# Elizabeth Line and some additional bits about Transport for London



## v v

I rode a very short part of this new line twice 2 days before it was 'officially' opened by the Queen yesterday and have a couple of poor quality photos, anyone interested?

We crammed a week's worth of doing things while back in the UK into 3 days and now back completely knackered with again much to do. I'll be happy to upload the photos by the end of the week if any interest.

Be warned though, the trains look to my inexperienced eye very very similar to many others running on this line but were obviously new or seriously refurbished. Pretty and subtle colour scheme though.


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## Deni

Cool! How did you get to ride on it? Was there some sort of "soft opening?"


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## jis

Here are the details from the proverbial horse's mouth...





__





Phased Opening


The Elizabeth line is now open. Opening any railway is a massive job. With new stations, new infrastructure, new track and new trains, it is important that the Elizabeth line is opened in phases to ensure it is safe, reliable, performs as expected and is maintainable. Learn more about the...




www.crossrail.co.uk





Incidentally, the Class 345s have been running on overground service associated with the overall Elizabeth Line project since sometime in 2018. Reading and Heathrow service to Paddington started using them in 2020.


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## v v

Deni said:


> Cool! How did you get to ride on it? Was there some sort of "soft opening?"



As jis has kindly shown it is a phased opening, the section of line I was on has existed forever, only the train sets have changed. 

Any opening by the Queen is often after the enterprise has started and been proven for a short while. The real opening will be when Essex is connected directly to Heathrow by a single train, that will be a game changer. I have much travelling across London with bags experience of the Victorian sections of that journey. Interesting, curious in a modern world and hard work.


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## jis

v v said:


> As jis has kindly shown it is a phased opening, the section of line I was on has existed forever, only the train sets have changed.


If you were on the Western third out of Paddington then the Reading Service was operated variously by Great Western and others as suburban service out of Paddington, and the Heathrow service was operated by Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect. All of those have now been transferred to TfL's Elizabeth Line Service apparently.


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## v v

No the eastern section from Liverpool Street to Shenfield, the opposite side of Greater London to Heathrow


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## jis

v v said:


> No the eastern section from Liverpool Street to Shenfield, the opposite side of Greater London to Heathrow


Was that operated by Greater Anglia before it was taken over by TfL?


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## v v

Shenfield is a terminus in it's own right for both TfL and for some of the Greater Anglia Southend to Shenfield trains. 
Greater Anglia western terminus is Liverpool Street for all or most other eastern destinations and tend not to stop at more than one or two stations between LS and Shenfield. 

Small piece of useless local infomation about Shenfield station. Platform numbering after going through the main entrance is 6,5,4,3,2,1 which tends to suggest perhaps the main entrance was once the other side of the station?


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## Mystic River Dragon

v v said:


> I rode a very short part of this new line twice 2 days before it was 'officially' opened by the Queen yesterday and have a couple of poor quality photos, anyone interested?



Oh yes, please, Jamie! I’d love to see the photos and hear what you thought of it.

I saw a lovely video clip of the Queen visiting and being shown how to use an Oyster card. She looked healthier and more energetic than she has for a while (proving that trains are good for everyone?).

Andy Byford, Commissioner of Transport for London (the person some of us would have liked to run Amtrak), was also shown briefly, but the clip didn’t say if he got to say hello to the Queen or help her with her Oyster card.


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## jis

So the Queen basically inaugurated the Paddington Underground to Abbey Wood service. The West to Paddington Main Line and Liverpool Street Main Line to Shenfield continues as they were running for a while.


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## JontyMort

jis said:


> So the Queen basically inaugurated the Paddington Underground to Abbey Wood service. The West to Paddington Main Line and Liverpool Street Main Line to Shenfield continues as they were running for a while.


That’s right. At Paddington, the low level platforms will be in use - in effect as a temporary terminus - for traffic to and from the east. West of Paddington, everything will continue running to/from the main line platforms. Hopefully they stitch it all together in the end.


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## Deni

v v said:


> As jis has kindly shown it is a phased opening, the section of line I was on has existed forever, only the train sets have changed.
> 
> Any opening by the Queen is often after the enterprise has started and been proven for a short while. The real opening will be when Essex is connected directly to Heathrow by a single train, that will be a game changer. I have much travelling across London with bags experience of the Victorian sections of that journey. Interesting, curious in a modern world and hard work.


No, I know that part, the phased opening. So you were on the line that has already been running or were you actually in the new tunnel?


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## Willbridge

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh yes, please, Jamie! I’d love to see the photos and hear what you thought of it.
> 
> I saw a lovely video clip of the Queen visiting and being shown how to use an Oyster card. She looked healthier and more energetic than she has for a while (proving that trains are good for everyone?).
> 
> Andy Byford, Commissioner of Transport for London (the person some of us would have liked to run Amtrak), was also shown briefly, but the clip didn’t say if he got to say hello to the Queen or help her with her Oyster card.


I thought the Queen looked like she was enjoying it. And she looked good in the Ukrainian flag colours. It was a well-run event.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

v v said:


> Shenfield is a terminus in it's own right for both TfL and for some of the Greater Anglia Southend to Shenfield trains.


I remember riding from Southend Victoria to Liverpool St. in 1982 in an ancient slam door EMU that still had closed compartments (no gangways) Sounds like the service has come a long way since then. I did it strictly for the experience, my relatives thought I was crazy for not taking the much faster service to Fenchurch St. out of Southend Central.


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## jis

Deni said:


> No, I know that part, the phased opening. So you were on the line that has already been running or were you actually in the new tunnel?


Here is what he said up thread to a similar query...


v v said:


> No the eastern section from Liverpool Street to Shenfield, the opposite side of Greater London to Heathrow


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## caravanman

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I remember riding from Southend Victoria to Liverpool St. in 1982 in an ancient slam door EMU that still had closed compartments (no gangways) Sounds like the service has come a long way since then. I did it strictly for the experience, my relatives thought I was crazy for not taking the much faster service to Fenchurch St. out of Southend Central.


I left my job as a Locomotive "second man" with B.R. around 1978, but returned to the railways as a "guard" a few years later. I worked at Ilford Car Sheds, so I might well have been the guard on your train, above, from Southend Victoria to Liverpool Street in 1982. (I left for good in 1983, after a "misunderstanding" between me and a ticket inspector about my dodgy looking free pass...)


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## v v

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh yes, please, Jamie! I’d love to see the photos and hear what you thought of it.



Will do, at the weekend.



jis said:


> So the Queen basically inaugurated the Paddington Underground to Abbey Wood service. The West to Paddington Main Line and Liverpool Street Main Line to Shenfield continues as they were running for a while.



You have it in one, just as JontyMort wrote in greater detail.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> If you were on the Western third out of Paddington then the Reading Service was operated variously by Great Western and others as suburban service out of Paddington, and the Heathrow service was operated by Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect. All of those have now been transferred to TfL's Elizabeth Line Service apparently.


Are you saying that Heathrow Express is now fully replaced by Elizabeth Line?

