# Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery



## PRR 60

An article in the Elmira, NY Stargazette describes the production of the Viewliner II order at the local CAF USA plant. One newsworthy item is that the first cars are now expected to be delivered in the first quarter of 2013, a delay from the initial schedule of October, 2012. There is also a set of photos (with some obtrusive ads at the bottom of each photo).

Article

Photos


----------



## printman2000

I see there is a little bit of window changes. I do not believe the current cars have that small windows next to the large opening.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato

PRR 60 said:


> An article in the Elmira, NY Stargazette describes the production of the Viewliner II order at the local CAF USA plant. One newsworthy item is that the first cars are now expected to be delivered in the first quarter of 2013, a delay from the initial schedule of October, 2012. There is also a set of photos (with some obtrusive ads at the bottom of each photo).
> 
> Article
> 
> Photos


Doesn't say whether that's calendar year 2013, or fiscal year 2013. If FY13, then that would be right on schedule.


----------



## afigg

Hotblack Desiato said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An article in the Elmira, NY Stargazette describes the production of the Viewliner II order at the local CAF USA plant. One newsworthy item is that the first cars are now expected to be delivered in the first quarter of 2013, a delay from the initial schedule of October, 2012. There is also a set of photos (with some obtrusive ads at the bottom of each photo).
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't say whether that's calendar year 2013, or fiscal year 2013. If FY13, then that would be right on schedule.
Click to expand...

The article also says the first quarter of 2013 is when the first allotment of cars will be delivered, implying delivery of multiple cars. The earlier Amtrak articles stated that the first car, a diner car, was scheduled to be delivered in October 2012 which could be delivery of a single unit for first article acceptance tests and extensive road & FRA mandated testing in Colorado. Once the first unit passes those tests, then the production delivery would begin.

Given the time needed to check the cars out, get the cars qualified, get the maintenance and operating crews certified on the new equipment, I would guess that the earliest date for entry into revenue service would likely be mid or late spring of 2013.


----------



## MattW

printman2000 said:


> I see there is a little bit of window changes. I do not believe the current cars have that small windows next to the large opening.


Based on pictures of 8400, I don't believe those are windows:



 (not my photo)

Looks like the car pictures in the article is a diner which jives nicely with what afigg said.


----------



## Acela150

I'll be on the look out at Penn Coach Yard. The car in the article is a Bag-Dorm. With an opening that big and windows it's an obvious answer. I agree that those windows look a tad smaller. But one thing I agree with here is a supplement of cars instead stead of just one diner.


----------



## TimePeace

MattW said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see there is a little bit of window changes. I do not believe the current cars have that small windows next to the large opening.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on pictures of 8400, I don't believe those are windows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the car pictures in the article is a diner which jives nicely with what afigg said.
Click to expand...

Nice photo - thanks.


----------



## Ryan

Acela150 said:


> I'll be on the look out at Penn Coach Yard. The car in the article is a Bag-Dorm. With an opening that big and windows it's an obvious answer.


Not necessarily, all of the Viewliners have openings that large in the side to allow the modular interior to be installed.


----------



## printman2000

MattW said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see there is a little bit of window changes. I do not believe the current cars have that small windows next to the large opening.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on pictures of 8400, I don't believe those are windows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the car pictures in the article is a diner which jives nicely with what afigg said.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you may be right. Anyone know what those grill things are on the dining cars? Kitchen vents?


----------



## Blackwolf

Fantastic, photo's have finally been posted! I'm excited to see tangible evidence of the cars being manufactured for once, instead of simple reports saying "yes, there is a contract."

Those smaller 'windows' next to the plug? Air vents that all the Viewliners have for the HVAC and vacuum toilet systems.

I am willing to place a bet that the car we're seeing the most of in the photos is indeed a diner. The window setup is identical to 8400, with the double row on one side of the plug, but not the other. Instead, there just a single row of windows where the passage around the kitchen would be and no windows at all on the opposite wall.

Either way, this time next year we'll have new Viewliners rolling. Maybe not in revenue service yet, but there will be cars going down the tracks for testing and for delivery!


----------



## afigg

Blackwolf said:


> Either way, this time next year we'll have new Viewliners rolling. Maybe not in revenue service yet, but there will be cars going down the tracks for testing and for delivery!


I expect there will be one or more dedicated serious railfans who will try to get pictures of the new Viewliners as they are moved from Elmira to Delaware. The articles says the cars will be completed in Elmira with trucks and will be moved to the NS yard and taken to Amtrak, presumably Bear? Getting a photo or video of one or more Viewliners of the first deliveries en route from Elmira would be a coup.


----------



## Blackwolf

Hah, I did just notice after taking a second look at the photos that the new Viewliner II cars have a different roof structure! The roof is curved and fluted, like the old Budd cars and the roof lines of the Superliners. The Viewliner I cars have smooth roofs, with a raised ridge up the center and are smooth, not fluted.

Look at the roof of the existing Viewliner I's:

And now the roof (before assembly) of a Viewliner II:


----------



## R30A

Your observations on overall shape are obviously correct, but based on my memory of viewliners, and looking at those photos that you posted, I think the old ones are corrigated too.

With regards to what type of car that is, it appears as if immediately to the left of the plug there is only an upper window on the side we can see- This would roughly correspond to the location of roomette 2 in a modern viewliner. Could this be where the restrooms will be? The other side appears to retain the double window from other photos.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be on the look out at Penn Coach Yard. The car in the article is a Bag-Dorm. With an opening that big and windows it's an obvious answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily, all of the Viewliners have openings that large in the side to allow the modular interior to be installed.
Click to expand...

That's true. But looking at where the opening is compared to the windows it's a little far for that. Just my 2 cents. Although it could be as there is that little space for those grates can't remember what those are for. Maybe.


----------



## afigg

R30A said:


> Your observations on overall shape are obviously correct, but based on my memory of viewliners, and looking at those photos that you posted, I think the old ones are corrigated too.
> 
> With regards to what type of car that is, it appears as if immediately to the left of the plug there is only an upper window on the side we can see- This would roughly correspond to the location of roomette 2 in a modern viewliner. Could this be where the restrooms will be? The other side appears to retain the double window from other photos.


Look at slides 8 and 17 in the slide show, especially slide 17. That has to be a diner car.


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> R30A said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your observations on overall shape are obviously correct, but based on my memory of viewliners, and looking at those photos that you posted, I think the old ones are corrigated too.
> 
> With regards to what type of car that is, it appears as if immediately to the left of the plug there is only an upper window on the side we can see- This would roughly correspond to the location of roomette 2 in a modern viewliner. Could this be where the restrooms will be? The other side appears to retain the double window from other photos.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at slides 8 and 17 in the slide show, especially slide 17. That has to be a diner car.
Click to expand...

Slides 8 and 17 are either a sleeper or Bag-Dorm. Now that I look at it thanks to Ryan's statement it's more likely a Sleeper. That opening like Ryan said is to slip the Roomette modules in and out of the car. If it were a diner it would have a single door on both sides. The door wouldn't be that big. The door on the Diner's will be an Emergency Exit. Which the current Heritage Diner's don't have. They have a door but it's very very small just for putting food in the car.


----------



## printman2000

Acela150 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R30A said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your observations on overall shape are obviously correct, but based on my memory of viewliners, and looking at those photos that you posted, I think the old ones are corrigated too.
> 
> With regards to what type of car that is, it appears as if immediately to the left of the plug there is only an upper window on the side we can see- This would roughly correspond to the location of roomette 2 in a modern viewliner. Could this be where the restrooms will be? The other side appears to retain the double window from other photos.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at slides 8 and 17 in the slide show, especially slide 17. That has to be a diner car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Slides 8 and 17 are either a sleeper or Bag-Dorm. Now that I look at it thanks to Ryan's statement it's more likely a Sleeper. That opening like Ryan said is to slip the Roomette modules in and out of the car. If it were a diner it would have a single door on both sides. The door wouldn't be that big. The door on the Diner's will be an Emergency Exit. Which the current Heritage Diner's don't have. They have a door but it's very very small just for putting food in the car.
Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, the small door you are talking about on the dining cars is actually located in the big module door. Check out pics of 8400 to see what I am talking about.


----------



## Ryan

No, ALL of the Viewliners will have the big hole in the side. You can clearly see it in the side of the 8400 diner that was posted earlier. Bags and bag dorms will have it too, to slip in the shelving modules and crew rooms.

Here's a 100% crop of the above 8400 picture where the opening is clearly visible:







Edit: The "no" was directed at Acela150 - Craig is absolutely right.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan thanks for posting that. I never knew that "hole" was there on 8400. I've only seen it once. That was at Penn Coach Yard and that was from a great distance. Here is where I was standing. In the parking garage next to the Cira Center. It's a good 200-300 yards away. Maybe more. It's hard to see that far. Not to mention I wear glasses on a daily basis. But when I look at it close I see the module "hole".


----------



## Ryan

No problem - as they say, a picture is worth 1,000 words! 

That's the real (unrealized until now) beauty of the Viewliner design - the carbody can be just about the same regardless of what variant it is, just slip in whatever modules you need. Alan has also made the point that this should make refurbs of the cars easy. Order a car's worth of extra modules, then when you bring a car into the shop, slide out the old and broken and slide in the new and refurbed. Fix up the old modules without having to have a car out of service while you do it.


----------



## Acela150

I've always said it and I always say it. I always learn something new everyday.

I had known about the modules but not on the diner. But it's a great idea! Like you said Ryan no taking a car Out Of Service for a period of time.


----------



## jis

I think the first car will go to Pueblo CO for FRA/AAR tests and the second car will go to Philly to start testing on the NEC. The rest will go to Hialeah, their maintenance base, to be rotated into service. Don't see any reason for it to go to Bear DE. But then again, of course, I could be wrong too.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I think the first car will go to Pueblo CO for FRA/AAR tests and the second car will go to Philly to start testing on the NEC. The rest will go to Hialeah, their maintenance base, to be rotated into service. Don't see any reason for it to go to Bear DE. But then again, of course, I could be wrong too.


I agree with the first car going to Pueblo. There is no need for any cars to head to bear. I can agree with the second car heading to Philly, I think Amtrak possibly will want "one of each" to test on the NEC. Not sure if this is true but it's just an idea. This would actually make one heck of a photo! I would imagine coupled up to a few amfleets for breaking protect. But hey we can all dream right.

Do we have any ideas on how fast the cars will be based for as far as speed?? 110 most likely?? IIRC 8400 hit 120 on it's speed tests on the NEC.


----------



## TCRT

Acela150 said:


> I agree with the first car going to Pueblo. There is no need for any cars to head to bear. I can agree with the second car heading to Philly, I think Amtrak possibly will want "one of each" to test on the NEC. Not sure if this is true but it's just an idea. This would actually make one heck of a photo! I would imagine coupled up to a few amfleets for breaking protect. But hey we can all dream right.
> 
> Do we have any ideas on how fast the cars will be based for as far as speed?? 110 most likely?? IIRC 8400 hit 120 on it's speed tests on the NEC.


I recall reading that Amtrak's plan is to have long-distance trains running at 125mph down the NEC to speed up schedules a bit, so I would imagine they'll get tested to at least that speed.


----------



## jamesontheroad

Acela150 said:


> I had known about the modules but not on the diner. But it's a great idea! Like you said Ryan no taking a car Out Of Service for a period of time.


It might be verging off-topic, but there's a very successful parallel to the principle of swapping out interior modules in a rail car - the Boeing 737 QC (or Quick Change) variant. I don't believe it's manufactured any more, but it's basically a standard 737 passenger jet with a large cargo door on the side of the fuselage. The entire cabin can be reconfigured from passenger carrying to cargo carrying in less than 30 minutes. There's a video of just such a conversion on a Jet Time 737 here:



There are a couple here in the UK - I often used to see one that belongs to Jet2 at Belfast International Airport. Operates low-cost passenger flights during the day, has the seats removed in the late evening and then spends the night doing trips for Royal Mail between Northern Ireland and England. Back in service as a passenger jet the next morning, and few passengers would ever notice :lol:


----------



## jis

The Viewliner IIs are speced for 125mph.


----------



## AlanB

R30A said:


> Your observations on overall shape are obviously correct, but based on my memory of viewliners, and looking at those photos that you posted, I think the old ones are corrigated too.
> 
> With regards to what type of car that is, it appears as if immediately to the left of the plug there is only an upper window on the side we can see- This would roughly correspond to the location of roomette 2 in a modern viewliner. Could this be where the restrooms will be? The other side appears to retain the double window from other photos.


The restrooms will be opposite the shower, what it currently the Attendants room. The attendant moves to room number #12, leaving only 11 revenue rooms in the new cars.


----------



## transit54

jamesbrownontheroad said:


> It might be verging off-topic, but there's a very successful parallel to the principle of swapping out interior modules in a rail car - the Boeing 737 QC (or Quick Change) variant.


They did this with 727s a while back, also. In the late '90s, UPS was very active in doing this to try and make extra revenue with their planes on the weekend by offering passenger charters.

Thanks for the video...had never seen it done in action...


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> I agree with the first car going to Pueblo. There is no need for any cars to head to bear. I can agree with the second car heading to Philly, I think Amtrak possibly will want "one of each" to test on the NEC. Not sure if this is true but it's just an idea. This would actually make one heck of a photo! I would imagine coupled up to a few amfleets for breaking protect. But hey we can all dream right.


The cars will have to go someplace where Amtrak has the space and staff to conduct a full inspection of each unit upon delivery to make sure it has the right part numbers, the parts were installed correctly ("ok, who put this in backwards and then beat it with a hammer to make it fit?"). Then each Viewliner car will presumably have to undergo so many miles of speed and operation trials before they can enter revenue service. Have to independently verify that the unit was built correctly and to spec before Amtrak cuts a check for full payment. These cars are being built to Amtrak's specification and design, this is not an off-the-shelf order, so verification and inspection will be needed.

If the cars have to be run up and down the tracks, would make sense for Amtrak to do it on the NEC between WAS and NYP where they don't have to pay trackage rights to somebody else and where they can get the cars up to 125 mph to check stability, vibration, etc. That is why I would expect the cars to go one of Amtrak facilities along the NEC for the initial check-out. Viewliner II and ACS-64 test and check-out deadhead runs on the NEC could be a common sight by 2014.


----------



## NE933

And, I am betting/hoping that once the acceptance testing passes with flying colors (!), Amtrak has a followup contract ready to hand to CAF for not only the Option for 70 more sleepers/dorms/baggage, but also to get started on them coaches and cafe/lounges.

I believe and suspect that some of the silence about Superliner III's is the inherent vagueness of whether to ask CAF to do it, or, spread some of the jelly around the bread loaf by including Bombardier. But Bombardier and Amtrak still have sour grapes, and neither is saying anything about whether or not they're passed the Acela infamy.


----------



## afigg

NE933 said:


> And, I am betting/hoping that once the acceptance testing passes with flying colors (!), Amtrak has a followup contract ready to hand to CAF for not only the Option for 70 more sleepers/dorms/baggage, but also to get started on them coaches and cafe/lounges.


I doubt if Amtrak will exercise much of the 70 car option order as it stands for sleepers, baggage-dorms, diners. Would be popular here if Amtrak were to order even just 3 baggage dorms, 3 (full service) diners, 10 sleepers because they would then have the equipment to restore one or 2 LD sleeper trains (Silver Palm, maybe Three Rivers) pending new LD coach cars. But that is likely wishful thinking with the House reportedly looking to cut Amtrak's annual subsidies even further in the Transportation Authorization draft bill.

A follow-on order for Amfleet II replacements, say for 140 to 150 coach cars and 30 to 35 café/diner-light cars, would be nice, but we will have to wait for the next version of the Fleet Strategy Plan to be released to see whether that order will be placed in the next year or not. I think Amtrak should take advantage of really low interest rates while they can and place the order, but Boardman and the board may think otherwise and wait for the outcome of the 2012 election.

There is also the question of the single level corridor car Amfleet I replacements which could be a rather large order for 600+ single level cars with the build spread over 10-15 years. That is the big contract down the road. What it is not clear to me, is whether CAF Viewliner IIs are or could brought into compliance with the formal Next Generation Single Level corridor car spec.



NE933 said:


> I believe and suspect that some of the silence about Superliner III's is the inherent vagueness of whether to ask CAF to do it, or, spread some of the jelly around the bread loaf by including Bombardier. But Bombardier and Amtrak still have sour grapes, and neither is saying anything about whether or not they're passed the Acela infamy.


The main reason for silence for possible Superliner IIIs (or whatever they are called) is that the order for 130 corridor bi-level cars for CA and the Mid-west is going through the bid process. Any order of Superliner I replacements will have to piggyback on or follow that order from who ever lands the contract for the corridor bi-levels. Even if CAF were to bid for the job to use the Elmira plant, Amtrak's preference may be to have someone else build the bi-levels so not of all their manufacturing eggs are in one basket, so to speak. Who will bid for the bi-level corridor car order, no idea.


----------



## PRR 60

afigg said:


> ...Who will bid for the bi-level corridor car order, no idea.


The bi-level car order, including issuing the RFQ and selecting the successful bidder, is being managed by Illinois DOT on behalf of the participating states. Amtrak is not directly involved in the order, although they have secondary involvement as a participant in the development of the specifications.


----------



## afigg

PRR 60 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Who will bid for the bi-level corridor car order, no idea.
> 
> 
> 
> The bi-level car order, including issuing the RFQ and selecting the successful bidder, is being managed by Illinois DOT on behalf of the participating states. Amtrak is not directly involved in the order, although they have secondary involvement as a participant in the development of the specifications.
Click to expand...

According to this CalTrans presentation, they are the lead agency on the joint procurement of the 130 bi-levels. Illinois is likely the lead agency on behalf of the participating Mid-Western states. Yes, Amtrak is not in the lead, so how much say they have on the decision on the contract award and specifics is not clear. With this many agencies involved, probably has a rather complicated agreement on who votes and the voting & criteria weights for the contract selection.

See http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/transprog/ctcliaison/2011/1211/PP_Tab96_2.5g8_PP_Rail%20Car%20Procurement.pdf (12 slide pages, ~ 3 MB pdf file).


----------



## PerRock

NE933 said:


> I believe and suspect that some of the silence about Superliner III's is the inherent vagueness of whether to ask CAF to do it, or, spread some of the jelly around the bread loaf by including Bombardier. But Bombardier and Amtrak still have sour grapes, and neither is saying anything about whether or not they're passed the Acela infamy.


There are other companies as well that may be interested. Alstom, and Siemens for instance. Heck maybe even one of the US freight car companies might be interested in it. For the Super IIIs they'll probably but out a bid request like they did for the View IIs and then they'll see what they get.

peter


----------



## Oldsmoboi

jis said:


> The Viewliner IIs are speced for 125mph.


How much time will this scrape off the LD routes?


----------



## afigg

Oldsmoboi said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliner IIs are speced for 125mph.
> 
> 
> 
> How much time will this scrape off the LD routes?
Click to expand...

Of course, the 125 mph capability will only be used for the LD trains on the WAS-NYP section of the NEC. Should result in some time being trimmed off the NYP-WAS schedule on the southbound leg, maybe 15 minutes if Amtrak decides to tighten up the schedules.

On the seriously padded northbound WAS-NYP leg, they could use to trim time off the published schedules. Yesterday, for example, the #90 Palmetto departed WAS 25 minutes early, arrived NYP 53 minutes early. The northbound LD trains going from WAS-NYP have been getting into NYP early quite frequently in recent months. A day train such as the Palmetto might get a few more passengers from SC and NC if the schedule showed a 11:15 or 11 PM arrival in NYP, than 11:47 PM which is almost midnight. But that has to be traded off against keeping the official On-Time Performance numbers up.

I wonder if there might also be some scheduled trip time reductions for the NE Regionals that are on the NEC around the same time the LD trains pass through. Does Amtrak have padding in the schedule for the Regionals to give them a margin to pass around slower moving 110 mph LD trains?


----------



## jis

Just a few mins. But more importantly the LDs will be able to run on the center tracks without getting in the way of the Regionals and getting shoved onto outer tracks behind NJT and SEPTA and such.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Just a few mins. But more importantly the LDs will be able to run on the center tracks without getting in the way of the Regionals and getting shoved onto outer tracks behind NJT and SEPTA and such.


I can testify to that. I was on 615 on the 16th and they put us on the local between Overbrook and Bryn Mawr behind a local. Septa was running Monday-Friday schedules And Amtrak running Sunday schedules. So everything was messed up. We were running 25mph at the most. Behind that septa train.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

We'll finally have blazing fast 125MPH LD trains in 2013? Great Scott! Better watch out Kazakhstan.


----------



## Donctor

Texas Sunset said:


> Better watch out Kazakhstan.


No, I don't think the Sunset will be extended that far.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a few mins. But more importantly the LDs will be able to run on the center tracks without getting in the way of the Regionals and getting shoved onto outer tracks behind NJT and SEPTA and such.
> 
> 
> 
> I can testify to that. I was on 615 on the 16th and they put us on the local between Overbrook and Bryn Mawr behind a local. Septa was running Monday-Friday schedules And Amtrak running Sunday schedules. So everything was messed up. We were running 25mph at the most. Behind that septa train.
Click to expand...

Actually the reason that NJT is considering running the outer zone Trenton trains at 125mph is the same. It allows those trains to mix more seamlessly into the inner track mix between Elmora and Midway. In effect it also increases the effective capacity of the corridor by keeping trains in single slots instead of requiring additional fractional slots due to mismatch of speeds. Operationally there is way more to this than the flashy headlines, political bullsh*t and mindless sensationalism.


----------



## The Chief

afigg said:


> Yesterday, for example, the #90 Palmetto *departed* WAS 25 minutes *early*, arrived NYP 53 minutes early.


This is odd as most rulebooks state no _early_ departures for PAX service.*

**Auto Train* exception IIRC.


----------



## jis

The Chief said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday, for example, the #90 Palmetto *departed* WAS 25 minutes *early*, arrived NYP 53 minutes early.
> 
> 
> 
> This is odd as most rulebooks state no _early_ departures for PAX service.*
> 
> **Auto Train* exception IIRC.
Click to expand...

Palmetto is discharge only in Washington in the northbound direction, so it can leave as soon as station work is done. It does not need to wait for its scheduled departure time. And indeed the Palmetto and the Silvers often leave Washington ahead of schedule in the northbound direction.


----------



## NE933

jis said:


> Operationally there is way more to this than the ...political bullsh*t ....


Yes Jis, but haven't you noticed we are drowning more and more in political bullsh*t. Maybe we better find a way to master the alchemy of turning it into something useful, since it ain't going away.


----------



## The Chief

jis said:


> Palmetto is discharge only in Washington in the northbound direction, so it can leave as soon as station work is done.


Ah, yes, _discharge_ only, of course, I forgot about that. Thanks *jis*. As I'm not in the East I'm not that familiar w/those skeds, and I didn't look at a timetable. The *D*.


----------



## battalion51

While not true in this scenario, there are a few locations that utilize the *L* notation to show that the train stops primarily to discharge only, and may depart up to five minutes early.

The other nugget in all of this, is that in order to effectively increase the speeds of a train they will need a dedicated fleet of Viewliner II's allocated to them, unless Amtrak goes back to get the Viewliner I's upgraded to 125 mph standards (they are currently rated for 110 MPH). The only train that would be able to get away with interchangeable Viewliner I's and II's is the LSL, since it's restricted to 110 MPH because of the AC-DMs, MNRR, etc. But for the trains where the vast majority of the fleet is used (Silver Service, Crescent, Cardinal) you can't change the timetable without the upgrade to the I's. Sure, if you can get a consist together that will allow you to move at that clip they'll likely open the throttle up and run it at 125.

The benefit that most are forgetting is that an all Amfleet and Viewliner fleet will mean the Engineers will be able to run blended braking on these trains. You're not _supposed_ to (emphasis on the word supposed) run blended braking on a train that has Heritage more than one Heritage in the consist (IIRC). Blended braking means a better ride for the passengers, and a few seconds saved on the station stops, curves, and slow orders.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

battalion51 said:


> While not true in this scenario, there are a few locations that utilize the *L* notation to show that the train stops primarily to discharge only, and may depart up to five minutes early.
> 
> The other nugget in all of this, is that in order to effectively increase the speeds of a train they will need a dedicated fleet of Viewliner II's allocated to them, unless Amtrak goes back to get the Viewliner I's upgraded to 125 mph standards (they are currently rated for 110 MPH). The only train that would be able to get away with interchangeable Viewliner I's and II's is the LSL, since it's restricted to 110 MPH because of the AC-DMs, MNRR, etc. But for the trains where the vast majority of the fleet is used (Silver Service, Crescent, Cardinal) you can't change the timetable without the upgrade to the I's. Sure, if you can get a consist together that will allow you to move at that clip they'll likely open the throttle up and run it at 125.
> 
> The benefit that most are forgetting is that an all Amfleet and Viewliner fleet will mean the Engineers will be able to run blended braking on these trains. You're not _supposed_ to (emphasis on the word supposed) run blended braking on a train that has Heritage more than one Heritage in the consist (IIRC). Blended braking means a better ride for the passengers, and a few seconds saved on the station stops, curves, and slow orders.



What's the fastest Amtrak train powered by a diesel?


----------



## afigg

Swadian Hardcore said:


> What's the fastest Amtrak train powered by a diesel?


For regular service, currently the Wolverines and Pere Marquettes running on parts of the 97 miles of Amtrak owned tracks in Indiana and Michigan. I expect that on the NEC when a P-42 is swapped for a electric locomotive from PHL-WAS or north of Westerly, RI, they might crank it to 110 mph. I believe the Empire corridor between Poughkeepsie and Schenectady is limited to 100 mph, but I could be wrong on that.

As for the Viewliner Is, it has been reported here that the plans are to upgrade the 50 Viewliner Is to 125 mph capability, if that is not already being done as the Viewliners sleepers go through their scheduled overhaul cycle.


----------



## PRR 60

afigg said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the fastest Amtrak train powered by a diesel?
> 
> 
> 
> For regular service, currently the Wolverines and Pere Marquettes running on parts of the 97 miles of Amtrak owned tracks in Indiana and Michigan. I expect that on the NEC when a P-42 is swapped for a electric locomotive from PHL-WAS or north of Westerly, RI, they might crank it to 110 mph. I believe the Empire corridor between Poughkeepsie and Schenectady is limited to 100 mph, but I could be wrong on that.
> 
> As for the Viewliner Is, it has been reported here that the plans are to upgrade the 50 Viewliner Is to 125 mph capability, if that is not already being done as the Viewliners sleepers go through their scheduled overhaul cycle.
Click to expand...

I believe the existing Viewliners are 125mph capable. The constraint is that they all run with Heritage baggage cars that are limited to 110mph. The replacement of the Heritage baggage cars with Viewliners will lift that constraint.


----------



## MikefromCrete

afigg said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the fastest Amtrak train powered by a diesel?
> 
> 
> 
> For regular service, currently the Wolverines and Pere Marquettes running on parts of the 97 miles of Amtrak owned tracks in Indiana and Michigan. I expect that on the NEC when a P-42 is swapped for a electric locomotive from PHL-WAS or north of Westerly, RI, they might crank it to 110 mph. I believe the Empire corridor between Poughkeepsie and Schenectady is limited to 100 mph, but I could be wrong on that.
> 
> As for the Viewliner Is, it has been reported here that the plans are to upgrade the 50 Viewliner Is to 125 mph capability, if that is not already being done as the Viewliners sleepers go through their scheduled overhaul cycle.
Click to expand...

Pere Marquette doesn't run on the 110 mph segment, Wolverines and Blue Water do.


----------



## Acela150

PRR 60 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the fastest Amtrak train powered by a diesel?
> 
> 
> 
> For regular service, currently the Wolverines and Pere Marquettes running on parts of the 97 miles of Amtrak owned tracks in Indiana and Michigan. I expect that on the NEC when a P-42 is swapped for a electric locomotive from PHL-WAS or north of Westerly, RI, they might crank it to 110 mph. I believe the Empire corridor between Poughkeepsie and Schenectady is limited to 100 mph, but I could be wrong on that.
> 
> As for the Viewliner Is, it has been reported here that the plans are to upgrade the 50 Viewliner Is to 125 mph capability, if that is not already being done as the Viewliners sleepers go through their scheduled overhaul cycle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I believe the existing Viewliners are 125mph capable. The constraint is that they all run with Heritage baggage cars that are limited to 110mph. The replacement of the Heritage baggage cars with Viewliners will lift that constraint.
Click to expand...

The current VL's are limited to 110MPH. Heritage or No Heritage.


----------



## AlanB

Swadian Hardcore said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> While not true in this scenario, there are a few locations that utilize the *L* notation to show that the train stops primarily to discharge only, and may depart up to five minutes early.
> 
> The other nugget in all of this, is that in order to effectively increase the speeds of a train they will need a dedicated fleet of Viewliner II's allocated to them, unless Amtrak goes back to get the Viewliner I's upgraded to 125 mph standards (they are currently rated for 110 MPH). The only train that would be able to get away with interchangeable Viewliner I's and II's is the LSL, since it's restricted to 110 MPH because of the AC-DMs, MNRR, etc. But for the trains where the vast majority of the fleet is used (Silver Service, Crescent, Cardinal) you can't change the timetable without the upgrade to the I's. Sure, if you can get a consist together that will allow you to move at that clip they'll likely open the throttle up and run it at 125.
> 
> The benefit that most are forgetting is that an all Amfleet and Viewliner fleet will mean the Engineers will be able to run blended braking on these trains. You're not _supposed_ to (emphasis on the word supposed) run blended braking on a train that has Heritage more than one Heritage in the consist (IIRC). Blended braking means a better ride for the passengers, and a few seconds saved on the station stops, curves, and slow orders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's the fastest Amtrak train powered by a diesel?
Click to expand...

Amtrak's P42's have a maximum rated speed of 110 MPH, so assuming that the cars being pulled don't limit things, then diesel hauled trains would max out at 110 MPH assuming that the track permits it.


----------



## TCRT

I recall seeing

 on youtube, which would appear to show a P42 running at 110mph on the _Keystone_, for example.


----------



## Acela150

TCRT said:


> I recall seeing



That's pretty much the only place in the Country where P42's and P40's can hit 110MPH. Although I don't know if they can actually hit 110MPH.


----------



## AlanB

I've been behind P42's on the NEC back when for a while they were changing the LD and other trains going beyond DC engines in Philly, running electric only between NY & PHL. We did 110 MPH. And the engines are rated for that.

Also as of last week, they're now doing 110MPH out in Michigan.


----------



## NE933

May I kindly request Alan B. to remove the erroneous subject line of this thread which says "...delivery is delayed until 2013...". This will cause a reader discouragement and is a faithkiller, something we need _*less*_ of and not more.

There is no delay so far. The first VII's will roll out near the end of this year for testing, _then_, will enter revenue services 1st quarter 2013. that has been the plan all along.

Thank you.


----------



## Peter KG6LSE

Off topic a tit bit .. but MAN that thing was Hauling Rear .. I need to get some mileage on that train ASAP ! ..

and I thought 90 on the SWC was a trip .. Oh baby !

Iam sorry but to see a non NEC train hit triple digits makes me all happy inside ..


----------



## Acela150

NE933 said:


> May I kindly request Alan B. to remove the erroneous subject line of this thread which says "...delivery is delayed until 2013...". This will cause a reader discouragement and is a faithkiller, something we need _*less*_ of and not more.
> 
> There is no delay so far. The first VII's will roll out near the end of this year for testing, _then_, will enter revenue services 1st quarter 2013. that has been the plan all along.
> 
> Thank you.


I know you didn't read the article.. If you did you would see that CAF delayed the first delivery so they could get several cars out at once instead of just one.

If you can prove that the article in the OP is a joke and a lie feel free to enlighten us on why not.


----------



## Acela150

AlanB said:


> I've been behind P42's on the NEC back when for a while they were changing the LD and other trains going beyond DC engines in Philly, running electric only between NY & PHL. We did 110 MPH. And the engines are rated for that.
> 
> Also as of last week, they're now doing 110MPH out in Michigan.


I was never able to get behind P40/42's on the NEC south of PHL.

Why did they change power at PHL? I can't remember. Wasn't it something about power shortages?? Not to mention if this was the reason wasn't this in the peak of the AEM-7 reman project?? Which made the shortages worse. They had about 2 or 3 out for Reman at a time IIRC.


----------



## jis

TCRT said:


> I recall seeing


As I recall, Paradise PA is not quite 110mph territory given the curves to the east. It is probably 90, maybe 100, but I could be wrong of course since I don't have an employee TT in front of me.


----------



## Oldsmoboi

AlanB said:


> I've been behind P42's on the NEC back when for a while they were changing the LD and other trains going beyond DC engines in Philly, running electric only between NY & PHL. We did 110 MPH. And the engines are rated for that.
> 
> Also as of last week, they're now doing 110MPH out in Michigan.


Is there any press release for the 110 service starting in Michigan? I'd like to post it on my own site.


----------



## Mackensen

Oldsmoboi said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been behind P42's on the NEC back when for a while they were changing the LD and other trains going beyond DC engines in Philly, running electric only between NY & PHL. We did 110 MPH. And the engines are rated for that.
> 
> Also as of last week, they're now doing 110MPH out in Michigan.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any press release for the 110 service starting in Michigan? I'd like to post it on my own site.
Click to expand...

Here.


----------



## NE933

Acela150 said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> May I kindly request Alan B. to remove the erroneous subject line of this thread which says "...delivery is delayed until 2013...". This will cause a reader discouragement and is a faithkiller, something we need _*less*_ of and not more.
> 
> There is no delay so far. The first VII's will roll out near the end of this year for testing, _then_, will enter revenue services 1st quarter 2013. that has been the plan all along.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you didn't read the article.. If you did you would see that CAF delayed the first delivery so they could get several cars out at once instead of just one.
> 
> If you can prove that the article in the OP is a joke and a lie feel free to enlighten us on why not.
Click to expand...

No. You, kindly summon the specific citations of the Amtrak press release and compare them to the article, then I'll re-read the article, and one of us will enlighten the other after but not before the last qualifying thread.


----------



## Acela150

NE933 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> May I kindly request Alan B. to remove the erroneous subject line of this thread which says "...delivery is delayed until 2013...". This will cause a reader discouragement and is a faithkiller, something we need _*less*_ of and not more.
> 
> There is no delay so far. The first VII's will roll out near the end of this year for testing, _then_, will enter revenue services 1st quarter 2013. that has been the plan all along.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you didn't read the article.. If you did you would see that CAF delayed the first delivery so they could get several cars out at once instead of just one.
> 
> If you can prove that the article in the OP is a joke and a lie feel free to enlighten us on why not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. You, kindly summon the specific citations of the Amtrak press release and compare them to the article, then I'll re-read the article, and one of us will enlighten the other after but not before the last qualifying thread.
Click to expand...

Overall CAF has the final say on when cars are delivered. They're building them not Amtrak. I'm sure CAF conferred with Amtrak on this and Amtrak might have agreed with CAF. I would prefer a set of cars then just one car if I were in Joe Boardman's shoes. If that lone diner shows up at Penn Coach Yard in October then Amtrak was right. If they start showing up in 2013 then there's the proof that CAF is correct.


----------



## Oldsmoboi

Mackensen said:


> Oldsmoboi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been behind P42's on the NEC back when for a while they were changing the LD and other trains going beyond DC engines in Philly, running electric only between NY & PHL. We did 110 MPH. And the engines are rated for that.
> 
> Also as of last week, they're now doing 110MPH out in Michigan.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any press release for the 110 service starting in Michigan? I'd like to post it on my own site.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I help to get the word out as well on my site with my automotive readership (we're Detroit/Michigan focused) http://www.cheersandgears.com/page/index.html/_/articles/industry-news/michigan-gains-higher-speed-rail-service-r383


----------



## jis

I may be totally wrong about this, but I thought the confusion was mostly about whether the 2013 referred to calendar year 2013 or FY 2013. The latter would still place the first deliveries in calendar year 2012. Frankly I don't know the answer and 3 months this way or that probably does not matter that much. The early deliveries will be out testing and certifying for several months anyway before anything goes into service. It took NJT over 4 months from first delivery to first in service for the MLVs for example.


----------



## NE933

jis said:


> I may be totally wrong about this, but I thought the confusion was mostly about whether the 2013 referred to calendar year 2013 or FY 2013. The latter would still place the first deliveries in calendar year 2012. Frankly I don't know the answer and 3 months this way or that probably does not matter that much. The early deliveries will be out testing and certifying for several months anyway before anything goes into service. It took NJT over 4 months from first delivery to first in service for the MLVs for example.


That is the confusion I was talking about.


----------



## afigg

NE933 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may be totally wrong about this, but I thought the confusion was mostly about whether the 2013 referred to calendar year 2013 or FY 2013. The latter would still place the first deliveries in calendar year 2012. Frankly I don't know the answer and 3 months this way or that probably does not matter that much. The early deliveries will be out testing and certifying for several months anyway before anything goes into service. It took NJT over 4 months from first delivery to first in service for the MLVs for example.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the confusion I was talking about.
Click to expand...

Or the confusion could be that the first unit is to be delivered for initial testing, including being sent to Colorado for FRA trials, in October, but that the first batch of multiple units is scheduled for delivery after the first of the year. On the other hands, schedules and Gannt charts are made to be slipped.


----------



## AlanB

Acela150 said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been behind P42's on the NEC back when for a while they were changing the LD and other trains going beyond DC engines in Philly, running electric only between NY & PHL. We did 110 MPH. And the engines are rated for that.
> 
> Also as of last week, they're now doing 110MPH out in Michigan.
> 
> 
> 
> I was never able to get behind P40/42's on the NEC south of PHL.
> 
> Why did they change power at PHL? I can't remember. Wasn't it something about power shortages?? Not to mention if this was the reason wasn't this in the peak of the AEM-7 reman project?? Which made the shortages worse. They had about 2 or 3 out for Reman at a time IIRC.
Click to expand...

There was a period in time back as the E60's were on their way out and the HHP-8's where just getting started and during that same point Amtrak was dealing with the Express Trak freight business. The AEM-7's couldn't handle the assignments because, IIRC, they could not communicate with FRED (Flashing Rear End Detector) that had to be used with the freight cars. So only the new HHP-8's which were having break-in problems and the aging E60's could pull trains on the NEC with freight on the bottom.

So Amtrak in an effort to reduce the number of miles being put on the E60's would have them haul trains from NYP down to PHL. Then since Philly was already adding freight cars to the rear, they'd also cut off the E60 and pop on the P40/P42's needed for the rest of the journey.


----------



## Acela150

AlanB said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been behind P42's on the NEC back when for a while they were changing the LD and other trains going beyond DC engines in Philly, running electric only between NY & PHL. We did 110 MPH. And the engines are rated for that.
> 
> Also as of last week, they're now doing 110MPH out in Michigan.
> 
> 
> 
> I was never able to get behind P40/42's on the NEC south of PHL.
> 
> Why did they change power at PHL? I can't remember. Wasn't it something about power shortages?? Not to mention if this was the reason wasn't this in the peak of the AEM-7 reman project?? Which made the shortages worse. They had about 2 or 3 out for Reman at a time IIRC.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was a period in time back as the E60's were on their way out and the HHP-8's where just getting started and during that same point Amtrak was dealing with the Express Trak freight business. The AEM-7's couldn't handle the assignments because, IIRC, they could not communicate with FRED (Flashing Rear End Detector) that had to be used with the freight cars. So only the new HHP-8's which were having break-in problems and the aging E60's could pull trains on the NEC with freight on the bottom.
> 
> So Amtrak in an effort to reduce the number of miles being put on the E60's would have them haul trains from NYP down to PHL. Then since Philly was already adding freight cars to the rear, they'd also cut off the E60 and pop on the P40/P42's needed for the rest of the journey.
Click to expand...

I knew it had to do with Power Shortages but I had forgot about the Expresstraks. I didn't realize that the Reefers used Freddy.


----------



## dlagrua

Since 2013 is now here; its time to bring this topic back up to the top. I realize that the Viewliner II order is behind schedule but has anyone heard when the first units will go into service? IIRC the diners and baggage cars were due off the production line first. I just wonder if these cars will make their debut at NTD. That would be a fitting introduction.

Comments?


----------



## PRR 60

dlagrua said:


> Since 2013 is now here; its time to bring this topic back up to the top. I realize that the Viewliner II order is behind schedule but has anyone heard when the first units will go into service? IIRC the diners and baggage cars were due off the production line first. I just wonder if these cars will make their debut at NTD. That would be a fitting introduction.Comments?


Having the new cars in service will likely not happen until early 2014.

The first prototype cars for testing are scheduled out late spring this year. Assuming the testing program finds nothing that requires major redesign, the first production cars should begin arriving in late this year or early 2014. The order should be fully delivered in 2015.


----------



## Nathanael

Sometime in the last year, we found out that Amtrak is planning to get one of each type delivered for testing and validation (etc) before getting the rest delivered.

I believe Amtrak is still anticipating putting those four cars into service sometime late in the 2013 calendar year, assuming there's nothing wrong with them -- perhaps around October. This is about a year's delay versus the original plan, which informed speculation says was related to difficulty on CAF's part finding welders who knew how to work with stainless steel.

I'm quite certain Amtrak will put cars into service as soon as they're delivered and tested, rather than waiting until they have a whole bunch. From Amtrak's point of view, they need relief for the crumbling Heritage fleet ASAP. Consider that Amtrak actually deployed the 8400 prototype diner, which would not have been normal practice. At the moment it's just a question of when CAF delivers the "first four" cars, and how long Amtrak and the FRA take testing them. They've been extremely quiet about it so there's really no way to tell -- they could announce delivery as early as March or much later.


----------



## jis

What I have heard from usually reliable sources is that the delivery of the cars for test and certification will be in Fall 2013, with service entry most likely in early 2014. But of course only time will tell what actually happens.


----------



## AlanB

Nathanael said:


> I'm quite certain Amtrak will put cars into service as soon as they're delivered and tested, rather than waiting until they have a whole bunch. From Amtrak's point of view, they need relief for the crumbling Heritage fleet ASAP. Consider that Amtrak actually deployed the 8400 prototype diner, which would not have been normal practice.


Part of the reason for deploying 8400 was to ease the strain on the remaining Heritage diners a bit, not that one car does too much in that area.

But the bigger reason for deploying it was to ensure that the fiasco of 8400's first iteration was not repeated. Amtrak wanted the crews to actually work this car so as to ensure that the kitchen layout was smartly designed from the view of the people who actually have to work the car, rather than the view of the designer who was only concerned with fitting everything into the space allotted and not with practicality. They wanted to be sure that they got it right this time, and before they had 25 cars with failed designs out on the road.

In the first iteration of 8400 we had such wonderful things as the SA's needing to walk behind the cook at the grill making french toast or an omelet to get a glass of orange juice. From what I've heard from a few crews, while there are a few minor annoyances, by and large they got it right this time.

While I've heard no mention of such a plan; it would not surprise me at all that if Amtrak goes ahead with the plan to buy all new modules for the existing 50 sleepers as a way to refurbish them, that they actually buy 51 sets of modules and return sleeper 62091 (aka 2300) to service also.

The other original prototype sleeper 2300 is far too gone to ever be brought back. It resides in Wilmington where it continues to be used as a mock up for possible cafe cars and coaches.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

Well, at least they can get some good use out of the car as a mockup car.


----------



## dlagrua

The last report that I've heard stated delivery of the Viewliner II's beginning in Q1 13. Here we are at the end of Q2 and we should be getting close. Time for discussion to begin again. Anyone hear anything?


----------



## VentureForth

Last time you brought that up, wasn't the concensus that the earliest we would see the Viewliner IIs would be October, but early 2014 was more realistic?


----------



## dlagrua

We are now at the end of Q2 13. Time for discussion to begin again. Anyone hear anything?


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

dlagrua said:


> The last report that I've heard stated delivery of the Viewliner II's beginning in Q1 13. Here we are at the end of Q2 and we should be getting close. Time for discussion to begin again. Anyone hear anything?





dlagrua said:


> We are now at the end of Q2 13. Time for discussion to begin again. Anyone hear anything?






VentureForth said:


> Last time you brought that up, wasn't the concensus that the earliest we would see the Viewliner IIs would be October, but early 2014 was more realistic?


I agree with VentureForth.


----------



## VentureForth

Here is a reference from CAF: http://www.caf.es/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=189 stating simply "2014".

Now I would like to know why the long delays. If I know anything about manufacturing, estimates are always early (bad for the supplier) and the customer always wants changes (bad for the customer). Both push schedules to the right...


----------



## Nebulous Abyss

Why do you suppose the matter is kept so opaque? No pictures of semi completed cars, so explanation of delays, no factory views of the new interrior rooms... arn't WE railfans the best costomers Amtrak and CAF have? Shouldn't we be sold some SIZZLE!?!?!? Where's the excitment, the salesmanship?

I get inundated with American Airlines commercials every time I turn on Bloomburg.... and I doubt any of that stuff about new roomier planes is true anyway. The new viewliners howeve seem to have real potential, but what is up with all the secrecy. Sell the sizzle, sell the new cars, and sell out the tickets!

Ok, I'll settle down now... play the chirping crickets.


----------



## Ryan

Couple issues with that.

1) We've seen pictures of semi completed cars.

2) We've seen pictures of the new interiors.

3) What good would promotion do now? It's not possible to buy a ticket today to ride a train that will have one of these cars.


----------



## dlagrua

We will see no Viewliner II's in 2013. Per the CAF website, delivery is now in 2014. That probably means 12/20//14 just in time for Christmas. If it keeps going like this why before you know it delivery will be 2015.


----------



## afigg

dlagrua said:


> We will see no Viewliner II's in 2013. Per the CAF website, delivery is now in 2014. That probably means 12/20//14 just in time for Christmas. If it keeps going like this why before you know it delivery will be 2015.


There is nothing inconsistent with the CAF website statement with what Amtrak stated in January in their 2013 preview news release: "The delivery of the first four of the eight test pilot cars are due late in 2013 with the first units expected to be placed into service late spring 2014."

The first 4 cars may be turned over to Amtrak late in 2013, but the ramp-up of production to begin to deliver cars for revenue service would be 2014. depends on how "delivery" is defined. Of course, if a problem is found during the testing of the first 4 units, the production run would be delayed.

On the other hand, if the FY2014 funding from Congress is badly cut, Amtrak may have to postpone or cancel part of the order. I don't expect that would happen, but given the toxic political environment in the House, can't entirely be ruled out.


----------



## VentureForth

What I don't understand is the need to retest. Aren't the shell and trucks already certified? I thought only the interior modules were new.


----------



## dlagrua

> There is nothing inconsistent with the CAF website statement with what Amtrak stated in January in their 2013 preview news release:


But isn't it inconsistent with the announcement by Amtrak at the time the original order was placed?


----------



## VentureForth

dlagrua said:


> There is nothing inconsistent with the CAF website statement with what Amtrak stated in January in their 2013 preview news release:
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't it inconsistent with the announcement by Amtrak at the time the original order was placed?
Click to expand...

Sure. But aren't most ordered delayed?


----------



## afigg

dlagrua said:


> There is nothing inconsistent with the CAF website statement with what Amtrak stated in January in their 2013 preview news release:
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't it inconsistent with the announcement by Amtrak at the time the original order was placed?
Click to expand...

It is pretty obvious that there has been a major schedule slip since the order was placed with CAF in 2010 for various reasons. I was quoting what Amtrak stated in January 2013. The question is whether there has been any additional delays or schedule slips since then. We may not find out until the first 4 units are rolled out in a dog and pony show - whenever that happens.


----------



## afigg

VentureForth said:


> What I don't understand is the need to retest. Aren't the shell and trucks already certified? I thought only the interior modules were new.


These are cars from a new manufacturer and production run. There are undoubtedly many small differences and changes in the design and equipment from the original Viewliners built back in 1990s. A set of cars will have to go to Colorado to be put through their paces.

All of the cars will have to undergo a thorough inspection and an acceptance test procedure, and do test runs, presumably on the NEC before they are cleared for revenue service. Between the ACS-64s and Viewliner IIs, there are likely to be many late night sightings on the NEC over the next 2-3 years of deadhead trains of new equipment passing through stations.


----------



## Acela150

VentureForth said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing inconsistent with the CAF website statement with what Amtrak stated in January in their 2013 preview news release:
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't it inconsistent with the announcement by Amtrak at the time the original order was placed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure. But aren't most ordered delayed?
Click to expand...

For sure they are! Ask Septa and the MBTA how their orders with Hyundai Rotem are going? Rotem's first order in the U.S. was Metrolink followed by Septa's new Silverliner V's. Septa is getting these cars at well over 50% off, due to the "Penalty Clause" in the contract, which was $250 per car, per day. The very last SL V was delivered earlier this Spring. 5-6 years behind schedule. No Joke.. And shortly before the last SL V delivery, the MBTA got their first car which was scheduled to roll off the line in 2008.. 5 years behind schedule. The MBTA seriously considered canceling the contract with Rotem. They should have too. Rotem's workmanship is the worst I have EVER yes, that's EVER, seen. The welds on the SL V's look like someone who has never welded before made the weld. And on top of that their has been some serious, serious labor issues at the Rotem plant in South Philadelphia. Complaints of harassment, sexual harassment, and from what the local papers have said the majority of the employees and paid so low that they have to use food stamps, and were hired with NO experience. When one inquires about taking tours of their plant they are quickly turned down with a small handful being able to tour the plant.


----------



## trainviews

Acela150 said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing inconsistent with the CAF website statement with what Amtrak stated in January in their 2013 preview news release:
> 
> 
> 
> But isn't it inconsistent with the announcement by Amtrak at the time the original order was placed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure. But aren't most ordered delayed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For sure they are! Ask Septa and the MBTA how their orders with Hyundai Rotem are going? Rotem's first order in the U.S. was Metrolink followed by Septa's new Silverliner V's. Septa is getting these cars at well over 50% off, due to the "Penalty Clause" in the contract, which was $250 per car, per day. The very last SL V was delivered earlier this Spring. 5-6 years behind schedule. No Joke.. And shortly before the last SL V delivery, the MBTA got their first car which was scheduled to roll off the line in 2008.. 5 years behind schedule. The MBTA seriously considered canceling the contract with Rotem. They should have too. Rotem's workmanship is the worst I have EVER yes, that's EVER, seen. The welds on the SL V's look like someone who has never welded before made the weld. And on top of that their has been some serious, serious labor issues at the Rotem plant in South Philadelphia. Complaints of harassment, sexual harassment, and from what the local papers have said the majority of the employees and paid so low that they have to use food stamps, and were hired with NO experience. When one inquires about taking tours of their plant they are quickly turned down with a small handful being able to tour the plant.
Click to expand...

Well try to google "fyra" or "IC4" and just rejoice that nobody in America got the idea of buying an italian train (IC4 is running almost 10 years late now, and most of the dellivered train sets are out of service due to poor quality, Fyra has been banned from the tracks in Belgium and the order cancelled)


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

I think Miami did buy from that company.


----------



## Nathanael

I wonder if they're still having trouble with the carshells. Remember there was a delay which appears to have been due to CAF's difficulty hiring welders who were able to work with stainless steel (which requires specialized welding techniques). If that hasn't been fully sorted out yet, that could account for a lot of delays -- we could have interiors ready to go and Amtrak might not be satisfied with workmanship on the carshells. After some of the carshell horror stories which people just shared about various commuter rail orders...


----------



## winterskigirl

Is this the new "Dreamliner" for Amtrak?


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> When one inquires about taking tours of their plant they are quickly turned down with a small handful being able to tour the plant.


I have taken a tour of the plant arranged by DVARP in collaboration with SEPTA last year. Did not hear that they had any problem arranging it, but then again I did not ask specifically either.
Also, I have recently heard from usually reliable sources that two each of Sleeper, Diner and Bag pre production run cars will be out for testing in late fall this year. But of course ones mileage on these whispers from usually reliable sources may vary a bit. 

The delay may partially have to do with Amtrak's ability to pay for them too I suppose.

Incidentally it was CAF that fabricated all the cars for Heathrow Express service in the UK, and they appear to be fine cars to me, having ridden them many times.


----------



## Guest

winterskigirl said:


> Is this the new "Dreamliner" for Amtrak?


I don't think the Viewliners II have any new, groundbreaking, technologies onboard. Well, with the possible exception of the coffee pot.


----------



## jis

Guest said:


> winterskigirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the new "Dreamliner" for Amtrak?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the Viewliners II have any new, groundbreaking, technologies onboard. Well, with the possible exception of the coffee pot.
Click to expand...

Well put :lol:


----------



## Texan Eagle

winterskigirl said:


> Is this the new "Dreamliner" for Amtrak?


Not until one of them catches fire.... h34r:


----------



## jis

Or at least produces an alarming amount of smoke. But then I am sure that will happen sooner or later with an overheated bearing or a broken coffee pot, even the new tech coffee pot, or someone dozing off while smoking against the regulations.  AFAIK there are no LI-Ion batteries except for the ones in everyone's i-Devices and laptops and other mobile devices.


----------



## rickycourtney

jis said:


> Or at least produces an alarming amount of smoke. But then I am sure that will happen sooner or later with an overheated bearing or a broken coffee pot, even the new tech coffee pot, or someone dozing off while smoking against the regulations.  AFAIK there are no LI-Ion batteries except for the ones in everyone's i-Devices and laptops and other mobile devices.


I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries.

As to the production... on The Other train forum someone recently posted photos of several completed shells outside of the CAF factory in New York. If I'm counting correctly it appears that there is 6 shells complete (two baggage cars, two dining cars and two other (sleeping?) cars).

Here's the link: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3129404 (although if you're not a subscriber... they'll just appear as little thumbnails.)


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Nebulous Abyss said:


> Why do you suppose the matter is kept so opaque? No pictures of semi completed cars, so explanation of delays, no factory views of the new interrior rooms... arn't WE railfans the best costomers Amtrak and CAF have? Shouldn't we be sold some SIZZLE!?!?!? Where's the excitment, the salesmanship?
> I get inundated with American Airlines commercials every time I turn on Bloomburg.... and I doubt any of that stuff about new roomier planes is true anyway. The new viewliners howeve seem to have real potential, but what is up with all the secrecy. Sell the sizzle, sell the new cars, and sell out the tickets!
> 
> Ok, I'll settle down now... play the chirping crickets.


Whatever, isn't this what we see with every Amtrak equpment order? Or in fact anything new in the US transport industry seems to get dleayed to no end nowadays. Yeah, American took away More Room Throughout Coach and now they want to advertise more legroom? AFAIK, their new 777 planes have _less_ room than the industry average!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

The Bags look interesting, mainly because we are not use to seeing a "smooth side" Viewliner. I still wish they included some Lounges in the order so they can get rid of those horrid AmCan Lounges.


----------



## Guest

Swadian Hardcore said:


> AFAIK, their new 777 planes have _less_ room than the industry average!


Where does Boeing state that?

Airlines get to configure the seating as they wish. They can tightened up the rows on a 777, as they could on a 737 or a A380 too.


----------



## oldtimer

rickycourtney said:


> I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries.


 I am almost positive that the "new" Viewliners will be equipped with Nickel-Cadmium batteries as all of the Amtrak car fleet use for their batteries. I don't want to be negative but every new car or train set that has been delivered to Amtrak since 1973 has had

Ni-Cads.

I am always ready to share my experience for no charge, but I resist those comments about me being short.

:help:  :giggle:


----------



## jis

By the way I did not say "_I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries._" as I am quoted as saying in the post above.  _rickeycourtney _said that. The great editor in AU strikes again.


----------



## rickycourtney

Haha yes the editor is a real pain in the ass. I've found it easier to switch it into advanced mode and make sure it quotes people correctly.

For the record... I was being a smartass when I said lead-acid batteries. It was just the most low-tech thing I can think of. I realize most planes and trains use the tried and true NiCad batteries.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> By the way I did not say "_I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries._" as I am quoted as saying in the post above.  _rickeycourtney _said that. The great editor in AU strikes again.


Fixed.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Guest said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> AFAIK, their new 777 planes have _less_ room than the industry average!
> 
> 
> 
> Where does Boeing state that?
> 
> Airlines get to configure the seating as they wish. They can tightened up the rows on a 777, as they could on a 737 or a A380 too.
Click to expand...

What I meant is that AA is putting ten-abreast Economy Class seats in their new 777-323ER aircraft. That is less than the industry standard of nine-abreast. It's not targeting the 777, it's targeting the AA 777.


----------



## jis

You can find some nice photos of the modules here:

http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html


----------



## rickycourtney

There's a prototype Viewliner II roomette module on display inside the Amtrak Exhibit Train. I posted some photos of the prototype here. But if anyone's interested in seeing the prototype for themselves (and lives nearby) here's the schedule for the Exhibit Train:



> *Seattle, Wash.*, July 27 (10am-5pm) at King Street Station
> *Spokane, Wash.*, August 3 (10am-5pm) at the Amtrak station
> *Burlington, Iowa*, August 24 (10am-4pm) and 25th (12pm-5pm) at the Amtrak station
> The full schedule is posted here. Keep checking back, they'll likely update the schedule with more stops.


----------



## jis

I guess in another 4 to 6 months we may even be able to see the real thing.


----------



## gmushial

oldtimer said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure it will use nothing but low-tech lead-acid batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> I am almost positive that the "new" Viewliners will be equipped with Nickel-Cadmium batteries as all of the Amtrak car fleet use for their batteries. I don't want to be negative but every new car or train set that has been delivered to Amtrak since 1973 has had
> 
> Ni-Cads.
> 
> I am always ready to share my experience for no charge, but I resist those comments about me being short.
> 
> :help:  :giggle:
Click to expand...

Am wondering about these batteries - are they off-the-shelf industrial NiCad packs? Any idea what type of capacities etc... what I'm wondering is if there isn't room to move to NiMH type packs, or are the NiCads sufficiently special or industrial, that such might not be available or viable?


----------



## oldtimer

The Ni-Cads used are special built by SAFT if my memory serves me right. I can vouch that they are heavy, on a superliner the batteries are installed on the "B" end behind a series of louvered doors, the are installed on two separate shelves, and occupy about 90% of the floor space of that compartment. The battery charger/ low voltage power supply is located in the "B" end equipment room.


----------



## gmushial

Thanks for the reply. So, do I infer correctly, that most of the electrics on a superliner are dc operated and probably either 12 or 24 volt, ie, they run off the batteries directly; but the charger that charges the batteries is run off the high-voltage line from the HEP? Or are the electrics std 120v ac and they run the dc from the batteries through an inverter for such? Or, maybe both, ie, the original lighting etc is low voltage dc, but the 120v outlets at the passenger seats being 120v ac are run through an inverter, but only those outlets? ... had never though about the logistics of providing (electric) power to rail cars. I guess, before the question of batteries came up I had assumed/guessed that the power in the cars was simply an artifact of the HEP... but that would leave a car w/o power while being switched from train to train, or not connected to a loco, etc... so by having the batteries that would provide the necessary buffer.


----------



## Nathanael

These are looking good. Thanks for linking to the "spy" photos. Boy the people at trainorders are Negative Nellies. I like the Viewliner profile, myself; I can't wait until Amtrak gets some coaches and cafes and has a fully matching trainset.

I was worried about baggage capacity previously, due to the likely plans to use only Bag-Dorms on a number of eastern trains. What I hadn't noticed before is that the Viewliner Baggage cars will not only have shelving, they are also going to be 12 feet *longer* than pretty much all of the Heritage baggage cars. That should help quite a lot with capacity.


----------



## oldtimer

gmushial said:


> Thanks for the reply. So, do I infer correctly, that most of the electrics on a superliner are dc operated and probably either 12 or 24 volt, ie, they run off the batteries directly; but the charger that charges the batteries is run off the high-voltage line from the HEP? Or are the electrics std 120v ac and they run the dc from the batteries through an inverter for such? Or, maybe both, ie, the original lighting etc is low voltage dc, but the 120v outlets at the passenger seats being 120v ac are run through an inverter, but only those outlets? ... had never though about the logistics of providing (electric) power to rail cars. I guess, before the question of batteries came up I had assumed/guessed that the power in the cars was simply an artifact of the HEP... but that would leave a car w/o power while being switched from train to train, or not connected to a loco, etc... so by having the batteries that would provide the necessary buffer.


The DC voltage in railcars is supplied at 72VDC from the battery charger/low voltage power supply. When the 480 VAC 3 Phase Head End Power is on the DC is supplied by the low voltage power supply and is separate from the battery circuit. The battery charger portion just charges the batteries as needed so that the DC load does not go through the batteries until the HEP is off. There are other DC voltages that are supplied by an inverter for voltages above 72 VDC and resistors for lower than 72 VDC. The systems also have a load shed relay that keeps essential DC loads all the way to zero voltage.

The 480 VAC HEP provides heat, air conditioning, and waste evacuation. It also is transformed down for lighting, some of the control functions and the 120 VAC convenience outlets.

oldtimer


----------



## gmushial

And again, many thanks for the illuminating reply. ... so it sounds like my impression of the 480v being used for the heavy loads and the dc for the lighter ones was mistaken - it sounds like most of what a passenger sees is in fact running off the 480v ac (or transformed down products of it). Two further questions if I might: 1) what functions does the battery backed up DC service in a car, and 2) bringing this back to the original thread topic: as long as the interface to the 480vac 3ph is maintained, is there any reason that a new car (ViewlinerII) can't reengineer electrical usage within a car (it sounds like there is a mishmash of voltages and ac or dc within a car, ie, one legacy system upon another), or would any benefits of such be offset by now having a new maintenance scheme just for those new cars and still the old one for the older cars, and the costs associated with having two? ... sneaking in a third question: is there anywhere on the web one can read about the electrical usage within an (American) train?

yet again - many thanks - greg


----------



## jis

AFAIK the battery power supply is mostly used for providing lighting in the cars when HEP is out.

There really is not much mish mash of voltage. From a customer perspective there is basically 480 that they don;t get to see directly, but only in the form of HVAC, and 120.

With the battery driven subsystem, there is a choice of having parallel DC circuits with DC lights. but I think these days probably the same lights are used but a circuit with a subset of them in the car that is powered at the same 120v AC through an static converter/transformer pack.


----------



## Bus Nut

Hate the colors chosen but at least that means when they eventually refurb they can chose more pleasing, shopworn colors (blue, orange) than some sort of ill burgundy/purple heathered mess. (Looks 1990s hospital.)


----------



## gmushial

jis said:


> AFAIK the battery power supply is mostly used for providing lighting in the cars when HEP is out.
> There really is not much mish mash of voltage. From a customer perspective there is basically 480 that they don;t get to see directly, but only in the form of HVAC, and 120.
> 
> With the battery driven subsystem, there is a choice of having parallel DC circuits with DC lights. but I think these days probably the same lights are used but a circuit with a subset of them in the car that is powered at the same 120v AC through an static converter/transformer pack.


I wasn't so much thinking about what the customer sees, but what is actually present, (and thus has to be maintained) - was thinking that it might be more cost effective to run the heavy loads off the 480 and run the rest off of 120ac either "transformered" down from the 480 when it is present, or (pure sine wave) inverted up from the batteries when it is not. W/re mishmash - from "oldtimer's" post I think I see allusions to at least five voltages present in the car, ie, 2.5x the voltages which have to be maintained, and also, probably legacy loads which have become specialty items and might be more cost effectively replaced with more modern 120ac loads. [also would wonder about replacing the 72v NiCads packs with 48v NiMH ones - more standard off the shelf items, easier to interface to off the shelf inverters, and 2.5x the energy density.] ... what I think I'm seeing parallels what has happened to the IBM mainframes - in a desire to provide better performance super-web servers, yet still be able to run legacy software from the 1960s (s/360 days), they have produced an instruction set that is 5x the complexity of what has been there historically, and has actually raised the complexity to the point that few programmers will be able to grapple with it... sometimes one has to step away from the existing solutions/implementations and start afresh [understanding that the car-boundary interfaces can't be changed]. ... on one of our software products, some functions which were present in version 2, which became depreciated in version 3, in spite of the screams of their absolute necessity by some, simply eliminated them in version 4 [apologizing to those that "needed" them, suggested that they simply stay on ver 3... turns out that 80%+ upgraded to ver 4 anyway].... change can be difficult, but if managed properly can be made almost painless. ... this is all about the operating costs and trying to keep them as low a possible.


----------



## jis

I don't know the details of Superliners per se.

The new Bombardier MLVs that NJT just acquired is basically just 480v HVAC and all other devices and lights are run off of 120v AC. The power source for 120v AC circuits may be from HEP when it is on, or from battery. Not all circuits are fed from the battery, only certain small subset of circuits and operational devices are fed from battery via static inverter/transformer when HEP is out, and they also go through, a series of reduction in load by switching of select less important circuits as the battery discharges.


----------



## gmushial

jis said:


> I don't know the details of Superliners per se.
> The new Bombardier MLVs that NJT just acquired is basically* just 480v HVAC and all other devices and lights are run off of 120v AC*. The power source for 120v AC circuits may be from HEP when it is on, or from battery. Not all circuits are fed from the battery, only certain small subset of circuits and operational devices are fed from battery via static inverter/transformer when HEP is out, and they also go through, a series of reduction in load by switching of select less important circuits as the battery discharges.


This is what I'd expect for a system that was designed from scratch, today. Thus my question/quandary above w/re the multiple voltages etc, and wondering if such wasn't an opportunity for the SL2's.


----------



## jis

gmushial said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the details of Superliners per se.
> The new Bombardier MLVs that NJT just acquired is basically* just 480v HVAC and all other devices and lights are run off of 120v AC*. The power source for 120v AC circuits may be from HEP when it is on, or from battery. Not all circuits are fed from the battery, only certain small subset of circuits and operational devices are fed from battery via static inverter/transformer when HEP is out, and they also go through, a series of reduction in load by switching of select less important circuits as the battery discharges.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I'd expect for a system that was designed from scratch, today. Thus my question/quandary above w/re the multiple voltages etc, and wondering if such wasn't an opportunity for the SL2's.
Click to expand...

I'm sure SL2's electrical design is a clean slate design and does not necessarily carry forward all the crud from a 20 year old design in SL1s


----------



## bgiaquin

So will the Diners be #d 8401-8425?


----------



## jis

We'll know in a couple of months 

More than likely the production cars will get the usual 5 digit numbers though.


----------



## Trogdor

Last I heard, they would be the 68000 series.


----------



## battalion51

Theoretically the Viewliner numbering should follow that of the Superliners, if we ever get a full Viewliner fleet. So you've got sleepers 62xxx, lounges 63xxx, coaches 64xxx, diners 68xxx, dorms 69xxx. The wild card is the baggage cars, which if you look to the Superliner scheme it'd probably be 61xxx.


----------



## bgiaquin

battalion51 said:


> Theoretically the Viewliner numbering should follow that of the Superliners, if we ever get a full Viewliner fleet. So you've got sleepers 62xxx, lounges 63xxx, coaches 64xxx, diners 68xxx, dorms 69xxx. The wild card is the baggage cars, which if you look to the Superliner scheme it'd probably be 61xxx.


Thank you very much  . As to an entire fleet, I think someday they might experiment with viewliner coaches & lounges, or they might just create Amfleet IIIs. We have to wait and see. I would be fine with both.


----------



## jis

I think it is likely that Amtrak will claim that the Viewliner core is an example of the implementation of the PRIIA Single Level specification and run with it for all sorts of things based on that platform. As for others who have to acquire single level cars, they seem to each go their own way.

The problem with the single level passenger car market is that there are about 3 or 4 gorillas in the room in terms of car order volumes, and their volume requirements are such that they can actually negotiate prices with manufacturers to get whatever they like built at reasonable price. And the trend among them is to go with bi or multi levels even within the 14'6" height envelope, which is very different from what Amtrak and longer distance service providers consider to be ideal.


----------



## battalion51

bgiaquin said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Theoretically the Viewliner numbering should follow that of the Superliners, if we ever get a full Viewliner fleet. So you've got sleepers 62xxx, lounges 63xxx, coaches 64xxx, diners 68xxx, dorms 69xxx. The wild card is the baggage cars, which if you look to the Superliner scheme it'd probably be 61xxx.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much  . As to an entire fleet, I think someday they might experiment with viewliner coaches & lounges, or they might just create Amfleet IIIs. We have to wait and see. I would be fine with both.
Click to expand...

Personally I think it would be a huge mistake if the Viewliner platform wasn't used for the next generation of lounge cars. If there is one place where it makes total sense to have the Viewliner fleet applied it is in the lounge. Ideally you would see the seating of the Sightseer Lounge partially replicated.


----------



## bgiaquin

battalion51 said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Theoretically the Viewliner numbering should follow that of the Superliners, if we ever get a full Viewliner fleet. So you've got sleepers 62xxx, lounges 63xxx, coaches 64xxx, diners 68xxx, dorms 69xxx. The wild card is the baggage cars, which if you look to the Superliner scheme it'd probably be 61xxx.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much  . As to an entire fleet, I think someday they might experiment with viewliner coaches & lounges, or they might just create Amfleet IIIs. We have to wait and see. I would be fine with both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Personally I think it would be a huge mistake if the Viewliner platform wasn't used for the next generation of lounge cars. If there is one place where it makes total sense to have the Viewliner fleet applied it is in the lounge. Ideally you would see the seating of the Sightseer Lounge partially replicated.
Click to expand...

That is a very good idea. I think Viewliners would work well as coaches, too.


----------



## dlagrua

In 2 1/2 months 2014 will be here. Does anyone know if CAF will start by delivering all Baggage and Dining cars first or will they be delivering a mix from the gitgo? At the way things are going it may be Q2 before delivery starts but we'll see. I was hoping to see at least a new diner on our coast to coast trip in June that begin in PHL on the CDL.


----------



## jis

I suspect nothing will happen as long as Amtrak is in "preserve cash for any eventuality" mode of operation. Just my random guess.


----------



## Nathanael

"I suspect nothing will happen as long as Amtrak is in "preserve cash for any eventuality" mode of operation. Just my random guess."

I hope you're wrong, because that would be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

The new Viewliners are *critically* important for the future bottom line, and the future cash flow, of the Eastern long-distance trains! Every month they don't show up gets closer to wasting millions on overhauling clapped-out Heritage diners -- or simply suspending long-distance dining car service, which would be very bad for revenues. And they're being assigned to the profitable or close-to-profitable long-distance trains, in order to make them more profitable. Furthermore, the clapped-out Heritage dining cars probably have meaningful resale (==cash) value by selling them to less-intensive, lower-frequency tourist operations... once Amtrak stops using them.

Under current circumstances, Amtrak would honestly be much better served by ending the Sunset Limited (which I don't recommend, of course) than it would be by cancelling or significantly delaying the Viewliner order!

At least for the diners. Amtrak really, really needs those diners, like, last year. According to the last version of the Fleet Strategy Plan, Amtrak was planning to have 13 already by now -- and it doesn't. This is very, very bad. The Heritage diners are a money pit, and one which Amtrak needs to get rid of ASAP.


----------



## afigg

Nathanael said:


> The new Viewliners are *critically* important for the future bottom line, and the future cash flow, of the Eastern long-distance trains! Every month they don't show up gets closer to wasting millions on overhauling clapped-out Heritage diners -- or simply suspending long-distance dining car service, which would be very bad for revenues.
> 
> ...


I'm sure Boardman and Amtrak management want to start delivery of the CAF Viewliners. However, Amtrak is dealing with a unpredictable budget situation. No one knows when the shutdown will be over and what the final FY2014 appropriation amounts for Amtrak and transportation will be. We do not know what the cash balance situation is for Amtrak at present and when the progress payments to CAF are due.

All we can go by is the statement in the Amtrak 2013 preview news release, issued in January, that stated "The delivery of the first four of the eight test pilot cars are due late in 2013 with the first units expected to be placed into service late spring 2014.". There are still over 2-1/2 months to go in 2013.


----------



## ACS-64

Media event involving the Viewliner IIs October 24th at the NY plant...rumour has it.


----------



## afigg

ACS-64 said:


> Media event involving the Viewliner IIs October 24th at the NY plant...rumour has it.


That is a good rumor to hear. Would ease some concerned posters if there is a roll-out of new shiny cars at the CAF plant.


----------



## Guest

gmushial said:


> ... what I think I'm seeing parallels what has happened to the IBM mainframes - in a desire to provide better performance super-web servers, yet still be able to run legacy software from the 1960s (s/360 days), they have produced an instruction set that is 5x the complexity of what has been there historically, and has actually raised the complexity to the point that few programmers will be able to grapple with it... sometimes one has to step away from the existing solutions/implementations and start afresh [understanding that the car-boundary interfaces can't be changed]. ... on one of our software products, some functions which were present in version 2, which became depreciated in version 3, in spite of the screams of their absolute necessity by some, simply eliminated them in version 4 [apologizing to those that "needed" them, suggested that they simply stay on ver 3... turns out that 80%+ upgraded to ver 4 anyway].... change can be difficult, but if managed properly can be made almost painless. ... this is all about the operating costs and trying to keep them as low a possible.


From my own parallels with IBM Mainframes, they were designed with numerous different power voltages. The thinking was that one would need multiple power supplies, to supply enough power (1,000's of amps) to all the logic. So, if they needed multiple power supplies anyway, they might as well design each supply to provide the perfect or optimum voltage needed for each Mainframe element.


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> All we can go by is the statement in the Amtrak 2013 preview news release, issued in January, that stated "The delivery of the first four of the eight test pilot cars are due late in 2013 with the first units expected to be placed into service late spring 2014.". There are still over 2-1/2 months to go in 2013.


Ah, I'd interpreted that one as meaning Fiscal Year 2013. If it means calendar year 2013... then things are on track. 



ACS-64 said:


> Media event involving the Viewliner IIs October 24th at the NY plant...rumour has it.


That would be lovely. I could actually make that event (it's within easy driving distance) if Amtrak announced that it was happening. Sadly I probably don't qualify as media.
Seeing a pilot car or two come out would ease my fears a lot.


----------



## abcnews

I heard from someone at Amtrak that the Viewliner fleet will one day replace every car in their system. I am not so sure that it will happen that way - since I do love the Superliners and the Sightseer lounge (Superliner). But he mentioned that the long term goal is all Viewliner equipment - and one plant making the cars, with a consistent buyer (Amtrak).

Then any equipment could be freely used on any train. One lounge, one coach, one Sleeper and one Diner - all a single level platform and with the Viewliner profile.

But just replacing the East Coast could take twenty or thirty years at the current pace of production. So I would not really worry for many years on the western trains, not to mention, their plans could change again.


----------



## SarahZ

I like being on the upper level, but I've always thought it would be nice to have a window for the top bunk. I wouldn't mind if they replaced the Superliners if it meant a window bunk instead of a coffin.


----------



## abcnews

The Viewliner is a bit more like the look and feel of a classic rail car. So that aspect is nice.

The only drawback is probably the current Sightseer lounge. I heard the Viewliner lounge has a more solid rooftop - so less sky, etc... And it rides a few feet lower. But the diner would be an improvement as well as the rooms. Coaches would be about the same - but lower to the ground. But again, more like a classic train.

It would also free up more equipment.


----------



## sitzplatz17

This seems unlikely as the fleet plan i've seen mention the desire to make a Superliner III order sometime. Besides, there's a huge order of bi-level corridor cars being worked on as well. First one of those will be delivered 2016 i think?


----------



## jis

abcnews said:


> I heard from someone at Amtrak that the Viewliner fleet will one day replace every car in their system. I am not so sure that it will happen that way - since I do love the Superliners and the Sightseer lounge (Superliner). But he mentioned that the long term goal is all Viewliner equipment - and one plant making the cars, with a consistent buyer (Amtrak).


Perhaps someone is just pulling your legs or you misinterpreted what said someone told you. I don't know who told you that, but the guy who manages Amtrak's Capital Program does not believe so.  Yes, all single level equipment will eventually be replaced by something like Viewliners. But bi-level equipment will be replaced by bi-level if and when they are replaced.


----------



## SarahZ

Rats. No window bunk for me. -_- Guess I'll just have to take a trip on a Viewliner someday.


----------



## rickycourtney

sitzplatz17 said:


> Besides, there's a huge order of bi-level corridor cars being worked on as well. First one of those will be delivered 2016 i think?


The first cars are scheduled to be delivered in late 2015, with the final car to be delivered by early 2018.


----------



## afigg

abcnews said:


> I heard from someone at Amtrak that the Viewliner fleet will one day replace every car in their system. I am not so sure that it will happen that way - since I do love the Superliners and the Sightseer lounge (Superliner). But he mentioned that the long term goal is all Viewliner equipment - and one plant making the cars, with a consistent buyer (Amtrak).


I think you either mis-understood or misheard him or her. The east will get single-level cars, which could well be all Viewliners for the Regionals, Keystones, off-NEC corridor cars. The Mid-west and west Coast, however, will be the domain of the bi-level or Superliner cars. There is an order with Nippon-Sharyo for 130 corridor bi-level cars for IL, MI, MO, and CA with options for 300 more bi-levels. The Amtrak Fleet Strategy Plan calls for Superliner replacements for the western LD trains and the Capitol Limited.

Your source is also likely thinking of the earlier fleet strategy plans which called for steady stream of single level and bi-level orders. Version 3.1 changed that for more concentrated orders over circa 5-6 year periods with long gaps of no orders between them.


----------



## abcnews

Actually I hope you are right. Maybe he was way off. It just seemed odd when he mentioned that they really wanted to keep one plant continually at work, yaer after year - making the same type of cars, which does have a bit of long term logic. And I know in the past - the Viewliner company had gone bust from the feast/famine supply of orders coming in from Amtrak.

I think the Superliner design is by far the most perfect rail car ever made. It's by far the best use of space in a moving rail car.

However - he mentioned that the feedback from crews is dramatically different, and he said Amtrak really took that into consideration... that the crews can not get disabled folks up and down the stairs, smokers can hide out in lower levels, open windows, etc, etc.. The crews prefer the ease of walking car to car with no hidden levels and they like having everything in clear view. There is tremendous liability in keeping the train safe and secure....The Superliners are just harder on the crews...

Add to that - NYC and the Northeast is the real hub of Amtrak, and Superliners can not go through the tunnels. The trains that generate the bulk of the revenue are NEC trains.

I was not too concerned with any of this, because even though I do like the new Viewliner designs, and I do trust Amtrak to make the right decisions, but deep down, I know all of this would take decades to enact. So in the mean time I will enjoy trips on Superliner equipment and I will continue to spend my train trips in the Sightseer lounge.


----------



## NE933

Your fears are justified. Good trains make for healthy living and travel, and not having them causes great harm, which hurts.


----------



## NAthanael

abcnews said:


> I heard from someone at Amtrak that the Viewliner fleet will one day replace every car in their system. I am not so sure that it will happen that way - since I do love the Superliners and the Sightseer lounge (Superliner).


Maybe what he meant was that bilevel Viewliners would be introduced. How do you like the idea of a Superliner sleeper with four rows of windows?  I like it....


----------



## Nathanael

bgiaquin said:


> As to an entire fleet, I think someday they might experiment with viewliner coaches & lounges, or they might just create Amfleet IIIs. We have to wait and see. I would be fine with both.


For reference, one of the last two remaining "prototype Viewliner shells" is now being used at Beech Grove as a testbed for long-distance single-level coach designs; this has been popping up in Amtrak budget reports for a while. So I think Amtrak plans for Viewliner coaches.

I would assume they would then use Viewliner-profile lounges as well. Though I would love it if they could manage Superliner-style skylights within the profile (I don't know whether it would be considered structurally sound). But that's all a long way in the future, unfortunately...


----------



## bgiaquin

NAthanael said:


> abcnews said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard from someone at Amtrak that the Viewliner fleet will one day replace every car in their system. I am not so sure that it will happen that way - since I do love the Superliners and the Sightseer lounge (Superliner).
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe what he meant was that bilevel Viewliners would be introduced. How do you like the idea of a Superliner sleeper with four rows of windows?  I like it....
Click to expand...

Bilevel viewliner? that would be interesting!


----------



## bgiaquin

Nathanael said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> As to an entire fleet, I think someday they might experiment with viewliner coaches & lounges, or they might just create Amfleet IIIs. We have to wait and see. I would be fine with both.
> 
> 
> 
> For reference, one of the last two remaining "prototype Viewliner shells" is now being used at Beech Grove as a testbed for long-distance single-level coach designs; this has been popping up in Amtrak budget reports for a while. So I think Amtrak plans for Viewliner coaches.
> 
> I would assume they would then use Viewliner-profile lounges as well. Though I would love it if they could manage Superliner-style skylights within the profile (I don't know whether it would be considered structurally sound). But that's all a long way in the future, unfortunately...
Click to expand...

Wonderful!, I cannot wait.


----------



## cirdan

abcnews said:


> However - he mentioned that the feedback from crews is dramatically different, and he said Amtrak really took that into consideration... that the crews can not get disabled folks up and down the stairs, smokers can hide out in lower levels, open windows, etc, etc.. The crews prefer the ease of walking car to car with no hidden levels and they like having everything in clear view. There is tremendous liability in keeping the train safe and secure....The Superliners are just harder on the crews...


All that is true, but the future bi-level cars for LD trains need not be a clone of the present Superliners. Many of the issues you describe can be fixed. Windows can be locked. Doors can be interlocked. Even a wheelchair elevator is not beyond the realm of the possible.

On the other hand, it all boils down to the economics. Single level cars means that trains will have to be longer to provide the same capacity. Will all stations be able to handle that? Will locomotives need more power to pull the extra weight? A lower level of car will of course lose some of the viewability experience from the present Superliner lounge cars. Maybe somebody con bring back some version of the dome to make up for that.

At the end of the day, myriad reasons will influence the decision, and it will be difficult to second guess the outcome so many years in advance.


----------



## bgiaquin

cirdan said:


> abcnews said:
> 
> 
> 
> However - he mentioned that the feedback from crews is dramatically different, and he said Amtrak really took that into consideration... that the crews can not get disabled folks up and down the stairs, smokers can hide out in lower levels, open windows, etc, etc.. The crews prefer the ease of walking car to car with no hidden levels and they like having everything in clear view. There is tremendous liability in keeping the train safe and secure....The Superliners are just harder on the crews...
> 
> 
> 
> All that is true, but the future bi-level cars for LD trains need not be a clone of the present Superliners. Many of the issues you describe can be fixed. Windows can be locked. Doors can be interlocked. Even a wheelchair elevator is not beyond the realm of the possible.
> 
> On the other hand, it all boils down to the economics. Single level cars means that trains will have to be longer to provide the same capacity. Will all stations be able to handle that? Will locomotives need more power to pull the extra weight? A lower level of car will of course lose some of the viewability experience from the present Superliner lounge cars. Maybe somebody con bring back some version of the dome to make up for that.
> 
> At the end of the day, myriad reasons will influence the decision, and it will be difficult to second guess the outcome so many years in advance.
Click to expand...

I know many of the stations on long distance routes that use SLs have platforms that cannot handle longer trains. In fact, many of those many can barely handle the current length of those trains. But extra weight? I thought single level cars weigh a lot less than superliners?


----------



## Ryan

They also carry a lot less people, so you'll have a heavier train to have the same capacity.


----------



## jis

However, weight of the train is one of the lesser things to worry about specially in the USA which has very robust tracks since they have to carry 286klb freight cars on 4 axles.


----------



## Blackwolf

A simple, quick search on the internet provides the following information:

*Superliner/Multi-Level Long-Distance Amtrak Train*:


Heritage Baggage: 120,000 pounds
TransDorm:165,000 pounds
Sleeper: 165,000 pounds / 42 seats
Diner: 170,000 pounds
Lounge:146,000 pounds
Coach:148,000 pounds / 74 seats
So, for a typical Western LD train consiting of baggage/transdorm/sleeper/sleeper/diner/lounge/coach/coach/coach, we come up with a ballpark estimate of:


1,375,000 pounds, or 688 tons for a 9-car train.
A maximum capacity in terms of all seats/accommodations filled of about 305 people, not counting the crew.
*In order to haul the same number of passengers using the current Amfleet/Heritage/Viewliner single-level trains we would need:*


1 Heritage Baggage (120,000 pounds.)
4 Viewliner sleepers (Unknown weight, but probably around 130,000 pounds each.)
1 Heritage diner (Unknown weight, but likely in the 140,000 pound range.)
1 Amfleet lounge (110,000 pounds.)
4 Amfleet II coaches (116,000 pounds a-piece.)

Total weight using the above numbers comes out to be:


1,354,000 pounds, or 677 tons for an 11-car train.

*Disclaimer: This is by no means 100% accurate, and is based off of information gained from the internet. Amtrak does not post any official information about the weights of it's rolling stock ANYWHERE, so I imagine the numbers here are as much gospel as someone counting jelly beans in a jar.


----------



## bgiaquin

Thanks for the info.


----------



## benjibear

As far as the conductors not seeing the other levels, with camera technology getting better every year, it is probably not that uneconomical to install cameras throughout the train to monitor any suspicions activity. The conductor can watch a monitor in addition to walking the train to find these people with bad behavior.


----------



## AlanB

Nathanael said:


> For reference, one of the last two remaining "prototype Viewliner shells" is now being used at Beech Grove as a testbed for long-distance single-level coach designs; this has been popping up in Amtrak budget reports for a while. So I think Amtrak plans for Viewliner coaches.


Last I knew that car, 2300, was at the Wilmington Shops. Those who did the shop tour last year at the Gathering saw this car sitting outside one of the buildings where we started the tour. And there are several photos that got posted of that car.


----------



## Ryan

Yep, she was there a year ago:





Philly_Train_Trip_1 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr





Philly_Train_Trip_40 by Ryan Stavely, on Flickr


----------



## cirdan

bgiaquin said:


> Thanks for the info.


 +1


----------



## battalion51

benjibear said:


> As far as the conductors not seeing the other levels, with camera technology getting better every year, it is probably not that uneconomical to install cameras throughout the train to monitor any suspicions activity. The conductor can watch a monitor in addition to walking the train to find these people with bad behavior.


Its a struggle to get the PA working on some of the single level equipment, much less to get cameras going. Also, the Single Level fleet has never had an adequate, dedicated space for the Conductor and AC to be able to do their work. The Conductor's "office" in the Amfleet II cafes is entirely too small for one, but still leaves nowhere to go for the AC. Not saying its impossible to do cameras, but baby steps...


----------



## Nathanael

AlanB said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> For reference, one of the last two remaining "prototype Viewliner shells" is now being used at Beech Grove as a testbed for long-distance single-level coach designs; this has been popping up in Amtrak budget reports for a while. So I think Amtrak plans for Viewliner coaches.
> 
> 
> 
> Last I knew that car, 2300, was at the Wilmington Shops. Those who did the shop tour last year at the Gathering saw this car sitting outside one of the buildings where we started the tour. And there are several photos that got posted of that car.
Click to expand...

I realize now that I ASSumed the work was being done at Beech Grove; perhaps the testbed work is being done at Wilmington? Or was it moved? Anyway, where-ever it's being done, it's being used to design a long-distance coach, and Amtrak is actually spending scarce cash on doing so.


----------



## bgiaquin

cirdan said:


> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> 
> 
> +1
Click to expand...

What does +1 mean?


----------



## John Bredin

bgiaquin said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bgiaquin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What does +1 mean?
Click to expand...

"I agree!" or "Ditto!" in internet usage.


----------



## OBS

Nathanael said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> 
> For reference, one of the last two remaining "prototype Viewliner shells" is now being used at Beech Grove as a testbed for long-distance single-level coach designs; this has been popping up in Amtrak budget reports for a while. So I think Amtrak plans for Viewliner coaches.
> 
> 
> 
> Last I knew that car, 2300, was at the Wilmington Shops. Those who did the shop tour last year at the Gathering saw this car sitting outside one of the buildings where we started the tour. And there are several photos that got posted of that car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I realize now that I ASSumed the work was being done at Beech Grove; perhaps the testbed work is being done at Wilmington? Or was it moved? Anyway, where-ever it's being done, it's being used to design a long-distance coach, and Amtrak is actually spending scarce cash on doing so.
Click to expand...

It could very well have been moved. I saw the 2300 in Wilm about 2 months ago, but it looked like it was ready to be moved at that time. It had been brought out front by the "exchange" tracks next to the corridor. I thought that was kind of odd as I usually did not see it when going by on the train.


----------



## MrFSS

Amtrak Blog has some news and photos about the new cars. *LINK*


----------



## Ryan

Summer '14 for revenue service, according to the end of the video.


----------



## jis

Here's the video


----------



## printman2000

Did anyone notice the paint on these cars? Looks like Phase III along with the old Amtrak logo.


----------



## Ryan

Yeah, that's been discussed in the other thread.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/53554-acs-64-and-vl-iis-status/page-5

Confusing having the same conversation twice.


----------



## bgiaquin

PHASE III REVIVAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## NE933

cautiously salivating....!!


----------



## SarahZ

That's a snazzy paint job.


----------



## VT Hokie

Gonna make for some crappy looking consists, with a mix of Phase III and the (much classier imo) Phase IV.


----------



## jis

Brian Gallagher had alluded to the possible move to Phase III last year at a sidebar conversation at an ESPA meeting last year. Generally people seem to like Phase III more than Phase IV apparently. It certainly is much brighter, compared to the more sombre Phase IV.


----------



## VT Hokie

I prefer Phase IV, but the most unfortunate thing about it is that whatever color scheme Amtrak goes with, trains look the worst when it's a mix of different ones. At least after many years of mix & match the fleet finally looks consistent.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Hopefully this will stop all the hand-wringing about where are the cars, will they actually be built, etc. The "old is new" paint scheme is neat. Mixing the various paint schemes certainly doesn't affect ridership or how the passenger experiences the trip. Stainless steel makes up the vast majority of the car sides. Most people won't even notice or care.


----------



## TommyBNSF

I thought it was really neat back in the early to mid 2000's with mixes of Phase III, IV, and V being used. Makes it look like a rainbow train.


----------



## VT Hokie

TommyBNSF said:


> I thought it was really neat back in the early to mid 2000's with mixes of Phase III, IV, and V being used. Makes it look like a rainbow train.


It does make it look like a rainbow train. I thought that looked awful though!


----------



## SarahZ

Woody said:


> Amtrack Auto Train
> ShippingSidekick.com/AutoTrain
> 
> We ship cars for less than you can drive them there. Free quote here!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Off topic, but very much on this thread: I'd be more impressed
> 
> with this advertiser if they spelled the name right. Dayum.


I'm guessing that's a spam site, not an actual Amtrak site, so I wouldn't click it. In fact, maybe Anthony can get the ad removed.


----------



## Ryan

Anthony can't, he's retired.

GBAdmin, maybe.


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> Anthony can't, he's retired.
> 
> GBAdmin, maybe.


Acccckkkk. This weekend got me all confused again. Sorry, GB!


----------



## NE933

Somber is the right word. It looked ok in the beginning, but the dark navy, lots of grey, and a teeny bit of red sponges on any sort of uplift one can muster. We NEED something bright, even if it was a Phase 6 something different. Big time. Some color. Please! Thank you, Joe B.


----------



## afigg

Trains Magazine has a News Wire report with a few photos: Amtrak previews second-generation Viewliners with retro paint scheme. Unfortunately the report is behind a pay wall, so it is only accessible AFAIK to subscribers. The photo of a baggage car (sans paint scheme) shows 2 doors on each side in case people were wondering what the baggage cars would look like.


----------



## jis

This NARP Blog has some additional information. The VL IIs are not going to Pueblo at all. They will be tested at CAF and then on the NEC.


----------



## NE933

Then what takes so long, why do we have to wait until Summer 2014? We need this fleet to start ASAP, I mean, December of this year ought to be latest.


----------



## Ryan

It also says sleepers are coming last.


----------



## Woody

I think this order could work very well.

baggage cars on one track = 55

25 diners/ 25 crew dorms/ 25 sleepers = 75

Then add the 70-car option

more baggage cars on the same track = 30 = total 85 new baggage cars

15 sleepers/ 15 crew dorms/ 15 diners = 45 = total 120 other

Note that the option sleepers would come down

the assembly line immediately after the first 25

finish the first order.

One line could take another order for baggage cars,

up to 35 more, or it could shift into building coaches.


----------



## afigg

RyanS said:


> It also says sleepers are coming last.


Quoting the NARP blog: "During production, two types of cars will be produced—baggage cars throughout, and one other type of car in this sequence: diners first, then baggage dorms, then sleepers." The production order makes sense in terms of meeting the most critical need: replacing the heritage diners and baggage cars ASAP. The baggage-dorms will replace the heritage baggage cars and expand capacity in roomettes at the same time. There will be a transition period of switching from baggage cars to baggage-dorms and then adding sleeper cars to the LD trains where we may see rooms added for sale on short notice when they know which specific train will have the new equipment.

The delay of deployment to the summer of 2014 may be to build up a supply of the new diner cars so they can switch all the consists for an LD service to the new diner car in a couple of days as the trains pass through SSY. Then they can switch food supply service to supporting the new diner cars and on-board service to electronic POS system for that train.

The production order of the 25 diners first also indicates that if people want to take a meal in a heritage diner car before they are done, they should do so soon. The eastern LD trains could all switch to the new diner cars by the fall of 2014.


----------



## afigg

Woody said:


> Then add the 70-car option
> 
> more baggage cars on the same track = 30 = total 85 new baggage cars
> 
> 15 sleepers/ 15 crew dorms/ 15 diners = 45 = total 120 other


It is very unlikely that Amtrak will exercise the entire 70 car option, especially in the numbers of types specified. Especially 30 more baggage cars which is more than they need even with expansion in the foreseeable future. If Amtrak were to get more funding from Congress in FY14 or FY15, the best that could be hoped for would be a small matching number of baggage-dorms and diners, 10 to 15 sleepers, and then a few more baggage cars to round out the fleet.
The big push by Amtrak, if they can get any traction on Capitol Hill, would be for a follow-on order of coach and cafe-lounge cars, starting with Amfleet II replacements. With the CAF Elmira plant employing 400 to 500 people to build the Viewliners, go to Senators Schumer, Gillibrand and the NY House representatives and emphasize the good paying jobs that would be preserved with a series of follow-on orders for up to 700 single level cars spread over the next 10 years. Works for DOD contractors all the time, so Amtrak can try the same tactic.


----------



## cpamtfan

Adding to what afigg stated, it also makes things easier once they have a set number of cars avalible. Say you need 4 sets of new sleepers for the Silver Star. Well if you only have 1 new car avalible, where are the other cars coming from? It's all about timing it out, you can't just get one car and throw it into the black hole.


----------



## Nathanael

So, after watching the video from Amtrak with all the shots of the cars:

The oddest thing to me is that the baggage cars have doors which swing in, rather than roll-up doors. Perhaps it was decided that these were easier to seal shut against the weather. It reduces the usable space in the baggage car, however.

Also, the shelving units? It's very hard to tell, but it looks to me like there are a total of two rack-style shelves per unit, one basically on the floor and one halfway up; a very minor improvement in storage space. This *does* keep bags off the floor and prevents them from getting wet.

However, a bag-dorm is certainly going to handle the peak baggage load from NY on the LSL, and probably not on the Silver Meteor either -- it has less capacity than the existing baggage cars. The baggage section in a bag-dorm is a lot shorter than in a current "short" baggage car, and loses the space in front of the doors entirely. The second row of shelves doesn't make up for this. Amtrak will be adding full baggage cars to trains in peak; there will be no choice about this.

Finally, the baggage cars appear to be well-insulated (...unlike the existing baggage cars). This may allow for several possibilities.


----------



## Nathanael

uh, "certainly not going to handle..."


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> Quoting the NARP blog: "During production, two types of cars will be producedbaggage cars throughout, and one other type of car in this sequence: diners first, then baggage dorms, then sleepers."


The only unfortunate thing about this is that it may mean that the "deadline" for exercising a diner or bag-dorm option may be quite early. (I don't know. Perhaps it won't be so hard to switch the production line back from sleepers to bag-dorms or to diners.)


----------



## Nathanael

afigg said:


> The delay of deployment to the summer of 2014 may be to build up a supply of the new diner cars so they can switch all the consists for an LD service to the new diner car in a couple of days as the trains pass through SSY. Then they can switch food supply service to supporting the new diner cars and on-board service to electronic POS system for that train.


I would also expect that Amtrak would want to switch an entire service to the new diners all at once.
With 75 non-baggage cars on the production line, with a planned final delivery late in 2015, and with the first car supposed to come off the line late this year, this indicates that roughly 37 cars will come off each line each year, or about 9-10 each quarter, starting Q1 2014. My guesses are based on these assumptions.

Now, we have been told that the LSL will get the first new cars. I have also been told that the LSL trainsets are currently routinely rotated with the Silver Star trainsets in the winter. This means that, in order to introduce the new diners during the winter, Amtrak would need at least 7 diners, plus a spare at each terminal (to avoid regressing service in case of problems), for a total of 10. But there won't *be* 10 diners in the winter -- not until spring. I would expect that the "Summer 2014" announcement is a sensible attempt to avoid overpromising, in case of delays; "Spring 2014" is more likely for the first deployment.

The diners should deploy pretty fast at that point. Calculating, the Heritage diners are likely to be retired by July 2014! (The Cardinal might receive a full dining car somewhat later than that.)

Speculating on bag-dorm deployment is more interesting to me. I don't think there will be enough to reliably deploy them until late in 2014. Amtrak might possibly be able to get the first deployment on one or two routes before Thanksgiving 2014 (there might possibly be as many as 11 bag-dorms by then, but probably fewer). Amtrak might want to deploy them before Thanksgiving 2014 to get the extra sleeper revenue, or Amtrak might not want to disrupt things immediately before Thanksgiving. I don't know.

Early spring 2015 should see all the bag-dorms deployed and still no new sleepers.  I actually suspect that Amtrak will sit down and reassess sleeper demand over the next couple of months after that; having just added a lot of revenue space to each train via the bag-dorms, it may become much clearer how high the sleeping compartment demand actually is on individual trains. It will also start to be clear whether any trains will be likely to exceed the baggage capacity of the bag-dorm during peak, and this can be ascertained before the peak happens -- although this will be off-peak, standard patterns for peak vs. off-peak can be presumed. This will probably also be around the time when Amtrak has to commit to any exercise of the option (though the option may need to be exercised even earlier, I don't know).


----------



## AlanB

jis said:


> This NARP Blog has some additional information. The VL IIs are not going to Pueblo at all. They will be tested at CAF and then on the NEC.


Unless the production run is going to be different than the prototype, I do see one error in the NARP piece:



> The dining cars have 12 tables, including one ADA table (seats on just one side).


Again, assuming that the prototype is the model, then there is a drop down seat on the wall at the ADA table. So it can either be used to provide normal seating at that table or it can be put up to accommodate wheelchair patron.

And of course this only actually works for the passenger in the H-room adjacent to the dining car. Those in subsequent sleepers will still be unable to roll through the hallways to reach the dining car. It also only works if Sunnyside actually orientates the dining car properly, something that they didn't do on the very first run of the reworked prototype.


----------



## PRR 60

The CAF production diners are not 100% modeled on the #8400 prototype. The prototype was more to test out the kitchen and serving ergonomics. The car was fitted-out with available fixtures. The production run uses custom-designed fixtures and will be somewhat different in appearance. Whether that difference includes the ADA accommodation, I'm not sure. Given that NARP was given a tour of the production car, it might.


----------



## AlanB

PRR 60 said:


> The CAF production diners are not 100% modeled on the #8400 prototype. The prototype was more to test out the kitchen and serving ergonomics. The car was fitted-out with available fixtures. The production run uses custom-designed fixtures and will be somewhat different in appearance. Whether that difference includes the ADA accommodation, I'm not sure. Given that NARP was given a tour of the production car, it might.


The new cars, as well as the prototype, have the ADA table. I suppose that there is a chance for some odd reason that the drop down seat was eliminated from the production run, but I rather doubt that.


----------



## rickycourtney

Nathanael said:


> So, after watching the video from Amtrak with all the shots of the cars:
> 
> The oddest thing to me is that the baggage cars have doors which swing in, rather than roll-up doors. Perhaps it was decided that these were easier to seal shut against the weather. It reduces the usable space in the baggage car, however.
> 
> Also, the shelving units? It's very hard to tell, but it looks to me like there are a total of two rack-style shelves per unit, one basically on the floor and one halfway up; a very minor improvement in storage space. This *does* keep bags off the floor and prevents them from getting wet.
> 
> Finally, the baggage cars appear to be well-insulated (...unlike the existing baggage cars). This may allow for several possibilities.


I've heard a lot of Amtrak employees say they like the inward swinging doors. They say there are a lot of maintenance issues with the rolling and sliding doors. Also these new doors create a seal allowing for better climate control (especially important on the baggage/dorm cars.)

Your description of the racks is accurate based on all the photos I've seen. Having the nearly floor level racks keeps bags off the floor and oriented with a slight slant (towards the wall) to keep them from sliding around. Having racks could also allow crew to better organize bags by destination.


----------



## NE933

Let's all please take a moment and ponder the odds against Viewliner II. The original plan in the 80's was for 300 -400 car fleet. Only 50 got built, and builder Morrison Knudson folded. Builders from Brazil had and elsewhere were scrounged to keep the railcars from stopping mid process. Many said another one will never be made again, and so it is with the power of will, passion for knowing the lifeblood of trains on freight and passengers, and the ambition to see a great project moribund for 20 years, got back into a respectful light. Congrats to CAF, their subcontractors, and all at Amtrak who worked to make this happen, and even more thanks for acknowledging the job will not be finished with these 130 railcars.


----------



## jis

NE933 said:


> Let's all please take a moment and ponder the odds against Viewliner II. The original plan in the 80's was for 300 -400 car fleet. Only 50 got built, and builder Morrison Knudson folded. Builders from Brazil had and elsewhere were scrounged to keep the railcars from stopping mid process.


Builders from Brazil? I thought eventually it was Alstom (French) that took over what was Amerail, which completed the Viewliner I order.


----------



## Fan Railer

jis said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's all please take a moment and ponder the odds against Viewliner II. The original plan in the 80's was for 300 -400 car fleet. Only 50 got built, and builder Morrison Knudson folded. Builders from Brazil had and elsewhere were scrounged to keep the railcars from stopping mid process.
> 
> 
> 
> Builders from Brazil? I thought eventually it was Alstom (French) that took over what was Amerail, which completed the Viewliner I order.
Click to expand...

You are forgetting that Alstom gets it's car bodies from a plant in Brazil.


----------



## VT Hokie

NE933 said:


> Let's all please take a moment and ponder the odds against Viewliner II. The original plan in the 80's was for 300 -400 car fleet. Only 50 got built, and builder Morrison Knudson folded. Builders from Brazil had and elsewhere were scrounged to keep the railcars from stopping mid process. Many said another one will never be made again, and so it is with the power of will, passion for knowing the lifeblood of trains on freight and passengers, and the ambition to see a great project moribund for 20 years, got back into a respectful light. Congrats to CAF, their subcontractors, and all at Amtrak who worked to make this happen, and even more thanks for acknowledging the job will not be finished with these 130 railcars.


Now let's take that positive momentum and get the Rohr Turboliners out of Bear!


----------



## dlagrua

I believe that the video tour of the Viewliner II cars is referenced in this post. http://youtu.be/fHAGdl5J0uw

The cars look very nice and thanks to the LED lighting, they have a new bright more open look .

It looks like we will be taking more trips on the Eastern routes when these arrive on the rails. The change of appearance and the fresh new interiors will be refreshing.


----------



## Woody

dlagrua said:


> ...
> 
> It looks like we will be taking more trips on the Eastern routes when these arrive on the rails. ...


Further evidence that the 130 new cars will surely not be enuff! We need that option order!


----------



## jis

Fan Railer said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's all please take a moment and ponder the odds against Viewliner II. The original plan in the 80's was for 300 -400 car fleet. Only 50 got built, and builder Morrison Knudson folded. Builders from Brazil had and elsewhere were scrounged to keep the railcars from stopping mid process.
> 
> 
> 
> Builders from Brazil? I thought eventually it was Alstom (French) that took over what was Amerail, which completed the Viewliner I order.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are forgetting that Alstom gets it's car bodies from a plant in Brazil.
Click to expand...

Did Alstom get any Viewliner bodies from Brazil, back then would be from Mafersa, since Alstom acquired them in 1997 or so? I don't know and would like to get a reference for that information for later use. I thought Mafersa delivered bodies for the CTA cars and Virginia Rail Express cars. Did not know about Viewliners. But nor was I keeping track of things closely back then. So any concrete info would be most appreciated.


----------



## Nathanael

NE933 said:


> Let's all please take a moment and ponder the odds against Viewliner II. The original plan in the 80's was for 300 -400 car fleet. Only 50 got built, and builder Morrison Knudson folded. Builders from Brazil had and elsewhere were scrounged to keep the railcars from stopping mid process. Many said another one will never be made again, and so it is with the power of will, passion for knowing the lifeblood of trains on freight and passengers, and the ambition to see a great project moribund for 20 years, got back into a respectful light. Congrats to CAF, their subcontractors, and all at Amtrak who worked to make this happen, and even more thanks for acknowledging the job will not be finished with these 130 railcars.


Yes. Congrats to everyone at Amtrak who bit the bullet and decided that scarce capital *needed* to be spent on this. And please spend some more to exercise part of the option. ;-) Until we get 220mph HSR in the east, there's going to be large and increasing demand for the eastern long distance trains -- the "single overnights" run through parts of the country denser than Western Europe. These trains will continue to be crucial to mobility east of the Mississippi.


----------



## dlagrua

Its no secret that Amtrak must battle Washington for every penny that its receives but what might prove to be a game changer is the ever increasing demand from rail travelers, the sharp decline in flying conditions and the degrading treatment of passengers by the TSA Quite frankly I won't stand for it. Last I heard they were shrinking the airline seat widths again to a paltry 17". That's even smaller than a bucket seat on a sports car. If it keeps going like this, why before you know it, you'll have to be a midget to fit into one of those seats.


----------



## jis

Seat width on most domestic flights on Boeings and Airbuses have been 17.2" for quite a while and that is not changing with the new seats. So might have misheard or misunderstood what was stated. What is chaniging is the depth of the backrest by one inch and that is being used to reduce the pitch so as to allow one or two more rows of seat.


----------



## Woody

jis said:


> Seat width on most domestic flights on Boeings and Airbuses have been 17.2" for quite a while and that is not changing with the new seats. So might have misheard or misunderstood what was stated. What is chaniging is the depth of the backrest by one inch and that is being used to reduce the pitch so as to allow one or two more rows of seat.


Reducing the pitch is a fine thing if you enjoy

having your knees tucked under your chin.

But if you are even medium tall, say 6 ft or so,

you will be scrunched on the plane. Yes, we

need more trains!


----------



## sitzplatz17

i believe dlagrua was referring to an article in the WSJ this week where Long-haul airlines like Emirates are looking to fit 10 seats (3-4-3 style) next to each other at 17" on the Boeing 777, which until now has always been (3-3-3 style).


----------



## jis

Of the American majors only American Airlines has done that in its new 7Ws.

Incidentally in the original configuration when 777s were first introduced, UA had 2-5-2 in the back but with 18" seats.

All domestic mainline planes in the US AFAICT are at least 17.2".

Many Asian airlines have gone to 10 abreast in 777s and that is a couple of years old news. Nothing new there.

I suppose the Gulf airlines did it since their main clientele is Asian and they seem not have that much problem with 17". Indeed, the Gulf Airlines uniformly get rave reviews from people who fly them regularly. This is something that has quite puzzled me over the last couple of years.

Interestingly the Gulf airlines also have couple inches more in pitch than the US majors do. That might explain why people like their layout even with 17" seats more than the layout with 31" pitch and 18" seats.

So my conclusion is that 17.2" vs. 17" is a non-issue if the pitch can be kept around 34". Pitch less than that is a problem.


----------



## afigg

Saw this link on rr.net. Amtrak posted photos and information on the Viewliner II production on its Amtrak history website: Welcoming the Next Generation: Viewliner II. Looks like the website was updated in October when the Vw IIs were shown to the press, but was overlooked. Several photos of the production line and a history of the Viewliner design. If you zoom in on the photo of the sleeper car, its number is 68000 for those who want to railfan on such stuff.

An excerpt from the write-up for dates and specs:



> After one of each type of car is field tested over the winter, the first units should enter revenue service in summer 2014. The full order is expected to be delivered by late 2015.
> 
> Each car measures approximately 85' long, 14' high and 10.5' across at the widest point. Capable of moving at speeds of up to 125 mph, the Viewliner II cars will be interoperable with the Viewliner I, Amfleet II (long-distance), Horizon and remaining Heritage cars, as well as all Amtrak electric and diesel road locomotives.
> 
> The Sleeping cars include 11 Roomettes, two Bedrooms and one Accessible Bedroom. Interior components, which are installed in a modular system, are being manufactured separately by RailPlan. Unlike the Viewliner I design, the Roomettes do not include toilets; passengers will share two restrooms and a shower at one end of the car.


Click on the images link at the bottom of the page for photos like this one of the interior of the baggage car with shelves.


----------



## abcnews

This was great to see - but does this mean no new Viewliner equipment until this summer? I was hopeful to see a few more (new) diners on the Lake Shore Limited.

Is it just the one (8400)?


----------



## Acela150

It appears that sleepers will run the 68000 series.


----------



## afigg

abcnews said:


> This was great to see - but does this mean no new Viewliner equipment until this summer? I was hopeful to see a few more (new) diners on the Lake Shore Limited.
> 
> Is it just the one (8400)?


That was the news that came out in late October when the Viewliner IIs were shown to the press. The first set of 4 cars of one of each type will be released for initial testing and review, maybe by the end of the year. Then more cars will be delivered for testing and training as the number of Vw IIs in Amtrak's hands is built. Start of revenue service for the first units is now projected for summer of 2014, hopefully that means before the end of June, in time for the summer peak months, not the end of August.


----------



## Acela150

An article in this months Railpace states that the first four Pilot cars will be Diners and baggage cars. Four total. Baggage and Diners will come first, and understablely so. With the Sleeping cars being the last type of car delivered.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

Seeing as how the baggages are also half sleeper then it should cover just about all the bases as well.


----------



## printman2000

ALC Rail Writer said:


> Seeing as how the baggages are also half sleeper then it should cover just about all the bases as well.


Not all of them. Some are full baggage. Which I assume is what they are talking about.


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

printman2000 said:


> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as how the baggages are also half sleeper then it should cover just about all the bases as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Not all of them. Some are full baggage. Which I assume is what they are talking about.
Click to expand...

Right I forgot about that, too bad. Those are going to be brilliant cars when they get them in service.


----------



## PerRock

ALC Rail Writer said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALC Rail Writer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing as how the baggages are also half sleeper then it should cover just about all the bases as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Not all of them. Some are full baggage. Which I assume is what they are talking about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right I forgot about that, too bad. Those are going to be brilliant cars when they get them in service.
Click to expand...

And I believe the Baggage Dorms (the ones that are 50/50) are non-revenue sleeping berths for crew.

oeter


----------



## ALC Rail Writer

PerRock said:


> And I believe the Baggage Dorms (the ones that are 50/50) are non-revenue sleeping berths for crew.
> 
> oeter


Yes, I'm aware of the concept. My point was if you were road testing the bag-dorms you'd also thus be road testing much of the items in the sleepers cocurrently.


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> An article in this months Railpace states that the first four Pilot cars will be Diners and baggage cars. Four total. Baggage and Diners will come first, and understablely so. With the Sleeping cars being the last type of car delivered.


For what it is worth, Amtrak's own website blog on the new Viewliners states "After one of each type of car is field tested over the winter, the first units should enter revenue service in summer 2014." Since there 4 types of cars, that indicates at least one of each type has been built. The main production order has been stated as the diner cars, then the baggage-dorms, then the sleepers while the 55 baggage cars are built throughout the production run.


----------



## Nathanael

There were previous statements that one of each type would be built, then a *second* of each type, and *then* the main production run. Something to do with iterative testing.

Anyway, this is my wild and uninformed speculation based on the assumption that there will be *two* test cars of each type, and that they'll be ready to use in revenue service before the main production is ready:

I think the first two diners should go on the LSL (to give all three sets Viewliner diners)

the first two baggage cars on 66/67 (to allow them to get up to full speed on the NEC),

the first two baggage-dorms on the Cardinal (to alleviate the crush on sleeper space and allow it to get up to full speed on the NEC),

and the first two sleepers on the Cardinal (only train where you can test the new "fewer roomettes" sleeper arrangement using only two cars, without confusing the reservations system).

Once the main deliveries start, I'm sure Amtrak will be trying to displace Heritage diners ASAP.

If I were Amtrak, I would try to put new baggage cars on trains running on the NEC first (to allow full-speed running). If so, some of those baggage cars would be displaced by bag-dorms later, and only then would the baggage cars start to migrate west.

Now we wait and see what actually happens.. It sounds like full-scale deployment will be mostly happening over the 2015 fiscal year, not the 2014 fiscal year, unfortunately.

2015 should be an interesting year for Amtrak... if any projects manage to stay on schedule (waaaay too many have slipped).


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An article in this months Railpace states that the first four Pilot cars will be Diners and baggage cars. Four total. Baggage and Diners will come first, and understablely so. With the Sleeping cars being the last type of car delivered.
> 
> 
> 
> For what it is worth, Amtrak's own website blog on the new Viewliners states "After one of each type of car is field tested over the winter, the first units should enter revenue service in summer 2014." Since there 4 types of cars, that indicates at least one of each type has been built. The main production order has been stated as the diner cars, then the baggage-dorms, then the sleepers while the 55 baggage cars are built throughout the production run.
Click to expand...

The guy who writes these articles has inside information at Amtrak. It's also very reliable.


----------



## edjbox

Anyone have any dates on when the first Viewliner IIs are going to be tested and introduced into revenue service?


----------



## Acela150

No.


----------



## Nathanael

FWIW, the last photo I saw of the CAF facility ( http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-assembly-line-2013 ) I tried to work out how many of each type of car I saw. (Use the "Download full size version" link if you want to play this game.)

I think those weird round ventilators (or whatever they are) have 4 on the baggage cars, 2 on the bag-dorms (on the baggage side), 1 smaller and off-center on the diners, and none on the sleepers. Based on this and the window/door layout, I think I'm looking at the following.

Right side, back to front: 2 bag-dorms, 1 sleeper, 2 baggage

Middle: 1 baggage

Left: 4 diners, 1 unknown

I can't conclude much from this, since some cars are obviously "off camera". What I can conclude is that CAF has already produced more shells than the "2 of each" which were to be used for testing; there are more than 2 diners and more than 2 full baggage cars there. So the production line is moving right along even before the first cars are tested.


----------



## Ryan

Hopefully the testing doesn't turn up any issues that would require rework on those cars.


----------



## 7deuceman

If you've not already seen this information, here are some things from the Jim Loomis Blog that you might like:

http://takeatrainride.blogspot.com/2013/06/an-advance-look-at-amtraks-new.html


----------



## jis

IMHO what we need now is for those cars to actually start rolling out and into service before they start getting a reputation for being "Factory Queens". 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpamtfan

It's safe to say we will see Diners and Baggage cars come out first, as that's a need to replace the Heritage cars. Then as those cars get in service, the sleepers will eventually start to be built and put into service in a formal fashion.


----------



## afigg

cpamtfan said:


> It's safe to say we will see Diners and Baggage cars come out first, as that's a need to replace the Heritage cars. Then as those cars get in service, the sleepers will eventually start to be built and put into service in a formal fashion.


The planned production was stated by Amtrak last fall. It will the diner cars, then the baggage-dorms, then the sleepers. The baggage cars will be built concurrently on a second production line. However, it has now been over 3 months since the October press event with no official updates since then. With the ACS-64s now entering revenue service, maybe there will be news on testing of the Viewliners II soon.


----------



## dlagrua

Still say that there is an argument for not removing the roomette toilets. I sure hope that those sinks are set high enough. I envision some unsavory individuals urinating in that sink? If people thought that the in-roomette toilets were unsanitary, wait until they see what some slobs can do to the sinks.


----------



## Bob Dylan

dlagrua said:


> Still say that there is an argument for not removing the roomette toilets. I sure hope that those sinks are set high enough. I envision some unsavory individuals urinating in that sink? If people thought that the in-roomette toilets were unsanitary, wait until they see what some slobs can do to the sinks.


This sounds like a Male Only Possibility!


----------



## Welcome_to_the_21stCentury

dlagrua said:


> Still say that there is an argument for not removing the roomette toilets. I sure hope that those sinks are set high enough. I envision some unsavory individuals urinating in that sink? If people thought that the in-roomette toilets were unsanitary, wait until they see what some slobs can do to the sinks.


Unfortunately, sanity isn't ever an argument that gets very far in Amtrak's board room. Mr. Hilton , Mr. Hyatt, and Mr. Marriott learned in the last century, overnight guests will always want their own private facilities, instead of sharing one down the hall.

Do the Viewliner II roomettes still have the (fold out) sink? I thought all the roomette plumbing was gone.


----------



## jis

Welcome_to_the_21stCentury said:


> Do the Viewliner II roomettes still have the (fold out) sink? I thought all the roomette plumbing was gone.


They still have the sink. And BTW in survey after survey the folks that travel in Sleepers expressed a preference for no commode in the roomettes. So it is hard to blame this one on Amtrak Management Mr. Hilton and Mr. Hyatt notwithstanding. Indeed many have openly said here and elsewhere that they refuse to travel in roomettes where they have to sleep next to their commode. So go figure. It might be a generational thing.


----------



## dlagrua

jis said:


> Welcome_to_the_21stCentury said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the Viewliner II roomettes still have the (fold out) sink? I thought all the roomette plumbing was gone.
> 
> 
> 
> They still have the sink. And BTW in survey after survey the folks that travel in Sleepers expressed a preference for no commode in the roomettes. So it is hard to blame this one on Amtrak Management Mr. Hilton and Mr. Hyatt notwithstanding. Indeed many have openly said here and elsewhere that they refuse to travel in roomettes where they have to sleep next to their commode. So go figure. It might be a generational thing.
Click to expand...

Heed my words; wait until the sink and the rug start smelling like urinals, then we will see how well passengers like the arrangement. IMO, the toilet with a sealed lid is the way to go.


----------



## Blackwolf

My $0.02 on this bizarre accusation that people *will *be using the sink as a commode is this:

Pee in the sink = forfeiture of your travel rights aboard Amtrak. No refund. Off the train at the earliest opportunity. Watch the markers fade away.

Really, though? The toilets should never have been put into the Viewliner roomettes in the first place. They are a long time overdue to be removed. And good riddance! If you want the use of your own private facility, book a Bedroom.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Blackwolf said:


> My $0.02 on this bizarre accusation that people *will *be using the sink as a commode is this:
> 
> Pee in the sink = forfeiture of your travel rights aboard Amtrak. No refund. Off the train at the earliest opportunity. Watch the markers fade away.


I would hope this doesn't become a problem. After all there is no commode in the Superliner Roomette and folks are good about making the trek to the restroom, although you do have a few more to chose from. Hopefully there won't be a long line in the Viewliner 2 :unsure:  :angry2: :giggle:


----------



## rickycourtney

dlagrua said:


> Still say that there is an argument for not removing the roomette toilets. I sure hope that those sinks are set high enough. I envision some unsavory individuals urinating in that sink? If people thought that the in-roomette toilets were unsanitary, wait until they see what some slobs can do to the sinks.


Having been inside a prototype Viewliner I can tell you... This won't be possible unless you have some awesome body contortion skills. Plus you'd be so uncomfortable... you'd rather just walk 20 steps to the real bathroom.


dlagrua said:


> Heed my words; wait until the sink and the rug start smelling like urinals, then we will see how well passengers like the arrangement. IMO, the toilet with a sealed lid is the way to go.


I disagree completely. Superliner roomettes have not had toilets for over 30 years and they don't smell like urinals.
Now can we get back to a real discussion... Not gross bathroom talk.


----------



## MattW

Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.


----------



## jis

MattW said:


> Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.


Huh? What on earth does toilet have to do with sink? :huh: Sorry I don't get it. :blink:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

MattW said:


> Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.


To make the limited bathrooms available to those who need to use a toilet by letting me wash up in my roomette, perhaps.


----------



## cpamtfan

Plumbing. And I hope people wash up after they do their business in the bathroom..IN the bathroom. I mean lets get real here, there are like 10 roomettes, so at MAX you will have 20 adults for two bathrooms. I doubt there will be 20 person lines except if one or two are out.


----------



## MattW

jis said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? What on earth does toilet have to do with sink? :huh: Sorry I don't get it. :blink:
Click to expand...

Well, from a technical standpoint, isn't there some common plumbing? Both need a water supply, both need a drain connection. Eliminate one and sure you've eliminated half the plumbing, but you still have the same maintenance issues, just not as many.

From a human standpoint, I can't think of anything a sink in your room can be used for, that the sink in the public bathroom can't. Maybe you could make the argument of people washing their hands headed to the diner without having to wait for the public bathroom, but it's thin, frankly. Then there's the potable water angle, but do these sinks even have a dispenser of potable water?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I, for one, wash my face each morning. That is the type of washing up I was referring too. Then there's brushing my teeth. Maybe do a sponge bath rather than take a shower. If you want to wait for me while I do all this in the public bathroom, fine.


----------



## dlagrua

AmtrakBlue said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.
> 
> 
> 
> To make the limited bathrooms available to those who need to use a toilet by letting me wash up in my roomette, perhaps.
Click to expand...

I sincerely hope that I am wrong, so that before you wash your face the sink, it will be clean. I just hope that there is always unabated bathroom access, but if the bathrooms go down, all bets are off! .


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Possible reasons there's been a go-slow on the Viewliner IIs.

=============================

Amtrak has been worrying about low working capital, and that concern peaks when winter weather depresses ridership and revenue.

Amtrak didn't want to do anything to provoke the crazies, like ordering more cars, until the new budget passed Congress.

Some crazies in Congress got so excited by the last government shut-down they want another. The need to raise the debt ceiling gives them another opportunity to create chaos. So Amtrak has to stash all its cash until that possible crisis is past.

The ACS-64s got delayed. Amtrak wanted to be sure that the new engines were going to be O.K. So their launch only came this week. Now with that behind them, the Viewliner IIs should be next up.

Amtrak wants to be absolutely sure it can pay for the new Viewliners before ordering more. Maybe the option deadline is tied to when Amtrak receives the first cars from CAF.

Amtrak considers the big order for new Acelas to be much more important than a bunch of LD cars. Offers are due from the equipment manufacturers in May, then the haggling will last all year. But if by the end of May, Amtrak has a good idea of how much the Acela order will cost, it will know what it can afford to spend $150 million or so on more Viewliners.

Amtrak wants to postpone the final payments to CAF until Fiscal 2015, and that's not really so very far away.

Amtrak wants a very large order for single-level coaches. It wants CAF to be able to bid for that work, but that won't be too soon.. But it needs the assembly lines at Elmira to be almost clear, before putting out that RFI or RFP.

CAF has made a mess of things.

===========================

I'm sure I've overlooked the best reason why we haven't see a Viewliner II in motion yet. But I'm starting to think we will not see them joining the fleet until Fiscal 2015.


----------



## afigg

MattW said:


> Well, from a technical standpoint, isn't there some common plumbing? Both need a water supply, both need a drain connection. Eliminate one and sure you've eliminated half the plumbing, but you still have the same maintenance issues, just not as many.
> 
> From a human standpoint, I can't think of anything a sink in your room can be used for, that the sink in the public bathroom can't. Maybe you could make the argument of people washing their hands headed to the diner without having to wait for the public bathroom, but it's thin, frankly. Then there's the potable water angle, but do these sinks even have a dispenser of potable water?


There is a big difference in the drainage plumbing for s toilet versus a sink. The sink can be serviced by a small water pipe and small drain pipe. A toilet has a larger drainage pipe and the real world problem of people flushing things down the on-board toilet that they should not. Having a small sink in the roomette to wash up, brushing teeth, or rinse something off is not unreasonable.


----------



## roomette

Electric Razor only. No Hairdryer.

Also


----------



## rickycourtney

afigg said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, from a technical standpoint, isn't there some common plumbing? Both need a water supply, both need a drain connection. Eliminate one and sure you've eliminated half the plumbing, but you still have the same maintenance issues, just not as many.
> 
> From a human standpoint, I can't think of anything a sink in your room can be used for, that the sink in the public bathroom can't. Maybe you could make the argument of people washing their hands headed to the diner without having to wait for the public bathroom, but it's thin, frankly. Then there's the potable water angle, but do these sinks even have a dispenser of potable water?
> 
> 
> 
> There is a big difference in the drainage plumbing for s toilet versus a sink. The sink can be serviced by a small water pipe and small drain pipe. A toilet has a larger drainage pipe and the real world problem of people flushing things down the on-board toilet that they should not. Having a small sink in the roomette to wash up, brushing teeth, or rinse something off is not unreasonable.
Click to expand...

Also, understand that the toilets used on Amtrak trains are MUCH more complex than the toilet you use at home.

Your toilet at home requires gravity, water and a sewer connection (just like the sink in the roomettes).

I'll spare you the disgusting details of why, but Amtrak's macerator toilets also require a power and compressed air.

Myself, I plan to use the sink in my roomette to wash my hands before going to eat, wash my face before bed and brush my teeth. I'll still continue to use the sink in the restroom to wash my hands after using the facilities. I hope you will too.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at risk of carrying this topic further than it needs, the Superliner roomettes also don't have sinks. Frankly, I'm puzzled by the sinks still being included. I thought part of the argument against the roomette toilets was the complex plumbing. While I'm sure it's slightly reduced by not having both a toilet and sink, I don't see the need for a sink without a toilet.
> 
> 
> 
> To make the limited bathrooms available to those who need to use a toilet by letting me wash up in my roomette, perhaps.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I sincerely hope that I am wrong, so that before you wash your face the sink, it will be clean. I just hope that there is always unabated bathroom access, but if the bathrooms go down, all bets are off! .
Click to expand...

Do you have personal experience with the sink being used as a toilet? You are certainly obsessed with the notion that it has been used for that.


----------



## Anderson

Ok, guys...the sink/toilet discussion is a bit gross. Could we _please_ change the topic?


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> Ok, guys...the sink/toilet discussion is a bit gross. Could we _please_ change the topic?


Only person who is truly into it seems to be dlagrua at this point  He keeps circling back to it no matter what we post.


----------



## Blackwolf

The sinks in ALL Amtrak trains don't go to any retention tank or sewage connection. They drain out beneath the car, right onto the tracks. Same for the shower drains.

Next time you are alongside an Amtrak train, be aware of any dripping/running water beneath one of the cars.

That said, I like that a sink remains but the heads are history. Its a non-issue IMHO, that you'll be making a short walk down the hall to the facilities. Much like, oh, any other lodging situation, even your own home.


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> Possible reasons there's been a go-slow on the Viewliner IIs.
> 
> ...
> 
> Amtrak wants to be absolutely sure it can pay for the new Viewliners before ordering more. Maybe the option deadline is tied to when Amtrak receives the first cars from CAF.
> 
> ...
> 
> Amtrak wants to postpone the final payments to CAF until Fiscal 2015, and that's not really so very far away.
> 
> ...
> 
> CAF has made a mess of things.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm sure I've overlooked the best reason why we haven't see a Viewliner II in motion yet. But I'm starting to think we will not see them joining the fleet until Fiscal 2015.


Remember a contract is a 2 way street. If CAF were building the cars on the original schedule, Amtrak would have to request CAF to delay production in order to delay progress payments. There are probably a number of reasons for the delays: CAF reportedly encountered difficulties in finding qualified workers to hire, design issues, manufacturing and training issues on the first units built, more recently CAF running into delays on the delivery and acceptance of equipment for Houston transit, and yes, maybe Amtrak asking CAF to slow production for a time while Amtrak managed the cash flow to get through the FY13 sequestration, govt shutdown, and waiting on a final FY14 budget. We will not know the reasons unless someone in Amtrak talks honestly about why the Vw IIs are not yet in testing on the NEC.
The final FY14 budget and latest Five year planning documents will probably be posted in the next few weeks. If there have been no announcements on or sightings of the Vw IIs before then, those documents should reveal the number of Vw IIs expected to enter revenue service by FY.


----------



## Nathanael

We know that there was a "stop work order" a while back which almost certainly delayed things by a year. This, from reading various "tea leaves" such as job advertisements and rumors, was probably due to a lack of expertise in stainless steel at CAF, which took a while to fix.

I don't know what is causing further delays, but after that incident I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak is watching CAF very very carefully to make sure that there are no further screwups. These cars may be the most meticulously inspected before delivery of any railcars in North America today.

I doubt that Amtrak is deliberately delaying production for cash flow management reasons -- the cost of maintaining the Heritage cars is already outrageous and increasing.

But delaying production to make sure everything is *exactly right* -- well, Amtrak isn't going to get a second shot at this order. We know of long-standing irritations in the Amfleets, in the Viewliners, in the Superliners, and in the Horizons. It makes sense for Amtrak to eliminate every potential little problem with extreme care and excessive testing. If a Viewliner II has its pipes freeze up (for example), or if the door latches get stuck on the first day, some people will be very embarrassed.

These cars are going to be Amtrak's proof to Congress that long-distance sleeper, diner, and baggage car service, at least on the Eastern routes, can be profitable. They have to be showpiece quality.

And if production is being delayed for other reasons, such as the Houston Metro order, Amtrak doesn't want CAF to do a "rush job" on Amtrak's cars, so Amtrak will say "fine, we'll accept the delay".

If the timing of the option deadline is tied to the delivery of the first cars, then this would give an advantage to Amtrak from delaying. It would be very worthwhile to exercise that option, but cash flow was really tight for a while there.

TL;DR: I don't think Amtrak is deliberately delaying production, but I think they don't want CAF to rush anything, so they're taking it as slow as it needs to be to get it right.


----------



## edjbox

I heard that a viewliner 2 was on train 66 the other day. Can anyone confirm?


----------



## Ryan

I didn't see it, but heard the same thing from someone on the Facebook.


----------



## Bob Dylan

edjbox said:


> I heard that a viewliner 2 was on train 66 the other day. Can anyone confirm?


If Amtrak is "Secretly" Testing ViewlinerIIs/Bag Cars on the NEC @ Night someone is bound to Spot them and it will show up on the Train Forums or U-Tube! Perhaps our Amtrak Insiders can "Secretly" let us know if his is True it would be Good News indeed if Testing is Starting,! Spring is on the way and Amtrak can sure use some Good News to go along with the Better Weather!!!


----------



## Acela150

Well you know the old saying... I heard it on the internet so it MUST be true....

This rumor got started by someone saying they saw a "Viewliner II" on 66.. When it was most likely a deadhead for 449.. So someone starting a rumor that is completely false.


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> Well you know the old saying... I heard it on the internet so it MUST be true....
> 
> This rumor got started by someone saying they saw a "Viewliner II" on 66.. When it was most likely a deadhead for 449.. So someone starting a rumor that is completely false.


The report on railroad.net is that someone on facebook posted that they saw 4 to 5 Viewliners on a train in Binghamton NY. Which is at least plausible if the first set of Viewliners are being moved to an Amtrak facility on the NEC for inspection and testing. It would be very unlikely that a new Viewliner would be on a revenue train. But these are unsubstantiated reports. I would expect a press release and dog & pony show shortly after the test set of Viewliners are delivered.


----------



## ACS-64

Acela150 said:


> Well you know the old saying... I heard it on the internet so it MUST be true....
> 
> This rumor got started by someone saying they saw a "Viewliner II" on 66.. When it was most likely a deadhead for 449.. So someone starting a rumor that is completely false.


Bingo that was just the "Tranquil View" deadheading to Boston.


----------



## jis

Speaking of Viewliner - prototype Viewliner 2301, which in 2001 became 62091 "Eastern View", has now reappeared as a track inspection car name "American View" with number 10004. This information appeared in the April 2014 issue of Railpace (sans the name allocation info) reported by the like of Marc Maglieri from Amtrak.

Those of you who keep track of such things will recall that the name "American View" was originally allocated to the first production Viewliner I 62000. But of course all production Viewliners have sort of lost their names, and apparently this name has now been commandeered for the newly released inspection car built out of a prototype Viewliner Sleeper.

Of course this has got all the uninformed masses who are convinced that LD trains will cease to exist, that one of the production Viewliners has been withdrawn to make it this car. Which actually is not true. But some are going on and on about it in the usual way.


----------



## trainman74

"American *View*" is an appropriate name for an inspection car!


----------



## edjbox

When will they start testing them?


----------



## Acela150

This new car is a theatre style car. It looks great!


----------



## NE933

It seems there is sentiment share by some that yes the Viewliner Theater looks nice, but is it a form of corporate extravagance by Joe Boardman that we and Amtrak can not afford. And it leaves a bad taste in alot of people mouth that this was one of the three prototypes, and as such, should be used right here and now as a _*prototype *_for cafe lounges and coaches that Amtrak has to start buying., instead of a car with a glass wall -- that already exists in Beech Grove and Corridor Clipper.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Oh please, the original Viewliners cars were rusting away. This is a good reuse of something that would otherwise have been scrapped. Amtrak can design new coaches and lounges from scratch.


----------



## afigg

NE933 said:


> It seems there is sentiment share by some that yes the Viewliner Theater looks nice, but is it a form of corporate extravagance by Joe Boardman that we and Amtrak can not afford. And it leaves a bad taste in alot of people mouth that this was one of the three prototypes, and as such, should be used right here and now as a _*prototype *_for cafe lounges and coaches that Amtrak has to start buying., instead of a car with a glass wall -- that already exists in Beech Grove and Corridor Clipper.


The Viewliner prototype that was converted to the 10004 American View is not a company office car. It is a track and ROW inspection car with a large window on the back with theater style seating inside so people can inspect the ROW. It reportedly also has track geometry and sensor equipment on-board. Saw the photos on railroad.net and it looks nice, but it is fresh out of the shops. But how is a system maintenance car a form of corporate extravagance?

Maybe it will be on public display at WAS or PHL on National Train Day so people can check it out.


----------



## afigg

edjbox said:


> When will they start testing them?


If you are inquiring about the first set of Viewliner IIs, Amtrak has not issued any updates on their status in a while.


----------



## NE933

afigg said:


> It reportedly also has track geometry and sensor equipment on-board.
> 
> But how is a system maintenance car a form of corporate extravagance?


In this case it isn't. It's sad when passengers' knowledge of the railroad are more transparent that the management. Thanks.


----------



## Just_call_me_ol_Rusty

MikefromCrete said:


> Oh please, the original Viewliners cars were rusting away.


Bad stainless steel?


----------



## Ryan

Figure of speech, Mr. Literal.


----------



## jis

NE933 said:


> It's sad when passengers' knowledge of the railroad are more transparent that the management. Thanks.


In case you are suggesting that the passengers know more than the management about what a car is used for, how do you figure that to be the case? Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## PRR 60

In my experience, "inspection cars" are not solely or even primarily for maintenance purposes. A much simpler, less elaborate car could be used for that purpose. You don't need theater seating, kitchens and dining areas to perform track inspection. In Amtrak's case, you don't need to inspect BNSF or UP track either. "Inspection cars" are executive perks and are often used to wine and dine internal and external VIP's. Every railroad has them.


----------



## afigg

Amtrak has posted a FY2014 Budget, FY15 Budget Request Justification, and FY14-FY18 Five year Financial Plan all combined into one rather lengthy omnibus document. I'm still trying to parse through the thing, but it contains updated info on the Viewliner IIs. The expected fleet availability table has 25 Viewliner IIs in the fleet by the end of FY2014.

In the fleet activities, it states:



> It is anticipated that the first units will be delivered to Amtrak for testing in the second quarter of FY 2014. The first car is anticipated to enter revenue service in the fourth quarter of 2014 with the final unit entering revenue service by March 2016. The total project cost will be $342.8 million. Payment for acquisition of these cars and related spare parts is being funded by annual Federal capital appropriation.


Well, the second quarter of FY2014 is over, so the cars are a bit late. Maybe they meant 2nd quarter of CY 2014?


----------



## battalion51

PRR 60 said:


> In my experience, "inspection cars" are not solely or even primarily for maintenance purposes. A much simpler, less elaborate car could be used for that purpose. You don't need theater seating, kitchens and dining areas to perform track inspection. In Amtrak's case, you don't need to inspect BNSF or UP track either. "Inspection cars" are executive perks and are often used to wine and dine internal and external VIP's. Every railroad has them.


Don't forget though that Amtrak does have a bunch of big clients that they'll need to wine and dine at some point, the states and the federal government. Look no further than the notice that the State of Indiana posted looking for alternative operators for the Hoosier State. Or how about taking some Congressmen on a tour of the NEC and showing them the successes and opportunities that exist to upgrade the corridor. The only other car that could potentially serve that purpose is the Great Dome, but the Great Dome can't run on the NEC, and it's geared more for scenery purposes, not for looking at the physical plant.


----------



## MrFSS

battalion51 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, "inspection cars" are not solely or even primarily for maintenance purposes. A much simpler, less elaborate car could be used for that purpose. You don't need theater seating, kitchens and dining areas to perform track inspection. In Amtrak's case, you don't need to inspect BNSF or UP track either. "Inspection cars" are executive perks and are often used to wine and dine internal and external VIP's. Every railroad has them.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget though that Amtrak does have a bunch of big clients that they'll need to wine and dine at some point, the states and the federal government. Look no further than the notice that the State of Indiana posted looking for alternative operators for the Hoosier State. Or how about taking some Congressmen on a tour of the NEC and showing them the successes and opportunities that exist to upgrade the corridor. The only other car that could potentially serve that purpose is the Great Dome, but the Great Dome can't run on the NEC, and it's geared more for scenery purposes, not for looking at the physical plant.
Click to expand...

I wonder what happens to important VIP type people who have an aversion to riding backwards? Some folks really have a hard time with it. I know my wife does. We have had to wait to be seated and allow others to go before us in the diner so she can face forward. I guess that car has seats facing the right way, too, but they won't see much out the rear window!


----------



## AG1

MrFSS said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, "inspection cars" are not solely or even primarily for maintenance purposes. A much simpler, less elaborate car could be used for that purpose. You don't need theater seating, kitchens and dining areas to perform track inspection. In Amtrak's case, you don't need to inspect BNSF or UP track either. "Inspection cars" are executive perks and are often used to wine and dine internal and external VIP's. Every railroad has them.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget though that Amtrak does have a bunch of big clients that they'll need to wine and dine at some point, the states and the federal government. Look no further than the notice that the State of Indiana posted looking for alternative operators for the Hoosier State. Or how about taking some Congressmen on a tour of the NEC and showing them the successes and opportunities that exist to upgrade the corridor. The only other car that could potentially serve that purpose is the Great Dome, but the Great Dome can't run on the NEC, and it's geared more for scenery purposes, not for looking at the physical plant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wonder what happens to important VIP type people who have an aversion to riding backwards? Some folks really have a hard time with it. I know my wife does. We have had to wait to be seated and allow others to go before us in the diner so she can face forward. I guess that car has seats facing the right way, too, but they won't see much out the rear window!
Click to expand...

Actually I have found that looking out the back at receding objects doesn't have the same queasy effect on the brain as having objects sweeping past the side windows. I don't like riding backwards either, but have had no problem looking out the rear door window for an extended time. I think it is the relative speed of the visual motion


----------



## Ryan

I've noticed the same thing, I'm not a fan of riding backwards looking out the side, but I can stand at the rail fan window all day long without issues.


----------



## SarahZ

Whereas I get extremely nauseated looking out the railfan window but don't have quite the same level of nausea if I'm sitting in my roomette. I don't like it, but at least it doesn't make me sick.

I can't even watch more than 10-15 seconds of YouTube videos taken from the railfan window.


----------



## rrdude

Shhhhhh! If Amtrak gets wind that the "Rail Fan Window" is popular, they may raise the price, or limit the time one can view from said window.


----------



## Big Iron

rrdude said:


> Shhhhhh! If Amtrak gets wind that the "Rail Fan Window" is popular, they may raise the price, or limit the time one can view from said window.


They would have to clean it first


----------



## battalion51

If the Silvers/Crescent stay in "Winter Configuration" permanently there won't be a railfan window problem anymore.


----------



## edjbox

What's a "winter configuration" and why do they use it?


----------



## MattW

It's when the sleepers and baggage car are put on the rear of the train rather than their normal leading position (well, behind the locomotives). It's so the equipment can be swapped with the equipment of the Lakeshore Limited. Unlike every other eastern LD single level train, the Lakeshore Limited during winter stays "frozen" since it runs between New York and Chicago, so its consist is periodically swapped with that of the silvers or Crescent so it can come south and "thaw out." Due to track arrangements and the locomotive swap at Albany, the Lake Shore Limited's New York section is on the rear of the train. To avoid odd turning movements, the Eastern LD trains all run in this configuration for ease of swapping them out. I have no idea how the Boston section "thaws" out. I guess they either deadhead to New York then reshuffle or reshuffle the consist in Chicago. I'm sure the experts here can better clarify these operations!


----------



## Steve4031

I've often wondered about the Boston section too. Maybe the equipment is shuffled in Chicago.


----------



## jis

Bits and pieces of the Boston section are often conveyed to/from Washington by 66/67 too.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Bits and pieces of the Boston section are often conveyed to/from Washington by 66/67 too.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


You mean #448/#449 derail and/or become involved in accidents so the bits and pieces have to be hauled to 60 Mass? LOL


----------



## jis

You mean your phone derailed? 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Cina

SarahZ said:


> Whereas I get extremely nauseated looking out the railfan window but don't have quite the same level of nausea if I'm sitting in my roomette. I don't like it, but at least it doesn't make me sick.
> 
> I can't even watch more than 10-15 seconds of YouTube videos taken from the railfan window.


I've never seen this illustrious window, but I do remember being the only one in the family who didn't think the rear-facing seats in our station wagon were a treat.


----------



## NE933

So we have lots of postings for this inspection Viewliner, but still little to nothing on the 130 sleeper/baggage/diner/dorm order.


----------



## Jimmy

Not to reopen the potty talk about only sinks in rooms, but anyone who's ever worked for the railroad and stayed away from home terminal in a railroad 'clubhouse' will tell you that in such accommodations, the sink DID become a urinal. Just sayin, it will probably happen with these cars too. History has a pretty good record of repeating itself.


----------



## rrdude

Jimmy said:


> Not to reopen the potty talk about only sinks in rooms, but anyone who's ever worked for the railroad and stayed away from home terminal in a railroad 'clubhouse' will tell you that in such accommodations, the sink DID become a urinal. Just sayin, it will probably happen with these cars too. History has a pretty good record of repeating itself.


While I have pissed in my share of sinks in my life, they were always in a crummy location, (nasty gas station or sleazy locale) or it was because the toilet was broken. I'd think the height n location in the roomette wud be a damn good DIS-incentive to use as a urinal. There, I said it.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Dude, don't be so pissy.


----------



## NE933

I routinely hit the shower drain, as it saves time and reduces wear and tear on the latrine. But always before i rinse myself, so that the soap and shampoo washes off me and cleans the drain, leaving them with a nice scent!!


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

No one wants to lay their head next to a toilet taking them out is the best decision Amtrak has made since graham Claytor was running the place.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I like having my toilet conveniently in my room. Don't make assumptions for other people.


----------



## cirdan

Big Iron said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shhhhhh! If Amtrak gets wind that the "Rail Fan Window" is popular, they may raise the price, or limit the time one can view from said window.
> 
> 
> 
> They would have to clean it first
Click to expand...

aha, but you pay extra for that.


----------



## PRR 60

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> No one wants to lay their head next to a toilet taking them out is the best decision Amtrak has made since graham Claytor was running the place.


For a single person in a Viewliner Roomette, there is no reason to lay your head next to the toilet to sleep. Use the upper bunk. It allows you to sit until your ready to call it a night, then climb into the upper bunk. With the upper window, it is a great place for a single traveler to sleep. In the morning, you climb down and push the upper bunk up and out of the way. Two in the room is another story, but with an open toilet, I personally would not travel with two in a Viewliner roomette. My choice.

The roomette toilets are not being installed in the Viewliner II's for one reason - cost. About 10 fewer toilets to install, attach to the retention tank, and maintain. Keeping the sinks does surprise me. That is a lot of plumbing to install and maintain (including heat-trace for freeze prevention - a chronic Amtrak failure).


----------



## Ryan

Even with 2 in the room, your feet go next to the toilet.

Opinions are obviously divided - for single travelers, they're great. For doubles, less so (but like you, I'm going in a bedroom most of the time if there are two of us).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Wish I had your money, Ryan.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I can see the sink being useful in that I could wash up in my roomette and not "hog" the shared bathroom.


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> Wish I had your money, Ryan.


If Ryan is like the_traveler he probably has a special arrangement with his mortgage bank to pay using the AGR Mastercard, so he can use the points to get his bedroom.


----------



## afigg

Jimmy said:


> Not to reopen the potty talk about only sinks in rooms, but anyone who's ever worked for the railroad and stayed away from home terminal in a railroad 'clubhouse' will tell you that in such accommodations, the sink DID become a urinal. Just sayin, it will probably happen with these cars too. History has a pretty good record of repeating itself.


This thread is really going into the toilet. 

If the above becomes a problem, then go for a technology solution. Install a urine detector in the sink drain and sound a loud obnoxious buzzer when the detector is triggered. If that doesn't solve the problem, add a electric shock connection to the sink. With a warning label of course. A guy would only use the sink that way only once.


----------



## jis

To be really obnoxious, it could make a public announcement which goes something like "The sink is being used as a urinal in Roomette 4". That could be remarkably embarrassing for the occupant of roomette 4, specially if the announcement is in error.  It also would probably have a preventive value unless the occupant of roomette 4 is in dire need of attention, as some appear to be.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> _To be really obnoxious, it could make a public announcement which goes something like "The sink is being used as a urinal in Roomette 4". That could be remarkably embarrassing for the occupant of roomette 4, specially if the announcement is in error.  It also would probably have a preventive value unless the occupant of roomette 4 is in dire need of attention, as some appear to be.  _


I can see kids sneaking into empty roomettes just to do that...


----------



## PaulM

Green Maned Lion said:


> I like having my toilet conveniently in my room. Don't make assumptions for other people.


He's only following the internet discussion style book. Saying something like "I prefer ...." is not politically correct. At least he didn't (mis)use the word "insane".


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wish I had your money, Ryan.
> 
> 
> 
> If Ryan is like the_traveler he probably has a special arrangement with his mortgage bank to pay using the AGR Mastercard, so he can use the points to get his bedroom.
Click to expand...

I can only aspire to those levels of greatness.
My sleeping car travel is almost exclusively funded by points, though.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

PRR 60 said:


> The roomette toilets are not being installed in the Viewliner II's for one reason - cost.


Yep.

More evidence, and a new meaning, for the idea that Boardman has become completely fixated with the _bottom_ line. :blush:


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Thats it. I am hiring you for writing the humor for a revival of Rocky and Bullwinkle.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

Green Maned Lion said:


> Thats it. I am hiring you for writing the humor for a revival of Rocky and Bullwinkle.


Thanks. I've enjoyed watching R & B for over 50 years. One of the things I've always liked about the humor and word play on the show is that there is often a grain or two of insight in it. Oh to be Al Momattah of Wossamotta U.!


----------



## blueman271

Are there any updates on when the Viewliner II's will roll off the assembly line and begin testing?


----------



## Allypet

blueman271 said:


> Are there any updates on when the Viewliner II's will roll off the assembly line and begin testing?


How dare you try and bring this thread back on topic! Shame on you!


----------



## jis

Here's some news on the Viewliner IIs from a post at trainorders:



> Amtrak Special enroute from ALB to Elmira Heights, NY to pick up at least one baggage from CAF. Will return to ALB later in week. Train consist is GP40 two amfleet cars and a P42.


----------



## Acela150

Seriously?? One car??!! What a joke!


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> Seriously?? One car??!! What a joke!


Have to start somewhere. Perhaps they need to do basic test runs on one car before releasing a full set for more comprehensive testing. If one Viewliner II baggage car shows up in Albany, it may be the most sought after baggage car for foamer photos ever.


----------



## Steve4031

Well it's a start.


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously?? One car??!! What a joke!
> 
> 
> 
> Have to start somewhere. Perhaps they need to do basic test runs on one car before releasing a full set for more comprehensive testing. If one Viewliner II baggage car shows up in Albany, it may be the most sought after baggage car for foamer photos ever.
Click to expand...

Sure basic test runs are needed. But I think it would be much better to have something that requires a decent draw of HEP such as Diner or Sleeper. I'd even take a Bag/Dorm. Think about it. Passengers don't ride in the bag car.


----------



## jis

Why would HEP draw affect ride stability? Remember, these cars have not had a long ride test yet. That is what one would test first. Not how HEP is doing. A derailed bag car would be as bad as a derailed passenger car if it drags a few adjacent cars down with it, something that is wont to happen at speed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Keep in mind that the bag cars and heritage diners are older than most people now alive so there is a pressing need to get them tested and into service first even though there is a great need for sleepers also and we rail fans of course can't wait to ride in a Virwliner II! (8400. The prototype Viewliner Diner is in service and is very nice!)


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Why would HEP draw affect ride stability? Remember, these cars have not had a long ride test yet. That is what one would test first. Not how HEP is doing. A derailed bag car would be as bad as a derailed passenger car if it drags a few adjacent cars down with it, something that is wont to happen at speed.


True. Part of the issue with the delays is where the 480V cables run through the car. I can agree that ride stability is big, matter of fact it's probably the main thing to worry about.


----------



## neroden

Well, if it's true it's good news. The old baggage cars can't be replaced fast enough.

I'm guessing the suspension of the baggage cars needs to be tested separately from the suspension of the other cars, based on some stuff I've read about the design being a bit different to allow for heavier loads. Heck, they might even test an unbalanced baggage car by loading it up all on one side; I know I would.


----------



## Steve4031

The baggage cars and Diners are the priority. I don't recall the order of delivery, but I could see them focusing on baggage cars and Diners. I personally experienced a trip on the LSL where the diner was swapped out at the last minute and replaced by a diner lite amfleet car. The crew did a heroic job on that trip. I've read on AU of two or three more such occurrences. I am sure there are many more. I had one trip on the CS delayed in Seattle because of a bad ordered baggage car. We waited for 7 to arrive and they switched that baggage car off of 7 and put it on the CS.

Of course it would be nice to have baggage and diners for the winter of 2014 and 2015 but I know I am dreaming on when I think of that.


----------



## battalion51

I know I've seen photos/reports of several trains here on the east coast where a coach or cafe has been substituted to run as a baggage car because the baggage car wasn't roadworthy after the inbound trip and there were no spares. Forward progress is good, getting even one car out on shake down runs is a huge step forward.


----------



## MattW

Unless I'm mistaken, and admittedly the definitive answer is probably somewhere in this thread, the non-baggage cars have to go to Beech Grove to get their modules installed while the baggage cars are nearly ready to run, except for the bag-dorms I don't remember the straight baggage cars having modules.


----------



## Acela150

CAF is installing the modulars for the cars. They are completely re-designed. Toilets have been eliminated from the Roomettes. Public restrooms will replace them. And IINM Hialeah would install the mods. That is where ALL view liners are worked on from small to major repairs.

If one thinks about it why would Amtrak pay for cars to be built without compartments. They don't have enough compartments for 25 Sleepers and 25 Bag Dorms lying around.


----------



## MattW

So the modules go to CAF and get installed at the factory?


----------



## afigg

Steve4031 said:


> The baggage cars and Diners are the priority. I don't recall the order of delivery, but I could see them focusing on baggage cars and Diners.


The planned production order that was stated last fall was that first batch would be 2 cars of each type, then one production line would build diners, baggage-dorms, then sleepers in that order while the baggage cars would be built concurrently on a second production line. The production plans may have been changed, don't know, because CAF is also way behind on delivering light rail cars to Houston. CAF appears to have underestimated the time it would take to build out the production facility and the challenges in hiring a skilled workforce in the Elmira region.

Several recent articles on the problems in delivering light rail cars to Houston:

Houston Chronicle (March 6, 2014): Revised schedule has final Metro trains arriving in January.

KTRK-TV (May 7, 2014): Spanish company's delay on rail cars may affect METRO services.

The KTRK article from last week is far more pessimistic than the March article in regards to the delivery situation for Houston. [Follow-up comment: on further re-reading of the KTRK article, I suspect that it was written by someone who does not have much knowledge or understanding of the situation and even where the CAF are being built.]

CAF may be having to make a choice on whether to build Viewliner IIs for Amtrak versus LRT cars for Houston. That decision may depend on who has the more severe penalty clauses in the contract.


----------



## Acela150

MattW said:


> So the modules go to CAF and get installed at the factory?


Amtrak doesn't have the modules... CAF is building them and installing them in Elmira. Pictures of the Mods can be found in the first pages of this topic. IINM Amtrak will also be replacing the Mods in the current view liners with the mods that are being put in the new view liners. So extra mods will be built for the 50 VL I's and put in by Hialeah. I'm not sure if that is still the plan. Someone like Jis or Alan might know better then me on that.


----------



## neroden

The modules are being built by RailPlan.

http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html

RailPlan can presumably deliver them to Elmira, Beech Grove, Hialeah, or anywhere else, as requested. In this matter, I am sure Amtrak and CAF will agree to do whatever is fastest.


----------



## rickycourtney

Acela150 said:


> Amtrak doesn't have the modules... CAF is building them and installing them in Elmira. Pictures of the Mods can be found in the first pages of this topic. IINM Amtrak will also be replacing the Mods in the current view liners with the mods that are being put in the new view liners. So extra mods will be built for the 50 VL I's and put in by Hialeah. I'm not sure if that is still the plan. Someone like Jis or Alan might know better then me on that.


The modules aren't built by CAF but rather by Railplan, a company that specializes in railcar interiors.

To my knowledge the plans is still to replace the modules in the Viewliner I cars. Not sure what the timeline is...

but it can't happen until all the Viewliner II sleepers are delivered (and they are slated to be the last cars off the assembly line.)

Also to quell any concerns here... a picture on Trainorders shows *at least* 8 Viewliner II carbodies out in the yard in Elmira... that doesn't include the cars inside the plant or elsewhere in the yard so *yes* CAF is making some progress on the Viewliner II order.


----------



## Acela150

It's funny I started to look back in the topic for the pictures of the mods and realized that rail plan was building them and not CAF.


----------



## Steve4031

Afigg, thank you for the detailed response. It will be interesting to see where this first batch of cars go after testing.


----------



## prech786

jis said:


> Here's some news on the Viewliner IIs from a post at trainorders:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Special enroute from ALB to Elmira Heights, NY to pick up at least one baggage from CAF. Will return to ALB later in week. Train consist is GP40 two amfleet cars and a P42.
Click to expand...

Here's the Amtrak special on the way to CAF to pick up new Viewliners;




Here's new VL Baggage Cars ready to go:


----------



## Ryan

Nice! Looks like quite a lot of cars piled up.

Is that some idiot standing in the middle of the tracks with a train coming?


----------



## neroden

Steve4031 said:


> The baggage cars and Diners are the priority. I don't recall the order of delivery, but I could see them focusing on baggage cars and Diners. I personally experienced a trip on the LSL where the diner was swapped out at the last minute and replaced by a diner lite amfleet car. The crew did a heroic job on that trip. I've read on AU of two or three more such occurrences. I am sure there are many more. I had one trip on the CS delayed in Seattle because of a bad ordered baggage car. We waited for 7 to arrive and they switched that baggage car off of 7 and put it on the CS.


And surely we remember the dining car whose wheels stopped rotating on the Silver Star?
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/55890-silver-star-stuck-for-more-than-12-hours/

The Heritage cars are starting to have *unusual* problems. That's a sign that they're *way* too old to keep operating.



> Of course it would be nice to have baggage and diners for the winter of 2014 and 2015 but I know I am dreaming on when I think of that.


We ought to have had them last winter; it's not unreasonable to expect them this winter.


----------



## CHamilton

More on the special train, posted on the Amtrak group on Facebook.



> MAY 12TH 2014 : An Amtrak " Special Move " came down the former D&H from Rensselaer, NY to Binghamton where it turned and went west on the ex~ ERIE . The train, consisting of # 520 & P42 # 203 and Amcafe # 43358 , was headed for the CAF factory in Elmira Heights, NY where it will pick up (20 ) NEW Baggage and Sleeping cars. The train is scheduled to return to the State capitol region on Friday May 16TH 2014


----------



## Ryan

20(!!!)

That's going to be an AWESOME looking train.


----------



## afigg

RyanS said:


> Nice! Looks like quite a lot of cars piled up.
> 
> Is that some idiot standing in the middle of the tracks with a train coming?


Those may be flagmen for the train move.

It is nice to finally see a new photo of the equipment showing that CAF has completed the frame and put trucks on a number of units. The question is how much has the schedule stated last October slipped?

This is shaping up to be a big week for Amtrak. First Viewliner II delivery for testing. More ACS-64 units reportedly entering service real soon. Big transportation and infrastructure funding push on the Hill this week. If the RFP schedule has not slipped, the bids on the HSR trainsets are due at the end of this week.


----------



## Ryan

Looking more closely, it looks like they may be wearing hardhats and vests.

It also looks like both the headlights and marker lights are on on the 520.


----------



## NE933

The deadhead seems to be P42 #203 and an Amfleet car, and possibly one other locomotive. Sorry if this was posted hereas i don't remember where I saw it, am too happily excited. This is the real, Happy Train Day!


----------



## hastybob

They are supposed to leave Elmira Friday morning with one baggage car only!


----------



## fulham

Is it 1 baggage car or 20 cars?

How accurate is the quote from the "Amtrak Group on Facebook"?


----------



## CHamilton

fulham said:


> Is it 1 baggage car or 20 cars?
> 
> How accurate is the quote from the "Amtrak Group on Facebook"?


It's an exact quote (typos and all), but I have no idea how good the poster's information is.


----------



## Ryan

The post I saw on Amtrak's Facebook page by Rich Martin said 10-20 cars. Cited Amtrak sources he "spoke with at Elmira this morning."


----------



## jis

This is what Rich Martin said:



> I have yet to ask the crew just what types of cars are being picked up. there are a few obvious ones but then there are many out on some sidetracks here at Elmira Heights


----------



## PerRock

NE933 said:


> The deadhead seems to be P42 #203 and an Amfleet car, and possibly one other locomotive. Sorry if this was posted hereas i don't remember where I saw it, am too happily excited. This is the real, Happy Train Day!


Look 4 posts up (from your post) for the other locomotive.

peter


----------



## afigg

Found this recent investigative summary report (1 paragraph) on the Amtrak Inspector General website on the Viewliner II. Possibly caused by a disgruntled employee of CAF? Did the investigation slow down the production and engineering process in any way?



> *PRODUCTION OF LONG DISTANCE SINGLE LEVEL RAIL CARS
> MAY 7, 2014
> CASE OIG-I-2014-506*
> 
> We received an allegation of numerous improprieties regarding the contracting of 25 sleeper cars, 25 diner cars, 25 baggage/dorm cars and 55 baggage cars totaling $298,132,648. Of the 11 improprieties alleged, we did not find any substantial information or evidence indicating potential fraud or other criminal violations. Amtrak management addressed and resolved potential contract or production irregularities. We recommended to management that they continue to monitor the progress to address the initial use of non-conforming parts in the production process; check the welding credentials of welders who worked on the prototype cars and welders on the rail cars when full production begins in 2014; and to monitor the contractor’s compliance with the Buy America Act.


The AIG documents include an announcement on April 4 of an audit being initiated of the CAF contract and production. If the audit report is as informative as the one on the food service losses on the LD trains, could provide reliable information on why the production and delivery schedule has slipped so much.


----------



## neroden

The AIG documents bring up those stainless-steel-welding issues again. (This is the third piece of evidence I've seen that issues with getting welders qualified to work with stainless steel delayed production.) That is almost certainly the main source of delays. It's really vital to get this right, of course.

We'll see how many cars go to Albany on Friday. I would think Amtrak would not bother to run two locomotives just to pick up a solo car (expensive), so I'm expecting several at once, but who knows.


----------



## battalion51

Well they may have had to run two engines up there if there is no facility to wye the engine at. Heck, even when they go to pick up an ACS-64 they run two engines to go get it. Granted an ACS-64 is much heavier...


----------



## neroden

battalion51 said:


> Well they may have had to run two engines up there if there is no facility to wye the engine at. Heck, even when they go to pick up an ACS-64 they run two engines to go get it. Granted an ACS-64 is much heavier...


My point is, unless there was some compelling reason, they'd wait until they could pick up several at once, as it would cost the same amount to move. An ACS-64 is much heavier, so that isn't so true there.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> My point is, unless there was some compelling reason, they'd wait until they could pick up several at once, as it would cost the same amount to move. An ACS-64 is much heavier, so that isn't so true there.


What we do not know is how much basic testing for speed, stability, and braking remains to be done on the first car or several Viewliner II cars. Don't want to take a string of Viewliner II cars over 60 mph and have the entire set derail when it encounters than smooth tracks because they had not done test runs on the first unit. Amtrak probably sent 2 locomotives because they don't have a cab car to spare.


----------



## Acela150

What good is a cab car going to do pulling 10-20 cars?? Zero! Early in the topic Jis stated a car or two will head to TTCI for testing and a small handful will head to PHL for Corridor testing.


----------



## jis

Where did I say anything about number of cars or where they will go? Frankly I have no information on that matter beyond what has been posted on Facebook.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PRR 60

Right now, they might be happy with just one car that has good welds throughout. Getting qualified welders is a problem in that area. The natural gas drilling operations in the Marcellus gas fields are right there and they pay qualified welders huge hourly's with lots of overtime. Good welders are being gobbled up by the drillers. That leaves conventional fabricators like CAF with a problem. They can't get good welders at the rates they can pay, and the fixed-cost contracts prevent paying the driller-driven market rate. The outcome is bad welds detected by nondestructive testing methods that have to be ground-out and redone - sometimes over and over. I've been through this exact issue with the products I used to buy, and if you are procuring a welded product from a company that has trouble getting good welders, it ain't pretty.

Here's a tip for a high school grad who wants to have a lucrative occupation and a great lifestyle and doesn't mind moving around. Forget college. Become a welder. A good welder can become rich.


----------



## neroden

The drilling operations are actually across the border in Pennsylvania (thank goodness fracking is still banned in New York, so we still have uncontaminated water supplies). But your point is correct, it's the same job market.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> I think the first car will go to Pueblo CO for FRA/AAR tests and the second car will go to Philly to start testing on the NEC. The rest will go to Hialeah, their maintenance base, to be rotated into service. Don't see any reason for it to go to Bear DE. But then again, of course, I could be wrong too.





jis said:


> Where did I say anything about number of cars or where they will go? Frankly I have no information on that matter beyond what has been posted on Facebook.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


First post on page 2. I don't blame you on forgetting as that was 2 years ago.


----------



## jis

Touché! It still is complete speculation and not a factual statement, as indicated by the "I think" lead in. Still don't know what will actually happen based on any reliable source.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## jonmorrie

Viewliner maintenance is in Hialeah? Does that mean we could see one deadheaded on Silver Service soon?


----------



## Ryan

Yes and maybe.


----------



## oldtimer

Ryan, that is a definite maybe.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

If it does deadhead south, I could attempt to catch it. After all I did see 8400 deadhead down here, before it went into service.


----------



## Palmetto

From another board, crews are on duty tomorrow [Friday] 7:00 AM at Elmira and 10:00 AM at Binghamton for the Viewliner II move. Happy photographing


----------



## Allypet

I will be in Albany tomorrow. If someone can give me a possible location where they might end up, I will go take some photos.


----------



## afigg

Palmetto said:


> From another board, crews are on duty tomorrow [Friday] 7:00 AM at Elmira and 10:00 AM at Binghamton for the Viewliner II move. Happy photographing


I hope they do make the move tomorrow so we can get an answer to the burning all important question: how many Viewliner IIs are being moved initially for testing.


----------



## edjbox

Hope they move more than one Viewliner out of the factory, but they should probably test them one at a time first at speed


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Touché! It still is complete speculation and not a factual statement, as indicated by the "I think" lead in. Still don't know what will actually happen based on any reliable source.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


While it is speculation, I'll tend to believe it as when 8400 was testing on the NEC it was tested out of PHL for a while.


----------



## PRR 60

afigg said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> From another board, crews are on duty tomorrow [Friday] 7:00 AM at Elmira and 10:00 AM at Binghamton for the Viewliner II move. Happy photographing
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they do make the move tomorrow so we can get an answer to the burning all important question: how many Viewliner IIs are being moved initially for testing.
Click to expand...

And the answer is .... one car.

Photos at Trainorders.


----------



## Steve4031

Looks like a baggage car.


----------



## PRR 60

Steve4031 said:


> Looks like a baggage car.


Yep. And, can I say those vents on the roof look ugly. Wasn't there some other way to vent other than those four things that look like attic vents bought from Home Depot?


----------



## NE933

So do we know if and when one of them will go to Hialeah? I am vacationing in Florida and would love to see the first new Viewliner in over twenty years.


----------



## neroden

There has to be a cheaper way of moving one car, rather than having two engines, an Amfleet (I'm guessing this is to satisfy the twelve-axle rule present on a number of railroads), Amtrak crews, and freight crews.

I guess one of two things is possible:

(1) Only one car is ready. (Ouch. Geez. Hope not.)

(2) The equipment move itself is actually a form of testing, and if it goes well future cars can be brought in as freight shipments along the same route with much less overhead. (Hope this is it.)


----------



## edjbox

any more pics beside the ones on trainorders.com???


----------



## printman2000

Video...


----------



## The Journalist

Interesting mixture of paint schemes on that train. I like the Amtrak America/Phase IIIb(?) scheme a lot, though.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> There has to be a cheaper way of moving one car, rather than having two engines, an Amfleet (I'm guessing this is to satisfy the twelve-axle rule present on a number of railroads), Amtrak crews, and freight crews.
> 
> I guess one of two things is possible:
> 
> (1) Only one car is ready. (Ouch. Geez. Hope not.)
> 
> (2) The equipment move itself is actually a form of testing, and if it goes well future cars can be brought in as freight shipments along the same route with much less overhead. (Hope this is it.)


The Amfleet I cafe car may be along so the crew picking up the Viewliner have a place to sit and work. Amtrak apparently still has a surplus of Am I cafe cars.

This is the first delivery, so moving just one baggage car for testing both the delivery procedure and the car for speed & stability test is understandable. The question is how long will it be before the next car or cars are moved from Elmira? Next week? Several weeks? Longer? We will have to wait and find out.

Meanwhile, the new baggage car will be one intensely photographed and videoed new baggage car.


----------



## mfastx

Why is the new car in an older paint scheme? Did I miss something?


----------



## neroden

Amtrak is slowly planning to repaint (well, actually, "re-vinyl") the equipment for the so-called "long distance" services into this new paint scheme, as part of an "Amtrak America" branding scheme for the so-called "long distance" services.

It isn't actually Phase III paint, though it's sort of similar -- call it IIIb. This was announced some time back.


----------



## MikefromCrete

That's the way the cars previewed a few months ago were painted. Who knows why? Maybe somebody high in Amtrak's command likes the old paint scheme.


----------



## MattW

neroden said:


> Amtrak is slowly planning to repaint (well, actually, "re-vinyl") the equipment for the so-called "long distance" services into this new paint scheme, as part of an "Amtrak America" branding scheme for the so-called "long distance" services.
> 
> It isn't actually Phase III paint, though it's sort of similar -- call it IIIb. This was announced some time back.


I thought that it was later reported that the Phase III scheme would be temporary?


----------



## neroden

I didn't see that. Do you have a citation?

They use vinyl wraps for everything now, so it's become much simpler to change "paint" schemes.


----------



## PerRock

MattW said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak is slowly planning to repaint (well, actually, "re-vinyl") the equipment for the so-called "long distance" services into this new paint scheme, as part of an "Amtrak America" branding scheme for the so-called "long distance" services.
> 
> It isn't actually Phase III paint, though it's sort of similar -- call it IIIb. This was announced some time back.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that it was later reported that the Phase III scheme would be temporary?
Click to expand...

I haven't heard anything official one way or another. One would think if they were re-branding Long-Dist we would have seen more existing cars being put into this scheme. Also the question has to be asked, why didn't Indianapolis get the IIIb scheme? I'm leaning towards believing that the new Viewliners are getting this scheme as a temporary "hey look we got new cars" paint scheme, but who knows at this point.

peter


----------



## Big Iron

I like the red springs in the trucks.


----------



## PerRock

this picture just showed up in my FB feed:

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3841216

peter


----------



## Guest

The cars look awesome but idk why but these cars look more like Acela cars than Viewliner I.


----------



## cpamtfan

The Amfleet I cafe is there so the train can run at MAS. Light engine moves have a speed restriction.


----------



## neroden

PerRock said:


> Also the question has to be asked, why didn't Indianapolis get the IIIb scheme?


Done well before the announcement.


> I'm leaning towards believing that the new Viewliners are getting this scheme as a temporary "hey look we got new cars" paint scheme, but who knows at this point.


Could be something to that... on the other hand, we've also heard that Amtrak is planning to send the Viewliner Is through the shop after the Viewliner IIs have arrived. They might show up in the new paint scheme after that.


----------



## Palmetto

cpamtfan said:


> The Amfleet I cafe is there so the train can run at MAS. Light engine moves have a speed restriction.


This suprises me in that MAS between Elmira and Albany/Rens is high enough to justify the Amfleet car. I'm assuming that this move terminates at Rens.


----------



## MattW

Palmetto said:


> cpamtfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Amfleet I cafe is there so the train can run at MAS. Light engine moves have a speed restriction.
> 
> 
> 
> This suprises me in that MAS between Elmira and Albany/Rens is high enough to justify the Amfleet car. I'm assuming that this move terminates at Rens.
Click to expand...

I read elsewhere that the speed would be 50mph in some places. With light engines they could probably only go 30, though each railroad has their own speeds for light engine moves.


----------



## NE933

So, any word on the Viewliner II baggage car - what's it doing, any more releases plannened in the next few days, etc?


----------



## neroden

Nope, no word. I presume it is undergoing top-secret testing in Albany. ;-)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Maybe they're getting hobo approvals. h34r:


----------



## NE933

Lol!! Thanks for making me smile! Oh, that is too funny. I wouldn't mind playing the hobo!!


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Nope, no word. I presume it is undergoing top-secret testing in Albany. ;-)


IIRC, the report on rr.net was that the baggage car was going to spend much of the week in Albany before getting moved south. May be doing a detailed inspection and check there before running it at higher speeds down to Delaware or Philly, where ever the next layover stop will be.


----------



## Acela150

One would guess that testing will be based out of Philly for a time. As High speeds can be attained between the curves at Frankford junction and Holmes at 100mph and Holmes and Morris the speeds head up to 125mph and then again from Trenton to New Brunswick on the racetrack at 125mph. Southbound one has to head to the Newark area for 125mph speeds. That trackage IIRC isn't that far, but I can't remember and don't have an Employee Timetable in front of me.


----------



## NE933

Leaving Newark going south, once clear of the S-curve at Elizabeth, it cranks up towards 125mph, thogh briefly, going through Linden and Rahway before slowing to 90-ish for Metro Park.


----------



## Acela150

Keep in mind that the 125 mph section between Elmora and Union interlockings is only a few miles. IINM enough to hit 125 and brake for the curves through Metropark and up to Metuchen.


----------



## edjbox

Which type of Viewliner II (baggage, baggage dorm, diner, sleeper) will go on which long distance routes???? Any guesses??


----------



## Trogdor

Baggage will go on almost all of them, including non-single-level. Diners will go on all the single-level trains that currently have heritage diners. Bag-dorms will go on all the single-level LD trains. The only real question is which trains will run with a baggage AND bag-dorm.


----------



## jis

I bet the Lake Shore Limited will run with Baggage and Bag-Dorm.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## afigg

Trogdor said:


> Baggage will go on almost all of them, including non-single-level. Diners will go on all the single-level trains that currently have heritage diners. Bag-dorms will go on all the single-level LD trains. The only real question is which trains will run with a baggage AND bag-dorm.


The baggage cars will go on the western and eastern trains that have Heritage baggage cars, except for the overnight single level eastern LD trains that will get baggage-dorm cars. "almost all of them" is rather sweeping; few corridor trains have baggage cars. We may see several additional Regionals and someday the Adirondack (after the Customs facility in Montreal opens) get baggage cars.

Except possibly for peak high demand travel periods, I doubt that any of the LD trains that have a baggage-dorm car will also have a full baggage car except for the LSL. And that is only because the LSL splits to NYP and BOS with the BOS section needing a baggage car.

The only real guesses for the distribution of the Viewliner IIs is how and where Amtrak will distribute the additional sleepers. The 25 bag-dorms, baggage and diner cars are to replace Heritage equipment including Heritage cars that were retired years ago and provide a modest equipment buffer.


----------



## MattW

Would the LSL get a Bag-Doorm and Baggage, or two bag-dorms? I guess I'm really asking what the Boston crew does, do they take rooms in the New York Sleeper once the train is joined, or do they take rooms in the Boston sleeper?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

lets see one Baggage car got released from CAF, and everyone is speculating and counting their chickens , Jeezz guys wait till more cars are released and tested, before we speculate on what train might somehow, if god is willing and creek don't flow over get a new.......


----------



## Ryan

Uh, that speculation has been happening since the order was announced.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> Uh, that speculation has been happening since the order was announced.


And even before then!


----------



## edjbox

The big question is for the Silver Service/Lake Shore Limited/Crescent/Cardinal trains as well as for train 66/67, Carolinian and Palmetto is which new type of baggage car will they use? How much baggage/express is shipped? If they switch to a baggage/dorm combination, there would be less room for baggage, and I was surprised to see that there was a lot of baggage/express on train 66 this past Wednesday being loaded at Washington.


----------



## Acela150

Carolinian and Palmetto will get full length Baggage Cars.. Why would they need a Bag Dorm? Those trains are day runs. The Card will benefit from a Bag dorm.


----------



## edjbox

The Palmetto is planned to be extended to Miami via the FEC in the future. If the same schedule is used, they only need 1 Viewliner sleeper, 1 diner-lounge currently being used on the Cardinal (the Cardinal would get a regular dining car as the new Palmetto would primarily be a daytime train with only nighttime service in both directions in FL) and one regular baggage.

What do these baggage dorms look like? How much cargo space would be reduced by the addition of rooms?


----------



## Eric S

edjbox said:


> The Palmetto is planned to be extended to Miami via the FEC in the future. If the same schedule is used, they only need 1 Viewliner sleeper, 1 diner-lounge currently being used on the Cardinal (the Cardinal would get a regular dining car as the new Palmetto would primarily be a daytime train with only nighttime service in both directions in FL) and one regular baggage.
> 
> What do these baggage dorms look like? How much cargo space would be reduced by the addition of rooms?


Planned?

Or just rumored?


----------



## Acela150

edjbox said:


> The Palmetto is planned to be extended to Miami via the FEC in the future. If the same schedule is used, they only need 1 Viewliner sleeper, 1 diner-lounge currently being used on the Cardinal (the Cardinal would get a regular dining car as the new Palmetto would primarily be a daytime train with only nighttime service in both directions in FL) and one regular baggage.
> 
> What do these baggage dorms look like? How much cargo space would be reduced by the addition of rooms?


I don't know where you're hearing that.. But that AFAIK is not the case.



Eric S said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Palmetto is planned to be extended to Miami via the FEC in the future. If the same schedule is used, they only need 1 Viewliner sleeper, 1 diner-lounge currently being used on the Cardinal (the Cardinal would get a regular dining car as the new Palmetto would primarily be a daytime train with only nighttime service in both directions in FL) and one regular baggage.
> 
> What do these baggage dorms look like? How much cargo space would be reduced by the addition of rooms?
> 
> 
> 
> Planned?
> 
> Or just rumored?
Click to expand...

A long term rumor that has been around since the termination of the Silver Palm.


----------



## Eric S

Right, I've heard of the rumor or speculation, but never anything definitive (like "planned" suggests).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Nothing new is planned for Amtrak LD service anywhere in the system at present. I am presently waiting for 180s on the Sunset and Cardinal, frankly.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Last I heard, they were going to split trains at Jacksonville. The split trains will head to Miami via the FEC line. Now I didn't hear Palmetto specifically, but I think the Silvers are the obvious candidates for that.


----------



## afigg

THE CJ said:


> Last I heard, they were going to split trains at Jacksonville. The split trains will head to Miami via the FEC line. Now I didn't hear Palmetto specifically, but I think the Silvers are the obvious candidates for that.


The proposal in the 2011 PIP report was to split the Silver Star at Jacksonville with the split section running on the FEC to Miami. With FL funding the construction of the cross-over track for commuter service, the physical connection for Amtrak to run on the FEC will be in place in a few years. But any such split will depend on All Aboard Florida or FL extending a corridor service to JAX and the AAF & FEC arrangement allowing Amtrak to run an LD train over the FEC. If a split Silver service does eventually happen, it will be long after the Viewliner IIs are delivered. Even with all the delays in the Viewliner II production.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

afigg said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last I heard, they were going to split trains at Jacksonville. The split trains will head to Miami via the FEC line. Now I didn't hear Palmetto specifically, but I think the Silvers are the obvious candidates for that.
> 
> 
> 
> The proposal in the 2011 PIP report was to split the Silver Star at Jacksonville with the split section running on the FEC to Miami. With FL funding the construction of the cross-over track for commuter service, the physical connection for Amtrak to run on the FEC will be in place in a few years. But any such split will depend on All Aboard Florida or FL extending a corridor service to JAX and the AAF & FEC arrangement allowing Amtrak to run an LD train over the FEC. If a split Silver service does eventually happen, it will be long after the Viewliner IIs are delivered. Even with all the delays in the Viewliner II production.
Click to expand...

Thanks.


----------



## edjbox

So what's the point of having baggage-dorms?

I know that this means more room for passengers in the regular sleeping cars but does that mean that passengers can buy a berth in a baggage-dorm or will they be reserved for crewmembers only?

Also this means that there will be less room for baggage for that train?


----------



## Acela150

Crew only.


----------



## neroden

Actually, Amtrak will definitely sell any spare roomettes in the baggage-dorm; this was made clear in the fleet plan.

There aren't expected to be many spare roomettes, however. Maybe as many as 3 on the Cardinal. More like zero or 1 on other trains.

On the LSL, there may be enough staff that staff members will still occupy roomettes in a full sleeper after filling up the dorm.


----------



## hastybob

The 61000 is in New York now. It went down on 234 this morning early.


----------



## edjbox

question is if some existing heritage baggage cars are replaced with baggage-dorms, that means Amtrak will have less room for baggage; will this work?


----------



## bgiaquin

Maybe they will keep a small # of heritage baggages just in case. It certainly would be wise to anyway.


----------



## Ryan

No, they're not going to keep any Heratige bags. They're falling apart.

They're also getting new full-baggage cars.

Trains that need them will get them.

Trains that need the dorm space will get bag-dorms. If the limited baggage space is a problem for that train, they can always add a full bag (or another bag-dorm and sell the extra rooms).

It's not rocket surgery.


----------



## MrFSS

RyanS said:


> No, they're not going to keep any Heratige bags. They're falling apart.
> 
> They're also getting new full-baggage cars.
> 
> Trains that need them will get them.
> 
> Trains that need the dorm space will get bag-dorms. If the limited baggage space is a problem for that train, they can always add a full bag (or another bag-dorm and sell the extra rooms).
> 
> It's not rocket surgery.


If I understand the new bag car layouts, they will have shelves that allow bags to be loaded in now unused vertical space as opposed to what they have now with almost all of the bags being on the floor. At least the ones I have seen inside are that way. Do any of the old ones have any shelving/racks inside?


----------



## Ryan

Not to my knowledge, I've never seen any.

That's a good point, you may be able to put as much stuff into a bag-dorm as you can a heritage bag because of the better space utilization.


----------



## jis

edjbox said:


> question is if some existing heritage baggage cars are replaced with baggage-dorms, that means Amtrak will have less room for baggage; will this work?


I am sure that the thought has occurred to the planners at Amtrak and they figure that with the shelving in the new baggage space they do have enough capacity. Afterall if they don't know what capacity they need, it is highly unlikely that any armchair planner on AU knows either.


----------



## hastybob

In the past, there have been some baggage dorm cars that had shelves. The ones I remember were the ex Army Hospital cars. Rarely were the shelves used, though. No one wants to lift another heavy bag up to a shelf. So, I expect that the shelves will be taken out eventually. We will see.


----------



## ACS-64

hastybob said:


> The 61000 is in New York now. It went down on 234 this morning early.


Look for it heading down to PHL around sunset.


----------



## jis

hastybob said:


> In the past, there have been some baggage dorm cars that had shelves. The ones I remember were the ex Army Hospital cars. Rarely were the shelves used, though. No one wants to lift another heavy bag up to a shelf. So, I expect that the shelves will be taken out eventually. We will see.


In other words folks who are supposed to use them will sabotage the attempt to save on cost of additional cars. That is sad and gives one pause on whether things should be funded at all. And yet passengers are expected to lift their bags onto the baggage racks above their head. Sorry no sympathy for that sort of attitude. Those who cannot lift bags onto a waist level shelf should find alternative employment IMHO.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

edjbox said:


> question is if some existing heritage baggage cars are replaced with baggage-dorms, that means Amtrak will have less room for baggage . . . ?


I'm pretty sure that the new baggage cars and bag dorms are longer than the Heritage cars. Enuff so that capacity will be at least equal and possibly expand. Pretty sure this point has been chewed over in other threads by people much smarter than me and put my mind at ease about it.

But c'mon. The presumption that Amtrak is sooooooh stupid they didn't correctly figure out the space needed for baggage . . . and you are the first to notice? Really?

And you presume that folks on this board would not have recognized such a problem long long ago?

If you want to expand your knowledge base, try reading some threads from the beginning of time, or at least since the beginning of the Stimulus spending, when stuff really started happening. But even reading a few pages back would often help.

I myself just found this gem on another blog while doing a quick (and abandoned LOL) search for the relevant bag car lengths:

Re: Viewliner baggage cars

by *Jersey_Mike* » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:51 am

. . .Someone explained that the Viewliner II baggage cars are going to be of a flexible design that will allow later conversion to other use types as money becomes available. Therefore if current funds are limited and outfitting cars as dorms costs too much money, it is best for Amtrak to get the cars on the property then convert them later.


Wonder if Jersey Mike subsequently retracted this. If not, it makes me feel much, much better about the Viewliner II order.


----------



## MDRailfan

This might be been addressed before so please excuse me but will the new roomettes upper berth still drop from the ceiling like the current ones and with no toilet, how do you get to the upper berth?


