# Sunset limited schedule to change in may



## Steve4031 (Mar 13, 2012)

I took just part of the article describing the changes.

The new departure times (compared below with the current schedule) maintain the through-car coach and sleeper exchange with the Texas Eagle at San Antonio, but shorten the eastbound overnight layover by 7 hours eastbound and 3 hours westbound (the Eagle’s through cars to Los Angeles will leave Chicago on Friday, rather than Thursday). Sunset equipment now can make a same-day turn at Los Angeles and an overnight turn every day at New Orleans. Both locations are equipped to swap cars in and out for preventive maintenance, but at least one transition dorm, full sleeper, lounge, diner, and two  coaches should be freed-up to expand long distance train consists for the busy summer travel season ahead.


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## dart330 (Mar 13, 2012)

How about the connection from the Texas Eagle to NOL and back? Are we looking at even longer layovers in the middle of the night?


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 13, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> I took just part of the article describing the changes.
> 
> The new departure times (compared below with the current schedule) maintain the through-car coach and sleeper exchange with the Texas Eagle at San Antonio, but shorten the eastbound overnight layover by 7 hours eastbound and 3 hours westbound (the Eagle’s through cars to Los Angeles will leave Chicago on Friday, rather than Thursday). Sunset equipment now can make a same-day turn at Los Angeles and an overnight turn every day at New Orleans. Both locations are equipped to swap cars in and out for preventive maintenance, but at least one transition dorm, full sleeper, lounge, diner, and two coaches should be freed-up to expand long distance train consists for the busy summer travel season ahead.


Steve: Im confused by this :blink: (I'm confused by alot of things!! :lol: )The Current Sunset Schedule has the Eastbound #2 Laying over in SAS Only 2 Hours,while the Westbound #1 Lays over 3-4 Hours (sually Early into SAS)Does thiseffect the Eagle Schedule in any Way other than the Cutout Coach and Sleeper being Dropped in SAS? on Saturday instead of Fridays???? (as you said, #421 Will Run Out of CHI on Friday rather than Thursday!! :help:


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## afigg (Mar 13, 2012)

I expect there will be an Amtrak press release, likely with the revised schedules, which will make this schedule change clearer but it has not yet been posted on the Amtrak website. This may be close to the proposed schedules in the 2010 PIP report for the Sunset Limited and Texas Eagle, but that was based on going to daily service for the SL route.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't understand it either. I thought more info would pop up. The eb would leave lax about 10 pm as far as I can tell. The wb is not so clear. To shorten the wait time for 421, IMHO 21/421 would have to leave Chicago later. 1 could not leave much earlier because arrival into ka would be too early.


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## City of Miami (Mar 13, 2012)

WOW! 2:45 am SAS departure for 1/421  :blink: :wacko: Not for me :hi:


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## afigg (Mar 13, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> I don't understand it either. I thought more info would pop up. The eb would leave lax about 10 pm as far as I can tell. The wb is not so clear. To shorten the wait time for 421, IMHO 21/421 would have to leave Chicago later. 1 could not leave much earlier because arrival into ka would be too early.


The 2010 PIP proposal has TE 21 departing CHI at 3:05 PM instead of 1:45 PM CT. If I read the 2010 proposed (daily) schedule correctly, it makes for a very poor north of San Antonio to Houston trip with a long wait in San Antonio. There will be winners and some loser city pairs in this schedule change. As there has to be with a 2 day LD train. Palm Springs to LA becomes in the middle of the night times.


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## dart330 (Mar 13, 2012)

They just posted this on Facebook & Twitter



> NEW SCHEDULE FOR SUNSET LIMITED BENEFITS PASSENGERS AND IMPROVES FINANCIAL PERFORMANCE; Better connections, increased ridership and revenue, and reduced costs
> NEW ORLEANS -- A new schedule for the Amtrak Sunset Limited is planned to take effect on May 7 for the New Orleans-Los Angeles route that will change the days of westbound operations and provide better connections for passengers travelling to and through California. These changes are expected to increase ridership and revenue, and reduce crew layover costs.
> 
> "The passenger benefits and financial improvement resulting from changing the Sunset Limited schedule are two-fold: Amtrak is providing better service and acting to improve our bottom line," said President and CEO Joe Boardman. "These are improvements that can be implemented quickly, require no capital investment and will enhance connectivity across our national network."
> ...


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## City of Miami (Mar 13, 2012)

It doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Eagle between CHI and SAS.

According to Amsnag the new low bucket for a roomette LAX-SAS is $149 but they're few and far between - and only 3 meals instead of 4, dep. LAX 10pm, arr SAS 4:50am or so. It's really not much of an increase.


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## dart330 (Mar 13, 2012)

Pulled these times out of the reservations on the website.

1 Sunset Limited

Departs NOL: 9:00 AM

Arrives SAS: 12:05 AM

Departs SAS: 2:45 AM

Arrives LAX: 5:35 AM

2 Sunset Limited

Departs LAX: 10:00 PM

Arrives SAS: 4:50 AM

Departs SAS: 6:25 AM

Arrives NOL: 9:40 PM

So FTW-NOL layover is now 8 hr 30 min, and NOL-FTW layover is 6 hr 55 min, pretty terrible for the middle of the night.


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## guest (Mar 13, 2012)

dart330 said:


> Pulled these times out of the reservations on the website.
> 
> 1 Sunset Limited
> 
> ...


But given that far more people travel LAX-DFW or LAX-NOL than NOL-FTW, I think this will be a great benefit overall.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 13, 2012)

:hi: Thanks for Posting the Schedule! As has been said, there will be Winners and Losers with these Changes! Those of us that Live down here in Texas will have to catch the Sunset Ltd. in the wee Hours,  but looks like the Plus is that the Connection from the SB Starlight #11 to #2 will once Again be Possible, and the Early Arrival into LAX pretty mcuh Assures the Connection with the NB #14 Starlight! Wonder if the Changed Schedule Leaving CHI Later will result in doing Away with the Thruway Van through the Cornfields from GBB-SPI to connect from the SWC and CZ with the Eagle??? Will be interesting to see where the Freed up Superliner Equipment Actually Ends up,as well as what will happen to the Crews since the Sunset usually has Very Senior Crews??? Id suggest that the PDX-CHI Section of the Builder should get the Long discussed CCC and that the Freed up Sleeper go to the CL since that Train seems to be Selling out @ High Buckets Often! Theres also Seasonal Arguements for the CZ/SWC and EB to get the extra Sleeper!! Wonder if the Extra Sightseer Lounge could run on the Zephyr since it's so Hard to Snag a Seat in the Lounge through the Mountains???


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## Train2104 (Mar 13, 2012)

Schedule, from ARROW:

Train #1

0900 New Orleans

1030 Schriever

1156 New Iberia

1224 Lafayette

1355 Lake Charles

1534 Beaumont

1818 AR Houston

1855 DP Houston

0005 AR San Antonio

0245 DP San Antonio

0549 Del Rio

0824 Sanderson

1038 Alpine

1322 AR El Paso

1347 DP El Paso

1518 Deming

1613 Lordsburg

1718 Benson

1845 AR Tucson

1935 DP Tucson

2052 AR Maricopa

2102 DP Maricopa

2349 Yuma

0202 Palm Springs

0354 Ontario

0404 Pomona

0535 Los Angeles


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 13, 2012)

dart330 said:


> Pulled these times out of the reservations on the website.
> 
> 1 Sunset Limited
> 
> ...


A 5:35AM arrival into LAX? :blink: Even the 9:40 arrival into NOL isn't great.


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## Shortline (Mar 13, 2012)

Wow. I think this totally screws me. I am not going to sit in SAS station overnight waiting for it to get in after arriving on the TE at 9pm. Guess I'll see about getting my 40,000 points back and fly, unless something gives.


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## NY Penn (Mar 13, 2012)

5:30 AM into LA? Seriously? That's likely to discourage a lot of people. And with the SL's usual earliness into LA...


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## Train2104 (Mar 13, 2012)

Shortline said:


> Wow. I think this totally screws me. I am not going to sit in SAS station overnight waiting for it to get in after arriving on the TE at 9pm. Guess I'll see about getting my 40,000 points back and fly, unless something gives.


You'll be sitting in the train, not in the station.


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## Steve4031 (Mar 13, 2012)

Will sleeper passengers be kicked out on arrival into lax?


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## Shortline (Mar 13, 2012)

Train2104 said:


> 1331680146[/url]' post='353259']
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> Shortline said:
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You sure? I'm going OKC-FTW-SAS-NOL. Was going to change from Texas Eagle to Sunset Limited. Just checked, doesn't even show as a valid booking now. If we were on a through car, great...but I don't think that's the case. Hence, either cancel, or, sit all night in the station.


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## guest (Mar 13, 2012)

You're not kidding about the early arrival time into LA!

We'd better hope the Sunset runs late all the time! 5:35 is way too early for any train arrival at its destination. It makes the last night in the sleepers westbound almost a waste of money, since you'd have to be up by 4:30 assuming the train was on time.

AND according to the posted sked, there's a lot of padding between Pomona and LAUS, about 90 minutes! If the train is running anywhere close to schedule in arriving in Pomona at 4:04 a.m., it will be into LAUS about 4:45 a.m.!!!

THAT'S SO EARLY that you couldn't even walk over to Philippes (or Philippe for the curmudgeons on this forum) for breakfast!!


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 13, 2012)

I hope someone somewhere is seriously benefiting from all this, because from where I'm standing this is nothing but lose-lose for folks in and around San Antonio. The previous 5:40AM departure was early and the 10PM arrival was late, but not impossibly so. People were still willing to work within those schedules. Now with these 2:45AM departures and 4:50AM arrivals it's beginning to look a lot less workable. I see a big drop off for SAS, but maybe Amtrak is perfectly fine with that. Maybe this really does have more to do with resource management than it does with trying to improve the revenue performance of the Sunset Limited. Maybe Amtrak would be happy to have the Sunset revenue dip so low that they can finally cut it loose?


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## dart330 (Mar 13, 2012)

Shortline said:


> Train2104 said:
> 
> 
> > 1331680146[/url]' post='353259']
> ...


That is the exact itemerary I wanted to do, and it looks like it no longer shows as a valid one with the 8.5 hour layover. The reverse trip is still showing up though. Hopefully they just haven't programmed in all the connections yet, or this is yet another missing one we will never see in the system.

They will for sure kick you off upon arrival into SAS, so you'd have a long night at Denny's or need to spring for a hotel room.


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## Train2104 (Mar 13, 2012)

Shortline said:


> You sure? I'm going OKC-FTW-SAS-NOL. Was going to change from Texas Eagle to Sunset Limited. Just checked, doesn't even show as a valid booking now. If we were on a through car, great...but I don't think that's the case. Hence, either cancel, or, sit all night in the station.


I didn't realize you were going the other way. Then I guess you'll have to sit in the station.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 13, 2012)

Where's the extra equipment going to go?

I heard that the SL used to have a really late departure eastbound out of LAX. Probably back when it ran with a pair of POOHES. Is this true?


