# GE vs. EMD In Reliability



## CSXfoamer1997 (Mar 8, 2016)

Which of the two locomotive companies has the most problems with its locos? GE or EMD? Problems include the following: Stalling, breaking now, fires, mechanical/electrical failures, and many other problems that could result in going to the scrapyard too soon.

If one of those has the most problems, it gives me an idea to ask for a suggestion of which company to work with in order to design more reliable, more powerful, and longer lasting locomotives.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 8, 2016)

Have you seen Montana rail link locomotives? There nearly if not completely EMD power for MRL owned locomotives, and they are maintained well enough that it is rare to see one have a failure enroute.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm a EMD fanboy of the SD75I. I'm not a locomotive expert though. Hey, I'm not a big fan of GE jet engines either.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Mar 9, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> Have you seen Montana rail link locomotives? There nearly if not completely EMD power for MRL owned locomotives, and they are maintained well enough that it is rare to see one have a failure enroute.


Wow! That's pretty amazing! I wonder how the older locos by EMD manage to handle well? Only one note: The F45's and SD45's were made at the time EMD was with General Motors and the SD70ACe's were made at the time EMD was now with Caterpillar and Progress Rail.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 9, 2016)

Fact check on the 2004 locomotives please.

Pretty sure CAT didn't own EMD when they were built.


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## jis (Mar 9, 2016)

EMD was sold by GM to Greenbriar Equity Groups LLC and Berkshire Partners LLC on April 4 2005. The first article in WSJ talking of EMD being put up for sale by GM came out sometime in 2004, but the deal did not close until April 2005.

EMD was acquired by Caterpillar through the subsidiary Progress Rail Corporation on August 2, 2010.

Since the original SD70M order from UP was sometime in the 1998-99 timeframe, it is likely that many were manufactured while EMD was owned by GM, though later ones may have been manufactured post GM ownership. The 2004 deliveries of SD70-AC to UP were definitely from the GM owned EMD.

Incidentally the AC drive technology that is used by EMD is licensed from Siemens.


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## amtkstn (Mar 9, 2016)

Up until 1982 EMD locomotive were built to high standards. Ask any older engineer and they will tell you EMD will get the job done better then any GE. EMD's give full power at the first throttle setting while GE's notch up slower. When EMD came out with the SD50 problems with the new prime mover(engine), started to turn the tide giving GE the lead in locomotive production.


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## railiner (Mar 9, 2016)

I suspect that EMD suffered the same thing that it's "little brother", Detroit Diesel did....

When they were forced to give up the outstanding two-stroke design that Charles Kettering developed, in favor of the modern four-stroke due to excessive pollution concerns, they were never the same thereafter...


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## ayezee (Mar 9, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Which of the two locomotive companies has the most problems with its locos? GE or EMD? Problems include the following: Stalling, breaking now, fires, mechanical/electrical failures, and many other problems that could result in going to the scrapyard too soon.
> 
> If one of those has the most problems, it gives me an idea to ask for a suggestion of which company to work with in order to design more reliable, more powerful, and longer lasting locomotives.


Are you in school for some sort of engineering?


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Mar 10, 2016)

ayezee said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Which of the two locomotive companies has the most problems with its locos? GE or EMD? Problems include the following: Stalling, breaking now, fires, mechanical/electrical failures, and many other problems that could result in going to the scrapyard too soon.
> ...


I'm a senior in high school.


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## NW cannonball (Mar 16, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> ayezee said:
> 
> 
> > CSXfoamer1997 said:
> ...


Well, then -- ancient history won't help you much.

By the time you get your mechanical engineering degree, everything will have changed, again, like always.

Learn the math! "complex calculus - ha ha - it's easy, only 2-vectors" "Hamiltonian - conservation of energy - do the math!" "quaternions? bispinors?" Do it!

Corporate whatsises will change, but the ways metal moves - once you learn that you've got something.

Best luck with your endeavors


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## cirdan (Mar 16, 2016)

NW cannonball said:


> Well, then -- ancient history won't help you much.
> 
> By the time you get your mechanical engineering degree, everything will have changed, again, like always.
> 
> ...


Speaking as somebody who studied electrical engineering and did quite a few rail related courses while there, and also having worked in the rail industry for a brief stretch and for a supplier to the rail industry for a longer stretch, I agree with all of this.

Corporations come and go all the time and technologies and patents and know how are being sold on all the time. Loyalty is good but you need to cover your bases and know when to jump ship. Knowledge is not really vested with corporations but with the people who work there. As a rule of thumb you can say, the better the people, the better the company. If a key person retires or switches to another company, this can have unexpected consequences for product and engineering decisions. One company I worked at a senior engineer quit over a disagreement with management. It was a relatively minor disgreement but managment wanted to make an example of him and they shemed him and hounded him out. A lot of the junior engineers were loyal to him and loved his style of leadership and after he left morale went down and a lot of people quit quite soon and a lot of knowledge was lost and the whole R&D performance suffered and the company failed on some big projects. Not good. The senior engineer however, once his gardening leave was ended, got a job with the competitor and started hiring in a good number of his former team and they really started making some good stuff and the old company even tried hiring him back but he said no ... revenge is sweet. But it shows how easily a good company can become a bad company and vice versa.