----------



## jis

WoodyinNYC said:


> Someone explained that the Viewliner II baggage cars are going to be of a flexible design that will allow later conversion to other use types as money becomes available. Therefore if current funds are limited and outfitting cars as dorms costs too much money, it is best for Amtrak to get the cars on the property then convert them later.
> 
> Wonder if Jersey Mike subsequently retracted this. If not, it makes me feel much, much better about the Viewliner II order.


It is of course true that they are standard Viewliner shells and therefore can be converted to whatever later for an appropriate cost. But there is no evidence that the current order will not be delivered with the car types as planned. So don't expect some cars to be delivered essentially as empty shells to be converted later.
As for length of baggage cars, many of the heritage baggage cars are converted from standard 85' Coaches, so they are exactly the same length as the new Viewliner baggage cars. There are some that are shorter cars, but not all of them are the shorter variety. For details get a copy of David Warners _Amtrak by the Numbers_.



MDRailfan said:


> This might be been addressed before so please excuse me but will the new roomettes upper berth still drop from the ceiling like the current ones and with no toilet, how do you get to the upper berth?


Yes. The toilet is replaced by a step


----------



## MDRailfan

jis said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone explained that the Viewliner II baggage cars are going to be of a flexible design that will allow later conversion to other use types as money becomes available. Therefore if current funds are limited and outfitting cars as dorms costs too much money, it is best for Amtrak to get the cars on the property then convert them later.
> 
> Wonder if Jersey Mike subsequently retracted this. If not, it makes me feel much, much better about the Viewliner II order.
> 
> 
> 
> It is of course true that they are standard Viewliner shells and therefore can be converted to whatever later for an appropriate cost. But there is no evidence that the current order will not be delivered with the car types as planned. So don't expect some cars to be delivered essentially as empty shells to be converted later.
> As for length of baggage cars, many of the heritage baggage cars are converted from standard 85' Coaches, so they are exactly the same length as the new Viewliner baggage cars. There are some that are shorter cars, but not all of them are the shorter variety. For details get a copy of David Warners _Amtrak by the Numbers_.
> 
> 
> 
> MDRailfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This might be been addressed before so please excuse me but will the new roomettes upper berth still drop from the ceiling like the current ones and with no toilet, how do you get to the upper berth?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. The toilet is replaced by a step
Click to expand...

Thanks. Had another..Will there still be a shower in addition to the toilet room or combined


----------



## jis

There will be a separate common use shower room, and two restrooms in each car. Of course the bedrooms will continue to have their own private shower and toilet facilities.


----------



## battalion51

The bag-dorms will be ideally suited for trains like the Cardinal and the LSL. If you put the Bag-Dorm on the New York section and a full bag car on the Boston section you can work out of the full bag car CHI-ALB and transfer the NYP bound bags at ALB (vice versa going west). The coach TA and LSA who go on to Boston won't have their rooms from ALB-BOS, but they should be at their post anyway. On the Cardinal you have a low volume of bags since there are only four revenue cars on the train, and a low number of stops with check bag service. On other trains like Silver Service and the Crescent you will likely see a full bag car with the bag-dorm. It's possible during low season they may take the full bag car off, but when you've got eight plus revenue cars on the trains during holiday rush periods and summer season you'll need the space.


----------



## Acela150

Anyone know if #61000 made it to PHL yet?? I'll try to stop by and get some photos if it has.


----------



## Anderson

I do have to ask, since the question came up in the California equipment thread: How long is the option good for?


----------



## NE933

Just passed by Philly Race St. yard; the new Viewliner 2 baggage is there, coupled to an Amfleet cafe in Northeast Regional scheme.


----------



## HAL

jis said:


> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the past, there have been some baggage dorm cars that had shelves. The ones I remember were the ex Army Hospital cars. Rarely were the shelves used, though. No one wants to lift another heavy bag up to a shelf. So, I expect that the shelves will be taken out eventually. We will see.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words folks who are supposed to use them will sabotage the attempt to save on cost of additional cars. That is sad and gives one pause on whether things should be funded at all. And yet passengers are expected to lift their bags onto the baggage racks above their head. Sorry no sympathy for that sort of attitude. Those who cannot lift bags onto a waist level shelf should find alternative employment IMHO.
Click to expand...

Your post is sad. You are assuming something that has not happened is going to happen.

As far as anyone not being able to lift bags finding alternative employement your not so humble opinion won't happen so it is not contstructive.

However the new bag car is designed inside it has to be designed to be worked safely without injury to employees. If in practice there have to be modifications--- so be it. Modifications are not unusual. Sometimes modifications are needed that the designers did not anticipate or the designers made a mistake. The ACS - 64 are an example. I have not yet seen the inside of the new bag cars yet so I won't make a prejudgement.


----------



## Steve4031

I think there is a requirement that the employees working the baggage car be able to lift a certain amount of weight. There are also restrictions on weight for checked luggage. Additionally, railroad workers undergo safety training encouraging them to lift using certain techniques. So IMHO there should be no problems with the new cars. They wouldn't be designed with such a basic safety flaw.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Steve4031 said:


> I think there is a requirement that the employees working the baggage car be able to lift a certain amount of weight. There are also restrictions on weight for checked luggage. Additionally, railroad workers undergo safety training encouraging them to lift using certain techniques. So IMHO there should be no problems with the new cars. They wouldn't be designed with such a basic safety flaw.


Airlines have strict weight limits and like to charge more for overweight bags. But the limits are lower and more strict in London, those damn Socialists, as an element of their OSHA type laws. So never mind an extra charge, they won't handle overweight bags at Heathrow. Thinking about it that way, and about some poor sap ripping his back, I'm OK with a 50-pound limit per bag. And the upper shelf on the Viewliner II bag cars can be well used for lighter bags that would be called "carry-on" size on the planes.


----------



## jis

HAL said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the past, there have been some baggage dorm cars that had shelves. The ones I remember were the ex Army Hospital cars. Rarely were the shelves used, though. No one wants to lift another heavy bag up to a shelf. So, I expect that the shelves will be taken out eventually. We will see.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words folks who are supposed to use them will sabotage the attempt to save on cost of additional cars. That is sad and gives one pause on whether things should be funded at all. And yet passengers are expected to lift their bags onto the baggage racks above their head. Sorry no sympathy for that sort of attitude. Those who cannot lift bags onto a waist level shelf should find alternative employment IMHO.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your post is sad. You are assuming something that has not happened is going to happen.
Click to expand...

Please note that I was merely responding to an assumption made in the post that I was responding to. So your assumption about me assuming something by myself is not really accurate. So I conclude that your sorrow about my post is based on your misunderstanding of the situation.
I am quite certain that the design of the baggage car takes into consideration all the relevant OSHA issues and they will be workable within the constraints laid down in OSHA.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Redacted


I didn't know you worked for the CIA Jis..


----------



## jis

What are you talking about?


----------



## Ryan

If you don't want to put heavy bags on shelves, you shouldn't take a job that requires doing that.

That ought not be a very controversial statement.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> If you don't want to put heavy bags on shelves, you shouldn't take a job that requires doing that.
> 
> That ought not be a very controversial statement.


Controversial or not it's true..


----------



## HAL

RyanS said:


> If you don't want to put heavy bags on shelves, you shouldn't take a job that requires doing that.
> 
> That ought not be a very controversial statement.


Whose job requires putting heavy bags on shelves onboard trains? None that I can think of offhand who works onboard were hired to do that. If you think you know who was hired to do such please enlighten.....


----------



## Ryan

Baggage handling is part of a conductor's job description, no?


----------



## HAL

RyanS said:


> Baggage handling is part of a conductor's job description, no?


Not lifting heavy bags on to shelves. There have never been shelves. You can't just add something and say that is "baggage handling".


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> Baggage handling is part of a conductor's job description, no?


http://jobs.amtrak.com/job/Washington-On-Corridor-Passenger-Conductor-Trainee-90106795-Washington-DC-20002/59663600/

Ryan on the old Job site for Amtrak it stated the Candidate must be able to lift 50 lbs.

I would imagine that bigger stations such as NYP, PHL, WAS, CHI, LAX, and SEA have their own personal to load and unload with Conductors opening the Baggage Door.



HAL said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Baggage handling is part of a conductor's job description, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Not lifting heavy bags on to shelves. There have never been shelves. You can't just add something and say that is "baggage handling".
Click to expand...

While I can agree with you to a point. If a conductor(s) is required to assist with Baggage Handling at certain stations then lifting onto and off of shelves will become a part of the deal.


----------



## HAL

Acela150 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Baggage handling is part of a conductor's job description, no?
> 
> 
> 
> http://jobs.amtrak.com/job/Washington-On-Corridor-Passenger-Conductor-Trainee-90106795-Washington-DC-20002/59663600/
> 
> Ryan on the old Job site for Amtrak it stated the Candidate must be able to lift 50 lbs.
> 
> I would imagine that bigger stations such as NYP, PHL, WAS, CHI, LAX, and SEA have their own personal to load and unload with Conductors opening the Baggage Door.
> 
> 
> 
> HAL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Baggage handling is part of a conductor's job description, no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not lifting heavy bags on to shelves. There have never been shelves. You can't just add something and say that is "baggage handling".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I can agree with you to a point. If a conductor(s) is required to assist with Baggage Handling at certain stations then lifting onto and off of shelves will become a part of the deal.
Click to expand...

I found a picture of the interior and conclude this has been much ado about nothing. The shelves appear to be low enough not to require lifting above the head as someone implied. Baggage is already piled to that height. Also the shelves fold out from the side so they would not have to be used. There would not even be an issue of removing them if they were not used since they fold out of the way. But I think they will be used. I foresee a possible problem though having them all folded out on both sides at the same time. They might only work efficiently with sections folded out on one side at a time.


----------



## Ryan

DO you mind sharing the picture?

If you can do the job without using the shelves, that's great.

But the statement that your employer was going to have to modify the cars because nobody wants to use them is ridiculous.


----------



## HAL

RyanS said:


> DO you mind sharing the picture?
> 
> If you can do the job without using the shelves, that's great.
> 
> But the statement that your employer was going to have to modify the cars because nobody wants to use them is ridiculous.


My initial reaction was based on people posting that using them would be sabatoged because they require lifting. I thought they had actually seen them. There was an intimation that there would be lifting over head height. That turns out not to be true. I don't see that they would require lifting or much more than already happens. As far as posting the image, it appears I don't know how to post it. I can't get it to paste.

Everything that Amtrak has bought has required modifications. No doubt these will require some. Now having actually seen the interior I have a different concern about the shelves. I am skeptical about Amtrak maintaining them. They have moving parts and baggage cars have had low priority. If the shelves are not maintained properly they might have to be removed in the future for that reason. Everything that Amtrak has bought has required modifications. No doubt these will require some. Now having actually seen the interior I have a different concern about the shelves. I am skeptical about Amtrak maintaining them. They have moving parts and baggage cars have had low priority. If the shelves are not maintained properly they might have to be removed in the future for that reason.


----------



## HAL

HAL said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> DO you mind sharing the picture?
> 
> If you can do the job without using the shelves, that's great.
> 
> But the statement that your employer was going to have to modify the cars because nobody wants to use them is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> My initial reaction was based on people posting that using them would be sabatoged because they require lifting. I thought they had actually seen them. There was an intimation that there would be lifting over head height. That turns out not to be true. I don't see that they would require lifting or much more than already happens. As far as posting the image, it appears I don't know how to post it. I can't get it to paste.
> 
> Everything that Amtrak has bought has required modifications. No doubt these will require some. Now having actually seen the interior I have a different concern about the shelves. I am skeptical about Amtrak maintaining them. They have moving parts and baggage cars have had low priority. If the shelves are not maintained properly they might have to be removed in the future for that reason. Everything that Amtrak has bought has required modifications. No doubt these will require some. Now having actually seen the interior I have a different concern about the shelves. I am skeptical about Amtrak maintaining them. They have moving parts and baggage cars have had low priority. If the shelves are not maintained properly they might have to be removed in the future for that reason.
Click to expand...

Here is a link to a picture.

http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> I do have to ask, since the question came up in the California equipment thread: How long is the option good for?


This information has never been made public as far as I know. (I've been watching everything Amtrak's published about this since the initial announcement.)


----------



## jis

HAL said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> DO you mind sharing the picture?
> 
> If you can do the job without using the shelves, that's great.
> 
> But the statement that your employer was going to have to modify the cars because nobody wants to use them is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> My initial reaction was based on people posting that using them would be sabatoged because they require lifting. I thought they had actually seen them. There was an intimation that there would be lifting over head height. That turns out not to be true. I don't see that they would require lifting or much more than already happens. As far as posting the image, it appears I don't know how to post it. I can't get it to paste.
Click to expand...

Hal, as I said, I accept that it is possible to have interpreted my response to the message that set you off the way you did, and it was a misunderstanding. Ryan and Hal, I think we should put this behind us and move along. I did not say anything about needing to lift bags in the baggage car above head level. I said passengers have to do so in passenger cars, so it should not be too darn hard for personnel to lift bags to at most waist level in baggage cars. Anyway that is what I intended to say, and I did not say it clearly enough.

As for the picture, here it is, (photo by Amtrak):









> Everything that Amtrak has bought has required modifications. No doubt these will require some. Now having actually seen the interior I have a different concern about the shelves. I am skeptical about Amtrak maintaining them. They have moving parts and baggage cars have had low priority. If the shelves are not maintained properly they might have to be removed in the future for that reason. Everything that Amtrak has bought has required modifications. No doubt these will require some. Now having actually seen the interior I have a different concern about the shelves. I am skeptical about Amtrak maintaining them. They have moving parts and baggage cars have had low priority. If the shelves are not maintained properly they might have to be removed in the future for that reason.


Shades of the TV monitors in Viewliner Is eh? Or maybe they'll simply be stolen, who knows? It is Amtrak afterall!


----------



## neroden

edjbox said:


> question is if some existing heritage baggage cars are replaced with baggage-dorms, that means Amtrak will have less room for baggage; will this work?


I worried about this myself. Until I learned that many of the Heritage baggage cars are significantly shorter than the 85' long Viewliner IIs. I haven't been able to find a site which actually says exactly how long each Heritage baggage car is. But the cars originally built as baggage cars seem to mostly be 73'10". As for the converted coaches, which seem to be mostly 85', they have weight limits lower than the other baggage cars because their suspensions weren't built to handle the baggage. Finally, most of the Heritage baggage cars don't have shelves.

So I think the loss in useable capacity will be significantly smaller than you might at first think. It's not going to be the 50% reduction which it naively appears to be. A Viewliner II bag-dorm might have 80% of the useful capacity of a Heritage baggage car. I'm still expecting full baggage cars to be needed on the single-level trains at peak times, though.


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> No, they're not going to keep any Heratige bags. They're falling apart.


There are fewer than 58 baggage cars in daily use (I'm not exactly sure how many). 25 Viewliner bag-dorms and 55 Viewliner baggage cars really should replace all of them, even if some trains need both a baggage car and a bag-dorm.

However, the last fleet plan published (3.1) indicated the intent to keep 25 Heritage baggage cars "active" indefinitely. It's on page 56. Of course, this plan also indicated that there are 416 (!!!) baggage cars still on the roster (mostly inactive), which is a little weird; there must be a *lot* of stored baggage cars somewhere. Anyway, if Amtrak does decide to keep some Heritage baggage cars active, I assume it would be strictly for "peak of the peak" such as Thanksgiving traffic. I'd also bet that Amtrak would keep only the ones built as baggage cars, and scrap all of the coaches-converted-to-baggage-cars, an idea which apparently caused structural problems.


----------



## Acela150

61000 is sitting in Penn Coach Yard this morning. Lookin' nice too!


----------



## PerRock

There are a handful of heritage cars in Beech Grove, however I wonder if that 416 includes the the Superliner Coach Baggages and Cabbages.

peter


----------



## PaulM

Is that bicycle an indication that there will be roll-on, roll-off bike service like Amtrak has been promising the Great Allegheny Passage crowd for a long time? Or is it just an employee who found a good place to stash his ride?


----------



## Deni

An article I saw about the new baggage cars said specifically they were designed with bike racks included.


----------



## Anderson

I do wonder if some of the 416 "baggage" cars might not actually be the leftover Amtrak Express cars, simply accounted for in a rather sloppy manner.


----------



## Acela150

Most of those 400+cars will be scrapped or end up running on the Circus Train.


----------



## neroden

PerRock said:


> There are a handful of heritage cars in Beech Grove, however I wonder if that 416 includes the the Superliner Coach Baggages and Cabbages.


No, they're listed separately. The implication is that these baggage cars are "stored dead", since they're inactive.



Anderson said:


> I do wonder if some of the 416 "baggage" cars might not actually be the leftover Amtrak Express cars, simply accounted for in a rather sloppy manner.


That's extremely likely. I'm still a little curious *where* Amtrak is storing 300+ baggage or express freight cars!


----------



## Ryan

Thanks for sharing the picture, Hal. The new car looks great. Hopefully the shelves will work out, and the new cars will allow roll on/roll off bike transport.

I understand that designs aren't perfect at the first go and need some tweaking. Ensuring the kitchen is designed in a useable fashion is one of the reasons why we've seen the 8400 out roaming.


----------



## edjbox

Anyone have a list of passenger/baggage cars that are currently being stored??

As for the express cars, most if not all have been sold off and have been seen on freight trains, some still in faded Amtrak paint with a new car number


----------



## jis

Maybe it is time to branch off a separate thread on baggage cars and their history. Afterall, the current disposition of 400+ Heritage HEP Baggage Cars, while quite interesting I am sure, has precious little to do with Vewliners.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> question is if some existing heritage baggage cars are replaced with baggage-dorms, that means Amtrak will have less room for baggage; will this work?
> 
> 
> 
> I worried about this myself. Until I learned that many of the Heritage baggage cars are significantly shorter than the 85' long Viewliner IIs. I haven't been able to find a site which actually says exactly how long each Heritage baggage car is. But the cars originally built as baggage cars seem to mostly be 73'10". As for the converted coaches, which seem to be mostly 85', they have weight limits lower than the other baggage cars because their suspensions weren't built to handle the baggage. Finally, most of the Heritage baggage cars don't have shelves.
Click to expand...

According to Warner's _Amtrak by the Numbers_, the HEP Heritage Baggage fleet has 80 Short Baggage Cars numbered 1350 to 1429. 1350 through 1379 retained their original numbers. Many of the rest were renumbered into the 1100 and 1200 series, so it is hard to figure out how many got that treatment without going through the conversion lists on a car by car basis. I don't know how many are still in service (possibly none. The would be the single door really short cars, which I don't recall having seen in the recent past). Apparently all were converted from Army Kitchen and Ambulance cars.

Then there are the original baggage cars which are the 73 footers (I think) and they are sprinkled all across the 11xx and 12xx numbers today. They are the ones that have two side doors and no end doors. But that is not a distinguishing characteristic, since I believe there are 85 foot baggage cars too that are like that.

OTOL Roster says that there are only 27 cars in the 1160 - 1259 number range still in service. Many of these are probably 73 footers. I don't know if there are any ex-Army ones, which are shorter, are left. There are 35 converted 85 footer baggage cars in service numbered in the 17xx block.


----------



## R30A

A few notes on jis's above post: 
the 1300s were the short baggage cars (53 feet IIRC), not the 1400s. The 1400s were bag-dorms, which as they got HEP were renumbered into the 1600s. The 1400s were also Amtrak cars, formerly Hospital cars. The 1300s were kitchens. Hospital cars also ended up as normal baggage cars in the 1100-1200 series, as well as lounges in the 3100 series. These are still in use as the food service/baggage cars on the Piedmont today. 

The 1800 series are not converted coaches, but were modified baggage cars for northeast baggage services. (I have no idea what these modifications were- perhaps push pull as some were on the vermonter? )

Most remaining baggage cars are Budds, I don't think any carbon steel cars remain in normal baggage service.


----------



## Amtrak172

If it's true that Amtrak is keeping 25 of the heritage baggage cars, it will most likely be the ones that are ex. coaches (1700 series). The original 73' baggage cars (1200 series) are older and less reliable. Is there any news on if Amtrak will paint the rest of the Viewliner II's in Phase IVb?


----------



## edjbox

Most of the 1800 series are gone. I've seen pics of the early numbered 1800s on the Vermonter, Adirondack, etc, with special paint for their particular route, even though at times those cars have been seen on other NE trains in the early 2000s such as the twilight shoreliner. They only 1800s left I believe are1855-1857, with 1856 more recently being renumbered for the exhibit train


----------



## R30A

Yes, only 2 1800s remain in service, however, there never were many of them.


----------



## jis

Thanks a lot guys, for the additional info. That is extremely helpful to me when overlayed on the base info that is in Warner's book. As you can see I was a bit confused about several things, since it is quite tedious to track each individual car to figure these things out.

According to Warner the only 18xx cars that ever existed were the following:

1800 ex-1136 Vermonter livery
1801 ex-1175 Vermonter livery
1802 ex-1182 Vermonter scheme

1850 ex-1179
1851 ex-1178 Adirondack livery
1852 ex-1138 Ethan Allen livery
1853 ex-1191 Adirondack livery
1854 ex-1006 Ethan Allen Livery
1855 ex-1225 Twilight Shoreliner livery [active standard livery]
1856 ex-1219 Twilight Shoreliner livery [40th Anniversary Train]
1857 ex-1209 Twilight Shoreliner livery [active standard livery]


----------



## Amtrak172

Any information on what paint scheme Amtrak decided to go with for the Viewliner II's?


----------



## Ryan

Yes: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/57231-amtrak-america-new-ld-train-branding/


----------



## hastybob

OK - let's try that again - hit enter too quck...

Here is the current breakdown of in service baggage cars:

27 heritage bagg cars

35 heritage (ex coach)

2 bike cars

19 cabbages

44 superliner coach bagg

Also, NCDOT coach baggage - 1

Talgo bike baggage - 7

Pacific Surfliner cabbages - 11

California bagg/coaches - 11

This does not include the bagg cars in the exhibit train or stored cars.


----------



## John Bobinyec

hastybob said:


> Also, NCDOT coach baggage - 1


NC DOT has:

1 coach/baggage

4 lounge/baggage

jb


----------



## AmtrakBlue

hastybob said:


> OK - let's try that again - hit enter too quck...


Was hastybob too hasty? :giggle:


----------



## hastybob

Definately......LOL


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

edjbox said:


> As for the express cars, most if not all have been sold off and have been seen on freight trains, some still in faded Amtrak paint with a new car number.


Fact check needed.

It seem all of the Reefer Boxcars are sitting around the country (multi-locations) rusting away.

I have seen some of the newer (green or silver) express cars in freight service, but I doubt the "most or all" statement.


----------



## OBS

Agreed. I have seen several desolate sidings occupied with many of the old express cars.


----------



## PRR 60

OBS said:


> Agreed. I have seen several desolate sidings occupied with many of the old express cars.


I think most have been sold, either for other use or scrap. The old dead line of ExpressTrak cars just outside Harrisburg disappeared about a year ago. Same with the cars outside LA.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Yes I notice the Harrisburg lines have moved, but I have also seen Reefer cars lined up in IL now. The only to count for a large number of "bagged cars".

Could we have a Amtrak accounting error. The total number of cars, then a breakdown later in the report.

I just saying "Fact Check is needed"


----------



## edjbox

Heard that the Viewliner baggage car at Philadelphia was moved and then moved back, what's going on?


----------



## Acela150

edjbox said:


> Heard that the Viewliner baggage car at Philadelphia was moved and then moved back, what's going on?


Probably testing on the NEC.. Why wouldn't it be testing??


----------



## jis

edjbox said:


> Heard that the Viewliner baggage car at Philadelphia was moved and then moved back, what's going on?


Welll..... let's see..... maybe testing? Nah! Why would they do that? It looks so pretty standing in the yard


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heard that the Viewliner baggage car at Philadelphia was moved and then moved back, what's going on?
> 
> 
> 
> Welll..... let's see..... maybe testing? Nah! Why would they do that? It looks so pretty standing in the yard
Click to expand...

That must be the most talked about and photographed baggage car in history.


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heard that the Viewliner baggage car at Philadelphia was moved and then moved back, what's going on?
> 
> 
> 
> Welll..... let's see..... maybe testing? Nah! Why would they do that? It looks so pretty standing in the yard
Click to expand...

I really thought about saying that..


----------



## edjbox

anyone have any pics/videos of the baggage car in testing?


----------



## NE933

It will look a lot prettier flying down a well kept mainline at 90mph, with 15 other Viewliners/Amfleet II's, behind a couple of Genesis locomotives.


----------



## Ryan

Or an ACS-64 at 125 MPH.


----------



## Amtrak172

Wait did Amtrak start testing the baggage car on the NEC?


----------



## Ryan

Well they took it to PHL, where it comes and goes. What else would they be doing with it?


----------



## jis

[jest mode on]

Must be Boardman riding around in his new toy. That would explain its coming and going from Philly won't it? Now the question is what menu is he served while playing around in his baggage car. Does the temporary table (one of those baggage shelves I bet) have flower on it?

[jest mode off]


----------



## JoeBas

Personally, I think they're just trolling railfans - doing the "David Copperfield" think and making the car disappear and reappear on the spot.

It's like a cat with a laser pointer...


----------



## Agent

RyanS said:


> Well they took it to PHL, where it comes and goes. What else would they be doing with it?


Maybe they're running it on round trips to Bala Cynwyd?


----------



## edjbox

I hope these new Viewliners don't have any problems with their pipes freezing


----------



## Amtrak172

I doubt the Viewliner II's will have this problem. Amtrak knows about the problem so they would probably want it fixed. Amtrak knows what to do.


----------



## edjbox

I hope


----------



## JoeBas

Amtrak172 said:


> I doubt the Viewliner II's will have this problem. Amtrak knows about the problem so they would probably want it fixed. Amtrak knows what to do.


That's a pretty big assumption for an organization that doesn't know that when you spill liquid on butcher paper, it slides around. :unsure:


----------



## Amtrak172

JoeBas said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt the Viewliner II's will have this problem. Amtrak knows about the problem so they would probably want it fixed. Amtrak knows what to do.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a pretty big assumption for an organization that doesn't know that when you spill liquid on butcher paper, it slides around. :unsure:
Click to expand...


Wow, you must not like Amtrak. Why are you here if you don't like them?


----------



## Ryan

No, he has a realistic view of the world.

I think I heard something about a design change that would help this, but I'm not sure about the specifics.

But blind faith that Amtrak can fix anything because they're awesome isn't really grounded in reality.


----------



## VentureForth

You would think that Amtrak would know about these problems, but they still exist. Freezing was an issue when the current Amfleets, Viewliners, Superliners, etc. were designed. But they all seem to have issues in the Winter.

I mean, seriously, snow existed in the 1950s when the Amfleets were being designed, and in the 60s when the Hi-Rails were designed, in the 80s & 90s when the Viewliners and Superliners were being designed, but pipes still freeze. Toilets still fail.


----------



## Ryan

I 100% guarantee you that no toilets will fail in the roomettes of the Viewliner II's. h34r:


----------



## PRR 60

I heard that the prototype Viewliner dining car (#8400) was out of service for a period this winter. The reason (wait for it)..... freeze damage.


----------



## PerRock

PRR 60 said:


> I heard that the prototype Viewliner dining car (#8400) was out of service for a period this winter. The reason (wait for it)..... freeze damage.


Well #8400 is still a Viewliner I. The main frame & undercarriage workings (which is where you get the freezing) is still the same as the Viewliner I Sleepers. If you look at and current VL Sleeper (or 8400) you'll see all the exsposed parts, whereas if you look at the VL2 Baggage that's out you'll notice that all the undercarriage stuff is now enclosed. I'm not saying there won't be any winter freezing, but there will be considerably less then the current VL1s.

peter


----------



## neroden

The plan was to put some sort of insulation and shrouding on the base of the Viewliner IIs. I have no idea whether they did this. However, they definitely didn't do this on #8400.

(There were some rumors of retrofitting the Viewliner Is, but that probably can't happen until Viewliner IIs go into service.)


----------



## Ryan

PerRock said:


> Well #8400 is still a Viewliner II. The main frame & undercarriage workings (which is where you get the freezing) is still the same as the Viewliner I Sleepers.


I think you meant "is still a Viewliner I (not II)?


----------



## PerRock

RyanS said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well #8400 is still a Viewliner II. The main frame & undercarriage workings (which is where you get the freezing) is still the same as the Viewliner I Sleepers.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you meant "is still a Viewliner I (not II)?
Click to expand...

oops yup, typo.

peter


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> No, he has a realistic view of the world.
> 
> I think I heard something about a design change that would help this, but I'm not sure about the specifics.
> 
> But blind faith that Amtrak can fix anything because they're awesome isn't really grounded in reality.




The reason why I would think Amtrak would know to fix this is because they wouldn't have to worry about switching around the consists every year. Plus they wouldn't have to make sure that there is an extra Viewliner available for backup.

Amtrak172


----------



## Ryan

They're not worrying about switching consists around every year. The "winter" configuration is the new all-the-time configuration.

You still need an extra Viewliner available for backup in case of other mechanical issues.


----------



## jis

Irrespective of freeze problems, the single level Viewliner fleet has to be rotated through Hialeah for periodic maintenance and inspections.

Part of the freeze problem has its origins in inadequate facilities to hook up power to stabled consists, or failure to do so for reasons that have been discussed elsewhere on AU in the past.

I was talking to some folks at Alaska Railroad last year when I was there after a good 2 feet worth of snow fell in Fairbanks in a single day and then the temp hit -32F. This guy told me that he is not aware of any cars that would not freeze in deep winter if it is not handled properly. Alaska actually drains cars completely of all fluids that are stored dead outside in the winter and then seals them specially, so there is nothing to freeze. Cars that remain in operation remain connected to power and some unspecified procedures are followed regularly while they are stabled to keep them from freezing.

I have no idea if Amtrak has any such specific freeze prevention measures that are followed.

As for Amtrak being able to do something, almost anything is theoretically possible. But many logical things become less than possible given the organizational structure and internal politics within Amtrak. It is a remarkably dysfunctional organization in some parts where it would help if it were not so. Typically what happens is that the guys who have to worry about unfreezing cars are not too connected with the guys whose actions or lack thereof causes them to freeze, and the guy who decides features to be incorporated in cars is way far removed from all that. All this while the management guy above them is busy worrying about something else, or is getting reorganized. So there is often no one really minding the store.


----------



## neroden

Chicago apparently still doesn't have shore power sufficient for all cars. And I think most of Amtrak's other terminals (Pontiac, Port Huron, Grand Rapids, etc.) don't have any shore power. So there you are.


----------



## jis

Of course I am not suggesting that there are no differences in a car's behavior in freezing temperatures irrespective of its construction. Certain cars do fare better than others because of how various critical equipment is placed and whether the under floor equipment is enclosed or not. As Indian Railways is learning in Kashmir, you cannot just take a piece of equipment that works fine on the tropical plains and plop it down in an area that gets temps considerably below freezing for a significant period of time and expect them to just work. They will experience problems in spades in the winter, when they run regular through trains from the plains to Srinagar upon the completion of the remaining part of the Kashmir Railway across the Chenab on one of world's highest steel arch bridge.


----------



## William

I really hope the first diners and baggage dorms go on the Cardinal. That train DESPERATELY needs an upgrade. Half of the current lone Viewliner is used by the crew, resulting in what little space is available for revenue being exorbitantly expensive, and sold out most of the time. It is also the only LD train that runs without a real diner. That also needs to change. I'm pretty much done with that train until the new cars arrive (what sealed that stance was my recent trip from San Francisco to Chicago on the CZ, in a bedroom. Talk about night and day). Hopefully once the current service is brought up to par, they can look at finally making it a daily train. I've also heard rumors that the Cardinal may switch to Superliners and end at D.C., so who knows what is actually going to happen (if that were to happen, hopefully they could improve the scheduling in the middle of the route, specifically Cincinnati. I'd be OK with it coming in at 11PM or 6AM, but 1AM and 3AM are just murder).


----------



## Ryan

Daily Card also needs track improvements in VA at a minimum.

After ridership increased greatly when the Cardinal switched from Superliners to single level (and extended from DC to NY), don't hold your breath for that change. Also, there aren't enough Superliners to do that.

How would you help CIN without hosing over the end points?


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> They're not worrying about switching consists around every year. The "winter" configuration is the new all-the-time configuration.
> 
> You still need an extra Viewliner available for backup in case of other mechanical issues.




Do you know why they are making this the new all time configuration? I'll bet because they were getting many complaints from sleeper car passengers about the horn.

Amtrak172


----------



## Ryan

You should try reading the thread about it.


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> You should try reading the thread about it.


Maybe you can just answer the question.

Amtrak172


----------



## Ryan

I did, in the appropriate thread.


----------



## Williamf

RyanS said:


> Daily Card also needs track improvements in VA at a minimum.
> 
> After ridership increased greatly when the Cardinal switched from Superliners to single level (and extended from DC to NY), don't hold your breath for that change. Also, there aren't enough Superliners to do that.
> 
> How would you help CIN without hosing over the end points?


If they truncate the Cardinal at D.C, it could leave later out of CHI (7 or 8 instead of 5) and D.C. earlier (8-9AM instead of 11AM).

That is a reasonable adjustment, and makes the Cincinnati arrival times 6AM and 11PM respectively. The only issue I see is that since the 50/51 is also the Hoosier State 3

days/week, that particular schedule may not work (although, if they can finally get the ohio hub going, they could truly make the Hoosier State its own train, and extend it to CIN). In terms of the BB, Virginia has spend quite a bit over the last few years upgrading track and adding sidings, so I think that is less of an issue. How many people go north of WAS? I was under the impression that it was relatively few. In terms of Superliners, they could take them off of the City of New Orleans (it was single level for most of its existence, I believe) once the additional view liners become available. I'm just thinking out loud haha, my ideas probably aren't realistic.


----------



## MattW

Actually as I recall, when the Cardinal was extended to NY the ridership was significantly higher.


----------



## neroden

I analyzed Cardinal ridership patterns recently. The interesting fact is that relatively few passengers are riding between Cincy and Indianapolis, and most of those are going all the way from NY to Chicago. Cincy-Chicago is a weak market.

Cincy-NY, on the other hand, is a pretty big market.

So if you're designing alternate schedules, it's worth keeping this in mind. Unfortunately, I don't think there are many tweaks to the schedules which can improve the Cincy-NY times; maybe leaving NYC at 5:00 AM instead of 6:45 AM (arrive Cincy at 11:28 PM), or leaving Cincy at 5 AM instead of 3:27 AM (arrive NYC at 11:29 PM).

Unfortunately, this would make Indianapolis-Chicago times even worse, unless the schedule simply had hours of padding added at Cincy and Indy. It might actually be worth it to add those hours of padding. If that was the bribe CSX needed to make the Cardinal daily, then I'd take it... otherwise not.


----------



## NE933

I confess to all on here, about my feelings on the Cardinal, because I feel guilty. The "crime" is born out of limited resources, namely that there are or will be, so many sleepers and diners available to go around.

My hopes are for the Florida trains ('cause I use them now and for three decades so the heart is involved) to get the beefed up to what they used to be: 15 to 18 cars long, filled with passengers. I saw it that's how I know. Also, even though I rode only once, the Broadway Limited, i'd love for that to be resurrected because of its storied history and, because it's a more direct route from NY to Chicago than the Cardinal routing.

So what about the Cardinal? Well, I have to be reasonable and empathetic because those who run our rail systems have to be and I cant' call on those people to be that if I can't myself. Sometimes I feel like the Cardinal should've been axed instead of the Broadway, maybe.. maybe, because the Broadway complemented the Amtrak system so much better, in its connections with the Capitol Limited in Pittsburg, and so on and so on.

But, then I say that axing the Cardinal is wrong too, because it serves and carries people in certain areas along the route (and I do not know their names, but they ARE communities who want and need this train so yes, their needs to be a Cardinal). The reason for the trains tiny five or six cars are man made, like all the others. Past and current management were unable, or they chose to perhaps, to let this train be the sacrificial ******* lamb, so that others may survive. But that sucks, of course, for the riders who use it.

The fact that it spends a large part of its time on branch lines (Buckingham branch) is the holy calling Amtrak has to answer to and is the very spirit of a national system, of America's Railroad. It's supposed to go on these little branches, as well as big high iron mainlines, because... isn't that who we are?

So let me make peace by saying that I hope the Cardinal, and the other long distance trains, gets the badly needed new rolling stock so that they can truly grow in size enough to carry all the people who want to ride them. I remember the Cardinal used to be around twelve Amtrak cars and also carried American Orient Express for awhile in the earlyl 1990's a length that required an E60. Maybe the day is around the corner it can be that way again.

Peace. Harmony. On the rails. May it be once again.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Poor ridership between CIN and CHI is probably related to the extremely slow speeds. A train needs to at least equal highway speeds in order to compete with automobiles. Between Indy and Chicago, the train dawdles. Between Indy and CIN it crawls. The Cardinal exists to serve markets in West Virginia. It will never be equal with the LSL, the Capital or a revived Broadway.


----------



## neroden

MikefromCrete said:


> Poor ridership between CIN and CHI is probably related to the extremely slow speeds. A train needs to at least equal highway speeds in order to compete with automobiles. Between Indy and Chicago, the train dawdles. Between Indy and CIN it crawls. The Cardinal exists to serve markets in West Virginia. It will never be equal with the LSL, the Capital or a revived Broadway.


From Indianapolis to Chicago, we all know that the route could be made a lot faster with some capital investment.

But from Indianapolis to Cincinnati, I don't know much about the right-of-way. It looks at a brief glance as if it could also be made a lot faster. Or is this a case where the right-of-way is hopelessly twisty?


----------



## William

CHI-CIN is a mess. The max authorized speed is 60 MPH in most areas, and it often operates at speeds less than that. That portion of the route is where 80%+ of the delays occur. It'll take Indiana and Ohio becoming interested in rail travel again for the needed upgrades to be made (that won't happen as long as Kasich, who blocked the Ohio Hub, is in office).


----------



## andersone

I live thirty miles from the Cardinal and never ride it. The arrival / departure times are like pulling teeth, the train is so SLOW to CHI that I can actually drive from here to GBB and catch the CZ in less time,,, and on the way back be home before the Card makes it to Indy. It is a lovely trip going east, but I rarely go that way,,, IT is also the only train I have ever been on that ran out of fuel. I have already said my piece about Kaseless, but we failed to RelecTED.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poor ridership between CIN and CHI is probably related to the extremely slow speeds.
> 
> A train needs to at least equal highway speeds in order to compete with automobiles.
> 
> Between Indy and Chicago, the train dawdles. Between Indy and CIN it crawls. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> From Indianapolis to Chicago, we all know that the route could be made a lot faster
> 
> with some capital investment.
Click to expand...

From Indianapolis to the Illinois state line, for a mere  $250 million,

a handful of bypasses (and this and that) could cut half an hour from

the schedule. The investment would allow a daily Cardinal and two (2)

Hoosier State corridor trains. But the Hoosiers would require a $10 million

operating subsidy.

http://www.in.gov/indot/files/Amtrak_CostBenefitAnalysis_2013.pdf

The study for the Indiana Dept of Highways didn't seem to justify that

kind of spending. Of course, it admitted that many benefits of rail

can't be easily quantified, so it didn't.

It also did not include any estimate of additional revenues to Amtrak

from the new trains connecting with, and adding passengers to, existing

or future LD and corridor trains. It did not estimate any benefit to Amtrak

from having two trains sharing station costs etc, nor any marketing

benefits to the Cardinal from the additional trains making same day

return trips Indy-Chicago possible. It only looked at costs and benefits

to Indiana. Someone awarding TIGER grants might take the

larger view of the return on such an investment.

The study did point out that additional trip time savings in the Illinois

segment could come as various C.R.E.A.T.E. projects and resulting

reroutings got funded and completed.


----------



## neroden

That Indiana study doesn't even consider improvements from Dyer to Chicago ("South of the Lake"), which are very high on Amtrak's wishlist, and would probably give even more bang for the buck.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> I analyzed Cardinal ridership patterns recently. The interesting fact is that relatively
> 
> few passengers are riding between Cincy and Indianapolis, and most of those are
> 
> going all the way from NY to Chicago. Cincy-Chicago is a weak market.
> 
> Cincy-NY, on the other hand, is a pretty big market.
> 
> So if you're designing alternate schedules, it's worth keeping this in mind. Unfortunately,
> 
> I don't think there are many tweaks to the schedules which can improve the Cincy-NY times;
> 
> maybe leaving NYC at 5:00 AM instead of 6:45 AM (arrive Cincy at 11:28 PM), or leaving Cincy
> 
> at 5 AM instead of 3:27 AM (arrive NYC at 11:29 PM).


I wouldn't expect many passengers between here and there

or anywhere departing after midnight and arriving before dawn.

But many passengers who board earlier and alight later do ride

the trains Cincy-Indy-and beyond. They seem to live with the

schedule.

There's not much room to tweak them at all.

I'm not a morning person, so it never would occur to me that

leaving NYC at 5 a.m. would be a good thing. LOL.

When the Viewliner IIs allow faster speeds on the NEC maybe

pick up 2 or 3 minutes. Minutes could be cut D.C.-Alexandria

(now 8 miles, 19 minutes) with a new Long Bridge over the Potomac.

Virginia could wring out another 5 minutes thru Charlottesville to

the WVa border. Then enter the New River Gorge, part of the

National Park system, where changes would require an act of

Congress. Cut 10 minutes from the schedule, arrive in Charleston

at 8:06 p.m. instead of 8:16? A nothing burger.

Time might be cut Charleston-Cincy (now 209 miles, 297 minutes).

But Ohio, Kentucky, and West Virginia all agree: They don't give

a damn about spending money on passenger trains.

When the Viewliner IIs arrive, add equipment to the_ Cardinal_

and take it daily. That's all.

Ridership will double, loss per passenger will drop sharply, the

_Cardinal_'s performance will fall into a range with other LD trains.

Declare success and move on.


----------



## William

WoodyinNYC said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I analyzed Cardinal ridership patterns recently. The interesting fact is that relatively
> 
> few passengers are riding between Cincy and Indianapolis, and most of those are
> 
> going all the way from NY to Chicago. Cincy-Chicago is a weak market.
> 
> Cincy-NY, on the other hand, is a pretty big market.
> 
> So if you're designing alternate schedules, it's worth keeping this in mind. Unfortunately,
> 
> I don't think there are many tweaks to the schedules which can improve the Cincy-NY times;
> 
> maybe leaving NYC at 5:00 AM instead of 6:45 AM (arrive Cincy at 11:28 PM), or leaving Cincy
> 
> at 5 AM instead of 3:27 AM (arrive NYC at 11:29 PM).
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect many passengers between here and there
> 
> or anywhere departing after midnight and arriving before dawn.
> 
> But many passengers who board earlier and alight later do ride
> 
> the trains Cincy-Indy-and beyond. They seem to live with the
> 
> schedule.
> 
> There's not much room to tweak them at all.
> 
> I'm not a morning person, so it never would occur to me that
> 
> leaving NYC at 5 a.m. would be a good thing. LOL.
> 
> When the Viewliner IIs allow faster speeds on the NEC maybe
> 
> pick up 2 or 3 minutes. Minutes could be cut D.C.-Alexandria
> 
> (now 8 miles, 19 minutes) with a new Long Bridge over the Potomac.
> 
> Virginia could wring out another 5 minutes thru Charlottesville to
> 
> the WVa border. Then enter the New River Gorge, part of the
> 
> National Park system, where changes would require an act of
> 
> Congress. Cut 10 minutes from the schedule, arrive in Charleston
> 
> at 8:06 p.m. instead of 8:16? A nothing burger.
> 
> Time might be cut Charleston-Cincy (now 209 miles, 297 minutes).
> 
> But Ohio, Kentucky, and West Virginia all agree: They don't give
> 
> a damn about spending money on passenger trains.
> 
> When the Viewliner IIs arrive, add equipment to the_ Cardinal_
> 
> and take it daily. That's all.
> 
> Ridership will double, loss per passenger will drop sharply, the
> 
> _Cardinal_'s performance will fall into a range with other LD trains.
> 
> Declare success and move on.
Click to expand...

Good points. I definitely agree. Now the question is: will the Cardinal be among the first to get the new equipment, or be last (as is par for the course). At the very least, it should start with getting baggage dorms, in order to free up revenue space in its single sleeper. Getting rid of the heritage baggage cars should also allow for a speed boost on the NEC, from 100 to 110 MPH. After that, add proper diners and see how things go from there.


----------



## jis

No it won't. Heritage Baggage cars are cleared for 110mph as is. Replacing Heritage Cars with Viewliner IIs will potentially boost the max speed to 125mph. However, the time saving will be next to nil since the minute or two involved will simply be absorbed into padding.


----------



## Amtrak172

Does anyone know when the Viewliner II's are going to enter revenue service?

Amtrak172


----------



## R30A

Amtrak172 said:


> Does anyone know when the Viewliner II's are going to enter revenue service?
> 
> Amtrak172


No.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Shadow Knows but he"s not telling!


----------



## rrdude

Amtrak172 said:


> Does anyone know when the Viewliner II's are going to enter revenue service?
> 
> Amtrak172


Hellz no. But you bet your LAST PAYCHECK, there will be a MAJOR FOAM-A-THON, the minute the first sleeper and/or diner hits the rails...........

Look at all the traffic a simple Bag car generated?


----------



## William

jis said:


> No it won't. Heritage Baggage cars are cleared for 110mph as is. Replacing Heritage Cars with Viewliner IIs will potentially boost the max speed to 125mph. However, the time saving will be next to nil since the minute or two involved will simply be absorbed into padding.


Good to know. I thought the heritage units were capped at 100MPH. I'm pretty sure the Viewliner Is are capped at 110MPH though.


----------



## Ryan

They are, last I heard.


----------



## jis

William said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> No it won't. Heritage Baggage cars are cleared for 110mph as is. Replacing Heritage Cars with Viewliner IIs will potentially boost the max speed to 125mph. However, the time saving will be next to nil since the minute or two involved will simply be absorbed into padding.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know. I thought the heritage units were capped at 100MPH. I'm pretty sure the Viewliner Is are capped at 110MPH though.
Click to expand...

Viewliner Is and Heritage cars are 110mph capable. Actually even many of the PVs, including the _Hickory Creek_ that I rode on several weeks back is OK for 110. Viewliner IIs will be OK for 125mph and Viewliner Is will be upgraded to such. But until the full upgrade happens I suspect Viewliner carrying trains will be timetables as if they are restricted to 110mph.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

At one time, weren't the heritage cars capable of operating at 125mph, but was reduced because of maintenance costs?


----------



## neroden

Everyone has claimed that the Viewliner Is can be upgraded to be 125-mph capable easily, and that they will be. I'd be interested to know what's involved in this -- just recertification? Or actual alterations?


----------



## neroden

William said:


> Good points. I definitely agree. Now the question is: will the Cardinal be among the first to get the new equipment, or be last (as is par for the course). At the very least, it should start with getting baggage dorms,


An early announcment by Amtrak claimed that they would receive 2 of each type of Viewliner II for verification etc. before the main production was done. This may not be true any more. However, on the assumption that that was true, I tried to work out the most logical way to deploy 2 of each car for maximum benefit, and came up with this idea:
-- 2 bag-dorms to the Cardinal, replacing baggage cars and doubling revenue sleeper space (the only train which can benefit from only 2 bag-dorms)

-- 2 baggage cars to #66/67, allowing it to run at 125 mph (one of the few trains which can benefit from only 2 baggage cars; the others are the Cardinal and the Palmetto, and this one spends the largest percentage of its time on the NEC)

-- 2 sleeping cars either to #66/67, or to the Cardinal (the only two places where you could guarantee that the Viewliner IIs would be used on nearly every trip, since they can't be used interchangably with Viewliner Is as long as they have a different number of roomettes)

-- 2 dining cars to the Lake Shore Limited, joining #8400 for a consistent roster of 3 Viewliner dining cars (the only train where this could be done)

Of course, Amtrak may not be getting its cars in this order any more. If (for instance) all the dining cars are delivered before the first sleeping car, logical deployment would be very different.


----------



## NE933

neroden said:


> Everyone has claimed that the Viewliner Is can be upgraded to be 125-mph capable easily, and that they will be. I'd be interested to know what's involved in this -- just recertification? Or actual alterations?


Good question, which implies why they didn't build them that way to begin with, and/or why they are not starting with any alterations now so that they are ready to go.


----------



## William

neroden said:


> William said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good points. I definitely agree. Now the question is: will the Cardinal be among the first to get the new equipment, or be last (as is par for the course). At the very least, it should start with getting baggage dorms,
> 
> 
> 
> An early announcment by Amtrak claimed that they would receive 2 of each type of Viewliner II for verification etc. before the main production was done. This may not be true any more. However, on the assumption that that was true, I tried to work out the most logical way to deploy 2 of each car for maximum benefit, and came up with this idea:
> -- 2 bag-dorms to the Cardinal, replacing baggage cars and doubling revenue sleeper space (the only train which can benefit from only 2 bag-dorms)
> 
> -- 2 baggage cars to #66/67, allowing it to run at 125 mph (one of the few trains which can benefit from only 2 baggage cars; the others are the Cardinal and the Palmetto, and this one spends the largest percentage of its time on the NEC)
> 
> -- 2 sleeping cars either to #66/67, or to the Cardinal (the only two places where you could guarantee that the Viewliner IIs would be used on nearly every trip, since they can't be used interchangably with Viewliner Is as long as they have a different number of roomettes)
> 
> -- 2 dining cars to the Lake Shore Limited, joining #8400 for a consistent roster of 3 Viewliner dining cars (the only train where this could be done)
> 
> Of course, Amtrak may not be getting its cars in this order any more. If (for instance) all the dining cars are delivered before the first sleeping car, logical deployment would be very different.
Click to expand...

#66/67 could do well to get the first sleeping cars. I don't think that the Cardinal is used enough to support another sleeping car in addition to a bag-dorm at this point, but I could be wrong on that point.

In terms of testing, it would be the most logical choice for the sleepers to go to the #66/67, so that Amtrak can make sure that everything performs properly at higher speeds.

I would also think it would be a good allocation since Amtrak could market the #66/67 sleepers to business travelers as a way to combine their hotel and transportation into one for certain types of trips.

Once the Cardinal gets real diners, they could move its current diner-lites to the 66/67.


----------



## neroden

William said:


> #66/67 could do well to get the first sleeping cars. I don't think that the Cardinal is used enough to support another sleeping car in addition to a bag-dorm at this point, but I could be wrong on that point.


If they went on the Cardinal they would be replacing the existing sleeping cars (which could then go into the shop for the process of retrofitting).

My point was merely that the capacity differences between Viewliner I and Viewliner II mean that you can't mix them up willy-nilly the way Amtrak mixes up Superliner Is and Superliner IIs. If a given service runs with 3 trainsets (like the LSL), you have to add Viewliner IIs (or replace Viewliner Is with Viewliner IIs) 3 at a time to ensure consistent capacities.

The Cardinal is the only train with sleepers which runs with 2 trainsets. #66/67 also run with 2 trainsets. So if there are exactly 2 sleeping cars, they have to go on one of these.

If, on the other hand, sleeping cars are being delivered continuously, Amtrak could wait until it has a whole bunch of sleeping cars and re-equip a different train, one with more trainsets.


----------



## jis

NE933 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has claimed that the Viewliner Is can be upgraded to be 125-mph capable easily, and that they will be. I'd be interested to know what's involved in this -- just recertification? Or actual alterations?
> 
> 
> 
> Good question, which implies why they didn't build them that way to begin with, and/or why they are not starting with any alterations now so that they are ready to go.
Click to expand...

Because the Viewliner I upgrade program is currently not funded. As for what is involved I am not sure. I suspect it minimally requires recalibration of the trucks and certification of the modifications together with new maintenance schedules/procedure perhaps.
They did not build them that way because back then they were not spec'ed that way. As for why they were not spec'ed that way, because they knew that they would be running only on trains that would be restricted to 110mph anyway, and they were probably saving a bit of money. Remember that the VL I program was forever in serious financial and other jeopardy and almost did not happen at all.

In general higher speeds never quite come for free.


----------



## Anderson

The Cardinal would be the better choice for the two Viewliner II sleepers, with the freed-up Viewliner Is going to 66/67. The simple fact is that since it needs to run slower than your "average" Regional to have good times at WAS and BOS, 66/67 wouldn't particularly benefit from going faster...any saved time would simply get kicked into the hold at NYP. On the other hand, the Cardinal could use the extra time for timekeeping help.

It _is_ possible that you could see 10-15 minutes dropped from some southbound timetables eventually (as well as possibly a few minutes on the LSL's route in New York), but that won't happen until Amtrak has a good handle on how the new equipment is _really_ handling. What is most likely is that the NB timetables stay unchanged (the trains are discharge-only north of WAS) but we see trains beating the timetable. SB, you'll probably see a few minutes dropped between NYP and WAS to let the trains leave (rather than having to randomly hold at various platforms for the clock to run out)...but most of that will just show right back up in the pad at WAS.


----------



## jis

Anderson said:


> It _is_ possible that you could see 10-15 minutes dropped from some southbound timetables eventually (as well as possibly a few minutes on the LSL's route in New York), but that won't happen until Amtrak has a good handle on how the new equipment is _really_ handling.


My guess is that while it is possible, it mostly won't happen. The extra little time will be used simply to increase schedule reliability. The reason that LDs have the extra time is because they run with the lowest priority on the NEC, and without the schedule slop their schedule reliability would be much worse.


> What is most likely is that the NB timetables stay unchanged (the trains are discharge-only north of WAS) but we see trains beating the timetable. SB, you'll probably see a few minutes dropped between NYP and WAS to let the trains leave (rather than having to randomly hold at various platforms for the clock to run out)...but most of that will just show right back up in the pad at WAS.


I agree with that. It will all get absorbed in the pad. Departure of southbounds from WAS will most likely not change by much, nor will departures from NYP. Actually at NYP the slot situation is bad enough and from thence all the way to Philly and beyond, for the Cardinal to stay exactly in the slot it is in.


----------



## tricia

rrdude said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FOAM-A-THON,
Click to expand...


----------



## Acela150

William said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good points. I definitely agree. Now the question is: will the Cardinal be among the first to get the new equipment, or be last (as is par for the course). At the very least, it should start with getting baggage dorms,
> 
> 
> 
> An early announcment by Amtrak claimed that they would receive 2 of each type of Viewliner II for verification etc. before the main production was done. This may not be true any more. However, on the assumption that that was true, I tried to work out the most logical way to deploy 2 of each car for maximum benefit, and came up with this idea:
> -- 2 bag-dorms to the Cardinal, replacing baggage cars and doubling revenue sleeper space (the only train which can benefit from only 2 bag-dorms)
> 
> -- 2 baggage cars to #66/67, allowing it to run at 125 mph (one of the few trains which can benefit from only 2 baggage cars; the others are the Cardinal and the Palmetto, and this one spends the largest percentage of its time on the NEC)
> 
> -- 2 sleeping cars either to #66/67, or to the Cardinal (the only two places where you could guarantee that the Viewliner IIs would be used on nearly every trip, since they can't be used interchangably with Viewliner Is as long as they have a different number of roomettes)
> 
> -- 2 dining cars to the Lake Shore Limited, joining #8400 for a consistent roster of 3 Viewliner dining cars (the only train where this could be done)
> 
> Of course, Amtrak may not be getting its cars in this order any more. If (for instance) all the dining cars are delivered before the first sleeping car, logical deployment would be very different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think that the Cardinal is used enough to support another sleeping car in addition to a bag-dorm at this point, but I could be wrong on that point.
Click to expand...

The Cardinal doesn't have enough demand for a second sleeper?? That's a total load of bull. The Cardinal sleeper routinely sells out year round! Even on a tri-weekly schedule!!


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> It _is_ possible that you could see 10-15 minutes dropped from some southbound timetables eventually (as well as possibly a few minutes on the LSL's route in New York), but that won't happen until Amtrak has a good handle on how the new equipment is _really_ handling. What is most likely is that the NB timetables stay unchanged (the trains are discharge-only north of WAS) but we see trains beating the timetable. SB, you'll probably see a few minutes dropped between NYP and WAS to let the trains leave (rather than having to randomly hold at various platforms for the clock to run out)...but most of that will just show right back up in the pad at WAS.


By contrast, I would expect Amtrak to completely rearrange the schedules. If the southern trains can run at 125 mph, they can "slot in" better with the 125mph Regionals, which allows for a much more efficiently designed schedule. I would expect this to be done. (Though I must consider whether longer dwell times will continue to prevent them from "slotting" properly.)

Of course, this won't happen until they have fully deployed the Viewliner IIs, retrofitted the Viewliner Is, and done quite a bit of testing.

And I, like you, expect we'll see much larger padding at Washington DC, so that the effective time won't be any faster. Once the trains can be slotted in better with the Regionals, it would actually make sense to add padding *northbound* at DC (as well as southbound) in order to make it more likely for the northbound train to reliably "hit its slot" on the NEC even if it was delayed further south.

More reliable schedule times are valuable, though, even if the schedule isn't any faster.


----------



## jis

Try slotting the Cardinal out of NYP and all the way to Philly. Do take into consideration all the NJT revenue and X moves. It is not just upto Amtrak to redo the timetable. They are a minor part of the NEC operations in terms of total train movements involved, and they acknowledge it. Besides, if the NEC Commission does what it is supposed to, it will also likely result in greater voice for the other operators in the operations of the NEC. Afterall, when you pay substantially more you expect and tend to get substantially more in return. So this whole thing about alternative ways of funding the NEC really is a two edged sword.

The main advantage of 125 mph is that when an LD is running ahead of a Regional it will be able to stay out of its way and not slow it down. But that speed will have no effect on dwell times for baggage car work etc. at stations, which must be accounted for in the schedule. You cannot schedule an LD train to have a one or two minute stop like you can with corridor trains.

Incidentally, this is the same reason that Amtrak wants NJT to run their outer zone expresses with 125mph capability. They don't care as much about how wonderful NJT's schedules will become. They care that they would not trip up the Regionals and even Acelas to some extent while running on the center tracks to Midway.


----------



## William

I've been reading about the Pennsylvanian because I may take it to visit a friend and noticed a mention about adding a Viewliner to it that would act as a through car to Chicago via the Capitol Limited. According to what I read, Amtrak would start this as soon as the equipment and funding is available to do so. Once the new Viewliner sleepers are put into service, I wonder if this will be done.

Check out page six: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/CapLtdPIPsec210PRIIA9-30-10.ashx


----------



## WoodyinNYC

William said:


> I've been reading about the Pennsylvanian . . . and noticed a mention about adding a Viewliner to it that would act as a through car to Chicago via the Capitol Limited. . . . Amtrak would start this as soon as the equipment and funding is available to do so. . . .
> 
> Check out page six: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/CapLtdPIPsec210PRIIA9-30-10.ashx


I checked out page seven: "Norfolk Southern concurrence for track changes and installation of a switch at Pittsburgh must be complete before through service can be implemented." As far as I know, nothing has been done to the physical route to allow the equipment interchange. 

Get back to us in three or four years.


----------



## William

WoodyinNYC said:


> William said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reading about the Pennsylvanian . . . and noticed a mention about adding a Viewliner to it that would act as a through car to Chicago via the Capitol Limited. . . . Amtrak would start this as soon as the equipment and funding is available to do so. . . .
> 
> Check out page six: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/Files/PDF/CapLtdPIPsec210PRIIA9-30-10.ashx
> 
> 
> 
> I checked out page seven: "Norfolk Southern concurrence for track changes and installation of a switch at Pittsburgh must be complete before through service can be implemented." As far as I know, nothing has been done to the physical route to allow the equipment interchange.
> 
> Get back to us in three or four years.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I didn't think about that.


----------



## neroden

I read several years ago (from rumors and secondhand information) that Norfolk Southern had agreed to install the switch and so forth as soon as Amtrak paid them to do it, and that Amtrak was putting it off until later. Presumably because Amtrak didn't have the equipment yet, or because Amtrak hadn't straightened out crew arrangements, or because Amtrak hadn't arranged how to split revenue and costs with the state of Pennsylvania, or... well, there are a lot of other things which could cause delay.


----------



## Acela150

The new baggage car was testing last night in jersey. Passed it on 66.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## CoachSlumber

I was on the Cap Limited westbound Sunday and at the front were several cars that looked like new baggage cars. Were these being tested? There also was a Heritage Sleeper. Was that for the "testers"? And a middle locomotive in different livery; I didn't notice what.

By the way, I nominate the Westbound Harpers Ferry stop for Most Dilapidated.


----------



## jis

From the description it sounds like it was the Amtrak Exhibition Train consist. So no, they were not being tested. They were just being ferried.


----------



## Ryan

A post on TO says that it was moved CHI-STL yesterday, so it makes sense that it went west on the Cap a few days ago.


----------



## hastybob

The new Viewliner bagg car is heading to Boston today. Will be interesting why it is going there.


----------



## Ryan

Testing?


----------



## William

hastybob said:


> The new Viewliner bagg car is heading to Boston today. Will be interesting why it is going there.


Maybe it's just trying to take a vacation in lovely Boston, MA. All of this stalking must be very exhausting for it. :giggle:


----------



## battalion51

The Shore Line is the section of the NEC that has the longest stretches of high speed track without having to slow for curves, so it makes sense to do some of the testing out there. It's possible they may also be trying to shake out some of the issues with the Sprinters and using this as a platform to test both at the same time.


----------



## afigg

Well, this is interesting. Amtrak has posted a news release on the testing of the Viewliner II baggage car that does not say when the diner, sleeper, and bag-dorm cars are expected to enter revenue service, only that the baggage cars will by the end of 2014. But the other 3 types are expected begin field testing "this summer".

Amtrak Long-Distance Equipment Order Advances to Key Milestone



> WASHINGTON – The Amtrak program to modernize its long-distance train equipment has advanced to a key milestone as the first of four new passenger car types is in field testing.
> 
> “It is clear that Americans want a national system of intercity passenger rail and Amtrak is moving ahead to build new equipment to meet customer demand,” said Amtrak President and CEO Joe Boardman.
> 
> The first car type now in field testing is a baggage car and will be used on all 15 long-distance routes across the Amtrak national system. The updated design provides for improved reliability and maintenance, and better baggage loading/unloading procedures. Also, the new built-in luggage racks can secure unboxed bicycles to support the growing demand by passengers to bring their bikes onboard an expanding number of routes.
> 
> The field testing program has several elements, including compatibility tests to ensure the baggage car couples cleanly with, and can operate through a curve without interference with, numerous types of Amtrak cars and locomotives. In addition, there are tests for speed, stability, braking, noise, interaction of the wheel sets with the rail as well as actual baggage handling.
> 
> Field testing will continue through October with the baggage car traveling on the Northeast Corridor and on routes to Chicago, New Orleans and Miami. The expectation is that new baggage cars will begin entering revenue service by the end of 2014.
> 
> The baggage cars are part of a larger order for 130 single-level long-distance passenger cars, including diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars being built by CAF USA of Elmira, N.Y. All four car types will modernize the Amtrak fleet, improve reliability and maintenance, upgrade passenger amenities, travel at speeds up to 125 mph and replace units built as far back as the 1940s and 1950s. The diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars will be used on eastern long-distance routes with the first units of each expected to begin field testing this summer.
> 
> Long-distance trains form the backbone of the Amtrak national system, connect small towns to major cities, support local economic development, deliver passengers to state-supported corridor trains and conduct interstate trade and commerce. Their principal mission is connectivity, and it is an increasingly important one to communities that have been losing their bus and air connections at a steady pace over the last decade.
> 
> Since 1998, Amtrak long-distance ridership has grown by roughly 20 percent, without the introduction of any new services, frequencies, or equipment. In FY 2013, long-distance ridership reached its highest point in twenty years with 4.8 million passengers. In addition, long-distance trains are, on average, as full on the peak leg of their trips as are the premium Acela Express services on the Northeast Corridor.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Wow!

​So baggage cars to officially begin field testing by the end of June,

enter service by the end of December. Six months of field testing. 

Then the first units of [diners, bag-dorms, and sleepers are]

_expected _to begin field testing this summer. That is, the end of

September. Allow six months for field testing. Or more? They

are more complicated than bag cars, they have modules, and

plumbing.

"The _expectation_ is [baggage cars in] revenue service by

the end of 2014" is well put. _Expectation_ is surely much more

accurate than previous assertions that service "will begin by".

But I sort of have my faith renewed by this expectation wording.

Maybe the other cars will enter service by April, 2015? Or at

least by this time next year?

(Thanks for catching this news. )


----------



## Bob Dylan

Isn't 6 months a rather long field testing period?,The new Locomotives seem to be getting tested

and readied for service quickly!


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> Wow!
> 
> ​So baggage cars to officially begin field testing by the end of June,
> 
> enter service by the end of December. Six months of field testing.
> 
> Then the first units of [diners, bag-dorms, and sleepers are]
> 
> _expected _to begin field testing this summer. That is, the end of
> 
> September. Allow six months for field testing. Or more? They
> 
> are more complicated than bag cars, they have modules, and
> 
> plumbing.


Quoting the news release again: "Field testing will continue through October with the baggage car traveling on the Northeast Corridor and on routes to Chicago, New Orleans and Miami." If official field testing is starting in June, October is 4-5 months of field testing. Since this is the first unit to undergo testing, it has to be tested for frame, structural, truck, power, signal, maintenance aspects. The field testing for the other 3 types may not have to be as extensive or take as long.

My interpretation is. however, that it is likely to be early 2015 before any of the other 3 types start to enter revenue service. But this is testing. If problems or design issues are found, then there will be more delays.


----------



## PerRock

So what I understand is that the baggage car that is out is sort of testing two things: the overall design of the viewliner 2 fleet and the baggage car it's self. Hence the long time. It's also going to be tested on all the long distance routes. Once the other cars roll out the testing is just going to be more specific to that type of car. The ACS-64s only have to be tested on the NEC and then only a few trains.


----------



## neroden

I would really hope that the second car type would enter testing before September. I'm not really sure what car type is going to be second at this point, though. The dining cars are more urgent, but the sleeping cars are frankly simpler.

Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car. The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.


----------



## William

neroden said:


> I would really hope that the second car type would enter testing before September. I'm not really sure what car type is going to be second at this point, though. The dining cars are more urgent, but the sleeping cars are frankly simpler.
> 
> Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car. The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.


I really hope that they've corrected the HVAC issues experienced by the VL1s in the VL2 design. I've never been on a Viewliner that has had a properly working system. It's either boiling hot, or completely frozen; there doesn't seem to be a middle setting haha.


----------



## Anderson

William said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would really hope that the second car type would enter testing before September. I'm not really sure what car type is going to be second at this point, though. The dining cars are more urgent, but the sleeping cars are frankly simpler.
> 
> Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car. The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.
> 
> 
> 
> I really hope that they've corrected the HVAC issues experienced by the VL1s in the VL2 design. I've never been on a Viewliner that has had a properly working system. It's either boiling hot, or completely frozen; there doesn't seem to be a middle setting haha.
Click to expand...

I've been on trains that managed to be both in the same trip...usually when the weather is hot in FL and cold up north. Does that count as a middle setting?


----------



## Fan Railer

jimhudson said:


> Isn't 6 months a rather long field testing period?,The new Locomotives seem to be getting tested
> 
> and readied for service quickly!


You have to remember that the Sprinters were released to amtak june of last year (13) and 600 only entered service in February (14). The initial testing period is always longer. Subsequent units / cars can enter service much faster after the initial testing phase is complete.


----------



## R30A

I have found a number of bipolar Viewliner HVACs, where one end is boiling, the other is frozen. Thankfully I was in the middle towards the frozen end.


----------



## hastybob

Railway Age today has an article on the testing.

http://cl.publicaster.com/ClickThru.aspx?pubids=0895%7c13324%7c13425%7c68536&digest=XHJ%2fKwnqewM5gxx%2fPNULcg&sysid=1


----------



## neroden

Fan Railer said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't 6 months a rather long field testing period?,The new Locomotives seem to be getting tested
> 
> and readied for service quickly!
> 
> 
> 
> You have to remember that the Sprinters were released to amtak june of last year (13) and 600 only entered service in February (14). The initial testing period is always longer. Subsequent units / cars can enter service much faster after the initial testing phase is complete.
Click to expand...

There should, however, be a lot less testing for unpowered carriages than for locomotives. So hopefully much less than 9 months from first testing to entering service.


----------



## neroden

neroden said:


> Most of the testing right now is presumably of stuff like underfloor equipment and clearances which is common to all the car designs, and shouldn't have to be retested for different types of car.


...though I just remembered that the suspensions are different on the baggage car (heavy springs on both bogies), bag-dorm (heavy springs on one bogie, lighter springs on other bogie), and diners/sleepers (lighter springs on both bogies), so it is possible that they will have to retest a bunch of this. :-(


----------



## Dutchrailnut

The springs should be same, the secondary springs go by car weight the air bags adjust for weight and height.

This is first baggage car with air suspension, so some of testing is for failed air bags, shifted load, wrong loaded, overload etc etc


----------



## NE933

Is the prolonged time-frame of testing due to suspicions that were made from CAF's delays and the reported problems with assembling the stainless steel?


----------



## neroden

Dutchrailnut said:


> The springs should be same, the secondary springs go by car weight the air bags adjust for weight and height.
> 
> This is first baggage car with air suspension, so some of testing is for failed air bags, shifted load, wrong loaded, overload etc etc


I read something specific a year or two back (do not have the citation) claiming specifically that the bogies would be different on the baggage ends of the Viewliner IIs and that the "heavier duty" bogies would be painted differently in order to make this clear to maintenance. Maybe the source was wrong.


----------



## jis

Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

I recall reading the same thing, but dang if I remember where.


----------



## Miles

Is the viewliner 2 being used right now between New Orleans and Chicago, can I take my bike unboxed right now?


----------



## NE933

If the baggage springs are different, that means I'll have to sneak in to ride it, to see how it feels..


----------



## jis

It won't feel good unless you are baggage :lol:

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PRR 60

Miles said:


> Is the viewliner 2 being used right now between New Orleans and Chicago, can I take my bike unboxed right now?


No. It is still being tested.


----------



## William

Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.


----------



## neroden

William said:


> Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.


I can describe what I know.

- When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.

- When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.

- Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.

- Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".

- Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.

So, before you see any trains cancelled due to lack of Superliners, you'll see trains running short a sleeper or short a lounge. I've never seen this happen with the Superliners; there appear to be enough to make sure that every train has a full consist even if there are unexpected failures. (And apparently there are enough extra Sightseer Lounges to replace PPCs in a pinch.) And we *have* had some major wrecks of Superliners recently (Nevada, for example).

This shows that the really tight rolling stock situation is specifically with the Heritage equipment, and to a lesser extent the Viewliners and Amfleets. There will be enough Superliners for the current services for a while yet. It would be more valuable to exercise options on the CAF order and get more Viewliners.

----

However, there have also been shortages of P42s; the Texas Eagle, which should have two, is routinely sent out with one, and it's pretty common for other trains to be short an engine. The P40 rehabs don't seem to have been sufficient to alleviate the shortages. F59PHIs have been pressed into long-distance service on occasion.

For the western long-distance trains, the motive power situation is probably more urgent than the rolling stock situation. Diesel locomotives have a shorter lifespan than rolling stock in any case.

Amtrak expects its diesels to have a commercial life (when you *should* replace them for maximum profit) of 20 years. 30 years is the standard depreciation period or "useful life" for diesels, and they really don't last much longer than 30 years if they're heavily used. Some other organizations consider diesels to only have a useful life of 20 years, and try to replace them after 10 years! Theoretically they could be gutted and repowered (like the AEM electrics were), but most of the cost is in the parts which have to be replaced, and you generally want to redesign the entire layout if you're replacing the engine. Companies which advertise rebuilding of engines only promise to extend the lifespan to 50 years...

The first P42s are going to be 30 years old in 2016; the P32AC-DMs will turn 30 in 2015; the P40s turned 30 in 2013; the P32s in 2011. The F59PHIs are only a little bit newer and will turn 30 in 2018. Amtrak's diesel locomotives are going to be dying soon, and the situation is rather urgent.

The multistate order for new locomotives is supposed to start delivering in 2016, but it's for a fairly small number of locomotives. Amtrak has a large number of options on this order and hopefully Amtrak will be able to exercise them.

(By contrast, Amtrak considers passenger cars to have a commercial life of 30 years and a useful life of 40 years, but it's quite straightforward to keep them going substantially longer than that, particularly if they get a mid-life refurbishment; the Heritage cars are only now falling apart after 60 years, and were doing pretty well at age 50.

Amtrak considers electric locomotives to have a commercial life of 25 years and a useful life of 30 years, but other organizations expect electric locomotives to last 40 years or more. Electrics are more durable.

Switchers have light duty cycles and low top speeds so they last much longer than road diesels. I'm not entirely sure of all the reasons, but fast, high-horsepower road diesel locomotives seem to have the shortest lifespan of anything on the tracks.)


----------



## NE933

William said:


> Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.


_Yes._


----------



## PerRock

neroden said:


> I can describe what I know.
> 
> - When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.
> 
> - When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.
> 
> - Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.
> 
> - Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".
> 
> - Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.


In all my years following Amtrak's doings I've never heard of a PPC being replaced for a SSL. In fact I think currently Amtrak doesn't have enough PPCs for regular service on the SL, and if they do have enough for regular service, there are no spare. It is much more common to find a SSL replacing an PPC on the SL then a PPC elsewhere in the system.

I have heard of Diner Lites being used for regular Diners when needed.

The P40 rehabs got stonewalled recently, there are still quite a few sitting in BG waiting to be rehabbed. However the last I heard they are being gutted for parts for P42s rather then rehabbing. So the P42 situation isn't that dire.

The new Charger locomotives will replace almost all the corridor P42s in the Midwest and PNW, freeing up quite a few P42s for long distance routes & backups.

peter


----------



## William

neroden said:


> William said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something I had thought about, considering Amtrak's current equipment situation: Is Amtrak one bad wreck away (whether it be Superlines or Viewliners) from having to cut back service on a route(s), or even suspend a route(s) all together? Is their equipment inventory that badly stretched? I know that there aren't any extra Viewliners, and the Superliner situation isn't much better.
> 
> 
> 
> I can describe what I know.
> 
> - When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.
> 
> - When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.
> 
> - Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.
> 
> - Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".
> 
> - Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.
> 
> So, before you see any trains cancelled due to lack of Superliners, you'll see trains running short a sleeper or short a lounge. I've never seen this happen with the Superliners; there appear to be enough to make sure that every train has a full consist even if there are unexpected failures. (And apparently there are enough extra Sightseer Lounges to replace PPCs in a pinch.) And we *have* had some major wrecks of Superliners recently (Nevada, for example).
> 
> This shows that the really tight rolling stock situation is specifically with the Heritage equipment, and to a lesser extent the Viewliners and Amfleets. There will be enough Superliners for the current services for a while yet. It would be more valuable to exercise options on the CAF order and get more Viewliners.
> 
> ----
> 
> However, there have also been shortages of P42s; the Texas Eagle, which should have two, is routinely sent out with one, and it's pretty common for other trains to be short an engine. The P40 rehabs don't seem to have been sufficient to alleviate the shortages. F59PHIs have been pressed into long-distance service on occasion.
> 
> For the western long-distance trains, the motive power situation is probably more urgent than the rolling stock situation. Diesel locomotives have a shorter lifespan than rolling stock in any case.
> 
> Amtrak expects its diesels to have a commercial life (when you *should* replace them for maximum profit) of 20 years. 30 years is the standard depreciation period or "useful life" for diesels, and they really don't last much longer than 30 years if they're heavily used. Some other organizations consider diesels to only have a useful life of 20 years, and try to replace them after 10 years! Theoretically they could be gutted and repowered (like the AEM electrics were), but most of the cost is in the parts which have to be replaced, and you generally want to redesign the entire layout if you're replacing the engine. Companies which advertise rebuilding of engines only promise to extend the lifespan to 50 years...
> 
> The first P42s are going to be 30 years old in 2016; the P32AC-DMs will turn 30 in 2015; the P40s turned 30 in 2013; the P32s in 2011. The F59PHIs are only a little bit newer and will turn 30 in 2018. Amtrak's diesel locomotives are going to be dying soon, and the situation is rather urgent.
> 
> The multistate order for new locomotives is supposed to start delivering in 2016, but it's for a fairly small number of locomotives. Amtrak has a large number of options on this order and hopefully Amtrak will be able to exercise them.
> 
> (By contrast, Amtrak considers passenger cars to have a commercial life of 30 years and a useful life of 40 years, but it's quite straightforward to keep them going substantially longer than that, particularly if they get a mid-life refurbishment; the Heritage cars are only now falling apart after 60 years, and were doing pretty well at age 50.
> 
> Amtrak considers electric locomotives to have a commercial life of 25 years and a useful life of 30 years, but other organizations expect electric locomotives to last 40 years or more. Electrics are more durable.
> 
> Switchers have light duty cycles and low top speeds so they last much longer than road diesels. I'm not entirely sure of all the reasons, but fast, high-horsepower road diesel locomotives seem to have the shortest lifespan of anything on the tracks.)
Click to expand...

Hopefully, if the Viewliner IIs pass testing without major problems, they can accelerate the production. They really seem to be behind schedule. (wasn't the order placed in 2010?)

I just hope that the delays don't come back to bite them. I wonder what the next steps will be after the current Viewliner II order is completed. If I remember correctly, the Amfleets are getting pretty old too. Would they order Viewliner II coaches, or a new design (anything but brand new versions of the current Amfleet design; I can't think of anyone who thinks that those cars are any fun to ride it)? I have a feeling though that the Amfleets are a pretty low priority, and will be used until they fall apart. Amtrak's next major project seems to be an Acela replacement.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PerRock said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can describe what I know.
> 
> - When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.
> 
> - When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.
> 
> - Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.
> 
> - Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often *substituted for *the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".
> 
> - Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.
> 
> 
> 
> In all my years following Amtrak's doings I've never heard of a PPC being replaced for a SSL. In fact I think currently Amtrak doesn't have enough PPCs for regular service on the SL, and if they do have enough for regular service, there are no spare. It is much more common to find a SSL replacing an PPC on the SL then a PPC elsewhere in the system.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

I think you misread his post. He was saying the the SSL was used in place of the PPC when needed.


----------



## neroden

PerRock said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can describe what I know.
> 
> - When a Heritage dining car fails, Amtrak presses an Amfleet II cafe into service.
> 
> - When a Viewliner sleeping car fails, Amtrak often runs a car short and reschedules people.
> 
> - Horizons are sometimes substituted for Amfleets on short notice.
> 
> - Superliner Sightseer Lounge is often substituted for the Heritage "Pacific Parlour Cars".
> 
> - Amfleet and Heritage cafes (!!!) are sometimes substituted for failed Heritage baggage cars.
> 
> 
> 
> In all my years following Amtrak's doings I've never heard of a PPC being replaced for a SSL.
Click to expand...

You read my statement backwards: a bad-ordered PPC is taken off the train, and a second SSL is put on the train.


----------



## neroden

William said:


> Hopefully, if the Viewliner IIs pass testing without major problems, they can accelerate the production. They really seem to be behind schedule. (wasn't the order placed in 2010?)
> 
> I just hope that the delays don't come back to bite them. I wonder what the next steps will be after the current Viewliner II order is completed. If I remember correctly, the Amfleets are getting pretty old too. Would they order Viewliner II coaches, or a new design (anything but brand new versions of the current Amfleet design; I can't think of anyone who thinks that those cars are any fun to ride it)? I have a feeling though that the Amfleets are a pretty low priority, and will be used until they fall apart. Amtrak's next major project seems to be an Acela replacement.


According to the last version of Amtrak's "Fleet Strategy Plan", which was issued in 2012:

- the top priority in rolling stock was the things currently on order: the new Viewliners (to replace Heritage cars, and because extra Viewliner sleeper space pays for itself)

- the next priority was the Acela IIs (because extra Acela space also pays for itself, and they'll be substantially longer than the existing Acelas). The existing Acelas will probably stay in service rather than being retired immediately.

- the next priority was Amfleet II replacement, because they have higher mileage than Amfleet Is, are the second-oldest, and there weren't enough of them to start with

- followed by Amfleet I replacement, because they are the oldest (after the Heritage cars)

In earlier versions of the fleet strategy plan, Amfleet I replacement came before Amfleet II replacement (because Amfleet Is are older).

Superliners are way back in the queue, there's no doubt about that; Amtrak clearly considers Amfleet replacement to be a much higher priority.

The Fleet Strategy plan listed priorities separately for rolling stock and for locomotives, so it's not clear whether "Amfleet II replacement" is a higher priority than "P42 replacement". I'd personally guess that P42 replacement is a higher priority, but it's just a guess.

Amtrak claimed it would issue a new fleet strategy plan yearly, but obviously they didn't.


----------



## PerRock

jeeze I'm sorry, I'll go get a degree in english language next time.


----------



## neroden

PerRock said:


> jeeze I'm sorry, I'll go get a degree in english language next time.


No worries, we all get mixed up sometimes.


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


What exactly is the purpose of having different springs? Doesn't that lead to an assymetric ride?


----------



## JayPea

The one time I rode the CS with a bad-ordered PPC, it was replaced by a CCC rather than a SSL.


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues. Though there will still be some complex stuff to test: such as the HVAC.


Neverthelsss, Murphy is often in the details and equipment can behave quite differently "out of car" than when set up and configured in the real setting. Thionk of transmission of vibrations, behavior of behind the scenes wiring and plumbing etc.


----------



## neroden

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly is the purpose of having different springs? Doesn't that lead to an assymetric ride?
Click to expand...

I think the idea is that baggage is heavier than people...


----------



## cirdan

neroden said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neorden is right. The springs are different. The heftier springs are painted red I tbelieve, from what I recall reading.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly is the purpose of having different springs? Doesn't that lead to an assymetric ride?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think the idea is that baggage is heavier than people...
Click to expand...

Ok, got you, so it's just the baggage cars that have this, not all Viewliners.


----------



## Ryan

Yes. Perhaps the bag-dorms on the bag end of the car as well.


----------



## jis

RyanS said:


> Yes. Perhaps the bag-dorms on the bag end of the car as well.


Yes.
The heftier springs are colored red, so you can identify them immediately.


----------



## Guest

neroden said:


> The roomette, bathroom, and shower modules have presumably already been tested "out of car", and aren't very different from the Viewliner I designs, so they shouldn't raise major issues.


The Viewliner I's had bathroom modules? I thought these were indeed a brand new design.


----------



## R30A

The Viewliner 2 restroom modules are very similar to the Superliner 1 refurbishment restroom modules


----------



## Dutchrailnut

for person stating the Genesis as almost 30 years old ??? not quite

all GE genesis were build 1992 till 2001 making oldest P40 only 21 years old.


----------



## neroden

I guess I was off by 10 years -- not subtracting properly!

:blush:

So Amtrak can probably function with the Genesis locos for about 10 more years before they start falling apart. That still means it would be really good to start getting new orders in about 5 years.


----------



## battalion51

Keep in mind though there is already a vendor and a model selected for the beginnings of the P-42 replacement project, Siemens with the Charger line of engines. Yes, I know there is some legal wrangling over this since EMD is claiming the bidding process was skewed by the folks in Illinois who vetted the bids on behalf of the consortium of states and Amtrak. Yes, I know nothing says that Amtrak will exercise the option for the additional 225 units that are present on the order. However, if the Chargers have a smooth startup like the Sprinters have had, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see those options be exercised.


----------



## William W.

I've seen concept images of the Charger locomotives. They are pretty cool looking. I wonder how much of an improvement they will be over the current GE Genesis locomotives.


----------



## Amtrak172

neroden said:


> William said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, if the Viewliner IIs pass testing without major problems, they can accelerate the production. They really seem to be behind schedule. (wasn't the order placed in 2010?)
> 
> I just hope that the delays don't come back to bite them. I wonder what the next steps will be after the current Viewliner II order is completed. If I remember correctly, the Amfleets are getting pretty old too. Would they order Viewliner II coaches, or a new design (anything but brand new versions of the current Amfleet design; I can't think of anyone who thinks that those cars are any fun to ride it)? I have a feeling though that the Amfleets are a pretty low priority, and will be used until they fall apart. Amtrak's next major project seems to be an Acela replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the last version of Amtrak's "Fleet Strategy Plan", which was issued in 2012:
> - the top priority in rolling stock was the things currently on order: the new Viewliners (to replace Heritage cars, and because extra Viewliner sleeper space pays for itself)
> 
> - the next priority was the Acela IIs (because extra Acela space also pays for itself, and they'll be substantially longer than the existing Acelas). The existing Acelas will probably stay in service rather than being retired immediately.
> 
> - the next priority was Amfleet II replacement, because they have higher mileage than Amfleet Is, are the second-oldest, and there weren't enough of them to start with
> 
> - followed by Amfleet I replacement, because they are the oldest (after the Heritage cars)
> 
> In earlier versions of the fleet strategy plan, Amfleet I replacement came before Amfleet II replacement (because Amfleet Is are older).
> 
> Superliners are way back in the queue, there's no doubt about that; Amtrak clearly considers Amfleet replacement to be a much higher priority.
> 
> The Fleet Strategy plan listed priorities separately for rolling stock and for locomotives, so it's not clear whether "Amfleet II replacement" is a higher priority than "P42 replacement". I'd personally guess that P42 replacement is a higher priority, but it's just a guess.
> 
> Amtrak claimed it would issue a new fleet strategy plan yearly, but obviously they didn't.
Click to expand...


I can't see why Amtrak would even want to replace the Superliner's, even though there may be many reasons. Is it more than likely that Amtrak will be replacing the Amfleet's?

Amtrak172


----------



## Green Maned Lion

They want to replace them so they don't run 30 years past the end of their planned useful life.


----------



## cuppb001

Not to take this off topic too much but in line with other poster's comments about motive power, the Genesis are nearing retirement age. The F40's which were arguably better locomotives (Not trying to start an EMD vs GE discussion) were retired after 20 years of service with Amtrak and some were less than that. Think of 406 (Built 1988) BNSF has stored and even sold some of its Dash-8s. NS has retired a few of their Dash 8s as well. It was argued that when Amtrak retired the F40s (some say prematurely) the comment was made that an Amtrak locomotive is worked harder than your average freight locomotive, travelling more distance and turned very quickly. Trains did an article on the life of a P42 recently which brought this up.


----------



## neroden

The Metroliner cab cars are now 46. The earliest Amfleet Is are 39. The latest Amfleet IIs are 31. The latest Superliner Is are 33. (Superliner IIs and Viewliners have quite a lot of life left in them.)

Back in the 1970s, Amtrak was running Hi-Levels built in 1956. Most of these were replaced by 1981 (age 25), with the last apart from the PPCs being phased out in 1994 (age 38).

When Amtrak first got its Heritage fleet in 1971, the oldest cars appear to have been built in 1946 -- 25 years old.

*Amtrak's fleet now is much older than the Heritage fleet which Amtrak inherited in 1971.* Well, at least there's no need to convert from steam heat to electric heat, but a lot of other elements are archaic and could be done a lot better now, from the lighting to the HVAC. The HVAC is completely obsolete on the Amfleets and Superliner Is at least.

The designs are also obsolete. The entire Metroliner/Amfleet profile was a horrible idea driven by desire to imitate airplanes, and wastes a lot of space. The Superliner I sleeper design has elements from another era, such as the "coat closet", which were eliminated already by the Superliner II.

And even though the Budd designs have proven to be very solid, they do wear out -- and these cars have been driven *hard*, under very intense service patterns, especially on the "long-distance" routes.

Rolling stock replacement is a pretty high priority. Amtrak has stated repeatedly that they would like to replace the Amfleets as soon as they can -- but given that there are over 600 of them, an expensive replacement project, it may be a while. But it would not be good to have a lot of 50-year-old Amfleets still running intensive services 10 years from now.

In 1970, US railroads were not, for the most part, running cars built in 1920. (In Britain, I have been told that BR was running some rolling stock that old in 1970 -- but this was due to repeated wars and austerity programs.) Amtrak does not want to be running Amfleet Is in 2025, or Superliner Is in 2031.


----------



## Ziv

neroden, as late as 1994 the UK/England was using carriages that must have dated back to the 40's. One coach that I traveled in actually had compartments that seated 6 in a 3 facing 3 pattern. The odd thing was that each compartment had two doors, one to the coach passageway and one that opened out onto the train station platform. They were very cool to ride in, I think they were really old business class because the seats were very comfortable and relatively plush.

On edit: The funky carriages were on the Waterloo to Exeter route if memory serves. I think it is the West England Main Line, but it seems like it had a different name in the late 80's and ealy 90's.


----------



## William W.

cuppb001 said:


> Not to take this off topic too much but in line with other poster's comments about motive power, the Genesis are nearing retirement age. The F40's which were arguably better locomotives (Not trying to start an EMD vs GE discussion) were retired after 20 years of service with Amtrak and some were less than that. Think of 406 (Built 1988) BNSF has stored and even sold some of its Dash-8s. NS has retired a few of their Dash 8s as well. It was argued that when Amtrak retired the F40s (some say prematurely) the comment was made that an Amtrak locomotive is worked harder than your average freight locomotive, travelling more distance and turned very quickly. Trains did an article on the life of a P42 recently which brought this up.


METRA still uses the F40 as its primary locomotive. I know that commuter rail isn't completely comparable to Amtrak, but how close were Amtrak's F40s to wearing out anyway? If they still had life in them, I wonder if they could have shifted them to short distance routes and used the P42s on LD routes. Only replacing the F40s as needed.

My general (perhaps inaccurate) impression is that Amtrak isn't very good at getting all the use that it can out of its equipment (maybe less so now, but definitely in the past).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Metra runs their equipment a lot less, at lower speeds, with superior maintenance. I know people who extol the heck out of Toyotas Camry. They put 250k miles on it driving to and from work mostly on the highway. I know some taxi drivers who think they are utter garbage, unable to eke out 100k miles out of the things on the streets of NY as cabs, their engines, batteries, CV joints, shocks and even their basic body structure heavily compromised by use.

Contrarywise, highway commuters usually don't have much good to say about Ford Crown Victorias, the staple New York cab, practically only NY cab from 1996 until 2011.

Amtrak ran and undermaintained the F40 until it's fleet was beyond done. Strasbourg Railroad has some pre 1900 wooden stock. They have ran them for 50 years. What a waste that all those railroads ditched them. Strasbourg proves that wooden cars can still be on the road 120 years later. Why doesn't Amtrak have 120 year old rolling stock?

Give me a break.


----------



## PRR 60

Green Maned Lion said:


> Metra runs their equipment a lot less, at lower speeds, with superior maintenance. I know people who extol the heck out of Toyotas Camry. They put 250k miles on it driving to and from work mostly on the highway. I know some taxi drivers who think they are utter garbage, unable to eke out 100k miles out of the things on the streets of NY as cabs, their engines, batteries, CV joints, shocks and even their basic body structure heavily compromised by use.
> 
> Contrarywise, highway commuters usually don't have much good to say about Ford Crown Victorias, the staple New York cab, practically only NY cab from 1996 until 2011.
> 
> Amtrak ran and undermaintained the F40 until it's fleet was beyond done. Strasbourg Railroad has some pre 1900 wooden stock. They have ran them for 50 years. What a waste that all those railroads ditched them. Strasbourg proves that wooden cars can still be on the road 120 years later. Why doesn't Amtrak have 120 year old rolling stock?
> 
> Give me a break.


Strasburg Railroad


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I'm typing on a phone.


----------



## MikefromCrete

There's no real comparison between commuter locomotives and Amtrak's. Amtrak runs the wheels off its locomotives, more than even the freight railroads. Commuter trains run short distances and much of the equipment is idle and weekends and middays on weekdays.

By the way, speaking of old equipment, in the early 1970's, the Illinois Central and Rock Island were both still running commuter equipment made in the mid-1920's. The Highliners built in the late 60's, early to mid 1970's for use on the IC suburban lines are just now being replaced by Metra, so 40-50 year old equipment is not unheard of in transit circles. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it has happened!


----------



## cuppb001

Amtrak in my opinion could've held onto some of the F40 fleet but they didn't and that's a fact. They say that it was due to keeping parts commonality but I do know in the east, Amtrak occasionally substitutes heavily rebuilt GP38H-3s which mechanically are very similar to the F40s. Though even the few commuter railroads that bought a few of Amtrak's retired fleet decided to not use them. California received a few and scrapped all but one. Metra's predecessor bought new F40C locomotives which also were considered retired prematurely by Metra, with all but three being scrapped completely by Metro East. Each railroad makes their own decisions about how, when, and why to retire a locomotive or passenger car fleet. While on the outside it may appear to be a strange move there are often reasons that we as casual observers probably do not know or understand.


----------



## William W.

That was the one thing that I hadn't considered. If I remember correctly, Amtrak inherited a bunch of equipment hadn't been maintained properly, and in a lot of cases, did a lot of maintenance deferring itself. I know that the F40s were ordered newly by Amtrak, so any deferred maintenance is their fault. I've heard it said on here before though that most passenger locomotives have a useful life, if well maintained, of 20-25 years, so perhaps it really was that they were worn out and in need of replacement.

I'm relatively new to railroad stuff, so I don't know everything haha.


----------



## neroden

Ziv said:


> neroden, as late as 1994 the UK/England was using carriages that must have dated back to the 40's. One coach that I traveled in actually had compartments that seated 6 in a 3 facing 3 pattern. The odd thing was that each compartment had two doors, one to the coach passageway and one that opened out onto the train station platform.


Ah, these are what were known as "corridor coaches". The oldest railway carriages had compartments across the width of the train and NO PASSAGEWAY (you were trapped in the compartment for the entire journey) -- the "corridor" was a later addition. They had "First", "Second", and "Third" class compartments originally, though "Second" was eliminated in the late 19th century, and in the 1950s "Third" was finally renamed "Second".
Compartment designs were already becoming obsolete in the 1940s, replaced by "open saloons", which are the design all coaches have today. In Britain, however, they had not created any new designs for coaches during WWII, and as a result, they kept building coaches to this design in the late 1940s & early 1950s.



> They were very cool to ride in, I think they were really old business class because the seats were very comfortable and relatively plush.


Could have been first class, though some British railways had *very* nice third class carriages.



> On edit: The funky carriages were on the Waterloo to Exeter route if memory serves. I think it is the West England Main Line, but it seems like it had a different name in the late 80's and ealy 90's.


So you can run 45-year-old coaches... but it's still not a good idea to be running them on *all your routes*.

In many railways (including British Rail), the old rolling stock is "cascaded": the oldest rolling stock runs on the least busy lines with the least heavy duty cycles, while the most intensive and busy service gets the newest rolling stock. A coach starts in constant service running all the time on the high-speed mainline, moves on to a less busy secondary line with more downtime for repairs, and eventually ends up being pulled out only for holidays, before final retirement.

Amtrak badly needs a new fleet of Viewliner coaches and lounges to replace the extremely-heavily-used Amfleet IIs. Once that happens, the Amfleet IIs could probably still be used in lighter duty service for some years, for corridors with more "sitting still time". Heck, Amtrak may keep some Heritage baggage cars for Thanksgiving overflow. But that doesn't change the fact that new cars are needed for regular service.


----------



## gaspeamtrak

We are way off the topic again!!!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

_*Viewliner II *_Coaches would be nice though the Upper Level window tier would likely have to be blocked off to allow for luggage racks and to minimize direct sunlight from causing problems with glare and such.


----------



## neroden

I want to see a Viewliner II observation/lounge/cafe car. They would be such an improvement over the Amfleet cafes.


----------



## William W.

neroden said:


> I want to see a Viewliner II observation/lounge/cafe car. They would be such an improvement over the Amfleet cafes.


Agreed. The Amfleet cafe cars work well on SD trains, but are completely inadequate for a LD train. I wonder if they could take the Viewliner design and make a SSL type configuration with it (with ceiling windows and chairs facing the windows). Then the Eastern LD trains would finally have parity with the Western trains. Whenever I take an eastern train, I feel trapped within my room, since the cafe car runs of of space quickly, and is quite frankly inferior to my roomette for sightseeing purposes.

Until the heritage baggage cars and diners are replaced, and a sufficient number of sleepers are in place, I don't see this happening, unfortunately.

Ideally, Eastern LD trains should eventually be all Viewliner, just as Western trains are all Superliner. It'll probably take the Amfleets literally disintegrating (that would be a good day, haha) from old age for this to happen though.


----------



## Ryan

A little bird told me Amtrak was picking up another car/cars today.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Was the little bird a Cardinal?


----------



## William W.

Hmm, if I'm understanding you correctly, perhaps that explains the 2nd Viewliner on the Cardinal (51) today?


----------



## MikefromCrete

William W. said:


> Hmm, if I'm understanding you correctly, perhaps that explains the 2nd Viewliner on the Cardinal (51) today?


You mean, somehow Amtrak snuck a Viewliner sleeper from Elmira to NYP without being spotted by railfans? Unlikely. Or is the Viewliner baggage being tested on the Cardinal? Posts on the Cardinal topic indicated that it was a Viewliner sleeper, which, of course, might be ferried to Beech Grove.


----------



## William W.

MikefromCrete said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, if I'm understanding you correctly, perhaps that explains the 2nd Viewliner on the Cardinal (51) today?
> 
> 
> 
> You mean, somehow Amtrak snuck a Viewliner sleeper from Elmira to NYP without being spotted by railfans? Unlikely. Or is the Viewliner baggage being tested on the Cardinal? Posts on the Cardinal topic indicated that it was a Viewliner sleeper, which, of course, might be ferried to Beech Grove.
Click to expand...

This is what City of Miami said on the "Odd Consist for the Cardinal" thread:

"Today's Cardinal #51 had the now customary consist mentioned, discussed and confirmed above, as well as A SECOND VIEWLINER. Nonetheless, Amtrak says there are 'only' 4 more roomettes available at the price of $450 from Staunton to Chicago.

What appeared to be passengers detrained from both sleepers so it didn't look like a deadhead. Passengers also got on and off the coaches at either end of the Cafe car. They also loaded 8 bags of ice onto the Cafe car which I have not noticed before. Party Train? :help: "


----------



## Ryan

MikefromCrete said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, if I'm understanding you correctly, perhaps that explains the 2nd Viewliner on the Cardinal (51) today?
> 
> 
> 
> You mean, somehow Amtrak snuck a Viewliner sleeper from Elmira to NYP without being spotted by railfans? Unlikely. Or is the Viewliner baggage being tested on the Cardinal? Posts on the Cardinal topic indicated that it was a Viewliner sleeper, which, of course, might be ferried to Beech Grove.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that would be pretty much impossible.
I was talking about taking delivery of a new one.


----------



## Amtrak172

William W. said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see a Viewliner II observation/lounge/cafe car. They would be such an improvement over the Amfleet cafes.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. The Amfleet cafe cars work well on SD trains, but are completely inadequate for a LD train. I wonder if they could take the Viewliner design and make a SSL type configuration with it (with ceiling windows and chairs facing the windows). Then the Eastern LD trains would finally have parity with the Western trains. Whenever I take an eastern train, I feel trapped within my room, since the cafe car runs of of space quickly, and is quite frankly inferior to my roomette for sightseeing purposes.
> Until the heritage baggage cars and diners are replaced, and a sufficient number of sleepers are in place, I don't see this happening, unfortunately.
> 
> Ideally, Eastern LD trains should eventually be all Viewliner, just as Western trains are all Superliner. It'll probably take the Amfleets literally disintegrating (that would be a good day, haha) from old age for this to happen though.
Click to expand...


I actually like the idea of Viewliner sightseer lounges. This would be a good thing especially for the Crescent as it goes over Lake Pontchartrain. The way things seem to be going, Pretty soon, Amtrak's single-level LD trains will be all Viewliner consists.

Amtrak172


----------



## William W.

Amtrak172 said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see a Viewliner II observation/lounge/cafe car. They would be such an improvement over the Amfleet cafes.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. The Amfleet cafe cars work well on SD trains, but are completely inadequate for a LD train. I wonder if they could take the Viewliner design and make a SSL type configuration with it (with ceiling windows and chairs facing the windows). Then the Eastern LD trains would finally have parity with the Western trains. Whenever I take an eastern train, I feel trapped within my room, since the cafe car runs of of space quickly, and is quite frankly inferior to my roomette for sightseeing purposes.
> Until the heritage baggage cars and diners are replaced, and a sufficient number of sleepers are in place, I don't see this happening, unfortunately.
> 
> Ideally, Eastern LD trains should eventually be all Viewliner, just as Western trains are all Superliner. It'll probably take the Amfleets literally disintegrating (that would be a good day, haha) from old age for this to happen though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually like the idea of Viewliner sightseer lounges. This would be a good thing especially for the Crescent as it goes over Lake Pontchartrain. The way things seem to be going, Pretty soon, Amtrak's single-level LD trains will be all Viewliner consists.
> 
> Amtrak172
Click to expand...

I will relish that day. A Viewliner SSL would be great for the Cardinal too. They could also look at putting one on the Adirondack.


----------



## Ryan

That will be great, but it won't be "pretty soon" for any reasonable value of "soon".


----------



## Amtrak172

I would imagine that it wouldn't be for at least 4-5 years because if their looking for those new Siemens locomotives. If Amtrak wants to launch Amtrak America with its own paint scheme for the single-level LD trains, why repaint the Amfleets if they're planning on replacing them? Thats my opinion. That and all Viewliner single-level LD train consists would make Amtrak's trains look good

Amtrak172


----------



## PerRock

William W. said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see a Viewliner II observation/lounge/cafe car. They would be such an improvement over the Amfleet cafes.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. The Amfleet cafe cars work well on SD trains, but are completely inadequate for a LD train. I wonder if they could take the Viewliner design and make a SSL type configuration with it (with ceiling windows and chairs facing the windows). Then the Eastern LD trains would finally have parity with the Western trains. Whenever I take an eastern train, I feel trapped within my room, since the cafe car runs of of space quickly, and is quite frankly inferior to my roomette for sightseeing purposes.
> Until the heritage baggage cars and diners are replaced, and a sufficient number of sleepers are in place, I don't see this happening, unfortunately.
> 
> Ideally, Eastern LD trains should eventually be all Viewliner, just as Western trains are all Superliner. It'll probably take the Amfleets literally disintegrating (that would be a good day, haha) from old age for this to happen though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I actually like the idea of Viewliner sightseer lounges. This would be a good thing especially for the Crescent as it goes over Lake Pontchartrain. The way things seem to be going, Pretty soon, Amtrak's single-level LD trains will be all Viewliner consists.
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will relish that day. A Viewliner SSL would be great for the Cardinal too. They could also look at putting one on the Adirondack.
Click to expand...

I've been working on designing one, for my own use. I might make it a 3D model for Trainz. I'll do some digging and see if I can't find an old picture somewhere.

Peter


----------



## Green Maned Lion

RyanS said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, if I'm understanding you correctly, perhaps that explains the 2nd Viewliner on the Cardinal (51) today?
> 
> 
> 
> You mean, somehow Amtrak snuck a Viewliner sleeper from Elmira to NYP without being spotted by railfans? Unlikely. Or is the Viewliner baggage being tested on the Cardinal? Posts on the Cardinal topic indicated that it was a Viewliner sleeper, which, of course, might be ferried to Beech Grove.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, that would be pretty much impossible.
> I was talking about taking delivery of a new one.
Click to expand...

And I was just making a bad pun.


----------



## Ryan

New Viewliners are SERIOUS BUSINESS. 

(obviously this didn't happen today - perhaps next week)


----------



## Amtrak172

PerRock said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see a Viewliner II observation/lounge/cafe car. They would be such an improvement over the Amfleet cafes.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. The Amfleet cafe cars work well on SD trains, but are completely inadequate for a LD train. I wonder if they could take the Viewliner design and make a SSL type configuration with it (with ceiling windows and chairs facing the windows). Then the Eastern LD trains would finally have parity with the Western trains. Whenever I take an eastern train, I feel trapped within my room, since the cafe car runs of of space quickly, and is quite frankly inferior to my roomette for sightseeing purposes.
> Until the heritage baggage cars and diners are replaced, and a sufficient number of sleepers are in place, I don't see this happening, unfortunately.
> 
> Ideally, Eastern LD trains should eventually be all Viewliner, just as Western trains are all Superliner. It'll probably take the Amfleets literally disintegrating (that would be a good day, haha) from old age for this to happen though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I actually like the idea of Viewliner sightseer lounges. This would be a good thing especially for the Crescent as it goes over Lake Pontchartrain. The way things seem to be going, Pretty soon, Amtrak's single-level LD trains will be all Viewliner consists.
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will relish that day. A Viewliner SSL would be great for the Cardinal too. They could also look at putting one on the Adirondack.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've been working on designing one, for my own use. I might make it a 3D model for Trainz. I'll do some digging and see if I can't find an old picture somewhere.
> Peter
Click to expand...


Can you please make some Amfleet II's in Phase IVb ? Amfleet I and II cafés too? I can assure you that they will be popular. Will you becoming out with locomotives to go with your Tri-Rail and SunRail packs?

Amtrak172


----------



## afigg

Amtrak172 said:


> I would imagine that it wouldn't be for at least 4-5 years because if their looking for those new Siemens locomotives. If Amtrak wants to launch Amtrak America with its own paint scheme for the single-level LD trains, why repaint the Amfleets if they're planning on replacing them? Thats my opinion. That and all Viewliner single-level LD train consists would make Amtrak's trains look good


Repainting the Amfleet IIs or, more likely putting new vinyl stripes on is not that big a deal costwise. Unless Congress in the next 2-3 years suddenly provides Amtrak with a lot of funding to buy replacement rolling stock, an order of Viewliner IIs to replace the Amfleet IIs in the near term is unlikely. Amtrak's next major equipment order will be new HSR trainsets for the NEC as the HSR trainsets will generate enough additional revenue to pay off the loan. After that order is underway, funding and placing an order with Siemens for a batch of P-42 locomotive replacements may take priority.

As for a sightseer lounge Viewliner II, i would be surprised if such cars were ordered and built. But a Viewliner II replacement for the Amfleet II diner/cafe car would be a considerable improvement with the dual windows. Start with the Viewliner II diner car, but shrink the kitchen area on one end and put in more tables or observation chairs with small side tables. More cost effective than adding another non-revenue car to the consist.


----------



## William W.

afigg said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine that it wouldn't be for at least 4-5 years because if their looking for those new Siemens locomotives. If Amtrak wants to launch Amtrak America with its own paint scheme for the single-level LD trains, why repaint the Amfleets if they're planning on replacing them? Thats my opinion. That and all Viewliner single-level LD train consists would make Amtrak's trains look good
> 
> 
> 
> Repainting the Amfleet IIs or, more likely putting new vinyl stripes on is not that big a deal costwise. Unless Congress in the next 2-3 years suddenly provides Amtrak with a lot of funding to buy replacement rolling stock, an order of Viewliner IIs to replace the Amfleet IIs in the near term is unlikely. Amtrak's next major equipment order will be new HSR trainsets for the NEC as the HSR trainsets will generate enough additional revenue to pay off the loan. After that order is underway, funding and placing an order with Siemens for a batch of P-42 locomotive replacements may take priority.
> 
> As for a sightseer lounge Viewliner II, i would be surprised if such cars were ordered and built. But a Viewliner II replacement for the Amfleet II diner/cafe car would be a considerable improvement with the dual windows. Start with the Viewliner II diner car, but shrink the kitchen area on one end and put in more tables or observation chairs with small side tables. More cost effective than adding another non-revenue car to the consist.
Click to expand...

I would assume that a Viewliner SSL would also have cafe service, just as the Superliner SSLs do. Trying to combine a diner and lounge into one car seems like a bad idea to me (as the Diner-Lites have shown).


----------



## Amtrak172

afigg said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would imagine that it wouldn't be for at least 4-5 years because if their looking for those new Siemens locomotives. If Amtrak wants to launch Amtrak America with its own paint scheme for the single-level LD trains, why repaint the Amfleets if they're planning on replacing them? Thats my opinion. That and all Viewliner single-level LD train consists would make Amtrak's trains look good
> 
> 
> 
> Repainting the Amfleet IIs or, more likely putting new vinyl stripes on is not that big a deal costwise. Unless Congress in the next 2-3 years suddenly provides Amtrak with a lot of funding to buy replacement rolling stock, an order of Viewliner IIs to replace the Amfleet IIs in the near term is unlikely. Amtrak's next major equipment order will be new HSR trainsets for the NEC as the HSR trainsets will generate enough additional revenue to pay off the loan. After that order is underway, funding and placing an order with Siemens for a batch of P-42 locomotive replacements may take priority.
> As for a sightseer lounge Viewliner II, i would be surprised if such cars were ordered and built. But a Viewliner II replacement for the Amfleet II diner/cafe car would be a considerable improvement with the dual windows. Start with the Viewliner II diner car, but shrink the kitchen area on one end and put in more tables or observation chairs with small side tables. More cost effective than adding another non-revenue car to the consist.
Click to expand...


Good. I'm happy about this because I don't want to see the Amfleets become retired.

Amtrak172


----------



## PerRock

Amtrak172 said:


> Can you please make some Amfleet II's in Phase IVb ? Amfleet I and II cafés too? I can assure you that they will be popular. Will you becoming out with locomotives to go with your Tri-Rail and SunRail packs?
> 
> Amtrak172


I'm not a modeler so at the moment I can only put textures on things other people have made. So in short the answer to all of your questions is, No.

In the future if you have questions about anything to do with Amtrak Trainz Group, please use our forums.

peter ( I feel like you already asked me this exact same question)


----------



## Amtrak172

PerRock said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you please make some Amfleet II's in Phase IVb ? Amfleet I and II cafés too? I can assure you that they will be popular. Will you becoming out with locomotives to go with your Tri-Rail and SunRail packs?
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a modeler so at the moment I can only put textures on things other people have made. So in short the answer to all of your questions is, No.
> In the future if you have questions about anything to do with Amtrak Trainz Group, please use our forums.
> 
> peter ( I feel like you already asked me this exact same question)
Click to expand...


Ok, thanks

Amtrak172


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> Unless Congress in the next 2-3 years suddenly provides Amtrak with a lot of funding to buy replacement rolling stock, an order of Viewliner IIs to replace the Amfleet IIs in the near term is unlikely. Amtrak's next major equipment order will be new HSR trainsets for the NEC as the HSR trainsets will generate enough additional revenue to pay off the loan. After that order is underway, funding and placing an order with Siemens for a batch of P-42 locomotive replacements may take priority.


All depends on what you mean by the near term. After the HSR trainsets (probably ordered 1 or 2 years from now) and the P-42 replacements (probably 4 or 5 years from now), and possibly options on the other orders which are in production, Amfleet replacements are the top priority. I'd guess Amtrak will be pushing very hard for the Amfleet replacement order in the next 10 years, before 2025.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> All depends on what you mean by the near term. After the HSR trainsets (probably ordered 1 or 2 years from now) and the P-42 replacements (probably 4 or 5 years from now), and possibly options on the other orders which are in production, Amfleet replacements are the top priority. I'd guess Amtrak will be pushing very hard for the Amfleet replacement order in the next 10 years, before 2025.


By near term, I mean in the next 3-4 years. Any planning beyond that is subject to major changes depending on what happens in Congress and what happens *to* Congress in the next 2 election cycles. The updated Fleet Strategy plan in the FY14 budget and FY14-FY18 Five Year financial plan document has acquisition of new single level cars starting in FY19 and diesel locomotives in FY2024. But I think those dates are in the table as placeholders only. Circumstances, such as problems maintaining enough reliable P-42s, availability of production lines, and federal funding will determine what gets ordered next.
The updated average age and mileage of rolling stock table lists the 145 Amfleet IIs as now having reached 6 million miles for average mileage. More than the Superliners and the Amfleet Is. So the Amfleet IIs have seen heavy use. It would be useful to place a follow-on order with CAF for, say, 180 Viewliner IIs in LD coach and food car configurations, but financing that order is obviously difficult.


----------



## BrianPR3

time to bump this thread, a pick up train arrived yesterday in Elmira, NY

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1093140474059501&set=gm.10152569217218781&type=1


----------



## William W.

BrianPR3 said:


> time to bump this thread, a pick up train arrived yesterday in Elmira, NY
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1093140474059501&set=gm.10152569217218781&type=1


The link is dead. Can you post the photo here directly?


----------



## PerRock

William W. said:


> BrianPR3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> time to bump this thread, a pick up train arrived yesterday in Elmira, NY
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1093140474059501&set=gm.10152569217218781&type=1
> 
> 
> 
> The link is dead. Can you post the photo here directly?
Click to expand...

I believe you have to be part of the NEC Facebook group to see it. The picture isn't much, just basically the same train that went to pick up the baggage car before. There is a picture on the group of CAF's switcher moving a Viewliner Diner out of the yard.

Try this link for the actual car: https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/q79/s720x720/10533126_1093143974059151_1752509573015189290_n.jpg

peter


----------



## neroden

So, this is kind of exciting. Amtrak seems to be keeping this under serious wraps, but if there's a dining car going out for testing today, that's great news. Here's hoping everything goes smoothly...


----------



## Ryan

I don't think they're going out until after the holiday.


----------



## afigg

RyanS said:


> I don't think they're going out until after the holiday.


They might move the Viewliner(s) over the weekend. Amtrak is not a weekday only operation. Whether it would be a move to Albany for initial inspection there or to somewhere on the NEC, we will find out when the next set of equipment is moved out of Elmira.

Where is the 61000 baggage car these days? I have not seen a post about it in some time.


----------



## NE933

It was photographed in Race St. yard in Phiily, coupled to a Metroliner converted to Catenary Inspection car.


----------



## William W.

The day that the new Viewliner diners appear on the Cardinal, I will probably throw a party. They are SORELY needed.


----------



## Ryan

afigg said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they're going out until after the holiday.
> 
> 
> 
> They might move the Viewliner(s) over the weekend. Amtrak is not a weekday only operation.
Click to expand...

That would be after the holiday, right?


----------



## Amtrak172

When will the Viewliner II's enter revenue service? What's going on with the production of them?

Amtrak172


----------



## William W.

Amtrak172 said:


> When will the Viewliner II's enter revenue service? What's going on with the production of them?
> 
> Amtrak172


Whenever they finish testing, and Amtrak decides that they're ready to do. I don't think anyone really knows for sure yet. Assuming testing goes well, it will be sooner than later. If they find problems with the new cars, well, then its anyone's guess.

I believe that the original plan was to build one of each type of car, and test them. Once (if) they have been proven, I would think that production would go into high hear (if it isn't already), and that we would start seeing them come off the production lines in greater numbers, much more quickly.

Who really knows though. Amtrak and CAF have been really tight lipped about everything. The RF spies that watch the CAF production facility can only see so much, and the only real confirmation we have is when a car is actually delivered to Amtrak.


----------



## Ryan

One baggage car has been delivered and is being tested.

Amtrak has a train at CAFs facility to pick up more car(s) - number and type unknown.

We'll see revenue service most likely sometime this year, unless testing turns up an issue that prevents that.


----------



## Amtrak172

Do you know when Amtrak's train will depart the CAF facility? Hope it's soon. Amtrak's ETA for revenue service was summer 2014.

Amtrak172


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Amtrak172 said:


> Do you know when Amtrak's train will depart the CAF facility? Hope it's soon. Amtrak's ETA for revenue service was summer 2014.
> 
> Amtrak172


If he knew and would have said. It appears no one who is reading this thread today has any new info.


----------



## MattW

If the train's sitting there, Monday would be a good guess unless a problem develops or unless Monday is still considered a holiday.


----------



## Amtrak172

Thanks

Amtrak172


----------



## Tuesday

2sday


----------



## neroden

RyanS said:


> One baggage car has been delivered and is being tested.
> 
> Amtrak has a train at CAFs facility to pick up more car(s) - number and type unknown.


Not entirely unknown.
A dining car, in full "Amtrak America" livery, was witnessed being switched, and probably being attached to the pickup train. (You can tell it's a dining car by the window pattern.) It's not clear whether that's the only car being picked up, of course; there could be more. But the implication is that (at least) one dining car is going to Amtrak for testing. I'll be pessimistic and assume that that's all, but I'd love to discover that a bag-dorm and a sleeper are moving too. 

Apparently our mysterious guest says that it's moving on Tuesday.


----------



## afigg

Amtrak172 said:


> Do you know when Amtrak's train will depart the CAF facility? Hope it's soon. Amtrak's ETA for revenue service was summer 2014.


The ETA of summer 2014 for initial revenue service was so last October. Back in mid 2010 when the contract award to CAF was announced, "The first car is scheduled to roll off the assembly line in October 2012." Missed it by _that_ much.

As of the June 17, 2014 press release, the goal is to have the baggage cars begin to enter revenue service by the end of 2014. All it said about the other 3 types was "The diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars will be used on eastern long-distance routes with the first units of each expected to begin field testing this summer." If a diner car, and hopefully at least a bag-dorm car as well, are moved from Elmira next week that is a sign that the testing of the baggage car is going ok.


----------



## Amtrak172

Has anyone seen a bag-dorm yet?

Amtrak172


----------



## MikefromCrete

Baggage-dorms are inside the CAF plant in Elmira. So far, I haven't seen any photos taken by railfan-spies from outside the factory grounds.


----------



## Ryan

There has been only one car released from the factory and it isn't a bag-dorm.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

With 2 _*Silvers*_ and the _*Lake Shore*_ coming my way in a few weeks it will be interesting to see if any of these first run cars are on the line by then.....


----------



## Ryan

A few months and I think you'd have a chance. If I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet on seeing anything in revenue service before September or October.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'm figuring the Bags Cars first, then Bag Dorms, Diners and the Sleepers last! Hopefully they'll be in service for the Holiday rush from Thanksgiving to New Years so Amtrak can get the much needed Revenue from additional Rooms available on the Viewliner equipped Routes!


----------



## afigg

RyanS said:


> A few months and I think you'd have a chance. If I were a betting man, I wouldn't bet on seeing anything in revenue service before September or October.


Given that only 1 baggage car has been delivered for initial testing and it is currently early July, extremely unlikely to see any cars in revenue service in September or October. The cars have to undergo extensive testing, be reviewed and approved by the FRA, and have to be made available for maintenance and operation training and familiarization. All that takes time.


----------



## jis

I would be extremely pleasantly surprised if anything other than a handful of Viewliner II baggage cars see commercial service this year.


----------



## Amtrak172

Wow, these cars are really behind schedule. Why is the production of cars being delayed.

Amtrak172


----------



## ayezee

Amtrak172 said:


> Wow, these cars are really behind schedule. Why is the production of cars being delayed.
> 
> Amtrak172


I believe there was an issue finding qualified welders and initial weld issues that have led to the delays.


----------



## Acela150

It was a lot more then just welding. IINM they had issues with cable placement and much more. But that could be a bunch of scuttlebutt.


----------



## William W.

ayezee said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, these cars are really behind schedule. Why is the production of cars being delayed.
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there was an issue finding qualified welders and initial weld issues that have led to the delays.
Click to expand...

The unfortunate result of the "everyone should go to college" attitude that is prevalent in the public schools these days. They closed my district's vocational school because they would get more money if they set up biomedical and visual arts academies. I don't know about you, but I haven't met a visual arts student who can make a good weld, carve furnishings, or work with complex mechanical equipment. Our country's pool of skilled labor is aging, and the replacements for them are few and far between. We're going to have a major skilled labor shortage crisis in the coming years if we don't get our act together.


----------



## Bob Dylan

True the comments on the shortage of skilled workers in certain areas of the country! With the oil booms up along the Hi-Line and in Texas, skilled crafstman are in high demand and short supply!

And Vocational Training is considered second class and short funded in most school districts! Also the current political climate that allows immigrant worker bashing isn't going to help solve this problem even though there are qualified hard working immigrants ready to come do these jobs and have a better life just like our ancestors!


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> It was a lot more then just welding. IINM they had issues with cable placement and much more. But that could be a bunch of scuttlebutt.


There were reports of a stop work order for a design change that was a primary reason for a delay a year or two back. The problem with getting enough qualified stainless steel welders was reportedly not only in hiring, but also retaining them due to the fracking boom.

As I think I have noted before in this thread, the Amtrak Inspector General posted a notice several months ago that they would be conducting an audit of the CAF contract for cost, schedule, and performance. The audit does not mean that the IG thinks there is something wrong, the CAF contract is a major contract so it gets audited at some point. The IG audit report, which is a public document, may provide the only straight answers we will get on what were the reasons for the delays.


----------



## hastybob

The train will be leaving the CAF plant in the morning with 3 new Viewliner cars - 62500-Sleeper, 69000 - bagg dorm and 68000 - Diner.

So, now one of each type car will be out for testing.

Bob


----------



## Ryan

Thanks, Bob!!!


----------



## jis

Yeay! Now watch the drool on various train station platforms starting from Albany and then on the NEC for starters :lol:


----------



## MrFSS

jis said:


> Yeay! Now watch the drool on various train station platforms starting from Albany and then on the NEC for starters :lol:


I forget - where is the CAF plant?


----------



## Ryan

Elmira, NY


----------



## NE933

jis said:


> Yeay! Now watch the drool on various train station platforms starting from Albany and then on the NEC for starters :lol:


Wear your hiking boots. :-D


----------



## neroden

hastybob said:


> The train will be leaving the CAF plant in the morning with 3 new Viewliner cars - 62500-Sleeper, 69000 - bagg dorm and 68000 - Diner.
> 
> So, now one of each type car will be out for testing.
> 
> Bob


(Air fist bump!) Yaaaaaay!


----------



## Paulus

William W. said:


> The unfortunate result of the "everyone should go to college" attitude that is prevalent in the public schools these days. They closed my district's vocational school because they would get more money if they set up biomedical and visual arts academies. I don't know about you, but I haven't met a visual arts student who can make a good weld, carve furnishings, or work with complex mechanical equipment. Our country's pool of skilled labor is aging, and the replacements for them are few and far between. We're going to have a major skilled labor shortage crisis in the coming years if we don't get our act together.


Skilled worker shortage relative to what pay scale however? Skilled worker shortages have a remarkable tendency to disappear when you raise the pay to something that people can actually make a decent living on. From what I can tell, that's not so much the case with welding outside of union gigs (which tend to have apprenticeship programs anyhow) and folks being recruited for the oil boom (where everyone's wages are sky high).


----------



## montana mike

Skilled Welders in our area out west command a hefty wage. They are a challenge to find. We have a number of "hi-tech businesses" in our valley that need these people. So much so, that our local Community College has a certification program just for welders!


----------



## jis

A lot of the skilled welders have gone off to higher paying jobs in the Backen fields, thus exacerbating the already existing shortage too.


----------



## Steve4031

Hastybob

Thanks for the updates.


----------



## gaspeamtrak

Whoooooo  let the Dogs out!?


----------



## Acela150

gaspeamtrak said:


> Whoooooo  let the Dogs out!?


It was me.. I let the dogs out... And I don't regret it at all...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Outstanding, hopefully all the foamers will have cameras and take pics and that Amtrak insiders will let us know of any problems or bugs that arise!

We may be closer to the First Viewliner II going into Revenue service than most of us guessed on Ryan's Poll!


----------



## Amtrak172

Is anyone going to take pics of the train?

Amtrak172


----------



## Amtrak172

hastybob said:


> The train will be leaving the CAF plant in the morning with 3 new Viewliner cars - 62500-Sleeper, 69000 - bagg dorm and 68000 - Diner.
> 
> So, now one of each type car will be out for testing.
> 
> Bob



Do you know of anyone that's going to take pictures? I want to see these new cars, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one.

Amtrak172


----------



## Acela150

I'm sure there will be a few fans out taking pictures. It's not like were not all over the world or anything....


----------



## Ryan

No. Absolutely nobody is going to take pictures.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Where exactly are the 3 cars going on Tuesday?


----------



## Acela150

ALB for a week of testing then down to PHL for speed testing. At least that's what was done with the bag.


----------



## Acela150

RyanS said:


> No. Absolutely nobody is going to take pictures.


Yeah they'll take selfies instead...


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Acela150 said:


> ALB for a week of testing then down to PHL for speed testing. At least that's what was done with the bag.


I'm guessing this will be done on _*Empire Service*_ and _*NE Corridor*_ Trains?


----------



## Acela150

No. They will run on test trains exclusively on the NEC. Mostly between NYP and WAS with the base of ops being in PHL's Penn Coach Yard. Full commissions will be out of Hialeah, FL.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Acela150 said:


> No. They will run on test trains exclusively on the NEC. Mostly between NYP and WAS with the base of ops being in PHL's Penn Coach Yard. Full commissions will be out of Hialeah, FL.


Those should be interesting trains. I would imagine a lot of night running when traffic is light?


----------



## Acela150

Yes. For instance a month ago I was on a very late 66. We were going slow near MIDWAY Interlocking and a test train blew our doors off. Consisted of a cab car, VL II Bag, and an Amcan, with a AEM-7 leading. Only way I could tell was we passed the train at MIDWAY. Keep in mind that most track work on the NEC is performed at night. It's much safer for Track crews and with the amount of trains during the day it would take longer.


----------



## jis

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. They will run on test trains exclusively on the NEC. Mostly between NYP and WAS with the base of ops being in PHL's Penn Coach Yard. Full commissions will be out of Hialeah, FL.
> 
> 
> 
> Those should be interesting trains. I would imagine a lot of night running when traffic is light?
Click to expand...

A lot of early afternoon running too. Contrary to popular folklore, the NEC is not that overloaded during late morning and early afternoon either.


----------



## hastybob

Looks like the testing will be done on the Empire corridor. (At least for now) I hear the 61000 will go to Albany later today.


----------



## Amtrak172

What time is that train leaving the plant? It may just be whenever. Is somebody going to post pics of the train?

Amtrak172


----------



## neroden

Apparently there are no photos out yet. You'd expect spies at Elmira to be snapping shots the moment it happens...


----------



## Ryan

You can be assured that there will be pictures all over the place just as soon as the train starts moving.


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> No. Absolutely nobody is going to take pictures.


I'm just wondering.

Amtrak172


----------



## Agent

Trainorders has pictures (www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3459872), but you have to pay to see them larger than thumbnail size.

The diner has been named _Albany_.

The sleeper has been named _Portage River_.


----------



## jis

They look sharp!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

That they do.


----------



## William W.

How many roomettes are there in the bag dorm? I counted four windows on one side, so I'm assuming eight total. Are they standard roomettes, or modified to save space?


----------



## afigg

William W. said:


> How many roomettes are there in the bag dorm? I counted four windows on one side, so I'm assuming eight total. Are they standard roomettes, or modified to save space?


There are 9 roomettes in the bag dorm. We need high rez photos or videos of both sides of the bag dorm. Interior publicity photos would also be useful because the bag dorm is the one type that has not been shown in photos yet.


----------



## William W.

If they have empty rooms, will they be sold as revenue space, as is the case on some trains with trans-dorms? I can imagine this being the case on some trains (such as the Cardinal), or during high-volume times (holidays, etc).


----------



## neroden

Amtrak has always said that they will sell excess space in the bag-dorms.

There won't be much excess space. A typical dining car on the LSL, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, or Crescent has 4 or 5 staff members, there's 1 staff member in the lounge, there's 2 or 3 coach attendants already, and we're up to 7 to 9 staff members each of whom gets their own roomette. If the trains get longer, there will be even less space.

Amtrak has said that the sleeper attendant from the next car would handle the one or two revenue roomettes in the bag-dorm, which should be manageable given that Superliner sleeper attendants handle a lot more.

(The Cardinal should have more extra space, unless it gets its full dining car back. I'm not sure how Amtrak will handle that.)


----------



## afigg

A short video of the three new Viewliner IIs on the move has been uploaded to youtube: New Amtrak Viewliner passenger cars on the move 7/8/2014

There is also a new youtube video of the #98 Silver Meteor departing Trenton with the 10004 American View inspection car on the end. Since 10004 is a rebuilt Viewliner prototype, I figured the video link is appropriate for this thread.

Did a search for Amtrak Viewliner on youtube. I expect there will be a number of videos showing up in the coming days.

Edit: link fix attempt


----------



## NE933

The YouTube link to the new VIIs doesn't work.


----------



## Amtrak172

afigg said:


> A short video of the three new Viewliner IIs on the move has been uploaded to youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l1GRXvpwRU.
> 
> There is also a


Awesome cars!! Did those new cars have the red reflector tape on the bottom?

Amtrak172


----------



## afigg

NE933 said:


> The YouTube link to the new VIIs doesn't work.


I just double checked and the links to both videos work for me. The title of the Viewliner II video on youtube is "New Amtrak Viewliner passenger cars on the move 7/8/2014" if you need to search for it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

NE933 said:


> The YouTube link to the new VIIs doesn't work.


Doesn't work for me either! I tried You Tube and Google and got error messages!!


----------



## CHamilton

It's working for me. Here's an embed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l1GRXvpwRU


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks Charlie! Works fine now!( that train was hauling the mail so high speed testing must already be going on!)


----------



## gaspeamtrak

THANK YOU !!!


----------



## NE933

Yes, thanks to all who worked to bring out the great news, and the videos!

Now we must hope for them to pass all the tests, that they are quickly deployed without a single moment to loose, and that more will be ordered, because we all know that the trains will be able to carry and move more passengers, more efficiently.


----------



## NE933

Hey, when enough get accepted, let's make a special AU trip on one of the sleepers by group reserving and going someplace just for the heck of it! New Orleans, Florida, or somewhere on the Cardinal! Or Virginia Beach, anybody?


----------



## Blackwolf

Amtrak172 said:


> Awesome cars!! Did those new cars have the red reflector tape on the bottom?
> 
> Amtrak172


Sure as heck did not look like it.


----------



## CHamilton

CAF USA to ship first Amtrak cars


----------



## rickycourtney

The cars themselves look sharp... this new phase "IIIb" paint scheme looks awful. I don't mind the bright red, white and bright blue so much... it's the awful "Amtrak America" logos. It look like it was done by a college student still taking their freshman graphic design classes.

The sooner those stripes are pulled off and replaced with the proper phase IVb stripes... the better.


----------



## jis

As I understand it the Phase IIIb will not be replaced by Phase IV on these cars anytime soon. This I heard from a proverbial horse's mouth in a manner of speaking. But of course anything is possible 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## afigg

Another short video of the Viewliner II move has been posted to Youtube: Maiden Trips - NB CP ??? (NS 056). This one is of the other side with the train having switched ends on the trip. Shows 5 pairs of windows on the baggage-dorm car. (Hopefully this link will work for everyone who wants to view it).



The order of the 3 cars is baggage-dorm, sleeper, diner and they appear to be oriented as they would be in a regular consist. Bag-dorm with the roomette end connected to the sleeper, the sleeper oriented with the ADA bedroom next to the seating end of the diner. So over the next 12 to 24 months, this should become a common sight on the eastern LD trains; bag-dorm, 2 or more sleepers, diner car like these first sightings in the wild videos.


----------



## Amtrak172

rickycourtney said:


> The cars themselves look sharp... this new phase "IIIb" paint scheme looks awful. I don't mind the bright red, white and bright blue so much... it's the awful "Amtrak America" logos. It look like it was done by a college student still taking their freshman graphic design classes.
> 
> The sooner those stripes are pulled off and replaced with the proper phase IVb stripes... the better.


I'm with you on this one. I do know that the current Amtrak logo will return on these cars. I do hope that Amtrak phase IVb will return!!

Amtrak172


----------



## Ryan

That isn't going to happen.


----------



## Amtrak172

I'm on Amtrak train #63 the Maple Leaf and just left Albany, NY. As we were leaving the station, we past Amtrak's yard here. I'm not sure what this yard is called. Anyway, I saw a few awesome things here. Amtrak's great dome #10031, Amtrak 10-6 sleeper Pacific Cape #10021, and Amtrak Viewliner II baggage #61000 were here. Unfortunately, 10021 and 10031 were not visible in the camera but luckily the baggage car was.

Amtrak172


----------



## afigg

CHamilton said:


> CAF USA to ship first Amtrak cars


Summary is Congressman Reed ® who has Elmira in his district tours CAF plant looking to take some credit in an election year as the 3 new Viewliners are ready to ship. The article photo gallery is not working at the moment, but I saw some of the photos earlier so maybe they will be available later.

Key piece of info in the news report: "So far, 70 car shells have been built of 130 on order, a company official said.".


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> That isn't going to happen.


Why...because you don't want it to? Guess what, what your saying might be bull crap. I know a guy that works at beech grove. He said that the possibility of Viewliner II's in phase IVb is low but it is possible.

Amtrak172


----------



## Blackwolf

Haters are going to hate. Its the nature of humanity, especially since the Internet was born.

IMHO, Phase III(b) is classier than the current IVb, which I consider to be bland and utilitarian. It has bolder lines, richer colors, and stands out against the silver of the stainless.

However, nothing Amtrak has created for a color scheme has ever truly had Class. Nothing comes close to the Southern Pacific _Daylight_ scheme, which I think is the most classy paint any train in the world has ever worn. Or the PRR Tuscan Red with gold pinstripes. Or even the grey and charcoal of the NYC.


----------



## neroden

Looking at the bag-dorms, I am absolutely certain there won't be enough baggage space for typical loads out of New York City on the LSL, Meteor, Star, or Crescent. The baggage area is simply too short; there's maybe room for 8 rack units, maybe only 6. The baggage load arriving at Syracuse NY from the west alone will fill 3 or 4 units, so I can't imagine how much baggage must be going from NY-Chicago or NY-Miami. And Amtrak's planning to allow bicycles, too....

Expect most trains to run with both a bag-dorm and a full baggage car; even if Amtrak tries to operate with only a bag-dorm at first, it won't work on most of the trains.

There may be some clever allocation of space so that the full baggage car is only opened at major stations and the bag-dorm is used for baggage to and from minor stations. I'd expect bikes to be preferentially placed in the bag-dorm. Something similar may be done on western trains where coach-baggage cars are available.

---(edit)---

...FWIW, the baggage car order is nearly enough cars to do this. Current deployments seem to use roughly 54 baggage cars. This doesn't count any which might be used on corridor routes in the Midwest or California, which should be going away with the new bilevel orders. And it doesn't count the Piedmont, for which NCDOT supplies its own cars. And it doesn't count the Hiawatha. But the LSL shouldn't need more than one full baggage + one bag dorm, so that frees up 3, and if the Cardinal can make do with a bag-dorm, that frees up 2 more. Although it would be highly desirable to add baggage to the Pennsylvanian, which uses up 2, and I'm not sure how many the Hiawatha uses.

As it is, 55 full baggage cars are being ordered; about 65...70 would be wanted to provide a suitable shop count for the scenario I just laid out. Even with 55, it baggage car maintenance could be scheduled during the weakest point of the off-season, the eastern long-distance trains could probably get a baggage car + a bag-dorm most of the year.


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak172 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Why...because you don't want it to?
Click to expand...

No, because Amtrak has said the brand was going to be applied across the entire single level LD fleet. While it's possible that they'll change their mind at some point in the future, I doubt that they're going to make all of this fanfare about a new branding and then roll them back to a difference scheme.


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't going to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> Why...because you don't want it to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, because Amtrak has said the brand was going to be applied across the entire single level LD fleet. While it's possible that they'll change their mind at some point in the future, I doubt that they're going to make all of this fanfare about a new branding and then roll them back to a difference scheme.
Click to expand...

Well, don't get why Amtrak wants to change their paint scheme on the single level LD trains again. I'd improve the interiors.

Amtrak172


----------



## Amtrak172

neroden said:


> Looking at the bag-dorms, I am absolutely certain there won't be enough baggage space for typical loads out of New York City on the LSL, Meteor, Star, or Crescent. The baggage area is simply too short; there's maybe room for 8 rack units, maybe only 6. The baggage load arriving at Syracuse NY from the west alone will fill 3 or 4 units, so I can't imagine how much baggage must be going from NY-Chicago or NY-Miami. And Amtrak's planning to allow bicycles, too....
> 
> Expect most trains to run with both a bag-dorm and a full baggage car; even if Amtrak tries to operate with only a bag-dorm at first, it won't work on most of the trains.
> 
> There may be some clever allocation of space so that the full baggage car is only opened at major stations and the bag-dorm is used for baggage to and from minor stations. I'd expect bikes to be preferentially placed in the bag-dorm. Something similar may be done on western trains where coach-baggage cars are available.



One of the reasons why Amtrak ordered 55 baggage cars as well as the 25 bag/dorms is to use the baggage cars on routes that need the extra baggage space. The bag/dorms will provide rooms for the crew and baggage space (if needed).

Amtrak172


----------



## JNaismith

How many Viewliner Trainsets are in use currently?


----------



## neroden

JNaismith said:


> How many Viewliner Trainsets are in use currently?


My resource for counting stuff like this has always been this page:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/32610-line-numbersconsist-listings/


----------



## William W.

The only trains that I could see running with only a bag-dorm are the Cardinal and 66/67.

Catch me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why Amtrak wouldn't keep the heritage baggage cars that are in better shape around. That way, they can add capacity when needed, and have extras to stand in for bad ordered cars.


----------



## Bob Dylan

William W. said:


> The only trains that I could see running with only a bag-dorm are the Cardinal and 66/67.
> 
> Catch me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why Amtrak wouldn't keep the heritage baggage cars that are in better shape around. That way, they can add capacity when needed, and have extras to stand in for bad ordered cars.


There aren't any that are " in better shape!" They're worn out and mechanical burdens, run hard and put up wet as the saying goes!


----------



## jis

Ryan is correct. I have heard one of the very high level managers in Amtrak with some real day on this matter say so. I believe as long as Boardman is around this will definitely hold true. After that one never knows.

I also happen to think that Phase IVb is Amtrak's second least attractive scheme on single level trains. The worst of course being the silly lava lamp thing on Acelas and even more so on the Regionals. It would have been better to simply leave them as clean Stainless Steel. Just IMHO.

Improving the interior takes way more money than just striping the exterior. They are not even in the same ballpark in terms of funds needed.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Amtrak172

JNaismith said:


> How many Viewliner Trainsets are in use currently?


Amtrak has a little less than 50 Viewliner I's still in service.

Amtrak172


----------



## Amtrak172

jis said:


> Ryan is correct. I have heard one of the very high level managers in Amtrak with some real day on this matter say so. I believe as long as Boardman is around this will definitely hold true. After that one never knows.
> 
> I also happen to think that Phase IVb is Amtrak's second least attractive scheme on single level trains. The worst of course being the silly lava lamp thing on Acelas and even more so on the Regionals. It would have been better to simply leave them as clean Stainless Steel. Just IMHO.
> 
> Improving the interior takes way more money than just striping the exterior. They are not even in the same ballpark in terms of funds needed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Phase IVb is way better than phase IV. The shade of blue is better, it doesn't have coach or sleeper etc., and it has Amtrak's current logo.

Amtrak172


----------



## rickycourtney

I don't mind the Phase III stripes... what bugs me is the inconsistent logos and their haphazard placement.

On one version of the logo (the logotype) the "America" is buried in small white type in the blue line. The other version of the logo using the old pointless arrow seems to be stuck on the car wherever there was a free area of stainless steel. Say what you will about phase IVb (or any other phase for that matter) but at least there was consistency with things like logo placement and size.

These things are just basic design principals. Create a consistent "look" and stick with it. But I guess that's expecting too much from Amtrak (a company that spent the last 10+ trying to rebrand itself, removing all traces of the pointless arrow logo, just to bring it back on a limited number of cars for no apparent reason.)


----------



## William W.

For me, having a uniform paint scheme is meaningless on the eastern LD trains, since the train consists themselves aren't uniform. Until they are able to run with all-Viewliner consists, all they really need to do is paint "Amtrak" on the side. I think people tend to notice that a train has three (or even four) different types of cars on it more than they do the paint job.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Having enjoyed another look at the_* Union Pacific*_ Armour Yellow Passenger Fleet including an E9A & B parked alongside _*TD Ameritrade*_ in Omaha for the _*CWS*_ confirms as basic as it is, that is one terrific paint scheme. Of course as with airliners, more paint means more maintenance.

That is why I like Phase IVb. Basic and allows a decent match up of the Duke's Mixture of cars on a typical train.


----------



## Amtrak172

rickycourtney said:


> These things are just basic design principals. Create a consistent "look" and stick with it. But I guess that's expecting too much from Amtrak (a company that spent the last 10+ trying to rebrand itself, removing all traces of the pointless arrow logo, just to bring it back on a limited number of cars for no apparent reason.)


This is exactly why I think Amtrak should stick to phase IVb.

Amtrak172


----------



## Amtrak172

William W. said:


> For me, having a uniform paint scheme is meaningless on the eastern LD trains, since the train consists themselves aren't uniform. Until they are able to run with all-Viewliner consists, all they really need to do is paint "Amtrak" on the side. I think people tend to notice that a train has three (or even four) different types of cars on it more than they do the paint job.


Same.

Amtrak172


----------



## blueman271

William W. said:


> The only trains that I could see running with only a bag-dorm are the Cardinal and 66/67.
> 
> Catch me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why Amtrak wouldn't keep the heritage baggage cars that are in better shape around. That way, they can add capacity when needed, and have extras to stand in for bad ordered cars.


What are the chances that 66/67 only get a bag-dorm and not a full sleeper? They could sell the dorm as full revenue space since the cafe stays open all night and that would free up two sleepers for the other Eastern routes.


----------



## William W.

That could be a good idea. It would be a good way to test demand for sleepers on that route without committing two full sleeping cars. Do the bag-dorms have showers though? I feel like that would be an essential feature for a revenue sleeping car, especially if the bag-dorm provides the only sleeping space on the entire train. If they are going to try to market the train to business travelers, a shower is a must.


----------



## TommyBNSF

What I don't get is why they would just repaint the single level trains. The Superliner trains will have the new baggage cars and they're long distance so it would make sense to restripe them as well. We'll just have to see when the time comes.


----------



## neroden

The bag-dorm definitely has a shower; look at the window pattern carefully. There's one of those "high only" windows. Frankly, the OBS probably use the shower more than the customers do.

As for "paint" schemes, these are all vinyl appliques now. It's relatively cheap to change them and as a result I would expect a fair amount of churn.

Personally I vote for the word "Amtrak" in large logotype, the car number, the type (sleeper/diner/etc), and bare stainless steel the rest of the way. But then I do tend to go for "form follows function".


----------



## Ryan

TommyBNSF said:


> What I don't get is why they would just repaint the single level trains. The Superliner trains will have the new baggage cars and they're long distance so it would make sense to restripe them as well. We'll just have to see when the time comes.


Because the VL1s are going in for refurb as soon as they can, so this will just be a part of that. 
There aren't enough Superliners to go around as it is, shopping them for just a new exterior wouldn't be very smart.


----------



## neroden

...also, I think some of the Superliners (and possibly some Amfleets?) still have paint on them.

It may be easy to take a car in for a vinyl wrap, but if you have to take the old paint off first, that's a *project*.

...(on edit)...

It looks like Amtrak's current vinyl decalling and removal machinery was well in place in 2004, judging by a comment by "rickycourtney" from 2013 on another website:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3218538

It appears that there are very few cars left with actual paint. So it might really be quite an easy job to restripe all the Superliners and Amfleets and Viewliner Is. But I suspect Amtrak will not do that until the new cars come into service; at the moment "phase IIIb" is not in use on any active equipment, so why rush it?


----------



## Thomas McGowan

RyanS said:


> TommyBNSF said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't get is why they would just repaint the single level trains. The Superliner trains will have the new baggage cars and they're long distance so it would make sense to restripe them as well. We'll just have to see when the time comes.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the VL1s are going in for refurb as soon as they can, so this will just be a part of that.
> There aren't enough Superliners to go around as it is, shopping them for just a new exterior wouldn't be very smart.
Click to expand...

I understand that and I'm not saying they'll rush it. I mean it took 9 years to restripe all of the Superliners from IV to IVb (39043 being the last), so I'm saying if they go in for an overhaul, they can restripe them then but of course restriping just for the heck of it would be stupid.


----------



## NE933

Dear Jesus Christ, me, my circle of folks, and the world, are on fire. We burn with war, sickness, and hunger. And while trains by themselves can not resolve all our hardships, it seems people are happier when they get to where they are going. Many of our own vacations and work duties would've bee in jeopardy without them. I hope and pray for the new railcars and locomotives to serve their callings well, and we celebrate their potential to bring widespread benefits. And therefore, I pray for malfunctioning leaders to rise up and provide more of them, and for the mechanical tests to reveal encouraging outcomes. For these reasons we clang glasses of the nectars of hope and imagination which symbolize a common humanity.


----------



## William W.

...oh lord, here we go...


----------



## VentureForth

The principle problem that I have noticed with changing livery (and let us, please use that term rather than "paint") is the fact that rather than "paint", most livery schemes are vinyl stickers.

When Amtrak gets sick of one livery, they peel the stickers and put on new ones. But they don't do their best to clean where they've peeled - or maybe they do, and the stainless steel is brighter behind the residue. Regardless, when you see remnants of a previous livery, it completely destroys the aesthetics of the new one that has replaced it.

I would argue that the US is one of the last countries where their major long distance trains are still "rainbow". Not quite like the rainbow days of the 70's, but mismatched heights, paint, cross section shape, etc., are all a true shame to an otherwise fairly cool rail system.

Perhaps the only consist/livery in the Amtrak system that doesn't look "odd" in my own humble opinion is the completely unmodifiable Acela. But it's a waste of platform space with its two locos serving a mere 6 coaches.

1. All Superliner, Pac Surf, Talgos are pretty consistent most of the time. However, the P42 or F59PHI that hauls them are not the same height or paint scheme as the coaches. Worse when a green loco is set up with the "swoop" baggage car on the Talgos. The baggage car on the Superliner sets disrupt the flow between the loco and the Superliners. Medium height loco, single level baggage, two level superliner... Ick.

2. The NERs look pretty consistent. The locos are a bit tall for the rest of the consist. I still prefer weight distributed DMU/EMU's, but I know we can't expect that so long as we have to have these trains jump from diesel to electric systems.

3. The worst have got to be the ones we're talking about most in this thread - the Single Level sleeper trains. The Viewliners are _almost_ the same height as the P42s. If there were ONLY Viewliners in a consist, and the livery was good, it would look fantastic. But I don't think there is any plan to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells - who needs 12' ceilings in coach?


----------



## tricia

NE933 said:


> Dear Jesus Christ, me, my circle of folks, and the world, are on fire. We burn with war, sickness, and hunger. And while trains by themselves can not resolve all our hardships, it seems people are happier when they get to where they are going. Many of our own vacations and work duties would've bee in jeopardy without them. I hope and pray for the new railcars and locomotives to serve their callings well, and we celebrate their potential to bring widespread benefits. And therefore, I pray for malfunctioning leaders to rise up and provide more of them, and for the mechanical tests to reveal encouraging outcomes. For these reasons we clang glasses of the nectars of hope and imagination which symbolize a common humanity.


----------



## Blackwolf

Just noticed this when watching one of the YouTube videos again.

The new diners have their stove hood exhaust vents on the side of the car, not the roof. That's a shift from every diner I've ever seen, which has the exhaust up top. I suppose its because Amtrak has the stove/ovens/cooking equipment on the outside wall of the kitchen instead of the traditional location of against the inside wall for the passageway.

Hopefully the vents don't become an eyesore with kitchen grease buildup. On the other hand, walking past a VLII diner at a station platform has the treat of smelling what's cooking inside. Amtrak better make sure it smells good!


----------



## William W.

VentureForth said:


> The principle problem that I have noticed with changing livery (and let us, please use that term rather than "paint") is the fact that rather than "paint", most livery schemes are vinyl stickers.
> 
> When Amtrak gets sick of one livery, they peel the stickers and put on new ones. But they don't do their best to clean where they've peeled - or maybe they do, and the stainless steel is brighter behind the residue. Regardless, when you see remnants of a previous livery, it completely destroys the aesthetics of the new one that has replaced it.
> 
> I would argue that the US is one of the last countries where their major long distance trains are still "rainbow". Not quite like the rainbow days of the 70's, but mismatched heights, paint, cross section shape, etc., are all a true shame to an otherwise fairly cool rail system.
> 
> Perhaps the only consist/livery in the Amtrak system that doesn't look "odd" in my own humble opinion is the completely unmodifiable Acela. But it's a waste of platform space with its two locos serving a mere 6 coaches.
> 
> 1. All Superliner, Pac Surf, Talgos are pretty consistent most of the time. However, the P42 or F59PHI that hauls them are not the same height or paint scheme as the coaches. Worse when a green loco is set up with the "swoop" baggage car on the Talgos. The baggage car on the Superliner sets disrupt the flow between the loco and the Superliners. Medium height loco, single level baggage, two level superliner... Ick.
> 
> 2. The NERs look pretty consistent. The locos are a bit tall for the rest of the consist. I still prefer weight distributed DMU/EMU's, but I know we can't expect that so long as we have to have these trains jump from diesel to electric systems.
> 
> 3. The worst have got to be the ones we're talking about most in this thread - the Single Level sleeper trains. The Viewliners are _almost_ the same height as the P42s. If there were ONLY Viewliners in a consist, and the livery was good, it would look fantastic. But I don't think there is any plan to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells - who needs 12' ceilings in coach?


Even though a Viewliner might be a bit big for a coach, there is something to be said about parts commonality, and uniform maintenance training. I don't see Viewliners being used on short or medium distance trains, but they should replace the Amfleet IIs with Viewliner coaches when they can.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Bigger baggage racks are not a bad thing.


----------



## MattW

William W. said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> The principle problem that I have noticed with changing livery (and let us, please use that term rather than "paint") is the fact that rather than "paint", most livery schemes are vinyl stickers.
> 
> When Amtrak gets sick of one livery, they peel the stickers and put on new ones. But they don't do their best to clean where they've peeled - or maybe they do, and the stainless steel is brighter behind the residue. Regardless, when you see remnants of a previous livery, it completely destroys the aesthetics of the new one that has replaced it.
> 
> I would argue that the US is one of the last countries where their major long distance trains are still "rainbow". Not quite like the rainbow days of the 70's, but mismatched heights, paint, cross section shape, etc., are all a true shame to an otherwise fairly cool rail system.
> 
> Perhaps the only consist/livery in the Amtrak system that doesn't look "odd" in my own humble opinion is the completely unmodifiable Acela. But it's a waste of platform space with its two locos serving a mere 6 coaches.
> 
> 1. All Superliner, Pac Surf, Talgos are pretty consistent most of the time. However, the P42 or F59PHI that hauls them are not the same height or paint scheme as the coaches. Worse when a green loco is set up with the "swoop" baggage car on the Talgos. The baggage car on the Superliner sets disrupt the flow between the loco and the Superliners. Medium height loco, single level baggage, two level superliner... Ick.
> 
> 2. The NERs look pretty consistent. The locos are a bit tall for the rest of the consist. I still prefer weight distributed DMU/EMU's, but I know we can't expect that so long as we have to have these trains jump from diesel to electric systems.
> 
> 3. The worst have got to be the ones we're talking about most in this thread - the Single Level sleeper trains. The Viewliners are _almost_ the same height as the P42s. If there were ONLY Viewliners in a consist, and the livery was good, it would look fantastic. But I don't think there is any plan to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells - who needs 12' ceilings in coach?
> 
> 
> 
> Even though a Viewliner might be a bit big for a coach, there is something to be said about parts commonality, and uniform maintenance training. I don't see Viewliners being used on short or medium distance trains, but they should replace the Amfleet IIs with Viewliner coaches when they can.
Click to expand...

Why not? The seat pitch would of course be lowered in their "corridor" configuration but that's it. I think they'd make very fine coach cars.


----------



## Bob Dylan

They would make great Lounge Cars also!!! (Hint!Hint!)


----------



## afigg

VentureForth said:


> 3. The worst have got to be the ones we're talking about most in this thread - the Single Level sleeper trains. The Viewliners are _almost_ the same height as the P42s. If there were ONLY Viewliners in a consist, and the livery was good, it would look fantastic. But I don't think there is any plan to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells - who needs 12' ceilings in coach?


There certainly appear to be plans by Amtrak to replace the single level Amfleet coach and cafe cars with Viewliners. However, any major procurement order would have to be compliant with the Next Gen single level specification and I don't know how close the current Viewliner design is to compliance with the spec. For the eastern corridor cars, the states would have to agree with ordering the Amtrak owned Viewliner design and they may want to go with an open bid from vendors for a multi-state order.
Checking the PRIIA Single Level specification, yep, the car height is to be 14' 6", so even if a single level corridor car order was for a vendor supplied design, the interior height would be close to the Viewliner design and the cars would have the same general external dimensions as the Viewliners. As for the extra ceiling height, why not have room for large overhead storage bins and a more open overhead space inside the car?


----------



## jis

He may be worried about the single vestibule in current Viewliners. But I am most certain that Viewliners with two vestibules would be easy to build. So I don;t see why they could not be used for corridor coaches.


----------



## FreeskierInVT

I'm on today's southbound Adirondack that is currently sitting outside ALB waiting for an open platform. Spotted the new cars sitting about 100 yards behind us. I was focused on my calc homework in my lap and the "retro" livery certainly caught my eye! Fumbled with my phone and could only get a pic of the baggage car at the end of the test train


----------



## afigg

FreeskierInVT said:


> I'm on today's southbound Adirondack that is currently sitting outside ALB waiting for an open platform. Spotted the new cars sitting about 100 yards behind us. I was focused on my calc homework in my lap and the "retro" livery certainly caught my eye! Fumbled with my phone and could only get a pic of the baggage car at the end of the test train


Thanks for the photo! The baggage car is still a new Viewliner, even if it has been out in the wild for several months. I wonder why they moved the 61000 baggage car up to Albany? Did they do that for testing the connections between all 4 car types or is there a plan for a dog & pony show/press conference with the 4 new cars next week once Boardman is back from his trip to the SW? The diner car is after all named the Albany.


----------



## MikefromCrete

afigg said:


> FreeskierInVT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on today's southbound Adirondack that is currently sitting outside ALB waiting for an open platform. Spotted the new cars sitting about 100 yards behind us. I was focused on my calc homework in my lap and the "retro" livery certainly caught my eye! Fumbled with my phone and could only get a pic of the baggage car at the end of the test train
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the photo! The baggage car is still a new Viewliner, even if it has been out in the wild for several months. I wonder why they moved the 61000 baggage car up to Albany? Did they do that for testing the connections between all 4 car types or is there a plan for a dog & pony show/press conference with the 4 new cars next week once Boardman is back from his trip to the SW? The diner car is after all named the Albany.
Click to expand...

Probably both: a press extravaganza with all four cars, then testing of all four cars together.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> 3. The worst have got to be the ones we're talking about most in this thread - the Single Level sleeper trains. The Viewliners are _almost_ the same height as the P42s. If there were ONLY Viewliners in a consist, and the livery was good, it would look fantastic. But I don't think there is any plan to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells - who needs 12' ceilings in coach?


The plan is certainly to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells if they ever get the money for it. What's the value? *More overhead luggage storage*. A lot more. (I assume the coaches would have only one row of windows.)


----------



## VentureForth

Well, allow me to backtrack a bit. I would quite prefer a full-viewliner consist. From the P42s to the baggage to the coach, diner, and sleepers, it would be a very good looking consist.

I wonder if people would get caught sleeping in the baggage racks in coach, if they keep the upper window!

Oh wait a minute. We're missing something here.

There's been no discussion about replacing the cafe cars.

Oh, that'd be a major ick to have all Viewliner IIs and an AmCan Cafe in the middle!

I do NOT like going back to the pointless arrow! You know how many road signs they had to change to get the swoopy track logo?


----------



## Blackwolf

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3. The worst have got to be the ones we're talking about most in this thread - the Single Level sleeper trains. The Viewliners are _almost_ the same height as the P42s. If there were ONLY Viewliners in a consist, and the livery was good, it would look fantastic. But I don't think there is any plan to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells - who needs 12' ceilings in coach?
> 
> 
> 
> The plan is certainly to replace the coaches with Viewliner shells if they ever get the money for it. What's the value? *More overhead luggage storage*. A lot more. (I assume the coaches would have only one row of windows.)
Click to expand...

Maybe only one level of windows, but they could be REALLY BIG windows! That'd be a major selling point: "Big, beautiful scenery right at your seat! Now, with Amtrak's new Viewliner fleet, you never miss a moment of the action outside, thanks to our giant over-sized windows at every row. So, go on and stare (but try not to get too excited. It fogs up the glass!)"


----------



## crescent2

I'm OK with the stripes and colors but I don't like that arrow thingy, either. It looks so dated and it never looked aerodynamic. (Not that they are likely to consult me!)


----------



## Blackwolf

VentureForth said:


> Well, allow me to backtrack a bit. I would quite prefer a full-viewliner consist. From the P42s to the baggage to the coach, diner, and sleepers, it would be a very good looking consist.
> 
> I wonder if people would get caught sleeping in the baggage racks in coach, if they keep the upper window!
> 
> Oh wait a minute. We're missing something here.
> 
> There's been no discussion about replacing the cafe cars.
> 
> Oh, that'd be a major ick to have all Viewliner IIs and an AmCan Cafe in the middle!
> 
> I do NOT like going back to the pointless arrow! You know how many road signs they had to change to get the swoopy track logo?


At least here in SAC they're at no risk of trouble on the signage front. We're still sporting 100% Pointless Arrow Amtrak signs on all signposts. They never changed them, and I don't think they ever will.


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

Blackwolf said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, allow me to backtrack a bit. I would quite prefer a full-viewliner consist. From the P42s to the baggage to the coach, diner, and sleepers, it would be a very good looking consist.
> 
> I wonder if people would get caught sleeping in the baggage racks in coach, if they keep the upper window!
> 
> Oh wait a minute. We're missing something here.
> 
> There's been no discussion about replacing the cafe cars.
> 
> Oh, that'd be a major ick to have all Viewliner IIs and an AmCan Cafe in the middle!
> 
> I do NOT like going back to the pointless arrow! You know how many road signs they had to change to get the swoopy track logo?
> 
> 
> 
> At least here in SAC they're at no risk of trouble on the signage front. We're still sporting 100% Pointless Arrow Amtrak signs on all signposts. They never changed them, and I don't think they ever will.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that myself. There are so many signs in various parts of the country with the older logo still on them, it would hardly matter.


----------



## neroden

Searching by car number on railpictures.net finds the following:

- baggage: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?road_number=AMTK%2061000

- sleeper: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?road_number=AMTK%2062500

- diner: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?road_number=AMTK%2068000

- bag-dorm: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?road_number=AMTK%2069000

A few things show up from these very nice photos (credit to John Sesonske for all of them so far).

- You can see the fairing underneath the cars. It's black and looks rubberized (though it's hard to tell). It runs between the bogies (it's not present on either end). This is probably to insulate and protect the under-floor equipment (not really for streamlining). There is a shiny-metal section of fairing directly under the HVAC vents which seems to have some controls and possibly some vents. It'll be interesting to see up close how the underfloor equipment is handled, but hopefully it will be resistant to the freezing problems which the earlier generation of equipment had.

- The "car number" adjustable board (for displaying which sleeping car is which for reservation-holders) is quite visible (being in the middle of the white stripe). It is present on the bag-dorm as well as the sleeper, indicating that Amtrak is planning to sell space in the bag-dorm, at least occasionally. 

- If you look carefully, since the sleeper/bag-dorm/diner photos were all taken at once, you can see the test train configuration: locomotive - dining car (kitchen end / seating end) - sleeping car (bedroom end / roomette end) - bag-dorm (dorm end / baggage end) - baggage car. This is a pretty realistic configuration, especially now that the sleepers are running in the rear of the trains year-round.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> Oh wait a minute. We're missing something here.
> 
> There's been no discussion about replacing the cafe cars.


Yeah. I think many of us would love to see Viewliner cafe-lounge-OBSERVATION cars. Preferably with panoramic roof windows like the Superliner Sightseer Lounges, but even the ordinary double windows would be an improvement over the cramped little windows of the Amfleets. But Amtrak hasn't talked about cafe car replacement at all so far.


----------



## crescent2

Neroden, thanks for the photo links!

No doubt this has been discussed a dozen times and I've just missed it, but why doesn't the sleeper car have the upper windows on more of it?


----------



## Ryan

I'm pretty sure that's the hallway that runs past the bedrooms, it doesn't have the upper level of windows.


----------



## crescent2

Thanks, Ryan, that makes sense. I don't recall whether the current ones have the upper windows in the hallway or not. I was hoping they hadn't removed them from the bedrooms!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The section without it is the hallway outside the bedrooms.


----------



## crescent2

Thanks, GML. I hadn't thought of that although I could tell it was the BR end of the car.

They'd just better not mess with "my" bedrooms! LOL Actually, it's only the H unit that was "mine." (not any more) Hopefully it's not changing too much? It sure is a nice unit.

Do you think many sleepers will actually be in service by next spring?


----------



## William W.

crescent2 said:


> Thanks, GML. I hadn't thought of that although I could tell it was the BR end of the car.
> 
> They'd just better not mess with "my" bedrooms! LOL Actually, it's only the H unit that was "mine." (not any more) Hopefully it's not changing too much? It sure is a nice unit.
> 
> Do you think many sleepers will actually be in service by next spring?


Once (if) they pass testing, I'd imagine that Amtrak would put them into service ASAP. I'm not sure how much testing each subsequent new car will need (I'd imagine much less than these first fours cars).


----------



## MattW

This may have been answered, but does anyone know why they didn't put a vestibule on the diner, other than "our other diners don't?"


----------



## Green Maned Lion

It takes up valuable space, frankly.


----------



## VentureForth

Long Train Runnin' said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, allow me to backtrack a bit. I would quite prefer a full-viewliner consist. From the P42s to the baggage to the coach, diner, and sleepers, it would be a very good looking consist.
> 
> I wonder if people would get caught sleeping in the baggage racks in coach, if they keep the upper window!
> 
> Oh wait a minute. We're missing something here.
> 
> There's been no discussion about replacing the cafe cars.
> 
> Oh, that'd be a major ick to have all Viewliner IIs and an AmCan Cafe in the middle!
> 
> I do NOT like going back to the pointless arrow! You know how many road signs they had to change to get the swoopy track logo?
> 
> 
> 
> At least here in SAC they're at no risk of trouble on the signage front. We're still sporting 100% Pointless Arrow Amtrak signs on all signposts. They never changed them, and I don't think they ever will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was thinking that myself. There are so many signs in various parts of the country with the older logo still on them, it would hardly matter.
Click to expand...

The problem is that where all the old signage exists is NOT where "Amtrak America" will be running. 



William W. said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, GML. I hadn't thought of that although I could tell it was the BR end of the car.
> 
> They'd just better not mess with "my" bedrooms! LOL Actually, it's only the H unit that was "mine." (not any more) Hopefully it's not changing too much? It sure is a nice unit.
> 
> Do you think many sleepers will actually be in service by next spring?
> 
> 
> 
> Once (if) they pass testing, I'd imagine that Amtrak would put them into service ASAP. I'm not sure how much testing each subsequent new car will need (I'd imagine much less than these first fours cars).
Click to expand...

 The fact that they are testing all four flavors simultaneously is encouraging. It shows that their plan to enter revenue service is agressive!



MattW said:


> This may have been answered, but does anyone know why they didn't put a vestibule on the diner, other than "our other diners don't?"


The purpose of a vestibule is to load and unload passengers. They don't want folks boarding the train in the diner. Too hard to manage. The diner has a crew access door, but that's all they need.


----------



## neroden

It is unlikely that many sleepers will be in service by next spring. After the "test cars", the last plan announced involved building all the diners, then all the bag-dorms, then all the sleepers, with the baggage cars on a separate production line.

As a result, by next spring, the Heritage diners are likely to be completely gone, but I wouldn't expect many of the new sleepers to be in service.

I'm sure every car which is ready will go into service ASAP; it's just unlikely that there will be more than 2 sleepers by early spring.


----------



## MattW

VentureForth said:


> Long Train Runnin' said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, allow me to backtrack a bit. I would quite prefer a full-viewliner consist. From the P42s to the baggage to the coach, diner, and sleepers, it would be a very good looking consist.
> 
> I wonder if people would get caught sleeping in the baggage racks in coach, if they keep the upper window!
> 
> Oh wait a minute. We're missing something here.
> 
> There's been no discussion about replacing the cafe cars.
> 
> Oh, that'd be a major ick to have all Viewliner IIs and an AmCan Cafe in the middle!
> 
> I do NOT like going back to the pointless arrow! You know how many road signs they had to change to get the swoopy track logo?
> 
> 
> 
> At least here in SAC they're at no risk of trouble on the signage front. We're still sporting 100% Pointless Arrow Amtrak signs on all signposts. They never changed them, and I don't think they ever will.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was thinking that myself. There are so many signs in various parts of the country with the older logo still on them, it would hardly matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is that where all the old signage exists is NOT where "Amtrak America" will be running.
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, GML. I hadn't thought of that although I could tell it was the BR end of the car.
> 
> They'd just better not mess with "my" bedrooms! LOL Actually, it's only the H unit that was "mine." (not any more) Hopefully it's not changing too much? It sure is a nice unit.
> 
> Do you think many sleepers will actually be in service by next spring?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once (if) they pass testing, I'd imagine that Amtrak would put them into service ASAP. I'm not sure how much testing each subsequent new car will need (I'd imagine much less than these first fours cars).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fact that they are testing all four flavors simultaneously is encouraging. It shows that their plan to enter revenue service is agressive!
> 
> 
> 
> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may have been answered, but does anyone know why they didn't put a vestibule on the diner, other than "our other diners don't?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The purpose of a vestibule is to load and unload passengers. They don't want folks boarding the train in the diner. Too hard to manage. The diner has a crew access door, but that's all they need.
Click to expand...

Right, but it wouldn't have to be trainlined (if the rest even are), but as I remember, keeping a vestibule next to the diner was one of the original reasons for running the eastern LD trains reversed, in case of an evacuation. I would think that Amtrak would want to have this flexibility so they wouldn't be so constrained on car direction.


----------



## William W.

neroden said:


> It is unlikely that many sleepers will be in service by next spring. After the "test cars", the last plan announced involved building all the diners, then all the bag-dorms, then all the sleepers, with the baggage cars on a separate production line.
> 
> As a result, by next spring, the Heritage diners are likely to be completely gone, but I wouldn't expect many of the new sleepers to be in service.
> 
> I'm sure every car which is ready will go into service ASAP; it's just unlikely that there will be more than 2 sleepers by early spring.


That's probably the best order, quite frankly. The heritage diners have served well over the years, but need to be replaced ASAP. Same thing for the baggage cars. I can see why the sleepers have a lower priority (yes, there is a shortage, but the Viewliner Is aren't falling apart like the heritage equipment is).

I'm glad that I'll get a to see a heritage diner on the Silver Star next week, before they're gone forever.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> It is unlikely that many sleepers will be in service by next spring. After the "test cars", the last plan announced involved building all the diners, then all the bag-dorms, then all the sleepers, with the baggage cars on a separate production line.
> 
> As a result, by next spring, the Heritage diners are likely to be completely gone, but I wouldn't expect many of the new sleepers to be in service.
> 
> I'm sure every car which is ready will go into service ASAP; it's just unlikely that there will be more than 2 sleepers by early spring.


We need to remember that the first diner, sleeper, bag-dorm cars were delivered for testing only this past week. There are months of testing ahead. It is not just testing and certification, training and familiarization on the new Viewliners for the maintenance, service, and operating crews at multiple facilities has to be completed as well before the new cars can enter service. If the first set of new diner cars enter service in December or January, which could be optimistic, there are 20 Heritage diners to be replaced with 5 additional diner cars to enter the fleet. Also, given the history of delays for the CAF production, reasonable to expect that issues will be discovered during testing that will require some changes, hopefully only minor ones. So I think odds are that there will be heritage diners in service into the summer of 2015.

In the FY14 budget and FY14-18 Five Year financial plan which was released a few months ago, it states that the final CAF car is expected to enter revenue service by March 2016. So, if there are no more serious schedule slips and they are sticking to the diner, bag-dorm, sleeper production order, after the 2 test/shakedown cars, the rest of the sleeper cars probably won't start to enter revenue service until late 2015.

If plans stays close to schedule, 2016 will be a big year for new equipment. The ACS-64s and 130 CAF Viewliners should all be delivered by early 2016. The Nippon-Sharyo corridor bi-level cars should be entering revenue service in quantity. The Siemens Charger locomotives should start to enter service by mid to late 2016, easing the demands on the P-42 fleet which may be struggling to keep enough units in daily service by then. 2016, the year of foamer overload....


----------



## Amtrak172

FreeskierInVT said:


> I'm on today's southbound Adirondack that is currently sitting outside ALB waiting for an open platform. Spotted the new cars sitting about 100 yards behind us. I was focused on my calc homework in my lap and the "retro" livery certainly caught my eye! Fumbled with my phone and could only get a pic of the baggage car at the end of the test train
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpeg


Saw the same train!

Amtrak172


----------



## Amtrak172

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Amtrak's not going back to the old pointless arrow logo. AMTRAK SAID that the first of every new Viewliner II to be produced will have the older Amtrak pointless arrow logo (Amtrak America logo). The current Amtrak logo will return on the standard production of cars.

Amtrak172


----------



## Ryan

I believe that's correct.


----------



## rickycourtney

Amtrak172 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but, Amtrak's not going back to the old pointless arrow logo. AMTRAK SAID that the first of every new Viewliner II to be produced will have the older Amtrak pointless arrow logo (Amtrak America logo). The current Amtrak logo will return on the standard production of cars.
> 
> Amtrak172


Is the same true for the rest of the livery? Only the first few cars in this special phase "IIIb" and the rest in phase IVb?


----------



## jis

No

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

crescent2 said:


> They'd just better not mess with "my" bedrooms! LOL Actually, it's only the H unit that was "mine." (not any more) Hopefully it's not changing too much? It sure is a nice unit.


Well it good you don't need a "H" room at this time. Of the two major changes from a Viewliner 1 to a Viewliner 2. The "H" bedroom get a big change. In short it becomes a roomette, not a bedroom. Yes it can fit a wheelchair, and the bunk is left to right, but the private bathroom is gone. The public restroom just out side the door is wheelchair accessible.

The other major change is the no toilet in the roomette. One accessible unit up front, two in rear standard bathroom to the rear.


----------



## crescent2

Hubby needed the H unit, and he passed away a couple of years ago.

I'm sorry to hear they're making a major change to the H unit; I think it was the best unit on any of the trains. I suppose it took up too much space. So the restroom is not even inside it any more? That seems much less "accessible" but I'm sure it's within ADA guidelines or they couldn't do it.

I knew the toilets were gone from the roommettes; opinions sure vary about that! Thanks for your post.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Sorry about that, poor use of "good". Strange at my age I can still plant my foot in my mouth.


----------



## Amtrak172

rickycourtney said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but, Amtrak's not going back to the old pointless arrow logo. AMTRAK SAID that the first of every new Viewliner II to be produced will have the older Amtrak pointless arrow logo (Amtrak America logo). The current Amtrak logo will return on the standard production of cars.
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> 
> 
> Is the same true for the rest of the livery? Only the first few cars in this special phase "IIIb" and the rest in phase IVb?
Click to expand...

No, all of the new Amtrak Viewliner II's will have the Phase III striping. The first of every new car to be produced will have the older Amtrak logo. The standard production of the cars will be delivered with Amtrak's Phase III stripping and Amtrak's current logo.

Amtrak172


----------



## NE933

So the H room will not have a toilet anymore? Will they stil have a shower?


----------



## MikefromCrete

Are you sure there will be no toilet in the H room? I knew the toilets were being removed from the roomettes but I thought the bedrooms and handicapped room would keep theirs. Removing the toilets would certainly make the rooms less accessible even with an accessible restroom at the H room end of the car.


----------



## MikefromCrete

I just found a floor plan for the Viewliner II sleeper. The accessible washroom is directly connected to the H room. There is no door to the aisle. So the H room will have its own washroom.


----------



## printman2000

MikefromCrete said:


> I just found a floor plan for the Viewliner II sleeper. The accessible washroom is directly connected to the H room. There is no door to the aisle. So the H room will have its own washroom.


Can you share the link?


----------



## MikefromCrete

I'm not very technical, just Google Viewliner II sleeper floor plan.


----------



## printman2000

MikefromCrete said:


> I'm not very technical, just Google Viewliner II sleeper floor plan.


That was the first thing I did but I only see current Viewliner floor plans.


----------



## MikefromCrete

On second look, it appears I found a Viewliner I floor plan. Sorry about that. I guess I jumped into this discussion with improper knowledge.


----------



## printman2000

MikefromCrete said:


> On second look, it appears I found a Viewliner I floor plan. Sorry about that. I guess I jumped into this discussion with improper knowledge.


I did not think I had ever seen any floorplans for the Viewliner II's. I would assume if there were any, they would be in this thread.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ryan

I've seen them, I think that it still has the in room toilet, but I may be misremembering. October was a long time ago


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html

Seem I had a fail to recall, or they had a change of design. The Viewliner 2 "H" room has been change, but not the way I was thinking, and not for the better IMHO. The bathroom is now in room like the Superliners with bathroom right next to the bed. I would hope a shower curtain can be pulled across.

Me bad.

Or maybe I have the Finland sleeper on my brain. Nice double decker wide gauge made by TALGO.


----------



## crescent2

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Sorry about that, poor use of "good". Strange at my age I can still plant my foot in my mouth.


No worries and no apology needed! My post in no way indicated that someone other than me had needed the H unit. I would have interpreted my post exactly the same way you did.

As for me, I break out in hoof and mouth disease even more than I did when I was younger. LOL (Ask Ryan about his temporary avatar.)

Thanks for posting the link to the new Viewliners. The design of the new H unit has pros and cons, but the pros are probably more important. Personally, I like the old design better, and hubby would have too, but his limitations weren't so great that we couldn't get him into the private bathroom and then he could close the door and manage without help. Honestly, though, for those with severe mobility limitations, the new design will probably be much easier to transfer to from a wheelchair. I'm very glad there is no need to go into the hall to get into the restroom; that would have been more difficult.


----------



## hastybob

These are the first high quality photos that I have found of the new Viewliner cars:

Diner 68000 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=489037&nseq=0

Sleeper 62500 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=489036&nseq=1

Bagg/Dorm 69000 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=489034&nseq=2

Baggage 61000 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=482622&nseq=3

Bob


----------



## FreeskierInVT

Looking good!


----------



## gaspeamtrak

Yes ! They look great! Thanks for finding them!


----------



## William W.

I'm looking forward to seeing good interior images of each car (I've pictures of the modules from CAF's website, but none of the complete cars).

I'm especially interested in the dining car, and the baggage-dorm.


----------



## Bob Dylan

William W. said:


> I'm looking forward to seeing good interior images of each car (I've pictures of the modules from CAF's website, but none of the complete cars).
> 
> I'm especially interested in the dining car, and the baggage-dorm.


Google up Viewliner Diner 8400/. There's videos of the Interior!( YouTube and Google) It's been in service on the LSL and Silver Trains and the new Diners will be similar! I've been fortunate to have eaten in it several times, nice!


----------



## afigg

hastybob said:


> These are the first high quality photos that I have found of the new Viewliner cars:
> 
> Diner 68000 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=489037&nseq=0
> 
> Sleeper 62500 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=489036&nseq=1
> 
> Bagg/Dorm 69000 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=489034&nseq=2
> 
> Baggage 61000 - http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=482622&nseq=3
> 
> Bob


BTW, the links to these photos were posted earlier in this thread on July 11. But, since some people may have missed the post, no harm in posting the links again as there are not that many detailed photos available yet.

I am also interested in interior photos, especially of the sleeper and bag-dorm cars. We have earlier interior photos of a new baggage car and the new diner car should be very close to the rebuilt 8400. But it would be useful to see photos showing the interior layout of the sleeper for any notable differences (beyond what we know) and the bag-dorm to get a read on how much room there is on the baggage end.

Since all 4 cars are in Albany and the diner car is named the Albany, I continue to think there are plans for a press conference and show & tell in the near future. If not in Albany, then in DC with politicians from NY state.


----------



## William W.

jimhudson said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing good interior images of each car (I've pictures of the modules from CAF's website, but none of the complete cars).
> 
> I'm especially interested in the dining car, and the baggage-dorm.
> 
> 
> 
> Google up Viewliner Diner 8400/. There's videos of the Interior!( YouTube and Google) It's been in service on the LSL and Silver Trains and the new Diners will be similar! I've been fortunate to have eaten in it several times, nice!
Click to expand...

Wasn't 8400 out of service for the first part of this year? (I thought I heard that someone left it out in the cold in January, unpowered, which caused it to freeze solid).

Whether this is true or not, the Viewliner Is have never liked the cold. Hopefully the Viewliner IIs will correct that problem.


----------



## jis

Any car left out in the cold without power that has not been properly prepared for such storage will freeze. Or so I was informed by a guy from Alaska Railroad. Amtrak likes to blame cars when the real problem is lack of facilities to care for them properly or some such.

8400 has been back in service for many months now.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## William W.

jis said:


> Any car left out in the cold without power that has not been properly prepared for such storage will freeze. Or so I was informed by a guy from Alaska Railroad. Amtrak likes to blame cars when the real problem is lack of facilities to care for them properly or some such.
> 
> 8400 has been back in service for many months now.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


I figured that it was back in service, I had been meaning to ask that and just now remembered.


----------



## William W.

Photo from July 15th of the Rensselaer, NY Amtrak yard.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Any car left out in the cold without power that has not been properly prepared for such storage will freeze. Or so I was informed by a guy from Alaska Railroad. Amtrak likes to blame cars when the real problem is lack of facilities to care for them properly or some such.


Viewliners do tend to freeze up when powered and on the road, too, though. (Though not as bad as the Horizons, by all accounts.) The planned remedy was to put some insulation around the underfloor equipment. From the photos, this has been done on the Viewliner IIs. Last I head it discussed (a few years ago), this was going to be retrofitted onto the Viewliner Is as well, at some point.
Also, nearly all cars are going to be left in the cold without power intermittently (for less than 12 hours) in the winter; they have to have some resilience.


----------



## jis

Looks like more Viewliners are getting their Phase III stripes at CAF (photo linked below is from Rich Martin's post on Facebook. Mods, please convert to a link if that is more appropriate from IPR perspective)


----------



## Amfleeter

jis said:


> Looks like more Viewliners are getting their Phase III stripes at CAF (photo linked below is from Rich Martin's post on Facebook. Mods, please convert to a link if that is more appropriate from IPR perspective)


Looks like it has its trucks on already, too, if you take a close look.


----------



## William W.

Indeed. Hopefully that means there will be another set coming out soon. As soon as that happens, and once the testing is finished (without any problems, hopefully), I'm banking on the Cardinal getting the first round of bag-dorms and diners (it's the only train that can make use of only two new cars, so that seems to be the most likely assignment). That, and I would opine that the Cardinal would make the most use of the new cars, as the expanded revenue space will help the route's bottom line, and the lack of real diners would be rectified.

One can only hope.


----------



## MikefromCrete

I think the Cardinal will be the last train to get the new equipment. Other trains with much larger ridership will take precedence. The Cardinal will eventually get a dorm/baggage and maybe an extra sleeper, but I doubt if it will get a full diner considering the current effort to slash food service losses.


----------



## jis

My usually reliable source did say that Cardinal will get a Diner. But I suppose that is neither here, nor there.


----------



## Ryan

Given that it's the only train with sleeping cars and no diner, that's a safe bet.


----------



## battalion51

I'd actually be willing to guess the first trains to see a Bag-Dorm would be the New York side of the LSL or the Silver Star. While the Star can't give up its full baggage car, it certainly could stand to have the revenue space opened up for paying passengers on a high demand route. The New York side of the LSL could give up its full bag car (since the Boston side will still have one) and there's probably sufficient demand for the revenue space in spite of having a total of three sleepers when it's combined with the Boston side.


----------



## William W.

battalion51 said:


> I'd actually be willing to guess the first trains to see a Bag-Dorm would be the New York side of the LSL or the Silver Star. While the Star can't give up its full baggage car, it certainly could stand to have the revenue space opened up for paying passengers on a high demand route. The New York side of the LSL could give up its full bag car (since the Boston side will still have one) and there's probably sufficient demand for the revenue space in spite of having a total of three sleepers when it's combined with the Boston side.


The issue regarding the Cardinal is that it only has one sleeper, and the crew takes up 3-4 of the roomettes. Adding a bag-dorm would provide the biggest instant benefit, and would allow for the elimination of the full baggage cars, since the Cardinal is a low-volume route, baggage-wise. If the other eastern LD trains provide the baseline for equipment, revenue sleeper space, and service, the Cardinal would clearly fall below that baseline. It is important to get that route up to the same level as the rest of system.

There's also the fact that since the Cardinal only has two train sets, it is the only train that would benefit from only receiving two diners, or bag-dorms. The rest of the eastern LD trains run with three or more sets. The CAF order is set to deliver 2 of each type of car first.


----------



## jis

What I could gather is that the New York section at present loses usually 6 but maybe upto 8 roomettes to staff (depends on how many Coaches it has). Roughly speaking, only 8 or 9 roomettes are sold in each Viewliner in the New York Section. Adding a Bag Dorm would release those 6 to 8 roomettes for revenue use. The Boston section normally loses only 3 roomettes for staff AFAIR.


----------



## battalion51

William W. said:


> battalion51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd actually be willing to guess the first trains to see a Bag-Dorm would be the New York side of the LSL or the Silver Star. While the Star can't give up its full baggage car, it certainly could stand to have the revenue space opened up for paying passengers on a high demand route. The New York side of the LSL could give up its full bag car (since the Boston side will still have one) and there's probably sufficient demand for the revenue space in spite of having a total of three sleepers when it's combined with the Boston side.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue regarding the Cardinal is that it only has one sleeper, and the crew takes up 3-4 of the roomettes. Adding a bag-dorm would provide the biggest instant benefit, and would allow for the elimination of the full baggage cars, since the Cardinal is a low-volume route, baggage-wise. If the other eastern LD trains provide the baseline for equipment, revenue sleeper space, and service, the Cardinal would clearly fall below that baseline. It is important to get that route up to the same level as the rest of system.
> 
> There's also the fact that since the Cardinal only has two train sets, it is the only train that would benefit from only receiving two diners, or bag-dorms. The rest of the eastern LD trains run with three or more sets. The CAF order is set to deliver 2 of each type of car first.
Click to expand...

