# Where to get ice



## ScottC4746 (Jan 12, 2013)

We will be travelling in a sleeper LAX-CHI and then CHI-EMY and thought about bringing the little airline type bottles to drink instead of paying the $6 per bottle on board. Where would we be able to get glasses of ice on board? I figuered the lounge car, but would they give out glasses of ice without a purchase?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 12, 2013)

There should be ice in your sleeper though you'll need to ask the attendant to get it for you.


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## chakk (Jan 12, 2013)

On my trip in the #422 sleeper last week, the attendant had a foam bucket of ice across from the coffee machine, juice boxes, and water bottles available all trip at the center of the upper level.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 12, 2013)

chakk said:


> On my trip in the #422 sleeper last week, the attendant had a foam bucket of ice across from the coffee machine, juice boxes, and water bottles available all trip at the center of the upper level.


It is unfortunate that your SCA violated AMTRAK policy and Food Code by placing the ice out in public access. One of the nastiest bugs out there today, Norovirus, THRIVES in a cold environment and is not killed by alcohol gels. When large cruise ships get Noro outbreaks the prime suspect for transmission is ice and hand rails. Gee... do you see anything on a train that you can corelate to this?

Ice is considered food and thus must be handled with care and cannot be accessible to the general public unless there is a dispensing system that would prevent bare-handed contact with "ready to eat" food (ice). The attendant should be required to wash his/her hands and put on a glove before scooping the ice (though I dont know if this is enforced onboard.)

I know we all like the convenience of always available ice, but until AMTRAK retro-fits all cars with gravity fed ice dispensers, the policy of having ice available in the attendant's room for the asking is the safest from a public health standpoint.


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## TinCan782 (Jan 13, 2013)

In a sleeper, there will be bottled water available for ZERO dollars! As for Ice, I've experienced the "foam cooler" on 422 and other times, have to ask the attendant for some.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 13, 2013)

More often than not I see the ice on public display as well but except for icing down some beers never had need for it; I like my drinks neat or up. I know Amtrak is fairly good about having Food Inspectors ride the trains and inspect the Diners and I would think these should be the folks to crack down on public ice and either administer or recommend on the spot discipline.


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## Phil S (Jan 13, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> chakk said:
> 
> 
> > On my trip in the #422 sleeper last week, the attendant had a foam bucket of ice across from the coffee machine, juice boxes, and water bottles available all trip at the center of the upper level.
> ...


Thank you for your concern but I'll take my chances with norovirus over the rather great inconvenience of having to find (and interrupt) the SCA every time I want ice. Also, Amtrak policy is not as you claim. Rather the manual says that ice will be avilable at all times in the ice container or something to that effect. In fact I've only seen one sleeper that actually had a built-in ice container. In all the others, there's simply a styrofoam ice chest with an ice scoop.

Also, how about a source on your claim that norovirus thrives in cold environments. Yes , there have been cases of norovirus being transmitted via contaminated ice but it's not at all common. And AFAIK all viruses reproduce more slowly at cold temperatures. "Survives", yes, but I doubt it thrives. But, hey, give me a source -- I'm here to learn.

Retrofitting with gravity ice dispensers: I'd be delighted but don't hold your breath.

Alcohol gel: it's actually not very effective against anything compared with soap and water. But what does that have to do with ice?

My advice is to use the scoop carefully so as not to get the handle into the ice and then leave the scoop outside the plastic bag, not inside it on the ice. And for god's sake if you're sick with something thaty might be norovirus, wash your hands throughly before handling any food stuff anywhere! If it's not fun to have on the train, it's even less fun on a two-flight transcontinental plane trip. I speak from experience.

Sorry to jump on you, but not having ice available is one of my few (very occasional) gripes about SCAs.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 13, 2013)

Right now is not the time to take any chances with ice distribution as _*CDC*_ indicates a very danerous strain of Norwalk Virus is running concurrent with the flu. Do we really want to see a remake of _*The Cassandra Crossing*_?

*Col. Stephen Mackenzie*: [_On speaker phone_] I don't have to tell you what we're up against!

*Dr. Jonathan Chamberlain*: What you're up against? I may be the only doctor for a thousand potential plague victims if I haven't caught it myself.

*Col. Stephen Mackenzie*: That's exactly why it's important to contain the disease now and why you'll all be heading for an isolation facility in Wyoming, where you'll get the very best...

*Dr. Jonathan Chamberlain*: In the meantime, what do you intend I fight it with? Aspirin?


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## The Davy Crockett (Jan 13, 2013)

A quick check of the Mayo Clinic's website yields this:



> Noroviruses are difficult to eradicate, because they can withstand hot and cold temperatures, as well as most disinfectants.


So no, there seems nothing special about cold environments and norovirues.


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## jsreeves (Jan 13, 2013)

I think I would trust Amtrak with my food safety before I would some teenager at the local fast food place.


