# MCI J4500



## Swadian Hardcore

Check out Motor Coach Industries' new Restyled J4500 with many improvements and features to further its standing as the best-selling coach in North America since 2004. The new model year (2015) entered production in August 2014, through the major restyled design was the 2013 model year. It is modeled heavily upon airliner degisn.

This J4500 has a ZF independent front suspension (IFS) to reduce the turning circle from 47 feet to 40 feet 11 inches. With the further addition of an optional steerable tag axle, the turning circle can be reduced to 38 feet 11 inches.

The J4500 comes with ACTIA multiplexed electronics, six 15-inch flat screen TV's, and an optional Media Center for the group leader to make presentations on the monitors by inserting a Removable Disk.

The J4500 is now available with optional blue LED night lighting, all interior courtesy lighting is now LED. New reading light and air vent modules were added to the bottoms of the parcel racks. These modules also include new "fasten seat belt" LED's, and the J4500 has the largest parcel racks in the industry, enclosed curved overhead bins with 150 cubic feet storage space, similar to a Boeing 757 airliner. The headlights, turn signals, and taillights are all LED.

The J4500, as always, comes with a spiral staircase and a long 315-inch wheelbase. It is built with a T304 stainless-steel tube frame and fiberglass/Kevlar plating. New improvements to the suspension, including the new MCI Dynamic Suspension System (MDSS) with wide-ride air bellows and ZF IFS, promise a smoother ride for passengers.

The J4500 has the highest driver's seat in the industry, along with other MCI models including the D and E, to offer unparalleled vision, minimal driver separation from passengers, and a big crumple zone in the lower front cap.

Since 2013, the J4500 has boasted new looks with a sharper roof cap that's designed to be painted black for a luxurious look. It is available with Cummins ISX12 (11.9L) 425hp or Daimler's Detroit Diesel DD13 (13L) 410hp, coupled to the standard Allison B500 transmission. New ergonomic driver dash has better-placed controls but still fails to solve the problem of the high dashboard.

The new J4500 has boasted exceptional average fuel economy in flat-course tests, 10.27 mpg at 50 mph, 10.04 mpg at 55 mph, 9.62 mpg at 60 mpg, 8.87 mpg at 65 mph, and 7.96 mpg at 70 mph. The J4500 is always governed at 70-75 mph, but can achieve up to 10 mph more by tailwind and downhill gravity factors. Removing or disabled the speed governor is strictly illegal.

J4500 safety feature include window escape bars along the entire length of the passenger windows for anyone to easily escape, Electronic Stability Control, and automatic fire extinguishers. The window escape bar is important as the large parcel racks mean a passenger absolutely cannot stand up near the window.

Check out MCI's J4500 brochure: http://www.mcicoach.com/literatureAssets/2014-J4500/#1/z. 

The easiest way to describe the J4500 is: Just like a plane.


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## Green Maned Lion

Dude, if it has a 41/38 turning circle I'll eat my shorts. The minimum turning circle for a 45 foot

Bus is 45 feet. Even if you mount the bloody thing on Caterpillar tracks and spin it in a circle, it's 45 feet. You can't get around this unless the bus bends.


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## railiner

Perhaps they are measuring the circle that the front tire makes? It is a puzzle.....


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## Swadian Hardcore

I just copied it from MCI's news release. But then how come the X3-45 with IFS turns in 42.6' and the H3-45 with IFS, 41.5'?


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## rickycourtney

MCI is measuring the turning radius curb-to-curb not wall-to-wall. It's possible to have a shorter turning radius curb-to-curb because a bumper can, in theory, safely go over a curb during a turn. But there are a lot of factors at play, not the least of which is that the curb has to be pretty short for modern bus to clear.

I think it's humorous that MCI advertises having the largest overhead storage bins in the industry. As we've discussed before, overhead bins on buses are mostly useless. They're only big enough to hold a small duffel bag, purse or backpack, but you can't fit a roll aboard suitcase in it (which is what needs to fit to be truly useful).


