# Northwest mudslide season begins



## CHamilton (Nov 1, 2012)

Here in the Northwest, this week's weather has been no match for the east coast's -- for which we are grateful! Nonetheless, we've had heavy, persistent rains and significant winds. So I wasn't surprised to see this tweet from @Amtrak_Cascades earlier today.



> Train 510 is being delayed between Edmonds and Everett due to a possible landslide. Track inspectors enroute to investigate.


Last year, such a situation would have meant an automatic shutdown of passenger train service on BNSF tracks for 48 hours. But today, we got this instead:



> UPDATE- Single track operation in-effect between Edmonds & Everett due to mudslide. Train 510 departed Edmonds 2hrs, 14min. late.


Okay, a 2+ hour delay isn't good...but the trains were still running -- and have apparently continued to do so for the rest of the day. I've seen no further news, but let's hope this signals more cooperation between BNSF, the state, and Amtrak on this issue.


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## winterskigirl (Nov 1, 2012)

That's progress from previous years :giggle:


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## CHamilton (Nov 1, 2012)

Latest tweet, from just a few minutes ago:



> Cascades service 517 from Vancouver BC to Seattle restored 33 mins late after mudslide inspection of tracks. Residual delays expected.


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## Nathanael (Nov 1, 2012)

Oooh. That's a huge improvement over BNSF's old "48-hour rule".


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## Trogdor (Nov 1, 2012)

Depends on the nature of the mudslide.

I was on train 510 a couple years ago when we hit a small mudslide (previously undetected) on track 2 (away from the water), and the result was that they embargoed passenger traffic on track 2, but still allowed it on track 1.

This could be a similar situation.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 2, 2012)

So does this mean BNSF is no longer applying the 48 hour rule?


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## EB_OBS (Nov 2, 2012)

This was a pretty small event and only was over the rail on one main track where there is a double mainline. Passenger trains were allowed to continue operating through on the main track that wasn't affected by the slide.

As far as I know, BNSF has not changed it's policy of a "48 hour moratorium" whenever a spoonful of dirt goes over the rail.


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## CHamilton (Nov 19, 2012)

Sigh. In the Northwest, we're crossing our fingers that train service won't be disrupted by mudslides as we head into Thanksgiving week.







The latest tweet from @Amtrak_Cascades doesn't look promising.

amtrak_cascades: Train 513 departed Bellingham 21 minutes late due to train congestion. Further delays expected towards Mt. Vernon due to track problems.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 19, 2012)

Well looks a mudslide hit this afternoon near Everett as usual 48 rule in effect until Wednesday afternoon. I'm supposed to be on the Thursday morning 513 from BEL to OLW betting a busititution. At least if there are no more mudslides there should be a trainset in Vancouver.


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## montana mike (Nov 19, 2012)

One would think they could fix this after all of these years!!!!


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 19, 2012)

montana mike said:


> One would think they could fix this after all of these years!!!!


I seem to remember reading mudslides were not a significant issue until they started building more houses on the bluffs above the tracks, totally messing up natural drainage and causing increased erosion.


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## Phil S (Nov 19, 2012)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > One would think they could fix this after all of these years!!!!
> ...


I'd be interested in where you might have read that. When I lived there in the 70s I used to walk the beach and tracks below those cliffs and it seemed to me it was pretty fully built up back then. There's no way on earth to fix it. The cliffs are a hundred feet high and nothing but glacial mud. Assuming the house roofs and pavement all drain into storm drains, there might be less erosion than before. What I recall is seeps all over the cliff face, no water actually flowing down from the top. Then again I only got to know the couple of miles north from the public beach.

But the current storm is dumping a lot of water and there are more storms on the way. Not looking good for the holiday.


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## CHamilton (Nov 19, 2012)

Amtrak_Cascades 3:35pm via engage121

Service between Vancouver BC to Seattle disrupted due to a 48Hr Railroad Moratorium in place due to mudslides in area.


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## George Harris (Nov 19, 2012)

montana mike said:


> One would think they could fix this after all of these years!!!!


This sort of thing is fixable, but not necessarily cheaply fixable. You would also get all the "environmentalists' coming out of the woodwork claiming that the things that have to be done to the cliff face to keep it from sliding down piece by piece will bring an end to the natural universe.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 19, 2012)

Phil S said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > montana mike said:
> ...


It was in article I read a few years back don't remember where though.


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## gn2276 (Nov 19, 2012)

There is also water over the tracks in 3 places between Seattle and EVR. As of 1030am Seattle had over an inch of rain and at 200pm it was raining very heavy.


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## gn2276 (Nov 19, 2012)

As of 400pm Seattle has had over 2 inchs of rain and there are 10 mud slide between SEA and EVR.


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## jebr (Nov 19, 2012)

Any impact so far on the Empire Builder route?


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 19, 2012)

jebr said:


> Any impact so far on the Empire Builder route?


I would imagine a there are bus bridging SEA to EVR since the Portland section is running tonight.


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## gn2276 (Nov 19, 2012)

The Builder out of SEA was a bus to SPK due to the train being in SEA


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 20, 2012)

gn2276 said:


> The Builder out of SEA was a bus to SPK due to the train being in SEA


That doesn't make any sense, they wouldn't run the Portland section if they had no Seattle section to connect it to. Unless they dead headed the equipment to Portland from Seattle.


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## gn2276 (Nov 20, 2012)

The equipment that would have gone out as train 7(19) is right now sitting on the stub track at King Street Station.


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## Blackwolf (Nov 20, 2012)

gn2276 has a point. According to Status Maps, #8 is currently showing 'Overdue' at Seattle, where-as #28 is currently 1 hour and 28 minutes down after departing Wishram. Either this is going to be a very interesting train to watch (has the EB ever traversed the entire route with only the Portland section??) or the passengers on #28 are going to find themselves treated to an "Amtrak Special" by arriving into Spokane only to be told the train has been cancelled and all passengers are on their own to complete the rest of their trip. Not that something like that has never happened before...


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## jebr (Nov 20, 2012)

Couldn't they do some sort of turnaround with the set coming into Spokane tonight? Could be crazy operationally, but I would think that would be a possibility, considering that the 7 isn't running all that late. Could get on the rails with about a 3 hour delay, I would think.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 20, 2012)

jebr said:


> Couldn't they do some sort of turnaround with the set coming into Spokane tonight? Could be crazy operationally, but I would think that would be a possibility, considering that the 7 isn't running all that late. Could get on the rails with about a 3 hour delay, I would think.


Could work, just put the Seattle bound passengers on the bus the Spokane bound passengers just came in on,then swap Portland sections.It would be an odd set up and I don't know how restocking a train nearing the end of its journey would go.


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## gn2276 (Nov 20, 2012)

The equipment that left PDX is coming back tomrrow and the equipment that is sitting in SEA right now is going to PDX tomrrow. The passengers will eather be bused to SPK or they may ride a very late train out of SEA. I am thinking that they will bus the passengers to SPK and deadhead the train to PDX in the morning maybe as part of the Starlight.


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## gn2276 (Nov 20, 2012)

As far as restocking the train in SPK the commisary will drive over to SPK.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 20, 2012)

Where are you getting this info from exactly. Doesn't make much sense, why run the Portland section at all?


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## EB_OBS (Nov 20, 2012)

The Seattle section of #7(18) is terminating in SPK and will wye, clean and return as #8(19).

The Portland #27 section will run through as usual.

The passengers on #7 will be put onto buses and bussed to their final destinations.

Passengers from Seattle, Edmonds, Everett, Leavenworth, Wenatchee and Euphrata will wait in the lobby in SPK until the equipment is serviced and ready to board and depart SPK.

Right now I'm anticipating at best a 4:30 am departure for #8(19)


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## jebr (Nov 20, 2012)

EB_OBS said:


> The Seattle section of #7(18) is terminating in SPK and will wye, clean and return as #8(19).
> 
> The Portland #27 section will run through as usual.
> 
> ...


Yikes, that would be no fun for those waiting in the station. Hopefully Amtrak offers vouchers or something for that...trying to sleep in a station has to be close to impossible!


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## EB_OBS (Nov 20, 2012)

Yeah it never usually ends up being fun for anyone.


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## CHamilton (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks for the update, EB_OBS. Sounds like no fun for anyone, but at least the EB passengers will get where they need to go. I haven't heard anything about substitute transportation for SEA-VAC passengers, so I cancelled my trip.


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## gn2276 (Nov 20, 2012)

Should be buses to VAC


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## jebr (Nov 20, 2012)

Is the Seattle - Portland route for the Cascades prone to mudslides?


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 20, 2012)

jebr said:


> Is the Seattle - Portland route for the Cascades prone to mudslides?


They do happen from time to time, but not anything like the Seattle - Everett section.


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## gn2276 (Nov 20, 2012)

The only part that really has any trouble is just south of Tacoma.


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## AlanB (Nov 20, 2012)

jebr said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > The Seattle section of #7(18) is terminating in SPK and will wye, clean and return as #8(19).
> ...


It may not be fun, and I know that even I wouldn't be thrilled. But it's better than "sorry, cancelled with no alternative service to get you where you're going."


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## Devil's Advocate (Nov 20, 2012)

George Harris said:


> montana mike said:
> 
> 
> > One would think they could fix this after all of these years!!!!
> ...


The vast majority of environmentalists I've met (we're talking hundreds here) are extremely pro-rail with regard to passenger services. A few were indifferent to rail but I could count the number of staunchly anti-rail environmentalists I've met on one hand. As with any activist group, environmentalists have numerous goals, including some goals which may influence or interfere with other goals. Nonetheless there is no environmentalist group I'm aware of that is singling out passenger trains with a hyper sensitive 48 hour rule. Nor am I aware of any environmental group that is promoting the building of roads and houses in unstable areas. Despite all the nonsense and vitriol that is routinely heaped upon environmentalists I've actually found them to be rather reasonable folks in most respects. Even if they come to a given problem with a preconceived solution they can generally be reasoned with until a compromise can be found. Unfortunately genuine compromise can be hard to come by in an era of excessive prejudice and hyper partisanship.


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## Phil S (Nov 20, 2012)

And it looks like #7 was terminated in SPK. Ouch. Bus ride through the night is not fun for anyone. Me, as a sleeper pax, I'd bail, get some sleep, rent a car or fly the next day.

And, george, how would you fix it? Build a 100-ft high 6-ft thick wall along the 10 or 15 miles of cliff? I doubt "enviromentalists" would be the main obstacle. A cheaper solution would be to relocate the tracks through the upscale houses along the cliff top (including two firends of mine). Again, I doubt "enviromentalists" would be the main obstacle.


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## montana mike (Nov 20, 2012)

I see the EB(#8) is currently almost 4 1/2 hours late in MT--bummer.


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## tomfuller (Nov 20, 2012)

Phil S the EB arrived 28 minutes early in Spokane this morning. The Seattle section arrived early and the Portland section was 12 minutes late in Wishram. No buses were used east to west today in Washington to transport Amtrak passengers.


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## CHamilton (Nov 20, 2012)

All Aboard Washington posted on Facebook:



> No North SOUNDER (Seattle-Everett) nor Seattle-Vancouver Amtrak Cascades train service (bus substitutes) today, due to numerous mudslides. Track may be opened by 1pm tomorrow, depending on the situation.


Here in Seattle, we had record rainfall yesterday. It's not raining at present, but it's clouding up, and another storm system is due this afternoon.


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## CHamilton (Nov 20, 2012)

Press release from WSDOT:



> Amtrak service between Seattle and Everett is scheduled to resume Thursday, Nov.22. When train service is disrupted, Amtrak secures buses to ensure passengers reach their destinations. All trains south of Seattle are running normally.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 20, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Press release from WSDOT:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They say service resumes Thursday but I have feeling the morning train will be a bus.


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## Pam (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm a passenger now on the Seattle bound Empire Builder. Will we be bussed from Spokane to Seattle tonight? Or from Everett to Seattle?


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## jebr (Nov 20, 2012)

Pam said:


> I'm a passenger now on the Seattle bound Empire Builder. Will we be bussed from Spokane to Seattle tonight? Or from Everett to Seattle?


While I'm not sure, I'd suspect Spokane, as Amtrak can't store trains in Everett.

Perhaps there'd be a way to get them to let you take the Cascades up from Portland to Seattle, though with it being the day before Thanksgiving, it's unlikely.


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## zephyr17 (Nov 20, 2012)

jebr said:


> Pam said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a passenger now on the Seattle bound Empire Builder. Will we be bussed from Spokane to Seattle tonight? Or from Everett to Seattle?
> ...


No, Amtrak can't store trains in Everett.

However, when the line is open but still within BNSF's 48 hour embargo of passenger trains following a slide, Amtrak has been known to deadhead the Builder between Seattle and Everett, turning the train normally in Seattle, but boarding and disembarking Seattle passengers in Everett, busing them to and from Seattle.

I heard on the radio that BNSF between Seattle and Everett is open to freight traffic now, so going through to Everett and deadheading to Seattle is at least a possibility.


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## CHamilton (Nov 20, 2012)

zephyr17 said:


> However, when the line is open but still within BNSF's 48 hour embargo of passenger trains following a slide, Amtrak has been known to deadhead the Builder between Seattle and Everett, turning the train normally in Seattle, but boarding and disembarking Seattle passengers in Everett, busing them to and from Seattle.
> 
> I heard on the radio that BNSF between Seattle and Everett is open to freight traffic now, so going through to Everett and deadheading to Seattle is at least a possibility.


That's what I would guess. When a similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago, the passengers were bussed from Everett, but the crew, and even the luggage, went on the train. My SCA groused about that, since it showed how little sense BNSF's rules are, and how little they value Amtrak's employees -- or their own, for that matter.

I am convinced that the whole 48-hour rule was made up by a lawyer somewhere that didn't want to get sued. Which is ironic, since the current setup would never be justifiable in court.


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## CHamilton (Nov 20, 2012)

No passenger train north of Seattle until Thursday



> Fifteen mudslides hit Burlington Northern Santa Fe tracks between Seattle and Everett during recent heavy rain.
> 
> Spokesman Gus Melonas (mel-OWN'-us) says the largest early Tuesday at Everett covered 50 feet of track up to 15 feet deep with mud, rocks and trees.
> 
> Freight trains have been running sporadically. Passenger trains are on hold as a safety precaution. No Amtrak or commuter rail trains will run between Seattle and Everett until 12:30 a.m. Thursday, at the earliest.


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## anir dendroica (Nov 20, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > However, when the line is open but still within BNSF's 48 hour embargo of passenger trains following a slide, Amtrak has been known to deadhead the Builder between Seattle and Everett, turning the train normally in Seattle, but boarding and disembarking Seattle passengers in Everett, busing them to and from Seattle.
> ...


I suspect that the 48-hour rule is at least partially politically motivated on BNSF's part. It seems to only apply to mudslides in the PNW, and not to rockslides or avalanches in the Rockies.

BNSF loses a lot of time and money fighting mudslides between Seattle and Everett, but not enough that it makes economic sense to tackle the expensive task of slope stabilization. Without the 48-hour rule, mudslides would be a pretty minor inconvenience for passenger trains as well. The effect of the rule is to cause major service disruptions and draw public attention to the problem, which garners support for taxpayer-funded solutions. So far the strategy seems to be working...


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## gn2276 (Nov 20, 2012)

The problem with that area that has the mudslides is that the hills next to the track are mostly made of glaciated sand and the base of the hills are made up of a thick clay layer. When there is alot of rain the water goes down through the sand and hits the clay layer and when the water at the clay layer builds up to a point the sand layers just above the clay slide over the track and into the sound. A few years ago when there was a lot of snow in the northern Rockies and snow slide happen BNSF did use the 48-hour rule around Whitefish.


