# 2018 Discount Fares and Refund/Cancellation Fee Changes



## AmtrakLKL (Dec 27, 2017)

** Edited January 10 to reflect actual posted policy that changed a couple times at the last minute. 
** Edited March 18 to reflect changes scheduled to take effect March 20.

*The following changes are effective March 20, 2018:*

As was originally in the January changes and rescinded at the last minute, the ability to receive a full eVoucher no more.

One positive change - Sleeping car purchases did receive an increase in the no penalty window from 1 hour post-purchase to 24 hours post-purchase.

*Cancellation/Refund Fee Changes*

NOTE: If you made a reservation prior to March 20 and want to cancel after March 20, the computer will automatically apply the new policy. Agents are supposed to override the computer and apply the correct fee in effect when the reservation was originally purchased. Changes made to existing reservations on or after March 20 will bring the reservation under the new cancellation policy.

*Sleeping Car Reservations*


Cancel within 24 hours of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel at least 15 days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Cancel 14 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 75% non-refundable eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Acela First Class, Non-Acela Business Class*


Cancel prior to scheduled departure - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Reserved Coach, Acela Business Class Excluding Flexible Full Fares*


Cancel at least 8 days prior to scheduled departure - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel 7 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full Refund or eVoucher
Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel more than 1 hour after purchase - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher
Flexible Full Fares continue to offer full refund at any time.

*Advance Purchase Saver Fares*


Cancel within 24 hours of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 24 hours after purchase but prior to scheduled departure - 75% non-refundable eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Unreserved Coach Fares*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 1 hour after purchase - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher

*USA Rail Pass, California Rail Pass*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund
Rail Pass has been issued but no travel reservations have been made and no tickets have been issued - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Rail Pass has been issued and reservations have been made:Cancel at least two days prior to first scheduled departure - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
If tickets have been issued (these are still paper ticket reservations), all tickets and rail pass must be mailed to Amtrak Refunds for refund.
Cancel less than two days prior to first scheduled departure - No Refund, No eVoucher. Pass will be considered used.










*The following changes are effective January 7, 2018:*

*Fare Changes*

*Senior Discount*


Qualifying age raised to 65.
Discount lowered to 10%.
Discount only valid on Value Fares.
Not valid on Flexible (Full Fare Y) Fares. 
As before, still not valid on Saver Fares, Acela Express or Auto Train.
*Disabled Fare*


Discount lowered to 10%.
*Mobility Impaired Fare*


Discount lowered to 10%.
Still applies to both rail fare and accommodation charge.
*Child Fare*


Now limited to one half-price child fare per adult, down from two per adult.

*Cancellation/Refund Fee Changes*

_Maybe it's just me, but it seems Amtrak has made this really complicated..._

There is now just one fee and it shall be called the Cancellation Fee. It applies when canceling travel for a refund back to the original form of payment. It will apply any time a reservation is canceled and not immediately rebooked in the same record. If the rebooking results in a lower fare the cancellation fee will apply if refunded to the original form of payment.

The minimum cancellation fee is $5 and the maximum is $250.

NOTE: If you made a reservation prior to January 7 and want to cancel after January 7, the computer will automatically apply the new policy. Agents are supposed to override the computer and apply the correct fee in effect when the reservation was originally purchased. Changes made to existing reservations on or after January 7 will bring the reservation under the new cancellation policy.

*Sleeping Car Reservations*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel at least 15 days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or 100% eVoucher
Cancel 14 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 100% non-refundable eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Acela First Class, Non-Acela Business Class*


Cancel prior to scheduled departure - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Reserved Coach, Acela Business Class Excluding Flexible Full Fares*


Cancel at least 8 days prior to scheduled departure - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel 7 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or 100% eVoucher
Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full Refund or eVoucher
Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel more than 1 hour after purchase - 75% refund or 100% eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Advance Purchase Saver Fares*


Cancel within 24 hours of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 24 hours after purchase but prior to scheduled departure - 100% non-refundable eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Unreserved Coach Fares*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 1 hour after purchase - 75% refund or 100% eVoucher

*USA Rail Pass, California Rail Pass*


Rail Pass has been purchased but not issued - Full refund or eVoucher
Rail Pass has been issued but no travel reservations have been made and no tickets have been issued - 75% refund or 100% eVoucher
Rail Pass has been issued and reservations have been made:Cancel at least two days prior to first scheduled departure - 75% refund or 100% eVoucher
If tickets have been issued (these are still paper ticket reservations), all tickets and rail pass must be mailed to Amtrak Refunds for refund.
Cancel less than two days prior to first scheduled departure - No Refund, No eVoucher. Pass will be considered used.

*Monthly Tickets*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 1 hour after purchase but prior to month starting - 75% refund
Cancel on the 1st through the 10th of the month - 25% refund
Cancel on the 11th of the month or later - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Multi-Ride Tickets*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase and no trips taken - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 1 hour after purchase and no trips taken - 75% refund
One or more trips taken - No Refund, No eVoucher


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## willem (Dec 27, 2017)

> *Cancellation/Refund Fee Changes*
> 
> *Sleeping Car Reservations*
> 
> ...


Does eVoucher mean a full credit unless explicitly limited?

It seems like it would have been little extra effort to say "75% refund or 100% credit to eVoucher" and "No refund but 75% credit to non-refundable eVoucher" rather than the existing phrasing.


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## Ryan (Dec 27, 2017)

I think the era of avoiding the fee by taking a eVoucher is over.



AmtrakLKL said:


> There is now just one fee and it shall be called the Cancellation Fee. It applies when canceling travel *and storing the value in an eVoucher*


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## Anderson (Dec 27, 2017)

My earlier comments were deleted. Suffice it to say they were about on par with my AGR 2.0 comments. This has been a completely awful December and at this point I will not be observing the month as best I can in the future.

I _do_ wish that Amtrak would come out with some sort of "Flex sleeper" fare, but that aside? I wish them nothing but the worst.


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## jebr (Dec 27, 2017)

Ryan said:


> I think the era of avoiding the fee by taking a eVoucher is over.


Which, honestly, is kind of dumb. Granted, the fact that an eVoucher could be extended essentially in perpetuity should be fixed so it has a hard limit of some sort, but Amtrak should incentivise the option for Amtrak to keep the money for future travel (thus guaranteeing some revenue) over a straight refund (which doesn't keep people in Amtrak's system as well.)

In general, though? Other than the eVoucher silliness and the areas where you can't get a refund within 24 hours of purchase (but the trip is still more than 7 days out,) I'm ambivalent towards the changes. I wish Saver fares were a bit more flexible, but I generally am traveling coach when traveling on cash (I usually only upgrade to sleeper when I have AGR points) and having 100% refund availability on a "low bucket" non-saver fare up to 8 days before departure is still significantly better than almost any of the competition. There's still the flexible fare for those that need the option for more flexibility, although I do agree that a "flex sleeper" is needed, even if the cost is ridiculously high (why not give the option for those that may avail themselves of it?)


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## Anderson (Dec 27, 2017)

Ok, an observation: When AGR 2.0 (Next Stop, Dearborn!) was rolled out, the 10%/20% penalty for sleeper cancellations was only supposed to apply to differences in fares. Well, lo and behold the computers were incapable of processing this (so you were "cancelled" even if rebooking immediately/just doing a change) so that actually didn't pan out and they could never be bothered to fix it.