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## Swadian Hardcore

The parcel racks can be useful though, and the J4500 parcel racks might be the only ones that have a chance of fitting a small suitcase. I'll have to test it out when I next get into a E/G/J.

Fitting a backpack is still useful, the other motorcoach parcel racks can't even fit a large backpack. I've seen people trying to stuff a large filled backpack into the parcel racks of a D4505 and failing. It just wouldn't go in.

The front overhang of the J is 78.25 inches, not too bad. The Van Hool TX40/45 have 83.4 inches. I think the main goal of the short turning circle is better handling by the driver. It just turns corners real smooth.

Also, the Restyled J has new, super-durable bumpers intended for line-haul use. MCI has stated an intention to make the J and D closer to each other, in the hopes that the J can take over the line-haul market as it is selling much better than the D.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> MCI has stated an intention to make the J and D closer to each other, in the hopes that the J can take over the line-haul market as it is selling much better than the D.


MCI has said that they want to bring the J4500 and D-model coaches closer together, but not for that reason.
The reason is that the more parts that are shared, the lower the cost of manufacturing (bigger profits for MCI) and maintenance (lower cost of operation for owners).

So long as Greyhound exists, there will be a market for a coach designed specifically for line-haul service.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but Greyhound isn't ordering the D4505 right now, nor do they want to order the D4505 due to its fuel guzzling. The D4505 doesn't come with DD13, and MCI has stated it will NOT develop the DD13 for the D's because most D's are currently selling to the public sector which requires Buy America, and the DD13 is a Daimler engine that doesn't comply with Buy America.

Meanwhile, in the private sector, operators are almost always choosing the J4500.

D4505 sales are very low right now. Greyhound has four choices with MCI: (1) request them to build the D4505 with DD13 at the threat of never ordering a MCI again, (2) order the J4500 with extra durability and DD13, (3) continue to order the D4505 with ISX12 and guzzle fuel, or (4), never order MCI again, go all-Prevost.

#3 probably won't happen because Greyhound is trying to increase their profit margin from 7% to 12%. #4 won't happen because ordering only from one manufacturer takes pressure off building a good product. Switching around is good practice for a big company like Greyhound, instead of putting all the eggs into one basket (which failed with the G4500).

The X3-45 is mainly built for Greyhound and some Quebecoise operators, the latter will always order their local Quebec products and the former needs to order MCI's once in a while or else Prevost's X3-45 quality would likely drop, as other customers go for the H3-45.

So Greyhound will either pressure MCI to make the D4505 better, or simply order the J4500 which is available right now, very efficient, slightly cheaper than the D4505 (yes, MCI told me that!), and has been used on line-haul by other operators (Tornado, Burlington, Peter Pan) with some success.

From MCI's perspective, they don't want to develop the D4505 with DD13 unless Greyhound shows a commitment, and Greyhound doesn't want to show a commitment, so they are making the J4500 more durable for line-haul.


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## rickycourtney

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Yeah, but Greyhound isn't ordering the D4505 right now, nor do they want to order the D4505 due to its fuel guzzling. The D4505 doesn't come with DD13, and MCI has stated it will NOT develop the DD13 for the D's because most D's are currently selling to the public sector which requires Buy America, and the DD13 is a Daimler engine that doesn't comply with Buy America.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the private sector, operators are almost always choosing the J4500.
> 
> D4505 sales are very low right now. Greyhound has four choices with MCI: (1) request them to build the D4505 with DD13 at the threat of never ordering a MCI again, (2) order the J4500 with extra durability and DD13, (3) continue to order the D4505 with ISX12 and guzzle fuel, or (4), never order MCI again, go all-Prevost.
> 
> #3 probably won't happen because Greyhound is trying to increase their profit margin from 7% to 12%. #4 won't happen because ordering only from one manufacturer takes pressure off building a good product. Switching around is good practice for a big company like Greyhound, instead of putting all the eggs into one basket (which failed with the G4500).
> 
> The X3-45 is mainly built for Greyhound and some Quebecoise operators, the latter will always order their local Quebec products and the former needs to order MCI's once in a while or else Prevost's X3-45 quality would likely drop, as other customers go for the H3-45.
> 
> So Greyhound will either pressure MCI to make the D4505 better, or simply order the J4500 which is available right now, very efficient, slightly cheaper than the D4505 (yes, MCI told me that!), and has been used on line-haul by other operators (Tornado, Burlington, Peter Pan) with some success.
> 
> From MCI's perspective, they don't want to develop the D4505 with DD13 unless Greyhound shows a commitment, and Greyhound doesn't want to show a commitment, so they are making the J4500 more durable for line-haul.