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 13, 2013)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Right now is not the time to take any chances with ice distribution as _*CDC*_ indicates a very danerous strain of Norwalk Virus is running concurrent with the flu. Do we really want to see a remake of _*The Cassandra Crossing*_?
> 
> *Col. Stephen Mackenzie*: [_On speaker phone_] I don't have to tell you what we're up against!
> 
> ...


 I worked in Public Health at one time. I agree that ice machines are one of the worst places for bacteria. It is usually because too many people are handling the ice so I can see why Amtrak feels it is important to control access.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> When large cruise ships get Noro outbreaks the prime suspect for transmission is ice and hand rails. Gee... do you see anything on a train that you can corelate to this?


On our cruise last summer, there was a rather major Noro outbreak. They focused upon, and shutdown, the ice cream dispensers and the video arcade for a most thorough cleaning. Though for me, IMHO, it was more likely caused by the ship employee who was vomiting in the food service area, and them not caring enough to bother even cleaning it up.

Back to the train, I can't see any way of having ice being available for sleeper passenger self-service, except in a ice chest.


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## shelzp (Jan 13, 2013)

On my last couple of trips (SWC) the room attendant made a point of telling me that he would bring ice if I needed any. He even checked during the trip to see if I could use some although I didn't need it because of not having anything along that would benefit from ice.


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## Phil S (Jan 13, 2013)

Let's keep in mind also that the 1-3 sleeper cars are a far cry from a cruise ship with many thousands of passengers and employees. It only takes one, but your chances are more than 10 times worse on a cruise ship than in sleeper.

Next, if a passenger is sick, do we assume that the SCAs will wash their hands properly? The chances of that border on zero. Admittedly having only one person handling the ice reduces the risk, but that has to be weighed against incovenience and any likely benefit. (The thought of someone boarding a train knowing they have flu or, even worse, norovirus is enought to send steam out my ears.)

Next, publically available ice is not against health regs, at least not in my county. My favorite breakfast cafe spot has ice out with a scoop, and they always get scores in the high 90s.

Last, if people are worried about the sleeper car ice, they don't have to use it. I'm not trying to stop them from going up to the lounge car and getting their own ice. I just don't want to have to wander the train looking for the SCA, who may well be right in the middle of a well deserved lunch break.

To me being able to sip some good whiskey on the rocks in the afternoon before dinner, while watching the scenery go by, is one of the high points of sleeper travel. And then another as a night-cap really does help me sleep better.

Cheers!


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## Shortline (Jan 13, 2013)

Bring a soft cooler, ask for ice when you need it, and get enough in the cooler to meet your cocktail needs. Works for me. And, why bring little airline bottles? Just bring a regular bottle, and whatever mixer you prefer, and go at it.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 13, 2013)

WellTrained said:


> EMDF9A said:
> 
> 
> > chakk said:
> ...


Perhaps "thrive" isnt the word I should have chosed to describe the virus itself, but rather transmissions thrive in a cold environment such as ice dispensers, salad bars, sandwich prep areas, ice cream freezers, etc. And they do so because these environments are so hard to clean and sanitize AND keep in operation. Many common foodborne illness are rendered inactive by freezing. Norovirus is not. In addition it can live on a hard surface for weeks.

AMTRAK's policy is to follow the FDA food code. The FDA food code as well as state codes which use it as a model limit the access of ice to "food handlers" or to a closed system where there can be no bare-hand contact with a ready to eat food. Ice is a ready to eat food. I understand your frustration with not being able to get what you want when you want it, but it really is a matter of public safety. YOU may very well wash your hands after you use the restroom, and wash your hands and use the ice scoop properly, but you cannot guarantee that everyone else aboard does. What about that 8 year old in the Family Bedroom who just urinated in the lav, and grabbed a cup of ice on the way back to the room? It takes just ONE person to cause a widespread outbreak.

For convenience I will post the link to the Washington food code which mirrors the FDA code.

http://www.doh.wa.go...afetyRules.aspx

This is the 2005 revision, of which I am one of the authors. (There is a current project to revise again based on the 2009 FDA code. I am not part of that project.) I have a MS in Human Nutrition and Masters in Public Health. With very few exceptions, we copied the FDA code verbatim. I believe that I can, without a doubt, speak with great authority on this matter.

Again , I am sorry for your inconvenience, but there really is a bigger picture.


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## The Davy Crockett (Jan 13, 2013)

Well, I guess I'll keep drinking my single malts neat.  Ice screws up the flavor anyway. ^_^


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## Ryan (Jan 13, 2013)

Given the difference between the mild irritation of having to ask for ice, and the massive irritation of vomiting (and worse) for hours on end (or caring for a small child suffering though the same, both of which I've had to deal with in the last month), I'm glad that Amtrak's policy is as it is.


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## pennyk (Jan 13, 2013)

I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.


