# A bleak map in VIA's Annual Report



## CHamilton (May 13, 2013)

National Dream Renewed on Facebook.







> Via Rail Outlook: No service west of Windsor or east of Quebec City. Check out the map at the bottom of page 32 of Via Rail's Annual Report for 2012. There is no caption: a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## xyzzy (May 13, 2013)

The adjoining text doesn't explicitly say that the Canadian, Ocean, and essential services will be cut. But it does imply that Via will need increasing operational subsidies to retain the non-corridor trains.


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## PRR 60 (May 13, 2013)

However, the map was within a section discussing corridor services, so maybe it is not as ominous as some see to think it is.


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## Bob Dylan (May 13, 2013)

If you haven't yet been on The Canadian or The Ocean I'd suggest you do it ASAP before they Disappear or become so Expensive and/or Privatized that only the Land Cruise Crowd can Afford to Ride them!! 

The Harper Government is Not a Friend of VIA!!! Sound Familiar? :help:


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## Nathanael (May 13, 2013)

When it comes to train service, Canada is the new Mexico. (I wish I'd ridden some Mexican trains before they were all axed.)

VIA is in the death spiral. It cuts services, resulting in lower revenues, lower ridership, and lower yields. But not significantly lower expenses, because most of the expenses are fixed costs. Rinse and repeat until there are no services.

You'll be lucky if you have any intercity trains by the time Harper leaves office. When is your next chance to get rid of Harper already?


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## NS VIA Fan (May 14, 2013)

VIA is certainly not in a “Death Spiral” and not the “next Mexico”. Last year they cut 1 round trip per week on the Canadian which has since been restored and 3 round trips per week on the Ocean. There was also a train cut between Niagara Falls and Toronto and between Sarnia and Toronto and some corridor adjustments but the “Core” Corridor where people are actually riding trains saw an increase in service.

GO Transit had added all-day bus service on the Niagara Falls route connecting to trains in Burlington and it was the passengers who abandoned the morning VIA train into Toronto and the evening return service for the almost hourly bus-train combination. Same thing happened when GO added service to Kitchener.

Perhaps it’s time that the Canadian is privatized…….at least the First Class portion with the Government still subsidizing coach for those that just have no other choice for transportation. A potential operator could be Rocky Mountaineer who has demonstrated they can run a well used “Land Cruise” type of service. As a taxpayer, why should I be subsidizing your railfan adventure on the Canadian?

Same for the Ocean..... Privatize it! The public long ago voted that they prefer flying or highway travel to rail. For example, today (a Tuesday) on the Ocean you have a capacity of about 250 persons from Halifax and Moncton to Montreal (with connections to Ottawa and Toronto). But flying today you have the following available:

Halifax – Toronto: 1,300 seats

Halifax – Montreal: 750 seats

Halifax – Ottawa: 650 seats

Moncton – Toronto: 450 seats

Moncton – Montreal: 200 seats

Moncton – Ottawa: 200 seats

That’s a total of nearly 3,550 seats today from the Maritimes to Central Canada vs: only 250 seats available on the Ocean (or nearly 25 thousand seats per week each way vs: only 750 available on the Ocean) and that doesn’t include flights from Bathurst and Mont Joli, the Bus or those that just hop in their car and drive the Trans Canada which is now mostly a 4-lane freeway.

Perhaps the Ocean should be cut back to Moncton in the off-season or operate coach only between Moncton and Halifax with “Land Cruise” sleepers running through only during the summer and holidays.

I’ve been on the Ocean a couple of times this past winter and the coaches seemed to be doing a pretty good business but there was almost no one in the sleepers until we reached Moncton and west. They're all on those flights out of YHZ.....2 hrs vs: 24 hrs!

Personally I don’t think the Canadian** or Ocean are going anywhere, anytime soon. They’ll probably be a privatized “Land Cruise” operation with the coach portion subsidized by the government

(**It's to much of an Icon.....what other country puts a train on their $10 Bill!!)


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## xyzzy (May 14, 2013)

The comparisons of airplane seats and train seats aren't really germane. I could make the same comparison about NY-Florida travel, except with an additional zero on the end of every number.

