# If You Could Initiate One New Amtrak Route..........



## Notelvis (Aug 28, 2012)

Here's Mine -

A new train operating on Norfolk Southern trackage Asheville, NC - Salisbury, NC - Charlotte, NC - Columbia, SC connecting to/from the Silver Star for Florida....... and yes, in my dreams this train would carry a through sleeping car.

Why? It's a train that I would use two or three times a year. Make the family trip to visit the mother-in-law in greater Orlando more palatable.

Yes - I'm aware that back in the glory days Southern's Skyland Special performed this function via Saluda Mountain and Spartanburg, SC..... I don't propose that routing as the Saluda Mountain route is railbanked out-of-service. Besides though, the more circuitous route would provide overnight service between Charlotte, North Carolina's largest city and Florida.

OK........ that's the route from my wish list..... What others are out there.


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## NY Penn (Aug 28, 2012)

The usual suggestions are the Pioneer, Desert Wind, Floridian, or Midwest Auto Train.

Not that any of those are very practical.


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## Notelvis (Aug 28, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> The usual suggestions are the Pioneer, Desert Wind, Floridian, or Midwest Auto Train.
> 
> Not that any of those are very practical.


Of these, my 'one that got away' was the Desert Wind. Managed to ride the others including the Midwest Auto Train if you count my trip on the Floridian in the 1970's when it was combined with the original Auto-Train between Louisville and Sanford!


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## Tumbleweed (Aug 28, 2012)

The old Northern Pacific North Coast Limited......nostalgia...


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## Tracktwentynine (Aug 28, 2012)

With a system so starved of routes, it's hard to narrow it down to just one.

For the purposes of network connectivity, I'd prioritize these routes:


_Sunset East_: New Orleans - Mobile - Jacksonville
Chicago - Nashville - Atlanta - Florida
_Pioneer_: Seattle - Portland - Boise - Ogden - Cheyenne - Denver
_Desert Wind_: Los Angeles - Las Vegas - Salt Lake City


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## JayPea (Aug 28, 2012)

Tumbleweed said:


> The old Northern Pacific North Coast Limited......nostalgia...



I agree with this choice, especially if it were scheduled so that it served Spokane during daylight hours. Who cares if it then wouldn't make practical connections in Seattle or Chicago??? I'm selfish!!!!!


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## WICT106 (Aug 28, 2012)

Tracktwentynine said:


> With a system so starved of routes, it's hard to narrow it down to just one.


Concur. I would add the _Varsity,_ or the _Winnipeg Limited,_ or perhaps the _Duluth-Superior Limited._ I would also vote for a Chicago - Florida train, perhaps the _Royal Palm,_ (or whatever the train service was that went between Chicago & Florida via Cincinnati ).

These choices are because these would be the routes I would be most likely to use. Any service through Madison, WI, would be an improvement over what we have right now. We have no service, and it is tough to advocate for service when the overwhelming majority of the population has never been aboard a train, and sees no value to train service.


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## afigg (Aug 28, 2012)

Notelvis said:


> Here's Mine -
> 
> A new train operating on Norfolk Southern trackage Asheville, NC - Salisbury, NC - Charlotte, NC - Columbia, SC connecting to/from the Silver Star for Florida....... and yes, in my dreams this train would carry a through sleeping car.


If there was a viable Charlotte NC to Columbia SC passenger rail connection, Amtrak would likely re-route the Silver Star along the entire Piedmont route to Charlotte and then south to Columbia. This was briefly discussed in last year's Product Improvement Plan report for the Silver Star, but the report states that "there is no direct connection between NSs Charlotte-to-Columbia rail line over which the train would be rerouted and the CSX rail line that serves Amtraks Columbia station, and significant investments would be required for equipment and other capital costs."

If SC were to get behind a Columbia to Charlotte passenger rail service and fund the track work, such a re-route would be possible. But I get the impression that out all of the southern states, SC - at the state level - may be the last to get serious about passenger rail.

However, the plans for the new Raleigh train station include a 800' long high level platform between 2 tracks, both side tracks out of the way of freight traffic. When NC expands to 4 daily Piedmonts, that should provide the flexibility to schedule Piedmonts to meet up with the Star going to and coming from Florida with a cross-platform transfer both ways. The Silver Star schedule times in Raleigh work pretty well for this. Or people could connect in Cary if they wanted to wait in the station. Would not provide service to Florida from Asheville, but it would from Charlotte and Salisbury.

As for one new Amtrak route, I don't have a single one to pick. There are so many holes in Amtrak national coverage or routes with slow and poor service, where does one begin? If there was funding to establish one new route, it should be one that provides the best chance for additional growth and expansion beyond the initial new route. A priority ranking guideline might be service to cities that are adding local rail transit systems.


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 28, 2012)

D)ZZZ) All of the above


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## CHamilton (Aug 28, 2012)

afigg said:


> 1346186477[/url]' post='390181']As for one new Amtrak route, I don't have a single one to pick. There are so many holes in Amtrak national coverage or routes with slow and poor service, where does one begin?


afigg is so right. Until we have a Federal government that invests in a truly national rail system like this one, Amtrak will never really serve the United States. If a (____) administration hadn't created the Interstate Highway System, our roads today would be as scanty as our passenger rail network. So although it's important to lobby our state and local governments to provide rail service, a real national network won't happen until it becomes a national priority.


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## guest (Aug 28, 2012)

Newport News - Richmond - Charlottesville - Lynchburg - Roanoke - Knoxville - Nashville - Memphis


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## Gratt (Aug 28, 2012)

Tracktwentynine said:


> With a system so starved of routes, it's hard to narrow it down to just one.
> 
> For the purposes of network connectivity, I'd prioritize these routes:
> 
> ...



I would also add a route that would run north/South connecting Denver with Texas allowing connections between the CZ SWC and TE that are not on the west coast or Chicago.


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## me_little_me (Aug 28, 2012)

Tracktwentynine said:


> With a system so starved of routes, it's hard to narrow it down to just one.
> 
> For the purposes of network connectivity, I'd prioritize these routes:
> 
> ...


I'd vote #2 as #1 and if it could be combined with an auto-train, that would be better yet.


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## cirdan (Aug 28, 2012)

I'd be for an extension of the Heartland Flyer down to Houston and maybe on to Galveston, and also Northwards at the other end.


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## Acela150 (Aug 28, 2012)

Spirit of St. Louis/National Limited or the River Cities..

Both equally good routes. My Dad always tells me stories about them.


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## John Bredin (Aug 28, 2012)

A daytime multi-train corridor service Chicago-Toledo-Cleveland, splitting there to serve Buffalo and Pittsburgh. However, realizing that would probably require a pro-rail state government in Ohio:

A daytime multi-train corridor service Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison-Twin Cities. It could even use the Hiawatha name and CHI-MKE schedule slots. :lol: Yes, I realize that would also require state support, but IMHO the prospect of Minnesota and Illinois ponying up for increased CHI-MSP service (and ignoring or working around Wisconsin's almost-certain non-contribution) is somewhat more likely than Ohio doing so. :blink:

Yes, I live just outside of Chicago, how did you guess? :giggle:


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## TimePeace (Aug 28, 2012)

me_little_me said:


> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> > With a system so starved of routes, it's hard to narrow it down to just one.
> ...


I have no objection to the existing auto-train - but I'd hate to see another LD train available only to people who were transporting their car someplace. To me, the whole point of train travel is to avoid using a car.

Now, if they'd have a passenger train with coach seats and roomettes, I would not mind if they had car carriers as well...


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 28, 2012)

The first one is easy, the other ones are not. But since you ask for only one, I would say the New Royal Palm CHI-IND-CIN-ATL-JAX-ORL-MIA.


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## Ziv (Aug 28, 2012)

I think that the _Pioneer_: Seattle - Portland - Boise - Ogden - Cheyenne - Denver plus going through to Houston via Colorado Springs, Amarillo, Lubbock, Killeen and College Station would cover the most territory, and would bring in cities (that either had never had Amtrak service or lost that service) with a total population of more than 2,000,000, plus all the surrounding countryside. I am not sure that the tracks are in place to add College Station, but a Pioneer that covered nearly 2500 miles in two days covering the US in SE/NW direction that is so lacking... Well it would be a world class train for scenery! A good mix of mountains, desert, plains and everything in between.

Having a re-furbed Budd Car to connect Ogden to Salt Lake City would be like getting biscuits with your beer! I imagine Amtrak would use buses since they may be cheaper in the short term, though. Or is there commuter rail already on that stretch?


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## henryj (Aug 28, 2012)

The most obvious missing link is Texas to Colorado, the most visited state by Texans. Houston, DFW, Amarillo, up the front range to Denver. Other than that all of the above including extending the Heartland Flyer south to Houston and North to Kansas City and MSP.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 28, 2012)

henryj said:


> The most obvious missing link is Texas to Colorado, the most visited state by Texans. Houston, DFW, Amarillo, up the front range to Denver. Other than that all of the above including extending the Heartland Flyer south to Houston and North to Kansas City and MSP.


See, that's where things get hard. I can't choose between PDX-SLC, LAX-SLC, DEN-HOU, and DEN-ABQ for my second place.


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## johnny.menhennet (Aug 28, 2012)

Ziv said:


> I think that the _Pioneer_: Seattle - Portland - Boise - Ogden - Cheyenne - Denver plus going through to Houston via Colorado Springs, Amarillo, Lubbock, Killeen and College Station would cover the most territory, and would bring in cities (that either had never had Amtrak service or lost that service) with a total population of more than 2,000,000, plus all the surrounding countryside. I am not sure that the tracks are in place to add College Station, but a Pioneer that covered nearly 2500 miles in two days covering the US in SE/NW direction that is so lacking... Well it would be a world class train for scenery! A good mix of mountains, desert, plains and everything in between.
> 
> Having a re-furbed Budd Car to connect Ogden to Salt Lake City would be like getting biscuits with your beer! I imagine Amtrak would use buses since they may be cheaper in the short term, though. Or is there commuter rail already on that stretch?


Yep mine is very similar. For connectivity purposes, and because I would love the scenery that currently can't be viewed, I would choose a route that goes Seattle-Spokane-Missoula-Helena-Laurel (motorcoach for Billings) - Wind River Canyon - Cheyenne - Denver - Trinidad - Amarillo - Wichita Falls - Fort Worth - Dallas - Houston - New Orleans - Mobile - Jacksonville - Miami (either FEC or Orlando, I don't have a preference). I would go past just to allow the benefit of Sunset East.


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## Amtrak George (Aug 28, 2012)

I would reinstate New Orleans to Orlando, but not as part of the Sunset: a separate train overnight between these cities (route is too slow for an all-day train).

It could connect with the City of New Orleans but several hours should be allowed in New Orleans for this connection to avoid affecting either train's on time performance. This extra cushion for connections would be especially important on the east/northbound direction so that the CONO doesn't start its journey running late.

The new train could be called the Gulf Wind in honor of the old L&N/SAL train on this route.


