# Shower bribes



## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

A SCA told me if I was ever riding coach and wanted a shower to ask a SCA if I could use their shower for $5.00????

RF


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## the_traveler (Jun 20, 2009)

Personally, I would not want to be the person responsible for that attendant losing his or her job over a $5 "bribe"!

It just may be that some passenger who is in the sleeper and paid $$$ to be in the sleeper would notify Customer Service that the attendant allowed a coach passenger to use the shower (which is not allowed)! Besides, you may not get thru the Dining Car carrying a change of clothes without being questioned and stopped!


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## MrEd (Jun 20, 2009)

maybe if you gave $5 to each employee on the way to the shower room it would work.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 20, 2009)

And you get the whole OBS crew fired. Even better.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 20, 2009)

MrEd said:


> maybe if you gave $5 to each employee on the way to the shower room it would work.


Maybe, if enough $5 bribes are required, it would be cheaper to book a room and get shower access honestly.


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## Chatter163 (Jun 20, 2009)

Moderator, please close this thread.


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## Upstate (Jun 20, 2009)

What if we call it a "tip" instead of a "bribe". They are allowed to accept tips so why not "tip" them to look the other way.

But, its not right no matter what you call it.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

Yeah, I see the point!  I need/want a shower every morning. The subject came up while I was talking to a SCA on the EB. I know I couldn't do the EB trip without a shower &, come to think of it, I couldn't sleep in Coach for 2 days either. This "Old Age" does alter your life style!!!!  :lol: But yeah, I wouldn't want to jepordize anyone's job!!!

RF


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## the_traveler (Jun 20, 2009)

Upstate said:


> What if we call it a "tip" instead of a "bribe". They are allowed to accept tips so why not "tip" them to look the other way.


I'm going to "tip" the Police who stops me from driving 100 MPH! I'm not going to offer a bribe, but just a tip to look the other way.  How much should I "tip"? :huh:

If you don't want to "bribe" or "tip", why not just spend the extra that you would have "tipped" to get the room in the first place? :huh:


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## Long Train Runnin' (Jun 20, 2009)

Write down the name of that SCA they shouldn't be taking people from coach and offering them a shower... I mean how does the SCA advertise that? Showers $5. He takes his line of coach paxs and just smiles at the LSA <_< <_< Not sure how it works but its wrong.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Upstate said:
> 
> 
> > What if we call it a "tip" instead of a "bribe". They are allowed to accept tips so why not "tip" them to look the other way.
> ...



I definitely would but, I've also encounterd "Sold Out" trains!

RF


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 20, 2009)

Rail Freak said:


> Yeah, I see the point!  I need/want a shower every morning. The subject came up while I was talking to a SCA on the EB. I know I couldn't do the EB trip without a shower &, come to think of it, I couldn't sleep in Coach for 2 days either. This "Old Age" does alter your life style!!!!  :lol: But yeah, I wouldn't want to jepordize anyone's job!!!RF



Somehow availability of showers on train has moved from being a "want" to being a "need".

Showers on the train are relatively recent. In the old days before Amtrak there were just a handful of trains on the whole country which had showers at all. And then it was usually just one room in one car in one train. It was only for the passenger(s) with space in that one room, usually called a master room. Two or three trains in the whole country had one shower in the lounge car, for sleeper passenger only.

Now:

consider how many more people proportionatley used to ride trains,

that trains used to not be air conditioned and the windows opened

that people used to dress up more.

How all that happened is hard to imagine but we obviously can go a few days without a shower, we have proven it time and again in years past.If you were in a sleeper you could strip down and apply wash cloth and soap to your self, that was called a "sponge bath". Some coach passengers may have gone into the restroom and done that,not sure.

I took several cross country three nghts out trips in coach when I was much younger and I do not remember it being too much of a problem. Keep in mind you do not aquire too much extra dirt once on board, so basically take a good bath before you board.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I see the point!  I need/want a shower every morning. The subject came up while I was talking to a SCA on the EB. I know I couldn't do the EB trip without a shower &, come to think of it, I couldn't sleep in Coach for 2 days either. This "Old Age" does alter your life style!!!!  :lol: But yeah, I wouldn't want to jepordize anyone's job!!!RF
> ...



Let me guess how many miles you had to walk to school?

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers! 

RF


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## Upstate (Jun 20, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Upstate said:
> 
> 
> > What if we call it a "tip" instead of a "bribe". They are allowed to accept tips so why not "tip" them to look the other way.
> ...


I would say quite a bit since giving cops money is illegal, but feel free to adjust based on the service you receive. Tipping a sleeper attendant on the other hand is not illegal or even against the rules.


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## the_traveler (Jun 20, 2009)

Upstate said:


> Tipping a sleeper attendant on the other hand is not illegal or even against the rules.


You're right - tipping a sleeper attendant is not against the rules. But asking the sleeper attendant to do something that is against the rules (allowing a coach passenger to use the shower) and accepting a bribe (or a "tip" as you call it) *IS* illegal and against the rules!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 20, 2009)

Railfreak, I wanted to reply directly to your post two posts up but somehow it will not let me .

Just wanted to say "we're cool" and to tell you a little story of my own. About the time I spent the day getting splashed on by whales and dolphins at Marineland of the Pacific in LA,(which does not exist there anymore).

