# SEPTA: 'Significant structural defect' sidelines 120 railcars



## Thirdrail7 (Jul 4, 2016)

It looks like serious trouble for the Silverliner V fleet.

SEPTA: Serious cracks found in 95 percent of cars inspected so far

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20160704_SEPTA__Serious_cracks_found_in_95_percent_of_cars_inspected_so_far.html?betaPreview=redesign

Please allow a brief "fair use" quote:



> Structural failures found in a third of SEPTA's train fleet are forcing more than 100 cars off the tracks indefinitely.
> 
> At the Wayne Junction SEPTA Station yard many of the 120 Silverliner V trains are put on side tracks awaiting whatever repair will come before they can be brought back into service.
> 
> ...





> The flaw, a crack in a weight-bearing beam on a train car's undercarriage, has shown up in almost all of SEPTA's Silverliner V's, the newest trains in its Regional Rail fleet. The agency spent $274 million on them and they were put in service from 2010 to 2013.
> 
> *A revised schedule will be announced Monday, but SEPTA officials warned that delays and crowded trains will be a near certainty when riders return to work Tuesday. The severity of the structural problems is still being investigated, but the failure could cause vehicle shortages throughout the summer, Knueppel said.*





> SEPTA runs its trains at 90 percent capacity and doesn't have a significant stock of unused, operable rail cars. With 120 vehicles out of commission, the authority has few options.





> While Hyundai Rotem Corp., part of the consortium that handled the original contract, provided a seven-year warranty on the vehicles, obtaining the parts will take time and the work is significant, 30 to 60 hours per car to replace the equalizer beams. Hyundai Rotem has assigned staff to assist SEPTA, Knueppel said.* The agency was talking with New Jersey Transit and Amtrak about the possibility of leasing equipment to help SEPTA until its own cars are repaired, he said. Knueppel said he was not aware of any other local transit agencies using the affected Silverliners.*


Maybe the 664 will end up back at Septa. Where's that logo?


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## neroden (Jul 4, 2016)

Uh-oh. Hyundai Rotem will have to replace the trucks. They're from some subcontractor, I don't know who...

This almost certainly affects the Denver cars as well. 

Hyundai Rotem has already paid large penalties on this order due to being late. They've got to be losing money by now.


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## norfolkwesternhenry (Jul 4, 2016)

All I can say is ouch, luckily I use a bike to get around, and my city (Minneapolis) has not had good train/trolley/light rail service since the fiftys, so we don't suffer the few disadvantages or rail, Unfortunately, we have very little rail service, the Northstar (halfway to St. Cloud, even though there is 79 MPH track all the way, EB) and the Blue/Green light rail lines, (no use to me on my daily commute) WE NEED TRAINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## caravanman (Jul 4, 2016)

Seems odd that in these days of computer aided design, and awareness of metal fatigue, etc, that such a fault could occur?

Also a bit worrying that 95% of the cars have been running with this fault undetected untill now, how can that be?

Ed.


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## PRR 60 (Jul 4, 2016)

To make matters even a little bit worse, the trucks are from Columbus Castings, just about the only domestic supplier of passenger car trucks. For cars with a "Buy America" requirement, they are all but a sole source supplier. The parent company of Columbus Castings is teetering on bankruptcy. There may be some question as to how responsive they will be to something that could be very expensive. BTW, Silverliner V cars are being used on the new Denver airport "A" line, and will be used when the "B" line to Westminster opens on July 26. No word on what Denver RTD is doing, although I suspect they are looking over their cars pretty carefully.

As for detecting cracks, even structurally significant cracking can sometimes be hard to see visually. It often takes a nondestructive examination method to find it, and you have to be looking in just the right location. There is also some period of time between when a crack has become significant (something other than superficial) and when it has propagated to the point of initiating a failure. Even the declaration of a "structurally significant" crack does not mean the part is about to fail.


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## jis (Jul 4, 2016)

Buy America bites again?


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## PRR 60 (Jul 4, 2016)

The latest report in Phillymag.com states that one car had a complete fracture of an equalizer bar of one truck on car 812, and further inspections showed cracks in virtually every truck. Major mess for SEPTA.

Phillymag


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 4, 2016)

Doesn't Congress and the FRA realize that not much is "Made in America!" anymore?

What little that is so called Manufacturing is actually Assembly of foreign sourced parts.