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## Amtrak George (Aug 28, 2012)

Oops, I meant the cushion to describe the WESTBOUND/Northbound connection


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## Palmland (Aug 28, 2012)

Notelvis, your selection certainly has appeal to me as a resident of SC, near Columbia. A train from Asheville to FL might be a stretch, but I think it could really be two trains: one that NC DOT is trying to get going - from Asheville to Charlotte via Salisbury; and a second one from Charlotte to FL that could well be a rerouted Silver Star. It baffles me why Amtrak doesn't pursue this. Certainly ridership from Charlotte to FL would be much greater than via the metropolises of Southern Pines, Hamlet, and my Camden.

I think the issue is not so much the trackage in Columbia, as it is the station. There is a very good head on signaled connection between the NS and CSX in downtown Columbia. While it is true that getting to the current station would require a backup move of a mile or two (less than Tampa), it is on an active mainline. So maybe the answer is move the station. As it happens the former Southern station is ideally located for that and is adjacent to the Univ. of SC and its 30,000 students and a couple blocks from the statehouse and nearby hotels/restaurants.

The station still stands and is beautifully restored - as an excellent California Dreamin' restaurant. But it is a 3 story building on a hill with the entrance on the second floor. Perhaps the portion of the building on the ground floor and trackside could be converted into a station. If not, there appears to be vacant land north of the station.

This route certainly has my vote (along with a through sleeper from Asheville).


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## AlanB (Aug 28, 2012)

Ziv said:


> Having a re-furbed Budd Car to connect Ogden to Salt Lake City would be like getting biscuits with your beer! I imagine Amtrak would use buses since they may be cheaper in the short term, though. Or is there commuter rail already on that stretch?


UTA's Frontrunner commuter trains already connect Ogden to Salt Lake City, and even on to Provo come later this year.


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## Ziv (Aug 28, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> > I think that the _Pioneer_: Seattle - Portland - Boise - Ogden - Cheyenne - Denver plus going through to Houston via Colorado Springs, Amarillo, Lubbock, Killeen and College Station would cover the most territory, and would bring in cities (that either had never had Amtrak service or lost that service) with a total population of more than 2,000,000, plus all the surrounding countryside. I am not sure that the tracks are in place to add College Station, but a Pioneer that covered nearly 2500 miles in two days covering the US in SE/NW direction that is so lacking... Well it would be a world class train for scenery! A good mix of mountains, desert, plains and everything in between.
> ...


Johnny, as a native Montanan, I see certain details of your route that are pretty cool! Missoula to Helena to Livingston is one of the more scenic routes of the state. I will abandon Pocatello to hang out with my friends in Missoula and Helena! Sorry Ogden! I am not sure how easy it would be to get around all the coal trains without delays, but that would be a great route!


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## Railroad Bill (Aug 28, 2012)

An Amtrak route from Detroit/Toledo to Cincinnati--I-75 Corridor through KY and TN to Atlanta and south to Florida. 

If the track systems were still available, this route would have a large ridership. (Especially if there were connections to Cardinal, Crescent, etc. along the way.


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## Agent (Aug 28, 2012)

I think I would have a train between the Twin Cities and Kansas City via Des Moines.


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## railiner (Aug 28, 2012)

John Bredin said:


> A daytime multi-train corridor service Chicago-Toledo-Cleveland, splitting there to serve Buffalo and Pittsburgh. However, realizing that would probably require a pro-rail state government in Ohio:
> 
> A daytime multi-train corridor service Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison-Twin Cities. It could even use the Hiawatha name and CHI-MKE schedule slots. :lol: Yes, I realize that would also require state support, but IMHO the prospect of Minnesota and Illinois ponying up for increased CHI-MSP service (and ignoring or working around Wisconsin's almost-certain non-contribution) is somewhat more likely than Ohio doing so. :blink:
> 
> Yes, I live just outside of Chicago, how did you guess? :giggle:


I find this suggestion the most practical. While it would be nice to bring back many of those long distance routes others have mentioned, I think this is more in line with what the future of Amtrak and rail travel will develope.

Personally, I favor a strong multi-train Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati corridor, but it will be difficult to accomplish due to the lack of political will. At least for now.....hopefully things will change in the near future.


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## NY Penn (Aug 28, 2012)

It's possible for a train to serve the PDX-DEN-HOU line, with almost perfect scheduling for the major cities and markets. Although the schedule even connects with the CZ, it still wouldn't be feasible economically, rendering this a moot point.

Schedule:



Spoiler



Here's an approximate schedule I posted here quite a while ago for a theoretical PDX-DEN-HOU _Pioneer_, based on the 1997 timetable, Google Maps, and a US Rail Atlas:

S-B........N-B.......Station

9 AM........9 PM.....Portland, OR

1 PM........6 PM......Pendleton, OR

9 PM.......10 AM.....Boise, ID

4 AM........3 AM......Ogden, UT

3 PM........5 PM......Cheyenne, WY

8 PM........9 AM.....Denver, CO

1 AM........4 AM......Colorado Springs, CO

5 AM.......12 AM......Trinidad, CO

10 AM......5 PM......Amarillo, TX

6 PM........9 AM.....Wichita Falls, TX

9 PM.......6 AM......Fort Worth

11 PM.....5 AM......Dallas

7 AM.......9 PM.....Houston



Another possibility is the Floridian. Anybody notice that although Amtrak's network has three main N-S corridors, there are no 'diagonal' ones? So two of the biggest gaps in the system are the Pioneer to TX and the Floridian/Midwest AT.


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## amtkstn (Aug 28, 2012)

Bring back the Texas chief/lone star.


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## johnny.menhennet (Aug 28, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> It's possible for a train to serve the PDX-DEN-HOU line, with almost perfect scheduling for the major cities and markets. Although the schedule even connects with the CZ, it still wouldn't be feasible economically, rendering this a moot point.
> 
> Schedule:
> 
> ...


Even with extensive padding, I'm not quite with you on the 5-hours-70-miles DEN-Colorado Springs, 2-hours-30-miles FTW-DAL, as well as the 5-hour-100-mile Denver - Cheyenne and the Dallas Houston times as well. Just in general, it doesn't need to take 70 hours to go this route. If you wanted service along the Pioneer route north of Ogden, I have a good schedule provided that would serve as a second frequency to the CS between LAX and PDX, conveniently serving LAX as well. Would take a lot of strain off the CS. I have the schedule prepared and ready but it's on my laptop at my mom's. I'll link it tomorrow. That is a good route though. But I think going via Montana and the Wind River Canyon there would be more political support as well because except for the last 15 miles into Billings, it gives you the intra-state service Montana wants via the NP line.


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## NY Penn (Aug 28, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> > Here's an approximate schedule I posted here quite a while ago for a theoretical PDX-DEN-HOU _Pioneer_, based on the 1997 timetable, Google Maps, and a US Rail Atlas:
> ...


The route via MT would require the train to take a ridiculously circuitous route via Boise or go via SPK, which is redundant to the EB. The areas of MT you mention would be better served by an NCH in my opinion.

Here's a better schedule. IIRC those ridiculous times are errors from editing the schedule, or layovers.

Here's a corrected version. The DAL-HOU times appear about right, given that it's around the same distance as DAL-SAS, which is 7 hours. The two hours for FTW-DAL is similar to the TE schedule and are mostly padding. This schedule corrected the rest of what you mentioned and introduced, in typical Amtrak fashion, lots of padding towards the end of the route.



Spoiler



S-B........N-B.......Station

9 AM........8 PM.....Portland, OR

1 PM........5 PM......Pendleton, OR

9 PM.......7 AM.....Boise, ID

4 AM........1 AM......Ogden, UT

3 PM........12 PM......Cheyenne, WY

5 PM........9 AM.....Denver, CO

8 PM........7 AM.....Denver, CO

1 AM........4 AM......Colorado Springs, CO

5 AM.......12 AM......Trinidad, CO

10 AM......5 PM......Amarillo, TX

6 PM........9 AM.....Wichita Falls, TX

9 PM.......6 AM......Fort Worth

11 PM.....5 AM......Dallas

7 AM.......9 PM.....Houston



As for the alternative for the CS, wouldn't that be better served by a longer CS or even a revived Desert Wind split at SLC? Nobody would ride the Pioneer as a CS alternative if it went via SLC, so it doesn't have to be a direct train.

Here's the link to the US Rail Atlas.


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## Ziv (Aug 28, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > NY Penn said:
> ...


NY PENN, am I reading your schedule right? I have it taking 70 hours or almost 3 days to do from Portland to Houston. That is less than 2300 miles, so you are talking about an average speed of around 33 mph. I worried about the coal trains slowing the route if it went through Wyoming, but the EB averages 50 mph even with the heavily padded schedule, and the CZ does 55 mph on average. Why would the Pioneer do 33 mph?


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## NY Penn (Aug 28, 2012)

Wow, you're right. According to the 1992 schedule, the Pioneer averaged 49mph PDX-DEN, while my schedule averages 45mph. That's a bit less than optimal, but IMHO shouldn't be sacrificed to preserve connections with the CZ in Denver without a four-hour layover there like the Pioneer had.

On the southern segment, however, the average speed does turn out to be 33 mph. I apparently included numerous layovers SB and then forgot to remove them when I changed the schedule.

Here's the new version.



Spoiler



S-B........N-B.......Station

9 AM........8 PM.......Portland, OR

1 PM........5 PM......Pendleton, OR

9 PM.......7 AM........Boise, ID

4 AM........1 AM......Ogden, UT

3 PM........12 PM...Cheyenne, WY

5 PM........9 AM......Denver, CO

8 PM........7 AM......Denver, CO

9 PM........6 AM......Colorado Springs, CO

11 PM.......4 AM.....Trinidad, CO

4 AM.......11 PM.....Amarillo, TX

9 AM........6 PM......Wichita Falls, TX

11 AM.......4 PM.....Fort Worth

12 PM.....3 PM......Dallas

7 PM.......7 AM.......Houston


This schedule gets the north section to 45mph and the south section to 46mph. Some more time could be trimmed out of the schedule, but this is better.


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## xyzzy (Aug 28, 2012)

afigg said:


> If there was a viable Charlotte NC to Columbia SC passenger rail connection, Amtrak would likely re-route the Silver Star along the entire Piedmont route to Charlotte and then south to Columbia. This was briefly discussed in last year's Product Improvement Plan report for the Silver Star, but the report states that "there is no direct connection between NS’s Charlotte-to-Columbia rail line over which the train would be rerouted and the CSX rail line that serves Amtrak’s Columbia station, and significant investments would be required for equipment and other capital costs."


Speculation that I don't understand. Raleigh-Charlotte-Columbia is 90 miles longer than Raleigh-Hamlet-Columbia. Yes, much of the track Raleigh-Hamlet-Columbia is 60 mph and bumpy. But you're still going to get over the road faster on the ex-SAL than via Charlotte. Charlotte-Columbia is even slower (50 mph), and somebody would have to spend money to increase speeds.

