# A new Super Chief



## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 3, 2016)

Are there any plans for a private/ other Amtrak trains that could travel the original SC route, with the level of service being just as good/ better than before?


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## Anthony V (Jul 3, 2016)

Unfortunately, that is a HUGE pipe dream given the current environment of passenger rail in the USA.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 3, 2016)

Check this thread for previous discussion:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64161-routing-of-a-canadian-style-cross-country-train-under-amtrak/page-2?hl=warrington

Meanwhile, back in the day, Amtrak CEO George Warrington (1988-1992), promoted a plan (market-based strategy or some such name) to expand Amtrak coverage. He wanted to add express freight service and hitch a few passenger cars on new express runs like Louisville and Fond-du-Lac, WI. The announced plan was gonna include a thru train NYC-L.A., tho I suspect that may have been what today is called click bait. Anyway, the whole express thing collapsed and Mr Warrington moved on to other opportunities elsewhere (Jersey Transit).

I like the idea of a premium train to be Amtrak's flagship. But on my list of where money (and political energy) needs to be spent, it's way waaay down the priorities list.


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## KmH (Jul 3, 2016)

The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.

With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.

For example, many of the long distance trains run a truncated consist during low season.

The California Zephyr loses a sleeper car and a coach car during low season.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 3, 2016)

KmH said:


> The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.
> 
> With the exception of the main travel season (high season), essentially the last 1/2 of spring and the summer months, Amtrak has trouble attracting enough riders.
> 
> ...


 what about buisness travelers, they travel all year round, throw in high speed wifi, smooth ride, and good connection times, you could get a lot of shorter distance business travelers, CHI-KCY, or LAX-WMA, or business men travelling to big cities, without access to a big airport, and at a lower cost, because intermediate stops are of little extra cost to a train, where an airplane would take more than a week to fly from each station stop on the SWC, where currently it takes ~46H.


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## CCC1007 (Jul 4, 2016)

WMA is a small town, FLG has an existing thruway bus to Phoenix.

While business travelers would make a good demographic for Amtrak, trains simply are not in their equations, especially long distance trains.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 4, 2016)

I was using it as an example for a small town with a very small airport


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 4, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.
> ...


I traveled on business for many years. Unfortunately except on a few routes, Amtrak is not set up for business travel. Business Travel works on the Northeast Corridor, the Surfliner route, The Capitol Corridor and maybe some Midwestern corridors. I have used the Crescent from Washington to Atlanta and Silver Meteor from the Northeast to Jacksonville for business, but it was usually more expensive than flying so I had to pay for the Sleeper Accommodations out of my own pocket. I wish the US had train service comparable to Europe, Japan and a few other places where business travel by train was practical.


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## west point (Jul 4, 2016)

The Super Chief brand name is owned by Santa Fe and successors and required Amtrak to drop that name due to substandard service. Allow name ? Forget it ! !


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## jis (Jul 4, 2016)

Amtrak was forced to forego the use of the word "Chief" in the name of their train for a while.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 4, 2016)

jis said:


> Amtrak was forced to forego the use of the word "Chief" in the name of their train for a while.


Yep, the Southwest Ltd.didnt have the same glamour of the famous Super Chief!

I also thought that the El Capitan,Santa Fe's Crack All Hi-Level Coach Train (that became Amtraks PPCs on the Coast Starlight) and that ran a similar Schedule between CHI and LAX, was an excellent name also!

Does BNSF still own that name also??


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 4, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.
> ...


WMA? Wherezat?

You lost me. Some of the cool kids like to use code, but I don't get it, so I get left out. And I'm sure not the only one.


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## CCC1007 (Jul 4, 2016)

WMA is Williams, Arizona.


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## Northeastern292 (Jul 6, 2016)

About the only new Super Chief I see happening (and even this is a pipe dream) is for the Southwest Chief to get new equipment and a second diner (a budget diner), but as for the second diner, even that's a pipe dream, especially with the GOP's obsession over making F&B profitable (which while should have losses minimized, shouldn't have service sacrificed as IIRC traditionally the pre-Amtrak trains lost money with F&B (even back in the glory days pre-1950).


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 8, 2016)

The only route I could see doing well with an all sleeper train would honestly be the Silver Meteor. It currently runs with three sleepers. And I think one time I've seen it with four. And capacity on them seems to be pretty full. But I'm not convinced that an all sleeper train would work.


