# Do trains have a speed limit?



## -Jamie- (Jun 5, 2009)

Just curious if trains had a speed limit. I thought they did, but I just looked at my GPS and it said we were going 87 mph. I have to admit, it's making me a little nervous. It's a really rough ride. I'm not sure why we're running so fast, we're ahead of schedule. I'd really like to tell the engineer to slow the hell down.


----------



## PetalumaLoco (Jun 5, 2009)

-Jamie- said:


> Just curious if trains had a speed limit. I thought they did, but I just looked at my GPS and it said we were going 87 mph. I have to admit, it's making me a little nervous. It's a really rough ride. I'm not sure why we're running so fast, we're ahead of schedule. I'd really like to tell the engineer to slow the hell down.


Which train are you on?


----------



## -Jamie- (Jun 6, 2009)

SL #1


----------



## amtrakwolverine (Jun 6, 2009)

trains have speed limits just like cars. however if the train is running late the train will sometimes go over the speed limit. the average top speed for most LD trains is 79MPH. some LDs trains can go 80-90 MPH. the wolverine can go 105 in one spot on the line. the acela can go a max speed of 150MPH in a few spots on the NEC.


----------



## -Jamie- (Jun 6, 2009)

105? That's insane! What equipment does that line use?


----------



## Joel N. Weber II (Jun 6, 2009)

There are a number of issues that affect maximum speed, including:

curve radius and superelevation

FRA track class that the track is maintained to

signal system features: if there's no signal system at all, passenger trains are limited to 59 MPH, and operation faster than 79 MPH requires cab signals and/or automatic train stop; this is the reason most Amtrak routes are limited to 79 MPH

grade crossings can limit speed, but I think that's typically not much of an issue in places with no cab signals or automatic train stop

capabilities of the locomotives and passenger cars (but I think just about everything Amtrak has these days can handle at least 110 MPH, possibly with the exception of a handful of switching locomotives)


----------



## amtrakwolverine (Jun 6, 2009)

-Jamie- said:


> 105? That's insane! What equipment does that line use?


normally 2 P42's(one at each end) and either 5 horizon cars or 5 amfleat-1 cars. amtrak owns that streach it goes that speed on and i believe is a straight line.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Jun 6, 2009)

-Jamie- said:


> 105? That's insane! What equipment does that line use?


Not really. The Empire corridor runs with General Electric P32ACDM Genesis dual mode diesel/electric locomotives and will hit speeds of up to 110 between Spuyten Duyvil and Schenectady. The standard Northeast Regionals do up to 125 along the corridor between Boston and Washington. The Keystones will hit speeds of up to 110 between Philly and Harrisburg, and will hit 125 as they blast along the Corridor through New Jersey.

The Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Crescent, Palmetto, and Regional 66/67 and Carolinian will hit 110 between New York and DC.

The Superliners and Surfliners are built for 100 mph operation. The Heritage cars and Viewliners are built for 110. The Amfleets and (currently defunct) Turboliners are built for 125. The Horizons are theoretically rated for 125, but in practice are never run faster than 110- they have demonstrated considerable instability faster than that (There is a reason they were quickly removed from Corridor service on the New York-Washington trains and are relegated to Chicago trains whose cold temperature they are also not suited to). The Acela Express trainsets are rated for 165 mph, but are never operated above 150 in revenue service.

Ever heard the song City of New Orleans? Well the train they are referring to, a crack day train, hit 100 mph on ICs light-weight rail using old and decrepit equipment. The train they currently run used to be called the Panama Limited by Amtrak- although it bears no resemblance to THAT train either.

HOWEVER, as far as I know, and I'm sure George Harris will either back me up or correct me, the Sunset Limited is never operated on track faster than 79 mph rating. If you are doing what you say you are doing, your engineer is being enthusiastic.


----------



## manchacrr (Jun 6, 2009)

Don't forget about the Talgos used in Cascades service in the Pacific Northwest. I believe that they are also built for at least 110 mph.


----------



## jackal (Jun 6, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> There are a number of issues that affect maximum speed, including:
> curve radius and superelevation
> 
> FRA track class that the track is maintained to
> ...


