# Southwest Chief #4



## gswager (Sep 16, 2002)

I've posted my train trip report on OTOC website.

Also, I saw Colorado Railcar at ABQ trainyard.  Will post picture later.


----------



## Amfleet (Sep 16, 2002)

Nice report. B)


----------



## Bill Haithcoat (Sep 16, 2002)

Good report, Gswager. That route has a long tradition of good service...looks like you found things in good shape for that trip.


----------



## Viewliner (Sep 16, 2002)

Good report glad to see you enjoyed your trip for the most part.


----------



## Bill Haithcoat (Sep 16, 2002)

Two questions, gswager. One, the Albuquerque station burned (to the ground,I thhnk) several years ago....What kind of facility is there now? Secondly, the the local native Americans used to sell their wares at the station during the relatively long statin stops. Did you notice if that is still happening?


----------



## gswager (Sep 17, 2002)

Yeah, I vaguely remember that one, but I'm not exactly sure if it is north or south side of Amtrak passenger building (waiting, ticketing, & baggage). If it is south side, then it has a office trailer for Amtrak business. If it is north side, it is a brand new city bus station (bigger than station).

Alvadero Transportation Phase I is completed (for city buses), and want to start working on Phase II for Greyhound and Amtrak. Problem with the Amtrak part is Amtrak don't want to pay for fuel station due to its financial crunch. Albuquerque has to renegogiate with Amtrak about it.

For local native Americans wares, yes, they still do at the platform and by the station.


----------



## AlanB (Sep 17, 2002)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Two questions, gswager. One, the Albuquerque station burned (to the ground,I thhnk) several years ago....What kind of facility is there now?


Bill,

You can check out this article from NCI's Destination Freedom Newsletter for more on the current status of Albuguerque's new station.


----------



## gswager (Oct 10, 2002)

Finally, I've posted two pictures on my trip


----------



## Bill Haithcoat (Oct 11, 2002)

I enjoyed your report. I enjoy that train and I also enjoyed Albuquerque, the one time I actually visited it a fefw years ago(as opposed to just passing through onthe train).


----------



## Bill Haithcoat (Oct 11, 2002)

Gswager, tell us more about this Colorado railrcar. What is it? Where does it go? How long has it been around? Was it built for that service originally or is it a rebuild from something else?


----------



## AlanB (Oct 11, 2002)

Bill,

This is a relatively new car, in fact it seems to me that it was first announced over the summer. This is a self propelled DMU unit and is being marketed as the answer for commuter railroads. The cars can be built in either single or double level configurations. While I don't know in New Jersey is actually looking at them with interest, one of these cars is currently in NJ for demo runs and displays.

You can read more about the cars and their specs, in addition to some nice pictures at the company website located here.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 11, 2002)

It is a nice trip report. Alan, any idea on what NJ Transit lines specifically have the dmu running/or displayed?


----------



## AlanB (Oct 11, 2002)

> New Jersey Transit's reluctance notwithstanding, diesel multiple-unit (DMU) trains will get their test runs in this week in Bergen County, courtesy of the county, New York, Susquehanna & Western Railroad, Colorado Railcar Manufacturing LLC -- and NJ-ARP.
> Bergen County will welcome local and state political officials, local media, and select local residents to view, tour, and discuss Colorado Railcar's prototype DMU car Thursday the 10th and Friday the 11th; Friday's agenda includes a test run from Hackensack (and possibly Bogota) to Hawthorne (in neighboring Passaic County).
> 
> The DMU will also be on public display in Hackensack Saturday, Oct. 12, coinciding with an annual city festival. Prior to the day's events, NJ-ARP members registered for the group's annual meeting will get their own tour of the Colorado Railcar prototype. NJ-ARP members: Bring your questions and concerns with you!


Viewliner,

You can read the full story from NJ ARP here.


----------



## Superliner Diner (Oct 11, 2002)

The Colorado Railcar prototype is on display on Saturday 10/12 in Hackensack, and is reportedly supposed to be somewhere else on NJ TRANSIT property in static display on Monday the 14th. Nobody is saying defintively where it might be, but Newark Penn Station has been speculated. Note that the 14th is Columbus Day, so some may be off work or school and available to go see it.