I see what you're saying but I don't agree with your logic. Prevost is the underdog in the market. They have an incentive to build a better product. Their quality won't slip simply because Greyhound stops ordering from MCI. The company is still trying to break into the transit market with the X3-45 Commuter.

As I understand it, the reason Greyhound ordered from both was not to increase competition but because neither company could produce buses as fast as they needed.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I also don't think it would be terribly hard to place a Detroit Diesel engine into the D4505. The only engineering changes would be to the engine mount (not exactly tough).

Here's my question, if Greyhound is so disappointed with the D4505, why would they buy the J4500 (a bus they really don't have in their fleet), instead of buying more X3-45s?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Why? Well, what if Prevost drops their quality for Greyhound deliveries? They don't have a fixed assembly line, and knowing Greyhound likes Prevost too much, they might cut some corners on the X builds. People could do anything for money. The Restyled J4500 is efficient and capable while being the bestseller for ten years, sometimes used for line-haul. Burlington Trailways ordered some new J4500's to replace their D4505's on line-haul, presumably due to fuel-guzzling. Every Burlington I saw in Greyhound Denver, running the daily service to/from Indianapolis, was a Restyled J4500. They are selling their unreliable early J4500's with problematic CAT/ZF powertrain.

The would buy J4500's to diversify instead of letting Prevost get all the orders. With components that are increasingly similar to the D4505, it shouldn't be that difficult. When Greyhound had no Prevost's, they still tried the X3-45 in small numbers, then ordered large numbers. There's no saying the J4500 won't be the same. Many smaller operators run the D4505 and J4500 parallel. As I understand it, the J is a E/G with D components. Greyhound has both the D and G, the J would be the middle ground.

It's probably not that simple but when MCI introduced the J, they made a news release saying the J "does not have any new technology, everything has been used in previous coaches, now put together in a new package." Versatility was emphasized in the J.

Prevost is trying to break into the transit market with the X3-45 Commuter, but commuter routes are different from line-haul. Commuter agencies give orders to the lowest bidder, and commuter buses don't rack up many miles anyway, mostly being used for rush hour, we can agree. MCI likely cut corners on the D line because they were selling too many D4500 Commuter Coaches at low rates. When MCI hadn't starting building so many D Commuters, their quality was better. The 102DL3 is likely better-quality than the D4505. The D4505's are really inconsistent. Some ride smooth while others rock around. Some go fast while others slack. Some are impressive while others are big fat troublemakers.

If Greyhound orders all-Prevost, then other line-haul companies also order the X3-45, then Prevost breaks through with the X3-45 Commuter, that would make MCI the underdog. That would make the X3-45 unchallenged. The J4500 would probably still outsell the expensive H3-45, which is also less efficient now since the H still uses a lot of halogen lights, but the D would be dead. If Prevost is determined to break through with the X3-45 Commuter, they'll have to outbid the D4500 Commuter. A volatile situation.

The D4505 might beat the X3-45 if it was available with the DD13. The D4505 is lighter than the X3-45 so it would probably save fuel. But MCI isn't interested in developing that, I inquired and they said no, ain't happening. However, with the new IFS and MDSS, the J4500 could challenge the X3-45. After all, the J has loads of efficiency, all-LED's that are long-lasting and easily outlast the halogen interior lights of the X3-45. They also come in many colors for night-lighting and mood lighting at minimal extra cost. They can't extend the wheelbase of the J, with the rear overhang wheelchair lift, but they could extend the wheelbase of the D given IFS, and put in the DD13.