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## neroden (Jul 8, 2016)

Yes, there were a few all-sleeper trains historically, but they typically had coach trains chasing their tails on the same route and almost the same timetable.

The only reason to make an all-sleeper train is if your coach-and-sleeper train has gotten too long for the platforms! Otherwise, it never hurts to add a coach...


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## west point (Jul 8, 2016)

If Amtrak ever had enough equipment ( realize it never will ) then a sleeper train might work.

How ?

Using the Meteor as an example. During heavy travel periods

Book sleeper passengers from NYP - WASH ( receive only ) to destinations Winter park / Orlando - MIA in certain cars

Once enough cars booked including coach plan a separate train of sleepers only that would run on Meteor schedule NYP - WASH. Coach 5 minutes behind.

Train would then run scheduled non stop WASH - Florence ( crew and servicing change as already done for auto train ) - Winter Park / Orlando ( crew change ) - MIA discharge only. Maybe even cut off sleepers for Tampa ?

Sleeper train probably would arrive MIA as much as 2+ hours earlier than coach section.

Note NYP - ATL might be another good route


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 9, 2016)

It's also impossible to do the original Super Chief route because San Bernardino CA to Los Angeles CA got broken and turned into Metro Gold Line so that section will be via Fullerton.


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## WoodyinNYC (Jul 9, 2016)

jphjaxfl said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> > KmH said:
> ...


I'm sure the Hiawatha has many business people.

Looking back at the big Stimulus projects that will kick in by next summer's deadline, they're all corridor-building projects that should increase business-related trips.

The Cascades not that long ago had a 60% on time performance. To get the Stimulus money for upgrades, WADOT signed a promise to raise the OTP to 88%, to add two more frequencies (from 4 plus the Coast Starlight to 6 plus the Starlight), and to shave 10 minutes off the Seattle-Portland run. In another thread, the WADOT reveals plans to make the first departure 1:30 earlier, at 6.m., to arrive Portland 9:30ish. The last departure will be moved back to 7ish, iirc. Vice versa Portland-Seattle. The intention is to allow same-day, go-and-return trips between the big cities to appeal to business travelers.

The Lincoln route, St Louis-CHI, will get many more business riders after the end-to-end trip time drops by about an hour. It already gets some business riders for the intermediate cities -- especially Springfield and Bloomington/Normal -- but will get more soon. It's now 4 Lincolns plus the Texas Eagle, will be 5 or 6 or 7 Lincolns plus the Eagle (the new schedule has not been made public.)

The Wolverines route is also due to get much better timetables, about 40 or 50 minutes faster. The time savings won't help as much going to CHI, because all the upgrades are Kalamazoo-Detroit, and DET-CHI will still be 5 hours. But already there are business travelers to/from Battle Creek, Ann Arbor, Dearborn, DET, and its northern suburbs where the 45 minutes saved will count for something.

North Carolina will cut the trip times Charlotte-Raleigh and add another frequency or two, including an earlier morning departure, aiming to gain more business travelers.

New York's Albany station revamping, double-tracking, and new signaling near the capitol city will reduce delays and improve on time performance, bringing even more business travelers to the Empire Corridor.

In Connecticut, the New Haven-Hartford-Springfield Shuttle route is being rebuilt as a commuter line with more frequencies and faster times. Lots more business people will ride this segment after the upgrades are done.

And Virginia is using Stimulus funds to add another track, rebuild a bridge, etc to take 10 minutes out of the time D.C.-Richmond. Now, as reported in another thread, VA won a grant for an added 14 miles of track in the same corridor. The Richmond trains haven't done quite as well as the Lynchburger and the Norfolk train, but a faster trip will get more business riders here too.

Not a Stimulus project, but the San Joaquin recently added a 7th train. An earlier start and some upgrades and tweaking the right of way will have it arrive in Oakland earlier than the current schedules, appealing to some with business in the Bay Area or vice versa in the Central Valley. Estimating 186,000 ridership for the 7th train that started last month, some of those will be business travelers. An 8th frequency is under preparation, with the idea of starting early morning in mid-Valley, rather than waiting for the first train out of Bakersfield to reach the several mid-Valley cities, thereby reaching the Bay Area even earlier and attracting more business riders.

