# Canadian equipment after service reduction



## johnny.menhennet (Nov 1, 2012)

I have been wondering what is being done with the extra equipment from all over Canada after the recent fall reductions in service. With specific regard to the Ocean and Canadian, because I know that (hopefully) the extra cars from cancelled Corridor trains can be shuffled around to make the remaining services have greater capacity. Thank you for any and all responses.

Sidenote: Status of 1-month-departed Northlander equipment?


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## Anderson (Nov 1, 2012)

Well, my understanding is that it's only the Ocean/Chaleur that are getting year-round reductions (along with the two corridor lines that are getting cut back/partly bustituted (in the case of the Niagara line, where the twits at GO have been hawking a bus/bus+commuter train option in lieu of VIA's option for a bit that makes me want to scream "Take your promoted downgrade and shove it [bleep], Espee!"), but that the Canadian is supposed to be 3-weekly in-season (where ridership has been steady or rising) and 2-weekly out-of-season (where ridership has been sliding for a long time). So you'll still need that equipment at those times.

With that said...I could see another frequency on the corridor happening with the freed-up coaches (which, as I understand it, would probably make the most sense...the LRC trains at least _seem_ to be arbitrarily length-limited at four cars apiece, after all)


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## Nathanael (Nov 2, 2012)

Well, at the moment nothing is being done with the equipment. There have been rumors that Amtrak is considering borrowing some of the equipment and using it on the Maple Leaf, to help with Amtrak's terrible equipment shortages. Actually, that would make a lot of sense; if Amtrak borrowed VIA equipment for the Adirondack and/or Maple Leaf, Amtrak wouldn't even have to learn how to maintain VIA equipment (which is good, Amtrak doesn't want to mess with that ancient stuff).

It would make sense for VIA to deploy the equipment on the Corridor, but right now VIA is being run to fail, so that's unlikely.


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 6, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> It would make sense for VIA to deploy the equipment on the Corridor, but right now VIA is being run to fail, so that's unlikely.


Really? VIA is just running trains where it makes sense and some of that equipment from the discontinued Niagara Falls and Sarnia trains is now being redeployed to new corridor trains launching December 10:

Ottawa - Toronto: 7 trains per day (up from 6)

Montreal - Quebec City: 5 trains per day (up from 4)


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## Gratt (Nov 6, 2012)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > It would make sense for VIA to deploy the equipment on the Corridor, but right now VIA is being run to fail, so that's unlikely.
> ...


And just imagine how many corridor trains VIA rail could run if they elimitated the Montreal – Senneterre train and the Montreal – Jonquière train !!!!

Heck we can get rid of Jasper – Prince Rupert train too! With all that free equipment maybe we could have up to 10 trains a day on the corridor!!!

wouldnt that be exciting :wacko:


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## jis (Nov 6, 2012)

Discontinuance of Montreal - Senneterre and Montreal - Jonquiere apparently is entangled in Canad/Quebec politics to such an extent that many more things will get canceled before those, or so I am told.


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 6, 2012)

Gratt said:


> And just imagine how many corridor trains VIA rail could run if they elimitated the Montreal – Senneterre train and the Montreal – Jonquière train !!!!


Probably a better chance of seeing the Canadian or Ocean privatized or eliminated than the discontinuance of the Senneterre/Jonquiere or Churchill trains......they're considered essential services.

But what does make sense is the increase in corridor services where people do ride trains and with the soon to be completed triple tracking projects.......an increase in Montreal - Toronto services also.


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## jis (Nov 6, 2012)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Gratt said:
> 
> 
> > And just imagine how many corridor trains VIA rail could run if they elimitated the Montreal – Senneterre train and the Montreal – Jonquière train !!!!
> ...


Isn't the Canadian considered essential service too?


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 6, 2012)

jis said:


> Isn't the Canadian considered essential service too?


Portions of the route through Northern Ontario**. That's why there was always at least a local train between Capreol - Sioux Lookout - Winnipeg after the Super Continental was discontinued and before the Canadian was rerouted to CN. Also the White River RDC still runs on isolated sections of CP.

**Look at the VIA timetable for the Canadian.....of the 2 page schedule, nearly a full page is flag stops in Northern Ontario.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 7, 2012)

I would really like to see Amtrak borrow some equipment though, especially with the improved customs facilities coming at MTR.


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## Nathanael (Nov 8, 2012)

I think the political situation is odd, to say the least. VIA is marginal enough politically, being irrelevant in the Praries and the West, and nearly irrelevant in the Maritimes. Topping this off by alienating the population of southwest Ontario, which is actually significant, is not a move *I* would have wanted to make. +1 Ottawa-Toronto and +1 Montreal-Quebec City is no compensation for -2 Toronto-Niagara Falls as well as the other cuts (which are a little harder to count).

One of the features of service increases is that their value is on a percentage basis. There's huge value in going from one a day to two a day (and huge loss in going from two a day to one a day). The value of going from six a day to seven a day is ... not as large.


