# St. Paul Union Depot



## VentureForth (Aug 28, 2012)

Well from everything that I can see online, it looks like the restoration of the St. Paul Union Depot is moving right along, and perhaps even ahead of schedule. I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion about this here - quite to my suprise. Maybe I haven't looked for it until just now. So, I have a couple of questions about the St. Paul Union Depot and how trains are going to get in and out of the station and what the routing of the Empire Building will be after completion.

This looks to be a beautiful station. Have any St. Paul residents that are members here taken the public tour of the renovations? I'd love to see some more photos!

It looks like the the original platforms were perpendicular to mainline tracks. The trainshed doesn't look near long enough to hold a full EB consist. Looking at the aerial views from google maps, I can't see where there is room to add platforms to the mainline. What's the track proposed to look like? With all the gnashing of teeth grinding over the walk at Sacramento, it looks like this is going to be the case in St. Paul.

Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?


----------



## Ispolkom (Aug 28, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> It looks like the the original platforms were perpendicular to mainline tracks. The trainshed doesn't look near long enough to hold a full EB consist. Looking at the aerial views from google maps, I can't see where there is room to add platforms to the mainline. What's the track proposed to look like? With all the gnashing of teeth grinding over the walk at Sacramento, it looks like this is going to be the case in St. Paul.


I think that you're looking at it wrong. There's no train shed. The concourse (what I think you're misidentifying as the train shed) goes over the platforms perpendicularly. The platforms themselves are parallel to the CP tracks (and the river, if that helps). The platform closest to the CP track is definitely long enough for the Empire Builder. There are some things I don't understand about the design, though. While I welcome the light rail stop out front, and the easy connection to buses, I'm concerned about how automobiles going to and from the station. I don't see how we're going to avoid congestion.

The gnashing of teeth in this case is the design of the light rail line. I've heard many complaints that the light rail stop will be on 4th street, and passengers will have to walk up and through the depot's headhouse (now a restaurant and condos) to get to the concourse. The original design (rejected as two expensive) had the light rail stop on one of the rail platforms, nearer to where buses will stop. I'm agnostic on the issue. Sure, it's a longer walk, but I like entering old buildings like SPUD the way the architect intended, not scuttling in a back way.



> Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?


Yes, the Empire Builder will still use CP's Merriam subdivision. No improvement there.


----------



## TraneMan (Aug 28, 2012)

I took the tour last spring, and I am impressed of how good of a job they hav been doing to this! Here are my photos on Facebook.


----------



## VentureForth (Aug 28, 2012)

I also found this pdf on the proposals. I guess all the trains have always run perpendicular to the concourse. I didn't see any plans for staircases/escalators/elevators from the concorse to the platforms, though. I'll have to check out some of your photos, TraneMan.


----------



## Notelvis (Aug 28, 2012)

There is also a facebook page for the St. Paul renovation project with lots of photographs. Go to FB and search for 'The Union Depot'.

I would provide a link but Facebook is firewalled by my employer. (shhhhhhh, don't tell them about Amtrak Unlimited.)


----------



## VentureForth (Aug 28, 2012)

Notelvis said:


> I would provide a link but Facebook is firewalled by my employer. (shhhhhhh, don't tell them about Amtrak Unlimited.)


Ditto. :giggle:


----------



## TraneMan (Aug 28, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> . I'll have to check out some of your photos, TraneMan.


You'll see the photos of the stairs and there are escalators/elevators too.

This

d today, and it's a good one!


----------



## NW cannonball (Aug 31, 2012)

One of these days I'll take the bus or walk to downtown Saint Paul and see what's happening there.

Hoping that we won't get to be calling the refurbished station "SPUD"


----------



## VentureForth (Aug 31, 2012)

Neat stuff. A couple of things that pop out:

- Amtrak service delayed until next year, date unknown. That's always risky.

- Greyhound pulled out. Wonder why.

- Same company that operates Chicago Union Station will manage this one which concerned me a bit. BUT a separate private enterprise (somehow related to bike storage) will offer showers for travelers! Finally someone it!

- First class lounge is as far away from the boarding area as possible in the concourse.

- No talk about whether the sky walk to the post office will be public or even used, or perhaps removed.

- DON'T wear a dress on the tours!


----------



## NW cannonball (Aug 31, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Neat stuff. A couple of things that pop out:
> 
> - Amtrak service delayed until next year, date unknown. That's always risky.
> 
> ...


- Showers for travelers - hey the last time I saw that was in Chicago in the early 70's or so -- useful if one dared.

- Amtrak service "delayed" - most of us locals never knew it was even promised - surely not promised for any specific year. The SPUD has been refurbished before - nothing much came of it. Local media and even advocates of the project mostly ignored this project for the last 5 years or so, most recent coverage was some pix of the work, but no word on what the place might serve as or for. The light rail connection isn't scheduled for completion until early 2014.

There might could -possibly- be a commuter rail project ( the "Red Rock" line) in a decade or so, and maybe service to or thru Rochester MN in another decade. Maybe sooner, depending - but not even probable short-term. If the corridor MSP-DUluth ever happens that will logically stop where the Northstar stops now, by Target Field - and until the Northstar serves Saint Cloud, the Northstar is unlikely to meet its ridership goals.

Hoping some of the lowertown favorite eating places like Tanpopo might be able to lease space- but likely too pricey for most local eateries to even consider.