Also, the lack of any waivers being mentioned for "status" members compares badly next to most airlines (e.g. DL, UA, and AA all have varying degrees of SDC waivers and the like).

Edit: Also, IIRC refunds do have net fees involved, so I had presumed that the voucher-related incentives were somewhat intentional.


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## jebr (Dec 27, 2017)

There's some way to make a change, at least with coach reservations, without triggering the cancel/rebook process. I've changed an AGR coach reservation online to a different date and suffered no penalty (since the points needed on the change were the same.) I believe a cancel/rebook would have triggered a 10% penalty.

I'm not sure what, if anything, is different on the sleeper side, but it should be _possible_ to modify without actually killing off the reservation. My guess is that it's a convoluted process and agents generally go for the easier-but-now-more-costly cancel and rebook route over the phone.


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## Anderson (Dec 27, 2017)

jebr said:


> There's some way to make a change, at least with coach reservations, without triggering the cancel/rebook process. I've changed an AGR coach reservation online to a different date and suffered no penalty (since the points needed on the change were the same.) I believe a cancel/rebook would have triggered a 10% penalty.
> 
> I'm not sure what, if anything, is different on the sleeper side, but it should be _possible_ to modify without actually killing off the reservation. My guess is that it's a convoluted process and agents generally go for the easier-but-now-more-costly cancel and rebook route over the phone.


TBH I'm going to talk with a lawyer, since I suspect I may be having to fight agents in the future over this point, and I would not be surprised if a visit or two to small claims court will be inevitable when an agent botches a change and someone refuses to change it back.


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## SubwayNut (Dec 27, 2017)

What's the policy for refunds/eVouchers for canceling a reservation day of if the train is late?

I've booked South Bend to Chicago a few times on Amtrak (more comfortable and faster, $15 is the advance saver fare while the South Shore is $13.50) and definitely took advantage of the liberal cancel for an eVoucer policy. If the Lake Shore or Capitol Limited are running late the plan is always to take the South Shore Line instead.

I could now see booking dummy reservations as a reservation change to "kick" the ticket down the road for example until I need to buy a future tickets.


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## Anderson (Dec 27, 2017)

SubwayNut said:


> What's the policy for refunds/eVouchers for canceling a reservation day of if the train is late?
> 
> I've booked South Bend to Chicago a few times on Amtrak (more comfortable and faster, $15 is the advance saver fare while the South Shore is $13.50) and definitely took advantage of the liberal cancel for an eVoucer policy. If the Lake Shore or Capitol Limited are running late the plan is always to take the South Shore Line instead.
> 
> I could now see booking dummy reservations as a reservation change to "kick" the ticket down the road for example until I need to buy a future tickets.


I think the "late train" policy remains unchanged (no change seems to have been announced), though I wouldn't put it past them to sneak something in there as well.


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## jebr (Dec 27, 2017)

I don't think it'll be changing. From Amtrak:



> Refund Restrictions and Late Trains
> 
> The above restrictions and fees will not apply to refunds requested by passengers who chose not to travel due to a long distance train being two or more hours late or a corridor train being one or more hours late at the departure station.


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## PVD (Dec 27, 2017)

Extremely difficult to get an Amtrak case heard anywhere other than a Federal Court, where they don't have a small claims process to speak of.


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## AmtrakLKL (Dec 27, 2017)

Anderson said:


> SubwayNut said:
> 
> 
> > What's the policy for refunds/eVouchers for canceling a reservation day of if the train is late?
> ...


The late train policy remains unchanged with the new cancellation policies. 1 hour late for short-haul/corridor trains and 2 hours for long distance trains, no penalty for refund.



willem said:


> > *Cancellation/Refund Fee Changes*
> >
> > *Sleeping Car Reservations*
> >
> ...


I was lazy and didn't type 75% eVoucher over and over and over. Whatever it says "XX% refund or eVoucher" means XX% refund or same XX% to an eVoucher. There is no more full credit to an eVoucher unless it says Full refund or eVoucher.

If you're eligible for a full refund without penalty, I have no idea why anyone would park that money in an eVoucher anyway. Just take the refund. The whole incentive to eVouchers was usually retaining all your monies paid in vs. losing a percentage on refund. With that incentive gone, why would anyone take an eVoucher? Might as well just take whatever refund you can get and park the money in your bank account instead of Amtrak's. As I said, Amtrak just really complicated the whole policy. Might as well throw phases of the moon into the penalty calculations.


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## DoB (Dec 27, 2017)

AmtrakLKL said:


> Might as well throw phases of the moon into the penalty calculations.


Don't give them any ideas!


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## Anderson (Dec 28, 2017)

So, I'm already playing "spot the workaround" and I think I know a few fixes that could be used in some cases. I'm actually going to engage in a bit of discretion and not share everything I come up with on this, however, at least until I have ideas more solidly worked out.

Edit: Anyone who wants to swap ideas, I'm going to do any chatting via PM (or other ways that aren't public...let's just say that I've gotten very used to having non-public chats when dealing with airlines).


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## PRR 60 (Dec 28, 2017)

If you are going to get whacked with a 25% "cancellation fee" regardless of whether the funds go to an eVoucher or a refund, then don't cancel. Use the "rebook on the same record (PNR)" option and reserve a dummy trip of equal value 11 months out. Leave the funds parked there. If you have another trip to take, then go to that reservation and rebook again. if after 11 months you have no opportunities to use the original funds, then cancel and take the hit.

Of course, this depends on how Amtrak handles the PNR. Does a change of origin or destination force a new PNR? Does a change of class of service force a new PNR? Does an agent in a bad mood force a new PNR? Who knows. With Amtrak, rules like this can be a bit of a moving target.

I have a vision of a bunch of Amtrak suits sitting around a conference table each throwing his or her two cents into this plan. It is so convoluted that it had to be rule making by committee.


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## John Bobinyec (Dec 28, 2017)

How do you do a "rebook on the same record (PNR)"? I've got a reservation and tried to change it. It seems that it will allow me to pick a different train, service or date, but the origin and destination stay the same.

jb


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## PRR 60 (Dec 28, 2017)

John Bobinyec said:


> How do you do a "rebook on the same record (PNR)"? I've got a reservation and tried to change it. It seems that it will allow me to pick a different train, service or date, but the origin and destination stay the same.
> 
> jb


If you can't do it on the website or within the app, then you have to call and see what the agent can do. I have no idea what the rules are about what forces a new PNR at Amtrak. It it carrier specific and may be tied to the capabilities and limitations of the IT system. The knowledge and capability of the agent may also be a factor, which is a major variable at Amtrak.

One of the benefits of rail travel should flexibility. Amtrak has slowly been draining that flexibility toward what seems to be their ultimate goal - become an airline. Except, that in some ways, Amtrak's restrictions are now worse than an airline. I have multiple occasions to fly American through O'Hare, and usually book a lengthy stopover just because it's O'Hare. If I arrrive at ORD on-time or early (it does happen), I can change to an earlier connecting flight at no charge assuming there are seats. Amtrak would force payment of any fare differential. In this case, Amtrak is less flexible than even a legacy air carrier.

