# where would I go to lobby for more detroit-chicago service?



## MIrailfan (Mar 3, 2014)

The 3 trains a day isn't enough.


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## SarahZ (Mar 3, 2014)

MIRAILFAN said:


> The 3 trains a day isn't enough.


There has been much talk of adding additional trains once the Kalamazoo to Dearborn corridor work is completed. They're upgrading the track to handle 110 mph, the same way they did for the Kalamazoo to Porter, IN portion.

They'd have to get some dedicated train sets, so there's some red tape involved. I'm sure we'll see some links as more news comes to light. The extra holiday trains go over very well, so that's a good push. I always encourage people to ride them to show that, yes, if they add extra trains, we will ride them.


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## rrdude (Mar 3, 2014)

MIRAILFAN said:


> The 3 trains a day isn't enough.


FIRST n VERY FIRST. Are you a member of BOTH NARP n MARP.

If not, u r not serious. They have student rates. Like Charlie Hamilton, if money is the issue for membership, I will pay u r dues.


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## SarahZ (Mar 3, 2014)

MI Rail Fan is kind of new. Maybe they haven't heard of NARP yet.

Here's a link: http://www.narprail.org/


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## afigg (Mar 3, 2014)

MIRAILFAN said:


> The 3 trains a day isn't enough.


You should lobby or contact your local state representatives and state government agencies. Fortunately Detroit to Chicago is one of the corridors that will get trip time improvements and new rolling stock from the "high speed" rail money. By 2017, the DET-CHI trip times should be cut by least an hour and new bi-level coach cars should be in service.

As for increasing frequency from 3 trains a day, I'm not clear on whether that is in the plans for the upgrades that are currently funded. The route may need more double tracking to get to 4 or 5 trains a day.

The state of Michigan has a website for the Chicago to Detroit/Pontiac corridor project that you can check for information and technical documents.


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## rrdude (Mar 3, 2014)

GOGGLE


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## CHamilton (Mar 3, 2014)

Agreed with the above. Let's also add that under current law, additional Detroit-Chicago service would need to be paid for by the states it serves (MI, IN, IL). Therefore, it's *also* important to become active in your state organization, the Michigan Association of Railroad Passengers, and lobby your state elected representatives.


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## SarahZ (Mar 3, 2014)

rrdude said:


> GOGGLE


First of all, it's Google. Second of all, if we told everyone to use Google, we wouldn't have a forum.


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## SarahZ (Mar 3, 2014)

Thanks for the link to MARP, Charlie. I wasn't aware of that!


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## CHamilton (Mar 3, 2014)

One more thing you can do very easily: sign this petition!

Ask Congress to Support Passenger Rail

And for folks in other states, NARP has a list of state rail advocacy organizations throughout the country.


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## Trogdor (Mar 3, 2014)

I find the Midwest High Speed Rail Association to be more productive and a better use of my donation dollar than NARP (whose membership I dropped several years ago, and will probably never rejoin).

They do better local lobbying and hold events in the Midwest region. They also understand the importance of linking local transit into an intercity rail network.

NARP, on the other hand, has a "vision for the future" that is big on having a bunch of lines on a map, but short on specifics about what kind of service it would be, or how we would get there, or even making sure that links don't lead to a "404" page.

Edit: Here's the MHSRA link: http://www.midwesthsr.org


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## railbuck (Mar 4, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > GOGGLE
> ...


And if we didn't have a forum, there wouldn't be nearly as much for Google to find. <_<


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 4, 2014)

There's a lot of good advice in the previous comments.

Here's what I think you can do:

Join NARP, MARP and Midwest High Speed Rail Association. MHSRA has been particularly successful in Illinois. They have a lobbyist in Springfield and there are quite a few legislators who actively support passenger rail. Passenger rail gets support from both parties in Illinois since rural, urban and suburban areas all benefit from increased rail service. MHSRA also sponsors a lot of studies that push forward concepts for the future of passenger rail. I'm not how active they are in Michigan, but you could call or write them. Rick Harnish, the executive director, is on top on passenger train issues.

Write your local state representative and senator and let them know that you support better passenger rail services. If they are to support rail, they need to know that their constituents are behind them.

Write the governor and express your support for passenger rail.

Write your local newspapers and comment on their websites if they run stories about passenger rail.

All this take some effort (and money) but it's better than just sitting around and complaining about how things never improve.

