# Viewliner II Part 4: Sleeping Car production, delivery, speculation



## Thirdrail7

Here is the thread dealing with the initial start up, testing and ultimately, the delivery of the baggage cars:



There is still an outstanding dining car (for the next few weeks or so) so this we can keep an eye on this thread for information and usage:



Only 1 bag/dorm has emerged from the factory, meaning there are 9 more outstanding so, this thread will hopefully have some action in the future:





As such, it is time to talk about the last car in this order. The sleeping car.  First things first, though:







h34r:

Where would add additional sleepers as they trickle out in tiny batches? Would you use them to supplement the existing trains or remove the Viewliner Is for overhaul as they emerge? Perhaps you would wait until you had 5 on hand before you'd remove View Is for overhauls/mods?

Let's speculate!


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## Just-Thinking-51

Depending on when they start to show up, and the amount on hand.

Never seen a operating plan for the new equipment (Sleeper or Bag Dorms).

The available date of the equipment would dictate the use.


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## lordsigma

Maybe a combination of both? In the peak months it would seem beneficial to add capacity, but then in the slower months take as many V1s out as possible for overhaul. Guess a lot depends on if the V1 overhaul is funded.


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## GBNorman

Are the previously "rumored" plans to standardize the single level Sleeping Car fleet to the 10RM-2BR-1H of the V-II still in "play"?


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## west point

lordsigma said:


> Maybe a combination of both? In the peak months it would seem beneficial to add capacity, but then in the slower months take as many V1s out as possible for overhaul. Guess a lot depends on if the V1 overhaul is funded.


2 [email protected] possibilities at opposite results.

1.  Take V-1 out of service as soon as V-2 available to reduce sudden revenue increase.

2.  Keep all V-1s in service until slow season then a sudden operating expense for overhaul that would make LD look worse?


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## cpotisch

west point said:


> 2 [email protected] possibilities at opposite results.
> 
> ﻿﻿﻿ 1.  Take V-1 out of service as soon as V-2 available to reduce sudden revenue﻿ increase.
> 
> 2.  Keep all V-1s in service until slow season then a sudden operating expense for overhaul that would make LD look worse?


And your point is...?


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## Just-Thinking-51

west point said:


> 2 [email protected] possibilities at opposite results.
> 
> 1.  Take V-1 out of service as soon as V-2 available to reduce sudden revenue increase.
> 
> 2.  Keep all V-1s in service until slow season then a sudden operating expense for overhaul that would make LD look worse?


Your negativity is worse than my negativity.

Wish I could prove you wrong, but you did bring up the issue that everyone is concerned about.

More sleepers equal more passengers. Passenger that need to have a food option.  Which creates more expensive.  Sleep car attendant and possibly more Food Service personal. At the very least you need to stock more food products.

Don't forget the price bucket need to be adjusted to the extra capacity too.

Not sure what Amtrak going to do.


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## Dakota 400

Thirdrail7 said:


> Where would add additional sleepers as they trickle out in tiny batches? Would you use them to supplement the existing trains or remove the Viewliner Is for overhaul as they emerge? Perhaps you would wait until you had 5 on hand before you'd remove View Is for overhauls/mods?


My suggestion would be to remove the Viewliner I's that are in service that are in need of a refreshing.  My sleeper on #97 had no interior signs of wear and tear.  The sleeper I had on #98:  its interior needed some cosmetic attention, if nothing else.  Both cars rode well and were comfortable.  Everything worked well that should have done so.


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## bratkinson

I think it depends on who is in the Amtrak presidents' chair. 

If it's Anderson, I wouldn't be surprised one iota if he simply stored all of them in Florida or wherever and pushed to make a deal with VIA to sell them V2 baggage, diner, and sleeper cars.  Do not lose sight of the fact he does NOT want to 'grow' the service or even revenue!  He only wants to cut costs!


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## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Your negativity is worse than my negativity.
> 
> Wish I could prove you wrong, but you did bring up the issue that everyone is concerned about.
> 
> ﻿ More sleepers equal more passengers. Passenger that need to have a food option.  Which creates more expensive.  Sleep car attendant and possibly more Food Service personal. At the very least you need to stock more food products.
> 
> Don't forget the price bucket need to be adjusted to the extra capacity too.
> 
> Not sure what Amtrak going to do.


Wait what? Yes there will be more passengers who need food, but they are paying (usually a hefty sum) for their ticket. I don't see any logical way in which MORE people paying for sleeper tickets is a net loss.


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## Just-Thinking-51

cpotisch said:


> Wait what? Yes there will be more passengers who need food, but they are paying (usually a hefty sum) for their ticket. I don't see any logical way in which MORE people paying for sleeper tickets is a net loss.


If Amtrak thinks there losing money with each passenger, then adding more capacity will create more lost. (Per Amtrak). Simple adding a sleeping car required more employees to staff the train.  More cost, more lost.  When your goal is to cut expenses, add a employees to pay roll is not what you do.


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## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> If Amtrak thinks there losing money with each passenger, then adding more capacity will create more lost. (Per Amtrak). Simple adding a sleeping car required more employees to staff the train.  More cost, more lost.  When your goal is to cut expenses, add a employees to pay roll is not what you do.


Has Amtrak said that they lose money on every sleeper passenger that rides?


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## Amtrakfflyer

Amtrak’s current management doesn't speak and if they do it should be taken with a huge grain of salt.


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## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Where would add additional sleepers as they trickle out in tiny batches? Would you use them to supplement the existing trains or remove the Viewliner Is for overhaul as they emerge? Perhaps you would wait until you had 5 on hand before you'd remove View Is for overhauls/mods?
> 
> Let's speculate!


Depends on whether there's funding for the supposed full renovation of the Viewliner Is (to remove the in-room bathrooms and have a separate bathroom).  If there is funding for thta, I'd get the Viewliner Is out for that renovation ASAP.  But I'm going to assume that there is no funding for this.

Also depends on time of year.  We are at the trough of Eastern sleeper car demand in late January / early February.  As spring arrives, I would lengthen the consists of trains in the following order:

#1: Cardinal.  (Which should be daily, of course, but Amtrak is not currently competent enough to do this.)

#2: Lake Shore Limited, New York Section

#3: Sleeper on #66/#67, which should get a name back (the Night Owl or Twilight Shoreliner)... and should also go to Norfolk rather than NPN, IMHO.  Also the southbound should run two hours earlier and the northbound should run two hours later.  No dining car needed for this route.  Yeah, Amtrak is nowhere near competent or clever enough to do this.

This would use a bit less than half the new cars.

Upon receiving enough sleeper cars, I would assign separate pools of View-Is and View-IIs to allow use of the full capacity of View-Is without messing up Amtrak's antiquated capacity management system (which should be fixed, but good luck).  View-IIs are supposed to be better in the snow so I'd assign them permanently to the LSL (both sections) and Cardinal.  Also, last time I read a survey result (admittedly years ago), the Northern riders were more distressed by the in-room bathrooms than the Southern riders (I have no idea why; cultural differences I guess).

#4: Convert the Capitol Limited to single-level.  I don't think there are enough single-level coaches and cafe cars for that right now, but it eliminates a bunch of weird platform-height incompatibilities and eliminates a consistent capacity mismatch.  The bilevels all have about 1.5 times the capacity of the single-levels.  3 Superliner sleepers (including the transdorm) are too many; 2 are too few.  3 Viewliners would be about right for most of the year (2 for the low season).  The CL diner is seating overkill for the ridership; a Viewdiner would be about right.  3 Superliner coaches (including the coach/bag sometimes) is usually too many; 2 are too few; 3 single-level coaches would be about right.  The Superliners would relieve capacity constraints on the Western trains.

#5: Lift heaven and Earth and figure out how to get cutoff cars NY-Atlanta on the Crescent, and assign another sleeper there.

These go from "most no-brainer" to "most debatable".  It's clear an extra sleeper on the Cardinal would coin money, as would an extra NY sleeper on the LSL most of the year (though not Jan-Feb).  The others get more debatable.


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## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Convert﻿ the Capitol Limited to single-level.  I don't think there are enough single-level coaches and cafe cars for that right now﻿, but it eliminates a bunch of weird platform-height incompatibilities and eliminates a consistent capacity mismatch.  The bilevels all have about 1.5 times the capacity of the single-levels.  3 Superliner sleepers (including the transdorm) are too many; 2 are too few.  3 Viewliners would be about right for most of the year (2 for the low season).  The CL diner is seating overkill for the ridership; a Viewdiner would be about right.  3 Superliner coaches (including the coach/bag sometimes) is usually too many; 2 are too few; 3 single-level coaches would be about right.  The Superliners would reliev﻿e capacity constraints on the Western trains.


While we are making the Cap single-level, why not extend it up to NYP? I suggested this in another thread a while back, and they could market it as a sort of sister train to the Cardinal (since both would be NYP-CHI via WAS). I don’t think it would even require any extra equipment.


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## Dakota 400

Having been a passenger on the Crescent from New York to New Orleans and one on the Silver Meteor to and from Washington and Fort Lauderdale, I see no reason to remove the in-room commode/lavatory in the Roomettes in the Viewliners I.  For my first trip, which was on the Crescent, such an arrangement does take a bit of an adjustment for the guest with their first time in a Roomette.  Having the commode within my space during the night during my recent Silver Meteor trip was something that I really appreciated.  I had learned the "logistics" of how to use the facility without the issues that I first experienced on the Crescent.  Experience is a great thing!  My suggestion, has I previously have posted, is that at least some of the Viewliner 1 need to be renovated in the interior because of cosmetic details.  For example:  the space holding the toilet paper showed signs of glue around the container to hold it in place and surfaces on the doors and elsewhere showed much wear.  Very minor in my opinion, to be sure.

If the in-room commode/lavatory is removed from the Roomette, installing only one will not be adequate as a replacement.  Even on the Superliner Sleepers, I have found all of the restrooms to be occupied when I wanted to use one.


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## cpotisch

Dakota 400 said:


> If the in-room commode/lavatory is removed from the Roomette, installing only one will not be adequate as a replacement.


The V-II sleepers have two shared toilets in each car, which take up the space of one Roomette (so each car now has 11 revenue). I agree though that it really doesn't make sense to to take cars out of service, remove the in-room toilets, and reduce the capacity by one Roomette, just for consistency between the V-Is and V-IIs.

The Viewliner Is definitely could use some refurbishment, since they are looking a bit tired, but I just don't see the point in taking out the toilets.


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## zephyr17

cpotisch said:


> The V-II sleepers have two shared toilets in each car, which take up the space of one Roomette (so each car now has 11 revenue). I agree though that it really doesn't make sense to to take cars out of service, remove the in-room toilets, and reduce the capacity by one Roomette, just for consistency between the V-Is and V-IIs.
> 
> The Viewliner Is definitely could use some refurbishment, since they are looking a bit tired, but I just don't see the point in taking out the


They want to be able to move cars between trains and not have to keep the different types captive to specific trains, since the cars different capacities.  Otherwise they'd have trouble knowing what the inventory was.


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## cpotisch

zephyr17 said:


> They want to be able to move cars between trains and not have to keep the different types captive to specific trains, since the cars different capacities.  Otherwise they'd have trouble knowing what the inventory was.


Then why not just take one of the 12 Roomettes out of inventory, but not physically replace it?

Or if that doesn't make sense, they _could_ replace the room with those two shared toilets, but not bother taking the in-room toilets _out_ of each Roomette. That would still be less of a hassle than taking those toilets out, and now passengers would have the option to either use the one in their room or a shared one. I mean, are there _any_ actual benefits of taking the toilets out of the Roomettes, in and of itself?


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## neroden

Roomette plumbing in Viewliners has been reported to be one of the biggest maintenance nightmares of the otherwise-pretty-good Viewliner I designs, so there *are* savings to removing them.


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## CSXfoamer1997

The Viewliner II sleepers are designed to reach 125 MPH. The original Viewliner sleepers were originally designed to reach 110 MPH. Is there any telling as to when they'll be rebuilt to reach 125 MPH so that the rest of the long distance trains can reach 125 MPH?


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## PVD

I sort of recall they were designed for 125 but never certified past 110. Were that to be the case, the upgrade in max speed would not be a major project. If my memory is incorrect I'm sure the correct story will emerge in the next few posts.


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## cpotisch

PVD said:


> I sort of recall they were designed for 125 but never certified past 110. Were that to be the case, the upgrade in max speed would not be a major project. If my memory is incorrect I'm sure the correct story will emerge in the next few posts.


I'm pretty sure they were designed for AND are certified for 125. I do wonder what they will have to do to the V-Is to get them up to 125...


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## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> The Viewliner II sleepers are designed to reach 125 MPH. The original Viewliner sleepers were originally designed to reach 110 MPH. Is there any telling as to when they'll be rebuilt to reach 125 MPH so that the rest of the long distance trains can reach 125 MPH?


Why does everyone make such a big deal out of this? It's not going to save much time. A couple of seconds at best. And the only place they'd hit 125 is on the corridor. Unless there are some other sections of Railroad that Amtrak Long Distance Trains use that reach 125 mph. 



cpotisch said:


> I'm pretty sure they were designed for AND certified for 125. I do wonder what they will have to do to the V-Is to get them up to 125...


If they were certified for 125 mph they would already be running 125 mph.


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## cpotisch

Acela150 said:


> If they were certified for 125 mph they would already be running 125 mph.


Viewliner Is are only certified for 110, which makes them the bottleneck on long distance trains.


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## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Viewliner Is are only certified for 110, which makes them the bottleneck on long distance trains.


There is no bottleneck. The running times on the NEC aren't much different from the 125mph trains.  One only need to look at the 125mph Carolinian to see there isn't much of a difference.  The schedule has to do with dwell, passengers, potential baggage, express, private cars, etc. 

The discharge "110" mph train often make the  WAS-NYP under 3 hours and that is based on light loads of mail, baggage and/or express or lack of special service requests.


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## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> There is no bottleneck. The running times on the NEC aren't much different from the 125mph trains.  One only need to look at the 125mph Carolinian to see there isn't much of a difference.  The schedule has to do with dwell, passengers, potential baggage, express, private cars, etc.
> 
> The discharge "110" mph train often make the  WAS-NYP under 3 hours and that is based on light loads of mail, baggage and/or express or lack of special service requests.


So I was correct that V-IIs can do 125, right?

(mentioning [email protected][/USER])


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## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> So I was correct that V-IIs can do 125, right?


They can do 125 but the schedule difference between the 125 trains and 110mph is not impressive so there isn't a focus on upgrading the View Is to 125, even though they were tested a few years ago.


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## CSXfoamer1997

cpotisch said:


> Viewliner Is are only certified for 110, which makes them the bottleneck on long distance trains.


That's the point I was trying to make.


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## PerRock

The YouTube channel All The Stations; just took a ride & reviewed the new GWR sleeping cars, which looked pretty nice. While their compartment did look quite cramped there were some nice touches and furnishings could be nice to bring to the US, in particular the ladder seems really clever & space-saving.



Peter


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## cocojacoby

Don't forget that the Viewliners ran with the heritage diners which were limited to 110 so that limited the entire train.  BUT I was on a northbound Silver Meteor a few years ago eating in the diner and we were hitting 125 mph on the corridor north of D.C.!  Apparently they can run that fast but we were bouncing all over the place and the ride was incredibly rough so it's more of a passenger comfort thing.


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## Acela150

cocojacoby said:


> Don't forget that the Viewliners ran with the heritage diners which were limited to 110 so that limited the entire train.  BUT I was on a northbound Silver Meteor a few years ago eating in the diner and we were hitting 125 mph on the corridor north of D.C.!  Apparently they can run that fast but we were bouncing all over the place and the ride was incredibly rough so it's more of a passenger comfort thing.


I’m going to stop you there. Heritage equipment was and is limited to 110 mph and runs under train type “C” on the NEC. ACSES would have put the train into a penalty application if the engineer even tried to reach 125 mph. And you may say that ACSES the PTC was put into effect in late 2015. But there were sections of the corridor where ACSES was in service. Those areas are where the Acela trainsets reach speeds over 125 mph. Which at the time before ACSES was corridor wide was the entire shoreline past New Haven to Boston. And in New Jersey as well as parts of Delaware and Maryland.


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## cocojacoby

Acela150 said:


> I’m going to stop you there. Heritage equipment was and is limited to 110 mph and runs under train type “C” on the NEC. ACSES would have put the train into a penalty application if the engineer even tried to reach 125 mph. And you may say that ACSES the PTC was put into effect in late 2015. But there were sections of the corridor where ACSES was in service. Those areas are where the Acela trainsets reach speeds over 125 mph. Which at the time before ACSES was corridor wide was the entire shoreline past New Haven to Boston. And in New Jersey as well as parts of Delaware and Maryland.


Don't remember where it happened, but it did.


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## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> Don't remember where it happened, but it did.


The Heritage equipment was 60-70 years old, and legally could not exceed 110, as Steve said. Did you check your phone or GPS or something to see the speed? And are you _sure_ that you were eating in a Heritage diner instead of a ViewDiner?


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## jis

There really isn’t any LD train except the Palmetto that is permitted 125mph even today. It doesn’t matter which Diner is on the train. The V-1s are 110mph restricted.


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## cpotisch

jis said:


> There really isn’t any LD train except the Palmetto that is permitted 125mph even today. It doesn’t matter which Diner is on the train. The V-1s are 110mph restricted.


Right. How I was able to forget that having just mentioned it a few posts before is beyond me. :blush:   :help:


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## neroden

There's nothing fundamental preventing the Viewliner Is from being certified for 125 mph rather than 110 mph.  They probably will be sooner or later.  It's only made sense to try since the last Heritage car went away.  And it really makes very little difference.


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## cocojacoby

cpotisch said:


> The Heritage equipment was 60-70 years old, and legally could not exceed 110, as Steve said. Did you check your phone or GPS or something to see the speed? And are you _sure_ that you were eating in a Heritage diner instead of a ViewDiner?


Yeah, I had a speed app.  I remember we were eating breakfast so it was northbound in the morning.  I have never eaten in a Viewdiner.  It was before their time.  It was anywhere up to 10 years ago now and definitely north of D.C.  We didn't maintain the speed for very long.  I remember my coffee was splashing around and the staff had difficulty serving since we were bouncing around so much but they didn't appear to be concerned.  I was very surprised since I was aware of the speed limit for these cars.


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## west point

May we suspect that the V-1s were not certified to 125 was because there was no way to certify the heritage bags to that speed?  Timetable instructions had different speeds for the H-bags none over 110. So why certify V-1s to 125 for the extra expense with MAYBE SOME ADDITIONAL EXPENSES TO MAINTAIN THE 125? Now the 110 restriction  gums up the NEC somewhat so make the certification.  Also the AM-1 & -2s are 125 MPH.    Excuese the type change computer fumble fingers..


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## Thirdrail7

cocojacoby said:


> Yeah, I had a speed app.  I remember we were eating breakfast so it was northbound in the morning.  I have never eaten in a Viewdiner.  It was before their time.  It was anywhere up to 10 years ago now and definitely north of D.C.  We didn't maintain the speed for very long.  I remember my coffee was splashing around and the staff had difficulty serving since we were bouncing around so much but they didn't appear to be concerned.  I was very surprised since I was aware of the speed limit for these cars.


Your "speed app" indicating you were traveling at 125mph was probably as accurate as this  the speed app this gentleman was using. 



west point said:


> May we suspect that the V-1s were not certified to 125 was because there was no way to certify the heritage bags to that speed?  Timetable instructions had different speeds for the H-bags none over 110. So why certify V-1s to 125 for the extra expense with MAYBE SOME ADDITIONAL EXPENSES TO MAINTAIN THE 125? Now the 110 restriction  gums up the NEC somewhat so make the certification.  Also the AM-1 & -2s are 125 MPH.    Excuese the type change computer fumble fingers..


Before we completely hijack this thread, let's remember they attempted to  certify the View Is and a few other pieces of equipment a few years ago.  Some modifications are needed (something around the truck area) and the updated wheel profile is needed. However, the current regime is not interested in this right now, so unless something dramatically changes, the View I fleet will remain at 110mph for the foreseeable future.


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## Acela150

cocojacoby said:


> Don't remember where it happened, but it did.


I'll put it this way. Those Speed apps aren't entirely reliable. I once had an app tell me my Acela was going 330mph. I can personally guarantee you that the speedometer in the lead motor didn't get much over 110 mph.  PTC trumps your 125 mph theory.


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## StriderGDM

So back to the question at hand:

I'd wait until the first 3 ViewSleeper IIs come out and assign a pair to 66/67. This is a train that really needs a sleeper back.  1 in each direction and a protect.

Now, you could probably then assign say one round-trip a week to whatever train needs another sleeper. I'm guessing this time of year it's a Silver Service train.

Remember, you don't need to add it to EVERY trip. So even if some days you had 2(3?) sleepers and a couple with 3(4?) you've added revenue.

Now, your can use your 1 extra ViewSleeper for protect and if you have to use it, comp the one room inconvenienced, or use a ViewSleeper I as a protect and if you use it, sell the last room at a discount.

After that, I'd wait I'd probably for another 3 more, and then do the same thing as above 2 a second train (i.e. additional cars on the busiest days that make the most sense).

At some point, you can then finally go to extra cars on every day of the week.

Only when I've got somewhere between 15-20 VIIs on property would I start to refurbish the VIs.

At least that's what I would do, but no one at Amtrak is taking my calls.


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## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Your "speed app" indicating you were traveling at 125mph was probably as accurate as this  the speed app this gentleman was using.
> 
> Before we completely hijack this thread, let's remember they attempted to  certify the View Is and a few other pieces of equipment a few years ago.  Some modifications are needed (something around the truck area) and the updated wheel profile is needed. However, the current regime is not interested in this right now, so unless something dramatically changes, the View I fleet will remain at 110mph for the foreseeable future.


Interesting.  I'd assume they'd update the wheel profiles incrementally as they "true" them, since that's what you do with wheel profiles.  I do wonder what other modifications were deemed to be necessary.


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## daybeers

Thirdrail7 said:


> They can do 125 but the schedule difference between the 125 trains and 110mph is not impressive so there isn't a focus on upgrading the View Is to 125, even though they were tested a few years ago.


What if an LD train on the NEC is running late? A NER or Acela could easily be stuck behind it, correct?


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## jis

There are multiple tracks available on the NEC. Usually the LD train will be held somewhere and the Acela or NER will overtake the LD. Usually happens at a station where LDs dwell much longer than the corridor trains. 

Just the 15mph difference is not big enough to make the difference in running times between two crossovers where the LD can be removed from the path of a faster train that much of an issue. Incidentally this also happens between NERs and Acelas, so nothing unusual.


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## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Interesting.  I'd assume they'd update the wheel profiles incrementally as they "true" them, since that's what you do with wheel profiles.  I do wonder what other modifications were deemed to be necessary.


What does it mean to "update the wheel profile"?


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## cocojacoby

StriderGDM said:


> I'd wait until the first 3 ViewSleeper IIs come out and assign a pair to 66/67. This is a train that really needs a sleeper back.  1 in each direction and a protect


Agree (and maybe the best bet for a Delta One lie-flat seat experiment) BUT . . . does anyone think it would be better to rearrange the routes south of Richmond and run the train to Norfolk instead?

Some population info:

Norfolk (242,070) + Virginia Beach (454,846) + Petersburg (31,396) = *728,312*

Newport News = *181,345*


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## west point

biggest problem is the 2 and 3 track sections WASH - PHL to prevent delaying other Amtrak trains


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## jis

west point said:


> biggest problem is the 2 and 3 track sections WASH - PHL to prevent delaying other Amtrak trains


Can you be more specific about how much time is exactly lost because of what you claim to be the biggest problem?

Also BTW Wilmington to PHL is almost wholly four tracks. Also the rest of it is three tracks except for two track segments on three bridges.


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## MARC Rider

Acela150 said:


> I'll put it this way. Those Speed apps aren't entirely reliable. I once had an app tell me my Acela was going 330mph. I can personally guarantee you that the speedometer in the lead motor didn't get much over 110 mph.  PTC trumps your 125 mph theory.


In Baltimore, we have speed cameras that hand out speeding tickets to cars stopped at a red light.  You have to take this technology with a little grain of salt.


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## AmtrakBlue

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/blog/viewliner-ii-an-end-in-sight/


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## Acela150

jis said:


> Can you be more specific about how much time is exactly lost because of what you claim to be the biggest problem?
> 
> Also BTW Wilmington to PHL is almost wholly four tracks. Also the rest of it is three tracks except for two track segments on three bridges.


From HOLLY interlocking to PHIL interlocking is all 4 tracks. So about 4 or 5 miles north of Wilmington to 3 and a 1/2 outside of PHL is all 4 tracks. 



MARC Rider said:


> In Baltimore, we have speed cameras that hand out speeding tickets to cars stopped at a red light.  You have to take this technology with a little grain of salt.


Agreed. I used to take Roosevelt Blvd to work everyday. There are several red light cameras along the roadway. I would witness the Red Light Camera take photos of cars when the light was green.


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## cocojacoby

AmtrakBlue said:


> https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/blog/viewliner-ii-an-end-in-sight/


Holly crap . . . . it's actually happening!


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## tricia

AmtrakBlue said:


> https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/blog/viewliner-ii-an-end-in-sight/


So, assuming it's true that the first new sleeper will be delivered next week, what needs to happen and how long is it likely to take before we see one or more of these actually in service?


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## Devil's Advocate

According to the article best case scenario seems to be end of 2019 for revenue service.  My guess is that there will be delays for testing, returning, retesting, accepting, modifying, retesting (again), and training.


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## StriderGDM

BTW, I got thinking, I think all the bag-dorms are "spoken for" (for example probably on 448/449) but I wonder if that's a better choice on 66/67 instead of a full-sleeper, or in addition to.

Honestly, there need to be more baggage options in the Northeast.


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## jis

66/67 already has a full baggage car. No?


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## StriderGDM

Does it? I thought it had been removed at some point. 
Even so, does it need a full one? Or could a full one be better used elsewhere? I honestly don't know.


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## Acela150

jis said:


> 66/67 already has a full baggage car. No?


It does. But it's very lightly used from what I've seen.


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## cpotisch

StriderGDM said:


> BTW, I got thinking, I think all the bag-dorms are "spoken for" (for example probably on 448/449)


What are the actual odds that they put a baggage car of any kind back on the Boston section? I doubt they want to re-lengthen the train and pay the costs associated with checked baggage. A bag-dorm would have definitely made a lot of sense as a _replacement_ for the former full baggage car (which really didn't need 80 feet of storage space), but I don't think they'll go in that direction now.


----------



## cpotisch

StriderGDM said:


> Does it? I thought it had been removed at some point.
> Even so, does it need a full one? Or could a full one be better used elsewhere? I honestly don't know.





Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 66/67 already has a full baggage car. No?
> 
> 
> 
> It does. But it's very lightly used from what I've seen. ﻿
Click to expand...

Now that 448/449 doesn't have a baggage car, I really wouldn't want 65/66/67 to lose its baggage car as well, since that is currently the only way to get checked bags to and from Boston. :unsure:


----------



## Dakota 400

StriderGDM said:


> Honestly, there need to be more baggage options in the Northeast.


There needs to be more stations that handle checked baggage throughout Amtrak's system!


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Dakota 400 said:


> There needs to be more stations that handle checked baggage throughout Amtrak's system!


That will cost money.

With the current Amtrak administration it all about cutting expenses.  Push the envelope and see how bad people complain.

No idea if the bag-dorms will ever turn a wheel in service.  Such a weird amount of cars (10).  Add the recent removal of baggage cars across the system, and the removal of station personnel...

At this point I am just hoping the funding for Amtrak does not get pulled to build a barrier between Mexico and the US.


----------



## NW cannonball

cpotisch said:


> What does it mean to "update the wheel profile"?


Nobody has responded to this question so far, so

The profile in question  is what you see on an engineering (mechanical, not railroad) drawing of the shape of a steel wheel. Viewed at right angle to the axis of rotation.  Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel f you look at the angle to the rail outboard of the flange - getting the conical angle right (and actually that part of the wheel tread isn't conical it's more refined where the metal meets the metal, wheel meets the railhead, which is also more refined and engineered  and accounts for normal wear and tear.

Steel wheels on steel rails - less than two hundred years of engineering refinement.

The wheel profile is where the metal (wheel) meets the road (also metal - special steel)

The details I dunno, but I know there's a lot of serious work done in the last centuries on every last millimeter of that profile.

Like tiny changes of tread slope and such.


----------



## dgvrengineer

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> That will cost money.
> 
> With the current Amtrak administration it all about cutting expenses.  Push the envelope and see how bad people complain.
> 
> No idea if the bag-dorms will ever turn a wheel in service.  Such a weird amount of cars (10).  Add the recent removal of baggage cars across the system, and the removal of station personnel... ﻿


Cardinal could use one to free up sleeper space now used by crew.  Hard to get a room on that train.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Cardinal need another sleeper.  Cardinal needs 7 day a week service.  Cardinal needs investment.  This will cost money, will the return on investment cover it? Will Amtrak accounting system show a profit? Will the power to be allow (show) a overnight train to be profitable?

Cardinal needs a dining car even if it’s just for LSL, Capital style of food service.  Cardinal could use a full sleeper, with two Viewliner out of service this train may not get a second sleeper this summer.  A bag/dorm would be useful.

Cardinal most definitely need investment.  Should we start a Kickstarter funding project?

One thinks a Kickstarter funding project to get the Capital Limited Drop cars in Pittsburgh would be easy enough of a goal.  Of course the physical switch is the easiest part of the whole project, with out support from Amtrak there never will be service between Chicago via Pittsburgh to Philadelphia.


----------



## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> One thinks a Kickstarter funding project to get the Capital Limited Drop cars in Pittsburgh would be easy enough of a goal.  Of course the physical switch is the easiest part of the whole project, with out support from Amtrak there never will be service between Chicago via Pittsburgh to Philadelphia.


I highly doubt a Kickstarter campaign for Capitol/Pennsy though-cars would be effective...


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cpotisch said:


> I highly doubt a Kickstarter campaign for Capitol/Pennsy though-cars would be effective...


Of course it would not be effective.  However the excuse of not having the switch need to drop cars at Pittsburgh would be null.  You still need a “want to” for it to be effective.


----------



## neroden

cpotisch said:


> What does it mean to "update the wheel profile"?


Train wheels are conical, and they're *very specific* conical shapes.  The exact shape of that cone is the "wheel profile".  As the wheel gets worn down, it no longer fits the original wheel profile, and it has to be ground back into "true".  If you're changing the "wheel profile", you do it when you need to "true" the wheels anyway.


----------



## neroden

cpotisch said:


> What are the actual odds that they put a baggage car of any kind back on the Boston section? I doubt they want to re-lengthen the train and pay the costs associated with checked baggage. A bag-dorm would have definitely made a lot of sense as a _replacement_ for the former full baggage car (which really didn't need 80 feet of storage space), but I don't think they'll go in that direction now.


Demand for sleeper compartments on the Boston side has been perpetually lower than on the NY side.  It still makes sense to put a bag-dorm on the Boston end to replace the full sleeper (and raise prices on that side!) while adding sleepers to the NY end.  Dunno whether they'll DO it, but it makes sense.


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> That will cost money.


Not really.



> With the current Amtrak administration it all about cutting expenses.  Push the envelope and see how bad people complain.


True, there's been a lot of dumbassery (implementing schemes to cut revenues) from the current Amtrak administration. 



> At this point I am just hoping the funding for Amtrak does not get pulled to build a barrier between Mexico and the US.


