# Carolinian #79



## smh12345 (Jan 4, 2012)

Good morning

Apologies for starting a new topic on something that is possibly searchable throughout the forums, but it's been difficult to find a clear answer on the following questions:

I am taking the Carolinian down from NY to Charlotte. I've heard mixed reviews on the quality of the train, regarding coach seating vs business class.

-Is the seating really more "comfortable" and "bigger" in business class?

-Are their electrical outlet at each seat in coach?

-Is business class overall less crowded and comfortable in that aspect?

It's $50 for the upgrade, which I don't mind paying, I don't often take trips of this length on the train--but who wants to pay a dime for anything that isn't worth a dime, or $50 in this case.

Much appreciated.


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## MrEd (Jan 4, 2012)

I don't think its worth $50. Most coach will have electrical outlets and WIFI. If you can walk to cafe, you will save $42 on the trip.


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## smh12345 (Jan 4, 2012)

MrEd said:


> I don't think its worth $50. Most coach will have electrical outlets and WIFI. If you can walk to cafe, you will save $42 on the trip.


sorry i don't follow--if i can walk to the cafe???

thanks


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## John Bobinyec (Jan 4, 2012)

In my experience, the coach seats are too close together. There is scant legroom. They remind me of commuter coaches - okay for a short trip. The seats in business class have more legroom. Business class also affords complimentary drinks - or at least it used to. You'll have to decide whether or not it's worth the extra money or not.

Enjoy your trip.

John Bobinyec


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## afigg (Jan 4, 2012)

smh12345 said:


> MrEd said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think its worth $50. Most coach will have electrical outlets and WIFI. If you can walk to cafe, you will save $42 on the trip.
> ...


I don't follow either. To answer your questions, there will be electrical outlets at the seats in both the Amfleet coach and business class cars. The Carolinian runs with the 60 seat 2x2 full length business class car, the last I checked. Business class seats will have more legroom, should be a bit more comfortable, but not wider than coach. Coach class seats have decent legroom and width, close to what you get in business class on domestic air travel, so they are not uncomfortable. You also get free 8 oz soda cans in business class (at the café car), but that is such a minor perk, I really don't know why they bother. Business class typically can be less crowded than coach, but both could be full on the busy city pairs of the journey.

From NYP to Charlotte is a long haul. If I were taking that long a trip on a Amfleet I car, I would go for business class, but that is only what I would do.


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## jb64 (Jan 4, 2012)

smh12345 said:


> MrEd said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think its worth $50. Most coach will have electrical outlets and WIFI. If you can walk to cafe, you will save $42 on the trip.
> ...


Not sure about the dollar amounts, but I think he was trying to say that if you go purchase the drink yourself instead of the free one you get in business class it will save you money. In other words, I think he is saying that he doesn't feel there is enough difference to justify the cost.


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## busboy (Jan 5, 2012)

I've taken that same train many times and ridden in business class and coach. For me, I don't think it's worth the extra to upgrade. I can't discern any difference between the coach and business class seats, one is just as comfortable as the other. They say business has a bit more legroom, but it wasn't noticable to me. The only reason to upgrade to business class is because it might be less crowded up there. When I rode business, most people had two seats to themselves. But depending on when you travel, that might not always be the case.

So save your 50 dollars.


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## jenny (May 15, 2012)

We just took the 79 from Baltimore to Cary NC. It was awful. Dirty, crowded, late and very uncomfortable seats even though we upgraded to business. Nothing like the pictures they show on line. My husband & I both had back problems for days afterwards from the terrible seating. We will never do this again. Did I mention dirty!


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## jhjr (May 15, 2012)

I've ridden the Carolinian a bunch, but usually on short hops between Raleigh and Charlotte. The advantages of business class in my mind are cleaner restrooms and the cabin is usually quieter.


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## Shawn Ryu (May 15, 2012)

jb64 said:


> smh12345 said:
> 
> 
> > MrEd said:
> ...


Yea, that 50 dollars could buy you 15 cans of soda or so. I doubt anyone will drink that many cans during the trip.


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## Swadian Hardcore (May 16, 2012)

jenny said:


> We just took the 79 from Baltimore to Cary NC. It was awful. Dirty, crowded, late and very uncomfortable seats even though we upgraded to business. Nothing like the pictures they show on line. My husband & I both had back problems for days afterwards from the terrible seating. We will never do this again. Did I mention dirty!