Via and Amtrak share a problem: what business are they really in, with respect to LD trains? Some would say essential transportation to small towns, even if the numbers are microscopic. Some would say land cruise, that might (or might not) be leveraged into incremental tourism dollars. Some would say that it's about getting people off the highways because the economics of widening and repairing roads have become unfavorable and the economics of thin-route airline service have also become unfavorable. The problem is, each of those business objectives has a different set of financial considerations and a different magnetism for public dollars.


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## jis (May 14, 2013)

What is missing in the VIA Maritime Service is the network effect that one finds on the Amtrak Atlantic Coast Service. It is not just the Star and Meteor, but it also involves the Carolinian, the Piedmonts, and peripherally even the Crescent and the Auto Train. That pulls in all sorts of connecting traffic that is completely absent in the VIA case. A more apt comparison would probably be the Sunset Limited, but even that has more network effect involving larger population centers than the VIA Maritime Service. Actually of the Amtrak LD network, overall the Atlantic Coast Service is the closest to breaking even, I believe to quite an extent due to two reasons. One is huge natural flows from huge population centers, and the other is network effect supporting that.


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## xyzzy (May 14, 2013)

The SCL operated pre-Amtrak Florida trains without losing tons of money, although they knew that eventually they would have to replace the car and locomotive fleet and there was no business rationale for SCL to finance the replacement. One factor in the ongoing success of Amtrak's Atlantic services, relatively speaking, is rapid population growth in Florida (almost 3X in the last 40 years) and North Carolina (almost 2X). As the saying goes, it's better to be lucky than good. Another factor is economy of scale such as multiple trains at most stations, etc. Another factor is the problems of I-95 (congestion, deterioration despite some improvements, etc).

Unfortunately none of these factors are in play in maritime Canada.


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## fairviewroad (May 14, 2013)

Amtrak's Florida service also doesn't have to take a significant detour due to a line drawn on a map.


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## TVRM610 (May 14, 2013)

If you ride the Canadian and then ride the Empire Builder you will see a vast difference in the people and how they are using the train.

The people riding the Canadian are in more of a "land cruise" mode, even if they are using it as transportation.

The people riding the Empire Builder are in more of a transportation mode.

Are either exclusive? no of course not... I did meet people on the Canadian that were taking the train purely for Transit.. and I've met people on Amtrak whose whole vacation was taking the train. But the overall vibe is pretty obvious to me.


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## Anderson (May 15, 2013)

The Atlantic Coast Service has also tended to be 3x daily (albeit over two routes). Even in a vacuum, that's a formula for inducing much more usage than 3x weekly service. If you throw in the Auto Train, you've got three options per day to get from DC-Orlando. Moreover, the fact is that Orlando is one of the biggest vacation destinations in America (I forget whether it's at #1 at the moment), southern FL is a big beach destination, and you've got a lot of non-driving snowbirds who come south for the winter on top of the "regular" vacation crowd, and a lot of them aren't up for _that_ much of a drive anymore.

The other thing about the ACS is that you've got a _massive_ amount of "network effect" to feed into it. In DC, you've got the Capitol Limited channeling in traffic from the Midwest, as well as the Cardinal (though I think the official connection may be via RVR) and the Crescent/Lynchburger. In Richmond, you've got the Hampton Roads trains. In Raleigh, you have the Carolinian and Piedmont services (the former also adding a parallel frequency RGH-NYP). In Philly, you've got the Keystone/Pennsylvanian. In New York, you have the Empire Service "and friends" going north, and the NE Regionals/Acelas/Shuttles/Vermonter going northeast.

Finally, there's sheer population and population density. The ACS has a lot of intermediate markets (intrastate within FL, as well as to/from the Carolinas). There's no real equivalent to that in Canada...once you get outside the Corridor, there's not a whole lot (you have Vancouver over two million; Calgary and Edmonton over a million; and Winnipeg at 730k. After that, it's pretty much Halifax (390k), Victoria (345k), and Saskatoon (260k) outside of Ontario/Quebec. This is not the stuff that packed trains are made of, and it's a _long_ road from getting your average person to spend a single night or day on a train and getting them to spend four nights crossing the distance between the ends of the route. Only Calgary/Edmonton/Vancouver form a set of even _theoretically_ workable markets...and there, for all I talk up the possibilities of overnight trains working, it's not like you've got an ideal track situation (or much of a legacy of Edmonton-Calgary service, though I _could_ see such a train selling).