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## Montanan (Mar 13, 2012)

This is actually fairly close to the historic, pre-Amtrak schedule of the Sunset, as well as the train's schedule in Amtrak's early years. And while some city pairs will be made less convenient by the change, all in all I think it's a significant improvement. The big thing is the return of a decent overnight schedule between LA and Arizona, city pairs that used to provide a lot of traffic for the train. Times are also better in Houston, and the trip times for Texas Eagle-Sunst through passengers are *much* better. So I'd say this is a very good thing ... though of course I don't happen to live in San Antonio.


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## Shortline (Mar 13, 2012)

Train2104 said:


> 1331681917[/url]' post='353266']
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> Shortline said:
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Well, we promised our son we could take the train, he was mortified we'd even think of canceling and flying. Wife was adamant that we were not going to spend the night in a station waiting, and it's not long enough to bother getting a hotel. Ended up changing our reservation to OKC-FTW-CHI-NOL, then returning in reverse. Bummed we're burning a beach day by adding another full day on the train, but it seemed like the lesser of two evils. May end up cancelling anyway if we can find another way to use the points, but for now, we're at least confirmed on a trip that won't leave us in San Antonio in the middle of the night. Now I need to waste time going to the pt office to mail these tickets in, to get our new ones.


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## HeadingNorth (Mar 13, 2012)

San Antonio to the west, for non-Texas Eagle passengers, loses. But the times for NOL to Houston and SAS aren't so bad. Now if they were smart, they might allow sleeper passengers boarding in SAS for points west (and vice-versa) to book rooms in the Eagle sleeper pending availability, and board early/sleep in. It'd almost be worth booking to/from AUS...


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 13, 2012)

Shortline said:


> Train2104 said:
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How do you get beach days at NOL if there is no ocean? I know there's a river but no beach. How bad is sitting overnight at SAS?


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## Shortline (Mar 13, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 1331685180[/url]' post='353286']
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> Shortline said:
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We're going to Pensacola, NOL is the closest station. How bad is sitting all night in a station??? Not how I'm spending vacation, up all night in a plastic amseat. The more I think about this, the more certain I am we'll end up cancelling. 2 days on 3 different trains, just to drive another 3.5 hours to where we really want to be anyway, all for what equates now to 2 days at the beach just to do it all again in reverse......This is starting to not look like a good deal, even free. (agr award tickets)


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## Swadian Hardcore (Mar 13, 2012)

Shortline said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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> > Shortline said:
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Haave you sat overnight at SAS? I directed the question at people who had expierience with it. Also, you could take the Ambut to KCY, then SWC to CHI, then CONO to NOL. Just saying.


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## afigg (Mar 13, 2012)

Steve4031 said:


> Will sleeper passengers be kicked out on arrival into lax?


I would expect the sleeper passengers will be allowed to stay onboard for a while. Amtrak has plenty of time to turn the equipment around.

For those wondering what is the reasoning behind and benefits are for the schedule change, those are discussed in the September 2010 SL/TE PIP report. Amtrak saves on equipment costs, reduces crew and staff costs, expects to boost ridership on the SL, TE, and Coast Starlight, provides more large cities with daytime service. The losers are those who want to take the TE and SL from north of San Antonio to NOL.

Lots of trade-offs, including the very early arrival in LA. Since Amtrak can't move LA 100 miles further west, it gets an awkward arrival time. Have to look at the schedule and see what happens if the westbound SL schedule was moved up 90 minutes for a 7 AM LA arrival.

The SL/TE PIP report proposed a route change in CA to Riverside and Fullerton. What happened to that part?


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## Shortline (Mar 13, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> 1331687193[/url]' post='353293']
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True, I could sleep in a waiting room, change to a bus, or any number of miserable options..... Or, I could fly and be there in 5 hours, with a layover. I guess, Im just frustrated, every time I try and take the train, something always cancels, breaks, reroutes, bustitutes, or simply can't get there from here. I give up. I think maybe we'll fly at least one way, train the other, that way my boy gets his train ride in a sleeper, but we don't blow the whole trip riding 48 hours + for what is a 12 hour drive, or 5 hour flight.


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## tonys96 (Mar 13, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Shortline said:
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> > Train2104 said:
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I would never consider sitting overnight in SAS....NEVER, not for any reason whatsoever. Small station, hard seats, lots of movement around.

Now, a station like Little Rock with church pew type seating where I could stretch out could be considered, but SAS?? Not a chance. :angry:


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## Ocala Mike (Mar 13, 2012)

I plead guilty to not having read this entire thread, but can anyone comment on what effect, if any, this could have on the possible resumption of service (ANY service) east of NOLA?

Ocala Mike


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## AlanB (Mar 13, 2012)

afigg said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > Will sleeper passengers be kicked out on arrival into lax?
> ...


Sadly, I would not expect that sleeping car pax will be allowed to stay onboard. They weren't back when the Sunset used to arrive earlier than it currently does. And since under normal Amtrak rules the SCA stops getting paid the second that the engine essentially touches the bumper block I can't imagine that the SCA's will want to hang around to help passengers exit the car after they sleep for another two hours or so.


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## AlanB (Mar 13, 2012)

Ocala Mike said:


> I plead guilty to not having read this entire thread, but can anyone comment on what effect, if any, this could have on the possible resumption of service (ANY service) east of NOLA?
> 
> Ocala Mike


It kills any chance of restoring service to the east using Sunset equipment. Either a new service to the east must be established or Amtrak would have to change the Sunset's schedule back to the old one to operate the consists east of NOL.


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## henryj (Mar 13, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> I hope someone somewhere is seriously benefiting from all this, because from where I'm standing this is nothing but lose-lose for folks in and around San Antonio. The previous 5:40AM departure was early and the 10PM arrival was late, but not impossibly so. People were still willing to work within those schedules. Now with these 2:45AM departures and 4:50AM arrivals it's beginning to look a lot less workable. I see a big drop off for SAS, but maybe Amtrak is perfectly fine with that. Maybe this really does have more to do with resource management than it does with trying to improve the revenue performance of the Sunset Limited. Maybe Amtrak would be happy to have the Sunset revenue dip so low that they can finally cut it loose?


All I can add is it's about time. Finally some decent times in and out of Houston and good times from Houston to SAS. I don't understand all the bitching as this was the plan all along. They just did it without the daily service change. This also probably kills any idea of restoring service to Florida. This is a NOL to LAX train, not an OKC/FTW to NOL train. When you get your train to Shreveport, just extend it down to NOL. Looks like Houston to NOL is even slower than current schedule. How about a bus connection to Phoenix now. As I read it passengers may occupy the train in LAX until 7am. This schedule change, particularly eastbound is SO overdue. Not since before Katrina. I just hope it's really true.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 13, 2012)

AlanB said:


> afigg said:
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> 
> > Steve4031 said:
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I do believe that some sleeper pax would be allowed to stay onboard, especially if the train arrives on time at 4:45. The PIP stated that they would be able to stay on until 6:30


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## AlanB (Mar 13, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> AlanB said:
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> > afigg said:
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It used to say that before too, but never seemed to happen in practice. The only saving grace back then was the fact that the train rarely arrived on time into LA. It was rarely ontime, prior to the huge amounts of padding being added to the schedule. But on the few occasions where it did happen to get there on time, I recall seeing reports of passengers being told to wake up and get off the train upon arrival.

Maybe this time will be different, I don't know. But I do hope you'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath until it is confirmed.


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## henryj (Mar 13, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Maybe this time will be different, I don't know. But I do hope you'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath until it is confirmed.


LOL Alan, me too. Sigh. I also think the poster is wrong about a same day turn around in LAX. It's still a three day turn around there. But it does save one set of equipment. I believe they can still run to Orlando if they kept the 4th set in the mix. But that's never going to happen.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 13, 2012)

henryj said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe this time will be different, I don't know. But I do hope you'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath until it is confirmed.
> ...


Ditto for me too on the Staying in the Sleepers till a decent Hour in LAX! As Alan said, the Minute the Train Hits the Bumper @ the Terminal the OBS Crew Go Off the Clock and they Literally RUN from the Train, have seen it Many Times Myself!(Can anyone Blame them, their Union cut a bad deal for OBS!!!) Maybe we could sleep in Union Station with the Street Characters or get Philippe to Open Earlier!!!!! :giggle:


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## Ben (Mar 14, 2012)

This is great! It's about time this happened. UP made Amtrak change the schedule of the SL in spring of 2005; it was supposed to be "temporary." Now most of the major cities along the route get service at decent times and the connection to the CS is restored. I predict ridership will increase at least 25% by year's end.


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## guest (Mar 14, 2012)

guest said:


> You're not kidding about the early arrival time into LA!
> 
> We'd better hope the Sunset runs late all the time! 5:35 is way too early for any train arrival at its destination. It makes the last night in the sleepers westbound almost a waste of money, since you'd have to be up by 4:30 assuming the train was on time.
> 
> ...


For people making connections from LAX (or LAX the airport, too), this scheduled arrival is great! Catching early Surfliners, being early for the Starlight, even when 1 is late...it might be a little rough for those in Palm Springs, Ontario, and Pomona, but hopefully those places will have additional options soon (in fact, Palm Desert/Palm Springs/Cabazon now have 2x/day bus connections to Riverside and Fullerton through Amtrak...)


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## guest (Mar 14, 2012)

LOTS of people already stay overnight in the station at SAS. Given the new times, I'd say it would be well worth it for a family of 3 or more to book one of the many inexpensive hotels near the station for a nice night's sleep. Under the old schedule, you'd still have spent several hours in the station, but not enough to justify a hotel. Now you might actually get some sleep!


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 14, 2012)

henryj said:


> All I can add is it's about time. Finally some decent times in and out of Houston and good times from Houston to SAS. I don't understand all the bitching as this was the plan all along.


You really can't understand why someone wouldn't want to head downtown at 2:00AM? You really can't fathom why people don't want to be kicked off the train at 4:30AM? I can understand why you're happy to have the changes. I just can't understand where you're getting confused about the rest of us being disappointed. Without the daily service angle this is a bad tradeoff with few if any benefits for many of us. Seems simple enough to me.


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## mfastx (Mar 14, 2012)

Wow that's a lot better times for Houston, traveling both ways. But San Antonio definitely got the shaft with this one.

With a long distance train like this, there is always going to be a couple of major cities with crappy departure times.


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## Blue Marble Travel (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree. If they do this, they should leave the train on the platform until rush hour heats up, or whatever ("sleeping car passengers may occupy their rooms until 7:30a"). The sleeper attendants will have to stay on the cars anyway (there is no way they can make the 40 beds before the early arrival), and a passenger who gets a 4a wake-up call is not going to be happy. Well, _I_ wouldn't be happy, at least.



NY Penn said:


> 5:30 AM into LA? Seriously? That's likely to discourage a lot of people. And with the SL's usual earliness into LA...


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## cirdan (Mar 14, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Haave you sat overnight at SAS? I directed the question at people who had expierience with it. Also, you could take the Ambut to KCY, then SWC to CHI, then CONO to NOL. Just saying.