- Surprised me that Greyhound was ever in - now, there is, or was, a little-used shelter on University Avenue labeled "Greyhound" but there's not been any Greyhound service in downtown Saint Paul for years - maybe decades unless they used to stop at that little shelter - which is gone or relocated account of the light rail construction anyhow - or maybe there's some such thing somewhere - but riding the city bus or walking the stretch from Midway to downtown Saint Paul a few times a week - never seen it.. Want Greyhound, go the Minneapolis downtown and find it there if you can.

Megabus and Jefferson lines are the prime intercity bus services here, Jefferson - by their website - serves the U of M, Mall of America, the old downtown Minneapolis bus depot, the Airport, and the Amtrak Depot - the current one. Megabus stops in Downtown Minneapolis near the Metrodome, and on some trips at the U of M. The dog I haven't checked on in the last 15 years - Seems they have some schedules here -- not likely to try them with Amtrak, Megabus and Jefferson available - maybe I'm biased.

Megabus won't sign on to any station project, they proudly refuse to pay for a place to pick up pax. Jefferson lines might pay for a presence - but anyone in Saint Paul who wants their service can take the city bus or the light rail to the airport to catch their buses.

- There will be a First Class lounge? There's a small sort of one about as big as my small living room at the current Midway station - never used it though I've travelled sleeper class from MSP a few times recently. Hope the Wifi is better than at WAS.

- Won't wear a dress even if I take the tour - which I might -seems there's a lot I don't know about this project. Will probably wear jeans and/or overhauls.

Mostly what I care about this project is that sometime in the next 5 years I might have to take the city bus (or the new light rail) for a half hour to get there, rather than walking for 15 minutes to get to the present station.

Sorry to sound such a skeptic - SPUD is a beautiful old depot - but out-of-the-way for most travelers - about as much out-of-the-way as the current Midway depot. Maybe the new light rail line that is scheduled to start running in 2014 might make the connections better - hope so.

- Sky walk to the Post Office -- huh -- there's a big "For Sale" sign on the Post Office - if that means the grand 1930's building on Kellogg. No clue who or what the new tenant might be or what the building will be used for.

Hope the project succeeds.


----------



## cirdan (Aug 31, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> - Same company that operates Chicago Union Station will manage this one which concerned me a bit. BUT a separate private enterprise (somehow related to bike storage) will offer showers for travelers! Finally someone it!


What exactly does a company that manages a station do?

I guess Amtrak still runs the important stuff such as ticket offices, bagage handling etc.

Does the managment company look after cleaning, maintenance etc?

Does it manage the leases of the retail outlets maybe?


----------



## VentureForth (Aug 31, 2012)

Yes. A management company deals with the tennants - which according to the video there will be more than 30 private businesses located inside the station. In addition, they will tend to the booking of special events to be held in the Head House and even the Concourse. They would probably steer clear of any Amtrak or rail operations like baggage, tickets, etc.

NW Cannonball - take a look at a PDF I have linked a few posts up for talk about Greyhound. I can't find the original dates promised. I guess when they're done, they'll start service.


----------



## The Davy Crockett (Aug 31, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> One of these days I'll take the bus or walk to downtown Saint Paul and see what's happening there.
> 
> Hoping that we won't get to be calling the refurbished station "SPUD"


Hmmmm... 8, Idaho, SPUD... or... 7, car, SPUD? :giggle:


----------



## Nathanael (Sep 2, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> There are some things I don't understand about the design, though. While I welcome the light rail stop out front, and the easy connection to buses, I'm concerned about how automobiles going to and from the station. I don't see how we're going to avoid congestion.


1. There's a "secret underpass" right in front of the headhouse which is for drop-off/pick-up/taxi use.

2. There's additional drop-off/pick-up on Kellogg Blvd.

3. There's a giant parking garage being rebuilt UNDERNEATH the train deck. I'm not quite sure where the access points to this are, but I think they're on the north-south streets.

I don't think there will be a problem with automobile traffic. Remember, this was one of the most modern of the "old" stations.


----------



## Nathanael (Sep 2, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Neat stuff. A couple of things that pop out:
> 
> - Amtrak service delayed until next year, date unknown. That's always risky.


It was always supposed to be "next year", since the Depot finishing date is sometime in December and Amtrak wouldn't move right before Christmas! "Date unknown" is annoying, however.



> - Greyhound pulled out. Wonder why.


Greyhound is abandoning service to St. Paul, having decided to run all its buses direct to its terminal in Minneapolis.



> - Same company that operates Chicago Union Station will manage this one which concerned me a bit. BUT a separate private enterprise (somehow related to bike storage) will offer showers for travelers! Finally someone it!
> 
> - First class lounge is as far away from the boarding area as possible in the concourse.


Several people have complained about this.



> - No talk about whether the sky walk to the post office will be public or even used, or perhaps removed.


*OLD* information says the sky walk will remain intact -- and will be public if and only if the post office or the successors to the post office decide to have public things in the building.



> - DON'T wear a dress on the tours!


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 2, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> - Surprised me that Greyhound was ever in - now, there is, or was, a little-used shelter on University Avenue labeled "Greyhound" but there's not been any Greyhound service in downtown Saint Paul for years - maybe decades unless they used to stop at that little shelter - which is gone or relocated account of the light rail construction anyhow - or maybe there's some such thing somewhere - but riding the city bus or walking the stretch from Midway to downtown Saint Paul a few times a week - never seen it.. Want Greyhound, go the Minneapolis downtown and find it there if you can.
> 
> Megabus and Jefferson lines are the prime intercity bus services here, Jefferson - by their website - serves the U of M, Mall of America, the old downtown Minneapolis bus depot, the Airport, and the Amtrak Depot - the current one. Megabus stops in Downtown Minneapolis near the Metrodome, and on some trips at the U of M. The dog I haven't checked on in the last 15 years - Seems they have some schedules here -- not likely to try them with Amtrak, Megabus and Jefferson available - maybe I'm biased.
> 
> ...