Won't happen.  Wall is dead.  Even the anti-immigration extremists realize it's stupid, so most of the Republican Senators oppose it.  Trump caved once, so everyone knows he will cave again.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Demand for sleeper compartments on the Boston side has been perpetually lower than on the NY side.  It still makes sense to put a bag-dorm on the Boston end to replace the full sleeper (and raise prices on that side!) while adding sleepers to the NY end.  Dunno whether they'll DO it, but it makes sense.


The Boston section has like two crew members who need their own Roomettes, in addition to the SCA, right?

Because I really don't think 448/449 could at all handle demand with literally five or so Roomettes (there are eight total in a bag-dorm) and zero Bedrooms. Its two Bedrooms, one Accessible Bedroom, and 10 Roomettes often sell out anyway. I just don't think one bag-dorm would be even remotely sufficient.


----------



## John Bobinyec

With a recent announcement, it looks like the Viewliner II (V-II) sleepers will start coming online before the end of this year.  They are getting enough V-II's to supplement the current fleet of V-I's, but not completely replace them.  Since the presence of toilets in the roomettes is a controversial issue at best, but important to some customers, will Amtrak allow you to make sure you get the kind of facilities that you want?

jb


----------



## StriderGDM

No, the toilets are a maintenance nightmare, they will be removed from the V-1s


----------



## cpotisch

John Bobinyec said:


> With a recent announcement, it looks like the Viewliner II (V-II) sleepers will start coming online before the end of this year.  They are getting enough V-II's to supplement the current fleet of V-I's, but not completely replace them.  Since the presence of toilets in the roomettes is a controversial issue at best, but important to some customers, will Amtrak allow you to make sure you get the kind of facilities that you want?
> 
> jb


I doubt that they will let people choose like that, since it would be extremely confusing to have two different varieties of Viewliner Roomettes available. It would also almost certainly result in cases of angry passengers getting the "toilet configuration" they don't want due to cars being bad-ordered.

What I really think makes the most sense here is to replace one Roomette with the two shared toilets like the V-IIs, but to still leave the en suite toilets in the other 11 Roomettes. That way, they don't have to go to the trouble during the overhaul of taking all the toilets out (which means the cars can be put back into service faster), all sleepers will have exactly 11 revenue Roomettes, and passengers riding in V-Is will have be able to use the bathroom in their room OR at the end of the hall. As to how they would now have to advertise the amenities of Roomettes since some will have the en suite and some won't, they could just leave it as a "surprise" to those who end up in a V-I, since those who don't like it can just use the one down the hall.


----------



## jis

Taking the toilets out of service is very easy. Just bolt the covers shut. It really is yet another case of AU solutions looking for a problem, which actually creates more problems than it solves. :lol:


----------



## John Bobinyec

cpotisch said:


> I doubt that they will let people choose like that, since it would be extremely confusing to have two different varieties of Viewliner Roomettes available. It would also almost certainly result in cases of angry passengers getting the "toilet configuration" they don't want due to cars being bad-ordered.
> 
> What I really think makes the most sense here is to replace one Roomette with the two shared toilets like the V-IIs, but to still leave the en suite toilets in the other 11 Roomettes. That way, they don't have to go to the trouble during the overhaul of taking all the toilets out (which means the cars can be put back into service faster), all sleepers will have exactly 11 revenue Roomettes, and passengers riding in V-Is will have be able to use the bathroom in their room OR at the end of the hall. As to how they would now have to advertise the amenities of Roomettes since some will have the en suite and some won't, they could just leave it as a "surprise" to those who end up in a V-I, since those who don't like it can just use the one down the hall.


Doesn't work for people who have to get up umpteen times during the night to go to the bathroom AND who are not steady enough on their feet to walk down the hallway on a moving train.

jb


----------



## west point

We are concerned that just one V-2 sleeper is coming as has been posted.  We are not sure that the one number is correct?.  Hopefully not? .  If the difference in what has happened with the bag dorms can we expect that much delay for the sleepers?


----------



## jis

Do not expect any to be in service before 4th Calendar Quarter of 2019 is what I am hearing.


----------



## R30A

Sending a single car is normal. Future deliveries will likely be multiples, but the first one is rarely such.


----------



## capltd29

John Bobinyec said:


> Doesn't work for people who have to get up umpteen times during the night to go to the bathroom AND who are not steady enough on their feet to walk down the hallway on a moving train.
> 
> jb


Well fortunately there is an accessible room that has a toilet, this is why they have that room.


----------



## jis

John Bobinyec said:


> Doesn't work for people who have to get up umpteen times during the night to go to the bathroom AND who are not steady enough on their feet to walk down the hallway on a moving train.
> jb


They appear to somehow make it work on Superliners though [emoji57]


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 22 hours ago, John Bobinyec said:
> Doesn't work for people who have to get up umpteen times during the night to go to the bathroom AND who are not steady enough on their feet to walk down the hallway on a moving train.
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> ﻿
> They appear to somehow make it work on Superliners though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ﻿
Click to expand...

True, but it was still nice to not have to do that on VLs.


----------



## cpotisch

capltd29 said:


> John Bobinyec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't work for people who have to get up umpteen times during the night to go to the bathroom AND who are not steady enough on their feet to walk down the hallway on a moving train.
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> Well fortunately there is an accessible room that has a toilet, this is why they have that room.
Click to expand...

The standard Bedrooms also have a toilet (and sink and shower), not just the Accessible.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> True, but it was still nice to not have to do that on VLs.


Hey, it is your generation that hates it. Go and have a chat with your cohorts :lol:


----------



## Thirdrail7

west point said:


> We are concerned that just one V-2 sleeper is coming as has been posted.  We are not sure that the one number is correct?.  Hopefully not? .  If the difference in what has happened with the bag dorms can we expect that much delay for the sleepers?


Unless something has changed, it was one diner and one sleeper. They were actually supposed to make the move on Monday but it is a holiday. I haven't had time to follow it.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7 said:


> Unless something has changed, it was one diner and one sleeper. They were actually supposed to make the move on Monday but it is a holiday. I haven't had time to follow it.


Well, that was easy. 






What isn't easy is these cars are apparently named after rivers.  I may go by the last three numbers but will start with this:


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> [img=[URL="https://api.mapbox.com/styles/v1/mapbox/outdoors-v9/static/url-https%3A%2F%2Fwww.trails.com%2Fimages%2FbrowseByMap%2Fmap-icons%2FFlyFishing.png(-78.06456,38.31243)/-78.06456,38.31243,15/200x120?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoidHJhaWxzIiwiYSI6ImNpdGwyM2w4aDAwMDUyeW84dTE2Yzkycm4ifQ.Rb2yrBLWc3M3sPtwE2yUtA%5B/img%5D"]https://api.mapbox.com/styles/v1/mapbox/outdoors-v9/static/url-https%3A%2F%2Fwww.trails.com%2Fimages%2FbrowseByMap%2Fmap-icons%2FFlyFishing.png(-78.06456,38.31243)/-78.06456,38.31243,15/200x120?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoidHJhaWxzIiwiYSI6ImNpdGwyM2w4aDAwMDUyeW84dTE2Yzkycm4ifQ.Rb2yrBLWc3M3sPtwE2yUtA[/img][/URL]


That link doesn't work.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> That link doesn't work.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Unless something has changed, it was one diner and one sleeper. They were actually supposed to make the move on Monday but it is a holiday. I haven't had time to follow it.


God forbid the railroad calls an extra move on a Holiday.  <_<  I thought the railroad ran 365/24/7? 

So much sarcasm intended in this post it's unreal.


----------



## capltd29

cpotisch said:


> The standard Bedrooms also have a toilet (and sink and shower), not just the Accessible.


They do indeed! However the Bedrooms have that as a luxury item as opposed to what sounds like a necessity (mobility, etc).

I dont care If they have toilets or not, but there must be a community toilet. If you've ever traveled with your parent, its preferable not to have to wake them up and ask them to leave or have them close their eyes and/or stuff their head into a pillow while you urinate in the middle of the night.


----------



## NW cannonball

capltd29 said:


> They do indeed! However the Bedrooms have that as a luxury item as opposed to what sounds like a necessity (mobility, etc).
> 
> I dont care If they have toilets or not, but there must be a community toilet. If you've ever traveled with your parent, its preferable not to have to wake them up and ask them to leave or have them close their eyes and/or stuff their head into a pillow while you urinate in the middle of the night.


I think most of us 70+ year parents don't mind *much* if the kids, grandkids, great-grandkids -- have to widdle sometimes. And if I need to  pee, the younger generations politely ignore. In return for me being peed on by them so many times.

But when travelling with non-family - which I've done many times -- that's different.

The one time I was arrested (and later released) the cellmate couldn't or wouldn't use they toilet in the tiny cubicle in my presence, I turned my face to the wall, but not good enough. He called the the jailer wanting me removed from the cell while he used the toilet. The joke was, the toilet and drinking water both broken in the cell we shared 

So, for me, Amtrak facilities mostly OK. What I've seen of the Bedrooms -- I'd rather use the shared shower down the hall.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> God forbid the railroad calls an extra move on a Holiday.  <_<  I thought the railroad ran 365/24/7?
> 
> So much sarcasm intended in this post it's unreal.


They called the move since NS told them the MON-TUE slot is what works so, they are heading up as we speak.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> They called the move since NS told them the MON-TUE slot is what works so, they are heading up as we speak.


Rogaaaaaaaaa! Holiday pay for all!


----------



## mgl1978

Rapidan River headed south at ALX tonight.


----------



## Pere Flyer

mgl1978 said:


> Rapidan River headed south at ALX tonight.
> /monthly_2019_02/DSC00689.thumb.JPG.68db56f4d59e9b2d6a99cb0047000926.JPG
> /monthly_2019_02/DSC00690.thumb.JPG.03ea98945dde73fbb28e038acd38e9b6.JPG


Beautiful!


----------



## cocojacoby

Was there no better known river to name the car after?  How about Shenandoah?

P.S.  I vote for Boozy Creek for a new "First Class Lounge" (aka a diner).


----------



## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> Was there no better known river to name the car after?  How about Shenandoah?
> 
> P.S.  I vote for Boozy Creek for a new "First Class Lounge" (aka a diner).


Here are the names for all the Viewliner II sleepers. There’s no Shenandoah, but most of these seem pretty decent.


----------



## jis

The list of all assigned names to Viewliner Sleepers both VL 1s and VL 2s, can be found here: http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-viewname.shtml


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> The list of all assigned names to Viewliner Sleepers both VL 1s and VL 2s, can be found here: http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-viewname.shtml


Look one post above.


----------



## jis

Making information available twice causes no real harm you know?


----------



## PVD

CP:

JIS' list includes the renamed VLI .....by the time all the VL2 are all in service some of the rivers may have run dry.....some folks may not have followed the link you posted because it says VL2 in the title, and that list is already visible in the post....


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Making information available twice causes no real harm you know?


Remember that point next time I say something you’ve already said.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Remember that point next time I say something you’ve already said.


Of course I won't, and I will duly castigate you 

Growing old has its advantages :unsure:


----------



## Thirdrail7

mgl1978 said:


> Rapidan River headed south at ALX tonight.


Well done, Fleet Three!! Thank you!!


----------



## BuffaloBoy

NW cannonball said:


> Nobody has responded to this question so far, so
> 
> The profile in question  is what you see on an engineering (mechanical, not railroad) drawing of the shape of a steel wheel. Viewed at right angle to the axis of rotation.  Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_wheel f you look at the angle to the rail outboard of the flange - getting the conical angle right (and actually that part of the wheel tread isn't conical it's more refined where the metal meets the metal, wheel meets the railhead, which is also more refined and engineered  and accounts for normal wear and tear.
> 
> Steel wheels on steel rails - less than two hundred years of engineering refinement.
> 
> The wheel profile is where the metal (wheel) meets the road (also metal - special steel)
> 
> The details I dunno, but I know there's a lot of serious work done in the last centuries on every last millimeter of that profile.
> 
> Like tiny changes of tread slope and such.


I guess I will be the first to respond cannonbal! Unless physics/math was a major, most people on this site would not understand what you are saying and quite naturally would not respond. I personally wondered about these things back in 1976 when I hired out as a brakeman in Buffalo on Conrail after my discharge from the US Army. I was attached to a combat engineer unit and had a license to operate a ton of heavy equipment and nothing scared me until I made my first trip on the head end of a TV train out of Frontier Yard to Collinwood Yard.. I panicked (other crew never knew) every time I saw an approaching train on a curve because the headlight would shine directly on the rails we were on and I thought we were on the same track.. I eventually got over that and I started wondering how in the heck these monster locomotives could go around a curve on top of wood ties and missing spikes and not come off the rails. That's when I became a true railroader I think. I looked at train axles and realized that they had angles that made sense. I understood what flanges were for, I understood why rails had those rounded edges.and I realized that I was hooked!


----------



## StriderGDM

Personally I'm disappointed there's no Housatonic River on the list. I'd suggest it's a larger, more known river than some of those shown.

The obvious solution is to exercise the 70 car option so more sleepers can be delivered and they can name more rivers.


----------



## railbuck

StriderGDM said:


> The obvious solution is to exercise the 70 car option so more sleepers can be delivered and they can name more rivers.


Nice as it would be to have the extra equipment, I suspect we are a bit too far downstream for that to happen.


----------



## cpotisch

railbuck said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The obvious solution is to exercise the 70 car option so more sleepers can be delivered and they can name more rivers.﻿
> 
> 
> 
> Nice as it would be to have the extra equipment, I suspect w﻿e are a bit too far downstream for that to happen.﻿
Click to expand...

I think he was joking.


----------



## railbuck

cpotisch said:


> I think he was joking.


So was I (or did you miss the pun?). <_<


----------



## StriderGDM

He was just going with the flow.

Seriously, I was partly joking, but yes, I do think Amtrak SHOULD take advantage of the option, but I don't expect them too, especially under this administration.


----------



## jis

StriderGDM said:


> Seriously, I was partly joking, but yes, I do think Amtrak SHOULD take advantage of the option, but I don't expect them too, especially under this administration.


Even if they did, it would probably be in the latter half of this century that they will finally arrive. :lol:


----------



## Ryan

railbuck said:


> a bit too far downstream





StriderGDM said:


> going with the flow


You guys are really getting carried away with these puns.


----------



## StriderGDM

Ryan said:


> You guys are really getting carried away with these puns.


I'm just trying to keep current on the progress of the cars.


----------



## StriderGDM

jis said:


> Even if they did, it would probably be in the latter half of this century that they will finally arrive. :lol:


Truth!

Actually... at this rate, if the option is still available, they'll be in place to exercise it right after the 2020 elections. That could be convenient


----------



## pennyk

While passing through the yard in Hialeah (on train 97), I’m pretty sure saw the Rapidan River sleeper hanging out.


----------



## Acela150

pennyk said:


> View attachment 12999
> While passing through the yard in Hialeah (on train 97), I’m pretty sure saw the Rapidan River sleeper hanging out.



Well that’s what the name plate says it is. [emoji6]


----------



## Thirdrail7

Rapidan River has moved to New York for training and familiarization.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Rapidan River has moved to New York for training and familiarization.



That's hopeful.


----------



## RebelRider

Rapidan River, 62502, is headed back to Florida on 97(03).


----------



## AmtrakBlue

RebelRider said:


> Rapidan River, 62502, is headed back to Florida on 97(03).


That explains my double take when I saw it go by tonight heading into WIL. Had I known 97 was running 40 mins late I would have been prepared to get a pic or video of it even though I did not know the new sleeper was on it.

Was it in revenue service? I thought I only counted four viewliners. And I don't think there was sleeper behind the baggage car, but I could be mistaken as there were trees and bushes blocking some of my view.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> Was it in revenue service?



It was deadheading.


----------



## pennyk

RebelRider said:


> Rapidan River, 62502, is headed back to Florida on 97(03).



Rapidan River was behind the engines. I was able to get a quick photo as it passed me on the platform. I was unable to walk up to the car and get a better shot. It seemed like hundreds of passengers were detraining from coach in Orlando.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

pennyk said:


> View attachment 13339
> 
> 
> Rapidan River was behind the engines. I was able to get a quick photo as it passed me on the platform. I was unable to walk up to the car and get a better shot. It seemed like hundreds of passengers were detraining from coach in Orlando.



Ah, I missed it on the front of the train. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## west point

AmtrakBlue said:


> Ah, I missed it on the front of the train. Thanks for the clarification.


 Possible break in mileage ?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

west point said:


> Possible break in mileage ?



?
What I meant is that the front had passed behind the trees before I realized it was 97. 97 was running 40 mins late so wasn’t expecting to see it during my walk.


----------



## JustOnce

Is 62502 in service yet? We were watching the SB Silver Meteor go through Ashland maybe a week ago(?), and one of the moderators mentioned that that must be a V2 sleeper as it had the Phase III paint. I hadn't heard anything about 62502 going north again or it entering service. Does Amtrak have any V1's in Phase III? It was too dark to see a car number.


----------



## Acela150

There is one VL I sleeper in Phase III paint. That is what you saw.


----------



## JustOnce

Acela150 said:


> There is one VL I sleeper in Phase III paint. That is what you saw.


Thanks! Occam's Razor in action: the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.


----------



## pennyk

Acela150 said:


> There is one VL I sleeper in Phase III paint. That is what you saw.


I’m in 62043, New River, on 97.


----------



## Acela150

Ok Penny. Who’d you pay off to have that car? Lol!!!


----------



## pennyk

Acela150 said:


> Ok Penny. Who’d you pay off to have that car? Lol!!!



It looks better on the outside than it does on the inside (at least my room). LOL. I am using my gaffer tape this trip. 
I have a great SCA and so far, we are not running too late.


----------



## pennyk

If this has been mentioned previously, forgive me. I was on the Meteor this weekend and my sleeping car attendant informed me that the H room on the new Viewliners will have a different configuration. The toilet will no longer be enclosed with a door. It will be behind a curtain (similar to the way it is on Superliners). There will be an enclosed shower. I have not seen this with my own eyes and I am not vouching for the accuracy of my SCA's observations.

I personally am not looking forward to the new Viewliner sleepers. (those of you that know me personally know why). I do not ride in the H room, but I think if I did, I would like a door enclosed, as opposed to a curtain enclosed, toilet.


----------



## AG1

The open toilet makes transferring from a wheelchair much easier with a sideways move. The present toilet in a narrow closet requires super arm strength to transfer with an 180 degree turn required.


----------



## jis

AG1 said:


> The open toilet makes transferring from a wheelchair much easier with a sideways move. The present toilet in a narrow closet requires super arm strength to transfer with an 180 degree turn required.


Yup. The H room should be made most convenient for the handicapped people. The convenience of non-handicapped people as to whether they like curtains or not should be a very secondary concern, if at all.


----------



## Thirdrail7

JustOnce said:


> Is 62502 in service yet?



Not yet.


----------



## pennyk

AG1 said:


> The open toilet makes transferring from a wheelchair much easier with a sideways move. The present toilet in a narrow closet requires super arm strength to transfer with an 180 degree turn required.


Thank you for your insight. Being able-bodied and not needing an H room, I did not consider the logistics of transferring from a wheelchair.


----------



## pennyk

I saw 98 today in KIS (and ORL) and it appeared to be deadheading a Viewliner II sleeper. The KIS station agent confirmed that the last car on the train was, in fact, a "new" sleeper.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Wonder if they'll turn it into a Coach so they can cut staff???( Sarcasm OFF)


----------



## KnightRail

pennyk said:


> I saw 98 today in KIS (and ORL) and it appeared to be deadheading a Viewliner II sleeper. The KIS station agent confirmed that the last car on the train was, in fact, a "new" sleeper.



98(15) had a deadhead Viewliner I sleeper Upfront, the Amfleets, the revenue Viewliner II diner, three revenue Viewliner I sleepers, a Viewliner II dorm for employee testing, the Viewliner II bag, and a deadhead viewliner II diner on the rear.


----------



## pennyk

WOW. Thanks. I could tell there were many additional cars, but apparently was unable to correctly identify all of them.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> Ok Penny. Who’d you pay off to have that car? Lol!!!


I have been on that car a couple of times. It does show up on the Silvers quite often (not surprisingly).


----------



## me_little_me

Question on new sleepers. Does anyone know if the room outlets will increase in number and convenience of location? I couldn't believe in the VL H room, one has to run a wire across the walking/wheelchair space to get power for CPAP/other by a bed. Will the new cars involve better outlet layout?


----------



## Palmetto

I thought I read somewhere that there were going to be 4 outlets per room, but where they'll be, I do not know.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Here comes another sleeper...not that we've seen the other one enter service. If nothing dramatic occurs, the usual plan executes on Mon. Fleets one, two, and three will photograph 97 on the 30th. Fleet 4 will photograph 97 that passes through on the 31st.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Alas, I’ll be New Orleans on the 6th.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> Alas, I’ll be New Orleans on the 6th.



Well, I guess it is fortunate I never seem to know what week it is. This is for this coming Monday, so that means you should look on the 30th.  I'll fix the posts.

Five games and two practices in a week will do that to you, but it is almost time for the playoffs....finally.


----------



## pennyk

AmtrakBlue said:


> Alas, I’ll be New Orleans on the 6th.


I will not be on the route of 97 either the 30th or the 31st.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Well, I guess it is fortunate I never seem to know what week it is. This is for this coming Monday, so that means you should look on the 30th.  I'll fix the posts.
> 
> Five games and two practices in a week will do that to you, but it is almost time for the playoffs....finally.



I thought you had the dates wrong. [emoji57]

And I will be in St Louis on the 30th.


----------



## Ryan

I'll be in San Diego. Can you slide it a week to the right for us?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> I'll be in San Diego. Can you slide it a week to the right for us?


So, it's all up to the Fleet who hasn't responded.


----------



## John Bobinyec

I got a report that sleeper 62503 Rappahannock River is deadheading on 97(30). Is this for testing, training, or is it going into service soon?

jb


----------



## Acela150

John Bobinyec said:


> I got a report that sleeper 62503 Rappahannock River is deadheading on 97(30). Is this for testing, training, or is it going into service soon?
> 
> jb


TR7 reported about a week ago that the last bag dorm and a sleeper were being released from CAF and being sent to Hialeah for acceptance.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> So, it's all up to the Fleet who hasn't responded.



Fleet 3 may not say much, but he certainly gets the job done!  



mgl1978 said:


> 2 New viewliners headed south on #97 tonight at long bridge park. 1 bag/dorm. 1 sleeper




Thank you!!



Acela150 said:


> TR7 reported about a week ago that the last bag dorm and a sleeper were being released from CAF and being sent to Hialeah for acceptance.



There are still two more bag dorms to go. This was just the highest number.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> There are still two more bag dorms to go. This was just the highest number.



Ooops! Thanks for the correction!


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thirdrail7 said:


> There are still two more bag dorms to go. This was just the highest number.




Any idea where these 10 cars will find themselves in service?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Any idea where these 10 cars will find themselves in service?



They've been used in regular service on Silvers for the past few months. However, I don't know if that is the long term goal. They were considering using them as day rooms and adding them to corridor trains but I don't think that is allowed anymore.


----------



## Palmetto

Thirdrail7 said:


> They've been used in regular service on Silvers for the past few months. However, I don't know if that is the long term goal. They were considering using them as day rooms and adding them to corridor trains but I don't think that is allowed anymore.



If it were, the Boston to Virginia trains would be good candidates. Has anyone thought of an overnight Boston-Harrisburg-Pittburg trip?


----------



## City of Miami

Amtrak tweeted tonight that they have 2 Viewliner II sleeper cars and the rest will be put in service in 2020. They're advertising them & refurbished Amfleet IIs & Horizons. There's a link to an article of last month.:
https//chicago.suntimes.com/2019/10/16/20918107/amtrak-rolls-out-comfortable-cars-trips-chicago


----------



## Thirdrail7

City of Miami said:


> Amtrak tweeted tonight that they have 2 Viewliner II sleeper cars and the rest will be put in service in 2020.



Riiight on schedule!


----------



## chrsjrcj

This isn't directly related to the Viewliner II's, but I wonder when the new bed/linen/towels will roll out?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Riiight on schedule!


Are they saying what " kind of service?".
( see the New Diners and Bag Cars being used as axle count cars!)


----------



## John Santos

City of Miami said:


> Amtrak tweeted tonight that they have 2 Viewliner II sleeper cars and the rest will be put in service in 2020. They're advertising them & refurbished Amfleet IIs & Horizons. There's a link to an article of last month.:
> https//chicago.suntimes.com/2019/10/16/20918107/amtrak-rolls-out-comfortable-cars-trips-chicago



Bad URL. There should be a colon after the https at the beginning... "https://chicago.suntimes.com/..." The existing link takes you to a home improvement web site!?!


----------



## Thirdrail7

Two sleepers are being retrieved tomorrow. They will be on the usual suspects on Wednesday.


----------



## DSS&A

Thirdrail7 said:


> Two sleepers are being retrieved tomorrow. They will be on the usual suspects on Wednesday.



Thanks for the information!! Heading south to warm climates for the Holidays sounds great!!!!!


----------



## neroden

If Amtrak management does the right thing for once (ha ha, I know), they'll have additional sleepers on the Florida trains by February and on the NY-Chicago trains by April. Not expecting it.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Will be need a deployment plan soon enough. The change of bathroom set up will be interesting to see how they address it.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> They've been used in regular service on Silvers for the past few months. However, I don't know if that is the long term goal. They were considering using them as day rooms and adding them to corridor trains but I don't think that is allowed anymore.


I had it on the Silver Stars that I traveled on while on my impromptu weekend trip to Raleigh and Salisbury a few weeks back. The train crew appeared to like them a lot, and they appeared to be quite adequate for the baggage that was checked on those trains that day.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> They've been used in regular service on Silvers for the past few months. However, I don't know if that is the long term goal. They were considering using them as day rooms and adding them to corridor trains but I don't think that is allowed anymore.


You certainly can't add the bag-dorms in revenue use to a train which doesn't have at least *one* accessible room. I suspect you could get permission to add them for partial revenue service if they were attached to trains which already had mulitple Viewliner sleepers (with accessible room), but definitely not to a train with no accessible rooms.


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Will be need a deployment plan soon enough. The change of bathroom set up will be interesting to see how they address it.


They randomly intermix Superliner Is and Superliner IIs, so I wouldn't be surprised if they just use both Viewliner Is and Viewliner IIs interchangeably on the same train. 

It would perhaps make the most sense if they deployed them all on one route to start with. And that route should be the Lake Shore Limited, since surveys showed that the in-room bathrooms were least liked on that route, and more liked on the Star and Meteor (I have no idea why), and also the Viewliner IIs are supposed to be more cold-resistant than the Viewliner Is.

I expect this to not happen because Messrs. Anderson and Gardner seem to have a multi-year agenda to screw over Lake Shore Limited customers, probably in order to suppress ridership and revenue. Very, very odd -- even their proposed "corridors" include the LSL corridor, but they're treating the route extremely badly.


----------



## Agent

Video from yesterday by Jayy Glizzy of two Viewliner sleeping cars on the end of the _Silver Meteor_ as it leaves Newark Penn Station.


----------



## printman2000

So, without reading through this entire thread, are there actually any Viewliner II Full Sleepers in service yet?


----------



## pennyk

printman2000 said:


> So, without reading through this entire thread, are there actually any Viewliner II Full Sleepers in service yet?


NO


----------



## me_little_me

And not until they can fully replace the old cars for every copy of that train plus spares as there is a major change to the roomettes.


----------



## Suze10860

I know there are a couple of threads here already talking about the new Viewliner II equipment, but I just don't understand them. Or at least I can't figure out how to ascertain the information I'm looking for. That's my bad...

Any idea of when the new Viewliner II sleeper cars will be in-service on the Lake Shore Limited? I've read that they will be rolled-out during 2020 and that they will augment the existing Viewliner cars.

Any specific information and/or dates available out there? Thanks.

(We're on the LSL in early April...I'm just curious.)


----------



## pennyk

Suze10860 said:


> I know there are a couple of threads here already talking about the new Viewliner II equipment, but I just don't understand them. Or at least I can't figure out how to ascertain the information I'm looking for. That's my bad...
> 
> Any idea of when the new Viewliner II sleeper cars will be in-service on the Lake Shore Limited? I've read that they will be rolled-out during 2020 and that they will augment the existing Viewliner cars.
> 
> Any specific information and/or dates available out there? Thanks.
> 
> (We're on the LSL in early April...I'm just curious.)


Unlikely that the new Viewliner II sleepers will be on the LSL in early April.


----------



## StanJazz

Today I received a new email with a new e-ticket for a Lakeshore Limited trip in August. There are NO changes. Same times, same price. same car and the same room number. Could the change be that the car was changed to a Viewliner II?


----------



## OBS

StanJazz said:


> Today I received a new email with a new e-ticket for a Lakeshore Limited trip in August. There are NO changes. Same times, same price. same car and the same room number. Could the change be that the car was changed to a Viewliner II?


There is no way they could/would plan something like that this far in advance....


----------



## jis

StanJazz said:


> Today I received a new email with a new e-ticket for a Lakeshore Limited trip in August. There are NO changes. Same times, same price. same car and the same room number. Could the change be that the car was changed to a Viewliner II?



I received new tickets for BC NYP - SDY for early March too. I suspect they have made some changes in the reservation system. Unlikely to have anything to do with Viewliners.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Rivanna and Rocky heading this way on the usual pattern next week.


----------



## Ryan

I'll actually be home (not that I'll have anywhere to be), and the sun should actually still be up. I'm game. 97(25) is my target of interest?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ryan said:


> I'm game. 97(25) is my target of interest?


----------



## pennyk

Ryan said:


> I'll actually be home (not that I'll have anywhere to be), and the sun should actually still be up. I'm game. 97(25) is my target of interest?


Since I am losing track of what day it is, if someone will remind me (Ryan or Betty), I will try to get a look at it on the 26th.


----------



## gaspeamtrak

Thirdrail7 said:


> Rivanna and Rocky heading this way on the usual pattern next week.


Yippee !!! Yahoo !!!
Thank you...


----------



## cocojacoby

If I had to travel now, I would love to have the choice to ride in a brand new squeaky clean private room in a train vs. any other mode. Get then up and running ASAP.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I "caught" the new sleepers yesterday at NRK (Newark, DE). They went by in a blur, of course.


----------



## pennyk

I "caught" the new sleepers today at a SunRail station a couple of miles north of ORL. They went by in a blur, also, but not as fast as through NRK, according to Betty. I was took a video showing 2 coaches and 2 new sleepers deadheading but am unable to post. I have texted the video to at least one computer genius. Maybe he is able to post.


----------



## railiner

New Viewliner sleeper's? I wish I'd have known that...I passed thru Hialeah this morning on Tri-Rail...didn't look very hard, just glanced at the Amtrak equipment...


----------



## pennyk

railiner said:


> New Viewliner sleeper's? I wish I'd have known that...I passed thru Hialeah this morning on Tri-Rail...didn't look very hard, just glanced at the Amtrak equipment...


I assume the new sleepers are on their way to Hialeah now.


----------



## gaspeamtrak

pennyk said:


> I assume the new sleepers are on their way to Hialeah now.


----------



## dlagrua

When the Viewliner II sleepers are finally available I would hope that Amtrak would prioritize the Cardinal route as that is a long 28 hour trip from NY-CHI.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> When the Viewliner II sleepers are finally available I would hope that Amtrak would prioritize the Cardinal route as that is a long 28 hour trip from NY-CHI.


The Silver Star is 31 hours and the Crescent is 30 hours, so those should get priority if that's the criteria. Plus they run 7 days a week.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Silver Star is 31 hours and the Crescent is 30 hours, so those should get priority if that's the criteria. Plus they run 7 days a week.