Seems like MCI wanted Greyhound to buy the D4505 with ISX12, which Greyhound ordered 130, but Greyhound did bad with those units and cancelled the order. Now it seems like MCI wants Greyhound to buy the J4500 with DD13, Greyhound wants MCI to build DD13-powered D4505's, others at Greyhound want the Prevost X3-45, but Dave Leach is wary of putting all the eggs into one basket, what happened with the G4500, while Prevost is looking on.

My expectation is that Greyhound will test the DD13-powered J4500 and see what happens. If they like it, they're probably order both the J4500 and the X3-45, if they don't, then they'll order only X3-45's. Or Greyhound might make the stupid decision to order more ISX12-powered D4505's, guzzling fuel.


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## railiner

rickycourtney said:


> I think it's humorous that MCI advertises having the largest overhead storage bins in the industry. As we've discussed before, overhead bins on buses are mostly useless. They're only big enough to hold a small duffel bag, purse or backpack, but you can't fit a roll aboard suitcase in it (which is what needs to fit to be truly useful).


I think you can fit a rollaboard in, but not 'wheels first', like in an airliner over a three-abreast seat. But you can fit them in 'side-ways'......so you cannot get as many in.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Let's see, a standard full-size airline carryon is 28"x14"x9". The cross section of the J4500 parcel racks is about 18"x16" I think, with a little extra towards the outboard side, so you should be able to fit them in. Now that 28" is the problem. The length is probably about 448" on the long side, so you're looking at putting in 16 on the long side and probably 14 on the short side with the wheelchair lift cutoff, 30 of them in total.

There's 54 seats in a standard J4500, and the J4500 has parcel racks about as big as they get.


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## Green Maned Lion

Only when a company is run by idiots do they drop their quality. Greyhound has dropped buying from MCI because of the superiority of Prevost products. Why in gods name would they want to drop their quality on Greyhound deliveries? I assume they would like to remain Greyhounds preferred bus supplier for decades.


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## rickycourtney

In my own personal experience, I've never seen a overhead storage bin on a bus that could accommodate my full size airline style rollaboard. The D4505 can at best fit a child sized rolling suitcase. I know that from experience helping a woman place one in the overhead bin on a Greyhound bus. That small bag barely fit and we fought the bungee cord the whole time (another reason why I prefer doors). I have a hard time imagining the overhead bins on the J4500 are much bigger especially since they have doors that open inward.

That being said, it's a pain on airlines having to wait as everyone drags their bag onboard and hoists them up into the overhead bins, so it's sort of nice that most passengers on buses have to check their bags at the curb.


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## rickycourtney

Green Maned Lion said:


> Only when a company is run by idiots do they drop their quality. Greyhound has dropped buying from MCI because of the superiority of Prevost products. Why in gods name would they want to drop their quality on Greyhound deliveries? I assume they would like to remain Greyhounds preferred bus supplier for decades.


+1


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## Swadian Hardcore

I wouldn't say Prevost's quality is superior, it's just that they have superior efficiency due to having a better engine. They have a somewhat superior ride due to having a longer wheelbase. They have more headroom due to having a lower deck. Those are design elements, not build quality. The D4505's aren't falling apart like the G4500's, they are just guzzling fuel. They're also disliked by drivers due to firm steering. The old DL3 had more sensitive, responsive steering, I've heard.

Considering some 2013 X3-45's are already having strips off the undercarriage, I wouldn't say they're better quality than MCI. Greyhound has 2010 D4505's with damage, but the 2013 D4505's are still cool. Ironically, the old rebuilt 102DL3's now have barely any damage.

The issue is primarily Daimler and Volvo being better than Cummins, not Prevost being better than MCI. The H3-45 is still getting beat by the J4500 with its LED's, so MCI quality isn't crap at all.