To put the population issue another way, you can put the population of Saskatchewan in Fairfax County, and probably stuff Manitoba in before you get past Fredericksburg. Miami-Dade County is more populous than both put together...heck, you could put every Canadian living off the Corridor network into Florida (including the minority of those in Ontario and Quebec) and have room to spare.

NS VIA Fan: I know the cut was intended to be off-season. Was the Canadian rolled back to 3x daily year-round, or is this just the "summer restoration" you're referring to?.


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## NS VIA Fan (May 15, 2013)

Anderson said:


> NS VIA Fan: I know the cut was intended to be off-season. Was the Canadian rolled back to 3x daily year-round, or is this just the "summer restoration" you're referring to?.


 AFAIK....The Canadian is restored to 3/week for the summer/fall then will revert back to 2/week again for next winter. The Ocean remains at 3/week year ‘round.


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## DET63 (May 15, 2013)

> To put the population issue another way, you can put the population of Saskatchewan in Fairfax County, and probably stuff Manitoba in before you get past Fredericksburg. Miami-Dade County is more populous than both put together...heck, you could put every Canadian living off the Corridor network into Florida (including the minority of those in Ontario and Quebec) and have room to spare.


Here's another way to look at the population of Canada:

_34,482,779 _- 2011
Source: World Bank

Population of California:

_37,691,912 _- Jul 2011
Source: U.S. Census Bureau

Both: www.google.com/publicdata

Population of Ontario, Canada's most populous province:

13.51 million (2012)

Population of Quebec:

8.081 million (2012)

Population of Los Angeles County:

_9,889,056 _- Jul 2011
Source: U.S. Census Bureau

www.google.com/publicdata

California has 3,000,000 more people than the entire country of Canada, and Los Angeles County has nearly 2,000,000 more than Canada's second most populous province.

Meanwhile, California's total area is 163,696 sq miles (423,970 km²).

Canada's total area is 3.855 million sq miles (9.985 million km²).


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## xyzzy (May 15, 2013)

... which gets back to my point that the Canadian and Ocean are about a mix of tourism and essential transportation to small towns.


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## yarrow (May 16, 2013)

perhaps it is in the annual report (we have a dial-up internet connection so it would take me a long time view the report) but how much of a subsidy is required per 1st class passenger on the canadian?


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## Gord (Jun 20, 2013)

NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA is certainly not in a “Death Spiral” and not the “next Mexico”. Last year they cut 1 round trip per week on the Canadian which has since been restored and 3 round trips per week on the Ocean. There was also a train cut between Niagara Falls and Toronto and between Sarnia and Toronto and some corridor adjustments but the “Core” Corridor where people are actually riding trains saw an increase in service.
> GO Transit had added all-day bus service on the Niagara Falls route connecting to trains in Burlington and it was the passengers who abandoned the morning VIA train into Toronto and the evening return service for the almost hourly bus-train combination. Same thing happened when GO added service to Kitchener.
> 
> Perhaps it’s time that the Canadian is privatized…….at least the First Class portion with the Government still subsidizing coach for those that just have no other choice for transportation. A potential operator could be Rocky Mountaineer who has demonstrated they can run a well used “Land Cruise” type of service. As a taxpayer, why should I be subsidizing your railfan adventure on the Canadian?
> ...


I agree with a lot of your assesment and I'm sure Harper's conservative buddies would love to have the Canadian out of their hair in terms of competition or to take portions of the route over and/or buy equipment at bargain prices.

Frankly, I ride the Canadian 3 to 5 round trips per year and its always pretty busy so I'm not buying the "nobody uses the train" nonsense I keep hearing. A lot of folks who use the Canadian and Ocean in intermediate communities are older or don't have huge incomes so they may object to being stuffed into coaches instead of berths, roomettes and bedrooms. I'll sure be hopping mad and on the phone to my MP if that ever happens.