There is also relatively little end-to-end traffic on the Cardinal. The average trip distance for sleeper passengers is actually the shortest on the Cardinal of the 5 Viewliner sleeper trains, with the SM having the longest average travel distance. The SS and Crescent are nearly tied with one another for 2nd longest average travel distance.


----------



## jiml

Our last Cardinal trip (during peak season) we booked on the single scheduled sleeper, taking a roomette since no bedrooms were available. By the time we travelled they had found an additional sleeper and we got a bedroom. Another sleeper dead-headed to Beech Grove on that same train. They seem to be able to find them when needed - just not enough to make it part of the schedule.


----------



## Dakota 400

jiml said:


> Our last Cardinal trip (during peak season) we booked on the single scheduled sleeper, taking a roomette since no bedrooms were available. By the time we travelled they had found an additional sleeper and we got a bedroom. Another sleeper dead-headed to Beech Grove on that same train. They seem to be able to find them when needed - just not enough to make it part of the schedule.



When did you learn that you had been provided with a bedroom? Did your cost increase?


----------



## jiml

Dakota 400 said:


> When did you learn that you had been provided with a bedroom? Did your cost increase?


We booked about 6 months out for August travel Chicago to Manassas, VA, 3 years ago. Not seeing any sleeper space online at all, I called a live agent and was told that all bedrooms were sold out, but there were 2 roomettes available - not together. He suggested that I book one and waitlist, since there was a possibility of cancellations or an additional sleeper being added for peak season - but no guarantees. On April 24 I received a call (again a real person) that an additional sleeper had been added and that some customers had relocated to it, freeing up a bedroom in the car where we were already booked. The difference was $307 (roomette $264, bedroom $571). I didn't have access to tools like Amsnag back then, but the up-charge seemed fair at the time.

I mentioned this particular trip previously here in a discussion about waitlisting and was told Amtrak doesn't waitlist. I still have the emailed receipt:

Change Summary - Ticket Number xxxxxxxxxxxx

Original Amount Paid
$435.00
Revised Trip DetailsTrain 50: CHICAGO (CHICAGO UNION STATION), IL - MANASSAS, VADepart 5:45 PM, Saturday, August xx
2 ADULT - AAA RAIL FARES
$171.00
1 BEDROOM
$571.00
Ticket Terms & Conditions3-DAY ADV RES & AAA MEMBR I.D. RQRD ONBRD
Subtotal
$742.00
Revised Fare
$742.00
Total
$307.00


----------



## dlagrua

Acording to what I read on OTL. This is the status of the Viewliner Sleepers

So where re they now??? Delivered 

62500SleeperPortage RiverJun-14001B12rtn to CAF62502SleeperRapidan RiverJan-19003B15Accepted Mar-1962503SleeperRappahannock RiverOct-19Accepted Nov-1962504SleeperRaritan RiverNov-19Accepted Dec-1962505SleeperReedy RiverNov-19Accepted Dec-1962506SleeperRivanna RiverMar-20Accepted Apr-2062508SleeperRocky RiverMar-20Accepted Apr-20


----------



## cocojacoby

dlagrua said:


> Acording to what I read on OTL. This is the status of the Viewliner Sleepers
> 
> So where re they now??? Delivered
> 
> 62500SleeperPortage RiverJun-14001B12rtn to CAF62502SleeperRapidan RiverJan-19003B15Accepted Mar-1962503SleeperRappahannock RiverOct-19Accepted Nov-1962504SleeperRaritan RiverNov-19Accepted Dec-1962505SleeperReedy RiverNov-19Accepted Dec-1962506SleeperRivanna RiverMar-20Accepted Apr-2062508SleeperRocky RiverMar-20Accepted Apr-20


What's with all the "R"s? Couldn't they find some other rivers?


----------



## PVD

They start at A and work their way down past R all the way to W but since they renamed the original 50 with river names they got to R for this cluster. At first I thought they hired an alliteration consultant for an exorbitant fee, but alas, just coincidence...There are even more "S"


----------



## railiner

Kind of nice that they are naming them, and not just numbering them...goes back to old Pullman tradition. For "spotter's", it makes it easier to recall if you have seen or ridden in a particular car.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> What's with all the "R"s? Couldn't they find some other rivers?


The names of eastern rivers starting with A to P (most of them) are assigned to the Viewliner I Sleepers. The V2s start with Portage River and then carry on in alphabetic order. You can find the names of all Viewliners as assigned today at:






On Track On Line - Viewliner Names


Trains Community - On Track On Line provides information about Rail Travel and all facets of the hobbies of railroading and trains.



on-track-on-line.com


----------



## Thirdrail7

Two more in the usual pattern on the usual trains next week. The 509 and the 510.

Then, they can join the others that aren't doing anything in Florida.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I should probably go to bed.


----------



## me_little_me

Thirdrail7 said:


> View attachment 17977
> 
> 
> I should probably go to bed.


You mean the car was deadheaded or that management is? 

Oh wait! Must be the car. You'd never find management riding Amtrak LD trains! They wouldn't eat garbage.


----------



## Mailliw

pennyk said:


> Unlikely that the new Viewliner II sleepers will be on the LSL in early April.


What about December? I'm thinking about taking a trip to Chicago then.


----------



## Acela150

Mailliw said:


> What about December? I'm thinking about taking a trip to Chicago then.



Again, doubtful due to the current ridership drop due to Covid.


----------



## Steve4031

So the cars sit. Perfect time to introduce them into the fleet and swap out viewliner 1 cars for overhaul and reconfigurations.


----------



## PVD

I don't know. Not having to use a shared restroom might actually be a plus, in the near term.


----------



## Mailliw

I don't have a commode in my bedroom at home and I'm not going to sleep in a bathroom.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Mailliw said:


> I don't have a commode in my bedroom at home and I'm not going to sleep in a bathroom.



Don't the neighbors laugh, when they see you staggering down the street, heading to the gas station, late at night?


----------



## PVD

The presence or absence of an in room toilet has been a subject for debate for quite a long time. I've ridden roomettes in both Superliners and viewliners, and it really never mattered to me, since all of my VL trips were solo, I never encountered one of the often mentioned drawbacks. During the present situation, some people who don't really feel comfortable in a public confined space might like the in room option.


----------



## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> So the cars sit. Perfect time to introduce them into the fleet and swap out viewliner 1 cars for overhaul and reconfigurations.


Sine there is a difference that may get some likes and some dislikes (and, Lord knows, Amtrak doesn't need any more angry customers who vind the type of roomette different and changing, the only way to do it is to commit to it permanently. It doesn't have to be on every line but, say, just on the Crescent or the Silvers or one of the other VL trains. But it needs to be every run of those trains. That shouldn't be a problem as just pulling all the old sleepers off one or two trains would provide plenty of spare cars to refurb as, when they are done, they can go back into service (as old cars if just refurbed as is or new cars if converted to end-of-hall restroom types).


----------



## Steve4031

Oops, I forgot about the COVID situation and why people might prefer their own facilities. I was looking forward to riding the new sleepers. No disrespect intended.


----------



## PVD

I think we all are, I just wanted to point out that the timing might not be ideal for the switch.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

me_little_me said:


> That shouldn't be a problem as just pulling all the old sleepers off one or two trains would provide plenty of spare cars to refurb as, when they are done, they can go back into service (as old cars if just refurbed as is or new cars if converted to end-of-hall restroom types).



Having VL I sleepers on some trains (routes) and VL II sleepers on the others might cause problems unless they simply never sell the "extra" roomette on the VL I sleepers.


----------



## me_little_me

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Having VL I sleepers on some trains (routes) and VL II sleepers on the others might cause problems unless they simply never sell the "extra" roomette on the VL I sleepers.


Why? In fact I would see more problems with confusion as to where the toilet is (in the room or down the hall) which means agents, app and web site need to make sure that it is noted when one selects a roomette) than the issue of the extra room. After all, when one makes a roomette reservation, one is not told how many total rooms are in the car. Remember, one train (say the Crescent) would ALWAYS run with the VL II but another (say the Cardinal) would ALWAYS run with the VL I until it was converted entirely to VL II. It's not like some Crescents or Cardinals would run VL I and others VL II.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Saint Marys and Saluda more will emerge next week and follow the usual transportation pattern. This will bring the total number to 11, meaning we are almost halfway through the delivery process. 


Yet, we have yet to see one in revenue service. Well, at least they are probably nice and shiny.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

It’s not like there a plan for there deployment anyways. Pre-pandemic or post pandemic.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Oops, I forgot about the COVID situation and why people might prefer their own facilities. I was looking forward to riding the new sleepers. No disrespect intended.


A more immediate COVID issue is that there is no money to do the upgrades to the VL-Is. Indeed there isn't even enough money available at present to maintain all service as is in FY 21, until Congress wakes up and does something about it.

Of course I suppose if they wished they could deploy the VL-II Sleepers on a select train or two.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Saint Marys and Saluda more will emerge next week and follow the usual transportation pattern. This will bring the total number to 11, meaning we are almost halfway through the delivery process.
> 
> 
> Yet, we have yet to see one in revenue service. Well, at least they are probably nice and shiny.



I can't remember anymore. Does that mean Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon on 97 down to MIA? 

On a side note, will the car named "SALUDA" have a 4% slant to the beds? LOL!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> I can't remember anymore. Does that mean Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon on 97 down to MIA?
> 
> On a side note, will the car named "SALUDA" have a 4% slant to the beds? LOL!


You’re as bad as me on remembering which day. I’m 99% sure they’ll be on 97(12) - Wednesday


----------



## neroden

Amtrak has a credit rating right now (I know, fairly new for Amtrak's history); they could actually borrow money on the open market instead of doing asinine things which will cost more money. I've stated my advice long ago: daily service, more sleepers everywhere, fewer coaches -- appeal to the Covid-19 demand.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> I can't remember anymore. Does that mean Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon on 97 down to MIA?
> 
> On a side note, will the car named "SALUDA" have a 4% slant to the beds? LOL!



The move to HIA should occur this WED.


----------



## mgl1978

I caught 97 heading south out of WAS tonight 8/19/2020. It had 3 viewliner II sleepers. It looked like 2 new ones behind the baggage car and 1 in revenue service in front of the baggage car.


----------



## Palmetto

That link will not open.


----------



## railiner

Palmetto said:


> That link will not open.


Worked for me...


----------



## dlagrua

We just got back from a trip to Whitefish, MT via Chicago ( Cardinal) and will say that Viewliner II sleepers are badly needed. While the bedroom was in fairly decent shape, the staff great, the ride from CHI through Indiana and parts of Ohio was brutally rough. The track may have been the culprit but the car didn't handle those bumps very well. New Viewliners with a fresh suspension system may make the ride more pleasant


----------



## pennyk

I just saw 97 pass through Orlando at a Sunrail station. I took a video but am unable to post it. However I think I have screen shots of last 2 cars which are Viewliner 2 sleepers. The 12 sleeper car is Rapidan River. The first deadhead sleeper is Saluda River and second one is Saint Marys River.


----------



## Seaboard92

The Phase IIIb car ahead of the baggage car is probably New River. It wears Phase III and has since the Sunset Limited study train in Florida some years ago now.


----------



## pennyk

Seaboard92 said:


> The Phase IIIb car ahead of the baggage car is probably New River. It wears Phase III and has since the Sunset Limited study train in Florida some years ago now.


Attached is a screen shot of what appears to be the 9712 car. I have no idea if it is in service, but its name is Rapidan River.


----------



## Dakota 400

dlagrua said:


> the ride from CHI through Indiana and parts of Ohio was brutally rough. The track may have been the culprit



There are sections of the track that have been rough for many years.


----------



## Seaboard92

pennyk said:


> Attached is a screen shot of what appears to be the 9712 car. I have no idea if it is in service, but its name is Rapidan River.View attachment 18542



If it's the 9712 it should be in service, and that's a Viewliner II. No way of telling could be a glorified crew dorm right now the way load factors are.


----------



## Acela150

Seaboard92 said:


> The Phase IIIb car ahead of the baggage car is probably New River.



One way that you can tell the difference between the I's and II's is pretty simple. Look at the rear windows on Engineers side of the train. The I's have upper and lower windows, and the II's just have upper windows.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> One way that you can tell the difference between the I's and II's is pretty simple. Look at the rear windows on Engineers side of the train. The I's have upper and lower windows, and the II's just have upper windows.


Well that, and the paint scheme.


----------



## Dakota 400

Acela150 said:


> the II's just have upper windows.



What's below the upper windows?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Dakota 400 said:


> What's below the upper windows?


The toilets. That's where the bathrooms are.


----------



## Dakota 400

AmtrakBlue said:


> The toilets. That's where the bathrooms are.



Thank you.


----------



## cocojacoby

A little strange how the profiles of the I and II don't seem to be the same. I know they are but that would maybe be how the Viewliners and the Siemen's might look when coupled together. We have discussed their profile compatibility on other threads.


----------



## mgl1978

Seaboard92 said:


> The Phase IIIb car ahead of the baggage car is probably New River. It wears Phase III and has since the Sunset Limited study train in Florida some years ago now.


It's was Rapidan River car #62502. It's a viewliner II sleeper. You can tell the difference, the viewliner I has a conduit all the way down the roof. The Viewliner II does not have this. If you look at the video I posted last Wednesday you can see this.


----------



## mgl1978

I've seen all the viewliner II types in service. The Silver Meteor with the diner, sleeper and baggage. The crescent with the diner and dorm.


----------



## joelkfla

So, has anyone ridden a Viewliner II sleeper yet? It would be nice to get impressions; even nicer to see some actual photos or videos of the accommodations in the wild.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> So, has anyone ridden a Viewliner II sleeper yet? It would be nice to get impressions; even nicer to see some actual photos or videos of the accommodations in the wild.


Only the bag-dorms are being used. I was tempted ask one of my SCAs on the Cardinals I took recently if I could get a peek at a room.


----------



## Mailliw

I thought they were already in use on the Silver Service.


----------



## pennyk

I often see the Silver Star 92 on my evening walks. Some time in the last week or so, I believe I saw a Viewliner II deadheading.


----------



## Seaboard92

AmtrakBlue said:


> Only the bag-dorms are being used. I was tempted ask one of my SCAs on the Cardinals I took recently if I could get a peek at a room.



I used the bag/dorm for a restroom on my last trip because it was closer to walk to than the nearest public one. The rooms look much nicer much more airy. But I think that could be from the color choice red reflects light and looks brighter than blue which absorbs more light. The lack of the toilet is nice as well. I think there are photos on my last trip report from Beech Grove.


----------



## PVD

The mock ups of the roomette modules that were on the RailPlan wbsite (mfr of modules) did not look appreciably different than the existing, but your observation about the color palette and the more modern lighting probably make them look much nicer.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Two more are heading down to FL on 97(14)


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Seaboard92 said:


> The lack of the toilet is nice as well.



The lack of a toilet will eventually make your eyes go crossed.


----------



## DCAKen

Yes, I agree the decor makes them look cheerier. Our SCA on the Cardinal let us take a quick peek at the new roomette on the bag/dorm.


----------



## Willbridge

neroden said:


> Depends on whether there's funding for the supposed full renovation of the Viewliner Is (to remove the in-room bathrooms and have a separate bathroom). If there is funding for thta, I'd get the Viewliner Is out for that renovation ASAP. But I'm going to assume that there is no funding for this.
> 
> Also depends on time of year. We are at the trough of Eastern sleeper car demand in late January / early February. As spring arrives, I would lengthen the consists of trains in the following order:
> 
> #3: Sleeper on #66/#67, which should get a name back (the Night Owl or Twilight Shoreliner)... and should also go to Norfolk rather than NPN, IMHO. Also the southbound should run two hours earlier and the northbound should run two hours later. No dining car needed for this route. Yeah, Amtrak is nowhere near competent or clever enough to do this.


In a serious enterprise the name _Night Owl _would be brought back and the V-2's would be part of the publicity re-launching the service. The reasoning is that company officials would be likely to ride this train, get a look at the new equipment, get some employee reactions informally, look for defects, while only requiring a couple of cars (and a spare!), and serving big media markets.


----------



## jis

Viewliner II Sleepers finally in commercial use on Silvers









Viewliner Sleepers Debut On Silvers | Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC







railpassengers.org


----------



## Steve4031

How many of these cars have been delivered? It will be nice if they put one on the Cardinal and some of the LSL.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> How many of these cars have been delivered? It will be nice if they put one on the Cardinal and some of the LSL.


If the November 1 update from Amtrak by Numbers on OTOL is used as reference then 10 had been accepted by then and two more were expected to be accepted by Amtrak on Nov 20, making a total of 12.

This would just be adequate for one train requiring 4 consists with 2 cars each plus a few in reserve, and not quite enough yet for doing another train. Due to difference in the number of saleable accommodation between the Is and IIs, I suspect they will change an entire train over to using IIs and not mix Is and IIs in the same train, at least initially.


----------



## Steve4031

Thank you Jishnu. You consistently provide, clear, concise answers based on operational conditions that I forget about sometimes. I knew they had more than just a few cars, but had forgotten about the number of consists required to operate both silver trains.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Thank you Jishnu. You consistently provide, clear, concise answers based on operational conditions that I forget about sometimes. I knew they had more than just a few cars, but had forgotten about the number of consists required to operate both silver trains.


Well at present, since in effect only one Silver train is running daily, only 4 consists are required, and typically they are running with 2 rather than 3 Sleepers, so that chalks up 8. If they were running with 3 we would not have enough VIIs with reserves.

In normal time the Meteor runs with 3, requiring a total of 12, and the start with 2 requiring a total of 8, so together they require 20 Sleepers. With the usual Amtrak contingency and out of service for maintenance allowances, the 25 car contingent would be just a bit more than what would be required by the Silver Service, so it is possible that when full service is restored, the VIIs will be dedicated to the Silver Service for the time being.


----------



## Steve4031

I like the cars. I saw pictures of them. Once this COVID thing is over I will be out east to ride them.


----------



## Siegmund

For the number of airline executives who have passed through Amtrak's ranks lately, it seems none of them care much about fleet utilization. 4 consists for a 27-hour trip is 54 hours on the road and 42 hours sitting idle in every cycle. And extras held back for protection on top of that.

It would require some careful choreography to manage 6 consists for the Star and Meteor together. But 7 for them, or 10 for Star, Meteor, and Crescent pooled, would be very doable - for a company that was interested in getting the most use out of its equipment that it could.

And to think that, once upon a time in a previous lifetime, _Chicago _to Miami was done with 3 consists. 30 hours on the road, 3 hours to turn in Miami, overnight for servicing in Chicago.


----------



## Exvalley

Siegmund said:


> *And to think that, once upon a time in a previous lifetime, Chicago to Miami was done* with 3 consists.


You could have stopped with the highlighted part!


----------



## me_little_me

So, when will Amtrak have enough of the new bedding to roll out [pun intended]? Or are they waiting until they have enough spares in Beech Grove for those too?


----------



## lordsigma

Amtrak’s most recent 5 year plan indicated the original plan to modify the VL1s to match the VL2s has been scrapped and instead the VL1s and Superliners will see an interior refresh a la the Amfleets with new cushions, carpeting and surface refresh and the VL1s and 2s will essentially just be assigned to seperate trains. With that in mind I wouldn’t be surprised to see the VL2s essentially go to the Silvers while the VL1s serve the rest


----------



## jis

Siegmund said:


> For the number of airline executives who have passed through Amtrak's ranks lately, it seems none of them care much about fleet utilization. 4 consists for a 27-hour trip is 54 hours on the road and 42 hours sitting idle in every cycle. And extras held back for protection on top of that.


Just taggin an executive with Airline is not going to fix fundamental structural problems that are way beyond their controil. A lot of this has to do with unreliability of schedules. Many better utilization schemes in theory proved to be too unreliable in the face of schedule unreliability. If that can be improved then fleet utilization improvements can follow. And that as we know has been an ongoing political fisticuff for years.

The private railroads in their heyday managed better fleet utilization by having more reliable and faster schedules and oodles of service staff at the end points of the run who could service a trin within a few hours, Even Amtrak at one point managed the Star and Meteor with 7 consists, and could possibly pull it off with a schedule change for the Meteor, but the additional issue that PRR did not face in NYP back then was the commuter crush on the PRR side of Penn Station which carries way more commuter traffic today than it did in its heyday.

Today a three hour turn or even a six hour turn simply does not work for LD trains due to a combination of schedule unreliability and reduced servicing staff. If more than half the time a train arrives more than 2 hours late, and there is no night shift for servicing staff (e.g. at Sunnyside) then the rest pretty much follows. @Thridrail7 had at one point explained how things came to be the way they are. If interested one can probably find some of that discussion in the archives of this board.

Is this a desirable state of affairs? Of course not. But it is worth understanding what the root causes of the problems are, if we wish to come up practical achievable solutions.


----------



## Bob Dylan

lordsigma said:


> Amtrak’s most recent 5 year plan indicated the original plan to modify the VL1s to match the VL2s has been scrapped and instead the VL1s and Superliners will see an interior refresh a la the Amfleets with new cushions, carpeting and surface refresh and the VL1s and 2s will essentially just be assigned to seperate trains. With that in mind I wouldn’t be surprised to see the VL2s essentially go to the Silvers while the VL1s serve the rest


I like this since I'm one of those who liked the Bathroom in the Roomettes.

And it would cause those who don't care for Shared Bathrooms to have to upgrade to the Expensive Bedrooms.( you there Penny???)


----------



## lordsigma

Right now with 3x weekly you could conceivably send these everywhere but as soon as daily service comes back if the idea is to allow for more sleeper capacity during peak basically just dedicating these to the silvers isn’t a terrible idea. If when they bring back daily service they shift 97’s schedule to allow the meteor to go down to 3 consists then you could have 4 sleepers on the meteor, 3 on the Star, and you’d have 4 leftover for protects/spares. That would give you then a chance to perform the refresh on the Viewliner 1s and then deploy them to increase capacity on other trains and possibly even add them to 66/67 of they ever wanted to.


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> I like this since I'm one of those who liked the Bathroom in the Roomettes.
> 
> And it would cause those who don't care for Shared Bathrooms to have to upgrade to the Expensive Bedrooms.( you there Penny???)


Yes, Jim, I likely will upgrade to the bedroom because I do not like sharing a restroom.


----------



## RebelRider

For those booking, it looks like the VL-IIs are being placed in the xx12 car position. 

Two more sleepers, 62500 and 62507, are being delivered to HIA today on 97(09).


----------



## Palmland

Is there a diagram of the V-II sleepers? While I like the in room toilet if traveling solo, with my wife the rest room down the hall is fine. I would hope they would be at opposite ends of the hall to make it a shorter walk for late night visits.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmland said:


> Is there a diagram of the V-II sleepers? While I like the in room toilet if traveling solo, with my wife the rest room down the hall is fine. I would hope they would be at opposite ends of the hall to make it a shorter walk for late night visits.


They’re side-by-side next to the shower room, I think.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Bob Dylan said:


> I like this since I'm one of those who liked the Bathroom in the Roomettes.



Me too.

And even more so now with Covid-19. I would not want to share a toilet that could be coated in viruses.


----------



## PVD

One roomette module is replaced with a module containing 2 toilet rooms. They can be narrow because ADA accommodation is provided by the H room. Other that that, besides some of the features being modernized, the layout is basically the same


----------



## tricia

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Me too.
> 
> And even more so now with Covid-19. I would not want to share a toilet that could be coated in viruses.



Carry a spray bottle of alcohol and spray every place you might touch as you enter. As you leave, wash your hands, and then use hand sanitizer when you return to your roomette. Not very difficult.


----------



## IndyLions

Palmland said:


> While I like the in room toilet if traveling solo, with my wife the rest room down the hall is fine...



The problem is there is no toilet “down the hall”. You have to walk thru the lounge, and then to the first coach to find a restroom.

Here’s a compromise for you. On the VLI’s, as part of the refresh - replace one of the roomette modules with a public restroom module. Now you have a choice – use the toilet in your room, or walk down the hall.

I know you lose a bedroom for revenue service that way, but the recent addition of the bag dorms on a lot of the same routes eliminated the need for the attendant room.


----------



## ruck

IndyLions said:


> The problem is there is no toilet “down the hall”. You have to walk thru the lounge, and then to the first coach to find a restroom.
> 
> Here’s a compromise for you. On the VLI’s, as part of the refresh - replace one of the roomette modules with a public restroom module. Now you have a choice – use the toilet in your room, or walk down the hall.
> 
> I know you lose a bedroom for revenue service that way, but the recent addition of the bag dorms on a lot of the same routes eliminated the need for the attendant room.



Did something change? I was under the impression there were restrooms in the car (likely near the shower as @AmtrakBlue stated). 

Random search turns up this:









A Preview Look at Amtrak’s New Viewliner Sleeping Cars | TRAINS & TRAVEL WITH JIM LOOMIS


With ridership numbers that have increased in 19 of the last 20 years, Amtrak has a pressing need for new equipment. Many of the bi-level Superliner cars still being used on long-distance trains date…




www.trainsandtravel.com





but that was eesh 7 years ago.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

ruck said:


> Did something change? I was under the impression there were restrooms in the car (likely near the shower as @AmtrakBlue stated).
> 
> Random search turns up this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Preview Look at Amtrak’s New Viewliner Sleeping Cars | TRAINS & TRAVEL WITH JIM LOOMIS
> 
> 
> With ridership numbers that have increased in 19 of the last 20 years, Amtrak has a pressing need for new equipment. Many of the bi-level Superliner cars still being used on long-distance trains date…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trainsandtravel.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but that was eesh 7 years ago.


I think he's referring to the VLIs, not the VLIIs


----------



## PVD

I think you are right about that, the inference being that in the VL1 if you are sharing a room with someone where the in room toilet is an issue, you must leave the car to find one...not the case in the VL2


----------



## railiner

The Viewliner I’s, may have been the first long distance cars (except diner’s), to not have at least one ‘public’ restroom....I can’t recall any others...


----------



## jis

One of the huge cost items for upgrading VLIs is that the only way to do it is to remove most of the modules at the roomette end in order to insert the dual toilet module near the end of the car.

A cheaper alternative may be to keep all the modules in place and just remove the plumbing and seal the commodes shut. Just remove one module adjacent to the side opening for module replacement and replace it with a new toilet module, and fix up the plumbing for it. The pro of this is that the process of changing the accommodations to match in number is relatively small. The con is that the toilet module will be near the middle of the car rather than near the end.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Sorry let’s do this right and place the toilet near the end of the car. Plan C: cut out one sleeper module and hand build two restroom in that location. Module are nice for a big project, but it not the only option.


----------



## PVD

Why is the module being towards the middle an issue? What's right about the end? Hand building in place would likely be expensive and time consuming compared to prebuilt modules, especially from a QC standpoint. 50 units is not a small project.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Sorry let’s do this right and place the toilet near the end of the car. Plan C: cut out one sleeper module and hand build two restroom in that location. Module are nice for a big project, but it not the only option.


Good luck with that. Wake me up when you have it done  IMHO another case of perfection defeating practical achievability. We are discussing doing nothing vs. doing something, Ideally we should scrap the entire Viewliner fleet and acquire new 21st century technology Sleepers.  But of course that is impractical too.


----------



## IndyLions

railiner said:


> The Viewliner I’s, may have been the first long distance cars (except diner’s), to not have at least one ‘public’ restroom....I can’t recall any others...


If I had more confidence in Amtrak - I’d say “surely they’ve thought of adding a public restroom to the VLI’s already”, but....


----------



## IndyLions

jis said:


> One of the huge cost items for upgrading VLIs is that the only way to do it is to remove most of the modules at the roomette end in order to insert the dual toilet module near the end of the car.
> 
> A cheaper alternative may be to keep all the modules in place and just remove the plumbing and seal the commodes shut. Just remove one module adjacent to the side opening for module replacement and replace it with a new toilet module, and fix up the plumbing for it. The pro of this is that the process of changing the accommodations to match in number is relatively small. The con is that the toilet module will be near the middle of the car rather than near the end.



With the VLI design, would sealing up the commodes be a pre-requisite for adding a VLII restroom module regardless of location?


----------



## jis

IndyLions said:


> With the VLI design, would sealing up the commodes be a pre-requisite for adding a VLII restroom module regardless of location?


It is not necessarily a technical pre-requisite, but the in roomette commodes are a huge maintenance item that everyone wants to get rid of as a cost reduction measure, if not anything else. And you can;t do that without putting a common set of toilets in the car.


----------



## JustOnce

jis said:


> One of the huge cost items for upgrading VLIs is that the only way to do it is to remove most of the modules at the roomette end in order to insert the dual toilet module near the end of the car.
> 
> A cheaper alternative may be to keep all the modules in place and just remove the plumbing and seal the commodes shut. Just remove one module adjacent to the side opening for module replacement and replace it with a new toilet module, and fix up the plumbing for it. The pro of this is that the process of changing the accommodations to match in number is relatively small. The con is that the toilet module will be near the middle of the car rather than near the end.


Depends what the complete plans are. They may plan to remove all of the modules and replace them with new ones as part of the overhaul. I know they want to remove the roomette toilets but can that be done by overhauling the existing modules either inside or outside the car?


----------



## jis

JustOnce said:


> Depends what the complete plans are. They may plan to remove all of the modules and replace them with new ones as part of the overhaul. I know they want to remove the roomette toilets but can that be done by overhauling the existing modules either inside or outside the car?


We know that this was the original plan and we also know that it is no longer the plan. Only cosmetic fixup is the plan for now, i.e. new upholstery and carpets and replacement of light and other electrical fixtures. Not much else.

They don't really need to remove the commodes. They can just be sealed in place. They would want to remove the plumbing under the car though if they wish to go there. But that is not the current plan.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> We know that this was the original plan and we also know that it is no longer the plan. Only cosmetic fixup is the plan for now, i.e. new upholstery and carpets and replacement of light and other electrical fixtures. Not much else.
> 
> They don't really need to remove the commodes. They can just be sealed in place. They would want to remove the plumbing under the car though if they wish to go there. But that is not the current plan.


Bad idea. Little enough room as it is. Just cut out the commodes and replace the floor plate so the extra room can be used for baggage or whatever (A refrigerator? Nah! Just fantasizing.)


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Bad idea. Little enough room as it is. Just cut out the commodes and replace the floor plate so the extra room can be used for baggage or whatever (A refrigerator? Nah! Just fantasizing.)


All that they planned to do was make the modified I Roomettes look like II Roomettes. Since IIs don't have refrigerators or whatever, and since a step is needed at that position to provide access to the upper berth, I suspect there will either be a platform of the type found in II or a sealed commode.

Remember, no one is designing a new Roomette at this time. Theya re trying to spend as little money as theyc an to just do a upholstery and carpet replacement for now, which does not even envisage taking the commodes out and installation of common toilets.

We are just idly speculating what minor changes could be made for minimal expense to make the Is similar to IIs.


----------



## Palmetto

Another electrical outlet would be a plus.


----------



## PVD

Considering that so many things plug in, and most of them are pretty low wattage, the added receptacle would probably not be a load issue, but because of the way the cars/modules are put together, it might be a P.I.T.A. to install. The optimum would be coming from the load side of the existing GFCI since that would protect the added receptacle even if it was a conventional type.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jis said:


> It is not necessarily a technical pre-requisite, but the in roomette commodes are a huge maintenance item that everyone wants to get rid of as a cost reduction measure, if not anything else. And you can;t do that without putting a common set of toilets in the car.



Amtrak could save even more maintenance costs by removing the commodes from the bedrooms too. Ditto for all the Superliners too.