----------



## AlanB (Oct 11, 2002)

Superliner Diner said:


> The Colorado Railcar prototype is on display on Saturday 10/12 in Hackensack, and is reportedly supposed to be somewhere else on NJ TRANSIT property in static display on Monday the 14th. Nobody is saying defintively where it might be, but Newark Penn Station has been speculated. Note that the 14th is Columbus Day, so some may be off work or school and available to go see it.


Isn't Newark's Penn station Amtrak property?

Now Hoboken would be a good place for it to be on display.


----------



## gswager (Oct 11, 2002)

I haven't heard or read news about CO Railcar within New Mexico, so I assumed it is overnight stop or something like that.

Denver was very interested about it for its commuter track.

AlanB is right about it, it just came out of factory for display.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 11, 2002)

AlanB said:


> Superliner Diner said:
> 
> 
> > The Colorado Railcar prototype is on display on Saturday 10/12 in Hackensack, and is reportedly supposed to be somewhere else on NJ TRANSIT property in static display on Monday the 14th.  Nobody is saying defintively where it might be, but Newark Penn Station has been speculated.  Note that the 14th is Columbus Day, so some may be off work or school and available to go see it.
> ...


I agree, Hoboken would be a good place, because all the lines (except the Atlantic City, NEC via connection) have access to it. I don't have the 14th off, so it looks like Sunday would be my best chance, although that probably won't happen. I think NJ Transit could use some new Electric MU's.

Also heres a thought, too bad nobody has come up with the technology for diesel-electric locomotives that can run off of the catenary wires.


----------



## Amfleet (Oct 11, 2002)

Miami Jos has told us that Colorodo Rail Man. desgns and builds poor equipment. The same company built the Florida Fun Train which he worked on.


----------



## gswager (Oct 11, 2002)

Amfleet said:


> Miami Jos has told us that Colorodo Rail Man. desgns and builds poor equipment. The same company built the Florida Fun Train which he worked on.


Is it referring to double deck? Has CO Railcar making any improvements?

Please specify on what problems that Florida Fun Train occurred with CO Railcar.


----------



## Amfleet (Oct 11, 2002)

I remember Joe metioning the biggest design flaw was the coupler hight was way off. Also the cars were built with numerous electirical problems I believe.


----------



## AlanB (Oct 11, 2002)

Viewliner said:


> I agree, Hoboken would be a good place, because all the lines (except the Atlantic City, NEC via connection) have access to it. I don't have the 14th off, so it looks like Sunday would be my best chance, although that probably won't happen. I think NJ Transit could use some new Electric MU's.
> Also heres a thought, too bad nobody has come up with the technology for diesel-electric locomotives that can run off of the catenary wires.


Viewliner,

For reasons that no one can explain, NJT had decided that they don't want MU's anymore. They are moving everything over to push/pull cars. Mind you now, the MTA loves MU and buys very little in the way of push/pull equipment. But someone in Jersey think's that push/pull is the way to go. This started before Warrington's return too.

As for the diesel-electric cat engines, the technology does already exist to build them. Remeber that we already have dual mode engines for Amtrak, the LIRR, and Metro North. Granted these draw power off of the third rail, but the general concept is the same. The problem is the fact that the need for those types of engines is very limited. In fact I think here in the NE is the only area of the country that would have such a need right now. This makes the cost of building the engine very high. So to date no one has wanted to make that expense.

I have heard reports however, that NJT is looking at such an engine so they can provide a Midtown Direct service on the Raritan Valley line. It's either that or electify the whole line to Raritan. I suspect that buying dual mode engines would still be cheaper than electrifying the whole line.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 11, 2002)

AlanB said:


> Viewliner said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, Hoboken would be a good place, because all the lines (except the Atlantic City, NEC via connection) have access to it.  I don't have the 14th off, so it looks like Sunday would be my best chance, although that probably won't happen.  I think NJ Transit could use some new Electric MU's.
> ...


Is there advatage to push-pull vs. mu's or vice versa?

Also do you have a source to that Raritan Valley story. If its true, then wouldn't that technology be usable on other lines in the long run, like the North Jersey Coast Line, between Long Branch and Bay Head?

I know about the third-rail technology. It would be convienient not to have to lose power on the long distances.


----------



## Amfleet (Oct 11, 2002)

MU's also probably require more mantainence than a train consisting of a locomotive and 8-10 cars.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 11, 2002)

Yeah, you're probably right, they also must cost more.