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## zephyr17 (Nov 20, 2012)

Based on posts over at Trainorders.com, it sounds like they moved the Seattle sectiion to Portland and it showed up about 8:30am this morning. If that is true, they'll send the whole train to Spokane as 28 and bus passengers from Seattle section points to Spokane. That way they don't have to wait for 7 and turn it there, like they did yesterday.

But it does mean you are likely going to get a bus ride from Spokane to Seattle, Pam.


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## CHamilton (Nov 20, 2012)

The Seattle Times is reporting a new mudslide (I think) late this afternoon, which sounds like there may be no train service SEA-EVR through Thursday afternoon.

A tweet from @Amtrak_Cascades earlier in the day said that "Alternate transportation will be provided." For the Cascades, this generally means a bus all the way from SEA-VAC. Locals have been lobbying for buses only from SEA-EVR, then train north of there, but apparently that doesn't happen because the bus company Amtrak uses is the same one they use for the Thruway buses. It's a Canadian company and is licensed only for through trips from SEA-VAC.

Passengers on 7 and 8 are generally bused SEA-EVR, however. When I got bustituted a couple of years ago, there was a nonstop bus EVR-SEA, and another that stopped in Edmonds.


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## SubwayNut (Nov 20, 2012)

I took Seattle to Vancouver, BC Amtrak Cascades #516 last March just before a 48 hour Mudslide curfew expired but the tracks had long reopened, when they couldn't let any passengers on the train through the mudslide but wanted it up in Vancouver, BC for a regular trip the next morning. So they took the train up and bused all of us passengers up to Everett. I don't actually know what happened to Edmonds passengers, no announcements were made. They might have been on the train for those coming from the south since the mudslide I believe was between Edmonds and Everett There we boarded the train that arrived on time but had two epic delays, first from a truck that bottomed out at a grade crossing near Mout Vernon and then a freight train that had a stowaway in it at the boarder! We finally arrived in Vancouver at 2am! I chatted with the conductor a bit during the delays who told me he kept getting phone calls from the supervisor for Canadian Border Services at Pacific Central Station that he wasn't happy that is agents were sitting around doing nothing, wanting to know when the train would arrive. The crew did well with touches like turning off the lights so we could get some sleep, and kept the entire train open so we could spread out. I got some sleep across four seats in a car that had been full of Bellingham passengers.

My Blog Post on the Trip


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 21, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> The Seattle Times is reporting a new mudslide (I think) late this afternoon, which sounds like there may be no train service SEA-EVR through Thursday afternoon.
> 
> A tweet from @Amtrak_Cascades earlier in the day said that "Alternate transportation will be provided." For the Cascades, this generally means a bus all the way from SEA-VAC. Locals have been lobbying for buses only from SEA-EVR, then train north of there, but apparently that doesn't happen because the bus company Amtrak uses is the same one they use for the Thruway buses. It's a Canadian company and is licensed only for through trips from SEA-VAC.
> 
> Passengers on 7 and 8 are generally bused SEA-EVR, however. When I got bustituted a couple of years ago, there was a nonstop bus EVR-SEA, and another that stopped in Edmonds.


The article just states that the cancellation include tomorrow too which was already the case anyhow. Seems like a poorly written article to me.


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## gn2276 (Nov 21, 2012)

If there was another slide then the 48 hour clock is set back to zero. it is 48 hours from the last slide.


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## CHamilton (Nov 21, 2012)

Video of one of the mudslides near Edmonds.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/sounder-service-canceled-evening-service-because-s/nS93c/

http://www.kirotv.com/videos/weather/raw-edmonds-slide-blocks-railroad-tracks/vhhWP/

http://www.kirotv.co...ay-later/vhkZ6/


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 21, 2012)

Well guess I get to enjoy the opulent luxury of a bus.


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## jebr (Nov 21, 2012)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> Well guess I get to enjoy the opulent luxury of a bus.


Hey, those new high-speed buses are nice!

http://www.theonion.com/video/obama-replaces-costly-highspeed-rail-plan-with-hig,18473/


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## Linda T (Nov 21, 2012)

What's going on with the Cascades between PDX and SEA? Over on FB a guy's claiming that service was stopped and he was in the process of being bustituted.I can't find anything on Amtrak.com or Twitter Cascades, everything seems to be NORTH of SEA, not south. I take it he's not a happy camper.  I'm assuming it has something to do with the weather and/or slides.

Ron Bonnette on FB wrote [about 11 PM ET],



> Amtrak is obviously unable to operate profitably and is a drain on the US budget. Perhaps they (the US government) should pull ALL funding from Amtrak until they fire all the executives and force them to become a break-even service. They lost all my future business starting now. On what is perhaps one of the biggest travel days of the year, Thanksgiving Day Eve, they knowingly shut down the track between Portland and Seattle so that we have to ride like cattle in a cattle car (bus) and then only offered up a paltry $11.00 refund for our upgraded business class seats for two passengers. I am ANGRY to say the least. BAH, HUMBUG to Amtrak!!!


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## anir dendroica (Nov 21, 2012)

Looks like trains are running between PDX and SEA this morning.



Linda T said:


> What's going on with the Cascades between PDX and SEA? Over on FB a guy's claiming that service was stopped and he was in the process of being bustituted.I can't find anything on Amtrak.com or Twitter Cascades, everything seems to be NORTH of SEA, not south. I take it he's not a happy camper.  I'm assuming it has something to do with the weather and/or slides.
> 
> Ron Bonnette on FB wrote [about 11 PM ET],
> 
> ...


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## CHamilton (Nov 21, 2012)

Linda,

I haven't been able to find anything about problems south of Seattle. Unfortunately, Amtrak and WSDOT have done a poor job of updating their websites. The only information that seems to be being updated is the @Amtrak_Cascades Twitter account, which only lists the disruption north of Seattle.


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## Linda T (Nov 21, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Linda,
> 
> I haven't been able to find anything about problems south of Seattle. Unfortunately, Amtrak and WSDOT have done a poor job of updating their websites. The only information that seems to be being updated is the @Amtrak_Cascades Twitter account, which only lists the disruption north of Seattle.


Thanks, that's what I was finding. Wonder what's up with his post then? Oh well... go figure. This is exactly why I chose not to travel the NW in November -- I got a heads up about mudslide season and chose to travel in September next year instead.


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## montana mike (Nov 21, 2012)

I would assume the eastbound EB that is in MN today (5+ hours late) was delayed due to the mudslides, but what happened to the westbound #7--it is over 4 hours behind schedule in ND today. For just a brief moment the EBs were close to running on schedule--C'es La Vie'.

Glad to see that the folks in WA will finally do something about the slides. One would think after these constant flows of mud, rocks, trees and other debris that there wouldn't be that much left to "slide".


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## zephyr17 (Nov 21, 2012)

montana mike said:


> I would assume the eastbound EB that is in MN today (5+ hours late) was delayed due to the mudslides, but what happened to the westbound #7--it is over 4 hours behind schedule in ND today. For just a brief moment the EBs were close to running on schedule--C'es La Vie'.
> 
> Glad to see that the folks in WA will finally do something about the slides. One would think after these constant flows of mud, rocks, trees and other debris that there wouldn't be that much left to "slide".


The delay was due to mudslides, although somewhat indirectly. 7(17) was turned in Spokane to become 8(19) because of the mudslides. It took a few hours to turn it, so it was like 4 hours down coming out of Spokane.


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## tomfuller (Nov 21, 2012)

Ron sounds like a malcontent. The CS left Sacramento 2:09AM 2+ hours late. It got to K-Falls at 10:02 about 1:40 late.

The Amtrak status says it shoud be 20+ minutes EARLY to Seattle.

Until Ron can tell us what TRAIN he was supposed to be on that was bustituted, I'm guessing he got a ticket for one of the routes that is normally run by bus and was unhappy that he couldn't ride on a Talgo.


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## CHamilton (Nov 21, 2012)

Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_Cascades

Service disruption btwn Seattle & Vancouver, BC extended until Friday, Nov 23 due to additional mudslides. Alt trans will be provided.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 21, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_Cascades
> 
> Service disruption btwn Seattle & Vancouver, BC extended until Friday, Nov 23 due to additional mudslides. Alt trans will be provided.


Will the 513 run as train beyond Seattle? Or is the train set stuck in Vancouver? I wonder.


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## fairviewroad (Nov 21, 2012)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> Will the 513 run as train beyond Seattle? Or is the train set stuck in Vancouver? I wonder.


Amtrak Cascades just tweeted that 513 departed Tukwila 49 minutes late.

So that means it's running south of Seattle today, albeit late.


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## CHamilton (Nov 21, 2012)

No passenger trains north of Seattle until Friday



> No passenger trains will run north of Seattle until Friday because of the danger of more mudslides hitting the tracks south of Everett.
> 
> Amtrak says buses will serve its passengers between Seattle and Vancouver, British Columbia.
> 
> ...


*15 feet!!*


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## Phil S (Nov 21, 2012)

montana mike said:


> Glad to see that the folks in WA will finally do something about the slides. One would think after these constant flows of mud, rocks, trees and other debris that there wouldn't be that much left to "slide".


Yup, it looks like they can at least clear space at the bottom for at least some of the crap to accumulate before spilling over onto the tracks. But a lot of the cliffs are 100 ft high with little space between the cliff and the tracks: 100 ft of glacial mud. If we ever get to the point where there's nothing left to slide it will mean that many hundreds of high-priced Puget-Sound view houses have also landed on the tracks.


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## gn2276 (Nov 21, 2012)

That slide that was 15 feet deep was also 50 feet long.


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## Blackwolf (Nov 22, 2012)

Anything significant south of Seattle going on? Just checked on Status Maps out of curiosity, and as of 10PM #11 is 3 hours and 25 minutes down on the schedule after leaving Eugine. Ouch!! :wacko:


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## gn2276 (Nov 22, 2012)

looks like problems dropping off 2 PV car south of PDX


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## Nathanael (Nov 22, 2012)

Washington State should give serious consideration to finding a new route from Seattle to Everett. (There was actually a mudslide-free route in the 1900s, but crucial parts of it have been converted into the "Burke-Gilman Trail".)


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## Big Green Chauvanist (Nov 22, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Washington State should give serious consideration to finding a new route from Seattle to Everett. (There was actually a mudslide-free route in the 1900s, but crucial parts of it have been converted into the "Burke-Gilman Trail".)


That's wishful thinking. It will never happen. No room for any more tracks and no funding--it would cost multiple billions. Everything is built up between Seattle and Everett--the land is all taken. The only hope is to somehow get a handle on the slides on the already double-tracked water route. Short of that, these issues will continue indefinitely.


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## fairviewroad (Nov 23, 2012)

Amtrak Cascades twitter feed says service between SEA and Everett will be restored "at 9:41 a.m.". Very precise of them.

That means this morning's southbound 513 from VAC should make it through w/o problem since it doesn't pass through

that area until around 10:30. (It left VAC on time this morning).

The northbound 510 is listed as a Service Disruption. Presumably if the equipment is in SEA they could still run the train

with a 90-minute delay. Not sure what they have planned. If they don't run it up to VAC then this evening's s/b train from

VAC would probably be canceled.

The 9:41 a.m. opening also means this morning's inbound Empire Builder should make it through with no more than

a slight delay.


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## CHamilton (Nov 23, 2012)

That's good news. I've been hearing train horns for the last couple of hours, so the freights are already running. (I generally only hear the horns when it's raining, since I live across town from the tracks. Yes, for you folks who aren't in Seattle -- it's raining again.)


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## CHamilton (Nov 23, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> The northbound 510 is listed as a Service Disruption. Presumably if the equipment is in SEA they could still run the train
> 
> with a 90-minute delay


The latest tweet has good news and bad news.



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_Cascades
> 
> Cascades service 510 to Vancouver now 38 mins late departing in Stanwood - will be delayed further due to mechanical problem.


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## fairviewroad (Nov 23, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > The northbound 510 is listed as a Service Disruption. Presumably if the equipment is in SEA they could still run the train
> ...


Looks like 510 is being annulled in Bellingham with a bus to VAC, and this evening's 517 VAC-SEA is being replaced by buses. But mudslides

aren't the culprit this time...it's a mechanical problem. Rough week for the northern end of the Cascades line. Fortunately most of the service

from SEA-south this week seems to have run OK, except for some weather delays on Monday.

The overnight non-stop "red-eye" from SEA-to-PDX on Wednesday night departed SEA on time and arrived into PDX 37 minutes early at 3:37 A.M.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 23, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > fairviewroad said:
> ...


I wonder what train set they are using? The Mt. Hood was having break issues yesterday, apparently the brake on the bistro was sticking and you could smell burning break pad. We stopped for about 10 minutes outside of Tukwila and they seemed to have fixed it.


----------



## CHamilton (Nov 23, 2012)

Mudslide cancels Sounder service again



> EVERETT -- Another mudslide cancelled Sounder train service scheduled for Friday between Everett and Seattle.
> 
> Barring more slides, transit officials expect regular Northline Sounder service to resume Monday.


This was published today at 11:27 am, but it's unclear whether it refers to another new slide, or if it's just reiterating old news.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 23, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Mudslide cancels Sounder service again
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing from the Amtrak Cascades Twitter, Sound Transit website states the cancellation is due a slide Wednesday morning. The status map also doesn't show 516 as a service disruption which it usually does if it will be truncated in Seattle. The Empire Builder also departed Seattle on time this evening as well.


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## EB_OBS (Nov 24, 2012)

As of right now, the moratorium, between Seattle and Everett, WA, is extended 'til 6:40PM PT, 25 Nov.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 24, 2012)

EB_OBS said:


> As of right now, the moratorium, between Seattle and Everett, WA, is extended 'til 6:40PM PT, 25 Nov.


Well that didn't take long. The forecast shows the rain tapering off, hopefully I'll get lucky and not get stuck on a bus Monday evening. Today's 516 just barely made it through tonight.


----------



## CHamilton (Nov 24, 2012)

And...



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_Cascades
> 
> Train 502 canceled due to engine problem. Passengers transferred to replacement bus.


There seem to have been a lot of engine problems recently.


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## Blackwolf (Nov 24, 2012)

Oy, no kidding. California has been doing an extensive rebuild program with their F59's over the past year or so. It sounds like Oregon and Washington need to do the same with theirs too.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 24, 2012)

Interesting looks like they are doing a bus bridge between Seattle and Everette instead.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 24, 2012)

Interesting looks like a bus bridge for 516/513 today but a complete bustitute for 510/517.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 25, 2012)

Per the Cascades twitter

*Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades* 

Amtrak Cascades trains operating normally, with no significant delays.


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## CHamilton (Nov 27, 2012)

Oh, good grief. No rain today, but we get this.



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_Cascades
> 
> Train 510, Seattle to Vancouver, BC is cancelled due to equipment problems. Alternate transportation will be provided.


----------



## Blackwolf (Nov 27, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Oh, good grief. No rain today, but we get this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any idea if the "equipment problems" are due to locomotive or trainset issues? Third such trouble in a week, isn't it?


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha (Nov 27, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, good grief. No rain today, but we get this.
> ...


When I was the Mt.Hood trainset last week they were having brake problems. I think they said the brake on the bistro was sticking.


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## CHamilton (Nov 27, 2012)

Sigh. At this rate, it will be newsworthy if they manage to run a train, although this is just the return trip of this morning's cancelled 510.



