# More Night Trains for Europe



## Just-Thinking-51

Europe: Night-Train Vision - Railway Age


If International Railway Journal had suggested in 2016 that school children striking in Sweden over the lack of government action concerning the impact of climate change would lead to an overnight sleeper train revival, when most of them were being withdrawn across much of western Europe, most...




www.railwayage.com





So yes this pre COVID but still all the different players getting involved in sleeper trains.


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## Willbridge

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Europe: Night-Train Vision - Railway Age
> 
> 
> If International Railway Journal had suggested in 2016 that school children striking in Sweden over the lack of government action concerning the impact of climate change would lead to an overnight sleeper train revival, when most of them were being withdrawn across much of western Europe, most...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.railwayage.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yes this pre COVID but still all the different players getting involved in sleeper trains.


I like Nightjet, especially the rooms with a window for the upper berth. And I especially get a kick out of Nightjet because they ought-thought Deutsche Bahn. With the cooperation of SNCF, they created a useful Paris<>Freiburg<>Berlin overnight service.

My last experience with DB's City Night Line was reminiscent of the Southern Pacific; it was obvious that overnight passengers were not wanted in 2014. The photos show my Berlin to Amsterdam trip halted at Emmerich due to a Dutch engine breakdown. In photo 15k you can see the disconnected train line laid out on the platform, waiting for an "engine too far" from Arnhem Not DB's fault, but no attempt to ameliorate the situation. Booking the trip had been a hassle in the first place.


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## sttom

Its nice to see that overnight trains in Europe are expanding, but I am also envious. I would like to have more overnight trains in the US and a budget option. But I am hopeful, it European railways are starting to budge on conventional thinking, Amtrak probably will too. Especially considering the people running the show have the capacity to retire.


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## Willbridge

New routes continue to pop up:

Starting Sunday, June 27th, Transdev will launch a new overnight service Berlin <> Hamburg <> Malmö <> Stockholm with some intermediate stops. The service is to run daily till September 4th, then less-than-daily into October. As the French firm has ambitions to expand their overnight services my surmise is that if the bookings are strong the service will continue. If not, it will have been an interesting experiment and they can try elsewhere.

from Berliner Zeitung


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## jis

New network of European sleeper trains announced


A French start-up aims to run ‘hotels on rails’ from Paris to 12 cities across Europe, including Edinburgh, from 2024




www.theguardian.com


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## Anderson

Willbridge said:


> New routes continue to pop up:
> 
> Starting Sunday, June 27th, Transdev will launch a new overnight service Berlin <> Hamburg <> Malmö <> Stockholm with some intermediate stops. The service is to run daily till September 4th, then less-than-daily into October. As the French firm has ambitions to expand their overnight services my surmise is that if the bookings are strong the service will continue. If not, it will have been an interesting experiment and they can try elsewhere.
> 
> from Berliner Zeitung


This is not unlike an existing seasonal service that SJ was running pre-pandemic, so I don't know if this is _new _vs being an old service getting revived and tweaked (whether under a franchise/operating contract with SJ or otherwise).


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## Bob Dylan

If I am ever able to visit Europe again, I look forward to trying out some of these Trains, along with the ones in the British Isles, including the Chunnel Train.


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## west point

Some of these new sleeper routes are not being listed as having new cars from builders.. I am wondering if some of the older ones that were "retired" have been refurbished to meet demand ?


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## Just-Thinking-51

New equipment is on order for NightJet. There is a large market of used equipment with different levels of refurbishment need. Everything getting launch in the next few years is refurbished, the new NightJet as of recently is only a painted shell.


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## Willbridge

Anderson said:


> This is not unlike an existing seasonal service that SJ was running pre-pandemic, so I don't know if this is _new _vs being an old service getting revived and tweaked (whether under a franchise/operating contract with SJ or otherwise).


I omitted that. This route uses the Cold War Vogelfluglinie and I think the old route was more direct via the former GDR.


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## Green Maned Lion

It’s a lot easier to launch new night train services in Europe as there is a lot of still serviceable sleeper cars available on the sidelines, both from discontinued sleeper services in mainland Europe, and retired (but not completely used up) Eastern European (I.e. Comecon) sleeper cars that have been retired from the introduction of newer equipment from Siemens, Talgo, and Transmash on routes in those countries. They meet European safety regulations generally.

In the US there are only Viewliner and Superliner cars that can operate on scheduled mainline service, and the pre-pandemic Amtrak service basically used up everything but the 25 new Viewliner IIs that will easily be dispatched to existing trains as travel returns to normal. To launch increased sleeper service in the US you need new sleeper cars to be ordered, and they will certainly NOT be Viewliner-shell cars built by CAF. I would think the logical cars would be Euro-style transverse 2-berth rooms with a full side hallway, and not things built to use traditional American style roomettes and bedrooms. Although I suppose it would be logical to build the above styles both en-suite (bedroom) and not en-suite (roomette).

But my point is unless what seems to be a crowded order book for Siemens allows them to build US-spec cars similar to what they built for Russian Railways recently, a car will have to be designed, tested, specified, put out for bid, bids gone over, orders placed, endless delays endured, and hope that sometime before this process completes an anti-Amtrak government doesn’t come in and put a Wisconsin-style kibosh on the whole thing.


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## slasher-fun

Anderson said:


> This is not unlike an existing seasonal service that SJ was running pre-pandemic, so I don't know if this is _new _vs being an old service getting revived and tweaked (whether under a franchise/operating contract with SJ or otherwise).


It's not SJ that was running this train, but Transdev (Snälltåget). It was only running between Berlin and Malmö with no intermediate stops, and was put on a ferry between Sassnitz and Trelleborg. The ferry has been discontinued, so the train now runs via Hamburg and Copenhagen (not via the Vogelfluglinie, there are no more trains here either, but via the Great Belt Fixed Link), and is extended north to Stockholm. Night train Stockholm–Berlin | Snälltåget


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> This is not unlike an existing seasonal service that SJ was running pre-pandemic, so I don't know if this is _new _vs being an old service getting revived and tweaked (whether under a franchise/operating contract with SJ or otherwise).