William I don't disagree with you. However, there's two things at play. It seems like lately they have been running two sleepers on the Cardinal, I don't know if this is a temporary thing, or if it will be permanent, so that drops the Cardinal's need for a bag-dorm tremendously. Additionally, the Star is a logical choice because all of the Viewliners will be Miami based for their major Mechanical needs. While I realize the LSL and Cardinal have the same origin and destination the LSL is much more heavily patronized than the Cardinal is. The utility of the LSL is also much higher since it is a daily train that only requires three sets. The Cardinal sets sit idle roughly half the week whereas the LSL sets are idle for maybe 48 hours in total in a week (an LSL set can do a minimum of two round trips a week and be en route the seventh day, while the Cardinal sets will do a round trip and a half).


----------



## William W.

The Cardinal running with two sleepers seems to be a temporary deal, unfortunately.

I think that what must be figured out when deciding how sleeping cars are assigned is A: whether the amount of space provided will be filled on any given day, and B: the number of passengers demanding sleepers. If the amount of space provided satisfies most of the demand, then the inventory supplied was sufficient. If, on the other hand, there is a significant number of customers who are unable to secure sleeping car accommodations, due to a lack of space, that seems to indicate that additional space is needed. The latter situation occurs perpetually on the Cardinal. I'm not sure what the situation is on the other eastern LD trains, but it can't be nearly as bad. I would tend to think that from a revenue perspective, the gain from the assignment of the bag-dorms to the Cardinal would be greater, but that's just my opinion. You could very well end up being right. Especially when one considers that the Cardinal always seems to get the short end of the stick.


----------



## neroden

I think we'll see some complex reallocations of equipment as they are phased into service. There's going to be one set of assignments which is most appropriate when there are only two Viewliner IIs of each type -- and that's bag-dorms on the Cardinal, because it's the only train running with two sets. Then, when the additional bag-dorms start being commissioned, it's perfectly likely that the Cardinal could go back to having a full baggage car as the larger number of bag-dorms are assigned to other trains.

I'm betting on the first two dining cars going to the Lake Shore Limited; with #4800 that would provide the three needed, and the new cars are supposed to be more cold-resistant, which is most important on the LSL.


----------



## mfastx

Looking pretty spiffy.


----------



## NE933

Two quickies:

1. The Cardinal must, must get, as was mentioned, a baggage dorm to allow for more sleeper space, as well as a full diner. That would make the train complete for the first time in over 15 years. But we still have the issue of CSX and the Buckingham Branch constraints. Hopefully some of the projects that are taking place will solve that a little.

2. Amtrak has to consider building a Viewliner facility in New York Sunnyside. It is simple inefficient and uneconomical to send these railcars a thousand + miles to Hialeah in Miami for maintenance and fixing, then perhaps another 1,000 mile deadhead. I know it's what we have now, but for the future, esp if a greater number of Viewliners start replacing the long distance fleet, this set up is just too time consuming.


----------



## Slasharoo

I'm not sure about the diner going on the Cardinal. I am not convinced that Amtrak wants to add any staff to that train.


----------



## William W.

NE933 said:


> Two quickies:
> 
> 1. The Cardinal must, must get, as was mentioned, a baggage dorm to allow for more sleeper space, as well as a full diner. That would make the train complete for the first time in over 15 years. But we still have the issue of CSX and the Buckingham Branch constraints. Hopefully some of the projects that are taking place will solve that a little.
> 
> 2. Amtrak has to consider building a Viewliner facility in New York Sunnyside. It is simple inefficient and uneconomical to send these railcars a thousand + miles to Hialeah in Miami for maintenance and fixing, then perhaps another 1,000 mile deadhead. I know it's what we have now, but for the future, esp if a greater number of Viewliners start replacing the long distance fleet, this set up is just too time consuming.


There isn't a Viewliner facility in NYC? That city sees more Viewliners than any other.



Slasharoo said:


> I'm not sure about the diner going on the Cardinal. I am not convinced that Amtrak wants to add any staff to that train.


It would be silly for Amtrak not to add actual diners to that train, especially if they are available. If they add a bag dorm, or an additional sleeper, a diner-lite would have trouble handling the increase in customers. An actual diner is essential for the other improvements to the Cardinal to be effective. In terms of the need for additional crew, I would think that the cost would be made up for by the additional revenue sleeping space, and the increased ability for coach passengers to use the diner (very few are able to use it currently, due to the limited seating capacity, and the inadequate amount of food that the diner-lite is able to carry).


----------



## afigg

Slasharoo said:


> I'm not sure about the diner going on the Cardinal. I am not convinced that Amtrak wants to add any staff to that train.


The Cardinal has better ridership numbers per train than the CL or the CONO. The total numbers look low because of 3 days a week and the single Viewliner sleeper on it (not counting the recent 2 sleeper trains mixed with the single sleeper consist). The Cardinal benefits from serving multiple markets along its route. Amtrak ordered enough bag-dorms and diners to equip the Cardinal, so when the CAF order is completed, I expect that Cardinal will end up with a bag-dorm, 2 sleepers, and a new diner car. When or if it goes to daily service is another matter to be determined by Amtrak's annual funding and the status of the BBRR and CSX.
We probably have around 5-6 months left to speculate on what the deployment sequence will be of the initial Viewliner II equipment before we see what Amtrak actually does. Then another 15-18 months after that of adding in the rest of the 130 cars.


----------



## William W.

afigg said:


> Slasharoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about the diner going on the Cardinal. I am not convinced that Amtrak wants to add any staff to that train.
> 
> 
> 
> The Cardinal has better ridership numbers per train than the CL or the CONO. The total numbers look low because of 3 days a week and the single Viewliner sleeper on it (not counting the recent 2 sleeper trains mixed with the single sleeper consist). The Cardinal benefits from serving multiple markets along its route. Amtrak ordered enough bag-dorms and diners to equip the Cardinal, so when the CAF order is completed, I expect that Cardinal will end up with a bag-dorm, 2 sleepers, and a new diner car. When or if it goes to daily service is another matter to be determined by Amtrak's annual funding and the status of the BBRR and CSX.
> We probably have around 5-6 months left to speculate on what the deployment sequence will be of the initial Viewliner II equipment before we see what Amtrak actually does. Then another 15-18 months after that of adding in the rest of the 130 cars.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what the status of BBRR's track work is, but last time I heard, it was proceeding well. Virginia has really stepped up to give them the funding they need. I think that the major obstacle to a daily Cardinal is the lack of equipment (daily service would require a third, or even fourth consist). I'd be willing to bet that the Cardinal won't go to daily service until the current CAF order has been completed.


----------



## William W.

neroden said:


> I think we'll see some complex reallocations of equipment as they are phased into service. There's going to be one set of assignments which is most appropriate when there are only two Viewliner IIs of each type -- and that's bag-dorms on the Cardinal, because it's the only train running with two sets. Then, when the additional bag-dorms start being commissioned, it's perfectly likely that the Cardinal could go back to having a full baggage car as the larger number of bag-dorms are assigned to other trains.
> 
> I'm betting on the first two dining cars going to the Lake Shore Limited; with #4800 that would provide the three needed, and the new cars are supposed to be more cold-resistant, which is most important on the LSL.


Would you think that they would retire the LSL's heritage diners outright, or move them to other routes (like the Cardinal), or just keep them as spares until all the new diners are delivered?


----------



## Ryan

Depends on what condition they're in, when they're due for inspections, and how far along the new diners are in the pipeline. If they're in good shape, current on inspections and Amtrak expects to get some new VL2 Diners reasonably soon, that may be a smart course of action.


----------



## jis

Also note that there are no specific Heritage Diners assigned to the LSL. It gets whatever is available at the time, and the actual cars change quite often. I believe cars will be withdrawn as their need disappears. I would be surprised if the Cardinal gets a Heritage Diner for a while, but that could happen. It all depends on many things.


----------



## neroden

William W. said:


> I think that the major obstacle to a daily Cardinal is the lack of equipment (daily service would require a third, or even fourth consist).


I've been told it would only need three consists, which looks right based on the timetable. On the current schedule it would have to meet the opposing Cardinal between Charlottesville and Staunton, and again between Cincinnati and Connersville.



William W. said:


> Would you think that they would retire the LSL's heritage diners outright, or move them to other routes (like the Cardinal), or just keep them as spares until all the new diners are delivered?


Keep them as spares in the pool of diners -- because it's obvious there aren't enough spares in the pool right now, with Amfleet II cafes being substituted occasionally.


----------



## cpamtfan

The main reason the Viewliners main maintienence base is in Miami is to thaw them out in the winter, plain and simple. I don't understand why they need a specific Viewliner shop in Sunnyside, as there is not hardly any space for one. Money needs not be wasted on a specific facility when that doesn't exactly solve any issues.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that the major obstacle to a daily Cardinal is the lack of equipment (daily service would require a third, or even fourth consist).
> 
> 
> 
> I've been told it would only need three consists, which looks right based on the timetable. On the current schedule it would have to meet the opposing Cardinal between Charlottesville and Staunton, and again between Cincinnati and Connersville.
Click to expand...

Yes, it can be done with three, but with the current schedules it will tight and can be expected to be quite unreliable, given the quality of time keeping on the Cardinal route. I would expect occasional cancellation of a service to get things back on time. The occasions would likely be more frequent than is observed for most other trains.


cpamtfan said:


> The main reason the Viewliners main maintienence base is in Miami is to thaw them out in the winter, plain and simple. I don't understand why they need a specific Viewliner shop in Sunnyside, as there is not hardly any space for one. Money needs not be wasted on a specific facility when that doesn't exactly solve any issues.


I agree there is no need for a Viewliner shop in Sunnyside. The fewer hours they spend in Sunnyside the better it is for their health.  Amfleet IIs are also not homed in Sunnyside, and that is fine too.


----------



## VentureForth

Looking at Google Maps around Sunnyside, I can't believe the businesses with the best view of The Yard are Self-Storage warehouses. I think (particularly on the Northern side) there would be opportunities for high end lofts with fantastic views of the Yard operations.

Now, this not being a railfan-tasy, generally people enjoy views of activities - whether natural or human activity. Provide ample sound proofing, and it could be a fascinating place to live. Of course, the surrounding area... Dunno...


----------



## edjbox

I believe the Cardinal will get a full diner but only after all of the new diners have been delivered


----------



## William W.

jis said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that the major obstacle to a daily Cardinal is the lack of equipment (daily service would require a third, or even fourth consist).
> 
> 
> 
> I've been told it would only need three consists, which looks right based on the timetable. On the current schedule it would have to meet the opposing Cardinal between Charlottesville and Staunton, and again between Cincinnati and Connersville.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, it can be done with three, but with the current schedules it will tight and can be expected to be quite unreliable, given the quality of time keeping on the Cardinal route. I would expect occasional cancellation of a service to get things back on time. The occasions would likely be more frequent than is observed for most other trains.
> 
> 
> cpamtfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The main reason the Viewliners main maintienence base is in Miami is to thaw them out in the winter, plain and simple. I don't understand why they need a specific Viewliner shop in Sunnyside, as there is not hardly any space for one. Money needs not be wasted on a specific facility when that doesn't exactly solve any issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree there is no need for a Viewliner shop in Sunnyside. The fewer hours they spend in Sunnyside the better it is for their health.  Amfleet IIs are also not homed in Sunnyside, and that is fine too.
Click to expand...

I really think that a daily Cardinal would need a fourth set. The Crescent runs with a fourth set, doesn't it? The Cardinal takes 28 hours, NYP-CHI, while the Crescent takes 30 hours, NYP-NOL. When one considers the Cardinal's OTP, only using three consists would definitely be very tight. Delays already can carry over on the tri-weekly schedule, especially in cases where a 51 is supposed to turn around in Chicago and become a 50 within 6-7 hours.

If a fourth set really is needed, I'd have to wonder whether Amtrak would be willing/able to assemble one. There's also a shortage of P42s and Amfleet IIs. I could see them trying daily service with only three consists, but it could very well turn into a huge mess, especially during winter.

I for one am not holding my breath for a daily Cardinal anytime soon. It will probably get a diner, and another sleeping car, but will remain tri-weekly for at least the next few years.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> Looking at Google Maps around Sunnyside, I can't believe the businesses with the best view of The Yard are Self-Storage warehouses. I think (particularly on the Northern side) there would be opportunities for high end lofts with fantastic views of the Yard operations.
> 
> Now, this not being a railfan-tasy, generally people enjoy views of activities - whether natural or human activity. Provide ample sound proofing, and it could be a fascinating place to live. Of course, the surrounding area... Dunno...


Unfortunately Queens Plaza and Northern Boulevard are not considered to be hot residential locales, perhaps because of its proximity to a huge railroad yard, or maybe some other reason, I don;t know.


----------



## Bob Dylan

That isn't stopping Austin,Portland Chicago, Denver etc developers from building High End Condos next to the tracks, rail Stations and yards! They're spreading like mosquitoes in a swamp!

Of course once they buy or rent these places they start complaining about the noise from the trains!!!


----------



## NE933

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at Google Maps around Sunnyside, I can't believe the businesses with the best view of The Yard are Self-Storage warehouses. I think (particularly on the Northern side) there would be opportunities for high end lofts with fantastic views of the Yard operations.
> 
> Now, this not being a railfan-tasy, generally people enjoy views of activities - whether natural or human activity. Provide ample sound proofing, and it could be a fascinating place to live. Of course, the surrounding area... Dunno...
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately Queens Plaza and Northern Boulevard are not considered to be hot residential locales, perhaps because of its proximity to a huge railroad yard, or maybe some other reason, I don;t know.
Click to expand...

I never understood real estate.

If the snob nobs don't want to live near a railyard because it intrudes on their social media texting while installing designer mirrors on their 4 nozzle showers while the rest of the world has to worry about where their water will come from, then why not use these for low to middle income folks? We'd be more than happy to live there than out on the street. I know the area well: it' s near schools, transit, grocery stores, and houses of worship. And watching the very train I'll be using the next morning will be, well, cute. Right?


----------



## afigg

edjbox said:


> I believe the Cardinal will get a full diner but only after all of the new diners have been delivered


For the Cardinal to get a full diner, it will also need additional rooms for the dining car staff. Which means it will need either a bag-dorm or second sleeper car to be added at the same time. So an upgrade to a full diner will likely have to wait until at least after a number of bag-dorm cars have been delivered and approved for revenue service.


----------



## neroden

William W. said:


> I really think that a daily Cardinal would need a fourth set. The Crescent runs with a fourth set, doesn't it? The Cardinal takes 28 hours, NYP-CHI, while the Crescent takes 30 hours, NYP-NOL. When one considers the Cardinal's OTP, only using three consists would definitely be very tight. Delays already can carry over on the tri-weekly schedule, especially in cases where a 51 is supposed to turn around in Chicago and become a 50 within 6-7 hours.


The Hoosier State proposals from Corridor Capital involve knocking 2 hours off the schedule west of Indianapolis; there's padding of at least 2 hours between Indianapolis and Cincinnati; scheduled upgrades to the Buckingham Branch should reduce delays there....

In short, by the time the track has been upgraded enough to actually accommodate daily service, I suspect it will be fast enough to manage with three trainsets. This will take a while though.


----------



## William W.

I think that the majority of delays that occur these days happen on the single track segment between CHI and IND. Yesterday's 50 was 8 hours late by the time it reached IND. I haven't noticed, just from watching the tracking map occasionally, too many large delays occurring on or around BBRR.


----------



## Steve4031

William W. said:


> I think that the majority of delays that occur these days happen on the single track segment between CHI and IND. Yesterday's 50 was 8 hours late by the time it reached IND. I haven't noticed, just from watching the tracking map occasionally, too many large delays occurring on or around BBRR.


50 was not delayed between Chicago and Indianapolis. It was delayed between Indianapolis and Cincinnati. Csx equipment blocked the right of way for 6 or 7 hours. Then a wait fir a crew in Cincinnati.


----------



## afigg

William W. said:


> I really think that a daily Cardinal would need a fourth set. The Crescent runs with a fourth set, doesn't it? The Cardinal takes 28 hours, NYP-CHI, while the Crescent takes 30 hours, NYP-NOL. When one considers the Cardinal's OTP, only using three consists would definitely be very tight. Delays already can carry over on the tri-weekly schedule, especially in cases where a 51 is supposed to turn around in Chicago and become a 50 within 6-7 hours.
> 
> If a fourth set really is needed, I'd have to wonder whether Amtrak would be willing/able to assemble one. There's also a shortage of P42s and Amfleet IIs. I could see them trying daily service with only three consists, but it could very well turn into a huge mess, especially during winter.
> 
> I for one am not holding my breath for a daily Cardinal anytime soon. It will probably get a diner, and another sleeping car, but will remain tri-weekly for at least the next few years.


Don't want to turn the Viewliner II thread into too much of a (yet another) Cardinal thread, but the current Cardinal schedule would allow 3 consists for daily service: daytime layover in CHI, overnight at NYP. Would help for turn-around and a larger recovery buffer for delays to trim an hour or so off of the trip time. Which may be possible in several years with improvements in VA not only on the BBRR, but also from double tracking and other VA funded upgrades for the NS tracks from ALX to Orange for the Lynchburg and Roanoke service and VRE.
When all the new Viewliner IIs are delivered, Amtrak will have more spare cars on hand. With more uniformity among the eastern LD trains, they could keep a spare LD train on standby at Sunnyside - if they do not do so already - with a bag-dorm, 2 or 3 sleepers, a diner, an Amfleet II diner, and a pool of 3 to 5 Amfleet II coach cars. The spare set can be configured with the necessary number of Am II coach cars and sent out when needed to cover for a very delayed inbound Crescent, Star, Meteor, or Cardinal.


----------



## hastybob

Looks like another Viewliner 2 move early next week. I am hearing that the baggage car is returning to the CAF plant...


----------



## Acela150

hastybob said:


> Looks like another Viewliner 2 move early next week. I am hearing that the baggage car is returning to the CAF plant...


Great....


----------



## Ryan

Wonder what it's got to go back for. That doesn't sound promising.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

They have to clean the foam off.


----------



## battalion51

Basing the Viewliners in Sunnyside doesn't make much sense, space is at a premium there already. Building a facility there for the Viewliners would be extremely expensive and wouldn't be a good use of time or resources. The heavy maintenance for Amfleets and Acelas is in Delaware, the Superliners and Horizons in Beech Grove, and the Viewliners in Miami, all locations where land is relatively cheap. The majority of the time when a car is due for PM they'll cycle it out from the LSL or Cardinal set and into a Silver Service set (with its replacement coming from Silver Service) so that it can be cut out when it gets to Miami. The only train where you'd have to deadhead something presently is the Boston side of the LSL, and that should be able to be avoided by swapping it in Chicago.


----------



## PerRock

battalion51 said:


> ...and that should be able to be avoided by swapping it in Chicago.


Or Albany.
peter


----------



## MikefromCrete

battalion51 said:


> Basing the Viewliners in Sunnyside doesn't make much sense, space is at a premium there already. Building a facility there for the Viewliners would be extremely expensive and wouldn't be a good use of time or resources. The heavy maintenance for Amfleets and Acelas is in Delaware, the Superliners and Horizons in Beech Grove, and the Viewliners in Miami, all locations where land is relatively cheap. The majority of the time when a car is due for PM they'll cycle it out from the LSL or Cardinal set and into a Silver Service set (with its replacement coming from Silver Service) so that it can be cut out when it gets to Miami. The only train where you'd have to deadhead something presently is the Boston side of the LSL, and that should be able to be avoided by swapping it in Chicago.


Land is cheap in Miami?


----------



## Ryan

It is when you already own it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

It depends on what part of Miami! Prices range from Manhattan Prime to Salton Sea Estates!


----------



## edjbox

anyone know which specific heritage baggage cars are left? I know there are 27 baggage, 21 coach convert to baggage and 14 coach covert to mail. I know that all 14 mail baggage cars are still around but not sure which car #s (not ranges, specific #) are still out there. I asked in another topic but will ask here since it is related


----------



## neroden

hastybob said:


> Looks like another Viewliner 2 move early next week. I am hearing that the baggage car is returning to the CAF plant...


Well, we knew already that these were the "pilot cars" for "testing". (And, in fact, that there were going to be two rounds of these; so far we've seen one of each and there were supposed to be two of each.) Presumably there are punchlist items in the design and CAF has to fix them to Amtrak's satisfaction (and then copy the fixes onto all the other half-finished cars). I wouldn't read too much into it; even if the changes are very minor, they'd want to have it at the factory to make sure the factory workers know what to do on the subsequent cars. It really looks like Amtrak is taking no chances with this order.


----------



## afigg

The July 2014 Amtrak Ink employee magazine (4 MB PDF) has been posted to the website with 3 pages (pg 9 to 11) on the 61000 baggage car with a bunch of photos. The story which was likely written in the past few weeks states that field testing will continue through October, so November would be the earliest date for entry into revenue service. There is a blurb in the photo array on the testing status: "Testing has almost been completed on the first of Amtraks 55 new Viewliner II Baggage cars. Car #61000 has completed FRA testing and it is now being tested by Amtrak."

Excerpt from the start of the write-up on the baggage cars which also discusses the insulation, doors, bike racks and heating system that will keep the baggage car interior at a minimum of 50 degrees. No A/C, just air vents.



> Car 61000, the first pilot baggage car for the new Long-Distance Single-Level baggage cars is undergoing testing. The equipment is being built by CAF in Elmira, New York. These new cars are the result of interdepartmental collaboration among many groups, including but not limited to: Marketing, Engineering, Onboard Services, Food and Beverage, Mechanical, Purchasing and Legal, said Project Engineer Dick Bruss. As I hope you will be able to see, we tried to focus the design on the customer both the passenger as well as the Amtrak employee.
> 
> The testing includes compatibility tests that ensure that the baggage car interacts properly with the other Amtrak cars and locomotives and that it can operate through sharp curves without interference. Testing is also being done for high-speed truck stability, braking, noise, wheelset/rail interaction, as well as actual baggage handling. Field testing will continue through October with the baggage car traveling on the Northeast Corridor (NEC) and on routes to Chicago, New Orleans and Miami.


In a short piece on a Beech Grove "summit" meeting on LD cars, there is a photo of a stripped down Viewliner shell. Probably the prototype being converted to the 10004 Theater inspection car.


----------



## CREW-DORM#2524

The stripped down shell pictured might be the 2300. It was moved a few months ago from Wilmington to Washington where it was tacked on the rear of #51 to Indy and finally to Beech Grove.


----------



## hastybob

OK - three of the new cars moved today on 234 to New York - 68000, 62500 and 69000. The 61000 is still in Albany. Wonder if these are heading to Philadelphia or to Washington for an unveiling?


----------



## Thirdrail7

hastybob said:


> OK - three of the new cars moved today on 234 to New York - 68000, 62500 and 69000. The 61000 is still in Albany. Wonder if these are heading to Philadelphia or to Washington for an unveiling?


They are not being unveiled. They are headed to PHL for high speed testing over the next few weeks. The 61000 should return to CAF next week.


----------



## Fan Railer

Viewliner II (looks like a sleeper or a diner) on yard track 1 (north side of the yard) near Honeywell St. Bridge, where they usually lay up spare equipment and private cars, at Sunnyside today.


----------



## neroden

Hmm. I'll be mildly optimistic. If the baggage car is being tested on all the single-level routes prior to November (as it appears it is), then I'm going to guess that Amtrak will get at least a few baggage cars into service for the Thanksgiving rush. We know Amtrak has heavy ridership and also heavy baggage loads around Thanksgiving...

An insider would know better, but it sounds to me from this testing regimen like the new baggage cars will be preferentially deployed in the East, with the Heritage baggage cars heading for the West until the last one is replaced.


----------



## ronkstevens

Sitting in Race St. yard tonight (8/1 pm)


----------



## William W.

Just saw a bunch of Viewliner IIs sitting in the yard just outside of PHL.

I just barely got the photo. Stupid hopper cars.


----------



## Variogarmin

Could the new Viewliners be configered as bilevel coach cars? What if the ends of the cars were single level for accessible needs, and a few steps up were added to raise the aisle to allow for a step up to seats above or steps down to seats below for a near doubling of capacity and windows for all?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Variogarmin said:


> Could the new Viewliners be configered as bilevel coach cars? What if the ends of the cars were single level for accessible needs, and a few steps up were added to raise the aisle to allow for a step up to seats above or steps down to seats below for a near doubling of capacity and windows for all?


Then, most likely, they would not fit through the tunnels in NY and Baltimore. That is why the eastern LD trains are single level.


----------



## afigg

Variogarmin said:


> Could the new Viewliners be configered as bilevel coach cars? What if the ends of the cars were single level for accessible needs, and a few steps up were added to raise the aisle to allow for a step up to seats above or steps down to seats below for a near doubling of capacity and windows for all?


That would require a complete redesign of the car structure, so it would no longer be a Viewliner for starters. It would result in a cramped car, not as comfortable for 5, 6, or 8 hours trips. If you want a Bombardier Multilevel which are used for commuter rail, why not get a Bombardier Multilevel? But the Multilevels would have to be upgraded to 125 mph capability for one thing.

No, the Viewliner cars are single level cars. And they will stay that way.


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> But the Multilevels would have to be upgraded to 125 mph capability for one thing.


They are designed to operate at 125mph. Currently they do not have any operator that operates them at that speed. So getting them certified for 125mph is probably not that hard. NJT plans to do so in the next 3 years or so for use on the NEC outer zone expresses, so that they can operate on the center tracks and interfere less with Amtrak operations.


----------



## PerRock

I've been thinking about how to make a split-level viewliner "dome" car for quite some time now. A few months ago I was able to secure some decent drawings of a viewliner that had dimensions attached; including interior. While I believe it would be possible to make a viewliner split-level it would be a tight fit.

Currently Viewliners have an 11' interior clearance. Ideally you wouldn't want to make any one floor shorter then 6' tall. I went with 6'8" as a minimum. Using those dimensions, you would have to drop the floor to almost rail-head height; actually only 4" above the railhead. My drawings currently don't 'pop up' the center dome part at all, namely because I haven't been able to figure out just how much headroom there is above a viewliner in the tunnels. It might be possible to have a slight bump up to allow some small windows to be facing the ends; but I don't think that would be necessary and probably too expensive to do for what they would provide. Of course on the sides the windows for the upper-deck would wrap around onto the roof, similar to the Sightseer Lounges. Cafe would be on the lower level, restrooms on the mid-deck as well as the vestibules.

peter


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Ride an NJT MLV. All discussions of NYP compatible bi-levels will end. They are completely unusable for anything but commuter traffic. Fairly tall people (not giants, just fairly tall) have to watch out, lest they hit there head on Emergancy Exit signs- seriously.


----------



## jis

As afigg said, the basic Viewliner shell is not the right place to start to make a tri-level car, such as the old domes or the new MLVs. That would be a completely different car shell with a completely new design which would have nothing to do with the current Viewlienr shell.

Current Viewliners are a shade over 14' tall. The max clearance in the tunnels below catenary that is permitted is 14' 8" from the rail top. Even that you cannot do with a straight roof line (unless the roof is considerably more sloped than is usual) and expect to use the Hudson Tunnels out of Penn Station. You have to have beveled roof line at the ends like the NJT MLVs do. The NJT MLV's which are 14'6" tall have about the only form factor that would fit for such a tall car which can effectively accommodate two floors..

BTW, I doubt that the Viewliners have a 11' internal clearance over a 4' high floor. They would get stuck like a cork in the tunnels or at least short out the catenary if that were the case since 11 + 4 = 15' which is greater than the allowed 14' 8".

If you are planning to have a floor height that is anything more than what one finds in the NJT MLV or the LIRR C3, you need to start working on changing the laws of Physics first.


----------



## Ryan

Green Maned Lion said:


> Ride an NJT MLV. All discussions of NYP compatible bi-levels will end. They are completely unusable for anything but commuter traffic. Fairly tall people (not giants, just fairly tall) have to watch out, lest they hit there head on Emergancy Exit signs- seriously.


Heck, even MARC's K-cars (which are certified for 125 MPH, and DON'T fit into NYP) are wholly unsuitable for for anything but commuter traffic.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I shall only talk of what I know.


----------



## Variogarmin

Ok, give me one last shot at this and I'll drop it... Imagine a split level house applied to the Viewliner... staying within the shell of the Viewiner, the aisle would be raised to the midlevel, seats would be a step up or down from there over the length of the car. Admittedly, it would not be possible to stand at a seat, but people drive for hours on end in cars that are not possible to stand in. Moreover, comfort could be improved at the same time as capacity by installing flat bed like chairs much like the ones that exist in transatlantic first class flights. The double row of windows on the Viewliner would provide scenery for both levels, no need to depart from the Viewliner shell whatsoever.


----------



## Ryan

No.


----------



## jis

Variogarmin said:


> Ok, give me one last shot at this and I'll drop it... Imagine a split level house applied to the Viewliner... staying within the shell of the Viewiner, the aisle would be raised to the midlevel, seats would be a step up or down from there over the length of the car. Admittedly, it would not be possible to stand at a seat, but people drive for hours on end in cars that are not possible to stand in. Moreover, comfort could be improved at the same time as capacity by installing flat bed like chairs much like the ones that exist in transatlantic first class flights. The double row of windows on the Viewliner would provide scenery for both levels, no need to depart from the Viewliner shell whatsoever.


Once upon a time LIRR tried that back in 1932. They were not particularly liked by the customers. Among other things they provided certain excellent opportunities for peeping Tom's to indulge in their fetish. They were quietly dropped and were never very widely deployed.












The first prototype example is today sitting at LI Railway Museum in Riverhead awaiting restoration:






Incidentally it was also the first all Aluminum passenger car ever built apparently.

So now that you have had your last shot.... :lol:


----------



## PerRock

The design looks very similar to the UK's Sountern Railway's (& BR) Double Deck cars, the Class 4DD.






peter


----------



## William W.

It sounds like you're describing a Viewliner Slumbercoach.


----------



## RailRide

PerRock said:


> I've been thinking about how to make a split-level viewliner "dome" car for quite some time now. A few months ago I was able to secure some decent drawings of a viewliner that had dimensions attached; including interior. While I believe it would be possible to make a viewliner split-level it would be a tight fit.


How decent are these drawings? I've been toying with the concept of scratchbuilding Vewliners in 'O' scale, since none of the manufacturers serving that market are likely to market any in the near future. I think it's within my capabilities (I've done a Material Handling Car before they were available in 'O')--it's just a matter of securing sufficient free time, a supply of grooved styrene, and the trucks (of the three, the first is actually the hardest).

---PCJ


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Ah, so like a Slumbercoach?


----------



## Variogarmin

Apparently, there actually is nothing new under the sun.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Very little.


----------



## William W.

I think that it would be a bad idea to try to do things with the Viewliner design that it wasn't ever meant to do. If you want to try to do a slumbercoach type setup, design a new car. The Viewliner is meant to be a purely single-level design. I think that Viewliner coaches would be great; even if they didn't do two rows of windows, they could still have much larger windows than the tank-slits of the Amfleets.


----------



## crescent2

RyanS said:


> No.


This.



William W. said:


> I think that it would be a bad idea to try to do things with the Viewliner design that it wasn't ever meant to do. If you want to try to do a slumbercoach type setup, design a new car. The Viewliner is meant to be a purely single-level design. I think that Viewliner coaches would be great; even if they didn't do two rows of windows, they could still have much larger windows than the tank-slits of the Amfleets.


And this. Please don't mess with the new Viewliners.


----------



## SarahZ

I don't mind not being able to stand up in a car because I don't need to. If I need to stretch and/or use the restroom, I pull over at a rest area and walk around.

Put me in a vehicle that requires walking to the restroom, cafe car, etc, and I'm going to want to stand up.


----------



## jis

Amtrak has just modified its Viewliner II order according to Trains magazine:



> Amtrak tells Trains News Wire that it has added 15 baggage cars and dropped 15 baggage-dormitory cars from its order of 130 Viewliner II single-level cars now being built by CAF USA in Elmira, N.Y., “to address business needs.” The company has declined to elaborate. That puts the new Viewliner totals at 70 baggage cars, 25 dining cars, 25 full sleepers, and 10 baggage-dormitory cars.


I surmise that the Cardinal, LSL Boston Section and perhaps the Crescent will get Bag-Dorms. The rest will get full baggage cars.

My speculation is each single level train will possibly get an additional Sleeper, and maybe the LSL will get one more (17+3, with 5 remaining for shop and protect of the new lot). Alternatively The Star could get one more, but that cuts the shop/protect to a level that is unheard of. Another possibility is that three are eaten up by the Pennsy through cars, instead of getting added as a second addition to the LSL.

Should be fun to see what happens.

This change will certainly make the Baggage Car situation become completely manageable with some room for growth, for the first time in decades, and will help all trains, not just single level ones.

I wonder if the next shoe to drop will be the exercise of some of the options balancing out things on the Sleeper side. I canot see them actually ordering too many more Diners frankly. But then again, at least theoretically a Diner could very well be used as a nice lounge with a slightly different seating arrangement. Who knows? One can dream, can't one?


----------



## jis

WoodyinNYC said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trains News Wire has just reported that . . .
> 
> Also, Amtrak has changed its order of Viewliner II's from CAF. Amtrak now wants 15 more full baggage cars 15 less baggage dorms, leaving only 10 baggage-dorms. Since 17 sets of trains are needed to operate the Eastern long-distance fleet this means that not all trains will get baggage-dorms.
> 
> 
> 
> Not what optimists wanted to hear.
> Probably full baggage cars are cheaper than bag-dorms,
> 
> so is this a way to save a little money on this order?
> 
> Also means non-revenue baggage cars will supplant
> 
> the bag-dorms that were about "half" revenue cars.
> 
> So we'll see much less sleeper space, roughly 7 or 8
> 
> sleepers equivalent, with reductions in future revenue.
> 
> Seems ever less likely that the order will be changed
> 
> to include the 70-car option to expand the fleet and be
> 
> ready and able to expand the number of trains.
> 
> Maybe hacking away at the budgets for sleeper service
> 
> including dining cars, made Amtrak less convinced
> 
> that the more expensive service actually makes much
> 
> of an operating profit after all.
Click to expand...

Or maybe this helps keep the entire LD network healthier by providing good baggage service to all LD trains. Those of that had counted carefully had observed that Amtrak was going to be short some baggage cars with the previous mix. AFAICT, that is the problem that is getting fixed here, and also providing a bit of elbow room to add baggage service to a few medium distance or corridor trains.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

This gives Amtrak more flexibilty to use these cars for non-LD service. Doing away with 15 bag-dorms leaves 9 bag-dorms, which as the article states, is not enough to run them 'consistently on every train. So which will get bag-dorms, which won't?

Some apologists will look for the good in this. The alledged 'good' is that this fits in better with the new 'nimble, customer oriented' Amtrak that is oozing out of 60 Mass. Ave. :blink:

hboy:


----------



## jis

25 -15 = 10 not 9. I have surmised possible usage three postings back. My guess is that the baggage car situation is far worse than we had imagined, and there is real urgency. Considering how often we are seeing Amfleet Cafe cares pinch hit for baggage cars, I have no difficulty believing that.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jis said:


> 25 n- 15 = 10 not 9.


That's what I get for letting Trains do the math... :giggle:


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Amtrak has just modified its Viewliner II order according to Trains magazine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak tells Trains News Wire that it has added 15 baggage cars and dropped 15 baggage-dormitory cars from its order of 130 Viewliner II single-level cars now being built by CAF USA in Elmira, N.Y., “to address business needs.” The company has declined to elaborate. That puts the new Viewliner totals at 70 baggage cars, 25 dining cars, 25 full sleepers, and 10 baggage-dormitory cars.
Click to expand...

Well, I was pretty sure the bag-dorms weren't going to be able to substitute for full baggage cars on most of the Eastern trains. And counting up the baggage cars they did seem to be about 15 short. And the baggage car situation is urgent.

The problem is, this still means not enough sleeper space.

There is another point to be made: many people have commented at the shortage of bedrooms on the Eastern trains, driving the bedroom prices sky-high. Rather than getting bag-dorms, it may make more sense for Amtrak to get additional full sleeping cars, put the crew in the roomettes, and sell the bedrooms (and excess roomettes).

Hopefully this is actually a rearrangement of the sequencing, and not an actual reduction in the amount of sleeper capacity being purchased by Amtrak. If so, we'll see that 70-car option exercised.

For one thing, a 10-car class is unreasonably small, and fails to have economies of scale. With desired levels of protect cars and shop count, the only real option with so small a class is to put the bag-dorms on the Cardinal and the NY section of the LSL, and that's it. This isn't a particularly desirable allocation (though it's not that bad).


----------



## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trains News Wire has just reported that . . .
> 
> Also, Amtrak has changed its order of Viewliner II's from CAF. Amtrak now wants 15 more full baggage cars 15 less baggage dorms, leaving only 10 baggage-dorms. Since 17 sets of trains are needed to operate the Eastern long-distance fleet this means that not all trains will get baggage-dorms.
> 
> 
> 
> Not what optimists wanted to hear.
> Probably full baggage cars are cheaper than bag-dorms,
> 
> so is this a way to save a little money on this order?
> 
> . . .
> 
> Seems ever less likely that the order will be changed
> 
> to include the 70-car option to expand the fleet and be
> 
> ready and able to expand the number of trains.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or maybe this helps keep the entire LD network healthier by providing good baggage service to all LD trains. Those of that had counted carefully had observed that Amtrak was going to be short some baggage cars with the previous mix. AFAICT, that is the problem that is getting fixed here, and also providing a bit of elbow room to add baggage service to a few medium distance or corridor trains.
Click to expand...

Thanks. When I tried to say that I'd read that

the 55 baggage cars in the 130 order weren't 

enough for a full replacement of the current fleet, 

I got jumped on. But if you did a count, that's

​better than my fatigued memory. 

And I guess an option order remains possible.

One rumored breakdown of the optional 70 cars

was 15 each diners, bag-dorms, and sleepers,

with 25 more baggage cars. By that account,

they're still short 10 baggage cars and short

25 bag-dorms without an option order somewhere

down the line.

Even tacking an order for more bag-dorms onto 

the end of the sleepers run shouldn't be too bad.

Build half a sleeper instead of a whole one and

fill the empty space with baggage car stuff, not

so much could go wrong. LOL.

Putting the bag dorms second in the build order

seemed to suggest that Amtrak wanted to add

less capacity at first -- half a sleeper, half a bag

car -- before throwing whole sleepers and whole

baggage cars onto the tracks. But Amtrak has seen 

a lot of growth in the five years or so since this order 

was placed. Maybe they need whole sleepers and

whole baggage cars sooner than they'd figured

back then.

But what if this whittling down is done to offset the

suspected cost overruns? I wonder how much cheaper 

a bag-dorm is than a full baggage car? Is it $100,000 

they save on each one downsized? Or $300,000? 

If the budget for these cars is really short $2 or $3 million, 

then $200,000 x 15 cars means $3 million less to

​outlay in FY 2015. Then if FY 2016 looks better, maybe

place an option order for more bag-dorms and sleepers 

to get back to where they were with this order, or better.


----------



## William W.

The Cardinal doesn't really need a full baggage car. There are few staffed stations along the route, and I've never seen the baggage car ever be close to full. Here's how I would see bag-dorm allocation: Cardinal (2), 448/449 (3), 66/67 (2), with three leftover. I'm not sure where those three would go. If the Cardinal becomes daily, that would mean that only one or two would be left over. The remaining cars could be used during holidays, or perhaps on a future new route (Pennsylvanian through car maybe?).


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Hopefully this is actually a rearrangement of the sequencing, and not an actual reduction in the amount of sleeper capacity being purchased by Amtrak. If so, we'll see that 70-car option exercised.
> 
> For one thing, a 10-car class is unreasonably small, and fails to have economies of scale. With desired levels of protect cars and shop count, the only real option with so small a class is to put the bag-dorms on the Cardinal and the NY section of the LSL, and that's it. This isn't a particularly desirable allocation (though it's not that bad).


My initial take on this news is that this is to control contract costs. The dropping of 15 bag-dorms is a reduction in revenue capacity. Figure 11 of those 15 would have been in rotation service in consists, so this is a loss of 88 potential roomette sales (assuming a typical 8 crew members per train). The production has been delayed and while CAF is under contract to deliver 130 cars for $298 million, if Amtrak has submitted change orders for design changes or deliverables, then Amtrak is on the hook for some or all of the cost of the change orders. The details of how the costs are handled and split between the parties are in the contract and subject to negotiation and haggling, so it is not an either one or the other pays situation.
If there were cost increases to Amtrak in the CAF contract and the LD division was told that they were not going to get additional capital or enough to cover the overrun, they may have made the decision to drop 15 bag-dorms for less expensive baggage cars to protect the order for 25 diners and 25 sleepers. But it may be a while, years even, before there is a straight answer on the reason for the contract change.

This change does not represent an increase in total number of baggage cars. Each of the eastern LD trains that does not get a bag-dorm, will get a baggage car. As for baggage car capacity issues, we have no data on how full the current baggage cars get. From what I have observed, the space inside the current baggage cars is very inefficiently used with the bags lumped on the floor in clusters. And there is usually a lot of extra room.

If Amtrak wanted to get more baggage cars, they would go ahead and exercise some of the options, not change the current production run. I could be wrong, but I doubt that we will see any of the options exercised on the CAF contract. The LD division is being told to keep costs down, both operating and capital.

This news is not good news, no matter how some may want to spin it. But we have to keep some perspective that Amtrak is still getting 25 diners, 25 sleepers and a bunch of new baggage & bag-dorm cars which will be a boost to the eastern LD trains.


----------



## Ryan

William W. said:


> The Cardinal doesn't really need a full baggage car. There are few staffed stations along the route, and I've never seen the baggage car ever be close to full. Here's how I would see bag-dorm allocation: Cardinal (2), 448/449 (3), 66/67 (2), with three leftover. I'm not sure where those three would go. If the Cardinal becomes daily, that would mean that only one or two would be left over. The remaining cars could be used during holidays, or perhaps on a future new route (Pennsylvanian through car maybe?).


Need to build shop/spares in there. Card, 448/449, 66/67 would use them all up.


----------



## cpamtfan

Could be many reasons why they decided to change the order.

They may have realized that there just wouldn't be sufficient space in the Baggage/Dorms on some of the routes they would probably be placed on (such as a summer/winter Silver train). I know they used Baggage-Dorms on trains in the past, but having little space to work might leave crews flustered more that they are with the current cars.

Another idea I'll throw out is a weight distribution issue. The cars have to be balanced good or else they will ride rough, and with bike racks and all, it might just end up being an issue of having bags weigh down one side too much.

And I think they just looked at the fact they are adding enough sleepers where losing a few rooms isn't as bad as losing space for baggage.

It could have also been a cost issue, though.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Very interesting, probably not the last of the revisions either, the Heritage cars, both Diners and Bags are really on their last legs, I wouldn't be surprised if they went into service before the Sleepers and the Bag- Dorms!!!


----------



## afigg

William W. said:


> The Cardinal doesn't really need a full baggage car. There are few staffed stations along the route, and I've never seen the baggage car ever be close to full. Here's how I would see bag-dorm allocation: Cardinal (2), 448/449 (3), 66/67 (2), with three leftover. I'm not sure where those three would go. If the Cardinal becomes daily, that would mean that only one or two would be left over. The remaining cars could be used during holidays, or perhaps on a future new route (Pennsylvanian through car maybe?).


Why would the bag-dorm go on the Boston section of the LSL? The diner crew operates out of NYP, so they would not have a room until the BOS section of the LSL showed up. And they would have to vacate their rooms at Albany going eastbound. If the LSL gets a bag-dorm, it goes with the diner car.
As for #66/#67, why would it get a bag-dorm? It does not have a diner car. If sleeper rooms and roomettes are to be restored to #66/#67, it would be with a full sleeper car.

The Silvers with 4 consists each could fit the allocation of 10 bag-dorm cars. Oh well, more equipment allocation and deployment sequence stuff to speculate on for the next 6 to 12 months.


----------



## DennisInGA

One observation on the bag cars. When we rode the Chief CHI-LAX in July, we had to stop on Raton Pass because the cable through the bag car had fried and cut off head-end power to the rest of the train. They spent over an hour changing over to an alternate power cable down the other side of the bag car, duct-taping it in place (heard it happening on my scanner) so we could continue over the pass. Returning 2 weeks later, we got the same ratty-looking bag car, per our SCA. Sure enough, this time the alternate cable also fried and we were dark from the Raton stop on up to Trinidad where they were able to put the bag on the rear of the train to restore power. So when I hear the bags are in deplorable shape, I fully believe it. It's time to write Congresscritters and anyone else who could help and let them know how desperately Amtrak needs newer equipment. I know from first-hand experience.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> If Amtrak wanted to get more baggage cars, they would go ahead and exercise some of the options, not change the current production run. I could be wrong, but I doubt that we will see any of the options exercised on the CAF contract. The LD division is being told to keep costs down, both operating and capital.


If that is really what's going on, then Boardman is a complete idiot. Costs are not the problem for the eastern "long-distance" trains; revenues are. And revenues are suppressed partly due to capacity constraints. But I have two other hypotheses about this.

Second hypothesis: I think this is really a cash management & timing thing.

* There is an exceptional crunch on cash required for capital financing in FY2014, due to the Early Buyout Options and Lease Terminations on the P42s, Superliners, and Surfliners. It looks like Amtrak probably had to take out about $196.5 million in short-term commercial loans for this refinancing. Most of that is allocable to the long-distance business line. Amtrak's going to be doing its best to pay down as much as possible of that ASAP. (The refinancing needs drop significantly in subsequent years, and by 2017 it's all for NEC equipment Amtrak which is trying to get rid of.) There is a further cash crunch in 2014 & 2015 to meet the PTC requirements. Due to the exceptional cash crunch this year, it is advantageous to Amtrak (though not to CAF) to postpone expenditures into later fiscal years.

* This year and 2015 are also bad ones for the eastern LD trains due to poor host railroad performance and massive trackwork projects (including SunRail, Englewood, etc.). So the added revenue capacity from new sleepers isn't nearly as valuable *this* year with terrible OTP as it will be in 2016 after much of that stuff is hopefully resolved.

* The plans for new sleeper deployment have been associated with refurbishing the Viewliner Is, which is going to cost additional cash.

* The Heritage baggage cars are clearly falling apart. The last fleet plan proposed keeping some of them, which is unlikely to work; and several of the Eastern trains have baggage loads which are evidently too large for one bag-dorm anyway. So the new baggage cars are needed *ASAP*.

Some of the options need to be exercised for sleeper capacity expansion, period. 75 sleepers for the Eastern fleet is simply not enough to keep up with demand, particularly with the dining car and cafe car crews occupying roomettes. But the options can't possibly be exercised this year, given the cash situation; top priority for spare cash is almost certainly the lease refinancings. Amtrak probably doesn't have a chance of having the cash to exercise the options until FY 2016, due to the cleanup of the old leases. Right now, Amtrak is saying that it expects the 130 cars in the main order to be delivered by the "end of 2015" (presumably December), which would still give Amtrak a chance to go after the option in FY2016.

A third, perhaps even more likely, possibility:

It is, of course, also possible that Amtrak has decided that bag-dorms are a bad idea period (that they should strictly go with full baggage cars and full sleeping cars)... but that CAF has already built 10 bag-dorm shells. That would account for the slightly embarassed refusal by Amtrak to comment on the change in plan.

Note that 10 bag-dorms is certainly not enough to make a reasonable-sized fleet. For those speculating on the allocation of the 10 bag-dorms, remember that Amtrak will want a "protect car" at each terminal for a train which uses a bag-dorm. Amtrak will also want a 20% shop count. So really in order to avoid the overextension of the fleet, only 6 or 7 out of the 10 should be in service at a time, and that's if they're on routes which share the same terminals (i.e. Cardinal and LSL, or Star and Meteor). There are economies of scale in the allocation of "protect cars" if you have a larger fleet.


----------



## William W.

afigg said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Cardinal doesn't really need a full baggage car. There are few staffed stations along the route, and I've never seen the baggage car ever be close to full. Here's how I would see bag-dorm allocation: Cardinal (2), 448/449 (3), 66/67 (2), with three leftover. I'm not sure where those three would go. If the Cardinal becomes daily, that would mean that only one or two would be left over. The remaining cars could be used during holidays, or perhaps on a future new route (Pennsylvanian through car maybe?).
> 
> 
> 
> Why would the bag-dorm go on the Boston section of the LSL? The diner crew operates out of NYP, so they would not have a room until the BOS section of the LSL showed up. And they would have to vacate their rooms at Albany going eastbound. If the LSL gets a bag-dorm, it goes with the diner car.
> As for #66/#67, why would it get a bag-dorm? It does not have a diner car. If sleeper rooms and roomettes are to be restored to #66/#67, it would be with a full sleeper car.
> 
> The Silvers with 4 consists each could fit the allocation of 10 bag-dorm cars. Oh well, more equipment allocation and deployment sequence stuff to speculate on for the next 6 to 12 months.
Click to expand...

Good point on the LSL.

As for 66/67, my thought was that there may not be enough demand to warrant a full sleeper. A bag-dorm has 9(?) roomettes, and they could all be sold as revenue space, since the cafe doesn't close. In addition, I can't imagine that there would be much baggage, so a bag-dorm seems like the best of both worlds. If the sleeper space does end up regularly selling out, then they could consider replacing the bag-dorm with a full sleeper.

I'd still be willing to bet that the Cardinal would be the train most likely to get bag-dorms. Low baggage usage frees up full baggages cars for other trains, and the high demand for sleepers necessitates a maximization of revenue space. This is especially true, if for whatever reason, they decide not to immediately add a second full sleeper to the Cardinal.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

afigg said:


> Oh well, more equipment allocation and deployment sequence stuff to speculate on for the next 6 to 12 months.


Plenty of time to let the BSing speculation run wild! :giggle:


----------



## rrdude

If Amtrak is cutting amenities, (flowers on table, cloth covers, wine, chz, "freshly" prepared entrees, china, glass, amenities kits, etc.) WHY don't they go after a HUGE non-rev segment? FREE BAGGAGE. Start charging $25 per-checked-bag.

I'm shocked Mica, et all, haven't railed at the "free baggage problem".... I mean "diners don't make money, lounges don't make money," why are baggage cars getting a free pass from microscopic micromanagement?

I'll betcha the increase in baggage revenue would WAY offset the drop in reservations due to a a newly introduced fee.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

rrdude said:


> If Amtrak is cutting amenities, (flowers on table, cloth covers, wine, chz, "freshly" prepared entrees, china, glass, amenities kits, etc.) WHY don't they go after a HUGE non-rev segment? FREE BAGGAGE. Start charging $25 per-checked-bag.


Good question!

And while we are at it, more for bikes since they take up a lot of space.



> I'm shocked Mica, et all, haven't railed at the "free baggage problem".... I mean "diners don't make money, lounges don't make money," why are baggage cars getting a free pass from microscopic micromanagement?


 Maybe because baggage ain't sexy!?! :blink:



> I'll betcha the increase in baggage revenue would WAY offset the drop in reservations due to a a newly introduced fee.


Agreed.


----------



## jis

Now when they start charging for hand baggage, that would be something.


----------



## cpamtfan

Actually, the Baggare Dorm should be on the Boston section of the LSL, as that section should get far less baggage then the NY section.


----------



## jis

cpamtfan said:


> Actually, the Baggage Dorm should be on the Boston section of the LSL, as that section should get far less baggage then the NY section.


There are aarguments to be made in favor of either scenario.
Argument for New York: Most of the staff that will be occupying the Dorm are from New York.

Argument against New York: Baggage from New York will overwhelm the Baggage part of the Bag Dorm.

Argument for Boston: Boston has less luggage and therefore the Dorm part of Bag Dorm will work well for Boston

Argument against Boston: Boston section has just two or three staff to occupy the Dorm part. So the Dorm part is an overkill for the Boston section while the much larger NY crew will have to wait until Albany to get their rooms and will have to stow their stuff somewhere on the train between New York and Albany.


----------



## afigg

rrdude said:


> If Amtrak is cutting amenities, (flowers on table, cloth covers, wine, chz, "freshly" prepared entrees, china, glass, amenities kits, etc.) WHY don't they go after a HUGE non-rev segment? FREE BAGGAGE. Start charging $25 per-checked-bag.


Amtrak already reduced the number of free checked bags to 2 per passenger not long ago. If Amtrak copied some airlines and charged for each checked bag, the luggage storage areas on the Superliner and Viewliner sleepers and LD train coach cars would be overflowing. Similar to how crammed airplanes can get with carry-on luggage.


----------



## rickycourtney

jis said:


> There are aarguments to be made in favor of either scenario.
> 
> Argument for New York: Most of the staff that will be occupying the Dorm are from New York.
> 
> Argument against New York: Baggage from New York will overwhelm the Baggage part of the Bag Dorm.
> 
> Argument for Boston: Boston has less luggage and therefore the Dorm part of Bag Dorm will work well for Boston
> 
> Argument against Boston: Boston section has just two or three staff to occupy the Dorm part. So the Dorm part is an overkill for the Boston section while the much larger NY crew will have to wait until Albany to get their rooms and will have to stow their stuff somewhere on the train between New York and Albany.


They should have plenty of room to stow their stuff in that full baggage car. :giggle:


----------



## The Davy Crockett

If conductors actually enforced limits, that would be a start to this process.

And since Amtrak seems to be taking its cues from the airlines these days...

The airlines, and I appreciate FFs and FC get breaks, are way ahead when it comes to the curve on this one. They view all of us as carrion.  I've also noticed greater enforcement, as well as perks like earlier boarding for checking carry-on at the gate, of late.


----------



## jis

rickycourtney said:


> They should have plenty of room to stow their stuff in that full baggage car. :giggle:


Yeah, but they'll be pissed (not in the drunk sense)


----------



## William W.

I personally think that charging for baggage would be a bad idea. Amtrak needs to keep "goodies" like free baggage, and the ability to change a ticket without a fee as points of differentiation between them and the airlines. The revenue gained from charging for baggage would be offset by the ill-feelings that such a move would create.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Amtrak is at the limit of what it can cut, service wise. The only things left are included meals for FC passengers, and the complimentary juice, water, and coffee. There is literally nothing left on the coach side of things. Cutting the included meals would mean the end of the LD trains, IMO. The juice and coffee could probably go, but how much would they really save by doing that?


----------



## jis

Charging for checked baggage would be a disaster unless Amtrak becomes much much better at policing what it allows to be taken as hand baggage.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

William W. said:


> I personally think that charging for baggage would be a bad idea. Amtrak needs to keep "goodies" like free baggage, and the ability to change a ticket without a fee as points of differentiation between them and the airlines. The revenue gained from charging for baggage would be offset by the ill-feelings that such a move would create.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Amtrak is at the limit of what it can cut, service wise. The only things left are included meals for FC passengers, and the complimentary juice, water, and coffee. There is literally nothing left on the coach side of things. Cutting the included meals would mean the end of the LD trains, IMO. The juice and coffee could probably go, but how much would they really save by doing that?


I wouldn't be too sure about any of this. Is it a coincidence that NARP's new CEO and President Jim Mathews' background involves 26 years at Aviation Week?


----------



## The Davy Crockett

jis said:


> Charging for checked baggage would be a disaster unless Amtrak becomes much much better at policing what it allows to be taken as hand baggage.


Agreed. See the first line of post #936


----------



## Guest

Hey guys a little off topic but do you guys think viewliner 2's may even make it to Via (Canadian Trains)?? I mean their heritage coaches (sleepers, diners, baggage, even coaches) are just as old as Amtrak's and they might need replacing soon? Anyone know? Thanks


----------



## Ryan

No.


----------



## William W.

I don't think that VIA is in a position to purchase new LD rolling stock at this point. What they've got is what they've got.

Even if they were, the Viewliners only exist due to the lack of clearance in certain NEC tunnels, and the height of the catenary. If the clearance issues didn't exist, I think we'd probably see Superliners across the entire system.


----------



## Acela150

Not to mention Amtrak owns the Viewliner design.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Argument for New York: Most of the staff that will be occupying the Dorm are from New York.
> 
> Argument against New York: Baggage from New York will overwhelm the Baggage part of the Bag Dorm.


How do we know that checked baggage from NYP will overwhelm or fill up the baggage half of the bag-dorm car? Or at least would do so on a regular basis? I have not seen numbers provided by Amtrak on how many bags are checked on the LSL or other LD trains on average and for peak travel periods. Even though counts of checked bags does not tell one the total volume of the checked baggage, but if one assumes a typical checked bag is a large suitcase and uses that size as an average, could get a ballpark estimate of the volume and footprint of the checked baggage.
Amtrak has these numbers, we don't. I am not saying that the baggage half of a bag-dorm is going to always be big enough, my reaction is that without numbers or data from Amtrak, how do we know that baggage from NYP and south of Albany stops would exceed the capacity of the bag-dorm?

On my recent WAS-CHI trip on the LSL, we ran real late and got bussed at Toledo. This is a single data point for a less than full LSL so it has limited relevance, but from what I observed at Toledo, the crew loaded all the checked baggage on 1 baggage cart which they then moved to the buses. Now the baggage cart was full, with the bags carefully stacked up in a roughly 8' long by 6' wide base by 5' to 6' high pile. While an impressive pile, all the bags would have fit into a one corner of the baggage car. You and Nerodon may be right on the need for a full baggage car for some of the eastern LD trains over the course of the year, but I rather see some numbers that support that notion.


----------



## battalion51

I think the concept behind the New York Bag Car would be rethought if they got the bag-dorm (which is the logical thing to do since the majority of the crew members are on the New York side). The New York side of the LSL only has one stop where baggage is handled, New York. So theoretically on departure from New York you need two piles: bags going to Chicago and bags not going to Chicago. The bags going to Chicago can remain there for the duration of the trip, and the bags going to intermediate destinations like Toledo and Cleveland can be transferred up to the full bag car at Albany. For the eastbound trip all New York bound bags are loaded into the dorm at Chicago, and then any residual pickups that occur en route are put in the main bag car. Those bags are transferred back to the dorm at Albany, and voila. There's no reason to have two working bag cars at one time, one is your workhorse, and the other is a shuttle.


----------



## afigg

Acela150 said:


> Not to mention Amtrak owns the Viewliner design.


Well, if VIA was interested in buying Viewliners for their fleet, I don't see why Amtrak would object provided Amtrak either got royalty payments or financial compensation. If VIA were to buy Viewliner diner, sleeper, baggage cars, they could team with Amtrak on spare part contracts which should lower the cost of spare parts for Amtrak. VIA is not going to operate in the US, so they would not compete with Amtrak, so they would be a safe partner for Amtrak.
But VIA does not appear to be in a financial position to buy new equipment for their LD trains. Despite the inadequate capital funding from Congress, Amtrak is in a state of robust financial health compared to VIA with a much better cost recovery ratio.


----------



## William W.

I still don't know why VIA would ever consider buying Viewliners. As I pointed out earlier, the Viewliners were created to fill a specific need (single-level trains for the east).

VIA has no requirement for single-level trains. If they ever were to be in a position to purchase new cars, it would make the most sense for them to go with bi-levels.


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Argument for New York: Most of the staff that will be occupying the Dorm are from New York.
> 
> Argument against New York: Baggage from New York will overwhelm the Baggage part of the Bag Dorm.
> 
> 
> 
> How do we know that checked baggage from NYP will overwhelm or fill up the baggage half of the bag-dorm car? Or at least would do so on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

I don't and neither does anyone else utside Amtrak AFAIK. I was just listing all the arguments that I have seen mentioned so far.
I know you appear to have a pretty strong feeling one way. I don't have any feeling either way. I just think one of the sections of the LSL is likely to get a bag dorm.

Of course almost anything else could happen too, including both sections getting a full bag and the NY section getting two additional sleepers. Who knows?


----------



## ayezee

Won't interchangeability with Silvers prevent the New York section of the LS from having the bagdorm though? Especially in the winter when the set heads south to thaw out.


----------



## rrdude

I sure as Hell would hate to see it, but if Amtrak _is_ on this "maximize revenue, cut anything that doesn't _generate_ revenue" trajectory, (and it appears they are...) then they can-and-should start charging $25 per checked bag, with, as JIS and Davey pointed out, *strict enforcement* of the carry-on limit.

Sure, _some _pax will be pissed off, and _some_ pax will defect or not travel. But if you take a peek at the fees that are earned.....it will be hard for Amtrak to ignore this.

Full article here. (just one of dozens on the topic) http://www.ibtimes.com/us-airlines-bag-35b-luggage-fees-revenue-model-shifts-1259635

EXCERPT: " .........In baggage fees alone, Delta Air Lines earned $866 million dollars last year, followed by United Airlines ($706 million), American Airlines ($557 million) and US Airways ($516 million).

Based on percentage of total revenue, budget carrier Spirit Airlines led the pack, thanks to sky-high checked luggage prices that rose last year to $100 for select passengers. The “low-cost” carrier ranked No. 5 in baggage fees, despite not being among the top 10 carriers in the U.S. by passenger numbers.

Most airlines charge travelers a fee of around $25 for the first checked bag and $35 or more for the second. Exceptions to the trend include JetBlue, which doesn’t charge for the first bag, and Southwest, which allows two free checked bags..........."

Who wudda thunk I'd be advocating for checked baggage fees?... maybe I've already turned pseudo-Republican. (in disguise)


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> On my recent WAS-CHI trip on the LSL, we ran real late and got bussed at Toledo. This is a single data point for a less than full LSL so it has limited relevance, but from what I observed at Toledo, the crew loaded all the checked baggage on 1 baggage cart which they then moved to the buses. Now the baggage cart was full, with the bags carefully stacked up in a roughly 8' long by 6' wide base by 5' to 6' high pile. While an impressive pile, all the bags would have fit into a one corner of the baggage car. You and Nerodon may be right on the need for a full baggage car for some of the eastern LD trains over the course of the year, but I rather see some numbers that support that notion.


Syracuse fairly often fills three baggage carts. When the train isn't full.

There's no real way to tell how much luggage goes NYP-CHI because luggage handling at both stations is largely out of customer view. But it's the largest city-pair market on the train, and it's full of people connecting west.... *maybe* the baggage would fit in a bag-dorm. Maybe not, especially if more seats and rooms are being added. (I'd guess it would fit most of the time but not at peak times.)

Demand is much lower on the Boston end.

...at the moment I'm leaning towards the theory that Amtrak decided bag-dorms were a bad idea, but CAF has already made 10 shells.


----------



## neroden

As for charging for checked baggage, Amtrak is already doing so.

Leaving an allowance for a certain number of "free" checked bags per passenger is something which Amtrak MUST do. There's no real benefit in ticking off your customers; it's not like the airlines, which have strict weight limits to get the planes in the air.

If there were zero free checked bags, well, anecdote here: a bunch of the stuff we carry qualifies as required medical equipment and Amtrak has to allow it onboard for free on top of the carry-on allowance. Because of this pile of junk, we often don't use the full carry-on allowance and instead check some of the other bags. If Amtrak charged for bags, however...

Amtrak is currently encouraging people to check more of their bags rather than carrying them on, by expanding the stations where checked baggage is possible. You don't encourage that by charging for it.


----------



## MattW

They might earn $25 here and there from some people, but would that even offset the number of people that switch (back?) to driving or flying? My gut instinct is to say that it wouldn't.


----------



## jis

I don't think it is a good idea to charge for checked baggage. OTOH I also don't think that there will be a huge modal shift this way or that if a charge were instituted provided it is not enormous. As I said earlier, unless cabin baggage is more carefully regulated instituting a charge for checked baggage would be a disaster.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> I don't think it is a good idea to charge for checked baggage. OTOH I also don't think that there will be a huge modal shift this way or that if a charge were instituted provided it is not enormous. As I said earlier, unless cabin baggage is more carefully regulated instituting a charge for checked baggage would be a disaster.


There is little evidence that Southwest Airlines "Bags Fly Free" policy has caused any significant shift in passengers from other carriers to Southwest.


----------



## rrdude

But if the revenue were in the Millions, and I don't have the time to guesstimate the numbers. (Total checked bags now, % less if charged, etc., etc. X fee)

I too HATE the idea, but if Amtrak is looking for money, charging for Checked Bags is low-hanging-fruit.


----------



## crescent2

Maybe this is sounding like a broken record (for those who remember or have been introduced to "records"  ), but I'm afraid all the nickel and diming is going to be counter-productive for Amtrak.

As for charging for checked baggage, what airlines can do and what Amtrak can do are two different things. From a practical standpoint, many people must fly. I don't know whether very many people must take a long distance train. I think it takes much less to cause passengers to abandon long distance train travel than it takes to cause them to abandon air travel. I have no facts, figures, or citations; this is just off the top of my head.

It seems to me that it would be more profitable for Amtrak to hang onto the perks that it offers over other means of transportation instead of getting rid of them.


----------



## NE933

So, is the railroad doomed, for good? Or, is it probable that this signifies an oncoming option for more sleepers to offset the loss of the dorm baggage? C'mon, Massachusetts Ave., do something!


----------



## MikefromCrete

So what's up with the Viewliner II's released from the factory? Last I heard the baggage car was sent back to Elmira, while the baggage-dorm, sleeper and diner were sitting in a Philadelphia yard. These cars should have been in service months ago. What's the holdup? Amtrak needs to be more forthcoming about this project. Nobody seems in a hurry to actually make some revenue from cars, baggage fees or not.


----------



## Thirdrail7

MikefromCrete said:


> So what's up with the Viewliner II's released from the factory? Last I heard the baggage car was sent back to Elmira, while the baggage-dorm, sleeper and diner were sitting in a Philadelphia yard. These cars should have been in service months ago. What's the holdup? Amtrak needs to be more forthcoming about this project. Nobody seems in a hurry to actually make some revenue from cars, baggage fees or not.


The reason they were sitting in Penn Coach Yard is they were being fitted with the necessary wheel instrumentation for the commencement of the 125 mph tests. Perhaps a video will appear tomorrow.


----------



## Ryan

Yep. Video all over Facebook this morning.

Also, it's not Amtrak's job to keep foamers informed of their rest plans and status. You can't just pick up an brand new car from the factory and throw it into revenue service without any testing, so chill out. They'll be in service when they're ready.


----------



## jis

RyanS said:


> Yep. Video all over Facebook this morning.
> 
> Also, it's not Amtrak's job to keep foamers informed of their rest plans and status. You can't just pick up an brand new car from the factory and throw it into revenue service without any testing, so chill out. They'll be in service when they're ready.


OTOH, if one has drunk the Koolaid from the Railpace editorial tantrum last month


----------



## rrdude

I'm not so sure about this, "I Think it takes much less to cause passengers to abandon long distance train travel than it takes to cause them to abandon air travel....."

Think of how "poor" Amtrak's service is, or can be, in several categories, especially OTP, and yet they are seeing record numbers.

I'm not slamming the Amtrak staff, they do what they can, with duct-tape and baling-wire to keep old equipment moving. And making OBS crews do same-day turns, and work 3 and 4 meal seatings is obscene. 

I think passenger rail service in the USA could sustain a number of unpopular twists, and still grow, or at least not lose patronage.

Remember, I'm not _*advocating*_ less service, no-new equipment, or charging for checked baggage, I'm just stating that Amtrak *IS* losing out on a very large potential revenue source. It's not without cost or backlash, but I believe the "model" has been set by the airlines, and the traveling public would hardly wince at all.


----------



## ronkstevens

rrdude said:


> I believe the "model" has been set by the airlines, and the traveling public would hardly wince at all.


They notice. Just because patrons adapt doesn't mean that they like the situation. Getting rid of amenities, or charging for others just because "the other guy does it" is no reason, either. You have a marketable thing that can show that you are better than your competition. If the return is greater than the investment (and that's what it is: an investment, not an expense) then it is worthwhile. Why not just put the seat pitch the same as airlines, then? People would grumble, but would still take the train because they have to. But they certainly would not be happy about the cost (especially if they are paying in the higher buckets) and would possibly look for other options.


----------



## afigg

rrdude said:


> I think passenger rail service in the USA could sustain a number of unpopular twists, and still grow, or at least not lose patronage.
> 
> Remember, I'm not _*advocating*_ less service, no-new equipment, or charging for checked baggage, I'm just stating that Amtrak *IS* losing out on a very large potential revenue source. It's not without cost or backlash, but I believe the "model" has been set by the airlines, and the traveling public would hardly wince at all.


Amtrak already tightened up the checked baggage policy several years ago. They changed it from 3 free checked bags to 2 free plus $20 each for two additional checked bags per passenger. So Amtrak is getting some revenue from checked bags, but it is likely small.

As noted by others, Amtrak does not control carry-on bags like the airlines do, nor can they because there is a not boarding or screening checkpoint before getting on the train (at most stations). So if Amtrak started charging $20 for every checked bag, most people will respond by taking all their baggage with them on the train. The amount of revenue that Amtrak would get from charging for all checked bags would be modest at best, IMO. And offset by the complaints of luggage and bags overflowing the storage areas on the trains. On the other hand, I would not rule out the checked baggage policy eventually being revised to 1 free checked bag per passenger and $20 for the 2nd to 4th checked bag. How many passengers check 2 bags each and would be affected by this, don't know.


----------



## afigg

RyanS said:


> Yep. Video all over Facebook this morning.
> 
> Also, it's not Amtrak's job to keep foamers informed of their rest plans and status. You can't just pick up an brand new car from the factory and throw it into revenue service without any testing, so chill out. They'll be in service when they're ready.


A video of the test runs has been posted to Youtube: Amtrak Viewliner II High Speed Testing @ Princeton Jct (Cab Car LEADS HHP-8). Multiple passes through Princeton Jct with the 3 Viewliners II positioned between a cab car and a HHP-8.

So, yes, the cars are indeed undergoing testing!


----------



## MikefromCrete

Glad my post got Amtrak moving on the testing! Seriously, despite being a foamer, I'm also a taxpayer and I'm interested in how Amtrak is spending its funds. The Viewliner II program is seriously behind schedule and Amtrak has been very quiet on the whole situation. I read the Railpace editorial, and despite the fact that part of it was gripping that Railpace was not considered a big enough publication for an Amtrak spokesman to get off his duff and do his job, it does have a legitimate point. The project has fallen farther and farther behind schedule with no explanations. If this was a BNSF project, then it would be none of my business, but Amtrak is a public entity - although it sometimes poses as a private entity when circumstances require - and should be forthcoming on its use of taxpayer money.


----------



## jis

They could legitimately claim that this project is not using taxpayer money, but revenue money like any other company.  No taxpayer money has been authorized or appropriated for this acquisition to my knowledge.


----------



## gaspeamtrak

Thanks for sharing the link to that you tube video!


----------



## Amtrak172

Does anyone know when anymore Viewliner II's will be leaving the CAF plant?

Amtrak172


----------



## William W.

CAF, Amtrak, and God.


----------



## NE933

RyanS said:


> Also, it's not Amtrak's job to keep foamers informed of their rest plans and status. You can't just pick up an brand new car from the factory and throw it into revenue service without any testing, so chill out. They'll be in service when they're ready.


True, but Ryan: it's over accommodating to allow them "to be in service when they're ready". They should have been ready long ago, and in the current absence of that, a measurable display of urgency should be occurring, like, right now. I expect Amtrak and CAF management to be loosing some sleep to fix whatever is holding up the process. Because Amtrak is on display to Congress and to the audience of the American public. Sleeper capacity in the East has been inappropriately low for a long time, and Joe B. rolled out a special press conference that tied this new fleet to the re-energizing of Long Distance travel's 'Amtrak America'. It would indeed, be very helpful to show some transparency of where we are in the process. Otherwise, all of the efforts of rail advocates will be hemorraging. I want my work to result in something, in this case, the promise of a new fleet. The new fleet will never come if Congress and the public keeps asking where the new Viewliner II's are, and we keep saying 'they'll come when they're ready'.


----------



## afigg

NE933 said:


> True, but Ryan: it's over accommodating to allow them "to be in service when they're ready". They should have been ready long ago, and in the current absence of that, a measurable display of urgency should be occurring, like, right now. I expect Amtrak and CAF management to be loosing some sleep to fix whatever is holding up the process. Because Amtrak is on display to Congress and to the audience of the American public. Sleeper capacity in the East has been inappropriately low for a long time, and Joe B. rolled out a special press conference that tied this new fleet to the re-energizing of Long Distance travel's 'Amtrak America'. It would indeed, be very helpful to show some transparency of where we are in the process. Otherwise, all of the efforts of rail advocates will be hemorraging. I want my work to result in something, in this case, the promise of a new fleet. The new fleet will never come if Congress and the public keeps asking where the new Viewliner II's are, and we keep saying 'they'll come when they're ready'.


Since Congress never appropriated funds specifically for the Viewliner II order, I don't know Congress is paying that much attention to the Viewliner II contract and delays. Amtrak is effectively paying for the cars from surplus operating subsidies and the annual capital grants. As for the delay, yes, it is a little embarrassing, but the Viewliner II delays are trivial compared to any number of other government contracts to build things from fighter aircraft to ships.
As for the testing, how do you know that Amtrak employees and the contractor engineers are not putting in a lot of hours to test and make fixes for the first set of test cars. These are entirely new pieces of equipment, there are many items to check, test, figure out what is wrong and then how best to fix it. As a software engineer who has participated in getting specialized pieces of electronic and avionic gear and devices working from scratch, I appreciate that new devices or software applications or in this case, new passenger train cars, do not usually work the first time you turn it on or test the system. We will know that progress is being made when the next set of test cars ships from Elmira.


----------



## Acela150

William W. said:


> CAF, Amtrak, and God.


Great answer!!

A test train consisting of the Sleeper, Diner, and Bag-Dorm, and a Freshly Rehabbed Cab-Car along with a Hippo ran a few nights ago and this afternoon.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAF, Amtrak, and God.
> 
> 
> 
> Great answer!!
> 
> A test train consisting of the Sleeper, Diner, and Bag-Dorm, and a Freshly Rehabbed Cab-Car along with a Hippo ran a few nights ago and this afternoon.
Click to expand...

It will also run tonight and next week in the NED, After that, they should return to the factory and something else should come out. So, check back in 10 days or so,


----------



## Green Maned Lion

NE633, I am a transit advocate. And I am going to tell you that if you want acknowledgement or progress from your efforts, you picked the wrong line of work.


----------



## SarahZ

Acela150 said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAF, Amtrak, and God.
> 
> 
> 
> Great answer!!
> 
> A test train consisting of the Sleeper, Diner, and Bag-Dorm, and a Freshly Rehabbed Cab-Car along with a *Hippo* ran a few nights ago and this afternoon.
Click to expand...

A hippo? What is that in train terms? I've never heard it before.


----------



## PerRock

SarahZ said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAF, Amtrak, and God.
> 
> 
> 
> Great answer!!
> A test train consisting of the Sleeper, Diner, and Bag-Dorm, and a Freshly Rehabbed Cab-Car along with a *Hippo* ran a few nights ago and this afternoon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A hippo? What is that in train terms? I've never heard it before.
Click to expand...

Hippo is the nick name given to the HHP-8s by some railfans.

peter


----------



## Thirdrail7

A buff term term for the HHP-8 engines.


----------



## railiner

No, clearly they don't have to, but Amtrak should listen to its supporter's, and try to be more transparent in this process. Otherwise nasty rumor's may generate, as to some serious design flaw, that may set back the new equipment for a long time. And further erode public and government confidence in their ability to perform.

If there is some serious glitch, they should be forthright about it, show they are vigilant in demanding 'getting it right', and move on from there....

*

As for charging for bags, the airlines are affected a lot more by the weight of excess baggage, as in fuel burn, and even sometimes having to takeoff with empty seats, due to weight restrictions for hot weather, high elevation airport's, or short runways....Amtrak is not affected in that way, other then perhaps a miniscule increase in fuel


----------



## The Davy Crockett

railiner said:


> As for charging for bags, the airlines are affected a lot more by the weight of excess baggage, as in fuel burn, and even sometimes having to takeoff with empty seats, due to weight restrictions for hot weather, high elevation airport's, or short runways....Amtrak is not affected in that way, other then perhaps a miniscule increase in fuel


True, but I think the point to this is that Amtrak is searching for as many ways to maximize revenue as possible. Like most people, I'm not wild about the idea of charging for baggage either, but if Amtrak enforced carry-on limits, this could produce revenue.

Would 'enhanced' baggage fees generate ill will? Of course it would.

Then again so have all the cuts in ammenities, meal choices, etc., etc. and yet this has not stopped Amtrak from making the cuts. When pax write and compalin about the cuts all they get in return is the same boilerplate form letter that everyone else who complains gets..

What if the choice was between across-the-board fare hikes or 'enhanced' (in the lies, err... parlance of the new "nimble, customer oriented" Amtrak) baggage fees?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Please hike the fares.


----------



## ronkstevens

Amtrak is being as transparent as they need to be. The current schedule is reasonable given what needs to be completed. Now if something major were to happen during the testing sessions, or the initial cars were returned to CAF and then the in service date gets pushed back I would be a little concerned. We're in the home stretch now.


----------



## neroden

The Davy Crockett said:


> What if the choice was between across-the-board fare hikes or 'enhanced' (in the lies, err... parlance of the new "nimble, customer oriented" Amtrak) baggage fees?


Hike the fares.
I'd be OK with only having one free checked bag per person rather than two, but seriously, nickel-and-diming annoys people, Amtrak shouldn't do it. It's STUPID.


----------



## neroden

Acela150 said:


> ... a Freshly Rehabbed Cab-Car ...


Any further information about this? The cab cars are getting long in the tooth and badly in need of rehab, or indeed total replacement. I had heard rumors that they had weird incompatibilities with the ACS-64 as well.


----------



## William W.

Those Metroliner cabs are 40+ years old. Amtrak hasn't announced any replacements for them as of yet though. Maybe the intend to turn the AEM-7s into cabs? That would result in a loss of capacity on every train that uses a cab though. It has also been floated that they might move the Acela Is to the Keystone Corridor, once the Acela IIs have arrived, but that doesn't seem likely, at least to me.


----------



## neroden

William W. said:


> Those Metroliner cabs are 40+ years old. Amtrak hasn't announced any replacements for them as of yet though. Maybe the intend to turn the AEM-7s into cabs? That would result in a loss of capacity on every train that uses a cab though.


Well, there will be enough coaches once the new bilevels arrive in the Midwest and California, which will free up the entire Horizon fleet (and all the Amfleets used in the Midwest and California) for transfer to the NEC. So no loss of capacity if they wait until then.


----------



## William W.

In order for the Horizons to be used on the NEC, they'd have to be retrofitted with automatic doors. I'd think that manual doors would go over like a lead balloon.


----------



## neroden

William W. said:


> In order for the Horizons to be used on the NEC, they'd have to be retrofitted with automatic doors. I'd think that manual doors would go over like a lead balloon.


Well, so then Amtrak should do that. There's gonna be 93 of them and nothing much else to do with them.... it has to be a lot cheaper than building cars new...


----------



## jis

William W. said:


> In order for the Horizons to be used on the NEC, they'd have to be retrofitted with automatic doors. I'd think that manual doors would go over like a lead balloon.


Trust me, that can be achieved way before anyone sees any Acela II arriving.
Also the first tranche of Acela IIs is for increasing service on the spine. There are no plans to move any Acela's to Keystone Corridor or anywhere else. Besides, Pennsylvania has first got to agree to pay the higher price for leasing Acelas. it is not a call for Amtrak to make anyway. If Pennsylvania comes upon that extra money, personally, I'd like to see an additional service out to Pittsburgh first, and restoration of service on Philly - Reading and the Lackawanna from NJ/NY to Scranton and possibly to Binghamton rather than getting fancy Acela sets for a route which does not really need it.


----------



## William W.

I too think that it would be a bad idea, but that was what I had heard.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

neroden said:


> nickel-and-diming annoys people, Amtrak shouldn't do it...


That train has already left the station.


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order for the Horizons to be used on the NEC, they'd have to be retrofitted with automatic doors. I'd think that manual doors would go over like a lead balloon.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, so then Amtrak should do that. There's gonna be 93 of them and nothing much else to do with them.... it has to be a lot cheaper than building cars new...
Click to expand...

According to On Track-On Line, there are 77 Horizon coach cars. There is a 78th coach car, #54000, but it is not listed as ADA compliant or having the same number of seats as the other coach car, so it is likely not used in revenue service. The rest of Horizons are cafe cars, 3 of which are leased to CA for their refurbed Comet consists. Amtrak still has a surplus of Amfleet I cafe cars, so the Horizon cafe cars might get set aside and only used for extra space on crush holiday periods.So, when we get into these side discussions of what will Amtrak do with the Horizons, the focus should be on the 77 remaining coach cars. But the fate of the Horizons have little to do with the Viewliner 2 order. It is the corridor bi-levels that will replace and free up the Horizons.


----------



## Ryan

jis said:


> If Pennsylvania comes upon that extra money, personally, I'd like to see an additional service out to Pittsburgh first,


Easy - convert one of the coaches to a generator car, and then you can run the Acelas all the way out to PGH!


----------



## jis

RyanS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Pennsylvania comes upon that extra money, personally, I'd like to see an additional service out to Pittsburgh first,
> 
> 
> 
> Easy - convert one of the coaches to a generator car, and then you can run the Acelas all the way out to PGH!
Click to expand...

yup and provide ladders so that people can get on and off the train at all those low level platform stations too.  Another one of those AU solutions looking for a problem I see.  Why not do something which will cost way more for no significant additional value. Ah yes those large windows of course. :lol:


----------



## neroden

The Davy Crockett said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> nickel-and-diming annoys people, Amtrak shouldn't do it...
> 
> 
> 
> That train has already left the station.
Click to expand...

On the contrary: my fare is still all-inclusive and even quoted after tax!


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> According to On Track-On Line, there are 77 Horizon coach cars. There is a 78th coach car, #54000, but it is not listed as ADA compliant or having the same number of seats as the other coach car,


If the Horizons get overhauled, I expect all of them will, including #54000 (the seating retrofit is relatively easy work; this is just a straggler like the last non-push-pull Amfleet was).
I was including the cafe cars. I fully expect them to get used too. Some might be converted to coaches, of course.

Perhaps the simplest thing to do would be to use the Horizon cafes as revenue "table seating"; there is a proven demand for that.


----------



## jis

On trains like the Lakeshore, they should simply toss in a Horizon Cafe next to the Diner and use it as a table car, just like they use the Lounge in the Autotrain as a table car, or at least the Diner end of it. This removes the crunch for table space though increases that walk for the staff, and possibly requires an extra staff. they will have to deal with this issue some anyway if they expect to add more Sleepers to trains like the LSL and the Meteor.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

neroden said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> nickel-and-diming annoys people, Amtrak shouldn't do it...
> 
> 
> 
> That train has already left the station.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On the contrary: my fare is still all-inclusive and even quoted after tax!
Click to expand...

Yeah, short haul coach has not changed.

However, sleeper and long haul coach pax have already been nickel and dimed. Want coffee on a sleeper other than during a few hours? Its off to the cafe car to BUY it. Want a pillow in coach? Its off to the cafe car... yep, to BUY it. This is what is known as nickel and diming.


----------



## neroden

Well, I was always allergic to Amtrak's pillows anyway..... and I don't drink coffee.

The coffee business is stupid and should be reversed. No savings there.


----------



## ronkstevens

jis said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Pennsylvania comes upon that extra money, personally, I'd like to see an additional service out to Pittsburgh first,
> 
> 
> 
> Easy - convert one of the coaches to a generator car, and then you can run the Acelas all the way out to PGH!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yup and provide ladders so that people can get on and off the train at all those low level platform stations too.  Another one of those AU solutions looking for a problem I see.  Why not do something which will cost way more for no significant additional value. Ah yes those large windows of course. :lol:
Click to expand...

Now seeing an Acela round Horseshoe Curve would give additional value


----------



## Green Maned Lion

jis said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order for the Horizons to be used on the NEC, they'd have to be retrofitted with automatic doors. I'd think that manual doors would go over like a lead balloon.
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, that can be achieved way before anyone sees any Acela II arriving.
> Also the first tranche of Acela IIs is for increasing service on the spine. There are no plans to move any Acela's to Keystone Corridor or anywhere else. Besides, Pennsylvania has first got to agree to pay the higher price for leasing Acelas. it is not a call for Amtrak to make anyway. If Pennsylvania comes upon that extra money, personally, I'd like to see an additional service out to Pittsburgh first, and restoration of service on Philly - Reading and the Lackawanna from NJ/NY to Scranton and possibly to Binghamton rather than getting fancy Acela sets for a route which does not really need it.
Click to expand...

Especially Philly Reading. Reading is the most beautiful city in the whole world. It deserves train service.


----------



## MikeM

Speaking of long in the tooth.... I took the Lake Shore this morning into Chicago, had booked a economy sleeper. Boy howdy, they really are not aging well. The sleeper room itself had lots of chipped paint on the toilet seat, rattled, and about 1/4 of the drape hooks had come out of the lower track. Also the PA system emitted a constant buzzing noise if turned up enough to hear the paging systems. The AC worked fine, and I had a wonderful car attendant, but I really hope that Amtrak has big plans to pull these first generation viewliners in for major shopping when the new ones arrive.

The diner was one of the legacy ones, that had been rebuilt. Service was slow but decent, portion control was definitely enforced (Omlets with fresh veggies - options were tomatos and onions. And cheese. At least it wasn't crowded so I didn't feel bad sitting around visiting with fellow travelers and watching the sights. Then again, I feel for any family that was traveling coach and might want to eat in the diner, pricing seems higher than I remember.

This was the first time I'd been on one of these. Comparatively speaking, the Superliner sleepers seem to be aging far better for some reason - maybe they are being serviced more regularly or something?

I guess in summary, I am really concerned we aren't seeing more movement on LD replacement cars at this time, what we have isn't going to last forever.


----------



## William W.

The Viewliners, as far as I know, have never had their interiors overhauled. Many of the Superliners have, on the other hand.

If I remember correctly, the intention is to take Viewliner Is out of service as the IIs arrive, and rotate them into the shops for an overhaul. I've also heard that they may install the Viewliner II room modules into the Viewliner Is, in order to create consistency across the system.


----------



## afigg

MikeM said:


> Speaking of long in the tooth.... I took the Lake Shore this morning into Chicago, had booked a economy sleeper. Boy howdy, they really are not aging well. The sleeper room itself had lots of chipped paint on the toilet seat, rattled, and about 1/4 of the drape hooks had come out of the lower track. Also the PA system emitted a constant buzzing noise if turned up enough to hear the paging systems. The AC worked fine, and I had a wonderful car attendant, but I really hope that Amtrak has big plans to pull these first generation viewliners in for major shopping when the new ones arrive.


I was in a Viewliner on the LSL a month ago which appeared to be in good shape. I think you encountered a unit that had been in service longer since the last overhaul. The Chief Mechanical officer report section in the Amtrak's Monthly reports shows that 12 to 13 Viewliner sleepers are overhauled every year. With 50 sleepers, that means the cars are on approximately a 4 year overhaul cycle. So the cars will go from fresh out of the overhaul shop to getting 4 years of use and abuse with maintenance repairs of varying quality before it gets the full fix-up.

When the 50 Viewliner Is will go in for a major refresh with new room & roomette modules after the full set of new Viewliner 2 sleepers are delivered is obviously going to depend on Amtrak's annual capital grant funding levels provided by Congress. Yes, that is a depressing thought.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... a Freshly Rehabbed Cab-Car ...
> 
> 
> 
> Any further information about this? The cab cars are getting long in the tooth and badly in need of rehab, or indeed total replacement. I had heard rumors that they had weird incompatibilities with the ACS-64 as well.
Click to expand...

The rehab has to do with the braking system and mechanical configurations to make the work with the ACS-64s. However, this does nothing to address the fact the cars are still long and the tooth and are known to leak during heavy rain storms.



afigg said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. Video all over Facebook this morning.
> 
> Also, it's not Amtrak's job to keep foamers informed of their rest plans and status. You can't just pick up an brand new car from the factory and throw it into revenue service without any testing, so chill out. They'll be in service when they're ready.
> 
> 
> 
> A video of the test runs has been posted to Youtube: Amtrak Viewliner II High Speed Testing @ Princeton Jct (Cab Car LEADS HHP-8). Multiple passes through Princeton Jct with the 3 Viewliners II positioned between a cab car and a HHP-8.
> 
> So, yes, the cars are indeed undergoing testing!
Click to expand...

Testing has moved to the NED. If all goes well, it will wrap up in a few days and compatibility/clearance testing will commence in WTC before it returning to the factory.

It is interesting seeing push pull sleepers. Maybe they'll sub a sleeper if they're short a business class. ^_^

Maybe Amtrak can exercise an option for cab car sleepers. they can kill two birds with one stone. :giggle:


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Are the Viewliner IIs currently out for testing carrying full interiors?


----------



## jis

William W. said:


> The Viewliners, as far as I know, have never had their interiors overhauled. Many of the Superliners have, on the other hand.


But the Viewliners have been going through interior upgrades even though they have not been stripped down and rebuilt inside. For example, the last Viewliner I was on had LED lighting in many places. I am sure they did not come with those originally.


----------



## tricia

William W. said:


> I've also heard that they may install the Viewliner II room modules into the Viewliner Is, in order to create consistency across the system.


That would make sense. Travelers sharing a roomette and expecting the new arrangement of toilet-down-the-hall might be seriously incommoded (sorry--couldn't resist the pun) to find themselves in a roomette with an open toilet, depending on who they're traveling with.


----------



## jis

tricia said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard that they may install the Viewliner II room modules into the Viewliner Is, in order to create consistency across the system.
> 
> 
> 
> That would make sense. Travelers sharing a roomette and expecting the new arrangement of toilet-down-the-hall might be seriously incommoded (sorry--couldn't resist the pun) to find themselves in a roomette with an open toilet, depending on who they're traveling with.
Click to expand...

However, it is likely that it will take more than a year to do that change. BTW, I have also heard from a reliable source that when the Viewliner Is get the new setup, they will also get Phase III livery like the Viewliner IIs, and not before that. When all that will happen will depend on the funding situation. So expect to see a mixed fleet in use for quite a while. Should be interesting to see how they manage the reservations.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Maybe Amtrak can exercise an option for cab car sleepers. they can kill two birds with one stone. :giggle:


That would make for a pretty funny configuration. But I can sort of imagine it. Might make Tampa operations more efficient... I think cab-baggage is more likely, though.
On another topic,

...it seems more likely to me that, rather than completely dumping all the hundreds of Viewliner I modules, the Viewliner I roomette modules would be retrofitted to make them like Viewliner IIs (screw down the toilet block permanently, redo the wiring and retrim). The worst 1/12 of them could be tossed during this process.


----------



## MikeM

tricia said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard that they may install the Viewliner II room modules into the Viewliner Is, in order to create consistency across the system.
> 
> 
> 
> That would make sense. Travelers sharing a roomette and expecting the new arrangement of toilet-down-the-hall might be seriously incommoded (sorry--couldn't resist the pun) to find themselves in a roomette with an open toilet, depending on who they're traveling with.
Click to expand...

OTOH, I found on my recent trip that a reoccurring story was I would meet someone in the vestibule and chat with them, and find out they had vacated their room for their roommate to utilize the facilities. Myself, I really think a short hike down the hall would trump worrying that I hadn't got the drapes fully tied down. I think the decision to move the toilet from the rooms really was a smart decision, both for convenience and ease of maintenance.


----------



## The Davy Crockett

MikeM said:


> OTOH, I found on my recent trip that a reoccurring story was I would meet someone in the vestibule and chat with them, and find out they had vacated their room for their roommate to utilize the facilities. Myself, I really think a short hike down the hall would trump worrying that I hadn't got the drapes fully tied down. I think the decision to move the toilet from the rooms really was a smart decision, both for convenience and ease of maintenance.


:blink: :angry2: :wacko: 

Here we go down the ol' toilet hole again.

I miss the hopper toilets, myself.  Nothin' like sitting on one on a cold winter's night on the Montrealer.

Besides...

There are two distinct camps on this one.

IMHO: There is a reason only the premium rooms (bedrooms) will have in-room facilities: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for Amtrak. 

...well, if you don't count the sink in the Viewliner II roomettes h34r:  h34r:

:giggle:


----------



## afigg

There are several new videos on Youtube of the Viewliner 2 test train on the northern half of the NEC in daylight.

1:45 long video at Stamford with a close-up view of the new cars passing by at the beginning and then MNRR equipment pulling in and out of the station: Amtrak Viewliner 2 Test Train @ Stamford with full house.

34 second video at Port Chester, but goes out of focus in the last half: Amtrak Xtra 651 w/ Viewliner II's @ Port Chester


----------



## William W.

The Davy Crockett said:


> MikeM said:
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, I found on my recent trip that a reoccurring story was I would meet someone in the vestibule and chat with them, and find out they had vacated their room for their roommate to utilize the facilities. Myself, I really think a short hike down the hall would trump worrying that I hadn't got the drapes fully tied down. I think the decision to move the toilet from the rooms really was a smart decision, both for convenience and ease of maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> :blink: :angry2: :wacko:
> 
> Here we go down the ol' toilet hole again.
> 
> I miss the hopper toilets, myself.  Nothin' like sitting on one on a cold winter's night on the Montrealer.
> 
> Besides...
> 
> There are two distinct camps on this one.
> 
> IMHO: There is a reason only the premium rooms (bedrooms) will have in-room facilities: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for Amtrak.
> 
> ...well, if you don't count the sink in the Viewliner II roomettes h34r:  h34r:
> 
> :giggle:
Click to expand...

That could have something to do with it, but I think that it is more about simplification. That's 10 fewer septic connections. Plus, having toilets in the roomettes always seemed like a strange idea, at least to me. While it's convenient to not have to leave your room, there isn't much space, and the seats are right next to you...


----------



## Guest

Green Maned Lion said:


> Especially Philly Reading. Reading is the most beautiful city in the whole world. It deserves train service.


I would like to see passenger service using the NS rail (I think its mostly NS) for Harrisburg-Reading-Topton-Emmaus-Phillipsburg-NJ/NY.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliners, as far as I know, have never had their interiors overhauled. Many of the Superliners have, on the other hand.
> 
> 
> 
> But the Viewliners have been going through interior upgrades even though they have not been stripped down and rebuilt inside. For example, the last Viewliner I was on had LED lighting in many places. I am sure they did not come with those originally.
Click to expand...

Oooh, good.

One of the things about the modular design of the Viewliners is that overhauling is apparently substantially easier work than in the Superliners.


----------



## neroden

William W. said:


> That could have something to do with it, but I think that it is more about simplification. That's 10 fewer septic connections.


Certainly less plumbing work.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

afigg said:


> There are several new videos on Youtube of the Viewliner 2 test train on the northern half of the NEC in daylight.
> 
> 1:45 long video at Stamford with a close-up view of the new cars passing by at the beginning and then MNRR equipment pulling in and out of the station: Amtrak Viewliner 2 Test Train @ Stamford with full house.
> 
> 34 second video at Port Chester, but goes out of focus in the last half: Amtrak Xtra 651 w/ Viewliner II's @ Port Chester


With the tinted windows it is hard to see what, if any interior components are in place. Are the cars running fully kitted out, partially kitted or bare so engineers can easily see how the structure handles the tests?


----------



## Andrew Ziolo

Amtrak nickel & diming, bagage fees, food cuts etc. This may work short term. As mentioned above, air travel, travel by car, or no travel at all may result in limited degrees. But, what about the future? Things will probably not stay the same. Automated driving appears to be making great strides very quickly. Why endure limited services when you can travel in your own autonomous vehicle overnight?

Alternatives for travel will be better in the near future. Amtrak ought to become more consumer friendly. Amtrak should also treat its best and most loyal customers aka "foamers" with the information they value. Would it hurt, cost, or impede Amtrak operations to do so?


----------



## William W.

If you record 20 Amtrak trains from no-tresspassing areas, you automatically receive Select Plus status.

#You'reAFoamerIf


----------



## Thirdrail7

OlympianHiawatha said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are several new videos on Youtube of the Viewliner 2 test train on the northern half of the NEC in daylight.
> 
> 1:45 long video at Stamford with a close-up view of the new cars passing by at the beginning and then MNRR equipment pulling in and out of the station: Amtrak Viewliner 2 Test Train @ Stamford with full house.
> 
> 34 second video at Port Chester, but goes out of focus in the last half: Amtrak Xtra 651 w/ Viewliner II's @ Port Chester
> 
> 
> 
> With the tinted windows it is hard to see what, if any interior components are in place. Are the cars running fully kitted out, partially kitted or bare so engineers can easily see how the structure handles the tests?
Click to expand...




OlympianHiawatha said:


> Are the Viewliner IIs currently out for testing carrying full interiors?


The cars are fully equipped and set up. I'm not a fan of the sleeper colors.


----------



## afigg

William W. said:


> If you record 20 Amtrak trains from no-tresspassing areas, you automatically receive Select Plus status.
> 
> #You'reAFoamerIf


If you are referring to the Stamford video, it appears that the video was shot from the very end of the platform between tracks 2 and 4. So the videographer was standing in a legal area.


----------



## William W.

Not referring to this video, haha. I've seen many on Youtube, however, where rail fans should feel lucky that CSX/NS/BNSF police weren't making rounds that day.


----------



## andersone

I may be showing my age,,, but I can remember not being able to "flush" at a station because the pedal merely opened a trap door onto the tracks.

Getting old isn't that bad


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I remember that too. I was 11 when the Viewliners were delivered.


----------



## rrdude

jis said:


> On trains like the Lakeshore, they should simply toss in a Horizon Cafe next to the Diner and use it as a table car, just like they use the Lounge in the Autotrain as a table car, or at least the Diner end of it. This removes the crunch for table space though increases that walk for the staff, and possibly requires an extra staff. they will have to deal with this issue some anyway if they expect to add more Sleepers to trains like the LSL and the Meteor.


Spend a few bucks more, and make those Horizon cars into TRUE lounge cars, sans the food/beverage side, just position it next to an AmCafe. Tables, comfy chairs, a piano or orga n(ok, gone off the deep end again).


----------



## Amtrak172

Anyone know when more Viewliner II's are going to leave the CAF plant?

Amtrak172


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Amtrak172 said:


> Anyone know when more Viewliner II's are going to leave the CAF plant?


I've found it's much less stressful to not even *think *about it. LOL.

But looking at the record, I'd advise you to expect delays.


----------



## William W.

Amtrak172 said:


> Anyone know when more Viewliner II's are going to leave the CAF plant?
> 
> Amtrak172


Do I have to repeat my CAF, Amtrak, and God comment again?

No one here knows what Amtrak's, and CAF's timetable is. Trust me, with the number of rail fans watching the CAF plant, and the surrounding rail lines, you'll know when one does.

For now, please stop asking.


----------



## William W.

I apologize if I came off as being rude. It's just that the same question has been asked here many times, and has been answered many times.

The Viewliner IIs will be delivered when they're ready.


----------



## Amtrak172

William W. said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know when more Viewliner II's are going to leave the CAF plant?
> 
> Amtrak172
> 
> 
> 
> Do I have to repeat my CAF, Amtrak, and God comment again?
> No one here knows what Amtrak's, and CAF's timetable is. Trust me, with the number of rail fans watching the CAF plant, and the surrounding rail lines, you'll know when one does.
> 
> For now, please stop asking.
Click to expand...


Holy crap!?! Chill out dude! I didn't see your previous answer so I asked again.

Amtrak172


----------



## Guest

William W. said:


> If you record 20 Amtrak trains from no-tresspassing areas, you automatically receive Select Plus status.


Cool! That's no problem at all using a camera drone. Do I just email them to AGR?


----------



## NE933

William W. said:


> Amtrak, and God


The two go very well in the same sentence.


----------



## VentureForth

NE933 said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak, and God
> 
> 
> 
> The two go very well in the same sentence.
Click to expand...

 Only difference is that God knows. He just ain't tellin' anyone.


----------



## rrdude

God don't know either, he depends on Foamers to inform him/her/it.

When is the next Viewliner coming out of CAF anyway?


----------



## Ryan

Later.


----------



## William W.

Ryan, your profile pic fits how I feel about the constant "When will the next Viewliner II come out" questions perfectly.


----------



## neroden

Hey, I'm sympathetic to the "Are We There Yet" questions! I think I check websites for Viewliner news daily (which is ridiculous), but I really want to see these go into revenue service. (My most heavily used Amtrak route, by far, is Syracuse-Chicago. So it matters to me how it's doing.)


----------



## Ryan

Checking constantly is one thing. I do it to.

"HAY GUZ, ANY NEWS YET" just gets annoying. If someone had news, they wouldn't be waiting for someone to come along to ask to share it.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

It's just like a pregnant woman-it's going to come out when it is ready


----------



## NE933

If we pray to God for something that will make humanity move and connect better, and name Amtrak, that can't be selfish or silly. It's just hard to trust anyone in these times, even God himself.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

RyanS said:


> Checking constantly is one thing. I do it to.
> 
> "HAY GUZ, ANY NEWS YET" just gets annoying. If someone had news, they wouldn't be waiting for someone to come along to ask to share it.


Or they couldn't share it even if asked. Either way, it doesn't help.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Green Maned Lion said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Checking constantly is one thing. I do it to.
> 
> "HAY GUZ, ANY NEWS YET" just gets annoying. If someone had news, they wouldn't be waiting for someone to come along to ask to share it.
> 
> 
> 
> Or they couldn't share it even if asked. Either way, it doesn't help.
Click to expand...

From the track record, if Boardman himself posted here with the date,

that deadline would not be kept.

So give yourself less stress, let go and let god.


----------



## afigg

Are we there yet??? Are we? 

For those interested, the October 2014 issue of Trains Magazine has an article with photos on the production of the new Viewliners at CAF and the bi-level cars at Nippon-Sharyo. The article "Carbuilding Challenge" is about the challenges the 2 companies have faced in being the first companies to build new intercity passenger rail cars for Amtrak under the Buy America rules since Morrison-Knudsen & Amerail went out of business and Bombardier shut down its Barre VT plant. According to the article, production at CAF is underway with 2 completed pilot test sets. Has a photo of a diner car shell being built.

The October issue has been electronically published. I get my issues of Trains Magazine with an electronic subscription using Zinio to read it on my iPad and desktop. The paper edition is likely not out yet and probably won't show up at the newsstands until later this week or early week (depending on where your newsstand is and, for that matter, if there are any newsstands or bookstores with magazine racks left in your area).


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thirdrail7 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> CAF, Amtrak, and God.
> 
> 
> 
> Great answer!!
> 
> A test train consisting of the Sleeper, Diner, and Bag-Dorm, and a Freshly Rehabbed Cab-Car along with a Hippo ran a few nights ago and this afternoon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It will also run tonight and next week in the NED, After that, they should return to the factory and something else should come out. So, check back in 10 days or so,
Click to expand...

It looks like I was two weeks off. Better late than never. Keep a sharp watch!


----------



## neroden

Hmm. You probably can't answer this, but is there a particular day or time I should be hanging around Elmira?  (It's not that far away from Ithaca, and I set my own schedule.)


----------



## hastybob

TODAY! They made a run to Elmira today and should be there by now. Will return to Albany in the morning.


----------



## Thirdrail7

hastybob said:


> TODAY! They made a run to Elmira today and should be there by now. Will return to Albany in the morning.


And they are not coming back lite. Some people will probably complain about what comes back but I still say progress is being made.
I hope!


----------



## neroden

Drat! Found out too late to make it down to Elmira, and I'm booked tomorrow. Oh well, probably someone else will make some photos...


----------



## The Davy Crockett

neroden said:


> Drat! Found out too late to make it down to Elmira, and I'm booked tomorrow. Oh well, probably someone else will make some photos...


It has been a day in the neighborhood, McFeely. Can you say conspiracy?


----------



## hastybob

Returning today with the 61000 and 61001. They took the previous 3, 69000, 68000 and 62500 back to CAF. I wonder if they are going to do more testing with the 61000 or what?


----------



## neroden

Well, that's the two planned "test cars" for the baggage cars. This should be the second round of testing. If there aren't any significant items, the baggage cars should go into mass production soon...


----------



## neroden

And apparently nobody on the entire Internet managed to get a photo of either move. Geez! I await the first photo of the 61001, guys...


----------



## Ryan

You're a lot closer than I am, get on it!


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> And apparently nobody on the entire Internet managed to get a photo of either move. Geez! I await the first photo of the 61001, guys...


To be fair, the 61001 will look identical to the 61000 baggage car. If you really want a photo that shows a 61001 numbered baggage car, you could photoshop an image of the 61000 when it was in the wild for testing.


----------



## Gregory Grice

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> And apparently nobody on the entire Internet managed to get a photo of either move. Geez! I await the first photo of the 61001, guys...
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, the 61001 will look identical to the 61000 baggage car. If you really want a photo that shows a 61001 numbered baggage car, you could photoshop an image of the 61000 when it was in the wild for testing.
Click to expand...

Pointless Arrow logos were removed and replaced with the current logos. 61000 & 610001 went down the Hudson today:

VIDEO:



PHOTO: http://500px.com/photo/83639213/viewliner-iis-on-amtrak-243-by-gregory-grice?from=user_library


----------



## PerRock

Thats nicer, the Amtrak America Chevron logo they were using was really hideous looking. Atleast the travelscape logo is better designed.

Maybe the next batch will be painted in IVb!

peter

Footnote: I'm not saying the Chevron logo is hideus, just the "Amtrak America" version was.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The three sheets to the wind logo reminds me of Warrington. I wish Amtrak would remove it permanently. I personally would like to get rid of all references to the man. Speak his name and he might come, as they say.


----------



## jis

It is Barbara's apparent lasting legacy 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

Gregory Grice said:


> Pointless Arrow logos were removed and replaced with the current logos. 61000 & 610001 went down the Hudson today:
> 
> VIDEO:


Thank you very much!

That's a consist we aren't going to see very often. (What train runs with two *adjacent* baggage cars? Ever?)


----------



## TommyBNSF

Can anyone tell if it still says Amtrak America, or if it's just the wave logo?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I have never paid attention to the HUGE ventilators atop the Bags until seeing that video. Are they something that is part of the testing or will they be on the final product?


----------



## jis

They are part of the final product.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## The Phantom

Encouraging news to finally see some new Amtrak equipment on the rails. Is this test of the two baggage cars a representative sample durability test or will each new Viewliner car have to undergo the same scrutiny? All we do know is that new Viewliner equipment is badly needed and long overdue.


----------



## Gregory Grice

TommyBNSF said:


> Can anyone tell if it still says Amtrak America, or if it's just the wave logo?


ALL of the previous wording was removed except for the car number. Phase V logo is all thats on it.

Here's another photo: http://500px.com/photo/83661795/[email protected]?from=user_library


----------



## GG1

The Phantom said:


> Encouraging news to finally see some new Amtrak equipment on the rails. Is this test of the two baggage cars a representative sample durability test or will each new Viewliner car have to undergo the same scrutiny? All we do know is that new Viewliner equipment is badly needed and long overdue.


The cars will go through the same exact tests that the first went through when they were previously down here.


----------



## neroden

GG1 said:


> The Phantom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Encouraging news to finally see some new Amtrak equipment on the rails. Is this test of the two baggage cars a representative sample durability test or will each new Viewliner car have to undergo the same scrutiny? All we do know is that new Viewliner equipment is badly needed and long overdue.
> 
> 
> 
> The cars will go through the same exact tests that the first went through when they were previously down here.
Click to expand...

This seems incredibly redundant. I understand that some tests should be run on every car off the line (such as the waterproofing test) in order to test for construction errors, but the cars ran through *weeks* of testing; presumably a fair amount of that was testing for *design* errors which, once fixed, stay fixed on subsequent cars.


----------



## MikefromCrete

I don't think every single car needs to go through the same testing that the prototype cars did. This seems like a waste of time and a complete lack of confidence in CAF's product.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> GG1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Phantom said:
> 
> 
> 
> Encouraging news to finally see some new Amtrak equipment on the rails. Is this test of the two baggage cars a representative sample durability test or will each new Viewliner car have to undergo the same scrutiny? All we do know is that new Viewliner equipment is badly needed and long overdue.
> 
> 
> 
> The cars will go through the same exact tests that the first went through when they were previously down here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This seems incredibly redundant. I understand that some tests should be run on every car off the line (such as the waterproofing test) in order to test for construction errors, but the cars ran through *weeks* of testing; presumably a fair amount of that was testing for *design* errors which, once fixed, stay fixed on subsequent cars.
Click to expand...

The cars will not go through the same tests.



MikefromCrete said:


> I don't think every single car needs to go through the same testing that the prototype cars did. This seems like a waste of time and a complete lack of confidence in CAF's product.


One car will be used for training and the other is headed around the country for familiarization and compatibility testing with other equipment.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> The cars will not go through the same tests.


:grin:
Thanks for the info, Thirdrail7. 



> One car will be used for training and the other is headed around the country for familiarization and compatibility testing with other equipment.


Ah, a car is taking the grand tour! 

IIRC they did compatibility testing with darn near everything in Albany -- P42s, P32AC-DMs, F59PHIs, Viewliner Is, Amfleet I and II, Horizons, even Heritage cars, right? And IIRC cab car and electric locomotive compatibility testing was done later on the NEC... I guess that leaves P32-8s and Superliners, which isn't a lot to test compatibility with.

So most of this tour is going to be familiarization at the other maintenance bases. Hmm... assuming that Albany and the bases on the NEC have already taken a good look at it (or will look at the one being used for training), I guess that means it has to visit:

- Hialeah

- Beech Grove

- Chicago

- New Orleans

- Seattle

- Oakland

- Los Angeles

It'll be interesting to see what route is planned for this tour.


----------



## Amfleeter

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cars will not go through the same tests.
> 
> 
> 
> :grin:
> Thanks for the info, Thirdrail7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One car will be used for training and the other is headed around the country for familiarization and compatibility testing with other equipment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah, a car is taking the grand tour!
> 
> IIRC they did compatibility testing with darn near everything in Albany -- P42s, P32AC-DMs, F59PHIs, Viewliner Is, Amfleet I and II, Horizons, even Heritage cars, right? And IIRC cab car and electric locomotive compatibility testing was done later on the NEC... I guess that leaves P32-8s and Superliners, which isn't a lot to test compatibility with.
> 
> So most of this tour is going to be familiarization at the other maintenance bases. Hmm... assuming that Albany and the bases on the NEC have already taken a good look at it (or will look at the one being used for training), I guess that means it has to visit:
> 
> - Hialeah
> 
> - Beech Grove
> 
> - Chicago
> 
> - New Orleans
> 
> - Seattle
> 
> - Oakland
> 
> - Los Angeles
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what route is planned for this tour.
Click to expand...

They tested with an F59PHI in Albany? I thought they never went east of Chicago - would have been an interesting sight to see.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Some of the plan for testing (and other interesting tidbits)

can be found on page 9 or the July _Amtrak Ink_.

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/634/467/Amtrak-Ink-July-2014.pdf

The new bag cars are 85-ft long, while most current bag cars

are 70 ft long (some are 85-ft long, converted from coaches).

That info had not penetrated my memory, and it helps with

understanding the future capacity for baggage.

Also new to my awareness, the bag cars will be heated to a

minimum 50 degrees.


----------



## neroden

Amfleeter said:


> They tested with an F59PHI in Albany? I thought they never went east of Chicago - would have been an interesting sight to see.


My memory could have been playing tricks on me, but I do remember specifically that they were tested with three classes of diesel locomotives at Albany. Two of them were P42s and P32AC-DM. I may have misremembered the third...
In Amtrak Ink in July , the indication was that the car would be tested on all the Viewliner routes ("routes to Chicago, New Orleans, and Miami"). I really would expect them to send it for familiarization west too since they're going to use the new baggage cars the west, but they didn't say that they would.

I'm definitely curious to watch the car's perambulations around the country, but it's possible that the sort of people who snap photos of railroad cars are getting bored with a mere baggage car. :-(


----------



## me_little_me

So what's the current date for being used on real trains?


----------



## jis

me_little_me said:


> So what's the current date for being used on real trains?


AFAIK there isn't


----------



## Amtrak172

I think the Phase IIIb scheme looks a lot better with the current Amtrak logo (three sheets to the wind). I have to say I think these cars would look a lot better in Phase IVb. I know this discussion has been discussed a while ago. Also, this may have been mentioned in the past. Is Amtrak planning on keeping any of the heritage dinning cars for backup or special runs?

Amtrak172


----------



## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> Is Amtrak planning on keeping any of the heritage dinning cars for backup or special runs?


AFAIK the answer is No. They are a huge resource drain to maintain and keep roadworthy.


----------



## Ryan

Correct. They're not worth the time and effort needed to keep them on the road.


----------



## neroden

I will lay bets that the heritage dining cars will be snapped up by museum and tourist operations, which generally have more coaches and fewer table cars than they need.


----------



## PerRock

neroden said:


> I will lay bets that the heritage dining cars will be snapped up by museum and tourist operations, which generally have more coaches and fewer table cars than they need.


I would expect to see some running on 'Dinner' trains after Amtrak gets rid of them.

peter


----------



## Bob Dylan

There's also a possibility ( admittedly slim, private buyers are more probable) that VIA might buy some of these Diners since they have a history of buying and fixing up Heritage Equipment!

They are old and tired, but the ones with the rebuilt interiors ate still nice to eat in! Whatever the reason VIA seems to be able to bring old rail cars back to life for use on Trains like the Canadian and the Ocean!


----------



## Amfleeter

The diners, unlike the destroyed baggages, probably aren't too far gone for the most part, frame-wise - everything else can be rebuilt. The frame can as well, but it's a new car at that point. Honestly, VIA seems like the biggest potential customer for these.


----------



## jis

But since VIA is cutting service, unless they get into the business of parking even more cars, what exactly are they going to do with more ancient cars that need more attention than their already underutilized better maintained set of cars?


----------



## neroden

VIA really doesn't have a shortage of dining cars. VIA has a shortage of functioning coaches (mostly because the Rennaissance and LRC cars are not holding up well). VIA's baggage cars are a motley mess too, but picking up the even-worse-condition Amtrak baggage cars won't help with that.

I suppose they might buy one to replace their non-Budd baggage car (is that the last National Steel baggage car in service in North America?)


----------



## Acela150

I think that it's possible that Barnum and Bailly might purchase a few for the Circus Trains.


----------



## MikefromCrete

These cars are old and have been run to death. VIA has no use for more cars and I doubt if B and B would want these rust wagons. Can everybody please get in their head that the baggage cars will be going to the scrapyard. Some of the diners might go to museums and excursion trains, but I doubt if we'll ever seem them on an actual real passenger train again.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

They have many problems, but rust is not among them.


----------



## mattie_78

I saw the 2 Baggage Cars at Philly this past Sunday. Here are some photos.

https://plus.google.com/photos/116684427919589248143/albums/6073380655624470625?authkey=CKnOnJy8loDXyQE


----------



## LDKarr

I had been bummed about them ditching the pointless arrow (again). But, after seeing those pictures, I rather like how the "new" looks with the "old". Thanks for sharing.


----------



## neroden

When I add up how many new cars Amtrak actually needs, I find that the current CAF order is too few.

Even for the baggage cars.

I have no good estimates for the baggage loads on the trains. However, when Amtrak said that they were ordering more baggage cars due to "commercial needs", perhaps what they actually meant was this. They planned to replace full baggage cars with bag-dorms on a bunch of trains. Baggage loads are high enough (even after the stricter baggage policy) that they now know they can't do that on most of the trains. As such, bag-dorms are now largely for capacity expansion, not replacement of baggage cars, so the baggage car deliveries must come first. That would be a solid *commercial needs* explanation.


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> When I add up how many new cars Amtrak actually needs, I find that the current CAF order is too few.
> 
> Even for the baggage cars.
> 
> I have no good estimates for the baggage loads on the trains. However, when Amtrak said that they were ordering more baggage cars due to "commercial needs", perhaps what they actually meant was this. They planned to replace full baggage cars with bag-dorms on a bunch of trains. Baggage loads are high enough (even after the stricter baggage policy) that they now know they can't do that on most of the trains. As such, bag-dorms are now largely for capacity expansion, not replacement of baggage cars, so the baggage car deliveries must come first. That would be a solid *commercial needs* explanation.


IT could also mean Amtrak is planning on more Amtrak express shipments or even U.S. Mail.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

MikefromCrete said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I add up how many new cars Amtrak actually needs, I find that the current CAF order is too few.
> 
> ...
> 
> I have no good estimates for the baggage loads on the trains. However, when Amtrak said that they were ordering more baggage cars due to "commercial needs", perhaps what they actually meant was this. They planned to replace full baggage cars with bag-dorms on a bunch of trains. Baggage loads are high enough (even after the stricter baggage policy) that they now know they can't do that on most of the trains. As such, bag-dorms are now largely for capacity expansion, not replacement of baggage cars, so the baggage car deliveries must come first. That would be a solid *commercial needs* explanation.
> 
> 
> 
> It could also mean Amtrak is planning on more Amtrak express shipments or even U.S. Mail.
Click to expand...

An article in the July Amtrak Ink about the baggage cars pointed out



> "Luggage racks can be folded up against the walls to provide maximum floor area for carrying cargo such as pallets."


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> When I add up how many new cars Amtrak actually needs, I find that the current CAF order is too few.
> 
> I have no good estimates for the baggage loads on the trains. However, when Amtrak said that they were ordering more baggage cars due to "commercial needs", perhaps what they actually meant was this. They planned to replace full baggage cars with bag-dorms on a bunch of trains. Baggage loads are high enough (even after the stricter baggage policy) that they now know they can't do that on most of the trains. ...


From five years ago



> trains4america.wordpress.com
> 
> *Sea Toby* says:
> 
> July 26, 2009
> 
> ...
> 
> The new 130 Viewliner 2 cars are:
> 
> 25 sleepers
> 
> 25 baggage dorms
> 
> 25 diners
> 
> 55 baggage cars
> 
> The optional 70 Viewliner 2 cars are:
> 
> 10 sleepers
> 
> 15 baggage dorms
> 
> 15 diners
> 
> 30 baggage cars


I don't know Sea Toby at all. But he seemed confident in his claim.

Wait! Then another source posted somewhere that the option was for

15 diners, 15 bag dorms, 15 sleepers, and 25 bag cars. And someone

said the bag cars weren't enuff to replace all the Heritage equipment,

much less to add cars to current and future trains.

So Amtrak rejiggered the order to get 15 more bag cars. But I think,

not sure, that's still short of replacing the last of the Heritage equipment.

Meanwhile, another post claimed that reports from the field are that

2 ½ sleepers is fine, but 3 sleepers per diner really taxes the crew.

So how to get to 2 ½ sleepers? Would 2 full sleepers plus a bag dorm

do it? Seems like that is 2 sleepers, not 2 ½. So 3 sleepers, with 1/2

of one used for crew. But three sleepers plus a bag-dorm car is 3

sleepers per diner, which we're told is a bit too much to handle.

In which case, assuming Amtrak agrees that 2 sleepers is too few,

3 is too many, and 2 ½ is just right, then it doesn't need bag-dorms

much at all. Of course, with the new more efficient diners, and with

point-of-sale surely coming soon, maybe 3 full sleepers per diner will

be the right number, and Amtrak will want a bag-dorm on every route.

Of course, things change over time. The RfP for single-level cars was

late 2008 or early 2009. Remember how it looked like there'd be $4 or

$5 Billion a year for passenger rail infrastructure and equipment?

Now five years gone by, and three or four million passengers gained,

it's really not too surprising that particulars of the CAF order, and of

the option order, have changed.

Still, I have no doubt that the current order for 130 cars is way too small.

I'm crediting Amtrak with knowing that it needed 200 cars, but scaling it

back to 130 plus option for 70 due to financial limits, soon compounded

by political pressures.

I won't be surprised if CAF is very VERY flexible about the option order.

It could allow Amtrak to exercise a partial order for enuff cars to keep

the assembly lines (or at least one assembly line) open into another of

Amtrak's Fiscal Years, with a _revised option _for the balance of the 70 cars,

*or for even more*.

CAF doesn't want to pack up and go home any time soon. They want

to be around to bid to build Next Gen single-level coaches, and as I've

said before, Amtrak wants them to involved to help push the other bids down.

So I conclude that there's nothing about the Viewliner IIs order that can't

change, from the deadlines to the breakdown of cars ordered to the total

cars ordered, and more stuff I can't think of right now.


----------



## George K

As I read through this thread (and related ones about equipment), I find myself wondering about how much equipment Amtrak needs to haul baggage. Although the current crop of cars is aged, is it worth upgrading them instead of rolling stock that will accommodate more passengers?

I'm not giving an opinion here, I'm just wondering.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

George K said:


> As I read through this thread (and related ones about equipment), I find myself wondering about how much equipment Amtrak needs to haul baggage. Although the current crop of cars is aged, is it worth upgrading them instead of rolling stock that will accommodate more passengers?
> 
> I'm not giving an opinion here, I'm just wondering.


The 25 Viewliner II sleepers in the current CAF order will be added 

to the 50 Viewliners now in the fleet, for a 50% increase in roomettes. 

Plus the 10 bag-dorms (letting crew move out of the sleepers), will 

open up passenger roomettes for 10 "half of" sleepers, making a 60% 

increase in roomettes from now. Sounds like it could be a 60% increase 

in baggage, without adding any more coaches (and a small number of 

Amfleets could come east from the Midwest and maybe California). 

On the other hand, the new baggage cars are 85 feet long, while most

of the current fleet are 70 feet long. And the new cars have luggage racks,

which should use the space more efficiently.

But remember that the new bag cars will be used on all LD trains,

replacing Heritage cars, and not just the Eastern single-level routes.

++++++++++++++++++

Because the Heritage equipment is, by definition, older than Amtrak, or

pre-1971, it's simply worn out. Maintenance costs are huge, and their

slow speed-rating holds down the LD trains on the NEC, where many

trains are trying to go as fast as they can, and on other tracks as well.

So it's not about choosing non-revenue bag cars over coaches and

sleepers. and their paying customers. It's about replacing the oldest,

most worn-out stuff first.

But yeah, Amtrak needs to order 600 or more single-level coaches a.s.a.p. 

And then order 500 or more bi-level coaches for the Western trains.


----------



## George K

Thanks for your thoughtful response.



> The 25 Viewliner II sleepers in the current CAF order will be added to the 50 Viewliners now in the fleet, for a 50% increase in roomettes.


I had no idea that there were more sleepers on order. I'm an ignoramus.



> Plus the 10 bag-dorms (letting crew move out of the sleepers), will open up passenger roomettes for 10 "half of" sleepers, making a 60%
> 
> increase in roomettes from now


Hmm. That too. Seems like we're talking a serious amount of increased passenger room.



> it's simply worn out. Maintenance costs are huge, and their slow speed-rating holds down the LD trains on the NEC


Is that the case on the Western LD routes as well? I had a speedometer app installed on my iPhone and our top speed was never more than 70-80. Is that a function of the old equipment, or the roadbed?



> It's about replacing the oldest, most worn-out stuff first.


Yeah. Obviously.

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

This place (forum) is quite the education.


----------



## afigg

George K said:


> Is that the case on the Western LD routes as well? I had a speedometer app installed on my iPhone and our top speed was never more than 70-80. Is that a function of the old equipment, or the roadbed?


Function of max track speed. For Class IV track, max speed for passenger trains is 79 mph which is the typical max speed for Amtrak trains outside of the NEC, a few corridors and some 90 mph freight tracks. But Amtrak also operates over Class III 60 mph track for some route segments. The Heritage baggage and diner cars are rated for 110 mph speeds, so they don't present a speed constraint except on the NEC.


----------



## neroden

George K said:


> As I read through this thread (and related ones about equipment), I find myself wondering about how much equipment Amtrak needs to haul baggage. Although the current crop of cars is aged, is it worth upgrading them instead of rolling stock that will accommodate more passengers?
> 
> I'm not giving an opinion here, I'm just wondering.


There are 64 baggage cars, the oldest dating from the late 1940s, and the newest from (IIRC) 1959. 35 of them were converted from coaches and were never really laid out properly for baggage; many of these also have structural damage because the undercarriage wasn't designed for baggage. The other 29, which were designed as baggage cars, are all shorter than standard Amtrak cars, and they are mostly not really well arranged for modern baggage either. (Any interior shelving disappeared long ago). The interior floors on all of them are in bad shape. The doors on practically *all* of them are damaged and are not reliable; dust and snow gets in. The underfloor gear is ancient and worn out and well overdue for total replacement. They have top speed limits which prevent them from running at full speed on the NEC and the Empire Corridor, so they are the limiting factor on top train speed on all the single-level trains. They are out of service so often that Amtrak has substituted cafe cars on occasion.

It is not worth spending a penny on any of the Heritage baggage cars. They will probably be cut up for scrap.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

George K said:


> Thanks for your thoughtful response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 25 Viewliner II sleepers in the current CAF order will be added to the 50 Viewliners now in the fleet, for a 50% increase in roomettes.
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea that there were more sleepers on order. I'm an ignoramus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus the 10 bag-dorms (letting crew move out of the sleepers), will open up
> 
> passenger roomettes for 10 "half of" sleepers, making a 60%
> 
> increase in roomettes from now
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm. That too. Seems like we're talking a serious amount of increased passenger room.
Click to expand...

Well, we're talking about a $300 million order for a lousy 130 cars,

with 65 of them full baggage cars. Then 25 diners, which will replace

Heritage diners one for one. Remember, "Heritage" means inherited

from the trains that ran pre-Amtrak, pre-1971. so the diners are terribly

ld too. But worse, the 25 diners came from like 25 different trains, well,

maybe a slight exaggeration, but there are no economies of scale buying

spare parts or training maintenance crews, because they are mostly

one-of-a-kind cars. Then 10 baggage crew dorms. Half the car is for

baggage, half for the crew. The bag dorms "create" space to sell,

because if there are no dorm cars, the crew sleeps in roomettes

in sleepers.

Finally comes the order for 25 sleepers, which will increase inventory

considerably for the premium service, which often sells out holidays

and weekends. But each new car will have 11 roomettes, 2 bedrooms,

and 1 ADA bedroom, so a maximum of about 27 passengers. If they

sell every room on the sleepers, that's 25 X 27 = 675 additional riders

per day, or 246,000 a year. Not much against Amtrak's ridership of

31 million.

The current order does NOT include any additional coaches. Today's

single-level Amfleets typically carry 59 or 60 passengers. Filling every

seat of a new coach would add about 1,500 riders a day, or almost

550,000 a year. Adding even 25 coaches, while replacing the existing

fleet, could add 13 million seats. Now that would be a capacity increase.

The CAF order for Viewliners does include an option for another 70 cars --

diners, sleepers, bag dorms, and baggage cars -- for 200 total.

Almost everyone on these boards hopes to see the option order placed,

but timing is everything.

It would much cheaper to buy additional cars now. Buying in batches

of 5 diners or 10 sleepers after the assembly line shuts down would

mean costly, almost handcrafted cars, so better to do it while CAF is

still building the 130 or 200 cars. Meanwhile a large order of 600 or so

coaches over five or six years, as is suggested in the Fleet Renewal Plan,

would bring economies of scale to the manufacturing process resulting

in high-volume lower prices.

But of course, Amtrak is being squeezed by Congress, and must very

carefully plan and prioritize its spending. The next big thing will be

the order for 28 Acela II train sets. Once those bids come in, and

once Congress passes a new transportation appropriation, Amtrak

will have a better idea of its cash flow, total borrowing, etc before

it can commit to ordering any more cars for its existing trains.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> The Heritage baggage and diner cars are rated for 110 mph speeds, so they don't present a speed constraint except on the NEC.


I dug up some information, and I find that the 80 ft. baggage cars (converted coaches) are good for 110 mph, but have special speed restrictions at certain locations (probably curves or grades) --- while nobody outside Amtrak seems to know what the speed restrictions are for the 60 ft. baggage cars.

It appears that *individual cars may have their own speed limits*, lower than 110.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/218616.aspx

These things are the opposite of a uniform fleet; practically every Heritage baggage car is a unique snowflake. I can't imagine how much that costs in maintenance.


----------



## neroden

WoodyinNYC said:


> Finally comes the order for 25 sleepers, which will increase inventory
> 
> considerably for the premium service, which often sells out holidays
> 
> and weekends.


And random Wednesdays in November! The LSL sells out of rooms *all the time*, except in the weak months of January and February. The Cardinal sells out even more often.



> But each new car will have 11 roomettes, 2 bedrooms,
> 
> and 1 ADA bedroom, so a maximum of about 27 passengers. So if they
> 
> sell every room on the sleepers, that's 25 X 27 = 675 additional riders
> 
> per day, or 246,000 a year. Not much against Amtrak's ridership of
> 
> 31 million.


Yeah, but it's a much bigger deal in terms of revenue. At average yields of $700 per bedroom and $350 per roomette, this is (700 * 3 + 350 * 11) = $5950/day or $2.17 million/year.
These are realistic yields for the Lake Shore Limited (except probably in January and February).



> The current order does NOT include any additional coaches. Today's
> 
> single-level Amfleets typically carry 59 or 60 passengers. Filling every seat
> 
> would add about 1,500 riders a day, or almost 550,000 a year.


Yeah, but the coaches aren't filling every seat yet (well, except on the Cardinal).
There are still tickets available. At plausible loads and yields, an added coach is not as profitable as an added sleeper. With a $101 yield (typical for this month's prices), a completely full coach (which is unlikely) realizes $2.17 million in revenue.

Just for fun, I looked up today's (Friday's) NY-Chicago availability. The Cardinal is completely sold out. The LSL has one accessible bedroom available for $1102, and that's it. Coach seats remain available for $101.

Checking Amsnag, rooms on the LSL remain at near-sellout conditions for most of November. This is despite the OTP disaster recently. The lowest bucket in the next 30 days for a room on the LSL or Cardinal is $213, which occurs on exactly two days. And November isn't typically a peak month, Thanksgiving aside.

(The Capitol Limited, and Superliner trains in general, do not have these routine sellout conditions.)

This is why Amtrak needs those new Viewliner sleeping cars ASAP. They're leaving money on the table. Even assuming pessimistic running cost guesses, each sleeping car will pay for itself in 3 years. They'll last for decades. The commercial case for them is extremely strong; given that the Viewliner trains are being operated at all, the case for the new Viewliner sleeping cars is nearly as strong as the case for the Acela IIs.

(Just to preemptively knock down one common but stupid argument: the sleeping cars will look worse financially if you attribute all the dining car costs to them; but that's grossly inappropriate, given that about half the dining car patronage on the LSL is coach passengers.)

----

The dining cars and baggage cars, unfortunately, are just a "we have to replace these before they fall apart" situation, and will not realize money immediately, apart from the maintenance savings. Hopefully that will be substantial.


----------



## sitzplatz17

Just spotted two of the baggage cars outside Union Station in DC. I assume those are the two that are out and about for testing?


----------



## OBS

They have been there for about 2 weeks, not sure if there for training or what...


----------



## Viewliner

61001 was in Philly early this afternoon, coupled to an Amfleet I coach.


----------



## Acela150

Cars are on the pick up track in Elmira.


----------



## jis

One of them is reported to be 61006.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Steve4031

I know this was written some where but I could not find it. Im planning to take gf to nyc on 48/49 at the end of june. It would be awesome if we rode new viewliners sleepers. However its not life and death. I also know it's impossible to predict with certainty. But an educated guess would be appreciated.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Steve4031 said:


> I know this was written some where but I could not find it. Im planning to take gf to nyc on 48/49 at the end of june. It would be awesome if we rode new viewliners sleepers. However its not life and death. I also know it's impossible to predict with certainty. But an educated guess would be appreciated.


Sorry. The first 70 will be baggage cars, 10 bag-dorms, then 25 diners.

No sleepers until 2016, or if delays continue, later, LOL.


----------



## Steve4031

Ok. Thank you. This was helpful.


----------



## Dollars_and_sense

WoodyinNYC said:


> Well, we're talking about a $300 million order for a lousy 130 cars,
> 
> with 65 of them full baggage cars.





neroden said:


> Yeah, but it's a much bigger deal in terms of revenue. At average yields of $700 per bedroom and $350 per roomette, this is (700 * 3 + 350 * 11) = $5950/day or $2.17 million/year.


So, basically, Amtrak is spending $300M to generate $2.17M/year in additional revenue. So, these new cars will need to provide service for way over 100 years to just break even.

Yea, I realize that Amtrak needed new cars that don't directly produce any revenue, but I doubt the "bean counters" factor such into their accounting books.


----------



## Ziv

Dollars and sense, I may be wrong but the guesstimate was that it was possible for EACH sleeper to generate $2.17Mn per year, so that would be more than $50Mn a year at full occupancy, plus the $3-$4Mn the bag dorms will add to the bottom line. And the fact is that eliminating the old cars add value in a lot of different ways. Obviously the sleepers won't be at 100% occupancy for the year, but they will be close.

This equipment purchase will pay for itself in a very short time, especially when you consider the fact that these cars will be in the fleet for 30-40 years.



Dollars_and_sense said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we're talking about a $300 million order for a lousy 130 cars,
> with 65 of them full baggage cars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but it's a much bigger deal in terms of revenue. At average yields of $700 per bedroom and $350 per roomette, this is (700 * 3 + 350 * 11) = $5950/day or $2.17 million/year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, basically, Amtrak is spending $300M to generate $2.17M/year in additional revenue. So, these new cars will need to provide service for way over 100 years to just break even.
> 
> Yea, I realize that Amtrak needed new cars that don't directly produce any revenue, but I doubt the "bean counters" factor such into their accounting books.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ryan

Dollars_and_sense said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we're talking about a $300 million order for a lousy 130 cars,
> 
> with 65 of them full baggage cars.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but it's a much bigger deal in terms of revenue. At average yields of $700 per bedroom and $350 per roomette, this is (700 * 3 + 350 * 11) = $5950/day or $2.17 million/year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, basically, Amtrak is spending $300M to generate $2.17M/year in additional revenue. So, these new cars will need to provide service for way over 100 years to just break even.
Click to expand...

Not really, since they're buying more than one car.


----------



## jis

Dollars_and_sense said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but it's a much bigger deal in terms of revenue. At average yields of $700 per bedroom and $350 per roomette, this is (700 * 3 + 350 * 11) = $5950/day or $2.17 million/year.
> 
> 
> 
> So, basically, Amtrak is spending $300M to generate $2.17M/year in additional revenue. So, these new cars will need to provide service for way over 100 years to just break even.
Click to expand...

That $2.7 million is per car per year. If you take the trouble to do the multiplication by 25, you land up with something north of $50 million per year, which changes your bottom line to something under 6 years. Not bad at all.
Getting the arithmetic straight helps arrive at the right conclusions.


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know this was written some where but I could not find it. Im planning to take gf to nyc on 48/49 at the end of june. It would be awesome if we rode new viewliners sleepers. However its not life and death. I also know it's impossible to predict with certainty. But an educated guess would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry. The first 70 will be baggage cars, 10 bag-dorms, then 25 diners.
> 
> No sleepers until 2016, or if delays continue, later, LOL.
Click to expand...

I don't recall reading that the change in production was going to be all baggage cars first, then bag-dorms, then diners, etc. Only that the baggage cars were going to move to production while the production of the other 3 car types was to start later. In the October, 2013 press briefing, after the 2 sets of test cars, CAF was going to build the Viewliners on 2 production lines, one for baggage cars, the other sequentially to produce diners, bag-dorms, sleepers in that order. Since Amtrak badly needs the new diner cars as much as the baggage cars, the diner cars should see production before the bag-dorms and sleepers.

Getting back to the original question, the odds of being on a new sleeper car on the LSL next June are very small. The odds of the LSL having a Viewliner diner car, either the 8400 or a new one, are better. But given the years of delay, the odds are may be poor even on encountering a new diner car.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> That $2.7 million is per car per year. If you take the trouble to do the multiplication by 25, you land up with something north of $50 million per year, which changes your bottom line to something under 6 years. Not bad at all.
> 
> Getting the arithmetic straight helps arrive at the right conclusions.


Neroden's number was $2.17 million per sleeper car per year, but that is still higher than what Amtrak gets.
In FY2013, the total sleeper revenue from the LSL, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Crescent, Cardinal was $37.6 million. That was spread over 39 sleeper cars in regular service rotation. Of course, without crew-dorm cars, a lot of roomettes are taken up by OBS and lost to revenue sales. Still, less than $1 million per sleeper car.

From the OIG report, the plan is to deploy a total of 60 sleepers and 5 bag-dorm cars in service rotation. So some back of the envelope get in the ballpark additional revenue projection.

The new sleepers will have 11 roomettes instead of 12, so the 25 new sleepers won't quite equal 25 Vw Is in capacity. Amtrak can make up some of the difference with 2 attendants splitting 3 sleeper cars between them. The OBS staff size won't increase, so going from 2 sleepers to 3 for a train not getting a bag-dorm is more than a 50% increase in roomettes.

The 5 bag-dorms will provide 45 roomettes in capacity for the LSL and Cardinal. For the LSL, they will free up 8-9 roomettes currently used by OBS. Until the Cardinal gets a full service diner, extra bag-dorm roomettes are likely to be sold for revenue service. So the 45 roomettes are equal to 4 Viewliner II sleepers in roomettes, but not in higher revenue bedrooms. Hand waving here, I'm going to say 5 bag-dorm cars roughly equals 3 current sleeper cars in revenue capacity.

So, ball-park the expanded fleet as roughly 63 sleeper cars in capacity compared to the baseline of 39 sleepers for about a 62% increase in revenue capacity. That may be low because I have not compensated for the capacity expansion with a fixed sized OBS. I expect someone else has calculated that. I'm ignoring the effect of bucket prices here as Amtrak may sell more rooms at lower buckets than high buckets with increased capacity but this is back of the envelope computation here.

So 62% of FY13 $37.6 million is $23.3 million for the additional sleeper revenue that Amtrak could/should get from the Viewliner IIs. This does not include increased operating costs, the expected reduction in maintenance costs, nor the benefits of improved equipment reliability (one hopes).


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Per Passenger Train Journal the sleeping cars are going to name for "rivers", and the viewliners 1 sleeping cars will be renamed to "rivers".

Dinning cars will get Eastern state capital names.

whiteriverproductions.com


----------



## jis

And the name Trenton will be reserved for future use, since it is the only eastern capital in alphabetical order that does not have a car assigned to it at present.


----------



## neroden

Dollars_and_sense said:


> So, basically, Amtrak is...


No. 2.17M/year PER SLEEPING CAR.
Multiply by 25 cars to get about $100M/year in revenue. (Substantially less in profit after operations costs, of course.)

Call me optimistic, but I think still think this estimate will be roughly correct by the time the new Viewliners come into operation, assuming OTP recovers.

The current sleeping cars have a huge chunk of space taken up by staff (over half of a car on each train), so they're performing much worse than an added sleeping car should. I have no idea how the OBS staff wangled solo compartments in their union contact; this is an example of Amtrak having a much cushier union contract than the pre-Amtrak railroads.



afigg said:


> In FY2013, the total sleeper revenue from the LSL, Silver Star, Silver Meteor, Crescent, Cardinal was $37.6 million. That was spread over 39 sleeper cars in regular service rotation. Of course, without crew-dorm cars, a lot of roomettes are taken up by OBS and lost to revenue sales. Still, less than $1 million per sleeper car.


Roughly half a car is taken up by staff on each train; more on some, less on others. Something like a quarter of the sleeper space is used on the staff, who have really excellent union contracts. So, um, spread that revenue over roughly *30* cars, and you get around $1.3 million per car. The Crescent has poor utilization south of Atlanta; it isn't profitable to add cars there; so the revenue number for cars assigned elsewhere is better than that.
FY2013 was a very bad year for OTP, though (and so was FY2014). I've been trying to use FY2012 numbers.

The average car in the CAF order costs $2.3 million/car. Sleepers probably cost a bit more -- call it $2.6 million to be conservative. Suppose you assume it costs $800K/year to operate & maintain (which is a wild-ass-guess and probably MUCH MUCH too high -- I think it's probably more like $300K/year). Even if you go with a $1.3 million/year estimate for revenue, you're STILL breaking even in 6 years. If you use more optimistic estimates for revenue, expenses, and the capital cost of the cars, each sleeping car might pay for itself in 2 years!

(Of course, the revenue won't materialize if the "freight" railroads continue to get away with their lawbreaking practices of sabotaging Amtrak. But that's another issue.)

It's worth recalling that Amtrak originally intended to order 100 Viewliner sleeping cars, and only ordered 50 due to cash deprivation. The additional 25 (total of 75) don't even get Amtrak back to the level Amtrak originally planned to have in 1990, when demand was much lower than today.

It should be *expected* that additional Viewliner sleeping cars will have incredibly fast payback times: I really would bet on 2 years rather than 6 years, but call it 6 years to be conservative.



> The expenditures on baggage cars and dining cars don't pay for themselves, but they needed to be done anyway.


It is, indeed, very hard to calculate the added revenue from having checked baggage service vs. not having it. (And with the Heritage baggage cars collapsing, "not having checked baggage" is the alternative to the new baggage cars.) So it's not straightforward to figure out how long it'll take the baggage cars to pay for themselves. Amtrak seems to think that the value of checked baggage service (in terms of attracting passengers) is significant and outweighs the costs -- Amtrak has recently added checked baggage service to a number of stations and believes that this was a positive to the bottom line. But I can't put any numbers on it.
For the dining cars it's somewhat easier to compute, as we have an example of a previous period when Amtrak trashed dining car service at the behest of Congress and promptly lost 13% of *all* ticket revenue on the affected trains. I have not sat down to do an estimate based on this. Based on 2014 revenue from the trains running Heritage dining cars, this would be about $18 million/year. (And these use about 18 dining cars, including shop count.) Unfortunately the dining cars are expensive to operate -- I have no idea how expensive, really -- in a worst-case scenario, it might actually be higher than $1 million/year, in which case the dining cars simply wouldn't pay for themselves. At a more plausible $700K/year in running/maintenance costs, they do pay for themselves, but it takes around 8 years. This is a much worse result than for the sleeping cars.

It seems to me that the payback on the sleepers is much, much clearer than for the baggage or dining cars. (Provided you can assign them to trains where the latent demand exists, of course -- not to the Crescent south of Atlanta.)

Of course, this may be another reason why Amtrak management is pushing the baggage cars and dining cars to the front of the queue. Intangible railroad know-how means management knows they need to replace these, but it's much harder to put solid numbers on the benefits, so when penny-pinching micromanagers show up, the baggage car and dining car orders are harder to defend. (Still, every year without the extra sleeping cars is revenue foregone, and so this political decision is costing Amtrak money.)

A sleeping car order can, if necessary, be defended with pretty-easy-to-generate numbers, even in a hostile environment. Paulus guessestimated $200 million in increased revenue from Acela II; at 28 trainsets and $40 million/trainset, the capital costs are $1.12 billion; that's a 6-year payback time.

Right now, *Viewliner sleeping cars are probably a better investment than Acela II.* (This is due to the extreme shortage of Viewliner sleeping cars, of course; at some point, after ordering enough Amtrak will have the "right number" and it will become unwise to order more.)


----------



## Paulus

> For the dining cars it's somewhat easier to compute, as we have an example of a previous period when Amtrak trashed dining car service at the behest of Congress and promptly lost 13% of *all* ticket revenue on the affected trains.


13.6% of ridership, though I'd love to see what routes they were and the ridership figures. Would also be good to see the cost figures: A ridership drop may still well have been a financially beneficial move given.



> Unfortunately the dining cars are expensive to operate -- I have no idea how expensive, really -- in a worst-case scenario, it might actually be higher than $1 million/year, in which case the dining cars simply wouldn't pay for themselves. At a more plausible $700K/year in running/maintenance costs, they do pay for themselves, but it takes around 8 years.


Are you including labor costs in running or just fuel, switching, and maintenance?



> The average car in the CAF order costs $2.3 million/car. Sleepers probably cost a bit more -- call it $2.6 million to be conservative. Suppose you assume it costs $800K/year to operate & maintain (which is a wild-ass-guess and probably MUCH MUCH too high -- I think it's probably more like $300K/year). Even if you go with a $1.3 million/year estimate for revenue, you're STILL breaking even in 6 years. If you use more optimistic estimates for revenue, expenses, and the capital cost of the cars, each sleeping car might pay for itself in 2 years!


Couple things

1) Annual revenue on Viewliner sleepers in use was around the $950K range on the dailies. A 37% increase in revenue for an unstaffed Viewliner, while it will have more rooms available, seems to me optimistic, especially since such a major increase in the number of rooms should depress the revenue per passenger.

2) Not all sleeper revenue is incremental revenue. While I figure that linens and whatnot are going to be a fairly marginal cost, you need to account for the F&B allocation of the sleeper ticket which will drop down the revenue somewhat

3) You'll have a few that don't make any money all year due to acting as spares or some maintenance hold (not any individual one, but a certain percentage at any given time equates to the equivalent).

Interestingly, while doing the numbers, it looks like coaches, on a per-car basis, brought in significantly more money per day and per year than do the sleepers, even before accounting for any sleeper expenses. Belated edit: Doesn't account for amount of space taken up by crew.


----------



## neroden

I reran the numbers again using a different set of principles, and I get a more pessimistic 600K/year in profit for each new sleeper. It's *still* an extremely good return on investment, as good as the Acela IIs.



> Interestingly, while doing the numbers, it looks like coaches, on a per-car basis, brought in significantly more money per day and per year than do the sleepers, even before accounting for any sleeper expenses. Belated edit: Doesn't account for amount of space taken up by crew.


That's almost certainly because you did the numbers wrong.

Roughly *half a sleeper on each train* is wasted for crew space and shouldn't be considered available sleeper space. Get your denominator right and try again.

There are a ridiculous number of rooms taken up by staff, including the coach attendants and cafe attendants, but perhaps most expensively, the dining car staff. (Hence my suggestion not so long ago to find some way to get the dining car staff off the train at night, by only hooking the dining car up in the daytime.)

I've seen historic "crew cars", and crew got bunk beds (in space terms, pretty much equivalent to dual occupancy in Viewliner roomettes). I have no idea how they wangled single occupancy in their current union contracts, but it's a very cushy contract clause which is costing Amtrak a lot of money. Maybe it had something to do with the switch to mixed-gender crews and sex panics in the 1950s/1960s?

Anyway, I guesstimate the foregone revenue as about $80,000/year/roomette on the Lake Shore Limited. So add $80K per year to the salaries and benefits of each OBS employee to get a true costs estimate. (Would have been $40K with double occupancy).

This means that it's really costing something like $400K/year just to haul a five-person dining car staff around overnight! This is very substantial. It's probably not accounted for in the F&B numbers, either. Since the dining car isn't serving overnight, if the staff could be dropped at a hotel in the evening and picked up in the morning, would it be cheaper? Yes, it would, and it would be a lot cheaper. A hotel room in most cities (such as Buffalo, NY) costs far less than a roomette.

---

Every time I look at this, the dining cars look more and more expensive under current methods of operation. I believe dining car costs are being (mis)attributed to the high-value sleeping cars in order to keep the dining cars around. (The coach attendants also get free roomettes, of course, which is also not accounted to the coaches.) And yet I don't think there's anything essential -- in fact, I don't think there's anything customer-facing -- about the aspects of the operation which are so extremely expensive.

The cafe cars are no substitute, and I think it's really valuable to be able to get fresh-cooked eggs or oatmeal in the morning. But why does this require hauling 5 employees by single-occupancy roomette overnight? It shouldn't! They aren't cooking or serving overnight!

This may partly be *another* issue which is due to the trains not running on time, and it may partly be due to running too-few trains on the routes. If the train runs on time, you can pick up your dining car crew in the early morning and have them serve breakfast; if there are many trains per day on the route, you can then send 'em back home on a later train. You want sleeper & coach attendants on board at night because they need to actually *work* at night, but the same is not true of the dining car staff.

But when the train *doesn't run on time*, you need to keep the staff on board because you have no idea where the train will be at any given time. And when there isn't another train, you can't return the staff the same day, either. And this has huge overhead costs.

When the Empire Builder was unable to keep schedule, a number of us discussed the idea of simply keeping three engineers and three conductors on board in rotating shifts -- which would eliminate crew time-out problems. However (apart from nonsensical FRA rules) it would also require providing at least four sleeper berths. The situation with the OBS crew is like that, only worse.

The inability to keep time creates problems beyond the obvious ones: it prevents more efficient methods of operation from working.


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> Interestingly, while doing the numbers, it looks like coaches, on a per-car basis, brought in significantly more money per day and per year than do the sleepers, even before accounting for any sleeper expenses. Belated edit: Doesn't account for amount of space taken up by crew.
> 
> 
> 
> That's almost certainly because you did the numbers wrong.
> Roughly *half a sleeper on each train* is wasted for crew space and shouldn't be considered available sleeper space. Get your denominator right and try again.
Click to expand...

'Tis the same, except for the Cardinal unless staffing is lower and only a quarter of Cardinal sleeper is unavailable, then coach again has higher revenue per car. LSL comes close, it's only a $35K difference with the lower capacity, but it also the worst performing coaches (annually) behind the thrice weeklies and the Capitol Limited (it also has the best performing sleepers).

The Superliners actually do worse, in terms of revenue per car, than do the Amfleet/Viewliner trains.



> Yes, it would, and it would be a lot cheaper. A hotel room in most cities (such as Buffalo, NY) costs far less than a roomette.


Costs even less with a steady contract for it (or even less if you do what Amtrak ought to do and build hotels at their own stations for a degree of vertical integration).


----------



## neroden

I'm not remotely surprised that the Superliners do worse than the single-level trains. All the ticket prices are lower, and the coach-sleeper differential is also lower. And frankly most of them are not filling up most of the year (coach or sleeper).

FWIW, even if you find lower revenue per car (and I'm still extremely suspicious you've got your calculations wrong), much of that is going to be an artifact of short-haul passengers being charged more. For some reason, Amtrak charges significantly less for NYP-CHI (in the same class of service) than it does for NYP-SYR + SYR-CHI. I've never figured out why, and this should probably be changed. (The same is true on a smaller scale, for NYP-ALB / ALB-SYR, for instance. And it's even more extreme on the western trains.) I don't think this actually reflects people's price-sensitivities, so it seems really weird, and I don't know why Amtrak continues to do it -- surely the money of a short-haul passenger is as good as the money of a long-haul passenger? Why give such large discounts for the long-haul? But anyway, the short-haul passengers are disproportionately in coach; and this doesn't mean anything when you're deciding whether to add more cars, *unless* there's a large number of unserved short-haul passengers.

It is still almost certainly more valuable to add a sleeping car to a train like the LSL than to add a coach car, since most of the time the coaches aren't full (short-haul demand is satisfied), and the sleepers are full (long-haul demand isn't satisfied), even though sleeper prices are going up faster than coach prices. If the coaches were consistently filling up and the sleepers weren't, that would of course imply that adding a coach was more valuable.

I may, of course, be biased by looking at the LSL (my local train),... where not only does it have the best performing sleepers and the worst-performing coaches, but in fact the amount of room space occupied by staff is *more* than half of a car (about 60% actually, more when extra coaches are added as happens sometimes). Furthermore, the averages conceal the fact that the NY sleepers do much better than the Boston sleeper (which is usually the last to fill up).

I haven't bothered to look carefully into the numbers on the Florida trains, or their rates of selling out. Maybe their coaches are filling up faster than on the LSL, and their sleepers less quickly.

The key thing is to match the consist to the market. If the passengers you're turning away at the ticket office due to sellouts are travelling "sleeper" numbers of hours, you put sleepers on the train; if they are travelling "coach" numbers of hours, you put coaches on the train. Of course this calls for somewhat more rational relationships between fares and distances.

As a result of an artificially small Viewliner order back in 1990 which did not cover normal replacement, combined with the removal of Heritage dorm cars without replacement, I believe that the market which would be served by additional Viewliner sleeping cars is very strong. People have, off the top of their heads, named several trains which could have sleepers attached to them which would probably attract passengers who are not currently travelling on those trains. (The Pennsy-CL through cars, and #66/#67 among others.)

The same is *not* true for Superliner sleeping cars, where there seem to be enough to attach them to all trains where they might be appropriate, and arguably an excess (Amtrak has scraped up extras on short notice repeatedly).

----

I had one funny thought about fares recently. In some parts of the country, people seem to think the sleeper fares are very high, perhaps because they are comparing them to local hotels. Even though the sleeper fares are much higher on the routes to NYC than they are elsewhere, they seem quite reasonable if you're comparing them to *New York City* hotel prices. (They don't seem that high by Chicago prices, either.) Different expectations regarding hotel prices may partly account for the variation in how much Amtrak can charge for sleepers on different routes. This would imply that sleeping cars to cheap-hotel areas would do poorly.


----------



## Paulus

Here's a cleaned up and happier looking spreadsheet for the single levels with some additional numbers on it. Feel free to tweak with it as need be, it's using your approximation on employee sleeper use (except for the Cardinal at 0.75) and this consist info, though with FY12 ridership and revenue. I've erred on the side of caution by including the seasonal Meteor coach year round.

At a guess: Coach has twice the seat turnover of sleepers (reasonable) but manages to put a butt in each seat at some point during the day, while sleepers only manage half of that. Two major possible reasons, assuming number of available sleeper seats properly calculated: 1) The turnover point for a room is ill suited for reselling that room for quite some time (generally speaking) and 2) Many rooms are sold at less than full occupancy (such as a single person in a roomette).


----------



## neroden

Thanks very much, Paulus.

I think you're right that the turnover point for a room is generally ill suited for reselling it (Tampa is a particularly good example for this.) Single occupancy roomettes are also common (we know that), but pay Amtrak the same amount as double occupancy roomettes.

I tweaked "sleepers per consist" based on my most recent estimates of staffing levels (which were based on the Blue Book rules). I counted this by taking 12 roomettes + 3 bedrooms - # of staff, divided by 15. This gives the following number of sleepers per consist:

Star 1.46

Cardinal 0.73

Meteor 2.46

LSL 2.33

Crescent 1.46

When I do so, I get the result that the sleepers gain more revenue than coaches on the Lake Shore Limited (by $56K), but not on the other trains. Note that this is *highly* sensitive to the denominator; with a denominator of 2.34 on the LSL, you get the result that the sleepers are only $50K better than the coaches. Hence my use of two decimal places in the denominator.

So, very interesting. I was misgeneralizing from my experience.

The Cardinal is also pretty close to even (coaches are $43K better). I expect that daily service would allow for higher prices in both sleepers and coach, but I think it would tilt the balance towards the sleepers. The sleepers on the Cardinal sell out pretty regularly but are *also* cheap compared to the LSL or CL -- they are probably hitting a price wall, and it's probably partly due to less-than-daily service. Three-a-week needs to end.

The Star/Meteor/Crescent are doing much better in coach than I would have expected. Part of this is the large number of short-haul passengers, presumably. (Which aren't present on the the LSL, and the three-a-week schedule and unreliability of the Cardinal probably means there are relatively few there either.)

The Silver Star has particularly strong coach results. These are probably related to its Miami-Tampa function. The sleepers are probably half-or-more empty from Miami to Tampa. If it didn't require a maintenance facility, and if it didn't run up against PRIIA rules, it would really make more sense to terminate the Star in Tampa and run a separate Tampa-Miami train -- and I think this is what is showing up in the numbers there.

It is also notable that the Palmetto has exceptionally high revenue per coach seat.

I'll have to rerun the analysis with 2013 and 2014 numbers just for comparison, to see how sensitive it is to different years.

Anyway, this analysis shows about $1.2-$1.3 million in revenue per Viewliner sleeper; more on the LSL, less on the Cardinal as long as it's 3-a-week. I know of no way to estimate maintenance or added fuel costs (tell me if you do), so I've been spitballing $300K/year. The sleeper attendant, I'm estimating at $100K/year (including benefits and whatnot). The calculations are pretty insensitive to these numbers though; if an additional sleeper can be filled at the same prices, the payback period remains **very short**. The fairly common sellouts indicate to me that an additional sleeper can be filled at pretty much the same prices.

If an added coach could be filled on the Star, Meteor, or Crescent at the same prices, it would likely be more valuable. I'm not sure whether it can, though. I'm sure the added sleepers can be filled.

The other conclusion this leads me to is that *Amtrak should beef up NY-Chicago service.* (A conclusion I was inclined to believe already.) The first assignments of the new sleeping cars should be the LSL, the Pennsy-Cap through cars, and a daily Cardinal. And a night train on the NEC -- NOT carrying a dining car overnight -- to test the current demand there. Perhaps the one Anderson suggested, overnight from NYC-Richmond, continuing to Hampton Roads. Or perhaps the Boston-Washington night train, #66/67. Actually, both should be tried.

I would say that Florida service may not need extra sleeping cars quite as much... but the sleeping cars to Florida are selling out too. Very frequently. Sleeping car prices on those routes can probably be jacked up a bit more (and probably will be), at which point the sleepers will be making more than the coaches. Unless, of course, the coaches are selling out too, and the coach prices can be jacked up to match... which may be the case.

Some more long-distance configuration coaches would certainly be useful too. I'm not denying that. The sleepers are a more urgent new-build priority, because (as soon as the Midwest/California bilevels arrive) Horizons or Amfleets can be reconfigured as long-distance coaches; an injection of 78 Horizon coaches, reconfigured for long-distance service, would alleviate long-distance coach problems for a while. It's about the right number to re-equip the Star, Meteor, Crescent, and Palmetto, which would get the Horizons out of the cold weather.

----

As already noted, the dining cars in current operation really do seem very expensive. They need a lot of patronage in order to cover the fixed costs of running a dining car at all.

In 1982 the trains affected with loss of dining cars lost 13.6% of ridership. I will make a very generous estimate of 13.6% of all revenue. Since the lost ridership is probably preferentially longer-distance, and longer-distance trips have had discounted fares for some unknown reason, this number is probably too high. The highest-revenue Viewliner train in 2012 is the Silver Meteor at $39773225, and it's done worse in 2013 and 2014. 13.6% of this is $5,409,158.60. If I instead assume the government-suggested 10% revenue allocation, I only get $3,977,323.50.

But the dining car has a staff of five. At $100,000 each (including benefits), plus $70,000 in foregone revenue per staff-occupied roomette (this is a lowball estimate), and 4 trainsets, adding $100K in maintenance per year per car (another low-end guess), that's $3,800,000 in operations costs per year. Without including the cost of the actual food, though it also doesn't include the income from the food. This number is probably too low. If I instead assume $80K in foregone revenue per roomette and $300K in maintenance per year per car, I get $4.8 million. (Note that if you had double-occupancy staff roomettes you could cut $160K/year off of this.)

A similar calculation for the LSL gives costs of $2.95 to 3.9 million; 13.6% of revenue is $4.46 million, 10% is $3.28 million. The cost of carrying around those five employees is very high.

In order for the dining cars to be reliably positive for Amtrak's bottom line, they have to handle more passengers per day. This means longer trains; more seatings per meal; more tables per seating. A Superliner dining car seats 72, where a Viewliner dining car only seats 48. Once the trains are long enough, adding half a car as a table car seems wise to me. Maybe Amfleet I BC/cafe cars could be pressed into service, if there are enough of them.

Woody's right again -- the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak. Only a long, full train can really support a dining car.

----

The Superliner trains eventually sell out too, but at relatively lower prices, considering distance. I checked just now for December 17th (a random Wednesday). I can get a roomette from Chicago to LA for $756, one from Chicago to Emeryville for $791, from Chicago to NY (a much shorter distance) for $557, from Chicago to DC for $369 (the Capitol Limited is *weak*), New York-New Orleans is $756, and I can't get a roomette from New York to Miami at all, because they're sold out (there's one Bedroom available).


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Anyway, this analysis shows about $1.2-$1.3 million in revenue per Viewliner sleeper; more on the LSL, less on the Cardinal as long as it's 3-a-week. I know of no way to estimate maintenance or added fuel costs (tell me if you do), so I've been spitballing $300K/year. The sleeper attendant, I'm estimating at $100K/year (including benefits and whatnot).
> 
> ....


You are seriously underestimating the cost of providing the sleeper attendant unless you want the poor LSA to work non-stop 365 days a year. Where he/she would rack up major overtime. I don't know the details of their trip rotation, but to fill that LSA position over the course of a year for 365 trips must take 3 to 4 LSAs on the employee roster. So $300K or more for the LSA position for the Viewliner sleeper car is a more viable estimate.
That is why implementing the plan mentioned in the OIG report to have LSAs split a sleeper car is so important to the bottom line. Dig up the 2011 PRIIA PIP report on the Crescent with the proposed modification to have 1 LSA support the 2 sleeper cars with 8 roomettes occupied by the OBS. The projected staff cost savings, spread over all consists, so it is not just 1 sleeper car per trip, was $0.9 million. The Crescent takes 30 hours NYP to NOL, so the staffing cost is effectively ~3 sleeper cars at any one time or ~$300K per revenue car.

In the current Crescent configuration with 2 LSAs and 8 roomettes occupied by 8 OBS, there are 16 roomettes and 6 bedrooms for revenue sale. The net projected gain in the 2011 PIP, was $0.2 million from the additional roomette sale revenue plus $0.9 million in cost savings for a total of $1.1 million. Pretty significant improvement.

If the Crescent is expanded to 3 Viewliner sleepers but no bag-dorm car, with the assumption that the 50 existing sleepers will be updated to the 11 roomette + shared bathrooms configuration, that will provide a total of 33 roomettes plus 9 bedrooms. But 8 of those roomettes are used for OBS.

If Amtrak adds a 3rd Viewliner sleeper to the Crescent and keeps the LSA staffing at 2, with them spliting the center sleeper car, freeing up the center LSA roomette for an OBS person, the net revenue capacity will be 33 roomettes - 8 OBS + 1 LSA roomette = 26 roomettes plus 9 bedrooms. The LSA staffing cost will remain the same for the Crescent, so the net gain is 10 roomettes plus 3 bedrooms for revenue sale. I figure that in practice that the spare LSA roomette will be occupied by one of the OBS to keep the passengers in the standard roomettes.

For the LSL, adding bag-dorm and a sleeper car to the NYP section is going to add a lot of capacity. If 8 roomettes are occupied by the NYP OBS, then the NYP section will go from 16 available roomettes + 6 bedrooms to, if 2 LSAs cover the 3 NYP sleeper cars, to 34 roomettes + 9 bedrooms.


----------



## Paulus

I've added the Superliner trains (except Auto Train) along with the Surfliner and Cascades to the same document. I went with a different assumption this time around and did not add in the dorm car or any seasonal sleepers (though seasonal and short distance coaches were retained for full year and distance). I also didn't try figuring out how to handle the Texas Eagle's through cars. Sleepers generally significantly outperform coach and Viewliner in this case. Seat turnover in coach is markedly reduced however due to the giant expanses of nothing at all whatsoever that the routes traverse.

As an aside, doing this pointed out just how bad the Sunset Limited is: It only has two revenue cars (plus another two for the Eagle), not counting the dorm car.



neroden said:


> Anyway, this analysis shows about $1.2-$1.3 million in revenue per Viewliner sleeper; more on the LSL, less on the Cardinal as long as it's 3-a-week. I know of no way to estimate maintenance or added fuel costs (tell me if you do), so I've been spitballing $300K/year. The sleeper attendant, I'm estimating at $100K/year (including benefits and whatnot). The calculations are pretty insensitive to these numbers though; if an additional sleeper can be filled at the same prices, the payback period remains **very short**. The fairly common sellouts indicate to me that an additional sleeper can be filled at pretty much the same prices.
> 
> If an added coach could be filled on the Star, Meteor, or Crescent at the same prices, it would likely be more valuable. I'm not sure whether it can, though. I'm sure the added sleepers can be filled.


Prices and Costs in the Railway Sector quotes an average maintenance cost of 0.4 euros per vehicle-kilometer. Converted and inflated, it's 77 cents per vehicle-mile. Viewliner trains run about 4.27 million train-miles with 17 consists (or about 250,000 miles per consist) which would be about $193K per car. If we want to keep using the same source for diesel while doing foul and unspeakable things to statistics, a Viewliner weighs about 59 metric tons and consumes about 31,350 gallons of diesel (this matches with another calculation that's not so abusive, so right order of magnitude) or about $100K in fuel costs per year. So pretty decent spitball.

Alternative maintenance calculation: Viewliner programs cost ~$7.5 million per year which would be ~$147K per car.

As for adding at the same prices, I'd be really doubtful of that. We didn't see that with the Cardinal when it added a second sleeper and I think adding that many more rooms is likely going to result in a major drop to per passenger revenue.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> You are seriously underestimating the cost of providing the sleeper attendant unless you want the poor LSA to work non-stop 365 days a year. Where he/she would rack up major overtime. I don't know the details of their trip rotation, but to fill that LSA position over the course of a year for 365 trips must take 3 to 4 LSAs on the employee roster. So $300K or more for the LSA position for the Viewliner sleeper car is a more viable estimate.


OK, I dug up some information. Comment #1 is informative:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/10/amtrak-food-service

Sooo, the attendants are paid by the hour, $28/hour. This means that *faster trains cost less*.

On the LSL the trip is supposed to be 19 hours west, 20 east. (Call it 21 because of delays.) So: take 21 hours/departure * 365 departures/direction/year * 2 directions == 15330 hours/year. Divide by 3 consists. Multiply by $28/hour. So the attendants for one car (on the LSL) should cost $143080 in wages.

*Note that slicing one hour off the runtime is worth ~$6800 per car per year.* In wages alone. Delays and slow schedules *hurt* a *lot*.

Here's an attempt to estimate benefits. The same comment suggests 160 hours of work per month for an OBS employee, or 1920 hours/year. The LSL runs for about 15330 hours/year, so each consist runs for about 5110 hours/year. So each car requires about 2.66 employees.

Amtrak claimed in the September 2014 report that "premium based" benefits plus "FELA benefits" averaged about $20,146 per agreement employee, and that "payroll based" benefits cost about 19% of payroll. So $143080 * 1.19 + 2.66 * $20,146 ~= $223853. (I ignored "other benefits" because they're erratic, and actually negative some months.)

So, you can estimate the cost of all the sleeper attendants for one car on the LSL at $225K.

This may be an overestimate. I don't know if the attendants are actually paid to sleep (we can ask FormerOBS...) If they aren't, then this is a substantial overestimate.

You're right that having one attendant handle more rooms is worth a lot, of course. (It's not worth nearly as much as running the trains faster would be -- I estimate one hour less of runtime on the LSL to be worth $219K/year in OBS wages & benefits at current staffing levels. Since it would also increase revenues, it's obviously worth more.)

But the Viewliner sleeping cars *still* have a remarkably quick payback period. With $225K in wages & benefits, and $300K in maintenance & fuel, that's $525K. Except on the Cardinal, each car is generating $1.2 million/year in revenue conservatively. That's $675K/year in profit; with cars costing $2.3 million (the average from the Viewliner II order), that's a *four year payback*.

Just for Paulus: suppose that ticket yields drop by *25%*, so that each car is generating only $900K/year in revenue. Suppose that sleepers are far more expensive than the average car in the order at $2.6 million/car (probably a gross overestimate), that's still a *ten-year payback*. I think this is overly pessimistic.

(Of course, the expenses should come out different on the Florida trains as well. I haven't run the numbers there.)

----

These wage numbers have more of an impact on the dining cars, with their 5 staff members. Figure $300K in fuel and maintenance, $1.12 million in wages & benefits, $350K in foregone revenue from roomettes. Then each dining car somehow has to raise at least $1.77 million in revenue (whether at the table, or from more tickets purchased, or from higher ticket prices) just to break even. This number may be low because of extra maintenance costs on a dining car for the cooking equipment, extra costs for the plates & glasses, higher wages for the LSA, etc.

To get a 10-year payback, the dining car needs to be raising another $230K-$260K/year on top of that, so call it $2 million in revenue per car.

It needs to be attracting a *lot* of passengers to raise that much. Even if we take the assumption of 13.6% of revenue from the LSL -- which really seems much too optimistic even to me -- that's only $4.46 million for 3 consists, or $1.49 million in attributable revenue per dining car.

This barely covers fuel+maintenance+wages+benefits (which is $1.42 million), doesn't cover the lost revenue from staff in roomettes, and never pays for itself.

Cutting staff would help some, but the dining cars are still very expensive to operate. If the dining car could be run with only three employees, I make it out to be $1.18 million in costs and foregone revenue. With a more pessimistic assumption of 10% of revenue -- which is still likely to be too optimistic -- there's only $1.09 in attributable revenue per dining car, so it's still not profitable.

Trying to bend things as favorably as I can to the dining cars, suppose that maintenance + fuel is only $250K, and that three employees are only $650K, and we manage to figure out how to get them out of the roomettes (perhaps by detaching the dining cars at night) -- that's still $850K/car in costs. The payback period is still 10 years or more.

With current operational practices, the dining cars seem to be giving very poor return on investment.

There needs to be a way to run the dining car which generates more revenue per worker. Maybe it still needs 5 workers, but if so, those 5 workers need to be handling *far more customers per day*.

It seems that to support a dining car at current wage levels, a train needs to be really, really long, as well as commanding a high premium for the dining service. 6 coaches and 2.4 sleepers (the current LSL) isn't enough. 6 bilevel sleepers and 5 bilevel coaches (the Auto Train) might be enough.

Anecdote time! On my most recent trip, I sat with one woman in the dining car (going from NY to Schenectady in coach) who had just taken the LSL for the first time, having usually taken the Empire Service. She had been startled to discover the dining car; ordered three bottles of wine; and said she was now planning to preferentially take the LSL in the future even when the tickets were more expensive, just to get the food. There's the sort of passenger who the dining car really makes money on!



Paulus said:


> As for adding at the same prices, I'd be really doubtful of that. We didn't see that with the Cardinal when it added a second sleeper and I think adding that many more rooms is likely going to result in a major drop to per passenger revenue.


We'll see about that. I think you're wrong.

The Cardinal's extra sleeper has been on for less than a year, and it missed most of the peak months.

The Cardinal is also a particularly extreme case of expansion. My numbers show that salable sleeper capacity was multiplied by 2.36 -- this isn't going to happen on the other trains, where you're getting more like a 1.5 multiplier.

Also, more importantly, there was no advance notice, so people looking six months in advance saw "sold out", which is bound to suppress ridership. Let's look again when it's been running for a year. It'll take some time for people to realize that the sleepers are even *available*, if they're used to them being sold out.

Even with all of this, the yield drop on the Cardinal was 25% in the *first month* -- and within a couple of months it promptly started selling out on the weekends again, so the prices have probably gone up again. I should take a look at the more recent months' numbers, which I haven't.

Prices might drop a bit in the short term -- they probably will, particularly if the added capacity isn't bookable at the usual 11 months in advance. But if prices promptly resume their inexorable climb up, and are back where they were before in about a year, then in my opinion they were pretty much added at the same prices.

Obviously there's some point at which there will be too many sleepers for profitable demand, and so adding more would require substantial, lasting, and detrimental price drops. I simply don't think most of the Viewliner trains are close to that. Maybe the Cardinal is while it's three-a-week, which suppresses demand, but it wouldn't be if it went daily.

However, some of the Superliner trains arguably passed that point long ago, given the typical sleeper ticket prices which are *much* lower per mile. Like, *half* as much. The Superliner ticket prices look even lower on a per hour basis, since the Superliner trains mostly run slower than the Viewliner trains. (And wages are paid per hour. Because of labor costs, slow trains are very expensive to run.)

...I'm actually going to amend what Woody said. The cures for what ails Amtrak are (a) more Amtrak, and (b) *faster* Amtrak. Because of the dominance of hourly wages in Amtrak's cost structure, slow trains are much more expensive to operate than fast trains -- and of course they get less revenue, too.


----------



## Ziv

Neroden, I like your quote about "more Amtrak and faster Amtrak". And "faster" doesn't necessarily require 125 mpg sections, it could be done by reducing the slow sections of the trips. I think that a lot of run time could be reduced by more and more double/triple tracking, but the problem is the usual suspects, no money and freight rail intransigence.

Getting the average speed on from mid-50's to mid-60's on the scheduled times would be a huge benefit, but I have my doubts about it happening in the near term.


----------



## afigg

Ziv said:


> Neroden, I like your quote about "more Amtrak and faster Amtrak". And "faster" doesn't necessarily require 125 mpg sections, it could be done by reducing the slow sections of the trips. I think that a lot of run time could be reduced by more and more double/triple tracking, but the problem is the usual suspects, no money and freight rail intransigence.
> 
> Getting the average speed on from mid-50's to mid-60's on the scheduled times would be a huge benefit, but I have my doubts about it happening in the near term.


The way to improve average speeds for the LD trains is through expanded corridor services. That is where the money is for track and capacity improvements aimed at passenger rail. The Crescent is going to benefit from the double tracking and upgrades in NC from Greensboro to Charlotte and the VA state funded upgrades from Alexandria to Lynchburg. The Silvers will benefit from improvements in VA and NC. The Texas Eagle from the CHI-STL corridor. And so on.
The upgrades won't be along the entire route of the LD train, but better trip times over 100 to 400 mile segments at either end of the route or a segment in the middle along with shared station costs will help a lot.


----------



## Bob

After 13 years of service, yes OBS staff are at 100% pay and make $28/hour. Many make a good deal less than that. They are not paid to sleep. 4 hours each direction (with some exceptions where it's 6 hours each direction for EB, CZ, and SL) OBS employees are not paid regardless of whether they have stops to man, beds to make, or anything else to do which most people would be expected to be compensated for doing while at their place of employment. That is their "rest time" regardless of whether they are allowed to rest and are not paid.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thanks for the update on OBS Compensation!

Question: during the layovers in San Antonio and Spokane on #1 and #2 and #7/#27/#8/#28 where the SCAs are on duty outside their cars are they being paid for this time since they are not "resting"? (I know that the #421/#422 SCAs and Coach Attendants change out in SAS with #21/#22 OBS but the #1 and #2 ones do the whole route from NOL- LAX)


----------



## Ryan

So for a 47 hour Empire Builder trip, they're paid for 41 hours? Sounds reasonable.


----------



## neroden

All right. So using substantially-too-high estimates for wages (I need to slice off about 20% for the 4-hour rest time) and slightly-too-high estimates for maintenance, I *still* get a four-year payback period on the Viewliner sleeping cars. At current staffing levels. I ran it again using more accurate estimates, but I think I've proven my point.

*If the sleeping cars can be filled at current or near-current ticket prices, they are a highly profitable investment. Period. The payback is as quick as Acela II, and possibly faster. Even if average ticket prices drop substantially the sleepers are still an excellent investment.*

The dining cars are another matter. If I reduce the wage estimate to account for 8-hour rest time (out of 21 hours), there are still roughly $693K in staffing costs for 5 staff members. Add in the $275K in fuel & maintenance (an optimistic estimate), and the $350K in foregone sleeper revenue (again optimistic), and each dining car needs to generate about $1.318 million in revenue to break even. Again, 13.6% of revenue (probably too high an estimate) only attributes $1.49 million in revenue to each dining car on the LSL (and it's worse on the other trains). With a low $2.3 million estimate for the cost of the dining car, the resulting profit gives a 14-year payback. And those are *optimistic* assumptions.

Buying the new Viewliner sleeping cars is highly profitable for Amtrak. * Buying the new dining cars is at best minimally profitable. * I still believe they could be made much more profitable, but they have to be serving a lot more people per staff member, one way or another. I think the best way is probably a table car, provided it can be handled by the same number of staff members. (An Amfleet I, half table service, half corridor business class would do nicely.) "Point of sale" ordering / inventory tracking would probably help too. If the trains ran on time consistently, a bunch of other ideas could be pursued, but that still seems a long way away.

----

Anyway, all of this makes me *frustrated that the sleeping cars have been pushed back in the queue. *

I understand that Amtrak wants to dispose of the Heritage cars sooner rather than later, and that they don't want to create an interruption in dining car or baggage car service. But the baggage and dining cars will have fairly minor economic value to Amtrak (unless the Heritage maintanance costs are *far* higher than I think). With extremely pessimistic assumptions (25% drop in revenue), using the updated wage, benefits, maintenance, and fuel estimates, each sleeping car will generate $467K in profit per year; with more realistic assumptions of constant ticket yields, $767K.

Every year of delay on the 25-car sleeping car order is costing Amtrak somewhere between $10 and $20 million dollars (more if ticket prices go up). We have now run the numbers on this in enough detail that I'm pretty sure this is accurate. Amtrak could certainly use that money. If the excess maintenance costs of the Heritage cars are more than that... well, I'd be quite impressed. Maybe there is some technical problem which is delaying the sleeping cars (I hope that's the reason).

----



afigg said:


> The way to improve average speeds for the LD trains is through expanded corridor services. That is where the money is for track and capacity improvements aimed at passenger rail. The Crescent is going to benefit from the double tracking and upgrades in NC from Greensboro to Charlotte and the VA state funded upgrades from Alexandria to Lynchburg. The Silvers will benefit from improvements in VA and NC. The Texas Eagle from the CHI-STL corridor. And so on.


This is why I'd like to see one of the Chicago-East Coast trains run via Dearborn; the Dearborn-Chicago line is already being improved.

Short of this, if Michigan scheduled a single corridor train from Toledo through Dearborn to Chicago, departing Toledo in the morning after the westbound LSL, and arriving Toledo in the evening before the eastbound LSL, that would help a lot. Ideally these could be run as through cars.

This would work better if the eastbound LSL was on the earlier schedule as proposed in the PIP (departing Chicago at 6PM, departing Toledo at midnight, arriving Syracuse at 9 AM, arriving NY at 3PM). That puts the LSL in the slot currently occupied by Empire Service #284 from Niagara Falls, so an Empire Service train from Niagara Falls should then move to the LSL's old slot (departing Niagara Falls around 9 AM, arriving New York around 6 PM).

Then the eastbound Chicago-Dearborn-Toledo train is about an hour earlier than Wolverine #354 (and could be done as a rescheduled version of that train). It ends up taking the slot out of Chicago of the Pere Marquette (they could be fleeted, of course, or the Pere Marquette could be shifted later.) The westbound Toledo-Dearborn-Chicago train then ends up taking the slot of Wolverine #351 from Pontiac (but should run local with all stops). Unfortunately the commuter function of the Pontiac train means they probably both have to run, but the Pontiac train could turn around and head back to Pontiac if CN would allow another slot.

With some care, the southbound Silver Meteor departure from NY and WAS could then be moved later; this would allow LSL-Acela-Meteor connections at least, and possibly direct LSL-Meteor connections.

...ok, I ran off on a bit of a free-association tangent there. Scheduling is a juggling act.


----------



## hastybob

OK - finally something is happening. Special running today Albany to Elmira to pick up a bunch of cars. I understand it is to return sometime on Wednesday.


----------



## jis

Rumor has it that it may be as many as 20 cars - though I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Rumor has it that it may be as many as 20 cars - though I'll believe it when I see it.


I saw that claim on trainorders. I can see a move of a few cars, but 20 in one batch? I don't buy that. There have been 2 baggage cars out for testing - with few if any confirmed sightings except at or around Philly. The first sleeper, diner, bag-dorm car were sent back to Elmira months ago with no news since then on their status. They are going to go from 2 baggage test cars to 20 cars in one delivery? Put me in the I'll believe it when I see the video and (non-manipulated) photos group.
A delivery of a few baggage cars is a big deal, given the several years of delay from the original initial delivery date and lack of news on the Viewliner IIs the past several months.


----------



## west point

The heritage baggage cars are really long on the tooth. Any major failure of any car is going to reduce a train set of a baggage car as spares are almost non existence. Just look at Eagle' and CNOL's no bag car.j Note -- the Amtrak monthly report for FY 14 showed non having any overhauls. The Heritage diners are another story. Several diners had level 1 & 2 overhauls in FY 2014. They may be some kept in reserve for unexpected needs.

The sleeper situation is interesting. The point that the 7 - 11 month reservations seem to require sleepers to be placed on the schedule way in advance.

The new V-2s once broken in may be able to become cut off sleepers. Certain trains have ability to fill those berths. The Meteor could have a sleeper MIA - WASH and Crescent could have a ATL - WASH & a V-1 ATL - NYP + its NOL - NYP V-1. The Crescent would actually increase sleepers of a net of only 2. !! The WASH sleepers for both Meteor and Crescent could rotate between each train getting them to MIA maintenance within 4 days.

The PRIIA for Crescent stated that the Diner, 1 - 2 Coaches, 1 Loco, & 1 sleeper could come off at ATL except for the Mardi Gras time which is slow time for other trains. Note SOU RR actually ran only 3 days a week and did this and even ran extra sections ATL - WASH during high season and holidays. The savings of car miles and additional revenue would certainly be welcome for Crescent stats.

How to handle the awful station situation in ATL? It would require at least 2 Main track switches and a new siding. The Loco(s) on train could work the front and maybe a track mobile might be enough to work the rear of the train?


----------



## neroden

I actually might believe 20. The baggage cars have gone through their second round of testing (remember, one came out, was returned, then two came out), which was the number of originally planned rounds of testing. The baggage cars have apparently been tested on the Florida routes (there were some sightings as well as rumors from inside Amtrak), and of course they've been tested on the NEC and the Keystone and the Empire Corridor up to Albany. I don't know if they've been tested on the routes to Chicago, which would seem important for winter. But 20 is few enough that they could be deployed entirely on the routes where they've been tested (Star, Meteor, Palmetto, Carolinian, #66/67) + the Crescent.

The production line is clearly far ahead of the delivery rate, so getting a whole bunch of cars out is a process of going back to the backlog of mostly-finished but not-certified cars and making whatever tweaks or minor changes Amtrak requested after testing. And it looks like there weren't that many tweaks requested for the baggage cars. If this is a delivery of 20, don't expect so many at a time after that; this would be a matter of "playing catch-up".


----------



## Ryan




----------



## Ryan

Must be something special to send 42 up after them.


----------



## NewBags

Miami/Hialeah Yard is expecting one train to arrive Thursday or Friday with about a dozen cars. Additional delivery batches expected to follow monthly. No idea on the deployment schedule to revenue service, but hope it is quick. Finally some shiny new cars!


----------



## jis

So 20 sounds much more believable given that there are two trains planned to Hialeah.


----------



## west point

The post that this poster made about Atlanta omitted one important item. The Atlanta station is a disaster for passengers.. Passenger going north often stand outside the station waiting for the train. It only has about 6 double back benches and standing room is limited. Baggage service requires 90 minute early check in. The baggage has to use the only passenger elevator to trackside. Delivery for arriving passengers may take 1:15.

The elevator is located incorrectly so that NS has to halt freight traffic as the elevator to boarding crosses one MT.

All wall space is in use so no ATM, extra vending machines, only one Quick Track, other perks as well.

Additional passengers if more seats from ATL will only cause more confusion and delays.


----------



## neroden

west point said:


> The post that this poster made about Atlanta omitted one important item. The Atlanta station is a disaster for passengers.


Yeah, this is one of two reasons why Amtrak really really wants a new Atlanta station ASAP. The other is so that they can run some cars from NY to Atlanta and leave them in Atlanta rather than hauling them all the way to New Orleans.