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_Cascades
> 
> Train 517, Vancouver, BC to Seattle is cancelled. Alternate transportation will be provided.


----------



## CHamilton (Nov 28, 2012)

This is really getting tiresome.



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_Cascades
> 
> Train 513 equipment related disruption between Vancouver, BC & Seattle continues. Repairs underway.


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## Blackwolf (Nov 28, 2012)

Out of curiosity, how much water is being forecast to fall from the sky in the PNW this week? Just wondering how many more slides are possible, considering that the string of storms coming in are causing Northern California to freak out. As much as 20 inches of rain forecast in the Feather River Canyon between today (Wednesday) and Sunday!


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## CHamilton (Nov 28, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> Out of curiosity, how much water is being forecast to fall from the sky in the PNW this week?


We're going to get rain, but it sounds like the major storms will be further south.



> Series of Strong Storms Will Bring Prolonged Period of Rain to Parts of West Coast
> Parts of the West Coast will experience a very prolonged wet period beginning on Wednesday, as a series of strong storms bring rain and mountain snow to the region, particularly northern California and southern Oregon, through the weekend. Rainfall amounts of 6-12 inches are forecast, along with wind gusts as high as 70 mph along the coast. Flooding is possible across the region.


----------



## CHamilton (Nov 28, 2012)

Okay, finally some good news.



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_CascadesTrain 513 service Vancouver, BC to Seattle restored after equipment problem. Train departed Vancouver 1hr, 48minutes late.


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## winterskigirl (Nov 29, 2012)

Here's an article from the Everett Herald on the BNSF mudslide zone. No easy fix. Cost's $$$

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20121128/NEWS01/711289932#Mudslides-blocking-trains


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## Jacob Goes By Jack (Nov 30, 2012)

@Blackwolf - I'm taking the southbound Coast Starlight from Seattle to the East Bay on Saturday night which will put me right in the thick of one of the storms in far northern CA... do mudslides cause disruptions in the mountainous parts of that route during rains like this? What do you think is the chance it'll be canceled and I'll be bussed from somewhere?


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## zephyr17 (Nov 30, 2012)

Sacramento River Canyon between Dunsmuir and Redding sometimes has problems, but nothing near as often as BNSF between Seattle and Everett.


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## Phil S (Nov 30, 2012)

winterskigirl said:


> Here's an article from the Everett Herald on the BNSF mudslide zone. No easy fix. Cost's $$$
> 
> http://www.heraldnet...blocking-trains


Thanks for the link. Still makes no sense to me. Storm water runoff should go into storm drains that channel the water elsewhere. Did the counties not require that a stormdrain system be built? Or is there one in place and it just dumps water onto the cliffs? If so this is a failure by govt to properly regulate development, caused perhaps by inadequate funding (ie. tax cuts). But it's be nice to have some actual info.


----------



## Blackwolf (Nov 30, 2012)

Jacob Goes By Jack said:


> @Blackwolf - I'm taking the southbound Coast Starlight from Seattle to the East Bay on Saturday night which will put me right in the thick of one of the storms in far northern CA... do mudslides cause disruptions in the mountainous parts of that route during rains like this? What do you think is the chance it'll be canceled and I'll be bussed from somewhere?


All I can offer for real advice is to be flexible, but enjoy your trip all the same. Yes, that is right about the time the strongest of these three major storms is forecast to be impacting Southern Oregon and Northern California.

IF a problem occurred, my guess for a likely candidate would be in the Cascade region. There are numerous slide areas there which have impacted the Coast Starlight route in years past. It really is a crapshoot to try and say what may happen because there are so many variables. In a contrast to mudslides, there are also flood warnings in effect for all of NorCal from the Bay Area north. It's winter-time, and contrary to popular belief, we do get all four seasons in good ol' Sunny California!


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## Jacob Goes By Jack (Nov 30, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> IF a problem occurred, my guess for a likely candidate would be in the Cascade region.


Where do you mean by the Cascade region? Just WA/OR/northern CA in general, or are you talking about a more specific area?


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## Nathanael (Nov 30, 2012)

Phil S said:


> winterskigirl said:
> 
> 
> > Here's an article from the Everett Herald on the BNSF mudslide zone. No easy fix. Cost's $$$
> ...


Remember, these were rural counties when a lot of the development was done, and the stormwater management laws only started coming into effect in the 1970s in most parts of the country, and later in many. I don't have the facts, but it's perfectly possible the counties didn't get around to regulating runoff until well after development had caused the problems.


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## zephyr17 (Nov 30, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Phil S said:
> 
> 
> > winterskigirl said:
> ...


The problem areas, like around Shilsole and Mukilteo, were pretty much developed by the 1970s.


----------



## Phil S (Nov 30, 2012)

zephyr17 said:


> Nathanael said:
> 
> 
> > Phil S said:
> ...


Google maps shows that the vast majority of the houses are on multi-acre lots extending from the road almost to the cliffedges. The houses are all right near the roads. I recall my friends' house had a gravel driveway maybe 70-80 ft long. My guess is that there isn't s single stormdrain anywhere along the whole cliff system, at least not for the rersidential areas. I Googled King County and there are no storm water system maps. They now have a stormwater management plan, as of 2012, which calls for at least having the information collected in the next 3 years.The plan nowhere mentions the word "rail" of "cliff".

A better bet for info looks like the following: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/rail/slidemanagement/ If you haven;t looked at the site and are interested in this issue, it's worth a peek. I'll e-mail Melanie, the listed contact person, see if I can get some more info. But it really doesn't seem that anything is being done to even determine if the topside development is indeed part of the problem.


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## EB_OBS (Dec 1, 2012)

Well there's a brand new mud-slide / blocking event at MP 29.3 BN Scenic Sub, near Mukilteo.

48 hour moratorium in effect until 10:24PM 12/2/12.

Sorry folks.


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## CHamilton (Dec 1, 2012)

As EB_OBS said:



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_CascadesAmtrak Cascades train 513 & 510 Replaced By Bus Service Vancouver BC - Seattle.


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## CHamilton (Dec 1, 2012)

Once again, there's some poor communication. The Amtrak_Cascades Twitter account posted earlier this afternoon



> 3:20pm Amtrak Cascades trains operating normally, with no significant delays.


but an AP story on the Seattle Times website says



> A Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway spokesman says runs of passenger trains between Seattle and Everett have been halted because of mudslides.
> Spokesman Gus Melonas says passenger train runs will be on pause until Monday, unless conditions improve.
> 
> Heavy rain soaked the Puget Sound region on Friday and Saturday, pushing mud, rocks and debris onto track sensors.
> ...


But there's nothing on the Sound Transit website that I can find. With communication like this, train riders really have no idea what's going on.


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 2, 2012)

Well, this is clear, at least. Of course, there are no passenger trains on that line at 4:00am...



> Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_CascadesService between Seattle & Everett suspended until 4:00am 12/5/12 due to mudslide. Alternate transportation will be provided.


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 2, 2012)

Did the Cascades tweet get the date wrong?

More Seattle-Everett passenger train runs halted



> Runs of passenger trains between Seattle and Everett will be canceled until Tuesday morning after more mudslides fell this weekend, a Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway spokesman said.
> Closing the tracks all say Monday marks at least the seventh day of closures for Amtrak and Sound Transit trains along this corridor since Thanksgiving, spokesman Gus Melonas said. Passenger train service is now scheduled to restart at 4 a.m. Tuesday, he said.
> 
> Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway had estimated the closure of tracks to Amtrak and Sound Transit trains would end on Monday, but more mudslide damaged occurred overnight Saturday as heavy rain soaked the Puget Sound region, pushing mud, rocks, trees and debris onto the tracks.
> ...


----------



## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 2, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Did the Cascades tweet get the date wrong?
> 
> More Seattle-Everett passenger train runs halted
> 
> ...


So they don't give a darn about their crews then.


----------



## Blackwolf (Dec 2, 2012)

*Frustration*. Word of the season. Again.


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## CHamilton (Dec 2, 2012)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> So they don't give a darn about their crews then.


An SCA I had on the EB grumbled about that when passengers from train 7 were bussed from Everett to Seattle, but the crew stayed on the train.


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## josuelowe (Dec 2, 2012)

I have a question regarding the northwest mudslide season. In addition to the problems north of Seattle, there have been problems from time to time along Puget Sound south of Pt. Defiance. With the completion of the Sounder to Lakewood, WA, would Amtrak reroute their trains over the new Sounder line and Tacoma Rail tracks through Dupont if there were again problems with mudslides in this area?


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 3, 2012)

That's odd the status map shows 516 as operating tonight, left MVW 11 minutes late and the Amtrak status page shows 516 7 minutes late out of Bellingham.


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## CHamilton (Dec 3, 2012)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> That's odd the status map shows 516 as operating tonight, left MVW 11 minutes late and the Amtrak status page shows 516 7 minutes late out of Bellingham.


I understand that they were running the train as far as Everett, then busing from there to Seattle.


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## anir dendroica (Dec 3, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > So they don't give a darn about their crews then.
> ...


Mud, (small) rocks, and trees are fairly forgiving compared to other things that sometimes collide with trains (semi trucks come to mind). I have to assume that at slow speed (~20 mph through slide zones?) the risk to life and limb from even a direct slide impact is fairly low for anyone on a train. Plenty of potential for equipment damage though.

Mark


----------



## TimePeace (Dec 3, 2012)

jebr said:


> NorthCoastHiawatha said:
> 
> 
> > Well guess I get to enjoy the opulent luxury of a bus.
> ...


Hahahahah!


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 4, 2012)

Amtrak, too, I assume. Sigh.



> Slide cancels Sounder service to Mukilteo, Everett through ThursdayPosted on December 4, 2012 at 3:38 PM
> 
> Northline Sounder service to Mukilteo and Everett is canceled through Thursday morning due to a mudslide that occurred before noon Tuesday between Edmonds and Mukilteo.
> 
> ...


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 4, 2012)

The state and BNSF hope a $16 million federal grant will help ease mudslides along the train tracks between Everett and Seattle. (WSDOT image)



> Temporary fix but no solution in sight for Sounder's mudslide disruptionsWith Sound Transit and Amtrak forced to cancel service again between Seattle and Everett because of mudslides, state officials say they're doing all they can to slow the frequent slides. Despite millions of dollars, they admit there's only so much they can do.
> 
> The latest slide comes just two weeks after mudslides covered the tracks in a number of places, halting passenger service for the entire Thanksgiving week.
> 
> ...


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 17, 2012)

Not the usual location, south of Seattle/Tacoma this time. So the Cascades from SEA-PDX and the CS will be affected through, I assume, at least Tuesday night.



> Slide hits BNSF tracks in Nisqually areaOLYMPIA, Wash. —
> 
> Heavy rain and winds caused a mudslide that hit Burlington Northern Santa Fe tracks about 1:30 a.m. Monday in the Nisqually area north of Olympia.
> 
> ...the track has been cleared for freight trains, but there's a 48-hour safety moratorium for Amtrak trains between Olympia and Tacoma.


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## CHamilton (Dec 17, 2012)

Yep, confirmed on Twitter. Assume that "until December 19" means that trains will be running Wednesday morning, but it's not clear.



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Amtrak Cascades service between Seattle and Portland disrupted until December 19 due to mudslide. Alternate transportation will be provided


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## Michigan Mom (Dec 17, 2012)

We had the bustitution in both directions from Everett-Seattle last winter. it isn't bad at all, 45 min bus ride.


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## CHamilton (Dec 17, 2012)

More from Facebook.



> *All Aboard Washington*
> 
> *No Amtrak service between Seattle and Portland for today and tomorrow, due to a mudslide near the Nisqually area. Buses will substitute for service. Also trains 510 and 517 will not operate today, due to a PREPLANNED trackwork (and not a mudslide). Buses will provide service there too.*


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## CHamilton (Dec 17, 2012)

> All Aboard WashingtonOne report says passengers for train 11 - Coast Starlight - are only being bused as far as Olympia and then put on the train (equipment deadheading from Seattle). Are Cascades passengers be afforded the same opportunity or is Amtrak busing all the way to Portland?


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## fairviewroad (Dec 17, 2012)

At least Sounder trains aren't affected by this one.


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## CHamilton (Dec 17, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> At least Sounder trains aren't affected by this one.


Well, it looks like Sounder North gets its very own mudslide ... so the EB and Cascades North are affected too.



> 2nd mudslide hits BNSF tracks in W. WashingtonHeavy rains and winds caused two mudslides Monday on Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad tracks in Western Washington.
> 
> The first at 1:30 a.m. covered tracks with mud, rocks and trees in the Nisqually area north of Olympia.
> 
> ...


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 17, 2012)

A trifecta.



> Mudslide derails BNSF train in W. WashingtonA mudslide has derailed a Burlington Northern Santa Fe freight train just south of Everett.
> 
> BNSF spokesman Gus Melonas says the slide came off a 100-foot slope and struck the train at about 1:30 p.m. Monday, in the same area where a slide covered the tracks earlier in the day. Seven cars were derailed. They were carrying various types of freight, including small packages of disinfectant and chemicals used in cleaning supplies and fertilizer.
> 
> ...


----------



## EB_OBS (Dec 17, 2012)

#7(16) is terminating in SPK in the morning and will be turning back as #8(17). The #28 and #27 trains will operate as normal. Unfortunately, the #28 will still need to sit and wait for #7s equipment to be wyed and serviced. Probably looking at a departure eastbound around 5:00 - 5:30am.


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## winterskigirl (Dec 17, 2012)

I was on train # 517 southbound to Seattle last night & glad we weren't derailed.


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## CHamilton (Dec 18, 2012)

winterskigirl said:


> I was on train # 517 southbound to Seattle last night & glad we weren't derailed.


Yes, you were lucky. This is the first time I've heard about an actual derailment due to a mudslide. Of course, 517 wasn't running today due to trackwork anyway.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 18, 2012)

Argh, the massive damage! Not good at all! At least it was a freight train, I guess.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 18, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> winterskigirl said:
> 
> 
> > I was on train # 517 southbound to Seattle last night & glad we weren't derailed.
> ...


...and they will just use that as an excuse to extend the 48 hour rule to 72 sarcasm of course.


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## CHamilton (Dec 18, 2012)

Here are some pictures.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Freight-train-derails-in-Everett-183859751.html

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Mudslide-derails-BNSF-train-south-of-Everett-183865281.html

http://q13fox.com/2012/12/17/mudslide-derails-train-south-of-everett/

http://heraldnet.com/article/20121217/NEWS01/712179876#Freight-train-cars-derail-in-Everett


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## Trogdor (Dec 18, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Here are some pictures.
> 
> http://www.komonews....-183859751.html


This link has a video of the actual derailment taking place.

Something to think about for those that whine about passenger train moratoriums.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 18, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Something to think about for those that whine about passenger train moratoriums.


Can we see a time-lapse video of the next 48 hours at that same location? Or are you suggesting that

the line simply be shut down when heavy rain is in the forecast? The latter would actually make more

sense, in a way, than arbitrarily shutting down a line once the danger is past.


----------



## PRR 60 (Dec 18, 2012)

fairviewroad said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > Something to think about for those that whine about passenger train moratoriums.
> ...


Once a mudslide occurs, the danger is not past. The occurrence of the mudslide indicates that the soil moisture content has reached the point where the slopes are unstable. Mudslides in other areas are considered a greater likelihood because one has has already occurred. Waiting 48 hours after the last mudslide, admittedly an arbitrary duration but one based on a degree of geotechnical science, provides some assurance that the soil has dried and the slopes have re-stabilized.


----------



## zephyr17 (Dec 18, 2012)

Rant warning.

