads will put two people in the cab when they think one might pass out? My thinking is if they think one will pass out, why put him/her in the cab to begin with!


----------



## Ryan

No, he's saying there used to be two people up front all the time.


----------



## saxman

This whole the engineer was being willfully reckless, I find hard to believe. There's a twist to what happened other than he just simply wanted to go fast. As far as him not speaking to the police. That's standard protocal. Us heavy equipment drivers are pretty much forbidden to speak without representation. I assume his union is providing representation, unless they mean he's also hiring his own private attourney. I'm not sure which, but I'd probably do the same whether I thought I was at fault or not.


----------



## jis

PerRock said:


> IDK about on the NEC, but train crews on the Wolverine call out the signals, speed changes, etc.
> 
> peter


No signals are called out on the NEC, since signal speed enforcement is already in place all over. There is nothing to be gained by calling out signals. It would have made no difference in this accident, since the signal that he passed was in all likelihood Clear since the cab signal system did not enforce any more restrictive aspect. Anyway that will all be pretty clear from the event recorder. We just need to wait for the NTSB's findings.



dlagrua said:


> With all of the fail safe measures on an Amtrak locomotive (especially a new one like the one in the crash)


These new engines have no additional fail safe mechanisms beyond what the AEM-7s and HHP-8s and Acelas have.



> What is surprising is that there are two people in an Amtrak locomotive cab


On the NEC there is only one person in the cab (normally)


----------



## guest again

Credible Guest said:


> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no sense blaming the engineer for anything unless facts emerge that prove he had something to do with the speed. While possible (even probable) there are other explanations.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly who in the world else would have ANYTHING at all to do with the speed of the train other than the sole occupant of the cab, the engineer? All this 'don't jump to conclusions' nonsense has surpassed the level of ludicrousness. There was no track speed greater than 80 MPH from PHL to the site of the accident...he'd already stepped in it when he hit 90 (10 over is decertifiable under FRA). To say, 'well, maybe he thought he was further down the line' makes the assumption that he didn't know where he was.
> Let's take off the kid gloves and call a spade a spade. This guy stepped in it - big time. I've heard all the other bs as well....'he's a nice guy' is the other excuse people seem to be using. Railroading is not (and never should be) a popularity contest. Do your job safely and and go home, do it again tomorrow....but making excuses for this kind of disaster is pound foolish.
Click to expand...

I have a friend who's worked for CSX for years, as a conductor but now in management. He could have been an engineer but didn't want that position because of the likelihood of hitting pedestrians or vehicles that should not be on the tracks. Engineers can lose their jobs if they run over the speed limit even a few miles per hour, and so they make every effort not to do so. They cannot speed to "make up time" and would not choose to do so.

It's been stated by the engineer's lawyer that he's never had any violations in his four years as an engineer. I find it highly unlikely he would have deliberately operated the train at such a huge excessive speed. Therefore, I don't find it unreasonable to acknowledge there could be other mitigating circumstances, either medical, mechanical, or whatever, as I stated in my previous post.

He could have had a temporary lapse of consciousness, or the throttle could have malfunctioned in some way. Or, he could have been confused about his location, which would not, of course, absolve him of responsibility for the accident. Or he could have been a reckless idiot, although I think that's highly unlikely. We need to wait for the facts and evidence and not make assumptions.

I haven't been on the forum in awhile, but I'm crescent2. I've got to find my password so I posted as a guest for now.

His lawyer has also stated that he had cooperated and supplied his cell phone and a blood sample, but cannot presently remember what led up to the crash. Let's wait and see. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt at this time and my heart goes out to him and to everyone else involved, especially those who lost loved ones.


----------



## niemi24s

Ryan said:


> No, he's saying there used to be two people up front all the time.


I stand corrected. But I did say I was only _fairly_ literate, didn't I?


----------



## Eric S

Two people in the cab isn't necessarily a fail-safe system either, though. I believe studies are inconclusive at best on this matter, with some showing a benefit and others suggesting that two people can lead to one distracting the other. Plenty of trains are operated safely all over the world with only one person in the cab.

EDIT: This wasn't intended as a retort to any specific claim here, just an observation.


----------



## Ryan

Death toll now at 8, they found another body in the car. 

http://abc7chicago.com/news/8th-death-confirmed-in-philadelphia-amtrak-crash-derailment/722306/


----------



## Eric S

Given the condition of that first car, not surprising that another fatality occurred there. Hopefully the last though.


----------



## Ryan

Word all over FB (but no link yet) that Boardman announced limited service to resume Monday.


----------



## jis

Here you go:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_AMTRAK_CRASH_THE_LATEST

That contains the announcement about service resumption.


----------



## Ryan

Thanks.


----------



## Guestly

So 188 departed PHL at 9:10p, exactly on time. Hit Zoo interlocking at 9:12p, 1 minute early, and the last report, Shore Tower at 9:20p, 2 minutes early.

So it wasn't late out of PHL like some reports claimed. It was at maximum 5 minutes late at any point from WAS, so no need to "make up time."

Also, it's worth noting its quite normal for trains to be a minute or two early through interlockings due to pad time in the schedule.


----------



## Mary

Machines break. (Remember Toyota's accelerating mishaps).


----------



## amtrakwolverine

Eric S said:


> Two people in the cab isn't necessarily a fail-safe system either, though. I believe studies are inconclusive at best on this matter, with some showing a benefit and others suggesting that two people can lead to one distracting the other. Plenty of trains are operated safely all over the world with only one person in the cab.
> 
> EDIT: This wasn't intended as a retort to any specific claim here, just an observation.


The pere marquette had 2 people in the cab and it still rear ended a freight in Chicago.


----------



## Guest

Eric S said:


> Two people in the cab isn't necessarily a fail-safe system either, though. I believe studies are inconclusive at best on this matter, with some showing a benefit and others suggesting that two people can lead to one distracting the other. Plenty of trains are operated safely all over the world with only one person in the cab.
> 
> EDIT: This wasn't intended as a retort to any specific claim here, just an observation.


There were two people in the freight cab in the Maryland NEC crash, were there not?

Guest


----------



## Ryan

Yes, both of whom were high.


----------



## Guest-Thomas

Has anyone thought the stopped Septa and Acela in the area could have played a part just in distracting the engineer? Hearing radio reports of stopped trains, passing a stopped train (rare on the corridor) and possibly being on the look out for flying debris would possibly cause distractions.

Just thinking about possibilities.


----------



## MiRider

BrianPR3 said:


> im a member of another forum nyctf, and some members posted the image in the article of the engine and someone else noticed what they think looks to be bullet holes? are you seeing what looks like what they are too?
> 
> http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_Amtrak_Derailment__What_we_know.html


I see distinct points of impact from projectiles/bullets on the engine windshield in the link above.

If you look at this picture of the passenger window that was hit at about the same time, you'll see 3 distinct points of impact.

The window has circular damage patterns as seen when a bullet hits something.






We'll still haven't seen any pics of the damage to the windshield of the other engine that was hit.

I don't think these are unrelated incidents, I truly believe this is sabotage.

My theory:

Succession of projectiles (bullets) hit the windshield

Instinct is to duck - he ducks

Hits his head - he has 19 stitches on his head

He's momentarily unconscious and loses control

Comes to after the accident

I know that if someone shot multiple times at my windshield, I would naturally and instinctively duck.

I also doubt that I would be able to control my vehicle.

Unless those bullets/projectiles actually penetrated the window and they probably didn't, they are going to be somewhere outside.

From the Slate story about the passenger window: The conductor soon returned with a man who appeared to be a maintenance worker. He examined the glass and noted that the impact didn't break "the second layer."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/13/septa_projectile_two_philly_trains_suffered_window_damage_around_the_same.html


----------



## quadrock

The video at www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZy8W_DTag4 shows a cabview of the area where this accident took place. Skip to 29:19 for a view of the curve.


----------



## afigg

Turns out there is someone (outside Amtrak) who records all the data from Amtrak Track a Train. Washington Post Wonkblog: Map: Where and how Amtrak train 188 diverged from every other train traveling the same route. The #188 speed reports are shown in the red circles on the data map. The Track a Train reports are only roughly every 5 minutes, but #188 was a normal 58 mph approaching the curve NE of the North Philly station.

Follow the link to the Mapbox website. Shows the speed reports of all the NE Regional trains on the NEC and into Virginia. Cool.


----------



## CHamilton

Amtrak has posted information about alternative ways to get between PHL and NYP. http://ow.ly/MXs2z


----------



## Ryan

That's an amazing data visualization tool.


----------



## Guest

MiRider said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> im a member of another forum nyctf, and some members posted the image in the article of the engine and someone else noticed what they think looks to be bullet holes? are you seeing what looks like what they are too?
> 
> http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20150514_Amtrak_Derailment__What_we_know.html
> 
> 
> 
> I see distinct points of impact from projectiles/bullets on the engine windshield in the link above.
Click to expand...

There is damage to the "A pillar" next to the window that almost certainly occurred after the train derailed, what ever was hit may have damaged the window as well. The damage to the "A pillar" may have also warped the window frame enough to crack the glass.

Of course the window may have also suffered an impact prior to the derailment, I'm sure the NTSB will be thoroughly investigating.


----------



## SarahZ

I'm waiting for the investigation results. Those same circular patterns appear when rocks/debris hit a windshield. I used to see those in car accident photos when trying to determine if newly-discovered windshield/window damage was related to the collision claim.

(MiRider: I know you said bullets/debris with that all-important slash. I'm addressing the pure "bullet theory" crowd.)


----------



## niemi24s

My Sons boarded 92(13) in Orlando for Boston last night and this is part of an email I just received from them:

"We got an update from Amtrak telling us they cancelled the D.C. to Boston portion of our trip and that we would need to make other arrangements ourselves. We talked to multiple agents in Orlando. First they didn't have any info then later said they'd 'take care of us no matter what'. An hour before departure we got an email saying that our trip portion after DC "has been cancelled due to service disruption and there is no alternate service available." We talked to them at the station after that and they were unhelpful. We booked a Greyhound bus to NYC last night and will try to book a train from there to Boston ASAP. At least we'll get to see some of NYC now."

Will post any additional info I may get from them.


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> Turns out there is someone (outside Amtrak) who records all the data from Amtrak Track a Train. Washington Post Wonkblog: Map: Where and how Amtrak train 188 diverged from every other train traveling the same route. The #188 speed reports are shown in the red circles on the data map. The Track a Train reports are only roughly every 5 minutes, but #188 was a normal 58 mph approaching the curve NE of the North Philly station.
> 
> Follow the link to the Mapbox website. Shows the speed reports of all the NE Regional trains on the NEC and into Virginia. Cool.


Yup great visualization tool!
Considering the point from which the acceleration to 106mph started it seems likely that this was a case of loss of situational awareness which led to the previous curve to be mistaken for the curve after the Frankford curve. But we will have to wait for the NTSB to give its finding to know for sure.


----------



## jis

niemi24s said:


> My Sons boarded 92(13) in Orlando for Boston last night and this is part of an email I just received from them:
> 
> "We got an update from Amtrak telling us they cancelled the D.C. to Boston portion of our trip and that we would need to make other arrangements ourselves. We talked to multiple agents in Orlando. First they didn't have any info then later said they'd 'take care of us no matter what'. An hour before departure we got an email saying that our trip portion after DC "has been cancelled due to service disruption and there is no alternate service available." We talked to them at the station after that and they were unhelpful. We booked a Greyhound bus to NYC last night and will try to book a train from there to Boston ASAP. At least we'll get to see some of NYC now."
> 
> Will post any additional info I may get from them.


All that I can say is that United Airlines usually treats me better than this when they cancel a flight due to their own equipment problems. I had imagined that at least the LD passengers would not be left to fend for themselves. But I guess being disappointed is par for the course.


----------



## Guest

Amtrak is horrible during service disruptions (of any kind/magnitude). They don't even process credits automatically and throw up their hands at providing alternate arrangements.


----------



## caravanman

A view from overseas... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32744404

Ed.


----------



## Paulus

NTSB: 43 seconds before end of recording, train speed exceeded 80 mph, 16 seconds before end of recording it was 100mph


----------



## cello

This is beginning to sound like what happened in Spain not too long ago.


----------



## jis

Loss of situational awareness mistaking one curve for another?


----------



## Rover

Has data been released yet as to what car(s) the fatalities were recovered from?


----------



## Guest

> At a news briefing, Police Chief Inspector Joe Sullivan said his department was working with Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams on an investigation.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/14/us-usa-train-derailment-idUSKBN0NZ18Z20150514

This kind of ridiculousness is exactly why train crew are instructed to never talk to local police. What makes the PPD think that they are better qualified to investigate this incident than the Amtrak Police Department or the FBI? Or even that they have the jurisdiction to do so?


----------



## Andrew Ziolo

Question for the engineer experts... The Gulf curve Little Falls accident of 1940 New York Central Lake Shore Limited involved a 45 mph rated curve taken at 59mph with brakes applied and throttle backed off entering the curve. There was some speculation that had the engineer throttled through the curve and not applied the breaks, the derailment might have been avoided.

Despite the significantly higher excessive speed, is it possible the derailment could have been less violent had the engineer maintained throttle through the curve at Philadelphia?


----------



## jis

Guest said:


> At a news briefing, Police Chief Inspector Joe Sullivan said his department was working with Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams on an investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/14/us-usa-train-derailment-idUSKBN0NZ18Z20150514
> 
> This kind of ridiculousness is exactly why train crew are instructed to never talk to local police. What makes the PPD think that they are better qualified to investigate this incident than the Amtrak Police Department or the FBI? Or even that they have the jurisdiction to do so?
Click to expand...

Why of course taking care of those endless criminals throwing stuff at trains is so boring! Why bother with your primary responsibility when you can poke your nose somewhere where it probably does not belong and show some brotherly love?


----------



## Rover

Paulus said:


> NTSB: 43 seconds before end of recording, train speed exceeded 80 mph, 16 seconds before end of recording it was 100mph


http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-amtrak-train-derail-20150514-story.html#page=1

Sumwalt said the train was traveling above 70 mph 65 seconds before impact. At 43 seconds before impact it exceeded 80 mph. At 31 seconds it had increased to 90 mph. Sixteen seconds before impact it topped 100.

The speed limit before the curve is 80 mph but drops down to 50 going into the turn.

Sumwalt: Moments before derailing, train was placed into “engineer induced braking,” with full brake application. https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/598598196898725888

Just before entering the curve, the sound of the engineer applying the emergency brake is heard. https://twitter.com/NTSB/status/598969077051293696


----------



## saxman

The plot thickens. The NTSB says that the train accelerated from 70 to 100 mph within seconds not long before the accident.


----------



## Ziv

I don't mean to be flippant but the ACS-64 can accelerate like a... Sprinter.

From loafing along at 58 mph then up to 80 mph at 43 seconds before the corner and 106 mph 3 seconds before they hit the corner. I know cars that struggle to go from 80 to 106 in 23 seconds.


----------



## cello

Judging from the occupations of many of the deceased, it seems likely they were in BC, which would be where in the consist... Yep... The most mangled one.


----------



## Guest

Rover said:


> Has data been released yet as to what car(s) the fatalities were recovered from?


I speculate that most were riding in car 1 and the others in 2 and 3. Does that make sense?


----------



## niemi24s

Ziv said:


> . . . 80 mph at 43 seconds before the corner and 106 mph 3 seconds before they hit the corner.


To put these figures into perspective (assuming uniform acceleration during that 40 second interval)), the train accelerated at a rate of 0.95ft/sec² or 0.03g (where g = the acceleration due to gravity = 32.2ft/sec²). In comparison, if an automobile accelerates from 0 to 60mph in ten seconds, its acceleration is 8.8ft/sec² or 0.27g. - about 9X that of the train.


----------



## CHamilton

A MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT AND CEO JOE BOARDMAN ON TRAIN 188


----------



## Ziv

My point was that I always thought of trains as being pokey, and since most autos (definitely not all) tend to accelerate from 80 to 100 mph in a rather leisurely manner, I just assumed that a locomotive would have trouble getting 7 passenger cars to accelerate from 80 to 106 that quickly. I knew logically that the ACS-64 was designed to do this, but this really put the numbers in perspective. It is one thing to have a decent 0-60 time, it is entirely another to be accelerating like this from 80 to 100 mph.

On edit: Which gets me to thinking about a Top Gear for trains episode with three or four Stigs, one from France, Japan, Spain and maybe German, or better yet, with the young turk Stig from China taking on all the old fogie Stigs.

And then Elon sends his Stig to the track... Hyper Loop, FTW!



niemi24s said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . . 80 mph at 43 seconds before the corner and 106 mph 3 seconds before they hit the corner.
> 
> 
> 
> To put these figures into perspective (assuming uniform acceleration during that 40 second interval)), the train accelerated at a rate of 0.95ft/sec² or 0.03g (where g = the acceleration due to gravity = 32.2ft/sec²). In comparison, if an automobile accelerates from 0 to 60mph in ten seconds, its acceleration is 8.8ft/sec² or 0.27g. - about 9X that of the train.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rover

Guest said:


> Rover said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has data been released yet as to what car(s) the fatalities were recovered from?
> 
> 
> 
> I speculate that most were riding in car 1 and the others in 2 and 3. Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

So, were all in the BC car killed?


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Rover said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rover said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has data been released yet as to what car(s) the fatalities were recovered from?
> 
> 
> 
> I speculate that most were riding in car 1 and the others in 2 and 3. Does that make sense?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, were all in the BC car killed?
Click to expand...

No, amongst the survivors of the BC car was former congressman Patrick Murphy.


----------



## Ryan

I thought I read somewhere that he was back in the cafe car when it happened.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Ryan said:


> I thought I read somewhere that he was back in the cafe car when it happened.


You're right, he was sitting at a table in the cafe.


----------



## tim49424

Ryan said:


> I thought I read somewhere that he was back in the cafe car when it happened.


I saw him interviewed on MSNBC after he was off the train and indeed he was in the cafe car when it happened.


----------



## Triley

cpamtfan said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of theories and no conclusive evidence yet except for the 106 MPH speed of the train. With all of the fail safe measures on an Amtrak locomotive (especially a new one like the one in the crash) everything points to human error. What is surprising is that there are two people in an Amtrak locomotive cab and both apparently didn't notice that the train was going unusually fast heading into an area with a known curve? The engineer is not saying anything so the NTSB needs to question the conductor (they probably already have) but with two black box recorders and a video system, they know exactly what happened.
> 
> 
> 
> There's..only one person in the cab. The engineer. There should never ever be two people in the cab, unless one is a trainee, or someone qualifying on the route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Never is not necessarily the right wording. Railroads used to require two people upfront, and if in a curcumstance where the engineer might become unconscious or unable to control the train, there is someone who could more or less have the ability to stop the train.
Click to expand...

I was referring to Amtrak rules, not other railroads.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

We have now heard from the NTSB the train was actually speeding up as it approached the curve; since the ACS-64 is such a new Locomotive, I will be interested to find out if the Engineer was momentarily confused by the controls. This has happened from time to time on newly introduced airliner models, such as the Electra, and resulted in some serious crashes.


----------



## gmushial

Wonder if PTC wouldn't reduce the chances of this happening?


----------



## Paulus

gmushial said:


> Wonder if PTC wouldn't reduce the chances of this happening?


It would have prevented it.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

gmushial said:


> Wonder if PTC wouldn't reduce the chances of this happening?


The NTSB has said that it would have prevented it from happening.


----------



## George K

saxman said:


> The plot thickens. The NTSB says that the train accelerated from 70 to 100 mph within seconds not long before the accident.


Any speculation as to why that would have happened? As I mentioned to my wife, any engineer knows that to exceed the speed limit is a quick path to a new career.


----------



## George K

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/us/amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-engineer-brandon-bostian.html?_r=1



> In posts on the website Trainorders.com — where train enthusiasts and employees congregate — a writer who used the handle bwb6df and signed many of his posts as “Brandon Bostian” routinely chided railroad companies for not doing more to prevent accidents, saying in one post that he found the specter of human error “frightening.”
> 
> That writer also used other identifying information matching what is known about Mr. Bostian.
> 
> The Trainorders.com webmaster said in an email on Thursday, “Our privacy policy prevents us from sharing the identity of any member of the web site.” On Wednesday, other members of the site identified the handle bwb6df as belonging to Mr. Bostian and to the driver of the Philadelphia train; the webmaster deleted those posts, but they were viewable in an Internet cache.
> 
> The posts criticized a lack of safeguards to protect against human error, pointing out how fatigue, bad communication and “cutting corners” could lead to accidents. When others voiced skepticism of new safety technology, or dismissed the idea that an experienced engineer could make a simple mistake, the writer was often quick to comment to the contrary. The writer also said, “I wish the railroads had been more proactive in adopting” safety technology.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

George K said:


> saxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The plot thickens. The NTSB says that the train accelerated from 70 to 100 mph within seconds not long before the accident.
> 
> 
> 
> Any speculation as to why that would have happened? As I mentioned to my wife, any engineer knows that to exceed the speed limit is a quick path to a new career.
Click to expand...


Operator would be #1.

Train Motor control failure would be #2.

I would be much happier if the operator got confused and start to speed up too early. The motor control failure would be a bad for the fleet.

However the black boxes should of recorded the inputs by the operator. So that information should be know by the NTSB at this time.

Of course if the track had PTC this accident would of never happen.

I know Amtrak had a policy of filling in the gaps before the dead line, but did ever give a statement of when it was going to be done. Or a statement it was done?

8 dead people would like to know when.


----------



## MichiganMom

As always. LIsten to the people doing the job.


----------



## MattW

Unless you wish to feel the desire to bite through steel, don't go read the City-Data forum's politics forum thread on the crash :angry2:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

NTSB: Philadelphia train cars being taken to Delaware
http://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/local/2015/05/14/safety-system-prevented-train-crash/27314687/


----------



## Guest

No real answers for true cause from all angles as of yet. Other cases seem more clear than this one.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> IDK about on the NEC, but train crews on the Wolverine call out the signals, speed changes, etc.
> 
> peter
> 
> 
> 
> No signals are called out on the NEC, since signal speed enforcement is already in place all over. There is nothing to be gained by calling out signals.
Click to expand...

Actually, there is something to be gained, at least the way CSX does it. It may not be obvious so I'll explain it. They call out "(signal indication) AT (location)". It's a way of maintaining situational awareness regarding the location of the train. I actually have overhead (on the scanner) an engineer calling the wrong location, getting the location corrected by the conductor, following which the engineer called out the signal again with the correct location. This is a real benefit; call it an "anti-hypnosis" system, if you will. Being a solo engineer in a train and not talking to anyone for long periods is a good way to end up in a "road hypnosis" state.
Radio chatter which seems to have no function may actually have the function of keeping the engineer's mind focused.


----------



## jis

There is something to be said for that. The problem on NEC may be too many calls confusing everyone.

With technology available today putting a simple moving map on a display at the Engineer's seat may not be that expensive and will address this problem.


----------



## John Bobinyec

Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?

jb


----------



## who_is_easily_confused

saxman said:


> The plot thickens. The NTSB says that the train accelerated from 70 to 100 mph within seconds not long before the accident.


Now this confuses me. I thought earlier they said that the engineer had applied the brakes (the emergency brakes?) not long before the accident. Is that now not true?


----------



## Ryan

No, that's still true. Acceleration started about a minute before the crash, the emergency brakes were applied seconds before the crash.


----------



## jis

I would just draw people's attention to the observed fact that the acceleration started soon after the train exited the previous curve and leave it at that.

BTW as has been reported by AP quoting Amtrak, PTC will be fully operations on all segments of the NEC including where the accident happened, by the beginning of 2016. The FRA mandate requires that and it is scheduled to be met.


----------



## benjibear

jis said:


> I would just draw people's attention to the observed fact that the acceleration started soon after the train exited the previous curve and leave it at that.
> 
> BTW as has been reported by AP quoting Amtrak, PTC will be fully operations on all segments of the NEC including where the accident happened, by the beginning of 2016. The FRA mandate requires that and it is scheduled to be met.


The media is really hammering Amtrak for not having this done sooner and blaming Amtrak for this accident.


----------



## PRR 60

The Wall Street Journal picked up on the fact that speed enforcement could have been imposed on this curve without PTC by a simple "tweak" of the existing system. I have a feeling that Amtrak is going to get some of the Metro North love from the NTSB.

Wall Street Journal

Google

_Amtrak Crash Might Have Been Avoided by Tweak to Signal System_

to attempt to bypass paywall.


----------



## dlagrua

All of the reports that we are getting are very confusing. Here we have an experienced Amtrak engineer that has run the route for years ( perhaps 100's of times) accelerating the train to 106 mph prior to a curve that he must have known was ahead. If he passed out the "dead man" control would have stopped the train so he had to be awake. . Does anyone else find this strange???

It was also pointed out in another post that Amtrak locomotives only have an engineer in the cab? I find using a one man engine crew very strange as freight railroads have at least two and often three people riding in the cab; the engineer, conductor and sometimes a brakeman.


----------



## Guest

From this morning's news...



> Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone


I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.


----------



## Bierboy

Guest said:


> From this morning's news...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.
Click to expand...

The warrant is for his cell phone RECORDS.


----------



## PRR 60

Bierboy said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> From this morning's news...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The warrant is for his cell phone RECORDS.
Click to expand...

From the carrier. SOP.


----------



## Spin_news

benjibear said:


> The media is really hammering Amtrak for not having this done sooner and blaming Amtrak for this accident.


And adding that how Congress lavishes Amtrak with an overly rich budget so that Amtrak has more than enough cash-on-hand to make any and all upgrades.


----------



## tp49

PRR 60 said:


> Bierboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> From this morning's news...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philadelphia police have a warrant for his cell phone
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the engineer voluntarily handed his cell phone over to the investigators shortly after the crash? If the police now have a warrant, that seems to be mostly for an overly dramatic effect on their part.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The warrant is for his cell phone RECORDS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From the carrier. SOP.
Click to expand...

Yep , a subpoena (not a warrant) for the cellphone records is SOP in cases like this and nothing out of the ordinary.


----------



## jis

If the report about the Engineer opening his bag pulling out his phone, powering it up and calling 911 after he regained consciousness after the crash is true, then the cell phone call record over that period should be pretty blank. It would be interesting to learn what they find.

Personally it seems to me that the Philly Mayor and his Police Force seem to have developed preconceived notions about who is at fault. The mayor almost said so much when he talked about "reckless" etc. I think it is time for them to calm down and perhaps recuse themselves from the proceeding due to clearly demonstrated prejudice.

Given the currently known facts it appears there are two possible theories that fit the facts:

(i) Some sort of electronic or mechanical issue with the engine

(ii) Loss of situational awareness on part of the engineer.

NTSB has to clearly eliminate all but one based on the evidence available to them before any definitive statement can be made about what happened.


----------



## KmH

John Bobinyec said:


> Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?
> 
> jb


ACS-64 Engineer controls


----------



## Ryan

He doesn't seem to know what "literally" means, at a minimum. 



> “I don’t know what was going on with him,” Mayor Michael A. Nutter of Philadelphia told CNN on Wednesday. “But there’s really no excuse that can be offered, literally, unless he had a heart attack.”


I joke about word choice, but you can't honestly say "no excuse" and then immediately offer one and expect to be taken seriously.


----------



## VentureForth

Spin_news said:


> benjibear said:
> 
> 
> 
> The media is really hammering Amtrak for not having this done sooner and blaming Amtrak for this accident.
> 
> 
> 
> And adding that how Congress lavishes Amtrak with an overly rich budget so that Amtrak has more than enough cash-on-hand to make any and all upgrades.
Click to expand...

I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.

So says one reporter.

I don't buy the situational awareness hypothesis about him thinking he already rounded that curve. The first sharp curve out of Philly is a RIGHT hand curve that then goes over the Schuylkill river. The next curve is also a RIGHT hand curve, albeit much less tight. That then, goes into Frankford curve that is the sharp LEFT had curve. I don't see how you could think you're coming out of the wrong curve.



Ryan said:


> He doesn't seem to know what "literally" means, at a minimum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “I don’t know what was going on with him,” Mayor Michael A. Nutter of Philadelphia told CNN on Wednesday. “But there’s really no excuse that can be offered, literally, unless he had a heart attack.”
> 
> 
> 
> I joke about word choice, but you can't honestly say "no excuse" and then immediately offer one and expect to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...

It took me a moment, thinking that "literally" identified a real heart attack. But after reading your comment and rereading his, I see now how he said that only a heart attack could ever possibly be the reason he did this.

So I guess a mechanical failure couldn't be taken literally.


----------



## John Bobinyec

KmH said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 Engineer controls
Click to expand...

You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.

jb


----------



## jis

We will know for sure when NTSB figures out what inputs were entered in the throttle from where when, won't we? Hypotheses are just that, to be tested and validated or rejected. Of course there will have to be human factors study to go along with it to eliminate the possibility that any inputs were made with full knowledge of upcoming sharp curve or not. In short there is quite a bit of analysis yet to take place before it can be accepted or rejected out of hand.

The only way to validate this one is to know exactly what throttle inputs were made by the Engineer when. I am sure NTSB has that info. I have not seen that published anywhere yet.

What the reporter says is very likely quite true since it is Boardman that s/he is paraphrasing. Obtaining radio spectrum for the critical digital radio link has been quite a struggle for all that have been trying to install PTC all across the country, not just Amtrak. In addition out west they have had a problem getting permission to build radio towers from the Department of the Interior delaying things quite a bit too. Apparently a certified Native expert has to be on hand while the foundation is dug to certify that no historical artifacts are disturbed, and apparently such experts are in extreme short supply or something quite interesting like that.


----------



## crescent2

From reports I've read, Mayor Nutter seems to have attempted to soften his earlier remarks somewhat. The Camp David coverage knocked the accident coverage off for a good while yesterday afternoon, so I didn't see the video of the mayor's statements.

Does anyone have a link to a video of yesterday's NTSB briefing?


----------



## jis

Google is your friend. NTSB does:

https://www.youtube.com/user/NTSBgov


----------



## jis

John Bobinyec said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 Engineer controls
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.
> 
> jb
Click to expand...








Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.
> 
> So says one reporter.


Typical reporter not understanding what they're talking about.

The RF stuff doesn't have anything to do with the NEC, the freight RRs are using an RF based system. That's where the towers and Native American stuff comes in.

Actually related to this, ACSES is not installed along this stretch of track. It's true that the locomotive was equipped with the proper equipment, because it has been installed over much of the NEC, and all locomotives are required to have it operating before they depart. But without the wayside equipment being installed, the gear on the locomotive can't do anything.

Back on the reporter not understanding bit, it's truly depressing to think about the fact that their complete lack of understanding almost certainly isn't confined to just railroading. If they're that wrong about about everything they report on, can you believe much of anything they say?


----------



## John Bobinyec

jis said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 Engineer controls
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.
> 
> jb
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?
Click to expand...

Looks like another electronic component to me. I'm talking about a manual air valve - WHOOSH!

jb


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?


The news last night actually did a short piece on how locomotive controls work and said that red button was the alerter that they had to push several times a minute to let the locomotive know that they were still responsive.

So yes, that's probably the e-stop. h34r:


----------



## Oldsmoboi

From the situational awareness angle, wouldn't a simple GPS map display of the planned route be sufficient?


----------



## VentureForth

That's been brought up and it seems like a simple addition to their multi-function displays.


----------



## PRR 60

John Bobinyec said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 Engineer controls
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.
> 
> jb
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looks like another electronic component to me. I'm talking about a manual air valve - WHOOSH!
> 
> jb
Click to expand...

That large red button is the emergency stop. Push it, the train goes immediately into emergency.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?
> 
> 
> 
> The news last night actually did a short piece on how locomotive controls work and said that red button was the alerter that they had to push several times a minute to let the locomotive know that they were still responsive.
> 
> So yes, that's probably the e-stop. h34r:
Click to expand...

Ah OK, I thought the little red button is the alerter and the large mushroom is the emergency stop. But admittedly I dunno for sure.


----------



## Ryan

I'd believe Bill over the TV news.


----------



## tp49

I thought the alerter is on the floor on these


----------



## Oldsmoboi

So here's another question: Is 70mph - 106mph in 49 seconds just about max acceleration in an ACS-64 with a loaded train?


----------



## John Bobinyec

Still looking for a manual air valve. Electronics and computers are appropriate for normal operations, but when the electronics fails, the train must still be stopped quickly. Only a manual release of the brake pipe air pressure will do that. I suppose the valve is simply out of view.

jb


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.
> 
> So says one reporter.
> 
> 
> 
> Typical reporter not understanding what they're talking about.
> 
> The RF stuff doesn't have anything to do with the NEC, the freight RRs are using an RF based system. That's where the towers and Native American stuff comes in.
Click to expand...

This is incorrect. ACSES II also requires a radio link. Time to get self educated. Take a look at:

http://www.tsd.org/papers/ACSEScbtc.ppt

It looks like the radio link in Cab Signaled territory with installed transponders is mainly for TSR enforcement. My understanding is that PSRs are done primarily through transponders, though they could be done via the radio link too, specially where there are multiple curves in close proximity with different speed limits. But again, I am no expert and could be wrong. The radio is also used for some additional home signal release functions to allow the train to pass a failed home signal under dispatcher control and such.


----------



## crescent2

jis said:


> Google is your friend. NTSB does:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/NTSBgov


Thanks, jis. I had googled it earlier, but the only link that came up then was no longer active. (I can't survive any more without google. LOL)



Ryan said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read today that PTC was installed but not activated. Amtrak has been given all the money. It's been used. It's been installed. It was not switched on because there were some radio frequency issues they were working out.
> 
> So says one reporter.
> 
> 
> 
> Typical reporter not understanding what they're talking about.
> 
> The RF stuff doesn't have anything to do with the NEC, the freight RRs are using an RF based system. That's where the towers and Native American stuff comes in.
> 
> Actually related to this, ACSES is not installed along this stretch of track. It's true that the locomotive was equipped with the proper equipment, because it has been installed over much of the NEC, and all locomotives are required to have it operating before they depart. But without the wayside equipment being installed, the gear on the locomotive can't do anything.
> 
> *Back on the reporter not understanding bit, it's truly depressing to think about the fact that their complete lack of understanding almost certainly isn't confined to just railroading. If they're that wrong about about everything they report on, can you believe much of anything they say?*
Click to expand...

Ryan, imo NO, we can't.  I rarely even watch the televised news any more, except for this recent accident. Pitiful.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PRR 60 said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a close-up picture of the engineer's controls on these new engines?
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> ACS-64 Engineer controls
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You can't see everything, of course, but there doesn't appear to be a manual air (brake) valve. The normal acceleration and braking controls would all be computer controlled. There should be an emergency air valve somewhere.
> 
> jb
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that red mushroom to the right of Biden's left hand the emergency stop thing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looks like another electronic component to me. I'm talking about a manual air valve - WHOOSH!
> 
> jb
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That large red button is the emergency stop. Push it, the train goes immediately into emergency.
Click to expand...

Jis: The little red button between the black toggle switch and the black push button that is even with the panel and to the right of VP Biden's left hand is the pantograph down button. The red mushroom button is indeed the alertor.

if you're interested in placing the train into emergency, the automatic brake valve (the long red handle next to VP Biden's right hand) is pushed all the way forward. There is an additional mushroom push button that is out of view on the fireman's side.



tp49 said:


> I thought the alerter is on the floor on these


There is an additional foot pedal that acknowledges the alertor and cab signals changes.

PS: This is just a casual comment that has nothing to do with any sort of incident. I'm am responding to a general question in a general manner. No specific responses to any specific incidents are addressed or implied.

PPS: To all that reached out to me through texts, email, PMs and phone calls: Thank you.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail, Thanks much!

So to apply emergency brakes you use the brake handle pushing it full forward.

What does the mushroom button on Fireman's position do?

Thanks again.


----------



## Guest

Thirdrail7 said:


> There is an additional mushroom push button that is out of view on the fireman's side.


Fireman's side? So, it is designed for a second person to be in the cab, and have a purpose being there?


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Thirdrail, Thanks much!
> 
> So can the emergency you use the brake handle pushing it full forward.
> 
> What does the mushroom button on Fireman's position do?
> 
> Thanks again.



Sorry. That is to put the train in emergency.



Guest said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is an additional mushroom push button that is out of view on the fireman's side.
> 
> 
> 
> Fireman's side? So, it is designed for a second person to be in the cab, and have a purpose being there?
Click to expand...

Yes. Let's say there are two people in the engine for some reason. The person on the fireman's side can place the train in emergency if the need arises.


----------



## Guest

Does this help?


----------



## Guest




----------



## Guest

Sorry, I should have posted this version instead, much higher resolution, you can almost read all the labels.

[img=[URL="http://blog.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/INR_DSC_2529.jpg"]http://blog.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/INR_DSC_2529.jpg[/URL]


----------



## Grandpa D

OK. The Alerter button has to be pushed "several times a minute". What happens if the engineer (or assistant engineer) fails to push the button sufficiently? Automatic emergency stop?


----------



## Bierboy

Interactive graphic of some of the cab controls -- http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Inside_the_cab_of_Train_188.html


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> This is incorrect. ACSES II also requires a radio link. Time to get self educated. Take a look at:
> 
> http://www.tsd.org/papers/ACSEScbtc.ppt


Crap, just when I think I understand this stuff. Thanks for the correction and the powerpoint, that was very enlightening.

I'm going to go look for a job in the media somewhere, looks like I'll be perfect for the job.


----------



## jis

Ryan, you were correct about ACSES I. The Radio Link based enhancements came in ACSES II. Further enhancements allows deployment of the system even to implement ETMS as used for freight PTC in the US, and even in conjunction with regular ACSES II.

I understand there are two segments on the NEC where this will be the case, i.e. there will be parallel implementation of both ACSES II and ETMS, the latter funded by a freight railroad and a commuter agency that wants it, as I understood it. That of course might have changed or I might have misunderstood.


----------



## VentureForth

This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?

And in the absence of PTC, was ACSES II active?

Why are there so many red buttons?


----------



## Ryan

I'm confused by what you're asking.

This post by Jishnu has lots of quality information:



jis said:


> I have been staying clear of these discussions so far because the wheat to chaff ratio was so overwhelmingly on the chaff side. but let me try to see if we can bring some semblance of groundedness to the discussion.
> 
> The primary signaling system in place at that location is the old PRR Coded Track Circuit based Cab Signaling system enhanced with a second carrier frequency and an additional pulse code (270) to allow for additional signal aspects for speeds above 45mph. I believe the speed aspects that were added are 60mph, 80mph, 100mph and 150mph. So all in all the only speed limits that can be signal enforced are 20, 30, 45, 60, 80, 100, 125, and 150.
> 
> This section of track has most of the ACSES related hardware installed but ACSES is not in service in that area possibly because the radio link part of ACSES is not in place there yet.
> 
> The speed limit on the curve is 50mph, which is not enforceable at that exact value using signal speed indication as you see from the list above.
> 
> At present I don't know what signal indication is given at Shore for an eastbound train. It is probably a Clear, which leaves it to the Engineer to obey speed limits as documented in the employee timetable.
> 
> If ACSES (Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System) were in service there would be a passive transponder in the track at Shore which would have the speed limit for the curve (its Civil Speed Limit) of 50mph and the start and stop mile reading for the limit, which the train would read as it passes over the transponder and self-enforce it even if the Engineer ignores it.
> 
> The present FRA decree is that ACSES must be in service in all segments where trains are allowed to operate at speeds over 125mph. Amtrak at present meets and exceeds that, in that it has ACSES in service on trackage beyond those mentioned in the decree. Starting 2016 it will be mandatory on all main line trackage, and Amtrak is well on its way to meet the deadline. At present all Amtrak equipment is equipped with ACSES and are not allowed to depart from an origin station with ACSES inoperative.
> 
> These are the facts (as best I know) of what protection systems are in place at that location.
> 
> Terms like ATC and PTC are pretty meaningless, except apparently for people who get impressed by confusing sounding acronyms. ATC is a especially fraught acronym, because it is applied to many different systems with varying capabilities. PTC as defined by FRA at least has a precise definition of required capabilities, but even there the actual implementation may vary quite a bit within parameters allowed by the regulation. You need to understand what the exact capabilities are to determine what could or could not have happened.
> 
> At present I don't have enough concrete information to go beyond this in terms of speculating what may or may not have happened, and am happy to wait for NTSB to complete its work.
> 
> In a post at another time in less emotionally charged environment, I will discuss what alternative means could be deployed within what is available to make it a little safer. However, everything costs money, so choices have to be made on prioritizing where the safety money is best spent for the maximum bang for the buck. So jsut because something can be done does not mean it is the thing to do in the bigger picture all the time.