Charlotte-NEC passengers already have trains to choose from; Charlotte-Florida passengers can connect in Cary or Raleigh.

As far as I know, Amtrak and CSX have a status quo agreement to maintain Raleigh-Hamlet-Columbia at FRA Class 3 with signals indefinitely. So what's the point? Closing the stations at Southern Pines, Hamlet, and Camden?


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## Notelvis (Aug 28, 2012)

Agent said:


> I think I would have a train between the Twin Cities and Kansas City via Des Moines.


I believe that this would be my second choice for adding 'just one route'. A day train Twin Cities - Kansas City would tap a huge potential market offering connections to/from points west on both the California Zephyr and Southwest Chief. Imagine St. Paul to Denver or Albuquerque qithout having to go through Chicago.

Yes - I'd love to see the Pioneer or Desert Wind or Sunset Limited East or Broadway Limited return to the timetables. For the purpose of this thread I was primarily looking for favorite fantasy train serving city pairs where passenger service had ended before Amtrak arrived...... though I wasn't clear in stating that.

Palmland - INTERESTING..... why had I never thought of just relocating the station nearer the junction as opposed to locating funding for major trackwork in Columbia.

Finally - for a rerouted Silver Star, I find it unlikely now that the state of North Carolina would be supportive of this given the major station renovation undertaken in Hamlet and, to a lesser degree, Southern Pines. I think that the NCDOT.....arguably Amtrak's best state partner in the south..... has a vested interest in keeping the train on what remains of the original Seaboard main.


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## henryj (Aug 28, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> Wow, you're right. According to the 1992 schedule, the Pioneer averaged 49mph PDX-DEN, while my schedule averages 45mph. That's a bit less than optimal, but IMHO shouldn't be sacrificed to preserve connections with the CZ in Denver without a four-hour layover there like the Pioneer had.
> 
> On the southern segment, however, the average speed does turn out to be 33 mph. I apparently included numerous layovers SB and then forgot to remove them when I changed the schedule.
> 
> This schedule gets the north section to 45mph and the south section to 46mph. Some more time could be trimmed out of the schedule, but this is better.


I worked up a schedule for a 'Texas Pioneer' a long time ago that is a little different. You allow too much time between Dallas and Houston. Four or five hours is plenty. Or you could use the former Lone Star route Houston to Fort Worth which was around 6 hours. You are running a bit fast between Denver and Amarillo. I also connected with the CZ in Denver, the Eagle and Heartland Flyer in Ft Worth and sent the HF on up to KC and MSP. In other words everything connected with everything. Here it is if you can read it. I left out all the connecting trains as too complicated to put on here. It's on Word and also Excel if you want all the details. Of course Amtrak has no equipment nor any orders for more so all this is just for fun.

TEXAS PIONEER

Texas Texas

Pioneer Pioneer

lv	VANCOUVER BC	arr	10:45 PM

7:30 AM	lv	SEATTLE	arr	6:20 PM

11:00 AM	arr	PORTLAND	lv	2:50 PM

11:30 AM	lv	PORTLAND(PT)	arr	1:00 PM

10:55 PM	arr	BOISE	lv	2:40 AM

11:00 PM	lv	BOISE	arr	2:35 AM

1:20 AM	arr	SHOSHONE(MT)	lv	12:40 AM

11:00 PM	lv	SUN VALLEY	arr	3:00 AM

1:00 AM	arr	SHOSHONE	lv	1:00 AM

1:25 AM	lv	SHOSHONE	arr	12:35 AM

3:10 AM	arr	POCATELLO	lv	10:50 PM

12:00 AM	lv	WEST YELLOWSTONE	arr	2:00 AM

3:00 AM	arr	POCATELLO	lv	11:00 PM

3:25 AM	lv	POCATELLO	arr	10:35 PM

6:10 AM	arr	OGDEN	lv	7:50 PM

6:30 AM	lv	OGDEN	arr	7:30 PM

10:20 AM	arr	GREEN RIVER	lv	3:40 PM

10:25 AM	lv	GREEN RIVER	arr	3:35 PM

3:55 PM	arr	CHEYENNE(BOWIE)	lv	10:05 AM

4:00 PM	lv	CHEYENNE(BOWIE)	arr	10:00 AM

6:00 PM	arr	DENVER	lv	8:15 AM

6:45 PM	lv	DENVER	arr	7:30 AM

8:30 PM	arr	COLORADO SPRINGS	lv	5:45 AM

8:45 PM	lv	COLORADO SPRINGS	arr	5:30 AM

10:00 PM	lv	PUEBLO	lv	4:30 AM

6:00 AM	arr	AMARILLO	lv	9:45 PM

6:30 AM	lv	AMARILLO	arr	9:15 PM

1:30 PM	arr	FT WORTH	lv	3:00 PM

2:00 PM	lv	FT WORTH	arr	2:30 PM

3:00 PM	arr	DALLAS	lv	1:30 PM

3:30 PM	lv	DALLAS	arr	1:00 PM

4:10 PM	lv	WAXAHACHIE	lv	12:20 PM

4:40 PM	lv	CORSICANA	lv	11:50 AM

5:11 PM	lv	TEAGUE	lv	11:19 AM

5:58 PM	lv	N. ZULCH	lv	10:31 AM

7:45 PM	arr	HOUSTON	lv	8:45 AM


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 28, 2012)

Id have to go with a CHI to Florida Train through the South but not an AutoTrain! Think it would do huge business, especially in the Winter!! The various Texas proposals I also agree with, especially extending the Heartland Flyer and Trains through Colorado! Also think a Train to Vegas would be a huge hit if done right, but have exceeded my Quota of one, wishful thinking tends to do that!! <_<


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## Texan Eagle (Aug 28, 2012)

Nobody mentioned a west-to-east link bypassing Chicago? Why should folks traveling from south to south, like Los Angeles to Atlanta or Florida have to be routed via Chicago. If I could tell Amtrak to start one new route, I'd suggest something like Dallas-Atlanta, connecting to Texas Eagle and Heartland Flyer in the west and Crescent in the east.


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## afigg (Aug 28, 2012)

xyzzy said:


> Speculation that I don't understand. Raleigh-Charlotte-Columbia is 90 miles longer than Raleigh-Hamlet-Columbia. Yes, much of the track Raleigh-Hamlet-Columbia is 60 mph and bumpy. But you're still going to get over the road faster on the ex-SAL than via Charlotte. Charlotte-Columbia is even slower (50 mph), and somebody would have to spend money to increase speeds.
> 
> Charlotte-NEC passengers already have trains to choose from; Charlotte-Florida passengers can connect in Cary or Raleigh.
> 
> As far as I know, Amtrak and CSX have a status quo agreement to maintain Raleigh-Hamlet-Columbia at FRA Class 3 with signals indefinitely. So what's the point? Closing the stations at Southern Pines, Hamlet, and Camden?


Direct service with the Silver Star to Charlotte and Greensboro, which are much bigger population centers than Southern Pines and Hamlet NC. Southern Pines had 7,234 passengers in FY11 and Hamlet 4,820. Not all that busy. Greensboro to Charlotte will be getting fully double tracked along with other improvements to the Piedmont corridor with the $546 million in HSIPR grants that NC received. Some temptation to take advantage of those improvements.

But unless the Charlotte to Columbia route is improved with better connections, the Silver Star is not going to be re-routed through Charlotte. NC could always approach SC about a daytime Raleigh to Columbia corridor train to maintain service over that route if the Star were to someday shift.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 28, 2012)

Texan Eagle said:


> Nobody mentioned a west-to-east link bypassing Chicago? Why should folks traveling from south to south, like Los Angeles to Atlanta or Florida have to be routed via Chicago. If I could tell Amtrak to start one new route, I'd suggest something like Dallas-Atlanta, connecting to Texas Eagle and Heartland Flyer in the west and Crescent in the east.


Think that as was said, the restart of a National Ltd. via STL with a Connection from Denver and Kansas City would fill this bill! Back in the day even the riders of the crack Trains from NYC (the 20th Century Ltd. and the Broadway Ltd.) had to change in CHI for Trains such as the Super Chief, various Zephyrs etc.)


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## Shortline (Aug 28, 2012)

henryj said:


> 1346193982[/url]' post='390229']The most obvious missing link is Texas to Colorado, the most visited state by Texans. Houston, DFW, Amarillo, up the front range to Denver. Other than that all of the above including extending the Heartland Flyer south to Houston and North to Kansas City and MSP.


That. Would love to use the train for OKC-KC. I make that drive WAY too often for work. It's too far to enjoy the drive, too close to justify a flight. Plus, it might then be possible to connect to a Westbound train. (not sure, but right now if I want to go OKC-SEA its the Sunset or nothing. Would prefer to go up to a connection with the CZ, or Builder in CHI.

Also, would be nice to be able to go from the mid-South West to FL without having to cross cross the country to Chicago and Washington.....our trip to Miami would take 23 hours to drive. Takes 4 days 3 nights by train. I guess you could say we're going for the experience, rather than convenience!


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## NY Penn (Aug 28, 2012)

Here's something that's actually practical: the _Crescent Star_ (NYP-Meridian-Dallas), split from Crescent at Meridian.

That would be the Chicago bypass and also give new life to an underused part of the route.

That should be a PRIIA study.


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## BNSFboy (Aug 29, 2012)

A Dallas to Denver connecting route via Amarillo, La Junta on to Denver. The route was considered but never operated but was dubbed the Caprock Express.


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## Anderson (Aug 29, 2012)

Ziv said:


> I think that the _Pioneer_: Seattle - Portland - Boise - Ogden - Cheyenne - Denver plus going through to Houston via Colorado Springs, Amarillo, Lubbock, Killeen and College Station would cover the most territory, and would bring in cities (that either had never had Amtrak service or lost that service) with a total population of more than 2,000,000, plus all the surrounding countryside. I am not sure that the tracks are in place to add College Station, but a Pioneer that covered nearly 2500 miles in two days covering the US in SE/NW direction that is so lacking... Well it would be a world class train for scenery! A good mix of mountains, desert, plains and everything in between.
> 
> Having a re-furbed Budd Car to connect Ogden to Salt Lake City would be like getting biscuits with your beer! I imagine Amtrak would use buses since they may be cheaper in the short term, though. Or is there commuter rail already on that stretch?


FrontRunner is supposed to cover that stretch at some point, though I can't recall the timeframe on that.

For me, the question is a bit more complex as it comes down to a question of whether I more or less have to "make do" with existing track conditions (notwithstanding limited upgrades to allow passenger train use) or whether substantial upgrades are possible as part of a "package deal". Likewise, I'm excluding added frequencies on existing routes from my list for the most part; do note that I consider a sleeper train of some sort to be materially different from a daytime corridor train.

If I'm stuck with as-is tracks and we exclude already-in-process trains, I would probably go for one of the following:

-Overnight SoCal-Bay Area service a la the Lark or the Spirit of California.

-A Piedmont Limited revival to offer daylight service from Atlanta to the Northeast.

-The Montrealer.