This slide zone in Mukilteo is about 6 miles from where I am sitting right now. It has always been a problem but the last two years have been ridiculous. EVERY time we get a heavy rain the last couple of years that thing slips. And it is not like we don't get heavy rain here in the winter, so the thing sliding really shouldn't be any kind of surprise.

BNSF deals with it by clearing it and moving on. Except for this time when it derailed a train, the let it slide and clear it approach apparently doesn't interfere with their freight movement excessively or they would have invested in a fix themselves.

However, it is providing a big, fat target for local talk show hosts and politicians railing against Sound Transit. They maintain that it has a massive per passenger trip subsidy (don't recall what it is, think I have heard up to $30) and then it _doesn't even run_. There is a investment plan with public money to fix/mitigate it, but they need to get it underway. It always makes the local news.

Of course, the fact I am taking the Empire Builder east tomorrow and don't want to bustituted to Spokane doesn't have anything to do with my feelings on the subject


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 18, 2012)

Ditto on the rant. It seems like everyone knows it should be fixed, but there's a game of chicken going on regarding who will pay:

-- the property owners above the tracks who've been removing trees, thus causing the bluffs to become unstable after more than a hundred years.

-- the feds, who aren't in a hurry to throw money at this because it isn't sexy.

-- the state, which just barely manages to fund a little bit of passenger rail, but is much more interested in mega-highway projects like the Seattle tunnel and the Columbia River Crossing.

-- the railroad, which figures if they continue doing nothing, they'll get the above stakeholders to cough up to fix *their* RoW.

Right now, BNSF holds all the cards, except maybe that they want approval for expanded capacity to export coal. What a mess.


----------



## fairviewroad (Dec 18, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> fairviewroad said:
> 
> 
> > Trogdor said:
> ...


Good gracious, if dry soil is a pre-requisite for running trains through this area then you may as well shut down the tracks from October through April each year.


----------



## anir dendroica (Dec 18, 2012)

Crazy coincidence that someone had a video camera pointed right at the slide zone before it started moving. Makes for good news footage.

I wonder if it would work to dynamite the trouble spots during saturated conditions, kind of like they do with avalanches at ski resorts. Trigger the slides, clean up the mud, then let the trains roll...


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## CHamilton (Dec 18, 2012)

And the chances for getting state money to do something about the mudslides just got dimmer.



> Gregoire proposes new fuel tax to fund educationOLYMPIA, Wash. — Gov. Chris Gregoire proposed higher taxes on gas, soda, candy and gum Tuesday in order to avoid more government cuts and to help fund education in response to a court order.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


----------



## Nathanael (Dec 18, 2012)

The Nisqually area slides are fairly rare. The Everett-Seattle slides happen waaaay too often and that area is only going to get worse with sea level rise...


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## CHamilton (Dec 18, 2012)

> Freight train traffic resumes after WA derailmentFreight train traffic has resumed on a stretch of rail south of Everett, Wash., that was hit by a mudslide that derailed a freight train. However, a fresh mudslide has extended a moratorium on passenger train traffic in the area.
> 
> Burlington Northern Santa Fe spokesman Gus Melonas says freight traffic restarted late Tuesday afternoon after crews worked through the night to rerail one of the derailed freight cars.
> 
> ...


----------



## CHamilton (Dec 18, 2012)

anir dendroica said:


> Crazy coincidence that someone had a video camera pointed right at the slide zone before it started moving. Makes for good news footage.


KING5 TV thought so. http://www.king5.com/news/WATCH-Massive-mudslide-derailing-train-captured-in-video-184039221.html


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## CHamilton (Dec 19, 2012)

By the way, the reason this will cost so much to fix is that there are 63 separate areas prone to slides. See the map at http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/frustrated-with-mudslides-along-amtrak.html . And another thing? Those areas of the rail line that run along Puget Sound have other problems. http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2019930994_tides19m.html


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## Big Green Chauvanist (Dec 19, 2012)

20/20 hindsight: Would have been so much better to have built the line inland, when it could have easily been done. The area was very sparsely populated in the 1890's.


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## CHamilton (Dec 19, 2012)

Big Green Chauvanist said:


> 20/20 hindsight: Would have been so much better to have built the line inland, when it could have easily been done. The area was very sparsely populated in the 1890's.


There were inland lines. One was the SP&S line, now the Burke-Gilman Trail. Another was an interurban line, described here: http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&File_Id=2667 Both are gone now. For more information, see the book Orphan Road: The Railroad Comes to Seattle, 1853-1911.


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## Big Green Chauvanist (Dec 19, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Big Green Chauvanist said:
> 
> 
> > 20/20 hindsight: Would have been so much better to have built the line inland, when it could have easily been done. The area was very sparsely populated in the 1890's.
> ...


Correct. But I mean for the Great Northern transcontinental mainline--double track, wide right of way, roughly where I-5 Everett to Seattle is now, avoiding waterways Puget Sound, Lake Union and Lake Washington.


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## zephyr17 (Dec 19, 2012)

Right now I am waiting in the Everett station and the Seattle buses came in so it is a zoo in here. They announced that there was another slide this afternoon and the train is holding south of Edmonds while BNSF clears the debris and checks the tracks. At this time they are still expecting to run it up here.

Guess what, we had some more heavy rain today.


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## CHamilton (Dec 19, 2012)

zephyr17 said:


> Right now I am waiting in the Everett station and the Seattle buses came in so it is a zoo in here. They announced that there was another slide this afternoon and the train is holding south of Edmonds while BNSF clears the debris and checks the tracks. At this time they are still expecting to run it up here.
> 
> Guess what, we had some more heavy rain today.


Yep. Even the Seattle Times' headline writers are getting tired of this.


> Another day, another mudslide on BNSF tracks; passenger service canceled between Seattle and EverettA mudslide three miles south of Mukilteo has caused cancellation of Sounder Northline commuter trains and Amtrak service through at least Friday morning.
> 
> More than 30 mudslides have hit the tracks between Seattle and Everett since Thanksgiving, BNSF spokesman Gus Melonas told the Associated Press.
> 
> ...


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 19, 2012)

....and the rain just continues, my guess is there will be another slide to extend the cancellation through the weekend. To top that off my house is leaking.


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## CHamilton (Dec 19, 2012)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> ....and the rain just continues, my guess is there will be another slide to extend the cancellation through the weekend. To top that off my house is leaking.


NCH, that is a total drag. It's pouring down here, too, but at least I'm staying dry. What do you say we all go out and push the clouds toward Canada or something?


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## CHamilton (Dec 19, 2012)

> Monday's high tide hits all-time recordHe knew the tide was high when it swamped neighborhoods and businesses around Puget Sound Monday, but one coastal engineer had no idea he was witnessing history.
> 
> Engineer David Michalson of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers decided to check out the statistics on the high tide that was whipped up by wind and other conditions until it topped bulkheads around the area and almost topped the Ballard Locks.
> 
> ...


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## EB_OBS (Dec 19, 2012)

The Empire Builder is currently still holding south of the slide area. This time there are apparantly several large trees in the mix across the tracks. It needs to be cleared before the train can get through, in addition the freight traffic is building up too.


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## Nathanael (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks for the link to the WSDOT blog with the slide zone map. Some notes on that:

-- of the 10 slide zones between Tacoma and Nisqually, I suspect some will be bypassed by the Pt Defiance Bypass (build it already!!!) but I don't know; I wish that were more detailed. How many will remain a problem?

-- the 8 slide zones south of Nisqually seem like a manageable problem, though again I'd love more detail.

-- in contrast Seattle to Everett seems completely and utterly hopeless -- 35 slide zones *and* the sea is rising over it? Service to Canada is going to need a new inland route, period. Start planning now.


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## CHamilton (Dec 19, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Thanks for the link to the WSDOT blog with the slide zone map. Some notes on that:
> 
> -- of the 10 slide zones between Tacoma and Nisqually, I suspect some will be bypassed by the Pt Defiance Bypass (build it already!!!) but I don't know; I wish that were more detailed. How many will remain a problem?


I wondered about that myself, but haven't heard anything for sure. I assume that you are correct; some of them are likely to be bypassed.



Nathanael said:


> -- the 8 slide zones south of Nisqually seem like a manageable problem, though again I'd love more detail.
> 
> -- in contrast Seattle to Everett seems completely and utterly hopeless -- 35 slide zones *and* the sea is rising over it? Service to Canada is going to need a new inland route, period. Start planning now.


Again, yes, you're right. But as has been previously pointed out, most of the previous RoWs are gone, and it will cost big bucks to replace them, and no one wants to pay the cost.


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## AferVentus (Dec 19, 2012)

We are in the everett station, too. I hope they get it cleared, too. It better not be cancelled like a couple winters back. Granted none of this is their fault. *sigh*


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## cirdan (Dec 20, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Again, yes, you're right. But as has been previously pointed out, most of the previous RoWs are gone, and it will cost big bucks to replace them, and no one wants to pay the cost.


Correction, nobody wants to pay the costs as long as they think somebody else might pick them up if they drag their feet enough.


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## CHamilton (Dec 20, 2012)

Apparently, neither Amtrak nor BNSF are in the train business.



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Cascades Train 500 is now terminated in Portland due to mechanical problem - Replacement Buses will operate Portland to Seattle.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 20, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Apparently, neither Amtrak nor BNSF are in the train business.
> 
> 
> 
> > *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Cascades Train 500 is now terminated in Portland due to mechanical problem - Replacement Buses will operate Portland to Seattle.


Whats with the increase in mechanical problems lately? Ive noticed quite a number of them in the last month or so.


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## CHamilton (Dec 20, 2012)

> Mudslides Up Close
> This week has been a miserable one for trains in the Seattle area. After two Monday mudslides, one near Nisqually and one near Everett, on Tuesday not a single Amtrak train arrived or departed King Street Station. Another mudslide yesterday has put North Sounder and Amtrak off until at least Friday. Mudslide prevention projects are still on the way thanks to stimulus dollars, but at this point these efforts seem meager compared to the enormity of the problem. At least 30 mudslides have occurred just since Thanksgiving.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 20, 2012)

Not just affecting trains now, I saw a report that 41 miles of Highway 101 and 6 miles of SR 106 are closed due to mudslides, downed trees, and apparently some ferry sailings were cancelled yesterday too. We really need some dry weather right about now.


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## CHamilton (Dec 20, 2012)

Well, that's promising. At least they're not assuming that the world will end on 12/21. :wacko:



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*
> 
> Service disruption extended between Seattle & Everett until 12/22/12 -9:40am additional mudslides. Replacement buses will be operate.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 20, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Well, that's promising. At least they're not assuming that the world will end on 12/21. :wacko:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and i'm guessing additional mudslides will close it through Christmas.


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## George Harris (Dec 20, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> > Monday's high tide hits all-time recordHe knew the tide was high when it swamped neighborhoods and businesses around Puget Sound Monday, but one coastal engineer had no idea he was witnessing history.
> >
> > Engineer David Michalson of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers decided to check out the statistics on the high tide that was whipped up by wind and other conditions until it topped bulkheads around the area and almost topped the Ballard Locks.
> >
> > ...


First: From the Seattle Times:



> Monday's Seattle high tide, 14.51 feet, topped the previous record, 14.49 feet, set in January 1983, Rufo-Hill said.


The way I learned arithmatic, 14.51-14.49=0.02, so the high tied exceeded the previous record set 29 years ago by 0.02 feet. That is less than one inch. In fact, that is 1/4 inch. How can they even measure a *TIDE *with that level of precision? Then from apparently erroneous calculation they project a sea level rise of "8 inches every 100 years"? Be still my beating heart. Pardon me for being skeptical.

As to the guy that is shocked to be pumping water out due to high tide when the high tide is essentially the same as the record set 30 years ago, I can only say, you can't cure stupid. I do not understand these people that do not make sure they have a couple of feet at least of freeboard above the known high tides and waves.


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## CHamilton (Dec 20, 2012)

> Mudslides plague railroad tracks near MukilteoMUKILTEO, Wash. — Mudslides have been hitting the railroad tracks along Puget Sound between Mukilteo and Everett almost faster than Burlington Northern Santa Fe can clean them up.
> 
> Spokesman Gus Melonas (mel-OWN'-us) says after three slides overnight, there were six more Thursday morning. The slides were as big as 6 feet deep and 30 feet wide and carried 100-foot trees.
> 
> ...


In case you were wondering, Mukilteo is said to mean "good camping ground." Good place for trains, not so much.


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## Phil S (Dec 20, 2012)

George Harris said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > > Monday's high tide hits all-time recordHe knew the tide was high when it swamped neighborhoods and businesses around Puget Sound Monday, but one coastal engineer had no idea he was witnessing history.
> ...


George - You raise good points but the answers may not be quite what you think. The instruments we have today are quite capable of measuring tides with both precision and accuracy of 1/4 inch. It takes some averaging and other statistical analysis but it can be done, and is done, and that sort of analysis of the environmental analysis underlies all manner of construction projects -- bridges, tunnels, docks, channel improvements, etc etc.

The more difficult problem is keeping the media under control. They don't understand about either precision or accuracy,and even less about uncertainty, and they have zero interest in learning. Those quotes of two sigificant digits after the decimal point need to be qualified but never will be in the mainstream media.

As for the predictions of 8"/yr , which are probably way low, these are based on statustical analysis of long-term data from all over the United States and, indeed, all over the globe. Before you go discounting these predicitons, maybe you should learn more about how they're done? With your engineering background you could likely help people do the analysis better. Seems like a much better us of your time to contribute to at least indentifying the problems, and maybe even solving them, then sittiing arround denying that sealevel is raising dangerously.


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## CHamilton (Dec 21, 2012)

Pictures of today's (12/20) mudslides.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Fallen-trees-mudslides-close-highways-near-Hood-Canal-184291241.html

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/another-mudslide-halts-passenger-rail-traffic-betw/nTb8X/


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Dec 21, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Pictures of today's (12/20) mudslides.
> 
> http://www.komonews....-184291241.html
> 
> http://www.kirotv.co...fic-betw/nTb8X/


They don't look that bad, one doesn't even cover the outboard track.


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## johnny.menhennet (Dec 21, 2012)

I think I saw something somewhere earlier in the thread about how a pax train was allowed to operate on the outer track in one of the incidents after a small slide with little impact. It may be possible that one slide not covering both could allows for some pax train operation, even at reduced speed. I would love to see that...


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## Nathanael (Dec 21, 2012)

George Harris said:


> The way I learned arithmatic, 14.51-14.49=0.02, so the high tied exceeded the previous record set 29 years ago by 0.02 feet. That is less than one inch. In fact, that is 1/4 inch. How can they even measure a *TIDE *with that level of precision?


Using measurement devices. Perhaps you could consider doing some research; the precision of sea level measurement is actually very good and has been for decades.


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## Trogdor (Dec 21, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> I think I saw something somewhere earlier in the thread about how a pax train was allowed to operate on the outer track in one of the incidents after a small slide with little impact. It may be possible that one slide not covering both could allows for some pax train operation, even at reduced speed. I would love to see that...


It is true. If a small slide doesn't cover both tracks, the outer track is not embargoed for passenger train operation.


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## CHamilton (Dec 21, 2012)

Let me get this straight. A bunch of trains aren't running due to mudslides, but they still can't find enough equipment to operate the runs they have??



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Train 504, Eugene to Portland, is cancelled due to an equipment issue. Alternate transportation will be provided.


