# Airport Shuttles



## TheCrescent (Nov 22, 2022)

How about this for an Amtrak service?

Airport shuttles: trains that would run from cities that are a short distance (at most two hours) from major airports. 

They would stop at areas with lots of free parking and would have TSA security screeners to screen passengers and luggage before they board the train. The car with those passengers would be sealed, and the trains would then stop at airport stations, allowing passengers in the sealed cars to go straight to their gates, and luggage would be transferred straight to the airline.

So taking the train would save parking fees, the hassle of driving and time at the airport.

I’m thinking that a route from uptown Charlotte, stopping at the Charlotte airport, Spartanburg, SC, GSP Airport, Greenville, SC, north suburban Atlanta and the Atlanta airport would be one route (if the tracks are already close enough to the Atlanta airport).

These trains could also be used by non-airport passengers but those non-airport passengers couldn’t enter the sealed cars.

American Airlines started bus service like this from two smaller places to the Philadelphia airport. But the Amtrak-United arrangement with Newark airport didn’t last.

Would this work? Or is this something more for a bus route?


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## ascii42 (Nov 22, 2022)

The Amtrak Connects US map does show the Atlanta-Macon-Savannah route having a stop at Atlanta's airport.


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## AmtrakBlue (Nov 22, 2022)

Talk to the states.


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## TheCrescent (Nov 22, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Talk to the states.


True although I’m thinking that a service like this should be added only if it’s profitable.


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## jis (Nov 22, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> True although I’m thinking that a service like this should be added only if it’s profitable.


You know? In the New York area I have imagined for a while that a core service between Newark Airport Station (connection to Newark Airport Airtrain) and Jamaica with stops at Newark Penn, Secaucus Jct. New York Penn Station, a future Sunnyside Station, Woodside and Jamaica (connection to JFK Airtrain) would be a tremendously useful service maybe operating every 15 minutes or 30 mins. Realistically this cannot happen until at least the new Hudson Tubes are in place. Also for practical purposes the turning points of the service probably will need to be at Rahway at the NJ end and somewhere like Hempstead so as not to clog up Jamaica and EWR.

But I would not visualize this to be a service run by Amtrak. It is not in their bailiwick of providing intercity service. I would expect the Port Authority to at least fund it if not run it. It could be run under contract by the likes of MTA and/or NJT jointly.


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 22, 2022)

Is the goal operating airport to airport?


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## jis (Nov 22, 2022)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Is the goal operating airport to airport?


No. Connecting Airport to city center and inner suburban hinterland. In case of New York it can also double as an efficient airport to airport service and provide ease of travel to JFK from NJ and EWR from LI, something that is pretty tough at present. It is strictly a local/suburban service and not an intercity service in this case.


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## jiml (Nov 22, 2022)

An interesting idea, but likely a logistical nightmare. How does one get from the train to the gate without re-clearing security - even at airports with existing train service (e.g. BWI)? As is, at some airports you can't even change terminals without re-clearing security and it's not like a train would serve every terminal at an airport versus a central station. The AA bus mentioned previously could go gate-to-gate.


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## jiml (Nov 22, 2022)

jis said:


> You know? In the New York area I have imagined for a while that a core service between Newark Airport Station (connection to Newark Airport Airtrain) and Jamaica with stops at Newark Penn, Secaucus Jct. New York Penn Station, a future Sunnyside Station, Woodside and Jamaica (connection to JFK Airtrain) would be a tremendously useful service maybe operating every 15 minutes or 30 mins. Realistically this cannot happen until at least the new Hudson Tubes are in place. Also for practical purposes the turning points of the service probably will need to be at Rahway at the NJ end and somewhere like Hempstead so as not to clog up Jamaica and EWR.
> 
> But I would not visualize this to be a service run by Amtrak. It is not in their bailiwick of providing intercity service. I would expect the Port Authority to at least fund it if not run it. It could be run under contract by the likes of MTA and/or NJT jointly.


