# Battery-powered bus problems



## joelkfla (Oct 17, 2022)

This article is a year old, but I just now stumbled onto it:









SEPTA’s cracking battery buses raise questions about the future of electric transit


SEPTA was bullish on battery-powered electric buses. But $2.6 million and 25 broken buses later, the agency is rethinking its approach.




whyy.org


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 17, 2022)

Well written story.

1st generation equipment not ready for show time. The article points out the current technology and why there looking for new and different technologies.

Federal funds are not always beneficial. But you got to push the envelope somewhere, to get change.


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## west point (Oct 17, 2022)

Why the cover up of the problem? Could have prevented other agencies allow for delaying deliveries. FTA should sue.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 17, 2022)

> To critics like Martin Wright, a UK-based electric transportation advocate, those actions border on the absurd. He said the optimism around battery technology is unearned, driven more by enthusiasm for flashy technologies that promise solutions to environmental problems with no tradeoffs.



As someone who spent the last part of my career working in "technology assessment" of stuff to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from heavy-duty motor vehicles, I find the above quote to be right on the mark.


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## PVD (Oct 18, 2022)

It was reported on when it happened. Certainly, no secret. I'm not sure the issue was an electric bus problem as much as a "bus from a builder with no track record" NewFlyer and NovaBus are building electrics, but as part of the same lines of buses that are already proven with thousands of them in service.


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## jis (Oct 18, 2022)

PVD said:


> It was reported on when it happened. Certainly, no secret. I'm not sure the issue was an electric bus problem as much as a "bus from a builder with no track record" NewFlyer and NovaBus are building electrics, but as part of the same lines of buses that are already proven with thousands of them in service.


Indeed, NJT had the same problem with a set of diesel buses.


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## west point (Oct 18, 2022)

So what happened? Was a previous design that worked not engineered enough to acount for a weight distribution change. Or was a decision not to save 500 - 1000 maybe more pounds of structral steel to plan for increase the weight distribution and total weight of bus? Mayb a contract weight limit? 

All correspondance betwen builder and SEPTA would be informative.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 18, 2022)

west point said:


> All correspondence between builder and SEPTA would be informative.


What I got for the story it more about who pays for what, and if it’s a required repair or a non-issue.

The RV builders are especially good at this game too.


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## PVD (Oct 18, 2022)

I don't think it was an existing design, Proterra is a new bus builder. But their buses are built differently than previous designs. NYC leased 5 Proterras and ran them for a while and returned them. So far they haven't bought them. They also trialed some New Flyer electrics and have bought some. I believe they will be trialing the Nova battery models as well to evaluate before future purchase. Early NewLooks had floors that cracked, and early RTS overheated nd needed a redesign of the AC/Radiator setup. Both went on to long successful runs. Since Proterra passed Altoona, it may be more of a manufacturing problem than design. Time will tell.


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## Willbridge (Oct 18, 2022)

PVD said:


> I don't think it was an existing design, Proterra is a new bus builder. But their buses are built differently than previous designs. NYC leased 5 Proterras and ran them for a while and returned them. So far they haven't bought them. They also trialed some New Flyer electrics and have bought some. I believe they will be trialing the Nova battery models as well to evaluate before future purchase. Early NewLooks had floors that cracked, and early RTS overheated nd needed a redesign of the AC/Radiator setup. Both went on to long successful runs. Since Proterra passed Altoona, it may be more of a manufacturing problem than design. Time will tell.


One difference from the New Look early struggles is that they had GMC's resources to cure the problems. Portland's Inter-City Buses was ordered in 1959 by the PUC to buy five New Look suburbans for their "replacement" of the Portland Traction interurban service. They had serious problems. Urban operator Rose City Transit Co. waited till 1961 for their first New Looks and had no problems that came to public attention.

The Denver RTD Mall Shuttles are U.S. assembled Chinese battery buses. The only problem that has come to public attention is the usual story with batteries: inability to provide enough power for a sixteen or eighteen hour run. Their hybrid predecessors had a tendency to overheat and catch fire. All of this is a great advance compared to the lead acid batteries on a sub-fleet of the first Mall Shuttles by 1990. They only could stay in service for a bit over 90 minutes, confined to the AM, Lunch, and PM peaks.


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## Willbridge (Oct 19, 2022)

Here's one of the now-retired Denver hybrids:


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## railiner (Oct 19, 2022)

jis said:


> Indeed, NJT had the same problem with a set of diesel buses.


And the New York MTA...the notorious Grumman's with their cracked frames necessitating leasing buses from a bunch of other agencies. Not to mention similar, in some subway car's...