-An overnight train on the FEC/through Florida (be it a Palmetto extension or a separate operation).

-Corridor service on the Front Range.

In general, the emphasis is on overnight trains between major cities...preferably with slightly-better-than-Amcafe OBS.

If I can get a large slab of track improvements to go with the deal, my first instinct is to force some sort of rail connection between LA and the Bay Area, even if it has to go through Techiapi. This is a bit of a copout because of CAHSR, but it's definitely #1. Excluding that, though, I would probably go for either a set of through cars on the Cardinal to link Hampton Roads on one side and STL/KCY on the other without having to go through Chicago. After that, my big item would be extending the FEC's passenger network beyond JAX, ideally with a decently-timed connecting service to Atlanta and to Savannah on the one side, and to Naples, FL from Tampa on the other.


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## xyzzy (Aug 29, 2012)

afigg said:


> Direct service with the Silver Star to Charlotte and Greensboro, which are much bigger population centers than Southern Pines and Hamlet NC.


Charlotte and Greensboro already have two trains to/from New York. They don't need a third, especially since the northbound Star would pass through Charlotte and Greensboro about an hour before 80 does.


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## trainviews (Aug 29, 2012)

While new LD's would be nice to have I'm definately going to go with a corridor train, preferably with multiple frequencies, which I think will provide daily transportation opportunities to much more people. I also don't think overnight trains should be the first frequency. They provide awful times for intermediate markets and they are inherently expensive to run as labor costs rise significantly.

If HSR is part of this survey, acutally gettng the California project finished will be at the top of my list. LA to Bay Area is an obvious alignment with a perfect distance and it is possible to build because of the vast rural stretches in between. And if/when finished it is going to change the paradigm for train travel in America... :wub:

But for conventional trains I agree with Henry and others that Texas is arguably the most underserved region in the country. A Dallas-Houston (-Galveston) corridor tops my list, and getting it going at conventional speed is much more important than a multi decade, costly and politically controversial HSR project. If the first one is a succes the other will come later.

A close second will be anything Atlanta-based (for much the same reasons - underserved large population centre and reasonable corridor distances to other centers). A day train to Charlotte.-Washington and maybe NYP should probably be the first, but almost any direction is feasible.

And if I have to point to a desired long distance train I'm going to combine the two and go for the Crescent split at Meridien, so you get a NYP-Atlanta-Birmingham-Meridien-Jackson-Shreveport-Dallas train. It is probably also the LD that can be done for the lowest cost.


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## Beth (Aug 29, 2012)

I'd like to see a route through South Dakota...maybe starting in Minneapolis (or Chicago) and heading down through South Dakota, Montana, southern Idaho, and probably ending up in Portland. On a side note, does anyone know why Amtrak does not currently serve South Dakota?


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## Ispolkom (Aug 29, 2012)

Beth said:


> does anyone know why Amtrak does not currently serve South Dakota?


Amtrak never served South Dakota. The only reason North Dakota gets a train is that it's on the BNSF main line between the Twin Cities and Seattle. The only transcontinental route that crossed South Dakota was the Milwaukee Road's Pacific Extension, which was on its last legs when Amtrak started, and was abandoned in large part soon after.


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## DivMiler (Aug 29, 2012)

North from Baltimore to Harrisburg and into New York State.


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## henryj (Aug 29, 2012)

NY Penn said:


> Here's something that's actually practical: the _Crescent Star_ (NYP-Meridian-Dallas), split from Crescent at Meridian.
> 
> That would be the Chicago bypass and also give new life to an underused part of the route.
> 
> That should be a PRIIA study.


I have always thought the Meridian connection was a boondoggle. The schedule doesn't work and Meridian is a little town in the middle of nowhere. A better option is to include an Eagle connection from Little Rock to Memphis which connects with the CONO which brings cars down from Chicago for Florida. The combined train then goes to Florida via Birmingham and Atlanta and connects with the Silver Star. It also conveniently connects with the Crescent in Atlanta to DC and New York. It would be a recreation of the Eagle to Memphis and the KC-Florida Special with a Chicago connection. It covers a lot of options by giving Chicago a direct connection to Florida and DFW a through train to Florida with an optional connection to DC and NY. It boosts ridership on the Eagle and the CONO and gives Atlanta a north-south connection.

SOUTHERNER

Mls.

8:00 PM	0.0	lv	CHICAGO CT)	arr	9:00 AM

6:27 AM	528.0	arr	MEMPHIS	lv	10:40 PM

3:40 PM	0.0	lv	DALLAS	arr	11:30 AM

11:39 PM	357.0	arr	LITTLE ROCK	lv	3:10 AM

2:30 AM 0.0	lv	LITTLE ROCK	arr 12:00 AM

6:30 AM 149.0	arr	MEMPHIS	lv 8:00 PM

7:30 AM 0.0	lv	MEMPHIS	arr 7:00 PM

2:00 PM 253.0	arr	BIRMINGHAM	lv 12:30 PM

2:19 PM 253.0	lv	BIRMINGHAM(CT)	arr 12:15 PM

7:30 PM 417.0	arr	ATLANTA(ET)	lv 9:00 AM

7:00 AM	0.0	lv	NEW ORLEANS	arr	7:32 PM

2:15 PM	354.0	arr	BIRMINGHAM	lv	12:00 PM

2:24 PM	354.0	lv	BIRMINGHAM(CT)	arr	11:50 AM

7:35 PM	518.0	arr	ATLANTA(ET)	lv	8:38 AM

8:04 PM	518.0	lv	ATLANTA	arr	8:13 AM

9:53 AM	1152.0	arr	WASHINGTON DC	lv	6:30 PM

1:46 PM	1377.0	arr	NEW YORK	lv	2:15 PM

8:30 PM 0.0	lv	ATLANTA	arr 8:00 AM

6:00 AM 349.0	arr	JACKSONVILLE	lv 11:00 PM

7:15 AM 9:48 AM	0.0	lv	JACKSONVILLE	arr	4:30 PM 10:20 PM

10:17 AM 12:55 PM	147.0	arr	Orlando	lv	1:35 PM 7:24 PM

10:31 AM 1:10 PM	147.0	lv	Orlando	arr	1:23 PM 7:08 PM

12:45 PM 246.0	arr	Tampa	lv 5:17 PM

6:05 PM 6:55 PM	412.0	arr	MIAMI	lv	8:20 AM 11:50 AM


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## VentureForth (Aug 29, 2012)

New, direct line from SAV or JAX to CHI via ATL, KNOX,. etc. connect to silvers in the south.


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## tubaia (Aug 29, 2012)

Agent said:


> I think I would have a train between the Twin Cities and Kansas City via Des Moines.


Yeah, I'd like to see that. However, maybe via Sioux Falls, Sioux City, and Omaha, instead of Des Moines. It could even extend further south from Kansas City, perhaps Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas.

Of course, I also would love to see the return of the Desert Wind and Pioneer, or something similar, making it easier to reach Las Vegas, southern California, and Portland/Seattle from Colorado/Nebraska/Iowa, as well as a new Chicago to Florida route.


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

henryj said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> > Here's something that's actually practical: the _Crescent Star_ (NYP-Meridian-Dallas), split from Crescent at Meridian.
> ...


Actually the Crescent Star was probably one of the best ideas that ever came out of the Network Growth Strategy of the Warrington era. Providing a 1 seat ride between the Dallas/Fort Worth area to the east would mean that Texan's would not have to go via Chicago and a train change to reach Atlanta, DC, Baltimore, Philly, and New York City. It would have been a 1 night ride from Dallas to Atlanta, instead of the current 3. And while it would still be a 2 night ride to the other cities, it would not have required changing trains in Meridian.

Most railfans and most experts all agreed that the Crescent Star would probably have been one of the most successful routes dreamed up by the Warrington team. And it would have reduced costs by splitting/combining with the Crescent in Meridian.

I think that I recall hearing mention of a connecting bus to Houston, which would have further opened up that market to the C-Star. As I recall, only San Antonio was really left out of the picture. Although it could be that the departure time of the C-Star from the DFW area would have been late enough to connect with the Eagle.


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## VentureForth (Aug 29, 2012)

In 2002, the General Accounting Office issued this paper to Senator Ron Wyden entitled INTERCITY PASSENGER RAIL Amtrak Needs to Improve Its Decision making Process for Its Route and Service Proposals Some pretty harsh language in there about Amtrak's decision making process:



> Page 11:It was not until after Amtrak decided to implement the Network Growth
> 
> Strategy in December 1999 and announced it to Congress that it began to
> 
> ...


Further more, look at some of the routes we _could_ have had by 2001 if perhaps the process were more in line with private business practices:



> Hiawatha (extension), Spring 2000, Cancelled
> Lake Cities, Spring 2000, Cancelled
> Chicago-Janesville, Wisconsin (Lake Country Limited), Spring 2000, Implemented in 2000, cancelled in 2001
> Skyline (Manhattan Limited), Summer 2000, Cancelled
> ...


Of these, only the Texas Eagle returning to daily service was implemented and survives to this day with an extraordinary ridership and popularity despite its huge shortcomings.

Now, Amtrak has a nice rebuttal in this report, so take in the whole thing. Question really is, how much of this could happen today?


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## MikefromCrete (Aug 29, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> In 2002, the General Accounting Office issued this paper to Senator Ron Wyden entitled INTERCITY PASSENGER RAIL Amtrak Needs to Improve Its Decision making Process for Its Route and Service Proposals Some pretty harsh language in there about Amtrak's decision making process:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most of these proposals were part of the failed "let's put freight cars on Amtrak passenger trains" scheme. This plan, which seemed good on paper, had the adverse effect of delaying many LD trains because of switching at both terminating and intermediate stations, delay of trains by pissed off freight railroads who thought Amtrak was poaching on their business and, oh yeah, apparently the freight and express business actually lost money. So, these are probably not the best examples of "trains that could have been" and lost opportunities.


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## VentureForth (Aug 29, 2012)

You're right about that. In fact many of these routes didn't come to fruition precisely because the freights weren't willing to allow Amtrak compete with them in the freight and mail business. I think what Amtrak failed to realize was what the implementation of the most efficient passage of passengers along these routes were worth.


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## henryj (Aug 29, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Actually the Crescent Star was probably one of the best ideas that ever came out of the Network Growth Strategy of the Warrington era. Providing a 1 seat ride between the Dallas/Fort Worth area to the east would mean that Texan's would not have to go via Chicago and a train change to reach Atlanta, DC, Baltimore, Philly, and New York City. It would have been a 1 night ride from Dallas to Atlanta, instead of the current 3. And while it would still be a 2 night ride to the other cities, it would not have required changing trains in Meridian.
> 
> Most railfans and most experts all agreed that the Crescent Star would probably have been one of the most successful routes dreamed up by the Warrington team. And it would have reduced costs by splitting/combining with the Crescent in Meridian.
> 
> I think that I recall hearing mention of a connecting bus to Houston, which would have further opened up that market to the C-Star. As I recall, only San Antonio was really left out of the picture. Although it could be that the departure time of the C-Star from the DFW area would have been late enough to connect with the Eagle.