There is no place that some kind of fast transit connecting the three major airports would work better than NYC. Having done EWR-JFK or JFK-LGA several times, the relief of not having to deal with traffic in a taxi or on a bus would make the service a success. The two airlines I use most often love to connect through different airports in New York. I can't really think of another North American situation that's similar - is MDW-ORD ever in play? I've done BUR-LAX a couple of times but never a planned connection. IIRC even the two Washington airports now have a Metro option.


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## TheCrescent (Nov 22, 2022)

jiml said:


> An interesting idea, but likely a logistical nightmare. How does one get from the train to the gate without re-clearing security - even at airports with existing train service (e.g. BWI)? As is, at some airports you can't even change terminals without re-clearing security and it's not like a train would serve every terminal at an airport versus a central station. The AA bus mentioned previously could go gate-to-gate.


True. At least in Charlotte, the Norfolk Southern line goes across the airport property so I figure that having a train-to-concourse connection is doable. But it does require some adaptations at the airport.


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## WWW (Nov 22, 2022)

Might possibly work - "BUT" the complexity of managing a secure car from a TSA controlled zone to another is something else
and obviously would entail an EXPENSE.
The least little interruption or interference could potentially cancel out a condition of sterile security !

Good idea for may be 5 10 years down the tracks.


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 22, 2022)

I’m not sure what the appeal of TSA check before boarding the train is?


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## WWW (Nov 22, 2022)

Think of it on a small scale at an airport where you have passed through the TSA security point and are free to move about
the air side controlled zone. Your flight leaves from a remote satellite location in that airport - your take the shuttle train to
the satellite and board your flight. 
Now on a much larger scale - you are at one airport with the train service is available to go to another airport.
These two airports have TSA secure zones - You pass the security checkpoint and go to the big scale shuttle train that takes
you to the other airport arriving in a TSA secure zone - board you flight and on your way - Now about the checked luggage that 
creates another issue problem to work out - your carry-on luggage passed muster and is with you - the checked luggage presents
another handling issue. 
In any event the shuttle rail travel between airports must go out of a TSA secure sterile zone and creates problems if it is not
non-stop and uninterrupted getting to the other airport security zone. 
East coast airports and a few in the west coast could benefit by this - even some Chicago area themes (but certainly not at this time).
Limited times of operation - perhaps (armed) TSA security officials on the train movement while between airports and host of
other things - as previously note - Good idea for may be 5 10 years down the tracks -
AND any of this is going to need DADDY WARBUCKS to pay for it - i.e. you the consumer of such an enterprise !


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## Trogdor (Nov 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> How about this for an Amtrak service?
> 
> Airport shuttles: trains that would run from cities that are a short distance (at most two hours) from major airports.
> 
> ...



I don’t see the overall benefit of investing significant money in the infrastructure and logistics of TSA-sealed railcars and checkpoints at outer rail stations (with associated major staffing costs) just so a handful of motorists can save on parking fees.

Trains connecting to airports…definitely a good idea. From city centers, sure, but that’s the function of a local transit system. And that’s also to provide more direct connectivity to key destinations or areas close to where people live. It’s not to serve as a park & ride (park & rides are actually some of the worst possible investment of transit dollars, but that’s a discussion for another topic). From other areas around the region, would be good for replacing short-haul flights. But a TSA-sealed car on an intercity train would be either a waste of equipment when it’s not taking people to the airport, or would require a ton of extra resources to ensure that it’s sterile before the first airline passenger got on board.



WWW said:


> Think of it on a small scale at an airport where you have passed through the TSA security point and are free to move about
> the air side controlled zone. Your flight leaves from a remote satellite location in that airport - your take the shuttle train to
> the satellite and board your flight.
> Now on a much larger scale - you are at one airport with the train service is available to go to another airport.
> ...



Even in New York, the number of folks transferring between airports would likely not justify having a dedicated, ”airside” train connection between them. Virtually no place else in the US would even come close. There’s simply no reason to book an itinerary that requires an airport change for same-day connecting travel.

Using Chicago as an example, the number of passengers who would have a reason to connect between Midway and O’Hare is extremely low. If the idea is to fly a lower fare flight…the cost of the transfer could easily eliminate any hypothetical savings (Southwest Airlines isn’t *that* cheap these days, and pretty much everybody, including Southwest, also flies to O’Hare).

