# Amtrak confirms new sleepers, baggages, diners will be Viewliners



## Rafi (Mar 7, 2009)

I posted this in the new train service for Virginians thread, but since not everyone may be keeping up with that one, I figured I should make sure this got noticed...

I attended the annual Virginia Association of Railway Patrons (VARP) meeting today and one of the speakers was Jay McArthur, Principal Officer for Strategic Partnerships & Business Development. In the context of other topics, he mentioned and, at my direct, point by point re-confirmation, confirmed the following:

Amtrak has decided to refresh their fleet of SLEEPER, DINER, and BAGGAGE CARS with Viewliner shells. They are in the process of working up new schematics. No word on if the Sleepers will remain the same or if we'll end up seeing maybe a combined Sleeper/Baggage, or new Sleeper config, etc. Viewliners MAY become the shell for new single level coaches as well, but it has not been decided yet.

All Heritage equipment should be completely phased out once the new Viewliner order is filled. As new coach cars come online, Amfleets will begin to replace Horizon rolling stock.

Amtrak is also preparing a "recommended" corridor car for states who are looking to implement corridor service. The reason is that Amtrak has found that most states don't know where to start when it comes to identifying appropriate rolling stock for new corridor services, so Amtrak has taken the Surfliner configuration and standardized it as the model that is presented to states who need a starting point when deciding what to order. Of course the cars aren't of much use in the Northeast, so it's only being presented to states who wouldn't be dealing with those clearance issues.

-Rafi


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 7, 2009)

Viewliners? Sounds like they're going to spend all this money on the northeast corridor. :angry:


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 7, 2009)

this is good news. amtrak needs new rolling stock like yesterday.


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## WhoozOn1st (Mar 7, 2009)

Thanks, Rafi. Did you happen to get any kinda ballpark timeframe for when the new stuff might start coming online?

EDIT: And has a builder been identified?


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Mar 7, 2009)

And I just got off of the Crescent at 6:45 in New Orleans, yes it was a full 45 minutes early, and the diner I ate in was awfully rough riding. It was almost impossible to eat due to the motion, although the OBS Chief came by an apologized for the rough ride and said running these antiques at 80mph through the swamp during dinner is a little ridiculous. Since I was a sleeper pax in room B on veiwliner 1910 I could easily compare the difference. I will be very grateful when they retire the old rust buckets they call diners and replace them with Viewliners.

Can anybody confirm that the new viewliners will have one large window similar to the same size as the current small ones put together? Looking out of the Viewliner backing in next to Superliners, the windows on the Superliners seemed to be as tall as both on the Viewliners put together.

I'm leaving to head back to Tuscaloosa tomorrow in roomette 001 in car 2010, yes I took the train for the train, not to actually go anywhere, and yes I upgraded to sleeper for no real reason. I also lucked out coming down in that the bedroom was actually $30 cheaper than the roomette, go figure!


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Mar 7, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Viewliners? Sounds like they're going to spend all this money on the northeast corridor. :angry:


Not hardly, NOL, CHI and Florida are not the NEC, with the sorry state of the Heritage cars, which we all know or in their 60s and 70s, I say this is a very wise investment. For years the LD trains have been neglected, except maybe the CS and EB, so investing in them is a sign that Amtrak is actually thinking about them and not just letting them wither away.


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## Acela150 (Mar 7, 2009)

Is it me or have I told people this over and over?

Stephen


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## Rafi (Mar 7, 2009)

WhoozOn1st said:


> Thanks, Rafi. Did you happen to get any kinda ballpark timeframe for when the new stuff might start coming online?
> EDIT: And has a builder been identified?


My impression from the context of his talk was that it would be at least two years for any new equipment once it's been ordered (although I strongly suspect some guys on this forum may be able to speak more authoritatively on this topic than I), and that may float later depending on when they figure out who's building them . Which brings me to your followup question. That was on my list to ask him, but I was far and away asking more questions than anyone else in the room, and after about 30-45 minutes of Q&A, they had to turn down more questions, including that last one I had about a builder.

Rafi


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## OlympianHiawatha (Mar 7, 2009)

No dedicated Viewliner Lounges? With those double windows, that would make for a perfect Lounge, something I hate to see merged in with a Diner. Lounges are for lounging and Diners are for eating! Think of the Eastern version of the Sightseer.


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 7, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > Viewliners? Sounds like they're going to spend all this money on the northeast corridor. :angry:
> ...


I don't understand, so they're going to mix Viewliners and Superliners on the same routes? Or are the doing away with Superliners on the CNO and other Superliner routes?


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## transit54 (Mar 7, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > PetalumaLoco said:
> ...


I think he was referring to the Crescent, not the CONO. I don't think anything is going to happen to the Superliners, though I could be wrong.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 7, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> ...


maybe order superliner 3's


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 7, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> ...


Ok, the Crescent, and I suppose the LSL too.


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## RailFanLNK (Mar 7, 2009)

Ok...I'm getting jealous here.... :angry: So the stimulus money is going only toward building Viewliner equipment? Will there be money to "fix" the Superliner equipment? I have been on the CZ and been told, "if we could get more equipment, we would have a 3rd sleeper all the time" instead of just the summer months from CHI-DEN. And when they do put on the 3rd sleeper in the summer months, where do they pull that sleeper from?


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## Rafi (Mar 7, 2009)

Let's not assume the stimulus money is ONLY going to get the rolling stock we learned about today. The meeting was for Virginia services, so that's why we talked about single level rolling stock. Who knows what the plans are for double deckers. But to be fair, keep in mind that the single level diners and baggage cars (which I bet are older than a good portion of the people on this board) are literally dropping out of service faster than anyone is comfortable with. Something simply has to be done. I have to assume it's the #1 rolling stock priority for Amtrak as of today.

But just to clarify for PetalumaLoco, the sleepers and diners will affect the LSL, Crescent, Cardinal, Silver Meteor, and Silver Star at a minimum. The added availability of rolling stock also obviously makes other opportunities, like a resurrected Twilight Shoreliner, and a daily cardinal a possibility. The new baggage cars, however, will affect almost all mid to LD routes, including superliner trains.

Rafi


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 7, 2009)

Rafi said:


> Let's not assume the stimulus money is ONLY going to get the rolling stock we learned about today. The meeting was for Virginia services, so that's why we talked about single level rolling stock. Who knows what the plans are for double deckers. But to be fair, keep in mind that the single level diners and baggage cars (which I bet are older than a good portion of the people on this board) are literally dropping out of service faster than anyone is comfortable with. Something simply has to be done. I have to assume it's the #1 rolling stock priority for Amtrak as of today.
> But just to clarify for PetalumaLoco, the sleepers and diners will affect the LSL, Crescent, Cardinal, Silver Meteor, and Silver Star at a minimum. The added availability of rolling stock also obviously makes other opportunities, like a resurrected Twilight Shoreliner, and a daily cardinal a possibility. The new baggage cars, however, will affect almost all mid to LD routes, including superliner trains.
> 
> Rafi


Rafi

Sorry to be a little too quick on the trigger, what you say makes perfect sense.


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## MattW (Mar 7, 2009)

I've heard some talk about baggage dorms. Will this order include Viewliner Baggage dorms? Or just sleeprs, and maybe baggage?

[EDIT]Re-read original topic, we're not sure yet. Shouldn't post when I'm tired


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## guestlsa (Mar 7, 2009)

well as LD on 19 this is good news . We told that suppose to be updating the diners . I cant wait they start putting the baggage on some these trains that really bad!



Rafi said:


> Let's not assume the stimulus money is ONLY going to get the rolling stock we learned about today. The meeting was for Virginia services, so that's why we talked about single level rolling stock. Who knows what the plans are for double deckers. But to be fair, keep in mind that the single level diners and baggage cars (which I bet are older than a good portion of the people on this board) are literally dropping out of service faster than anyone is comfortable with. Something simply has to be done. I have to assume it's the #1 rolling stock priority for Amtrak as of today.
> But just to clarify for PetalumaLoco, the sleepers and diners will affect the LSL, Crescent, Cardinal, Silver Meteor, and Silver Star at a minimum. The added availability of rolling stock also obviously makes other opportunities, like a resurrected Twilight Shoreliner, and a daily cardinal a possibility. The new baggage cars, however, will affect almost all mid to LD routes, including superliner trains.
> 
> Rafi


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## jackal (Mar 8, 2009)

Great announcement!



Rafi said:


> All Heritage equipment should be completely phased out once the new Viewliner order is filled. As new coach cars come online, Amfleets will begin to replace Horizon rolling stock.


This is the only thing that concerns me. Yes, we have a need to update the equipment, but we also have a tremendous need for new equipment. If Horizon rolling stock is still in usable condition, why not continue to use it and use the equipment to add needed services rather than just mothball them?

Amtrak is consistently short equipment, and this is a perfect opportunity to expand services!

Or am I missing something here?


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2009)

jackal said:


> Great announcement!
> 
> 
> Rafi said:
> ...


Well first off it remains to be seen if the Viewliner shell will even be used as the platform for new coaches, so we're getting way ahead of ourselves here with this question. But if that were to happen, then it comes down to mathmatics. If enough new coaches are ordered, then there is no need for the Horizons. If they don't order enough, then the Horizons may well stay in service.


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2009)

Again let me stress that nothing is official yet, even Rafi's news isn't a done deal. Amtrak is heading that one, but no contract has been singed and no monies have actually been paid for anything.

But that said, all indications that I've seen are for 75 new baggage cars that will double as both a baggage car and a crew dorm. This will allow the existing Superliner Trans/Dorms to become full passenger sleepers. No word if they will receive family rooms or bedrooms, or just retain the current configurations. But it will open up more sleeper compartments regardless.

Amtrak hopes to order 25 Viewliner sleepers, to beef up the fleet in the east. That most likely will lead to retoration of the overnight sleeper between Boston and DC, perhaps a daily Cardinal, a third sleeper for the Crescent and the Star, as well as a few more spares.

And of course they are looking for new dining cars to replace all the single level Heritage dining cars, as well as to restore a dining car on the LSL. No idea on whether the Card might see a real diner or not.