Yes, done that once. In fact we left our lugagge with the station clerk and walked into town (which is right next to the station). There wasn't very much going on but it was a pleasant experience in a way.


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## jis (Mar 14, 2012)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Where's the extra equipment going to go?
> 
> I heard that the SL used to have a really late departure eastbound out of LAX. Probably back when it ran with a pair of POOHES. Is this true?


The SL is basically going back to the schedule that it ran on for much of its existence before SP/UP meltdown caused the schedule to be changed.

Even pre-Amtrak 1969 schedule was NOL d 12:01pm, LAX a 6:30am, LAX d 10:00pm, NOL a 8:10pm.

1979 Amtrak schedule was NOL d 1:00pm, LAX a 7:40am, LAX d 10:30pm, NOL a 8:45pm.

In the 1979 schedule SAS was 2:55am to 3:10am westbound and 5:18am to 5:33am eastbound.

One very important thing that this does is it restores connection from the Coast Starlight in LAX in both directions as was historically the case. Indeed I have used that connection at least twice in the 70s and early 80s, and it was really convenient.


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## jis (Mar 14, 2012)

henryj said:


> I also think the poster is wrong about a same day turn around in LAX. It's still a three day turn around there.


The impression I got from a conversation with the Director of National Operations is that normally it will be a same day turn around at LAX and overnight turn around in NOL. But as usual, with everything, what really happens is the final arbiter in these things. So we will just have to wait and see.

They really do want to release as much equipment as possible so that they can be turning wheels and earning revenue rather than sitting around as hangar queens for half of each week.

In this context, maybe they should reconsider the schedule of the Meteor allowing same day turn around at Sunnyside thus releasing a consist for equipment distribution to other service, even beefing up the Meteor or Star with some additional Coaches, and the LSL with another Sleeper.


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## Trogdor (Mar 14, 2012)

jis said:


> The impression I got from a conversation with the Director of National Operations is that normally it will be a same day turn around at LAX and overnight turn around in NOL. But as usual, with everything, what really happens is the final arbiter in these things. So we will just have to wait and see.


Technically, the train could have a same-day turnaround in LAX on Wednesday and Friday.

However, with the change in days of operations (which enables all the cost savings and the equipment set to be freed up in NOL), you'll have a train leaving LAX on Sunday, but the inbound equipment won't get in until Monday.

So, whether they do a same-day turn around on Wednesday and Friday, and hold the Monday arrival as a spare all week until the Sunday departure, or whether they have the two-day turnaround for each set, makes no real difference in the end as far as equipment utilization and availability goes.

My bet is that both will happen, depending on the needs of the specific equipment on the specific day/week.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 14, 2012)

Bottom line: People who perceive a benefit in the new schedule are going to like it, and the people who don't won't. I wouldn't be surprised if initially ridership will slow or slacken some while riders adjust to the new schedule.

If I lived in Houston, wanted to ride from LAX to TUS, or was directly connecting to/from the CS, I'd be happy. 

None of the above apply to me. Anyone know of a good breakfast place open at 5:00 AM in LA? :wacko: Think there will be coffee in the sleepers at 4:30 in the AM? :blink: And what time does the Gold Line start operating? :lol:


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## jis (Mar 14, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The impression I got from a conversation with the Director of National Operations is that normally it will be a same day turn around at LAX and overnight turn around in NOL. But as usual, with everything, what really happens is the final arbiter in these things. So we will just have to wait and see.
> ...


You are correct of course!


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## jis (Mar 14, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> Bottom line: People who perceive a benefit in the new schedule are going to like it, and the people who don't won't. I wouldn't be surprised if initially ridership will slow or slacken some while riders adjust to the new schedule.
> 
> If I lived in Houston, wanted to ride from LAX to TUS, or was directly connecting to/from the CS, I'd be happy.
> 
> None of the above apply to me. Anyone know of a good breakfast place open at 5:00 AM in LA? :wacko: Think there will be coffee in the sleepers at 4:30 in the AM? :blink: And what time does the Gold Line start operating? :lol:


LAUS needs a more substantial food concession somewhere in its vast interior.


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## russianrail (Mar 14, 2012)

First, I want to thank Amtrak for thinking like a transportation system and concerned about train connections.

However, I have some issues/concerns (and I hope I am not giving anyone bad ideas about what to do).

1. Same day connections between the Southbound Coast Starlight and Eastbound Sunset Limited have a 1 hour connection. Does this mean that if #11 is more than say 2 hours late into Sacramento, will the connecting passengers be put on the San Joaquin at Martinez for a bus/train connection to LAX? If yes, at least they will get breakfast on #11.

2. Dining Car - we have all seen the problems with the 9:30pm eastbound departure of the Lake Shore Limited out of Chicago has been. With this in mind, are they going to do a similar reception for Sleeping Car passengers leaving LAX. I hesitate to write this, but are they going to "Eagle" the dining car crew (taking them on/off at Maricopa) meaning #1 will have an early dinner the night before and if running late no breakfast (or boxed breakfasts) into LAX? This means that #2 would end up with boxed breakfasts eastbound the first day, especially if running even a little bit late. We really need a dining car crew all the way into LAX.

3. Early arrival into LAX for #1 - Amtrak press release notes that sleeper car passengers can stay onboard until 0630. But, will they be woken up by the early morning announcement for the arrival? If #1 arrives early, will they kick the coach passengers off immediately or let them sleep in until 5:30? Also, will there be boxed breakfasts provided for sleeper passengers?

4. Eastbound connection with #22 is now down to under 3 hours (a little more with slack into SAS). How late will they hold #22 for the thru-cars if #2 is delayed?

Again, I think we are moving in a positive direction, even if some of the details are worrysome.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 14, 2012)

jis said:


> LAUS needs a more substantial food concession somewhere in its vast interior.


YES!!! IMHO it is the one thing truly lacking at LAUS. ...Well that and maybe a Metropolitan Lounge. hboy:


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## Trogdor (Mar 14, 2012)

russianrail said:


> 2. Dining Car - we have all seen the problems with the 9:30pm eastbound departure of the Lake Shore Limited out of Chicago has been. With this in mind, are they going to do a similar reception for Sleeping Car passengers leaving LAX. I hesitate to write this, but are they going to "Eagle" the dining car crew (taking them on/off at Maricopa) meaning #1 will have an early dinner the night before and if running late no breakfast (or boxed breakfasts) into LAX? This means that #2 would end up with boxed breakfasts eastbound the first day, especially if running even a little bit late. We really need a dining car crew all the way into LAX.


Can't specifically answer the others, but for this one: The dining car crew is based in LAX, so they will run all the way through.


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## Anderson (Mar 14, 2012)

In general, I like the shift around...the main thing I think that Amtrak needs to be clear on is allowing rooms to be occupied until a decent hour (even guaranteed occupancy until 6:30 AM wouldn't be _that_ bad). To put it plainly, policy or not, I generally try to tip well...but there's a good chance that I would omit the tip in such a situation (either out of irritation or out of it's-4-AM-and-I'm-not-awake-ness). And so help me if I'm getting booted at 2 AM because the train ran early.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 14, 2012)

Anderson said:


> In general, I like the shift around...the main thing I think that Amtrak needs to be clear on is allowing rooms to be occupied until a decent hour (even guaranteed occupancy until 6:30 AM wouldn't be _that_ bad). To put it plainly, policy or not, I generally try to tip well...but there's a good chance that I would omit the tip in such a situation (either out of irritation or out of it's-4-AM-and-I'm-not-awake-ness). And so help me if I'm getting booted at 2 AM because the train ran early.


What seems to be missing from some of the pro-change posts is WHY the poster likes the change. Or why only sleeper passengers should be allowed to remain on board until a decent hour. Who do you think represents the vast majority of passengers Amtrak hauls? Sleeper passengers are a tiny minority of the total and will remain so into the foreseeable future. If only sleeper passengers can be accommodated at a reasonable arrival hour then the passenger totals and the revenue for the SL will likely drop even further.

To get a better feel for where all the pro-change views are coming from I'd like to make a list of MAJOR on-route cities with _improved_ scheduling.

So far I have Houston and Tuscon.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 14, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The impression I got from a conversation with the Director of National Operations is that normally it will be a same day turn around at LAX and overnight turn around in NOL. But as usual, with everything, what really happens is the final arbiter in these things. So we will just have to wait and see.
> ...


So what you're saying is that there will not be saved equipment because it needs to sit in LAX for 6 days? Not good...


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 14, 2012)

jis said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line: People who perceive a benefit in the new schedule are going to like it, and the people who don't won't. I wouldn't be surprised if initially ridership will slow or slacken some while riders adjust to the new schedule.
> ...



Spending a lot of time at the station, I appreciate the food vendors they have now. Having a Wetzel's Pretzels, Subway, Starbucks, and a Famima convenience store are all welcome changes. In regards to food, I just wish they would have the Traxx restaurant open for lunch. It would be nice to be able to eat at a sit-down restaurant in the station for lunch.


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## guest (Mar 14, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > LAUS needs a more substantial food concession somewhere in its vast interior.
> ...


LAX has a full-service restaurant, a Subway, a Starbucks, Wetzel's Pretzels, and a 24 hour convenience store...not to mention an entire city downtown right outside the doors and/or a couple of stops away on the subway...I think that's sufficient...


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## trainman74 (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm currently booked via an AGR redemption on 421 CHI-LAX, departing on Thursday, June 14 (connecting from 49) -- I guess now I get to play a little game called When Will Amtrak Notify Me of the Change to 421's Day of Operation, and What Will They Want to Do About My Reservation?

My semi-educated guess is that the computer will say "hey, he wants to go CHI-LAX departing on 6/14" and automatically transfer me to the Chief, and they won't get around to notifying me of this until early June.


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## Donctor (Mar 14, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...



No, what he's saying is that one of the four current sets will be saved, but that a third set is still required because a same-day turn isn't possible for one of the three weekly LAX turns. With three sets still needed, and with two LAX turns able to be same-day, the equipment turns can be done multiple ways.

Three sets will be needed regardless of how LAX decided to turn the equipment.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 14, 2012)

Donctor said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Trogdor said:
> ...


Ok thanks for clarifying Donctor.


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## Gratt (Mar 14, 2012)

One hopes that Amtrak can use this announcement to start putting the pressure on UP to cave on their daily sunset extortion demands.

Again not hopeful, but it would make taking the sunset a heck of a lot easier knowing I could leave/return on any day of the week instead of trying to shoehorn my trip into the Sunset timetable.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 14, 2012)

Gratt said:


> One hopes that Amtrak can use this announcement to start putting the pressure on UP to cave on their daily sunset extortion demands.
> 
> Again not hopeful, but it would make taking the sunset a heck of a lot easier knowing I could leave/return on any day of the week instead of trying to shoehorn my trip into the Sunset timetable.


Except that as part of the deal to go back to this schedule, Amtrak agreed to not pursue a daily Sunset for at least two more years.


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## the_traveler (Mar 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > All I can add is it's about time. Finally some decent times in and out of Houston and good times from Houston to SAS. I don't understand all the bitching as this was the plan all along.
> ...