Unfortunately there is no sign of funding for a new Atlanta station.


----------



## Big Iron

Would I be correct in stating the two trains to Hialeah would run through RVR? Would a non-revenue Amtrak train use the same crew change points as revenue trains.

I'm trying to anticipate picture taking opportunities.


----------



## Ryan

I would think so, yes.

I've been wondering to myself what would be easier, taking ~10 cars onto the end of a Silver Service train, or working with CSX to try and schedule a special move for them.


----------



## neroden

Hmm. Well, CSX is used to running long trains. It's a question of whether the motive power can handle 10 extra trailing cars. If they do run a special, on the other hand, they'd probably want to run all 20 at once...


----------



## battalion51

If two locomotives can handle a 40 car Auto Train, two locomotives can handle a 20 car single level train.


----------



## Acela150

battalion51 said:


> If two locomotives can handle a 40 car Auto Train, two locomotives can handle a 20 car single level train.


On top of that loaded auto racks.


----------



## neroden

I'd heard they sometimes ran Silver Service trains with one locomotive; I wasn't sure how often that happened. If it's routinely two, then the only issue would be platforms near grade crossings where the train might block additional crossings. I don't think that's going to bother anyone at Amtrak or CSX though.


----------



## Acela150

neroden said:


> I'd heard they sometimes ran Silver Service trains with one locomotive; I wasn't sure how often that happened. If it's routinely two, then the only issue would be platforms near grade crossings where the train might block additional crossings. I don't think that's going to bother anyone at Amtrak or CSX though.


They stopped using one P40/42 as they would fail with just one and it would tie up the main.


----------



## William W.

Looks like Amtrak is finally being more open when it comes to providing Viewliner II updates. They even provide a schedule of where the special train is going to be over the next few days:

http://blog.amtrak.com/2014/12/amtrakforward/

* Wednesday, December 17*

At 9:30 a.m. 18 new baggage cars depart Elmira, NY arriving in Albany, NY around 8:30 p.m.​*Thursday, December 18*
Special train departs New York arriving in Philadelphia after 3:30 a.m. Once in Philadelphia, the special train will add two additional baggage cars which have been tested on the Northeast Corridor.​Around 7:30 p.m. the special train will depart Philadelphia following two hours behind Silver Service Train 97, traveling through Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina Georgia and Florida.​*Friday, December 19*
Special train is expected to arrive in Hialeah around 9 p.m.​


----------



## VentureForth

Ooooo - this will be about 8:40 AM tomorrow morning as it comes through Savannah. Will have to find a vantage point to photograph from and make up an excuse for my boss.

So why are all these units going to the Hileah shop? Are they going to start rotating all the NEC baggage trains to eventually come through Miami, drop off the ancient beast and then pick up the new guy?

Are there 20 consists between the Meteor, Star, Crescent, LSL, and 66/67?

Will this be Amtrak or CSX power making the pull?


----------



## afigg

Well, I was wrong. CAF is indeed delivering 18 new baggage cars in a single batch. The 18 cars will join up with the 2 test cars at Philly for a special train with 20 baggage cars to Florida.



> Amtrak is moving forward and we want you to see it. Today, 18 new baggage cars will leave the CAF USA facility in Elmira, NY to travel south to our Amtrak Hialeah, FL maintenance facility for final inspection before acceptance.


This is going to be a one time only opportunity for videos of 20 brand new sparkling clean baggage cars in a row!

If the inspections and final testing can be done at Hialeah, then would we see the new cars sent north on the Silvers, maybe one at a time in use as the revenue service car which then gets pulled off at Sunnyside?


----------



## NE933

:-D

Smiling, dreaming, hoping for a better tomorrow aboard a better Amtrak.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Sounds like Ryan's contest might have a Winner coming soon!

While its good that the much needed bag cars are fixing to enter service, I look forward to the Diners ( I've eaten in 8400 Several times) and the Viewliner IIs entering Revenue Service in 2015!! (hopefully!)


----------



## jis

They will have almost enough to do most of the eastern trains as a starter, until it comes time for inspections. All Eastern overnight LD trains require 4+4+4+2+6 = 20. OTOH, I think Carolinian and Palmetto would be candidates for early deployment since these cars deployed on them would make them fit for 125mph. That does not happen to any of the LD overnights.

My guess - 3 to LSL, 4 to Palmetto/Carolinian, 8 to Silvers and 2 to Cardinal for now with 3 spare. Completely idle speculation...  

There is an unverified rumor posted on trainorders about 9 additional cars to be released from CAF later in the week.

I am seriously thinking of driving to Kissimmee on Friday afternoon to try to catch this special. Caught between two things to see. SpaceX Dragon launch for CRM-5 ISS resupply mission, from Canaveral Air Force Station, or the Viewliner II special at Kissimmee. I think I will opt for the latter since the former I can see many more times over the next 6 months and years.


----------



## MrFSS

I'll show my naiveté here, but are this 20 (total) dorm bags or simply baggage cars. If dorm cars they will give back so many rooms to real passengers, I guess!


----------



## Dutchrailnut

only baggage cars are accepted as of now.


----------



## jis

Yup. These 20 are full baggage cars. No bag-dorms in these.

I am not sure that the bag-dorms have actually completed testing yet.


----------



## George K

Stupid newbie question: what, exactly, is involved in testing?


----------



## MrFSS

jis said:


> Yup. These 20 are full baggage cars. No bag-dorms in these.
> 
> I am not sure that the bag-dorms have actually completed testing yet.


Follow up to this, I guess when they have the dorm bags they won't be like transdorms where they can accommodate revenue passengers along with the crew.


----------



## MikefromCrete

MrFSS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. These 20 are full baggage cars. No bag-dorms in these.
> 
> I am not sure that the bag-dorms have actually completed testing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Follow up to this, I guess when they have the dorm bags they won't be like transdorms where they can accommodate revenue passengers along with the crew.
Click to expand...

It will probably depend on how many crew members there are on a given train. The LSL's dining and cafe crews may fill the car, but there would be lots of room on the Cardinal's bag-dorm.


----------



## PerRock

uhgh they still have that hideous Amtrak America logo.

peter


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Yup. These 20 are full baggage cars. No bag-dorms in these.
> 
> I am not sure that the bag-dorms have actually completed testing yet.


They definitely haven't completed testing. If you remember, the plan was to release one of each type, then test them (first round of testing), then release a second one of each time, test them (second round of testing), and then go in for main production.

The baggage cars have been released twice before, so they've had their two rounds of testing. The other three types were only released *once*. When a bag-dorm, or diner, or sleeper is released the next time, that will mark the beginning of the second round of testing for them.


----------



## FriskyFL

Just saw this on Amtrak's Facebook page, regarding the special move of the new baggage cars to Hialeah. Hopefully I can find see this as it rolls thru DFB.

http://blog.amtrak.com/2014/12/amtrakforward/


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> So why are all these units going to the Hileah shop?


It's the Viewliner maintenance center. At the very least, the spare parts are going to be stored there.
(I hope they're stored on high shelves above the flood level...)

Anyway, they're probably going there to get the Viewliner maintenance staff fully trained on these; probably some of them are trained at this point, but I doubt all of them are.



> Are they going to start rotating all the NEC baggage trains to eventually come through Miami, drop off the ancient beast and then pick up the new guy?
> 
> Are there 20 consists between the Meteor, Star, Crescent, LSL, and 66/67?


Meteor: 4Star: 4

Crescent: 4

66/67: 2

Palmetto: 2

Carolinian: 2

LSL: 3, but 2 baggage cars each (6 baggage cars)

Cardinal: 2

Capitol Limited: 3

----

29

If the extra nine cars coming out of CAF later in the week are really happening, that's 29; enough to completely remove the Heritage baggage cars from the East Coast, except for "protect" service.

In the short term, the Heritage cars will probably continue to be stationed as protect cars, with the excess sent to Chicago to cover Western/Midwestern trains. As lightly used protect cars they can probably struggle along a little longer than if they're in regular service, so I'd expect Amtrak to prioritize getting the Viewliners into the regular service slots *first* and worry about replacing the protect cars later.

---

It's anyone's guess what happens when more come out after the first 29. Baggage cars are used on some California and midwestern corridor trains, but those are scheduled to be replaced by the new bilevels, so I doubt Amtrak would assign the Viewliner baggage cars there, even temporarily -- why bother to train the corridor-only crews to deal with them? The western long-distance trains use 4+5+6+6+4= 25 cars.

With 54 cars regularly in use apart from midwestern/California corridor services, and a total of 70 ordered (plus 10 bag-dorms), it seems like a lot even after accounting for shop counts and protect cars. Maybe the excess will all go to shop count and protect cars. But it's tempting to suggest that additional trains will get baggage cars. Unfortunately, due to border craziness, I doubt any of the border-crossing trains will get them, and they *are* the most obvious candidates which need them (Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Cascades to Vancouver, Vermonter-which-will-go-to-Montreal-soon). Maybe the Pennsylvanian will get baggage cars, which would help.


----------



## fairviewroad

neroden said:


> Cascades to Vancouver,


The Cascades already offer checked baggage service. The Talgo equipment has a baggage car in each train set. So, no need for

new baggage cars there. It also means that crossing the border is not an excuse for not offering baggage service (though the Maple

Leaf is in its own category, as its a jointly operated train).


----------



## jis

Cascades are Talgos. They could not use Viewliners anyway. They already have baggage service, even to Vancouver BC. I have actually used it. Remember that C&I for the Cascades are at Vancouver Pacific Central station (effectively) even though US CBP insists on collecting the Customs form at Blaine WA.

See: http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/76/826/Amtrak-Cascades-Schedule-101614.pdf

I doubt that Adirondack will get any baggage car until the C&I moves from Rouses Point/Lacolle to Montreal Central. I don't think Maple Leaf will ever get one.


----------



## lo2e

neroden said:


> Maybe the Pennsylvanian will get baggage cars, which would help.



Kind of a newb question: Why would putting a baggage car on a line without checked baggage service be helpful?

Edit to add: Or are you hoping that putting a baggage car on there would help establish baggage service?

Edit again: First YouTube video posted!


----------



## jis

lo2e said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the Pennsylvanian will get baggage cars, which would help.
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of a newb question: Why would putting a baggage car on a line without checked baggage service be helpful?
> 
> Edit to add: Or are you hoping that putting a baggage car on there would help establish baggage service?
Click to expand...

At present due to shortage of Baggage Cars it is impossible to provide checked baggage service on some trains, like the Pennsylvanian. Of course the only reason you'd add a baggage car is to provide checked baggage service. There used to be checked baggage service on this route and that was discontinued when the scarcity of baggage cars made it impossible.
Looks like there is indeed a second move on Friday out of CAF, since by my reckoning, an engine and an Amfleet was left behind at CAF today.


----------



## VentureForth

jis (and others) - you could take the Meteor and be two hours ahead of the special train. Disembark somewhere where 2 hours later it will be the "golden hour" or at lease sunshine overhead with a good view from the West. Anywhere between Winter Park and Winter Haven should work nice. Of course, you better have an overnight plan.


----------



## jis

Kissimmee is about one hour drive from my place straight down 192. If I go, that is where I will go. I have to drive a bit over an hour to get on 97 anyway, and then after I take 92 back I still have to drive over an hour back home. So no point in doing that. That points run will be done the following day on 91/98 for lunch in Kissimmee instead.  Over an hour drive to Orlando back too. 

Kissimmee is actually the Amtrak station that is closest to me, until of course Amtrak starts serving the FEC route. If and when they do it. Melbourne will become the closest station, about 4 miles away.

The other good thing about driving is no need for overnight plan.


----------



## fairviewroad

lo2e said:


> Kind of a newb question: Why would putting a baggage car on a line without checked baggage service be helpful?
> 
> Edit to add: Or are you hoping that putting a baggage car on there would help establish baggage service?


In the case of the Pennsylvanian, four of the stations along the route already have checked baggage service for other trains. This includes

NYP, NWK, PHL and PIT. So if there was a baggage car, Amtrak could easily offer check bags from the 3 big NEC stations to PIT. [strictly

speaking, you are already be able to check a bag from those stations to PIT, but it must travel via DC.]

My guess is if they ever added checked bags on the Pennsylvania, you'd limit it to the aforementioned stations plus Harrisburg, Altoona

and Johnstown.

By the way, how long do you think it will be until a video of the baggage train special move will show up on one of those truther "FEMA

Death Trains" websites???  ^_^


----------



## jis

Lancaster might get it too, since it had it in the past AFAIR. And it is a staffed station.


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

So its safe to assume all of the new veiwliners will dead head to Hialeah where they will be inspected and accepted. Then the process will be to send heritage cars on their last revenue runs to Florida where they will be stored and a new veiwliner will take their place in the consist.

I just wonder why they aren't sent to Sunnyside to replace 20 heritage cars all at once.

Also why are they sending the heritage cars to Hialeah for storage rather than Bear or Beech Grove which appear to have much more space than Hialeah on google maps.


----------



## PRR 60

Of course, PennDOT would have to accept the extra cost to the state for adding a baggage car to the consist. Since the Pennsylvanian was thrown over the wall to the state, what happens with the train is now the state's call.


----------



## printman2000

(sorry, missed that this was already posted)


----------



## jis

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> So its safe to assume all of the new veiwliners will dead head to Hialeah where they will be inspected and accepted. Then the process will be to send heritage cars on their last revenue runs to Florida where they will be stored and a new veiwliner will take their place in the consist.
> 
> I just wonder why they aren't sent to Sunnyside to replace 20 heritage cars all at once.
> 
> Also why are they sending the heritage cars to Hialeah for storage rather than Bear or Beech Grove which appear to have much more space than Hialeah on google maps.


Are they sending the Heritage Baggage cars to Hialeah for storage? I did not know that.
Unless I see some documentary evidence of that, I have difficulty believing that. Does not make much logistical sense.


----------



## fairviewroad

jis said:


> Lancaster might get it too, since it had it in the past AFAIR. And it is a staffed station.


LNC lost its baggage service many decades ago. Even as far back as 1979, the Broadway Limited's timetable noted

that checked baggage was not available in Lancaster. (It was offered in 1976...I didn't do an exhaustive search to find

when it was specifically discontinued).

And I'm not sure it would be easy to re-establish without some expensive upgrades. The current elevators to the platforms

are not large enough to handle luggage carts.** I don't think those old decrepit freight elevators there were ever repaired.

**Actually, they might be large enough to handle Redcap-style luggage carts...I was thinking of the larger luggage carts

that you often see for LD trains. Of course, there are no Redcaps in LNC. Anyhow, if Amtrak really wanted to offer checked

bags in LNC, they could. But I'd imagine they wouldn't want to extend the dwell time on the busy Keystone corridor. From HAR

west, there's not as much need for a quickie station stop.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> So its safe to assume all of the new veiwliners will dead head to Hialeah where they will be inspected and accepted. Then the process will be to send heritage cars on their last revenue runs to Florida where they will be stored and a new veiwliner will take their place in the consist.
> 
> I just wonder why they aren't sent to Sunnyside to replace 20 heritage cars all at once.
> 
> Also why are they sending the heritage cars to Hialeah for storage rather than Bear or Beech Grove which appear to have much more space than Hialeah on google maps.


Hialeah is the base for the Viewliner I cars, so the employees there would have more experience in making sure everything is OK with the new cars. Nobody's said anything about storing the Heritage baggage cars there, unless Amtrak has lined up a scrapping contractor down there. I would assume the old cars will end up at Beech Grove for disposition.


----------



## jis

ESPA now reconfirms that there will be more cars released by CAF on Friday. There will be a second special move to Albany on Friday. What will happen after that has not been mentioned by anyone so far.


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why are all these units going to the Hileah shop?
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Viewliner maintenance center. At the very least, the spare parts are going to be stored there.
> (I hope they're stored on high shelves above the flood level...)
> 
> Anyway, they're probably going there to get the Viewliner maintenance staff fully trained on these; probably some of them are trained at this point, but I doubt all of them are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they going to start rotating all the NEC baggage trains to eventually come through Miami, drop off the ancient beast and then pick up the new guy?
> 
> Are there 20 consists between the Meteor, Star, Crescent, LSL, and 66/67?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Meteor: 4Star: 4
> 
> Crescent: 4
> 
> 66/67: 2
> 
> Palmetto: 2
> 
> Carolinian: 2
> 
> LSL: 3, but 2 baggage cars each (6 baggage cars)
> 
> Cardinal: 2
> 
> Capitol Limited: 3
> 
> ----
> 
> 29
> 
> If the extra nine cars coming out of CAF later in the week are really happening, that's 29; enough to completely remove the Heritage baggage cars from the East Coast, except for "protect" service.
> 
> In the short term, the Heritage cars will probably continue to be stationed as protect cars, with the excess sent to Chicago to cover Western/Midwestern trains. As lightly used protect cars they can probably struggle along a little longer than if they're in regular service, so I'd expect Amtrak to prioritize getting the Viewliners into the regular service slots *first* and worry about replacing the protect cars later.
> 
> ---
> 
> It's anyone's guess what happens when more come out after the first 29. Baggage cars are used on some California and midwestern corridor trains, but those are scheduled to be replaced by the new bilevels, so I doubt Amtrak would assign the Viewliner baggage cars there, even temporarily -- why bother to train the corridor-only crews to deal with them? The western long-distance trains use 4+5+6+6+4= 25 cars.
> 
> With 54 cars regularly in use apart from midwestern/California corridor services, and a total of 70 ordered (plus 10 bag-dorms), it seems like a lot even after accounting for shop counts and protect cars. Maybe the excess will all go to shop count and protect cars. But it's tempting to suggest that additional trains will get baggage cars. Unfortunately, due to border craziness, I doubt any of the border-crossing trains will get them, and they *are* the most obvious candidates which need them (Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Cascades to Vancouver, Vermonter-which-will-go-to-Montreal-soon). Maybe the Pennsylvanian will get baggage cars, which would help.
Click to expand...

No Midwestern corridor trains have baggage cars. They Hiawathas use "cabbage" cars. Cascade trains have their own Talgo baggage cars. Adriondack and a revived Montrealer could use baggage when the new customs station is installed at Montreal's Central Station.


----------



## afigg

MikefromCrete said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> 
> So its safe to assume all of the new veiwliners will dead head to Hialeah where they will be inspected and accepted. Then the process will be to send heritage cars on their last revenue runs to Florida where they will be stored and a new veiwliner will take their place in the consist.
> 
> I just wonder why they aren't sent to Sunnyside to replace 20 heritage cars all at once.
> 
> Also why are they sending the heritage cars to Hialeah for storage rather than Bear or Beech Grove which appear to have much more space than Hialeah on google maps.
> 
> 
> 
> Hialeah is the base for the Viewliner I cars, so the employees there would have more experience in making sure everything is OK with the new cars. Nobody's said anything about storing the Heritage baggage cars there, unless Amtrak has lined up a scrapping contractor down there. I would assume the old cars will end up at Beech Grove for disposition.
Click to expand...

Have to be careful that someone's speculation does not become someone's else fact. It doesn't make sense for the Heritage baggage cars to end up at Hialeah. The new cars as they get inspected and certified could be sent northward one at a time in revenue service on the Silvers with the Heritage baggage car stuck on the end or the new cars on the end of the Silver consist.
I doubt that Amtrak will scrap the Heritage baggage cars that quickly. Better to wait until the new Viewliners have been in service for a while to protect against unexpected design problems showing up. The fleet plan as of several years ago listed 25 heritage baggage cars to be kept on the service list, presumably in long term storage.


----------



## jis

fairviewroad said:


> But I'd imagine they wouldn't want to extend the dwell time on the busy Keystone corridor. From HAR
> 
> west, there's not as much need for a quickie station stop.


Keystone Corridor isn't that busy at Lancaster for a few extra minutes of dwell time to really matter.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> ESPA now reconfirms that there will be more cars released by CAF on Friday. There will be a second special move to Albany on Friday. What will happen after that has not been mentioned by anyone so far.


There is a post on trainorders that lists the baggage car numbers on the special train. If the list is accurate, the highest number in this batch of 18 is 61024 with gaps in the sequence. So the production is up to at least 25 baggage cars. If Hialeah gets through the inspection and acceptance process at a rate of a couple cars a week, the Heritage baggage cars are going to fade from revenue service pretty quickly.
Time is short to get photos of the most decrepit or banged up dirty Heritage baggage cars still in service!


----------



## afigg

lo2e said:


> Edit again: First YouTube video posted!


There should be a caption for photos and videos of the special train. How about
"Yes, I know there are 18 baggage cars on the train, but it is still $20 for the third checked bag!"


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

afigg said:


> If Hialeah gets through the inspection and acceptance process at a rate of a couple cars a week, the Heritage baggage cars are going to fade from revenue service pretty quickly.
> 
> Time is short to get photos of the most decrepit or banged up dirty Heritage baggage cars still in service!


I would think Hialeah could handle more than two a week. Surely the cars have passed a full inspection before going down to Florida. If not it will be a headache to send one back to CAF from there.
I assume just a final check, similar to what all cars go through before a revenue departure and they'll be good to go.


----------



## neroden

MikefromCrete said:


> No Midwestern corridor trains have baggage cars.


Huh. Looks like the baggage cars have been dropped on all of them. I am sure some of them used to.


----------



## me_little_me

George K said:


> Stupid newbie question: what, exactly, is involved in testing?


First and foremost, they add a bathroom so they can find out what it is like when it is used and the car attendant doesn't clean it.

Second, they fill it with passengers to try out the new "high profit" service to satisfy congressional critics.

Third, they try it in revenue service on the silvers using it to replace the diner by filling it with cheap tables and chairs with a single refrigerator holding frozen TV dinners and a microwave for passengers to cook the frozen meals themselves. This is part of Amtrak's new simplified menu to make dining service a profit center instead of a loss leader.

Fourth they test the new security procedures. Passengers board the baggage car instead of their assigned car. Passengers then go through TSA security on board, store their own luggage then proceed to their assigned car or room. If all the passenger's luggage is carry-on, passengers disembark from their car. If not, they must return to the baggage car and pick up their luggage before departing the train. Note that this allows the train to be quickly boarded yet have full security. Amtrak will also be testing out the procedure if passengers cannot find their luggage and disembark before the train leaves their destination. Amtrak will be testing both simply pushing those passengers off the moving train and letting them stand there until the next stop.

Lastly, they test the the baggage cars and see if they work as well as aircraft baggage compartments at damaging passenger luggage.

I was told this by Joe himself. So, OK, it wasn't Boardman but some guy at the bar I was drinking with.


----------



## George K

me_little_me said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stupid newbie question: what, exactly, is involved in testing?
> 
> 
> 
> First and foremost, they add a bathroom so they can find out what it is like when it is used and the car attendant doesn't clean it.
> 
> (snip)
> 
> Lastly, they test the the baggage cars and see if they work as well as aircraft baggage compartments at damaging passenger luggage.
> 
> I was told this by Joe himself. So, OK, it wasn't Boardman but some guy at the bar I was drinking with.
Click to expand...



Well, that explains why it takes so long, I guess.


----------



## Eric S

neroden said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> No Midwestern corridor trains have baggage cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh. Looks like the baggage cars have been dropped on all of them. I am sure some of them used to.
Click to expand...

I'd have to look through old timetables to be sure, but I think you're right - I'm pretty sure that at least some Michigan trains used to offer checked baggage service.


----------



## Paulus

neroden said:


> It's anyone's guess what happens when more come out after the first 29. Baggage cars are used on some California and midwestern corridor trains, but those are scheduled to be replaced by the new bilevels, so I doubt Amtrak would assign the Viewliner baggage cars there, even temporarily -- why bother to train the corridor-only crews to deal with them? The western long-distance trains use 4+5+6+6+4= 25 cars.


Not on the California routes to my knowledge. Cabbages for all of ours (including the NPCUs on the single level sets).


----------



## Fan Railer

First videos of the View II mega move are up on youtube. Credits to the videographer:


----------



## VentureForth

Is the Amfleet coach on the back just to let it keep "P" speeds?


----------



## jis

No. It is for the staff traveling with the train. This train has no real need to travel at P speed anyway, though it most likely might.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Any idea what number the trains will have and if they will be trackable?


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

VentureForth said:


> Is the Amfleet coach on the back just to let it keep "P" speeds?


I believe it was actually a cafe car.

Could be for the conductor and possibly an AC since they usually work from the cafe cars.


----------



## VentureForth

That's a good point. I couldn't really see in the videos. BTW, anyone know where the train is right now? It isn't being followed on the Amtrak tracker...

The Silver Meteor it is supposed to be following is running 1:49 late. Wonder if this delay is being translated to the Special as well? I may get to see it after all!


----------



## chrsjrcj

The train departs Philly tonight.


----------



## jis

Right now at 0930 EST 1430 Zulu of 18th Dec, it is in Philadelphia Race St. Yard.

It will depart PHL about 2 hours behind 97(18).

Venture you may be one day off. The 97 that it will follow has not left New York yet.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> Any idea what number the trains will have and if they will be trackable?


PHL - MIA the train number is 855.
The consist is reported on TO to be:



> 822, 42, 61001, 61000, 61002, 61006, 61004, 61007, 61008, 61010, 61012, 61013, 61014, 61017, 61022, 61011, 61015, 61018, 61019, 61021, 61023, 61024, 10021 (Pacific Cape), 10001 (Beech Grove)


No Cafe car. It has been replaced by an Office Sleeper (Pacific Cape) and Beech Grove.


----------



## VentureForth

Happy to be off by a day! Tomorrow is a way better watching day.


----------



## jis

Here's something you can do! Look up train 855 on Amtrak Train Status at amtrak.com. Look for times only at Division/Crew Change points. Say for example, try JAX, ORL or MIA tomorrow!

Looks like 855 is scheduled to run on 97's marker. As for what will actually happen is anyone's guess. but presumably you will be able to see its actual status as it trundles down the Atlantic Coast!


----------



## Big Iron

Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?


----------



## Amfleeter

Big Iron said:


> Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?


Unless something's changed with P42 gearing, no. It'll top out at 90 most likely - unless P42s are allowed 110 MPH on the Corridor. Does anyone know what the P42 on-corr top speed is?


----------



## Acela150

Amfleeter said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something's changed with P42 gearing, no. It'll top out at 90 most likely - unless P42s are allowed 110 MPH on the Corridor. Does anyone know what the P42 on-corr top speed is?
Click to expand...

110.


----------



## jis

Amfleeter said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something's changed with P42 gearing, no. It'll top out at 90 most likely - unless P42s are allowed 110 MPH on the Corridor. Does anyone know what the P42 on-corr top speed is?
Click to expand...

P42s are good for 110mph. They do at least 100 between Schenectady and Hoffmans with the LSL sometimes.


----------



## ILoveTransit

BEWARE: Get your cameras ready!!!! The official special train schedule is now provided from my friend at Amtrak:

9:30P - Wash DC
9:50P - Alexandria, VA
11:40P - Richmond, VA
12:24A - Petersburg, VA
2:56A - Rocky Mount, NC
4:34A - Fayetteville, NC
6:20A - Florence, SC
7:05A - Kingstree, SC
8:06A - Charleston, SC
8:56A - Yemassee, SC
9:44A - Savannah, GA
10:23A - Jacksonville, FL
12:54P - Palakta, FL
1:44P - Deland, FL
2:27 - Winter Park, FL
2:55P - Orlando, FL
3:32P - Kissimmee, FL
4:24 - Winter Haven, FL
5:05P - Sebring, FL
6:54P - West Palm Beach, FL
7:23P - Delray Beach, FL
7:39P - Deerfield Beach, FL
8:02P - Fort Lauderdale, FL
8:18P - Hollywood, FL
8:55P - Miami, FL


----------



## jis

That makes more sense than the status thing says. Maybe they'll fix it to match reality.


----------



## Big Iron

jis said:


> Amfleeter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something's changed with P42 gearing, no. It'll top out at 90 most likely - unless P42s are allowed 110 MPH on the Corridor. Does anyone know what the P42 on-corr top speed is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P42s are good for 110mph. They do at least 100 between Schenectady and Hoffmans with the LSL sometimes.
Click to expand...

I was assuming that an electric motor would have been used on the NEC.


----------



## Big Iron

ILoveTransit said:


> BEWARE: Get your cameras ready!!!! The official special train schedule is now provided from my friend at Amtrak:
> 
> 9:30P - Wash DC
> 
> 9:50P - Alexandria, VA
> 
> 11:40P - Richmond, VA
> 
> 12:24A - Petersburg, VA
> 
> 2:56A - Rocky Mount, NC
> 
> 4:34A - Fayetteville, NC
> 
> 6:20A - Florence, SC
> 
> 7:05A - Kingstree, SC
> 
> 8:06A - Charleston, SC
> 
> 8:56A - Yemassee, SC
> 
> 9:44A - Savannah, GA
> 
> 10:23A - Jacksonville, FL
> 
> 12:54P - Palakta, FL
> 
> 1:44P - Deland, FL
> 
> 2:27 - Winter Park, FL
> 
> 2:55P - Orlando, FL
> 
> 3:32P - Kissimmee, FL
> 
> 4:24 - Winter Haven, FL
> 
> 5:05P - Sebring, FL
> 
> 6:54P - West Palm Beach, FL
> 
> 7:23P - Delray Beach, FL
> 
> 7:39P - Deerfield Beach, FL
> 
> 8:02P - Fort Lauderdale, FL
> 
> 8:18P - Hollywood, FL
> 
> 8:55P - Miami, FL


Good Stuff! Thanks for posting. I work in Petersburg but not at 12:42 in the AM.


----------



## MattW

jis said:


> Amfleeter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something's changed with P42 gearing, no. It'll top out at 90 most likely - unless P42s are allowed 110 MPH on the Corridor. Does anyone know what the P42 on-corr top speed is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P42s are good for 110mph. They do at least 100 between Schenectady and Hoffmans with the LSL sometimes.
Click to expand...

Good for 110mph or not, can the pair of P42s even get that much train up to 110mph?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

MattW said:


> Good for 110mph or not, can the pair of P42s even get that much train up to 110mph?


Since it is an empty light train they should be able to with room to spare.


----------



## jis

They don't need to. They are supposed stay a good distance behind 97. They also don't need to get to Washington early and screw up the works.


----------



## Acela150

Big Iron said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amfleeter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something's changed with P42 gearing, no. It'll top out at 90 most likely - unless P42s are allowed 110 MPH on the Corridor. Does anyone know what the P42 on-corr top speed is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P42s are good for 110mph. They do at least 100 between Schenectady and Hoffmans with the LSL sometimes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was assuming that an electric motor would have been used on the NEC.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't make sense to do that.


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

Big Iron said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amfleeter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any chance the bag train will hit 125 mph between PHL-WAS?
> 
> 
> 
> Unless something's changed with P42 gearing, no. It'll top out at 90 most likely - unless P42s are allowed 110 MPH on the Corridor. Does anyone know what the P42 on-corr top speed is?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> P42s are good for 110mph. They do at least 100 between Schenectady and Hoffmans with the LSL sometimes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was assuming that an electric motor would have been used on the NEC.
Click to expand...

From what I've seen they ran diesel all the way through Penn around the Sunnyside loop and down to Philadelphia. 
Unless someone finds a photo or video of an electric leading...


----------



## Ryan

Nope, P42 all the way. 42 on the point through Odenton just a few minutes ago. Crappy video shortly.


----------



## MattW

I'm somewhat impressed they ran diesel through Penn Station. I know the ban on diesels isn't absolute as some believe, but I'm not sure now if I would want to be down there, or not want to be down there when it ran through!


----------



## Ryan

The protect engine in NYP went out and grabbed it and then got it through the tunnel.

As promised, crappy video:


----------



## NE933

That may be one of Amtrak's best single level long distance train to have run in nearly two decades: long, full of new equipment, and on time.


----------



## Train2104

Here's a video I found of it passing through NYP. Doesn't show the locos, but the uploader says they used diesels.


----------



## afigg

Train2104 said:


> Here's a video I found of it passing through NYP. Doesn't show the locos, but the uploader says they used diesels.


You beat me to posting the link. Nice close-up view with the luggage racks visible through the windows in the doors.

As for the P-42 pulling the train through NYP and to PHL, the videos getting posted of the train between PHL and NYP show the locomotives on front. So there were no engine swaps for the move from NY state to PHL.


----------



## mattie

Here's the viewliner II special at Long Bridge park in Arlington Va. It had locomotives 822 and 42. It also had Pacific Cape and Beach Grove cars at the end. These cars probably indicate that VIPs are on board.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

As this train works its way south, don't you know the casual observer is going to be mystified and wonder what it is all about!


----------



## Caesar La Rock

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]I might try to catch the train passing by Winter Park. Can't promise anyone anything though. [/SIZE]


----------



## VentureForth

gaspeamtrak said:


> So what!? Thank you for sharing!


There's always one...
If I'm not busy, I'll be in Savannah watching and waiting


----------



## Guest

I know, kind of a dumb question, but these are all full baggage cars, no? None are the half baggage and half dormer cars. I assume the half and half would have at least some of the thin upper windows characteristic of the old Viewliners.

The reason I ask, is that I thought that the half and half would be destined for existing Viewliner consists/routes (like those to/from MIA, WAS, and NYP), to allow crew/staff to move out of the revenue Viewliners. The Superliners would get the full baggage since they already have their transdormers.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Guest said:


> I know, kind of a dumb question, but these are all full baggage cars, no? None are the half baggage and half dormer cars. I assume the half and half would have at least some of the thin upper windows characteristic of the old Viewliners.
> 
> The reason I ask, is that I thought that the half and half would be destined for existing Viewliner consists/routes (like those to/from MIA, WAS, and NYP), to allow crew/staff to move out of the revenue Viewliners. The Superliners would get the full baggage since they already have their transdormers.


Bag dorms have not yet done initial testing. These are baggage only going to Hialeah for final inspection and release to service.

Has anyone in Georgia seen the special yet???


----------



## pennyk

Scott Orlando said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know, kind of a dumb question, but these are all full baggage cars, no? None are the half baggage and half dormer cars. I assume the half and half would have at least some of the thin upper windows characteristic of the old Viewliners.
> 
> The reason I ask, is that I thought that the half and half would be destined for existing Viewliner consists/routes (like those to/from MIA, WAS, and NYP), to allow crew/staff to move out of the revenue Viewliners. The Superliners would get the full baggage since they already have their transdormers.
> 
> 
> 
> Bag dorms have not yet done initial testing. These are baggage only going to Hialeah for final inspection and release to service.
> 
> Has anyone in Georgia seen the special yet???
Click to expand...

Scott, are you planning to go to the ORL station? I have read one post that says 855 will be 2 hours behind 97 (2:55) and the Trains magazine article says around 1pm. If it is at 1pm, the station will be packed with 97 and 98 passengers. Amtrak.com status states that 855 is due in ORL at 1:07.


----------



## RampWidget

Just went through SAV at 0930.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Thanks for the info Penny. I will be there!

Thanks for the update Ramp!

If it just went through Savannah at 930 and 97 is in Jax then it would indeed be closer to 2 hours. It would have been nice to get a shot of 97 or 98 meeting 855.


----------



## VentureForth

I missed it in Savannah by 5. Ramp - was that you I talked to?

In Richmond Hill, but no evidence that is is coming or gone.

Looks like I missed it here, too. Sad.

Looks like it's about 20 min ahead of schedule.


----------



## pennyk

Scott Orlando said:


> Thanks for the info Penny. I will be there!
> 
> Thanks for the update Ramp!
> 
> If it just went through Savannah at 930 and 97 is in Jax then it would indeed be closer to 2 hours. It would have been nice to get a shot of 97 or 98 meeting 855.


Unless something comes up, I will go to the ORL station around 2pm (or earlier or later depending on updates). I am 5'2" and I likely will be wearing yoga pants, eyeglasses, a ponytail and funny shoes.


----------



## jis

I figure it is a safe bet that it will take at least 6 hours to KIS from SAV. So just to be absolutely on the safe side I will get to KIS by 2:30 pm and hang out there.


----------



## fairviewroad

RyanS said:


> As promised, crappy video:


No, that wasn't crappy at all. It was cool to see it at speed along the NEC, even though it was at night (no fault of yours).

Thanks to everyone who's posted videos!


----------



## pennyk

I am at ORL station now. Agents seem to think it will be coming through shortly after 98 leaves here, depending on SunRail, dispatch, etc


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Get your phone set up for video so you can take a better video than your twin did last night.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Penny, I have heard there was a mechanical issue south of Jax and there will be a stop at Sanford to look into it further. The train is still north of Palatka.


----------



## Slasharoo

RampWidget said:


> Just went through SAV at 0930.


OK, just a quick housekeeping question. How can RampWidget post that the train went through SAV at 9:30 in a post at 8:43...Tardis?


----------



## pennyk

Drat. I likely will leave.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Going to SFB for a live report....

Actually SFA. SFB is the airport.


----------



## neroden

According to other websites, the second special, with 8 cars is supposed to be coming out of Elmira today. (So total of 28 going into service.)

In other news, the rumor is that *all 130 cars* will be delivered in 2015.

I think it's time to pressure Amtrak to exercise part of the option ASAP, keep the production line going, and get more Viewliner sleepers for 2016.

They can be used and profitable, no doubt about it; at the least, there's a daily Cardinal, a sleeper on 66/67, and the Pennsy/Cap through cars, but there's probably going to be good reason in the next few years to lengthen some of the other trains, and possibly run the Palmetto back to Florida.

Given that this is pretty much a one-time opportunity, Amtrak should also really get about 4 more dining cars for future expansion (enough to allow for a daily Cardinal and Silver Palm and single-level Broadway/Capitol Limited, with shop count, or to allow for future wrecks). That's about $10 million and should be considered an insurance policy, and well worth it at the price. It's never going to make sense to order 4 dining cars by themselves, and I can't think of a scenario where Amtrak will need more than 4 additional single-level dining cars (unless there are a whole lot of wrecks), so they should be gotten now.

I'm not sure how to start pushing for this.


----------



## jis

I am at KIS and can hang out here the rest of the day. Anyway keep me posted with anything you learn

Neorden let us start putting together a concrete short write up that we can either send directly to Boardman, possibly via Brian G. Also maybe we can get NARP on board. Perhaps Anderson and Charlie can work that angle.

But first a few of us need to have something concrete that we are all comfortable standing behind and pushing.


----------



## fairviewroad

Slasharoo said:


> RampWidget said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just went through SAV at 0930.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, just a quick housekeeping question. How can RampWidget post that the train went through SAV at 9:30 in a post at 8:43...Tardis?
Click to expand...

Your computer time-stamps posts according to your local time zone.You are probably in the Central Time. SAV is in Eastern Time.


----------



## Slasharoo

Thanks, I knew it was my own brain getting in the way.


----------



## jis

Second delivery train with 8 Baggage Cars left Elmira at 11:20 am today (Friday 19 Dec '14)


----------



## pennyk

Scott Orlando said:


> Going to SFB for a live report....
> 
> Actually SFA. SFB is the airport.


Please provide report when you can.


----------



## VentureForth

Slasharoo said:


> RampWidget said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just went through SAV at 0930.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, just a quick housekeeping question. How can RampWidget post that the train went through SAV at 9:30 in a post at 8:43...Tardis?
Click to expand...

 Check the time zone on your profile settings. It was posted at 9:43 EST.


----------



## Scott Orlando

pennyk said:


> Scott Orlando said:
> 
> 
> 
> Going to SFB for a live report....
> 
> Actually SFA. SFB is the airport.
> 
> 
> 
> Please provide report when you can.
Click to expand...

98 just passed north after issues in Altamonte Springs. Sunrail going south. But no special yet.....


----------



## Scott Orlando

Just passed through Sanford. The train did not stop. My view was blocked by departing AT. $%^&^*&**&


----------



## pennyk

Thanks. I am walking to crossing at highland and urban trail


----------



## pennyk

Just got to crossing and heard a train coming. I was all set to video but it was SunRail.


----------



## neroden

Well, I'm pleased to see that my late-January trip will most likely have some new baggage cars on it. Probably still won't see any new dining cars on my January *or* April trips, though.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Can you imagine the foam level when the diners and sleepers head down to Miami considering the foam for the bag cars. :giggle:

Yes, I did consider going out last night to see the baggage cars go by, but when I got home to feed the kitties, I had no inclination to go back out. It was dark & cold. Guess I'm not a foamer (never thought I was) and not much of a railfan.


----------



## pennyk

Got it. It should be in ORL in about 7 minutes.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Yay Penny!


----------



## Bob Dylan

You Florida folks get to have all the fun in the Winter!!

Keep the videos and pics coming, and Betty is right, when the other new Cars start coming out of hiding the foam will Flood the Tracks!! LOL

Time for a new contest Ryan????


----------



## Scott Orlando

Somehow made it from SFA to ORL in Friday traffic for this....







I got to catch it twice! WooHoo!


----------



## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> Neroden let us start putting together a concrete short write up
> 
> that we can either send directly to Boardman, possibly via Brian G.
> 
> Also maybe we can get NARP on board. Perhaps Anderson and
> 
> Charlie can work that angle.
> 
> But first a few of us need to have something concrete that we are all
> 
> comfortable standing behind and pushing.


I was impressed by the spreadsheet analysis of potential 

sleeper revenue that you guys did a couple of weeks back.

Boardman doesn't need to see the positive case, but the 

Congresscritters and their staffers do.

And reporters, also known as stenographers, need easily 

available material for their articles.

Try to get it published on their site by NARP, at the least.

(NARP has online an argument in favor of the sleepers

from 4 or 5 years ago, so they surely have interest and

perhaps expertise to lend.)

If it looks as good as we think it could, the case could also

be made in an Op Ed (and then be posted at NARP online.) 

NARP's PR person might help with placing an Op Ed.

Submit it to the New York Times and the Wash Post first, 

but they get a zillion submissions for limited space. So as 

soon as you get their rejection slip, re-submit to papers in 

Philly, Baltimore, Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte, on down 

the line to Miami. 

And try the online publications. The Huffington Post and 

others in cyberspace have almost unlimited room to run 

outside-written or opinion pieces.

(If you have any contacts inside Amtrak, or any recently 

retired from there, see if you can get your case vetted 

by them on a background basis.)

If nobody will publish a long article, slash it to four or five 

paragraphs and submit it as Letters to the Editor at the 

Times and Wash Post. If NARP will publish a longer,

fact-filled version, you can link to that in your letter.

Of course, you can CC: a report to Boardman, and

Amtrak's Board, certainly the Chair, Anthony Coscia. 

Move fast while the new bag cars make it newsy.

Good luck.


----------



## VentureForth

I guess I'm just a bit confused why they are releasing 26 all at once. Were they all built in parallel? Why not build, test, add to consist as they were completed? It seems like a lot of work to dump on those guys in Hialeah at once.

So what's coming out next (after the 8 more baggage)? How many at a time?


----------



## pennyk

I will try to post my video.

IMG_0336.MOV


----------



## pennyk

Great photo Scott, and thanks for the heads up so I could get to the crossing in time.

Also, great feat getting to ORL in Friday I-4 traffic.


----------



## fixj

I counted 20 new Bags, so I guess they added the two test cars to the consist. Great vid!


----------



## jis

Just passed by here at KIS at 5:30pm. Passed by real slow. Got a three minute video.


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> Just passed by here at KIS at 5:30pm. Passed by real slow. Got a three minute video.


Was it worth waiting for over 3 1/2 hours in Kissimmee?


----------



## Railroad Bill

pennyk said:


> I will try to post my video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_0336.MOV


Nice video Penny. It looks so warm down there


----------



## Railroad Bill

Railroad Bill said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will try to post my video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_0336.MOV
> 
> 
> 
> Nice video Penny. It looks so warm down there  Our palm trees have a little snow on them..
Click to expand...


----------



## dlagrua

Positive news "a long time a coming". I appreciate the pics and especially Penny K's video. From the appearance of these baggage cars I do not see any evidence of crew quarters. I was under the impression that the new cars would contain some crew quarters that would free up additional sleeper space. Am I wrong about this?

We have a Cardinal trip booked for Aug. 15. I am hoping that the Viewliner II sleepers will be added before that time. We have found that the sleepers on the New York City terminus trains show hard use and the new sleepers would give the train a refreshing new look and maybe have a new diner to enjoy meals in as well!!!!! My guess is that the diners will be coming next as many of them are over 50 years old.


----------



## Ryan

Some of the new cars are combined baggage dorms. Those are coming next, then the diners.


----------



## pennyk

Railroad Bill said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will try to post my video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_0336.MOV
> 
> 
> 
> Nice video Penny. It looks so warm down there
Click to expand...

Thanks Bill. It was my very first video on my new phone. It was about 73 and sunny. Pretty much perfect.  I hope you get lucky with the weather when you come down in January. (Dave is still complaining about the cold front when he came down in January a few years back - and is blaming me.)


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Here is my video that I took today. Man, two hour delay. Thankfully, Amtrak and SunRail trains kept me busy today. I could of also thrown in a bit of bus fanning into the mix too, but didn't. I heard there was engine trouble that caused the delay at Sanford.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nice video Penny, looks like you've joined the photo pros on AU!

And Dave has a lot of nerve complaining about Cold Weather in Florida when he chooses to stay up North and not move to Florida like several of our smart AUers! ( of course you're a native but in your case you moved NORTH from Miami! LOL)


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

dlagrua said:


> Positive news "a long time a coming". I appreciate the pics and especially Penny K's video. From the appearance of these baggage cars I do not see any evidence of crew quarters. I was under the impression that the new cars would contain some crew quarters that would free up additional sleeper space. Am I wrong about this?


There will be some Bag-Dorms coming; they will be much like the traditional Combine Car of the past where the car is half Bag and half Crew Quarters.


----------



## MontanaJim

when are new diners and sleepers expected to be put into revenue service?


----------



## Ryan

Much later.


----------



## fixj

CJ, best video yet. Many Thanks


----------



## PaulM

VentureForth said:


> I guess I'm just a bit confused why they are releasing 26 all at once. Were they all built in parallel? Why not build, test, add to consist as they were completed?


Years ago it was called job shop or job lot manufacturing. Bring in a batch of widgets, process them, and send the batch on its way.

Seriously, I agree with you. I would have expected an assembly line where they come off the line one at a time, at least after article 1 or 2. Wasn't that how it worked with the electric engines manufactured in Sacramento. I can see batching them somewhat for delivery since the plant isn't on an Amtrak line, but not 20.


----------



## Agent

Found another video. This was filmed at the "Dania TriRail Station."

http://youtu.be/G5EuyQNMMEE


----------



## dlagrua

MontanaJim said:


> when are new diners and sleepers expected to be put into revenue service?


The deployment of Viewliner II's has been a moving target and the schedule has been adjusted "as you go". Just a wild guess but I expect mid to late 2015 before we see the diners and sleepers coming on later in the year extending into 2016. Anyone have any "reliable" data to share.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

fixj said:


> CJ, best video yet. Many Thanks


Thank you.


----------



## Blackwolf

Found a video of the next 9 VLII bags heading south, this time from the platform of Croton-Harmon station. P42 #717 is on point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y79kaTjb4DM


----------



## Ryan

#717 is a P32AC Dual Mode.


----------



## Blackwolf

RyanS said:


> #717 is a P32AC Dual Mode.


I was waiting for that.


----------



## Ryan

I aim to please!


----------



## Acela150

It's weird seeing an EOT on an Amcan.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> I guess I'm just a bit confused why they are releasing 26 all at once. Were they all built in parallel? Why not build, test, add to consist as they were completed? It seems like a lot of work to dump on those guys in Hialeah at once.


I suspect that the baggage car production line has been going for a long time. Remember those photos of baggage car shells from a year ago? (Or was it two years ago?)

What happened here was that Amtrak returned with a list of *small* tweaks which had to be made. So a huge bunch of almost-complete baggage cars, which had already come off the production line, had to have the tweaks applied.

As you can imagine, this might go very very fast, so that you might go from no baggage cars ready for delivery to 20 in a week or two. I would not expect to see the next baggage cars come out in a giant lot like this.

On the other hand, the other three types also went back in for tweaks, so we might see a giant clump of dining cars released all at once at some point.


----------



## neroden

WoodyinNYC said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neroden let us start putting together a concrete short write up
> 
> that we can either send directly to Boardman, possibly via Brian G.
> 
> Also maybe we can get NARP on board. Perhaps Anderson and
> 
> Charlie can work that angle.
> 
> But first a few of us need to have something concrete that we are all
> 
> comfortable standing behind and pushing.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I'm super super busy for the next few months. Please feel free to rip off anything I've already written if it's useful though.



> I was impressed by the spreadsheet analysis of potential
> 
> sleeper revenue that you guys did a couple of weeks back.


I'm not sure how many sleepers I can make a good case for, because a lot of the input numbers are guesses with wide variance. I get really strong numbers when I base them on the numbers from the LSL, but I tend to look at the LSL for reasons of personal bias.

For a worse case, I have been doing estimates on the Cardinal's extra sleeper each month (with the usual wild variance)... and at the moment it looks like the extra sleeper is only roughly break-even, maybe less. (It's more expensive to run the attendants for a Cardinal sleeper than for an LSL sleeper, due to the longer runtime.) But it's hard to tell because we've only seen it during relatively weak months so far; one can't really tell until it's been a full year.

I know I can make a good case for more sleepers, I'm just not sure how to make a case for a specific number of sleepers.

For the dining cars, the case is very simple and the number is 5. Feel free to reuse any of this.

----

Why Amtrak Should Order 5 More Viewliner II Dining Cars

* There will probably not be another opportunity to make a large order of single-level dining cars during the 40-year lifespan of the Viewliner IIs.

* There will probably be no other companies ordering single-level FRA-compliant dining cars over this period, so future "add-on" orders are impossible.

* A small order of dining cars is never cost-effective. So this is the only opportunity to order "just a few more cars".

* Over the 40-year lifespan of the Viewliner IIs, some of the dining cars will most likely get into wrecks and be destroyed.

* There are several routes which do not currently have a single-level dining car but which might plausibly need one in the next 40 years: a daily Cardinal (3 cars); a restored Silver Palm (4); a single-level Capitol Limited (3); a restored Broadway Limited (3). There are other possibilities such as an additional frequency on the Lake Shore Limited. While most of these will not happen, it is likely that one or two of them will.

* When considering Amtrak's preferred shop count of 20%, the current total of 26 Viewliner diners can only support roughly 21 cars in active service daily. When considering desired protect cars (one at each of four terminals), this number drops even lower, to roughly 17.

* Fifteen are in use daily right now. The additional 2 are not even enough to handle even a daily Cardinal without cutting into the shop count, and it is perfectly likely that there will be more than 2 wrecks in the next 40 years.

* In order to support the potential future dining car routes and potential losses to wrecks over the next 40 years, *Amtrak should order 5 more dining cars*; this would cover two expansions, or one expansion and a number of wrecks.

* This should be considered an insurance policy, and it has "option value". For roughly $10 million dollars, Amtrak insures against the lost business due to dining car wrecks for 40 years, and has an option for 40 years to expand dining car service where commercially appropriate.

* Current dining car economics should not be counted against this. Even if the method of operation changes substantially, a car with this physical configuration will remain highly useful for the long-duration trains to New York City.

They should be purchased now while they can be purchased economically. $10 million now to avoid problems for 40 years is well worth it. Amtrak has had many problems in the past due to shortages of specific types of car; it is well worth it to prevent this preemptively.

----

That's as concise as I can make it. If someone can boil it down further, great.


----------



## William W.

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if the Cardinal is running with two sleepers again? I just checked availability for a date in January, and the number of rooms seem to have doubled since the last time I checked.


----------



## blueman271

William W. said:


> Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if the Cardinal is running with two sleepers again? I just checked availability for a date in January, and the number of rooms seem to have doubled since the last time I checked.


 The Cardinal did not have two sleepers when I rode it on December 13th.


----------



## jis

The second Viewliner II delivery train is reported to be running two hours behind 97(21)


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> The second Viewliner II delivery train is reported to be running two hours behind 97(21)


I would love updates. I have a doctor's appointment this afternoon about a half mile from the Orlando station. IF the doctor is on time, I should be done about 2 hours after 97 passes through.


----------



## jis

BTW 91(21) is coming in with same pair of diesels that powered the first delivery special.


----------



## City of Miami

blueman271 said:


> William W. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if the Cardinal is running with two sleepers again? I just checked availability for a date in January, and the number of rooms seem to have doubled since the last time I checked.
> 
> 
> 
> The Cardinal did not have two sleepers when I rode it on December 13th.
Click to expand...

The Cardinal reverted to 1 sleeper around November 1st.


----------



## jis

Amtrak 861 is the Amtrak number of the delivery train today. Don't know the corresponding CSX P9xx number. It passed Savannah at 7:51am.

BTW, what the heck does how many sleepers Cardinal is carrying to day have to do with Viewliner II production status. Isn't there a more appropriate thread among the dozens of Cardinal threads to talk about that?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

jis said:


> BTW, what the heck does how many sleepers Cardinal is carrying to day have to do with Viewliner II production status. Isn't there a more appropriate thread among the dozens of Cardinal threads to talk about that?


To be fair, the Cardinal could be getting another sleeper from the Viewliner II order, eventually. With that said, Amtrak has 29 Viewliner IIs built, unless someone corrects me on that number.


----------



## jis

THE CJ said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, what the heck does how many sleepers Cardinal is carrying to day have to do with Viewliner II production status. Isn't there a more appropriate thread among the dozens of Cardinal threads to talk about that?
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, the Cardinal could be getting another sleeper from the Viewliner II order, eventually. With that said, Amtrak has 29 Viewliner IIs built, unless someone corrects me on that number.
Click to expand...

I call BS on that justification. Using that justification current car allotments for all Amtrak LD trains could be discussed in this thread, which would be pretty absurd.
Amtrak has had 28 Viewliner IIs delivered so far, all baggage cars. There are strong rumors that there will be another delivery in January, possibly of more baggage cars.


----------



## Steve4031

Iirc there is a plan to "upgrade" viewliner 1 sleepers with the no-toilet modules. Wouldn't this cause a delay in adding extra sleepers?


----------



## jis

That plan is currently not funded. IMHO, if money were to become available it should be used to exercise the options before spending it on retrofit. It is more important to have as many functional cars as possible on hand before fiddling around with furnishing that works just fine.

Having said that, when the time comes they could do the upgrade in batches of say 5 cars out for a month. Yes that would reduce the fleet by 5 cars for a year. But that is not going to be a showstopper for continuing to have additional capacity beyond what is available today deployed at any given time.


----------



## Steve4031

Thanks jis. I was curious about that. Then some trains would be viewliner 1 trains and some viewliner 2 trains.


----------



## pennyk

Special train just passed through Orlando station. I think I got video. Will try to post when I get home


----------



## pennyk

Video of second (and shorter) "special" train passing through Orlando station 12/22/14

Special baggage train video.MOV


----------



## Ryan

Nice!


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

pennyk said:


> Video of second (and shorter) "special" train passing through Orlando station 12/22/14
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Special baggage train video.MOV


Nice video! It looks like you had quite a few interested folks on the platform with you.


----------



## Railroad Bill

OlympianHiawatha said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Video of second (and shorter) "special" train passing through Orlando station 12/22/14
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Special baggage train video.MOV
> 
> 
> 
> Nice video! It looks like you had quite a few interested folks on the platform with you.
Click to expand...

Looks like a nice day in the Big O. Amtrak and Sunshine..


----------



## Caesar La Rock

jis said:


> THE CJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, what the heck does how many sleepers Cardinal is carrying to day have to do with Viewliner II production status. Isn't there a more appropriate thread among the dozens of Cardinal threads to talk about that?
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, the Cardinal could be getting another sleeper from the Viewliner II order, eventually. With that said, Amtrak has 29 Viewliner IIs built, unless someone corrects me on that number.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I call BS on that justification. Using that justification current car allotments for all Amtrak LD trains could be discussed in this thread, which would be pretty absurd.
> Amtrak has had 28 Viewliner IIs delivered so far, all baggage cars. There are strong rumors that there will be another delivery in January, possibly of more baggage cars.
Click to expand...

Doesn't stop some from doing it anyway. Also, thanks for the correction on the Viewliner IIs. With all these baggage cars coming in and eventually going into service, the worst of the heritage baggage cars will be dispatched the to the scrapyard at Sims Metals or wherever Amtrak scraps equipment. Good thing I have plenty of pictures/videos of those old baggage cars.


----------



## jis

I believe some of the worst are already getting dispatched in the winter LD downsizing. Many of those being taken off are not returning come Spring.


----------



## The Whistler

I have not been following Amtraks deployment plans for the Viewliner II's that closely, but what seems to make sense is to retain the Viewliner I's and add the Viewliner II's. With more sleepers coming on they can refurbish the old ones while they add the new ones. The result is that Amtrak ends up with a sleeper fleet nearly double the size that in theory has the potential to double the revenue. I've heard the argument that the Viewliner I's may be at the end of their service life but one look at VIA rail illustrates well how vintage equipment can be restored and brought back to service. They still have some Pullman sleepers on their trains.


----------



## jis

Viewliner Is are not being taken out of service. All 50 remain in service. 25 Viewliner II Sleepers are being added to the single level Sleeper fleet.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

The Whistler said:


> I have not been following Amtraks deployment plans for the Viewliner II's that closely, but what seems to make sense is to retain the Viewliner I's and add the Viewliner II's. With more sleepers coming on they can refurbish the old ones while they add the new ones. The result is that Amtrak ends up with a sleeper fleet nearly double the size that in theory has the potential to double the revenue. I've heard the argument that the Viewliner I's may be at the end of their service life but one look at VIA rail illustrates well how vintage equipment can be restored and brought back to service. They still have some Pullman sleepers on their trains.


It's 50 Viewliner I sleepers currently in the fleet. It will be 25 new Viewliner II sleepers, plus 10 new bag/dorms, in effect about 5 new sleepers, making a total 60% increase. That's unless the option order is placed soon and more cars are bought.

Amtrak needs to buy MANY more Viewliners of several types, to increase revenues, expand service, and improve efficiencies, but that won't happen.

Back when the original Viewliner I order was placed, Amtrak planned to buy 100 of them. Then Congress in its wisdom pulled the plug on the needed funds. There's no reason to believe that Congress has any more wisdom now than it did back then.

Meanwhile, the 60% increase in roomettes for sale just might bring a couple of the Eastern LD trains to an operating surplus. But it won't be a doubling of sleeper capacity, alas.


----------



## afigg

The Whistler said:


> I've heard the argument that the Viewliner I's may be at the end of their service life but one look at VIA rail illustrates well how vintage equipment can be restored and brought back to service. They still have some Pullman sleepers on their trains.


Who has made the argument that the Viewliner Is may be at the end of their service life? Compared to most of Amtrak's fleet (excluding locomotives and the Acelas), the Viewliner I sleepers at 19 to 20 years old are young. The CAF order is for 25 sleeper cars, clearly to expand the fleet, not to replace the 50 Viewliner Is.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> That plan is currently not funded. IMHO, if money were to become available it should be used to exercise the options before spending it on retrofit. It is more important to have as many functional cars as possible on hand before fiddling around with furnishing that works just fine.


Amtrak has previously discussed the problem of keeping the Beech Grove employees who were doing ARRA work, after the ARRA-funded work was done.... "Feast or famine", furloughs and overtime, isn't good for morale, quality, or costs. You want to hang on to your trained employees. So if there is an upcoming otherwise-slack period at Beech Grove, when the work they would otherwise do is not available, it might make sense to start fitting the retrofits into that period, just to keep the employees active. So there's the (only) argument for prioritizing the retrofits over the options.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

HOME
NEWS
SPORTS
OPINION
BUSINESS
THINGS TO DO
O
USA TODAY
SOCIAL

SEARCH
FIREFLY
 


239
155 
3





​

18 Amtrak cars, built locally, head to Florida Bob Jamieson, [email protected] | @SGBobDecember 17, 2014





CAF-USA in Elmira Heights is building 130 new cars for Amtrak. A train hauling 18 of the 87-foot-long baggage cars left the plant Wednesday morning and passed through Elmira’s Eldridge Park on the way to Florida. (Photo: BOB JAMIESON / STAFF PHOTO)


 (Photo: BOB JAMIESON / STAFF PHOTO)MORE
Horns blared, the ground rumbled and steel wheels provided a rhythmic clickety-clack as 18 shiny new Amtrak baggage cars rolled through Elmira on Wednesday morning bound for Florida.

The 87-foot-long cars, built at CAF USA in Elmira Heights, stopped briefly in Eldridge Park, drawing a small crowd.

"This is a culmination of over two years' worth of work from a lot of folks here in the community. Just to see them go down the road is really satisfying," said Mark Smith, CAF USA director of manufacturing.

The cars are part of Amtrak's effort to modernize its fleet and ... are slated to enter service early next year on long-distance routes.

They are part of a $300 million contract from Amtrak through which CAF USA will produce 130 long-distance passenger cars — baggage, diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars. Work is expected to continue into 2016. Employment has grown to 800 at the Elmira Heights plant, which expanded to fulfill this contract and others....




Excerpts from another nice article from the Elmira StarGazette, whose reporting started this thread about 66 pages back.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

So if I've got this correctly, the 25 new Viewliner II sleepers will serve alongside the old Viewliner I sleepers, right? And since the new ones will have a restroom but no in-room toilets, if the new sleepers are dispatched more-or-less randomly around the Viewliner-equipped trains, there's no way of knowing what sort of plumbing you'll have?


----------



## Ryan

In the transition time, yes. At the end of the day, the Viewliner I's will be equipped with roomette modules that don't have the toilet.


----------



## George K

RyanS said:


> In the transition time, yes. At the end of the day, the Viewliner I's will be equipped with roomette modules that don't have the toilet.


Are the Viewliner I's modular? Also, what's the transition time (I'm too old and lazy to look it up)?


----------



## Ryan

Yes.

Later. (I'm not sure that a firm timeline is known)


----------



## Acela150

It will be a while. They'll only be able to take 1 or 2 out for the change at a time.


----------



## afigg

George K said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the transition time, yes. At the end of the day, the Viewliner I's will be equipped with roomette modules that don't have the toilet.
> 
> 
> 
> Are the Viewliner I's modular? Also, what's the transition time (I'm too old and lazy to look it up)?
Click to expand...

There is no funding for the conversion or upgrade of the Viewliner Is in the five year financial plan released for FY2014 (through FY18). There is no schedule or upgrade timeframe to discuss until the funds are in the budget. We'll see if there is any increase in the projected Viewliner overhaul funding levels of $7.5 to $8,9 million a year in the FY2015-19 five year plan whenever that is posted.

In the interim, which is likely to last years, there will be 25 Viewliner IIs with 11 roomettes & 2 bathrooms and 50 Viewliner Is with 12 roomettes with in-room toilets. Since the Viewliner IIs should be more resistent to cold weather, they may get assigned primarily to the LSL, Cardinal, and CL pass-through cars.


----------



## Bob Dylan

As one who likes having the toliet and sink in the Viewliner Roomette, I wouldn't be bothered by having ride in a I until Amtrak can get the funds to refurbish them!

Its similar to the Superliner Sleepers where the older Is have been nicely refurbished while the newer IIs are getting shabby and in need of total rehab!

I wonder where the money will come from too, I'd rather see the funding Amtrak has used for ordering more IIs, Viewlinwrs,Diners, Bag Cars and new Viewliner Coaches and Cafe/Lounge Cars also before the production line doing the IIs shuts down! ( I know it's wishful thinking!)


----------



## neroden

The Viewliner Is are exceptionally modular. Entire roomettes pull out through a hatch in the side. (The IIs are equally modular.) During rehabs, if there are any problem roomettes, they are simply replaced entirely with a spare roomette, so as to save time and get the car back in service quicker.

There is no timeline on the retrofits and they're unfunded.


----------



## Guest

jimhudson said:


> As one who likes having the toliet and sink in the Viewliner Roomette, I wouldn't be bothered by having ride in a I until Amtrak can get the funds to refurbish them!


As one who also likes having the toilet and sink in the Viewliner I's Roomette, I would advocate the overall of the II's to correct for their downright incompetent design mistake, long before seeing Congress spending a penny on any other Amtrak's follies.


----------



## John Bredin

Choosing differently than you would isn't incompetence. Plenty of people like a toilet in their sleeper, but plenty don't. I have a friend who was grossed out when she toured a Viewliner during a National Train Day and realized there'd be a toliet a foot away as she sleeps.

My one time in a Viewliner roomette (Lake Shore Limited on a blizzardy Christmas Day), the toilets weren't working in my car, so I didn't really have a toilet in my room either. IF the common-toilet design allows Amtrak to better keep the pipes unfrozen than a toilet in each roomette, I think it's an improvement.


----------



## PerRock

John Bredin said:


> My one time in a Viewliner roomette (Lake Shore Limited on a blizzardy Christmas Day), the toilets weren't working in my car, so I didn't really have a toilet in my room either. IF the common-toilet design allows Amtrak to better keep the pipes unfrozen than a toilet in each roomette, I think it's an improvement.


I think the under-car cowling will help more for keeping the pipes un-frozen then the number of bathrooms.

I just thought of something however. Presumably in both the Viewliner I & IIs all the pipes & electronics are stored under the car (in the 1s their exposed, on the 2 their in their own housing) how do all the individual room modules connect to these pipes and cables?

peter


----------



## neroden

PerRock said:


> I just thought of something however. Presumably in both the Viewliner I & IIs all the pipes & electronics are stored under the car (in the 1s their exposed, on the 2 their in their own housing) how do all the individual room modules connect to these pipes and cables?


Very carefully. 
That is probably 3/4 of the work of installing the modules!


----------



## VentureForth

Any idea when these will enter revenue service? A tough question perhaps, as these don't really generate revenue, per se.


----------



## neroden

On my last trip, I chatted with an Amtrak employee in Chicago who said he had been assigned to the Viewliner II project well after it started.

I don't want to repeat everything he said because I'm sure it wasn't for publication, but basically he said they were having quality control issues, and that CAF was having difficulty with hiring/training/etc. skilled workers in Elmira. Which matches with the reasons for delay which we've heard before.

The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I, personally, suspect CAF, coming from well-educated Spain, didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.

So, frankly, I think we get the new Viewliners when Amtrak is satisfied that the quality is up to snuff, and I see no way of predicting when that will be. It's better to get the quality control done right than to accept inferior products, however.


----------



## fulham

Did the fellow mention anything about the baggage cars? Has Amtrak actually taken possession of these cars or are there still quality control issues that are being worked out?


----------



## neroden

He was vague. But it sounded like each one was individually being quality-checked in Hialeah with a fine-toothed comb.


----------



## Bus Nut

neroden said:


> The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I, personally, suspect CAF, coming from well-educated Spain, didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.


Maybe they should have located to Illinois. Or Ohio. Or Michigan. Hire from same pool that builds autos. You couldn't be more right about the manufacturing hollowing out. It's sad.


----------



## Viewliners

Two Viewliner baggage cars are rumored to be leaving Hialeah this week. Possibly tomorrow or Thursday. Not sure where they are headed, or how, but it may have something to do with final FRA inspection/certification/etc. From what I understand the cars are ready and just need final certification for service from the FRA.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Absolutely no room for messing up. You can still hear people

talking about how the wheels fell off the Acelas (hyperbole,

but a core of truth) after they entered service.

With a Congress full of haters, Amtrak can't afford to blunder

on new cars, not if it wants to ever order any more.

btw, I console myself thinking that CAF and Amtrak may have

worked out an informal (or formal and not disclosed) extension

of the option date. For a number of reasons, we're more likely

to see more Viewliner IIs if the order can go in next year or

the next, but not just yet.


----------



## PRR 60

WoodyinNYC said:


> Absolutely no room for messing up. You can still hear people
> 
> talking about how the wheels fell off the Acelas (hyperbole,
> 
> but a core of truth) after they entered service.
> 
> With a Congress full of haters, Amtrak can't afford to blunder
> 
> on new cars, not if it wants to ever order any more.
> 
> btw, I console myself thinking that CAF and Amtrak may have
> 
> worked out an informal (or formal and not disclosed) extension
> 
> of the option date. For a number of reasons, we're more likely
> 
> to see more Viewliner IIs if the order can go in next year or
> 
> the next, but not just yet.


I have a feeling that Amtrak wants nothing to do with any additional cars from CAF. Just a hunch.


----------



## neroden

WoodyinNYC said:


> btw, I console myself thinking that CAF and Amtrak may have
> 
> worked out an informal (or formal and not disclosed) extension
> 
> of the option date. For a number of reasons, we're more likely
> 
> to see more Viewliner IIs if the order can go in next year or
> 
> the next, but not just yet.


It does seem that all the delays are due to QC and difficulty staffing up. But if it gets to the point where quality out of CAF is satisfactory -- and I'd think it would get to that point *eventually*, though goodness knows when -- then I would expect the following:

-- CAF would probably be a bit desperate to regain their reputation, so would be happy to build option cars at good prices

-- Amtrak would be interested in getting said option cars, as long as they're identical to the existing ones which have been vetted. (As in, we're already dealing with these, a larger fleet is easier than a smaller fleet.)

I would not, however, expect CAF to get any future order for single-level coaches (or cafes/lounges/observation cars).


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> … quality control issues, and that CAF was having difficulty with hiring/training/etc. skilled workers in Elmira….
> 
> The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I ... suspect CAF … didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.


Hope none of this applies to Rochelle, Illinois

with the new plant and crew for assembling 

bi-levels for the Midwest and West Coast states.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Different area of the country. New York State is not know for its heavy welding work places. Sure we make stuff, but fire safes, plastic sprayers, power-drinks, apple products, and the odd chemical plant is not heavy manufacturing.

The Rochelle plant is just off two different interstates and is in a industrialized area. A lot of work goes on in and around the town. They have been issues for them but they seem to be handle it better.


----------



## Bus Nut

WoodyinNYC said:


> Absolutely no room for messing up. You can still hear people
> 
> talking about how the wheels fell off the Acelas (hyperbole,
> 
> but a core of truth) after they entered service.


Not quite, the brakes cracked. There was no wreck; they didn't pass inspection. Something to remember when folks get to whining about all the safety procedures in the rulebook. They're there for a reason, to protect your impatient self!


----------



## Bus Nut

Viewliners said:


> Two Viewliner baggage cars are rumored to be leaving Hialeah this week. Possibly tomorrow or Thursday. Not sure where they are headed, or how, but it may have something to do with final FRA inspection/certification/etc. From what I understand the cars are ready and just need final certification for service from the FRA.


W00t! I hope a railfan can snap some pictures as they make their way out of Florida.


----------



## NE933

So then the prolonged absence of any official entry date for these, the long gaps between them (the last we saw and heard was the december movement of over 20 cars, then, silence), is in fact, de facto confirmation that something very bad has happened with this order. It has to be. Badly needed new cars that can only help revenue and passenger experience is deliberately delayed, with no spoken cause.


----------



## andersone

I much prefer and exhaustive testing mode that insures quality. We will have to live with these cars for a long time, make em right.


----------



## MikefromCrete

WoodyinNYC said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> … quality control issues, and that CAF was having difficulty with hiring/training/etc. skilled workers in Elmira….
> 
> The industrial base of upstate NY is hollowed out and well-trained industrial workers have moved elsewhere. I ... suspect CAF … didn't realize the hiring environment they were walking into, and wasn't prepared to train its workers from scratch from middle school level, and also wasn't prepared to pay extra to poach workers from other parts of the country.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope none of this applies to Rochelle, Illinois
> 
> with the new plant and crew for assembling
> 
> bi-levels for the Midwest and West Coast states.
Click to expand...

Nippon-Shayro seems to be doing a good job on Metra's new electric Highliners. I haven't heard of any problems with them. So I expect the much less complicated order for locomotive-hauled double-deckers for Midwest states and California to come out on schedule and in good shape. CAF's handling of the Viewliner II's has been terrible. The delays have just been awful. Not one car from this order is yet in service. I would hope Amtrak stays far away from CAF for any future orders.


----------



## VentureForth

Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict? It seems like ANYONE who does business with Amtrak has issues, whereas other rail groups (ie: Metra, Denton A Train, DART, and hosts of other systems) don't seem to squeal near as much.

SOMETHING is wrong when the new Talgos, Acela, Viewliner IIs and other Amtrak orders all seem to struggle more than the average transport-political machine. Siemen's new engines seem to be pretty good - may be the best order fulfilled to date for Amtrak.


----------



## Ryan

Who was around when the Superliners and Amfleets were delivered?


----------



## jis

So what problems did Amfleets and Superliners have? Can't recall much of anything regarding them during their delivery. Viewliner Is were problematic starting with the choice of the manufacturer, which was done more in a fit of misguided national pride than based on anything practical. So the problems were entirely expected and they did unfold, ultimately a foreign company coming to the rescue at the end of it all.

Coming to think of it, how about the AEM-7s and even the F40s and P40/42s? What huge problems were faced during delivery. I can't discern any specific pattern in all this. Oh yeah, E60s and the Pooches were not exactly smooth sailing. OTOH, the Horizons were not problem AFAIR.


----------



## spacecadet

jis said:


> So what problems did Amfleets and Superliners have?


They had quite a few problems, although I'm not sure if they were major or minor from a real maintenance perspective. The original Amfleets (and I think the Superliner I's too), for example, had pneumatic or hydraulic doors that worked for about a day before breaking down. (They were pretty cool when they worked; they looked and sounded like Star Trek doors.) I can remember walking through trains where it seemed like almost every door was flapping open and closed, and where pressing the buttons did nothing, you just had to manually pull the doors open and hold them as you walked through. This system seemed to have been pretty quickly changed to electric motors, and that seemed to fix the problem.

I recall there being some problem with the Amfleet I's trucks being maintenance hogs too; something about the air bladders losing air more quickly than they were supposed to. I'm not sure if this was also an issue in the Superliners, which use a different truck design.

And while this is anecdotal, I rode on Amfleet and Superliner cars often in the early 80's and it seemed like things were always broken on both. The dumbwaiters on Superliner dining cars, microwaves or refrigerators on either or both, the heat on Amfleet cars, doors, bathrooms, you name it. These cars always seemed a lot more fragile right from the factory than the cars they were replacing.

They actually seem in a lot better shape now than when they were brand new.


----------



## afigg

VentureForth said:


> Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict? It seems like ANYONE who does business with Amtrak has issues, whereas other rail groups (ie: Metra, Denton A Train, DART, and hosts of other systems) don't seem to squeal near as much.
> 
> SOMETHING is wrong when the new Talgos, Acela, Viewliner IIs and other Amtrak orders all seem to struggle more than the average transport-political machine. Siemen's new engines seem to be pretty good - may be the best order fulfilled to date for Amtrak.


Many of the commuter rail equipment purchases are for coach cars from existing product lines. Once the problems are worked out with the first customer, you would not expect many serious production issues with the follow-on orders from other transit agencies. Amtrak, OTOH, is ordering more specialized equipment with regards to the US market, namely intercity passenger rail equipment, which are not off the shelf orders.
You are also overlooking recent equipment order problems and major schedule slips by other transit agencies: SEPTA with the SilverLiner V and the WMATA Series 7000 car order come to mind. Ok, the earthquake and tsunami in Japan stalling the design and build of the first 4 cars for testing was a good excuse for the initial delays for the DC Metro Series 7000 car deliveries. The Siemens ACS-64 roll-out has not been entirely smooth either. The initial deployment numbers missed any number of schedule dates.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Very good synopsis of the early problems with the Superliner Is, some of which are still present! ( bathrooms, HVAC,doors,dumbwaiters)

More of us that were in the NE remember the well documented problems with the new Acelas also! ( I liked the Metroliners, especially the seats, myself!)

I never cared for the Amcan Is(especially the Airline style windows), the IIs were a big improvement except for the vestibules and the freezing up problems!! Horizons might have been mechanically sound, but no-one really likes riding in them!( the lighting is especially bad!)


----------



## jis

Pioneer trucks used with Amfleets are a bit finicky. That has not much to do with Amfleet per se except for the fact that they use those trucks. The air suspension proved to be a pain to maintain and was eventually canned completely. The justification for using Pioneer trucks was to reduce overall weight of the cars, which was not a bad reason at all.

Other than maintenance issues with Pioneer and also the German trucks under Super Is I don;t recall any significant mechanical issues related to running gear. Mostly they had normal teething issues.

Incidentally, the Horizon cars were derived from Comet cars of which many hundred had been delivered previously. For that matter the Amfleet cars were pretty much the old Metroliner cars on lighter trucks. Nothing terribly special other than the furnishing for either of those.

Compared to those the NJT Comet Vs were a walking disaster, and some of their problems still persist. OTOH, the MLVs have been surprisingly free of trouble, except for automatic door issues. But they don;t have issues as bad as the Comet Vs do/did.Introduction of ALP46s by NJT had some transformer catching fire issues initially, but was fixed quickly. The introduction of the 46As have been surprisingly free of trouble even though internally they are completely new engine, even though they look like the old 46s.

It is really hard to guess how an introduction will go until you live through it.


----------



## afigg

The FY15 budget & business plan, FY16 budget justification and FY15-19 Five Year financial plan document has been posted to the Amtrak website. We should start a separate thread on the document as there is a LOT of material and information in it, but it does provide updates on the plans (and hopes and dreams) for the CAF Viewliner II order. To wit:



> Long Distance Single Level Cars -Amtrak entered into a contract with CAF USA for delivery of 130 long-distance single level cars, designated as Viewliner II, for use on Long Distance trains, primarily over routes where clearances prevent the operation of bi-level Superliner equipment. The order has been amended to better meet the needs of the business and now consists of 70 baggage cars, 10 crew dorm cars, 25 diners and 25 sleeping cars. The first baggage car of the order was received in May 2014 for testing. Deliveries of additional cars began in the First Quarter of FY15, and the final unit will be delivered by the end of April 2016. The total project cost will be $342.8 million.
> 
> Payment for acquisition of these cars and related spare parts is being funded by annual Federal capital appropriations and operating revenues that exceeded projections.


In the Expected Fleet Availability table (Exhibit 2-1) they project that 68 Viewliner IIs will be in the active fleet by the end of FY15. Of course, they have totally missed the delivery schedule for the new Viewliners in the 2 previous FY budgets, so it may be more optimistic thinking. OTOH, that could be 68 baggage cars by the end of September.
The FY15 budget also states that the project to implement Wi-Fi on the eastern single level LD fleet is in progress. Likely tied in with the Viewliner II deliveries as it would make sense for the new diner and sleeper cars to come with Wi-Fi hubs built in.


----------



## neroden

NE933 said:


> So then the prolonged absence of any official entry date for these, the long gaps between them (the last we saw and heard was the december movement of over 20 cars, then, silence), is in fact, de facto confirmation that something very bad has happened with this order.


Absoutely not. All the evidence is that the problems are quality control issues, and that Amtrak is on top of it. This is really *annoying*, but not "very bad". The most likely result will be that the cars get fixed and are OK in the end, that they show up late, and that Amtrak gets discounts due to the delays. Which from Amtrak's point of view (always cash-starved) is actually pretty decent.


----------



## neroden

VentureForth said:


> Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict?


Look, what I was told is that CAF was having trouble hiring suitable workers in Elmira. I believe that.

How do you talk a skilled worker elsewhere into moving to Elmira, where their spouse may be unable to find a job? If you are hiring unskilled workers, then you have to train them up from scratch, which takes years (and would account for delays!)

I would not blame CAF or Amtrak; the result is pretty much caused by the Buy American rules, which both of them are stuck with. I can't even blame them for locating in Elmira; the factory is well-located and has good equipment, and NY State was offering discounts and deals to move there.

I think there was a failure to pay attention to the state of the labor market in Elmira prior to locating the factory there.

The most colorful comment made by the fellow I talked to in Chicago was "Either they can't read a blueprint or they can't pass a drug test", regarding the hiring process. I'm sure this is a slight exaggeration. (Personally, I'd hire the ones who can read blueprints correctly while on drugs, but federal procurement rules probably prohibit this! ;-) )

But my point is that the design of these cars is fine; there are issues with execution. As long as Amtrak is assiduous about quality control, Amtrak is going to get some very good cars, at discount prices, late. But there may be a lot of "back to the factory to be redone" in the meantime.

The thing is, once all the problems are worked out, CAF *will* have a competent, well-trained workforce who knows how to make these particular cars at least (this having been a *learning experience*). So if I were at Amtrak, I would have no compunction about exercising the options.


----------



## R30A

Based on the number of heritage baggage cars planned as active at the end of this fiscal year (0), it appears as if all the Viewliners being delivered this fiscal year will be baggage cars(perhaps some Baggage dorms).


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Different area of the country. New York State is not know for its heavy welding work places.


You remember that CAF was advertising for certified stainless steel welders a year or two ago? Well after they were supposed to have produced some of the Viewliners?
Yeah.

They may have ended up having to train their stainless steel welders from scratch. That takes time.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it really CAF's fault? Were the requirements set by Amtrak too vague? Too strict?
> 
> 
> 
> Look, what I was told is that CAF was having trouble hiring suitable workers in Elmira. I believe that.
> 
> ...
> 
> The most colorful comment made by the fellow I talked to in Chicago was "Either they can't read a blueprint or they can't pass a drug test", regarding the hiring process. I'm sure this is a slight exaggeration. (Personally, I'd hire the ones who can read blueprints correctly while on drugs, but federal procurement rules probably prohibit this! ;-) )
> 
> ...
Click to expand...

The drug test rule is surely by the wisdom of Congress, and truly stoopid.

They are testing for marijuana, which leaves traces in the urine for 30 days or so,

while the observable effects, like the infamous Cheeto cravings, are all gone

in a few hours, or at most after a good night's sleep.

I'd have no problem buying products made by weekend users of marijuana.

Or morning users. I'd prefer they be mellowed out on the weed than having

downed a couple of brews (never tested for) on the way in to work. Let's be real.


----------



## Paulus

WoodyinNYC said:


> The drug test rule is surely by the wisdom of Congress, and truly stoopid.
> 
> They are testing for marijuana, which leaves traces in the urine for 30 days or so,
> 
> while the observable effects, like the infamous Cheeto cravings, are all gone
> 
> in a few hours, or at most after a good night's sleep.
> 
> I'd have no problem buying products made by weekend users of marijuana.
> 
> Or morning users. I'd prefer they be mellowed out on the weed than having
> 
> downed a couple of brews (never tested for) on the way in to work. Let's be real.


If someone can't stay off weed for a month in order to get the job, I doubt their willingness to stay off of it coming in to work as well.


----------



## PaulM

neroden said:


> All the evidence is that the problems are quality control issues, and that Amtrak is on top of it. This is really *annoying*, but not "very bad". The most likely result will be that the cars get fixed and are OK in the end, that they show up late, and that Amtrak gets discounts due to the delays. Which from Amtrak's point of view (always cash-starved) is actually pretty decent.


Stainless steel welder problems could account for the multi-year delivery delay; but not the vacation in Florida. Could you give examples of QC issues that were not caught before delivery? Wouldn't CAF have run a few of the cars on a real track before delivery. Or test on-board systems like toilets? Doesn't CAF have a QA department?

It's ironic in a way. Amtrak's customers perform the quality assurance function when it comes to train service; and you seem to be saying that Amtrak is performing QA for CAF.


----------



## neroden

What real track would CAF test on? CAF's own track at the factory is miniscule (go look at it on Google Earth), and NS is bound to be uncooperative. I suppose Amtrak could send its people up to CAF, but it may have been more expedient to send the cars to Hialeah rather than sending the Hialeah supervisors to Elmira.



> you seem to be saying that Amtrak is performing QA for CAF.


Even though I'd assume CAF does its own QA, it's just due diligence at this point for Amtrak to repeat the QA. Especially with the known earlier problems with welding.


----------



## PRR 60

neroden said:


> What real track would CAF test on? CAF's own track at the factory is miniscule (go look at it on Google Earth), and NS is bound to be uncooperative. I suppose Amtrak could send its people up to CAF, but it may have been more expedient to send the cars to Hialeah rather than sending the Hialeah supervisors to Elmira.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you seem to be saying that Amtrak is performing QA for CAF.
> 
> 
> 
> Even though I'd assume CAF does its own QA, it's just due diligence at this point for Amtrak to repeat the QA. Especially with the known earlier problems with welding.
Click to expand...

If Amtrak did not have independent QA monitoring of the manufacturing process at the shop, then they should get some new project management people. The are plenty of contractors who perform that kind of service, and perform it well. Amtrak should not be performing any extensive QA after the cars are delivered to a location 1000 miles remote from the assembly shop. Everything should have been inspected and certified by Amtrak before the cars left the shop. Project Management 101.

The initial on-road testing of the initially released cars prove the specs, design and detailing. QC/QA during assembly ensures the production cars meet the approved specs, design and detailing. Once production cars leave the shop, any final punch-list items found later should be few and minor. Why the cars are still sitting in Miami several months after release is anyone's guess. It could be something simple like establishing parts inventory and training for routine maintenance before putting the cars on the road. However, if they are finding serious issues with assembly quality with the cars already in Hialeah, then Amtrak would be as much to blame as CAF.


----------



## neroden

PRR 60 said:


> The are plenty of contractors who perform that kind of service, and perform it well.


Name three with specialization in railroads. Then tell me how much they charge. I would bet that Amtrak *has* to do this with Amtrak staff. You can't really subcontract oversight; that way lies madness, and it's destroyed a lot of companies.



> Amtrak should not be performing any extensive QA after the cars are delivered to a location 1000 miles remote from the assembly shop.


The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.


----------



## cirdan

PRR 60 said:


> The initial on-road testing of the initially released cars prove the specs, design and detailing. QC/QA during assembly ensures the production cars meet the approved specs, design and detailing. Once production cars leave the shop, any final punch-list items found later should be few and minor. Why the cars are still sitting in Miami several months after release is anyone's guess. It could be something simple like establishing parts inventory and training for routine maintenance before putting the cars on the road. However, if they are finding serious issues with assembly quality with the cars already in Hialeah, then Amtrak would be as much to blame as CAF.


I spent half a year as an intern with a rolling stock manufacturer in the testing department.

The number of things that can be wrong is seemingly infinite. When you think you've seen it all something else will turn up.

Youi can't compare this to automobile manufacturing where the far larger scale leads to a very homogenous process.

So although a lot of errors are detected and rectified, there are always a couple that will slip through.


----------



## StriderGDM

And honestly, as frustrating as it may be, it's been only 2 months. My guess is, among other things is they'd rather release say 4 or 8 at a time into service than 1 or 2.

That way they can replace a large group (say an entire route's worth at once) and ensure they're making a large leap in improvements, not slowly trickling in "yet another car type" into the fleet.

And with the winter the Northeast has been having, do they really want to introduce something new into the area right now?

I mean as much as it would be nice to have them, are we really losing anything useful right now?


----------



## NE933

Yes, we are losing not only capacity and, a sort of 'wow' factor that will would cause a dreary population to look at long distance trains as their ticket to get the hell out of the snow and at sunnier locales, but also the chance to see how well they perform in extreme temperatures.


----------



## D.P. Roberts

NE933 said:


> Yes, we are losing not only capacity and, a sort of 'wow' factor that will would cause a dreary population to look at long distance trains as their ticket to get the hell out of the snow and at sunnier locales, but also the chance to see how well they perform in extreme temperatures.


Just to clarify - we're still talking about baggage cars, right?


----------



## VentureForth

neroden said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak should not be performing any extensive QA after the cars are delivered to a location 1000 miles remote from the assembly shop.
> 
> 
> 
> The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.
Click to expand...

Design the car. Test components. Assemble prototype. Start production. Test prototype. Re-engineer flaws. Re-evaluate. Incorporate changes into units on assembly line, roll rev change for future starts.

This should ALL be done by CAF, NOT AMTRAK unless they have some wonky provision in their contract stating so. CAF should be responsible for the building, testing and certification. In this weird case, Amtrak is not only the customer, but part of the certification process. But this should be accomplished on the prototypes. First few production units may see some re-work, but that's expected. When all is grand, THEN ramp up full production rate and turn them over to Amtrak for revenue.

But to 8uild 20-40-80?, give them to your customer, transport them 1000 miles, and sit on them? It doesn't make sense.


----------



## jis

Amtrak should be doing acceptance test on each unit as they are received irrespective of how many certification tests the basic design has passed. Each unit is slightly different, and that is reality. There should be an agreed upon acceptance test suite that each unit should go through. They are doing so for the ACS's for example, and certainly should do so for the Viewliners too.

If units fail acceptance test, then the song and dance begins about when and how to get them fixed and who pays for what. We may be sitting at this point. If the customer's testers are a thousand miles away, and that was the agreed upon delivery point, then yes, they move thousand miles and then sit there. It makes perfect sense to me, given such a scenario.


----------



## Guest

neroden said:


> The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.


Makes me wonder, too, what if the defects are truck or coupler related?



VentureForth said:


> But to 8uild 20-40-80?, give them to your customer, transport them 1000 miles, and sit on them? It doesn't make sense.


Makes me also wonder if this is simply to support payment/billing? As soon as Amtrak moves them out, be it 1 mile or 1,000 miles, it has accepted the cars and payment can be demanded. Amtrak seems to me, to still be working like a government bureaucracy, and with vendors calling a lot of the shots.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Amtrak should be doing acceptance test on each unit as they are received irrespective of how many certification tests the basic design has passed. Each unit is slightly different, and that is reality. There should be an agreed upon acceptance test suite that each unit should go through. They are doing so for the ACS's for example, and certainly should do so for the Viewliners too.
> 
> If units fail acceptance test, then the song and dance begins about when and how to get them fixed and who pays for what. We may be sitting at this point. If the customer's testers are a thousand miles away, and that was the agreed upon delivery point, then yes, they move thousand miles and then sit there. It makes perfect sense to me, given such a scenario.


Or the hold-up could simply be that the baggage cars at Hialeah are waiting for the final FRA certification before they can be released to revenue service. Or they have to complete the training and qualification of enough maintenance and on-board personnel before the new cars cam be released into the wild.


----------



## afigg

Well, there are photos available in the just posted Jan/Feb 2015 issue of the Amtrak Ink magazine (3.5 MB PDF) of the inspection process in Hialeah for those questioning whether anything is being done with the first 18 baggage cars moved there in December. The photos are on pages 10 and 11.

Text excerpt from the Amtrak Ink issue:



> The Amtrak program to modernize its long-distance train equipment advanced to a key milestone on Wednesday, December 17, 2015, when 18 new baggage cars departed the CAF USA Elmira, New York, facility and traveled to Amtrak’s Hialeah maintenance facility in Florida for final inspections before acceptance.
> 
> After arriving in Hialeah, the baggage cars went through a final round of inspections before being accepted. The baggage cars are expected to enter revenue service in 2015 and will be used on Amtrak’s long-distance routes. The baggage cars are part of a larger order for 130 single-level, long-distance passenger cars, including diner, sleeper and bag-dorm cars. All four car types will modernize the Amtrak fleet, improve reliability and maintenance, upgrade passenger amenities and travel at speeds up to 125 mph.


Since the text is in the past tense, "went through a final round of inspections before being accepted", that obviously implies that the cars have been officially accepted. So perhaps, we will soon indeed begin to see shiny new baggage cars showing up in revenue service.


----------



## NE933

It's sad when you have to use the word "perhaps" in the sentence describing when they'll enter service, nearly two years late.

Actually, 20 years late. A fleet of 300 or so Viewliners was to have been keystones of the eastern long distance fleet back in the early 90's, before Congress and ex Pres.s erased the money for them.


----------



## neroden

Guest said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The nice thing about rolling stock is that it's easy to move. Suppose Amtrak goes through all the cars and finds that 28 of them are fine and 2 have to be returned... would that be easier to do by sending Amtrak's people up to CAF? Maybe not.
> 
> 
> 
> Makes me wonder, too, what if the defects are truck or coupler related?
Click to expand...

If so, then it wouldn't be a good idea to move them, yes. I'm pretty sure the problems at issue aren't systemic truck or coupler problems. Those, they *would* have to check before moving them! Though it's worth nothing that trucks can be swapped, and are swapped. I'm not even sure CAF is making the trucks in-house; they may be buying a standard truck.
Not so long ago, there were serious problems with a couple of the newly delivered ACS-64s discussed on another forum... just because some wiring had been plugged together wrong. I would expect that they are checking stuff like that (especially with the "can't read a blueprint" comment).

----

It's unfortunate that CAF was unable to deliver on time, but that is water under the bridge now. Hopefully CAF has managed to acquire suitable staff at this point.

So, we should start pushing for a small exercise of the options. I think there are plenty of baggage cars on order. An option should focus on bag-dorms and sleepers.

Though I'd order 3 more diners to insure against potential future wrecks, service expansions, or shortage of Superliners. It will never be economical to order just a few diners unless it's an option on this order. And while keeping a reserve fleet of identical Heritage baggage cars may make sense, that doesn't seem likely to be possible with the diners. (I don't think there are more than 3 of a kind: 8505, 8507, 8552 are from the same original lot and had the Temoinsa rebuild.)


----------



## StriderGDM

I'm in full agreement on trying to exercise the option. Both for wreck repair/replacement and possible expansion.

More baggage cars could easily be added to existing trains giving more options. (For example, train 280 from Buffalo could do well, and feed into LD trains in NYC. This way I wouldn't have to carry my bags on 280 only to check them on 19.)


----------



## Ryan

There's more to adding baggage service than slapping on a baggage car. The stations have to be manned and open at the time the train calls, dwell time has to be increased at stations to account for baggage handling, etc.


----------



## StriderGDM

RyanS said:


> There's more to adding baggage service than slapping on a baggage car. The stations have to be manned and open at the time the train calls, dwell time has to be increased at stations to account for baggage handling, etc.


That's true, especially about the dwell time. But if you're adding it to a route that already has manned stations and baggage service (the Water Level route) it's really only the dwell time.

Same with adding it to a train or two along the NEC.

One of the big issues folks north and east of NYC have is trying to get their checked bags to NYP so it can then go on a LD train from there. Timing often sucks.


----------



## jis

One significant fly in the ointment of the grand plans of adding baggage cars to additional trains is that the current order is just barely enough to maintain baggage cars on the existing LD and MD trains that have such service, plus maybe a couple more. There is not going to be an abundance of spare baggage cars upon the completion of this order and the consequent removal from service of the superannuated Heritage baggage cars.


----------



## Train2104

RyanS said:


> There's more to adding baggage service than slapping on a baggage car. The stations have to be manned and open at the time the train calls, dwell time has to be increased at stations to account for baggage handling, etc.


Is there really no way to implement simple checked baggage (not high volume, no transfers, no guns, 2 bags only, no special items, no express) daily at an unstaffed station? There are a couple that do the exact same thing 2 days a week already.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

NE933 said:


> It's sad when you have to use the word "perhaps" in the sentence describing when they'll enter service, nearly two years late.
> 
> ...


It's sad when Amtrak Ink. has to use the phrase 

"expected to enter revenue service in 2015". 

Such vague dating. 

Do they mean FY 2015 or calendar 2015?

I'm going with calendar year, but I'm not 

going very fast.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> One significant fly in the ointment of the grand plans of adding baggage cars to additional trains is that the current order is just barely enough to maintain baggage cars on the existing LD and MD trains that have such service, plus maybe a couple more. There is not going to be an abundance of spare baggage cars upon the completion of this order and the consequent removal from service of the superannuated Heritage baggage cars.


They are expanding the baggage car fleet from 64 active baggage cars to a net total of 80 (70 baggage cars plus 10 bag-dorms). The 64 comes from the October, 2014 Inspector General report on planning for the utilization of the LD equipment. That report states that 48 baggage cars are planned for in service, so if 12 cars are shop and standby cars, that would leave 10 baggage cars that could be used in expanded service. But I think that Amtrak wants to have a somewhat larger reserve fleet for standby cars, peak season spares, and long term attrition reserves.

But that could still leave enough new baggage cars to add them to a daily Regional, the Pennsylvanian, and when/if the Customs facility in Montreal opens, the Adirondack. A Regional with a baggage car could have its scheduled tweaked to skip the small stops on the NEC to make up for the longer major station dwells, Adding baggage cars to those 3 trains would provide checked baggage options at the already staffed stations north of NYP and west of PHL for transfers to the LD trains.

As for option orders, it would be useful if Amtrak were to purchase an additional 5 sleeper cars and 5 bag-dorms. That, with 26 diner cars, could provide enough spare capacity to run a restored Broadway Limited* and have a baggage-dorm car on the Crescent in place of a full baggage car. I suspect the main reason for cutting the bag-dorm order was the concern about the peak seasonal baggage capacity on the Silvers.

However, I think there are no set plans to exercise any of the options from CAF. The FY2016 budget and updated fleet plan show 130 new single level LD cars with no hint of any more. If exercising part of the 70 car option is not in FY2016 wish list budget, when would it be added?

* setting aside the issue of coach cars.


----------



## jis

Frankly I will fall off my chair if the options on the CAF order are ever exercised (i.e. I don't think they will be exercised). But then again I have been wrong in the past. So we will see.

As for baggage cars, I suspect that the Pennsylvanian, Ethan Allen, Vermonter and something like 95/195 - 94/194 will get baggage cars. And that will be it for now.

If the Pennsylvanian to Cap transfer stuff ever happens it is possible that the baggage car will be part of the through consist, hence requiring three cars instead of two.

I would be more than surprised if any of the international trains in the east get them. Adirondack might get them after the C&I moves to Montreal Central, but not before that. Maple Leaf will not get it.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... the grand plans
> 
> 
> 
> However, I think there are no set plans to exercise any of the options from CAF. The FY2016 budget and updated fleet plan show 130 new single level LD cars with no hint of any more. If exercising part of the 70 car option is not in FY2016 wish list budget, when would it be added?
Click to expand...

If I were hoping to exercise any part of the option, I'd

(1) wait to see what the Acela IIs are gonna cost (and

we're creeping up on that announcement, this year iirc),

and

(2) I wouldn't tell Congress until the last possible moment

when I'd say we found some loose change under the

pillows while rebuilding the parlor cars, or sumpin.

and

(3) I'd tell Congress that at this point, any more cars ordered

would be delivered after the 2016 election, so no more

photo ops for Joe Biden. LOL.

From this point of view, the e x t e n d e d delays are

not all bad. I know nothing, but guess that maybe the

payments to CAF are being stretched out, allowing

Amtrak to pay a little more from cash flow in most

months. And to the extent that the problems are CAF's

problems (whether their fault, "can't read blueprints",

or not), some of what was due to CAF could be converted

into getting a few extra cars from them as a settlement.

I know I'm leaning on a thin reed, but I'm not giving up.


----------



## Guest

jis said:


> As for baggage cars, I suspect that the Pennsylvanian, Ethan Allen, Vermonter and something like 95/195 - 94/194 will get baggage cars. And that will be it for now.


You don't think the Silvers will get a new baggage car?

Especially given that the Silvers come the physically closest to where the baggage cars are being stored.


----------



## jis

All existing baggage car service will of course get the new baggage cars. I was just listing trains that currently do not have baggage cars that might get them. Please read my post carefully in context of the discussion I was having with afigg, and not just by itself.


----------



## StriderGDM

jis said:


> Frankly I will fall off my chair if the options on the CAF order are ever exercised (i.e. I don't think they will be exercised). But then again I have been wrong in the past. So we will see.
> 
> As for baggage cars, I suspect that the Pennsylvanian, Ethan Allen, Vermonter and something like 95/195 - 94/194 will get baggage cars. And that will be it for now.
> 
> If the Pennsylvanian to Cap transfer stuff ever happens it is possible that the baggage car will be part of the through consist, hence requiring three cars instead of two.
> 
> I would be more than surprised if any of the international trains in the east get them. Adirondack might get them after the C&I moves to Montreal Central, but not before that. Maple Leaf will not get it.


Fair point about the Maple Leaf. I'm mostly on board with what you suggest.

I think even minor improvements in the current baggage availability people will start to use it a lot more.

Keep in mind to that the new baggage cars will also support the transportation of bicycles, something that could quickly become very popular among the millennials.

Heck, I know if there was an easy way to check my bike w/o having to disassemble it and box it in ALB, I'd take it to DC from time to time.


----------



## PaulM

Train2104 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's more to adding baggage service than slapping on a baggage car. The stations have to be manned and open at the time the train calls, dwell time has to be increased at stations to account for baggage handling, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there really no way to implement simple checked baggage (not high volume, no transfers, no guns, 2 bags only, no special items, no express) daily at an unstaffed station? There are a couple that do the exact same thing 2 days a week already.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it. I know of 3 such: Mount Pleasant and Ft. Madison in Iowa and Newton, KS. The way it works is you attach one tag with the destination code onto your bag and keep the second for retrieval. You then stand by a sign on the platform where someone takes your bag. The sign in the station explaining the procedure is clear and easy to follow. This miracle-like break with tradition occurred about two years ago.

The time I tried it in FMD, a train staff person came bounding out of the transdorm, took the bag, and that was it. It took less dwell time than any station agent would.

At the same time, baggage service was reinstated at Galesburg after quite a while, despite 8 trains per day and at least 3 agents assigned to the station. The excuse was a lack of space. Once again, a miracle occurred; and it was discovered not to be a problem.


----------



## Train2104

PaulM said:


> You beat me to it. I know of 3 such: Mount Pleasant and Ft. Madison in Iowa and Newton, KS. The way it works is you attach one tag with the destination code onto your bag and keep the second for retrieval. You then stand by a sign on the platform where someone takes your bag. The sign in the station explaining the procedure is clear and easy to follow. This miracle-like break with tradition occurred about two years ago.
> 
> The time I tried it in FMD, a train staff person came bounding out of the transdorm, took the bag, and that was it. It took less dwell time than any station agent would.
> 
> At the same time, baggage service was reinstated at Galesburg after quite a while, despite 8 trains per day and at least 3 agents assigned to the station. The excuse was a lack of space. Once again, a miracle occurred; and it was discovered not to be a problem.


But those three stations are staffed (not with baggage handlers and not 7 days a week, but there's an Amtrak employee there at least a few days a week). Perhaps Amtrak has some reservation against putting this system in totally unstaffed stations. (did they have a kiosk full of tags? They couldn't possibly have every luggage station...)

Also, do all "normal" stations with checked baggage have a dedicated baggage handler? That seems really wasteful.


----------



## VT Hokie

No skilled workers in upstate NY? What happened to all the Super Steel Schenectady workers who made the RTL-III Turboliners?


----------



## OBS

They didn't make the turbos, they rebuilt (ruined) them...


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Super Steel project failed. Warehouse full of equipment sold off pennies on the dollar. Turboliners shredded. (The sets in NY)

Schenectady is now a tech zone, the major source of new jobs, and growth in this area.


----------



## neroden

WoodyinNYC said:


> And to the extent that the problems are CAF's
> 
> problems (whether their fault, "can't read blueprints",
> 
> or not), some of what was due to CAF could be converted
> 
> into getting a few extra cars from them as a settlement.


This has been done by another agency with another contractor fairly recently.
Was it Philadelphia with their infamously-delayed Silverliner V order? Or am I getting it mixed up with someone else. I know it happened to a recent rail car order.

If Amtrak settled with CAF for the delays by having CAF make more cars at no cost, that would probably be best from an accounting perspective for Amtrak. And it would be best for CAF from a marketing point of view.


----------



## neroden

PRR 60 said:


> If Amtrak did not have independent QA monitoring of the manufacturing process at the shop, then they should get some new project management people.


*cough* The statement from the fellow I talked to in Chicago was that Amtrak's project managers for the CAF order had been changed very recently.


----------



## wolfspirit

neroden said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> And to the extent that the problems are CAF's
> 
> problems (whether their fault, "can't read blueprints",
> 
> or not), some of what was due to CAF could be converted
> 
> into getting a few extra cars from them as a settlement.
> 
> 
> 
> This has been done by another agency with another contractor fairly recently.
> Was it Philadelphia with their infamously-delayed Silverliner V order? Or am I getting it mixed up with someone else. I know it happened to a recent rail car order.
Click to expand...

SEPTA was angling for straight up money out of Rotem, I think. I don't remember how it got resolved (either money, free refurb work, or if its still in the courts). I know it wasn't extra cars.


----------



## PaulM

Train2104 said:


> But those three stations are staffed (not with baggage handlers and not 7 days a week, but there's an Amtrak employee there at least a few days a week). Perhaps Amtrak has some reservation against putting this system in totally unstaffed stations. (did they have a kiosk full of tags? They couldn't possibly have every luggage station...)
> 
> Also, do all "normal" stations with checked baggage have a dedicated baggage handler? That seems really wasteful.


Yes there was a kiosk; but I don't remember whether the tags had station codes on them or you put the code on the tag yourself, but I do remember a sign with stations and code on it. I'm not sure how it would be handled if you wanted to check a bag to anywhere in the system on a connecting train. I'm sure there is a solution.

I don't see why this would only be possible at a station staffed 5 days a week. If you depart on Saturday, the fact that an agent was on duty the day before doesn't help you or the train staff.

I'm sure only the largest stations, like CHI, have dedicated baggage handlers. Generally, at smaller station the ticket office is closed near train time while the agent is handling baggage


----------



## OBS

Paul is correct in that the small stations have the ticket agent handle luggage duties as well. In some "medium" size/ volume stations, there will be a combined baggage/ custodian job where the person handles baggage/ cleaning/ lawn and snow duties, etc...


----------



## cirdan

jis said:


> If the Pennsylvanian to Cap transfer stuff ever happens it is possible that the baggage car will be part of the through consist, hence requiring three cars instead of two.


Wouldn't it be easier to transfer the baggage from one car to another, seeing we're talking about one sleeping car's worth of baggage here?


----------



## hastybob

OK - 3 of the baggage cars are on 98 today. 1 on the headline and 2 on the rear. That probably means the one on the head end is getting off in Washington and the other two going on to New York.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

hastybob said:


> OK - 3 of the baggage cars are on 98 today. 1 on the headline and 2 on the rear. That probably means the one on the head end is getting off in Washington and the other two going on to New York.


I hope this is the good news we've been waiting for.

Unless all three are heading back to Elmira.


----------



## R30A

My question is- are there any other baggage cars on today's 98 besides the Viewliners?


----------



## Amfleeter

R30A said:


> My question is- are there any other baggage cars on today's 98 besides the Viewliners?


I would assume one of them on the rear would be handling baggage if this is proper entry into service.


----------



## hastybob

Yes, there is another baggage car on rear of 98 today. From what I understand, the two on the rear are scheduled to go back south in a couple of days.


----------



## NewCars

The head-end Viewliner bag is for training in Washington. There is a regular Heritage baggage on the rear plus two deadhead Viewliner bags for New York. My source says those two on the rear are noted to come back on 97(27). Cars 61006, 61005 and 61004, respectively.


----------



## StriderGDM

Excellent news.

When I boarded train 20 the other day I was thinking to myself, "this time next year, it might be all Viewliners and Amfleet IIs and no heritage equipment. That would be cool."

A step closer.


----------



## NE933

And let's hope Hialeah will send another three tomorrow, another three the day after that, for the Lake Shore and Crescent, then continue with the other trains across the nation.

Equal in hopes department is that CAF will send more cars to Hialeah in this flow.


----------



## jis

By this time next year we'd be lucky if all the Baggage cars are deployed. I would not expect the Sleepers to be online in a big way by then though. Some Diners may be up and about.


----------



## afigg

NE933 said:


> And let's hope Hialeah will send another three tomorrow, another three the day after that, for the Lake Shore and Crescent, then continue with the other trains across the nation.
> 
> Equal in hopes department is that CAF will send more cars to Hialeah in this flow.


Not going to happen that quickly. If the guest posters is correct, one new baggage car is going to DC for training and the other 2 appear to be doing a Miami to NYP loop test run. Before the new cars go into service, they will have to complete training and familiarization for the crews and maintenance personnel. Probably will see new baggage cars sent one at a time to CHI, NOL, LAX, etc


----------



## Amfleeter

I wonder if NYP crews have already done familiarization with the new baggage cars - they have spent some time in PHI and NYP.


----------



## NE933

These things have generated and broken more prophecy than a Ouija board inside an Egyptian pyramid; gone through more tests than a ninety year old person's colon and clogged heart artery; led to more guesswork instead of steady pacing than a moonshine poker game.

So, they'd BETTER roll out well and steady. Our credibility and future rides on them. So does the vacations and journeys of me and millions of others.


----------



## lo2e

Here's a YouTube video which confirms what was posted - a bit hard to see in the dark, but it does look like 1 new baggage near the front, 2 new ones near the rear and a heritage at the rear:



The train starts to appear about 36 seconds in.


----------



## CHamilton

There are also some daylight photos in the Facebook Amtrak Northeast Corridor Railfans group.


----------



## CHamilton

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=520741&nseq=2


----------



## lo2e

Newer YouTube videos confirm that the lead one was indeed dropped off in WAS, as by the time it reached Metuchen, NJ it was no longer on there.

Example:


----------



## Guest

IMHO, the train would look nicer if the new baggage cars were always adjoining the existing Viewliner sleeper cars in the consist.


----------



## Ziv

So brand new #626 is hauling two new baggage cars? That is kind of like getting biscuits with your beer!





lo2e said:


> Newer YouTube videos confirm that the lead one was indeed dropped off in WAS, as by the time it reached Metuchen, NJ it was no longer on there.
> 
> Example:


----------



## lo2e

I believe _Indianapolis_ is on there too! Even better!


----------



## NewCars

98 deadheaded two more Viewliner baggage cars to NYP on 2/27 and the two cars that already went north are indeed coming back to MIA on 97(27).


----------



## Thirdrail7

NewCars said:


> 98 deadheaded two more Viewliner baggage cars to NYP on 2/27 and the two cars that already went north are indeed coming back to MIA on 97(27).


I think you have your 98's mixed up. 98(27) should have two deadhead sleepers that are coming back from Hialeah. 98(28) is supposed to have the two new bags but we're still awaiting confirmation.

If anyone sees otherwise, please post it.


----------



## Ryan

No, 98(27) deadheaded two Viewliner sleeping cars.

Edit: Thirdrail7 is correct, I just flew up to Odenton to get pictures and 98 had sleepers, not bags. Pics in a few.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Amfleeter said:


> I wonder if NYP crews have already done familiarization with the new baggage cars - they have spent some time in PHI and NYP.


Only certain mechanical department employees on the corridor received familiarization but that was before the modifications...and there were a lot of them.


----------



## Ryan

Any idea on what kind of modifications?

Here's the business end of 98(27), the deadhead cars were sleepers 62001 and 62018.









The rest of the set from the COLD morning!

http://photos.stavely.org/Trains/February-9827/


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan, is that guy holding a RailFan warning sign? Maybe it says "Smile, your pic is being taken". :giggle:


----------



## Ryan

They're cleaning up from the rail replacement on track 1, which goes back in service on Monday.

Also, the David L. Gunn was on the point - it didn't have a name the last time I shot it.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Amfleeter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if NYP crews have already done familiarization with the new baggage cars - they have spent some time in PHI and NYP.
> 
> 
> 
> Only certain mechanical department employees on the corridor received familiarization but that was before the modifications...and there were a lot of them.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing the modifications are mostly behind-the-scenes stuff (under the car, inside the cabinets), not stuff which would show up in a photo of ordinary baggage handling operations? Can you confirm?

-----

Apropos of nothing, I was looking at a photo of the new and old baggage cars... each new baggage car has two pairs of doors on each side, whereas the old cars often have one door in the center. I suspect that with long trains, these are going to be spotted with only one door on the platform. This should allow slightly more cars to be squeezed onto the platform in a single stop... hopefully this will help the Lake Shore Limited, which has had to make triple stops on occasion...


----------



## NE933

Any likelihood of a few sleepers and diners coming out in time for May - ish?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

NE933 said:


> Any likelihood of a few sleepers and diners coming out in time for May - ish?


Unless there's been a change, it's 55 baggage cars, then 10 bag-dorms, then 25 diners, and THEN 25 sleepers.

Short version: No.


----------



## neroden

Actually, I have heard no reports regarding the relative order of the diners and bag-dorms. Woody, got a link?

Everyone seems to agree that the sleepers are coming last. Amtrak wants to dispose of the Heritage baggage cars and diners ASAP.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> Actually, I have heard no reports regarding the relative order of the diners and bag-dorms. Woody, got a link?
> 
> Everyone seems to agree that the sleepers are coming last. Amtrak wants to dispose of the Heritage baggage cars and diners ASAP.


Thinking on it, methinks its baggage cars, then diners,

then bag dorms, then sleepers. Sorry.

I do recall two similar types in order. Baggage cars are

similar to bag dorms, BUT they are more similar to sleepers.

Anyway, nobody will be dining or sleeping in Viewliner IIs by May,

and probably not by September is my count.

I may turn up a link in a while.


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> Unless there's been a change, it's 55 baggage cars, then 10 bag-dorms, then 25 diners, and THEN 25 sleepers.
> 
> Short version: No.


Correction, remember the order is now a total of 70 baggage cars with the reduction of the bag-dorm order number. As for the production sequence, I only recall statements that the production sequence had been changed to build all the baggage cars first, but nothing specific about the sequence after that. With 70 baggage cars to be delivered, it may be fall before either diners or bag-dorms show up in the production sequence. Of course, when depends in part on how many baggage cars CAF has completed since the December delivery.

BTW, since it is the first of March and On-Track On-line typically updates its Amtrak roster info at that start of a month, I checked the website and it was indeed updated March 1. The rolling stock roster page for Viewliner IIs now shows 28 active baggage cars and notes that they were accepted in February.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

afigg said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless there's been a change, it's 55 baggage cars, then 10 bag-dorms, then 25 diners, and THEN 25 sleepers.
> 
> Short version: No.
> 
> 
> 
> Correction, remember the order is now a total of 70 baggage cars with the reduction of the bag-dorm order number. As for the production sequence, I only recall statements that the production sequence had been changed to build all the baggage cars first, but nothing specific about the sequence after that. With 70 baggage cars to be delivered, it may be fall before either diners or bag-dorms show up in the production sequence. Of course, when depends in part on how many baggage cars CAF has completed since the December delivery.
> 
> ...
Click to expand...

I went looking for a cite and got sidetracked

at the Wikipedia article on Viewliners. Then

I stopped to edit that item; it seemed more

confused the I am. LOL. Will look again for a cite.


----------



## Amfleeter

4 Bags heading NB on today's 98.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amfleeter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if NYP crews have already done familiarization with the new baggage cars - they have spent some time in PHI and NYP.
> 
> 
> 
> Only certain mechanical department employees on the corridor received familiarization but that was before the modifications...and there were a lot of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm guessing the modifications are mostly behind-the-scenes stuff (under the car, inside the cabinets), not stuff which would show up in a photo of ordinary baggage handling operations? Can you confirm?
> 
> -----
Click to expand...

Affirmative although I haven't been in the modified versions yet.



Amfleeter said:


> 4 Bags heading NB on today's 98.


This will happen for the next few days as they are deployed for training. Revenue runs are right around the corner. We should also look in the opposite direction next week. h34r:


----------



## Ryan

Sweet! 

If 98 is on time, I can catch it en route to work.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Be nice to see the tired old heritage bags replaced by the gleaming new bags and then dorm/bags, then the Viewliner Diners!

I honestly don't think we'll see any Viewliner II Sleepers in revenue service before 2016 based on the history of delays for these cars!!


----------



## Thirdrail7

RyanS said:


> They're cleaning up from the rail replacement on track 1, which goes back in service on Monday.
> 
> Also, the David L. Gunn was on the point - it didn't have a name the last time I shot it.



For the record, they were working 3 track and it isn't back yet. Hopefully it will be back next week.


----------



## Thirdrail7

RyanS said:


> Sweet!
> 
> If 98 is on time, I can catch it en route to work.



I'm not sure what happened to the MultiQuote. You'll have to act fast if you're looking for 98. Most of the bags are being deployed from Washington.


----------



## MattW

There isn't a prototype sleeper running around is there? I saw two extra Viewliners on the Crescent 19 this morning at Atlanta. Had the American View on it (I waved from the bus [after I connected from the train!]) and three Viewliners, I figure at least two were the revenue sleepers, the fourth was American View, so not sure what the third one was.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're cleaning up from the rail replacement on track 1, which goes back in service on Monday.
> 
> Also, the David L. Gunn was on the point - it didn't have a name the last time I shot it.
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, they were working 3 track and it isn't back yet. Hopefully it will be back next week.
Click to expand...

Thanks - I always number them backwards. It's still out? I assume they put the bridge plates back out, they were up on the platform all weekend.



Thirdrail7 said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet!
> 
> If 98 is on time, I can catch it en route to work.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what happened to the MultiQuote. You'll have to act fast if you're looking for 98. Most of the bags are being deployed from Washington.
Click to expand...

How many have made it to WAS?


----------



## offroad437

MattW said:


> There isn't a prototype sleeper running around is there? I saw two extra Viewliners on the Crescent 19 this morning at Atlanta. Had the American View on it (I waved from the bus [after I connected from the train!]) and three Viewliners, I figure at least two were the revenue sleepers, the fourth was American View, so not sure what the third one was.


Most likely 8400 diner prototype.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep, 8400 ( Indianapolis) has been running on the Crescent lately so that's most certainly what you saw!


----------



## MattW

But hasn't 8400 been running as the revenue diner rather than behind the sleepers? This train was baggage - amfleets - heritage diner - 3 Viewliners - American view:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P5KgBk6BVs


----------



## Thirdrail7

RyanS said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet!
> 
> If 98 is on time, I can catch it en route to work.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what happened to the MultiQuote. You'll have to act fast if you're looking for 98. Most of the bags are being deployed from Washington.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many have made it to WAS?
Click to expand...


One so far. Allow me to clarify what I stated. The cars are not massing in WAS. When they arrive from the south on 98, they will cut in WAS and spread out from there. An example is a car that will ultimately land in BOS will cut off 98 in WAS, not NYP or PHL. A car headed to RVR or CLT will cut off 98 in WAS and deploy from there.



MattW said:


> But hasn't 8400 been running as the revenue diner rather than behind the sleepers? This train was baggage - amfleets - heritage diner - 3 Viewliners - American view:


That's a rider sleeper for occupants of the 10004. It is a typical move.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> One so far. Allow me to clarify what I stated. The cars are not massing in WAS. When they arrive from the south on 98, they will cut in WAS and spread out from there. An example is a car that will ultimately land in BOS will cut off 98 in WAS, not NYP or PHL. A car headed to RVR or CLT will cut off 98 in WAS and deploy from there.


Got it, thanks.  Being north of WAS, there won't be anything to see.


----------



## offroad437

MattW said:


> But hasn't 8400 been running as the revenue diner rather than behind the sleepers? This train was baggage - amfleets - heritage diner - 3 Viewliners - American view:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P5KgBk6BVs


Sleeper for whomever was in American view??


----------



## R30A

This all makes me wonder where they are ending up. If they are going places for familiarization, I would guess one would be needed at the yards of each of WAS NYP BOS CHI NOL LAX OKJ and SEA, (is there any work done at Newport News, Charlotte, Savannah or San Antonio?). Do the train and station crews need to be familiarized with them too prior to entering service? (is that what they are doing running up and down on the Meteor?)


----------



## Guest

R30A said:


> This all makes me wonder where they are ending up. If they are going places for familiarization, I would guess one would be needed at the yards of each of WAS NYP BOS CHI NOL LAX OKJ and SEA, (is there any work done at Newport News, Charlotte, Savannah or San Antonio?). Do the train and station crews need to be familiarized with them too prior to entering service? (is that what they are doing running up and down on the Meteor?)


The crews need training.


----------



## Blackwolf

Just how much training does a train crew need for a _baggage car?_ Its a hollow stainlesst steel tube with wheels.

The shelves are not a new idea, just a new feature for a new car. Same with the bike racks. Both of them have been in service for years on California's fleet. They're simple enough that a passenger who's never ridden Amtrak before can figure them out in only a moment or two.

Call me skeptical.


----------



## hastybob

Train 98 has 4 more going north today. 3 are on head end behind a deadhead coach and the other one behind the baggage car on the rear.


----------



## PerRock

Blackwolf said:


> Just how much training does a train crew need for a _baggage car?_ Its a hollow stainlesst steel tube with wheels.
> 
> The shelves are not a new idea, just a new feature for a new car. Same with the bike racks. Both of them have been in service for years on California's fleet. They're simple enough that a passenger who's never ridden Amtrak before can figure them out in only a moment or two.
> 
> Call me skeptical.


I believe the training is more Maintenance training then loading & unloading training.

The cars have a little more then just a hollow shell & shelves. The shelves fold up (and I think become the bike racks) so there is maintenance there, they have some rudimentary climate control, there are lights bulbs that need to be replacing (more how do you access the bulbs, then how to screw them in). Crews need to be trained in the bigger maintenance of the cars at the various shops (fixing locked breaks, patching air hoses, etc) as well as quick-fix on the road maintenance.

peter


----------



## NE933

PerRock said:


> "... there are lights bulbs that need to be replacing (more how do you access the bulbs, then how to screw them in..."
> 
> peter


I pray that things have not gotten so bad that screwing in light bulbs in a new Amtrak car does not require training, other than saftey basics like where to put the ladder.


----------



## Ryan

It doesn't, and he didn't say that it did.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PerRock said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just how much training does a train crew need for a _baggage car?_ Its a hollow stainlesst steel tube with wheels.
> 
> The shelves are not a new idea, just a new feature for a new car. Same with the bike racks. Both of them have been in service for years on California's fleet. They're simple enough that a passenger who's never ridden Amtrak before can figure them out in only a moment or two.
> 
> Call me skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the training is more Maintenance training then loading & unloading training.
> 
> The cars have a little more then just a hollow shell & shelves. The shelves fold up (and I think become the bike racks) so there is maintenance there, they have some rudimentary climate control, there are lights bulbs that need to be replacing (more how do you access the bulbs, then how to screw them in). Crews need to be trained in the bigger maintenance of the cars at the various shops (fixing locked breaks, patching air hoses, etc) as well as quick-fix on the road maintenance.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...


Absolutely. They may not have seats, but aside from direct HVAC control, they may have all of the same operating components and safety systems as the rest of the passenger fleet. This includes six 480volt cables of electricity running through them. The mechanical department and contractors at outlying points must know how to take these cars apart and put them back together within tolerance of initial terminal rules (allowable tread depth, piston travel{if there are pistons] etc.) Indeed, the FRA added one more restriction g to this car which I won't discuss, but I'm sure someone will eventually spill.

The field personnel must know how to troubleshoot, repair and or cut out/bypass the appropriate portions of the brake and electrical systems. Tolerances must be established to determine how much can be cut out. Such questions include what kind of detection systems exist on this 125 mph vehicle. What kind of truck support systems exist and how do you adjust them en route? Do these cars have bearing systems? On board? Outboard? Disk brakes? A combination of tread and disk? Can you cut out a single truck, a single axle or do you cut out the whole control valve and lose the car? Most importantly, where are all of these cut outs located? How many main res tanks are on these cars and how do you bypass them in field?

This isn't a matter of opening and closing doors...which they will train you on for the sake of liability. This standard operating procedure for railroads. This way, if someone pinches their fingers, the company can say there were trained not to do so.

It's called CYA!


----------



## Ziv

"Rudimentary climate control"?

How rudimentary? Are the new baggage cars going to be warm enough in the winter and cool enough in the summer to allow for animals in crates? Of course service animals get to ride in 'first class'.

;-)



PerRock said:


> I believe the training is more Maintenance training then loading & unloading training.
> 
> ... they have some rudimentary climate control, ...
> 
> peter


----------



## jis

No A/C. Only roof exhaust fans for summer. Wall mounted heating coils to create some bit of warmth in the winter, but nothing really suitable for someone to ride in that car.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> No A/C. Only roof exhaust fans for summer. Wall mounted heating coils to create some bit of warmth in the winter, but nothing really suitable for someone to ride in that car.


The wall units are supposed to heat up to 50 degrees.

I know the answer is costs, but this always bothered me. It is a new car. I just don't see why no one went for the gusto and equipped them with full HVAC. It would have been a great place to transport pets. Well, someone who makes a lot more than us looked at the costs decided it wasn't worth it. ^_^

At any rate, 97(4) will have two returning to Hialeah. If testing goes well, revenue service has to be right around the corner.


----------



## StriderGDM

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> No A/C. Only roof exhaust fans for summer. Wall mounted heating coils to create some bit of warmth in the winter, but nothing really suitable for someone to ride in that car.
> 
> 
> 
> The wall units are supposed to heat up to 50 degrees.
> 
> I know the answer is costs, but this always bothered me. It is a new car. I just don't see why no one went for the gusto and equipped them with full HVAC. It would have been a great place to transport pets. Well, someone who makes a lot more than us looked at the costs decided it wasn't worth it. ^_^
> 
> At any rate, 97(4) will have two returning to Hialeah. If testing goes well, revenue service has to be right around the corner.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and then who becomes responsible for the pets when they're transported in their?

I suspect it's more than simply cost but also a way to avoid future issues by simply making it impossible to do.


----------



## MARC Rider

I saw one of the new baggage cars on the lower level platform at WUS.

As a bonus, while I was waiting for my train to leave, I got to see 97 roll in across the platform. By the way, they don't chase people out of the diner when the train gets into Washington, I saw people continue to eat their dinner by the backup lights, even after the train went dark during the engine change.


----------



## Guest

Blackwolf said:


> Just how much training does a train crew need for a _baggage car?_ Its a hollow stainlesst steel tube with wheels.
> 
> The shelves are not a new idea, just a new feature for a new car. Same with the bike racks. Both of them have been in service for years on California's fleet. They're simple enough that a passenger who's never ridden Amtrak before can figure them out in only a moment or two.
> 
> Call me skeptical.


The truth is as I stated it. I don't know the length of the training. The train crews will recieve training. That is an absolute fact! Right now they have the trainers in training. Maybe there are shelves or bike racks like those in the car in California but crews on the NEC have not seen anything like those. I looked at the car parked on the block of 20 track today and it was all unfamiliar inside. Also the baggage doors are not like we those have seen before. That you are skeptical shows only you know nothing.


----------



## Ryan

Agreed, the idea that one can just roll out completely new cars without giving the crews that are entrusted to operate them is ridiculous.


----------



## NewCars

Four more baggage cars heading to WAS on 98 today.


----------



## lo2e

NewCars said:


> Four more baggage cars heading to WAS on 98 today.



There's a YouTube video of 98(3) with three new ones.

Full consist:

Heritage Unit 156

Engine 112

Amfleet Coach

3 New Baggage Cars

3 Amfleet Coaches

Cafe

Heritage Diner

3 Viewliner Sleepers

Heritage Baggage


----------



## VentureForth

If they are going BACK up North, why aren't at least the Silvers already using the baggage cars and ditching the heritage?


----------



## OB1

VentureForth said:


> If they are going BACK up North, why aren't at least the Silvers already using the baggage cars and ditching the heritage?


These aren't the droids, ah baggage cars, you're looking for.

I guess Amtrak could have assigned the first 4 baggage cars that are ready for service, to the Silvers, but that would have made sense. Since when did Amtrak make decisions that made sense?


----------



## Ryan

Yes, because putting them in service before everyone has an opportunity to be trained on them is a _lovely_ idea.


----------



## VentureForth

So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?

But of course, Amtrak isn't known for wasting and the billion dollars of pittance they get annually on top of the fare box.

Operationally, the training should be minimal. Unlatch here. Put this here. Hold this here. From a maintenance standpoint, are the differences in the trucks and electrical that significant from the VLI's?

Does every aircraft mechanic have to be trained on a particular aircraft before it enters revenue service? That's where manuals and experience come in.

Obviously they aren't ready for revenue yet. Is it the cars themselves? Is it the certification? Is it the crew? Is it the weather? Is it the paint job?


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?


To conduct the training. There was a detailed explanation of what went into the training on the previous page. You could read that and understand it, and spare us the ZOMG TAXPAYER WASTE crap yet again.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?


I think they are moving the cars around just to irritate you so that you can hyperventilate on AU.  
I mean come on.... for each ACS that is being put into service they are being put through a test run to and fro over the entire NEC before any revenue service. If they happen to be doing that with the baggage cars, why is it such a huge worry? Running a few baggage cars tacked onto a regular service train up and down between Florida and New York for proving in and incidentally positioning them at strategic locations for training is going to have close to zero material effect on Amtrak's finances. Sheesh!


----------



## CHamilton

jis said:


> I think they are moving the cars around just to irritate you so that you can hyperventilate on AU.


Hey, hyperventilating on AU is fun!


----------



## StriderGDM

VentureForth said:


> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?


Because all the folks to be trained are in the North, and the Mid-west and the west.

What's the alternative, shuttle all those folks to Florida? Then you'd be complaining how they're shuttle people all over the country for training.


----------



## Guest

jis said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?
> 
> 
> 
> I think they are moving the cars around just to irritate you so that you can hyperventilate on AU.
> I mean come on.... for each ACS that is being put into service they are being put through a test run to and fro over the entire NEC before any revenue service. If they happen to be doing that with the baggage cars, why is it such a huge worry? Running a few baggage cars tacked onto a regular service train up and down between Florida and New York for proving in and incidentally positioning them at strategic locations for training is going to have close to zero material effect on Amtrak's finances. Sheesh!
Click to expand...

They do have to be test run before they are put in service.

Also I have heard, and this part is only a rumor, that when they put them in a train consist there were problems with the brakes, braking issues. I think that is resolved and the training will begin.


----------



## NE933

Did the braking issue surface during the night time 125mph Corridor tests, or when they moved them en mass to Hialeah in December? Or some other time?


----------



## mgl1978

I did some spotting today 3/4/2015 at RO.

The first video has #85 and #90 pass each other. #85 has new baggage on the rear.


----------



## afigg

A post on trainorders states that baggage car #61011 will be on Capitol Limited #29 departing WAS March 5 for a deadhead move to Chicago for training. If so, this may be the first of the new baggage cars to make its way westward.


----------



## neroden

Hmmm, so lessee. They've probably trained everyone at Miami already. Looks like they're going to be training in DC, NY, and Chicago simultaneously. (And maybe Boston too?) Hopefully we'll see a comprehensive east coast deployment ASAP. (The benefits to the slow-running trains west of Chicago are less, so I'd expect the east coast to get them first.)

Here's a question, though I think I've guessed the answer. What do they do about training engineers and conductors who report to miscellaneous crew bases? (Such as Toledo, Buffalo, Syracuse, etc.) You can't move the baggage car to them; nowhere to park it. Do they have to take a trip to Miami, DC or NY for training?


----------



## Ryan

I saw somewhere on Facebook that one was getting dropped in Charlotte and Raleigh, so it sounds like they really try to get them out there.


----------



## MattW

I understand Charlotte since the Carolinian terminates there, but why Raleigh? The Piedmonts aren't getting one are they?


----------



## Amfleeter

MattW said:


> I understand Charlotte since the Carolinian terminates there, but why Raleigh? The Piedmonts aren't getting one are they?


The Silver Star and the Carolinian both stop at Raleigh, along with the Piedmonts. It's a decent station, by numbers of trains, plus a terminus for one.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I can take care of most of this at once:



neroden said:


> Hmmm, so lessee. They've probably trained everyone at Miami already. Looks like they're going to be training in DC, NY, and Chicago simultaneously. (And maybe Boston too?) Hopefully we'll see a comprehensive east coast deployment ASAP. (The benefits to the slow-running trains west of Chicago are less, so I'd expect the east coast to get them first.)
> 
> Here's a question, though I think I've guessed the answer. What do they do about training engineers and conductors who report to miscellaneous crew bases? (Such as Toledo, Buffalo, Syracuse, etc.) You can't move the baggage car to them; nowhere to park it. Do they have to take a trip to Miami, DC or NY for training?





MattW said:


> I understand Charlotte since the Carolinian terminates there, but why Raleigh? The Piedmonts aren't getting one are they?





Amfleeter said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> I understand Charlotte since the Carolinian terminates there, but why Raleigh? The Piedmonts aren't getting one are they?
> 
> 
> 
> The Silver Star and the Carolinian both stop at Raleigh, along with the Piedmonts. It's a decent station, by numbers of trains, plus a terminus for one.
Click to expand...

MATTW: the answer to RGH lies in Neroden's question. They are not only positioning cars for training at mechanical facilities (BOS, NYP, WAS ,NOL, CHI as examples) and turn around points (CLT, NPN ,RVR, SAV as examples), they are trying to position the cars at actual crew bases for maximum crew exposure (NHV,PHL,JAX,RGH,MEI as examples.)

So, as you can see Neroden, the plan is quite comprehensive and already in play.

The next wave from the factory is just around corner (weather permitting) and once those cars are done in Halieah, they may be used for west training because this batch is headed for revenue service.


----------



## battalion51

Think about crew bases, not necessarily Mechanincal points. Yes, Mechanical needs to be trained at the outlying points, but Conductors need to be trained too. At some crew bases like MEI, JAX, RGH, TOL, ALB, etc. you've got dozens of Conductors to train, and it will take a week or two to get everyone done since you can't just pull everyone in at one time.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> MATTW: the answer to RGH lies in Neroden's question. They are not only positioning cars for training at mechanical facilities (BOS, NYP, WAS ,NOL, CHI as examples) and turn around points (CLT, NPN ,RVR, SAV as examples), they are trying to position the cars at actual crew bases for maximum crew exposure (NHV,PHL,JAX,RGH,MEI as examples.)
> 
> So, as you can see Neroden, the plan is quite comprehensive and already in play.


Thank you! Neat!
It makes obvious sense to put one at PHL... but I didn't think there was anywhere to park a spare car at Raleigh. Or Charlotte. That must have required negotiation with NS in both cases.

Toledo has ample space to park a car, and Indianapolis does. Does Pittsburgh? For Buffalo NY or Huntington WV I guess CSX would need to cooperate. Which I guess they are doing, because Richmond would require CSX's cooperation.

I keep thinking that there must be some crew reporting points where there is simply no space... Atlanta?

This must have required a lot of discussion with NS and CSX to be able to park the cars at these locations where Amtrak doesn't own its own yards!



> The next wave from the factory is just around corner (weather permitting) and once those cars are done in Halieah, they may be used for west training because this batch is headed for revenue service.


----------



## Ryan

Doesn't have to be right at the station, just somewhere nearby. ATL has the track where the equipment can lay over if service is cancelled south of there. Probably a pain to get in to, and can't be used all the time, but for something occasional like this they can make it work.


----------



## Guest

VentureForth said:


> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?


OK, what exactly does the regular Amtrak people (porters? red caps?) need to be trained for, for Viewliner baggage cars? I mean, isn't it basically (1) walk thru door, (2) stack luggage on floor, (3) walk back out door. Not all that much different from a Heritage baggage car?


----------



## jis

Given how they are being positioned, it would appear that it is the T&E crew that they are targeting. I suppose the OBS crew gets training too but that does not require positioning cars at division points for training.


----------



## Ryan

Quoted for enhanced reading comprehension.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Absolutely. They may not have seats, but aside from direct HVAC control, they may have all of the same operating components and safety systems as the rest of the passenger fleet. This includes six 480volt cables of electricity running through them. The mechanical department and contractors at outlying points must know how to take these cars apart and put them back together within tolerance of initial terminal rules (allowable tread depth, piston travel{if there are pistons] etc.) Indeed, the FRA added one more restriction g to this car which I won't discuss, but I'm sure someone will eventually spill.
> 
> The field personnel must know how to troubleshoot, repair and or cut out/bypass the appropriate portions of the brake and electrical systems. Tolerances must be established to determine how much can be cut out. Such questions include what kind of detection systems exist on this 125 mph vehicle. What kind of truck support systems exist and how do you adjust them en route? Do these cars have bearing systems? On board? Outboard? Disk brakes? A combination of tread and disk? Can you cut out a single truck, a single axle or do you cut out the whole control valve and lose the car? Most importantly, where are all of these cut outs located? How many main res tanks are on these cars and how do you bypass them in field?
> 
> This isn't a matter of opening and closing doors...which they will train you on for the sake of liability. This standard operating procedure for railroads. This way, if someone pinches their fingers, the company can say there were trained not to do so.
> 
> It's called CYA!


----------



## jis

You mean it takes more effort to put a car in service than it takes for me to buy a Bachmann or Walthers model and get it into service on my HO setup? Shocking! Absolutely shocking! 

Notice for the humorously impaired.... this is a joke.


----------



## R30A

Atlanta also isn't a crewbase. I would think that the Conductors are the crewmembers in need of training, not the Engineers. 
The conductor bases in 2006 according to Trains Magazine are as follows:
(On corridors where it isn't clear which base covers what train, I will list the potentials. Richmond through NY I will consider "NEC" for simplicity)
Sunset- Los Angeles, El Paso, San Antonio, New Orleans
SW Chief- Los Angeles, Albuquerque, La Junta, Kansas City, Chicago
Zephyr- Oakland, Sparks, Salt Lake, Denver, Chicago

Builder- (Portland), Seattle, Shelby, St. Cloud, Chicago
Starlight- (Los Angeles or San Luis Obispo), Sacramento, Portland, (Possibly Seattle)
Crescent- Meridian, Charlotte, NEC
Eagle- San Antonio, Fort Worth, Little Rock, Chicago
Capitol- Toledo, Washington

Lake Shore- Toledo, Albany
Cardinal- Indianapolis, Huntington, NEC
City of NOL- New Orleans, Carbondale (Possibly Chicago)
Carolinian- Raleigh, NEC
Palmetto- Florence, NEC
Silver Star- Miami, Jacksonville, Raleigh, NEC
Silver Meteor- Jacksonville, (Possibly Florence), NEC
Regional- Richmond, Washington, Philadelphia, New York, New Haven, Boston

Other possible routes
Pennsylvanian- Harrisburg, NEC
Vermonter- NEC, Springfield
Adirondack, Ethan Allen, and Maple Leaf- Albany


----------



## jis

For NEC spine Regionals isn't it just: WAS, NYP, NHV, BOS?

For LDs on the NEC spine too it is just: WAS, NYP. They are pretty much treated as NEC trains.

And for Acelas it is: WAS, NYP, BOS.

Keystones have PHL as a crew base AFAIR.


----------



## neroden

You have definitely not listed all the crew bases. Specifically, there are additional engineer reporting points. Toledo-Albany can't be done in one go, for example, and a fragment of a more recent map I've seen shows Buffalo as a crew base:

http://trn.trains.com/railroads/railroad-maps/2014/05/amtrak-crew-districts


----------



## R30A

Buffalo is an engineer base, not a Conductor base. I doubt (but fully accept that I could be entirely incorrect) that the Engineers have much if any specific training with baggage cars. 
The lake shore for example, has a Toledo crew from Chicago to Toledo, Toledo conductors from Toledo to Buffalo, Albany conductors from Buffalo to Albany, and full Albany crews from Albany to NYP and BOS. So while there are 5 crews worth of conductors on the Lake shore, they are out of two bases.


----------



## neroden

Ah, I see. Now, it's interesting to note that there is *no way* to park a car at Florence. Which probably explains the placement of a car at Savannah instead.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?
> 
> 
> 
> OK, what exactly does the regular Amtrak people (porters? red caps?) need to be trained for, for Viewliner baggage cars? I mean, isn't it basically (1) walk thru door, (2) stack luggage on floor, (3) walk back out door. Not all that much different from a Heritage baggage car?
Click to expand...

Station personnel will receive training since they help load/unload the car in the stations.. Whether you realize it or not, a lot of the baggage cars have loading plans. The luggage isn't just randomly thrown in the car.

Usually. ^_^

Besides, this car is not like a heritage. It has racks, shelves, areas for pallets/express plus a secure storage area. Once everyone is familiar with the amenities, feedback from the field will help establish a loading plan to minimize station dwell time.

I haven't heard an overall plan to familiarize engineers with the nuances of the bags but I suppose that can vary by division.



neroden said:


> Ah, I see. Now, it's interesting to note that there is *no way* to park a car at Florence. Which probably explains the placement of a car at Savannah instead.


Unless something dramatic occurs, FLO will receive a bag.


----------



## Guest

Guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?
> 
> 
> 
> OK, what exactly does the regular Amtrak people (porters? red caps?) need to be trained for, for Viewliner baggage cars? I mean, isn't it basically (1) walk thru door, (2) stack luggage on floor, (3) walk back out door. Not all that much different from a Heritage baggage car?
Click to expand...

It is completely different! I was able to be inside a Viewliner Baggage car today and there is no way I could or would work that car without training. There are racks and shelves, all kinds of latches and handles for moving them up and down. I am sure someone could get hurt without training. The door latches are not simple either.


----------



## Guest

Guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So EVERYONE has to be trained? If EVERYONE hasn't been trained, why are they moving the cars back North?
> 
> 
> 
> OK, what exactly does the regular Amtrak people (porters? red caps?) need to be trained for, for Viewliner baggage cars? I mean, isn't it basically (1) walk thru door, (2) stack luggage on floor, (3) walk back out door. Not all that much different from a Heritage baggage car?
Click to expand...


Are you trolling? It is peculiar that you would post such a completely erroneous statement if you were on the up and up.


----------



## NTL1991

Station Services employees will need some sort of training on the new baggage cars. It will definitely be nice to see standardization, even just the door setup alone for us on the NEC. 1700 with roll doors (which in Winter means brushing snow off the baggage tags to see where the thing is heading) or 1200 with the sliding doors that are quite physically demanding to open without adding snow and ice to the mix. In either case working the baggage car means taking a flashlight with you to search every corner of the car because neither of the two or three ceiling-mounted light fixtures have working bulbs. Even if they do have working blubs the fixtures are so covered with dirt and grime no light shines through. Dark bags blend in with the color of the horrendously filthy walls and floors.

When you've actually worked inside these cars you really learn to appreciate how bright and organized the new ones are. You can appreciate the double doors that seal properly, preventing snow ingress and the puddle lighting above each door that illuminates the platform. Bike racks that will mean the end to bike boxes forever. Not having to lend passengers tools to fold the handlebars in. Shelving that will help conductors and baggemen organize where baggage and express shipments are grouped. Being able to keep the stuff off the floor if you need too.

And add to this eBaggage which is in the works. Being able to print baggage tags for each and every bag and cross referencing it with each passenger's reservation. Being able to track where and when the bags are loaded and offloaded. It will make it much easier to see where carry-by bags have ended up down the line. Being able to pull up train 66 in the morning to see how many bags I'm expecting, knowing if I need to bring one baggage float or two, or knowing I'll need that pallet jack and plate to receive an express shipment. It's a lot better to know in advance instead of sliding that baggage door open to find two pallets waiting for you, and that pallet jack is upstairs in the baggage room... Not all Conductors are friendly enough to let you know in advance.

Lots of changes coming down the line, but they look good to me.


----------



## dlagrua

Much good info here but the question is when do we see the start of the Viewliner Diners being deployed?. New baggage cars replacing the old well used heritage stuff is great but the diners on the single level trains are ancient. Some date to the 1950's and 1960's and on the Cardinal they use a café car for the "diner lite".

When we rode the Crescent two years ago to NOL, the diner that was on the consist was the original one used by the Southern Railroad on that route. You could still see traces of the Southern RR markings on the side of the car. We have a trip in August to Denver on the Zephyr but beginning on the Cardinal. We hope to see a new Viewliner diner on it but we are not holding our breath. While the Cardinal café car diner lite that we dined in last June served acceptable meals (thanks to Craig, the fantastic chef/server) it would be nice have a full service dining car on that route.


----------



## NTL1991

Viewliner II Baggage Car 61027 deadheaded to Boston on 66 this morning for training.


----------



## jis

dlagrua said:


> Much good info here but the question is when do we see the start of the Viewliner Diners being deployed?.


At the rate things are going not before very late 2015 or early 2016.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Unless something dramatic occurs, FLO will receive a bag.


Boy, the freight railroads must be feeling really cooperative with their yard space. Uncharacteristic of them.


----------



## battalion51

Don't forget that at least for a few weeks 90 has been originating in FLO several days a week due to track work. I would suspect they should be able to park the Viewliner wherever they've been servicing the Palmetto.


----------



## afigg

dlagrua said:


> When we rode the Crescent two years ago to NOL, the diner that was on the consist was the original one used by the Southern Railroad on that route. You could still see traces of the Southern RR markings on the side of the car. We have a trip in August to Denver on the Zephyr but beginning on the Cardinal. We hope to see a new Viewliner diner on it but we are not holding our breath. While the Cardinal café car diner lite that we dined in last June served acceptable meals (thanks to Craig, the fantastic chef/server) it would be nice have a full service dining car on that route.


The Cardinal is likely to be the last single level LD train to get one of new diner cars. Until there is enough equipment to permanantly assign 2 sleeper cars and realistically a bag-dorm car as well, not going to make any sense to add a full service diner car if the staff for the diner car takes up most of the roomettes in the 1 sleeper car. Which means, that assuming the Cardinal does eventually get a full service diner car, it won't happen until after the bag-dorms and at least some of the new sleeper cars enter revenue service.

As for when the new diner cars might enter revenue service on any train, at the current pace, it is likely to be no earlier than late 2015. The good news is that if the recent post on the equipment move from Elmira is accurate, 10 more baggage cars are being handed over to Amtrak this week for a total of 38 delivered baggage cars. Which is more than one-half of the 70 baggage cars ordered (after the order change).


----------



## tommylicious

Why do we care about new baggage cars? We don't ride or eat in them!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> Why do we care about new baggage cars? We don't ride or eat in them!


For one, they will allow the LD trains to travel on the NEC a lot faster, I think. Plus, fewer breakdowns (the current ones are old) means less delays. And, because the new ones have a better seal on the doors, you luggage won't get snowed or rained on.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do we care about new baggage cars? We don't ride or eat in them!
> 
> 
> 
> For one, they will allow the LD trains to travel on the NEC a lot faster, I think.
Click to expand...

If you consider 15mph "a lot", then yeah


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do we care about new baggage cars? We don't ride or eat in them!
> 
> 
> 
> For one, they will allow the LD trains to travel on the NEC a lot faster, I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you consider 15mph "a lot", then yeah
Click to expand...

Well, I wasn't sure of the numbers and thought it might not be that much faster after all. But in this "in a hurry" society....


----------



## pvd

I don't ride or eat in the diesel or electric either, I sure care about them. The old cars are a maintenance dollar and time headache, the new cars offer the opportunity for better service since they have shelves and bike racks. Unboxed bikes might prove pretty popular, and may be a driving force towards expanded baggage service. If state politicians think it makes them look good and might garner votes, they may be willing to pony up for baggage on some state supported routes.


----------



## PaulM

pvd said:


> ... the new cars offer the opportunity for better service since they have shelves and bike racks. Unboxed bikes might prove pretty popular, and may be a driving force towards expanded baggage service.


You beat me to it. But the real question is will Amtrak pull a CAF and take 5 year to figure out how to load bikes onto the racks.


----------



## William W.

tommylicious said:


> Why do we care about new baggage cars? We don't ride or eat in them!


The heritage baggage cars are literally falling apart (the oldest are 1940s vintage), and will sooner rather than later become unsafe to operate. In addition, newer cars (theoretically) mean fewer breakdowns and higher speeds.


----------



## neroden

Unboxed bikes on Eastern services are a big deal for a lot of people.

Baggage car doors which close properly are a bigger deal for more people!


----------



## William W.

New baggage cars won't have snowdrifts in them...


----------



## StriderGDM

The 15mph may not seem like much, but what it does allow is easier scheduling of train slots. That can help performance and scheduling of all train.

And yes, the reduced maintenance.

And ideally yes, unboxed bikes could be a huge win. I'm certainly considering taking advantage of that.

POSSIBLY given the numbers a couple more routes with baggage cars.

All around, a higher, better level of service.


----------



## Acela150

tommylicious said:


> Why do we care about new baggage cars? We don't ride or eat in them!


Then why do we care about New Electric Locomotives? We don't ride in them or eat in them as well.. Maybe the simple answer.. Nothing lasts forever. I mean the Heritage Diner's and Bags are 60 years old!


----------



## neroden

The oldest Heritage baggage car is from 1948. The newest is from 1961, but is a converted coach -- these didn't hold up well under the weight of baggage and are damaged as a result. There are only 25 Heritage baggage cars remaining in service which were built as baggage cars. Most of these are from 1953, with some from 1955 or 1957. There were some newer ones, but they were built by companies other than Budd so they fell apart earlier.

The remaining Heritage baggage cars are all well overdue for retirement.


----------



## oldtimer

neroden said:


> The oldest Heritage baggage car is from 1948. The newest is from 1961, but is a converted coach -- these didn't hold up well under the weight of baggage and are damaged as a result. There are only 25 Heritage baggage cars remaining in service which were built as baggage cars. Most of these are from 1953, with some from 1955 or 1957. There were some newer ones, but they were built by companies other than Budd so they fell apart earlier.
> 
> The remaining Heritage baggage cars are all well overdue for retirement.


The wreck in North Carolina took out another heritage coach converted to baggage service, with the failure record of these types of cars I would think this one is destined for the scrapper!


----------



## battalion51

StriderGDM said:


> The 15mph may not seem like much, but what it does allow is easier scheduling of train slots. That can help performance and scheduling of all train.
> 
> And yes, the reduced maintenance.
> 
> And ideally yes, unboxed bikes could be a huge win. I'm certainly considering taking advantage of that.
> 
> POSSIBLY given the numbers a couple more routes with baggage cars.
> 
> All around, a higher, better level of service.


For trains like the Carolinian, Palmetto, 65/66/67, it could mean shorter travel times on the Northeast Corridor once the full fleet is deployed. It will be awhile before the benefits are able to be felt on long distance trains since the Viewliner Is are only rated for 110. I don't know what it would take to get them upgraded to handle 125, or if that's even in the plans.


----------



## jis

The Carolinian from NYP to WAS does it in 3:20. Regionals with a few more stops but with no baggage to handle do it in 3:25. Running the Carolinian any faster will just screw up the Class B slots, that's all. I suspect we will just see improved OTP by a bit in the same schedule. Same is mnore or less true of the Palmetto.

65/66/67 schedule is mostly about making it a convenient arrival and departure time out of/into BOS and WAS. Don;t see any reason at all to speed it up. Besides its schedule will always be kept suitable for diesel 110mph operations substantial part of the way so that the catenary can be taken out of operation for servicing at night.

LD's have lots of padding on the NEC because they also have lower priority than all the Corridor trains on the NEC. That is not changing. So I don't see anything more than some token shortening of runtime by maybe 5-10 mins at most. Their arrival and departure times are determined more my slots availability at NYP, CSX's ability to accept them south of WAS than any other factors AFAICT.


----------



## StriderGDM

battalion51 said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 15mph may not seem like much, but what it does allow is easier scheduling of train slots. That can help performance and scheduling of all train.
> 
> And yes, the reduced maintenance.
> 
> And ideally yes, unboxed bikes could be a huge win. I'm certainly considering taking advantage of that.
> 
> POSSIBLY given the numbers a couple more routes with baggage cars.
> 
> All around, a higher, better level of service.
> 
> 
> 
> For trains like the Carolinian, Palmetto, 65/66/67, it could mean shorter travel times on the Northeast Corridor once the full fleet is deployed. It will be awhile before the benefits are able to be felt on long distance trains since the Viewliner Is are only rated for 110. I don't know what it would take to get them upgraded to handle 125, or if that's even in the plans.
Click to expand...

It is in the plans.


----------



## neroden

Now that I can't use the dining cars (thank you Amtrak gross incompetence), I no longer really care whether they're replaced. If Amtrak can't be bothered to operate the dining car service competently, they aren't going to find much use for dining cars. 

Still looking forward to the baggage cars and sleeping cars.


----------



## Celebrissmus

neroden said:


> Now that I can't use the dining cars (thank you Amtrak gross incompetence), I no longer really care whether they're replaced. If Amtrak can't be bothered to operate the dining car service competently, they aren't going to find much use for dining cars.
> 
> Still looking forward to the baggage cars and dining cars.


Why can't you use the dining cars? Hundreds do every day.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Celebrissmus said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I can't use the dining cars (thank you Amtrak gross incompetence), I no longer really care whether they're replaced. If Amtrak can't be bothered to operate the dining car service competently, they aren't going to find much use for dining cars.
> 
> Still looking forward to the baggage cars and dining cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't you use the dining cars? Hundreds do every day.
Click to expand...

Ever hear of food allergies?


----------



## west point

For those trains that only have the V-2 baggage or baggage dorm they will be able to do 125. That does not sound like much but any following 125 capable train ( read Acela, NE regional ) will not be slowed as well. That improves the measurement called fluidity.

Now until the heritage diners are replaced and the V-1s are upgraded to 125 do not expect the LD trains to go over 110MPH.

Once the short baggage cars ( 90 MPH limit ) are all taken off eastern trains the LD will at least LD will be able to go 110. Remember that NYP - Albany is set to have 110 MPH sections as well.


----------



## jis

Amtrak currently does not operate any baggage car that is limited to 90mph on regular passenger service.


----------



## Celebrissimus

AmtrakBlue said:


> Celebrissmus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I can't use the dining cars (thank you Amtrak gross incompetence), I no longer really care whether they're replaced. If Amtrak can't be bothered to operate the dining car service competently, they aren't going to find much use for dining cars.
> 
> Still looking forward to the baggage cars and dining cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't you use the dining cars? Hundreds do every day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ever hear of food allergies?
Click to expand...




AmtrakBlue said:


> Celebrissmus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I can't use the dining cars (thank you Amtrak gross incompetence), I no longer really care whether they're replaced. If Amtrak can't be bothered to operate the dining car service competently, they aren't going to find much use for dining cars.
> 
> Still looking forward to the baggage cars and dining cars.
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't you use the dining cars? Hundreds do every day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ever hear of food allergies?
Click to expand...

Why is that "gross incompetence" on the part of Amtrak? Not every restaurant can account for everyone's allergies.


----------



## Ryan

It's not that they can't account for it, they're incapable of telling him if the foods served in the dining car have the particular item he's allergic to.

It's unrealistic to expect the dining car to stock sufficient variety of food to have something available for everyone with a food allergy to eat.

It's completely realistic to expect the dining car to know what ingredients are in the food that they're serving so that people with allergies can make an educated decision on what to eat and not eat.


----------



## StriderGDM

west point said:


> Remember that NYP - Albany is set to have 110 MPH sections as well.


NYP-ALB already has 110 MPH sections.

But right now the only train that has a baggage car that plies that route is the LSL.


----------



## edjbox

If the Carolinian, palmetto, or 65-67 get the new baggage cars they are capable of running faster, particularly if they are running late


----------



## William W.

edjbox said:


> If the Carolinian, palmetto, or 65-67 get the new baggage cars they are capable of running faster, particularly if they are running late


The Carolinian and Palmetto should be towards the top of the list, but 66/67 doesn't need to run at full speed, so it can probably be among the last to receive one.


----------



## hessjm

I saw this gem in Chicago today.


----------



## neroden

It was sort of fun to receive my checked baggage covered in colored dirt from the states it had passed through, but I think it'll be a *lot* better to have baggage cars whose doors seal properly.


----------



## NewCars

10 more baggage cars being delivered from CAF to Miami this week, five each on 97(11) and 97(12).


----------



## ray828

61011 came in on the Capitol Limited. I saw it in the yard on the 8th. Was this baggage car on the back of the Lake Shore Limited? Pretty cool to see these finally coming further west. It will be interesting to see which trains get these first.


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak 97(11) comes through Odenton about 45 minutes late tonight with 5 new Viewliner II Bags on the tail end:


----------



## NE933

If we can get back to getting 15 car Silver Meteor or Stars again, I will post a selfie of me kissing the tracks. With a lookout, of course, to make sure no trains are coming.


----------



## NE933

I'd like to take a day off to see the next move from Elmira -> Penn Station on one of the Silver Meteor but need a bit more notice. Does anyone know the next batch after the one tomorrow of 5 cars?


----------



## Bus Nut

RyanS said:


> Amtrak 97(11) comes through Odenton about 45 minutes late tonight with 5 new Viewliner II Bags on the tail end:



That video was so awesome I had to watch it multiple times. ::drool::


----------



## Ryan

Thanks! My son actually shot it while I was taking pictures (that's my arm at the end), and did a heck of a job. Hopefully tonight's 97 is a little closer to on time so the light is better.


----------



## mgl1978

Here's train #97 with 5 viewliner baggages from Ivy city.


----------



## abcnews

Any word on the combo baggage/transdorm Viewliner cars? Will they be coming next?


----------



## R30A

By plan, the dining cars should be coming next, however we still have 32 baggage cars to come first. (Although it would probably be foolish to reject the possibility that there will be some overlap in delivery, especially with the first couple of each type to ensure modifications are as desired. )


----------



## chrsjrcj

According to the Florida Railfans Facebook group, one of the new baggage cars on 97-11 had a wheel issue and have been sidelined in Deland, Florida.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204430857197227


----------



## Ryan

Did 97(12) already leave with its string of 5?

Edit: Yep, posters on FB confirm the train is underway with its extra cargo.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

I got to see 97 with the 5 new baggage cars yesterday while I was waiting for the much-delayed (so what else is new?) NJ Transit at Princeton Junction. They look beautiful! Only time I can remember being grateful for my commuter train being so late--I would have missed them otherwise!


----------



## DryCreek

chrsjrcj said:


> According to the Florida Railfans Facebook group, one of the new baggage cars on 97-11 had a wheel issue and have been sidelined in Deland, Florida.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204430857197227


They don't seem to be very impressed with the new rolling stock, do they?


----------



## jis

DryCreek said:


> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Florida Railfans Facebook group, one of the new baggage cars on 97-11 had a wheel issue and have been sidelined in Deland, Florida.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204430857197227
> 
> 
> 
> They don't seem to be very impressed with the new rolling stock, do they?
Click to expand...

We are Floridians. You have to excuse us


----------



## Fan Railer

Video of today's (3/12) Viewliner II bag move at Trenton:


----------



## Caesar La Rock

jis said:


> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chrsjrcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Florida Railfans Facebook group, one of the new baggage cars on 97-11 had a wheel issue and have been sidelined in Deland, Florida.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204430857197227
> 
> 
> 
> They don't seem to be very impressed with the new rolling stock, do they?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We are Floridians. You have to excuse us
Click to expand...

I'm impressed, I guess I'm one of the few optimists in the state.


----------



## sitzplatz17

I'll offer my photo of the new Baggage car in CUS as well.


----------



## James Patten

Oh dear, it fell over.


----------



## Guest

chrsjrcj said:


> According to the Florida Railfans Facebook group, one of the new baggage cars on 97-11 had a wheel issue and have been sidelined in Deland, Florida.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204430857197227


Flat spots....


----------



## CCC1007

Who left the handbrake on?


----------



## Ryan

No train pictures tonight, a friend unexpectedly stopped by for dinner instead. I did finally process my pictures from last night:





More here:

http://photos.stavely.org/Trains/Viewliner-Baggage-Delivery


----------



## GregL

The new baggage cars look good! Are any going to be assigned to west/Midwest trains?


----------



## StriderGDM

GregL said:


> The new baggage cars look good! Are any going to be assigned to west/Midwest trains?


Any train that currently has a heritage baggage car will have it replaced, so I believe the answer is yes.


----------



## Bus Nut

Hey so now that these cars are being delivered does anybody know the timeline to replace the Heritage cars and do we know what trains will get a baggage car that don't have one?

I am nose-bleedingly excited about these cars and loving all the videos being posted. They look beautiful!


----------



## afigg

Bus Nut said:


> Hey so now that these cars are being delivered does anybody know the timeline to replace the Heritage cars and do we know what trains will get a baggage car that don't have one?
> 
> I am nose-bleedingly excited about these cars and loving all the videos being posted. They look beautiful!


As far as I know, there has been no public update from Amtrak on the deployment plan and schedule for the new baggage cars nor any official statements on which additional trains could get a baggage car. We have speculated on this a number of times and the most logical ones would be an additional daily Virginia Regional running to Boston, the Pennsylvanian (probably as part of the Capitol Limited pass-through cars), and if the Customs facility someday opens in Montreal, then after that on the Adirondack.


----------



## DryCreek

Maybe they'll even put canvas sling seats in the heritage baggage cars and sell reduced-fare steerage class passage? I'd hate to think that they would just scrap them.


----------



## Guest

Bus Nut said:


> Hey so now that these cars are being delivered does anybody know the timeline to replace the Heritage cars and do we know what trains will get a baggage car that don't have one?
> 
> I am nose-bleedingly excited about these cars and loving all the videos being posted. They look beautiful!


Beautiful is not enough. I have been hearing rumors about some issues. Like the racks can't be used since they won't hold the weight of many bags.


----------



## PerRock

Guest said:


> Bus Nut said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey so now that these cars are being delivered does anybody know the timeline to replace the Heritage cars and do we know what trains will get a baggage car that don't have one?
> 
> I am nose-bleedingly excited about these cars and loving all the videos being posted. They look beautiful!
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful is not enough. I have been hearing rumors about some issues. Like the racks can't be used since they won't hold the weight of many bags.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't heed much to that rumor. If it were true I highly doubt Amtrak would a) be accepting as many cars as they are from CAF at this point and b) they wouldn't be sending the cars out across the country for training. At this point it's training & then deployment. All the testing (like to see if the shelves can hold the weight) has been done & and issues that arised have been corrected.

peter


----------



## Bus Nut

Are they still ordering bag-dorms and would those come off the assembly line only after the baggage order is complete?


----------



## Ryan

Yes and yes (actually the last plan we heard was bags, diners, bag dorms then sleepers, which makes sense to clear out the Heritage fleet asap).


----------



## Guest

DryCreek said:


> Maybe they'll even put canvas sling seats in the heritage baggage cars and sell reduced-fare steerage class passage? I'd hate to think that they would just scrap them.


Sling seats? Put in full hammocks and sell them as slumber sleepers.


----------



## jis

I wonder where the bag dorms will be used. Cardinal and LSL Boston Section? In the case of the Boston Section, with the possibility of selling some accommodation?


----------



## MikefromCrete

DryCreek said:


> Maybe they'll even put canvas sling seats in the heritage baggage cars and sell reduced-fare steerage class passage? I'd hate to think that they would just scrap them.


Those baggage cars are 60 years old and have their wheels run off with millions of miles of service. There's no more life left in them.


----------



## StriderGDM

jis said:


> I wonder where the bag dorms will be used. Cardinal and LSL Boston Section? In the case of the Boston Section, with the possibility of selling some accommodation?


Probably Zero since the dorm section would be used by the entire crew, not just the Boston section is my guess.

Besides, I'm not sure the Boston section traffic would be enough to warrant more than the full existing sleeper.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> I wonder where the bag dorms will be used. Cardinal and LSL Boston Section? In the case of the Boston Section, with the possibility of selling some accommodation?


Maybe the Crescent also since the majority of the passengers ride overnight between NYP and ATL and the count drops off most of the year for the day trip between ATL and NOL?


----------



## jis

My guess is that LSL New York Section will get an additional Sleeper which will be used by the New York crew + regular passengers. It would be unusual to require the New York crew to pack their bag and baggage somewhere on the train without any accommodation until Albany. I don't think that will happen because that might be a violation of their contract.


----------



## R30A

I sort of suspect that the bag dorm will go to NYP while Boston gets the full baggage. If they keep organizing baggage like they do today (Boston used for intermediate and BOS baggage, NY used only for NYP baggage), I believe the Boston baggage car is the busier one anyway.


----------



## jis

R30A said:


> I sort of suspect that the bag dorm will go to NYP while Boston gets the full baggage. If they keep organizing baggage like they do today (Boston used for intermediate and BOS baggage, NY used only for NYP baggage), I believe the Boston baggage car is the busier one anyway.


That may very well be. That effectively would make the entire additional Sleeper available for revenue from NY, and no additional Sleeper capacity to BOS, which may reflect reality better. Good point!


----------



## Guest

PerRock said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bus Nut said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey so now that these cars are being delivered does anybody know the timeline to replace the Heritage cars and do we know what trains will get a baggage car that don't have one?
> 
> I am nose-bleedingly excited about these cars and loving all the videos being posted. They look beautiful!
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful is not enough. I have been hearing rumors about some issues. Like the racks can't be used since they won't hold the weight of many bags.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wouldn't heed much to that rumor. If it were true I highly doubt Amtrak would a) be accepting as many cars as they are from CAF at this point and b) they wouldn't be sending the cars out across the country for training. At this point it's training & then deployment. All the testing (like to see if the shelves can hold the weight) has been done & and issues that arised have been corrected.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

I would heed the rumor as it comes from more than one source. They are saying don't use the shelves. But we shall see.


----------



## neroden

Pffft. I'm sure the shelves can be used, with care. This is probably a "don't be an idiot" thing, with many of the employees being idiots (as usually happens in any organization, unfortunately). First note that you can't stack bags that high without the shelves (it's not safe for the bags on the bottom to pile up that many bags as the ones on the bottom can be crushed; plus, the piles can fall over).

Perhaps the shelves have a limit on how much can be put on them (maybe you can only put one or two bags on each shelf), but that's undoubtedly higher than the limit *without* using the shelves. I would believe a policy of "fill the area under the shelf before putting anything on the shelf", as a form of idiot-resistance. If you're going to work a train with heavy baggage loads, I'd advise getting the full story.


----------



## StriderGDM

I also highly doubt Amtrak would have accepted 30 or so bags with what I would consider a serious defect. They've shown their willingness to delay acceptance by about 2 years, so I can see them willing to be push back on this.

And don't believer every rumor you hear. I once had an Amtrak conductor tell me the likely solution to the Acela's being 4" too wide was they'd saw a strip out the middle and weld them back together.


----------



## jis

Yeah, I have found that Conductors are about the worst source for reliable information about almost anything, sometimes including what the rules are that they are supposed to be enforcing, unfortunately. 

The ultimate piece de resistance was a Conductor on the CONO out of Memphis that tried to tell me that the TSA requires him to check tickets off board the train. I read him the book and asked him if he could show me the TSA book that said so. That was a pretty short conversation. After that he avoided me for the rest of his duty.


----------



## Guest

StriderGDM said:


> I also highly doubt Amtrak would have accepted 30 or so bags with what I would consider a serious defect. They've shown their willingness to delay acceptance by about 2 years, so I can see them willing to be push back on this.
> 
> And don't believer every rumor you hear. I once had an Amtrak conductor tell me the likely solution to the Acela's being 4" too wide was they'd saw a strip out the middle and weld them back together.


I said they were rumors. Since I heard them from sources in two different departments I do give them some credence. From my own experience I find it plausible that Amtrak could be accepting the cars with such a defect. For one thing since the current cars don't have shelves, the cars could be put in service without needing the use of the shelves.

As far as the wide Acelas, those were accepted despite the extra width, they were still able to be used so that is not exactly an example that proves Amtrak would not accept equipment without defects....


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Guest said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> … I once had an Amtrak conductor tell me the likely solution to the Acela's being 4" too wide was they'd saw a strip out the middle and weld them back together.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the wide Acelas, those were accepted despite the extra width, they were still able to be used so that is not exactly an example that proves Amtrak would not accept equipment without defects....
Click to expand...

Were the Acelas really 4" too wide? I thought that the tracks were 4" too close. LOL.

But srsly, isn't the "too wide" thing only a problem on the MetroNorth segment roughly from the NY state line to New Haven?

(Let me admit I wasn't paying much attention to this way back when … )


----------



## Ryan

The Acela was exactly as wide as Amtrak asked for (which turns out to be 4" wider than Metro North would allow for a trainset that tilted).

The idea that Amtrak ordered a trainset, took delivery of it and someone realized "Hey, these are wider than the train we ordered" is somewhat silly.


----------



## PerRock

neroden said:


> Pffft. I'm sure the shelves can be used, with care. This is probably a "don't be an idiot" thing, with many of the employees being idiots (as usually happens in any organization, unfortunately). First note that you can't stack bags that high without the shelves (it's not safe for the bags on the bottom to pile up that many bags as the ones on the bottom can be crushed; plus, the piles can fall over).
> 
> Perhaps the shelves have a limit on how much can be put on them (maybe you can only put one or two bags on each shelf), but that's undoubtedly higher than the limit *without* using the shelves. I would believe a policy of "fill the area under the shelf before putting anything on the shelf", as a form of idiot-resistance. If you're going to work a train with heavy baggage loads, I'd advise getting the full story.


I could believe this, what shelving the current baggage cars have (and only some of them do/did) was solid big chunks of metal things that didn't move or do anything besides be piled with stuff. So these news ones, seeing as the fold up, probably have a much lower weight capacity.

I could also see the shittier/lazy baggage handlers deciding that they don't want to care about making sure they don't overload the shelves. So to them they are "defective" and won't be used.

peter


----------



## Guest

PerRock said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pffft. I'm sure the shelves can be used, with care. This is probably a "don't be an idiot" thing, with many of the employees being idiots (as usually happens in any organization, unfortunately). First note that you can't stack bags that high without the shelves (it's not safe for the bags on the bottom to pile up that many bags as the ones on the bottom can be crushed; plus, the piles can fall over).
> 
> Perhaps the shelves have a limit on how much can be put on them (maybe you can only put one or two bags on each shelf), but that's undoubtedly higher than the limit *without* using the shelves. I would believe a policy of "fill the area under the shelf before putting anything on the shelf", as a form of idiot-resistance. If you're going to work a train with heavy baggage loads, I'd advise getting the full story.
> 
> 
> 
> I could believe this, what shelving the current baggage cars have (and only some of them do/did) was solid big chunks of metal things that didn't move or do anything besides be piled with stuff. So these news ones, seeing as the fold up, probably have a much lower weight capacity.
> 
> I could also see the shittier/lazy baggage handlers deciding that they don't want to care about making sure they don't overload the shelves. So to them they are "defective" and won't be used.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

What I have heard is that the baggage department has been instructed not to use the shelves and that the train crews will be instructed not to use the sheves. However at this time pending training and written instructions I woud consider the above only to be rumors. I certainly would not attempt to use the shelves without training. Perhaps that is where the rumors come from, maybe they don't want the shelves used until everyone, station baggage handlers and train crew have been trained, and then they will use the shelves.


----------



## ScottRu

I haven't read this entire thread, so this may have been covered, but I am on #98, parked beside a new baggage car in Jacksonville (61009).

Looks gorgeous, but our SCA says all of them failed their test runs ("too long!"). Says most are already back for modification. 5 left in Florida will be returning soon.

Can this be true?


----------



## Guest

ScottRu said:


> I haven't read this entire thread, so this may have been covered, but I am on #98, parked beside a new baggage car in Jacksonville (61009).
> 
> Looks gorgeous, but our SCA says all of them failed their test runs ("too long!"). Says most are already back for modification. 5 left in Florida will be returning soon.
> 
> Can this be true?


The Viewliner cheerleaders on this board don't want to hear that!!! I have tried to tell people here circumspectly that there are issues with these cars but all they see is that they are beautiful.


----------



## Steve4031

Interior shots and exterior of one at Union station Chicago


----------



## StriderGDM

RyanS said:


> The Acela was exactly as wide as Amtrak asked for (which turns out to be 4" wider than Metro North would allow for a trainset that tilted).
> 
> The idea that Amtrak ordered a trainset, took delivery of it and someone realized "Hey, these are wider than the train we ordered" is somewhat silly.


Exactly.


----------



## MikefromCrete

ScottRu said:


> I haven't read this entire thread, so this may have been covered, but I am on #98, parked beside a new baggage car in Jacksonville (61009).
> 
> Looks gorgeous, but our SCA says all of them failed their test runs ("too long!"). Says most are already back for modification. 5 left in Florida will be returning soon.
> 
> Can this be true?


Never believe scuttlebut. The SCA probably doesn't know as much as you do. If they failed their test run why are they being shuttled to various locations around the country? Shouldn't they have been sent back to Elmira or repaired in place in Miami?


----------



## DryCreek

MikefromCrete said:


> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they'll even put canvas sling seats in the heritage baggage cars and sell reduced-fare steerage class passage? I'd hate to think that they would just scrap them.
> 
> 
> 
> Those baggage cars are 60 years old and have their wheels run off with millions of miles of service. There's no more life left in them.
Click to expand...

So, they'll end up on the Texas State Railroad then. Maybe they'll be converted to some time of lounge car or just used for carrying spare parts for when they do get a consist together and moving.


----------



## William W.

DryCreek said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they'll even put canvas sling seats in the heritage baggage cars and sell reduced-fare steerage class passage? I'd hate to think that they would just scrap them.
> 
> 
> 
> Those baggage cars are 60 years old and have their wheels run off with millions of miles of service. There's no more life left in them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, they'll end up on the Texas State Railroad then. Maybe they'll be converted to some time of lounge car or just used for carrying spare parts for when they do get a consist together and moving.
Click to expand...

I don't think that you understand the situation. Those baggage cars have literally been run into the ground. They are nearing the point of no longer being safe to operate. One or two might be kept as historical pieces, but the rest are headed for the scrapheap.


----------



## Me

R30A said:


> I sort of suspect that the bag dorm will go to NYP while Boston gets the full baggage. If they keep organizing baggage like they do today (Boston used for intermediate and BOS baggage, NY used only for NYP baggage), I believe the Boston baggage car is the busier one anyway.


Quite possible. There has been a new baggage car sitting at South Station for a couple days.


----------



## Guest

William W. said:


> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they'll even put canvas sling seats in the heritage baggage cars and sell reduced-fare steerage class passage? I'd hate to think that they would just scrap them.
> 
> 
> 
> Those baggage cars are 60 years old and have their wheels run off with millions of miles of service. There's no more life left in them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, they'll end up on the Texas State Railroad then. Maybe they'll be converted to some time of lounge car or just used for carrying spare parts for when they do get a consist together and moving.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think that you understand the situation. Those baggage cars have literally been run into the ground. They are nearing the point of no longer being safe to operate. One or two might be kept as historical pieces, but the rest are headed for the scrapheap.
Click to expand...

If anyone wants to spend money the Heritage baggage cars could be rebuilt. They could be theoretically converted to private cars or used on the Panama Canal Railroad or something like that. What is unsafe about them is the retrofitted roll up baggage doors. The non retofitted doors are better but since there are no replacement parts they are difficult to maintain in working order. And the poor lighting.


----------



## neroden

Frankly, there are already plenty of museum-quality baggage cars in museums.

* Half the Amtrak Heritage baggage cars are converted coaches. They're completely shot since the suspension wasn't designed for baggage service, and they have had all interior details stripped. Nobody wants them. Best case, they'll be stripped fort parts. More likely they'll be melted for metal value.

* The other half have mostly *also* had all their original interior details stripped over the decades. They're also mostly bad choices for preservation or restoration, though a few might survive.

* Conversion to any use other than museum service would require putting in windows (restoring them in some cases, I guess). This makes it absurdly involved, expensive, and undesirable compared to taking a decaying coach, sleeper, cafe, diner, or observation car.

The Heritage dining cars are much, much more attractive for anyone interested in preservation, restoration, private car service, or even entertainment. Seemingly the tourist train and charter private-car markets can never get enough dining cars -- and they're *also* popular as seating attractions at railroad museums and even just at theme restaurants. I would expect much, much more interest in those -- they should all fetch prices better than scrap.


----------



## neroden

Guest said:


> What I have heard is that the baggage department has been instructed not to use the shelves and that the train crews will be instructed not to use the sheves. However at this time pending training and written instructions I woud consider the above only to be rumors. I certainly would not attempt to use the shelves without training. Perhaps that is where the rumors come from, maybe they don't want the shelves used until everyone, station baggage handlers and train crew have been trained, and then they will use the shelves.


Now *that* would make sense. A *lot* of sense. It's probably quite possible for someone who doesn't know what he's doing to screw up and break the shelves; perhaps it's easy to overload them, or perhaps the workings are finicky. They may be requiring that everyone be trained carefully on the shelf usage before allowing them to be used. In fact, Amtrak will probably have to put specific instructions and restrictions into the Blue Book regarding using the shelves properly before they allow anyone to operate them. (This would be so if an employee breaks the shelf, Amtrak can take the cost out of their wallet.) And make sure that every single employee has the new edition of the book. That may take a while. I would totally expect a temporary "don't use the shelves yet" instruction under these circumstances.

----

I will also say that given the previous reports of quality control issues I wouldn't be surprised at all if some percentage of the cars (10%?) do get sent back to Elmira for repairs. But it seems clear that *most* of them are OK at this point.


----------



## Grammar Nazi

William W. said:


> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DryCreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they'll even put canvas sling seats in the heritage baggage cars and sell reduced-fare steerage class passage? I'd hate to think that they would just scrap them.
> 
> 
> 
> Those baggage cars are 60 years old and have their wheels run off with millions of miles of service. There's no more life left in them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, they'll end up on the Texas State Railroad then. Maybe they'll be converted to some time of lounge car or just used for carrying spare parts for when they do get a consist together and moving.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think that you understand the situation. Those baggage cars have *literally *been run into the ground. They are nearing the point of no longer being safe to operate. One or two might be kept as historical pieces, but the rest are headed for the scrapheap.
Click to expand...

:angry2: :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: :angry2:


----------



## Bus Nut

Was that really necessary? Also, check yourself before you wreck yourself. "Run into the ground" _literally_ doesn't mean what you think it means: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/run+into+the+ground

Although these old bags sometimes get flat wheels that could put part of the train _on_ the ground.

Back to Viewliner, not surprised that there is going to be doom and gloom scuttlebutt running around with a change thsi significant. Employees are anxious and not everything has gone perfectly with this car order. But I detect a whiff of exaggeration here myself.


----------



## George K

Bus Nut said:


> not everything has gone perfectly with this car order


As you say, I'm sure that there's exaggeration, but what _has_ gone wrong with this order?

(asking because I don't feel like wading through 80 pages of this thread - yeah, I'm lazy)


----------



## Guest

George K said:


> Bus Nut said:
> 
> 
> 
> not everything has gone perfectly with this car order
> 
> 
> 
> As you say, I'm sure that there's exaggeration, but what _has_ gone wrong with this order?
> 
> (asking because I don't feel like wading through 80 pages of this thread - yeah, I'm lazy)
Click to expand...

It would be surprising if any new equipment did not fail their initial test runs or that new equipment would not have issues. I would not have much faith in any testing that did not uncover issues that had to be fixed before putting new equipment into service. Don't forget that not only does Amtrak have to sign off on new equipment, the FRA has to sign off on it. The exaggeration would be to think that faling test runs means the issues can't or won't be be fixed. Modifications will be made ( maybe already done or in progress ) so they will pass the test runs.


----------



## George K

Of course. Being ignorant of how these things are handled, I was just wondering what kind of issues are being found. I would think that the contract Amtrak has would be specific wrt specs such as dimensions, compatibility with other rolling stock, etc.


----------



## NTL1991

Viewliner II Baggage 61024 will be deadheading on the very rear of 91(15) to MIA for "Warranty Work"


----------



## Caesar La Rock

I've been watching the Silver Service trains for years now. Some of the baggage cars looked as if they were going to fall apart before my eyes. Some aren't all too bad, but then again a new paint job can hide a lot of things. If some are to survive into preservation, I wonder which ones are likely candidates?

I doubt the 1700s are going to make it, so unless someone wants to actually buy those and put money into reconverting them back into coaches, power to whoever can pull it off. It's going to be expensive though. The Diners are definitely going to make it into preservation.


----------



## afigg

George K said:


> Of course. Being ignorant of how these things are handled, I was just wondering what kind of issues are being found. I would think that the contract Amtrak has would be specific wrt specs such as dimensions, compatibility with other rolling stock, etc.


Amtrak owns the Viewliner design. CAF has made changes and manufacturing revisions to the design, but CAF is working off of Amtrak design documents. So it is more just specifications.

As for the post claiming problems with shelf strength, that would surprise me because designing the fold-down shelves to hold so many pounds of luggage over so many gs of bumpy track is straight forward mechanical engineering design. Not exactly a complicated nor challenging design item. 28 of the baggage cars have been accepted, this many months after initial rounds of testing of the first 2 baggage cars which were then sent back to CAF for changes. More issues may crop up, but if they do, then CAF and Amtrak will work out how to fix them and make the changes.

The ACS-64s have undergone what appears to be a long list of refinements and change orders with retrofits being made to the earlier units that have been delivered. These are not off the shelf purchases, retrofits and modifications after the units have been delivered are par for the course.


----------



## George K

Thanks for the info. Fascinating.

It's certainly not like buying a car off the assembly line, is it? I had no idea that something that I, as an ignorant person, would have considered not much more complicated than a set of wheels under a box could pose all kinds of issues.

Design, spec, buy, build, tweak, tweak, tweak...


----------



## BagsWithAView

Trains going out with coaches instead of baggage cars has shot up the past few days. Heritage baggage car 1203 was sent to Beech Grove on 850-13 to be stored dead.

92-07

92-13

92-14

49-15

97-15

48-16

92-16

Still no news on when the new cars will go into service, but I suspect it is getting close.


----------



## NTL1991

There are some issues with the baggage cars as far as pinch points with the baggage racks and also an issue that pertains to clearances when using pallet jacks in the cars.


----------



## jis

Think of it this way.... so many Amfleet IIs will suddenly become available to carry passengers again, once the baggage cars go into service


----------



## George K

That's what I like. A "Glass Half Full" kind of guy.


----------



## neroden

NTL1991 said:


> There are some issues with the baggage cars as far as pinch points with the baggage racks and also an issue that pertains to clearances when using pallet jacks in the cars.


The pinch points shouldn't prevent the racks from being used, but would require careful training and new manuals to make sure everyone avoids getting dangerously pinched. (There are plenty of pinch points which must be carefully avoided in existing equipment.)

As for the pallet jacks... well, they might not work. Oh well.


----------



## ScottRu

My info is still that ALL the new baggage cars failed their tests and will need some refitting before allowed into service. Hope I'm wrong.


----------



## edjbox

Which heritage baggage car was in the Carolinian wreck? Is that stored dead now?


----------



## afigg

edjbox said:


> Which heritage baggage car was in the Carolinian wreck? Is that stored dead now?


Why would it be stored dead this quickly? The Heritage baggage car, P-42 and possibly the Amfleets are likely stored in a siding or yard waiting on examination by accident and insurance investigators. But, why ask that here and not in the Carolinian collision thread?


----------



## Acela150

afigg said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which heritage baggage car was in the Carolinian wreck? Is that stored dead now?
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it be stored dead this quickly? The Heritage baggage car, P-42 and possibly the Amfleets are likely stored in a siding or yard waiting on examination by accident and insurance investigators. But, why ask that here and not in the Carolinian collision thread?
Click to expand...

This is pretty much the answer. But it won't see a road train again.


----------



## Palmetto

It seems to be that the bag-dorms could be used on any route, and that would increase revenue space in the regular sleeper on the route.


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> It seems to be that the bag-dorms could be used on any route, and that would increase revenue space in the regular sleeper on the route.