I believe the previous seasonal service went via the Mukran / Sassnitz to Trelleborg train ferry . The new service is routed via Hamburg . So more opportunities to pick up passengers but less romantic


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## cirdan

Green Maned Lion said:


> It’s a lot easier to launch new night train services in Europe as there is a lot of still serviceable sleeper cars available on the sidelines, both from discontinued sleeper services in mainland Europe, and retired (but not completely used up) Eastern European (I.e. Comecon) sleeper cars that have been retired from the introduction of newer equipment from



Partly correct .

a lot of the stuff that is available dates to the 1970s. Some even older with 1960s and even 1950s vintage still being available in Reserve or even active use in some cases . Much of it has been refurbished many times over and I wouldn’t wager how little of it is still original . Disregarding the very new stuff presently being delivered , the newest cars are circa 2003 but there are only a few of those . Then there are slightly more 1990 s cars which are probably the nicest but they are getting on in years now as well and some have already been retired , and this despite their being many cars still in use that are much older . I guess on average european night train cars are probably still older than mich of what Amtrak uses .

The Austrians are rebuilding some daytime cars into couchette cars to bridge the shortage . But in the longer run virtually everything that is still running needs to be replaced . It’s going to be costly and it will be a test to see whether the respective administrations can back up their words with money


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## slasher-fun

cirdan said:


> I believe the previous seasonal service went via the Mukran / Sassnitz to Trelleborg train ferry . The new service is routed via Hamburg . So more opportunities to pick up passengers but less romantic


Although spending the night in the car deck of a ship with no AC wasn't exactly "romantic"


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## Willbridge

slasher-fun said:


> Although spending the night in the car deck of a ship with no AC wasn't exactly "romantic"


In 1970 I rode Hamburg<>Copenhagen overnight. Although in August, the temperature wasn't the problem. Noise was. Chaining the cars down created a racket and then passengers were turned loose for an hour, then drifted back into the car. In the same year my partner and his wife rode the _Night Ferry _from London to Paris and had no noise complaints.

Thanks for clarifying the route.


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## Green Maned Lion

cirdan said:


> Partly correct .
> 
> a lot of the stuff that is available dates to the 1970s. Some even older with 1960s and even 1950s vintage still being available in Reserve or even active use in some cases . Much of it has been refurbished many times over and I wouldn’t wager how little of it is still original . Disregarding the very new stuff presently being delivered , the newest cars are circa 2003 but there are only a few of those . Then there are slightly more 1990 s cars which are probably the nicest but they are getting on in years now as well and some have already been retired , and this despite their being many cars still in use that are much older . I guess on average european night train cars are probably still older than mich of what Amtrak uses .
> 
> The Austrians are rebuilding some daytime cars into couchette cars to bridge the shortage . But in the longer run virtually everything that is still running needs to be replaced . It’s going to be costly and it will be a test to see whether the respective administrations can back up their words with money



They do need replacing, sure. But I have often felt that the problem with launching trains is proof they will work. If I can cobble together a reliable service with third tier cars, I can provide a proof of concept to justify the capital expenditure for new cars. If I don’t have the cars to test, for example, the market for an overnight San Francisco - LA so that I can justify putting together an order for new Cars, it is a lot harder to shut down objections that the market doesn’t exist:

If all it costs is a few million to refurbish a 30 year old car for a test train, it’s a lot easier than if the startup costs requires a several-hundred-million order for a large enough quantity of sleepers to justify tooling up to build them.


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## Just-Thinking-51

jis said:


> New network of European sleeper trains announced
> 
> 
> A French start-up aims to run ‘hotels on rails’ from Paris to 12 cities across Europe, including Edinburgh, from 2024
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com



France is a hard place for open access operator. Flix Trains gave up on starting several routes, I read its was track access fees. The Italy operator Thello just threw in the towel on both there Day, and Night trains. So any start up is going to have issues with out a government contract or at least there cooperation.


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## cirdan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> France is a hard place for open access operator. Flix Trains gave up on starting several routes, I read its was track access fees. The Italy operator Thello just threw in the towel on both there Day, and Night trains. So any start up is going to have issues with out a government contract or at least there cooperation.



another problem with France is that the infrastructure part of SNCF is notoriously unpredictable . In the past night trains , even SNCF’s own ones, suffered last minute cancellations because of lines being closed for night time maintenance. If that happens too often passengers lose confidence .

This is in huge contrast to Austria for example where maintenance related closures are publically announced months in advance and even so, OBB go out of their way to find alternative routings, only canceling trains as a last resort .


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## Urban Sky

Willbridge said:


> I like Nightjet, especially the rooms with a window for the upper berth. And I especially get a kick out of Nightjet because they ought-thought Deutsche Bahn. With the cooperation of SNCF, they created a useful Paris<>Freiburg<>Berlin overnight service.


I'm neither aware of any Nightjet service serving Paris, nor of how any train linking the respective capitals of France and Germany could be sensibly routed through Freiburg im Breisgau...


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## jis

Willbridge said:


> I like Nightjet, especially the rooms with a window for the upper berth. And I especially get a kick out of Nightjet because they ought-thought Deutsche Bahn. With the cooperation of SNCF, they created a useful Paris<>Freiburg<>Berlin overnight service.


I don't think the Paris - Berlin service is a NightJet service. It is part of the Paris - Moscow RZD service (EN453/24J) and the routing is Paris - Frankfurt (Maine) - Erfurt - Berlin.






Berlin : Night Trains


Night Trains



www.night-trains.com





Besides why would anyone go through Freiburg to go from Paris to Berlin?

I suppose one could create a connecting service from Paris to any of the stops of Nightjet 470/471 which runs Hamburg - Berlin - Frankfurt -Freiburg - Basel - Zurich but it won't be exactly a typical overnight service, since it would get into Paris late morning. It would be much quicker journey to connect in Frankfurt though, but there is a bit of a wait in Frankfurt since there are apparently no daily trains in the middle of the night from Frankfurt to Paris


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## Willbridge

Urban Sky said:


> I'm neither aware of any Nightjet service serving Paris, nor of how any train linking the respective capitals of France and Germany could be sensibly routed through Freiburg im Breisgau...


Well, I did it and there were other passengers doing it. It was an enjoyable trip. The transfer in Freiburg im Breisgau occurs at civilized times. There are lots of hypothetical ways to run overnight trains between Berlin and Paris and I've ridden several of them when they were offered.

In 2018 which route would you have suggested?

In 2014 I rode the fading through City NightLine service.




Note: the Paris<>Freiburg TGV does not run daily year-round.


