# Metro North Fleet



## Andrew (Nov 23, 2015)

Metro North recently began using M8 rail cars in their fleet just a few years a go.

Why didn't they go with double decker coaches being pulled or pushed by electric locomotives for service between Grand Central Terminal in New York City and New Haven, Connecticut?


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## Thirdrail7 (Nov 23, 2015)

Andrew said:


> Metro North recently began using M8 rail cars in their fleet just a few years a go.
> 
> Why didn't they go with double decker coaches being pulled or pushed by electric locomotives for service between Grand Central Terminal in New York City and New Haven, Connecticut?



Metro-North doesn't have a large fleet of locomotives. A bunch of double decker cars wouldn't do much good without an equally large order of locomotives.


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## CCC1007 (Nov 23, 2015)

They seem to be familiar with emu operation, so why change what works?


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## Andrew (Nov 23, 2015)

Single-level coaches should continue to operate between Grand Central Terminal, and Stamford, Connecticut.

But, a 10 double decker coach train with a Sprinter Locomotive at the North End of the train-set could have potentially increased seating capacity by 20% or so--which is a lot during Weekday Rush Hours and during busy Holiday weekends.


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## Dutchrailnut (Nov 24, 2015)

Sprinters do not operate of third rail and even if they could you would need at least one on each end of train to prevent gapping.

the Locomotive hauled trains are also about 60% slower getting out of each station.


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## Andrew (Nov 24, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Sprinters do not operate of third rail and even if they could you would need at least one on each end of train to prevent gapping.
> 
> the Locomotive hauled trains are also about 60% slower getting out of each station.


But if they pulled double decker coaches, that could potentially do a lot to solve rush hour crowding issues as well as increase ticket revenue. Perhaps the MTA already considered this option?


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## CCC1007 (Nov 24, 2015)

I would guess that if they wanted to go double decker they would use something similar to the cars used in the metra electric district, specifically the new ones.


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## jis (Nov 24, 2015)

CCC1007 said:


> I would guess that if they wanted to go double decker they would use something similar to the cars used in the metra electric district, specifically the new ones.


Unlikely. Since none of them could get into Grand Central. Actually I would say absolutely zero chance. Also they would have to be modified to operate off of third rail.

The only double deckers that have a chance of fitting through the tunnels into Grand Central Terminal are the NJT MLVs. If they ever create a power car for those that operates on third rail that would work. NJT is in the process of getting power cars for those powered by overhead catenary for their own use.


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## Andrew (Nov 24, 2015)

jis said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> > I would guess that if they wanted to go double decker they would use something similar to the cars used in the metra electric district, specifically the new ones.
> ...


So, what you are saying that if Metro North does end up using double decker coaches, that they would go with EMU coaches--not ones with locomotives pulling or pushing them?


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## jis (Nov 24, 2015)

Well they already have push-pulls with dual mode locomotives providing power. What they have proposed so far, specially on the New Haven Line, is to get MLV-like cars to replace or augment the current Comet sets that are used in push pull service.

If NJT goes through with the development of MLV EMUs, which they are seriously working on, then that opens up a possibility of creating a third rail version of those MLV power cars. But there are lots of if ... if ... if involved.


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## Dutchrailnut (Nov 24, 2015)

except if a dual mode diesel gaps you use the 12 cylinders to get out of gap, with a all electric power car your up the creek without....


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## Andrew (Nov 24, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Sprinters do not operate of third rail and even if they could you would need at least one on each end of train to prevent gapping.
> 
> the Locomotive hauled trains are also about 60% slower getting out of each station.


I'd bet that the engineers that Siemens employs are intelligent enough to figure out how to manufacture a third rail/catenary electric Cities Sprinter Locomotive.

And, if these same locomotives could pull double decker coaches, there is potentially an enormous amount of additional revenue that Metro North could receive over the 35 or perhaps 40ish years that the coaches would be in revenue service.