Provided the amount of baggage carried on the route fits in half a baggage car.

I think it is very likely that the Cardinal and one section of the LSL will get the bag dorms accounting for 5. That leaves three more to assign assuming 2 will be off line at any time. I suspect no western train will get bag dorms. They could be selectively used on heavier travel days on specific trains to enhance effective Sleeper capacity. In those case they would be used in addition to a full bag. Mind you... all just speculation.


----------



## west point

The argument of baggage and / or baggage dorms has to be put in a long range look. These cars will probably be planned for at least another 40 years. Amtrak may be thinking that LD trains will have more passengers each year requiring more baggage space. When you see how much baggage goes into a 300 passenger airplane you can see a complete baggage car needed for this number or more.


----------



## Seaboard92

90 has a baggage car right now on the rear end


----------



## fulham

Is it a Vll or a Heritage baggage?


----------



## Palmetto

There are no V-II baggage cars in service yet; at least, it hasn't been reported.


----------



## Ryan

That doesn't mean that it doesn't have one deadheading.


----------



## Seaboard92

V2 deadheading


----------



## Palmetto

Of course it doesn't, Ryan. That's why I used the phrase "in service".


----------



## edjbox

When will they be in service officially?


----------



## NE933

I'd like to request that all further postings about baggage cars use a protocol, in which the poster who writes about a baggage car movement, identify as either Heritage or Viewliner II (V2 is ok too), and whether or not it is in service if known. Also on the bench is elaboration of the rumors about the V2 baggage cars needing to be returned to Elmira for warranty work. A poster wrote so, and anyone in the know should/shall confirm if true, and describe what work is required, or, invalidate it with appropriate citations of reason that contradict it. Effective now.


----------



## Thirdrail7

afigg said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which heritage baggage car was in the Carolinian wreck? Is that stored dead now?
> 
> 
> 
> Why would it be stored dead this quickly? The Heritage baggage car, P-42 and possibly the Amfleets are likely stored in a siding or yard waiting on examination by accident and insurance investigators. But, why ask that here and not in the Carolinian collision thread?
Click to expand...

If memory serves, the 1255 was on 80(9). 1203 is stored because it has reached its next brake system inspection date. Instead of spending the time and money to perform the inspections, the car is being stored. This isn't the first one and it isn't the last one as a few more bags are approaching their due date over the next few weeks.


----------



## Slasharoo

A photographer on facebook posted some pictures of the Chicago area and it looks like two superliner consists have new bags in service. Waiting to hear from her if she knows which trains I was looking at in her shots.


----------



## Amtrak172

Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.


----------



## NE933

Amtrak172 said:


> Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.


It's precisely stuff like this that I'm talking about. It causes angst amongst us and the wider audience out there. Some words about which tests or what kind of failures, their magnitude, and how far from a fix goes a long way in calming the seas of this hot spot in the subject of long distance rail travel that is clearly riding on the success of these cars and their brethren of sleepers and diners.


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak172 said:


> Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.


Lots of rumors. Nothing confirmed.


----------



## jis

If one insists on saying something "failed a test" if testing showed that certain things need to be tweaked then of course by that definition "it failed a test". But that is not how the testers view such things. There are show-stopper issues and there are other issues that need fixing. If there were show stopper issues, the cars would not have been released to travel over a thousand miles attached to revenue trains. The fact that they are running around attached to revenue service implies that FRA thinks they are safe to operate. The fact that they are not in revenue service yet means Amtrak thinks that there are a few more tweaks and reliability/resiliency issues that need addressing. Notice that warrantee work is now being done in Hialeah. All cars are not getting shipped to CAF for any such work anymore.

So bottom line is there is a lot of random rumor mongering going on based on sometimes reliable and sometimes completely flaky utterances from various sources. Take all of it with a dollop of salt.


----------



## Ryan

Slasharoo said:


> A photographer on facebook posted some pictures of the Chicago area and it looks like two superliner consists have new bags in service. Waiting to hear from her if she knows which trains I was looking at in her shots.


If you're talking about the pictures in the Amtrak Fans group, they're not Viewliners, they're heritage bags.


----------



## CREW-DORM#2524

For whomever was asking about the baggage car that was wrecked on #80, it was Heritage bag car #1755. The coaches were moved in a special move to Washington maybe 2 days after the wreck. The bag car, #1755 and P42 #185 are in the CSX yard at Rocky Mount being prepped for a special move that will eventually end up in Beech Grove.


----------



## me_little_me

Amtrak172 said:


> Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.


In spite of cramming, the oral exam proved too difficult.

The good news is a retest is allowed. Hopefully, with a few crib sheets, a better result will occur next time.

:giggle:


----------



## StriderGDM

Color me skeptical, but I for one am not too worried about there being any major showstoppers.

For one, as pointed out above, if there were, Amtrak certainly would not be scattering the cars to all points of the compass if they expected they'd have to do a lot of work on them, or worse, return them to Elmira.

For another, and one I had thought of this morning, even before Thirdrail7 made his post, is that apparently one reason we're seeing an apparent shortage of Heritage baggage cars is because many are nearing their next mandatory inspection periods and the powers that be must be expecting the new Viewliner IIs available soon. (and by soon I mean within the next 90 days,otherwise, cars would be undergoing their 90 day inspection.)

Patience young (and old) padawans.


----------



## ScottRu

All I can report is what I was told (by a SCA, which may or may not be the blue ribbon of data verification). Ultimately it matters little - the cars did, or did not, pass their original testing. They no doubt will, in the end, come on line and improve the Amtrak fleet.

However, it will be great when new cars that actual passengers sit in are also upgraded.


----------



## PaulM

NE933 said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.
> 
> 
> 
> It's precisely stuff like this that I'm talking about. It causes angst amongst us and the wider audience out there. Some words about which tests or what kind of failures, their magnitude, and how far from a fix goes a long way in calming the seas of this hot spot in the subject of long distance rail travel that is clearly riding on the success of these cars and their brethren of sleepers and diners.
Click to expand...

Why would you expect, after over 1600 posts, some actual information? I doubt the military can keep a military secret as well as Amtrak has kept secret the progress of the VL2 order.

What is sad is that the delays haven't generated any media attention. Sad, not because I want to see Amtrak embarrassed, but because it means there there is no interest among the general population. I don't expect VL2 delays to get the same attention as Boeing's dreamliner did, but still.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Let's face it. Baggage cars ain't exactly something that the general public will get excited about. Now if similar delays affect Amtrak's next Accela order, that would attract attention.


----------



## pvd

And when people talk about capital investment in rolling stock, it is sobering to think that 130 cars cost (roughly) what 2 Dreamliners cost.


----------



## Guest

me_little_me said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.
> 
> 
> 
> In spite of cramming, the oral exam proved too difficult.
> 
> The good news is a retest is allowed. Hopefully, with a few crib sheets, a better result will occur next time.
> 
> :giggle:
Click to expand...

As I have tried to outline for everyone....... it is not unusual for new equipment to have issues and fail test runs. Yes, they failed but it is not the end of the world. Modifications will be made eventualy the equipment will enter service.


----------



## Guest

PaulM said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I read correctly that the Viewliner II baggage cars failed the tests? If so, wow, that's an embarrassment.
> 
> 
> 
> It's precisely stuff like this that I'm talking about. It causes angst amongst us and the wider audience out there. Some words about which tests or what kind of failures, their magnitude, and how far from a fix goes a long way in calming the seas of this hot spot in the subject of long distance rail travel that is clearly riding on the success of these cars and their brethren of sleepers and diners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why would you expect, after over 1600 posts, some actual information? I doubt the military can keep a military secret as well as Amtrak has kept secret the progress of the VL2 order.
> 
> What is sad is that the delays haven't generated any media attention. Sad, not because I want to see Amtrak embarrassed, but because it means there there is no interest among the general population. I don't expect VL2 delays to get the same attention as Boeing's dreamliner did, but still.
Click to expand...

Of course you are not going to get the actual information. It is confidential. It concerns not just Amtrak but CAF. Those who have it have to be circumspect. If someone posted the information it probably would be not be hard to figure out who it was who posted it. People who know want to keep their jobs. In any case as is clear from reading this thread even if it was posted most of the people reading this thread would not understand it.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Please no panic drills.

In the worst case rumor, if every baggage car released from the factory has to go back for mods … so what?

The factory will be cranking out another batch of cars with the modifications in place when they leave the door. Meanwhile, why not disperse the imperfect cars already on hand all thru the system for training? The alternative would be to delay the training as well, right, with the perfect becoming the enemy of the good enuff.

New baggage cars are being used to train crews. Still more baggage cars are being assembled. There's clear movement. Now it seems like the new cars will come into the fleet in big batches of 10 or 20 at a time. Most of us were probably expecting them to come at only about one train's worth at a time. So we wondered if the _Lake Shore_ would come first or a _Silver _or what. Now it seems likely that two or three or four trains at a time could go from Heritage cars to Viewliner IIs. I don't see any problem with that.

It worried me much more when nothing at all came out the door for months on end.


----------



## NTL1991

neroden said:


> NTL1991 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some issues with the baggage cars as far as pinch points with the baggage racks and also an issue that pertains to clearances when using pallet jacks in the cars.
> 
> 
> 
> The pinch points shouldn't prevent the racks from being used, but would require careful training and new manuals to make sure everyone avoids getting dangerously pinched. (There are plenty of pinch points which must be carefully avoided in existing equipment.)
> As for the pallet jacks... well, they might not work. Oh well.
Click to expand...

Oh Well isnt a realistic answer for Amtrak. When you have dozens and dozens of Heavy Express stations that depend on the existing equipment they already have, Amtrak isn't going to just accept purchasing all new Baggage Handling Equipment in order to use these new baggage cars, if it turns out there are accessibility/clearance issues when using existing Pallet Jacks.

Oh Well would mean no more palletized shipments, which simply is not an answer.


----------



## jis

If the choice become no baggage cars vs. no palletized shipment, guess what the answer will be.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> If the choice become no baggage cars vs. no palletized shipment, guess what the answer will be.


Assuming the issue with palletized shipment handling is accurate, the question would be how did this happen and who takes the hit for it. If you hire a contractor to produce a product, clearly identify what performance you want from the product, and the contractor does not fulfill one of the requirements, you don't simply shrug, send the contractor the check and walk away with a defective product. On the other hand, if you don't give the contractor the details needed, and you review and approve drawings that, upon inspection, reveal the future problem, then any changes needed to provide the lacking capability are the buyer's responsibility.

I know that things are always more complicated than they appear to the general public, but paraphrasing Alan Iverson, we're talking _baggage cars_. Not diners, not sleepers, not cars that need plumbing and seats and beds and kitchens and sophisticated HVAC. We're talking _baggage cars_. How could even Amtrak, renowned for loving to reinvent the wheel and, in the process, throwing all kinds of monkey wrenches into the works, screw up a baggage car order. It is both perplexing and amusing at the same time.


----------



## Ryan

PRR 60 said:


> How could even Amtrak, renowned for loving to reinvent the wheel and, in the process, throwing all kinds of monkey wrenches into the works, screw up a baggage car order.


I'm sure we could come up with a pretty long list.


----------



## neroden

Amtrak's profit on palletized express shipments is so low (it doesn't even show up in the annual accounting) that Amtrak would drop it without a second thought if necessary. Amtrak barely even advertises Amtrak Express. And even most stations which handle Express apparently don't handle pallets -- how many stations can even handle them?

My guess is that the inward-opening doors block the pathway for the pallet trucks. This isn't something which is fixable with a tweak. Oh well. So don't use the pallet trucks. Easy decision. Amtrak isn't in the freight business.

Anyway, whatever the modifications needed are, they obviously don't affect FRA certification to be roadworthy. And if they affect training, they must be related to modifying the luggage racks, because apparently all the other training is taking place right now. And if the mods are being done at Hialeah, they really can't be significant (if they were serious, they'd be going back to CAF). Maybe every luggage rack has to have one type of bolt replaced with another or something equally minor; this is less than had to be done on my new automobile and I wouldn't even blink about that.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I'm only going to wade into this mess. I'd like to reintroduce a quote I made a little while ago:



> Station personnel will receive training since they help load/unload the car in the stations.. Whether you realize it or not, a lot of the baggage cars have loading plans. The luggage isn't just randomly thrown in the car.
> 
> Usually. ^_^
> 
> *Besides, this car is not like a heritage. It has racks, shelves, areas for pallets/express plus a secure storage area. Once everyone is familiar with the amenities, feedback from the field will help establish a loading plan to minimize station dwell time.*
> 
> I haven't heard an overall plan to familiarize engineers with the nuances of the bags but I suppose that can vary by division.


I think what we're seeing is mish mosh of information mixing with outdated information. There are those that said they failed "all of their" tests. I believe that is a throwback to when they were moved to Hialeah. There were issues, most of which have been corrected. If everyone recalls, when they started deploying the baggage cars, the two on the rear were undergoing testing for a recent modifications. Perhaps, things didn't work out as well as planned and that is why certain people are in chicken little mode.

As for clearance issues, that is what field testing is all about. That is why they were deployed. Information from the field and various depots will be used to develop a reasonable plan that may vary by route. There may not be a "one size fits all" solution. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

My advice to the people that quote sources: Your sources are in a bad spot. If they told you something, perhaps they told you in confidence. If you can't reveal the information in its entirety, perhaps it is best for everyone if you remain silent.


----------



## PerRock

I would presume the issue with Palletized shipments would be making the corner from the doorway into the central 'corridor' not being big enough; the only other thing I can think of is that it's an issue with the floor material.

But don't the shelves lift up? So wouldn't this be a non-issue? Can't fit the pallet jack around? lift of the shelf.

peter


----------



## offroad437

Just saw a new baggage car in Nol. It is in the maint area just north of the station.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Love Bill's Iverson paraphrase: Baggage Cars? Were talking' Baggage Cars, not Sleepers, Diners, Coaches or Bag/ Dorms!! We're talking' Baggage Cars man!!

As others have said, we don't want a repeat of the Acela roll out and recall and other famous and infamous Amtrak equipment fiascos!!.

We've waited a long time for the badly needed new equopment, and its better to have it right when it goes into service than to be DOA out in the Boonies somewhere, or have to recall everything!!


----------



## neroden

It sounds like there's now one at every conductor base east of the Mississippi, and maybe the engineer bases too, and some other stations as well. (I'm not sure about a couple, but it's certainly nearly all.) Here's hoping that "training" goes quickly. I'm leaving on Tuesday; maybe I'll see a Viewliner baggage car on my return trip on April 10th...


----------



## offroad437

offroad437 said:


> Just saw a new baggage car in Nol. It is in the maint area just north of the station.


Passed by again and it was hooked up to the switcher getting backed in the Maint building. Maybe they training the repair crews here???


----------



## Guest

PerRock said:


> I would presume the issue with Palletized shipments would be making the corner from the doorway into the central 'corridor' not being big enough; the only other thing I can think of is that it's an issue with the floor material.
> 
> But don't the shelves lift up? So wouldn't this be a non-issue? Can't fit the pallet jack around? lift of the shelf.
> 
> peter


The shelves are going to remain down because they can only hold 250 lbs. So using them would be problematic.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

250 lbs

Can we say "Troll"

That would be 5 bags per self.

Oh that a good one.


----------



## VentureForth

Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.


----------



## jis

When you have to diss something any old bull crap will do


----------



## PerRock

Guest said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would presume the issue with Palletized shipments would be making the corner from the doorway into the central 'corridor' not being big enough; the only other thing I can think of is that it's an issue with the floor material.
> 
> But don't the shelves lift up? So wouldn't this be a non-issue? Can't fit the pallet jack around? lift of the shelf.
> 
> peter
> 
> 
> 
> The shelves are going to remain down because they can only hold 250 lbs. So using them would be problematic.
Click to expand...

Do you have any sort of proof, like do you work for Amtrak or CAF with the Baggage cars. If what you've been insisting on is true, you know a lot for someone who is just spreading rumours. It's feeling to me (& it looks like some of the rest of the community) that at this point you are hell-bent on trying to prove that these new cars have issues; yet everything we've seen from Amtrak seems to say the opposite.

So how do you know this stuff, or are you in fact just making it up?

peter


----------



## StriderGDM

VentureForth said:


> Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.


You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.

I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.

If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.

So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.

But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.

Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.

So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.


----------



## VentureForth

StriderGDM said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.
> I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.
> 
> If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.
> 
> So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.
> 
> But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.
> 
> Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.
> 
> So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.
Click to expand...

I agree. If nothing else, these new units are quite flexible in design. Now, can they handle palettes? I dunno. But they look pretty adaptable to me.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

StriderGDM said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.
> 
> I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.
> 
> If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.
> 
> So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.
> 
> But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.
> 
> Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.
> 
> So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.
Click to expand...

I count 5 shelves and bike racks on the right side


----------



## StriderGDM

AmtrakBlue said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.
> 
> I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.
> 
> If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.
> 
> So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.
> 
> But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.
> 
> Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.
> 
> So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I count 5 shelves and bike racks on the right side
Click to expand...

There are from what I can tell, 4 shelves in the down position (3 on top with a gap of 2 shelves between them) and 1 in the down position on the lower level.

I don't see any bike racks in this photo. I believe they're beyond the door. My understanding is there's 5 or 10 per car and will hold the bikes in a vertical (i.e front wheel high) position.


----------



## printman2000

I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

printman2000 said:


> I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.


Looks like it. I found this picture showing just that.


----------



## StriderGDM

AmtrakBlue said:


> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it. I found this picture showing just that.
Click to expand...

VERY interesting. I was curious about that in the photo I posted since it looked like the spacing on the cross bars was about right.

Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss some bikes in there.


----------



## jis

Looking at the pictures, I am a bit puzzled about what the issue is. Looks like even if there is a problem with shelf loads, one could simply forgo deploying the lower shelf and pile the heavies on the floor. They could still deploy the upper shelf to stow large number of lighter bags on them without placing additional load on the baggage on the floor. What gives? Why do the shelves have to remain undeployed. I simply do not get it, unless of course it is assumed that the baggage handlers lack any bit of brain above the stem, which would be a very unfair assumption IMHO.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Common sense should prevail here. Simply post placards on the wall outling shelf capacity and with a pict-o-gram of how to deploy the shelves. Hang a few Bungee Cords on the wall to run between the angled starrping to hold in lighter loads and everything should be good to go. And if there is concern about bags getting dirty from the floor, put a Mop and Bucket rig in there.


----------



## KmH

Engineering the shelves and determining what fasteners are needed to attach the shelves to the wall of the car would be a Mechanical Engineering 201 project.

It sure ain't _rocket science._

It behooves the baggage car loader to put the heaviest baggage as close to (or on) the floor as possible to keep the CoG (Center of Gravity) of the car as low as possible.

an added bonus is the baggage car loader wouldn't have to work as hard either.


----------



## Guest

StriderGDM said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.
> 
> I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.
> 
> If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.
> 
> So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.
> 
> But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.
> 
> Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.
> 
> So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.
Click to expand...

The 250 lbs per is true. That is not many bags and the baggage department and conductors enroute don't have any way to weigh the baggage so it is not safe to use them. The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains. It is not a show stopper. The baggage will be piled on the floor as it is now.

The Viewliner baggage cars will be in service starting Monday. I was going to mention the first train they would be on but because of your attitudes I will let you watch for them on every train.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Statement that Conductors and baggage handlers have no way to weigh checked baggage enroute is not correct!

All checked baggage has to be 50 lbs or less and it is weighed in the station before it can be checked!

Rule of thumb for Conductors and baggage handlers: 5x50= 250!!!

Good news that the bag cars are going into service starting Monday, the obvious trains to get them first are the Silver Trains and the Lake Shore Ltd.

There will most certainly be plenty of rail fans spotting them and posting pics and reports on the various rail sites including AU!!


----------



## Guest

StriderGDM said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> printman2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it. I found this picture showing just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> VERY interesting. I was curious about that in the photo I posted since it looked like the spacing on the cross bars was about right.
> 
> Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss some bikes in there.
Click to expand...

The bikes don't require much training. The baggage car doors and latches, the electric lockers, air vents, location of safety equipment, location of the hand brake, and pretty importantly the location of the truck cut out valves under the cars, bleed valve under the car, brake cut out and bleed valves inside the car requires the crew training.

Also if the cars activate a wayside hot box detector if the templestick does not melt you can continue at normal speed. If it activates a wayside dectector a second time then the car has to be set out. I had to scratch my head at first about that rule but then looking at the trucks I noticed for some reason they have used roller bearings.


----------



## Ryan

Yeah, that bit of common sense seems obvious, I'm sure that most folks will do just fine. The rest? Well, they're finding a way to manage now...



Guest said:


> The Viewliner baggage cars will be in service starting Monday. I was going to mention the first train they would be on but because of your attitudes I will let you watch for them on every train.


Oh no, the horrors.

Thanks for all of the "valuable" information you've brought to the thread.


----------



## printman2000

jimhudson said:


> The Statement that Conductors and baggage handlers have no way to weigh checked baggage enroute is not correct!
> 
> All checked baggage has to be 50 lbs or less and it is weighed in the station before it can be checked!
> 
> Rule of thumb for Conductors and baggage handlers: 5x50= 250!!!


And I doubt you could fit more than 5 on one of those shelves.


----------



## DryCreek

"_Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss *some* bikes in there._"


A few of my co-workers that ride in long distance races pay more for their bicycles than I did for the first three or four vehicles I bought!

The least expensive of them is around $2,500. The triathlon guys pay way more than that. We just have a couple of American Made Huffy's from the early 90's. They're heavy for todays standards for mountain bikes, but they sure are sturdy. Oh, and we only paid a little over $125 each for them way back then too!


----------



## Guest

printman2000 said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Statement that Conductors and baggage handlers have no way to weigh checked baggage enroute is not correct!
> 
> All checked baggage has to be 50 lbs or less and it is weighed in the station before it can be checked!
> 
> Rule of thumb for Conductors and baggage handlers: 5x50= 250!!!
> 
> 
> 
> And I doubt you could fit more than 5 on one of those shelves.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter. Baggage is not going to be loaded on the shelves.


----------



## Guest

DryCreek said:


> "_Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss *some* bikes in there._"
> 
> 
> A few of my co-workers that ride in long distance races pay more for their bicycles than I did for the first three or four vehicles I bought!
> 
> The least expensive of them is around $2,500. The triathlon guys pay way more than that. We just have a couple of American Made Huffy's from the early 90's. They're heavy for todays standards for mountain bikes, but they sure are sturdy. Oh, and we only paid a little over $125 each for them way back then too!


If I had a $2500 bike there is no way I would put my $2500 bike in those baggage cars.


----------



## printman2000

Guest said:


> It doesn't matter. Baggage is not going to be loaded on the shelves.


Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, Guest poster.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

If the shelves are a total mess, Amtrak will be doing the right thing to just go ahead with what they've got. Presumably new shelves can be designed and manufactured. That will take time.

Meanwhile, let's move on to the diners and the sleepers, please!


----------



## Guest

printman2000 said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter. Baggage is not going to be loaded on the shelves.
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, Guest poster.
Click to expand...

Obviously you have not had the new baggage car training! LOL


----------



## Guest

WoodyinNYC said:


> If the shelves are a total mess, Amtrak will be doing the right thing to just go ahead with what they've got. Presumably new shelves can be designed and manufactured. That will take time.
> 
> Meanwhile, let's move on to the diners and the sleepers, please!


I wonder if the new diners and sleepers will have roller bearings.


----------



## Agent

> ...looking at the trucks I noticed for some reason they have used roller bearings.


Journal boxes haven't been used in a long time.


----------



## neroden

Guest said:


> The 250 lbs per is true.


OK, thanks for the information. That's 5 bags. Wanna be on the safe side? Call it 4 bags.



> That is not many bags and the baggage department and conductors enroute don't have any way to weigh the baggage so it is not safe to use them.


This is simply, flatly, false. Every single station I've ever checked baggage at has a baggage weighing scale. There is also a consistent 50 lb limit. I have only seen a few bags go around the weighing machines (because they were weird oversized things like wheelchairs and skis) and they were marked with special tags.
Are there some stations without baggage scales? Perhaps. But it looks like there are entire routes where all the stations with baggage service DO have scales. Adding scales to a few rural stations is within Amtrak's budget.

It may require retraining of the baggage handlers to actually remind them to weigh all the bags. But if the 250 lb. limit is really the only issue, then it's not an issue with the shelves; the shelves are just fine. Although the baggage handlers and conductors may need retraining, and perhaps some stations may need added equipment.



> The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.


The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.


----------



## PRR 60

neroden said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 250 lbs per is true.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, thanks for the information. That's 5 bags. Wanna be on the safe side? Call it 4 bags.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not many bags and the baggage department and conductors enroute don't have any way to weigh the baggage so it is not safe to use them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is simply, flatly, false. Every single station I've ever checked baggage at has a baggage weighing scale. There is also a consistent 50 lb limit. I have only seen a few bags go around the weighing machines (because they were weird oversized things like wheelchairs and skis) and they were marked with special tags.
> Are there some stations without baggage scales? Perhaps. But it looks like there are entire routes where all the stations with baggage service DO have scales. Adding scales to a few rural stations is within Amtrak's budget.
> 
> It may require retraining of the baggage handlers to actually remind them to weigh all the bags. But if the 250 lb. limit is really the only issue, then it's not an issue with the shelves; the shelves are just fine. Although the baggage handlers and conductors may need retraining, and perhaps some stations may need added equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.
Click to expand...

Since the baggage cars, and specifically the cantilever shelving, is a new use for the basic Viewliner shell, and that shell design was likely provided to CAF by Amtrak as a basis for the car detailing, it is not impossible that the shelf load inadequacy, assuming there is one, is a base design issue on Amtrak's side of the project. Cantilever shelving for normal baggage loading, including dynamic and safety factors, puts a pretty large twisting action on the side wall of the car. It is not the type of load that would happen in a sleeper or diner design. I'm not saying that is the situation, but to simply eliminate a base design inadequacy as even a possibility is not a valid conclusion.


----------



## PerRock

neroden said:


> The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.
Click to expand...

And based off from the Guest's posts about this, it seems to more be a training/operational issue, then an actual problem. It sounds to me that our guest (I presume he works for Amtrak & deals with baggage) just doesn't want to be arsed to load the train correctly, and would rather complain that the cars aren't built the way _he_ would like them to be.

peter


----------



## Bjartmarr

PRR 60 said:


> Cantilever shelving for normal baggage loading, including dynamic and safety factors, puts a pretty large twisting action on the side wall of the car. It is not the type of load that would happen in a sleeper or diner design. I'm not saying that is the situation, but to simply eliminate a base design inadequacy as even a possibility is not a valid conclusion.


That's the kind of thing that freshman college students have to figure out. (Huh, I guess I _can't_ screw this bookshelf into the drywall and expect it to hold up!) I can't imagine that the engineers who designed the car forgot about supporting the weight of the bags.

So, without going too much into which trains get them first, I imagine that Amtrak's priorities are replacing Heritage cars on (1) routes that have >110mph sections, (2) routes where snow gets inside the cars, (3) routes with long desolate sections where a Heritage car breakdown is especially troublesome, (4) replacing all the rest of the Heritage baggage, and (5) adding bags to routes that currently don't have them. Does that sound accurate?

I'd really like to see "routes that have heavy bike traffic" on that list, but I think that's wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## Bus Nut

Guest said:


> The Viewliner baggage cars will be in service starting Monday. I was going to mention the first train they would be on but because of your attitudes I will let you watch for them on every train.


That's good because I would hate for your supervisor to find out you were representing your employer in this way by showing your azz on this thread. Or the supervisor of the friend/spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend whose confidence you are betraying.

:help:


----------



## Ryan

PerRock said:


> It sounds to me that our guest (I presume he works for Amtrak & deals with baggage) just doesn't want to be arsed to load the train correctly, and would rather complain that the cars aren't built the way _he_ would like them to be.


Agreed 100%.


----------



## Guest

PerRock said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And based off from the Guest's posts about this, it seems to more be a training/operational issue, then an actual problem. It sounds to me that our guest (I presume he works for Amtrak & deals with baggage) just doesn't want to be arsed to load the train correctly, and would rather complain that the cars aren't built the way _he_ would like them to be.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

I would attempt to load the car as they have instructed. That currently is not to use the shelves. What is correct by instruction is to not use them.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

If there was concern about the stress loads from swing down shelving, I am surprised the designers did not include vertical end columns the shelves would swing down onto and latch into place. Then just like the vertical rails the Viewliner Sleeper Beds ride on, they would take the stress and not allow it to transfer to the car walls. I'm not an engineer but do consider myself to have logic and common sense.


----------



## DryCreek

PerRock said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And based off from the Guest's posts about this, it seems to more be a training/operational issue, then an actual problem. It sounds to me that our guest (I presume he works for Amtrak & deals with baggage) just doesn't want to be arsed to load the train correctly, and would rather complain that the cars aren't built the way _he_ would like them to be.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

Heh, funny typo!

Our British members would get it.......


----------



## Paulus

Guest, why don't you provide us some proof that you actually know what you're talking about rather than being a random foamer?


----------



## Guest

Paulus said:


> Guest, why don't you provide us some proof that you actually know what you're talking about rather than being a random foamer?


I am not the foamer on this forum. I am not a rail buff or rail fan who only sees shiny new equipment or wants shiny new rail cars. I deal with the reality of the railroad. If you can't tell that you are not very perceptive. I have nothing to prove to you all.


----------



## CCC1007

Guest said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guest, why don't you provide us some proof that you actually know what you're talking about rather than being a random foamer?
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the foamer on this forum. I am not a rail buff or rail fan who only sees shiny new equipment or wants shiny new rail cars. I deal with the reality of the railroad. If you can't tell that you are not very perceptive. I have nothing to prove to you all.
Click to expand...

All we want is fact, no bull please.


----------



## Guest

CCC1007 said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guest, why don't you provide us some proof that you actually know what you're talking about rather than being a random foamer?
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the foamer on this forum. I am not a rail buff or rail fan who only sees shiny new equipment or wants shiny new rail cars. I deal with the reality of the railroad. If you can't tell that you are not very perceptive. I have nothing to prove to you all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All we want is fact, no bull please.
Click to expand...

You don't want the facts. You want to hear that the cars are wonderful. If you don't hear that then you think it is bull.

Next week when the cars are in service with actual luggage and pallets, there won't be bikes, they have not figured out the locks yet, will be the real test. My expectation is that the baggage department and train crews will make it work and work around any design and engineering errors. It does not matter if the shelves are used or not as long as the baggage can be safely taken origin to destination.


----------



## PerRock

Guest said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guest, why don't you provide us some proof that you actually know what you're talking about rather than being a random foamer?
> 
> 
> 
> I am not the foamer on this forum. I am not a rail buff or rail fan who only sees shiny new equipment or wants shiny new rail cars. I deal with the reality of the railroad. If you can't tell that you are not very perceptive. I have nothing to prove to you all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All we want is fact, no bull please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You don't want the facts. You want to hear that the cars are wonderful. If you don't hear that then you think it is bull.
Click to expand...

Actualy we do. You may thing of us as drooling foamers, who only want to see the shiny new stuff; but in fact you are WAY wrong. Most of use want to have a passenger railroad that works. If that means old 'rusty' equipment, then so be it.

Here is the thing, you've been spouting all this negativity towards these new cars. Going on and on about how they're badly designed or engineered, etc. But beyond your ranting you haven't shown us anything that actually _proves_ you know what you are talking about. For all we know, you're some guy in his parents basement making crap up & you've never even seen the new cars beyond the pics (& vids) posted here.

What we do know, is that:

a) Amtrak has been taking delivery of lots of these new baggage cars, I think they even have another order being picked up in the next week or so (maybe it was last week... or I could be completely wrong on that). And ANY company paying as much as they did into a product wouldn't be taking any more of the cars if they weren't designed right.

b) Amtrak has been shipping the cars around the country for training. Again if the cars weren't right they wouldn't be doing this because, they wouldn't want to pay to remove all the cars spread around the country and ship 'em back to the shops for repair & then have to re-train everyone.

c) If what you say is true about them going into service, again there can't be any big problems otherwise that wouldn't happen.

Now giving you the benefit of the doubt that you do actually work for Amtrak & have been trained. Maybe your boss is the one that can't be arsed to load them correctly and is training you guys badly. I wouldn't put it past Amtrak staff to do this.

But YES WE WANT PROOF. By saying "no you don't" you are in fact making more of us lean towards the fact that you probably don't know what you're talking about.

peter


----------



## StriderGDM

While Guest_Guest_*'s attitude can be a bit annoying (no offense) he doesn't have to prove anything. This isn't a jury of his peers. This is a public forum. And that said Amtrak management has been known to monitor such forums as these and to crack down on employees who have revealed information they don't wish revealed.

So I can see Guest_Guest_*'s desire to remain anonymous.


----------



## NewCars

Yesterday, I heard the first car is expected to go into service on Monday as well. While there wasn't talk of any particular train, my bet is on 98 and/or 92.


----------



## Acela150

DON'T FEED THE TROLL......

Thanks to Guest_NewCars for providing the information.


----------



## neroden

PerRock said:


> Now giving you the benefit of the doubt that you do actually work for Amtrak & have been trained. Maybe your boss is the one that can't be arsed to load them correctly and is training you guys badly. I wouldn't put it past Amtrak staff to do this.


Given Amtrak's history of inconsistent and unreliable service, I would unfortunately expect this. A lot. 

The thing is, Guest_Guest's story about the luggage racks doesn't check out. If they're rated for 250 pounds, that's just fine. That isn't actually a problem. Luggage is already weighed, at every station with checked luggage which I can think of. If someone's telling him not to use the shelves, then either:

(1) the problem with the shelves is something different (pinch points or something)

or

(2) there is no problem with the shelves, and the boss telling him not to use the shelves can't be arsed to do his own job right,

or

(3) the problem is a training problem and they'll eventually start training people to use the shelves... but not yet

Nothing else Guest_Guest has said even hints at any actual problems with the cars.... certainly nothing he's said indicates any "design and engineering errors". Seems like it's training and management errors.

We do know from other, more reliable sources that there were some serious construction (NOT design) errors, such as bad welding, which had to be fixed and caused a year's delay. That's quite different.


----------



## 2.0

I have no idea who's correct here, but you can't say Guest_Guest comments don't check out, and then counter it with "ifs" and a list of how it can actually be true.

I can add my own, like if the shelves can hold only 250 lbs, but were designed for 6 (or more) pieces of 50 lbs luggage, there could indeed be a "design and engineering error". :huh:


----------



## PRR 60

As an engineer, you never, ever design a trap like limiting the number of bags that can be loaded on a shelf when the consequence of a mistake is an employee injury. I don't care how carefully you think bags are weighed or how much training you think can happen, if a shelf can fit 10, 15 bags or more bags, then it has to be designed to handle that load - period. If that is not the case, then the shelves cannot be used until the situation is fixed. So, no, having a ten foot shelf section limited to 250 pounds is not "just fine."


----------



## printman2000

PRR 60 said:


> As an engineer, you never, ever design a trap like limiting the number of bags that can be loaded on a shelf when the consequence of a mistake is an employee injury. I don't care how carefully you think bags are weighed or how much training you think can happen, if a shelf can fit 10, 15 bags or more bags, then it has to be designed to handle that load - period. If that is not the case, then the shelves cannot be used until the situation is fixed. So, no, having a ten foot shelf section limited to 250 pounds is not "just fine."


From the pictures it looks to me the shelves will not hold more than 5 bags, perhaps even 4.

Of course, I guess they could pile them up, but I assume that was not the idea.


----------



## PRR 60

The shelf sections appear to be at least ten feet long. I would design a shelf like that for ten pieces of luggage @ 50 pounds each. That would result in a required load rating of at least 500 pounds per shelf.


----------



## printman2000

I was looking at this one...






Guess there may be two different lengths in there.


----------



## neroden

PRR 60 said:


> As an engineer, you never, ever design a trap like limiting the number of bags that can be loaded on a shelf when the consequence of a mistake is an employee injury.


There is always a weight limit for everything. You don't design a shelf to carry 10,000 pounds of gold bars. You only overdesign a little.
Foreshortening in photos means I have no idea how long the shelves actually are. If they are 10 feet long, then yes, they should be designed for higher weight limits. It looked like less than four feet to me, but no way to tell without being there.

If there are actually two different shelf lengths, the short ones may be fine and the long ones not. I've heard of specification mixups like that before.  If so it's an easy fix (replace everything with short shelves).


----------



## AmtrakBlue

neroden said:


> If so it's an easy fix (replace everything with short shelves).


Or add another weight bearing bracket at the middle.


----------



## Palmetto

I read on TO that there will be two V-II bags on 98 tomorrow, with one in service. Huzzah! Huzzah!


----------



## StriderGDM

neroden said:


> If there are actually two different shelf lengths, the short ones may be fine and the long ones not. I've heard of specification mixups like that before.  If so it's an easy fix (replace everything with short shelves).


The shelf lengths are different. IF nothing else, simply count the number of "cross-bars" in the short ones vs. the long ones. The long ones appear to have twice as many.


----------



## VentureForth

So, back to our anonymous guest. Is the 250 lb placarded limit for the 5' shelves or the 10' shelves?

I get that the big bags will likely stay on the ground for handling purposes. No problem whatsoever can I speculate in putting 10 lightweight bags on each 10 ft shelf section.

But to say the shelves won't be used at all? That's sort of ridiculous. Unless there is s safety issue that has nothing to do with capacity.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #43, _Pennsylvanian_, had the Viewliner II baggage car AMTK 61006 on the end of it today. The video description says it was deadheading to Pittsburg for crew training.

http://youtu.be/cunQWjUZ_xc


----------



## Fan Railer

Video of freshly overhauled GE P32-8WH 512 calling at Tyrone, PA with Pennsylvanian Train 43, this time, with Viewliner II Baggage Car 61006 (3/22/15). Wicked K5LA XD


----------



## VentureForth

Palmetto said:


> I read on TO that there will be two V-II bags on 98 tomorrow, with one in service. Huzzah! Huzzah!


Misread this. Ran out to see 98 fly by with a heritage in service and another one on the end.


----------



## Guest

VentureForth said:


> So, back to our anonymous guest. Is the 250 lb placarded limit for the 5' shelves or the 10' shelves?
> 
> I get that the big bags will likely stay on the ground for handling purposes. No problem whatsoever can I speculate in putting 10 lightweight bags on each 10 ft shelf section.
> 
> But to say the shelves won't be used at all? That's sort of ridiculous. Unless there is s safety issue that has nothing to do with capacity.


As I undersand it the weight limit was determined by that soft web material you can see in the photos on the sides of the shelves so the length of the shelves does not matter.

I would agree with you that it seems ridiculous to say the shelves won't be used at all. I think all that were told they would not be used were surprised. It was explained as a safety issue.

When the new baggage cars are in service a month or two it will be clearer how they actually will be loaded. We were told not to use the shelves. But we are used to being told one thing on Monday and something different on Tuesday. So maybe the shelves will eventually be used.


----------



## StriderGDM

Guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, back to our anonymous guest. Is the 250 lb placarded limit for the 5' shelves or the 10' shelves?
> 
> I get that the big bags will likely stay on the ground for handling purposes. No problem whatsoever can I speculate in putting 10 lightweight bags on each 10 ft shelf section.
> 
> But to say the shelves won't be used at all? That's sort of ridiculous. Unless there is s safety issue that has nothing to do with capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> As I undersand it the weight limit was determined by that soft web material you can see in the photos on the sides of the shelves so the length of the shelves does not matter.
> 
> I would agree with you that it seems ridiculous to say the shelves won't be used at all. I think all that were told they would not be used were surprised. It was explained as a safety issue.
> 
> When the new baggage cars are in service a month or two it will be clearer how they actually will be loaded. We were told not to use the shelves. But we are used to being told one thing on Monday and something different on Tuesday. So maybe the shelves will eventually be used.
Click to expand...

I'd be positively shocked if the web material itself is the problem.

That looks like basic 1" nylon webbing. Flat Climbing webbing has a working strength of 6,000lbs. Let's assume they cheaped out and used something thinner.. and say 3,000lbs. But you've got one at either end. So you're back to 6,000lbs. (This is ignoring all the additional webbing in the "web" which would add strength).

So 6,000lbs, let's assume they're extra conservative and want a 10x safety factor, that's 600lbs per shelf. And that's being fairly conservative.

That said, if it IS the webbing that's easy to resolve.

If it's the fact the force is being transferred to the skin of the car which isn't designed to be structural, that would be harder to solve (but honestly more believable.)

Either way, I'm guessing it's not a showstopper.


----------



## Ziv

Guest guest, I think the point is that it will be difficult to put more than 4 or 5 bags on the 5' shelves while you could put 8 or 10 bags on the 10' shelves, so the weight limit would be difficult to exceed on the five foot shelves even for someone with a limited ability to gauge weights.

The problem could be the weight is simply putting too much torque on the mount points, because I doubt a nylon type leash/web material would have any problem with anything that light. Parachute cord is much thinner than this and would hold much more.

Or there might not be any problem with the shelves at all. I would imagine we will see several baggage cars in revenue service within the next week, so this issue/tempest in a tea pot really isn't all that critical.

On edit: Dittos on what Strider said.



Guest said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, back to our anonymous guest. Is the 250 lb placarded limit for the 5' shelves or the 10' shelves?
> 
> I get that the big bags will likely stay on the ground for handling purposes. No problem whatsoever can I speculate in putting 10 lightweight bags on each 10 ft shelf section.
> 
> But to say the shelves won't be used at all? That's sort of ridiculous. Unless there is s safety issue that has nothing to do with capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> As I undersand it the weight limit was determined by that soft web material you can see in the photos on the sides of the shelves so the length of the shelves does not matter.
> 
> I would agree with you that it seems ridiculous to say the shelves won't be used at all. I think all that were told they would not be used were surprised. It was explained as a safety issue.
> 
> When the new baggage cars are in service a month or two it will be clearer how they actually will be loaded. We were told not to use the shelves. But we are used to being told one thing on Monday and something different on Tuesday. So maybe the shelves will eventually be used.
Click to expand...


----------



## Guest

StriderGDM said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, back to our anonymous guest. Is the 250 lb placarded limit for the 5' shelves or the 10' shelves?
> 
> I get that the big bags will likely stay on the ground for handling purposes. No problem whatsoever can I speculate in putting 10 lightweight bags on each 10 ft shelf section.
> 
> But to say the shelves won't be used at all? That's sort of ridiculous. Unless there is s safety issue that has nothing to do with capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> As I undersand it the weight limit was determined by that soft web material you can see in the photos on the sides of the shelves so the length of the shelves does not matter.
> 
> I would agree with you that it seems ridiculous to say the shelves won't be used at all. I think all that were told they would not be used were surprised. It was explained as a safety issue.
> 
> When the new baggage cars are in service a month or two it will be clearer how they actually will be loaded. We were told not to use the shelves. But we are used to being told one thing on Monday and something different on Tuesday. So maybe the shelves will eventually be used.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd be positively shocked if the web material itself is the problem.
> 
> That looks like basic 1" nylon webbing. Flat Climbing webbing has a working strength of 6,000lbs. Let's assume they cheaped out and used something thinner.. and say 3,000lbs. But you've got one at either end. So you're back to 6,000lbs. (This is ignoring all the additional webbing in the "web" which would add strength).
> 
> So 6,000lbs, let's assume they're extra conservative and want a 10x safety factor, that's 600lbs per shelf. And that's being fairly conservative.
> 
> That said, if it IS the webbing that's easy to resolve.
> 
> If it's the fact the force is being transferred to the skin of the car which isn't designed to be structural, that would be harder to solve (but honestly more believable.)
> 
> Either way, I'm guessing it's not a showstopper.
Click to expand...

I am not an engineer so I don't know what the actual issue is but here is what it says in the manual:

Important-Loading Baggage

Due to a weight limitations of cargo racks found during post-manufacturing inspection, luggage racks are limited to 250 lbs. When loading, assume each bag weighs 50 lbs. No more then 5 bags per rack.

And that is followed by a bullet point which I just noticed when reading the page tonight. This should make everyone happy.

* A modification will be made during the cars preventative maintenance to resolve the shelf issue where information will be distributed to employees.


----------



## afigg

Palmetto said:


> I read on TO that there will be two V-II bags on 98 tomorrow, with one in service. Huzzah! Huzzah!


it the report is correct that the first Viewliner II baggage car will enter service on Monday, that is good news. Only about 2 years later than originally planned. Better late than never, I guess. 

Has anyone seen reports of V II baggage cars showing up west of CHI or NOL? Those are the furthest west cities I have seen reports for. If none of the new cars have been sent for training west of CHI or NOL (so far), that indicates that the initial deployments into revenue service will be limited to the eastern routes. Which makes sense with a total of 38 cars delivered to Hialeah. Complete the training at all the crew cases in the east and get the first batches into revenue service, then expand to the western routes as the remainder of the baggage cars are delivered.


----------



## VentureForth

Guest said:


> And that is followed by a bullet point which I just noticed when reading the page tonight. This should make everyone happy.
> 
> * A modification will be made during the cars preventative maintenance to resolve the shelf issue where information will be distributed to employees.


That makes me happy. Thanks!


----------



## Palmetto

Isn't today the day they are supposed to go into service--somewhere?


----------



## NewCars

Both 98 and 92 are operating with a Viewliner baggage car in service and a deadhead Hertiage bag on the rear today.


----------



## Me

Trains running with a new baggage car in service today - 20, 80, 92, and 98. I don't know if 67 will get one tonight or not, though I don't see why not. I will know shortly.


----------



## VentureForth

Drat. Son's baseball practice will keep me from being able to capture this date in history live.


----------



## Greg

I saw 80 today in Raleigh and it had baggage 1756 directly behind the engine, but they loaded baggage into new Viewliner 61010 second car in.

Greg


----------



## Thirdrail7

VentureForth said:


> Drat. Son's baseball practice will keep me from being able to capture this date in history live.


If it helps, 80 and 90 are operating with the new bags in service. The heritage bags are deadheading.


----------



## sitzplatz17

So this will probably mean that 29/30 will be the first Superliner train to get the new bags. I'll be curious to see what the viewliner/superliner combo looks like as a "normal" set (p42s, VL bag, SLs)


----------



## dlagrua

Does anyone know how many months it will take to see deployment of all the Viewliner II baggage cars on order? Sure would like to see some sleepers added by late summer but its probably only wishful thinking.


----------



## Palmetto

Don't know the answer there, but I am quite anxious to see deployment of the new passenger-occupied equipment! Anyone here in authority from Amtrak have a clue about a timeline for deployment?


----------



## PerRock

Palmetto said:


> Anyone here in authority from Amtrak have a clue about a timeline for deployment?


When they're done 

peter


----------



## jis

I have informally heard from at least one Amtrak person who is usually in the know that Sleepers will not be ready in summer and possibly even in the fall this year.


----------



## VentureForth

dlagrua said:


> Does anyone know how many months it will take to see deployment of all the Viewliner II baggage cars on order? Sure would like to see some sleepers added by late summer but its probably only wishful thinking.


 This is just my opinion, but seeing as they were nearly all completed in parallel, and almost all have delivered (OK - at least half?) I can see, barring any further unforseen issues, full deployment by the Summer and the heritages gone.



jis said:


> I have informally heard from at least one Amtrak person who is usually in the know that Sleepers will not be ready in summer and possibly even in the fall this year.


Sleepers are before the Diners?


----------



## StriderGDM

jis said:


> I have informally heard from at least one Amtrak person who is usually in the know that Sleepers will not be ready in summer and possibly even in the fall this year.


My GUESS is diners and/or baggage dorms next. While additional sleepers would be nice, I'm sure Amtrak would love to retire the heritage diners as soon as possible.


----------



## pennyk

I saw 98 in the ORL station this afternoon.


----------



## Train2104

pennyk said:


> I saw 98 in the ORL station this afternoon.


What was the Heritage bag on the rear being used for?


----------



## StriderGDM

Train2104 said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw 98 in the ORL station this afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> What was the Heritage bag on the rear being used for?
Click to expand...

Perhaps going to Hileah for some sort of disposition?


----------



## Palmetto

Strider,

98 goes north, so perhaps it's heading to the scrap heap. I do have to wonder how many of these cars are going to be picked up by private car owners for use of some sort.


----------



## afigg

Train2104 said:


> What was the Heritage bag on the rear being used for?


Could be there as backup in case a serious problem crops up with the new baggage cars on the first day. Or heading north to be dropped off to be moved to storage at Bear.
As for which cars come next, there are 32 more baggage cars to be delivered if the production plan is to stay with producing 1 car type at a time. With the new baggage cars entering service, perhaps Amtrak will issue a press release about the shiny new baggage cars which will provide updates on the projected delivery schedule for the rest of the Viewliner IIs.


----------



## Thirdrail7

6 more heritage bags will lose their certifications by the end of April and will likely be phased out. Therefore, the deadhead heritage cars are returning to NYP for protect service and redeployment to cover Western operations.


----------



## Amfleeter

If I recall correctly, several Heritage Bags and Diners will be retained as protects for unforseen losses. It will likely be the best of each batch - assuming the ex-SF four doors for bags would be ideal for an overhaul and protect service. Overhauling some of the Diners for protect service could also be done - Diner service could even be expanded on some trains like the Maple Leaf and Adirondack by using totally overhauled diners if there isn't enough V-II diners for that, or Amtrak doesn't feel like moving Diner Lites to those trains.

In addition, if VIA is interested, Amtrak could even overhaul the Diners for them. Amtrak certainly has the facilities.


----------



## StriderGDM

Amfleeter said:


> If I recall correctly, several Heritage Bags and Diners will be retained as protects for unforseen losses. It will likely be the best of each batch - assuming the ex-SF four doors for bags would be ideal for an overhaul and protect service. Overhauling some of the Diners for protect service could also be done - Diner service could even be expanded on some trains like the Maple Leaf and Adirondack by using totally overhauled diners if there isn't enough V-II diners for that, or Amtrak doesn't feel like moving Diner Lites to those trains.
> 
> In addition, if VIA is interested, Amtrak could even overhaul the Diners for them. Amtrak certainly has the facilities.


I find it highly doubtful Amtrak would add money losing cars (aka diners) to any more trains. At least not for regular service.

But I was thinking earlier how nice it might be to have a special diner, much like the dome car for special purposes.

But no, I don't expect to see diners on either of those trains.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nope, the Dorm/Bag Cars and the Diners will come out first so the Heritage Dinera and Bag Cars can be retired from Service!

I agree with 2016 for the Viewliner II Sleepers!!


----------



## MikefromCrete

Amfleeter said:


> If I recall correctly, several Heritage Bags and Diners will be retained as protects for unforseen losses. It will likely be the best of each batch - assuming the ex-SF four doors for bags would be ideal for an overhaul and protect service. Overhauling some of the Diners for protect service could also be done - Diner service could even be expanded on some trains like the Maple Leaf and Adirondack by using totally overhauled diners if there isn't enough V-II diners for that, or Amtrak doesn't feel like moving Diner Lites to those trains.
> 
> In addition, if VIA is interested, Amtrak could even overhaul the Diners for them. Amtrak certainly has the facilities.


Give the current drive to eliminate food service loses, I doubt if full service diners will be added to any trains, except, and even this would be a wild guess, the Cardinal.

Given VIA's current status, I'm sure the Canadian carrier has more diners now than they can use.


----------



## jis

Amfleeter said:


> Diner service could even be expanded on some trains like the Maple Leaf and Adirondack by using totally overhauled diners if there isn't enough V-II diners for that, or Amtrak doesn't feel like moving Diner Lites to those trains.


So you really believe NY State will pay for Diner service when it has difficulty finding money to just keep the trains running at all? Dream on  what runs on Empire Service of which these two trains are a part, is not Amtrak's call to make!


----------



## DryCreek

Palmetto said:


> Strider,
> 
> 98 goes north, so perhaps it's heading to the scrap heap. I do have to wonder how many of these cars are going to be picked up by private car owners for use of some sort.


Well, one good use would be for more Amtrak history displays like THIS ONE in La Plata Mo. I think that they would be ideally suited for that purpose - providing that they are not totally refurbed and returned as RPO's, but for FedEx and UPS use instead of the USPS.

Hey, a person can dream, can't he?

ETA - well, they would also make an upgraded waiting area for some of those desolate stations shown in the thread for barely existent Amtrak stops!


----------



## mgl1978

Here's video I shot from Arlington VA. Amtrak #90 with new viewliner II baggage in revenue use. It also looked inside the window of the baggage car, it appeared the shelving was in use.

https://youtu.be/FUvGmFQRan8


----------



## R30A

Do you know which car that was? 

Trying to figure out which the first 5 were

20-??? 
80- 61010
90-???
92-???

98- 61012


----------



## MattW

Looks like I'll have a chance at seeing my fiew new Viewbag on Wednesday morning if Amtrak, Norfolk Southern and MARTA all cooperate!


----------



## neroden

Guest said:


> I am not an engineer so I don't know what the actual issue is but here is what it says in the manual:
> 
> Important-Loading Baggage
> 
> Due to a weight limitations of cargo racks found during post-manufacturing inspection, luggage racks are limited to 250 lbs. When loading, assume each bag weighs 50 lbs. No more then 5 bags per rack.
> 
> And that is followed by a bullet point which I just noticed when reading the page tonight. This should make everyone happy.
> 
> * A modification will be made during the cars preventative maintenance to resolve the shelf issue where information will be distributed to employees.


If this is for real, thanks for the info. This makes sense. (I'm suspicious, only because this is exactly what we speculated, and you're Guest_Guest, so you could just be telling us what we want to hear. ;-) )

I do wonder what the problem is. Wildly speculating: Perhaps the attachment of the nylon webbing to the ends of the shelves was done in a way which damaged or weakened the webbing. We DO have reports of poor construction quality and workers not following blueprints correctly. If something like this happened, each shelf may have to be reviewed individually to see whether the nylon webbing has to be replaced and reinstalled properly. This would be very consistent with what we already know about prior reports of poor build quality.


----------



## NE933

Some comparisons were made between the release of Viewliner II's and the Dreamliner, the later being more hyped and well known. Amtrak needs to blare out some news outreach about this historic release of the first deployment of new long and medium distance equipment (emphasize the part about this being part of a larger 130 car order of its type with hopes to get more) in over 30 years. Say something about how travelers now have some convenient options to bring on their baggage without the airport hassles, to go anywhere in the country.

Get some positive noise out there about the Viewliner II's.


----------



## Bus Nut

Guest said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, back to our anonymous guest. Is the 250 lb placarded limit for the 5' shelves or the 10' shelves?
> 
> I get that the big bags will likely stay on the ground for handling purposes. No problem whatsoever can I speculate in putting 10 lightweight bags on each 10 ft shelf section.
> 
> But to say the shelves won't be used at all? That's sort of ridiculous. Unless there is s safety issue that has nothing to do with capacity.
> 
> 
> 
> As I undersand it the weight limit was determined by that soft web material you can see in the photos on the sides of the shelves so the length of the shelves does not matter.
> 
> I would agree with you that it seems ridiculous to say the shelves won't be used at all. I think all that were told they would not be used were surprised. It was explained as a safety issue.
> 
> When the new baggage cars are in service a month or two it will be clearer how they actually will be loaded. We were told not to use the shelves. But we are used to being told one thing on Monday and something different on Tuesday. So maybe the shelves will eventually be used.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd be positively shocked if the web material itself is the problem.
> 
> That looks like basic 1" nylon webbing. Flat Climbing webbing has a working strength of 6,000lbs. Let's assume they cheaped out and used something thinner.. and say 3,000lbs. But you've got one at either end. So you're back to 6,000lbs. (This is ignoring all the additional webbing in the "web" which would add strength).
> 
> So 6,000lbs, let's assume they're extra conservative and want a 10x safety factor, that's 600lbs per shelf. And that's being fairly conservative.
> 
> That said, if it IS the webbing that's easy to resolve.
> 
> If it's the fact the force is being transferred to the skin of the car which isn't designed to be structural, that would be harder to solve (but honestly more believable.)
> 
> Either way, I'm guessing it's not a showstopper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not an engineer so I don't know what the actual issue is but here is what it says in the manual:
> 
> Important-Loading Baggage
> 
> Due to a weight limitations of cargo racks found during post-manufacturing inspection, luggage racks are limited to 250 lbs. When loading, assume each bag weighs 50 lbs. No more then 5 bags per rack.
> 
> And that is followed by a bullet point which I just noticed when reading the page tonight. This should make everyone happy.
> 
> * A modification will be made during the cars preventative maintenance to resolve the shelf issue where information will be distributed to employees.
Click to expand...

*THANK YOU. * 

:excl: Everyone can douse their burning hair now. :lol:

And Guest_Guest, I'm not kidding that I doubt your supervisor would be pleased at your tone or even the kind of information you've been releasing on here. Seriously. Don't be an idiot.


----------



## StriderGDM

NE933 said:


> Some comparisons were made between the release of Viewliner II's and the Dreamliner, the later being more hyped and well known. Amtrak needs to blare out some news outreach about this historic release of the first deployment of new long and medium distance equipment (emphasize the part about this being part of a larger 130 car order of its type with hopes to get more) in over 30 years. Say something about how travelers now have some convenient options to bring on their baggage without the airport hassles, to go anywhere in the country.
> 
> Get some positive noise out there about the Viewliner II's.


Really convenient? Let's see, if I'm in Boston or points north of NYC and want to check my luggage southwards, I have to bring it in a day earlier.

Going north, pick it up a day later.

If I'm going to Canada, forget checking it. As is true with many of the smaller stations across the system.

I really don't think Amtrak is going to make much headway trumpeting their convenience of their service until it's more convenient.

Also notice, you hear a lot more about PASSENGER airlines buying 787s because they are an improvement. You don't hear much about UPS or Fedex upgrading their fleet.

Folks just don't get excited about luggage.


----------



## Palmetto

As I said earlier, Amtrak needs an early-out westbound baggage car [on #93?] to be able to connect with LD trains out of Penn later in the day. What Strider just mentioned about two trips to the station for the sake of checked baggage actually happened to my mother--30 years ago-and she lived 25 miles from Boston.


----------



## jis

There is no reason to refrain from publicizing a facility/convenience that is available where it is, just because it is not available somewhere else.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Hmm - I'm taking a Viewliner roomette to Chicago next week, and I prefer the top bunk. Being a person of size, I hope they don't restrict the safety web strap to 250lbs...


----------



## Thirdrail7

My computer is giving me trouble. I can't paste or quote so I'm using my phone and multi quote isn't available. I may have to make multiple posts.



R30A said:


> Do you know which car that was?
> 
> Trying to figure out which the first 5 were
> 
> 20-???
> 
> 80- 61010
> 
> 90-???
> 
> 92-???
> 
> 98- 61012


20(23) 61007

98(23) 61012

92(23) 61008

80(23) 61010

90(23) 61003

98(24) should have 61014

92(24) should have 61013


----------



## printman2000

mgl1978 said:


> Here's video I shot from Arlington VA. Amtrak #90 with new viewliner II baggage in revenue use. It also looked inside the window of the baggage car, it appeared the shelving was in use.
> 
> https://youtu.be/FUvGmFQRan8


So the shelving is being used. Interesting.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Palmetto said:


> As I said earlier, Amtrak needs an early-out westbound baggage car [on #93?] to be able to connect with LD trains out of Penn later in the day. What Strider just mentioned about two trips to the station for the sake of checked baggage actually happened to my mother--30 years ago-and she lived 25 miles from Boston.


You may see this issue addressed in the future. There are multiple ideas afoot that haven't been deeply explored from what I've read. As Bus Nut mentioned, sometimes it is better to sit back and allow the topic to flow instead of saying too much.

The dust will settle soon...or something like that.


----------



## StriderGDM

Thirdrail7 said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said earlier, Amtrak needs an early-out westbound baggage car [on #93?] to be able to connect with LD trains out of Penn later in the day. What Strider just mentioned about two trips to the station for the sake of checked baggage actually happened to my mother--30 years ago-and she lived 25 miles from Boston.
> 
> 
> 
> You may see this issue addressed in the future. There are multiple ideas afoot that haven't been deeply explored from what I've read. As Bus Nut mentioned, sometimes it is better to sit back and allow the topic to flow instead of saying too much.
> 
> The dust will settle soon...or something like that.
Click to expand...

I will say though for us "normal folks" I suspect it is probably worth at least noting the DESIRE for such service. Just on the off-chance certain people who are known to peruse such forums see the desire.

Regardless of the actual plans, it's important to keep in mind that for the first time in a long time, Amtrak will actually have "extra" equipment and this means flexibility, if nothing else!


----------



## Amtrak172

printman2000 said:


> Here's video I shot from Arlington VA. Amtrak #90 with new viewliner II baggage in revenue use. It also looked inside the window of the baggage car, it appeared the shelving was in use.


I have to say, the Phase IIIb looks horrible with phase IVb


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Amtrak172 said:


> I have to say, the Phase IIIb looks horrible with phase IVb


I fully agree. I know there was a pretty hefty discussion earlier about this when the cars were first seen. If everything was in IIIb fine; if everything was in V, fine. But now we are looking like Amtrak has returned to the Rainbow Era of the early 70s. I would have thought they would have kept them in Phase 5, saving the costs of restriping the entire fleet. I personally like the clean modern look of Phase V.

But at least they are finally rolling in revenue service.


----------



## Amtrak172

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say, the Phase IIIb looks horrible with phase IVb
> 
> 
> 
> I fully agree. I know there was a pretty hefty discussion earlier about this when the cars were first seen. If everything was in IIIb fine; if everything was in V, fine. But now we are looking like Amtrak has returned to the Rainbow Era of the early 70s. I would have thought they would have kept them in Phase 5, saving the costs of restriping the entire fleet. I personally like the clean modern look of Phase V.
> 
> But at least they are finally rolling in revenue service.
Click to expand...

FINALLY!!! Someone that sees it the way I do! Thanks! Your so right, I love the way Amtrak trains look right now with the phase V engines and phase IVb cars. If these cars were in phase IVb, I'd love them, they'd look so much better! AMTRAK, PAINT THEM BACK TO PHASE IVB!!!!


----------



## Ryan

It's not possible to wave a magic wand and have everything cut over to a new scheme all at once. Every time the pain scheme has changed you have trains that look like this. It's going to look awesome when it's all said and done. Until then, enjoy the variety.


----------



## R30A

A single paint scheme is always ideal- Multiple schemes will inevitably lead to mixed trains which look terrible. If they repaint all the LD equipment while leaving the Corridor equipment in phase 4, the intermediate distance trains will look terrible. (Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Palmetto, Carolinian, Pennsylvanian, "Federal", Possibly Vermonter if it gets baggage, etc ) 

Amtrak should never have messed with this phase 3 absurdity. I don't think "Back to the 80s" is the image Amtrak wants to be projecting. (Do we get Pistachio green, goldenrod, brown and neon orange everywhere again on the interiors??)


----------



## Bob Dylan

As Ryan said, it takes time (and money!) to get the fleet painted so enjoy the new cars as they come into service!

Lots of youngsters talk about the Rainbo Trains from the early 70s, but as one who grew up riding them on the Class Is and during the Early Amtrak days, I am glad I have those memories!

I totally agree that we don't need to go back to those hideous colors that were inside the cars during the 70s and 80s!!


----------



## Seaboard92

I love the look of IVb it looks professional. But the way amtrak is trying to market itself as America's Railroad phase IIIb works the best. It's a patriotic scheme. And we were all used to it back in the day anyway.


----------



## NE933

R30A said:


> A single paint scheme is always ideal- Multiple schemes will inevitably lead to mixed trains which look terrible. If they repaint all the LD equipment while leaving the Corridor equipment in phase 4, the intermediate distance trains will look terrible. (Adirondack, Maple Leaf, Palmetto, Carolinian, Pennsylvanian, "Federal", Possibly Vermonter if it gets baggage, etc )
> 
> Amtrak should never have messed with this phase 3 absurdity. I don't think "Back to the 80s" is the image Amtrak wants to be projecting. (Do we get Pistachio green, goldenrod, brown and neon orange everywhere again on the interiors??)


Well, R30A, one doesn't have to be smitten with the 80's as much as me (that was my favorite decade), try to think objectively: it was a time of massive infusion of new equipment and grand, victorious-toned advertising. Riding on one of Amtrak's 800 new railcars (or even the Heritage fleet) pulled by one of 250 new locomotives on great track, relatively on time, was a sort of life altering experience for the better. Trains were coming back strong, "America Is Getting Into Training". The future was optimistic, or so it seemed. The brown and maroon seats and rugs were a bit dated towards the end, but so now is the grey and navy. The interiors need a bit more flair and color: I say go with an interior scheme of the Metroliner, which had cobalt seats in coach and scarlet in the Club.

The reason for the nostalgic absurdity is during times of trial and lack of joy, you run to what's familiar. The current scheme is wearing out it's welcome in my eyes and someone should be thinking about possible ideas for Phase 6.


----------



## NE933

Seaboard92 said:


> I love the look of IVb it looks professional. But the way amtrak is trying to market itself as America's Railroad phase IIIb works the best. It's a patriotic scheme. And we were all used to it back in the day anyway.


Be careful of anything "looking professional", which has the same face value of terms like "all natural" and "real flavored". I want my professionals to be competant, compassionate, and savvy, know when to walk a tightrope between a baby's touch and kicking a** if necessary. As I translate this to Amtrak, the scheme has to look pleasant and on solid ground, convey peace of mind and tranquility, perhaps stir up happy excitement, and not be overly dull nor flamboyant.


----------



## Notelvis

Spotted this afternoon (March 25, 2015) departing Durham, NC on Amtrak #79. This is a minute out of the station and I did not see whether the Heritage Baggage or the Viewliner was being used. Perhaps this is a shakedown run for the Viewliner.

Regardless, the shiny car (on an otherwise dirty consist) in throwback scheme stood out in a not so good way -


----------



## Acela150

Let me address this Phase IIIb nonsense.. There is no such thing.. It's phase III with a reflective strip that was a different color when Phase III was originally out. Nothing is different about it.. STOP calling it Phase IIIb!!!!


----------



## edjbox

How long will the heritage cars be on protect duty?


----------



## ronkstevens

Bring back the paisley seats from when the Amfleet I's were brand new 

(admittedly, I do miss the side headrest padding on those seats)


----------



## PerRock

Acela150 said:


> Let me address this Phase IIIb nonsense.. There is no such thing.. It's phase III with a reflective strip that was a different color when Phase III was originally out. Nothing is different about it.. STOP calling it Phase IIIb!!!!


Actually it's a little bit more then that.

The Red & Blue stripes are a different shade of their respective colors (the originals were a paler shade), The Reflective stripe as you mentioned is different (original was very inconsistent, I know of 3 different styles), and the whole striping is narrower. Then we come to the logo. The original III didn't have the Chevron on it really at all, the new Chevron logo, now has a white outline, uses Frutiger as the font (rather then Helvetica), the text is blue, and it's on the train cars now.

So Phase IIIb makes a lot of sense, especially after looking at the changes from Phase IV to IVb.

As a designer, this whole 'Amtrak America' thing reeks of design by committee. For one the logo it's self looks like someones secretary did it in Paint, The notion that certain cars will get III while others stay in IVb, even the idea to use an 'old' design. I feel like they went with "John's secretary did a nice logo, lets use that. Oh and Sue want to keep some cars in the current paint scheme. Do you have any request Bill? Sure we can use an old paint scheme. Karen do you have a preference as to which one?"

Instead they should have just hired a design firm (like they did for the Acela) and said "To go with the arrival of some new equpment we'd like to roll out 'Amtrak America' branding on our long distance fleet. Can you make us a brand for that?"

On a related note, I've started a personal project updating the Phase IVb paint scheme, calling it Phase VI. It's still a work in progress but here is how it's coming:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwoszLS0nWxPSWpOa283UDh6NjQ&authuser=0

peter


----------



## mgl1978

Spotting report from Alexandria on 3/25/15

#19 Cresent




#90 Palmetto




#97 no new viewliners w/ heritage baggage.

#66 no new viewliners w/ heritage baggage. It atleast had it's baggage back. It had been running without it regularly.


----------



## StriderGDM

mgl1978 said:


> #97 no new viewliners w/ heritage baggage.
> 
> #66 no new viewliners w/ heritage baggage. It atleast had it's baggage back. It had been running without it regularly.


Sort of makes sense it might get its baggage back. With more Viewliners coming on line, the crunch for the Heritage baggage cars has been lessened. Keep in mind, it appears at least some were allowed to have their 90 day inspection lapse in anticipation of replacements. There's probably some whose inspections are still current that can be freed up for use until more Viewliners come out of NY.


----------



## Bus Nut

Well, I know this is not up for a vote but I think the paint scheme on the new bags looks AWESOME. I like that they stand out. They're new! Kaboom! Maybe the average riders will think twice and pressure their congresscritters to give Amtrak more money to replace more of the fleet.

Maybe the Amtrak America logo is a little iffy but it works well enough to me. I don't think Boardman wanted to weather a storm like Amtrak suffered when they hired that firm to do the branding for "Acela". Everyone loves it now but Amtrak and "Acela" were absolutely blasted in the press and online at the outset. Since Amtrak has to deal with grandstanding Reps complaining about Amtrak understandably hiring talent to design better food, oh, the horrors, edible food onboard? it just smacks of an unforced error to put something like that out to consult. They have an in-house marketing dep't. It's serviceable. Maybe not quite as good as I've seen some of the kids today right out of college do, but there's no guarantee a consultant or marketing firm won't turn in terrible work either. Seen it happen enough.


----------



## jis

I think the problem with Acela branding was not so much with what is now known as Acela Express, but more so with the attempt to rebrand the Regionals to Acela Regional. In effect that diluted the Acela brand and people got confused about what is higher speed and what is same old same old with lipstick on a pig. That is why the Regionals were rebranded back to Northeast Regional. They used to be Northeast Direct before the Acela Regional misadventure. They had also talked about rebranding things like the Clockers and Keystones as Acela Commuter. Fortunately that never came to pass.


----------



## VentureForth

They should have matched the existing scheme first, then repainted the cars as the trainset livery is updated. We're only talking a few stripes here. The notion that you paint the New Stuff New than let the rest catch up is preposterous. By then, you'll have dirty VLB's.


----------



## sitzplatz17

PerRock said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me address this Phase IIIb nonsense.. There is no such thing.. It's phase III with a reflective strip that was a different color when Phase III was originally out. Nothing is different about it.. STOP calling it Phase IIIb!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it's a little bit more then that.
> 
> The Red & Blue stripes are a different shade of their respective colors (the originals were a paler shade), The Reflective stripe as you mentioned is different (original was very inconsistent, I know of 3 different styles), and the whole striping is narrower. Then we come to the logo. The original III didn't have the Chevron on it really at all, the new Chevron logo, now has a white outline, uses Frutiger as the font (rather then Helvetica), the text is blue, and it's on the train cars now.
> 
> So Phase IIIb makes a lot of sense, especially after looking at the changes from Phase IV to IVb.
> 
> As a designer, this whole 'Amtrak America' thing reeks of design by committee. For one the logo it's self looks like someones secretary did it in Paint, The notion that certain cars will get III while others stay in IVb, even the idea to use an 'old' design. I feel like they went with "John's secretary did a nice logo, lets use that. Oh and Sue want to keep some cars in the current paint scheme. Do you have any request Bill? Sure we can use an old paint scheme. Karen do you have a preference as to which one?"
> 
> Instead they should have just hired a design firm (like they did for the Acela) and said "To go with the arrival of some new equpment we'd like to roll out 'Amtrak America' branding on our long distance fleet. Can you make us a brand for that?"
> 
> On a related note, I've started a personal project updating the Phase IVb paint scheme, calling it Phase VI. It's still a work in progress but here is how it's coming:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwoszLS0nWxPSWpOa283UDh6NjQ&authuser=0
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

Looks good!

Just one little bit of feedback: There's a typo on page 6 under "Amtrak Silver" - "Used primarily as a* thrid* color when needed." Third is spelled wrong. h34r:

Keep up the good work though, I really like the Adirondack seasonal logo!


----------



## PerRock

VentureForth said:


> They should have matched the existing scheme first, then repainted the cars as the trainset livery is updated. We're only talking a few stripes here. The notion that you paint the New Stuff New than let the rest catch up is preposterous. By then, you'll have dirty VLB's.


Really the notion that you paint cars at all these days (at least in Amtrak's case) isn't entirely true. Most, if not all of the striping is a big sticker they stick on, as are all the lettering & logos.



sitzplatz17 said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a related note, I've started a personal project updating the Phase IVb paint scheme, calling it Phase VI. It's still a work in progress but here is how it's coming:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwoszLS0nWxPSWpOa283UDh6NjQ&authuser=0
> 
> peter
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good!
> 
> Just one little bit of feedback: There's a typo on page 6 under "Amtrak Silver" - "Used primarily as a* thrid* color when needed." Third is spelled wrong. h34r:
> 
> Keep up the good work though, I really like the Adirondack seasonal logo!
Click to expand...

Thanks, Figured I had a type somewhere... I'm a terrible speller. If you want more info & the occasional update, I post here about the project:

http://s4.zetaboards.com/amtkz/topic/10262453


----------



## PupfosterG

Great work Peter! At some point everything will match, I guess what stands out to me is the shape of the car compared to others. How will new baggage car look with Superliner cars?


----------



## SarahZ

PerRock said:


> On a related note, I've started a personal project updating the Phase IVb paint scheme, calling it Phase VI. It's still a work in progress but here is how it's coming:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwoszLS0nWxPSWpOa283UDh6NjQ&authuser=0
> 
> peter


I love the different logos for the different routes. 

One minor thing, though - for the Empire Service, Lady Liberty needs to be moved over one letter. Right now, it reads as "Emipre".


----------



## PerRock

SarahZ said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a related note, I've started a personal project updating the Phase IVb paint scheme, calling it Phase VI. It's still a work in progress but here is how it's coming:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwoszLS0nWxPSWpOa283UDh6NjQ&authuser=0
> 
> peter
> 
> 
> 
> I love the different logos for the different routes.
> 
> One minor thing, though - for the Empire Service, Lady Liberty needs to be moved over one letter. Right now, it reads as "Emipre".
Click to expand...

Ya that one I knew about, in fact it's already been fixed, I just haven't updated the pdf file with the corrected logo. I'm hanging off updating it until I have completed some more pieces of the project.

peter


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> They should have matched the existing scheme first, then repainted the cars as the trainset livery is updated. We're only talking a few stripes here. The notion that you paint the New Stuff New than let the rest catch up is preposterous. By then, you'll have dirty VLB's.


"Painting" the new cars twice sounds wildly inefficient.


----------



## Ziv

The vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't know the difference between any of the color schemes and other than the homogeneity of a well matched consist, most wouldn't care. I would say paint/decal them any way the future look is intended to be. Don't set yourself up to have to paint them twice.

I hope Amtrak can find a way to finance MORE of the VLII's. But I imagine that is a pipe dream. They would probably already have to have the funding in place. Piggybacking 15 or 20 more sleepers onto this deal would offer a lot of options, though.


----------



## StriderGDM

Ziv said:


> The vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't know the difference between any of the color schemes and other than the homogeneity of a well matched consist, most wouldn't care. I would say paint/decal them any way the future look is intended to be. Don't set yourself up to have to paint them twice.
> 
> I hope Amtrak can find a way to finance MORE of the VLII's. But I imagine that is a pipe dream. They would probably already have to have the funding in place. Piggybacking 15 or 20 more sleepers onto this deal would offer a lot of options, though.


There is in theory an option for an additional 70 cars. There's been no word and while it's doubtful, there's some evidence that it may be possible to exercise the option.

70 more cars would been a decent increase in fleet size and could definitely mean more trains with sleepers and diners (restored Three Rivers anyone?) and more sleepers on existing trains.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

StriderGDM said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> The vast majority of Amtrak passengers don't know the difference between any of the color schemes and other than the homogeneity of a well matched consist, most wouldn't care. I would say paint/decal them any way the future look is intended to be. Don't set yourself up to have to paint them twice.
> 
> I hope Amtrak can find a way to finance MORE of the VLII's. But I imagine that is a pipe dream. They would probably already have to have the funding in place. Piggybacking 15 or 20 more sleepers onto this deal would offer a lot of options, though.
> 
> 
> 
> There is in theory an option for an additional 70 cars. There's been no word and while it's doubtful, there's some evidence that it may be possible to exercise the option.
> 
> 70 more cars would been a decent increase in fleet size and could definitely mean more trains with sleepers and diners (restored Three Rivers anyone?) and more sleepers on existing trains.
Click to expand...

I've figured that Amtrak has to keep the focus on Priority #1 for new equipment, namely, the Acela IIs.

Only if they luck up -- the way the Midwestern States did when the bid for the bilevels came in a hundred million or whatever below the budgeted figure -- and have a Billion Dollar bid come in that leaves a little funding left over, then a few coins could go to buying more Viewliners.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

International Railway Journal

Thursday, July 03, 2014

Amtrak issues RFP for Acela fleet replacement Written by Douglas John Bowen

​inShare






 Joe Calisi
AMTRAK has issued a request for proposals (RFP) for 28 high-speed trains, which will replace the Acela Express fleet on the Washington DC – New York – Boston Northeast Corridor (NEC).
...

The closing date for expressions of interest is October 1.

...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So as seen above, the RFP was early July, with bids due by Oct. 1. Amtrak presumably has had bids in hand for six months come next week.

When will we learn of the Acela II equipment bid?

My poor googling skills don't turn up n easy answer, but I vaguely recall that something was supposed to get announced, or something something, by the second quarter of this year. Shall I start standing on my tip toes in eager anticipation, or just chill some more?


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is in theory an option for an additional 70 cars. There's been no word and while it's doubtful, there's some evidence that it may be possible to exercise the option.
> 
> 70 more cars would been a decent increase in fleet size and could definitely mean more trains with sleepers and diners (restored Three Rivers anyone?) and more sleepers on existing trains.
> 
> 
> 
> I've figured that Amtrak has to keep the focus on Priority #1 for new equipment, namely, the Acela IIs.....
> 
> When will we learn of the Acela II equipment bid?
Click to expand...

We have threads on the Next Gen HSR, aka the Acela II, RFP, including this one: Acela II RFP information announcement. I expect Amtrak and the vendors are waiting on the FRA waiver request. But if you want to discuss the Acela II bids, I suggest it be taken there to keep the Viewliner II thread somewhere close to on topic.

As for the V II options, they are not "in theory". It was stated back when the CAF contract was awarded, oh so many years ago, that there were options for 70 cars of so many of each type. And we have discussed the prospects for those options, oh so many times in this thread  . The odds appear to be long on even exercising a small number, let alone close to all 70. While it would be nice to see an order for 8 or 10 more cars, say 6 sleepers, 2 bag-dorms (for a total of 12 so the Crescent can be equipped along with the Cardinal and LSL), and 2 diner cars (to have enough for a restored Three Rivers plus attrition reserve), I don't expect to see it happen. Even 5 additional sleepers for a total of 30 new ones is unlikely from what I can tell.


----------



## Thirdrail7

edjbox said:


> How long will the heritage cars be on protect duty?


For quite some time. They are fanning out to initial terminals. When they reach their "drop dead" date, they will be retired.


----------



## Bus Nut

jis said:


> I think the problem with Acela branding was not so much with what is now known as Acela Express, but more so with the attempt to rebrand the Regionals to Acela Regional. In effect that diluted the Acela brand and people got confused about what is higher speed and what is same old same old with lipstick on a pig. That is why the Regionals were rebranded back to Northeast Regional. They used to be Northeast Direct before the Acela Regional misadventure. They had also talked about rebranding things like the Clockers and Keystones as Acela Commuter. Fortunately that never came to pass.


That was silly and I'm glad they brought back NorthEast Regional. But, no, there was a lot of negative attention for Amtrak when "Acela" was announced, including people ridiculing that the consultant had put a .wav file on the splash page of the Acela website to tell the journalists how to pronounce the made up word "Acela". (This was when putting a sound file on your website was a kewl goo-gaw that showed you were a l33t geek.) Everybody got over it pretty fast and moved to all the drama with the crack wheels/brakes whatever it was. It's been almost two decades and the name has stood the test of time. Just think, Parisians called the Eiffel tower an eyesore when it went up but now they embrace it as an icon of Paris.


----------



## Bus Nut

VentureForth said:


> They should have matched the existing scheme first, then repainted the cars as the trainset livery is updated. We're only talking a few stripes here. The notion that you paint the New Stuff New than let the rest catch up is preposterous. By then, you'll have dirty VLB's.


Tell that to my employer ... Heck, my previous employer.

Execs like to fiddle with paint schemes, especially to leave their "mark" from their predecessor. And you get the scheme you ultimately want on it when it's new even if you know it's going to take years to update the old stuff. Those exterior jobs aren't cheap.


----------



## Amtrak172

I'm sure this has been asked before but what trains will be staying in Phase IVb and not updated to Phase IIIb?


----------



## Guest

PupfosterG said:


> At some point everything will match, I guess what stands out to me is the shape of the car compared to others. How will new baggage car look with Superliner cars?


I think it will still look like a shape/style mismatch between double level cars (Superliner) and a single level baggage car (Viewliner), even if there is a transdorm in the middle.


----------



## MikefromCrete

PupfosterG said:


> Great work Peter! At some point everything will match, I guess what stands out to me is the shape of the car compared to others. How will new baggage car look with Superliner cars?


Pretty much like the Heritage baggage cars look like with Superliners. Are you suggesting Amtrak needs double-deck baggage cars to match up with the Superliners? This nit-picking over paint schemes is just out of control.


----------



## PerRock

MikefromCrete said:


> PupfosterG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great work Peter! At some point everything will match, I guess what stands out to me is the shape of the car compared to others. How will new baggage car look with Superliner cars?
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much like the Heritage baggage cars look like with Superliners. Are you suggesting Amtrak needs double-deck baggage cars to match up with the Superliners? This nit-picking over paint schemes is just out of control.
Click to expand...

In a sense they do:







peter


----------



## Ryan

MikefromCrete said:


> This nit-picking over paint schemes is just out of control.


It's somewhat ridiculous at this point, yes.


----------



## keelhauled

PerRock said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PupfosterG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great work Peter! At some point everything will match, I guess what stands out to me is the shape of the car compared to others. How will new baggage car look with Superliner cars?
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much like the Heritage baggage cars look like with Superliners. Are you suggesting Amtrak needs double-deck baggage cars to match up with the Superliners? This nit-picking over paint schemes is just out of control.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In a sense they do:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

Yeah but do the P42s match? No? Better just shut the whole thing down, no ones gonna ride it now


----------



## Ryan

PerRock said:


> In a sense they do:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peter


That's not a heritage baggage car.


----------



## CHamilton

RyanS said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This nit-picking over paint schemes is just out of control.
> 
> 
> 
> It's somewhat ridiculous at this point, yes.
Click to expand...

Amen. Considering all of the issues passenger rail faces in this country, paint schemes are at the bottom of my list of things to worry about.


----------



## jis

People have too much free time on their hands! They got to do something, so worry about a whole host of things that don't matter much. The rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic syndrome


----------



## SarahZ

RyanS said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This nit-picking over paint schemes is just out of control.
> 
> 
> 
> It's somewhat ridiculous at this point, yes.
Click to expand...

Seriously. I recognize Amtrak is a brand and the paint should look nice, but I spend all of my time _inside_ the car. I'd rather they focus on refurbishing the interiors rather than painting (and re-painting) all of their rolling stock to appeal to the people who don't like a certain font or color.

I'm not crazy about AA's new look, but it doesn't affect me one bit, so why care?


----------



## Ziv

I agree, Sarah. I wanted to live in one of the best parts of Capital Hill in DC years ago but could only afford to live in the worst building on the block. But the good part was that every time I looked out of one of my windows I was looking at the beautiful townhomes around me, and they were looking at my ugly, cubical eyesore of a building. 



SarahZ said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> This nit-picking over paint schemes is just out of control.
> 
> 
> 
> It's somewhat ridiculous at this point, yes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seriously. I recognize Amtrak is a brand and the paint should look nice, but I spend all of my time _inside_ the car. I'd rather they focus on refurbishing the interiors rather than painting (and re-painting) all of their rolling stock to appeal to the people who don't like a certain font or color.
> 
> I'm not crazy about AA's new look, but it doesn't affect me one bit, so why care?
Click to expand...


----------



## Palmetto

Some people here apparently don't remember the pre-Amtrak days when some long distance trains had CARS FROM MORE THAN ONE RAILROAD.

Oh my God! The Federal has Pennsylvania RR cars mixed in with New Haven RR cars. That's just awful. :lol:


----------



## Steve4031

I would prefer that the interior is clean, the heat or AC, working and decent food in the diner.


----------



## City of Miami

Today's Cardinal 50 had a new bag car - 61012 - in service. The interior racks didn't appear to be in use.


----------



## DryCreek

Steve4031 said:


> I would prefer that the interior is clean, the heat or AC, working and decent food in the diner.


And on time.


----------



## PupfosterG

No, not suggesting bi-level baggage, just commented on shape of car. They appear to flare outward, maybe not the best explination. From a photogenic view, a shining ribbon of steel going down the track would have a vll car which may stand out as different. But I agree, inside, where I send my time as does the general public is the place for attention to details.


----------



## 2.0

RyanS said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> In a sense they do:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peter
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a heritage baggage car.
Click to expand...

But its pretty close to being a double-decker baggage car that matches the Superliners, which was being requested/suggested, no?


----------



## Phil

Just fyi: also cannot use the lower bag racks because the bags would then be against the floor heat which could be dangerous... Have been instructed to leave lower racks up with the explicit intention of keeping bags from being against the floor heat.


----------



## George K

Phil said:


> Just fyi: also cannot use the lower bag racks because the bags would then be against the floor heat which could be dangerous... Have been instructed to leave lower racks up with the explicit intention of keeping bags from being against the floor heat.


Sooo...I assume nothing can be on the floor either, right? Looking at pics posted earlier, the bottom rack appears to be about 3-4" above the floor. How hot does that floor get?

I don't get it.


----------



## printman2000

Phil said:


> Just fyi: also cannot use the lower bag racks because the bags would then be against the floor heat which could be dangerous... Have been instructed to leave lower racks up with the explicit intention of keeping bags from being against the floor heat.


Would not the bags being on the floor make them even closer to the floor heat?


----------



## Big Iron

City of Miami said:


> Today's Cardinal 50 had a new bag car - 61012 - in service. The interior racks didn't appear to be in use.


Today's 89 had one as well. Can't speak to use of racks as it was on the move. Looked great.


----------



## MattW

George K said:


> Phil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just fyi: also cannot use the lower bag racks because the bags would then be against the floor heat which could be dangerous... Have been instructed to leave lower racks up with the explicit intention of keeping bags from being against the floor heat.
> 
> 
> 
> Sooo...I assume nothing can be on the floor either, right? Looking at pics posted earlier, the bottom rack appears to be about 3-4" above the floor. How hot does that floor get?
> 
> I don't get it.
Click to expand...




printman2000 said:


> Phil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just fyi: also cannot use the lower bag racks because the bags would then be against the floor heat which could be dangerous... Have been instructed to leave lower racks up with the explicit intention of keeping bags from being against the floor heat.
> 
> 
> 
> Would not the bags being on the floor make them even closer to the floor heat?
Click to expand...

I don't believe it's full-floor heat, it's more "strip heaters" (I don't know the proper name) that run along the lower corners between the floor and walls. I don't remember seeing them right off hand in Amfleets, but I know Atlanta's MARTA trains have them, they can get pretty hot sometimes, too hot to touch even.


----------



## edjbox

Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?


----------



## George K

MattW said:


> I don't believe it's full-floor heat, it's more "strip heaters" (I don't know the proper name) that run along the lower corners between the floor and walls. I don't remember seeing them right off hand in Amfleets, but I know Atlanta's MARTA trains have them, they can get pretty hot sometimes, too hot to touch even.


Well. That would be a serious design flaw, wouldn't it? I mean, not being able to use the baggage cars for...baggage? Surely, I would think that the heat, if electric, would be adjustable.


----------



## jis

edjbox said:


> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?


No.
Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?


----------



## Guest

George K said:


> MattW said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe it's full-floor heat, it's more "strip heaters" (I don't know the proper name) that run along the lower corners between the floor and walls. I don't remember seeing them right off hand in Amfleets, but I know Atlanta's MARTA trains have them, they can get pretty hot sometimes, too hot to touch even.
> 
> 
> 
> Well. That would be a serious design flaw, wouldn't it? I mean, not being able to use the baggage cars for...baggage? Surely, I would think that the heat, if electric, would be adjustable.
Click to expand...

The floor heat strips are on the sides. It is a design flaw if it heats up bags against them. That could potentially cause a fire. The floor heat is not adjustable, set to maintain 50 degrees. So a work around would be to turn it off and not have heat. When the temperature is above 50 it should go off automatically but it could just be turned off in the warmer months or transition to warmer months, and the placement of the bags would not be an issue those times of year if the heat was turned off. Of course the heat could be left off in the winter too.....


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Eastern Europe had a sleeping car fire due to the electric heating strip cooking off a can of hair spray inside a bag. At the time no bagged car on the train so the pax filled up the room with there bags. Sometime in the night the can cooked off, one sleeper and one couchette burn Down to the wheels. Several pax never made it out. That national railroad is now running bagged cars on all long distance trains now.

My info is dated, so it may not be true at this time.


----------



## mgl1978

Here's my spotting report from today from Washignton.

#80, #91 & #92 all ran with viewliner baggages.

#29 ran with 2 heritage baggages.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I see a shelf being used.


----------



## edjbox

jis said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?
Click to expand...

They did have both during the first couple of days of operation, that's why I asked


----------



## AmtrakBlue

edjbox said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They did have both during the first couple of days of operation, that's why I asked
Click to expand...

I think they were deadheading some to be protect cars at the different yards.


----------



## jis

edjbox said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They did have both during the first couple of days of operation, that's why I asked
Click to expand...

Quite a leap from "they had both on a few trains" to "new Viewliner baggage cars need a deadhead Heritage car" don't you think?


----------



## Ryan

Rail fans are really good at making leaps like that. 

While we were sitting in WAS we saw 50 roll through with a single new bag. Still don't know what's behind us, maybe I'll catch a peek when the sun comes up.


----------



## Ziv

So they can use the upper shelf for sure, which is cool, but the lower shelf appears to be up. Would that be because it would keep the bags from coming into contact with the heater? If that is the way the baggage cars work in the winter that doesn't seem to be a huge problem. It would be nice to get the heavy bags up off the floor a couple inches, without having to lift them onto the upper shelf, but the floor of a car heated to near 50 degrees is a lot better than a baggage car full of drifting snow.

It is nice to see Amtrak getting new cars and locomotives. This is a good year for them.



mgl1978 said:


> Here's my spotting report from today from Washignton.
> 
> #80, #91 & #92 all ran with viewliner baggages.
> 
> #29 ran with 2 heritage baggages.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC00002.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC00013.JPG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC00014.JPG


----------



## rrdude

I am still eagerly anticipating the level of foam distribution when the new Viewliner *Sleepers* and D*iners* start appearing outside of the CAF property.

I gotta admit, I'm jazzed too, even at the Bags, and *know for a fact* that I will be "inspecting" the Viewliner bag when I board the Cap in May. But it still cracks me up that we all get this excited about hunks of aluminum on steel wheels.

Now, if Amtrak ever ordered and *took delivery of *new domes or "real" lounge cars, me thinks I'd have a coronary event.


----------



## VentureForth

jis said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They did have both during the first couple of days of operation, that's why I asked
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quite a leap from "they had both on a few trains" to "new Viewliner baggage cars need a deadhead Heritage car" don't you think?
Click to expand...

And now to get past the sarcasm, you will likely continue to see heritage units deadheading as they are being relegated to the spare and/or scrap yard upon replacement by the VLBs.


----------



## 2.0

jis said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?
Click to expand...

Another imaginary requirement?

I seem to remember back when Amtrak first moved the Viewliner sleepers to the back of the Silver's consist, there was a problem with the Viewliners "tail wagging" back there. The solution was to then also move the (heritage) baggage car to behind the Viewliners to stop this.

So, I think this is very valid question. Since the a Viewliner sleeper had this "tail wagging" problem if it was the last car in the consist, do the new Viewliner baggage cars have the same problem? If so, would the same solution of having to put a heritage (baggage) car back there be still valid?

I mean, I could easily see that while Amtrak was running both a new Viewliner baggage car with an old heritage baggage car at the back of the consist, intended to be simply a backup, might have been masking this forgotten problem.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

2.0 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another imaginary requirement?
> 
> I seem to remember back when Amtrak first moved the Viewliner sleepers to the back of the Silver's consist, there was a problem with the Viewliners "tail wagging" back there. The solution was to then also move the (heritage) baggage car to behind the Viewliners to stop this.
> 
> So, I think this is very valid question. Since the a Viewliner sleeper had this "tail wagging" problem if it was the last car in the consist, do the new Viewliner baggage cars have the same problem? If so, would the same solution of having to put a heritage (baggage) car back there be still valid?
> 
> I mean, I could easily see that while Amtrak was running both a new Viewliner baggage car with an old heritage baggage car at the back of the consist, intended to be simply a backup, might have been masking this forgotten problem.
Click to expand...

I believe they put the bags on the back so that the passengers would not feel the tail wagging in the sleepers. I don't think they care if the baggage feels the tail wagging.


----------



## Ryan

Exactly. It was equally a problem when the Amfleets were on the rear, we had an awful trip to ATL one time on the Crescent riding in the very last row of the last car. Very uncomfortable.

We have a single Viewliner bag on the rear of 97(29).


----------



## Ryan

... And here's what it looks like inside:


----------



## George K

So, I don't get it. The floor gets too hot to use the lower racks, but it's OK to put luggage directly on the floor.

AMIRITE?


----------



## Railroad Bill

Not sure if it has already been reported, but saw a new baggage car on the rear of 42 Pennsylvanian this morning as it passed through Cresson, Pa. Of course those of us who like the railfan window in BC would not have been happy


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

No the lower rack is in the up position to prevent the bags for making contact with the heating units. So they can get warm, but not so hot to catch fire.


----------



## jis

2.0 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the new viewliner baggage cars still need a deadhead heritage car with them or not?
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> Did they ever? Or was it yet another imaginary requirement in the minds of railfans?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another imaginary requirement?
> I seem to remember back when Amtrak first moved the Viewliner sleepers to the back of the Silver's consist, there was a problem with the Viewliners "tail wagging" back there. The solution was to then also move the (heritage) baggage car to behind the Viewliners to stop this.
> 
> So, I think this is very valid question. Since the a Viewliner sleeper had this "tail wagging" problem if it was the last car in the consist, do the new Viewliner baggage cars have the same problem? If so, would the same solution of having to put a heritage (baggage) car back there be still valid?
> 
> I mean, I could easily see that while Amtrak was running both a new Viewliner baggage car with an old heritage baggage car at the back of the consist, intended to be simply a backup, might have been masking this forgotten problem.
Click to expand...

Yes. Lack of understanding of the original issue can cause one to arrive at erroneous conclusions. That is quite understandable.  
So yes - imaginary requirement 

BTW, looks like the racks are being used after all ! There goes another apparently unsubstantiated assertion about them being unusable that was touted here insistently, duly defenestrated!


----------



## OBS

Amtrak issued an employee advisory stating that as of March 30, the Viewliner II baggage fleet, based out of Miami, is now operating on all single level trains East of Chicago. Expansion to Western routes will occur as more equipment becomes available and additional training to new areas has been provided....


----------



## StriderGDM

OBS said:


> Amtrak issued an employee advisory stating that as of March 30, the Viewliner II baggage fleet, based out of Miami, is now operating on all single level trains East of Chicago. Expansion to Western routes will occur as more equipment becomes available and additional training to new areas has been provided....


Good news. Any word when the next batch from CAF is due?


----------



## tommylicious

who cares about baggage...when are the pax cars rolling out???


----------



## Guest

Can't wait to go through another 50+ pages of speculation and whining when the next type appears for final testing and service introduction. "What could they possibly be training for? If they can make a bed in the old car, surely they can make a bed in the new car!"


----------



## adamj023

Glad to hear that east coast has the new baggage cars and hopefully it will spread further. Cant wait to see the new sleepers and diners which should mean even faster train speeds and better service levels. Took Amtrak ages to get to this point and each and every day will mean new viewliner ii cars and even new ACS sprinters and the like. New schedules for April 6th show faster times and should improve even further I hope.

Diners have some shaky issues and seem to be at the end of life. Read a report how the diner car was shaking badly but fortunately it isnt a car one remains on long.

After diners and baggage cars, will be nice to see retrofits of the Amfleet II or new cars.


----------



## Seaboard92

What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars


----------



## Amtrak172

Seaboard92 said:


> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars


Sorry dude, the amfleets aren't going anywhere for a long time. They may be old, but they're in great shape and not giving Amtrak any problems (that we know of)


----------



## Fan Railer

Amtrak172 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry dude, the amfleets aren't going anywhere for a long time. They may be old, but they're in great shape and not giving Amtrak any problems (that we know of)
Click to expand...

No to mention that there are no replacements planned until at least 2020.


----------



## sitzplatz17

I kind of like the Amfleets actually.

If just wish the restrooms were kept in a little better condition and perhaps bigger windows (obviously one of those is easier done than the other!!)

Otherwise I find the Amfleets quite cosy.


----------



## Guest

Seaboard92 said:


> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars


Since they have manual doors putting them on the NEC would not useful.


----------



## Guest

Amtrak172 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry dude, the amfleets aren't going anywhere for a long time. They may be old, but they're in great shape and not giving Amtrak any problems (that we know of)
Click to expand...

The Amfleet 1s are not in great shape. I would say they are in fair to poor shape. The Amfleet 2s are not in great shape but they are better shape. I would say good shape. Amfleet 1s do need to be replaced but Amtrak prioritized new cars for the less used routes, long distance. I guess because people keep booking the Regionals.


----------



## Amfleeter

I would agree - I'm acquainted with a Conductor or two who aren't fans of the Amfleets, considering them to be worn out (They aren't particularly fans of the P32 on the DC-Norfolk run, either). Overall, they're still quite nice cars inside, and honestly nicer than most other single level coaches everywhere else, with the very generous padding and seat size. Certainly better than an airliner cabin, even domestic Business or First, when it comes to plain comfort (and to a degree, amenities, considering food service cars, lounges, better window size, and AC power at every seat.)


----------



## keelhauled

Yeah but is anyone going to try and argue that any of the Amfleets are in worse shape than the Heritage cars? They chose to replace the 60 year old oddball equipment first instead of the well maintained and reliable coaches and oh god how many times does that need to be explained.


----------



## Acela150

Guest said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars
> 
> 
> 
> Since they have manual doors putting them on the NEC would not useful.
Click to expand...

The Amcan II's have manual doors..... So what's the difference??


----------



## Ryan

Fan Railer said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry dude, the amfleets aren't going anywhere for a long time. They may be old, but they're in great shape and not giving Amtrak any problems (that we know of)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No to mention that there are no replacements planned until at least 2020.
Click to expand...

That's only 5 years away. I'd be willing to bet that within 10 years we'll see new-build single level coaches roaming the system.


----------



## MattW

Seaboard92 said:


> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars


There are also more than three times the number of Amfleet Is as Amfleet IIs.


----------



## Guest

Acela150 said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I would have liked to have seen would have been Viewliner coaches built. Then we could get rid of the Amfleet II coaches from LD and put them on corridor trains to replace aging Amfleet I cars
> 
> 
> 
> Since they have manual doors putting them on the NEC would not useful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Amcan II's have manual doors..... So what's the difference??
Click to expand...

What is an Amcan II? In any case manual doors require a crew member at the door to open and close the door. On Amfleet I s the doors in the whole consist are keyed open by one crew member at one door. The other doors don't have to be manned by a crew member to open and close. Also Amfleet II only has doors at one end of the coach. Amflleet II has doors at both ends. On the congested NEC with trains carrying 400 - 500 passengers manual doors would hinder operations.


----------



## PerRock

Guest said:


> What is an Amcan II?


"Amcan" is a nickname for the Amfleets and related equipment, so called because the round look is similar to a can of food.
Peter


----------



## NewBags

Weight limit for the shelves has been increased to 10 bags/500lbs. Progress!


----------



## StriderGDM

NewBags said:


> Weight limit for the shelves has been increased to 10 bags/500lbs. Progress!


They must have needed some time to ripen!


----------



## neroden

Just rode the Lake Shore Limited on Friday (end of a long and complicated trip). Viewliner Baggage car at each end. One of the lower shelves was in use (I peeked in through the back window of my sleeper). There wasn't very much baggage in that car. It was the NY baggage car. I'm guessing, with the new shelves in full operation, that a bag-dorm would be sufficient for peak loads at either end. We also had the #8400 Viewliner diner on that train. It felt a bit like the future.


----------



## Navy 118

Anyone heard if they have fixed the securing of baggage issue that the first ones placed into service had? (baggs falling off the racks etc)


----------



## Steve4031

neroden said:


> Just rode the Lake Shore Limited on Friday (end of a long and complicated trip). Viewliner Baggage car at each end. One of the lower shelves was in use (I peeked in through the back window of my sleeper). There wasn't very much baggage in that car. It was the NY baggage car. I'm guessing, with the new shelves in full operation, that a bag-dorm would be sufficient for peak loads at either end. We also had the #8400 Viewliner diner on that train. It felt a bit like the future.


I rode the same consist on Monday from Chicago to nyp. Enjoyed 4800 immensely.


----------



## MattW

Finally got to see my first Viewbag! 61028 I believe was bringing up the Crescent's markers this morning as my MARTA train passed it it CP-Armour just north of the Atlanta Amtrak station. Now that I've seen it in person, I agree even more that Phase-III was NOT the way to go!


----------



## neroden

I cannot describe how much I do not care about paint schemes. At least they aren't all greenish-black (Pennsy paint scheme), or covered in soot (entire coal-burning era).

It's all decals now anyway. Maybe bare steel is the way to go. Or if they're worried about graffiti, a transparent wrap.


----------



## PRR 60

neroden said:


> I cannot describe how much I do not care about paint schemes. At least they aren't all greenish-black (Pennsy paint scheme), or covered in soot (entire coal-burning era).
> 
> It's all decals now anyway. Maybe bare steel is the way to go. Or if they're worried about graffiti, a transparent wrap.


What Pennsy paint scheme was greenish-black? Pennsy was Tuscan Red, and it looked great.


----------



## Ryan

I presume he's talking about Brunswick Green:


----------



## Bob Dylan

Bill, you must have forgotten the Pennsy Green, there's still a few examples around although I admit that PRR Red and Gold is what you see most!

The Texas State Railroad, along with the Austin Steam Train, have several of the Red Coaches that run on their Steamer Tourist trains!!


----------



## Royal Blue

Spotted TWO new bag cars tonight rolling through my southwest DCA neighborhood tonight. The first was on the end of the southbound #19 Crescent. Immediately after the Crescent passed, the 2-hours-late northbound #80 Carolinian rolled through with a shiny new bag car on the end. Two for the price of one!


----------



## Palmetto

It's probably safe to say that by now, seeing a Budd baggage car is news in the East.


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> It's probably safe to say that by now, seeing a Budd baggage car is news in the East.


If they appear at all it is as a deadhead move to Hialeah or Beech Grove.


----------



## offroad437

We have 2 old bags sitting on the side in Nola. Guess as protect???


----------



## R30A

The Capitol Limited still has heritage baggages I believe, although there are a bunch sitting in Hialeah still, so I doubt that will be the case for long. 
Saw one in NC today, the one left over from the wreck. It and 185 are rerailed on a siding.


----------



## George K

Saw one of the new V2s sitting at the end of the LSL at CUS this evening. I was in a hurry to board the Metra, so I didn't snap a pic, but you still believe me, right?

RIGHT???


----------



## me_little_me

offroad437 said:


> We have 2 old bags sitting on the side in Nola. Guess as protect???


Did you offer them some help - like a meal or a taxi ride to the local Rescue Mission? :giggle: :giggle:


----------



## Guest

No I do not believe you. Sorry. It never happened. The viewliners are an illusion.


----------



## William W.

Yesterday's Cardinal (50) had a Viewliner bag car. I didn't catch the car number, unfortunately, as I was driving at the time.


----------



## Long Train Runnin'

I finally saw a new bag on the Silver Meteor from the NJ Turnpike just south of Secaucus train was lead by an ACS-64 the other 3 people in the car had no idea why I was so excited to see it. Then I watched their eyes glaze over as I explained how these were replacing cars that had been rolling since the 1950s, so seeing Amtrak finally get baggage cars that they ordered was a milestone of sorts.


----------



## Slasharoo

I wonder if the experiment going on with the Silver Star starting in July will have an impact on the diners ordered. If the experiment goes well, will they cut back the order? Could they reconfigure some of them to be more efficient to fit the new normal?


----------



## Ryan

No.


----------



## Guest

The old diners are apparently at the end of their useful life and don't handle the rails as well as newer cars.

I would definitely keep the diners on long haul trains including Silver Star and SIlver Meteor and its a reason to book Silver Meteor when you can as Silver Star tends to have more shorter haul passengers

I think the experiment is a bad idea for the long haul but it will reduce wear and tear on the existing heritage diners till the new dining cars start to come in.

I am thinking that this is the real reason for the removal of the dining car on test trains but while this happens, they get to see if it would become a viable option but I personally don't believe it will be and they will be resuming service


----------



## Slasharoo

I personally want the diners to stay as well, but the writing is on the wall, in pencil at least. With the pressure on Amtrak to curb dining costs, besides the Star, they might want to elimiinate diners on routes that have limited meal service anyway; the Capitol Limited, the Lake Shore Limited and the City of New Orleans only serve two meals per trip. If this does come to pass, I would hope there would be a more efficient way to serve passengers than is currently happening on the single and double level cafe/lounge cars. If the new cars can help in this regard, on the eastern routes at least, now might be a good time to explore those possibilities.


----------



## neroden

Amtrak has nothing to replace the dining car service yet and hasn't even experimented with any such thing. And is not currently experimenting with any such thing. Furthermore, the current "Dinerless" Silver Star scheme is designed to fail. The current cafe cars are not set up or operated for acceptable service for trains travelling over long periods, regardless of whether the individual passengers are travelling over long periods.

Therefore the dining cars will stay. Removing them blindly without thoughtful replacement, as Amtrak is doing on the Star, is simply taking a bludgeon to ridership & revenue.

Incidentally, the Lake Shore Limited is cutting it inappropriately close by not serving a third meal eastbound in any case, and it irritates a lot of people, particularly when there's no time to run into the Albany station to get food.

Personally, I hope they find a way to improve service without increasing labor costs. Point-of-sale inventory tracking is a *really obvious* one.


----------



## jis

I think the LSL's food service problems will be substantially addressed if they'd get off their duffs and simply do the Diner/Cafe proposal that has been floating around ever since the PIPs were put together. They just need to be able to keep it open minimally through to POU and preferably through Croton, on the eastbound.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I think the LSL's food service problems will be substantially addressed if they'd get off their duffs


Yeah, that seems to be true of a number of problems, doesn't it? 

I was very pleased by the PIPs; they were full of well-thought out solutions and responses to specific problems and situations. Then they were largely ignored.


----------



## Eric S

Maybe we need some member of Congress to slip a passage in an Amtrak authorization or appropriation requiring Amtrak to explain its (lack of) progress in implementing the recommendations in the PIPs. Weren't the PIPs originally created because of a Congressional mandate?


----------



## guest

Eric S said:


> Weren't the PIPs originally created because of a Congressional mandate?


Sorry...what's a PIP?


----------



## Acela150

PIP= Performance Improvement Plan


----------



## Amtrak172

Anyone know when the other cars are scheduled to enter service?


----------



## Ryan

Sometime after they're delivered.


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> Sometime after they're delivered.


Ok, great! Is there a delay with them? I mean, it's taking forever. Any ETA of the delivery?


----------



## VentureForth

RyanS said:


> Sometime after they're delivered.


But that won't happen until they are almost done being built.


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometime after they're delivered.
> 
> 
> 
> But that won't happen until they are almost done being built.
Click to expand...

Of course, before we get there, they'll have to be nearly almost done being built.

Serious answer: No, we don't know. If we did, someone would have posted it and you would have read about it.


----------



## Amtrak172

RyanS said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Serious answer: No, we don't know. If we did, someone would have posted it and you would have read about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Wow, I didn't think that anyone would've posted something. It's not like that's what this entire freakin site is about. NEWS FLASH
Click to expand...


----------



## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> Anyone know when the other cars are scheduled to enter service?


The funny thing is earlier this week talking to folks at the NARP meeting including one from Amtrak I got the distinct impression that it is possible that even Amtrak does not know for sure.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know when the other cars are scheduled to enter service?
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is earlier this week talking to folks at the NARP meeting including one from Amtrak I got the distinct impression that it is possible that even Amtrak does not know for sure.
Click to expand...

I'm not even sure they have received all the bags cars.

I was distracted the last month or so, but after 18 bags cars sent to Hialeah in a convoy, and then another10 followed, did they finally get to the 70-car revised total?

And do we think any of the bag cars will go back to CAF to fix the heating strip problem and other alleged flaws, perhaps if improved parts arrive from a supplier?


----------



## R30A

So far we have recieved 2, 18, 8, 10 for a total of 38. 32 still to go!


----------



## Dutchrailnut

didn't first two go back to CAF ? for mod's ??


----------



## jis

Dutchrailnut said:


> didn't first two go back to CAF ? for mod's ??


18+2 = 20 were delivered in the first long delivery train. It included the first two that went back to CAF for mods. After that there were two delivery trains, an 8 car and a 10 car one from CAF.


----------



## Thirdrail7

WoodyinNYC said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know when the other cars are scheduled to enter service?
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is earlier this week talking to folks at the NARP meeting including one from Amtrak I got the distinct impression that it is possible that even Amtrak does not know for sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not even sure they have received all the bags cars.
> 
> I was distracted the last month or so, but after 18 bags cars sent to Hialeah in a convoy, and then another10 followed, did they finally get to the 70-car revised total?
> 
> And do we think any of the bag cars will go back to CAF to fix the heating strip problem and other alleged flaws, perhaps if improved parts arrive from a supplier?
Click to expand...

The field mods are being handled in Hialeah. The cars are being cycled through in batches to adjust some of the things Guest Guest mentioned...among other things. Hopefully, they'll come back a bit more user friendly and everyone will get on the same page because some locations are still pushing the "do not use the shelves" angle.


----------



## R30A

General Summary of Viewliner Deliveries up to now as I recall:
1. 61000 was the first delivered. 
2. Next came 62500, 68000 and 69000. 
3. Then 61000 was returned to CAF
4. In the same trip, 62500, 68000, 69000 were returned to CAF and 61000 and 61001 were picked up. 
5-6. Then in two trips a week apart, 61002-61027 were picked up in 2 groups, 18 cars and 8 cars, both respectively ran as specials to Florida, with the first special picking up 61000-61001 in Philly. Cars were not consecutive between these two deliveries. 
7. Most recently, 61028-61037 were picked up and brought to Sunnyside. From there, they were sent in 5 car groups on two consecutive Silver Meteors to Florida.


----------



## Ryan

I believe that is correct.


----------



## Numbers_Game

R30A said:


> General Summary of Viewliner Deliveries up to now as I recall:
> 
> 1. 61000 was the first delivered.
> 
> 2. Next came 62500, 68000 and 69000.
> 
> 3. Then 61000 was returned to CAF
> 
> 4. In the same trip, 62500, 68000, 69000 were returned to CAF and 61000 and 61001 were picked up.
> 
> 5-6. Then in two trips a week apart, 61002-61027 were picked up in 2 groups, 18 cars and 8 cars, both respectively ran as specials to Florida, with the first special picking up 61000-61001 in Philly. Cars were not consecutive between these two deliveries.
> 
> 7. Most recently, 61028-61037 were picked up and brought to Sunnyside. From there, they were sent in 5 car groups on two consecutive Silver Meteors to Florida.


Do the car numbers mean anything? 61xxx, 62xxx, 68xxx, and 69xxx? Baggage, bag/dorm, diner, and sleeper?


----------



## Ryan

Yes.

61xxx: Baggage

625xx: Sleeping (620xx are the VL I Sleeping cars)

68xxx: Dining

69xxx: Bag/Dorm


----------



## Numbers_Game

Thanks!

Will the 8400 get reassigned a 68xxx number?


----------



## Acela150

Numbers_Game said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Will the 8400 get reassigned a 68xxx number?


Most likely not.

I will have to do some more looking into this. But looking at The most recent Amtrak NEC Employee TT. (Gotta have it as an NS Employee we use Amtrak trackage) The new VL's are limited to only 90 MPH. I will ask around to see if this holds true still.


----------



## Ryan

Doubtful.


----------



## jis

At least it is known that they have been cleared for 125mph by the FRA. Of course that does not necessarily mean that Amtrak has to have cleared them for the same.


----------



## R30A

I would be very surprised if we didn't do every bit of the 110 MPH the diner was capable of on my recent Silver Star run which had a Viewliner baggage car.


----------



## jis

I am told by usually reliable sources that they have observed the Palmetto doing 125mph. As a matter of fact one time when it had a PV restricted to 110mph it even mistakenly did 125mph!

These days we have an army of rail enthusiasts doing relatively reliable speed tracking using GPS on the NEC.


----------



## StriderGDM

jis said:


> I am told by usually reliable sources that they have observed the Palmetto doing 125mph. As a matter of fact one time when it had a PV restricted to 110mph it even mistakenly did 125mph!
> 
> These days we have an army of rail enthusiasts doing relatively reliable speed tracking using GPS on the NEC.


And I'm sure Amtrak Engineers appreciate being outed on a public forum where management may be able to link engineers to specific violations.


----------



## jis

Well, I am sure they are not pleased, but if they are over-speeding there is no real reason to keep it a secret either. Just IMHO of course.


----------



## Acela150

Confirmed by an Amtrak Engineer that a bulletin was put out stating the new VL's are good for 125.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Strider, thank you for the concern for employees. Very little credence is paid to internet "reliable" sources when it comes to speed pronouncements. I've also seen the great army of enthusiasts posting that the Pennsylvanian was tooling around at 140 mph through New Jersey.

Nothing beats the time that someone said a 90mph train was doing 110mph through a speed restriction. Everyone knew that it was impossible since the train was operating with an E-60 but everyone went and had a look at the high speed E-60.

My only thought is what the post has to do with Viewliners. Even if we were to assume that Jis's usually reliable source is spot on, what does it have to do with the status and production of Viewliner II since the bags aren't restricted to 110mph?

Acela150, I assume you mean only the bags are good for 125mph?.


----------



## jis

I suppose that would be for the moderators to decide, no?  Suffice it to say that AU is traditionally not known for the anally fixated adherence to the thread theme as certain other boards are.

Yeah I agree that a lot of crap is posted, and therefore I would be really surprised if Amtrak management really pays attention to what is said here about speed, and indeed about most other things anyway. That being the case I don't see why the Engineers should be worried about anything anyway.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thanks for the input Gene....I mean Jis.


----------



## StriderGDM

jis said:


> I suppose that would be for the moderators to decide, no?  Suffice it to say that AU is traditionally not known for the anally fixated adherence to the thread theme as certain other boards are.
> 
> Yeah I agree that a lot of crap is posted, and therefore I would be really surprised if Amtrak management really pays attention to what is said here about speed, and indeed about most other things anyway. That being the case I don't see why the Engineers should be worried about anything anyway.


Based on discussions I've had in private with Amtrak employees, including engineers, I'd say be prepared to be surprised. Yeah, seems petty to me, but apparently it does happen (and while I suspect if someone posted their GPS measured 160mph on an Empire Service train it would be ignored, unfortunately a report of say 112mph (which is possible with a GPS that wasn't measuring entirely accurately) could mean an engineer who was actually doing 109 mph in the proper sections still may find him or herself having a discussion.


----------



## Numbers_Game

Will the Silver Star, with one of the new Viewliner II baggage cars, and without one of the old heritage diners, now be able to haulass on its treks up and down the eastern coast?


----------



## Ryan

On the NEC, I think so.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Guest Numbers:

I doubt there will be a speed change until the speed on the Viewliner I equipment is raised. They have the same speed as the heritage diners.


----------



## Ryan

Crap, I forgot about that.


----------



## NewCars

The most recent equipment manual was updated on March 2, 2015 and shows the following speeds:

Equipment Speed
Viewliner I Cars 62000-62049, 8400 110

Viewliner II Cars (LDSL) 

Baggage (61000-61084) 125
Sleeper (62500-62534) 90
Diner (68000-68039) 90
Bag-Dorm (69000-69039) 90

I have not seen any special instructions issued since changing any of these speeds.

And yes, the numbered ranges above cover 200 cars, but don't anyone start thinking the 70 car option has been exercised. Even if the additional cars are ordered, I don't see a total of 40 dining cars and bag-dorms coming. At this point, with all the delays so far, I'm not sure the option will ever be taken.


----------



## StriderGDM

NewCars said:


> The most recent equipment manual was updated on March 2, 2015 and shows the following speeds:
> 
> Equipment Speed
> Viewliner I Cars 62000-62049, 8400 110
> 
> Viewliner II Cars (LDSL)
> 
> Baggage (61000-61084) 125
> Sleeper (62500-62534) 90
> Diner (68000-68039) 90
> Bag-Dorm (69000-69039) 90
> 
> I have not seen any special instructions issued since changing any of these speeds.
> 
> And yes, the numbered ranges above cover 200 cars, but don't anyone start thinking the 70 car option has been exercised. Even if the additional cars are ordered, I don't see a total of 40 dining cars and bag-dorms coming. At this point, with all the delays so far, I'm not sure the option will ever be taken.


This is very interesting though since it's the first breakdown I've seen that suggests what the additional 70 car option could look like.

If I'm doing my math right it looks like this is suggesting if the option IS exercised it would be an additional:

15 baggage cars

10 sleepers

15 diners

30 baggage dorms

That's quite interesting. It's suggesting they could create 3 trainsets for additional overnight service and still have plenty of extra equipment for other areas.

But, looking a bit more, I suspect that perhaps these numbers were based on the original expectations (before the number of baggage dorms was cut from 25 to 15).

No matter what, still very interesting.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> Strider, thank you for the concern for employees. Very little credence is paid to internet "reliable" sources when it comes to speed pronouncements. I've also seen the great army of enthusiasts posting that the Pennsylvanian was tooling around at 140 mph through New Jersey.
> 
> Nothing beats the time that someone said a 90mph train was doing 110mph through a speed restriction. Everyone knew that it was impossible since the train was operating with an E-60 but everyone went and had a look at the high speed E-60.
> 
> My only thought is what the post has to do with Viewliners. Even if we were to assume that Jis's usually reliable source is spot on, what does it have to do with the status and production of Viewliner II since the bags aren't restricted to 110mph?
> 
> Acela150, I assume you mean only the bags are good for 125mph?.


Yes. The bags. More so since the new sleepers diners and bag dorms aren't in service yet.

I should add that guest_new cars posts a lot of BS. The engineer who informed me that a bulletin was put out doesn't post BS. I always trust his info.


----------



## DryCreek

Maybe any of the new VLII baggage cars deadheading south could be put on the Silver Star and some enterprising individual could open a hot dog stand in them while the diners are "resting". Heck, even a Subway or some other sub/sandwich shop would do.


----------



## NewCars

Acela150 said:


> Yes. The bags. More so since the new sleepers diners and bag dorms aren't in service yet.
> 
> I should add that guest_new cars posts a lot of BS. The engineer who informed me that a bulletin was put out doesn't post BS. I always trust his info.


Gee, that really makes me feel great posting what information I can here. The Viewliner II project is way behind schedule, everything is still in flux and information changes almost day-to-day. There is still an unbelievable amount of gossip and rumor running rampant through the ranks. I feel everything I've posted has been fairly reliable and accurate at the time of posting. For example, a member of management advised just this week that "99% of the baggage cars are defective and the entire fleet is shipping back to the factory." I don't believe that information is reliable or accurate, so I didn't post it here. However, there must have been some shred of truth about problems because 92(23), 98(24) and 92(24) all originated with a coach as a baggage car.

Before my message on equipment speeds, I pulled up every general order and notice for both NEC and Southeast regions issued this year. None of the GOs or GNs changed the speeds listed in the AMT-3 Air Brake and Equipment Handling manual issued on March 2. I have no idea what bulletin your engineer friend is looking at and while I cannot find said bulletin, I'm not calling his information BS and I would appreciate if you wouldn't call mine BS.


----------



## NewCars

Wait a minute. I just read back through the last couple posts. Acela150 said the baggage cars are good for 125. My post said the baggage cars are good for 125. What's the issue here?


----------



## VentureForth

I wonder why the other VLII's are listed at 90 MPH. Is Amtrak known for going backwards, technology wise? Ok, dumb question. But I think that the VL II Sleepers, Diners and Bag/Dorms will likely be certified for 125 by the time they are delivered. I cannot imagine why not, as mechanically I would assume the bogeys and structure are the same.

If not 125, then I would hope for sure at the LEAST 110...

Why bring the NEC down to 90 with the new equipment?

I don't think I'd call NewCars' info BS. He's posting what he hears, and it's rational. I'm pretty sure [hopeful] that those numbers will be revised.


----------



## Numbers_Game

VentureForth said:


> I wonder why the other VLII's are listed at 90 MPH. Is Amtrak known for going backwards, technology wise? Ok, dumb question. But I think that the VL II Sleepers, Diners and Bag/Dorms will likely be certified for 125 by the time they are delivered. I cannot imagine why not, as mechanically I would assume the bogeys and structure are the same.
> 
> If not 125, then I would hope for sure at the LEAST 110...
> 
> Why bring the NEC down to 90 with the new equipment?
> 
> I don't think I'd call NewCars' info BS. He's posting what he hears, and it's rational. I'm pretty sure [hopeful] that those numbers will be revised.


I read that list as the baggage (only) cars have been delivered and were able to get certified for 125mph.

The other new VLII cars haven't been delivered yet, and the 90mph is just a placeholder (at a minimum value?) until the actual cars can get certified.


----------



## Andrew Ziolo

I just got off the Crescent this morning. Rode from NY to Atlanta, and the #61000 baggage car was on the back of our consist in full operation/use. I took a couple of pictures, if interested tell me how to post. I spoke to the conductor unloading bags "how do you like the new car?" His response "the doors get in the way, I wish they would just roll up."


----------



## Andrew Ziolo

Baggage Car 61000 pictures. Below is a widget created in Pinterest of baggage car 61000 on today's Crescent 19.

<a data-pin-do="embedBoard" href="https://www.pinterest.com/andrewziolo7/trains/"data-pin-scale-width="80"data-pin-scale-height="200" data-pin-board-width="400"> Follow Andrew's board Trains on Pinterest.</a><!-- Please call pinit.js only once per page --><script type="text/javascript" async src="//assets.pinterest.com/js/pinit.js"></script>


----------



## kdeschner

Hello, I have been seeing new baggage cars on the LSL and The Cardinal, and heritage baggage cars on the H.S. (Cardinal) deadheading to Indianapolis, and taken to Beech Grove.

I have a few questions, when will the new baggage cars start being put on the superliner trains, and when will the V2 Diners abd Sleepers start coming out?

Thank You!


----------



## Acela150

Sleepers and Diners are still a long ways away. I think it's one page back Jis posted that he had talked to someone that thinks Amtrak doesn't even know when they'll be getting more Baggage cars!


----------



## R30A

That Amtrak doesn't know exactly when does not necessarily mean they are far away. I suspect Amtrak will continue to be coy as to when exactly things are happening as in general, when they say something is coming it hasn't meant much. CAF is quite far along on the other three lines as well. Not sure exactly what still needs to be done to the cars, however some of the others are getting striping applied now. 
Seeing the pictures of the plant it would almost surprise me if construction of the carbodies is not done by now, and I think it has been done for a while.


----------



## jis

I understand it has to do with redoing some number of welds, so even if every shell looks done that does not mean much.


----------



## George K

jis said:


> I understand it has to do with redoing some number of welds, so even if every shell looks done that does not mean much.


That _sounds_ serious. But I know nothing of these things, so is it?


----------



## JoeRids

Saw LSL 49 racing up the Hudson about 15 min south of Pougheepsie, running about 80 min late (of course). It had the new baggage, Indianapolis diner, and 3 Viewliner sleepers; a true glimpse into the future.


----------



## kdeschner

Here is a V2 Baggage On The Cardinal. I have been seeing old Baggages going on the H.S. Toward Beech Grove.


----------



## Blackwolf

kdeschner said:


> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1430614082.681784.jpg
> 
> Here is a V2 Baggage On The Cardinal. I have been seeing old Baggages going on the H.S. Toward Beech Grove.


Looks like that, even with the new baggage cars, Amtrak personnel are still stead-fast in their inability to close the darn doors.


----------



## kdeschner

Acela150 said:


> Sleepers and Diners are still a long ways away. I think it's one page back Jis posted that he had talked to someone that thinks Amtrak doesn't even know when they'll be getting more Baggage cars!


Wow! Did Amtrak Have any say in the first car out of the factory? Because I would think they would want to start with the heritage fleet, and who knows, maybe get real diners on the cardnial!


----------



## kdeschner

Blackwolf said:


> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1430614082.681784.jpg
> 
> Here is a V2 Baggage On The Cardinal. I have been seeing old Baggages going on the H.S. Toward Beech Grove.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like that, even with the new baggage cars, Amtrak personnel are still stead-fast in their inability to close the darn doors.
Click to expand...

Haha! I agree, but this is allready arrived and is backing out of the stationBut don't worry the Amtrak could save money and not put doors on because they are never closed!


----------



## kdeschner

kdeschner said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1430614082.681784.jpg
> 
> Here is a V2 Baggage On The Cardinal. I have been seeing old Baggages going on the H.S. Toward Beech Grove.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like that, even with the new baggage cars, Amtrak personnel are still stead-fast in their inability to close the darn doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Haha! I agree, but this is allready arrived and is backing out of the stationBut don't worry the Amtrak could save money and not put doors on because they are never closed!
Click to expand...

So in other words it is empty of people and baggage


----------



## Guest

Blackwolf said:


> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1430614082.681784.jpg
> 
> Here is a V2 Baggage On The Cardinal. I have been seeing old Baggages going on the H.S. Toward Beech Grove.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like that, even with the new baggage cars, Amtrak personnel are still stead-fast in their inability to close the darn doors.
Click to expand...

Too bad the doors on the new cars were designed by dummies.


----------



## kdeschner

Guest said:


> Blackwolf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1430614082.681784.jpg
> 
> Here is a V2 Baggage On The Cardinal. I have been seeing old Baggages going on the H.S. Toward Beech Grove.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like that, even with the new baggage cars, Amtrak personnel are still stead-fast in their inability to close the darn doors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Too bad the doors on the new cars were designed by dummies.
Click to expand...

No Kidding!


----------



## Acela150

kdeschner said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sleepers and Diners are still a long ways away. I think it's one page back Jis posted that he had talked to someone that thinks Amtrak doesn't even know when they'll be getting more Baggage cars!
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! Did Amtrak Have any say in the first car out of the factory? Because I would think they would want to start with the heritage fleet, and who knows, maybe get real diners on the cardnial!
Click to expand...

I think they wanted Baggage Cars first. I also believe that was in the contract. Not sure though.


----------



## Ryan

Being a part of the heritage fleet, yes, that's where they started.


----------



## StriderGDM

kdeschner said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sleepers and Diners are still a long ways away. I think it's one page back Jis posted that he had talked to someone that thinks Amtrak doesn't even know when they'll be getting more Baggage cars!
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! Did Amtrak Have any say in the first car out of the factory? Because I would think they would want to start with the heritage fleet, and who knows, maybe get real diners on the cardnial!
Click to expand...

Yes they did say, and they wanted baggage cars and got them. And baggage cars are of course part of the heritage fleet.


----------



## Palmetto

80 minutes late already before Poughkeepsie? Wonder what happened?


----------



## gaspeamtrak

We were held at Penn station for over and hour for a police investigation bout three miles out from Penn station by the Hudson River. Saw a body in a body bag just about to be picked up by the police forensic van. Couldn't tell if it had been involved with a train or not?? So don't blame Amtrak for this delay till you know the facts!!! :angry: Does anybody have any idea what happened?

By the way we thought the "VL 8400 "Indianapolis" was great! The crew was great/Food (steak) was first rate/service was excellent! Can't wait for the new diners!

Will try and have story of our trip soon!


----------



## gaspeamtrak

Sorry about that! Thought I was signed in! :giggle:


----------



## WoodyinNYC

StriderGDM said:


> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sleepers and Diners are still a long ways away. I think it's one page back Jis posted that he had talked to someone that thinks Amtrak doesn't even know when they'll be getting more Baggage cars!
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! Did Amtrak Have any say in the first car out of the factory? Because I would think they would want to start with the heritage fleet, and who knows, maybe get real diners on the cardinal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes they did say, and they wanted baggage cars and got them. And baggage cars are of course part of the heritage fleet.
Click to expand...

Baggage cars were to come first from the first.

The heritage bag cars include the oldest cars in the fleet. So getting them out of the fleet first, and reducing maintenance costs and hassles in general makes sense.

The new baggage cars are the simplest model. Compare to the plumbing on the sleepers, and the kitchens and plumbing on the diners. Starting out with the simplest model is a no-brainer. The wisdom of this approach has been shown by the early appearance of problems (which we hope can be fully remedied) with the bag cars.

Not sure if the 10 bag dorms come next, or the diners. Remember the factory has two lines, so both bag-dorms and diners could be assembled simultaneously. Anyway, the diners will come soon enuff, and that's urgent because of their high maintenance costs and other inefficiencies.

So the first and bulk of the order is to get rid of the high costs of the unreliable heritage equipment. The last part, the 25 new sleepers (barring an option order), will add capacity and raise revenue. Sweet as that will be, it is not the top priority.


----------



## kdeschner

WoodyinNYC said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sleepers and Diners are still a long ways away. I think it's one page back Jis posted that he had talked to someone that thinks Amtrak doesn't even know when they'll be getting more Baggage cars!
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! Did Amtrak Have any say in the first car out of the factory? Because I would think they would want to start with the heritage fleet, and who knows, maybe get real diners on the cardinal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes they did say, and they wanted baggage cars and got them. And baggage cars are of course part of the heritage fleet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Baggage cars were to come first from the first.
> The heritage bag cars include the oldest cars in the fleet. So getting them out of the fleet first, and reducing maintenance costs and hassles in general makes sense.
> 
> The new baggage cars are the simplest model. Compare to the plumbing on the sleepers, and the kitchens and plumbing on the diners. Starting out with the simplest model is a no-brainer. The wisdom of this approach has been shown by the early appearance of problems (which we hope can be fully remedied) with the bag cars.
> 
> Not sure if the 10 bag dorms come next, or the diners. Remember the factory has two lines, so both bag-dorms and diners could be assembled simultaneously. Anyway, the diners will come soon enuff, and that's urgent because of their high maintenance costs and other inefficiencies.
> 
> So the first and bulk of the order is to get rid of the high costs of the unreliable heritage equipment. The last part, the 25 new sleepers (barring an option order), will add capacity and raise revenue. Sweet as that will be, it is not the top priority.
Click to expand...

Ok, Thank You.They are just using Amfleet cafes as diners on 50-51, correct?


----------



## jis

kdeschner said:


> Ok, Thank You.
> 
> They are just using Amfleet cafes as diners on 50-51, correct?


Thos cars are Amfleet II Diner-Lites, which are different from the Amfleet I Cafe Cars.


----------



## kdeschner

jis said:


> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, Thank You.
> 
> They are just using Amfleet cafes as diners on 50-51, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> Thos cars are Amfleet II Diner-Lites, which are different from the Amfleet I Cafe Cars.
Click to expand...

Ok, Thank YouWhat routes do you think Bag Dorms Be Used on

(Are there some more routes than others that have more reason than others for a bag dorm?)


----------



## pebbleworm

Whenever I've had a chance to peek into an open baggage car on the Coast Starlight, California Zephyr or the Southwest Chief they are pretty much empty. My guess is that is due to the lack of stations with baggage service, but that is just hearsay and ignorant snooping on my part. I have no hard numbers. A baggage/dorm could possibly handle things on these routes


----------



## William W.

A bag-dorm could make sense on the Cardinal, one of the sections of the LSL, and potentially on 66/67, if sleeper service returns.


----------



## kdeschner

I should know this as I ride 48-49 a LOT but where does the crew sleep now? I know sleeper attendants have a roomette but do the others just sit in the snack car?


----------



## Ryan

All OBS (not operating) personnel get a roomette.


----------



## VentureForth

They don't even have to share a roomette. One room per OBS.


----------



## Bob Dylan

On all of the LD Viewliner equipped trains the OBS ( SCA, LSA,Diner Cew,Coach arrendants) all have roomettes in the Sleeping Cars(s) which blocks revenue rooms for passengers.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

kdeschner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, Thank You.
> 
> They are just using Amfleet cafes as diners on 50-51, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> Thos cars are Amfleet II Diner-Lites, which are different from the Amfleet I Cafe Cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, Thank YouWhat routes do you think Bag Dorms Be Used on
> 
> (Are there some more routes than others that have more reason than others for a bag dorm?)
Click to expand...

Every LD train will have either a bag car or a bag dorm, of course. It's been speculated here that some medium distance trains like the _Adirondack _could gain a bag car or bag dorm.

I've seen it posted (iirc, wish I could find it now  ) that the ideal ratio of sleepers to diners maxes out to 3 ½ sleepers on each single-level train, and 4 or 4 ½ on each bi-level train (maybe I got that backwards?  . More sleepers than that ratio and the diners can't handle all the customers; fewer sleepers per diner leaves unused dining capacity.

Of course, where there's no bag dorm, half a sleeper is out of revenue service,

Amtrak will need to figure out where paying customers can usually fill 2 ½ sleepers, or 3, or 3 ½, and then add the bag dorm "half-sleeper" as needed.

Again hoping they can find a way to buy a handful more cars out of the option order, to allow maximum flexibility in using the diners, sleepers, and bag dorms.


----------



## jis

There is zero chance of any day train getting a bag-dorm, no matter how much people want to speculate away.


----------



## DryCreek

jis said:


> There is zero chance of any day train getting a bag-dorm, no matter how much people want to speculate away.


How about a heritage baggage car with two or three levels of hammocks at one end? Amtrak Steerage Class for the more "economy minded traveler"? They could even be pressed into service to help unload baggage at the larger station stops...


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> There is zero chance of any day train getting a bag-dorm, no matter how much people want to speculate away.


IF a day train were to get a bag dorm. I could see 42/43 getting it. With that BagDorm being tagged onto train 29/30


----------



## Anderson

WoodyinNYC said:


> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, Thank You.
> 
> They are just using Amfleet cafes as diners on 50-51, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> Thos cars are Amfleet II Diner-Lites, which are different from the Amfleet I Cafe Cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok, Thank YouWhat routes do you think Bag Dorms Be Used on
> 
> (Are there some more routes than others that have more reason than others for a bag dorm?)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Every LD train will have either a bag car or a bag dorm, of course. It's been speculated here that some medium distance trains like the _Adirondack _could gain a bag car or bag dorm.
> 
> I've seen it posted (iirc, wish I could find it now  ) that the ideal ratio of sleepers to diners maxes out to 3 ½ sleepers on each single-level train, and 4 or 4 ½ on each bi-level train (maybe I got that backwards?  . More sleepers than that ratio and the diners can't handle all the customers; fewer sleepers per diner leaves unused dining capacity.
> 
> Of course, where there's no bag dorm, half a sleeper is out of revenue service,
> 
> Amtrak will need to figure out where paying customers can usually fill 2 ½ sleepers, or 3, or 3 ½, and then add the bag dorm "half-sleeper" as needed.
> 
> Again hoping they can find a way to buy a handful more cars out of the option order, to allow maximum flexibility in using the diners, sleepers, and bag dorms.
Click to expand...

Trying to peg an ideal ratio is tricky, but assuming three seatings, with a 48-seat single-level diner you have 144 seats/meal and with a 72-seat bilevel diner you have 216 seats/meal. The theoretical capacity of a Viewliner I sleeper is 30 and the effective capacity probably somewhere in the mid-20s (I'd say around 24); for a standard Superliner the theoretical capacity is 44 and the effective capacity probably in the mid-30s (I'm guessing about 36).

In theory this computes to about 6 sleepers/diner, but especially with the bilevels you tend to lose a few tables for supply storage more often than you do on a single-level diner. You also need to account for a (substantial) amount of coach traffic in the diner...honestly, assume 40% of traffic will be from coach much of the time (this is what you tend to see on the LSL and the SWC per Amtrak's PIPs). That probably caps you off at about 4-5 sleepers for a single-level diner if you more or less lock out coach, and somewhere in the 3-4 range for a Superliner diner. Note that this lines up roughly with Amtrak's reported capacity issues on the Builder's diner with three sleepers plus a transdorm.

Edit: As to the bag-dorm question, while it is highly unlikely one will get used for a day train on a regular basis you'll probably get one allocated oddly every-so-often when the Bad Order Fairy sprinkles dust in the train yard and you get the "wrong" equipment on a train as a result.


----------



## tommylicious

I saw a Viewliner II baggage car in the Chicago yard last weekend. Sharp looking piece of equipment. When are we getting the Viewliner II sleepers??


----------



## Ryan

After we get the rest of the bags. And the Diners. And maybe the bag/dorms.


----------



## tommylicious

That sounds like 2025 winter at the earliest.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

tommylicious said:


> That sounds like 2025 winter at the earliest.


If you want a better estimate, you could do us the favor of reading earlier posts just a few pages back where this question is fully explored.


----------



## MrFSS

WoodyinNYC said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like 2025 winter at the earliest.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a better estimate, you could do us the favor of reading earlier posts just a few pages back where this question is fully explored.
Click to expand...

 I think he was being facetious.


----------



## XHRTSP

VentureForth said:


> They don't even have to share a roomette. One room per OBS.


Did Amtrak give them that or did the unions? I still can't believe that's the case, and yet they can't give conducters and engine crews rooms so they won't time out and strand the train in the middle of nowhere waiting for backfill.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Union negotiated personal rooms for OBS in the agreement with Amtrak!

Deadheading for T& E Crew Members isn't alllowed to keep them from exceeding the Hours worked/rest rules!

They must be relieved when they Max out on the Law!


----------



## Ryan

XHRTSP said:


> I still can't believe that's the case, and yet they can't give conducters and engine crews rooms so they won't time out and strand the train in the middle of nowhere waiting for backfill.


Talk to the FRA. Rest doesn't count if you're on a train.


----------



## VentureForth

But it does if you're in the bunk of a Semi tractor-trailer rig. Or in the luggage berth of a bus (ok, maybe not in the US, but Mexico for sure).


----------



## Ryan

I didn't say that it made sense.


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> But it does if you're in the bunk of a Semi tractor-trailer rig. Or in the luggage berth of a bus (ok, maybe not in the US, but Mexico for sure).


In India you don't even need to be in such such luxurious quarters  As a matter of fact you can just keep on driving until you fall asleep and fall off the road into a deep ravine too. Whose checking?


----------



## Counting_Rooms

VentureForth said:


> They don't even have to share a roomette. One room per OBS.





jimhudson said:


> On all of the LD Viewliner equipped trains the OBS ( SCA, LSA,Diner Cew,Coach arrendants) all have roomettes in the Sleeping Cars(s) which blocks revenue rooms for passengers.


How many roomettes are there in the new Viewliner II dorm-baggage cars? I mean, are there enough for all the OBS on a LD train? If not enough, then would some OBS still be assigned a roomette in a Sleeper? If too many, would Amtrak sell the extra to passengers, like what is done with the extra roomettes on the Superliner Transdorms?

Do the roomettes on the Viewliner II dorm-baggage cars, have only one bed (since only one OBS person can ever be assigned)? Or does it have two, to make them identical to the roomettes in the Sleepers?


----------



## R30A

All of these are subject to me being wrong in my recollection, But respectively:
9, Depends on the train, but almost universally yes. Yes. Probably. 

I believe the plan is for 2, just like every other roomette.


----------



## Ryan

Yep, that eliminates the need for a "special" one-bed roomette module.

There really isn't anything special about the bag-dorms, they'll be not unlike the trans-dorms out west - provide some number of rooms to reduce the number of rooms needed by staff in the regular sleeping cars. I wouldn't be surprised to see that rooms in the transbag-dorm are sold to the public if there are extras on a given train.


----------



## VentureForth

Now then, I will back peddle a bit on crew rest requirements for the conductor and engineer. Even if the berths were suitable for rest, and even if they had three crews, 8 on, 16 off, I still think that they need to be taken off the train on really long distance routes. For example, I don't think it's practical for someone to know every aspect (literally) between Chicago and LA and memorize every single signal - especially when using multiple roads (they do it now, but on much shorter segments). Throw in the slow orders and you're head is swimming.

So, the crew takes up probably 6 to 8 rooms plus the SCAs who take up their own 1 per car and that's 10-12 rooms per train you can't sell.

And they want to cut the diner. :angry2:


----------



## Alex M.

Regarding future purchases of new equipment, I wonder if Amtrak would consider reviving the old combine for single level coach only trains that may not require a full baggage car? It seems that if North Carolina can do this for their Piedmonts, why not Amtrak?


----------



## jis

Alex M. said:


> Regarding future purchases of new equipment, I wonder if Amtrak would consider reviving the old combine for single level coach only trains that may not require a full baggage car? It seems that if North Carolina can do this for their Piedmonts, why not Amtrak?


I suppose anything could happen. But my guess is that it is very unlikely. Amtrak has been trying hard to reduce the number of different types of cars it has in its fleet. The gains from having this additional car type is minimal to non-existent.


----------



## neroden

Anderson said:


> Trying to peg an ideal ratio is tricky, but assuming three seatings, with a 48-seat single-level diner you have 144 seats/meal and with a 72-seat bilevel diner you have 216 seats/meal.


Four seatings is the best way to improve this, but I doubt it's viable. You might be able to get "three and a half", but three is a good assumption.


> The theoretical capacity of a Viewliner I sleeper is 30 and the effective capacity probably somewhere in the mid-20s (I'd say around 24); for a standard Superliner the theoretical capacity is 44 and the effective capacity probably in the mid-30s (I'm guessing about 36).


Fair numbers to work with.



> In theory this computes to about 6 sleepers/diner, but especially with the bilevels you tend to lose a few tables for supply storage more often than you do on a single-level diner. You also need to account for a (substantial) amount of coach traffic in the diner...honestly, assume 40% of traffic will be from coach much of the time (this is what you tend to see on the LSL and the SWC per Amtrak's PIPs).


Assuming you leave appropriate room (40%) for coach passengers, this puts a cap of 3.6 sleeper cars per dining car on either a single-level or bilevel train... unless you add a table car, of course. I don't know what the limitation on the kitchen is, though; I'm assuming seating is the limit, rather than kitchen speed or ability of waiters to serve table. I may be wrong.
But if I'm right, table cars are a sensible and economical thing to have on longer trains. Amtrak should order some.  Consider, for example, an Amfleet II; and suppose the tables on one end were reserved for dining car service during mealtimes. Even if you have one of them wasted by the conductor, that's something like 5 tables, or 20 people, bringing service up to 204 people per meal, and handling 5 sleeping cars even if 40% of the patronage is still coach.

Now let me think about waiters. There are currently 12 tables in a Viewliner/Heritage diner. It appears from some googling that one waiter should be able to handle between 4 and 7 tables (depending on the restaurant). That's two or three waiters, more likely three. Adding the extra tables would make it between three and five waiters, most likely four. (Fewer during low-ridership periods.) This is probably still cost-effective as long as the kitchen staff doesn't need to be expanded.... although looking at the numbers again, it really looks to me as if you could handle occasional "peak demand" with three waiters as long as it wasn't happening daily.


----------



## neroden

Regarding OBS accomodations, I can't imagine how they got single berthing in their contract. Going back to double berthing would probably be the single biggest thing Amtrak could do to cut costs on the overnight trains. Next time the contract is renegotiated, Amtrak should demand this giveback, which only affects the small minority of crew members who go overnight, and would vastly improve the real finances of the dining cars. To accomodate our gender norms, this could be done:

1 crew -- 1 roomette

2 crew -- 2 roomettes

3 crew -- 2 roomettes (e.g. LSL Boston) -- releases 1 revenue roomette

4 crew -- 3 roomettes (e.g. Cardinal, current Star) -- releases 1 revenue roomette

5 crew -- 3 roomettes

6 crew -- 4 roomettes

7 crew -- 4 roomettes (e.g. LSL New York) -- releases 3 revenue roomettes

8 crew -- 5 roomettes (e.g. Crescent/Meteor/former Star) -- releases 3 revenue roomettes

9 crew -- 5 roomettes

10 crew -- 6 roomettes (e.g. LSL) -- releases 4 revenue roomettes

11 crew -- 6 roomettes

12 crew -- 7 roomettes

...and so on.

For each gender with an odd number of crew members, the most senior crew member would get the single. Seniority could also determine the ability to pick the lower bunk, with the youngest and most spry crew members taking the upper bunks.

The union should recognize that this is in their long-term best interest. At the moment it's just too expensive to employ additional dining car or coach staff. This change would cut Amtrak's costs for employing additional staff, while maintaining the salary levels and workloads of the staff... frankly, the disused upper bunks of the staff roomettes are the closest case to literally "featherbedding" I've ever seen! Pullman staff often slept 6 to a room in open bunks, by contrast!


----------



## Guest

Ryan said:


> Order a car's worth of extra modules, then when you bring a car into the shop, slide out the old and broken and slide in the new and refurbed. Fix up the old modules without having to have a car out of service while you do it.


Did that actually ever work, on the Viewliner I sleepers? Did they ever just slide out the old, worn out, modules, and slide new fresh modules?


----------



## Ryan

That may work once the toilets are out of the roomettes.


----------



## rrdude

Remember tho, that any Amtrak employee who is issued a "bank" or working funds (LSA or Stewards only) needs to have their own compartment, for safekeeping of company $$$. Well, that's how it was when I worked, over 30 years ago, and is one of the main reasons I went to LSA school, even thou I loved waiting tables. (read: "Tips")

But while I was a waiter, we slept in "Dorm Cars" on the western trains, some were bunked three high. All I can say was, "hold on" going track speed (90 mph) on the Santa Fe out in western desert!

I agree tho, no reason *why* two of the same sex, cannot be made to share a two bed roomette. Sure, people snore, fart, and sometimes are generally gross to be around, (just ask any of my friends) but that's what we did when we got to layovers, we shared hotel rooms. I remember sleeping in the bathtub one night, 'cause my overweight co-workers snored louder than a Nathan K5HL Horn.


----------



## TheTuck

Crew members will never share rooms and they should never have to. The last thing anyone wants after a long tiring shift is to share their personal time and space. Even if your co-workers are your best friends, everybody deserves their private space. Taking that away would be detrimental to Amtrak and flat out wrong.


----------



## Guest

neroden said:


> Regarding OBS accomodations, I can't imagine how they got single berthing in their contract. Going back to double berthing would probably be the single biggest thing Amtrak could do to cut costs on the overnight trains. Next time the contract is renegotiated, Amtrak should demand this giveback, which only affects the small minority of crew members who go overnight, and would vastly improve the real finances of the dining cars. To accomodate our gender norms, this could be done:
> 
> 1 crew -- 1 roomette
> 
> 2 crew -- 2 roomettes
> 
> 3 crew -- 2 roomettes (e.g. LSL Boston) -- releases 1 revenue roomette
> 
> 4 crew -- 3 roomettes (e.g. Cardinal, current Star) -- releases 1 revenue roomette
> 
> 5 crew -- 3 roomettes
> 
> 6 crew -- 4 roomettes
> 
> 7 crew -- 4 roomettes (e.g. LSL New York) -- releases 3 revenue roomettes
> 
> 8 crew -- 5 roomettes (e.g. Crescent/Meteor/former Star) -- releases 3 revenue roomettes
> 
> 9 crew -- 5 roomettes
> 
> 10 crew -- 6 roomettes (e.g. LSL) -- releases 4 revenue roomettes
> 
> 11 crew -- 6 roomettes
> 
> 12 crew -- 7 roomettes
> 
> ...and so on.
> 
> For each gender with an odd number of crew members, the most senior crew member would get the single. Seniority could also determine the ability to pick the lower bunk, with the youngest and most spry crew members taking the upper bunks.
> 
> The union should recognize that this is in their long-term best interest. At the moment it's just too expensive to employ additional dining car or coach staff. This change would cut Amtrak's costs for employing additional staff, while maintaining the salary levels and workloads of the staff... frankly, the disused upper bunks of the staff roomettes are the closest case to literally "featherbedding" I've ever seen! Pullman staff often slept 6 to a room in open bunks, by contrast!


No, it is not in the unions best interest to agree to that.

These folks are on the road for days and you want to dehumanize their working conditions.


----------



## rrdude

Look, "Why was it not 'dehumanizing' 30 years ago, for me to share a hotel room with the assistant cook (usually, also low on seniority board) or to sleep in open-berth crew car" but now you label it as "dehumanizing" or others stress the "need for privacy after a long (18hr) day" .

Amtrak pays their OBS staff pretty well, I think that's just one of the things they should have to put up with, to save the company some money. Americans seem obsessed with privacy in their sleep space.





worked fine for decades, no reason to abandon it just because we are more sensitive now-a-days.........


----------



## neroden

Guest said:


> These folks are on the road for days and you want to dehumanize their working conditions.


If they're demanding better sleeping conditions than I, a high-paying passenger, am getting....
...then they should all be fired as prima donnas. I believe they are not so prima-donna-ish.

If prima-donna prissy staff members think that bunking two to a room is "dehumanizing", they're in the wrong line of work. They are, in fact, selling rooms to people who bunk two to a room...

As I said, for most of American railroad history, the onboard staff were bunking six to a room in open bunks. If you think sharing a roomette is "dehumanizing", there's something wrong with you.

If the union demands featherbedding for their employees, they'll pretty soon find that there aren't any employees left. Elimination of the dining cars will knock out a lot of them. Next step will be replacement of coach attendants with Assistant Conductors; the higher pay will be compensated for by the freed-up sleeping space.

I'm not looking forward to this trend.


----------



## Guest

neroden said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> These folks are on the road for days and you want to dehumanize their working conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> If they're demanding better sleeping conditions than I, a high-paying passenger, am getting....
> ...then they should all be fired as prima donnas. I believe they are not so prima-donna-ish.
> 
> If prima-donna prissy staff members think that bunking two to a room is "dehumanizing", they're in the wrong line of work. They are, in fact, selling rooms to people who bunk two to a room...
> 
> As I said, for most of American railroad history, the onboard staff were bunking six to a room in open bunks. If you think sharing a roomette is "dehumanizing", there's something wrong with you.
> 
> If the union demands featherbedding for their employees, they'll pretty soon find that there aren't any employees left. Elimination of the dining cars will knock out a lot of them. Next step will be replacement of coach attendants with Assistant Conductors; the higher pay will be compensated for by the freed-up sleeping space.
Click to expand...

It is not featherbedding. It is treating employees with respect. Something you obviously know nothing about.

As far as railroad history. Railroad history is a history of rail workers fighting for better working conditions and safer working conditions. Study that history. That is the history we need to learn from and go back to, the fighting history. Not making concessions. Not going back in time to those working conditions.


----------



## Ryan

Guest said:


> It is treating employees with respect. Something you obviously know nothing about.


Can we maybe disagree without the personal attacks? I happen to agree with you, but you're not helping your case.

There's a big difference between choosing to book a ticket and sharing a room with someone you know and being forced to share a 4x8 room with a stranger.

There's a smaller, but still significant difference between forcing employees to double up in a hotel room and a roomette on the train. The hotel room is significantly larger (you actually have a bathtub to retreat to) and you're not forced to remain there.


----------



## StriderGDM

Guest said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> These folks are on the road for days and you want to dehumanize their working conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> If they're demanding better sleeping conditions than I, a high-paying passenger, am getting....
> ...then they should all be fired as prima donnas. I believe they are not so prima-donna-ish.
> 
> If prima-donna prissy staff members think that bunking two to a room is "dehumanizing", they're in the wrong line of work. They are, in fact, selling rooms to people who bunk two to a room...
> 
> As I said, for most of American railroad history, the onboard staff were bunking six to a room in open bunks. If you think sharing a roomette is "dehumanizing", there's something wrong with you.
> 
> If the union demands featherbedding for their employees, they'll pretty soon find that there aren't any employees left. Elimination of the dining cars will knock out a lot of them. Next step will be replacement of coach attendants with Assistant Conductors; the higher pay will be compensated for by the freed-up sleeping space.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is not featherbedding. It is treating employees with respect. Something you obviously know nothing about.
> 
> As far as railroad history. Railroad history is a history of rail workers fighting for better working conditions and safer working conditions. Study that history. That is the history we need to learn from and go back to, the fighting history. Not making concessions. Not going back in time to those working conditions.
Click to expand...

Then I think neroden is right, the problem may ultimately solve itself when the jobs go away completely.

So is 2 to a room better than none to a room?


----------



## Guest

I thought the same when I was an entering freshmen in collage. What, having to share a dorm room? But I learned to tolerate it.

Except for the LSA and the Conductor, who due to their senior positions are entitled to a private room (the same as managers getting a private office at work), everyone else should be two to a roomette. True, there is the gender and orientation mixes to consider. And personality differences. However, if the Navy can figure out such stuff for their submarines, Amtrak can do the same.

Though, I feel I need to remind that on the Superliner transdorms, there is that employee lounge downstairs. I don't think there is any such accommodation in the new Viewliner II dorm/baggage cars. OSB's will need to use the roomettes for more than simply sleeping. They will need to use such for simple off-hours relaxation, and entertainment (TV? games? reading?).


----------



## neroden

Guest said:


> It is not featherbedding.


It's almost *literally* featherbedding. Offering extra-cushy sleeping quarters! I've never seen a better example.

For reference, a roomette on some of these routes can raise upwards of $27 / hour in revenue. That's a mighty expensive perk. Would the employees care to have $13.50 an hour additional in wages instead of the solo rooms? (Rooms which they aren't even in during most of the day, because they're working?) I suspect those who have a clue might prefer it.

In Europe, of course, passengers routinely share six-bunk-to-a-room compartments with strangers. But even in the US... I have zero respect for any prima donna workers who demand better sleeping conditions than the *paying passengers*. I am quite sure most of them are not such prima donnas.

It would be interesting to look back at the history. I suspect this perk was given away when Amtrak had much lower ridership, much lower sleeper ticket prices, and an excess of sleeping cars. At the time it might have seemed like a cheap perk. Those times are long gone. With high ridership, high sleeper ticket prices, and a shortage of sleeping cars, it's now an extremely expensive perk. Give it back and get wage increases instead. (Or watch your craft forced out of existence because it's unsustainable -- which would suck.)


----------



## keelhauled

I'm confused as to how the employees are demanding better sleeping accommodations. Surely Amtrak is not forcing paying passengers to go two to a room. If so, that would indeed be news to me. Presumably two people staying in a one room are doing so because they are traveling together and wish to do so. So unless the crew rooms are still getting little chocolates set out, they would seem to be identical accommodations to those that a single passenger in a roomette would get. To say nothing of the fact that there's nothing barring a single passenger from paying for an entire bedroom if they feel like they have some money to burn, which by any measure would seem to be a superior accommodation.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not featherbedding.
> 
> 
> 
> It's almost *literally* featherbedding. Offering extra-cushy sleeping quarters! I've never seen a better example.
> 
> For reference, a roomette on some of these routes can raise upwards of $27 / hour in revenue. That's a mighty expensive perk. Would the employees care to have $13.50 an hour additional in wages instead of the solo rooms? (Rooms which they aren't even in during most of the day, because they're working?) I suspect those who have a clue might prefer it.
> 
> In Europe, of course, passengers routinely share six-bunk-to-a-room compartments with strangers. But even in the US... I have zero respect for any prima donna workers who demand better sleeping conditions than the *paying passengers*. I am quite sure most of them are not such prima donnas.
> 
> It would be interesting to look back at the history. I suspect this perk was given away when Amtrak had much lower ridership, much lower sleeper ticket prices, and an excess of sleeping cars. At the time it might have seemed like a cheap perk. Those times are long gone
Click to expand...


For the record Neroden, my recollection is that Amtrak voluntarily separated the crews. It wasn't a union demand. Indeed, they shared rooms when I came around and cafe attendants on layovers didn't even get rooms. They weren't even allowed in the layover crew rooms. The took their breaks in the cafe car, guarding their stock.

All of that came to an end during a string of defeats in various lawsuits in the 90's/early 2000s and in my opinion, they did a complete 180 on various issues.

There used to be crew suites and during emergencies, employees doubled up in hotel rooms. Not these days. Everyone is separated. Before you double up, there must be mutual consent. If not, a room does not have to be provided but you can no longer order someone to double. Another result of that battle was the modesty lock on dual cab locomotives to satisfy the female engineers.

Over time, opinions evolve. Just because something was done years ago doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea today. Just because something works in another country does not necessarily mean it is good idea here. Even if it IS a good idea, that doesn't mean it will hold up in court!


----------



## Guest

StriderGDM said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> These folks are on the road for days and you want to dehumanize their working conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> If they're demanding better sleeping conditions than I, a high-paying passenger, am getting....
> ...then they should all be fired as prima donnas. I believe they are not so prima-donna-ish.
> 
> If prima-donna prissy staff members think that bunking two to a room is "dehumanizing", they're in the wrong line of work. They are, in fact, selling rooms to people who bunk two to a room...
> 
> As I said, for most of American railroad history, the onboard staff were bunking six to a room in open bunks. If you think sharing a roomette is "dehumanizing", there's something wrong with you.
> 
> If the union demands featherbedding for their employees, they'll pretty soon find that there aren't any employees left. Elimination of the dining cars will knock out a lot of them. Next step will be replacement of coach attendants with Assistant Conductors; the higher pay will be compensated for by the freed-up sleeping space.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is not featherbedding. It is treating employees with respect. Something you obviously know nothing about.
> 
> As far as railroad history. Railroad history is a history of rail workers fighting for better working conditions and safer working conditions. Study that history. That is the history we need to learn from and go back to, the fighting history. Not making concessions. Not going back in time to those working conditions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then I think neroden is right, the problem may ultimately solve itself when the jobs go away completely.
> 
> So is 2 to a room better than none to a room?
Click to expand...

Two to a room won't save the jobs.


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> Guest said:
> 
> 
> 
> These folks are on the road for days and you want to dehumanize their working conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> If they're demanding better sleeping conditions than I, a high-paying passenger, am getting....
> ...then they should all be fired as prima donnas. I believe they are not so prima-donna-ish.
> 
> If prima-donna prissy staff members think that bunking two to a room is "dehumanizing", they're in the wrong line of work. They are, in fact, selling rooms to people who bunk two to a room...
> 
> As I said, for most of American railroad history, the onboard staff were bunking six to a room in open bunks. If you think sharing a roomette is "dehumanizing", there's something wrong with you.
> 
> If the union demands featherbedding for their employees, they'll pretty soon find that there aren't any employees left. Elimination of the dining cars will knock out a lot of them. Next step will be replacement of coach attendants with Assistant Conductors; the higher pay will be compensated for by the freed-up sleeping space.
> 
> I'm not looking forward to this trend.
Click to expand...

Do you actually work for a living? I would certainly hate working for you.


----------



## Thirdrail7

keelhauled said:


> I'm confused as to how the employees are demanding better sleeping accommodations. Surely Amtrak is not forcing paying passengers to go two to a room. If so, that would indeed be news to me. Presumably two people staying in a one room are doing so because they are traveling together and wish to do so. So unless the crew rooms are still getting little chocolates set out, they would seem to be identical accommodations to those that a single passenger in a roomette would get. To say nothing of the fact that there's nothing barring a single passenger from paying for an entire bedroom if they feel like they have some money to burn, which by any measure would seem to be a superior accommodation.


I don't believe Neroden's point is whether or not the procedure results in "better" accommodations. I believe his point is similar to my point and that is the "grand scheme" of things.

While I'm all for private space and I can appreciate the need to wind down and clear your head on a trip, the bottom line is it eats into potential revenue.

Lots of it.

It would help Amtrak bottom lines if people doubled up like they used to and like passengers riding together do.

I see both sides. I remember the old grimy bunk rooms of yesteryear where people slept in open bunks wiht 15 or 16 of your coworkers if they were extremely lucky. If you were lucky, you slept on a recliner for hours surrounded by your coworkers. If you were unlucky, you slept on a chair, a table. a bench, newspaper or wherever you could find a few feet to yourself.

So the idea of crashing in sleeper (which I've also done during emergencies) with another person isn't repulsive in my mind. I've placed my head in far worse places.

However, I never worked almost 3 days straight in the process.

I'm pretty sure we're hijacking this thread and driving it off topic while having a debate over work rules that none of us are actually involved in. That being said, I would actually defer to actually crew members since it is their job.

In case anyone wants to talk about the actual cars, another batch of bags have been shipped south to correct the numerous issues that have cropped up. I look forward to seeing the first batch return. The mods should be interesting if the latest rumor is true.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Making OBS return to the bad old Pullman days of having to sleep in the Diners, Bag Cars and even the Barbershop/Bathroom isn't going to happen.

Returning to crew cars on Single Level Cars with the New Viewliner Bag/Dorms

is an excellent idea, it opens up more rooms for revenue passengers!

As for insisting on OBS sharing Roomettes, I doubt if anyone would want to check into a hotel where on a trip and be told that they had to share a room with a co- worker or stranger like in a hostel!


----------



## Guest

Thirdrail7 said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused as to how the employees are demanding better sleeping accommodations. Surely Amtrak is not forcing paying passengers to go two to a room. If so, that would indeed be news to me. Presumably two people staying in a one room are doing so because they are traveling together and wish to do so. So unless the crew rooms are still getting little chocolates set out, they would seem to be identical accommodations to those that a single passenger in a roomette would get. To say nothing of the fact that there's nothing barring a single passenger from paying for an entire bedroom if they feel like they have some money to burn, which by any measure would seem to be a superior accommodation.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe Neroden's point is whether or not the procedure results in "better" accommodations. I believe his point is similar to my point and that is the "grand scheme" of things.
> 
> While I'm all for private space and I can appreciate the need to wind down and clear your head on a trip, the bottom line is it eats into potential revenue.
> 
> Lots of it.
> 
> It would help Amtrak bottom lines if people doubled up like they used to and like passengers riding together do.
> 
> I see both sides. I remember the old grimy bunk rooms of yesteryear where people slept in open bunks wiht 15 or 16 of your coworkers if they were extremely lucky. If you were lucky, you slept on a recliner for hours surrounded by your coworkers. If you were unlucky, you slept on a chair, a table. a bench, newspaper or wherever you could find a few feet to yourself.
> 
> So the idea of crashing in sleeper (which I've also done during emergencies) with another person isn't repulsive in my mind. I've placed my head in far worse places.
> 
> However, I never worked almost 3 days straight in the process.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we're hijacking this thread and driving it off topic while having a debate over work rules that none of us are actually involved in. That being said, I would actually defer to actually crew members since it is their job.
> 
> In case anyone wants to talk about the actual cars, another batch of bags have been shipped south to correct the numerous issues that have cropped up. I look forward to seeing the first batch return. The mods should be interesting if the latest rumor is true.
Click to expand...

I look forward to seeing the modifications that have been made too.

I do recall the hate that came my way when I posted there were problems........


----------



## DryCreek

keelhauled said:


> I'm confused as to how the employees are demanding better sleeping accommodations. Surely Amtrak is not forcing paying passengers to go two to a room. If so, that would indeed be news to me. Presumably two people staying in a one room are doing so because they are traveling together and wish to do so. So unless the crew rooms are still getting little chocolates set out, they would seem to be identical accommodations to those that a single passenger in a roomette would get. To say nothing of the fact that there's nothing barring a single passenger from paying for an entire bedroom if they feel like they have some money to burn, which by any measure would seem to be a superior accommodation.


Uh Oh, now you've done it! You have clouded the rhetoric with factual observation. But, I was thinking the exact same thing myself.

Anyway, I have endured crowded berthing while serving in the U.S. Navy for six years. There were times when we had to carry excessive crew (SpecOps) and those of us regularly assigned aboard had to "hot rack". Yup, two bunks spread between three sailors. Since we worked three shifts a day, one of the three was always on watch, and you alternated between open bunks. Not very hygienic.

But, now when I travel, and when I traveled extensively while working at the shipyard I always got my own motel room. I guess that I should feel guilty about that? Now, if I was working the same train with my wife (or whatever partner you choose), I wouldn't complain about sharing a roomette. She knows I like to sleep nude, and probably wouldn't complain nearly as much as a different co-worker might.

In the photo posted above, I noticed the open bunking in what appears to be a converted boxcar. Those look like track section workers to me, not On Board Staff. When that picture was taken I'm sure that was considered normal company-provided lodging for them. I'd bet that todays track crews don't have bunkhouses like that. And, as far as the comparison to how the Pullman Porters were treated during their trips, I'm sure you can read gobs on how their unionizing efforts were successful in eliminating such conditions. That in itself speaks volume for their courage and ability to stick together in unity as those changes were made during the Jim Crow era - and I think we all know the demographic of the typical Pullman Porter during those years.


----------



## Ryan

Guest said:


> I thought the same when I was an entering freshmen in collage. What, having to share a dorm room? But I learned to tolerate it.


Still not the same, for many of the reasons I enumerated earlier - same roommate over the course of a year becomes not a stranger. More space, no in room toilet, other places you can go.


----------



## twa904

You should see the living quarter for staff on cruise ships.


----------



## andersone

Hey mike, this is America, don't tell me who I have to sleep with


----------



## Guest

twa904 said:


> You should see the living quarter for staff on cruise ships.


Actually, I have. I went on the "below the decks" tour during my cruise. Their quarters was pretty much like the interior cabins that paying passengers would be staying in.

Everyone else gets two to a cabin, kind of like it was in college dorms.

Supervisory staff have their own private quarters (a perk of rank). And daily housekeeping too (the crew doing this housekeeping are training to be passenger stewards).

Possibly it is kind-of weird to us, but the living quarter areas are broken up into male, female, and gay. The cruise industry was actively hiring gay employees, long before it was fashionable (starting from what the 1950's?).

Unlike on Amtrak, the crew have their own socializing and entertainment areas for when they are off duty, quite separate from passengers. They have their own dining rooms (and served by waitstaff in training), their own lounge/bar, their own gym area, and yes, even their own hot tub.


----------



## pvd

With very few exceptions most cruise ships are foreign flagged and exempt from US wage and labor law. Other than entertainment and some operating crew, staff is usually from developing nations, this enables cruise lines to pay wages we would be unable to live on in this country. The sad thing is, in our country, whenever somebody makes a good deal, or gets a little bit ahead, instead of saying "why can't I get that also" they say "why should they have it" When the middle class is gone, and all that is left is rich and poor, think very carefully at which group you are going to end up in. We are gradually becoming a giant third world country.


----------



## VentureForth

Guest said:


> twa904 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You should see the living quarter for staff on cruise ships.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I have. I went on the "below the decks" tour during my cruise. Their quarters was pretty much like the interior cabins that paying passengers would be staying in.
> 
> Everyone else gets two to a cabin, kind of like it was in college dorms.
Click to expand...

I think that's the exception rather than the rule. Again, the idea is to maximize the space for revenue and minimize the space while still being humane to the crew. From what I've read - and granted, it's not from personal observations - the crew get MUCH smaller rooms than even the lowest paying passenger.

If there is a way to put two per roomette when they aren't sleeping at the same time, it would help. A small padlock on the closet could be used to protect personal items.



Guest said:


> Unlike on Amtrak, the crew have their own socializing and entertainment areas for when they are off duty, quite separate from passengers. They have their own dining rooms (and served by waitstaff in training), their own lounge/bar, their own gym area, and yes, even their own hot tub.


Have you seen a diner after hours?


----------



## neroden

jimhudson said:


> As for insisting on OBS sharing Roomettes, I doubt if anyone would want to check into a hotel where on a trip and be told that they had to share a room with a co- worker or stranger like in a hostel!


Been there, done that. This is all rather off topic, of course.
But I stand by my observation that if the entire crew are getting better accomodations than typical premium-paying passengers (which they are)... then this isn't sustainable financially and will end with a *lot* fewer crew.

It is interesting to hear that Amtrak voluntarily offered this perk during the late 90s / early 2000s -- a time when Amtrak was running out of sleeper cars. Unbelievably poor management. Thank you very much to Thirdrail7 for the information.



Thirdrail7 said:


> For the record Neroden, my recollection is that Amtrak voluntarily separated the crews. It wasn't a union demand. Indeed, they shared rooms when I came around and cafe attendants on layovers didn't even get rooms. They weren't even allowed in the layover crew rooms. The took their breaks in the cafe car, guarding their stock.


Now, giving the the cafe attendants *somewhere* to sleep other than the cafe car, that's reasonable!



> All of that came to an end during a string of defeats in various lawsuits in the 90's/early 2000s and in my opinion, they did a complete 180 on various issues.


It would be interesting to see what the lawsuits were.



> There used to be crew suites and during emergencies, employees doubled up in hotel rooms. Not these days. Everyone is separated. Before you double up, there must be mutual consent. If not, a room does not have to be provided


Very interesting. Amtrak could of course go back to that on board -- "Don't like your roommate, you can always pay for your own room".



> but you can no longer order someone to double. Another result of that battle was the modesty lock on dual cab locomotives to satisfy the female engineers.
> 
> Over time, opinions evolve. Just because something was done years ago doesn't mean it is necessarily a good idea today. Just because something works in another country does not necessarily mean it is good idea here. Even if it IS a good idea, that doesn't mean it will hold up in court!


It would be interesting to see what the court cases were actually about. I strongly suspect that Amtrak management overreacted. Not just those in the military, but all kinds of professions have to bunk with coworkers (oil rigs come to mind, firefighters staying over at a firehouse, and as mentioned before, cruise ship workers). Anyway, thanks very much for your memories of the history.
I'm not sure it's clearly understood by the employees just how expensive a roomette is these days. This may be a change since the late 90s / early 2000s.

Relatively few passengers can afford a roomette at all. I can convince a fair number of people that a double-occupancy roomette is worth the money, but very few will consider a single-occupancy roomette reasonably priced, given that the cheapest bucket on the LSL (minus the transportation cost) generally costs over $200. The optics of this are "Staff gets luxury rooms for free as a perk", and financially, that's exactly what's going on.

If Amtrak is stuck with this, Amtrak will continue to cut OBS staff. The financial cost is too substantial, with each roomette being foregone revenue of a minimum of $10/hour, and up to $44/hour. This is a humungous percentage of wages. It's good to have good working conditions, but not when it drives your employer from profit to loss, which generally causes your job to go away.

The dining car will go first, because it costs a minimum of three roomettes (usually more like five). It's pretty obvious that Amtrak is already working on eliminating the dining cars. I'm not happy about it, but the economics of them are really terrible at current staffing levels, with current perks. Hopefully the cafe cars will be beefed up or the dining cars will be used to provide "fresh grill" service with cafe-style ordering.

Then the coach attendants will go, because they can be replaced with ACs who sleep off-board; the higher salaries & benefits for ACs will be more than made up for by the revenue from the roomettes.

The sleeping car attendants have to be located in the sleeping car to assist passengers, so they will remain (although Amtrak is clearly trying to have each Viewliner attendant handle one and a half cars); and the cafe car attendants will probably remain since it's not obvious how to replace them.

This isn't a scenario I like; I think it's bad for everyone. But it's the way things go if the cost of wages + benefits + perks is too high -- fewer and fewer employees.


----------



## jis

I am somewhat curious.... do you stuff a gay man and a straight man in the same roomette? How is that any different from putting a man and a woman in the same room, if the potential for unwanted sexual attraction and interaction is the determining factor? Would it then be OK to pair a gay and a lesbian together? As I said.... just curious since we are talking of stuffing two otherwise unrelated people together in a roomette in very close quarters. So in order to make all this work you'd require the employees to disclose their sexual orientation, which would be an interesting additional requirement. Oh well, I can see a lot of opportunities for litigation here. The lawyers must be feeling very good as they read these brilliant ideas.

Mind you, I don't have any specific position on this matter. I am just exploring possible issues that may arise.

Indeed in Europe and Asia in couchette type accommodation people who are otherwise unrelated are freely intermingled into single compartments. In India they will not generally put different sexes that are unrelated in the same compartment in AC 1st Class. That is why you do not get your actual seat/berth allocation until the final reservation charts are made. So it would all appear to be what is culturally acceptable in a particular context. I don;t know what is or is not acceptable in the US for sure. But I do know that Americans tend to be much more into their private space than most other cultures, so much so that couchette type accommodation and indeed even Sections do not work anymore in the US.


----------



## VentureForth

And rolling back a few posts, that's kinda the interesting aspect. We are dealing with a NEW American culture - and dare I say - one that is just about the most selfish.


----------



## jis

pvd said:


> With very few exceptions most cruise ships are foreign flagged and exempt from US wage and labor law. Other than entertainment and some operating crew, staff is usually from developing nations, this enables cruise lines to pay wages we would be unable to live on in this country. The sad thing is, in our country, whenever somebody makes a good deal, or gets a little bit ahead, instead of saying "why can't I get that also" they say "why should they have it" When the middle class is gone, and all that is left is rich and poor, think very carefully at which group you are going to end up in. We are gradually becoming a giant third world country.


So the challenge is to figure out how to run Amtrak under a foreign flag I suppose  But that would be cabotage, and that can not be allowed without severe consequences on the airline business.  Juuuust kidding of course.


----------



## Guest

jimhudson said:


> As for insisting on OBS sharing Roomettes, I doubt if anyone would want to check into a hotel where on a trip and be told that they had to share a room with a co- worker or stranger like in a hostel!


I have worked for large, major corporation, and for some conferences, we were booked two to a room. I am not sure if such was to simply save money, or to address the reality that the resort/hotel didn't have enough rooms for everyone to get their own.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> In case anyone wants to talk about the actual cars, another batch of bags have been shipped south to correct the numerous issues that have cropped up. I look forward to seeing the first batch return. The mods should be interesting if the latest rumor is true.


How many, when and where were they shipped? Are these new cars that have never been shipped out of CAF before? Or are these cars that were already accepted and are being sent to Hialeah for further work? I guess I am left a bit confused by your pithy message.


----------



## jis

Guest said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for insisting on OBS sharing Roomettes, I doubt if anyone would want to check into a hotel where on a trip and be told that they had to share a room with a co- worker or stranger like in a hostel!
> 
> 
> 
> I have worked for large, major corporation, and for some conferences, we were booked two to a room. I am not sure if such was to simply save money, or to address the reality that the resort/hotel didn't have enough rooms for everyone to get their own.
Click to expand...

Yup. It depends on the culture of the company. In some this is viewed as OK and in others not so much. Practices vary a lot even in different business units within the same company also depending on the level and role of the employees involved.


----------



## Guest

neroden said:


> Then the coach attendants will go, because they can be replaced with ACs who sleep off-board; the higher salaries & benefits for ACs will be more than made up for by the revenue from the roomettes.


AC's are under hours of service so no way using them would make up for revenue from roomettes. They get on and off at turn around points timed so they don't outlaw. Coach attendents stay on the whole trip. And at those turn around points the AC is put up in a hotel room.


----------



## PaulM

jis said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In case anyone wants to talk about the actual cars, another batch of bags have been shipped south to correct the numerous issues that have cropped up. I look forward to seeing the first batch return. The mods should be interesting if the latest rumor is true.
> 
> 
> 
> How many, when and where were they shipped? Are these new cars that have never been shipped out of CAF before? Or are these cars that were already accepted and are being sent to Hialeah for further work? I guess I am left a bit confused by your pithy message.
Click to expand...

Yes, he made a valiant effort to get the discussion back on track, but left us hanging. What were the defects, and did the show up during the first trip south or only after some actual service?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

PaulM said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> … another batch of bags have been shipped south to correct the numerous issues that have cropped up. I look forward to seeing the first batch return. The mods should be interesting if the latest rumor is true.
> 
> 
> 
> How many, when and where were they shipped? … being sent to Hialeah for further work? ... a bit confused by your pithy message.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, he made a valiant effort to get the discussion back on track, but left us hanging.
Click to expand...

We're all glad to know that more bag cars have left Elmira, but we're hungry for details.

For one thing, we'd like to keep a running total of bag cars accepted from CAF. We had one posted a ways back, but now add "a batch" gives a new total of what?

The order is for 70. Until we get real close to that number, we can't even do a good guestimate of when the diners might start to dribble out the factory door.


----------



## R30A

I don't think this is involving cars coming from Elmira. I believe he is referring to cars moving south from their current assignments down to Hialeah for mods. (That said, I have seen pictures of cars ready for pickup in Elmira, one of which was numbered 61042, along with what looked like another diner being decaled, which makes me think we might see some non baggage cars soon too! )


----------



## TiBike

R30A said:


> That said, I have seen pictures of cars ready for pickup in Elmira, one of which was numbered 61042, along with what looked like another diner being decaled, which makes me think we might see some non baggage cars soon too!


Maybe all the baggage cars are built, but not fit for service?


----------



## XHRTSP

jis said:


> I am somewhat curious.... do you stuff a gay man and a straight man in the same roomette? How is that any different from putting a man and a woman in the same room, if the potential for unwanted sexual attraction and interaction is the determining factor? Would it then be OK to pair a gay and a lesbian together? As I said.... just curious since we are talking of stuffing two otherwise unrelated people together in a roomette in very close quarters. So in order to make all this work you'd require the employees to disclose their sexual orientation, which would be an interesting additional requirement. Oh well, I can see a lot of opportunities for litigation here. The lawyers must be feeling very good as they read these brilliant ideas.


Really? These were basically the exact concerns expressed before the repeal of DADT. Just like the experts said would happen, nothing happened.


----------



## jis

In a rational world nothing should happen. But the world is less than rational when it comes to these things. Specially the recent law making regarding toilet access would not give one great comfort about rationality. In a rational world there would also be no need to have separate toilets.


----------



## AlexandriaVATraveler

Sleeping in compartments with strangers of the same gender is very common in Europe, between hostels and train roomettes. Perhaps American sensibilities, as mentioned in the post by jis at 11:47 AM on 7 May, are simply too conservative for such an arrangement. Perhaps it is a result of the rampant socialism over there


----------



## Thirdrail7

R30A said:


> I don't think this is involving cars coming from Elmira. I believe he is referring to cars moving south from their current assignments down to Hialeah for mods. (That said, I have seen pictures of cars ready for pickup in Elmira, one of which was numbered 61042, along with what looked like another diner being decaled, which makes me think we might see some non baggage cars soon too! )


Indeed. It ties into the previous post I made responding to an inquiry made by Woody:



Thirdrail7 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know when the other cars are scheduled to enter service?
> 
> 
> 
> The funny thing is earlier this week talking to folks at the NARP meeting including one from Amtrak I got the distinct impression that it is possible that even Amtrak does not know for sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not even sure they have received all the bags cars.
> 
> I was distracted the last month or so, but after 18 bags cars sent to Hialeah in a convoy, and then another10 followed, did they finally get to the 70-car revised total?
> 
> And do we think any of the bag cars will go back to CAF to fix the heating strip problem and other alleged flaws, perhaps if improved parts arrive from a supplier?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *The field mods are being handled in Hialeah. The cars are being cycled through in batches to adjust some of the things Guest Guest mentioned...among other things. Hopefully, they'll come back a bit more user friendly and everyone will get on the same page because some locations are still pushing the "do not use the shelves" angle.*
Click to expand...

Another group of previously released cars made their way to Hialeah over the last week or so to receive field mods. .As for cars at the factory, I believe the 61042 you saw in Elmira has company and they will all be fetched soon.


----------



## neroden

Good to see the field mods going on. Contrary to many predictions, it seems like baggage demand is going up... so these cars will be used!


----------



## Palmetto

Neroden,

Just curious here: what indications would there be that demand for baggage service is up? Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## Acela150

I too am curious.


----------



## neroden

Totally anecdotal. Sorry. I could be wrong.... it just seems like people are travelling heavier.


----------



## jis

In any case there is no doubt that those cars will be used, since even with the full complement delivered there will be barely enough to cover all, needs.


----------



## George K

jis said:


> In any case there is no doubt that those cars will be used, since even with the full complement delivered there will be barely enough to cover all, needs.


Interesting. I had no idea that the Viewliner fleet was in such a sorry state. Wikipedia says that there are 73 "heritage" baggage cars. The order from CAF is, what, 70?

Also, can anyone be more specific about the "issues" that have been found that need attention?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

George K said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> In any case there is no doubt that those cars will be used, since even with the full complement delivered there will be barely enough to cover all, needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. I had no idea that the Viewliner fleet was in such a sorry state. Wikipedia says that there are 73 "heritage" baggage cars. The order from CAF is, what, 70?
> 
> Also, can anyone be more specific about the "issues" that have been found that need attention?
Click to expand...

Most (or all?) of the Heritage baggage cars are considerably shorter than the Viewliners. But I don't know if any trains regularly used 2 bags cars so that a single larger capacity Viewliner bag will do the job of two Heritage cars.

As for the "issues", they were discussed over several pages not that long ago. Simply scroll back to the beginning of April I think will do it, and scan the posts until you find the subject beaten to death. There's really no need for us to re-discuss what has been amply discussed very recently. Of course, if any informed sources have more specifics and new information, that would be welcomed by all.


----------



## Friar J

Viewliner 2 baggage in Seattle Coachyard tonight


----------



## sechs

George K said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> In any case there is no doubt that those cars will be used, since even with the full complement delivered there will be barely enough to cover all, needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia says that there are 73 "heritage" baggage cars. The order from CAF is, what, 70?
Click to expand...

70 baggage cars plus 10 bag-dorms


----------



## PRR 60

sechs said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> In any case there is no doubt that those cars will be used, since even with the full complement delivered there will be barely enough to cover all, needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia says that there are 73 "heritage" baggage cars. The order from CAF is, what, 70?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 70 baggage cars plus 10 bag-dorms
Click to expand...

Per the OTOL Amtrak car roster, there are approximately 51 heritage baggage cars.


----------



## Ryan

The 73 number probably refers to all of the Heritage cars, both bags and diners.


----------



## afigg

PRR 60 said:


> sechs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wikipedia says that there are 73 "heritage" baggage cars. The order from CAF is, what, 70?
> 
> 
> 
> 70 baggage cars plus 10 bag-dorms
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Per the OTOL Amtrak car roster, there are approximately 51 heritage baggage cars.
Click to expand...