----------



## Willbridge

PVD said:


> Considering that so many things plug in, and most of them are pretty low wattage, the added receptacle would probably not be a load issue, but because of the way the cars/modules are put together, it might be a P.I.T.A. to install. The optimum would be coming from the load side of the existing GFCI since that would protect the added receptacle even if it was a conventional type.


MOST of them are pretty low wattage, but when the DB's 1980's vintage cars were hit with the first wave of chargers they found that the train line for hotel services was drawing as much power as the locomotive was for traction.


----------



## Willbridge

jis said:


> All that they planned to do was make the modified I Roomettes look like II Roomettes. Since IIs don't have refrigerators or whatever, and since a step is needed at that position to provide access to the upper berth, I suspect there will either be a platform of the type found in II or a sealed commode.
> 
> Remember, no one is designing a new Roomette at this time. Theya re trying to spend as little money as theyc an to just do a upholstery and carpet replacement for now, which does not even envisage taking the commodes out and installation of common toilets.
> 
> We are just idly speculating what minor changes could be made for minimal expense to make the Is similar to IIs.


I recently ran across a VIA Rail roster from 1979 that shows that their 217 sleepers were in 11 different configurations, including sleeper lounges. That was too many types but Amtrak ought to be able to live with the VL1 with cosmetic updates for now. They still should have enough of both VL types for consistent equipment assignments for all but emergencies.


----------



## west point

Here we have 12 pages of replies and everyone has forgotten one major point about the V-1 sleepers. They must be rotated thru to MIA ( HIA ) for more than just routine maintenance. I suggest that when regulars service is restored that Amtrak will probably dispatch the Silver regularly with either 1 or 2 V-2s and one or 2 V-1s. I suspect Arrow can be modified to handle that change. Eventually when all V-2s are in service then one V-2 on all single level LD and 2 V-1s as well. The surplus maybe to a night owl service and spares at SSY, MIA, BOS, and maybe WASH ?

Of course that may change in the long run depending on what the Biden administration is able to get thru congress ?


----------



## jis

Actually running the Silvers with a V2 and the rest V1 in designated fixed position in the consist might be easier. That way you have to manage an exception from time to time due to bad ordered cars, but most times you don;t have to make any change in Arrow other than coding in the two types of Sleeper in fixed position in the consist, which is what they are presumably doing already. What we are given to understand is that the V2s are running in the xx12 position. Other position(s) are V1.

I think a more interesting question is if they are going to do the small change in the trucks and wheel profile needed to up the max speed of V1s to 125mph. That can be done as they rotate through their major mechanical maintenance cycle without any other disruption.


----------



## Trogdor

Even if they scheduled the Silvers as all V-IIs, if they had to send a V-I in its place (either for maintenance rotation or a last-minute sub) it wouldn't really affect anything as far as passengers/ticketing is concerned. Everyone can still take their same room assignments without much fuss. You'd just have an extra room that would be unsold.

It's really no worse than when Amtrak sells rooms in a transition sleeper and then has to run a regular sleeper in its place (in this case, the car attendant has to tell the passenger to take a different room, but beyond that, there's no fuss at all and those cars have a greater difference in configuration).


----------



## Mailliw

If I book a roomette in a VII that's what I expect; I'm not going to travel in accommodation with an unenclosed toilet. The only other accommodations in this country that have them are jail cells.


----------



## Trogdor

Mailliw said:


> If I book a roomette in a VII that's what I expect; I'm not going to travel in accommodation with an unenclosed toilet. The only other accommodations in this country that have them are jail cells.



Will Amtrak even specify upon booking which type it is?


----------



## Lonestar648

I would hope that I would be able to reserve my room knowing which car type I would be paying for. Pre-Covid I avoided taking my grandchildren with me on the VL sleepers. My daughters said NO before I asked when I described the VLI sleepers. I have found that teen girls demand certain privacy, which at night is difficult if Grandpa is sound asleep. Traveling in Roomettes on the Superliners has worked well, even then we took sanitary precautions.


----------



## Steve4031

Those in the know simply need to ask for a room in the 12 car. The only reason you don’t get it if the car is full.


----------



## me_little_me

If they have mixed VL1s and VL2s on a train, then those in the VL1s can use the external toilets in the VL2s unlike now where one has to go to a coach car at night to avoid bothering someone who is sleeping in the room or for privacy reasons.


----------



## roadman3313

Steve4031 said:


> Those in the know simply need to ask for a room in the 12 car. The only reason you don’t get it if the car is full.



Not sure how far out the bookings are going as of now as I have a trip scheduled on 92 at the end of February and they only show a 9210 and 9211 car on those trips as of now (currently assigned to the 9210 car). I'd be curious to hear if anyone has seen or experienced these cars during their current run on the Silvers.


----------



## RebelRider

roadman3313 said:


> Not sure how far out the bookings are going as of now as I have a trip scheduled on 92 at the end of February and they only show a 9210 and 9211 car on those trips as of now (currently assigned to the 9210 car). I'd be curious to hear if anyone has seen or experienced these cars during their current run on the Silvers.



I would tentatively say you should book the xx11 car to get the VLII experience. The Florida service was cut to two sleepers with the big long haul reductions in October. The third sleeper just recently came back for the holidays. I bet it will come off again the first week of January, hence no 12 car in February.


----------



## cocojacoby

Wasn't the whole idea of the modular design that it would be easy to reconfigure the cars by simply removing the old modules and inserting new ones?


----------



## railiner

cocojacoby said:


> Wasn't the whole idea of the modular design that it would be easy to reconfigure the cars by simply removing the old modules and inserting new ones?


I believe it was... but doing in practice, what was planned in theory, may have turned out to not be as easy as planned...


----------



## railiner

I think the main advantage of modular construction is “mass production”, at a fast rate, with consistent quality control...cruise ships are built this way, too, as are factory built homes as compared to site built.
Modifications however, are done on site.


----------



## jis

railiner said:


> I believe it was... but doing in practice, what was planned in theory, may have turned out to not be as easy as planned...


I don't believe any Viewliner has been reconfigured making use of its easy reconfiguration capabilities. The only reconfigurations have been those where the modules were removed and a handcrafted interior was built for special purpose cars.


railiner said:


> I think the main advantage of modular construction is “mass production”, at a fast rate, with consistent quality control...cruise ships are built this way, too, as are factory built homes as compared to site built.
> Modifications however, are done on site.


Considering that the Viewliners turned out to be the slowest rate "mass produce" cars in the world in both incarnations, it is not clear that this goal was achieved either. The ridiculously small orders may be to blame for that though.


----------



## roadman3313

RebelRider said:


> I would tentatively say you should book the xx11 car to get the VLII experience. The Florida service was cut to two sleepers with the big long haul reductions in October. The third sleeper just recently came back for the holidays. I bet it will come off again the first week of January, hence no 12 car in February.



Sounds like a reasonable idea. The first time I called they said they only saw a 10 car, however checking online it still shows 3 Bedrooms available (after I booked one) so I assume there is still an 11 car as well. I'll keep an eye on it as it gets closer. Figure it's 50/50 if there is one. If not, good reason to make another trip East again in the future!


----------



## pennyk

I was out walking this morning and was fortunate to see the SIlver Star 91 at a crossing. The 12 sleeper was a Viewliner 2, the other sleepers were Viewliner 1's.


----------



## roadman3313

pennyk said:


> I was out walking this morning and was fortunate to see the SIlver Star 91 at a crossing. The 12 sleeper was a Viewliner 2, the other sleepers were Viewliner 1's.



Thanks for the report. Great to hear they are out and running! Hopefully more will roll out in the coming months.


----------



## WinNix

Speaking of silver star 91, someone was on it and created a video tour of the interior. 

edit: corrected broken link


----------



## Bostonjetset

WinNix said:


> Speaking of silver star 91, someone was on it and created a video tour of the interior.
> 
> edit: corrected broken link



Thanks for sharing! I’ll be on the Silver Meteor Monday and Silver Star the following Saturday so hoping I get one of the new cars at least in one direction. They look really nice.


----------



## joelkfla

WinNix said:


> Speaking of silver star 91, someone was on it and created a video tour of the interior.
> 
> edit: corrected broken link



Turn crank for ice. Clever!

I saw just one duplex outlet. Looks like it would be convenient to place a power strip on the lower step and do all your charging there, but rather inconvenient for anything that one wants to keep plugged in near the window (like a standalone GPS unit).


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Bostonjetset said:


> Thanks for sharing! I’ll be on the Silver Meteor Monday and Silver Star the following Saturday so hoping I get one of the new cars at least in one direction. They look really nice.


I believe the car number for the VLIIs is 12, so you should already know if you're booked in a VLI or a VLII


----------



## Mailliw

I can't wait to travel in a VII. Hopefully the Lakeshore Limited is up next.


----------



## tricia

joelkfla said:


> Turn crank for ice. Clever!
> ....



Ice on demand without needing to beg it from a SCA or dining car worker! Hooray! If only they'll make available hot-enough-for-tea water in the sleeping cars, I might never want to get off the train.


----------



## Bostonjetset

AmtrakBlue said:


> I believe the car number for the VLIIs is 12, so you should already know if you're booked in a VLI or a VLII


I’m in car 11 both times but others on here stated that car 11 may be the last car in January after the holiday trips. So who knows lol.


----------



## PaTrainFan

He whipped around pretty quickly, not focusing to get much of a detailed look so I had to start and stop, but I did not notice any USB charging ports. That is a big miss in today's world.


----------



## railiner

I don't care for the way the windows are covered by those curtains...I had difficulty to cover the windows entirely, on the Superliner. A pretty chintzy design, IMHO. They should have some kind of opaque shade like the heritage cars had...


----------



## roadman3313

WinNix said:


> Speaking of silver star 91, someone was on it and created a video tour of the interior.
> 
> edit: corrected broken link




Thanks for sharing. Nice to see them in action! I had to change my February booking for a work trip to Tampa but am now booked on the Meteor southbound in the 11 car (instead of northbound on the Star in the 10 car). Still no 12 car on the roster. Hopefully I'll luck out with a VII but won't complain if not (haven't been on an overnight train trip in over a year so nice enough to ride a train in general). Also taking the Auto Train back up north to see if the new bedding on board.


----------



## Mailliw

railiner said:


> I don't care for the way the windows are covered by those curtains...I had difficulty to cover the windows entirely, on the Superliner. A pretty chintzy design, IMHO. They should have some kind of opaque shade like the heritage cars had...


Agreed, blackout shades would better. Also why do the roomettes have interior windows when the bedrooms do not?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mailliw said:


> Agreed, blackout shades would better. Also why do the roomettes have interior windows when the bedrooms do not?


Isn’t the bathroom in the bedrooms next to the door where the window would be?


----------



## John Santos

AmtrakBlue said:


> Isn’t the bathroom in the bedrooms next to the door where the window would be?


But the roomettes have two windows, one next to the sink/toilet and one in the door itself. The bedrooms could have a window in the door, but don't.

Pure speculation, but maybe the designers decided (after surveying passengers?) that having to close a curtain over the door for privacy in a bedroom would be much more effort because you couldn't reach the curtain while in or on the bed, but in roomettes, it's a much shorter reach.

The wall opposite the bedrooms has lots of windows, but you would have to open the door to see out them. To see out the other side of the train from a roomette, you wouldn't need to open the door, but you would need to open the curtain, and the occupant of the opposite roomette would also need to open their curtain, and their window curtain, and you would be looking *through* their roomette to see out of the train. Maybe there is some rational reason buried in these facts for roomettes to have multiple windows facing the passage, but for bedrooms to have none, but I'm not seeing it.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

John Santos said:


> But the roomettes have two windows, one next to the sink/toilet and one in the door itself. The bedrooms could have a window in the door, but don't.
> 
> Pure speculation, but maybe the designers decided (after surveying passengers?) that having to close a curtain over the door for privacy in a bedroom would be much more effort because you couldn't reach the curtain while in or on the bed, but in roomettes, it's a much shorter reach.
> 
> The wall opposite the bedrooms has lots of windows, but you would have to open the door to see out them. To see out the other side of the train from a roomette, you wouldn't need to open the door, but you would need to open the curtain, and the occupant of the opposite roomette would also need to open their curtain, and their window curtain, and you would be looking *through* their roomette to see out of the train. Maybe there is some rational reason buried in these facts for roomettes to have multiple windows facing the passage, but for bedrooms to have none, but I'm not seeing it.


I see a window on the door of the bedroom in that video.


----------



## John Santos

AmtrakBlue said:


> I see a window on the door of the bedroom in that video.


You're right. I missed that. I don't see a window on the H room door, but that faces the vestibule, not the side passageway.


----------



## pennyk

I was out walking and saw Silver Meteor 97 pass through Orlando. There were 3 sleepers and the 12 sleeper was a Viewliner 2.


----------



## pennyk

John Santos said:


> You're right. I missed that. I don't see a window on the H room door, but that faces the vestibule, not the side passageway.


On the Viewliner 1, there is no window on the H room door. However, there is a small window that faces the side passageway.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

pennyk said:


> On the Viewliner 1, there is no window on the H room door. However, there is a small window that faces the side passageway.


Same with the VLII


----------



## jpakala

From this video I see the Viewliner 2's H room also has that window. We had an H room from NYC to Chicago. It was superb: lots of floor space, big bathroom, and views out both sides, thanks to that window and an outside aisle window across the aisle from it.


----------



## Bostonjetset

I’ll be on the Silver Meteor tomorrow so I called Amtrak today and they put me in car 12 which is supposed to be the new one. I was originally assigned car 11 but really wanted to try to new product. Will report back.


----------



## joelkfla

Bostonjetset said:


> I’ll be on the Silver Meteor tomorrow so I called Amtrak today and they put me in car 12 which is supposed to be the new one. I was originally assigned car 11 but really wanted to try to new product. Will report back.


Take lots of pics. Even a nice & slow video room tour, if you can. Thx.


----------



## pennyk

Again, I saw the Silver Meteor train 97 today (1/8/21) in Orlando. Again, the 12 sleeper was a Viewliner II


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> Again, I saw the Silver Meteor train 97 today (1/8/21) in Orlando. Again, the 12 sleeper was a Viewliner II


Can you request a VII Room in the 12 Sleeper or is it "pot luck" when you book?


----------



## Seaboard92

Bob Dylan said:


> Can you request a VII Room in the 12 Sleeper or is it "pot luck" when you book?



I'll let you know a little bit later. I'm going to attempt it for my next trip on No. 98


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> Can you request a VII Room in the 12 Sleeper or is it "pot luck" when you book?


When I make reservations (or used to make reservations), I request certain rooms and cars, and usually get them if I get a good phone agent. I have mixed emotions about the change since I am one of those who likes an in-room restroom - but would also like a "new" room. Since I have saved a bunch of money this year by not traveling, my guess is the next time I travel overnight (maybe 30 days after my second vaccination), I will try to get a bedroom in a V II.


----------



## Bostonjetset

Bob Dylan said:


> Can you request a VII Room in the 12 Sleeper or is it "pot luck" when you book?


I requested it by calling and was given it on the Meteor this past Monday.


----------



## Bostonjetset




----------



## Bostonjetset




----------



## Bob Dylan

Bostonjetset said:


> View attachment 20205
> View attachment 20206
> View attachment 20207
> View attachment 20208
> View attachment 20209


Nice and shiney, clean and no duct tape or wedges needed!

How are the New Restrooms???


----------



## Mailliw

Thanks Bostonjetset! I hope Lake Shore Limited is next in line.


----------



## Lonestar648

Wow, looks nice. Need to get a trip from DC to Orlando in one of those cars.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Looks nice but what the heck is that glowing red light and can it be turned off?


----------



## daybeers

Devil's Advocate said:


> Looks nice but what the heck is that glowing red light and can it be turned off?


I imagine that's the light that illuminates when the sink is down, similar to a VLI.


----------



## Bostonjetset

Mailliw said:


> Thanks Bostonjetset! I hope Lake Shore Limited is next in line.


Me too. I’m taking in in May haha.


----------



## Bostonjetset

Bob Dylan said:


> Nice and shiney, clean and no duct tape or wedges needed!
> 
> How are the New Restrooms???


Clean and sufficient. Haha.


----------



## Bostonjetset

Devil's Advocate said:


> Looks nice but what the heck is that glowing red light and can it be turned off?


I took the picture when the sink wasn’t fully closed. The light does go off once then sink is latched.


----------



## pennyk

While walking today, I saw Silver Meteor 98 in Orlando. There were 2 V-I sleepers deadheading up front, 3 sleepers in the rear, one of which (the 12 car) was a V-II, after the baggage car, was a PV - Chapel Hill.


----------



## cocojacoby

So did they actually remove that damn bar that used to block access to the overhead luggage cubby? Suggested that years ago but was always told it was a safety issue.

Also that new sink design looks rather shallow. I really do hope they fixed the water pressure. Always was too high and splashed everywhere.


----------



## pennyk

...and I saw today's Silver Meteor 98 in Orlando. There were 3 engines in the consist, and like yesterday's train, the 12 sleeper was a V-II.


----------



## Dakota 400

cocojacoby said:


> Also that new sink design looks rather shallow. I really do hope they fixed the water pressure. Always was too high and splashed everywhere.



The sink itself looked larger to me, but the water splashing issue has been an irritation. The water controls appear different; maybe that will help one to be better able to control the flow of water.


----------



## Bostonjetset

Dakota 400 said:


> The sink itself looked larger to me, but the water splashing issue has been an irritation. The water controls appear different; maybe that will help one to be better able to control the flow of water.


The water pressure is indeed better...more akin to a normal faucet at home rather than the power-washer jets of years past.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bostonjetset said:


> View attachment 20205
> View attachment 20206
> View attachment 20207
> View attachment 20208
> View attachment 20209


Oooh... nice pics! I'm ready to go... wherever this train is going!


----------



## Bostonjetset

20th Century Rider said:


> Oooh... nice pics! I'm ready to go... wherever this train is going!


Thanks! It was on the Silver Meteor end to end.


----------



## joelkfla

Stumbled onto this video trip report of VL2 roomette; room tour is @2:41:


----------



## PVD

Happy to see the added receptacles.....


----------



## joelkfla

PVD said:


> Happy to see the added receptacles.....


Yeah, but wish they were on the window side of the cabin. Looks like you'll still need a long corded power strip if you want to power your gear while it's on the table or stuck to the window.

I believe the T-shaped slot means they are 20-amp capable.


----------



## PVD

A T shaped slot does indeed indicate a 20 A receptacle, but it is still likely that multiple receptacles are on the same circuit. Common practice would be multiple receptacles on a single circuit. If 4 20 A duplex receptacles are wired on one circuit, it does not imply 160 amps (8x20) it's still sitting on a 20A breaker. I'd be curious as to how the circuits are distributed, since the roomettes are pre built modules, I would venture a guess that they have harnesses that mate with the power distribution for the car above the ceiling in the hall.


----------



## PaTrainFan

It's also a miss that they don't have USB connections.


----------



## PVD

I'm not sure on that, I have mixed feelings. Since so many devices now have various size connectors, most people would have to carry an appropriate cable, and traveling somewhere in a sleeper implies a trip long enough to be carrying an appropriate charger/cable anyway. Or perhaps, a wireless charger adapter plate. Probably more valuable on a short haul or commuter run type car.


----------



## Trogdor

PaTrainFan said:


> It's also a miss that they don't have USB connections.



Given that (older) USB is in the process of being phased out in favor of USB-C, they'd likely wind up with connectors that nobody can use 3-5 years from now, and then they'd stay like that for 20+ years until some kind of retrofit.


----------



## cocojacoby

So is that an emergency escape hatch on the end sliding door? Would that be necessary if the car overturns and you can crawl out? I guess that's why they went with a single door instead of the old Viewliner I double doors. Why not just make the window removable?

Also need to note that they have removed that stupid bar across the upper storage cubby and greatly improved the sink faucet function which always splashed all over the place.


----------



## Mailliw

joelkfla said:


> Stumbled onto this video trip report of VL2 roomette; room tour is @2:41:



The new roomettes sure look really cool, and now that they removed the toilet I look forward to traveling in one. I hope LSL is next in line after Silver Service. Also while I haven't tried the flex meals myself saying something is better than Amtrak Cafe is setting the bar really low.


----------



## Exvalley

Trogdor said:


> Given that (older) USB is in the process of being phased out in favor of USB-C, they'd likely wind up with connectors that nobody can use 3-5 years from now, and then they'd stay like that for 20+ years until some kind of retrofit.


Surely there will be a USB to USB-C converter. And surely it can't be hard to replace a USB port with a USB-C port. It's not as if there is a data connection. It's just for power.


----------



## PVD

Plenty of cables convert sizes. My old car had a USB port for plugging in thumb drives and power, my phone is USB-C There is also micro, and mini out there, and now wireless. Why bother. If you are carrying a cable or adapter anyway who needs another maintenance point.


----------



## Exvalley

PVD said:


> Why bother. If you are carrying a cable or adapter anyway who needs another maintenance point.


It's not needed, but it's convenient and, more importantly, it is the standard in the travel industry. Amtrak should at least keep pace with industry standards - especially with brand new equipment.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Exvalley said:


> It's not needed, but it's convenient and, more importantly, it is the standard in the travel industry. Amtrak should at least keep pace with industry standards - especially with brand new equipment.



Of course, given the extreme delays in this project these cars were designed, when, 10 years ago? But even the switches in the rooms smack of 1980s "technology."


----------



## me_little_me

PaTrainFan said:


> Of course, given the extreme delays in this project these cars were designed, when, 10 years ago? But even the switches in the rooms smack of 1980s "technology."


And the lack of key cards in lieu of only lockable rooms when inside them. And the lack of a small monitor to display messages and other information anywhere in the car, much less in the room.


----------



## jis

I would really like to get an NFC key loaded into my Smartphone like the hotels do these days.


----------



## west point

Last time I looked at the National electrical code a 20 amp circuit could have 13 duplex outlets . 15 amp was 9 outlets. However if that even applies to RR cars have no idea. ii


----------



## me_little_me

west point said:


> Last time I looked at the National electrical code a 20 amp circuit could have 13 duplex outlets . 15 amp was 9 outlets. However if that even applies to RR cars have no idea. ii


Two people running hair dryers simultaneously could trip a 20A C.B. Theoretically, one circuit per room would be needed. Doesn't necessarily mean 200A per car since not everyone will be using the hair dryers simultaneously but does mean a lot of breakers per car.


----------



## PVD

The number of receptacles (220.14) doesn't change what's available on the circuit. Best practice is a lower number, in residential wiring you see lots of low wattage plug loads, in a commercial application like an office, you would look at expected utilization much more carefully in the design phase. I have no idea what the panel (s) look like on these cars, you would look to balance across the phases as much as possible. There are some "heavy loads" that are factored in, HVAC the largest, and any separate circuits for icemaker, coffee maker, door ops, and toilet flush system. Door and toilet are obviously intermittent, but need to be there when you need them. Lighting draw is probably reduced quite a bit from previous designs, with LED lumens per watt being very high.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Two more Sleeper are set to leave the plant tomorrow. Potomac River was one, the other name tag was blocked.


----------



## DSS&A

Thanks for the information!


----------



## BLNT

Any word how many years it might be before there's a number of them on the Auto Train.... 5-10 ??


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Not in any time frame you would like. The AutoTrain is a closed system, It has it’s own maintenance facility. While Amtrak has never published a plan for deployment, the Auto Train is unique and very long train with capacity issues.


----------



## BLNT

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Not in any time frame you would like. The AutoTrain is a closed system, It has it’s own maintenance facility. While Amtrak has never published a plan for deployment, the Auto Train is unique and very long train with capacity issues.



Thanks


----------



## west point

Heavy overhaul of Auto Train equipment is handled by Beech Grove.


----------



## Mailliw

BLNT said:


> Any word how many years it might be before there's a number of them on the Auto Train.... 5-10 ??


The Auto-Train uses Superliners, not Viewliners.


----------



## BLNT

Mailliw said:


> The Auto-Train uses Superliners, not Viewliners.



Gotcha.

The only train we've ever traveled (perhaps 10 trips) is the Auto Train - thus, in my mind, a bedroom is a bedroom.


----------



## jis

BLNT said:


> Any word how many years it might be before there's a number of them on the Auto Train.... 5-10 ??


How about "never"?  Auto Train does not use single level equipment which a Viewliner is.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

BLNT said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> The only train we've ever traveled (perhaps 10 trips) is the Auto Train - thus, in my mind, a bedroom is a bedroom.



A bedroom is a bedroom. However on viewliners you have more space for your luggage as there is space above the bathroom. You do not get to use the luggage rack that is on the Superliners first floor, nor can you stuff you car with your baggage on a train currently equipped with a Viewliner.

That said since your a Auto Train user, you now need a excuse to travel with out your family on the Auto Train, and hop a Sliver Train. Sorry I not going to give you a excuse, because women talk to each other.


----------



## pennyk

I am on a Silver right now in a Viewliner-II bedroom. It is extremely nice. I have not slept in it yet, but used the restroom and locked the door with no issues. I also lucked into the best SCA in Amtrak (in my opinion and that of many others).


----------



## Steve4031

Tell Leo hello!


----------



## Seaboard92

pennyk said:


> I am on a Silver right now in a Viewliner-II bedroom. It is extremely nice. I have not slept in it yet, but used the restroom and locked the door with no issues. I also lucked into the best SCA in Amtrak (in my opinion and that of many others).



Leo is back? I need his schedule so I can plan my trips around him.


----------



## pennyk

Steve4031 said:


> Tell Leo hello!


Ha! You are about the 6th person to ask to me say hello to Leo! He certainly is great! I have tried to describe all the people who have sent their best to Leo. Of course, he can't remember them all. He remembers Dick and asked about him immediately. I have traveled with Dick on the Meteor more times than I can count.


----------



## pennyk

Seaboard92 said:


> Leo is back? I need his schedule so I can plan my trips around him.


Mondays on 98 and Wednesdays on 97. He will be retiring at the end of this year. When I made my reservations, I did not know he was back and chose my dates based on price. I got super lucky. There are 2 SCAs for 3 cars. Leo is doing 10 and 1/2 of 11 and Patrick is doing 1/2 of 11 and 12.


----------



## jiml

pennyk said:


> Mondays on 98 and Wednesdays on 97. He will be retiring at the end of this year. When I made my reservations, I did not know he was back and chose my dates based on price. I got super lucky. There are 2 SCAs for 3 cars. Leo is doing 10 and 1/2 of 11 and Patrick is doing 1/2 of 11 and 12.


So are there two VII's on your train?


----------



## Steve4031

I wouldn’t expect Leo to remember me. I haven’t been on the silvers that much.


----------



## pennyk

jiml said:


> So are there two VII's on your train?


yes!


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> I am on a Silver right now in a Viewliner-II bedroom. It is extremely nice. I have not slept in it yet, but used the restroom and locked the door with no issues. I also lucked into the best SCA in Amtrak (in my opinion and that of many others).


Now that I have spent more time in the room, I see issues. The call button does not work. The door curtain does not close all the way. There is a water running sound between rooms A and B (that can be heard from both rooms). There is no place to store the ladder.


----------



## Cal

pennyk said:


> Now that I have spent more time in the room, I see issues. The call button does not work. The door curtain does not close all the way. There is a water running sound between rooms A and B (that can be heard from both rooms). There is no place to store the ladder.


Can't you place the ladder on the top bunk?


----------



## pennyk

Cal said:


> Can't you place the ladder on the top bunk?


The SCA told me there is no place to store the ladder. It is stored behind the chair. He has also received lots of complaints about lack of in room restrooms. A lot of the Silver passengers are elderly and have to use the restroom several times a night and many do not like leaving their rooms to do so. (Thus, the reason I am in a bedroom)


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> Now that I have spent more time in the room, I see issues. The call button does not work. The door curtain does not close all the way. There is a water running sound between rooms A and B (that can be heard from both rooms). There is no place to store the ladder.


...and on a positive note, the mattress appears to be thicker. Hopefully that will allow me to sleep through the noise.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

pennyk said:


> ...and on a positive note, the mattress appears to be thicker. Hopefully that will allow me to sleep through the noise.


Does it have the new blanket, too?


----------



## pennyk

AmtrakBlue said:


> Does it have the new blanket, too?


old blanket


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> Now that I have spent more time in the room, I see issues. The call button does not work. The door curtain does not close all the way. There is a water running sound between rooms A and B (that can be heard from both rooms). There is no place to store the ladder.


I just spoke to a supervisor from MIA, who I know and who is on the train. The "water running" sound is actually the vacuum system for the entire car which likely is located under the bedrooms. The sound bedrooms A and B (and possibly H) are hearing is the flushing at the other end of the car. I can say that there is whole lot of flushing going on right now at the other end of the car. It is quite annoying, in my opinion. My portable white noise machine helped me sleep overnight. 
I asked about the ladder. The supervisor knows that it is stored in the upper bunk on Superliners but historically there was a cubby for it on Viewliners. He said the situation is being discussed and there was concern about putting it in the upper bunk for safety reasons (because it had not previously been there). He thinks eventually it will be stored in the upper bunk.


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> ...and on a positive note, the mattress appears to be thicker. Hopefully that will allow me to sleep through the noise.


more positives: the mattress was very comfortable. I like the location of the outlets.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The high use bathrooms are at the rear of the railcar, but the vacuum flush is located under the three rooms with the least amount of useage.

Disadvantage goes to high fare passengers.


----------



## pennyk

Steve4031 said:


> I wouldn’t expect Leo to remember me. I haven’t been on the silvers that much.


I told him you said Hi. He is flattered that so many of you send your hellos and best wishes.


----------



## cocojacoby

pennyk said:


> The SCA told me there is no place to store the ladder. It is stored behind the chair. He has also received lots of complaints about lack of in room restrooms. A lot of the Silver passengers are elderly and have to use the restroom several times a night and many do not like leaving their rooms to do so. (Thus, the reason I am in a bedroom)



I wonder if Amtrak should consider an "up-charge" roomette keeping the toilets for those who want them on trains with more than one sleeper?


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> I wonder if Amtrak should consider an "up-charge" roomette keeping the toilets for those who want them on trains with more than one sleeper?


So that then there can be a cacophony of complaints here about having to pay $100 more just for a stinking toilet?


----------



## rrdude

cocojacoby said:


> I wonder if Amtrak should consider an "up-charge" roomette keeping the toilets for those who want them on trains with more than one sleeper?



Would I get a DISCOUNT then, if I *don't want a toilet,* and I get a roomette that has one?


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> I just spoke to a supervisor from MIA, who I know and who is on the train. The "water running" sound is actually the vacuum system for the entire car which likely is located under the bedrooms. The sound bedrooms A and B (and possibly H) are hearing is the flushing at the other end of the car. I can say that there is whole lot of flushing going on right now at the other end of the car. It is quite annoying, in my opinion. My portable white noise machine helped me sleep overnight.
> I asked about the ladder. The supervisor knows that it is stored in the upper bunk on Superliners but historically there was a cubby for it on Viewliners. He said the situation is being discussed and there was concern about putting it in the upper bunk for safety reasons (because it had not previously been there). He thinks eventually it will be stored in the upper bunk.


Those are real design flaws re the Toliet and Ladder.

Is it bad enough to make you book a Roomette on a VLI so you have a Private Toliet?


----------



## Cal

cocojacoby said:


> I wonder if Amtrak should consider an "up-charge" roomette keeping the toilets for those who want them on trains with more than one sleeper?


With the insane prices currently, you want them to be raised?


----------



## Mailliw

cocojacoby said:


> I wonder if Amtrak should consider an "up-charge" roomette keeping the toilets for those who want them on trains with more than one sleeper?


You can already get a private toilet for an upcharge; they're called Bedrooms.