Does this also mean the prohibitive fares this service used to charge are replaced by standard tfL zone-based fares? In other words that the fare is the same as for doing the same trip on the Piccadilly Line (which to me sounds like a fabulous but unexpected injection of sanity)


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## jis

cirdan said:


> Are you saying that Heathrow Express is now fully replaced by Elizabeth Line?
> 
> Does this also mean the prohibitive fares this service used to charge are replaced by standard tfL zone-based fares?


I think it is Heathrow Connect that went to TfL Heathrow Express remains separate with high fare. I see Heathrow Express still costs GBP 25 or GBP 32 one way depending on the class of travel.


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## cirdan

jis said:


> I think it is Heathrow Connect that went to TfL Heathrow Express remains separate with high fare. I see Heathrow Express still costs GBP 25 or GBP 32 one way depending on the class of travel.


Is there any advantage in opting for the higher fare, now that the argument of a shorter travel time is no more?


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## jis

cirdan said:


> Is there any advantage in opting for the higher fare, now that the argument of a shorter travel time is no more?


Someone other than me will have to give a balanced view on that. The only reason I ever rode Heathrow Express once or twice was for the novelty of it. Generally I continued to take the Piccadilly Line in from Heathrow since it dropped me almost by the front doorsteps of the hotels that I typically use when in London.


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## greatwestern

jis said:


> Someone other than me will have to give a balanced view on that. The only reason I ever rode Heathrow Express once or twice was for the novelty of it. Generally I continued to take the Piccadilly Line in from Heathrow since it dropped me almost by the front doorsteps of the hotels that I typically use when in London.


The Paddington "Heathrow Connect" service now under the banner of Tfl rail costs £11.60 (27 - 37 minute journey time, frequency 4 per hour) compared to Heathrow Express £25 (15 - 21 minute journey time, frequency 4 per hour).

The tube fare is £5.50 peak times, £3.50 off peak with a journey time (from Paddington involving changing tube lines) of between 55 and 60 minutes.

I'm never that pressed for time, so I'll leave it to you to guess what I would use (or I might even use the bus [2 changes needed], nearly 2 hours but cost of £0 using my all England OAP bus pass) !!


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## JontyMort

jis said:


> Someone other than me will have to give a balanced view on that. The only reason I ever rode Heathrow Express once or twice was for the novelty of it. Generally I continued to take the Piccadilly Line in from Heathrow since it dropped me almost by the front doorsteps of the hotels that I typically use when in London.


Yes, the Piccadilly Line still has much in its favour for getting to/from - say - South Kensington, with the added advantage that you get to go on one of the best parts of the Underground system - the quadruple track section west of Hammersmith. Until now, it has always depended on exactly where you were going, since getting to/from Paddington is often a long way round. On the other hand, the Elizabeth Line will - when they sort out through running - significantly improve access from LHR to the City and especially Docklands, with Canary Wharf only 17 minutes from Paddington. At that point, any incentive to switch trains at Paddington may disappear.


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## Deni

jis said:


> I think it is Heathrow Connect that went to TfL Heathrow Express remains separate with high fare. I see Heathrow Express still costs GBP 25 or GBP 32 one way depending on the class of travel.


Correct, Heathrow Express is still a separate, higher fare, service.


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## Deni

cirdan said:


> Is there any advantage in opting for the higher fare, now that the argument of a shorter travel time is no more?


I think the shorter travel time argument is still there, and still about 15 minutes difference. But I could see the express losing riders when you are able to take a one-seat ride on the Elizabeth from stations east of Paddington. And they'll eventually have more frequencies as well.


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## v v

The Underground route to Heathrow is dependant on where you start, also if you have bags or not as some of the stairs up and over track can be wearing. We honed our journey down to this route taking various factors into account.

We always travelled from the east of London, arriving in Liverpool Street main line station. From there either the Circle Line or Hammersmith & City tube to Hammersmith. Out of the station, across the road and within 40 yards into the other section of Hammersmith station. From there the Piccadilly Line directly to Heathrow. From the east we found this by far the most convenient with a single easy change after Liverpool Street, although still plenty of stairs in Liverpool Street station. 

As an aside if you have to go out of your way to catch the express trains to Heathrow I can't see the point. In fact you have to be really pressed for time to wish to pay much more to save 30 minutes.


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## JontyMort

Deni said:


> I think the shorter travel time argument is still there, and still about 15 minutes difference. But I could see the express losing riders when you are able to take a one-seat ride on the Elizabeth from stations east of Paddington. And they'll eventually have more frequencies as well.


If ever there was a destination prompting the old gag “I wouldn’t start from here” it‘s Heathrow. I would guess Heathrow Express will still get use in conjunction with taxis to/from Paddington. But, as you say, for anyone already on the Elizabeth Line from the east, the journey time saving on HX will be eaten up by changing trains - not to mention the hassle of lugging your kit around Paddington.
Paddington is my London terminus (120 miles away, admittedly), so I’m looking forward to trying out the new line.


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## greatwestern

JontyMort said:


> If ever there was a destination prompting the old gag “I wouldn’t start from here” it‘s Heathrow. I would guess Heathrow Express will still get use in conjunction with taxis to/from Paddington. But, as you say, for anyone already on the Elizabeth Line from the east, the journey time saving on HX will be eaten up by changing trains - not to mention the hassle of lugging your kit around Paddington.
> Paddington is my London terminus (120 miles away, admittedly), so I’m looking forward to trying out the new line.


Paddington is also my London Terminus (also 120 miles away !!), but my route (and cheapest) up until now has been to take the train from Bristol to Reading, change to a local service to Hayes & Harlington then catch the bus directly outside the station to Heathrow (15 minute bus ride).


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## v v

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh yes, please, Jamie! I’d love to see the photos and hear what you thought of it.
> 
> I saw a lovely video clip of the Queen visiting and being shown how to use an Oyster card. She looked healthier and more energetic than she has for a while (proving that trains are good for everyone?).
> 
> Andy Byford, Commissioner of Transport for London (the person some of us would have liked to run Amtrak), was also shown briefly, but the clip didn’t say if he got to say hello to the Queen or help her with her Oyster card.



Here you are Patty, the only photo that was close to giving an impression of the new train interiors. You'll notice that the cars are all open to each other, not sure if this is unique to London or is common around the world, the technicalitites of train travel pass me by. It enables you to walk through the train as though it were one car, they have minimised the amount of moving floor on bends.

The colour scheme is Lilac inside and out, although ouitside it is very muted.

At last we have a connection with the Queen, we all got our first Oyster cards on the same day, the only difference is we paid for ours.

Hope you are slowly building up to taking longer rail journeys, we'd hate to miss you later in the year.