Yes, the J4500 has significantly larger parcel racks than the D4505. The D4505 has 109 cubic feet. The J4500 (and out-of-production E4500/G4500) has 150 cubic feet. The X3-45 has 107 cubic feet and the H3-45 has 117 cubic feet. The J4500 significantly leads every other coach in production when it comes to parcel racks.

Edit: typo


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## Swadian Hardcore

Look at what I found: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5uaoqsl4s02k2ui/CoxgVhRHZh#lh:null-J4500_people8.jpg.

Proof that a standard airline-size carryon fits into the parcel racks of a J4500.

See, there's one convenience advantage than no other production coach has, no wonder the J4500 is the bestseller. They have the only motorcoach parcel racks that are "actually very useful".


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## rickycourtney

That proves what exactly?

That bag appears to be a large briefcase not a rollaboard. Something like this: http://www.brookstone.com/clava-business-class-leather-rolling-briefcase


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## Swadian Hardcore

Better than a D4505, X3-45, or H3-45! From that angle, you can't see if it's a large briefcase or a rollaboard suitcase.

The height of those parcel racks don't look to be much less than this 757: http://www.chimcclean.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/img_1575.jpg.

The fact that the D4505 has small parcel racks means nothing since the D4505 has much smaller rack sizes on the spec sheet.

And you probably don't want rollaboards with wheels on buses considering how much of an issue that already causes in planes, even with large bins. It's still useful for a J4500 to accommodate large backpacks that no competitor is able to accommodate.

As for the airline-size carryons, I'll have to try it to be convinced it won't fit.

Here's more J4500 pics: http://www.ttmg.org/pages/tmci/peterpan-mcid.html.

Don't disregard the innovative built-in trash receptacle with overlapping doors at the back, or the spiral staircase carried over for the E and also used on the G. Or the newly-added LED lights that aren't included in those photos.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The versatility of the J4500, which backs up its popularity, is showcased in these 11 J4500 Commuters with bike racks (including 8 with lifts) running around Montreal; they are owned by Orleans Express: http://www.metro-magazine.com/news/story/2011/08/mci-delivers-to-montreal.aspx.

Orleans Express also operates intercity J4500's alongside their H3-45 and X3-45 units, despite being a Quebec company that is pro-Prevost. They had never run the J4500 before 2009, but now they have quite a few in line-haul service. Their latest coach order was actually for the H3-45 in 2014, before that they bought one TD925 in 2013, and J4500's, H3-45's, and X3-45's in 2012.

Here's one of their J's, which I think looks quite sharp: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/14091641325/in/set-72157632643052423.

Mixed with Prevosts:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/8427523951/in/set-72157632643052423

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/8427523715/in/set-72157632643052423

One pulls out of Quebec City for Montreal: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/7977879728/in/set-72157632643052423.

Quebec City: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerarddonnelly/6751888645/in/set-72157632643052423.

In a Prevost-dominated yard: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4753958750/sizes/l.


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## rickycourtney

Look, I think the 2014 redesign to the J4500 while long overdue, was well done.

I like the LED lighting, I like the curved stairs, I even like that they made the overhead bins bigger.

Clearly MCI is focusing on positioning this a luxury coach that can replace the E series, but at the J price point.

But I know what you are thinking and I don't see Greyhound making the J4500 the next addition to the fleet, just as I don't see them buying the Prevost H3-45 or the Setra TopClass S 417.

Speaking of Setra and overhead storage... I've always been intrigued by their overhead baggage shelves. It seems like they would offer a ton of space, I just don't know how they keep items from being flung out during hard breaking or cornering. I imagine those Germans have some sort of clever solution, my guess is that they are slanted and have a lip of some sort.


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## Green Maned Lion

Swadian you are looking at the wrong metrics. Greyhound cares about three, and only if all three are equal will they bother to care about anything else.

In order of relevance:

1) MTBF: mean time between failure. Nothing is more expensive for a company than a performance asset out of service. Not the cost of the repair; that's not nearly as important. If that bus is down for a week, you lose a weeks revenue and may have to bump customers.

2) Cost of Operation: fuel, repair, and regular servicing. Yes, this is a factor in selecting the Provost, I'm sure, but if it failed in category one it would probably have not been considered in category two.