Paris Estab 17:23 TGV 9591TGV Duplex Richtung: Freiburg(Breisgau) Hbf
Reservierungspflicht , Pflicht zum Tragen einer medizinischen Maske , Globalpreis , Nichtraucherzug , Bar (Paris Est --> Strasbourg), Bar (Strasbourg --> Freiburg(Breisgau) Hbf), Rollstuhlstellplatz , WLAN verfügbar
Betreiber: SNCFFreiburg(Breisgau) Hbfan 20:264


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## Urban Sky

Willbridge said:


> Well, I did it and there were other passengers doing it. It was an enjoyable trip. The transfer in Freiburg im Breisgau occurs at civilized times. There are lots of hypothetical ways to run overnight trains between Berlin and Paris and I've ridden several of them when they were offered.
> 
> In 2018 which route would you have suggested?
> 
> In 2014 I rode the fading through City NightLine service.
> 
> View attachment 23282
> 
> 
> Note: the Paris<>Freiburg TGV does not run daily year-round.
> 
> 
> Paris Estab 17:23TGV 9591TGV Duplex Richtung: Freiburg(Breisgau) Hbf
> Reservierungspflicht , Pflicht zum Tragen einer medizinischen Maske , Globalpreis , Nichtraucherzug , Bar (Paris Est --> Strasbourg), Bar (Strasbourg --> Freiburg(Breisgau) Hbf), Rollstuhlstellplatz , WLAN verfügbar
> Betreiber: SNCFFreiburg(Breisgau) Hbfan 20:264


What makes you think that this connection is the result of a cooperation between Nightjet and SNCF rather than a mere coincidence? Have you tried booking both trains in a single transaction on a single reservation (which is the prerequisite of receiving any compensation for travel and accommodation costs if you miss your Nightjet because your TGV is late)?

Nightjet.com does not recognize Paris as a valid origin and neither bahn.de nor oui.sncf.com show the connection via Freiburg (they instead suggest to join the Nightjet at 1 am in Frankfurt), even though bahn.de claims that TGV 9591 operates on July 2nd (and then again on September 9, LOL), so what do you do if your TGV breakes down and makes you miss your Nightjet?


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## cirdan

I think if you have a CIV ticket the connection will be honored , no matter the routing . You might have to buy that ticket from a travel agent or station though as I don’t think any online system will give it to you .

you can in fact book via any reasonable route and the same applies .

if you book the journey as two separate legs on totally different tickets then indeed if the train is late you are on your own .

that said, my experience with DB station staff in Germany is that they do go out of their way to help you , even if they don’t need to or have to . I once missed a night train entirely through my own stupidity and the kind lady in the ticket office worked out a way to get me onto a later train at only minimal extra cost .


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## Willbridge

Urban Sky said:


> What makes you think that this connection is the result of a cooperation between Nightjet and SNCF rather than a mere coincidence? Have you tried booking both trains in a single transaction on a single reservation (which is the prerequisite of receiving any compensation for travel and accommodation costs if you miss your Nightjet because your TGV is late)?
> 
> Nightjet.com does not recognize Paris as a valid origin and neither bahn.de nor oui.sncf.com show the connection via Freiburg (they instead suggest to join the Nightjet at 1 am in Frankfurt), even though bahn.de claims that TGV 9591 operates on July 2nd (and then again on September 9, LOL), so what do you do if your TGV breakes down and makes you miss your Nightjet?


The only TGV to Freiburg from Paris and the only TGV from Freiburg to Paris worked nicely with the Nightjet schedule. I don't have any inside info, but there were customers who had it figured out in September 2018. The load factor on the TGV was pretty low between Strasburg and Freiburg, which suggests that SNCF is running it for some future consideration.

If I had to change trains at 1 a.m. on a one-night trip I'd book a seat rather than a sleeping car room.


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## Willbridge

cirdan said:


> I think if you have a CIV ticket the connection will be honored , no matter the routing . You might have to buy that ticket from a travel agent or station though as I don’t think any online system will give it to you .
> 
> you can in fact book via any reasonable route and the same applies .
> 
> if you book the journey as two separate legs on totally different tickets then indeed if the train is late you are on your own .
> 
> that said, my experience with DB station staff in Germany is that they do go out of their way to help you , even if they don’t need to or have to . I once missed a night train entirely through my own stupidity and the kind lady in the ticket office worked out a way to get me onto a later train at only minimal extra cost .


I agree with you regarding the courtesy of DB station staff. In 2008 at Erfurt after a bus bridge through Suhr made me miss a connection they hand-wrote on the margin of my home-printed ticket an ICE connection via a Leipzig cross-platform transfer as a substitute for my 2nd class trip through Halle. I can now say I've visited Leipzig, though being on the platform for four minutes might not count.

The Bistro attendant on the last leg into Berlin was also good-humored and wasn't packing up early.

Before the bus bridge the conductor was informing us of it with her Saxon accent. There was a Chinese passenger who did not speak German and the _sehr ernst_ conductor struggled. The Chinese visitor's English was good and I had read about the reconstruction work on the former GDR line, so we teamed up on the bus bridge to Erfurt, where his uncle was waiting. The conductor indicated relief.


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## slasher-fun

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> France is a hard place for open access operator. Flix Trains gave up on starting several routes, I read its was track access fees. The Italy operator Thello just threw in the towel on both there Day, and Night trains. So any start up is going to have issues with out a government contract or at least there cooperation.


Besides Covid, Thello had several other issues that led to those services being cancelled :
- On the night Paris-Venice train, border checks at the Swiss/Italian and French/Swiss border were common (although illegal by Schengen border laws...). Not really enjoyable to be woken up twice in the middle of the night.
- Both day (Marseille-Milan) and night (Paris-Venice) train services were "somehow" invisible from SNCF websites, which is really inconvenient when SNCF has a de facto monopoly. You would easily find Thello services on DB, ÖBB, SNCF, or CFF travel planners, but they would be suspiciously missing on SNCF websites... For example, the Marseille-Milan would only be shown on the Ventimiglia-Milan part, as if the Marseille-Ventimiglia part did not exist...

Thello should be coming back this fall, on Paris-Lyon-Milan routes, with two daily return high-speed trains, using ETR 1000 trainsets from Trenitalia (Thello is 100% owned by Trenitalia)


Urban Sky said:


> What makes you think that this connection is the result of a cooperation between Nightjet and SNCF rather than a mere coincidence?


Indeed, it is simply a coincidence.
Paris - Wien (cooperation between ÖBB / DB / SNCF) is coming back in December 2021, Paris - Berlin in December 2023.


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## Just-Thinking-51

> border checks at the Swiss/Italian and French/Swiss border were common (although illegal by Schengen border laws...).



Pretty sure the very independent Swiss have never been in the Schengen Zone.