NARP, aka RPA should dare to confront Amtrak about these changes - and publicly, not in private meetings behind the scenes (allegedly). They should provide names, phone numbers, emails etc. for members to contact at Amtrak, just as they do when Congress is planning some negative action toward Amtrak. After all, NARP is supposed to represent the interests of rail passengers. Representing passengers may at times mean opposing Amtrak. I'm not holding my breath.


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## KmH (Dec 28, 2017)

DoB said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> > Might as well throw phases of the moon into the penalty calculations.
> ...


I laughed out loud.


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## CAMISSY55 (Dec 28, 2017)

This new policy will significantly impact my travel decisions. Between my chronic health conditions that flare unexpectedly and the nature of my husband's job that involves being ready to temporarily relocate (for a few weeks to many months) on very short notice, Amtrak's e-voucher refund/change policy has made it possible to plan travel knowing if either issue arises I can change my plans.

I don't think that I will risk planning a trip when I risk losing 25% of the already expensive cost of traveling cross country by sleeper car, generally in a bedroom.

This policy change seems to be influenced by the airline background of Amtrak's new CEO. Sad.


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## amtrakpass (Dec 28, 2017)

if that is the correct understanding of charging a fee for an evoucher that really is very bad news indeed! I have used a voucher to change my plans at the last minute many, many times. You have to use the voucher for Amtrak travel within a year anyway so they aren't losing any money. There are many trips I just could not afford to take if they are going to charge major fees to change a date since my work schedule can change at the drop of a hat. Flexibility with fares and dates is a huge advantage Amtrak has had. What a shame to throw it away.


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 28, 2017)

I wonder how much this fare flexibility has cost Amtrak over the years. I remember not that long ago people booking multiple trips and cancelling the alternates because of the so called flexibility.


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## ehbowen (Dec 28, 2017)

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the sleeper cancelation policy is driven by the practice of travel agencies booking every available room on the train for resale, and then canceling the unsold ones at the last minute for a voucher which they can use to do the same thing next season.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## the_traveler (Dec 28, 2017)

I agree.

If multiple reservations are booked by XYZ Travel Agency, I think there should be a penalty. However, if a room is booked by Joe & Kathy Smith at (address) and (phone number), or even a 2nd room by Ken & Steph Public at (address) and (phone number), there should not be a penalty. Most likely, a travel agency booking a block of rooms 11 months out will not have all the clients names at the time.


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## Anderson (Dec 28, 2017)

On the one hand, they might put names on the reservations but change them later. On the other hand, they'll probably be paying with the same credit cards, so some sleuthing on Amtrak's part should show what's going on. It wouldn't seem to be too hard for them to put a line into their terms and conditions barring such a practice and then drop the hammer on and agency, forcing them to a refund if they're being abusive.


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## Anderson (Dec 28, 2017)

Following up on the above, since I'm on my phone...

I'm trying to remember when the change from 10 to 20% happened. Wasn't that just back in August? I really don't appreciate having to deal with Schrodinger's change/cancel policy.


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## PRR 60 (Dec 28, 2017)

Anderson said:


> Following up on the above, since I'm on my phone...
> 
> I'm trying to remember when the change from 10 to 20% happened. Wasn't that just back in August? I really don't appreciate having to deal with Schrodinger's change/cancel policy.


Last year - August 15, 2016.


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## City of Miami (Dec 28, 2017)

So it seems like now cancelling a trip with points is less punitive than cancelling a trip with cash. Is it still 10 or 20%, depending on timing, to cancel an AGR trip?


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## jebr (Dec 28, 2017)

Or, perhaps, tie a full eVoucher refund to having an active AGR account and limiting it to, say, 2-4/year for a full eVoucher amount? That would seem a lot more difficult to work around for pre-booking (can you even do a name change without a cancellation for Amtrak?) and encourage enrollment in AGR.


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## Shortline (Dec 28, 2017)

There are still travel agents? Seriously, I can't imagine that's the problem, first, there are so few left anyway, second, it's not like they could front the money to book that many rooms for even one day, much less multiple days, that far in the future. It was a low margin business and I can't imagine too many of them had the available free cash flow to do that.

Really, it's not a bad deal-certainly better than you get on an airline for the most part, and it makes sense. If the train is booked when I'm shopping to travel, I'm going to book a plane. If that room later opens up near train time, it's likely it may go empty, and they've either given your money back, or ended up taking another paid revenue space off a future train. I'm ok with it,


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## ehbowen (Dec 28, 2017)

Shortline said:


> There are still travel agents? Seriously, I can't imagine that's the problem, first, there are so few left anyway, second, it's not like they could front the money to book that many rooms for even one day, much less multiple days, that far in the future. It was a low margin business and I can't imagine too many of them had the available free cash flow to do that.


Not the old-fashioned travel agencies, but the newfangled "packaging" companies. You want to book the _CZ_ from San Francisco to Denver in August? Aww, Amtrak's all booked up, but if you call us, we can sell you a special all-inclusive package...for seven thousand dollars.
ETA: Think ticket scalpers for train travel. But if a scalper at the stadium doesn't sell his seat, he loses his money. If these guys don't sell, they cancel their booking and get a voucher for next year. No downside...unless you're just a regular Joe looking to book a trip for your family at a regular price.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## the_traveler (Dec 28, 2017)

Yes, there are still travel agencies around. In fact, you may have heard of one:



> Amtrak Vacations


They are a totally separate company (a travel agency) that is under contract with Amtrak to provide packages. If you have a gift certificate from Amtrak Vacations, it can not be used directly to purchase train travel from Amtrak. You must use it at Amtrak Vacations!


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## Shortline (Dec 28, 2017)

I guess so. In this day and age I can't imagine why anyone would pay for that kind of a service.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 28, 2017)

Travel agents still exist but these days the fees are paid directly to the agency by the person traveling rather than being received as a sort of kickback from airlines and hotels. Many of us enjoy researching our travel options and looking for deals but some people just want to pickup the phone and give broad instructions that are turned into a personalized vacation behind the scenes. If you make good money but your job and family life is very hectic I suppose I could see the appeal. All you have to do is show up and enjoy the vacation. The minutia of making sure everything lines up smoothly is somebody else's problem and if things go horribly wrong you have someone else to blame. This is distinct from a prepackaged holiday where everyone travels in a group and receives roughly the same experience.


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## PVD (Dec 28, 2017)

Travel agencies may be way less commonly used for individuals, but for companies and organizations they perform very useful services. I am a member of an organization that has hundreds of volunteer members at its annual congress and mid winter meeting. Anyone attending calls the agent handling it and makes their booking. The organization gets one bill, and accurate records, and has established rules for bookings, someone is available 24/7 in case of problems, and hundreds of reimbursement requests don't have to get processed, with the headaches that accompany that. (sent in late, filled out wrong, lost in the mail, never got my check you made arrangements outside of the rules we gave you).

Larger companies also use them for business travel, many of them are mostly online, with human backup. Company sets booking guidelines, system lets you book within what is allowed. Levels of mgt override for special situations.


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## Anderson (Dec 28, 2017)

A handy example is that when I was traveling for a trip for William and Mary, I had to book via their travel agent. On the bright side, the TA literally didn't know an Acela from a Regional and I had an upgrade card to burn...