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## alanh (Jan 13, 2013)

This comes up from time to time. The FDA's guidance, which is followed by Amtrak and most states, is that ice shall not be dispensed in a way that people can stick their grubby hands in it (they phrase it in a more technical way, but that's what it means). Having tongs or scoops is not adequate in that many people don't use them. Amtrak employees are required to follow Amtrak's food handling rules, though many don't.

Think about that lavatory that's right next to the drinks station on a Superliner. Now, think how many people don't wash their hands after using the toilet. And then they decide to take a drink back to their room, so they root around the in cooler chest for a fistfull of ice. Ew.

Sure, you may be conscientious about washing your hands and using ice tongs, but most people aren't, and that's the reality the FDA and Amtrak has to deal with. "It's okay for people to get sick because it's inconvenient otherwise" isn't a position they want to defend.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2013)

pennyk said:


> I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.


That must make for fun at parties or picnics, if you'll get that upset if the host has the ice in a bucket or a cooler.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 13, 2013)

I've seen Amtrak staff leave bags of ice sitting on the bottom of the luggage transporters, sitting on the pavement next to the train, and sitting on the floor of the train. If you think the ice was "clean" before your next door neighbor touched it you're living in a fantasy world.

You don't want ice from a public location? Then don't take any. Problem solved. Seriously.


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## The Davy Crockett (Jan 13, 2013)

Guest said:


> That must make for fun at parties or picnics, if you'll get that upset if the host has the ice in a bucket or a cooler.


Ahhhh... :unsure: The phantom poster strikes again. :wacko: I don't see anywhere that she said anything other than what she plans to do aboard. Read more carfully next time before you try insulting someone while lamely hiding h34r: behind the 'guest' tag. :angry2:


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## EMDF9A (Jan 13, 2013)

Guest said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> > I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.
> ...


Actually yes I would be and would not consume that ice. Was the food contact surface (The interior of the bucket or the cooler) properly cleaned and sanitized after its last use? (You know... when you went fishing & put the fresh caught trout in there) Yeah, you may have rinsed it out. You may have even used dish detergent, but you did not sanitize it. You didnt kill the organisims alive on its surface. Personally I never consume home made ice or ice out of a container that does not have a single use disposable barrier.

As for the transport of the bags of ice, the bag is a barrier. AS long as that barrier is intact, yes, it can be on the luggage rack or on the platform. The treatment of that bag of ice once it is aboard is of greater importance. How it is stored and dispensed.


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## NW cannonball (Jan 13, 2013)

alanh said:


> This comes up from time to time. The FDA's guidance, which is followed by Amtrak and most states, is that ice shall not be dispensed in a way that people can stick their grubby hands in it (they phrase it in a more technical way, but that's what it means). Having tongs or scoops is not adequate in that many people don't use them. Amtrak employees are required to follow Amtrak's food handling rules, though many don't.
> 
> Think about that lavatory that's right next to the drinks station on a Superliner. Now, think how many people don't wash their hands after using the toilet. And then they decide to take a drink back to their room, so they root around the in cooler chest for a fistfull of ice. Ew.
> 
> Sure, you may be conscientious about washing your hands and using ice tongs, but most people aren't, and that's the reality the FDA and Amtrak has to deal with. "It's okay for people to get sick because it's inconvenient otherwise" isn't a position they want to defend.


Thanks for your voice of reason. When I worked at a health care corp - the "infection control" people were always getting in the "caregivers" face about how seldom they washed their hands ( the "caregivers -- meaning doctors and nurses) - and rightly so. That was with folks that *knew *the risks of spreading disease and had *seen *cases of people hospitalized with nasty gut bugs. But consistently forgot to wash their hands. Even after the famous problems that Semmelweiss proved.

Those posters in the restroom - "employees must wash hands before returning to work" -- if half the workers in the hospital ignore those signs and most of the guys who leave the men's room never wash at all --

I trust the Amtrak coffee and juice, and the meals in the diner. Whether in the USA or in the "third world" -- never take the ice.

I say "*no ice please" *-- think I saw a fairly recent study where some kids did a science project - after the first flush the toilet bowl had less germs than the ice machine in several restaurants.

So, don't use the ice.

Actually, the vomiting and acute explosive watery diarrhea is not as bad as what most third-world people have to put up with every day. So count your blessings - and skip the ice.


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## jsreeves (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm betting "Guest_Guest_" is just the type of person that would purposely NOT wash their hands.


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## NW cannonball (Jan 13, 2013)

Guests


Posted Today, 03:39 PM



pennyk, on 13 January 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.

That must make for fun at parties or picnics, if you'll get that upset if the host has the ice in a bucket or a cooler.

The good thing about those parties and picnics is -- *the "ice handler" *was purposefully clean - washed their hands most likely.

At Amtrak and fast food places -- workers need to keep the job - washing hands is seen as slacking. I think less so at Amtrak.

As said b4 - *say " no ice" --* in mexico, india, and the USA.