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## cirdan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Pretty sure the very independent Swiss have never been in the Schengen Zone.



incorrect . They joined in 2009 (I think )

but that said , I may be mistaken but I don’t think a Paris to Venice sleeper would take the route through Switzerland


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## Urban Sky

cirdan said:


> I think if you have a CIV ticket the connection will be honored , no matter the routing . You might have to buy that ticket from a travel agent or station though as I don’t think any online system will give it to you .
> 
> you can in fact book via any reasonable route and the same applies .
> 
> if you book the journey as two separate legs on totally different tickets then indeed if the train is late you are on your own .
> 
> that said, my experience with DB station staff in Germany is that they do go out of their way to help you , even if they don’t need to or have to . I once missed a night train entirely through my own stupidity and the kind lady in the ticket office worked out a way to get me onto a later train at only minimal extra cost .


Agreed, but I couldn't find any rail company which seems able (or willing) to sell you a CIV ticket which includes a seat in the TGV and a bed on the Nightjet. SNCF seems to be able to sell you a seat on the TGV and on the coaches of the Nightjet (which are actually operated by Deutsche Bahn directly as IC 60470, unlike the Sleepers which operate in the same train as NJ 470). The ticket price (for July 2nd) was 268€ (thus $330-ish) and if you wanted a bed (without forgoing the protection in case you miss your connection), you would have to pay for a separate ticket with Nightjet on top of that...




cirdan said:


> incorrect . They joined in 2009 (I think )


They indeed joined in 2009:

_"Switzerland was the 25th country from the European Union and European Free Trade Association to join the Schengen zone. It was set up to make travel between participating countries easier.

Aligning Swiss airports to the new system marks the final piece of the jigsaw that ended a process of preparation that stretched back to the signing of the agreement in 2004 and a positive referendum vote a year later."_



> but that said , I may be mistaken but I don’t think a Paris to Venice sleeper would take the route through Switzerland


The route via Dijon-Lausanne-Brig-Milan (i.e. through Switzerland) seems to be the most direct route, but this being a ÖBB service, I would believe that a routing via Strasbourg-Munich and then either Innsbruck-Verona or Salzburg-Villach is more probable...


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## slasher-fun

cirdan said:


> but that said , I may be mistaken but I don’t think a Paris to Venice sleeper would take the route through Switzerland


Well it does most of the time actually  Runs via Vallorbe and Domodossola (and sometimes via Modane when it's not going through Switzerland for whatever reason)


Urban Sky said:


> The route via Dijon-Lausanne-Brig-Milan (i.e. through Switzerland) seems to be the most direct route, but this being a ÖBB service, I would believe that a routing via Strasbourg-Munich and then either Innsbruck-Verona or Salzburg-Villach is more probable...


Paris - Venice has never been an ÖBB service : it was Artesia (SNCF / Trenitalia in cooperation), then Thello when Trenitalia wanted to get rid of SNCF (Transdev / Trenitalia, then Trenitalia on its own).
Running it via Munich would be extremely long compared to the route via Switerland or Modane 
No resumption of this service is planned so far, whatever the operator.


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## Just-Thinking-51

jis said:


> New network of European sleeper trains announced
> 
> 
> A French start-up aims to run ‘hotels on rails’ from Paris to 12 cities across Europe, including Edinburgh, from 2024
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com





slasher-fun said:


> No resumption of this service is planned so far, whatever the operator.


Correction there is a plan for trains from Paris to Venice and Paris to Rome. Just not by the last operator. This start up has funding available to them. So it a might be.









Midnight Trains | A hotel on rails


For comfortable and sustainable journeys.




www.midnight-trains.com


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## slasher-fun

Oops my mistake, I was only thinking about serious proposals, not the "we're launching a five stars night trains in 3 years even though there's definitely no rolling stock available at the moment" one, but I hope I'm wrong about them 
(Analysis of their plan: Midnight Trains - we wish them well, but where are the carriages needed going to come from? - Trains for Europe)


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## Just-Thinking-51

slasher-fun said:


> Oops my mistake, I was only thinking about serious proposals, not the "we're launching a five stars night trains in 3 years even though there's definitely no rolling stock available at the moment" one, but I hope I'm wrong about them
> (Analysis of their plan: Midnight Trains - we wish them well, but where are the carriages needed going to come from? - Trains for Europe)


Interesting story you linked. I guest those Multi-system locomotives that are available today, don’t include France. As for the rail stock. This group might have funds or not. If they do have funds then just build new would be the way to go. Siemens is back up, however there not the only builder and some


Spoiler












Home : Astra


About Us ASTRA Vagoane Călători has the main object of activity the construction, modernization and repair of rolling stock. We have developed, through our experience, the technical ability to cover all the fields necessary for the manufacture of rail vehicles. Railway wagons as well as casings...




avcactive.com







 seem to be ready with a quick turn around for Italy 200 kmh qualified railcars. As per your link story, I agree with the British and Spanish issue and would look into high speed trainset with a sleeper build, and a Talgo set for those counties.

They got a billionaire onboard it seem, so how much funding they can draw would be the key.


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## slasher-fun

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Interesting story you linked. I guest those Multi-system locomotives that are available today, don’t include France.


Well they do, but even the most multi-system locomotives are limited to a few countries. European countries has a very wide range of voltage (1,5 kV, 3 kV, 15 kV, 25 kV, with different pantograph specs) and signalling systems (pretty much every country has its own, and the common "ECTS" is far from being widely available). 
When an operator has a large set of a specific train, there's usually only a small subset that is qualified/certified for international services in specific countries (for example, within the set of latest bi-level TGV used by SNCF in France, some can go in Spain, some other can go in Germany, Switzerland, and Luxembourg, and some other can only go in Luxembourg: none of them could run from Spain to Switerland or Germany for example. Oh, and none of them can go in Belgium or Italy).
And I'm not talking about different railway gauges in Spain (except high-speed lines), Portugal, and ex-USSR countries....



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> As for the rail stock. This group might have funds or not. If they do have funds then just build new would be the way to go.
> [...]
> They got a billionaire onboard it seem, so how much funding they can draw would be the key.


The problem is that "everyone" is looking at buying night stock, and factories are already booked up on a first come first served basis. Deliveries from ÖBB order made in 2018 to Siemens for ~230 Nightjet coaches will only begin next year (yup, that's 4 years for the first trainset), and having a billionaire on the board won't change that.


