# More Photography Harassment in Maryland



## Ryan (Apr 2, 2014)

http://odenton.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/commuter-taking-photos-alarms-passengers-removed-from-train-at-odenton



> Passengers on the No. 419 MARC train asked that a man photographing the scene be removed from the train Tuesday morning at the Odenton station.
> 
> The self-described train enthusiast was taking a series of photographs, then was briefly detained by federal agents after raising concerns among fellow passengers, reports The Baltimore Sun.
> 
> ...


Know your rights and stand up for them!

This is extremely disturbing, as this has happened to me (on the Washington Metro), and I routinely shoot at Odenton. I've never heard of the TSA invading Odenton before, not happy about that part either. Wonder what they were up to.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 2, 2014)

I rarely photograph aircraft or trains anymore due to routine harassment by security personnel and police officers. In previous years we actually had observation areas built into major transportation structures where you could watch and photograph as much as you wanted. Of course that was before we became scared of our own shadow. These days anyone who is curious and dares to photograph our transportation systems is considered a threat to national security. This guy did *not* resist and managed to say all the right things but if you really make a point of standing up for your rights and don't say enough or say the wrong thing or **** off the wrong person then who knows what might happen to you. I think we need to make the ability to travel freely a protected right. Otherwise taking a picture may get you banned from traveling. Maybe not for life, but long enough to lose your job, and who among us wouldn't be impacted by that?


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## Ryan (Apr 2, 2014)

I "spoke" with Rafi on Facebook, he's going to bring this up at the next Rider's Advisory Council meeting. I intend to be there to hear what the MTA folks have to say and let them know my thoughts on the matter.

I also sent the MTA feedback using their website. If anyone else that feels strongly about this, you can provide feedback here: http://mta.maryland.gov/contact-mta


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## George Harris (Apr 2, 2014)

As a railroad oriented civil engineer I have taken pictures of track, trains, bridges, cuts, fills, stations, signals, yards, and everything else railroad related for over 40 years. There has been specific emphasis on details of track. These pictures are of facilities in somewhere above 10 states and 9 foreign countries. And then there are the books and technical standards that I have collected over the years. No, I am not a spy. I work with this stuff.

Given the current paranoia I would probably be locked up for the rest of my life. Its is a catch 22 if you try to be discreet about it. If blatant, many people see you and somebody may go into panic. If discreet, then you may have to explain to law enforcement why you are acting sneakily.

I see all this silly stuff as making it difficult for both the enthusiast and the professional, and not really doing anything to improve security.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 2, 2014)

Wow, a person taking pics of trains in broad daylight is a "threat"???

Hate to say it but all the scare talk drummedvup by the paranoid right wing since 911 reminds me of how it was in the Communist Captive Nations during the Cold War! (And I was there in East Germany during this time)

All the Security Theater and LE BS being drummed into the traveling sheep is scarey! Be afraid, be very afraid of these Facist goons and the paranoid travelers who can't wait to turn in "suspicious" looking fellow travelers who are doing nothing more than exercising their rights! Ben Franklin was really right when he wrote about Safety and Security!!!!


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## PerRock (Apr 3, 2014)

I'm failing to see the big deal over this. He wasn't arrested, the report doesn't mention him being harassed. the VIPR team asked him to step off the train (he complied), detained him (that's standard procedure, it was even before 9-11), questioned him, and let him on his way. If the big deal is that it was a VIPR team, it sounds like it was really just the closest law enforcement entity. They were at the station already, they got to question him. The police have always had the right to detain you if they have reasonable suspicion that you may be doing something illegal, the only thing that's really changed since 9-11 is that police (and the public, thanks to the 'See something, Say something' campaigns) are paying more attention to photographers. It comes with the territory, it always has, it just does more now.

peter


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## MattW (Apr 3, 2014)

PerRock said:


> I'm failing to see the big deal over this. He wasn't arrested, the report doesn't mention him being harassed. the VIPR team asked him to step off the train (he complied), detained him (that's standard procedure, it was even before 9-11), questioned him, and let him on his way. If the big deal is that it was a VIPR team, it sounds like it was really just the closest law enforcement entity. They were at the station already, they got to question him. The police have always had the right to detain you if they have reasonable suspicion that you may be doing something illegal, the only thing that's really changed since 9-11 is that police (and the public, thanks to the 'See something, Say something' campaigns) are paying more attention to photographers. It comes with the territory, it always has, it just does more now.
> 
> peter


You said it yourself, "reasonable suspicion." There was none.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 3, 2014)

PerRock said:


> The only thing that's really changed since 9-11 is that police (and the public, thanks to the 'See something, Say something' campaigns) are paying more attention to photographers. It comes with the territory, it always has, it just does more now.