It's hard to argue that dropping of a Toronto-Kitchener run was a big deal as it was replaced with a one seat ride on a GO train althoiugh currently not much help to Torontonians travelling to and from Kitchener. Loss of a Sarnia train was a bigger deal. OTOH, a one seat ride was lost on the Niagara Falls run and as a frequent user, I don't like buses and I don't want to switch modes. I'm not alone on this. This was a reduction in quality of service.

Perhaps you don't want to subsidise my frequent business trips from Toronto to Edmointon on the Canadian but then I don't travel by flying cattle car and maybe I'm not happy about the $400 million of my tax dollars going into your new Toronto (Pickering) airport, let alone all the other billions in airport, highway, seaway and road subsidies I pay for but have limited use of. Don't even get me started on the pollution and huge fuel consumption created by all those flights and highway expansions, either.

The bottom line is that this government is specifically gunning for Via Rail's paltry subsidy while throwing huge money at non-rail transport projects. I do not blame Via management for this, they are being ordered to make cuts by the Feds,

The result of the frequency reductions to the long distance trains will be lower overall ridership and less service and choice for users. It will then be used as an excuse to cancel the trains, entirely. Sounds like the 1950's all over again, the war on trains and lack of a level playing field continue.

Gord


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 13, 2013)

TVRM610 said:


> If you ride the Canadian and then ride the Empire Builder you will see a vast difference in the people and how they are using the train.
> The people riding the Canadian are in more of a "land cruise" mode, even if they are using it as transportation.
> 
> The people riding the Empire Builder are in more of a transportation mode.
> ...


I guess this is why VIA Rail is doing so bad. I think the Canadian, Skeena, and Ocean/Chaleur should become private train curises, with essential serivce sections provided by the government. The Hudson Bay is obviously essential transport, and the other trains would be retained in the current status quo.


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## rrdude (Jul 13, 2013)

yarrow said:


> perhaps it is in the annual report (we have a dial-up internet connection so it would take me a long time view the report) but how much of a subsidy is required per 1st class passenger on the canadian?


Dial-Up *STILL EXISTS? * :unsure: I know it does, but it's just hard to imagine having to put up with those speeds, or lack thereof!

I guess I'm just a spoiled-rotten kid, er, old fart.


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## railiner (Jul 13, 2013)

If they would bring back the overnight New York-Niagara Falls- Toronto joint Amtrak/Via service, I am sure that it would do very well, and restore the second Niagara Falls-Toronto schedule as a result.

I don't recall the brief period it did run years back, and I am not even sure if it was a thru train like the Maple Leaf, or just a connection at Niagara Falls.

I am familiar with bus schedules, and the overnite buses on that ten to twelve hour trip (varies), arer far more popular overnite than all-day....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 13, 2013)

railiner said:


> If they would bring back the overnight New York-Niagara Falls- Toronto joint Amtrak/Via service, I am sure that it would do very well, and restore the second Niagara Falls-Toronto schedule as a result.I don't recall the brief period it did run years back, and I am not even sure if it was a thru train like the Maple Leaf, or just a connection at Niagara Falls.
> 
> I am familiar with bus schedules, and the overnite buses on that ten to twelve hour trip (varies), arer far more popular overnite than all-day....


That's strange, I ride all day all the time. I can't imagine why people would like sleeping on abus better than just riding by day. I guess the overnight train would be good for some biz travellers, but I don't understand the bus.



rrdude said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > perhaps it is in the annual report (we have a dial-up internet connection so it would take me a long time view the report) but how much of a subsidy is required per 1st class passenger on the canadian?
> ...


:blink: Oh wow.....


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## railiner (Jul 18, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > If they would bring back the overnight New York-Niagara Falls- Toronto joint Amtrak/Via service, I am sure that it would do very well, and restore the second Niagara Falls-Toronto schedule as a result.I don't recall the brief period it did run years back, and I am not even sure if it was a thru train like the Maple Leaf, or just a connection at Niagara Falls.
> ...


People like sleeping away most of the ride to make it seem shorter. This is especially true on trips of this 500 mile length. They also like it because it saves them from paying for a night in a hotel. I know many disagree with this logic, but it is true nonetheless....


