# Oh my goodness, trying to get a passport?



## iowa train fan (Jun 10, 2013)

We are trying to get passport cards for our trip to Montreal on the Adirondack. What a pain in the rear. I figured I would at least buy the tickets but no, need passport numbers to even make the reservation. OK, went to the post office Saturday to get passports, oh that will take 4 to 6 weeks. We leave in six weeks! My copy of the birth certificate was accepted by PO, they would not accept my wife's, did not have parent's information on it even know she paid 80 dollars to get this copy a year ago. State department will not accept. Now I need to try to get a hold of my federal representative and see if he can expedite and help to get a new copy of her BC.But now we have the time issue, not sure if we can even get the passport card in time. Until I get the card, I will not be able to make the reservation. HOW ON EARTH DO ILLEGAL PEOPLE GET BY IN THIS COUNTRY, BECAUSE LEGALS DON'T SEEM TO HAVE MUCH OF A CHANCE. I do not get it, with computers and everything, you would think this information can be verified in no time. Yet I can go and vote and not even show ID. Any advice??? Thank you


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Jun 10, 2013)

Oh how simple things once were.....no more quick, spur of the moment trips across the border!

I grew up in a border community. Most of the time no ID was even requested….neither a driver license, birth or baptismal certificate.....let alone a passport!

The community on the US side had a McDonalds before we did and it was the most common thing to just load us kids in the car and head over for a meal or a treat in the evening. We had the hockey rink on our side and our minor hockey team was about a 50/50 split of US/Canadian players. When we had practice at 7am on a Saturday morning they were here too except it was 6am to them……..the Eastern/Atlantic time zone went down the middle of the river.

Our US/Canadian communities even shared a Fire Service. I read where a similar community on the Quebec/New York State border also relied on the other for fire back-up and recently when the call went out for back-up, the Canadians were held-up at the border for passport checks.....even running the license plates on the fire trucks! Well the building burnt and there were a lot of protests from the US community to your border officials.


----------



## NW cannonball (Jun 10, 2013)

Advice - look through http://travel.state.gov/passport  -- all the requirements are there, including requirements for "Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship" if the birth certificate does not meet requirements. Also advice on how and where to get passport faster, including in-person sites (most require an appointment, *some* do not require that you have tickets for international travel already)

More advice - "don't panic". It was 5 years ago when I got my current passport, the old one was expired and lost (probably in the trash) and there was a big hoo-hah about passport issuance delays at that time with new requirements and needing a passport to get to Canada (actually, to get back home from Canada, at the time). The estimated time was 4-8 weeks, as it is now, but it arrived by ordinary mail in 10 days. Now, who knows? My passport worked for Japan, but haven't tried it for Canada yet.

The issue with wife's birth certificate not meeting requirements is best raised with the issuing authority, at leisure, if possible. Use the "secondary evidence" if available.

The bits about "illegals" not relevant on this forum, but really, illegals have a hard time getting passports nowadays, that's part of the point of the tighter regulations. It's not about "getting by in this country" it's about being able to get a U S Passport, which lets you go about anywhere, even back home to the USA.


----------



## iowa train fan (Jun 10, 2013)

Sorry, did not mean it as a derogatory comment about illegal’s, it was just meant how on earth can anyone survive here without 57 form of identification. Sorry if I offended anyone, did not mean too!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for the advice


----------



## jis (Jun 10, 2013)

NW cannonball said:


> Advice - look through http://travel.state.gov/passport  -- all the requirements are there, including requirements for "Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship" if the birth certificate does not meet requirements. Also advice on how and where to get passport faster, including in-person sites (most require an appointment, *some* do not require that you have tickets for international travel already)
> More advice - "don't panic". It was 5 years ago when I got my current passport, the old one was expired and lost (probably in the trash) and there was a big hoo-hah about passport issuance delays at that time with new requirements and needing a passport to get to Canada (actually, to get back home from Canada, at the time). The estimated time was 4-8 weeks, as it is now, but it arrived by ordinary mail in 10 days. Now, who knows? My passport worked for Japan, but haven't tried it for Canada yet.
> 
> The issue with wife's birth certificate not meeting requirements is best raised with the issuing authority, at leisure, if possible. Use the "secondary evidence" if available.
> ...


If you are willing to pay for it, there are all sorts of expedited Passport Services available, some even able to get a Passport issued within a week or less, provided of course there is no hitch with documentation. Last time I renewed my Passport it was between two international trips separated from each other by 10 days, and our company's document handling contractor was able to get the new Passport to me in 5 days. Heaven knows what it cost the company to pull that off though.
Speaking of "going anywhere", there are some significant places in the world where one would prefer to hide ones US Passport away and use a second country Passport if possible. People who have dual citizenship can do that. Then there are countries where dual citizens are only allowed to use their other Passport to enter their second country of citizenship, not the US one. US has a similar rule. If you have a US Passport that must be used to enter US and not any other Passport (for whatever reason). Fortunately I don't have to deal with any of this, since my country of birth does not permit full fledged dual citizenship.

BTW Cannonball, a Passport that allowed you to enter the US coming from Japan will most certainly allow you to enter the US coming from Canada, unless of course it has a special endorsement disallowing such, which would be astounding to say the least!


----------



## NW cannonball (Jun 10, 2013)

iowa train fan said:


> Sorry, did not mean it as a derogatory comment about illegal’s, it was just meant how on earth can anyone survive here without 57 form of identification. Sorry if I offended anyone, did not mean too!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for the advice


You sure didn't offend me. Just presented a frustrating problem. I think -- "hey moderators" we could use an item in http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/forum/78-amtrak-faqs-first-time-rider-info/ about the border-crossing requirements.

The origins and development of the border control regimen are best discussed elsewhere.

The requirements for cross-border travel seem appropriate to this forum. How to best present the special requirements for cross-border trips.