Alan, I am not arguing with you just stating my opinion. The Crescent Star may have been a railfans dream, but it would be a nightmare to implement. I tried working with the schedule from Dallas to connect with the Crescent and it just doesn't work. The project was primarily the dream of one John Robert Smith, the then mayor of Meridian. He built this multi million dollar 'intermodal' center to serve his one train a day and a few Greyhounds. He finally left Meridian to go to DC, so now that fool is trying to influence Federal transportation policy. Like I said, it's an idea who's time will never come. Texas would be much better off with a connection to Colorado and an extended Heartland Flyer. Trains that go somewhere Texans want to go. If the Crescent Star was such a good idea the private railroads would have implemented it years ago when they ran the nations passenger trains. Connections to the east went through St Louis and New Orleans........not Meridian, Mississiippi. Bring back the National Limited and the Louisiana Eagle. Here is Mr. Smith for those that don't know him. I have heard his speech in person.


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## VentureForth (Aug 29, 2012)

Kay Bailey Hutchinson also wanted to implement the Crescent Star. I wanted the Crescent Star and tried to talk John Cornyn into supporting it (he told me privately he would). It did go where people wanted it to go. It went from Dallas, served population centers in East Texas that the Eagle didn't (ie: Greenville, Sulphur Springs, then Shreveport), and allowed folks to go to DC and points beyond (particularly to the South) without losing an unnecessary day and connection.

Over all, it would have been a terrific plan. Did John Robert Smith actually build that $40 Mil intermodal station that the GAO report said Amtrak lacked to get the service started? If so, for shame to go so long without the Crescent Star, particularly with the Sunset truncated.


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

henryj said:


> Alan, I am not arguing with you just stating my opinion. The Crescent Star may have been a railfans dream, but it would be a nightmare to implement. I tried working with the schedule from Dallas to connect with the Crescent and it just doesn't work.


Also not arguing, but I'm curious, pray tell why it would have been a nightmare to implement? Other than the fact that Amtrak had stretched the Viewliner fleet too far. And while I don't recall the precise schedule anymore, I do know that calling times in the DFW area were in daylight, not at midnight.

Amtrak had already hired the crews to do the switching in Meridian. They had rebuilt the station. They had the tracks to deal with the switching there. The had an agreement in place with KCS for the passage on the Meridian Speedway. So I'm very curious as to why you believe this could not have been implemented.



henryj said:


> The project was primarily the dream of one John Robert Smith, the then mayor of Meridian.


Yes, I'm well aware of who John Robert Smith was, and in addition to being the Mayor at that time, he was also President of the Amtrak board.



henryj said:


> Trains that go somewhere Texans want to go.


So Texans never go to Atlanta, DC, Philly, or NY?



henryj said:


> If the Crescent Star was such a good idea the private railroads would have implemented it years ago when they ran the nations passenger trains. Connections to the east went through St Louis and New Orleans........not Meridian, Mississiippi. Bring back the National Limited and the Louisiana Eagle.


I won't pretend to be the historian that Bill Haithcoat is or some others who command considerable knowledge like Bill, but when I look at some old maps it sure does look like trains used to go through Meridian, or certainly close to it. Here's just one example: http://www.narprail.org/cms/images/uploads/map62.pdf


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> You're right about that. In fact many of these routes didn't come to fruition precisely because the freights weren't willing to allow Amtrak compete with them in the freight and mail business. I think what Amtrak failed to realize was what the implementation of the most efficient passage of passengers along these routes were worth.


Actually, the freight pretty much could not do anything to stop those passenger/freight trains. The best weapon that they had was to limit Amtrak to 30 cars, be they freight or passenger. Most of those trains failed to happen because either the original hoped for freight contracts fell through, or Amtrak couldn't find the cars to run the trains. Plus by the time some of those routes were to be implemented, Warrington was gone and cooler heads prevailed.


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## PerRock (Aug 29, 2012)

A few I'd like to see:

Chicago-Detroit-Windsor-Buffalo-Albany (Connections to BOS & NYP)

_I think the handling of the international section would be to have 2 sections on the train. One section is the thru section, After Detroit (or Buffalo) this section is sealed off. The remaining section is the canadian section, which would have to go thru customs. _

Makinaw-Detroit-Toledo, Basically I-75

peter


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 29, 2012)

AlanB said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > If the Crescent Star was such a good idea the private railroads would have implemented it years ago when they ran the nations passenger trains. Connections to the east went through St Louis and New Orleans........not Meridian, Mississiippi. Bring back the National Limited and the Louisiana Eagle.
> ...


I know that the IC used to run trains Meridian-Shreveport. I was unable to find any information about through cars to DAL going to Meridian.

The Crescent Star would be a nice train to have but IMO not as useful as the New Royal Palm.


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## henryj (Aug 29, 2012)

AlanB said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Alan, I am not arguing with you just stating my opinion. The Crescent Star may have been a railfans dream, but it would be a nightmare to implement. I tried working with the schedule from Dallas to connect with the Crescent and it just doesn't work.
> ...


The IC ran one little coach train that took 10 hours to cover the 313 miles between Shreveport and Meridian(at one time it carried a through heavy weight sleeper between Shreveport and DC). It is an additional 200+ miles and 4 to 5 hours from Dallas to Shreveport. There are 24 nonstop flights today between Dallas and Atlanta taking about 2hrs, but Atlanta is a Delta hub and many of these flights go on to somewhere else. Greyhound has 5 buses a day taking 18+ hours. The bus route is through Meridian. Eastbound the Crescent leaves Meridian at 11:07am. To match that the Star would have to leave Dallas late at night. I assume they could do better than 14 hours between Dallas and Meridian, but it matters little as it would still be an overnight journey and would serve Shreveport, the only large city, in the wee hours. Westbound the Crescent arrives in Meridian at 2:58pm. 12 hours from that would put the Star into Dallas very early in the morning. It's still another 8hrs from Meridian to Atlanta. At the time you could still connect in St Louis with the National Limited to DC and NY. The Meridian route is still two nights out to DC or NY any way you cut it. I have no idea why this wasn't implemented as I was not paying much attention to Amtrak at that time. If they ran it as a separate DFW to Atlanta train at decent hours it might work, but not connecting to the existing Crescent. But, like I said, Colorado is a much more important destination for Texans than Atlanta and probably second is Orlando to see the mouse. A lot of people used the Sunset east to Florida inspite of the long travel times. You can still get to DC and NY by train, two nights out, via Chicago. Who cares about Atlanta? Florida, maybe.


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## henryj (Aug 29, 2012)

Further to this discussion Alan, the whole South and SW are under served by Amtrak. Besides the 'Star' and the Chi to Florida service you have cities like Louisville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Lexington, knoxville, Mobile with no service at all and Cincinnati with one little three times a week train, same for Houston. No service for Phoenix, only one train for Denver, etc. It's pitiful and much more of an issue than the failed Star. No corridor service at all in Texas. The Star by the way, might work as an overnight train between Dallas and Atlanta on an 18hr schedule. But would have no connections at either end. If you had an Atlanta to DC day train it could connect with....but that all takes lots of money and equipment.


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## Agent (Aug 29, 2012)

tubaia said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> > I think I would have a train between the Twin Cities and Kansas City via Des Moines.
> ...


Well. instead of going south from Des Moines, it could go west to Omaha and then south to Kansas City (and then some). This would allow for connections with the _Zephyr_ which isn't an option going straight south out of Des Moines. Although your route does solve the "no service in South Dakota" problem.


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

henryj said:


> Further to this discussion Alan, the whole South and SW are under served by Amtrak. Besides the 'Star' and the Chi to Florida service you have cities like Louisville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Lexington, knoxville, Mobile with no service at all and Cincinnati with one little three times a week train, same for Houston. No service for Phoenix, only one train for Denver, etc. It's pitiful and much more of an issue than the failed Star. No corridor service at all in Texas. The Star by the way, might work as an overnight train between Dallas and Atlanta on an 18hr schedule. But would have no connections at either end. If you had an Atlanta to DC day train it could connect with....but that all takes lots of money and equipment.


I agree, the south is under served. Which is why I'm stunned to hear you say that and then in the same breath put down extra service in the south. Makes no sense to me at all.

And there are plenty of flights to Florida too, and it also takes many less hours than the train would. So I don't buy that argument at all for Atlanta. Sorry!

And once again, as I already noted, yes you can get to DC & NY via Chicago. But only after cooling your heals in Chicago for several hours to change trains. This would have been a 1 seat ride. No change of trains required! All one has to do is get onboard and sit back and relax. No packing everything up and hauling it on/off the train. For anyone but a railfan, this is a huge plus. So no, I'm still not buying that this was a bad idea and near impossible to implement.

It was never implemented because by the time they got close, Warrington was out as President and the people who had been ignored by Warrington, weren't ignored when they told the new management that there was no way that they could keep that many Viewliner sleepers on the road as would be needed with that service on the top of all the others.


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## Nightrider (Aug 30, 2012)

Beth said:


> I'd like to see a route through South Dakota...maybe starting in Minneapolis (or Chicago) and heading down through South Dakota, Montana, southern Idaho, and probably ending up in Portland. On a side note, does anyone know why Amtrak does not currently serve South Dakota?


Primarily because South Dakota does not happen to have any major thru rail routes currently. And its largest cities are not large enough or near enough to Amtrak hubs to warrant a stub service....


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## Anderson (Aug 30, 2012)

AlanB said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Further to this discussion Alan, the whole South and SW are under served by Amtrak. Besides the 'Star' and the Chi to Florida service you have cities like Louisville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Lexington, knoxville, Mobile with no service at all and Cincinnati with one little three times a week train, same for Houston. No service for Phoenix, only one train for Denver, etc. It's pitiful and much more of an issue than the failed Star. No corridor service at all in Texas. The Star by the way, might work as an overnight train between Dallas and Atlanta on an 18hr schedule. But would have no connections at either end. If you had an Atlanta to DC day train it could connect with....but that all takes lots of money and equipment.
> ...


Looking at the numbers, the _only_ way the CS would have worked is if either KBH et al had managed to secure an earmark for some additional rolling stock or Amtrak had been flat-out ordered to keep the old Santa Fe sleepers in service for another decade. Now, as much fun we can all have thinking about an all-Heritage train running deep into the 21st Century, it's not the most practical thing in the world.


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## henryj (Aug 30, 2012)

AlanB said:


> I agree, the south is under served. Which is why I'm stunned to hear you say that and then in the same breath put down extra service in the south. Makes no sense to me at all.
> 
> And there are plenty of flights to Florida too, and it also takes many less hours than the train would. So I don't buy that argument at all for Atlanta. Sorry!