I feel sorry for you in SAS!




Having to get an early wake up call to get off!





How about SLC eastbound, receiving a 3 am wake up for about a 3:30 am arrival! Or PGH eastbound, receiving a 4:30 am wake up call for a 5 am arrival! And these happen *EVERY DAY* and have happened *FOR YEARS*! So poor SAS! You must change!


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## Gratt (Mar 14, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Gratt said:
> 
> 
> > One hopes that Amtrak can use this announcement to start putting the pressure on UP to cave on their daily sunset extortion demands.
> ...



Really? I did not know that. Johnny, do you have any source I could read? I would love to see the details on that, and if their is any indication that a two year delay is more UP kicking the can down the road or their is a good chance that in two years we could see a concrete date (and reasonable cost) for a daily sunset.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 14, 2012)

Gratt said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Gratt said:
> ...


A two-year moratorium on requests for any non-state supported trains was part of the deal, as reported by Trains News Wire. I doubt if it means that UP will cut its request for a BAZZILLION dollars to run a daily Sunset. It just means they don't even have to listen to any request for two years.


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## njulian (Mar 14, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Gratt said:
> 
> 
> > One hopes that Amtrak can use this announcement to start putting the pressure on UP to cave on their daily sunset extortion demands.
> ...


Well darn as the 3 day a week schedule is difficult and I more often than not have to go to ABQ for the train because of it.

The new schedule is OK I guess (are there day changes eastbound? didn't catch that) for me, leaving ELP early is not a big deal and getting into LAX isn't so bad as I think Surfline starts early. But leaving LAX at 10 is a bit icky as being in downtown LA at night isn't such a great idea to me.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 14, 2012)

njulian said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Gratt said:
> ...


The first Surfliner leaves LAX southbound at 6:10. An on-time or early arrival would allow you just enough time to get your checked bags or go the Starbucks before boarding. I think the 10:00P departure is a good thing though. The times are much much better for getting to Tucson and Maricopa. There are still Pacific Surfliner trains that leave at 10:10PM, so leaving at 10:00P, there will still be plenty of people inside the station, and there should not be any security problems.


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 14, 2012)

Will this new schedule change the consist at all? If Amtrak is predicting much higher ridership from the schedule change alone, then will another sleeper be added to the consists that aren't cut, etc.? Also, is demand high enough to warrant making two through-coaches to the Eagle?


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## the_traveler (Mar 14, 2012)

njulian said:


> But leaving LAX at 10 is a bit icky as being in downtown LA at night isn't such a great idea to me.


You'll be in the station anyway, so what's the difference?



It's not like Security kicks you outside and then only lets you in at train time!


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## LA guest (Mar 14, 2012)

njulian said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Gratt said:
> ...


There are LOTS of bars, nightclubs, restaurants, stores, hotels, etc., all open and buzzing at that hour every night...most of downtown LA is walkable, shoppable, and safe, certainly on par with any other major city in the US.


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## Anderson (Mar 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > In general, I like the shift around...the main thing I think that Amtrak needs to be clear on is allowing rooms to be occupied until a decent hour (even guaranteed occupancy until 6:30 AM wouldn't be _that_ bad). To put it plainly, policy or not, I generally try to tip well...but there's a good chance that I would omit the tip in such a situation (either out of irritation or out of it's-4-AM-and-I'm-not-awake-ness). And so help me if I'm getting booted at 2 AM because the train ran early.
> ...


I think Houston and Tuscon are enough to justify the changes. There aren't many "big" cities on the Sunset route, but Tuscon (and Maricopa, if Amtrak was willing to stick in a bus bridge to Phoenix) would definitely qualify as a good candidate for schedule improvement, as would Houston (Houston-NOL and Tuscon-LAX are the two biggest available intermediate markets for Amtrak). San Antonio is another possible one, but I get the feeling that HOU-NOL and SAS-NOL aren't necessarily compatible with some scheduling options.

Just as a note, the existing/possible big cities on the route are:

-New Orleans

-Houston

-San Antonio

-El Paso

-Tuscon

-Maricopa [if a connection to Phoenix were set up]

-Los Angeles

El Paso has a decent time, but there's not much improvement to be had there. Trading a bad time in SAS for good times in two others seems like a winning proposition (particularly with respect to Los Angeles, where the sheer number of connections to be had is worth noting).

As to allowing sleeper vs. coach occupancy, I think the argument is more or less the multiple of a coach fare that sleeper passengers pay. I wouldn't be opposed to letting everyone stay onboard until time X (heck, even _guaranteeing_ 5:30 AM occupancy would be better than the risk of being shuffled off at about 4 AM, which being discharge-only after Palm Springs certainly risks), but there's a certain amount of aggravation that comes from paying lots and lots of money only to have an unpleasant surprise in the middle of the night. I think we all know that a few weeks or months into this, there are going to be some very sore passengers getting into Los Angeles at earlier than normal at some point who will be offering rather novel curses towards UP for rapid dispatching.


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## Shortline (Mar 14, 2012)

dart330 said:


> Shortline said:
> 
> 
> > Train2104 said:
> ...


I just checked, the TE-SL connection is back as a valid routing, with the 8 hour layover showing. I went ahead and changed to a OKC-FTW-CHI-NOL routing anyway, cancelled my return, and bought plane tickets. Extra day in Pensacola, and still get in 7 hours before we would if we stuck with the train. Actually going to work out a lot better, though I'm having to eat the cost of 3 one way plane tickets.


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## saxman (Mar 14, 2012)

Yeah I hardly think the loss of a decent time in SAS is going to affect anything really. It was 5:40 am and now its 2:45 am. This mean instead of getting up at 3 or 4 in the morning, you just stay up really late and get to the station around 2. I'd much rather do that unless you are use to getting up at that hour. Another big reason for the improvement is to tighten the layover in SAS. Espcially those going eastbound on 422, we're always horrified when they find out that they get into SAS at 10 pm, and have to sit there for 9 hours when all they wanted to do was go to Austin, only 80 miles away.

Amtrak has been working on this for awhile now. I heard UP was giving them a lot of road blocks, as they didn't want to change the schedule again. But sounds like they came to an agreement.

Now if we could get a same day connection to any train in NOL....I suppose that is impossible though.


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## jis (Mar 14, 2012)

johnny.menhennet said:


> So what you're saying is that there will not be saved equipment because it needs to sit in LAX for 6 days? Not good...


It is inherently difficult to get good equipment utilization on tri-weekly service unless the running times work out to be just right, or you are able to create links with other service to utilize the consist in its off time. Unfortunately in case of SSL at the California end there is apparently no choice but to waste resources waiting for the next run.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 14, 2012)

Got a Robo Call and e-mail today informing me that my Train TE#421 from CHI-AUS on Thurs 5/17 was CANCELLED with NO Alternate Transportation Available! :angry2: Since it is part of a 2 Zone AGR Award Returning from NTD in PHL,, I called and was told that, as was said by the OP, Train #421 would Now be Leaving CHI for LAX on Friday instead of Thursdays !(they had no Info on the other Two Days that #421 Runs CHI-LAX  )I was able to Rebook from BOS-CHI on #449 on Thursday 5/17 and CHI-AUS on #421 on Friday 5/18 in Roomettes,(High Buckets, these are Popular Trains1!), will have to spend the Night in Portland, Ride the DownEaster, it's a Dirty Job but Someone has to Do It!!!


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## Trogdor (Mar 14, 2012)

jis said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > So what you're saying is that there will not be saved equipment because it needs to sit in LAX for 6 days? Not good...
> ...


It's not a complete waste of resources. The Sunset's consist has been the de facto spare set in Los Angeles, bailing out the Chief or Starlight when needed because the inbounds are horribly late (such as the train that hit the SUV/trailer the other day) or have multiple bad-orders that can't be fixed in time.


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## trainman74 (Mar 14, 2012)

Partial credit where credit is due: I did get a robocall informing me of the "cancellation" of 421 on Thursday 6/14, just as Jim Hudson did. Only partial credit because the "no alternate transportation available" messaging is not the best Amtrak could be using.

For various reasons including the schedule change, I decided to cancel my trip entirely -- didn't ask about an overnight in Chicago (had a feeling they wouldn't be able to get the computer to spit that option out anyway).


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## City of Miami (Mar 14, 2012)

After a day's thought, I think it's going to work out well for me.  The *non-overnight* trip to NOL both ways is very attractive and I'm sure I'll be taking The Sunset to Houston and New Orleans much more often now. Previously the options had been the rotten bus service or flying. I'll have those options for TWO trips in April.....too soon for the change. Regarding the dreaded 2:45 am #1 departure, the train _is_ scheduled to arrive at midnight after all and with the same time allowance from Houston on the current schedule often arrives an hour early. So maybe (probably) the attendants will allow sleepers at least to board soon after arrival.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 14, 2012)

guest said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Other than the 24 hour 'convenience' micro-mini market, which of the plethora of options you cite will be open if the SL gets in before 5:00? Granted the Starbucks opens at 5:00, but unless you like 'the breakfast of champions' (coffee and a cigarette)its not much of a breakfast place IMHO.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 14, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> I feel sorry for you in SAS! Having to get an early wake up call to get off! How about SLC eastbound, receiving a 3 am wake up for about a 3:30 am arrival! Or PGH eastbound, receiving a 4:30 am wake up call for a 5 am arrival! And these happen *EVERY DAY* and have happened *FOR YEARS*! So poor SAS! You must change!


So the only answer you can muster is that other stations have it slightly worse? A NEC'er with over a dozen trains per day telling folks thousands of miles away (with a dozen trains per week) that their criticisms are irrelevant because another city that neither party lives in has it worse? Seriously, that's the best you could come up with?



Anderson said:


> I think Houston and Tuscon are enough to justify the changes.


As I understand it San Antonio currently has more O&D than Houston, Tuscon, and Maricopa combined (see below). Over time I can see those three cities picking up whatever is lost at San Antonio, but I do not foresee major improvements in total passenger numbers anytime soon. So long as this route remains less than daily it will probably continue to simply tread water like it has for many years now. If we accept that a major increase in total numbers is unlikely then it becomes clear that the real jewel in this whole change up is another free train set to use elsewhere. I don't see it becoming a regular addition to any one route so much as an emergency backup set. Something Amtrak can use for recovery purposes after the next commercial vehicle "accident" has occurred and taken yet another train out of service.

-Houston 19,637

-Tuscon 23,340

-Maricopa 9,819

-San Antonio 67,168



Anderson said:


> As to allowing sleeper vs. coach occupancy, I think the argument is more or less the multiple of a coach fare that sleeper passengers pay. There's a certain amount of aggravation that comes from paying lots and lots of money only to have an unpleasant surprise in the middle of the night.


If the amount paid is the only dividing line then why not kick off folks with AGR sleeper tickets who paid even less than coach passengers?



Anderson said:


> I think we all know that a few weeks or months into this, there are going to be some very sore passengers getting into Los Angeles at earlier than normal at some point who will be offering rather novel curses towards UP for rapid dispatching.