On the west coast, there’s no place you can’t get to out of LAX that you can get to instead from SNA or Burbank. Similarly, SFO vs. Oakland or San Jose. And if the concern is airport capacity, finally finishing CAHSR will put a huge dent in demand for intra-California flights.


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## jis (Nov 23, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> I don’t see the overall benefit of investing significant money in the infrastructure and logistics of TSA-sealed railcars and checkpoints at outer rail stations (with associated major staffing costs) just so a handful of motorists can save on parking fees.
> 
> Trains connecting to airports…definitely a good idea. From city centers, sure, but that’s the function of a local transit system. And that’s also to provide more direct connectivity to key destinations or areas close to where people live. It’s not to serve as a park & ride (park & rides are actually some of the worst possible investment of transit dollars, but that’s a discussion for another topic). From other areas around the region, would be good for replacing short-haul flights. But a TSA-sealed car on an intercity train would be either a waste of equipment when it’s not taking people to the airport, or would require a ton of extra resources to ensure that it’s sterile before the first airline passenger got on board.
> 
> ...



What I was suggesting upthread had nothing to do with TSA and sealed cars and what not. I agree that is not worth it and it will be completely unworkable anyway in trains that serve places like Newark and New York Penn Station. The return on the investment will be inadequate to justify it.

Incidentally, when Heathrow Express started they allowed baggage checkin at Paddington, but that was the only thing that was sealed. no sealed train from Paddington to Heathrow other than that. I used it a couple of times. And then came 9/11 and that was the end of even that. It is safe to say that in a post 9/11 world where random small scale terrorism is on the rise this sealed car stuff isn't going to happen unless local terrorism gets so bad that trains have to be sealed in general anyway. But that is a separate discussion.

There was a plan in the early days of revamped Penn Station when United had a checkin counter there, to allow baggage checkin there. But that also went bye bye with 9/11 even before it started.


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## Willbridge (Nov 24, 2022)

Well before 9/11 there was an air check in counter at the San Francisco Hilton for buses to SFO.

When DIA was planned, there was talk of having a check-in at Denver Union Station. That evolved into the rail station level check-in and baggage check at the airport itself.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 24, 2022)

Another possibility for an airport to airport link is Boston to Providence (TF Green which is actually in Warwick RI). The MBTA commuter rail connects the two but not on weekends and requires bus shuttles at each end, the Boston end being the sort of BRT referred to as the Silver Line. So it would require some beefing up to be a useful airport to airport shuttle.


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## railiner (Nov 24, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> Well before 9/11 there was an air check in counter at the San Francisco Hilton for buses to SFO.
> 
> When DIA was planned, there was talk of having a check-in at Denver Union Station. That evolved into the rail station level check-in and baggage check at the airport itself.


Back in the fifties, you used to be able to check in, including your bags, at the former East and West Side Airlines Terminals in Manhattan. The bags would be handled on the scheduled Carey Transportation buses.


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## WWW (Nov 24, 2022)

Baltimore (BWI) and Milwaukee (MKE/MKA) are examples of Amtrak station stops near the airport terminal.
In both of these cases - still outside the TSA security zone - but certainly convenient for train to air connections or v-v


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## MARC Rider (Nov 24, 2022)

WWW said:


> Baltimore (BWI) and Milwaukee (MKE/MKA) are examples of Amtrak station stops near the airport terminal.
> In both of these cases - still outside the TSA security zone - but certainly convenient for train to air connections or v-v


BWI is good 5 to 10 minute free shuttle bus ride in traffic from the train station to the airport terminal, and the shuttles run on an approximate 10 minute headway. I've done it, but it's not the most seamless connection.


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## jis (Nov 24, 2022)

Newark has had a frequent, every 4-5 minutes Airtrain connecting the EWR station to the terminals, but that is on its way out to be replaced by a different higher capacity and faster Airtrain which is little larger than a toy. We'll see how that goes. But until then access from the station to terminals will go through many changes.