Alan you still don't address how a train that leaves Dallas at 11pm or later and arrives back in Dallas at 3am is a viable service, expecially when it serves it's only other large city, Shreveport, in the wee hours both ways. The rest of the route is devoid of any real traffic. Like I said, this train might make sense if it operated on it's own as a basic overnighter on an 18 hour schedule arriving at both ends in the morning. Perhaps westbound it could arrive in Shreveport early and Dallas mid to late morning. But then it misses the connection with the southbound Eagle. I really question if there would be enough through passengers to the East coast to justify such a train. To start up a train like this when there are so many other more critical needs makes no sense. In addition, just ignoring the obvious schedule problems, to do all that switching in little Meridian when Amtrak can't even switch out sleepers and coaches in Atlanta is ludicrous. The whole CS thing was a John Robert Smith boondoggle from the start created by him to put his little burg on the map. To argue over the failed CS whos time will never come, I would suggest we concentrate on things like Chicago to Florida, restore the Sunset east, Texas to Colorado and beyond to Portland, MSP to Chicago corridor service, Texas triangle corridor service, the SWC reroute or not, service to Phoenix, Denver to Alburquerque and LA., multiple trains on routes like Chi to NYP and Chi to LA., St Louis to DC and NY and west to Denver. The list is almost endless.


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## jis (Aug 30, 2012)

henryj said:


> Alan you still don't address how a train that leaves Dallas at 11pm or later and arrives back in Dallas at 3am is a viable service, expecially when it serves it's only other large city, Shreveport, in the wee hours both ways.


That part about 11pm and 3am is a complete red herring. No one will complain if the train schedule were padded enough for it to depart Dallas at 8pm and arrive at 7am.

Plenty of LD trains run through plenty of large cities in the middle of the night with plenty of ridership. So I simply don't buy the argument of non-viability based on those few points. If that were true then many other trains would also be non-viable in that sense. Of course one could argue that they all really are non-viable, but let us not go there for the sake of this argument.


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## slimchipley (Aug 30, 2012)

PerRock said:


> A few I'd like to see:
> 
> Chicago-Detroit-Windsor-Buffalo-Albany (Connections to BOS & NYP)
> 
> ...


How about: Toronto - Detroit (Dearborn) - Cincinnati - Atlanta - Orlando (Jacksonville?)


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 30, 2012)

slimchipley said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > A few I'd like to see:
> ...


I don't like this idea. I think it could work if you spilit it into Toronto-Detroit-Chicago and Detroit-Cincicnati-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami with through cars from Chicago. Thorugh cars from Toronto would be better off going though Buffalo and Cleveland. That was how the New Royal Palm worked except that the through cars only went to BUF, not Toronto.

Here is the New Royal Palm timetable: http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/newroyalpalm195103.html.


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## xyzzy (Aug 30, 2012)

Alas, running a Chicago-Florida train via Atlanta is fantasy. Running a Louisville-Florida train via Birmingham is doable, but there's still the problem of how to get from Chicago to Louisville on an acceptable schedule.


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## henryj (Aug 30, 2012)

xyzzy said:


> Alas, running a Chicago-Florida train via Atlanta is fantasy. Running a Louisville-Florida train via Birmingham is doable, but there's still the problem of how to get from Chicago to Louisville on an acceptable schedule.


I am curious as to why a Chi-Florida train via Atlanta is fantasy? Aren't there multiple ways to get to Atlanta from Chicago? Whos track are we talking about using that is fantasy? I looked at several routes, one via Danville, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga to Atlanta using the CSX. The other via the CONO route to Memphis then via Birmingham to Atlanta. Another followed the NS to Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Lexington, Chattanooga to Atlanta. All of these seem feasible to me. What am I missing?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 31, 2012)

henryj said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> > Alas, running a Chicago-Florida train via Atlanta is fantasy. Running a Louisville-Florida train via Birmingham is doable, but there's still the problem of how to get from Chicago to Louisville on an acceptable schedule.
> ...


I'm thinking the same thing. Maybe it is one train that would be great but just won't happen. Don't know.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 31, 2012)

henryj said:


> NY Penn said:
> 
> 
> > Here's something that's actually practical: the _Crescent Star_ (NYP-Meridian-Dallas), split from Crescent at Meridian.
> ...


I don't know or understand the specifics of what rails are available - but if there is a way to connect Atlanta - Memphis - Saint Louis and points west, that would seem to be a winner - what other major population centers could be served seems worthy of discussion -alternate ways to tie in to the East Coast, Texas, and West Coast service?


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## VentureForth (Aug 31, 2012)

This may sound silly, but a train that cuts straight across Tennessee would be nice. Salisbury - Ashville - Knoxville - Nashville - Memphis. Oh - I guess that's I-40.


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## xyzzy (Aug 31, 2012)

The problems getting a Chicago-Florida train through Atlanta:


Both of the routes into Atlanta from the north -- NS and CSX -- are at 100% capacity with freight already.
Of the routes south from Atlanta, the only one that's not already at 100% capacity with freight (without taking a circuitous detour) is the ex-CofG. Long history on that line. Even so, at Macon you'd have to use the ex-GS&F southward and now you're back to capacity issues again.
The existing station in Atlanta is in the wrong place, no matter what route in and out of Atlanta you choose.
All of these problems can be fixed with big money, but money is in short supply.


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## henryj (Aug 31, 2012)

xyzzy said:


> The problems getting a Chicago-Florida train through Atlanta:
> 
> 
> Both of the routes into Atlanta from the north -- NS and CSX -- are at 100% capacity with freight already.
> ...


Well we are talking fantasy land here anyway as Amtrak has no equipment nor any desire to expand routes. Their only input for a Chicago-Florida train was to combine the Capitol with the Star and route you through DC. I took a steam excursion over the NS 'rat hole' years ago and they have it in prime shape. Many tunnels were daylighted and it has a lot of double track. Yep it's very busy, but they managed to push us through between freights and they could do the same with Amtrak. Atlanta has toyed with plans to build a new train station to replace the little surburban station they now use which would alleviate the station problem. All the major rail routes are busy and at capacity so that's really not the issue. The issue is just how much will you have to pay to get 'your' train expedited. And of course which route to take, the CSX or the NS. Also you have to decide if you can make it from chicago to Jax in 24 hrs or if you want a two nights out train. One leaves Chicago in the morning the longer schedule leaves late at night. If you just combine it with the CONO through Memphis, that route would be two nights out. All this is interesting speculation, but of course first we need an organization that has an interest in running LD trains and has the money to do so.


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## Notelvis (Aug 31, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> This may sound silly, but a train that cuts straight across Tennessee would be nice. Salisbury - Ashville - Knoxville - Nashville - Memphis. Oh - I guess that's I-40.


That would be a great battle cry -

"Restore the Tennessee Central!"

Otherwise, the train can't go where the tracks no longer exist!


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## xyzzy (Aug 31, 2012)

henryj said:


> Well we are talking fantasy land here anyway as Amtrak has no equipment nor any desire to expand routes. Their only input for a Chicago-Florida train was to combine the Capitol with the Star and route you through DC. I took a steam excursion over the NS 'rat hole' years ago and they have it in prime shape. Many tunnels were daylighted and it has a lot of double track. Yep it's very busy, but they managed to push us through between freights and they could do the same with Amtrak. Atlanta has toyed with plans to build a new train station to replace the little surburban station they now use which would alleviate the station problem. All the major rail routes are busy and at capacity so that's really not the issue. The issue is just how much will you have to pay to get 'your' train expedited. And of course which route to take, the CSX or the NS. Also you have to decide if you can make it from chicago to Jax in 24 hrs or if you want a two nights out train. One leaves Chicago in the morning the longer schedule leaves late at night. If you just combine it with the CONO through Memphis, that route would be two nights out. All this is interesting speculation, but of course first we need an organization that has an interest in running LD trains and has the money to do so.


Cincinnati-Chattanooga isn't the problem, and anyway Amtrak would almost certainly elect Cincinnati-Chattanooga on CSX via Louisville and Nashville because of greater population. Chattanooga-Atlanta (mostly single track) is the problem. I've been up and down that NS line a lot. The occasional steam special gets treatment that daily Amtraks do not. I disagree with your perspective about capacity. Take a long look at http://www.dot.state...Tonnage_Map.pdf . There's no such thing as paying to get your train expedited with traffic levels like that.

As a former resident of Atlanta I've been hearing this talk about a new station for 30 years. It's no closer to happening today than it was in 1982.


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## Oreius (Aug 31, 2012)

*I saw the post regarding "Where would you initiate a new Amtrak route, and why." This is my dream route.*

* *

*I would really like to see Amtrak run a service from Philadelphia, PA to Chicago, IL via Erie, PA. The route would run as follows: *

* *

*1. Travel west from Philly to Harrisburg on the current Amtrak Keystone Line, with stops at Paoli, Lancaster, Elizabethtown, and Harrisburg. *

*2. The train would then travel up the NS Buffalo Line from Harrisburg, PA to Emporium, PA. Stops would be at the following cities: Millersburg, Sunbury, Williamsport, Lock Haven, and Emporium. *

*3. Route would then proceed west from Emporium, PA to Saint Mary's PA along what is now a rail-trail. The tracks have been removed, but a portion of the ROW has been set aside should rail service again be desired. Amtrak could provide funding to rebuild this portion.*

*4. After a stop at Saint Marys, the route would continue west to Ridgway along the Buffalo and Pittsburgh (ex. PRR and Allegheny and Eastern) line from Saint Marys to Erie. Stops would be at Ridgway, Kane, Warren, Youngsville, Corry, Waterford, and then finally Erie. *

*5.A connector would be built in Erie from the end of the line at the former Hammermill Plant location (right now, there is only a junction here between the BPRR and CSX), and join the CSX. There used to a dedicated PRR platform at the Erie station for Erie-Philadelphia trains. Only this time, the train would use the same platform the Lake Shore Limited uses. *

*6. Train would leave Philadelphia around 8:00 AM, and arrive in Erie around 10 PM, and then arrive in Chicago around 9:00 AM the next day. *

*7. Return trip from Chicago to Philly would also leave at 8:00 AM and arrive at Philly 9:00 the next day. *

*8. This service would run twice or thrice a week in each direction.*

*9. On-board services would include Amfleet II coaches, a dinette, and sleeper, with a dome car/sightseeing lounge in the fall months. *

*10. Like the Keystone Service and Pennsylvanian, this train would be supported with funds from PennDOT.*

*11. The name of this train would be "Allegheny Limited." Since it travels through both the Northern Allegheny Mountains and Allegheny National Forest.*

*12. Simple, covered shelters (with an ADA accessible platform) with heat and air conditioning would be constructed along the tracks in the communities without passenger rail service. Old railroad stations could be renovated to serve passengers as well. *

* *

* *

* *

*Much of the trackage between Harrisburg and Erie is single track, with a few passing sidings (mostly between Emporium and Harrisburg). Between Ridgway and Erie, only a couple freight trains run daily, most of the freight carried is wood products (for a paper plant in Johnsonburg) and oil (for a refinery in Warren). This would undoubtedly be Amtrak's most scenic route, if not one of the most scenic. Especially in autumn, when the mountains become ablaze with colors. The line skirts the Susquehanna, West Branch Susquehanna, Sinnemahoning Creek, and even the Allegheny River. *

* *

*I believe that a passenger train would provide a cheap (and scenic) mode of transportation for the isolated communities of Central and Northern PA. It would provide a through service to both Philadelphia (and the rest of the Northeast) and well as the Midwest. It would also be popular in the fall because of the autumn colors. *

* *

* *

* *

* *

* *

* *

* *

* *

* *


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## henryj (Aug 31, 2012)

xyzzy said:


> Cincinnati-Chattanooga isn't the problem, and anyway Amtrak would almost certainly elect Cincinnati-Chattanooga on CSX via Louisville and Nashville because of greater population. Chattanooga-Atlanta (mostly single track) is the problem. I've been up and down that NS line a lot. The occasional steam special gets treatment that daily Amtraks do not. I disagree with your perspective about capacity. Take a long look at http://www.dot.state...Tonnage_Map.pdf . There's no such thing as paying to get your train expedited with traffic levels like that.
> 
> As a former resident of Atlanta I've been hearing this talk about a new station for 30 years. It's no closer to happening today than it was in 1982.