Going back to your questions, assuming you are talking about ACSES when you ask "if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?", I would argue that this isn't the most dangerous section of the route. I'm also not sure what you mean by "get the bugs worked out" ACSES has been deployed for over 10 years, it's not a matter of working bugs out, it's a matter of spending the money to install the transponders.

Does that help?


----------



## Guest

VentureForth said:


> This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?


Seems Amtrak started from Boston, and is working its way south, getting as far as NYC so far. So, I guess Amtrak isn't installing it piecemeal, here-and-there. Plus, I am not sure we would all agree that this one curve is the most dangous section of the NER track, just last week.

From the report, Amtrak track with the system:



> Amtrak on 198 miles from Boston, Massachusetts, to New Haven, Connecticut; Amtrak on 75 miles of track from New Haven, Connecticut, to New York City;


----------



## jis

Amtrak installed ACSES in those parts that were mandated by FRA for the operation of Acelas at speeds higher than 125mph first. Then they installed it in the remaining portion of Boston to New Haven. And in between their also upgraded from ACSES I to

And finally they are working through the remainder of the section between New York and Washington DC.

The work has been done as funds became available with a completion deadline of the end of 2015 as required by the FRA.



VentureForth said:


> This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?


Of course it is not fully installed. Certain necessary hardware is in place, but the critical office segments are not in place. Installing ACSES (which is the final component to complete installation of PTC) is not just a matter of dropping a few transponders. There is a lot of additional equipment and software that has to be installed and tested.

And no one considers this to be the most dangerous place on the NEC. This is the first time there has been an overspeed incident here since the inception of the NEC.



> And in the absence of PTC, was ACSES II active?


This unfortunately shows a gross lack of understanding of what those terms stand for. ACSES II is the second phase of ACSES. ACSES II together with the Continuous Coded Track Circuit based Cab Signal system provides the PTC functionality on the NEC. PTC as defined by FRA lists a set of features and functionality that must be in place to claim PTC compliance. On the NEC CCTC and ACSES II together provide tha functionality. So no ACSES II was not available since if it were there would be PTC available.



> Why are there so many red buttons?


Seriously?


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha

One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute _"Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago."_ I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote _"You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."_


----------



## StriderGDM

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute _"Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago."_ I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote _"You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."_


Well thankfully private railroads never have accidents, right? Seriously, I wonder how he feels about Luc-Megantic or the Kanawha River derailment in West Virginia. Oh and in Canada, the private owner had a bare minimum of insurance and I believe has since declared bankruptcy and I know here in NYS, getting them to have insurance is a big issue.


----------



## chrsjrcj

Well not to spark a political debate, but I fail to see how privatizing Amtrak would've prevented the accident. The PTC mandate was a federal mandate, one that the PRIVATE freight railroads have been fighting because of the cost to install.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> This all begs the question - if PTC on the NEC has been fully funded and installed, why would what is arguably the most dangerous sections of the route be the last to get the bugs worked out rather than the first?


It's not at all clear to me which section of the route is the most dangerous! Maybe the most dangerous sections were, in fact, prioritized. Boston-New Haven, which does have PTC, is probably the most dangerous, really...


----------



## Oldsmoboi

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute _"Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago."_ I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote _"You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."_


Just like we pay people to fly or pay people to drive?


----------



## StriderGDM

Oldsmoboi said:


> From the situational awareness angle, wouldn't a simple GPS map display of the planned route be sufficient?


Not necessarily, and ironically could possibly make things worse.

For one thing, throwing MORE information at a person doesn't necessarily help.

In addition, you can get a situation that is sort of like the cliche cartoon of a person looking at a map and saying, "Well according to this map, we're on that mountain peak over there."

People's brains are funny and can use external data wrongly in order to confirm an already existing bias.

So, simply having a GPS map might help, or, assuming (and for purposes of this send I'm making this assumption, I don't know what actually happened) this is a case of situational bias and the engineer thought he was at the curve with the higher speed, he could have looked at the map, seen the curve and "confirmed" his belief he was at the other curve.

And keep in mind, the engineer already has a lot of data coming in, signals, speed indicator in the locomotive, the alerter tone, external visual cues, and more I'm sure I'm not aware of. The more you data you toss at them, the worse it can get.

And of course, we have no idea if it was a case of situational bias.


----------



## FormerOBS

NC Hi:

Your friend will also tell you that there were absolutely no passenger rail accidents before Amtrak (when passenger rail service was "privatized"), and the passenger trains back then ran at a profit. His understanding of the Unions' role displays an equal level of ignorance. Many (maybe most?) large private railroads are self-insured. Amtrak employees are Amtrak employees; not government employees. He's been listening to too many right wing ideologues. But we should probably stay on topic.

Tom


----------



## saxman

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute _"Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago."_ I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote _"You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."_


Tell him this. Private or not-private. The engineer would probably still belong to a union. Also, just about every transportation employee out there, private or not, belongs to a union.


----------



## jis

saxman said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of my friends actaully had to audicity to post this on facebook and I qoute _"Privatize Amtrak. That will make it more efficient, and do away with accidents like what happened a few days ago."_ I couldn't resist and tore him a new one. One of his responeses was and I quote _"You have a government employee running it that due to his union cannot be fired. You have government employees as his supervisors who also cannot be fired. Privatization would stream line Amtrak and make it profitable. Not only do we the people have to pay to keep Amtrak going regardless of the number of people using it.....but now you and I have to help pay millions in lawsuits. A private owner would have insurance."_
> 
> 
> 
> Tell him this. Private or not-private. The engineer would probably still belong to a union. Also, just about every transportation employee out there, private or not, belongs to a union.
Click to expand...

I suspect from his statements that he is way too disconnected from reality to comprehend such factual and logical statements. He is fixated in his own fantasy world and there he shall remain no matter what, and most sadly so, and make everyone else's life miserable around him. :help:


----------



## dlagrua

The first step toward privatization of the passenger railroads would be to have a railroad line willing to get into the business that Amtrak is in. The argument of who can do it better has no validity unless you have a basis for comparison. With the current political climate in Washington; I would venture to say that if a major corporation made a fair bid to buy Amtrak it would be sold to them in a heartbeat. Lets remember that Amtrak was created because the private railroads did not want to be in the passenger rail business. If you asked them today ( with select exceptions) you would probably get the same answer. The freight business has always been far more profitable, so would private industry want to acquire rail traffic that brings in far less revenue? IIRC at the peak of private passenger rail in the 1940's and 1950's, passenger service was only bringing in about a 2% net profit. By the 1960's they were losing millions.


----------



## Glenn

When your only source of news is FOX Cable news this is the kind of mindless drivel you will hear. People like this live in an echo chamber of Fox/Rush/Hannity. Facts don't matter to people who have a religious like belief in how "thinks should be done" regardless of what reality is.


----------



## BrianPR3

BREAKING: "NTSB asks FBI to join investigation into Amtrak 188 derailment; Conductor reports overhearing a conversation over the radio before accident in which engineer said he was struck, possibly by rock or worse." PER CBS NEW YORK facebook page. so my theory was right about the windows and the trains hit by bricks near by could connect


----------



## Guess Guest

Just to be fair (and balanced), that was the lead story on Fox News as well.


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## OlympianHiawatha

CNN just reported on posts the Engineer made to a "train enthusiast site;" I wonder if that was here?


----------



## George K

OlympianHiawatha said:


> CNN just reported on posts the Engineer made to a "train enthusiast site;" I wonder if that was here?


No, TrainOrders.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64182-amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-512/?p=600733


----------



## Guest

I still can't rule out sabotage on the Amtrak derailment and to date there has not been conclusive evidence given to support the true facts although there was a few known threats against trains at the same time and two trains were hit as we know and discussed on here.

The Mayor of Philadelphia is less than helpful by trying to pin the engineer as there are always vulnerabilities snd system defects that wouod need to be ruled out first and they have not been.

There has been no evidence portrayed of distractions as of yet like we saw in Metro North. In Metro North it was clear engineer was not doing his job. In this case evidence has yet to be substantiated. I realize we need Positive speed control and we are getting it which will help these issues even if it turns out to be sabotage or whatnot.

I have used Amtrak, seen terrorism, even someone was riding on top of a train car on the LIRR by where I live and familiar with the trains. Even remembered a glitch and a nice engineer on LIRR when the new cars were shaking and he was controlling the train and they had to fix some stability issues. The door was open where he was controlling the train and I partly saw the new computers that the new trainsets had installed.

I never met Brandon but I am going to give him benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise. Metro north was known to have severe operational deficiencies where a management shakeup occured. Amtrak under Boardman was doing a decent job considering the size and scope of the Amtrak network but considering size and scale Amtrak was in good shape going forward.


----------



## Rover

BrianPR3 said:


> BREAKING: "NTSB asks FBI to join investigation into Amtrak 188 derailment; Conductor reports overhearing a conversation over the radio before accident in which engineer said he was struck, possibly by rock or worse." PER CBS NEW YORK facebook page. so my theory was right about the windows and the trains hit by bricks near by could connect


But wait.... I thought DHS and other Govt. agencies had already been at the site.

I guess better Late, than Never, in the case of the FBI involvement!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Rover said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BREAKING: "NTSB asks FBI to join investigation into Amtrak 188 derailment; Conductor reports overhearing a conversation over the radio before accident in which engineer said he was struck, possibly by rock or worse." PER CBS NEW YORK facebook page. so my theory was right about the windows and the trains hit by bricks near by could connect
> 
> 
> 
> But wait.... I thought DHS and other Govt. agencies had already been at the site.
> 
> I guess better Late, than Never, in the case of the FBI involvement!
Click to expand...

Maybe they were initially concentrating on looking for sabotage on the rails, not someone shooting or throwing things at the train(s).


----------



## Guest

Bingo, conductor is now reporting something hit the train. Abcnews is now reporting this as well. I figured as much, unfortunately.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

George K said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> CNN just reported on posts the Engineer made to a "train enthusiast site;" I wonder if that was here?
> 
> 
> 
> No, TrainOrders.
> 
> http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64182-amtrak-derailment-philadelphia-512/?p=600733
Click to expand...

Thanks George-I haven't been able to keep up with all the Posts here as they come in.


----------



## Hytec

To those saying the private railroads got out of passenger trains solely because they were not profitable. Yes, that is true, but for far more complex reasons than as simply stated here. First, advances in air travel after WW-II sucked passengers away from railroads due to SPEED of travel. Second, advances in automobile technologies and development of the Interstate system sucked many more due to efficiency of PERSONAL travel. Thirdly, and the straw that broke the camel's (railroad's) back, was the cancellation of ALL mail contracts by the US Postal Service in 1967. The Postal contracts were the only revenue source that allowed private railroads to balance and offset the perennial losses from carrying passengers. The one positive aspect of carrying passengers that the railroad executives recognized was that passengers, mostly corporate executives, decision-making managers, and publically notable figures, enjoyed was the on-time performance and luxury service similar to that from a five-star hotel. It wasn't until passage of the Staggers Act in the early 1980s that railroads were deregulated and removed from the tightly-controlled choke-hold of their rates and tariffs by the Interstate Commerce Commission that had existed since the early 1900s. The Staggers Act allowed railroads to charge actual costs for transportation, rather that what Congress and the ICC thought was fair and appropriate, a pathetically laughable situation.


----------



## fairviewroad

But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.

Now, it's possible that the engineer was hit by a bullet and slumped over onto the throttle. [but wouldn't there be a bullet wound?] Or that the

engineer panicked and wanted to get his train out of harm's way. Etc. But even if it's proven that the train was hit by bullets or rocks, there is

still more to the story.


----------



## keelhauled

I think the other part of the privatization discussion is there seems to be a widespread assumption that the freight railroads would be the ones to take over Antrak. Which IMO is very unlikely, what seems more probable is the long distance network would almost entirely get canned immediately, with the possible exception of a cruise train here and there, maybe the Auto Train, if you're very optimistic maybe someone would try to take on the Florida trains/LSL. There would probably be various operators bidding on state contracts, much as commuter trains are run now. The NEC might get run wholly privately if the government assumes responsibility of maintaining the infrastructure. In any case I think any privatization scheme is going to lead to a complete fracturing of the network. Which kills connections and probably calls the viability of the whole thing into question.

But this is very far outside the scope of this thread so in the interest of contributing something I will note that it was actually the assistant conductor that reported hearing of impacts over the radio, the conductor is still hospitalized and has not given any statements as far as I know.


----------



## Ryan

fairviewroad said:


> But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.


It does if the throttle is bumped while the engineer is ducking, or was set to accelerate and not pulled back because the engineer is otherwise occupied trying to not get shot.


----------



## TheTuck

Unlike a car, you don't need to actively press anything to move the engine. You move the throttle and voila



fairviewroad said:


> But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.
> 
> Now, it's possible that the engineer was hit by a bullet and slumped over onto the throttle. [but wouldn't there be a bullet wound?] Or that the
> 
> engineer panicked and wanted to get his train out of harm's way. Etc. But even if it's proven that the train was hit by bullets or rocks, there is
> 
> still more to the story.


Unlike driving a car, the engineer doesn't need to actively continue pressing anything to move the engine. To use a bad pun, you set it and forget it. The legal speeds between North Philly and the derailment site are 60, 80, 65, 80, 50. We now know the engineer overheard the Septa engineer saying they were possibly shot at. Knowing this was directly ahead most certainly played into his psyche. If and when his windshield was hit, I'm sure his main concern became his own survival, and he definitely wasn't thinking about slowing down! I can't say I would've done any different. Unfortunately this could've distracted him long enough to forget about the 50 curve until he heard the frogs under him at Shore.


----------



## NW cannonball

Ryan said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> 
> But something hitting the train doesn't alone explain the rapid increase in speed. The alleged projectile would not cause the train to speed up.
> 
> 
> 
> It does if the throttle is bumped while the engineer is ducking, or was set to accelerate and not pulled back because the engineer is otherwise occupied trying to not get shot.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Or many other possible scenarios.

Some control cable damaged?

Good to see the NTSB called the FBI back for more analysis. If that's the sequence of it. Coulda been vice-versa - whatever.

I've read many NTSB reports, the NTSB do have a fine-tooth comb and a very thorough checklist, and LOTS of tech resources and I think the FBI has a LOT of resources (bless government agencies, sometimes)

The investiagetion might take a while.


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

The pictures of #601 look like the there are bullet holes in the windshield. At first I thought they were from gravel hitting it during the derailment but along with septa trains reporting being hit by projectiles and no mechanical problems it looks like a very plausible scenario.

Engineer has the train in full throttle, bullets, rocks, bricks whatever hits the windshield, he ducks, remembers the curve, puts the train in emergency but it's too late to get the speed under control..... makes perfect sense.


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

Oldsmoboi said:


> So here's another question: Is 70mph - 106mph in 49 seconds just about max acceleration in an ACS-64 with a loaded train?


49 Seconds is also a reasonable amount of time to duck while dodging projectiles, remember the curve up ahead, get back to the controls and put the train into emergency.


----------



## NW cannonball

How many people died in motor vehicle accidents since the start of this discussion?

How many pedestrians killed?

Rail and airplane safety is important. But where is the greater danger?

Some statistical perspecctive would be welcome here, if anyone has such.

Thanks


----------



## SarahZ

NW cannonball said:


> How many people died in motor vehicle accidents since the start of this discussion?


"On average in 2012, 92 people were killed on the roadways of the U.S. each day in 30,800 fatal crashes."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Here's another good (and more credible) link:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/NHTSA+Data+Confirms+Traffic+Fatalities+Increased+In+2012


----------



## FormerOBS

I don't know whether 49 seconds is enough time to react or not, and I don't know whether 49 is the correct number of seconds. From the breakage pattern on the windshield, I'm guessing that it was not broken by bullet(s). Bullets generally make a small, neat, discrete circular mark. I've seen them. These marks are larger and more irregular. I'm guessing it was a brick, rock, piece of concrete, piece of metal, or something of that kind. I'm also guessing that an impact that can break that windshield would be something like the sound of a shotgun being fired inside a telephone booth. This would be, at the very least, extremely disconcerting and distracting to a person who is trying to concentrate on his work. Was that distraction enough to scramble the engineer's priorities for 49 seconds? In the meantime, the train continued to accelerate. In that time, it is reported that he reported the attack over the radio. When he finally did hit the Emergency, he also blew the whistle. So he had some of his faculties at some point; but did he have all of his faculties at the right time?

Hopefully the investigation will eventually tell us whether the broken windshield was a factor in the first place, and what actually happened.

Tom


----------



## Rail Freak

Amtrak

A MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT AND CEO JOE BOARDMAN ON TRAIN 188

The derailment of Northeast Regional Train 188 was a terrible tragedy that we are responding to with every resource we have available. The National Transportation Safety Board is leading the investigation to determine the cause of the incident, and Amtrak is providing full cooperation.

With truly heavy hearts, we mourn those who died. Their loss leaves holes in the lives of their families and communities. On behalf of the entire Amtrak family, I offer our sincere sympathies and prayers for them and their loved ones. Amtrak takes full responsibility and deeply apologizes for our role in this tragic event.

We recognize that for everyone onboard the train, including those who suffered injuries, the healing process may be long. Within 24 hours of the incident, Amtrak set up a Family Assistance Center in Philadelphia to work closely with the family of passengers and crew on the train. We are also working with the individuals and families affected by this event to help them with transportation, lodging, and of course, medical bills and funeral expenses.

Amtrak is ever grateful to the City of Philadelphiaits first responders who bravely worked in difficult conditions, including the dark of night, to rescue and provide aid to hundreds; its hospital personnel who went into full alert as patients arrived at emergency rooms; its officials who quickly implemented a response plan; and its citizens who opened their doors to offer assistance.

Although our current focus is on the passengers and employees affected by this incident and the resulting service disruption along the Northeast Corridor, we must also take time to learn from this event. Passenger railroading is at its core about people; the safety of our passengers and employees was, is and always will be our number one priority. Our goal is to fully understand what happened and how we can prevent a similar tragedy from occurring in the future. We will also continue to focus on completing Positive Train Control implementation in the Northeast Corridor by December of 2015.

Thank you for your support of America's Railroad during this difficult time.

Sincerely,

Joe Boardman, President and Chief Executive Officer

Joe Boardman

President and Chief Executive Office


----------



## George K

FormerOBS said:


> In that time, it is reported that he reported the attack over the radio.


I hadn't read that. If so, it puts a very different perspective on things.


----------



## fillyjonk

I wonder if everyone who ever bought a ticket (and gave an e-mail address) got Boardman's letter.

I did - then again, I have an upcoming trip. (I was nervous when I saw A Message From Amtrak, I thought at first, oh, are they bustituting me?)


----------



## George K

From today's New York Times:






> At a news conference on Friday, Robert L. Sumwalt, the safety board official who is leading the investigation, said an assistant conductor had reported that she believed she heard a radio transmission in which an engineer on a regional line said his train had been struck by a projectile and *the engineer on the Amtrak train replied that his had been struck, too.*
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Sumwalt said that investigators had found a fist-size circular area of impact on the left side of the Amtrak train’s windshield and that they had asked the Federal Bureau of Investigation to analyze it. He said that the F.B.I. had been called in because it has the forensics expertise needed for the investigation, but that it had not yet begun its analysis.
> He said that investigators had also interviewed the engineer and found him “extremely cooperative,” and that the engineer had said he was not fatigued or ill at the time of the accident. But he could not remember anything about the derailment.


----------



## MrFSS

fillyjonk said:


> I wonder if everyone who ever bought a ticket (and gave an e-mail address) got Boardman's letter.
> 
> I did - then again, I have an upcoming trip. (I was nervous when I saw A Message From Amtrak, I thought at first, oh, are they bustituting me?)


I got the letter sent to my AGR email address.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I keep getting letters. The 1st one was about my trip that I'm taking today which I got on Thursday. Then I've been getting notifications about the NEC and then Boardman's letter and each time wonder if my modified Rez is canceled.


----------



## FormerOBS

To be clear, the Assistant Conductor reported that she heard Bostian mention this in a radio communication with another train. I do not mean to say he reported it to a dispatcher or other authority. I don't know that. My suggestion that Bostian's thoughts and priorities were confused ("scrambled" is the word I used) are pure conjecture.

Also, my comments about bullet damage should be put in context. Those I have seen, have been in the Lexan windows of passenger cars. I have never seen one that actually penetrated the Lexan. I don't know whether the material in this locomotive windshield is the same, or if it behaves the same.

Tom


----------



## willem

I received the letter at my AGR email address. Spouse, who has not registered an email address with AGR (but who has received etickets from Amtrak by email) did not receive the letter.


----------



## crescent2

Re Boardman's email: Isn't it far too soon for him to be accepting responsibility on Amtrak's behalf?

I know the public likes it when someone accepts responsibility, but the investigation is incomplete. There are possible (I'm not saying they happened) scenarios that would in no way be Amtrak's fault, such as manufacturing defects or sabotage and other criminal acts. Isn't this legally dangerous and also very foolish at this point?

I was surprised when I read that in a post the other day, and more surprised when I got the email statement.


----------



## DryCreek

Those images of the windshield struck my "flying objects" sure appear to be the results of low caliber rifle fire.

This site has some images of hardened glass being subjected to higher caliber rifle strikes. The window they used for their experiments does seem to be a bit thicker than the specialized glass for a locomotive can though. BTW, those guys at The Box O' Truth really know how to have fun! They have a lot of neat stuff on their site.


----------



## jis

crescent2 said:


> Re Boardman's email: Isn't it far too soon for him to be accepting responsibility on Amtrak's behalf?
> 
> I know the public likes it when someone accepts responsibility, but the investigation is incomplete. There are possible (I'm not saying they happened) scenarios that would in no way be Amtrak's fault, such as manufacturing defects or sabotage and other criminal acts. Isn't this legally dangerous and also very foolish at this point?
> 
> I was surprised when I read that in a post the other day, and more surprised when I got the email statement.


He may feel that there is still some residual responsibility that Amtrak has for having decided not to use the Signal Speed Control mechanism to regulate the speed on the curve or some such, irrespective of what else happened. I don;t know that to be the case for sure since I am not good at remote mind reading. But it is is just a possibility that comes to mind. The exact level of allocated responsibility will come out of the investigations and is unlikely to create a different result due to what Mr. Boardman or anyone else says as a general statement. Also, the way the insurance things work for these Amtrak has to be the primary insurer. It may be able to collect some from someone else, but that does not remove its responsibility to its customers. I am sure anyone that knows otherwise will correct me almost before I have hit "post" on this one.


----------



## jis

For those interested in hearing it from the proverbial horse's mouth, you can see the third presser from NTSB in its entirety here:




There are several pieces of information that caught my attention that I list below in no particular order:

1. Assistant Conductor 1 stated that she heard the Engineer mention in response to a radio transmission from the SEPTA train that was hit by something that he believed his engine was hit by something too.

2. In response to that NTSB has called in the FBI to investigate a specific piece of damage to the windshield on #601.

3. The specific damage being investigated is on the lower portion of the windshield on the fireman's side. (this from an answer to a specific question asked of Mr. Sumwalt)

4. They have not yet analyzed the black box back in time to the point where the acceleration began to know for sure that it was caused by human input or not. That is yet to be done. He mentioned that there are two possibilities for the acceleration (a) caused by human input (b) caused by mechanical malfunction. He also mentioned thhat unlike in airplanes, trains do not have auto throttle of that sort. (This left me wondering how the cruise control mode is set on trains and how that works).

5. Mr. Sumwalt said that FRA has committed to act on the recommendation from NTSB that came from the Chatswoth investigation for installation of inward facing video recorders in the cab, which is not part of the regulation yet.

6. The Engineer has no recollection of anything after he rang the bell for North Philadelphia, including the reported covnersation about a projectile strike.

7. NTSB is doing toxicology test covering a much broader group of drugs than the 5 required by the DOT. The toxicology work for NTSB is being conducted by FAA in their Oklahoma City facility and the results are not known yet.

8. Anyone that knows anything first hand that has relevance to the investigation is requested to please get in touch by sending email to [email protected]

TAFN

Now a personal opinion: Having heard all this, it seems to me that Hizzoner the Mayor of Philadelphia would be more useful if he deployed his Police Department to figure out and investigate what the heck was going on in North Philadelphia along the railroad tracks than fiddling around trying to investigate the Engineer, an area in which his PD has less than zero expertise. Maybe concentrating on stuff that is their primary responsibility and falls within their area of expertise would be more prudent and useful.


----------



## the_traveler

MrFSS said:


> fillyjonk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if everyone who ever bought a ticket (and gave an e-mail address) got Boardman's letter.
> 
> I did - then again, I have an upcoming trip. (I was nervous when I saw A Message From Amtrak, I thought at first, oh, are they bustituting me?)
> 
> 
> 
> I got the letter sent to my AGR email address.
Click to expand...




willem said:


> I received the letter at my AGR email address. Spouse, who has not registered an email address with AGR (but who has received etickets from Amtrak by email) did not receive the letter.


At first, I was going to say I didn't receive it. But then I looked closer at my email - and found it.
It was an email notification for my *TWITTER* account as to where it was! You then had to click the link in the Twitter post to read it.

So it was not everyone who provided an email to Amtrak. Instead, it was everyone who has a Twitter account *AND* follows Amtrak!


----------



## CCC1007

I don't have Twitter and still got it

It probably was sent out to every email address they have as well as put on Twitter and Facebook


----------



## tp49

I received the email at the address I have registered with AGR. I do not have a twitter account (nor do I want one) so who knows how they figured what addresses to send it too.


----------



## jis

Mine was to the email address associated with the amtrak.com account, and not to the twitter account in any form. You see, cleverly I use different email addresses, all of which go to the same place, but I can tell which email address it was sent to.  That of course does not mean that someone else may not have received the message addressed to their twitter account, their facebook account or their AGR account.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

the_traveler said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fillyjonk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if everyone who ever bought a ticket (and gave an e-mail address) got Boardman's letter.
> 
> I did - then again, I have an upcoming trip. (I was nervous when I saw A Message From Amtrak, I thought at first, oh, are they bustituting me?)
> 
> 
> 
> I got the letter sent to my AGR email address.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> willem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I received the letter at my AGR email address. Spouse, who has not registered an email address with AGR (but who has received etickets from Amtrak by email) did not receive the letter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> At first, I was going to say I didn't receive it. But then I looked closer at my email - and found it.
> It was an email notification for my *TWITTER* account as to where it was! You then had to click the link in the Twitter post to read it.
> 
> So it was not everyone who provided an email to Amtrak. Instead, it was everyone who has a Twitter account *AND* follows Amtrak!
Click to expand...

Dave, I don't have a Twitter account. I do have an AGR account which is probably where I got the letter (I have a separate email for AGR and have those emails forwarded my regular email acct).


----------



## neroden

I have to elaborate on this:



Hytec said:


> To those saying the private railroads got out of passenger trains solely because they were not profitable. Yes, that is true, but for far more complex reasons than as simply stated here. First, advances in air travel after WW-II sucked passengers away from railroads due to SPEED of travel.


...and massive government subsidies to airports, along with a regulated duopoly system which guaranteed airline profitability


> Second, advances in automobile technologies and development of the Interstate system sucked many more due to efficiency of PERSONAL travel.


...and massive government subsidies to the road system, of a scale which is hardly imaginable. The federal government paid 90% of the cost of pretty much any crazy road project anyone came up with, while state and local governments paid the rest.
Meanwhile, the railroads were paying very high property taxes on their land (often much higher than neighboring property owners), and paying a surcharge "ticket tax" dating from WWII.

Starting in the late 1940s, the deck was stacked against the railroads.



> Thirdly, and the straw that broke the camel's (railroad's) back, was the cancellation of ALL mail contracts by the US Postal Service in 1967. The Postal contracts were the only revenue source that allowed private railroads to balance and offset the perennial losses from carrying passengers. The one positive aspect of carrying passengers that the railroad executives recognized was that passengers, mostly corporate executives, decision-making managers, and publically notable figures, enjoyed was the on-time performance and luxury service similar to that from a five-star hotel. It wasn't until passage of the Staggers Act in the early 1980s that railroads were deregulated and removed from the tightly-controlled choke-hold of their rates and tariffs by the Interstate Commerce Commission that had existed since the early 1900s. The Staggers Act allowed railroads to charge actual costs for transportation, rather that what Congress and the ICC thought was fair and appropriate, a pathetically laughable situation.


In addition, the ticket tax was repealed, localities were required to charge property taxes at rates which were the same as they charged other property owners, and railroad diesel fuel was given the same tax exemption as airline fuel. The huge levels of road & airport subsidies continued, although the airport subsidies started declining in the mid-1990s after some well-publicized money-pits, and the road subsidies finally started dropping around the time the Highway Trust Fund ran out of money (four or five years ago).

By then, of course, the passenger services had mostly been transferred to public agencies. Who have done a pretty good job frankly, having been handed decades of deferred maintenance.


----------



## the_traveler

Well, I have the same email address in my profiles for both AGR and amtrak.com, but only received it from the Twitter notification.


----------



## jis

the_traveler said:


> Well, I have the same email address in my profiles for both AGR and amtrak.com, but only received it from the Twitter notification.


Hey Dave, I think they have finally caught onto you at AGR and don't want to talk to you anymore


----------



## the_traveler

I don't want to talk to them either - but must to book my sleeper awards!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

The NTSB is planning to interview the SEPTA engineer this weekend.

http://6abc.com/news/-ntsb-to-interview-septa-engineer;-train-window-struck/720193/


----------



## jis

Incidentally, I read yesterday that FRA and Amtrak have agreed to have Amtrak start using signal speed enforcement to force trains to slow down to 45mph on the Frankford Curve eastbound, when the tracks reopen for service later this weekend or on Monday. Unfortunately I can;t find the exact reference anymore. One source for this info is the WSJ.

For further discussion of this subtopic see the thread http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64234-fra-orders-amtrak-to-modify-signal-system/

Service is supposed to have resumed to Atlantic City by NJT already.


----------



## George K

Not only 188 and SEPTA, but also Acela?

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/05/13/amtrak-crash-septa-projectile/



> Washington resident Madison Calvert says that he was on an Amtrak Acela train from New York to Philadelphia when it was struck by an object, breaking his passenger window. Calvert says that the train left New York a few minutes late and that it was minutes from arriving at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station when his window shattered.
> 
> "It had to be between 9:05 and 9:10," he says. "It was a pretty big impact. When we arrived at 30th Street, Amtrak cops boarded and took photos of the window."
> 
> Calvert tweeted his own photo of the window:
> 
> .@fox5newsdc @FOX29philly @CNN-all very scary.Window shattered on #amtrak 2173 in opposite direction minutes before. pic.twitter.com/FG3gbv1Pna



Hizzoner Mayor Nutter said that the Acela incident was not related to the crash of 188.


----------



## George K

Within 18 minutes, we have two, and perhaps three trains struck by objects.

What's the old saw?

If it happens once, it's an accident.

If it happens twice, it's a coincidence.

If it happens three times, it's a conspiracy.

/ tinfoil hat on


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I recall someone on the Acela said it happened near St Christopher's Hospital, which I believe, is east (right) of your SEPTA circle - near the 1st curve.

The Acela hit has been mentioned before.


----------



## George K

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Acela hit has been mentioned before.


You're right. Ryan linked the story. My bad.


----------



## Ryan

It has. Also worth noting that the damage to the Acela was to a side window. It's one thing to toss a rock at a train and damage a windshield.

It's a whole nother thing to do that to a side window, I don't think you could throw a rock hard enough to make that happen.


----------



## jis

George K said:


> Hizzoner Mayor Nutter said that the Acela incident was not related to the crash of 188.


Hizzoner has already exhibited a propensity to arrive at conclusions about things based on nothing. So his diagnosis can safely be ignored for the purposes of the investigation I should think.



George K said:


> Within 18 minutes, we have two, and perhaps three trains struck by objects.
> 
> What's the old saw?
> 
> If it happens once, it's an accident.
> 
> If it happens twice, it's a coincidence.
> 
> If it happens three times, it's a conspiracy.
> 
> / tinfoil hat on


Well, in that area, even if it happens "n" times, it is just "North Philadelphia" unfortunately :help:


----------



## Guest

Its interesting in investigations like this, that the officials will often use terms like "object", "projectile", and "missile", for something us mere normal people would call a bullet.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I don't understand why SEPTA was so quick to say their hit has nothing to do with the wreck. It's not like people are going to blame SEPTA for the accident.


----------



## fillyjonk

Ryan said:


> It has. Also worth noting that the damage to the Acela was to a side window. It's one thing to toss a rock at a train and damage a windshield.
> 
> It's a whole nother thing to do that to a side window, I don't think you could throw a rock hard enough to make that happen.


MANY MANY years ago, on a southbound Viewliner (The TE) out of Chicago, a kid hurled a rock and hit my passenger window. The rock bounced off. Even though I was startled (and quickly felt annoyed), nothing resulted from it, not even a chip to the window. (I don't think the kid was doing it to be "criminal," I think it was just a kid - he was pretty young - doing something stupid and not-thought-out).

I suspect it takes more than a simply-thrown rock to shatter a passenger window.

If indeed this whole "projectiles" hypothesis is supported, that's pretty alarming. (And makes the mayor look bad, given all his bluster against the engineer)


----------



## jis

Guest said:


> Its interesting in investigations like this, that the officials will often use terms like "object", "projectile", and "missile", for something us mere normal people would call a bullet.


At least the NTSB will not make a categorical statement that specific until they have actually established through an investigation that it was indeed that. They are exceedingly careful about such things, mainly to keep themselves from prejudging things without going through a careful and through analysis.

OTOH, I have seen many shattered windows from a large brick or rock strike. So one can never be sure until experts have had a time to analyze and come to a definitive conclusion.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Guest said:


> Its interesting in investigations like this, that the officials will often use terms like "object", "projectile", and "missile", for something us mere normal people would call a bullet.


because we don't know that it was a bullet. Could have been a rock or a brick or some other kind of projectile. An investigator should never make a statement until he knows that it is true.


----------



## Rover

Guest said:


> Its interesting in investigations like this, that the officials will often use terms like "object", "projectile", and "missile", for something us mere normal people would call a bullet.


Congress has announced they are going to hold hearings on the 188 crash. Dates have not been set. But that said, in congressional hearings, they like to look at pictures and charts of projectiles and missles...


----------



## Headache

jis said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hizzoner Mayor Nutter said that the Acela incident was not related to the crash of 188.
> 
> 
> 
> Hizzoner has already exhibited a propensity to arrive at conclusions about things based on nothing. So his diagnosis can safely be ignored for the purposes of the investigation I should think.
Click to expand...

I ignored him as soon as he started yapping about the cause of the crash, I believe that was the next day and the NTSB and FBI hadn't even arrived yet.

My concern now is that if it is found to have been caused by malicious persons and projectiles and now the trains are required to go slower that they are going to make for easier targets. We shall see what the investigations produce...


----------



## Guest

The House subcommitee is indeed holding hearings and I wonder if Joe Boardman will be testifying. I presume he would happily agree without pleading the fifth or being compelled to testify.

Germany had an incident as well just recently with a passenger train where a tractor plowed into a train. Rail crossings have risk factors and risks have to be mitigated and safety could be increased to account for issues using technological solutions but it can never be perfect.

For the USA Northeastern corridor rail traffic is over 11 million passengers, I don't know exact figures but death toll is statistically low.

More people use rail in the northeast corridor than airplane I believe. NYC to WAS is not one of the top used routes for instance. Issue can be resolved quickly here and prevented increasing safety rates.


----------



## George K

Guest said:


> The House subcommitee is indeed holding hearings and I wonder if Joe Boardman will be testifying. I presume he would happily agree without pleading the fifth or being compelled to testify.
> 
> Germany had an incident as well just recently with a passenger train where a tractor plowed into a train. Rail crossings have risk factors and risks have to be mitigated and safety could be increased to account for issues using technological solutions but it can never be perfect.
> 
> For the USA Northeastern corridor rail traffic is over 11 million passengers, I don't know exact figures but death toll is statistically low.
> 
> More people use rail in the northeast corridor than airplane I believe. NYC to WAS is not one of the top used routes for instance. Issue can be resolved quickly here and prevented increasing safety rates.


According to USA Today, since its inception, Amtrak has had fewer than 200 passenger fatalities. Most of them were caused by people jumping on or off trains. That's a pretty good record. Per passenger mile, only flying is safer (by a factor of about 2).

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/05/13/amtrak-rail-fatalities-safety-recommendations/27230569/


----------



## guest_nj_2

Assuming those were indeed bricks or stones that hit both SEPTA and Amtrak 188,

the most probable explanation would be that they were thrown from a bridge.

It's almost impossible to time the rock throw from the ground to hit the windshield

of a moving train; it's much easier to do from an elevation.

Unless there were two coordinated gang groups in separate locations, most likely

these objects were thrown from the same bridge, one at the PHL-bound SEPTA

and another at the NYC-bound Amtrak 188.

Are there any bridges in the area (around Germantown Ave or so ?) where this

could have been perpetrated ?


----------



## guest_nj_2

for example, bridge across rail tracks on North 5-th street ?

It seems to have concrete guards, but they are not too tall,

a couple of people (especially under the cover of night) can

lean over it.


----------



## Shack

guest_nj_2 said:


> Assuming those were indeed bricks or stones that hit both SEPTA and Amtrak 188,
> 
> the most probable explanation would be that they were thrown from a bridge.
> 
> It's almost impossible to time the rock throw from the ground to hit the windshield
> 
> of a moving train; it's much easier to do from an elevation.
> 
> Unless there were two coordinated gang groups in separate locations, most likely
> 
> these objects were thrown from the same bridge, one at the PHL-bound SEPTA
> 
> and another at the NYC-bound Amtrak 188.
> 
> Are there any bridges in the area (around Germantown Ave or so ?) where this
> 
> could have been perpetrated ?


The Acela that was hit seems to have been struck broadside. Has anyone seen pictures of the SEPTA train damage after it was struck?

Putting the available info together, it seems like a launched projectile with greater mass and/or velocity than a kid tossing a rock. All speculation, of course, but Nutter should be preparing a nice dish of crow in case he needs to eat it.


----------



## MattW

Jis, could Amtrak ask the FRA to allow them to transmit cab-60 instead of Approach Limited through the curve? It seems that a speed just 10mph over the limit would still provide a considerable margin of safety, without having to lengthen the schedule, considering thousands of trains have operated through that curve with no speed enforcement with no speed-related issues.


----------



## Guest

The only plausible senario that would not implicate the engineer is that there was a problem with the Sprinter. Even if an object is thrown, the windshield is made so it won't affect the vehicle and it should not have led to this incident.