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> You can already get a private toilet for an upcharge; they're called Bedrooms.


Including an en suite shower no less!


----------



## cocojacoby

Mailliw said:


> You can already get a private toilet for an upcharge; they're called Bedrooms.


Well it's $1436 for a bedroom next week from NYP to MIA and $557 for a roomette. Maybe you think it's worth $879 for a private toilet but I bet many single travelers would think differently.


----------



## pennyk

I just boarded 97 in a bedroom. The ladder is in the same location (behind the chair). It’s too soon to know if I’ll hear everyone’s toilet flushing for 20 hours.
the call button is working (and so is the heat - and it’s hot) 
There is a mirror on the sliding door in this room. The wasn’t one on the door in my last room.


----------



## jis

pennyk said:


> I just boarded 97 in a bedroom. The ladder is in the same location (behind the chair). It’s too soon to know if I’ll hear everyone’s toilet flushing for 20 hours.
> the call button is working (and so is the heat - and it’s hot)
> There is a mirror on the sliding door in this room. The wasn’t one on the door in my last room. View attachment 22283


Everyone? I thought there were only 5 toilets in the entire car, no?


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> Everyone? I thought there were only 5 toilets in the entire car, no?


I figure everyone will eventually use one of those 5 toilets. Yes


----------



## jis

pennyk said:


> I figure everyone will eventually use one of those 5 toilets. Yes


But at least there are not 15 toilets flushing away


----------



## me_little_me

pennyk said:


> old blanket


What do you expect? You know Amtrak management lied about the new blankets coming - TWO (or was that THREE) years ago.

We should start a thread (or better yet a forum) on Amtrak management promises and failure to live up to them and the downgrades on LD trains. So, can they be trusted to want them to continue?

Remember the promise about allowing both points and cash on a reservation?

Remember the promise about new bedding and amenities?

Remember the claim about how millennials just couldn't wait for those delicious flex meals?

Remember the new diners that are not used as diners?

Remember the new sleepers that took forever to be put in service after they were delivered?

Remember the disappearance of baggage handling at all those stations in spite of having all those new baggage cars?

NOT ONE OF THOSE ABOVE had anything to do with Covid.

Remember the promised dates for return of Traditional dining on western trains? Did they really make a decision before finding out if the dates were even reasonable?

Remember the cutbacks on LD train schedules but no additional cars added in spite of sleepers being sold out while the excess cars sat idle?


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> But at least there are not 15 toilets flushing away


But the 2 at the end of the car seem to be going nonstop.


----------



## jis

pennyk said:


> But the 2 at the end of the car seem to be going nonstop.


Lot of crap flowing from the car....


----------



## Steve4031

jis said:


> So that then there can be a cacophony of complaints here about having to pay $100 more just for a stinking toilet?



It’s called the turd tax.


----------



## MARC Rider

rrdude said:


> Would I get a DISCOUNT then, if I *don't want a toilet,* and I get a roomette that has one?


He,he, if I were running Amtrak, I would ask everyone reserving a roomette if they want a toilet in it. If they say "yes," then I put them in a V2 and tell them there is no toilet, but for a "small additional charge" I can out them in a V1 that does have one. If they say "no", I put them in a V1, and then tell them that for a "small additional charge" they can be put into a V2.


----------



## joelkfla

pennyk said:


> But the 2 at the end of the car seem to be going nonstop.


Maybe they'll have to start taking reservations for the toilets, as they do for the diners.


----------



## Willbridge

joelkfla said:


> Maybe they'll have to start taking reservations for the toilets, as they do for the diners.


Flex toilets?


----------



## pennyk

I am currently in a bedroom in the Silver Meteor 12 car. The air conditioning was out when I boarded. In WAS, Mechanical boarded and "fixed" the issue. It cooled off during the night but failed again by morning. The H room, bedrooms and rooms 1 and 2 are hot. The rest of the car is cool (more like cold). 

The conductor that just boarded allegedly has experience fixing the HVAC system on Viewliners. He could not fix car 12. I had options to move to another car or just keep my stuff where it is and sit in a roomette in the same car, cool off, then go back to my room to use the restroom, change clothes or whatever. I chose option 2 - it is the easiest since I only had a few hours left on the train.

Back to toilets.....
While chatting with the conductor about the AC, we heard the "toilet noise" and discussed that for a while. I told him it was much worse in the 10 car than in the 12 car. I assumed it was because there were more passengers in the 10 car, and they were older (and thus used the restrooms all night long). The conductor also mentioned that the 11 car is a V-1 with no public restrooms and quite a few passengers walk forward to the restrooms in the rear of the 10 car to use the public restrooms when they did not want to use their in-room toilet. Thus, the 10 car toilets are getting a real workout and the passengers in rooms A and B hear every flush. Not exactly a selling point for the most expensive rooms in the brand new Viewliners.


----------



## Cal

pennyk said:


> The conductor also mentioned that the 11 car is a V-1 with no public restrooms and quite a few passengers walk forward to the restrooms in the rear of the 10 car to use the public restrooms when they did not want to use their in-room toilet. Thus, the 10 car toilets are getting a real workout and the passengers in rooms A and B hear every flush. Not exactly a selling point for the most expensive rooms in the brand new Viewliners.


That makes sense. Not sure how we didn't see that coming..


----------



## Mailliw

Cal said:


> That makes sense. Not sure how we didn't see that coming..


Amtrak should not be running VIs and VIIs on the same trainsets (unless they go through w/ their original plan of adding shared toilets to the VIs).


----------



## Ryan

Why not?


----------



## Steve4031

Willbridge said:


> Flex toilets?



Flex toilet: what happens to the toilet after I eat flex dining.


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Flex toilet: what happens to the toilet after I eat flex dining.


I can't help but be reminded of that incident in Chicago which left a poor store clerk in tears.


----------



## Sauve850

pennyk said:


> I am currently in a bedroom in the Silver Meteor 12 car. The air conditioning was out when I boarded. In WAS, Mechanical boarded and "fixed" the issue. It cooled off during the night but failed again by morning. The H room, bedrooms and rooms 1 and 2 are hot. The rest of the car is cool (more like cold).
> 
> The conductor that just boarded allegedly has experience fixing the HVAC system on Viewliners. He could not fix car 12. I had options to move to another car or just keep my stuff where it is and sit in a roomette in the same car, cool off, then go back to my room to use the restroom, change clothes or whatever. I chose option 2 - it is the easiest since I only had a few hours left on the train.
> 
> Back to toilets.....
> While chatting with the conductor about the AC, we heard the "toilet noise" and discussed that for a while. I told him it was much worse in the 10 car than in the 12 car. I assumed it was because there were more passengers in the 10 car, and they were older (and thus used the restrooms all night long). The conductor also mentioned that the 11 car is a V-1 with no public restrooms and quite a few passengers walk forward to the restrooms in the rear of the 10 car to use the public restrooms when they did not want to use their in-room toilet. Thus, the 10 car toilets are getting a real workout and the passengers in rooms A and B hear every flush. Not exactly a selling point for the most expensive rooms in the brand new Viewliners.


Over the course of many years V-1 bedrooms Ive been in have had HVAC issues with rest of car cool. I'll be in V-2 bedroom (hopefully) heading back to Fl from DC in Sept and its not encouraging to hear a/c in your bedroom was not working.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

There is two different AC units on a Viewliner. One covers the bedrooms, the other is for the Roomettes. That why Penny is hang out in a roomette while her bedroom is hot.


----------



## cocojacoby

We certainly all have our opinions here on how to run things. Would you put your money where your mouth is if you could do so with Amtrak:









European Sleeper seeks small-scale investors to raise capital funds


European Sleeper is inviting small private investors to buy company bonds as it seeks to raise around €500,000 in capital.




www.railjournal.com


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> We certainly all have our opinions here on how to run things. Would you put your money where your mouth is if you could do so with Amtrak:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> European Sleeper seeks small-scale investors to raise capital funds
> 
> 
> European Sleeper is inviting small private investors to buy company bonds as it seeks to raise around €500,000 in capital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.railjournal.com


As an investment if my retirement depended on it exclusively? No. As a side bit, maybe. Then again my mouth is not quite there either.


----------



## Ziv

500k Euros is not a huge amount of money, even for a start-up company this size. I wonder why they are emphasizing small-scale investors? I don't even know what I don't know about what type of an "investment" this is. Is it like investing in Elio, basically just throwing your money away? My gut is that it is at least a bit better than that... 
Or would it be like investing in Texas Central Railroad if it went public? 
I wonder what perks the Fans or Ambassadors get? LOL!


----------



## jiml

jis said:


> As an investment if my retirement depended on it exclusively? No. As a side bit, maybe. Then again my mouth is not quite there either.


Did you mean side bit or side bet?


----------



## me_little_me

As to investing, I had proposed in this forum a long time ago that Amtrak have outside investors buy and provide rolling stock with those investors getting some the benefit of the additional availability of seats/rooms. Instead, Amtrak screwed over the private car owners who were trying to do just that by paying Amtrak to transport those private cars in which the car owners would sell "experiential service" rooms.

So, would I trust Amtrak to sell bonds or trust a company that wants to do such a thing? Not a chance. Amtrak is too risky and too expensive. Hey, I am looking into renting a private car for a trip and Amtrak's charges vastly exceed the cost of the car rental itself. That tells me Amtrak doesn't want others involved.

As to the European operation, it sounds like their costs for use of the track (and transportation of the cars?) are likely to give them a chance to be successful.


----------



## Ziv

I think it would be in the interest of states along the LD routes to buy new sleeper cars and deck out the interior with photos and brochures of the best tourist spots in that state. And have the states lease the sleepers back to Amtrak (as long as Amtrak keeps it on the route that goes through that state) on a longterm basis. The states get to promote their tourism chops while investing a relatively small amount. Amtrak gets additional sleeper car inventory with no upfront investment and a modest annual payment to the states that own the cars.
Montana, I am looking at you! LOL!


me_little_me said:


> As to investing, I had proposed in this forum a long time ago that Amtrak have outside investors buy and provide rolling stock with those investors getting some the benefit of the additional availability of seats/rooms. Instead, Amtrak screwed over the private car owners who were trying to do just that by paying Amtrak to transport those private cars in which the car owners would sell "experiential service" rooms.
> 
> So, would I trust Amtrak to sell bonds or trust a company that wants to do such a thing? Not a chance. Amtrak is too risky and too expensive. Hey, I am looking into renting a private car for a trip and Amtrak's charges vastly exceed the cost of the car rental itself. That tells me Amtrak doesn't want others involved.
> 
> As to the European operation, it sounds like their costs for use of the track (and transportation of the cars?) are likely to give them a chance to be successful.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Ziv said:


> 500k Euros is not a huge amount of money, even for a start-up company this size. I wonder why they are emphasizing small-scale investors? I don't even know what I don't know about what type of an "investment" this is. Is it like investing in Elio, basically just throwing your money away? My gut is that it is at least a bit better than that...
> Or would it be like investing in Texas Central Railroad if it went public?
> I wonder what perks the Fans or Ambassadors get? LOL!



This is been cover in this thread here:






Sleeper train revival in Europe


This article came out last July, but I just noticed it: 'People don't want to fly': Covid-19 reawakens Europe's sleeper trains | World news | The Guardian One interesting is that the article mentions the financial hurdles seem to involve the fact that a sleeper had a lower capacity than a...




www.amtraktrains.com





The recap is in Europe you can rent equipment, these two guys are running a couchette on the back of a regular schedule train. Open access is why they can do this, the train is a private operator, and can run there train to and from any station. (Space available)

Yes you should plan on losing all your money. Think a Kickstarter funding. You might get something or not, might get a thank you with your name spell wrong or not. Just plan on never seeing a return on funds.


----------



## TEREB

We are currently in the new bedroom. So far so good. First impressions. Nice. Coffee is very good. That’s a big plus. Without the closet to hold the ladder, the bathroom is larger.


----------



## TEREB

I took some pics of the H bedroom


----------



## cocojacoby

I don't remember the ladder affecting the bathroom. I thought it was just placed in the upper bunk. I know the cloths closet has been eliminated but that was next to the sofa.

I assume the H room still has the shower in the old toilet alcove?

Are the coffee machines working again in the sleepers?


----------



## TEREB

Paper menus in room. Breakfast coming. Will post more later


----------



## TEREB

cocojacoby said:


> I don't remember the ladder affecting the bathroom. I thought it was just placed in the upper bunk. I know the cloths closet has been eliminated but that was next to the sofa.
> 
> I assume the H room still has the shower in the old toilet alcove?
> 
> Are the coffee machines working again in the sleepers?


If you look at my pics, you will see the ladder was placed behind the single seat. H Room’s bathroom in open. No alcove, no nothing. 
The coffee pot is there, but not in use.


----------



## TEREB

The thermostat doesn’t work. Outlets galore. Sink water very user friendly. It you tap gently you’ll get less water. If you actually press it all the way without holding down, you’ll get enough water to wash and rinse your hands. There is a stopper if you want to fill the basin. 
Pullout door for trash. No attached tissue box.


----------



## TEREB

No velcro to attach the curtain to the door frame. Door lock is a little hard to get used to.


----------



## OBS

Thanks for the reports...


----------



## TEREB

I felt like I was in the theme song of from Cheers. “Where everybody know your name.” 
When we arrived at the station, I went to the ticket counter to ask which side the train was boarding, I was greeted by my name. The SRA greeted me by my name as did the conductor. No one asked to see my ticket. Boy. I must be famous. Lol


----------



## TEREB

TEREB said:


> No velcro to attach the curtain to the door frame. Door lock is a little hard to get used to.


The train braked fast and the door slammed shut, locked, with the curtain caught between the door and the frame.. I had to pull the curtain to be able the unlock and open the door. Door wouldn’t unlock with the curtain stuck, got real nervous.


----------



## jis

On the Silver service I am usually greeted with "Help me pronounce your name correctly". I always appreciate the personal attention. Of late the SCAs have all been remarkably good. Many of them new that I had never seen before.


TEREB said:


> The train braked fast and the door slammed shut, locked, with the curtain caught between the door and the frame.. I had to pull the curtain to be able the unlock and open the door. Door wouldn’t unlock with the curtain stuck, got real nervous.


I noticed in my V-II Roomette that I had to push the door towards the frame to be able to unlock even without any curtain stuck.


----------



## lizpackslight

Is there a way to lock the doors in the open position? We experienced the door slamming shut (or open) and finally decided to just close and lock it to avoid that. But there are times when I would like to have the door open get some air circulating.


----------



## cocojacoby

TEREB said:


> If you look at my pics, you will see the ladder was placed behind the single seat. H Room’s bathroom in open. No alcove, no nothing.
> The coffee pot is there, but not in use. View attachment 22806


So they removed the shower from the H room? Interesting.


----------



## TEREB

cocojacoby said:


> So they removed the shower from the H room? Interesting.


No. It’s still there, but out in the open.


----------



## TEREB

TEREB said:


> No. It’s still there, but out in the open.


. I’m sorry. I misspoked. No shower I could see


----------



## TEREB

cocojacoby said:


> So they removed the shower from the H room? Interesting.


Not that I could see


----------



## cocojacoby

TEREB said:


> I felt like I was in the theme song of from Cheers. “Where everybody know your name.”
> When we arrived at the station, I went to the ticket counter to ask which side the train was boarding, I was greeted by my name. The SRA greeted me by my name as did the conductor. No one asked to see my ticket. Boy. I must be famous. Lol



That's like cruise ship treatment. I don't recall that being the case in my recent Amtrak travels. A nice touch if a new policy.


----------



## TEREB

lizpackslight said:


> Is there a way to lock the doors in the open position? We experienced the door slamming shut (or open) and finally decided to just close and lock it to avoid that. But there are times when I would like to have the door open get some air circulating.



If you push it hard til you hear it click, it will will stay open. I must not have opened it properly for it to slam like it did


----------



## TEREB

cocojacoby said:


> That's like cruise ship treatment. I don't recall that being the case in my recent Amtrak travels. A nice touch if a new policy.


We cruise quite often. Yes they do. Even If you met them the year before.


----------



## OBS

cocojacoby said:


> So they removed the shower from the H room? Interesting.


I didn't realize it had a shower...


----------



## cocojacoby

OBS said:


> I didn't realize it had a shower...



There was a separate toilet/shower combo "room" like in the bedrooms. It seemed like a good solution and Amtrak could also sell these H rooms to anyone else if they were available. With this new design the toilet is exposed in the middle of the room and now the room is not as sellable as it was previously. So on trains like the Meteor, which often has three sleepers, Amtrak may possibly lose that revenue.


----------



## TEREB

I posted in dining about how bad lunch was.

I asked for ice tea with lemon. I was expecting their homemade ice tea. Instead I got this


----------



## TEREB

jis said:


> On the Silver service I am usually greeted with "Help me pronounce your name correctly". I always appreciate the personal attention. Of late the SCAs have all been remarkably good. Many of them new that I had never seen before.
> 
> I noticed in my V-II Roomette that I had to push the door towards the frame to be able to unlock even without any curtain stuck.


 
I was greeted by my first name. My last name is not hard to pronounce.


----------



## TEREB

After a little more than 7 hrs on the train, I’m finding the seats very uncomfortable. The seat doesn’t feel as deep as in the older car. 
A lot of pluses to the new car. But comfort is not one of them. The backs of my lower thigh is hurting.


----------



## Bob Dylan

TEREB said:


> The train braked fast and the door slammed shut, locked, with the curtain caught between the door and the frame.. I had to pull the curtain to be able the unlock and open the door. Door wouldn’t unlock with the curtain stuck, got real nervous.


A Design Flaw that Amtrak needs to fix, this is common on all new Equipment.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

TEREB said:


> After a little more than 7 hrs on the train, I’m finding the seats very uncomfortable. The seat doesn’t feel as deep as in the older car.
> A lot of pluses to the new car. But comfort is not one of them. The backs of my lower thigh is hurting.


Maybe they just need to be broken in.


----------



## TEREB

AmtrakBlue said:


> Maybe they just need to be broken in.


Seats are not deep enough


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm part of the AUers that liked the Toliets in the Viewliners,so wouldn't mind continuing to ride in them after they are rehabbed since they're getting shabby!

As for the "Bugs" in the New V-2s, it'll take awhile for all of them to become known.

Whether or not Amtrak will "Fix" them is "Blowin' in the Wind!"


----------



## Ferroequinologist

Could someone clarify something: Do the new Viewliner Roomettes have a sink? I know they don't have toilets. An Amtrak reservations rep told me there are no sinks. I thought I had seen a video of a new Viewliner with a sink.


----------



## pennyk

Ferroequinologist said:


> Could someone clarify something: Do the new Viewliner Roomettes have a sink? I know they don't have toilets. An Amtrak reservations rep told me there are no sinks. I thought I had seen a video of a new Viewliner with a sink.


there are sinks in the Viewliner roomettes but not superliner roomettes. Many of the reservation reps have never traveled in a Viewliner sleeper (let alone a new one).


----------



## Ferroequinologist

pennyk said:


> there are sinks in the Viewliner roomettes but not superliner roomettes. Many of the reservation reps have never traveled in a Viewliner sleeper (let alone a new one).



Yes there are sinks and toilets in the original Viewliner but they've eliminated toilets in the new Viewliner -- My question is whether the sinks have also been eliminated. I don't believe so but Amtrak reservations people say they have neither toilet nor sink ! Is that correct?


----------



## zephyr17

Ferroequinologist said:


> Yes there are sinks and toilets in the original Viewliner but they've eliminated toilets in the new Viewliner -- My question is whether the sinks have also been eliminated. I don't believe so but Amtrak reservations people say they have neither toilet nor sink ! Is that correct?


Viewliner II roomettes have sinks.

Amtrak reservations agents are pretty well known for their lack of knowledge of conditions in the field, especially for long distance trains.

They reliably quote you a price and book a ticket. That is the extent of their reliability.


----------



## IndyLions

Ferroequinologist said:


> My question is whether the sinks have also been eliminated. I don't believe so but Amtrak reservations people say they have neither toilet nor sink ! Is that correct?



…and the new VLII sinks (especially the faucets) are much improved over the VLI, IMHO!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

TEREB said:


> I posted in dining about how bad lunch was.View attachment 22833
> 
> I asked for ice tea with lemon. I was expecting their homemade ice tea. Instead I got this
> View attachment 22832


----------



## cocojacoby

IndyLions said:


> …and the new VLII sinks (especially the faucets) are much improved over the VLI, IMHO!
> 
> View attachment 22970



I hated those old faucets and the way they splashed everywhere. These, and the lower water pressure, are a big improvement I have been told.


----------



## JontyMort

Is there any acceleration in the glacial roll-out of the V-IIs? I was hoping for one on the LSL in early October but am not holding my breath.


----------



## jis

JontyMort said:


> Is there any acceleration in the glacial roll-out of the V-IIs? I was hoping for one on the LSL in early October but am not holding my breath.


If they simply localize the use of those to the Silvers they are pretty much upto their 80% active deployment number.


----------



## JontyMort

jis said:


> If they simply localize the use of those to the Silvers they are pretty much upto their 80% active deployment number.


I’ll put that down as “no”, then.


----------



## Cal

How many VII sleepers were ordered? Will there be enough to put them on all Eastern LD trains?


----------



## PVD

Cal said:


> How many VII sleepers were ordered? Will there be enough to put them on all Eastern LD trains?


25 sleepers, in theory, one car could go into each set of single level overnight trains. Most people would argue that is not the likely (or most sensible) path forward.


----------



## cocojacoby

I know they have an option for 70 more cars. Would they have a choice of what kind of car that would be?


----------



## PVD

The original order was placed almost 11 years ago and we still don't have all of the cars. I would be pretty certain that the option cutoff date has long since passed, and even if it didn't it would be pretty hard to envision any scenario where Amtrak bought more cars from CAF or with an obsolete design.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Amtrak should never allow CAF to build any kind of car for them in the future. CAF truly botched this job in a big way. Is the sleeper order even complete at this late date? CAF must have one person working on the entire project at this date.


----------



## cocojacoby

MikefromCrete said:


> Amtrak should never allow CAF to build any kind of car for them in the future. CAF truly botched this job in a big way. Is the sleeper order even complete at this late date? CAF must have one person working on the entire project at this date.



The devil you know . . . 

CAF certainly has the experience building the Viewliners now and starting fresh with a new builder is probably riskier since it would involve an all new learning curve that Amtrak wouldn't want to deal with again. At least CAF stuck around all these years. They could have just gave up and walked away like Nippon Shayrio.

If the option is still available Amtrak should seriously consider using it in some way . . . more sleepers, dorms, or maybe even new Viewliner coaches.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> If the option is still available Amtrak should seriously consider using it in some way . . . more sleepers, dorms, or maybe even new Viewliner coaches.


There are no options available, as they did expire a while back without any having been exercised. At this point it is almost certain that no additional Viewliners will be ordered or built. Will you please just let it go and move onto something more useful? 

The difference between CAF and NS is primarily that CAF's Viewliner shell did not fail the buff strength test miserably. Notwithstanding that I believe CAF has lost money on the Viewliner deal hand over fist, and probably does not want to hear the word Viewliner again, once they are done with finally pushing out the last Sleeper almost a decade late.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Oh but the lawsuit over the delays are just getting ready to be filed.

It would be interesting if CAF just walk away with out trying to reclaim some of that money it spent trying to meet the never ending change orders that Amtrak required.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Oh but the lawsuit over the delays are just getting ready to be filed.
> 
> It would be interesting if CAF just walk away with out trying to reclaim some of that money it spent trying to meet the never ending change orders that Amtrak required.


Of course it would have helped if they did not have to redo the welds multiple times too. 

But yeah, it would be fun to see how much dirty laundry both parties are willing to expose in the process of attempting to get some monetary gains.

Incidentally I was looking at the latest update from Dave Warner on Amtrak Roster at the OTOL site. It appears five Viewliner II Sleepers still remain to be delivered. So currently there are 20 in hand of which 12 are in regular service on any given day.

Another interesting thing is that apparently 8 Baggage cars are currently stored dead, for unknown reasons.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Yes both side have as you put it “dirty laundry” would it be better to walk away, and save face for CAF. I do not know.

I would think Amtrak will not be filling first, as I am sure there happy with the delays. How much of these equipment has been deployed for axle count? How many railcars are sitting around for protection? How many are just gathering dust?


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Yes both side have as you put it “dirty laundry” would it be better to walk away, and save face for CAF. I do not know.
> 
> I would think Amtrak will not be filling first, as I am sure there happy with the delays. How much of these equipment has been deployed for axle count? How many railcars are sitting around for protection? How many are just gathering dust?


I know Boardman was extremely frustrated with the delays, because he told us as much. Several of us had a chance to talk to him at the door of the Beech Grove (the car) after he graciously gave us a tour of it during a visit to the Wilmington shops.

I doubt Anderson cared much. I am not sure it was really on Moorman's radar either. He probably had many bigger fish to fry.


----------



## cocojacoby

jis said:


> The difference between CAF and NS is primarily that CAF's Viewliner shell did not fail the buff strength test miserably.



From the information that I have read, the NS shell failed at 798,000# (800,000# required). I don't think you can say it failed miserably.


----------



## jis

cocojacoby said:


> From the information that I have read, the NS shell failed at 798,000# (800,000# required). I don't think you can say it failed miserably.


Well, things flying around the test harness is pretty impressive whether one calls it miserably or not. The failure was pretty catastrophic from what I have heard. It was clearly not something that was fixable by a small tweak. I don't care whether it was miserable or total, but it was a very distinct failure that was bad enough for NS to not pursue it any further in any fixing attempt.


----------



## Cal

cocojacoby said:


> If the option is still available Amtrak should seriously consider using it in some way . . . more sleepers, dorms, or maybe even new Viewliner coaches.


I personally would love to see Viewliner coaches, but that's not happening, unfortunately (but just imagine the matching consist ) . They definitely should have ordered more sleepers.


----------



## west point

Is another 3 sleepers being delivered today or this week ?


----------



## Palmetto

west point said:


> Is another 3 sleepers being delivered today or this week ?




Yes. There are photos of them at other sites.


----------



## Cal

What routes will they be deployed too?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> What routes will they be deployed too?


Probably the Silver Trains since that's the only Route that currently has them!( this way they can start rehabbing the V Is from the Silvers)


----------



## OBS

Bob Dylan said:


> Probably the Silver Trains since that's the only Route that currently has them!( this way they can start rehabbing the V Is from the Silvers)


Keeping them on the Silver's also keeps them in and out of MIA where they are now intimately familiar with the teething issues and are best prepared to address the problems....


----------



## AmtrakBlue

View attachment IMG_6035.MOV

Yes, this is on the high-speed NEC.


----------



## enviro5609

OBS said:


> Keeping them on the Silver's also keeps them in and out of MIA where they are now intimately familiar with the teething issues and are best prepared to address the problems....


While true, the new cars are already 2/3 or 1/2 of the sleeper cars on the Star and Meteor.

If they go to all VIIs, then they’ll have to deadhead the VIs for maintenance at the Hialeah facility. It’s more efficient to keep at least one VI in revenue service on each Silver Service train, and rotate them through from other lines at NYP.

If they’ve reached that saturation point already, we might see the VIIs on other lines sooner rather than later.


----------



## Ziv

I agree. Better the devil you know. Adding 20 or more sleepers to the CAF order may be a good option if CAF is willing. It may be that CAF would rather walk away but even their current glacial pace is better than starting over and having to wait years for the first sleeper to be delivered.


cocojacoby said:


> The devil you know . . .
> 
> CAF certainly has the experience building the Viewliners now and starting fresh with a new builder is probably riskier since it would involve an all new learning curve that Amtrak wouldn't want to deal with again. At least CAF stuck around all these years. They could have just gave up and walked away like Nippon Shayrio.
> 
> If the option is still available Amtrak should seriously consider using it in some way . . . more sleepers, dorms, or maybe even new Viewliner coaches.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Or even more baggage cars. In my youth I slept in a baggage car.


----------



## jis

Ziv said:


> I agree. Better the devil you know. Adding 20 or more sleepers to the CAF order may be a good option if CAF is willing. It may be that CAF would rather walk away but even their current glacial pace is better than starting over and having to wait years for the first sleeper to be delivered.


And get them in 2035


----------



## railiner

Brian Battuello said:


> Or even more baggage cars. In my youth I slept in a baggage car.


I would have rather seen them convert all the Viewliner baggage car orders to sleepers.
Getting baggage cars is probably much easier, since “off the shelf” box cars could be adapted with passenger trucks and HEP cables, like they did with the MHC cars in the 80’s…


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> And get them in 2035


I think CAF has worked out the bugs in the Viewliner manufacturing process by NOW. Should go OK as long as they didn't lay off the stainless-steel welders it took them so long to hire.


----------



## Ziv

I am the eternal optimist. I was hoping to see 2 sleepers arrive per year between 2025 and 2034! 
LOL!
Seriously, though, Neroden has a point that is worth considering. CAF has the skilled welders now that they needed so badly at the beginning of the build process. It would be a shame to let the line lapse and see those guys end up moving to a new job in the Gulf of Mexico or some other work site. 
The part of this thread that is pretty pathetic is that I was hoping to see 20 or 30 new sleepers. Normal nations buy railcars in the hundreds relatively frequently. I can't imagine how many railcars India or China have purchased in the past 10 years. Yeah, they have larger populations than the US but their railcar buys seem to be much higher even on a per capita basis.



jis said:


> And get them in 2035


----------



## jis

All of that is theoretically fine. But nothing will happen until the Amfleet replacement is well on its way. But of course I will not stand in the way of fantasies


----------



## striker64

Currently riding on 98 in a new car. Quite a surprise when I boarded yesterday, although I'm a semi-frequent rider I don't keep up with news so I was surprised - and not in a good way - to see the toilets were removed from the roommettes.

So, ok, fine, we all have to use the bathrooms at the end of the car. Except that the toilets stopped flushing a few hours into the trip and they've been locked out ever since. The attendant mentioned this was not the first time it had happened on her shift, so that seems like a bad omen..

One bedroom was not booked, so we've been allowed to use that toilet instead. Didn't take long at all for that to get gross. Also doesn't help that this train is 4+ hours late.

The room itself otherwise is not bad. It's cleaner obviously, mostly because it's new, and everything works pretty smoothly, but the seats are weirdly plush and I find myself getting pretty uncomfortable.

All in all, I'm not a fan. One reason I ride the train is because I like a private bathroom. Don't really understand why it's gone. I can't afford bedrooms on the regular, so if having to hope there's an unbooked bedroom on my car for if/when the communal restrooms go out of order, my train days are over. Especially when you combine it with the delay, which is by far the worst I've experienced on multiple Silver trips, and the awful flex dining, there's not much left that makes this appealing.

Anyway, I hope everyone that had roommette toilets as their #1 complaint (according to the attendant) enjoy the new cars.


----------



## PVD

The in roomette toilet debate has gone on for years. There are reasons for and against. There are plenty of times the in room systems failed, especially in the earlier days when pipes freezing had not been addressed.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Striker64 current on the train. So the pipes have not froze, the system is working because the bedroom’s bathroom is working. Someone flushed a paper towel clogging the pipes is more likely. Anyways the bathroom debate is not over into the Viewliner Ones get refurbished. Should the bathrooms be removed from the roomette, than the debate is over.


----------



## Josh M

I wonder how much the in-roomette toilet debate is influenced by one's first long distance trip. For example, the first two long distance trips I took were the CZ and EB, so I got used to having to schlep to the communal restroom. When I took the LSL two years ago, having the toilet in my room (and having to remember to close the curtain!) seemed...odd. I don't love it, but didn't hate it, either. I can't help but wonder if I'd have had different thoughts if my first long distance trip had been one of the eastern trains.