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## fairviewroad (Dec 21, 2012)

I assume that's the same engine that crapped out in PDX on 500 yesterday morning, leading to yesterday's 507 being

canceled, which presumably would have formed this morning's 504 out of Eugene. But yeah, you'd think there'd be a spare

engine sitting around given all the other cancellations.


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## George Harris (Dec 21, 2012)

I don't question climate change as such. I question a lot of the current fads and even more the proposed fixes. I also question whether the activities of mankind are as big a factor as is generally thought. I also was around to remember the 1970's panics about the earth cooling off due to the actions of man. A lot of the same actions by man were in the proposed solutions then as now.

The mudslide issues are much more in the nature of needing a short term action. If sea level rise is truly real, then the railroad gets raised. As far as they are concerned that is the summation of the action, and it is well in the future in comparison to slope stabilization.

Has anyone going around waving their arms about global warming and sea level rise considered the effect of additonal water in the atmosphere and probably on land as well due to greater evaporation from water surfaces which will happen with any form off temperature increase.


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## CHamilton (Dec 21, 2012)

Amazing. Someone finally updated the Amtrak Cascades page on Facebook.



> *Amtrak Cascades*
> 
> *Train service is suspended between Seattle and Vancouver, BC with alternate transportation provided. Please visit Amtrak's service alerts page: **http://bit.ly/THR8eB**. For more information or call 1-800 USA RAIL.*


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## jis (Dec 22, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> Let me get this straight. A bunch of trains aren't running due to mudslides, but they still can't find enough equipment to operate the runs they have??
> 
> 
> 
> > *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Train 504, Eugene to Portland, is cancelled due to an equipment issue. Alternate transportation will be provided.


Could happen if too much equipment gets trapped on the wrong side of a track outage (Don;t know if that is the case in this case). This happened in spades after Hurricane Irene to NJT, which caused them in an attempt to avoid that, to take the disastrous step of moving equipment out of high and dry remote yards to their main storage facility in the Meadowlands marshes only to have them take a bath in the surge in Hurricane Sandy.


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## CHamilton (Dec 22, 2012)

"Rail link buses." I have no idea what that is, unless they mean Thruways/charters/not the dog.



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*
> 
> Amtrak Cascades trains between Vancouver BC & Seattle replaced with rail link buses today due to mudslides.


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## CHamilton (Dec 22, 2012)

> BNSF extends moratorium on passenger trainsPassenger and commuter train traffic won't be moving between Seattle and Everett for some time.
> 
> Burlington Northern Santa Fe spokesman Gus Melonas said Saturday that a 48-hour moratorium on passenger and commuter train service is now being *extended indefinitely.*
> 
> ...


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## Blackwolf (Dec 22, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> BNSF extends moratorium on passenger trains
> 
> Passenger and commuter train traffic won't be moving between Seattle and Everett for some time.
> 
> ...


And that, ladies and gents, is how passenger rail service in the PNW was unceremoniously stripped clean from partaking in the 2012 holiday season.

Without taking the time to dig up the data, what are we looking at in terms of ridership lost and revenue predictions? Record lows for the Cascades? And would Amtrak ever consider temporarily moving the Seattle departure time for #8 earlier, route the whole train via Portland and then up the Gorge combined, and do the same in reverse for #7?


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## Trogdor (Dec 22, 2012)

Blackwolf said:


> would Amtrak ever consider temporarily moving the Seattle departure time for #8 earlier, route the whole train via Portland and then up the Gorge combined, and do the same in reverse for #7?


The only thing that Amtrak might do is send the whole train to Portland. There isn't anywhere near enough time to get the train to Portland, then change ends and head back up to Seattle, service, and turn, go back to Portland, change ends and go back east.

The best you could even realistically hope for, for an arrival of #7 into Seattle if it ran via Portland would be 2 pm. That's not even enough time to service the train and make its normal departure of 4:45 pm, let alone an earlier one (it would have to leave before 1 pm to make an on-time departure from Portland).

So, long story short, no.


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## CHamilton (Dec 22, 2012)

Affected are Cascades 510/513, 516/517, EB 7/8 and Sounder North. There are four Cascades trips south of SEA and only two north. So we're talking about potentially cutting Cascades ridership by one-third. I doubt that EB ridership will be affected all that much, as eastbound passengers will either grumble and take the bus, or get friends to drive them to Everett. Sounder already has buses lined up.

But really, somebody at Amtrak, WSDOT and BNSF had better be making plans now! If this becomes a huge, ongoing problem, they had better start looking at the feasibility of running 7/8 over the Auburn-Stampede Pass route. Now that would be some interesting rare mileage!


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## CHamilton (Dec 22, 2012)

KING-TV says:



> If no other slide activity occurs, North Line Sounder service is expected to resume on Wednesday, Dec. 26.


So...??


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## Big Green Chauvanist (Dec 22, 2012)

The situation is likely to remain in flux in the coming days, with possibly conflicting reports coming from various agencies. The next few days are predicted to be partly rainy/partly sunny, not the steady unremitting events that seem to engender the slides. But then again, the slopes are saturated and gravity will do its thing. Very frustrating all around. When the first houses come crashing down, then perhaps the powers-that-be will get serious.


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## CHamilton (Dec 23, 2012)

Amtrak.com:



> PACIFIC NORTHWEST SERVICE DISRUPTION CONTINUES
> Empire Builder and Amtrak Cascades services affected by area mudslides
> 
> Dec. 22, 2012
> ...


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## TrackWalker (Dec 23, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > I think I saw something somewhere earlier in the thread about how a pax train was allowed to operate on the outer track in one of the incidents after a small slide with little impact. It may be possible that one slide not covering both could allows for some pax train operation, even at reduced speed. I would love to see that...
> ...


It is not true. Revenue passenger trains are not allowed on either main track. This week I saw only 3 empty non-passenger Amtrak trains being positioned through this area.(EB and 2Talgos)

For everyone's clarification the outer track/outboard or Puget Sound side is "Main 1" and the hillside track is "Main 2",


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## Swadian Hardcore (Dec 23, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> > BNSF extends moratorium on passenger trainsPassenger and commuter train traffic won't be moving between Seattle and Everett for some time.
> >
> > Burlington Northern Santa Fe spokesman Gus Melonas said Saturday that a 48-hour moratorium on passenger and commuter train service is now being *extended indefinitely.*
> >
> > ...


That's not good! This could turn into something like the SL East if BNSF decides to downgrade the line. Unlikely, but who knows?


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## CHamilton (Dec 23, 2012)

I don't think that's likely, since there's too much freight traffic on the line. But BNSF would certainly not cry if passenger service went away.


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## CHamilton (Dec 26, 2012)

* From Facebook.*



> Amtrak Cascades
> 
> Amtrak Cascades service is suspended between Seattle and Vancouver B.C. until further notice. BNSF is closely monitoring the hillsides and weather forecasts and is evaluating the situation on a day to day basis. Amtrak is providing bus service on this route. Please visit this link to check train status.: http://bit.ly/RSAwUK


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## CHamilton (Dec 26, 2012)

More from Facebook.



> All Aboard Washington *The BNSF moratorium on passenger train service between Seattle and Everett due to unstable ground continues through at least Thursday Dec. 27. Amtrak is busing all the way between Seattle and Vancouver, BC instead of just busing train passengers Seattle-Everett. Empire Builder passengers are bused only Seattle-Everett.*


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## amtrakwolverine (Dec 26, 2012)

Amtrak can't afford to go through this every winter. They loose money and also gives those who hate amtrak more fuel. maybe its time to find a another route to seattle that is not affected by mudslides. I understand money is tight but something needs to be done. What if the slide had taken out a amtrak train full of passengers instead of the container train?


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## CHamilton (Dec 26, 2012)

Kevin, you are so right. I do not know who is paying for the buses and the lost revenue. And I don't know how to quantify lost future revenue from people who decide that they're never going to take a train again.

The problem is that there is no feasible alternate route. The one that comes closest, the eastside route between Renton, Bellevue, Woodinville, and Snohomish, has been cut in half by WSDOT and is now owned by five separate localities, at least one of which is pulling up the tracks. Building a new line would require finding a new RoW; about the only way to do that would be to take away lanes from I-5 or SR 99 -- can you say "pigs will fly"?

I had an interesting conversation on the CS with someone who has worked for the railroads and the transit agencies, and he says that this problem is only going to get worse. He thinks the issue has been inevitable ever since a lot of hillsides were cut away in the 1930s to double-track the line.

But of course, it comes down to money and political will. If the latter is there, the former will be found. And the only way to make political will happen is for us to get everyone we know to join the rail advocacy organizations. I know, they have problems. But if they can start saying that they represent 100 or 1000 times more people than they do now, the politicians will have to listen.

NARP: http://www.narprail.org/donate/join

All Aboard Washington: http://allaboardwashington.org/join-us/join-or-renew-online/


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## winterskigirl (Dec 26, 2012)

Why aren't passengers bussed to Everett from Seattle for the Amtrak Cascades run north up to Vancouver, B.C.? Is this moratorium so strict that BNSF won't even allow Amtrak engineers to run the trains up to Everett?

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251623160072


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## CHamilton (Dec 27, 2012)

> All Aboard Washington
> BNSF has now extended its passenger train moratorium between Seattle and Everett to Monday morning Dec. 31. This will mark two weeks without Sounder or Amtrak service on this segment.
> 
> Sounder north service canceled through weekend www.seattlepi.com
> ...


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## PRR 60 (Dec 27, 2012)

winterskigirl said:


> Why aren't passengers bussed to Everett from Seattle for the Amtrak Cascades run north up to Vancouver, B.C.? Is this moratorium so strict that BNSF won't even allow Amtrak engineers to run the trains up to Everett?
> 
> http://www.amtrak.co...d=1251623160072


If the tracks are passable, crews can run empty trains through the mudslide sites during the moratorium. They cannot run trains with passengers on board. The philosophy is that a relative handful of trained employees could escape safely from a train derailed by a mudslide, while a train with a hundred or more passengers of varying degrees of physical capability would have a much more difficult time getting out quickly.


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## JayPea (Dec 27, 2012)

As stated, there is no feasible alternative route. I guess Amtrak could reroute its Spokane - Seattle route over the former NP route through Yakima and over Stampede Pass into Auburn and into Seattle, but that would be a very drastic measure.


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## CHamilton (Dec 27, 2012)

JayPea said:


> As stated, there is no feasible alternative route. I guess Amtrak could reroute its Spokane - Seattle route over the former NP route through Yakima and over Stampede Pass into Auburn and into Seattle, but that would be a very drastic measure.


I sure hope that someone at Amtrak, WSDOT and BNSF are at least considering how they could do this temporarily. I suppose that it would come down to cost and convenience -- but of course, it wouldn't solve how to get Sounder North trains, and Cascades SEA-VAC service, through. Rerouting the EB permanently would have its advantages, but after all the troubles Leavenworth went through to get the EB to stop there, they would certainly be very unhappy. In the best of all worlds, I imagine that the state would like to have trains using both routes, but that would require much more budget than is available at present.


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## CHamilton (Dec 30, 2012)

From Facebook.



> All Aboard Washington *BNSF has extended is moratorium on passenger train operations between Seattle and Everett until at least Wednesday morning Jan. 2. This will mark at least 16 consecutive days without Amtrak or Sounder service between the two cities. Empire Builder passengers continue to be bused between Seattle and Everett. Cascades passengers get the bus treatment all the way from Seattle to Vancouver, BC. BNSF continues trying to mitigate the sliding hillsides but it should be becoming clear that measures well beyond what the railroad has been doing are required.*


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## Big Green Chauvanist (Dec 30, 2012)

CHamilton said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> > As stated, there is no feasible alternative route. I guess Amtrak could reroute its Spokane - Seattle route over the former NP route through Yakima and over Stampede Pass into Auburn and into Seattle, but that would be a very drastic measure.
> ...


If I am correct, the superliner cars used on the Empire Builder won't fit through the Stampede Pass tunnel. Freight double stacks can't.


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## Blackwolf (Dec 30, 2012)

Big Green Chauvanist said:


> If I am correct, the superliner cars used on the Empire Builder won't fit through the Stampede Pass tunnel. Freight double stacks can't.


I'm no expert, but I think the doublestacks are taller than the Superliners. Donner Pass, for example, could not handle doublestack trains until the tunnel enlarging project was completed a few years ago. Until that point, UP (and previously SP) routed their doublestack trains over the former WP Feather River Route. None the less, Amtrak has been sending Superliner consists through Donner for decades.

Does anyone have the load gauge standard for Stampede Pass?


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## anir dendroica (Dec 30, 2012)

--


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## PRR 60 (Dec 30, 2012)

anir dendroica said:


> Per the Cascades website, Vancouver service is to resume tomorrow, Dec. 31. I see that today's #8 is showing a station time for Edmonds (typically not seen during bustitutions), so I wonder if it was the first loaded passenger train through the slide zone.


The train service tomorrow (12/31) will be between Everett and Vancouver. Seattle to Everett will be covered by buses.

From Amtrak:



> Amtrak intends to resume Amtrak Cascades train service between Everett, Wash., and Vancouver, B.C. on Monday, Dec. 31.
> Due to previous mudslide activity and a BNSF Railway mortatorium on passenger rail traffic, alternate bus transportation will remain in effect for travel between Seattle and Everett through Monday, Dec. 31.


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## TrackWalker (Dec 30, 2012)

Everett highline is back in service as well as main 2 (hillside track) between Mukelteo and Edmonds. #8 has left Everett and #516 north is arriving at Everett right now.

I am unaware if there were revenue passengers on either between Seattle and Everett.


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## anir dendroica (Dec 31, 2012)

Cascades trains today are showing no missed station stops or major delays. They might be putting the passengers on buses from Everett to SEA, but if so it appears to be going smoothly.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 1, 2013)

Arrived on the Empire Builder in Everett this morning, New Year's Day. They debarked all passengers bound for Seattle and Edmonds and put them on buses. Conductor said it is supposed to run through tomorrow.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 1, 2013)

Local media (KING and KOMO) are reporting no passenger trains on this line until at least Wednesday PM.

Honestly I think BNSF will find another "slide" in the area above the tracks and extend this again. This is nothing more than BNSF trying to either kill the Sounder service or get the Washington taxpayer to fund more improvements to the line. Personally I have called and written my city, state and county representatives urging them to do whatever it takes to call BNSF's bluff and get passenger service back on track. (pun intended)

David

Seattle


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## Nathanael (Jan 1, 2013)

An analysis of the Portland-Vancouver line by WSDOT from 2011 showed that there are a number of slide zones along the other parts of the line -- a total of 28 scattered along the entire line --

--and THIRTY-FIVE known slide zones between Seattle and Everett.

http://wsdotblog.blo...ong-amtrak.html

On top of that, the Seattle-Everett line is literally built on a beach (as well as being just below cliffs) and is going to be hit hard by sealevel rise. There's really no fix for this line.

The Seattle-Everett line really needs a complete inland bypass, for freight as well as for passengers. Unfortunately nobody is considering this right now. If you live in the area, call your state and city legislators and DOT members; a study for an inland bypass should be started now.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 1, 2013)

The Seattle-Everett line really needs a complete inland bypass, for freight as well as for passengers. Unfortunately nobody is considering this right now. If you live in the area, call your state and city legislators and DOT members; a study for an inland bypass should be started now.

The former NP Sumas line is there in parts. It could be restored and the connection between the Steven's Pass line be re-built, but I really cant see the good folks of Bellevue, Kirkland, Woodinville, Newcastle et al allowing this to happen. Heck they dont want 5 commuter trains a day much less freight traffic too.