Yes, I'm sure they'll blame anyone _but_ the company they actually bought their tickets from.



saxman said:


> Yeah I hardly think the loss of a decent time in SAS is going to affect anything really. It was 5:40 am and now its 2:45 am. This mean instead of getting up at 3 or 4 in the morning, you just stay up really late and get to the station around 2.


A 5:40 departure is still within the realm of what you might get on a very early flight. People may not find that acceptable, but you can still suggest it with a straight face. 2:45AM is in a dead zone when few if any average folks are ready to depart. Rail fans may be just as happy to wait up all night getting hyped about their upcoming journey, but I'm inclined to believe that many non-fans are going to blow it off without a second thought.


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## afigg (Mar 14, 2012)

Amtrak has posted a news release on the SL schedule change with the new #1,#2 schedules. Just a statement from Boardman on the passenger benefits and financial improvements from the change. The financial improvements matter because Amtrak has to show that they are trying to improve the cost recovery for the SL and reduce the subsidy per passenger. Freeing up equipment, reducing crew costs, and hopefully more passengers should do that.

No mention of the agreement with UP, but this is a general public and media news release. The 2 year agreement with UP is left for the railroad industry press and passenger rail interest groups. Also, no mention of any schedule change for the southbound Texas Eagle which was proposed in the SL/TE PIP report. Either that will show up in the spring schedules or Amtrak is holding off on any changes on the TE schedule until prompted by changes on the CHI-STL corridor or Dallas-FTW segment.

On the issue of the 5:35 AM PT arrival in LA, I don't see why Amtrak could not have gone for a 1 hour later departure from either NOL or San Antonio for the westbound #1 and slip the arrival in LA to a more acceptable 6:35 AM. El Paso, Tucson and Maricopa still get good daytime hours. Really not that much difference between a 2:45 AM and a 3:45 AM departure from San Antonio for those in San Antonio. I guess there are timing issues with UP or crew reasons for the 5:35 AM arrival.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 14, 2012)

A few more DEEP thoughts: hboy:

For real:

1)Think the new published schedule will drop stations east of NOL, now that the new schedule effectively eliminates this option for at least the next two years?

For fun:

2)If the change brings #1 much closer to its original schedule, is the reason it is called the Sunset Limited is because, with the early arrival into LA, sunset is the time one will need to go to sleep and not be dead tired the next day? :giggle:


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## fairviewroad (Mar 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> As I understand it San Antonio currently has more O&D than Houston, Tuscon, and Maricopa combined (see below).


Well of course it does, because SAT has 13 weekly departures (SL east x3, SL west x3, TE north x7) whereas the other three cities only have 6 weekly departures. (SL 3x each way)

A truer apples-to-apples comparison of average passengers per departure still reveals SAT to be the leader, but not by a significant amount, and certainly not more than those other 3 combined.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 14, 2012)

City of Miami said:


> Regarding the dreaded 2:45 am #1 departure, the train _is_ scheduled to arrive at midnight after all and with the same time allowance from Houston on the current schedule often arrives an hour early. So maybe (probably) the attendants will allow sleepers at least to board soon after arrival.


Does anybody know what the official/practical line is from Amtrak on stuff like this? How soon can sleeper passengers _expect_ to board after arrival for a departure that's still hours away?



The Davy Crockett said:


> Think the new published schedule will drop stations east of NOL, now that the new schedule effectively eliminates this option for at least the next two years?


Seems doubtful to me. After they've already left it "suspended" for this long what's an extra couple years going to change?



The Davy Crockett said:


> If the change brings #1 much closer to its original schedule, is the reason it is called the Sunset Limited is because, with the early arrival into LA, sunset is the time one will need to go to sleep and not be dead tired the next day?


I used to subconsciously think of it as the _Sunrise Limited_ because that's generally what you saw soon after a Westbound departure. Now you can get a similar experience by heading East of SAS, but I really don't have many inherent reasons to travel in that direction unless and until Amtrak can reach Florida without detouring through the North East.



fairviewroad said:


> Well of course it does, because SAT has 13 weekly departures (SL east x3, SL west x3, TE north x7) whereas the other three cities only have 6 weekly departures. (SL 3x each way) A truer apples-to-apples comparison of average passengers per departure still reveals SAT to be the leader, but not by a significant amount, and certainly not more than those other 3 combined.


Good points all around.


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## jis (Mar 14, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> A few more DEEP thoughts: hboy:
> 
> For real:
> 
> 1)Think the new published schedule will drop stations east of NOL, now that the new schedule effectively eliminates this option for at least the next two years?


Why do you think it eliminates the possibility anymore than before? Afterall just because the train can be turned overnight does not mean it has to be, should one find useful revenue earning mission for the consist.  CSX is not UP so UP's two year window of "no more non-state supported trains" does not apply for NOL - JAX. As a matter of fact I suppose they could run daily service on the BNSF segment out of NOL westwards to their hearts content too, why they would do so I don't know, but they could, without running afoul of any agreement with UP.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 14, 2012)

jis said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > A few more DEEP thoughts: hboy:
> ...


I say this because the current schedule followed the schedule when it ran to Orlando. Does not the new schedule make this impossible without additional train sets?


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## the_traveler (Mar 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I feel sorry for you in SAS! Having to get an early wake up call to get off! How about SLC eastbound, receiving a 3 am wake up for about a 3:30 am arrival! Or PGH eastbound, receiving a 4:30 am wake up call for a 5 am arrival! And these happen *EVERY DAY* and have happened *FOR YEARS*! So poor SAS! You must change!
> ...


For your information, while I don't live in either city, I have had experience with both! Once on a trip to SLC - and then having to wait at the airport for over 1 hour for the car rental counter to open! The other in PGH, arriving at 5 AM on the eastbound CL and waiting for over 2 hours for the departure of the Pennsylvanian!

Oh yeah - one more thing: I did wait in SAS from 2 AM to 7 AM from the SL from NOL to the TE northbound!






And as far as your O/D figures for SAS, I can bet that many are passengers who booked #21 connecting to #1 or #2 connecting to #22 - and not booking on #421 or #422! Technically from the accounting standpoint, their trips end in SAS on #21 or #2 and originate in SAS on #1 or #22!


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## jis (Mar 14, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The Davy Crockett said:
> ...


Surely you mean that the schedule that goes into effect in May (i.e. the new schedule, or one quite close to it) is the one that was used between NOL and LAX, when the SSL ran to Orlando, as say in the 2001 timetable?

Notwithstanding all the bellyaching that is going on here about SAS, in 2001 SAS timings were 4:11a - 5:25a eastbound and 2:50a - 3:40a westbound.

That has nothing to do with two years anyway. If Amtrak wanted to run a train from NOL to JAX they could pretty much do so tomorrow subject to negotiations with CSX and scrounging together of three consists, or one for bi-weekly service, which is quite independent of anything that happens west of NOL.


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## afigg (Mar 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> As I understand it San Antonio currently has more O&D than Houston, Tuscon, and Maricopa combined (see below). Over time I can see those three cities picking up whatever is lost at San Antonio, but I do not foresee major improvements in total passenger numbers anytime soon. So long as this route remains less than daily it will probably continue to simply tread water like it has for many years now. If we accept that a major increase in total numbers is unlikely then it becomes clear that the real jewel in this whole change up is another free train set to use elsewhere. I don't see it becoming a regular addition to any one route so much as an emergency backup set. Something Amtrak can use for recovery purposes after the next commercial vehicle "accident" has occurred and taken yet another train out of service.


The freed up equipment is only part of the benefits to Amtrak from an operational viewpoint. The SL/TE PIP report discusses the inefficient use of personnel with a long layover in NOL. The SL loses significantly more money per passenger than any other Amtrak train. The FY12 projected budget loss is $373 per passenger which puts a big target on it for the cost cutters in Congress. Amtrak has to do something to reduce the losses and improve cost recovery.

You may not like it, but this schedule change may well the best option that Amtrak can achieve within the constraints they have. Picking a fight with UP over daily service in the current political environment may have repercussions. Amtrak does not have the funds to pay to restore service to Phoenix or pay for signal & track upgrades for the SL east corridor for better trip times there. The best long term, and I mean really long term, prospects for Phoenix and SL East service would be state supported corridor service (Phoenix to Tucson, Pensacola to Jacksonville FL for example). Meanwhile, Amtrak can only try to trim the losses. The SL will likely still lose the most money per passenger, but if they can get it so it is not losing more than 2 times per passenger of any LD train, that should improve its survival prospects.

The other choice may be to face the prospects of no SL service at all. Which would make for a _very long_ layover wait in San Antonio.

Looking at the proposed (daily) schedule in the PIP report, that schedule had the SL/TE arriving in LA at 5:05 AM and departing LA at 11:30 PM. So the LAX times have been made a little better. If the westbound SL is running very early, maybe the plan is to have it sit in Ontario or Pomona CA so it does not get in before 5 AM.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 14, 2012)

afigg said:


> The SL loses significantly more money per passenger than any other Amtrak train. The FY12 projected budget loss is $373 per passenger which puts a big target on it for the cost cutters in Congress. Amtrak has to do something to reduce the losses and improve cost recovery. You may not like it, but this schedule change may well the best option that Amtrak can achieve within the constraints they have. Picking a fight with UP over daily service in the current political environment may have repercussions. Amtrak does not have the funds to pay to restore service to Phoenix or pay for signal & track upgrades for the SL east corridor for better trip times there. The SL will likely still lose the most money per passenger, but if they can get it so it is not losing more than 2 times per passenger of any LD train, that should improve its survival prospects.


Excellent points afigg. Hopefully the upside exceeds and outlives the downside. Better than losing the train entirely anyway. Just need to get a lot more creative in routing I suppose. Either that or start heading East, which really isn't my cup of tea until you hit Florida.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 14, 2012)

jis said:


> Surely you mean that the schedule that goes into effect in May (i.e. the new schedule, or one quite close to it) is the one that was used between NOL and LAX, when the SSL ran to Orlando, as say in the 2001 timetable?
> 
> That has nothing to do with two years anyway. If Amtrak wanted to run a train from NOL to JAX they could pretty much do so tomorrow subject to negotiations with CSX and scrounging together of three consists, or one for bi-weekly service, which is quite independent of anything that happens west of NOL.


I didn't. I can't recall, or don't know, most old schedules without looking at them, so my mistake. I'll review some of the old schedules in the handy Museum of Railway Timetables.

I suppose with the new Viewliner IIs coming into play, especially with the additional order being talked about, there could be an 'equipment change' in NOL for points east when/if enough equipment becomes available.


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## haolerider (Mar 14, 2012)

afigg said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > As I understand it San Antonio currently has more O&D than Houston, Tuscon, and Maricopa combined (see below). Over time I can see those three cities picking up whatever is lost at San Antonio, but I do not foresee major improvements in total passenger numbers anytime soon. So long as this route remains less than daily it will probably continue to simply tread water like it has for many years now. If we accept that a major increase in total numbers is unlikely then it becomes clear that the real jewel in this whole change up is another free train set to use elsewhere. I don't see it becoming a regular addition to any one route so much as an emergency backup set. Something Amtrak can use for recovery purposes after the next commercial vehicle "accident" has occurred and taken yet another train out of service.
> ...