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 18, 2013)

Take a look at eastbound flights from the West Coast to the East Coast! I would venture to say 30-40% of them are red eyes, because the ability to try to sleep away the time, and not losing a day in travel are very important to a lot of people, not just business travelers. When I went to New Jersey last week, you betcha that my flight east was a red eye, and even though I was tired the next day, I got to spend a whole extra day with my best friend. Nothing else compares. In some markets, an overnight flight is the ONLY direct option. From San Diego to Miami, the only daily flight is a red eye, one of JetBlue's two to Boston is a redeye. One of US Airways' 3 to PHL is a redeye... the list goes on, but you get the point. It is a large market, and the ability to arrive in a destination without losing any time (get to airport [or in this case bus terminal] at 7-9 giving enuogh time for dinner and packing after a non-impacted day, and arrive between 5-7 in the morning, allowing for no wasted time there either).


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## railiner (Jul 19, 2013)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Take a look at eastbound flights from the West Coast to the East Coast! I would venture to say 30-40% of them are red eyes, because the ability to try to sleep away the time, and not losing a day in travel are very important to a lot of people, not just business travelers. When I went to New Jersey last week, you betcha that my flight east was a red eye, and even though I was tired the next day, I got to spend a whole extra day with my best friend. Nothing else compares. In some markets, an overnight flight is the ONLY direct option. From San Diego to Miami, the only daily flight is a red eye, one of JetBlue's two to Boston is a redeye. One of US Airways' 3 to PHL is a redeye... the list goes on, but you get the point. It is a large market, and the ability to arrive in a destination without losing any time (get to airport [or in this case bus terminal] at 7-9 giving enuogh time for dinner and packing after a non-impacted day, and arrive between 5-7 in the morning, allowing for no wasted time there either).


Absolutely. Even more apparent if you look at "rush hour" at JFK airport....The morning flights to Europe you can practically count on one hand, but the evening flights are like subway trains, they depart so frequently........


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 19, 2013)

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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I try to avoid sleeping in seat as much as possible, so I guess these guys take their time more importantly than comfort.



johnny.menhennet said:


> Take a look at eastbound flights from the West Coast to the East Coast! I would venture to say 30-40% of them are red eyes, because the ability to try to sleep away the time, and not losing a day in travel are very important to a lot of people, not just business travelers. When I went to New Jersey last week, you betcha that my flight east was a red eye, and even though I was tired the next day, I got to spend a whole extra day with my best friend. Nothing else compares. In some markets, an overnight flight is the ONLY direct option. From San Diego to Miami, the only daily flight is a red eye, one of JetBlue's two to Boston is a redeye. One of US Airways' 3 to PHL is a redeye... the list goes on, but you get the point. It is a large market, and the ability to arrive in a destination without losing any time (get to airport [or in this case bus terminal] at 7-9 giving enuogh time for dinner and packing after a non-impacted day, and arrive between 5-7 in the morning, allowing for no wasted time there either).


I have to say that I would not fly on a red-eye if possible. I mostly fly intercontinenetal, and I like to choose a morning departure so that I don't have to sleep on the plane and save money with Economy Class,despite having to deal with jet lag.

BTW, why don't you fly out of LAX? You could take American Flagship or United PS. Those are pretty good, the Flagship is a nice 767. AA does have finalcial woes.


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## railiner (Jul 19, 2013)

AA's financial woes are about over, as it is coming out of bankruptcy, and will soon be combined with US Airways, whose stockholders just approved the merger.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 20, 2013)

railiner said:


> AA's financial woes are about over, as it is coming out of bankruptcy, and will soon be combined with US Airways, whose stockholders just approved the merger.


That's good, but their new livery is a terrible disgrace IMO. They should have kept their old bare-metal livery, it looked splendid on the 762, 763, and 77E, maybe not so much on the smaller planes. They must've thought it would look bad on the new Airbuses and the 77W.


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## railiner (Jul 21, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
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> > AA's financial woes are about over, as it is coming out of bankruptcy, and will soon be combined with US Airways, whose stockholders just approved the merger.
> ...


I totally agree....the old look, with highly polished bare aluminum has been around so long, is so well recognized, that it is iconic. And AA founder C R Smith used to tell how it saved not only on painting costs, but over the entire fleet, save millions in annual fuel costs, due to not carry several hundred pounds of paint on the large aircraft.