See this: http://extranet.greyhound.com/Revsup/schedules2/pageset.html. Looks like Greyhound is gonna skip St. Paul. They ain't that bad and I really hate Magabus. Personally my preference for MSP is: Amtrak, Jefferson Lines MCI, Greyhound MCI, Greyhound other, Jefferson Lines other, Megabus. Though the EB looks to be suffering tons of delays, it's getting much better but when winter comes then OTP gonna drop like crazy again.


----------



## Nathanael (Sep 3, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> - Amtrak service "delayed" - most of us locals never knew it was even promised - surely not promised for any specific year.


It was promised for 2013 as of the point when the funding came through. So not delayed yet. I have no idea what the holdup is on getting an agreement with Amtrak, but I have heard that everyone working at Midway is eager to relocate....



> The SPUD has been refurbished before - nothing much came of it.


Only a small *part* of it had been refurbished. It look Ramsey County a very long time to actually get ownership of the whole thing; it had been broken up into multiple parcels. Ramsey County is now refurbishing bits which haven't been refurbished since the blackout paint went up in World War II.



> There might could -possibly- be a commuter rail project ( the "Red Rock" line) in a decade or so,


Hastings, MN hopes. If it's built, it's also supposed to run through as an express from SPUD to Minneapolis (to Target Field).



> Jefferson lines might pay for a presence - but anyone in Saint Paul who wants their service can take the city bus or the light rail to the airport to catch their buses.


Jefferson Lines is moving in; they are confirmed.



> Mostly what I care about this project is that sometime in the next 5 years I might have to take the city bus (or the new light rail) for a half hour to get there, rather than walking for 15 minutes to get to the present station.
> 
> Sorry to sound such a skeptic - SPUD is a beautiful old depot - but out-of-the-way for most travelers - about as much out-of-the-way as the current Midway depot.


Not even close. Midway is in a *terrible* location surrounded by industry; you're unusual in being 15 minutes walk from it. (Though it's better since the sidewalks on University Avenue got rebuilt.) SPUD is within walking distance of pretty much all of downtown St. Paul, which is certainly more convenient for visitors, and for people living in Lowertown. Of course neither location is in walking distance of downtown Minneapolis.



> Maybe the new light rail line that is scheduled to start running in 2014 might make the connections better - hope so.


It should. Same time from Minneapolis to SPUD as from Minneapolis to the airport, quicker from the University...



> - Sky walk to the Post Office -- huh -- there's a big "For Sale" sign on the Post Office - if that means the grand 1930's building on Kellogg. No clue who or what the new tenant might be or what the building will be used for.


I think there's no plan for that building yet. The skywalk is going to be ready for anyone who chooses to reuse the post office, but for now it will just sit.



> Hope the project succeeds.


Well, it has to be an improvement on Midway Station! I also hope it gets more train services, more retail, etc. I'm sure Ramsey County will do its best to shake up tenants for the headhouse (that's what they subcontracted to Jones Lang LaSalle), and I have no idea how well they'll do at that.

The station is now the obvious go-to point if there are any additional commuter rail or intercity rail services. Unfortunately all of them are caught in "study hell".


----------



## Nathanael (Sep 3, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?


While the routing will be the same, *times from St. Paul to Chicago will be significantly shorter*, because nearly all of that low-speed trackage will now be west of the station. Of course times from St. Paul to St. Cloud will be longer by the same amount, so there you go.


----------



## PRR 60 (Sep 3, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Finally, Will the routing continue to be the same through the old Midway station or will there be a more efficient way now to get out of town and onto full speed trackage?
> ...


My understanding is that Amtrak would like to use a reversing move at St. Paul so they can enter and exit from the east and use CP directly to and from BNSF to get off of the Minnesota Commercial trackage. This would be similar to the move by the Zephyr at Denver. The FRA is balking at this plan, so they might be stuck with today's route. There is also some thought about adding a stop at one of the Northstar stations near Minneapolis to provide better access for the larger population on the west side of the Twin Cities.


----------



## rrdude (Sep 3, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


*".......There is also some thought about adding a stop at one of the Northstar stations near Minneapolis to provide better access for the larger population on the west side of the Twin Cities. ...." *About the only thing in this whole thread that makes sense, so far as I have read.


----------



## Guest (Sep 3, 2012)

rrdude said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Nathanael said:
> ...


Agreed. Although I live in South Minneapolis, when Amtrak switches from Midway to SPUD, St. Cloud or Red Wing (depending on the direction I'm traveling) will actually be more convenient for me when you consider the parking issues.


----------



## johnny.menhennet (Sep 3, 2012)

Thank you for the video from the SP Forum. I watched it and something I think is great is that they showed the First Class Lounge under construction. This is a good move by Amtrak. Too bad it doesn't happen in more places.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 4, 2012)

Hey thanks for all the info - it's a lot more than what I get from the local media.

Besides the completion of the Northstar to Saint Cloud, and the possible (but problematic) run to Duluth ( no intermediate stops worth much), the Red Rock to Hastings and maybe even Red Wing or even Winona - or a swift run to Rochester and the Mayo -

What other rail or intermodal potential is there for Saint Paul Union Station?

Possibly Mississippi cruise boats.

Quick city bus run to MSP airport already available.