After all is said and done.....negatives and positives.......the changes will allow Amtrak to utilize equipment that has been sitting in NOL under-utilized and save money on crew that have been housed in NOL waiting for their return trip. Early into LA should not be a major problem and as has been said by many people in many cities, "the train has to be somewhere in the middle of the night"......too bad it's your city!


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## LA guest (Mar 14, 2012)

Two points: if you need breakfast and you're at LAUS, after about 6 a.m. or so, you can go across the street to Olvera Street and eat at La Noche Buena, or down the block to Philippe. Or, you can hop the subway and go three stops if you want to go to the Original Pantry or any number of other legendary LA restaurants (the hilariously exotic Clifton's Cafeteria is set to reopen soon). If you're afraid to walk a block, train travel overall might not be your best option.

Regarding the change in hours across Texas, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts (or beigniets) that Amtrak will see traffic from Houston increase by several hundred percent. The new schedule will actually make it a viable option for many business travelers, and more appealing for pleasure travelers.


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## GAT (Mar 14, 2012)

Just my two cents' worth.....Living in San Francisco and loving New Orleans, I just love this new schedule. With all due respect to San Antonians and related connecting passengers, this schedule makes the western USA "Great Circle" route (CS, EB, City of New Orleans, CS) much more attractive.


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## Train2104 (Mar 14, 2012)

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249238713922&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_ATK-12-018_Sunset_schedule_change.pdf



> Arriving Train 1 sleeping car passengers at Los Angeles will be invited to remain aboard the train until 6:30 a.m.


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## saxman (Mar 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> -Houston 19,637
> 
> -Tuscon 23,340
> 
> ...


Remember that these numbers also include Texas Eagle passengers going north and coming from the south.

From the Spring 2002 Timetable:

#1 Ar. SAS- 2:40 AM______Dp. SAS- 3:50 AM........2 hours 10 minute layover

#2 Ar. SAS- 5:01 AM______Dp. SAS- 6:00 AM........59 minute layover

#421 Ar. SAS- 11:45 PM______Dp. SAS- 3:50 AM.......4 hours 5 minute layover

#422 Ar. SAS- 5:01 AM______Dp. SAS- 7:30 AM.......2 hours 29 minute layover

From the Spring 2006 Timetable:

#421.....5 hours 55 minute layover

#422......9 hours 35 minute layover!!!


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## afigg (Mar 14, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Surely you mean that the schedule that goes into effect in May (i.e. the new schedule, or one quite close to it) is the one that was used between NOL and LAX, when the SSL ran to Orlando, as say in the 2001 timetable?
> ...


If the FEC really takes off as a corridor service, that could make Jacksonville - at either possible station location - a stronger hub with a bigger passenger base and connecting service to the eastern FL coast cities. If Amtrak were to order additional CAF Viewliner diners, baggage-dorms, and sleepers, they could conceivably use them for a Orlando-Jacksonville-New Orleans run. Looking up a 2004 schedule, the ORL-JAX-NOL route is 769 miles, which is above the 750 miles LD train cutoff. (Hmm, interesting coincidence).

Probability of Amtrak doing this is rather small, but on the other hand, it would restore service across a large gap in the system. If running to Orlando is a problem, have the train run down the FEC to Miami (and to the Hialeah service facility). Or split the train at Jacksonville, with one half going to Orlando, the other half to Miami over the FEC providing an additional daytime train on the FEC. Or just have a connection in JAX to a FEC corridor train. The train would roughly follow the 2004 schedule with a overnight run between NOL and JAX with connections in NOL ideally to the SL, CONO (with a longish but same day wait), and ideally the Crescent (if the Crescent 7 AM NOL departure could be moved to later). The schedule would provide a Jacksonville to Tallahassee day time service.

How many people in eastern FL would take a daily service day train to Tallahassee, late evening/early morning times at Pensacola, and overnight to NOL with connections to the CONO and SL 3 days a week? As I wrote, probability of Amtrak doing this is remote, but on the other hand, if someone in Congress or the Senate demands a restoration of the service in a few years, having reserve single level Viewliners and some Horizons sitting around would allow Amtrak to provide it.


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## Blackshirt Husker (Mar 14, 2012)

I take 421 (Texas Eagle) out of Chicago to LA in June. So far, no call from Amtrak, but am I right in guessing that the only change for Texas Eagle passengers is the shorter layover in San Antonio?

I understand the rationale but kind of hate to see it--I actually enjoyed the longer layover in San Antonio, would usually step off the train to check out San Antonio, go to Whattaburger, etc. Sounds like that can still happen, but with much more of a time crunch. :/

And yeah, as others have mentioned, it would be great if Amtrak would allow sleeper and coach passengers to stay on the train at least until 6 am when arriving in LA. 5:30 am is not great but doable-- the problem comes when the train pulls in 90 minutes early and you're getting the 3:30 am wakeup to start packing up your stuff.


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## ColdRain&Snow (Mar 14, 2012)

haolerider said:


> After all is said and done.....negatives and positives.......the changes will allow Amtrak to utilize equipment that has been sitting in NOL under-utilized and save money on crew that have been housed in NOL waiting for their return trip.


I rode the_ Sunset Limited_ out to New Orleans this week and overheard the crew talking about their fun plans for the layover. It must be one of the most coveted gigs in the Amtrak system to have 3 nights and 2 full days in the Crescent City in between legs. Though a good gig for the OBSC, it certainly must be an expensive proposition for Amtrak. I would think this change might cause the route to lose some cache among the crew members who vie to bid on it.


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## henryj (Mar 14, 2012)

saxman said:


> Yeah I hardly think the loss of a decent time in SAS is going to affect anything really. It was 5:40 am and now its 2:45 am. This mean instead of getting up at 3 or 4 in the morning, you just stay up really late and get to the station around 2. I'd much rather do that unless you are use to getting up at that hour. Another big reason for the improvement is to tighten the layover in SAS. Espcially those going eastbound on 422, we're always horrified when they find out that they get into SAS at 10 pm, and have to sit there for 9 hours when all they wanted to do was go to Austin, only 80 miles away.
> 
> Amtrak has been working on this for awhile now. I heard UP was giving them a lot of road blocks, as they didn't want to change the schedule again. But sounds like they came to an agreement.
> 
> Now if we could get a same day connection to any train in NOL....I suppose that is impossible though.


Saxman, when I rode the train I believe it is open from the time it arrives in SAS. So you don't have to wait until 2am to board, you could board at midnight or earlier if the train is early.


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## henryj (Mar 14, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> -Houston 19,637
> 
> -Tuscon 23,340
> 
> ...


Actual boardings for the Sunset in San Antonio are around 20,000. The rest of that is for the Eagle. The Sunset over it's history has often been carded into LAUPT early, sometimes as early as 6:35 so this is not particularly alarming. San Antonio has always been in the wrong place time wise with late evening, middle of the night or early morning schedules. Nothing unusual there. The improved times into Maricopa(Phoenix), Tucson and Houston will easily trump any inconvenience in SAS. This should help the train improve it's performance and costs plus it stops wasting that extra train set that just sat in NOL doing nothing. Most of this was published in the Amtrak performance review which recommended daily service. They have finally made the changes all except the daily part. There is no equipment to do the daily thing correctly so this is the best we can get for now.


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## AlanB (Mar 14, 2012)

Train2104 said:


> http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249238713922&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobheadername1=Content-disposition&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename=Amtrak_ATK-12-018_Sunset_schedule_change.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> > Arriving Train 1 sleeping car passengers at Los Angeles will be invited to remain aboard the train until 6:30 a.m.


Great, just what I need. Someone waking me up at 4:30 AM to invite me to remain on the train until 6:30 AM. :lol:


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## The Journalist (Mar 15, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Train2104 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.amtrak.co...dule_change.pdf
> ...


This is EXACTLY what I pictured as well.


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## ColdRain&Snow (Mar 15, 2012)

The Journalist said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Train2104 said:
> ...


Amtrak's timetable footnote notwithstanding, it's just too easy to imagine the scenario where some SCAs will be banging bunks, ramming seats back up, and slamming storage doors to "help" people get up sooner than later. For those who choose to stay until 6:30A, they may find more onboard hostility than onboard hospitality. I hope I'm wrong about this but that's my gut feeling.


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## cirdan (Mar 15, 2012)

ColdRain&Snow said:


> Amtrak's timetable footnote notwithstanding, it's just too easy to imagine the scenario where some SCAs will be banging bunks, ramming seats back up, and slamming storage doors to "help" people get up sooner than later. For those who choose to stay until 6:30A, they may find more onboard hostility than onboard hospitality. I hope I'm wrong about this but that's my gut feeling.


On the other hand, seeing most sleeper passengers tend to tip the attendants on leaving the train, that may not be the time when they would want to put a nasty end to an otherwise pleasant journey.


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## Anderson (Mar 15, 2012)

cirdan said:


> ColdRain&Snow said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak's timetable footnote notwithstanding, it's just too easy to imagine the scenario where some SCAs will be banging bunks, ramming seats back up, and slamming storage doors to "help" people get up sooner than later. For those who choose to stay until 6:30A, they may find more onboard hostility than onboard hospitality. I hope I'm wrong about this but that's my gut feeling.
> ...


Bingo. An SCA who makes a huge racket trying to run folks off the train at the end of a two-day run could easily cost themselves out $100 or more in tips in a full car. Unless service had been amazing up until then, a clearly purposeful racket would likely have me "forgetting" a tip.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 15, 2012)

Anderson said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > Seeing most sleeper passengers tend to tip the attendants on leaving the train, that may not be the time when they would want to put a nasty end to an otherwise pleasant journey.
> ...


Whatever the actual loss may be, it would still need to be _perceived_ as substantially worse than giving two hours of "free" labor to Amtrak in the mind of the SCA. Otherwise they may very well have no problem waking you up and getting you on your way.

Also, I don't think you ever responded to this...



Texas Sunset said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > As to allowing sleeper vs. coach occupancy, I think the argument is more or less the multiple of a coach fare that sleeper passengers pay. There's a certain amount of aggravation that comes from paying lots and lots of money only to have an unpleasant surprise in the middle of the night.
> ...


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## saxman (Mar 15, 2012)

Anyone know what the contract for the SCA's actually say as far as payment when the train arrives? Do they stop getting paid at the actual time of arrival or are they paid for the scheduled time, whichever comes later?

Most scheduled transportation jobs, I think it would be the latter. If the train arrives 60 minutes early, that means the on board crew gets screwed out of one hour of pay, but if it reads in the contract, no matter how early the train arrives, they'll still get paid that hour. That's how it works in the airline world at least.

Of course getting the crew to stay on board another hour or two, when they probably just want to get home opens up another can of worms.


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## Trogdor (Mar 15, 2012)

Crews are paid based on scheduled times (or actual, if later). If trains arrive early, crews still get paid until scheduled arrival time.