The Big 3 American Car Companies are actually less "American Made" than the various "Foreign" Cars that are assembled in plants all over the Country, mostly Non-Union plants in the South!


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## Palmetto (Jul 4, 2016)

jis said:


> Buy America bites again?


Yes, and a very protectionist policy if you ask me. Almost guarantees no competition, and that's not a good thing for the consumer.


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## Acela150 (Jul 4, 2016)

Rotem... Making junk and things wrong since 1970.. Congrats Septa! Kawasaki is laughing at you right now..


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## Dutchrailnut (Jul 4, 2016)

so your blaming Rotem for SEPTA specified trucks purchased from US (pa) manufacturer ??? let me guess your Trump supporter...


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## MARC Rider (Jul 4, 2016)

Oh boy, I was riding in a Silverliner V last week.


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## neroden (Jul 4, 2016)

PRR 60 said:


> To make matters even a little bit worse, the trucks are from Columbus Castings, just about the only domestic supplier of passenger car trucks.


I guess all passenger car trucks will be ordered from abroad from now on. Columbus Castings is quite clearly defunct and would not be a qualified supplier for most agencies at this point. Time to get out the Buy America waiver forms... since there are 0 suppliers.

It's one thing to apply protectionist tarriffs. But Buy America is just stupid.


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## Acela150 (Jul 5, 2016)

Dutchrailnut said:


> so your blaming Rotem for SEPTA specified trucks purchased from US (pa) manufacturer ??? let me guess your Trump supporter...


You haven't the slightest clue to the amount of BS that Hyundai Rotem had while building these pieces of TRASH... The crews hate them, maintenance crews hate them.

Prove me wrong. I can tell you the amount of times I've been on them and something goes wrong with them. Once to the point where the breakdown screwed up Septa's entire railroad. A set broke down in the middle of 16th Street JCT. Crossing over to the Norristown Branch.

And I mean call me crazy but Rotem had to build these cars 10,000 pounds over the designed weight. They should have made the appropriate adjustments so that such a thing wouldn't happen.

And again call me crazy but, Septa originally picked Rotem as the builder. Kawasaki put a lawsuit on Septa saying that Rotem didn't have the proper credentials for the winning bid.. Clearly they were spot on. Metro link can't use their Cab Cars.. MBTA had issues with their cars. Septa has had nothing but trouble from these units.

Granted these problems developed later but it's been rumored that Septa has been thinking of using these morons for the Silverliner 6 contract.. Which would be a horrible horrible idea. Ever see the welds on these cars? They look like a newborn did them. They're terrible.


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## Shawn Ryu (Jul 5, 2016)

neroden said:


> Uh-oh. Hyundai Rotem will have to replace the trucks. They're from some subcontractor, I don't know who...
> 
> This almost certainly affects the Denver cars as well.
> 
> Hyundai Rotem has already paid large penalties on this order due to being late. They've got to be losing money by now.


Harsh lesson for the future I hope.

ROTEM doesn't seem to have any issues in other countries to be fair. Vancouver is doing OK.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 5, 2016)

Amtrak has added service to the Keystones to help SEPTA.


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## jis (Jul 5, 2016)

Shawn Ryu said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Uh-oh. Hyundai Rotem will have to replace the trucks. They're from some subcontractor, I don't know who...
> ...


That is true. Rotem has delivered many hundred cars in several Asian countries and some in Europe with little problem. I have ridden Rotem cars in Malaysia and they are very nice AC Sleeper cars. Haven't ridden any of their EMUs.

The common factor in all these problems seems to be the US. I wonder what gives.


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## Eric S (Jul 5, 2016)

Hyundai-Rotem seems to have struggled mightily with recent US orders. But, as others have pointed out, it does seem to be more of a US-specific problem. And we've also seen CAF and Nippon-Sharyo struggle with US rail car orders.

This suggests to me that perhaps the combination of Buy America rules and US-specific regulations that make it practically impossible to order off-the-shelf equipment shares the blame in part (along with any specific problems with H-R). These same rules and regulations raise the cost of US passenger rail equipment significantly above that of Asian and European cars and locomotives.


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## Acela150 (Jul 5, 2016)

Let's keep in mind that the US has way more stringent standards then anywhere else in the world. That is my guess.


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## Caesar La Rock (Jul 5, 2016)

There are equipment in some countries that are abused much more then anything in the northeast portion of the US, yet they still hold up.