I had checked out of my hotel that morning,no chance for a bath. So there I am stepping aboard the Super Chief, one of the 2 or 3 finest trains in the country, smelling like the Pacific Ocean.

I was very embarrased plus I ate in the diner upon departure.No chance even for a sponge bath.I thought the whole train was talking about me.

But that is the only time it seemed to be a problem. And how many people step aboard smelling like whales and dolphins?

taker care!!


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## MrFSS (Jun 20, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Railfreak, I wanted to reply directly to your post two posts up but somehow it will not let me .
> Just wanted to say "we're cool" and to tell you a little story of my own. About the time I spent the day getting splashed on by whales and dolphins at Marineland of the Pacific in LA,(which does not exist there anymore).
> 
> I had checked out of my hotel that morning,no chance for a bath. So there I am stepping aboard the Super Chief, one of the 2 or 3 finest trains in the country, smelling like the Pacific Ocean.
> ...


Bill - that story sounds a little fishy to me. :lol: :lol:


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Railfreak, I wanted to reply directly to your post two posts up but somehow it will not let me .
> Just wanted to say "we're cool" and to tell you a little story of my own. About the time I spent the day getting splashed on by whales and dolphins at Marineland of the Pacific in LA,(which does not exist there anymore).
> 
> I had checked out of my hotel that morning,no chance for a bath. So there I am stepping aboard the Super Chief, one of the 2 or 3 finest trains in the country, smelling like the Pacific Ocean.
> ...


Somehow I Understand, but then again, I was born in Rome, Ga.

:lol:   

RF


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## AlanB (Jun 20, 2009)

Rail Freak said:


> Somehow I Understand, but then again, I was born in Rome, Ga.:lol:
> 
> RF


Why would anyone want to rome around Georgia? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Meat Puppet (Jun 20, 2009)

$5 is kinda cheap. I used $20 tip a few times for showers when I couldnt get a sleeper. I also used $20 to guarantee that no one sits next to me on a long coach trip.


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## sky12065 (Jun 20, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Railfreak, I wanted to reply directly to your post two posts up but somehow it will not let me .
> Just wanted to say "we're cool" and to tell you a little story of my own. About the time I spent the day getting splashed on by whales and dolphins at Marineland of the Pacific in LA,(which does not exist there anymore).
> 
> I had checked out of my hotel that morning,no chance for a bath. So there I am stepping aboard the Super Chief, one of the 2 or 3 finest trains in the country, smelling like the Pacific Ocean.
> ...


So Flipper, tell me... did any of the other passengers toss you any squid or other suitable fish? :lol:


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > Somehow I Understand, but then again, I was born in Rome, Ga.:lol:
> ...



:lol: I have to admit, That was Funny  , but I still can't answer your question  !!!!!!!! I hear SAV is nice! 

RF


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## EB_OBS (Jun 20, 2009)

Definitely not a good idea for SCAs to be selling shower time to coach passengers. As stated, all it would take is one phone call to customer relations and the SCA would be up for discipline. It wouldn't likely end with the attendant actually losing their job, but it certainly could. You all were just talking about this same subject in another recent thread. It is theft of services and if the attendant took money for it, then they are just as culpable as the coach passenger, possibly even more so unless they remitted the money to AMTRAK, yeah right.


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## sky12065 (Jun 20, 2009)

ez223 said:


> Definitely not a good idea for SCAs to be selling shower time to coach passengers. As stated, all it would take is one phone call to customer relations and the SCA would be up for discipline. It wouldn't likely end with the attendant actually losing their job, but it certainly could. You all were just talking about this same subject in another recent thread. It is theft of services and if the attendant took money for it, then they are just as culpable as the coach passenger, possibly even more so unless they remitted the money to AMTRAK, yeah right.


I doubt it could be theft of services since the pax payed an Amtrak employee for it's use. (So no one misunderstands my statement, this is not to imply that it's ok to use the shower under this situation)


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 20, 2009)

Rail Freak said:


> A SCA told me if I was ever riding coach and wanted a shower to ask a SCA if I could use their shower for $5.00????


Would you tip the SCA in your coach car, or would you tip the SCA in the sleeper?

If you slipped your own coach SCA a $20, that will probably not get you passed the sleeper SCA and into the sleeper's shower.

If you wanted to slip the sleeper SCA a $20, how would you even get into the sleeper, where he is, to do that?


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 20, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> I doubt it could be theft of services since the pax payed an Amtrak employee for it's use.


But he didn't pay AMTRAK.


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > A SCA told me if I was ever riding coach and wanted a shower to ask a SCA if I could use their shower for $5.00????
> ...


The Lounge, the Diner & if I wanted to do it, on a smoke break stop where they are standing outside, next to their Sleeper Car!!!


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## Bill Haithcoat (Jun 20, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > Somehow I Understand, but then again, I was born in Rome, Ga.:lol:
> ...



But you are guilty,Alan :lol: :lol:


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## the_traveler (Jun 20, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Rail Freak said:
> ...


I bet Alan will Rome around New York too! (Maybe even Rome, NY!) :lol: :lol:


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## sky12065 (Jun 20, 2009)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> sky12065 said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt it could be theft of services since the pax payed an Amtrak employee for it's use.
> ...