The solutiuon is for BNSF to repair the damage they did to those cliffs 15 years ago when they clearcut them. They also need to invest the man-power and man- hours in running pre-train inspections and ensure the line is safe, and then operate the passenger trains at a slow order if necessary, but OPERATE them. Our duly elected leaders need to get them to quit trying to kill Sounder service and actually carry out their contractual obligations.


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## JayPea (Jan 2, 2013)

And, service is back up and running!  From Amtrak's Facebook page: This time I hope they can keep the line open for an extended period, which is of course iffy this time of year. Thank goodness, contrary to popular belief, it dres out during some of spring, all of summer, and some of fall in that area or it would be a constant hassle trying to keep it open. I hope there  will be some serious attention paid to the problem, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 2, 2013)

Even a slide taking out one of its own freight trains won't wake them up. even if a slide should take out a passenger train BNSF will just ban passenger trains forever on that line instead of fixing the problem like building sheds over the tracks to protect from the slides like maria's pass has against avalanches.


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## CHamilton (Jan 3, 2013)

> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Cascades Service between Seattle & Everett suspended until 1:15pm PT 1/5/13 due to mudslide. Alternate transportation will be provided.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Jan 3, 2013)

I fully expect it to be cancelled throughout most of this winter season.


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## CHamilton (Jan 3, 2013)

NorthCoastHiawatha said:


> I fully expect it to be cancelled throughout most of this winter season.


I sure hope you are wrong, but considering that we've had no rain and beautiful blue skies for the last few days, this is not encouraging news. It's beginning to rain again here in Seattle as I type this, so what little chance for drying out we had is now gone. I wonder what it would take for the state or the feds to close the line completely--for freight as well as passenger service? Bet that would force BNSF to fix their problem!


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## Blackwolf (Jan 3, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> I wonder what it would take for the state or the feds to *close the line completely*--for freight as well as passenger service? Bet that would force BNSF to fix their problem!


This right here, if it could be managed in some legal manner by an authority with the power to enforce the embargo, is likely the best and most expedient answer to this problem I have heard.

Sure, there _is_ another route that was abandoned (foolishly, as hind-sight would prove) and because of modern venomous politics will never allow it, it will remain impossible to use again. The easy answer of reactivating the inland route is mute, so forcing the railroad's hand and robbing them of even their own revenue freight business seems the next best thing. The current Russian Roulette scheme going on now is never going to end favorably for passenger rail. I, for one, find myself somewhat supportive of an "all or nothing" take. Either repair the line and make sure it is reliable both for freight and passenger use, or no-one gets to use it at all.


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## CHamilton (Jan 4, 2013)

With a headline like this, the article should have appeared on the Religion page. Who's the god of mudslides?



> Northline commuters keep faith as slide parks Sounder again_Thursday morning, it looked like Northline Sounder commuters would finally be able to get back on their trains. Then, Thursday afternoon, yet another mudslide canceled service for another 48 hours._
> 
> Despite a record number of Northline Sounder cancellations caused by mudslides this rainy season, Sound Transit passengers commuting between Seattle and Everett were excited to finally board their trains again Thursday morning.
> 
> ...


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## montana mike (Jan 4, 2013)

So I assume this is why Amtrak is showing Service Disruptions for BOTH #7 trains this AM? So why aren't they also showing the same for the two #8's as well, since they are just as effected?

Strange...........


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## anir dendroica (Jan 4, 2013)

Passengers on currently-running #8s won't be affected as they are eastbound away from the slide. The Service Disruption for #7 is to warn pax that there is a problem ahead (albeit a fairly small one in the scheme of things).



montana mike said:


> So I assume this is why Amtrak is showing Service Disruptions for BOTH #7 trains this AM?	So why aren't they also showing the same for the two #8's as well, since they are just as effected?
> 
> Strange...........


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## SP&S (Jan 4, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> With a headline like this, the article should have appeared on the Religion page. Who's the god of mudslides?


Since it has to do with rain, *Jupiter Pluvius!*


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## JayPea (Jan 4, 2013)

SP&S said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > With a headline like this, the article should have appeared on the Religion page. Who's the god of mudslides?
> ...


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## CHamilton (Jan 4, 2013)

> Another mudslide delays trains north of SeattleMUKILTEO — Another mudslide has suspended passenger train service north of Seattle until at least Sunday.
> 
> Burlington Northern Santa Fe spokesman Gus Melonas says the mudslide struck at about 4 a.m. Friday a little more than two miles south of Mukilteo. Freight train traffic resumed later in the morning, but passenger rail service is subject to a 48-hour moratorium any time there’s a mudslide by the tracks.
> 
> Passenger service was already suspended by a slide north of Mukilteo on Thursday afternoon, but Friday’s slide means service won’t resume until Sunday morning at the earliest.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 4, 2013)

I was having dinner tonight in Edmonds, trackside when the EB went through. It was odd not to see a full diner or people peeRing out the coach windows


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## CHamilton (Jan 4, 2013)

I hope you meant "peering"...


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## EMDF9A (Jan 4, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> I hope you meant "peering"...


OMG Yes! OOPS what an unfortunate typo!


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## Phil S (Jan 4, 2013)

What the staus of the Snoqualmie tunnel - ex Miulwaukee Road. Any chance that can be used fror #7 and 8? Run a bus to serve Everett and whatever else would be bypassed.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 4, 2013)

WellTrained said:


> What the staus of the Snoqualmie tunnel - ex Miulwaukee Road. Any chance that can be used fror #7 and 8? Run a bus to serve Everett and whatever else would be bypassed.


The Snoqualmie tunnel hasnt had tracks in over 20 years. BN pulled them up in the 80s. Its actually now a state park (The John Wayne Trail) though the tunnel itself has been closed for aout a year because of ceiling issues and no funds to fix it. I hope they can find the money this year as I have ridden a bicycle through the Hyak tunnel before and it was an amazing experience.

Numbers 7 & 8 could potentially be re-routed on the former NP over Stampede, but that is a MAJOR re-route that would eliminate Ephrata, Wenatchee, Leavenworth (after they fought long & hard for a stop) as well as Everett and Edmonds. As much as I am a HUGE NP fan and would love to be able to take a "rare-mileage" trip accross Stampede, I dont see either AMTRAK or BNSF making this happen. This also would do nothing to deal with Cascades service to Vancouver or Sounder servicce Seattle to Everett.

Local news reports tonight (KOMO) indicate that politicians including US Senators & Representatives have been getting calls & letters from constituients to force BNSF to do something to stabilize the slopes and they appear to be listening... they have made overtures to property owners about stabilizing the slopes... But as I have said her & on other forums before, there HAS to be a permanant solution. These types of service disruptions can kill Sounder service and severely damage Cascades.


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## CHamilton (Jan 5, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> Local news reports tonight (KOMO) indicate that politicians including US Senators & Representatives have been getting calls & letters from constituients to force BNSF to do something to stabilize the slopes and they appear to be listening... they have made overtures to property owners about stabilizing the slopes...


I think you're referring to this story, which was actually on KING TV. It's certainly positive that the problem is getting attention from the press and elected officials, but we have a long way to go, and it's a long time before the wet season ends (traditionally on July 4th)!



> Railroad wants to work with property owners to curb landslidesBNSF Railway Company said Friday it wants to work with homeowners living along the cliffs above the main rail route running north from Seattle -- a section of rail that's been plagued by repeated landslides this year.
> 
> The most problematic area is in the Mukilteo slide zone, about two-and-a-half miles south of the ferry terminal. So far this winter, seven slides have occurred in that area, and a few weeks ago a relatively small slide came down as a freight train was passing, derailing it.
> 
> BNSF is specifically concerned about drainage pipes that carry water from properties above the tracks. The water destabilizes the slopes, and some of the pipes could be leaking while others may have been installed illegally.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 5, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> I think you're referring to this story, which was actually on KING TV. It's certainly positive that the problem is getting attention from the press and elected officials, but we have a long way to go, and it's a long time before the wet season ends (traditionally on July 4th)!
> 
> 
> > Railroad wants to work with property owners to curb landslidesBNSF Railway Company said Friday it wants to work with homeowners living along the cliffs above the main rail route running north from Seattle -- a section of rail that's been plagued by repeated landslides this year.
> ...



KING may have reported that story but the one I saw was on KOMO and specifically mentioned Patty Murray and Dow Constantine. Either way as you said, its a good thing that this is getting press and forcing BNSF and the local homeowners to DO something about it. And about the the "rainy" season here... "Summer begins in Seattle on July the 5th and ends the Friday before Labor Day" Is the old joke I've always heard. (And I've lived here with a couple years in WI and Pullman for school since 1966.) And it usually holds fairly true, though in recent years we've had some decent Septembers.


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## CHamilton (Jan 5, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> KING may have reported that story but the one I saw was on KOMO and specifically mentioned Patty Murray and Dow Constantine.


Okay, thanks for the confirmation. Unfortunately, the KOMO story doesn't seem to be on their website, which instead is featuring such gems as "Man saves daughter's poodle from teeth of coyote"! If you can find it, post the link, will you?


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## June the Coach Rider (Jan 5, 2013)

Any idea if the mudslides will still be affecting the EB and the CS in mid to late February? I am traveling the EB CHI to PDX on Feb. 20 then the CS PDX to SLM, SLM to EUG and then on down to LAX with overnight stops in SLM and EUG.


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## CHamilton (Jan 5, 2013)

June,

If you're traveling via PDX, you shouldn't need to worry. While there have been mudslides south of PDX, they've been very, very rare. And I don't recall ever hearing of slides on the route of 27/28 between SPK and PDX.


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## June the Coach Rider (Jan 5, 2013)

thanks, Not that it would matter if I had to take other transportation, but knowing ahead of time is a good thing. Sad for those going to Seattle, but glad it does not affect my trip.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 6, 2013)

Update 10:50AM PST 01/06/13

Gus Melonas has announced that passenger service has resumed north of Seattle as of 4AM today.

(as a scarcastic editorial note from a local resident... I'm sure there will be another slide to close it before the 5 PM news cast)


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## CHamilton (Jan 6, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> Update 10:50AM PST 01/06/13
> 
> Gus Melonas has announced that passenger service has resumed north of Seattle as of 4AM today.
> 
> (as a scarcastic editorial note from a local resident... I'm sure there will be another slide to close it before the 5 PM news cast)


I guess it's news when the trains are actually running now. EMDF9A, we have two hours to go...

Passenger train service resumes north of Seattle


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## EMDF9A (Jan 6, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> EMDF9A said:
> 
> 
> > Update 10:50AM PST 01/06/13
> ...


And I'm humming the "JEOPARDY" theme right now!


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## CHamilton (Jan 6, 2013)

And, uh oh, from the NWS:



> .A PROLONGED PERIOD OF WET AN ACTIVE WEATHER WILL BEGIN ACROSS THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST ON MONDAY AS A STRONG WARM FRONT ARRIVES.
> 
> THIS SYSTEM WILL BRING AN ABUNDANCE OF MOISTURE TO THE REGION
> 
> ...


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## amtrakwolverine (Jan 6, 2013)

How long untill this becomes the cascades version of the sunset east.


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## CHamilton (Jan 6, 2013)

amtrakwolverine said:


> How long untill this becomes the cascades version of the sunset east.


Don't even THINK that


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## EMDF9A (Jan 6, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > How long untill this becomes the cascades version of the sunset east.
> ...


I agree with CH. Don't even THINK that.

On the topic of theSunset East.. The Big Bayou Canot incident was in 1993. Almost 20 years ago. What is the excuse for not restoring the NOLA/Miami leg? The line has been repaired (and repaired again after Katrina & Irene) Whats the excuse?


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## johnny.menhennet (Jan 6, 2013)

First, the line was last cancelled in 2005, not 93. Second, the most recent incarnation terminated in Orlando not Miami. Third, Irene was an East Coast storm, didn't have a big effect/any effect on New Orleans. Fourth, a few reasons for the continued suspension are that after January 2006 when the tracks were restored from Katrina damage, Amtrak decided it was not worth operating not only because it was sucking money to a huge extent, but with the Sunset Limited's schedule redo in May 2012 the equipment that would have made possible the extension was re-obligated and now the schedule would not be conducive to equipment utilization/maximization efforts.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Jan 7, 2013)

It appears the line north of Seattle is active again. Who knows for how long though.


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## anir dendroica (Jan 7, 2013)

The mudslide problem appears to be getting dramatically worse year after year, despite no real increase in the frequency or intensity of rainfall during the winter season.

To me, that suggests that land drainage (which has been changing) is more important than slope stability (which remains fairly constant). That means it should be possible to reduce mudslides without multi-billion-dollar earthworks, though it might require (gasp) forcing landowners to implement drainage solutions on private land.


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## Blackwolf (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm crossing my fingers _HARD_, as I head north on #14 on Wednesday. No slides, please!!!


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## Nathanael (Jan 7, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> The mudslide problem appears to be getting dramatically worse year after year, despite no real increase in the frequency or intensity of rainfall during the winter season.
> 
> To me, that suggests that land drainage (which has been changing) is more important than slope stability (which remains fairly constant). That means it should be possible to reduce mudslides without multi-billion-dollar earthworks, though it might require (gasp) forcing landowners to implement drainage solutions on private land.


BNSF agrees with you.

http://www.king5.com...-185718342.html


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## anir dendroica (Jan 7, 2013)

Blackwolf said:


> I'm crossing my fingers _HARD_, as I head north on #14 on Wednesday. No slides, please!!!


#14 is affected relatively infrequently, as the main slide zone is north of Seattle. There are occasional (2-3 times per winter) slides near Tacoma that force bustitution of #14 between PDX and SEA.


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## CHamilton (Jan 8, 2013)

> Mudslide disrupts Sounder service Tuesday, alternate routes plannedNorthline Sounder service between Everett and Seattle have been cancelled through Wednesday after a mudslide occurred Monday evening.


As usual, this will also affect Cascades trains to VAC, and the EB.


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## FriskyFL (Jan 8, 2013)

Amtrak just posted on Facebook a few minutes ago that BNSF tracks closed to passenger trains between Seattle and Everett.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 8, 2013)

Jeez, at this rate maybe all of the dirt will just slide to the bottom and we'll be left with a wide, flat plain stretching all the way from the Puget Sound to Spokane. Sure, the trip would be less scenic but maybe the line would stay open!


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## JayPea (Jan 8, 2013)

When houses start sliding onto the tracks, I bet you'll see property owners making more of a move to help alleviate the situation.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 8, 2013)

JayPea said:


> When houses start sliding onto the tracks, I bet you'll see property owners making more of a move to help alleviate the situation.


That doesnt seem to work in LA Jeff! Houses (Very Expensive Ones!)slide off the Cliffs all the time and No Fix has ever happened!

Same thing with the Boobs that build on the Coasts where Storms happen Regularly, on Rivers that Flood etc. and then they expect the Government (Us!) to Pay them to Rebuild! Even the City of New Orleans would be a Classic Example!


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## Phil S (Jan 8, 2013)

As most of you know, WSDOT has a program in place to work with BNSF to try to stabilize the cliffs. Their website is a bit sketchy on info and gives no info I can find on what to me is the most important issue -- do the properties that adjoin the cliffs have access to storm drain or even sewer system? Or does it all go into the ground water and then out via the cliffs? I spent hours searching King Co. websites for a map of their storm drain system and all I found was a report suggesting that "Gee, a map would be a really useful thing to have". So I just wrote an e-mail to Melanie Coon, info officer for WSDOT for the mudslide project, asking for info. Obviously, I'll post whatever info I get back.


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## CHamilton (Jan 8, 2013)

Good idea. Did you look at Snohomish County as well? The slides in the Mukilteo/Edmonds area would be in that county.