Had a disabling event happened, and correct speed was being used, the train would have just slown down. The speed up condition would not have happened.

One possible senario could be that the train was hacked. Every vehicle has security limitations that need to be addressed and security of computer based transportation is more important than ever. Another senario is firmware problem with sudden acceleration.

The three incidents of items being thrown at trains should in no way have forced a train derailment. Only way it could have been related is if it was a smokescreen event designed to hide the true cause and was intentionally staged. Obviously others have the expertise I don't have in the Sprinter control design and have operated these trains but I find it implausible the engineers would have made a design that could have allowed this outcome to happen.

I am more familiar with aircraft controls than train controls and the advanced avionics are quite incredible and the Sprinters were supposed to be the latest state of the art locomotives.


----------



## andersone

i am amazed at how selective we are

big time highway tragedies don't' get congressional investigations

it takes an earthquake to bring down a bridge down to question highways

no comment on flighted disasters


----------



## FormerOBS

You're thinking about airplane controls or automobile controls. Your confusion is understandable.

I understand the normal procedure in this territory is for the engineer to advance the throttle to Run 8 and allow the train to continue to accelerate until a short distance before the curve, when he would have eased back on the throttle and made a controlled brake application to bring the train down to an appropriate speed for the curve. One possible scenario is that a projectile struck the locomotive just about the time he should have been beginning to decelerate. In this scenario, he was briefly rendered incapable of carrying out his normal routine procedures.

The engine does not immediately stop accelerating just because the engineer takes his hand off the throttle. A motion sensor detects an engineer's lack of movement after a short time and an audible alarm is sounded. If he does not respond after another short time period (varies), then the brakes are automatically applied. In this highly unusual case, he took his hand off the throttle while the engine was at 60 or 70 miles per hour and still accelerating. According to this scenario, the engineer was incapacitated during this brief period. In the following seconds, the alerter probably sounded (speculation on my part), and Engineer Bostian responded before the system had a chance to apply brakes. He hit the red emergency brake button, which "dumped the air", putting the train into a full emergency stop. I understand the speed dropped from about 106 or 107 m.p.h. to about 102 m.p.h., at which point he entire train derailed.

You may think the system should stop the train any time the engineer takes his hand off the throttle. Over the course of a trip, many, many changes in throttle settings are necessary between Washington and New York. There are also many times when the engineer can take his hand off the throttle. If the system demanded that he keep his hand on the throttle constantly, it would be almost impossible for a normal human being to do so. In fact, the very act of maintaining constant throttle contact would probably be very distracting in itself.

The area is said to be a high crime area where trains are routinely "rocked" as they pass by. Rocks, bricks, etc. are thrown at passing trains from trackside or from bridges. This has been the case for generations. I understand President Theodore Roosevelt's train got the rock treatment in 1905.

It is understandable that engineers are reluctant to move through this area any more slowly than absolutely necessary. I believe Bostian, aware of the rock problem, wanted to get to the curve as quickly as possible, decelerate to the regulation speed, then accelerate to get out of town as quickly as possible. If the projectile theory holds, then the rock(s) interfered with his ability to do so.

I must add that the final explanation has still not been determined.

Tom


----------



## DryCreek

Guest said:


> The* three incidents of items being thrown at trains* should in no way have forced a train derailment. Only way it could have been related is if it was a smokescreen event designed to hide the true cause and was intentionally staged. Obviously others have the expertise I don't have in the Sprinter control design and have operated these trains but I find it implausible the engineers would have made a design that could have allowed this outcome to happen.


I am amused by the posters that are lightly prancing around the damaged train windows.

So, exactly what item do you propose was "thrown at the train"? A pebble? A rock somewhat less than 1/2" in diameter? Go back and look at the impact area in each of the photos. We are not talking about bricks or cinder blocks being heaved off of a bridge.

Those windshields are designed to prevent penetration of low caliber bullets. In both both images you can see that they very nearly penetrated the glass from a point impact. Now, if those are caused by some misguided youth throwing small rocks, pebbles or marbles, then if they could turn their life around they have a very promising career as a major league pitcher!

When you know what the windshield is designed to protect you against, and suddenly a round impact with most likely a very sharp crack and splinters from glass spalling flies into your control cab, I would naturally assume that I was taking small arms fire. I would duck and high-tail it out of the area.

But, if it makes you feel better to just imagine that it is little more than a rock striking the windshield of a car, I guess that would allow you to more easily discount that as a possible explanation for the engineer not controlling speed around a bend.


----------



## Macintosh Worm

If folks keep speculating here until the NTSB issues its findings report in, oh about a year, this thread will likely be 'one for the record books' for AU. 

Has anyone suggest that the onboard computer in the engine was hacked yet?


----------



## FormerOBS

I have no idea what the object was, or even if there really was one (or more). We'll probably have to wait for the investigation to be concluded before we'll know for sure.

Tom


----------



## KmH

Macintosh Worm said:


> Has anyone suggest that the onboard computer in the engine was hacked yet?


Post #581 mentions it.


----------



## Ryan

Guest said:


> The only plausible senario that would not implicate the engineer is that there was a problem with the Sprinter. Even if an object is thrown, the windshield is made so it won't affect the vehicle and it should not have led to this incident.


We're not talking about an object "thrown". You need to broaden your imagination.



DryCreek said:


> I am amused by the posters that are lightly prancing around the damaged train windows.
> 
> So, exactly what item do you propose was "thrown at the train"? A pebble? A rock somewhat less than 1/2" in diameter?


I'm thinking something more metallic, primarily lead. Maybe around 9mm in diameter or so?

Here's a picture of the three windows in question. Note that the rightmost image is of the side window of the Acela. If someone was able to throw a rock hard enough to do that to the side of a train as it passed, forget the police, every MLB scout in the nation will be hunting that kid down.


----------



## FormerOBS

I take back what I said before. Now that I get a better view, it looks like bullets could have done that.

Tom


----------



## Ryan

While looking for the picture of the David L. Gunn, I realized that one of my few ACS-64 pictures is of the 601:


----------



## guest_nj_2

Still -- even if the trains were shot at (instead of thrown rocks at), then it was done

likely from the bridge (much easier to hit the windshield). Acela could have been shot

from the ground. Locating the possible bridge may help investigation tremendously

(as they can search around it for ricocheted bullets).

Incredible nuts are the people who shoot at trains, point lasers at descending planes, etc.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

guest_nj_2 said:


> Incredible nuts are the people who shoot at trains, point lasers at descending planes, etc.


Ones who need about 20-30 years minimum in an 8 by 12 to think about it!


----------



## capltd29

OlympianHiawatha said:


> guest_nj_2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Incredible nuts are the people who shoot at trains, point lasers at descending planes, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Ones who need about 20-30 years minimum in an 8 by 12 to think about it!
Click to expand...

Maybe 20-30 years per fatality? 10 years per injury? Sounds fair to me, although I would prefer maybe a 4'X6'.


----------



## GG-1

Many of us here have had enough, PLEASE stop turning this Tragedy into a mockery with wild guesses. Let the experts finish the investigation.


----------



## NW cannonball

jis said:


> For those interested in hearing it from the proverbial horse's mouth, you can see the third presser from NTSB in its entirety here:


I've learned to like Sumwalt's pressers. Viewed half-a-dozen last few years. Very clear, very upfront about what NTSB knows, what they will further investigate."Just the facts, and we don't know all the facts yet"

The final report will likely take a year or more.

But -- as with the recent Metro-North overspeed wreck, and several others, urgent safety findings will be released much sooner.

The final report (there's lots of those freely availble at NTSB.gov) will include a whole long checklist of determinations and reccomendations, from track and signal to train condition, survivability, weather, emergency response (seems Philly did a good job on the emergency response), management failures, regulatory problems - and much much more.

Unfortunatly, the NTSB's final recommendations often aren't implemented.

"Positive train control? --delayed again and again"


----------



## Rover

guest_nj_2 said:


> Still -- even if the trains were shot at (instead of thrown rocks at), then it was done
> 
> likely from the bridge (much easier to hit the windshield). Acela could have been shot
> 
> from the ground. Locating the possible bridge may help investigation tremendously
> 
> (as they can search around it for ricocheted bullets).


In the case of a likely bridge where this keeps happening, why wouldn't the DOT or some othe agency pay to have survelience cameras installed there???


----------



## caravanman

I for one don't like this "kangaroo court" thread on AU. Nobody here knows what went wrong, and these "guest" airplane and other "experts" who have all the answers for how other folk should behave in an imaginary scenario of their own minds, have no more FACTS than anyone else. Is it American justice to hang a man first, and have the trial later ??

Ed


----------



## Henry Kisor

It is human nature to want immediate answers. That is what the media plays to. Yes, we should wait until the NTSB makes its final report in a year (it may make a preliminary report within 30 days) but let's face it, we are a species that demands immediate gratification.


----------



## NW cannonball

Henry Kisor said:


> It is human nature to want immediate answers. That is what the media plays to. Yes, we should wait until the NTSB makes its final report in a year (it may make a preliminary report within 30 days) but let's face it, we are a species that demands immediate gratification.


And, we should consider that, every day, on the WAS-NYP corridor - at least 8 people die and a few hundred are damaged in road traffic - automobiles, buses, pedestrians.Not to say that we shouldnt fix rail transport risks.

Some perspective, and relative risk analysis (sorry, media)

Actually, and obviously - riding Amtrak WAS-NYP is a whole lot safer than driving, or walking, or even crossing the street in North Philadelphia. (Not to mention "falls in the home" or "Acetaminophen overdose") (statistically - much bigger risks


----------



## jis

Yup I am getting a bit tired of it too. Tried to steer it back to known and verified facts but then found it quite distressing when otherwise sane folks on AU started losing their marbles and speculating away. So I guess I am done participating here for the time being. Have fun!

If anyone wants to chat about serious stuff seriously feel free to pm.


----------



## DryCreek

Ryan said:


> I'm thinking something more metallic, primarily lead. Maybe around *9mm* in diameter or so?


It's kinda funny that when _you_ speculate about the possible diameter of the "flying objects that struck the windshield" the post stays. When_ I _speculate on the diameter (based on recent history) my posts "dissolve" after only a few hours. If it is some violation of forum policy, the moderator deleting or editing the post will send you a PM informing you of the breach of protocol in every other forum I am an active member of. Since that hasn't happened here, I guess that I should blame the NSA.

But, back to the picture of the Sprinter windshield - that is closer and at a better angle than any I've seen before. Just above and to the right of the large impact area near the wiper blade, does that look like another possible impact point? One that didn't penetrate the glass? There actually appears to be a hole in the upper-center of the larger impact area. As far as the size of the hole, I can only speculate that it appears to have been made by a "projectile" slightly smaller than 1/4".


----------



## willem

Ryan said:


> While looking for the picture of the David L. Gunn, I realized that one of my few ACS-64 pictures is of the 601:


The white circle in the right window (as an exterior observer looks at the front of the locomotive) that I thought had been identified as a forward-looking camera seems to be missing. Perhaps it was installed later? Maybe I misunderstood earlier explanations of the white circle?


----------



## pennyk

DryCreek said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking something more metallic, primarily lead. Maybe around *9mm* in diameter or so?
> 
> 
> 
> It's kinda funny that when _you_ speculate about the possible diameter of the "flying objects that struck the windshield" the post stays. When_ I _speculate on the diameter (based on recent history) my posts "dissolve" after only a few hours. If it is some violation of forum policy, the moderator deleting or editing the post will send you a PM informing you of the breach of protocol in every other forum I am an active member of. Since that hasn't happened here, I guess that I should blame the NSA.
Click to expand...

Ideally, the moderators will PM a member when it is not obvious why a post has been deleted or edited. In the past few days, especially in this thread, there have been an abundance of off topic, purely speculative, and otherwise inappropriate posts. The moderators are doing their best to keep this thread on topic, and we appreciate the efforts of members and guests to do so when posting. We have not been able to PM each member every time an inappropriate post has been hidden/deleted. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


----------



## Phil Law

Penny: if you're going to moderate a forum that allows guests to post at all, and pull down any lucid and well written post you find disagreeable even if it's plenty reasonable, then maybe it's time to lockout this thread in its entirety.

The NTSB and other agencies are doing their jobs behind the scenes, there is no news to post on this topic, and a lot of regular crybabies are getting upset at the idea that engineer of 188 may have actually made a HUGE mistake. Perhaps just as the NTSB is behind the scenes at this point, perhaps this thread should be too. Lock it out.

But pulling down well constructed posts willy-nilly, even if they are from educated guests, is disgraceful to the concept of a discussion site. Shame on you.


----------



## Shack

GG-1 said:


> Many of us here have had enough, PLEASE stop turning this Tragedy into a mockery with wild guesses. Let the experts finish the investigation.


I found this board (and joined) because it has one of the most reasonable conversations about the wreck of #188. Any discussion is going to include some speculation, but it's human nature to want to discuss something that's cause is apparently so easy (speed) and hard (why) to understand. 
I also suggest that for many of us who ride the NEC regularly, the NTSB stating they are looking into projectiles (which remember, just days ago even the idea of projectiles was "Internet speculation), increase the wariness and hunger for information.

I am among the thousands who will ride the NEC tomorrow. If this was a deliberate attack (not an accident or random vandalism), then there is an immediacy to the relevance of this conversation and the sharing of information.

The wreck and the attacks may be related or they may not.

In either case, we have a serious issue of "projectiles" hitting trains on the NEC and that is an active and valid concern, regardless of any connection to #188. Agreed?


----------



## CHamilton

Rock Hurling Is Old Nemesis of Train Crews

Indeed, my family was remembering the time that my grandfather, a PRR engineer, was shot while at the controls of his GG-1. We don't recall the exact date or location, but he was hospitalized for a long time, and the doctors eventually decided not to remove the bullet. He carried that reminder until he died many years later.


----------



## Guest

NTSB says there was no record of any communications of a projectile hitting the train to dispatch. Yet others said they thought he may have said something over the radio which either was not sent or did not receive dispatch.

I wonder what turn the investigation will take from here.


----------



## Guest

I think the cause of this case already is pretty obvious from the data received and incident can be avoided in the future of mass casualties like this with the right technologies.

But short term, rail lines need better police protection and should be repairing and replacing fencing with security cameras in dangerous right of way areas such as Philadelphia.

While Baltimore had their issues, it seems Philadelphia had issues too and led to casualties on Amtrak.

Amtrak has generally been statistically safe, even safer than driving.


----------



## Ryan

DryCreek said:


> It's kinda funny that when _you_ speculate about the possible diameter of the "flying objects that struck the windshield" the post stays.


I wasn't necessarily speculating on the size of the projectile, as to making reference to *what* it was.



willem said:


> The white circle in the right window (as an exterior observer looks at the front of the locomotive) that I thought had been identified as a forward-looking camera seems to be missing. Perhaps it was installed later? Maybe I misunderstood earlier explanations of the white circle?


I'm not sure what circle you're talking about, but you can see the camera installed inside the fireman's side window next to the center pillar:




Edit: In this post accident picture, you can see the camera at the bottom of the window:


----------



## PRR 60

Phil Law said:


> Penny: if you're going to moderate a forum that allows guests to post at all, and pull down any lucid and well written post you find disagreeable even if it's plenty reasonable, then maybe it's time to lockout this thread in its entirety.
> 
> The NTSB and other agencies are doing their jobs behind the scenes, there is no news to post on this topic, and a lot of regular crybabies are getting upset at the idea that engineer of 188 may have actually made a HUGE mistake. Perhaps just as the NTSB is behind the scenes at this point, perhaps this thread should be too. Lock it out.
> 
> But pulling down well constructed posts willy-nilly, even if they are from educated guests, is disgraceful to the concept of a discussion site. Shame on you.


From a guest, no less.

Moderating this site is no fun. Handling this particular topic, with posts coming by the dozen around the clock with opinions from valid to ridiculous, is even more difficult. Every one of the staff members here is doing the best they can (and, it's a hobby, not a profession).

You want a say as to how things are run here - join. As a "guest," not speaking for the staff, but for myself, I couldn't care less how you feel about this site's moderation. Don't like it here? Don't visit. Take your "shame on you,' and shove it.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

PRR 60 said:


> Phil Law said:
> 
> 
> 
> Penny: if you're going to moderate a forum that allows guests to post at all, and pull down any lucid and well written post you find disagreeable even if it's plenty reasonable, then maybe it's time to lockout this thread in its entirety.
> 
> The NTSB and other agencies are doing their jobs behind the scenes, there is no news to post on this topic, and a lot of regular crybabies are getting upset at the idea that engineer of 188 may have actually made a HUGE mistake. Perhaps just as the NTSB is behind the scenes at this point, perhaps this thread should be too. Lock it out.
> 
> But pulling down well constructed posts willy-nilly, even if they are from educated guests, is disgraceful to the concept of a discussion site. Shame on you.
> 
> 
> 
> From a guest, no less.
> 
> Moderating this site is no fun. Handling this particular topic, with posts coming by the dozen around the clock with opinions from valid to ridiculous, is even more difficult. Every one of the staff members here is doing the best they can (and, it's a hobby, not a profession).
> 
> You want a say as to how things are run here - join. As a "guest," not speaking for the staff, but for myself, I couldn't care less how you feel about this site's moderation. Don't like it here? Don't visit. Take your "shame on you,' and shove it.
Click to expand...

As a Public Relations person, I find you have taken a disasterous attitude toward this Board. What if a Business Owner expressed that kind of attitude towards his or her Customers? It makes for a good reason to go elsewhere.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

The 188 mystery deepends as an NTSB Member told one of the Sunday Morning TV Talkers the Engineer of the other Regional recalls no radio communication about being hit and Dispatch tapes have no such conversation on file. He also mentioned the impact on the 188 windshield looks to be Grapefruit size, possibly ruling out a bullet. We shall hopefully soon find out as NTSB puts the puzzle together......


----------



## RampWidget

Phil Law said:


> Penny: if you're going to moderate a forum that allows guests to post at all, and pull down any lucid and well written post you find disagreeable even if it's plenty reasonable, then maybe it's time to lockout this thread in its entirety.
> 
> The NTSB and other agencies are doing their jobs behind the scenes, there is no news to post on this topic, and a lot of regular crybabies are getting upset at the idea that engineer of 188 may have actually made a HUGE mistake. Perhaps just as the NTSB is behind the scenes at this point, perhaps this thread should be too. Lock it out.
> 
> But pulling down well constructed posts willy-nilly, even if they are from educated guests, is disgraceful to the concept of a discussion site. Shame on you.


You are out of line, sir, and your lack of respect to the people who volunteer their personal time to moderate our forum is appalling.


----------



## PRR 60

OlympianHiawatha said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phil Law said:
> 
> 
> 
> Penny: if you're going to moderate a forum that allows guests to post at all, and pull down any lucid and well written post you find disagreeable even if it's plenty reasonable, then maybe it's time to lockout this thread in its entirety.
> 
> The NTSB and other agencies are doing their jobs behind the scenes, there is no news to post on this topic, and a lot of regular crybabies are getting upset at the idea that engineer of 188 may have actually made a HUGE mistake. Perhaps just as the NTSB is behind the scenes at this point, perhaps this thread should be too. Lock it out.
> 
> But pulling down well constructed posts willy-nilly, even if they are from educated guests, is disgraceful to the concept of a discussion site. Shame on you.
> 
> 
> 
> From a guest, no less.
> 
> Moderating this site is no fun. Handling this particular topic, with posts coming by the dozen around the clock with opinions from valid to ridiculous, is even more difficult. Every one of the staff members here is doing the best they can (and, it's a hobby, not a profession).
> 
> You want a say as to how things are run here - join. As a "guest," not speaking for the staff, but for myself, I couldn't care less how you feel about this site's moderation. Don't like it here? Don't visit. Take your "shame on you,' and shove it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As a Public Relations person, I find you have taken a disasterous attitude toward this Board. What if a Business Owner expressed that kind of attitude towards his or her Customers? It makes for a good reason to go elsewhere.
Click to expand...

We absolutely listen to members, as I hope you know. What got me was the "shame on you" being thrown at a person who tries her very best to do what is right for the discussion here - and it was thrown out there by a guest. Very few discussion boards even permit guest postings. We do. We will even listen to guest suggestions. But, "shame on you?" Sorry, that was simply out of line and called for a response.

As for going elsewhere, well there are lots of other rail discussion boards. I defy anyone to find one that is as liberal with the content permitted as this one. Of course, to post at those sites, you would have to join. And, if you then publicly said "shame on you" to a staffer there, you would be unjoined very rapidly.


----------



## Jerry_in_San_Diego

There seem to be experts here, so I have a question for you. There is a great deal of talk in the media about how Positive Train Control might have prevented this accident. But I have heard no one mention the possibility that it may have been used by a hacker to accelerate the train and cause the accident. I have read that the train, if not that section of track, was equipped with PTC. I have also read that PTC's "Locomotive speed control unit", when active, can apply the brakes. My question is, can PTC take control of the speed of the train and actually accelerate it?


----------



## Ryan

PRR 60 said:


> Moderating this site is no fun. Handling this particular topic, with posts coming by the dozen around the clock with opinions from valid to ridiculous, is even more difficult. Every one of the staff members here is doing the best they can (and, it's a hobby, not a profession).


And your best is pretty damn good, even in difficult circumstances like these.



OlympianHiawatha said:


> It makes for a good reason to go elsewhere.


Let us know how that works out for you. I doubt you'll find a board as accommodating as this one anywhere else.



Jerry_in_San_Diego said:


> But I have heard no one mention the possibility that it may have been used by a hacker to accelerate the train and cause the accident.


That's not really a plausible scenario.


----------



## reppin_the_847

Ryan said:


> While looking for the picture of the David L. Gunn, I realized that one of my few ACS-64 pictures is of the 601:


What a beautiful locomotive (sleek, shiny, really brand new in the scheme of things). This whole incident is just so difficult to swallow (much like high profile airline crashes) with the loss of life involving folks doing something we take for granted all the time. I think this incident really hits home for a lot of us with our affinity for riding trains. Again, R.I.P. to all the victims and condolences to all the families of the victims. I really hope that we can find out why this occurred and that the proper safety mechanisms can be put in place to prevent future incidents such as this.


----------



## CHamilton

This has been a very tough week for everyone who cares about trains, we the passengers, and the organizations that keep them running. The amount of verbal garbage that has been spouted by people with no knowledge has been astounding. (Check out what's being said about the engineer's personal life if you dare, but I warn you, you'll need a strong stomach.)

I've been glued to my computer almost nonstop since Tuesday night, trying to keep up with the groups I admin on Facebook. The moderators here have been doing the same. The AU moderators deserve _*BIG kudos*_ for what they have been doing, volunteering their time and energy because they care about trains, and the people who ride and run them.

*THANK YOU!*

Now, let's make sure that the American passenger rail system becomes the best and safest that it can be. Take time out from writing here, and tell your elected officials that you support trains! NARP has made it easy to contact Congress, but also tell your state and local leaders.

If this tragedy leads to an improved and safer system, then the passengers who died will not have done so in vain.


----------



## rusty spike

Agreed!!!!


----------



## Jerry_in_San_Diego

Jerry_in_San_Diego said:


> But I have heard no one mention the possibility that it may have been used by a hacker to accelerate the train and cause the accident.


Engineer answered: "That's not really a plausible scenario."

Could you be more specific? WHY is that not a plausible scenario? At the most basic level, does the positive train control system have the capability to accelerate a train, or can it only slow it down? If the latter, then clearly the hacking scenario is not plausible. Is that the case, or can a train be commanded by a computer to speed up? Does anybody here know?


----------



## Bob Dylan

As a member who has had posts modified and taken down by the moderators of this forum ( rightfully, since I am an strongly opinionated political junkie), I applaud the hard working moderators, committee members and administrators that keep the best rail forum on the net going from for we train lovers!

I have met and gotten to know all of them, and can testify that they are fair, friendly and hard working folks who I sometimes disagree with but would never insult, threaten to leave or call names!

Civility in this country has become rare thanks in part to being able to hide on the internet! If you won't own your opinions and ideas you're dishonest and a coward hiding behind a mask!

I challenge all of our guests to join as members, participate fully in the forum and if you find its not for you, as Michael Jackson sang, ".. just ease on down the road.."


----------



## BrianPR3

Just In; Full Amtrak Service Restored on Monday


----------



## Ryan

Yay!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Great news! Kuddos to the hard working gangs that pulled this off so quickly!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Wah! Why not now? J/K

I'm on 50 and have to switch to a late NER in WAS to get to WIL.


----------



## CHamilton

AMTRAK TO RESTORE SERVICE BETWEEN PHILADELPHIA AND NEW YORK CITY


----------



## Guest

Full service on Monday? I thought partial on Monday. Guess it was changed.

I guess life goes on and Amtrak will be functional again.


----------



## NAVYBLUE

RampWidget said:


> Phil Law said:
> 
> 
> 
> Penny: if you're going to moderate a forum that allows guests to post at all, and pull down any lucid and well written post you find disagreeable even if it's plenty reasonable, then maybe it's time to lockout this thread in its entirety.
> 
> The NTSB and other agencies are doing their jobs behind the scenes, there is no news to post on this topic, and a lot of regular crybabies are getting upset at the idea that engineer of 188 may have actually made a HUGE mistake. Perhaps just as the NTSB is behind the scenes at this point, perhaps this thread should be too. Lock it out.
> 
> But pulling down well constructed posts willy-nilly, even if they are from educated guests, is disgraceful to the concept of a discussion site. Shame on you.
> 
> 
> 
> You are out of line, sir, and your lack of respect to the people who volunteer their personal time to moderate our forum is appalling.
Click to expand...

I second that. I am well known to occasionally run afoul of the moderators but NEVER question there devotion to "try" and keep the forum civil, interesting and truthful. I may disagree with their decision to delete and/or modify my quotes, but I have found them to be very sincere in their efforts.


----------



## MARC Rider

CHamilton said:


> Rock Hurling Is Old Nemesis of Train Crews
> 
> Indeed, my family was remembering the time that my grandfather, a PRR engineer, was shot while at the controls of his GG-1. We don't recall the exact date or location, but he was hospitalized for a long time, and the doctors eventually decided not to remove the bullet. He carried that reminder until he died many years later.


I don't know about all of the states, but my state highway department (Maryland) seems to have enough funds on hand to build very substantial concrete "sound barriers" bordering all of the major urban and suburban interstate highways in our state. These barriers not only protect the surrounding communities from the noise of the traffic, but also make it a lot harder for people with bad intent to enter the highway right of way and throw rocks (or worse) at cars and trucks. So why can't they find a little money to do the same for railway rights of way? (I will say that I see that they are installing some new, sturdy looking fencing along the NEC right of way between New Carrolton (actually, the Capital Beltway) and Seabrook. I wonder, though, whether that particular fencing (open iron slats maybe 6-7 feet high) would be enough to stop rock throwers.


----------



## Bob Dylan

60 Minutes is going to replay the excellent Joe Boardman interview tonight (that includes the critical needs on the NEC) for those that haven't seen it!


----------



## NW cannonball

Shack said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of us here have had enough, PLEASE stop turning this Tragedy into a mockery with wild guesses. Let the experts finish the investigation.
> 
> 
> 
> I found this board (and joined) because it has one of the most reasonable conversations about the wreck of #188. Any discussion is going to include some speculation, but it's human nature to want to discuss something that's cause is apparently so easy (speed) and hard (why) to understand.
> I also suggest that for many of us who ride the NEC regularly, the NTSB stating they are looking into projectiles (which remember, just days ago even the idea of projectiles was "Internet speculation), increase the wariness and hunger for information.
> 
> I am among the thousands who will ride the NEC tomorrow. If this was a deliberate attack (not an accident or random vandalism), then there is an immediacy to the relevance of this conversation and the sharing of information.
> 
> The wreck and the attacks may be related or they may not.
> 
> In either case, we have a serious issue of "projectiles" hitting trains on the NEC and that is an active and valid concern, regardless of any connection to #188. Agreed?
Click to expand...

Agreed. Thanks for your concise and appropriate guest-post.This accident/incident/trainwreck, even without the media hype, directly and immediately concerns everyone who travels the NEC

Is it safe? How do I work around the disruption? And the long-term issues of maintenance and safety upgrades and what will it cost and who will pay.

I think the forum moderators have done a good job, keeping this forum, as always, the best place to go if you need help with using AMTRAK


----------



## George K

NW cannonball said:


> think the forum moderators have done a good job, keeping this forum, as always, the best place to go if you need help with using AMTRAK


----------



## willem

Ryan said:


> willem said:
> 
> 
> 
> The white circle in the right window (as an exterior observer looks at the front of the locomotive) that I thought had been identified as a forward-looking camera seems to be missing. Perhaps it was installed later? Maybe I misunderstood earlier explanations of the white circle?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what circle you're talking about, but you can see the camera installed inside the fireman's side window next to the center pillar:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camera.png
Click to expand...

I did misunderstand. Thank you for clearing it up.


----------



## Ryan

:hi: Happy to help!


----------



## FormerOBS

To Jerry in San Diego:

I'm certainly no expert on PTC, but my understanding is that it is intended to prevent accidents. Therefore, it comes into play when a train exceeds a speed limit, passes a restrictive signal, etc. Its power is limited to stopping or slowing a train, and I don't think it is able increase a train's speed. Just imagine a case where the PTC system is defective. If it is capable of increasing the train's speed, a defective PTC system could create a catastrophe. I'm not aware of anybody who believes it is a good idea to give that capability to a PTC system.

MARC Rider:

Construction of barriers that would keep people off the tracks and deaden sound would have to be paid for somehow. There seems to be lots of Federal money available to build them for highways, but none available to do the same for the NE Corridor. That's a question that would be better directed to Congress. Congress doesn't even want to spend the minimal amounts needed for basic equipment/infrastructure maintenance, let alone build something new like a fence. for Isn't it interesting that we have a culture that keeps its highways relatively free of trash (ever since Lady Bird Johnson), but still considers the railroad a free-access dumping ground?

Amtrak Blue:

Your question may have been intended as humor, but some may take it seriously. I can't say for sure, but I suspect the removal of debris and rebuilding of the track is a fairly simple task, compared to the task of building new catenary towers and stringing the lines. Monday service probably represents very good performance on the part of the many workers who are getting that job done as we speak.

Moderators:

Unlike the rest of us, I guess you aren't perfect. That's unfortunate, but we like you anyways --- at least we do when it's not our own personal ox you're goring. Keep up the good work.

Tom


----------



## JSmith

BrianPR3 said:


> Just In; Full Amtrak Service Restored on Monday


I can't imagine how much hard work has gone into restoring service as quickly as safely possible without compromising the investigation. Congratulations and many thanks for everyone's dedicated work. I am on the northbound Silver Meteor right now and I'm hoping this means we will be able to take a single train from Washington (where the Silver Meteor is terminating) to New York tomorrow. 
The original plan for us was a Northeast Regional to Philadelphia, a SEPTA train to West Trenton, a shuttle bus to Trenton, and a NJT train to Penn Station. Not so easy while having to schlep three checked bags and two small children! Crossing my fingers that there will be a direct train to NYP for us tomorrow...


----------



## Ryan

If you're lucky, they'll just run the train all the way through. No reason to terminate in WAS if they're running everything.

A heck of a lot of work done by those guys and gals.


----------



## JSmith

Ryan said:


> If you're lucky, they'll just run the train all the way through. No reason to terminate in WAS if they're running everything.
> 
> A heck of a lot of work done by those guys and gals.


My fingers won't cross hard enough to wish for that! I'm suppose it's possible they could restock as usual at WAS and have an electric locomotive ready (I assumed that was why they are terminating in Washington rather than Philadelphia). But I will be happy enough to dodge the commuter train scramble with the checked luggage.

I guess we'll see what happens in the morning. There's still plenty of hours left tonight for them to come up with the logistics of getting the train back on its regular run, I suppose!


----------



## afigg

MARC Rider said:


> I don't know about all of the states, but my state highway department (Maryland) seems to have enough funds on hand to build very substantial concrete "sound barriers" bordering all of the major urban and suburban interstate highways in our state. These barriers not only protect the surrounding communities from the noise of the traffic, but also make it a lot harder for people with bad intent to enter the highway right of way and throw rocks (or worse) at cars and trucks. So why can't they find a little money to do the same for railway rights of way? (I will say that I see that they are installing some new, sturdy looking fencing along the NEC right of way between New Carrolton (actually, the Capital Beltway) and Seabrook. I wonder, though, whether that particular fencing (open iron slats maybe 6-7 feet high) would be enough to stop rock throwers.


I suspect that Amtrak is paying for the fencing being installed along the NEC ROW through New Carrolton. MDOT (MD DOT) may or may not be providing some of the funding, but in general Amtrak is responsible for installing and maintaining the fencing along the portions of the NEC that it owns or controls. In general, the reason for the more robust iron slat fencing that has been installed along some portions of the NEC has been, AFAIK, is to keep people out in places where locals often cut holes in the chain link fences to take "shortcuts" across the tracks. Teenagers throwing rocks have become, to the best of my knowledge, much less of a problem on the NEC in recent decades.
Solid sound barriers could be an effective protection against both trespassers and rock throwers at some locations, but those sound walls are not inexpensive. I think Amtrak would look at the state and local governments to pay the full cost of putting up a sound barrier wall at or outside of the ROW if the local residents wanted to reduce the noise.

With regards to the SEPTA and Amtrak trains in Philly getting hit by something, it may be some time before the NTSB puts out a detailed reliable summary of what the trains were hit by - if they can ever tell - and where.


----------



## northnorthwest

What are the chances that Mike Nutter apologizes at some point? I thought it was really inappropriate for him to decide and publicly state that the only explanation for the engineer to go twice the speed was if he'd had a heart attack and essentially put all the blame on him before any investigation has taken place. From what I've read the engineer seems meticulous and very serious about his job.


----------



## FormerOBS

I have a feeling Mr. Nutter has been made aware that he stepped in it pretty deep, and he won't be making any more off-the-cuff accusatory comments until he knows he's on pretty solid ground. And he won't be apologizing until he knows for certain that the apology is deserved. So don't hold your breath.

That's strictly an opinion; I don't have my crystal ball handy.

Tom


----------



## VentureForth

A quick word about amnesia. About 10 years ago, I was living in Albuquerque. Coming home from work on Halloween on my way to get my kids ready for trick or treat, I was T-Boned by a guy who missed a stop sign that was obstructed by overgrowth. I remember calling my friend to let him know I wouldn't be making it that night. I don't remember anything else, yet I was fully conscious, just unaware. There were ambulances, police, fire trucks, and I was even able to give directions to my wife to find me. I was taken to the hospital where they took my blood, gave me CT scan and then apparently I wandered around the hospital (who told my wife I self discharged - they LOST me!). My next point of awareness was when the doctor was showing me photos of the wreck while I lay on a gurney in a hallway (I found myself and put myself back where I belonged).

I only tell this story to say that 10 years later, I still have no recollection of the accident. 4 hours of my life went missing that day, but if you had a conversation with me during that time, you wouldn't know it.

This engineer may never tender anything. May not have ever been knocked out, just some wires up there loosened. Totally plausible he could have even called 911 and never known it.


----------



## NETrainfan

So grateful for this forum- especially at a time like this. Thank you from a frequent NEC rider.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

From a Wire Service article I just read, 36 people boarded the firs train from PHL this morning; to me that seems low considering how busy the Corridor usually is. Perhaps someone more familiar with typical loads on the Corridor at different times of the day can elaborate.

Mayor Nutter was also on hand to see those pax off.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

OlympianHiawatha said:


> From a Wire Service article I just read, 36 people boarded the firs train from PHL this morning; to me that seems low considering how busy the Corridor usually is. Perhaps someone more familiar with typical loads on the Corridor at different times of the day can elaborate.
> 
> Mayor Nutter was also on hand to see those pax off.


I think originally they had said that service would be restored Tuesday, so a lot of people may not have realized the trains would be running this morning.


----------



## CHamilton

I heard from one of our members that 30th Street Station is a media circus today. 43 is boarding now and Business Class is getting priority boarding.


----------



## jis

BC and Selec+ and Select-E were getting priority boarding in Washington DC for a while. Good to see them institute that in Philly. I wonder if that trend will somehow percolate to New York and get the gate dragons of Boston on board too!


----------



## CHamilton

That was fast!

DOT chief: Amtrak installs automated braking system



> Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx said Monday that Amtrak has installed an automatic train control system that investigators have said could have prevented last week's deadly crash near Philadelphia.
> 
> The system, which is known as ATC, is used to monitor the speed of trains as they approach sections of tracks that contain curves.
> 
> Foxx said during an interview with MSNBC's "Morning Joe" that Amtrak has installed the automated system on tracks along its Northeast Corridor, which is home to both last Tuesday's crash and the company's busiest routes.
> 
> "We required Amtrak to install automatic train control, as well as to do inspections on the curves all along the northeast corridor," Foxx said. "They have done that very carefully and we're confident the service should resume this morning."
> 
> The Amtrak crash has touched off a debate in Congress about whether there should be more automation of trains in the U.S. Congress had set a 2015 deadline for the installation of a separate system called Positive Train Control that would utilize some of the ATC equipment to fully automate trains, but some lawmakers have moved to push the deadline back until 2020.
> 
> Foxx said Monday that Amtrak undertook "extraordinary measures" to get trains in the Northeast running again and to get the ATC braking system installed in the corridor.


----------



## guest

I heard on he radio from CBS News that BC use was pretty light today, with the suggested reason that passengers could be reluctant to be in the car right behind the engine. IMHO, give it a few months and most people will have forgotten about it.


----------



## John Bobinyec

You're right, of course, but the location within the train didn't have much to do with the most severely damaged car. It had everything to do with it catching a broadside from a stout catenary support, I believe.

jb


----------



## jis

They did not have to install any major new control or signaling system. They just had to tweak some control circuits so that the advanced signal before Shore interlocking signal shows Approach Medium as the most permissive signal instead of Clear (assuming Shore was Clear too) as it used to display before. The rest pretty much follows from that. This is a slightly different version of what Gene had suggested in a message in a different thread here too, with an unnecessarily provocative title.

So Foxx is seemingly claiming that it took much more work than it actually took. This is not to take away from the tremendous work done by the folks at Amtrak MOW. However, I suppose from Foxx's perspective it is best to get the maximum mileage that he can out of all this.



guest said:


> I heard on he radio from CBS News that BC use was pretty light today, with the suggested reason that passengers could be reluctant to be in the car right behind the engine. IMHO, give it a few months and most people will have forgotten about it.


Ironically, this could have happened to any car near the front of the train. Whichever got caught and entangled with a catenary pole at close to 100mph, would have been met with this fate. It just happens so that it was the first car and not the locomotive (which grazed the pole), or the second car etc. Also note that the second car had a huge gash punched through its roof by a different cat pole too.

Also, this should get people who insisted that American cars are so strong that they will withstand anything when compared to the German ICE cars, which had a bridge fall on them and got destroyed, a second thought about their untenable position. This is not to belittle the fact that the German cars then had some serious design defects too.


----------



## guest

I completely agree that it was just 'luck of the draw' that the BC car was the most damaged. If the loss of life had been caused by a rear end collision, people would be avoiding the last car in the consist.


----------



## mflsjhs

It looks like between the news coverage and riding along the NEC on the New Jersey Turnpike, that all the trains running today are powered by AEM-7's and no ACS-64's are running. Did anybody else notice this or see different?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

mflsjhs said:


> It looks like between the news coverage and riding along the NEC on the New Jersey Turnpike, that all the trains running today are powered by AEM-7's and no ACS-64's are running. Did anybody else notice this or see different?