If you look at the By the Numbers update on the On-Track On-Line site, Amtrak has retired 13 Heritage baggage cars since Dec, 2014. Which is consistent with Amtrak's budget and Five year plan documents which list 64 Heritage Baggage cars on the fleet roster at the end of FY2013 and 63 at the end of FY2014. There were 2 baggage cars disposed of in 2011 and 2 in 2012. So Amtrak's Heritage baggage car fleet has been shrinking due to attrition losses and probably cars getting to the point of beyond maintenance repair. There may been 73 Heritage baggage cars officially on the roster some 5 or 10 years ago.


----------



## jis

That is the reason that several Amcafes have been doing duty as baggage car on several trains of late, as have Coach-Baggages on Superliner trains. It should also be remembered that for quite a while several trains that ought to have baggage cars and had baggage cars in the past, have not had them simply because there are not enough to go around.


----------



## Thirdrail7

> Another group of previously released cars made their way to Hialeah over the last week or so to receive field mods. .As for cars at the factory, I believe the 61042 you saw in Elmira has company and they will all be fetched soon.


Very soon. Make him proud:


----------



## jis

LOL!


----------



## CCC1007

Just saw one on 7(14) reported added to the train at MOT


----------



## AlanB

afigg said:


> There may been 73 Heritage baggage cars officially on the roster some 5 or 10 years ago.


Looking back at the OTOL roster for 2003, there were 54 regular baggage cars active, along with 3 cars painted for the Vermonter, 3 cars painted for the Twilight Shoreliner, and 5 bags painted for use on the Adirondack/Ethan Allen. That's a total of 65 outright baggage cars.

Also on the list at that time were 25 coaches that had been converted into baggage/mail cars. And Amtrak had 65 material handling cars that in a pinch could also be used as a baggage car.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

AlanB said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> There may been 73 Heritage baggage cars officially on the roster some 5 or 10 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking back at the OTOL roster for 2003, there were 54 regular baggage cars active, along with 3 cars painted for the Vermonter, 3 cars painted for the Twilight Shoreliner, and 5 bags painted for use on the Adirondack/Ethan Allen. That's a total of 65 outright baggage cars.
> 
> Also on the list at that time were 25 coaches that had been converted into baggage/mail cars. And Amtrak had 65 material handling cars that in a pinch could also be used as a baggage car.
Click to expand...

I recall seeing a string of MHCs parked on the southern approach to LAUS; that was about 3 years ago. Is that the entire fleet, or are some strung out elsewhere? If Amtrak has no plans to use them, I'm surprised they do not sell them as I'm sure they still have a lot of Meat left on them.


----------



## neroden

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I recall seeing a string of MHCs parked on the southern approach to LAUS; that was about 3 years ago. Is that the entire fleet, or are some strung out elsewhere? If Amtrak has no plans to use them, I'm surprised they do not sell them as I'm sure they still have a lot of Meat left on them.


FWIW, the freight rail business demand for boxcars has been steadily dropping. I haven't been paying close attention but I'm not sure any new boxcars have been built in decades.

Open "gondolas", covered gondolas, and hoppers still seem to be solid business, along with (of course) flatcars, well cars, autoracks, and tank cars. But boxcar business has been in continuous decline for my entire life -- and metal boxcars last until they rust or crash.

This means that the resale value of the MHCs may be nonexistent.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Why hasn't Amtrak sold all this junk for scrap value? Noone wants those cars ( and lots of other junk sitting @ various sights in the US)

Amtrak will not be getting back in the Freight or Mail hauling business so why hang on to them??

Remember the Turboliners??


----------



## Guest

jimhudson said:


> Remember the Turboliners??


I barely remember the Turboliners being sold, and with such I don't remember if such was the consists owned by Amtrak or the consists owned by NY. Or was it both?


----------



## jis

Guest said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the Turboliners??
> 
> 
> 
> I barely remember the Turboliners being sold, and with such I don't remember if such was the consists owned by Amtrak or the consists owned by NY. Or was it both?
Click to expand...

The Turbos that were rotting at the old Supersteel facility were sold. I am not sure that the ones stored at Bear have been fully disposed off yet. Any definitive information on those?


----------



## afigg

jimhudson said:


> Why hasn't Amtrak sold all this junk for scrap value? Noone wants those cars ( and lots of other junk sitting @ various sights in the US)
> 
> Amtrak will not be getting back in the Freight or Mail hauling business so why hang on to them??
> 
> Remember the Turboliners??


Amtrak may still be making lease payments on the MHC cars from the Warrington era. If those cars were purchased with a 15 or 20 year lease, Amtrak may have to store them until the lease is closed out. The scrap value for the cars is likely quite small. Look at what NY state got for the 3 Turboliners? About $500K total, if I recall correctly?


----------



## neroden

Also, storing them is is still cheap. Amtrak hasn't made any indications of running out of yard space.


----------



## NE933

Ok, back to new Viewliner II's. Any more coming soon?


----------



## Thirdrail7

NE933 said:


> Ok, back to new Viewliner II's. Any more coming soon?


As indicated a few posts above, yes...and they are shooting around in all directions now that the corridor is open. New bags, mods, training, you name it.

It is going on...right now actually.


----------



## AlanB

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I recall seeing a string of MHCs parked on the southern approach to LAUS; that was about 3 years ago. Is that the entire fleet, or are some strung out elsewhere? If Amtrak has no plans to use them, I'm surprised they do not sell them as I'm sure they still have a lot of Meat left on them.


Those would most likely be the ones purchased for the failed experiment for moving freight on the rear of the Amtrak trains, and not the one's that I mentioned. The one's I mentioned were used more for mail and then later baggage, before mostly being retired to my knowledge.

But some of the MHC's purchased for Express Trak were retained by Amtrak for reasons unknown by me.


----------



## hastybob

Heads up - deadhead move today from Albany to Elmira to pick up more cars. Will return tomorrow.


----------



## neroden

hastybob said:


> Heads up - deadhead move today from Albany to Elmira to pick up more cars. Will return tomorrow.


Still 100% baggage cars, I presume?


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heads up - deadhead move today from Albany to Elmira to pick up more cars. Will return tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Still 100% baggage cars, I presume?
Click to expand...

As previously stated:



Thirdrail7 said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, back to new Viewliner II's. Any more coming soon?
> 
> 
> 
> As indicated a few posts above, yes...and they are shooting around in all directions now that the corridor is open. *New bags*, mods, training, you name it.
> 
> It is going on...right now actually.
Click to expand...


Another group is being cycled to Hialeah for mods as well. They still have quite a bit to go.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Thirdrail7 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still 100% baggage cars, I presume?
> 
> 
> 
> Heads up - deadhead move today from Albany to Elmira to pick up more cars. Will return tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> As previously stated:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, back to new Viewliner II's. Any more coming soon?
> As indicated a few posts above, yes...and they are shooting around in all directions now that the corridor is open. *New bags*, mods, training, you name it.
> 
> It is going on...right now actually.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another group is being cycled to Hialeah for mods as well. They still have quite a bit to go.
Click to expand...

This is a nice piece of news altogether, after a sad and depressing week.

*Does anyone have a running count *go VII bags accepted by Amtrak?

iirc, it was 18, then 10 more, got us to 28 thru Hialeah, then another "batch" … If a "batch" is 10, we're already at 38, out of the 70 ordered, so that's more than halfway home. Add the next "batch" you that hear coming, we could get to 48 out of 70, with still 22 to go.

We could have the full 70 bags working for Amtrak by the end of the Fiscal Year. Then by year end, can we hope to see a "batch" of diners at long last.


----------



## jis

Woody, the On Track On Line Amtrak Roster for LDSL is your friend. Click on the link and see the latest.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Thanks for the support. The link says 38.

As I said, "We're already at 38, out of the 70 ordered, so that's more than halfway home."

The original post on this thread said they were originally set to begin service in 2012. Then the schedule slipped a bit. But Amtrak accepted the first bag cars in February. So get half of them on the tracks in three months looks good.

With four months to go, I'm hoping to see the bag car portion of the order finished before Fiscal 2016 begins.

Then comes the hardest part, the 25 diners, maybe by this time next year, maybe later.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

reported on another forum , todays move: Ten more Viewliner II Baggage Cars departed this morning from the CAF plant in Elmira Heights, NY. 

Train consist 
73 
61045 
61042 
61041 
61047 
61040 
61046 
61043 
61044 
61038 
61039 
82512 
520


----------



## tommylicious

where are the pax cars??


----------



## Ryan

Still being built.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Diners shouldn't be as hard or take as long since the Prototype #8400 has been around so long and has actually been in service on the Eastern LD Routes!


----------



## afigg

Dutchrailnut said:


> reported on another forum , todays move: Ten more Viewliner II Baggage Cars departed this morning from the CAF plant in Elmira Heights, NY.
> 
> Train consist
> 
> ....
> 
> 61047
> 
> ....


Assuming that the cars have been delivered in sequence or that is the net effect of the prior deliveries, then CAF has indeed shipped 48 baggage cars (counting from 61000). So 22 more to go of the baggage cars.

As for the diner cars, presumably the first 2 diner cars will have to be shipped for extensive testing and training with another likely round of modifications resulting from the testing and crew feedback. Hopefully, CAF will be able to (re-)ship the first diner car for testing while completing the build-out of the 70 baggage cars.


----------



## StriderGDM

tommylicious said:


> where are the pax cars??


If you mean coach cars (I assume that's what you mean by pax), there are none ordered at this time.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

StriderGDM said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> where are the pax cars??
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean coach cars (I assume that's what you mean by pax), there are none ordered at this time.
Click to expand...

He may mean sleepers


----------



## Thirdrail7

I can't say I noticed any interior mods.


----------



## MARC Rider

May 22, 6:55 PM

#97 just pulled into WAS with 5 VL2 baggage cars at the rear. Also, for what it's worth, the cioaches are at the rear, which I guess means the sleepers are in the front.


----------



## Ryan

Yep! Here she is rolling through Odenton:

(although today is the 21st  )


----------



## Thirdrail7

97(22) should have the rest of the bags.


----------



## neroden

You mean the other 5, or the REST of the bags?


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> You mean the other 5, or the REST of the bags?


Pretty sure Thirdrail7 means the remaining 5 cars from this batch. They are not wasting time moving the cars down to Hialeah. If the next 5 go south on #97(22), that means all 10 baggage cars will be in Hialeah by Saturday night. I expect that the next high profile step will be for a bunch of new baggage cars to make their way west of Chicago for training at the maintenance shops and crew change stops. One new baggage car is reportedly already in Seattle for training.


----------



## CCC1007

Two

While the first was in Seattle, a second went west on the builder


----------



## tommylicious

AmtrakBlue said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> where are the pax cars??
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean coach cars (I assume that's what you mean by pax), there are none ordered at this time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He may mean sleepers
Click to expand...

Yeah where are the sleepers?? The bags are cool but bring on the sleepers!!! Where are they?


----------



## Ryan

They're coming last.


----------



## mgl1978

Amtrak 97-22 with 5 more baggages for delivery.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> You mean the other 5, or the REST of the bags?


The post from mgl1978 shows a "half batch", LOL.

So we're up to 48. I figure one car a week now, gets us to the full 70-bag-car order by the end of this fiscal year (maybe one or two short at worst).

Then the diners, crucial for cost cutting. Get a "batch" of 10 by the holidays? What a nice present that would be! Get the rest of the diners by this time next year, barring some problem bigger than under-performing shelving or over-performing heating units.

Get the short order for 15 bag-dorms by the end of Fiscal 2016. Begin getting sleepers in Fiscal 2017.

So we wait until FY 2017 to see added capacity, more revenues, greater utilization of diners, etc. But hey, we've waited this long, another couple of years won't hurt too bad.

Still hoping for part of the 70-car option order. We probably don't need the full 70, because rail funding was shut off by Congress. So we don't have any more frequencies or new routes to use them all. But a handful of diners and bag dorms, and another 20 or 25 sleepers would be great for even the near term.

Perhaps get enuff new cars (along with the handful used in the Midwest and Cali that will be replaced by bi-level cars in 2017) to change the Capitol Ltd. into a single-level train, and send its three sets of equipment out West to the Superliner trains while they wait and wait and wait for a replacement order for their aging fleet. There's still enuff time to find some more money.


----------



## CHamilton

New baggage car in King Street Station, Seattle, yesterday afternoon.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Nice pics Charlie! Thanks for sharing!

Its s shame that these shiney new cars will be in the consist with the ratty, dirty, tired Superliners from the Builder and Starlight!

Wouldn't it be great to see an All New Superliner train pull into the station?

Reminds me of back in the day when the Superliners were brand new!


----------



## George K

jimhudson said:


> Its s shame that these shiney new cars will be in the consist with the ratty, dirty, tired Superliners from the Builder and Starlight!


Yeah, but....

Look at how nice the ratty, dirty, tired Superliners looked compared to the rattier, dirtier, more tired bags they used to have!

#glasshalfffull


----------



## neroden

WoodyinNYC said:


> Still hoping for part of the 70-car option order. We probably don't need the full 70, because rail funding was shut off by Congress. So we don't have any more frequencies or new routes to use them all. But a handful of diners and bag dorms, and another 20 or 25 sleepers would be great for even the near term.


The sleepers would sink right into the existing trains. When I was trying to figure out how many options Amtrak should exercise, I came up with one or two diners at most, enough bag-dorms to make a reasonably-sized class of cars (which means 10), and as many sleepers as Amtrak can get their hands on.



> Perhaps get enuff new cars (along with the handful used in the Midwest and Cali that will be replaced by bi-level cars in 2017) to change the Capitol Ltd. into a single-level train, and send its three sets of equipment out West to the Superliner trains while they wait and wait and wait for a replacement order for their aging fleet. There's still enuff time to find some more money.


----------



## StriderGDM

neroden said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still hoping for part of the 70-car option order. We probably don't need the full 70, because rail funding was shut off by Congress. So we don't have any more frequencies or new routes to use them all. But a handful of diners and bag dorms, and another 20 or 25 sleepers would be great for even the near term.
> 
> 
> 
> The sleepers would sink right into the existing trains. When I was trying to figure out how many options Amtrak should exercise, I came up with one or two diners at most, enough bag-dorms to make a reasonably-sized class of cars (which means 10), and as many sleepers as Amtrak can get their hands on.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps get enuff new cars (along with the handful used in the Midwest and Cali that will be replaced by bi-level cars in 2017) to change the Capitol Ltd. into a single-level train, and send its three sets of equipment out West to the Superliner trains while they wait and wait and wait for a replacement order for their aging fleet. There's still enuff time to find some more money.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Maybe.

Amtrak would have 1 or 2 possible options:

Extend the Palmetto back into a full Silver Service train.

Add a sleeper back the 66/67 (ok, an existing train, but new service).

Recreate the 3 Rivers to Chicago.

Beyond that, yeah, hard to see completely new service (perhaps an overnight Montrealer?)


----------



## NE933

So, anything moving with the Viewliner II's? Any news?


----------



## TylerP42

Saw Viewliner II Baggage 61007 Today at Toledo on 49 LSL. Video soon(ish)


----------



## CCC1007

61004 was on 8(10)


----------



## Acela150

NE933 said:


> So, anything moving with the Viewliner II's? Any news?


Nothing new. You'd hear.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Acela150 said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, anything moving with the Viewliner II's? Any news?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing new. You'd hear.
Click to expand...

It hasn't been that long since a batch of 10 left CAF. Are they being completed only once a week, or once a week on both lines? If it's two per week, they'll need five weeks to get another 10-batch ready.

Dutch Rail Nut, post # 2043 above, on May 20 reported a batch of 10 heading to Hialeah. So by my crude calculations, we'll probably see 10 more by the end of June.

We're now at 38 out of the 70 order, another 10 would get us to 48. Two more batches during July, August, and September. We should be able to *declare victory* in the baggage car battle by the beginning of Fiscal 2016 on October 1.

But my crystal ball clouds over at that point!


----------



## neroden

At some point the revised "pilot" diner, bag-dorm, and sleeper should return for second-round testing. (Remember, they came out, were tested, and went back.) We have no way of knowing when that will happen but it should be the next big milestone.


----------



## Thirdrail7

NE933 said:


> So, anything moving with the Viewliner II's? Any news?


Modifications on the bags that were previously released for revenue service continues. The latest batch from the factory is in the process of being deployed for western operations.

In fact, if anyone wants to mosey out track side, 29(13) is supposed to have a group on the head end for western revenue deployment. Additionally, 29 and 30 is supposed to go over to the viewliner bags next week.


----------



## Acela150

Thank you for the information TR7. You're always of help!


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> We're now at 38 out of the 70 order, another 10 would get us to 48. Two more batches during July, August, and September. We should be able to *declare victory* in the baggage car battle by the beginning of Fiscal 2016 on October 1.


CAF has shipped a total of 48 baggage cars, not 38. There were 38 baggage cars on the roster as of May 1 and the circa May 20 delivery shipped 10 more. If you look back to the May 20 equipment move reports, the highest car number was 61047. So there are 22 more baggage cars to be delivered out of Elmira plus however many previously shipped baggage cars undergoing field mods before being released to revenue service.
If there will be enough new cars soon for deployment to the western LD trains, which one would switch over first? The Empire builder?


----------



## neroden

I'm guessing all the western trains will get the new cars nearly simultaneously; that's what happened to the eastern trains.

Although it really depends on when training finishes, which depends on when training *starts*. We've seen a Viewliner baggage car at Seattle. If we don't see a Viewliner baggage car at Oakland or LA for a while, then the Empire Builder is definitely getting them first!


----------



## tommylicious

where are the new sleepers and diners?


----------



## Ryan

tommylicious said:


> where are the pax cars??





Ryan said:


> Still being built.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

tommylicious said:


> where are the pax cars??


Asked and answered.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

WoodyinNYC said:


> ...
> 
> So we're up to 48. I figure one car a week now, gets us to the full 70-bag-car order by the end of this fiscal year ...
> 
> Then the diners, crucial for cost cutting. Get a "batch" of 10 by the holidays? … Get the rest of the diners by this time next year, barring some problem bigger than under-performing shelving or over-performing heating units.
> 
> Get the short order for 15 bag-dorms by the end of Fiscal 2016. Begin getting sleepers in Fiscal 2017.
> 
> ...


Repeating for anyone who missed the info.


----------



## Amtrak172

Forgive me, but what are the "pax" cars?


----------



## TylerP42

Saw Baggage 61004 in Toledo on CL 30 last night., along with ACS-64 #647 getting delivered to WAS, They weren't using the viewliner II Baggage, they were using a heritage baggage car.


----------



## JoeBas

Amtrak172 said:


> Forgive me, but what are the "pax" cars?


From a practical standpoint, "pax" stands for "passengers", so he's asking about the diners and/or sleepers.

From a more philosophical standpoint, I think asking what the "pax" cars are, given that they don't yet exist, is a bit of a metaphysical apex.


----------



## TiBike

afigg said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're now at 38 out of the 70 order, another 10 would get us to 48. Two more batches during July, August, and September. We should be able to *declare victory* in the baggage car battle by the beginning of Fiscal 2016 on October 1.
> 
> 
> 
> CAF has shipped a total of 48 baggage cars, not 38. There were 38 baggage cars on the roster as of May 1 and the circa May 20 delivery shipped 10 more. If you look back to the May 20 equipment move reports, the highest car number was 61047. So there are 22 more baggage cars to be delivered out of Elmira plus however many previously shipped baggage cars undergoing field mods before being released to revenue service.
Click to expand...


Given the time required to fix the cars after taking delivery, it still looks like sometime in September. If they're waiting for full deployment before allowing bikes onboard, then it looks like another summer lost.

Anyone heard any rumors of bikes onboard the east coast trains yet?


----------



## Agent

Amtrak #29(14) went west with two Viewliner II baggage cars, and Amtrak #29(15) had one.

Also, Amtrak #4(13) was seen going east with baggage car AMTK 61002 on the end of it.


----------



## DryCreek

JoeBas said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me, but what are the "pax" cars?
> 
> 
> 
> From a practical standpoint, "pax" stands for "passengers", so he's asking about the diners and/or sleepers.
> 
> From a more philosophical standpoint, I think asking what the "pax" cars are, given that they don't yet exist, is a bit of a metaphysical apex.
Click to expand...

From an even more philosophical standpoint, since the Latin word _pax_ translates (roughly) to _peace_, I can believe that unless cell phone transmission blocking technology, and ways to defend against other nuisances are added, there truly cannot be a "pax" car.

(or "paxful" car?)


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Amtrak172 said:


> Forgive me, but what are the "pax" cars?


He means passenger cars, usually coaches and sleepers.

In this order, only sleepers will actually carry passengers. The order include diners, coming next we think, and the baggage cars, of course, but no passengers pay to ride in those cars.


----------



## neroden

Agent said:


> Also, Amtrak #4(13) was seen going east with baggage car AMTK 61002 on the end of it.


That's particularly interesting. Last sighting of 61002 was in Seattle. If it's going "home" on #4 (the Southwest Chief) that means it visited LA. I'm therefore suspecting there's been some training going on in LA as well as Seattle. We might see the baggage cars deployed across everything west of Chicago simultaneously.


----------



## CCC1007

7(15) had 61046 in service, the only baggage car in the consist!!!


----------



## Ryan

That doesn't look half bad!!!


----------



## VentureForth

I know you'll disagree, but I don't think it really looks half good. A retro livery along with the "squished box" look in between two straight-sided units with the otherwise latest livery looks a bit kooky to me.

But it looks way better than the heritage.


----------



## CCC1007

I put out a video as well on google plus. I don't have the link to put here though...


----------



## Train2104

Agent said:


> Amtrak #29(14) went west with two Viewliner II baggage cars, and Amtrak #29(15) had one.
> 
> Also, Amtrak #4(13) was seen going east with baggage car AMTK 61002 on the end of it.


Why were there 4 cars on 29 (14) between the transdorm and the CCC? I thought 29 runs w/ 2 sleepers + 3 coaches.


----------



## TylerP42

6 or 7 viewliner II baggage cars in chicago attached to the dome car. and one on the 29 today (dead head)


----------



## Ryan

VentureForth said:


> I know you'll disagree, but I don't think it really looks half good. A retro livery along with the "squished box" look in between two straight-sided units with the otherwise latest livery looks a bit kooky to me.
> 
> But it looks way better than the heritage.


Eh, that's what I said only half good. Definitely better than the heritage, which is what got it the positive slant. There is some symmetry in the fluted sides coming up partway and them smooth sides on top that is pleasing to the eye. I do agree that the shape and livery differences pull the overall look down.


----------



## CCC1007

Found a way of getting the link on iOS

Here it is

https://plus.google.com/116826585842951786832/posts/X3kNQHheXqQ


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> That doesn't look half bad!!!


You're right! I kinda like it! I still wish they were in IVb, that's just me.


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know you'll disagree, but I don't think it really looks half good. A retro livery along with the "squished box" look in between two straight-sided units with the otherwise latest livery looks a bit kooky to me.
> 
> But it looks way better than the heritage.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, that's what I said only half good. Definitely better than the heritage, which is what got it the positive slant. There is some symmetry in the fluted sides coming up partway and them smooth sides on top that is pleasing to the eye. I do agree that the shape and livery differences pull the overall look down.
Click to expand...

True, I think they'd look better if the entire train were in Phase III, or in my opinion, Phase IVb.


----------



## Agent

Amtrak train #5(18) is heading west now with AMTK 61002. This is the first Viewliner II on the _California Zephyr_. Right behind it is a heritage baggage car, so could this one be going west for some more crew training? This train also private varnish NYC 3 _Portland_ on the end of it.

As a side note, has anyone seen what flashing police lights look like being reflected by the side of an Amtrak train?


----------



## neroden

So, what's the current status: sounds like the Viewliner baggage cars are in service on *all* the single-level trains, plus the Empire Builder, plus the Capitol Limited. Are they in service on the other bilevel trains, or still 'training'?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> So, what's the current status: sounds like the Viewliner baggage cars are in service on *all* the single-level trains, plus the Empire Builder, plus the Capitol Limited. Are they in service on the other bilevel trains, or still 'training'?


Amtrak is working with 48 of the new bag cars as of May 20 or so, when a batch of 10 left the CAF assembly plant. That left 22 to go. I'd expected another batch out the door by now.

Well, maybe Amtrak wants the full order in completed condition -- no retrofitting of heating elements or shelving needed -- before putting them all to work. And before making big noise about this big step on the Viewliner deliveries.

I do expect Amtrak will get all 70 bag cars by the end of this Fiscal Year, September 30.

So we wait some more. We're used to it.


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> Amtrak is working with 48 of the new bag cars as of May 20 or so, when a batch of 10 left the CAF assembly plant. That left 22 to go. I'd expected another batch out the door by now.
> 
> Well, maybe Amtrak wants the full order in completed condition -- no retrofitting of heating elements or shelving needed -- before putting them all to work. And before making big noise about this big step on the Viewliner deliveries.
> 
> I do expect Amtrak will get all 70 bag cars by the end of this Fiscal Year, September 30.
> 
> So we wait some more. We're used to it.


Yea, it is now two months since the last batch of baggage cars was shipped from Elmira. CAF may have caught up with the backlog of physical construction of the baggage cars shells, frames, trucks with the last delivery. If that is the case, then the delivery rate of the baggage cars becomes constrained by their monthly fabrication and production rate

As for waiting, given the delays in the CAF order, we may see the first batch of bi-level corridor cars delivered for advanced testing prior to entering revenue service before the last of the 130 Viewliner IIs are delivered. I think the odds that the first Nippon-Sharyo Pilot test cars being shipped out prior to completion of the CAF order are quite good. I'm talking about the follow-up delivery some months later of the first "production" batch of bi-levels for the final rounds of testing. Yes, it is  .


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> So, what's the current status: sounds like the Viewliner baggage cars are in service on *all* the single-level trains, plus the Empire Builder, plus the Capitol Limited. Are they in service on the other bilevel trains, or still 'training'?


They were being deployed for training, Neroden. A few more are heading out to the various crew bases soon.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I had a chance to poke my head in a Viewliner Bag as WAS today and was impressed with the design and new car smell. Now I just wish Amtrak took more care of keeping rolling stock in top appearance as next track over was a new Sprinter already filthy and splattered with bugs and debris.

A Clean Train is an Appealing Train!


----------



## lo2e

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I had a chance to poke my head in a Viewliner Bag as WAS today and was impressed with the design and new car smell. Now I just wish Amtrak took more care of keeping rolling stock in top appearance as next track over was a new Sprinter already filthy and splattered with bugs and debris.
> 
> A Clean Train is an Appealing Train!


In principle I don't disagree with you on keeping trains clean, but come on - this is the summer, the entire NEC is hot and humid and full of bugs - it would be a nearly endless job trying to keep them spotless during this season. Let's give Amtrak a little bit of benefit of the doubt that it just wouldn't be humanly possible physically (and certainly not financially) to give every locomotive an aggressive scrub after every run.


----------



## jphjaxfl

The Santa Fe used to paint the Super Chief's wheels before each run after a thorough cleaning so it looked like a new train.


----------



## jis

jphjaxfl said:


> The Santa Fe used to paint the Super Chief's wheels before each run after a thorough cleaning so it looked like a new train.


It is safe to say that nothing of the sort is going to happen anymore


----------



## MattW

I'm guessing more because paint is disallowed on certain surfaces? (couplers too IIRC)


----------



## Thirdrail7




----------



## Ryan




----------



## neroden

So I'm guessing from the zeitgeist we'll see some more baggage cars soon. I can only hope to see the release of the "revised" pilot cars for the other three types someday....


----------



## Amtrak172

Ok, this is a little off topic. I am on AMTK P020 and just left WAS. I've been looking at and paying more attention to AMTK's 10-6 sleepers. I saw 10021 "Pacific Cape" sitting with 10005 at the station. I read somewhere that the 10020 "Pacific Bend" on the exhibit train used to be "Pacific Command" while painted in Phase IVb. 10021 Pacific Cape is in Phase IVb, but does not have an amtrak logo on it. 10020 is now Phase III, obviously. Anyway, back when 10020 was Pacific Command, it was in Phase IVb and did have and amtrak logo. So...as I departed WAS, I past the Amtrak yard and saw a 10-6 sleeper in Phase IVb with an amtrak logo. It wasn't 10021 because 10021 was in the station. Can someone tell me what car I saw?


----------



## afigg

So, now it is the beginning of August. The last reported move of baggage cars from Elimira was in May. Meanwhile, Amtrak appears to be having problems keeping the Heritage dining cars running. Any rumors about a move of baggage cars or test cars of the other 3 types in the near future?

BTW, as a reminder, the FY15 Five year financial plan released earlier this year said this about the Viewliner IIs: "Deliveries of additional cars began in the First Quarter of FY15, and the final unit will be delivered by the end of April 2016." Anyone want to take a bet that CAF will meet the April 2016 date?


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


>


----------



## Thirdrail7

I'll just stick this here for now. Your new bags are working harder starting today:

Walk-Up Checked Bike Service on the Carolinian

Please allow a brief fair use quote:



> Don't let your bike sit at home while you have all the fun — take it with you on your next train trip and explore North Carolina car-free. It's easy with walk-up checked bicycle service. This free service is available on Carolinian Trains 79 and 80 at the Raleigh, Cary, Durham, Burlington, Greensboro, High Point, Salisbury, Kannapolis and Charlotte stations.
> 
> Reservations Required
> 
> Walk-up bicycle service is free of charge, but advance reservations are required. Make a reservation for your bike at the same time you are booking the rest of your travel here at Amtrak.com, at a Quik-Trak kiosk, by calling 1-800-USA-RAIL or by visiting an Amtrak ticket office.
> 
> You must have a travel document (ticket) for your bicycle and a baggage tag. Baggage tags can be obtained at the Amtrak ticket office. Passengers boarding at unstaffed stations can obtain a bike tag from the conductor.
> 
> Eligible Bicycles
> 
> Only standard size bikes will be permitted. Each passenger may bring one bicycle. Large seat/saddle bags must be removed from the bike. These items can be checked or carried on the train. Items removed from bikes will be counted as a checked or carry-on item.
> 
> Arrive Early
> 
> If you are checking a bicycle, you must arrive 30 minutes prior to your train's departure to allow sufficient time to obtain a ticket and baggage tag, and get the bike to the baggage car.
> 
> Loading Bicycles
> 
> You must be physically capable of lifting your bike up to a station employee standing on a baggage cart or to the train crew at the baggage car door. Once in the baggage car, Amtrak personnel will store and secure your bike in the bike racks. Passengers will not be permitted in the baggage car.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> BTW, as a reminder, the FY15 Five year financial plan released earlier this year said this about the Viewliner IIs: "Deliveries of additional cars began in the First Quarter of FY15, and the final unit will be delivered by the end of April 2016." Anyone want to take a bet that CAF will meet the April 2016 date?


We haven't seen the revised pilot cars for the diner, sleeper, or bag-dorm. Until those come back and are tested to Amtrak's satisfaction, they can't even start mass-producing them. So it's not looking likely, is it? If we see the pilot cars next week, then maybe CAF can make April 2016. If we don't see the pilot cars for another month...


----------



## TiBike

Thirdrail7 said:


> I'll just stick this here for now. Your new bags are working harder starting today:
> 
> Walk-Up Checked Bike Service on the Carolinian


The Carolinian is state-subsidised, isn't it? It looks like good news: at least they're using the Viewliner 2 bike racks, it seems. I guess we'll have to wait for full deployment before Amtrak starts accepting roll on bikes on long distance routes.


----------



## xyzzy

79/80 have allowed bikes within NC because the NCDOT coaches used on the Piedmonts (73/74/75/76) have had bike racks for many years. Boxing of checked bikes on 79/80 is no longer required.


----------



## orulz

I wonder if this might be a pilot program to work out kinks with the new equipment, with crews that are already familiar with handling bikes in the baggage cars.


----------



## TiBike

orulz said:


> I wonder if this might be a pilot program to work out kinks with the new equipment, with crews that are already familiar with handling bikes in the baggage cars.


I hope that's it. A smooth rollout would be great.


----------



## eblkheart

Last week leaving on the CZ, I saw a few of them in the Union Station Yard. Here are a couple of pics:


----------



## NE933

For God's sake, what the hell is taking so long with them


----------



## R30A

Nothing whatsoever is taking long. There were delays in the beginning. Since they started coming, things have gone FAST. I honestly cannot think of another order which has had delivery and acceptance into service progress as fast as the Viewliner IIs have in the past year.


----------



## George K

Can anyone comment on the changes that had to be made to the cars that were originally delivered? What was wrong with those cards?


----------



## NE933

R30A said:


> Nothing whatsoever is taking long. There were delays in the beginning. Since they started coming, things have gone FAST. I honestly cannot think of another order which has had delivery and acceptance into service progress as fast as the Viewliner IIs have in the past year.


I can: the ACS64.

The Viewliner II's have had this labored birth throughout. Batches were released, then sent to Hialeah for weeks, at some point they needed modifications. And no one at 60 Mass or CAF is saying something about when we can see the Diners and Sleepers. It is just and right that AU members and others are frustrated at the pace this is taking, not to mention, an expectation to call silence amongst those like me, who are unhappy about it.


----------



## R30A

ACS 64 took longer from final delivery to initial service than the Viewliners did. ACS 64s came in at a substantially slower rate after delivery started than that of the Viewliners, and ACS 64s have taken substantially longer to enter service after delivery than the Viewliners.

Not to cast any aspersions on the ACS 64 order- it has been quite impressive in its own right, and locomotives are undoubtedly much more complicated than baggage cars. That said, the rapid progress of the Viewliner order over the past year is practically unheard of in the modern era.


----------



## jis

There is a difference between a locomotive and a baggage car. The amount of time that it has taken CAF to produce the first deliverable baggage car is pretty appalling if you ask me.


----------



## R30A

I can not disagree with you there. (I have been very sure to specify that I am talking about the rate of progress since the first deliverable baggage car was in fact delivered.)


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> There is a difference between a locomotive and a baggage car. The amount of time that it has taken CAF to produce the first deliverable baggage car is pretty appalling if you ask me.





R30A said:


> I can not disagree with you there. (I have been very sure to specify that I am talking about the rate of progress since the first deliverable baggage car was in fact delivered.)


I'd rather them take their time and deliver them in a manner so when finally enter service, they aren't crapping out all over the railroad...like the aforementioned ACS-64s.


----------



## hastybob

Well, while you are talking about the timelyness of delivery - Another batch of baggage cars are supposed to be delivered the first of next week.

Probably only one more batch of baggage cars and they will be finished with those. Maybe other car types will come out soon after that.


----------



## tommylicious

has anyone seen a viewliner ii sleeper or diner?


----------



## MrFSS

tommylicious said:


> has anyone seen a viewliner ii sleeper or diner?


There is one dining car, *8400*.

Number of AU folk have had meals in it ion trips.

No sleepers, yet.


----------



## PRR 60

MrFSS said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> has anyone seen a viewliner ii sleeper or diner?
> 
> 
> 
> There is one dining car, *8400*.
> 
> Number of AU folk have had meals in it ion trips.
> 
> No sleepers, yet.
Click to expand...

Diner 8400 is a classified by Amtrak as a Viewliner I. It was gutted and refurbished by Beech Grove to serve as a functional prototype for the Viewliner II diners, but it is still a Viewliner I.


----------



## afigg

tommylicious said:


> has anyone seen a viewliner ii sleeper or diner?


How quickly people forget! It was a year ago now, but one set of Viewliner 2 sleeper, diner, and baggage-dorm cars were shipped from Elmira for testing last July. They were seen in the wild on test runs on the NEC, including 125+ mph passes, and then were shipped back to Elmira. Have not been seen outside of the CAF plant since then.

Youtube video of equipment move from Elmira: New Amtrak Viewliner II passenger cars on the move 7/8/2014. Still no word, not even a juicy rumor, on when the first units of the three other types will be sent out for another round of testing and inspection.


----------



## west point

Could it be that for accounting reasons that deliveries will be wither pushed to before September 30 or postponed to Oct 1 this year ?

Thinking of Capital expenses ( CAPEX ) on monthly reports


----------



## WoodyinNYC

hastybob said:


> … Another batch of baggage cars are supposed to be delivered the first of next week.
> 
> Probably only one more batch of baggage cars and they will be finished with those. Maybe other car types will come out soon after that.


Thanks for this update.

The last batch out was in May, two full months and a few weeks ago. Cutting it close for getting another batch delivered by the September 30 Fiscal Year end. But still will be very happy to see another batch next week.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

west point said:


> Could it be that for accounting reasons that deliveries will be wither pushed to before September 30 or postponed to Oct 1 this year ?
> 
> Thinking of Capital expenses ( CAPEX ) on monthly reports


The Viewliner order was for $300 million, when announced. The most recent budget said they'll cost $350 million.

So yes, I can easily imagine a couple of payments getting shoved into the next Fiscal Year. I know nothing, but that's my hunch.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> There is a difference between a locomotive and a baggage car. The amount of time that it has taken CAF to produce the first deliverable baggage car is pretty appalling if you ask me.


We know that CAF had a serious problem hiring competent stainless steel welders. We know that this delayed production by at *least* one year, maybe two years. As far as I can tell, this problem is sufficient to account for pretty much all the delays prior to the first accepted cars.


----------



## MikefromCrete

The long dragged-out process for this order doesn't speak well for CAF. These better be super-duper perfect cars when they finally get delivered.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

anyone notice: Amtrak is not frustrated, or upset about deliveries, just the rail buffs , an order this size gets changes due to design or due to customer request.

if its a design issue its cost CAF has to bear, but if its Amtrak modifications the cost will rise, hence the 350 million.


----------



## StriderGDM

People also seem to forget the plan was all along to get the baggage cars out and then work on the diners, sleepers and dorm cars.

The current fact that other than the test types of each car we're not seeing any others is in fact by design.

Amtrak needed the baggage cars the most and as a result got them first (and the most of them).

I believe we're already starting to see changes on the NEC in scheduling because of at least one train having all 125mph rated equipment because of the new baggage car.


----------



## jis

Past record would indeed support the hypothesis that all huge delays and cost overruns on most Amtrak projects are all actually by design


----------



## afigg

StriderGDM said:


> People also seem to forget the plan was all along to get the baggage cars out and then work on the diners, sleepers and dorm cars.


No, it was not. The plan several years ago, as stated in articles on the Viewliner II order, was to build the new cars on 2 simultaneous production lines: one the would build in sequence, the diner cars, the baggage-dorms and the sleepers and the second production line for the baggage cars. And, of course, to have delivered the cars by now. For reasons not publicly stated, that was changed, after the initial tests on the first sleeper, bag-dorm, diner units, to first build all the baggage cars, then the other 3 types. CAF was late and way behind schedule on delivering light rail cars to Houston which may have tied up their second production line for longer than originally expected, so that may have been a factor in changing the delivery order to one Viewliner II type at a time. Although we might see a delivery overlap on baggage cars and a test set of diners, depending on the production line backlog.


----------



## afigg

WoodyinNYC said:


> The Viewliner order was for $300 million, when announced. The most recent budget said they'll cost $350 million.
> 
> So yes, I can easily imagine a couple of payments getting shoved into the next Fiscal Year. I know nothing, but that's my hunch.


The FY15 budget states the total project cost at $342 million. The contract with CAF was announced as and stated for years as $298 million. There may well have been cost increases in the contract with CAF to cover Amtrak change orders. But the total project cost would also likely include the costs of training, testing, inspection, facility upgrades, contract oversight, equipment moves that would be in addition to the payments to CAF. I expect spare parts would be included in the CAF contract.
As for slipping the progress payments into next FY, Amtrak capital expenditures are running well under budget in the monthly reports. Delaying progress payments into FY16 may help with bookkeeping and cash flow this FY, but it sure does not look like Amtrak is going to get any real increase in federal funding in FY16.


----------



## neroden

afigg said:


> CAF was late and way behind schedule on delivering light rail cars to Houston which may have tied up their second production line for longer than originally expected, so that may have been a factor in changing the delivery order to one Viewliner II type at a time.


Extremely likely. It seems the welding problems affected the Houston order as well.


----------



## Agent

Second post here says AMTK 41 and 48 are being made ready to run from Albany to Elmira on Monday to pick up more baggage cars. I think this is what was hinted at before.


----------



## afigg

Agent said:


> Second post here says AMTK 41 and 48 are being made ready to run from Albany to Elmira on Monday to pick up more baggage cars. I think this is what was hinted at before.


That's good news. The question is how many baggage cars will be delivered in this batch? 48 baggage cars have been delivered, there are 22 to go.


----------



## Ryan

<irrational_foamer>Dining and Sleeping cars!!!</irrational_foamer>


----------



## Thirdrail7

afigg said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second post here says AMTK 41 and 48 are being made ready to run from Albany to Elmira on Monday to pick up more baggage cars. I think this is what was hinted at before.
> 
> 
> 
> That's good news. The question is how many baggage cars will be delivered in this batch? 48 baggage cars have been delivered, there are 22 to go.
Click to expand...

The 48 through the 57 are being picked up.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Get your camera ready Ryan. You know the "what" and "where." The when should be Wednesday and Thursday.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Get your camera ready Ryan. You know the "what" and "where." The when should be Wednesday and Thursday.


Alas, he may be out of town.


----------



## Ryan

I'm staring forlornly at the route of the Sunset East all week, waiting for a train that will never come.


----------



## TylerP42

According to an Amtrak lady who has had 40 years of repair work and yard work and was working in a glass house today, the Viewliner II baggage cars are extremely ineffective amd the way they were made leave a lot of unused space and inconviences. She says the company that made them made them to look nice, not be effective. She said that the old heritage baggage cars are better. (Not me talking, her)


----------



## Amtrak172

TylerP42 said:


> According to an Amtrak lady who has had 40 years of repair work and yard work and was working in a glass house today, the Viewliner II baggage cars are extremely ineffective amd the way they were made leave a lot of unused space and inconviences. She says the company that made them made them to look nice, not be effective. She said that the old heritage baggage cars are better. (Not me talking, her)


I miss those baggage cars.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

I was missing them before the Viewliner IIs even went into service.  I gotta get back into fanning again.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> I'm staring forlornly at the route of the Sunset East all week, waiting for a train that will never come.


You foamer..


----------



## Notelvis

Ryan said:


> I'm staring forlornly at the route of the Sunset East all week, waiting for a train that will never come.


I'm reminded of an old movie ('The Air Up There') in which Kevin Bacon plays an assistant college basketball coach who has traveled to Africa in hopes of recruiting his next 6'8" power forward.

He walks into a bus station trying to buy a ticket to the isolated village where the prospect lives. The ticket agent says "I am sorry, you have missed the last bus to Winnabee." Bacon asks "When did it leave?" The agent picks up a ratty official guide kind of timetable, blows the dust off of it, flips through a few pages and replies "1974."


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> I'm staring forlornly at the route of the Sunset East all week, waiting for a train that will never come.


"Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again!"


----------



## afigg

According to trainorders, 10 more baggage cars are on the move today from Elmira, numbers 61048 through 61057.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Thirdrail7 said:


> Get your camera ready Ryan. You know the "what" and "where." The when should be Wednesday and Thursday.


Do we expect these baggage cars to look any different?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get your camera ready Ryan. You know the "what" and "where." The when should be Wednesday and Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> Do we expect these baggage cars to look any different?
Click to expand...

Hopefully cleaner than the ones that have been in service for a while. :giggle:


----------



## ronkstevens

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get your camera ready Ryan. You know the "what" and "where." The when should be Wednesday and Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> Do we expect these baggage cars to look any different?
Click to expand...

They will have different numbers stuck on their sides


----------



## PerRock

Pictures of the new Viewliner II bags are on the Facebook NEC group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/653724898029779/permalink/868964186505848/







_Photo may not work for everyone._

peter


----------



## Thirdrail7

afigg said:


> According to trainorders, 10 more baggage cars are on the move today from Elmira, numbers 61048 through 61057.


Hmmm. According to a post here that was made in response to your inquiry, this was already covered:



Thirdrail7 said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second post here says AMTK 41 and 48 are being made ready to run from Albany to Elmira on Monday to pick up more baggage cars. I think this is what was hinted at before.
> 
> 
> 
> That's good news. The question is how many baggage cars will be delivered in this batch? 48 baggage cars have been delivered, there are 22 to go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The 48 through the 57 are being picked up.
Click to expand...

I guess reading isn't fundamental after all. I'll rejoin TO to answer any of your future questions though. :blink:



ronkstevens said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get your camera ready Ryan. You know the "what" and "where." The when should be Wednesday and Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> Do we expect these baggage cars to look any different?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They will have different numbers stuck on their sides
Click to expand...

Ryan has taken pictures of their 16 car move to Florida in the past. I was merely attempting to let them know when they would occur should he wish to do so this time.

Next time I'll just send a pm.

Geez.


----------



## Ryan

Thanks for the heads up, it s a shame I'm out of town to miss it.

One more delivery should finish the bags, no?


----------



## jis

So like the previous recent ones they will go down to Florida in groups of 5 tacked onto 97 or 91?


----------



## Train2104

Ryan said:


> Thanks for the heads up, it s a shame I'm out of town to miss it.
> 
> One more delivery should finish the bags, no?


I'm assuming they'll do one more of 10 then tack the 3 left onto whatever's next.


----------



## Chaz

In an Aug 11 thread at TrainOrders Amtrak LSA 'Boiling Man' ( a frequent poster there) shared gossip from someone he usually trusts to the effect that the diner order will be cancelled--as a way to deal w Congress' demand to cut F&B and in light of the Silver experience. He says it may be off base but ... just in case...

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3815460,page=1


----------



## Bob Dylan

I saw that post on trainorders too. As we know, OBS aren't always the most in the know people @ Amtrak! ( except for AU Members! )

This makes no sense since the Heritage Diners aree on their last legs, unless Amtrak is going to eliminate ALL Diners on the Single Level Cars!( very unlikely)

The New Diners are are urgently needed!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

TylerP42 said:


> According to an Amtrak lady who has had 40 years of repair work and yard work and was working in a glass house today, the Viewliner II baggage cars are extremely ineffective amd the way they were made leave a lot of unused space and inconviences. She says the company that made them made them to look nice, not be effective. She said that the old heritage baggage cars are better. (Not me talking, her)


It seems all the employees who have been around forever hate the new baggage cars, presumably because they just hate change. Are they perfect? Absolutely not, but the Heritage bags were even less perfect than the Viewliners. The Heritage bags leaked everywhere, doors didn't close properly, they didn't heat properly, so dimly lit you couldn't see properly, they bounced all over the place scattering stacks of bags, etc.

From my perspective, the biggest issue with the new cars is the stifling heat in summer. Unlike the incredibly leaky Heritage cars that let rain, snow and wind blow right through, these cars are sealed up tight and the roof ventilators don't do much (if anything).



jis said:


> So like the previous recent ones they will go down to Florida in groups of 5 tacked onto 97 or 91?


They'll probably move in groups of five on the back of 97 as before. Can't put them on the bottom of 91 because the train backs into Tampa which only fits about 11 or 12 cars on the platform.


----------



## Hal

jimhudson said:


> I saw that post on trainorders too. As we know, OBS aren't always the most in the know people @ Amtrak! ( except for AU Members! )
> 
> This makes no sense since the Heritage Diners aree on their last legs, unless Amtrak is going to eliminate ALL Diners on the Single Level Cars!( very unlikely)
> 
> The New Diners are are urgently needed!


Certainly none can't rely on a rumor heard by someone in OBS. It should be treated as a rumor. But that they would eliminate diners is possible.

Someone in that Trainorders thread thinks animals can be shipped in the new baggage cars because they have heat. Nooo. The heat is to 55 degrees and there is no AC in the summer. They get very hot. Hot, Hot, Hot!


----------



## jis

AmtrakLKL said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So like the previous recent ones they will go down to Florida in groups of 5 tacked onto 97 or 91?
> 
> 
> 
> They'll probably move in groups of five on the back of 97 as before. Can't put them on the bottom of 91 because the train backs into Tampa which only fits about 11 or 12 cars on the platform.
Click to expand...

Good point about 91. Also apparently 91 is now going with single P42 too?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

jis said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So like the previous recent ones they will go down to Florida in groups of 5 tacked onto 97 or 91?
> 
> 
> 
> They'll probably move in groups of five on the back of 97 as before. Can't put them on the bottom of 91 because the train backs into Tampa which only fits about 11 or 12 cars on the platform.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good point about 91. Also apparently 91 is now going with single P42 too?
Click to expand...

There were the single locomotive days during the Gunn administration. The cost savings to running a single engine is tremendous both in fuel, wear-n-tear and increasing unit availability. If you have a reliable, well maintained fleet the primary downside is no back up when the lead unit is no longer able to lead account tree or vehicle strike. Running times are calculated with one engine and 12 cars, so schedules shouldn't be affected.

I don't know about any current effort to revert to a single locomotive, though.


----------



## jis

Yes indeed, the savings are huge. Indeed in rest of the world very often trains are assigned a single loco.

In India for example, almost everything, including very prestigious trains run with single locos and upto 24 cars (indian cars are somewhat shorter - 75', and somewhat lighter), and they generally seem to operate pretty reliably on the whole. However, they have an advantage of having a very dense network, which means that in case of failure a replacement is more readily available close by. But then again, because there is a huge competition among loco sheds about the quality of the locos that they own, it is a matter of shame when a loco from a particular shed fails in service. On IR the owning loco shed is very clearly identified on each loco either with a distinctive livery or where that is not allowed (e.g. the WAP 5 and 6 class electrics) the loco shed name appears emblazoned on the front of the locomotive.

But the bottom line is, that most of the passenger service runs using single loco for each train. There are only a few exceptions here and there.


----------



## rrdude

jis said:


> Yes indeed, the savings are huge. Indeed in rest of the world very often trains are assigned a single loco.
> 
> In India for example, almost everything, including very prestigious trains run with single locos and upto 24 cars (indian cars are somewhat shorter - 75', and somewhat lighter), and they generally seem to operate pretty reliably on the whole. However, they have an advantage of having a very dense network, which means that in case of failure a replacement is more readily available close by. But then again, because there is a huge competition among loco sheds about the quality of the locos that they own, it is a matter of shame when a loco from a particular shed fails in service. On IR the owning loco shed is very clearly identified on each loco either with a distinctive livery or where that is not allowed (e.g. the WAP 5 and 6 class electrics) the loco shed name appears emblazoned on the front of the locomotive.
> 
> But the bottom line is, that most of the passenger service runs using single loco for each train. There are only a few exceptions here and there.


This is key though, "........they have an advantage of having a very dense network, which means that in case of failure a replacement is more readily available close by...." That simply doesn't exist here in the USA, outside of just a few corridors. I mean, even in Michigan, it could take hours to get a replacement loco.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakLKL said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to an Amtrak lady who has had 40 years of repair work and yard work and was working in a glass house today, the Viewliner II baggage cars are extremely ineffective amd the way they were made leave a lot of unused space and inconviences. She says the company that made them made them to look nice, not be effective. She said that the old heritage baggage cars are better. (Not me talking, her)
> 
> 
> 
> It seems all the employees who have been around forever hate the new baggage cars, presumably because they just hate change. Are they perfect? Absolutely not, but the Heritage bags were even less perfect than the Viewliners. The Heritage bags leaked everywhere, doors didn't close properly, they didn't heat properly, so dimly lit you couldn't see properly, they bounced all over the place scattering stacks of bags, etc.
> 
> From my perspective, the biggest issue with the new cars is the stifling heat in summer. Unlike the incredibly leaky Heritage cars that let rain, snow and wind blow right through, these cars are sealed up tight and the roof ventilators don't do much (if anything).
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So like the previous recent ones they will go down to Florida in groups of 5 tacked onto 97 or 91?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They'll probably move in groups of five on the back of 97 as before. Can't put them on the bottom of 91 because the train backs into Tampa which only fits about 11 or 12 cars on the platform.
Click to expand...

It has less to do with being against change and more to do with wanting something to change for the better. If you think the cars that were delivered prior to the multitudes of mods (that are STILL ongoing) are better just because they currently close better because they haven't aged, well some people have higher expectations, particularly for what they cost. Which raises another point that I bring up. Sure, they're shiny, new but does anyone see them lasting 50 to 60 years?

There is a lot more going on with these cars that luggage racks and paint jobs. Eventually, one day after the last mods are made, we'll all be free to discuss the under the radar trial and tribulations of this equipment..and we'll have a nice laugh...or something like that.



AmtrakLKL said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> So like the previous recent ones they will go down to Florida in groups of 5 tacked onto 97 or 91?
> 
> 
> 
> They'll probably move in groups of five on the back of 97 as before. Can't put them on the bottom of 91 because the train backs into Tampa which only fits about 11 or 12 cars on the platform.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good point about 91. Also apparently 91 is now going with single P42 too?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There were the single locomotive days during the Gunn administration. The cost savings to running a single engine is tremendous both in fuel, wear-n-tear and increasing unit availability. If you have a reliable, well maintained fleet the primary downside is no back up when the lead unit is no longer able to lead account tree or vehicle strike. Running times are calculated with one engine and 12 cars, so schedules shouldn't be affected.
> 
> I don't know about any current effort to revert to a single locomotive, though.
Click to expand...

Look deeper, AmtrakLKL. h34r:


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Chaz said:


> In an Aug 11 thread at TrainOrders Amtrak LSA 'Boiling Man' ( a frequent poster there) shared gossip from someone he usually trusts to the effect that the diner order will be cancelled--as a way to deal w Congress' demand to cut F&B and in light of the Silver experience. He says it may be off base but ... just in case...
> 
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3815460,page=1


Seems quite early in the _Silver Star _experiment to be divining the results. And I'd like to see an actual experiment with an additional sleeper per diner over the current count, on at least one route, to see if the batter ratio would spread the diner costs over enuff additional passengers to get to break-even.

But maybe Amtrak has crunched their numbers over and over again and just can't make them work. Perhaps Amtrak has decided to end diner service on the Eastern LD trains. Boardman's promise to Mica to end food & beverage losses got written into law, after all.

Now following these gloomy discussions, I'm starting to wonder. If Amtrak cancels all or part of the diner order, how much will it cost to modify a not-quite-finished diner into a sleeper? Or some other kind of food service car?

I'm assuming that another 25 sleepers (or with some number of bag/dorms, cafe cars, etc), above and beyond the 25 sleepers remaining in this order, would be filled, sans diners.


----------



## jis

rrdude said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeed, the savings are huge. Indeed in rest of the world very often trains are assigned a single loco.
> 
> In India for example, almost everything, including very prestigious trains run with single locos and upto 24 cars (indian cars are somewhat shorter - 75', and somewhat lighter), and they generally seem to operate pretty reliably on the whole. However, they have an advantage of having a very dense network, which means that in case of failure a replacement is more readily available close by. But then again, because there is a huge competition among loco sheds about the quality of the locos that they own, it is a matter of shame when a loco from a particular shed fails in service. On IR the owning loco shed is very clearly identified on each loco either with a distinctive livery or where that is not allowed (e.g. the WAP 5 and 6 class electrics) the loco shed name appears emblazoned on the front of the locomotive.
> 
> But the bottom line is, that most of the passenger service runs using single loco for each train. There are only a few exceptions here and there.
> 
> 
> 
> This is key though, "........they have an advantage of having a very dense network, which means that in case of failure a replacement is more readily available close by...." That simply doesn't exist here in the USA, outside of just a few corridors. I mean, even in Michigan, it could take hours to get a replacement loco.
Click to expand...

Yeah. That's why I mentioned it. There are two factors working against Amtrak here.... one is the consistent underfunding which possibly leads to less than ideal level of maintenance leading to higher than is possible under the best circumstances, failure rates, and the second is lack of a dense network and consequent lack of availability of ready replacements should a failure occur en route. Of course the intense competition between loco sheds (and associated pride in performance) as occurs in India is also not feasible with a non-dense network. Instead allegedly here each maintenance center simply pushes things off to the other center hoping that nothing bad happens in between.

BTW, at the present time I think the business about canceling the Diners is just an idle rumor with little basis in any underlying fact. But I am sure we will know for sure with the passage of time, won't we?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Thirdrail7 said:


> Look deeper, AmtrakLKL. h34r:


How about I just look at today. 91 and 92 both running with a single motor. How about that?!


----------



## neroden

WoodyinNYC said:


> Chaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> In an Aug 11 thread at TrainOrders Amtrak LSA 'Boiling Man' ( a frequent poster there) shared gossip from someone he usually trusts to the effect that the diner order will be cancelled--as a way to deal w Congress' demand to cut F&B and in light of the Silver experience. He says it may be off base but ... just in case...
> 
> http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3815460,page=1
> 
> 
> 
> Seems quite early in the _Silver Star _experiment to be divining the results.
Click to expand...

Though so far the results are very clearly "financial disaster".


> And I'd like to see an actual experiment with an additional sleeper per diner over the current count, on at least one route, to see if the batter ratio would spread the diner costs over enuff additional passengers to get to break-even.


Yep. My calculations say that they would get to break-even on the Meteor and the LSL, with some minor changes in service patterns (gotta serve more hours per day on the LSL, for example). A daily Cardinal could come close enough, though a non-daily train is hopeless. I don't see a way to do it on the Crescent unless demand can be added south of Atlanta.



> But maybe Amtrak has crunched their numbers over and over again and just can't make them work.


I doubt that, given Amtrak's proven inability to crunch numbers. :sigh:


> Perhaps Amtrak has decided to end diner service on the Eastern LD trains. Boardman's promise to Mica to end food & beverage losses got written into law, after all.


If so, completely idiotic. Brain-damaged. They did it before and lost 13% of their ridership; they're already losing more than that on the Star... and they don't have anything approximating suitable cafe service to substitute. *They would have to order new cafe cars for immediate delivery*.



> Now following these gloomy discussions, I'm starting to wonder. If Amtrak cancels all or part of the diner order, how much will it cost to modify a not-quite-finished diner into a sleeper? Or some other kind of food service car?


They'd have to be replaced with revised cafe cars, with *much, much more food storage space* and, frankly, a grill. I don't know how long the design work would take. A "cafe-grill" design is the minimum plausible design to supply the huge loads of passengers on the Lake Shore Limited.


----------



## Amtrak172

I read on 4RR that Amtrak may actually be canceling the order of the diners and the other cars. Is this true?


----------



## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> I read on 4RR that Amtrak may actually be canceling the order of the diners and the other cars. Is this true?


Afterall you did read it on the internet so it must be true, no? 

Well as far as we know it is just a creative rumor at present. Only time will tell whether it is true or not. but my guess at present is that it is not true..


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

I could never believe that even if Amtrak's needs changed, they would cancel the diners. It isn't like Congress would let Amtrak divert that money to something else on their own volition. Amtrak would simply accept Congress's "gift" of the diners, and park them somewhere.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I could never believe that even if Amtrak's needs changed, they would cancel the diners. It isn't like Congress would let Amtrak divert that money to something else on their own volition. Amtrak would simply accept Congress's "gift" of the diners, and park them somewhere.


Since Congress never appropriated any money specifically for this order, I don't think they have much of a say in this matter.


----------



## StriderGDM

Until I hear it from a more reliable source, I'm highly disinclined to believe this. The only way it would work is if

a) they removed diners from existing trains

b) upgraded the trucks on existing sleepers to 125mph operation.

One of the smaller, but still important goals, of the Viewliner II order was to permit LD trains to run at the same speed as regionals on the NEC. This makes scheduling and planning a lot easier.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jis said:


> Since Congress never appropriated any money specifically for this order, I don't think they have much of a say in this matter.


Oh, I thought this was part of some recession stimulus bill.


----------



## keelhauled

I think they were financed by an RRIF loan. Or maybe that was the ACS-64s. In any case it wasn't s specific appropriation.


----------



## jis

AFAIR, the ACS-64 order is based on an RRIF loan, while the VL II order is entirely internally financed from revenue growth.

It is the midwest bi-level and locomotive orders thata re paid for out of ARRA or HSIPR or som e such. I am sure afigg can fill in the gory details on which of those is funded from where.

Congress has strongly suggested to Amtrak that any rolling stock order henceforth should be financed through RRIF or market loans. Hence the plan to use RRIF for Acela IIs.


----------



## R30A

The 4rr website tends to be universally incorrect when it comes to anything besides which locomotives are where. (And I will say that it does a VERY good job of that. Just don't expect much else out of it.)


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

The Empire Builder arrived in Chicago on Wednesday and Thursday with only a single new Viewliner 2 baggage car in the consist coupled right behind the locomotives. The Wednesday train also had a former CB&Q Budd dome observation car on the rear end. I didn't see Friday's train.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 61002 was on the end of Amtrak #5(20) when it arrived in Emeryville, California on Saturday. It wasn't on the _Zephyr_ when it left Chicago. I believe this is the car that was in Denver for a while.


----------



## andersone

so much for the train window fans


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

andersone said:


> so much for the train window fans


Actually a single level car at the end of a Superliner does not totally block the railfan window; it still offers an excellent view, more like looking out of the back of a traditional Dome Car.


----------



## PerRock

OlympianHiawatha said:


> andersone said:
> 
> 
> 
> so much for the train window fans
> 
> 
> 
> Actually a single level car at the end of a Superliner does not totally block the railfan window; it still offers an excellent view, more like looking out of the back of a traditional Dome Car.
Click to expand...

... unless the end car is a Transition Sleeper ;P

peter


----------



## 46Dover

They better not cancel the Diners. And the other thing I'm looking at is why is Amtrak ordering extra Sleepers when the only thing they'll be used for is Summertime work and all the long distance trains are (for lack of a better term) bastardized in the wintertime.

I really want all this to work, don't get me wrong....


----------



## VentureForth

R30A said:


> The 4rr website tends to be universally incorrect when it comes to anything besides which locomotives are where. (And I will say that it does a VERY good job of that. Just don't expect much else out of it.)


If you go back one page, you'll see on post #2167 of this thread that the rumor originated from an LSA on Train Orders.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

The rumor is just that, a rumor, canceling the order would cost Amtrak more at this point than accepting cars.

as a lot of car shells are completed and fitting out is in progress, canceling the contract would be financially devastating, and could cost more than actual order. just ask Wisconsin and the Talgo fiasco.

but so far, no one at Amtrak or CAF is panicking other than railbuffs.


----------



## west point

46Dover. There is a misconception about not just sleepers but all cars and locos. Study the monthly performance reports You will find that heavy overhauls on much fewer cars happen during high traffic times. At low traffic times lighter repairs are spread over many more cars. Heavy overhauls require many more craftsmen per car. That way the most cars can be assigned to high traffic times.

Another item is no one can really predict the ultimate sleeper demand. Even the eastern step child Cardinal is selling out a second sleeper that was not expected from many including this poster.

As well it could be that Amtrak will change the Capitol to single level cars to free up superliners for western trains. That could swallow up 6 sleepers.


----------



## neroden

Single-level sleepers make money. More than the coaches on the LSL, a bit less on the Cardinal, less than the coaches on the Silvers and Crescent (the coaches on the LSL probably don't turn over more than once per trip, the coaches on the Cardinal probably more often, and the coaches on the Silvers & Crescent probably turn over the most often). Anyway, the sleepers are catering to a different audience than the coaches (they're not substitutes, they're complements). Nobody's really sure how high demand for them is. I can't imagine that Amtrak would ever cancel that order.

The dining car situation is more worrisome, because it's been hard for Amtrak to pin down how much it increases revenue by. I personally don't think that cafe cars are sufficient to maintain high-ticket-price ridership on routes as long as the LSL, Cardinal, Silvers, or Crescent. But Amtrak has made Really Stupid Decisions with food service in the past, so... who knows.


----------



## tricia

Now that we're at page 110 of this thread.... Would someone who's been following this closely care to state a current ETA (or range of likely delivery times) for the new Viewliner diners and sleepers?


----------



## jis

Unless someone like Thirdrail has some inside info, I suspect that we remain as clueless as ever.


----------



## Bob Dylan

No-one outside of the factory really knows, it's all speculation. Even then, once the units start coming out for testing and training, there can be delays due to needed fixes and modifications.

If a much more basic design like a baggage car takes so long to get into service, imagine how long a Diner will take and even longer for a Sleeper!

I'd guesstimate that we will start seeing the Diners show up after the First of the year and then the Bag Dorms by Summer with the Sleeping Cars by Fall!

Always expect contracts like this to double the delivery time promised and of course be way over budget!

Also with the current Amtrak Management cluelesness, and the ongoing bean counter cuts continuing, the answer is Blowing in the Wind!


----------



## PVD

Be curious as to how many of the sleeping car modules that RailPlan is building for the cars have been shipped. They are also doing the galleys for the dining cars. If they have been building and shipping to Elmira, and the sections are waiting to be installed, there is no realistic turning back. They are the largest sub contractor for the project, but really don't have any recent news about the project, just stuff that's been posted for a while.


----------



## afigg

jimhudson said:


> No-one outside of the factory really knows, it's all speculation. Even then, once the units start coming out for testing and training, there can be delays due to needed fixes and modifications.
> 
> If a much more basic design like a baggage car takes so long to get into service, imagine how long a Diner will take and even longer for a Sleeper!
> 
> I'd guesstimate that we will start seeing the Diners show up after the First of the year and then the Bag Dorms by Summer with the Sleeping Cars by Fall!


Hopefully Amtrak management has some knowledge about when the diner, sleeper, and bag-dorm cars will show up. As for the schedule, remember that a pilot test diner, sleeper, bag-dorm set was out the wild in 2014 for testing on the NEC and at the maintenance facilities. So the other 3 types underwent their first round of testing and evaluation before going back to Elmira, presumably with a list of change orders and mods. Whenever the first of the new diner cars show up again in public, it will be for the second round of testing.

The Amtrak FY15 budget and Five Year plan released in February stated the schedule was to have all 130 cars delivered by April 2016. Of course, the schedule may have slipped since then, but CAF has delivered 58 baggage cars which means they are close to 1/2 way point in delivering completed cars.


----------



## dlagrua

Now that Amtrak management is taking a parsimonious approach to food service, we must wonder what they are going to do with the new Viewliner diners or how they will use them? Perhaps they will lease them to Mc Donalds and sleeper passengers that contibute the highest revenue to Amtrak, will be rewarded with cheap, greasy chemical laden unhealthy foods...... and the dining cars will still be unprofitable. A better approach would be to lease them to Iowa Pacific as they are serving the best food on the rails right now. In all seriousness what is the real food service plan????


----------



## AmtrakLKL

This will probably change given how the order has progressed so far, but here is a fairly recent proposed delivery schedule from CAF:

Bag Cars - last delivery scheduled for November 2015
Dining Cars - 25 delivered between February and July 2016
Bag/Dorms - 10 delivered between May and December 2016

Sleepers - 25 delivered between August 2016 and March 2017


----------



## StriderGDM

Shame it'll be so long for the dining cars, but it is what it is I suppose.


----------



## jis

All this may have to some extent to do with Amtrak's cash management as with CAF's ability to manufacture and deliver.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> This will probably change given how the order has progressed so far, but here is a fairly recent proposed delivery schedule from CAF:
> 
> Bag Cars - last delivery scheduled for November 2015
> 
> Dining Cars - 25 delivered between February and July 2016
> 
> Bag/Dorms - 10 delivered between May and December 2016
> 
> Sleepers - 25 delivered between August 2016 and March 2017


Thanks.

And Oof. I guess there have been a lot of mods to the other three types. Here's hoping we see the second round of prototypes soon; the schedule will be determined by when the prototypes are satisfactory to Amtrak. The real benefits will only start to be visible when the Heritage cars are retired, which on this schedule won't be until August 2016.

This does mean that the window for extra sleepers to be bought is long, as late as late 2016.


----------



## Agent

So, in case anyone following this thread didn't notice, Amtrak #6(08) was the first _California Zephyr_ to run with a Viewliner II baggage car in revenue service. Apparently, this was an impromptu substitution. More to this story on this thread.

Also, the person that filmed the Fraser, Colorado video on that thread said they hope Amtrak begins advertising the Viewliners' bicycle capabilities out there since Winter Park is the mountain bike capital.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

So Amtrak is reviving a gaudy 1970's style paint scheme on some 1980's style Viewliners?

Might as well tell me that Ronnie Raygun was reanimated as the lead singer for a new disco band.


----------



## mfastx

I just don't understand the paint scheme. It looks terrible alongside cars with the current scheme.


----------



## west point

Question for someone who has looked carefully at the inside of a car. You will notice that the side doors are not symmetrical on the car. At one end the door is over the car trucks and other end is just toward center of car instead over the truck.

1. Are the doors at the same location on both sides of car ?

2. Which end is the brake ("B") end ?

3. How is the interior of each end different ?

4. Could this layout give a hint of how bag - dorms will be designed ?


----------



## jis

Why does one need any hints about how a bag dorm will be designed. Haven't we already seen one example running around the system in the first round of tests already?


----------



## TylerP42

I was told once I could look into the baggage car (as my sleeper was next to it) but I was not allowed to take pictures.


----------



## jis

Agent said:


> So, in case anyone following this thread didn't notice, Amtrak #6(08) was the first _California Zephyr_ to run with a Viewliner II baggage car in revenue service. Apparently, this was an impromptu substitution. More to this story on this thread.
> 
> Also, the person that filmed the Fraser, Colorado video on that thread said they hope Amtrak begins advertising the Viewliners' bicycle capabilities out there since Winter Park is the mountain bike capital.


Oh wow! Finally #5/#6 got them! #7/#8 have had them for many weeks now.


----------



## StanJazz

In answer to west points question if the doors on each side are in the same location. They are in the same spot on 1 end at least. Picture from Chicago Train Day.


----------



## Amtrak172

mfastx said:


> I just don't understand the paint scheme. It looks terrible alongside cars with the current scheme.


Thank you! These cars would look so much better in phase IVb


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, in case anyone following this thread didn't notice, Amtrak #6(08) was the first _California Zephyr_ to run with a Viewliner II baggage car in revenue service. Apparently, this was an impromptu substitution. More to this story on this thread.
> 
> Also, the person that filmed the Fraser, Colorado video on that thread said they hope Amtrak begins advertising the Viewliners' bicycle capabilities out there since Winter Park is the mountain bike capital.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow! Finally #5/#6 got them! #7/#8 have had them for many weeks now.
Click to expand...

This was a last minute decision because the regular baggage car was bad-ordered.


----------



## PerRock

west point said:


> Question for someone who has looked carefully at the inside of a car. You will notice that the side doors are not symmetrical on the car. At one end the door is over the car trucks and other end is just toward center of car instead over the truck.
> 
> 1. Are the doors at the same location on both sides of car ?
> 
> 2. Which end is the brake ("B") end ?
> 
> 3. How is the interior of each end different ?
> 
> 4. Could this layout give a hint of how bag - dorms will be designed ?


Does this help in giving you a hint as to what a the Baggage Dorm will look like? Found with an _extremely _simple google search: http://www.railpictures.net/images/d2/4/0/4/2404.1405065010.jpg

peter


----------



## Ryan

mfastx said:


> I just don't understand the paint scheme. It looks terrible alongside cars with the current scheme.


They're going into the same scheme.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

west point said:


> Question for someone who has looked carefully at the inside of a car. You will notice that the side doors are not symmetrical on the car. At one end the door is over the car trucks and other end is just toward center of car instead over the truck.
> 
> 1. Are the doors at the same location on both sides of car ?
> 
> 2. Which end is the brake ("B") end ?
> 
> 3. How is the interior of each end different ?
> 
> 4. Could this layout give a hint of how bag - dorms will be designed ?


The end with the door above the truck is the A end. The interior space on the A end goes all the way to the end wall. The B end has the electrical locker in one corner and gun locker in the other corner. A dividing wall on each side separates the two lockers from the rest of the car. The baggage space from the B end doors to those walls is the same as the space from the doors to the end wall on the A end, if that makes sense.


----------



## afigg

AmtrakLKL said:


> This will probably change given how the order has progressed so far, but here is a fairly recent proposed delivery schedule from CAF:
> 
> Bag Cars - last delivery scheduled for November 2015
> 
> Dining Cars - 25 delivered between February and July 2016
> 
> Bag/Dorms - 10 delivered between May and December 2016
> 
> Sleepers - 25 delivered between August 2016 and March 2017


Thanks for posting this, but I hope CAF is not _that_ far behind schedule. They have delivered 58 baggage cars with 12 more to go. Even if the last 12 baggage cars get delivered in November, stretching the delivery of the diner cars into next July and the sleepers into 2017 is a huge schedule slip from the all 130 cars by April 2016 2017 in the FY15 budget and 5 year plan published as recently as February. If the last sleeper does indeed shipped in March 2017, that is, what, 3? years behind the original contract schedule. Not good.

Edit: fixed typo.


----------



## Ryan

???

I must be misreading you, because March 2017 isn't a slip from April 2017, it's a month earlier.


----------



## west point

KL Does make sense.. thanks for the info. Bag - dorms door over car truck. That might indicate no gun locker ?


----------



## PVD

Don't know if this helps, but maybe.....


----------



## jis

west point said:


> KL Does make sense.. thanks for the info. Bag - dorms door over car truck. That might indicate no gun locker ?


Or gun locker at the dorm end. Hard to tell.


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> mfastx said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't understand the paint scheme. It looks terrible alongside cars with the current scheme.
> 
> 
> 
> They're going into the same scheme.
Click to expand...

Wait, what do you mean?


----------



## Ryan

All of the single level LD equipment is going into that paint scheme.


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> All of the single level LD equipment is going into that paint scheme.


So, the current Viewliners, and the Amfleet II's will be in Phase III? An Amfleet II coach was just recently overhauled a few days ago. I saw it in D.C.. It was painted in Phase IVb. What about the Superliners and Amfleet I's. Oh, what about the new Siemens diesels?


----------



## Ryan

We covered this over a year ago:



Amtrak172 said:


> Any information on what paint scheme Amtrak decided to go with for the Viewliner II's?





Ryan said:


> Yes: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/57231-amtrak-america-new-ld-train-branding/


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> We covered this over a year ago:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any information on what paint scheme Amtrak decided to go with for the Viewliner II's?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/57231-amtrak-america-new-ld-train-branding/
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Thanks but...the link isn't loading. Can you please just tell me what paint scheme the Amfleet I's will get?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Try this link.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/57231-amtrak-america-new-ld-train-branding/&do=findComment&comment=478941


----------



## Amtrak172

Ok look, can you please just tell me?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

> *Amtrak America will utilize our Phase Three striping on the single-level long distance cars as a tribute to our heritage.*


----------



## Amtrak172

So the Amfleet I's will be painted in Phase III too?


----------



## jebr

Personal attacks are not allowed here under any circumstances. Please keep it civil.


----------



## Ryan

Are Amfleet I's "single-level long distance cars"?


----------



## Amtrak172

I think it would be a good idea to have a pool of the new baggage cars in phase IVb for the Superliner trains. Since the Superliners are staying in IVb, they should have some of be new baggage cars in IVb for those trains so that the paint matches.


----------



## Hal

Amtrak172 said:


> I think it would be a good idea to have a pool of the new baggage cars in phase IVb for the Superliner trains. Since the Superliners are staying in IVb, they should have some of be new baggage cars in IVb for those trains so that the paint matches.


So important that the paint matches....... :blink:

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jis

Nobody in their right mind should go about creating sub fleets of a relatively small fleet of cars merely to satisfy the aesthetic needs of a few railfans. Just IMHO.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Its good that Amtrak 172 wasn't around pre-D-Day and during the Rainbow Train consists during Amtrak's early days!

Also during the '70s and '80s with "designer" uniforms for the Crews and "Disco" interiors on the trains! Wonder if he's seen the Anniversary Train or the U-Tube Videos?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Amtrak172 said:


> I think it would be a good idea to have a pool of the new baggage cars in phase IVb for the Superliner trains. Since the Superliners are staying in IVb, they should have some of be new baggage cars in IVb for those trains so that the paint matches.


The baggage car home base is Hialeah, so it is more likely to match an eastern fleet make up.


----------



## Amtrak172

Thirdrail7 said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be a good idea to have a pool of the new baggage cars in phase IVb for the Superliner trains. Since the Superliners are staying in IVb, they should have some of be new baggage cars in IVb for those trains so that the paint matches.
> 
> 
> 
> The baggage car home base is Hialeah, so it is more likely to match an eastern fleet make up.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Oh, anyone know what paint scheme the new diesels will be in?


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak hasn't ordered any of them yet, so it'll be up to the states that paid for them.


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> Amtrak hasn't ordered any of them yet, so it'll be up to the states that paid for them.


Thank you. I hope they're in Phase V or something modern.


----------



## TylerP42

jis said:


> Nobody in their right mind should go about creating sub fleets of a relatively small fleet of cars merely to satisfy the aesthetic needs of a few railfans. Just IMHO.


"Like"


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak172 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak hasn't ordered any of them yet, so it'll be up to the states that paid for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I hope they're in Phase V or something modern.
Click to expand...

It's a safe bet the CA ones will look like this:


----------



## Devil's Advocate

TylerP42 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody in their right mind should go about creating sub fleets of a relatively small fleet of cars merely to satisfy the aesthetic needs of a few railfans. Just IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> "Like"
Click to expand...

Who in their right mind suggested that the Eastern and Western fleets would benefit from different paint schemes in the first place? Whoever thought up this loud and gaudy Uncle Sam style redux is the one who should be explaining themselves. Might as well bring back the pointless arrow with its head up its rear. All these decades it took to drain the last bit of garishness out of the paint scheme and then here it comes back again.


----------



## Amtrak172

Ryan said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak hasn't ordered any of them yet, so it'll be up to the states that paid for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I hope they're in Phase V or something modern.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a safe bet the CA ones will look like this:
Click to expand...

I don't mind that actually. That's a nice scheme for the Amtrak California trains. I think it's safe to say that the regular revenue Amtrak ones will be in Phase V. I mean Amtrak chose to paint the ACS-64's in V. Although those are part of the Northeast Regional.


----------



## Amtrak172

Devil's Advocate said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody in their right mind should go about creating sub fleets of a relatively small fleet of cars merely to satisfy the aesthetic needs of a few railfans. Just IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> "Like"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who in their right mind suggested that the Eastern and Western fleets would benefit from different paint schemes in the first place? Whoever thought up this loud and gaudy Uncle Sam style redux is the one who should be explaining themselves. Might as well bring back the pointless arrow with its head up its rear. All these decades it took to drain the last bit of garishness out of the paint scheme and then here it comes back again.
Click to expand...

True that!


----------



## Agent

For the record Amtrak #5(11) is the first #5 to have a Viewliner II baggage car in revenue service with AMTK 61002 going back west again. Also, the _California Zephyr_ consist has dropped down to two coaches and two sleepers.


----------



## keelhauled

Amtrak172 said:


> I don't mind that actually. That's a nice scheme for the Amtrak California trains. I think it's safe to say that the regular revenue Amtrak ones will be in Phase V. I mean Amtrak chose to paint the ACS-64's in V. Although those are part of the Northeast Regional.


Yeah but Amtrak paid for the ACS-64s. No reason why the states can't paint their locomotives in another scheme. All Amtrak is going to do is drive them.


----------



## keelhauled

Devil's Advocate said:


> Who in their right mind suggested that the Eastern and Western fleets would benefit from different paint schemes in the first place? Whoever thought up this loud and gaudy Uncle Sam style redux is the one who should be explaining themselves. Might as well bring back the pointless arrow with its head up its rear. All these decades it took to drain the last bit of garishness out of the paint scheme and then here it comes back again.


Yeah but they're going to brand the long distance trains as "Amtrak America" now. This way, anyone who votes against them will clearly be marked as being against America and the red, white, and blue. It's brilliantly cynical.


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak172 said:


> I think it's safe to say that the regular revenue Amtrak ones will be in Phase V. I mean Amtrak chose to paint the ACS-64's in V. Although those are part of the Northeast Regional.


There aren't yet any Amtrak regular ones, they haven't ordered any.


----------



## Paulus

Ryan said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak hasn't ordered any of them yet, so it'll be up to the states that paid for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I hope they're in Phase V or something modern.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a safe bet the CA ones will look like this:
Click to expand...

Not all. Some will look like this instead:


----------



## oldtimer

Having been a survivor of Amtrak's rainbow days it does not matter what paint scheme the Viewliner II's are. It matters more on how they work. I do not like what I have seen so far. The skirting on the lower edge of the car body will just retain more snow and ice and make it harder to get to components that that are under car and it will further delay turn around service at points like Chicago and Sunnyside. In order to properly inspect the trucks, brakes, brake rigging in must be visible and not frozen in an iceberg. If it is below zero out it will take many hours for that mass of metal to get warm enough in the Service & Inspection building to do a proper job.

It also appears that the 480 Volt cables are run under the car where they are vulnerable to strike damage. This is one of the major causes of cars being "Bad Ordered" in the snow belt winters. The Viewliner I's had the cables run in a wire loom on top of the car and most of the electricians in Chicago thought that was a great idea.

That is just my dos centavos!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

oldtimer said:


> Having been a survivor of Amtrak's rainbow days it does not matter what paint scheme the Viewliner II's are. It matters more on how they work. I do not like what I have seen so far. The skirting on the lower edge of the car body will just retain more snow and ice and make it harder to get to components that that are under car and it will further delay turn around service at points like Chicago and Sunnyside. In order to properly inspect the trucks, brakes, brake rigging in must be visible and not frozen in an iceberg. If it is below zero out it will take many hours for that mass of metal to get warm enough in the Service & Inspection building to do a proper job.
> 
> It also appears that the 480 Volt cables are run under the car where they are vulnerable to strike damage. This is one of the major causes of cars being "Bad Ordered" in the snow belt winters. The Viewliner I's had the cables run in a wire loom on top of the car and most of the electricians in Chicago thought that was a great idea.
> 
> That is just my dos centavos!


The underside of the new baggage cars is fully enclosed, and I believe the remainder of the fleet will be the same. What you see as a skirt is actually a rather heavy door that swings up to allow access under the car. When it drops down it seals shut to keep out the elements such as ice and snow. I've got a picture somewhere. When I find it I'll post the photo.


----------



## jis

According to a report from Elmira Heights NY, while everyone was busy remembering 9/11 a short train pulled out of the CAF plant with the following consist:

[SIZE=10.5pt]P42 79, Diner 68000 ALBANY, Sleeper 62500 PORTAGE RIVER, Bag-Dorm 69000, Cafe 48154 and GP38-3 520[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Apparently it was headed to Albany. I wonder what came of the equipment move, since I have not seen any further reports on it anywhere else.[/SIZE]


----------



## Bob Dylan

Hmmm, Stealth equipment testing and moves, but if they do it on the NEC, the videos and posts will be all over the net!

Maybe they are speeding up the delivery and testing, and perhaps we'll see some Viewliner Bag Dorms and Diners in Revenue service for the holidays?


----------



## jis

If I remember correctly these are the same cars that have been out of the den for a little while earlier this year.


----------



## R30A

You remember correctly that the cars were here. They were delivered last July, and were returned by the same engines which then proceeded to pick up 61000 for the second time, and 61001 for the first time(I think it was last November)!


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> According to a report from Elmira Heights NY, while everyone was busy remembering 9/11 a short train pulled out of the CAF plant with the following consist:
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt]P42 79, Diner 68000 ALBANY, Sleeper 62500 PORTAGE RIVER, Bag-Dorm 69000, Cafe 48154 and GP38-3 520[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt]Apparently it was headed to Albany. I wonder what came of the equipment move, since I have not seen any further reports on it anywhere else.[/SIZE]


With only one report, I'm not at all sure this is actually *true*. It's a perfect false rumor for the sort of people who like to be impish, since it's a plausible rumor which I could have made up from available public information -- with lots of seemingly convincing detail, but detail which is easy to generate and hard to disprove.

If it is true, it's good news. These are of course the three "pilot cars" which came out for testing a while back and were sent back for modifications. So if this is true, they are now out for second-round testing -- which is a very good thing. I was saying earlier that the main uncertainty in the delivery schedule for these car types is the question of how long it will take to get all the design bugs worked out of the prototypes so that the mass production can start. Of course, they could go back with another huge list of necessary fixes.

It's possible that they're being inspected at Albany in a top secret fashion. Or maybe it was just a false rumor...


----------



## keelhauled

Someone on railroad.net said the same thing, but was less specific. They also claimed to have photos, but didn't share any.


----------



## Ryan

I'm an hour from ALB and heading back to the airport Friday morning. Maybe I need to leave a little early and make a detour.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to a report from Elmira Heights NY, while everyone was busy remembering 9/11 a short train pulled out of the CAF plant with the following consist:
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt]P42 79, Diner 68000 ALBANY, Sleeper 62500 PORTAGE RIVER, Bag-Dorm 69000, Cafe 48154 and GP38-3 520[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=10.5pt]Apparently it was headed to Albany. I wonder what came of the equipment move, since I have not seen any further reports on it anywhere else.[/SIZE]
> 
> 
> 
> With only one report, I'm not at all sure this is actually *true*. It's a perfect false rumor for the sort of people who like to be impish, since it's a plausible rumor which I could have made up from available public information -- with lots of seemingly convincing detail, but detail which is easy to generate and hard to disprove.
> 
> If it is true, it's good news. These are of course the three "pilot cars" which came out for testing a while back and were sent back for modifications. So if this is true, they are now out for second-round testing -- which is a very good thing. I was saying earlier that the main uncertainty in the delivery schedule for these car types is the question of how long it will take to get all the design bugs worked out of the prototypes so that the mass production can start. Of course, they could go back with another huge list of necessary fixes.
> 
> It's possible that they're being inspected at Albany in a top secret fashion. Or maybe it was just a false rumor...
Click to expand...

Edited out as the photos were old.


----------



## busboy

Why is everything such a top secret with Amtrak. Don't they communicate what's going on with their employees?


----------



## Acela150

The only thing with those photos is that the Pointless Arrow is on the Equipment. I know they switched from the Pointless Arrow to the Waves on the bag cars. I don't know if they kept the PA on the cars.


----------



## jis

The email that I got (indirectly) from someone that many of us know had eight photos attached, two of which appear above. I think these are still prototype test cars and they have not received any new striping or decals since the last time we saw them. But it is also possible that it is a hoax. That is why I posed the question as to whether someone else had seen or heard something about this move.

The only other data point that we have so far is on rr.net from someone who is at Albany Yard and he has heard nothing about it. So likely that it did not happen afterall, unless we hear otherwise from an additional source.


----------



## StriderGDM

busboy said:


> Why is everything such a top secret with Amtrak. Don't they communicate what's going on with their employees?


Because it's not relevant for most employees to know.


----------



## R30A

Not to be overly skeptical. but I do find it highly suspect that the weather is cloudy, that they have the pointless arrow, and that they were picked up by 79 and 520.

Each on its own would be nothing to be suspicious about, but together, it would be an incredible coincidence that conditions would be EXACTLY the same as their original delivery on 7/8/14.


----------



## lo2e

I'm with you, R30A, it does appear to be an amazing coincidence. I won't say it's not possible, but very, very unlikely.

For reference, when the last batch of baggage cars left CAF in August, the locos were 41 and 520, as shown on the YouTube video of the move.


----------



## Ryan

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3459872


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Well, my apologies. Those pictures were sent to me a few days ago. I asked if they were recent and the sender wasn't positive but thought they were. After seeing the comment here about engines 79/520 making a recent move, I checked these and saw the engine numbers matched. There was no meta data in the photos to indicate date taken, so I posted them. It appears they are indeed recycled from July 2014. Whoops!


----------



## Ryan

Google image search is your friend. 

I figured if they were old, someone would have posted them somewhere. h34r:


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Four new baggage cars from the most recent delivery were released from Hialeah today, heading north on 98(18) to Washington then on to Chicago.


----------



## neroden

So we're still waiting for the all-important second round of testing on the bag-dorms, sleepers, and diners. :-( It's been long enough, you'd think they'd have worked out most of the bugs by now...


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakLKL said:


> Four new baggage cars from the most recent delivery were released from Hialeah today, heading north on 98(18) to Washington then on to Chicago.


They are actually going all the way to left coast. Perhaps someone can send you a picture of the move just in case there are any doubters out there and you can post them...next year!









neroden said:


> So we're still waiting for the all-important second round of testing on the bag-dorms, sleepers, and diners. :-( It's been long enough, you'd think they'd have worked out most of the bugs by now...



There were a lot of mods.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we're still waiting for the all-important second round of testing on the bag-dorms, sleepers, and diners. :-( It's been long enough, you'd think they'd have worked out most of the bugs by now...
> 
> 
> 
> There were a lot of mods.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, but it has been *14 months*. You can build a prototype of a ground-up design in 14 months!... it really should come out for testing sometime soon...


----------



## Acela150

It amazes me how impatient people are...

I'd rather have things be tested, sent back for the needed MODS, and then bring them back. Septa screwed this up big time with the SL V's.


----------



## StriderGDM

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we're still waiting for the all-important second round of testing on the bag-dorms, sleepers, and diners. :-( It's been long enough, you'd think they'd have worked out most of the bugs by now...
> 
> 
> 
> There were a lot of mods.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Makes sense, but it has been *14 months*. You can build a prototype of a ground-up design in 14 months!... it really should come out for testing sometime soon...
Click to expand...

My guess is most of those 14 months, those prototypes have at Elmira doing nothing while the assembly lines were fully setup for the baggage cars.

It's quite possible that they know what mods need to be done and don't feel a need for another round of testing before they start building. And they can't start building until the baggage car lines are done.


----------



## neroden

StriderGDM said:


> My guess is most of those 14 months, those prototypes have at Elmira doing nothing while the assembly lines were fully setup for the baggage cars.
> 
> It's quite possible that they know what mods need to be done and don't feel a need for another round of testing before they start building. And they can't start building until the baggage car lines are done.


Mmm, that is a possibility. That's a *high risk* possibility, though, because if there *is* a problem with the mods, it means MORE delays. Much better to have done the mods on the prototypes in parallel with the baggage car lines. Requires more workers, however, and I guess CAF might be cheaping out on that.


----------



## Agent

A YouTube acquaintance of mine took this video today of Amtrak #3(22) in Riverside, Illinois with two new Viewliner II baggage cars. They are AMTK 61056 and 61054. There are also two private cars on this _Southwest Chief_.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is most of those 14 months, those prototypes have at Elmira doing nothing while the assembly lines were fully setup for the baggage cars.
> 
> It's quite possible that they know what mods need to be done and don't feel a need for another round of testing before they start building. And they can't start building until the baggage car lines are done.
> 
> 
> 
> Mmm, that is a possibility. That's a *high risk* possibility, though, because if there *is* a problem with the mods, it means MORE delays. Much better to have done the mods on the prototypes in parallel with the baggage car lines. Requires more workers, however, and I guess CAF might be cheaping out on that.
Click to expand...

Seems like the completion rate of the baggage cars slowed notably after the May delivery. Some sort of stretch-out after they reached 48 or so, iirc. Makes me think perhaps the CAF plant kept one line for the remainder of the baggage cars, and switched to using the other line for other cars, as per the original stated plan. If so, that could mean they're further along with the latest round of mods on diners, sleepers, and bag-dorms than we might think otherwise.

Sheer speculation, of course. That's sort of what we're left to work with. LOL.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Three more baggage cars heading north on 98 today, then on to Chicago for service out west.


----------



## Agent

This is a video of Amtrak #3(21) with a pair of Viewliner baggage cars filmed by the same person as the video I posted a few days ago. So in two days, four new baggage cars left Chicago to Los Angeles. Does this mean another train is about to start using them?


----------



## Agent

This report says the northbound _Coast Starlight_ left Los Angeles today with a new baggage car (plus a private car).


----------



## neroden

Agent said:


> This report says the northbound _Coast Starlight_ left Los Angeles today with a new baggage car (plus a private car).


Not clear to me whether the new baggage car on that was in revenue service or deadheading.

It would make logical sense to convert the Coast Starlight next. Currently, Heritage baggage cars are not handled east of Chicago except possibly for DC (there are reports of the Capitol Limited carrying one sometimes) and Hialeah. Every base west of Chicago still needs to know how to deal with them. Since the Empire Builder is using Viewliner baggage cars, if the Coast Starlight converts, then both Portland and Seattle can forget about Heritage baggage cars entirely. I'd guess the California Zephyr next, since that allows Oakland to forget about Heritage cars -- to allow LA to stop dealing with Heritage cars, you'd have to convert both the Sunset Limited and the Southwest Chief. But it could be in the other order.


----------



## TommyBNSF

Looks like those predictions were right. NB #14 had a new baggage car with no heritage baggage yesterday. The SB still had a heritage baggage that day.


----------



## looshi

This article about the Kansas City Streetcar has a photo from the CAF test track.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/n-america/single-view/view/first-kansas-city-streetcar-on-test.html

In the background, you can make out a number of passenger cars. Can anyone tell what type of cars these are? Are they more baggage cars or the prototype cars from before? The car on the left almost looks like it has a row of Viewliner windows, but I can't be certain.


----------



## PerRock

The angle is wrong to make any assurances as to what they are. The only thing I can say for certain is that the 2nd car on the left is not a straight baggage car.

peter


----------



## R30A

I have seen other photos from the same set. I believe all but one car around the testing LRVs are sleepers. The last one, not visible in this photo is a completed baggage car. I think all the shells are done and have been for a while.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

The Eagle departed Chicago with a Heritage baggage car yesterday. I also saw the eastbound Empire Builder yesterday and it continues to have a new viewliner baggage car.

AR


----------



## west point

Now that it is a new physical year maybe deliveries of view-2s will accelerate.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

west point said:


> Now that it is a new physical year maybe deliveries of view-2s will accelerate.


The timing of payments could be a factor, or perhaps was a factor, in the delays.

In that case, if Amtrak wrote a big check (electronic funds transfer, but let's use the old-fashioned terms), on September 25, last Friday, then its reported cash on hand as of the September 30 end of Fiscal Year 2015 will be $10 million less than it could have been. And CAF's cash on hand would be $10 million greater (ignoring CAFs ability to shuffle the funds in the meantime).

So all things being equal, it would make sense for Amtrak to hold any such $10 million payment until Friday, October 2. (With any luck Amtrak could make the deduction from the account happen on Monday, October 5, to capture the float -- or have the banks fixed things so that only banks get the float?)

If that last payment of Fiscal 2016 was actually due about 30 days before (and I think such a delay could happen without bringing a lot of lawyers into the thing), then the two parties could have agreed to a stretch out of payment and delivery. Any hard feelings about a payment coming a month late should be lost in the larger problem of the deliveries being years late.

++++++++

I'm hoping Amtrak is feeling more comfortable about its forecast spending after Sen Schumer's leak that Alstom had bid about $2.5 Billion to build the Acela IIs.

For maybe no good reason, I'd been carrying a rough estimate of $2.7 Billion in my head. Of course, we have no real idea of what all is included in either number, and they may not be comparable at all. But it is a possible reading that the Acela IIs will come in for less than in the preliminary budgeting.

An "extra" $200 million in the budget could make another batch of Viewliner II sleepers look a lot more possible.


----------



## A Voice

WoodyinNYC said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> An "extra" $200 million in the budget could make another batch of Viewliner II sleepers look a lot more possible.
Click to expand...

Amtrak needs Viewliner II coaches and cafe/lounge cars much worse at this point than additional sleepers. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but weren't there only about 85 heritage sleepers circa 1990 (not counting Slumbercoaches); Just ten more than will exist of Viewliner cars shortly.

I think a case could also be made for building some crew dormitory cars for eastern trains which will not utilize the upcoming baggage-dorm Viewliners. This would free space in current sleepers for paying passengers.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

A Voice said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> An "extra" $200 million in the budget could make another batch of Viewliner II sleepers look a lot more possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak needs Viewliner II coaches and cafe/lounge cars much worse at this point than additional sleepers.
> 
> ...
Click to expand...

Amtrak should order a few hundred single-level coaches, lounges, cafe cars, whatevers. But that's the way to do it, order hundreds at once.

At this moment, we can order another 20 or 30 Viewliner II sleepers (or bag-dorms, whatevers) from CAF.

But when CAF's open assembly line closes, this opportunity goes away. In the future, an order for another 20 Viewliner II sleepers would be about like an order for 2 more, with the cost difference between handmade cars and mass production models. So it's now or never for more sleepers.

Going for an order for new single-level coaches, well, lessee. A Request for Proposals, some months pass, bids come in and a winner is picked, a prototype is constructed which may or may NOT pass testing, further delays may ensue, production problems arise, delays may ensue, so deliveries may begin years and years after the decision to order more cars is made.

I feel like I've grown old waiting for the lousy 130-car order from CAF.

But now, we could have another 20 or 30 Viewliner II sleepers in operation within two or three years. Then Amtrak will concentrate on getting the Acela II order right and delivered more or less on time.

Reckon the soonest we get new single-level coaches could be .. well, I won't feel old, I'll be dead and gone.


----------



## A Voice

WoodyinNYC said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> An "extra" $200 million in the budget could make another batch of Viewliner II sleepers look a lot more possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak needs Viewliner II coaches and cafe/lounge cars much worse at this point than additional sleepers.
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak should order a few hundred single-level coaches, lounges, cafe cars, whatevers. But that's the way to do it, order hundreds at once.
> 
> At this moment, we can order another 20 or 30 Viewliner II sleepers (or bag-dorms, whatevers) from CAF.
> 
> But when CAF's open assembly line closes, this opportunity goes away. In the future, an order for another 20 Viewliner II sleepers would be about like an order for 2 more, with the cost difference between handmade cars and mass production models. So it's now or never for more sleepers.
> 
> Going for an order for new single-level coaches, well, lessee. A Request for Proposals, some months pass, bids come in and a winner is picked, a prototype is constructed which may or may NOT pass testing, further delays may ensue, production problems arise, delays may ensue, so deliveries may begin years and years after the decision to order more cars is made.
> 
> I feel like I've grown old waiting for the lousy 130-car order from CAF.
> 
> But now, we could have another 20 or 30 Viewliner II sleepers in operation within two or three years. Then Amtrak will concentrate on getting the Acela II order right and delivered more or less on time.
> 
> Reckon the soonest we get new single-level coaches could be .. well, I won't feel old, I'll be dead and gone.
Click to expand...

That is also a strong argument why we need a coach and lounge car order (Amfleet II replacements) sooner rather than later; The 'production line' is open right now. You shouldn't need a prototype since the design is already proven and in production, and a coach is will differ from a sleeper primarily just in interior layout; Structurally they would be essentially the same car. Indeed, keeping the production effort going with a coach order would retain the possibility of ordering additional sleepers down the road.


----------



## west point

It would seem there would be no problem of V-2 structure for coaches. However if a V-2 lounge gets rooftop glass like superliner lounges there might be the need for structural work and a test for structural integrity.


----------



## Thirdrail7

The CS should be fully equipped with the new bags by next week...if not sooner.


----------



## DCAKen

neroden said:


> It would make logical sense to convert the Coast Starlight next. Currently, Heritage baggage cars are not handled east of Chicago except possibly for DC (there are reports of the Capitol Limited carrying one sometimes) and Hialeah.


I watch the CL go by my office window every day and I haven't seen a Heritage baggage car on it for quite a while..


----------



## DCAKen

Today's CL has four VL baggage cars on it. Three looked brand-spanking new and one has more road grime on it.


----------



## west point

The Eagle with a Heritage bag would indicate that there was a shortage of operable heritage bags and that was the reason for the bag-coach only on it in the past. Now with the heritage bags being replaced the surplus allows Amtrak to assign a heritage for now and probably a V-2 once the last batch of V-2s are delivered and accepted. Also the training of personnel will need completion.


----------



## neroden

Educated guess: the Sunset Limited to New Orleans

will soon get the bag-dorm, while the full baggage car will run through from the Eagle. I think this matches baggage traffic loads, and points towards the PIP plan....


----------



## Amtrak172

neroden said:


> Educated guess: the Sunset Limited to New Orleans
> 
> will soon get the bag-dorm, while the full baggage car will run through from the Eagle. I think this matches baggage traffic loads, and points towards the PIP plan....


So for the Sunset Limited when the Eagle and the Limited combine the train will have both a bag-dorm and a full baggage car?


----------



## neroden

Amtrak172 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Educated guess: the Sunset Limited to New Orleans
> 
> will soon get the bag-dorm, while the full baggage car will run through from the Eagle. I think this matches baggage traffic loads, and points towards the PIP plan....
> 
> 
> 
> So for the Sunset Limited when the Eagle and the Limited combine the train will have both a bag-dorm and a full baggage car?
Click to expand...

That is my guess...


----------



## afigg

neroden said:


> Educated guess: the Sunset Limited to New Orleans
> 
> will soon get the bag-dorm, while the full baggage car will run through from the Eagle. I think this matches baggage traffic loads, and points towards the PIP plan....


With only 10 bag-dorm cars, where would enough bag-dorms to equip the SL come from? Figure 3 bag-dorms are going to the NYP section of the LSL and 2 to the Cardinal, then have 2 standbys in NYP and CHI. Which leaves 3 bag-dorms for servicing and ? Having only 10 bag-dorms does not support an efficient use of equipment, so we'll what happens with the bag-dorms.


----------



## DSS&A

west point said:


> The Eagle with a Heritage bag would indicate that there was a shortage of operable heritage bags and that was the reason for the bag-coach only on it in the past. Now with the heritage bags being replaced the surplus allows Amtrak to assign a heritage for now and probably a V-2 once the last batch of V-2s are delivered and accepted. Also the training of personnel will need completion.


Hi,

The "heritage baggage car" I saw the other day on the Eagle was a former passenger car that was converted into a baggage car. It is the same type of "converted baggage car" that I have seen on the train recently. I have only seen the train about once a week.

AR


----------



## A Voice

I believe the new Viewliner baggage-dorm cars are intended for the Lake Shore Limited and the Cardinal. Placing one of these cars on either the sunset Limited or the Eagle makes little sense, since you would still need a transition dorm also between the lower level baggage and the Superliners.


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Educated guess: the Sunset Limited to New Orleans
> 
> will soon get the bag-dorm, while the full baggage car will run through from the Eagle. I think this matches baggage traffic loads, and points towards the PIP plan....
> 
> 
> 
> With only 10 bag-dorm cars, where would enough bag-dorms to equip the SL come from? Figure 3 bag-dorms are going to the NYP section of the LSL and 2 to the Cardinal, then have 2 standbys in NYP and CHI. Which leaves 3 bag-dorms for servicing and ? Having only 10 bag-dorms does not support an efficient use of equipment, so we'll what happens with the bag-dorms.
Click to expand...

I don't believe any bag dorms will go to any Superliner train. It just doesn't make any sense. Yep, they will go on the LSL and the Card.


----------



## R30A

10 cars for a service where 5 are required is a tremendous spare factor. Perhaps 2 more will end up on 65/66/67, which I could see utilizing 1.5 sleepers. Perhaps they'd make sense on the Pennsylvanian-Capitol combo.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

A Voice said:


> I believe the new Viewliner baggage-dorm cars are intended for the Lake Shore Limited and the Cardinal. Placing one of these cars on either the sunset Limited or the Eagle makes little sense, since you would still need a transition dorm also between the lower level baggage and the Superliners.


I see them converting the Trans Dorms into Full Roomette Sleepers. Might be nice to convert the Lower Level "Office" into a Loungette.


----------



## TylerP42

Why don't they have single level lounges anymore? The cafe car is uncomfortable and usually looks derelict and non-appealing. I know there are some on Acela and Cascades, but what about long distance?


----------



## jebr

The Amfleet cafe is considered the lounge car as well. At the time they were built, Amtrak thought that the design would be desired by passengers.

Since they're operationally okay and not knocking on death's door like the Heritage fleet is, and since Amtrak doesn't see the monetary gain by having additional or replacement cafe cars (like they do for the sleeper cars,) there's no reason for Amtrak to set aside the money to replace them yet.


----------



## Agent

AMTK 61053 is in service on the Amtrak #5(02) out of Chicago today. This either marks the beginning of regular service for Viewliner II baggage cars on the _California Zephyr_, or this set of the _Zephyr_ was given a new baggage car so it would be a better sight for the executives riding on the end. I suppose the second second option is a bit improbable, right? Right?


----------



## TylerP42

Today's 29 into Chicago had 4 V2 Baggage cars getting delivered to Chicago, I presume for LD Service.


----------



## TylerP42

Conductor confirmed my suspicions. Going to be used on 5 and 6.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

TylerP42 said:


> Conductor confirmed my suspicions. Going to be used on 5 and 6.


So that others (who have not memorized the numbering system of Amtrak's many trains) don't have to click thru Amtrak.com to get the info, by #5 and 6 he refers to the _California Zephyr_.


----------



## jis

WoodyinNYC said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conductor confirmed my suspicions. Going to be used on 5 and 6.
> 
> 
> 
> So that others (who have not memorized the numbering system of Amtrak's many trains) don't have to click thru Amtrak.com to get the info, by #5 and 6 he refers to the _California Zephyr_.
Click to expand...

Of course just giving the name of the train should not be that hard. but then again that does not sound satisfactorily geeky, does it?


----------



## TylerP42

My apologies, I was just typing it out as fast as possible so I could get some sleep before Chicago.


----------



## Ryan

Its also a lot easier to spell. CZ is easy to spell, but then people complain about acronyms.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> Its also a lot easier to spell. CZ is easy to spell, but then people complain about acronyms.


it is amazing how much trouble rail enthusiasts seem to have with just a dozen or so LD trains. I suppose they would be totally freaked out in Europe or in India.


----------



## neroden

neroden said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Educated guess: the Sunset Limited to New Orleans
> 
> will soon get the bag-dorm, while the full baggage car will run through from the Eagle. I think this matches baggage traffic loads, and points towards the PIP plan....
> 
> 
> 
> So for the Sunset Limited when the Eagle and the Limited combine the train will have both a bag-dorm and a full baggage car?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my guess...
Click to expand...

Sorry, I said "bag dorm" when I meant "Superliner bag-coach". *sigh*

My vision is that the Texas Eagle runs with a full baggage car and transition dorm, while the Sunset Limited to New Orleans runs with a coach-bag and no transition dorm (like the Portland section of the Empire Builder). The 'tail is wagging the dog' on the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited combo these days, with heavier loads going up the Texas Eagle side, so this is what I figure will happen.


----------



## jis

Now that makes much more sense!


----------



## WoodyinNYC

TylerP42 said:


> My apologies, I was just typing it out as fast as possible so I could get some sleep before Chicago.


I was grumbling, but not barking. I ain't mad atcha. Appreciate your input. But some of us on the outside just don't speak the lingo of the insiders. :mellow:


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Educated guess: the Sunset Limited to New Orleans
> 
> will soon get the bag-dorm, while the full baggage car will run through from the Eagle. I think this matches baggage traffic loads, and points towards the PIP plan....
> 
> 
> 
> So for the Sunset Limited when the Eagle and the Limited combine the train will have both a bag-dorm and a full baggage car?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is my guess...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry, I said "bag dorm" when I meant "Superliner bag-coach". *sigh*
> 
> My vision is that the Texas Eagle runs with a full baggage car and transition dorm, while the Sunset Limited to New Orleans runs with a coach-bag and no transition dorm (like the Portland section of the Empire Builder). The 'tail is wagging the dog' on the Texas Eagle/Sunset Limited combo these days, with heavier loads going up the Texas Eagle side, so this is what I figure will happen.
Click to expand...

Now that actually makes sense.


----------



## Agent

Agent said:


> AMTK 61053 is in service on the Amtrak #5(02) out of Chicago today. This either marks the beginning of regular service for Viewliner II baggage cars on the _California Zephyr_, or this set of the _Zephyr_ was given a new baggage car so it would be a better sight for the executives riding on the end. I suppose the second second option is a bit improbable, right? Right?


I guess the answer is "No, it is probable" since Amtrak #5(03) is heading west with a heritage baggage car.


----------



## R30A

Saw Viewliner I 62014 today, with newly applied name "Croton River", and newly reapplied Phase IV Decals. I sort of thought the names would come with restriping in III, but I guess not.


----------



## Amtrak172

R30A said:


> Saw Viewliner I 62014 today, with newly applied name "Croton River", and newly reapplied Phase IV Decals. I sort of thought the names would come with restriping in III, but I guess not.


Nice! You have a pic?


----------



## TylerP42

For some reason I cannot quote, but the Croton River was on the LSL. It was actually right behind my sleeping car last night. I should of taken a picture. The decals did not seem all to new, close up when I was looking at it in Toledo and in Chicago.


----------



## Amtrak172

TylerP42 said:


> For some reason I cannot quote, but the Croton River was on the LSL. It was actually right behind my sleeping car last night. I should of taken a picture. The decals did not seem all to new, close up when I was looking at it in Toledo and in Chicago.


Ahh ok. So the car wasn't repainted (or decaled)?


----------



## TylerP42

I'm not too sure, because I didn't pay *too* much attention to it, but a few glances (it was on both LSL that I took that day, 48 and 49) and it didn't seem like it was repainted or redecaled. I really wish I knew it was different though, I would of taken a photo.


----------



## Amtrak172

TylerP42 said:


> I'm not too sure, because I didn't pay *too* much attention to it, but a few glances (it was on both LSL that I took that day, 48 and 49) and it didn't seem like it was repainted or redecaled. I really wish I knew it was different though, I would of taken a photo.


Ah. Thanks man. Did you happen to notice the cars name plate said Viewliner or the cars name?


----------



## R30A

I think somebody would have noticed had it been there for very long. The decals both of the name and the entirety of the car itself all looked new. The old nameplate which the name decal was placed on looks every bit of its 20 years in age however.


----------



## jis

I have been given to understand that the Viewliner Is will not receive their Phase III striping until they get upgraded to Viewliner II layout.


----------



## Amtrak172

jis said:


> I have been given to understand that the Viewliner Is will not receive their Phase III striping until they get upgraded to Viewliner II layout.


What about the Amfleet II's? When will they receive their Phase III?


----------



## jis

I have not heard anything about Amfleet IIs.


----------



## BAV

The California Zephyr #5 left Chicago with a Viewliner baggage car today.


----------



## Agent

It's AMTK 61049 that's on Amtrak #5(05). This is the third Viewliner baggage car that's been in service on the _California Zephyr_. Maybe this is the charm that gets them in service from now on.

The green lights on the sides of the Viewliners glow a lot brighter than the lights on the Superliners.


----------



## TylerP42

agent, are you referring to the brake lights on the sides of the Superliners?


----------



## Agent

TylerP42 said:


> agent, are you referring to the brake lights on the sides of the Superliners?


Yes.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I have been given to understand that the Viewliner Is will not receive their Phase III striping until they get upgraded to Viewliner II layout.


OK, that sort of makes sense. However, there seems to be no schedule for doing that whatsoever. Is it even still supposed to happen? 2017? 2018?


----------



## Bob Dylan

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been given to understand that the Viewliner Is will not receive their Phase III striping until they get upgraded to Viewliner II layout.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, that sort of makes sense. However, there seems to be no schedule for doing that whatsoever. Is it even still supposed to happen? 2017? 2018?
Click to expand...

That soon huh?


----------



## A Voice

Does Amtrak even have a budget to upgrade the existing Viewliner sleepers? I can see this becoming one of those things which is planned, and then just never happens.


----------



## andersone

Sorry it took so long to post these,,, but they are photos of the CZ 9 9-7 of the new bag car. I read a post here in Lincoln that they were on the train (we got on at the tail end in Salt Lake so did not see them) so when we got to Omaha i positioned myself in the forward car, jumped off and got these pics. We were something like four hours so i knew we wouldst dawdle i bevel this is the first time they ran the new bag cars in service on the CZ.


----------



## Thirdrail7

It appears this particular crew isn't using the shelves.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Thirdrail7 said:


> It appears this particular crew isn't using the shelves.


From my perspective, there seems to be an inverse relationship between seniority and shelf use. The higher the seniority, the less likely the shelves will be used (the old "this is how we've always done it and I'll never change" mentality). I personally love the upper shelves. Put all the carry-ons, duffles and hanging bags there so you can better stack and arrange the larger suitcases on the floor. Also reduces bending over to place or pick up small items on the floor. Win-win.

I'm struggling to find a use for the bottom shelves, though. They would have been nice to keep bags off the wet floor in leaky Heritage cars. In the Viewliners, they just take up space. Using them greatly reduces both vertical and horizontal storage space.


----------



## Agent

For some reason, Amtrak #5(08) has two Viewliner baggage cars behind its engines. They appear to be the AMTK 61038 and 61053. The latter was in the consist of #6 yesterday, so the former is the one they added to the consist. This _California Zephyr _was right on time when it came through Agency, Iowa.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I think one is headed for the CS.


----------



## TiBike

AmtrakLKL said:


> From my perspective, there seems to be an inverse relationship between seniority and shelf use. The higher the seniority, the less likely the shelves will be used (the old "this is how we've always done it and I'll never change" mentality). I personally love the upper shelves. Put all the carry-ons, duffles and hanging bags there so you can better stack and arrange the larger suitcases on the floor. Also reduces bending over to place or pick up small items on the floor. Win-win.
> 
> I'm struggling to find a use for the bottom shelves, though. They would have been nice to keep bags off the wet floor in leaky Heritage cars. In the Viewliners, they just take up space. Using them greatly reduces both vertical and horizontal storage space.


Does it look like the bike racks have been installed?


----------



## PerRock

TiBike said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> From my perspective, there seems to be an inverse relationship between seniority and shelf use. The higher the seniority, the less likely the shelves will be used (the old "this is how we've always done it and I'll never change" mentality). I personally love the upper shelves. Put all the carry-ons, duffles and hanging bags there so you can better stack and arrange the larger suitcases on the floor. Also reduces bending over to place or pick up small items on the floor. Win-win.
> 
> I'm struggling to find a use for the bottom shelves, though. They would have been nice to keep bags off the wet floor in leaky Heritage cars. In the Viewliners, they just take up space. Using them greatly reduces both vertical and horizontal storage space.
> 
> 
> 
> Does it look like the bike racks have been installed?
Click to expand...

Yes, the bike racks are part of the shelving system.

Peter


----------



## afigg

Amtrak recently posted the audited FY2014 annual financial report (66 page PDF). FY2014 ended a year ago on September 30, 2014, so this financial report is a bit late. The reason for mentioning it here is a paragraph on page 41 on the spending and delivery schedule for the Viewliner II order. The PDF file is copy protected in that I can't copy and paste the text, so I will just re-write the relevant sentences:

"As of September 30, 2014, the Company has incurred $95.2 million in project related costs. As of September 30, 2014, the Company had not taken delivery of any of the cars. Deliveries began in FY2015 and final delivery of all cars is expected by *April 2017*."


----------



## WoodyinNYC

afigg said:


> Amtrak recently posted the audited FY2014 annual financial report ... the relevant sentences:
> 
> "As of September 30, 2014, the Company has incurred $95.2 million in project related costs. As of September 30, 2014, the Company had not taken delivery of any of the cars. Deliveries began in FY2015 and final delivery of all cars is expected by *April 2017*."


Or about 18 months from now. About 73 cars to go, iirc, 13 more baggage cars coming along "any day now" LOL, then 25 diners, 10 bag dorms, and 25 sleepers.

Lessee, 18 months or 78 weeks to finish 73 cars. Maybe the final 13 baggage cars will pop out in one batch, then 60 cars to go, for an average of three new cars a month? Nah, the concept of "average rate of completion", or even the concept of "scheduled completion", seem to hardly apply here. But another year and a half to finish seems a reasonable, plausible goal at this point. Not that I'd admit surprise to see further delays.

Meanwhile look at it like this:

Finish the baggage cars by the end of this calendar year. With the new cars in service, a good impact on maintenance and operating costs, modest effect on revenues for FY 2016, and slightly better in FY 2017.

Then 25 diners delivered by the end of FY 2016 next September 30. With the new cars in service, very good impact on maintenance and operating costs, modest effect on revenues for FY 2017.

Ten bag-dorms and 25 sleepers delivered by April 2017. With some of the cars in service, a nice effect on maintenance, operations, and revenues for FY 2017. Then at last, substantial impact on revenues for FY 2018 and forward.

And we've got maybe another year to dream about exercising the option order to get another 20 or 25 sleepers and even possibly a handful more diners. Probably not, but I'm still wishing.


----------



## HenryK

It occurred to me that only hopeless foamers could find baggage cars interesting. (I'm one of them, too. Foamers, that is.)


----------



## TiBike

HenryK said:


> It occurred to me that only hopeless foamers could find baggage cars interesting. (I'm one of them, too. Foamers, that is.)


Bike geeks too, and I'm of one those .


----------



## CCC1007

Does anyone know how much baggage can one of the viewliner baggage cars hold, weight wise?


----------



## Thirdrail7

The number 52,000 is etched in my mind so I'm going with 52,000 pounds.


----------



## CCC1007

If someone can confirm then I will be greatful.

Thanks for the quick reply.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> The number 52,000 is etched in my mind so I'm going with 52,000 pounds.


That is the correct number. It's written in nice big letters over the doors.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Acela150 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The number 52,000 is etched in my mind so I'm going with 52,000 pounds.
> 
> 
> 
> That is the correct number. It's written in nice big letters over the doors.
Click to expand...

And now that many conductors have been issued hand scales they can individually weigh and tally each bag to ensure they don't go over the limit. :giggle:


----------



## Thirdrail7

This seems like an appropriate place to put these pictures:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

7 days till the last 12 bags are delivered?


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> 7 days till the last 12 bags are delivered?



You must have been a master at the game show

. (The link is clean. I used to love this game.)
Ryan, are you prepared? If all goes according to plan, you have work to do next WED,THU and FRI. ^_^


----------



## Ryan

An Eagle Scout is always prepared.  h34r:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 7 days till the last 12 bags are delivered?
> 
> 
> 
> You must have been a master at the game show
Click to expand...

I do seem to have a ability to remember some stuff I read online. I remembered reading recently that the last bags would be delivered this month. Now if I could figure out what type of job this talent would be good for as I think I need to change my career.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> An Eagle Scout is always prepared.  h34r:


So is a good sailor!  Better get back from Iceland!


----------



## neroden

AmtrakBlue said:


> I do seem to have a ability to remember some stuff I read online. I remembered reading recently that the last bags would be delivered this month. Now if I could figure out what type of job this talent would be good for as I think I need to change my career.


Procurement, or personal shopper, perhaps. Boss asks for something specific, you figure out where to find exactly what they want, and you remember where to find it.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> I'm struggling to find a use for the bottom shelves, though. They would have been nice to keep bags off the wet floor in leaky Heritage cars. In the Viewliners, they just take up space. Using them greatly reduces both vertical and horizontal storage space.


Maybe the floor will get wet and muddy when winter comes in the Northeast and snow starts being tracked in.

Meanwhile, while it's nice to see all the baggage cars delivered, I'm really wondering about the fact that the other models have not come out for "second round testing". I hope there are no significant design flaws still left to be corrected at this point!


----------



## StriderGDM

neroden said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm struggling to find a use for the bottom shelves, though. They would have been nice to keep bags off the wet floor in leaky Heritage cars. In the Viewliners, they just take up space. Using them greatly reduces both vertical and horizontal storage space.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the floor will get wet and muddy when winter comes in the Northeast and snow starts being tracked in.
> 
> Meanwhile, while it's nice to see all the baggage cars delivered, I'm really wondering about the fact that the other models have not come out for "second round testing". I hope there are no significant design flaws still left to be corrected at this point!
Click to expand...

I may have asked, but isn't this where the rear tires of bicycles go when "mounted"?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

StriderGDM said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm struggling to find a use for the bottom shelves, though. They would have been nice to keep bags off the wet floor in leaky Heritage cars. In the Viewliners, they just take up space. Using them greatly reduces both vertical and horizontal storage space.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the floor will get wet and muddy when winter comes in the Northeast and snow starts being tracked in.
> 
> Meanwhile, while it's nice to see all the baggage cars delivered, I'm really wondering about the fact that the other models have not come out for "second round testing". I hope there are no significant design flaws still left to be corrected at this point!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I may have asked, but isn't this where the rear tires of bicycles go when "mounted"?
Click to expand...

When in the up, or closed, position, the lower luggage rack protrudes out far enough that it blocks the lower tire hook, thus the rack must be lowered. IIRC, the bike doesn't touch the luggage rack, or if it does the rack isn't providing any additional support/securement. I believe bikes are fully secured by the hooks and a Velcro strap. I'll pay closer attention next time.

So... I'm still looking for a reason to use the lower racks. :unsure:


----------



## PaulM

AmtrakLKL said:


> When in the up, or closed, position, the lower luggage rack protrudes out far enough that it blocks the lower tire hook, thus the rack must be lowered. IIRC, the bike doesn't touch the luggage rack, or if it does the rack isn't providing any additional support/securement. I believe bikes are fully secured by the hooks and a Velcro strap. I'll pay closer attention next time.


May I ask which trains are you talking about?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PaulM said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> When in the up, or closed, position, the lower luggage rack protrudes out far enough that it blocks the lower tire hook, thus the rack must be lowered. IIRC, the bike doesn't touch the luggage rack, or if it does the rack isn't providing any additional support/securement. I believe bikes are fully secured by the hooks and a Velcro strap. I'll pay closer attention next time.
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask which trains are you talking about?
Click to expand...

I think he's talking about the new baggage cars.


----------



## PaulM

AmtrakBlue said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> When in the up, or closed, position, the lower luggage rack protrudes out far enough that it blocks the lower tire hook, thus the rack must be lowered. IIRC, the bike doesn't touch the luggage rack, or if it does the rack isn't providing any additional support/securement. I believe bikes are fully secured by the hooks and a Velcro strap. I'll pay closer attention next time.
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask which trains are you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he's talking about the new baggage cars.
Click to expand...

I realize he's talking about the new baggage cars. But which trains?



> bikes are fully secured by the hooks and a Velcro strap


made it sound like the bike racks are actually being used for their original intended purpose somewhere.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PaulM said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> When in the up, or closed, position, the lower luggage rack protrudes out far enough that it blocks the lower tire hook, thus the rack must be lowered. IIRC, the bike doesn't touch the luggage rack, or if it does the rack isn't providing any additional support/securement. I believe bikes are fully secured by the hooks and a Velcro strap. I'll pay closer attention next time.
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask which trains are you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he's talking about the new baggage cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I realize he's talking about the new baggage cars. But which trains?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bikes are fully secured by the hooks and a Velcro strap
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> made it sound like the bike racks are actually being used for their original intended purpose somewhere.
Click to expand...

Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought all trains were transporting bikes now. I think he's on the east coast trains.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

The trains in question are the Carolinian, Palmetto, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.



PaulM said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask which trains are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> I think he's talking about the new baggage cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I realize he's talking about the new baggage cars. But which trains?
Click to expand...

Carolinian, Crescent, Palmetto, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> Carolinian, Crescent, Palmetto, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.


There's been quite an expansion in "unboxed bike service" lately. The Lake Shore Limited really ought to be next.


----------



## PaulM

AmtrakLKL said:


> The trains in question are the Carolinian, Palmetto, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.


Sorry, that was announced recently. I simply forgot.

Checking Amtrak.com I see that the new services you mention, along with the Heartland flyer, are listed as "Walk-Up Checked Bicycle Service", as opposed to "Walk-On Bicycle Service' which lists the traditional state supported trains along with the relatively new Capitol Limited service.

I'm guessing that the distinction between the two types is that "Walk-up Checked" loading and unloading requires the presence of an Amtrak employee at the baggage car, whereas the "Walk-On" in its many configurations is self loading.

The Capitol Limited is a strange hybrid. All the literature leading up to the service introduction stated you roll your bike to the last car (a coach bag) and load it yourself. But both of the times I used the service, the bike car was the second of 3 coaches; and it appeared that you had to get someone to open the baggage compartment door. I later learned that the door between the vestibule and bike compartment is kept open; and in fact I detrained that way without bothering the conductor. But a newbie wouldn't know that, or even know a coach from a coach bag.

The experience was so painless that I wish there were enough coach bags for all the SL trains,.


----------



## TiBike

Interesting mix of bike policies. If I'm reading it right, on the segments of the Carolinian that are congruent with the state route there's no extra charge for walk up bikes, but elsewhere there is. The Heartland Flyer doesn't charge extra either and allows walk ups at unstaffed stations -- but maybe it's not V2 bags? I'd guess its different equipment but I've never been on it.

If Amtrak can get its head wrapped around state train best practices for walk ups - ie on/off at every station and no extra charge - it'll have a winner.


----------



## A Voice

PaulM said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains in question are the Carolinian, Palmetto, Silver Meteor and Silver Star.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, that was announced recently. I simply forgot.
> 
> Checking Amtrak.com I see that the new services you mention, along with the Heartland flyer, are listed as "Walk-Up Checked Bicycle Service", as opposed to "Walk-On Bicycle Service' which lists the traditional state supported trains along with the relatively new Capitol Limited service.
> 
> I'm guessing that the distinction between the two types is that "Walk-up Checked" loading and unloading requires the presence of an Amtrak employee at the baggage car, whereas the "Walk-On" in its many configurations is self loading.
> 
> The Capitol Limited is a strange hybrid. All the literature leading up to the service introduction stated you roll your bike to the last car (a coach bag) and load it yourself. But both of the times I used the service, the bike car was the second of 3 coaches; and it appeared that you had to get someone to open the baggage compartment door. I later learned that the door between the vestibule and bike compartment is kept open; and in fact I detrained that way without bothering the conductor. But a newbie wouldn't know that, or even know a coach from a coach bag.
> 
> The experience was so painless that I wish there were enough coach bags for all the SL trains,.
Click to expand...

I haven't completely kept up with the new bicycle policies and services (haven't been on a bike since I was a kid), but why is the Capitol Limited carrying bikes in a Superliner coach-baggage - and importantly, why was money spent to equip that car for bicycles - when the new Viewliner baggage cars come ready to carry bikes? Seems like wasted effort.


----------



## TylerP42

The Capitol Limited in Toledo uses boxes and puts them in the baggage car.


----------



## Palmetto

Apparently, there's a crew going to CAF today. Last of the V-II bags?


----------



## jis

Very likely. It is about time.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> Apparently, there's a crew going to CAF today. Last of the V-II bags?


See post #2362.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, there's a crew going to CAF today. Last of the V-II bags?
> 
> 
> 
> See post #2362.
Click to expand...

Did you know that you can put in a link to a specific post like this?

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45804-viewliner-ii-production-status-photos/?p=633132


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Thirdrail7 said:


> This seems like an appropriate place to put these pictures:


*Well*, *I liked it best in the original post. *

Not that I had cracked the code. LOL. It was Amtrak Blue who showed those skillz.

Thanks go to him and Thirdrail7 for this good news.

Now I'm hoping to see the last 12 of the bag cars later this week. But I've so dampened down my expectations, if we get even 6 more cars I'm ready to break into song, *Oh Happy Day!*


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue BTW is not a he. At least she didn't look like a he the last time we met.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> AmtrakBlue BTW is not a he. At she didn't look like a he the last time we met.


Actually, it's in her mini-profile displayed on her posts, but in words, not a pix.

My bad. I'm really glad to see that she's such a full-fledged and productive member of this board since we're so overwhelmingly male otherwise. SarahZ is good (and posts her picture, LOL. But we could probably use more female gender commentators.


----------



## Ryan

I'll bet there are more than you think.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> I'll bet there are more than you think.


Yep, we have lots of really good female members!


----------



## PaulM

TylerP42 said:


> The Capitol Limited in Toledo uses boxes and puts them in the baggage car.


At stations on the CL with checked baggage you have the option, checked in a box or roll-on. Checked ($15 for box and $10 for handling) would be preferable to roll-on ($20) if you were connecting say to Florida since you wouldn't have to pay the $20 for each segment. And you wouldn't have to worry about the bike during the layover. Unless of course you wanted to do some sightseeing during the layover.


----------



## TylerP42

PaulM said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Capitol Limited in Toledo uses boxes and puts them in the baggage car.
> 
> 
> 
> At stations on the CL with checked baggage you have the option, checked in a box or roll-on. Checked ($15 for box and $10 for handling) would be preferable to roll-on ($20) if you were connecting say to Florida since you wouldn't have to pay the $20 for each segment. And you wouldn't have to worry about the bike during the layover. Unless of course you wanted to do some sightseeing during the layover.
Click to expand...

I go to Toledo at least once a week. They don't do roll ons.


----------



## PVD

The Cap Limited is listed on the Amtrak website as being available for walk on (with reservation) The CL route page shows this as effective 9-15.. Of course, that does not mean it is actually happening yet in the real world.


----------



## PaulM

PVD said:


> The Cap Limited is listed on the Amtrak website as being available for walk on (with reservation) The CL route page shows this as effective 9-15.. Of course, that does not mean it is actually happening yet in the real world.


Of course it is. I don't know where Tyler got his information, but anyone showing up to the station with a bike would be pretty angry if the link on the reservation page turned out to be phony.


----------



## TylerP42

PaulM said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Cap Limited is listed on the Amtrak website as being available for walk on (with reservation) The CL route page shows this as effective 9-15.. Of course, that does not mean it is actually happening yet in the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it is. I don't know where Tyler got his information, but anyone showing up to the station with a bike would be pretty angry if the link on the reservation page turned out to be phony.
Click to expand...

Where I'm getting my information? First hand experience, in fact I was there this morning, and they always pack them in boxes. I go 1-5 Times a week and it's mostly the Capitol Limited since it's the first in at 1139.


----------



## jis

Nothing like being there to get the information. That trumps all the armchair generals, which includes me on occasions


----------



## Ryan

That said, the fact that one person hasn't seen it done on their occasional visits doesn't mean that it isn't possible.


----------



## jis

I suspect it is not impossible. If Tyler wants to strengthen his case he needs to ask the station staff at Toledo as to what the actual situation is rather than just observing. If the station staff says they don't do it, well then that would be it I suppose. OTOH if .... I guess you get the idea.


----------



## Agent

Here's a report on the twelve baggage cars that came out of CAF today.


----------



## George K

Agent said:


> Here's a report


(too lazy to look it up)

How many diners are on order, and what's the ETA for the first shipment?

Edit: "The new breakdown is as follows: 25 sleepers, 25 dining cars, 10 baggage-dorms, and 70 baggage cars." from Wikipedia.


----------



## Hal

jis said:


> I suspect it is not impossible. If Tyler wants to strengthen his case he needs to ask the station staff at Toledo as to what the actual situation is rather than just observing. If the station staff says they don't do it, well then that would be it I suppose. OTOH if .... I guess you get the idea.


That is logical. He should inquire further. Because bikes are in boxes might not mean they don't have the walk on service. It might mean the bike owners don't want to walk them on. They might prefer their bikes in boxes. Or that the walk on space is sold out. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> I suspect it is not impossible. If Tyler wants to strengthen his case he needs to ask the station staff at Toledo as to what the actual situation is rather than just observing. If the station staff says they don't do it, well then that would be it I suppose. OTOH if .... I guess you get the idea.



The staff at Toledo is irrelevant. If a person already has their travel documents (such as an e-ticket) and a bike tag, they wouldn't need to deal with the station personnel.

The best bet is to talk to the crew on the train.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Agent said:


> Here's a report on the twelve baggage cars that came out of CAF today.


This is important news. At long last. Whew.

Now we can start to be anxious, or more anxious, about the delivery schedule of the diners.


----------



## neroden

The failure to deliver the "second round test" cars disturbs me. Are they *still* working out design details?

I guess after what happened at Nippon Sharyo, maybe it's worth spending a lot of time on design details. But still...


----------



## edjbox

What "second round test"?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

First four of the last 12 baggage cars are moving to Hialeah today on 97(18). Two more batches of four to move on 97(19) and 97(20).

Last I saw Diner deliveries were to begin in February.


----------



## mgl1978

Here's video I shot today from long bridge park.

Amtrak 97 was carring 4 new baggage car plus to CSX inspection cars.

https://youtu.be/ehBY7UWOQ-s


----------



## WoodyinNYC

AmtrakLKL said:


> ...
> 
> Last I saw Diner deliveries were to begin in February.


Thanks for this tip. February would be OK by me. I'd happily take a few diners on February 29. (it will be a leap year.  )

Hope things keep close to your source's schedule.


----------



## RPC

Well, Amtrak now says the Silver Star will run dinerless through the end of April. That may be an indication of when they're expecting the new diners to show up.


----------



## Amtrak172

Now the Silver Star will run Dinerless until the end of April?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Amtrak172 said:


> Now the Silver Star will run Dinerless until the end of April?


Yes. It was announced here a few weeks ago.


----------



## Amtrak172

AmtrakBlue said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now the Silver Star will run Dinerless until the end of April?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. It was announced here a few weeks ago.
Click to expand...

Wow, I must have missed it. Where was it announced?


----------



## jis

Try booking a sleeper on Silver Star and it will tell you in no uncertain terms.


----------



## Amtrak172

Is it true that the deliveries of the new Diners and Sleepers have been delayed by another year? Is it also true that Amtrak management is intending to eliminate the Silver Star?


----------



## Eric S

Amtrak172 said:


> Is it true that the deliveries of the new Diners and Sleepers have been delayed by another year? Is it also true that Amtrak management is intending to eliminate the Silver Star?


Where did you hear those rumors?


----------



## jis

Amtrak172 said:


> Is it true that the deliveries of the new Diners and Sleepers have been delayed by another year? Is it also true that Amtrak management is intending to eliminate the Silver Star?


Actually along the same vein it is just the first step towards eliminating all long distance trains  Juuust kidding.

Who told you all this?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

My crystal ball says the Viewliner II Diners will be in revenue service by April. But, what do I know.


----------



## neroden

edjbox said:


> What "second round test"?


The original statement from Amtrak and CAF was that

One "pilot car" of each type will be released for testing. Then they will be returned to CAF for modifications.

(This happened.)

Then a second "pilot car" of each type will be released for testing. Then they will be returned to CAF with final design decisions made and mass production will start.

(This happened for the *baggage car only*. The second pilot cars for the other three types have never been seen in the wild.)


----------



## R30A

I don't know if the second pilot cars will need to go back. The 61000 only went back once, and 61001 never went back at all. (They were the second pilots)


----------



## chrsjrcj

AmtrakBlue said:


> My crystal ball says the Viewliner II Diners will be in revenue service by April. But, what do I know.


That would be great news. Especially since I'm planning a trip on the Star in June


----------



## AmtrakBlue

chrsjrcj said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> My crystal ball says the Viewliner II Diners will be in revenue service by April. But, what do I know.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be great news. Especially since I'm planning a trip on the Star in June
Click to expand...

I really do not have any insider info. Just going by the dinerless Star schedule. So things could change in a few months.


----------



## Amtrak172

Eric S said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it true that the deliveries of the new Diners and Sleepers have been delayed by another year? Is it also true that Amtrak management is intending to eliminate the Silver Star?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear those rumors?
Click to expand...

I saw this on 4RR. I know their information is not always correct, but they've been pretty reliable lately.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Amtrak172 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it true that the deliveries of the new Diners and Sleepers have been delayed by another year? Is it also true that Amtrak management is intending to eliminate the Silver Star?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear those rumors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw this on 4RR. I know their information is not always correct, but they've been pretty reliable lately.
Click to expand...


I haven't seen this reported anywhere else.


----------



## VentureForth

I'm sitting here at the Savannah station starting at the Palmetto. First, why'd they put the baggage on the rear? Winter arrangement? Thought that was only for the sleepers. Anyway, first time I noticed the black vents on top. Ugly & not very aerodynamic. Finally, they are filthy. No longer new.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

VentureForth said:


> I'm sitting here at the Savannah station starting at the Palmetto. First, why'd they put the baggage on the rear? Winter arrangement? Thought that was only for the sleepers. Anyway, first time I noticed the black vents on top. Ugly & not very aerodynamic. Finally, they are filthy. No longer new.


 Bag is on the back because they combined 89/90 with regionals that ran close to the same time as them. Therefore 3 coaches are added/removed at WAS. Putting the bag on the back allows easy attachment/detachment.


----------



## R30A

Amtrak172 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it true that the deliveries of the new Diners and Sleepers have been delayed by another year? Is it also true that Amtrak management is intending to eliminate the Silver Star?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear those rumors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw this on 4RR. I know their information is not always correct, but they've been pretty reliable lately.
Click to expand...

In other recent news from 4RR:

The Silver Meteor lost its diner and sleepers and is being cancelled shortly.

Amtrak no longer runs state services.

CAF got the Acela replacement order.

Illinois is backing out of the Charger order.

etc.

Yes, the site has been more reliable lately.

No, that does not mean it is reliable.


----------



## Ryan

Amtrak172 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it true that the deliveries of the new Diners and Sleepers have been delayed by another year? Is it also true that Amtrak management is intending to eliminate the Silver Star?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear those rumors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw this on 4RR. I know their information is not always correct, but they've been pretty reliable lately.
Click to expand...

NOW IT'S BEEN REPORTED HERE TOO, IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!


----------



## Dixie

Just rolled out of Miami yesterday morning on the Silver Star. Lots of new baggage cars sitting in the yard there, 10+ by my count. We were rolling before I realized what i was seeing and started counting.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/29jy06if0tljwyd/AADCOudlrYcpkQppY4ZKBmELa?dl=0


----------



## edjbox

“We’re really working hard to make sure we get the CAF (USA) deliveries for long-distance equipment,” Boardman said of Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, the passenger car maker with a factory in Elmira, N.Y. “We have all the baggage cars now, the dining cars are in the climate chamber, and then we move on to (the baggage dorms and sleepers).”

Statement from Joseph Boardman to trains magazine when discussing his retirement next year


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Six of the last twelve baggage cars have been released from Hialeah. Three deadheaded north on 98 yesterday and three more went north today.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakLKL said:


> Six of the last twelve baggage cars have been released from Hialeah. Three deadheaded north on 98 yesterday and three more went north today.


Actually, 11 have been released and they are heading north, west and south.


----------



## TylerP42

what is the climate chamber?


----------



## Steve4031

I believe it's a place where the cars are exposed to extreme climate conditions to make sure they can operate in these settings.


----------



## neroden

edjbox said:


> “We’re really working hard to make sure we get the CAF (USA) deliveries for long-distance equipment,” Boardman said of Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, the passenger car maker with a factory in Elmira, N.Y. “We have all the baggage cars now, the dining cars are in the climate chamber, and then we move on to (the baggage dorms and sleepers).”
> 
> Statement from Joseph Boardman to trains magazine when discussing his retirement next year


OK, that's great news. I still wish they could pick up a few option cars to improve service (2 to 4 more bag-dorms, and 10 to 15 more sleepers). If they haven't started on the bag-dorms or sleepers yet, it's still a possibility.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Thirdrail7 said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six of the last twelve baggage cars have been released from Hialeah. Three deadheaded north on 98 yesterday and three more went north today.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, 11 have been released and they are heading north, west and south.
Click to expand...

What is south of Hialeah? :blink:


----------



## jis

AmtrakLKL said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six of the last twelve baggage cars have been released from Hialeah. Three deadheaded north on 98 yesterday and three more went north today.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, 11 have been released and they are heading north, west and south.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is south of Hialeah? :blink:
Click to expand...

Miami International Airport


----------



## AmtrakBlue

AmtrakLKL said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six of the last twelve baggage cars have been released from Hialeah. Three deadheaded north on 98 yesterday and three more went north today.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, 11 have been released and they are heading north, west and south.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is south of Hialeah? :blink:
Click to expand...

I had the same thought. I'm guessing he means the Crescent (they have to come north to WAS to go back south).


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six of the last twelve baggage cars have been released from Hialeah. Three deadheaded north on 98 yesterday and three more went north today.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, 11 have been released and they are heading north, west and south.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is south of Hialeah? :blink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I had the same thought. I'm guessing he means the Crescent (they have to come north to WAS to go back south).
Click to expand...

Yeah specifically he means New Orleans by South - for assignment to the Sunset presumably. I suspect CONO has already got them out of Chicago.


----------



## west point

Easy.. Route the new bags (any of the 70 ) to CHI. Then City of New Orleans to NOL. add to sunset to LAX. Same time send last Sunset Heritage bags back to CHI on CNO. Then Heritage to Beech Grove. In one week all Sunset consists V-2s. Add V-2s to Chief as well.


----------



## afigg

edjbox said:


> “We’re really working hard to make sure we get the CAF (USA) deliveries for long-distance equipment,” Boardman said of Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, the passenger car maker with a factory in Elmira, N.Y. “We have all the baggage cars now, the dining cars are in the climate chamber, and then we move on to (the baggage dorms and sleepers).”
> 
> Statement from Joseph Boardman to trains magazine when discussing his retirement next year


If one or more of the dining cars are undergoing testing in the climate chamber, that could mean that they could be getting ready to send out one or two dining cars for testing and inspection in the near future. The first unit dining car along with a sleeper and bag-dorm went out for testing in the summer of 2014. The first dining car presumably underwent a long list of design changes and modifications; so I expect the first cars will have to undergo a repeated full round of testing by Amtrak.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Six of the last twelve baggage cars have been released from Hialeah. Three deadheaded north on 98 yesterday and three more went north today.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, 11 have been released and they are heading north, west and south.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What is south of Hialeah? :blink:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I had the same thought. I'm guessing he means the Crescent (they have to come north to WAS to go back south).
Click to expand...


You are spot on, Amtrak Blue. Some are headed for the Zephyr while others are getting in position for the Sunset.



west point said:


> Easy.. Route the new bags (any of the 70 ) to CHI. Then City of New Orleans to NOL. add to sunset to LAX. Same time send last Sunset Heritage bags back to CHI on CNO. Then Heritage to Beech Grove. In one week all Sunset consists V-2s. Add V-2s to Chief as well.


This doesn't make a lot of sense. Why are shipping the cars in the opposite direction and adding at least a day to their trip when you can cut them at WAS and add them to 19 on the same date?


----------



## Thirdrail7

afigg said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> “We’re really working hard to make sure we get the CAF (USA) deliveries for long-distance equipment,” Boardman said of Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, the passenger car maker with a factory in Elmira, N.Y. “We have all the baggage cars now, the dining cars are in the climate chamber, and then we move on to (the baggage dorms and sleepers).”
> 
> Statement from Joseph Boardman to trains magazine when discussing his retirement next year
> 
> 
> 
> If one or more of the dining cars are undergoing testing in the climate chamber, that could mean that they could be getting ready to send out one or two dining cars for testing and inspection in the near future. The first unit dining car along with a sleeper and bag-dorm went out for testing in the summer of 2014. The first dining car presumably underwent a long list of design changes and modifications; so I expect the first cars will have to undergo a repeated full round of testing by Amtrak.
Click to expand...


If nothing else, they may still need 125mph certification.


----------



## west point

One way to accomplish a reliable test is to run a regular consist with the test dinning car nest to the regular Heritage car. Use the test car to feed passengers and if any major failure move to the Heritage diner. Would suggest an extra crewman + mechanical person to verify test and any problems. Upon reflection maybe the way to test new sleepers as well. Run an un booked sleeper along with a test V-2 sleeper.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Steve4031 said:


> I believe it's a place where the cars are exposed to extreme climate conditions to make sure they can operate in these settings.


More extreme that then (warm) weather in Elmira, N.Y, right now?


----------



## Ryan

Unless the failure in question requires the car to be cut from the consist or a limited speed. Then it becomes a major hindrance.


----------



## Steve4031

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it's a place where the cars are exposed to extreme climate conditions to make sure they can operate in these settings.
> 
> 
> 
> More extreme that then (warm) weather in Elmira, N.Y, right now?
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that I said, "I believe".


----------



## neroden

There are photos somewhere of the climate chamber at CAF's Elmira facility; I remember seeing them. It can be used to generate hot, wet conditions, and it can be used to generate very cold, wet conditions. I don't know what other conditions it can generate. I'd presume it can generate "32 degree" ice-generating conditions. I don't know if it can generate very dry conditions, because nobody ever uses those for a photo showing off the climate chamber. ;-)


----------



## StriderGDM

My understanding is the climate chambers can even replicate dripping Mica Venom.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

From earlier news article : The CAF Elmira Heights facility now includes a climate room, where cars can be tested in extreme weather conditions. Previously, it had to ship cars out to Canada for such testing, which could delay the manufacturing schedule. 

"They control the humidity, the heat. They can even make it snow in the summer if they want to," Verdeja said. "You are more in charge of your destiny. You have the resources right there."


----------



## DSS&A

For general information, today's southbound Texas Eagle train No. 21 had one viewliner baggage car in its consist.


----------



## Bob Dylan

DSS&A said:


> For general information, today's southbound Texas Eagle train No. 21 had one viewliner baggage car in its consist.


Great news for the orphan Eagle which usually gets the oldest and most worn equipment!


----------



## TiBike

Are there any trains left with heritage bags?


----------



## CCC1007

I know the chief still had 1714 on Monday.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

I saw tonight that Viewliner ii No. 61051 is in Chicago Union Station on assignment through January 3rd on a Polar Express charter train. It is in the middle six Horizon coaches, 3 on each side. The train has locomotive No. 156, the 40th anniversary engine on the front. The old baggage platform on the south side of track No. 1 has been decorated for the festivities. Here's a link to the charter train website.

https://www.chicagothepolarexpressride.com/

So, Amtrak has enough baggage cars to spare one for charter excursion train service.


----------



## StanJazz

DSS&A said:


> Hi,
> 
> I saw tonight that Viewliner ii No. 61051 is in Chicago Union Station on assignment through January 3rd on a Polar Express charter train. It is in the middle six Horizon coaches, 3 on each side. The train has locomotive No. 156, the 40th anniversary engine on the front. The old baggage platform on the south side of track No. 1 has been decorated for the festivities. Here's a link to the charter train website.
> 
> https://www.chicagothepolarexpressride.com/
> 
> So, Amtrak has enough baggage cars to spare one for charter excursion train service.


Here is a picture I took on Sunday as I was boarding my Metra train home.




Also here is a picture of one of the OBS dressed as an elf.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

DSS&A said:


> I saw tonight that Viewliner ii No. 61051 is in Chicago Union Station on assignment through January 3rd on a Polar Express charter train. It is in the middle six Horizon coaches, 3 on each side.


I wonder why this train would have a Bag and why it splits the Coaches?


----------



## CCC1007

Present car?


----------



## MikefromCrete

Santa Claus headquarters


----------



## Andrew

StanJazz said:


> DSS&A said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I saw tonight that Viewliner ii No. 61051 is in Chicago Union Station on assignment through January 3rd on a Polar Express charter train. It is in the middle six Horizon coaches, 3 on each side. The train has locomotive No. 156, the 40th anniversary engine on the front. The old baggage platform on the south side of track No. 1 has been decorated for the festivities. Here's a link to the charter train website.
> 
> https://www.chicagothepolarexpressride.com/
> 
> So, Amtrak has enough baggage cars to spare one for charter excursion train service.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture I took on Sunday as I was boarding my Metra train home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC_0247e.jpg
> 
> Also here is a picture of one of the OBS dressed as an elf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DSC_0243e.jpg
Click to expand...

Does anyone know if it's true that Amtrak's Amfleet 2 replacement coaches will be very similar to the Viewliner 2?


----------



## CCC1007

How could anyone possibly know the shape of anything that has yet to be designed, much less ordered?

Keep in mind that there are multiple different ways that every future can occur.


----------



## west point

As has been reported Amtrak owns all of the designs for the V-2s. Does that mean the new coaches will be of the V-2s design ? That is hard to say. Since Siemens is building the AAF coaches that becomes a competitive design. However Amtrak has stated that it wants all sub systems to be compatible with the new V-2s The new bi-levels being built by NS was specified that way. As well the parts are to be modular as much as possible. Sort of plug and use.

Another point is Amtrak wants the maximum interior volume for its single level cars. That is the V-2 external profile. If another builder uses the V-2 design it might still build the external differently. Maybe fluted ? Similar due to profile ? Yes. Identical ? No

Certainly not the Amfleet tubes

Who will own the AAF car design ? anyone know ?


----------



## keelhauled

The AAF cars are a more or less off the shelf version of Siemens' Viaggio design, which has been built for operators in Isreal and Austria. I expect there are some modifications for US operations, but the basic design is Siemens.


----------



## neroden

I think the only thing we can say for sure is that the Amfleet II replacement will NOT have the tubular airline-imitation shape. They'll try to maximize use of space within the loading profile.


----------



## Andrew

Do you folks think that Amtrak will award the Amfleet 1 and 2 contracts at the same time? If so, do you guys think one company will get both contracts, and will Amtrak use a RRIF Loan to finance the contract?

I also wonder if the next-generation of Amfleet 1 and Amfleet 2 will look the same or different.


----------



## jis

No one can tell until a funding source can be identified to make a down payment on it. No one can tell what the design will be until an at least an RFI is issued. So you or anyone is free to let their imagination run wild for the time being.


----------



## Andrew

jis said:


> No one can tell until a funding source can be identified to make a down payment on it. No one can tell what the design will be until an at least an RFI is issued. So you or anyone is free to let their imagination run wild for the time being.


I can almost imagine Amtrak continuing with CAF for the Amfleet 2 coaches and Siemens for the Amfleet 1 replacement--similar to what happened with the Heathrow Express.


----------



## keelhauled

Everyone can imagine something. Personally I have visions (nightmares more like) of the Chinese government underbidding everyone else by miles. But what I can't imagine is an order coming before the Viewliner II line in Elmira has closed, which leaves CAF with no advantage and puts everyone back on a level playing field.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

As for what the coaches will look like, they may resemble the Viewliner I/IIs currently operating. I'm not really Houdini, but it's a wait and see for what will happen in the next few years.


----------



## west point

Andrew it is not replacements for Amfleet -1s and -2s separately. All the Amtrak fleet plans list just one type car to replace them. It will be the -2s first due to their mileage being 1.4 to 1.8 times that of -1s. Expect what -2s that have any life left to be first assigned to bulk out the NEC trains then go into a surge fleet. Of course there will be some -2s and then some -1s that will not make the cut and be retired / scrapped.


----------



## PVD

It would be a safe bet that a single car shell will emerge, with the interiors built so they can be switched from one service to another without a major job. Think seat tracks and movable passenger service units like the airliners use. Safe bet is up to date mechanicals, modern lighting and sound, larger or second row windows (car shell design dependent), Would not be surprised to see automatic doors across the board, that would make it easier to use a car in a different mode down the line. Items move from wish list to reality as their economic practicality (influence on maintenance and ops as well as passenger experience) is explored. What do people ( all stakeholders ) want in a single level railcar vs what is reasonably achievable. The FRA has been exempt from the "reasonably" part to some extent.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

If they do a Viewliner-type Coach I would guess there will be no upper tier windows as the luggage racks need to go there.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

neroden said:


> I think the only thing we can say for sure is that the Amfleet II replacement will NOT have the tubular airline-imitation shape. They'll try to maximize use of space within the loading profile.


I'm not as sure. I can certainly entertain that Amtrak would attempt to save some costs, and dust off the old Amfleet II prints.


----------



## PVD

Right about the upper windoes on VL shell coach. I was thinking food service/lounge/bc apps but didn';t say that.


----------



## jis

Since Amtrak does not "own" those Amfleet II prints I don't see how they can dust them off.


----------



## Hal

jis said:


> Since Amtrak does not "own" those Amfleet II prints I don't see how they can dust them off.


I think Bombardier owns them. They or someone else bought the prints from the Budd company.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Hal said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since Amtrak does not "own" those Amfleet II prints I don't see how they can dust them off.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Bombardier owns them. They or someone else bought the prints from the Budd company.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Amtrak (and the FRA?) set up committees that worked out the specifications for any new bi-level and single-level cars to get federal funds.

The bi-levels to come from Nippon Sharyo for the Midwest corridor trains will meet those new specs.

The new single-level cars coming from Siemens for Brightline/All Aboard Florida will meet the new Amtrak/FRA specs. Not sure what was in that for AAF, since no federal funds are involved. But the advantage to Siemens for having an open assembly line for compliant cars could be considerable going forward. Very "nice" for Siemens that a slightly modified off-the-European-shelf model meets the new American specs.

I don't know if any old plans meet the new specs. Don't know the level of detail involved. I've read that Amtrak played around with a mock-up coach version of the Viewliner shell. Maybe they can make that work, but I'd bet on new plans meeting the new specs for any new orders.


----------



## jis

Hal said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since Amtrak does not "own" those Amfleet II prints I don't see how they can dust them off.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Bombardier owns them. They or someone else bought the prints from the Budd company.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yep. Bombardier bought the entire lot from Budd when Budd got out of the business. I can't see Bombardier dusting them off when they have oodles of current production cars that they can offer that with minor modifications would meet the requirements of a modern passenger car, even in the US.


----------



## PVD

An additional question would be 40 years out, how much of the design is still under any type of IP protection, and were RTU's granted to Amtrak when they bought the original cars. It is not unusual in large scale contracting, particular government procurement, or a procurement where payment was made for research and development costs to grant permanent "Right to Use" on anything derived from that design work. While someone may "own' a design, they may have no power to stop someone else who has been granted those rights from using it. It has been a long time, not sure how much of the original anyone would really want anyway.


----------



## jis

Why on earth anybody except some select rail and specifically Budd foamers would want to produce more Amfleets of course is well beyond my imagination. I would strongly recommend defunding Amtrak if they are crazy enough to try to get someone to build more Amfleets. In terms of creature comforts they are inferior cars with an odd shape that does not take full advantage of the available loading gauge and that makes it impossible to fix some of the problems. They have served their purpose. Let us not try to perpetuate the mistakes of the 70s when everything had to look like an airliner fuselage.


----------



## PVD

The same folks will spend hours telling you why it was better when automobiles had bias ply tires, drum brakes on all 4, an AM radio, 2 or 3speed auto, and power steering that left you wondering where the road was. Sentimentality, and an unwillingness to acknowledge that it isn't 1965 anymore, nor will it be anytime soon.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep, no more Beer cans disguised as a Passenger Rail car!


----------



## TylerP42

Amtrak 29 will have deadhead Bag 61058 for LAX.


----------



## Andrew

I wonder if Amtrak were to place an order for new coaches, how long it would take all of them to enter revenue service.


----------



## CCC1007

Somewhere between 0 and infinity years.

The existing order was scheduled for four years, yet almost every contact like this slips on schedule, so a good estimate would be double the original contract timeline.


----------



## MikefromCrete

If Amtrak buys any more new cars from the slow-poke CAF assembly line, there's not a person alive today who will see the completed order.


----------



## neroden

WoodyinNYC said:


> I don't know if any old plans meet the new specs.


Not in detail, obviously, but that's not that important. Viewliner IIs are close enough for adaptation.
The new specs allow for a certain amount of body shape variation, but last time I looked at the spec, Amfleet/Metroliner tube shape would NOT be allowed by the spec.


----------



## Andrew

neroden said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if any old plans meet the new specs.
> 
> 
> 
> Not in detail, obviously, but that's not that important. Viewliner IIs are close enough for adaptation.
> The new specs allow for a certain amount of body shape variation, but last time I looked at the spec, Amfleet/Metroliner tube shape would NOT be allowed by the spec.
Click to expand...

Why is that the case?

I'd bet Siemens and Alstom both bid on the new Amfleet replacement.


----------



## CCC1007

They haven't bid on it because there is nothing to bid on yet. They are likely candidates to bid.


----------



## TylerP42

I feel like I'd like V2 coaches.


----------



## TylerP42

I talked to a conductor today and this is what he had to say about the V2 Baggage cars:

"The crews love the new baggage cars. It hasn't got cold enough to see how well they hold heat but so far the climate control in them is great. There has been some issues with crews properly taking the care to latch the doors closed properly."

also,

"It's very well lit and as comfortable climate wise as a coach. They seem to ride well. We had an issue with New York not using the new shelves for the baggage. There's still mixed reviews on the shelves. I think some might be too high, But overall it's a very improved design. I didn't get to work the old cars much but they were dirty. Leaked alot in rain. We're poorly lit."


----------



## jis

How can they be as happy as with climate control in Coaches when it does not have any A/C system?


----------



## neroden

Probably the new baggage cars are insulated and air-sealed. The old baggage cars were basically uninsulated and leaky. That's actually more important to climate control than having A/C or even heat.


----------



## neroden

TylerP42 said:


> " We had an issue with New York not using the new shelves for the baggage."


Sounds like some more training is needed.


----------



## Andrew

Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Andrew said:


> Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?


You would probably enjoy reading the old fleet plan documents under About Amtrak at Amtrak.com. Unless the old ones have scrolled off into eternity. At one point there was a long discussion of the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. (So I guess we can count on Congress to only authorize buying 50 a year in order to waste more money and blame it on Amtrak. LOL.)

Of course you didn't mean to ask what if Amtrak ordered hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once. No way will it order more Amfleets; they are finished. It will order Amfleet *replacements*. New single-level coaches, to be generic.

Anyway, this isn't like buying a new automobile, or a hundred, where you could go down to your Toyota or Chevy dealer and get a price (subject to haggling). For rail cars, there's no dealers, no windshield sticker prices. Amtrak invites bidders and collects a lot of bid prices before choosing to buy, or not to buy, from the lowest bidder.

So there isn't, and nobody has, a publicly disclosed price on a new single level car. And that gets back to, there's one price for 1 of them and a much lower price for 100 or 500 of them.

We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them. So we don't know much, except surely more than $2.3 million. Then remember that the CAF bid is 5 or 6 years old by now, and material costs have crept up, despite the sad shape of the economy.

There is the more recent order from Brightline All Aboard Florida for a few dozen coaches from Siemens. If they revealed the amount of the order, you can divide the total dollar amount by the number of coaches and have a good figure. But I don't recall that either party disclosed the value of the deal.

Why don't you go with ~$3 million per coach, as a back-of-the-envelop rough estimate. Then if ever a bid comes in for less, we'll all be happy.


----------



## Andrew

WoodyinNYC said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?
> 
> 
> 
> You would probably enjoy reading the old fleet plan documents under About Amtrak at Amtrak.com. Unless the old ones have scrolled off into eternity. At one point there was a long discussion of the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. (So I guess we can count on Congress to only authorize buying 50 a year in order to waste more money and blame it on Amtrak. LOL.)
> 
> Of course you didn't mean to ask what if Amtrak ordered hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once. No way will it order more Amfleets; they are finished. It will order Amfleet *replacements*. New single-level coaches, to be generic.
> 
> Anyway, this isn't like buying a new automobile, or a hundred, where you could go down to your Toyota or Chevy dealer and get a price (subject to haggling). For rail cars, there's no dealers, no windshield sticker prices. Amtrak invites bidders and collects a lot of bid prices before choosing to buy, or not to buy, from the lowest bidder.
> 
> So there isn't, and nobody has, a publicly disclosed price on a new single level car. And that gets back to, there's one price for 1 of them and a much lower price for 100 or 500 of them.
> 
> We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them. So we don't know much, except surely more than $2.3 million. Then remember that the CAF bid is 5 or 6 years old by now, and material costs have crept up, despite the sad shape of the economy.
> 
> There is the more recent order from Brightline All Aboard Florida for a few dozen coaches from Siemens. If they revealed the amount of the order, you can divide the total dollar amount by the number of coaches and have a good figure. But I don't recall that either party disclosed the value of the deal.
> 
> Why don't you go with ~$3 million per coach, as a back-of-the-envelop rough estimate. Then if ever a bid comes in for less, we'll all be happy.
Click to expand...

Your right. I meant Amfleet replacements...

Are you saying that you think a passenger coach would be priced differently than a sleeping car? Also, hopefully a company like Siemens, Bombardier, or Alstom, etc. would give Amtrak a huge discount if Amtrak ordered hundreds of new passenger coaches--instead of just dozens.


----------



## CCC1007

Andrew said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundred of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?
> 
> 
> 
> You would probably enjoy reading the old fleet plan documents under About Amtrak at Amtrak.com. Unless the old ones have scrolled off into eternity. At one point there was a long discussion of the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. (So I guess we can count on Congress to only authorize buying 50 a year in order to waste more money and blame it on Amtrak. LOL.)
> Of course you didn't mean to ask what if Amtrak ordered hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once. No way will it order more Amfleets; they are finished. It will order Amfleet *replacements*. New single-level coaches, to be generic.
> 
> Anyway, this isn't like buying a new automobile, or a hundred, where you could go down to your Toyota or Chevy dealer and get a price (subject to haggling). For rail cars, there's no dealers, no windshield sticker prices. Amtrak invites bidders and collects a lot of bid prices before choosing to buy, or not to buy, from the lowest bidder.
> 
> So there isn't, and nobody has, a publicly disclosed price on a new single level car. And that gets back to, there's one price for 1 of them and a much lower price for 100 or 500 of them.
> 
> We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them. So we don't know much, except surely more than $2.3 million. Then remember that the CAF bid is 5 or 6 years old by now, and material costs have crept up, despite the sad shape of the economy.
> 
> There is the more recent order from Brightline All Aboard Florida for a few dozen coaches from Siemens. If they revealed the amount of the order, you can divide the total dollar amount by the number of coaches and have a good figure. But I don't recall that either party disclosed the value of the deal.
> 
> Why don't you go with ~$3 million per coach, as a back-of-the-envelop rough estimate. Then if ever a bid comes in for less, we'll all be happy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your right. I meant Amfleet replacements...
> 
> Are you saying that you think a passenger coach would be priced differently than a sleeping car? Also, hopefully a company like Siemens, Bombardier, or Alstom, etc. would give Amtrak a huge discount if Amtrak ordered hundreds of new passenger coaches--instead of just dozens.
Click to expand...

yes, coaches are less complicated and therefore less expensive to build.


----------



## west point

There are major problems measuring purchase of equipment. The ACS-64s have a very long extended warranty that increased the capital costs but reduced the operating costs long term. The present mood in congress is for there to be at least an operating "profit".

How much of regular maintenance done by Amtrak on the ACS-64s is charged back to Siemens ? Any guess ?

The same warranty considerations may apply to the present V-2s as well. Anyone know ?

Now if new cars meet the same warranty requirements it will be interesting.

From what the RFP for the new Acella-2s says Amtrak is looking for an extended warranty as well.

At the quoted $3M per car it will take $300M capital appropriation per year to build the required 100 cars per year. How in the world can Amtrak even guarantee that $300M.


----------



## Andrew

west point said:


> There are major problems measuring purchase of equipment. The ACS-64s have a very long extended warranty that increased the capital costs but reduced the operating costs long term. The present mood in congress is for there to be at least an operating "profit".
> 
> How much of regular maintenance done by Amtrak on the ACS-64s is charged back to Siemens ? Any guess ?
> 
> The same warranty considerations may apply to the present V-2s as well. Anyone know ?
> 
> Now if new cars meet the same warranty requirements it will be interesting.
> 
> From what the RFP for the new Acella-2s says Amtrak is looking for an extended warranty as well.
> 
> At the quoted $3M per car it will take $300M capital appropriation per year to build the required 100 cars per year. How in the world can Amtrak even guarantee that $300M.


Well, if Amtrak ends up ordering HUNDREDS of new coaches, then I expect them to receive a large discount--thus reducing the price per coach to $2.5 million or even less, etc.

Also, Congress is (hopefully) going to reauthorize Amtrak so that it can reinvest NEC profits back into Gateway. If this occurs, Amtrak can take out a large RRIF Loan--with debt service beginning five years after all of the new coaches have entered service.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Andrew said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it likely for Amtrak to receive a discount if it orders hundreds of Amfleet coaches at once? Does anyone know what a typical coach today costs?
> 
> 
> 
> ... the economies of scale from ordering enuff to get 100 a year for 6 or 7 years, iirc. A lower rate than 100, the likely bidders had told Amtrak, would mean a higher cost per car. ...
> 
> ...
> 
> We know that the bid for the 130 assorted Viewliner IIs was ~$300 million, or $2.3 million each. But more than half of those were baggage cars, cheaper, and 25 were diners, very pricey, and 25 sleepers and 25 bag-dorms, and not a coach among them.
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you saying that you think a passenger coach would be priced differently than a sleeping car? Also, hopefully a company like Siemens, Bombardier, or Alstom, etc. would give Amtrak a huge discount if Amtrak ordered hundreds of new passenger coaches--instead of just dozens.
Click to expand...

Yes, different prices. Even without in-room toilets, the Viewliner sleepers will have plumbing to the wash basins; complicated seats that fold into beds and beds that fold down from the ceiling; showers in each car; etc. Different stuff from coaches, so different costs.

And yes, like almost every product, a volume discount applies. The fleet study suggested that the magic number for the cheapest unit price would be 100 coaches a year for 6 or 7 years. For small batches the cost goes up. If small batches weren't so costly and therefore wasteful, we'd have long ago seen Amtrak order another 50 or so single-level coaches. Amtrak could easily fill another 50 coaches on longer trains and perhaps add a couple of state-supported routes.

Buying a batch of Viewliner II sleepers and diners was worth doing because the sleepers are a high-mark-up product, and Amtrak only needs 100, or at the very most 200, for the Eastern LD routes. But if you need 700 coaches or more, buying them 50 or so from time to time is such a stupid policy that only a passenger-rail hating CongresssCritter could want to see it done that way, in order to sabotage Amtrak.


----------



## jis

Amtrak has already been reauthorized for five years. The next reauthorization is many years away.


----------



## Andrew

jis said:


> Amtrak has already been reauthorized for five years. The next reauthorization is many years away.


Are you referring to the Fast Act?

Amtrak has to apply for the new funding structure for FY 2017, so hopefully Amtrak can begin to reinvest their NEC profits back into Gateway in the near future.


----------



## jis

Yes. There is no further authorization involved. What Amtrak has to do is ask for annual appropriations. Usually appropriations never cover the entire amount that is authorized. Amtrak does not really get to change the funding structure by itself. OTOH Congress may change it to whatever it likes irrespective of what the authorization says, either explicitly or implicitly in the appropriation. As I have said before it will depend on if Congress appropriates enough to cover Amtrak's non-operational shared costs or not. If they do then NEC above the rail surpluses can go back to NEC. If not then NEC above the rail surpluses will still get used to fund Amtrak's shared costs.


----------



## west point

IMO and only mine it will not be replacements for Amfleet-1 & -2s separately. Amtrak will order the coaches in a modular form so seating can be changed as necessary. That being said the first ones will probably go to LD trains as the high mileage -2s need some TLC. Plus the LDs need many more coaches at some times.

As an example it may be that LD trains would get 100 new cars and maybe 50 would be refurbished and assigned to NEC & SD trains. And that ratio might continue with more cars. Any -1 & -2s assigned to west coast and CHI area may only stay there short term until the new Nippon High levels enter service. Just pure speculation


----------



## Amtrak172

With these new coaches you're talking about, is there something out there that they'll be based off of? Will they look similar to the Amfleets or Horizons? Or Viewliner?


----------



## keelhauled

There are two options, it seems to me. Either Amtrak will require bidders to use the Viewliner design, which they own, and stick coach seats inside, or they won't specify the design and will buy whatever their chosen bidder comes up with, which will presumably be as close to an existing overseas design as possible.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Since Viewliner seems to be a proven frame, I would venture to guess that will be the shell for any new Coaches. And that would make for matching set trains with all cars the same. Now let's talk about some Viewliner Sunview Lounges.....


----------



## Amtrak172

That being said though, there'd need to be Cafe cars.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

When money was flowing for passenger rail around 2009 or so, Amtrak (and the FRA?) set up committees that worked out the specifications for any new bi-level and single-level cars to get any federal funding in the future. Height, length, weight, crash-worthiness of course, door and window placement and operations, number of electric outlets, and many other details are covered by the specs. New specs were agreed before the order was made for the Nippon Sharyo bi-levels. Later the specs for the single-level cars were agreed to.

The new single-level cars that Brightline/All Aboard Florida is buying from Siemens will meet these new Amtrak/FRA specs. (AAF and Siemens said so with the purchase announcement.) Nicely for Siemens, the American design specs almost match an off-the-shelf model that Siemens sells in Europe.

Now Siemens will have an open assembly line in Sacramento making a compliant American version. So the AAF order covers some of Siemens set-up costs, giving them a real advantage over other bidders in any near-future round. The Siemens order from AAF could turn out to be the launch order for 700 Amtrak single-level coaches and cafe cars.

I've read that Amtrak played around with a mock-up coach version of the Viewliner shell. Maybe CAF can make that work with their open assembly line. But they'd have to meet the Amtrak/FRA specs.

Of course, any car maker can bid, and build a new plant or at least a new assembly line and train the employees. But those other bidders will be 6 months to a year behind the delivery date that Siemens and CAF could offer thanks to their open production lines.

Siemens in particular would seem able to spread its start-up costs over both whatever batch of coaches Amtrak might order and the few dozen cars it will build for AAF, allowing Siemens to make a lower bid. So while it could be anybody, bet on Siemens if any batch of 50 or even 700 replacements for Amfleets gets ordered in the next few years.


----------



## Andrew

jis said:


> Yes. There is no further authorization involved. What Amtrak has to do is ask for annual appropriations. Usually appropriations never cover the entire amount that is authorized. Amtrak does not really get to change the funding structure by itself. OTOH Congress may change it to whatever it likes irrespective of what the authorization says, either explicitly or implicitly in the appropriation. As I have said before it will depend on if Congress appropriates enough to cover Amtrak's non-operational shared costs or not. If they do then NEC above the rail surpluses can go back to NEC. If not then NEC above the rail surpluses will still get used to fund Amtrak's shared costs.


Do other agencies also not receive the money they ask for?

Then how would Amtrak help pay for new Baltimore and Gateway Tunnels?



WoodyinNYC said:


> When money was flowing for passenger rail around 2009 or so, Amtrak (and the FRA?) set up committees that worked out the specifications for any new bi-level and single-level cars to get any federal funding in the future. Height, length, weight, crash-worthiness of course, door and window placement and operations, number of electric outlets, and many other details are covered by the specs. New specs were agreed before the order was made for the Nippon Sharyo bi-levels. Later the specs for the single-level cars were agreed to.
> 
> The new single-level cars that Brightline/All Aboard Florida is buying from Siemens will meet these new Amtrak/FRA specs. (AAF and Siemens said so with the purchase announcement.) Nicely for Siemens, the American design specs almost match an off-the-shelf model that Siemens sells in Europe.
> 
> Now Siemens will have an open assembly line in Sacramento making a compliant American version. So the AAF order covers some of Siemens set-up costs, giving them a real advantage over other bidders in any near-future round. The Siemens order from AAF could turn out to be the launch order for 700 Amtrak single-level coaches and cafe cars.
> 
> I've read that Amtrak played around with a mock-up coach version of the Viewliner shell. Maybe CAF can make that work with their open assembly line. But they'd have to meet the Amtrak/FRA specs.
> 
> Of course, any car maker can bid, and build a new plant or at least a new assembly line and train the employees. But those other bidders will be 6 months to a year behind the delivery date that Siemens and CAF could offer thanks to their open production lines.
> 
> Siemens in particular would seem able to spread its start-up costs over both whatever batch of coaches Amtrak might order and the few dozen cars it will build for AAF, allowing Siemens to make a lower bid. So while it could be anybody, bet on Siemens if any batch of 50 or even 700 replacements for Amfleets gets ordered in the next few years.


Of course Siemens is a strong candidate for the new Amfleet coaches! Amtrak appears to be fond of Siemens' technology if you look at the orders for the Sprinter and Charger Locomotives, etc. Plus, Siemens would probably assemble the coaches in California, with some parts being assembled in Ohio, which I think could help Amtrak.

Since we are about to be in 2016, I'd bet that Amtrak places a new order for coaches within 2 to 4 years...Do you folks think Amtrak would order all 700 at once or maybe 150 Amfleet 2 replacements, and then the other 550 coaches?


----------



## Ryan

Andrew said:


> Do other agencies also not receive the money they ask for?


Yes, pretty much all of them.



Andrew said:


> Of course Siemens is a strong candidate for the new Amfleet coaches! Amtrak appears to be fond of Siemens' technology if you look at the orders for the Sprinter and Charger Locomotives


Q: What does the Charger locomotive order have to do with Amtrak's perceived fondness for a particular vendor?

A: NOTHING!


----------



## keelhauled

Ryan said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course Siemens is a strong candidate for the new Amfleet coaches! Amtrak appears to be fond of Siemens' technology if you look at the orders for the Sprinter and Charger Locomotives
> 
> 
> 
> Q: What does the Charger locomotive order have to do with Amtrak's perceived fondness for a particular vendor?A: NOTHING!
Click to expand...

I seem to remember an assertion that Siemens was the shoe-in for the Acela II order as well...not to mention that Amtrak hasn't ordered a single Charger yet.


----------



## Andrew

keelhauled said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course Siemens is a strong candidate for the new Amfleet coaches! Amtrak appears to be fond of Siemens' technology if you look at the orders for the Sprinter and Charger Locomotives
> 
> 
> 
> Q: What does the Charger locomotive order have to do with Amtrak's perceived fondness for a particular vendor?A: NOTHING!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I seem to remember an assertion that Siemens was the shoe-in for the Acela II order as well...not to mention that Amtrak hasn't ordered a single Charger yet.
Click to expand...

What single-level inter city coaches do Bombardier, Alstom or Kawasaki make?


----------



## CCC1007

Andrew said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course Siemens is a strong candidate for the new Amfleet coaches! Amtrak appears to be fond of Siemens' technology if you look at the orders for the Sprinter and Charger Locomotives
> 
> 
> 
> Q: What does the Charger locomotive order have to do with Amtrak's perceived fondness for a particular vendor?A: NOTHING!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I seem to remember an assertion that Siemens was the shoe-in for the Acela II order as well...not to mention that Amtrak hasn't ordered a single Charger yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What single-level inter city coaches do Bombardier, Alstom or Kawasaki make?
Click to expand...

the only reason they don't make them is because there haven't been any orders yet for them. If no one wants them, why make them?


----------



## jis

Time for you to start using Google and answer your own questions


----------



## TylerP42

Posted on Facebook today.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Any idea what the car right behind the Bag-Dorm is? Diner or Sleeper?


----------



## Ryan

Could be either. Both have the double row of Windows right up to the end of the car (no door).


----------



## TylerP42

Ryan said:


> Could be either. Both have the double row of Windows right up to the end of the car (no door).


 There's a door at the end of the bag dorm.


----------



## TylerP42

Ryan,


----------



## Ryan

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Any idea what the car right behind the Bag-Dorm is? Diner or Sleeper?





Ryan said:


> Could be either. Both have the double row of Windows right up to the end of the car (no door).


Thank you, Captain Obvious. That's not the car the Oly and I are talking about. We're talking about the one to the right.


----------



## TylerP42

Ryan said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea what the car right behind the Bag-Dorm is? Diner or Sleeper?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could be either. Both have the double row of Windows right up to the end of the car (no door).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, Captain Obvious. That's not the car the Oly and I are talking about. We're talking about the one to the right.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my bad. I totally missed Oly's post this morning. Anyways, my educated guess is a diner, since they're next to come out along with the bag dorms.


----------



## R30A

I see 5 cars
In order
Bag/Dorm, Undeterminable, NS engine, Bag/Dorm, Diner, Bag/Dorm


----------



## R30A

If Viewliner Is were up in Elmira, the car I labeled as a Diner could have been a sleeper. On the Viewliner IIs, there is no lower window for the shower module. (see the Bag Dorm next to it if you don't understand what I am saying.)


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Any idea when that photo was taken? There appears to be full baggage cars parked behind the NS loco and bag-dorm as you can see the roof vents in the background. The last baggage cars were delivered in November.


----------



## R30A

I had assumed it was two bag dorms back to back, but it does appear as if they are the same car.

Also- I doubt the leaves are that green in Elmira right now.


----------



## TylerP42

AmtrakLKL said:


> Any idea when that photo was taken? There appears to be full baggage cars parked behind the NS loco and bag-dorm as you can see the roof vents in the background. The last baggage cars were delivered in November.


 No idea. Saw it on facebook.


----------



## TylerP42

Looked back and couldn't find it...

http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html

Shows some good pictures and plans. My question though is, in the roomette, where are the temperature controls?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Upon further review, our "suspect" car on the far right isn't even on trucks; it is just a carcass being hauled.


----------



## TylerP42

Photo taken in August.


----------



## Viewliner

That has to be a diner. If it was a sleeper, there would not be the bottom window on that end of the car.


----------



## neroden

TylerP42 said:


> Looked back and couldn't find it...
> 
> http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html
> 
> Shows some good pictures and plans. My question though is, in the roomette, where are the temperature controls?


Betting on the "light bar". Look at the "roomette hard" photo.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

When should the Viewliner II diners start rolling out of the factory? As far as I've heard, all the baggage cars have been delivered and are now in service.


----------



## MikefromCrete

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> When should the Viewliner II diners start rolling out of the factory? As far as I've heard, all the baggage cars have been delivered and are now in service.


Nobody knows. Amtrak never announces anything until the cars are ready to roll out of the plant, or some railfan spies an Amtrak extra being sent to the plant to pick up the cars. The cars are far behind their original delivery dates and CAF seems incapable of producing anything on a timely basis. This includes non-Amtrak orders such as the Kansas City and Cincinnati streetcars.


----------



## jis

Hopefully before the end of this year


----------



## prewarlionelrailfan

What a stark contrast to the Brightline and Siemens operations. Bob Johnson's January 28, 2016 article entitled; _Siemens completes first car shell for Brightline_, contains a color photo of a finished shell of a car with people wearing yellow t-shirts waiving! What transperancy, and timely production. How exciting!


----------



## City of Miami

Low bid by CAF I assume.


----------



## Ryan

prewarlionelrailfan said:


> What a stark contrast to the Brightline and Siemens operations. Bob Johnson's January 28, 2016 article entitled; _Siemens completes first car shell for Brightline_, contains a color photo of a finished shell of a car with people wearing yellow t-shirts waiving! What transperancy, and timely production. How exciting!


Literally the first post in this thread was an article and pictures of the Viewliner order at a similar place.

Amtrak also had a nice blog post:

http://history.amtrak.com/blogs/blog/welcoming-the-next-generation-viewliner-II


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ryan said:


> prewarlionelrailfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a stark contrast to the Brightline and Siemens operations. …
> 
> 
> 
> ...Amtrak also had a nice blog post:
> 
> http://history.amtrak.com/blogs/blog/welcoming-the-next-generation-viewliner-II
Click to expand...

That Boardman-led video tour is why we haven't had any transparency on the CAF order since then. LOL. Dayum, Joe Boardman must cringe to think how he looks in retrospect, spouting the unfounded optimism, and promising delivery dates that soon went down the tubes.

So I don't blame him or CAF for running a very tight-lipped operation since then. Nothing he could have said could have helped matters, and anything he said would invite unkind references to that Pollyanna plant tour.

How can this be anything but a debacle for CAF? They can't make money on an order running years behind schedule. Losing money on every car built, they surely hoped for the 70-car option so they could make it up on volume. That's less and less likely with every passing day. Surely CAF hoped that their Viewliner II contract would give them a strong head start when bidding on a huge order for single-level coaches; not gonna happen.


----------



## neroden

CAF's problems were apparently mainly due to extreme difficulty hiring and training qualified staff in Elmira (particularly stainless steel welders) Assuming that that's been resolved.... honestly if I were Amtrak I probably *would* exercise the 70-car option order if CAF offered a good price.


----------



## PVD

With the downturn in oil, the availability of welders should improve. Many workers in the (shrinking) pool of skilled welders left their homes and went to work on oil field jobs where there skills were required. Some companies, schools, and governments are also joint sponsoring programs to teach production skills including welding and machinist skills where that education had been abandoned. I know CAF is involved (albeit late) in something like that.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Only shells are visible from the street. One dinner, the rest are full sleepers. Nothing else could be seen with out a drone or trespassing. 7 Feb 2016


----------



## warrenwarner

prewarlionelrailfan said:


> What a stark contrast to the Brightline and Siemens operations. Bob Johnson's January 28, 2016 article entitled; _Siemens completes first car shell for Brightline_, contains a color photo of a finished shell of a car with people wearing yellow t-shirts waiving! What transperancy, and timely production. How exciting!


What cars made by Siemens are you talking about it?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

CAF of Elmira, NY is making the new Virwliner 2 cars.


----------



## CCC1007

warrenwarner said:


> prewarlionelrailfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a stark contrast to the Brightline and Siemens operations. Bob Johnson's January 28, 2016 article entitled; _Siemens completes first car shell for Brightline_, contains a color photo of a finished shell of a car with people wearing yellow t-shirts waiving! What transperancy, and timely production. How exciting!
> 
> 
> 
> What cars made by Siemens are you talking about it?
Click to expand...

You haven't heard yet? The first shell for the all aboard Florida program are being produced.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

warrenwarner said:


> prewarlionelrailfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a stark contrast to the Brightline and Siemens operations. Bob Johnson's January 28, 2016 article entitled; _Siemens completes first car shell for Brightline_, contains a color photo of a finished shell of a car with people wearing yellow t-shirts waiving! What transperancy, and timely production. How exciting!
> 
> 
> 
> What cars made by Siemens are you talking about it?
Click to expand...

He states it in his post. The cars for Brightline trains coming to FL. http://www.allaboardflorida.com/


----------



## ParanoidAndroid

Personally, I hope the diners are delayed until 2017, since I haven't gotten a chance to ride a Heritage diner yet, and I'm interested in eating in one of them. I'm dreaming about a trip next winter involving the LSL.


----------



## Bob Dylan

maxbuskirk said:


> Personally, I hope the diners are delayed until 2017, since I haven't gotten a chance to ride a Heritage diner yet, and I'm interested in eating in one of them. I'm dreaming about a trip next winter involving the LSL.


You Sir, are a Minority of One!


----------



## neroden

There are basically two Heritage diner interiors. The Temoinsa rebuild interior, in green and pink, is kind of interesting. A photo, found on Google:

http://trainweb.org/amtrakpix/travelogues/101112A/532-0007.jpg

The non-rebuild interiors are dull as dirt and have absolutely no distinguishing features any more -- any original distinguishing features are long gone. They look like the Viewliner dining car, but without the second row of windows, with a low ceiling, and without any of the decorative lights. A photo, found on Google:

http://www.alternatewars.com/SDNTrashPix/E-Diner-1.jpg


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

maxbuskirk said:


> Personally, I hope the diners are delayed until 2017, since I haven't gotten a chance to ride a Heritage diner yet, and I'm interested in eating in one of them. I'm dreaming about a trip next winter involving the LSL.


Somewhere on line (and right off hand I cannot find my printout with the URL) there is a roster of Heritage Diner that shows the cars' history; two of them are original _*Silver *_cars from the CB&Q and likely spent many years running on the various_* Zephyrs*_. I find it a "bonus" to know the history of the particular Heritage Diner I am eating in.


----------



## R30A

There are 6 "Silvers" still running. 8502, 8504, 8510, 8531, 8532, 8551. 

(see here:http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-diners.shtml)
Silver Tureen was retired a while back. 8510 was previously the Silver (Chef or Cafe). 8551 was Silver diner. Don't remember off the top of my head about 8531/8532, but they were originally coaches, so the name would probably not be food related.