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## jis (Jul 5, 2016)

Acela150 said:


> Let's keep in mind that the US has way more stringent standards then anywhere else in the world. That is my guess.


Rotem issues have nothing to do with so called more stringent standards in the US. It has to do more with poor quality control, and specifically in the case of the truck issue, poor quality control in manufacturing at a true red, white and blue American company, not Rotem. So let us not kid ourselves and place the blame where it belongs instead of obfuscating.


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## fairviewroad (Jul 6, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Amtrak has added service to the Keystones to help SEPTA.


I saw mention of this on the SEPTA website, but Amtrak's website is mum (not that the Amtrak website is known for including info about developing situations). Do you have a sense of how much extra service? On the Harrisburg section only, or on the Trenton/NYP section too?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 6, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak has added service to the Keystones to help SEPTA.
> ...


I have no idea. I just happened to see it on the news as they tell people what alternatives are available. I'm so glad I don't work in Philly (as the only way I would is if the employer is within an easy walk of SEPTA rail).


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## benjibear (Jul 6, 2016)

Here is an article that discusses SEPTA looking to borrow equipment from NJ Transit, Amtrak, and MTA. It could be interesting seeing equipment on lines in Philly that you may not normally see.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/in-transit/Crowded-trains-begin-early-on-SEPTA-rail.html

Here is the info on the Amtrak added service. They are not adding trains, just an extra stop in Ardmore and extra capacity.

Amtrak will make four more stops at Ardmore - three inbound and one outbound - and add an extra car to six of the eight Keystone trains between New York and Harrisburg.

Passengers will need Amtraks ticket to ride on the trains.


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## Acela150 (Jul 6, 2016)

Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to spare. Not sure about NJT or MTA. Not to mention crews would have to qualify on the equipment. Would just make sense to not lease the equipment unless it will be out for say more then 4 months. Which is possible.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jul 7, 2016)

LIRR has no usable equipment, all cars require high level platforms and engines are proprietary to Bi-Levels and do not have PTC yet.

MN could send Bombardier cars, but cab cars and engines do not have PTC yet.

all MN/CDOT EMU's (M-8) are for high level platforms only and will not power on 25 hz.


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## fairviewroad (Jul 7, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > AmtrakBlue said:
> ...



According to this article, Amtrak's enhanced service consists of adding an additional car to selected Keystone departures, and adding a stop at Ardmore on a handful of trains. Many of the Keystones stop at Ardmore already, so Amtrak is basically filling a few rush hour gaps in with additional stops.

I wonder if Amtrak would consider adding some Keystone stops at Cornwells Heights on the Trenton line. It's an existing Amtrak stop but is currently used only for a small handful of daily departures. It would seem like an opportunity to add some capacity during this time period. But I suppose adding an additional stop on a train along the NEC could create a scheduling difficulty up the line somewhere.


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## jis (Jul 7, 2016)

Very informative article on the complexities of determining who is responsible for what in this fiasco....

http://planphilly.com/articles/2016/07/06/silverliner-playbook-what-septa-s-contract-with-hyundai-rotem-means-for-fixing-the-regional-rail-mess


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 8, 2016)

You should see something happen by next week. h34r:


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 8, 2016)

Thirdrail7 said:


> You should see something happen by next week. h34r:


http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/07/08/septa-schedule-additional-trains/

Trains from Amtrak, NJT and MARC with more in the works.


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## fairviewroad (Jul 8, 2016)

Nice upgrade for a few lucky travelers that get an Amfleet seat for the price of a SEPTA ticket, though I suspect most people would just rather have the regular schedule back in effect ASAP.


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## jis (Jul 8, 2016)

They could get spoilt with the idea of having toilets on trains


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 11, 2016)

While passing through Trenton on my commute this morning, I saw the departure board had three rush hour Trenton to Philly SEPTA trains listed from the new SEPTA schedule that started today: the 6:53, 6:58, and 7:14.

When they announced the 6:53, they said it would be making all stops on the way to Philly.

I saw the 6:53 SEPTA come in while I was getting my NJT train, and it was of course one of the old ones, but the cars were SEPTA cars, no NJT or anyone else.

I will see what this afternoon looks like and report back (something to keep me busy at TRE while I wait for my light rail connection  .)