I'll be taking the Meteor this fall, so hopefully I'll end up in one of the new sleepers to compare to my Viewliner I experience on the LSL.


----------



## pennyk

striker64 said:


> Currently riding on 98 in a new car. Quite a surprise when I boarded yesterday, although I'm a semi-frequent rider I don't keep up with news so I was surprised - and not in a good way - to see the toilets were removed from the roommettes.
> 
> So, ok, fine, we all have to use the bathrooms at the end of the car. Except that the toilets stopped flushing a few hours into the trip and they've been locked out ever since. The attendant mentioned this was not the first time it had happened on her shift, so that seems like a bad omen..
> 
> One bedroom was not booked, so we've been allowed to use that toilet instead. Didn't take long at all for that to get gross. Also doesn't help that this train is 4+ hours late.
> 
> The room itself otherwise is not bad. It's cleaner obviously, mostly because it's new, and everything works pretty smoothly, but the seats are weirdly plush and I find myself getting pretty uncomfortable.
> 
> All in all, I'm not a fan. One reason I ride the train is because I like a private bathroom. Don't really understand why it's gone. I can't afford bedrooms on the regular, so if having to hope there's an unbooked bedroom on my car for if/when the communal restrooms go out of order, my train days are over. Especially when you combine it with the delay, which is by far the worst I've experienced on multiple Silver trips, and the awful flex dining, there's not much left that makes this appealing.
> 
> Anyway, I hope everyone that had roommette toilets as their #1 complaint (according to the attendant) enjoy the new cars.


I am a regular Meteor rider also and I agree with you. However, even though bedrooms are out of my price range, I have still booked bedrooms for my upcoming trips because of the toilets.


----------



## Seaboard92

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Striker64 current on the train. So the pipes have not froze, the system is working because the bedroom’s bathroom is working. Someone flushed a paper towel clogging the pipes is more likely. Anyways the bathroom debate is not over into the Viewliner Ones get refurbished. Should the bathrooms be removed from the roomette, than the debate is over.



I'm still surprised people are that dumb to throw a paper towel down the toilet. I have to make a daily announcement before each flight asking people not to throw sanitary wipes down the toilet. I mean it's common sense but to some people that isn't very common. I remember when I worked PV trips for the public school network in West Virginia the things I would pull from the pipes enroute, paper, action figures, and other items. Sometimes I swear we need to be like VIA and have an onboard mechanical person riding.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Probably the Silver Trains since that's the only Route that currently has them!( this way they can start rehabbing the V Is from the Silvers)


There is no money at present for doing any more than cosmetic fixup like on the Superliners for the V-1s. So that question is moot. Getting common toilets into them is a major project which requires some dedicated funding. Theoretically the work could be done in house, provided the modules are available at hand. They are yet to be ordered though.


----------



## PVD

Some years ago some guy on Metro North dropped his cellphone in and he tried to retrieve it. His arm got caught, and the toilet had to be cut up. Guess who got the bill for the repair.....


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> Some years ago some guy on Metro North dropped his cellphone in and he tried to retrieve it. His arm got caught, and the toilet had to be cut up. Guess who got the bill for the repair.....


That is one dumb way to figure out how much ones arm may be worth


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> There is no money at present for doing any more than cosmetic fixup like on the Superliners for the V-1s. So that question is moot. Getting common toilets into them is a major project which requires some dedicated funding. Theoretically the work could be done in house, provided the modules are available at hand. They are yet to be ordered though.


So the Biden $$$ for Amtrak can't be spent on this project? 

And would Amtrak once again give a contract to CAF to do the work?( Politics being Politics,with Chuck Schumer the Majority Leader)Let's hope not!


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> So the Biden $$$ for Amtrak can't be spent on this project?


They don't really exist yet, and no one knows what the final appropriation numbers will be. Authorizations are easy to spin out. They don't cost anything, in a manner of speaking. 

Amtrak is free to use funds generated internally too, so at the end of the day it is Amtrak that has decided not to do the refurbishment of the V-1s to the V-2 commonality in the near future, if ever.


> And would Amtrak once again give a contract to CAF to do the work?( Politics being Politics,with Chuck Schumer the Majority Leader)Let's hope not!


Those are matters to address after they decide to resurrect that project. Currently there is a declared decision not to do it. So the question is moot for the moment. Amtrak could even do it in house at BEE. Of course the modules would be acquired from an external vendor which does the modules. CAF had nothing to do with that. So there is no particular reason to involve CAF.


----------



## PVD

jis said:


> Tat is one dumb way to figure out how much ones arm may be worth


I'm not sure if it occurred before or after they got rid of the bar cars...


----------



## PVD

jis said:


> They don't really exist yet, and no one knows what the final appropriation numbers will be. Authorizations are easy to spin out. They don't cost anything, in a manner of speaking.
> 
> Amtrak is free to use funds generated internally too, so at the end of the day it is Amtrak that has decided not to do the refurbishment of the V-1s to the V-2 commonality in the near future, if ever.
> 
> Those are matters to address after they decide to resurrect that project. Currently there is a declared decision not to do it. So the question is moot for the moment. Amtrak could even do it in house at BEE. Of course the modules would be acquired from an external vendor which does the modules. CAF had nothing to do with that. So there is no particular reason to involve CAF.


RailPlan is the module vendor


----------



## SubwayNut

PVD said:


> I'm not sure if it occurred before or after they got rid of the bar cars...


I remember this incident, the Bar Cars still existed on the New Haven Line only, it happed in the mid-2000s, but on the Harlem Line which lost its bar cars a few decades before that.


----------



## jis

Just for amusement I was reading this thread from back in 2012. Such enthusiasm and expectations! 





__





viewliner diner 8400


saw 8400 sitting in washington dc all by it self, anyone know how it came in or where its heading next




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Just for amusement I was reading this thread from back in 2012. Such enthusiasm and expectations!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> viewliner diner 8400
> 
> 
> saw 8400 sitting in washington dc all by it self, anyone know how it came in or where its heading next
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com


You mean Amtrak has Viewliner Diners that are actually in Service as Diners?


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> You mean Amtrak has Viewliner Diners that are actually in Service as Diners?


Only one back then.

But notice the expectation dates for delivery, and the hope that we'd get Diners then Sleepers. All that we got for a long time were a stream of Baggage cars instead, and we are yet to get the last two Sleepers AFAIK. And of course only 11 of the 25 Diners are currently in use for providing Flex Dining only to Sleeping Car passengers. How far Amtrak has fallen in the last ten years! Of course all in the interest of better serving the Millennials or something like that I suppose! 

Also the more I am reading these old threads the more I am realizing how almost consistently wrong we tend to be about our prognostications. It is quite sobering and humbling actually for someone like me who contributes a lot to this cacophony  But at least a third of the time some of us seem to be close to right too.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Only one back then.
> 
> But notice the expectation dates for delivery, and the hope that we'd get Diners then Sleepers. All that we got for a long time were a stream of Baggage cars instead, and we are yet to get the last two Sleepers AFAIK. And of course only 11 of the 25 Diners are currently in use for providing Flex Dining only to Sleeping Car passengers. How far Amtrak has fallen in the last ten years! Of course all in the interest of better serving the Millennials or something like that I suppose!
> 
> Also the more I am reading these old threads the more I am realizing how almost consistently wrong we tend to be about our prognostications. It is quite sobering and humbling actually for someone like me who contributes a lot to this cacophony  But at least a third of the time some of us seem to be close to right too.


Wait until the new cars go into service - in 2117. Moreover, they'll probably be used as baggage cars!


----------



## Bob Dylan

me_little_me said:


> Wait until the new cars go into service - in 2117. Moreover, they'll probably be used as baggage cars!


Or Axle Count Cars, along with the Sleepers, Diners and Lounges!


----------



## Cal

Viewliner II on 448? Can anyone confirm/deny


----------



## Agent

Found this video posted by Annette Gifford of #449 on Wednesday shows that the Viewliner is AMTK 62043 _New River_.


----------



## Tlcooper93

New River alternates between LSL and NE Regionals. 
It’s easy to mistake it for a VII as it’s exterior is so new and shiny. Definitely looks nicer than the Silver Service VII’s.


----------



## Cal

Darn it. Got so excited when I saw that image. Too good to be true.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cocojacoby said:


> BTW - LAST VIEWLINER SLEEPER II RELEASED!
> 
> It's over friends



So now we just wait into someone think up a deployment plan for all this new equipment.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

PaTrainFan said:


> Nice. And how many are actually in service and not stored somewhere out of sight and out of mind?



At last check, the new cars are already 2/3 or 1/2 of the sleeper cars on the Star and Meteor. So 12 out of 25 in use.


----------



## Steve4031

I just booked a trip on 449 from Boston to Chicago on 9/5/21. Sure would be nice to see them trickle over to the Lake Shore Limited.


----------



## Cal

Steve4031 said:


> I just booked a trip on 449 from Boston to Chicago on 9/5/21. Sure would be nice to see them trickle over to the Lake Shore Limited.


I hope they do, although probably won't. At least not soon.


----------



## me_little_me

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> At last check, the new cars are already 2/3 or 1/2 of the sleeper cars on the Star and Meteor. So 12 out of 25 in use.


Can you imagine a CEO of a company gets 25 new expensive machines in and after they have all been delivered, the last one just recently but the rest over the last 2 1/2 years? You go to your board and explain that even before Covid, you took your time replacing or augmenting your 50 old machines which resulted in not bringing in the extra money to increase your bottom line. How long would they let you stick around?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

me_little_me said:


> Can you imagine a CEO of a company gets 25 new expensive machines in and after they have all been delivered, the last one just recently but the rest over the last 2 1/2 years? You go to your board and explain that even before Covid, you took your time replacing or augmenting your 50 old machines which resulted in not bringing in the extra money to increase your bottom line. How long would they let you stick around?


Can you imagine a CEO getting 25 new dinner cars and use them as axle count cars and explain that to the board of directors.


----------



## Exvalley

New airliners are put into service within a couple months after delivery. 

I find it hard to believe that railroad cars are more complicated than an airliner.


----------



## nti1094

jis said:


> There are no options available, as they did expire a while back without any having been exercised. At this point it is almost certain that no additional Viewliners will be ordered or built. Will you please just let it go and move onto something more useful?
> 
> The difference between CAF and NS is primarily that CAF's Viewliner shell did not fail the buff strength test miserably. Notwithstanding that I believe CAF has lost money on the Viewliner deal hand over fist, and probably does not want to hear the word Viewliner again, once they are done with finally pushing out the last Sleeper almost a decade late.


I wouldn’t say it failed miserably. One car shell got within 2,000 pounds of hitting the 800,000 pound threshold when it began to deform slightly. 
cannot fathom why they didn’t just engineer a slightly stronger shell and try again, except maybe that they really seriously underbid for the contract to win it and screwed themselves into a situation where they could not possibly make a profit on the contract. To continue with it represented only more liability, more than the cost of breaking the contract and walking away at that point I guess.


----------



## Ryan

I would imagine that the engineers that have actual knowledge of the structure how it failed would be a better source of how hard engineering a fix would be than a random person on the internet that doesn't have that knowledge.


----------



## jis

Either way, parts flying around during the failure I am told was pretty impressive.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Trains News Wire is reporting that Amtrak will begin assigning Viewliner II sleepers to New York section of Lake Shore Limited.


----------



## Cal

MikefromCrete said:


> Trains News Wire is reporting that Amtrak will begin assigning Viewliner II sleepers to New York section of Lake Shore Limited.


How reliable are they usually?


----------



## neroden

Reliable. Unfortunately they're apparently replacing Viewliner Is, and so far Amtrak hasn't added *any* sleeper capacity to *any* trains and it's still reduced relative to before the first Viewliner II sleeper went into service. Perhaps Amtrak has failed to hire enough car attendants to staff additional cars according to the union contract, in which case they really should get on that.


----------



## Cal

neroden said:


> Reliable. Unfortunately they're apparently replacing Viewliner Is, and so far Amtrak hasn't added *any* sleeper capacity to *any* trains and it's still reduced relative to before the first Viewliner II sleeper went into service. Perhaps Amtrak has failed to hire enough car attendants to staff additional cars according to the union contract, in which case they really should get on that.


Will any VI's be refurbished to match VII's?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

That was the original plan, but no funds are available.


----------



## Exvalley

MikefromCrete said:


> Trains News Wire is reporting that Amtrak will begin assigning Viewliner II sleepers to New York section of Lake Shore Limited.


Interesting. I am on that train in October - but in the first sleeper car. Since I’m traveling alone I’m fine either way. A newer sleeper would be nice, but so would a toilet.


----------



## Cal

Exvalley said:


> A newer sleeper would be nice, but so would a toilet.


One of many debates that will never end!


----------



## Mailliw

I'm taking the Lake Shore Limited in November and I'll be thrilled if I get a VII.


----------



## pennyk

Mailliw said:


> I'm taking the Lake Shore Limited in November and I'll be thrilled if I get a VII.


I am taking it in December and I am a big fan of in-room toilets, so I just changed my reservation from roomette to bedroom to make sure I get a private restroom. My point balance has suffered as a result of the change.


----------



## edolan

I would be very happy to get a VLII on the Lake Shore Limited — but I honestly feel like it would make more sense on the Crescent — especially with the new schedule the Crescent is quite long — new sleepers might be a nice addition. Also, are there any plans to bring back the VLII diners on the Crescent?? — even if it’s not for traditional dining.


----------



## Cal

edolan said:


> I would be very happy to get a VLII on the Lake Shore Limited — but I honestly feel like it would make more sense on the Crescent — especially with the new schedule the Crescent is quite long — new sleepers might be a nice addition. Also, are there any plans to bring back the VLII diners on the Crescent?? — even if it’s not for traditional dining.


It would be better to put on the Crescent, but (please, correct me if I am wrong) I think Amtrak has always favored the Silvers (Meteor in particular) and the LSL above other Eastern LD trains.


----------



## MARC Rider

Cal said:


> It would be better to put on the Crescent, but (please, correct me if I am wrong) I think Amtrak has always favored the Silvers (Meteor in particular) and the LSL above other Eastern LD trains.


Oh, I'm not so sure. The LSL was one of the first eastern trains (along with the Capitol Limited) to get Flex dining, and the Crescent and Silver Meteor retained traditional dining, at least for a while.


----------



## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> Oh, I'm not so sure. The LSL was one of the first eastern trains (along with the Capitol Limited) to get Flex dining, and the Crescent and Silver Meteor retained traditional dining, at least for a while.


And I stand corrected. I'm surprised that the Cardinal retained traditional dining until late 2019...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> And I stand corrected. I'm surprised that the Cardinal retained traditional dining until late 2019...


The Cardinal did not have traditional dining in 2019. It had the diner lite (diner/cafe car). I don't know when/if it did have what we call traditional dining.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> The Cardinal did have have traditional dining in 2019. It had the diner lite (diner/cafe car). I don't know when/if it did have what we call traditional dining.





This was mid-September of 2019.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> View attachment 24168
> 
> 
> This was mid-September of 2019.


That looks like a cafe car. And there’s no food shown, so it’s most likely the diner lite menu (aka, no steaks, no french toast). It didn’t even have the scrambled eggs when I rode it in 2015


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> That looks like a cafe car. And there’s no food shown, so it’s most likely the diner lite menu (aka, no steaks, no french toast). It didn’t even have the scrambled eggs when I rode it in 2015


Yup. Cardinal has not had any traditional dining for almost a decade probably. Been there done that many times


----------



## MARC Rider

The Cardinal's diner-lite service was sort of midway in quality between traditional dining and flex dining. It was all pre-prepared food, but of better quality than the Flex meals. They used half of a cafe car for the service just like today. I experienced it during Cardinal rides in 2013 and 2015. When I last rode the Cardinal in November 2019, they were serving flex dining. I must admit that I got nice service from the attendant, even if it was served on paper plates and with plastic utensils.


----------



## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> They used half of a cafe car for the service just like today


Well, for *some* of today. They were only serving meals in-room when I was on it


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> Well, for *some* of today. They were only serving meals in-room when I was on it


Same when I rode it in Sept 2020 - due to COVID. Not enough booths to do social distancing.


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> Same when I rode it in Sept 2020 - due to COVID. Not enough booths to do social distancing.


I think it's on the whim of the crew, I've seen a report of someone eating in the diner IIRC


----------



## Steve4031

Based on length of trip bothe the crescent and cardinal merit the use of a full service diner imho.


----------



## neroden

Steve4031 said:


> Based on length of trip bothe the crescent and cardinal merit the use of a full service diner imho.



The main issue with the Cardinal is that it's too short (not enough cars) to have enough patronage to make reasonable use of a full diner. The main reason it's too short is that the three-a-week service suppresses ridership. The solution is, of course, clear... daily service and a longer train... and there are now enough Viewliners to do it. CSX will have to be browbeat at the STB to make it happen, of course. Amtrak is laying the groundwork for browbeating CSX at the STB right now, so it might be possible.


----------



## MARC Rider

Westbound, if you ride from the NEC to Chicago, the meals are Lunch, Dinner, Breakfast. Eastbound, the meals are Dinner, Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner.

The pre-flex Diner-Lite offerings, to my taste, had enough variety for the trip length. At least I didn't have to repeat any entrees. It also helped that they had a Lunch menu that was separate from the Dinner menu. On the other hand, the flex experience eastbound forced me to repeat one of the dinner/lunch entrees. Fortunately, they didn't run out of anything on that trip, so I had some flexibility.

I do hope that when they finally upgrade the food service on the eastern trains, they will pay some attention to the poor Cardinal. At least restore the Diner-Lite menu.


----------



## west point

do not expect any increasing of service as there are openings for LAX , NOL, CHI for OBS. Also food specialists openings CHI and SEA


----------



## Cal

west point said:


> do not expect any increasing of service as there are openings for LAX , NOL, CHI for OBS. Also food specialists openings CHI and SEA


Did they fill all the Miami positions?


----------



## joelkfla

Steve4031 said:


> Based on length of trip bothe the crescent and cardinal merit the use of a full service diner imho.





neroden said:


> The main issue with the Cardinal is that it's too short (not enough cars) to have enough patronage to make reasonable use of a full diner


That makes a lot of sense. The variety of menu selections should depend on the length of the trip, but the capacity of the dining facility should depend on the number of passengers eligible and likely to use it.


----------



## me_little_me

neroden said:


> The main issue with the Cardinal is that it's too short (not enough cars) to have enough patronage to make reasonable use of a full diner. The main reason it's too short is that the three-a-week service suppresses ridership. The solution is, of course, clear... daily service and a longer train... and there are now enough Viewliners to do it. CSX will have to be browbeat at the STB to make it happen, of course. Amtrak is laying the groundwork for browbeating CSX at the STB right now, so it might be possible.


I have found days where you can't get a sleeper room at all so it's not just 3 days a week that suppresses travel. It's management.


----------



## west point

MIA positions can only be addressed by speculation. 
1. All filled or most were recalled however with large amount of C-19 Delta highly unlikely.
3. Some positions covered by WASH and NY ?
4. Training classes are full for western trains first ? 
5. Only checking employment openings the next few weeks can we have any idea at all . Then we have the NOL openings that may be changing as we read this.


----------



## neroden

me_little_me said:


> I have found days where you can't get a sleeper room at all so it's not just 3 days a week that suppresses travel. It's management.


Well, until recently there was also a shortage of sleeper cars. Why the new Viewliner sleepers have not been used to lengthen the Cardinal, the Lake Shore Limited, and the Crescent... well, I'm not sure but rumor has it that it's a staff shortage. :sigh:


----------



## nti1094

Ryan said:


> I would imagine that the engineers that have actual knowledge of the structure how it failed would be a better source of how hard engineering a fix would be than a random person on the internet that doesn't have that knowledge.


Well three previous manufacturers had no problem doing it with the same basic car shell.


----------



## Ryan

Details are important.


----------



## PVD

It isn't usually whether or not you can fix a problem, it is whether you can fix it and still meet the design requirements as well as the time and monetary constraints of a given project/contract.


----------



## jis

nti1094 said:


> Well three previous manufacturers had no problem doing it with the same basic car shell.


Actually the problem this time around was the new lower weight requirments imposed by the new car standard together with the lack of experience of NS in building center sill-less cars.

Eventually all manufacturers will be able to build cars to the new standard and indeed one could speculate that had Alstom gotten that contract they might have fared better due to their extensive experience in building sill-less cars.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Dakota 400 said:


> Having been a passenger on the Crescent from New York to New Orleans and one on the Silver Meteor to and from Washington and Fort Lauderdale, I see no reason to remove the in-room commode/lavatory in the Roomettes in the Viewliners I. For my first trip, which was on the Crescent, such an arrangement does take a bit of an adjustment for the guest with their first time in a Roomette. Having the commode within my space during the night during my recent Silver Meteor trip was something that I really appreciated. I had learned the "logistics" of how to use the facility without the issues that I first experienced on the Crescent. Experience is a great thing! My suggestion, has I previously have posted, is that at least some of the Viewliner 1 need to be renovated in the interior because of cosmetic details. For example: the space holding the toilet paper showed signs of glue around the container to hold it in place and surfaces on the doors and elsewhere showed much wear. Very minor in my opinion, to be sure.
> 
> If the in-room commode/lavatory is removed from the Roomette, installing only one will not be adequate as a replacement. Even on the Superliner Sleepers, I have found all of the restrooms to be occupied when I wanted to use one.


So true! And with the general use commode, sanitation becomes an issue if the attendant does not keep it clean. What you said means everything to many of us... convenience and cleanliness!


----------



## PVD

It is two units for the roomettes in the VL2. a one to six ratio is more than reasonable. I personally like the in room toilet, but am almost always traveling solo. It has been discussed to death on this forum, with very deep divisions. surveys before building as well as maintenance issues came out in favor of not having them. I'll miss them, but I don't think I'm in the majority.


----------



## jis

Interestingly, AFAIR the old 10-6s, which are the closest in layout philosophy to the current 12-3 or 11-3 Viewliners still had a common facility in each car. So in that sense the new 3-11s are more aligned with the 10-6s, though I suppose facility in each room and a common facility may have been the past norm. I don;t recall if the 10-6s were all uniform in that respect.


----------



## RPC

This drawing is actually not typical of the Amtrak 10-6s I rode. Those had the two-chair bedrooms alternating with the couch bedrooms so they could be combined into a suite. Also, some did have a separate toilet for the roomettes and some had an extended length handicapped roomette instead.


----------



## jis

I guess I was not so much worried about specific details of the 6. I was wondering if all had at least one common facility in them. I know there were many variations in the details of the individual rooms. That is not new information. Each railroad had slight variations to suite their taste, and some railroads didn;t even use standard 10-6s too much, the Southern being one of them. The Southern also did not use Slumbercoaches of any sort as far as I can tell, while others had many variations of Slumbercoaches.


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> So true! And with the general use commode, sanitation becomes an issue if the attendant does not keep it clean. What you said means everything to many of us... convenience and cleanliness!


That's a management issue, much more easily fixed if management ever decides to enforce standards on their trains. The SLA is required to keep them clean. That doesn't men they are cleaned but it does mean that management can make them clean it or hire cleaners for trains.
Here are some alternatives:

SLAs are required to clean the shared bathrooms and showers on a regular basis and document their work (ala fast food places that make the cleaner sign and note time). A phone number is posted in the room for a passenger to call if the room is not clean.
Same as above but frequent and random inspections by inspectors who may board at any station and check all bathrooms and showers for cleanliness unannounced in lieu of writing date/time and having phone number posted then documenting issues. This is similar to gas stations in the past where paid inspectors would stop at company's stations and inspect them as they drove around.
At periodic stops, someone comes aboard to clean the bathrooms and departs at the next station (to possibly return via cab/uber) thus taking the majority of the cleaning work off the SLA. In turn, the SLA must perform other actions on board.
A person who is designated "Train Services Manager" rides the train as crew member and has comparable power to the conductor but only for customer services only i.e. they are a manager with the capability of making management decisions about service, compensation for issues, arranging alternatives for potential missed connections, customer complaint resolution, etc.
Of course, Amtrak management has to care enough to do something so this is probably a lost cause.


----------



## PVD

Maybe I've been lucky, but on my many Superliner trips I have rarely encountered bad bathrooms, except occasionally the upstairs one in the middle of the night. But it was always cleaned first thing in the AM. Coaches I've ridden in regionals have been a different story.


----------



## me_little_me

PVD said:


> Maybe I've been lucky, but on my many Superliner trips I have rarely encountered bad bathrooms, except occasionally the upstairs one in the middle of the night. But it was always cleaned first thing in the AM. Coaches I've ridden in regionals have been a different story.


That has been our experience. Difference between a few people using 3 bathrooms vs a lot of people using only two as well as the attitude of the car attendant. If I found a bathroom dirty in the sleeper more than once, that would DRAMATICALLY affect my tip for the SCA. I can accept once because it is possible that some pig used it just after it was cleaned.

Coach on LD is as bad as coach on regionals as far as dirty bathrooms are concerned.


----------



## Cal

me_little_me said:


> Coach on LD is as bad as coach on regionals as far as dirty bathrooms are concerned.


Yep. On my ride on the Cardinal the bathroom in the coach wasn't great, however not terrible. From my experience on the Cardinal, I find the general atmosphere on Western trains better. Of course I've only ever had one ride on an Eastern train and it probably varies by crew, but that's just my limited experience.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Modern Travel Plaza “Loves” has a three button rate our bathroom display. The employees have a set of buttons that will log them into and out of cleaning of the restroom. Management can see the conditions before and after the employees clean the restroom. Is it perfect no, but it a way to keep tabs on the restroom from afar.


----------



## MARC Rider

On my 2012 coach trip on the Silver Star, they had cleaning logs posted on the restroom foors. Cleanest restrooms I ever saw on Amtrak, even in the middle of the night.

On the other hand, a sold-out southbound trip in 2010 on the Vermonter, after we left New York, the reek from the redtrooms was noticeable halway up the coach. They really should hire a cleaning crew in New Haven to do a quick swabbing of the restrooms while they're changing the engines.


----------



## StanJazz

I have a ticket for the Cardinal for next year. While picking my accommodations Amtrak stated that there was a toilet in the car. They don't say the toilet is in the room like they used to. While that sounds like a V2 they probably state that so they can use which sleeper is available when they make up the train. Most likely it will be a V1.


----------



## PVD

Ultimately, there are 50 VL1 that aren't going away, and 25 VL2 sleepers. Hopefully, money will be available to refresh or better yet, overhaul the VL1...


----------



## PerRock

I thought that was part of the VL2 plan? The company making the interior compartments was going to make enough to convert the VL1 fleet as well.

peter


----------



## jis

PerRock said:


> I thought that was part of the VL2 plan? The company making the interior compartments was going to make enough to convert the VL1 fleet as well.
> 
> peter


That part of the plan is currently on hold.


----------



## PVD

RailPlan I believe made the original modules, as well as the VL2 and certainly could produce them, but as pointed out above, that is on hold. It is a great deal of work for minimum gain, unless the cars were also going to receive a complete overhaul.


----------



## me_little_me

PVD said:


> RailPlan I believe made the original modules, as well as the VL2 and certainly could produce them, but as pointed out above, that is on hold. It is a great deal of work for minimum gain, unless the cars were also going to receive a complete overhaul.


Replacing all the rooms would be a complete overhaul since the wiring, plumbing and A/C would probably all have to change. That leaves the trucks, windows and frame. Would make sense to fix any issues with the rest of the car at the same time.


----------



## daybeers

jis said:


> That part of the plan is currently on hold.


One could also say it's _temporarily suspended_.


----------



## jis

It was more of a dream than a concrete plan. It was never ever funded or initiated in any way.


----------



## BBoy

Don't mean to switch gears here.....
Last week my brother and I took a trip on AMTK # 97 and # 98 from NYP to MIA.
Noticed on these consists (along with 19/20 ; 51/50 and 49/48) that they running with only 2 amfleet ll coach cars.
Anyone hear why?
Where are the rest of the coaches being stored?
During the height of covid I saw them in JAX.
I'm sure that puts a hurt on the one TA working both coaches.


----------



## OBS

BBoy said:


> Don't mean to switch gears here.....
> Last week my brother and I took a trip on AMTK # 97 and # 98 from NYP to MIA.
> Noticed on these consists (along with 19/20 ; 51/50 and 49/48) that they running with only 2 amfleet ll coach cars.
> Anyone hear why?
> Where are the rest of the coaches being stored?
> During the height of covid I saw them in JAX.
> I'm sure that puts a hurt on the one TA working both coaches.


My guess is it is shoulder season, with summer travel over, and too early for Snow Birds and Holiday travelers, so demand isn't there. One TA always works two coaches. When they have to work 3-4 coaches is when it gets a little excessive...


----------



## Cal

They’ve been running with two coaches since they went back to daily IRCC. Isn’t due to an amfleet II shortage because they’re being used on Illinois routes and differed maintenance? It’s what I’ve heard anyway.


----------



## Deni

I've been scrolling through the old posts in the thread looking for info about the VL2 sleepers on the LSL. So they are running on the New York section but not the Boston section? Do I have that right? I'm looking at a December trip so trying to find out.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Yes one VLII is currently on the NY LSL. It should be the 12 car.


----------



## Deni

AmtrakBlue said:


> Yes one VLII is currently on the NY LSL. It should be the 12 car.


Thanks for the info! Unfortunately we're going to Springfield, MA so no chance at that car.


----------



## PVD

That puts 15 out of 25 on the road. not sure what the shop margin target is, so we are almost there.....lots of combos possible....


----------



## jis

I think they could go upto 19/20 on the road, so maybe one for the Crescent makes sense.

Meanwhile they need to service and restore the VL1s that have been replaced by VL2s and then assign them back to the trains they were removed from to enhance Sleeper capacity on those trains. But of course that is tied in with the latest convenient excuse of "no staff" to resolve itself somehow. The full complement of Coaches also need to be restored of course, but again it crashes into the shoals of insufficient mechanical staff. Sigh...


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Yes Sigh…


----------



## PVD

jis said:


> I think they could go upto 19/20 on the road, so maybe one for the Crescent makes sense.
> 
> Meanwhile they need to service and restore the VL1s that have been replaced by VL2s and then assign them back to the trains they were removed from to enhance Sleeper capacity on those trains. But of course that is tied in with the latest convenient excuse of "no staff" to resolve itself somehow. The full complement of Coaches also need to be restored of course, but again it crashes into the shoals of insufficient mechanical staff. Sigh...


depending on shop margin requirements, you could put 1 on the cardinal and LSL Boston, which would put 20 on the road...of course you are correct regarding the VL1...


----------



## Brian Battuello

Deni said:


> Thanks for the info! Unfortunately we're going to Springfield, MA so no chance at that car.


Just buy a 48 ticket to Albany, and a business class to Springfield. Gets you 90% of the way there. But no guarantee of what car you'll get.


----------



## Oreius

I recently rode on the Silver Star from Philadelphia to Kissimmee, FL. I was in a Viewliner 1 Sleeper; the second one was a new Viewliner 2. It seems to me the Viewliner 1 cars are pretty much on their last legs. The power outlets in my bedroom could not hold my charging plug, unless I positioned it right. There was also duct tape holding the partition (which can be removed to make the 2 Bedrooms a suite) to the wall. I'm wondering if it was to keep the door from rattling. Also, it seems the VL1's give a rough ride when compared to the new VL2 diner on the train. I checked out the VL2 onboard, and it looked very nice. The Roomettes don't have the toilet, but still have a sink. I used the "community toilet" down the hall and found it to be comfortable. The community shower also seemed nice. My sleeper was No. 62044. I am taking 98 in March, and 91 again next May.