There are actually many things that have changed since 9/11, in many different ways, but speaking in absolute terms like this you seem to be going out of your way to make it clear that you're not interested in hearing about it. I have no idea where you get your news or how close you've ever been to actually testing your own freedoms, but it doesn't sound like you have much if any personal experience to relate to.


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## Alice (Apr 3, 2014)

I'd be pretty pissed off to be pulled off a train so I had to take a later train, especially if I were on a tight schedule (like on my way to work as this man was), or if the next train was a long wait.

This is just like the airport nonsense, it looks like somebody is doing something but doesn't increase security. If I thought a terrorist was on my train, I'd get off at a minimum.

I wonder how those uncomfortable passengers would react to Google Glass (even off) and other wearable tech.


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## cirdan (Apr 3, 2014)

George Harris said:


> As a railroad oriented civil engineer I have taken pictures of track, trains, bridges, cuts, fills, stations, signals, yards, and everything else railroad related for over 40 years. There has been specific emphasis on details of track. These pictures are of facilities in somewhere above 10 states and 9 foreign countries. And then there are the books and technical standards that I have collected over the years. No, I am not a spy. I work with this stuff.
> 
> Given the current paranoia I would probably be locked up for the rest of my life. Its is a catch 22 if you try to be discreet about it. If blatant, many people see you and somebody may go into panic. If discreet, then you may have to explain to law enforcement why you are acting sneakily.
> 
> I see all this silly stuff as making it difficult for both the enthusiast and the professional, and not really doing anything to improve security.


I'm not professional, I'm just a railfan. But I have several thosand pictures on my harddrive (and boxes of negatives going back before that), many showing details of track, details of station architecture, details of locomotives, freight cars, signals, fences, railings, signs, crossing gates and other railroad and associated equipment. A lot of it I take just out of interest or for reference for my model railroad (if you want to correctly recreate the way rust and dirt attaches to things you need reference photos to get it right). Sometimes this involves photographing the same detail from all avialable angles. If the police ever inspect my hard disk I might have some explaining to do.


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## PerRock (Apr 3, 2014)

MattW said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > I'm failing to see the big deal over this. He wasn't arrested, the report doesn't mention him being harassed. the VIPR team asked him to step off the train (he complied), detained him (that's standard procedure, it was even before 9-11), questioned him, and let him on his way. If the big deal is that it was a VIPR team, it sounds like it was really just the closest law enforcement entity. They were at the station already, they got to question him. The police have always had the right to detain you if they have reasonable suspicion that you may be doing something illegal, the only thing that's really changed since 9-11 is that police (and the public, thanks to the 'See something, Say something' campaigns) are paying more attention to photographers. It comes with the territory, it always has, it just does more now.
> ...


The 'reasonable suspicion' is that he could be a terrorist. Sure you're not going to like it, but that is what it is.



Devil's Advocate said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > The only thing that's really changed since 9-11 is that police (and the public, thanks to the 'See something, Say something' campaigns) are paying more attention to photographers. It comes with the territory, it always has, it just does more now.
> ...


I've been stopped a number of times for photographing trains. Most times I've been treated respectfully & after telling them I was a railfan & just taking some pictures. The police usually informed me of where the right of way began (so I wan't trespassing) and left me to carry on.

peter


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2014)

PerRock said:


> The 'reasonable suspicion' is that he could be a terrorist. Sure you're not going to like it, but that is what it is.


Nope. Suspecting a regular commuter of being a terrorist for taking pictures is wildly unreasonable.



PerRock said:


> I'm failing to see the big deal over this. He wasn't arrested, the report doesn't mention him being harassed.


You must have a different definition of "harassed" than I do. Getting pulled off a train and made late for work for no good reason certainly counts.