----------



## jis (Jun 10, 2013)

iowa train fan said:


> Sorry, did not mean it as a derogatory comment about illegal’s, it was just meant how on earth can anyone survive here without 57 form of identification. Sorry if I offended anyone, did not mean too!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for the advice


Say, does your state of residence issue enhanced driver's license which is adequate for traveling on ground to/from Canada? If they do, than that might be a much quicker bet.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 10, 2013)

Assuming her "Iowa" is correct, that unfortunately won't work. Looks like WA, MI, VT and NY are the only states that participate?

I thought that it was common knowledge that the passport process could take weeks/months. I've maintained an active passport since I was in college (although I seldom needed one since I was entering and leaving countries on a gray painted ship  ).


----------



## NW cannonball (Jun 10, 2013)

Washington, Michigan, New York, Vermont.

Wishing Minnesota, Nodak, Montana would join.


----------



## tricia (Jun 10, 2013)

It seems bizarre that Amtrak requires passport numbers to make a reservation on the Adirondack to Montreal. VIA Rail doesn't require any such documentation for US citizens to make a reservation on the trans-Canada Canadian train. (Just recently made such a VIA Rail reservation.)

Does anyone have any insight into why Amtrak requires passport number to make a reservation?


----------



## Ryan (Jun 10, 2013)

Too many people showing up to the train without the proper documents and complaining loudly, I'd guess.


----------



## PRR 60 (Jun 10, 2013)

tricia said:


> It seems bizarre that Amtrak requires passport numbers to make a reservation on the Adirondack to Montreal. VIA Rail doesn't require any such documentation for US citizens to make a reservation on the trans-Canada Canadian train. (Just recently made such a VIA Rail reservation.)
> Does anyone have any insight into why Amtrak requires passport number to make a reservation?


Two reasons:

First, the information is to ensure that passengers intending to cross the border have the proper documentation. If Amtrak transports someone to the border who is then denied entry due to not possessing the proper documentation, Amtrak has to pay to return them home.

Second, Amtrak sends a listing of all cross-border passengers, including documentation details, to both the US and Canadian authorities in order to allow both sides to screen for non-admissible persons. This is done multiple times beginning before the train departs and including a final time as the train is en route.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (Jun 10, 2013)

tricia said:


> ...........VIA Rail doesn't require any such documentation for US citizens to make a reservation on the trans-Canada Canadian train. (Just recently made such a VIA Rail reservation.)


The Canadian doesn’t cross an international border.

I’m a Canadian and can make a reservation to board an Amtrak train travelling within the US and I don’t need a passport number.....but If I board an Amtrak train that will be crossing the border, I do need to provide the number.


----------



## jis (Jun 10, 2013)

PRR 60 said:


> Second, Amtrak sends a listing of all cross-border passengers, including documentation details, to both the US and Canadian authorities in order to allow both sides to screen for non-admissible persons. This is done multiple times beginning before the train departs and including a final time as the train is en route.


Lest someone thinks that Amtrak does this just for the heck of it.... it is actually a legal requirement. It is part of the APIS II (Advanced Passenger Information System) that must be followed by all carriers carrying passengers across borders. Both sides get to review the list and make a decision about individual on the train/plane.
I think that for the Adirondack and the Maple Leaf, the final APIS submission is made after ticket issuance is closed on the reservation system. I am not sure upto what point a Conductor is allowed to add passengers who do not have reservation, if at all.

BTW, a very revealing thing happened on my last flight to Israel Thursday before last. Just before our plane was about to push back the departure was delayed apparently because Israel objected to one passenger on the APIS that was supplied to them - or so was whispered among the staff, no public announcements to the effect. I was at my usual exit row seat facing two of the cabin crew in their jump seats, and overheard the conversation. We waited while this passenger and his baggage was offloaded. I did not realize how quickly this information flows back and forth, and was somewhat surprised and impressed that Israel had already had time to review and react to the final APIS list even before the plane had a chance to depart!


----------



## The Davy Crockett (Jun 10, 2013)

There was a time when Amtrak did not require passport numbers for reservations to Canada and one could take spur-of-the-moment trips on Amtrak across the border, but times have changed. This requirement was probably placed on Amtrak and not something Amtrak decided to start doing on its own.

EDIT: jis posted as I was writing...


----------



## tricia (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks for the clarifications, y'all, about requiring passport numbers for reservations.

Still seems odd to me. I understand that cross-border transport would have different rules. But come to think of it, when I made airline reservations to/from Pittsburgh and Canada (for that trip on the Canadian), passport numbers weren't required to buy those tickets--although of course we'll have to have our passports with us when we actually travel.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 10, 2013)

How long ago was that?


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 10, 2013)

tricia said:


> Still seems odd to me. I understand that cross-border transport would have different rules. But come to think of it, when I made airline reservations to/from Pittsburgh and Canada (for that trip on the Canadian), passport numbers weren't required to buy those tickets--although of course we'll have to have our passports with us when we actually travel.


For as long as I can remember having a passport number (and the physical book itself) has been a requirement to check in for an international trip, but not to purchase a ticket. I've bought tickets to Europe and Asia without entering my passport number until checking in. In fact having an international trip already booked with tickets in hand is the only way I know of to get a passport created in a single day. Suddenly that four to six week nonsense becomes four to six hours. Maybe it's changed now but last I checked you could buy an international ticket from Amtrak online without entering your passport number.


----------



## jis (Jun 10, 2013)

Yes, you can still get a Passport in a few days provided you are able to establish the need for expedited processing and are willing to pay through your nose for same.


----------



## SeeBuyFly (Jun 10, 2013)

Anyone who can afford to travel (and is physically able to travel) should also have a passport at all times. It is incredible that anyone would think about getting a passport or passport card only after making travel plans.