Demonstrating again that the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak.


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## ParanoidAndroid (Jul 11, 2016)

Particularly for day trains. They're great.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 12, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> KmH said:
> 
> 
> > The vast majority of Amtrak customers ride in coach and don't ride for more than about 500 miles.
> ...


Business travelers WERE the Super Chief's target demographic. Santa Fe maintained the quality and speed of the service right to the end and business travelers deserted in droves.

No business traveler is going to spend the time to take the train when they can fly from LA to Albuquerque (a much better example than Williams, which is not exactly known as a business hub) or Chicago to Kansas CIty in a couple of hours. Also corporate travel departments will not pay for first class fares, which a Super Chief would be. If a business traveler wanted to get to, say, La Junta, that is what Hertz is for. Fly into Denver or maybe Colorado Springs and pick up a car.

Forget business travelers. For anything outside corridor services of 500 miles or less, they are gone for good. The speed of air travel trumped rail in the 1950s for business travel and it isn't coming back. Chicago-Kansas City is on the outer edge what a business traveler might consider if there was corridor service with relatively frequent, fast and reliable service, but a resurrected Super Chief, no.

I have taken Amtrak for business trips on a couple of occasions and in order to do it, I had to pay the accommodation charges myself (no first class, remember?) take personal days, and struggled with the Finance department that is wholly oriented towards airlines and doesn't understand rail fare structures to get reimbursed. It was a lot of hassle, worth it, but a lot of hassle.


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## jphjaxfl (Jul 12, 2016)

zephyr17 said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> > KmH said:
> ...


100% agreement.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 14, 2016)

In that case, HSR is the way to go, 220 MPH will beat an airplane from short to medium distances, like CHI-MSP, a route that I live at the MSP end of.

On a plane, you catch a train from downtown to the airport, (30 min), go through security (30-45 min), wait for your plane (60-90 min), board (10 min), taxi to the runway (5-15 min), takeoff (10 min) cruise (30 min) decend (15 min), land (5 min), get off (5-10 min), walk/ take tram to airport exit (10-20 min), catch the (MSP) blue line to downtown MPLS (15 min), and if you want to go to St. Paul, catch the green line.

total CHI-MPLS (225-295 min)

On a train you get to the train station (10-30 min), wait for boarding (10-30 min), board (10 min), go to St. Paul, (180 min) get off (5 min), and if you want to go MPLS, catch the green line to MPLS.

total CHI-MSP HSR:205-255 min

This applies to many situations,

SAS AUS DFW

HOU DFW

CHI STL KCY

CHI MKE Madison Lacro, Roch, MSP

San Diego LAX San Louis Ob. SFO

WAS BAL PHL NYP NHV PVD BOS

and many more, I am a little iffy on abbreviations, hopefully you can make sense of them


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## CCC1007 (Jul 14, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> In that case, HSR is the way to go, 220 MPH will beat an airplane from short to medium distances, like CHI-MSP, a route that I live at the MSP end of.
> 
> On a plane, you catch a train from downtown to the airport, (30 min), go through security (30-45 min), wait for your plane (60-90 min), board (10 min), taxi to the runway (5-15 min), takeoff (10 min) cruise (30 min) decend (15 min), land (5 min), get off (5-10 min), walk/ take tram to airport exit (10-20 min), catch the (MSP) blue line to downtown MPLS (15 min), and if you want to go to St. Paul, catch the green line.
> 
> ...


Have you done any research into which corridors are already set up for trips like this?
WAS to NYP already has semi-highspeed in the form of the NER and Acela, and the California HSR is already under construction.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 18, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> > In that case, HSR is the way to go, 220 MPH will beat an airplane from short to medium distances, like CHI-MSP, a route that I live at the MSP end of.
> ...


 no research, well nit much, just a few feasibility reports, but some of these are perfect candidates for rails up construction, with many supporters, but not enough, in most cases


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## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 3, 2016)

The only way I could see business travelers going back to rail would be something catastrophic happening to the airline industry such as a massive solar flare knocking out planes (and that would be temporary and too short lived for rail to build up quickly enough) or some sort of terrorist action. Or perhaps a fuel issue which rail electrification could work around.