Rest assured that any speed the train is traveling is the result of careful analysis of the above-mentioned factors. With the exception of gross negligence on the part of the engineer (something that would NOT be tolerated), a train never goes faster than the current speed limit on a given segment of track or faster than its equipment allows. You may encounter some rough track, but it's never (except in extremely rare cases--only a few times per decade) anything dangerous enough to cause the wheels to jump the track.

You're perfectly safe!


----------



## Upstate (Jun 6, 2009)

So if a train is speeding how do they(fra, amtrak, whoever) know. I can't imagine that there is a police train that sits hiding out on an industrial siding with a radar gun ready to flip on the blue lights.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 6, 2009)

On our recent trip back from Montana on the EB, our GPS indicated top speed of 85. Most of the time when we were running what I would call "flat out" it was 80-81.


----------



## sky12065 (Jun 6, 2009)

Upstate said:


> So if a train is speeding how do they(fra, amtrak, whoever) know. I can't imagine that there is not a police train that sits hiding out on an industrial siding with a radar gun ready to flip on the blue lights.


This begs the question... if a train gets pulled over on a side track and is given a ticket for speeding, does the train need to personally appear in Choo-choo Court or can the Engineer or the Conductor appear to represent it? Unstable minds want to know! :lol:


----------



## PetalumaLoco (Jun 6, 2009)

sky12065 said:


> Upstate said:
> 
> 
> > So if a train is speeding how do they(fra, amtrak, whoever) know. I can't imagine that there is not a police train that sits hiding out on an industrial siding with a radar gun ready to flip on the blue lights.
> ...


In cases like that, the offending engineer is railroaded thru the court and highballed to the hoosegow.


----------



## AlanB (Jun 6, 2009)

Upstate said:


> So if a train is speeding how do they(fra, amtrak, whoever) know. I can't imagine that there is a police train that sits hiding out on an industrial siding with a radar gun ready to flip on the blue lights.


In Amtrak's case, the onboard computers log all the trains info, including speed. So if someone suspected a speeding train, and didn't happen to have a radar gun handy, they could just download the computer.

Going beyond that however, except for locos that operate on the SWC, Michigan services, and the NEC, all P42's are programmed to shut the train down if the engineer remains above 79MPH for any major length of time. And I believe that allowing the train to get above 82MPH will cause an immediate brake application.

So in Jamie's case, his GPS must have been misreading the Sat info, as 87MPH would have triggered a brake application on that train.


----------



## Rafi (Jun 6, 2009)

Couple of quick corrections...



Green Maned Lion said:


> The Superliners and Surfliners are built for 100 mph operation.


Surfliners and the California Cars are both rated for 125 MPH. Also of note is the PPCs are rated for 110 MPH.



> Don't forget about the Talgos used in Cascades service in the Pacific Northwest. I believe that they are also built for at least 110 mph.


The Talgos are rated for 125 MPH.

Rafi


----------



## Upstate (Jun 6, 2009)

AlanB said:


> So in Jamie's case, his GPS must have been misreading the Sat info, as 87MPH would have triggered a brake application on that train.


Probably so. I just took the Cat Ferry from Bar Harbor, ME to Yarmouth, NS and for a while there my GPS said we were more than 200 feet underwater  .


----------



## creddick (Jun 6, 2009)

On the Blue Water last September, according to my GPS, we hit 106 west of Kalamazoo. It was wonderful. I really had no sensation of speed. I knew we were going pretty fast but figured it was about 80-90. Loved seeing over 100.


----------



## the_traveler (Jun 6, 2009)

The GPS is sometimes wrong. Once, from WAS-KIN it said we were *moving* at 40 MPH to the SW. The problem was we had not yet left the gate. Another time it said we were moving at *562 MPH*! I know they want HSR on the NEC - *BUT* ... !


----------



## amtrakwolverine (Jun 6, 2009)

i know one time on the SWC i overheard on the conductors radio that one of the conductors asked the engineer if he could go faster. the engineer replied im already going 66.


----------



## the_traveler (Jun 6, 2009)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> i know one time on the SWC i overheard on the conductors radio that one of the conductors asked the engineer if he could go faster. the engineer replied im already going 66.


It depends on the location of where he was. Portions of that route are authorized for speeds of 90 MPH!