Of course he didn't! This was a theoritical situation.

But then again, it this were not a theoritical situation he would have been paying Amtrak just as much as you would be paying Amtrak if you picked up tickets at the train station and handed your payment to the employee working the ticket counter.


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## the_traveler (Jun 20, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> > sky12065 said:
> ...


But the difference is that the employee working the ticket counter would submit the payment to Amtrak. By giving the SCA the "bribe", I'm almost certain that the money would go directly into his or her pocket - and it would never be reported to or given to Amtrak!

But maybe, the SCA would report to Amtrak that he/she allowed a coach passenger to use the shower for a $5 "tip" - and here it is!  (Just like I'm sure you report to the Police that you drove 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone!  )


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## sky12065 (Jun 20, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> sky12065 said:
> 
> 
> > Cho Cho Charlie said:
> ...


I knew all that, but what the employee does with the 5 bucks after he received it is irrevelent to my original comment which was strictly about if he could be charged with theft of services.

In other words if the "Amtrak employee" accepted the payment for taking a shower, there is no "theft of services" by the pax, only the employee acting inappropriately if Amtrak policy did not permit what he did."

Also, my last post was rebuting the notion that paying an Amtrak employee is not paying Amtrak." That's why the parallel to the ticket counter employee was used; to PAX's all Amtrak employees represent Amtrak in actions and behaviors. If from the PAX's perspective, paying an Amtrak Employee for the shower is not paying Amtrak, then paying an Amtrak Employee for your tickets is also not paying Amtrak. The latter better demonstrating the error of the thinkng.


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## RailFanLNK (Jun 20, 2009)

I like to shower on the train but can live without as well. In December I work 60+ hours a week. I leave the house at 7am and not return home til almost 10pm on some nights. I come home, eat a quick bit to eat, retire to bed and start the whole process again at 6:15am when the alarm goes off. Sometimes, its the same uniform neatly laid on the floor and put right back on. If my customers and employees arel lucky, a change of underwear is somewhere in that window of time. Just the way it is and never have had one complaint from anyone. Also have canoed the Boundary Waters of MN and Canada. Didn't shower for 5 days, didn't care! And all of this from someone whose girlfriend says that I'm "well dressed", just times when I simply don't care!


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## Rail Freak (Jun 20, 2009)

RailFanLNK said:


> I like to shower on the train but can live without as well. In December I work 60+ hours a week. I leave the house at 7am and not return home til almost 10pm on some nights. I come home, eat a quick bit to eat, retire to bed and start the whole process again at 6:15am when the alarm goes off. Sometimes, its the same uniform neatly laid on the floor and put right back on. If my customers and employees arel lucky, a change of underwear is somewhere in that window of time. Just the way it is and never have had one complaint from anyone. Also have canoed the Boundary Waters of MN and Canada. Didn't shower for 5 days, didn't care! And all of this from someone whose girlfriend says that I'm "well dressed", just times when I simply don't care!


Where's the girlfriend's stomping grounds?

Oh  ! That's it, I'm tired of bickering about my shower habits!!! :angry: I'm purchasing my own "Private Parlour Car" !!!  That will work out a little more than $5 per shower, I'm sure but, Oh Well!!

RF


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## sunchaser (Jun 20, 2009)

Rail Freak said:


> RailFanLNK said:
> 
> 
> > I like to shower on the train but can live without as well. In December I work 60+ hours a week. I leave the house at 7am and not return home til almost 10pm on some nights. I come home, eat a quick bit to eat, retire to bed and start the whole process again at 6:15am when the alarm goes off. Sometimes, its the same uniform neatly laid on the floor and put right back on. If my customers and employees arel lucky, a change of underwear is somewhere in that window of time. Just the way it is and never have had one complaint from anyone. Also have canoed the Boundary Waters of MN and Canada. Didn't shower for 5 days, didn't care! And all of this from someone whose girlfriend says that I'm "well dressed", just times when I simply don't care!
> ...


I'm sure someone will pay to ride in your parlour car with you! (As long as you have sleepers & a shower!!!)


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## Ryan (Jun 20, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> In other words if the "Amtrak employee" accepted the payment for taking a shower, there is no "theft of services" by the pax, only the employee acting inappropriately if Amtrak policy did not permit what he did."


Not quite, if Amtrak's policy is that showers are for sleepers and the pax took a shower w/o a sleeper ticket, that's theft of services, regardless of when or how money changed hands. The one permissible way to purchase a shower is to buy a ticket that entitles you to one.


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## henryj (Jun 20, 2009)

If I have paid the extra $$$$ to ride in a sleeper, I expect privacy and a clean shower and rest room at the very least. It's bad enough on some of these trains that they let the kids run wild through the train stealing soap out of the baths and flushing everything they can find down the toilets until the clog up. But having a parade of coach passenger coming through to use your shower is even worse. If I ever detect this going on I am reporting it to the train steward and writing Amtrak when I get home. I would hope the car attendent gets fired.

To answer another poster on here, showers on a train are pretty much an Amtrak invention. Even in the streamlined era, there was only one shower and only on the best trains, usually in the lounge car and only available for first class passengers. You had to contact the lounge car attendent or valet to schedule a shower and a substantial tip was expected.