Right now the single level fleet is the top priority for Amtrak overall, as the current baggage cars are failing (and that does affect the bi-level trains too), the Heritage dining cars are in dire need of replacement, and the current Viewliner sleeper fleet is stretched beyond its limits.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Mar 8, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> And I just got off of the Crescent at 6:45 in New Orleans, yes it was a full 45 minutes early, and the diner I ate in was awfully rough riding. It was almost impossible to eat due to the motion, although the OBS Chief came by an apologized for the rough ride and said running these antiques at 80mph through the swamp during dinner is a little ridiculous. Since I was a sleeper pax in room B on veiwliner 1910 I could easily compare the difference. I will be very grateful when they retire the old rust buckets they call diners and replace them with Viewliners.



I am sure this is merely a matter of opinion. And I am curious to what many of the others have to say about this one (especially the other experienced railroaders on here). But for the several years of my employment at Amtrak, I must disagree with you with the difference in the "ride quality" between the Viewliner sleepers and the Heritage diners and sleepers. The Heritage equipment is heavier than the current Viewliner equipment by a long shot. And I am sure there are some issues with how the Heritage equipment has been maintained in these last few years and the fact they are nearing the end of their useful life. But I must say I would rather retire for the night to one of the roomettes in one of the old Heritage crew dorms (old converted 10-6 sleepers which have been retired now) than to a delux bedroom on a Viewliner anytime! And I still would rather ride in a Heritage diner than in one of the Amfleet or Viewliner, too (which is one reason why I liked working the dining most of the time).

I seriously hope the new Viewliners (assuming they come to fruition-I'll believe it when I see it) will be a bit heavier and constructed in a more solid quality than the current fleet is. The Viewliner sleepers still ride better than the Amfleets, but the Budd built Amfleets (most in the 30yo age range) have held up so much better than the Veiwliner fleet (which made their debut in the 1990s) have.

OBS gone freight...

spelling stinks tonight....


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## sechs (Mar 8, 2009)

Rafi said:


> Amtrak has taken the Surfliner configuration and standardized it as the model that is presented to states who need a starting point when deciding what to order.


Did he really say Surfliners? I'd expect that they'd start from the newer and slightly more generic California Cars.


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## wayman (Mar 8, 2009)

AlanB said:


> And of course they are looking for new dining cars to replace all the single level Heritage dining cars, as well as to restore a dining car on the LSL. No idea on whether the Card might see a real diner or not.


... and then we can hope they'll take the diner-lites and start using them on the Adirondack and Vermonter as an upgrade from their cafe cars, and use the freed-up cafe cars for the new Regional trainsets Virginia will soon purchase.... For the cost of the six or seven diners to cover the Card and LSL, they'll get to upgrade the dining services of about twelve trainsets. Not bad


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 8, 2009)

how about with the new dining cars they bring back REAL dining service like better service and food.


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## printman2000 (Mar 8, 2009)

This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!


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## Walt (Mar 8, 2009)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Can anybody confirm that the new viewliners will have one large window similar to the same size as the current small ones put together? Looking out of the Viewliner backing in next to Superliners, the windows on the Superliners seemed to be as tall as both on the Viewliners put together.


Possibly, I am just misunderstanding your comment. I don't think that, for example, the Superliner's one roomette window is bigger than the two Viewliner roomette windows put together. I mean, the Superliner's upper bunk doesn't have any "window" whereas the Viewliner's upper bunk has it own, full, window.


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## had8ley (Mar 8, 2009)

printman2000 said:


> This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!


You think today's trains are hodgepodge?~ you should have seen the consists when Amtrak took over. The home roads consists stayed about the same until the summer of Amtrak's birth. Then we got the "circus trains." Black PC E-8's, UP armor yellow; BN green, MOP blue and every other participating road's color scheme which was all Class 1's save for about three. And that was just the engines. What followed behind in revenue service you would need a 64 pack of crayola crayons to draw a picture of. It took Amtrak a while to catch up in painting and it was not unusual to see just an Amtrak decal with a new car/engine number and the old home road name painted over. The best part of the transition was the fact that Amtrak kept many of the OBS crews and contracted with the home roads for train crews.


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## printman2000 (Mar 8, 2009)

had8ley said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!
> ...


Those were the days! At least all the cars were pretty much the same shape! The Amfleets tube look is what I dislike so much, which is what I was referring to.


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## wayman (Mar 8, 2009)

had8ley said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > This news makes me think of the discussion of what we thought of the Amfleets. With baggage and dining cars that are shaped like Viewliners, we will be two steps closer to uniform looking trains again. If we can get coaches based on that same shape, then no more (or maybe just less) hodgepodge looking single level trains!
> ...


For instance,







This page has lots of great photos of Amtrak 1971-1975.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2009)

OK, I was at the ESPA/NARP New York meeting in Schenectady yesterday. Joe Boardman was supposed to come to it, but canceled at the last moment because he is preoccupied with his staff this weekend preparing final proposals on how the Stimulus money is going to be used by Amtrak. He sent the Amtrak Albany District Superindendant to present the slides that he was going to use in his talk. Here is what I could scribble down quickly from the slides and from Q&A that followed:

Since this thread is focused on equipment I will focus on that here, and post a separate thread on New York state specific stuff.

There was a slide in the presentation which gave the following numbers for things that will be ordered in the near future:


Equipment to be ordered

60 Electric Locomotives for $540 million

25 Dining Cars for $87.5 million

25 Sleepers for $87.5 million

75 Baggage Cars for $150 million

130 Corridor Bilevels Cars for $500 million


In the Q&A we learned the following:

1. The Viewliner Sleepers will be very close to the current design, mostly just removing known problems. This in the interest of not delaying the order that would be inevitable if significant redesign was done. The Sleeper situation is only slightly less desperate than the Diner situation given how much potential ridership is currently being turned away
 
2. The Dining cars will use Viewliner shells
 
3. The Bilevel Corridor Cars are Superliner/Surfliner-like cars for use in Midwestern Corridors. Their induction will release the cars that are currently being used there - both LD Superliners and Amfleet/Horizon for use elsewhere. Also they will alleviate winter issues with the single level cars around Chicago. Also these cars will be usable in LD trains for short distance passengers.
 
4. The Baggage Cars appear to be really baggage cars. Couldn't quite get a straight answer on whether they will be Baggage-Dorm cars, but my presumption now is that they are not.
 
5. The earliest that we will see any of the new cars is at least 2 years out.
 
6. The first and immediate thing to do with stimulus money is to get all stored and serviceable equipment out back on the rails into revenue service ASAP. This applies to both single and bi-level equipment. Could not get any specific numbers from them though. Too bad Boardman could not make it, since I think he might have had more specifics.
 
7. Couldn't get any specifics on the Electric Engines. The money allocated seems a little low for that number given what folks in the real world are paying for such things. For example NJT is paying considerably more per-unit for the ALP-46A which perfectly matches Amtrak's operational requirements on the NEC. You can see the spec sheet
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/ALP-46A_10289_LOC_Sept08_en.pdfhere
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/ALP-46A_10289_LOC_Sept08_en.pdf.
 
8. Someone asked about whether Amtrak is looking into using dual-mode catenary/diesel units that NJT and AMT have ordered together with additional cab cars as a solution to the Springfield corridor and Richmond service. There was no comment in response. You can see the spec sheet of this interesting locomotive
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/DualPower_10290_LOC_Sept08_en.pdfhere
http://www.br146.de/revisionen_daten/DualPower_10290_LOC_Sept08_en.pdf.
 
9. And yes, Amtrak is specing out a standard Coach for use across the board by transit agencies. Again did not have time to get answer to my question about whether they were looking at two standard designs one for full height bi-level and the other for short-height-multi-level/single-level for east coast areas.
In addition to these a lot of time was spent on service quality improvement issues including new statutory requirements that have been placed on the STB, freight railroads and Amtrak on the issue of passenger train delay reduction in PRIIA. Apparently the act has put in some very significant legal teeth to make things happen. Things like STB is now almost required to take punitive action against a host railroad that is unable to operate an Amtrak train at 80% or better OTP for two consecutive quarters absent any force majeur or a previously negotiated variance from STB.

Two things that caught my attention in the vision portion of the presentation were:

1. Debt Restructuring - This apparently is a big issue with Boardman, which is refreshing to see.
 
2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations. There was a short discussion about what is being done in this area in other countries. From my perspective India was mentioned where fully electrified freight corridors are being built with catenary height of 24+ feet. It can be done. It is being done elsewhere. No reason it can't be done here
But I digress. The rest in a separate writeup under a different thread.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Mar 8, 2009)

jis said:


> 2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations. There was a short discussion about what is being done in this area in other countries. From my perspective India was mentioned where fully electrified freight corridors are being built with catenary height of 24+ feet. It can be done. It is being done elsewhere. No reason it can't be done here


Was anything said about how quickly this could be done to address the Springfield and Virginia issues without needing diesel prime movers in the electric locomotives?


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## printman2000 (Mar 8, 2009)

$2 million for a simple baggage car seems a lot. Of course, I have no idea how much railcars cost, but it does not seem to me a baggage car would cost that much when a full sleeper is $3.5 million.


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## wayman (Mar 8, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations. There was a short discussion about what is being done in this area in other countries. From my perspective India was mentioned where fully electrified freight corridors are being built with catenary height of 24+ feet. It can be done. It is being done elsewhere. No reason it can't be done here
> ...


The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.


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## wayman (Mar 8, 2009)

printman2000 said:


> $2 million for a simple baggage car seems a lot. Of course, I have no idea how much railcars cost, but it does not seem to me a baggage car would cost that much when a full sleeper is $3.5 million.


I imagine most of the cost is the frame, body, trucks, brakes, and HEP couplings, which are the same regardless of car type. Window glass and seats and interior walls and carpets can't be more than half the cost of a sleeper, and given the numbers above, they're apparently slightly less than half the cost of the sleeper, which is about what I'd expect.

EDIT: whoops, forgot about the _working_ coffee pots (since they said they'd be fixing known design issues with the Viewliner sleepers). That must account for at least a few hundred thousand of the cost per sleeper


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## Rafi (Mar 8, 2009)

FWIW, our Amtrak rep at the VARP meeting did say that Richmond-DC electrification is now starting to get a more serious look and will probably be the first leg of the southeast high speed rail initiative (which traverses the S line through NC then heads down to Charlotte and Atlanta). He didn't go into much more detail than that, but the mention was made when someone asked the progress of high speed rail initiatives in the state. That said, my impression is that CSX traffic constraints and getting the service up to 110 MPH is taking a much higher priority today.