----------



## AlanB (Jun 6, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> > i know one time on the SWC i overheard on the conductors radio that one of the conductors asked the engineer if he could go faster. the engineer replied im already going 66.
> ...


At 66MPH the engineer on any route would potentially have 13MPH to play with before going over the normal max of 79MPH.


----------



## amtrakwolverine (Jun 6, 2009)

yeah but some sections that either have alot of curves or rough track the limit could be 50 or so. so the question is what was the speed limit when he was going 66.


----------



## Guest (Jun 7, 2009)

Sorry to all the folks who think the Michigan trains have a stretch that can go 105, that is COMPLETELY wrong. It is not yet authorized to go at that speed (they are hoping to increase the speed later this year to 105). Usually they have a top speed of 95, but due to ICTS system issues they are currently going slower.

I can say this with all certainty because I personally know one of the engineers on this route.


----------



## jackal (Jun 7, 2009)

Upstate said:


> So if a train is speeding how do they(fra, amtrak, whoever) know. I can't imagine that there is a police train that sits hiding out on an industrial siding with a radar gun ready to flip on the blue lights.


Road Foremen of Engines (the supervisors for engineers) have radar guns and do sit trackside and monitor train speeds. Being caught exceeding any speed restriction results in a rule violation and potential disciplinary action, including and up to termination and possible fines by the FRA.



Upstate said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > So in Jamie's case, his GPS must have been misreading the Sat info, as 87MPH would have triggered a brake application on that train.
> ...


GPS two-dimensional location data can be accurate down to mere inches, but strangely, vertical accuracy is MUCH worse and can be (as you found out) off by several hundred feet. I'm not sure why, but some Internet research would probably yield some clues. GPS speed readings can be off depending on how often the GPS unit samples its current position and what algorithm it uses to calculate the speed and smooth/average out the results.



KISS_ALIVE said:


> yeah but some sections that either have alot of curves or rough track the limit could be 50 or so. so the question is what was the speed limit when he was going 66.


My guess is 65. I was once told by an Amtrak engineer that Amtrak gives about 1-2 miles per hour of leniency, and indeed, unofficially pushes its engineers to run a couple of miles per hour over in order to facilitate on-time performance. If something were to happen, though, and the locomotive data recorder indicated the engineer were speeding (even 1-2 mph over), the engineer could (and probably would) be written up for a rules violation, so it puts the engineer in a difficult spot. Engineers would never run more than about 2 over, though, so I doubt it was less than 65.

FWIW, the Alaska Railroad has zero tolerance for speeding...so it varies by company.


----------



## Joel N. Weber II (Jun 7, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Going beyond that however, except for locos that operate on the SWC, Michigan services, and the NEC, all P42's are programmed to shut the train down if the engineer remains above 79MPH for any major length of time.


When I was commenting that nearly all of Amtrak's equipment is capable of operating at 110 MPH, I neglected to note that many P42 locomotives do not have any sort of cab signal or automatic train stop equipment that would allow them to legally excceed 79 MPH in the US.

However, the traction motors on all of the P42s are geared for 110 MPH, and I think if for some bizarre reason Amtrak were to decide to sell them to VIA Rail, the only thing VIA Rail would have to do to be able to operate those locomotives at 110 MPH in Canada would be to update the settings on the P42s' computers to allow the faster speed.

And the reason many of the P42s are limited to 79 MPH is that so many Amtrak routes cover 0 miles with cab signaling or automatic train stop, and so investing in that extra equipment for the locomotives in the short term would be pointless. When the signal systems installed along the track are upgraded, upgrading the equipment in the locomotives should be relatively easy.


----------



## Dutchrailnut (Jun 7, 2009)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> And the reason many of the P42s are limited to 79 MPH is that so many Amtrak routes cover 0 miles with cab signaling or automatic train stop, and so investing in that extra equipment for the locomotives in the short term would be pointless. When the signal systems installed along the track are upgraded, upgrading the equipment in the locomotives should be relatively easy.



Every P40 and P42 came equiped with cab signal equipment, the unit is a multi setting unit that can be set for any cab signal system in US.

the train stop skate can be plugged in on any p40-p42

The lack of wayside cabsignal equipment is what restricts passenger trains to 79 mph not the gear on Amtrak locomotives.