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## fairviewroad (Jul 11, 2016)

jis said:


> They could get spoilt with the idea of having toilets on trains



LOL, I know, right? But if these trains are as crowded as reports indicate, they might have trouble navigating down the aisle to the loo, and once they get back their seat might be taken!

Edit: I wonder if the Amfleet toilets will even be operational. Would SEPTA even have the capabilities of servicing them? I suppose the lease agreement could have Amtrak servicing them during a layover at 30th Street or something like that.


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## jis (Jul 11, 2016)

I bet the Amtrak equipment will get serviced at Race St. every so often. These are apparently being used mostly for weekday rush hour services.


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## benjibear (Jul 11, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > They could get spoilt with the idea of having toilets on trains
> ...


I read something today that Septa was handling maintenance for MARC equipment and that Amtrak and NJ Transit were going to do there own maintenance. As far as the toilets, they should not be used.


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## Acela150 (Jul 11, 2016)

benjibear said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Well.. They're being used..


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## benjibear (Jul 12, 2016)

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/SEPTA-spending-750000-on-leased-fleet.html

_"Per week, SEPTA is leasing five coaches from the Maryland Area Regional Commuter train service for $19,462 per week; one locomotive and eight coaches from NJ Transit for $15,570 per week; and two locomotives and five coaches from Amtrak for $16,375 per week."_

Sounds like MARC is getting a good price for the use of their equipment. On the other hand, it sounds like Amtrak and NJ Transit is getting screwed. From what I read yesterday that SEPTA was going to maintain MARC equipment and NJT and Amtrak were going to handle their own maintenance, it makes it even worse.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 12, 2016)

As promised, here is my report on the SEPTA Trenton to Philly line, for this morning and yesterday evening.

I saw what must have been the 6:53 SEPTA coming in this morning at Trenton. I counted six cars (all the old SEPTA cars), which I'm sure is longer than usual (although I've never had any reason to count them before, so don't know for sure). It came in on Track 1, but all the SEPTA commuters were waiting on Track 5 as usual. My NJT train left before I could hear any announcements about it.

Rush hour yesterday evening was, I'm sorry to say, much worse for Trenton to Philly commuters. They have cut out the 4:16, which many people connected to (unless our connecting NJT train was late). The only one listed on the departure board was the 4:58. Looking at the new schedule, they have made evening rush hour just the same as regular nonrush: one an hour.

I must be missing something here, but I don't understand why there would be three trains within half an hour of each other (two just five minutes apart) from Trenton to Philly in the morning rush hour, but only one an hour from Trenton to Philly in the evening. It does not seem logical.


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## fairviewroad (Jul 13, 2016)

The Inquirer Editorial Board weighs in:

Inquirer editorial: Why SEPTA trains looked like trouble long before they arrived



> The next time SEPTA awards such a crucial contract, the benefits for local unions and vendors - as well as lobbyists and politicians - should take a backseat to competence.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Jul 13, 2016)

fairviewroad--

Thanks for posting the Inquirer article. Good background on what went wrong.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 13, 2016)

fairviewroad said:


> The Inquirer Editorial Board weighs in:
> 
> Inquirer editorial: Why SEPTA trains looked like trouble long before they arrived
> 
> ...


Lots of luck with that Inquirer, the gravy train always rolls on in Big Cities, especially in the NE where it's an art form!


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## warrenwarner (Jul 16, 2016)

before new cars are ordered, why arent old cars being fixed?? at least they could restore some older cars to be kept in back stock for when things go wrong. what a mess


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## Dutchrailnut (Jul 18, 2016)

the cost of even maintaining 30 or 40 spare cars would run in to many millions of $$$, not something transit agency's can afford.

if multi agencies would have compatible equipment it would be doable to each have like 15 spare cars to lend to each other in time of need.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jul 20, 2016)

The weld .

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_top/387535751.html


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## jis (Aug 17, 2016)

Meanwhile Columbus Casting which used to be Buckeye is getting shut down completely, its assets dissipated and its land repurposed as a real estate project.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html#

It would be interesting to see what alternative US source is found for the cast parts that Columbus supplied to passenger car manufacturers in the immediate future.

For example all the trucks in the Rotem Silverliners and the CAF Viewliner II's use Columbus parts in their trucks. Nippon Sharyo is also a heavy user of Columbus parts.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 17, 2016)

That's more Bad News about the VLIIs using truck parts from Columbus!