Rafi


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## printman2000 (Mar 8, 2009)

wayman said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> > $2 million for a simple baggage car seems a lot. Of course, I have no idea how much railcars cost, but it does not seem to me a baggage car would cost that much when a full sleeper is $3.5 million.
> ...


Actually, the baggage ar $2 million, sleepers and diners are $3.5 million. That is more than half. Unless my math is off.


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## wayman (Mar 8, 2009)

printman2000 said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > printman2000 said:
> ...


I was figuring that the baggage car has basically zero cost beyond frame, body, trucks, brakes, and HEP since it's pretty much an empty shell. So if we assume $2 million pays for all of that, then $1.5 million pays for the entire interior and additional infrastucture (eg, water, waste) of a diner or sleeper. And the $1.5 million interior cost is less than half the $3.5 total cost of the car.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Mar 8, 2009)

wayman said:


> The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.


There's no freight traffic on the line that we want to make stop consuming foreign petroleum?


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## wayman (Mar 8, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.
> ...


I'm pretty sure most of the freight traffic on that line doesn't terminate or change crews in Lynchburg; making Lynchburg an engine change point for everything would be a huge operations investment for NS, not to mention the cost of investing in a fleet of electric power, etc.


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## Rafi (Mar 8, 2009)

Electrification of freight corridors is a topic that is not lost in Virginia. See RAIL Solution, which has been making headway with NS as of late.

Rafi


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## jis (Mar 8, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Extension of Electrification - Justified by reduction of Carbon Footprint. Apparently the affected freight railroads are not really very opposed to this as long as the infrastructure does not interfere with freight operations.
> ...


No. As I said it was in the "Vision" section of the talk. That is articulation of the general direction that they want to go, but no immediate specifics.


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## sportbiker (Mar 8, 2009)

sechs said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak has taken the Surfliner configuration and standardized it as the model that is presented to states who need a starting point when deciding what to order.
> ...


_Cailifornia Car_ is the first-generation coach that was built by Morrison Knudson. _ Surfliner_ is the second-generation coach built by Alstom.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 8, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Viewliners? Sounds like they're going to spend all this money on the northeast corridor. :angry:


Dude, there are a lot less problems with Superliner capacity than there are with Viewliner capacity. I mean, I admit we could use some more Superliners, too, but the Viewliner is case critical. Trains going out without their full load of sleepers is becoming far too common, the diner situation is insanely critical, and the baggage situation applies to the whole system.



jackal said:


> Great announcement!
> 
> 
> Rafi said:
> ...


The Horizons are junk, Jackal. They are commuter coaches, and should be used as such. They'll probably be relegated to services like the Hiawatha, if they aren't sold to starting commuter railroads outright.



AlanB said:


> Again let me stress that nothing is official yet, even Rafi's news isn't a done deal. Amtrak is heading that one, but no contract has been singed and no monies have actually been paid for anything.
> But that said, all indications that I've seen are for 75 new baggage cars that will double as both a baggage car and a crew dorm. This will allow the existing Superliner Trans/Dorms to become full passenger sleepers. No word if they will receive family rooms or bedrooms, or just retain the current configurations. But it will open up more sleeper compartments regardless.
> 
> Amtrak hopes to order 25 Viewliner sleepers, to beef up the fleet in the east. That most likely will lead to retoration of the overnight sleeper between Boston and DC, perhaps a daily Cardinal, a third sleeper for the Crescent and the Star, as well as a few more spares.
> ...


All I do is hope and pray that the _Broadway Limited_ comes back. And maybe a _Silver Palm_.


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2009)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> how about with the new dining cars they bring back REAL dining service like better service and food.


I have no problem with increasing the staffing in the cars and perhaps bringing back real tablecloths and glass plates. But IMHO there is no reason to go back to the inferior food of the past 5 or 6 years, when the current food being served in the dining cars since last October is so much better and even more importantly, consistant.


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> jackal said:
> 
> 
> > Great announcement!
> ...


Considering that the Hiawatha corridor is the busiest out of Chicago, they'll probably be the first to get the bi-levels so as to increase capacity. Of course that will kill the cart service currently in use, so hopefully they'll get a cafe car.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Mar 8, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Considering that the Hiawatha corridor is the busiest out of Chicago, they'll probably be the first to get the bi-levels so as to increase capacity. Of course that will kill the cart service currently in use, so hopefully they'll get a cafe car.


How long are the current Hiawatha trainsets? I might be misremembering, but I thought I'd heard something last summer about how they'd recently added a third coach or something like that. If the trainsets are just a P42 and three coaches and a cabbage, I'm not sure there's much need to switch to bi-level cars.


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## AlanB (Mar 8, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Considering that the Hiawatha corridor is the busiest out of Chicago, they'll probably be the first to get the bi-levels so as to increase capacity. Of course that will kill the cart service currently in use, so hopefully they'll get a cafe car.
> ...


Hiawatha's run with either 5 or 6 cars.


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## jis (Mar 8, 2009)

wayman said:


> The idea of catenary through Lynchburg, including the turning wye, is simply mindboggling to me. I can't fathom this ever being done... for one, maybe eventually two trains that's a huge investment.


At least in my posting on this subject, when I stated "Virginia" I had Richmond in mind, which I believe is also in Viriginia unless I got my geography all mixed up again  The mention of electrification in Virginia generally is with reference to the Southeast high Speed Corridor, which passes through Richmond, Petersburg, Norlina, Raleigh.


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## Tony (Mar 9, 2009)

wayman said:


> EDIT: whoops, forgot about the _working_ coffee pots (since they said they'd be fixing known design issues with the Viewliner sleepers). That must account for at least a few hundred thousand of the cost per sleeper


The Viewliner coffee pots have always been a favorite example of mine. 

These are commercial grade coffee makers, and while sleeper passengers help themselves to the coffee, it is the "trained" attendants who actually make the coffee. Therefore, I can't understand why it is _so very difficult_ for Amtrak to keep these coffee makers working!

I do indeed like the Viewliner design. I sure hope Amtrak leaves it basically intact, and focuses on only the quality and *durability* of the materials used, for "fit and finish", for any of their changes.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Mar 9, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Would it make sense to find another P42 and cabbage and split the coaches into another trainset and add some more frequencies?


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## Joel N. Weber II (Mar 9, 2009)

wayman said:


> I'm pretty sure most of the freight traffic on that line doesn't terminate or change crews in Lynchburg; making Lynchburg an engine change point for everything would be a huge operations investment for NS,


Why stop the electrification at Lynchburg, then?



wayman said:


> not to mention the cost of investing in a fleet of electric power, etc.


I would expect the freight railroads probably buy a quantity of new locomotives every year somewhere vaguely around 3% of the size of their total fleet. If they electrify their entire system over a number of years equal to the typical lifespan of the typical locomotive, and simply start buying electrics instead of diesels, then the cost of locomotives is only a real issue if electrics are more expensive than diesels.

On the other hand, if our goal is to do something major to petroleum consumption in 10 years instead of 30, maybe cost of locomotives becomes a bigger issue. But maybe we should start with the 30 year plan, since getting people to go along with that will be enough of a challenge right there.

And looking at current passenger electric locomotive prices probably isn't a good way to estimate whether electrics will be more expensive than diesels, since IIRC the freight railroads buy in much larger quantities than the passenger railroads and so should get better prices because of that.


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## AlanB (Mar 9, 2009)

Tony said:


> The Viewliner coffee pots have always been a favorite example of mine.
> These are commercial grade coffee makers, and while sleeper passengers help themselves to the coffee, it is the "trained" attendants who actually make the coffee. Therefore, I can't understand why it is _so very difficult_ for Amtrak to keep these coffee makers working!
> 
> I do indeed like the Viewliner design. I sure hope Amtrak leaves it basically intact, and focuses on only the quality and *durability* of the materials used, for "fit and finish", for any of their changes.


Which coffee pot are you talking about, the metal ones of the new automatic push the button ones? If you're referring to the metal ones where the attendant's actually made the pot of coffee, they didn't go away because they were too hard to keep them working. They went away for safety reasons.

If you're referring to the automatic ones, which were added later to replace the metal pots, those Amtrak is having a hard time keeping working.


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## AlanB (Mar 9, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Joel N. Weber II said:
> ...


Well right now Amtrak is able to handle the current schedule with two trainsets. I believe that adding another frequency would require a third trainset. Now if they can add several frequencies, that might make sense. But if they're going to tie up an entire trainset for just one extra trip, I'm not so sure that's a good use of equipment, especially if greater capacity can be achieved by using bi-level cars.

And then there is still the issue of trying to squeeze any extra runs in between CN's freights and METRA's commuter runs.


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## PaulM (Mar 9, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The Horizons are junk, Jackal. They are commuter coaches, and should be used as such. They'll probably be relegated to services like the Hiawatha, if they aren't sold to starting commuter railroads outright.


Just curious! How often do you ride the Horizon cars? Granted the seat pitch is nothing like the LD superliners, and that some AU'ers object to the exterior surface material. However, maybe it's just good track, but in my experience, the ride quality is fine.
Sitting here in fly-over country, I don't care if they came from NJT or Timbucktu. I'm thrilled (and apparently others are -- if the number cars parked in our recently expanded station parking lot are any indication -- to be able to hop on the train to Chicago and have access to the whole system.



Green Maned Lion said:


> All I do is hope and pray that the _Broadway Limited_ comes back. And maybe a _Silver Palm_.


Won't argue with you there.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 9, 2009)

PaulM said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > The Horizons are junk, Jackal. They are commuter coaches, and should be used as such. They'll probably be relegated to services like the Hiawatha, if they aren't sold to starting commuter railroads outright.
> ...


I've ridden in a "Horizon" car only once. I've ridden in its first cousin, the Comet II, more times than I can count.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 9, 2009)

I have been stuck with the horizon cars here in the Midwest for several years. I don't like them. BC is ok because of the better seats. As noted in other threads, the horizons perform poorly in winter. Additionally, I think the design of the sinks in the bathrooms are ridiculous. One must push up on the bottom of the faucet to get water to come out. When you release, the water flow stops. Naturally, the water sprays all over the passenger and the floor.