Actually, passenger rail is in pretty good shape in Michigan. It seems to be bipartisan and the state has purchased a large chunk of the Wolverine route and will be making improvements. New cars and locomotives are coming.

Additional frequencies will no doubt be added, but that may be dependent on the South of the Lake Project, which Michigan DOT is spearheading. Even indiana seems willing to go along with this project Check the MDOT website for details.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 4, 2014)

Don't join NARP, unless changes occur now that Capon is gone, its a moribund organization. Join your local rail advocacy groups, like MARP and MHSRA, for sure. But don't just join them. What they generally don't need is your X dollars a year. What they need is brainpower, people willing to get out on the ground and do stuff. Become INVOLVED. And if they don't let you become involved, find another organization that will let you become involved.

My organization is small, and consists of just a few members. We have a lot of brainpower (most of our members, for instance, graduated from one of the top ten engineering schools) and people who are actually doing stuff. We are currently working on a very useful study that rates service level by station and compares it with similar systems- ours is commuter rail focused, primarily in New Jersey. We could use money, sure- I speak as the treasurer - but without a hell of a lot more money, the money won't make much of a difference either way.

I did an initiative once I became treasurer to raise our dues 50%, which has improved our financial condition, but only insomuch as ensuring that we are going to be solvent for the foreseeable future. I would like to have several orders of magnitude more money to play with to do things like promote our cause better, sure, but thats really not the important part.

What we really need is more people. Not more rail fans who hi-jack meetings with irrelevant reminiscing about the Super Limited that ran from Bangor to Barstow with 65 dome cars 14 dining cars and 200 all master room sleepers with a swimming pool in the observation car. People who understand that we are here to improve mobility, increase frequency, and better serve New Jersey's riding public by providing adequate service that allows people to get from point a to point b most hours of the day with reasonable speed and connections.

If you want it, Mr. MITrain, YOU are going to have to fight for it. Not with your money, but with your time and energy. Increased mobility for that subset of people who chose not to or, more likely, can not, operate an automobile.

Passenger rail service in Michigan is in terrible shape. Passenger rail service in Detroit is marginal, but seems to have a good chance to improve in the coming years. But you have just three meager routes, one with 3 round trips, and the others with one round trip each. Michigan to Chicago? It has the population density, distance, and terrain perimeters for hourly or better service. Detroit would be revived much more effectively if they allowed for construction of a functional radial commuter system. Michigan is a state with very limited service. One of these days, my friend, try to figure out how to get between, say, Bloomfield Hills and Marquette without using a car.


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## SarahZ (Mar 4, 2014)

I'd love to see something between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo, similar to the Rail Runner. We have enough commuter traffic, and U.S. 131 is simply awful in the winter. A lot of people go up to GR to shop too.


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## rrdude (Mar 4, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I'd love to see something between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo, similar to the Rail Runner. We have enough commuter traffic, and U.S. 131 is simply awful in the winter. A lot of people go up to GR to shop too.


GOZOOBLE it.


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## SarahZ (Mar 4, 2014)

rrdude said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love to see something between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo, similar to the Rail Runner. We have enough commuter traffic, and U.S. 131 is simply awful in the winter. A lot of people go up to GR to shop too.
> ...


Are you on something or having a stroke, because I seriously cannot figure you out lately. If you have something to contribute, by all means, contribute. Otherwise, knock it off.


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## rrdude (Mar 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


Seriously, Sarah you need to take a chill pill. I made a typo on the stupid iPad that I use for Google, and then get called out on it. I do agree with you on US 131 feeder or stub train. I had petitioned for that for that four years while a student at WM you. just having fun.


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

It's not so much the typos as telling people to use Google constantly. Some people prefer active discussion, not getting yelled at to use Google.


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## CHamilton (Mar 5, 2014)

We're not librarians (at least collectively; some AU members are, I believe), but the group knows a lot of information. And at least some of it is correct!


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> U.S. 131 is simply awful in the winter. A lot of people go up to GR to shop too.


It will only get worse this summer as I heard there will be construction on the S-curve. As I've mentioned on other threads, a train from GR to Detroit is sorely needed, GR to Kalamazoo too. It's insane that neither exists!


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

I would love to have a train that not only went up to GR, but Traverse City as well. It would be great for tourism. 