Regarding the good old days when one could just drive cross the border to go to Macdonalds, the reason was, of course, that the border communities were racially homogenous. Your face was your passport. It is not a bad thing that things are not done that way any more.


----------



## City of Miami (Jun 10, 2013)

I don't know why a poster put the word *illegals* in quotation marks. And there is nothing derogatory about the term, thus nothing to apologize for by the OP.

I just took a MOOC from Emory Univ on _Citizenship and Immigration_ and illegal alien is the appropriate term, i.e. an alien is just a non-citizen and there are both legal and illegal aliens in the country. Just a fact, not a judgment. However my judgment after this course is that we have got ourselves into a hot mess on this front and the current proposed legislation does precious little to help.


----------



## crescent2 (Jun 10, 2013)

I bought an airline ticket for an international flight in March, and IIRC, I had to provide my passport number.

OP: You did not offend me. You were discussing a problem.


----------



## BCL (Jun 10, 2013)

Getting an expedited passport isn't really all that hard. I talked to someone at my workplace who handles travel, and if in a hurry our company will pay for expediters to do this. They'll hand deliver the materials to the passport office and pick them up. They charge a bunch though. I actually live close enough that I could probably do it myself, and even that comes with about a $60 fee to expedite and an additional fee to send by overnight delivery. I think I can pick it up too. However, I live close enough to the San Francisco passport office to do it. Passport offices pretty much only handle in-person applications if they expedited, with the exception of special "passport days".

I actually got my first passport expedited. I don't think I was required to do so, but I submitted a travel itinerary that showed when I needed it. I got it in less than a week through regular mail. Back then they didn't even charge an expedite fee.

Once you've got a passport or passport card, renewals are pretty easy. The only issue is that you're supposed to submit what you've got regardless of what you're applying for. I renewed just my passport book, but I had to submit both my passport card and book. It's a weird requirement.


----------



## BCL (Jun 10, 2013)

The requirement for at least one parent to be listed on the birth certificate is pretty new. The requirement says "parent(s)" so they at least acknowledge that sometimes the father's name isn't listed.



> http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_5401.html
> Beginning April 1, 2011, the U.S. Department of State will require the full names of the applicant’s parent(s) to be listed on all certified birth certificates to be considered as primary evidence of U.S. citizenship for all passport applicants, regardless of age. Certified birth certificates missing this information will not be acceptable as evidence of citizenship. This will not affect applications already in-process that have been submitted or accepted before the effective date.


Every city, county, or state agency that issues birth certificates should be able to provide a birth certificate that meets these requirements. However, sometimes the request has to be made specifically for a birth certificate with all this information. Doing it in person helps. Pennsylvania has been notorious for issuing computer-printout birth certificates that barely have any information. They don't list the city of birth (only the county) and many over the years didn't even list either parents' name. My kid was born in California, and by default the only birth certificates issued now are images of the original with both parents' name (I noted that the father's entry could be left blank).

And there is no agency that charges $80 for a birth certificate, so I'm assuming that a third party was involved like VitalChek and maybe an overnight fee. Maybe it's $50 for a State Dept issued birth certificate for the Panama Canal Zone, but that's all I can think that charges more than maybe $30.


----------



## City of Miami (Jun 10, 2013)

I find the requirement about a parent quite odd - but certainly not the only oddity in this quagmire.

I learned in the above mentioned course that the USA uses_ jus soli _to determine citizenship. This means that place of birth determines citizenship. If you are born within the boundaries of the US you are a US citizen; case closed. Jus sanguinis is the system that uses parentage to determine citizenship; this prevails throughout Europe.

We also learned that Congress has sole plenary power in this realm, significantly not subject to judicial review. It seems odd that the State Dept could make this requirement as this is in the executive branch. However, the whole issue is immensely complicated.


----------



## BCL (Jun 10, 2013)

City of Miami said:


> I find the requirement about a parent quite odd - but certainly not the only oddity in this quagmire.
> I learned in the above mentioned course that the USA uses_ jus loci _to determine citizenship. This means that place of birth determines citizenship. If you are born within the boundaries of the US you are a US citizen; case closed. Jus sanguinis is the system that uses parentage to determine citizenship; this prevails throughout Europe.
> 
> We also learned that Congress has sole plenary power in this realm, significantly not subject to judicial review. It seems odd that the State Dept could make this requirement as this is in the executive branch. However, the whole issue is immensely complicated.


The legal term is _jus soli _("right of the soil" or sometimes "law of the soil"). Additionally, the US practices a form of _jus sanguins_. It gets complicated because Congress has passed various laws for statutory _jus sanguins_ citizenship over the years using a complex determination depending on the citizenship status of the father, the mother, marriage status, age of the mother at time of birth, etc. Even if _jus sanguins_ citizenship isn't passed on to a child at birth, it's almost trivial for a US citizen parent to bring a child into the US and immediately apply for naturalization.

7 FAM 1100 ACQUISITION AND RETENTION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND NATIONALITY



> 7 FAM 1111 INTRODUCTION
> (CT:CON-407; 06-29-2012)
> 
> a. U.S. citizenship may be acquired either at birth or through naturalization subsequent to birth. U.S. laws governing the acquisition of citizenship at birth embody two legal principles:
> ...


There are other documents that can be used to document_ jus sanguins _US citizenship. The current document is issued by the State Dept and is called the "Consular Report of Birth Abroad".

And don't even get started with non-citizen US nationality.


----------



## Joeker (Jun 10, 2013)

The most recent statistics issued by the state department in January 2013 is that about 39% of the US Population have passports, excluding passport cards.

This compares to about 67% of British and 71 % of EU members having passports and 53% of Canadians holding passports.