This site is not owned or operated by Amtrak. Read the disclaimer! Hope you actually read the replies!


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## xyzzy (May 16, 2012)

79/80 have been assigned mostly Amfleet I coaches since inception. In the beginning that meant 84-seat coaches, although seating density has loosened up a little since then. It is a quirk of history that 89/90 usually operate with Amfleet II coaches. People who live at stations in NC/VA served by both 79/80 and 89/90 will usually choose 89/90 for this reason.

As for business class, I have seen 79/80 assigned 100% straight Amfleet I (in which case business class passengers get the same seating as everyone else)... or business class are put in one Amfleet II coach... or even a rare club-dinette with the coveted 1x2 seats is assigned. Luck of the draw.


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## MARC Rider (May 16, 2012)

My experience with 79/80 and 89/90 has been such that I would pay the extra.

On 79/80 (Carolinian), the coaches are Amfleet 1, 80 seaters, and the BCare hte 60 seater Amfleet 1. In that case, BC is clearly more roomy, plus, there's a better chance that the crowds will be less and you'll be able to have 2 seats for yourself. On my last trip, the coaches were packed solid on a warm day, and despite the A/C, the cars reeked, which wasn't the case in BC.

On 89/90 (The Palmetto), 60 seater Amfleet II coaches are available (though they have an Amfleet I coach, too, for people going shorter distances), and the BC is the same 60 seater Amfleet I. In that case, BC doesn't have an advantage in roominess of the seats, but I still prefer it because it's usually less crowded.

In general, I don't bother with BC on the NEC, unless it's a real crowded travel time and I want to increase the chance I can sit with my traveling companions. Maybe for a trip was WAS to BOS. And if I'm taking 66/67 overnight, I'll spring for BC, as that train has the 2+1 seating, the seats recline further, there are the legrests, and the windows have curtains. The same is true for the Vermonter. On the other hand, the Pennsylvanian abandoned the 2+1 club BC seating for a 60 seater Amfleet I, while the coaches are (mostly) 60 seat Amfleet II, so I think there's no advantage to BC unless you're traveling during a busy period.

In my mind, one of the main things you're getting from an accommodation upgrade is less crowding. The other stuff is just icing on the cake.


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## PRR 60 (May 16, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> jenny said:
> 
> 
> > We just took the 79 from Baltimore to Cary NC. It was awful. Dirty, crowded, late and very uncomfortable seats even though we upgraded to business. Nothing like the pictures they show on line. My husband & I both had back problems for days afterwards from the terrible seating. We will never do this again. Did I mention dirty!
> ...


I see nothing in *jenny*'s post that assumes this is an Amtrak site. In fact, "_...they show on line._ " clearly indicates that she knows this is not an Amtrak site. She had a lousy trip and she's venting. That is her right.


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## Swadian Hardcore (May 16, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > jenny said:
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She has the right to vent, but I have the right to get angry about the venting, too!


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## Anthony (May 16, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> PRR 60 said:
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> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


People are welcome to talk about bad experiences just like the good experiences -- it's too bad that most who do, though, get torn apart five different ways and then don't come back.


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## pennyk (May 16, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> She has the right to vent, but I have the right to get angry about the venting, too!


Why on earth would you get angry about someone venting about a problem? Just because you have the "right" to get angry does not mean it is the kind and considerate thing to do. Getting angry at jenny served no constructive purpose other than to possibly upset jenny and some other AU members.


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## JayPea (May 16, 2012)

Anthony said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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> > PRR 60 said:
> ...



I've always thought this aspect of AU is unfortunate. I've often wondered how many posters have been turned off by getting chewed up and spit out for daring to post something that others have deemed disagreeable. Rodney King said it best when he said "Can't we all just get along?"


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## AmtrakBlue (May 16, 2012)

pennyk said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > She has the right to vent, but I have the right to get angry about the venting, too!
> ...