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## JontyMort

v v said:


> Here you are Patty, the only photo that was close to giving an impression of the new train interiors. You'll notice that the cars are all open to each other, not sure if this is unique to London or is common around the world, the technicalitites of train travel pass me by. It enables you to walk through the train as though it were one car, they have minimised the amount of moving floor on bends.
> 
> The colour scheme is Lilac inside and out, although ouitside it is very muted.
> 
> At last we have a connection with the Queen, we all got our first Oyster cards on the same day, the only difference is we paid for ours.
> 
> Hope you are slowly building up to taking longer rail journeys, we'd hate to miss you later in the year.
> 
> View attachment 28473


The open full-width gangways are similar to those in the (excellent) S-stock on the sub-surface lines. In effect it makes the train into one long car. As well as smoothing out the loading it makes them seem much less claustrophobic. Many tram systems - Manchester springs to mind - operate on a similar principle.


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## Mystic River Dragon

v v said:


> Here you are Patty, the only photo that was close to giving an impression of the new train interiors. You'll notice that the cars are all open to each other, not sure if this is unique to London or is common around the world, the technicalitites of train travel pass me by. It enables you to walk through the train as though it were one car, they have minimised the amount of moving floor on bends.
> 
> The colour scheme is Lilac inside and out, although ouitside it is very muted.
> 
> At last we have a connection with the Queen, we all got our first Oyster cards on the same day, the only difference is we paid for ours.
> 
> Hope you are slowly building up to taking longer rail journeys, we'd hate to miss you later in the year.
> 
> View attachment 28473



Thank you, Jamie!

I think it’s lovely (maybe because lilac is one of my favorite colors), and it makes a lot of sense to have the entranceways open between cars instead of having to deal with heavy doors (or any doors if carrying coffee or tea). 

That’s nice that you got your Oyster cards the same day as the Queen. Who knows, maybe she’ll put on a casual outfit and sneak out of the palace and take a joy ride with her Oyster card!

Yes, I am feeling much better about traveling now. I just came back from a few days in Mystic, Connecticut. This week I will get my second booster, then I should be fine for my first big trip in four weeks—Alexandria, Virginia, to Chicago and back—with a good friend.

I am looking forward to seeing you and Rosie later in the year—just let me know when you have your plans finalized for the east coast.


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## v v

Not sure if this will work but just found this mp4 on the phone. There are other photos too but haven't come across them yet.

View attachment 392.mp4


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## v v

And there's more...


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## cirdan

Depending on your destination, one way to avoid lugging your bags up and down too many steps is to avoid changing tube lines in central London and instead change at one of the suburban tube stations . The district line and Piccadilly line run parallel for a long stretch and at many of the joint stations you can change trains simply by walking across the platform .


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## v v

Mystic River Dragon said:


> I am looking forward to seeing you and Rosie later in the year



We're looking forward to meeting you too. 

We'll have firm plans made for the east coast within the next 2 months assuming the weather is as normal for November and we get our US visa, if the weather is bad we'll just have to all speed south and have lunch in Miami or somewhere, have you ever travelled in a camper?

Meant to add about riding the Elizabeth trains that for a commuter train they are pretty comfortable and seating type is varied throughout each car.

It's possible that over time the name will become shortened; Elizabeth Line = EL = The L 
Now where have I heard of that before?


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## jis

Huge new railway line opens deep beneath London — CNN


Crowds of rail enthusiasts, commuters and excited locals turn out to catch the first of the new trains of the Elizabeth line, the biggest shake up to London's travel network in 70 years.




apple.news


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## Deni

Geoff Marshall has his opening day video up.


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## jis

Here is another nice video


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## Metra Electric Rider

Geoff was really enthusiastic about the Purple Train, Purple Tra-aaaiiiinnnn.....

(in fact all of London's train videographers were all atwitter and agog yesterday)

But of course (in my best Maurice Chevalier/Jacques Clouseau accent) we have had zee Crossrail for feefty years in France. And we are building see souper-douper RER under Paris, mon ami!


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## Devil's Advocate

cirdan said:


> Depending on your destination, one way to avoid lugging your bags up and down too many steps is to avoid changing tube lines in central London and instead change at one of the suburban tube stations . The district line and Piccadilly line run parallel for a long stretch and at many of the joint stations you can change trains simply by walking across the platform .


It would be great if Google and Apple had a  _Carrying Luggage_ navigation option.



Deni said:


> Geoff Marshall has his opening day video up.





Metra Electric Rider said:


> Geoff was really enthusiastic about the Purple Train, Purple Tra-aaaiiiinnnn.....


Geoff Marshall has the most unintentionally distracting on-screen persona I have ever seen. 

When it comes to London trains Jago Hazzard's train-focused visuals and dry snark is more my style.


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## Metra Electric Rider

Devil's Advocate said:


> When it comes to London trains Jago Hazzard's train-focused visuals and dry snark is more my style.



Yes, agreed! Jago is as nearly daily viewing as possible for me. 

Also, the Tim Traveller (another fave, albeit more far flung adventures, but also many tube and train videos - with Geoff M cameo's and vice versa).


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## johanpdx

We needed to get to Heathrow yesterday in time for a transatlantic departure at 9:55 a.m. The very first westbound Elizabeth Line train to Paddington (we boarded at Liverpool Street Station) was part of our plan, with a change at Paddington to a Heathrow-bound train. We made it onto the Elizabeth Line train at 6:47 a.m. with about 30 seconds to spare.


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## cirdan

Willbridge said:


> I thought the Queen looked like she was enjoying it.


I think the Queen generally enjoys rail-type events, and has opened quite a few projects over the years.


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## cirdan

The Elizabeth line is at its core the realization of a dream that goes back maybe 170 years or so.

If you look at the present day Paddington station, the tracks are some way below the outside surface, which is why the roadside accessway is a long downward ramp. This can of course be explained by the general topography of the area as further west, the Great Western main line is on surface and then even on a long viaduct in the Brent Valley. But urban legend has it that when Brunel designed the station he considered it only a temporary terminus and intended for the tracks to continue further into central London at some point in the future.

It would of course be impossible to build a straight line connection there today as the Circle and District line is in the way and of course the tunnel would be extremely shallow and thus interfere with the foundations of many buildings.

In the 1860s the first part of the Metropolitan Railway was built from Paddington to Moorgate, which was the the first part of what later became the London Underground. In the early days the line was intended as an eastward extension of the Great Western, and broad gauge trains ran on it, with some of them running thru from the Great Western. Later the Metropolitan and the Great Western fell out and the level of cooperation was much reduced. But freight continued to run here for many years afterwards and did not finally finish until the 1960s. An underground spur line, the remains of which can still be seen today if you know where to look, served various markets and a I believe an abattoir in the Moorgate area.

Later attempts by the Great Western to reinstate passenger thru running were blocked by there being insufficient capacity on the Metropolitan. Only the Great Western's Hammersmith branch had a thru service which was electrified and later fully integrated in the London Underground.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

To add to @cirdan's discussion above, there was a fair amount of through running between the Underground subsurface lines and the main line railways, for example trains that started out on the District Line and ran to the seaside resort town of Southend on Sea using the London Tilbury and Southend, pulled by District Line electric locomotives to Barking where the motive power was switched to steam. This had all ended by 1961 when the LT&S was electrified (AC overhead) and connections to the Underground were severed.