----------



## George Harris (Jun 10, 2013)

iowa train fan said:


> My copy of the birth certificate was accepted by PO, they would not accept my wife's, did not have parent's information on it even know she paid 80 dollars to get this copy a year ago. State department will not accept. Now I need to try to get a hold of my federal representative and see if he can expedite and help to get a new copy of her BC.


Forget the federal representative. Birth Certificates are a state issue. Find out how to contact the agency that provides them. Forget third parties that claim to be able to speed things up. The only thing they are really speeding up is the rate of departure of money from your wallet. There is usually a short form and a long form. Sounds like you need the long form. Be sure you make clear what you want. You want a certified copy of the long form. Don't know how convenient it is to you, but for some at least you can go to their office and pick it up the same day. Some do have a service that expedites delivery, but find out how it works from the agency, not from some third party.

Went through that a few months back. My state of birth is Tennessee. Was able to handle it all on line. Maybe there was a phone call involved. Memory fades. But is was relatively painless.

Have no idea what state, but if you paid $80, I suspect you were skinned.


----------



## amamba (Jun 10, 2013)

If you are local to a passport office just go in person - they can do it same day. My h got one same day in Boston about ten years ago.


----------



## iowa train fan (Jun 10, 2013)

We never planned on ever traveling outside the United States and never had need for a passport. Shame on us for being naive about the whole process. When we first thought about the trip, we did not realize it was such a pain to get one. Oh stupid me!!!!!! Only then did we start doing the research and ran into all these issues. The biggest thing that upset us was the fact that the post office would not accept her BD. I have not looked real close but from what I can see, it does not say anywhere in the paper work I saw that parents information must be listed on the BD, she just bought this last year to get her drivers license changed from Iowa to Pennsylvania. Thank you to all for the great advice!


----------



## shelzp (Jun 10, 2013)

When I got a passport the post office wouldn't accept the birth certificate I had used for my entire life either. I had to get a copy from the county and go back when I had that in hand. I didn't know there was a problem with the original one but I think it was issued by the hospital instead of the government. I didn't have the time issues that you're under and I'm wishing you good luck with a frustrating situation. As soon as she has her documents you can expedite it. (For some extra $ of course)


----------



## jis (Jun 10, 2013)

Once when I needed to get an additional book of pages added to my US Passport, I just walked into the Calcutta Consulate ( I happened to be in Calcutta when I realized I will have difficulty on my stopovers on the way back) and asked them to get it done. I had my Passport back with the additional pages within a couple of hours. Incidentally, the Calcutta Consulate is considered to be one of the dozen or so oldest continuously operating US Consular Offices. It used to be the US Embassy in British India.

When I got my first Passport I used my Naturalization Certificate, which of course they accepted without a fuss. Afterall it would be really odd for them to not accept a certificate that they gave me with much fanfare the previous day.


----------



## AlanB (Jun 10, 2013)

tricia said:


> Thanks for the clarifications, y'all, about requiring passport numbers for reservations.
> Still seems odd to me. I understand that cross-border transport would have different rules. But come to think of it, when I made airline reservations to/from Pittsburgh and Canada (for that trip on the Canadian), passport numbers weren't required to buy those tickets--although of course we'll have to have our passports with us when we actually travel.


But when you fly, you have to check in and provide that info if they didn't get it before. So the agent at the ticket counter types it into the computer. On Amtrak some stations have no agent. Some stations don't even have a building. So if Amtrak doesn't collect it in advance, there is no way to get it into the computer.


----------



## zephyr17 (Jun 10, 2013)

Your representative can't help in getting a birth certificate. He may be able to help to push a passport application through once all the documents are in order. If you know where your wife was born, use VitalChek.com to order a new birth certificate. They can get them in a matter of days. Parent's names are required to be accepted by the State Department, though. If you have a choice between ordering a "short form" or "long form" birth certificate, chose the "long form" as the short form usually is missing something as far as the State Department is concerned. If you have to go through secondary proof of citizenship, that could take a lot more documentation.

Once you have an acceptable birth certificate, paying for expedited service with the State Department should get you the passports in about 2 weeks.

Passports have always been required for most international travel. The fact that we could go back and forth to Canada with little more than a driver's license and answering the question "Where were you born" were the exception, and those days are long gone.

I've had a valid passport since 1986 and always keep it. They are very handy things to have, the gold standard of ID.


----------



## NW cannonball (Jun 10, 2013)

iowa train fan said:


> We never planned on ever traveling outside the United States and never had need for a passport. Shame on us for being naive about the whole process. When we first thought about the trip, we did not realize it was such a pain to get one. Oh stupid me!!!!!! Only then did we start doing the research and ran into all these issues. The biggest thing that upset us was the fact that the post office would not accept her BD. I have not looked real close but from what I can see, it does not say anywhere in the paper work I saw that parents information must be listed on the BD, she just bought this last year to get her drivers license changed from Iowa to Pennsylvania. Thank you to all for the great advice!


But -- once you get the passport document - it can be a hassle sometimes -- once you have it - with its hard-to-tamper picture and its rfid encrypted link to all the databases.

You are good to go "almost anywhere" -- not North Korea - but who wants to go there .


----------



## SeeBuyFly (Jun 10, 2013)

jis said:


> Once when I needed to get an additional book of pages added to my US Passport, I just walked into the Calcutta Consulate...Incidentally, the Calcutta Consulate is considered to be one of the dozen or so oldest continuously operating US Consular Offices. It used to be the US Embassy in British India.


Ha ha, it's the one on Ho Chi Minh St. To their credit, when the street name was changed, they accepted it without much fuss and changed all their letterheads and everything.
On the other hand, it's been many years since you could 'walk into' the consulate in Kolkata.

This isn't off topic at all because there are so many wonderful trains in India. Admittedly, none of them are Amtrak.