**Like**


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## M Hill (Apr 17, 2013)

_I have ridden the Carolinian, Durham to Philly, on numerous occasions. Never once has this train been clean, well equipped, with proper temperature control and on-time performance. Not once! I will also add that the people who staff this train are consistently rude, indifferent to passenger concerns, and, to put it bluntly, lazy. They congregate in the cafe car and hide out....while the restrooms remain unsightly and foul smelling. If I had options for travel, I would never ride this train again. _


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## TVRM610 (Apr 17, 2013)

I've also ridden the Carolonian many times (most recently last month from Rocky Mount NC to Trenton NJ. Had a great and friendly car host, had a great and friendly lounge car attendant, and Conductors seemed nice. I remember using the restrooms and remember being surprised at how clean they were despite the train being very full.

In all my trips on this train (at least 6 one way trips over the past few years) I remember one grumpy car host. Other than that... I've either had better luck than you or your negative views are highly exaggerated. Oh and my train was on time into Trenton (I think it left 20 minutes late from Rocky Mount).


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## Hill (Apr 17, 2013)

To the poster riding Rocky Mount to Trenton, glad to know you had good experience on the train. Mine was consistenly awful. And, no, I did not exaggerate in my review. On three trips, two other companions were riding with me and all three of us agreed then, and agree now, it was a miserable experience. As I said before, if I had other options (and I don't, because of the nature of my work....), I would certainly not set foot on this train again.

I will add that I am a longtime train passenger, have ridden Amtrak trains out west and in the south for years....and rarely had a negative experience. It is this specific train's personnel and management that are at the root of the problem. Poor, at best.


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## TVRM610 (Apr 17, 2013)

Guest Hill. I've had bad experiences on trains so I don't doubt... But what made all 3 trips miserable for you?

In general... I find bad crews to be the exception rather than the norm these days.


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## Palmland (Apr 17, 2013)

MARC Rider said:


> My experience with 79/80 and 89/90 has been such that I would pay the extra.
> On 79/80 (Carolinian), the coaches are Amfleet 1, 80 seaters, and the BCare hte 60 seater Amfleet 1. In that case, BC is clearly more roomy, plus, there's a better chance that the crowds will be less and you'll be able to have 2 seats for yourself. On my last trip, the coaches were packed solid on a warm day, and despite the A/C, the cars reeked, which wasn't the case in BC.
> 
> On 89/90 (The Palmetto), 60 seater Amfleet II coaches are available (though they have an Amfleet I coach, too, for people going shorter distances), and the BC is the same 60 seater Amfleet I. In that case, BC doesn't have an advantage in roominess of the seats, but I still prefer it because it's usually less crowded.
> ...


As a frequent Palmetto customer, MARC Rider has it right. It's all about avoiding crowded, unpleasant coaches on a long trip. Certainly not necessary though on a short haul NEC segment.


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## VentureForth (Apr 17, 2013)

The one time I rode business class on the Carolinian, the coach attendant for the Business Class was ruder than snot. She was abrasive and unhelpful. Coffee was ONLY served between certain stations.

I only rode BC because it was a sold out train (including BC) and it was a short jaunt from Kannapolis to Selma.


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## abcnews (Apr 17, 2013)

Business class on the Carolinian is very nice - and I think better than the Northeast Regionals. Clean car, bathroom, good crews, friendly service. But I was in BC.

Perhaps Business Class is worth the upgrade.


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## me_little_me (Apr 17, 2013)

jenny said:


> We just took the 79 from Baltimore to Cary NC. It was awful. Dirty, crowded, late and very uncomfortable seats even though we upgraded to business. Nothing like the pictures they show on line. My husband & I both had back problems for days afterwards from the terrible seating. We will never do this again. Did I mention dirty!


Interesting. We went the opposite way last Friday. We originally had Cary -> Baltimore but we bought additional rickets (and so had 2 reservations) from Salisbury->Cary. Because we were going to Baltimore, we were put in the last car. This one was furthest from the cafe but it also meant nobody walking through the car and restrooms used only by car passengers. They stayed cleaner much longer but of course since no Amtrak people cleaned them en route, they slowly deteriorated but not to the point of being unusable.

Can you explain "dirty"? Trash? Condition of restrooms?

Seats were comfortable during the trip and I also have a bad back.

Conductor said that the southbound is "always late" but we arrived ahead of schedule going north. Very nice trip in coach. Wifi was weak or dead in a few areas but when it worked, it was good and in VA was excellent.