I think the bi-level California cars/surfliner cars would be great. Especially if they have the food service cars like on the San Joaquin trains to Bakersfiled. I remember sit down table service on those trains when I rode a few years ago. An upgrade to catering would help too. The caterer in california had a nice selection of food on the capitol corridor trains when I rode two years ago.


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## Kramerica (Mar 9, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > Would it make sense to find another P42 and cabbage and split the coaches into another trainset and add some more frequencies?
> ...


I think the issue is squeezing the extra runs in between the other trains using the track.

While I would be thrilled to have bi-level cars and hopefully a cafe car, my order of preference would be this:

- More frequencies. At least double what we have now, which is every two hours or so. We need a train to Chicago every hour.

- Faster speed. Upgrading the track from 79 to 110 mph will cut the journey time from 89 minutes to 64 minutes.

- Better cars. It would be pretty nice to have tables available.

Hopefully the Horizons are on their way out though, because it appears as though the Hiawathas will be extended for the MIL to Madison service, and then eventually to MSP. The future service to Green Bay could/would also be an extension of the Hiawatha.


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## Shotgun7 (Mar 10, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> I have been stuck with the horizon cars here in the Midwest for several years. I don't like them. BC is ok because of the better seats. As noted in other threads, the horizons perform poorly in winter. Additionally, I think the design of the sinks in the bathrooms are ridiculous. One must push up on the bottom of the faucet to get water to come out. When you release, the water flow stops. Naturally, the water sprays all over the passenger and the floor.
> I think the bi-level California cars/surfliner cars would be great. Especially if they have the food service cars like on the San Joaquin trains to Bakersfiled. I remember sit down table service on those trains when I rode a few years ago. An upgrade to catering would help too. The caterer in california had a nice selection of food on the capitol corridor trains when I rode two years ago.


Many, many other Amtrak cars have that sort of "push up" sink faucet. I never paid too much attention, but from what I can immediately remember, non refurbished amfleet bathrooms and viewliners definitely have them. You do have to develop a sort of knack to keep yourself dry. IIRC the newer amfleet bathrooms (I and II) and refurbished Superliner sleepers have a more functional sink.

But I do agree with you that Horizons don't belong on any Amtrak train, especially in winter.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Mar 10, 2009)

Shotgun7 said:


> Many, many other Amtrak cars have that sort of "push up" sink faucet. I never paid too much attention, but from what I can immediately remember, non refurbished amfleet bathrooms and viewliners definitely have them. You do have to develop a sort of knack to keep yourself dry. IIRC the newer amfleet bathrooms (I and II) and refurbished Superliner sleepers have a more functional sink.


Viewliners have levers you push down on to get water. This has the added benefit that you can actually control the temperature, rather than being stuck with scalding water as sometimes happens with the push up style. Also, in addition to hot and cold, the Viewliners have ice water.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Mar 10, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Well right now Amtrak is able to handle the current schedule with two trainsets. I believe that adding another frequency would require a third trainset. Now if they can add several frequencies, that might make sense. But if they're going to tie up an entire trainset for just one extra trip, I'm not so sure that's a good use of equipment, especially if greater capacity can be achieved by using bi-level cars.
> And then there is still the issue of trying to squeeze any extra runs in between CN's freights and METRA's commuter runs.


I would certainly hope that if they add a third trainset they'd have that third trainset make about as many trips each day as each of the first two trainsets do. But I don't really know the details of the track capacity situation.


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## sechs (Mar 10, 2009)

sportbiker said:


> Cailifornia Car is the first-generation coach that was built by Morrison Knudson. Surfliner is the second-generation coach built by Alstom.


If you want to get technical, yes, the first order of California Cars made in the 90's was indeed made by Morrison Knudson. These were subsequently rebuilt by Siemens, if I recall correctly.

The second order of California Cars were made by Alstom. These were made after the Surfliner cars. The cars were delivered in 2001-2002. They are similar, but not identical to the Surfliner cars, as they were built for the Capitol Corridor service. For example, I have yet to find a place to put a surfboard on a California car (rarely a problem, I might add).


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## AlanB (Mar 10, 2009)

sechs said:


> The second order of California Cars were made by Alstom. These were made after the Surfliner cars. The cars were delivered in 2001-2002. They are similar, but not identical to the Surfliner cars, as they were built for the Capitol Corridor service. For example, I have yet to find a place to put a surfboard on a California car (rarely a problem, I might add).


That's not really correct. Alstom delivered more Surfliners in 2002 some of which went to the Capital Corridor and the San Jaoquins. I'm not certain on whether those cars that went to the CC/SJ services are exactly the same as the Surfliners, or modifications were made to those cars destined for the CC/SJ services.


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## sportbiker (Mar 10, 2009)

sechs said:


> sportbiker said:
> 
> 
> > Cailifornia Car is the first-generation coach that was built by Morrison Knudson. Surfliner is the second-generation coach built by Alstom.
> ...


Pacing Alan's comments, there are only two series: California Cars (in the 8000 series) were M-K builds and delivered beginning 1996. They have onboard bicycle racks. Surfliner cars (in the 6000 series) have a different interior design, were Alstom builds, and were delivered in 2001-2002. They have onboard bicycle and surfboard racks. California Cars are used exclusively on the San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor routes; none are found on the Surfliner route. Surfliner cars are used almost exclusively on the Surfliner route, but a few cars are used on the SJ/CC routes.

To sum-up: if it's an 8000-series, it's a M-K California Car; if it's a 6000-series, it's an Alstom Surfliner car.


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## Tony (Mar 10, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Which coffee pot are you talking about, the metal ones of the new automatic push the button ones? If you're referring to the metal ones where the attendant's actually made the pot of coffee, they didn't go away because they were too hard to keep them working. They went away for safety reasons.
> If you're referring to the automatic ones, which were added later to replace the metal pots, those Amtrak is having a hard time keeping working.


Gosh, I seem to recall having more than just two types of coffee makers in the Viewliners over the years. Though, honestly, I wasn't keeping notes on model numbers, etc. 

However, I do remember "metal ones" being there, but not working. Did Amtrak disconnect the "metal ones", but leave them installed for a while? If so, I could be miss-remember that as a broken (non-functioning) coffee pot.

I do remember once having a non-working coffee pot in my Viewliner, and attempting to use the coffee maker in another Viewliner (which I pass by, on the way to the dinning car). The attendant in that other Viewliner got extremely upset at me for daring to help myself to "his coffee". In all my years, that was the only time I had ever encountered a really nasty attendant. Hay, it wasn't like I was a coach passenger attempting to steal a fee cup of coffee or something.


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## PaulM (Mar 10, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> I have been stuck with the horizon cars here in the Midwest for several years. I don't like them. .... Additionally, I think the design of the sinks in the bathrooms are ridiculous.


How could I have forgotten them? Dumbest thing I've ever seen. I guess it's what they call selective memory.


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## wayman (Mar 10, 2009)

Kramerica said:


> Hopefully the Horizons are on their way out though, because it appears as though the Hiawathas will be extended for the MIL to Madison service, and then eventually to MSP. The future service to Green Bay could/would also be an extension of the Hiawatha.


I've heard mentions of a future Duluth service, but this is the first I've heard of future Madison service. What stage is the Madison proposal at? What's the earliest such service could start? 2014 or so?


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## AlanB (Mar 10, 2009)

Tony said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Which coffee pot are you talking about, the metal ones of the new automatic push the button ones? If you're referring to the metal ones where the attendant's actually made the pot of coffee, they didn't go away because they were too hard to keep them working. They went away for safety reasons.
> ...


Yes, I believe that there was a period of time where Amtrak had disconnected the metal pots as they were working to install the automatic ones or at least had decided to stop fixing the metal ones when they did break, since they were shifting to the automatic ones.

But at least in my experience the metal ones were far more reliable than the new automatic ones.

And that other attendant was dead wrong for being upset with you, unless he thought that you had come from the coaches.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 10, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Tony said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


"his coffee" so he thought that it was for employees only. boy is he asking for a pink slip.


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## Amtrak839 (Mar 10, 2009)

> All I do is hope and pray that the _Broadway Limited_ comes back. And maybe a _Silver Palm_.


That would be possible with 75 Viewliners. The Twilight Shoreliner could also come back. I was playing with the numbers:

Silver Meteor: 4 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (8). TOTAL=8

Silver Star: 4 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (8). TOTAL=16

Silver Palm: 4 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (8). TOTAL=24

Crescent: 4 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (8). TOTAL=32

Cardinal (daily): 3 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (6). TOTAL=38

Broadway Limited: 3 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (6). TOTAL=44

Lake Shore Limited: 3 consists, 3 sleepers per consist (9). TOTAL=53.

Twilight Shoreliner: 2 consists, 1 sleeper per consist (2). TOTAL=55.

Spares: NYP (6), BOS (1), CHI (3), NOL (1), MIA (3). TOTAL=69

Out for maintenance: 6.

GRAND TOTAL: 75


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 10, 2009)

Let me try my numbers:

My numbers are for the use of ALL long distance cars, and operates on the assumption of fulfillment of only the current order.



Amtrak839 said:


> _Silver Service_: 10 consists *Viewliner Baggage:* 1 Baggage per consist (10) TOTAL=10
> 
> *Viewliner Sleepers:* 3 sleepers per consist (30) TOTAL=30
> 
> ...



Note: My numbers assume the _Palmetto_ and _Pennsylvanian_ goes to Amfleet Is and continues to operate.


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## BuzzKillington (Mar 10, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Let me try my numbers:
> My numbers are for the use of ALL long distance cars, and operates on the assumption of fulfillment of only the current order.
> 
> 
> ...


Wouldnt the Silver Palm run in place of the Palmetto? I think thats how it used to be when it ran, but I could be wrong. That would free up some more cars.


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## Amtrak839 (Mar 10, 2009)

Yes, the Silver Palm would replace the Palmetto. Actually, it would really be a re-extension of the Palmetto back to Miami, and upgrading the train's amenities to include sleeper and full dining service (standard on all Silver Service trains), so it would re-assume the name Silver Palm.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 10, 2009)

Amtrak839 said:


> Yes, the Silver Palm would replace the Palmetto. Actually, it would really be a re-extension of the Palmetto back to Miami, and upgrading the train's amenities to include sleeper and full dining service (standard on all Silver Service trains), so it would re-assume the name Silver Palm.