----------



## BCL (Jun 10, 2013)

George Harris said:


> iowa train fan said:
> 
> 
> > My copy of the birth certificate was accepted by PO, they would not accept my wife's, did not have parent's information on it even know she paid 80 dollars to get this copy a year ago. State department will not accept. Now I need to try to get a hold of my federal representative and see if he can expedite and help to get a new copy of her BC.
> ...


Birth certificates are generally a local issue depending on the place of birth. In California, the most common place to get a birth certificate is at a county recorder's office. A few cities even handle birth certificates, although all of them eventually send them to the county. All counties eventually send them to the state, which maintains the final archive. The state can issue them, but they have no counter service so all requests for full copies (which can be used to obtain identity documents) must be by mail along with a notorization of the requester's photo ID. One would need that anyways if sent to a city/county office, but every one has counter service where one can produce the ID in person. Each city/county would store the image as an electronic scan and/or on some microform.

New York City issues its own birth certificates and maintains its own archive. They don't send them off to the state, which is what happens in the rest of the state (where one can make a request via some cities or straight to a state office). If available in the rest of NY state, it might make sense to get it from the city, since most charge as little as $10 while the state is $30. I've seen some call the "long form" a "photo birth certificate" and charge more (Buffalo is $25). Some states only handle them as a state matter, including Ohio and Hawaii.

And some third parties are the only way to get expedited service if you can't get to an office in person. Lots of local/state agencies will only do remote expedited service via VitalChek or some other company (I remember one but can't recall the name).

Also - the State Dept doesn't generally care if it's "long form" vs "short form" or if it's some kind of printout or an image of the originally prepared document with original signatures or not. They have requirements for full name, date of birth, place of birth, at least one parent's name, seal of the registrar (or other head of the issuing authority), and the date that the original certificate was filed. The filing date generally has to be less than a year after the DOB, but there are exceptions if the form indicates that the attendant certified the birth, if there's strong documentation indicating the accuracy (this happens with some court ordered birth certificate forms), or if the form shows there was a parental affidavit on the form. Some agencies have special forms for delayed birth certificates that include space to list the reason why the birth certificate was filed late and who certified it.

There are some odd cases, but the State Dept doesn't generally publicize them. One is that the "abstract" that used to be available in California is no longer acceptable. That one apparently didn't even have a registrar's seal and had so few security features that it was easy to forge. Another is that in Texas there's been cases of midwife fraud, where midwives had falsely certified births as occuring in Texas. The State Dept wants to see the "full version" which can be obtained but may take longer to get. What they're looking for is the name of the attendant. The State Dept has a list of suspect midwives and certain ones will draw additional scrutiny. Another weird case is in Hudson County, New Jersey - where several employees had been taking money to generate birth certificates for births that didn't occur there. The State Dept and other agencies are on alert to not take birth certificates from Hudson County. One can obtain one from the city of birth or from the state.



> http://www.nj.com/hudson/voices/index.ssf/2011/05/daily_poll_is_it_fair_that_som.html
> Hudson County is no stranger to scandals.
> 
> Heck, more Hudson County pols and political figures were arrested in the infamous Operation Bid Rig III sting of 2009 than other county in the state.
> ...


----------



## BCL (Jun 10, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> Your representative can't help in getting a birth certificate. He may be able to help to push a passport application through once all the documents are in order. If you know where your wife was born, use VitalChek.com to order a new birth certificate. They can get them in a matter of days. Parent's names are required to be accepted by the State Department, though. If you have a choice between ordering a "short form" or "long form" birth certificate, chose the "long form" as the short form usually is missing something as far as the State Department is concerned. If you have to go through secondary proof of citizenship, that could take a lot more documentation.
> Once you have an acceptable birth certificate, paying for expedited service with the State Department should get you the passports in about 2 weeks.
> 
> Passports have always been required for most international travel. The fact that we could go back and forth to Canada with little more than a driver's license and answering the question "Where were you born" were the exception, and those days are long gone.
> ...


There's nothing about most "short forms" that (for the vast majority of birth certificates) that creates an issue with the State Dept. There are a few exceptions, and I noted Texas and California's now invalid abstract form. The only issue for most cases is if the form doesn't list all the information that the State Dept wants to see. Some certificates have left out parental names. I noted Pennsylvania as one where this was common. There are some states/counties/cities where they issue nothing but computer generated abstracts, including Pennsylvania, New York City (unless born before they went to all electronic filing), Hawaii (unless you're the President and ask nicely), and Ohio.

A lot of states now only record births via electronic filing from the hospital (think e-filing taxes). It might be possible to fill out a paper form for home or emergency births, but most people are born in hospitals. The printout versions are perfectly adequate the majority of purposes, including getting a passport.


----------



## the_traveler (Jun 10, 2013)

iowa train fan said:


> We never planned on ever traveling outside the United States and never had need for a passport. Shame on us for being naive about the whole process. When we first thought about the trip, we did not realize it was such a pain to get one.


Except for a couple of trips to Europe in the 1980's, I've never have been out of the US and needed a Passport. Yet I got one and renewed it ever since. (I grew up in upstate NYS and went to Canada quite often, but that was when the crossing was easy.)

When my sister and BIL flew to Asia in 2005, they needed their Passport numbers to reserve the flights.

Even though I don't plan to travel internationally, I still would rather have a Passport and/or a Passport Card and not need it than not have them and need them. (I have both.) You never know if say you find yourself in Niagara Falls, NY and want to go to Niagara Falls, ON or find yourself in Detroit and want to go to Windsor or find yourself in Seattle NTD want to spend the day in Vancouver, BC.

To the OP, if it's convenient to you and you travel is soon (I think within like 14 or 30 days), you can make an appointment to visit the Passport Office in Chicago (or wherever) and get your Passport the same day!