Edit: To be clear, there are situations where it is advantageous to use a TA, but that's generally (at least IMO) limited to either situations where they'll also be handling stuff like visa support letters and the like or trips where there's a lot of complexity that needs to be navigated.


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## Anderson (Dec 29, 2017)

One interesting "quirk" in the chart above: If for some reason a saver fare is on offer within the last seven days before departure (uncommon but I've seen a few of them only require three-day advance purchase), technically the saver fare now has the more flexible cancellation conditions (24 hrs vs. 1 hr). Bear in mind that as far as I've generally been concerned, a voucher might as well be cash (I'll use it within a few months).

FWIW, this has _probably_ cost Amtrak at least one LD trip (when I showed him this change, I believe that Charlie Hamilton promptly took an axe to his planned LD train trip to the NARP meeting this spring) and there's a decent chance it costs them a second one (I was planning to take the train to Worldcon in San Jose. Now? I'm probably at least cutting that trip back from WAS-CHI-LAX-SJC to just LAX-SJC).


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## Green Maned Lion (Dec 29, 2017)

Boscovs has a travel agency.


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## willem (Dec 29, 2017)

AmtrakLKL said:


> I was lazy and didn't type 75% eVoucher over and over and over. Whatever it says "XX% refund or eVoucher" means XX% refund or same XX% to an eVoucher. There is no more full credit to an eVoucher unless it says Full refund or eVoucher.


If you typed all that by hand, thank you for your extraordinary effort to let the community know about the change.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 29, 2017)

If you have a paper voucher and go to an agent in a station, is that affected? Is there a charge either for cancelling a trip and asking the station agent for a paper voucher? Or for redeeming a paper voucher and keeping part of it? Please forgive me if this was answered above, but I didn't see it if so.


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## jebr (Dec 29, 2017)

The penalty would be the same as an eVoucher.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


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## Mystic River Dragon (Dec 29, 2017)

Oh drat. Thanks, jebr.


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## PaulM (Dec 29, 2017)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I wonder how much this fare flexibility has cost Amtrak over the years. I remember not that long ago people booking multiple trips and cancelling the alternates because of the so called flexibility.


I wonder how much new business it has attracted and how much existing business was not lost because of the flexibility.

This issue is not quite the same as what I call the easy cost accounting syndrome; i.e. include the easy to count costs, but exclude the difficult to count ones and the ones that will be incurred in the future. But it's close.


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## PaulM (Dec 29, 2017)

ehbowen said:


> It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the sleeper cancelation policy is driven by the practice of travel agencies booking every available room on the train for resale, and then canceling the unsold ones at the last minute for a voucher which they can use to do the same thing next season.
> 
> Sent from my STV100-1 using Amtrak Forum mobile app


I'm sure Amtrak could handle the travel agencys without stiffing its regular customers.

Sent from my big, bad desktop


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Dec 29, 2017)

PaulM said:


> ehbowen said:
> 
> 
> > It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the sleeper cancelation policy is driven by the practice of travel agencies booking every available room on the train for resale, and then canceling the unsold ones at the last minute for a voucher which they can use to do the same thing next season.
> ...


I have to agree with @ehbowen.

I am sure if there was another way to deal with these travel agencies, Amtrak would have tried it years ago. I hope this new policy works, and as a customer, I would consider it to be a very small inconvenience, for a big pay back. I base that on the fact that I make train reservations far, far more often than I ever cancel them. I mean, for more than a couple of decades of train travel, I have only ever had to cancel a trip once.


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## Anderson (Dec 29, 2017)

PaulM said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how much this fare flexibility has cost Amtrak over the years. I remember not that long ago people booking multiple trips and cancelling the alternates because of the so called flexibility.
> ...


This. If anything, the issue with the "multiple bookings" was arguably a side-effect of Amtrak going all-reserved on the NEC back in 2002 or so (prior to which, if I'm not mistaken, reservations were _not_ required on many Regionals). Reading a bit deeper into this, if that is a major problem (and ironically, you can still effectively pull that trick in Business, just not in Coach, and on top of that a Business ticket _does_ tend to be cheaper than a Flexible Coach ticket more than a few days in advance/outside of peak travel periods) I suspect that Amtrak is in a nasty staring contest with a decent number of passengers in that area.

By the way, I suspect that at some point a secondary market in tickets is going to develop unless/until Amtrak _actually _tries to fight that...I literally cannot recall the last time I had my ID checked, so logical customer behavior on non-reserved trains, presuming that a ticket couldn't be used for insert-reason-here, would be to arrange to hand off the ticket in question for somewhere between 75-100% of face value. We're back down to those odd weaknesses of rail travel versus air travel (and I can't see aggressive ID checks at major terminals working too well). Granted, I couldn't pull this on my regular trains (there are a respectable number of OBS who would see my name, see someone else's face, and know something was off), but I can really see an impetus developing for illicit ticket-swapping since there's an increasing issue of _loss prevention_ rather than just a profit motive of some sort.


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## jis (Dec 31, 2017)

Amtrak now has a cancellation policy that is worse than most airlines. Specially the lack of cancellation for 100% refund within 24 hours of booking, which is required by law for airline tickets for all fare classes.

Additionally, there is now even less incentive to take Amtrak on medium distance trips when you can drive instead.

I think several of my planned trips in ‘18 just got converted to air + drive trips in the planning process.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## caravanman (Dec 31, 2017)

I have noticed that all the Amtrak train rides I have taken in the last few years have been considerably fuller than10 years ago. I guess if trains are running near capacity, then it makes sense not to give revenue away needlessly. As a senior, it seems a bad move to raise the discount start age to 65, I would have thought folk over 62 would make up a high proportion of passengers travelling for the fun of it? I guess Amtrak know what they are doing, they have the facts and figures about cancellations and ages of passengers to refer to.

Amtrak is not run as a benefit to passengers, it is a business.

Sadly, my other favourite rail system, India, is also more business minded, bumping up fares with dynamic prices and cutting back on "perks", at least for foreign seniors!

Ed.


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## tricia (Dec 31, 2017)

jis said:


> Additionally, there is now even less incentive to take Amtrak on medium distance trips when you can drive instead.


This ^

Amtrak is now MUCH less competitive with driving, for trips under a few hundred miles or so, particularly for anyone who has any sort of business or personal obligations that make schedule changes common--surely a large part of Amtrak's clientele. Previously, a full-credit voucher limited the cost of changing dates of travel to any increase in the cost of the ticket (if the fare on your new travel date is in a higher bucket than when you bought your ticket for the original travel date).

So Amtrak's new polcy is going to cost them this: Customers with uncertain schedules will be more reluctant to book tickets, and some will simply decide from the get-go to drive instead.

I don't have any way to quantify what Amtrak will be gaining from the change, but I'm doubtful it's going to be a net gain for them in revenue. It's certainly a net loss in good will.


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## TiBike (Dec 31, 2017)

Depends on your definition of medium distance, and on the available service. To me, San Jose to Sacramento is medium distance -- reliable three hour Capitol Corridor ride versus 2.5 to god knows how many hours in the car. San Jose to LA is long distance and worth getting on a plane. The Starlight takes all day, and a bit of the night, and can't be relied on to run on time (and leaves me stranded in downtown LA, arriving, as it does, after most of the local service has ended). Southwest gets me to my choice of southern California locations in less than an hour (flight time), usually on schedule. San Jose to San Francisco is short distance – reliable one hour Caltrain ride versus, occasionally, three hours in the car.