The ice might be safe in Japan -- but I'm not going to test it with my personal intestines.

Take care, be good -- and learn how to say "No ice please" in as many languages as you need.


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## pennyk (Jan 13, 2013)

Guest said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> > I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.
> ...


I can have fun without consuming ice at a party or picnic (as long as the beer is cold :giggle: ). As mentioned in another post, I was only referring to Amtrak trips, but I will think twice or three times about consuming ice from an ice bucket or a cooler.


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## the_traveler (Jan 13, 2013)

pennyk said:


> I can have fun without consuming ice at a party or picnic (as long as the beer is cold :giggle: ).


What about in England where the beer is warm? :blush:


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## Gfoley4 (Jan 13, 2013)

This discussion reminds me of when on "The Office" Kevin puts his feet into the hotel ice machine to cool them off. lol!


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## Phil S (Jan 13, 2013)

"Oh the beefsteak it was rare, and the butter had red hair, and the baby had his feet both in the soup" - from Charlie Poole song ca. 1930.


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## Michigan Mom (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm coming to this discussion late, but yeah there are times when you would love to have those ice cubes in your glass... so here's what you can do. Anything sitting out in a chest accessible by the public is obviously risky. Unless you're the first person to open that bag, well, as everyone else has said, you don't know what is in there besides ice. Handwashing is still an art form that has a long ways to go. So you have 2 ways to get ice, if you're on a sleeper, the SCA will bring ice on request. Sleeper or coach, you can buy a drink, even bottled water, from the cafe car and ask for an extra cup of ice with it. Tip accordingly for the extra ice.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 13, 2013)

Michigan Mom said:


> Handwashing is still an art form that has a long ways to go.


Its an artform and science that most Americans are unable to do correctly or effectively.

to PROPERLY wash your hands:

1. Use warm water. (Not HOT. You dont want to have it so hot as to not properly rinse)

2. Rise hands and arms as far up as you can go. The elbow is recommended.

3. Apply soap and scrub vigorously for 20 seconds, being sure to get between the fingers and under the nails

How do you know how long 20 seconds is... Sing the "Happy Birthday" song TWICE. Its longer than you think

3. Rinse starting at the elbows and allow the water to run down and off the tip of the fingers

4. Take clean paper towels and dry your hands and arms. Use as many as necessary

5. Throw paper towels in the waste basket

6 Using a CLEAN fresh paper towel, turn off the water. DO NOT immediately throw this towel away

7. Use this same towel to open the restroom door. Deposit this towel in the wastebasket as you exit.

Note: If you are doing food prep, remove all jewelry including wedding rings before washing hands. Nothing between the elbow and the tip of the finger.

You now have clean hands to enjoy your meal or sip that cocktail in the PPC!


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## Phil S (Jan 13, 2013)

Michigan Mom said:


> I'm coming to this discussion late, but yeah there are times when you would love to have those ice cubes in your glass... so here's what you can do. Anything sitting out in a chest accessible by the public is obviously risky. Unless you're the first person to open that bag, well, as everyone else has said, you don't know what is in there besides ice. Handwashing is still an art form that has a long ways to go. So you have 2 ways to get ice, if you're on a sleeper, the SCA will bring ice on request. Sleeper or coach, you can buy a drink, even bottled water, from the cafe car and ask for an extra cup of ice with it. Tip accordingly for the extra ice.


SCAs always open the ice bags, never the passengers. As for the rest, it's already been covered pretty thoroughly. And I can't imagine tipping extra for the ice. I think a smile and a thank you will be appreciated just fine. Then again, maybe I tip better than some.


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## TimePeace (Jan 13, 2013)

All this begs the question: why do we seem to assume that just because the ice comes in a bag, it is surely sanitary? Maybe ice plants are inspected to the same standards as food processing plants and restaurants? I don't know.

Info?


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## EMDF9A (Jan 13, 2013)

Maine Rider said:


> All this begs the question: why do we seem to assume that just because the ice comes in a bag, it is surely sanitary? Maybe ice plants are inspected to the same standards as food processing plants and restaurants? I don't know.
> 
> Info?


The FDA regulates the commercial production of ice as it does with all other foods.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm197586.htm


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## Ispolkom (Jan 13, 2013)

I take care to sanitize any ice I get in a sleeper with copious amounts of gin. It's worked for me so far.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 13, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> I take care to sanitize any ice I get in a sleeper with copious amounts of gin. It's worked for me so far.


LOL! Bombay Saphire? Tanqueray? Beefeater? Hopefully not Monarch!


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## rusty spike (Jan 13, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> Michigan Mom said:
> 
> 
> > Handwashing is still an art form that has a long ways to go.
> ...


I think that is the way DiCaprio (as Howard Hughes) did it in the movie _The Aviator. _On the flip side it is interesting to see how many men of all ages leave a restaurant's restroom without even a quick wash of the hands.