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 8, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> ....................Topping this off by alienating the population of southwest Ontario, which is actually significant, is not a move *I* would have wanted to make. +1 Ottawa-Toronto and +1 Montreal-Quebec City is no compensation for -2 Toronto-Niagara Falls...........


Actually Toronto – Niagara Falls is the loss of only 1 train (1 round trip) not 2……the same as Ottawa – Toronto and Montreal – Quebec City each gain 1 round trip plus there’s also the reintroduction of #68 and #69 between Montreal and Toronto on Friday and Sunday evenings.

Niagara Falls – Toronto: once GO started the all day (every 1 to 2 hours) bus from NF to Burlington connecting to the train to Toronto plus the summer weekend train service, many deserted VIA for the more frequent and cheaper GO service. Sure there are those that continued to ride VIA for the convenience of the one seat ride and perhaps VIA jumped the gun before GO establishes an all day train service at least as far as St. Catharines.....but NF to Toronto is definitely commuter territory at 89 miles and VIAs equipment is better utilized elsewhere.

Same goes for the back-road (Toronto – London via Guelph) There’s been a decline in those riding VIA after GO introduced service to Kitchener. 



And once GO adds additional trains into SW Ontario (I’m thinking Toronto – Brantford) there probably will be further VIA cuts. So redeploy the trains and increase frequency where people are actually riding: Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City.


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## Anderson (Nov 8, 2012)

You know, I'd like to see GO seriously look at extending _their_ trains to NF on a regular basis. Granted, it's not VIA, but it's still rail service and not bus service.

I guess one thing I'm trying to sort out is the rail/bus mix on several of these routes, since a lot of this is actually rail/rail substitution on many portions of the routes. IIRC, the cut service on the Sarina route was basically an extra "commuter" frequency that was just being run through (they had two inbound in the morning and one of those was cut).


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 8, 2012)

Anderson said:


> You know, I'd like to see GO seriously look at extending _their_ trains to NF on a regular basis. Granted, it's not VIA, but it's still rail service and not bus service.


The problem with all-day GO Trains to Niagara Falls is the lift-span at the Welland Canal. It must be opened on a regular basis for seaway traffic and delays to trains are common in the 30 > 40 minute range. This would throw havoc into the morning or evening commute.

 

St. Catharines, on the west side of the canal (and about 10 miles from NF) is a more likely destination for GO Trains with shuttle buses beyond to Niagara looping through the city stopping at Hotels, Casinos and attractions. Presently GO serves Niagara Falls with buses on a nearly hourly schedule connecting to trains at Burlington.


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## Anderson (Nov 8, 2012)

Actually, that's a reasonable alternative proposal considering the constraints you mentioned. It looks like only about a 10 mile bus ride to Niagara Falls, so that's workable; I could also see regular service to St. Catharines on the one hand plus some incidental service going through on the other as well (i.e. 2-3 trains/day) if they can coordinate the bridge openings and there's enough demand to stress the buses at peak hours.

I agree with this being "jumping the gun"...it feels sadly like a number of the service cut attempts back in the 50s and 60s, where "There will be a rapid transit line soon, so can we just cut service now?" proposals were put forth.

As to it being commuter territory...89 miles is "commuter" on paper, but things in about the 80-120 mile range seem to be caught in the middle: 120-150 minutes (if not a bit more) on a commuter train can be a real pain as you almost always lack OBS and have a heavy stopping schedule, while towards the lower end it's not considered "intercity". This is part of why I like the HSR line that heads out on Long Island...I think you'd get a reasonable flow of business looking for a "super express" into NYC.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 9, 2012)

I don't like this bus/train combo, especially over such short distances. I think they should either run a bus all the way, or a train all the way.


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## Guest (Nov 9, 2012)

GO's coordinated train/bus schedules work very well, and are key to the popularity of the service. Similarly Amtrak California and integrated schedules throughout Europe. We need more, not less of this inter-modal coordination in North America.

Via's principal madate is to provide inter city transporation. It is inot supposed to be in the commuter business, though in several markets commuters do ride the trains. Via has been discontinuing commuter-oriented trains where other options exist (e.g. Toronto-Niagara and Toronto-Kitchener). Finally, Via has introduced through ticketing wiith both GO and with AMT in Montreal.