The new CEO seems to be focused on corridor service, which serves many high traffic, medium distance city pair routes. Because states are involved, those are also the routes least affected by the fare policy changes. Long distance trains do a poor job of serving medium distance routes already. I don't think the new fare policy will cost Amtrak more money in lost business than it gains.


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## jis (Dec 31, 2017)

Given that Amtrak is woefully under-equipped to actually meet the demand, they can almost do no wrong as far as jacking up fares go. I suspect a fare hike of 20% would probably still work out on many corridors. Look at the NEC!




In any case if they overshoot they can always bring 'em down or change cancellation policies within a few months. It is just an yield management exercise in a more global scale.

Once they have established a high baseline then they can play games with discounting, though their hands are considerably tied by Congressional mandate in that are. Meanwhile it may be reasonable to campaign with Congress to enforce the same cancellation rules that apply to airline tickets - the "within 24 hours of booking a ticket" thing. I am shooting off a missive to my Congressman who is always delighted to find something to beat Amtrak with.





In any case, I personally have to continue to use them for my purposes, and I am sure the feeling is quite mutual.

The only corridor I need to worry about in my immediate surrounding is getting a private passenger rail service which appears to be heading towards something superior to what Amtrak has to offer anywhere. The two suburban corridors in my area also do not have any meaningful usable Amtrak service. The other one - Orlando - Tampa has only marginally usable Amtrak service, and using it has never involved advanced purchase, since seats are almost always available when I get to Kissimmee to board the train. And if not, it is not a bad drive either, as long as yous tay clear of I-4





The only other corridor that is use regularly is the NEC and fares are already sky high there and Acela First Class still has reasonable (almost) cancellation policies, though I seldom buy an advanced ticket there, so all this cancellation policy changes do not affect me that much. The other Amtrak riding that I do is on LD trains. I will just change my habits to use them with purchase of tickets just before travel if reasonable fares are available, and not use Amtrak otherwise for the trip. So all this change does not really affect me as much as it might affect many others, and potentially Amtrak.


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## PaulM (Dec 31, 2017)

> Amtrak is not run as a benefit to passengers, it is a business.


Even if it weren't Amtrak, this statement needs a little elaboration. But especially Amtrak should mean more than this. Or it once did.


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## caravanman (Dec 31, 2017)

PaulM said:


> > Amtrak is not run as a benefit to passengers, it is a business.
> 
> 
> Even if it weren't Amtrak, this statement needs a little elaboration. But especially Amtrak should mean more than this. Or it once did.


Airlines don't fly passengers around because they enjoy doing it, they do it as a business, to make income. Some folk, such as myself, would say that trains and bus services should be subsidised to provide economic travel for all, as part of the infrastructure and support for society as a whole. Applying "business" thinking, instead of social needs thinking leads to a much reduced amenity for those at the bottom of the social scale. Opening up the Arctic Wildlife Reserves to oil drilling is an example of business over the needs of wider society.

Ed.


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## City of Miami (Jan 5, 2018)

Is this happening Sunday? I don't see any notification on Amtrak.com.


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## Chatter163 (Jan 5, 2018)

Anderson said:


> TBH I'm going to talk with a lawyer, since I suspect I may be having to fight agents in the future over this point, and I would not be surprised if a visit or two to small claims court will be inevitable when an agent botches a change and someone refuses to change it back.


Highly unlikely.


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## Chatter163 (Jan 5, 2018)

caravanman said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > > Amtrak is not run as a benefit to passengers, it is a business.
> ...


Yet airlines are heavily subsidized by the federal government, especially in their infrastructure of airports, air traffic controllers, etc., to say nothing of the bailouts that they can get in difficult economic times (e.g., after 9-11, during the recession).

The oil drilling is a vastly different situation (should public lands be used for private profit?), so it's an apples-to-oranges comparison, even though there are plenty examples of public-private enterprises at every level of government.


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## neroden (Jan 5, 2018)

This has to be challenged. It's crucial to have a fully refundable fare available, for both sleeper and coach. Even airlines have fully refundable fares available -- I've never encountered one which didn't. Sure, they're a lot higher, but they *exist*.

RPA/NARP needs to complain about this. It's a necessary thing.

The primary problem with this idiotic move is that they are driving away the *most price-insensitive*, *highest-paying* customers. These are the people who demand refundable tickets because their busy schedules mean they may have to change their plans -- and despite being price-insensitive, they dislike spending money for nothing.

It may look to Amtrak as if they'll gain revenue from this, but it'll probably cause a significant drop in revenue.

If this was addressed at travel agency abuses, there was probably another way to do it.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2018)

neroden said:


> This has to be challenged. It's crucial to have a fully refundable fare available, for both sleeper and coach. Even airlines have fully refundable fares available -- I've never encountered one which didn't. Sure, they're a lot higher, but they *exist*.
> 
> RPA/NARP needs to complain about this. It's a necessary thing.
> 
> The primary problem with this idiotic move is that they are driving away the *most price-insensitive*, *highest-paying* customers. It may look like they'll gain revenue from this, but it'll probably cause a drop in revenue.


I think you are right in surmising that some of the highest paying customers with disposable income to burn are the ones that will refrain from doing their disposable income burning on Amtrak service, sicne no one wants to commit 20% to 25% of their fare irrevocably to Amtrak.

I am one of those that does some disposable income burning on a whim, and when I do so on airlines I go for refundable fares since a whim thing may or may not happen at the end of the day. Absent a refundable fare I will simply strike that carrier off my list of potential places to spend such. Although I have no idea what proportion of Amtrak's fares come from such. but considering what typical Sleeper fares are, I find it hard to believe that most people taking Amtrak Sleepers are doing so with something other than their disposable income.


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## neroden (Jan 5, 2018)

*Sigh* I'm really busy right now, but if someone else contacts Jim Matthews and gets RPA to raise a stink about this, I would be happy to give Amtrak my personal testimony about this phenomenon, as one of the high-paying customers with disposable income who is not about to spend money for nothing. This is just bad business.


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## City of Miami (Jan 5, 2018)

The "old" policy is still posted on Amtrak.com under Refunds and Exchanges. I don't find any mention anywhere of a new policy except this thread on AU. Are they going to spring it unannounced on Sunday?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 5, 2018)

While I think a lot of of the policy is ill-advised and eliminates one of the advantages Amtrak held over airlines, I think a lot of you may be overreacting because of the way the proposal was typed. There are plenty of times where you will not receive a full refund...but you will receive 100% of the value in an e-voucher.

In other words, let's take this:

*Reserved Coach, Acela Business Class Excluding Flexible Full Fares*

* Cancel at least 8 days prior to scheduled departure - Full refund or eVoucher*
* Cancel 7 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or eVoucher*
* Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full Refund or eVoucher*
* Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel more than 1 hour after purchase - 75% refund or eVoucher*
* Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher*

You can basically cancel right up to the scheduled departure time and you'll get 100% credit on an eVoucher or 75% of your refund.

It is similar to the Sleeping Car policy.