The Amtrak train 170 that I saw at TRE this morning had ACS-64 no. 614, and when I got to PJC, I saw ACS-64 no. 625 leading a train southbound (was too far away to see if it was a regional or the Keystone).


----------



## chakk

Regarding amnesia from prior accidents, it's not just instances from a few years ago. My wife was "run down" by an overspeeding skier on a beginners run in California more than 25 years ago, in which she suffered a concussion and a shoulder separation. (The skier who hit her never stopped.) To this day, she still has no memory of the collision or events for several hours afterward.

So it is quite possible that the engineer of 188 may never remember the events for much of the time around the crash.


----------



## Zach

I'm on 174 right now and #607 is leading. However, the consist is reversed with BC at the rear of the train followed by the quiet car


----------



## NAVYBLUE

VentureForth said:


> A quick word about amnesia. About 10 years ago, I was living in Albuquerque. Coming home from work on Halloween on my way to get my kids ready for trick or treat, I was T-Boned by a guy who missed a stop sign that was obstructed by overgrowth. I remember calling my friend to let him know I wouldn't be making it that night. I don't remember anything else, yet I was fully conscious, just unaware. There were ambulances, police, fire trucks, and I was even able to give directions to my wife to find me. I was taken to the hospital where they took my blood, gave me CT scan and then apparently I wandered around the hospital (who told my wife I self discharged - they LOST me!). My next point of awareness was when the doctor was showing me photos of the wreck while I lay on a gurney in a hallway (I found myself and put myself back where I belonged).
> 
> I only tell this story to say that 10 years later, I still have no recollection of the accident. 4 hours of my life went missing that day, but if you had a conversation with me during that time, you wouldn't know it.
> 
> This engineer may never tender anything. May not have ever been knocked out, just some wires up there loosened. Totally plausible he could have even called 911 and never known it.


Thats why as a former Disability Claims Adjudicator, when someone was diagnosed with a TBI (traumatic brain injury), they went to medical hold for 90 days as we had to wait to see if they would stay the same, get better or get worse. Everyone reacted differently.

NAVYBLUE


----------



## jis

FBI says that the damage to the windshield of #601 was not caused by firearm.

http://6abc.com/news/sources-human-error-led-to-amtrak-train-derailment/729203/

The story about "human error" that they put out earlier has been withdrawn and replaced by a story involving "over speed and sudden brake application" being the cause of derailment. It is not clear what the source of the information quoted by ABC is, so I would for now treat it as random hearsay until they can suggest a more credible source for it.

A press conference is expected from the NTSB sometime later today.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Head injury discussions are becoming very prominent in the media and on line due to what's happening to athletes in all the sports, especially football, soccer and hockey!

I was hit by a speeding hit and run driver that ran a red light in 1977 that totaled my car, and remember seeing the car fixing to hit my drivers side door, then woke up in the hospital the next day 12 hours later and don't remember anything else about the accident 38 years later!


----------



## jis

So far apparently there is no evidence that has been uncovered that would suggest any projectile found its way into the cab. Until such is found, all physical head hitting presumably happened in course of the derailment, which in and of itself can leave very long lasting effects including amnesia. Questions regarding what caused the loss of situational awareness are still open and I am sure are being actively perused by the human factors folks in the NTSB investigation while they also explore other physical evidence too.

But I am sure we will get the latest from NTSB in the briefing that is reported to be coming up this evening.


----------



## JSmith

Silver Meteor #98 was originally planned to terminate in WAS but got the green light to follow its usual route all the way to NYP about 15 minutes outside of WAS.  Unfortunately my checked bags ended up getting detrained in WAS even though the SCA moved them to the new NYP pile. :-( I can't get too upset, everything was totally being decided last minute it seemed and I'm sure we weren't the only people affected by the confusion.

Things looked pretty quiet north of PHL: an excavator moving rail stock, some rail welding, a few Amtrak police cars. I expected to see more activity. I did see an ACS-64 locomotive in either PHL or TRE, I think. Very attractive engines. Nice to see the new Viewliner baggage cars in use as well.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Didn't they change to an ACS-64 in WAS for your train? And did y'all have a new Bag Car and Diner ( 8400) or were they Heritage Units?


----------



## JSmith

Is the ACS-64 the only model of electric engine in use now? I guess they did switch to one in WAS. I never got a good look at the full train, too busy inside with my kids.

The diner was the pink and green heritage car. I'm on 49 now and it was a heritage diner that I've never seen before. More of a dark blue color scheme I think with no "stars" lighting and instead of the open view of the kitchen there is a doorway in the center of the aisle. What's that diner called?


----------



## chakk

188 running on time this evening.


----------



## afigg

JSmith said:


> Is the ACS-64 the only model of electric engine in use now? I guess they did switch to one in WAS. I never got a good look at the full train, too busy inside with my kids.


No, as of May 1, there were 28 AEM-7 AC units still in revenue service (according to On-Track On-Line).


----------



## afigg

chakk said:


> 188 running on time this evening.


Given the amount of press coverage, I wonder if Amtrak should have or will change the train number? The airlines will do that after a fatal plane crash.


----------



## Glenn

FBI says damage to windshield was NOT from a bullet. So, much for the endless palaver about how it must be a 30.30 or 30.08 or a bazooka. If it was anything not a result of the crash it is going to be a rock. I'm sure the speculation will now turn to a conspiracy to cover up a gunshot in order to protect something or other...


----------



## Acela150

I read that an Amtrak conductor who was on the train is suing Amtrak.

I'll give you my two cents on this. The conductors are qualified on that territory. Why didn't any of them say "We're going to fast for this area" and pull a brake? These conductors, IMO are just as at fault as the engineer.


----------



## Bob Dylan

On second thought Steve, I know you're a railroader but as jis pointed out, there are reasons folks involved in situations such as this acquire lawyers, usually contractual and procedural!

Since thee are no Coach attendants on the Regionals and the Conductors are doing tickets etc after the station stops in Philly, I wonder if the Conductor could really be at fault?


----------



## jis

I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.

Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?

Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?


This is exactly why I would like to see the duties of railroading separated from revenue-ing. Have an operations conductor in the cab and a ticket punching, drunk-tossing conductor in the train. Could have saved Metrolink in Chatsworth.


----------



## cirdan

VentureForth said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly why I would like to see the duties of railroading separated from revenue-ing. Have an operations conductor in the cab and a ticket punching, drunk-tossing conductor in the train. Could have saved Metrolink in Chatsworth.
Click to expand...

As long as the thumbscrews are on Amtrak to cut costs, no matter the consequences, I don't see anybody approving the extra salary costs.


----------



## MARC Rider

chakk said:


> 188 running on time this evening.


I was on 188 last night (got off at Baltimore, as usual.)

Before we left, there was a guy in a suit who looked a lot like the picture of Joe Boardman in the Arrive Magazine walking down the aisle individually thanking each of us for riding,

The passenger load boarding in Washington was pretty light, but that might just be the usual light Monday crowd. I do know that there should be a good crowd on Thursday because when I went to make the reservation, it was the top $30 bucket. That's when I switch to business class to avoid the crowds, except that the BC fare on the regional was more than the BC fare on the Acela Express that leaves 10 minutes earlier, so I'm riding the Acela Express instead.


----------



## PRR 60

Putting the railroad back together for Monday's reopening was a huge undertaking. This article describes how the two new catenary and transmission support structures were ordered, detailed, fabricated and delivered in 50 hours.

PennFab


----------



## WoodyinNYC

PRR 60 said:


> Putting the railroad back together for Monday's reopening was a huge undertaking. Thus article describes how the two new catenary and transmission support structures were ordered, detailed, fabricated and delivered in 50 hours.
> 
> PennFab


Very nice article.

I'm proud of Amtrak and its contractors for their excellent work on this project.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks for sharing Bill, I agree Amtrak did a bang up job except for initial communication with passengers and the media!

Making a silk purse out of a pigs ear is an old saying but still true!


----------



## andersone

The PennFab article is awesome. It demonstrates the true spirit of our country and our ability to get things done right in a crunch.


----------



## neroden

Thanks for the PennFab article.


----------



## fairviewroad

afigg said:


> chakk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 188 running on time this evening.
> 
> 
> 
> Given the amount of press coverage, I wonder if Amtrak should have or will change the train number? The airlines will do that after a fatal plane crash.
Click to expand...

I was wondering that myself. I'm sure Amtrak could renumber the train without upsetting its numbering conventions too much. Who knows, maybe they'll change it when the next timetable comes out. That would make things a bit easier, logistically speaking. In the short term, I suspect that it's only a small minority of travelers who would "book away" from 188 due to the number. Railroad types care more about train numbers than the general public.

(Of course, you could make the same argument about flight numbers, with a handful of really high profile exceptions such as United 93, TWA 800, etc.)


----------



## Shack

Glenn said:


> FBI says damage to windshield was NOT from a bullet. So, much for the endless palaver about how it must be a 30.30 or 30.08 or a bazooka. If it was anything not a result of the crash it is going to be a rock. I'm sure the speculation will now turn to a conspiracy to cover up a gunshot in order to protect something or other...


As an NEC rider, I was glad to hear they ruled out a bullet, though a thrown/dropped/launched object of some sort remains in play as a possible contributing factor.

If it weren't for the other two trains hit by objects in close proximity and time, I would consider the whole "projectile" idea a conspiracy theory. Alas, the idea of deliberate vandalism (likely with unintended consequences) remains an open possibility.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> Putting the railroad back together for Monday's reopening was a huge undertaking. This article describes how the two new catenary and transmission support structures were ordered, detailed, fabricated and delivered in 50 hours.
> 
> PennFab


Absolutely amazing achievement by the Amtrak MOW and traction power folks, and their contractors! Hats off to them! Few people realize that Amtrak had the railroad for only 72 hours to repair and put it all back in service together with the signal code changes dictated by the FRA. The balance of the time the railroad was in NTSB's control when Amtrak could carry out very little reconstruction work.


----------



## N. Leon Cassady

To add my two cents to whether the conductor should have known where 188 was and how fast it was going:

I'd say a whole lot depends on the conductor. My extensive experience on the NEC is a lot like my experience in my extensive travels on the rest of Amtrak - which is to say that personal performance of personnel varies wildly from individual to individual. I've had some NEC conductors who in all likelihood would have had the situational awareness to know something was amiss, and some who seem to be walking zombies - with a chip on both shoulders!


----------



## Big Iron

jis said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Putting the railroad back together for Monday's reopening was a huge undertaking. This article describes how the two new catenary and transmission support structures were ordered, detailed, fabricated and delivered in 50 hours.
> 
> PennFab
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely amazing achievement by the Amtrak MOW and traction power folks, and their contractors! Hats off to them! Few people realize that Amtrak had the railroad for only 72 hours to repair and put it all back in service together with the signal code changes dictated by the FRA. The balance of the time the railroad was in NTSB's control when Amtrak could carry out very little reconstruction work.
Click to expand...

Very true. The speed at which operation was restored from carnage amazed me. One of the contractors assisting in the clean up is a RVR company called Cranemasters. They have an interesting website. http://www.cranemasters.com/


----------



## Big Iron

N. Leon Cassady said:


> To add my two cents to whether the conductor should have known where 188 was and how fast it was going:
> 
> I'd say a whole lot depends on the conductor. My extensive experience on the NEC is a lot like my experience in my extensive travels on the rest of Amtrak - which is to say that personal performance of personnel varies wildly from individual to individual. I've had some NEC conductors who in all likelihood would have had the situational awareness to know something was amiss, and some who seem to be walking zombies - with a chip on both shoulders!


I was riding 65 a few weeks ago. I was in the cafe for a stretch between WAS and RVR and the Conductor was speaking with a trainee. The Conductor was working very well with the trainee and I was impressed with his desire to truly help and educate. I distinctly remember him saying "you must know where you are at all times, day or night"


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.
> 
> Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you


Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.
> 
> Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you
> 
> 
> 
> Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.
Click to expand...


I've largely stayed out of this thread for obvious reasons, but here is the difference. How would you know? Didn't you just start...on a freight railroad to boot? Have you ever worked passenger service? This all sounds good, but have you ever worked on the NEC, with its high speeds, fast accelerating locomotives and (relatively) smooth tracks?

Just because you stare out of the window from the head end calling signals doesn't make you an expert. Do you have an eighty five hundred horsepower engine that can jump from 70mph to 110mph in less than a minute?

If you think you have it, meet me on the corridor. I'm going to put you in the back, but not staring at the window like a buff. I'll make sure that an engineer we call "no brakes" is running. The reason he's called that is he uses very little brake. He allows the curves, terrain and characteristics to slow his train as his (correct) motto is the less you do with the train, the better the ride and they should never feel you stop or start.

Then, I CHALLENGE you to tell if you can feel the difference between 60mph and 80mph or 80 and 100mph or if he entered a curve or slowed down for it.


----------



## John Bobinyec

How can anyone tell how fast the train is going without using a speedometer?

1. By the roughness of the ride. But that is confusing because moving at a high speed on good track might feel like moving at low speed on rough track.

2. By gut feel.

3. By the centrifigal force when going around a curve - oops - too late.

4. By timing mileposts. This is too hard to do in the dark. They can be obscured by other trains. You might just have missed one and then you'd have to catch the next two. Trouble is, you've already gone 2 miles by the time you figure out what the train's average speed is over that 2 miles.

5. Smart phone app, if it's available and allowed.

Not so easy.

jb


----------



## City of Miami

I often calculate the speed of the train I'm on with my watch (stopwatch function) and quarter mile posts - it only takes 2!



15 seconds between = 60 mph, for example.


----------



## bobnjulie

I'll chime in and say that the only conductor I know I met on another train. I saw him on his train and was doing a quick chat while he collected tickets and he was "Hold on." got his watch out and knew where we were and where we should be... at every mile.... My information may be wrong but they are supposed to know every mile and every bump and run the train while doing everything else and are tested all the time on their route. Tragedies happen and I'm waiting until all the information is out but I do know if this was a plane there would be zero survivors. As witnessed by the recent plane crash, having two pilots does not provide 100% safety - nor would having 2 engineers.


----------



## Thirdrail7

bobnjulie said:


> I'll chime in and say that the only conductor I know I met on another train. I saw him on his train and was doing a quick chat while he collected tickets and he was "Hold on." got his watch out and knew where we were and where we should be... at every mile.... My information may be wrong but they are supposed to know every mile and every bump and run the train while doing everything else and are tested all the time on their route. Tragedies happen and I'm waiting until all the information is out but I do know if this was a plane there would be zero survivors. As witnessed by the recent plane crash, having two pilots does not provide 100% safety - nor would having 2 engineers.



I'm not attempting to dispute whether or not the crew knew their location. What I am disputing is if they can readily tell the speed difference, particularly at night in an area where trains typically accelerate, especially while simultaneously performing other duties. I would also point out there are plenty of mileposts that aren't a true measured mile. Some "miles" may be 5000 ft, some are almost 6000 feet. That is why the timetable specifies where the measured miles are located so you may accurately test your speedometers.

Again, if you think you can, allow me to introduce you to Uncle Half Notch and guess how fast he's going. You'll look at your watch and think its broken. :blink:


----------



## Cina

Also if we're still speaking in context of the derailment, wasn't there something like 45 seconds between the time the train began accelerating to above the speed limit before the curve (which was 80ish? Or am I misremembering?) To the time it went into emergency while entering the curve? 45 seconds for the conductor to realize they were exceeding the speed limit approaching a curve and do something about it?


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.
> 
> Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you
> 
> 
> 
> Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.
Click to expand...

Sorry I have to say you are beyond your depth on this one and have no clue what you are talking about. And let us just leave it at that.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.
> 
> Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you
> 
> 
> 
> Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've largely stayed out of this thread for obvious reasons, but here is the difference. How would you know? Didn't you just start...on a freight railroad to boot? Have you ever worked passenger service? This all sounds good, but have you ever worked on the NEC, with its high speeds, fast accelerating locomotives and (relatively) smooth tracks?
> 
> Just because you stare out of the window from the head end calling signals doesn't make you an expert. Do you have an eighty five hundred horsepower engine that can jump from 70mph to 110mph in less than a minute?
> 
> If you think you have it, meet me on the corridor. I'm going to put you in the back, but not staring at the window like a buff. I'll make sure that an engineer we call "no brakes" is running. The reason he's called that is he uses very little brake. He allows the curves, terrain and characteristics to slow his train as his (correct) motto is the less you do with the train, the better the ride and they should never feel you stop or start.
> 
> Then, I CHALLENGE you to tell if you can feel the difference between 60mph and 80mph or 80 and 100mph or if he entered a curve or slowed down for it.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I have been doing qualifying runs on the keystone corridor and NEC the past two weeks. I've been on AEM-7's, ACS-64's, and an Acela set. I'm well aware of the acceleration rate and how smooth the trackage can be. It's wildly different then 2 GEVO's.

I have been on many many trains that go East through Frankford Junction. Even as a passenger I've grown to know where I am and the speeds the trains go, Acela, Regional, LD, etc. At all times of day and night in all kinds of weather.

But I will maintain that a good Conductor and Engineer should know where they are at all times. I think this is something that any railroad employee can agree on. I'm just curious as to why the Conductors didn't think that something was off. I understand that ticket scanning/collection and assisting passengers is part of the job. I'm not pointing a finger. (If it seems like that I apologize)


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.
> 
> Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?
> 
> Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you
> 
> 
> 
> Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry I have to say you are beyond your depth on this one and have no clue what you are talking about. And let us just leave it at that.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.


----------



## MIrailfan

A freight conductor knows where they are atall times. passenger conductor is with the passengers.


----------



## guest

Has the individual who asks if anyone has worked as a conductor on Amtrak done so themselves to be so condensending? Or is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black?


----------



## Thirdrail7

> Fair enough, I have been doing qualifying runs on the keystone corridor and NEC the past two weeks. I've been on AEM-7's, ACS-64's, and an Acela set. I'm well aware of the acceleration rate and how smooth the trackage can be. It's wildly different then 2 GEVO's.
> 
> I have been on many many trains that go East through Frankford Junction. Even as a passenger I've grown to know where I am and the speeds the trains go, Acela, Regional, LD, etc. At all times of day and night in all kinds of weather.
> 
> But I will maintain that a good Conductor and Engineer should know where they are at all times. I think this is something that any railroad employee can agree on. I'm just curious as to why the Conductors didn't think that something was off. I understand that ticket scanning/collection and assisting passengers is part of the job.


Once again, no one disputes that. What is being said is any train in that area accelerates. This includes Septa trains. Can you tell the difference between in speed? Where is the normal braking point for the curve? Are you aware that people run trains differently? How much time did that crew have together so the crew could even determine the engineer's style? Even if you think something is amiss, this happened in less time than it takes to make this post as Cirdan mentioned above. Again, just because you stared out the window of an ACS,AEM-7 or some type of equipment means zilch if you weren't performing other tasks.



> Acela150, on 19 May 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:'m not pointing a finger. (If it seems like that I apologize)




Is that a fact? Your previous post tells a different story;



Acela150 said:


> I read that an Amtrak conductor who was on the train is suing Amtrak.
> 
> *I'll give you my two cents on this. The conductors are qualified on that territory. Why didn't any of them say "We're going to fast for this area" and pull a brake? These conductors, IMO are just as at fault as the engineer. *



This definitely more than SEEMS like you're pointing a finger. You're pointing a whole hand and a foot...that is now in your mouth.

Do you even know where they found the conductor of this train? How much time did the rest of the crew have? Were they even qualified?

I kind of remember Ryan coming to your defense by saying (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is something to sit back on the internet and critique someones work ethic when they suggested that NS would wash you out because you're a foamer.

It looks like he was on to something...in more ways than one.


----------



## cirdan

John Bobinyec said:


> 1. By the roughness of the ride. But that is confusing because moving at a high speed on good track might feel like moving at low speed on rough track.


I disagree.

The roughness of poor track is totally different to the roughness caused by speed. I think somebody who is on the train every day very soon gets to know the difference.


----------



## caravanman

It is silly to expect any staff behind the engineer to be instantly aware of an increase in speed from 80 MPH, even if they are not engaged in other duties. It seems as if the speed increase and derailment happened within a minute or so?

Who here knows what the conductor was doing in that single minute... maybe in the john, maybe urgently making his way to a place where he could apply the brake? No one here knows.

Although a conductor will have knowledge of the tracks and signals, he is not expected to be looking out the window with his hand on the emergency brake every second of every minute, and walk the train, and deal with passengers, and, etc, etc...

I have been both an engine crew member and a guard here in the UK, and I know the reality of the job, not the fanciful idea that some "Superman" who can do 10 jobs all at the same time is your conductor.

Ed


----------



## jis

There is a very informative post by Out_Of_Service in the thread titled Q re NEC ATC on trainorders.com . It describes how before the latest signal changes were put in place expert engineers would proceed at full allowed speed (80 mph) all the way to Shore interlocking and then apply brakes to come down to 50/60 by the time they entered the curve. With the signal change, they will now be running at 45mph for two miles from the advanced signal to Shore, and then coast through the curve at 45 mph perhaps accelerating a bit to the speed limit. The signal aspect displayed at Shore is Clear. The signal aspect displayed at the advanced signal for Shore two miles away is Approach Medium (45mph).

For those without a subscription on trainorders, once the thread disappears from the front page you will not be able to get to it.


----------



## fairviewroad

caravanman said:


> Who here knows what the conductor was doing in that single minute... maybe in the john,


According to this article, that is the correct answer, at least for the head conductor.


----------



## caravanman

Ooops, that *was* a bit weird, I had no idea! I may have to start up as a paranormal detective on the side. 

Ed


----------



## jis

caravanman said:


> Ooops, that *was* a bit weird, I had no idea! I may have to start up as a paranormal detective on the side.
> 
> Ed


Well done Ed!


----------



## PRR 60

A chilling tale from a survivor of Train 188 with some not so kind things to say about Amtrak and Amtrak's response to the accident:

From Politico Magazine, May 19, 2015:



> I’ve spent much of my career helping with disasters, helping people and organizations at some of the worst times of their lives. I was always lucky enough not to need the help of people like me. That ended last week, after I boarded Amtrak Train 188. I’m now even more grateful for our first responders—police, fire, EMTs and hospital emergency rooms. And more convinced that Amtrak itself needs an overhaul.


Politico Magazine


----------



## City of Miami

He spent much too much ink tooting his own horn IMO, thereby invalidating himself. What exactly did he want Amtrak reps to do in addition to what was being done by everyone? Hand out packets of money?


----------



## TiBike

I think what he wanted Amtrak to do was what airlines do in similar circumstances: let the emergency services people do their job and then take care of the passengers and next of kin on the spot. Make sure they're OK for the night -- hotel rooms would be appropriate, for example -- and give them a clear path to putting everything in order in the morning. Don't just send them into an endless cycle of filling out forms and calling customer service call centers.

It sounds like there was no plan for this kind of event, and no Amtrak employee willing to take personal responsibility for acting until someone eventually put a plan together days later.

When I got Boardman's email about how they had set up a family assistance center within 24 hours, I thought it was odd. 24 hours is way to long to wait. They should have known what to do immediately and begin implementing it within 24 minutes. And that's a generous amount of time.

When something like this happens employees need to know what to do, and they need to take immediate responsibility for solving problems that aren't covered in the plans. Management failed by not having an adequate plan in place; the workforce failed by not taking the initiative. This was a disaster situation, not the waiting room at the DMV.


----------



## andersone

interesting read,,, Amtrak should hire him and let him set up a system,,,, I know what we have in place where I work and it is super sophisticated, but thankfully we have never had to use save for drills !!

I remember a plane crash in Sioux City Iowa where the response was awesome,,, it can be done it just takes planning (sarcasm font not found)


----------



## jis

After the Asiana Airlines crash in SFO initially Asiana had problems setting things up. Within hours United (their Star Alliance partner in US) took over responsibility from them and things went relatively smoothly thereafter. Notwithstanding that FAA fined Asiana and United AFAIR, for their inability to do the initial handling of customers properly. If Asiana did not manage to get United to take over customer handling they might have gotten into a situation like Amtrak found itself in and would have been in very deep doo doo with the FAA. I don't think FRA even has any guidelines on what to do about such things relative to the poor passengers, let alone Amtrak.

Again I could be completely wrong due to my own ignorance. But I have not found any indication to believe otherwise.


----------



## TiBike

Interesting. Here's the link to the DOT's statement on the fine:

http://www.dot.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-fines-asiana-airlines-not-adhering-family-assistance-plan

From the statement:



> For approximately one day following the crash, Asiana failed to widely publicize any telephone number for family members of those onboard, and the only number generally available to the public that family members could call was Asiana’s toll-free reservations line. Locating this phone number on Asiana’s website required significant effort. The reservations line did not include a separate menu option for calls related to the crash and callers were required to navigate through cumbersome automated menus before being connected to an Asiana employee.


I wonder if there are similar rules for trains?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Based on the above posts plus all the millions of articles, blogs,media reports and other threads here on AU plus other rail sites, the #188 Tragedy was well handled by the people aboard the train,crews and passengers, the PHL first reaponders and the NTSB and other Federal agencies!

The initial response by Amtrak Management was based on the Invisible Man Plan! ( I'm of the mind that they didn't have a plan for situations like this)

The follow up by the Amtrak Track Gangs and their contractors was magnificent!

Most of Amtrak's top management response initially seemed to consist of silence followed PR Spin, BS and Smoke and Mirrors boilerplate!

The Customer Service and Communications departments did a terrible job, some heads should roll in the executive suites @ Amtrak over these fiascos! YMMV


----------



## VentureForth

fairviewroad said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who here knows what the conductor was doing in that single minute... maybe in the john,
> 
> 
> 
> According to this article, that is the correct answer, at least for the head conductor.
Click to expand...

I opened that link, and I swear the article headline was that the head conductor felt a sudden *urge*.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Fair enough, I have been doing qualifying runs on the keystone corridor and NEC the past two weeks. I've been on AEM-7's, ACS-64's, and an Acela set. I'm well aware of the acceleration rate and how smooth the trackage can be. It's wildly different then 2 GEVO's.
> 
> I have been on many many trains that go East through Frankford Junction. Even as a passenger I've grown to know where I am and the speeds the trains go, Acela, Regional, LD, etc. At all times of day and night in all kinds of weather.
> 
> But I will maintain that a good Conductor and Engineer should know where they are at all times. I think this is something that any railroad employee can agree on. I'm just curious as to why the Conductors didn't think that something was off. I understand that ticket scanning/collection and assisting passengers is part of the job.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, no one disputes that. What is being said is any train in that area accelerates. This includes Septa trains. Can you tell the difference between in speed? Where is the normal braking point for the curve? Are you aware that people run trains differently? How much time did that crew have together so the crew could even determine the engineer's style? Even if you think something is amiss, this happened in less time than it takes to make this post as Cirdan mentioned above. Again, just because you stared out the window of an ACS,AEM-7 or some type of equipment means zilch if you weren't performing other tasks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150, on 19 May 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:'m not pointing a finger. (If it seems like that I apologize)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a fact? Your previous post tells a different story;
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read that an Amtrak conductor who was on the train is suing Amtrak.
> 
> *I'll give you my two cents on this. The conductors are qualified on that territory. Why didn't any of them say "We're going to fast for this area" and pull a brake? These conductors, IMO are just as at fault as the engineer. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This definitely more than SEEMS like you're pointing a finger. You're pointing a whole hand and a foot...that is now in your mouth.
> 
> Do you even know where they found the conductor of this train? How much time did the rest of the crew have? Were they even qualified?
> 
> I kind of remember Ryan coming to your defense by saying (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is something to sit back on the internet and critique someones work ethic when they suggested that NS would wash you out because you're a foamer.
> 
> It looks like he was on to something...in more ways than one.
Click to expand...

The one thing that is in that post is a question mark. You can call me a foamer, jerk, a**hole, whatever you want. I'm well aware that you have a tendency to attack other users on other forums on the internet. I'm not going to let you bother me. Why should I?


----------



## west point

Amtrak should have disaster plans and a book(s). These plans must be generalized for the various sections of each route. Believe that there was a delay from the Carolinian incident as well. The major airlines have books and books based of whatever location in the world an incident happens.

Who to notify, What happened, where, when, Who to notify. etc.

Also responsibility of each person who is involved in an incident.


----------



## trainman74

TiBike said:


> For approximately one day following the crash, Asiana failed to widely publicize any telephone number for family members of those onboard...
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if there are similar rules for trains?
Click to expand...

I don't think there are any formal rules, as others have said in this thread. Amtrak did have a phone number available within a couple of hours after the accident:


----------



## FormerOBS

There are so many possible variables in a train wreck that a single specific protocol would be impossible to devise and impossible to implement. You can't predict the extent of damage, location of damage in the train, location of the accident on the railroad, presence or absence of other traffic, numbers of passenger casualties, numbers of crew casualties, rank/authority of available crew members, presence or absence of fire, nearness of EMT/rescue services, nearness of trauma centers, and so many other variables that it boggles the imagination. In response to the Politico article, I commented that the article presumes that the five Amtrak crew members (at least two of whom were very seriously hurt) should have done more, and it points out that the Philadelphia First Responders did an excellent job when they arrived. This is, indeed, something that the people of Philadelphia should be proud of, but it merely reflects the fact that those emergency personnel are trained and equipped to deal with such events. That's why we have them. The five Amtrak crew members did receive some level of emergency training, but they cannot be trained and equipped in the same way that First Responders are, and it should be no surprise that they were not very effective in dealing with the masses of injuries and deaths among the 240+ passengers.

Afterwards, the author of the Politico piece complains that it was six hours before he was interviewed by an Amtrak representative. I'm sure everybody at Amtrak would be happy if they could interview everybody right away. In this case, there were over 240 passengers who were dispersed among at least four different hospitals and numerous other locations. I don't know how many authorized representatives Amtrak could muster on short notice, late at night. The author admits that his injuries were relatively minor, yet he is so self-absorbed that he has the gall to complain that he wasn't among the first. Frankly, I don't know whether Amtrak could have done better in the circumstances, but this man's biased first-person account doesn't convince me.

In defense of Amtrak employees (as opposed to Amtrak Managers), I have to ask whether you would feel making promises to accident victims if you knew your employer was actively punishing employees for infractions such as serving complimentary coffee during unauthorized hours.

I posted some of these points on the Politico site, but discovered that the people on that site were more interested in making general complaints about Amtrak than in addressing the issues actually discussed in the article. So much for discourse.

Tom


----------



## FormerOBS

Please forgive some grammatical errors in the previous post. The system would not accept my edits --- again.

Tom


----------



## Bob Dylan

Another excellent post from one who has actually been there!

Excellent point about separating those who do the actual work from the suits in Amtrak management who played the Invisible Man for too long!

And the self important jerk who did the Politico article should get hired by the TV Networks to join their "experts" cadre!!


----------



## TiBike

It's not the response of the onboard crew that's being questioned; they were victims of the accident like everyone else. It was the response by the rest of the organisation. I have no doubt management failed to plan adequately, but staff also failed to show initiative. The article describes people who were only willing to operate within their comfort zone: hand out forms, refer to a call center, fill out another form, call somewhere else. There's no indication anyone was taking responsibility for solving whatever problem was in front of them, just passing it on to someone else.

This didn't happen in the middle of the Nevada desert. It happened on Amtrak's busiest corridor, in one of the biggest cities it serves, a two hour drive from headquarters. The fact is, you can plan for emergencies. The Philadelphia first responders proved that. You can't give everyone a scripted procedure to follow -- it would be foolish to try. But there are common, basic elements you can anticipate, like making sure there's adequate food and shelter, dealing with lost luggage, making ongoing connections, following up on injuries. Standard operating procedures won't work -- as the article described -- so you have to have a way to deal with 240 people who have all of those issues all at once.

There has to be a plan and people willing and able to take responsibility for implementing it, knowing they'll have to take decisions they wouldn't under normal circumstances.


----------



## caravanman

Hmm, Head conductor... they call the rest rooms the "heads" on a ship... maybe he was in the correct place!

When I worked on British Rail... (yawn, yawn, here he goes again...) we had specific responsibilities in case of derailment, especially where an adjacent line was obstructed. The driver / engineer would go ahead and protect the adjacent tracks from oncoming trains, and the guard (your conductor) would go to the rear and protect there. We used detonators affixed to the rails, red flags and red lamps. Within an area controlled by electric signals, we had track circuit clips, which when attached across the rails, would turn signals to red. This was always our first priority, then deal with the accident itself...

I am going back over 30 years ago, so procedures may be quite different now, but back then it would be a railmans second nature to know what to do without thinking. Injuries were never mentioned in our training!

Ed


----------



## Guest

caravanman said:


> We used detonators affixed to the rails,


Yet another difference between US English and UK English. For us, a detonator would be an explosive charge.


----------



## John Bobinyec

Guest said:


> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We used detonators affixed to the rails,
> 
> 
> 
> Yet another difference between US English and UK English. For us, a detonator would be an explosive charge.
Click to expand...

Here we call the rail-top explosive charges - torpedoes.

jb


----------



## Ziv

Back in the 60's and 70's my father was a brakeman for Great Northern and then a conductor for Burlington Northern and they called them torpedos too. I always thought that that sounded illogical and detonators actually makes more sense, because that is what they do. Nothing like the equivalent of a cherry bomb going off under your locomotive to get your engineer's attention.



John Bobinyec said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> caravanman said:
> 
> 
> 
> We used detonators affixed to the rails,
> 
> 
> 
> Yet another difference between US English and UK English. For us, a detonator would be an explosive charge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here we call the rail-top explosive charges - torpedoes.
> 
> jb
Click to expand...


----------



## Ryan

By way of further explanation for our guest, small explosive charge is exactly what they are. Put them on the rail, and if a train runs over it, it goes off. Makes a big bang and tells the engineer "Hey, something's probably wrong here!".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway)


----------



## jis

The possible "something wrong" can be something as mundane as "the signal that you can't see in the pea soup fog is Red"


----------



## Guest

Ryan said:


> By way of further explanation for our guest, small explosive charge is exactly what they are. Put them on the rail, and if a train runs over it, it goes off. Makes a big bang and tells the engineer "Hey, something's probably wrong here!".
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway)


Oh, that isn't what I was envisioning. Thanks. I was, now incorrectly, thinking that it was something we would call a flare.

To me, a detonator would be something that would blow up the rail, severing it into pieces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-4_(explosive)


----------



## John Bobinyec

Guest said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> By way of further explanation for our guest, small explosive charge is exactly what they are. Put them on the rail, and if a train runs over it, it goes off. Makes a big bang and tells the engineer "Hey, something's probably wrong here!".
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway)
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, that isn't what I was envisioning. Thanks. I was, now incorrectly, thinking that it was something we would call a flare.
> 
> To me, a detonator would be something that would blow up the rail, severing it into pieces.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-4_(explosive)
Click to expand...

On this side of the pond, we call "flares", fusees.

jb


----------



## willem

Given how long it takes trains to stop, the conductor or engineer must have walked quite a way (several thousand feet?) before setting the torpedo. How was that distance specified? How was it measured?


----------



## jis

Bringing this thread back to its original subject matter.....

NTSB has set up a web page dedicated to this accident. All NTSB materials related to this accident will be accessible from this page. The page is:

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/2015_philadelphia_pa.aspx

The latest is that the investigation of the state of the signal system has been completed and it was found to be operating without any flaw. They are in the process of constructing a consolidated timeline. They are trying to verify that the Engineer did not use his phone while operating the train.


----------



## FormerOBS

We're getting off topic here. "Torpedo" used to be a more or less generic term for explosives in the common vernacular. Remember David Farragut's command at the Battle of Mobile Bay, "Damn the torpedoes; Full speed ahead!" He was talking about mines, not those long, skinny self-propelled things that were invented later. The term continued in use in the railroad industry, for a small explosive charge that could be clamped to a rail as a warning. It was loud enough to warn the train that hit it, but not powerful enough to damage the track structure. The noise was probably a bit louder than a shotgun, although I've never heard one myself. If a train was unexpectedly stopped (for an equipment failure, for example) the flagman would walk back a designated distance and place the torpedo as a warning to approaching trains. When it was removed, the flagman would drop a fusee (i.e., flare) before he returned to the caboose, so that a "timed" warning would remain in place long enough to let his train get clear.

Back to the accident:

The Amtrak representatives who contacted the victims might have done better, but I think their hesitation has to be kept in context. It seems that everybody loves Joe Boardman. As I've said before, I never got a strong enough impression of him to judge for certain, one way or another. I've heard some very good things about him. But I'm concerned about the fact that he is the man in charge, and Amtrak personnel don't feel comfortable taking risks in the current climate. Does this climate originate with him, or does it originate with Management personnel at a lower level? I don't know. But it does not surprise me at all that Amtrak representatives were very cautious about making promises about what Amtrak would do for the victims of this tragedy. Would they be held accountable, and possibly fired, if some manager decided they had exceeded their poorly defined authority? If the company is likely to punish initiative, why would you want to show initiative? Maybe some kind of more comprehensive disaster plan could address this. My point above is that no disaster plan can address everything.

Tom

P.S. Hooray! It looks like it accepted my edits this time!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

jis said:


> They are trying to verify that the Engineer did not use his phone while operating the train.


If it turns out he did, he should be facing down 8 counts of Man 1, hopefully with the sentences to run Consec and not Concurrent. There is no reason a cell phone should even be in the cab of an active engine.


----------



## Ryan

Yes there is, each engineer carries a company issued phone to be used in case of emergency, to be stored in their bags, shut off unless needed.

I'm not sure we need to be delving in the hypothetical charges and sentences at this point.


----------



## jis

It is completely normal for the investigators to record what use was made of cell phones and verify that none of the use was an inappropriate one while operating a train. That is all that NTSB is doing. There is absolutely no implication that the Engineer used the cell phone improperly. According to his own testimony after the crash when he came around he pulled the phone out of his bag, turned it on and called 911.

So please let us not go off the deep end on what should be done if some hypothetical happened. That is some what inappropriate at this point IMHO.

As Ryan said, it is an operational requirement to have the company issued cell phone in the cab, but turned off and stored away, for use only in emergencies, so to state that "there is no reason a cell phone should even be in the cab...." is just based on a lack of understanding of normal operating protocols.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan and jis nailed it re the cell phone question.

Since the Conductor mentioned that they heard the comments over the radio from engineers about their train being struck by projectiles, I wonder if this was considered an emergency so the Company Cell phones could be used to call this in to 911 or would the Dispatcher(s) or Conductors do this?

Also, are there tapes of such radio transmissions, along with cell phone records, that are available for the investigations??


----------



## jis

jimhudson said:


> Ryan and jis nailed it re the cell phone question.
> 
> Since the Conductor mentioned that they heard the comments over the radio from engineers about their train being struck by projectiles, I wonder if this was considered an emergency so the Company Cell phones could be used to call this in to 911 or would the Dispatcher(s) or Conductors do this?
> 
> Also, are there tapes of such radio transmissions, along with cell phone records, that are available for the investigations??


My understanding is that the telephone is never to be used while a train is in motion. In motion one is only allowed to use the radio. However, I have not seen the actual rule and its fine prints, so I could be wrong.

Radio transmission should be available in recorded form (if they are treated at the same level of importance as Air Traffic Control Comms) but probably not all telephone conversations, except perhaps via NSA  OTOH, conversation with dispatcher may be available even via telephone. Not sure.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150, on 19 May 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:'m not pointing a finger. (If it seems like that I apologize)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a fact? Your previous post tells a different story;
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read that an Amtrak conductor who was on the train is suing Amtrak.
> 
> *I'll give you my two cents on this. The conductors are qualified on that territory. Why didn't any of them say "We're going to fast for this area" and pull a brake? These conductors, IMO are just as at fault as the engineer. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This definitely more than SEEMS like you're pointing a finger. You're pointing a whole hand and a foot...that is now in your mouth.
> 
> Do you even know where they found the conductor of this train? How much time did the rest of the crew have? Were they even qualified?
> 
> I kind of remember Ryan coming to your defense by saying (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is something to sit back on the internet and critique someones work ethic when they suggested that NS would wash you out because you're a foamer.
> 
> It looks like he was on to something...in more ways than one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The one thing that is in that post is a question mark. You can call me a foamer, jerk, a**hole, whatever you want. I'm well aware that you have a tendency to attack other users on other forums on the internet. I'm not going to let you bother me. Why should I?
Click to expand...