Nice map. Thanks. Do you have any for Tennessee, Ill and Indiana? The CSX route I was looking at was via Evansville and Nashville then Chattanooga. Nice to hear info from someone that has actually been there. Louisville is off to the east out of the way. Do you think they would take that roundabout route? I was looking at a one night out train, Chicago to Jax in 23hours. If you do two nights out then you might as well take the Capitol/Star connection or use the CONO route to Memphis then cut over rather then try and reinstate a whole new route. For just one train a day Atlanta really doesn't need a new station. If they were to get more service then they might finally act. Houston talked about a new 'intermodal' station linked to the new light rail line. But with the only train service being the three times a week Sunset, that was dropped and forgotten.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 1, 2012)

xyzzy said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Well we are talking fantasy land here anyway as Amtrak has no equipment nor any desire to expand routes. Their only input for a Chicago-Florida train was to combine the Capitol with the Star and route you through DC. I took a steam excursion over the NS 'rat hole' years ago and they have it in prime shape. Many tunnels were daylighted and it has a lot of double track. Yep it's very busy, but they managed to push us through between freights and they could do the same with Amtrak. Atlanta has toyed with plans to build a new train station to replace the little surburban station they now use which would alleviate the station problem. All the major rail routes are busy and at capacity so that's really not the issue. The issue is just how much will you have to pay to get 'your' train expedited. And of course which route to take, the CSX or the NS. Also you have to decide if you can make it from chicago to Jax in 24 hrs or if you want a two nights out train. One leaves Chicago in the morning the longer schedule leaves late at night. If you just combine it with the CONO through Memphis, that route would be two nights out. All this is interesting speculation, but of course first we need an organization that has an interest in running LD trains and has the money to do so.
> ...


I still don't see a problem except for the heavily trafficked red section out of ATL. This route should not be that hard: Chattanooga-Dalton-Calhoun-Cartersville-Marietta-Atlanta-Griffin-Macon-Jesup-Jacksonville. The biggest problem is Cartersville-Marietta-Atlanta, but that such a short section it would not be impossible to solve. New station in ATL would be another problm but even though it probably won't happen with current politicians, it could be built eventually. As long as it's reasonably possible, then all we need is the decision to do it.

What am I missing?

BTW, they could use the line through McCaysville, it looks to be in full service just light loads.


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## xyzzy (Sep 1, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What am I missing?


Familiarity with railroad operations. 

Chattanooga-Cartersville: Most of the sidings are 10 mph, causing very slow meets. CSX runs all the train on this segment that it can.
Cartersville-Tilford Yard: 28 miles of 30 or 35 mph max, with a substantial grade that bogs down freights. Numerous bridges, so it's expensive to add more second track or sidings. Notorious for delays.
Tilford Yard through downtown Atlanta: speeds range from 10 to 30 mph max. Frequent delays to due freights entering/leaving Tilford as well as frequent NS traffic crossing CSX at Howell Tower.
Atlanta-Griffin-Macon: Includes 88 miles of dark railroad, most of it 25 mph. Leg of elevated wye to Macon Union Station is gone. Slow running through Brosnan Yard to reach the junction for the Brunswick line.
Macon-Jesup: 145 miles of dark railroad, currently 49 mph max although it probably would support 59 mph. Only two sidings along this entire segment.
Just installing PTC, as will be required eventually for passenger service, on the Griffin and Brunswick lines would cost in $25-50M. Add in other improvements plus new stations in Atlanta and Macon, and you're over $100M.


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## TWA904 (Sep 1, 2012)

My route to initate that would cover gaps in the current system is starting in Miami going through Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, New Orleans,

Houston, Dallas, Amarillo, Denver, Sal Lake City, Prtland and ending in Seattle.


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## Notelvis (Sep 1, 2012)

> BTW, they could use the line through McCaysville, it looks to be in full service just light loads.


That route hosts a couple of tourist operations. The Blue Ridge Scenic Railroad operates between Blue Ridge, GA and McCaysville, GA. The Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum folks operate the 'Hiwassee River Rail Adventure' from a point a few miles outside of Etowah, TN to Copperhill, TN which is actually just a few hundred feet from where the Blue Ridge Scenic terminates. It's essentially one small town with the state line running through it. The north side is Copperhill and the south side is McCaysville.

I don't believe that there is any freight traffic at all on the portion of the route where the tourist trains operate..... or if there is, non of it runs 'through'. The section of track where it crosses the state line hasn't felt steel wheels in a decade or two.


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## Acela150 (Sep 1, 2012)

Is it possible to put this in that other thread so we don't have two topics about dream routes.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 1, 2012)

Acela150 said:


> Is it possible to put this in that other thread so we don't have two topics about dream routes.


Yes, it is possible.


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## dabrilloman (Sep 1, 2012)

One I would like to see would be Saint Paul-Souix Falls-Rapid City-Cheyenne-Denver. Call it maybe the Rapid City Runner? Being from Saint Paul, I would love to be able to go to the Black Hills by train. Plus it would serve an area of the country that has no service.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 1, 2012)

Notelvis said:


> > BTW, they could use the line through McCaysville, it looks to be in full service just light loads.
> 
> 
> That route hosts a couple of tourist operations. The Blue Ridge Scenic Railroad operates between Blue Ridge, GA and McCaysville, GA. The Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum folks operate the 'Hiwassee River Rail Adventure' from a point a few miles outside of Etowah, TN to Copperhill, TN which is actually just a few hundred feet from where the Blue Ridge Scenic terminates. It's essentially one small town with the state line running through it. The north side is Copperhill and the south side is McCaysville.
> ...


If tourist trains can run on that route then I would expect that Amtrak can as well. As long as thaat loittle section across the state line is still in place, it could be checked and opened to traffic. Replacing rails for that tiny segment wouldn't be hard, either.

About the section past ATL, one could run through Cordele via Manchester or Macon then Waycross to JAX. If the section Waycroos to JAX has too much traffic, what about the line through Valdosta?


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## ArchBishop (Sep 2, 2012)

My number one new route would be Kansas City - Denver, and would accept an extention of the current Missouri River Runner (St. Louis - Kansas City). This would give a mid route connection to the CZ, SWC and TE.

My number two new route, would be extending the Heartland Flyer as far north as Minneapolis, stops in Wichita, Topeka, Kansas City, Des Moines) This would also give a mid route connection to the EB, CZ, SWC and TE.


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## Ben (Sep 2, 2012)

Based on market demand:

1. LA-Las Vegas

2. Houston-Dallas

3. Chicago-Atlanta-Miami


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## Anderson (Sep 2, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> > I think that the _Pioneer_: Seattle - Portland - Boise - Ogden - Cheyenne - Denver plus going through to Houston via Colorado Springs, Amarillo, Lubbock, Killeen and College Station would cover the most territory, and would bring in cities (that either had never had Amtrak service or lost that service) with a total population of more than 2,000,000, plus all the surrounding countryside. I am not sure that the tracks are in place to add College Station, but a Pioneer that covered nearly 2500 miles in two days covering the US in SE/NW direction that is so lacking... Well it would be a world class train for scenery! A good mix of mountains, desert, plains and everything in between.
> ...


Ok, I went and checked. Right now, FrontRunner runs from Ogden to SLC. The plan is to extend it to Provo by the end of the year; there are longer-term plans to extend service to Brigham City and Nephi (which would put the length of the line well over 100 miles).


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## henryj (Sep 2, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Ziv said:
> ...


This is a good route, but it needs to go through DFW rather then Lubbock and Killeen. You are missing some 5-6 million people by diverting to that route. Lubbock could be connected by a bus to Amarillo. The only real bottle neck on the route is the Colorado Springs to Palmer Lake section of single track. BNSF now runs directionally between Pueblo and Amarillo using two different routes. You can connect Houston either through Fort Worth using the BNSF route or through Dallas using either the BNSF or UP routes. The BNSF route through Fort Worth was the Lone Star route so it is passenger train ready. The other routes would require some work. The rest of the route north to Denver is in excellent shape and is fully signalled now. It's just full of coal trains. The UP route north of Denver and across Wyoming is multi-track. If you reincarnated the Desert Wind at the same time it could connect in Ogden. The CZ could bring over cars from Chicago to connect in Denver. I would not even try and make any connections with the CZ in SLC. Here is a schedule.

Texas Texas

Pioneer Pioneer

lv	VANCOUVER BC	arr	10:45 PM

7:30 AM	lv	SEATTLE	arr	6:20 PM

11:00 AM	arr	PORTLAND	lv	2:50 PM

11:30 AM	lv	PORTLAND(PT)	arr	1:00 PM

10:55 PM	arr	BOISE lv	2:40 AM

11:00 PM	lv	BOISE	arr	2:35 AM

1:20 AM	arr	SHOSHONE(MT)	lv	12:40 AM

11:00 PM	lv	SUN VALLEY	arr	3:00 AM

1:00 AM	arr	SHOSHONE	lv	1:00 AM

1:25 AM	lv	SHOSHONE	arr	12:35 AM

3:10 AM	arr	POCATELLO	lv	10:50 PM

12:00 AM	lv	WEST YELLOWSTONE	arr	2:00 AM

3:00 AM	arr	POCATELLO	lv	11:00 PM

3:25 AM	lv	POCATELLO	arr	10:35 PM

6:10 AM	arr	OGDEN	lv	7:50 PM

6:30 AM	lv	OGDEN	arr	7:30 PM

10:20 AM	arr	GREEN RIVER	lv	3:40 PM

10:25 AM	lv	GREEN RIVER	arr	3:35 PM

3:55 PM	arr	CHEYENNE(BOWIE)	lv	10:05 AM

4:00 PM	lv	CHEYENNE(BOWIE)	arr	10:00 AM

6:00 PM	arr	DENVER	lv	8:15 AM

8:10 PM	lv	DENVER	arr	7:15 AM

6:14 AM	lv	OMAHA	lv	10:39 PM

3:50 PM	arr	CHICAGO(CT)	lv	2:00 PM

6:45 PM	lv	DENVER	arr	7:30 AM

8:30 PM	arr	COLORADO SPRINGS	lv	5:45 AM

8:45 PM	lv	COLORADO SPRINGS	arr	5:30 AM

10:00 PM	lv	PUEBLO	lv	4:30 AM

6:00 AM	arr	AMARILLO	lv	9:45 PM

6:30 AM	lv	AMARILLO	arr	9:15 PM

1:30 PM	arr	FT WORTH	lv	3:00 PM

2:00 PM	lv	FT WORTH	arr	1:30 PM

3:00 PM	arr	DALLAS	lv	12:30 PM

2:30 PM	lv	FT WORTH	arr	1:48 PM

5:03 PM	arr	TEMPLE	lv	11:15 AM

5:08 PM	lv	TEMPLE	arr	11:10 AM

6:38 PM	lv	BRENHAM	lv	9:40 AM

7:51 PM	lv	ROSENBERG	lv	8:14 AM

9:08 PM	arr	HOUSTON	lv	7:30 AM


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## Nathanael (Sep 2, 2012)

If I'm *dreaming*, and biasing towards things I'd use myself, NYC-Scranton-Binghamton-Cortland-Syracuse.