Not on my railroad. On my railroad, the Palmetto would be a day train running between New York and Savannah, whilst the Silver Palm would be running that overnight and then taking the line from Jacksonville to Tampa and then Miami.


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## AlanB (Mar 10, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> _Lake Shore Limited_: 3 consists *Viewliner Baggage:* 2 Baggage per consist (6) TOTAL=26
> 
> *Viewliner Sleepers:* 3 sleepers per consist (6) TOTAL=60
> 
> ...


Um, you've got a problem with the math here, 3 sleepers times 3 consists equals 9, not 6.



Green Maned Lion said:


> _ A spare at Boston isn't that important since one can get there in a few hours on the back of a Regional._


I disagree. Typically when one needs the spare the most is right before departure when you discover that something is wrong with an existing car and you can't fix it fast enough for an ontime departure. So if the LSL is about to depart in a hour, there won't be enough time to get a sleeper from Sunnyside up to Boston.



Green Maned Lion said:


> Note: My numbers assume the _Palmetto_ and _Pennsylvanian_ goes to Amfleet Is and continues to operate.


I'm confused, you say that you're assuming that the Palmetto goes to AMF I's, yet you counted it in your list with AMF II's. :unsure:


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## AlanB (Mar 10, 2009)

Amtrak839 said:


> Silver Meteor: 4 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (8). TOTAL=8


This would result in a downgrade for this train, as it currently runs with 3 sleepers.



Amtrak839 said:


> Spares: NYP (6), BOS (1), CHI (3), NOL (1), MIA (3). TOTAL=69


That's way too many spares for NY. At most they should have 3 or maybe 4 on standby, and Chicago can make do with 2.


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## Amtrak839 (Mar 10, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Amtrak839 said:
> 
> 
> > Silver Meteor: 4 consists, 2 sleepers per consist (8). TOTAL=8
> ...


Yes, that is a downgrade, but the Silver Palm would serve most of the same cities, and it would also have 2 sleepers. Overall it's a net plus of 1 sleeper for most cities on the route. Although it wouldn't benefit Orlando, which is a drawback. You could probably price the trains in such a way as to get more south Florida passengers onto the Silver Palm, leaving more space open for Orlando passengers on the Meteor and Star.

You're probably right about the spares in NYP. If you left 3 in New York, and 2 in Chicago, then you could add a third sleeper to the Crescent or let the Meteor keep its third. Or, you could add a second sleeper to the Twilight Shoreliner, if there was enough demand. It will be interesting to see how Amtrak actually chooses to distribute the new equipment when the time comes.


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## Kramerica (Mar 11, 2009)

wayman said:


> Kramerica said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully the Horizons are on their way out though, because it appears as though the Hiawathas will be extended for the MIL to Madison service, and then eventually to MSP. The future service to Green Bay could/would also be an extension of the Hiawatha.
> ...


Check out page 10 of the MWRRI report to see where I got my assumption of the Hiawatha being extended. (17 trains CHI-MKE, then 7 of those to GRB and 10 of those to MAD)

The MKE-MAD corridor has had an Environmental Assessment and FONSI, so it is just waiting for money. It appears as though the eastern half of the route is going to be upgraded using stimulus money. Unfortunately, that's the easy half, being that the Empire Builder already runs at 79 mph on that MKE-Watertown segment. The hard part is the Watertown-Madison track, which I believe is not being used right now. I read that the State bought that line a few years ago for passenger rail use and it is sitting idle.

So, given that we find another couple hundred million dollars, that track could be ready in 2-3 years. And I presume that finding a couple more Horizon trainsets wouldn't be too terribly difficult.

Given the completed Environmental Assessment, the big support of rail by Governor Doyle, the state legislature being controlled by the Democrats, and funding for half the track work already in place, I'd say that the MKE-MAD train has the best chance of happening in the Midwest, of all the various train proposals.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 11, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > _Lake Shore Limited_: 3 consists *Viewliner Baggage:* 2 Baggage per consist (6) TOTAL=26
> ...


I reworked my math a bunch of times. I'm not shocked I screwed up. Do the totals add up, though? I think they actually do, I think I just accidentally left a 6 there instead of a 9.

Scratch my comment about the Palmetto. I didn't think I could dig up enough AMFIIs for the run, but apparently I did.


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## AlanB (Mar 11, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I reworked my math a bunch of times. I'm not shocked I screwed up. Do the totals add up, though? I think they actually do, I think I just accidentally left a 6 there instead of a 9.


Sorry, but no, you had 54 total sleepers at the B'way Limited and then went to 60 with the LSL. That's a difference of 6, not 9. And I see no other unaccounted for variences along the way.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 11, 2009)

I hope they hire you guys to do this. I would love to get the broadway back.


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## D.P. Roberts (Mar 11, 2009)

jis said:


> 3. The Bilevel Corridor Cars are Superliner/Surfliner-like cars for use in Midwestern Corridors. Their induction will release the cars that are currently being used there - both LD Superliners and Amfleet/Horizon for use elsewhere. Also they will alleviate winter issues with the single level cars around Chicago. Also these cars will be usable in LD trains for short distance passengers.


Do we know which Midwest routes are going to get these? I know the Pere Marquette is one that switches to Superliners in the winter due to the freezing issues. I'd love to see those switch to brand-spankin-new Superliners all year round!


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## Steve4031 (Mar 11, 2009)

An educated guess on my part. It seems to me that the Superliners show up most frequently on the Chicago Detroit route during the winter. I suspect the the Chicago Detroit route would get them, and then the Chicago St. louis routes. I am assuming that these are the two busiest routes so they would get them first. I saw somplace in this thread that the order would be for 130 of these cars. So I suspect there would be enough cars to eventually cover all of the midwest routes.


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## AmtrakWPK (Mar 11, 2009)

If you are keeping the Palmetto and adding Silver Palm, then why not run Palm down the FEC line from JAX to MIA? There is no passenger service south of JAX to West Palm on the Florida east coast. Amtrak and FEC were in serious talks a few years ago about starting up a passenger service on the FEC east coast tracks. You can't get to St. Augustine, Ormond Beach, Daytona Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Cocoa Beach, Melbourne, Stuart, Vero Beach, etc, by train, and that would probably be a good market.

If we want to have enough equipment to also restart service New Orleans-JAX (the "temporarily suspended" east end of Sunset), why not look at (1) extending Palmetto to JAX and running a new service (on the FEC) JAX-MIA, and restarting NOL-JAX, making JAX a connect hub for Palmetto/Palm, Sunset-east, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor, or (2) extend Palmetto to MIA on the east coast FEC tracks. Tampa currently has rail service via the Star's dog-leg, and a bus connection to the Meteor at Orlando to Tampa (with a bus connection down the southwest FLA coast to Ft. Myers as well) and bus connex on the CSX S-line Palm/Palmetto path through Ocala and Gainesville. I would frankly expect a higher passenger count from an FEC east-coast run than whatever you might gain from switching the interior Tamp-Jax S-Line bus back to a train.

To add significantly into this equation, central Florida is currently working on a north-south A-Line commuter service that will run from Amtrak Deland down to just south of Amtrak Kissimmee (Poinciana). This commuter startup will also involve rerouting most CSX freight from the A-Line to the S-Line, (adding to the existing S-Line CSX freight traffic) making the restart of a Palm S-Line service more problematic, and with all the commuter train traffic that will be running through the A-Line Orlando corridor, adding a third Amtrak train through Orlando (actually a fourth through that corridor, since Auto-Train at Sanford will also be in the new commuter corridor from Sanford north to Deland) would also be a problem. I am already wondering if they will want to build a new, elevated rail bridge over the St. John's River at the north end of Sanford, given the much greater frequency of train service that bridge is going to see, plus of course that is a single track bridge, and I think they will try to double-track the entire corridor (a good bit of that corridor already is double). Complicating the idea of a new rail elevated bridge is the fact that they just recently finished a new wider elevated I- 4 bridge over the St. John's River and the A-Line track goes under that and then makes a 90 degree turn just before it gets to the existing rail drawbridge, so they might have to re-route that entire track section to do a new elevated rail bridge.


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## BuzzKillington (Mar 11, 2009)

Perhaps they could have one Silver Service train run to and terminate in Tampa (or continue to Miami if they want the equipment there). One train can take the Inland route through Orlando to Miami (bus connection to Tampa) and one train can take the East Coast route with a clear shot to Miami (110mph?).

Edit: Never mind... looks like post # 84 stole my thunder.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 11, 2009)

Mods: please delete my previous "guest" post



AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > I reworked my math a bunch of times. I'm not shocked I screwed up. Do the totals add up, though? I think they actually do, I think I just accidentally left a 6 there instead of a 9.
> ...


Well dangit. Then lets run 3 of the Silver Service sets with 2, then. That assumes that you actually need 10. I still say you can run all three trains, properly scheduled, with 9 sets total. One leaves in the morning, lets say the Star, one leaves about mid day (Meteor) and one leaves for dinner (Palm). If you run it like that, I'm positive you can cover it with 9 sets.