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## m. hill (May 13, 2013)

Haven ridden durham to philly and back, twice recently. always BC. A BC hostess, Shona, was terrific, but the coach smelled fouly of sewage. Avoid club car food from their microwave. Yuck. Seats were fine. WIFI ok. (south to northbound). On a recent north to south run, the BC host (a male) went to sleep for long periods between stops. Several of us took pictures of him, snoring away and sent these to Amtrak. Lousy experience.


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## xyzzy (May 13, 2013)

MARC Rider said:


> My experience with 79/80 and 89/90 has been such that I would pay the extra.
> On 79/80 (Carolinian), the coaches are Amfleet 1, 80 seaters, and the BCare hte 60 seater Amfleet 1. In that case, BC is clearly more roomy, plus, there's a better chance that the crowds will be less and you'll be able to have 2 seats for yourself. On my last trip, the coaches were packed solid on a warm day, and despite the A/C, the cars reeked, which wasn't the case in BC.
> 
> On 89/90 (The Palmetto), 60 seater Amfleet II coaches are available (though they have an Amfleet I coach, too, for people going shorter distances), and the BC is the same 60 seater Amfleet I. In that case, BC doesn't have an advantage in roominess of the seats, but I still prefer it because it's usually less crowded.
> ...


To bring this thread up-to-date: the exact numbers these days are that Amfleet I coaches on 79/80 have 72 seats (reduced, thankfully, from 84 seats in the original design of Amfleet in the 1970s). Business class on 79/80 has 62 seats. Amfleet II coaches have 59 seats, whether sold as business class or not. Therefore, business class on 79/80 offers a little more legroom than regular coach -- but it's not the difference between night and day. Business class on 89/90 offers no additional legroom. If you have a choice between 79/80 and 89/90, take 89/90.

That said, Amtrak will occasionally substitute a Club-Dinette on either train -- and then some lucky business class passengers will get to sit in the 2x1 seating section. Sweet.

As to the April 17 post, everyone would argue that there is room for improvement on Amtrak. Megabus has similar problems. For that matter, so do the airlines that I fly every week.


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## TimSpencer (May 13, 2013)

xyzzy said:


> That said, Amtrak will occasionally substitute a Club-Dinette on either train -- and then some lucky business class passengers will get to sit in the 2x1 seating section. Sweet.


is there a way to find out if 2x1 business cars will be used on the day I travel? (on a Saturday)

thanks!


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## xyzzy (May 13, 2013)

It happens only a few times a year, and I don't know any way to predict it.


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## Laura Silvers (Jun 25, 2013)

I have ridden on both the Carolinian Train 79 and Train 80. Yesterday I came back to DC on Train 80 in coach and it was horrendous. It was so noisy and cold. The blower on the air conditioner was much too high. I wasn't the only one that was cold. Others complained and the train attendant turned the blower off. However, it was toward the end of the trip. The same is true on Train 79. I suspect that turning the AC full blast is standard for Amtrak. .

In both Business and Coach and on both Train routes, I found the bathrooms to be filthy. The staff could care less. When I complained, I was told to try other bathrooms on the train. They might be better.

I have taken this this trip 3 times in the last two months and it was always late. Yesterday we were 50 minutes late.

The only advantage to Business class is that it is more quiet and the seats are bigger. It is worth the cost difference for those reasons. However, I am considering flying next time!


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## Ryan (Jun 25, 2013)

Did you call customer service and complain?

If so, what did they say?

If not, why not? Amtrak can't fix problems that they don't know about.


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## John Bobinyec (Jun 25, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Did you call customer service and complain?
> If so, what did they say?
> 
> If not, why not? Amtrak can't fix problems that they don't know about.


How far should a complaint be taken? She did say she complained to the on-board crew about both the A/C and the bathrooms. We who have ridden Amtrak for years know that complaining to just the on-board crew will usually yield little change. We also know that the train can be very cold at times, and so we bring sweaters and jackets along, especially to the diner.

Are the on-board staff required to fill out any kind of report on conditions?

jb

PS I've often thought that Amtrak should hire independent contractors (me) to ride all of their trains anonymously and report accurately on conditions, staff, etc...


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## Ryan (Jun 25, 2013)

I'd sign up for that job! 

I agree that complaining on board can yield poor results, that's why I suggested the call to customer service.

We've seen people get fired/reassigned because of complaints to customer service, so it can work.