> Amtrak, Have A Sense Of Humor About It


Okay :lol:


----------



## AlanB (Oct 11, 2002)

Mu's do cost more and they do require some extra maintenance that you don't get with Push/Pull. I suspect however, that once you factor in the cost of an engine powerful enough to pull 10 p/p's, that the cost difference between the two consist is minimal.

The MU's do however have several advantages over p/p train sets. As we've noted elsewhere on this forum, when an engine dies you just sit there. With MU's, you've always got a spare engine with you. In fact you've got several spare's with you. I think that I remember reading some where that one working MU can pull 4 or 5 dead ones. It won't be going fast, but at least you can make the next station.

Secondly, and this is a biggie for commuters, zero to 60 happens a whole lot faster with MU's than a single engine. Not only do you have more power with the MU's, but every wheel in the consist is powered. With p/p's only the wheels on the engine are powered, so you can't accelerate as fast or you'd just spin your wheels. Track gang's just love those flat spots on the rails caused by someone accelerating too fast, and you can damage the wheels too.

Viewliner,

Yes those engines would work for the Coast line. Also if they ever build another Hudson River tunnel they could probably be used on the Bergan line too, along with a track connection near Secacus.



> The Raritan Valley line once direct access to New York's Penn Station is achieved either by electrification or with dual-mode diesel and electric locomotives; and,


You can view the whole story which is really about connecting PATH from the WTC to the NYC Lexington Avenue Subway here from NJ ARP. Scroll about 2/3 of the way down.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 11, 2002)

Do the p/p's have any advantages over the MU's?

As for the Access to the Regions core, it would probably work best if both two track tunnels, and Grand Central were connected. It would be nice to see Amtrak/NJ Transit service at Grand Central.


----------



## Amfleet (Oct 11, 2002)

Amtrak couldn't use GC because it's not a thru station. It's tracks run perpendicualr to Penn's. If NJ transit wanted to use GC then they would have to come into Penn, back down along GC and pull into GC's platforms. I think GC;s doing fine with Metro N.


----------



## AlanB (Oct 11, 2002)

P/P's are of course cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate when one doesn't factor in the cost of the engine. Beyond that I'm not real sure if they have any other advantages over a MU. I guess the fact that you can take just one p/p car out for servicing could be considered an advantage too. MU’s must operate in a pair, so if one car needs service, its mate must go with it even if it doesn’t have a problem.

While it's still a long way off, if it ever happens, the overall regional transportation plans do include a proposal to link Penn with GC. This would allow for NJT trains to reach GC and Metro North trains to reach Penn. It would also decrease the number of passengers hitting the subway to get from one station to the other.

The real dreamers actually still hope to see NJT trains run up into Westchester on MN and out into Long Island over the LIRR. They also want to see the reverse of that, with MTA trains running into NJ. This idea of course while nice, is an extremely long way off. First of all you need the cooperation of two states, multiple agencies, and then you've got to deal with the incompatible power sources with the three transit companies. Currently not even the LIRR and MN can share MU consists, even though both are owned by the MTA. The reason for this is MN uses a third rail where the shoe runs under the rail. The LIRR, like the subway, uses a third rail where the shoe runs on top of the rail. Then of course NJT doesn't even know what a third rail is. Everything they have that's electrically powered is cat based.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 11, 2002)

Would be nice, but screwed up, don't forget Metro-North/NJT work together on the Pascack Valley and Port Jervis Lines.

I'd like to see all NJT lines electrified with two additional tracks in to NYP, and the NYG link.

First Electrify the rest of the Montclair/Booton line, Hackettstown-Dover and North Jersey Coast Line.

Second, electrify/dual mode service on the rest of the lines.

Finally with the intro of NJT Clockers, direct NYP/NYG-Philadelphia-ACY direct service, again electric/dual mode service, and of course have access to the ACRL through the other end of 30th Street.

Then some of the extensions proposed by NJT.


----------



## AlanB (Oct 12, 2002)

Here's a couple of figures on new cars.

The new Comet V push/pull cars that NJT is buying cost just under $900, 000 dollars for the trailer cars. A cab control car costs 1.05M per car. The new ALP-46 loco's cost 4.7 million a piece.