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## leccy (Nov 25, 2022)

Here's one for the fantasy network page: Staten Island to Newark Airport


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## Fenway (Nov 25, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Another possibility for an airport to airport link is Boston to Providence (TF Green which is actually in Warwick RI). The MBTA commuter rail connects the two but not on weekends and requires bus shuttles at each end, the Boston end being the sort of BRT referred to as the Silver Line. So it would require some beefing up to be a useful airport to airport shuttle.


I don't know who dropped the ball on this - MassDOT or RIDot 

In 10-plus years the station has gotten no traction. Another wasted opportunity.


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## cirdan (Nov 25, 2022)

WWW said:


> Might possibly work - "BUT" the complexity of managing a secure car from a TSA controlled zone to another is something else
> and obviously would entail an EXPENSE.
> The least little interruption or interference could potentially cancel out a condition of sterile security !
> 
> Good idea for may be 5 10 years down the tracks.



I don't think the security side can be that daunting. There are after all already "sealed" trains such as the Eurostar in which customs and immigration checks have been done pre-boarding, but theoretically it would be possible to board or leave the train if under some special conditions the train stopped in a place that was not anticipated and for some reason somebody managed to open the door.

Not even airport security is 100% sterile but they are probably happy if they can cover certain percentage of cases that approaches 100%. An ex girlfried of mine was staff at an airside shop at a major airport and said there were crafty ways to get around security as far as smuggling in or out non permitted goods was concerned, only I think I should not mention details here on a public forum. I am sure TSA are aware of these but assume the risk is manageable and consider the alternative too costly or disruptive.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 25, 2022)

Fenway said:


> I don't know who dropped the ball on this - MassDOT or RIDot
> 
> In 10-plus years the station has gotten no traction. Another wasted opportunity.


I assume RIDOT since I believe they are subsidizing the service south of Providence.

Not sure what the current purpose of the TF Green stop is. If it was for people working at the airport they would also need 7 day a week service. I guess for people living in the Warwick area commuting into Providence? There must be at least a dozen of those


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## MARC Rider (Nov 25, 2022)

cirdan said:


> Not even airport security is 100% sterile


Yeah, isn't that a staple of bloggers and local TV News investigative reporters who very easily manage to smuggle all sorts of inappropriate things to the "secured" airside part of the terminal?


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## MARC Rider (Nov 25, 2022)

What airports in the US have the rail connections directly in the airport terminal. As far as I know, there are subway stations at both Chicago airports, the Metro at DC National, and now Dulles, though I think there's a walk outside from the Dulles station into the terminal, and the SEPTA Regional Rail Airport Line in Philly. I'm not sure if there are any direct inside-the-terminal intercity rail connections in the US, but they could do one very easily by extending some Keystone trains from Harrisburg to run from 30th St. to the airport. I guess they could run some Northeast Regionals, at least from New York, too.


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## jis (Nov 25, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> What airports in the US have the rail connections directly in the airport terminal. As far as I know, there are subway stations at both Chicago airports, the Metro at DC National, and now Dulles, though I think there's a walk outside from the Dulles station into the terminal, and the SEPTA Regional Rail Airport Line in Philly. I'm not sure if there are any direct inside-the-terminal intercity rail connections in the US, but they could do one very easily by extending some Keystone trains from Harrisburg to run from 30th St. to the airport. I guess they could run some Northeast Regionals, at least from New York, too.


There is no walk outside at Dulles. There is a pedestrian tunnel with travellators connecting the station to the terminal.

You forgot BART at SFO and even BART access to Oakland via the people mover, somewhat similar in spirit to EWR from Amtrak/NJT via Airtrain. There is Miami with APM from the Miami Intermodal Center to the airport terminal. Orlando will soon have a train to air transfer via pedestrian walkway at Terminal C of Orlando International, and via APM to Terminal A and B.

Actually I much prefer having a convenient APM over a mile long corridor connecting the rail station to the terminal - I am looking at you Heathrow. I will get to experience inter-terminal transfer at Heathrow in March, arriving by Aegean, departing by United.