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## rrdude (Apr 3, 2014)

Yeah, PerRock, I gotta agree with most of posters who think this SUX big time, it does. "Police State" we are not, yet, and hopefully the youth in this county will wake up b4 it gets there. If not, it might be up to us old timers Jim to get "Back to the streets" an re-live our youth in a different way............

If you are just taking pix, and a LE asks you, fine, (kind of) but if they make you miss your train...........

As one poster said, more employees under you means more power, that is one reason TSA and the like have expanded so fast, once the horse is outta the gate, real hard to reel them back in......... (how was that for folksy sayings?)


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## PerRock (Apr 3, 2014)

No where did it say they forced him off the train. According to the article, they asked him to step of the train and he complied. I have no problems with spitting in my coffee over someone being forced to do something for taking pictures. My point is that this story doesn't really have big injustice against the photographer.

Peter


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2014)

What do you think would have happened had he not complied?


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## jis (Apr 3, 2014)

RyanS said:


> What do you think would have happened had he not complied?


Someone with sufficiently rose colored glasses and sufficient implicit faith in the good behavior of law enforcement under all circumstances is unlikely to see this line of argument as a valid one I am afraid. Of course being the nice guys they are they would've said "Aw shucks, carry on, we were just checking".


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## Railroad Bill (Apr 3, 2014)

Gee, I was going to take pictures of MARC trains next week while waiting for our train from Edgewood to DC.

Perhaps I should place my camera in luggage, walk in a straight line to the platform, and salute those who fear I am a terrorist. :angry:

It is so sad what is happening to our country. The terrorists win when our gov't takes away our freedom to assemble, and move about freely without trespassing. If I was asked to leave my scheduled train for no legitimate reason, I would be very upset. Hopefully not arrested..

I am rarely critical of those who post on our forum, but there are some here who need to wake up before they give up more rights to a potential police state. :help:


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## George Harris (Apr 3, 2014)

Let's pause and take a look at how things have changed over the last 50 plus years: Remember WW2 conditions? Yet all this emphasis on carry photo identification, register your gun, and many other things did nor for quite a few years thereafter. How do you think these 16 year olds and younger got themselves in the military during that time? They did not have birth certificates! They simply said, I am 18 or whatever. Carry a photo ID? There weren't any, except maybe passports. My original driver's licence did not have a picture. Your driver's license had a random description. Male, female, race, hair color eye color, weight, height, and most of that was what you told them or the person issuing the license saw when he looked at you while typing the form out. This "papers please" or show your ID was regarded as something done in dictatorships. During the war years there was some form of control of people's movements, but that was primarily because of insufficient transport capacity availability. After that I know first hand that train tickets, bus tickets DID NOT have a name on them. Pullman tickets probably did, but it would simply be what you told them it was, no ID check. In other words people's movements were not tracked and could not be tracked. Now you can't even get on the Dog without giving your name.

Unacompanied minors? Give the porter a tip to keep up with him, ask the conductor to straighten him out if he acts up, and woe be to the person that tries to mess with him/her. They better hope the law gets to them first.

The original start of checking out airplane baggage and people getting on planes had nothing to do with "terrorism" The cause was a couple of cases where planes were blown up by planted explosives that were planted by someone wanting to collect life insurance off of a relative that was traveling, or maybe just trying to do in a spouse (usuallly a wife) they wanted rid of.

One step at a time we are losing freedom.


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## Ryan (Apr 3, 2014)

It's funny that you mention that, George.

Here's one of the comments from the Patch article I linked above:



> Kolo Jezdec April 02, 2014 at 02:07 PM
> 
> My grandfather was German, named Adolph. When WWII started, he had some visitors who confiscated his camera and ordered him not to travel more than 15 miles from (in Pittsburgh) w/o permission. ****At least he was no put in some camp out west...****I thought we were beyond such foolishness.