We were 'poor' so we always rode coach and took food with us to eat on the train, rarely eating in the diner. In the morning you just washed your hands and face in the restroom and that was it. Long distance trains then were plentiful, faster and reliable. I don't recall ever spending more than two nights on a train to get to the fartherest corner of the US.

If you think coach is bad, have you ever ridden a LD Greyhound bus????? Seen the almost homeless taking sponge baths in the station restrooms??? Ugh. Give me a train any day.


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## sechs (Jun 21, 2009)

Upstate said:


> What if we call it a "tip" instead of a "bribe". They are allowed to accept tips so why not "tip" them to look the other way.


A bribe is promised or given in advance; a tip is awarded after the fact. If you were allowed to take a shower without a bribe, you wouldn't need to tip.


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## EB_OBS (Jun 21, 2009)

Tip - noun

- a small present of money given directly to someone for performing a service or menial task; gratuity

Bribe - noun

- money or any other valuable consideration given or promised with a view to corrupting the behavior of a person, esp. in that person's performance

It seems pretty clear to me. A tip is not a bribe and a bribe is not a tip.


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## Konrad (Jun 21, 2009)

ez223 said:


> Tip - noun- a small present of money given directly to someone for performing a service or menial task; gratuity
> 
> Bribe - noun
> 
> ...


Tell that to the people on this site who claim to tip the SCA in advance :lol: .


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## railiner (Jun 21, 2009)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Rail Freak said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I see the point!  I need/want a shower every morning. The subject came up while I was talking to a SCA on the EB. I know I couldn't do the EB trip without a shower &, come to think of it, I couldn't sleep in Coach for 2 days either. This "Old Age" does alter your life style!!!!  :lol: But yeah, I wouldn't want to jepordize anyone's job!!!RF
> ...


One thing that has changed over the years is the amenities offered in stations. Years ago most major stations had huge restrooms that had coin-operated shower rooms available. Nowadays, it is hard to find even a decent place to brush your teeth and or shave.

One time I rode in an old trans-dorm coach. I had just worked a full shift and then boarded train 6 in Denver for Chicago. Late at night, I went downstairs and found the crew shower open, so I used it for a quick shower. Sure better than the tiny showers in the Bedrooms!


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## the_traveler (Jun 21, 2009)

Rail Freak said:


> I'm purchasing my own "Private Parlour Car" !!!  That will work out a little more than $5 per shower, I'm sure but, Oh Well!!


I'll ride your Parlour Car - but I have _some_ morals and only bribe $3 for a shower! :lol: (And I pay with a $3 bill!  )


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## EB_OBS (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > Tip - noun- a small present of money given directly to someone for performing a service or menial task; gratuity
> ...


I do the same thing in certain circumstances. There's no easier way to ensure that a server isn't likely to forget about you, in a busy nightclub, than to tip him/her in advance. They'll be back frequently for more.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 21, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> In other words if the "Amtrak employee" accepted the payment for taking a shower, there is no "theft of services" by the pax, only the employee acting inappropriately if Amtrak policy did not permit what he did."


No, I think the Amtrak employee and the coach passenger would both be co-conspirators or accomplices in their illegal act, because they both knew what they were doing.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jun 21, 2009)

railiner said:


> One thing that has changed over the years is the amenities offered in stations. Years ago most major stations had huge restrooms that had coin-operated shower rooms available. Nowadays, it is hard to find even a decent place to brush your teeth and or shave.


Isn't the old shower area at the WAS station now a movie theater?


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## Ryan (Jun 21, 2009)

Konrad said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > Tip - noun- a small present of money given directly to someone for performing a service or menial task; gratuity
> ...


I don't see anything in that definition that says the tip has to be given after the fact. I'm pretty sure that tipping in advance isn't given with a "view to corrupting", so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but you're failing at it.


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## catblue (Jun 21, 2009)

This topic was discussed in great detail just a few days ago. Nervous

If you go read the post you will see most people feel this is stealing.

To say you did not steal because you paid the attendant does not change the fact that the attendant is stealing from Amtrak.


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## AKA (Jun 21, 2009)

Another life of its own thread. Why we all take a cold shower and let this go ?


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## catblue (Jun 21, 2009)

Agreed! Sorry for feeding the fire.


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## sechs (Jun 22, 2009)

ez223 said:


> I do the same thing in certain circumstances. There's no easier way to ensure that a server isn't likely to forget about you, in a busy nightclub, than to tip him/her in advance. They'll be back frequently for more.


You did not read and understand.

If you "tip" in advance, it's a bribe. A tip is always given afterwards.

If you think about it, if you "tip" before the expected work, there's no reason for the person to actually do it. Unless, of course, you're going to "bribe" him afterward for having done it....


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## Ryan (Jun 22, 2009)

sechs said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > I do the same thing in certain circumstances. There's no easier way to ensure that a server isn't likely to forget about you, in a busy nightclub, than to tip him/her in advance. They'll be back frequently for more.
> ...


Wrong. Read my post above for explanation.


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## Konrad (Jun 22, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> > ez223 said:
> ...


BAKSHEESH!

Pure and simple.


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## Ryan (Jun 22, 2009)

Sorry, proper use of the English language conflicts with that opinion.