As far as Niagara Falls is concerned the main commuter belt is around the west end of Lake Ontario before St. Catharines. The Toronto to Niagara Falls market itself is intercity, both business and leisure traffic, but the QEW highway is very busy 24 hours a day. That said there is good inter city coach service with Greyhound and Megabus operating upwards of 20 departures daily, over and above the dozen GO busses on weekdays,


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 10, 2012)

Guest said:


> GO's coordinated train/bus schedules work very well, and are key to the popularity of the service. Similarly Amtrak California and integrated schedules throughout Europe. We need more, not less of this inter-modal coordination in North America.
> 
> Via's principal madate is to provide inter city transporation. It is inot supposed to be in the commuter business, though in several markets commuters do ride the trains. Via has been discontinuing commuter-oriented trains where other options exist (e.g. Toronto-Niagara and Toronto-Kitchener). Finally, Via has introduced through ticketing wiith both GO and with AMT in Montreal.
> 
> As far as Niagara Falls is concerned the main commuter belt is around the west end of Lake Ontario before St. Catharines. The Toronto to Niagara Falls market itself is intercity, both business and leisure traffic, but the QEW highway is very busy 24 hours a day. That said there is good inter city coach service with Greyhound and Megabus operating upwards of 20 departures daily, over and above the dozen GO busses on weekdays,


I know I am probably going to confuse everybody here, but I actually like using buses to support trains. But I limit that to places that don't have train service. You got train service, you got bus service, you don't need a bus/train combo serivice. You got/could have bus service, you don't have train service, then bus/train combos are the way to go. I don't like how VIA just cancelled their train and replaced it with a GO bus/train combo. BTW, does GO have buses through to Toronto?


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## Anderson (Nov 10, 2012)

I believe that they do have through buses. IIRC, the promotional stuff I saw mentioned three options:

-VIA all the way

-Bus-to-train

-Bus all the way


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## NS VIA Fan (Nov 10, 2012)

GO buses connect to trains in Burlington (there are thru buses on Greyhound and Coach Canada)

http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/en/PDF/Timetables/CurrentBoard/Table12.pdf

And GO has a lot of Bus to Train Combos:

Other than the all-day train service on the main Lakeshore route between Aldershot-Toronto Union-Oshawa.......the remainder of the routes are covered by morning trains into the Toronto and return trains in the late afternoon/evening rush hour which vary from five to eight trains each way. The rest of the day is covered by buses on highways running parallel to the train routes. 

 The bus/train combos must be popular as GO carried nearly 60 million riders last year.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 12, 2012)

NS VIA Fan said:


> GO buses connect to trains in Burlington (there are thru buses on Greyhound and Coach Canada)
> 
> http://www.gotransit...ard/Table12.pdf
> 
> ...


GO must have carried most of those people on trains as their trains are quite long and can carry much, MUCH more people than buses. Also, GO seems to have buses running to Union Station, so I suspect there are Go through buses too, but trains still carry most of the people hence thier long length.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

In round numbers GO carries 50 million persons per year on its trains and 10 million on busses, which either connect with the trains or provide a parallel provide off-peak service. The largest single ridership comes from the Lakeshore West train route.

Yes, GO trains are long. The typical consist is 10 double decker cars. By way of comparison Metrolink in LA and Tri Rail in Miami run 3 or 4 car trains of similar equipmwent.

Go has dozens of bus departures from the Union Station bus terminal, which is adjacent to Union Station proper on the east side of Bay St. south of Front Street. However, none of therse GO departures go through to Niagara Falls. The main bus route running west from downtown TO is the half-hourly express service to Hamilton, which parallels the Lakeshore West train route.

As menioned in an earlier post there are are plenty of single ride buses between NF and TO on Greyhound and Megabus.


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## johnny.menhennet (Nov 12, 2012)

Guest said:


> In round numbers GO carries 50 million persons per year on its trains and 10 million on busses, which either connect with the trains or provide a parallel provide off-peak service. The largest single ridership comes from the Lakeshore West train route.
> 
> Yes, GO trains are long. The typical consist is 10 double decker cars. By way of comparison Metrolink in LA and Tri Rail in Miami run 3 or 4 car trains of similar equipmwent.
> 
> ...


While not a big point, Metrolink has been doing much better. I have not seen a 3-car train in years. With the new Rotem cars added to the Bombardier coaches, train lengths have definitely increased. Every Orange County Line train I've seen in the past few years have been 6 cars. IEOC trains I've seen have been 5-6, and 4-6 for the SB Line trains. VC have been 4-5. They have been doing exceedingly well with both weekday and weekend ridership gains, especially weekend growth, and they are continuing to expand service (to Perris soon) and frequencies as well, all over the system. I think Metrolink is quickly becoming a much better example of an efficient commuter system. An example of INefficiency is TRE, where when DMU's are not being run, they will have a full diesel engine, and either 2 or 3 Bombardier coaches/cabs.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Nov 13, 2012)

I personally prefer shorter trains with more frequency for commuter and SD routes. However, longer trains are better for LD.


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## johnny.menhennet (Nov 14, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> I personally prefer shorter trains with more frequency for commuter and SD routes. However, longer trains are better for LD.


We'll track apacity can't always accommodate that, ESPECIALLY in metropolitan areas like LA that have multiple heavily-used freight corridors as well. So you work wih what you can, and many agencies work with what they are allowed and seeing as there is growing demand, they lengthe consists both to maximize ridership and revenue. In NY many trans are 10+ cars long due to tunnel limits, etc. While we all would like as mny frequencies as possible, you have to maximize revenue with what you have because if commuter agencies can come anywhere closer to decreasing their losses, then that puts them in a better position in the future.


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