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## west point (Aug 3, 2016)

Airlines could be severely disabled if another volcano such as Iceland, Indonesia, Philippines, or Mt St. Helens throws a lot of ash in the air. o


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## CCC1007 (Aug 3, 2016)

west point said:


> Airlines could be severely disabled if another volcano such as Iceland, Indonesia, Philippines, or Mt St. Helens throws a lot of ash in the air. o


Or if the Yellowstone hotspot kicks off, likely in the mountains south of Livingston, MT, which could plunge us into up to ten years of volcanic winter.


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## Caesar La Rock (Aug 3, 2016)

If Yellowstone goes off, we won't have to worry about traveling for a while, tell you that much. Thankfully it's not due for an eruption for a while.


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## railiner (Aug 3, 2016)

west point said:


> Airlines could be severely disabled if another volcano such as Iceland, Indonesia, Philippines, or Mt St. Helens throws a lot of ash in the air. o


They could go back to using radial piston engines...


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## Carolina Special (Aug 4, 2016)

Airline and private jet travel being curtailed to combat global warming would certainly help passenger train traffic. Not likely to happen, however, as the ruling classes like their ability to fly around as desired.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 4, 2016)

west point said:


> Airlines could be severely disabled if another volcano such as Iceland, Indonesia, Philippines, or Mt St. Helens throws a lot of ash in the air. o


 I don't need Mt. St. Helens anymore, since I've hiked it, it can blow up again, then I will hike it again. How big are the other volcanoes? Could that affect air travel across the world?


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## keelhauled (Aug 4, 2016)

Carolina Special said:


> Airline and private jet travel being curtailed to combat global warming would certainly help passenger train traffic. Not likely to happen, however, as the ruling classes like their ability to fly around as desired.


And the unruling classes like their ability to travel cheaply and quickly


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## CCC1007 (Aug 4, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > Airlines could be severely disabled if another volcano such as Iceland, Indonesia, Philippines, or Mt St. Helens throws a lot of ash in the air. o
> ...


The one I cited is one of the largest on the planet, and it would be very hard to survive anywhere in the northern hemisphere if it goes off at the larger eruption levels it's capable of.


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## jis (Aug 4, 2016)

keelhauled said:


> Carolina Special said:
> 
> 
> > Airline and private jet travel being curtailed to combat global warming would certainly help passenger train traffic. Not likely to happen, however, as the ruling classes like their ability to fly around as desired.
> ...


Actually it is to quite an extent. the latter. The net travel done by the ruling class could be accommodated in relatively small number of flights specially if they can be herded off of private jets and onto commercial jets and raise fares enough so as to make it difficult for the masses to use flights, like it used to be before deregulation.

Of course it depends on who is considered the ruling classes. The top one percentile? five percentile? ten percentile? The answer changes slowly as ylou make the size of the "ruling class" larger and larger.


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 5, 2016)

Well. this has certainly gotten off-track. Volcanos? Really?

The only way a luxury "Super Chief" would return would be as a privately-run service like the American Orient Express. Of course attempts to run such services in the U.S. in the past have all failed, so I wouldn't count on such a train being successful. I also wouldn't count on business travelers flocking to LD trains. On 500 miles or less corridor service, yes. LD, no.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 5, 2016)

Part of the failure of the AOE was it didn't have enough ridership. When you think most sleepers only had five rooms. And each car requires additional horsepower. That poor marketing, Amtrak, and a recession hit. It was a beautiful train. But their equipment in the final years wasn't that great from what I've heard and would cost a lot to keep it to standard. Especially if any cars came due for a 40 year truck inspection. So yes the concept could work but if someone tries it again they need to watch carefully the failures that proceeded before them. And correct those.


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## railiner (Aug 5, 2016)

It looks like the latest version, Pullman Rail Journey's, has also called it quits, or perhaps gone 'on hiatus'....I looked at their website, and they don't seem to offer regular service hitched to the CONO currently....

On the other hand...operations like Rocky Mountaineer, as well as the various cruise line cars hitched to the Alaska RR are still going strong....


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 6, 2016)

PRJ officially got suspended last winter. Amtrak has refused to carry them from what I've heard. Not sure if it was putting a dent in amtrak's revenue for first class. They are still technically around but I honestly don't know what they are doing. And my source is from hearing things while working other pv's so secondhand and some first hand I work with iph people too


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## railiner (Aug 6, 2016)

That's interesting....I wonder what legal basis Amtrak has for choosing which private cars it will or won't carry? As long as they meet FRA and Amtrak safety standards....