HINT: A Passport Card is less to obtain, if you only plan to visit Canada, Bermuda, the Carrabean and I think Mexico. But it is only good for land or sea crossings. If you fly, you'll need a regular Passport.


----------



## BCL (Jun 10, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> HINT: A Passport Card is less to obtain, if you only plan to visit Canada, Bermuda, the Carrabean and I think Mexico. But it is only good for land or sea crossings. If you fly, you'll need a regular Passport.


I've got one simply because it's easy proof of citizenship that fits in my wallet along with my credit cards. I paid $20 for mine, processed as a "renewal" since I already had a valid passport book.

And once you have a passport or passport card you'll never need to go through passport acceptance (post office or other facility) ever again as long as you've got one that hasn't expired yet or has been expired less than five years.

Also - most passport offices only take expedited requests except for special "passport days". On those days (usually Saturdays) they'll take routine requests and don't charge the $25 "acceptance fee". That fee is always paid out to the acceptance facility and not the State Dept.


----------



## calwatch (Jun 10, 2013)

There is one other benefit of the passport card which is that it is the only form of ID which does not expose your address and state of origin to everyone that sees it. I often use it when I am not driving for that reason.


----------



## zephyr17 (Jun 10, 2013)

Just took a peek at my Nexus card, and it doesn't show my address, either.

I've taken to using it exclusively at airport security.


----------



## chakk (Jun 10, 2013)

tricia said:


> Thanks for the clarifications, y'all, about requiring passport numbers for reservations.
> Still seems odd to me. I understand that cross-border transport would have different rules. But come to think of it, when I made airline reservations to/from Pittsburgh and Canada (for that trip on the Canadian), passport numbers weren't required to buy those tickets--although of course we'll have to have our passports with us when we actually travel.


AFAIK, all US airlines check passports at the gate before allowing a passenger to board a plane bound for an international destination -- in this case, Canada. So, there is no penalty to the airline for having to pay passage to send you back to the USA -- you wouldn't have gotton on the plane in the first place. And, if you purchase airline tickets for such an international trip without a valid passport, then it is your problem, not the airline's, and you might not even have a legitimate argument to get a full ticket refund from the airline.

A couple years ago, I had a scienfic colleague who was coming to a big conference from a European country. Although he was a regular traveler to the USA, and would only be in the USA on this trip for 5 days, he was denied boarding of his flight at the gate because his passport had less that 6 months validity remaining -- the US officials in this European country turned him away and he missed the entire meeting.


----------



## zephyr17 (Jun 10, 2013)

A lot of countries require 3 or 6 months remaining validity on a passport to allow entry, not just the US. European countries in the Schengen area require 3 months remaining validity, regardless of length of stay. If you don't have the length of validity the admitting country requires, you will be denied entry regardless of the reason why you are traveling.


----------



## BCL (Jun 10, 2013)

chakk said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the clarifications, y'all, about requiring passport numbers for reservations.
> ...


That's not exactly how it works. For an international destination, if you check-in at the counter, and that's where they'll check your travel documents to be sure that they're valid for the country of travel before issuing a boarding pass. If you check-in online, you'll need to enter your travel document information. Then the travel documents will be checked at the security line and marked by security (I say security and not TSA because some airports still hire private security). Once at the gate, the only thing required will be the boarding pass.

The real ironic thing is that airlines typically won't check if a passenger has the correct travel documents to return to the US. I can speak from experience regarding someone I was traveling with who brought the wrong document thinking it was a US Permanent Resident Card. It was actually an unexpired work authorization document that looked similar to the green card at the time. They've actually upgraded the look (now has a representation of the Statue of Liberty) of the green card so that it's hard to make that mistake. The work authorization document says "Not Valid for Travel".


----------



## zephyr17 (Jun 10, 2013)

Not necessarily. It depends on the airline and the country. When I traveled to South Korea last year, my passport was checked at the check-in counter (no online check-in for that airline). All passengers had their passports checked again at the gate before being allowed to board.

The same thing happened on my return flight at Seoul.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Jun 10, 2013)

calwatch said:


> There is one other benefit of the passport card which is that it is the only form of ID which does not expose your address and state of origin to everyone that sees it. I often use it when I am not driving for that reason.


US Passports don't require Address and State of Origin, although ,of course, they show your Place of Birth!


----------



## jis (Jun 10, 2013)

zephyr17 said:


> Not necessarily. It depends on the airline and the country. When I traveled to South Korea last year, my passport was checked at the check-in counter (no online check-in for that airline). All passengers had their passports checked again at the gate before being allowed to board.
> The same thing happened on my return flight at Seoul.


Same is true for India and Israel. Israel also has secondary security check at the gate, with a fenced of holding area for those that have been cleared by secondary security.


----------



## George Harris (Jun 11, 2013)

BCL said:


> There's nothing about most "short forms" that (for the vast majority of birth certificates) that creates an issue with the State Dept. There are a few exceptions, and I noted Texas and California's now invalid abstract form. The only issue for most cases is if the form doesn't list all the information that the State Dept wants to see. Some certificates have left out parental names. I noted Pennsylvania as one where this was common. There are some states/counties/cities where they issue nothing but computer generated abstracts, including Pennsylvania, New York City (unless born before they went to all electronic filing), Hawaii (unless you're the President and ask nicely), and Ohio.
> A lot of states now only record births via electronic filing from the hospital (think e-filing taxes). It might be possible to fill out a paper form for home or emergency births, but most people are born in hospitals. The printout versions are perfectly adequate the majority of purposes, including getting a passport.


Your other post: Wow!! I had no idea there were so many odd and strange arrangements for birth certificates in this country. All states where I have been involved with birth certificate issues for self or family conducted this stuff on a state level.

Off the subject, but one issue where parents names are a necessity is if you are wanting resident visas for your family in another country. That I had to have for all my children: "Long form" birth certificates showing that I was the father before I could get visas for my children to be with me when I was working overseas.