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## Phil S (Jan 8, 2013)

Mukilteo actually has a detailed map of city storm drain system Snohomish Co. has only done a few areas.

In case this hasn;t been already posted, here's a link to a vid of the landslide/derail.

http://seattletransitblog.com/2012/12/20/mudslides-up-close/

Less dramatic but maybe more useful is the blog site itself.


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## TrackWalker (Jan 8, 2013)

JayPea said:


> When houses start sliding onto the tracks, I bet you'll see property owners making more of a move to help alleviate the situation.


Using google earth you will note that south of Muck-ilteo the swimming pools built at the tops of the slope will be the first to go.

(I'm sure they properly drain them into the storm drain system)


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## CHamilton (Jan 9, 2013)

Radio talk show hosts call for Sounder north line commuter trains to be discontinued in the wake of mudslides.

http://mynorthwest.com/76/2169889/This-issue-has-Dori-Monson-and-Luke-Burbank-in-agreement


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## Phil S (Jan 9, 2013)

I responded to Ms. Coon's reply for clarification with a request for a link to the proposal they must have written to FRA to secure the funding. I found copies of numerous other proposals on WSDOt websites (like the Defiance re-route) but couldn't find the "mudslide" proposal. So far no response from her.

Yep, I too am sure all of those swimming pools are drained into storm drains  But seriously, w/o addressing the issue of storm and septic drainage from the properties and roads adjoining the cliffs, anything WSDOT and BNSF do to mitigate the slides is going to mean money wasted. I just can't see how "simply" engineering structures along the right-of-way is an efficient way to deal with the problems. I'd really like to see if/how this issue was addressed in the WSDOT proposal. Also be interesting to see what the BNSF technical assessment had to say. Anybody have inside sources??


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## fairviewroad (Jan 9, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Radio talk show hosts call for Sounder north line commuter trains to be discontinued in the wake of mudslides.
> 
> http://mynorthwest.c...nk-in-agreement


Wait...a radio station is running a news story about several of its hosts agreeing on a particular issue? Jeez, talk about

an overinflated sense of self-importance. Can you imagine the discussion in the newsroom: "Joe Bigmouth thinks Sounder

North Trains ought to be eliminated." "Now, Jim Loudtalk is saying the same thing." "So that makes two sources...GO WITH IT!"

That's not to say that questioning the value of this line isn't a legitimate exercise...I just find this particular "news" article to be

an obnoxious way to approach it.

That said...this winter sure is making this route a tempting target. Heh, maybe it ought to be "seasonal" service only?


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## CHamilton (Jan 9, 2013)

This story has a picture, but I can't tell if it's a new one, or just a rerun of an old one. They all run together after a while.



> North Sounder service halted until at least FridaySEATTLE (AP) - Mudslides continue to plague passenger rail traffic north of Seattle.
> 
> Burlington Northern Santa Fe spokesman Gus Melonas says tracks between Seattle and Everett have been shut down for passenger trains 95 percent of the time since Thanksgiving.
> 
> ...


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## Texan Eagle (Jan 9, 2013)

Sorry I have not been following this topic since I don't happen to go to that part of the country, but now I have a trip coming up so getting worried- someone please tell me how grave (or non-existent) is the risk to *Coast Starlight* as far as the mudslide season goes? Does it get stuck for hours/canceled/bustituted often or is the problem limited to only north of Seattle?


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## jebr (Jan 9, 2013)

fairviewroad said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > Radio talk show hosts call for Sounder north line commuter trains to be discontinued in the wake of mudslides.
> ...


Also, their proposal is to drive people in minivans? That's 188 vans (with 6 people each, plus the driver) each day. Or 94 vans each way each day. That's more than a few employees.

Now, it could be proposed for bus service to start taking over this line. Assuming 30 people on each bus (some with more, some with less, assuming non-articulated buses,) that's "only" 38 buses a day, or 19 each way each day. Spread out among the stations, and assuming few people are going from station to station (I don't know that, so that could be a flaw), it's not *that bad* of a deal.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 9, 2013)

Texan Eagle said:


> Sorry I have not been following this topic since I don't happen to go to that part of the country, but now I have a trip coming up so getting worried- someone please tell me how grave (or non-existent) is the risk to *Coast Starlight* as far as the mudslide season goes? Does it get stuck for hours/canceled/bustituted often or is the problem limited to only north of Seattle?


By far the most troublesome slide zones are between Seattle and Everett, particularly just south of Everett. The Coast Starlight originates and terminates in Seattle and does not go through this area. There are other slide areas that can affect the Coast Starlight but they are not the ones currently causing most of the problems. Therefore, the risk to the Coast Starlight is not zero, but it is fairly low.


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## fairviewroad (Jan 9, 2013)

jebr said:


> Also, their proposal is to drive people in minivans? That's 188 vans (with 6 people each, plus the driver) each day. Or 94 vans each way each day. That's more than a few employees.
> 
> Now, it could be proposed for bus service to start taking over this line. Assuming 30 people on each bus (some with more, some with less, assuming non-articulated buses,) that's "only" 38 buses a day, or 19 each way each day. Spread out among the stations, and assuming few people are going from station to station (I don't know that, so that could be a flaw), it's not *that bad* of a deal.


Plus, factor in the fact that some people who are willing to commute by train would be unwilling to commute by bus, and you'd need even fewer busses than that. Of course,

the roads would be that much more congested as a result.


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## CHamilton (Jan 9, 2013)

Apparently, many of the coal trains en route to the proposed coal-export terminal in Bellingham would travel through the Edmonds-Mukilteo slide area. So BNSF will definitely want to solve the slides, but would probably be just as happy for the passenger trains to go away at that location.


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## CHamilton (Jan 9, 2013)

> ...Tracks between Seattle and Everett have been shut down for passenger trains 95 percent of the time since Thanksgiving....There have been 75 slides in that period. The latest was at south Everett Wednesday morning. Another slide Tuesday night covered tracks in British Columbia south of Vancouver.


From the Seattle Times. Also, there was a mudslide this morning that closed a road in West Seattle.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jan 9, 2013)

If the Bellingham coal trains are going through Stevens, there would not be a need to travel along the line in question...


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## EMDF9A (Jan 9, 2013)

johnny.menhennet said:


> If the Bellingham coal trains are going through Stevens, there would not be a need to travel along the line in question...


Stevens is close to its limit of trains right now. I think I remember reading somewhere that that number is 27 based on the time it takes to clear the tunnel of exhaust gasses. Because Stevens is a mountain grade, they will try to reduce heavy tonnage trains like coal drags on this line. Although the former NP line over Stampede could handle the traffic, its 2.2% grade is steeper than Stevens. Current coal trains travel the Columbia Gorge former SP&S line and then north on the former NP Portland/Seattle line.

Coal trains are a reality now. They just pass through Washington on their way to Tsswwassen BC to a large trans-loading terminal there. The question isnt WILL there be coal trains on this line but whether or not they will continue on toward BC or use a terminal to be constructed in Washington (and all the jobs that brings) The Chinese and Koreans WILL buy coal. The mine owners WILL sell it to them. BNSF WILL transport it. It WILL travel these lines through Seattle. Its just a matter of whether the people of Washington are not so short sighted as to not take advantage of the inevitable.


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## NJCoastExp (Jan 9, 2013)

From Amtrak Cascades tweet fw minutes ago;

Service between Seattle & Vancouver BC Suspended until 1/11/13 @ 8:00am due to mudslide. Replacement buses are available.

UGH


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## CHamilton (Jan 10, 2013)

Add twelve hours to that.



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Service between Seattle & Vancouver BC Suspended until 1/11/13 @ 7:40PM due to mudslide. Replacement buses are available





> Melonas says three slides hit the area Wednesday, including two on Wednesday night. Another slide Tuesday night covered tracks in British Columbia south of Vancouver. That makes a total of 77 slides in that period in the greater Pacific Northwest corridor.


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## CHamilton (Jan 10, 2013)

> Mudslides Close Sounder Northline Yet Again. Sure Will Be Nice When that $16.1 Million Fedral Grant Does Something.


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## CHamilton (Jan 10, 2013)

The schedule has "slid" again.



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Cascades service between Seattle & Everett suspended until 8:20am PT 1/12/13 due to mudslide. Alternate transportation will be provided.


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## CHamilton (Jan 10, 2013)

Mudslides don’t mean a holiday for Sound Transit staff



> Those who run Sounder trains still have plenty of tasks to keep them busy despite the record-breaking number of cancellations....
> 
> What do staff who run the train do when the train's not running?
> 
> ...


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## jebr (Jan 10, 2013)

Well, at least they don't have to pay the BNSF employees. I'm guessing that's probably the largest running expense.


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## CHamilton (Jan 10, 2013)

> Crews work to clear a mudslide off the tracks Thursday morning between Seattle and Everett.


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## CHamilton (Jan 11, 2013)

I sure hope that the passengers being bustituted from Everett to Seattle didn't end up on this bus.


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## bbecker258 (Jan 11, 2013)

EMDF9A said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > If the Bellingham coal trains are going through Stevens, there would not be a need to travel along the line in question...
> ...


 Hear, Hear. Your comment is so salient. Thank you for your clear understanding. I am hoping that BNSF and WDOT will take the issue of slides seriously. I ride the Cascades as I am a wheelchair user, it's just more comfortable. Right now I am waiting for status of 513, tomorrow. If I have to travel by bus, i'll cancel and use BOLT. Faster, wi-fi, cheaper. BUT rail is preferred by far.


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## CHamilton (Jan 12, 2013)

Woo hoo! Guess the mud has frozen in the 21-degree temps. See you on 513, bbecker!



> *Amtrak Cascades* ‏@*Amtrak_Cascades*Cascades service from Seattle to Vancouver BC restored after mudslide. Residual delays expected.


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## CHamilton (Jan 12, 2013)

At King Street Station waiting for 513. Passengers from 7 arrived a few minutes ago, and they were very happy not to be on a bus.


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## TrackWalker (Jan 13, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> > Crews work to clear a mudslide off the tracks Thursday morning between Seattle and Everett.


This is "The Milepost" (MP 31) where we park and fuel our machinery,


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## Phil S (Jan 13, 2013)

TrackWalker said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > > Crews work to clear a mudslide off the tracks Thursday morning between Seattle and Everett.
> ...


Is there a cliff there? Doesn;t look like it, though the photo is awful.


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## EMDF9A (Jan 13, 2013)

WellTrained said:


> TrackWalker said:
> 
> 
> > CHamilton said:
> ...


The tracks run between the water and a hillside from Ballard (Golden Gardens) all the way to Everett (30 some miles). Some are steeper than others,and yes there are several areas that could be considered a cliffs.


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## CHamilton (Jan 13, 2013)

> [bNSF] says engineers...[reopened the Seattle-Everett line]...in what they hope is a long-term clearing of the lines....
> 
> Melonas says crews are using the dry spell to continue working on short-term remedies, such as ditching and cutting trees that are leaning. He says BNSF is considering enhancing drainage along the line near Everett later on.


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## CHamilton (Jan 23, 2013)

All Aboard Washington posted an article (PDF) about one engineering solution that was used to avoid mudslides. It was added along the BNSF mainline near Castle Rock, WA, in 2000.

Note, however, that a geologist who saw the original article says that the solution would not work for the slide areas between Seattle and Everett.



> Speaking as a geologist who has been involved with the design of similar slope protection in Montana, this specific application will not do much to stabilize the inherent slope instability problems between Seattle and Everett.
> 
> 
> The slide-prone slopes along Puget Sound generally share common attributes:
> ...


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## CHamilton (Jan 24, 2013)

From WSDOT. Is it just me, or is the content level of this press release very low?



> Rail partners explore mudslide causes, solutions
> 
> OLYMPIA – Four rail partners involved in service and safety in the corridor between Seattle and Everett are putting a new focus on understanding the root causes and potential solutions to mudslides that resulted in a record number of Amtrak Cascades and Sounder passenger-service disruptions this winter.
> 
> ...


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## CHamilton (Jan 29, 2013)

> Slippery slopes: Can we mudproof Northwest rail?
> 
> In the last few months, mudslides have derailed the region's train service and ridership. More than 350 runs have been cancelled or truncated. When will WSDOT fix the problem? And how?
> 
> ...


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## CHamilton (Feb 18, 2013)

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/seattle-everett-passenger-train-services-disrupted/nWRdr/Seattle-Everett passenger train services disrupted due to mudslide
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/seattle-everett-passenger-train-services-disrupted/nWRdr/


SEATTLE — Tracks used by Amtrak Cascades, Empire Builder and Sounder Northline trains between Seattle and Everett have been temporarily closed due to a mudslide.







Alternate transportation between Seattle and Everett or Vancouver, B.C., will be provided







A 48-hour moratorium period on passenger trains took effect Sunday until Tuesday afternoon, Feb. 19, which was imposed by Burlington Northern Santa Fe.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 18, 2013)

:help: Damn, Hope its Open by Friday 2/22 since I'm Scheduled on 510 to VAC, I've Paid my Dues on I5 too Many Times, see if you can Arrange for the Sun Charlie! :hi:


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## CHamilton (Feb 18, 2013)

The weather forecast is not too bad, so if nothing else happens, 510 should be running by Wednesday morning. We'll be doing an anti-rain dance for you.


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## George Harris (Feb 18, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> All Aboard Washington posted an article (PDF) about one engineering solution that was used to avoid mudslides. It was added along the BNSF mainline near Castle Rock, WA, in 2000.
> Note, however, that a geologist who saw the original article says that the solution would not work for the slide areas between Seattle and Everett.
> 
> 
> ...


If the property owners understand anything of this, they should be screaming for the horizontal drilling to be done under their land.


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## CHamilton (Feb 18, 2013)

We're having "The Most Boring Winter in Seattle History"...except when it comes to mudslides.


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## Phil S (Feb 18, 2013)

CH and others - Thanks. The geologist's report really helps explain the problem. And since the mudslides and this thread seem to be immortal let me fill you in on my own lack of progress in comprehending this mess:

A month or so ago, I promised to write to Melanie Coon, info officer for the rail part of WDOT, to try to find out just what WDOT was planning to do. I did and what followed was one of the most unproductive and at times even unpleasant exchanges I have ever had with any govt agency. The final result was zero willingness to supply any information beyond the zero information on their web page. She first insisted that there were no documents describing the planned mud-slide work. I then asked about the FRA proposal by which they got the funding and she said that it was part of large multi-item FRA proposal following the rejection of FRA funds by you-all-know-which governors. According to Melanie, the proposal contained only a few pages relevant to the mudslide work. To get a copy I'd have to file a formal "Request for Document" and pay 50c/page or some such for the entire document. All of this required my sending at least 2 and often 3 e-mails to her before she even responded.

I think my mistake may have been to mention drainage from land-owners adjacent to the cliffs in my first e-mail. I wonder if WDOT is perhaps terrified that the land-owners might think that THEY might be required to foot even some of the bill for proper water drainage.

I agree that the property owners should be screaming for any solution that doesn't cost them any money. And I don't think getting them to understand this is going to be helped by withholding info from the public.


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## KrazyKoala (Feb 18, 2013)

And this is why the #8 has not left yet SEA>CHI?


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## Phil S (Feb 19, 2013)

KrazyKoala said:


> And this is why the #8 has not left yet SEA>CHI?


http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2998057 suggests "yes".


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## tomfuller (Feb 19, 2013)

Have any of the people who are studying the problem heard of gabions? http://www.gabions.net/

The state environmental agency that I worked for for over 35 years used them effectively in many places.