----------



## Amtrak172

Amtrak Viewliner I #62043 is fresh from Beech Grove wearing her new Phase III paint! It is going to me on the inspection train from NOL-JAX. 8400 "Indianapolis" is at Beech Grove now getting Phase III.


----------



## warrenwarner

Amtrak172 said:


> Amtrak Viewliner I #62043 is fresh from Beech Grove wearing her new Phase III paint! It is going to me on the inspection train from NOL-JAX. 8400 "Indianapolis" is at Beech Grove now getting Phase III.


Are there any more sleeping cars rolling out of the shop any time soon?


----------



## CCC1007

Not till after the diners and dorms. The 62043 is a viewliner 1 car.


----------



## jis

warrenwarner said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Viewliner I #62043 is fresh from Beech Grove wearing her new Phase III paint! It is going to me on the inspection train from NOL-JAX. 8400 "Indianapolis" is at Beech Grove now getting Phase III.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any more sleeping cars rolling out of the shop any time soon?
Click to expand...

Typically at least 5 (and possibly more) Viewliner Is are expected to go through POH at Beech Grove this year. Usually the financial reports have the information about expected numbers.


----------



## afigg

jis said:


> Typically at least 5 (and possibly more) Viewliner Is are expected to go through POH at Beech Grove this year. Usually the financial reports have the information about expected numbers.


There are 13 Viewliner Is scheduled for overhauls at Beech Grove in FY16. The normal number in recent years has been 12 ro 13 Viewliner Is per year, which works out to circa 4 year overhaul cycle with 50 Viewliner Is. So the Viewliner Is are now getting a new vinyl/paint job as part of the overhaul.
Meanwhile, the long wait for the release of the new diner cars drags on. and on...


----------



## warrenwarner

jis said:


> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Viewliner I #62043 is fresh from Beech Grove wearing her new Phase III paint! It is going to me on the inspection train from NOL-JAX. 8400 "Indianapolis" is at Beech Grove now getting Phase III.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any more sleeping cars rolling out of the shop any time soon?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Typically at least 5 (and possibly more) Viewliner Is are expected to go through POH at Beech Grove this year. Usually the financial reports have the information about expected numbers.
Click to expand...

Do you know if these viewliner I cars are being restored.updated.repaired at all or just painted?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

warrenwarner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warrenwarner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak Viewliner I #62043 is fresh from Beech Grove wearing her new Phase III paint! It is going to me on the inspection train from NOL-JAX. 8400 "Indianapolis" is at Beech Grove now getting Phase III.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any more sleeping cars rolling out of the shop any time soon?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Typically at least 5 (and possibly more) Viewliner Is are expected to go through POH at Beech Grove this year. Usually the financial reports have the information about expected numbers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you know if these viewliner I cars are being restored.updated.repaired at all or just painted?
Click to expand...

see the post above yours


----------



## jis

It is their standard periodic overhaul. Painting and getting name board is incidental. They don't go in just to get painted and get rechristened.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Amtrak172 said:


> Amtrak Viewliner I #62043 is fresh from Beech Grove wearing her new Phase III paint! It is going to me on the inspection train from NOL-JAX. 8400 "Indianapolis" is at Beech Grove now getting Phase III.


What does any of this (which has already been covered in the Phase III thread and 8400 thread) have to do with Viewliner IIs?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I realize this may have been covered earlier, but will the Viewliner 1 interiors eventually be upgraded to Viewliner 2? How much logistics work is involved in replumbing them (or actually deplumbing)?


----------



## Ryan

That is yet to be determined. Given their modular construction, it shouldn't be overly difficult, but the money needs to be there.


----------



## StanJazz

It could be much cheaper to just build the new toilet modules and weld the room toilet covers shut. In effect the old cars would be the same as the new ones for a lot less money.


----------



## Ryan

??? There are no toilet modules.

The whole room is a module. You just make more of the VL2 modules with whatever adaptations are needed (if any) so that they'll fit into a VL1 shell. Install them and cap the unused plumbing.


----------



## keelhauled

I think he means the bathroom modules that are going in the IIs to replace the in-room toilets.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

keelhauled said:


> I think he means the bathroom modules that are going in the IIs to replace the in-room toilets.


Basically, the bathroom module that is replacing the "SCA" module in the floor plans.


----------



## Ryan

Ok, that makes sense now.


----------



## warrenwarner

afigg said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typically at least 5 (and possibly more) Viewliner Is are expected to go through POH at Beech Grove this year. Usually the financial reports have the information about expected numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> There are 13 Viewliner Is scheduled for overhauls at Beech Grove in FY16. The normal number in recent years has been 12 ro 13 Viewliner Is per year, which works out to circa 4 year overhaul cycle with 50 Viewliner Is. So the Viewliner Is are now getting a new vinyl/paint job as part of the overhaul.
> Meanwhile, the long wait for the release of the new diner cars drags on. and on...
Click to expand...

According to the financial reports, are there any other cars or locomotives being overhauled or restored? Where does one view the FY16?


----------



## afigg

warrenwarner said:


> According to the financial reports, are there any other cars or locomotives being overhauled or restored? Where does one view the FY16?


All of the rolling stock, if it is to stay in service, undergo overhauls on a regular basis. Typical cycle appears to be about every 4 to 5 years for the rolling stock. The Amfleet Is and IIs are overhauled at Bear; the Superliners, Surfliners, Horizons, Viewliners at Beech Grove.

The Chief Mechanical Officer report in the Monthly Performance Reports lists how many cars are planned to undergo level 1 or 2 overhauls for the Fiscal Year and how many have been year-to-date & how many were completed for the month. The Monthly reports can be found on the Reports and Documents webpage.

With regard to the diner cars, the overhauls were ended on the Heritage diner cars several years ago. So the Heritage diner cars are staying in service with no overhauls while waiting for the Viewliner II diner cars to show up.


----------



## TylerP42

It's V-1, but a diner so I thought I'd post it here. Via Facebook.

[*Admin note*: Photo removed as permission was not obtained prior to posting.]


----------



## Amtrak172

I posted that Hahahaha


----------



## jis

TylerP42 said:


> It's V-1, but a diner so I thought I'd post it here. Via Facebook.


Yup. That is Indianapolis out shopped from overhaul in Phase IIIb.


----------



## TylerP42

Amtrak172 said:


> I posted that Hahahaha


Hope it's OK that I reposted it.


----------



## jebr

The photo has been removed, as proper permission was not obtained prior to posting.

Photos that are not property of the poster should only be linked to, not embedded or posted directly into the forum. If they are reposted here, the source should be linked and explicit permission needs to be obtained (or the copyright holder must have waived rights for reposting in the source page linked,) as reposting a photo does not fall under fair use.


----------



## Amtrak172

TylerP42 said:


> Amtrak172 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I posted that Hahahaha
> 
> 
> 
> Hope it's OK that I reposted it.
Click to expand...

Yeah! I don't mind! I didn't take the pic, my friend did


----------



## Acela150

jebr said:


> The photo has been removed, as proper permission was not obtained prior to posting.
> 
> Photos that are not property of the poster should only be linked to, not embedded or posted directly into the forum. If they are reposted here, the source should be linked and explicit permission needs to be obtained (or the copyright holder must have waived rights for reposting in the source page linked,) as reposting a photo does not fall under fair use.


Really? What is AU now a billion dollar company that someone would sue over a photo?


----------



## jis

Could the moderators please provide the acceptable forms that need to be filled, notarized and filed with them? I have a photo taken by a friend of mine to post. Thanks


----------



## jebr

jis said:


> Could the moderators please provide the acceptable forms that need to be filled, notarized and filed with them? I have a photo taken by a friend of mine to post. Thanks


I'll admit that I may have been a tad too "formal" with my response. If it's something that you have permission to post and isn't posted elsewhere, a direct post with credit is fine. However, if it's something that's posted elsewhere, please simply link to that other post unless you have permission to repost it here. (Even then, a link back to the original post should be done.)

That being said, as soon as we hear or see something where the photo (or other content) was embedded without permission from the content owner, we will remove it. The poster is welcome to post a link to the original content even after that point for people to reference and look at.

My concern is that there are many people, both amateurs and professionals, that post online on specific platforms but do not wish for their content to be re-used beyond those platforms. Whatever the reason for doing so (monetization on specific platforms, preference on how the photo is shown or what context it's shown in, or any other reason) we need to respect that. Frankly, we don't have time to trace down every photo and ensure it makes the cut and is okay to post, which is why it's best to link to the original content if it's not one's own. In this case, when it became clear that prior permission was not given for posting the photo, we removed the photo. TylerP42, Amtrak172, or anyone else is welcome to link to the photo (or embed it again if the photo owner is okay with that.)


----------



## jis

I think we agree on the principles, so let us let it rest. I was just pulling your leg regarding the "formal tone".

I would just add that in the social medium environment, when a photo is posted say on Facebook in an open forum, there is relatively low risk in linking to it or even embedding it (but not uploading it into our server) with acknowledgement of origin. Again it needs to be a judgement call that can be made based on a short conversation with the poster if necessary. If there is no acknowledgement of source then it is a problem, and worthy of handling more strictly.


----------



## Palmetto

So, what's the status of the photo here? I'd like to see it, if possible.


----------



## jis

This is for information only, and your ability to access the photo is not guaranteed. Here is a link to the photo in question on Facebook. I believe its access rights are public so you should be able to view it as long as you have access to Facebook. If not, well... I can't help.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jebr said:


> I'll admit that I may have been a tad too "formal" with my response. If it's something that you have permission to post and isn't posted elsewhere, a direct post with credit is fine. However, if it's something that's posted elsewhere, please simply link to that other post unless you have permission to repost it here. (Even then, a link back to the original post should be done.)


Is a link that's imbedded between img tags OK? An actual copy of the photo is still not attached to the post, nor stored at AU.


----------



## jebr

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> jebr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll admit that I may have been a tad too "formal" with my response. If it's something that you have permission to post and isn't posted elsewhere, a direct post with credit is fine. However, if it's something that's posted elsewhere, please simply link to that other post unless you have permission to repost it here. (Even then, a link back to the original post should be done.)
> 
> 
> 
> Is a link that's imbedded between img tags OK? An actual copy of the photo is still not attached to the post, nor stored at AU.
Click to expand...

If the photo owner is okay with it, sure. Still link to the original source, though, so that people can get additional context if they wish.


----------



## JohannFarley

8400 is looking great! I can't wait to see Phase III rolling for the first time for me (since I was born just too late to remember seeing it when I was young)


----------



## Palmetto

Welcome aboard, Johann!


----------



## JohannFarley

Thanks Palmetto!


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Here's a link to an article with photos of the Gulf Coast inspection train today with diner 8400 and a Viewliner 1 sleeper.

http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2016/02/after_10_years_amtrak_returns.html#incart_river_home


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

What's the likelihood of 8400 or another viewliner getting an interior set up to be used as an expanded cafe? If the Star is permanently dinerless an improved Viewliner cafe would be a good move.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> What's the likelihood of 8400 or another viewliner getting an interior set up to be used as an expanded cafe? If the Star is permanently dinerless an improved Viewliner cafe would be a good move.


It's probably been discussed by Amtrak execs and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Viewliner II diners are actually delivered as "super cafe cars." Of course, this would mean that CAF would actually have to complete the cars and deliver them to Amtrak sometime in the next decade or so.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

MikefromCrete said:


> Of course, this would mean that CAF would actually have to complete the cars and deliver them to Amtrak sometime in the next decade or so.


You're always the optimist.


----------



## Thirdrail7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cmv58lTWgU

h34r: Roughly.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cmv58lTWgU
> 
> h34r: Roughly.


:wub:


----------



## Ryan




----------



## Palmetto

You guys are hilarious! Ooooh! Ooooh! I'm taking the Crescent at the end of July. I hope there's a new diner on it!


----------



## warrenwarner

Have the 25 sleeping cars been delivered yet? Where do they go? Does anyone know what they look like inside? What type of changes did they make, if any? Any pictures of the interior?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

warrenwarner said:


> Have the 25 sleeping cars been delivered yet? Where do they go? Does anyone know what they look like inside? What type of changes did they make, if any? Any pictures of the interior?


Sleepers are last. It seems the diners will start to be delivered in about a month.

You can get an idea here for the interior.

http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html


----------



## Ryan

No. Everything we know is in this thread.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> No. Everything we know is in this thread.


Let's be real... Do you want to read through 130 pages of foam?


----------



## TommyBNSF

Acela150 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Everything we know is in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be real... Do you want to read through 130 pages of foam?
Click to expand...

Quick rundown, all 70 baggage cars delivered, 1st Bag Dorm, Diner, and Sleeper were sent out, tested, and are back at CAF for modifications; no new diners, sleepers, or bag dorms are in operation yet.


----------



## Palmetto

Thanks for the re-cap.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

TommyBNSF said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. Everything we know is in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be real... Do you want to read through 130 pages of foam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quick rundown, all 70 baggage cars delivered, 1st Bag Dorm, Diner, and Sleeper were sent out, tested, and are back at CAF for modifications; no new diners, sleepers, or bag dorms are in operation yet.
Click to expand...

And then there's post #2589 up above ...


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Post #2,600 and still no end in sight!


----------



## Brian Battuello

Backed into Chicago last Saturday on the Zephyr past many dozens of the old baggage cars. Wish I'd run a video of them all!


----------



## Palmetto

Some of those still have a future, as long as the CN insists on a minimum axle count to shunt all their CTC circuits. For some weird reason, this problem exists only on the CN, and it apparently exists on the tracks in Canada as well, where they're testing RDCs out of London, ON.


----------



## Brian Battuello

One use could be spare parts for private rail cars. Until they were retired, the baggage trucks (wheel structures) were certified for passenger train use, so perhaps they could be fitted to historic private cars. Of course, knowing Amtrak, they'd probably refuse to sell them.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Brian Battuello said:


> One use could be spare parts for private rail cars. Until they were retired, the baggage trucks (wheel structures) were certified for passenger train use, so perhaps they could be fitted to historic private cars. Of course, knowing Amtrak, they'd probably refuse to sell them.


Amtrak is on the record stating that there will be nothing but recycled scrap and unusable debris coming from those cars.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Brian Battuello said:


> Of course, knowing Amtrak, they'd probably refuse to sell them.


I haven't seen Amtrak selling anything on eBay for a while now. I wonder if that "experiment" failed?


----------



## R30A

Devil's Advocate said:


> Brian Battuello said:
> 
> 
> 
> One use could be spare parts for private rail cars. Until they were retired, the baggage trucks (wheel structures) were certified for passenger train use, so perhaps they could be fitted to historic private cars. Of course, knowing Amtrak, they'd probably refuse to sell them.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak is on the record stating that there will be nothing but recycled scrap and unusable debris coming from those cars.
Click to expand...

Amtrak is on the record stating that they will evaluate each car as to what they will do with them. They have already put up parts from the center door baggage cars for sale, which are the ones they stated they will scrap all of.


----------



## neroden

Selling parts is normal when scrapping. I think Amtrak doesn't want those damaged frames and bodyshells coming back, but they couldn't care less if people buy parts.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

All shells have been completed. A batch will be released in April for testing, both testing testing, and testing in revenue testing.

ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> All shells have been completed. A batch will be released on April, for testing, both in service, and regular testing.


Good news indeed!
Now once Boardman is gone we need to campaign to undo some of his more egregious anti-passenger acts.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The crew cars will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other cars have not been assigned yet.

Per ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The crew cars 5 will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other 5 cars have not been assigned.


Nomically they'd haveonly three more available for daily service with 2 for servicing and reserve, which makes it hard to assign it to any other single level train, each of which that remain requiring 4. I suppose something like CONO is a possibility, thus releasing all rooms in the Trans Dorm for revenue passengers. But I guess that is way more radical than what Amtrak can handle.  .


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The crew cars 5 will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other 5 cars have not been assigned.
> 
> 
> 
> Nomically they'd haveonly three more available for daily service with 2 for servicing and reserve, which makes it hard to assign it to any other single level train, each of which that remain requiring 4. I suppose something like CONO is a possibility, thus releasing all rooms in the Trans Dorm for revenue passengers. But I guess that is way more radical than what Amtrak can handle.  .
Click to expand...

They can go on the new SL East, right? J/K


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The crew cars 5 will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other 5 cars have not been assigned.
> 
> 
> 
> Nomically they'd haveonly three more available for daily service with 2 for servicing and reserve, which makes it hard to assign it to any other single level train, each of which that remain requiring 4. I suppose something like CONO is a possibility, thus releasing all rooms in the Trans Dorm for revenue passengers. But I guess that is way more radical than what Amtrak can handle.  .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They can go on the new SL East, right? J/K
Click to expand...

Which of course is as likely as not to be a CONO extension.

If it is a self standing single level national network train INOL - ORL is 770 miles) then yes, it would be a candidate.


----------



## R30A

Now this is wholly speculation on my part, but if we do end up seeing some sort of NOL-JAX service returning, I see it being superliners, with those Superliners coming from the Capitol. The Capitol, either as a viewliner or superliner train, I think would be the most likely third line to see the bagdorms.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

R30A said:


> Now this is wholly speculation on my part, but if we do end up seeing some sort of NOL-JAX service returning, I see it being superliners, with those Superliners coming from the Capitol. The Capitol, either as a viewliner or superliner train, I think would be the most likely third line to see the bagdorms.


The leading plan for Gulf Coast service is to extend the _City of New Orleans._ In New Orleans, some Superliners will be separated and sent to Florida, while others will overnight and go back to Chicago. So the longer route will require two more, if smaller, sets of equipment.

A secondary option would add a shuttle New Orleans-Mobile that would use Horizon equipment.

Amtrak was looking to gain back a small number of Superliners from California and the Midwest (at least in winter) when the bi-levels arrive from Nippon-Sharyo. But see other thread.


----------



## Palmetto

I have a problem with "shuttle" as it pertains to operations. It reminds me of the NYC subway leaving Grand Central for the West Side. It's a matter of terminology, I guess, since the term "Springfield shuttle" is used pretty readily.


----------



## Paulus

Unsurprisingly, Amtrak OIG thinks that the Viewliner II order is a complete cluster


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The biggest cluster is the ADA bedroom bathroom. Big redesign. The door is now motorized, the sink is relocated to outside of the bathroom module. Weird set up now. You roll into the bathroom door area and press the button. The curve wall rotates around the person exposing the head. Sure hope there space for a wheel chair, and a standing person to assist them. No idea how your going to access the room if there a issue.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Paulus said:


> Unsurprisingly, Amtrak OIG thinks that the Viewliner II order is a complete cluster


Amtrak and CAF had been keeping their secrets. Now this OIG report is like the Pentagon Papers (OK, I'm old. LOL) and all the dirty secrets are out. Depressing reading, again like the Pentagon Papers' report on the Vietnam War.

A few items: *Delays will continue*. The costs will exceed budgeted amounts by at least $7 million. CAF already expects a $41 million loss on the contract, and it's propping up a major supplier that has severe financial woes. Hundreds of defects were found on every batch of baggage cars and all the prototypes. The bag cars were accepted with many defects, but those having to do with the "look and feel" were waived, while safety issues took priority. That was followed up with work at Hialeah, and more work back in Elmira. Amtrak expects to accept the remaining cars with many defects, making modifications over the next year or two after acceptance. And did I say, *Delays will continue*.

The delays will cost Amtrak $2.9 million of maintenance expense on the old equipment while waiting for the new cars. The Marketing Dept expects an additional $800,000 in revenue from the new cars once in service. So the delays are costing Amtrak $3.7 million or more. Did I mention, *Delays will continue*.

The matter doesn't seem to have degenerated to the kind of Bombardier/Acela blame-laying fuss fest, not yet. Of course, we're only hearing Amtrak's side of the story. But obviously, no one involved in this tale has anything to be happy about.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

An additional $800,000 in revenue from the new cars? Could that be correct? I'd expected at least $800,000 less in operating losses . . . well, this paragraph (page 9) confused me.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Well isn't this Special!

We're Shocked, Shocked! to find out this information as Government Contracts are usually completed early and under or on budget!


----------



## Palmetto

What a mess. The second SNAFU for equipment production in 6 months or so. Foreign is better? Kinda sorry we lost the likes of Brill, Pullman, St. Louis Car and Budd. [Did I miss any?!]


----------



## jis

There seems to be the same underlying theme of poor project management with no clear line of responsibility and no point where "the buck stops". It is as if repeatedly the same setup or variations of it, are put in place so as to make sure no one is ultimately accountably responsible for anything. Same story on the NJ HSR.

Glad to learn that they are trying something hopefully better on Gateway, though the primary manager of that is not Amtrak but a subsidiary of the PA of NY and NJ. That has every potential of becoming a $20 billion CF.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Glad to learn that they are trying something hopefully better on Gateway, though the primary manager of that is not Amtrak but a subsidiary of the PA of NY and NJ. That has every potential of becoming a $20 billion CF.



Potential????


----------



## PaulM

Well, at least this should stop the debate as to whether the slippage was due to the manufacturer's short comings or Amtrak asking to slow delivery because of cash flow problems.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


>


Better get your non-slip shoes ready if you're going to be anywhere near the NEC next week.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The crew cars 5 will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other 5 cars have not been assigned.
> 
> 
> 
> Nomically they'd haveonly three more available for daily service with 2 for servicing and reserve, which makes it hard to assign it to any other single level train, each of which that remain requiring 4. I suppose something like CONO is a possibility, thus releasing all rooms in the Trans Dorm for revenue passengers. But I guess that is way more radical than what Amtrak can handle.  .
Click to expand...

Broadway Limited. 

Regarding the OIG report:

We already knew that CAF was having serious trouble getting appropriately skilled labor; they weren't ready to train the workers from the level of knowledge the available workers started with. I was told a while back (paraphrasing) "They can't find anyone who can read a blueprint". CAF's attempt to set up a factory in Elmira has gone very badly. Cincinnati will probably be dealing with similar problems with the streetcars they're getting from CAF, and I doubt they're inspecting them as carefully as Amtrak is. I wonder how much effort CAF will put into making this facility functional; it's really a question of how much the parent company cares about getting into the US market.

I would love to know which key supplier is financially unstable, which the OIG does *not* name. I really hope it isn't RailPlan, which had a pretty good reputation. Hopefully it's someone else, for whom alternative suppliers exist.

I am not as concerned as the OIG is about Amtrak's costs, given that CAF is clearly going to have to eat nearly all the excess costs due to CAF's own incompetence, and is likely to end up paying substantial liquidated damages. The increased operating losses due to continuing to operate Heritage cars are more concerning.

CAF's "losses" on the contract are due to not realizing that they had to spend a bunch of money upfront to train a lot of workers from scratch. I don't think it's realistic on the part of CAF to attribute that cost to this contract. I could say that Amtrak is being very helpful to CAF by doing their quality inspection and worker evaluations for them. :side-eye:

Further point:

All carshells are complete according to Brian Gallagher at ESPA/NARP 2016 meeting. Hopefully that means the main stainless-steel-welding problems at CAF have been solved.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> Further point:
> 
> All carshells are complete according to Brian Gallagher at ESPA/NARP 2016 meeting. Hopefully that means the main stainless-steel-welding problems at CAF have been solved.


I would hope so, since if it is not, we are in way deeper **** than anyone had imagined.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> Regarding the OIG report:
> 
> We already knew that CAF was having serious trouble getting appropriately skilled labor; they weren't ready to train the workers from the level of knowledge the available workers started with. I was told a while back (paraphrasing) "They can't find anyone who can read a blueprint". CAF's attempt to set up a factory in Elmira has gone very badly. . . . I wonder how much effort CAF will put into making this facility functional; . . . how much the parent company cares about getting into the US market.
> 
> . . .
> 
> CAF's "losses" on the contract are due to not realizing that they had to spend a bunch of money upfront to train a lot of workers from scratch. . . .


This makes me nervous about Alstom's plan to build Acela IIs in Hornell, N.Y., up the road a bit from Elmira.

Maybe not. Don't see Nippon-Sharyo blaming their yuge mess on unskilled workers.


----------



## edjbox

Did Alstom actually get the contract or was it announced too soon unofficially?


----------



## jfandre

Ok, I'm new around here and I'm a bit confused. I read the IG report linked to above, and I have no idea why this CAF is depending on an unstable supplier. Also, what happens when these cars get older and need replacement parts?


----------



## PVD

Railcar work in Hornell is not a new thing, Just the companies keep changing. Also, the downturn in the oil fields will make skilled welders and machinists more available everywhere.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

edjbox said:


> Did Alstom actually get the contract or was it announced too soon unofficially?


No but the senior senator from NY has announced a winner, ok course he did not ask Amtrak first.


----------



## Seaboard92

Here is my question will the first batch of cars go to Florida like the first baggage cars did on a special movement. I regret not seeing thag


----------



## neroden

Hornell is an existing factory with existing employees even though the name on the door keeps changing. The promise to "hire 400 new employees" for the work may be difficult... but the existing employees at least are a known quantity. CAF was hiring from scratch.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Seaboard92 said:


> Here is my question will the first batch of cars go to Florida like the first baggage cars did on a special movement. I regret not seeing thag


The next batch is indeed going to Hialeah,


----------



## neroden

A matter of curiosity: do the trains coming from CAF with Amtrak cars come out of the track running along the east side of the factory (former DL&W IIRC), or the one running along the west side of the factory (former Erie IIRC)? It seems to have connections on both sides.


----------



## Seaboard92

Third Rail are they riding on the back of 97 or are they taking a twenty car special like the baggage cars did once.


----------



## me_little_me

Thank goodness the airlines are not buying stuff like this. There might be crashes! :giggle:


----------



## edjbox

Any date on the diners yet?

the report says February but now that's passed


----------



## AmtrakBlue

edjbox said:


> Any date on the diners yet?
> 
> the report says February but now that's passed


http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45804-viewliner-ii-production-status-photos/page-132&do=findComment&comment=651397


----------



## rrdude

7 years to deliver 130 cars, that is just so laughable, that it's not.


----------



## jis

It may actually be a candidate for consideration by the Guinness Book of World Records and find a place in their museum!


----------



## OBS

No need to worry, President Trump is going to "fix" all these problems...LOL...Oh, sorry, wrong thread...LOL


----------



## Thirdrail7

Seaboard92 said:


> Third Rail are they riding on the back of 97 or are they taking a twenty car special like the baggage cars did once.


If all goes according to plan, they will go solo. It is a quick round trip.


----------



## TylerP42

Thirdrail7 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Third Rail are they riding on the back of 97 or are they taking a twenty car special like the baggage cars did once.
> 
> 
> 
> If all goes according to plan, they will go solo. It is a quick round trip.
Click to expand...

Will it be delivered on the Cap or LSL? or Cardinal?


----------



## CCC1007

They're heading south, not west Tyler.


----------



## TylerP42

CCC1007 said:


> They're heading south, not west Tyler.


 Understood, but how will they get there?


----------



## CCC1007

Special move like the others I would guess.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

TylerP42 said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They're heading south, not west Tyler.
> 
> 
> 
> Understood, but how will they get there?
Click to expand...

If they're going to the Viewliner home base in Hialeah, reckon they'll follow the Silvers' route.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail, is the plan to send them altogether in a set of special moves from Sunnyside to Hialeah? Or will they be sent in groups of five or so tacked onto 97?

Naturally they will be moved from CAF to Sunnyside by special moves.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Thirdrail, is the plan to send them altogether in a set of special moves from Sunnyside to Hialeah? Or will they be sent in groups of five or so tacked onto 97?
> 
> Naturally they will be moved from CAF to Sunnyside by special moves.


I took his post, http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45804-viewliner-ii-production-status-photos/page-133&do=findComment&comment=651850, as saying all will go down together as a special move.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail, is the plan to send them altogether in a set of special moves from Sunnyside to Hialeah? Or will they be sent in groups of five or so tacked onto 97?
> 
> Naturally they will be moved from CAF to Sunnyside by special moves.
> 
> 
> 
> I took his post, http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45804-viewliner-ii-production-status-photos/page-133&do=findComment&comment=651850, as saying all will go down together as a special move.
Click to expand...

I read that and thought it is ambiguous. That is why I asked the specific question.


----------



## TylerP42

I'm dumb... sorry.. I was tired and I think I was thinking they were coming from west of Toledo...


----------



## TylerP42

When do you think they will enter regular service?


----------



## CCC1007

Call it about a month...


----------



## WoodyinNYC

TylerP42 said:


> I'm dumb... sorry.. I was tired and I think I was thinking they were coming from west of Toledo...


West of Toledo is the Nippon Sharyo assembly plant in Illinois, where they planned to be building new bi-levels for the Midwest and California corridors.

Apparently that order is so messed up we can look at this CAF order -- Amtrak has got half of it in service already -- and say it's not so bad.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I think some of you are getting the wrong impression. The "original three" will emerge for testing and return to the factory once testing is completed.

This isn't a revenue release.


----------



## CCC1007

Finally!!!


----------



## MikefromCrete

Gee, I thought some cars were actually going to be put in revenue service. I would think CAF will never get another order from Amtrak. I can't remember any equipment order that has been handled as bad as this one. Let's hope Nippon Sharyo gets its act together and actually gets the new double-deckers built.


----------



## afigg

Thirdrail7 said:


> I think some of you are getting the wrong impression. The "original three" will emerge for testing and return to the factory once testing is completed.
> 
> This isn't a revenue release.


Now this makes sense. Got to retest the three first unit car types for all the design changes and defect repairs since they were sent out for testing and the baggage cars were delivered & fixed (and the defects that have not yet been fixed).
With the constant string of delays in the CAF production, would not put any money down on the diner cars all being delivered by July 2016, which is the most recent schedule in the OIG report.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thirdrail7 said:


> I think some of you are getting the wrong impression. The "original three" will emerge for testing and return to the factory once testing is completed.
> 
> This isn't a revenue release.


Brian Gallagher at ESPA/NARP 2016 meeting stated cars were coming for both testing-testing, and testing in service.

Don't have a chip in this game, but he was quite clear on this. Of course my timetable, Amtrak timetable, your timetable, not always the same definition, of course.


----------



## neroden

Brian Gallagher did, however, also say *April*, which I noted at the time as not being March.  So he may well have been referring to a different and later release from the factory.


----------



## keelhauled

How does that make sense though? To send the prototypes out for testing but then release production versions a month later? I can't imagine they would be able to identify and fix any problems that quickly, unless they're certain it's only minor details left.

The other possibility I guess is that the prototypes are tested in revenue service?


----------



## neroden

keelhauled said:


> How does that make sense though? To send the prototypes out for testing but then release production versions a month later? I can't imagine they would be able to identify and fix any problems that quickly, unless they're certain it's only minor details left.


Maybe they are, in fact, optimistic that it's only minor details left. They have had a lot of time to correct problems so far, after all, and I think that's an understatement.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Since these are diners, I imagine they'll be wanting to test cooking, serving, etc while "on the rails", so doing it in revenue service may be the best way to handle this.


----------



## west point

Easy way to test. Just put a new diner and heritage diner back to back on test train.. Then if any serious failure staff can go to Heritage diner. Would image at least one extra OBS in diner to document problems and help move to heritage if needed.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some of you are getting the wrong impression. The "original three" will emerge for testing and return to the factory once testing is completed.
> 
> This isn't a revenue release.
> 
> 
> 
> Brian Gallagher at ESPA/NARP 2016 meeting stated cars were coming for both testing-testing, and testing in service.
> Don't have a chip in this game, but he was quite clear on this. Of course my timetable, Amtrak timetable, your timetable, not always the same definition, of course.
Click to expand...

You forgot one thing and that is CAF's timetable.


----------



## jis

Yup. At the end of the day even good old Brian can't do much about the CAF timetable without expending a lot of energy that is.


----------



## Brian Battuello

FWIW, picked up the lovely spouse off the Lake Shore Limited southbound in Croton-on-Hudson yesterday. New baggage car up front, three sleepers, a heritage diner in the middle of the train as usual, cafe, a bunch of coaches and good ol' 8400 riding along at the end, looking really pretty.

i wonder if my kids will ever see an all-Viewliner train?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

jis said:


> Yup. At the end of the day even good old Brian can't do much about the CAF timetable without expending a lot of energy that is.


One thinks that it should be someone who is expending a lot of energy on it. If not they you get what we have. A big oh cluster.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. At the end of the day even good old Brian can't do much about the CAF timetable without expending a lot of energy that is.
> 
> 
> 
> One thinks that it should be someone who is expending a lot of energy on it. If not they you get what we have. A big oh cluster.
Click to expand...

I thought that is what the OIG report essentially says. So I am surprised that you apparently are surprised. I can understand dismayed, as we all are. But what exactly is new? I am not even sure that it is Brian's bailiwick. At least the OIG report suggests strongly that it is not.


----------



## OBS

I don't think managing this project has anything to do with Brian's job responsibilities...


----------



## jis

OBS said:


> I don't think managing this project has anything to do with Brian's job responsibilities...


Exactly! He just told the gathering what the panning and acquisition management guys told him to say.


----------



## VT Hokie

Super Steel RTL-III Turboliner?



MikefromCrete said:


> Gee, I thought some cars were actually going to be put in revenue service. I would think CAF will never get another order from Amtrak. I can't remember any equipment order that has been handled as bad as this one.


----------



## PerRock

VT Hokie said:


> Super Steel RTL-III Turboliner?
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gee, I thought some cars were actually going to be put in revenue service. I would think CAF will never get another order from Amtrak. I can't remember any equipment order that has been handled as bad as this one.
Click to expand...

Wasn't that more of a state-funding/ownership issue then a manufacturer issue?

peter


----------



## jis

It was entirely a failure of the manufacturer to deliver what was contracted issue. But it was also mostly a New York managed fiasco.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> It was entirely a failure of the manufacturer to deliver what was contracted issue. But it was also mostly a New York managed fiasco.


A New York State DOT mis-manangement problem? You mean the NYSDOT that, at that time, was led by none other than Joseph H. Boardman? Just sayin'.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was entirely a failure of the manufacturer to deliver what was contracted issue. But it was also mostly a New York managed fiasco.
> 
> 
> 
> A New York State DOT mis-manangement problem? You mean the NYSDOT that, at that time, was led by none other than Joseph H. Boardman? Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

Yeah. He and his boss George Pataki.


----------



## west point

Speculation --- If Boardman and Pataki then why nothing was disclosed ? Maybe Boardman knew that OIG report coming out and reason for announced retirement.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Speculation --- If Boardman and Pataki then why nothing was disclosed ? Maybe Boardman knew that OIG report coming out and reason for announced retirement.


What do you mean nothing was disclosed. AFAIR there was the usual OIG report of some sort, there was discovery in a court case, and finally after several years of pissing more money away on lawyers, everyone thought discretion was the better part of valor and settled with some money changing hands and promise to share some more money if the defunct sets were sold and some money came in from such sale. I don't think any of it was directly blamed on Boardman or Pataki. As usual responsibility was carefully distributed in a diffused way so probably no one was culpably responsible. Sh*t just happens - was the attitude, and NY State taxpayers were out a bunch of money with nothing to show for it except some executive friends of Pataki probably marginally richer. Amtrak allegedly stole a bunch of sets from NY State according to some railfans, never mind that the sets were always owned by Amtrak to start with. And the usual band played on....And Empire Service continue with Amfleets, except for a brief appearance by one of the refurbished sets.

I don't believe Boardman's retirement has anything to do with the OIG report. He was planning to retire for a while now, and it finally happened.

Incidentally, pretty much from the get go, there were many of us who thought that it was going to end exactly the way it did. NY State instead of seeking out new equipment with upto date technology tried to get a cheap lipstick on a pig solution and got exactly what was coming to them.


----------



## PVD

very well said....


----------



## west point

My question is nothing about the delays in delivery until the OIG report disclosed the many reasons. Nothing came directly from Amtrak. Only question why did it take OIG so long to investigate ?


----------



## west point

As posted on another site: Could it be that there was a non - disclosure clause(s) in the contract to build the V-2s ?


----------



## neroden

For reference the Turboliner III fiasco really wasn't Pataki's responsibility -- it was the pet project of some of our famously corrupt and incompetent state Senators. They absolutely, absolutely *insisted* that we should spend the money on trains instead of speeding up the tracks -- everyone including Pataki's DOT was telling them that we should speed up the tracks instead but they weren't listening. The state Senators involved are mostly retired or in prison for other crimes now.


----------



## erierail

I said this before, but here goes. I'll miss those old Budd diners. An end if an era. Rode the lsl three weeks ago, dinner and breakfasting in good ole 8505, a NP surviver. Rolling along like it was still 1957.


----------



## VT Hokie

jis said:


> ....And Empire Service continue with Amfleets, except for a brief appearance by one of the refurbished sets.


Two sets actually. I rode on both of 'em, and I have proof! Here's the second set after a run to Albany:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures%5C55110%5CPA200069.jpg


----------



## erierail

That's a great pic, and at the new station too.


----------



## neroden

Soooooo did anything come out of CAF today? I was sick and couldn't get out of bed to go check.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I think the train went up to get them, but I think they won't leave till tomorrow with the test cars till tomorrow.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Gene Poon report: MTK 123 and 520 are on their way to Elmira NY, reportedly to take 

delivery (but not at the "acceptance" level) of new cars from CAF. 

Since the baggage cars are all delivered, these should be the first 
production Viewliner diners.


----------



## Ryan

I've heard elsewhere that it'll be one each of the remaining car types (bag-dorm, sleeper, diner). No idea how reliable that is.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> I've heard elsewhere that it'll be one each of the remaining car types (bag-dorm, sleeper, diner). No idea how reliable that is.


It's probably the 3 that had been sent out for testing before for a retesting after the changes were made.


----------



## JohannFarley

Well I guess we'll find out, but either way the reaction from me is still "Ugh finally something!" Even if they are just for testing at least some progress.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard elsewhere that it'll be one each of the remaining car types (bag-dorm, sleeper, diner). No idea how reliable that is.
> 
> 
> 
> It's probably the 3 that had been sent out for testing before for a retesting after the changes were made.
Click to expand...

Although apparently this time it may be in service testing.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Dutchrailnut said:


> Gene Poon report: MTK 123 and 520 are on their way to Elmira NY, reportedly to take
> 
> delivery (but not at the "acceptance" level) of new cars from CAF.
> 
> Since the baggage cars are all delivered, these should be the first
> 
> production Viewliner diners.


and since it is a Gene Poon post, we all known the information is half baked or exaggerated. I'd post a correction, but TO would likely delete it...as they have done when I've corrected his misinformation.



Ryan said:


> I've heard elsewhere that it'll be one each of the remaining car types (bag-dorm, sleeper, diner). No idea how reliable that is.


Now, where have we seen this information before? Oh, I think it was in this thread:



Thirdrail7 said:


> I think some of you are getting the wrong impression. The "original three" will emerge for testing and return to the factory once testing is completed.
> 
> This isn't a revenue release.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard elsewhere that it'll be one each of the remaining car types (bag-dorm, sleeper, diner). No idea how reliable that is.
> 
> 
> 
> It's probably the 3 that had been sent out for testing before for a retesting after the changes were made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Although apparently this time it may be in service testing.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, especially for the diners. Unless they fill the diner with employees to eat the prepared meals.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Now, where have we seen this information before? Oh, I think it was in this thread:


Shhh, you'll make it too obvious!  h34r:


----------



## JohannFarley

Is the test run of the original three scheduled for today? And does anyone know what route they will be taking?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Not a test run, but a pull from the factory with cars going to Albany NY.


----------



## CHamilton

The Empire State Passenger Association has posted some photos on Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1057335060979642.1073741899.488709374508883&type=3


----------



## JohannFarley

Ah ok gotcha


----------



## spidersfan351

Just saw photos on FB, the three are a new Sleeper (#62500), a new Diner (#6800), and a new Bag-Dorm (#69001 in Amtrak America livery. It's on the Empire State Passenger Association FB group, and was shared to Amtrak Fans FB Group.


----------



## TylerP42

spidersfan351 said:


> Just saw photos on FB, the three are a new Sleeper (#62500), a new Diner (#6800), and a new Bag-Dorm (#69001 in Amtrak America livery. It's on the Empire State Passenger Association FB group, and was shared to Amtrak Fans FB Group.


Charlie beat you to the post...


----------



## R30A

Interesting- Not exactly the same three as before. Same diner, Same sleeper, different bag-dorm! (69001 this time. 69000 came the first time around)


----------



## CHamilton

More photos being posted on the Amtrak Fans FB group.


----------



## spidersfan351

TylerP42 said:


> spidersfan351 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just saw photos on FB, the three are a new Sleeper (#62500), a new Diner (#6800), and a new Bag-Dorm (#69001 in Amtrak America livery. It's on the Empire State Passenger Association FB group, and was shared to Amtrak Fans FB Group.
> 
> 
> 
> Charlie beat you to the post...
Click to expand...

My bad. Did not intend to duplicate...I saw them on FB and looked back to see if anyone had mentioned. I missed Charlie's post.


----------



## Brian Battuello

What's with the door on the Baggage/Dorm? Heck, I could inspect cars better than that!

(Okay, after two minutes someone on the Facebook page said that it is protective wrapping. Still, you'd think they'd clean it up better than that.)

((And I'm also confused about the return of the pointless arrow. I thought we just spent 15 years getting rid of it.))


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Brian Battuello said:


> What's with the door on the Baggage/Dorm? Heck, I could inspect cars better than that!


I'm wondering if it's protective wrap.


----------



## rrdude

Pix of BAG DORM, ripped off FB page, not mine.

Pix of SLEEPER, ripped off FB page, not mine.

Pix of DINER, ripped off FB page, not mine.

Believe photos are courtesy of:


Empire State Passengers Association


----------



## AmtrakBlue

rrdude said:


> Pix of BAG DORM, ripped off FB page, not mine.
> 
> Pix of SLEEPER, ripped off FB page, not mine.
> 
> Pix of DINER, ripped off FB page, not mine.


Well, that explains the bag dorm's look. rrdude ripped it when ripping off the pics from FB. h34r:


----------



## JohannFarley

Brian Battuello said:


> What's with the door on the Baggage/Dorm? Heck, I could inspect cars better than that!
> 
> (Okay, after two minutes someone on the Facebook page said that it is protective wrapping. Still, you'd think they'd clean it up better than that.)
> 
> ((And I'm also confused about the return of the pointless arrow. I thought we just spent 15 years getting rid of it.))


Well according to R30A, it is a newer Bag-Dorm, which has the new logo, as opposed to the original Diner and Sleeper which have the promotional pointless arrow the prototypes were painted with when they originally left CAF. So I assume that whenever they do leave they will have the new logo (as the newer Bag-Dorm shows) and they just never replaced the arrow logo on the original 2.


----------



## neroden

CHamilton said:


> More photos being posted on the Amtrak Fans FB group.


Link? Can't find it with Google, there are too many dead groups with that name.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

neroden said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> 
> More photos being posted on the Amtrak Fans FB group.
> 
> 
> 
> Link? Can't find it with Google, there are too many dead groups with that name.
Click to expand...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1739696069403935&set=gm.971945012874431&type=3&theater#


----------



## JohannFarley

They are all looking great. I don't care what anyone says about Phase IIIb but it looks wonderful in my opinion. Also, based on the fact that the Bag-Dorm is not the original prototype but rather the first production Bag-Dorm (based on numbering and logo), could this mean that they are closer to being finished and will be the first out? Just a speculation. I assume they are easier since they have half the bedrooms and are half just baggage space.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

JohannFarley said:


> They are all looking great. I don't care what anyone says about Phase IIIb but it looks wonderful in my opinion. Also, based on the fact that the Bag-Dorm is not the original prototype but rather the first production Bag-Dorm (based on numbering and logo), could this mean that they are closer to being finished and will be the first out? Just a speculation. I assume they are easier since they have half the bedrooms and are half just baggage space.


Diners are supposed to be next out.


----------



## JohannFarley

Yeah I saw that, and I assume they are sticking to their plan as they are obviously the cars that are most needed first. I was just wondering why the Bag-Dorm seemed to be the first production one and not the original prototype.


----------



## neroden

JohannFarley said:


> Yeah I saw that, and I assume they are sticking to their plan as they are obviously the cars that are most needed first. I was just wondering why the Bag-Dorm seemed to be the first production one and not the original prototype.


Wild speculation: there was something *seriously* wrong with 69000 (still needs welding work or something) and it's still being fixed.Alternate wild speculation: there were *major* design changes made in the bag-dorms, with 69001 serving as the testbed for the revised interior, and 69000 hasn't been "back-converted" to the new interior yet.

Whatever. I'm now guessing that we get another release in April if all goes well. Might be as little as the other prototype for each type of car, or we might get the first serious release of dining cars.

Hopefully these will cut maintenance costs on the Heritage dining cars, which must be astronomical at this point.


----------



## Acela150

The first two words of that first paragraph and first three words of the second make those paragraphs need to go away.


----------



## JohannFarley

Also question: Are the bag-dorms for crew or passengers?


----------



## Ryan

Crew, but that means that there will be more space for passengers in the passenger cars, since the crew won't be taking up rooms.

On trains where there is space, I'd expect the rooms to be offered for sale, similar to the trans-dorms on the SL trains.


----------



## JohannFarley

Ryan said:


> Crew, but that means that there will be more space for passengers in the passenger cars, since the crew won't be taking up rooms.
> 
> On trains where there is space, I'd expect the rooms to be offered for sale, similar to the trans-dorms on the SL trains.


Ah ok. So will these be going on all LDSL trains?


----------



## A Voice

JohannFarley said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Crew, but that means that there will be more space for passengers in the passenger cars, since the crew won't be taking up rooms.
> 
> On trains where there is space, I'd expect the rooms to be offered for sale, similar to the trans-dorms on the SL trains.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah ok. So will these be going on all LDSL trains?
Click to expand...

No, there are only ten baggage-dorm Viewliner II cars on order.


----------



## neroden

Offically as of the last inspector general's report, there was only one train which was confirmed to be getting a bag-dorm. Unfortunately, there is no hard evidence as to what train that is!


----------



## CCC1007

My guess would be the card or the lsl


----------



## JohannFarley

How many of each of those trains are there at any one time? One in each direction?


----------



## CCC1007

The cardinal needs 2 at present, and the lake shore limited needs three.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakBlue said:


> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1739696069403935&set=gm.971945012874431&type=3&theater#


Thanks!


----------



## JohannFarley

CCC1007 said:


> The cardinal needs 2 at present, and the lake shore limited needs three.


So theoretically both the cardinal and the lsl could be using them and there still be 5 spares.


----------



## CCC1007

Pretty much, though the cardinal should go daily, eventually, needing another set of equipment.


----------



## neroden

If either the Cardinal or the LSL got a bag-dorm, you'd want one for "protect" at Chicago and one for "protect" at New York. So that would use 2 more. If they both got them and the Cardinal were daily (as it should be), that's 3 + 3 + 2 = 8, and if they're in the shop for inspections and whatnot 20% of the time, that's the full 10.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The crew cars will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other cars have not been assigned yet.
> 
> Per ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.


----------



## Palmetto

CCC1007 said:


> Pretty much, though the cardinal should go daily, eventually, needing another set of equipment.


There is a post on another board about the Cardinal perhaps being in danger of running at all. With the downturn in coal traffic on the subdivision east of Cincinnati, there's speculation that CSX is going to downgrade the line and ask Amtrak to pick up the tab to maintain the line so as to be able to run at decent speeds. That, or run at 30 MPH.

Isn't this the situation in Indiana and Ohio that caused a re-route of the Broadway Limited back when?


----------



## afigg

JohannFarley said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cardinal needs 2 at present, and the lake shore limited needs three.
> 
> 
> 
> So theoretically both the cardinal and the lsl could be using them and there still be 5 spares.
Click to expand...

That is what the Inspector General report of a year and a half ago on the decision making process for the utilization of LD equipment stated. After the order was revised to only 10 bag-dorms, the planned utilization was 5 cars in regular revenue service, 2 reserve for shop count based on current ratio (80% utlilization) and 3 excess cars. The only LD trains that would fit the 5 cars were the Cardinal and LSL. So this is not new news.

I think the reduction to only 10 bag-dorm cars was a mistake. They should have made it 12 to 13 bag-dorms, so the Crescent could also be equipped with bag-dorms. The problem with baggage-dorm car half baggage capacity, from what I can tell, is mainly with the Silvers. The Florida market is different with many people traveling to Florida for the winter season or long periods of time and thus taking a lot of luggage with them. The Silver Star and Meteor baggage cars likely get full during the peak southbound and northbound travel seasons. The Crescent doesn't get that sort of traffic (or not much of it) and a half baggage car is still a lot of storage capacity (well, if it is properly utilized).

Under different circumstances, exercising a few of the options to order 5 additional Viewliner II sleeper cars and 3 baggage-dorms would have been useful and added vital capacity and flexibility to the LD fleet. But between Amtrak's financial crunch and CAF's problems with meeting the 130 car order, the odds of a late order for additional Viewliner IIs are poor.


----------



## afigg

JohannFarley said:


> Yeah I saw that, and I assume they are sticking to their plan as they are obviously the cars that are most needed first. I was just wondering why the Bag-Dorm seemed to be the first production one and not the original prototype.


Back when the cars were first being built, the stated plan - backed by photos of the production line - was to first build 2 of each type. Those would be run through testing and review. Then CAF was going to operate 2 production line simultaneously, one to build the remainder of the order for diners, bag-dorms, sleeper cars in sequential order, and the second to build the baggage cars. So the baggage-dorm car is simply the second of the first 2 units. Of course, that production plan went into the dumper and here we are, 4 years after this thread was started...

I would not call the first units "prototypes" as these were built for revenue service. They are the first article production units, used to test and verify the design and manufacturing quality.


----------



## JohannFarley

Ok that makes sense. Didn't know all this I'm fairly new to the forum and didn't fancy reading all 2000 something posts in this thread


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Has anyone spotted any diners yet?


----------



## CCC1007

Only the one that is out for testing...


----------



## keelhauled

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Has anyone spotted any diners yet?


There are pictures from literally yesterday, one click of the "previous page" button away.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

JohannFarley said:


> Ok that makes sense. Didn't know all this I'm fairly new to the forum and didn't fancy reading all 2000 something posts in this thread


We have 2739 or so posts on this thread. But if the Moderators deleted all the posts asking in one way or another, "Are we there yet?" that might cut the number by half.


----------



## PRR 60

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Has anyone spotted any diners yet?


One diner released for testing - the same car that had been released previously then return to CAF. I don't expect to see any multiple diner releases until mid-summer, at the earliest. A lot depends on what this round of testing finds and, if needed, how involved the corrective actions are.

The contrast between CAF's performance with the car contract and Siemens' performance with the ACS-64 is pretty dramatic. To be sure, the ACS-64's have not been trouble free, but the CAF work makes me think of the Yugo.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

PRR 60 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone spotted any diners yet?
> 
> 
> 
> . . . I don't expect to see any multiple diner releases until mid-summer, at the earliest. . . .
> 
> The contrast between CAF's performance with the car contract and Siemens' performance with the ACS-64 is pretty dramatic. To be sure, the ACS-64's have not been trouble free, but the CAF work makes me think of the Yugo.
Click to expand...

O.K., I'll defend CAF. It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.

The contrast between CAF's performance with its car contract and Nippon Sharyo's with the bilevel contract makes CAF look pretty damn good. At least CAF has released an uncrushed prototype, LOL. Actually, Amtrak has received HALF the cars and put them to work. No doubt CAF will finish the order sooner or (bet on) later, costing Amtrak a few millions.

Nippon Sharyo seems poised to break all Stimulus funding deadlines and forfeit hundreds of millions. Hundreds of millions.

Soon the states will have to go to Congress to get a separate special law thru extending the deadline and appropriating the money anew. That will be a haters' delight for sure, with perhaps a President Cruz or a President Trump leading the waltz.

The Midwest could be riding Horizons for another 5 or 7 years or more, and that ain't gonna be CAF's fault.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Nippon Sharyo could still come out of this looking good. A redesigned car could pass all tests and a speeded up assembly line could get get the cars out in time. CAF has no chance of ever looking good, since it seems the already completed baggage cars have their own set of problems.


----------



## A Voice

MikefromCrete said:


> Nippon Sharyo could still come out of this looking good. A redesigned car could pass all tests and a speeded up assembly line could get get the cars out in time. CAF has no chance of ever looking good, since it seems the already completed baggage cars have their own set of problems.


What are the current problems with the baggage cars?


----------



## Agent

Video of the special with the three test cars by YouTube user gregorygrice going through Ossining Station.


----------



## neroden

Having run down the Hudson Line, we know they're good for 110 mph operation. One test passed!  Thanks for the video.


----------



## neroden

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The crew cars will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other cars have not been assigned yet.
> 
> Per ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.


You know, I was there and I missed that. Did anyone say which section of the LSL they were going to put the bag-dorm on -- Boston or NY?
NY would make more sense from the perspective of (a) that's where most of the crew is coming from, (b) roomette prices are typically higher on the NY section, (c ) the NY section runs up against platform length limits so a combine leaves more room for private car moves or added coaches.

But on the other hand, I'm not sure if all the luggage from NY will fit in the bag-dorm.


----------



## west point

How can N_S deliver bi-levels to VRE ( assumed passed crush test ) and mid west cars fail ?


----------



## PerRock

I believe that VRE bought a design that had already gone thru testing; the Gallery Cars, which Metra uses; whereas the Midwest cars are of a new design & need new testing.

peter


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

neroden said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The crew cars will go to Lake Shore Limited, and Cardinal. The other cars have not been assigned yet.
> 
> Per ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> You know, I was there and I missed that. Did anyone say which section of the LSL they were going to put the bag-dorm on -- Boston or NY?
> NY would make more sense from the perspective of (a) that's where most of the crew is coming from, (b) roomette prices are typically higher on the NY section, (c ) the NY section runs up against platform length limits so a combine leaves more room for private car moves or added coaches.
> 
> But on the other hand, I'm not sure if all the luggage from NY will fit in the bag-dorm.
Click to expand...

Minor issue was he first stated Boston Section than change his mind to New York. So only time will tell for sure.
Step one get the equipment, then plan where to operate it? 

You miss the conversation due the facts it occurred after we headed for lunch. He was holding court, and I ask about the weird number of Crew cars and where/how they might be used.


----------



## Steve4031

MikefromCrete said:


> Nippon Sharyo could still come out of this looking good. A redesigned car could pass all tests and a speeded up assembly line could get get the cars out in time. CAF has no chance of ever looking good, since it seems the already completed baggage cars have their own set of problems.


I sure would like to see this happen. However I think n-s is too far behind in the process. (Perhaps the quoted response and my statement could be moved to the bi-level discussion so I don't hijack this thread.)


----------



## AmtrakLKL

A Voice said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nippon Sharyo could still come out of this looking good. A redesigned car could pass all tests and a speeded up assembly line could get get the cars out in time. CAF has no chance of ever looking good, since it seems the already completed baggage cars have their own set of problems.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the current problems with the baggage cars?
Click to expand...

1) Ventilation. Roof vents seem to do nothing for air flow. Might as well add a sauna class service to the trains. They are way too hot in the summer for crews.

2) Poorly designed bike rack installations and locations. There is a new configuration running in one baggage car right now. Eliminates the requirement to drop the bottom shelf to mount a bike. Also consolidates the bike rack locations to the ends of the car. Maybe it'll test well and roll out to the remainder of the fleet.

3) General wear-n-tear issues I wouldn't have expected in just one year of service.

These are just from an end-user's perspective. I'm sure mechanical people have other issues, too.


----------



## TiBike

AmtrakLKL said:


> 2) Poorly designed bike rack installations and locations. There is a new configuration running in one baggage car right now. Eliminates the requirement to drop the bottom shelf to mount a bike. Also consolidates the bike rack locations to the ends of the car. Maybe it'll test well and roll out to the remainder of the fleet.


Is that what's delaying roll-up service on LD trains?


----------



## Acela150

neroden said:


> Having run down the Hudson Line, we know they're good for 110 mph operation. One test passed!  Thanks for the video.


But are limited to 90 MPH per Bulletin Order.


----------



## jis

Just for now until certification is completed, no?

Also presumably when they are being tested for speed certifications (not on the delivery run admittedly) presumably said bulletin orders are suspended?


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Just for now until certification is completed, no?
> 
> Also presumably when they are being tested for speed certifications (not on the delivery run admittedly) presumably said bulletin orders are suspended?


During a move like this the cars are limited to 90. During testing I can't say for sure.


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?


Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.


----------



## edjbox

Acela150 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.
Click to expand...

Has the schedule been updated to reflect this?


----------



## Acela150

Not sure. I doubt it. There's not much of a difference. I think they'll leave as is for padding.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Acela150 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.
Click to expand...

Sweet! Now when the Viewliner diners get put on the other trains, dispatchers won't have to worry about dispatching Acelas and Regionals around them!

BTW, what's PV?


----------



## jebr

Private Varnish, or private rail cars that Amtrak is hauling for other people.


----------



## Ryan

They'll still have to wrangle the Acelas around them.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

jebr said:


> Private Varnish, or private rail cars that Amtrak is hauling for other people.


Ahhah. Ok.

I've always heard the term, private car.


----------



## TylerP42

Trains were able to run 110 with the diners (their max speed), But anyways, I'll miss the heritage diners. So much history and heritage in them. Oh well, times change.


----------



## keelhauled

110 vs 125 doesn't really matter anyway, with how short the sections of track in question are it's a difference of a minute or two at most.


----------



## neroden

AmtrakLKL said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nippon Sharyo could still come out of this looking good. A redesigned car could pass all tests and a speeded up assembly line could get get the cars out in time. CAF has no chance of ever looking good, since it seems the already completed baggage cars have their own set of problems.
> 
> 
> 
> What are the current problems with the baggage cars?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 1) Ventilation. Roof vents seem to do nothing for air flow. Might as well add a sauna class service to the trains. They are way too hot in the summer for crews.
> 
> 2) Poorly designed bike rack installations and locations. There is a new configuration running in one baggage car right now. Eliminates the requirement to drop the bottom shelf to mount a bike. Also consolidates the bike rack locations to the ends of the car. Maybe it'll test well and roll out to the remainder of the fleet.
> 
> 3) General wear-n-tear issues I wouldn't have expected in just one year of service.
> 
> These are just from an end-user's perspective. I'm sure mechanical people have other issues, too.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the list.

The bike rack thing can definitely be fixed. It does explain the delay in rolling out unboxed bike service.

The ventilation can *also* definitely be fixed, though it's going to be an annoyance.

Dunno about "wear and tear" but if it's all on the interior it's not going to cause any serious headaches.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

neroden said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Ventilation. Roof vents seem to do nothing for air flow. Might as well add a sauna class service to the trains. They are way too hot in the summer for crews.
> 
> 2) Poorly designed bike rack installations and locations. There is a new configuration running in one baggage car right now. Eliminates the requirement to drop the bottom shelf to mount a bike. Also consolidates the bike rack locations to the ends of the car. Maybe it'll test well and roll out to the remainder of the fleet.
> 
> 3) General wear-n-tear issues I wouldn't have expected in just one year of service.
> 
> These are just from an end-user's perspective. I'm sure mechanical people have other issues, too.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the list.
> 
> The bike rack thing can definitely be fixed. It does explain the delay in rolling out unboxed bike service.
> 
> The ventilation can *also* definitely be fixed, though it's going to be an annoyance.
> 
> Dunno about "wear and tear" but if it's all on the interior it's not going to cause any serious headaches.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, the bike racks are perfectly usable, they're just more difficult to use than they should be. Sometimes requires shuffling bags to drop the bottom shelf to accommodate an unexpected bike. So I wouldn't say that's the issue delaying expansion of the walk-up bike program. Overall it seems to work just fine.

There are interior issues that can cause serious headaches. h34r:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

AmtrakLKL said:


> There are interior issues that can cause serious headaches. h34r:


Did you drop a shelf on your head?


----------



## StriderGDM

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sweet! Now when the Viewliner diners get put on the other trains, dispatchers won't have to worry about dispatching Acelas and Regionals around them!
> 
> BTW, what's PV?
Click to expand...

Right. It's not so much about the Silver Service and Crescent trains being able to run a faster schedule as much as them not messing with the regionals.

It's a small bit, but helps.


----------



## VT Hokie

Acela150 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.
Click to expand...

Also, when I took train 66 from Williamsburg, VA up to New Jersey last Thanksgiving, we ran at 125 on the NEC with the Viewliner baggage car.


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sweet! Now when the Viewliner diners get put on the other trains, dispatchers won't have to worry about dispatching Acelas and Regionals around them!
> 
> BTW, what's PV?
Click to expand...

Actually the Viewliner I cars are rated for 110MPH currently. But will be upgraded when funding comes and they can cycle them through.


----------



## neroden

I guess what I'm saying is, given the number of times interiors have been redone on railroad cars, and given the relatively modular design of the Viewliners, relatively minor interior problems are something which Amtrak can eventually fix, and even within a reasonable timeframe. If there were something fundamantally wrong with the carshell (like the old Pullman cars with Cor-Ten steel welded to stainless steel...) or the frame or the mechanicals, it would be much more problematic.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Acela150 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sweet! Now when the Viewliner diners get put on the other trains, dispatchers won't have to worry about dispatching Acelas and Regionals around them!
> 
> BTW, what's PV?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the Viewliner I cars are rated for 110MPH currently. But will be upgraded when funding comes and they can cycle them through.
Click to expand...

I thought they have long since been upgraded for 125. But I guess the rumors I read (long before the Viewliner II's were in service) were wrong.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sweet! Now when the Viewliner diners get put on the other trains, dispatchers won't have to worry about dispatching Acelas and Regionals around them!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the Viewliner I cars are rated for 110MPH currently. But will be upgraded when funding comes and they can cycle them through.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought they have long since been upgraded for 125. But I guess the rumors I read (long before the Viewliner II's were in service) were wrong.
Click to expand...

The Viewliner Is weren't the problem at whatever speed. The problems were the heritage baggage cars and heritage diners that had to go 'not so fast', and sometimes threw the faster trains coming up behind off their stride. We have the new baggage cars, next up is the diners. Then with the LDs trains with V I's going 110 and then V IIs going 125 mph, that should clear the tracks.


----------



## neroden

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the Viewliner I cars are rated for 110MPH currently. But will be upgraded when funding comes and they can cycle them through.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought they have long since been upgraded for 125. But I guess the rumors I read (long before the Viewliner II's were in service) were wrong.
Click to expand...

Actually, what I was told (second-hand, could be wrong) is that they are in fact supposed to be good for 125 -- they shouldn't need alterations -- but that they are not *certified* to 125. Amtrak was saving money on the testing since they were always coupled with Heritage cars and couldn't run at 125 anyway.

So they should be tested and certified for 125 eventually.


----------



## west point

Amtrak and NJT ran a test train of a V-1 sleeper, ALP-45dp, and a couple other cars a while back to certify each for 125 operation. Test Speed operated was ~130 MPH but don't know actual speed. Have not heard what the result was and if all parts of the consist all got certified to 125.


----------



## Ryan

I seem to recall hearing that it didn't go as well as they had hoped, but I can't remember from where, or even that I'm remembering it correctly.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the Viewliner I cars are rated for 110MPH currently. But will be upgraded when funding comes and they can cycle them through.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought they have long since been upgraded for 125. But I guess the rumors I read (long before the Viewliner II's were in service) were wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, what I was told (second-hand, could be wrong) is that they are in fact supposed to be good for 125 -- they shouldn't need alterations -- but that they are not *certified* to 125. Amtrak was saving money on the testing since they were always coupled with Heritage cars and couldn't run at 125 anyway.
> 
> So they should be tested and certified for 125 eventually.
Click to expand...

I'm as bad as you with this Neroden, but I believe it is the wheel profile that had to be changed as the trucks are certified. Something like that?



Ryan said:


> I seem to recall hearing that it didn't go as well as they had hoped, but I can't remember from where,


Probably from someone in the chat room.



Ryan said:


> or even that I'm remembering it correctly.



You probably are.


----------



## TylerP42

Not sure if it's needed, but I though I would put this here since I have the information infront of me, as of 01/05/2009, Viewliner Cars 62000-62049, 62091, 8400 are rated at 110. (Air Brake and train handling rules and instructions book)


----------



## Acela150

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With no more Heritage cars on the Palmetto and Carolinian, are either of these two trains running at 125 MPH on the NEC yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Both trains can run under "B" train speeds. Unless PV is attached.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sweet! Now when the Viewliner diners get put on the other trains, dispatchers won't have to worry about dispatching Acelas and Regionals around them!
> 
> BTW, what's PV?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually the Viewliner I cars are rated for 110MPH currently. But will be upgraded when funding comes and they can cycle them through.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought they have long since been upgraded for 125. But I guess the rumors I read (long before the Viewliner II's were in service) were wrong.
Click to expand...

You really need to find a better place for information. The one word that commonly comes out in your posts is "Rumor". I can easily find this information in my Amtrak Employee TT, which as a RR employee who is qualified over Amtrak trackage I must carry. Granted I'm sure there is a new G.O. due, I'm sure it was still show the same information.


----------



## CCC1007

Are there really only two teens on this board?


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> I'm as bad as you with this Neroden, but I believe it is the wheel profile that had to be changed as the trucks are certified. Something like that?


Sounds plausible, not that I have any information whatsoever. If it is the wheel profile, this is honestly easy stuff. Wheelsets get replaced fairly often.


----------



## Acela150

CCC1007 said:


> Are there really only two teens on this board?


No there's quite a few. I started out here at 16 or 17. It's been to long.. I can't remember anything anymore.. LOL!!


----------



## edjbox

Once and for all,

Viewliner Is have been tested at 125 mph but certified operational speeds have not been raised yet


----------



## Matthew1551

CCC1007 said:


> Are there really only two teens on this board?


Ahem.. make that 3.

Matthew, age 15


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Matthew1551 said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there really only two teens on this board?
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem.. make that 3.
> 
> Matthew, age 15
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if he's implying the adults are acting like teens/kids. h34r:


----------



## CCC1007

AmtrakBlue said:


> Matthew1551 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there really only two teens on this board?
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem.. make that 3.
> Matthew, age 15
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm wondering if he's implying the adults are acting like teens/kids. h34r:
Click to expand...

Not at all, though that would be one way of seeing it...


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Can you ride Amtrak alone at 15? I just turned 16, I always thought that was the minimum age. Although, since there is no requirement for ID with date of birth for minors I am not sure how they can enforce that.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

here is your answer : https://www.amtrak.com/unaccompanied-minors-policy


----------



## LakeShoreLtd.

Diner 8400 is on the eastbound Lakeshore Limited #48 today. Personally, I love the look of its paint scheme


----------



## IndyRacingNut

This truly is the thread that won't die, isn't it?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

IndyRacingNut said:


> This truly is the thread that won't die, isn't it?


Why should it? We're still waiting for the new diners and sleepers to be delivered.


----------



## MikefromCrete

The thread won't die until the cars are delivered and in service. And only God knows when that will be.


----------



## jis

MikefromCrete said:


> The thread won't die until the cars are delivered and in service. And only God knows when that will be.


You give too much credit to god I am afraid 

Meanwhile Bangladesh Railway placed an order for 120 Broad Gauge Coaches (Cars) meeting UIC standards, with mixed accommodation, with the Railway Coach Factory of Indian Railways in Kapurthala last September, with 40 to be delivered by March 2016 and the rest by March 2017.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/jalandhar/rcf-to-export-coaches-to-bangladesh/196032.html

RCF just finished delivering the first 40, couple of days back, on schedule, six months after the order was placed. They were delivered in two 20 car special moves from Kapurthala, crossing the border into Bangladesh at Gede. Shows what is possible when off the shelf equipment is ordered from a running production line.

BR is also getting a hundred or so Metre Gauge cars from Indoneisa, which are starting to arrive by boat.


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thread won't die until the cars are delivered and in service. And only God knows when that will be.
> 
> 
> 
> You give too much credit to god I am afraid
Click to expand...

Not at all. God isn't concerned much about the Viewliner II order, because he already knows when the cars will be delivered, and he knows the day the last of them will be retired four or five decades from now.

We're the ones who obsess over such things!


----------



## hastybob

BOLO! The new Viewliner cars in Philadelphia are heading south this evening on a special. Looks like they are headed to Miami like the other ones did!


----------



## TylerP42

hastybob said:


> BOLO! The new Viewliner cars in Philadelphia are heading south this evening on a special. Looks like they are headed to Miami like the other ones did!


I thought I remember hearing that they'd enter service in Florida first, but that's just what I remember, who knows what they are doing.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

TylerP42 said:


> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> BOLO! The new Viewliner cars in Philadelphia are heading south this evening on a special. Looks like they are headed to Miami like the other ones did!
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I remember hearing that they'd enter service in Florida first, but that's just what I remember, who knows what they are doing.
Click to expand...

Seriously doubt they're entering service as these are just the test cars. They're probably going down so the maintenance people can see what they'll be getting in the near future.


----------



## Seaboard92

Running as a special movement or tacked on to 97 or 91?


----------



## ronkstevens

AmtrakBlue said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> BOLO! The new Viewliner cars in Philadelphia are heading south this evening on a special. Looks like they are headed to Miami like the other ones did!
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I remember hearing that they'd enter service in Florida first, but that's just what I remember, who knows what they are doing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seriously doubt they're entering service as these are just the test cars. They're probably going down so the maintenance people can see what they'll be getting in the near future.
Click to expand...

Or make sure all of the defects have been corrected


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

hastybob said:


> BOLO! The new Viewliner cars in Philadelphia are heading south this evening on a special. Looks like they are headed to Miami like the other ones did!


Are they diners?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> BOLO! The new Viewliner cars in Philadelphia are heading south this evening on a special. Looks like they are headed to Miami like the other ones did!
> 
> 
> 
> Are they diners?
Click to expand...

One diner, one bag-dorm and one sleeper


----------



## Thirdrail7

Seaboard92 said:


> Running as a special movement or tacked on to 97 or 91?







Thirdrail7 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Third Rail are they riding on the back of 97 or are they taking a twenty car special like the baggage cars did once.
> 
> 
> 
> If all goes according to plan, they will go solo. It is a quick round trip.
Click to expand...

All has gone according to plan.


----------



## Ryan

/me wonders how quick is "quick"


----------



## Seaboard92

If they are going solo I think I'll reschedule some meetings and head down savannah ways


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Man, I wonder how long it's gonna take before the diners come out and go to Hialeah? The Heritage diners, as you may know, are already in need of replacement.


----------



## TylerP42

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Man, I wonder how long it's gonna take before the diners come out and go to Hialeah? The Heritage diners, as you may know, are already in need of replacement.


To be honest, the heritage diners have held up well and their maintenance is well. I hear of amfleets and viewliners having more issues than I hear of diners having issues, but it can be a bit unfair to compare... anyways, the heritage diners are probably good for another 10 years if need be. As I said, if need be. Not that they will be in operation for another 10 years.


----------



## pennyk

Thirdrail7 said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Running as a special movement or tacked on to 97 or 91?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Third Rail are they riding on the back of 97 or are they taking a twenty car special like the baggage cars did once.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If all goes according to plan, they will go solo. It is a quick round trip.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All has gone according to plan.
Click to expand...

any idea when they will be passing through the Orlando area?


----------



## Gulfwind2

Can anyone verify the movement of V-II's which is supposedly taking place towards Hialeah? Or for that matter, whether the cars are on their way to Hialeah for any sort of training? (Or just more correcting of copious defects)


----------



## OBS

You don't need verification. If Thirdrail7 said it, it is true. My guess is they will be running on the window that 97 operates in. Either right before or right after...but just a guess.


----------



## Seaboard92

That's what I was about to say OBS. My best bet of daylight is savannah


----------



## WoodyinNYC

They are moving, and apparently in the right direction. That's good enuff for me today.


----------



## neroden

TylerP42 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, I wonder how long it's gonna take before the diners come out and go to Hialeah? The Heritage diners, as you may know, are already in need of replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, the heritage diners have held up well and their maintenance is well. I hear of amfleets and viewliners having more issues than I hear of diners having issues, but it can be a bit unfair to compare... anyways, the heritage diners are probably good for another 10 years if need be. As I said, if need be. Not that they will be in operation for another 10 years.
Click to expand...

Look up the flat wheel incident which stopped one of the Silver Service trains for hours a few years ago. The Heritage diners are mostly on their last legs. (I think some of them are in better condition than others.)


----------



## TylerP42

neroden said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, I wonder how long it's gonna take before the diners come out and go to Hialeah? The Heritage diners, as you may know, are already in need of replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, the heritage diners have held up well and their maintenance is well. I hear of amfleets and viewliners having more issues than I hear of diners having issues, but it can be a bit unfair to compare... anyways, the heritage diners are probably good for another 10 years if need be. As I said, if need be. Not that they will be in operation for another 10 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look up the flat wheel incident which stopped one of the Silver Service trains for hours a few years ago. The Heritage diners are mostly on their last legs. (I think some of them are in better condition than others.)
Click to expand...

On there last legs, yes, but they still have some years left in them. Most certainly aren't going to keel over tomorrow.


----------



## NTL1991

Here's some info about the special move:

Consist:

ACS-64 Locomotive 653 (PHL-WAS)

P42-8 Locomotive 174 (WAS-MIA)

Viewliner II Baggage 61035

Amfleet II Business Class 48176

Viewliner II Baggage Dorm Car 69001

Viewliner II Diner Car 68000

Viewliner II Sleeper Car 62500

Viewliner I Sleeper Car 62027

Schedule:

PHL: 6:50P Dep.

WAS: 8:45P Arr. 9:15P Dep.

RVR: 11:15P Arr. 11:30P Dep.

FLO: 5:30A Arr. 5:45A Dep.

JAX: 11:45P Arr. 12:01P Dep.

MIA: 9:00P Arr.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ryan said:


> /me wonders how quick is "quick"


It should be in and out. If nothing goes wrong, it'll stay for a day and return.



pennyk said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Running as a special movement or tacked on to 97 or 91?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Third Rail are they riding on the back of 97 or are they taking a twenty car special like the baggage cars did once.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If all goes according to plan, they will go solo. It is a quick round trip.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All has gone according to plan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> any idea when they will be passing through the Orlando area?
Click to expand...

I'm taking a wild guess based upon the running time of train 97 between JAX and ORL. The special was due out of JAX, noon tomorrow. It left WAS at 1030pm, roughly an hour down. Therefore, I'll say somewhere around 4pm?


----------



## edjbox

Anyone have video?


----------



## keelhauled

TylerP42 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, I wonder how long it's gonna take before the diners come out and go to Hialeah? The Heritage diners, as you may know, are already in need of replacement.
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, the heritage diners have held up well and their maintenance is well. I hear of amfleets and viewliners having more issues than I hear of diners having issues, but it can be a bit unfair to compare... anyways, the heritage diners are probably good for another 10 years if need be. As I said, if need be. Not that they will be in operation for another 10 years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look up the flat wheel incident which stopped one of the Silver Service trains for hours a few years ago. The Heritage diners are mostly on their last legs. (I think some of them are in better condition than others.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On there last legs, yes, but they still have some years left in them. Most certainly aren't going to keel over tomorrow.
Click to expand...

According to Amtrak's fleet strategy plan as of 2012, the Heritage fleet has five million plus miles on them since Amtrak began keeping records sometime in the 1970s, second only to the Amfleet IIs without even counting the mileage from their previous service. They are orphan equipment, effectively custom, with all the expenses and headaches and inefficiencies that go with it, as well as being painfully inadequate for serving Amtrak's current passenger loads and the sooner they are off the property and in a pile of scrap the happier I as a passenger shall be.


----------



## edjbox

Are all the heritage baggage cars out of regular revenue service (excluding extra cars placed on Illinois trains) ??


----------



## Thirdrail7

edjbox said:


> Are all the heritage baggage cars out of regular revenue service (excluding extra cars placed on Illinois trains) ??


No, there are still heritage baggage cars in revenue service as baggage cars.


----------



## Agent

edjbox said:


> Are all the heritage baggage cars out of regular revenue service (excluding extra cars placed on Illinois trains) ??


A few have been used on the _California Zephyr_ the past several weeks. Here's one on Amtrak #5 from March 18.


----------



## neroden

keelhauled said:


> According to Amtrak's fleet strategy plan as of 2012, the Heritage fleet has five million plus miles on them since Amtrak began keeping records sometime in the 1970s, second only to the Amfleet IIs without even counting the mileage from their previous service. They are orphan equipment, effectively custom, with all the expenses and headaches and inefficiencies that go with it, as well as being painfully inadequate for serving Amtrak's current passenger loads and the sooner they are off the property and in a pile of scrap the happier I as a passenger shall be.


I'll take exception to "pile of scrap" since I think the dining cars would be very attractive to various museum and tourist operations and should be sold to them. The baggage cars are so stripped that they have no historical value left.


----------



## Seaboard92

Actually baggage cars have a good use in preservation as well. They make excellent converts into Tool cars and power cars. So they do have some use. Not the 1700 series but the original baggage cars are good for something.


----------



## Palmetto

For those of trying to follow the move down to Hialeah, the CSX symbol is P855.


----------



## lo2e

Seaboard92 said:


> Actually baggage cars have a good use in preservation as well. They make excellent converts into Tool cars and power cars. So they do have some use. Not the 1700 series but the original baggage cars are good for something.


Would they have to fix/replace the roll-up doors to serve either of those purposes? I know some of the baggage cars have had door problems.


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Amtrak's fleet strategy plan as of 2012, the Heritage fleet has five million plus miles on them since Amtrak began keeping records sometime in the 1970s, second only to the Amfleet IIs without even counting the mileage from their previous service. They are orphan equipment, effectively custom, with all the expenses and headaches and inefficiencies that go with it, as well as being painfully inadequate for serving Amtrak's current passenger loads and the sooner they are off the property and in a pile of scrap the happier I as a passenger shall be.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take exception to "pile of scrap" since I think the dining cars would be very attractive to various museum and tourist operations and should be sold to them. The baggage cars are so stripped that they have no historical value left.
Click to expand...

I agree. Specially the Timoinsa rebuilds would be pretty attractive almost immediately for use. The others might need a bit of work to fix up the interior.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.

Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.

If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.


----------



## Seaboard92

I'm actually looking at acquiring two budd baggage cars and as many diners as my organization can fund.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

I can easily see a museum snapping up the former _*Zephyr*_ Diners and restoring them to their original exterior and interior.


----------



## A Voice

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.
> 
> Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.
> 
> If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.


That would be a sadly mistaken policy. I really don't think Amtrak has much to worry about over competition from museums, tourist railroads, and dinner trains. Add to that the cars have historical value and represent the last lot of Heritage cars Amtrak would be selling; I can't see the Amfleet II cars - when eventually replaced and finally sold - being as attractive (or similarly priced) to the same buyers.

The cars could always be sold on the condition Amtrak will not permit them on its trains, though they already operate private cars of the same vintage (or older). If someone really wanted to take business from Amtrak, they don't need retired Amtrak equipment to do so. How could you use just a diner or baggage car to do that anyway?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.
> 
> Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.
> 
> If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.


If you really want to take someone's business away, using 50-60+ year old equipment wouldn't be the way to do it. Brand new equipment from a competitor would be the way to give Amtrak the middle finger.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Palmetto said:


> For those of trying to follow the move down to Hialeah, the CSX symbol is P855.


It looks like it is having a slow ride! It's down quite a bit of time. At this rate, I'd guess ORL between 7pm and 8pm?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those of trying to follow the move down to Hialeah, the CSX symbol is P855.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like it is having a slow ride! It's down quite a bit of time. At this rate, I'd guess ORL between 7pm and 8pm?
Click to expand...

Guess Penny will have to stay up late to see it! LOL


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Thirdrail7 said:


> All has gone according to plan.


I have to say, that sounds rather ominous (I'm hearing an indeterminate accent and gleeful handwringing)....


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

PS I think I saw a new baggage car on this mornings CONO.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Palmetto said:


> For those of trying to follow the move down to Hialeah, the CSX symbol is P855.


The CSX symbol is P933. They're still a good bit north of JAX.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Where/how do you track CSX trains?


----------



## Hal

AmtrakBlue said:


> Where/how do you track CSX trains?


Probably logged into CSX at an Amtrak crew office.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Still not into JAX. This is part of the problem: http://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/nassau-county/pedestrian-dies-after-being-hit-by-train

At the rate they're going could be a daylight arrival in south Florida.


----------



## Amtrak Cajun

I saw a new baggage car on Saturday's(4/2) Sunset trip to Houston, and another new one on the SL Sunday return to Lafayette (4/3). It was nice to see them in person, not just on youtube vids.


----------



## edjbox

Any pictures of the special move?


----------



## neroden

A Voice said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.
> 
> Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.
> 
> If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a sadly mistaken policy. I really don't think Amtrak has much to worry about over competition from museums, tourist railroads, and dinner trains. Add to that the cars have historical value and represent the last lot of Heritage cars Amtrak would be selling; I can't see the Amfleet II cars - when eventually replaced and finally sold - being as attractive (or similarly priced) to the same buyers.
> 
> The cars could always be sold on the condition Amtrak will not permit them on its trains, though they already operate private cars of the same vintage (or older). If someone really wanted to take business from Amtrak, they don't need retired Amtrak equipment to do so. How could you use just a diner or baggage car to do that anyway?
Click to expand...

Yeah, the main "dinner train" market is on isolated tourist railroads or class III railroads which Amtrak doesn't operate on *anyway*. I don't think Amtrak has anything to worry about by selling the diners to these operations.


----------



## Palmetto

AmtrakLKL said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those of trying to follow the move down to Hialeah, the CSX symbol is P855.
> 
> 
> 
> The CSX symbol is P933. They're still a good bit north of JAX.
Click to expand...

Ah, the wonderful info on Facebook. I should have added a disclaimer! ^_^


----------



## MARC Rider

"Caesar La Rock" u said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.
> 
> Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.
> 
> If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.
> 
> 
> 
> If you really want to take someone's business away, using 50-60+ year old equipment wouldn't be the way to do it. Brand new equipment from a competitor would be the way to give Amtrak the middle finger.
Click to expand...

Hey, if there were other organizations out there actively promoting and offering passenger rail service in competition with Amtrak, wouldn't that be a Good Thing for those of us who avocation for more passenger train service?


----------



## CCC1007

MARC Rider said:


> Caesar La Rock said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.
> 
> Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.
> 
> If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.
> 
> 
> 
> If you really want to take someone's business away, using 50-60+ year old equipment wouldn't be the way to do it. Brand new equipment from a competitor would be the way to give Amtrak the middle finger.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, if there were other organizations out there actively promoting and offering passenger rail service in competing with Amtrak, wouldn't that be a Good Thing for those of us who avocation for more passenger train service?
Click to expand...

Yes it would, and new equipment would be as loud of a signal as you could send that "there is a market here"


----------



## Karl1459

neroden said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.
> 
> Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.
> 
> If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a sadly mistaken policy. I really don't think Amtrak has much to worry about over competition from museums, tourist railroads, and dinner trains. Add to that the cars have historical value and represent the last lot of Heritage cars Amtrak would be selling; I can't see the Amfleet II cars - when eventually replaced and finally sold - being as attractive (or similarly priced) to the same buyers.
> 
> The cars could always be sold on the condition Amtrak will not permit them on its trains, though they already operate private cars of the same vintage (or older). If someone really wanted to take business from Amtrak, they don't need retired Amtrak equipment to do so. How could you use just a diner or baggage car to do that anyway?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, the main "dinner train" market is on isolated tourist railroads or class III railroads which Amtrak doesn't operate on *anyway*. I don't think Amtrak has anything to worry about by selling the diners to these operations.
Click to expand...

Perhaps this is not a "fear of competition" issue, rather a "fear of liability" issue. The heritage cars have been run well past any reasonable service period and are likely suffering varying degrees of metal fatigue and are likely considered at risk for structural failure. If Amtrak sells any cars that are in that condition and it ends up causing a crash in real (not excursion type) passenger service the hordes of "Philadelphia Lawyers" will surely be suing Amtrak.


----------



## Seaboard92

Anyone know what day they are running them north?


----------



## TylerP42

Karl1459 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The policy is to scrap them. If you don't scrap the cars you will see them in service again. Somebody will use them to take away your business in some fashion. Add insult to injury they might ask you to maintain them.
> 
> Case in point: Locomotion in Germany. This outfit is using old East Germany railcars to run service (low cost) on the same route that DB's ICE trains run.
> 
> If a state was looking for a low cost lounge car, a dinner could be used. Then Amtrak would / could be stuck maintain the equipment. The same equipment that just was replaced due to old age. Amtrak would lose rent funding, get a maintenance headache. Add a dose of bad words ever time it broke down.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a sadly mistaken policy. I really don't think Amtrak has much to worry about over competition from museums, tourist railroads, and dinner trains. Add to that the cars have historical value and represent the last lot of Heritage cars Amtrak would be selling; I can't see the Amfleet II cars - when eventually replaced and finally sold - being as attractive (or similarly priced) to the same buyers.
> 
> The cars could always be sold on the condition Amtrak will not permit them on its trains, though they already operate private cars of the same vintage (or older). If someone really wanted to take business from Amtrak, they don't need retired Amtrak equipment to do so. How could you use just a diner or baggage car to do that anyway?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, the main "dinner train" market is on isolated tourist railroads or class III railroads which Amtrak doesn't operate on *anyway*. I don't think Amtrak has anything to worry about by selling the diners to these operations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perhaps this is not a "fear of competition" issue, rather a "fear of liability" issue. The heritage cars have been run well past any reasonable service period and are likely suffering varying degrees of metal fatigue and are likely considered at risk for structural failure. If Amtrak sells any cars that are in that condition and it ends up causing a crash in real (not excursion type) passenger service the hordes of "Philadelphia Lawyers" will surely be suing Amtrak.
Click to expand...

They used to auction them. The railroad museum that I volunteer at has an old Amtrak diner.


----------



## TiBike

Any ideas on why the old baggage cars are still being used? All the new ones have been delivered and, it seems, accepted for service. There's been plenty of time for training – more than a year. Is there something wrong with the new cars, or is it just pure bureaucratic inertia?



Agent said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are all the heritage baggage cars out of regular revenue service (excluding extra cars placed on Illinois trains) ??
> 
> 
> 
> A few have been used on the _California Zephyr_ the past several weeks. Here's one on Amtrak #5 from March 18.
Click to expand...


----------



## CCC1007

TiBike said:


> Any ideas on why the old baggage cars are still being used? All the new ones have been delivered and, it seems, accepted for service. There's been plenty of time for training – more than a year. Is there something wrong with the new cars, or is it just pure bureaucratic inertia?
> 
> 
> 
> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are all the heritage baggage cars out of regular revenue service (excluding extra cars placed on Illinois trains) ??
> 
> 
> 
> A few have been used on the _California Zephyr_ the past several weeks. Here's one on Amtrak #5 from March 18.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

could be for express package service...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Seaboard92 said:


> Anyone know what day they are running them north?


If they ever made it to Miami, I suppose they'll head back up tomorrow if not today.


----------



## A Voice

TiBike said:


> Any ideas on why the old baggage cars are still being used? All the new ones have been delivered and, it seems, accepted for service. There's been plenty of time for training – more than a year. Is there something wrong with the new cars, or is it just pure bureaucratic inertia?
> 
> 
> 
> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are all the heritage baggage cars out of regular revenue service (excluding extra cars placed on Illinois trains) ??
> 
> 
> 
> A few have been used on the _California Zephyr_ the past several weeks. Here's one on Amtrak #5 from March 18.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

There are still ten baggage-dormitory cars yet to be delivered.


----------



## TiBike

I don't think that would explain why heritage baggage cars - not bag dorms - are still being used. From what I can tell, Amtrak received 70 new baggage cars and only needs 50-something for regular operations. So there's a good inventory of spares too. Why would the old bags still be on the Zephyr?



A Voice said:


> There are still ten baggage-dormitory cars yet to be delivered.


----------



## OBS

Maybe some of the new Bags are still having modification work done to them before entering active service?


----------



## neroden

I believe the new baggage cars are still being taken out of service for retrofits/bugfixes quite frequently. Hopefully that will be over within a few months.

I strongly suspect that only the 'best' of the Heritage baggage cars are still operating.


----------



## Fan Railer

edjbox said:


> Any pictures of the special move?


Only if you have facebook lol


----------



## Acela150

Fan Railer said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any pictures of the special move?
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you have facebook lol
Click to expand...

Facebook? What's that?


----------



## looshi

I had heard that Amtrak planned on keeping the best of the heritage baggage cars in the fleet so that there would be capacity to grow the express package service. The plan was to keep most of the ex-ATSF cars and get rid of the converted coaches. That was a while ago though and my source is no longer with Amtrak, so plans may have changed.


----------



## erierail

I don't think Amtrak gas any plans on keeping any of the baggage cars, for the very reason the new ones were purchased, all of them are well pass their economic life.

I can't see how or

Why Amtrak would enter the highly mechanized, super time sensitive package express service, beyond what currently do. Amtrak doesn't have the capital to support its current operations. It would cost billions to go head to head with ups or fed ex.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Agree. The following story shows how many restrictions and challenges there are to ship with Amtrak. I thought the author was kind given that they delivered his goods to a station many hours away from where he was expecting.

http://transitized.com/2014/08/20/moved-across-country-amtrak/

Even if the revenue is pure add-on, I can't believe this is worth the extra effort and management time to deal with it. But we digress...


----------



## Devil's Advocate

A Voice said:


> God isn't concerned much about the Viewliner II order, because he already knows when the cars will be delivered, and he knows the day the last of them will be retired four or five decades from now.


Well that escalated quickly.



OlympianHiawatha said:


> I can easily see a museum snapping up the former _*Zephyr*_ Diners and restoring them to their original exterior and interior.


I can easily see a museum struggling to ship a single diner to their location and then being forced to leave it outside to rot while they spend the next few decades trying to drum up enough funding to fix it up and build some enclosed space for it.



Brian Battuello said:


> Agree. The following story shows how many restrictions and challenges there are to ship with Amtrak. I thought the author was kind given that they delivered his goods to a station many hours away from where he was expecting.


That story was tough to read. They basically treated him like an unwanted hassle who should have known better.


----------



## erierail

Also remember that the old or original railway express agency ( rea ) did nothing to halt the decline of the american passenger train. If any thing it was viewed as labor and capital intensive, that provided marginal returns for the carriers.


----------



## Walt

Devil's Advocate said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can easily see a museum snapping up the former _*Zephyr*_ Diners and restoring them to their original exterior and interior.
> 
> 
> 
> I can easily see a museum struggling to ship a single diner to their location and then being forced to leave it outside to rot while they spend the next few decades trying to drum up enough funding to fix it up and build some enclosed space for it.
Click to expand...

That just might be the unfortunate reality. Old, worn out, Amtrak cars just don't have the draw/pizzazz of a Space Shuttle.


----------



## erierail

I think they might have pizzazz, but not in a static form. For Trains to be interesting, they need to be rolling. Not stuffed and mounted in a static type display.


----------



## PerRock

Devil's Advocate said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can easily see a museum snapping up the former _*Zephyr*_ Diners and restoring them to their original exterior and interior.
> 
> 
> 
> I can easily see a museum struggling to ship a single diner to their location and then being forced to leave it outside to rot while they spend the next few decades trying to drum up enough funding to fix it up and build some enclosed space for it.
Click to expand...

This is all so true. The Henry Ford Museum bought a GG1 years ago; and haven't been able to move it from it's location to the museum. Now a diner is probably going to be easier to move; but it's till difficult.

peter


----------



## erierail

I hope Amtrak auctions off its heritage fleet diners. Be a shame if they go to scrap. I am sure their are places that would love to have them.


----------



## OBS

And it is not like they couldn't use the extra ca$h....


----------



## MikefromCrete

It's not like they will bring a lot down to the bottom line. I doubt if most railroad museums would pay a lot for them. Still, at least some of the diners should end up at museums or dinner trains. The baggage cars won't be good for much more than storage cars at museums. I don't see anybody using them to start up train services to rival Amtrak.


----------



## jis

Maybe we need a separate thread to discuss what to do or not with the retired Heritage cars, since it is a very pregnant subject which can breed lot of sub threads quite easily.

Coming back to the topic of this thread.... whatever happened to the VL II special that went to Hialeah? Has it headed back up north yet?


----------



## erierail

Baggage cars could have many uses, storage, in service as gift shops. I hung out many a baggage car door or buying snacks in on main line train excursions. Same for the diners, main excursion and tourist roads have pur retired Amtrak cars to good use.


----------



## erierail

Our group

But with that said, I d imagine the most valuable portion of the baggage cars are their trucks, which are probably still in demand.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Coming back to the topic of this thread.... whatever happened to the VL II special that went to Hialeah? Has it headed back up north yet?









Things have changed. It'll be a little while longer before they emerge from Hialeah.


----------



## Thirdrail7

TiBike said:


> Any ideas on why the old baggage cars are still being used? All the new ones have been delivered and, it seems, accepted for service. There's been plenty of time for training – more than a year. Is there something wrong with the new cars, or is it just pure bureaucratic inertia?


It has to do with:



OBS said:


> Maybe some of the new Bags are still having modification work done to them before entering active service?





neroden said:


> I believe the new baggage cars are still being taken out of service for retrofits/bugfixes quite frequently. Hopefully that will be over within a few months.
> 
> I strongly suspect that only the 'best' of the Heritage baggage cars are still operating.


Additionally, some trains that previously ran with coach/bags for all or part of their trips are now running with full baggage cars. Next, there are few that are have already been in accidents and aren't available...and may not be for quite some time.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coming back to the topic of this thread.... whatever happened to the VL II special that went to Hialeah? Has it headed back up north yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Things have changed. It'll be a little while longer before they emerge from Hialeah.
Click to expand...

Let's be honest.. Things change on the RR to quickly..


----------



## andersone

The museum of Science and Industry in Chicago has done a very nice job with an original Zephyr. It is also where I learned the Burlington Budd was related to the Car Builder Budd


----------



## JohannFarley

andersone said:


> The museum of Science and Industry in Chicago has done a very nice job with an original Zephyr. It is also where I learned the Burlington Budd was related to the Car Builder Budd


I've been there, the restoration and preservation they did was amazing. If only every museum had the resources the did to perform such restorations.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

A special train left Miami at 5am this morning taking the new Viewliner IIs back north.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

AmtrakLKL said:


> A special train left Miami at 5am this morning taking the new Viewliner IIs back north.


Let's hope the cars passed this first field test with flying colors and maybe we'll see new ones on the line by end of year.


----------



## jis

I have heard from a usually reliable source to expect at least two new Diners in service by late May early June, and maybe more.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> I have heard from a usually reliable source to expect at least two new Diners in service by late May early June, and maybe more.


Wonder if the Lake Shore and the Meteor will get them,that's the logical choices??? ( then the Crescent and the Cardinal with the Silver Starvation hopefully getting back its Diner someday,!)


----------



## Acela150

Obviously they're going to put them on the Star. Oh. Wait. Lol!!


----------



## WoodyinNYC

If the new Viewliner diners aren't going back on the _Silver Star_, they could be used somewhere else. Like on a revived _Broadway Ltd_ or an extended _Pennsylvanian_. Or to make the _Capitol Ltd_ single-level, and redistribute its Superliners to needy trains across the Midwest and West.

Quite comfortable now with the idea of the two _Silvers_ at different price points, with/without a diner, on a largely overlapping route.

Much more interested in another East Coast-Chicago frequency that will give daylight stops to Pittsburgh-Cleveland-Toledo-Waterloo (Ft Wayne), and so would need Viewliner diners. Not absolutely sure it would need Viewliner sleepers; maybe 2+1 seating business class plus a diner would do it.

Still wish we had part of the option order, if not all 70 cars of it. We'll be needing more sleepers before the 25th one rolls off the line. Maybe after the election. I'm figuring 2 1/2 of the 5 candidates would be pro-Amtrak in the Oval Office, 2 1/2 would try to kill it. (And then Congress, God help us all.)


----------



## erierail

Woody I like your thinking, we definitely need day light service east of Chicago. Like to see a second train that could split in Cleveland with a section running to buffola and Pittsburgh.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

erierail said:


> ... we definitely need daylight service east of Chicago. Like to see a train split in Cleveland with sections running to Buffalo and Pittsburgh.


First let me say, this site, Amtraktrains, is usually better. But a similar site for the past 2 or 3 days was aflame with discussion about "what defunct line would you restore if you could?", which spun off a thread on "restoring the Broadway Ltd." Speculation with or without Viewliners.

Much of the inflaming was due to one poster who seems to think that Philly is or should be the Hub of the Universe, while everybody knows that CHI is the Hub of the Amtrak Universe. So I've been practicing my argument that CHI-TOL-CLE-PGH should be the primary focus of any added East Coast-CHI train. Go to railroad.net to read much more. But make sure you come back here to the better site. 

Of course, what those cities most need is a 110-mph service like St Louis-CHI and Detroit-towards-but-not-quit-near-to-CHI will soon enjoy. A 110-mph corridor CLE-TOL-Ft Wayne-CHI would cost at least $3+ Billion.

Good news is that probably $1 Billion, or $1.5 Billion, would be spent Union Station-deep into Indiana, a.k.a. South Of The Lake, to connect to the fast Michigan line. So Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, and the feds will have to come up with funds for that segment.

That will leave Indiana, Ohio, and the feds to finish up to CLE with $1.5 Billion or more. Another stretch CLE-PGH would cost at least $ half a Billion. But for $3 or $4 Billion you'd get 8 daily corridor trains CLE-CHI, and bonus, cut 2+ hours each way out of the trip times of the _Lake Shore_, the _Capitol_, and the _daylight train_ thru Ohio. So yeah, just one more Stimulus and we'll be needing a lot more Viewliners.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Since I managed to miss them, can anyone (safely) comment on the interior?


----------



## Ryan

WoodyinNYC said:


> Still wish we had part of the option order, if not all 70 cars of it. We'll be needing more sleepers before the 25th one rolls off the line. Maybe after the election. I'm figuring 2 1/2 of the 5 candidates would be pro-Amtrak in the Oval Office, 2 1/2 would try to kill it. (And then Congress, God help us all.)


I wonder which one you're counting as the half - I can only guess Kasich, who is also virulently anti-rail. I think that it's a safe bet that he, Cruz, and Trump would bode extremely poorly (along with the continued Republican-held House) for Amtrak.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ryan said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe after the election. I'm figuring 2 1/2 of the 5 candidates would be pro-Amtrak in the Oval Office, 2 1/2 would try to kill it.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder which one you're counting as the half -
Click to expand...

That would be Trump. I'm noting his ability to get on both (several?) sides of an issue within a single day. So, I'm thinking he's a solid 50/50 on this. And I ain't mad at him.

Bernie would grab a map and a magic marker, in a minute the map would look like NARP's map of future service, LOL, and he'd say, "Do this." Hillary would set up a study group, and things would move slower, but she'd do us no harm. So that's 2.

Then Kasich and Cruz want to shrink government and drown it in the bathtub, and they will want to kill Amtrak. So that's 2.

And Trump, 1/2 and 1/2.

I know this isn't a political site, and we're trying to be objective here. As you note, Kasich is really on the record on this subject. You say he's "virulently anti-rail", and I say he'd take that as a high compliment.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Thirdrail7 said:


> Since I managed to miss them, can anyone (safely) comment on the interior?


No comment. h34r:


----------



## Ryan

Got it - that would have been my second guess, but I'm not as hopeful as you are.


----------



## Agent

YouTube user SpeakerPolice filmed the northbound Viewliner special at Pine Castle, Florida on Friday.


----------



## Acela150

Agent said:


> YouTube user SpeakerPolice filmed the northbound Viewliner special at Pine Castle, Florida on Friday.



If only this guy had his camera on a tripod.. It's a good clip, but the tripod would make it a great clip!


----------



## tommylicious

Awesome! How soon before these beauties are deployed?


----------



## CCC1007

tommylicious said:


> Awesome! How soon before these beauties are deployed?


Could be a while yet, don't get your hopes up on this order, as every indication so far has been that it will slip again, as all other goals have.


----------



## Ryan

You must have missed this:



jis said:


> I have heard from a usually reliable source to expect at least two new Diners in service by late May early June, and maybe more.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Back to the talk about presidents and Amtrak, the theme sounds like Democrats are pro-Amtrak and Republicans are anti-Amtrak. It is worth noting that the two biggest rounds of cuts in Amtrak service happened while a Democrat was sitting in the White House. We've had seven years of Amtrak Joe as vice president yet I can't think of a single new or restarted route since Obama took office (we'll see about NOL-Florida). I'm not feeling that who sits in the White House will have any long term effect on Amtrak, Congress will have more of an effect. And Congress really hasn't had much effect on Amtrak either that I recall with one big exception.


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Back to the talk about presidents and Amtrak, the theme sounds like Democrats are pro-Amtrak and Republicans are anti-Amtrak. It is worth noting that the two biggest rounds of cuts in Amtrak service happened while a Democrat was sitting in the White House. We've had seven years of Amtrak Joe as vice president yet I can't think of a single new or restarted route since Obama took office (we'll see about NOL-Florida). I'm not feeling that who sits in the White House will have any long term effect on Amtrak, Congress will have more of an effect. And Congress really hasn't had much effect on Amtrak either that I recall with one big exception.


Are you sure you are in the right thread? Whatever makes you believe that this rant about presidents is appropriate for a thread on Viewliner delivery?


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Nice! I can't wait to see them in service!

However, have the Viewliner I sleepers still not been modified and upgraded for speeds up to 125 MPH? If not, how long is it going to take?

And why weren't they designed for 125 in the first place?


----------



## jis

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> And why weren't they designed for 125 in the first place?


They require some minor modifications. Thirdrail can probably give more details. As for why they were not done before, that was because It was not felt to be necessary that is why, since LD trains were already restricted to 110mph due to other reasons.


----------



## amtkstn

Once the new baggage cars were placed in service, the long distance trains could run 125. they were the last thing holding trains to 110.


----------



## edjbox

FYI

The Viewliner 1s have already been tested at 125 mph, most recently at the same time as a NJ Transit 125 mph rating locomotive test.


----------



## R30A

amtkstn said:


> Once the new baggage cars were placed in service, the long distance trains could run 125. they were the last thing holding trains to 110.


Viewliner I Sleepers and Heritage diners are only good for 110 at the moment. As mentioned above, that will likely change in the not distant future.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Oh, nice. Now the last ones that have to go will be the Heritage diners. Weren't the heritage cars the main restriction for speeds?


----------



## west point

edj has it correct. At least the V-1 sleeper could be certified to 125 ( actual test 130+ MPH ). What if any additional modifications needed can only be speculated. It may be that during the last visit of each V-1 sleeper to Beech that all necessary modifications have been met ? Maybe waiting for the snail's pace FRA to approve all the equipment tested. Believe that a V-1, ALP-45DP, and some other equipment was tested.


----------



## Ryan

If my memory serves, the VL1 testing for 125 didn't go as well as they hoped.

As far as why they were only designed/tested to 110, they were going to be (and have been for many years) used on trains with other cars that were limited to 110. Testing for higher would have been a waste of time and money.


----------



## MARC Rider

R30A said:


> amtkstn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once the new baggage cars were placed in service, the long distance trains could run 125. they were the last thing holding trains to 110.
> 
> 
> 
> Viewliner I Sleepers and Heritage diners are only good for 110 at the moment. As mentioned above, that will likely change in the not distant future.
Click to expand...

There all all-Amfleet trains with VL2 baggage cars that can now max out at 125. The Palmetto, the Carolinian, Northeast Regional 66/67. In fact, last Saturday, my GPS was showing the Palmetto doing 125 between Washington and Baltimore. For less than 5 minutes out of a total 13 hour journey from Savannah.


----------



## PVD

They have run almost 20 years as 110 mph cars, it's not like something was going to happen right away that got shortchanged. If anything of signifigance needs to be done, they are approaching mid life overhaul anyway.


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> There all all-Amfleet trains with VL2 baggage cars that can now max out at 125. The Palmetto, the Carolinian, Northeast Regional 66/67. In fact, last Saturday, my GPS was showing the Palmetto doing 125 between Washington and Baltimore. For less than 5 minutes out of a total 13 hour journey from Savannah.


The real lengthy high speed territories are all north of Baltimore anyway.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> ... about presidents and Amtrak, ... I'm not feeling that who sits in the White House will have any long term effect on Amtrak, Congress will have more of an effect. And Congress really hasn't had much effect on Amtrak either ... with one big exception.


Remember after the excitement of the Stimulus, Congress passed a budget for FY 2010 providing about $4 Billion for passenger rail projects.

Then the President proposed to invest another $4 Billion a year in rail going forward. But a midterm election changed control of Congress, and it has authorized not one extra dime.

Lessee, $4 B x 6 years, that's $24 Billion that the state corridors and Amtrak routes didn't get.

Gee, with that $24 Billion you could have ...

paid to replace the Amfleets

... and maybe the Superliners,

ordered the option 70 more Viewliners from CAF,

made daily runs of the _Sunset Ltd_ and the _Cardinal_,

restored service New Orleans-Mobile-Jacksonville-Orlando,

added another train to build the Mobile-NOLA corridor,

funded a Baton Rouge-NOLA corridor,

added a run of the _Pennsylvanian_,

restored the _Broadway Ltd._,

spent $250 million to cut 30 minutes from Indy-CHI

extended a CHI-Champaign-Carbondale train to Memphis,

finished another CREATE project to untangle ChicagoLand,

begun work on South of the Lake to complete the 110-mph corridor CHI-Detroit,

initiated St Paul-CHI corridor service,

added two more trains from Norfolk,

begun a "day train" to Atlanta,

started on the CLE-CHI corridor to take 2 hours out of all trains including the CL, LS, BL

built the New Portal Bridge,

and more.

Aside from that difference ...

Edited to be less political, as best I could do, given the facts.


----------



## erierail

Woody, you hit it on the head, the 2008 election brought high hopes for high speed rail, infrastructure improvements and as Amtrak. It was all dashed by mid year elections.

I was thinking maybe things didn't get too bad. But Amtrak continues to drift with no real plans for future. Heck can't even get a meal in the diner on star.

Unfortunately elections matter hopefully after this one, some compromises can be achieved and we can move forward on all fronts.


----------



## PRR 60

Let's keep this discussion to Viewliner II status issues. Please take politics to a new topic in Random Discussions.


----------



## edjbox

Ryan said:


> If my memory serves, the VL1 testing for 125 didn't go as well as they hoped.
> 
> As far as why they were only designed/tested to 110, they were going to be (and have been for many years) used on trains with other cars that were limited to 110. Testing for higher would have been a waste of time and money.


So what exactly happened to the viewliner 1 test then?


----------



## Ryan

I don't think anything more has been publicly discussed.


----------



## Acela150

amtkstn said:


> Once the new baggage cars were placed in service, the long distance trains could run 125. they were the last thing holding trains to 110.


As mentioned this is partially correct.. Trains such as the Carolinian and Palmetto can attain the 125 MPH speeds as they no longer have 110 MPH equipment in the consist. But, should a PV be attached to the train it will be limited to the MAS of the PV car. IINM most are limited to 110 MPH.



edjbox said:


> FYI
> 
> The Viewliner 1s have already been tested at 125 mph, most recently at the same time as a NJ Transit 125 mph rating locomotive test.


Yes this is true. I think that during such testing that they were also attempting to get 125 cert for the MLV's.. Not sure on that though..



CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Oh, nice. Now the last ones that have to go will be the Heritage diners. Weren't the heritage cars the main restriction for speeds?


I wouldn't say that the Heritage Cars were the main reason.. I think a contributing factor is that for many years the E60's that would pull the trains were limited to IIRC 90MPH. Also for an extended period of time the Engine Change from Electric to Diesel and Vise Versa took place in Philadelphia instead of DC. The P40/42 equipment is capped at 110. That is all the GE units can attain.



Ryan said:


> If my memory serves, the VL1 testing for 125 didn't go as well as they hoped.


Good memory.


----------



## erierail

Its hard to separate Amtrak from politics, but I will try my best to avoid future scoldings. Lol


----------



## Steve4031

Why is it necessary to scold. To scold anybody is disrespectful imho.


----------



## jis

Nobody scolded anyone. A moderator politely asked to move the political discussion out of this thread to one in Random Discussions. If even that is not allowed then it is not clear how one could meaningfully play the role of a moderator.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

I saw an interesting comment about future utilization of the new Viewliner 2 diners on Railroad.net and I am copying it below by someone with the name "Bostontrainguy".

"Don't know the exact savings but with my example of the Jacksonville turn of the dining equipment, you would go from a three day round-trip to a two day round-trip for the diner combo and crew. You would go from needing three diners and crews to two.

And you would double the seating capacity from 48 to 96 . . . for three sittings that raises potential people served from 144 to 294 per meal. Not everyone will eat in the diner of course, but seeing the tremendous response to the sold-out-first-sitting $8.95 Salisbury Steak special on our last trip, there is untapped potential in those captive coach cars.

At least maybe a better alternative to the drastic solution of just removing the diner!"

I have seen the Chicago to Carbondale trains with at least three extra Amfleet cafe cars coupled to the rear end so that they have enough axles on the train to activate the track signals as the CN requires. This is a horribly bad use of valuable equipment.

As Bostontrainguy suggested, Amtrak should assign these Amcafe cars to various single-level trains to get better utilization out of the dining cars and MAKE MORE MONEY instead of taking dining cars off of trains. This is a EASY revenue generator they could be implemented in a week or two depending on logistics of hiring back a laid-off waiters and ordering more food. The Amcafe car's storage space would naturally be used to store the additional needed stock items.

Some of the old retired baggage cars could be used to add a axles on the Chicago to Carbondale trains. I saw them assigned to the Hoosier State when Amtrak had it on days there was no deadhead equipment to lengthen that train for more axles to activate track circuits on the CSX. Bostontrainguy's idea of short-tuning the dining cars at Jacksonville, Florida is also interesting.

The politicians that are hurting Amtrak by saying the dining cars are losing money and coach passengers who don't use it are "subsidizing" the sleeping car passengers should go to the Embassy Suites hotel in Orlando Florida and hold a PROTEST press conference in front of the very PROFITABLE HOTEL that gives away free brunches every day. Because if they have anyone staying there that does not eat the brunch, that person would be subsidizing the other hotel customers, just like an Amtrak coach passenger that do not eat in the diner.....


----------



## jis

Interesting idea but weird to consider taking Dining Car off a southbound train during the daytime run through Florida, and run it through the night through the Carolinas and Georgia. Or are we talking of short turning them at JAX on the northward run? Which is weird too. I don't think it makes much sense.

What makes more sense is to figure out how to exercise the options so that if necessary trains can be run with two Diners ll the way. 

However, my guess is that all of this will undergo a drastic change anyway once Boardman exits stage right.


----------



## tommylicious

jis what changes do you expect?


----------



## jis

I don't know what the changes will be. Can't tell until we know who th new CEO is going to be. However, I cannot see continuation of this downhill spiral carry on. It has a feel of the waning days of the Warrington era. Hopefully the change will be for the better and a completely new approach for dealing with the various existing issues. It is even possible that the artificial attempts to make F&B a seperate P&L center will be ejected. Remember how the "glide to self sufficiency" of Warrington was quietly forgotten once Warrington left and his follower basically said "no way no how" and Congress swallowed its pride and the world carried on?

But only time will tell.

Also probably this discussion does not belong in this thread and needs its own thread.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

erierail said:


> Its hard to separate Amtrak from politics, but I will try my best to avoid future scoldings. Lol


I was half or more of this political discussion. But note that I was rebutting a counterfactual claim that *neither the President nor Congress has much effect on Amtrak!!!* I'm not sure that my reply was 'politics' so much as a 'civics' lesson. But I used one $24 Billion example as evidence to the contrary, and it took up a lot of space. LOL.

Still, I was not surprised at all to be reminded that this is not a political site. I doubt if you were, erierail. So I took your use of "scoldings" as intended to be amusing and playful.


----------



## jis

> So I took your use of "scoldings" as intended to be amusing and playful.


That is why I was surprised by Steve's retort. maybe he was feeling playfulness challenged that morning  The "Lol" was a dead giveaway. Then again maybe he was being playful too, and I was the one that was subtlety challenged :blink:


----------



## Steve4031

I didn't read all of the posts as I should have. I saw that there were new posts on this thread and clicked on it hoping to get more information about the view liners and was somewhat annoyed not to see anything. Sorry about that.


----------



## Seaboard92

Not a hundred percent positive but when I was arriving in NYP today on a transit train there appeared to be a VII diner on a southbound


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Seaboard92 said:


> Not a hundred percent positive but when I was arriving in NYP today on a transit train there appeared to be a VII diner on a southbound


Maybe 8400, the prototype


----------



## Dutchrailnut

8400 is NOT a Viewliner II it is one of ViewLiner I prototype cars build by Budd in 1983/4


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Dutchrailnut said:


> 8400 is NOT a Viewliner II it is one of ViewLiner I prototype cars build by Budd in 1983/4


I know that. But it can be easily be mistaken for the Viewliner II diner, right?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

not really, as no Viewliner Dinners have been delivered or accepted.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Dutchrailnut said:


> not really, as no Viewliner Dinners have been delivered or accepted.


??

He said it *appeared* to be a VLII diner. I said maybe it was the 8400 - which I believe some people might mistaken to be a VLII. Since the VLII diner was recently out for testing, he may have thought 8400 was it.


----------



## Thirdrail7

DSS&A said:


> Hi,
> 
> I saw an interesting comment about future utilization of the new Viewliner 2 diners on Railroad.net and I am copying it below by someone with the name "Bostontrainguy".
> 
> "Don't know the exact savings but with my example of the Jacksonville turn of the dining equipment, you would go from a three day round-trip to a two day round-trip for the diner combo and crew. You would go from needing three diners and crews to two.
> 
> And you would double the seating capacity from 48 to 96 . . . for three sittings that raises potential people served from 144 to 294 per meal. Not everyone will eat in the diner of course, but seeing the tremendous response to the sold-out-first-sitting $8.95 Salisbury Steak special on our last trip, there is untapped potential in those captive coach cars.
> 
> At least maybe a better alternative to the drastic solution of just removing the diner!"
> 
> I have seen the Chicago to Carbondale trains with at least three extra Amfleet cafe cars coupled to the rear end so that they have enough axles on the train to activate the track signals as the CN requires. This is a horribly bad use of valuable equipment.
> 
> As Bostontrainguy suggested, Amtrak should assign these Amcafe cars to various single-level trains to get better utilization out of the dining cars and MAKE MORE MONEY instead of taking dining cars off of trains. This is a EASY revenue generator they could be implemented in a week or two depending on logistics of hiring back a laid-off waiters and ordering more food. The Amcafe car's storage space would naturally be used to store the additional needed stock items.
> 
> Some of the old retired baggage cars could be used to add a axles on the Chicago to Carbondale trains. I saw them assigned to the Hoosier State when Amtrak had it on days there was no deadhead equipment to lengthen that train for more axles to activate track circuits on the CSX. Bostontrainguy's idea of short-tuning the dining cars at Jacksonville, Florida is also interesting.
> 
> The politicians that are hurting Amtrak by saying the dining cars are losing money and coach passengers who don't use it are "subsidizing" the sleeping car passengers should go to the Embassy Suites hotel in Orlando Florida and hold a PROTEST press conference in front of the very PROFITABLE HOTEL that gives away free brunches every day. Because if they have anyone staying there that does not eat the brunch, that person would be subsidizing the other hotel customers, just like an Amtrak coach passenger that do not eat in the diner.....



For the record, the axle count cars have been baggage cars for quite some time. There is a thread about it on this board. One of the reason for cutting the diner was to allow the use of a single diesel on the Star. Additionally, cutting cars in JAX may be fashionable on paper, but Jis hit the nail on the head. Additionally, who is adding and cutting the cars at JAX? Who will service the equipment as it sits there? Who is performing the calendar day inspection? Are there facilities available to keep this car on power and air while it sits there?


----------



## Caesar La Rock

That plan would work if it was done at Sanford. However, the Amtrak station at Sanford (the non Auto Train one) has been closed for almost 11 years now.


----------



## Ryan

AmtrakBlue said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> not really, as no Viewliner Dinners have been delivered or accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> ??He said it *appeared* to be a VLII diner. I said maybe it was the 8400 - which I believe some people might mistaken to be a VLII. Since the VLII diner was recently out for testing, he may have thought 8400 was it.
Click to expand...

Worry not, the reasonable people understood what you were saying. Some people just like to be difficult. The retired train driver is one of them.


----------



## R30A

And incorrect too! There have been two deliveries which have had Viewliner II Diners. They both happened to be 68000 and it went back to Elmira both times... but it was certainly delivered. But wait... he said Viewliner II DINNERs! I suppose that is correct. People have yet to be served dinner in a Viewliner II. 

I heard two should be in service in June from about as good of a source as there could be. I hope to be riding them soon!


----------



## PRR 60

R30A said:


> And incorrect too! There have been two deliveries which have had Viewliner II Diners. They both happened to be 68000 and it went back to Elmira both times... but it was certainly delivered. But wait... he said Viewliner II DINNERs! I suppose that is correct. People have yet to be served dinner in a Viewliner II.
> 
> I heard two should be in service in June from about as good of a source as there could be. I hope to be riding them soon!


I guess it depends on your definition of "delivered." Neither event was a "delivery" as defined as providing a car for in-service use. Both cases were sending cars to Amtrak as part of the QA/QC and design review process. When a car is sent to Amtrak with the intention of having that car entered on Amtrak active roster and placed in service, that will contractually constitute a "delivery."


----------



## CCC1007

I have heard unconfirmed reports of 61000 being used as the crew dorm for 29(22). Can anyone get a video or photo, or confirm that this is actually correct?


----------



## jordank66

I'm on 29 right now and there does seem to be a new Viewliner car. I'm in the sightseer lounge right now and can only see it going around a curve. I get off at Pittsburgh and can post a better picture of it.


----------



## KnightRail

CCC1007 said:


> I have heard unconfirmed reports of 61000 being used as the crew dorm for 29(22). Can anyone get a video or photo, or confirm that this is actually correct?


Being that 61000 is a full baggage car, I'm sure the crew is thrilled to be sleeping on luggage racks, in a car that is currently in South Florida.



jordank66 said:


> I'm on 29 right now and there does seem to be a new Viewliner car. I'm in the sightseer lounge right now and can only see it going around a curve. I get off at Pittsburgh and can post a better picture of it.


Ladies and gentlemen we need to get something straight here. Just because you see a Viewliner car in phase III(equal red white and blue stripes) does NOT mean it is a new CAF/LDSL/Viewliner II. 8400 is now in phase III, and so is at least one other Viewliner I sleeper 62043. 62043 is deadheading to the Beech. That is all.


----------



## CCC1007

There is a reason I asked for confirmation here, and thank you for confirming it is not 61000 as a dorm, even though it could be on the train. I still want to know what car it is.


----------



## KnightRail

CCC1007 said:


> There is a reason I asked for confirmation here, and thank you for confirming it is not 61000 as a dorm, even though it could be on the train. I still want to know what car it is.


62043. The car behind the locos and ahead of the baggage car on the referenced Capital Limited is 62043.


----------



## Acela150

There is also at least 1 VL I sleeper in Phase III "paint".


----------



## AmtrakLKL

KnightRail said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a reason I asked for confirmation here, and thank you for confirming it is not 61000 as a dorm, even though it could be on the train. I still want to know what car it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 62043. The car behind the locos and ahead of the baggage car on the referenced Capital Limited is 62043.
Click to expand...




Acela150 said:


> There is also at least 1 VL I sleeper in Phase III "paint".


62043 is the only Viewliner I currently in Phase III. It is enroute to Beech Grove for wreck repair.


----------



## CCC1007

AmtrakLKL said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a reason I asked for confirmation here, and thank you for confirming it is not 61000 as a dorm, even though it could be on the train. I still want to know what car it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 62043. The car behind the locos and ahead of the baggage car on the referenced Capital Limited is 62043.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is also at least 1 VL I sleeper in Phase III "paint".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 62043 is the only Viewliner I currently in Phase III. It is enroute to Beech Grove for wreck repair.
Click to expand...

Wreck repair? Would it be possible to get information on what happened?


----------



## TylerP42

AmtrakLKL said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a reason I asked for confirmation here, and thank you for confirming it is not 61000 as a dorm, even though it could be on the train. I still want to know what car it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 62043. The car behind the locos and ahead of the baggage car on the referenced Capital Limited is 62043.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is also at least 1 VL I sleeper in Phase III "paint".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 62043 is the only Viewliner I currently in Phase III. It is enroute to Beech Grove for wreck repair.
Click to expand...

What train is it on?


----------



## CCC1007

TylerP42 said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a reason I asked for confirmation here, and thank you for confirming it is not 61000 as a dorm, even though it could be on the train. I still want to know what car it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 62043. The car behind the locos and ahead of the baggage car on the referenced Capital Limited is 62043.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is also at least 1 VL I sleeper in Phase III "paint".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 62043 is the only Viewliner I currently in Phase III. It is enroute to Beech Grove for wreck repair.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What train is it on?
Click to expand...

29(22)


----------



## Thirdrail7

CCC1007 said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a reason I asked for confirmation here, and thank you for confirming it is not 61000 as a dorm, even though it could be on the train. I still want to know what car it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 62043. The car behind the locos and ahead of the baggage car on the referenced Capital Limited is 62043.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is also at least 1 VL I sleeper in Phase III "paint".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 62043 is the only Viewliner I currently in Phase III. It is enroute to Beech Grove for wreck repair.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wreck repair? Would it be possible to get information on what happened?
Click to expand...


I thought there was a thread on this board regarding this incident, but here is the gist of it.


----------



## KnightRail

Thirdrail7 said:


> I thought there was a thread on this board regarding this incident


There was definitely a thread here discussing the delay. Can't find it.


----------



## TylerP42

a bit tired, but trying to follow... If the cars got "tore up" How are they dead heading? What exactly do they mean by "tore up"?


----------



## KnightRail

TylerP42 said:


> a bit tired, but trying to follow... If the cars got "tore up" How are they dead heading? What exactly do they mean by "tore up"?


Under car damage of some sort.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

TylerP42 said:


> a bit tired, but trying to follow... If the cars got "tore up" How are they dead heading? What exactly do they mean by "tore up"?





KnightRail said:


> TylerP42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> a bit tired, but trying to follow... If the cars got "tore up" How are they dead heading? What exactly do they mean by "tore up"?
> 
> 
> 
> Under car damage of some sort.
Click to expand...

Look under a Viewliner next time you see one. There is a lot of equipment hanging under the car including air conditioning packs, water tank, waste tank, battery boxes, air brakes, etc. Hialeah repaired what they could so the car could be moved to Beech to fix the rest of the damage. It was pretty ugly.


----------



## jis

Viewliners still have under floor A/C units? I thought like most other modern cars the A/C units are now compact sealed units above the vestibule along the roof line. Well maybe not.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Viewliners still have under floor A/C units? I thought like most other modern cars the A/C units are now compact sealed units above the vestibule along the roof line. Well maybe not.


I'm pretty sure they are still under the car body on a Viewliner I. I don't know where the Viewliner IIs will house the equipment but I assume it will be in an area with easy access, which doesn't include the roof line.


----------



## jis

Yeah well. In the usual European stuff they have sealed units that fit between the vestibule ceiling and the roof. Typically there are two units in each car, one at each end. That is the way it is apparently in the Brightline Viaggios. If one breaks they just lift the whole unit out and plop another one in. There is nothing that can be opened up and fixed while it is in place. So I was just wondering.

Aren't the A/C units on the rooftop in the Acelas?


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Aren't the A/C units on the rooftop in the Acelas?


I believe they are, but Acelas have a custom built, designated facility that every train returns to within a calendar day (unless it breaks down.) This is not true for a viewliner or most of the fleet, so things need to be in an area where Amtrak and their contractors at outlying points can reach them.


----------



## PVD

New NYC subway cars, and LIRR/MNRR cars have modular roof AC also. VL1s were built 20 years ago, and were designed a few years before that. The bigger question is- are they easier to service on the new ones?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Viewliners still have under floor A/C units? I thought like most other modern cars the A/C units are now compact sealed units above the vestibule along the roof line. Well maybe not.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they are still under the car body on a Viewliner I. I don't know where the Viewliner IIs will house the equipment but I assume it will be in an area with easy access, which doesn't include the roof line.
Click to expand...

The AC packs are underneath the Viewliner IIs as well.


----------



## R30A

Roofmounted A/C units are easier to repair, but they seem far less functional in general, as they take up substantially more space in the roof, which seems to leave little room for the air distribution ducts.


----------



## jis

I will admit I know nothing about the duct design issues, but I will note that even in the Indian regular 40C plus ambient, the A/C LHB coaches with roof mounted sealed units have no problem freezing ones rear end off if the thermostat is improperly set.


----------



## Agent

If it's not to late to add this here, I found this video of Amtrak #29 with the extra Viewliner at Connellsville, Pennsylvania on April 22 by YouTube user TboltSiren1000T.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

For the past half-month, has anyone spotted any diners out on the road?


----------



## A Voice

I believe the three test cars - Baggage-dorm, diner, and sleeper - went back to CAF on or around the 16th of April. So no, nothing in the past few weeks (aside from Viewliner I #8400). .


----------



## AmtrakLKL

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> For the past half-month, has anyone spotted any diners out on the road?


The Viewliner I diner, 8400, is on today's 98.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Sweet!

And also, with all Viewliners (Viewliner II Baggage Car, Viewliner I Sleepers, and Viewliner Prototype Diner #8400), plus Amfleets, would 98 be able to reach 125 MPH, or are they still limited to 110?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Sweet!
> 
> And also, with all Viewliners (Viewliner II Baggage Car, Viewliner I Sleepers, and Viewliner Prototype Diner #8400), plus Amfleets, would 98 be able to reach 125 MPH, or are they still limited to 110?


Viewliner Is are authorized for 110 MPH.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> Sweet!
> 
> And also, with all Viewliners (Viewliner II Baggage Car, Viewliner I Sleepers, and Viewliner Prototype Diner #8400), plus Amfleets, would 98 be able to reach 125 MPH, or are they still limited to 110?


I have no idea, but today's 98 is predicted to arrive in PHL and NYP over an hour early tomorrow.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I have no idea, but today's 98 is predicted to arrive in PHL and NYP over an hour early tomorrow.


Two words: Schedule padding.


----------



## pennyk

AmtrakLKL said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea, but today's 98 is predicted to arrive in PHL and NYP over an hour early tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Two words: Schedule padding.
Click to expand...

and that can change many many many times


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet!
> 
> And also, with all Viewliners (Viewliner II Baggage Car, Viewliner I Sleepers, and Viewliner Prototype Diner #8400), plus Amfleets, would 98 be able to reach 125 MPH, or are they still limited to 110?
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea, but today's 98 is predicted to arrive in PHL and NYP over an hour early tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Yesterday's 98 was running around an hour late at Baltimore this morning...


----------



## Acela150

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet!
> 
> And also, with all Viewliners (Viewliner II Baggage Car, Viewliner I Sleepers, and Viewliner Prototype Diner #8400), plus Amfleets, would 98 be able to reach 125 MPH, or are they still limited to 110?
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea, but today's 98 is predicted to arrive in PHL and NYP over an hour early tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Hope you didn't jinx it..


----------



## TylerP42

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet!
> 
> And also, with all Viewliners (Viewliner II Baggage Car, Viewliner I Sleepers, and Viewliner Prototype Diner #8400), plus Amfleets, would 98 be able to reach 125 MPH, or are they still limited to 110?
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea, but today's 98 is predicted to arrive in PHL and NYP over an hour early tomorrow.
Click to expand...

That's padding.


----------



## ayezee

AmtrakLKL said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the past half-month, has anyone spotted any diners out on the road?
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliner I diner, 8400, is on today's 98.
Click to expand...

I was pleased to see it getting on in Savannah earlier


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Acela150 said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweet!
> 
> And also, with all Viewliners (Viewliner II Baggage Car, Viewliner I Sleepers, and Viewliner Prototype Diner #8400), plus Amfleets, would 98 be able to reach 125 MPH, or are they still limited to 110?
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea, but today's 98 is predicted to arrive in PHL and NYP over an hour early tomorrow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hope you didn't jinx it..
Click to expand...

Not too much. Its still running about 30 minutes early!

All due to the VL Diner, 8400, being in the consist.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> All shells have been completed. A batch will be released in April for testing, both testing testing, and testing in revenue testing.
> 
> ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.





jis said:


> I have heard from a usually reliable source to expect at least two new Diners in service by late May early June, and maybe more.



This isn't working out too well, is it? Did you two happen to get years? Maybe your sources meant 2018 and you misunderstood them.


----------



## jis

Well you know, s*it happens. When he said it he said 2016. But no one can predict what may or may not happen with CAF. Not even folks at Amtrak, apparently.  Do you have anything more on it or you just had some free time to kill?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thirdrail7 said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All shells have been completed. A batch will be released in April for testing, both testing testing, and testing in revenue testing.
> 
> ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard from a usually reliable source to expect at least two new Diners in service by late May early June, and maybe more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This isn't working out too well, is it? Did you two happen to get years? Maybe your sources meant 2018 and you misunderstood them.
Click to expand...

Ok so what new information do you have? Or are you just Trolling this weekend.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Hmmm. Let's see. Here's some new information:

I don't believe the two new diners will be in service by late May or early June.

I pretty sure revenue testing didn't occurred in April.

I tend to not troll but since I didn't attend the meeting like you, I didn't want to assume that the information you posted was for this year without asking...which I did.

It was meant to be light hearted and make fun of the fact the cars that were tested seemed to have disappeared without a trace...like an American Idol winner.

I would have posted a meme or an emoticon with my post to make sure everyone knew is was a joke, but I remember someone crying like Nancy Kerrigan the last time, so I let it ride own its own.

Always go with your gut instinct.

Thank you.


----------



## StriderGDM

Crying like Nancy Kerrigan or like Tonya Harding?


----------



## jis

Well the only gut instinct one can apparently go on is everything at Amtrak is more or less random. It will happen if and when it happens  In the same lighthearted spirit of course without bringing Nancy or Tonya into the mix 

By the way, the guy who said it was Brian in a conversation at the NARP reception, at least in my case. It is possible that at the ESPA meeting the source was the same, but maybe not. You can go and ask him what his current prognostication is. I do realize that he can only estimate things based on information available at hand at a given time. He is on a trip out west I gather.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> It was meant to be light hearted and make fun of the fact the cars that were tested seemed to have disappeared without a trace...like an American Idol winner.







StriderGDM said:


> Crying like Nancy Kerrigan or like Tonya Harding?


----------



## Ryan




----------



## Steve4031

Let's get back on track.


----------



## Ryan

Steve4031 said:


> Let's get back on track.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Thirdrail7 said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All shells have been completed. A batch will be released in April for testing, both testing testing, and testing in revenue testing.
> 
> ESPA / NARP 2016 meeting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard from a usually reliable source to expect at least two new Diners in service by late May early June, and maybe more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This isn't working out too well, is it? Did you two happen to get years? Maybe your sources meant 2018 and you misunderstood them.
Click to expand...

Wow. Almost this exact thought popped into my head at 79 MPH earlier today. I hadn't given the new cars a second thought since they left Hialeah however many moons ago.

Going to have to start pulling dining cars off other routes as the Heritage cars are put out to pasture and Amtrak keeps pushing towards zero food and beverage loss. h34r:


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

jis said:


> By the way, the guy who said it was Brian in a conversation at the NARP reception, at least in my case. It is possible that at the ESPA meeting the source was the same, but maybe not. You can go and ask him what his current prognostication is. I do realize that he can only estimate things based on information available at hand at a given time. He is on a trip out west I gather.




Your source was the same person who talked at NARP/ESPA. It was a public meeting with media invited. Brian made such statement from the podium.


----------



## neroden

So, I'm guessing CAF is still having design and/or production problems. I'm sure Amtrak would love to (a) get rid of the Heritage dining cars, and (b) have more revenue roomettes to sell during the busy season, so we must presume that the "test cars" are still not up to a level of Amtrak's satisfaction.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Or Amtrak is doing everything possible to delay the roll out to save cash.


----------



## neroden

No, that would be idiotic behavior, and I don't think they're THAT dumb.

The Heritage cars are bleeding cash every day they have to be maintained.


----------



## afigg

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Or Amtrak is doing everything possible to delay the roll out to save cash.


I doubt that as well. Besides the effect on Amtrak revenue, maintenance issues for the Heritage diners, and that Amtrak has presumably made some progress payments for the cars that have not been delivered yet, CAF is losing money on the contract. If CAF had new cars ready to ship, what incentive could Amtrak offer to CAF to sit on the cars and further delayed getting paid? At this point, option orders appear to be very unlikely along with any follow-on contract from Amtrak.

Perhaps we need to come up with applicable nicknames for the Viewliner IIs. How about the Viewlaters? And if CAF fails to ever deliver the remaining 60 cars in the order, then they become the Viewnevers.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

So we agree that a cash short company would not find a reason, to hold off on taken deliver of new equipment.

When I had my house built, the payments were spread over the timeline. With the last one due at the end.

I am glad my thinking could never be true. 

But....


----------



## StriderGDM

Sure, but that's akin to not being able to take possession of your house until you pay for it. Meanwhile your monthly rent payments are higher than the final payment and mortgage payments will be.

Are you going to be withholding that final payment so you can keep paying rent on an apartment that is falling apart and costs more and more every month?


----------



## jis

But if you really have cash flow problem you'll probably give up your rental and pitch a tent in the park. I am not convinced that that is the case here, but it is conceivable and the progressive sidelining of Heritage Diners with nothing to replace them is remotely possible to explain using the pitching a tent in the park scenario. As I said I am not at all convinced that is the case, but it is within the realm of completely hypothetical possibilities.


----------



## Ryan

So we agree that a cash short company would not find a reason, to hold off on taken deliver of new equipment.

When I had my house built, the payments were spread over the timeline. With the last one due at the end.


I am glad my thinking could never be true.


----------



## busboy

I'm booked on the LSL in September. What are the chances of a new sleeper or diner on that train??


----------



## Palmetto

busboy said:


> I'm booked on the LSL in September. What are the chances of a new sleeper or diner on that train??


I would say that at this point, your crystal ball is as good as anyone else's on here, Thirdrail perhaps excepted!


----------



## WoodyinNYC

busboy said:


> I'm booked on the LSL in September. What are the chances of a new sleeper or diner on that train??


If we're lucky there could be Viewliner diners in the active fleet. Or not.

The original plan was for baggage cars, diners, crew-dorms, and, last in this order, the sleepers. The baggage cars have been delivered and are in service. The other cars not.

There's been plenty of time to change the plans, but don't count on a Viewliner II sleeper by September.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

busboy said:


> I'm booked on the LSL in September. What are the chances of a new sleeper or diner on that train??


I'd say your chances of no diner at all on the LSL is better than seeing a VLII diner or sleeper in September.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakLKL said:


> busboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm booked on the LSL in September. What are the chances of a new sleeper or diner on that train??
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say your chances of no diner at all on the LSL is better than seeing a VLII diner or sleeper in September.
Click to expand...

I'd say there is zero chance of a sleeper but there may be slight chance a diner may be in service by then. It would likely be deployed in Silver service and New York, being desperate for a diner would rob it from train 98 (despite being instructed to leave it in Silver service) and stuff it into the Lake Shore, throwing everything into chaos.

I can see it happening. ^_^


----------



## prewarlionelrailfan

Rode the Crescent last week between Atlanta to Washington D.C. Northbound 19 had a business class coach with the sleepers and a heritage dinner. Southbound 20 also had the business class coach two cafe cars and no dinner. The crew managed to maintain most of the menu, but everything was clearly microwaved. Not so good.

Adding the business class coach definitely changes the once intimate and quieter configuration to a more populated and active environment. I actually like the change. There are more people and space to interact with/within. I think it will be challenging however to fit everyone in a new Viewliner II diner, should that actually come about with a business class coach.

The Southbound train with the cafe cars did seem to move faster through the Northern stretch from Washington to North Carolina. The train status app even estimated an early arrival for us in Atlanta, however the pace was lost and we suffered delays in Georgia putting us behind.


----------



## PaulM

prewarlionelrailfan said:


> Adding the business class coach definitely changes the once intimate and quieter configuration to a more populated and active environment. I actually like the change. There are more people and space to interact with/within. I think it will be challenging however to fit everyone in a new Viewliner II diner, should that actually come about with a business class coach.


I'm sorry, but I don't understand a word of this.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

The Viewliner Diners and other cars have been seriously delayed and the diners still haven't even been taken to Hialeah yet.

Why was such an order of cars seriously delayed?


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

prewarlionelrailfan--

Why was there no diner on the Southbound Crescent? (Also, I think 19 is the southbound and 20 is the northbound? I think the numbers in your post got reversed by mistake.)


----------



## Thirdrail7

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> The Viewliner Diners and other cars have been seriously delayed and the diners still haven't even been taken to Hialeah yet.
> 
> Why was such an order of cars seriously delayed?


There have been numerous issues that have been documented multiple times in this thread. I can't say I blame you for not rifling through the thread to find it though. this board seriously needs a "search this thread" function.



Mystic River Dragon said:


> prewarlionelrailfan--
> 
> Why was there no diner on the Southbound Crescent? (Also, I think 19 is the southbound and 20 is the northbound? I think the numbers in your post got reversed by mistake.)



If multiple heritage dining cars are shopped, there is little recourse since the available/required margin is razor thin until the CAF cars come online. There's been talk of tentative dates but I'm not going to bother to hint or post since we've seen them come and go in the past.


----------



## Bob Dylan

What's the "Over and Under" on the Diners showing up before Uncle Joe rides off into the Sunset on Beech Grove? (pun intended)


----------



## GaSteve

Mystic River Dragon said:


> prewarlionelrailfan--
> 
> Why was there no diner on the Southbound Crescent? (Also, I think 19 is the southbound and 20 is the northbound? I think the numbers in your post got reversed by mistake.)


That happens fairly often when there is not an available car. They add a second lounge car and sue it as a diner with a limited menu.

BTW, 8400 was on 19/20 earlier this week. Depending on equipment rotation, might be on 19 tomorrow.


----------



## JohannFarley

GaSteve said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> prewarlionelrailfan--
> 
> Why was there no diner on the Southbound Crescent? (Also, I think 19 is the southbound and 20 is the northbound? I think the numbers in your post got reversed by mistake.)
> 
> 
> 
> That happens fairly often when there is not an available car. They add a second lounge car and sue it as a diner with a limited menu.BTW, 8400 was on 19/20 earlier this week. Depending on equipment rotation, might be on 19 tomorrow.
Click to expand...

I saw 8400 go by Edison station a few days back. I don't know what train it was on, I'm not great with consists. But the consist went VII baggage, 1 Amfleet coach, then 2 VI sleepers, 8400, then the rest of the amfleets. I saw the same consist yesterday but with a heritage diner. I've never seen an amfleet in between the viewliners like that before, I was wondering if anyone knows what would prompt that or if it's normal? I originally thought it was for testing 8400 but it was also the same on the one with the heritage diner.


----------



## CCC1007

JohannFarley said:


> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> prewarlionelrailfan--
> 
> Why was there no diner on the Southbound Crescent? (Also, I think 19 is the southbound and 20 is the northbound? I think the numbers in your post got reversed by mistake.)
> 
> 
> 
> That happens fairly often when there is not an available car. They add a second lounge car and sue it as a diner with a limited menu.BTW, 8400 was on 19/20 earlier this week. Depending on equipment rotation, might be on 19 tomorrow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw 8400 go by Edison station a few days back. I don't know what train it was on, I'm not great with consists. But the consist went VII baggage, 1 Amfleet coach, then 2 VI sleepers, 8400, then the rest of the amfleets. I saw the same consist yesterday but with a heritage diner. I've never seen an amfleet in between the viewliners like that before, I was wondering if anyone knows what would prompt that or if it's normal? I originally thought it was for testing 8400 but it was also the same on the one with the heritage diner.
Click to expand...

That is the current consist of the Crescent, with business class between the baggage car and the sleepers.


----------



## KnightRail

JohannFarley said:


> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> prewarlionelrailfan--
> 
> Why was there no diner on the Southbound Crescent? (Also, I think 19 is the southbound and 20 is the northbound? I think the numbers in your post got reversed by mistake.)
> 
> 
> 
> That happens fairly often when there is not an available car. They add a second lounge car and sue it as a diner with a limited menu.BTW, 8400 was on 19/20 earlier this week. Depending on equipment rotation, might be on 19 tomorrow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw 8400 go by Edison station a few days back. I don't know what train it was on, I'm not great with consists. But the consist went VII baggage, 1 Amfleet coach, then 2 VI sleepers, 8400, then the rest of the amfleets. I saw the same consist yesterday but with a heritage diner. I've never seen an amfleet in between the viewliners like that before, I was wondering if anyone knows what would prompt that or if it's normal? I originally thought it was for testing 8400 but it was also the same on the one with the heritage diner.
Click to expand...

The lineup you describe is the current consist order of the Crescent. The coach between the bag and sleepers is sold as business class.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

CCC1007 said:


> That is the current consist of the Crescent, with business class between the baggage car and the sleepers.





KnightRail said:


> The lineup you describe is the current consist order of the Crescent. The coach between the bag and sleepers is sold as business class.


So one has those BC passengers wandering thru the sleepers whenever they like? There goes the neighborhood. :angry2:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the current consist of the Crescent, with business class between the baggage car and the sleepers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lineup you describe is the current consist order of the Crescent. The coach between the bag and sleepers is sold as business class.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So one has those BC passengers wandering thru the sleepers whenever they like? There goes the neighborhood. :angry2:
Click to expand...

Though this might entice some to upgrade to rooms the next time. That could be a good thing for Amtrak's wallet


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

AmtrakBlue said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the current consist of the Crescent, with business class between the baggage car and the sleepers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lineup you describe is the current consist order of the Crescent. The coach between the bag and sleepers is sold as business class.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So one has those BC passengers wandering thru the sleepers whenever they like? There goes the neighborhood. :angry2:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Though this might entice some to upgrade to rooms the next time. That could be a good thing for Amtrak's wallet
Click to expand...

Are business class passengers permitted to use the showers?


----------



## GaSteve

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is the current consist of the Crescent, with business class between the baggage car and the sleepers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> The lineup you describe is the current consist order of the Crescent. The coach between the bag and sleepers is sold as business class.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So one has those BC passengers wandering thru the sleepers whenever they like? There goes the neighborhood. :angry2:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Though this might entice some to upgrade to rooms the next time. That could be a good thing for Amtrak's wallet
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are business class passengers permitted to use the showers?
Click to expand...

No, nor do they get meals included in the fare. The main thing they get is a coach with a lot fewer people and no foot traffic passing through. Oh, and they do get complimentary soft drinks, although they have to come to the lounge car to get them.


----------



## afigg

We need some rumors, from reliable sources or non-reliable off the wall rumors if that is all that is available, on what the heck is going on with the Viewliner II diners, sleepers, and bag-dorms. Is CAF is undertaking a redesign, total rebuild or reconfiguration of the HVAC system or what?

At this rate, Brightline will have all new Siemens trainsets in service and Alstom will be testing a first article HSR trainset on the NEC before the Viewliner II order is completed.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

GaSteve said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> So one has those BC passengers wandering thru the sleepers whenever they like? There goes the neighborhood. :angry2:
> 
> 
> 
> Though this might entice some to upgrade to rooms the next time. That could be a good thing for Amtrak's wallet
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are business class passengers permitted to use the showers?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, nor do they get meals included in the fare. The main thing they get is a coach with a lot fewer people and no foot traffic passing through. Oh, and they do get complimentary soft drinks, although they have to come to the lounge car to get them.
Click to expand...

Do the BC people know that, and who's actually going to stop them since they are given full unrestricted access to the sleepers?

Sorry, but I certainly see them using the showers, and helping themselves to the sleeper's coffee, juice, bottled water.


----------



## Palmetto

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Do the BC people know that, and who's actually going to stop them since they are given full unrestricted access to the sleepers?
> 
> Sorry, but I certainly see them using the showers, and helping themselves to the sleeper's coffee, juice, bottled water.


They have to obtain a towel from the sleeping car attendant, don't they? If so, there's your control on who gets to use the shower.

Taking a shower without having a towel is not a good thing.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the BC people know that, and who's actually going to stop them since they are given full unrestricted access to the sleepers?
> 
> Sorry, but I certainly see them using the showers, and helping themselves to the sleeper's coffee, juice, bottled water.
> 
> 
> 
> They have to obtain a towel from the sleeping car attendant, don't they? If so, there's your control on who gets to use the shower.
> 
> Taking a shower without having a towel is not a good thing.
Click to expand...

Nah, just open the window in the vestibule and air dry.


----------



## tricia

Palmetto said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the BC people know that, and who's actually going to stop them since they are given full unrestricted access to the sleepers?
> 
> Sorry, but I certainly see them using the showers, and helping themselves to the sleeper's coffee, juice, bottled water.
> 
> 
> 
> They have to obtain a towel from the sleeping car attendant, don't they? If so, there's your control on who gets to use the shower.
> 
> Taking a shower without having a towel is not a good thing.
Click to expand...

Towels are usually kept in or near the shower room, where passengers can help themselves.


----------



## R30A

I was under the impression that part of the reason of the move was so that they COULD use the coffee machine and juice from the sleepers. Such was a feature, not a bug.


----------



## GaSteve

R30A said:


> I was under the impression that part of the reason of the move was so that they COULD use the coffee machine and juice from the sleepers. Such was a feature, not a bug.


The service description on the Amtrak website make no mention of coffee and juice from the sleepers, only complimentary soft drinks.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

BTW, a new thread was started for discussing BC using showers, etc.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/68540-business-class-access-to-showers/


----------



## daybeers

Here's a cool video of Beech Grove from July 8th:



P.S. This isn't my channel


----------



## JohannFarley

I really wish all of those old heritage cars in the back yard were used for something. If not by Amtrak at least sell them to private owners or donate them to museums. I know scrapping them is lucrative but they could be doing so much more than just sitting there. They could sell them to Iowa Pacific since they are now obsolete on any Amtrak train. I assume IP could restore them and have them available to use on any new routes they could possibly get similar to the Hoosier State.


----------



## Ryan

I'm not sure what part of "70 years old. Falling apart. Frames destroyed. Completely unredeemable." is so difficult to wrap ones head around.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure what part of "70 years old. Falling apart. Frames destroyed. Completely unredeemable." is so difficult to wrap ones head around.


Are you talking about Heritage Equipment or we 70+ year olds Ryan? LOL


----------



## JohannFarley

Well they are clearly together enough to be sitting on their own wheels day in and day out for who knows how long. Did anyone think that they are only unredeemable to Amtrak because they don't serve a purpose on the fleet anymore and therefore funds would not be shoveled into them? Any car that can still sit on its wheels can be restored by someone with the money and use for it. And also, no need to be hostile, I simply asked a question. You cannot assume that every person on this forum has read each one of the millions of words, and is all-knowing as you seem to think you are. Its an extremely rude way of talking to new members and I see it all the time on here.


----------



## A Voice

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure what part of "70 years old. Falling apart. Frames destroyed. Completely unredeemable." is so difficult to wrap ones head around.


I'm not sure "completely unredeemable" is literally accurate; I've little doubt that if someone were willing to write a big enough check, the cars are repairable (note VIA, among others). However, what we all should realize you're not going to spend big bucks on a car which will be retired within a couple months. Indeed, even if Amtrak sent these cars to Beech Grove for a rebuild, it's unlikely at this point they would be done before their replacements are (finally) ready.


----------



## Ryan

You've got to ask yourself a question - if you replace every single part on a railcar, such that none of the original 70 year old material is present, did you actually restore the car, or build a replica? Because that's pretty much what it would take.



Bob Dylan said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what part of "70 years old. Falling apart. Frames destroyed. Completely unredeemable." is so difficult to wrap ones head around.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about Heritage Equipment or we 70+ year olds Ryan? LOL
Click to expand...

On the advice of counsel, I'd like to invoke my 5th amendment rights at this juncture. h34r:


----------



## JohannFarley

Full restorations can often require most or all of the parts to be replaced with ones from other original sources like parts cars or custom-made. Lets use a car for example. If you do an off-body restoration of say a '64 1/2 mustang, and you need to replace 95% of the parts, is it only 5% mustang and 95% replica of a mustang, or a restored mustang with new pieces ready to serve a new life with new parts that allow a piece of history to operate once again?


----------



## DSS&A

Hi, Isaw 5 diners, a Heritage (converted passenger car) baggage car an a few other cars coupled together at the Chicago yard in a hospital train type consist yesterday. Two of the diners were the 8502 and 8558.


----------



## KnightRail

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure what part of "70 years old. Falling apart. Frames destroyed. Completely unredeemable." is so difficult to wrap ones head around.


Amen to this.

Liability is a big factor in regards to equipment being transferred to other parties, especially when it is not up to par. Best way to CYA, scrap it.


----------



## ronkstevens

I'll take a worn out 60 year old car to replace a worn out 90 year old car. I'd rather get an old dining car and work on that than have to build an entire kitchen car from scratch in a car that most likely is in worse condition than the Amtrak heritage fleet.

An excursion railroads needs and operating demands are considerably different than what these cars have been used for in their regular life.

As long as the cars can pass inspection then why not auction them off, with the minimum bid slightly above scrap price


----------



## Ryan

If they could pass inspection, they wouldn't be parked in CHI while 48/49 and 91/92 go without dining cars.


----------



## ronkstevens

I can have an automobile that can pass a safety inspection, but have no desire to take it on a trip because I know there will be problems.

There is a big difference between Amtrak's operations and the operations of an excursion railroad. For example, Amtrak can put 1000 miles on a car in two days. Excursion railroads are lucky if they see that kind of mileage in a year.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

JohannFarley said:


> Full restorations can often require most or all of the parts to be replaced with ones from other original sources like parts cars or custom-made. Lets use a car for example. If you do an off-body restoration of say a '64 1/2 mustang, and you need to replace 95% of the parts, is it only 5% mustang and 95% replica of a mustang, or a restored mustang with new pieces ready to serve a new life with new parts that allow a piece of history to operate once again?


I guess it depends if the restored Heritage car can still pass the "all numbers matching" test. Otherwise, its simply a repli-car.


----------



## dlagrua

I believe that anything can be rebuilt/restored but the economics of the task may not present a positive picture. For instance you could just take an old car body and drop it onto a new frame having new trucks but is this an economical approach? Certainly VIA rail has a way to keep the vintage cars going so we can only wonder what method they are using.

At this point new Amtrak dining cars are badly needed on the Eastern routes ( and way overdue) so one can only wonder when they will be coming off the assembly line. Does anyone know what is causing the delay?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

(Mod, cancel my last post)

For the people who don't understand how VIA keeps there cars in good condition:

VIA has a fleet of Budd cars all built to the same spec, which are run 2-3 times a week on between one and 4 trains depending on the season.

Amtrak had a fleet of 20 cars since the mid 90s all of which were different- how different? From different fleets, built in different years, to totally different specs, several of which were not even built as diners. Maintaining that fleet is harder. Much harder.

Then you take that and have those cars running in a configuration of 15-16 of the 20 cars rolling on a train on a given day. That's a bit different.

Picture a Cadillac driven by Granny to the market a few times a month for 20 years. Now imagine a pickup truck driven an average of 50 miles a day to a construction site for hauling gravel- for 20 years.

Do you think one might be a candidate for reuse and one might not?


----------



## prewarlionelrailfan

Just got back to Atlanta on the Crescent #19 today. Both it and #20 Crescent on my way up to Washington two weeks ago had the old configuration, 1 baggage car, 2 view liners, 1 Heritage dinner, and the coach cars. Gone were the business coach, the cafe cars, and the microwaved meals. (thank goodness for the last item)

Strange how the business class just disappeared. Traffic in the dinner car was back to usual as well, just like old times.

BTW, thanks for the correction on my previous post. I totally mixed up the 19 & 20 numbers.


----------



## GaSteve

prewarlionelrailfan said:


> Just got back to Atlanta on the Crescent #19 today. Both it and #20 Crescent on my way up to Washington two weeks ago had the old configuration, 1 baggage car, 2 view liners, 1 Heritage dinner, and the coach cars. Gone were the business coach, the cafe cars, and the microwaved meals. (thank goodness for the last item)
> 
> Strange how the business class just disappeared. Traffic in the dinner car was back to usual as well, just like old times.
> 
> BTW, thanks for the correction on my previous post. I totally mixed up the 19 & 20 numbers.


Excuse me, but I was on 19/20 last Wed/Thurs 7/20&21 and the business class coach was definitely in the consist and was also present on the following two days confirmed by YouTube videos. As a matter of fact, the consist I was on included the 8400 Viewliner diner.

Take a look here:


----------



## PVD

Is it possible one of the "coach" cars was a split club/lounge? Those have B/C at one end and cafe car and tables in the rest of the car. Just asking because they still sell B/C on that train. You might not need a whole B/C coach, but the train is going to have a café/lounge in one form or another. Those 2+1 split cars are pretty comfortable.


----------



## PaulM

Palmetto said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the BC people know that, and who's actually going to stop them since they are given full unrestricted access to the sleepers?
> 
> Sorry, but I certainly see them using the showers, and helping themselves to the sleeper's coffee, juice, bottled water.
> 
> 
> 
> They have to obtain a towel from the sleeping car attendant, don't they? If so, there's your control on who gets to use the shower.
Click to expand...

Not true. Fresh towels are usually in the shower changing area, if and not usually stored in the luggage rack (superliner only of course). I've never had to ask for a towel. Or you could supply your own. I would have no qualms about using them. In all my travels, I've hardly ever waited for the shower.

I do think placing BC between the baggage car and sleepers a bit odd. Between sleepers and diner or coach and cafe seems more logical.


----------



## west point

Amtrak appears to be sidelining heritage diners as crack in structure are detected. Unless there was a national emergency do not believe that it would be liability prudent to keep them in service. We need to wonder if any of the last serviceable heritage diners will be sold. The sidelined ones will never be allowed to operate on Amtrak again. As well most freight RRs would not allowed any cars banned on Amtrak. As a thought what would any tourist RR what with banned diners ?

This poster wonders if some heritage bags were in as bad shape and only used because of no revenue passengers ? ?

EDIT it may some very diligent inspector found frame cracks in a diner and a push on inspecting others found more ? Sort of like the SEPTA equalizer cracks found on one car then almost all cars.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

PaulM said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do the BC people know that, and who's actually going to stop them since they are given full unrestricted access to the sleepers?
> 
> Sorry, but I certainly see them using the showers, and helping themselves to the sleeper's coffee, juice, bottled water.
> 
> 
> 
> They have to obtain a towel from the sleeping car attendant, don't they? If so, there's your control on who gets to use the shower.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not true. Fresh towels are usually in the shower changing area, if and not usually stored in the luggage rack (superliner only of course). I've never had to ask for a towel. Or you could supply your own. I would have no qualms about using them. In all my travels, I've hardly ever waited for the shower.
> 
> I do think placing BC between the baggage car and sleepers a bit odd. Between sleepers and diner or coach and cafe seems more logical.
Click to expand...

On the Viewliners, I have always found the bath towels in the shower's changing area. There is a stack of clean towels, and a laundry bag for the dirty towels.

I think that's is a more logical consist. The sleeping cars would, again, would have access limited (restricted) to only sleep car passengers. Though, I don't see why the BC cars need to be so far separated to the coach passengers on the existing consists. Why not put the BC car between the dining car and lounge car? Is Amtrak worried about coach passengers walking thru the BC car might stop, and sit in an empty BC seat? Well, what's stopping a BC passenger walking thru the sleepers, and doing something similar (taking a nap in what they think is an empty roomette? Taking a shower?).


----------



## neroden

Structural cracks are repairable, but it's super expensive and rather slow. Even most railroad museums won't do it unless it's a particularly historic and valuable piece of equipment which is particularly worth running.

I'm sure some of the Heritage diners will be snapped up by excursion railroads and museums. Many of them may be so far gone structurally that even the excursion railroads would not want them.

According to NARP, Amtrak expects to see diners out of CAF by early September or possibly late August.


----------



## Train2104

NARP's latest newsletter: https://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/hotline-973-usdot-opens-new-bureau-fra-examines-rail-opportunities-in-texas-and-new-england-lawmakers-push-for-tsa-to-implement/

Structural cracks in Heritage diners, only 12 serviceable

New diners expected to be in service August/September

New sleepers expected to start entering service "in the fall"


----------



## MikefromCrete

Train2104 said:


> NARP's latest newsletter: https://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/hotline-973-usdot-opens-new-bureau-fra-examines-rail-opportunities-in-texas-and-new-england-lawmakers-push-for-tsa-to-implement/
> 
> Structural cracks in Heritage diners, only 12 serviceable
> 
> New diners expected to be in service August/September
> 
> New sleepers expected to start entering service "in the fall"


Wow, for the first time in a long time, some actual dates for the delivery of the diners and sleepers. Let's hope this prediction is more accurate than previous "delivery dates."


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Captain we left for another galaxy ??? called Heritage cars ??


----------



## jamesontheroad

Ryan said:


> You've got to ask yourself a question - if you replace every single part on a railcar, such that none of the original 70 year old material is present, did you actually restore the car, or build a replica? Because that's pretty much what it would take.


A deep philosophical question, considered many years ago in the British TV comedy _Only Fools and Horses_. In one episode, local street sweeper Trigger receives an award from the mayor for long service (with the same broom).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

neroden said:


> According to NARP, Amtrak expects to see diners out of CAF by early September or possibly late August.


2018? 2019?


----------



## west point

Would rather see the Heritage cars parted out. There are many heritage PV cars that we want to see continue in service. Probably Amtrak will require at some future time that all certified cars be examined for critical frame cracks.


----------



## Karl1459

I think the heritage diners were well past their service life at least 25 years ago. Most likely after that its been patches upon patches.

Maybe a tourist line that does not exceed 20mph might find some use but even then the bailing wire might break, the bubble gum stretch, or the duct tape tear. As a piece of original owner rolling stock they would have little or no historical value as too many modifications have happened. The only historical value is to show what junk Amtrak had to run in 2016.

Now if the Issac Walton Inn were to decide it wanted some deluxe "passenger car" cabins...


----------



## tommylicious

Rock on! Bring on the Viewliner II Diners!


----------



## afigg

MikefromCrete said:


> Wow, for the first time in a long time, some actual dates for the delivery of the diners and sleepers. Let's hope this prediction is more accurate than previous "delivery dates."


The last reports/rumors on projected delivery dates of the first diner cars was for late May/June, that was in April IIRC. Now that we are passed mid-July, according to NARP, the first of the new diners should be ready for revenue service in August or early September. Hopefully, they are not stuck in a loop where the initial delivery and then revenue service dates are always 6 weeks or 2 months away. 

Presumably the diner cars will have to be moved to Hialeah for inspection and acceptance tests and undergo test runs before they can be accepted into revenue service. To enter revenue service in August, wouldn't the first batch have to be moved to Hialeah soon?


----------



## jis

I have heard the "late August or early September" estimation from one of the proverbial horse's mouth, independent of NARP. But then again horses have been wrong before


----------



## StriderGDM

Unless the cars move this week to Hialeah, I simply can't believe any will be in service by late August (ok, perhaps August 31st...)

Even September I think is a stretch.

My guess. September 15th at the earliest and more likely October 1st.

Then come December we'll find some cold weather issues and they'll be pulled for a week or two on the LSL.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> I have heard the "late August or early September" estimation from one of the proverbial horse's mouth, independent of NARP. But then again horses have been wrong before


Q: How many months until the cars are ready?

A: Clop, Clop, Clop


----------



## jis

LOL!


----------



## ScouseAndy

the LSL needs 3 dining cars in order to be able provide full service on all dates IIRC(?) So even if the first car is delivered mid Aug and then lets assume (makes an Ass out of u and me) they can deliver a car every week, it is going to be virtually late Sept/Early Oct before full dining car service can be restored.

If I am even close to this assumption then the Stavarvation couldn't see full service resumed until Mid to late Nov

All this fails to take into account any further terminal failures in the remaining heritage fleet. How many more such failures would it take to see the full temporary termination of east coast dining car service?


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

How long will it even take before Amtrak modifies its current Viewliner I sleepers for 125 MPH? They need to do it soon, or they'll likely never get the overnight trains up to 125!

Like most people say, "It's now or never."


----------



## Ryan

No, it's "now or whenever they get around to it".

Don't expect to make a huge difference when they do. 15 MPH isn't a whole lot.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

CSXfoamer1997 said:


> How long will it even take before Amtrak modifies its current Viewliner I sleepers for 125 MPH? They need to do it soon, or they'll likely never get the overnight trains up to 125!
> 
> Like most people say, "It's now or never."





Ryan said:


> No, it's "now or whenever they get around to it".
> 
> Don't expect to make a huge difference when they do. 15 MPH isn't a whole lot.


I'm pretty sure the max speed of the train isn't the issue, the max speed limits of the tracks is. Other than Amtrak owned routes, most of the others you can't go 110 mph anyway (not even close).


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How long will it even take before Amtrak modifies its current Viewliner I sleepers for 125 MPH? They need to do it soon, or they'll likely never get the overnight trains up to 125!
> 
> Like most people say, "It's now or never."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's "now or whenever they get around to it".
> 
> Don't expect to make a huge difference when they do. 15 MPH isn't a whole lot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm pretty sure the max speed of the train isn't the issue, the max speed limits of the tracks is. Other than Amtrak owned routes, most of the others you can't go 110 mph anyway (not even close).
Click to expand...

The NEC allows 125 MPH on some sections between WAS and NYP.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How long will it even take before Amtrak modifies its current Viewliner I sleepers for 125 MPH? They need to do it soon, or they'll likely never get the overnight trains up to 125!
> 
> Like most people say, "It's now or never."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's "now or whenever they get around to it".
> 
> Don't expect to make a huge difference when they do. 15 MPH isn't a whole lot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm pretty sure the max speed of the train isn't the issue, the max speed limits of the tracks is. *Other than Amtrak owned routes,* most of the others you can't go 110 mph anyway (not even close).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The NEC allows 125 MPH on some sections between WAS and NYP.
Click to expand...

He said "other than Amtrak owned routes".


----------



## PRR 60

Yesterday (July 23) was the sixth anniversary of the Viewliner II order with CAF. Six years. The entire order was supposed to take five years to completion. We're no where near completion.

This has been quite the odyssey. I bet the people at Amtrak who deal with CAF have some really interesting stories to tell about this project.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

I am also sure CAF has some really interesting story to tell about Amtrak, and this project.


----------



## StriderGDM

Ryan said:


> No, it's "now or whenever they get around to it".
> 
> Don't expect to make a huge difference when they do. 15 MPH isn't a whole lot.


Ayup, and most likely if/when they get them to 125MPH on the NEC, it'll be really more to help with timekeeping. It's not going to make a huge difference for an LD train if you save a few minutes on the schedule, but it will help if you can pad the schedule so that it (and others) don't get completely out of their scheduled slot.


----------



## neroden

PRR 60 said:


> Yesterday (July 23) was the sixth anniversary of the Viewliner II order with CAF. Six years. The entire order was supposed to take five years to completion. We're no where near completion.
> 
> This has been quite the odyssey. I bet the people at Amtrak who deal with CAF have some really interesting stories to tell about this project.


....I already heard one, a year or two ago, from someone at Amtrak who dealt with CAF. He said they were having trouble hiring people in Elmira who could "read a blueprint or screw in a bolt", if I remember correctly. I can believe it, unfortunately. He also said that New York State government routinely offered big deals to have companies put their factories in upstate NY, while states which *had* appropriately skilled workforces didn't, which is why this sort of thing kept happening...

Unfortunately I think neither CAF nor Amtrak is really to blame here. The big problem appears to be that locating a factory in Elmira made it hard to hire a workforce who were trainable, let alone trained -- though this was not anticipated by the Spanish bosses at CAF or the bosses at Amtrak, and probably should have been. Paying much higher rates might have gotten people to relocate, but that has its own problems. Arguably the factory should have been put in a town which had more of an industrial base, and therefore semi-trained workers, left -- if you really wanted to stay in NY, Buffalo might have been good enough, but Elmira wasn't.

I hate to say this because I'm only an hour up the road from Elmira and it's good to have local jobs, but really, putting the factory there was a big mistake.


----------



## neroden

west point said:


> Would rather see the Heritage cars parted out.


That's probably their highest and best use at this point! It's also probably the way Amtrak will get the most money for them. So yeah.


----------



## PVD

Rail cars had been worked on/built there previously, you weren't building a plant from scratch. They may have also seriously underestimated the number of people with machining and welding skills that left for the oil boom states. If they started up today, they'd have quite a few of them back..


----------



## neroden

Karl1459 said:


> I think the heritage diners were well past their service life at least 25 years ago. Most likely after that its been patches upon patches.
> 
> Maybe a tourist line that does not exceed 20mph might find some use but even then the bailing wire might break, the bubble gum stretch, or the duct tape tear. As a piece of original owner rolling stock they would have little or no historical value as too many modifications have happened. The only historical value is to show what junk Amtrak had to run in 2016.


The Temoinsa rebuild interiors have historical value as a representative of a decade of Amtrak service and a particular decor concept, and I hope at least one is kept as an example.

A couple of the non-Temoinsas seem to have had no major rebuilds (y'know, apart from the electrical conversion to HEP) and seem to be mostly original spec -- the #8502, #8528, #8524 and #8521 don't have a long list of rebuilds.

Cars like the #8530, #8531, or #8532, which originated as coaches and have been totally converted repeatedly, probably have very little historical value unless one can be used as an example of how cars were converted! (Perhaps some sort of partial disassembly and reconstruction in three different historical stages within the same frame as you walk from end to end...)


----------



## neroden

PVD said:


> Rail cars had been worked on/built there previously, you weren't building a plant from scratch. They may have also seriously underestimated the number of people with machining and welding skills that left for the oil boom states. If they started up today, they'd have quite a few of them back..


Yes, I'm sure they seriously underestimated the number of people who had left for the oil boom. After all, the factory had been closed for years.

Hopefully they do have some of them back now, though I don't think people are returning to Elmira in large numbers. Anyway, it may be possible to turn the factory into a going operation and get good results now. It was a mistake to locate it there during the year they did, but that mistake's been made. Now that they've *dealt* with that it may be a perfectly good factory again.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I see lots of Commercials on TV about incentives for locating New Businesses in Up-State New York and they show different types in such faded cities as Buffalo, Rochester, Utica, Syracuse etc.

I'm wondering why they show them down here in Texas since we don't have any manufacturing, and people are moving here in droves for work?

Wouldn't they be more effective in the Rust Belt States such as Michigan,Indiana,Pennsylvania, Ohio and Wisconsin that have a history of manufacturing but the jobs are gone to Mexico,Asia and the Caribbean?


----------



## PVD

The commercials are just "feel good" stuff for the politicians to show off what they want people to believe. What business makes its relocation decisions based on a tv commercial that one of the higher ups saw.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

GE makes train engines only in Ft Worth. The Erie plant was Union and now it does not build any train engines.


----------



## jis

Erie still does some testing? I recall that one of the first HSP46s went from MPI to Erie for something. Don't recall what though.


----------



## Eric S

Bob Dylan said:


> I see lots of Commercials on TV about incentives for locating New Businesses in Up-State New York and they show different types in such faded cities as Buffalo, Rochester, Utica, Syracuse etc.
> 
> I'm wondering why they show them down here in Texas since we don't have any manufacturing, and people are moving here in droves for work?
> 
> Wouldn't they be more effective in the Rust Belt States such as Michigan,Indiana,Pennsylvania, Ohio and Wisconsin that have a history of manufacturing but the jobs are gone to Mexico,Asia and the Caribbean?


I see those same commercials in Wisconsin. Perhaps a national TV ad buy?


----------



## JoeBas

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to NARP, Amtrak expects to see diners out of CAF by early September or possibly late August.
> 
> 
> 
> 2018? 2019?
Click to expand...

As my MD continues to remind us when discussing our R&D efforts... "The year matters".


----------



## neroden

PVD said:


> The commercials are just "feel good" stuff for the politicians to show off what they want people to believe. What business makes its relocation decisions based on a tv commercial that one of the higher ups saw.


You'd be surprised how dumb a lot of CEOs are.


----------



## neroden

Bob Dylan said:


> I see lots of Commercials on TV about incentives for locating New Businesses in Up-State New York and they show different types in such faded cities as Buffalo, Rochester, Utica, Syracuse etc.


With the benefit of local knowledge (cough cough) I can say that the cities along the Erie Canal Corridor, including Auburn, are solid enough that locating a business there could make a lot of sense. They still have skilled workforces and smart kids who are loyal enough that they are staying. And if they get the hankering to go to New York City... they can take the train. (And airfares are reasonable, too.)

The cities along the Susquehanna River corridor are another matter. Honestly, they've been declining since the Erie Canal opened The manufacturing knowledge is much more hollowed out and the whole area is going back to its farming roots. They're very isolated in transportation terms -- you gotta drive everywhere (no passenger trains, sky-high airfare and minimal flights), and the roads are slow and bad. It makes them a highly unattractive place for people to move.


----------



## jis

Each time I go to the Susquehanna Valley in the Southern Tier of New York State, all that I see more of are Antique Shops somehow. It is a beautiful area which could do well to develop a more robust tourist industry perhaps with the help of new passenger rail service using DMUs.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Each time I go to the Susquehanna Valley in the Southern Tier of New York State, all that I see more of are Antique Shops somehow. It is a beautiful area which could do well to develop a more robust tourist industry perhaps with the help of new passenger rail service using DMUs.


Those aren't antique shops. Those are the homes of all the old people where the great grandkids had to come back to sell off the furniture the people were still using before they ended up in the nursing homes. :giggle:


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Bob Dylan said:


> Wouldn't they be more effective in the Rust Belt States such as Michigan,Indiana,Pennsylvania, Ohio and Wisconsin that have a history of manufacturing but the jobs are gone to Mexico,Asia and the Caribbean?


I add a short story. Many years ago, AT&T had a problem making vacuum tubes in Manhattan. Too much dirt (what we could call pollution today) was getting inside the tubes. So, AT&T decided to build a new factory in Allentown, PA. A reasonable driving distance from NYC. Nice clean air (must have been a day when the wind was blowing Bethlehem Steel's soot the other way). And Allentown had many seamstresses, a skill AT&T felt could easily be transferred over to making vacuum tubes. So, yes, having a good local supply of skilled workers was indeed a requirement.

Though, a story ends with a bit of a twist. Soon after AT&T built the factory in Allentown, AT&T's Bell Labs people invented the transistor, and Allentown got quickly converted into the world first semiconductor fab.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

neroden said:


> The cities along the Susquehanna River corridor are another matter. Honestly, they've been declining since the Erie Canal opened The manufacturing knowledge is much more hollowed out and the whole area is going back to its farming roots. They're very isolated in transportation terms -- you gotta drive everywhere (no passenger trains, sky-high airfare and minimal flights), and the roads are slow and bad. It makes them a highly unattractive place for people to move.


The southern tier recently got a interstate highway. So growth will follow. Transportation is key to growth. Unlike the toll way upstate, the downstate is a free way.


----------



## PVD

The interstate is 17 converted to limited access. It's not like its something new or vastly improved.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> The interstate is 17 converted to limited access. It's not like its something new or vastly improved.


Exactly. It was a divided highway in many places anyway with traffic lights in some areas, and the traffic in those areas was not exactly holding any development back. Now many parts of 17 have been upgraded to Interstate standards and rechristened as I-86. There are other parts where work still continues.



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The southern tier recently got a interstate highway. So growth will follow. Transportation is key to growth. Unlike the toll way upstate, the downstate is a free way.


Wake me up when it does. It will take way more than an upgrade of one highway for that to come about. Southern Tier has serious additional issues.

I spend quite a bit of time traveling parts of it since my old host family from my Grad School days have retired to their native home there, and the only practical way to get to their place is to drive. They actually live in a part of the Southern Tier which has had an Interstate highway for decades, and that does not seem to have made a huge difference.


----------



## edjbox

I believe most of the GE locomotives for the North American market are built in Texas now, while many locomotives and kits for the international market are built in Erie


----------



## Eric S

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The southern tier recently got a interstate highway. So growth will follow. Transportation is key to growth. Unlike the toll way upstate, the downstate is a free way.


I'd just note that "freeway" does not mean no tolls, it refers to flow of traffic unhindered by traffic signals, intersections, driveways, etc. A "tollway" with those characteristics is in fact a freeway.

And I'm not sure simply adding (or actually redesignating an existing highway as) an Interstate is going to create "growth." In a slow growth or no growth region, I think it's more likely to simply redistribute growth and development within the corridor.


----------



## jis

However I-86, I-88, I-99 and I-81 all of which pass through parts of the Southern Tier do not have any tolls unlike the New York State Thruway (I-90) which passes through the Northern Tier.


----------



## Ziv

afigg, this reminds me of a Star Trek TNG episode where the Enterprise was stuck in a time loop and kept repeating the same time period over and over. We could be hearing that the diners are just 6 weeks from arriving over and over and over... LOL!

On a serious note, I have been visiting this thread for what seems like forever waiting for the diners and, eventually, the sleepers to show up. I really hope that this late August/September time-frame is met!



afigg said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, for the first time in a long time, some actual dates for the delivery of the diners and sleepers. Let's hope this prediction is more accurate than previous "delivery dates."
> 
> 
> 
> The last reports/rumors on projected delivery dates of the first diner cars was for late May/June, that was in April IIRC. Now that we are passed mid-July, according to NARP, the first of the new diners should be ready for revenue service in August or early September. Hopefully, they are not stuck in a loop where the initial delivery and then revenue service dates are always 6 weeks or 2 months away.
> 
> Presumably the diner cars will have to be moved to Hialeah for inspection and acceptance tests and undergo test runs before they can be accepted into revenue service. To enter revenue service in August, wouldn't the first batch have to be moved to Hialeah soon?
Click to expand...


----------



## Bob Dylan

It's "Ground Hog Day" Redux!


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

neroden said:


> The big problem appears to be that locating a factory in Elmira made it hard to hire a workforce who were trainable, let alone trained -- though this was not anticipated by the Spanish bosses at CAF or the bosses at Amtrak, and probably should have been.


Not a dig at anyone in particularly, but a lot of Europeans, especially from the continent, often don't grasp the enormity of the United States nor the regional variations in skills, development, etc.

I'm always surprised that it's mostly manufacturing jobs that actually use the subsidies for relocation - for corporate relocations otherwise its icing on the cake or something they negotiate (I'm thinking Talgo in Milwaukee or say Nippon Slowyo which locate their plants near the customer to get the job, usually state sponsored, but Illinois and Wisconsin still have a lot of skilled labor and are central) to scare the state or other governmental unit - even if they were going to locate there anyway.


----------



## neroden

PVD said:


> The interstate is 17 converted to limited access. It's not like its something new or vastly improved.


The limited access conversion basically destroyed the local businesses in Horseheads, in fact. People driving through used to stop at the traffic lights and go to the gas stations and restaurants. They don't stop any more. It's now surrounded by vacant, boarded-up buildings. Prosperity! Not.

An expressway is a good tool of economic destruction. The conversion of 17 to limited access seems to have shuttered all the businesses which used to be at intersections. It certainly hasn't attracted any businesses. We saw this played out very, very clearly -- I used to think the interstate would be helpful, but it's been a disaster.

At its most fundamental, there's no particular economic reason to be in the Susquehanna Valley in NY, except for farming. The roads and railroads through the area follow the river, with all its bends, so they're slow. They'll never be as fast as the direct routes on the Erie Canal Corridor, because making them straight would require too much tunneling to be worth it. And if they were faster, it would just help people blow past the area.

The region originally developed as the "gateway to the west" way back when development followed the rivers. The opening of the Erie Canal rendered it irrelevant, and the B&O and C&O rendered it even more irrelevant. If it hadn't developed so early, it would *never* have developed, much like Northwestern Pennsylvania. Like I say, it's been declining since the Erie Canal opened, and it's got nothing which would cause that to change.


----------



## PVD

Hearing about Horseheads is a "throwback" for me. My first travel tournament as an ice hockey coach was played at the Elmira College Murray Domes and the hotel (Holiday Inn?) we used was in Horseheads. It's almost 30 years later, and I think my feet are still cold from standing behind that bench!


----------



## Palmetto

Continuing off topic, I once hosted a group of Belgian secondary school students when I worked in Chicago. One of the things their chaperone told me was that they wanted to see the Great Lakes. I told them to take a good look on the approach to O'Hare.


----------



## PerRock

You know almost every time I login here (multiple times a day) I see that there are new posts here & I think "ooh new info on the Viewliners" but inevitably it's some random conversation about something fairly off topic... I really shouldn't get my hopes up.

peter


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

PerRock said:


> You know almost every time I login here (multiple times a day) I see that there are new posts here & I think "ooh new info on the Viewliners" but inevitably it's some random conversation about something fairly off topic... I really shouldn't get my hopes up.
> 
> peter


I guess because there is no new information? *wry grin*


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Ziv said:


> afigg, this reminds me of a Star Trek TNG episode where the Enterprise was stuck in a time loop and kept repeating the same time period over and over. We could be hearing that the diners are just 6 weeks from arriving over and over and over... LOL!


That was just on last night.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Eric S said:


> I'd just note that "freeway" does not mean no tolls, it refers to flow of traffic unhindered by traffic signals, intersections, driveways, etc. A "tollway" with those characteristics is in fact a freeway.


People drive on Parkways, and people park on Driveways. 

We have freeways and thruways and parkways and expressways and causeways and byways.


----------



## PRR 60

I suggest we return this topic to Viewliner II discussion. Discussion of the socio-economic impact of limited access highways and other subjects not related to the Viewliner II order can be continued in Random Discussions.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Now if anyone sees a Viewliner consist rolling down a road of any kind, well have some Real News!


----------



## DSS&A

Hi, the CSF website has posted photos of the new diners.

http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=189


----------



## Steve4031

Those look Very nice. I see that the vents are lower like was mentioned in other posts. I wonder what the cooks think about the kitchen.


----------



## GaSteve

Steve4031 said:


> Those look Very nice. I see that the vents are lower like was mentioned in other posts. I wonder what the cooks think about the kitchen.


I spoke to the chef on 19/20 last week when the 8400 was in the consist and he said he "loved" it. There is a lot more work space in the kitchen, partly because of all the upper storage with the higher ceiling.


----------



## tommylicious

Gorgeous photos. I just hope they do right by these beauties and staff and don't force them to serve post-MCC Litchfield slop!


----------



## niemi24s

What, pray tell, might this refer to?



tommylicious said:


> . . .post-MCC Litchfield slop!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

niemi24s said:


> What, pray tell, might this refer to?
> 
> 
> 
> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> . . .post-MCC Litchfield slop!
Click to expand...

Prey tell, Google is your friend


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

tommylicious said:


> Gorgeous photos. I just hope they do right by these beauties and staff and don't force them to serve post-MCC Litchfield slop!


I guess I am in the minority here. The new dining cars are seriously UGGGGGGLY. Wow, they could not have made them look any more boring. Basic gray, huh? I have seen closed Carols with a better sense of style and décor.


----------



## TylerP42

I love the beautiful interiors of the dining cars. They are stunning.


----------



## JohannFarley

I agree they are great interiors. While I do prefer a more classic look to things, I know a lot of people really only care about clean and functional these days, along with simple design.


----------



## prech786

I agree with Charlie. The VW2 Diner interior has about as much ambiance as a Waffle House interior. IMO The ceiling needs to be a darker shade to give the impression that it's lower. That would provide a more personal feeling to the dining area; less like a school cafeteria or high school gym. Hopefully there will be serious thought given to window treatments. The upper windows need full length curtains or shades to lessen the "fishbowl" feeling of all that glass. Once In-Service I hope the lower windows use curtains or shades to block the sun when needed. Again that would lessen the "fishbowl" feeling and soften the institutional look.

Instead of the direct fluorescent or LED ceiling lights I wish they would have used full length, indirect lighting above the lower windows. That or use individual lighting for each table above the lower windows. This would also serve to lower the perceived ceiling height.

IMHO the whole dining area should have had the same lowered ceiling level as the corridor next to the kitchen. For manufacturing ease one wouldn't have to remove the upper window structure; leave them be or replace the glass with stainless panels. But of course we are stuck with what we've got; oh well.

The manufacturers pictures would look a whole lot better if the dining area had been "staged"*:* table cloths, silver- and glass-wear, plates, etc, etc.


----------



## SarahZ

I like the open/airy feeling with all the natural light. That's why I prefer Viewliner sleepers to Superliners.

Dark, low ceilings make me feel closed-in.


----------



## leacrane

Is it possible to get a new thread for Viewliner II as this one is over 4 yrs old with 300 plus posts. Maybe call it "Viewliner II Rollout"? ( which of course optimistically assumes they will make it onto service)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

SarahZ said:


> I like the open/airy feeling with all the natural light. That's why I prefer Viewliner sleepers to Superliners.
> 
> Dark, low ceilings make me feel closed-in.


And if they had wanted that - the low ceilings "look", then they would not have made them the way they did with the higher ceiling and upper windows.

As with anything, you can't please everyone.

BTW, I've seen interior pics of 8400, the prototype and it has curtains on at least the lower windows.


----------



## jis

Who needs dank dark ceilings to make them look low. We left the cave a long time back. I like light and airy and think the VL IIs look fine. Must be a generation gap thing


----------



## AmtrakBlue

prech786 said:


> The manufacturers pictures would look a whole lot better if the dining area had been "staged"*:* table cloths, silver- and glass-wear, plates, etc, etc.


Why would the manufacturer stage it. They're selling their work to companies that want to buy train cars. It's up to Amtrak (or whoever else buys their product) to make the cars look inviting to their own customers.


----------



## neroden

DSS&A said:


> Hi, the [CAF] website has posted photos of the new diners.
> 
> http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=189


They look an awful lot like the 8400. No curtains but I see curtain rail overhangs, so I figure they just haven't put the curtains in yet. If anything the design is slightly more "art deco" than the 8400 -- look at those ceiling lights!

I think they're pretty gorgeous and should attract customers,... if Amtrak markets them a little. (I remember meeting someone in the dining car of the LSL who had not realized that it had a dining car until she got on board. She was going from NYP to Schenectady and had always taken Empire Service. She ordered three mini-bottles of wine, and probably made quite a lot of money for Amtrak.)


----------



## me_little_me

I hope there are no curtains because there will always be somebody who wants to eat with the curtains closed and scenery going by. For sunlight, some kind of shade that lets you see out while deflecting direct sunlight would be nice.


----------



## jis

Wish they could start using on train Windows, those nifty electro-optical shade things that they have on the 787. Setting them at about half brightness works perfectly.