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## PaulM (Jan 13, 2013)

Call the cops! On a recent CHI-PDX-LAX trip, unattended ice was available in both sleepers. On the EB, room #1 was setup like a news stand/snack bar, complete with ice.


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## TinCan782 (Jan 13, 2013)

shelzp said:


> On my last couple of trips (SWC) the room attendant made a point of telling me that he would bring ice if I needed any. He even checked during the trip to see if I could use some although I didn't need it because of not having anything along that would benefit from ice.


Was Vincent your attendant? When I encountered him last year he was very adamant about not letting the passengers have their own access to the ice (citing health concerns).

If I can't get an ice cube or two, I'll take the Jack Daniels straight. The joys of having my own room!


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## dart330 (Jan 13, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> I take care to sanitize any ice I get in a sleeper with copious amounts of gin. It's worked for me so far.


I'll drink to that! I have only been in one sleeper where the ice wasn't left out. The attendant had it on the seat in their room but it was still self service. I would find it very inconvenient to need to get the attendant every time I wanted a refill.

I don't see what all the fuss is about, if it bothers you, get your ice from the diner or the cafe. There is no guarantee that any of the staff isn't sick or that they washed their hands (even though you would hope so).


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## Ispolkom (Jan 13, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > I take care to sanitize any ice I get in a sleeper with copious amounts of gin. It's worked for me so far.
> ...


I'm a Tanqueray man, born and bred. Martinis are 5-to-one with Noilly Prat vermouth, shaken. I think anything else is heresy, but I'm a martini fundamentalist.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 13, 2013)

Ispolkom said:


> EMDF9A said:
> 
> 
> > Ispolkom said:
> ...


I only recently discovered the pleasure of a good gin martini. I was adamately anti-gin, but after having a Bombay Saphire martini at the local casino's fine dining establishment a couple years ago I can now say that the spirits have moved me to enjoy the distilate of juniper berries... but I am a Bombay Saphire man, though the PPC doesnt stock that, so I'll have to do Tanqueray on my upcoming trip. Do you know what vermouth the PPC stocks?


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## TinCan782 (Jan 13, 2013)

ScottC4746 said:


> We will be travelling in a sleeper LAX-CHI and then CHI-EMY and thought about bringing the little airline type bottles to drink instead of paying the $6 per bottle on board. Where would we be able to get glasses of ice on board? I figuered the lounge car, but would they give out glasses of ice without a purchase?


Instead of "airline type" bottles, just bring a regular bottle of your favorite beverage. Or, you can re-bottle your beverage into smaller bottles.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 14, 2013)

FrensicPic said:


> ScottC4746 said:
> 
> 
> > We will be travelling in a sleeper LAX-CHI and then CHI-EMY and thought about bringing the little airline type bottles to drink instead of paying the $6 per bottle on board. Where would we be able to get glasses of ice on board? I figuered the lounge car, but would they give out glasses of ice without a purchase?
> ...


The small bottles take up less space than a large one and make it easier to pack a variety without taking up your whole grip.


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## Ispolkom (Jan 14, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > EMDF9A said:
> ...


I'm picky enough about martinis that I generally make them myself. I'm not sure the PPC even has vermouth, so if you order a martini, you might well just get straight gin. Lots of people prefer that to a real martini, I'm told.


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## The Davy Crockett (Jan 14, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> 4. Take clean paper towels and dry your hands and arms. Use as many as necessary
> 
> 5. Throw paper towels in the waste basket
> 
> ...


This method works particularly well in the cars were they have replaced the papaer towels with a hot air hand dryer.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 14, 2013)

I appreciate the concern, but the fact remains that setting out some public ice is a victimless crime. As mentioned previously if you don't want it you shouldn't be opening the container in the first place. Start taking responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others for not preventing you from having access to something you disagree with. The FDA regulates our supply but it does NOT inspect food production, processing and transportation in a way that makes the regulations worthwhile or enforceable. Which is part of the reason we now have a new found appreciation for previously safe foods in recent years. Did your lettuce have e.coli? Did your peanut butter contain salmonella? Anyone who was watching what was happening in the animal products markets could see this coming decades ago. If you're still extremely worried about the ice but nonchalant about everything else you put into your mouth then maybe you should rethink your approach to healthy and sustainable living.


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## Phil S (Jan 14, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> EMDF9A said:
> 
> 
> > 4. Take clean paper towels and dry your hands and arms. Use as many as necessary
> ...


A suggestion I've made before -- toss towels in the the big wastebasket by the doors (downstairs) or around the corner (upstairs). That way you don't fill up the pathetic little (and very unsanitray) thing in the lavatories.

As for disinfecting the ice with 86 proof hooch, I think going up a couple of octane levels would be more reliable (I first wrote "safer" but that didn't sound quite right)..

And -- my take on life -- I'd rather fight ignorance with education than with yet more rules.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 14, 2013)

The Davy Crockett said:


> EMDF9A said:
> 
> 
> > 4. Take clean paper towels and dry your hands and arms. Use as many as necessary
> ...