Actually, you saying and I quote "These conductors, IMO are just as at fault as the engineer." is a statement. It is not a question. You placed blame.

As for me calling you a foamer, jerk or anything, those were the words are not mine. A guest lobbed those words at you and Ryan mentioned that (paraphrasing here) that it something to attack someones work ethic on the internet. In my opinion, this is exactly what you've done. Most people with inside already knew where crumbled conductor was found but won't say or address anything that has already been stated publicly, So, it is cringe worthy to watch you make a statement assessing blame without even knowing the location of the crew or their level of qualification.

As for my alleged tendency to attack on other internet forums, I merely ask people to substantiate their posts. It is a way of learning and a way of educating. People that tend to be able to validate their positions or are open to different viewpoints usually are appreciate it. I've notice that people that can not, often say they are being "attacked."

That being said, I won't address it again, particularly since a bunch of other members pointed out the flaws in your position including one who summarily dismissed by saying you're above your depth. My intent was not to get you "bothered'" because if there is one thing I've learned from these forums it is you can't shame the shameless.


----------



## caravanman

Just to reply to the question asked about distances, (and this is my final off topic post today!)...

A detonator is a small flat cylinder, placed onto the rail and clipped into place. When a train runs over it, the force of the wheel causes the detonator to explode, creating a very loud and distinctive sound which the Driver of the train should immediately identify as being a detonator, stop his train and investigate the situation. The purpose of this is to warn of danger; detonators form part of what is known as 'Emergency Protection' which on the railway refers to the method of trying to prevent any approaching trains from colliding with or becoming involved in an emergency situation which has already taken place, primarily but not exclusively a train accident. 

I have been in the cab of a loco when running over a detonator, and it was just like a giant had thumped a warning on the underside of the loco.

After first laying track circuit operating clips where applicable, a member of staff 'protecting the line' will place detonators at a set distance (1 1/4 miles from the obstruction, placing three detonators 20 yards apart on each obstructed line) as a warning to any train which may already be approaching before a Signalman can stop all traffic. Detonators are carried on all trains, in cabs and other crew areas such as the Guards' office on an HST, in packs of 10. They are dated and must be checked and replaced every so often.

Detonators were also used by fogsignalmen, rail workers who would stand at the foot of specific signals in foggy weather and place a detonator when the signal was showing caution/danger. Some signals had special small huts and even detonator placers. Fog signalling is now also extinct - a colour light signal is bright enough to be seen and if the signal has AWS that gives another warning. Also with less use of coal fires we don't have the sort of "pea souper" fogs that affected the London area in particular fifty or more years back. There are several accident reports that describe conditions where someone standing at the foot of the signal literally could not see the signal arm. 

Ed.


----------



## neroden

FormerOBS said:


> But I'm concerned about the fact that he is the man in charge, and Amtrak personnel don't feel comfortable taking risks in the current climate.


I think that's just railroading. The climate of railroading is an extreme anti-risk-taking climate, has been for over 100 years. It's to the point where what would be considered ordinary customer service in most industries is considered risky departure from protocol in railroading. But it's not new -- it's been true since at least the 1900s.


----------



## Thirdrail7

to make sure everyone is warm and fuzzy, I will note that this is not an attack.



Ryan said:


> Yes there is, each engineer carries a company issued phone to be used in case of emergency, to be stored in their bags, shut off unless needed.
> 
> I'm not sure we need to be delving in the hypothetical charges and sentences at this point.





jis said:


> It is completely normal for the investigators to record what use was made of cell phones and verify that none of the use was an inappropriate one while operating a train. That is all that NTSB is doing. There is absolutely no implication that the Engineer used the cell phone improperly. According to his own testimony after the crash when he came around he pulled the phone out of his bag, turned it on and called 911.
> 
> So please let us not go off the deep end on what should be done if some hypothetical happened. That is some what inappropriate at this point IMHO.
> 
> As Ryan said, it is an operational requirement to have the company issued cell phone in the cab, but turned off and stored away, for use only in emergencies, so to state that "there is no reason a cell phone should even be in the cab...." is just based on a lack of understanding of normal operating protocols.





jimhudson said:


> Ryan and jis nailed it re the cell phone question.
> 
> Since the Conductor mentioned that they heard the comments over the radio from engineers about their train being struck by projectiles, I wonder if this was considered an emergency so the Company Cell phones could be used to call this in to 911 or would the Dispatcher(s) or Conductors do this?
> 
> Also, are there tapes of such radio transmissions, along with cell phone records, that are available for the investigations??



Amtrak's rule on electronic devices is more restrictive than the federal requirements. In general, engineers are not issued company cell phones. Assistant conductors are not issued company cells. In general, road conductors on regular assignments are issued company cell phones. Now, some of those scanners double as cell phones, but there are strict limits on when, where and how they are operated. In an emergency (which has an established criteria), you may use your personal cell phone.



jis said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan and jis nailed it re the cell phone question.
> 
> Since the Conductor mentioned that they heard the comments over the radio from engineers about their train being struck by projectiles, I wonder if this was considered an emergency so the Company Cell phones could be used to call this in to 911 or would the Dispatcher(s) or Conductors do this?
> 
> Also, are there tapes of such radio transmissions, along with cell phone records, that are available for the investigations??
> 
> 
> 
> *My understanding is that the telephone is never to be used while a train is in motion. In motion one is only allowed to use the radio. However, I have not seen the actual rule and its fine prints, so I could be wrong.*_[/i_
> 
> _ _
> 
> _Radio transmission should be available in recorded form (if they are treated at the same level of importance as Air Traffic Control Comms) but probably not all telephone conversations, except perhaps via NSA _  _ OTOH, conversation with dispatcher may be available even via telephone. Not sure._
> 
> _ _
Click to expand...

_ _

_ _

_For your entertainment, Jis:_

_ _

_b. Railroad-Supplied Electronic Devices_
_An employee may use a railroad-supplied electronic device only for an authorized_
_business purpose as prescribed below._
_1. Authorized Business Purposes: Subject to the Restrictions below, the following_
_are authorized business purposes for railroad-supplied electronic devices by_
_an employee who is not controlling a moving train or track car:_
_*(a) Emergencies: Use is authorized for voice communication to respond to or*_
_*coordinate an emergency situation involving the operation of the railroad or to*_
_*respond to an emergency encountered while on-duty.*_
_(b) Assigned Tasks Directly Related to Duties: Use is authorized for revenue_
_related functions, delay reporting, mechanical defect troubleshooting and_
_reporting, roadway maintenance work, passenger service requests, and numerical_
_calculations._
_© Radio Communication Failure: Use is authorized for voice communication:_
_(1) To perform duties directly related to the operation of the train or track car_
_when radio communication has failed; or_
_(2) To perform duties directly related to the operation of the railroad when the_
_railroad is not required by Federal regulation to provide a working radio._
_When the railroad is not required by Federal regulation to provide a working_
_radio, an employee may use a railroad-supplied electronic device for assigned_
_duties after a safety briefing, provided all employees responsible for the_
_movement of the train or track car agree that it is safe to do so._
_(d) Supplemental Reference Materials: The use of digital and display functions_
_of an electronic device is authorized as a supplemental means to refer to a_
_railroad rule, special instruction, timetable, or other directive._
_(e) Documentation of a Safety Hazard: Use is authorized for still photograph_
_documentation of a safety hazard or a violation of a rail safety law, regulation,_
_order, or standard provided the device is turned off immediately after the_
_documentation has been made, unless its use is otherwise permitted._
_*2. Restrictions*_
_*(a) Use in Locomotive Cab or Control Compartment*_
_*(1) Use of a railroad-supplied electronic device for an authorized business*_
_*purpose by an employee controlling the movement of a train or track car*_
_*is prohibited:*_
_*i. When the train or track car is moving,*_
_*ii. When any employee is assisting in the preparation of the equipment for*_
_*movement, or*_
_*iii. When any train crew member is on the ground, or riding rolling equipment*_
_*during a switching operation.*_

_ _

_Since an engineer typically wouldn't have a company cell phone, the rules allowing personal cell phone use apply but are subject to this special instruction on the NEC:_

_ _

_*716-S1. USE OF PERSONAL ELECTRONIC DEVICES: RESTRICTIONS*_
_*In the application of Rule 716, a personal electronic device must not be used when*_
_*a railroad radio or a railroad-supplied electronic device is available.*_

_ _

_It your radio works, that is supposed to be the primary method of communication._


----------



## jis

Thank you. I think we were all more or less on the right track (except of course where we were not  ).


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> Thank you.


Seconded.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> Seconded.
Click to expand...

Ditto!


----------



## KmH

Are the news media, this far from the derailment, still so uniformed that they show a photo of a train Conductor while doing a story about the Engineer's cell phone usage the day of the derailment?

Or did they use a photo of an Amtrak Conductor because his hat has the Amtrak logo on it?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-derailment-was-the-train-engineer-texting/vi-BBk4jeG


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KmH said:


> Are the news media, this far from the derailment, still so uniformed that they show a photo of a train Conductor while doing a story about the Engineer's cell phone usage the day of the derailment?
> 
> Or did they use a photo of an Amtrak Conductor because his hat has the Amtrak logo on it?
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-derailment-was-the-train-engineer-texting/vi-BBk4jeG


I believe he was a conductor before he was an engineer and the clueless media probably don't even realize that is a pic from his conductor days


----------



## fairviewroad

KmH said:


> Are the news media, this far from the derailment, still so uniformed that they show a photo of a train Conductor while doing a story about the Engineer's cell phone usage the day of the derailment?
> 
> Or did they use a photo of an Amtrak Conductor because his hat has the Amtrak logo on it?
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-derailment-was-the-train-engineer-texting/vi-BBk4jeG


They didn't use a photo "of an Amtrak conductor." They used a photo of the _specific_ _individual_ who was the Engineer of the train. That photo is one of the few publicly circulating photos of him. That is what he happened to be wearing on the day the photo was taken. I don't see the problem, honestly.


----------



## Gene Poon

This concerns the emergency order in which the FRA required
Amtrak to impose a 50mph speed limit on the curve in
Philadelphia where the deadly wreck of Amtrak
Train 188(12) occurred, to implement Automatic Train
Control at that location, to survey its entire Northeast
Corridor for more such locations where additional speed
limitations and enforcement will be required, and to
install speed warning and advisory signage on the Northeast
Corridor.

==============================================

FRA Emergency Order No. 31

WASHINGTON – The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) today issued
an Emergency Order that will assist in controlling passenger train
speeds at certain locations on the Northeast Corridor (NEC). Today’s
order is the latest in a series of actions the FRA has taken in the
wake of last week’s derailment of Amtrak Train #188.

FRA also announced today its intention to take additional actions in
the coming days to address potential speed issues on all other
passenger corridors.

Last Saturday, FRA instructed Amtrak to immediately take several
actions to improve safety along the NEC. As stated in that weekend
announcement, today’s Emergency Order formalizes those instructions.

“Although we do not yet know what caused the derailment of Amtrak
Train #188, the information we do have underscores the need to
continue to do all we can to further promote safety along the
Northeast Corridor,” said U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx.
“Today’s action will help prevent similar incidents from occurring on
the NEC until Amtrak completes its installation of Positive Train
Control later this year.”

The Emergency Order requires Amtrak to take a series of steps to
improve safety along the Northeast Corridor, including implementing
Automatic Train Control (ATC) code changes and modifications,
adopting other safety procedures at several curve locations with
significant speed reductions, and submitting an action plan to FRA
outlining additional steps.

FRA will take additional steps in the coming days and weeks to ensure
other corridors are addressing potential over-speed issues as well.

“The Northeast Corridor is the busiest rail corridor in the country,
and the steps we have ordered Amtrak to take will immediately improve
safety on this busy corridor,” said Acting Federal Railroad
Administrator Sarah Feinberg. “But in the days and weeks to come, we
will also do more – while FRA will continue to push Amtrak and other
commuter lines to achieve full implementation of Positive Train
Control, we will also work with them in the short term to immediately
address potential over-speed issues.”

The Emergency Order requires Amtrak to immediately implement a code
change to its ATC system near the Frankford Junction curve in
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The change must enforce the passenger
train speed limit of 50 mph, or lower, for northbound trains
approaching the curve. Amtrak implemented this change prior to the
restart of service on Monday.

In addition, Amtrak must survey the NEC to identify each main track
curve where there is a reduction of more than 20 mph from the maximum
authorized approach speed to that curve for passenger trains, and
provide a list of each location to the FRA.

Following Amtrak’s identification of the curves referenced above,
Amtrak must develop and submit an action plan to FRA that
accomplishes each of the following:

Identify appropriate modifications to Amtrak’s existing ATC system or
other signal systems (or alternative operational changes) to enable
warning and enforcement of applicable passenger train speeds at
identified curves.

Target dates for implementing each identified modification to
Amtrak’s existing ATC system or other signal systems (or alternative
operational changes) to enable warning and enforcement of passenger
train speeds at the identified curves.

Amtrak must submit the action plan to the FRA within 20 days of the
date of the Emergency Order.

In addition, Amtrak must begin to install additional wayside signage
alerting engineers and conductors of the maximum authorized passenger
train speed throughout its Northeast Corridor system no later than 30
days after the date of the order.


----------



## Ryan

Around here we usually cite our sources, Gene.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L16390


----------



## MIrailfan

engineers not at fault ican feel it.


----------



## yarrow

Ryan said:


> Around here we usually cite our sources, Gene.
> 
> http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L16390


what a snide and totally characteristic comment from you, ryan. gene poon has, imho, the most accurate info on amtrak around. i suppose the idea of showing a little respect is lost on you


----------



## John Bobinyec

yarrow said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Around here we usually cite our sources, Gene.
> 
> http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L16390
> 
> 
> 
> what a snide and totally characteristic comment from you, ryan. gene poon has, imho, the most accurate info on amtrak around. i suppose the idea of showing a little respect is lost on you
Click to expand...

On the other hand, if they know each other and are friends, then I would characterize the remark as terse and informative, instead of snide.

We can't tell the tone of the comment just by reading it.

jb


----------



## jis

Just out of curiosity I have been reading a few freight accident reports, specifically collisions caused by overspeeding with two crew members in the cab. Unfortunately these are not very uncommon. This one caught my attention:

http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAR1402.pdf

In summary, Engineer blanked out, yet continued to call out signals following the Conductor's call. In dark night the Conductor could not judge speed past an Approach signal. The Engineer told him it was 30 something and he believed it sitting in the cab while they were actually doing 50 something. There is no reason at all to believe that the Conductor was not a conscientious person doing his job the best he could. I mention this example apropos the spat that we had about "every Conductor knowing their precise location and speed at all times". Such may be the ideal, but it is not achievable in reality for various reasons, even when the Conductor is at no fault while sitting in the cab. Also a case where the Conductor finally realized there was something amiss and hit the emergency, but it was too late and made little difference to the outcome. This is a poster child for why PTC is necessary even after you put two or even 16 people in the cab.


----------



## chakk

I have overhead conductors on the CZ attempt to use cell phones to contact the UP Omaha dispatcher when the engineer notified the conductor that s/he was unable to reach the dispatcher through the regular train radio. This seems to be a regular occurance in Ruby Canyon, CO/UT.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Two years ago when I rode the Empire Builder #8 Eastbound, the exhaust fans went out in the Cascade tunnel and we had to wait on the West side for 3 hours while a crew fixed them!

The Conductor told us that they didnt have any radio contact with the duspatcher so he climbed up to Highway 2 ( pretty steep embankment) in order to use his Cell phone , no-one aboard had any service on their devices.

We were allowed a smoke and fresh air break on the ROW for a couple of hours!

Once it was dark we had to reboard!


----------



## FormerOBS

Kind of confused here, Jim. No. 8 is eastbound.

Tom


----------



## Bob Dylan

FormerOBS said:


> Kind of confused here, Jim. No. 8 is eastbound.
> 
> Tom


Oops, Senior moment! Corrected in OP, thanks Tom!


----------



## KmH

AmtrakBlue said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are the news media, this far from the derailment, still so uniformed that they show a photo of a train Conductor while doing a story about the Engineer's cell phone usage the day of the derailment?
> 
> Or did they use a photo of an Amtrak Conductor because his hat has the Amtrak logo on it?
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-derailment-was-the-train-engineer-texting/vi-BBk4jeG
> 
> 
> 
> I believe he was a conductor before he was an engineer and the clueless media probably don't even realize that is a pic from his conductor days
Click to expand...

Ah! That explains it. Thanks.


----------



## VentureForth

KmH said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KmH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are the news media, this far from the derailment, still so uniformed that they show a photo of a train Conductor while doing a story about the Engineer's cell phone usage the day of the derailment?
> 
> Or did they use a photo of an Amtrak Conductor because his hat has the Amtrak logo on it?
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/amtrak-derailment-was-the-train-engineer-texting/vi-BBk4jeG
> 
> 
> 
> I believe he was a conductor before he was an engineer and the clueless media probably don't even realize that is a pic from his conductor days
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah! That explains it. Thanks.
Click to expand...

No need to continue to bash the media. The first place I saw the picture properly captioned it as an old photo of him as a conductor. On Fox,iirc...
Most engineers outside the NEC don't even wear a uniform, fwiw.


----------



## jis

Engineers wear uniform on the NEC? Really?


----------



## Ryan

Their uniform seems to consist of jeans and a polo shirt of some type.


----------



## afigg

There was a hearing held today by the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure on the #188 crash and railroad safety. In advance of Boardman's statement, Amtrak issued a news release on the plan to complete deployment of PTC on the NEC: Amtrak: Committed To Safety, Implementation Of Positive Train Control By End Of 2015. I expect there will be updates from the NTSB on the investigation, have not checked the news reports yet.

Content of news release:



> WASHINGTON – “Safety must continue to be our highest priority,” Amtrak President & CEO Joe Boardman told the U.S. House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure in his submitted testimony today.
> 
> In his written testimony, Boardman noted that the safety systems along the Northeast Corridor (NEC) are the best in the country. Prior to last month’s train derailment at Frankford Junction, Amtrak’s last fatal passenger accident on the NEC from a derailment or collision occurred 28 years ago, and since then, Amtrak trains have safely carried millions of passengers. “In no other place is a comparable volume of traffic moved with such a solid record. In addition to a thorough training, oversight and coaching system for our crews, we have a layered signal system that provides trains with multiple levels of protection,” said Boardman.
> 
> He explained that Amtrak’s Positive Train Control (PTC) system is in service from New Haven, Conn. to Boston, and at points between Washington, D.C. and New York where trains exceed 125mph. PTC has been installed on the rest of the Amtrak owned and operated NEC, and is scheduled to be operational by the Federal deadline of December 31, 2015.


----------



## jis

Here you go....

NTSB report: No equipment issue on Amtrak crash


----------



## dlagrua

My theory was that human error, carelessness or whatever was the cause of the derailment. Yes I could be wrong but how many causes could there be? The tracks and locomotive were determined to be in good operable condition. The only other cause that I can think of is that a renegade hacker took control of the train operation system and deliberately crashed it. Last week there was a guy aboard an aircraft that was able to hack into the navigation system on the plane with his laptop. Could this be possible on an Amtrak locomotive? I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .


----------



## George K

dlagrua said:


> I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .


I can log into my cell phone account and see what all of my phone lines (I have 4 daughters) did _yesterday_. I have no reason to suspect that the engineer was inattentive, yet. But I don't buy the NTSB explanation that they are still waiting to retrieve data.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The NTSB is very deliberate,meticulous and secretive in their methods of investigation!

They sometimes take a year to finish their investigations and issue their final report about tragic transportation incidents!

So they won't be rushing to judgment or playing PR Games like the Media,Politicians and Internet "experts" have shamefully done!


----------



## George K

Agreed, Jim. Whether they have made a determination as to the cause, and whether they are ready to disclose that determination are two very different things. It's a good thing that they won't comment until all the data are reviewed (frankly, I'm surprised that they've said as much as they have - "no bullet", etc).

I'm just commenting that they already have the engineer's cellphone records. To deny that inspires, in me, at least, distrust.


----------



## CHamilton

Some useful info in this, despite the sad-but-unfortunately-true headline.

Parties point fingers on deadly Amtrak crash


----------



## John Bobinyec

Everyday we trust that drivers of motor vehicles will stay in their lane, stop at stop signs and at stop lights, etc... And so it is with engineers. It really doesn't matter whether he was using his cell phone, or failed to operate the train properly or failed to stop the train if the locomotive went wild, or he went into a daze or had some sort of mental lapse, etc... All those things could happen again tomorrow to any other engineer running trains here. The only thing that will prevent such incidents in the future, whatever their cause, is PTC.

jb


----------



## FormerOBS

In an NTSB investigation, everything is examined. This includes the crew, all equipment, radios, telephones, track structure, power systems, and anything else involved in the accident. The fact that they investigate any of these single items (such as the engineer's telephone, for example) does not necessarily mean that they suspect the item was a causative factor. NTSB typically takes a year or so to investigate and return their findings on a serious accident, and I believe their findings are not allowed as evidence in subsequent litigation.

I believe it is not possible for someone to remotely access the locomotive's controls and cause the train to speed up. When Positive Train Control (PTC) is in force, the system can INTERFERE WITH the engineer's ability to speed up or continue, but it cannot cause the system to speed up. I guess the best way to visualize it is to think of the engine's operation as a water hose. The engineer controls the flow of water. If he exceeds the designated water flow, the PTC steps in with an axe to cut the hose. The axe can't increase the water flow, but it can surely prevent the water from reaching the nozzle.

If somebody thinks he can contradict this, I'm willing to listen.

Tom


----------



## jis

Tom, you are correct.


----------



## Thirdrail7

dlagrua said:


> My theory was that human error, carelessness or whatever was the cause of the derailment. Yes I could be wrong but how many causes could there be? The tracks and locomotive were determined to be in good operable condition. The only other cause that I can think of is that a renegade hacker took control of the train operation system and deliberately crashed it. Last week there was a guy aboard an aircraft that was able to hack into the navigation system on the plane with his laptop. Could this be possible on an Amtrak locomotive? I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .





FormerOBS said:


> I believe it is not possible for someone to remotely access the locomotive's controls and cause the train to speed up.


While I tend to agree with FormerOBS that is extremely probable that such actions are not possible, I'm not comfortable ruling it out. Remember, this isn't your Grandfather's locomotive. This unit is nothing more than a computerized rolling substation. Those aren't valves with compressed air running under that control panel. They are digital inputs and most things send a command to a computer to execute the action.

Computers can be hacked, overridden or make errors.

Again, I think it is not probable but to deny that fact is unrealistic.


----------



## the_traveler

dlagrua said:


> My theory was that human error, carelessness or whatever was the cause of the derailment. Yes I could be wrong but how many causes could there be? ... I also find it odd that the NTSB is taking so long to arrive at the conclusion of its investigation .


When the NTSB investigates an airline crash, the final report takes a year or so!


----------



## FormerOBS

Third rail:

Do you know that the throttle sends its commands to the traction motors via a (hackable) computer? I can't say definitively, but I question that.

Tom


----------



## GG-1

Aloha

Something I have wondered about in this acident. Something caused the train to accelerate. Will take time and skill to find out that cause. What I am wondering is, would it have been better for the train to have continued at the high rate of speed rather than going into emegency stop? In driving a car applying the brakes in the curve, rather than before or after can be a disaster. With so much weight would this also be true. I understand I am not knowlegable in train dynamics.


----------



## Thirdrail7

FormerOBS said:


> Third rail:
> 
> Do you know that the throttle sends its commands to the traction motors via a (hackable) computer? I can't say definitively, but I question that.
> 
> Tom



Whether it is hackable or not is above my knowledge, but all throttle commands go through the CCU which sends electrical signals to the TCU which has a computer control to drive the motors and allow for regenerative braking.

I'm not going to post it here, but there is a video that shows the underside of the control panel. Take a look at it and you'll notice that you're not looking at air valves under there. You're not even looking at the typical harness of wires found in previous electrics. The vast majority of commands are sent electrically.

Surely, you remember how much trouble they had with the horn when these first came out. it wasn't a modification to the air system that fixed it. It was a modification to the software that controlled the horn settings.

When these engines break down, they don't come with wrenches or plugs to get them back on the beam. They come with a laptop. :help:


----------



## cirdan

Obviously we cannot totally rule out that somebody could have hacked the locomotive's software.

The software is designed to be updated as required to correct errors or add new features. Normally new software versions are not installed until after extensive and documented testing and evaluation followed by a multi-tier approval.

However, for somebody to maliciously change the software, they would probably have had to gain access to the computer system. Normally a software update is performed by attaching a laptop to the locomotive using a dedicated interface and installing the software from there. I don't know what protection (passwords etc) is in place to prevent rogue elements from gaining illicit access and doing that.

I did my internship with a company building locomotives (the then ABB Transportation) and a software install would take upwards of several hours and it could only be done when all systems were down. To connect the laptop you had to remove a cover inside the locomotive and break a seal, so you couldn't do it without leaving evidence. And the tiema nd effort required mean its wasn't something a nonchalant terrorist can do in between things when the engineer's back is turned for a second. This was many years ago though and maybe things are simpler now.

Possibly you wouldn't need to tamper with the software though. Suppose there was a way to gain access remotely and send commands to the locmotive. I don't know Amtrak's control system works. In the UK, when a cab trailer is controlling the train, the commands are actually transmitted using the lighting circuits. In some countries they use the public address circuit instead, but the principle remains the same. So quite theoretically somebody could go to the bathroom, unscrew the light or loudspeaker and hook up a laptop and start sending signals. I don't know what sort of internal validation there is to determine if commands are legitimate. I guess there must be something but can't say anything about the level of security.

But I think we can discount that in this case as the locmotive was pulling and there wasn't a cab car.

So what else is there. Radio? Some freight locomotives can be controlled by radio, but I doubt this is the case for the ACS-64.

Maybe there is some GSM or equivalent link for diagnostics. But could that be hacked to actually control the locomotive? Not impossible but highly unlikely.

So I would say, overall it is not impossible that the locomotive was controlled maliciously by an external agent, but one should be cautious of consiracy theories when there are more likely explanations open, such as a human or technical error.

However this is all speciulation. I'm sure the investigation will be thorough and not leave a stone unturned to evaluate all the evidence.

Before that, anything we say is pure conjecture.


----------



## NW cannonball

John Bobinyec said:


> Everyday we trust that drivers of motor vehicles will stay in their lane, stop at stop signs and at stop lights, etc... And so it is with engineers. It really doesn't matter whether he was using his cell phone, or failed to operate the train properly or failed to stop the train if the locomotive went wild, or he went into a daze or had some sort of mental lapse, etc... All those things could happen again tomorrow to any other engineer running trains here. The only thing that will prevent such incidents in the future, whatever their cause, is PTC.
> 
> jb


Agree. Sooner is better.

And I think it's a disgrace that the mandate for the Class I freight roads to get with PTC (the railroads that Amtrak shares with freight on the long-distance lines) hasn't happened.

It has taken too long, and the deadline has been postponed,

Technical problems, sure.

The classical unfunded mandate that allows our beloved Congress to spout that they are "doing something" "with no taxpayer money" to help "save lives" oh my.


----------



## NW cannonball

cirdan said:


> However this is all speciulation. I'm sure the investigation will be thorough and not leave a stone unturned to evaluate all the evidence.
> 
> Before that, anything we say is pure conjecture.


So true.

BUT - when the NTSB finds serious problems, like with this unfortunate case, or the Metro North case last year,

Preliminary warnings from them and FRA come out real soon.

Like - "get that PTC" (or ACES or whatever) working NOW.

Which is what I think NTSB and FRA have made very very clear.

The final report will take a year of careful sifting of evidence, will evaluate not only cause but emergency response (seems good) survivability (could seat belts help, did seats or car parts break loose and cause injuries) etc etc.


----------



## jis

FormerOBS said:


> Third rail:
> 
> Do you know that the throttle sends its commands to the traction motors via a (hackable) computer? I can't say definitively, but I question that.
> 
> Tom


Computer yes, hackable unlikely. Those computers are no different from hundreds of them running around in Europe in EuroSprinters.

But Thirdrail is correct in stating that when one investigates accidents nothing is off the table until it has been investigated thoroughly and then taken off the table.

Incidentally, I will be riding behind a EuroSprinter in a couple of weeks, two weekends after this coming weekend in fact. 



NW cannonball said:


> BUT - when the NTSB finds serious problems, like with this unfortunate case, or the Metro North case last year,
> 
> Preliminary warnings from them and FRA come out real soon.
> 
> Like - "get that PTC" (or ACES or whatever) working NOW.
> 
> Which is what I think NTSB and FRA have made very very clear.


That actually is not at all what NTSB and FRA said. They specifically asked Amtrak to use the existing ATC system to put in place achievable safe speed control heading into this curve from the west, pending the commissioning of ACSES later this year. They have also asked Amtrak to identify other areas where there is a speed limit drop of more than 20mph (if I recall correctly that was the number and is the same one as in response to Spuyten Duyvil) and apply the same ATC based controls to enforce safe speed. Everyone realizes that this might add some amount of time to the timetable.

I have described the specifics of what has exactly been done in a different post on the signaling thread.


----------



## KmH

> NTSB Chairman Christopher Hart “We know that a properly installed and functional positive train control or PTC would have prevented this accident.”


Bureaucrat BS.

We do not know as fact that a properly installed and functional PTC would have prevented this accident.

A properly installed and functional PTC probably would have prevented this accident, but it is not certain a properly installed and functional PTC would have prevented this accident.


----------



## VentureForth

It's never appropriate to use absolutes in press conferences or interviews. Always leave yourself an out with "probably" or "could have".


----------



## Ryan

I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where this accident could have occurred with functioning PTC in place.


----------



## crescent2

Not related to the most recent posts:

We know that before the emergency brakes were applied by the engineer, the train had accelerated. That would at first seem to indicate the engineer wasn't dozing or incapacitated, but I have a question for those familiar with the locomotive. Could the throttle be moved forward if someone fell onto it (from dozing or some medical issue), or are there "stops" or extra sideways movements involved in putting it into different notches or speed levels that would make that unlikely? Just wondering. I know it's all speculation at this point.

The engineer had a good record and it's just hard to imagine that he was being deliberately reckless or that inattentive if he was well and awake.

As this was a new type of locomotive, even if its computer was not hacked, could there have been a software bug that caused this? IIRC, there was a plane crash, or perhaps near-crash, of an Airbus in a scenario where the plane's computer would not accept (overrode) the pilots' input and they could do nothing. Again, just wondering. I know next to nothing about these locomotives.


----------



## jis

The software in the control system is not new. It has been operating in Europe for several years now.


----------



## MattW

Ryan said:


> I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where this accident could have occurred with functioning PTC in place.


The key here is "functioning." In ITCS territory (Niles, MI?) not so long ago, an Amtrak train in 110mph territory was incorrectly routed onto a side track with loaded ballast hoppers. The PTC system was in-place and "operating" but since someone had left a jumper wire in place inside a signal cabinet, it showed clear. Fortunately in that case, the engineer had decided to hold off accelerating to 110mph for whatever reason and the train still came to rest within a very short distance of the loaded hoppers. My personal chief concern with PTC is the increase in complexity and complacency that will and has developed.

***NOTE: These details are coming from memory, when I have time later, I will verify them and make corrections as appropriate***


----------



## jis

Yes. Human ingenuity will always be able to thwart the best designed automation, simply because humans have this false belief that they can always be better at it.  Ehile it is true that at times human intervention is needed, and there are specific procedures for doing so, inevitably there will be someone who will come around who intentionally or otherwise will fail to follow the laid down procedures and then disaster happens. And after that inevitably we see endless moaning from people trying to completely irrationally defend the possibly irrational act of a person even before all the facts are in and the investigation is completed.

In the ITCS case mentioned it was the human ingenuity of the signal maintainer that caused the trouble. In the slow speed Acela derailment it was possibly that of the Engineer and the Dispatcher together (don't quite recall exactly what happened there off the top of my head). The fact that we have a safety system on the NEC built of bits and pieces of a modern control system glued onto an obsolete signaling system provides for many more opportunities for things to go wrong requiring human intervention providing opportunities for human ingenuity to insert itself in the loop, sometimes to the rescue and sometimes to disaster. But we got what we got and we have to learn to live with it. It is as simple as that.

So to come back to Ryan's question - PTC as it appears on the NEC depends on about 7 different interfaces where things can go wrong. In a clean slate ERTMS design and implementations there would possibly be two or three only. When there are more parts that can break, the likelihood of breaking increases. So the best of intentions can still be undermined. Nothing is for sure. However, after all the speechifying is done by everyone that wants to make speeches, at the end of the day unless we are willing to pay for a superior safety system, we will not have one.


----------



## Ryan

MattW said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having trouble coming up with a scenario where this accident could have occurred with functioning PTC in place.
> 
> 
> 
> The key here is "functioning."
Click to expand...

Well, yes - that's what the chair said:



> NTSB Chairman Christopher Hart[/size]
> 
> “We know that a properly installed and functional positive train control or PTC would have prevented this accident.”[/size]


Sounds like a pretty safe absolute statement to me.


----------



## Alexandria Nick

crescent2 said:


> IIRC, there was a plane crash, or perhaps near-crash, of an Airbus in a scenario where the plane's computer would not accept (overrode) the pilots' input and they could do nothing.


The Airbus flight computers won't accept _invalid_ inputs. I suspect that you're thinking of the Air France crash off Brazil a few years back. Allow me to quote Popular Mechanics (I've underlined the important bits):



> The plane has climbed to 2512 feet above its initial altitude, and though it is still ascending at a dangerously high rate, it is flying within its acceptable envelope. But for reasons unknown, Bonin once again increases his back pressure on the stick, raising the nose of the plane and bleeding off speed. Again, the stall alarm begins to sound.
> 
> Still, the pilots continue to ignore it, and the reason may be that they believe it is impossible for them to stall the airplane. It's not an entirely unreasonable idea: The Airbus is a fly-by-wire plane; the control inputs are not fed directly to the control surfaces, but to a computer, which then in turn commands actuators that move the ailerons, rudder, elevator, and flaps. The vast majority of the time, the computer operates within what's known as normal law, which means that the computer will not enact any control movements that would cause the plane to leave its flight envelope. The flight control computer under normal law will not allow an aircraft to stall, aviation experts say.
> 
> But once the computer lost its airspeed data, it disconnected the autopilot and switched from normal law to "alternate law," a regime with far fewer restrictions on what a pilot can do. In alternate law, pilots can stall an airplane.
> 
> It's quite possible that Bonin had never flown an airplane in alternate law, or understood its lack of restrictions. Therefore, Bonin may have assumed that the stall warning was spurious because he didn't realize that the plane could remove its own restrictions against stalling and, indeed, had done so.


----------



## CHamilton

Would Old Pennsy RR System Have Saved Lives At Frankford Junction? The Short Answer Appears To Be Yes; That's Why They Put It Back In Operation Shortly After Fatal Train Derailment


This is posted on a website sponsored by a firm of trial lawyers, so take its contents accordingly.


----------



## CHamilton

Senators to probe deadly Amtrak crash




> Senators are planning to hold a hearing about a deadly Amtrak accident in Philadelphia that killed eight people last month.
> The Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation will meet on June 10 to discuss the crash and efforts to install automated train control technologies that investigators say would have prevented the deadly accident.


----------



## jis

Both Boeing and Airbus have had problems with the complex control modes that are involved in providing different levels of safety envelope protection, and pilots either misunderstanding or simply losing situational awareness of what mode they are flying in, leading to mistakes. Such was involved in the Air France crash in south Atlantic. The Asiana short landing at SFO also involved such misunderstanding leading to mishandling. Actually NTSB did criticize Boeing's design of the modes in case of the latter, and Airbus also got dinged a bit by the French BEA (equivalent of NTSB) on the Air France crash.

Now the safety envelope issue is much simpler in case of trains since they can basically move only in one dimension - along the track. Also it is relatively easy to bring the train to a completely safe state i.e. stopped dead on the track. So the overall problem of maintaining a train within a safety envelope is a much simpler one. It should be noted though that these engines do have the so called "cruise control" function AFAIK, which means that the control system does have limited capability to accelerate the train within the safety envelope, i.e. upto a speed that is the lesser of the signal speed, the civil speed limits, the maximum speed coded for the engine and the speed set in the cruise control. In case of the Frankford derailment there was no safety envelope other than the engine speed limit of 125mph since Clear does not in and of itself have an associated signal speed limit. I am not sure what exact code is put in the track for Clear on the Frankford curve.

So that does leave some room for the possibility though highly unlikely, of a control system failure leading to a speedup.

And finally, yes you can make the railroad completely safe using the ATC system but add an hour to the schedule of everything possibly. You can make it even safer by simply not running any trains at all. Safety is always a matter of balancing functionality against safety, and it is always easy to second guess a decision with 20/20 hindsight of a single event.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The most dangerous part of a train trip, or any other kind of transport, is driving to the station, terminal or airport!


----------



## afigg

jimhudson said:


> The most dangerous part of a train trip, or any other kind of transport, is driving to the station, terminal or airport!


Especially if you decide to drive around the lowered grade crossing arms because you are in a hurry...


----------



## jis

Boy! Are we becoming students of restating the obvious?


----------



## VentureForth

Fundamentally, Boeing and Airbus have had different philosophies going into FBW designs. It was Boeing's contention that a human made need to make a maneuver that may, in fact, over stress the airframe for safety. The control laws allowed for that. The pilots still had to know how to fly the plane and understand the performance limitations. Airbus tried to take out that factor and make the control laws such that it would be impossible to leave the flight envelope. Now, this is the first time I've heard of alternate law, which I presume (rightly or wrongly) added after the initial fly-by-wire designs.

The control laws in an aircraft, albeit much more complex than in a locomotive, are subject to programming. And, as such, prone to human error. Flight testing can get 99.999% of the bugs out of the system, but perhaps just maybe a subroutine could be called out that was never contemplated which could thwart the control laws.

If you think train by wire or fly by wire is scary - I've read that there is work being done on fly by wireLESS. Pilot sends a command by RADIO to the control surface actuators and engine management system. Now that's scary.


----------



## jis

The biggest problem so far has been in the ergonomics of the machine human interface regarding the operation of the aircraft under various laws. A significant proportion of the recent mishaps have been traced back partly to the loss of situational awareness regarding which law one is operating under at a given moment and confusion about what that means in terms of operations. Not much has been found in the way of actual bugs in code causing anything.

The moral equivalent of that on the NEC would be if the Engineer was confused about whether ACSES is in operation or not, and had formed a habit of ACSES warning for each civil speed limit. In that scenario, if there is a stretch with no ACSES, and Clear signal then such an Engineer could overspeed. This would be a typical case of a safety envelope protection being absent and the operator forgetting that it is absent.

The Air France stall to some extent was related to such a phenomenon, and that is what is believed explained the irrational behavior of the pilot in command. He was flying the plane as if it was under normal law, while that plane had actually transition to one of the alternate laws that did not provide the recovery to safety that he was depending on to correct the situation in the back of his mind.