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## Fenway (Nov 26, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I assume RIDOT since I believe they are subsidizing the service south of Providence.
> 
> Not sure what the current purpose of the TF Green stop is. If it was for people working at the airport they would also need 7 day a week service. I guess for people living in the Warwick area commuting into Providence? There must be at least a dozen of those


If every Boston/Providence MBTA train serviced TF Green 7 days a week the station becomes viable IMHO

20 years ago both TF Green and Manchester-Boston were becoming viable alternatives to Logan but then Southwest got into Logan when ATA went belly up and that hurt both MHT and PVD. MHT was actually running a free shuttle to Sullivan MBTA every 2 hours 24/7.


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## railiner (Nov 26, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I'm not sure if there are any direct inside-the-terminal intercity rail connections in the US, but they could do one very easily by extending some Keystone trains from Harrisburg to run from 30th St. to the airport. I guess they could run some Northeast Regionals, at least from New York, too.




Amtrak used to run from the Philly airport to Atlantic City…


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## jis (Nov 26, 2022)

At present it might make sense to extend the Philadelphia 30th St. originator/terminator Keystones to be extended to Philadelphia Airport.


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## jiml (Nov 26, 2022)

jis said:


> At present it might make sense to extend the Philadelphia 30th St. originator/terminator Keystones to be extended to Philadelphia Airport.


Does the track exist?


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## MARC Rider (Nov 26, 2022)

jiml said:


> Does the track exist?


Yes, it's currently being used by the SEPTA Airport line, which is basically a branch off of the NEC south of 30th St. Sta.


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## jis (Nov 26, 2022)

jiml said:


> Does the track exist?


Yes, though the crossovers could be improved for better speed across them.

The current SEPTA Airport Service does not use crossovers from the NEC to the Airport Line south of 30th St. since it operates out of the upper level. But it is possible to get to the Airport Line from the lower level, though a bit awkwardly.


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## crescent-zephyr (Nov 26, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> What airports in the US have the rail connections directly in the airport terminal. As far as I know, there are subway stations at both Chicago airports, the Metro at DC National, and now Dulles, though I think there's a walk outside from the Dulles station into the terminal, and the SEPTA Regional Rail Airport Line in Philly. I'm not sure if there are any direct inside-the-terminal intercity rail connections in the US, but they could do one very easily by extending some Keystone trains from Harrisburg to run from 30th St. to the airport. I guess they could run some Northeast Regionals, at least from New York, too.


St. Louis and Seattle have nice connections. Seattle is a bit of a walk but most large airports require long walks to get anywhere haha.


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## WWW (Nov 26, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> *What airports in the US have the rail connections directly in the airport terminal. As far as I know, there are subway stations at both Chicago airports*, the Metro at DC National, and now Dulles, though I think there's a walk outside from the Dulles station into the terminal, and the SEPTA Regional Rail Airport Line in Philly. I'm not sure if there are any direct inside-the-terminal intercity rail connections in the US, but they could do one very easily by extending some Keystone trains from Harrisburg to run from 30th St. to the airport. I guess they could run some Northeast Regionals, at least from New York, too.


Chicago O'Hare {ORD} (Blue Line - Fare $5 - 18 stops about 45 minutes travel time) leaves much to be desired after arriving downtown
2 blocks from Union Station - the ascent from 3 chambers below ground to street level with no elevators or escalators -
and then the street level approach to the station wrong side again a bunch of stairs.

The Midway {MDW} (Orange Line - Fare $2.50 - 10 stops about 25-30 minutes travel time) arrives on the wrong side of the Chicago River
3 some blocks from the station and it is a zoo to try and find an elevator if mobility impaired.
And hang on to your hats and gear crossing the bridge over the Chicago - it is not called the Windy City without reason.


Minneapolis/St Paul has light rail (Blue Line) running from the Mall of America to the International Airport (MSP)
and continuing to downtown Minneapolis where the junction with the St Paul leg (Green Line) to the Union Depot.
A cantankerous confounding complex conundrum of how to get from A to B.
A genuine day/nightmare for those with mobility issues negotiating the insane maze. 