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## the_traveler (Jun 22, 2009)

sechs said:


> You "tip" in advance, it's a bribe. A tip is always given afterwards.
> If you think about it, if you "tip" before the expected work, there's no reason for the person to actually do it. Unless, of course, you're going to "bribe" him afterward for having done it....


So what you're actually saying is that if you bring your 90 year old mother to the station and give the sleeper attendant when she boards the train $5 or $10 dollars to help her out during the trip, you're actually "bribing" him! Does your mother have to tip him at the end of the run too - or does she stiff him because she didn't "tip"? :huh:


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## sky12065 (Jun 22, 2009)

sechs said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > I do the same thing in certain circumstances. There's no easier way to ensure that a server isn't likely to forget about you, in a busy nightclub, than to tip him/her in advance. They'll be back frequently for more.
> ...


Sorry but I respectfully disagree that a "tip" in advance is a bribe! If you do not ask for or imply that you want something that is not permitted or is illegal, there is NO bribe!

An example of a bribe would be if I offered a hefty amount of money to the head of Amtrak to keep the Traveler off of the trains. That could also cause a revolution that would overthrow Amtrak not to mention the possibility of starting WWIII! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## the_traveler (Jun 22, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> An example of a bribe would be if I offered a hefty amount of money to the head of Amtrak to keep the Traveler off of the trains. That could also cause a revolution that would overthrow Amtrak not to mention the possibility of starting WWIII! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


No that wouldn't start WWIII! 

However, if they closed KIN and also removed all QT machines nationwide and I would have to start carrying extra bags just to carry my tickets  , *THAT* may start WWIII *AND* WWIV! :lol:


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## EB_OBS (Jun 22, 2009)

TIP (To Insure Promptness)

Tipping ahead of time, or frequently, isn't a bribe. When you bribe someone, you're expecting that someone to do something they shouldn't or to look the other way. Corrupting their behavior as in the definition.

If I give a server a $10 tip when I order my first drink I'm pretty sure they aren't going to then not come back because I already tipped them. No, they're going to check on me and make sure my drink isn't empty and I'm going to tip them well for it.

Now, if I give the security guard money to let me in somewhere I'm not supposed to be, that's a bribe.


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## the_traveler (Jun 22, 2009)

ez223 said:


> TIP (To Insure Promptness)
> Tipping ahead of time, or frequently, isn't a bribe.


I agree with ez223!

In fact when tipping was first introduced, you tipped at the beginning. (Thus the acronym TIP!) Only later, did tipping at the end become common. (How do you insure promptness for your meal/room/service after the completion anyway? :huh: )


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## MrFSS (Jun 22, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> How do you insure promptness for your meal/room/service after the completion anyway?


The server anticipates you will tip if the service is quick and good.


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## Neil_M (Jun 22, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> (How do you insure promptness for your meal/room/service after the completion anyway? :huh: )


But at least it gives you a chance to tip nothing if the service was rubbish, you are English, or you think people should just do the job they are paid for.........


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## jackal (Jun 22, 2009)

Neil_M said:


> you are English


Invalid. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. I thought "enlightened" Europeans were supposed to have cultural sensitivity and respect local customs. 



Neil_M said:


> or you think people should just do the job they are paid for.........


Invalid, too. Like it or not, they're _not_ paid for that. It has been mentioned many times that they are paid below minimum wage in most states on the expectation that tips will make up the difference (and like it or not, it's written into the law). And I maintain that for most people reward serves as a better motivator than some false sense of nobility, since I know from personal experience that salespeople will not sell if their commission structure is not set up to encourage them properly, even if the wages are high and the hiring process attempts to attract good people.



Neil_M said:


> if the service was rubbish


Valid, and no one here would disagree with you. Under your preferred system of no tips and "fair" wages, however, you have little recourse if the service is rubbish, since you have no tip to take away! You can't have it both ways...

I realize your previous post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, so I don't mean to be harsh on you--I simply want to point out a few things.


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## Neil_M (Jun 22, 2009)

jackal said:


> Both invalid. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. I thought "enlightened" Europeans were supposed to have cultural sensitivity and respect local customs.
> 
> I realize your previous post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, so I don't mean to be harsh on you--I simply want to point out a few things.


We only have cultural sensitivity and respect local customs if there is no money involved....

Thanks for your quick guide to tips and the like, I didn't expect anyone to run with the bait quite so far!


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## Konrad (Jun 22, 2009)

jackal said:


> Neil_M said:
> 
> 
> > you are English
> ...


Rubbish!

I am English (and Australian) and I tip so blanket statements like yours merely serve to offend.

This is an Amtrak forum and I was under the impression that Amtrak employees were not exactly on subsistence wages and they certainly do not have to rely on tips.

Incidentally, this thread has gone so far off the original theme as to be almost irrelevant. However, I would add that given the amount of discussion/ire the subject of tipping generates on this site it is little wonder that we foreigners are in a terminal state of confusion on the subject. In fact it has got so bad in my case that I now rent self catering accommodation when in the States so I can cook my own meals and avoid the whole issue entirely.

Tourism is a major industry nowadays - you don't need to have arcane customs scaring away potential visitors.

And tipping a surly taxi driver who has scared me out of my wits by driving down Central Park West at 75 mph defies all logic (but I did tip  ).