Just-Thinking-51 said:


> would look into high speed trainset with a sleeper build


Well that's something that hasn't been done so far in Europe. I only see France, Italy, and Spain that have a network large enough for the high-speed to be really a plus, but at least in France high-speed lines are closed every night for maintenance...


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## George Harris

Commenting on the following:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> France is a hard place for open access operator. Flix Trains gave up on starting several routes, I read its was track access fees. The Italy operator Thello just threw in the towel on both there Day, and Night trains. So any start up is going to have issues with out a government contract or at least there cooperation.
> Also:
> Another problem with France is that the infrastructure part of SNCF is notoriously unpredictable . In the past night trains , even SNCF’s own ones, suffered last minute cancellations because of lines being closed for night time maintenance. If that happens too often passengers lose confidence .


Apparently true for all their system. A person I worked with several years ago spent several days in France with riding the TGV being a significant part of their trip. They came back extremely disappointed. 

And: Initially the track layout for the Taiwan High Speed Rail was done by a French-German group (after watching these in action you quit wondering why so many wars, and started wondering how they managed to have so few), basically using French operating concepts. After they were invited to go away, and not for the political reasons they claimed, a group formed by the Shinkansen came in and the system ultimately used their trains, signals, power, and track. One of their first questions was, "why so many 'escape hatches' in the system?" Truly after listing to all the French explanations it seemed to worthy of national news if a train made it through the day without breakdown. Among other things, their operational times were based on a certain percentage of traction motors being out of service. The Japanese looked at all this and said basically, if we are not 99.9999% sure the train will not reliably make it through the day, it will not go in service, and we make certain our shops perform thorough and timely maintenance. But then the Shinkansen has been operating much longer than the TGV and probably carries more passenger per day than the TGV does per month.


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## cirdan

depends what you call high speed .

Most modern cars being delivered today including sleeper cars are permitted for 200kmph which is about 125mph. Locomotives such as the OBB Taurus , which have also been sold to other countries including Hungary and Germany , can do more than that .

Thats not properly high speed of course but good enough to offer some competitive journey times .

The talgo sleeper trains as used for example on Berlin to Moscow can do that sort of speed too . Or could it the tracks were up to it .


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## cirdan

George Harris said:


> One of their first questions was, "why so many 'escape hatches' in the system?" Truly after listing to all the French explanations it seemed to worthy of national news if a train made it through the day without breakdown. Among other things, their operational times were based on a certain percentage of traction motors being out of service. The Japanese looked at all this and said basically, if we are not 99.9999% sure the train will not reliably make it through the day, it will not go in service, and we make certain our shops perform thorough and timely maintenance. But then the Shinkansen has been operating much longer than the TGV and probably carries more passenger per day than the TGV does per month.



this surprises me as the Shinkansen concept has pretty high levels of redundancy in everything . That’s part of the nature of and I expect their reason for going with the distributed traction concept from the beginning .


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## caravanman

Willbridge said:


> Before the bus bridge the conductor was informing us of it with her Saxon accent. There was a Chinese passenger who did not speak German and the _sehr ernst_ conductor struggled. The Chinese visitor's English was good and I had read about the reconstruction work on the former GDR line, so we teamed up on the bus bridge to Erfurt, where his uncle was waiting. The conductor indicated relief.


Languages are not my forte, so I too have appreciated translation help myself. In Spain, the train conductor struggled to explain in English how to transfer from the end of the line into Gibraltar. A spanish speaking American girl came to my aid. 
Another time in the Czech republic, the ticket collector tried to explain about a last minute alteration, and a young lady translated for me, and even accompanied me part way to point out my new train. 
Nothing lost in translation those times at least!


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## slasher-fun

George Harris said:


> But then the Shinkansen has been operating much longer than the TGV.


But the Shinkansen only reached "high-speed" (> 249 kph) in 1992 (300 series, running at 270 kph), while TGV has been running high-speed since 1981 (then at 270 kph).


George Harris said:


> and probably carries more passenger per day than the TGV does per month.


TGV carries 10 times more passengers per month than the Shinkansen does per day (so in other words, the Shinkansen carries 3 times more passengers per day than the TGV)


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## Mailliw

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Correction there is a plan for trains from Paris to Venice and Paris to Rome. Just not by the last operator. This start up has funding available to them. So it a might be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight Trains | A hotel on rails
> 
> 
> For comfortable and sustainable journeys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.midnight-trains.com


Midnight Trains certainly seems intriguing, but I'm a bit concerned there was no mention of economy accommodations. That raises doubts about viability.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Mailliw said:


> Midnight Trains certainly seems intriguing, but I'm a bit concerned there was no mention of economy accommodations. That raises doubts about viability.



Oh I am sure there will be a section for the common folks, if they are running 7 days a week. It just might have a different branding or exterior paint scheme.

Bad use of wording?


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## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Oh I am sure there will be a section for the common folks, if they are running 7 days a week. It just might have a different branding or exterior color.


People around here on AU have conniptions hearing the very thought of different external colors. The collective OCD kicks in pronto.


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## Bob Dylan

caravanman said:


> Languages are not my forte, so I too have appreciated translation help myself. In Spain, the train conductor struggled to explain in English how to transfer from the end of the line into Gibraltar. A spanish speaking American girl came to my aid.
> Another time in the Czech republic, the ticket collector tried to explain about a last minute alteration, and a young lady translated for me, and even accompanied me part way to point out my new train.
> Nothing lost in translation those times at least!


Who translates for you here in the Colonies Eddie?


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## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Who translates for you here in the Colonies Eddie?


More interestingly, who does it in the Colonies of South Asia?


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## cirdan

Talking about languages .

One day when I was on the euro city from Vienna to Budapest the train stopped in the middle of nowhere just a few minutes after crossing the Hungarian border . There were several confusing announcements and after a. very long time the train set of backwards back to the border station where we were requested to change to a different train .

This was communicated to us by more confusing announcements by train staff who didn’t know much German and hardly any English and said things that frankly made no sense using words that don’t actually exist . There was an American couple in the same car as myself and they didn’t understand what was going on . So I did my best to translate . I have learnt some Hungarian but it’s really not good . But I managed to find a conductor and ask what was going on and did my best to translate .

Somehow word got around that there was actually somebody who understood and could translate and soon lots of other people were coming to me with questions and I did my best to help them as well as I could .

so I guess I was the hero of the day .