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## jis (Aug 17, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> That's more Bad News about the VLIIs using truck parts from Columbus!


I suspect both Rotem and CAF have all the units that they need for the Sivlerliner and Viewliner II contracts so far. An issue will arise if someone were to exercise some options. Meanwhile, who knows what the situation is with Nippon Sharyo?


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 17, 2016)

But what about spares and repairs/defects down the line???


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## jis (Aug 17, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> But what about spares and repairs/defects down the line???


That will be interesting.... There are other casting manufacturers. It should be noted that SEPTA specifically asked for using Columbus rejecting out of hand the other choice that was available. But any of the other manufacturers will have to retool to produce this set of products, which will take some time.


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## PRR 60 (Aug 17, 2016)

The replacement equalizer beams for the Silverliner V's are said to be coming from Canton Drop Forge. It is also my understanding that Canton was an approved alternate supplier in the original Silverliner V bidding spec.


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## Dutchrailnut (Sep 1, 2016)

ok here is latest ? with first cars returning to service.

The replacement beams are made by PennFab, Inc., in an industrial 

park off Byberry Rd. in Bensalem, PA: 

> PennFab Inc., a Bensalem-based company, has cut 340 of the 480 
> equalizer beams needed to replace the flawed parts. The 380-pound, 
> 9-foot-long beams are cut from plates of T1 high-strength steel with 
> a white-hot plasma cutter, then are machined, tested, and painted. 
> The company has been making 60 equalizer beams a week, said PennFab’s 
> president, Michael Mabin. 
> 
> “We commit the entire resources to our company, and that’s what makes 
> it get done,” he said. 
> 
> The beams have feet from Hyundai Rotem attached at either end with 
> pins and then are sent to Kinkisharyo International in Jersey City, 
> where the beams are attached to trucks. The last step, attaching the 
> repaired trucks under the Silverliner V cars, happens at SEPTA’s 
> Overbrook maintenance facility. The process, from factory to finished 
> car, takes about 12 days, Knueppel said. He expected all 120 
> Silverliner cars to be back in service by mid-November. 

-Philadelphia Inquirer 

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/SEPTA-rail-cars-return.html


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 1, 2016)

Thanks Dutch! That's the way it should be done in All factories, instead of the take forever and turn out shoddy stuff system that we mostly have in this Country now!


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## PRR 60 (Sep 1, 2016)

PennFab is also the supplier that provided the replacement catenary structures for Amtrak following the #188 derailment in record time. I worked with PennFab, and they are a first-rate vendor.


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## fairviewroad (Sep 2, 2016)

In other news, with the start of the school year and busier fall travel season, SEPTA is supplementing its currently-limited Regional Rail service with bus service between select stations and (in most cases) the Orange Line subway. Depending on where someone is ultimately headed, this could actually be a more convenient option.

http://septa.org/service/contingency.html


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Sep 2, 2016)

Dutchrailnut said:


> ok here is latest ? with first cars returning to service.
> 
> The replacement beams are made by PennFab, Inc., in an industrial
> 
> park off Byberry Rd. in Bensalem, PA:


Good old Bensalem I lived there for a long time.


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## Dutchrailnut (Sep 2, 2016)

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/09/01/septa-silverliner-v-repair-return/#mmFwQZf2qdWuh7P0.01


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## fairviewroad (Sep 29, 2016)

Enough of the cars are back in service that SEPTA is resuming its full regional rail schedule starting Monday, October 3rd. Some trains will still be shorter than normal, but the full schedule is back in effect.

http://septa.org/service/rail-service-returns.html


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## Mystic River Dragon (Sep 30, 2016)

This is very good news for the commuters I travel with from Princeton Junction who connect from NJT to SEPTA at Trenton  . They have sorely missed their 4:16 out of Trenton, which is usually a good connection, and have had to wait at Trenton for nearly 45 minutes for the next SEPTA train.


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 8, 2018)

jis said:


> They could get spoilt with the idea of having toilets on trains


Here's a question I have. What did the passengers think of the leased equipment? Did they prefer it to the Silverliners or Bombs?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 8, 2018)

really!!!   opening up a tread from over 2 years ago ???


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## Ryan (Dec 8, 2018)

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the discussion.


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## jis (Dec 8, 2018)

I only have very faint memory of what transpired back then, so cannot really give an informed answer to the question posed.


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