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## cirdan

I think even today there are places where the District Line runs thru on mainline tracks. I think to Wimbledon but I'm not sure. The Bakerloo line also ran out onto the mainline at one time I think. At one time some of the Bakerloo fleet were actually owned by the LNER.


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## Willbridge

cirdan said:


> The Elizabeth line is at its core the realization of a dream that goes back maybe 170 years or so.
> 
> If you look at the present day Paddington station, the tracks are some way below the outside surface, which is why the roadside accessway is a long downward ramp. This can of course be explained by the general topography of the area as further west, the Great Western main line is on surface and then even on a long viaduct in the Brent Valley. But urban legend has it that when Brunel designed the station he considered it only a temporary terminus and intended for the tracks to continue further into central London at some point in the future.
> 
> It would of course be impossible to build a straight line connection there today as the Circle and District line is in the way and of course the tunnel would be extremely shallow and thus interfere with the foundations of many buildings.
> 
> In the 1860s the first part of the Metropolitan Railway was built from Paddington to Moorgate, which was the the first part of what later became the London Underground. In the early days the line was intended as an eastward extension of the Great Western, and broad gauge trains ran on it, with some of them running thru from the Great Western. Later the Metropolitan and the Great Western fell out and the level of cooperation was much reduced. But freight continued to run here for many years afterwards and did not finally finish until the 1960s. An underground spur line, the remains of which can still be seen today if you know where to look, served various markets and a I believe an abattoir in the Moorgate area.
> 
> Later attempts by the Great Western to reinstate passenger thru running were blocked by there being insufficient capacity on the Metropolitan. Only the Great Western's Hammersmith branch had a thru service which was electrified and later fully integrated in the London Underground.


I wrote a paper on this with the Underground commemoration of its centennial in Modern European History. (L&C College had a prof who was big on technical history, which in the 1960's was still considered to be sort of radical.) I described the through operations and advanced the idea that _the Underground was forced by the traffic demand to invent features of rapid transit,_ including clock headways, that worked against the variable nature of intercity rail operations.

Several years later I was in London and it was interesting to see the different profiles of the "underground" lines. And then in 1971 I found myself on the French military train out of Berlin-Tegel. It was a 50-minute ride to Berlin-Wannsee because the first segment was on the S-Bahn, including single-track segments and signals to keep us waiting for commuters. It functioned, but I imagine that was what a cross-London through car or train service was like.


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## Brian Battuello

Amazing stuff. Going to Blighty in August, will have to check it out. 

Anyone up for a quick round of Mornington Crescent?


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## jamesontheroad

jis said:


> I think it is Heathrow Connect that went to TfL Heathrow Express remains separate with high fare. I see Heathrow Express still costs GBP 25 or GBP 32 one way depending on the class of travel.



Yes, as others have noted, Heathrow Express remains as the expensive but fast option from Heathrow. Both the Heathrow Express and the Elizabeth Line (formerly TFL Rail, formerly Heathrow Connect) trains depart from the same platforms at the Heathrow railway stations. There are loud, persistent and extremely annoying announcements to make sure you catch the right train.



cirdan said:


> Is there any advantage in opting for the higher fare, now that the argument of a shorter travel time is no more?





jis said:


> Someone other than me will have to give a balanced view on that. The only reason I ever rode Heathrow Express once or twice was for the novelty of it. Generally I continued to take the Piccadilly Line in from Heathrow since it dropped me almost by the front doorsteps of the hotels that I typically use when in London.



Heathrow Express (jointly operated by GWR and Heathrow Airport Holdings) is still faster from Heathrow to Paddington, but the commercial proposition of the service is definitely weakened. We will see how it survives with the "new" competition of the cheaper but more extensively connected Elizabeth Line. 



greatwestern said:


> The Paddington "Heathrow Connect" service now under the banner of Tfl rail costs £11.60 (27 - 37 minute journey time, frequency 4 per hour) compared to Heathrow Express £25 (15 - 21 minute journey time, frequency 4 per hour).
> 
> The tube fare is £5.50 peak times, £3.50 off peak with a journey time (from Paddington involving changing tube lines) of between 55 and 60 minutes.



It would be helpful if Heathrow Airport listed the options to arriving passengers as clearly as you have here. At least there is choice... but it is confusing and depends a lot on your final destination.



greatwestern said:


> Paddington is also my London Terminus (also 120 miles away !!), but my route (and cheapest) up until now has been to take the train from Bristol to Reading, change to a local service to Hayes & Harlington then catch the bus directly outside the station to Heathrow (15 minute bus ride).



*Hayes & Harlington is also an extremely useful splitting point for "split ticket" journeys to/from Heathrow using the Elizabeth Line.*

In the last few months I've regularly arrived at Heathrow and needed to get to Cambridge. There are cheap "Advance" fares involving an underground train to King's Cross and then a specific departure from there to Cambridge, but these are risky given the flight could be delayed and the queues at LHR border control are often very long.

An Anytime Single (buy anytime use anytime) from Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3 (same for the other terminals) to Cambridge [CBG] is £52.50. But two separate tickets, split at Hayes & Harlington are cheaper. 

Anytime Single Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3 to Hayes & Harlington £6.80
Anytime Single Hayes & Harlington to Cambridge £29.80

= £36.60.

You can buy these in advance from any train company and collect them from the Heathrow Express ticket machines in the Arrivals halls or the ticket machines in the railway stations themselves.



Brian Battuello said:


> Amazing stuff. Going to Blighty in August, will have to check it out.



If you are lucky, your trip might coincide with the next phase of opening, which at the moment is simply penned in for "autumn 2022". At that point, the Shenfield - Liverpool Street and Paddington - Heathrow / Reading sections will join the main core through the centre of London.


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## caravanman

In the 1970's, I worked for British Rail and I noticed a few of the diesel locomotives at our East London Stratford depot had an extra "stop ****" attached to a brake tube fitted just above the rail level.
I was told these locos were so fitted to allow them to run over the "above ground" Central Line sections out towards Epping. 
(The underground had a mechanical lever at each signal, which raised when the signal was red, and would physically knock the train brake pipe stop cocks open to halt it if a train passed at red...)
I was told it was an arrangement to facilitate track working on the central line at night, but possibly before my time on the railway, as I never knew of this happening in my time there.


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## JontyMort

jamesontheroad said:


> In the last few months I've regularly arrived at Heathrow and needed to get to Cambridge. There are cheap "Advance" fares involving an underground train to King's Cross and then a specific departure from there to Cambridge, but these are risky given the flight could be delayed and the queues at LHR border control are often very long.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> If you are lucky, your trip might coincide with the next phase of opening, which at the moment is simply penned in for "autumn 2022". At that point, the Shenfield - Liverpool Street and Paddington - Heathrow / Reading sections will join the main core through the centre of London.