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## Ryan (Jun 22, 2009)

Konrad said:


> However, I would add that given the amount of discussion/ire the subject of tipping generates on this site it is little wonder that we foreigners are in a terminal state of confusion on the subject. In fact it has got so bad in my case that I now rent self catering accommodation when in the States so I can cook my own meals and avoid the whole issue entirely.


An interesting statement, since it's mainly the foreigners agitating things. Perhaps you wouldn't be so confused if you just went with the flow, rather than be such a stick in the mud about things.

And really, if it's so hard for you to add 15-20% onto a bill, you may as well just stay home. Nobody's forcing you to come here.


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## Konrad (Jun 22, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > However, I would add that given the amount of discussion/ire the subject of tipping generates on this site it is little wonder that we foreigners are in a terminal state of confusion on the subject. In fact it has got so bad in my case that I now rent self catering accommodation when in the States so I can cook my own meals and avoid the whole issue entirely.
> ...


Glad you don't work for the tourist authoities. The US really needs all the economic stimulus it can get at the moment. Several thousand Aussie dollars helps.

And I'll be in New York next March, spending  .


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 22, 2009)

Konrad said:


> HokieNav said:
> 
> 
> > Konrad said:
> ...


Why thank you for the favor... <_<


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## Konrad (Jun 22, 2009)

Actually the point I was trying to make is that if Americans can't agree on who, when and how much to tip what hope does an outsider have?

I come from a country where even the Prime Minister rides up front with the driver, getting in the back seat of a taxi seems 'snobbish' to most Australians. Maybe we're just a little more egalitarian and don't have a 'servant/master' relationship with our service industry. After all, over here the person serving you may be earning more money than you do!

And, as a result, restaurants tend to be rather expensive but don't involve any mathematics when paying the bill.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 22, 2009)

to solve the tipping problem just do what outback steak house does. just do the math for you and print the amount for each percentage based on the number off people and how much the meal cost.


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## sky12065 (Jun 22, 2009)

Konrad said:


> Actually the point I was trying to make is that if Americans can't agree on who, when and how much to tip what hope does an outsider have?


I don't find it suprising that Americans (or anyone else) can't agree on tipping. (cow tipping excluded) The reason I say this is because tipping is really a personal thing with no real right or wrong answers about the when and whys. If I were to tell you how you should tip, I would be wrong to do so. It would only be right for me to provide you suggestions to consider as some establishments do. In the end how you tip is strictly up to you and not others.

What sometimes grates me is how some restaurants mandate a gratutity for serving x or more people. I understand why they do it, but it's NOT a gratutity or tip and shouldn't be called so; it's just an additional charge for service and should be called what it really is... a service charge!


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## MrFSS (Jun 22, 2009)

amtrakwolverine said:


> to solve the tipping problem just do what outback steak house does. just do the math for you and print the amount for each percentage based on the number off people and how much the meal cost.


I have seen other restaurants do that, too. And, I catch them basing their suggestion on the total + tax and it should just be on the total, not including the tax. I don't want to tip for a tax I have to pay.


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## PRR 60 (Jun 22, 2009)

This has really gotten off topic, but why is the tip even based on the value of the meal at all? Does someone serving you the chicken breast work less hard than the person serving the steak? Does serving a $2 coke, and then a dozen free refills, take less effort than a serving single $6 beer? The tip based on cost has never made much sense to me.

I can go to an Applebees with my wife and get a pretty nice meal, including drinks, for $40. A 20% tip would be $8. I can also go to Seasons 52, get a really nice meal with wine, and drop $120. The 20% tip for that is $24. Did that waiter at Seasons 52 work three times as hard as the waitress at Applebees? I don't think so. It's a screwy system, but it's all we have. And, yes, I include the tax when I calculate the tip. If a hard working kid at a restaurant gets an extra dollar or two that way, that's OK with me.


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## Dan O (Jun 22, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> This has really gotten off topic, but why is the tip even based on the value of the meal at all? Does someone serving you the chicken breast work less hard than the person serving the steak? Does serving a $2 coke, and then a dozen free refills, take less effort than a serving single $6 beer? The tip based on cost has never made much sense to me.
> I can go to an Applebees with my wife and get a pretty nice meal, including drinks, for $40. A 20% tip would be $8. I can also go to Seasons 52, get a really nice meal with wine, and drop $120. The 20% tip for that is $24. Did that waiter at Seasons 52 work three times as hard as the waitress at Applebees? I don't think so. It's a screwy system, but it's all we have. And, yes, I include the tax when I calculate the tip. If a hard working kid at a restaurant gets an extra dollar or two that way, that's OK with me.


I don't know but maybe at the cheaper place the waiter/waitress can serve more tables. I had a brother in law who worked as a waiter at a fancy place and he only had one table at a time. Just a guess tho.

Dan


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## sky12065 (Jun 23, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> This has really gotten off topic, but why is the tip even based on the value of the meal at all? Does someone serving you the chicken breast work less hard than the person serving the steak? Does serving a $2 coke, and then a dozen free refills, take less effort than a serving single $6 beer? The tip based on cost has never made much sense to me.
> I can go to an Applebees with my wife and get a pretty nice meal, including drinks, for $40. A 20% tip would be $8. I can also go to Seasons 52, get a really nice meal with wine, and drop $120. The 20% tip for that is $24. Did that waiter at Seasons 52 work three times as hard as the waitress at Applebees? I don't think so. It's a screwy system, but it's all we have. And, yes, I include the tax when I calculate the tip. If a hard working kid at a restaurant gets an extra dollar or two that way, that's OK with me.