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## jis (Nov 24, 2015)

Oh brother. Here we go again. People with zero understanding of the issues betting away on intelligence


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## Andrew (Nov 25, 2015)

jis said:


> Well they already have push-pulls with dual mode locomotives providing power. What they have proposed so far, specially on the New Haven Line, is to get MLV-like cars to replace or augment the current Comet sets that are used in push pull service.
> 
> If NJT goes through with the development of MLV EMUs, which they are seriously working on, then that opens up a possibility of creating a third rail version of those MLV power cars. But there are lots of if ... if ... if involved.


Wouldn't the proposed MLV's also get used on the Hudson Line to and from Poughkeepsie, New York? Also, does Metro North operate their locomotives in diesel or electric mode between Grand Central and the start of the high speed tracks after the switches at 57th street?

I seem to remember reading in 2010 that MLV's can't have third rail shoes...http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/nyregion/16double.html?_r=0

So, I guess the M8 replacements will not be able to have electric locomotive train-sets with 10 double decker coaches--which is what I was originally picturing and is what is currently very common between NYC and Trenton, NJ, on New Jersey Transit.


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## Andrew (Nov 25, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> except if a dual mode diesel gaps you use the 12 cylinders to get out of gap, with a all electric power car your up the creek without....


What do you mean?


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## MattW (Nov 26, 2015)

Andrew said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> > except if a dual mode diesel gaps you use the 12 cylinders to get out of gap, with a all electric power car your up the creek without....
> ...


In other words, if the locomotive loses power due to not being on a third rail segment, the engine can be briefly activated to move the train back onto the third rail. With an all-electric locomotive, there is no "backup" if that should happen. A solution is either battery backup or a really small diesel engine, just enough to shove the train onto the next gap, but that adds complexity and I don't think has ever really been done.


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## Andrew (Nov 27, 2015)

MattW said:


> Andrew said:
> 
> 
> > Dutchrailnut said:
> ...


Maybe use energy storage?


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## jebr (Nov 27, 2015)

Battery backup is energy storage...


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## Andrew (Dec 1, 2015)

1.What is the typical length of train-sets?

2. When traveling southbound into the Park Avenue Tunnels, how does an engineer in a cab car put the Genesis Locomotive into E-mode from diesel?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 2, 2015)

Bombardier trains are usuall 7 cars plus engine only one train has 8 cars , cars are 85 feet long engine is 69 feet.

Engineer has selector switch in cab car 3 positions , Electric - Off - Diesel


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## Andrew (Dec 2, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Bombardier trains are usuall 7 cars plus engine only one train has 8 cars , cars are 85 feet long engine is 69 feet.
> 
> Engineer has selector switch in cab car 3 positions , Electric - Off - Diesel


Thanks, but what about New Haven line Trains?

Also, within the locomotive, does the engineer have a manual giving him or her specifications of the train length and locomotive height and length, etc?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 4, 2015)

all cars are 85 feet and max train length is 10 or 12 but most trains ar 7 or 8 cars.

no, qualifications dictate knowledge of what your doing on railroad.

The yard sheet and conductor are suppose to inform engineer of car count and unusual circumstances.


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## Andrew (Dec 5, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> all cars are 85 feet and max train length is 10 or 12 but most trains ar 7 or 8 cars.
> 
> no, qualifications dictate knowledge of what your doing on railroad.
> 
> The yard sheet and conductor are suppose to inform engineer of car count and unusual circumstances.


Do engineers who drive the Genesis Locomotive wear hearing protection?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 5, 2015)

trains are not driven but it is called operate a train.

and yes engineers have choice to do so, ear plugs are available.


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## Andrew (Dec 8, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> trains are not driven but it is called operate a train.
> 
> and yes engineers have choice to do so, ear plugs are available.


If you had to predict, do you believe that the Genesis Locomotive will get replaced by the Siemens' Charger, or Bombardier ALP-45DP?