I had no idea that they had replaced any towels onboard with air dryers. It is my understanding that in order use the air dryers (BTW I like the new Dysons) they must also install hands-free faucets. This is code in Washington. And as I said I am not involved with the newest revision, I am not sure what the current FDA code says about that, as it is a more recent innovation than when I was involved in policy writing.


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## TimePeace (Jan 14, 2013)

I like air dryers, but I also like having paper towels to wipe down my own water spillage (inevitable with those tiny sinks and weird faucets) as well as other people's messes too.

If they eliminate the towels, the bathrooms are going to be even less pleasant to use.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 14, 2013)

Texas Sunset said:


> I appreciate the concern, but the fact remains that setting out some public ice is a victimless crime. As mentioned previously if you don't want it you shouldn't be opening the container in the first place. Start taking responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others for not preventing you from having access to something you disagree with. The FDA regulates our supply but it does NOT inspect food production, processing and transportation in a way that makes the regulations worthwhile or enforceable. Which is part of the reason we now have a new found appreciation for previously safe foods in recent years. Did your lettuce have e.coli? Did your peanut butter contain salmonella? Anyone who was watching what was happening in the animal products markets could see this coming decades ago. If you're still extremely worried about the ice but nonchalant about everything else you put into your mouth then maybe you should rethink your approach to healthy and sustainable living.


I am sorry, but with all due respect, and as a public health officer, it is attitudes like that that cause epidemic and pandemics. Improper and unsafe food handling is not a "victimless crime" Thousands of people are hospitalized and hundreds die each year from complications of diseases they should never had contracted if safe food handling procedures had been followed. We live in a society and have a responsibility to look out for each other, not just ourselves.


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## the_traveler (Jan 14, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > I appreciate the concern, but the fact remains that setting out some public ice is a victimless crime. As mentioned previously if you don't want it you shouldn't be opening the container in the first place. Start taking responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others for not preventing you from having access to something you disagree with. The FDA regulates our supply but it does NOT inspect food production, processing and transportation in a way that makes the regulations worthwhile or enforceable. Which is part of the reason we now have a new found appreciation for previously safe foods in recent years. Did your lettuce have e.coli? Did your peanut butter contain salmonella? Anyone who was watching what was happening in the animal products markets could see this coming decades ago. If you're still extremely worried about the ice but nonchalant about everything else you put into your mouth then maybe you should rethink your approach to healthy and sustainable living.
> ...


I could not agree more.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 14, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > I appreciate the concern, but the fact remains that setting out some public ice is a victimless crime. As mentioned previously if you don't want it you shouldn't be opening the container in the first place. Start taking responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming others for not preventing you from having access to something you disagree with. The FDA regulates our supply but it does NOT inspect food production, processing and transportation in a way that makes the regulations worthwhile or enforceable. Which is part of the reason we now have a new found appreciation for previously safe foods in recent years. Did your lettuce have e.coli? Did your peanut butter contain salmonella? Anyone who was watching what was happening in the animal products markets could see this coming decades ago. If you're still extremely worried about the ice but nonchalant about everything else you put into your mouth then maybe you should rethink your approach to healthy and sustainable living.
> ...


No, people who continue to travel and interact with others when they're sick are what causes epidemics and pandemics.

I wonder how many members on this forum willingly cancel their trips the moment they realize they may not be entirely healthy during some or all of their travels.

Thanks to Amtrak's new harsher penalties for late cancellations that's going to be become an even more difficult decision than it was in the past.



EMDF9A said:


> Improper and unsafe food handling is not a "victimless crime."


The root of the problem is that some people don't handle the ice correctly and some people don't wash their hands correctly.

I'm perfectly fine with people warning others about the dangers of using public facilities, but the excessive focus on the ice bucket is becoming rather absurd.



EMDF9A said:


> Thousands of people are hospitalized and hundreds die each year from complications of diseases they should never had contracted if safe food handling procedures had been followed. We live in a society and have a responsibility to look out for each other, not just ourselves.


Taking the ice I use (and greatly appreciate) away from _*me*_ won't make _*you*_ any safer.

Maybe it makes you feel like you're accomplishing something, but it's simply not something I'm concerned about.

If I want to use ice that you're convinced with harm or kill you then go get your own ice somewhere else and leave the rest of us alone.

I'll promise not to travel or interact with others when I'm sick with any sort of communicable disease. Do we have a deal?


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## Ryan (Jan 14, 2013)

It isn't taking the ice away, it's making it marginally less convenient to get to.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 14, 2013)

Ryan said:


> It isn't taking the ice away, it's making it marginally less convenient to get to.


For what purpose? To make you feel marginally more important?


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## Phil S (Jan 14, 2013)

It isn't marginally less convenient. it's much less convenient. And my father was a public health officer so I grew up fully immersed in that tradition. But I just don't see ice as being a major public health issue. And, as I said, my county health department agrees with me.