I found this info on the NJT website here. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Now for the MTA's new M-7's, which are currently undergoing testing on the LIRR. These new state of the art MU's cost just under 2M a piece, so there is no doubt that they cost more. However, as I pointed out their performance is better than NJT's p/p equipment. Especially when you've got stations that are less than a mile apart.

The MTA's numbers come from their captial improvement plan located here. Scroll down to table 5 and right under that they tell you the total cost of the contract and how many cars that buys.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 12, 2002)

I found this article which might clarify the purpose of the DMU being where it is.


----------



## AlanB (Oct 12, 2002)

Interesting read Viewliner, although I think that politician is dreaming a little too much. If all the short little lines he wants are near businesses so that he gets lots of local, one town to the next, commuters then it might work. If he expects people to hop on the DMU, then transfer to a Bergen line only to have to transfer again in Secaucus to reach Manhattan, then he’s dreaming. People want a one-seat ride; many will tolerate a two-seat ride. However, there are very few people who are going to settle for a three-seat ride. Especially when they may still have to ride a subway once they get into NY.

With all those transfers you’re talking about a two-hour commute from Passaic to NY. You can do that in your car in the same amount of time with rush hour traffic, or you could just drive to the nearest Bergen line station. So why would you want to take the train? Trains need to be frequent, reliable, and convenient to work. Three transfers are not what I would consider convenient. Yes as a rail fan I’d still ride it once for the fun of it, but I’m not sure that I’d want to commute every day like that.

That’s not saying that I don’t think that the DMU has its place, but I’m not sure if that place is Bergen & Passaic counties in NJ.


----------



## gswager (Oct 12, 2002)

Definitions:

Push-n-Pull- is it referring to a locomotive with its cab on one end of commuter cars and on other end is a cab in a commuter car, just like LA Metrolink?

MU- ???


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 12, 2002)

gswager said:


> Definitions:
> Push-n-Pull- is it referring to a locomotive with its cab on one end of commuter cars and on other end is a cab in a commuter car, just like LA Metrolink?
> 
> MU- ???


Push/Pull- Locomotive on one end, and a cab car (coach with controls) on the other. Can move either direction without having to turn around.

MU (Mulitiple Unit)- Train with no locomotive, each car has motor in it, and could power the train in the event that one motor fails.


----------



## Superliner Diner (Oct 12, 2002)

> Finally with the intro of NJT Clockers, direct NYP/NYG-Philadelphia-ACY direct service, again electric/dual mode service, and of course have access to the ACRL through the other end of 30th Street.


Viewliner,

How do you propose access to the Atlantic City line from the other end of 30th Street Station? How would the trains get past the river? The track to the ACRL now splits at Shore Interlocking in North Philadelphia. The tower & switch are approximately where Amtrak's NEC crosses under the Frankford Elevated (Blue Line). That is well to the north of 30th Street. The current ACRL route takes such a circuitous routing that it actually took George Washington less time to cross the Delaware than one NJT train on the Delair Bridge, which itself has permanent slow orders.

There has been discussion about having the ACRL trains stop at the North Philadelphia station, and have cross-platform transfers there with the Clockers (even while they are still operated by Amtrak). But North Philadelphia is not the greatest of neighborhoods, and so it's probably safer to make the switch at 30th Street, albeit with all that backtracking.


----------



## Superliner Diner (Oct 12, 2002)

> Isn't Newark's Penn station Amtrak property?


Yes.

But Newark Penn is served by far more NJT trains in a day than Amtrak trains. And it's the busiest transportation terminal in the state, plus it's immediately adjacent to NJT headquarters. So it's still a place where the most potential NJT passengers could come in to see a static display of the DMU....... although Hoboken Terminal is a close second.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 12, 2002)

Superliner Diner said:


> > Isn't Newark's Penn station Amtrak property?
> 
> 
> Yes.
> ...


Plus, Newark is the 5th Busiest Amtrak Station Nationwide.


----------



## Viewliner (Oct 12, 2002)

It will be in Newark on the 14th.

Click here to view the tour schedule in PDF format.

I think that its pretty ugly myself.


----------



## Amfleet (Oct 13, 2002)

It's to complex if you ask me for a commuter rail car. Why does it need those uge windows. It looks I'll see it next May when it chugs its way to Boston.


----------