AmtrakWPK said:


> If you are keeping the Palmetto and adding Silver Palm, then why not run Palm down the FEC line from JAX to MIA? There is no passenger service south of JAX to West Palm on the Florida east coast. Amtrak and FEC were in serious talks a few years ago about starting up a passenger service on the FEC east coast tracks. You can't get to St. Augustine, Ormond Beach, Daytona Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Cocoa Beach, Melbourne, Stuart, Vero Beach, etc, by train, and that would probably be a good market.
> If we want to have enough equipment to also restart service New Orleans-JAX (the "temporarily suspended" east end of Sunset), why not look at (1) extending Palmetto to JAX and running a new service (on the FEC) JAX-MIA, and restarting NOL-JAX, making JAX a connect hub for Palmetto/Palm, Sunset-east, Silver Star, and Silver Meteor, or (2) extend Palmetto to MIA on the east coast FEC tracks. Tampa currently has rail service via the Star's dog-leg, and a bus connection to the Meteor at Orlando to Tampa (with a bus connection down the southwest FLA coast to Ft. Myers as well) and bus connex on the CSX S-line Palm/Palmetto path through Ocala and Gainesville. I would frankly expect a higher passenger count from an FEC east-coast run than whatever you might gain from switching the interior Tamp-Jax S-Line bus back to a train.
> 
> To add significantly into this equation, central Florida is currently working on a north-south A-Line commuter service that will run from Amtrak Deland down to just south of Amtrak Kissimmee (Poinciana). This commuter startup will also involve rerouting most CSX freight from the A-Line to the S-Line, (adding to the existing S-Line CSX freight traffic) making the restart of a Palm S-Line service more problematic, and with all the commuter train traffic that will be running through the A-Line Orlando corridor, adding a third Amtrak train through Orlando (actually a fourth through that corridor, since Auto-Train at Sanford will also be in the new commuter corridor from Sanford north to Deland) would also be a problem. I am already wondering if they will want to build a new, elevated rail bridge over the St. John's River at the north end of Sanford, given the much greater frequency of train service that bridge is going to see, plus of course that is a single track bridge, and I think they will try to double-track the entire corridor (a good bit of that corridor already is double). Complicating the idea of a new rail elevated bridge is the fact that they just recently finished a new wider elevated I- 4 bridge over the St. John's River and the A-Line track goes under that and then makes a 90 degree turn just before it gets to the existing rail drawbridge, so they might have to re-route that entire track section to do a new elevated rail bridge.



FEC runs too close to the current line to justify the expense, time, and frankly, running of a train over it. Covering the line I'm suggesting would add a bunch of cities that are over an hour from Amtrak service. I want to maximize the number of people within an hour of Amtrak service. Running it on the FEC makes no sense, other than FECs apparent ability to run a decent railroad.

When we have 95% of the US within an hour of Amtrak service, we can consider such silliness as carpeting the country with redundant routes. Otherwise, I'd just as well have Amtrak spend the money for running on the FEC on upgrading and restoring the Pioneer.


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## VentureForth (Mar 11, 2009)

First of all, I find it funny that the purchasing of new equipment at Amtrak is called an "Investment". Except that my 401(k) investment has, in the past year, gone the same direction in value... At least I hope mine will be worth _more_ some day.

What the heck is a Viewliner coach going to look like? Already sounds too heavy for its use. But it is almost the right height for the P42 locos, so that'll make 'em look nice.


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## printman2000 (Mar 11, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> First of all, I find it funny that the purchasing of new equipment at Amtrak is called an "Investment". Except that my 401(k) investment has, in the past year, gone the same direction in value... At least I hope mine will be worth _more_ some day.
> What the heck is a Viewliner coach going to look like? Already sounds too heavy for its use. But it is almost the right height for the P42 locos, so that'll make 'em look nice.


Not that they have any plans yest for viewliner coaches, but I would say you put in some big windows as opposed to two rows of windows like the sleepers. Not as large as both windows put together, but really good sized.


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## AmtrakWPK (Mar 11, 2009)

Melbourne area population about 400,000

Daytona area population over 250,000

Titusville area: over 50,000, and includes quick access to Cocoa Beach, the Kennedy Space Center, the Port Canaveral Cruise Ship Terminal etc.

St. Augustine area over 50,000

Vero Beach area over 120,000

Port Saint Lucie Urbanized Area - 270,774

All of those are directly along the path of the FEC and have no passenger rail service directly or by bus connection. S-Line cities (former Palm/Palmetto) still have bus connex. Please actually read what I wrote about the Orlando commuter rail and rerouting of A-Line freight traffic over to S-Line.



> FEC runs too close to the current line to justify the expense, time, and frankly, running of a train over it. Covering the line I'm suggesting would add a bunch of cities that are over an hour from Amtrak service. I want to maximize the number of people within an hour of Amtrak service. Running it on the FEC makes no sense, other than FECs apparent ability to run a decent railroad.


Respectfully, Baloney. I live down here, just off the A-Line through Orlando. I have talked with folks who live along the coast and who would love to have train service. The reason there is a Daytona Beach commercial airport, and a Melbourne commercial airport is that a lot of those folks WILL NOT drive over an hour to get to MCO (Orlando International) to get on an airplane.

Running it over FEC would directly serve a population of over a million who now have NO train service, and would probably make the JAX-MIA transit in several fewer hours than running it either on the S-Line or on the A-Line.


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## jis (Mar 11, 2009)

AmtrakWPK said:


> > FEC runs too close to the current line to justify the expense, time, and frankly, running of a train over it. Covering the line I'm suggesting would add a bunch of cities that are over an hour from Amtrak service. I want to maximize the number of people within an hour of Amtrak service. Running it on the FEC makes no sense, other than FECs apparent ability to run a decent railroad.
> 
> 
> Respectfully, Baloney. I live down here, just off the A-Line through Orlando. I have talked with folks who live along the coast and who would love to have train service. The reason there is a Daytona Beach commercial airport, and a Melbourne commercial airport is that a lot of those folks WILL NOT drive over an hour to get to MCO (Orlando International) to get on an airplane.
> ...


I completely agree with AmtrakWPK on this point. My significant other lives down that way and having spent considerable time in that area, it is quite obvious to me at least that starting passenger service on FEC is most likely to be very successful of various possible routes in Florida. It will most likely do much better than NOL - JAX for example, just to pick one that everyone gets excited about. It also meshes nicely with the plans of Tri-Rail to extend service over FEC to Jupiter. Actually, a single train a day will prove to be insufficient very quickly.

OTOH, I would also add that addition of such service should not be at the cost of reducing service to Orlando, because Orlando is a huge O/D location in Florida.


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## bobw999 (Mar 11, 2009)

I think it would be a smart idea to use the FEC tracks. I can think of many occasions this year that I could have taken the train to Daytona Beach/Melbourne to visit family, weddings, birthdays, but instead I have to drive on I-95 which is a mess just north of West Palm, although the rest of the way isn't that bad.

Im not holding my breath but I hope to see rail service on the FEC in the next 10 years.


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## Mark (Mar 12, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> An educated guess on my part. It seems to me that the Superliners show up most frequently on the Chicago Detroit route during the winter. I suspect the the Chicago Detroit route would get them, and then the Chicago St. louis routes. I am assuming that these are the two busiest routes so they would get them first. I saw somplace in this thread that the order would be for 130 of these cars. So I suspect there would be enough cars to eventually cover all of the midwest routes.


If either of these routes gets the "thumbs up" for 110 mph running the Superliners are out. They are only rated to 90 or 100mph, I believe.


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## p&sr (Mar 12, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> First of all, I find it funny that the purchasing of new equipment at Amtrak is called an "Investment".


Perhaps "capital expenditure" would be a better term?


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 12, 2009)

If you're advocating a corridor service, fine. The FEC would make sense for that. But not an LD route. I'd rather serve both coasts of FL with a long distance train, then serve things the way you are talking. Look, if I had things my way, Amtrak's timetable would be as thick as a 1950s Official Guide To The Railroads, and we'd have routes going every which way all hours of the day and night. I mean, the FEC would look like the bloody Northeast Corridor.

But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money, I'd be coming up with a way to build a viable Surfliner sleeper and bringing back, in no particular order, the _North Coast Hiawatha_, _Pioneer_, _Desert Wind_, _Lone Star_, _Floridian_, and _Spirit of California_. Florida can handle 7-9 Viewliners and 12 to 15 Amfleets every day, god knows. And we're talking Viewliner service here. I want a complete network before we go overboard and crisscross FL the way Byrd did WV in the 1970s.


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## WICT106 (Mar 12, 2009)

Mark said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > An educated guess on my part. It seems to me that the Superliners show up most frequently on the Chicago Detroit route during the winter. I suspect the the Chicago Detroit route would get them, and then the Chicago St. louis routes. I am assuming that these are the two busiest routes so they would get them first. I saw somplace in this thread that the order would be for 130 of these cars. So I suspect there would be enough cars to eventually cover all of the midwest routes.
> ...


Superliner 2's have trucks that are designed for 110 mph operation, I think.


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## jphjaxfl (Mar 12, 2009)

I live in Jacksonville and I agree with AmtrakWPK that trains utlilizing the FEC line would be well patronized. I think there should be two trains per day in each direction to give passengers a choice. The FEC was orginally double tracked from JAX to MIA so there should still be room to add an additional track over the route. I think eventually a Tri Rail commuter line will utilize the FEC from West Palm to MIA. There is really more population along the the FEC than either of the inland routes. Before the big strike in the mid 1960s when FEC got rid of the Unions and streamlined the RR, the FEC carried more passengers from JAX to MIA than the SAL did. I drive from JAX to So. Fl 3-4 times a year and would welcome a train that could make the route in 4-5 hours which is comparable to driving. Unfortunately, Amtrak times from JAX to So. FL are slow and one never knows if the trains will arrive from NYC on time.


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## jphjaxfl (Mar 12, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money,


You can't compare Florida and West Virginia. Florida has much less Amtrak Service than they had orginally with Amtrak. For a number of years, there were 3 daily trains from Jacksonville to Miami on Amtrak (without going through Tampa. The Silver Meteor, The Silver Star (which split at Auburndale) and the South Wind later Floridian. There were 3 daily trains from Jacksonville to Tampa and St. Petersburg. The Champion, the Silver Star and the Floridian. Even after the Champion was discontinued north of Jacksonville, a section of the Silver Meteor split from the NYC-MIA train at JAX to run to Tampa. Amtrak with CSX's encouragement has gradually whittled down the passenger service within Florida. I think the State of Florida needs to support Amtrak better with some funding much as California has. I think that may happen in the near future. Amtrak's future is serving densley populated areas all over the US.


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## frj1983 (Mar 12, 2009)

I believe that a few years ago, FEC was open to letting Amtrak run some passenger trains on it's route. But FEC was recently purchased by RailAmerica and I'm not sure how open that corporation would be to passenger trains now?? It may now be a lost cause. :huh:


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## transit54 (Mar 12, 2009)

frj1983 said:


> I believe that a few years ago, FEC was open to letting Amtrak run some passenger trains on it's route. But FEC was recently purchased by RailAmerica and I'm not sure how open that corporation would be to passenger trains now?? It may now be a lost cause. :huh:


The NECR, another Rail America entity, has always been open to Amtrak trains on its track. They made it very clear they would prefer the Vermonter to stay when the state tossed around the idea of cutting it back. Now, the primary reasons for this are: 1) They are not operating at track capacity, so they experience some revenue gain by allowing Amtrak to use the tracks when they'd otherwise be idle, and 2) They receive a significant sum to keep their track up to 40/59 MPH standards, which they otherwise would not do. FEC operates much more in terms of volume, so these issues may be absolutely irrelevant. But Rail America isn't always opposed to running Amtrak trains on its tracks.