Many people from my parents generation and back either never had birth certificates or got them as adults because they were born at home.

A comment: Even if I never intend to travel outside the country again, I do intend to keep a valid passport to the end of my days. (I do have some overseas trips I would still like to make.)


----------



## BCL (Jun 11, 2013)

George Harris said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > There's nothing about most "short forms" that (for the vast majority of birth certificates) that creates an issue with the State Dept. There are a few exceptions, and I noted Texas and California's now invalid abstract form. The only issue for most cases is if the form doesn't list all the information that the State Dept wants to see. Some certificates have left out parental names. I noted Pennsylvania as one where this was common. There are some states/counties/cities where they issue nothing but computer generated abstracts, including Pennsylvania, New York City (unless born before they went to all electronic filing), Hawaii (unless you're the President and ask nicely), and Ohio.
> ...


Since my kid was born in California, I know there's a standard state form. The state authorizes both cities and counties to issue certified copies of birth records, although very few cities do. My kid was born in one of those cities. In fact, we've got versions from the city, county, and state. They all show the same information, but the images all look somewhat like a FAX with pixelation, and the multiple copies from the same agency show the same exact pixelation. So basically each agency stores a B&W image and just prints it out on security paper. There's a requirement for a standard format, and all birth certificate issuers look the same although they probably source their paper from different suppliers. I suppose if it ever really became necessarily, the original document archived in Sacramento could be pulled to make a new image.

I can't find it anywhere else except on the ACLU website, but this is the settlement agreement for Caselano v. Clinton, regarding the issuance of passports for several people born in Texas of Mexican descent who were originally denied. If you check the city/county clerk offices in Texas where birth certificates are issued, they typically make note that they recommend the "long form" be ordered if the birth certificate will be submitted with a passport application. They don't say why, but it's because the passport adjudicators want to see the name of the attendant to compare to their list of suspected attendants who they believe have fraudulently signed off on birth certificates.

http://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/racialjustice/castelanovclinton_agreement.pdf



> Plaintiffs, on behalf of themselves and those who are similarly situated, have alleged that the Department of State has engaged in a policy, pattern, and practice of categorically applying heightened scrutiny to a class of passport applicants whose births in Southwestern border states were attended by midwives or birth attendants or whose citizenship is claimed through a parent whose birth in a Southwestern border state was attended by a midwife or birth attendant.
> Plaintiffs allege that the Department of State impermissibly and unlawfully applies a heightened burden of proof to these passport applications, subjecting the
> 
> applicants to burdensome, unreasonable, and excessive demands for documentation of birth in the United States that go far beyond what other applicants are required to submit. Plaintiffs further allege that, even after applicants respond to the demands for additional information, the Department of State, without a proper individualized, evidence-based adjudication of the merits of each application, arbitrarily deems their applications “filed without further action” or otherwise abandoned and closed and refuses to issue them passports.



http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/05/us/texas-immigration-midwives



> The women's lives have taken different paths since the days they were born.
> Brenda Vazquez is a 29-year-old elementary school teacher in Matamoros, Mexico. Laura Castro lives across the border in Brownsville, Texas. She is a 32-year-old housewife who helps her husband manage several stores.
> 
> They share one thing in common: Both say they were delivered by midwives in south Texas, but pressured by U.S. Border Patrol agents to deny their U.S. citizenship.
> ...


----------



## chrsjrcj (Jun 11, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> iowa train fan said:
> 
> 
> > We never planned on ever traveling outside the United States and never had need for a passport. Shame on us for being naive about the whole process. When we first thought about the trip, we did not realize it was such a pain to get one.
> ...


So a Passport Card would be valid if I wanted to take Amtrak to Canada (it is a land crossing....)? That's good to know, since it looks like the Passport Card is significantly cheaper than a Passport Book!


----------



## Ryan (Jun 11, 2013)

Correct.

Passport card is also a great second form of ID that I seem to need once a year or so.

When you start a new job it also is a perfect "List A: Document that establishes identity and authorization to work". Easier to do than driver's license + birth certificate


----------



## iowa train fan (Jun 13, 2013)

Update, my wife went to our state rep. and their office is going to try to expedite a acceptable copy of her birth certificate, will then have to hope we can get an expedited passport card to arrive in time so we can make a reservation for the Adirondack. I wish I had thought about all this when we originally made the plans. You guys are right, it does not hurt to have the passport card anyway just as a second form of ID.Live and learn. Please keep your fingers crossed that I will still be able to get a reservation, hope the train does not sell out. Thank you again


----------



## BCL (Jun 13, 2013)

iowa train fan said:


> Update, my wife went to our state rep. and their office is going to try to expedite a acceptable copy of her birth certificate, will then have to hope we can get an expedited passport card to arrive in time so we can make a reservation for the Adirondack. I wish I had thought about all this when we originally made the plans. You guys are right, it does not hurt to have the passport card anyway just as a second form of ID.Live and learn. Please keep your fingers crossed that I will still be able to get a reservation, hope the train does not sell out. Thank you again


Just curious (and of course you don't have to answer if you don't want to) but what state? I was thinking it's probably a state where they use a computer generated abstract that might not include information unless specifically requested. Some states have applications for certified copies that ask what the purpose is for the request. If the purpose is to get a passport, they'll usually make sure all the info that the State Dept wants is there.

I mentioned Pennsylvania. Here's a sample that someone put up on a family geneology website:







Notice how much info is not included and that the city is left blank. The current form has several preprinted headings and doesn't even have a place for the city since they almost never used it anyways. I also saw a generic form that PA uses where anything can be displayed. The particular image I saw was of a delayed birth certificate.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 13, 2013)

Have you tried making the reservation online? It's been a while since I looked but it didn't seem to need my passport numbers in the past. Perhaps you just give a bogus number and then call to correct it before traveling or cancel it and rebook. I'm not sure how big of a deal this is to you but it's possible you can work this issue through multiple paths.