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## jis (Dec 8, 2015)

For use by Metro North, neither, since neither is capable of operating off of third rail.


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## Andrew (Dec 8, 2015)

It is my understanding that these locomotives could be equipped for third rail.


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## jis (Dec 8, 2015)

Could you provide a credible citation from either the manufacturers or any potential customers from which you might have gotten such an impression? You question though did not say anything about any modifications. It was about the current locomotives identified by their specific type names.


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## Andrew (Dec 8, 2015)

jis said:


> Could you provide a credible citation from either the manufacturers or any potential customers from which you might have gotten such an impression? You question though did not say anything about any modifications. It was about the current locomotives identified by their specific type names.


See the last two pages of http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/Revised_DM_DC_3rd_Rail_Req_Doc_for_E-Board__Approved_-_1-6-15.pdf


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## jis (Dec 8, 2015)

But since your question was specifically about current existing locomotives the answer is still "no". The rest is speculation and your guess is as good as mine until an actual order is placed by someone.


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## Andrew (Dec 8, 2015)

jis said:


> But since your question was specifically about current existing locomotives the answer is still "no". The rest is speculation and your guess is as good as mine until an actual order is placed by someone.





jis said:


> But since your question was specifically about current existing locomotives the answer is still "no". The rest is speculation and your guess is as good as mine until an actual order is placed by someon


And an actual order will get placed by someone at some point.

I bet that the engineers who are employed at Siemens and Bombardier are intelligent enough to figure out how to make a third rail capable locomotive version of the Charger and ALP45-DP.


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## Eric S (Dec 8, 2015)

But until bids are solicited this is just idle speculation. Whenever that happens, then we'll see which manufacturers offer which models.


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 9, 2015)

actually LIRR, MN and Amtrak are working with Siemens to see if dual mode charger is feasible.

with Charger being AC propulsion and lower than 14 feet it does make for attractive candidate.

making a AC traction locomotive into third rail dual mode is not that much of technical challenge.


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## jis (Dec 9, 2015)

It is even simpler if the DC link voltage is the same as the third rail voltage. But I suspect actually the DC link voltage is probably something like double or three times the third rail voltage. But steppping up DC through an alternator - transformer - rectifier chain or some other interesting power circuitry is indeed not that big a deal. As long as they are not also required to operate off of OHE it should not even require any more space, since the main transformer can be dispensed with to make room for the DC circuitry, and even if a transformer is used for upping the voltage from third rail a much lighter one can be used with a much higher frequency alternator to drive it.

So in principle almost any OHE locomotive can be converted to a DC third rail locomotive as long as you don't ask it to also be capable of working with OHE AC. For the latter you will generally need extra real estate for all the additional equipment for supporting both electrical modes. BTW the dual model diesel-OHE locomotives that exist are at the bleeding edge of permitted axle loading on the NEC.


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## Andrew (Dec 9, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> actually LIRR, MN and Amtrak are working with Siemens to see if dua
> 
> l mode charger is feasible.
> 
> ...


I thought this was the case.

The Charger Locomotive appears to be quite popular--and I read that this locomotive is 12 and a half feet tall. If MNR and LIRR buy these locomotives, then will there be a roof piece to make sure they are the same height as the Multi-Level Coaches these train sets use?



jis said:


> It is even simpler if the DC link voltage is the same as the third rail voltage. But I suspect actually the DC link voltage is probably something like double or three times the third rail voltage. But steppping up DC through an alternator - transformer - rectifier chain or some other interesting power circuitry is indeed not that big a deal. As long as they are not also required to operate off of OHE it should not even require any more space, since the main transformer can be dispensed with to make room for the DC circuitry, and even if a transformer is used for upping the voltage from third rail a much lighter one can be used with a much higher frequency alternator to drive it.
> 
> So in principle almost any OHE locomotive can be converted to a DC third rail locomotive as long as you don't ask it to also be capable of working with OHE AC. For the latter you will generally need extra real estate for all the additional equipment for supporting both electrical modes. BTW the dual model diesel-OHE locomotives that exist are at the bleeding edge of permitted axle loading on the NEC.