In the case of sleeper occupancy until 6:30 am, then the sleeper attendant would be paid until 6:30 am.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 15, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> Crews are paid based on scheduled times (or actual, if later). If trains arrive early, crews still get paid until scheduled arrival time. In the case of sleeper occupancy until 6:30 am, then the sleeper attendant would be paid until 6:30 am.


Interesting. Would payment for those hours be impacted by an SCA making noise and/or getting on the PA system and/or knocking on doors to indirectly nudge people off the train by waking them up to welcome them to stay longer? In other words, if everyone is off the train do they still get paid until 6:30? Would anyone in charge of salaries even know that the sleeper was empty at that point? I've had sleeper attendants get on the PA to tell us that they need everyone to help clean up their rooms so they can go home as soon as we pull into the station when the train was already ahead of schedule.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 15, 2012)

Very Interesting Topic!  Wonder if one of our Amtrak Employee Members can fill us in on the Contract and the Actual Plan (if any???) for the Arrival into LAX!!! :help: I too have been on Many LD Trains that were Arriving Early into the Terminal and the SCAs and Coach Attendants and LSAs were in a Big Hurry to get Everything Cleaned Up and In Order(including Boxing up Breakfast, waking up Sleeper Pax and taking up the Pillows in Coach and LOCKING the Restrooms!!!  , Setting the Luggage in the Vestibule etc. so they could Literally Run off the Train when it Arrived Early! CHI, LAX,WAS and NOL seem to be where this happens the most IME!!! (Fastest Person in the World: An Amtrak OBS Running Down the Platform when the Train Arrives @ the Terminal!!!  :lol: )


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## ColdRain&Snow (Mar 15, 2012)

My experiences corroborate those that Jim describes above when riding #1 and #3 into LA. Crews are long gone before actual arrival times when the train is early, and there is a palpable sense of urgency in the car that everyone is to get off as soon as the train stops (even though the attendant is being paid until 8:15/8:30). I don't find it to be a particularly compelling argument that just because SCAs will be paid until 6:30A, it will ensure that they patiently honor that occupancy time. To be fair, they have just come home from multiple days on the road and are probably fatigued, especially in the dawn hours of the last day. So, the question becomes whether or not their desire to go home outweighs their concerns about tipping consequences of running passengers off the train as quickly as possible. There's not a slam dunk answer to that question.


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## jis (Mar 15, 2012)

I have always thought that it is only fair to pay the OBS something like half hour past arrival time, if Amtrak is truly serious about providing good customer experience at the destination station.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 15, 2012)

My experience is that on both #1 & #3 there is an ingrained culture, on the part of the LA based crews, of getting everyone off ASAP at LAX. The excuse used is that the train can't 'linger' at the platform at LAX becuase the track will be needed for other arrivals. IMHO I think this is going to be tough to change, short of someone from management  boarding #1 in Palm Springs!


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## LA guest (Mar 15, 2012)

TAs do get paid "strip time", if needed, beyond the scheduled end of their shifts upon arrival. Stripping linens, taking out trash, etc., all takes time, and if it can't be done in the scheduled time, they are entitled to be paid for the actual time it takes.

As far as arrival in LA, I can't imagine most people would want to stay lounging in bed while at the platform. There is lots of outside noise, and there will be onboard announcements (regarding redcaps, luggage, etc.), so anyone who really wants to stay on the train until 6:30 if it arrives an hour early is just a masochist or hellbent on some kind of childish control impulse.


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## the_traveler (Mar 15, 2012)

When the Night Owl had the "executive sleeper", it was cut off in NYP or could be occupied early at NYP. Likewise it could be occupied early or late at WAS also. So what is the difference between the outside noise at NYP or WAS and LAX?


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 15, 2012)

LA guest said:


> so anyone who really wants to stay on the train until 6:30 if it arrives an hour early is just a masochist or hellbent on some kind of childish control impulse.


I'm an early riser and wouldn't 'linger' past 5:00, when Starbucks opens and I could get coffee, but the above is more than a tad harsh. :help: I know folks who could sleep through a tornado. In fact, I'd put money on my sister-in-law ending up in the yard if she ever took #1, as she sleeps heavily until at least 8:00. Not everyone is a 'morning person.'


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 15, 2012)

the_traveler said:


> When the Night Owl had the "executive sleeper", it was cut off in NYP or could be occupied early at NYP. Likewise it could be occupied early or late at WAS also. So what is the difference between the outside noise at NYP or WAS and LAX?



Exactly. I only took 'the subway hotel' - as the SCA called it - once. But I didn't feel a thing when we were left off at NYP. It surprised me when I woke that it we were sitting still. In fact it was the 'quiet' that woke me up!


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## Palmland (Mar 15, 2012)

Glad to see the extra hour at LAUPT as I am contemplating a trip this summer. I would imagine no one would actually sleep until 0630, but the ability to wake up upon arrival and then take your time about cleaning up a bit and dressing would make the early arrival time half way bearable.

Certainly there is precedent for that at Amtrak as mentioned. I did in fact take the executive sleeper from Washington and was undisturbed in NYP until time to get off. Before that the Pullman co. had many sleepers where occupancy was later than arrival time. But as always with Amtrak, they may have the best of intentions but reality is often different.


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## LA guest (Mar 15, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> LA guest said:
> 
> 
> > so anyone who really wants to stay on the train until 6:30 if it arrives an hour early is just a masochist or hellbent on some kind of childish control impulse.
> ...


If they can sleep through a tornado, they might wake up in the yard. Scheduled arrival time is 5:35 a.m., and I doubt that the regular employee schedule has TAs working later than 6:30 or so. If the train arrives at 5:00, and someone plans to stay in bed until 6:30, they'll probably end up with about 30 seconds to exit the train before it's pulled to the yard...also, given that TAs have work to do (such as emptying the coffee, and taking water and juice off the train, not to mention taking paperwork to the crew base), anyone still on the train might be on their own. In my TA experience, those who are the most demanding (such as staying in bed right to the platform) are also highly unlikely to leave a tip, no matter how much the TA might have bent over backward to please them. Counterintuitive though it may be, the biggest tips come from the least demanding passengers.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 15, 2012)

LA guest said:


> Anyone who really wants to stay on the train until 6:30 if it arrives an hour early is just a masochist or hellbent on some kind of childish control impulse.


Wow, you sound just like several of the Sunset SCA's I've had over the years.



LA guest said:


> Counterintuitive though it may be, the biggest tips come from the least demanding passengers.


Or maybe people who never had a need to cross you gave you the benefit of the doubt and tipped well while those who ended up on your bad side left little or nothing as a result of seeing your response to their requests. You don't exactly come off as a helpful sort of person aiming to please.


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## Anderson (Mar 15, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> LA guest said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who really wants to stay on the train until 6:30 if it arrives an hour early is just a masochist or hellbent on some kind of childish control impulse.
> ...


It's not counterintuitive. I'm usually a pretty good tipper, and I rarely ask more than the basic level of service (i.e. for my bed to be made up/taken down, for a wakeup call in the morning, and to be pointed to the dining car). You tend to get two clusters of folks: Those who make lots and lots of requests and offer nothing, and those who are pretty low maintenance but who tip well for what they get. I like to think that I fall into the latter category...but I've seen both categories before on plenty of occasions.


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## Montanan (Mar 15, 2012)

You know, back in the day when Pullman travel was the standard in America, set-out sleeping cars were very common, and overnight trains would regularly pick up and drop off short-haul sleepers at intermediate stations all over the country. It was standard practice to allow passengers using those cars to board them at 10 or 11 PM, and to occupy them till 7 or 8 AM, regardless of the actual train times. Though most of that was before my time, I get the sense that it was a very well-used service, and a great marketing tool ... essentially marketing the train as a moving hotel room for business travelers.

Those days aren't coming back in the broader sense, because Amtrak won't have the equipment ... and they'd want it more heavily utilized than they did. But it's a mindset that would work well in a few places today, including on the new Sunset schedule. But Amtrak would have to make the mindset part of its on-board culture, and sell it to the public with some amenities -- a box breakfast available on the stopped train at LA, ability to schedule a 6:30 redcap in advance, that sort of thing.

That sort of marketing still takes place on some overseas services, such as the sleeper trains between London and Scotland. They'd be a good model for Amtrak.


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## Gratt (Mar 15, 2012)

I have to agree that getting into LAX at 5:30 is way to early even if they do let you stay till 6:30.

I much rather arrive at 6:30 and be able to get out as late as 7:30.

The same is true for SAS east bound getting in at 6:00AM is far more acceptable than 4:50AM

Crazy idea here- maybe the solution should be to at a few more stops west of SAS.

I bet their are a few tiny towns in between that could supply some demand.

The other option is to extend the layover in MRC. I am fine with either option :giggle:


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## Donctor (Mar 15, 2012)

Montanan said:


> That sort of marketing still takes place on some overseas services, such as the sleeper trains between London and Scotland. They'd be a good model for Amtrak.


The Caledonians are indeed a good example of this type of stuff working. Of course, though, those trains are much less like "land cruises" than Amtrak.


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## Anderson (Mar 15, 2012)

Donctor said:


> Montanan said:
> 
> 
> > That sort of marketing still takes place on some overseas services, such as the sleeper trains between London and Scotland. They'd be a good model for Amtrak.
> ...


The Caledonians are not unlike the Silvers, the Lake Shore, or the Cap in many regards. The trip is somewhat shorter for the Caledonian (or the Cornwall service) than these, but the structure isn't _that_ different.


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## Donctor (Mar 15, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Donctor said:
> 
> 
> > Montanan said:
> ...


Eh. The Caledonians don't serve intermediate markets. (So maybe they're similar to the Cap.)


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## jis (Mar 15, 2012)

Donctor said:


> Eh. The Caledonians don't serve intermediate markets. (So maybe they're similar to the Cap.)


The Cap doesn't serve intermediate markets? What is Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Cumberland?

I can't think of a truly equivalent Amtrak service. If there were a Silver Train that went non-stop from Washington DC to Jacksonville and then called at a few Florida stops, that would be more like the Caledonian Sleepers.


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## Anderson (Mar 15, 2012)

Donctor said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Donctor said:
> ...


Well, they don't serve south-of-Scotland markets...but there are cars sent on three different routes, and I think you have multiple stops served by the Ft. William sleeper. Also, the one-night journey in particular is what I was thinking of.

Just a thought, but it is a real shame that the amended schedule on the Sunset couldn't be supplemented by a Hoosier State-esque (I know, bad train to call upon) NOL-HOU/SAS train that would run on the other four days. I can see the reason for not having daily service Tuscon-San Antonio (it's a lightly-populated, lightly-traveled gap), and a Tuscon-LAX train would be problematic (though it could probably be handled with an "enhanced cafe" service in lieu of a full diner, given that there's only one meal either way).


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 15, 2012)

Anderson said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > LA guest said:
> ...