----------



## Cal

Oreius said:


> I recently rode on the Silver Star from Philadelphia to Kissimmee, FL. I was in a Viewliner 1 Sleeper; the second one was a new Viewliner 2. It seems to me the Viewliner 1 cars are pretty much on their last legs. The power outlets in my bedroom could not hold my charging plug, unless I positioned it right. There was also duct tape holding the partition (which can be removed to make the 2 Bedrooms a suite) to the wall. I'm wondering if it was to keep the door from rattling. Also, it seems the VL1's give a rough ride when compared to the new VL2 diner on the train. I checked out the VL2 onboard, and it looked very nice. The Roomettes don't have the toilet, but still have a sink. I used the "community toilet" down the hall and found it to be comfortable. The community shower also seemed nice. My sleeper was No. 62044. I am taking 98 in March, and 91 again next May.


Well, in that case, superliners have been "near the end" for a _long _time. 

They will continue to serve until they literally cannot operate them or replacements come to cover all the VI's, which is many years away. 


Edit: When I went to click "post reply" it said the thread wasn't found! Someone moved it to here, lol.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Here’s a nice benefit of not having the toilet in a roomette. Suitcase fits under the step. Much easier than trying to get it up in the cubby.


----------



## me_little_me

AmtrakBlue said:


> Here’s a nice benefit of not having the toilet in a roomette. Suitcase fits under the step. Much easier than trying to get it up in the cubby.
> View attachment 24914


You're using the luggage to replace the toilet? Ugh!


----------



## 87YJ

Oreius & AmtrakBlue
Nice pics! Thanks!


----------



## Cal

AmtrakBlue said:


> Here’s a nice benefit of not having the toilet in a roomette. Suitcase fits under the step. Much easier than trying to get it up in the cubby.
> View attachment 24914


I'd take that over the toilet any day.


----------



## joelkfla

Looks like both sleepers on the southbound 91 that went thru Ashland this evening are VL II's.


----------



## joelkfla

And the 98 that left Miami 10/15 had 1 VL II followed by 2 VL I's.


----------



## jis

joelkfla said:


> And the 98 that left Miami 10/15 had 1 VL II followed by 2 VL I's.


Well of course! The other VLII is now on 92 

Goes to show there are no guarantees in life


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Well of course! The other VLII is now on 92
> 
> Goes to show there are no guarantees in life


Not sure I quite follow the timing, but yeah ...

Today's 91 is back to normal.


----------



## IndyLions

…and on this evening’s (10/16) Cardinal #50 they were using a VLII as a crew dorm. I guess that frees up a few rooms in the VLI for revenue service - and from what I could tell our VLI was pretty full leaving CHI.

Now if they would just permanently allocate this car and another VLII for the Card’s 2nd set this would double sleeper capacity on the route.


----------



## Cal

IndyLions said:


> …and on this evening’s (10/16) Cardinal #50 they were using a VLII as a crew dorm.


A full sleeper or the bag-dorm?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

IndyLions said:


> …and on this evening’s (10/16) Cardinal #50 they were using a VLII as a crew dorm. I guess that frees up a few rooms in the VLI for revenue service - and from what I could tell our VLI was pretty full leaving CHI.
> 
> Now if they would just permanently allocate this car and another VLII for the Card’s 2nd set this would double sleeper capacity on the route.


It has had the new bagdorm since those came out a year or two ago.


----------



## IndyLions

AmtrakBlue said:


> It has had the new bagdorm since those came out a year or two ago.


Doh! Homer Simpson moment on my part


----------



## Exvalley

I have a trip on the LSL coming up in a couple of days. As a solo traveler, I was REALLY debating between whether or not to switch my reservation to the 4912 car in the hope of getting a roomette in a Viewliner II. I am currently booked in an odd number roomette in 4911. Since I am solo, I liked the idea of having the toilet in the room - and the odd number roomettes have the toilet toward the front, which means that I can sit in the seat that doesn't abut the toilet and face forward. The major downside is that my roomette is not on the Hudson river side of the train. I was planning on spending some time in the dining car in order to get those views.

I finally decided to bite the bullet and ask for an even number roomette in the 4912 car. The agent checked, but they are all sold out. I'm not terribly upset, since I was really on the fence to begin with.

One question: How much more spacious is the shower in the Viewliner II? I don't really have a problem with the shower in the Viewliner I, but I thought that I might be interesting to check out the shower in the Viewliner II.


----------



## IndyLions

Exvalley said:


> One question: How much more spacious is the shower in the Viewliner II? I don't really have a problem with the shower in the Viewliner I, but I thought that I might be interesting to check out the shower in the Viewliner II.



It’s not a comparere’s my complete review of the shower with a bunch of pictures:





__





Sleeper 9712...Wow!


They have one on the Superliner Transdorms but still hang out in the Diner!🤬 Interesting... and apparently the powers that be don't mind how that appears. I'm only familiar with the Auto Train though, having not been on anything else.




www.amtraktrains.com





…and here’s a sketch of the inside of the shower with dimensions.



IndyLions said:


> ...and for those interested in the dimensions of the Public Shower itself - here is a drawing
> 
> View attachment 21422


----------



## PVD

It is still a single module space, so if you make the shower a bit larger by changing the shape, there is likely a bit less "standing/changing room. That being said, the appearance and overall utilization of the space seems much nicer...


----------



## joelkfla

IndyLions said:


> It’s not a comparere’s my complete review of the shower with a bunch of pictures:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sleeper 9712...Wow!
> 
> 
> They have one on the Superliner Transdorms but still hang out in the Diner!🤬 Interesting... and apparently the powers that be don't mind how that appears. I'm only familiar with the Auto Train though, having not been on anything else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.amtraktrains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …and here’s a sketch of the inside of the shower with dimensions.


It would be nice if the dressing seat were available as a seat rather than a towel rack. Some of us oldsters have a hard time getting dressed without a seat.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Exvalley said:


> I finally decided to bite the bullet and ask for an odd number roomette in the 4912 car. The agent checked, but they are all sold out. I'm not terribly upset, since I was really on the fence to begin with.


Why wouldn't you ask for an even number on the 4912 so you're on the Hudson River side?


----------



## Exvalley

AmtrakBlue said:


> Why wouldn't you ask for an even number on the 4912 so you're on the Hudson River side?


Whoops. That was a typo. I asked for an even number roomette.


----------



## Exvalley

IndyLions said:


> my complete review of the shower with a bunch of pictures:


That was very helpful, thank you. I definitely want to check it out even if I am in the 4911 car.


----------



## IndyLions

joelkfla said:


> It would be nice if the dressing seat were available as a seat rather than a towel rack. Some of us oldsters have a hard time getting dressed without a seat.





It would also be nice if the towel rack were used as say… a towel rack. Instead, its current function seems to be that of a micro dust collector.


----------



## JP1822

Amtrak has been exchanging a V2 Sleeper for a V1 Sleeper, thus not putting forth any "net gain" in the Viewliner Sleepers running in single level LD consists. The "plan" that Boardman rolled out when putting forth this order, does not seem like the "plan" that current Amgrak management is embracing - perhaps it is crew/staff related, not sure. But the facts are the fact as of now. The Viewliner I Sleepers have not aged well at all, and all need serious refurb. There had been an announcement that the Viewliner I Sleeper would receive an overhaul, but not the major overhaul as originally intended that would have "matched" them to a V2 Sleeper. Not sure why Amtrak couldn't de-commission the roomette toilets, and then install the two communal bathrooms that's now the attendant's room in the Viewliner I's. They are modular units, so couldn't that at least work? Those two changes alone, with an overhaul, would bring it close to what a V2 Sleeper looks like. A total re-model to match the V2 is a bit more complexing. 

What I find MOST concerning is that current Amtrak management has made absolutely NO mention of how the V2 Sleepers and V1 Sleepers would be deployed to maximum use. Again, except for the two Viewliner sleepers restored to overnight NEC service, its just been a one for one exchange, meaning more Viewliner 1 Sleepers heading to storage. Lets be honest. They have not been getting any refurb to date, and typically Amtrak would only refurb about 3 (maybe 5 max at a time). With 75 Viewliner Sleepers between V1 and V2, there's PLENTY for spares AND for adding/augmenting additional single level LD consists. I truly think that if Amtrak could EASILY find six low density single level coaches (via an Amfleet II or adjustments to a Amfleet I) that they would convert the Capitol Limited BACK to a single level consist so as to have more Superliners for the Western Long Hauls. That would likely get six more Viewliner Sleepers deployed. 

So yet again, the utilization and deployment of the Viewliner Sleepers remain a complete mystery on a go-forward basis - or as of now. And the V2's are brand new cars. All 25 should be deployed. If they need to "shop" one, replace it with a Viewliner I. It would not make a difference, as the Viewliner I's actually have one additional roomette in the inventory pool for sale (over a V2). 

The Viewliner Baggage/Dorm cars - 2 are on the Cardinal, and I think the Crescent consists have them - so that's a total of 6 being utilized out of the 10. On one of my Lake Shore journeys, a Viewliner Bagg/Dorm had been put on the NYC section, and had they been deployed to all Lake Shore Limited consists, that would have made sense with 9 out of 10 deployed. Leaving one of these BRAND NEW cars for substituting at NYP where all Viewliners intersect would not be that terrible, and if needed - a Viewliner I could sub. 

So again, the Viewliner Sleeper deployment doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Amtrak recently had a graduating class of onboard service attendants. I know labor is tough right now. But the fact that management has also been tight lipped about future plans of Viewliner Sleepers - odd.......at best. The plan could be to leave the current Viewliner utilization in place, and retire those Viewliner I's that Amtrak feels are in the worst condition. But that'd be a tragedy considering current demand for high-priced sleepers.


----------



## Steve4031

Maybe the plan going forward is fleet standardization with Siemens coaches, diners and sleepers. For all long distance trains.


----------



## John819

I suspect that the plan will be to convert all trains to single level Siemens equipment. Of course, the LD conversions could not start until the corridor train sets are completed, which means 2025 or so.


----------



## jis

Western LD conversion to new equipment will be well after 2025, perhaps starting around 2028 (orders placed in 2025). Eastern Single Level LDs OTOH, just require new LD Coaches, which could happen as a quick add-on to the Amfleet I replacement order currently in progress. Of course for LD trains they will be single individual cars and not train sets, and the furnishing will be different. So conversion of Eastern Single Level LD trains could be pretty much in place by 2030.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Western LD conversion to new equipment will be well after 2025, perhaps starting around 2028 (orders placed in 2025). Eastern Single Level LDs OTOH, just require new LD Coaches, which could happen as a quick add-on to the Amfleet I replacement order currently in progress. Of course for LD trains they will be single individual cars and not train sets, and the furnishing will be different. So conversion of Eastern Single Level LD trains could be pretty much in place by 2030.


New cafe / lounge cars are also needed for the eastern trains. (Have been needed for a long time.) Could also be added on to the same order for the Amfleet I replacement, of course. And frankly more sleeping cars are needed for the eastern trains, based on demand.


----------



## PVD

Keep in mind that modular is not as easy as it sounds, since the modules can only be removed through one plug, which means removing a whole slew of modules before you could replace one further up the line.


----------



## NES28

John819 said:


> I suspect that the plan will be to convert all trains to single level Siemens equipment. Of course, the LD conversions could not start until the corridor train sets are completed, which means 2025 or so.


I agree that this is likely to happen, due to the need to meet ADA. The upside is that there will be the potential to have the same fleet serve all LD trains in the east and west for the first time since before the Santa Fe El Cap cars. But there need to be "feature cars", some sort of sightseer dome car to add zest to rail travel.


----------



## neroden

NES28 said:


> I agree that this is likely to happen, due to the need to meet ADA. The upside is that there will be the potential to have the same fleet serve all LD trains in the east and west for the first time since before the Santa Fe El Cap cars. But there need to be "feature cars", some sort of sightseer dome car to add zest to rail travel.



It really would not be that hard to design a single-level glasstop, with a top similar to the Superliner lounge cars.


----------



## JP1822

Rocky Mountaineer already has single level "viewing cars" dubbed Silver Leaf Class. VIA Rail Canada also has the "Panorama Cars" that were made by Colorado Rail Car that could also be duplicated to some degree. So the model is there for a good single level "viewing car" that could also double as a cafe car (cafe up near one of the vestibules). 

I don't doubt that Amtrak could potentially move back to all single level consists - corridor and long distance - replacing the bi-level Superliner cars with single level consists. But I really can't see how the single level cars are more "ADA friendly" than the Superliners, and that's coming from someone who struggles with mobility. The bi-level cars are more "efficient" with space being used though........


----------



## neroden

The real thing killing the Superliner-style bilevels is the manufacturing failure at Sumitomo/Nippon-Sharyo, which has some complex history which I heard something about at an RPA meeting. (Apparently the way they were made in the 1970s violates EPA regulations, and the replacement method... didn't give enough strength.) But the manufacturing failure, by a reputable company which thought it could do it, means no reputable manufacturer wants to touch a contract to build them. If nobody will take on the construction contract for bilevels, Amtrak should not tilt at windmills.

Here's where the ADA comes in: fully ADA-compliant intercity bilevels, while possible (as Alaska Railroad proved), eat up a LOT of the supposedly-more-efficient space use with wide, straight staircases and a wheelchair lift. Once you've installed all of that, the space advantage of bilevels over single-levels practically disappears.

So bilevels stop making sense, unless you're doing it for pure tourism reasons (which both Alaska Railroad and Rocky Mountaineer were). I honestly think the only route which really benefits significantly from the extra viewing height is the California Zephyr; the other routes would be just as scenic viewed from Viewliner height.


----------



## joelkfla

JP1822 said:


> But I really can't see how the single level cars are more "ADA friendly" than the Superliners, and that's coming from someone who struggles with mobility. The bi-level cars are more "efficient" with space being used though........


In the current fleet, anyone in a wheelchair, and anyone who has difficulty with steps, is restricted to the lower level of their own Superliner car. In the single level cars, one accessible sleeper room has wheelchair access to the dining car. Persons who have trouble with steps but are able to walk short to moderate distances can access any car in a single level consist that's within their walking capability.

Amtrak's loading gauge may make fully accessible roll-thru sleeper cars impractical because of the corridor width and the transition from door to corridor, but future single level coaches, diners, and lounges can be built with aisles wide enough to allow a wheelchair to roll through.


----------



## neroden

joelkfla said:


> Amtrak's loading gauge may make fully accessible roll-thru sleeper cars impractical because of the corridor width and the transition from door to corridor, but future single level coaches, diners, and lounges can be built with aisles wide enough to allow a wheelchair to roll through.



I know people who use narrow wheelchairs, and they can be available as a specialty item for situations like this; if the right-angle turns in the corridor can be eliminated (as they were in the Viewliner II dining cars where the corridor wraps around the kitchen, in favor of 45 degree turns) the sleepers could still be roll-thru for a lot of people, even with the narrow corridors.


----------



## JP1822

joelkfla said:


> In the current fleet, anyone in a wheelchair, and anyone who has difficulty with steps, is restricted to the lower level of their own Superliner car. In the single level cars, one accessible sleeper room has wheelchair access to the dining car. Persons who have trouble with steps but are able to walk short to moderate distances can access any car in a single level consist that's within their walking capability.
> 
> Amtrak's loading gauge may make fully accessible roll-thru sleeper cars impractical because of the corridor width and the transition from door to corridor, but future single level coaches, diners, and lounges can be built with aisles wide enough to allow a wheelchair to roll through.



First of all, you missed quoting my beginning sentence where I acknowledged the fact that I do believe that Amtrak will likely go ahead with single level cars in any new order of LD cars. So I think we share that common thinking. Secondly, I am perfectly aware of the limitations that MAY come with an ADA room on the lower level of a Superliner, and also the limitations that exist when trying to get between say a handicap room in the Viewliner Sleeper, to the Viewliner Diner. Even if in the ADA room closest to the Viewliner Diner, it is VERY difficult to impossible getting a wheel chair from ADA room through the vestibules and into the Viewliner Diner. And if one is booked "one sleeper away" from the Diner - forget it. So often, even a Viewliner ADA room - one is taking meals in their room and not getting to the Viewliner Diner. Been there tried that. So having a wheelchair and trying to get from ADA room to the Diner while still remaining in the wheel chair - I've never been able to master that one. 

I had limited mobility for six years and thankfully was able to have improved mobility where I don't require a wheel chair on the train. But it is convenient to have the ADA room of a Viewliner sleeper NEXT to the Viewliner Diner. With a Superliner Sleeper, I prefer to take a bedroom on the upper deck (B or C) over the ADA room. I do the stairs on initial boarding and getting off the train only. Then while on the train, I just maneuver from bedroom to the Diner, and get the sleeper that is CLOSEST to the Diner. I can even get to the Sightseer Car on a good day, adjacent to the Diner. 

This has been my experience. Each person with disabilities may have their own experience. But I do believe improvements will likely come - and this will also be best with single level cars of some sort. Not trying to be disrespectful in any way - just giving my perspective from my experience. And again, not to be disrespectful, but I've never seen a person in the Viewliner Diner with a wheel chair.


----------



## pennyk

JP1822 said:


> And again, not to be disrespectful, but I've never seen a person in the Viewliner Diner with a wheel chair.



I travel on the Silver Meteor quite often and although it is not common, I have seen passengers in wheelchairs in the Dining Car.


----------



## 87YJ

Being I live with a wife in one(chair), they come in all sizes to fit people of all sizes.


----------



## Amtrak25

If they go back to low-level out west, they could reinvent the dome car. Likely Alstom has Budd's patents, via Bombardier.


----------



## Gemuser

Amtrak25 said:


> If they go back to low-level out west, they could reinvent the dome car. Likely Alstom has Budd's patents, via Bombardier.


 This brings up an interesting point: Are the Budd patents still in force. Internationally patents expire after a fixed number of years, what is the todays situation?


----------



## jis

Gemuser said:


> This brings up an interesting point: Are the Budd patents still in force. Internationally patents expire after a fixed number of years, what is the todays situation?


No. All those patents have expired long back.


----------



## west point

Agree about patents. However what about copy right items such as equipment drawings. Someone have an answer?


----------



## John819

Copyright lasts for a minimum of 70 years from the author's death (and is likely to be extended to protect Mickey Mouse).


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Agree about patents. However what about copy right items such as equipment drawings. Someone have an answer?


Copyrights on creations after 1978 for all practical purposes do not expire in ones lifetime + 70, 95 or 120 years depending on the nature of the authorship. But trying to protect implementation of designs based on copyrights of design documents or even lines of code is hard, as the UNIX folks at AT&T learned over many years.

Anyway, the rules get complicated if the original creation was prior to 1978. See https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ15a.pdf

Just for the kicks here is a pointer to the original 1953 Budd patent on the full length dome car:



US2633090A - Full-length dome or double-deck railway car with normal-height end doors - Google Patents



As noted, it expired in 1970.

Just for kicks, here is the original sill-less bi-level car patent:



US2946295A - Double-deck railway car structure - Google Patents



expired in 1977.

Here is the what one could call Roomette patent.



US2724347A - Bedroom accommodations for passenger vehicles - Google Patents



expired in 1972

And the Slumbercoach patent...



US2914001A - High capacity private compartment passenger vehicle - Google Patents



expired in 1976.

There are literally dozens of other relevant patents, but they all expired in the 70s.

The set of laws related to trade secrets is the one that is most effective in protecting well ... trade secrets. For example, all the design documents won't help you build something if it involves a special welding technique that you keep as a trade secret.

Anyway, this is getting perilously close to being off topic for this thread. 

If there is further interest in exploring Patents, Copyrights and Trade Secrets related laws and such, I suggest that we move this to a new thread in the Lounge.


----------



## DSS&A

Yes, the Nippon Sharyo had a bi-level that failed the crush test, but it is important to remember that the contract specifications a new car with less weight. 

Remember that the states had to change their car spacification to allow a heavier weight single-level car so that they could buy the Seimens Venture cars as a substitute for the NS bi-levels. 
If it is decided to buy more bilevels, Amtrak will need to allow the cars to be a little heavier to strengthen the car frame to meet the crush load requirement. 

Single-level cars will lengthen trains and require trains to make more double and some triple train-spots at more stations. This will add running time to some of the train schedules.


----------



## DCAKen

MikefromCrete said:


> Trains News Wire is reporting that Amtrak will begin assigning Viewliner II sleepers to New York section of Lake Shore Limited.


I have a ticket on the LSL in March and wanted to change my roomette to the VII sleeper, which is supposed to be car 12. However, the agent reported that there is no car 4812 on the train on that date.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

DCAKen said:


> I have a ticket on the LSL in March and wanted to change my roomette to the VII sleeper, which is supposed to be car 12. However, the agent reported that there is no car 4812 on the train on that date.


 I rode 4812 in October. It was the new car.


----------



## joelkfla

DSS&A said:


> Single-level cars will lengthen trains and require trains to make more double and some triple train-spots at more stations. This will add running time to some of the train schedules.


Since there is not the issue of lower-level baggage racks and dragging bags up the stairs, couldn't they board all the coach passengers at whatever cars fit on the platform, and have them walk thru the train? Especially if the cars have accessible-width aisles like the Brightline Ventures.


----------



## Cal

joelkfla said:


> Since there is not the issue of lower-level baggage racks and dragging bags up the stairs, couldn't they board all the coach passengers at whatever cars fit on the platform, and have them walk thru the train? Especially if the cars have accessible-width aisles like the Brightline Ventures.


Of course they could, but that'd be very painful. What about a stop late at night or early in the morning while many are asleep? And in sleeper cars where the aisle is very tight? I wouldn't want to hear people trying to get luggage through there.


----------



## cocojacoby

DSS&A said:


> Yes, the Nippon Sharyo had a bi-level that failed the crush test, but it is important to remember that the contract specifications a new car with less weight.



If I recall the cars failed at 798,000 lbs pressure. So they were at 99.75% of the requirement. Hard to believe NS couldn't resolve the issue or maybe even received an exemption since the test was so very close, but we all know what happened. I can't find any information on the NS car test but here is a really detailed report on the test itself for anyone interested.



https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/17425/Passenger%20Car%20Crippling%20End-Load%20Test%20and%20Analyses.pdf


----------



## Ziv

Conductors already put people in cars that the conductors want them to be in, so why not spot the passengers and then the train accordingly?



Cal said:


> Of course they could, but that'd be very painful. What about a stop late at night or early in the morning while many are asleep? And in sleeper cars where the aisle is very tight? I wouldn't want to hear people trying to get luggage through there.


----------



## PVD

Why would you waive along standing requirement? It's not like it was an unknown. Once you start making exceptions for no good reason all you do is open the door for the lawyers, whether it is in accidents or from companies asking for the same consideration. There is no doubt the issues could be resolved, but the cost of doing it may have been high enough to make it cheaper to cut and run.


----------



## me_little_me

Amtrak can't or won't consistently put cars in the same place on the train.

Amtrak won't put metal signs (A,, B, C...) indicating positions on the platform and electronic signs at most stations that tell people which metal sign to wait by based on where Amtrak wants them to stand even at many manned stations much less unmanned ones.

Amtrak won't send text messages to passengers to tell them which metal sign to stand by.

Amtrak is still living in the 19th century.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

me_little_me said:


> Amtrak can't or won't consistently put cars in the same place on the train.
> 
> Amtrak won't put metal signs (A,, B, C...) indicating positions on the platform and electronic signs at most stations that tell people which metal sign to wait by based on where Amtrak wants them to stand even at many manned stations much less unmanned ones.
> 
> Amtrak won't send text messages to passengers to tell them which metal sign to stand by.
> 
> Amtrak is still living in the 19th century.


I recall traveling on the NEC there were "location" signs e.g. location A, B, etc. Back when they would split the train for Boston and Springfield location A for Springfield line passengers, other locations for Boston, the last one for club car / business class. So it has been done.


----------



## jis

Actually, the NER consists are pretty standard. They don't place random cars at random locations in the consist used for the NERs


----------



## Cal

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I recall traveling on the NEC there were "location" signs e.g. location A, B, etc. Back when they would split the train for Boston and Springfield location A for Springfield line passengers, other locations for Boston, the last one for club car / business class. So it has been done.


I recall seeing markers on the ground got Acela cars too…


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cal said:


> I recall seeing markers on the ground got Acela cars too…


Those showed up when they started assigning seats on the Acelas. I wouldn't be surprised if most passengers don't pay attention to them.


----------



## west point

Just like airline passengers do not read gate location signs. When anybody asks me take them to the nearest sign and make them read it, Get all kinds of reactions.

Sort of a repeat of the fish parable.


----------



## edolan

JP1822 said:


> Again, except for the two Viewliner sleepers restored to overnight NEC service, its just been a one for one exchange, meaning more Viewliner 1 Sleepers heading to storage. Lets be honest.



It’s looking like Amtrak will eventually extend the Vermonter back to Montreal... what if they were to use the new VLIIs for an overnight frequency across the WAS-Montreal route — brining back the Montrealer/Washingtonian. Just an idea but that would be quite a route to return. They could also run another version of that route on the NY side switching direction in NYP.


----------



## Steve4031

This is common practice in Japan and Europe.


----------



## jis

edolan said:


> It’s looking like Amtrak will eventually extend the Vermonter back to Montreal... what if they were to use the new VLIIs for an overnight frequency across the WAS-Montreal route — brining back the Montrealer/Washingtonian. Just an idea but that would be quite a route to return. They could also run another version of that route on the NY side switching direction in NYP.


That would be wonderful, but would be unlikely to get any funding from Vermont since all of it would be in Oh Dark Thirty. OTOH a daytime train as in extended Vermonter would be very much appreciated by all on the route.

Remember that the two Vermont trains (Ethan Allen and Vermoneter) are funded by the State of Vermont and the Adirondack is funded by NY State. They are unlikely to fund trains that call at the in state stations at inconvenient times.


----------



## joelkfla

Steve4031 said:


> This is common practice in Japan and Europe.


What is?


----------



## Mailliw

In order for the Montrealer to be revived Quebec would need be willing to replace Vermont's subsidies, but we can still dream.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Mailliw said:


> In order for the Montrealer to be revived Quebec would need be willing to replace Vermont's subsidies, but we can still dream.



Why would Quebec want to pay for a Montrealer? The daytime train is much more valuable to Vermont than any kind of overnight train would mean for Quebec.


----------



## me_little_me

MikefromCrete said:


> Why would Quebec want to pay for a Montrealer? The daytime train is much more valuable to Vermont than any kind of overnight train would mean for Quebec.


I'd take an overnight sleeper to Montreal. The daytime train is too long a ride end to end.


----------



## Mailliw

MikefromCrete said:


> Why would Quebec want to pay for a Montrealer? The daytime train is much more valuable to Vermont than any kind of overnight train would mean for Quebec.


A night train would better facilitate travel from NYC to Montreal (& vice versa) than a second daytime train.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Mailliw said:


> A night train would better facilitate travel from NYC to Montreal (& vice versa) than a second daytime train.


Who's talking about a second daytime train? My point is that a nighttime train would not receive support from Vermont if it causes the cancellation of the daytime train. Amtrak would have to pay for the full operation of a revived Montrealer. Quebec would certainly have no interest in subsidizing it. So a nighttime train would have to be a fully Amtrak supported LD train, something Amtrak has been extremely reluctant to do. Maybe under Amtrak's new funding, the company would be more bullish on such an effort. Time will tell. Of course, Vermont could continue to support a daytime Vermonter if it wanted.


----------



## me_little_me

MikefromCrete said:


> Who's talking about a second daytime train? My point is that a nighttime train would not receive support from Vermont if it causes the cancellation of the daytime train. Amtrak would have to pay for the full operation of a revived Montrealer. Quebec would certainly have no interest in subsidizing it. So a nighttime train would have to be a fully Amtrak supported LD train, something Amtrak has been extremely reluctant to do. Maybe under Amtrak's new funding, the company would be more bullish on such an effort. Time will tell. Of course, Vermont could continue to support a daytime Vermonter if it wanted.


Could such a train be daylight to Vermont and overnight after that to Montreal? I don't know the timing of such a trip. After all, the Vermonters think of themselves as "Progressives" so they should be willing to buy up some of the track sections and speed up the train to get better service in lieu of subsidizing the operation at a slower speed.


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> Could such a train be daylight to Vermont and overnight after that to Montreal? I don't know the timing of such a trip. After all, the Vermonters think of themselves as "Progressives" so they should be willing to buy up some of the track sections and speed up the train to get better service in lieu of subsidizing the operation at a slower speed.


Even without Vermont buying out any tracks, the journey time from St. Albans VT to Montreal PQ is somewhere between two and three hours. One would need to shorten the night by decree quite a lot to make it a daylight trip in Vermont and then overnight to Montreal.

For reference here is a link to the schedule of the Montrealer when it ran:

Timetable of the Montrealer and Adirondack in 1982


----------



## MARC Rider

The Montrealer overnight schedule actually worked pretty well in providing overnight service between Burlington (Essex Jct), Montpelier, and the NEC destinations. So there could be reason for Vermont to give at least some support for it. Of course, the current Vermonter daytime schedule provides better intrastate service, so I would think that having both trains would be best. If they want to make a day train to Montreal, having the Vermonter leave a little earlier would help ensure that it reaches the final destination before 10 PM.


----------



## pennyk

I saw Silver Meteor 98 pass through Orlando and it appeared that all 3 sleepers were V-2s.
Consist was 2 engines, 4 coaches, cafe, dining car, 3 sleepers and baggage. It was running about an hour late.

Edited to reflect the fact that the second sleeper was not a V-2. Sorry.


----------



## joelkfla

pennyk said:


> I saw Silver Meteor 98 pass through Orlando and it appeared that all 3 sleepers were V-2s.
> Consist was 2 engines, 4 coaches, cafe, dining car, 3 sleepers and baggage. It was running about an hour late.


Looking at the VRF Ashland railcam from 07:48 this morning, I think the 2nd sleeper was the VL I in VL II livery.

1st sleeper, behind diner at left edge of capture:



2nd sleeper: no skirting on undercarriage, and no missing window at rear, so looks like a VL I:



3rd sleeper:



BTW, it was 3 hours late at this point. It's down to about 2:15 late now.


----------



## jis

Yup. The second one looks like it is the New River, the one VL I that is in Phase III livery. The giveaway is the cable conduit on the roof IMHO.


----------



## pennyk

joelkfla said:


> Looking at the VRF Ashland railcam from 07:48 this morning, I think the 2nd sleeper was the VL I in VL II livery.
> 
> 1st sleeper, behind diner at left edge of capture:
> View attachment 26507
> 
> 
> 2nd sleeper: no skirting on undercarriage, and no missing window at rear, so looks like a VL I:
> View attachment 26508
> 
> 
> 3rd sleeper:
> View attachment 26509
> 
> 
> BTW, it was 3 hours late at this point. It's down to about 2:15 late now.


I guess my old eyes missed the details. Sorry for wrong information.


----------



## Steve4031

That information from Jishnu is helpful as always. My uneducated eyes wouldn’t have noticed the cable conduit.


----------



## pennyk

Steve4031 said:


> That information from Jishnu is helpful as always. My uneducated eyes wouldn’t have noticed the cable conduit.


I think for me, it was uneducated eyes, a hopeful brain and a moving train.


----------



## JC7648

Does anyone know if Viewliner II's are now the only sleeping cars on the NYC portion of the LSL now, or is it still one VI & one VII? Is there any way to request a VII when booking online, or do you have to call an agent?