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## NW cannonball (Apr 3, 2014)

George Harris said:


> Let's pause and take a look at how things have changed over the last 50 plus years: Remember WW2 conditions? Yet all this emphasis on carry photo identification, register your gun, and many other things did nor for quite a few years thereafter. How do you think these 16 year olds and younger got themselves in the military during that time? They did not have birth certificates! They simply said, I am 18 or whatever. Carry a photo ID? There weren't any, except maybe passports. My original driver's licence did not have a picture. Your driver's license had a random description. Male, female, race, hair color eye color, weight, height, and most of that was what you told them or the person issuing the license saw when he looked at you while typing the form out. This "papers please" or show your ID was regarded as something done in dictatorships. During the war years there was some form of control of people's movements, but that was primarily because of insufficient transport capacity availability. After that I know first hand that train tickets, bus tickets DID NOT have a name on them. Pullman tickets probably did, but it would simply be what you told them it was, no ID check. In other words people's movements were not tracked and could not be tracked. Now you can't even get on the Dog without giving your name.
> 
> Unacompanied minors? Give the porter a tip to keep up with him, ask the conductor to straighten him out if he acts up, and woe be to the person that tries to mess with him/her. They better hope the law gets to them first.
> 
> ...


Agree.

Part of the reason for recent ID requirements is that airlines maximize revenue by having non-transferable non-refundable tickets.

Likewise, the "unaccompanied minors" surcharges is just a "revenue enhancement" thing. Who ever would have thought that a marginally competent minor, or adult., would have to pay a "protection" surcharge just to ride a public carrier - which they know how to do already.


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## George Harris (Apr 3, 2014)

RyanS said:


> It's funny that you mention that, George.
> 
> Here's one of the comments from the Patch article I linked above:
> 
> ...


Yes, there was a certain amount of paranoia about those that were ethnically German or Japanese. It was not altogether undeserved. If you had family ties back in the home country they had governements quite willing to say we want information from your US relatives, and if not YOU will suffer. You being able to say, I can't get anything from him because he is in a detention camp or being under surveillance could save your life. For many people if it is your country or your family that is not an easy choice, and for quite a few poeple, and not just them, family first is no question at all. In my early working years one of the guys was ethnically Japanese, probably 3rd generation or so American who was born in one of these detention camps. His comment was that his family did not have that much negative to say about it. Most of the noise we now hear about that is from people a couple of generations removed from the reality.

There was a fair amount of paranioa during the war years, not all unjustified. Ever hear of the Japanese balloon bombs? Quite a few made across the Pacific, but The Japanese never knew it so they gave up on the concept. The road signs were removed in the east coast states. The Navajo code talkers were definitely secret during the war, but every navy guy talked about them from the minute the war was over, so it was well known among the WW2 and immediate post war generation.


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## Ryan (Apr 5, 2014)

It's a good thing this guy didn't have a tripod!

http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2014/04/03/baltimore-police-investigate-incident-at-kipp-academy/



> BALTIMORE (WJZ)School scare. A Baltimore City school was placed on lockdown after a report with a person with a gun on campus. Its the second school lockdown in our area just this week.
> 
> Meghan McCorkell has more on what happened.
> 
> ...


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## siberianmo (Apr 5, 2014)

Good Morning (here in Missouri),

Just had to add my two-cents to this seemingly never-ending harassment by "authority" for those of us who pay the fares and take some snaps of arriving trains and of passing scenery while aboard.

I have thousands repeat thousands of photos of my trips between Kirkwood and Kansas City aboard the Missouri River Runner (and forerunner "Mule") over more than 2 decades - at stations, from the rear vestibule and through the windows at my seat. Never once have been told to stop.

On my last trip aboard Acela from WashDC to Boston, one of the crew tried to have me arrested - yes arrested - for taking photos of the car I was traveling in before departure. Fortunately, all of that ended with only ruffled feathers (mine) as I produced a copy of a letter from Mr. Boardman about Amtrak's photo policy along with some convincing identification that I was surely no threat. Anyway, it could have gotten ugly in a New York minute, but did not.

When my train arrived in Boston, I did "my thing" and snapped off photos of the consist from the platform along with many others of trains at idle as well as shots from within South Station. No problems.

On a recent trip aboard St. Louis MetroLink, someone from across the platform where I was standing, began shouting in my direction to put away my camera, otherwise I would be arrested - yes arrested. This Bozo apparently worked for Metro, but that is all I could tell from my vantage point. Once again I carried along a copy of Metro's policy regarding picture taking - a permit of sorts for a specific day.

My rail travels average out at 12 thousand miles per year and I snap off photos at a rate exceeding my heartbeat, or so I have been told. Once I am no longer permitted to take shots of the consist I am traveling or of passing scenery, I stop spending my money on what should be an enjoyable experience.