A market leader of today will not necessarily be the leader in 5 years time. In many cases this may be because they bet their future on the wrong technology or lose key developers or misestimate market trends. Sometimes managment make stupid decisons and get involved in technology decisions. This can lead to some pretty crazy things happening. I've seen it all.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Mar 16, 2016)

cirdan said:


> NW cannonball said:
> 
> 
> > Well, then -- ancient history won't help you much.
> ...


Very nice! But anyways, which of the two loco companies do you think has the most problems with its locos? GE or EMD?


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## CCC1007 (Mar 16, 2016)

They have both had problems, and both have worked to solve those problems.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Mar 16, 2016)

CCC1007 said:


> They have both had problems, and both have worked to solve those problems.


Oh, really?! As a matter of fact, I've heard that GE's have more fuel fires than EMD's, but also, EMD's tend to stall more than GE's. Is this true? If so, which company do you think I should work with to design better locomotives?


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## tp49 (Mar 16, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> which company do you think I should work with to design better locomotives?


Whichever one offers you the most money and benefits.


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## CCC1007 (Mar 16, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> CCC1007 said:
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> 
> > They have both had problems, and both have worked to solve those problems.
> ...


That is a very personal question, both are good companies to work for, but you might not have a choice if you submit an application and be rejected by one or both companies. There have been some fires on GE locomotives, but EMD has had teething problems with several models of locomotives, such as their tier 4 locomotives needing a complete redesign last year.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 16, 2016)

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > They have both had problems, and both have worked to solve those problems.
> ...


Do you have a college degree? If not, then I think its premature to be deciding which company to apply to to design a better locomotive.


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## Acela150 (Mar 16, 2016)

I've been on many EMD and GE units.. The real answer is... Run these units the way that NS, CSX, BNSF, and UP do, they will both have issues. I've been on Tier 3 AC units that are great, and some that are complete trash. These units aren't that old either. 5 years old at best. I've been on units that are 15-20 years old that run better then newer units. Bottom line is.. There's no difference.


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## Ryan (Mar 16, 2016)

This sounds amazing like a Ford vs Chevy conversation.


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## Acela150 (Mar 16, 2016)

I see what you did there.


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## CSXfoamer1997 (Mar 16, 2016)

AmtrakBlue said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
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> > CCC1007 said:
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No, I haven't even started college yet, but even though I'm still in high school (I'm a senior and about to graduate), I've done quite a lot of research, because I'm really fascinated with whatever has to do with trains. I've been fascinated with trains ever since I was a baby!


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## CCC1007 (Mar 16, 2016)

Join the club.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 16, 2016)

Ryan said:


> This sounds amazing like a Ford vs Chevy conversation.


We Oldsters would say Ford vs. Chevy vs. Plymouth!!


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## SarahZ (Mar 16, 2016)

tp49 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > which company do you think I should work with to design better locomotives?
> ...


^^ This. 

Seriously. Like others have said, it's like Ford vs. Chevy. They both have their pros and cons. Whichever company is willing to hire you and keep you comfortable and insured is the one you want.


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## railiner (Mar 17, 2016)

Acela150 said:


> These units aren't that old either. 5 years old at best. I've been on units that are 15-20 years old that run better then newer units. Bottom line is.. There's no difference.


Interesting....I find the same phenomenon with buses....the older ones that have been properly maintained seem more trouble-free. I believe that much of that is a result of much more stringent pollution control requirements, as well as more complex electronic control units.....


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 17, 2016)

Well a lot can also be said for maintenance. It could be from a great company but if it isn't maintained properly it won't work. Now if it's maintained properly it should run forever


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## cirdan (Mar 17, 2016)

My advice is to concentrate on your degree first.

To be a good engineer you have to be good at all the advanced math and physics and you'll have plenty of really tough exams to sit.

This is first and foremost.

Possibly some of the stuff you learn will give you a better understanding of where GE's and EMd's relative problems are coming from. That may change your opinions in some ways.

I had some pretty good professors at uni who had previously worked in industry and developed stuff (including trains) and they had plenty of anecdotes and stories that changed the way I thought about many things.

Put your energy into that and get the best degree possible. Then potential employers will be opening their doors for you.


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## NW cannonball (Mar 20, 2016)

cirdan said:


> My advice is to concentrate on your degree first.
> 
> To be a good engineer you have to be good at all the advanced math and physics and you'll have plenty of really tough exams to sit.
> 
> ...


Right. You need the basic thermodynamics -- Carnot and Maxwell and all, and the DiffEQ to work with that, and the famous (among math and engineering jocks) Hamiltonion operators, oh, and all the materials engineering stuff,

Learn all you can, there's a lot to learn 

Go for it.!


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