----------



## JoeBas (Jun 13, 2013)

Given the current PARANOIA in this country regarding ID and "Sekuritee", I wouldn't recommend giving a bogus number. They'll probably evacuate the train weeks in advance out of an abundance of caution.


----------



## amamba (Jun 13, 2013)

BCL said:


> iowa train fan said:
> 
> 
> > Update, my wife went to our state rep. and their office is going to try to expedite a acceptable copy of her birth certificate, will then have to hope we can get an expedited passport card to arrive in time so we can make a reservation for the Adirondack. I wish I had thought about all this when we originally made the plans. You guys are right, it does not hurt to have the passport card anyway just as a second form of ID.Live and learn. Please keep your fingers crossed that I will still be able to get a reservation, hope the train does not sell out. Thank you again
> ...


That birth certificate will not work for many things - for example, for geneology projects they always want to see the name of the father and the mother. I am in the process of joining DAR and a birth certificate like that would not be considered sufficient.


----------



## JoeBas (Jun 13, 2013)

It was a different country in 1918. People weren't so hung up and anal.


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Jun 13, 2013)

JoeBas said:


> It was a different country in 1918. People weren't so hung up and anal.


Yeah, back then nobody was hung up on silly anal things like equality and civil rights.


----------



## Ryan (Jun 13, 2013)

I also don't think that they had dot matrix printers.

Amamba, I hear you on the DAR thing - my wife is pulling her papers together and the poor/missing documentation is a real pain in the neck.


----------



## amamba (Jun 13, 2013)

Ryan said:


> I also don't think that they had dot matrix printers.
> Amamba, I hear you on the DAR thing - my wife is pulling her papers together and the poor/missing documentation is a real pain in the neck.


It is a HUGE undertaking but also really fun! Hopefully her chapter has some younger folks in it - mine is me plus all the seniors.


----------



## iowa train fan (Jun 13, 2013)

No I do not mind, we are in Pennsylvania too, she had bought the prior BD to get her driver's license when we moved back to PA from Iowa.


----------



## zephyr17 (Jun 13, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Have you tried making the reservation online? It's been a while since I looked but it didn't seem to need my passport numbers in the past. Perhaps you just give a bogus number and then call to correct it before traveling or cancel it and rebook. I'm not sure how big of a deal this is to you but it's possible you can work this issue through multiple paths.


I go to Vancouver on the Cascades quite a bit, and the website requires your documentation type and number (Passport/Passport Card/Enhanced Driver's license/Nexus card) to be entered in order to complete the registration. It has been like that for some years. In fact, when enhanced DLs came out, it took awhile before the site was updated to accept it.
If that section isn't filled out, you can't complete the reservation.


----------



## BCL (Jun 13, 2013)

amamba said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > iowa train fan said:
> ...


The state itself says that walk-in requests may take up to five days to process, although I'm not sure why if it's pulled up from an electronic database. I suppose there's a chance that a birth record isn't in the database and they have to find the original record and enter the information into the database. They say that geneology requests may even take longer, as I I'm guessing they almost always will need to find info that isn't in a database and need to pull all that up from the original paper record. Or maybe for those requests they'll actually scan the original document and print the image on the security paper.


----------



## BCL (Jun 13, 2013)

Ryan said:


> I also don't think that they had dot matrix printers.
> Amamba, I hear you on the DAR thing - my wife is pulling her papers together and the poor/missing documentation is a real pain in the neck.


A lot of the examples I've seen of this particular document format were issued in the late 70s and early 80s. I think Pennsylvania was among the first to employ computerized records for birth documents, although it looks like they put in the bare minimum information. It was probably someone sitting at a keyboard with a bunch of original birth records entering them one at a time; lots of states that have gone mostly electronic have done this. However, once the first record was entered with minimal information, they probably didn't update the file unless they really had to (like for a post-2011 passport application). Around that time, electronic storage was at a premium. I even remember when there were punch cards and a 10 MB hard drive weighed about 20 lbs (my mom was given a dead one by her boss and I got to play with it). That kind of mission critical storage was expensive and you'd get things like two digit years and abbreviations to try to make the most of limited or expensive resources.

That particular doc looks like it was printed on an Epson MX-80 or a similar vintage printer. Even the newer ones look like they're printed with more modern dot-matrix printers and with two digit years. I think they might even at the point where there are people nearing or over 100 who are going to have issues with the birth certificates because they don't have four-digit years.

Pennsylvania seems to have gotten into computerized records early, but apparently they haven't updated their underlying software to at least take advantage of cheaper storage. I'm thinking they probably just had someone reprogram the software to be compatible with newer equipment but didn't change what it could actually do.


----------



## BCL (Jun 13, 2013)

JoeBas said:


> It was a different country in 1918. People weren't so hung up and anal.


I'm pretty sure that the original document (or at least some electronic/microfilm/photostat image of it) is on file somewhere. There's probably a document out there with specific family information, the name/signature of the attendant, and signatures.


----------



## SarahZ (Jun 16, 2013)

Devil's Advocate said:


> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> > It was a different country in 1918. People weren't so hung up and anal.
> ...


Because they were too busy fighting in WWI and working 80-hour weeks alongside their children.


----------



## JoeBas (Jun 16, 2013)

In other words, worrying about real problems instead of inventing new ones.


----------



## SarahZ (Jun 16, 2013)

My response was sarcastic. I don't have any problem with being required to prove who I am and that I have a right to enter other countries when I travel abroad, and I say that as someone who misses how easy it used to be to go to Canada for dinner whenever we got tired of the restaurants in Ann Arbor and Detroit.


----------