You raise a good question and because of that very reason I scale down my tips somewhat. But as I've said before, tipping is personal and based on what you feel the service is worth, not what others think!


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## jackal (Jun 23, 2009)

Dan O said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > This has really gotten off topic, but why is the tip even based on the value of the meal at all? Does someone serving you the chicken breast work less hard than the person serving the steak? Does serving a $2 coke, and then a dozen free refills, take less effort than a serving single $6 beer? The tip based on cost has never made much sense to me.
> ...


I think that's it. While I'm not sure I've ever been in a place where the waiter has only one table, there is definitely at least some correlation between the price bracket of the restaurant and the level of service provided. At Del Posto in New York (a Mario Batali restaurant that's quite fancy), our table of three dropped $330 on a two-hour (plus) extravaganza. In exchange for his $70 tip, the waiter (and indeed the whole crew of servers--every time a new course arrived, there were two servers delivering the plates and two bussers to whisk away our used ones all in a swift, coreographed move) provided us with probably the best service I had ever experienced. He and the maitre d' kept a watchful eye over our table from the middle of the restaurant, and if one of us were to so much as look up, he'd arrive at our table to assist us instantly. He always arrived exactly when we were ready for him, and not a moment after or before. It was almost like he was reading our minds. He was worth every penny of that tip.

I think he actually had responsibility for two tables (_maybe_ three, tops), and assuming two table turnovers per night, he was probably earning tips off of four (maybe six, tops) tables. Contrast that with a higher-volume place like Chili's, where a server might have responsibility for six to ten tables (or more, I have no idea) that turn over in an hour or less. Over the course of a shift, you might have 20 separate tickets. At an average of $6 per ticket (3 $10 meals plus drinks and a 15% tip), she'd earn $120 in tips, which, after a cut goes to the bussers, hostess, and possibly chef, isn't all that much. Yet her service consists of a drink order, a dinner order, bringing the dinner (and at Chili's, it's someone else who brings the food out), and one or _maybe_ two checks throughout the meal to make sure everything's all right. The level of service just isn't the same to Del Posto. Yes, she works hard, but it's kind of like the argument that janitors work hard and should be paid better. It takes someone of great skill and professionalism to deliver the service we received at Del Posto. They should be rewarded for their skill. It doesn't take much beyond a good work ethic to pass as a server at a casual dining chain restaurant (not demeaning those who have worked in that industry--I'm just making a comparison here). Therefore, while not a perfect system, the fact that the tip reflects the price of the food at the restaurant serves as a functional guide to the tip the server should earn if he's doing his job.


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## Konrad (Jun 23, 2009)

> I think that's it. While I'm not sure I've ever been in a place where the waiter has only one table, there is definitely at least some correlation between the price bracket of the restaurant and the level of service provided. At Del Posto in New York (a Mario Batali restaurant that's quite fancy), our table of three dropped $330 on a two-hour (plus) extravaganza. In exchange for his $70 tip, the waiter (and indeed the whole crew of servers--every time a new course arrived, there were two servers delivering the plates and two bussers to whisk away our used ones all in a swift, coreographed move) provided us with probably the best service I had ever experienced. He and the maitre d' kept a watchful eye over our table from the middle of the restaurant, and if one of us were to so much as look up, he'd arrive at our table to assist us instantly. He always arrived exactly when we were ready for him, and not a moment after or before. It was almost like he was reading our minds. He was worth every penny of that tip.
> I think he actually had responsibility for two tables (_maybe_ three, tops), and assuming two table turnovers per night, he was probably earning tips off of four (maybe six, tops) tables. Contrast that with a higher-volume place like Chili's, where a server might have responsibility for six to ten tables (or more, I have no idea) that turn over in an hour or less. Over the course of a shift, you might have 20 separate tickets. At an average of $6 per ticket (3 $10 meals plus drinks and a 15% tip), she'd earn $120 in tips, which, after a cut goes to the bussers, hostess, and possibly chef, isn't all that much. Yet her service consists of a drink order, a dinner order, bringing the dinner (and at Chili's, it's someone else who brings the food out), and one or _maybe_ two checks throughout the meal to make sure everything's all right. The level of service just isn't the same to Del Posto. Yes, she works hard, but it's kind of like the argument that janitors work hard and should be paid better. It takes someone of great skill and professionalism to deliver the service we received at Del Posto. They should be rewarded for their skill. It doesn't take much beyond a good work ethic to pass as a server at a casual dining chain restaurant (not demeaning those who have worked in that industry--I'm just making a comparison here). Therefore, while not a perfect system, the fact that the tip reflects the price of the food at the restaurant serves as a functional guide to the tip the server should earn if he's doing his job.


But surely, if the staff are that well trained and professional their wages should be commensurate with their skill levels. Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

No good restaurant would/should hire high school students as service personnel - they start at McDonald's and work their way up. And you can't tell me that waiters at a fine dining establishment get paid the same as staff at a diner - or do they?