I too am not demanding, am self-sufficient actually, but am a very good tipper, even when I just receive minimally average service. The only exception is when I hit a really bad attitude in the OBS. Someone who thinks their job is completely about them, and that the 'talking cattle' need to be prodded into submission, would be an example of what I'm talking about. Lazy OBS really dislike veteran Amtrak riders because they can't be so easily 'bullfarkied.' "LA quest," if they were/are a SCA, would be one I would be very, very tempted to not tip well, if at all. I've given 'lesser' tips, but never not tipped. However, push me far enough... People that are in jobs that involve customer service, and hate people, should do everyone a favor and find a job that is better suited to them.


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## dart330 (Mar 15, 2012)

I agree a daily train from SAS-NOL would be great. There is a huge population in the area simply an overnight train ride away from one another, vs the 2 nights it takes going LAX - NOL. I saw an idea posted previously, why not just have the TE/CONO run in a loop CHI-SAS-NOL-CHI and vice versa?

With all my complaints about the much longer SAS layover, it is good to see the CS connection restored and I hope I can take advantage of it in the future.


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## Donctor (Mar 15, 2012)

jis said:


> The Cap doesn't serve intermediate markets? What is Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Cumberland?


I don't know. Never heard of 'em.


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## Montanan (Mar 15, 2012)

East of San Antonio, the Sunset's schedule is just ridiculously slow compared to the competition ... it would be a great corridor, but to be more than marginally competitive I think the schedule would need to be speeded up.

If we're daydreaming about hopeless possibilities, my vote would be daily service between LA and Arizona ... but of course to be really successful that would require reopening the line to Phoenix. I rode the Sunset back in the early 90s when it was still running through Phoenix, and there was a surprisingly high amount of LA-Phoenix traffic back then.


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## The Davy Crockett (Mar 15, 2012)

Montanan said:


> East of San Antonio, the Sunset's schedule is just ridiculously slow compared to the competition ... it would be a great corridor, but to be more than marginally competitive I think the schedule would need to be speeded up.
> 
> If we're daydreaming about hopeless possibilities, my vote would be daily service between LA and Arizona ... but of course to be really successful that would require reopening the line to Phoenix. I rode the Sunset back in the early 90s when it was still running through Phoenix, and there was a surprisingly high amount of LA-Phoenix traffic back then.


I think these are both excellent points. It will be interesting to see how much business Amtrak can actually pick up with a thrice weekly train with these factors in play.


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## AudenHoggart (Mar 15, 2012)

It may be on this thread somewhere, but what are the implications of the SL schedule change on TE timings between San Antonio and Chicago?


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## afigg (Mar 15, 2012)

AudenHoggart said:


> It may be on this thread somewhere, but what are the implications of the SL schedule change on TE timings between San Antonio and Chicago?


There was no statement about any changes in the TE schedule in the press release on the SL change. The 2010 PIP report recommended that the TE depart CHI later, but no such change shows up when I try to book a late May TE from CHI to SAS. Maybe there will be a TE #21 schedule change annouced later.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 16, 2012)

afigg said:


> AudenHoggart said:
> 
> 
> > It may be on this thread somewhere, but what are the implications of the SL schedule change on TE timings between San Antonio and Chicago?
> ...


The only change for the Tri-Weekly TE#421/#21 Departing CHI for LAX is that the Third Day will now be Friday instead of Thursday! It will Still Leave CHI @ the scheduled time of 1:45PM, run the Same Schedule to SAS!!


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## johnny.menhennet (Mar 16, 2012)

Other than the different day of departure for one of the southbound #421's, there are currently none. Amtrak is going to wait for at least most of the CHI-STL upgrades to be completed first.


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## ScottC4746 (Mar 16, 2012)

Here is the new schedule compared with the old. What I did was go to Amtrak.com and piece it together since it is not posted yet. Where you see for example 12:47 PM/12:57 PM that means Arrives at 12:47 and departs at 12:57 PM. Please note, I did not notate the operations days as we all know what they are from the press release...and frankly at 10 PM I am too tired to deal with that.

1 Current	1 New City 2 Current	2 New

11:55 AM	9:00 AM New Orleans 2:55 PM 9:40 PM

1:25 PM 10:30 AM Schriever 12:03 PM 7:03 PM

2:51 PM 11:56 AM New Iberia 10:41 AM	5:41 PM

3:19 PM 12:24 PM Lafayette 10:15 AM	5:12 PM/5:15 PM

4:50 PM 1:55 PM Lake Charles 8:29 AM	3:29 PM

6:43 PM 3:34 PM/3:48 PM	Beaumont 7:05 AM	1:53 PM/2:05 PM

913 PM/9:50 PM 6:18 PM/6:55 PM	Houston	4:40 AM/5:10 AM	11:10 AM/12:10 PM

3:00 AM/5:40 AM	12:05 AM/2:45 AM	San Antonio	9:50 PM/11:55 PM	4:50 AM/6:25 AM

8:35 AM	5:49 AM	Del Rio	6:02 PM	1:02 AM

11:10 AM	8:24 AM	Sanderson	3:36 PM	10:36 PM

1:24 PM	10:38 AM	Alpine	1:45 PM	8:45 PM

4:15 PM/4:40 PM	1:22 PM/1:47 PM	El Paso	8:10 AM/8:35 AM	3:10 PM/3:35 PM

6:11 PM	3:18 PM	Deming	6:10 AM	1:10 PM

7:06 PM	4:13 PM	Lordsburg	5:15 AM	12:15 PM

9:11 PM	5:18 PM	Benson	3:15 AM	9:15 AM

10:40 PM/11:30 PM	6:45 PM/7:35 PM	Tucson	1:26 AM/2:15 AM	7:28 AM/8:15 AM

12:47 AM/12:57 AM	8:52 PM/9:02 PM	Maricopa	11:28 PM/11:38 PM	5:30 AM/5:40 AM

3:44 AM	11:49 PM	Yuma	8:45 PM	2:47 AM

4:54 AM	2:02 AM	Palm Springs	5:35 PM	12:36 PM

6:46 AM	3:54 AM	Ontario	3:54 PM	10:54 PM

6:56 AM	4:04 AM	Pomona	3:41 PM	10:41 PM

8:30 AM	5:35 AM	Los Angeles	3:00 PM	10:00 PM

Well, it did not exactly format properly. Hope you all can read it. I don't have the time or patience to try to fix it.


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## afigg (Mar 16, 2012)

ScottC4746 said:


> Here is the new schedule compared with the old. What I did was go to Amtrak.com and piece it together since it is not posted yet. Where you see for example 12:47 PM/12:57 PM that that.


The entire revised SL schedule is listed in the Amtrak press release which is on the website and was linked to earlier in this thread.


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## henryj (Mar 16, 2012)

A copy of the Amtrak letter to UP is here.

http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-limited-west/browse_thread/thread/cce5a792549f9ffa?hl=en


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## Anderson (Mar 16, 2012)

My favorite bit: Adding 30 minutes' dwell in Houston to avoid cutting the length of the run. :blink:


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## afigg (Mar 16, 2012)

henryj said:


> A copy of the Amtrak letter to UP is here.
> 
> http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-limited-west/browse_thread/thread/cce5a792549f9ffa?hl=en


Thanks for the link. Useful to see the actual wording of the agreement between UP and Amtrak on the 2 year period. Which costs Amtrak nothing, except keeping the 3 day a week service, because Amtrak will not have the equipment to add new service to any UP route in the west for the next 2 years.

California is studying a LA to Palm Springs/Coachella valley service, which would be a state supported corridor so does not fall under the agreement, but until CA orders and receives enough new bi-level cars to support it, they can't add the service. So, even if CA starts planning a service and brings Amtrak & UP into the process, official requests and agreements are probably more than 2 years off.

In 2 years, UP may have finished or be close to finishing the double tracking from LA to El Paso. The Colton Crossing flyover in CA should be nearly done as well. Will be more difficult for UP to demand exorbitant amounts of money with a straight face by then to run a daily SL.


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## Anderson (Mar 16, 2012)

afigg said:


> henryj said:
> 
> 
> > A copy of the Amtrak letter to UP is here.
> ...


I'm just wondering, but is it possible that UP would actually have a bit of spare capacity to play with by then (i.e. they'd have more slots on their tracks for the trains to run without getting in the way of freights that it would behoove them to lease)? Not that UP likes having passenger trains on their tracks, but a filled slot is a filled slot.

Of course, I expect them to fight for a siding or two...but as I said somewhere else, siding-related deals aren't unreasonable given the speed differentials involved on long runs.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2012)

Anderson said:


> I'm just wondering, but is it possible that UP would actually have a bit of spare capacity to play with by then (i.e. they'd have more slots on their tracks for the trains to run without getting in the way of freights that it would behoove them to lease)? Not that UP likes having passenger trains on their tracks, but a filled slot is a filled slot. Of course, I expect them to fight for a siding or two...but as I said somewhere else, siding-related deals aren't unreasonable given the speed differentials involved on long runs.


I don't think you can "spend a loss" on a new siding. Since there are likely to be no new infrastructure funds in the foreseeable future I'm not sure where Amtrak would get the money for something like that. Even if they could I'm not sure the increasing debt would be worth it.


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## trainman74 (Mar 17, 2012)

And I have to give Amtrak _additional_ partial credit, since in addition to the voicemail about the schedule change, they did send an email as well -- I found it in my junk folder, but I made sure to "whitelist" the sender address so I'll see such emails in the future.

However, still only partial credit, because this was the email:



> Our records indicate that you are scheduled to depart on Amtrak Train number 0421 from Chicago-ILLINOIS at 1:45PM on Thursday June 14 and arriving in Los-Angeles-CALIFORNIA. That schedule has been cancelled due to . There is no alternate service available. To speak to a customer service representative about travel options such as selecting another date or destination call us at 8772319448 at your earliest convenience. We apologize for any inconvenience and thank you for being a valued Amtrak customer. Sincerely, Amtrak .


 Someone needs to work on getting all the fields filled in these emails ("due to..." _what?_), improving the messaging ("There is no alternate service available" is not particularly accurate in this case), and improving the way they look to a human ("Chicago-ILLINOIS"? 8772319448? How about "Chicago, Illinois" and "877-231-9448"?).


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## Aaron (Mar 25, 2012)

Here's something goofy related to the schedule change. I'm in Tucson, and I've wanted to take my young kids on a short train trip for a long time, but since the Sunset Limited comes through here in the middle of the night, it just was impossible. Now, with daytime service, I can actually pull it off.

I went to amtrak.com to book tickets for the first Saturday after the change, 5/12/12, and the website only gave the option to mail tickets, not to pick them up. I'd rather not get the tickets by the mail just in case I have to refund them, so I thought that was weird. I looked into it more on the website, and it said that mail delivery was the only option because the station wasn't scheduled to be open or staffed at the time of departure. Since the station opens in the middle of the night for the current runs, I have no doubt they'll be opening it in the morning for an 8:15 departure. But, since the current nighttime hours are the ones programmed into the computer system, the computer chokes.

I'm going to call tomorrow to see if someone can override on the phone, but I thought it was weird. I wonder if that impacts the ticketing for any other stop on the route? Most other stations on the route are either completely unstaffed, open 24 hours, or have the new schedule fitting in their existing hours from what I can see, so I'm guessing it's just ticketing out of TUS and maybe MRC that would be affected.


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