It would also be nice to have one that went north from Lansing to Mackinac City. That could be good for the Mackinac Island crowds in the summer and college students throughout the year. I know I'd probably visit my parents more often if I didn't have to do that boring drive up north (not to mention, a dangerous drive in the winter).


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I would love to have a train that not only went up to GR, but Traverse City as well. It would be great for tourism.
> 
> It would also be nice to have one that went north from Lansing to Mackinac City. That could be good for the Mackinac Island crowds in the summer and college students throughout the year. I know I'd probably visit my parents more often if I didn't have to do that boring drive up north (not to mention, a dangerous drive in the winter).


We've had this conversation before.....and I still agree. LOL

But seriously, major metropolitan areas and tourist spots are not connected or served and hopefully someday this will change.

Also, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is without passenger rail currently. My mom has told me stories of how she, her parents and her sisters rode the train up north when she was a child.


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

But... how? There's no way to cross the Straits. They'd have to have a bus bridge between Mackinac City and St. Ignace.


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> But... how? There's no way to cross the Straits. They'd have to have a bus bridge between Mackinac City and St. Ignace.


Wisconsin.


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## PerRock (Mar 5, 2014)

There is talks in the government about getting a train up and running to connect the southern part of the LP to the northern part. My ex-boss has a cabin up there and keeps tabs on the process, it's still in the 'just talking about it' phase. But maybe some year...

The biggest issue for getting more trains to run between Michigan & CHI, is not actually in Michigan. It's the short section where they run in Indiana. The line Amtrak currently uses is basically at capacity right now. There are plans to ease the capacity issues down there; but until that's done your not going to see really much in the way of expanded service.

peter

Edit/PS: just had a thought, why can't Amtrak negotiate to use the South Shore line in Indiana? That line is used a lot less & is kept up to a good standard for passenger service. It would probably even be easier to implement some high-speed services on it, as I'm sure NICTD would be more favorable to chipping in then NS. Amtrak services could transfer over just after the Michigan City station, and then come back over to the NS just before the Hammond stop. Not to mention the potential to add additional stops along the way using NICTD stations (no need to build infrastructure.)

peter


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## CHamilton (Mar 5, 2014)

tim54449 said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > But... how? There's no way to cross the Straits. They'd have to have a bus bridge between Mackinac City and St. Ignace.
> ...


Also train ferries.


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ said:
> ...


Yes, this is true, Charlie. The Mackinac Bridge did not exist during the time my mom was a young girl. She was born in 1934. However, I do believe she told me they rode the train from Holland, MI to Chicago and north to the U.P. of Michigan. She also remembers one of their trips, the train got stuck due to a snow drift, very similar to the one on the Pere Marquette a few days ago (that's why she brought the story up again, we were talking about the PM and it's snow drift issue).


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

Wisconsin makes sense. I just thought you meant they went up north via the LP and then used a train ferry or something, as Charlie mentioned.


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## PerRock (Mar 5, 2014)

They could tunnel...

peter


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

PerRock said:


> They could tunnel...
> 
> peter


Oh, lord. I can't even imagine how much work that would require. Plus, the frost layer isn't going to melt until September.


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

PerRock said:


> The biggest issue for getting more trains to run between Michigan & CHI, is not actually in Michigan. It's the short section where they run in Indiana. The line Amtrak currently uses is basically at capacity right now. There are plans to ease the capacity issues down there; but until that's done your not going to see really much in the way of expanded service.
> 
> peter


I've also mentioned this on other threads.....an A/C on the Pere Marquette informed me that a second train will be added on that line in conjunction with the opening of the new Intermodal station in Grand Rapids, which at the time I last talked to him in November, was slated for May.....now I hear from someone on another thread, that the open date for Amtrak usage has been pushed back to at least July, because CSX is dragging their feet (surprise! surprise!). The station will probably still open in May for bus service, and the additional train may still start running this spring, to the existing station. We'll see.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 5, 2014)

Or they could run a line over the mackinac bridge, which would probably be very simple.


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Or they could run a line over the mackinac bridge, which would probably be very simple.



Not sure how they'd manage that....unless you close one lane of traffic in each direction and rail up the middle separating the two lanes.


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

tim54449 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Or they could run a line over the mackinac bridge, which would probably be very simple.
> ...


And let's not forget the interior lanes are a grate, not concrete. It's designed to let the wind through.







Also, considering how often the bridge is closed due to high winds, I can't imagine this would make for a reliable train route.