----------



## VentureForth (Jun 7, 2009)

SWC can go 90. Wasn't aware of cab signalling on SWC equipment.

Doesn't the Keystone and Pennsylvanian also go 105 or 110?


----------



## AlanB (Jun 7, 2009)

VentureForth said:


> Doesn't the Keystone and Pennsylvanian also go 105 or 110?


Yes, but the Keystones don't use P42's.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Jun 7, 2009)

Rafi said:


> Surfliners and the California Cars are both rated for 125 MPH. Also of note is the PPCs are rated for 110 MPH.


You got me on the Surfliner/California Cars, but I did say that Heritage cars are rated for 110, and the PPCs are Heritage fleet cars.


----------



## TVRM610 (Jun 7, 2009)

AlanB said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't the Keystone and Pennsylvanian also go 105 or 110?
> ...


But the Pennsylvanian does between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. Not sure its top speed on the Harrisburg to PHL portions but I'm sure its over 79.

Also... Anyone know what speeds do the NJ Transit trains run on the NE Corridor?


----------



## AlanB (Jun 7, 2009)

TVRM610 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > VentureForth said:
> ...


Top speed for a P42 would be 110 MPH. Not sure if the Pennsy actually does that or not though.

And AFAIK, top speed for NJT right now is 100 MPH.


----------



## Green Maned Lion (Jun 7, 2009)

AlanB said:


> And AFAIK, top speed for NJT right now is 100 MPH.


People keep telling me its 80, but I'd bet you're right, but only on the Corridor.


----------



## AlanB (Jun 7, 2009)

Green Maned Lion said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And AFAIK, top speed for NJT right now is 100 MPH.
> ...


Yes, it would only be possible on the corridor. And I'm not sure if any of the regular trains hit that speed, that's what the equipment is certified for by the FRA. I believe that the ACES trains do get up to that speed, it certainly felt like it.


----------



## TVRM610 (Jun 7, 2009)

AlanB said:


> TVRM610 said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


The Pennsylvanian did that this week when I rode it... I was pretty sure it was common practice since the layover in PHL is 40 minutes and the layover in Harrisburg is only 15, not really enough time to change locos.


----------



## George Harris (Jun 8, 2009)

-Jamie- said:


> Just curious if trains had a speed limit. I thought they did, but I just looked at my GPS and it said we were going 87 mph. I have to admit, it's making me a little nervous. It's a really rough ride. I'm not sure why we're running so fast, we're ahead of schedule. I'd really like to tell the engineer to slow the hell down.


so far as I know, no where on the Sunset Ltd route is the speed limit above 79 mph. As others have said, chances are you would have been moving not faster than 79 mph or *at most* no more than 81 to 82 mph. Even a very uncomfortably rough ride can still be well inside the limits of safety. As others have pointed out, there are quite a few places even in this country where trains run faster, in some cases quite a bit faster. There is nothing inherent in rail that prevents going much faster. On high speed lines in other countries, speed limits of 186 mph exist, and the ride can be quite comfortable at that speed.


----------



## jis (Jun 8, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Yes, it would only be possible on the corridor. And I'm not sure if any of the regular trains hit that speed, that's what the equipment is certified for by the FRA. I believe that the ACES trains do get up to that speed, it certainly felt like it.


The outer zone expresses consisting of MLVs and ALP-46s actually get up to 100mph quite regularly these days.

Upon the arrival of the ALP46As NJT plans to get the MLVs certified for 125mph, which they actually are quite capable of, so that the outer zone expresses which run on the middle tracks will become less of a hiunderance for Amtrak high speed service, and effectively increase the capacity of the corridor, since reduction of the speed differential among trains using the middle tracks will effectively allow each train to use a single slot, instead of the 1.5 slots used by the NJT expresses at present.


----------



## Long Train Runnin' (Jun 8, 2009)

Here is a shot I took of that brand new express track. Eat your heart out rest of the country its a true high speed piece of rail!







I agree with what Alan said on ACES we were moving no doubt about that!


----------



## DET63 (Aug 27, 2012)

-Jamie- said:


> Just curious if trains had a speed limit. I thought they did, but I just looked at my GPS and it said we were going 87 mph. I have to admit, it's making me a little nervous. It's a really rough ride. I'm not sure why we're running so fast, we're ahead of schedule. I'd really like to tell the engineer to slow the hell down.