*Sleeping Car Reservations*

* Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher*
* Cancel at least 15 days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or eVoucher*
* Cancel 14 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 75% non-refundable eVoucher*
* Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher*

Again, you can basically cancel up until the scheduled departure time and you'll get 100% credit on an eVoucher. If you want a refund, you get back 75% of your funds.

So, you can all but miss the train without letting anyone know and still retain 100% of your value for future travel...assuming you want to travel.

Meanwhile, I bought a ticket on a commuter railroad and not only is it non refundable (or exchangeable) after purchase, apparently it expired because I didn't use it in time.

We may still be ahead of the curve.


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## Ryan (Jan 5, 2018)

I hope that is correct and that this is incorrect:



Ryan said:


> I think the era of avoiding the fee by taking a eVoucher is over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 5, 2018)

Excellent post,as usual, Thirdrail!

The e-voucher is still our Ace in the hole for preventing "loan shark" fees by Amtrak!


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## PRR 60 (Jan 5, 2018)

So, we now have two different interpretations of the meaning of "75% refund or eVoucher." One is that the 75% only applies to the refund with the eVoucher issued for 100%. The other is that the 75% value applies to both. I guess we'll find out the first time someone cancels into an eVoucher - which could be me next week.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 5, 2018)

PRR 60 said:


> So, we now have two different interpretations of the meaning of "75% refund or eVoucher." One is that the 75% only applies to the refund with the eVoucher issued for 100%. The other is that the 75% value applies to both. I guess we'll find out the first time someone cancels into an eVoucher - which could be me next week.


Well, as I mentioned in the past, there are people that may see things that others may not, some may drop hints <cough cough> , while others may paraphrase and try to recreate the message to give people heads up. When that happens, sometimes things "are lost in the translation."

I'm hopeful that when the policy is posted PUBLICLY (or someone other than me decides to directly cut and paste the internal fact sheet), some of the concerns may be eased....a little.


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## jebr (Jan 5, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Meanwhile, I bought a ticket on a commuter railroad and not only is it non refundable (or exchangeable) after purchase, apparently it expired because I didn't use it in time.
> 
> We may still be ahead of the curve.


I tend to see commuter railroads different than Amtrak for fares, though. Typically there's no advantage to buying a ticket ahead of time other than not having to wait in line to purchase a ticket, trains are almost never reserved, and there's rarely a cutoff for how many people can book a ticket for a train. Amtrak can and does sell out and there is usually an advantage to booking ahead of time, putting it in a different category altogether in terms of what fare policy is expected.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2018)

PRR 60 said:


> So, we now have two different interpretations of the meaning of "75% refund or eVoucher." One is that the 75% only applies to the refund with the eVoucher issued for 100%. The other is that the 75% value applies to both. I guess we'll find out the first time someone cancels into an eVoucher - which could be me next week.


I bet not the first time, since we know that three Amtrak customer agents can interpret things five different ways too.

But eventually we will find out the true Zen of Amtrak's refund policy I am sure, and hopefully before it changes again.







jebr said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, I bought a ticket on a commuter railroad and not only is it non refundable (or exchangeable) after purchase, apparently it expired because I didn't use it in time.
> ...


Yeah. I usually purchase my Commuter train ticket after I board the train, on my Smartphone. Seldom does an occasion arise when I actually have the need to return one unused.


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## Ryan (Jan 5, 2018)

Also, perhaps lost in the pitchforks and torches brigade is that there is a max fee - while yes, it sucks to lose $250, you're not going to lose out on thousands of dollars as long as you cancel before the train leaves.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 5, 2018)

jebr said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, I bought a ticket on a commuter railroad and not only is it non refundable (or exchangeable) after purchase, apparently it expired because I didn't use it in time.
> ...


Agreed...but then you'd also have to realize that since their trains are not reserved, do not sell out, which means that you're not really depriving anyone down line of transportation (which are all things Amtrak has to contend with) you'd probably expect a more liberal policy from a commuter railroad. Indeed, there's is more conservative.

I mean, basically you can call up to 1 minute prior to departure and receive credit for future travel. Meanwhile, that space may not be sold or may be sold at some bucket that may or may not cause losses.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Also, perhaps lost in the pitchforks and torches brigade is that there is a max fee - while yes, it sucks to lose $250, you're not going to lose out on thousands of dollars as long as you cancel before the train leaves.


That is generally true of non-refundable fares on most airlines too. You can always preserve the PNR for at least a year by canceling before the departure of the first segment of the itinerary, and rebook a completely different itinerary using the full value for an additional fee.

And in addition airlines generally have a fully refundable fare too, that does not involve any vouchers or anything like that.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 5, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Also, perhaps lost in the pitchforks and torches brigade is that there is a max fee - while yes, it sucks to lose $250, you're not going to lose out on thousands of dollars as long as you cancel before the train leaves.


And to further muddy already turbid water, is the $250 max fee per person or per reservation? In other words, if a couple on the same PNR cancels a trip with a fare of $1000 per person, will the cancellation fee be $250 for the reservation, or $250 for each passenger - $500 total?


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## PRR 60 (Jan 5, 2018)

With regard to the value of a cancelled reservation retained in an eVoucher, I keep going back to this statement in the original, albeit unofficial report:



> There is now just one fee and it shall be called the Cancellation Fee. It applies when canceling travel and storing the value in an eVoucher and canceling travel for a refund back to the original form of payment. It will apply any time a reservation is canceled and not immediately rebooked in the same record. If the rebooking results in a lower fare the cancellation fee will apply to the remaining balance.


Beyond the initial discussion of "cancellation fee" as pointed out by Ryan, there is the further issue of the stated conditions required for modifying a reservation retaining full value - specifically "immediately rebooked in the same record." That requirement would not be necessary if cancelled reservations retained full value with eVouchers. New bookings could be made at anytime within the period of eVoucher validity.


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## jis (Jan 5, 2018)

AFAICT the Commuter Agencies have the policy that they have because it is the least cost policy for them, in that they don't have to maintain accounts of escrows of money that has been collected and service is yet to be delivered. For them once a ticket is purchased they can just book it as collected revenue with no encumbrances on it. Also they do not have to maintain the infrastructure for handling refunds on standard tickets. They do still maintain the ability to refund unused monthly tickets usually.

Also typically, the amounts involved in individual tickets are relatively small. And as I mentioned earlier, hoarding tickets is something that only railfans seem to do any more.


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## saxman (Jan 5, 2018)

Sounds like a few interpretations are out there now. Lets hope its the better of the two. I can totally see Amtrak restricting the cheapest "Saver" fares to non-refundable, non-changeable and no evouchers either. Or at least put in a penalty for having to change it. The next bucket is the "Value" which is what I buy the most and there is a not a penalty for changing this into an eVoucher. I can see Amtrak restricting this fare as well. Hopefully there will be a fare available that is totally changeable or voucher-able.

Any idea where these rumors came from?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 5, 2018)

saxman said:


> Sounds like a few interpretations are out there now. Lets hope its the better of the two. I can totally see Amtrak restricting the cheapest "Saver" fares to non-refundable, non-changeable and no evouchers either. Or at least put in a penalty for having to change it. The next bucket is the "Value" which is what I buy the most and there is a not a penalty for changing this into an eVoucher. I can see Amtrak restricting this fare as well. Hopefully there will be a fare available that is totally changeable or voucher-able.
> 
> Any idea where these rumors came from?