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## jis (Aug 6, 2016)

As I recall there were certain subtle non compliance issues at play at least in one case that I am aware of.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 6, 2016)

I don't remember the reason. I know they suspended it with a major service disruption to the CONO. Amtrak has the right to deny anything I believe. And if your chartering from them good luck. If they don't know you or like you good luck.


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## railiner (Aug 7, 2016)

Could be...I have not heard of anyone challenging them about it...


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 7, 2016)

If you want to get stuff out of Amtrak it's best to be a member of AAPRCO and RPCA as they have liaisons to deal with Amtrak for you.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Aug 10, 2016)

Caesar La Rock said:


> If Yellowstone goes off, we won't have to worry about traveling for a while, tell you that much. Thankfully it's not due for an eruption for a while.


That's a relief - I'm heading to that area tonight!


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## CCC1007 (Aug 10, 2016)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> > If Yellowstone goes off, we won't have to worry about traveling for a while, tell you that much. Thankfully it's not due for an eruption for a while.
> ...


If it goes off in a big way, no human is safe from its effects. Most of the population base in Montana is in the immediate kill zone, and the rest of the state would be dead in the first day...


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## looshi (Aug 10, 2016)

railiner said:


> That's interesting....I wonder what legal basis Amtrak has for choosing which private cars it will or won't carry? As long as they meet FRA and Amtrak safety standards....


I heard that IPH had negotiated a special rate for the CONO below the normal PV charges. When that contract expired they were unable to come to an agreement on a renewal and IPH decided not to continue with the service if they were going to have to pay the full PV rate.


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## railiner (Aug 10, 2016)

looshi said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > That's interesting....I wonder what legal basis Amtrak has for choosing which private cars it will or won't carry? As long as they meet FRA and Amtrak safety standards....
> ...


Now that sounds like a more logical explanation....I can't see how Amtrak could get away with refusing to haul their cars because they were 'taking business away from them'...


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Aug 11, 2016)

railiner said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> > Airlines could be severely disabled if another volcano such as Iceland, Indonesia, Philippines, or Mt St. Helens throws a lot of ash in the air. o
> ...


 how many seconds would the air filter last before it would be clogged with ash?


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## CCC1007 (Aug 11, 2016)

norfolkwesternhenry said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > west point said:
> ...


Depends a lot on density.


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## Rover (May 5, 2021)

A look back at what train travel was like in it's Golden Age through Santa Fe ads...






Santa Fe Railroad Super Chief Advertisements (Page 1) - Line.17QQ.com


This page is about Santa Fe Railroad Super Chief Advertisements,contains 9 best images about Native Americans in advertising. on,1952 Santa Fe Railroad Ad Super Chief Southwest Indian Country.,Advertising Santa Fe Streamliners,Marklin 26496 Santa Fe Super Chief Passenger Train Set and more...




line.17qq.com


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## railiner (May 5, 2021)

Love them, thanks for posting....

I recall Trains magazine once had a parody of the ad "She came in on the Super Chief", with the photographers moved over to shoot the observation car, instead of the starlet...

After clicking on the link, scroll down to the fourth ad. And imagine if the four photographer's were moved over to the right, ignoring the starlet.






Santa Fe Railroad Super Chief Advertisements (Page 2) - Line.17QQ.com


This page is about Santa Fe Railroad Super Chief Advertisements,contains 9 best images about Native Americans in advertising. on,1952 Santa Fe Railroad Ad Super Chief Southwest Indian Country.,Advertising Santa Fe Streamliners,Marklin 26496 Santa Fe Super Chief Passenger Train Set and more...




line.17qq.com


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## MARC Rider (May 5, 2021)

CCC1007 said:


> While business travelers would make a good demographic for Amtrak, trains simply are not in their equations, especially long distance trains.



Well, the Northeast Corridor and associated branches get their fair share of business travelers. They can compete with airlines for any trip that's under 4 hours. They can compete with cars even better, especially if they can get point-to-point average speeds of 60 mph at least.