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## George Harris

Well, I see my positive comparison of Shinkansen to TGV caused a little uproar, so here are some explanations:

Why the TGV, or anybody else with overhead electric chooses to operate power car plus non-powered coaches is beyond me. The "distributed power", in other words EMU (electrical multiple unit) concept makes much more sense for several reasons: First power to weight ratio relatively consistent with varying train length. With motors on all or most axles, you have eliminated/reduced adhesion issues at high speed and with wet/icey rail conditions. Incidentally the Shinkansen end cars are not powered, as they would have lower adhesion than the cars behind the first unit. The Shinkansen sets are quite capable of running smoothly at 300 km/hr+. Riding the Taiwan trains both during testing and after regular service started, there is no sense of really high speed unless you are looking out the window and watching the catenary poles go by like fenceposts. 

The lower speed prevailing on most of Japan's Shinkansen lines is due to alignment geometry, not ability of the equipment. Remember, when the Shinkansen lines were first built 200 km/hr was essentially considered the edge of the earth so far as practical speed on rails was concerned. Obviously we now know that is not true, and a lot of that knowledge was gained by observation and experimentation on these same Shinkansen tracks, but there is a practical limit of comfort, which is significantly lower than the practical limit for safety, on curves, and the Japanese are pretty well stuck with the alignments from when first built.

There may be mechanical redundancy in the equipment, however, again, the Japanese concept is that there will be NO on line failures other than due to catastrophe. There have to my knowledge been only two Shinkansen set derailments, ever, and in both cases earthquakes were involved. As to their rate of on-line failures, I don't know but I do know the Japanese considered the French insistence for provision of escape tracks at the exit end of all station tracks for stashing on-line failed equipment to be nuts.


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## AFriendly

This is such good news all in all. Once again, Europe is leading the way...this kind of service expands the reach of rail as an alternative to air travel between a whole new class of endpoint pairs. I wonder how long it will take for North Americans to figure out that there's so much more to high(er)-speed rail than just day trains. My last experience with this kind of train was the _Palatino_ from Rome to Paris, which I believe is now branded as Thello but is still basically the same train I took back in 2009. Service was basic (food cart wheeled past each compartment with snacks and drinks, tray breakfast) but unobtrusive and perfectly adequate for a dusk-to-dawn trip. I don't recall being awakened for anything...went to bed in Italy, woke up in Paris.


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## slasher-fun

AFriendly said:


> I wonder how long it will take for North Americans to figure out that there's so much more to high(er)-speed rail than just day trains. My last experience with this kind of train was the _Palatino_ from Rome to Paris


Which has never been a high(er)-speed train, its max speed was 160 kph / 99 mph  (I don't think there are many 200 kph / 124 mph night trains in Europe, and there's definitely none (with proper night stock) going faster than that)


AFriendly said:


> which I believe is now branded as Thello but is still basically the same train I took back in 2009.


No, it was discontinued in 2012 (end of Artesia), restored in 2013 (by Thello), and then discontinued again in 2014.


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## cirdan

slasher-fun said:


> Which has never been a high(er)-speed train, its max speed was 160 kph / 99 mph  (I don't think there are many 200 kph / 124 mph night trains in Europe,



There aren't many now. But new cars being ordered today will hopefully still be around in 30 years or more, so it's about future proofing.


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## caravanman

Bob Dylan said:


> Who translates for you here in the Colonies Eddie?



Dunno, I guess I might be better at languages than I realised!  



jis said:


> More interestingly, who does it in the Colonies of South Asia?



India can be more tricky. I loved the old fashioned English words still in use when I first visited in 1983. Recently, although English is very widely spoken, accents can be tricky to tune in to. I love to hear a stream of Hindi, punctuated by a few English words!


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## jis

caravanman said:


> India can be more tricky. I loved the old fashioned English words still in use when I first visited in 1983. Recently, although English is very widely spoken, accents can be tricky to tune in to. I love to hear a stream of Hindi, punctuated by a few English words!


India has its own "English" or "Inglish" as the case may be, with almost as many people speaking a smattering of it there as there are English speakers in the US. It has its own unique set of additional words, phrases and constructs, not even to speak of the accents. It is generally easy to guess where a person comes from in India from their English accent. Afterall India is almost a continent unto itself. In the series that PBS did on the English language, they devoted one complete episode on "Inglish".

Then there is the unique mixed grammar sentences between English and some regional language or the other or two. This gets exciting because the English sentence form is SVO (Subject - Verb - Object) whereas most Indian languages have a sentence form SOV. So you can guess what happens when you create mixed sentences. Some are SVO and some are SOV with the right words in whatever language plugged into their appropriate spot. It is fascinating really. But to us who have been brought up since birth in that environment, we don't even notice the jumble and carry on merrily leaving others baffled from time to time. Fortunately we don't usually do this in the presence of people who are not fluent in the languages involved.

This also goes to show how misplaced the worries of monolinguals are about the "confusion" caused by knowing more than one language. It is confusion as it appears to the monolinguals alone. It all is quite natural to the ones using multiple languages. Afterall languages were spoken well before anyone dreamed up documenting the grammar. The first documented grammar was allegedly put together by the sage Panini for the Sanskrit language.


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## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> India has its own "English" or "Inglish" as the case may be, with almost as many people speaking a smattering of it there as there are English speakers in the US. It has its own unique set of additional words, phrases and constructs, not even to speak of the accents. It is generally easy to guess where a person comes from in India from their English accent. Afterall India is almost a continent unto itself. In the series that PBS did on the English language, they devoted one complete episode on "Inglish".
> 
> Then there the unique mixed grammar sentences between English and some regional language or the other or two. This gets exciting because the English sentence form is SVO (Subject - Verb - Object) whereas most Indian languages have a sentence form SOV. So you can guess what happens when you create mixed sentences. Some are SVO and some are SOV with the right words in whatever language plugged into their appropriate spot. It is fascinating really. But to us who have been brought up since birth in that environment, we don't even notice the jumble and carry on merrily leaving others baffled from time to time. Fortunately we don;t do this in the presence of people who are not fluent in all the languages involved, usually.
> 
> This also goes to show how misplaced the worries of monolinguals are about the "confusion" caused by knowing more than one language. It is confusion as it appears to the monolinguals alone. It all is quite natural to the ones using multiple languages. Afterall languages were spoken well before anyone dreamed up documenting the grammar. The first documented grammar was allegedly put together by the sage Panini for the Sanskrit language.


Same thing in Mexico, where there are Local and Regional Versions of Spanish,English,Spanglish and TexMex, and Multiple Mixtures of Slang and different meanings for the same Words..