Possibly ( I dream of this but it's real unlikely ) a run down the Minnesota River to Mankato and then all the way to KC starting on the old CNW?

Possibly west into South Dakota on the TCW?

Possibly some way to Eastern Wisconsin north of Milwaukee?

Any other possible corridor routes? Even under unlikely scenarios?


----------



## WICT106 (Sep 4, 2012)

Possible Corridors ? I'd say all along the EB route before branching off to Winnipeg. Tough for there to be any Eastern WI route that doesn't go to MKE. The only two I can think of would go to Sault Sainte Marie, MI, or to Green Bay, WI. Id put the route to Winnipeg into service before offering service to either of those places, though.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 9, 2012)

Winnipeg - half a century ago the GN ran one or two passenger trains MSP to Winnipeg - unlikely now.

What about a branch from La Crosse or Winona to Dubuque and points south or maybe to Des Moines -

Or possibly through Rocford IL?


----------



## jphjaxfl (Sep 9, 2012)

The GN ran the Winnipeg LTD overnight from St Paul to Winnipeg via Alexandria and Crookston. The NP ran a day train from St Paul to Winnipeg via St. Cloud, Manitoba Jct, Grand Forks and Grafton. The Soo Line ran the Winnipeger from St. Paul to Winnipeg via the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis, Detroit Lakes and Thief River Falls. The NP train ended in 1967, the Winnipeger in 1968. A truncated version of the Winnipeg LTD lasted until April 30, 1971. It ran in the Western Star from St Paul to Grand Forks, then via Crookston to Winnipeg. It included a dinercoach from Grand Forks to Winnipeg.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 9, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> The GN ran the Winnipeg LTD overnight from St Paul to Winnipeg via Alexandria and Crookston. The NP ran a day train from St Paul to Winnipeg via St. Cloud, Manitoba Jct, Grand Forks and Grafton. The Soo Line ran the Winnipeger from St. Paul to Winnipeg via the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis, Detroit Lakes and Thief River Falls. The NP train ended in 1967, the Winnipeger in 1968. A truncated version of the Winnipeg LTD lasted until April 30, 1971. It ran in the Western Star from St Paul to Grand Forks, then via Crookston to Winnipeg. It included a dinercoach from Grand Forks to Winnipeg.


Thanks -- the Red River ran only to Grand Forks, then pax would have to catch the later Winnipeg Limited to get from Grand Forks to Winnipeg - really late night early morning hours.

Trying - but can't see how on the current EB schedule there could be a shuttle from Grand Forks to Winnipeg using only one trainset.

It was only a dream anyhow -


----------



## jphjaxfl (Sep 9, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> jphjaxfl said:
> 
> 
> > The GN ran the Winnipeg LTD overnight from St Paul to Winnipeg via Alexandria and Crookston. The NP ran a day train from St Paul to Winnipeg via St. Cloud, Manitoba Jct, Grand Forks and Grafton. The Soo Line ran the Winnipeger from St. Paul to Winnipeg via the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis, Detroit Lakes and Thief River Falls. The NP train ended in 1967, the Winnipeger in 1968. A truncated version of the Winnipeg LTD lasted until April 30, 1971. It ran in the Western Star from St Paul to Grand Forks, then via Crookston to Winnipeg. It included a dinercoach from Grand Forks to Winnipeg.
> ...


The Red River was almost like a commuter or shoppers train that left Grand Forks around 7:30AM and arrived back about midnight. In the days before regional malls, most people in North Dakota and Western Minnesota went to the Twin Cities to shop every few months. For many years the Winnipeg LTD was a totally seperate train that left the main line and ran through Barnesville and Crookston to Winnepeg. It had sleeping cars and a very nice sleeper lounge that served light meals. In the early 1960s, the Red River was cut back to Fargo and the Winnipeg LTD was rerouted through Fargo and Grand Forks. It may have been combined with the Dakotan which was mainly a mail train.


----------



## jebr (Sep 9, 2012)

rrdude said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > Nathanael said:
> ...


Fridley would make the most sense for this. Its Northstar station is one of the least-utilized (if not the least-utilized) on the line, as there's already express bus service in that area that people use. There always seems to be a TON of open parking there.


----------



## Nathanael (Sep 10, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> Any other possible corridor routes? Even under unlikely scenarios?


If the legislature lifts the *ban on studying it* put in by crazy NIMBY suburbanites, the "Dan Patch route" to Northfield, MN -- a two-college town -- would almost certainly be fast-tracked. That would probably go to St. Paul, as there are several ways to do that, and basically no ways to get it to Minneapolis any more.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 10, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > jphjaxfl said:
> ...


Yup, that's how I remember it. Not only shoppers - big business people (bankers, big farmers, and such) from NDak and western Minnesota would take the Red River to the Twin Cities for important business meetings etc.

But now - what plausible market exists on the Winnipeg - Grand Forks - Fargo - MSP run -- maybe shopping? Those Canadian "Loonies" are worth a lot more dollars than what they used to be. There's less sales tax in Minn than in MB

Living in the MSP area I recently (a few decades recently) feel cut off from Canada - it's a long drive or an expensive flight from MSP to Winnipeg or Thunder Bay.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 10, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > Any other possible corridor routes? Even under unlikely scenarios?
> ...


And this route could extend to Rochester MN I think. Lots of passengers do the shuttle from MSP to the big Mayo Clinic there.


----------



## tubaia (Sep 10, 2012)

I just hope they find some services for the new depot (i.e., FOOD) that are willing to stay open for the late night westbound EB departure. At least the current Midway station has vending machines, which the new station may not have in order to keep their tenants happy. Whether it be a late-night diner, fast food, or even a newsstand with snacks, the on-time departure can be a long stretch after supper, and even worse if/when the train is delayed.