If I'm restricting myself to routes which have *been suggested*, and biasing towards things I'd use myself, the Vermont "western route" from Albany, NY to Burlington, VT.

If I were looking at it from the point of view of the Colorado resident:

Fort Collins-Loveland-Longmont-Boulder-Denver, CO

If I were looking at it from the point of view of a Minnesota or Wisconsin resident:

Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis

If I were looking at it from the point of view of an Arizonan:

Phoenix service

If I were looking at it from the point of view of an Ohioan

Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati

If I were operating strictly from Amtrak's business perspective:

Detroit-Toledo-New York City

(Of the nonexistent train routes requested by callers to Amtrak who haven't looked up which routes exist, Detroit to New York is the one most often requested. The necessary additional trackage is very small compared to other possible routes. No additional stations are needed. It would relieve capacty constraints on the Capitol Limited and/or Lake Shore Limited.)

Agreed with others: the current network is so skeletal that there are a huge number of needed additional routes.

But if I were actually put in as Amtrak exec and told "Congress has authorized you to add any one new route, all expenses paid, but you don't get to build greenfield high-speed rail", it would be Detroit-New York. I think it has the best *network effects*.


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## Nathanael (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm going to throw out a few different *methods* of coming up with suitable train routes to add:

- Method 1: RIDERSHIP.

Pick big cities. Connect them to other big cities, first nearby ones, then faraway ones. Have lots of frequency.

This method gets you Phoenix downtown service, Phoenix-LA, Phoenix-Tuscon;

Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati;

Detroit-Toledo-(eastward);

Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis;

Quad Cities - Omaha via every significant city in Iowa;

Fort Collins-Denver-Pueblo via every significant city in Colorado;

etc.

This is the approach which state governments have taken when they fund rail service themselves... except that they have a strong bias towards only connecting *in-state* cities, or perhaps cities right on the border. So Illinois doesn't make the effort to get to Janesville or even Indianapolis.

- Method 2: COVERAGE.

This is what gets you very expensive routes like the Pioneer.

- Method 3: POLITICAL WILL.

This is effectively what has determined which states have good rail service and which don't. South Carolina has no political will to have rail, and neither does Mississippi, so they have very little; North Carolina and Florida have the political will, so they have more and more rail.

- Method 4: MONEY/EFFICIENCY.

Since very few routes have been net contributors to Amtrak's balance sheet, this hasn't been very relevant. Obviously ridership matters, and political will matters because local attitudes towards trains affects ridership! But there is one other basic principle of "efficiency" in adding new service, and it's simple: leverage existing resources as much as possible. So, if you can extend a train on the NEC along the route of the Crescent (opening 0 new stations), you are likely to have a good monetary result. If you can double service on a one-a-day train, that's likely to have a pretty good result.

I personally favor Detroit-Toledo-NY because it (1) connects cities so that it would get lots of ridership (2) adds coverage (3) is anchored in places which have political will and (4) leverages existing resources a *lot*. Also, I kind of feel like, if we can't get something as simple as Detroit-Toledo added, many of the really good long-distance routes and corridors are completely implausible.

I've personally watched people at the Amtrak counter ask about going to Detroit, be told that the only Detroit-Toledo connection was a bus, and turn away and go to the airport. I think Detroit-Toledo would be extremely worth it.


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## Anderson (Sep 2, 2012)

> So Illinois doesn't make the effort to get to Janesville or even Indianapolis.


*has a Post-Train Stress Disorder episode about the ridership on the Lake Country Limited*

All sarcasm aside, I'd like to point out that money/efficiency side of things isn't able to play into things like it should be able to in some places. In particular, VA's through trains heading north of WAS are virtually all incremental to Amtrak's bottom line by a substantial amount, but if VA doesn't fund them, Amtrak can't run them.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 2, 2012)

henryj said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Anderson said:
> ...


I am amazed at your effort, but this timetable would make it a lot easier: http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/texzephyr194106.html

This also helps: http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/samhouzeph194112.html


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## henryj (Sep 3, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I am amazed at your effort, but this timetable would make it a lot easier: http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/texzephyr194106.html
> 
> This also helps: http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/samhouzeph194112.html


Thanks for the links. But I have all those. I have bunches of railroad timetables I picked up over the years and the Official Guides from 1918 until and through Amtrak. just not every year. Some are reprints and are easier to work with as they are on good paper. You can still buy reprints on ebay. I based my timing on the original Texas Zephyr timings and Amtrak's timing of the Pioneer. I left off a lot of the connections as it's too complicated to put on here. But the train connects with the Eagle in Fort Worth and if they reroute the SWC it would connect in Amarillo. It also connects with the Heartland Flyer which I extended to KC and MSP. I guess I like playing with timetables and schedules. It would all work great if Amtrak had any inclination to do something like that. But I guess we are lucky to just have what we have.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 3, 2012)

henryj said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > I am amazed at your effort, but this timetable would make it a lot easier: http://www.streamlin...phyr194106.html
> ...


BTW, I see that you've taken the Flying Crow. I would really like to know about that train.


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## Nathanael (Sep 3, 2012)

Anderson said:


> > So Illinois doesn't make the effort to get to Janesville or even Indianapolis.
> 
> 
> *has a Post-Train Stress Disorder episode about the ridership on the Lake Country Limited*
> ...


Yeah. That is ridiculous, isn't it?

Anyway, that's why I said "Detroit to New York", which would be longer than the magic cutoff number of miles for a train which "must be state funded", rather than "Detroit to Toledo", which wouldn't be.  It would require additional equipment though.


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## jphjaxfl (Sep 3, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


The Flying Crow was Kansas City Southern's secondary train between Kansas City and Shreveport with branches to New Orleans and to Beaumont and Port Arthur, Texas. The Kansas City Southern touted their railroad "as the crow flies" because it was almost a straight route from Kansas City to the Gulf of Mexico. Even though the Flying Crow was a secondary train with lots of stops due to carrying lots of mail, it still carried a sleeping car from Kansas City to Shreveport and a observation diner lounge from Kansas City to New Orleans and from Sherveport to Port Arthur. The train was a local overnight train between Kansas City and Shreveport and daylight train from Shreveport to New Orleans and Shreveport to Port Arthur. Between Shreveport and New Orleans, trains operated over the former Louisiana and Arkansas Railroad which had two routes from Shreveport to Alexandria with the Flying Crow taking the route along the Red River through Clarence and The Southern Belle taking the more northerly route through Minden. The KCS operated excellent passenger service later than most small railroad. They even built new chair cars which are still operating in North Carolina. Unfortunately, the Railway Post Office discontinued the RPO cars in 1968 so the Flying Crow came off in 1968 and the Southern Belle and a year later in November, 1969. The Flying Crow made some interesting late night or early morning connections. There was a good connection at Howe, OK with Rock Island's Choctow route. I live in Hot Springs, AR in junior high and high school use to take trips on KCS and Rock Island as well as MoPac trains in the early to mid 1960s and found myself changing in Howe several time. The KCS also did away with the first class fare for Sleeping Cars so you only paid the room rate in addition to your coach ticket.


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## xyzzy (Sep 3, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> BTW, they could use the line through McCaysville, it looks to be in full service just light loads.


You're kidding, right? The last regularly scheduled L&N passenger train that ran this route took 8+ hours to go 227 miles between Knoxville and Atlanta. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the rail dates to the 1920s or before. Much of the line will have 25 mph speed limits because of curvature, regardless of rail condition. For a tourist railroad, nobody cares about speed -- but for people who want to get between Chicago and Florida in a reasonable length of time, it matters.


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## henryj (Sep 3, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> BTW, I see that you've taken the Flying Crow. I would really like to know about that train.


Well I was at basic training at Fort Polk in the Fall of 1963. Me and seven others were selected to go to Germany. We went by rail, first class. We boarded the Flying Crow in Leesville in January and rode in the Obsv. as far as Texarkana where we boarded the Texas Eagle for St Louis. On the Eagle we had the Slumbercoach. The NE part of the country was in the grip of a major snow storm. The Eagle was late into St Louis and we missed our connection to the NYC Southwestern Limited. We also missed the Pennsy's Penn Texas. The station agent got us on the Spirit of St Louis to New York. We had adjoining bedrooms and the porter opened the wall so we had them 'in suite'. So we did what all service men do, we sat around and played cards. They fed us in the diner. The Army had regulations as to what they fed us. In NY the Army picked us up and took us to the Brooklyn Army Terminal where we boarded a troop ship for Germany. When I came back three years later we flew back and most of the trains were gone. By now I am sure you are sorry you asked. lol. The real story is that they gave our orders to a guy that had reinlisted. He was clueless. His suggestion in St Louis was that we just sit there and wait for the Army to come get us. I was the one that directed him to the ticket agent. In NY we had arrived at Penn Station rather then Grand Central so the Army had no idea where we were. He just wanted to sit and wait for them to find us. I suggested he try and call Brooklyn Army Terminal and let them know where we were. Nothing happenned. Finally one of the other guys came up to me and offered me his change if I would make the call. They were glad to hear from us and sent a bus to pick us up. I am glad I got to ride those three trains as it was my only chance as it turned out. Not much on the Flying Crow, but then someone else gave you all the details. I think they fed us a box lunch dinner on that train.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Sep 3, 2012)

jphjaxfl said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > henryj said:
> ...


Great info, thanks a bunch. Since this thread is about new Amtrak routes, a KCY-NOL train would be great. Not much Interstates or flights, either, just some buses.



xyzzy said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, they could use the line through McCaysville, it looks to be in full service just light loads.
> ...


Oh, great. Eight hours is just far too much.



henryj said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, I see that you've taken the Flying Crow. I would really like to know about that train.
> ...


Great story even though not much info!  Wish I could've taken those trains, I was born after Amtrak!


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