Just a thought, but at that point your Heathrow-Cambridge run *may* well be best achieved by a combination of Elizabeth Line from Heathrow to Farringdon, changing to Thameslink from Farringdon to Cambridge. Not sure about the fares, though. The Thameslink improvements - through running to the ex-Great Northern route as well as the ex-Midland route via the grade-separated (underground) junction at St Pancras Low Level - haven’t had as much fanfare as the Elizabeth Line, but are useful.

With all these underground lines in New York, London, Paris, and other cities, it’s a miracle there is any room for foundations for new buildings. One of the engineering challenges for the new line was indeed threading it through the existing infrastructure.


----------



## caravanman

At the risk of "over egging the pudding", I found this item about freight trains on the Underground. It is astonishing how much niche knowledge is out there, if one can track it down. (Possibly, for the sake of sanity, one should not try to go down too many rabbit holes in the thirst for knowledge...  )

https://www.lurs.org.uk/02 jan 17 FREIGHT ON THE UNDERGROUND.pdf


----------



## JontyMort

cirdan said:


> I think even today there are places where the District Line runs thru on mainline tracks. I think to Wimbledon but I'm not sure. The Bakerloo line also ran out onto the mainline at one time I think. At one time some of the Bakerloo fleet were actually owned by the LNER.


Yes, south of East Putney, the Wimbledon branch of the District runs on ex-LSWR metals, and the line is still available for main line stock as an alternative route to Clapham Junction via the spur just north of East Putney. Until quite recently - OK, when I was living in Wimbledon 40 years ago - the signage was main-line rather than LT roundel-style. The Richmond branch is/was similar from (?) Gunnersbury southwards.

The Bakerloo north of Queens Park runs on the “Watford New Line” put in by the LNWR in 1912 - also known as the Watford DC line, it was electrified from (almost) the start. The Bakerloo was extended from Paddington and Edgware Road to the surface at Queens Park in 1915, using the Watford DC line northwards - originally all the way to Watford Junction, but these days only as far as Harrow & Wealdstone.

The technique of grafting extensions of the Underground on to existing surface lines was used in several other instances. The (former) eastern arm of the Bakerloo was tunnelled from Baker Street to the surface at Finchley Road, enabling the Bakerloo to take over the slow tracks of the ex-Metropolitan’s four-track main line between there and Wembley Park,** plus the Met’s Stanmore branch. This became part of the Jubilee Line when that was extended south from Baker Street in the 1970s.

** For connoisseurs of quadruple-track operation, this section has an interesting and efficient layout - slows in the middle (using a single island platform at intermediate stations), fast tracks on the outside of the formation (no platforms at the intermediate stations), and twin islands for interchange at Wembley Park and Finchley Road.

The High Barnet branch of the Northern Line was a similar effort, with an extension coming to the surface at East Finchley, then taking over the ex-Great Northern branch line. Much more proposed extensive work in that area was interrupted in 1939, and never resumed after 1945. Some of the stations - notably High Barnet itself - retain very obviously 1870s Great Northern architecture.

Finally, the Central Line took over (or ran alongside) the Great Western out to West Ruislip in the late 1930s, and the eastern extension into the countryside at Epping (and originally Ongar) took over ex-LNER branches. This eastern part wasn’t quite finished on the outbreak of the war, and in fact some the tunnels were fitted out as aircraft factories etc, finally opening as the Central Line in 1946.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

JontyMort said:


> With all these underground lines in New York, London, Paris, and other cities, it’s a miracle there is any room for foundations for new buildings. One of the engineering challenges for the new line was indeed threading it through the existing infrastructure.



Most of them, especially early subways, up to the deep level tube (I'm talking primarily about London, but it also is true for Paris and NY) were always under streets to avoid paying right of way (not sure that's the correct term) charges to property owners - hence the frequent tight curves and stations with platforms one above each other. Interestingly enough there are plenty of tunnels in the UK under towns on mainline RR's - some have collapsed under time and others are majorly reinforced to prevent collapse (and some have been rendered useless by adjacent construction). There are some pictures of the Stockholm subway in the suburbs where it runs on the surface but had to tunnel through a hill - it's a surprisingly thin amount of rock above the tunnel and there is a good sized apartment building perched above it (of course, it's granite and quite hard). 

If they are deep enough or through bedrock it's not an issue - however, adding new lines and enlarging stations is complex when they need to meet up - there are videos about building new stations in London where they had inches of clearance and lots of monitors to ensure there was no movement. 



JontyMort said:


> ** For connoisseurs of quadruple-track operation, this section has an interesting and efficient layout - slows in the middle (using a single island platform at intermediate stations), fast tracks on the outside of the formation (no platforms at the intermediate stations), and twin islands for interchange at Wembley Park and Finchley Road.



Just like Metra Electric (haha)! That's a fun stretch to ride - many years of construction leading to the four track stretch with lots of Victorian engineering, both in use and abandoned especially as you get into Central London.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Geoff Marshall is uploading like a video a day on each station with "special guests" - the "very special guest stars" being other transit oriented YouTubers! 

Here's his latest- TRC:


----------



## cirdan

JontyMort said:


> With all these underground lines in New York, London, Paris, and other cities, it’s a miracle there is any room for foundations for new buildings. One of the engineering challenges for the new line was indeed threading it through the existing infrastructure.


True that.

And it's not just the underground lines but there is a lot of other buried stuff as well, including sewers, storm relief channels, tunnels carrying power cables, WW2 bomb shelters, basements of buildings, archaeological sites and even the former post office railway. Fortunately most of that is pretty well documented, but any major construction project will undoubtedly run into some surprise or other.


----------



## cirdan

There was an incident in 2013 when construction workers were making pilings for a new building, when one of the piles breached a railroad tunnel below. Fortunately a train engineer noticed water pouring in through the tunnel roof and sounded the alarm, and so a potentially terrible accident on a busy rail line could be averted.

The cause was apparently that the construction company was using a map that showed the tunnel in an incorrect location.









Piling firm All Foundations pierced London rail tunnel


HSE investigates events on small resi site that led to augur breaking through busy tunnel




www.constructionenquirer.com


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

cirdan said:


> I think even today there are places where the District Line runs thru on mainline tracks. I think to Wimbledon but I'm not sure.


Wimbledon to Putney Bridge and the Richmond Branch as far as Gunnersbury.
The Metropolitan Line shares tracks with the National Rail Chiltern Line service to Marylebone between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park. The Chiltern trains are Diesel powered and also have their own tracks South of Harrow which are unelectrified.


----------



## Deni

There is a very cool special issue about Crossrail by Modern Railways magazine. It's a British publication but you could find it in the U.S. if you have a specialty magazine shop in your area. I found it at a place in Chicago called City Newsstand. Great stuff in here, goes into the history of previous proposals, the technology, the trainsets, station profiles, interviews with several people involved in the construction and operations, etc.