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

P.S. I love driving on the grate. The wind shifting my car around freaks passengers out, especially when I tell them to look down.  (Due to the speed, it looks like there's nothing underneath you.)


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## CHamilton (Mar 5, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Or they could run a line over the mackinac bridge, which would probably be very simple.


Or they could build a gondola, which seems to be a popular solution these days. I can just see it whipping around in the wind...


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

I'd feel invaded by a train running on the bridge as well. I love the Mackinac, the only suspension bridge I've ever been on. It always seems like you're in a whole different world once you get to the other side in St. Ignace. The air seems cleaner and crisper. I went over it last September for about the sixth time or so, and just like trains (for me) the novelty never ends. Of course, waiting for us on the other side.....


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Or they could run a line over the mackinac bridge, which would probably be very simple.
> ...


Oh my gosh. Many people are afraid to drive over the bridge. I can't imagine pitching _that_.


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

Mmm... pasties.

(Note to others: it's pronounced PAST-ee, with a short "a")

They are so delicious. There's a store in Richland that sells authentic pasties if you're ever out this way. It's right on M-89.

https://www.facebook.com/UpNorthSandwichPastyCo


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## SarahZ (Mar 5, 2014)

I agree about entering another world, though. I always loved the scenery that greeted me when I came off the bridge and exited onto U.S. 2. That's when I knew I was "home".


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> Mmm... pasties.
> 
> (Note to others: it's pronounced PAST-ee, with a short "a")
> 
> ...



No way! My mom has been looking for a place. She makes her own, however, and made a batch when I was there for Christmas. I believe she has two left and could be saving them for me when I'm in Holland next week. She bought one at a farmer's market in Downtown Holland, and said it wasn't bad but it wasn't good either. I'll have to plan a day trip for her and her best friend and we'll have to check it out in a few months, after I'm settled in Holland.

There are no good pasties here in Wisconsin, by the way, unless you go up toward the Michigan border. I guess since there aren't many mineral mines in this part of the state, the tradition hasn't hit here. They do, however, have frozen ones in our grocery store. I'd give them a C-, D+ as my standards are high. Muldoon's pasties were okay....but not as good as what we had in 2012 at my mom's cousin. A nearby shrine in Baraga makes them to order.

Easiest of all, I should get my mom to teach me how to make them.


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

Of course, I hijacked the thread to mention some of my favorite food......or did I hijack it? Maybe it fits in as a motivator to get Amtrak trains to the Upper Peninsula. And yes, my mom feels the same way, once she's on US-2 in St. Ignace and headed west, she's approaching "home". I guess people cannot understand what we are talking about until they experience it,


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## Ispolkom (Mar 5, 2014)

tim54449 said:


> There are no good pasties here in Wisconsin, by the way, unless you go up toward the Michigan border. I guess since there aren't many mineral mines in this part of the state, the tradition hasn't hit here. They do, however, have frozen ones in our grocery store. I'd give them a C-, D+ as my standards are high. Muldoon's pasties were okay....but not as good as what we had in 2012 at my mom's cousin. A nearby shrine in Baraga makes them to order.
> 
> Easiest of all, I should get my mom to teach me how to make them.


Perish the thought. Have you never been to Mineral Point? Great pasties down, there, especially if you can get the ones the Methodist church ladies make for bake sales.


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## tim49424 (Mar 5, 2014)

Ispolkom said:


> tim54449 said:
> 
> 
> > There are no good pasties here in Wisconsin, by the way, unless you go up toward the Michigan border. I guess since there aren't many mineral mines in this part of the state, the tradition hasn't hit here. They do, however, have frozen ones in our grocery store. I'd give them a C-, D+ as my standards are high. Muldoon's pasties were okay....but not as good as what we had in 2012 at my mom's cousin. A nearby shrine in Baraga makes them to order.
> ...


I had never heard of it and had to look it up on a map. I'm pretty surprised they have them down that far south and west. The only place I've seen them in Wisconsin was when I went up to the Apostle Islands on that same trip in 2012 and sadly the lady who made them was off for a few days. That was on the south side of Bayfield, along WI-13. I guess I wish I'd heard of Mineral Point at an earlier time....it would have made a good day trip for me to check that out.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 6, 2014)

I heard they only have two seasons up there- winters here and winters coming.


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## tim49424 (Mar 6, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> Mmm... pasties.
> 
> (Note to others: it's pronounced PAST-ee, with a short "a")
> 
> ...