Unfortunately the newer aircraft have composite skins, which do not look good unpainted, and I've heard actually must be painted for their protection.

However, I agree, the new design looks terrible, or more specifically the tail does. The rest of the fuselage isn't too bad. I would have preferred they just used a silver paint, and kept the old paint scheme entirely.

I believe part of the reason for the new design was to show them as "the New American Airlines", having come back from bankruptcy, pushed by their PR department....

Once their merger is complete with US Air, they will have an excuse and opportunity to modify and hopefully improve it .....


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 21, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> railiner said:
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> > Swadian Hardcore said:
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I entirely understand that red eye flights aren't for everyone, and I respect that, but I didn't take those airlines 1) driving an hour and a half (dont even get me started on the 405's traffic though) to LAX is either a waste of gas or fairly expensive on the train, when in 25 minutes I can already be in the security line at SAN from my house 2) the airfares were higher 3) my friend told me i could only stay 5 nights, if getting in in early morning hours means that night doesnt count and i get more time with her, that makes that option more attractive to me 4) the cost was unbeatable. I only booked the airfare a month out, and US Air going and Southwest coming back had airfare too low to resist. I, like yourself apparently, fly coach to save money, because these tickets were my birthday present. I will always find myself enjoying redeyes, but we're all entitled to our opinions


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 21, 2013)

railiner said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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> > railiner said:
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Which of the newer aircraft have composite skins? If the 777-200ER can fly bare-metal, then I'm sure the -300ER can as well. I'm not sure about the Airbus A320. They should have at least painted the silver section white, like they did with some leased planes before.



johnny.menhennet said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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> > railiner said:
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Hmm, well, how do you deal with sleeping on those? I've always had more trouble sleeping on a plane than a bus or train for some reason.


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## johnny.menhennet (Jul 21, 2013)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> johnny.menhennet said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm, well, how do you deal with sleeping on those? I've always had more trouble sleeping on a plane than a bus or train for some reason


Well I mean it sucks, but you deal with it. You get 1-2 hours of sleep throughout the night, but it is not a big deal to me while I'm still young. I don't have any strategies other than have a window seat so you can lean against something. Even if it's stiff it's still better to lean your head on SOMETHING.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 21, 2013)

johnny.menhennet said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
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> > johnny.menhennet said:
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I sure can't function on so little sleep. I remember some info somehwere that human sleep comes in 90-minute blocks, but I don't think a single 90-minute block is anywhere near enough. So, I assume you make up your sleep the next day? Wouldn't that make the red-eye pointless if you sleep during the day and lose time with friends anyway?


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## railiner (Jul 22, 2013)

If you look at the 777, or for that matter, the newer 737's, in the old scheme, you will see that their tail section is painted a grey color in an attempt to match the rest of the aircraft's aluminum fuselage. The 787 is all composite. I don't think any airliner's have been all-aluminum since the '70's or '80's The last one being perhaps the DC-10...?


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 22, 2013)

railiner said:


> If you look at the 777, or for that matter, the newer 737's, in the old scheme, you will see that their tail section is painted a grey color in an attempt to match the rest of the aircraft's aluminum fuselage. The 787 is all composite. I don't think any airliner's have been all-aluminum since the '70's or '80's The last one being perhaps the DC-10...?


Even on the old 741 that AA had a few of, they still had the grey tail. I think you are right, the DC-10 looks like the last AA with a silver tail.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 23, 2013)

Maybe they ought to use SP's old "Simulated Stainless Steel" paint job that SP used for their painted cars when they went to the standardized tomato stripe scheme :giggle:


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## railiner (Jul 23, 2013)

There is some kind of finish for plastic that looks like stainless or aluminum, that has common use on some automobile's and other applications, but I don't know if it is suitable or usable on a composite aircraft skin.....


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## Swadian Hardcore (Jul 24, 2013)

The old livery is probably better for marketing purposes anyway, since it's so famous. Most of the travelling public probably don't even know that AA went bankrupt, or even if they did, I don't think the new livery will gain more revenue. They might as well use the white substitute for silver that was on the leased 741s from Pan Am.


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