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## Phil S (Feb 19, 2013)

tomfuller said:


> Have any of the people who are studying the problem heard of gabions? http://www.gabions.net/The state environmental agency that I worked for for over 35 years used them effectively in many places.


Tom - Nobody who posts here seems to be able to find out much of anything about what's planned. But the geologist report posted earlier says that armoring the cliffs won't work and I'd see gabions as a form of armoring. I think that either the water needs to be diverted at its source, to storm drains that empty elsewhere, or run in huge culverts down the cliffs, under the tracks, and out into the ocean. Or just possibly, driving pipes in horizontally along the top of the impermeable zone might allow the water to be drained faster and in a controlled way (to avoid erosion). Inserting horizontal drain pipes can be tricky, however.


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## anir dendroica (Feb 19, 2013)

I wonder what density and length of horizontal drains would be required?

Given that the average modern oil well involves two miles of vertical drilling through solid rock and a further two miles of horizontal drilling at 10,000 foot depth, I have to assume this project is pretty easy from a technical perspective. I wonder if a "mineral rights" provision (subsurface drilling with no significant impact on the surface) could be used to move the project forward without having to deal too much with landowners?

Mark


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## CHamilton (Feb 19, 2013)

Good news for Jim...

Passenger train service resumes north of Seattle



> Passenger train service has resumed north of Seattle, following yet another mudslide.
> 
> BNSF spokesman Gus Melonas says service was suspended for 48 hours following a slide that covered the tracks with three feet of mud and debris in Everett on Sunday, but the tracks were back open for passenger service at 4 p.m. Tuesday.


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## George Harris (Feb 19, 2013)

anir dendroica said:


> I wonder what density and length of horizontal drains would be required?
> Given that the average modern oil well involves two miles of vertical drilling through solid rock and a further two miles of horizontal drilling at 10,000 foot depth, I have to assume this project is pretty easy from a technical perspective. I wonder if a "mineral rights" provision (subsurface drilling with no significant impact on the surface) could be used to move the project forward without having to deal too much with landowners?
> 
> Mark


the drilling is just the small matter of cost. Teh theory behind teh oil well is that the oil out of the well can be sold for enough to pay for the well. Not happening for side hill drilling to drain water.

"Mineral rights' are not something that automatically allows someone to do somthing under your property. In most places, unless they have been sold property ownership extends to the center of the earth in thoery, at least.


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## Bob Dylan (Feb 19, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Good news for Jim...
> 
> Passenger train service resumes north of Seattle
> 
> ...


   Fingers Crossed for Friday!


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## the_traveler (Feb 19, 2013)

You mean that you don't want to ride an Ambus to Canuckistan, Jim? :blush:

:giggle: :giggle: :giggle:


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## Phil S (Feb 20, 2013)

George Harris said:


> anir dendroica said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what density and length of horizontal drains would be required?
> ...


I agree with George's assessment, although I think the horizontal drilling costs would be low and covered easily by BNSF and WDOT. But,given that armoring the cliff won't work, then the land owners have to be involved -- willingly or not. I'd sure like to see some evidence that WDOT has some realistic plan. BNSF wrote a technical assessment of the problem. Anybody seen it or have any way to get a copy?


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## George Harris (Feb 20, 2013)

See https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publications/publications/0106019.pdf

This is a Washington State DOT report titled “Coastal Landsliding on Puget Sound: A review of landslides occurring between 1996 and 1999”.

While this may not seem all that relevant, it has a good deal of information on the nature of the soils in the problem areas. Page 21 of the PDF, which is page 7 of the report, has a nice typical cross section of the soils in the area which illustrates nicely the pervious layers over impervious layers that cause the problems. My quick non-geological expertise says that there is no single solution. Yes, saturation of the pervious layers referred to as Vashon Till and Esperance Sand sitting over the impervious Lawton Clay and “pre-Lawton sediments and bedrock” is a major factor in the slides, but it is not the total problem. Note that the same typical section drawing also shows a “potential deep failure surface” Notice how the dotted line showing the slope failure is in an arc. This sort of rotational failure is why many times you will see a rise in the ground at the bottom of a slope failure.

Horizontal drains at the interface between the sand and the clay will do a lot to reduce failures of the sand layers, but nothing for failures in the clay layer. For that slope anchoring or retaining walls with the foundations of both of these extending beyond the potential failure plane is necessary.

There are pictures of various slope failures throughout this document, including some that affect the railroad. See particularly Figures 19 and 21 for landslides over the railroad.

The following are some recent articles on the landslides. As has been said there is very little real information on what can be or should be or is intended to be done about the problem. Also, it is interesting to see that the same information and quotations can be found in most of these.

.

http://www.rtands.com/index.php/safety-training/rail-partners-explore-washington-state-mudslide-causes-solutions.html

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/BNSF-Amtrak-and-Sound-Transit-work-with-Washington-DOT-to-address-recurring-mudslides--35102

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2013/01/24_rail_mudslide_solutions.htm


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## CHamilton (Feb 21, 2013)

Hold onto your hat, Jim!



> Winter storm to blow into Washington Friday
> Forecasters say a strong winter storm will blow into Washington Friday with high winds and rain in Western Washington, heavy mountain snow, and mixed snow and rain in Eastern Washington.
> 
> The National Weather Service says the front will arrive on winds of 20 to 35 mph with 40 to 50 mph gusts. Peak gusts are expected Friday morning on the coast and north interior.
> ...


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## fairviewroad (Feb 21, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Hold onto your hat, Jim!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Should we make some wagers on when the next mudslide closure will happen? I'm going with 3:30 p.m. on Friday. :mellow:


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## montana mike (Feb 21, 2013)

Are these mudslides the cause for the almost 4 hour delay on the eastbound EB (#8) chugging thru Montana this AM?

:-(


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## anir dendroica (Feb 22, 2013)

Engine failure, not a mudslide issue.


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## Phil S (Feb 22, 2013)

George Harris said:


> See https://fortress.wa.gov/ecy/publications/publications/0106019.pdf
> This is a Washington State DOT report titled “Coastal Landsliding on Puget Sound: A review of landslides occurring between 1996 and 1999”.
> 
> While this may not seem all that relevant, it has a good deal of information on the nature of the soils in the problem areas. Page 21 of the PDF, which is page 7 of the report, has a nice typical cross section of the soils in the area which illustrates nicely the pervious layers over impervious layers that cause the problems. My quick non-geological expertise says that there is no single solution. Yes, saturation of the pervious layers referred to as Vashon Till and Esperance Sand sitting over the impervious Lawton Clay and “pre-Lawton sediments and bedrock” is a major factor in the slides, but it is not the total problem. Note that the same typical section drawing also shows a “potential deep failure surface” Notice how the dotted line showing the slope failure is in an arc. This sort of rotational failure is why many times you will see a rise in the ground at the bottom of a slope failure.
> ...


George -- Thanks very much for posting this. Haven;t had time yet to read it all but I definitelywill. - Phil


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## Phil S (Feb 22, 2013)

I read through the links in George’s post, especially https://fortress.wa....ons/0106019.pdf.

It’s certainly eye-opening in terms of the depths of human stupidity. As to the role of improper drainage, it says: “On-site septic systems and drainfields, which predominate along a bulk of Puget Sound's residential shoreline, can lead to increased infiltration, as can poorly planned or maintained irrigation systems.” But conspicuously absent is any quantitative assessment of the extent of this problem, any recommendation that such an assessment be done, or any recommendation that such problems be dealt with.

As for the news releases, yes indeed. This is exactly the sort of zero-content stuff that Melanie pointed me toward. As I said, I think WDOT is terrified of alerting cliff-top land-owners to the idea that they are a major part of the problem and might just have to be part of the solution.


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## Blackwolf (Feb 22, 2013)

WellTrained said:


> As for the news releases, yes indeed. This is exactly the sort of zero-content stuff that Melanie pointed me toward. As I said, I think WDOT is terrified of alerting cliff-top land-owners to the idea that they are a major part of the problem and might just have to be part of the solution.


Almost makes one wonder if someone could "help the situation along" by making up some of those campaign-style lawn signs and sticking them conspicuously through those neighborhoods involved. Nothing like driving home and seeing a sign saying MUDSLIDE WOES? YOU AND YOUR HOUSE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM! h34r:


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## fairviewroad (Feb 25, 2013)

fairviewroad said:


> Should we make some wagers on when the next mudslide closure will happen? I'm going with 3:30 p.m. on Friday. :mellow:


Obviously I was wrong. (thank goodness)


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## CHamilton (Feb 28, 2013)

Train engineers hope to reduce landslides after record-setting year


> After a historic winter season for landslides in the north sound, Burlington Northern Santa Fe is prepared to move forward with a solution.
> Since Thanksgiving, BNSF reports 200 landslides between Everett and Seattle. 170 Sound Transit train routes have been cancelled.
> BNSF engineers will present Sound Transit with fixes for a series of trouble spots that have repeatedly blocked the tracks.


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## fairviewroad (Feb 28, 2013)

"Train engineers hope to reduce landslides"

That's kind of a funny headline considering that the actual train engineers probably DO

hope to reduce landslides, but the engineers in this case are actually a different sort of

engineers.


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## Phil S (Feb 28, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Train engineers hope to reduce landslides after record-setting year
> 
> 
> > After a historic winter season for landslides in the north sound, Burlington Northern Santa Fe is prepared to move forward with a solution.
> ...


Cool. The presentation was this afternoon in open session so a video should be posted - maybe tomorrow? I'll try to scroll through the video, see if BNSF actually provided any detail on what they plan. If anybody beats me to it -- that'd be great!


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## Phil S (Mar 1, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Train engineers hope to reduce landslides after record-setting year
> Video for yesterday's Sound Transit BoD meeting still hasn't been posted but the KING5 article has been updated:
> 
> _Sixteen million dollars in proposed improvements are targeted to prevent mudslides along northern routes for Sound Transit trains between Everett and Seattle._
> ...


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## Phil S (Mar 2, 2013)

Sound Transit posted the video of their 2/28 BoD meeting that included a presentation by BNSF, but I couldn't get the video to play - just stops after a couple of minutes.

Here's some great footage of clean-up from KIRO http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/raw-cleanup-under-way-at-slide-scene/vmWyN/

With people building houses and planting lawns right up to the cliff edge...well, it ain't rocket science.

Here's a quote from RRForums:

_The BN/BNSF should have never severed the former Northern Pacific Renton-Snohomish secondary mainline, which could have been upgraded to serve as a backup mainline in the event the former GN mainline along Puget Sound is closed due to slides._

___________________
Bill Anderson, Mile Post 18 regular_

Google pointed me to an article on this from last November: http://crosscut.com/2012/11/13/transportation/111465/eastside-rail-humpty-dumpty-northwest-transportati/ Is that what Bill Anderson was referring to?


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## CHamilton (Mar 20, 2013)

> Mudslide trouble spots identified
> 
> Crews to work on six hillside areas between Everett and south of Mukilteo
> 
> ...


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## CHamilton (Mar 21, 2013)

From Amtrak_Cascades on Twitter:



> Train 513 delayed south of Everett (up to 30 mins) while track workers remove a downed tree
> Earlier downed tree west of Everett now causes 48 hr track closure between Everett & Seattle.
> 
> Train 513 will now return to Everett where buses will be available to Edmonds & Seattle.
> ...


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Mar 21, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> From Amtrak_Cascades on Twitter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So now just a downed tree causes the 48 hour closure, jeez,


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## CHamilton (Mar 21, 2013)

Well, apparently a slide caused the tree blockage.



> Mudslide cancels Sounder service between Seattle and Everett
> Sounder service between Seattle and Everett has been canceled until at least Monday morning after a mudslide blocked two tracks around 10:30 this morning, according to BNSF Railway.
> 
> The mudslide occurred between Mukilteo and Edmonds, the railroad reports. Under BNSF 48-hour safety rules, Sounder service will resume Monday morning if there are no further slides and the slopes adjacent to the tracks remain stable.
> ...


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Mar 21, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Well, apparently a slide caused the tree blockage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A little miss information from Amtrak then, not terribly surprising.


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## CHamilton (Mar 21, 2013)

> Amtrak_Cascades12:17pm via engage121
> 
> All passenger trains on the Vancouver, BC -Seattle corridor will be replaced by buses between Everett, Edmonds & Seattle, until 3/23/13 10am


Including EB #7(21) arriving on Sat., unless it's a couple of hours late.


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## CHamilton (Mar 23, 2013)

One of our AU friends who's on 7(21) coming into SEA this morning reports that they'll be waiting in Everett until the moratorium expires. The train is only 24 minutes late at Leavenworth, so that means they'll have to sit in EVT from 9:02 to 10:00. Oh well, I guess they'll have time for a leisurely breakfast.


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## CHamilton (Apr 12, 2013)

Via Publicola:



> Oregon Public Broadcasting reports that the epidemic of landslides that have repeatedly halted Amtrak, Sounder, and freight rail service between Seattle and Everett will likely get worse as the climate heats up and rainfall—which stresses soil and causes landslides—increases.In Washington, climate change is likely to lead to wetter winters—meaning more landslides even as Sound Transit tries to ramp up Sounder service and lawmakers consider the aforementioned coal terminal, which would dramatically increase train traffic along the landslide-prone route.


The above is actually a KUOW report (public radio in Seattle) but I can't find it on the KUOW website.


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## Big Green Chauvanist (Apr 12, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Via Publicola:
> 
> 
> > Oregon Public Broadcasting reports that the epidemic of landslides that have repeatedly halted Amtrak, Sounder, and freight rail service between Seattle and Everett will likely get worse as the climate heats up and rainfall—which stresses soil and causes landslides—increases.In Washington, climate change is likely to lead to wetter winters—meaning more landslides even as Sound Transit tries to ramp up Sounder service and lawmakers consider the aforementioned coal terminal, which would dramatically increase train traffic along the landslide-prone route.
> ...


Seems like a no-brainer to me. Just means there is no time to waste to implement a thorough fix to this issue, and not some half-baked rush job.


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## D T Nelson (Apr 12, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> Via Publicola:
> 
> 
> > Oregon Public Broadcasting reports that the epidemic of landslides that have repeatedly halted Amtrak, Sounder, and freight rail service between Seattle and Everett will likely get worse as the climate heats up and rainfall—which stresses soil and causes landslides—increases.In Washington, climate change is likely to lead to wetter winters—meaning more landslides even as Sound Transit tries to ramp up Sounder service and lawmakers consider the aforementioned coal terminal, which would dramatically increase train traffic along the landslide-prone route.
> ...


University of Washington meteorology professor Cliff Mass comments today on his blog about the rash of slides. He documents that the amount of rain falling in the Everett area has been declining over the past century.


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## CHamilton (May 3, 2013)

This isn't rail-related, but I thought (hoped!) it would make a nice ending to this depressingly-long thread.



> Bellingham school closes because of nice weather
> Friday is a "sun day" of sorts for the 205 students at Bellingham Christian School, a small private Christian school in Bellingham, Wash., about 90 miles north of Seattle.
> 
> "SCHOOL CANCELLED DUE TO GREAT WEATHER! WAHOOO!" the school's website announced Thursday night. "Yeah! It's a Sun Day today and everyone gets the day off from school."
> ...


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## yarrow (May 3, 2013)

CHamilton said:


> This isn't rail-related, but I thought (hoped!) it would make a nice ending to this depressingly-long thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good job, charlie. hopefully one of these years you can retire from being master of the mudslide thread


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## montana mike (May 3, 2013)

A good chuckle and smile out of that one!


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