Even if you do this a few times it is awkward !


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 26, 2022)

While not directly in the Terminals @ DFW , DART from Dallas and the New Tex Rail from Ft. Worth make for easy access to/from the Terminals and the People Mover that gets you between Terminals.

It's probably my favorite, they've really done a great job with Rail in the Vehicle Mecca of the DFW Megaplex!


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## bonzoesc (Nov 26, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> What airports in the US have the rail connections directly in the airport terminal.


MIA has Metrorail, commuter Tri-Rail, Greyhound bus, a never-used station intended for Amtrak, and airport rental cars all hooked up to the terminal complex by an APM, but none of the other South Florida airports have anything like that.


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## Fenway (Nov 27, 2022)

Cleveland's RTA Red Line airport connection works very well









Airport station (GCRTA) - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





The biggest failure is LaGuardia Airport in Queens and when you dive deep it traces back to Robert Moses. 

The obvious solution was extending the N Line from Astoria–Ditmars Boulevard to LGA but.............................................

Boston wound up with a decent transit connection by geographic accident in the 50s when the Blue Line was extended and now with the Silver Line going to South Station to the terminals it works.

The total collapse of the taxicab industry in favor of rideshare options has complicated things at many airports.


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## blueman271 (Nov 27, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> What airports in the US have the rail connections directly in the airport terminal. As far as I know, there are subway stations at both Chicago airports, the Metro at DC National, and now Dulles, though I think there's a walk outside from the Dulles station into the terminal, and the SEPTA Regional Rail Airport Line in Philly. I'm not sure if there are any direct inside-the-terminal intercity rail connections in the US, but they could do one very easily by extending some Keystone trains from Harrisburg to run from 30th St. to the airport. I guess they could run some Northeast Regionals, at least from New York, too.


MARTA in Atlanta has a direct connection to the terminal. Simply walk off the train and go downstairs and you are in the domestic terminal.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 28, 2022)

Fenway said:


> The biggest failure is LaGuardia Airport in Queens and when you dive deep it traces back to Robert Moses.
> 
> The obvious solution was extending the N Line from Astoria–Ditmars Boulevard to LGA but.............................................


A number of options are being considered. Former governor Cuomo had proposed a Laguardia Airtrain similar in concept to the one to JFK. This has been put on hold by the current governor as other alternatives such as the N line extension are being studied. There is the usual NIMBY opposition to an El extension.


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## Willbridge (Nov 29, 2022)

Denver's A-Line is back to its standard service levels after four weeks of single-tracking for MOW work.





RTD - Regional Transportation District







www.rtd-denver.com








The R-Line, which connects the southeast metro business parks with the A-Line at Peoria Station, is due to re-open on Nov. 29th after a safety shutdown following two derailments at the tight curve accessing Aurora Town Center.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 23, 2022)

TheCrescent said:


> How about this for an Amtrak service?
> 
> Airport shuttles: trains that would run from cities that are a short distance (at most two hours) from major airports.
> 
> ...





TheCrescent said:


> True. At least in Charlotte, the Norfolk Southern line goes across the airport property so I figure that having a train-to-concourse connection is doable. But it does require some adaptations at the airport.



Where have we heard that idea before? Oh yes that was me who came up with it and did a very long treatise about it that broke into the details. Of course now I have access to the manifests for those flights to see who is connecting to go where. And there are some very short city pairs out of Columbia that would make a good train route. 

The E concourse which is the regional concourse is now only 560 Ft off the track that diverges into the intermodal yard. Honestly I've dreamed of putting in an underground walkway to the track with it's own security checkpoint and having a train station on the grassy hill on the opposite side of the mainline. There is no way to do TSA for the train as it's too easy to get around and you can't guarantee cars stay sealed. It would work really well for the GRV/SPB/GSP-RGH/RDU via GRO/GSO run and it would free up some capacity that we desperately need there. So I would definitely support this. You could even do Columbia (CLB/CAE) but would need to add a leg to the Charlotte junction to make it doable. We need more people thinking like this to really improve our multi-modal transport modes.


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