----------



## VentureForth

And that is a true concern. There would have to be (and I'm surprised that Airbus apparently didn't have) a CLEAR indication when the automatic functions of the computers are disabled - whether in trains or airplanes. Training certification would require simulation in each circumstance.


----------



## MattW

VentureForth said:


> *SNIP*
> 
> If you think train by wire or fly by wire is scary - I've read that there is work being done on fly by wireLESS. Pilot sends a command by RADIO to the control surface actuators and engine management system. Now that's scary.


UGH! Anyone who thinks fly-by-wireless is a good idea needs to be smacked hard! :angry: I could maybe see it as some kind of backup system if all the electrical cables running to the controls get cut (highly unlikely enough) but to rely on it is...unthinkable!


----------



## jis

Hey all those UAVs are flown by wireless links. So start thinking fast. It is past the time for "unthinkable". And those UAVs, the larger ones are quite capable of carrying ordnance that can cause some serious damage.


----------



## MattW

There's a bit of a difference between wireless to plane, and wireless to the plane's control surfaces. The way UAVs are designed, a momentary loss of contact in the case of the former isn't likely to cause a crash, while a momentary loss of the latter could be catastrophic. Only the smallest (RC) craft are essentially direct wireless links to the control surfaces.


----------



## jis

MattW said:


> There's a bit of a difference between wireless to plane, and wireless to the plane's control surfaces. The way UAVs are designed, a momentary loss of contact in the case of the former isn't likely to cause a crash, while a momentary loss of the latter could be catastrophic. Only the smallest (RC) craft are essentially direct wireless links to the control surfaces.


You are making a whole host of assumptions about the architecture used for the latter which IMHO is unwarranted. Given your assumptions yes, there is a problem. But I would at least give the engineers working on such a benefit of doubt as to not being idiots.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a bit of a difference between wireless to plane, and wireless to the plane's control surfaces. The way UAVs are designed, a momentary loss of contact in the case of the former isn't likely to cause a crash, while a momentary loss of the latter could be catastrophic. Only the smallest (RC) craft are essentially direct wireless links to the control surfaces.
> 
> 
> 
> You are making a whole host of assumptions about the architecture used for the latter which IMHO is unwarranted. Given your assumptions yes, there is a problem. But I would at least give the engineers working on such a benefit of doubt as to not being idiots.
Click to expand...

I would give Russian or Iranian engineers the benefit of the doubt on that. American engineers, never.


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are making a whole host of assumptions about the architecture used for the latter which IMHO is unwarranted. Given your assumptions yes, there is a problem. But I would at least give the engineers working on such a benefit of doubt as to not being idiots.
> 
> 
> 
> I would give *Russian* or Iranian engineers the benefit of the doubt on that. American engineers, never.
Click to expand...

N1 rocket design, Nedelin catastrophe, that recent Proton rocket launch with the guidance unit installed upside down...


----------



## dlagrua

Hugo Teso, a software consultant was able to prove that he can take control of an aircraft navigation system by using an application that he developed for his smartphone. Look him up online as this forum doesn't allow links or videos.

Let us not be so certain that that an Amtrak locomotive control system cannot be hacked. Smart phones, laptops, home networks, auto On Star , banking systems, credit card companies have all been hacked. The IRA and the Pentagon's network have been hacked. What does that say? Two days ago another report came in that the information of up to 4 million federal employees has been stolen. If a hack command had been received that instructed to accelerate the locomotive to over 100 MPH just before the curve, the engineer might not have had time to notice and react. It could have been human error but then again it might not have been. It would seem that the black boxes have the answers. For now only the NTSB knows what info is contained in them.


----------



## Ryan

You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.

I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.

Edit: ***, it is stripping links, at least from the app.

Edit2: Links from a desktop? Link?


----------



## Hal

Ryan said:


> You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.
> 
> I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.
> 
> Edit: ***, it is stripping links, at least from the app.


A hacker would have to have been on the locomotive.


----------



## Ryan

Exactly. I think someone would have noticed that.


----------



## John Bobinyec

dlagrua said:


> If a hack command had been received that instructed to accelerate the locomotive to over 100 MPH just before the curve, the engineer might not have had time to notice and react.


Of course there would be time if the engineer is awake and paying attention. And definitely the engineer would notice if he was applying the brakes but the train was accelerating. The only way he wouldn't have had time is if the hacker instructed the engine to cut in the solid rocket boosters. Other than that, the maximum acceleration pulling a train isn't that much.

jb


----------



## FormerOBS

When trains start flying, I'll take the word of an aircraft guy on these issues. Till then I'll rely on railroad specialists. Some people have been reading too much Tom Clancy and seeing too many CG movies.

Tom


----------



## Bob Dylan

Since I'm probably the least Hi- Tech savvy member of AU, I'll tale the word of our resident computer/hi-tech members as pertains to this aspect of the Philly tragedy!


----------



## AKA

jimhudson said:


> Since I'm probably the least Hi- Tech savvy member of AU, I'll tale the word of our resident computer/hi-tech members as pertains to this aspect of the Philly tragedy!


I resemble that remark


----------



## jis

Actually Hugo Teso's claims have not quite held up upon detailed scrutiny either. So don't just take everything that appears in video on face value either


----------



## dlagrua

Ryan said:


> You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.
> 
> I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.
> 
> Edit: ***, it is stripping links, at least from the app.
> 
> Edit2: Links from a desktop? Link?


So what you are saying is that there is no sattelite communications link between the Amtrak engine control center and home base. There is a GPS link though. There's your way in. While the scenerio that I suggest might not be possible, I have trouble believing that an expereinced Amtrak engineer, (who ran the NEC route many many times) could be so careless as to accelerate to 106 MPH before a known curve. I am of the opinion that anything can be hacked but only time will tell what really happened..


----------



## Ryan

No, that's not your way in. Put the tinfoil hat away and let the experts work.


----------



## DooBdoo

I read it on the internet so it must be true.


----------



## PRR 60

A modern derivation of Occam's Razor: "_the simplest explanation is usually the correct one._" Sadly, the simplest explanation is operator error.


----------



## jis

dlagrua, please at least take the time and make the effort to read and teach yourself how GPS works so that you can avoid posting utterly foolish statements about "the way"  .

And where on earth do you get the idea that this forum does not allow links to videos?

And finally do not believe everything you see on a random video without investigating it further. There has been a lengthy thread on airliners.net on this very subject with people who actually design and maintain the systems in question, and the conclusion was not very favorable regarding the veracity of the claims.


----------



## Big Iron

PRR 60 said:


> A modern derivation of the simplest explanation is usually the correct one." Sadly, the simplest explanation is operator error.


 Like when med students are taught how to diagnosing an illness.........When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras.


----------



## Hal

dlagrua said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't hack what you can't connect to. Unless you're going to plug into a MU cable without anyone knowing, you're not going to be met with much luck.
> 
> I have no idea what you're talking about with links either.
> 
> Edit: ***, it is stripping links, at least from the app.
> 
> Edit2: Links from a desktop? Link?
> 
> 
> 
> So what you are saying is that there is no sattelite communications link between the Amtrak engine control center and home base. There is a GPS link though. There's your way in. While the scenerio that I suggest might not be possible, I have trouble believing that an expereinced Amtrak engineer, (who ran the NEC route many many times) could be so careless as to accelerate to 106 MPH before a known curve. I am of the opinion that anything can be hacked but only time will tell what really happened..
Click to expand...

The GPS link is not a way in. It is a "box" that sends an ID signal. It is not wired to any control system. It only lets CNOC or anyone who can recieve the signal know the location of the locomotive. There is nothing to hack.


----------



## neroden

Well, you COULD hack GPS if you hacked the CIA & commercial satellites which implement it, but...


----------



## jis

You'd apparently require considerable amount of help from the Chinese....  but on the NEC it won't do you any good since no control system uses any input from any GPS.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> You'd apparently require considerable amount of help from the Chinese....  but not NEC it won't do you any good since no control system uses any input from any GPS.


Or a 12year old whiz kid with a lap top in some third world country!


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> Well, you COULD hack GPS if you hacked the CIA & commercial satellites which implement it, but...


USAF satellites, not CIA or commercial. Though if you were going to do that you'd be better off just positioning a GPS jammer set in a spoof mode (rather than broadcast jamming) near where you wanted to mess with the train. Though Amtrak's PTC doesn't work that way so it wouldn't do you any good.


----------



## Hal

Paulus said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you COULD hack GPS if you hacked the CIA & commercial satellites which implement it, but...
> 
> 
> 
> USAF satellites, not CIA or commercial. Though if you were going to do that you'd be better off just positioning a GPS jammer set in a spoof mode (rather than broadcast jamming) near where you wanted to mess with the train. Though Amtrak's PTC doesn't work that way so it wouldn't do you any good.
Click to expand...

Amtrak's PTC will use radio signals to enforce speeds. The signals will be from the transponders. So in that sense it controls the locomotive. But all it can do is put on the brakes to enforce speed restrictions, either temporary or permanent. Unfortunatly it was not in service in the area of the crash. We can imagine in the future a control system that could run the locomotive. Would not even need a man/woman in the cab. I guess then we could imagine a hacker putting on the throttle of that kind of control. But Amtrak is far from that kind of technology currently.


----------



## VentureForth

I'm more terrified of systems like WMATA that are 100% computer controlled and the engineer on board can get fired for driving manually. That has resulted in some horrific crashes.

This tech exists in small, closed systems already all over the place. Most huge airports in the US have operator-less transports. Japan has rail lines with no on board personnel. It's coming.

There ain't enough tin foil (does anyone even make *tin*foil anymore?) to protect everyone from everything.


----------



## jis

Hal said:


> Amtrak's PTC will use radio signals to enforce speeds. The signals will be from the transponders. So in that sense it controls the locomotive. But all it can do is put on the brakes to enforce speed restrictions, either temporary or permanent. Unfortunatly it was not in service in the area of the crash. We can imagine in the future a control system that could run the locomotive. Would not even need a man/woman in the cab. I guess then we could imagine a hacker putting on the throttle of that kind of control. But Amtrak is far from that kind of technology currently.


Doesn't the ACS-64 have the so called "cruise control" feature? If it does then it surely is capable of increasing the speed of the train too in order to maintain the set speed, no?
I don;t know the answer and I am asking this as a genuine question and not as a rhetorical one. Thanks.


----------



## crescent2

crescent2 said:


> We know that before the emergency brakes were applied by the engineer, the train had accelerated. That would at first seem to indicate the engineer wasn't dozing or incapacitated, but I have a question for those familiar with the locomotive. Could the throttle be moved forward if someone fell onto it (from dozing or some medical issue), or are there "stops" or extra sideways movements involved in putting it into different notches or speed levels that would make that unlikely? Just wondering. I know it's all speculation at this point.
> 
> The engineer had a good record and it's just hard to imagine that he was being deliberately reckless or that inattentive if he was well and awake.


Could someone who knows tell us whether the throttle could easily be moved forward if the engineer was incapacitated and fell forward onto it?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

yes except the alerter would have put train in penalty brake.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

> NTSB Issues Second Update on its Investigation Into the Amtrak Derailment in Philadelphia6/10/2015
> 
> WASHINGTON – As part of its ongoing investigation into the May 12, 2015, derailment of Amtrak Train 188 in Philadelphia, the NTSB today provides this update on the analysis of the engineer’s cell phone and related records.
> 
> The NTSB is conducting a detailed examination of the engineer’s cell phone calls, texts, data and cell phone tower transmission activity records from the phone carrier; and records from Amtrak’s on-board Wi-Fi system.
> 
> *Analysis of the phone records does not indicate that any calls, texts, or data usage occurred during the time the engineer was operating the train.* Amtrak’s records confirm that the engineer did not access the train’s Wi-Fi system while he was operating the locomotive.
> 
> ...
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20150610.aspx


*Boldface* added by me, because I feel real good about this news.


----------



## jis

That is good to be reconfirmed. That is something that I had suspected all along. The focus was on it simply because one of the recent accidents involved texting. I bet they also carefully verified that he did not fall asleep too!

I bet the Philadelphia Police Department is disappointed. Afterall that was one of their pet theories to justify their outbursts about "reckless driving".


----------



## crescent2

Woody, I do, too.

http://news.yahoo.com/ntsb-says-amtrak-engineer-didnt-132215729.html#

On another note, how often does the alerter require a response? If mechanical issues could be ruled out, I have a hard time believing the engineer wasn't incapacitated in some way. Why the train accelerated in the last minute is puzzling.


----------



## BCL

WoodyinNYC said:


> NTSB Issues Second Update on its Investigation Into the Amtrak Derailment in Philadelphia
> 
> 6/10/2015
> 
> WASHINGTON – As part of its ongoing investigation into the May 12, 2015, derailment of Amtrak Train 188 in Philadelphia, the NTSB today provides this update on the analysis of the engineer’s cell phone and related records.
> 
> The NTSB is conducting a detailed examination of the engineer’s cell phone calls, texts, data and cell phone tower transmission activity records from the phone carrier; and records from Amtrak’s on-board Wi-Fi system.
> 
> *Analysis of the phone records does not indicate that any calls, texts, or data usage occurred during the time the engineer was operating the train.* Amtrak’s records confirm that the engineer did not access the train’s Wi-Fi system while he was operating the locomotive.
> 
> ...
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20150610.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> *Boldface* added by me, because I feel real good about this news.
Click to expand...

The engineer claimed that he had his personal phone stashed in his backpack, as required by Amtrak rules. I'm thinking a lot of passenger train systems got tough on that after one of those Metrolink collisions where it was revealed that an engineer would text on the job to rail fans.

Also, the only photo they show of him was as a conductor. I've seen several Amtrak engineers getting ready to relieve someone or getting out of a cab, and the typical "uniform" is Silicon Valley like - most often a T shirt and jeans. Maybe a baseball style cap.


----------



## AlanB

crescent2 said:


> On another note, how often does the alerter require a response? If mechanical issues could be ruled out, I have a hard time believing the engineer wasn't incapacitated in some way. Why the train accelerated in the last minute is puzzling.


Since the throttle was being advanced approaching the curve, based upon the evidence that the train was speeding up, that input to the control systems would have satisfied the alterter and would have continuously reset the timer.

However to answer your question, while I believe a RR can program what they like, generally the alterer waits a random amount of time between 1 minute and 2 minutes before it goes off. So it could wait 1:20 this time, 1:40 next time, roll back to 1:25, etc. And of course as already mentioned, any action by the engineer such as blowing the horn, ringing the bell, braking, adjusting the throttle up or down, will reset the timer without the alterer's alarm going off. If no actions are taken, then the engineer must hit a button to satisfy the alterer when the timer runs out.


----------



## crescent2

Thanks, Alan.

So, if the engineer had some medical issue and fell forward onto the throttle, that could account for the acceleration just before entering the curve?

(I want this engineer to not be at fault!)


----------



## WoodyinNYC

crescent2 said:


> Woody, I do, too.
> 
> ...
> 
> If mechanical issues could be ruled out, I have a hard time believing the engineer wasn't incapacitated in some way. Why the train accelerated in the last minute is puzzling.


I can imagine that the engineer made some error that contributed to the crash. We await more information from the Safety Board.

But at least he didn't make the cell-phone-use error that would have been a BIG, stupid, carelessly evil mistake.


----------



## AlanB

crescent2 said:


> So, if the engineer had some medical issue and fell forward onto the throttle, that could account for the acceleration just before entering the curve?
> 
> (I want this engineer to not be at fault!)


First, I'm not sure if that's even possible. I'm not an engineer, but I think that it takes more than just a forward thrust to move the throttle. I know on many light rail train one has to push in a button first to release the control before it will move.

Second, even if it were possible, you would see a sudden quick burst of speed and that didn't happen here. It seemed like a more steady, measured speed increase. Almost like the engineer forgot where he was on the line and thought he was past the curve and needed to accelerate to the higher track speed after the curve. Please note that is pure speculation on my part. I'm not trying to blame the engineer either.

Finally, had he fallen against it and been able to shove it all the way forward, that would have ended his input to the controls. So the alterer timer would have been running again and most likely gone off before the curve.


----------



## FormerOBS

There's a remote possibility that I'm wrong about some aspects of my assessment, but I'm pretty certain this is essentially what happened:

The engineer wouldn't have to fall against the throttle to accelerate. As I understand it, after leaving 30th St. Station, the engineer typically advances the throttle so that the train gradually accelerates to around 75 - 80 m.p.h., then he eases back on the throttle to reduce speed for the 50 m.p.h. curve. If he is injured or distracted during the acceleration phase, he might neglect to reduce the speed after reaching 75 - 80 m.p.h., and the engine will continue to increase speed until the engineer initiates a brake application, or until the alerter does it for him. From all indications, it appears that he did not reduce the throttle setting after reaching 75 - 80 m.p.h. The alerter did not sound, probably because this all happened in too short a time span. It would have come into play a short time later.

The question is not so much what happened, as why.

Tom


----------



## George K

If I recall, NTSB said that there was no mechanical failure of the equipment.

What other explanations are possible for the events?


----------



## SarahZ

FormerOBS said:


> There's a remote possibility that I'm wrong about some aspects of my assessment, but I'm pretty certain this is essentially what happened:
> 
> The engineer wouldn't have to fall against the throttle to accelerate. As I understand it, after leaving 30th St. Station, the engineer typically advances the throttle so that the train gradually accelerates to around 75 - 80 m.p.h., then he eases back on the throttle to reduce speed for the 50 m.p.h. curve. If he is injured or distracted during the acceleration phase, he might neglect to reduce the speed after reaching 75 - 80 m.p.h., and the engine will continue to increase speed until the engineer initiates a brake application, or until the alerter does it for him. From all indications, it appears that he did not reduce the throttle setting after reaching 75 - 80 m.p.h. The alerter did not sound, probably because this all happened in too short a time span. It would have come into play a short time later.
> 
> The question is not so much what happened, as why.
> 
> Tom


This is what I've been thinking all along. He gradually increased the speed, [something] happened to prevent him from slowing the train down, and then [something] stopped happening and he hurried to slow/stop the train, knowing that curve was approaching.


----------



## crescent2

Yes, my feeling (hope?) is that something incapacitated him for a short time, causing the train to accelerate too much before the curve.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Or he got up to see the damage to his fireman window from the rock, while the train was power up in speed. Talking on the radio would meet the alerter needs. Got back to his seat saw the curve hit the emergency brakes and derailed the train.

Only need a few seconds of inattention....

If you read his Trainorders post he has quite aware of the dangers and how easy it was to screw up. He was quite critical of the lack of PTC. Old or New system.


----------



## AlanB

Without going to look at what the timeline showed, and the NTSB hasn't provided the entire timeline yet, I got the impression that he was cruising along at the indicated 80 MPH track speed for a bit. Then the speed was increased starting a minute or so before the crash. That would tend to discount the idea that he moved the throttle forward after crossing the Schuylkill River and entering the straightaway that leads to the curve and just left it in such a position so as to allow the speed to continuously increase.

Additionally, depending on what notch one puts the throttle in, there is a limit to just how fast the train will go. I can't imagine that he would put the throttle into the top notch that would bring the engine to 125 MPH knowing that the top speed was 80 MPH. He'd select the notch setting that gets him closest to 80 MPH.

Unlike a subway train where you slam the throttle to maximum to accelerate as fast as possible and the slam on the brakes for the next station, Amtrak engineers tend to accelerate more smoothly and with a few less G's. They don't slam the throttle to the top notch as they leave a station; they ramp up to provide a more comfortable ride.


----------



## PRR 60

AlanB said:


> Without going to look at what the timeline showed, and the NTSB hasn't provided the entire timeline yet, I got the impression that he was cruising along at the indicated 80 MPH track speed for a bit. Then the speed was increased starting a minute or so before the crash. That would tend to discount the idea that he moved the throttle forward after crossing the Schuylkill River and entering the straightaway that leads to the curve and just left it in such a position so as to allow the speed to continuously increase.
> 
> Additionally, depending on what notch one puts the throttle in, there is a limit to just how fast the train will go. I can't imagine that he would put the throttle into the top notch that would bring the engine to 125 MPH knowing that the top speed was 80 MPH. He'd select the notch setting that gets him closest to 80 MPH.
> 
> Unlike a subway train where you slam the throttle to maximum to accelerate as fast as possible and the slam on the brakes for the next station, Amtrak engineers tend to accelerate more smoothly and with a few less G's. They don't slam the throttle to the top notch as they leave a station; they ramp up to provide a more comfortable ride.


The line from the Schuylkill River to Frankford Junction is not really a straightaway. There are multiple speed restrictions in that section prior to getting to the accident location.

From the Schuylkill River to roughly North Philadelphia Station (PHN) the maximum track speed is 80mph. Through PHN, the track speed drops to 60. Then it's back up to 80 for about a mile, then down to to 65 for the MP84 (Second Street) curve, then back up to 80 for about 2-1/2 miles until the 50mph curves at Frankford Junction. The data recorder will be able to show how the train was handled through the various speed restrictions leading to Frankford junction.


----------



## AlanB

Agreed Bill, but it is more of a straightaway than the first quarter of a mile or so to the river after leaving PHL and prior to the curve. Guess I should have been clearer.


----------



## PRR 60

AlanB said:


> Agreed Bill, but it is more of a straightaway than the first quarter of a mile or so to the river after leaving PHL and prior to the curve. Guess I should have been clearer.


My point was that the train had several speed-control requirements between the river and Frankford Junction. It is not simply setting the speed to 80 and sitting there for six miles. The train should have gone through several accelerations and decelerations prior to getting to the accident scene. Adherence to those speed requirements will be shown by the data recorder.

One correction to my prior post: from the river to PHN, the maximum track speed is 80mph for Acela, but 70mph for Regionals. Here's how it breaks down for the Regional from the river to east of Frankford Junction:

- MP87.2 Mantua (at the Schuylkill River) to MP85.1 Lehigh (PHN) - Track speed *70mph*

- MP85.1 Lehigh to MP 84.5 Clearfield - Track speed *60mph*

- MP84.5 to MP82.1 Shore (just west of Frankford Junction) - Track speed *80mph*

*** Curve at MP84 - *65mph*

- MP82.1 Shore to MP77.2 Holmes - Track speed *110mph*

*** Curve at Shore - *50mph* <== accident curve

*** Curve at MP 81 - *60mph* <== just past accident curve

*** Speed restriction below established track speed.

My theory is that the engineer lost track of where he was on the railroad. He could have been distracted by anything, including his own thoughts. It was night, and the area lacks nighttime visual references. The MP84 curve is geometrically similar to the MP81 curve. As he came out of the MP84 curve, he may have thought almost subconsciously that he was coming off the MP81 curve and entering 110mph territory. The next restriction after the MP81 curve are 90mph curves six miles ahead. He routinely accelerated to near 110mph (106). Less then two minutes later, the Frankford Junction curve was directly ahead in his headlights. He hit emergency, but it was too late.


----------



## jis

PRR I had been thinking the same for quite a while, and mentioned it very early on in this thread. But people who claimed to know the territory better but quite evidently were quite clueless, dissed the hypothesis, and since in the bigger scheme of things it didn't matter whether these ignorant folks agreed or not, I just let it drop. I actually do that quite often these days. Saves a lot of time.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

jis--on the other hand, you and PRR 60 had the company of a lot of other intelligent people thinking exactly what you both were thinking. It makes more sense than anything else, unless he had a seizure or something else medical (but the doctors at the hospital should have been able to determine that).


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> PRR I had been thinking the same for quite a while, and mentioned it very early on in this thread. But people who claimed to know the territory better but quite evidently were quite clueless, dissed the hypothesis, and since in the bigger scheme of things it didn't matter whether these ignorant folks agreed or not, I just let it drop. I actually do that quite often these days. Saves a lot of time.


I do believe people offered other viewpoints. That does not necessarily make them anymore wrong, ignorant or clueless than you, me or anyone else. This is because until we hear from the engineer in question, the various reasons we all are exploring are nothing more than speculation or theories that may happen to fit the facts...as known and/or presented.


----------



## niemi24s

With all those different speed limits in a relatively short distance of about 5½ miles (Post #843) would an engineer jockey the throttle in an attempt to reduce transit time to the bare minimum or simply strike some happy medium using fewer throttle settings? Talking here about what might be considered normal everyday operation and being pretty much on schedule.


----------



## Thirdrail7

niemi24s said:


> With all those different speed limits in a relatively short distance of about 5½ miles (Post #843) would an engineer jockey the throttle in an attempt to reduce transit time to the bare minimum or simply strike some happy medium using fewer throttle settings? Talking here about what might be considered normal everyday operation and being pretty much on schedule.



This is something that I was trying to bring up to Acela150 in post 697 when I mentioned in part:



> Where is the normal braking point for the curve? Are you aware that people run trains differently? How much time did that crew have together so the crew could even determine the engineer's style?


I've noticed over the years that running a train isn't a team sport. There are different styles. I know of some people that will squeeze every second out of the schedule, accelerating and decelerating, braking and drawing power between every speed restriction BECAUSE THAT'S THE TRACK SPEED!

I also know people that kind of mosey along, using the the terrain, grades and throttle manipulation to maintain speeds or schedules.

That being said, I know some people that get right up to speed, braking for the restriction through PHN, then accelerate to the point that you can feel them braking for the 65mph curve only to accelerate to track speed before braking for the Frankford curves.

On the other hand, I know people that never operate above 70 mph in the 80 mile mph zone, particularly if they are headed east. I know people that will get up to 70 after Mantua, and will allow gravity to slow the train down for travel through PHN. Once they clear Clearfield Interlocking, they will casually get up to 65 and never touch the throttle until they are on the other side of the Frankford curves and are accelerating towards Holmes.

Why?

One thing that I haven't seen addressed by anyone in this thread (although I may have missed it since this is a long thread) is the grades involved in the territory. It may not look like much, but there is a nice little downhill grade heading east from MP 84 to Shore. So much, that if you're operating west, the 829 and 835 automatics have the "G" (grade) marker so freight trains and/or work trains do not have to actually stop if either of those signals are displaying the stop and proceed aspect. They may proceed as though a restricting aspect is being displayed. Gravity alone will get a train up to around 72mph from the curve so there isn't much loss in just drifting. As such, I know it would take much for a train to reach a great rate of speed in this stretch whether you are throttled out or not. Even an old DC AEM-7 would be able to achieve a good rate of speed.

At the end of the day, it boils down to personal style which may vary from day to day and from train to train. His choice on this particularly will be readily available on the engine download.


----------



## jis

I have read somewhere, in some French railroad journal, that the operators of the TGV Atlantique trains operating into Gare Montparnasse have had an ongoing competition to see who can cut off power the farthest from the bumper post and drift into the station using only brakes as necessary, while meeting all speed restrictions and schedule. You see there is generally a shallow downgrade into Montparnasse from way outside Paris. Since then I have heard various rumors that people have managed to do this from 186mph a little past Rouvray outside Paris, which seems incredible to me, and is testimony to the incredibly low resistance of steel wheel on steel rail. Don't know the truth or falsehood of this, but the whole idea seems quite interesting and a way to test how efficiently one can operate the train energy consumption-wise, while keeping to schedule.


----------



## Hal

Thirdrail7 said:


> I've noticed over the years that running a train isn't a team sport. There are different styles. I know of some people that will squeeze every second out of the schedule, accelerating and decelerating, braking and drawing power between every speed restriction BECAUSE THAT'S THE TRACK SPEED!
> 
> I also know people that kind of mosey along, using the the terrain, grades and throttle manipulation to maintain speeds or schedules.
> 
> That being said, I know some people that get right up to speed, braking for the restriction through PHN, then accelerate to the point that you can feel them braking for the 65mph curve only to accelerate to track speed before braking for the Frankford curves.
> 
> On the other hand, I know people that never operate above 70 mph in the 80 mile mph zone, particularly if they are headed east. I know people that will get up to 70 after Mantua, and will allow gravity to slow the train down for travel through PHN. Once they clear Clearfield Interlocking, they will casually get up to 65 and never touch the throttle until they are on the other side of the Frankford curves and are accelerating towards Holmes.
> 
> Why?


The answer to "Why" is experience. It takes years to be experienced. In olden times there were two in the cab. One would have that years of experience and the one without the years would be getting the exerience.


----------



## NW cannonball

Mystic River Dragon said:


> jis--on the other hand, you and PRR 60 had the company of a lot of other intelligent people thinking exactly what you both were thinking. It makes more sense than anything else, unless he had a seizure or something else medical (but the doctors at the hospital should have been able to determine that).


Unfortunatlely, doctors might *not* be able to figure that. Expecting doctors to figure the mental state, and even physical state, of someone who's been through a crash like that, when you see them an hour or three (or even a few minutes later) -- extremely difficult.

Drugs, likely they could tell. Seizure -- few ways to tell without a documented history of such.


----------



## NW cannonball

jis said:


> I have read somewhere, in some French railroad journal, that the operators of the TGV Atlantique trains operating into Gare Montparnasse have had an ongoing competition to see who can cut off power the farthest from the bumper post and drift into the station using only brakes as necessary, while meeting all speed restrictions and schedule. You see there is generally a shallow downgrade into Montparnasse from way outside Paris. Since then I have heard various rumors that people have managed to do this from 186mph a little past Rouvray outside Paris, which seems incredible to me, and is testimony to the incredibly low resistance of steel wheel on steel rail. Don't know the truth or falsehood of this, but the whole idea seems quite interesting and a way to test how efficiently one can operate the train energy consumption-wise, while keeping to schedule.


Your comment brings up the question -

What are train engineers rewarded for -

On some of the freight roads, I think, guess, have some evidence - save fuel, but make your meet without slowing traffic.

On the NEC - I've no clue what the pressures are on the train drivers (engineers) to make their time, to clear their meet, to clear their track for priority (Like Acela, or whatever) movements?

Especially if some tracks up the line are out of service, and not making the meet will cause the dispatcher problems?

I expect the NTSB is condsidering these types of issues also. Probably.

And what about the "Six days on the road and I gonna meet my baby tonight" factor ? Huh?

Lots to consider.


----------



## CHamilton

House to probe the status of automated train conversion



> The House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee will hold a hearing on June 24, titled “The State of Positive Train Control Implementation in the United States.”


----------



## jis

In other words the blind will spend a lot of collective time to try to pretend to provide guidance to the deaf?


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## NW cannonball

Now, now - cynicsm has it's place -

But yeah, these "hearings" little hope for positive outcome.


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## Ryan

jis said:


> In other words the blind will spend a lot of collective time to try to pretend to provide guidance to the deaf?


Congressional hearings will be slightly less useful.


----------



## Chucktin

Maybe somebody should arrange for a natural gas collection in the hearing room.


----------



## JoeBas

Does PTC stand for "Positively Trite Congresspersons"?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

And with out the congress we would not have PTC mandate. Which would of prevent this and other accidents like this.


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## andersone

How long does NTSB usually take?

I can find very little info


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## John Bobinyec

Typically they'll take a year to issue their final report.

jb


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## NW cannonball

And, the final report will be extremely detailed and include everything from the state of the rails (with metallurgical consults) and signals (with on-site recordings ) and the railcar structure, and history and physical of the operator, and dispatcher, and comparative results on the local emergency response (which was by all reports, very rapid and effective), and and and.

The final report will be extremely thorough.

Thanks NTSB, I'm glad to pay taxes for what you all do, and do well.


----------



## afigg

News on the legal front with regards to the many lawsuits being files. NY Times: Amtrak Will Not Fight Suits Filed in Wreck. Start of the article:



> WASHINGTON — Amtrak said in a court filing on Friday that the railway would not contest lawsuits seeking compensation for damages caused by the May 12 derailment of its passenger train that crashed shortly after leaving 30th Street Station in Philadelphia, killing eight and injuring more than 200.
> 
> The railroad company also admitted that the train was “traveling in excess of the allowable speed” when it derailed. Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board said the train was going 106 miles per hour on a curve where the speed limit is 50.
> 
> The admissions were part of a filing in the United States District Court in Philadelphia in connection with the first two passenger cases against the passenger rail company. The claims are among nearly two dozen that have been filed against Amtrak in connection with the fatal crash.


Amtrak's legal liability limit is $200 million total, so the payout to the claimants may be allocated by a judge. The articles discusses the competing bills in Congress to raise the legal liability limit which would have an effect on the net cost of insurance for Amtrak.


----------



## neroden

John Bobinyec said:


> Typically they'll take a year to issue their final report.


Actually, looking at it, it's more like two or three years in most cases. They are generally *very* thorough.

I check every so often because I've been looking for the report regarding the Amtrak employee who was killed by the train I was on. But it looks like the delay from incident to final report in railroad cases is typically over two years, and often more than three.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

neroden said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typically they'll take a year to issue their final report.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, looking at it, it's more like two or three years in most cases. They are generally *very* thorough. I check every so often because I've been looking for the report regarding the Amtrak employee who was killed by the train I was on. But it looks like the delay from incident to final report in railroad cases is typically over two years, and often more than three.
Click to expand...

A duration of one year is roughly the minimum you'll see for a relatively simple case. If the investigation results in complicating factors or competing theories the NTSB is likely to take two or even three years to complete their investigation. If the investigation has failed to find the culprit after three years of research the NTSB may release the report as-is even if it is unable to clearly identify the primary cause. At that time the investigation will go cold unless and until new evidence is discovered or new testing techniques are developed that the NTSB feels may warrant reopening the case. Such a reopening is usually in response to another similar incident that provides more information and/or better preserved evidence that results in an investigatory breakthrough. And sometimes the root cause is simply never identified.


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## crescent2

No news really, but the NTSB has issued a preliminary report:

http://ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/DCA15MR010_preliminary.pdf

Please excuse if this link has already been posted. I didn't scan back through the thread.


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

I'm still baffeled by the cause myself, indications would point to driver error but knowing the driver's history as an avid rail safety activist along with his military precision in operating his trains.... Honestly from his background I seriously hope he is cleared of wrong doing.... I would honestly want him driving my train from what I've read....


----------



## amtrakwolverine

If items were thrown at the cab and he ducked he could have forgotten about the curve till the last minute.


----------



## Mokita

Amtrak's inexperienced supervision, poor training and hiring practices will certainly come in to play in the investigation. This tragedy coupled with the 'wrong way' debacle, also in Philadelphia, which clearly denoted that the crew had no idea where they were qualifies my initial statement. If Amtrak does not revamp their hiring and training practices there will be more accidents. In some instances personnel with less than two years service have been enlisted to train others.

There is another 'perfect storm' brewing. With the right combination of ill trained inexperienced operations personnel (of which there are many) it is the prescription for another disaster.

Amtrak needs to _*WAKE UP!*_


----------



## jis

Mokita said:


> Amtrak's inexperienced supervision, poor training and hiring practices will certainly come in to play in the investigation. This tragedy coupled with the 'wrong way' debacle, also in Philadelphia, which clearly denoted that the crew had no idea where they were qualifies my initial statement. If Amtrak does not revamp their hiring and training practices there will be more accidents. In some instances personnel with less than two years service have been enlisted to train others.
> 
> There is another 'perfect storm' brewing. With the right combination of ill trained inexperienced operations personnel (of which there are many) it is the prescription for another disaster.
> 
> Amtrak needs to _*WAKE UP!*_


You know? I have read some facsimile of this rant after each accident for the last thirty years, and am still waiting for the so called perfect storm


----------



## dlagrua

Unless some martians came down to sabotage the train; I choose to believe that the engineer was distracted, not paying attention and made a fatal error. Based on evidence, its a logical conclusion, and I'll stick to it. Anyone wish to take a wager for lunch?


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## Ryan

I choose to believe that we should wait until the NTSB finished their investigation before jumping to conclusions, but I'm crazy like that.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> I choose to believe that we should wait until the NTSB finished their investigation before jumping to conclusions, but I'm crazy like that.


Same here.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Mokita said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's inexperienced supervision, poor training and hiring practices will certainly come in to play in the investigation. This tragedy coupled with the 'wrong way' debacle, also in Philadelphia, which clearly denoted that the crew had no idea where they were qualifies my initial statement. If Amtrak does not revamp their hiring and training practices there will be more accidents. In some instances personnel with less than two years service have been enlisted to train others.
> 
> There is another 'perfect storm' brewing. With the right combination of ill trained inexperienced operations personnel (of which there are many) it is the prescription for another disaster.
> 
> Amtrak needs to _*WAKE UP!*_
> 
> 
> 
> You know? I have read some facsimile of this rant after each accident for the last thirty years, and am still waiting for the so called perfect storm
Click to expand...

Would you actually know it if you saw it? Perhaps you've actually already seen a "perfect storm" situation and you weren't aware of it because it didn't evolve into a full fledged tsunami.


----------



## Mokita

I cannot get the quote feature to work so I am addressing jis and third rail.

jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?

The makings are there for more of them. Let me ask you this. If the engineer was distracted why did not the conductor apply the emergency brake? Surely he could have detected by train movement that the engineer was exceeding the speed before the curve. There is a big difference in sensation between 70 mph, the speed approaching thecurve, and 106 plus mph. Obviously the conductor was a victim of poor supervision, poor training and inexperience also as was the engineer who had only three weeks of experience on that division.

Third rail I've seen and been aware of many perfect storm situations over the years and many of them have not come to fruition thankfully. There are folks out there who should not be operating trains and that is directly due to Amtrak's hiring and inadequate training procedures.


----------



## George K

Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error



Mokita said:


> Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/05/13/what-we-know-about-amtraks-history-of-accidents-injuries-and-deaths/



> Overall, Amtrak is experiencing fewer accidents per year in recent years, according to the FRA. Between 2000 and 2014, Amtrak's total accident rate per million passenger miles dropped by more than half, from 4.1 to 1.7. Numbers currently stand near previous lows in the late 80s and early 90s. Over the same period, annual Amtrak derailments decreased from 80 to 28.
> 
> Digging into the details, accidents due to track problems have fallen by two thirds since 2000, while accidents caused by human error have roughly halved over that period. But accidents due to equipment problems -- train cars and engines -- are essentially flat after a brief rise in the mid-2000s. But again, numbers in the late 80s and early 90s were slightly lower.


More than a 50% reduction in total accidents over 14 years sounds pretty good to me.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mokita said:


> I cannot get the quote feature to work so I am addressing jis and third rail.
> 
> jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?
> 
> The makings are there for more of them. Let me ask you this. If the engineer was distracted why did not the conductor apply the emergency brake? Surely he could have detected by train movement that the engineer was exceeding the speed before the curve. There is a big difference in sensation between 70 mph, the speed approaching thecurve, and 106 plus mph. Obviously the conductor was a victim of poor supervision, poor training and inexperience also as was the engineer who had only three weeks of experience on that division.
> 
> Third rail I've seen and been aware of many perfect storm situations over the years and many of them have not come to fruition thankfully. There are folks out there who should not be operating trains and that is directly due to Amtrak's hiring and inadequate training procedures.


I believe the conductor was in the bathroom, so maybe he wasn't exactly "in position" to pull the emergency break if he felt the acceleration.


----------



## Ryan

Mokita said:


> jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?


By all means, enlighten us.

Limit your responses to human error on the part of the train crew, not human error on the part of the idiots that put themselves in front of trains.


----------



## Hal

Mokita said:


> I cannot get the quote feature to work so I am addressing jis and third rail.
> 
> jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?
> 
> The makings are there for more of them. Let me ask you this. If the engineer was distracted why did not the conductor apply the emergency brake? Surely he could have detected by train movement that the engineer was exceeding the speed before the curve. There is a big difference in sensation between 70 mph, the speed approaching thecurve, and 106 plus mph. Obviously the conductor was a victim of poor supervision, poor training and inexperience also as was the engineer who had only three weeks of experience on that division.
> 
> Third rail I've seen and been aware of many perfect storm situations over the years and many of them have not come to fruition thankfully. There are folks out there who should not be operating trains and that is directly due to Amtrak's hiring and inadequate training procedures.