There are some business travelers who use long-distance trains for overnight runs. I was one of them. But it's really a niche market, not one that political leaders will want to subsidize.


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## railiner (May 5, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, the Northeast Corridor and associated branches get their fair share of business travelers. They can compete with airlines for any trip that's under 4 hours. They can compete with cars even better, especially if they can get point-to-point average speeds of 60 mph at least.
> 
> There are some business travelers who use long-distance trains for overnight runs. I was one of them. But it's really a niche market, not one that political leaders will want to subsidize.


Agree...a _very_ small niche. And probably most of those, are railfans.


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## MARC Rider (May 5, 2021)

Carolina Special said:


> Airline and private jet travel being curtailed to combat global warming would certainly help passenger train traffic. Not likely to happen, however, as the ruling classes like their ability to fly around as desired.


That's no problem, they could reregulate the industry, limit the number of flights, and let the fares "fly" upwards. Part of this could be done with a carbon tax on flights, too. The ruling classes would still be able to afford to fly, but no more cheap fares for the masses.


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## west point (May 5, 2021)

The shorter the flight the more fuel consumption per mile on flights.


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## Bob Dylan (May 5, 2021)

Rover said:


> A look back at what train travel was like in it's Golden Age through Santa Fe ads...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As one lucky enough to have ridden the Super Chief( but didnt get to eat in the Turquoise Room) this certainly brings back good Memories!


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## railiner (May 5, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> As one lucky enough to have ridden the Super Chief( but didnt get to eat in the Turquoise Room) this certainly brings back good Memories!


When not reserved for private parties, the Turquoise Room was employed as 'overflow seating' for the adjacent diner. Super Chief diner's only had 36 seats (4&2) instead of the standard 48 seats.


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## Bob Dylan (May 5, 2021)

railiner said:


> When not reserved for private parties, the Turquoise Room was employed as 'overflow seating' for the adjacent diner. Super Chief diner's only had 36 seats (4&2) instead of the standard 48 seats.


Yep, but I couldn't afford to est in the Diner as kid! The $1.75 Meals were to expensive!


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## Charles785 (May 6, 2021)

Forgive me if this has already been asked and answered, but since the title of this discussion is "A New Super Chief" it's interesting to wonder if enough sleeper passengers who do ride the Southwest Chief for long distance purposes could potentially make it profitable for BNSF themselves to resurrect the Super Chief, complete with all the amenities of the original train including Fred Harvey-quality cuisine.

Would there be a market for that in 2021, and can some knowledgeable folks hazard an educated guess as to what the fares would need to be to make it worthwhile for BNSF?


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## railiner (May 6, 2021)

Charles785 said:


> Forgive me if this has already been asked and answered, but since the title of this discussion is "A New Super Chief" it's interesting to wonder if enough sleeper passengers who do ride the Southwest Chief for long distance purposes could potentially make it profitable for BNSF themselves to resurrect the Super Chief, complete with all the amenities of the original train including Fred Harvey-quality cuisine.
> 
> Would there be a market for that in 2021, and can some knowledgeable folks hazard an educated guess as to what the fares would need to be to make it worthwhile for BNSF?


BNSF, and the rest of the freight railroads have no desire to get back into the passenger business themselves, after having being relieved of that money losing responsibility with the creation of Amtrak, 50 years ago. 
There have been a few private attempts during that time to bring back luxury passenger trains, but all of them eventually failed. The notable exception is in Canada, where privately owned Rocky Mountaineer has been somewhat successful, albeit without operating overnight, or sleeping cars.


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## Rover (May 7, 2021)

railiner said:


> BNSF, and the rest of the freight railroads have no desire to get back into the passenger business themselves, after having being relieved of that money losing responsibility with the creation of Amtrak, 50 years ago.
> There have been a few private attempts during that time to bring back luxury passenger trains, but all of them eventually failed. The notable exception is in Canada, where privately owned Rocky Mountaineer has been somewhat successful, albeit without operating overnight, or sleeping cars.



The problem is, I think that most people with means, would rather fly 1st Class to their destination, and then stay at a 1st Class Hotel to be pampered and wined and dined, to then watch 1st Class travel films in their room on the big screen TV.


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## railiner (May 7, 2021)

Rover said:


> The problem is, I think that most people with means, would rather fly 1st Class to their destination, and then stay at a 1st Class Hotel to be pampered and wined and dined, and then watch 1st Class travel films on the big screen TV in their room.