----------



## anir dendroica (Sep 11, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > NW cannonball said:
> ...


That would be a challenge. From Northfield the track goes south to Faribault, Albert Lea, and ultimately Ames, IA. To get to Rochester you need to transfer from the UP to the DM&E at Owatonna. None of this is fast track. Maybe four hours to Rochester if lucky, vs. around an hour on the road. Not likely.


----------



## VentureForth (Sep 11, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > Any other possible corridor routes? Even under unlikely scenarios?
> ...


I can't tell for sure, but it looks like this is sort of a bill that could be easily reversed by a different set of representatives. But, yes, NIMBYs are all for progress - so long as it doesn't impose on them. The Dan Patch looks like a good commuter route with plenty of potential ridership.


----------



## Ozark Southern (Sep 11, 2012)

As one of the few big projects in the Midwest right now, the SPUD renovation is a project that very much interests me. My wife and I rode the light rail line back in 2007 from downtown all the way out to the mall and were very impressed. I'm glad to see the Twin Cities really pushing for better transit. Outside of Chicago, transit in the Midwest frankly just sucks.

This project has three things I really admire: it renovates an old building rather than building new, it moves an amenity from a suburban location to downtown, and it establishes new transit connections where they have previously not existed. I'm hoping that the San Francisco of the Midwest can become a model for some other Midwest cities (I'm looking at you, Kansas City) to change how they view transit.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Sep 11, 2012)

San Francisco of the Midwest?  And don't forget St. Louis, they have a pretty nice Public Transportation Network, we really enjoyed riding during our Gathering there two Years ago!

And while it's not really Midwest, The Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex is in the process of Expanding a really Impressive System also, very surprising in this Monument to Urban Sprawl and the Automobile!!  (well, Arlington, thanks to Jerry,"Show Me the Money!" Jones is an exception! :angry2: )


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2012)

Ozark Southern said:


> As one of the few big projects in the Midwest right now, the SPUD renovation is a project that very much interests me. My wife and I rode the light rail line back in 2007 from downtown all the way out to the mall and were very impressed. I'm glad to see the Twin Cities really pushing for better transit. Outside of Chicago, transit in the Midwest frankly just sucks.
> 
> This project has three things I really admire: it renovates an old building rather than building new, it moves an amenity from a suburban location to downtown, and it establishes new transit connections where they have previously not existed. I'm hoping that the San Francisco of the Midwest can become a model for some other Midwest cities (I'm looking at you, Kansas City) to change how they view transit.


I am trying to be optimistic that the move will increase ridership even though it's further from the greater population areas of the region and will pose challenges (as well as costs) to folks who need to drive and park.

The current Midway Depot is not in a suburban location. It is in an industrial and commercial area of St. Paul, located "midway" between downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul. The new lightrail extension goes almost as close there as the lightrail will go to SPUD. It's really too bad they couldn't have the lightrail actually go INTO the renovated SPUD.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 13, 2012)

Guest said:


> Ozark Southern said:
> 
> 
> > As one of the few big projects in the Midwest right now, the SPUD renovation is a project that very much interests me. My wife and I rode the light rail line back in 2007 from downtown all the way out to the mall and were very impressed. I'm glad to see the Twin Cities really pushing for better transit. Outside of Chicago, transit in the Midwest frankly just sucks.
> ...


Thanks, Ozark.

I think that the success of the light rail projects I've ridden is based on 4 things -- access to local attractions - access to commuters - access to airport - access to corridor or long distance rail.

Chicago would be a prime example - always a railroad town. Now the EL feeds ORD and MDW and CHI and most commuter rail where you can get to various places in Wisconsin and even Indiana after 10 PM. And can get to any museum or hotel from airport or train station easily.

NY likewise - more or less - some of the airport connections are slow sometimes.

The light rail in Seattle serves the airport, King Street Amtrak station, both local big league stadiums and all local transit.

What little I understand of Miami - similar, and likely to get better with current projects.

Washington DC - working on the "Silver line" maybe will get finished -- but even now Metro will get you from DCA to any govt agency headquarters - all the museums - and Washington Union Station - but not to the big far away Dulles airport.

Here in MSP - the first light rail line hits the "Mall of America" , main airport, downtown with all the local big sports and music venues.

The new downtown Saint Paul Depot renovation has -- a fast bus to MSP airport - almost no local nightlife or attractions - except for the moderate convention trade - and only the NHL saints for a sports attraction. It's fighting uphill. A bit like downtown northshore Jacksonville Florida, except there's a few thousand people who live downtown Saint Paul and a few (some really good - restaurants - try Tanpopo or Ruam Mit or even Cosseta's)

I've got no clue if the new place will make it or not -- hope so - especially with the new light rail line - but not betting on it.

The place (forget the name - on Jacksonville riverfront ) seems to be doing OK despite similar problems -- maybe it will work - if it does - I love walking the riverfront on the Mississippi in Saint Paul -- liked walking the riverfront in Jacksonville last month - like walking riverfront most anywhere.

For me, right now, the one-mile walk to the old Midway Amtrak station is so convenient that the new thing is just a dream.


----------



## anir dendroica (Sep 13, 2012)

I like the idea of boarding/detraining at a big old downtown depot instead of the glorified shack that is Midway Station. That said, moving the stop eastward to SPUD makes the large, highly populated gap between St. Cloud and MSP stations even larger. I'd be in favor of adding a stop somewhere like Fridley, preferably with a big parking lot. It's pretty common for LD trains to have multiple stops in large metropolitan areas - e.g. Chicago-Glenview, Portland-Vancouver(WA), and Martinez-Richmond-Emeryville-Oakland.