----------



## jis

Deni said:


> There is a very cool special issue about Crossrail by Modern Railways magazine. It's a British publication but you could find it in the U.S. if you have a specialty magazine shop in your area. I found it at a place in Chicago called City Newsstand. Great stuff in here, goes into the history of previous proposals, the technology, the trainsets, station profiles, interviews with several people involved in the construction and operations, etc.
> 
> View attachment 28571


In general you can order any Modern Railway publication over the internet at 









Key Publishing Shop: Aviation and Transport Specialists


Explore to the Key Shop. Your online destination for aviation and transport magazine subscriptions, books, specials, event tickets and more. Free UK delivery on eligible orders.




shop.keypublishing.com





However, unfortunately, this particular item is currently sold out. It can be found under Bookazines->Transport


----------



## John Bredin

cirdan said:


> There was an incident in 2013 when construction workers were making pilings for a new building, when one of the piles breached a railroad tunnel below. Fortunately a train engineer noticed water pouring in through the tunnel roof and sounded the alarm, and so a potentially terrible accident on a busy rail line could be averted.
> 
> The cause was apparently that the construction company was using a map that showed the tunnel in an incorrect location.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Piling firm All Foundations pierced London rail tunnel
> 
> 
> HSE investigates events on small resi site that led to augur breaking through busy tunnel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.constructionenquirer.com


Sounds a bit like the Great Chicago Flood, where contractors driving piles to protect one of the Chicago River bridges punched through to one of the old freight tunnels, which were connected to the subbasements of a _lot_ of older Loop buildings to (in previous decades) deliver coal and merchandise and take away ashes. I don't recall off the top of my head how badly the State and Dearborn subways (now Red and Blue Lines) flooded.


----------



## JontyMort

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Wimbledon to Putney Bridge and the Richmond Branch as far as Gunnersbury.
> The Metropolitan Line shares tracks with the National Rail Chiltern Line service to Marylebone between Harrow on the Hill and Moor Park. The Chiltern trains are Diesel powered and also have their own tracks South of Harrow which are unelectrified.


Yes, but in the Metropolitan/Chiltern case it’s not so much Underground on mainline tracks as the other way round. The Met had got its main line out from Baker Street as far as Aylesbury and indeed Quainton Road (over 40 miles from Baker Street) before the Great Central arrived from the north in 1899, and the GC’s original access to Marylebone was by running powers over the Met (and later the line became joint). Sir Edward Watkin had a finger in both companies, so it wasnt a total surprise. The Metropolitan section was not suited for high speed running, for various reasons, and the GC later (1906/1910) partnered the Great Western in a joint line which gave the GC an alternative route, and the GW a significantly shorter route to Birmingham. The current Chitern Mainline splices the GC’s access from London to this joint line on to the GW’s extension off the joint line to Banbury and Birmingham.


----------



## west point

What loading gauge clearances does the line have?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> What loading gauge clearances does the line have?


One of the various British main line loading gauges I would presume since AFAIK Class 345s have standard main line static height and width and the line is electrified 25kV 50Hz OHE. They are not C1 since the cars are longer than C1 cars, but I am not sure whether they would fall under C3 or something else.

Here are the actual numbers for the Class 345


----------



## JontyMort

west point said:


> What loading gauge clearances does the line have?


It’s standard GB loading gauge - if there is such a thing. But in particular the trains run on main lines west of Paddington and east of Liverpool Street. Furthermore, the line is electrified at 25kV overhead, and I think they have emergency evacuation walkways throughout - so the tunnels are huge in comparison with, say, deep-level tubes.

As you probably know, loading gauge in Britain is very restrictive by North American or mainland European standards. The French managed to get double-deck trains on the RER, something which would never work in Britain.


----------



## jis

JontyMort said:


> It’s standard GB loading gauge - if there is such a thing. But in particular the trains run on main lines west of Paddington and east of Liverpool Street. Furthermore, the line is electrified at 25kV overhead, and I think they have emergency evacuation walkways throughout - so the tunnels are huge in comparison with, say, deep-level tubes.
> 
> As you probably know, loading gauge in Britain is very restrictive by North American or mainland European standards. The French managed to get double-deck trains on the RER, something which would never work in Britain.


That is because the French built their RER lines to UIC standard loading gauge, which of course allows double deckers to run all over Europe.


----------



## JontyMort

jis said:


> That is because the French built their RER lines to UIC standard loading gauge, which of course allows double deckers to run all over Europe.


Indeed, the point being that double-deckers have never been viable in Britain, because of the restricted loading gauge. Every so often, some politician or other here gets the bright idea of doing some gauge clearance to permit double-deck working. The idea rarely survives first contact with the reality of price.


----------



## jis

JontyMort said:


> Indeed, the point being that double-deckers have never been viable in Britain, because of the restricted loading gauge. Every so often, some politician or other here gets the bright idea of doing some gauge clearance to permit double-deck working. The idea rarely survives first contact with the reality of price.


I suppose they could at least theoretically run on HS-1?

But yes, they could certainly not run anywhere in the TfL area without enormous capital layout.


----------



## JontyMort

jis said:


> I suppose they could at least theoretically run on HS-1?
> 
> But yes, they could certainly not run anywhere in the TfL area without enormous capital layout.


Yes, HS-1 is GB+ - and the Channel Tunnel itself is even bigger.** The constraint on running duplex TGVs from Paris to London is the Tunnel safety regime.

** It will be recalled that a helicopter can easily fly through .


----------



## Devil's Advocate

JontyMort said:


> Yes, HS-1 is GB+ - and the Channel Tunnel itself is even bigger.** The constraint on running duplex TGVs from Paris to London is the Tunnel safety regime.


Looks like gauge and signaling would work but fire suppression and emergency disembarkation would not pass?



JontyMort said:


> ** It will be recalled that a helicopter can easily fly through


Nothing in those movies ever made any sense to me. Might as well name them _Comprehension Impossible_.


----------



## JontyMort

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Second Avenue subway or East Side Access might be slightly better comparisons.
> 
> Interestingly, London doesn't seem to get extensions to the existing lines but entirely new lines now that I think about it.


Funnily enough, London *has* recently had an extension. The Northern Line (Charing Cross branch) was extended last year from Stockwell to Battersea Power Station (redeveloped for residential use) with an intermediate station at Nine Elms, this being the closest station to the new US embassy.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

JontyMort said:


> Funnily enough, London *has* recently had an extension. The Northern Line (Charing Cross branch) was extended last year from Stockwell to Battersea Power Station (redeveloped for residential use) with an intermediate station at Nine Elms, this being the closest station to the new US embassy.


Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that - it's even a new branch line, isn't it?


----------



## JontyMort

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that - it's even a new branch line, isn't it?


It’s more of an extension of the Charing Cross branch than a stand-alone branch. Kennington has full grade-separation with four platforms - one platform for each branch (Charing Cross/Bank) in each direction - and cross-platform interchange (i.e. the physical junction between the two branches is south of the station). In addition there is a single-track loop allowing southbound trains from the Charing Cross branch to terminate and run round into the northbound Charing Cross branch platform. The extension to Battersea is formed with a westbound facing junction out of this loop, and an eastbound trailing junction into it, meaning that trains to/from Battersea can run only from/to the Charing Cross branch - it will be necessary to change trains to/from the Bank branch.
The loop at Kennington has also been made bi-directional, allowing a shuttle service to be run on the new branch.