3) Financial Efficacy: In business we don't pay any attention to the purchase price of capital assets, except when negotiating the purchase. A $100,000 bus or a $200,000 bus- makes no difference. We talk about things in terms of time service cost. We assume a operation time cycle, let's say 15 years for a bus. We take the purchasing costs estimated over 15 years, subtract from it the estimated asset recovery (sale price) and then add all estimated operating costs (fuel, taxes, tolls, repairs, and maintain). Then we divide that number by relevant years, and then multiply by 15.

If the $100,000 bus needs to be replaced every ten years and the $200,000 bus every 20, then we have to assume $150k in purchasing cost since we have to but 1.5 busses to maintain or 15 year operation assumption. Likewise, we have to subtract 25%. And we find the actual capital costs of the two busses are in fact the same.

That yearly number is the busses costs. I doubt greyhound would care about life cycle length of the bus if it didn't financially pan out. Either that or they are so cash strapped they are gutting themselves on operating costs to make up for their inability to maintain proper capital investment.


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## Swadian Hardcore

You're not wrong, but aren't they pretty much the same thing? It's probably MDBF not MTBF. So low MDBF means high cost of operation and low financial efficiency. So I'm thinking they're pretty much the same thing.

Now look at the J for a sec, it has high MDBF, very high fuel efficiency, and a decent price. When it comes to making money, the J isn't bad.

But there's new news that Prevost is undercutting J and D prices with the H. Yes, the H, the H3-45, not the Shorty H3-41!

H3-45 prices are currently around D4000/D4005 prices!

Don't believe me? Ask Prevost.


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## rickycourtney

Again back to my previous post, Prevost is the underdog in this fight. It doesn't surprise me at all that the company might be willing to settle for narrower margin to increase market share.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Yeah, but Prevost isn't increasing market share of the H, their H is slightly cheaper and still getting outsold by the J. In fact, Prevost's own X best their H orders when Greyhound took the lead with a large order and minor operators plus that commuter order pumped up the numbers.

H operators still greatly outnumber X operators. I'm thinking the H has even more sales now that they are cheaper, and the X is perhaps the same price. Prevost is making the current H surprisingly basic, the standard features are open parcel racks, no TV's, halogen lights, no engine brake or retarder, no IFS, and no wheelchair lift. All those are options, but with the same options, the H is still slightly cheaper than the J, though of course the H is not available with LED interior lights, LED projector headlights, spiral staircase, or bigger parcel racks that are all standard in the J.

Perhaps one reason the H is so cheap is because the standard version is so basic and then they let customers customize the options.

But at this point I would champion the J over the H because of all the modern-yet-proven features.

Surprising turn of events.


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## railiner

Looks to me, Swadian, from all this recent enthusiasm, that the J4500 has replaced the DL3 as your fave...... 

I am somewhat surprised, that in the partial redesign of the J, that they didn't change its model number, as in past practice....something akin to "J4505"......?


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## Swadian Hardcore

Naw, the DL3 is still my fave, my avatar and sig are still the DL3, right? But the DL3 isn't allowed in California anymore, a somewhat major problem if you are living right by California. As for coaches currently in production, yeah, I'd say my favorite is probably the J4500 followed by H3-45, no longer than guzzler D4505 for sure! Not a fan of the X3-45's window design, I think it was great back in 1976 when the LeMirage was first introduced , not in 2014 anymore.

Bus operator in Louisiana (Lewis Coaches) says the Restyled J4500 is far better than the pre-2013 J4500. Also agreed upon by Peter Pan drivers. So they have got to be pretty dang good.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Greyhound Canada 102EL3 here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mbernero/6894864011/sizes/l.

From the rear: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busfreak2013/8699349133/sizes/l.

Another one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/busfreak2013/8007854005/sizes/l.

Looks like the Restyled J4500 was very much modeled after the original 102EL3 which was also quite a bit more attractive than the original J4500 IMO, because of the roof cap design.


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