I believe the info is from an internal memo.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## jis (Jan 5, 2018)

So when does this go into effect? I have not seen any notification about it yet, and it is the 5th. Kind of late already if it is to take effect on the 7th, no?

Incidentally the "fares and refund policy" section(s) are clear as mud in the way the policy is written up even for the policy in force today. That whole page needs to be rewritten by someone who can do a better job than a free flow of consciousness style of writing.


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## Chey (Jan 5, 2018)

It really sucks that no one at Amtrak is trying to clear this up or make it public. I'm trying to decide whether to get an eVoucher by tomorrow for one segment of a trip next September. I made the reservation two months ago and this one segment is the only part of the trip that is a little iffy on the date of travel.


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## Ryan (Jan 5, 2018)

They will make it public when they are ready to. It will also almost certainly not apply to already existing reservations.


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## Chey (Jan 5, 2018)

I hope you're right


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## City of Miami (Jan 5, 2018)

Chey, according to the original post (in the Note- existing rezzies will be exempted from the new rules but you'll have to get an agent to override the computer.


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## Chey (Jan 5, 2018)

City of Miami said:


> Chey, according to the original post (in the Note- existing rezzies will be exempted from the new rules but you'll have to get an agent to override the computer.


Thanks - I guess I can always ask for a supervisor if the agent doesn't know that little detail. Or better yet, just go through an AGR agent. They seem to be more knowledgeable, at least in my experience.


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## neroden (Jan 6, 2018)

I certainly hope that it will still be possible to get full value in an e-Voucher. At the very least a fully *exchangable* ticket option is necessary in order to attract the high-end customer.


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## Paull65 (Jan 6, 2018)

I asked a ticket agent at NHV last week about the senior fare discount and age changes (10% and age 65) and he said that it is going to happen on 1-7-18. I did not discuss any of the other changes since someone showed up behind me so I did not want to delay them by any more questions.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


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## jis (Jan 6, 2018)

So today is 1/6/18 and the Amtrak web site still says:



> *Passenger Discount for Seniors*
> 
> *Seniors Save 15%*
> 
> ...


Let's see what it says in another 24 hours.





There isn't any mention of any upcoming change that I can find anywhere on the website as of around 11am today.


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## tomfuller (Jan 6, 2018)

"Additional restrictions may apply" . Does this mean they can change on a whim every week? I have 3 paid reservations for me and my wife that I got at a 15% discount. One is for next month and the others are

for May and early June. Do I get the extra AGR points if we pay the extra fee for Business Class?


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## jis (Jan 6, 2018)

You do get the additional TQP if you spring for BC. And of course you get the additional actual points for the higher fare paid too.


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## TiBike (Jan 6, 2018)

Amtrak might be revving up for another Sunday morning website goat rodeo update. I just checked the PDF schedules, and several new ones, effective on Monday 8 January 2018, have been posted in the last few days. Can't exactly remember the last time I checked, but I think it was a week or so ago.

There's a new Coast Starlight schedule, which seems to reflect the changes in Seattle to Portland service. Zero mention of bicycles, contrary to other updated PDF schedules, but I'll remain calm for the moment



.


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## daybeers (Jan 6, 2018)

TiBike said:


> Amtrak might be revving up for another Sunday morning website goat rodeo update. I just checked the PDF schedules, and several new ones, effective on Monday 8 January 2018, have been posted in the last few days. Can't exactly remember the last time I checked, but I think it was a week or so ago.
> 
> There's a new Coast Starlight schedule, which seems to reflect the changes in Seattle to Portland service. Zero mention of bicycles, contrary to other updated PDF schedules, but I'll remain calm for the moment
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if any other trains are going to have their schedules changed (way too many to look at on the NEC



), but the new ones for the NEC probably reflect the changes that take effect on 1/8/18 on the Alerts page: https://www.amtrak.com/service-alerts-and-notices


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## willem (Jan 6, 2018)

tomfuller said:


> "Additional restrictions may apply" .


This is one of my complaints about Amtrak and any other business who plays this silly game. It's a web site, for crying out loud! The business cannot run out of paper! If the business has restrictions, it should list them, and not enable employees who want to make up rules on the fly.

And if a business adds a restriction, it should include the effective date of the change. And the announcement date of the change.


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## Ryan (Jan 7, 2018)

Appears to be no change yet (0720 EDT)....


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## StanJazz (Jan 7, 2018)

6:35 CT Senior age is now 65+


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 7, 2018)

Disability discount is now 10% (down from 15%). I had priced a train yesterday and the price rose ~5% this morning. But I'm ok, because there a still saver fares (25%) available.

BUT, they have not updated their website to show these changes.


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## jis (Jan 7, 2018)

This is where Amtrak appears to be worse than certain third world systems that I know [emoji6]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## DoB (Jan 7, 2018)

As of now:

Attempting to cancel an existing reservation (Saver fare) on the website still offers full value applied to an eVoucher. (I didn't follow through on the cancellation, since I'll be riding this train in a few hours!)

The "Fare Options" page (https://www.amtrak.com/content/amtrak/en-us/ibcontent/seeTCdetails.html) still shows "Full value, no fees" for the eVoucher option with all fare classes.

So if this change is happening today, it clearly hasn't kicked in yet.


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## neroden (Jan 7, 2018)

Glad to hear that ThirdRail seems to be correct so far... full value to an eVoucher is all I need...


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## the_traveler (Jan 7, 2018)

If I read it right, it now says e-vouchers are now subject to the penalty also!





I hope that I read that wrong!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 7, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> If I read it right, it now says e-vouchers are now subject to the penalty also!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are you reading because the actually Refund and Exchange section still hasn't been updated. They still list the penalty at 20% whereas the Fare Options lists a 25% penalty.



jis said:


> This is where Amtrak appears to be worse than certain third world systems that I know [emoji6]
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum



Why not? I remember the Siemen's representative indicating Amtrak operated on a third world infrastructure and they had to design the engines accordingly.


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## DoB (Jan 7, 2018)

I see the Fare Options page has been updated now. The penalty is now shown as 25%, but eVouchers have no fee. Saver fares now are explicitly cancelable for a full refund within 24 hours of purchase, and the penalty applies to Value fares less than 8 days from departure.

So for those of us who were wishing for no penalty on eVouchers, this looks pretty good.


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## jis (Jan 7, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > If I read it right, it now says e-vouchers are now subject to the penalty also!
> ...


Well, if they were like the said third world system, they’d be better than what they are. That’s why not





Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Anderson (Jan 8, 2018)

I'm glad to see that they backed off on both the one-hour change policy (something which was potentially infeasible to use...I've had a few times over the years where it took that long to get through to an agent, usually during a badly-timed weather meltdown) and the fee for an e-voucher (which just seemed to be _horribly_ misguided). On some level I'm wondering if this wasn't an intentional maneuver, however...and note that they proclaimed that this applies to previously-booked tickets as well as those booked after the date of the change, which seems to be just _begging_ for a chargeback fight.

The one-hour policy, in particular, feels like it was chum: It would be absurdly restrictive compared to the rest of the industry (as a rule, at least) and might be bad enough to risk some sort of backlash at the legislative level (e.g. I could see some of the states objecting). Thinking about it, I could actually see that specific element having been dropped due to partner objections.