Harassment by any other name is something we rail travelers should never tolerate or roll over for. Report it and always cover your stern section by availing yourself of the most current photo policy document from whatever rail carrier you are traveling. Worked for me.

Of course - and this goes without saying, but I will say it anyway - be considerate of fellow passengers who may not want their images captured by a stranger while aboard or at the platform and by no means snap off shots of crew members, without their concurrence.


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## Ryan (Apr 5, 2014)

siberianmo said:


> Of course - and this goes without saying, but I will say it anyway - be considerate of fellow passengers who may not want their images captured by a stranger while aboard or at the platform and by no means snap off shots of crew members, without their concurrence.


While that's polite, there's certainly no requirement that you do so.

No expectation of privacy when you're out in public.


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## siberianmo (Apr 6, 2014)

Ryan - Good point and understood.

However, I suppose if we all did only what is required (which would be amazing in and of itself!) perhaps society would be worse than it has devolved to. What I mean I pefer to lean toward the considerate side.

One should be aware of whatever the policies are when in someone elses domain - in this case at the station or aboard the train. Like it or not, it is hard to argue a point when being escorted from the premises.

Make no mistake about it, I am on the side of common sense and no way, no how support over zealousness on either side.


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## Ryan (Apr 9, 2014)

Exactly a week later, I get this unsurprising and completely worthless reply from the MTA:



> Mr. Stavely,
> 
> Thank you for contacting the MARC Train Service. We appreciate your comments, but the TSA and Viper teams utmost priority is the safety of all of our passengers and crews.
> 
> ...


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 9, 2014)

You photo geeks look dangerous to me out there taking pictures of Trains and Stations! Help!

Of course this is pathetic considering the millions of people who ride on the NEC! And the Corporate Boilerplate is also pathetic, that person needs to get a real rail job and do some work!


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## Ryan (Apr 10, 2014)

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

My response:



> Donna,
> 
> I understand the need for "safety first" (even if I disagree with some of the TSA's methods). Photography does nothing to compromise safety, and referring passengers to the TSA for taking photographs is unnecessary, particularly when viewed in the light of MTA's very open photo policy.
> 
> ...


Today's response:



> Mr. Stavely,
> 
> Photography is always welcomed at the MTA/MARC, however, in this particular incident there were other MARC passengers who felt uncomfortable and had a concern about security issues. These customers reported it to the conductor, who in turn reported the suspicious activity to the TSA personnel and VIPR team, who just happened to be out at the Odenton Station performing a security sweep.
> 
> As we always convey to our customers, "If you see something, say something", because we want to keep our customers in and around transit as safe as possible. Once they were able to check the customer out, they determined that in fact, he was just a train enthusiast taking harmless pictures. In this day and age we have to take our security serious, and in this particular situation, the TSA and VIPR team were just following their protocol by ruling out any possible security issues.


So photography is welcomed, but if you do it, stand by to be questioned and possibly put off of the train. Doesn't sound very welcoming to me.


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## jis (Apr 10, 2014)

The usual idiotic bureaucratic double speak where it is perfectly OK for two consecutive sentence to contradict each other at least in spirit if not the letter too.

A small aside..... in our formal modeling work, we have worked on a standard for expressing business rules in a restricted form of English, the restrictions being mainly to make every expression in that subset language convertible to a precise statement in diontic logic (a logic that allows for the concepts of obligation, prohibition, and permission - important ones for expressing business rules and statements of legal nature). The standard is called "Semantics for Business Vocabulary and Rules. Anyway, someone had the temerity to try to express a small portion of a CFR section using this, and in just 4 pages of the stuff they found `15 outright provable contradictions just within those four pages, and yet it is that sort of stuff that governs the behavior of our government bureaucracy all around us. They are so trained to write such nonsense that they can't even see the stupidity of this stuff anymore. This was brought to the attention of the GSA, and since then they have actually decided to fund a small project to document the level and pervasiveness of this problem. As for what might come of it is of course a different matter.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 10, 2014)

RyanS said:


> I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
> 
> My response:
> 
> ...