Mark


----------



## zephyr17 (Sep 13, 2012)

anir dendroica said:


> I like the idea of boarding/detraining at a big old downtown depot instead of the glorified shack that is Midway Station. That said, moving the stop eastward to SPUD makes the large, highly populated gap between St. Cloud and MSP stations even larger. I'd be in favor of adding a stop somewhere like Fridley, preferably with a big parking lot. It's pretty common for LD trains to have multiple stops in large metropolitan areas - e.g. Chicago-Glenview, Portland-Vancouver(WA), and Martinez-Richmond-Emeryville-Oakland.
> 
> Mark


Tacoma-Tukwila-Seattle-Edmonds-Everett


----------



## Nathanael (Sep 14, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> The new downtown Saint Paul Depot renovation has -- a fast bus to MSP airport - almost no local nightlife or attractions - except for the moderate convention trade


Well, there's the farmers' market.



> - and only the NHL saints for a sports attraction. It's fighting uphill. A bit like downtown northshore Jacksonville Florida, except there's a few thousand people who live downtown Saint Paul and a few (some really good - restaurants - try Tanpopo or Ruam Mit or even Cosseta's)


The few thousand people help.



> I've got no clue if the new place will make it or not -- hope so - especially with the new light rail line - but not betting on it.


With the light rail line, which is going to be heavily used, I think it will do just fine. I'm not sure how it will do in the interval before the light rail line opens.



> The place (forget the name - on Jacksonville riverfront ) seems to be doing OK despite similar problems -- maybe it will work - if it does - I love walking the riverfront on the Mississippi in Saint Paul -- liked walking the riverfront in Jacksonville last month - like walking riverfront most anywhere.


They are trying to make the walk from the station to the riverfront nicer.  It's a bit scary as it is.


----------



## Ozark Southern (Sep 14, 2012)

jimhudson said:


> San Francisco of the Midwest?  And don't forget St. Louis, they have a pretty nice Public Transportation Network, we really enjoyed riding during our Gathering there two Years ago!
> 
> And while it's not really Midwest, The Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex is in the process of Expanding a really Impressive System also, very surprising in this Monument to Urban Sprawl and the Automobile!!  (well, Arlington, thanks to Jerry,"Show Me the Money!" Jones is an exception! :angry2: )


Yeah, in many ways, the Twin Cities are becoming what the Bay Area was in the 90s: a gay-friendly center of business and education, whose citizens are conscious of social and environmental issues, and are ditching the cars in favour of bicycles and public transit.

I'm glad you were impressed by St. Louis. It really is the best city in Missouri, not just in transportation but also in its historical sites, its museums, its public parks, and its cultural events. It has the best transit system of any Missouri city, and the people actually use it. Sometimes during rush hour it's actually pretty difficult to find standing room on Metrolink, let alone a seat. It doesn't compare to Chicago or Washington in coverage and frequencies, but it does well for the people who use it. As a visitor, I've never felt the need to have a car in St. Louis, and that means a lot for how well the system works.

The Twin Cities was much the same way. We drove to Minneapolis, but once we were there, the car stayed in the hotel parking lot the whole time, and we used public transit or walked everywhere. When transit works, people use it. It's sad when one man can hold up progress for 100,000 people, but I can certainly understand why Arlington would be afraid to lose the rather substantial income Cowboys Stadium provides.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 14, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > The new downtown Saint Paul Depot renovation has -- a fast bus to MSP airport - almost no local nightlife or attractions - except for the moderate convention trade
> ...


Yeah, Jacksonville "downtown - north of the river" was a bit scary between the "transit center" and my hotel on the riverfront -- Saint Paul - no such problem. Wishing Jacksonville could run their skytrain thing on weekends. OTOH catching the local transit bus from near hotel to the Mayport base wasn't scary at all at 05:20 on a Sunday morning.

Saint Paul - the rehabbed station area - might be boring but not scary at all -

Another "attraction" near Saint Paul is the Science Museum -- can watch trains from their balcony and they have a lot of interactive exhibits.

Also Saint Paul has many events over on Harriet Island - less than a mile walk from SPUD and nearby hotels.

Maybe as a local resident I undervalue the amenities of the riverfront here. For sure I don't fear getting mugged or even hassled anywhere in downtown Saint Paul. And I love walking along the river.


----------



## VentureForth (Sep 14, 2012)

Ozark Southern said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > San Francisco of the Midwest?  And don't forget St. Louis, they have a pretty nice Public Transportation Network, we really enjoyed riding during our Gathering there two Years ago!
> ...


Arlington failed public transportation LONG before Jerry Jones ever had a say so in the matter.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 14, 2012)

Ozark Southern said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > San Francisco of the Midwest?  And don't forget St. Louis, they have a pretty nice Public Transportation Network, we really enjoyed riding during our Gathering there two Years ago!
> ...


Glad to know that Twin Cities transit options worked for you. Hoping to visit Saint Louis sometime soon.

Saint Paul is kid-friendly and gay-friendly , mostly. Transit - friendly also.

No scary neighborhoods near the SPUD. Walk the riverfront any time day or night. There's all-night food at Mickey's


----------



## Notelvis (Sep 14, 2012)

I had an omelotte the size of my head at Mickey's a couple of summers ago. Can't wait to take the train right back to downtown St. Paul and do it again!