Not to mention the fact that many of the descendents of the Original inhabitants, the Indios,don't speak English or Spanish but multiple dialects of their Native Languages.


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## west point

Watching all the English language series from the UK is interesting. One biggie for us is the lack of usage of word == the. Example in last sentence. But going to hospital, pub, train station, etc. It can be confusing.


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## west point

When we rode night trains in Europe the short routes would have make up time at a station. We actually spent 2 - 3 hours not moving but got to destination on time. Wonder if some older TGV type trains could be modified for sleeping and make runs of 500 - 600 miles at night ?


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## slasher-fun

Well that's already the distance covered by conventional rolling stock


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## cirdan

west point said:


> When we rode night trains in Europe the short routes would have make up time at a station. We actually spent 2 - 3 hours not moving but got to destination on time. Wonder if some older TGV type trains could be modified for sleeping and make runs of 500 - 600 miles at night ?



Before RENFE started pulling out of the whole night train business and the Trenhotel was still a brand they were proud of, there was talk of Barcelona to Brussels and I think even Barcelona to Berlin night trains using a new generation of Talgo sleepers. I haven't done the calculations but am assuming that such a train would have required at least some stretches of faster running, especially seeing high speed lines are not available contiguously all the way.


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## west point

About conversion' ; Is the TGV mail train(s) still operating ?/


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## Bob Dylan

west point said:


> When we rode night trains in Europe the short routes would have make up time at a station. We actually spent 2 - 3 hours not moving but got to destination on time. Wonder if some older TGV type trains could be modified for sleeping and make runs of 500 - 600 miles at night ?


This is what the VIA Night Train between Montreal and Toronto used to do.

It would leave Montreal around 10pm, stop and spend most of the night @ Brockville, then arrive into Toronto @ 8AM for a Cross Platform transfer to the Canadian on the days it ran!

I really enjoyed this Train the times I rode it!( after riding the Adirondack from NYP)


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## slasher-fun

cirdan said:


> Before RENFE started pulling out of the whole night train business and the Trenhotel was still a brand they were proud of, there was talk of Barcelona to Brussels and I think even Barcelona to Berlin night trains using a new generation of Talgo sleepers. I haven't done the calculations but am assuming that such a train would have required at least some stretches of faster running, especially seeing high speed lines are not available contiguously all the way.


An hypothetical Berlin-Barcelona high-speed train would take 15 hours with the current infrastructure...
Bruxelles-Barcelona would be easier.


west point said:


> About conversion' ; Is the TGV mail train(s) still operating ?/


No, discontinued in 2015, as there was not enough "next business day" mail to carry anymore to make it economically sustainable.


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## cirdan

west point said:


> About conversion' ; Is the TGV mail train(s) still operating ?/



nope, discontinued a few years ago.

I think there was a private operator who stepped up and wanted to use the trains for parcels but nothing ever came of it.


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## slasher-fun

Not exactly a private operator: Euro Carex is a project for an European HSR freight network, but so far... nothing.




__





EURO CAREX : Cargo Rail Express






www.eurocarex.fr


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## Just-Thinking-51

> Brand new sleeper trains are now under construction by Siemens, the first 13 7-car sets are due in service on routes from Vienna & Munich to Italy from December 2022 with another 20 7-car sets to be delivered for other routes after that. The new trains consist of 7 car sets: 2 sleepers (each with 10 compartments, all with en suite shower & toilet), 3 couchette cars (with 3 x 4-berth compartments and 28 x innovative sole-occupancy capsules or 'minisuites'), 1 multi-purpose car (with low-floor entry, an accessible couchette compartment & accessible toilet, some seating), and 1 seats car. For more information on these new trains, see this page on www.nightjet.com.



This is from Seat61.

So in recap the pods sleeper and traditional Couchette are contain in the same railcar. The sleepers are all deluxe rooms. There is now a accessible sleeper with the odds and ends, and a full coach. Also Seat61 has a link to a video of the new design.


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## west point

7 car train sets will allow some to double up for some or all of a route.


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## Anderson

west point said:


> 7 car train sets will allow some to double up for some or all of a route.


And the subsequent 20-car order suggests this is the plan. Since they're going with "sets" vs "cars", I'm guessing that they'll be able to run some "double sets" together, but the service capacity "step" isn't a full 14-car train so they can move capacity around a bit more efficiently on a day-to-day or season-to-season basis.

And is it just me or do those couchette-variant cars sound an _awful_ lot like a Slumbercoach?


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## cirdan

Anderson said:


> And the subsequent 20-car order suggests this is the plan. Since they're going with "sets" vs "cars", I'm guessing that they'll be able to run some "double sets" together, but the service capacity "step" isn't a full 14-car train so they can move capacity around a bit more efficiently on a day-to-day or season-to-season basis.
> 
> And is it just me or do those couchette-variant cars sound an _awful_ lot like a Slumbercoach?



I think the "double sets" comes from the fact that many night trains run combined for sections of the route. For example when I rode the Nighjet from Vienna to Zürich I was surprised to discover that on leaving Vienna, the same train also had a portion for Munich and a portion for Venice. On arriving in Zurich there was a portion from Prague and a portion from Budapest. Being able to combine sections presumably saves manning and track access costs.


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## Anderson

cirdan said:


> I think the "double sets" comes from the fact that many night trains run combined for sections of the route. For example when I rode the Nighjet from Vienna to Zürich I was surprised to discover that on leaving Vienna, the same train also had a portion for Munich and a portion for Venice. On arriving in Zurich there was a portion from Prague and a portion from Budapest. Being able to combine sections presumably saves manning and track access costs.


Oh, that's got nothing on the mess the trains running through Prague do. IIRC there was a car for Dresden/Berlin (mine), a car for Warsaw, a car for Krakow, and I think there was one other (Danzig, maybe?). The whole mess met up with a few other trains in Prague, they swapped cars, and a decent-sized train turned up in Berlin all the same.


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## Anderson

George Harris said:


> Commenting on the following:
> 
> Apparently true for all their system. A person I worked with several years ago spent several days in France with riding the TGV being a significant part of their trip. They came back extremely disappointed.
> 
> And: Initially the track layout for the Taiwan High Speed Rail was done by a French-German group (after watching these in action you quit wondering why so many wars, and started wondering how they managed to have so few), basically using French operating concepts. After they were invited to go away, and not for the political reasons they claimed, a group formed by the Shinkansen came in and the system ultimately used their trains, signals, power, and track. One of their first questions was, "why so many 'escape hatches' in the system?" Truly after listing to all the French explanations it seemed to worthy of national news if a train made it through the day without breakdown. Among other things, their operational times were based on a certain percentage of traction motors being out of service. The Japanese looked at all this and said basically, if we are not 99.9999% sure the train will not reliably make it through the day, it will not go in service, and we make certain our shops perform thorough and timely maintenance. But then the Shinkansen has been operating much longer than the TGV and probably carries more passenger per day than the TGV does per month.