Next response to her should be:

If other passengers "complain", then have the conductor take the passenger in question to another car and question him there. If everything seems to be in order, have the passenger sit in a different car then he was originally sitting in. If "police" need to be "called", have the police ride the train while questioning the "suspect" rather than take the "suspect" off the train.

I would think that any terriorist that is doing photography would not be an immediate threat to passengers. The reason for the photography would be to aid in planning something for a later date, therefore, it should be safe to question the suspect on the train.

<will start reading Odenton area newspapers to watch for Ryan's name to appear> h34r: :help:


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## SarahZ (Apr 10, 2014)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Next response to her should be:
> 
> If other passengers "complain", then have the conductor take the passenger in question to another car and question him there. If everything seems to be in order, have the passenger sit in a different car then he was originally sitting in. If "police" need to be "called", have the police ride the train while questioning the "suspect" rather than take the "suspect" off the train.
> 
> ...


Precisely.


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## cirdan (Apr 11, 2014)

AmtrakBlue said:


> I would think that any terriorist that is doing photography would not be an immediate threat to passengers. The reason for the photography would be to aid in planning something for a later date, therefore, it should be safe to question the suspect on the train.


Maybe they're scared stray photons from the camera could cause irreversible damage to trains and passengers.


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## neroden (Apr 13, 2014)

PerRock said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> > You said it yourself, "reasonable suspicion." There was none.
> ...


That's not reasonable suspicion, that's lunacy. You could be a terrorist! Look, you're talking about terrorism on a website! Terrorist!


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## SarahZ (Apr 13, 2014)

If that's "reasonable suspicion", then every tourist taking photos of the Sears Tower and Golden Gate Bridge should be questioned.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 13, 2014)

Thanks for following up Ryan. Although the response was borderline meaningless at least you did what you could to get the point across. If you want to take it further it might be worthwhile to write an op-ed in the local paper, assuming you still have one.


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## Ryan (Apr 18, 2014)

Final (hopefully!) follow up.

Attended a MARC Rider's Advisory Council meeting yesterday (I was a member from 2009-2010 and had to resign when I took this job since I didn't commute on the train anymore).

Fascinating meeting with a lot of good information (I may start a thread on "What's up at MARC?" separately). I was able to raise my issue and learned that the Amtrak Chief of Police found out about the incident and sent a memo out the next day reminding conductors of the acceptability of personal photography. After the meeting, I got to chat a little more, and it seems that Polly Hanson (who succeeded John O'Connor, made famous when he threw the TSA off Amtrak property after the Savannah VIPER team incident) is in lock step with Mr. O'Connor's attitudes with respect to the rights of passengers (which is an amazing breath of fresh air when compared to the attitudes of many other LEOs).

Apparently the conductor in question was also in an incredibly difficult position - many different passengers approached him in a literal panic about the photographer for some reason. When they pulled into Odenton and the TSA goons were standing there, referring the issue to them was really the only move he had (which gets back to my larger issue that the TSA causes more issues than they solve).

Overall, I'm very much satisfied with the outcome of this. The appropriate message was sent and seems to have been received. I'm sure that this isn't the end of harassment of photographers by a long shot, but each time this happens affords us the opportunity to stand up and assert our rights, so yay for that!


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## Green Maned Lion (May 3, 2014)

I agree. The passengers complaining about the photographer should be removed from the train and questioned, preferably by a licensed and qualified psychologist.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 4, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I agree. The passengers complaining about the photographer should be removed from the train and questioned, preferably by a licensed and qualified psychologist.


That kind of attitude would make us no better than them.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 4, 2014)

Dude, if you refuse to laugh, you'll never be better than anything. It's how I survive.


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## MattW (May 4, 2014)

Who's laughing? I think it's a great idea, turn the tables and see how these scaredy-cats feel about being subjected to a government shakedown for doing nothing illegal.


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## oregon pioneer (May 4, 2014)

Ryan, thank you very much for taking the time, and making the effort, to stand up for the rights of all train passengers.


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## ajlordnikon (Nov 20, 2014)

Had a similar run in at DC Union Station with a MARC employee, on P877, Brunswick line, three years ago. At the time I was returning home from my job as an editor for a Washington Post newspaper at the Navy Yard. Was on the platform when the conductor, [name redacted] threatened to arrest me for photographing one of the new MP36 engines that was on the platform next to my train, claiming that, "I would post the picture online where it could be accessed by terrorist".