EMD -- Got some data you can share on disease transmission via ice via other routes? Some facts might just help here.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 14, 2013)

WellTrained said:


> It isn't marginally less convenient. it's much less convenient. And my father was a public health officer so I grew up fully immersed in that tradition. But I just don't see ice as being a major public health issue. And, as I said, my county health department agrees with me.
> 
> EMD -- Got some data you can share on disease transmission via ice via other routes? Some facts might just help here.


I am in the field this week conducting a survey. As soon as I get back to the office I'll pull up the data and post it.


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## jsreeves (Jan 14, 2013)

From all of the news reports, etc. that I've seen through the years, I can't remember a single instance of an outbreak with the possible cause/culprit being ice.


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## Phil S (Jan 14, 2013)

jsreeves said:


> From all of the news reports, etc. that I've seen through the years, I can't remember a single instance of an outbreak with the possible cause/culprit being ice.


I found one. A college football game. Both fans and players got sick and it was traced to ice contaminated by a sick food handler.

Of course, ice is a huge problem if it's made from already contaminated water because freezing just doesn't kill all the live organisms and has no effect on spores. But ice handling? I just Googled "ice disease transmission", looked throught the first 100 or so hits, and didn't find any in which ice handling caused problems.

One series of events that does stick in my mind is people getting sick from airline tap water.The planes had filled their tanks with water in a 3rd world airport in South America and dozens of people got gastroenteritis of some sort from drinking it. I frankly worry more about brushing my teeth using Amtrak tap water than I do about using publically available bagged ice.


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## the_traveler (Jan 14, 2013)

[*Moderator's* *Note*]

I think the OP's question about where to get ice has been answered about 4 pages ago. But for those "who do not want to hunt down the SCA", each room has these little buttons that say "call attendant". Push/pull it, and the SCA will come to your room. And if you do not want to wait, *YOU* can always go to the cafe to ask for ice yourself.



Texas Sunset said:


> No, people who continue to travel and interact with others when they're sick are what causes epidemics and pandemics.
> 
> I wonder how many members on this forum willingly cancel their trips the moment they realize they may not be entirely healthy during some or all of their travels.
> 
> Thanks to Amtrak's new harsher penalties for late cancellations that's going to be become an even more difficult decision than it was in the past.


I have to disagree with you on this.

I'm certain that passengers on airlines cancel because they're sick all the time. :wacko: And the *ONE* person who introduced West Nile Virus to the US from *AFRICA* I doubt came across the ocean on Amtrak, and I'm almost certain they are not an AU member! :blink:


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## Phil S (Jan 14, 2013)

the_traveler said:


> [*Moderator's* *Note*]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My experience is different and may be informative here. I had raw oysters for dinner one night at Squid's outside of Chapel Hill NC. Nest day I checked in at RDU for my United Express flight to ORD, with connection first-class on UA to PDX. After leaving the ticket counter I found myself running to the bathroom. Luckily I had a second pair of pants in my carry-on. I foolishly figured the worst had passed and boarded the plane. I survived until ORD with no ill effects, but then got hit with the time-honored question of which end do I put over toilet first. Noravirus, beoyond doubt. Once at ORD, I called UA, explained my situation, and asked them simply if I could spend the night at the ORD Hilton (at my expense) and fly out to pDX on an early flight. Keep in mind I'm in their Gold Car elite status. "Sure" they said, "that will only cost you $600 plus the hotel room, No problem.". So I got back on my next scheduled flight. Fortunately I didn't throw up over my seatmate and i had booked a bulk-head set so I didn't have to crawl over him verey time I lit out for the john. But it was miserable experience for me and my poor seat mate. and ;'d be surprised if I avoided spreading the virus to anyone else. Alkso, as a footnote I haven not flown UA since.

Just an anecdote, buy maybe still quite relevant.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 14, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> I am in the field this week conducting a survey. As soon as I get back to the office I'll pull up the data and post it.


Feel free to post some information on obsessive compulsive hypochondriacs. Should be rather enlightening to see what we're up against when some antsy busybody implies that ice cubes will soon be indiscriminately sickening people at pandemic proportions.



the_traveler said:


> For those "who do not want to hunt down the SCA", each room has these little buttons that say "call attendant". Push/pull it, and the SCA will come to your room. And if you do not want to wait, *YOU* can always go to the cafe to ask for ice yourself.


It's between midnight and six in the morning and I want some ice. Am I supposed to start ringing my attendant button? Am I supposed to go to the cafe? Am I supposed to start banging on the doors when nothing happens? Please enlighten me.



the_traveler said:


> I'm certain that passengers on airlines cancel because they're sick all the time. :wacko: And the *ONE* person who introduced West Nile Virus to the US from *AFRICA* I doubt came across the ocean on Amtrak, and I'm almost certain they are not an AU member! :blink:


And your *POINT* is?