----------



## jebr (Sep 14, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> Ozark Southern said:
> 
> 
> > jimhudson said:
> ...


Just expect it to take 45 minutes to an hour, as there's always a line to be seated (at least in my experience.)


----------



## Shawn Ryu (Sep 14, 2012)

All the renovations just for 2 trains a day?

God knows how badly MSP to CHI train is needed.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 15, 2012)

Shawn Ryu said:


> All the renovations just for 2 trains a day?
> 
> God knows how badly MSP to CHI train is needed.


Another train MSP-CHI would be welcome here. The proposed reinstatement of passenger service to Duluth would also be welcome. The extension of the Northstar commuter train to Saint Cloud would be good - now there's a train to bus thing on that line. The proposed Red Rock commuter line would be good if economically feasible.

But right now the SPUD renovation project will serve the EB - the only Amtrak train here. And many other transit and other services.

Will serve the light-rail extension in progress serving most shopping and sports venues here in MSP including "Mall of America" (Mal d'Amer is my private word for the place - French for sea-sick)

And will serve the Saint Paul Riverfront area with local attractions and have quick easy transit to the main airport.

The project is not only to serve the EB - the old Midway Amtrak depot has been doing that for decades.

Washington Union Station it won't be -- useful it might be -- it will be a few years before anyone knows how it works out.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 15, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> > All the renovations just for 2 trains a day?
> ...


Why is there no additional service CHI-MSP? At least Wisconsin could provide some support.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 15, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > Shawn Ryu said:
> ...


See the thread about adding trains on existing routes 

Oh, wait - you were just kidding - about Wisconsin et al --


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 15, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > NW cannonball said:
> ...


Uh, I don't understand. What are you talking about? Didn't Wisconsin just cancel the Talgos?


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 15, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


And also the HSR project MSP-CHI - so who are you kidding?

Yeah - no additional LD train service likely at MSP.

SPUD will have to survive on the EB and local transit for at least a few years. Hope it does. Longer term -- yo no se.


----------



## dabrilloman (Sep 15, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> > All the renovations just for 2 trains a day?
> ...


I don't know how much room they will have at the renovated SPUD for restaurants or shops. It would have been nice if they could have saved the sky ways that came from the old Post Office building over Sibley St. to what was the K-dock building that was torn down and connected them to the Depot somehow. The first floor of the old Post Office would have made for a ton of space for dining and shopping.

I drove past the Spud yesterday (14th) and the outside areas all look to be cleaning up nicely...can't wait for the grand re-opening!


----------



## VentureForth (Sep 15, 2012)

Go back and watch the videos and powerpoint presentations. There are already close to 30 tenants set up for leases in the building. Some will be there to serve the light rail passengers, some for the EB, some tenants probably not there to serve the public at all. My grand kids taxes over here in Georgia helped to pay for the restoration, and to a greater percentage the residents of Minnesota. So the property will be paid for. Leases will just need to cover operating costs, maintenance, taxes, and if lucky will pay for future expansion.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 15, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > NW cannonball said:
> ...


I'm not kidding anybody. You don't have to believe me but I'm really not.


----------



## railiner (Sep 15, 2012)

Thoroughly enjoyed that video tour of the Saint Paul station. I have fond memories of riding the combined Burlington Vista-Dome Afternoon Twin Cities Zephyr/Great Northern Great-Dome Empire Builder/Northern Pacific Vista-Dome North Coast Limited from Chicago. What a railfan delight that huge train was. During peak seasons it ran in separate sections....


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 16, 2012)

railiner said:


> Thoroughly enjoyed that video tour of the Saint Paul station. I have fond memories of riding the combined Burlington Vista-Dome Afternoon Twin Cities Zephyr/Great Northern Great-Dome Empire Builder/Northern Pacific Vista-Dome North Coast Limited from Chicago. What a railfan delight that huge train was. During peak seasons it ran in separate sections....


Rode the long-time-ago TC Zephyr Saint Paul to Chicago many many years ago.

Hoping for another MSP-CHI train - but it will be a while before that happens.

Hoping that the Saint Paul Union Depot project succeeds.

Looks OK so far.


----------



## Nathanael (Sep 16, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Why is there no additional service CHI-MSP? At least Wisconsin could provide some support.


This was a joke, right?

Wisconsin was part of a multistate agreement dating back decades to provide lots more, improved, Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison-MSP service.

Governor Walker killed it because he hates trains. He spent government money for the purpose of killing it too -- spent more than it would have cost to operate the Madison train for ten years.

As it is, we can be assured Wisconsin will provide no support for train service until Governor Walker is out of office.


----------



## Ispolkom (Sep 16, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Why is there no additional service CHI-MSP? At least Wisconsin could provide some support.
> ...


And there is no way on God's green earth that the Minnesota Legislature (regardless of which party controls it) will come up with money for a Twin Cities-Chicago train without Wisconsin's participation. Even *with* Wisconsin's participation, it's a hard sell, because it will be portrayed as benefiting the Twin Cities with nothing given to out-state Minnesota. I'd guess that you'd have an easier time selling a Twin Cities-Fargo train, and a much easier time selling a Twin Cities-Rochester train.


----------



## jebr (Sep 16, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


However, roughly half (or a little more) of Minnesota's population (and thus legislative power) is in the Twin Cities area. They could probably get it passed if Wisconsin was willing to assist, especially if they had it go to St. Cloud (or, at minimum, to the end of the Northstar line.)