I then stated Amtrak's policy pertaining to photography at DC Union and even pulled out a copy of the document to which he replied, he would have me arrested by Amtrak police for trespassing, despite having a valid monthly ticket. I informed him that he will also miss his train as I will personally ensure he is held by the police as well while we worked this out with the appropriate Amtrak and MARC management.

Now, mind you, I had a small laptop bag on my shoulder, and a little Fuji X100 camera with me. (as opposed to my full-size Nikon D3s with all that huge f/2.8 glass), so it was not as if I had a huge monster professional camera or anything more han even a normal tourist wouldn't carry.

Not sure if either my Navy issued WaPo press credentials were showing, or my NARP ambassador badge was visible, but he decided not to call it after a stern warning after noticing something on my messenger bag. Since, I was already having a bad day, I decided I was sick of my rights being stepped on again in DC for doing my job and wasn't going to let it go, so easily.

On the train, I got his name, and immediately contacted Malcom Kenton, NARP (I serve as an ambassador at the NARP booth at Union) as well Mickey Osterreicher, General Council for NPPA. Needless to say, by the time I got to Point of Rocks, both Amtrak, and MARC were investigating as well as the yard master for Union.

By the end of the week, I had received calls from Amtrak HQ offering an official apology, and then from MARC with an apology along with stating that the conductor who is now retired was sternly reminded by MARC that even as a CSX employee he must follow Amtrak policy at DC Union.

Long story short, I did seven years in the Coast Guard before going to WaPo so I've been on the other side of the whole terrorism thing in DHS, but at the same time, I do not recall ever signing off on my rights not to be harassed either for the hell of it. It saddens me to think what will happen if there ever was another attack, because it people were really willing to give up their freedoms that first year after 9/11; people will do the same thing again.

It's become a sad time to be a railfan.

But, it's not all bad news either. A year later, I had a trip to Pittsburgh, and not only did I have no trouble getting a picture of my train, but station staff and employees jumped in with big smiling faces and wanting to be in the picture.


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## Ryan (Nov 21, 2014)

Welcome, AJ!

Thanks for sharing your story, and thanks even more for standing up for your rights and ensuring that the now-retired conductor was re-educated. Your story matches perfectly with my personal experience with WMATA, and the MARC incident that spawned this thread.

It's depressing that so many front line employees feel like they can just make up whatever rules they want, especially when (like in this case) they're in direct opposition to the policies of their employers.


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## jis (Nov 21, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Welcome, AJ!
> 
> Thanks for sharing your story, and thanks even more for standing up for your rights and ensuring that the now-retired conductor was re-educated. Your story matches perfectly with my personal experience with WMATA, and the MARC incident that spawned this thread.
> 
> It's depressing that so many front line employees feel like they can just make up whatever rules they want, especially when (like in this case) they're in direct opposition to the policies of their employers.


The sense of euphoria that flows from misbegotten sense of power can be quite intoxicating unfortunately. Most of these guys probably have not even bothered to complete the homework of reading the actual rules that they were given during their training, if there was any training on the matter at all. So they just make up whatever makes them feel good in terms doing something they think is important, never mind the rules and law.


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## Peter KG6LSE (Dec 21, 2014)

ajlordnikon said:


> Had a similar run in at DC Union Station with a MARC employee, on P877, Brunswick line, three years ago. At the time I was returning home from my job as an editor for a Washington Post newspaper at the Navy Yard. Was on the platform when the conductor, [name redacted] threatened to arrest me for photographing one of the new MP36 engines that was on the platform next to my train, claiming that, "I would post the picture online where it could be accessed by terrorist".
> 
> I then stated Amtrak's policy pertaining to photography at DC Union and even pulled out a copy of the document to which he replied, he would have me arrested by Amtrak police for trespassing, despite having a valid monthly ticket. I informed him that he will also miss his train as I will personally ensure he is held by the police as well while we worked this out with the appropriate Amtrak and MARC management.
> 
> ...


I too am a member of the NPPA and I make it a point to leave my member large badge in the clear pocket that is on the front of my jacket .

While dont shoot as much PJ as I used to back in college.