Certainly tip for service above expectations, but one's expectations are already raised when one goes to a better restaurant.


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## Tony (Jun 23, 2009)

Konrad said:


> And you can't tell me that waiters at a fine dining establishment get paid the same as staff at a diner - or do they?


My sister does. <_<

Though, at a diner, waitstaff gets 15% of a $20 table check. At the "fine dining establishment", waitstaff gets 15% of a $100 or even $200 table check. And it is for about the same amont of work.


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## AKA (Jun 23, 2009)

Here is a tip we can all take. Dont bet the horses. :huh:


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## TimePeace (Jun 23, 2009)

Wow what a weird thread.

But the original post begs the question: Why can't there be a couple of showers in the coach cars? Folks only going a few hours wouldn't bother, and those on long haul trips (who can't afford the RIDICULOUS price of roomettes) could not only feel better about themselves but also avoid offending other passengers with rank body odor. I had to laugh at the poster who said he could go three days in coach with no shower. Ha. I don't want to sit next to him!

Does not being able to afford up to $300 a night for 3 mediocre meals and a horizontal phone booth automatically reduce one to being a member of the "unwashed"?

Sorry if this has been asked already. I couldn't be bothered to read the thread after it got so silly.

David


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## amtrakwolverine (Jun 23, 2009)

maybe have a shower car for coach pax. you will have to pay to use it so the car makes money or congress will say why you hauling a car that makes no revenue.


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## RTOlson (Jun 23, 2009)

If we're not careful, Congress may start asking why the bathrooms aren't generating revenue (although they are generating something).


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## the_traveler (Jun 23, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> If we're not careful, Congress may start asking why the bathrooms aren't generating revenue (although they are generating something).


Well, you do make "deposits"! :lol: :lol:


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## DowneasterPassenger (Jun 23, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> RTOlson said:
> 
> 
> > If we're not careful, Congress may start asking why the bathrooms aren't generating revenue (although they are generating something).
> ...


The whole economy is in the toilet! Sorry, couldn't resist that one.


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## sechs (Jun 24, 2009)

HokieNav said:


> Wrong. Read my post above for explanation.


Wrong. Read my previous post for explanation.


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## railiner (Jun 24, 2009)

I've heard that budget airline Ryanair is actually planning on charging to use toilets on board. At first when it was mentioned, people thought it was just a joke to show how austere air service was getting in the current climate, but now it looks like they are serious about it.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Jun 24, 2009)

railiner said:


> I've heard that budget airline Ryanair is actually planning on charging to use toilets on board. At first when it was mentioned, people thought it was just a joke to show how austere air service was getting in the current climate, but now it looks like they are serious about it.


It is true, however, RyanAir has done publicity stunts before where they get in the news for doing something silly like this, only to recant later. "There is no such thing as bad publicity..."

However, it may be true this time..


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## railiner (Jun 24, 2009)

Don't publicists call this tactic a "trial balloon" that they leak out just to see how extreme public reaction might be before they make the final decision to implement the subject?


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## Ryan (Jun 24, 2009)

sechs said:


> HokieNav said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong. Read my post above for explanation.
> ...


I presume that you're talking about this post:



sechs said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > I do the same thing in certain circumstances. There's no easier way to ensure that a server isn't likely to forget about you, in a busy nightclub, than to tip him/her in advance. They'll be back frequently for more.
> ...


You'll have to excuse me for saying you're still wrong, as your post neither addresses that there is absolutely no time element in the definition of tip and the definition of bribe includes the fact that a bribe is given with an eye towards encouraging the receiver to do something wrong. Unless you somehow think that getting proper service is wrong, you've done nothing to address my post. I suggest you try again with less snark and more content.


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## GG-1 (Jun 24, 2009)

RTOlson said:


> If we're not careful, Congress may start asking why the bathrooms aren't generating revenue (although they are generating something).


Oh No, please don't give them ideas, "mobil sewer fee's" What will be taxed next? :lol:  :unsure: :lol:  :lol:  :lol: :blink: :lol:


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## PetalumaLoco (Jun 24, 2009)

GG-1 said:


> RTOlson said:
> 
> 
> > If we're not careful, Congress may start asking why the bathrooms aren't generating revenue (although they are generating something).
> ...


They'd have to figure out how to _track_ the _output_...

or if they want to link it to diner costs, I guess they'd need to know about the _throughput_.


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## the_traveler (Jun 24, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > RTOlson said:
> ...


Wouldn't that be a _wash_ - or should I have said a _flush_! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## JayPea (Jun 24, 2009)

What a load of crap that would be if they ever decided to put a tax on that! :lol:


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## sky12065 (Jun 24, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> They'd have to figure out how to _track_ the _output_...


Didn't you mean input? Maybe a flush count with a charge of $??.?? per flush... WHOOPS, did I present TMI! Yikes, don't blame me if they do it. The final decision would not be mine! :lol:


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 24, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > RTOlson said:
> ...


  Politicians speciallty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## the_traveler (Jun 24, 2009)

Could that be what they mean by "... watching the *BOTTOM* line?" :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## sky12065 (Jun 24, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Could that be what they mean by "... watching the *BOTTOM* line?" :lol: :lol: :lol:


When they're not busy watching BOTTOMS!


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