Talking on the other thread again about pasties, made me want to look at the link. The page is gone. Then I google searched the place, and found a link, but when I accessed it, it rerouted me to a page saying the domain was for sale. Could it be that they closed down?  I'm so hungry for one, and luckily my mom has told me she still has two from her batch she made for us back around Thanksgiving.....we'll have them next week when I'm there.


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## SarahZ (Mar 6, 2014)

That's strange. The Facebook page I linked is still up.

Try this one: http://www.yelp.com/biz/up-north-sandwich-and-pasty-co-richland


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## tim49424 (Mar 6, 2014)

Yes, strange indeed....I tried again got the facebook page to come up, but they have no links to a webpage on it. I'll have to show my mom when I am out there, as she does not do facebook. The place should not be difficult for us to find as we've been down that way many times.


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## neroden (Mar 12, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> I would love to have a train that not only went up to GR, but Traverse City as well. It would be great for tourism.


When I visited Grand Rapids and Lansing this winter, the sheer number of people who were discussing visiting Traverse City was *far* higher then I would have imagined had I not seen it for myself. On paper, Traverse City doesn't look like a sensible passenger railroad route, but in practice it probably is.


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## neroden (Mar 12, 2014)

PerRock said:


> Edit/PS: just had a thought, why can't Amtrak negotiate to use the South Shore line in Indiana?


This has been discussed. Amtrak occasionally detours across the South Shore Line. When this is done, Amtrak then takes the Illini/Saluki route to Union Station, up and over the St. Charles Air Line in Chicago. This is actually a lot slower than the regular route due to the backtracking, and because the South Shore Line is a lot curvier than the NS Chicago Line. (The NS Chicago Line is ramrod straight in the section parallel to the Skyway. And there's room for 2 more tracks, which were ripped out by Conrail.)



> Amtrak services could transfer over just after the Michigan City station, and then come back over to the NS just before the Hammond stop.


You can't get back onto the Chicago Line at Hammond. Given the current layout, you have to go all the way past McCormick Place to reconnect, unless you want to use very-low-speed track controlled by several different railroads and busy with slow local Chicago freight traffic.
There is a proposal to reconnect the Illinois Central / CN / Metra Electric lines to the NS Chicago line at Grand Crossing, which would benefit the Illini/Saluki/City of New Orleans by cutting out the backtracking. That might make the idea of running Amtrak over NICTD somewhat more viable, but it would still be slower than a dedicated route. And the final problem: the most congested part of the NS Chicago line is actually north of Grand Crossing.

There's really no substitute for a dedicated, fast passenger route from Chicago Union Station to Indiana. There's room for it...


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## neroden (Mar 12, 2014)

Regarding the Original Poster's Original Question, the primary target for lobbying at this point, given the way the federal laws are currently structures, should always be your state legislators and governor. And possibly *candidates* if you think your district is competitive.

In Michigan, you're actually pretty lucky in this regard, the governor is actually supporting improved train service, and the legislature is going along with it. In Iowa, the governor supported improved service, but the state legislature sabotaged him. In Wisconsin... poor Wisconsin.

The secondary target for lobbying is is the city & township governments. These are usually already very supportive, but they talk to the state legislators and governor more than you do, and the state legislators and governor listen to them more. So getting them on your side matters.

Usually to get a politician's attention, you need a "delegation" -- several people from the same place who are all saying the same thing.

In Grand Rapids it seems to be important to get the local "titans of business" on your side, since that seems to be how that city operates. (Everything in that town seems to be stamped with "Meyer" or "DeVos" or someone.) Couldn't give you a clue as to how to start on that.

MARP is a pretty good organization to get involved with; they're well-connected and get news on the state of rail-related things in the government pretty quickly. Most of the other state rail advocacy organizations are much less "on top of things".


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## neroden (Mar 12, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> MIRAILFAN said:
> 
> 
> > The 3 trains a day isn't enough.
> ...


They're also adding some passing sidings.



> They'd have to get some dedicated train sets, so there's some red tape involved.


Some trains have already been ordered, supposed to arrive in 2015.
(Lucky Michigan. Other states are doing a *lot* worse.)

After this stuff is done, the track in Michigan should be good to run more trains per day, and there should be enough trains for it. Then it's a matter of getting the Indiana/Illinois problems fixed.


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