Agreed! Or, sightsee across the land in their custom Prevost Marathon motor home. Or take a luxury Tauck tour, and see all the really scenic sights by daylight, and rest overnight in first class hotels.


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## jiml (May 7, 2021)

railiner said:


> The notable exception is in Canada, where privately owned Rocky Mountaineer has been somewhat successful, albeit without operating overnight, or sleeping cars.


And in one sentence you've captured why it is successful - not operating overnight so not needing sleeping cars. Removing those two elements and the few extra meals that overnight operation would necessitate (most evening dinners and some breakfasts), you reduce operating costs significantly. Once you factor in the prices they charge they should be successful. It just requires enough people to want to go.


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## Mailliw (May 7, 2021)

It's a fun idea, but baring massive government subsidies I don't see any private railroad getting back into the passenger transport. Even getting a private railroad to contract with an entity other than Amtrak for passenger service is next to impossible.


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## jis (May 7, 2021)

jiml said:


> And in one sentence you've captured why it is successful - not operating overnight so not needing sleeping cars. Removing those two elements and the few extra meals that overnight operation would necessitate (most evening dinners and some breakfasts), you reduce operating costs significantly. Once you factor in the prices they charge they should be successful. It just requires enough people to want to go.


Is the Rocky Mountaineer a "common carrier" in the common meaning of the phrase? Or is it a tourist operation. I have not looked at it deep enough to figure out an answer for sure. If the latter then it is quite irrelevant in a discussion of providers of "common carrier"-like transportation service, no?


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## jiml (May 7, 2021)

jis said:


> Is the Rocky Mountaineer a "common carrier" in the common meaning of the phrase? Or is it a tourist operation. I have not looked at it deep enough to figure out an answer for sure. If the latter then it is quite irrelevant in a discussion of providers of "common carrier"-like transportation service, no?


I wasn't the one who suggested it; simply responding to another post.


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## railiner (May 7, 2021)

jis said:


> Is the Rocky Mountaineer a "common carrier" in the common meaning of the phrase? Or is it a tourist operation. I have not looked at it deep enough to figure out an answer for sure. If the latter then it is quite irrelevant in a discussion of providers of "common carrier"-like transportation service, no?


Whether riding one way on a tourist train like the Rocky Mountaineer, or say, the Durango and Silverton from point A to point B, for a published fare, available to anyone, constitutes being a common carrier....I can't say. But if it isn't, it further makes my point that privately owned trains have not been successful.


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## MARC Rider (May 7, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> It's a fun idea, but baring massive government subsidies I don't see any private railroad getting back into the passenger transport. Even getting a private railroad to contract with an entity other than Amtrak for passenger service is next to impossible.


If they get government subsidies, they're not really a private railroad, in my opinion. It's the worst of both worlds. If private capital isn't interested in providing a needed service, then the government should run it themselves. After all, we have this organization called the U.S. Army that provides needed national defense, we don't send tax dollars to "Mercenaries-R-US." It didn't work that well for King George II and his Hessians, and it wouldn't work tooo well for us.


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## MARC Rider (May 7, 2021)

railiner said:


> There have been a few private attempts during that time to bring back luxury passenger trains, but all of them eventually failed. The notable exception is in Canada, where privately owned Rocky Mountaineer has been somewhat successful, albeit without operating overnight, or sleeping cars.



I believe I read here that Pullman Rail Journeys might have been successful if Amtrak had been more cooperative. Perhaps there might be a role for private operators to provide the experiential "first class" accommodations for Amtrak trains, giving Amtrak a cut of the gross, and relieving Amtrak of the need to explain to their Congressional paymasters why they're running first class service with taxpayer money. Amtrak should still probably run cafe cars and budget sleepers for the masses, and the deal should allow the regular passengers to use the dining cars, paying for meals, of course. These "experiential" cars don't have to be vintage private varnish, they could be new equipment that is reliable, up-to-date, and fully compatible with existing Amtrak trains.


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## Mailliw (May 7, 2021)

Which is more or less the same relationship Pullman used to have with the private railroads. Supposedly that was the model François Rebello was trying to pursue with his Montreal to NYC Train Hotel proposal.


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