I will allwas keep paying my dues to support a long time organization that stands up for photog rights

And what protects PJs also helps the other photogs out there too !


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## firstcultural (Feb 3, 2015)

Is this mostly a phenomenon that is more common the closer one is to DC? I haven't had any problems taking pictures out here in California.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Feb 3, 2015)

The 2 times I have gone northbound through DC on the _*Silver Meteor*_ I went up front to watch the engine change and both times the change crew was more than willing to let me stand behind them and get pics and video. In fact the second time several pax came up, many simply curious and one of the change crew suggested when good photo opps were coming up. And I had no trouble walking to the back of our train where the Beech Grove and another Inspection Car had been coupled on and taking close pics of those.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 3, 2015)

firstcultural said:


> Is this mostly a phenomenon that is more common the closer one is to DC? I haven't had any problems taking pictures out here in California.


In the case of California I know San Diego's station has experienced this kind of anti-photography security theater in the past. I've personally run into plenty of problems with exercising my right to legal photography here in Texas as well. This kind of authoritative arrogance is not limited to any one geographical area and occurs all over the country with surprising regularity. Which probably wouldn't bother me so much if we didn't also claim to be the land of the free.


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## larry Stewart (Jul 22, 2019)

I have Never been stoped ? freom taking a photo of a Train since
sept 11 2001 ! northwest Railfan


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## cirdan (Jul 23, 2019)

George Harris said:


> As a railroad oriented civil engineer I have taken pictures of track, trains, bridges, cuts, fills, stations, signals, yards, and everything else railroad related for over 40 years. There has been specific emphasis on details of track. These pictures are of facilities in somewhere above 10 states and 9 foreign countries. And then there are the books and technical standards that I have collected over the years. No, I am not a spy. I work with this stuff.
> 
> Given the current paranoia I would probably be locked up for the rest of my life. Its is a catch 22 if you try to be discreet about it. If blatant, many people see you and somebody may go into panic. If discreet, then you may have to explain to law enforcement why you are acting sneakily.
> 
> I see all this silly stuff as making it difficult for both the enthusiast and the professional, and not really doing anything to improve security.



Reminds me of an English streetcar fan I know who toured Russia back in iron curtain days to visit, ride and photograph as many streetcar systems as possible, including many of the smaller ones that most people probably don't know about. He says that once he was inside the country, he was able to travel around with relative ease and for the most part staff were cooperative and allowed him to take photographs, even inside carbarns and workshops. He always made sure he had small presents to give to people, such as postcards of streetcars from his local museum, which helped convince people he was just a fan and not dangerous. And people absolutely loved postcards and would ask for several to give to friends etc. So he got used to taking huge stacks of different ones. He also handed out keyrings, pens and things, all of the same museum. For bigger favours he might give people a T-shirt. As it was at that time virtually impossible to get authoritative and trustworthy maps, especially of the smaller systems, he made an attempt to create such maps by buying a city map and drawing in all the streetcar lines, locations of carbarns, service tracks etc. He said the photos he took were never a problem but these maps were and once upon leaving the country the customs official accused him of spying and it took a long discussion to convince him that he was just a harmless crank.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 16, 2019)

You know, back in the days of the Cold War, when we had legitimate concerns about Chinese or East Bloc spies, we made it a point of pride that we let people photograph even military stuff, unlike the silly paranoid Commies. Nowadays, I suspect that the only reason that Chinese or Russian spies take pictures of our railroads is to take them home and laugh among themselves about our primitive railway infrastructure.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 16, 2019)

Some pictures of the Beijing subway taken in 2017. Nobody from the dictatorial regime bothered me at all, even the picture of the security checkpoint.


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## MARC Rider (Aug 16, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> Some pictures of the Beijing subway taken in 2017. Nobody from the dictatorial regime bothered me at all, even the picture of the security checkpoint.
> 
> View attachment 14816
> 
> ...


Come to think of it, if they had bothered me, I was travelling on an official passport. It might have caused a diplomatic incident. I might have gotten into trouble at work. I might have retired a year earlier than I did, or maybe I might right now be cooling my heels in a Chinese prison.  (unlikely, given the experience of the basetball player, who was caught shoplifting in China, but was pretty quickly released and sent home. This is China, after all, not North Korea.)


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