I think there were probably _cultural_ issues at issue, not _political_ issues. Remember, Taiwan was owned by Japan for over half a century...there's a lot of cultural affinity there, and I think it ultimately meant that the Japanese operating principles meshed better than did the French operating principles.


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## Seaboard92

I think there is a gigantic market for night trains in Europe. Now Eastern Europe never really moved away from the night train whereas western europe did. Central Europe held onto them longer than most and that is where we are seeing the rebirth of them. OBB has done a great service by providing night trains but it can't be the catch all end all of their development either. 

What made Deutsche Bahn a really good operator is they are the country that is between western and eastern Europe and they are large enough that they can have more than one hub. München, Frankfurt, Köln, and Berlin are all natural hubs that all have a connection be it cultural, touristic, or business between the other large cities of Europe like Rome, Venice, Paris, Brussels, Warsaw, Budapest, among others. Germany had a good location for a hub and spoke network because it is in Central Europe which is essentially a gigantic crossroads. Which is also why most of the larger wars in human history like the 30 Years War occurred on German soil. Basically Germany is the equivalent of Chicago to the rail network of the USA. It's super big, and in the dead center of it all. 

Austria is just a bit too far south to really play into the hub and spoke system so while it is great that OBB has saved the Night Train it's growth is relatively stunted because of it's location in Europe. Unless NightJet becomes an open access operator serving domestic markets and fifth freedom routes outside of Austria/Germany. 

The biggest hub I see in Western Europe is Paris, with a very small more regional in nature hub in Barcelona. 

In Central Europe Zürich stands out to me as somewhere that has a lot of growth potential. Somewhere I have made an interactive map of European night services. I should find that again. If I remember right Romania had a lot of trains.


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## Mailliw

I found another article on Midnight Trains; it appears they are going to have capsule sleeper option like Nightjet. That's a good sign.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Add on order? Nobody has a capsule sleeper yet, nothing but a few drawings so far. These folks have money behind them, however the emails you can sign up from them are romantic tales of past rail travels.


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## Seaboard92

I think the new Russian 3rd Class Sleepers were moving more towards the capsule


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## Willbridge

Seaboard92 said:


> I think there is a gigantic market for night trains in Europe. Now Eastern Europe never really moved away from the night train whereas western europe did. Central Europe held onto them longer than most and that is where we are seeing the rebirth of them. OBB has done a great service by providing night trains but it can't be the catch all end all of their development either.
> 
> What made Deutsche Bahn a really good operator is they are the country that is between western and eastern Europe and they are large enough that they can have more than one hub. München, Frankfurt, Köln, and Berlin are all natural hubs that all have a connection be it cultural, touristic, or business between the other large cities of Europe like Rome, Venice, Paris, Brussels, Warsaw, Budapest, among others. Germany had a good location for a hub and spoke network because it is in Central Europe which is essentially a gigantic crossroads. Which is also why most of the larger wars in human history like the 30 Years War occurred on German soil. Basically Germany is the equivalent of Chicago to the rail network of the USA. It's super big, and in the dead center of it all.
> 
> Austria is just a bit too far south to really play into the hub and spoke system so while it is great that OBB has saved the Night Train it's growth is relatively stunted because of it's location in Europe. Unless NightJet becomes an open access operator serving domestic markets and fifth freedom routes outside of Austria/Germany.
> 
> The biggest hub I see in Western Europe is Paris, with a very small more regional in nature hub in Barcelona.
> 
> In Central Europe Zürich stands out to me as somewhere that has a lot of growth potential. Somewhere I have made an interactive map of European night services. I should find that again. If I remember right Romania had a lot of trains.


Berlin is the Chicago of Europe in a lot of ways, though Americans mainly think of its government role. Metropolitan Berlin was tapped by commuter rail lines before the initial subway U-Bahn lines were built. One of the many reasons that the former German Democratic Republic wanted the western Allies out of Berlin in the Cold War was that we could watch their freight traffic that had to move on the Outer Ring Line, the German counterpart to the Elgin, Joliet & Eastern.

It was disappointing when the Deutsche Bahn played "Southern Pacific" in its treatment of CityNightLine. At the end the Amsterdam<>Berlin train was a stop on the Amsterdam<>Warsaw route, with an eastbound Berlin arrival before much of the transit system was up and running.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Keeping the Siemens Factory busy.
News release from Siemens.




> We’re happy to announce that we will build 20 additional night #trains for @unsereOEBB
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A total of 33 next-generation #Nightjets will be in service by 2025, providing eco-friendly overnight connections in Europe.


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## Mailliw

Great news! I can't wait to see more pics and layouts of the actual cars.


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## Willbridge

_International Railway Journal _in the July issue reports that the Dutch and Belgian sleeper line start-ups have agreed to merge as European Sleeper. Cooperating with RegioJet they would start with a Brussels<>Amsterdam<>Berlin<>Prague line. Reading between the lines, both firms were discovering how difficult it is to set up a rail service on someone else's tracks.

In the meantime a private French start-up called Midnight Trains is going through the same struggle.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Willbridge said:


> _International Railway Journal _in the July issue reports that the Dutch and Belgian sleeper line start-ups have agreed to merge as European Sleeper. Cooperating with RegioJet they would start with a Brussels<>Amsterdam<>Berlin<>Prague line. Reading between the lines, both firms were discovering how difficult it is to set up a rail service on someone else's tracks.



European Sleeper has the easy part, just hook on to a RegioJet train, and provide service. There biggest issue is RegioJet may replace them at some point.



> In the meantime a private French start-up called Midnight Trains is going through the same struggle.



Midnight Trains has a bigger issue, as there selling up-scale service and equipment in France. Best of luck to them.


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## Mailliw

OBB just dropped a clip of the new Nightjet interiors on YouTube.


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## cirdan

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Midnight Trains has a bigger issue, as there selling up-scale service and equipment in France. Best of luck to them.



Providing any independent rail service in France is a nightmare, upscale or not. The entire access system is tilted to favor the incumbent.


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## Mailliw

Also Paris doesn't have a central train station they could use as a hub.


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