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Oct 26, 2022)

I read that Transport for London is going to be buying battery buses that use a pantograph for a fast (~10 minute) charge at each endpoint. I believe they are of a Spanish design. Will be interesting to see how this works out.


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## BCL (Oct 26, 2022)

I've ridden on Anaheim Resort Transportation with their new fleet of almost all BYD electrics. Not sure if they've had any issues since they're all pretty new. However, the area they cover is generally pretty flat.

As for hybrids, Yosemite National Park was using Gilligs with the Allison hybrid system since maybe 2004. Haven't been there in a while, they were working great for a long time.


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## PVD (Oct 26, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I read that Transport for London is going to be buying battery buses that use a pantograph for a fast (~10 minute) charge at each endpoint. I believe they are of a Spanish design. Will be interesting to see how this works out.


Both Nova and New Flyer have pantograph charging available. Unlike what we are accustomed to in rail, the arms are not on the bus, they descend down from the unit. The US buses tend to be charging support eqpt brand agnostic, not proprietary. I have used videos from bot Nova and NF in EV classes I've conducted.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 26, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I read that Transport for London is going to be buying battery buses that use a pantograph for a fast (~10 minute) charge at each endpoint. I believe they are of a Spanish design. Will be interesting to see how this works out.


About 10 years ago or so, I was at a conference where a speaker was touting a system where they used wireless induction charging to recharge the batteries at a route terminus. Not sure if the system (or the wireless technology in general) was ever deployed anywhere, but my new car has a place where I can do wireless recharging of my cellphone, if I have the right kind of cellphone, which I don't, alas.


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## GDRRiley (Oct 27, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> About 10 years ago or so, I was at a conference where a speaker was touting a system where they used wireless induction charging to recharge the batteries at a route terminus. Not sure if the system (or the wireless technology in general) was ever deployed anywhere, but my new car has a place where I can do wireless recharging of my cellphone, if I have the right kind of cellphone, which I don't, alas.


the issue with that style of charging is the energy loss


AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I read that Transport for London is going to be buying battery buses that use a pantograph for a fast (~10 minute) charge at each endpoint. I believe they are of a Spanish design. Will be interesting to see how this works out.


pantograph charging isn't new its been tested for years and places like LA already have fleets that use them. 
I'm not a fan of battery buses outside of the <45ft class they just need massive packs which weight a ton compared to hydrogen


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## BCL (Oct 27, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> About 10 years ago or so, I was at a conference where a speaker was touting a system where they used wireless induction charging to recharge the batteries at a route terminus. Not sure if the system (or the wireless technology in general) was ever deployed anywhere, but my new car has a place where I can do wireless recharging of my cellphone, if I have the right kind of cellphone, which I don't, alas.











Michigan finalizing plan to build first-ever wireless charging road for electric cars


A 1-mile stretch of road will be built somewhere in Detroit that will be able to charge electric vehicles without stopping.




www.fox2detroit.com


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## west point (Oct 27, 2022)

I have to wonder if the battery mass in one location causes problems with the EV bus frame. Then we can add in how many potholes does tke bus go into ? Someone remind us the number of potholes in various EV Bus cities and the rate of frame failures.


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## Trogdor (Oct 28, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> About 10 years ago or so, I was at a conference where a speaker was touting a system where they used wireless induction charging to recharge the batteries at a route terminus. Not sure if the system (or the wireless technology in general) was ever deployed anywhere, but my new car has a place where I can do wireless recharging of my cellphone, if I have the right kind of cellphone, which I don't, alas.



I thought that’s what Indianapolis uses for their BRT line.


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## BCL (Oct 28, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> I thought that’s what Indianapolis uses for their BRT line.



I can't find anything that states that they're anything but battery powered and plugged in to charge.

The typical thing would be to use overhead lines, but obviously that has limits although many now have small battery backups that might allow emergency use.

OK - I looked it up and it does seem kind of limited what they're doing. Ideally it would be buried in the road and not just at bus stops.









IndyGo plans to buy more electric buses from Red Line bus manufacturer


A stop on IndyGo's Red Line route at East 64th Street and North College Avenue ensures buses don't run out of power.




www.wrtv.com



IndyGo has been working with BYD to improve the charging situation with the Red Line buses for months.​​BYD is investing $4 million in new technology known as enroute inductive charging.​​The company set up power-charging zones embedded in the road in two or three locations. Two are along the route of the Red Line. To support the future Purple Line, another will be installed in Lawrence.​​In Indianapolis, one is installed at East 64th Street and College Avenue. The other on the south end of the Red Line on South Madison Avenue.​
Anaheim Resort Transportation has gone to all BYD electric. I think they're probably ideal since there's not going to be cold winters that screw up the range. At peak times, there can be a dozen of them at the Disneyland Main Transportation Center.


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