The conductor was not riding on the head end. He rides in the coaches. Also it was nightime. It takes years of experience on the territory to know location by the feel of the tracks. That conductor did not have years. It would not surprising if he did not detect the engineer was exceeding the speed approaching the curve. Nor do I think it would be that big a difference in sensation. But it is also possible he did know. The conductor is not sitting with an emergency brake. A conductor who realizes the engineer is increasing speed at the wrong location may not have the time to reach an emergency brake and prevent an accident.

Amtrak is responsible for a number of reasons but not their hiring and training. It takes more than training and skills to prevent accidents. It takes experience. None are born with experience. Even with training and experience, adequate or not, there will always be human error. No humans are going to be perfect. In my opinion there should be two crew in the cab. There should have been Positive Train Control. Even without Positive Train Control in place there was already existing technology that could have slowed and stopped the train. It was a fail that it was not installed approaching that curve in the eastbound direction as it was going westbound.


----------



## Mokita

Enlighten yourself. Check Amtrak's history of employee error fatalities.


----------



## jis

Why don't you provide us specific facts and statistics instead of innuendos if you really wish to be taken seriously that is.


----------



## Ryan

Mokita said:


> Enlighten yourself. Check Amtrak's history of employee error fatalities.





Ryan said:


> Mokita said:
> 
> 
> 
> jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?
> 
> 
> 
> By all means, enlighten us.
> 
> Limit your responses to human error on the part of the train crew, not human error on the part of the idiots that put themselves in front of trains.
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting....


----------



## George K

Mokita said:


> Enlighten yourself. Check Amtrak's history of employee error fatalities.


See post #876.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> I'm still baffeled by the cause myself, indications would point to driver error but knowing the driver's history as an avid rail safety activist along with his military precision in operating his trains.... Honestly from his background I seriously hope he is cleared of wrong doing.... I would honestly want him driving my train from what I've read....


You hope he is cleared? I hope we get the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. All this hand wringing over the conductor's future career is of no consequence to me. If the engineer wanted me on his side he should have put his passengers first and spoken to investigators immediately after the accident and throughout his recovery.



George K said:


> More than a 50% reduction in total accidents over 14 years sounds pretty good to me.


Maybe the question we should asking is how Amtrak's safety record holds up to other industrialized countries over the same time period?


----------



## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> More than a 50% reduction in total accidents over 14 years sounds pretty good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the question we should asking is how Amtrak's safety record holds up to other industrialized countries over the same time period?
Click to expand...

I agree that this would be a good comparison metric. though Amtrak metrics should be considered in two separate pieces, one where Amtrak owns the infrastructure and the other where it operates on host railroad's infrastructure. Th relative smallness of the size of Amtrak operations will also tend to have some confounding effects possibly, though I am not exactly sure whether that would be to the advantage or disadvantage of Amtrak.

The fact that US generally has less capable signaling systems all around where passenger trains operate than any self respecting industrialized country has, would also have some significant effect.


----------



## jebr

There has been quite a few personal attacks in this thread lately from multiple people. This thread is being locked, at least temporarily, pending moderator/admin discussion.


----------



## PRR 60

This topic will remain locked until such time as new information is released by the NTSB or some other authoritative source. In the course of the 927 posts, I think we've all had our say, and now it's time to await the findings of the experts.


----------



## PRR 60

The attached article from Philly.com (Philadelphia Inquirer) was forwarded by *jis*. It concerns the present $200 million liability cap for rail accident claims and how it will impact claims against Amtrak:

Philly.com, 8/5/2015:



> A plan to help the victims of the Amtrak Train 188 derailment will be stuck in limbo for weeks - maybe months - as Congress heads to its summer break, leaving open the question of how much money could be available for those who suffered devastating injuries and the families of passengers who were killed. At issue is a 1997 law that caps the liability in rail accidents at $200 million, an amount that experts say likely will not be enough to cover the damages for the eight people killed and more than 200 injured in the Philadelphia accident.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> The fact that US generally has less capable signaling systems all around where passenger trains operate than any self respecting industrialized country has, would also have some significant effect.


I would assume that incidents on level crossings cause far more train-related accidents and deaths in the US than signal issues do.

So I don't think signalling is the Achilles heel of either Amtrak or US railroads as a whole.

However, the relative responses to both types of accident don't really reflect that.


----------



## CHamilton

Feds: Former Philly school cop lied to get into Amtrak crash scene


----------



## acelafan

Jan 26, 2016

New York Times Magazine - The Wreck of Amtrak 188


----------



## HenryK

"Lost situational awareness." That could have happened to any of us doing anything in our lives.

I think it's a very good article, although the armchair experts will have at it.


----------



## greatcats

I too think it was a good article. The writer seemed to indicate grade crossings. If I am not mistaken, I believe those were all eliminated on the Northeast Corridor.


----------



## dlagrua

Failure of equipment, engineer error, engineer distracted by a rock hitting the windshield are some of the theories that have been discussed. I believe that people will be surprised when the true facts of this tragic accident are released. My opinion is that the engineer was not at fault. Come this spring we should have the NTSB report and the guessing will be over . Let not forget that the train carried a "black box".NTSB already knows exactly what happened.


----------



## Fan Railer

The writer was simply using grade crossings as an example of where RR accidents typically occur, then comparing it to the atypical setting of the 188 accident.


----------



## jis

dlagrua said:


> Failure of equipment, engineer error, engineer distracted by a rock hitting the windshield are some of the theories that have been discussed. I believe that people will be surprised when the true facts of this tragic accident are released. My opinion is that the engineer was not at fault. Come this spring we should have the NTSB report and the guessing will be over . Let not forget that the train carried a "black box".NTSB already knows exactly what happened.


Last I looked there was no "black box" in existence that recorded the state of a human mind.


----------



## afigg

greatcats said:


> I too think it was a good article. The writer seemed to indicate grade crossings. If I am not mistaken, I believe those were all eliminated on the Northeast Corridor.


There are 11 grade crossings remaining on the NEC, all in eastern Connecticut on the curvy Shore Line east segment. None on the southern half of the NEC, so that is not an issue for the NYP-WAS round trip the engineer was making. However, that does not preclude privately own cars from getting onto the tracks as there have been 2 fatal collisions in the past 2 years on grade separated high speed segments. One was with an SUV in MA (3 killed) and one last April in RI. Somehow the vehicles got out onto the tracks, never did see much follow-up in the news on the collisions or how they got out onto the tracks as no one on board the trains were seriously hurt. The one in RI put a nearly new ACS-64 out of service.
The NYT articles mentions a new wrought-metal fence going up at the junction where the derailment occurred. I have noticed these sturdy black metal fences going up at various places on the NEC. Amtrak has been taking steps to try to keep trespassers off of the tracks, but with a 457 mile long corridor, it is a major challenge.


----------



## Railroad Bill

One of the better articles on this issue I have read. The author did a nice job of providing background and context to the event without trying to outguess the NTSB report. After next week, we shall all have a better understanding of the facts involved, as they are known, and eventually, the NTSB will provide their interpretation and causation for the accident. Many lives were changed on that fateful day


----------



## City of Miami

I didn't read anything I hadn't read before + a lot of human interest stuff. No new information though - which is not at all surprising since the official report hasn't come out. Why does the NYT print this at this time rather than waiting for some real news?


----------



## Rover

City of Miami said:


> I didn't read anything I hadn't read before + a lot of human interest stuff. No new information though - which is not at all surprising since the official report hasn't come out. Why does the NYT print this at this time rather than waiting for some real news?


Yes, Why Today???


----------



## Acela150

Rover said:


> City of Miami said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't read anything I hadn't read before + a lot of human interest stuff. No new information though - which is not at all surprising since the official report hasn't come out. Why does the NYT print this at this time rather than waiting for some real news?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Why Today???
Click to expand...

If you're saying the report is out. It is NOT out. This report will most likely come out after May. Not to mention you'll know when the report is out. Considering it has such major implications.


----------



## George K

Engineer recalls accelerating:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amtrak-engineer-brian-bostian-recalls-opening-throttle-before-fatal-crash/



> The last thing Amtrak engineer Brandon Bostian remembers before last May's fatal crash in Philadelphia is pushing the throttle forward to pick up speed and then braking when he felt the train going too fast into a sharp curve, according to a transcript of his interview with federal accident investigators.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

George K said:


> Engineer recalls accelerating:
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/amtrak-engineer-brian-bostian-recalls-opening-throttle-before-fatal-crash/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing Amtrak engineer Brandon Bostian remembers before last May's fatal crash in Philadelphia is pushing the throttle forward to pick up speed and then braking when he felt the train going too fast into a sharp curve, according to a transcript of his interview with federal accident investigators.
Click to expand...

How about quoting the part where the acceleration was appropriate for where he was. Your quote is as bad as the headlines. Leading people to think that he was purposely trying to go an unsafe speed.



> The limit for the stretch of track prior to the curve is 70 mph, although there is a portion prior to that where it is 80 mph.
> 
> "Once I pushed the throttle forward in an attempt to bring the train up to 80 miles an hour, I don't have any other memories until after the train was already in the curve," Bostian said in the November interview.


----------



## George K

Yeah, I saw that as well, but I got figuratively spanked for quoting too much from an article.

It was not my intention to be unfair, but to draw attention to the fact that there's some news on the story.

If I offended or appeared unfair, I apologize.


----------



## Hal

Acela150 said:


> Rover said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> City of Miami said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't read anything I hadn't read before + a lot of human interest stuff. No new information though - which is not at all surprising since the official report hasn't come out. Why does the NYT print this at this time rather than waiting for some real news?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Why Today???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you're saying the report is out. It is NOT out. This report will most likely come out after May. Not to mention you'll know when the report is out. Considering it has such major implications.
Click to expand...

They did release a bunch of documents today. That is why you see all the news articles. 
http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=58167&CurrentPage=1&EndRow=15&StartRow=1&order=1&sort=0&TXTSEARCHT

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Acela150

A bunch is an understatement. I'd say it was well over 100. I can't recall the exact amount. Most of which is very interesting to read if you have the time.


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## Hal

Acela150 said:


> A bunch is an understatement. I'd say it was well over 100. I can't recall the exact amount. Most of which is very interesting to read if you have the time.


The released documents are the raw material they will use for their report.

The format of the docket makes reading the material somewhat difficult.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Acela150

Hal said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A bunch is an understatement. I'd say it was well over 100. I can't recall the exact amount. Most of which is very interesting to read if you have the time.
> 
> 
> 
> The released documents are the raw material they will use for their report.
> 
> The format of the docket makes reading the material somewhat difficult.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

That makes sense. Thanks. I did find some of the info interesting to look at.


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## Rover

The Washington Post ~ Feb. 1. 2016

*Engineer in Philadelphia Amtrak derailment recalls ‘foggy’ memory*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/ntsb-prepared-to-release-report-on-last-years-deadly-amtrak-wreck/2016/02/01/3c9f7e46-c837-11e5-88ff-e2d1b4289c2f_story.html

I just read the Comments section.... the article was just rehash of more of the same data and speculation.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

I have to say, I have seen headline reports that the engineer is changing his story. They offer as proof his statements made immediately after the incident, were that he could not recall details. Now, he is beginning to remember some details. That is what they claim is the change.

I have no idea if the engineer is truthful, but I can see a person regaining some memory, as time progresses, after suffering a head injury. And such is not, by itself, proof of deceit.


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## Acela150

Ask the greed ridden lawyers if they believe it. Idiots.


----------



## daybeers

I know the report isn't out yet, but I'd like to hear opinions on this now that the data has been released. I have read all of the interviews, but haven't looked at much else in the report. What are your thoughts on what happened? Do you think something hit 188? If so, what? Is it related to whatever hit the SEPTA and Acela trains? Do you think the engineer is telling the truth and not trying to change his story?


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## Ryan

Yes.

Yes.

Not rocks.

Yes.


----------



## daybeers

Ryan said:


> Yes.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Not rocks.
> 
> Yes.


Do you think it was a gunshot? So you think the same person or group of people that shot the SEPTA and Acela trains also shot 188?


----------



## ayezee

daybeers said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Not rocks.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think it was a gunshot? So you think the same person or group of people that shot the SEPTA and Acela trains also shot 188?
Click to expand...

I thought they came out last may and said it was not a gunshot? I could be mistaken.


----------



## PRR 60

ayezee said:


> daybeers said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Not rocks.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think it was a gunshot? So you think the same person or group of people that shot the SEPTA and Acela trains also shot 188?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought they came out last may and said it was not a gunshot? I could be mistaken.
Click to expand...

Yes, they did. The possibility that something else could have hit the train has was not eliminated. The SEPTA train was struck several miles away from the accident, and the sad reality is that trains getting hit by rocks or whatever is not uncommon in that area.


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## Ryan

They did. I'm unconvinced that it's possible to throw a rock hard enough to hit the side of a passing train (the Acela just before the derailment and another last week) and cause the kind of damage we saw.


----------



## daybeers

PRR 60 said:


> Yes, they did. The possibility that something else could have hit the train has was not eliminated. The SEPTA train was struck several miles away from the accident, and the sad reality is that trains getting hit by rocks or whatever is not uncommon in that area.


Thanks for the link! I wish something could be done about the common occurrence of objects hitting trains.



Ryan said:


> They did. I'm unconvinced that it's possible to throw a rock hard enough to hit the side of a passing train (the Acela just before the derailment and another last week) and cause the kind of damage we saw.


Agreed.


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## PRR 60

Regardless of what may have hit the train, the SEPTA and Acela were struck over three miles west of the derailment site. Eastbound 188, after passing that area, slowed appropriately for a speed-restricted curve at Second Street, then began the fatal acceleration up to and over the 80 mph track speed and ultimately to 106 mph prior to entering the 55mph Frankfort Junction curve about two miles later.

If 188 had also been hit in the same area as SEPTA and the Acela were hit (and there was no radio report from 188 that it had been hit), the effect was evidently not sufficient to impact the proper operation of the train at the Second Street curve - about one mile east. This, to me, suggests the theory that the engineer was incapacitated or stunned by being hit by the same parties that hit the SEPTA and Acela trains, and that caused him to go overspeed into the curve is not credible. Now, could there have been some others out there unrelated to the SEPTA and Acela incidents who hit 188? Maybe, but I think that's a stretch.

I'm standing by my opinion from the day after the derailment that the engineer of 188 simply lost track of where he was on the railroad: that he thought he was east of Frankford Junction, had entered 110mph territory and was accelerating appropriately when, in fact, he was still west of the junction. In my opinion, it was human error that was compounded by the fact that the existing signal system was not configured to prevent an eastbound overspeed train from entering that curve (as it was for westbound trains). My opinion, and my opinion only.


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## jis

I also tend to agree with PRR's opinion. Clearly there was loss of situational awareness. Such can happen for no specific identifiable reason, other than tiredness or momentary distraction. Happens to the best of us occasionally for short moments during long drives. They are not as dangerous when speeds are low.


----------



## west point

Sorry but rocks can break windows as this poster has personally experienced. Happened going thru Oakland on CS .


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## Hal

west point said:


> Sorry but rocks can break windows as this poster has personally experienced. Happened going thru Oakland on CS .


I have seen engine windshields broken by rocks. By broken I mean really broken, all the way, no glass left in half the windshield.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Acela150

Ditto Hal here.


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## Ryan

Windshields are easy, you have the forward motion of the train to do the work for you.

Side windows, not so much.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

PRR 60 said:


> I'm standing by my opinion from the day after the derailment that the engineer of 188 simply lost track of where he was on the railroad: that he thought he was east of Frankford Junction, had entered 110mph territory and was accelerating appropriately when, in fact, he was still west of the junction. In my opinion, it was human error that was compounded by the fact that the existing signal system was not configured to prevent an eastbound overspeed train from entering that curve (as it was for westbound trains). My opinion, and my opinion only.





jis said:


> I also tend to agree with PRR's opinion. Clearly there was loss of situational awareness. Such can happen for no specific identifiable reason, other than tiredness or momentary distraction. Happens to the best of us occasionally for short moments during long drives. They are not as dangerous when speeds are low.


Not only do I agree with this, it seems this is where the official story is going too.


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## Bob Dylan

Ditto!


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## andersone

There is a reason they call it an accident rather than an on purpose


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## crescent2

Thanks, Hal, for the link to the NTSB documents.

The transcripts of the interviews are very interesting. I don't think the engineer is changing his story; in his November interview he can simply recall a few additional details but nothing of the two or three minutes before the derailment. One detail is that he said he thought he might have thought the speed limit for the section before approaching the curve had a 70 mph limit instead of 80 mph, and he accelerated from about 70 mph to reach the 80 mph limit. One of the event recorder graphs seems to indicate the same. IIRC, that's his last memory until after the crash.

From what those interviewed said, he was deemed to be a very good engineer. A lack of situational awareness might seem to be the most likely cause, but I'm still not convinced that for whatever reason, he may have lost consciousness for a couple of minutes. Syncope can be triggered by a sudden stressful event, or result from no known cause. I know, because I've had occasional episodes of syncope myself.

As to the broken windshields and window, the impacts didn't seem like the usual impacts from rocks to the engineer. (I don't recall whether this was the SEPTA or Acela engineer who stated such, but one of them did.) The FBI has, of course, said there was no evidence of gunshots, but the engineers mentioned gunfire or rocks. The interview of Ms. Henry, an assistant conductor, is unique in that she recalls that train 188's engineer (Brandon) had radioed in that he "saw" gunfire or rocks or something coming at him, then she stated he laid down on the horn and then the derailment happened. No one else seems to have heard this radio transmission, and of course the engineer doesn't recall it. I'd simply wonder if she had mistaken 188's engineer for the SEPTA engineer's earlier transmission, but her timing is really off for that. I'm curious as to what the NTSB's final conclusions will be regarding her statements.

I truly hope the engineer had some medical or other unavoidable issue that was the reason he kept accelerating into the curve. It doesn't seem he'd mistake one curve for another, but he obviously accelerated too long. He seems believable to me in that he can't recall the critical moments, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt most times. Presumably the NTSB can make heads and tails of this. I sure can't.


----------



## MattW

andersone said:


> There is a reason they call it an accident rather than an on purpose


Except traffic collisions here in Atlanta, I'm trying to get the term "stupid" applied rather than "accident." So on the radio in the mornings, instead of "There's an accident on the downtown connector" it would be "there's a stupid on the downtown connector."


----------



## warrenwarner

I looked through this thread to try to find the answer I'm looking for. I apologize someone has already said this but, does anyone know what happened to the new acs-64 locomotive #602. Was it taken to Beech Grove?


----------



## Thirdrail7

warrenwarner said:


> I looked through this thread to try to find the answer I'm looking for. I apologize someone has already said this but, does anyone know what happened to the new acs-64 locomotive #602. Was it taken to Beech Grove?


The 602 is on the King's special. if you're looking for the 601 which is the engine that was involved in the accident, it is in Wilmington, which is the base for the ACS-64s.


----------



## Mokita

crescent2 said:


> Thanks, Hal, for the link to the NTSB documents.
> 
> The transcripts of the interviews are very interesting. I don't think the engineer is changing his story; in his November interview he can simply recall a few additional details but nothing of the two or three minutes before the derailment. One detail is that he said he thought he might have thought the speed limit for the section before approaching the curve had a 70 mph limit instead of 80 mph, and he accelerated from about 70 mph to reach the 80 mph limit. One of the event recorder graphs seems to indicate the same. IIRC, that's his last memory until after the crash.
> 
> From what those interviewed said, he was deemed to be a very good engineer. A lack of situational awareness might seem to be the most likely cause, but I'm still not convinced that for whatever reason, he may have lost consciousness for a couple of minutes. Syncope can be triggered by a sudden stressful event, or result from no known cause. I know, because I've had occasional episodes of syncope myself.
> 
> As to the broken windshields and window, the impacts didn't seem like the usual impacts from rocks to the engineer. (I don't recall whether this was the SEPTA or Acela engineer who stated such, but one of them did.) The FBI has, of course, said there was no evidence of gunshots, but the engineers mentioned gunfire or rocks. The interview of Ms. Henry, an assistant conductor, is unique in that she recalls that train 188's engineer (Brandon) had radioed in that he "saw" gunfire or rocks or something coming at him, then she stated he laid down on the horn and then the derailment happened. No one else seems to have heard this radio transmission, and of course the engineer doesn't recall it. I'd simply wonder if she had mistaken 188's engineer for the SEPTA engineer's earlier transmission, but her timing is really off for that. I'm curious as to what the NTSB's final conclusions will be regarding her statements.
> 
> I truly hope the engineer had some medical or other unavoidable issue that was the reason he kept accelerating into the curve. It doesn't seem he'd mistake one curve for another, but he obviously accelerated too long. He seems believable to me in that he can't recall the critical moments, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt most times. Presumably the NTSB can make heads and tails of this. I sure can't.


Poor training and inexperience are the culprit here. He got 'lost' at night.


----------



## Ryan

That's it, fire the NTSB, random internet poster has all the answers. Think of the tax dollars we'll save!!!


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> That's it, fire the NTSB, random internet poster has all the answers. Think of the tax dollars we'll save!!!


Ryan, it's that troll again.. Don't feed it..


----------



## Acela150

Mokita said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Hal, for the link to the NTSB documents.
> 
> The transcripts of the interviews are very interesting. I don't think the engineer is changing his story; in his November interview he can simply recall a few additional details but nothing of the two or three minutes before the derailment. One detail is that he said he thought he might have thought the speed limit for the section before approaching the curve had a 70 mph limit instead of 80 mph, and he accelerated from about 70 mph to reach the 80 mph limit. One of the event recorder graphs seems to indicate the same. IIRC, that's his last memory until after the crash.
> 
> From what those interviewed said, he was deemed to be a very good engineer. A lack of situational awareness might seem to be the most likely cause, but I'm still not convinced that for whatever reason, he may have lost consciousness for a couple of minutes. Syncope can be triggered by a sudden stressful event, or result from no known cause. I know, because I've had occasional episodes of syncope myself.
> 
> As to the broken windshields and window, the impacts didn't seem like the usual impacts from rocks to the engineer. (I don't recall whether this was the SEPTA or Acela engineer who stated such, but one of them did.) The FBI has, of course, said there was no evidence of gunshots, but the engineers mentioned gunfire or rocks. The interview of Ms. Henry, an assistant conductor, is unique in that she recalls that train 188's engineer (Brandon) had radioed in that he "saw" gunfire or rocks or something coming at him, then she stated he laid down on the horn and then the derailment happened. No one else seems to have heard this radio transmission, and of course the engineer doesn't recall it. I'd simply wonder if she had mistaken 188's engineer for the SEPTA engineer's earlier transmission, but her timing is really off for that. I'm curious as to what the NTSB's final conclusions will be regarding her statements.
> 
> I truly hope the engineer had some medical or other unavoidable issue that was the reason he kept accelerating into the curve. It doesn't seem he'd mistake one curve for another, but he obviously accelerated too long. He seems believable to me in that he can't recall the critical moments, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt most times. Presumably the NTSB can make heads and tails of this. I sure can't.
> 
> 
> 
> Poor training and inexperience are the culprit here. He got 'lost' at night.
Click to expand...

I know I just said Don't feed the troll, but here are some questions for you.

1. Have you ever been on that particular stretch of railroad in the cab while being stoned? I have. More then once.

2. Have you ever partaken in any railroad training from any railroad? I have. Two different places to be honest. NS and a private facility.

3. How do you know what his experience or inexperience is or was?

4. Do you know what it's like to operate any type of train? Freight, passenger? And Train Simulators don't count towards anything.. We are talking a real locomotive with a real train.

Please enlighten us with your experience. If you don't have any, then please keep your comments to yourself. Thank you.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Like Steve's post! ( from someone who really knows since he's been there!)


----------



## jis

Acela150, you really didn't want to say that you were operating or even in the cab of a locomotive while stoned (as in high), as opposed to stoned ( as in a stone being thrown at you)


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Acela150, you really didn't want to say that you were operating or even in the cab of a locomotive while stoned (as in high), as opposed to stoned ( as in a stone being thrown at you)


Totally off topic here, but I understand that in the past people's views on alcohol were not what they are today and it was quite acceptable and normal for engineers and stokers on steam engines to down a beer or two in the course of performing their duties. I guess with the intense heat and physically tasking nature of the work the effects would have been different though from sitting in a comfortable seat in an air conditioned cab.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Acela150, you really didn't want to say that you were operating or even in the cab of a locomotive while stoned (as in high), as opposed to stoned ( as in a stone being thrown at you)


Stoned as in High.. No. Stoned as in ballast being thrown at me. 100% Yes!


----------



## MikefromCrete

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150, you really didn't want to say that you were operating or even in the cab of a locomotive while stoned (as in high), as opposed to stoned ( as in a stone being thrown at you)
> 
> 
> 
> Stoned as in High.. No. Stoned as in ballast being thrown at me. 100% Yes!
Click to expand...

"Rocked" is probably a better word.


----------



## Ryan

Not according to the dictionary.


----------



## zephyr17

Languages evolve. "Rocked" is less ambiguous in the contemporary context.


----------



## SarahZ

zephyr17 said:


> Languages evolve. "Rocked" is less ambiguous in the contemporary context.


Not really, since everyone knows what stoning is but "rocking someone to death" isn't a thing.

You don't clear up ambiguity by misusing another word in its place.


----------



## Cina

"Rock you like a hurricane" takes on a whole new meaning in this thread.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I think this derailment thread has been derailed.


----------



## Acela150

Are we really fighting over how I worded something? We are all better then this. Let's please get back on topic. Thank you.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think this derailment thread has been derailed.


We are all a bit stoned I say ...


----------



## crescent2

Acela150 said:


> Are we really fighting over how I worded something? We are all better then this. Let's please get back on topic. Thank you.


^Yes please.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AmtrakBlue said:


> I think this derailment thread has been derailed.


Are you saying it's been rocked right off the tracks?


No, we are not.


----------



## neroden

WE WILL, WE WILL ROCK YOU! 

Yeah, rocked means several other things.


----------



## warrenwarner

I'm curious about the cars that were damaged in the accident. Will they be repaired?


----------



## CCC1007

The ones that won't cost too much probably will be returning to service, eventually...


----------



## edjbox

warrenwarner said:


> I'm curious about the cars that were damaged in the accident. Will they be repaired?


Definitely not the business class car that was literally ripped apart


----------



## jis

From what I have heard, the front three cars are gone. The rear several cars are probably going to be back soon. The rest to be determined.


----------



## MikefromCrete

None of those cars -- and the locomotive -- will be touched until the lawyers are finished with them.


----------



## Thirdrail7

MikefromCrete said:


> None of those cars -- and the locomotive -- will be touched until the lawyers are finished with them.


I suspect that will take years.


----------



## cirdan

MikefromCrete said:


> None of those cars -- and the locomotive -- will be touched until the lawyers are finished with them.


don't you mean the forensics?


----------



## CCC1007

cirdan said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of those cars -- and the locomotive -- will be touched until the lawyers are finished with them.
> 
> 
> 
> don't you mean the forensics?
Click to expand...

No, the forensics are already done with them. There is a class action lawsuit against Amtrak over this incident IIRC.


----------



## jis

I suspect that the relatively undamaged rear cars in which there were few injuries and no deaths will be released way earlier than the front three or four cars.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

If you look over past wrecks there are cases where the hardware was returned to service rather early and other times when it was held so long as to be operationally irrelevant. So far as I am aware it's up to the judge to rule how critical physical hardware is to future legal proceedings based on the claims of the litigants. Holding of hardware that is outdated or is damaged beyond economical repair is unlikely to be challenged while hardware that is in high demand and could be returned to service relatively quickly may be granted a hearing to determine future legal relevance. If and when such a hearing occurs and when the judge comes to any sort of conclusion are anyone's guess.


----------



## Acela150

An article on Philly.com states that Amtrak is starting to settle on some suits filed..

The first paragraph has an important date.. May 17th.. That being the date that the NTSB will make it's report public and with it's report their recommendations to improve safety.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20160423_Amtrak_already_settling_claims_from_its_May_12_crash_last_year.html


----------



## AmtrakBlue

> Federal investigators will meet next week to detail the probable cause of last year's fatal Amtrak train derailment in Philadelphia.
> The National Transportation Safety Board's meeting Tuesday in Washington will be held just over a year after the crash that killed eight people and injured more than 200 others.


http://6abc.com/news/amtrak-crash-1-year-later-probable-cause-to-be-revealed/1333749/


----------



## BCL

There's been a "don't cite me" source saying the cause was radio distraction with the reports of rock throwing.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/amtrak-188-derailment-engineer-distracted/


----------



## Acela150

BCL said:


> There's been a "don't cite me" source saying the cause was radio distraction with the reports of rock throwing.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/amtrak-188-derailment-engineer-distracted/


Someone always has to be "that guy" who will start the talking before the official word is out.. Why can't people like this keep their mouth shut and let the actual investigators do the talking?


----------



## BCL

Acela150 said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's been a "don't cite me" source saying the cause was radio distraction with the reports of rock throwing.http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/amtrak-188-derailment-engineer-distracted/
> 
> 
> 
> Someone always has to be "that guy" who will start the talking before the official word is out.. Why can't people like this keep their mouth shut and let the actual investigators do the talking?
Click to expand...

If I were to guess, it was probably done on someone's orders.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I noticed the NTSB also expressed concern about the Emergency Windows; it seems they indicated several pax were tossed through them during the derailment. It makes me wonder how often Amtrak removes those windows, cleans and inspects the mounts and replaces the gaskets.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

OlympianHiawatha said:


> ... they indicated several pax were tossed through the [Emergency Windows] during the derailment. It makes me wonder how often Amtrak removes those windows, cleans and inspects the mounts and replaces the gaskets.


Reminds me that I am prevented from the peace of mind of fastening my seat belt when on Amtrak.

I'm not saying they should require *you* to use a seat belt.

I'm saying I want to use a seat belt but cannot. And I think that's wrong.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Now that the NTSB has completed its investigation, and they say that engineer Bostian was distracted by the radio conversations, is it determined whether he'll face imprisonment/criminal charges or if those charges will be dropped?

And is it likely that he'll ever run trains again?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Now that the NTSB has completed its investigation, and they say that engineer Bostian was distracted by the radio conversations, is it determined whether he'll face imprisonment/criminal charges or if those charges will be dropped?
> 
> And is it likely that he'll ever run trains again?


Who says the investigation is complete? The NTSB is just now having it's meeting. What we've been hearing so far is unofficial.


----------



## tricia

AP article posted online this morning: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_AMTRAK_CRASH_INVESTIGATION?SITE=AZTUS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Now that the NTSB has completed its investigation, and they say that engineer Bostian was distracted by the radio conversations, is it determined whether he'll face imprisonment/criminal charges or if those charges will be dropped?
> 
> And is it likely that he'll ever run trains again?


STOP!!

You are wrong all over here...

The investigation is wrapping up.. I'm currently watching the news conference on my laptop. They are currently determining what the likely cause is.

Second you imply that he is already facing criminal charges. He is NOT. That is up to I believe either the Philadelphia DA or a federal DA..

As for your question to if he'll work for the railroad again... Think about it..


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

AmtrakBlue said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that the NTSB has completed its investigation, and they say that engineer Bostian was distracted by the radio conversations, is it determined whether he'll face imprisonment/criminal charges or if those charges will be dropped?
> 
> And is it likely that he'll ever run trains again?
> 
> 
> 
> Who says the investigation is complete? The NTSB is just now having it's meeting. What we've been hearing so far is unofficial.
Click to expand...

Oh. I thought I heard that it was complete in this CNN article. I must've misheard it.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/amtrak-188-derailment-engineer-distracted/


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

The CNN article was dated yesterday evening, and the NTSB is/was meeting this morning. Even if CNN's story is correct, it's just another example of the media trying to be first with the story instead of waiting for official word. Probably always part of the news media through the past decades, but getting more so now when everyone has to have everything immediately.


----------



## Rover

Here's an article dated today:

Human Error and High Speed Blamed for Deadly Philadelphia Amtrak Crash

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/amtrak-crash/human-error-blame-deadly-philadelphia-amtrak-crash-n575341

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/05/17/investigators-amtrak-engineer-distracted-fatal-crash/84486836/



> _The Amtrak train wasn't hit by rocks or bullets, investigators said._
> 
> _The board voted 3-1 that the probable cause of the accident was because the engineer accelerated to 106 mph “due to his loss of situational awareness likely because his attention was diverted to an emergency situation with another train."_


----------



## Alexandria Nick

Acela150 said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's been a "don't cite me" source saying the cause was radio distraction with the reports of rock throwing.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/amtrak-188-derailment-engineer-distracted/
> 
> 
> 
> Someone always has to be "that guy" who will start the talking before the official word is out.. Why can't people like this keep their mouth shut and let the actual investigators do the talking?
Click to expand...

They often are the actual investigators.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

For those of you on Facebook, one guy has been posting actual transcripts from today's meeting on the Amtrak Northeast Corridor Railfans group page.


----------



## Acela150

I'll make my post brief. Cause I'm on my phone now. Can't get to my laptop. When I'm have access to it I'll give more on my opinion.

But they said the train wasn't hit by rocks. To which I reply. BS. I'll go into details later on my opinion.


----------



## CHamilton

This is a split decision, and one that shows the importance of the best possible people, training, and safety equipment.


"The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) voted 3-1 to determine the probable cause of the May 12, 2015 Amtrak 188 derailment in Philadelphia to be the locomotive engineer's loss of situational awareness....The NTSB Vice Chairman Bella Dinh-Zarr was the lone vote against the probable cause wording. She had introduced an amendment that would have named a lack of a PTC system as the probable cause instead of contributing to it. However, other board members argued that a train's locomotive engineer was solely responsible for the safe operation of a train and PTC was intended as a back up safety system should an engineer falter in that responsibility." http://arr.as/1WD2a7B


----------



## jis

The majority is actually pretty much in line with how these decisions at NTSB go. They will study to the nth degree about the human factors involved etc. But the proximate cause in cases like this is loss of situation awareness. This has been the case in many air investigations too, not just from NTSB in US bit also BEA in France (e.g. AF 447). so I am not the least bit surprised. There is an extremely lively ongoing discussion both in accident investigation and air safety communities about how to characterize the failure of a pilot to aviate (due to loss of situational awareness) in the face of automation failure, and human factors and ergonomics issues at the point of intersection between the pilot's cognitive processes and the cues and controls provided by the automation human interface. Similar level of discussion ought to happen in the railroad safety community to, but has been more muted since railroad risks are an order of magnitude less than in air.

Arguing about whether it is a split decision or not is a pretty futile posturing exercise anyway, just IMHO.

The obvious mitigation is installation of PTC, which has happened. The reason it did not happen earlier is because of Congress. So to some extent the secondary cause is Congress, in a manner of speaking.

However, there still are legions of railroad "experts" in the US who firmly believe that the cost of PTC is not justified. So go figure.


----------



## west point

1. Mention of airline loss of situational problem has been addressed by some airlines. hard and fast rule -- if an emergency or abnormal occurrence one pilot deals with emergency and other flies aircraft. Person dealing with problem just tells other what (s)he is doing. When flying a distraction can occur such as close traffic, weather, etc. So someone always flying aircraft.

2. All reports so far says NTSB is just blaming no PTC. What about Amtrak not providing an limiting signal leading to CP curve ? Cab signal would have dropped 188's speed as well.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> 1. Mention of airline loss of situational problem has been addressed by some airlines. hard and fast rule -- if an emergency or abnormal occurrence one pilot deals with emergency and other flies aircraft. Person dealing with problem just tells other what (s)he is doing. When flying a distraction can occur such as close traffic, weather, etc. So someone always flying aircraft.


There were two pilots trying to figure out what was going on with AF 447, and still it was placed into a stall by wrong inputs from the PIC causing it to crash. So I have no idea what you are trying to say. Who said that there is not someone flying the aircraft. The problem is there are many cases where a perfectly good aircraft is flown into terrain even in a fully controlled flight, e.g. the AA crash in South America into a mountain side some time back. At least AF 447 was not a controlled flight into ocean. It was a rather uncontrolled one by the time it crashed.



> 2. All reports so far says NTSB is just blaming no PTC. What about Amtrak not providing an limiting signal leading to CP curve ? Cab signal would have dropped 188's speed as well.


Actually what NTSB is also alluding to using the PTC terminology is that there was no ATC in place to force entry into the curve at a safe speed either, something that was present at other similar locations.CAB signal would drop speed only if the previous signal before the curve showed a less than Clear mode, which it did not. That was part of the beef, and that was the immediate fix following the derailment, pending installation and commissioning of ACSES transponder based speed control into the curve.


----------



## Acela150

Acela150 said:


> I'll make my post brief. Cause I'm on my phone now. Can't get to my laptop. When I'm have access to it I'll give more on my opinion.
> 
> But they said the train wasn't hit by rocks. To which I reply. BS. I'll go into details later on my opinion.


Ok, I'm on my laptop and can further explain my opinion..

I have been by that area plenty of times in my short career.. We constantly take Empty Slab trains over the Del Air to Camden and turn back on trains that are Loaded.. In the time that it takes us to get relieved from the Empty make our food stop, get paperwork, and a bunch of other stuff it's about anywhere from 1 to 2 hours. Depends if South Jersey has something coming in to Camden. Once I was on such a train and we got rocked around 2pm. By the time we came back it was 330pm in that hour and a half we got rocked again... It's entirely possible that it was a different group of (insert choice words here) at the same spot. But what I'm trying to say is that it's entirely possible that in that short period of time that the Septa train got a broke windshield that 188 could have gotten rocked as well... Which personally I think happened.. But my opinion doesn't matter to them..



jis said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Mention of airline loss of situational problem has been addressed by some airlines. hard and fast rule -- if an emergency or abnormal occurrence one pilot deals with emergency and other flies aircraft. Person dealing with problem just tells other what (s)he is doing. When flying a distraction can occur such as close traffic, weather, etc. So someone always flying aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> There were two pilots trying to figure out what was going on with AF 447, and still it was placed into a stall by wrong inputs from the PIC causing it to crash. So I have no idea what you are trying to say. Who said that there is not someone flying the aircraft. The problem is there are many cases where a perfectly good aircraft is flown into terrain even in a fully controlled flight, e.g. the AA crash in South America into a mountain side some time back. At least AF 447 was not a controlled flight into ocean. It was a rather uncontrolled one by the time it crashed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. All reports so far says NTSB is just blaming no PTC. What about Amtrak not providing an limiting signal leading to CP curve ? Cab signal would have dropped 188's speed as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually what NTSB is also alluding to using the PTC terminology is that there was no ATC in place to force entry into the curve at a safe speed either, something that was present at other similar locations.CAB signal would drop speed only if the previous signal before the curve showed a less than Clear mode, which it did not. That was part of the beef, and that was the immediate fix following the derailment, pending installation and commissioning of ACSES transponder based speed control into the curve.
Click to expand...

I can tell you that after the new year the distant signal to SHORE interlocking was still displaying an Approach Medium on 1-3 tracks. Granted the last time I was on the Del Air Branch was in January and that could have changed.

Now as to the report finding that he was distracted by Radio Traffic..

That's part of any engineers job, as well as a conductor. To monitor the radio for vital information that may effect their train. Other trains getting stoned or rocked does effect the train that he or she is currently running. Any day at any time. It is easy to get distracted by radio traffic. Very easy.