Why is AC Traction an advantage?


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## jis (Dec 9, 2015)

Are you talking about AC traction as in the current that the engine collects? Or are you talking about the type of motor that it has?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 9, 2015)

AC traction has far less maintenance of traction motors, no carbon brushes other than two small exiter brushes on slip rings, they last for years.

better control of slip and spin, better dynamic or dynamic blended brake , stepless control of speed making the engine notches basically redundant.

HEP of Inverter with Engine speed not being determinator of HEP or propulsion frequency.

etc etc .


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## Andrew (Dec 9, 2015)

Wouldn't a Charger Dual Mode Locomotive weigh over 300,000 pounds?!

Do you know if MNR has had discussions with Bombardier, Kawasaki or Alstom about ordering double decker coaches that could fit through the Park Avenue Tunnels?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 9, 2015)

discussions yes but how far they are is not known.

and no charger weighs around 264 000 Lbs here are sigle mode specifications ( a dual mode would not weigh a lot more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charger_(locomotive)

ps here is Amtrak specifications (draft) http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/PRIIA_DM_Loco_Spec_305-010_DRAFT.pdf


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## Andrew (Dec 9, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> discussions yes but how far they are is not known.
> 
> and no charger weighs around 264 000 Lbs here are sigle mode specifications ( a dual mode would not weigh a lot more.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Where did you get that link? Do you know of any other links that provides similar information?

When do you think an order for new locomotives and double-decker coaches will occur?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 9, 2015)

probably not for few years , nothing in budget.


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## Andrew (Dec 18, 2015)

Do you think that Metro North will eventually go to electric locomotives pulling or pushing trains instead of EMU's on the New Haven and Upper Harlem line?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 18, 2015)

no


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## Andrew (Dec 19, 2015)

Do you think that electrification will get extended north to Poughkeepsie?

If so, then would the trains to/from Poughkeepsie use EMU's or locomotive hauled trains?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 19, 2015)

no, and it has never been planning , cost would simply be to big for amount of trains run.


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## Andrew (Dec 20, 2015)

What modifications would have to occur for double decker trains to be able to operate into and out of Grand Central Terminal?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 21, 2015)

other than few signals moved, none if they buy right car.


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## Andrew (Dec 21, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> other than few signals moved, none if they buy right car.


I didn't know if the two outer tubes that run underneath Park Avenue would have to be widened or have their roofs raised, etc.


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 21, 2015)

neither as I have explained twice already .


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## Andrew (Dec 22, 2015)

Besides Kawasaki Rail Car, who also bid on the M-9 railcar contract?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 22, 2015)

loosers do not get publicity, sure Rotem and Bombardier did, but does it matter ?? unless your Steve Harvey ;-)


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## Andrew (Dec 23, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> loosers do not get publicity, sure Rotem and Bombardier did, but does it matter ?? unless your Steve Harvey ;-)


Steve Harvey lolz.

Are there any height restrictions for the lower level tracks that go up into the Upper Level?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 23, 2015)

Yes same as park avenue tunnel and both levels same height restriction mentioned before and again and again and again ??


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## Andrew (Dec 25, 2015)

Dutchrailnut said:


> loosers do not get publicity, sure Rotem and Bombardier did, but does it matter ?? unless your Steve Harvey ;-)


I am surprised that Alstom did not bid on the new trains.

Do you know of any plans to rebuild the Junction where the New Haven Line merges with the Main Line?


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## Dutchrailnut (Dec 25, 2015)

no one said they did not bid ?

no plans to change as far as I know.


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## Andrew (Dec 29, 2015)

Which are Metro North's busiest (and longest) trains?


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