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## jis (Mar 12, 2009)

frj1983 said:


> I believe that a few years ago, FEC was open to letting Amtrak run some passenger trains on it's route. But FEC was recently purchased by RailAmerica and I'm not sure how open that corporation would be to passenger trains now?? It may now be a lost cause. :huh:


For suitable amount of monetary contribution to add necessary sidings I am sure they will still be quite open. They are already in negotiations with Tri-Rail for service south of Jupiter anyway.


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## frj1983 (Mar 12, 2009)

jis said:


> frj1983 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that a few years ago, FEC was open to letting Amtrak run some passenger trains on it's route. But FEC was recently purchased by RailAmerica and I'm not sure how open that corporation would be to passenger trains now?? It may now be a lost cause. :huh:
> ...


Well..I stand corrected! :blink:


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## Steve4031 (Mar 12, 2009)

What is the top speed for the california/surfliner cars? It would seem to me that the 130 new bi-levels for corridors service should be built for a top speed of 125 mph. To do otherwise would not makes sense.

As far as the FEC line, this would be a prime candidate for start up of a high speed corridor in Florida. With the population base that was described, this would be a no brainer. Additionally, I support a third full service long distance train between NYC and Florida operating along the FEC in addition to the corridor type service on the FEC.

If they really wanted to get going with high speed rail, they would have all passenger trains operate on the FEC bewtween Jacksonville and Daytona, and then have a line branch off to serve Orlando and Tampa. There should be a line from Tampa to Orlando area, and Miami.

The other thought, have a station that would actually serve Disney World. It should be south of the current location near Universal Studio's and Disney world. With frequent light rail service between the station and disneyworld and Universal Studio. This station should be connected to the Daytona-Orlando-Tampa line and the Tampa Orlando Miami line.

I know that this does not reflect the current rail infrastructure, but where there is a will, there is a way.


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## AmtrakWPK (Mar 12, 2009)

re Florida routes;

Tri-Rail commuter trains currently cover West Palm to south of Miami Amtrak, using the same tracks and stations, as Amtrak, except that Amtrak Miami is a "dead end" station that Tri-Rail does not serve. All other Amtrak stops from West Palm south are both Amtrak and Tri-Rail station stops, and Tri-Rail has a number of additional station stops that Amtrak does NOT use as station stops. A JAX - West Palm (or JAX - MIA) Amtrak service using the FEC would be a very good thing to start, to serve the Florida east coast, connecting at West Palm with the Silver Service trains to/from MIA or to go all the way to MIA, and at JAX with Silver Service trains. It might also be enough to get Amtrak off it's "on the fence" position on NOL-JAX, suspended after the hurricane hit NOL, and would provide expedited MIA-NOL service compared to having the JAX connection with current Silver Service trains that run through interior Florida. And at that point it would probably make sense to extend Palmetto to JAX instead of terminating at SAV, and perhaps try to make a reasonably short layover between that and the FEC-based train. An FEC-based train should be able to connect JAX with West Palm (and therefore the entire West-Palm - MIA corridor by connecting with Silver Service or Tri-Rail) in significantly less time than it currently takes for the Star or Meteor to go Jax-MIA on the inland route. The question is whether to have the new service terminate at West Palm, which has no Amtrak servicing facilities or crewbase, or to have it continue to MIA. Servicing and crewbase argue for a MIA termination, while added congestion with existing rail service, freight, Tr-Rail commuter, and Amtrak Silver Service would argue for a West Palm termination, and possibly a Jupiter termination when Tri-Rail expansion to Jupiter is operational. On the other hand, Tri-Rail is really not set up to handle baggage, which would be necessary for the Amtrak pax.

As an aside, re Disney, Disney had wanted a rail system built from MCO (Orlando Int'l airport) through to Disney. That may or may not happen. It would be a boon to Disney and it's employees to have some sort of connection from Disney to the planned Commuter Rail, and I would expect that to eventually happen. As it stands, however, the commuter service will use the existing A-Line, which is east of I-4. If (and I expect they will ) they build a commuter station between Kissimmee and Orlando, Disney would undoubtedly run a bus connex to it's Park properties. Right now, four Amtrak Stations are part of the commuter rail plan - Deland, Winter Park, Orlando, and Kissimmee. The total build-out will have 17 station stops on the commuter system ('SunRail').

Here is a link to their current planning PDF: http://www.sunrail.com/Files/Brochures/Bro...QualityTime.pdf

As noted in that PDF, there is also a plan for Light Rail that would connect with the commuter system and go through the International Drive corridor south and west of Orlando and my guess is that it would eventually terminate at Disney which is on the far side of Int'l Drive from Orlando. The central point of this whole system apparently is planned to be the new Lynx (bus) multi-mode terminal recently built right along the rails through downtown Orlando with room for a large parking lot.

Anyway, if you go through that PDF, it will give you a good understanding of what is planned, rail-wise, along the S-Line and A-Line and through the Central Florida area, and any Amtrak route planning MUST take all of that into consideration. They are moving ahead with the commuter project - the land for the nearest commuter station to my home has already been purchased for that purpose, and the existing buildings razed and cleared. It will be a commuter rail station with a parking lot and a Lynx bus system connection run-through. Location is State Road 436 (Semoran Blvd) in Altamonte Springs, on the north side of S.R. 436, on the west side of the track.


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## AlanB (Mar 12, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money, I'd be coming up with a way to build a viable Surfliner sleeper and bringing back, in no particular order, the _North Coast Hiawatha_, _Pioneer_, _Desert Wind_, _Lone Star_, _Floridian_, and _Spirit of California_. Florida can handle 7-9 Viewliners and 12 to 15 Amfleets every day, god knows. And we're talking Viewliner service here. I want a complete network before we go overboard and crisscross FL the way Byrd did WV in the 1970s.


While I don't disagree that getting some of those trains you've named back would be a good thing, here's the problem with that idea and the reason to get service running on the FEC. Amtrak isn't buying Superliner styled cars, they are buying Viewliners. There is no point in just letting those cars sit around unused because we want other routes before we get the FEC running.

Now personally I think that the idea of just running one new or existing Silver train down the FEC is the wrong approach. I believe that we need a plan like we had several years back in the Network Growth Strategy plan. That being three sleeper trains to Florida that split in JAX to service the various routes. I also think that the Palmetto should be extended to JAX and terminate there.


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## AlanB (Mar 12, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> The other thought, have a station that would actually serve Disney World. It should be south of the current location near Universal Studio's and Disney world. With frequent light rail service between the station and disneyworld and Universal Studio. This station should be connected to the Daytona-Orlando-Tampa line and the Tampa Orlando Miami line.


Steve,

It's a wonderful idea and something that really should get done even right now. Sadly the reality is that Universal and other parks won't stand for Disney getting it's own stop, and Disney will fight any stop that might be offered to Universal, even if Disney is still getting their own stop.

And then the local NIMBY's that seem to come out of the woodwork anytime you mention the word train, will jump in with which ever side is opposing a stop and kill the project.


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## MattW (Mar 12, 2009)

If you're going to run a train down FEC, why not run it through Atlanta to Chicago instead of NYP? It's a more direct route than ATL-ORL because ATL-ORL means you have to go roughly SE to JAX, then roughly SW to ORL. People could still transfer at JAX to ORL etc.

And yes, I'll grasp at any straws that could expand Amtrak service in Atlanta.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 12, 2009)

jphjaxfl said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money,
> ...


I am pretty sure I know more about Amtrak route history than you do, since I have schedules from every single year- several from most years. I'm not talking population, because population is irrelevent to my point. _Corridor_ trains and commuter rail is good for serving what you are talking about. Long distance trains are a whole different ball game. I agree there should be JAX-MIA and JAX-TPA corridors, and if you want to split the JAX-MIA corridors between the FEC and SAL I like it. We have a lot less trains all over the place than we did in the 70s. The _North Star, Shenandoah, Hilltopper, Mountaineer, North Coast Hiawatha, Pioneer, Broadway Limited, Floridian, Niagara Rainbow, National Limited, Blue Ridge, Champion, Arrowhead, International, Blue Water Limited, Black Hawk_, and _Lone Star_ are all gone. Florida isn't that unusual- it still has the most long-distance service of any place in the US.



AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > But we have limited resources, and central/eastern Florida is relatively covered. So is western, and if it was my money, I'd be coming up with a way to build a viable Surfliner sleeper and bringing back, in no particular order, the _North Coast Hiawatha_, _Pioneer_, _Desert Wind_, _Lone Star_, _Floridian_, and _Spirit of California_. Florida can handle 7-9 Viewliners and 12 to 15 Amfleets every day, god knows. And we're talking Viewliner service here. I want a complete network before we go overboard and crisscross FL the way Byrd did WV in the 1970s.
> ...


I agree with you on the Palmetto. We should run one on the S, one on the A, and if you really insist, one on the FEC. But if we have to pick between running the FEC and restoring service to Waldo, Ocala, Wildwood, and Dade City, I pick the latter.

Why can't we build a suitable sleeper out of a Surfliner shell? I mean, we'd need to get rid of one of the door pairs and eliminate one set of stairs, but seriously.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 12, 2009)

I am tired of NIMBY"S. I think the group of people thinking this way have really hampered growth of rail in this country.


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## p&sr (Mar 12, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Florida isn't that unusual- it still has the most long-distance service of any place in the US.


More than New York City? More than Chicago? We must have a different way of counting Trains...


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## p&sr (Mar 12, 2009)

Steve4031 said:


> I am tired of NIMBY"S.  I think the group of people thinking this way have really hampered growth of rail in this country.


I agree completely. NIMBY's Not Wanted! OUT of My Backyard!


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## PaulM (Mar 12, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> First of all, I find it funny that the purchasing of new equipment at Amtrak is called an "Investment". But it is almost the right height for the P42 locos, so that'll make 'em look nice.