----------



## neroden

Nobody wants the sun in their eyes while they're eating, so there'll have to be some sort of shade.


----------



## RPC

In my long-ago experience with the first life of 8400, two negatives stood out: 1) On a bright summer day the light was nearly unbearable. All the windows had curtains, but the uppers could only be moved by standing on the benches. Upper curtains closed on the sunny side seemed to be the best compromise. 2) The air conditioning came in at vents at the base of the lower windows (like the sleepers, but without the adjustable vents). On a hot day, window passengers' window side arms got nearly frozen. Aside from that, the car was quite nice, though I remember the chefs saying the aisle in the kitchen was narrower than the Heritage diners'. I'm looking forward to trying out the 21st century version!


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Add me to the not impressed with the interior crowd, especially compared to the "trains of yesteryear" or even a lot of trains around the world they seem dated already - which I suppose could be a good thing.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I've eaten in 8400 ( Indianapolis) Several times.and thought it was a big improvement over the Heritage Diners, especially the AC.

The Crews that I rode with all loved it too!

I agree that hopefully there will be some spiffing up done with colors and that useful curtains or blinds will be installed on the windows.

Bring 'me on already!!!


----------



## tommylicious

hopefully the food on these beautiful new cars won't be this to recoup the cost: http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/06/18/18-oitnb-food.w750.h560.2x.jpg


----------



## Palmetto

The crew on 8400 [on train 19] hated it. Rough riding. Maybe the answer was because of the ride rather than the condition of the interior.


----------



## GaSteve

Palmetto said:


> The crew on 8400 [on train 19] hated it. Rough riding. Maybe the answer was because of the ride rather than the condition of the interior.


That's interesting, because my immediate distinct impression was that it was much smoother riding and the chef told me he "loved" it. The 8400 does not have the same interior as the one in the pics of the new cars.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

GaSteve said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> The crew on 8400 [on train 19] hated it. Rough riding. Maybe the answer was because of the ride rather than the condition of the interior.
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting, because my immediate distinct impression was that it was much smoother riding and the chef told me he "loved" it. The 8400 does not have the same interior as the one in the pics of the new cars.
Click to expand...

It is also odd because the Crescent is known to be one of the smoothest LD trains.


----------



## jis

Chock it up to each individual having their own strong opinions about stuff based on GOK what (GOK stands for God Only Knows).


----------



## PerRock

GaSteve said:


> The 8400 does not have the same interior as the one in the pics of the new cars.


The idea of 8400 is that the new cars will be pretty much the same as it; at least in layout; there maybe some cosmetic changes but when it comes to working & dining in it, they should pretty much all be the same. 8400 is the testing car, so they made up an interior layout, sent it out for service, then (supposedly) listened to what OBS said they liked & disliked, made changes, rinse, repeat. That being said I don' think 8400 actually went back the BG for any changes.

As for ride, I wouldn't be surprised if 8400 had a poor-er ride quality then the other Viewliner Is or the new ones. 8400 is one of the three oldest Viewliners in Amtrak's fleet, has been extensively reworked a couple of times, it's bound to be showing some wear & tear from all that.

peter


----------



## JohannFarley

This question may have been answered a while ago on this thread, but is any specific route going to get these new diners first if they do a few deliveries over time? Or does everyone think that because they are so late they would want to take all the diners at once for a quick as possible rollout.

I'm guessing since they are on diner lite service (if I'm not mistaken) the LSL and the Cardinal would be first. My family is planning to take the LSL from New York to Chicago and back for vacation around this time next year and I really hope they're rolled out by then.


----------



## jis

Unless they have decided that the shells manufactured so far a re not salvageable and they have to start from scratch, one would imagine that something should rolling by this time next year.

I am hoping that the GAO would come out with another report on this fiasco right about now so that we can figure out what is going on.


----------



## JohannFarley

Yeah it would be great to have some info. This thread sat completely dead for 2 weeks and before that we were only talking about 8400


----------



## Ziv

There are so many problems with so many different governmental acquisitions that you have to wonder if it is time to simplify or streamline the Federal Acquisition Regulation. It is well meaning but when the LCS, the F-35, Ford Class carrier, the Acela and the Viewliner II all have similarly problematic developments, maybe we should be looking at what went wrong with each of the programs and see if there is a similar problem in the decision making process.

I would bet that Brightline won't have nearly the series of problems that we saw in the aforementioned programs. Problems are normal but this level of failure/delay is not. This isn't rocket science, building a diner car shouldn't take this long, nor should the builder botch it in this spectacular a fashion.


----------



## jis

Project management apparently is not one of Amtrak's fortes. Look at the evolving screwup in the $450 million NJ High Speed Rail Project. They have already had to drop the entire NY Penn Station ladder A component. They have had to reduce the constant tension catenary down to about 50% or so of the original planned. Of course they have come up with an excuse why that is OK. And yet they are still struggling to complete it within time limit for the funding.

Another evolving one apparently are the Albany and Schenectady station projects, though the latter is mostly CDTAs doing. But the amount of time being taken to construct two frickin' platforms has to be a world record of some sort.


----------



## TiBike

Ziv said:


> This isn't rocket science, building a diner car shouldn't take this long, nor should the builder botch it in this spectacular a fashion.


Building baggage cars is even further removed from rocket science, and those still aren't fully operational yet. The whole program is fubar.


----------



## Seaboard92

I think some of this also can stem from when you go to the cheapest bidder you get the worst product and management.


----------



## Ryan

Ziv said:


> It is well meaning but when the LCS, the F-35, Ford Class carrier, the Acela and the Viewliner II all have similarly problematic developments,


Don't believe everything you read. These programs aren't as screwed up as you think they are.

But that doesn't make a very compelling story, so you don't hear about it.


----------



## west point

Just a wild guess but the Meteor will probably get the new diners first and then as other new diners become available they will also go first to the Meteor. The reason is that MIA ( Hialeah ) is responsible for all work on single level LD trains up to the major overhauls. If I were Amtrak I would have both a new V-2 diner and a Heritage diner (as standby ) for one round trip in case of any failure of the new V-2 diner


----------



## Acela150

Let's not jump ahead to where these cars will or will not go first.. I will put it this way.. The LSL serves 2 meals, SM serves 3 maybe 4 if they're late enough, if you give the SS a diner back that's 3 again if late enough 4, Crescent serves 3 same deal, late enough 4. I'll add I'm thinking of this by Southbound runs. Expect the LSL which leaves CHI late enough that Breakfast and Lunch are it. The Cardinal can seriously benefit from one.. 4 meals each way. Which IINM is the most out of any of the eastern LD trains. With the westbound serving breakfast twice and the eastbound serving dinner twice..

Right now the CAF cars are exactly what CAF stands for... Cars Are Fictional.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Just got back from a round trip on the Lake Shore Limited. The diner lite wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Of course they didn't have the steak, but the replacement "short ribs" were edible, although charging $24 is a farce. I hope no unsuspecting coach passengers fell for it. The "diner" looked reasonably good, with the same table service, and the staff were cheerful. My biggest complaint was the lack of salad, they said it was skipped because of storage space limitations.

But here's the bad news. I chatted with the waiter about the new diners, and he said that he was now hearing November for the first rollout, BUT due to some technicality they would have to run empty for THREE MONTHS on the back of trains for some sort of testing/break-in. He said that the LSL was planning diner lites until sometime in February. He had no other info, and I only pass this on as one data point. Perhaps someone with better inside information could verify or correct. If this is the way the diners roll out, I'm not going to lose any sleep waiting for the sleepers.

Still, I was burning points and it was a pretty good ride for free. The kid and I had a great time.


----------



## Triley

Brian Battuello said:


> Just got back from a round trip on the Lake Shore Limited. The diner lite wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Of course they didn't have the steak, but the replacement "short ribs" were edible, although charging $24 is a farce. I hope no unsuspecting coach passengers fell for it. The "diner" looked reasonably good, with the same table service, and the staff were cheerful. My biggest complaint was the lack of salad, they said it was skipped because of storage space limitations.
> 
> But here's the bad news. I chatted with the waiter about the new diners, and he said that he was now hearing November for the first rollout, BUT due to some technicality they would have to run empty for THREE MONTHS on the back of trains for some sort of testing/break-in. He said that the LSL was planning diner lites until sometime in February. He had no other info, and I only pass this on as one data point. Perhaps someone with better inside information could verify or correct. If this is the way the diners roll out, I'm not going to lose any sleep waiting for the sleepers.
> 
> Still, I was burning points and it was a pretty good ride for free. The kid and I had a great time.


Just like any other new equipment it has to be sent out for testing to make sure it will not have to be cut out enroute somewhere, and you also have to give the mechanical and OBS crews time to get acclimated.


----------



## NE933

There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.


----------



## Hal

NE933 said:


> There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.


You can't test something that you don't have.


----------



## Triley

Hal said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't test something that you don't have.
Click to expand...

Exactly... Lets not get confused with 8400 being similar to the Viewliner IIs. Even if they were, there will still be differences. The Charger and ACS64s are similar, does that mean that crews don't need to get acquainted with the Charger? No. The only thing you are right about is that it's time to get them out in to revenue service.


----------



## Acela150

NE933 said:


> There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.


The only thing that was tested was ride quality and speed performance. ThirdRail may have more on that. Crews weren't trained on this stuff. Yet again....

CAF. Cars Are Fictional.


----------



## TiBike

It's been more than a year and they still haven't figured out how to use the bike racks in the baggage cars. Three months to figure out how to operate a whole dining car seems wildly optimistic.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Wise words from the Amtrak insiders! Way past time for the VL Diners to be rolling down the rails!


----------



## JohannFarley

Just cause I was bored at work, here is a glassdoor.com review of CAF USA by an anon employee.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Interesting! Wonder if the CEO non ratings mean there's too many Indians and No Chiefs since CAF seems to have turned the VII order into a Clusterflub??!!!( and Amtraks suits have been MIA on this too!)


----------



## PRR 60

Here is the actual Glassdoor page for CAF USA. Pretty ugly stuff.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Interesting! Wonder if the CEO non ratings mean there's too many Indians and No Chiefs since CAF seems to have turned the VII order into a Clusterflub??!!!( and Amtraks suits have been MIA on this too!)


It does not mean anything beyond the fact that the few who have volunteered info did not have much to say. I would not put a great deal of credence on the extremely sparse contribution. It starts getting relevant when you start getting at least several dozen individuals contributing from a company.


----------



## JohannFarley

This page is what I would present to someone who asked where the viewliners are from now on. Apparently just one large fustercluck of a company.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?


----------



## CCC1007

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?


Do you want diners?


----------



## afigg

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?


What good would that do? The funds have been committed and Amtrak needs the diners, sleepers, and bag-dorm cars.


----------



## jis

afigg said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?
> 
> 
> 
> What good would that do?
Click to expand...

It would be a nice way to show we are throwing a teenage tantrum!


----------



## Triley

jis said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?
> 
> 
> 
> What good would that do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It would be a nice way to show we are throwing a teenage tantrum!
Click to expand...

In that case..!


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we just cancel the project, and walk away?
> 
> 
> 
> What good would that do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It would be a nice way to show we are throwing a teenage tantrum!
Click to expand...

At some point, someone managing the contract has to consider if the degree of non-performance by CAF has become material breech. Multi-years late, continual misinformation on progress, and (reportedly) poor quality of the delivered product makes me wonder to what point does Amtrak continue to throw good money after bad. The comments on Glassdoor, even assuming the propensity for those to be disgruntled employees, are still pretty damning.

Amtrak's bind is they really need those new cars, particularly the diners. If they pull the plug on CAF, they would have to collect whatever product is available, and move it to another vendor for completion. CAF would probably contest that, and then things could get strung out for months and months. The practical side is that Amtrak and CAF are probably stuck with each other, but Amtrak finally getting fed-up and giving CAF the boot after this mess would not be all that surprising.


----------



## JohannFarley

I would hope after all of this (and with Boardman's replacement coming) Amtrak would do no more business with CAF following this horrendous catastrophe of an ordeal. If they weren't so desperate for these cars I wouldn't have been surprised if they pulled the plug a long time ago, but alas not.


----------



## enoreeman

Too bad Budd is no longer in the rail car business, their stuff DID last.


----------



## JohannFarley

enoreeman said:


> Too bad Budd is no longer in the rail car business, their stuff DID last.


Very true.


----------



## Acela150

enoreeman said:


> Too bad Budd is no longer in the rail car business, their stuff DID last.


Amen!!!!!! The Amfleets are still kickin and the same with the Via Rail Budd fleet.


----------



## AlanB

Triley said:


> Hal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't test something that you don't have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly... Lets not get confused with 8400 being similar to the Viewliner IIs. Even if they were, there will still be differences. The Charger and ACS64s are similar, does that mean that crews don't need to get acquainted with the Charger? No. The only thing you are right about is that it's time to get them out in to revenue service.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the shells, trucks, and exterior stuff is different between 8400 and the potential, future dinners is different. But the entire point of 8400 being dragged out of mothballs, sent to BG, and rebuilt inside; was to match the exact layout & equipment of the new upcoming dining cars. Any differences between 8400 and the new VL II dining cars should be very minimal to the OBS crews. What the OBS crews see in the new diners is supposed to be what they currently see in 8400; that's why 8400 is back on the rails to prove that the design works. Most OBS crews seemed quite happy with the layout and one SA that I spoke with who had worked 8400 in its original configuration, that most acknowledge was a disaster, was quite happy with the new layout. He thought it was a very good layout & design and was looking forward to the new VL II dining cars. And I've not heard that 8400's design was found lacking in any major way that would see changes of a nature that would require crews relearning things.

And since the same shells and trucks are already in use for the new baggage cars, there shouldn't be much difference for the operating crews either.


----------



## Acela150

I should add that this is turning into Hyundai Rotem and the Septa Silverliner V saga part deux. Just with Amtrak and CAF.


----------



## StriderGDM

Firstly, keep in mind while Glassdoor can be somewhat useful, in general sites like that tend to get the more disgruntled folks than the gruntled folks.

Secondly, we don't know many details. From other sources I'm hearing that some of this is on Amtrak, changes that they've asked for.

All around, it sucks, but I'd rather they get it right the first time, and not get them too early and have problems.


----------



## west point

What one has to wonder is what is any agency thinking of by doing business with CAF. If I was a taxpayer I would take my local agency to task for using CAF. Just citing Amtrak's troubles should wake up anyone trying to or doing business with CAF. BTW who are they doing business with at present or has done so in the past ?

Might be time for a class action lawsuit against CAF ?..


----------



## JohannFarley

west point said:


> What one has to wonder is what is any agency thinking of by doing business with CAF. If I was a taxpayer I would take my local agency to task for using CAF. Just citing Amtrak's troubles should wake up anyone trying to or doing business with CAF. BTW who are they doing business with at present or has done so in the past ?
> 
> Might be time for a class action lawsuit against CAF ?..


All of their current projects are listed on their website. You can see them all by using the "select a project" drop down menu at the bottom of the page for the Viewliner IIs here: http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=189


----------



## battalion51

AlanB said:


> Triley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There has been plenty of time and opportunities for testing and getting everyone acquainted. Time to get the damn things out and about, carrying passengers and earning revenue.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't test something that you don't have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly... Lets not get confused with 8400 being similar to the Viewliner IIs. Even if they were, there will still be differences. The Charger and ACS64s are similar, does that mean that crews don't need to get acquainted with the Charger? No. The only thing you are right about is that it's time to get them out in to revenue service.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And since the same shells and trucks are already in use for the new baggage cars, there shouldn't be much difference for the operating crews either.
Click to expand...

Don't forget though the baggage cars lack a lot of things that the Diners, Sleepers, and Dorms will have: air conditioning, plumbing, electrical, power doors. There are some things that will be the same, but a lot of things that will be different. Mechanical and Operating Crews will need time to be oriented on them before they see revenue service.


----------



## Acela150

StriderGDM said:


> Firstly, keep in mind while Glassdoor can be somewhat useful, in general sites like that tend to get the more disgruntled folks than the gruntled folks.
> 
> Secondly, we don't know many details. From other sources I'm hearing that some of this is on Amtrak, changes that they've asked for.
> 
> All around, it sucks, but I'd rather they get it right the first time, and not get them too early and have problems.


I will put it this way. When Hyundai Rotem was given the Silverliner V contract and production was underway it wasn't uncommon to hear horror stories from the plant come out in the local papers. Many of the complaints were low wages to the point where employees were on food stamps and working that type of job shouldn't have been in need of them. Another topic was sexual harassment, language barriers between the US workers and the Korean based managers. The list goes on. At this point MBTA had already given them the contract for double decker cars and I have heard was very close to yanking it due to the major delays and stories coming from the plant. I'm going to guess they wish they did. They had their cars for a short period of time and then had issues. I have no idea about the Denver RTD contract. But I think it's fair to say that Rotem has burned many bridges here in the US between LA, Philly, and Boston having issues. I'm waiting on Denver to have something go wrong.

So what is being said on that page, I believe it.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> Amtrak's bind is they really need those new cars, particularly the diners. If they pull the plug on CAF, they would have to collect whatever product is available, and move it to another vendor for completion. CAF would probably contest that, and then things could get strung out for months and months. The practical side is that Amtrak and CAF are probably stuck with each other, but Amtrak finally getting fed-up and giving CAF the boot after this mess would not be all that surprising.


There certainly are scenarios which would justify canceling the order. But it is not clear that we are at that point. I would have expected that even the Bags would have been rejected outright if that were the case.

It is one thing if it is found that the shells manufactured are completely unsalvageable, and one has to start from square one, which would be an appropriate point to cancel the order collect penalties and move on taking the lumps. but if the basic cars are more or less sound with a bunch of detailed issues that can be fixed in a few months, then it would be foolish to cancel the order.

And frankly, beyond lack of knowledge of the nature of the problems, we also don't know for sure how much of the problem is of Amtrak's creation and how much is CAF's, and for that matter how much is the module manufacturer's - or some combination thereof probably. Given how the Acela fiasco unfolded I am not sure what to make of it this time. If the problems are traced back to basic mismanagement of contract by Amtrak, then it is not clear that terminating the order is exactly the wisest thing to do either.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Canceling the order at this point would be ridiculous. Diners and sleepers are needed ASAP. Finding a new builder and getting the cars built would take several years. Actually getting the diners seems likely within a month or so. Canceling the order when it was evident everything was going south would probably have been a good move.

The Glassdoor comments seem to come from disgruntled former employees. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in most of them. Everybody seems to like the benefits, however.

Yep, everybody wishes Budd was still around, but they're not. And nothing is ever going to bring them back.


----------



## PVD

Now that they are gone, everyone talks glowingly about Budd. They put together many great cars, but they had their share of losers also. The M1 order for the LIRR was a decent size order, and it had plenty of problems.


----------



## bretton88

Just about every agency has their problems. Heck, even the city of Toronto is suing Bombardier for how late they are in delivering the new streetcars and that's a local builder for them. Clunkers happen for various reasons.


----------



## Caesar La Rock

As great as Budd is, the remaining Diners are getting way too old. CAF needs to deliver those Diners completed and ready for service. Cancelling the order when Amtrak already has several of the baggage variants running isn't an option either.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Enough of amateur hour. I don't know why we didn't think of this before, but I know how to get the dining cars to Amtrak in a timelier fashion:

(Scroll down)







That should do it. (In case you can't tell, it is a view II diner)


----------



## jis

^** LOL **^


----------



## PRR 60

Back to the Viewliner II order. Off topic posts have been removed.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I don't know if this has been posted or not.

Per this website https://csanders429....cars-to-amtrak/

Quote



> A revised timetable negotiated in December 2015 and subject to re-negotiation this year has pushed the final delivery date to March 2017.


At the bottom of that page is a link to the Feb 2016 OIG report.


----------



## jis

I am now wondering if they will manage to deliver a single Diner or Sleeper by the final delivery date.


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> I am now wondering if they will manage to deliver a single Diner or Sleeper by the final delivery date.


The most recent rumor was a late August to September delivery, right? We're there.

Although, the order is already late enough at this point it is better to take the extra time to iron out any problems than rush cars out the door to meet an arbitrary deadline.

I'm also guessing CAF might not be interested in an add-on order for Viewliner II coaches and lounges?


----------



## neroden

If I were Amtrak, I'd ask CAF to hand over all the tooling and diagrams when they finish, so that Amtrak can hand all the ones which worked right to another builder. After noting all the ones which didn't work.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

AmtrakBlue said:


> I don't know if this has been posted or not.
> 
> Per this website https://csanders429....cars-to-amtrak/


What I get out of that report, is that Amtrak has to pay more, for the cars being delivered later. About $7M more.

Just about the last sentence is the most troubling to me...



> For its part, CAF contends that it will lose $41 million on the contract due to having to restructure a contract with a key supplier that is having financial difficulties.


Does that mean that CAF will be trying to cut corners in every way possible, to make up that $41M?


----------



## Palmland

Assuming CAF does complete the initial order, I wonder if Moorman would consider the add-on option to re-equip one or more of the western trains. It doesn't appear we'll see an order anytime soon for the aging Superliner cars. The obvious candidate would be the less scenic routes of the Texas Eagle and Sunset, perhaps modifying diners to serve as lounge car. And of course some of the cars would need to be designed as coaches, presumably an easy modification to a shell to add seats and restrooms. Perhaps Beech Grove could even do this.

This would also enable flexibility in mixing with the cars on the Crescent assignment. (remember the Washington to LA sleeper in early Amtrak days)? And, it would provide some additional Superliner cars from the TE/Sunset pool to supplement the remaining Superliner trains where demand is high or allow retirement if some of the cars were in poor condition.

It has to be more cost effective to keep the CAF production going (assuming they have an interest) than starting from scratch again - especially at the glacial speed it seems to take to complete a new car order.


----------



## jis

I am not sure if it is worthwhile if they will take another half a dozen years to do another 80 or so cars.

This is really frustrating when I contrast this with China or India who routinely add a couple of thousand cars each year as replacement and net add to their fleet.


----------



## neroden

If the problems ever get straightened out and the order ever comes close to completion, and Amtrak is even willing to deal with CAF at that point, and CAF still wants to be in the US market, and in the very unlikely event that Amtrak exercised an add-on order (which I hope they do), priorities for add-on orders should be, in this order:

-- more sleepers &/or bag/dorms for the eastern trains depending on market analysis

-- re-equipping the Capitol Limited with single-level cars to distribute its bilevels westward

-- lots of coaches (since the design can probably be done more quickly than cafe/obs cars)

-- cafe/obs cars as soon as they can be designed (since the Amfleet II cafes are beat to hell, and unattractive to passengers)

...and none of it will ever go west of Chicago or New Orleans. There is enough need for single-level cars east of Chicago that Amtrak will certainly not be assigning them west of Chicago where there are no high platforms.


----------



## StriderGDM

I think it would be great to take the options, but I highly suspect that won't happen. On the other hand, if Amtrak does want more cars, it doesn't make much sense to bring in yet another builder.

A lot depends on where CAF is now and how convinced Amtrak is if they could deliver on future orders in a timely manner. I suspect if the options are exercised, they could deliver in a more timely manner than the original order.


----------



## neroden

So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.

Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.

Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html

Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.


----------



## JohannFarley

That would probably be the best idea


----------



## Gulfwind2

neroden said:


> So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.
> 
> Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.
> 
> Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:
> 
> http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html
> 
> Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.


Ah yes doesn't this mess make you want to go back to the days when the Milwaukee Road was homebuilding cars with ocean liner portholes for restroom windows and Brooks Stevens-inspired Skytop lounges?

Sadly we all understand that the harsh regulatory environment governing our unrealistic car safety standards will make the task of building new long distance cars in the next 10-15 years next to impossible. Perhaps a temporary solution may be converting the City of New Orleans to run single level if the Viewliner II order is ever fully satisfied with no catastrophic defects in the revenue cars or diners. The few additional Superliner cars which that would free up could give Beech Grove a chance to gradually take the entire Superliner fleet in for one final rebuild/update.

Making the current long distance fleet last as long as conceivably possible should be a major consideration for the future in light of the fact that we are very unlikely to see a Congress any time soon which is willing to appropriate funds for a large order to re-equip ANY long distance trains.


----------



## battalion51

The biggest issue in the short term in terms of the idea of converting a train to single level equipment is availability of coaches. Approximately 3 Superliner coaches = 4 Amfleet II coaches, and there isn't an extra dozen coaches laying around. Not to mention 2 Superliner sleepers = 3 Viewliner sleepers. If you're going to flip a train the CONO makes sense because it has three sets, and both terminals service long distance single level trains. Behind that is the Capitol Limited which also has three sets, but Ivy City doesn't have spare cars on hand in terms of sleepers or Amfleet II coaches.

Also, don't forget flipping a Superliner train to single level requires some capital because you need wheelchair lifts at all station stops, something many stations that exclusively service bi-level equipment lack (FTN-HMD on the CONO and RKV-COV, ALC on the Capitol).


----------



## jis

neroden said:


> So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.
> 
> Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.
> 
> Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:
> 
> http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html
> 
> Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.


I doubt that there will be any need for any waiver or parts manufacturing by passenger rail agencies. Already a local source has been found in Pennsylvania who are able to deliver the necessary parts (PennFab) and Kinkisharyo in Jersey City is able to assemble the trucks. It would be a pretty insane move for commuter agencies or Amtrak who have enough problem keeping their trains running as it is, to be further distracted by getting into the parts manufacturing business beyond what they already do - which is mostly for superannuated pieces of equipment that should have been retired a long time ago.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy ...
> 
> 
> Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:
> 
> http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html


Followed your link to the excellent article in the _Columbus Dispatch_ and then to this comment below the story:



> Kevin Kasson:
> 
> I researched Reich LLC on the internet, (Reich Bros, a US subsidiary of a German company won the auction) and I am sure they will get the Patents/Copyrights in the sale. They will then move production to their new, clean, environmentally safe, and Right-To-Work NC facility and pick up where Columbus Castings stopped. stopped. Reich LLC is even exporting to China from their NC facility.


So suppliers lost huge money, the city loses a payroll, and the employees lose all, but it looks like the railcar industry should get back to rolling.

With no competitor, prices may rise, but that's become the American way over the past 35 years or so.


----------



## jis

Except that the absence of competition is a myth. There are at least two other known combination of vendors who are quite capable of delivering trucks of the sort used by CAF and Rotem and others that use GSC trucks. Of course the trucks used by Siemens or Alstom for Avelias are a different matter altogether. They use a very different design and may only subcontract forged or cut parts to parts vendors. The truck assembly is apparently in house.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

WoodyinNYC said:


> With no competitor, prices may rise, but that's become the American way over the past 35 years or so.


Isn't that the $41M in extra costs to CAF, already mentioned?


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> So *right now* the most serious problem for the order -- and for *all passenger railcar orders in the US* -- is the bankruptcy of Columbus Castings. This was the undercarriage / truck supplier for both CAF and Nippon Sharyo. This is the "supplier" who CAF vaguely refers to when saying that the contract will cost them $41 million dollars due to the bankruptcy of a supplier.
> 
> Amtrak will probably have to file with the FRA for another Buy America exemption for all future orders because there is no other maker of suitable parts in the US. Hopefully CAF has enough trucks for the order already made... because they can't get more.
> 
> Sadly, Columbus Castings is not just bankrupt, it's also shuttered:
> 
> http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2016/08/16/columbus-castings-sale-to-firm-that-wont-reopen-it-nears-approval.html
> 
> Frankly, I think Amtrak and some of the commuter rail agencies need to go in jointly and open their own company to produce railcar parts. Sort of like British Rail operating its own railcar factories. There's too much risk in outsourcing everything.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that there will be any need for any waiver or parts manufacturing by passenger rail agencies. Already a local source has been found in Pennsylvania who are able to deliver the necessary parts (PennFab) and Kinkisharyo in Jersey City is able to assemble the trucks. It would be a pretty insane move for commuter agencies or Amtrak who have enough problem keeping their trains running as it is, to be further distracted by getting into the parts manufacturing business beyond what they already do - which is mostly for superannuated pieces of equipment that should have been retired a long time ago.
Click to expand...

Oh thank goodness. I hope PennFab really is capable, because it looks like they're going to be a sole supplier. *Again*. So if anything goes wrong with them, we're back to the same mess.


----------



## jis

Actually there are several forging, cutting and finishing vendors around. it is just that n one are as big as Columbus was. PennFab just happens to be the one that SEPTA is using. There was another outfit that was in the original running for the contract. That outfit is still around and seems to be doing fine even though they did not get the original contract.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that there will be any need for any waiver or parts manufacturing by passenger rail agencies. Already a local source has been found in Pennsylvania who are able to deliver the necessary parts (PennFab) and Kinkisharyo in Jersey City is able to assemble the trucks. It would be a pretty insane move for commuter agencies or Amtrak who have enough problem keeping their trains running as it is, to be further distracted by getting into the parts manufacturing business beyond what they already do - which is mostly for superannuated pieces of equipment that should have been retired a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh thank goodness. I hope PennFab really is capable, because it looks like they're going to be a sole supplier. *Again*. So if anything goes wrong with them, we're back to the same mess.
Click to expand...

Did PennFab buy the Columbus Castings patents, at the bankruptcy auction?


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Did PennFab buy the Columbus Castings patents, at the bankruptcy auction?


No.

AFAIK there are no patents involved in cutting some steel to the specifications provided by someone else using standard technologies.

I wonder is there is any enforceable IPR that applies to GSC trucks. They have surely been around for more than 20 years. They are not cutting edge technology. Patents expire both with passage of time and due to non-payment of maintenance fees. Any applicable ones have probably expired long back.


----------



## PRR 60

PennFab is a conventional steel fabricator. They cut and fabricate items from steel plate and rolled beams for all kinds of needs - buildings, bridges, even electric transmission structures. One of their strengths is short lead time in emergencies. When I needed something in a hurry, as long as they could get the raw material (and I would work with them on that), they could gear up and get it out the door really fast.

In this case, they fabricated the new equalizer beams from high strength steel plate. They took a large, thick plate, then plasma cut beams from that plate. When time is of the essence, this is the fastest way to go.

For a conventional rail car project, using cut plate for equalizer beams might not be economic. No matter how cleverly you nest the cut lines of multiple beams on the large plate, there is a lot of waste. Wasting heavy, thick, expensive steel is costly. Taking the time to make molds and cast the beams eliminates the wasted material, but that is all but impossible when you need the parts yesterday. So, while PennFab was able to come in and do this job when time, not cost, was the driver, it is unlikely they would be competitive in a conventional railcar production job.


----------



## jis

Bill, what was the other company that had qualified for the casting job for SEPTA but was not selected in the original contract? They are still around, right?


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> Bill, what was the other company that had qualified for the casting job for SEPTA but was not selected in the original contract? They are still around, right?


Canton Drop Forge. Yes, they are in business.


----------



## Maglev

Wow, this thread is over 160 pages! I've read several pages, but really am just wondering when the sleepers might start coming on line? Last I heard, the L_ake Shore Limited_ had lost its diner.


----------



## StriderGDM

If anyone knows the answer to that question, they're not talking.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Maglev said:


> Wow, this thread is over 160 pages! I've read several pages, but really am just wondering when the sleepers might start coming on line?


Not until at least another 137 pages.


----------



## jis

This compared to only 65 pages of FEC Update as they are within a little more than a dozen weeks of receiving their first working consist for Brightline from Siemens.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Maglev said:


> Wow, this thread is over 160 pages! I've read several pages, but really am just wondering when the sleepers might start coming on line? Last I heard, the L_ake Shore Limited_ had lost its diner.


The whole gist of this thread is that nobody knows.


----------



## Bob Dylan

The Shadow Knows!


----------



## WoodyinNYC

MikefromCrete said:


> Maglev said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, this thread is over 160 pages! I've read several pages, but really am just wondering when the sleepers might start coming on line?
> 
> 
> 
> The whole gist of this thread is that nobody knows.
Click to expand...

The whole gist of this thread is that ...

someone keeps asking, "Are we there yet?"

And we aren't. But we will be soon.


----------



## jis

Maybe. .... Any year now.


----------



## Seaboard92

Not to start another off topic ramble as this thread becomes. But how can Siemens put out a train set in less time then CAF can produce diners. Personally I prefer Siemens designs to the Viewliners. Especially the Viaggio Comfort cars that Siemens built for the ÖBB Railjet. The Viewliners for lack of better words are already out of date when they get delivered to us because the technology is obsolete already.


----------



## jis

The Siemens cars for the Brightline sets are essentially Viaggio Comfort cars that are compliant with FRA standards. And they will be semi-permanently drawbar coupled into fixed consists. They will not apparently have standard AAR couplers.

I am sure the fact that they are off the shelf stuff with minor modifications as compared to a special short run order of essentially non-standard one off design may have a lot to do with the difference, in addition to of course what appear to be either CAF specific issues or location of CAF factory specific issues or both.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

yup captain , not just off course but friggin lost !! viewliners ??


----------



## afigg

The Shadow Knows!


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Maybe. .... Any year now.


Like the Second Avenue Subway?


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

railiner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe. .... Any year now.
> 
> 
> 
> Like the Second Avenue Subway?
Click to expand...

Shhhhh, it's for City Employee's only!


----------



## battalion51

Brightline also didn't have to comply with Buy America requirements since its privately funded. Not mention, buying an off the shelf design is much simpler than something custom built. Just like buying an automobile, you can walk in and out of a dealer in a few hours with a brand new car. But if you want your fingerprints on every element, it's going to take awhile for you to get delivery.


----------



## west point

Yes Lamont Cranston does know


----------



## me_little_me

On the Crescent the other day, I asked a car attendant if he was looking forward to getting the new cars. He said he only had 35 months left until retirement and he didn't expect to see them. I wonder if he knows something the rest of us don't of if he is just prescient.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

me_little_me said:


> On the Crescent the other day, I asked a car attendant if he was looking forward to getting the new cars. He said he only had 35 months left until retirement and he didn't expect to see them. I wonder if he knows something ...


We could all make the same little joke.

I'm back to thinking that not paying for new Viewliners helps with a stressed budget. So nothing this fiscal year. And meanwhile good months in July and August will help with the budget/cash pinch.

The new fiscal year starts on October 1. Amtrak's skilled accountants will have had plenty of time to work on the new budget.

Pushing $100 or even $150 million of capital investment into the next fiscal year seems plausible to me, even good policy. But I don't imagine such a postponement won't end soon.

Now, maybe somebody has a radical idea, like refitting all the diner kitchens with fewer grills and more microwaves, or smaller kitchens and more seats, whatever. That kind of drastic decision would best be pushed from the Boardman Administration to the Moorman Administration, since Wick Moorman will have to carry it out and live with it.

So at either range of the options -- "Not much, it's just accounting jiggery" all the way to "Blow it up, we have to start over" -- we should know by the middle of October. Srsly.


----------



## VT Hokie

I'm still waiting for Amtrak to fix the air conditioning in the three Super Steel Turboliners, so I've learned to be patient.


----------



## Thirdrail7

VT Hokie said:


> I'm still waiting for Amtrak to fix the air conditioning in the three Super Steel Turboliners, so I've learned to be patient.


They fixed it the air conditioning....then shopped the entire train. However, if you powered it up in the grass, the A/C would be phenomenal!


----------



## west point

Now us rail fans have definite views on how the cars are designed. But it is the reaction of the general public to the inside that is the only thing that counts. Viewliners seem to be very acceptable. How bright line will fare ? ? Any pictures of a completed one ?

Wide body aircraft have modified airline passenger perceptions. That spills over to the Amfleets type perceptions.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

west point said:


> Wide body aircraft have modified airline passenger perceptions. That spills over to the Amfleets type perceptions.


Are you referring to the gracefully rounded "fuselage" of the single-level Amfleet cars?


----------



## PVD

Airplane manufacturers have been very good at studying the lessons in ergonomics offered by the wide bodies and have drastically improved the interiors of single aisle aircraft also. Other than seating arrangements (on almost all planes) the improvements have been substantial.


----------



## west point

Cho Cho -- yes . Would like to know how general public likes the interiors of Horizons vs Amfleets ? The spaciousness of V-2s and Brightliners might cause a greater demand for Amfleets to be replaced and displaced to surge fleet status ?


----------



## PVD

_No V2 ordered will replace an Amfleet or Horizon car carrying passengers. That being said, there are lots of good reasons to move ahead with fleet replacement, and any new design is certain to incorporate lots of interior design lessons learned over the lat 30 + years._


----------



## Thirdrail7

By the time these cars enter service, they may already need replacing!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I tend to think, as a logical point, either the Viewliner 2s that have not already been delivered will enter service in the next 2 years, or they will not enter service for Amtrak at all.


----------



## jis

It would be worth studying at some point what is it that makes the Siemens' and Alstoms of the world so different from the Nippon-Sharyos and CAFs of the world.


----------



## JohannFarley

Honestly it's probably as simple as organization


----------



## Slayer Essence

I can live with the delays as long as there is progress and these cars are coming. However, I'm more concerned with quality. How well are these cars going to hold up before they need replacement?


----------



## Blackwolf

I'm not so sure I would lump Nippon-Sharyo into the same lot as CAF. N-S ran into a significant design flaw that was unfortunately disastrous to the production timeline, however there have been no "smoke and mirrors" excuses or cold silence leaving the lot of us wondering just what the heck is happening. In fact, redesigning the failed car and getting the production line up and running at full-tilt while simultaneously working on multiple other contract orders in the same facility for other customers speaks to a very impressive organization to me. Everyone (and every company) has their flub from time to time. I do recall that when N-S was awarded the bi-level order, there was considerable excitement about the efficient and punctual Japanese company being chosen. It is annoying that it happened, but better it occur in initial testing than when 130 cars have been built and are languishing around at the factory for endless months with a potential massive defect(s) that threatens them ever seeing a revenue passenger (I'm looking at you CAF.)

If Siemens ran into a road-block with the cars for Brightline as significant as N-S did with the bi-levels, the result may well be just as substantial. They've just not designed and built a ground-up vehicle for the American market, but instead have only modified existing and proven products to meet regulations.

Counter this all with CAF, who has been anything but transparent and won't release even the slightest bit of information either in official documents or casual updates. If the VL-II order was 100% private capital being spent by a company, I would be no less frustrated with all the delays but not have a leg to stand on in terms of right to progress reports on the project. However, this is funded by public money, and as such, I do have a right to know if those funds are being expended correctly and the product is made on time and correctly. In fact, I'm of the belief that the bid should have required full disclosure of information updates on the project in regular scheduled reports. Amtrak itself is to be responsible just as fully as CAF, and this order is not only a threat to the planned expansion but could be a serious liability for long-distance passenger rail in the coming months and years. And now, we're bringing up the "if" word in reference to the revenue passenger-carrying portion of this order when speaking of their delivery. As in, "if" they ever see revenue service. Should that transpire, what you get to eat in the diner is the least of our worries; there may be no railroad to ride on beyond regional commuter service in very short order. Dangerous and infuriating.


----------



## PVD

A simple "this is what our problems are, and here is what specific steps are being undertaken to correct them, and this is the realistic timeline" would make a lot of folks happy. Fix problems before fixing blame.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> A simple "this is what our problems are, and here is what specific steps are being undertaken to correct them, and this is the realistic timeline" would make a lot of folks happy. Fix problems before fixing blame.


It would also be nice if we knew somehow what role Amtrak played in either causing or helping mitigate the issues.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

PVD said:


> Airplane manufacturers have been very good at studying the lessons in ergonomics offered by the wide bodies and have drastically improved the interiors of single aisle aircraft also. Other than seating arrangements (on almost all planes) the improvements have been substantial.


That is certainly true. Be it Boeing or Airbus, when their show off their newest aircraft, the ergonomics is nothing less than the state of the air. Wide reclining leather seats, personal LCD entertainment displays, rotating mood lighting, piano lounges, bedroom suites, lap pools  , and so on.

However, the airlines themselves then "customize" the aircraft. All that seems to disappear, and the thinnest, narrowest, coach seats are packed in as tightly they can be legally put. I am not sure that this would be what I would want to see, in any new Amtrak coach cars.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> However, the airlines themselves then "customize" the aircraft. All that seems to disappear, and the thinnest, narrowest, coach seats are packed in as tightly they can be legally put. I am not sure that this would be what I would want to see, in any new Amtrak coach cars.


Actually it is quite inaccurate to say all of that disappear. Yes they do disappear in steerage. But many of them do stay around up front, sometimes in spectacular ways. The First Class Suites and the lounge area, specially on the A380s and even on some 77Ws are quite phenomenal. Even the Business Class Lie Flat seat cabins are a very nice hard product, and many airlines do a superb job with the soft product that they lay on it.

And none of that comes cheap for the customers either. But there is extremely significant willingness to pay from adequate number of people to sustain such on specific routes. There are many routes today that simply do not support financially and there fore do not have any First Class Service anymore. The highest class is Business Class. That is financial reality. If your customer does not have the wherewithal to pay the actual price for the luxury one just scales luxury down to where there is willingness to pay. Some routes can support only Coach and even very little BC, so be it.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Blackwolf said:


> CAF ... is funded by public money, and as such, I do have a right to know if those funds are being expended correctly and the product is made on time and correctly. In fact, I'm of the belief that the bid should have required full disclosure of information updates on the project in regular scheduled reports. Amtrak itself is to be responsible just as fully as CAF, and this order is not only a threat to the planned expansion but could be a serious liability for long-distance passenger rail in the coming months and years. And now, we're bringing up the "if" word in reference to the revenue passenger-carrying portion of this order when speaking of their delivery. As in, "if" they ever see revenue service. Should that transpire, what you get to eat in the diner is the least of our worries; there may be no railroad to ride on beyond regional commuter service in very short order. Dangerous and infuriating.


My understanding is that Nippon Sharyo failed the minimum crash-worthiness test. That sort of thing certainly should be a matter of public record:

Minimum safety regulations are,

check one,

__ met,

__ NOT met.

CAF's shortcomings instead were described (in Inspector General's report iirc) as dozens of small failures, but none as affecting safety.

CAF did get around to mentioning major trouble with a supplier, one that went bankrupt, and its empty facility has been pictured on these blogs.

I lean to the view that many or most of CAF's problems were not of their causing, ranging from labor force inadequacy to Amtrak change orders and other interference. The fact that CAF and Amtrak have so successfully kept these secrets suggests that Amtrak may have a good bit of responsibility, and that nonetheless both parties would be willing to work together again soon.

I'm also taking great cheer to see posts suggesting that the lateness of the Viewliner II diners and sleepers means they might never ride the rails! In the stock market, such panic would surely signal the end of a bear market, with a turnaround soon to come.


----------



## neroden

The biggest problem was that CAF, being from Spain, did not know various things a local company would have known: that (a) they couldn't hire good pre-trained welders easily in Elmira, (b) Columbus Castings was in financially dangerous shape, etc. Local knowledge would have helped a lot. OR construction of the vehicles in Spain, that would have solved the problem too. (Damn Buy America.)


----------



## PVD

Plenty of foreign companies conduct business in the US quite successfully. You hire people who know the conditions and markets in which you are competing. If you don't do that you fail, regardless of where your headquarters is located. Buy American compliance is not a valid excuse for poor supply chain and logistics management, If Siemens and Alstom and Bombardier and others can manage it, CAF should have been able to deal with it also. You need to know what you are agreeing to, and if you can't meet the terms of a deal and you sign it anyway, you deserve what you get.


----------



## neroden

Bombardier isn't managing it -- look up their Mexican outsourcing disaster -- and we'll see about Alstom. :sigh: Siemens seems to know what they're doing.

Don't ask me why the railroad passenger car manufacturing industry is particularly bad at this.


----------



## west point

You would think that since CAF has / is doing other work in the USA they would have known that there are unique problems building rail cars in the USA ?


----------



## PVD

What still puzzles me is the variability in performance from project to project. Like the struggles Kawasaki had with WMATA, that were not there in prior jobs. NS managed other builds, the current consortium project hasn't gone well. I understand that there are differences from batch to batch, but project management procedures shouldn't fail like that. In comment on building overseas, keep in mind that because the US market cars would need to be FRA compliant (in most cases) they would not be off the shelf designs that the factories were already executing. I'm not sure the results would be any better.


----------



## DevalDragon

Easy to explain - there is not enough volume to maintain proficiency By the time they get good at making a passenger car the contract ends and everything is disbanded. By the time the next contract comes around, they have to learn everything all over again.

The Viewliner I sleepers are a perfect example of this.



neroden said:


> Bombardier isn't managing it -- look up their Mexican outsourcing disaster -- and we'll see about Alstom. :sigh: Siemens seems to know what they're doing.
> 
> Don't ask me why the railroad passenger car manufacturing industry is particularly bad at this.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

DevalDragon said:


> Easy to explain - there is not enough volume to maintain proficiency By the time they get good at making a passenger car, the contract ends and everything is disbanded. By the time the next contract comes around, they have to learn everything all over again.


Another example of how *"The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak".*

If the next order for single-level coaches were to be for 1,200 and not for a mere 600 or so, then almost all the new equipment would be built during a long, multi-year period of proficiency.

Of course, we'd need a much larger system, with more trains, more routes, more frequencies, to make good use of twice the number of cars. But that also would be a good thing in many other ways.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

WoodyinNYC said:


> Of course, we'd need a much larger system, with more trains, more routes, more frequencies, to make good use of twice the number of cars. But that also would be a good thing in many other ways.


Oh my god, that sounds horrible!


----------



## CraigDK

Any new rumors facts on when we might see some deliveries? If my memory is accurate (maybe it was in the OIG report) they where expecting to begin delivering dinners sometime by the end of the month (although I wasn't expecting them to make that date).


----------



## jis

There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and there was a pulse discernible there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.


----------



## VT Hokie

Out of sight, out of mind? Maybe Amtrak is hoping that eventually people forget about them like they forgot about the three RTL-III Turboliner sets that are still sitting in Bear, DE.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

With the Viewliner Diners nowhere to be seen, maybe we'll start talking about refurbishing some Heritage diners to support alternative food and beverage service models... h34r:


----------



## Ryan




----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and * there was a pulse discernible* there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.









h34r: h34r:


----------



## Ryan

I'm heading out of the country, so I'm sure they'll be moving week after next.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Of course we have a pulse.

New fiscal year.

Any other questions?


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and * there was a pulse discernible* there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> h34r: h34r:
Click to expand...

Looks like that heart needs a few stents at least if not a CABG or two


----------



## Palmetto

Hey! I have two of those [stents]!


----------



## Andrew

How many CAF coaches are now in revenue service for Amtrak?


----------



## PRR 60

Andrew said:


> How many CAF coaches are now in revenue service for Amtrak?


Seriously?


----------



## Ryan

All of them. Every coach that has been ordered is in service.


----------



## PRR 60

Ryan said:


> All of them. Every coach that has been ordered is in service.


Kind of finally puts to bed that old saying that there is no such thing as a stupid question.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of them. Every coach that has been ordered is in service.
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of finally puts to bed that old saying that there is no such thing as a stupid question.
Click to expand...

:giggle:


----------



## Ryan

They're pulled exclusively by the Amtrak component of the Charger order.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Andrew said:


> How many CAF coaches are now in revenue service for Amtrak?


All of the pure baggage cars have been deliver. Some may or may not be in service pending adjustments / issues.

No dinner, sleepers, or bagged crew cars have been deliver.

No coach cars including in this order. The coach for Midwest are in a different thread. (Delayed, unknown ETA). The coach for the Florida service are also in a different thread. (But are moving along).

In short you going to have to travel to sunny Florida to ride in a new longer distance coach. If that even the correct way to describe them.

.


----------



## KnightRail

Coaches/Cars/Carriages/Wagons/Vehicles/Units are all terms that someone could use to articulate a rail car. Someone asked a question using the term coaches. That doesn't automatically mean he was asking how many rail cars were delivered in a 'Coach Class' configuration. Regardless the answer is 70 rail cars all in full baggage configuration. Rough crowd tonight.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KnightRail said:


> Coaches/Cars/Carriages/Wagons/Vehicles/Units are all terms that someone could use to articulate a rail car. Someone asked a question using the term coaches. That doesn't automatically mean he was asking how many rail cars were delivered in a 'Coach Class' configuration. Regardless the answer is 70 rail cars all in full baggage configuration. Rough crowd tonight.


I do believe a couple of those answers were in reaction to who asked the question as much as what was asked.


----------



## jis

The most common usage in the US is to use the term "coach" in the context of passenger rail vehicles is to refer to a "Coach Class" vehicle. Alternatively they may be referred to as "Chair Car".

In common usage outside the US a passenger rail vehicle is often referred to as a Coach.

But then again outside of the US influenced places Coaches ride on Bogies while Passenger Cars in the US ride on Trucks.

Notice that terminology used in the US is somewhat more closely related to common road vehicles, than in other places, since I suppose the US of its own choice believes that passengers riding on rail is an anomaly.


----------



## A Voice

KnightRail said:


> Coaches/Cars/Carriages/Wagons/Vehicles/Units are all terms that someone could use to articulate a rail car. Someone asked a question using the term coaches. That doesn't automatically mean he was asking how many rail cars were delivered in a 'Coach Class' configuration. Regardless the answer is 70 rail cars all in full baggage configuration. Rough crowd tonight.


But none of the Viewliner Cars/Carriages/Wagons/Vehicles/Units are articulated. They all ride on a pair of trucks.


----------



## PerRock

A Voice said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coaches/Cars/Carriages/Wagons/Vehicles/Units are all terms that someone could use to articulate a rail car. Someone asked a question using the term coaches. That doesn't automatically mean he was asking how many rail cars were delivered in a 'Coach Class' configuration. Regardless the answer is 70 rail cars all in full baggage configuration. Rough crowd tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> But none of the Viewliner Cars/Carriages/Wagons/Vehicles/Units are articulated. They all ride on a pair of trucks.
Click to expand...

Wrong type or "articulate":



> ar·tic·u·late
> 
> 
> _adjective_
> 
> ärˈtikyələt/
> 
> 
> *1*.
> (of a person or a person's words) having or showing the ability to speak fluently and coherently.


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> Rough crowd tonight.



Tonight??? Is that all???


----------



## KnightRail

Thirdrail7 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rough crowd tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> Tonight??? Is that all???
Click to expand...

It seems they tend to gather here especially on days that end with y


----------



## Paulus

jis said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and * there was a pulse discernible* there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> h34r: h34r:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looks like that heart needs a few stents at least if not a CABG or two
Click to expand...

Looking at that, while training on EKGs:


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> All of them. Every coach that has been ordered is in service.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Paulus said:


> Looking at that, while training on EKGs:


It does not look like a real EKG.

Someone playing around with the wires?

However if it was real. A-fib with a AV-Block.

Top part of the heart is non-working, no message are been communicated to the bottom. The bottom is contracting on its own at 40 beats per min or less.


----------



## JohannFarley

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at that, while training on EKGs:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not look like a real EKG.
> 
> Someone playing around with the wires?
> 
> However if it was real. A-fib with a AV-Block.
> 
> Top part of the heart is non-working, no message are been communicated to the bottom. The bottom is contracting on its own at 40 beats per min or less.
Click to expand...

Maybe its a reading of CAF right now


----------



## afigg

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at that, while training on EKGs:
> 
> 
> 
> It does not look like a real EKG.
> 
> Someone playing around with the wires?
Click to expand...

The image appears to be of an acoustic recording of a heart beat sound, not an ECG. The large peak waveform would be the S1 sound at the start of the Systolic interval, the smaller peak waveform would be the S2 sound at the start of the Diastolic interval.

Which is interesting, but has little to do with CAF and the question of where the heck are the remaining Viewliner IIs cars, starting with the 25 diner cars? With a new CEO in charge, Moorman could show leadership by stating what the reasons for the delay are and when the diner cars are expected to be delivered.


----------



## Ryan

You guys are the greatest nerds ever.


----------



## Acela150




----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> You guys are the greatest nerds ever.


I had no idea that my off the cuff joke would unleash such horrendous amount of nerdiness!!! 8-!


----------



## Brian Battuello

We're so nerdy we can trainspot passenger cars that haven't even been built yet!


----------



## Steve4031

Another 2 pages of nothing.


----------



## Ryan

Thanks for your valuable contribution to the conversation.


----------



## jis

You should apply to become mods  More nothing


----------



## VT Hokie

I'm afraid that CAF is entering Super Steel territory. Any chance these cars go the way of the RTL-III Turboliners?


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are no new rumors or facts that have come to light of late that I am aware of. Usually if something was moving and * there was a pulse discernible* there are people from within Amtrak on this board that would give us a hint. None have been forthcoming so far.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> h34r: h34r:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looks like that heart needs a few stents at least if not a CABG or two
Click to expand...


Is this better?






All eyes are on




h34r: h34r:


----------



## CraigDK

Thirdrail7 said:


> All eyes are on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 306.jpg
> 
> h34r: h34r:


Julian calendar date?


----------



## jis

Nov 1/2 it is....

So the engine assignment has taken place, is it?


----------



## afigg

Thirdrail7 said:


> All eyes are on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 306.jpg
> 
> h34r: h34r:


The final delivery date on the contract has been extended to 306 months from contract award?  Hmm. probably not.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

CraigDK said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All eyes are on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 306.jpg
> 
> h34r: h34r:
> 
> 
> 
> Julian calendar date?
Click to expand...

Dang, didn't think of that. Bet it is.


----------



## PVD

so, since this is a leap year, that would be November 1 ?


----------



## CraigDK

PVD said:


> so, since this is a leap year, that would be November 1 ?


306 would be November 1st this year.


----------



## PVD

Sometimes it feels like every charity on the planet sends me a calendar. Shockingly, none are Julian.


----------



## jis




----------



## PVD

I have a similar one I downloaded, but it has a separate section at the bottom to reflect the leap years.I have a couple of Jewish calendars also, those get trickier because they are lunar based and dates move relative to a Gregorian.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Only vaguely more topical than Julian calendars, but at least Viewliner related.

There was a strange image on a news story about an Amtrak "Stowaway". He wasn't really a stowaway, but used stolen credit cards to buy Amtrak miles, then use the miles to buy rooms on the Capitol Limited.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/man-accused-of-living-as-a-stowaway-on-amtrak-trains/458790871

The story was typical local news fluff, but it included a very strange shot of Amtrak equipment. At about 1:01, there is a shot of the last four cars of a train. The first visible car is clearly the "Great Dome" car, now currently on the Adirondack and before that on Downeaster service. It is followed by (most likely) our old friend the 8400 dining car, and then two conventional Viewliner I sleepers. But there is something very odd about the rear end of the last sleeper. It is a quick shot, but it looks completely clear, and you can see something inside the train.

Obviously some very strange stock footage. Any idea what consist this is, and why the back of the train looks so odd?


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

I don't think that last car is a "conventional Viewliner I sleeper", but instead, one of the Viewliner prototypes that has been converted into an inspection car.

Edit: American View #10004?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

That's the inspection car.

Wonder if this was the train that went along the old SL east route to gauge viability of starting a new service between NOL & JAX?


----------



## Brian Battuello

I'd forgotten about the inspection car, thanks. But what a strange consist to use in a totally unrelated news story!


----------



## Seaboard92

The consist in the photo is the gulf coast inspection train.


----------



## jis

I have been in that last car during the AEM-7 Farewell excursion.


----------



## Palmetto

How did it ride? 8400 was awful when I rode it on the Crescent.


----------



## PVD

I was in 8400 a few weeks ago Northbound on the Crescent out of Atlanta. Not a great ride, but I never know whether it's the car or the track. Lot of firsts for me,

I had an ACS-64 i/o AEM-7 or HHP-8 and swapped for 2 units including Vets 42 in Washington, going home I had 8400 and the second unit was a P32-8 not a Genesis, and we swapped to Vets 642 in Washington.


----------



## pennyk

I have been in 8400 on both the Silver Meteor and the Lakeshore Limited. I did not have any issues with the ride. I thoroughly enjoyed the diner - especially since I lucked out on being on the Lakeshore Limited on its "inaugural run."


----------



## Ryan

My experience on the LSL (although not the inaugural) matches Penny's.


----------



## PVD

So it is likely to have been rough track rather than the car. That's good to hear. Overall it was a pretty good trip. Lot's of UK residents trying to get to NY to go home on the Queen Mary, they came inland to the Crescent because the Florida trains were in trouble from the storm.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> So it is likely to have been rough track rather than the car. That's good to hear. Overall it was a pretty good trip. Lot's of UK residents trying to get to NY to go home on the Queen Mary, they came inland to the Crescent because the Florida trains were in trouble from the storm.


Or it could have been that during your ride it was near the next maintenance cycle and indeed the shocks needed an adjustment while penny rode it immediately after maintenance fresh out of shop too.


----------



## PVD

Fair point. I should have asked the diner crew, but it was just an LSA, a waiter, and a chef. They were really busy so I didn't chat it up with them.


----------



## jis

Admittedly the GSC trucks are not as finicky as the Pioneer trucks, but still it makes a difference on when it was maintained last.


----------



## Seaboard92

Also another thing that makes a difference is if the springs are balanced right. Each car has four sets of springs. Two on each truck that serve to balance the weight. The part that has the kitchen would be a heavier spring then one that is the dining room. And that's from my understanding from talking to a NS road foreman.


----------



## jis

Good point. This is the reason that the Viewliner II Bag-Dorms have "red" springs at the baggage and unpainted springs at the dorm end, visually denoting the difference in spring gauge.


----------



## Seaboard92

So there is a chance the 8400 could be running with improper springs. Or the springs could be coming up on replacement time.


----------



## PVD

It is reasonable to theorize that springs could be an issue. It is also possible that I sat down to dinner while we went over bad track. There seemed to be a considerable lateral component to the movement not just vertical, I do not know how much the springs play into that, I'd defer to someone with greater knowledge of that. Other folks who rode in the car on other trips have not had a problem, but I don't know how recently that was, my trip was 2 weeks ago.


----------



## jis

In my experience generally it is worn out shock absorbers that kill ride quality more often than anything to do with springs.


----------



## Palmetto

PVD said:


> It is reasonable to theorize that springs could be an issue. It is also possible that I sat down to dinner while we went over bad track. There seemed to be a considerable lateral component to the movement not just vertical, I do not know how much the springs play into that, I'd defer to someone with greater knowledge of that. Other folks who rode in the car on other trips have not had a problem, but I don't know how recently that was, my trip was 2 weeks ago.


That was my experience as well. Violent lateral motion so bad that the flower vases fell over. Fortunately, hold fake flowers, so no water spill. This was at the end of July.


----------



## hastybob

Back on subject - look for a move from CAF next week. I am hearing that one diner will be coming out and heading to Miami.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

hastybob said:


> I am hearing that one diner will be coming out and heading to Miami.


Wow, one car!

I guess that does double the number of Viewliner Diners in the world.


----------



## Steve4031

Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be on 48 when I ride it in 2 weeks.


----------



## Ziv

I was just re-reading this thread from the first entry in 2012 through the first part of 2013. And we are going to see the first dining car soon! And we haven't gotten into 2017 yet! ;-)

I hope this means we will actually see new diners in use by the spring. Maybe a sleeper or two by summer? Or is that being too optimistic?


----------



## CraigDK

Ziv said:


> I was just re-reading this thread from the first entry in 2012 through the first part of 2013. And we are going to see the first dining car soon! And we haven't gotten into 2017 yet! ;-)
> 
> I hope this means we will actually see new diners in use by the spring. Maybe a sleeper or two by summer? Or is that being too optimistic?


I suppose it is possible, but given the track record I am not yet ready to bet money on it...


----------



## jis

Steve4031 said:


> Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be on 48 when I ride it in 2 weeks.


I doubt 48 will get its full Diner back until at least 4 or so new Diners are in service.


----------



## west point

jis said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'll get lucky and it will be on 48 when I ride it in 2 weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt 48 will get its full Diner back until at least 4 or so new Diners are in service.
Click to expand...

Only if no more Heritage diners go tango uniform


----------



## JohannFarley

Bottom line is one diner is better than none


----------



## Seaboard92

All it takes is one to open the flood gates


----------



## WoodyinNYC

hastybob said:


> Back on subject - look for a move from CAF next week. I am hearing that one diner will be coming out and heading to Miami.


We were advised in this thread to keep our eyes on 306, which works out to be Nov 1, Tuesday.

One diner? Well, it's a start, with 59 more Viewliner IIs to go.


----------



## Thirdrail7

WoodyinNYC said:


> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back on subject - look for a move from CAF next week. I am hearing that one diner will be coming out and heading to Miami.
> 
> 
> 
> We were advised in this thread to keep our eyes on 306, which works out to be Nov 1, Tuesday.
> One diner? Well, it's a start, with 59 more Viewliner IIs to go.
Click to expand...

Excelsior is powering up with orders to pursue!


----------



## keelhauled

Thirdrail7 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back on subject - look for a move from CAF next week. I am hearing that one diner will be coming out and heading to Miami.
> 
> 
> 
> We were advised in this thread to keep our eyes on 306, which works out to be Nov 1, Tuesday.
> One diner? Well, it's a start, with 59 more Viewliner IIs to go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Excelsior is powering up with orders to pursue!
Click to expand...

That story had a rather unhappy ending for Excelsior as I recall...


----------



## tommylicious

Where are these cars already?


----------



## CraigDK

Just thinking out loud. If it is only this one diner, is it reasonable to assume that this one might be another "prototype" that has incorporated that latest rounds of fixes and changes? Which probably means months before we see any other diners. Or will others be following soon?

Obviously I am hoping for the latter, and that Amtrak decided that it made more sense to pickup the one instead of waiting another couple of weeks or so for a batch of 4 or 5.


----------



## A Voice

keelhauled said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back on subject - look for a move from CAF next week. I am hearing that one diner will be coming out and heading to Miami.
> 
> 
> 
> We were advised in this thread to keep our eyes on 306, which works out to be Nov 1, Tuesday.
> One diner? Well, it's a start, with 59 more Viewliner IIs to go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Excelsior is powering up with orders to pursue!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That story had a rather unhappy ending for Excelsior as I recall...
Click to expand...

So then, the problem all along has been the engineers overthought the plumbing...?


----------



## neroden

CraigDK said:


> Just thinking out loud. If it is only this one diner, is it reasonable to assume that this one might be another "prototype" that has incorporated that latest rounds of fixes and changes? Which probably means months before we see any other diners. Or will others be following soon?


I'm guessing this one is the "release candidate" with the latest rounds of fixes and changes, and that they are testing it once again. I guess testing will take a week or two probably.

However, the thing is, the way it is SUPPOSED to work is that the "release candidate" is 99% correct. This obviously didn't happen during the last round of prototypes at CAF. But if this one is indeed essentially correct, with only one or two very minor punchlist items to fix, then the remaining diners (which are already corrected to match this one) will roll out in short order, basically as soon as testing is done.


----------



## Blackwolf

And hopefully (I'm being selfish here, full disclosure) before March. I am desiring both a VL2 diner experience and to simply -have- a diner when traveling on the LSL the week before St. Patricks.


----------



## JohannFarley

Yeah I'm hoping the LSL has a diner for my trip to chicago in July with the family. Its our first LD trip and I finally convinced them to take the train.


----------



## Acela150

Blackwolf said:


> And hopefully (I'm being selfish here, full disclosure) before March. I am desiring both a VL2 diner experience and to simply -have- a diner when traveling on the LSL the week before St. Patricks.


I think that there would be a chance for March IF they have a small handful in service.



JohannFarley said:


> Yeah I'm hoping the LSL has a diner for my trip to chicago in July with the family. Its our first LD trip and I finally convinced them to take the train.


I think your chances are better then Blackwolf's.. Sorry Blackwolf.


----------



## JohannFarley

But who knows Blackwolf, maybe (at the risk of inciting laughter and yeah-rights) this will be a quick rollout of at least the diners. (Yes I know given the rest of this thread that's unlikely, but maybe being overtly optimistic will help.)


----------



## Thirdrail7

A Voice said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hastybob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back on subject - look for a move from CAF next week. I am hearing that one diner will be coming out and heading to Miami.
> 
> 
> 
> We were advised in this thread to keep our eyes on 306, which works out to be Nov 1, Tuesday.
> One diner? Well, it's a start, with 59 more Viewliner IIs to go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Excelsior is powering up with orders to pursue!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That story had a rather unhappy ending for Excelsior as I recall...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So then, the problem all along has been the engineers overthought the plumbing...?
Click to expand...

From one doctor to another, I would say the drains were definitely stopped.  Hopefully, Excelsior's trans-warp drive doesn't have any troubles tomorrow.



neroden said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just thinking out loud. If it is only this one diner, is it reasonable to assume that this one might be another "prototype" that has incorporated that latest rounds of fixes and changes? Which probably means months before we see any other diners. Or will others be following soon?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing this one is the "release candidate" with the latest rounds of fixes and changes, and that they are testing it once again. I guess testing will take a week or two probably.
> 
> However, the thing is, the way it is SUPPOSED to work is that the "release candidate" is 99% correct. This obviously didn't happen during the last round of prototypes at CAF. But if this one is indeed essentially correct, with only one or two very minor punchlist items to fix, then the remaining diners (which are already corrected to match this one) will roll out in short order, basically as soon as testing is done.
Click to expand...

Keep your eye on the birdie. Unless something dramatic happens, this car should not return to CAF. It will enter revenue service after a few field mods.


----------



## CraigDK

neroden said:


> I'm guessing this one is the "release candidate" with the latest rounds of fixes and changes, and that they are testing it once again. I guess testing will take a week or two probably.
> 
> However, the thing is, the way it is SUPPOSED to work is that the "release candidate" is 99% correct. This obviously didn't happen during the last round of prototypes at CAF. But if this one is indeed essentially correct, with only one or two very minor punchlist items to fix, then the remaining diners (which are already corrected to match this one) will roll out in short order, basically as soon as testing is done.





Thirdrail7 said:


> Keep your eye on the birdie. Unless something dramatic happens, this car should not return to CAF. It will enter revenue service after a few field mods.


That sounds like excellent news. Now the last thing to wonder about, will be it one of the previously sent out prototypes or a car that was later down the line...


----------



## JohannFarley

I would guess it would be the diner that was sent out with the sleeper and bag dorm a while back, unless those are still out somewhere


----------



## CraigDK

JohannFarley said:


> I would guess it would be the diner that was sent out with the sleeper and bag dorm a while back, unless those are still out somewhere


I am fairly sure those cars all went back to CAF. If it is a different diner, I would suspect that the changes made where fairly substantial , but I am just speculating.


----------



## JohannFarley

Yeah it would honestly depend on how substantial the changes were. I would assume if they were a few smaller fixes they would use the first one, but if there were major design flaws that required parts to be completely renovated, then I would assume it would be a different one.


----------



## jis

Just wait another day and you'd know for sure, since we know what the number was of the cars that came out back then.


----------



## JohannFarley

Very true


----------



## Thirdrail7

It should be a different number.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Thirdrail7 said:


> It should be a different number.


Picture taken on the day the original Viewliner II contract was signed, right?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

I see no reports of diesels heading for Elmira so I guess it was all another rumor ??


----------



## PVD

Another board is reporting Amtrak 132, cafe car, 520 with NS099 on the way. We shall soon see.......


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I, too, read a post somewhere in the last few days about the engine, etc being sent to get the diner tomorrow, I think.


----------



## PRR 60

PVD said:


> Another board is reporting Amtrak 132, cafe car, 520 with NS099 on the way. We shall soon see.......


Not just a report, photos. Maybe our long national nightmare is over?


----------



## spidersfan351

I have also just heard from a reliable source that the new diner is coming south on the Silver Meteor tomorrow evening (November 2nd) to go to Hialeah for final fitting. That would suggest it coming out of CAF some time today, I would imagine.


----------



## Acela150

Perhaps ThirdRail could be nice enough to confirm that plan? Cause if it is. I will go out and get a photo or two.


----------



## edjbox

Someone posted pictures of the move on another rail forum; "Annapolis" is the name of the dining car


----------



## Elack801

Here is a quick picture heading north towards Belden tunnel


----------



## afigg

edjbox said:


> Someone posted pictures of the move on another rail forum; "Annapolis" is the name of the dining car


According to trainorders, the dining car that is being moved to Albany is 68001 Annapolis. This is the second diner car in the production sequence. 68000 Albany was the initial Viewliner II diner car that was sent out twice previously for testing.

Shots of the exterior will not reveal much. What will be interesting whenever they get posted are shots of the interior so we can see if there are visible changes from the "baseline" seen earlier.


----------



## tommylicious

Hopefully they won't serve "Boardman Slop" on that beauty! http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/06/18/18-oitnb-food.w529.h352.jpg Bring back fresh, cooked-to-order meals on all overnite trains!


----------



## neroden

Personally, I'd settle for largely-prepackaged meals which have actual ingredients lists, as opposed to the "fell off the back of a truck, we don't know what's in them" policy which prevails today.


----------



## jis

tommylicious said:


> Hopefully they won't serve "Boardman Slop" on that beauty! http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/06/18/18-oitnb-food.w529.h352.jpg Bring back fresh, cooked-to-order meals on all overnite trains!


Please tell us when was the last time you had fresh cooked to order food on all items on any overnight Amtrak train.


----------



## PVD

The sad part of it is that pre packaged meals don't have to be bad, fly international first class and you get some pretty good stuff.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> The sad part of it is that pre packaged meals don't have to be bad, fly international first class and you get some pretty good stuff.


Yes. pre-packaged food is somewhere between very good to spectacularly excellent, depending on which airline and which class (Business or First) we are talking about. Of course absolutely nothing is freshly prepared on board a plane except minor things like baking chocolate chip cookies and such.


----------



## PVD

Midwest Express 717 - fresh baked choc. chip whole cabin smelled great....


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

tommylicious said:


> Hopefully they won't serve "Boardman Slop" on that beauty! http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/vulture/2015/06/18/18-oitnb-food.w529.h352.jpg Bring back fresh, cooked-to-order meals on all overnite trains!


Wow, the kitchen area in the Viewliner diners is much larger than I remember.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I doubt we'll ever see freshly prepared food on Amtrak ever again. Thankfully there's still Iowa Pacific for those who would like to experience such a thing as tasty food on a train.


----------



## CraigDK

spidersfan351 said:


> I have also just heard from a reliable source that the new diner is coming south on the Silver Meteor tomorrow evening (November 2nd) to go to Hialeah for final fitting. That would suggest it coming out of CAF some time today, I would imagine.


I wonder final fitting involves.



afigg said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone posted pictures of the move on another rail forum; "Annapolis" is the name of the dining car
> 
> 
> 
> According to trainorders, the dining car that is being moved to Albany is 68001 Annapolis. This is the second diner car in the production sequence. 68000 Albany was the initial Viewliner II diner car that was sent out twice previously for testing.
> 
> Shots of the exterior will not reveal much. What will be interesting whenever they get posted are shots of the interior so we can see if there are visible changes from the "baseline" seen earlier.
Click to expand...

It is good to see a picture of it even if the exterior doesn't answer too many questions; at least we now there has been some sort of progress. Some of the speculation (and even comments after it rolled out) on the diners elsewhere...


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> Perhaps ThirdRail could be nice enough to confirm that plan? Cause if it is. I will go out and get a photo or two.


Confirmed...if everything goes according to plan.



Devil's Advocate said:


> I doubt we'll ever see freshly prepared food on Amtrak ever again. Thankfully there's still Iowa Pacific for those who would like to experience such a thing as tasty food on a train.



Amtrak add on stuff like Wifi installation etc.


----------



## capltd29

Devil's Advocate said:


> I doubt we'll ever see freshly prepared food on Amtrak ever again. Thankfully there's still Iowa Pacific for those who would like to experience such a thing as tasty food on a train.


With a few notable exceptions, I've had good food on Amtrak. I'm not an uppity food snob, but I've never felt like I had to send it back. Hardly "slop"...but whatever fits the AU narrative.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Thirdrail7 said:


> What are you talking about DA? That is indeed  an Amtrak train! h34r: :hi:


I honestly have no strong opinion about whatever subforum is best for Iowa Pacific. I felt PRR made a reasonable case for leaving it where it was. I guess I just didn't really understand the controversy.



capltd29 said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt we'll ever see freshly prepared food on Amtrak ever again. Thankfully there's still Iowa Pacific for those who would like to experience such a thing as tasty food on a train.
> 
> 
> 
> With a few notable exceptions, I've had good food on Amtrak. I'm not an uppity food snob, but I've never felt like I had to send it back. Hardly "slop"...but whatever fits the AU narrative.
Click to expand...

 Good compared to what, exactly? I cannot recall ever seening anyone on Amtrak send the food back. Possibly because sending it back wouldn't accomplish anything if they didn't bother to cook it on the train in the first place.


----------



## StriderGDM

You've never ridden with me then.I have sent food back and gotten better food in its place. I believe once it was a steak on the Crescent and the other time was a meal on the Acela that was overcooked.


----------



## Palmetto

jis said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The sad part of it is that pre packaged meals don't have to be bad, fly international first class and you get some pretty good stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. pre-packaged food is somewhere between very good to spectacularly excellent, depending on which airline and which class (Business or First) we are talking about. Of course absolutely nothing is freshly prepared on board a plane except minor things like baking chocolate chip cookies and such.
Click to expand...

I had a nice fresh-made raspberry sundae on American last month. Big deal


----------



## Devil's Advocate

StriderGDM said:


> You've never ridden with me then.I have sent food back and gotten better food in its place. I believe once it was a steak on the Crescent and the other time was a meal on the Acela that was overcooked.


This is a bit of a tangent but in a former life I worked in the restaurant industry and after seeing what can happen around corners and behind doors I never sent anything back again. I either eat it as-is or have it removed from my bill. I doubt you're at much risk on Amtrak's single level trains. On the dual level trains I'd probably avoid sending anything back just to be on the safe side.


----------



## Fan Railer

68001 went south on today's 97.


----------



## mgl1978

Here's my video today of the new viewliner diner headed south on silver meteor. Also on the train are 2 CSX cars.

https://youtu.be/_eJ0qv9moek


----------



## Maglev

mgl1978 said:


> Here's my video today of the new viewliner diner headed south on silver meteor. Also on the train are 2 CSX cars.
> 
> https://youtu.be/_eJ0qv9moek


I get a message that says, "Sorry, that video is Private."


----------



## Acela150

No longer private.


----------



## Maglev

Wow, that diner is shiny!


----------



## Devil's Advocate

mgl1978 said:


> Here's my video today of the new viewliner diner headed south on silver meteor. Also on the train are 2 CSX cars.


 Just as an FYI, pasting a URL using this format...



Code:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eJ0qv9moek

Provides a playable inline video like this...


----------



## Palmetto

The CSX business cars must have been added in Washington. I've seen video of this train east of DC and they weren't trailing up there.


----------



## OBS

They were added last night in Was......


----------



## jis

I wonder how long it will take for it to enter into service.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> I wonder how long it will take for it to enter into service.


Not in time for your points run.


----------



## tommylicious

She's a beauty! Just really hope Amtrak enable good food to actually be made and served on it.


----------



## neroden

I will bet Amtrak is trying to get as many of these as possible in service before the Thanksgiving rush, the busiest weekend of the year for Amtrak. Even a couple would help alleviate the crunch. I know Amtrak attempts to basically get every possible piece of rolling stock in service, nothing in the shops, for that weekend. If they can get 3 diners onto the LSL, they can use the Amfleet II cafes currently used on the LSL to supplement other (shorter-distance) trains. Same if they can cram 2 into service on the Cardinal. Adding 4 back to the Silver Star for the weekend might be appropriate to avoid overloading the cafe.

Of course there's the problem of "training", but perhaps there was enough training on #8400 and on the Viewliner II baggage cars to allow for a quick deployment on at least some routes?

On Track On Line believes there are only 11 active heritage diners on the roster, plus #8400. That's very strained.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

mgl1978 said:


> Here's my video today of the new viewliner diner headed south on silver meteor. Also on the train are 2 CSX cars.
> 
> https://youtu.be/_eJ0qv9moek


So, only the last Viewliner in that consist, is the new Viewliner II Diner?


----------



## CCC1007

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Here's my video today of the new viewliner diner headed south on silver meteor. Also on the train are 2 CSX cars.


Yep


----------



## AmtrakLKL

neroden said:


> I will bet Amtrak is trying to get as many of these as possible in service before the Thanksgiving rush, the busiest weekend of the year for Amtrak. Even a couple would help alleviate the crunch. I know Amtrak attempts to basically get every possible piece of rolling stock in service, nothing in the shops, for that weekend. If they can get 3 diners onto the LSL, they can use the Amfleet II cafes currently used on the LSL to supplement other (shorter-distance) trains. Same if they can cram 2 into service on the Cardinal. Adding 4 back to the Silver Star for the weekend might be appropriate to avoid overloading the cafe.
> 
> Of course there's the problem of "training", but perhaps there was enough training on #8400 and on the Viewliner II baggage cars to allow for a quick deployment on at least some routes?
> 
> On Track On Line believes there are only 11 active heritage diners on the roster, plus #8400. That's very strained.


Amtrak is more concerned with getting revenue cars on the road that can be filled with fares. While do you earn revenue selling food, food service cars are considered non-revenue. I haven't heard anything one way or the other, but I personally doubt this one car will be in service by Thanksgiving.


----------



## PVD

All hands on deck for Thanksgiving. Not sure how it is elsewhere, but in the past they have run some "extras" with borrowed cars and no food service on the NEC.


----------



## StriderGDM

I'd be shocked if any of the Viewdiners, including Annapolis are in service by Thanksgiving.


----------



## daybeers

PVD said:


> All hands on deck for Thanksgiving. Not sure how it is elsewhere, but in the past they have run some "extras" with borrowed cars and no food service on the NEC.


Yup, they do that every year. If you try to make a reservation on the NEC around Thanksgiving, some trains are numbered 1xxx, which usually means they use borrowed cars because of the very high demand.


----------



## TiBike

It took more than a year of "training" for Amtrak employees to figure out how to use a bike rack. A new dining car is good for five or ten years of head (or whatever) scratching.


----------



## tommylicious

TiBike said:


> It took more than a year of "training" for Amtrak employees to figure out how to use a bike rack. A new dining car is good for five or ten years of head (or whatever) scratching.



HAHAHAHA!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## neroden

Amtrak can and does sell seats in (non-operating) cafe cars over Thanksgiving. Getting the dining cars in service would, as I said, free up cafe cars from the LSL and Cardinal to be used for this purpose.


----------



## MikefromCrete

I don't see Amtrak rushing these dining cars (or even one car) into revenue service within the next 20 days. Remember how long it took them to get the baggage cars running,


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

StriderGDM said:


> I'd be shocked if any of the Viewdiners, including Annapolis are in service by Thanksgiving.


2019 ?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Actually, it didn't take a year of "training" for employees to figure out how to use the bike racks. It took that long for the cars to receive and install the agreed upon components necessary to fulfill the requirements. This shouldn't be a surprise since we've covered it before and it was noted that Amtrak accepted the cars with defects to get then into service.

The training aspect went quite quick.

If it makes you feel better, there will be no training on the new cars and no tables. Everyone will stand in an open area and chow down. This is so you can "rush" them in service.

Hang on.


----------



## Palmetto

Hmm, sounds like a New Haven Line bar car. ^_^


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Thirdrail7--

Did I read your post (#3385) correctly? There will be no tables in the Viewliner II café cars?

I tried to find photos but found all the other types of cars but not the café car (no wonder they don't want to show photos, if there are no tables).

If I read this correctly, that makes no sense whatsoever--what passenger would spend an exorbitant amount of money for awful food to stand around on a moving train eating? (And those of us who trip over our own sneakers on solid ground certainly won't be going to the café car.  )

Plus, where would the crew be able to sit and take up a couple of tables to relax and do their paperwork? :giggle:


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Mystic River Dragon said:


> If I read this correctly, that makes no sense whatsoever--what passenger would spend an exorbitant amount of money for awful food to stand around on a moving train eating? (And those of us who trip over our own sneakers on solid ground certainly won't be going to the café car.  )


Isn't that what they need to do today? The tables are taken up by non-eating coach passengers looking for a nicer seat, leaving passenger buying food to either stand or return back to coach.


----------



## Bob Dylan

He was being sarcastic Patty!

And there's no Viewliner Cafe Cars, only long promised Diners!


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Oh--I forgot there was never a mention of new Viewliner café cars--how embarrassing :blush: . Thanks for clearing that up, Jim!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Thirdrail7--
> 
> Did I read your post (#3385) correctly? There will be no tables in the Viewliner II café cars?
> 
> I tried to find photos but found all the other types of cars but not the café car (no wonder they don't want to show photos, if there are no tables).
> 
> If I read this correctly, that makes no sense whatsoever--what passenger would spend an exorbitant amount of money for awful food to stand around on a moving train eating? (And those of us who trip over our own sneakers on solid ground certainly won't be going to the café car.  )
> 
> Plus, where would the crew be able to sit and take up a couple of tables to relax and do their paperwork? :giggle:


You can see the tables in the new diner in the video.
I'm guessing TR7 was sitting at one of them when he made his post - j/k.


----------



## jis

Oh man! We really need a sarcasm emoticon since people miss it so often


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Oh man! We really need a sarcasm emoticon since people miss it so often


So true


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh--I forgot there was never a mention of new Viewliner café cars--how embarrassing :blush: . Thanks for clearing that up, Jim!


After 170 pages, I am left totally unsure as to what is true and what is not.


----------



## TiBike

"Training" was a quote from another's post. I didn't mean it literally. But it did take more than a year from the delivery of the first cars (and nearly a year from the last) to put something as simple as a bike rack into service. And I'm not limiting "employees" to onboard staff -- as an organisation, Amtrak does not operate in a coordinated, mission focused manner. What I get from the inspector general's reports (particularly regarding V2s and station signage) is that everyone is in charge of their little piece of turf, and projects bounce from one patch to another without anyone taking overall responsibility.

When the first baggage cars were delivered, there was apparently a long process of reengineering them so that the baggage shelves were up to spec. That indicates to me that there was little or no coordination between people managing construction (or not), the people who maintain equipment and the people who operate it. Maybe that's been fixed. But if it hasn't, then the maintenance and operations people are getting their first look at the latest design and it will be no surprise if they find surprises.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Actually, it didn't take a year of "training" for employees to figure out how to use the bike racks. It took that long for the cars to receive and install the agreed upon components necessary to fulfill the requirements. This shouldn't be a surprise since we've covered it before and it was noted that Amtrak accepted the cars with defects to get then into service.
> 
> The training aspect went quite quick.


----------



## Triley

neroden said:


> Amtrak can and does sell seats in (non-operating) cafe cars over Thanksgiving. Getting the dining cars in service would, as I said, free up cafe cars from the LSL and Cardinal to be used for this purpose.


They don't sell seats in non-revenue cafe cars. They're just that, non-revenue. Back when there was a surplus of cafe cars they'd put an extra on got employees to deadhead on, so they're not trying to take revenue seats from paying passengers.


----------



## A Voice

Triley said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak can and does sell seats in (non-operating) cafe cars over Thanksgiving. Getting the dining cars in service would, as I said, free up cafe cars from the LSL and Cardinal to be used for this purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't sell seats in non-revenue cafe cars. They're just that, non-revenue. Back when there was a surplus of cafe cars they'd put an extra on got employees to deadhead on, so they're not trying to take revenue seats from paying passengers.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are no cafe cars used on the _Lake Shore Limited_ anyway. That train currently runs with two Amfleet II lounge cars, with the "diner-lite" rebuild, and one taking the place of the dining car.

I "think" the Cardinal also regularly uses an Amfleet Ii lounge, though I welcome corrections.


----------



## PVD

I thought a split club/cafe was added instead of the A2 lounge coming from Boston so they could sell the B/C now that the train is back to being joined at Albany.


----------



## A Voice

PVD said:


> I thought a split club/cafe was added instead of the A2 lounge coming from Boston so they could sell the B/C now that the train is back to being joined at Albany.


Hmm, I'd forgotten about business class from Boston. Not sure about that one. But I know that a second Amfleet Ii lounge was added when the diner was removed.


----------



## Thirdrail7

A Voice said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought a split club/cafe was added instead of the A2 lounge coming from Boston so they could sell the B/C now that the train is back to being joined at Albany.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, I'd forgotten about business class from Boston. Not sure about that one. But I know that a second Amfleet Ii lounge was added when the diner was removed.
Click to expand...

The second AMII lounge does not operate now that the shuttle is canceled. The split club from BOS acts as the second lounge.



Triley said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak can and does sell seats in (non-operating) cafe cars over Thanksgiving. Getting the dining cars in service would, as I said, free up cafe cars from the LSL and Cardinal to be used for this purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't sell seats in non-revenue cafe cars. They're just that, non-revenue. Back when there was a surplus of cafe cars they'd put an extra on got employees to deadhead on, so they're not trying to take revenue seats from paying passengers.
Click to expand...

Table cars are often pressed into service during peak periods and sold as revenue seats. However, the cafe care tables remain non revenue.



TiBike said:


> "Training" was a quote from another's post. I didn't mean it literally. But it did take more than a year from the delivery of the first cars (and nearly a year from the last) to put something as simple as a bike rack into service. And I'm not limiting "employees" to onboard staff -- as an organisation, Amtrak does not operate in a coordinated, mission focused manner. What I get from the inspector general's reports (particularly regarding V2s and station signage) is that everyone is in charge of their little piece of turf, and projects bounce from one patch to another without anyone taking overall responsibility.
> 
> When the first baggage cars were delivered, there was apparently a long process of reengineering them so that the baggage shelves were up to spec. That indicates to me that there was little or no coordination between people managing construction (or not), the people who maintain equipment and the people who operate it. Maybe that's been fixed. But if it hasn't, then the maintenance and operations people are getting their first look at the latest design and it will be no surprise if they find surprises.
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it didn't take a year of "training" for employees to figure out how to use the bike racks. It took that long for the cars to receive and install the agreed upon components necessary to fulfill the requirements. This shouldn't be a surprise since we've covered it before and it was noted that Amtrak accepted the cars with defects to get then into service.
> 
> The training aspect went quite quick.
Click to expand...


Sure...and you're probably right about whatever happens to come out this time versus what we saw last time. You're probably also correct in saying there are problems with oversight, management, last minute changes and fiefdoms. Heck, even I have made recommendations for modifications on behalf of this board.

A perfect example is the lack of tables to expedite the delivery. However, when you're handed lemons, you make lemonade. Since the food that is being provided is no longer "sit down" restaurant quality food, instead of raising the bar on the food, we'll make it look better in comparison. It is taking the "bistro" concept to the next level. You'll order your food to go and mingle with your fellow passengers.

I'm forward thinking. This answers a few problems like crews congregating in the dining cars. It also raises the amenities and level of service because without tables, it helps out with the whole Are Dining Cars Open During Non-Meal Hours? thread.

Soon, the answer will be yes and boy are you passengers in for a throwback, good time. Who remembers the piano/bar car that was assigned to the Montrealer? Well, that isn't coming back, but when the lights go down and the last meal is served, the disco ball comes out! That's right, you'll shake your money maker to the disco ball and moonlight through the viewliner windows. Additionally, those low energy L.E.D lights put on a heck of a light show. Talk about maximizing space. Imagine sitting at a grade crossing, watching that new LDSL dining/dancing car pass at restricted speed as it follows yet another freight. I'm sure the locals will watch the light show and say "well, that just looks like fun. Let's book a trip."

Now, there is a slight training problem with deploying the disco ball and members along the Cardinal actually said the preferred Line Dancing. Additionally, strobe light warnings have to etched into the F.R.A approved glazing as well as any the grade crossings the train will traverse. The D.O.T's are dragging their feet which has added to delays. It may take time as TiBike mentioned to coordinate all of this stuff.

You're welcome!

One more thing...to save more time. the sleeping cars may emerge without doors on the sleeping cars....exterior doors. 1/3 of them were completed when someone finally realized the only way in was from an adjacent car. The exterior doors were omitted to solve the problem of ice and snow build up around the doors. If we get rid of the doors, that's one less area for it to build, right? Right?

This story is now on the internet...therefore, it must be as true as anything else in this tread...right?  :hi:


----------



## Bob Dylan

As the Prez likes to say, "Come on Man! "

Sarcasm right on point ThirdRail!


----------



## Steve4031

Try dancing at restricted speed as the the train switches onto the other track to overtake the freight. And then as it accelerates and then slows to cross back over. Brings new possibilities to twerking.


----------



## me_little_me

Thirdrail7 said:


> One more thing...to save more time. the sleeping cars may emerge without doors on the sleeping cars....exterior doors. 1/3 of them were completed when someone finally realized the only way in was from an adjacent car. The exterior doors were omitted to solve the problem of ice and snow build up around the doors. If we get rid of the doors, that's one less area for it to build, right? Right?
> 
> This story is now on the internet...therefore, it must be as true as anything else in this tread...right?  :hi:


Did you forget to mention about eliminating the hallway doors? I understand that hallways will have cots for the roometteless sleeper service and sleeper passengers in rooms can use the ladders to climb in/out of windows. Much faster departures as there are no waiting on line to get off at stations. You simply lower your ladder attached to the window frame, throw out your mattress and luggage then jump. The SCA puts the mattress back and passengers climb in from the new higher level ADA compliant platforms.


----------



## PaulM

Lucy strikes again!


----------



## TiBike

You win the thread, good sir 



Thirdrail7 said:


> This story is now on the internet...therefore, it must be as true as anything else in this tread...right?  :hi:


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Bob Dylan said:


> Sarcasm right on point ThirdRail!


Yep, even I got the sarcasm this time! 



TiBike said:


> You win the thread, good sir
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is now on the internet...therefore, it must be as true as anything else in this tread...right?  :hi:
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree with TiBike--I'm especially getting a chuckle out of imagining people disco dancing and line dancing on the train! :giggle:


----------



## A Voice

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sarcasm right on point ThirdRail!
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, even I got the sarcasm this time!
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> You win the thread, good sir
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is now on the internet...therefore, it must be as true as anything else in this tread...right?  :hi:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely agree with TiBike--I'm especially getting a chuckle out of imagining people disco dancing and line dancing on the train! :giggle:
Click to expand...

Oh, come on - how is that unusual? We've all seen people dancing their way down the aisle of a moving train. Usually on CSX trackage..........


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

A Voice said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sarcasm right on point ThirdRail!
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, even I got the sarcasm this time!
> 
> 
> 
> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> You win the thread, good sir
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is now on the internet...therefore, it must be as true as anything else in this tread...right?  :hi:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely agree with TiBike--I'm especially getting a chuckle out of imagining people disco dancing and line dancing on the train! :giggle:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, come on - how is that unusual? We've all seen people dancing their way down the aisle of a moving train. Usually on CSX trackage..........
Click to expand...

Well, that's true--I've danced down them myself, a few times--but I wouldn't say it was graceful or coordinated!


----------



## PVD

Anyone remember the Olympic Airlines commercials? "Please, no dancing in the aisles"


----------



## Steve4031

The CSX shuffle. Performed to soul train by Mfsb. Best of the philly sound.


----------



## neroden

Triley said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak can and does sell seats in (non-operating) cafe cars over Thanksgiving. Getting the dining cars in service would, as I said, free up cafe cars from the LSL and Cardinal to be used for this purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> They don't sell seats in non-revenue cafe cars.
Click to expand...

*Cough* I've been on an Empire Service train where every single seat was filled and additional passengers were being seated in the cafe car. I have been on an LSL where every single seat was filled and they had attached an extra cafe/lounge and started putting the additional passengers *there*. (In both cases they were transferred to other seats once some passengers detrained and the train became less crowded.)
So yes, in fact, on the ultra-busy holiday weekends, Amtrak *does* effectively sell seats in non-revenue cafe cars. I believe they call it "overbooking", but they won't overbook past the cafe car capacity. This is a completely sensible way to maximize ridership and revenue given a shortage of coaches.



A Voice said:


> Actually, there are no cafe cars used on the _Lake Shore Limited_ anyway. That train currently runs with two Amfleet II lounge cars, with the "diner-lite" rebuild, and one taking the place of the dining car.


Amfleet II lounges are a type of cafe car, according to the definition of cafe car I was using. I will happily change my statement to "Amtrak can and does sell seats in lounge cars over Thanksgiving", if you prefer.

When they're selling tickets to people and seating them in the lounge car -- even if it's only for part of their trip -- then as far as I'm concerned they're using the lounge car for extra revenue capacity.


----------



## PVD

Even without overbooking, some "reserved" trains can get overboarded because various forms of commuter pass holders are not counted in the reservation count. Plus, there are always deadheading employees and non rev pass holders.


----------



## jis

The employees and non rev pass holders are not supposed to occupy revenue seats while revenue paying passengers are left seatless.


----------



## PVD

Which is one of the ways people end up sitting in the lounge. Crew packs and paperwork aren't supposed to occupy more than one table on any train, that isn't widely followed either


----------



## neroden

There are no commuter passes on Empire Service or LSL west of Albany to my knowledge. Really, this was genuine and deliberate booking beyond the number of coach seats available, and they seated people in the cafe car from Utica to Schenectady (which was the most crowded segment both times...)


----------



## PVD

I think it's no multi ride at all for the LSL. Empires West of Albany. And to support your premise, I have seen it oversold Eastbound boarding in Depew. Toast by Syracuse. Have also been on a sold out Northbound Silver where a sleeper was bad ordered with no added coach, I was pointing out that trains can be over full without being overbooked, but was not trying to say they don't occasionally do that also.


----------



## CraigDK

For what its worth, in the NARP's latest hotline has section on the new diner and the remaining VII order. According to them, the evaluation of 68001 apparently will be for an extended time and the next diners are expected after the new year.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Too lazy to check, how many months, years late?


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

jis said:


> The employees and non rev pass holders are not supposed to occupy revenue seats while revenue paying passengers are left seatless.


And how exactly do you identify these people, to ask them to give up their seat to you? The few times over the years that I was on an over-filled Amtrak train, and had to stand, the conductor showed no interest at all in finding standing passengers a seat (to their side, the conductors seemed overwhelmed at that time).


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> The employees and non rev pass holders are not supposed to occupy revenue seats while revenue paying passengers are left seatless.
> 
> 
> 
> And how exactly do you identify these people, to ask them to give up their seat to you? The few times over the years that I was on an over-filled Amtrak train, and had to stand, the conductor showed no interest at all in finding standing passengers a seat (to their side, the conductors seemed overwhelmed at that time).
Click to expand...

When I was on an overbooked_* Meteor*_ last year and had to step down to Coach from Washington to Richmond, the AC and Car Attendant quickly flushed out several non-rev CSX employees and sent them to the lounge; they were already flagged on the load sheet. They were still short on seats after that, and I volunteered to head to the lounge, as I figured the couple hour plus ride would be more interesting there than in a crammed Coach; it was.


----------



## hermit

Amtrak’s long-awaited CAF-built Viewliner II Dining Cars and Sleepers are one step closer to seeing revenue service. The first diner – #68001, the “Annapolis” – shipped from CAF’s Elmira, N.Y., plant on Tuesday and was moved to Hialeah, Fla., on the southbound Meteor the following day. Given the many issues brought up on previous inspections of the new design, Amtrak plans to take an extended period of time to test the car and be sure CAF has resolved any lingering issues. However, Amtrak management tells NARP they’re confident the problems are behind them. Sometime after the first of the year CAF will begin rolling out cars at a rate of two or three per month, Amtrak tells us, with all 25 diners delivered in the first half of 2017. The new Viewliner sleepers are next and Amtrak expects to get a final schedule for the production rollout of these cars within days.


----------



## George K

Can someone elaborate what the "many issues" were on the test diner?


----------



## Bob Dylan

".. all 25 Diners delivered in the first half of 2017. The new Viewliners sleepers are next.. "

Well isn't that Special?!!! If we're lucky well actually see these cars in our lifetimes!


----------



## Thirdrail7

TiBike said:


> You win the thread, good sir
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is now on the internet...therefore, it must be as true as anything else in this tread...right?  :hi:
Click to expand...


Thank you. I was hoping you would get a laugh out of this. However, the joke is ultimately on everyone else. We will defer to the wise words of




I'm sure it will be exhibit "B" in the future! :giggle:


----------



## neroden

Well, I suppose it's good to check the new dining car over *thoroughly*, given the previous problems, but here's hoping everything checks out fine and they can cut the testing period short. Because if everything is working fine, one month should be enough to be sure that everything is working fine.

The baggage cars came out in a giant lump, not a few at a time. Frankly I don't believe "two or three a month", I think we'll see something much more irregular than that.


----------



## sechs

Thirdrail7 said:


> This hardly seems mathematically feasible. If you roll out 3 per month, in 6 months you'll have 18 diners by the end of June. That is seven short and assumes that January is included....which I highly doubt.


I presume that they already have several partially finished cars that need to be reworked. These will come out much quicker.


----------



## Palmland

Good for Amtrak for finally disclosing the status of the new car orders. Wonder if this is an indication that Amtrak will be more transparent in the future about these type of issues under their new leadership.


----------



## StriderGDM

Yeah, the 2-3 a month for 6 months definitely doesn't add up to 25. But I'll take them.

But, I think we're close to half a year or longer away from the LSL getting its diners back because my guess is the first batch of diners will replace the existing Heritage diners first.

So... need the bulk of the upcoming order for that.

I'm guessing my chances of a new diner on the Crescent in February to be below 50% at this rate.


----------



## CraigDK

StriderGDM said:


> But, I think we're close to half a year or longer away from the LSL getting its diners back because my guess is the first batch of diners will replace the existing Heritage diners first.


Possibly, I suspect the failure rate of the Heritage diners and the delivery rate of the Viewliners will determine how it actually plays out.


----------



## neroden

There are only 8 single-level diners in the regular daily service at the moment: Silver Meteor and Crescent. (Yuck.) There's one Viewliner diner in service, #8400, so they have to bring out 7 in order to replace the existing service fleet (most of the time, apart from maintenance cycles). Although we were told more than once that the LSL would be the first recipient of the new dining cars, I'm afraid they might replace the Meteor's dining cars first due to the location of Hialeah. :-(

Most likely some Heritage diners will be put into protect service initially until Viewliners are covering the full load (Meteor, Crescent, LSL, and perhaps Star and Cardinal as well). There are apparently 11 Heritage diners active as of early September. 3 are ex-Northern Pacific, 3 are ex-CBQ, 1 is ex-BN... there's 1 ex-SP, 2 ex-NYC, 1 ex-Pennsy (#7143, with a really crazy history of multiple conversions). I suppose they're probably be retired as their "need new inspections" (of whatever sort) dates come up, which I don't know the order of, but if they have to renew some of them and keep them active, I'm guessing it won't be the NYC diners which are from *1948*. (I'm surprised they've been kept going this long, and I'm also surprised that the many-times-converted Pennsy car is still going.) There seems to be a preference for the BN/NP/CBQ fleet (which was all pretty similar as those companies were quite incestuous).

I will say that if they manage to get #68000 and #68001 in service along with #8400 and they manage to get Chicago and New York trained to maintain the new cars, as well as whatever "training" is necessary for conductors and engineers, they could equip the LSL. That's the only one they could equip with that few cars. So if the two "prototypes" are finished and then there's a long delay before #68002 comes out, there is a possibility of the LSL seeing the Viewliner IIs and everyone else waiting for the mass production.

The LSL used to get half its diner patronage from coach, IIRC, the highest of all the trains with dining cars. Not having a proper dining car on the LSL is throwing away revenue. I hope they did it so that Chicago didn't have to maintain Heritage dining cars at all any more, which is a reasonable reason which might outweigh the thrown-away revenue. But it would make sense to restore service to the LSL before replacing the cars on the Meteor. (On the other hand, making it so that New Orleans doesn't have to maintain Heritage cars would *also* be a reasonable reason, so replacing the dining car on the Crescent first might make sense...)


----------



## Elack801

Would anyone be able to identify the shell in the foreground? I took these pictures a week before the 68001 was released in Elmira NY.


----------



## Seaboard92

That's a sleeper you saw there.


----------



## Elack801

Well with a guess there appeared to be 15 or so of those shells stored on the staging tracks inside the complex.


----------



## PerRock

The next car behind it however isn't a sleeper, but a diner.

peter


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

The Bag-Dorms will be last, correct?


----------



## MARC Rider

PVD said:


> Which is one of the ways people end up sitting in the lounge. Crew packs and paperwork aren't supposed to occupy more than one table on any train, that isn't widely followed either


Tell me about it. There were 2 tables "reserved for crew" this morning, and the car was a split cafe/club car with half the number of tables of the regular cafe car. Fortunately, the train was pretty empty, so no one was denied a seat.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Elack801 said:


> Would anyone be able to identify the shell in the foreground? I took these pictures a week before the 68001 was released in Elmira NY.


OK, I was never very good at these kinds of puzzles in the Highlights magazine. What's different between the first picture and the second?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Elack801 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would anyone be able to identify the shell in the foreground? I took these pictures a week before the 68001 was released in Elmira NY.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I was never very good at these kinds of puzzles in the Highlights magazine. What's different between the first picture and the second?
Click to expand...

Based on the file names it looks like the same picture was uploaded twice.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

And looks like my phone double posted. Ugh


----------



## PRR 60

AmtrakBlue said:


> And looks like my phone double posted. Ugh


Removed the duplicate post.


----------



## A Voice

AmtrakBlue said:


> And looks like my phone double posted. Ugh


There is some sort of irony in your double post about a double posted picture.


----------



## railbuck

A Voice said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> And looks like my phone double posted. Ugh
> 
> 
> 
> There is some sort of irony in your double post about a double posted picture.
Click to expand...

The fact that it's in the Viewliner II thread just makes it twice as funny.


----------



## Thirdrail7

For those that can, it may be worthwhile to take a peek at 98(14). I believe there's a joyride afoot.


----------



## Palmetto

Ooooh, the new Prez [of Amtrak]?


----------



## KnightRail

The capital of Maryland should be along for the ride from The 3-0-5 to the Big Apple


----------



## CraigDK

As long as it is a joy ride and not a return to sender!


----------



## tommylicious

Hopefully for deployment to the LSL



KnightRail said:


> The capital of Maryland should be along for the ride from The 3-0-5 to the Big Apple


----------



## AmtrakLKL

CraigDK said:


> As long as it is a joy ride and not a return to sender!


It is scheduled for return to sender (Hialeah) in a few days.



tommylicious said:


> Hopefully for deployment to the LSL


No.

Some additional cars will join the joyride at JAX this afternoon.


----------



## pennyk

I just saw it pass through Orlando.


----------



## Andrew

Amtrak's CAF baggage cars look pretty cool.

I think it would be awesome to see CAF get the amfleet 2 replacement contract at some point in the future--and model them as the baggage cars are with seats in them.


----------



## CCC1007

Andrew said:


> Amtrak's CAF baggage cars look pretty cool.
> 
> I think it would be awesome to see CAF get the amfleet 2 replacement contract at some point in the future--and model them as the baggage cars are with seats in them.


Not likely with their current status.


----------



## CraigDK

AmtrakLKL said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as it is a joy ride and not a return to sender!
> 
> 
> 
> It is scheduled for return to sender (Hialeah) in a few days.
> 
> 
> 
> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully for deployment to the LSL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No.
> 
> Some additional cars will join the joyride at JAX this afternoon.
Click to expand...

When I said return to sender, I was referring to it going back to CAF! That would have been a cause for concern, going back to Hialeah is a good sign.


----------



## Steve4031

Andrew said:


> Amtrak's CAF baggage cars look pretty cool.
> 
> I think it would be awesome to see CAF get the amfleet 2 replacement contract at some point in the future--and model them as the baggage cars are with seats in them.


I think I would prefer more windows then are currently in the baggage car.. But I wouldn't mind a viewliner coach wit windows.


----------



## Acela150

Andrew said:


> Amtrak's CAF baggage cars look pretty cool.
> 
> I think it would be awesome to see CAF get the amfleet 2 replacement contract at some point in the future--and model them as the baggage cars are with seats in them.


So you're ok with passenger cars that are years behind schedule??? I'm not. You're a first....


----------



## StriderGDM

Well, let's start with we don't know why the cars are behind and if the same reason would impact coach cars.

And we have no real evidence that any other builder would do any better. CAF at least has a production line going.

I actually think the bigger problem would be that any single-level fleet order would probably want 100-125 cars a year, and I'm not sure CAF is equipped for that level of production quantity.


----------



## west point

StriderGDM said:


> Well, let's start with we don't know why the cars are behind and if the same reason would impact coach cars.
> 
> And we have no real evidence that any other builder would do any better. CAF at least has a production line going.
> 
> I actually think the bigger problem would be that any single-level fleet order would probably want 100-125 cars a year, and I'm not sure CAF is equipped for that level of production quantity.


Good points. There has been many speculations why the order is so late but no concrete info. CAF being able to build 100 - 125 cars per year does appear very unlikely. Isn't there other production orders going on at CAF as well ?


----------



## MikefromCrete

west point said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, let's start with we don't know why the cars are behind and if the same reason would impact coach cars.
> 
> And we have no real evidence that any other builder would do any better. CAF at least has a production line going.
> 
> I actually think the bigger problem would be that any single-level fleet order would probably want 100-125 cars a year, and I'm not sure CAF is equipped for that level of production quantity.
> 
> 
> 
> Good points. There has been many speculations why the order is so late but no concrete info. CAF being able to build 100 - 125 cars per year does appear very unlikely. Isn't there other production orders going on at CAF as well ?
Click to expand...


They've been building streetcars for a number of cities, but the orders are small. I doubt if they could build 100-125 coaches in a year.


----------



## A Voice

west point said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, let's start with we don't know why the cars are behind and if the same reason would impact coach cars.
> 
> And we have no real evidence that any other builder would do any better. CAF at least has a production line going.
> 
> I actually think the bigger problem would be that any single-level fleet order would probably want 100-125 cars a year, and I'm not sure CAF is equipped for that level of production quantity.
> 
> 
> 
> Good points. There has been many speculations why the order is so late but no concrete info. CAF being able to build 100 - 125 cars per year does appear very unlikely. Isn't there other production orders going on at CAF as well ?
Click to expand...




MikefromCrete said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, let's start with we don't know why the cars are behind and if the same reason would impact coach cars.
> 
> And we have no real evidence that any other builder would do any better. CAF at least has a production line going.
> 
> I actually think the bigger problem would be that any single-level fleet order would probably want 100-125 cars a year, and I'm not sure CAF is equipped for that level of production quantity.
> 
> 
> 
> Good points. There has been many speculations why the order is so late but no concrete info. CAF being able to build 100 - 125 cars per year does appear very unlikely. Isn't there other production orders going on at CAF as well ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They've been building streetcars for a number of cities, but the orders are small. I doubt if they could build 100-125 coaches in a year.
Click to expand...

Direct one-to-one replacements (Amtrak really needs more than that, of course) for the Amfleet II coaches and lounges is only 150 cars; No real reason they have to all be delivered the same year (even Budd didn't do that in 1982-83). I'd agree that with the production line already open, now would be the best time for a follow-on contract for more cars.


----------



## StriderGDM

While you're right about the Amfleet II cars, the stated Amtrak goal in one of their plans is to replace the entire fleet of Amfleet Is and IIs. That's 650 cars. Plus ideally another 100-150 more (at least) in expansion. And the goal was to do so at a rate of about 100+ a year. Hence my numbers.

Now, since Amtrak does own the plans to the Viewliner design, they in theory could do what is rarely done these days by the government and let out contracts to two vendors. This might actually create some cost competition and speed things up.


----------



## west point

StriderGDM said:


> While you're right about the Amfleet II cars, the stated Amtrak goal in one of their plans is to replace the entire fleet of Amfleet Is and IIs. That's 650 cars. Plus ideally another 100-150 more (at least) in expansion. And the goal was to do so at a rate of about 100+ a year. Hence my numbers.
> 
> Now, since Amtrak does own the plans to the Viewliner design, they in theory could do what is rarely done these days by the government and let out contracts to two vendors. This might actually create some cost competition and speed things up.


If you study the retirement schedule you will find that Amfleet retirements lag replacements by many cars. Amtrak may in future order even more single and bi-level cars than retirements. And that does not count the extra seats in the Acela-2s


----------



## Andrew

I thought that Amtrak wanted to replace Amfleet 2 separately and before Amfleet 1.

Which companies would be able to manufacture over 100 coaches a year?


----------



## west point

Andrew said:


> I thought that Amtrak wanted to replace Amfleet 2 separately and before Amfleet 1.
> 
> That is correct the -2s have about 40% more mileage than the -1s.
> 
> Which companies would be able to manufacture over 100 coaches a year?


Maybe Siemens can build 100 + with the V-2 blueprints but even that is questionable.


----------



## PVD

Forget the V2 idea. The starting point for new single level equipment will be a much more modern design. The NGEC designs have a number of problems that they seem to be trying to hide, but the VL design is 30 years old, things like roof line package HVAC and drastically improved power distribution, overhead compartment design and much more are to be expected. The ability to re purpose a car more easily (like corridor to LD to BC) is highly likely. I really like the as a sleeper or diner, but I'm not sure that added height makes sense for a coach. All that adds is weight, and air volume for the HVAC to handle.


----------



## jis

I cannot understand the AU fascination with the insistence on an outdated V2 design instead of just stating the requirements in the RFP and asking the manufacturer to provide the best modern design they can, like everyone else does. Sort of like was done with the Acela II RFP. Put in a stipulation retaining the non-exclusive ability to use the design for further orders in the future. All reputable large systems in the world do that.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Sure would be nice to see the second level of windows continued in a coach, but no idea how that would accomodate luggage racks. Guess we'll never see an entire train with the same basic shape.


----------



## Ryan

We need the AU engineering squad to design us a locomotive (dual mode, of course) that fits in a Viewliner shell.


----------



## TylerP42

Ryan said:


> We need the AU engineering squad to design us a locomotive (dual mode, of course) that fits in a Viewliner shell.


You made me laugh loudly at 1 AM...

Don't forget Acela-2's in a Viewliner Shell... need those double windows when you're going 150!


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> We need the AU engineering squad to design us a locomotive (dual mode, of course) that fits in a Viewliner shell.


And it must have the upper row windows to make the diesel engine and the electric switching gear inside feel nice.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

We've already endured thirty years of slow and ugly fluted boxcars and yet we we apparently can't wait to lock in another three or four decades of outdated 1980's designs? *shrug* I honestly have no idea why these cars are so popular. Must be something you need a sixth sense to understand.


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> I cannot understand the AU fascination with the insistence on an outdated V2 design instead of just stating the requirements in the RFP and asking the manufacturer to provide the best modern design they can, like everyone else does. Sort of like was done with the Acela II RFP. Put in a stipulation retaining the non-exclusive ability to use the design for further orders in the future. All reputable large systems in the world do that.


One chief advantage the Viewliner II does have is a currently open production line. Yes, there have been unreasonable delays that shouldn't have happened, but presumably with the problems ironed out a follow-on order (assuming CAF would touch it at this point...) for coaches and lounges shouldn't be so problematic. Further, an RFP and new design has to start largely from scratch; The Viewliner is an essentially completed model. Deliveries of new cars could, one would hope, begin much sooner and avoid even the possibility of Nippon-Sharyo level setbacks. But there are more reasons, below, not to arbitrarily or completely discard the Viewliner design.



Ryan said:


> We need the AU engineering squad to design us a locomotive (dual mode, of course) that fits in a Viewliner shell.


I once saw a mock-up (from General Motors - thus EMD) locomotive designed into an Amfleet body shell.



Brian Battuello said:


> Sure would be nice to see the second level of windows continued in a coach, but no idea how that would accomodate luggage racks. Guess we'll never see an entire train with the same basic shape.


Indeed, _aesthetics matter_. Since Amtrak's inception in 1971 the company has been having a contest with itself to see how many different types of cars can be included in one train consist. Top Prize goes to the early 80's Desert Wind with Heritage baggage and sleeper, Amfleet I dinette, Hi-level transition car, and Superliner coaches. Close runner up has to be the mid-90's Three Rivers with seven different car models on the train: Heritage baggage, Viewliner sleeper, Amfleet II coaches, Horizon dinette, Material Handling Cars, Express Boxcars, and Roadrailers. There's a reason you never saw either of these consists displayed in advertising or Amtrak passenger publications.

Yes, the Viewliner design has grown old waiting on funding for new cars and we do need new, modern designs to carry forward. However, there are compelling reasons to build more Viewliners in the interim; I don't think anyone is advocating that Amfleet I replacements for the corridor should be a Viewliner. We have an opportunity, though, that won't come again _for decades_ for matching train sets in the east that should not be so readily or arbitrarily dismissed just because the basic body shape is from the 80's.



Devil's Advocate said:


> We've already endured thirty years of slow and ugly fluted boxcars and yet we we apparently can't wait to lock in another three or four decades of outdated 1980's designs? *shrug* I honestly have no idea why these cars are so popular. Must be something you need a sixth sense to understand.


Huh? The boxcars have been gone for a long time now, and they were never fluted. What were you referring to?


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

A Voice said:


> We have an opportunity, though, that won't come again _for decades_ for matching train sets in the east that should not be so readily or arbitrarily dismissed just because the basic body shape is from the 80's.


Ohhhh.... matching train sets.


----------



## jis

I guess the difference of opinion may be on the relative importance of matching train sets. It is a nicety that is not essential for providing good service. IMHO good reliable service is way more important than matching train sets. I would happily forgo an outdated design even with a creaky production line open to get more modern design with more modern tried and tested workmanship if I can, and even better if I can get it at world competitive prices rather than from a special cobbled together production line with astronomical costs.


----------



## Palmetto

Matching trainsets were quite far from the norm pre-Amtrak. Some of us here would've gone bonkers to see them. It's probably true that only railfans would be pushing this concept. Passengers in general could give a hoot about the issue, as long as they get to where they're going in a comfortable manner.


----------



## A Voice

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have an opportunity, though, that won't come again _for decades_ for matching train sets in the east that should not be so readily or arbitrarily dismissed just because the basic body shape is from the 80's.
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhh.... matching train sets.
Click to expand...

The Simpsons dates from the 1980's and thus that character is an outdated design. You therefore shouldn't be using it to produce new message board comments.  



jis said:


> It is a nicety that is not essential for providing good service. IMHO good reliable service is way more important than matching train sets.


And I wouldn't disagree with that comment. Point is, however, that aesthetics and details do make a difference (paint schemes, car types, interior design and accommodations, etc.), arguably more than many people realize.

Amtrak apparently places some importance on this as well. Note that promotional materials have often shown matching sets of Superliners or Amfleet cars (often staged, since few real trains look like that).



Palmetto said:


> Matching trainsets were quite far from the norm pre-Amtrak. Some of us here would've gone bonkers to see them. It's probably true that only railfans would be pushing this concept. Passengers in general could give a hoot about the issue, as long as they get to where they're going in a comfortable manner.


Only railfans can have an appreciation for aesthetics and design?


----------



## west point

The lack of any information about the delays is puzzling. Maybe we need to find out if somehow there is a non disclosure clause embedded in the contract somewhere ?


----------



## jis

The current trend in the world seems to be to buy articulated train sets at least for short and medium distance corridor service, specially involving day trains. I can't see Amtrak going that route any time soon.

Many LD trains elsewhere are still individual cars hooked up together to form trains, and it is not unusual for them to be unmatched in color though often they are matched in car design, simply because of different operational characteristics of cars as in max speed, electrical compatibility, braking system compatibility etc. etc. In case of Amtrak those sorts of things are all standardized, so they can basically connect up whatever cars they have with appropriate types of accommodation into a train, except for the dichotomy between single level and bi-level.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

A Voice said:


> Only railfans can have an appreciation for aesthetics and design?


Paying customers rarely do.

While airline customers moan and groan about lack of seat space (seat width, leg room, etc), they will eagerly buy a ticket on an airline what gives them even less space, if the ticket was a $1 less.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only railfans can have an appreciation for aesthetics and design?
> 
> 
> 
> Paying customers rarely do.
> 
> While airline customers moan and groan about lack of seat space (seat width, leg room, etc), they will eagerly buy a ticket on an airline what gives them even less space, if the ticket was a $1 less.
Click to expand...

Moreover they will also happily get confused and try to get on a plane of another airline going in the opposite direction too. Some of their cluelessness is a sight to behold!


----------



## PVD

Most of the pros and cons of VL design and matching sets will mean nothing since the agreements for financing of any single level replacements will likely involve new RFP, and NGEC standards as a starting point. Did a trip on the Crescent last month, Northbound out of Atlanta had a P42, a Dash 8, a VL2 bag, VL sleepers, A1 BC, A2 coaches, VL prototype diner. The room was clean, food was pretty good, switched to an ACS-64 in WAS, got in 20 mins early. Nothing matched, think more than a couple of folks noticed? Even less actually cared. I like the VL sleepers, and the airiness of the VL diner was pleasant, but there is too much that needs to be changed for the design to go forward as it stands today.


----------



## Gulfwind2

Matching consists are meaningless if the equipment needs to be thawed out in the winters due to its lack of ruggedness.

While the airiness of the Viewliner design may work beautifully in a lounge car setting, I agree that a newer and more effective design would work best for a round of Amfleet II coach replacements. I would rate the best candidate as being a variant of the Siemens coaches which are being built for Brightline. While we have no way thus far of gauging their winter-proofing abilities, we do know that the cars are ADA-accessible, have lots of at-seat power outlets, and ample windows. Considering that most folks spend their entire trips with eyes glued to their electronics, a car with said features may ultimately be the way to go rather than a design which forgoes utilitarian necessities such as larger luggage in favor of the double row of windows.


----------



## PVD

We pretty much know what the baseline specs are, they have been published. The "cone of silence" seems to be dropping over some of the latest revisions, and the option is there for carrier specific or purpose specific modifications as necessary. That being said, weight vs structural requirements need to be reconciled, and as the years march on, there will be items that will need to be modernized. Fluorescent lighting has mostly given way to LED, USB charging and wireless are no longer considered wishlist items, to point out a few.


----------



## Seaboard92

The cars Siemens is building for Brightline is very similar to the cars they built for ÖBB Railjet trains so they should be good for winter operations. Considering that they can handle Austrian Alpine routes.


----------



## hastybob

While everyone was discussing the lack of uniform trainsets, etc; the 68001 sneaked out of Florida a couple of days ago on 98 headed to New York and today to Albany. Don't think it is heading back to CAF. Looks like a road test and maybe some publicity!


----------



## jis

It is apparently some sort of a group, possibly press, run or something. It comes off at Albany and returns to New York tomorrow at the rear of 234(17), then deadhes back to Miami by 97(17).


----------



## StriderGDM

Dang, I'm going to miss it at Albany then. :-(


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I cannot understand the AU fascination with the insistence on an outdated V2 design instead of just stating the requirements in the RFP and asking the manufacturer to provide the best modern design they can, like everyone else does. Sort of like was done with the Acela II RFP. Put in a stipulation retaining the non-exclusive ability to use the design for further orders in the future. All reputable large systems in the world do that.


I think everyone likes the exterior profile of the V2 and likes the second row of windows. As such, specifying those as requirements in the RFP is a reasonable thing to do, particularly for any lounge/cafe cars.


----------



## neroden

Palmetto said:


> Matching trainsets were quite far from the norm pre-Amtrak.


The exterior profiles were actually *highly* standardized throughout most of the 19th century. There are basically two periods:

-- The old curved roof, with open platforms on each end (sometimes only on one end)

-- The clerestory roof, with open platforms on each end (later, closed platforms)

These two profiles were practically uniform from one railroad to another.

This standardization only started going away with "streamliners" and the conversion of clerestory cars to air-conditioned cars, rounding off the clerestory roof.

It was very normal to have different paint schemes and cars of different lengths, but on the whole even a very mixed passenger train presented a highly uniform appearance due to the consistent profile. Throughout the 19th century.

With the exception of certain "special" trains, the next period (early 20th century) actually had pretty consistent car profiles too; this is the straight-side, rounded-top, fully-enclosed-vestibules period, with a profile which resulted from closing up the clerestories with rounded pieces. Still a lot of those running in private car service (far more than from the earlier two periods, which are typically only represented at museums, and often not even then). Even dome cars typically adhere to the same profile as this with the exception of the protruding dome.

(I'm sure the consistent profile had a lot to do with standard clearance plates.)

It's only after 1945 that we had stuff like the Santa Fe Hi-Levels and the Metroliners, which resulted in highly mismatched carriage profiles.


----------



## Seaboard92

There are some heavyweights that have rounded roof and clerestory style on them. If you look at the Dover Harbor one side is rounded and the other is clerestory.

As far as cars the profiles in the streamliner era are very similar but there are some distinctions too. Pullman Standard vs Budd fluting doesn't quite match up. Budd fluting continued on the roof.

And as far as domes there is a uniform dome height. But there are exceptions to the rule for instance the B&O has low profile domes. Some had flat Windows and not rounded. The three car builders also had different methods of designing the car.

And then there are three different types of domes as well. There are vista domes which generally seat 24 and have a better 360 degree view. These are what VIA operates. Then there are 3/4 domes which were half Budd and half PS cars only used by the Southern Pacific. And they had an atrium with a 18 foot tall ceiling. And one is in operation in Panama. The last dime is a full dome which is a dome Over the entire car body. It's more like a superliner as far as viewing. This is what IP operates on the Hoosier State.

My source: I work on these cars as PVs.


----------



## Thirdrail7

hastybob said:


> While everyone was discussing the lack of uniform trainsets, etc; the 68001 sneaked out of Florida a couple of days ago on 98 headed to New York and today to Albany. Don't think it is heading back to CAF. Looks like a road test and maybe some publicity!


How did it "sneak out" of Florida when it was mentioned in this thread the day before it left? Additionally, there was discussion in the chat room Sunday night about when it was going, when it was coming back, on what train and the next projected release.

Perhaps you should hang around more often.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

Seaboard92 said:


> There are some heavyweights that have rounded roof and clerestory style on them. If you look at the Dover Harbor one side is rounded and the other is clerestory.
> 
> As far as cars the profiles in the streamliner era are very similar but there are some distinctions too. Pullman Standard vs Budd fluting doesn't quite match up. Budd fluting continued on the roof.
> 
> And as far as domes there is a uniform dome height. But there are exceptions to the rule for instance the B&O has low profile domes. Some had flat Windows and not rounded. The three car builders also had different methods of designing the car.
> 
> And then there are three different types of domes as well. There are vista domes which generally seat 24 and have a better 360 degree view. These are what VIA operates. Then there are 3/4 domes which were half Budd and half PS cars only used by the Southern Pacific. And they had an atrium with a 18 foot tall ceiling. And one is in operation in Panama. The last dime is a full dome which is a dome Over the entire car body. It's more like a superliner as far as viewing. This is what IP operates on the Hoosier State.
> 
> My source: I work on these cars as PVs.


I always find Post War mixed Heavyweight/Streamlined consists to be most interesting and if I recall, some of the heavyweights (GM&O?) survived into the early days of Amtrak.

Is there an Espee 3/4 Dome still running somewhere? That is a neat car!


----------



## Brian Battuello

jis said:


> It is apparently some sort of a group, possibly press, run or something. It comes off at Albany and returns to New York tomorrow at the rear of 234(17), then deadhes back to Miami by 97(17).


Dang, if I wasn't still in my pajamas I might be able to catch it at Croton. If a few more leaves fell off, I'd be able to see it from my front porch.

And I didn't know that there was one Empire Service train (234) that can't be bothered to stop in Croton. Guess they have to save platform space for Metro-North commuters!


----------



## Palmetto

234 doesn't make Poughkeepsie either. A nice ride for those boarding at Rhinecliff!


----------



## PVD

237 is the Northbound equivalent. It also skips Yonkers, Croton and Poughkeepsie going back to Albany


----------



## Seaboard92

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Is there an Espee 3/4 Dome still running somewhere? That is a neat car!


There is one in current operation on the Panama Canal Railway down in Panama in regular service. Several others were preserved actually but those all need some work. And it's unlikely we will see that because of their odd construction.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there an Espee 3/4 Dome still running somewhere? That is a neat car!
> 
> 
> 
> There is one in current operation on the Panama Canal Railway down in Panama in regular service. Several others were preserved actually but those all need some work. And it's unlikely we will see that because of their odd construction.
Click to expand...

Seaboard, where are the preserved ones currently located, in case you have that info? Thanks.


----------



## Seaboard92

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OlympianHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there an Espee 3/4 Dome still running somewhere? That is a neat car!
> 
> 
> 
> There is one in current operation on the Panama Canal Railway down in Panama in regular service. Several others were preserved actually but those all need some work. And it's unlikely we will see that because of their odd construction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seaboard, where are the preserved ones currently located, in case you have that info? Thanks.
Click to expand...

SP 3602 is listed at Golden Gate Rail Museum but also listed for sale. But in poor condition. As of 2011SP 3603 operating on the Panama Canal Railroad train between Panama City and Colon once daily. It's in a classy Kansas City Southern Belle paint.

SP 3604 was last used on the Minnesota Zephyr in Stillwater. But has since been sold so I'll have to track it down. It was in operating shape.

SP 3605 is stored at Cannon City and Royal Gorge Railroad. Been in storage since 2005 due to them buying ex ATSF full domes. Stored in poor condition.

SP 3606 is at a shopping center near Rocklin, CA

SP 3600, 3601 both are scrapped.


----------



## pennyk

FYI, I saw the 8400 diner on today's 98 as it rolled through Orlando a few blocks from my home.


----------



## Agent

Seaboard92 said:


> SP 3604 was last used on the Minnesota Zephyr in Stillwater. But has since been sold so I'll have to track it down. It was in operating shape.


If I remember correctly, the _Minnesota Zephyr_ cars were bought by Iowa Pacific and moved to Colorado (as seen below).


----------



## Agent

This video posted today by YouTube user Monica Matos shows _Annapolis_ on train #234 heading toward Penn Station this morning.


----------



## bretton88

Agent said:


> This video posted today by YouTube user Monica Matos shows _Annapolis_ on train #234 heading toward Penn Station this morning.


Hopefully not being returned to the factory for more fixes.


----------



## CCC1007

bretton88 said:


> This video posted today by YouTube user Monica Matos shows _Annapolis_ on train #234 heading toward Penn Station this morning.


Southbound


----------



## jis

It is on its way to Hialeah today on 97.


----------



## Acela150

I've gotten into more then enough spats on Facebook with her about her videos.. She clearly is trespassing to get her video. There is no reason to trespass to get a photo or video..


----------



## Dutchrailnut

despite the fence being knocked down, she is clearly outside the fence line so get off your high horse.


----------



## Acela150

Someone who condones trespassing. Lovely.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Dutchrailnut said:


> despite the fence being knocked down, she is clearly outside the fence line so get off your high horse.


But how did she get into that particular position? By boat?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

the waterline is outside the fence line how she got there is not your problem, innocent till proven guilty. so can we get back to viewliners. instead of playing inspector Clouseau ??


----------



## railiner

Seaboard92 said:


> There are some heavyweights that have rounded roof and clerestory style on them. If you look at the Dover Harbor one side is rounded and the other is clerestory.
> 
> As far as cars the profiles in the streamliner era are very similar but there are some distinctions too. Pullman Standard vs Budd fluting doesn't quite match up. Budd fluting continued on the roof.
> 
> And as far as domes there is a uniform dome height. But there are exceptions to the rule for instance the B&O has low profile domes. Some had flat Windows and not rounded. The three car builders also had different methods of designing the car.
> 
> And then there are three different types of domes as well. There are vista domes which generally seat 24 and have a better 360 degree view. These are what VIA operates. Then there are 3/4 domes which were half Budd and half PS cars only used by the Southern Pacific. And they had an atrium with a 18 foot tall ceiling. And one is in operation in Panama. The last dime is a full dome which is a dome Over the entire car body. It's more like a superliner as far as viewing. This is what IP operates on the Hoosier State.
> 
> My source: I work on these cars as PVs.


The Espee 3/4 length dome lounges may have seemed to have an "18 foot atrium ceiling", but in reality, the glass dome was more like 11.5 feet above the standard height floor at the bar end, making them about 15.5 feet tall, overall...

Because they were converted from standard floor cars,

there was no lower level passage thru the cars like the full- length Budd and Pullman ones have. To pass thru the car, you had to climb around 4 or 5 steps up to the dome section, and then back down at the far end. There was just a crawl space for maintenance access between the real floor and the elevated dome platform...


----------



## Seaboard92

Agent said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> SP 3604 was last used on the Minnesota Zephyr in Stillwater. But has since been sold so I'll have to track it down. It was in operating shape.
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, the _Minnesota Zephyr_ cars were bought by Iowa Pacific and moved to Colorado (as seen below).
Click to expand...

It'll be interesting to see what Ed chooses to do with those cars and if he ever gets them restored to operation.


----------



## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some heavyweights that have rounded roof and clerestory style on them. If you look at the Dover Harbor one side is rounded and the other is clerestory.
> 
> As far as cars the profiles in the streamliner era are very similar but there are some distinctions too. Pullman Standard vs Budd fluting doesn't quite match up. Budd fluting continued on the roof.
> 
> And as far as domes there is a uniform dome height. But there are exceptions to the rule for instance the B&O has low profile domes. Some had flat Windows and not rounded. The three car builders also had different methods of designing the car.
> 
> And then there are three different types of domes as well. There are vista domes which generally seat 24 and have a better 360 degree view. These are what VIA operates. Then there are 3/4 domes which were half Budd and half PS cars only used by the Southern Pacific. And they had an atrium with a 18 foot tall ceiling. And one is in operation in Panama. The last dime is a full dome which is a dome Over the entire car body. It's more like a superliner as far as viewing. This is what IP operates on the Hoosier State.
> 
> My source: I work on these cars as PVs.
> 
> 
> 
> The Espee 3/4 length dome lounges may have seemed to have an "18 foot atrium ceiling", but in reality, the glass dome was more like 11.5 feet above the standard height floor at the bar end, making them about 15.5 feet tall, overall...Because they were converted from standard floor cars,
> 
> there was no lower level passage thru the cars like the full- length Budd and Pullman ones have. To pass thru the car, you had to climb around 4 or 5 steps up to the dome section, and then back down at the far end. There was just a crawl space for maintenance access between the real floor and the elevated dome platform...
Click to expand...

Honestly I really want to see one come back to PV operation. They are bad for passengers who have trouble moving around but that atrium area seems very nice. They are rather odd cars being half Pullman Standard and half Budd. The actual car is from a 1937 Pullman order. And the dome is actually produced by Budd. So it's a funky little design.


----------



## JohannFarley

Seaboard92 said:


> Agent said:
> 
> 
> 
> SP 3604 was last used on the Minnesota Zephyr in Stillwater. But has since been sold so I'll have to track it down. It was in operating shape.
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, the _Minnesota Zephyr_ cars were bought by Iowa Pacific and moved to Colorado (as seen below).
Click to expand...

Maybe he is trying to have enough cars to attempt taking over another amtrak route. Based on the baggage car, maybe a long(er) distance than the Hoosier State?


----------



## railiner

Seaboard92 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some heavyweights that have rounded roof and clerestory style on them. If you look at the Dover Harbor one side is rounded and the other is clerestory.
> 
> As far as cars the profiles in the streamliner era are very similar but there are some distinctions too. Pullman Standard vs Budd fluting doesn't quite match up. Budd fluting continued on the roof.
> 
> And as far as domes there is a uniform dome height. But there are exceptions to the rule for instance the B&O has low profile domes. Some had flat Windows and not rounded. The three car builders also had different methods of designing the car.
> 
> And then there are three different types of domes as well. There are vista domes which generally seat 24 and have a better 360 degree view. These are what VIA operates. Then there are 3/4 domes which were half Budd and half PS cars only used by the Southern Pacific. And they had an atrium with a 18 foot tall ceiling. And one is in operation in Panama. The last dime is a full dome which is a dome Over the entire car body. It's more like a superliner as far as viewing. This is what IP operates on the Hoosier State.
> 
> My source: I work on these cars as PVs.
> 
> 
> 
> The Espee 3/4 length dome lounges may have seemed to have an "18 foot atrium ceiling", but in reality, the glass dome was more like 11.5 feet above the standard height floor at the bar end, making them about 15.5 feet tall, overall...Because they were converted from standard floor cars,
> 
> there was no lower level passage thru the cars like the full- length Budd and Pullman ones have. To pass thru the car, you had to climb around 4 or 5 steps up to the dome section, and then back down at the far end. There was just a crawl space for maintenance access between the real floor and the elevated dome platform...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Honestly I really want to see one come back to PV operation. They are bad for passengers who have trouble moving around but that atrium area seems very nice. They are rather odd cars being half Pullman Standard and half Budd. The actual car is from a 1937 Pullman order. And the dome is actually produced by Budd. So it's a funky little design.
Click to expand...

That was indeed a strange marriage...performed in the Espee's own Sacramento shops...The Budd Company shipped the dome components to the SP, to be attached to the Pullman-Standard carbodies...


----------



## AlanB

Acela150 said:


> Someone who condones trespassing. Lovely.


I can assure you that Dutchrailnut doesn't condone trespassing! He's been a railroad man for many years and is well aware of all the carnage that has occurred on the tracks because people have trespassed.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I've gotten into more then enough spats on Facebook with her about her videos.. She clearly is trespassing to get her video. There is no reason to trespass to get a photo or video..


There is a reason others don't take these tantrums of yours seriously. You decide something to be a fact often based on insufficient evidence and then go off all guns blazing.  Specially in this case that area is accessible by walking along the river outside the fence. Perhaps a better approach is to have a friendly conversation to find out how she got there before blaming her of trespassing and blaming Dutch about condoning trespassing.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've gotten into more then enough spats on Facebook with her about her videos.. She clearly is trespassing to get her video. There is no reason to trespass to get a photo or video..
> 
> 
> 
> There is a reason others don't take these tantrums of yours seriously. You decide something to be a fact often based on insufficient evidence and then go off all guns blazing.  Specially in this case that area is accessible by walking along the river outside the fence. Perhaps a better approach is to have a friendly conversation to find out how she got there before blaming her of trespassing and blaming Dutch about condoning trespassing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for letting us know that there is a path along the river. I wasn't doubting that she was not on the ROW when taking the video, but I was curious how she got there (did she walk across the tracks somewhere where she should not have been).


----------



## jis

Possibly Innwood Park or Fort Washington Park which have public access. The location is much closer to Fort Washington Park, which is located at where you see those colorful trees under the George Washington Bridge. Admittedly it is quite a walk and I am almost sure there is no demarcated walking train from there to this spot, but it is accessible on foot from there outside the railroad property line AFAICT, and hence doable.The riverfront all along the Hudson Line in general has public access except where the railroad buts up against the river. This is not a spot where it does so, as the fence line makes it evident.. Some access involves crossing the railroad tracks at grade at designated locations. I have hung around at various locations along the Hudson Line on the strip of land between the river and the tracks that is publicly accessible and have always gotten there completely legally.

Why the heck are we on poor Monica's case anyway? She takes great pictures and videos and is in general a law abiding person, at least until proven conclusively otherwise, not just based on an individual's hunch.


----------



## PRR 60

It is interesting how different the attitude is toward trespassing (or possible trespassing) when it done by a rail hobbiest as compared to just a Joe Schmo. One is praised for getting great videos and photos, and the other is a future Darwin Award candidate.


----------



## PRR 60

In all likelihood the video was taken from a location at this crossing located about 1.5 miles north of Bear Mountain Bridge. It is the only location that provides a match between the railroad curvature, the shoreline, and the background. If that is the case, then the video did not involve trespassing on railroad property.


----------



## A Voice

PRR 60 said:


> It is interesting how different the attitude is toward trespassing (or possible trespassing) when it done by a rail hobbiest as compared to just a Joe Schmo. One is praised for getting great videos and photos, and the other is a future Darwin Award candidate.


Both should be condemned for trespassing, however, the rail hobbyist in particular - much more than Joe Schmo - really ought to know better. Those with even just a personal interest in railroading should have a greater awareness of what can happen, and one would think, greater respect for the rules around railroad property. I suspect the average person is blissfully unaware that even crossing the tracks at other than a designated crossing is trespassing; They honestly see no harm in walking along the tracks just as they would a public road.

As for this video, based solely on what we see in the clip and with no other information, she actually did _appear_ to be trespassing. A walk along the river looks difficult at best, I'm sure most people wouldn't bother (when there is this convenient right-of-way right there...). I'm relieved to hear otherwise.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> It is interesting how different the attitude is toward trespassing (or possible trespassing) when it done by a rail hobbiest as compared to just a Joe Schmo. One is praised for getting great videos and photos, and the other is a future Darwin Award candidate.


Do you feel that way? I don't see a difference. I think in both cases one should verify what one is bitching about before leveling insinuations against someone else, not just based on random guesswork about the terrain that people know little about.

There have been many cases where it was clearly established that a rail hobbyist was trespassing and was appropriately chastised for it. Actually in general Joe Schmoe trespassing is a more common problem because typically they are not aware of the rules of the game as much as rail hobbyists generally are. Indeed it is bad when someone knowingly trespasses as opposed to doing incidentally so.


----------



## PVD

I didn't look carefully at the location, but I know for sure Inwood-Hill Park sits between the r/o/w and the water. And there is a foot bridge that crosses the tracks mid park. I used to enter at the Dyckman St end and walk up, so I never used it, but I saw it all the time. There was (stil is) a roller hockey rink up there where I misspent many weekends. Brrrr. Amtrak didn't use that stretch back in those days.


----------



## Steve4031

Let's get back to the viewliner stuff. Maybe the mods could move the trespassing discussion to a separate thread.


----------



## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are some heavyweights that have rounded roof and clerestory style on them. If you look at the Dover Harbor one side is rounded and the other is clerestory.
> 
> As far as cars the profiles in the streamliner era are very similar but there are some distinctions too. Pullman Standard vs Budd fluting doesn't quite match up. Budd fluting continued on the roof.
> 
> And as far as domes there is a uniform dome height. But there are exceptions to the rule for instance the B&O has low profile domes. Some had flat Windows and not rounded. The three car builders also had different methods of designing the car.
> 
> And then there are three different types of domes as well. There are vista domes which generally seat 24 and have a better 360 degree view. These are what VIA operates. Then there are 3/4 domes which were half Budd and half PS cars only used by the Southern Pacific. And they had an atrium with a 18 foot tall ceiling. And one is in operation in Panama. The last dime is a full dome which is a dome Over the entire car body. It's more like a superliner as far as viewing. This is what IP operates on the Hoosier State.
> 
> My source: I work on these cars as PVs.
> 
> 
> 
> The Espee 3/4 length dome lounges may have seemed to have an "18 foot atrium ceiling", but in reality, the glass dome was more like 11.5 feet above the standard height floor at the bar end, making them about 15.5 feet tall, overall...Because they were converted from standard floor cars,
> 
> there was no lower level passage thru the cars like the full- length Budd and Pullman ones have. To pass thru the car, you had to climb around 4 or 5 steps up to the dome section, and then back down at the far end. There was just a crawl space for maintenance access between the real floor and the elevated dome platform...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Honestly I really want to see one come back to PV operation. They are bad for passengers who have trouble moving around but that atrium area seems very nice. They are rather odd cars being half Pullman Standard and half Budd. The actual car is from a 1937 Pullman order. And the dome is actually produced by Budd. So it's a funky little design.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That was indeed a strange marriage...performed in the Espee's own Sacramento shops...The Budd Company shipped the dome components to the SP, to be attached to the Pullman-Standard carbodies...
Click to expand...

Honestly I want to see one of these cars in person. And I hope he puts that dome in the excursion fleet.


----------



## me_little_me

Steve4031 said:


> Let's get back to the viewliner stuff. Maybe the mods could move the trespassing discussion to a separate thread.


Hear, hear!


----------



## JohannFarley

Any news on Annapolis' current position?


----------



## jis

Back in Hialeah.


----------



## Ryan

Annapolis? Here in Maryland, still snugged up against the bay.


----------



## Seaboard92

Ryan. You just won the Internet for that one.


----------



## Palmetto

Hmm, pretty little town, that Annapolis.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Palmetto said:


> Hmm, pretty little town, that Annapolis.


Indeed. I can see the back of one of my favorite restaurants in that picture.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> Annapolis? Here in Maryland, still snugged up against the bay.


----------



## Thirdrail7

h34r:


----------



## StriderGDM

Hmm... How many times should we do this? 3 times? 4 times, 5? More?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> h34r:


Revenue?


----------



## Ziv

On January 29th, 2012, PRR 60 started this thread with a post that started as follows:

" An article in the Elmira, NY Stargazette describes the production of the Viewliner II order at the local CAF USA plant. One newsworthy item is that the first cars are now expected to be delivered in the first quarter of 2013, a delay from the initial schedule of October, 2012. "

How in the world did this happen? I can understand a delay of a year as CAF and Amtrak hash out some shortcomings and Amtrak adds a few problems to the table, but how in the world did we go from new cars starting to arrive in October of 2012 to the current situation, with a handful of baggage cars in service and a diner or two in testing? Obviously CAF had issues with finding qualified welders, but did Amtrak change their demands in midstream? 

How has it taken almost 5 years to get to this point?

I have read this thread for years and I just can't remember any one thing that has even been pointed out as being THE REASON. Was it a death of a thousand cuts? Was it administrative malfeasance on both parts, Amtrak and CAF? Or is it simply demanding the job go to the lowest offer from a domestic supplier with a withering set of demands on details that will go into the cars?

I am sorry if this is a complete newby question, but I just don't get it.


----------



## StriderGDM

Truth is, it's taken that long for ThirdRail7 to find the right meme graphics to post. But now that he's on top of that, the cars are forthcoming.

One correction, all the full-baggage cars have been delivered.

And Amtrak did make at least one change midstream (I believe it was fewer crew-dorm-1/2bags to full bags)

As for clear reasons, no. Nothing has come out. But as there really hasn't been threats of lawsuits from either sides, my guess is it's a bit of this and that and both sides failing to be clear on demands and deliverables.

Just hoping now things move faster. Diners and sleepers are really needed.


----------



## neroden

It sounds like death of a thousand cuts. The welding issues seem to have cost a year and a half. Administrative chaos between Spain and Elmira seems to have caused additional delays. CAF may have been distracted by their Cincy Streetcar order which was also running late. The factory explosion and subsequent bankruptcy at Columbus Castings caused another delay, of unknown duration but probably at least a year. Amtrak order changes might have had an effect too.


----------



## Ziv

Thanks, for the answers Strider and Neroden. I don't know enough of the inside story to get a feel for what is going on and it is really irritating to see Amtrak so close to getting some nice new equipment and then for the majority of the equipment to always be just around the corner, so to speak. It sounds like we should be seeing more equipment in the next 3 or 4 months, and I really hope that they can build on this order and possibly on the Nippon Sharyo to get additional cars, both Viewliners and Superliners. Maybe. Hopefully.

Between the new Viewliners, the new ACS-64's, the replacement order for the Acela's, the Baltimore tunnels and the other news, it really seems like Amtrak could be moving in the right direction. Crossing my fingers on that.

I am off to Bangkok next week in large part to allow me to catch a train to Singapore, but I will have to change trains 4 times to get to Singapore's Johor Bahru Sentral station. So Amtrak isn't the only railroad that has some issues! LOL!


----------



## neroden

Now, of course, I expect Amtrak to put all the Viewliner IIs at Hialeah and promptly have them wrecked by a hurricane. :-( But maybe they'll have more sense than that.


----------



## Thirdrail7

StriderGDM said:


> Hmm... How many times should we do this? 3 times? 4 times, 5? More?


If all goes according to plan, 98 times! h34r:



StriderGDM said:


> Truth is, it's taken that long for ThirdRail7 to find the right meme graphics to post. But now that he's on top of that, the cars are forthcoming.


Here's one that didn't take too long to find:


----------



## Maglev

What a way to run a railroad!


----------



## StriderGDM

Ah, ok so Monday is bringing something other than what I was sort of hoping, but still excellent news.

And will Tuesday or Wednesday have highs in the 90s? Like say say 97?


----------



## jis

So the next one that crawls out of its Elmira cave, will it Albany? Atlanta? Or something else? And when oh when?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

98(5) - looks to be inaugural revenue service for Annapolis


----------



## Steve4031

Thanks Amtrak blue!


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

AmtrakBlue said:


> 98(5) - looks to be inaugural revenue service for Annapolis


I guess, somehow, I had been hoping it might have possibly been on a Star (-vation) instead. :unsure:


----------



## A Voice

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 98(5) - looks to be inaugural revenue service for Annapolis
> 
> 
> 
> I guess, somehow, I had been hoping it might have possibly been on a Star (-vation) instead. :unsure:
Click to expand...

I'd expect to see all the cars in service before the _Silver Star_ gets its diner back, if it even happens right away.


----------



## bretton88

A Voice said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 98(5) - looks to be inaugural revenue service for Annapolis
> 
> 
> 
> I guess, somehow, I had been hoping it might have possibly been on a Star (-vation) instead. :unsure:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd expect to see all the cars in service before the _Silver Star_ gets its diner back, if it even happens right away.
Click to expand...

Judging by the financials, as long as there are two Florida trains, the Star will never get a diner back.


----------



## jis

As far as financials go, all Diners would probably get converted to lounge car-like usage with enhanced menus and single LSA with passengers self-serving from the counter..  The Sleeper passengers can either come to the Lounge to get their food and eat there or have the SCA bring food to their accommodation.


----------



## Gulfwind2

Excellent news from the Silver Meteor! I would suppose the goal is to send 2 cars per month into service over the course of Q1 & Q2 2017 in order to avoid causing any shocks to the end-point maintenance & turning facilities. Admittedly I am surprised that Amtrak was not acting more swiftly to put a real diner back on the LSL, or perhaps they will do so once the 4 cars needed to equip the Meteor are out on the road next year.


----------



## jis

Has anyone said definitively that this Diner will be restricted to use only on the Meteor? I guess a question that Thirdrail can shed some light on. I don't see any reason for it to be restricted. Of course the only other choice is the Crescent for now.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Has anyone said definitively that this Diner will be restricted to use only on the Meteor? I guess a question that Thirdrail can shed some light on. I don't see any reason for it to be restricted. Of course the only other choice is the Crescent for now.


I was thinking they might rotate it between trains like they're doing with 8400. There may be enough changes that the crews will need some training on.


----------



## StriderGDM

That is my understanding, start to get more crews familiar with it.

And I believe Amtrak is expecting several more by the end of January. So my guess is we'll start to see them on more routes come February. (perhaps in time finally for my annual trip to Atlanta!)


----------



## ScouseAndy

Id have thought they would want to ensure they have enough diners to cover the existing services before they bring back diners on the LSL etc. last thing they would want is to promise the return of diner service on the LSL and then have to pull it again if more heritage diners get condemned before they can role enough out.


----------



## pennyk

I just saw the Meteor pass through Orlando and could see people eating in the Annapolis diner.


----------



## jis

pennyk said:


> I just saw the Meteor pass through Orlando and could see people eating in the Annapolis diner.


It is good to know that they have not run out of food already


----------



## edjbox

Any pics of the new diner in revenue service?


----------



## pennyk

edjbox said:


> Any pics of the new diner in revenue service?


No photo by me. I wanted to see with my eyes as opposed through my phone.


----------



## A Voice

bretton88 said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 98(5) - looks to be inaugural revenue service for Annapolis
> 
> 
> 
> I guess, somehow, I had been hoping it might have possibly been on a Star (-vation) instead. :unsure:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd expect to see all the cars in service before the _Silver Star_ gets its diner back, if it even happens right away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Judging by the financials, as long as there are two Florida trains, the Star will never get a diner back.
Click to expand...

Judging solely by the financials, _as generally reported_, no train would have a dining car.

The diner is not intended to be - nor can it become - a profit center.


----------



## JohannFarley

The diner is purely for the convenience and comfort of the passenger, at least in my point of view.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Annapolis at WPK today .....


----------



## CraigDK

It looks like there is a diner-lite next to it, is it safe to assume that there wasn't a heritage diner tagging along (like they did with baggage cars for a while)?


----------



## keelhauled

CraigDK said:


> It looks like there is a diner-lite next to it, is it safe to assume that there wasn't a heritage diner tagging along (like they did with baggage cars for a while)?


That is the cafe car.


----------



## Triley

CraigDK said:


> It looks like there is a diner-lite next to it, is it safe to assume that there wasn't a heritage diner tagging along (like they did with baggage cars for a while)?


 Should've been the lounge car.


----------



## Ryan

So which is it, the cafe or the lounge? h34r:


----------



## Triley

To make the situation even more confusing, if you asked me in person I'd actually call it the cafe car, since that's how it's marketed on the services I work! But on the longhauls aren't they called lounge cars?


----------



## PerRock

Ryan said:


> So which is it, the cafe or the lounge? h34r:


The _Lounge_Cafe 

peter


----------



## Train2104

Triley said:


> To make the situation even more confusing, if you asked me in person I'd actually call it the cafe car, since that's how it's marketed on the services I work! But on the longhauls aren't they called lounge cars?


And most people on the dinerless trains call it the cafe, since it's the only means of foodservice. On the LD's they're marketed as "dining car" and "cafe/lounge car", though I'm not sure what most people use.


----------



## TylerP42

Just a heads up, New River (Viewliner I sleeper repainted for Gulf Coast Train) is on 48 currently heading towards New York. (Leaving Toledo in roughly 20 minutes)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> So which is it, the cafe or the lounge? h34r:


I call them cafe cars on the single level trains & lounge cars on the superliners.


----------



## A Voice

Well, they were _built_ as lounge cars. The (since removed) smoking room and "diner-lite" rebuilds came much later.


----------



## tommylicious

So is Annapolis in service then?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> So is Annapolis in service then?


Yes


----------



## Heath Loxton

Besides Indianapolis and Anapolis, what other viewliner diners can we expect to see in service by the end of the month?


----------



## west point

Heath Loxton said:


> Besides Indianapolis and Anapolis, what other viewliner diners can we expect to see in service by the end of the month?


Indianapolis is some what unknown at this time. Waiting with baited breath.


----------



## edjbox

Indianapolis was seen in service on the Northeast Corridor on December 4th, along with 4 private cars on the rear of the train


----------



## AmtrakBlue

west point said:


> Heath Loxton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Besides Indianapolis and Anapolis, what other viewliner diners can we expect to see in service by the end of the month?
> 
> 
> 
> Indianapolis is some what unknown at this time. Waiting with baited breath.
Click to expand...

Has 8400 been taken out of service?


----------



## A Voice

edjbox said:


> Indianapolis was seen in service on the Northeast Corridor on December 4th, along with 4 private cars on the rear of the train


Can I ask what is the source of this report? What train was it on? I thought Indianapolis was still back at CAF.


----------



## PerRock

A Voice said:


> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indianapolis was seen in service on the Northeast Corridor on December 4th, along with 4 private cars on the rear of the train
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask what is the source of this report? What train was it on? I thought Indianapolis was still back at CAF.
Click to expand...

Indianapolis is 8400, the Amtrak-built prototype diner. It's been finished and floating around the network of more then a year now. Any changes/fixes that need to be made to it will happen in Beech Grove or Hialeah.

peter


----------



## edjbox

Indianapolis (8400) was on train 98 on 12/4/16 on the NEC along with 4 private railcars

Video is on the fb group Amtrak Northeast Corridor Railfans group

Also mentioned on the trainorders passenger discussion for 12/4/16


----------



## Palmetto

I dined in it on the Crescent in July, as well.


----------



## A Voice

PerRock said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edjbox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indianapolis was seen in service on the Northeast Corridor on December 4th, along with 4 private cars on the rear of the train
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask what is the source of this report? What train was it on? I thought Indianapolis was still back at CAF.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Indianapolis is 8400, the Amtrak-built prototype diner. It's been finished and floating around the network of more then a year now. Any changes/fixes that need to be made to it will happen in Beech Grove or Hialeah.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...




edjbox said:


> Indianapolis (8400) was on train 98 on 12/4/16 on the NEC along with 4 private railcars
> 
> Video is on the fb group Amtrak Northeast Corridor Railfans group
> 
> Also mentioned on the trainorders passenger discussion for 12/4/16


Thanks. Confused that car with the _Albany_ diner.


----------



## neroden

OK, so Annapolis was *approved*. This really should mean that the dining cars should start coming out of CAF pretty fast now, if CAF doesn't have any further problems. Call it four weeks or less to fix all the snagging items on Albany, and then they should start coming out like clockwork...

If Amtrak could get additional dining cars out before the Christmas/New Year's rush, it would make sense to put them on the LSL.

However, given the timing, where they probably can't get them out that quickly, they're going to start coming out in the low season -- January and February are the weakest-ridership months for the LSL. Given that, I would guess that Amtrak will probably choose to retire Heritage dining cars instead, and not reintroduce dining cars to the LSL until spring when rider numbers start picking up again.


----------



## west point

Still holding breath for 68000 & 68002. Then maybe we can really believe diners are coming out of CAF ?


----------



## MARC Rider

When I stepped off #67 in Washington this morning, I saw "Annapolis" as part of the consist of the northbound Silver Meteor that was sitting across the platform.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Has anyone said definitively that this Diner will be restricted to use only on the Meteor? I guess a question that Thirdrail can shed some light on. I don't see any reason for it to be restricted. Of course the only other choice is the Crescent for now.


The 68001 is currently confined to the 98/97 rotation. You will not see it on the Crescent for some time.



neroden said:


> OK, so Annapolis was *approved*. This really should mean that the dining cars should start coming out of CAF pretty fast now, if CAF doesn't have any further problems. Call it four weeks or less to fix all the snagging items on Albany, and then they should start coming out like clockwork...
> 
> If Amtrak could get additional dining cars out before the Christmas/New Year's rush, it would make sense to put them on the LSL.
> 
> However, given the timing, where they probably can't get them out that quickly, they're going to start coming out in the low season -- January and February are the weakest-ridership months for the LSL. Given that, I would guess that Amtrak will probably choose to retire Heritage dining cars instead, and not reintroduce dining cars to the LSL until spring when rider numbers start picking up again.


I do not anticipate seeing any more cars in service before the end of January....and that would be a stretch.


----------



## tommylicious

What about the poor LSL?


----------



## jis

tommylicious said:


> What about the poor LSL?


What about it? As Thirdrail says, no more new Diners until end of January, cl;early there will be no change to LSL at least until then and possibly well after then.


----------



## MikefromCrete

neroden said:


> OK, so Annapolis was *approved*. This really should mean that the dining cars should start coming out of CAF pretty fast now, if CAF doesn't have any further problems. Call it four weeks or less to fix all the snagging items on Albany, and then they should start coming out like clockwork...
> 
> If Amtrak could get additional dining cars out before the Christmas/New Year's rush, it would make sense to put them on the LSL.
> 
> However, given the timing, where they probably can't get them out that quickly, they're going to start coming out in the low season -- January and February are the weakest-ridership months for the LSL. Given that, I would guess that Amtrak will probably choose to retire Heritage dining cars instead, and not reintroduce dining cars to the LSL until spring when rider numbers start picking up again.


Since Third Rail says to expect no more diners until the end of January (and even that sounds generous), it looks like we can put aside any expectations that Amtrak will rush cars in service for the holidays. Amtrak rushing into anything that would improve service? Nice dream.


----------



## keelhauled

MikefromCrete said:


> Amtrak rushing into anything that would improve service? Nice dream.


So they extra equipment they lease for Thanksgiving is a figment of my imagination?


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone said definitively that this Diner will be restricted to use only on the Meteor? I guess a question that Thirdrail can shed some light on. I don't see any reason for it to be restricted. Of course the only other choice is the Crescent for now.
> 
> 
> 
> The 68001 is currently confined to the 98/97 rotation. You will not see it on the Crescent for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so Annapolis was *approved*. This really should mean that the dining cars should start coming out of CAF pretty fast now, if CAF doesn't have any further problems. Call it four weeks or less to fix all the snagging items on Albany, and then they should start coming out like clockwork...
> 
> If Amtrak could get additional dining cars out before the Christmas/New Year's rush, it would make sense to put them on the LSL.
> 
> However, given the timing, where they probably can't get them out that quickly, they're going to start coming out in the low season -- January and February are the weakest-ridership months for the LSL. Given that, I would guess that Amtrak will probably choose to retire Heritage dining cars instead, and not reintroduce dining cars to the LSL until spring when rider numbers start picking up again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do not anticipate seeing any more cars in service before the end of January....and that would be a stretch.
Click to expand...

Why? That doesn't match with my knowledge of how manufacturing operations operate. There's an approved model which has been produced by the factory and is operating, there's a production line, there are cars which are already halfway through production, why on Earth would it take more than four weeks to get more cars out of the factory? Do you have inside information from CAF?

I mean, geez, given the state of "Albany", I could probably get it into service in four weeks, just by myself, if parts and a certified welder were available.

I realize you have inside information from Amtrak, but this sounds *wrong*. This isn't how manufacturing works. If it's going to take that long, it means there's a *new* problem at CAF (another delayed supplier, or simply lollygagging by filling someone else's order first), or that Amtrak is deliberately delaying it. It would be good to find out which.


----------



## bretton88

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone said definitively that this Diner will be restricted to use only on the Meteor? I guess a question that Thirdrail can shed some light on. I don't see any reason for it to be restricted. Of course the only other choice is the Crescent for now.
> 
> 
> 
> The 68001 is currently confined to the 98/97 rotation. You will not see it on the Crescent for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so Annapolis was *approved*. This really should mean that the dining cars should start coming out of CAF pretty fast now, if CAF doesn't have any further problems. Call it four weeks or less to fix all the snagging items on Albany, and then they should start coming out like clockwork...
> 
> If Amtrak could get additional dining cars out before the Christmas/New Year's rush, it would make sense to put them on the LSL.
> 
> However, given the timing, where they probably can't get them out that quickly, they're going to start coming out in the low season -- January and February are the weakest-ridership months for the LSL. Given that, I would guess that Amtrak will probably choose to retire Heritage dining cars instead, and not reintroduce dining cars to the LSL until spring when rider numbers start picking up again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do not anticipate seeing any more cars in service before the end of January....and that would be a stretch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why? That doesn't match with my knowledge of how manufacturing operations operate. There's an approved model which has been produced by the factory and is operating, there's a production line, there are cars which are already halfway through production, why on Earth would it take more than four weeks to get more cars out of the factory? Do you have inside information from CAF?
> I mean, geez, given the state of "Albany", I could probably get it into service in four weeks, just by myself, if parts and a certified welder were available.
> 
> I realize you have inside information from Amtrak, but this sounds *wrong*. This isn't how manufacturing works. If it's going to take that long, it means there's a *new* problem at CAF (another delayed supplier, or simply lollygagging by filling someone else's order first), or that Amtrak is deliberately delaying it. It would be good to find out which.
Click to expand...

It is entirely possible that with all the issues that have gone on, CAF left other diners stripped down until Amtrak gave the ok, in that way if there where more issues, they would be easier to amend instead of having to strip down multiple diners to fix them. So now with the Christmas and New year approaching, you have lost time plus ramping up final production on the other diners. I can see where end of January comes into play.


----------



## neroden

Oh, end-of-year vacation. :slaps head: Of course, if CAF sends all the workers home for two weeks (or three weeks, or four weeks) that'll slow things down. At that point, four working weeks *is* getting us to the end of January.

I've always dealt with organizations which are super-stingy about Christmas vacations, so I didn't think of that.


----------



## PVD

If they are influenced by their European roots, the holiday time would be a certainty. Not as much so in the US, but many companies do find it easier to slow down or shut down for a specific time frame because it is easier than dealing with scheduling and morale issues. Of course the opposite can be true, I worked in a business where we got busy towards the end of the year because clients tried to make sure they spent all the money in their budgets before the end of the year, or found it easier to have work done when less people were around.


----------



## jis

The company I work for basically shuts down for the entire last week of the year, other than for staff involved in time critical sales and servicing activities. So it is not all that unusual in the US either. And this is in a company as blue blooded American as can be, one of the original Silicon Valley icons - or at least used to be


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> The company I work for basically shuts down for the entire last week of the year, other than for staff involved in time critical sales and servicing activities. So it is not all that unusual in the US either. And this is in a company as blue blooded American as can be, one of the original Silicon Valley icons - or at least used to be


I know the last two companies I worked for will furlough their contractors around holidays.


----------



## neroden

It's perhaps surprising how many academic institutions don't even shut down for federal holidays. Neither do the companies supporting them.


----------



## PaulM

jis said:


> The company I work for basically shuts down for the entire last week of the year, other than for staff involved in time critical sales and servicing activities.


I was thinking along the same lines as Neroden. When I worked for McDonnell-Douglas, they pushed out jumbo jets faster than that. But I see your point. Amtrak has been decidedly un-critical for CAF for what, 4 years? So why should it change now?


----------



## jis

We don't get all federal holidays (e.g. President's Day), but we are forced to take off the entire last week, usually involving four of our vacation days. We can either use our vacation days or take the days off without pay. Our choice.  In total we get 11 paid holidays plus whatever is the stash of vacation days one is due as a result of number of years of service and which contract one was hired under. This ranges from two weeks per year to five weeks per year, with an allowance to carry over at most one week to the next year.


----------



## PVD

I did work for a few years under a contract where the employer paid both sides (employer and employee) of the Social Security. Late in the year when people capped they used to give us all the work they could because they saved the employee contribution for SS. Cha-Ching


----------



## StriderGDM

Did I just sign on to worksiterules.com?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

StriderGDM said:


> Did I just sign on to worksiterules.com?


We may have a lot more time to kill before any more diners leave Hialeah.


----------



## Thirdrail7

bretton88 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone said definitively that this Diner will be restricted to use only on the Meteor? I guess a question that Thirdrail can shed some light on. I don't see any reason for it to be restricted. Of course the only other choice is the Crescent for now.
> 
> 
> 
> The 68001 is currently confined to the 98/97 rotation. You will not see it on the Crescent for some time.
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so Annapolis was *approved*. This really should mean that the dining cars should start coming out of CAF pretty fast now, if CAF doesn't have any further problems. Call it four weeks or less to fix all the snagging items on Albany, and then they should start coming out like clockwork...
> 
> If Amtrak could get additional dining cars out before the Christmas/New Year's rush, it would make sense to put them on the LSL.
> 
> However, given the timing, where they probably can't get them out that quickly, they're going to start coming out in the low season -- January and February are the weakest-ridership months for the LSL. Given that, I would guess that Amtrak will probably choose to retire Heritage dining cars instead, and not reintroduce dining cars to the LSL until spring when rider numbers start picking up again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I do not anticipate seeing any more cars in service before the end of January....and that would be a stretch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why? That doesn't match with my knowledge of how manufacturing operations operate. There's an approved model which has been produced by the factory and is operating, there's a production line, there are cars which are already halfway through production, why on Earth would it take more than four weeks to get more cars out of the factory? Do you have inside information from CAF?
> I mean, geez, given the state of "Albany", I could probably get it into service in four weeks, just by myself, if parts and a certified welder were available.
> 
> I realize you have inside information from Amtrak, but this sounds *wrong*. This isn't how manufacturing works. If it's going to take that long, it means there's a *new* problem at CAF (another delayed supplier, or simply lollygagging by filling someone else's order first), or that Amtrak is deliberately delaying it. It would be good to find out which.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is entirely possible that with all the issues that have gone on, CAF left other diners stripped down until Amtrak gave the ok, in that way if there where more issues, they would be easier to amend instead of having to strip down multiple diners to fix them. So now with the Christmas and New year approaching, you have lost time plus ramping up final production on the other diners. I can see where end of January comes into play.
Click to expand...


To add onto this, you still have to get the cars. Even if they are ready just after New Years, you have to make the special move to Elmira, pick them up, bring them to Albany, then Sunnyside, then send them to Hialeah. That's a 5 day trip without anything going on, so if there is another car close to being done, they may wait to pick up as many as they can.

Once they get to Hialeah, there are addition Amtrak mods that need to take place, which will take time.

When you combine all of this, I'd be mighty surprised if any cars were available prior to the end of January and I personally believe a February date is likely.



WoodyinNYC said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I just sign on to worksiterules.com?
> 
> 
> 
> We may have a lot more time to kill before any more diners leave Hialeah.
Click to expand...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Anyone who has met AU Member Nottingham Ed will notice the strong resemblance to Hulk Hogan as pictured in Thirdrail's Post!


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Once they get to Hialeah, there are addition Amtrak mods that need to take place, which will take time.


Um, seriously? After all this, Amtrak isn't getting the cars finished when they come out of the factory? Why on Earth not? The excuse given with the baggage cars was that they wanted them ASAP and could work faster than CAF... But with the dining cars delayed this long, why can't they be produced to Amtrak's specification before they leave Elmira?
You know, if I were Wick Moorman, I'd be making some changes here.


----------



## KnightRail

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once they get to Hialeah, there are addition Amtrak mods that need to take place, which will take time.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, seriously? After all this, Amtrak isn't getting the cars finished when they come out of the factory? Why on Earth not? The excuse given with the baggage cars was that they wanted them ASAP and could work faster than CAF... But with the dining cars delayed this long, why can't they be produced to Amtrak's specification before they leave Elmira?
Click to expand...

This was answered relatively recently in this thread. Now trying to find that and other factual information on the topic buried amongst the plethora of off topic posts, good luck. Just one example to answer your question is WI-FI installation.


----------



## neroden

KnightRail said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once they get to Hialeah, there are addition Amtrak mods that need to take place, which will take time.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, seriously? After all this, Amtrak isn't getting the cars finished when they come out of the factory? Why on Earth not? The excuse given with the baggage cars was that they wanted them ASAP and could work faster than CAF... But with the dining cars delayed this long, why can't they be produced to Amtrak's specification before they leave Elmira?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This was answered relatively recently in this thread. Now trying to find that and other factual information on the topic buried amongst the plethora of off topic posts, good luck. Just one example to answer your question is WI-FI installation.
Click to expand...

Huh, I could have sworn that WiFi was specified in the original contract, but I guess it was so very very long ago that it wasn't. Oy vey.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once they get to Hialeah, there are addition Amtrak mods that need to take place, which will take time.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, seriously? After all this, Amtrak isn't getting the cars finished when they come out of the factory? Why on Earth not? The excuse given with the baggage cars was that they wanted them ASAP and could work faster than CAF... But with the dining cars delayed this long, why can't they be produced to Amtrak's specification before they leave Elmira?
> You know, if I were Wick Moorman, I'd be making some changes here.
Click to expand...

There are things, like WiFi installation, that are not part of the contract with CAF.


----------



## west point

The problem of Wi-Fi brings up the notion that it is a very changing technology. What was installed last year may be completely obsolete or even non-operating.


----------



## Palmetto

Why would you need Wi-Fi in an eating place? I know, I know. ^_^


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

So they can charge your meal to a credit card.

.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So they can charge your meal to a credit card.
> 
> .


Not really. Just having cell phone connectivity is good enough, and there are ways of handling small transactions even without that.


----------



## railiner

Too bad CAF didn't locate their factory close to an Amtrak facility... would make deliveries easier. Could even have been right at an Amtrak facility, if there was sufficient space....

Like Beech Grove, or ALB or Chicago...

Would also make factory warrantee work easier....


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> Why would you need Wi-Fi in an eating place? I know, I know. ^_^


Perhaps the diners will have routers, in addition to the cafe cars.
And for the sleeper snobs, faster internet than the coach class gets from the cafe car.


----------



## Triley

Palmetto said:


> Why would you need Wi-Fi in an eating place? I know, I know. ^_^


For those who don't know the actual answer (and I'm just guessing here, but it seems most logical)...I'm pretty sure that the network connection is installed in the food service cars, because to ensure that a train has Wi-Fi you just need to ensure it has a food service car, which..nearly everything does. Makes more sense than installing the equipment in specific coach cars and then trying to spread them out evenly across consists.


----------



## jis

Fortunately Amtrak has nice short trains so a single Wi-Fi router works. I have noticed that on really long trains in India they just gave up on single router and basically installed a Wi-Fi system in each car which does not depend on the presence of anything else in the train. Also removes a throughput bottleneck through a single router and cellular/radio connection to the outside world.


----------



## neroden

railiner said:


> Too bad CAF didn't locate their factory close to an Amtrak facility...


Hey, clearly Amtrak just needs to restore passenger rail service to Elmira. Erie route or Lackawanna route, I don't care which.


----------



## jis

All this just for saving two days in the occasional delivery of new equipment, which happens like on an average perhaps less than once a year


----------



## TiBike

By "router" you mean a gateway device (i.e. one that provides back haul to the Internet)? In other words the bandwidth you get from a single cellular connection would serve the entire train? That's going to be difficult, even if you hardwire (and home-run) the access points in each of the cars. And it would have to be hardwired – it would be, in effect, a mesh network, even if it is linear, and throughput will drop by at least 1/n and probably more like 1/n^2, where n = the number of hops.

You need an access point in every car (which, BTW, are also routers) because providing a connection from inside one tin can to inside another is way dicey. The problem isn't the access point, which can transmit at max power (1 watt EIRP), but rather the user devices, which are typically in the 25 to 50 milliwatt range, with random antenna placement. It's not impossible, but it will be highly unreliable.



jis said:


> Fortunately Amtrak has nice short trains so a single Wi-Fi router works. I have noticed that on really long trains in India they just gave up on single router and basically installed a Wi-Fi system in each car which does not depend on the presence of anything else in the train. Also removes a throughput bottleneck through a single router and cellular/radio connection to the outside world.


----------



## jis

Yes, access point for the backend network. Of course the single access point to the outside network can be designed to use either multiple connections on the cellular network or some higher bandwidth radio channel (as they do on planes using satellite channels - e.g. the Panasonic system used by United and several other airlines).

Actually I don;t know what backend capacity Amtrak uses from their primary connection point in the food service car, which then connects the routers in the individual cars together. Apparently they increased that significantly on the Acelas thus improving quality of service on them.

Of course since low tech is the key for success in the Indian environment, they find it easier to just have an independent network connected directly to the back end in each car. The failure granularity is one car, and fix is to reset the one car, which the car attendant is trained how to do. Amount to learning to press one button. If that does not fix it, it won't get fixed.


----------



## Gulfwind2

In defense of Amtrak's mechanical folks in Hialeah, I don't think it is realistic by even a stretch of the word to trust the cars as soon as they are sent down from Elmira. There's good news to relish in for the time being, which is that the assembly is seeing light at the end of the tunnejlwith regard to the dining car product. That being said, every Amtrak mechanical facility has its share of "old hands" who know exactly what to look for in a passenger car- especially so when compared to the Quality Control people up in Elmira. The fact that they have one VII dining car on the road is enough consolation for me to trust Amtrak in taking its time to make triple-stamp sure that the cars leave Hialeah without any of the prior defects affecting them while in revenue service.


----------



## neroden

Well, the CAF saga has been depressing. Here's hoping we see the sleepers eventually. We still need more of 'em than Amtrak ordered. I'd still like to see Amtrak exercise those options.

This will probably be the last "heavyweight" order ever (along with the Nippon Sharyo order and the Brightline order). When Amtrak does go to order new single-level coach cars, the new FRA rules will finally allow them to order cars basically off the shelf. And they can probably even get glasstop cafes based on the off-the-shelf coaches

But nobody makes sleepers off the shelf, so there's a lot to be said for getting more which are basically the same as the current ones.


----------



## StriderGDM

neroden said:


> Well, the CAF saga has been depressing. Here's hoping we see the sleepers eventually. We still need more of 'em than Amtrak ordered. I'd still like to see Amtrak exercise those options.
> 
> This will probably be the last "heavyweight" order ever (along with the Nippon Sharyo order and the Brightline order). When Amtrak does go to order new single-level coach cars, the new FRA rules will finally allow them to order cars basically off the shelf. And they can probably even get glasstop cafes based on the off-the-shelf coaches
> 
> But nobody makes sleepers off the shelf, so there's a lot to be said for getting more which are basically the same as the current ones.


Well, if the new regime goes for infrastructure and jobs, there's a chance the option will be used. But, I wouldn't hold my breath.

But agreed, it would be nice.


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> . Now trying to find that and other factual information on the topic buried amongst the plethora of off topic posts, good luck.


This thread is indeed top heavy. That being said, would anyone object to a new thread covering the delivery and acceptance of the diners? Maybe we can have a thread for each fleet. Maybe this can be the baggage thread?


----------



## TiBike

Are there commercial satellite terminals that would work on a train? High bandwidth gear, not the stuff they use for asset tracking and such. Planes are easy – the odd thunderstorm aside, not much to block a satellite signal at 30,000 feet. And airline pilots fly in boring straight lines .

The Indians have it right. Failures are limited to one coach: KISS. Anything more complicated, and the on-board staff would just shrug their shoulders.



jis said:


> Yes, access point for the backend network. Of course the single access point to the outside network can be designed to use either multiple connections on the cellular network or some higher bandwidth radio channel (as they do on planes using satellite channels - e.g. the Panasonic system used by United and several other airlines).
> 
> Actually I don;t know what backend capacity Amtrak uses from their primary connection point in the food service car, which then connects the routers in the individual cars together. Apparently they increased that significantly on the Acelas thus improving quality of service on them.
> 
> Of course since low tech is the key for success in the Indian environment, they find it easier to just have an independent network connected directly to the back end in each car. The failure granularity is one car, and fix is to reset the one car, which the car attendant is trained how to do. Amount to learning to press one button. If that does not fix it, it won't get fixed.


----------



## Seaboard92

Thirdrail7 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Now trying to find that and other factual information on the topic buried amongst the plethora of off topic posts, good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is indeed top heavy. That being said, would anyone object to a new thread covering the delivery and acceptance of the diners? Maybe we can have a thread for each fleet. Maybe this can be the baggage thread?
Click to expand...

I second the notion. It seems like a great idea.


----------



## tommylicious

Agreed. Call it new viewliner diner thread?


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Thirdrail7 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> . Now trying to find that and other factual information on the topic buried amongst the plethora of off topic posts, good luck.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is indeed top heavy. That being said, would anyone object to a new thread covering the delivery and acceptance of the diners? Maybe we can have a thread for each fleet. Maybe this can be the baggage thread?
Click to expand...

Are you volunteering to actively police the topic split 24/7?

From the history here, you might intend to have separate threads for each VL2 car, but after a few seconds, any such distinctions will blur away. In the end, we'll simply have multiple threads, all just like this one, plus the additional overhead of people feeling the need to make the same duplicate post in each of them.


----------



## Steve4031

This thread is working ok imho as long as we stay close to the topic. I check back every time there is a blue dot on my phone next this topic. It's annoying to then find a photo of the city of Annapolis rather than the dining car Annapolis.


----------



## A Voice

I also vote for the motion for separate threads; Even with some off-topic or other commentary which (sometimes appropriately, even) blurs the lines between car types, there will just be less material to have to sift through (182 pages here and counting).

Still, since you said that Steve, you realize someone will now _have_ to post a picture of every city with a diner named for it.


----------



## jis

Albany would be a special case, for which a photo of the Diner and the City in the same photo could be posted should one get the right angle to take such a shot, maybe by the LAB Bridge as it makes its way from Elmira to Albany on the delivery run.


----------



## StriderGDM

If I get a head's up and I have the time, I'd be willing to try to get that shot.

I suspect a call to the local newspaper could generate some interest.. Good PR.


----------



## A Voice

I just want to get the same shot of _Nashville_.....


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Albany would be a special case, for which a photo of the Diner and the City in the same photo could be posted should one get the right angle to take such a shot, maybe by the LAB Bridge as it makes its way from Elmira to Albany on the delivery run.


*Like*


----------



## neroden

This thread is so old (2012) we should start a new thread anyway. I abandoned my original "The next few years" thread, y'know?


----------



## KnightRail

It's way past this thread's bed time. It's time for a new thread, "Viewliner II: ON TOPIC" Everything else needs to go off into general discussion or someplace else. Anyone who comes here trying to read a thread for factual information on Viewliner IIs is not going to read 182+ pages, especially when the majority of it has nothing to do with the subject. It's time to turn the page and close this chapter.


----------



## AKA

KnightRail said:


> It's way past this thread's bed time. It's time for a new thread, "Viewliner II: ON TOPIC" Everything else needs to go off into general discussion or someplace else. Anyone who comes here trying to read a thread for factual information on Viewliner IIs is not going to read 182+ pages, especially when the majority of it has nothing to do with the subject. It's time to turn the page and close this chapter.


I concur


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I started one. Sorry I forgot to post a link to it here.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/69487-viewliner-iis-diners-sleeperseta-tbd/&do=findComment&comment=690346


----------



## Deni

Triley said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you need Wi-Fi in an eating place? I know, I know. ^_^
> 
> 
> 
> For those who don't know the actual answer (and I'm just guessing here, but it seems most logical)...I'm pretty sure that the network connection is installed in the food service cars, because to ensure that a train has Wi-Fi you just need to ensure it has a food service car, which..nearly everything does. Makes more sense than installing the equipment in specific coach cars and then trying to spread them out evenly across consists.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't realize they did it that way until I was on a Wolverine from CHI to PON and some sort of mechanical situation happened to the cafe car, something that involved some sort of rod that prohibited the train from being able to continue on with that car attached, or the rod being re-attached. So they had to drop the car as they were not able to fix it on site, so we lost internet access the rest of the trip, along with beer access.

One of those rare times I was on a train for a business trip rather than pleasure, usually I couldn't care less about having the internet while I'm on a train. But this was the one time I was actually using it, and I lost it really early in the trip. And then no cocktails to boot.


----------



## jis

That is why always carry my own backup internet WiFi service with me in my iPhone.  There have been numerous occasions where I have had to fall back on it, faced with performance or other issues with public WiFi hot spots. I can't wait to get 5G service, but typically even WiFi backended on 4G LTE usually performs better than most WiFi hot spots.


----------



## Deni

jis said:


> That is why always carry my own backup internet WiFi service with me in my iPhone.  There have been numerous occasions where I have had to fall back on it, faced with performance or other issues with public WiFi hot spots. I can't wait to get 5G service, but typically even WiFi backended on 4G LTE usually performs better than most WiFi hot spots.


Yeah, I know most people can still have the internet through their phone. I'm accused of being a Luddite by my friends for my refusal to get a smart phone (I only keep my flip phone because my wife won't allow me to get rid of having a cell phone altogether). My portable music is still a disc-man and a pack of CDs.


----------



## jis

Deni said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is why always carry my own backup internet WiFi service with me in my iPhone.  There have been numerous occasions where I have had to fall back on it, faced with performance or other issues with public WiFi hot spots. I can't wait to get 5G service, but typically even WiFi backended on 4G LTE usually performs better than most WiFi hot spots.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know most people can still have the internet through their phone. I'm accused of being a Luddite by my friends for my refusal to get a smart phone (I only keep my flip phone because my wife won't allow me to get rid of having a cell phone altogether). My portable music is still a disc-man and a pack of CDs.
Click to expand...

And you still use WiFi and the internet?


----------



## PVD

And lots of people who get the internet on their phone like wi-fi so they can connect and not eat into their data plans.


----------



## bretton88

Deni said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is why always carry my own backup internet WiFi service with me in my iPhone.  There have been numerous occasions where I have had to fall back on it, faced with performance or other issues with public WiFi hot spots. I can't wait to get 5G service, but typically even WiFi backended on 4G LTE usually performs better than most WiFi hot spots.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know most people can still have the internet through their phone. I'm accused of being a Luddite by my friends for my refusal to get a smart phone (I only keep my flip phone because my wife won't allow me to get rid of having a cell phone altogether). My portable music is still a disc-man and a pack of CDs.
Click to expand...

I'm just shocked your company hasn't forced the issue with you by issuing a smartphone.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> And lots of people who get the internet on their phone like wi-fi so they can connect and not eat into their data plans.


Yeah, recreational use which is non critical is OK. But when I am actually doing work with a deadline, that simply does not cut it. Public WiFi service today are actually notoriously poor and unreliable when it really matters.


----------



## Deni

jis said:


> Deni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is why always carry my own backup internet WiFi service with me in my iPhone.  There have been numerous occasions where I have had to fall back on it, faced with performance or other issues with public WiFi hot spots. I can't wait to get 5G service, but typically even WiFi backended on 4G LTE usually performs better than most WiFi hot spots.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know most people can still have the internet through their phone. I'm accused of being a Luddite by my friends for my refusal to get a smart phone (I only keep my flip phone because my wife won't allow me to get rid of having a cell phone altogether). My portable music is still a disc-man and a pack of CDs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And you still use WiFi and the internet?
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not a Luddite, I'm just picky about what technologies I'll use (at least that's my argument to my friends).


----------



## Deni

bretton88 said:


> Deni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is why always carry my own backup internet WiFi service with me in my iPhone.  There have been numerous occasions where I have had to fall back on it, faced with performance or other issues with public WiFi hot spots. I can't wait to get 5G service, but typically even WiFi backended on 4G LTE usually performs better than most WiFi hot spots.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know most people can still have the internet through their phone. I'm accused of being a Luddite by my friends for my refusal to get a smart phone (I only keep my flip phone because my wife won't allow me to get rid of having a cell phone altogether). My portable music is still a disc-man and a pack of CDs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm just shocked your company hasn't forced the issue with you by issuing a smartphone.
Click to expand...

My boss used to make snarky comments to me about it. Had I stayed with the company they might have forced the issue at some point, and I still would have refused. But I quit anyway. My life was a lot better than other employees because I had control over access to my time, rather than the company being able to inject itself into my life 24/7.


----------



## A Voice

Deni said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is why always carry my own backup internet WiFi service with me in my iPhone.  There have been numerous occasions where I have had to fall back on it, faced with performance or other issues with public WiFi hot spots. I can't wait to get 5G service, but typically even WiFi backended on 4G LTE usually performs better than most WiFi hot spots.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm accused of being a Luddite by my friends for my refusal to get a smart phone (I only keep my flip phone because my wife won't allow me to get rid of having a cell phone altogether). My portable music is still a disc-man and a pack of CDs.
Click to expand...

Thank You. At least I'm not the only one who is still using a flip phone. No disc-man, but I do still use a Betamax.


----------



## jis

I actually never used a flip phone, since I found it too inconvenient.  I wonder what that makes me. I never started using a cell phone seriously until the smartphones came about.


----------



## west point

Flip phone? you bet. Ever had a butt call and being eavesdropped on your conversation ? Not good at all.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

bretton88 said:


> I'm just shocked your company hasn't forced the issue with you by issuing a smartphone.


I refuse to give my employer my cell number. If my employer feels I need a smart phone for business calls, business text msgs, and business data, let my employer provide it (pay for it).


----------



## bretton88

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> bretton88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just shocked your company hasn't forced the issue with you by issuing a smartphone.
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to give my employer my cell number. If my employer feels I need a smart phone for business calls, business text msgs, and business data, let my employer provide it (pay for it).
Click to expand...

My employer does not have my personal #. They issue me a smartphone for work use (with everything paid for). That's what I was getting at.


----------



## PRR 60

_This original Viewliner II topic has been closed. Discussion can be continued at:_

Viewliner II - Part 2


----------