----------



## jis

There is also an extension of the Bakerloo Line beyond Elephant and Castle in the works.


----------



## Deni

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Second Avenue subway or East Side Access might be slightly better comparisons.
> 
> Interestingly, London doesn't seem to get extensions to the existing lines but entirely new lines now that I think about it.


Northern Line extended by two stops last year.

Bakerloo extension should be the next project they start. "Should" be.


----------



## Deni

JontyMort said:


> It’s more of an extension of the Charing Cross branch than a stand-alone branch. Kennington has full grade-separation with four platforms - one platform for each branch (Charing Cross/Bank) in each direction - and cross-platform interchange (i.e. the physical junction between the two branches is south of the station). In addition there is a single-track loop allowing southbound trains from the Charing Cross branch to terminate and run round into the northbound Charing Cross branch platform. The extension to Battersea is formed with a westbound facing junction out of this loop, and an eastbound trailing junction into it, meaning that trains to/from Battersea can run only from/to the Charing Cross branch - it will be necessary to change trains to/from the Bank branch.
> The loop at Kennington has also been made bi-directional, allowing a shuttle service to be run on the new branch.


I've heard some people are wondering if the Northern Line may eventually rebrand as separate lines.


----------



## JontyMort

jis said:


> There is also an extension of the Bakerloo Line beyond Elephant and Castle in the works.


The preferred route is safeguarded, but the money isn’t. They’re saying 2030s.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

JontyMort said:


> The preferred route is safeguarded, but the money isn’t. They’re saying 2030s.


Bakerloo also needs new trains. The line has the oldest on the Underground (1972). That would probably take priority over an extension.


----------



## JontyMort

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Bakerloo also needs new trains. The line has the oldest on the Underground (1972). That would probably take priority over an extension.


Yes, you know you’re getting on a bit when the “new” stock is 50 years old. As a 13-year-old in 1970, coming in from the north-west on the Met and cross-platform interchange to a 1938 Bakerloo train at Finchley Road to get to the bright lights seemed the height of sophistication.


----------



## cirdan

JontyMort said:


> Yes, you know you’re getting on a bit when the “new” stock is 50 years old. As a 13-year-old in 1970, coming in from the north-west on the Met and cross-platform interchange to a 1938 Bakerloo train at Finchley Road to get to the bright lights seemed the height of sophistication.


When I was a kid in the 1970s and 1980s, the 1938 stock was still running and I used to love riding it whenever we visited London. The baritone roar of the motors and the drafts through open windows were quite impressive. Being a kid at the time, thinking this train type dated to 1938 made them seem ancient beyond all measure in my eyes. It is a sobering thought that today's "modern" trains are actually now older than the 1938 trains were back then.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

JontyMort said:


> Yes, you know you’re getting on a bit when the “new” stock is 50 years old. As a 13-year-old in 1970, coming in from the north-west on the Met and cross-platform interchange to a 1938 Bakerloo train at Finchley Road to get to the bright lights seemed the height of sophistication.


The East London Line before it was "Overgrounded" was a virtual rolling museum. I remember in 1971 seeing Q stock (I think) from the 1920's still running on that line. That trip I also got to ride the '38's as well as CO/CP stock on the District/Circle line, although the C stock were already making inroads there.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Wasn't the Isle of Wight running '38 Stock until they got some of the newer stock in the last couple years? By newer I mean post-WWII.


----------



## JontyMort

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Wasn't the Isle of Wight running '38 Stock until they got some of the newer stock in the last couple years? By newer I mean post-WWII.


Yes, the 1938 stock lasted until 2019. They‘re now using ex-District Line D78 stock, which is hardly in the first flush of youth (early 1980s), albeit completely refurbished.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

JontyMort said:


> Yes, the 1938 stock lasted until 2019. They‘re now using ex-District Line D78 stock, which is hardly in the first flush of youth (early 1980s), albeit completely refurbished.


Thanks, yes, definitely post-war!


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

JontyMort said:


> Yes, the 1938 stock lasted until 2019. They‘re now using ex-District Line D78 stock, which is hardly in the first flush of youth (early 1980s), albeit completely refurbished.



They look pretty nice. Sounds like they have AC traction now.

Island Line new stock video


----------



## mjt49

JontyMort said:


> Funnily enough, London *has* recently had an extension. The Northern Line (Charing Cross branch) was extended last year from Stockwell to Battersea Power Station (redeveloped for residential use) with an intermediate station at Nine Elms, this being the closest station to the new US embassy.


You mean Kennington to Battersea Power Station.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

mjt49 said:


> You mean Kennington to Battersea Power Station.


Or Battersea Power Station Station.... yuk yuk yuk


----------



## cirdan

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> The East London Line before it was "Overgrounded" was a virtual rolling museum. I remember in 1971 seeing Q stock (I think) from the 1920's still running on that line. That trip I also got to ride the '38's as well as CO/CP stock on the District/Circle line, although the C stock were already making inroads there.



Yes, the East London line always was a special place.

It also ran tube trains (as in small clearance) for a while. I can't remember which type though.

The line crosses the Thames using the original Brunel tunnel which was originally a pedestrian tunnel and only later converted for rail usage, and is AFAIK the oldest rail tunnel still in public use anywhere in the world. A real gem.


----------



## cirdan

JontyMort said:


> Yes, the 1938 stock lasted until 2019. They‘re now using ex-District Line D78 stock, which is hardly in the first flush of youth (early 1980s), albeit completely refurbished.



I believe the 1938 stock on the Isle of Wight were the oldest ex-London tube trains still in scheduled service anywhere at the time. The London Transport Museum has some older equipment still but it only rarely operates (it is based at the Acton depot, which is normally not accessible to the public but there are occasional open days, and they use them on occasional, but very rare tours on the underground network).

Now that the 1938 stock chapter has closed on the Isle of Wight, the rare distinction of operating the oldest tube trains has passed to another island railroad. Alderney in the Channel Islands, where two cars of 1959 stock are operated on a tourist line, pulled by a diesel engine.

Here is a youtube movie about that line


----------



## JontyMort

cirdan said:


> Yes, the East London line always was a special place.
> 
> It also ran tube trains (as in small clearance) for a while. I can't remember which type though.
> 
> The line crosses the Thames using the original Brunel tunnel which was originally a pedestrian tunnel and only later converted for rail usage, and is AFAIK the oldest rail tunnel still in public use anywhere in the world. A real gem.


Indeed. It was Marc Brunel - admittedly with assistance from young Isambard.


----------



## Trollopian

The Queen had a remarkable worth ethic and devotion to duty and I'm glad that she lived long enough to inaugurate the new line named in her honor. Here's video from May 2022 (click through to the _Guardian_ article;no paywall, but voluntary contributions welcome). Excerpt: "Kofi Duah, an Elizabeth line customer experience assistant, said he was 'thrilled' to present an Oyster card to the Queen and show her how it could be topped up on a machine. The Queen did not top up the card, which was preloaded with £5 of credit." I would pay much more than £5 for that card.