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 16, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


Twin Cities to Fargo (maybe even to Grand Forks) train might work with early morning departure and evening return - like the old Red River. Getting the Northstar to run all the way to Saint Cloud without the bus transfer is also possible. Maybe those two ideas could be combined. Not much pax traffic GFK-FAR-MSP - might work if cheap enough.

Train service to Duluth - possible - the BNSF- would want a lot of track improvements. We had it before - but it'll cost to re-instate that service- freight traffic on that line is up. Duluth area might be political and financial supporters up to a point.

MSP to Rochester - seen postings with tech problems - route would be a political winner - but now the frequent flights and Jefferson Lines buses from MSP area and the shuttle from Amtrak at Winona - are all handling the Mayo traffic no problems no delays.

Politically, service to Rochester and the Mayo Clinic could be a winner, but the technical problems with parts of the route and the current good service on existing lines makes it unlikely.

Meanwhile, for the next few years, SPUD will have to survive on the EB, very good local transit connections, whatever dining attractions and local attractions. Now I see that the NHL has a contract dispute -- don't think the Energy Center will be much impacted - they will settle soon.


----------



## Ispolkom (Sep 16, 2012)

jebr said:


> However, roughly half (or a little more) of Minnesota's population (and thus legislative power) is in the Twin Cities area. They could probably get it passed if Wisconsin was willing to assist,


That would be true if the Twin Cities were a unified political force WRT to rail transportation, which it isn't. Suburban voters, who are the margin of victory between the two parties, aren't interested in transit. Look at Apple Valley's backing off of a skyway at the bus rapid transit station at 147th street, once it became apparent they'd have to pay for upkeep. Look at Anoka County's backing out of the Twin Cities-Duluth line.

Look at how hard it is to get anything going rail-wise in the Twin Cities, even the poisoned apple of Northstar commuter rail.

Rail to Chicago is going to be seen as a Minneapolis-St. Paul issue, not a Metro area one.

New rail frequencies from the Twin Cities to Chicago was always a hard row to hoe, and the present political position of rail in Wisconsin makes it, in my opinion, almost impossible.

I personally wish it were otherwise, but that doesn't matter.


----------



## NW cannonball (Sep 17, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> > However, roughly half (or a little more) of Minnesota's population (and thus legislative power) is in the Twin Cities area. They could probably get it passed if Wisconsin was willing to assist,
> ...


Unfortunately I have to agree - not much chance for more rail service to SPUD or anywhere in the Twin Cities any time soon. Another decade may make a lot of changes. But that will depend on so many factors - can't even guess.

Meanwhile - hoping the Saint Paul Union Depot renovation - with the light rail connection - works somewhat well in the short term - not betting money on it - seems possible.


----------



## Russ (Nov 12, 2012)

Let's hear it for SPUD! I can hardly wait. I hope to be on that very first Amtrak Empire Builder to stop in the newly renovated beautiful Saint Paul Union Depot.


----------



## NW cannonball (Nov 14, 2012)

Russ said:


> Let's hear it for SPUD! I can hardly wait. I hope to be on that very first Amtrak Empire Builder to stop in the newly renovated beautiful Saint Paul Union Depot.


Me too.

According the the signs posted on the doors at SPUD - official opening is December 8.

Most of the doors are open now- people wandering about on the new escalators -- the headhouse restaurant in business.

But on the official December 8 opening date - what does it mean --

Some Metro Transit buses start running from near the depot. That is all.

Amtrak EB - sometime - maybe in a few months - hell - can't even tell from the Kellogg bridge if the Division Street switch is ok, or the signals.

Central Corridor light rail -- the station is almost finished outside of the front of SPUD -- but no service until a year from now.

Intercity bus -- maybe sometime soon.

And -- no place to park the CP Holiday train in Saint Paul -- they are skipping Saint Paul -- because nowhere to park - because -- the "station SPUD" is disconnected from any main line - and also has a few thousand yards of parking tracks that NO-ONE can use! So a few hundred community lose that -- what do we gain? -- So far -- gain zero.

Web sites of the perps? (AMTK - Metro transit - SPUD) - zero.

No Amtrak, no light rail, - a few local buses.

The Division Street turnout - there's a new signal but turned aside. No other possible connection to any main line in place as of now.

SPUD, right now, is a "redeveloped space" with a few restaurant customers -- possibly when downtown Saint Paulites learn that there's fairly cheap parking under the old tracks there will be some parking revenue --

Has no connection to any Class 1 railroad, and won't for at least a year

What I'm trying to say is ++

Sheesh -- !!

What on un-coordinated opening night.

I hoped for better -- what to do?


----------



## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 14, 2012)

What's an opening of a train station if no trains stop there? Seriously, do these guys just want publicity?


----------



## NW cannonball (Nov 14, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What's an opening of a train station if no trains stop there? Seriously, do these guys just want publicity?


No, obviously. They (the various supporters of the SPUD) do want publicity, to support local rail transport -- light rail - commuter rail - intermodal - whatever LD rail the community can support. And also the rail terminal station. There is WAS and NYP - otherwhere there is any of the main stations on the Yamanote -- hopes for *really really big synergy *between transport hubs and shopping and whatever. Works for WAS, works real good for many places. May work for SPUD, ,more or less. Maybe not.

What I was trying to say was, the "opening" of SPUD has been un-coordinated. That's all.

SPUD will never be shinjuku - there's no 30 Meg persons to support it.

It might be a useful transport center with some good food.

Right now - there's good food but no transport.

Some significant transport will be there within a year or so.

What that might lead to neither you nor i nor anyone knows -- how oats, peas beans, and barley grows.


----------