It certainly has a better chance of working than complaining about it here.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 25, 2013)

Still wish Amtrak would go back to a Chief of On Board Service on LD Routes (this is a State train but it's 13 Hours!!! The Adirondack could use it too!) but as a Management Position,(Exempt/Salaried) not Union! Most of us remember when they tried it and IME All they did was Eat in the Diner, talk a little with Pax in the Lounge, Walk through the Cars a couple of Times and go to their Room to Rest and Hide! But of course I guess this would involve Negotiations with the Unions and also Add Cost, so how about a $1 charge per Ticket to help cover these Costs and help Improve On Board Service and insure Consistency, Amtrak's Biggest Problem besides Congress!


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## me_little_me (Jun 25, 2013)

My experiences on the east long distance trains (Silvers, Crescent, Carolinian) is that the customers are pretty bad about using the bathrooms and the staff almost never cleans them but instead just locks them when they get really bad to eliminate complaints.


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## afigg (Jun 25, 2013)

me_little_me said:


> My experiences on the east long distance trains (Silvers, Crescent, Carolinian) is that the customers are pretty bad about using the bathrooms and the staff almost never cleans them but instead just locks them when they get really bad to eliminate complaints.


The Carolinian is not a long distance train, but a medium distance state supported corridor train. It also has the highest total number of passengers among all the once a day corridor trains with 306.4K passengers in FY2012. The NEC Regional trains that run from NPN to BOS probably carry more passengers but their numbers are not broken out in the monthly reports. The Carolinian covers 704 miles with a major turnover on its route, so there are a lot of passengers to mess up the restrooms over the 13 hour trip.

If the onboard crew won't keep the restrooms clean enroute at a minimum level, perhaps Amtrak should consider a quick pit stop at Staples Mill or Raleigh to have a local crew do a quick clean and restock of the restrooms. The problem is that the restrooms may be back to nasty 50 miles later.

As for the on-time performance of the Carolinian, the route will see a number of track and capacity improvements over the next 4-5 years with the upgrades to the Piedmont corridor and in Virginia. It has taken a long time to get the HSIPR funded projects going.


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## TVRM610 (Jun 25, 2013)

The cars need to be kept on the cool side on a summer day. Everytime the train stops the doors are open for long periods of time letting in warm air. The sun shining through all of those windows can heat things up quickly. I've been on trains where the heat got the best and the cars air couldn't keep up. Trust me... It's completely miserable. Any Amtrak employee with experience knows this and will intentionally keep the cars on the cool side. (I'm speaking specifically of Single Level Cars).


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## xyzzy (Jun 25, 2013)

afigg said:


> As for the on-time performance of the Carolinian, the route will see a number of track and capacity improvements over the next 4-5 years with the upgrades to the Piedmont corridor and in Virginia. It has taken a long time to get the HSIPR funded projects going.


The most urgent need is installation of the three crossovers between Rocky Mount and the NC/VA line. (79, 80, 89, 90, and 92 all transit this stretch of track within a period of hours.) Unfortunately CSX and NCDOT have not been able to agree on project implementation even though NCDOT has hard funding for it.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2013)

why is the 79 always late southbound - there are a number of us who live in charlotte and work in Greensboro and its doable if the 79 gets to Greensboro on time.


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## afigg (Nov 18, 2013)

Guest said:


> why is the 79 always late southbound - there are a number of us who live in charlotte and work in Greensboro and its doable if the 79 gets to Greensboro on time.


Random checks of different days over the past several months (skipping over the track work service disruption days) on Amtrak Status Map archives shows the southbound Carolinian is often getting delayed between the Richmond Staples Mill and Rocky Mount stops. Often hit delays between Alexandria and Richmond and south of Rocky Mount, but the trip between RVR and RMT is where it often runs late. If you read back a page or two in this thread, you will see posts about the funded track projects in VA and NC north of Raleigh that are in limbo.

NC recently gave up on a rail-rail grade separation project in Charlotte and shifted grant funds to make sure the rest of the selected track upgrade projects, the new Raleigh station, and additional rolling stock refurbs were covered. The best bet for reliable later service from Greensboro to Charlotte is the expansion of Piedmont service to 4 daily trains. I would think they would add a late afternoon/evening Piedmont run. But the additional trains can't be added until the track improvement projects are completed or mostly completed, currently scheduled for 2016 or 2017. If you can wait 3-4 years, there will be better service on the Piedmont corridor.


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