Some defect detectors will also radio to the engineer, as well as to the dispatcher or anyone else listening to the communication the train's speed. Any train operating above the speed limit will automatically be "outed." Any engineer will probably be reprimanded if not worse.

Better late (as in behind schedule) than late (as in dead).


----------



## Nathanael (Aug 27, 2012)

-Jamie- said:


> Just curious if trains had a speed limit. I thought they did, but I just looked at my GPS and it said we were going 87 mph. I have to admit, it's making me a little nervous. It's a really rough ride. I'm not sure why we're running so fast, we're ahead of schedule. I'd really like to tell the engineer to slow the hell down.


Trains have several speed limits.

(1) The locomotive has a top rated speed. (Usually well over 100 mph on passenger trains).

(2) The cars have top rated speeds. (Usually 100 mph or more)

(3) The track has a top rated speed according to how well it's maintained. ("FRA Track Classes".)

(4) There are speed limits imposed by curves.

(5) There are speed limits imposed by certain types of bridges.

(6) There are speed limits imposed by the type of signalling system due to orders from the Interstate Commerce Commission a long time ago. On tracks without "positive train control" or "automatic train stop" or similar systems, the speed limit is usually 79. On tracks without real signalling (where the "signalling system" is paper orders and radio authorization), the speed limit is usually 59.

I suspect, however, that the original poster (from 2009) had a GPS that was not calibrated perfectly. The Sunset Limited route had the 79 mph speed limit the whole way in 2009.


----------



## zephyr17 (Aug 27, 2012)

VentureForth said:


> SWC can go 90. Wasn't aware of cab signalling on SWC equipment.
> 
> Doesn't the Keystone and Pennsylvanian also go 105 or 110?


The former AT&SF does not have cab signalling, but large stretches in New Mexico, Arizona and the California desert still have ATS(Automatic Train Stop) from the Santa Fe days. ATS equipped lines can go 90, too. All the equipment used on the Southwest Chief have ATS shoes. Not sure if all P42s have it. BTW, the Surf Line between LA and San Diego has ATS on some stretches, too (southern Orange County, through Camp Pendleton) and the Pacific Surfliners make 90 there, too.


----------



## PerRock (Aug 27, 2012)

Just a couple notes (not going to go back and dig out the posts). The Wolverine can be run at 110, however it doesn't in do it regularly. Shortly after the high speed section was open I took it & the made an announcement stating the speed we were going, which was between 100-110 (can't remember what exactly they said). I believe normally it's in the 90mph range.

These are the max speeds for Amtrak's equipment taken from the Fleet Strategy Plan:

HHP-8 135mph

AEM-7 125mph

ACELA 150mph

P42 110mph

F59PHI 110mph

P32-8 100mph

P32-ACDM 110mph

P40 100mph

Talgo 125mph

Am1 "Capstone" 125mph

Am2 ADA 125mph

Superliner1 100mph

Superliner (CalTrans) 100mph

Superliner2 100mph

Viewliner1 110mph

Push-Pull Cab Coach 125mph

Cabbage 100mph

Surfliner 125mph

Horizon ADA 125mph

PPC 110mph

Heritage Baggage 110mph

GP38H-3 100mph

MP15 65mph

SW1500 60mph

SW1001 60mph

GP-15D 65mph

MP14 & MP21 65mph

GP38 65mph

SW1 50mph

SW1000 50mph

peter


----------



## AlanB (Aug 27, 2012)

A correction and a modification: The HHP is 125 MPH. It might physically be able to go 135MPH, not real sure, but it can never do so because of FRA regulations concerning speeds over 125MPH and it is rated at 125 MPH. So its effective speed is 125 MPH.

And the modification is that the P40's were updated during the overhaul to do 110 MPH now.


----------



## Nathanael (Aug 27, 2012)

PerRock said:


> Viewliner1 110mph


I have read elsewhere that the Viewliner Is are designed for 125 mph but are not *maintained* to 125 mph because they are always run with Heritage cars. I do not have an authoritative source for this. However, if true it would mean that they can be "uprated", and probably will be once the Heritage cars are retired.


----------