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## AlanB (Jan 15, 2013)

Texas Sunset said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > For those "who do not want to hunt down the SCA", each room has these little buttons that say "call attendant". Push/pull it, and the SCA will come to your room. And if you do not want to wait, *YOU* can always go to the cafe to ask for ice yourself.
> ...


If it's between midnight & six you're probably not going to get ice no matter what. Those coolers that Amtrak uses don't hold ice very well. So you're far more likely to find a puddle than any usable ice, even if the SCA left it out in violation of policy.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 15, 2013)

AlanB said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


This isn't a hypothesis or theoretical construct; I can already obtain ice whenever I want so long as the SCA leaves it sealed up and the busybodies leave it alone. Now, maybe by 6:00AM it's finally turned into liquid water, but by then I'm either sleeping or I'm ready for some coffee.


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## D.P. Roberts (Jan 15, 2013)

For my next long-distance trip, going to do what I did on my last trip.

I'm planning on buying one of those fold-up cooler boxes (available at Wal-Mart) before I board my train. I'm going to fill it with ice. Then, I'll take it on the train, and keep bottled drinks cool in the cooler. Then, when I get to my destination, I'll throw it out.

So, problems solved. All this rigamarole about ice and the SCA will be irrelevant. Not only will I not have to worry about noroviruses or a busy / sleeping SCA, I'll also be able to keep bottled drinks cold, which ice from the SCA can't do.


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## shelzp (Jan 15, 2013)

FrensicPic said:


> shelzp said:
> 
> 
> > On my last couple of trips (SWC) the room attendant made a point of telling me that he would bring ice if I needed any. He even checked during the trip to see if I could use some although I didn't need it because of not having anything along that would benefit from ice.
> ...


Yup it was Vincent! I have to smile at your drink because it's the same as mine although I've never put ice in it. All I need is a little water to cut the whiskey a bit.


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## Ryan (Jan 15, 2013)

Texas Sunset said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't taking the ice away, it's making it marginally less convenient to get to.
> ...


Feeling important has nothing to do with it. I'd prefer to not spend my train trip puking my guts out.


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## jsreeves (Jan 15, 2013)

It amazes me what the simplest questions here can lead to. :unsure:


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 15, 2013)

jsreeves said:


> It amazes me what the simplest questions here can lead to. :unsure:


True, true. I much preferred the Fries thread, oops, I mean the roomette security thread.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


How exactly does *my* late night ice cube cache result in *you* puking your guts out?


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## Ryan (Jan 15, 2013)

You've got to be trolling at this point, because you can't possibly be serious. If you give people free access to the ice bucket, someone will screw it up and people will get sick. I know that you seem to reject that notion, but I'm going to go ahead and side with the public health experts with formal training and degrees in this stuff.

I'm sure that you're beyond reproach and wash your hands a dozen times a day and quarantine yourself at the first signs of illness, but not everyone is the paragon of virtue that you are. Sorry that you've got to be mildly put out because other people are filthy slobs. That's life.


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## pennyk (Jan 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> You've got to be trolling at this point, because you can't possibly be serious. If you give people free access to the ice bucket, someone will screw it up and people will get sick. I know that you seem to reject that notion, but I'm going to go ahead and side with the public health experts with formal training and degrees in this stuff.
> 
> I'm sure that you're beyond reproach and wash your hands a dozen times a day and quarantine yourself at the first signs of illness, but not everyone is the paragon of virtue that you are. Sorry that you've got to be mildly put out because other people are filthy slobs. That's life.


Like


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 15, 2013)

Ryan said:


> You've got to be trolling at this point, because you can't possibly be serious.


I guess you'd know as much about that as anyone here.



Ryan said:


> If you give people free access to the ice bucket, someone will screw it up and people will get sick.


Let's say I choose to eat “poisonous” ice that was somehow fine until now and eventually get sick as a result. This involves you how, exactly? I've seen public ice set out on dozens of trains. Where are all the sick and dying people? Are they being tossed off the train?



Ryan said:


> I'm sure that you're beyond reproach and wash your hands a dozen times a day and quarantine yourself at the first signs of illness, but not everyone is the paragon of virtue that you are. Sorry that you've got to be mildly put out because other people are filthy slobs. That's life.


You've apparently identified the root cause and then spent all your effort on addressing the symptom.

I'm still not sure how this helps you or anybody else who was never going to access the public ice in the first place, and nobody seems to be able to actually explain that part, but I guess that's just life.


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## jsreeves (Jan 15, 2013)

And here I thought this dead horse had been beat beyond recognition long ago. hboy:


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## JayPea (Jan 15, 2013)

jsreeves said:


> And here I thought this dead horse had been beat beyond recognition long ago. hboy:


Nope, as long as people absolutely have to have the last word on everything, poor Barbaro among many others will never get to rest in peace.


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