Apologies if it has been linked before; a quick search through this thread didn't reveal it.

Thank you, ma'am.

Queen makes surprise appearance at Elizabeth line opening ceremony


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Trollopian said:


> The Queen had a remarkable worth ethic and devotion to duty and I'm glad that she lived long enough to inaugurate the new line named in her honor. Here's video from May 2022 (click through to the _Guardian_ article;no paywall, but voluntary contributions welcome). Excerpt: "Kofi Duah, an Elizabeth line customer experience assistant, said he was 'thrilled' to present an Oyster card to the Queen and show her how it could be topped up on a machine. The Queen did not top up the card, which was preloaded with £5 of credit." I would pay much more than £5 for that card.
> 
> Apologies if it has been linked before; a quick search through this thread didn't reveal it.
> 
> Thank you, ma'am.
> 
> Queen makes surprise appearance at Elizabeth line opening ceremony



Passenger Train Journal (2022-3, issue 292, page 17) has a lovely picture of Andy Byford (Transport for London Commissioner) handing the Queen flowers that day.


----------



## JontyMort

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Passenger Train Journal (2022-3, issue 292, page 17) has a lovely picture of Andy Byford (Transport for London Commissioner) handing the Queen flowers that day.


I suspect the Queen was a transport geek at heart. She obviously loved the Royal Yacht but also seems to have enjoyed travelling by train. Until recently, her normal practice was to travel to Sandringham for the Christmas holidays by scheduled train from King’s Cross to King’s Lynn.


----------



## cirdan

JontyMort said:


> I suspect the Queen was a transport geek at heart. She obviously loved the Royal Yacht but also seems to have enjoyed travelling by train. Until recently, her normal practice was to travel to Sandringham for the Christmas holidays by scheduled train from King’s Cross to King’s Lynn.


absolutely. 

there was (and is) of course also the Royal Train, typically used for longer trips and more or less forming a self contained unit with catering and sleeping accomodation for the royals, staff and security.


----------



## JontyMort

Readers who have been following the staged opening may wish to know that through running from west of Paddington to the central section of the line starts on November 6. That should be of particular help to anyone arriving at Heathrow, allowing through access to the whole line via the low level platforms at Paddington (though a few trains will still terminate in the main line terminus). The same applies at Liverpool Street from the east.
Bond Street station has now opened - I took my first (admittedly short - Paddington to Bond Street) journey on the line on Monday, the opening day.


----------



## mjt49

JontyMort said:


> Readers who have been following the staged opening may wish to know that through running from west of Paddington to the central section of the line starts on November 6. That should be of particular help to anyone arriving at Heathrow, allowing through access to the whole line via the low level platforms at Paddington (though a few trains will still terminate in the main line terminus). The same applies at Liverpool Street from the east.
> Bond Street station has now opened - I took my first (admittedly short - Paddington to Bond Street) journey on the line on Monday, the opening day.


November 6 is a Sunday. It will be the first week of regular Sunday running through the central section.



JontyMort said:


> Indeed. It was Marc Brunel - admittedly with assistance from young Isambard.


I don't know if it was the oldest rail tunnel, but it was the first underwater tunnel in the world.


----------



## v v

JontyMort said:


> Readers who have been following the staged opening may wish to know that through running from west of Paddington to the central section of the line starts on November 6. That should be of particular help to anyone arriving at Heathrow, allowing through access to the whole line via the low level platforms at Paddington (though a few trains will still terminate in the main line terminus). The same applies at Liverpool Street from the east.
> Bond Street station has now opened - I took my first (admittedly short - Paddington to Bond Street) journey on the line on Monday, the opening day.



That's interesting Jonty as I was looking at the journey from Heathrow T3 to Essex just this morning. I believe Transport for London (TfL) have published a 'dated from' route map of the line showing it as a fully joined up route but with a few exceptions, it ties in with your comments.

As someone with a broad knowledge of UK rail do you know which station in the Heathrow T2/T3 complex the finalised Elizabeth line will run from as we will be returning from Egypt mid December and need to travel from Heathrow to the last but one EL station in the east, Brentwood.


----------



## JontyMort

v v said:


> That's interesting Jonty as I was looking at the journey from Heathrow T3 to Essex just this morning. I believe Transport for London (TfL) have published a 'dated from' route map of the line showing it as a fully joined up route but with a few exceptions, it ties in with your comments.
> 
> As someone with a broad knowledge of UK rail do you know which station in the Heathrow T2/T3 complex the finalised Elizabeth line will run from as we will be returning from Egypt mid December and need to travel from Heathrow to the last but one EL station in the east, Brentwood.


There’s actually a bona fide timetable on TfL’s website. Here’s 6 November to early December:


https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-november-2022.pdf


and 11 December onwards:


https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-december-2022.pdf



I think the later version is there merely because 11 December is the date of the national changeover to the winter timetable - i.e. it doesn’t represent a step change in the EL service.

The station at T2/T3 is the same as the Heathrow Express (but the Piccadilly Line is separate). One wonders if there is much point in HX once things bed down - more expensive to get you halfway there (admittedly slightly more quickly).

Coincidentally I am just passing Airport Junction as I type this.


----------



## v v

JontyMort said:


> There’s actually a bona fide timetable on TfL’s website. Here’s 6 November to early December:
> 
> 
> https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-november-2022.pdf
> 
> 
> and 11 December onwards:
> 
> 
> https://content.tfl.gov.uk/elizabeth-line-december-2022.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I think the later version is there merely because 11 December is the date of the national changeover to the winter timetable - i.e. it doesn’t represent a step change in the EL service.
> 
> The station at T2/T3 is the same as the Heathrow Express (but the Piccadilly Line is separate). One wonders if there is much point in HX once things bed down - more expensive to get you halfway there (admittedly slightly more quickly).
> 
> *Coincidentally I am just passing Airport Junction as I type this.*



Hope you're not driving!

Thanks for that. We always used the Piccadilly line as the most convenient in particular with bags, but a connected up Elizabeth Line would be heaven direct from Brentwood and the new equipment that comes with it is very comfortable to ride.


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## Metra Electric Rider

I will say, have to say, actually, that the ELine is fantastic - will be even better not having to change at Paddington too. Insanely smooth ride - and the new stations are spacious and fantastic.


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## Metra Electric Rider

So how is the Elizabeth Line faring with the dusting of snow? Hopefully it's not the "wrong" kind of snow that shuts the underground down...


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## v v

No idea how it's faring today but it is affected by the upcoming strikes. When it runs on the overground/mainline track it is only working through the middle of the day, not early or late due to signal staff not working. 

We were supposed to use it tomorrow (Tuesday) evening from Heathrow to Brentwood, Essex, but will now use Piccadilly Line, transfer Holborn to the Central Line out to Newbury Park tube station and a taxi from there to Brentwood.


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