----------



## jis

JC7648 said:


> Does anyone know if Viewliner II's are now the only sleeping cars on the NYC portion of the LSL now, or is it still one VI & one VII? Is there any way to request a VII when booking online, or do you have to call an agent?


Last time I checked the 12 cars is usually VL-II, 11 is VL-I. But of course things could have changed since then.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> Last time I checked the 12 cars is usually VL-II, 11 is VL-I. But of course things could have changed since then.


That's what they were on 48 passing the Lake Shore Railway Museum's railcam @7:56 this morning.


JC7648 said:


> Does anyone know if Viewliner II's are now the only sleeping cars on the NYC portion of the LSL now, or is it still one VI & one VII? Is there any way to request a VII when booking online, or do you have to call an agent?


You can call and specifically request car 12, or you can try your luck booking online and then call and request a modification if you get car 11.


----------



## lordsigma

Warning - some agents don’t know that you can change the sleeper/room assignment without re-pricing the trip as the process in arrow is convoluted.


----------



## JC7648

Thanks all, after considering, I think I'll just stick with coach seating on east coast to Chicago trains, unless its the Cap limited, if I ever do go on east coast night trains again.


----------



## drfonta

On the LSL NYP to CHI in late May. Roughly 4 hours after landing from a 12 hour flight from Asia. Going to try it and see how it works with the jet lag etc. (got approx 28 hours in Chicago before getting on the Zephyr to Emeryville. "Traincation.") Anyway, on the LSL I got 4911 room 2. Sounds like VL 1 most likely based on reports here. That's fine. Had the VL 2 roomette last year on the Meteor and loved it though.


----------



## SarahZ

JC7648 said:


> Does anyone know if Viewliner II's are now the only sleeping cars on the NYC portion of the LSL now, or is it still one VI & one VII?


Any word on the Boston section?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

SarahZ said:


> Any word on the Boston section?


I have not heard of any changes to the LSL, so it's probably still just one of the 2 NYC sleepers is a VLII.


----------



## joelkfla

SarahZ said:


> Any word on the Boston section?





AmtrakBlue said:


> I have not heard of any changes to the LSL, so it's probably still just one of the 2 NYC sleepers is a VLII.


Yes, the sleeper behind the engines, which I believe is the Boston one, was a VLI on both the eastbound & westbound trains thru Erie PA this morning.


----------



## JP1822

Lake Shore Limited:

- Boston Viewliner - is a Viewliner I
- NY Viewliner right behind the Sleeper Lounge (aka VIewliner Diner II) - is a Viewliner I (the 4911 or 4811 car)
- NY Viewliner at the far end - is a Viewliner II (the 4912 or 4812 car). 

Been that way since September 2021. 

I am a bit surprised they didn't go down to ONE NY Viewliner after Jan 17, but the two NY Viewliners help to add capacity for the disconnects, as the Capitol Limited is selling out prior to disconnects and not able to accommodate. A LOT of people were bumped to the Lake Shore that had to get to the East Coast, and originally booked on the Capitol Limited when trains were late or cancelled out of Chicago eastbound back in early January!


----------



## GAT

I'm on car 5000 on the Cardinal and car 1910 on the Crescent in mid-April. I'm presuming they are VL I's. Any chance VL II's will be on either train by mid-April?


----------



## jis

George said:


> I'm on car 5000 on the Cardinal and car 1910 on the Crescent in mid-April. I'm presuming they are VL I's. Any chance VL II's will be on either train by mid-April?


Quite unlikely.


----------



## GAT

jis said:


> Quite unlikely.


Oh snap! Anyway, I guess I'll survive. Thanks!


----------



## danlb_2000

I was looking at some videos of the Viewliner II roomettes and it looks like the storage cubby up on the wall is smaller then it was on the original cars, can anyone confirm this?


----------



## lordsigma

danlb_2000 said:


> I was looking at some videos of the Viewliner II roomettes and it looks like the storage cubby up on the wall is smaller then it was on the original cars, can anyone confirm this?



Seemed similar to me I am able to fit my bag in both.


----------



## jis

danlb_2000 said:


> I was looking at some videos of the Viewliner II roomettes and it looks like the storage cubby up on the wall is smaller then it was on the original cars, can anyone confirm this?


Yes. They are smaller.

I have a friend who has a bag that precisely fit in the VL-Is but does not in VL-IIs


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Yes. They are smaller.
> 
> I have a friend who has a bag that precisely fit in the VL-Is but does not in VL-IIs


Center of Excellence!


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Center of Excellence!


All this happened a decade before anyone even thought out the name of said center. It was early in the Boardman regime when these design choices of the new Sleeper modules were made.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> All this happened a decade before anyone even thought out the name of said center. It was early in the Boardman regime when these design choices of the new Sleeper modules were made.


So Joe and his team get the blame for this design mistake!


----------



## Dakota 400

jis said:


> Yes. They are smaller.
> 
> I have a friend who has a bag that precisely fit in the VL-Is but does not in VL-IIs



Another example of "change for the sake of change"? Somebody doing something to justify his employment?


----------



## jis

Dakota 400 said:


> Another example of "change for the sake of change"? Somebody doing something to justify his employment?


That depends. If one assumes that all the drawings of the previous version of the Roomette Modules were available in sufficient detail and were usable in the new design tooling that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, if only conceptual sketches were only available and the detail engineering design had to be done all over then it is not change of anything, it is doing it anew. Unfortunately I have seen a lot of that sort of thing happen because it was impossible to suck in the old designs completely into the new CAD/CAM tools. So one can never be sure why it happened the way it did unless someone does the requisite research to figure out.


----------



## joelkfla

jis said:


> That depends. If one assumes that all the drawings of the previous version of the Roomette Modules were available in sufficient detail and were usable in the new design tooling that would be a reasonable conclusion. However, if only conceptual sketches were only available and the detail engineering design had to be done all over then it is not change of anything, it is doing it anew. Unfortunately I have seen a lot of that sort of thing happen because it was impossible to suck in the old designs completely into the new CAD/CAM tools. So one can never be sure why it happened the way it did unless someone does the requisite research to figure out.


Just speculating: It's been said that the black strip down the center of the VL I's is a cable conduit, which the VL II's lack. Perhaps whatever was running thru there was moved below the roof, occupying some of the space above the corridor that was used by the luggage cubbies.


----------



## enviro5609

joelkfla said:


> Just speculating: It's been said that the black strip down the center of the VL I's is a cable conduit, which the VL II's lack. Perhaps whatever was running thru there was moved below the roof, occupying some of the space above the corridor that was used by the luggage cubbies.


While we are speculating… there also may be modifications to the shell design for modern safety and crush test specifications that take up some of the previously available space.


----------



## cocojacoby

joelkfla said:


> Just speculating: It's been said that the black strip down the center of the VL I's is a cable conduit, which the VL II's lack. Perhaps whatever was running thru there was moved below the roof, occupying some of the space above the corridor that was used by the luggage cubbies.


Are they not as high? Deep? Wide?


----------



## danlb_2000

cocojacoby said:


> Are they not as high? Deep? Wide?



They don't look as deep. Best shot I could get from a video.




Another interesting thing, is it looks like they don't all have the bar at the bottom..


----------



## west point

Conduit down the middle? More speculation ==== Possible potable water line(s) to slow freezing?


----------



## BBoy

Has Amtrak started pulling the V-1's out of service for refurbishment to look similar to the V-2's?


----------



## jis

BBoy said:


> Has Amtrak started pulling the V-1's out of service for refurbishment to look similar to the V-2's?


There is no current program to modify the Viewliner Is.


----------



## lordsigma

The ongoing Superliner refresh program includes “refreshing” the Viewliner 1s. In the five year plan document dump Amtrak put out yesterday it did indicate that the refresh will include some elements to make VL1s a bit more consistent with the new cars - possibly things like the seat cushions and maybe some other minor changes. It sounds like a decision has been made to also include retiring and replacing the Viewliner 1s and Superliner 2s in the Superliner 1 replacement program as part of an effort to make a more consistent fleet so the original planned VL1 modifications are likely out the door for good now. The one car type that still seems to be up in the air is Amfleet 2s. Part of the options for the new Siemens ICTs does include a program to replace the Amfleet 2s based on the Amfleet 1 program but they also could end up rolling it into the Superliner/VL1 program. They do plan on continuing to operate the newer VL2 cars with whatever new LD fleet is ordered.


----------



## Mailliw

In that case the VIs could still be used as crew dorms or modified to serve as bag dorms.


----------



## Dakota 400

Mailliw said:


> In that case the VIs could still be used as crew dorms or modified to serve as bag dorms.



That's a good idea regarding the bag dorms. Those could be used for the trains that currently have no Baggage Car.


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## John Santos

I think the VL II cubbies are longer but shallower than the VL I's. Most of the space above the corridor in the VL I's is shared by the two opposing roomettes. About half the length of each is cubby, and since the two roomettes are arranged head to tail, each gets half the length and the entire width (less the thickness of the wall) of that space.
I haven't ridden a VL II yet (maybe in May?!) but from the pictures, it looks like the VL II cubbies are longer (front-to-back) though not the full length of the roomette, but only half the width of the corridor. The two cubbies for opposing roomettes are back-to-back instead of side-by-side. This would make them only half as deep, and since they don't appear to extend the full length of the roomette, much less volume than the VL I's.

Since crumple zones seem to be an issue (or necessity) for meeting the crash-worthiness of new cars, wouldn't it make sense to put luggage racks at each end of the VL II sleepers? (Maybe I've answered my own question there.) Racks would be much more usable by many of the passengers who have trouble getting their luggage up into the overhead cubbies. It seems more difficult to get stuff up there than in typical overhead racks in coach. Maybe because the upper bed gets in the way?

All said, this is a bad time to be redesigning the VL II sleepers. Maybe useful for the VL III's or what ever they call the next single-level sleepers.


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## Ryan

Bob Dylan said:


> So Joe and his team get the blame for this design mistake!


How exactly do you reckon "it's different" is a design mistake?


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## Cal

lordsigma said:


> They do plan on continuing to operate the newer VL2 cars with whatever new LD fleet is ordered.


Gotta say, this will drive me a little crazy.


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## joelkfla

Cal said:


> Gotta say, this will drive me a little crazy.


Loosen up, Variety is the spice of life.


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## danlb_2000

I got both an old and new sleeper on my trip last week so I took the opportunity to measure the storage cubbies. 

Old: 36" wide, 23" deep, total height, 17", but only 12" clearance over the bar.
New: 36" wide, 17" deep, total height 16", 11" clearance over the bar. 

I did really appreciate the extra storage where the toilet used to be in the Viewliner II.


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## AmtrakBlue

danlb_2000 said:


> I did really appreciate the extra storage where the toilet used to be in the Viewliner II.


I rode a VLII last October and immediately noticed that my bag would fit under the step. The SCA apparently had not seen anyone do that. I suspect he has added that tidbit to his "room tour" for newbies.


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## cocojacoby

danlb_2000 said:


> I got both an old and new sleeper on my trip last week so I took the opportunity to measure the storage cubbies.
> 
> Old: 36" wide, 23" deep, total height, 17", but only 12" clearance over the bar.
> New: 36" wide, 17" deep, total height 16", 11" clearance over the bar.
> 
> I did really appreciate the extra storage where the toilet used to be in the Viewliner II.



Initially you would think that they put something new over the aisle (such as the electrical cable) but because the rooms alternate I would think there isn't that much opportunity to do so but maybe they zig-zagged it in.

I so wish they did something about that bar since it greatly restricts access. Probably a simple lip would have sufficed? Maybe a door?


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## danlb_2000

cocojacoby said:


> Initially you would think that they put something new over the aisle (such as the electrical cable) but because the rooms alternate I would think there isn't that much opportunity to do so but maybe they zig-zagged it in.
> 
> I so wish they did something about that bar since it greatly restricts access. Probably a simple lip would have sufficed? Maybe a door?



Or straps that can be hooked up like the ones on the top bunk.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

I'm on a Cardinal train 50 leaving Chicago going to NYC. It leaves Chicago at 5:55 CST.
Can someone tell me if any of the new Viewliner II cars could be on this route and I will board one of those? I'd love to be in one of these updated cars!


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## jis

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> I'm on a Cardinal train 50 leaving Chicago going to NYC. It leaves Chicago at 5:55 CST.
> Can someone tell me if any of the new Viewliner II cars could be on this route and I will board one of those? I'd love to be in one of these updated cars!


What is your date of travel? If it is within the next several weeks then your are unlikely to get a new Viewliner on the Cardinal.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

jis said:


> What is your date of travel? If it is within the next several weeks then your are unlikely to get a new Viewliner on the Cardinal.


Date of travel is July 23rd 2022


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## jis

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> Date of travel is July 23rd 2022


By then it is possible that there will be a change over to a VL-2. But we should know about such a change much before that, if it comes to pass. So hang onto your hat and see what comes about.


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## IndyLions

jis said:


> By then it is possible that there will be a change over to a VL-2. But we should know about such a change much before that, if it comes to pass. So hang onto your hat and see what comes about.


There is a VL2 on the Cardinal - but it is a combo Crew Dorm / Baggage Car. The Crew Dorm includes Roomettes that are similar/identical to the Roomettes available on a VL2 Sleeper. We seem to have pretty good information here that Amtrak intends to start booking a few of the excess Crew Dorm Roomettes that as of now go unused. As a matter of fact, we've had reports from members here who have been booked for future dates in the Crew Dorm.

So as jis says, hang on to your hat - and look for news on either a full VL2 sleeper on the Cardinal (less likely), or an opportunity to book a VL2 Crew Dorm Roomette (more likely)...


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## IndyLions

Which car numbers currently running on the LSL are VLII? Getting ready to schedule a trip, and want to make sure I get a room in a VLII car.


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## AmtrakBlue

The 12 car, I believe. It was that one back in October


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## Keith1951

I always thought the roomettes had toilets and sinks in them on the east coast trips. Have they stopped this? Before the pandemic, we used to ride the LSL and the Silver Star or Meteor and we had toilets. Now when Im booking these I dont see any trips with these facilities. Whats up?


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## AmtrakBlue

Keith1951 said:


> I always thought the roomettes had toilets and sinks in them on the east coast trips. Have they stopped this? Before the pandemic, we used to ride the LSL and the Silver Star or Meteor and we had toilets. Now when Im booking these I dont see any trips with these facilities. Whats up?


The old sleepers still have toilets & sinks in roomettes. The new sleepers only have the sink.
The LSL has one of each on 48/49
The Super Star (combined Star & Meteor) has 2 old & 3 new


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## pennyk

Keith1951 said:


> I always thought the roomettes had toilets and sinks in them on the east coast trips. Have they stopped this? Before the pandemic, we used to ride the LSL and the Silver Star or Meteor and we had toilets. Now when Im booking these I dont see any trips with these facilities. Whats up?


Today's Silver Star 92 (which I saw not too long ago) has 3 new viewliner (no toilets in roomettes, and 2 public restrooms in the car) and 2 old viewliner sleepers (toilets in roomettes and no public restrooms in the car). The 9210, 12 and 14 cars were new cars and 9211 and 9213 were old cars. If you wish a specific car, I would phone to make your reservation with an agent. I would not ask for new or old car, I would ask for even or odd car numbers. Of course, the current consist can change.


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## peteypablo

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> Date of travel is July 23rd 2022


I think the Cardinal started running Viewliner II on May 25, 2022. I'll let you know for sure after June 16, 2022, when my son rides on it.


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## AmtrakBlue

peteypablo said:


> I think the Cardinal started running Viewliner II on May 25, 2022. I'll let you know for sure after June 16, 2022, when my son rides on it.


Yes, the Cardinal now has a VLII. I've taken a couple of videos of it with the new sleeper. I think I posted a pic of it last week in another thread.

Here’s 51(27) leaving Wilmington, DE


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## Marty605

pennyk said:


> Today's Silver Star 92 (which I saw not too long ago) has 3 new viewliner (no toilets in roomettes, and 2 public restrooms in the car) and 2 old viewliner sleepers (toilets in roomettes and no public restrooms in the car). The 9210, 12 and 14 cars were new cars and 9211 and 9213 were old cars. If you wish a specific car, I would phone to make your reservation with an agent. I would not ask for new or old car, I would ask for even or odd car numbers. Of course, the current consist can change.


Hi new member here! I'm taking the silver star to NYP from WPB the end of the month. bought a roomette and it's car 9211 Do you think it's the old V1? Would like to have the room with the toilet!!! Have been talking Amtrak for years to NYC. Had some pretty bad experiences in coach next to Strangers!!
My last trip was 12/2021 and the social distancing vacant seat next to me. The train is 70% full now. Hopefully on trip back in August wont be that crowded. Or i'll have to get the roomette again.


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## trimetbusfan

Marty605 said:


> Hi new member here! I'm taking the silver star to NYP from WPB the end of the month. bought a roomette and it's car 9211 Do you think it's the old V1? Would like to have the room with the toilet!!! Have been talking Amtrak for years to NYC. Had some pretty bad experiences in coach next to Strangers!!
> My last trip was 12/2021 and the social distancing vacant seat next to me. The train is 70% full now. Hopefully on trip back in August wont be that crowded. Or i'll have to get the roomette again.


9111 usually runs with a V1 sleeper which has the toilets in all rooms and roomettes.


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## pennyk

Marty605 said:


> Hi new member here! I'm taking the silver star to NYP from WPB the end of the month. bought a roomette and it's car 9211 Do you think it's the old V1? Would like to have the room with the toilet!!! Have been talking Amtrak for years to NYC. Had some pretty bad experiences in coach next to Strangers!!
> My last trip was 12/2021 and the social distancing vacant seat next to me. The train is 70% full now. Hopefully on trip back in August wont be that crowded. Or i'll have to get the roomette again.


The "usual" consist these days is even numbered cars are V2 (new) and odd numbered cars are V1 (old with toilets in roomettes). However, there have been instances when that is not the case. (I feel very strongly about wanting a toilet in my room so I have been booking bedrooms.)


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## OBS

Marty605 said:


> Hi new member here! I'm taking the silver star to NYP from WPB the end of the month. bought a roomette and it's car 9211 Do you think it's the old V1? Would like to have the room with the toilet!!! Have been talking Amtrak for years to NYC. Had some pretty bad experiences in coach next to Strangers!!
> My last trip was 12/2021 and the social distancing vacant seat next to me. The train is 70% full now. Hopefully on trip back in August wont be that crowded. Or i'll have to get the roomette again.


Traveling in August I would expect a fairly full train.


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## Bonser

Thirdrail7 said:


> Here is the thread dealing with the initial start up, testing and ultimately, the delivery of the baggage cars:
> 
> 
> 
> There is still an outstanding dining car (for the next few weeks or so) so this we can keep an eye on this thread for information and usage:
> 
> 
> 
> Only 1 bag/dorm has emerged from the factory, meaning there are 9 more outstanding so, this thread will hopefully have some action in the future:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As such, it is time to talk about the last car in this order. The sleeping car. First things first, though:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> h34r:
> 
> Where would add additional sleepers as they trickle out in tiny batches? Would you use them to supplement the existing trains or remove the Viewliner Is for overhaul as they emerge? Perhaps you would wait until you had 5 on hand before you'd remove View Is for overhauls/mods?
> 
> Let's speculate!


Sorry if this has been already covered but is there space on the Viewliner's sleepers to store luggage similiar to the luggage racks on the Superliners? I'm not checking the luggage.


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## AmtrakBlue

Tom Booth said:


> Sorry if this has been already covered but is there space on the Viewliner's sleepers to store luggage similiar to the luggage racks on the Superliners?


No, but there's a storage area above the door (goes over the hallway) where you can put bags. I've not used it, but others have. The new roomettes have a space under the step (where the toilet used to be) where a small rollerbag will fit. I did use that space.


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## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> No, but there's a storage area above the door (goes over the hallway) where you can put bags.


Which is suitable for a carry-on bag or squishy backpack. I don't think you can get a full-sized pullman suitcase up there.


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## amtrakpass

If it is the offseason attendants will often let you store luggage in an unsold room but during the busy times of the year on a viewliner you have fit it all in your room or check the baggage. If you are solo, it might be a possiblity to store something on the top bunk.


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## bonzoesc

joelkfla said:


> Which is suitable for a carry-on bag or squishy backpack. I don't think you can get a full-sized pullman suitcase up there.


I was able to fit an airline-allowed roll aboard, a big backpack (Wandrd Prvke), and another small cooler bag up there on both a VL1 and VL2; kind of tricky topologically with the top bunk in play, but it worked well. Wouldn’t’ve been able to wedge a checked-bag-only size roller up there though.


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## IndyLions

bonzoesc said:


> I was able to fit an airline-allowed roll aboard, a big backpack (Wandrd Prvke), and another small cooler bag up there on both a VL1 and VL2; kind of tricky topologically with the top bunk in play, but it worked well. Wouldn’t’ve been able to wedge a checked-bag-only size roller up there though.


I’ve taken a similar approach with much success.

There’s plenty of room up in the space above the hall, but go with multiple smaller bags instead of one giant one. Remember, you’ve got to lift it way up there.

And to repeat what others have said - if you snag one of the Viewliner II rooms, a regular airline carry-on bag up to the maximum size will fit perfectly underneath the step.


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## AmtrakBlue

Viewliner II Roomette


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## MARC Rider

IndyLions said:


> There’s plenty of room up in the space above the hall, but go with multiple smaller bags instead of one giant one. Remember, you’ve got to lift it way up there.


Also, the sleeping car attendant should help you get the bag up there. All you need to do is ask. It worked for us on a Silver Meteor trip.


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## west point

All the V-1 and V-2 sleepers need to stay on the present single level trains. No canabilization to west coast trains.


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## joelkfla

west point said:


> All the V-1 and V-2 sleepers need to stay on the present single level trains. No canabilization to west coast trains.


Is the transdorm stairway suitable for public use?


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## jis

west point said:


> All the V-1 and V-2 sleepers need to stay on the present single level trains. No canabilization to west coast trains.


Did someone propose to use Viewliners on western trains? Why? When mechanical maintenance catches up is there a shortage of Superliner Sleepers? Full deployment of Viewliners is certainly thwarted at present by a slew of Viewliners - V2 Baggage, V2 Diners and V1 Sleepers being in storage pending something or the other. Sometimes it is not easy to figure out why Amtrak management does what it does and they never wish to explain, perhaps because they are not sure either.

The only time that I am aware of when mixing Viewliner and Superliners has been proposed was in the Capitol Limited PIP which proposed transferring a few cars from the Pannsylvanian to the Capitol at Pittsburgh to create an additional New York to Chicago through service via Pittsburgh.

In short I doubt that there is any fear of Viewliners finding their way into Superliner trains beyond the Baggage cars.


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## west point

jis said:


> In short I doubt that there is any fear of Viewliners finding their way into Superliner trains beyond the Baggage cars.


I hope not although Capitol getting one V sleeper off the Pensylvanian possible but only "IF"

1. Number of single level sleeper trainsets. LSL - 3, Star - 4, Meteor - 4, Crescent - 4, Cardinal - 2 , Or -3 if it goes daily, Night owl- 2 = 19 or 20. 
3. Normal assignments should be LSL - 12, Star - 16, Meteor - 16, Crescent - 12, Cardinal - 4 or 6, Nght Owl -2 = 62. Is latest operatable count 76? 
4. Spares: Wilmington mtce -3, SSY - 2, NOL - 1, MIA - 2 == 70

6. Have 1 cut off sleeper from Star, Meteor, Crescent at WASH. Each provides one more available.
7. That would give 9 to be assigned. Capitol would take 3. 
8. Otherwise 2 train sets could get 1 additional each.
9. Now if the Crescemt - Texacan begins operating that will be 5 train sets or 4 if there is a WASH cutoff.
10. Since NOL only needs one sleeper 2 or maybe 3 might end up on Texacan. For now obvious conclusion is cut off the present NOL sleepers at ATL but that will require a switcher. Maybe a track mobile if some switches were added.? TOO expensive.


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## MARC Rider

MARC Rider said:


> Also, the sleeping car attendant should help you get the bag up there. All you need to do is ask. It worked for us on a Silver Meteor trip.




As shown in the above image, there is a shelf next to the seat facing the sink and steps that is large enough to hold a decent size suitcase. I don't remember when I took a look at this roomette whether there was a strap and buckle on the wall, but I know there are in the V-1 roomettes, which makes it easy to secure the suitcase to keep it from falling over. If anything, it seems to me that the shelf on the V-2 roomette is wider than the one on the V-1 roomette. Luggage storage is still a bit of an issue if you have two people using the room.


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## jis

west point said:


> I hope not although Capitol getting one V sleeper off the Pensylvanian possible but only "IF"
> 
> 1. Number of single level sleeper trainsets. LSL - 3, Star - 4, Meteor - 4, Crescent - 4, Cardinal - 2 , Or -3 if it goes daily, Night owl- 2 = 19 or 20.
> 3. Normal assignments should be LSL - 12, Star - 16, Meteor - 16, Crescent - 12, Cardinal - 4 or 6, Nght Owl -2 = 62. Is latest operatable count 76?
> 4. Spares: Wilmington mtce -3, SSY - 2, NOL - 1, MIA - 2 == 70
> 
> 6. Have 1 cut off sleeper from Star, Meteor, Crescent at WASH. Each provides one more available.
> 7. That would give 9 to be assigned. Capitol would take 3.
> 8. Otherwise 2 train sets could get 1 additional each.
> 9. Now if the Crescemt - Texacan begins operating that will be 5 train sets or 4 if there is a WASH cutoff.
> 10. Since NOL only needs one sleeper 2 or maybe 3 might end up on Texacan. For now obvious conclusion is cut off the present NOL sleepers at ATL but that will require a switcher. Maybe a track mobile if some switches were added.? TOO expensive.


At full deployment there will be 60 in service since Amtrak tends to keep 20% for maintenance overhaul and protect.

But at present only around 40 are in service exclusive of maintenance and protect. Active fleet is around 60, so overhaul + protect numbers are a little higher than usual. The balance of 15 or so are in Mothballs. One hopes they will come out of their cocoons in the next three or four years.

Needless to say most of your optimistic numbers are fantasy at present, and probably for the rest of this year and even the next.


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## Heading North

I haven’t been in a Viewliner sleeper in years, but one trick with the luggage cubby over the hallway that always worked for me: lift the suitcase to the top bunk (which you can pull down a bit if needed), then just transfer it straight across to the cubby. It’s less awkward than trying to get something heavy up and over in one move.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

I'm taking Viewliner trains from CHI-NYC (50 Cardinal) and NYC-CHI. This is the week of July 24th. What are the chances I will get on one of the Viewliner II trains?


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## IndyLions

Odds are pretty good. The Cardinal for the past few weeks has only been running with the newer sleepers and crew dorms.


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## Marty605

Took 92 Silver star from WPB to NYP in a Roomette. Had the old viewliner 1 car with the toilet! fine with me. Took some pics of the new V 2 sleeper car. Posting some pictures here (if im allowed? New to this site )


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

Marty605 said:


> Took 92 Silver star from WPB to NYP in a Roomette. Had the old viewliner 1 car with the toilet! fine with me. Took some pics of the new V 2 sleeper car. Posting some pictures here (if im allowed? New to this site )


Thanks for the photos!


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> Thanks for the photos!


Can someone take a photo of the V2 bedrooms?


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## Marty605

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> Can someone take a photo of the V2 bedrooms?i'm returning end of july, I'll take some of the v2 bedroom


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## joelkfla

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> Can someone take a photo of the V2 bedrooms?


YouTube:


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## NES28

jis said:


> At full deployment there will be 60 in service since Amtrak tends to keep 20% for maintenance overhaul and protect.
> 
> But at present only around 40 are in service exclusive of maintenance and protect. Active fleet is around 60, so overhaul + protect numbers are a little higher than usual. The balance of 15 or so are in Mothballs. One hopes they will come out of their cocoons in the next three or four years.


The reason that the V2 sleepers were purchased was to be able to add cars (capacity) on the Eastern trains which are shorter than was historically the case. There was an expectation that supply/demand would lead to fares somewhat lower than the crazy high prices being charged but still resulting in an overall reduction in the operating loss incurred by operating the trains while improving the experience for riders. Having these expensive cars in mothballs is hugely disappointing.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

joelkfla said:


> YouTube:



Thanks!


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## OBS

joelkfla said:


> Is the transdorm stairway suitable for public use?


Absolutely...


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## jiml

joelkfla said:


> YouTube:



The "Grounded Life" couple do fairly objective reviews of train travel all over the world.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

I take a Lake Shore Limited train from Chicago to Albany Rensselaer NY on Wed night at 9:30. 
What is the chance I will get a Viewliner II train rather than a Viewliner I?


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## Bonser

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> I take a Lake Shore Limited train from Chicago to Albany Rensselaer NY on Wed night at 9:30.
> What is the chance I will get a Viewliner II train rather than a Viewliner I?


I took the LSL to New York two weeks ago and it was all Viewliner 1's.


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## AmtrakBlue

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> I take a Lake Shore Limited train from Chicago to Albany Rensselaer NY on Wed night at 9:30.
> What is the chance I will get a Viewliner II train rather than a Viewliner I?


What's the car number on your ticket? If it's 4812, then that _should_ be a VLII


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## joelkfla

AmtrakBlue said:


> What's the car number on your ticket? If it's 12, then that _should_ be a VLII


To clarify, if the car number ends in 12.


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## AmtrakBlue

joelkfla said:


> To clarify, if the car number ends in 12.


Thanks, fixed.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

AmtrakBlue said:


> What's the car number on your ticket? If it's 4812, then that _should_ be a VLII


No. My car number is 4820—train 448.


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## AmtrakBlue

Kbyrdleroydogg said:


> No. My car number is 4820—train 448.


Most likely it will be a VLI then


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## John819

AmtrakBlue said:


> Most likely it will be a VLI then


No VL II on the Boston section.


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## AmtrakBlue

John819 said:


> No VL II on the Boston section.


Unless Amtrak decides to add one 
I know that VLIIs have not been assigned to the Boston section, yet.


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## pennyk

Unless my eyes played tricks on me this evening (and the affected my comprehension), when I saw today's 92 pass north of Orlando, it appeared that there were only 2 VII sleepers and 3 VI sleepers (10 and 14 were new and 11, 12 and 13 were old), which is not the "usual" consist.


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## joelkfla

pennyk said:


> Unless my eyes played tricks on me this evening (and the affected my comprehension), when I saw today's 92 pass north of Orlando, it appeared that there were only 2 VII sleepers and 3 VI sleepers (10 and 14 were new and 11, 12 and 13 were old), which is not the "usual" consist.


Confirmed on Plant City railcam. So it was just 9212 that was abnormal; they probably had to swap in a spare VL I for a bad-ordered VL II.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

Does anyone have a diagram of the current Viewliner II trains? 

I have one where the roomettes are 12 but I was told by an Amtrak rep that they have 10 now.


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## trimetbusfan

There indeed are 12 rooms but only 10 available for _revenue sale_. One is for the car attendant and one is for linens (since the VIIs do not have linen closets)


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## AmtrakBlue

trimetbusfan said:


> There indeed are 12 rooms but only 10 available for _revenue sale_. One is for the car attendant and one is for linens (since the VIIs do not have linen closets)


Uh, one of the “rooms” is now the two bathrooms.


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## Kbyrdleroydogg

I'm on a Lake Shore Limited from Chgo Union Station to NYC leaving at 9:30. Are these viewliner II cars or the older Viewliner ones?


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## AmtrakBlue

The 12 car should be a VLII


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## fdaley

The 20 car (to/from Boston) was a V1 when I rode earlier this month.


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## zephyr17

Car lines 11 and 20 are V Is, car line 12 is a V II


----------