Another thing that will cause chaos with Amtrak and Moron Hill is that the NTSB suggestion that the windows were an issue.. IINM all the windows on the Acela Trainsets are emergency windows. Amfleet's only have IINM 2 a car. I can see the hearing now... Congress giving Amtrak's President (Boardman or New Guy/Gal) grief about it.. Which my reply is simple.. You want safer trains.. Fund them! Don't sit there and say fix it and not give funding.. I can see this happening now and it'll be pure entertainment.. Further comments will be left out..


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Alexandria Nick said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BCL said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's been a "don't cite me" source saying the cause was radio distraction with the reports of rock throwing. http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/amtrak-188-derailment-engineer-distracted/
> 
> 
> 
> Someone always has to be "that guy" who will start the talking before the official word is out.. Why can't people like this keep their mouth shut and let the actual investigators do the talking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They often are the actual investigators.
Click to expand...

 Source?


----------



## Acela150

Just watched the start of the local ABC's 6pm news.. Of course the money bag lawyers are all over it and of course have been.. They have issues with the fact that the engineer didn't remember almost anything at first and then was able to gain memory of the moments before the incident.. I love how these (insert many choice words here) lawyers act like he didn't sustain a serious concussion and that because of such incident he has issues with his memory.

I will be honest.. I have an extreme dislike for lawyers since I got sand bagged by one 4 years ago.


----------



## Karl1459

Acela150 said:


> Just watched the start of the local ABC's 6pm news.. Of course the money bag lawyers are all over it and of course have been.. They have issues with the fact that the engineer didn't remember almost anything at first and then was able to gain memory of the moments before the incident.. I love how these (insert many choice words here) lawyers act like he didn't sustain a serious concussion and that because of such incident he has issues with his memory.
> 
> I will be honest.. I have an extreme dislike for lawyers since I got sand bagged by one 4 years ago.


Of course the same lawyer will argue that the lack of memory and slurred speech from the wreck their client caused while drunk could only have happened because of a head injury...

ps. To be clear, the NTSB has stated that the engineer WAS NOT chemically impaired.


----------



## CHamilton

Please, folks, read the *FULL NTSB PRESS RELEASE*. It's quite obvious that the causes were much more complex than is being reported some places.


----------



## Acela150

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/in-transit/Who-threw-the-rock.html

A well written and brief article.. I should add that the current Chief of Septa's Police force Thomas Nestel III is probably one of the best I've seen in any law enforcement agency. About a month or two ago a rider was on the Market-Frankford El and was being cursed at and all kinds of things that kids in the video shouldn't be saying.. These kids were between 5-8 which is a guess. The video went viral. Chief Nestel wanted to find these children saying such horrible things, not to arrest them or get them in any trouble, but to get these children help! He was very honest to the media and said "We don't want these kids in trouble and we won't be dragging them out of their house in handcuffs. We want to get these children the help that they need". (Something to that effect) I honestly wish all Law Enforcement personnel were like him.


----------



## Alexandria Nick

Devil's Advocate said:


> Alexandria Nick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BCL said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's been a "don't cite me" source saying the cause was radio distraction with the reports of rock throwing. http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/16/politics/amtrak-188-derailment-engineer-distracted/
> 
> 
> 
> Someone always has to be "that guy" who will start the talking before the official word is out.. Why can't people like this keep their mouth shut and let the actual investigators do the talking?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They often are the actual investigators.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Source?
Click to expand...

Personal experience. People closest to the source are the easiest point of contact and everyone knows someone. I've known a few NTSB investigators, all on the air side, and they weren't exactly the tightest lipped people.


----------



## NW cannonball

The NTSB report is published.

No link here, if you can't find NTSB.gov, sorry.

Lots of good info in the official report. Too much for some folk

Again, say, read the whole thing.


----------



## CHamilton

A better analysis than is being produced some places. http://www.rtands.com/index.php/safety-training/ntsb-shines-spotlight-on-ptc-following-amtrak-188-meeting.html?device=auto


----------



## jis

I found this slideset very informative and concise: http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2016_Amtrak_BMG_Presentations.pdf


----------



## B757Guy

jis said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Mention of airline loss of situational problem has been addressed by some airlines. hard and fast rule -- if an emergency or abnormal occurrence one pilot deals with emergency and other flies aircraft. Person dealing with problem just tells other what (s)he is doing. When flying a distraction can occur such as close traffic, weather, etc. So someone always flying aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> There were two pilots trying to figure out what was going on with AF 447, and still it was placed into a stall by wrong inputs from the PIC causing it to crash. So I have no idea what you are trying to say. Who said that there is not someone flying the aircraft. The problem is there are many cases where a perfectly good aircraft is flown into terrain even in a fully controlled flight, e.g. the AA crash in South America into a mountain side some time back. At least AF 447 was not a controlled flight into ocean. It was a rather uncontrolled one by the time it crashed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. All reports so far says NTSB is just blaming no PTC. What about Amtrak not providing an limiting signal leading to CP curve ? Cab signal would have dropped 188's speed as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually what NTSB is also alluding to using the PTC terminology is that there was no ATC in place to force entry into the curve at a safe speed either, something that was present at other similar locations.CAB signal would drop speed only if the previous signal before the curve showed a less than Clear mode, which it did not. That was part of the beef, and that was the immediate fix following the derailment, pending installation and commissioning of ACSES transponder based speed control into the curve.
Click to expand...

Sadly, in both instances, it was fully pilot error. Situation awareness was part of the problem with the AA flight, but not all of it. On the AF flight, it was simply pilot error.


----------



## George K

Officials Release Never Before Seen Photos Of Damaged SEPTA Train


http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/05/20/officials-release-never-before-seen-photos-of-damaged-septa-train/


----------



## Thirdrail7

Meatloaf sings that two outta three ain't bad so while we have threads dealing with foamers, accidents and people that were employed while on drugs, let's see what the engineer (who allegedly meets the criteria for being a buff and definitely had was involved in an accident) of 188 is up to.

Apparently, it is a lawsuit!

Engineer sues Amtrak, claims derailed Philly train was 'under attack by projectiles'

Please allow a brief "fair use quote":



> Engineer sues Amtrak, claims derailed Philly train was 'under attack by projectiles'
> 
> By John Kopp
> PhillyVoice Staff
> 
> The engineer operating the Amtrak train that derailed in North Philadelphia two years ago, killing eight passengers, is suing the railroad.
> 
> Brandon Bostian, 33, alleges he sustained "serious, permanent and painful personal injuries" due to the "negligence and carelessness" of Amtrak on the night of the derailment. He is seeking at least $50,000.
> 
> Bostian's attorney, Robert S. Goggin III, filed the lawsuit Wednesday in the Court of Common Pleas in Philadelphia. The suit alleges his train "was under attack by projectiles," including one that caused him to become "disoriented" or "unconscious."


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Negligence and carelessness of Amtrak to not have Postive Train Control installed on that section of track.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

$50,000? Seems like a mighty small "asking price" given today's jury awards. Even if he was looking for a nuisance payoff, I would think his lawyer would take just about all of it.

Even with a comparative negligence finding, where it is found that Amtrak is 10% at fault, that would be a measly $5,000.


----------



## George K

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> $50,000? Seems like a mighty small "asking price" given today's jury awards. Even if he was looking for a nuisance payoff, I would think his lawyer would take just about all of it.
> 
> Even with a comparative negligence finding, where it is found that Amtrak is 10% at fault, that would be a measly $5,000.


Very common for lawsuits to ask for damages in excess of (insert sum here) in the complaint. The actual amount would be determined by jury after lawyers talk it out. I'm sure he's asking for millions.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Negligence and carelessness of Amtrak to not have Postive Train Control installed on that section of track.


So, since the feds allowed the installation of PTC to get pushed back (even though Amtrak was still working on it,) would they not share the negligence? Maybe we should take a page from Fulham's book and fire the person that hired the lone person to exceed the MAS on the curve and derail.


----------



## jis

This business about PTC not installed is mostly bovine scatology (the idiot UI would not let me use the shorter form of the term  ) Engineers are finally still responsible for following signals, PTC or not. Actually NTSB even said as much, in spite of one misguided member of the group that produced the report.

This is sort of like saying that it was the airport's fault that there was no Cat III support when a pilot crashes a plane on landing in fog. It is always the Pilot's responsibility to figure out whether the operation is safe given what is available.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thirdrail7 said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Negligence and carelessness of Amtrak to not have Postive Train Control installed on that section of track.
> 
> 
> 
> So, since the feds allowed the installation of PTC to get pushed back (even though Amtrak was still working on it,) would they not share the negligence? Maybe we should take a page from Fulham's book and fire the person that hired the lone person to exceed the MAS on the curve and derail.
Click to expand...

One think that the lawyers will be stating this in the court room. I personally understand the responsibility of the engineer, and how projects are completed. But my understand and what is going to be said in a court room are not the same.
You really think the lawyer is not going to bring up a safety device? Or a lack of a safety device as negligence?

A few year back we had a safety device that one driver found annoying. So he wrap a sock around it to muffle the alarms. Rear ended a car. State Troopers saw the sock and off to jail the driver went. Did not matter to them what else happen. He disabled a safety device. He was guilty.

Negligence and carelessness is the claim. By not have a safety device at that location that would prevent overspeed.(If not PTC or the PRR system) Due to the lack of money or "we did not think we needed it there." Your going to prove your negligence and carelessness to the safety of the staff and passengers who ride your trains.

.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Negligence and carelessness of Amtrak to not have Postive Train Control installed on that section of track.
> 
> 
> 
> So, since the feds allowed the installation of PTC to get pushed back (even though Amtrak was still working on it,) would they not share the negligence? Maybe we should take a page from Fulham's book and fire the person that hired the lone person to exceed the MAS on the curve and derail.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One think that the lawyers will be stating this in the court room. I personally understand the responsibility of the engineer, and how projects are completed. But my understand and what is going to be said in a court room are not the same.
> You really think the lawyer is not going to bring up a safety device? Or a lack of a safety device as negligence?
> 
> A few year back we had a safety device that one driver found annoying. So he wrap a sock around it to muffle the alarms. Rear ended a car. State Troopers saw the sock and off to jail the driver went. Did not matter to them what else happen. He disabled a safety device. He was guilty.
> 
> Negligence and carelessness is the claim. By not have a safety device at that location that would prevent overspeed.(If not PTC or the PRR system) Due to the lack of money or "we did not think we needed it there." Your going to prove your negligence and carelessness to the safety of the staff and passengers who ride your trains.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Just-Thinking,

The reality of the situation is you're probably right. Speaking from an operational perspective and regulatory perspective, PTC is not currently considered a safety device...which is why it currently isn't mandatory. I also know that as previously noted, PTC and Cab Signal drops are not the end all be all. One only need to look at LIRR and NJT for verification. However, the average juror wouldn't be phased by the technical aspects and sometimes, all you need is a label.

Therefore, the ultimate question would be "is there something that Amtrak could have done," and the obvious answer is the cab signal drop...and it wasn't in place. So, you're probably right when you say a lawyer would easily make the case, particularly if they point to other locations that DO have cab signal drops. This is probably why Amtrak settled as quickly as they did.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail, isn't it the case that PTC in the form of ACSES is considered to be a mandatory requirement for territories where speeds above 125mph are allowed? It is just not a mandatory requirement anywhere else, right?

As you have pointed out, full PTC was not really necessary to prevent the 188 incident. Only a code drop as has been used elsewhere was all that was needed.

I am still curious as to what caused the Engineer to accelerate so wildly. I guess we'll never know for sure, and will just have to leave it at "Loss of situational awareness".


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Thirdrail, isn't it the case that PTC in the form of ACSES is considered to be a mandatory requirement for territories where speeds above 125mph are allowed? It is just not a mandatory requirement anywhere else, right?


That was the case prior to Amtrak implementing it throughout their territory. It is now required for Amtrak trains on the lines indicated in the MOU submitted to the FRA. However, it is still not classified as a safety device. It is still considered a supplemental system. The problem is if the FRA declares it a safety device, the other railroads would need to have it, particularly on ACSES territory. So for now, it is still considered a supplemental system.


----------



## jis

Are all operators on ACSES enabled trackage required to operate under ACSES already? Or are some them still working on equipping their equipment to be able to do so?


----------



## Acela150

Jis, I can tell you that I seriously understand why the engineer lost his awareness. That area has multiple curves that are similar to the exit of Frankfort Junction. At least 2 that I can think of. Also in my two months of taking Septa trains to Trenton my trains have been rocked about 3 or 4 times out of at least 15 trips. Once on a set of the new rotem cars. The sound of the rock hitting the window is horrible and easily recognizable. I had to look at the windows for cracks to be sure.

Personally I believe that 188 did experience such an event. I also believe that a Septa train to Trenton and an Acela were rocked that night. Septa for sure. I personally think that the 188 tragedy is a result of kids with nothing to do on a nice warm night. Which is a result of poor parenting and a result of our Philly schools being treated like they don't matter. Here in Philly we have a new sugary beverage tax. It will help fund pre-k programs. I personally wish that it would be expanded to give these kids better after school and summer programs.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Always good to get solid info from someone who is actually there! Thanks Steve!


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Are all operators on ACSES enabled trackage required to operate under ACSES already? Or are some them still working on equipping their equipment to be able to do so?


This is only required on the NHB line. ALL trains must be equipped to enter the territory. It is not a requirement on other territories.

At any rate, you can tell a former NS executive is at the helm since Amtrak is now suing the engineer involved in 188.

Amtrak Defends Self From Lawsuit Brought By Engineer In 2015 Fatal Derailment

Please allow a brief "fair use" quote:



> Bostian says he sustained injuries to his head, back and legs in the derailment, in addition to post-concussion syndrome and psychological injuries. Bostian claims some or all of these injuries are permanent, that he sustained a physical or mental impairment which may prevent him from undertaking his usual duties, a loss of earning power, physical and mental anguish, fiscal and credit rating losses and funds expended for his medical treatment.
> 
> On behalf of Amtrak, Hohn disagreed with Bostian’s arguments, countering that his claims are preempted by federal law and that the plaintiff was responsible for the deadly crash.
> 
> To that point, Hohn introduced a brand-new counter-claim, seeking damages against Bostian for his alleged negligence in causing the accident, and denied the underlying rationale of his allegations.


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## Acela150

This is one thing that is ridiculous about NS executives. They sue the person who was at the throttle.

There's no point to it. They know that person doesn't have the money they are requesting for settlement. On top of that NS executives weren't even thought of at Amtrak at the time of the 188 incident.


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## Acela150

I'll add that I read the article. I find it hilarious that people suing Amtrak are claiming the engineer was using his cell phone when that was ruled out as a possible cause within days of the derailment.


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## AmtrakBlue

DA: No charges to be filed in deadly Amtrak crash in Philadelphia

http://6abc.com/news/da-no-charges-to-be-filed-in-deadly-amtrak-crash-in-philadelphia/1971959/


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## tricia

From AP this afternoon: "The speeding Amtrak engineer involved in a derailment that killed eight people and injured about 200 others in Philadelphia won't face criminal charges, the city district attorney's office said Tuesday.

Prosecutors said they can't prove engineer Brandon Bostian acted with "conscious disregard" when he accelerated the train to 106 mph on a 50 mph curve."

Link to this news story: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_AMTRAK_CRASH_PHILADELPHIA?SITE=AZTUS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


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## Rover

*Judge orders Philly DA's Office to charge Amtrak engineer Bostian*

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/law/Judge-orders-DA-to-charge-Amtrak-engineer.html



> President Judge Marsha Neifield of Philadelphia Municipal Court on Thursday ordered the city District Attorney’s Office to reverse course and criminally charge Amtrak engineer Brandon Bostian with involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment.
> 
> To avoid a potential conflict of interest, the District Attorney's Office responded that it would refer the prosecution to the state attorney general.


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## PVD

How do you as a prosecutor prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury when other prosecutors have made a determination they can't do it? Defense counsel will jump all over that.


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## Acela150

Rover said:


> *Judge orders Philly DA's Office to charge Amtrak engineer Bostian*
> 
> http://www.philly.com/philly/business/law/Judge-orders-DA-to-charge-Amtrak-engineer.html
> 
> President Judge Marsha Neifield of Philadelphia Municipal Court on Thursday ordered the city District Attorney’s Office to reverse course and criminally charge Amtrak engineer Brandon Bostian with involuntary manslaughter and reckless endangerment.
> 
> 
> To avoid a potential conflict of interest, the District Attorney's Office responded that it would refer the prosecution to the state attorney general.


You can thank the Personal Injury lawyers for the choice.. They kept crying wolf about how the Philly DA has decided against pressing charges. IMHO they were being sore losers and looking for a bigger pay day.

The crazy part is, they're misdemeanors. Not felony charges they want brought.

But the DA here in Philly is in some trouble with the Feds over Tax Evasion charges and then some. And he has refused to step down despite calls from the Mayor, and the Governor of PA to step down. There is an election for a new DA this year on the plus side.

But I do agree with the DA's office to defer it to the state to avoid a conflict of interest.



PVD said:


> How do you as a prosecutor prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury when other prosecutors have made a determination they can't do it? Defense counsel will jump all over that.


IMO You can't.. He wasn't using a cell phone or any device that's prohibited and there is no way that he was bound and determined to derail the train. No IFC's. It's just a case where it wouldn't go well for the prosecution.

Now IMO this poor guy will have to live the rest of his life knowing that a simple mistake caused 8 people to lose their lives and hundreds more injured. He's already guilty of derailing the train. But it's so much different then killing a trespasser. In the case of a trespasser you can't do anything, you just hit them and have to live with it. But knowing that 8 people died while you were at the throttle and you made a mistake because you were worried about fellow workers.. I honestly feel sorrow for the engineer. I can only imagine what he feels like everyday.


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## Thirdrail7

I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:



> The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.
> 
> "I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."


It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.


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## Chessie

Did families of victims receive any type of compensation?


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## PVD

Yes, there is compensation, Amtrak is settling the civil side, there was a major controversy because Amtrak is limited by law in the size of its payout, in a case with many victims the amounts (per victim) will not be particularly large. Folks just seem to forget or ignore that it is possible for something terrible to happen, for someone to do something wrong, and it is not a criminal act. The PA statute requires "conscious disregard" and there just do not seem to be a set of facts we have been made aware of to support that being applicable.


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## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.
> 
> "I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.
Click to expand...

I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.


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## Chessie

So Amtrak is specially protected by law to give only limited compensation? If that's the case I can certainly understand the frustration of the family.


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## PVD

The old cap was 200 million, Congress raised it to 295 after this accident, I believe the settlement is 265.


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## Acela150

PVD said:


> The old cap was 200 million, Congress raised it to 295 after this accident, I believe the settlement is 265.


Correct.


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## Chessie

Well, $265MM depending on how it's divided doesn't sound too bad to me. Due to my line of work I know people who are in a similar position (nothing to do with Amtrak) receiving practically nothing.


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## Acela150

Per a local news station. PA's AG has decided to file charges. :mellow:


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## ainamkartma

Acela150 said:


> Per a local news station. PA's AG has decided to file charges. :mellow:


New York Times confirms, on front page right now.

Ainamkartma


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## Acela150

Mr. Bostian turned himself in this morning here in Philadelphia. Of course local media outlets were on hand. I'm posting from my phone. I'd attach a link if I wasn't.


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## MARC Rider

Acela150 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.
> 
> "I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.
Click to expand...

How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?


----------



## PRR 60

MARC Rider said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.
> 
> "I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?
Click to expand...

The Pennsylvania Attorney General added a felony charge: causing a catastrophe.


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## crescent-zephyr

And why aren't the kids throwing rocks being held accountable? In my opinion (not that it counts) they are likely responsible and WERE performing. Criminal act.


----------



## Acela150

MARC Rider said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.
> 
> "I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?
Click to expand...

If you lived in Philadelphia those personal injury lawyers were out for blood from the beginning.



PRR 60 said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.
> 
> "I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Pennsylvania Attorney General added a felony charge: causing a catastrophe.
Click to expand...

Didn't know that. But at this point IMO the whole thing is politically motivated. I also agree with ThirdRail that this seems like someone is out for revenge.



crescent-zephyr said:


> And why aren't the kids throwing rocks being held accountable? In my opinion (not that it counts) they are likely responsible and WERE performing. Criminal act.


While I agree with you. You go find the kids who threw the rocks.


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## greatcats

I suppose it is procedure, but I was distressed to read that Mr Bostian was put in hsndcuffs. Awful.


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## RPC

Sigh...so the district attorney office's official position is that a prosecution will be unsuccessful, but they're being forced to prosecute anyway. Dollars to doughnuts their original estimate is correct and this will all be a waste of time (except that the trial lawyers will get richer).


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## PRR 60

My couple of comments:

Do I think the NTSB conclusion that a of lack of situational awareness was the probable cause of the accident? Yes, I do. In fact, I thought so the day after the accident. I transposed the curve mileposts in that post on May 13, 2015, but that is what I thought the day after the accident, and the evidence obtained in the NTSB investigation increased my confidence that Mr. Bostian simply lost track of where he was on the railroad. The evidence suggests that Mr. Bostian came out of the right-hand curve at Second Street, thought he had just cleared the second Frankford Junction curve (also right-hand) and was entering 110mph territory. Every throttle and braking action of the train up to the accident was that of a train under full engineer control. The SEPTA incident was 4-1/2 miles west of the accident site. Nothing in the 4-1/2 miles traveled after passing the disabled SEPTA train suggested incapacitation. He accelerated to increasing track speeds, and slowed for lower track speeds. Even the acceleration to 106mph, with first full power, then reduced power as he approached what he may have thought was his 110mph target speed, was a normal, controlled acceleration to track speed - tragically the wrong track speed.

It there anything even remotely approaching a crime here? Not in my opinion. The NTSB found the lack of situational awareness to be the "probable cause" of the accident, meaning the act or acts most likely to have cause the accident as compared to other possible causes. A crime requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt - a much higher standard of proof than just "probable," and to be a crime, they also must show intent - essentially that Mr. Bostian knew he was unsure of his location and proceeded to go 106mph anyway. Exactly how is any prosecutor going to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence in-hand? This is a political and PR prosecution. Oddly the Philadelphia District Attorney's office, with the DA presently under federal indictment for corruption, made the right call when they declined to prosecute due to a lack of evidence of a crime. It was the state Attorney General that reversed that call, and then double-downed by adding a felony charge. If there is any evidence of a crime, much less a felony, I sure can't see it.

A so-far unmentioned aspect of this criminal charge is the effect it could have on the NTSB's ability to investigate accidents. The NTSB needs those involved in accidents to be willing and candid in describing what happened. Here is a case where Mr. Bostian testified before the NTSB, and his testimony combined with the conclusions reached by the NTSB is now being used a basis for criminal charges against him - charges that are an extreme stretch at best. Were I an attorney (I'm not) and representing anyone involved in a transportation accident, I would look at what happened to Mr. Bostian and advise my client to not say one word to anyone unless granted full immunity from prosecution no matter how innocent they may appear. If the NTSB wanted my client to help them, but with the possible consequence that he or she might later be charged with a crime by some over-reaching prosecutor playing to the public and media, I'd tell them to go pound sand. I suspect the NTSB is thinking the exact same thing and is not happy about this at all.


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## Acela150

Interesting comments Bill.


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## keelhauled

PRR 60 said:


> It there anything even remotely approaching a crime here? Not in my opinion. The NTSB found the lack of situational awareness to be the "probable cause" of the accident, meaning the act or acts most likely to have cause the accident as compared to other possible causes. A crime requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt - a much higher standard of proof than just "probable," and to be a crime, they also must show intent - essentially that Mr. Bostian knew he was unsure of his location and proceeded to go 106mph anyway. Exactly how is any prosecutor going to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence in-hand? This is a political and PR prosecution. Oddly the Philadelphia District Attorney's office, with the DA presently under federal indictment for corruption, made the right call when they declined to prosecute due to a lack of evidence of a crime. It was the state Attorney General that reversed that call, and then double-downed by adding a felony charge. If there is any evidence of a crime, much less a felony, I sure can't see it.


I am not a lawyer, but it sounds to me like they could bring criminal charges of manslaughter against Bostian--PA law states that "A person is guilty of involuntary

manslaughter when as a direct result of the doing of an unlawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, or the doing of a lawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, he causes the death of another person." I agree that a felony charge doesn't seem justified, but I also don't see any way that his actions weren't reckless or negligent, regardless of intention.


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## crescent-zephyr

It's not reckless or negligent to acelerate to 106 mph in what you believe is 110 mph territory.

Adding to that a very valid distraction (train stopped in emergency and lots of radio chatter) I see a very clear way his actions weren't negligent or reckless.


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## keelhauled

But I would argue that it is at the very least negligent to think he was in the wrong territory to begin with. And I don't think that being distracted is a good excuse--it seems like part of the job description to remain in control of the train regardless of ones environment. If I were to hit and kill a pedestrian with my car because I was distracted by a particularly interesting news report on the radio I would certainly be criminally charged. I don't see why a train engineer should be held to a lower standard.


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## jis

Criminal charges against Bostian dropped by the presiding Judge:

http://6abc.com/judge-dismisses-case-against-amtrak-engineer-/2406745/

And from the _Washington Post_:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/engineer-in-deadly-amtrak-crash-wants-criminal-case-tossed/2017/09/12/cedc14de-9772-11e7-af6a-6555caaeb8dc_story.html?utm_term=.4ae4f7f23d5d


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## Ryan

View attachment 7350


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## neroden

Based on what little I know of the law, Bostian was negligent, but not grossly negligent and not reckless. So.


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## LookingGlassTie

@neroden

That's my thinking also; I don't feel as if Bostian displayed reckless or depraved indifference.


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## jis

OTOH, the AG may be displaying depraved and reckless political considerations


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## Acela150

neroden said:


> Based on what little I know of the law, Bostian was negligent, but not grossly negligent and not reckless. So.


No he didn't and wasn't... The (insert choice words here) kids that were throwing the rocks at the Septa train and Amtrak trains were the ones that were negligent and reckless.


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## jis

Acela150 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on what little I know of the law, Bostian was negligent, but not grossly negligent and not reckless. So.
> 
> 
> 
> No he didn't and wasn't... The (insert choice words here) kids that were throwing the rocks at the Septa train and Amtrak trains were the ones that were negligent and reckless.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately purely from a legal standpoint the kids are quite irrelevant as far as this case goes. Neroden is quite accurate as far as the legal situation relevant to this case goes. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Acela150

I'd have to disagree that the kids aren't responsible. The reason that the engineer was distracted was radio traffic as a Septa train got rocked. Those rocks didn't just fly on their own. Someone threw them. Which is reckless endangerment. This happens everyday on the NEC and only once has it lead to a derailment of this magnitude and it's the derailment in question. If these kids weren't out there throwing rocks, I'd venture to say the derailment would have never happened.

If Tom Kline wants to hold someone responsible hold these kids responsible not the engineer. But Tom Kline doesn't get that. Cause he doesn't know a darn thing about the everyday things like this on the NEC. Ever since 188 I have a major hate for him. He's out for blood in this case. He needs to get over it. He's not a criminal attorney, he's a personal injury attorney.


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## SarahZ

If kids throw rocks at cars and a driver swerves and strikes another driver because they were "distracted" by a bunch of kids hanging out near the road, that driver is at-fault for the accident.

The same logic applies here. Sure, some of the blame lies with the idiot kids who were throwing rocks, but as a driver, you are still responsible for maintaining control of your vehicle at all times.

Bostian did not have control over the train due to this distraction, but as Neroden pointed out, he was neither _grossly_ negligent nor reckless. That's the key.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I'd have to disagree that the kids aren't responsible. The reason that the engineer was distracted was radio traffic as a Septa train got rocked. Those rocks didn't just fly on their own. Someone threw them. Which is reckless endangerment. This happens everyday on the NEC and only once has it lead to a derailment of this magnitude and it's the derailment in question. If these kids weren't out there throwing rocks, I'd venture to say the derailment would have never happened.
> 
> If Tom Kline wants to hold someone responsible hold these kids responsible not the engineer. But Tom Kline doesn't get that. Cause he doesn't know a darn thing about the everyday things like this on the NEC. Ever since 188 I have a major hate for him. He's out for blood in this case. He needs to get over it. He's not a criminal attorney, he's a personal injury attorney.


That is a different case. To initiate that one has to first find the kids. In any case that does not absolve the Engineer of all his responsibilities. So I guess we will never agree on the point you are trying to make. So I guess we can save many electron flows by calling it quits. [emoji57]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Mystic River Dragon

I do agree with Acela150 on this one--although the engineer is not completely blameless, I agree that he was not grossly negligent or reckless.

I have always felt that there should have been more of an attempt to find the kids who threw the rocks. Or at least find where they threw them from and send the cops out there to be "visible."

Yes, of course they wouldn't be found, but not even addressing what they did just reinforces today's message that kids can run rampant and be hooligans with no repercussions.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Actually, in the case of an automobile, someone throwing rocks is entirely different, both legally and conceptually.

Negligence is failing to operate with the fully expected due amount of care. Failing to do so makes you civily liable for your actions. The rocks presented no material danger to anybody- kids lobbing rocks at lexan are basically pissing in the wind. People throw rocks at trains- this has been going on forever. Engineers are expected to be able to handle a train that is having rocks thrown at it, or ignore reports of same over the radio. Failing to operate the train in this circumstance, ipso facto, is negligent.

The kids are guilty of a variety of offenses, but are not responsible for the fact that Bostian was negligent in performing as a reasonable train operating expert should in the event that somebody throws rocks at another train.

Gross Negligence is acting in a manner that the reasonable person can expect would lead to a problem. Bostian was distracted by a distracted event in the moment; this is negligent, but an honest era that could happen to any reasonably conscientious person. So he was not grossly negligent, and is therefore not criminally liable.

Willfulness is acting in a manner intended to cause problems. I'd Bostian were to, say, decide that instead of driving the train, he would lean back, look at the ceiling, and whack the alerter with his foot whenever it went off, that would be an example of willful negligence. Were he to do something on that order of magnitude, he'd be guilty of murder. But he sure as hell wasnt there.


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## PVD

Which is pretty much why the civil cases are done. Amtrak did not contest civil liability. The whole criminal thing was a red herring.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Red herring, but the victims and there family want to think that this was not just a random accident.

Random events that cause death is and always will be hard to accept.

Life ends fast, and with out time for a goodbye.


----------



## Karl1459

Green Maned Lion said:


> Actually, in the case of an automobile, someone throwing rocks is entirely different, both legally and conceptually.
> 
> Negligence is failing to operate with the fully expected due amount of care. Failing to do so makes you civily liable for your actions. The rocks presented no material danger to anybody- kids lobbing rocks at lexan are basically pissing in the wind. People throw rocks at trains- this has been going on forever. Engineers are expected to be able to handle a train that is having rocks thrown at it, or ignore reports of same over the radio. Failing to operate the train in this circumstance, ipso facto, is negligent.
> 
> The kids are guilty of a variety of offenses, but are not responsible for the fact that Bostian was negligent in performing as a reasonable train operating expert should in the event that somebody throws rocks at another train.
> 
> Gross Negligence is acting in a manner that the reasonable person can expect would lead to a problem. Bostian was distracted by a distracted event in the moment; this is negligent, but an honest era that could happen to any reasonably conscientious person. So he was not grossly negligent, and is therefore not criminally liable.
> 
> Willfulness is acting in a manner intended to cause problems. I'd Bostian were to, say, decide that instead of driving the train, he would lean back, look at the ceiling, and whack the alerter with his foot whenever it went off, that would be an example of willful negligence. Were he to do something on that order of magnitude, he'd be guilty of murder. But he sure as hell wasnt there.


I have to disagree with the nuances of a response to being "rocked". In Oregon we have had at least on incident where a person was killed directly by a rock thrown from an overpass penetrated a cars windshield and directly killed a person. That sets up a situation where a thrown object becomes a potentially lethal situation that a reasonable person would attempt to avoid. If the "rocking" incidents in PA are typically 4 oz pebbles then it could be considered just a nuisance, a 4 pound stone thrown into a 100mph train windshield could likely be quite another issue.

The issue of responsibility may not even rise to negligence if the loss of situational awareness was a reasonable consequence of the information overload from the "rocking", just as a driver loosing control after swerving to avoid a child suddenly running into the roadway.

That does not relieve Amtrak of its contractual liability from failing to safely transport its passengers.


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## Green Maned Lion

Cars are different.


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## Acela150

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have to disagree that the kids aren't responsible. The reason that the engineer was distracted was radio traffic as a Septa train got rocked. Those rocks didn't just fly on their own. Someone threw them. Which is reckless endangerment. This happens everyday on the NEC and only once has it lead to a derailment of this magnitude and it's the derailment in question. If these kids weren't out there throwing rocks, I'd venture to say the derailment would have never happened.
> 
> If Tom Kline wants to hold someone responsible hold these kids responsible not the engineer. But Tom Kline doesn't get that. Cause he doesn't know a darn thing about the everyday things like this on the NEC. Ever since 188 I have a major hate for him. He's out for blood in this case. He needs to get over it. He's not a criminal attorney, he's a personal injury attorney.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a different case. To initiate that one has to first find the kids. In any case that does not absolve the Engineer of all his responsibilities. So I guess we will never agree on the point you are trying to make. So I guess we can save many electron flows by calling it quits. [emoji57]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

I can say that yes finding the kids would be extremely hard. But this is one reason I respect you so much Jis, you don't want to drag things out. I can easily agree that we disagree on this. 



Karl1459 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, in the case of an automobile, someone throwing rocks is entirely different, both legally and conceptually.
> 
> Negligence is failing to operate with the fully expected due amount of care. Failing to do so makes you civily liable for your actions. The rocks presented no material danger to anybody- kids lobbing rocks at lexan are basically pissing in the wind. People throw rocks at trains- this has been going on forever. Engineers are expected to be able to handle a train that is having rocks thrown at it, or ignore reports of same over the radio. Failing to operate the train in this circumstance, ipso facto, is negligent.
> 
> The kids are guilty of a variety of offenses, but are not responsible for the fact that Bostian was negligent in performing as a reasonable train operating expert should in the event that somebody throws rocks at another train.
> 
> Gross Negligence is acting in a manner that the reasonable person can expect would lead to a problem. Bostian was distracted by a distracted event in the moment; this is negligent, but an honest era that could happen to any reasonably conscientious person. So he was not grossly negligent, and is therefore not criminally liable.
> 
> Willfulness is acting in a manner intended to cause problems. I'd Bostian were to, say, decide that instead of driving the train, he would lean back, look at the ceiling, and whack the alerter with his foot whenever it went off, that would be an example of willful negligence. Were he to do something on that order of magnitude, he'd be guilty of murder. But he sure as hell wasnt there.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to disagree with the nuances of a response to being "rocked". In Oregon we have had at least on incident where a person was killed directly by a rock thrown from an overpass penetrated a cars windshield and directly killed a person. That sets up a situation where a thrown object becomes a potentially lethal situation that a reasonable person would attempt to avoid. If the "rocking" incidents in PA are typically 4 oz pebbles then it could be considered just a nuisance, a 4 pound stone thrown into a 100mph train windshield could likely be quite another issue.
> 
> The issue of responsibility may not even rise to negligence if the loss of situational awareness was a reasonable consequence of the information overload from the "rocking", just as a driver loosing control after swerving to avoid a child suddenly running into the roadway.
> 
> That does not relieve Amtrak of its contractual liability from failing to safely transport its passengers.
Click to expand...

The "rocks" are always pieces of ballast. So imagine a piece of ballast going through your windshield at 100 MPH. The only place you see smaller ballast is in some yards known as "walking ballast". I used to work in a yard that had a small section of walking ballast. Think of walking ballast as tiny pebbles that's easy to walk on. I actually prefer regular ballast over the stuff that was in Morrisville. Cause at least in yards the ballast is packed down as it's walked on constantly.


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## daybeers

http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/mc-nws-philadelphia-amtrak-crash-criminal-charges-20171220-story.html



> A judge on Wednesday told prosecutors that she'll review Brandon Bostian's case and set a hearing for February.


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## Green Maned Lion

Kinderkopfs.


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## Bierboy

Bostian now facing manslaughter charges...

https://apnews.com/1773b0ed612f4be5858d37afc6848c83/Charges-reinstated-vs.-Amtrak-engineer-in-Philadelphia-crash


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## TinCan782

*How A Shirt From Target Helped A Survivor Of Deadly Amtrak Crash Heal*
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/10/7218...helped-a-survivor-of-deadly-amtrak-crash-heal


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## jis

Case against the Engineer for this crash has been dismissed again...

https://6abc.com/charges-again-dismissed-against-engineer-in-deadly-amtrak-wreck/5413323/

Wonder what the lawyers in the City of Brotherly Love have in store now.


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## PVD

The State AG has indicated they will appeal. This is reaching the level of idiocy. Does anyone think a jury could find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt when the Phila. DA and 2 judges have said it is unlikely that a crime was committed or could be proven. I don't know PA law, but in NY even if this somehow got to trial I could see a trial order of dismissal as a real possibility.


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## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> Does anyone think a jury could find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt when the Phila. DA and 2 judges have said it is unlikely that a crime was committed or could be proven.


Was this the same engineer who immediately declined to be questioned about the the crash until days later after choosing to meet with lawyers and advocates first? Something about that sequence of events rubbed me the wrong way. Sure, it's within your rights to protect yourself first and foremost, but in the case of innocent deaths my sympathy primarily lies with those who were injured and killed.


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## flitcraft

Personally, I think it is entirely appropriate to wait to make a statement until the shock of the events has worn off. Nothing that the engineer could have said would have changed the deaths of the innocents in this case, but words said can be twisted and interpreted to create liability where none actually existed. Years ago, we had a case in my office where a father was questioned by the police hours after escaping from a fire in which his adult disabled daughter died. Obviously he felt horrible and blamed himself for the situation, and things that he said to that effect were used to prosecute him. Sixteen years later, new evidence showed that he was completely innocent. No one can give him back the years he spent imprisoned for something that was not a crime at all, just a tragic accident.


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## Devil's Advocate

I don't disagree that there is a reason and benefit for keeping your mouth shut until you've had time to digest everything and to be very careful with what you say afterward. But does it really benefit society as a whole to place the operators and safety investigators at odds with one another? Perhaps whatever is said to the NTSB in the first few hours should be given some sort of limited immunity so long as it is given transparently and truthfully.


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## PVD

We live in a country where too many people think that any untoward incident needs to be punished as a criminal event. Weighing benefit to society against risk to oneself, I think most people vote for themselves. The problem here wasn't the safety investigators, or even the criminal investigators, it is a group of private parties looking for a pound of flesh, and a few politicians looking for a ton of press. Something terrible happened, the civil cases are settled, this is pointless grandstanding.


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## Anderson

Honestly, this is the sort of situation where I wish overly-aggressive prosecutors had to pay defense costs after a certain point (given the nearly-unlimited resources of the government vis-a-vis most individuals).


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## Acela150

Anderson said:


> Honestly, this is the sort of situation where I wish overly-aggressive prosecutors had to pay defense costs after a certain point (given the nearly-unlimited resources of the government vis-a-vis most individuals).



I follow your point. But I say give the bill to the Attorney's begging for him to be charged. Tom Kline and other. They are the ones who begged for him to be charged. 

Here's my prediction. The State AG Josh Shapiro has appealed and I'm going to guess the charges will be reinstated again, causing this poor ******* more hell to go through.


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## daleinkansas

This is off topic, but when I was 16 I and another 16 year old ran a 6000lbs steam engine (Ottaway), and 4 passenger cars in a shopping center parking lot. IT had no, I repeat, no brakes, With excited kids 100+ running around crossing over the tracks ahead of it, I could not sleep at night always wondering what would have happened if we had hit some kid and broke his leg or killed him. But times were different in the 60's.


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