I'm no accountant; but I believe an "investment" is an expenditure for something that produces revenue over a long period, i.e, it not for something that is consumed. Certainly, passenger cars fit this definition, although the "period" may be a bit too long in th case of Amtrak cars.


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## AlanB (Mar 12, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why can't we build a suitable sleeper out of a Surfliner shell? I mean, we'd need to get rid of one of the door pairs and eliminate one set of stairs, but seriously.


I'm pretty sure that we can do just that and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that someplace at Amtrak they have such plans or maybe even Alstom has some plans for it.

However for the moment that isn't where Amtrak is planning to put its new found monies. They are putting those dollars where they need them the most, to beef up the over worked single level sleepers and diners. Maybe in a few years from now if things remain favorable we will be discussing new Western LD cars, but for the moment at least that is not the case.

Hence my point in saying that to shoot down service on the FEC for something in the west IMHO doesn't make sense. We can't easily do anything about the west right now, no matter how much we might like to, as Amtrak has committed this round of funding to the single level fleet.

Perhaps if we were to swap the Capitol from Superliner to single level, which might preclude FEC getting an LD, we could do something out west with the Capitol's Superliner cars. But I'm not sure that's a good trade off either. Especially with Amtrak coming so close to selling out the Florida trains in the sleepers year round. Seems to me that it's best to chase that certain revenue with a third LD train to Florida.


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## AmtrakWPK (Mar 12, 2009)

> But if we have to pick between running the FEC and restoring service to Waldo, Ocala, Wildwood, and Dade City, I pick the latter.


THOSE CITIES/TOWNS *STILL HAVE SERVICE*. OK, it's a bus connection. BUT THEY HAVE SERVICE. Actually I believe the University of Florida (Gainesville) has better service now, because the bus, IIRC, actually stops IN Gainesville, not out of town at Waldo where the Palm/Palmetto used to stop.

The east coast FEC route population DOES NOT have service, either rail OR a bus connection, and it's a larger population base anyway. And, again, the S-Line is going to be handling both S-Line AND A-Line CSX freight when the Orlando corridor commuter rail starts up, which would make CSX unlikely to look favorably on resuming S-Line Amtrak service.


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## Rafi (Mar 12, 2009)

AmtrakWPK said:


> And, again, the S-Line is going to be handling both S-Line AND A-Line CSX freight when the Orlando corridor commuter rail starts up, which would make CSX unlikely to look favorably on resuming S-Line Amtrak service.


Correct. CSX plans to start routing a good chunk of the current A-line traffic over to the S-line when the Orlando commuter train starts running. The common knowledge out there is that CSX will push hard against a reinstatement of S-line passenger service at that point. Not saying we shouldn't have service on that line (it really stuck in my craw when the Palm stopped running that line and we have this piddly spur to Tampa now as a result), but FEC is certainly the lowest hanging fruit right now and is a sure-win for new revenue.

Rafi


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## jis (Mar 12, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Why can't we build a suitable sleeper out of a Surfliner shell? I mean, we'd need to get rid of one of the door pairs and eliminate one set of stairs, but seriously.
> ...


Just a point of clarification. Amtrak will be buying 130 bilevel cars for corridor service, i.e. short distance coach configuration, in addition to the single level cars. However, those are not meant for use in LD trains, though they can be used as needed for short turn cars on LD trains. Also these cars will release certain number of Superliner coaches from short distance service and those can be used for beefing up LD consists. These bi-lelve cars will be Super or Surf-liner like, is what I was told. So my bet is they will be based on Alstom shells, since that is the readily available manufacturing line at present. But they will not provide any means for introducing new LD trains out west. Those if any, will have to be enabled by repair of out of service but available for repair Superliners.



> Hence my point in saying that to shoot down service on the FEC for something in the west IMHO doesn't make sense. We can't easily do anything about the west right now, no matter how much we might like to, as Amtrak has committed this round of funding to the single level fleet.


I agree with you. I think viewing the whole issue as FEC vs Pioneer (or whatever) is false dichotomy. At present focus is on corridor and single level LD. So it is somewhat pointless discussing what could be done out west if single level service is not added.



> Perhaps if we were to swap the Capitol from Superliner to single level, which might preclude FEC getting an LD, we could do something out west with the Capitol's Superliner cars. But I'm not sure that's a good trade off either. Especially with Amtrak coming so close to selling out the Florida trains in the sleepers year round. Seems to me that it's best to chase that certain revenue with a third LD train to Florida.


I don't belive reverting the Cap to single level is on the cards at all.

Indeed additional sleeper service to Florida, even if it is by adding more sleepers to the existing trains is one of the lowest hanging fruits year round. But even better and more lucrative would be an additional trains covering an additional route structure, and FEC is the clear front-runner for that. While I would love to see service restored on the S Line in Florida, I donlt think that will happen any time soon - if ever, since that is now the designated freight line for CSX in Florida, wi th them basically vacating the A Line for Orlando commuter service.


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Mar 13, 2009)

Rafi said:


> AmtrakWPK said:
> 
> 
> > And, again, the S-Line is going to be handling both S-Line AND A-Line CSX freight when the Orlando corridor commuter rail starts up, which would make CSX unlikely to look favorably on resuming S-Line Amtrak service.
> ...



Uh, partially correct on this one guys. CSX has rerouted all freight traffic which has no business in the ORL area over the S-Line for quite some time now. There will be a couple of intermodal trains moved to the S-line after the new facility at WTH opens. Other than that, the OUCX coal train, a Taft-Jax-Waycross mixed manifest freight, the K trains (mostly rock trains between S FL and Cent FL), and the local road switchers will remain. Current operations can and will be rescheduled very easily to fit into the freight operations windows listed allowing existing operational agreements (with the unions) which will not have to be changed or changed very little (in the case of intermodal). So moving a couple of intermodal trains is far from a huge chunk being all of the freight having no business in the area doesn't come through ORL unless of some emergency or closure of the S-line.

As far as Amtrak service is concerned, all of the Amtrak service (with the exception of #92 on this revised schedule) passes through ORL area during the off peak daytime hours (between rush hour) which is how this will have to be maintained. Still Amtrak scheduling in the Northeast and South FL will continue to have some impact on scheduling no matter what. The S-line will also be upgraded with double track in many places in order to handle the growing capacity issues which have been a long standing problem over there anyway. Amtrak has an obligation to restore the former train service on the S-line before starting any other new service (not saying it will happen this way but...). CSX would be open to the Amtrak train returning to the S-line, but to my understanding would rather it traverse the S-line during the daylight hours as CSX currently operates most of the freight over there at night as well. One Amtrak train each direction, the TPIX juice train, and a couple others wouldn't necessarily cause too much of an issue with the MOW, track inspections, etc. Amtrak's business over on the S-line had always been very strong back when there was daylight train service.

In fact daylight service is really the only option in the state of FL. I understand it has to be nighttime somewhere, however, at least one major city in FL winds up being the destination with most of the passengers on the "Silver Services." And because no one wants to be arriving at an awful time of day combined with the fact that FL is a tourist state should make daylight service a no brainer. At one time we had nothing but daylight Amtrak service here in FL on both the A-line and S-line with two trains and both of the splitting at either JAX or Auburndale respectably. IMHO it would be a heck of a lot easier to return to that. That, as one of the others has stated, is where corridor service would make more sense at least on the FEC and the A-line to some extent.

Now as far as revenue, can't argue about the fact that service on the FEC would be the no brainer there. Again it would need to be daylight service as FEC operates most of its traffic at night, too.

OBS gone freight...


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## jphjaxfl (Mar 13, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I am pretty sure I know more about Amtrak route history than you do, since I have schedules from every single year- several from most years.


Hey Man, How would you know that? I was 22 when Amtrak started. I have ridden every route that Amtrak has ever operated. You may have the schedules, but I rode the trains. I also traveled extensively on railroad operated passenger trains and have been on mostly every railroad that operated passengers trains in the 1950s and 1960s. I had my first train ride on the Rocky Mountain Rocket when I was less than a month old. My Dad was an agent for the New York Central in the midwest and we traveled exclusively by train until you couldn't get a train to places we wanted to go to. Do not presume to know something that you know nothing about!


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## AmtrakWPK (Mar 13, 2009)

It's nice to know, "from the horse's mouth", so to speak, that a daytime S-Line run might not face stiff opposition from CSX; Palm/Palmetto ran through there in the middle of the night, hauling U.S. Mail on contract with USPS and as I understand it was terminated when Amtrak decided the mail contract wasn't worth the effort and expense.

A daytime FEC run would both serve a very large unserved market AND would almost certainly be faster JAX-MIA than the current inland route of the Star and Meteor.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 13, 2009)

The Palm was terminated when the Auto Train derailed and caused a shortage of Superliners, which resulted in a shortage of Viewliners when the Cardinal had to revert to single-level status.

I bet you one thing these Viewliners might do is run an overnight train NOL to MIA. That would free up some Superliners for use elsewhere.


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## jis (Mar 13, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I bet you one thing these Viewliners might do is run an overnight train NOL to MIA. That would free up some Superliners for use elsewhere.


That certainly is an interesting and enticing possibility indeed GML. Of course most of the overnight likely will be NOL to JAX. Or did you have a train NOL - MIA via the S-Line in mind, one that misses both JAX and ORL?


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## Amtrak OBS Gone Freight (Mar 13, 2009)

jis said:


> Of course most of the overnight likely will be NOL to JAX. Or did you have a train NOL - MIA via the S-Line in mind, one that misses both JAX and ORL?


I can see that happening (sarcasm). In "theory" there could be a NOL-MIA train that could bypass JAX (being at Baldwin it is possible to head South from the West), but "politically" it will not happen! You can count on that one! Also, JAX is the T&E crew supply point along the route no matter which direction the train is coming from. And lastly, CSX will not want the Amtrak train traversing the S-line too close to the overnight hours. It will need to be placed in a daytime slot for that section of trackage.

OBS gone freight...


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 13, 2009)

jis said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > I bet you one thing these Viewliners might do is run an overnight train NOL to MIA. That would free up some Superliners for use elsewhere.
> ...


The Sunset ran that route in 23 hours. I see no reason why they couldn't do it now. Especially since the trackage is better then ever.


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