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## Ryan (Jan 8, 2018)

Or, yet again the rumor mill wasn’t exactly right, and this was a bunch of sound and fury about nothing.

Again.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 8, 2018)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at first glance it would seem that sleeper fares now have no full refund window whatsoever. Once you hand Amtrak $1,000+ for a sleeper ticket you've agreed to an instant $250 penalty even if your trip is nearly a year away and you immediately request a refund five minutes after purchase. If you happen to book anytime within two weeks of departure you've just agreed to an instant 100% refund penalty regardless of the circumstances or fare basis. Yes, you still have the voucher option and of course that's much better than losing your money outright, but sleeper fares are now substantially more restrictive than airline tickets when it comes to refunds. There is also the disconcerting realization that today's Amtrak is happy to change the rules for existing reservations without any prior notice or grandfathering.


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## jis (Jan 8, 2018)

Amtrak really needs to be brought under at least the few meager restrictions and passengers rights that the airlines operate under.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## roadman3313 (Jan 8, 2018)

California State Supported routes (Capitol Corridor, Pacific Surfliner, and San Joaquin) will still maintain some of the discounts under the "California Everyday Discounts" policy.

To summarize:

1. Senior Discount: Senior discount will remain at age 62 and at 15%. Select "Adult" when booking and use promo code V282.

2. Disabled Discount: Disabled discount will remain at 15%. Select "Adult" when booking and use promo code V577.

3. Student Discount: Student discount will be set at 15%. Select "Adult" when booking and use promo code V353.

For the Capitol Corridor they strongly advise booking tickets on capitolcorridor.org to be sure the discounts are applied correctly, however the promo codes are available to use on any of the California State Supported routes by booking on Amtrak.com, via 1-800-USA-RAIL, at a Quik-Trak kiosk, or at a Staffed Station. They currently are NOT available for booking on the Amtrak App at this time.

Full details on the Capitol Corridor web page:

California Everyday Discounts


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## Anderson (Jan 9, 2018)

(1) I can say that I had independent verification of the initially-posted changes (or something very close to them) from someone who I would not write down to just being "the rumor mill". They saw this a few weeks before we did but were not in a position to say anything until someone else let it out. The policy pretty clearly got revised and AmtrakLKL wasn't incorrect in what was rolled out.

(2) CA's release on that is about as close to taking a shot at Amtrak as I can see a state partner agency doing without a legislative prod. This is conjecture, but I do suspect that CA might be a candidate for having rebelled against the worst aspects of the refund policy change...and while ticket price discounts are easy to tag in the system with a code, I highly doubt that Amtrak has the ability to easily tag a fare (say, within CA) as having a variant refundability period.


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## AmtrakLKL (Jan 10, 2018)

What I originally posted is what was distributed as the new policy - I didn't mean to stir up such a commotion for nothing over the eVouchers. There were a few rounds of revision prior to roll-out and after I posted. Having been a bit busy with winter weather the past week, I'm just now getting back here on the forums. I've updated the original post to reflect the actual policy including 100% eVouchers. So glad that policy was tweaked at the last minute.


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## Ryan (Jan 10, 2018)

Appreciate the early heads up, and agree - glad that got that one right.



Anderson said:


> (1) I can say that I had independent verification of the initially-posted changes (or something very close to them) from someone who I would not write down to just being "the rumor mill".


Until they're actually published publicly, that's all they are.


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## Chey (Jan 11, 2018)

neroden said:


> Glad to hear that ThirdRail seems to be correct so far... full value to an eVoucher is all I need...


Agreed! I've used that eVoucher many times to alter the date of travel or the destination. It always comes in handy since I always want to go somewhere.


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## Anderson (Jan 12, 2018)

Ryan said:


> Appreciate the early heads up, and agree - glad that got that one right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh, no. An internally-circulated draft (e.g. what AmtrakLKL posted) or an off-the-record statement by someone at Amtrak management is definitely a step or two above something such as generic OBS chatter. It can still be changed or prove to be incorrect (typos happen, polcies change, etc.), but there are clear gradations between "wild speculation we can easily disregard" and something that is certain to happen in the stated form barring an Act of God.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 12, 2018)

Anderson said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > Appreciate the early heads up, and agree - glad that got that one right.
> ...



There are a couple of key words in your response such as "internally circulated," "draft," and "off-the-record," that underscore the issue here. While that may a step above what YOU consider wild speculations, even fact based private information can lead to wild rumors and outright misinterpretations, like the one in the LSL Michigan Reroute Rumors & Speculation.

Perhaps the lesson to learn here is wait until it is official or maybe drop a hint (cough cough) saying something like "keep an eye on the website for changes in..." because as you stated, they can make an official announcement on Monday about a policy being implemented on Friday....and something different may show up on Saturday...assuming the website works and they bother to update it!


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## Ryan (Jan 12, 2018)

^^^ perfectly stated

It isn’t a policy until it’s actually a policy. Sure, it’s better than a random OBS saying that all of the dining cars are going away forever, but it’s still just fodder for the rumor mill until something is actually implemented.


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## calwatch (Jan 13, 2018)

I had posted about this based off the LOSSAN board agenda, and it appears all California corridors followed suit. http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/71952-amtrak-ending-certain-discounts-in-2018/


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## neroden (Jan 14, 2018)

I am glad they backed off on the totally idiotic idea of charging a fee for an e-voucher. The fully exchangable ticket lives, which is important for the upper-tier traveller and the frequent traveller -- people who Amtrak really does want to keep on board.


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## Anderson (Jan 14, 2018)

Yes, but the fact-based information itself (presuming it's clear; sometimes, I'll grant that things can come out muddled...but so can official policies) is different and distinct from interpretations of said information.

Let's also not forget the official announcements regarding AGR 2.0 which didn't pan out (the "straigh" points-to-dollars conversion ratios didn't exactly happen, the points+cash option still doesn't exist, while the change/modification policy wasn't implemented as stated). That stuff was publicly-announced, it was clear(-ish...I'll grant some ambiguities that were to-be-elaborated-on), and it was official policy...until it wasn't.


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## me_little_me (Jan 14, 2018)

I know I'm old and slow but I still am not sure what it says:

You get 100% of what you paid in cash/credit as a voucher if you cancel a sleeper before travel?

You are penalized 20% of your points if you do the same?

What if you paid with a voucher?


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## jis (Jan 15, 2018)

calwatch said:


> I had posted about this based off the LOSSAN board agenda, and it appears all California corridors followed suit. http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/71952-amtrak-ending-certain-discounts-in-2018/


Information based on something that appears in a Board agenda is usually quite reliable information as of the point at which the agenda was published. It would be highly unusual, for a statutory body to publish something that is known to be false in their Board agenda.

Then again it was probably a good thing that people expressed their displeasure with the no full voucher policy that was proposed. Maybe that outburst changed some minds. We have no way of knowing for sure this way or that.


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## AmtrakLKL (Mar 18, 2018)

Here we go again! I've update the first post as well.

*The following changes are effective March 20, 2018:*

As was originally in the January changes and rescinded at the last minute, the ability to receive a full eVoucher no more.

One positive change - Sleeping car purchases did receive an increase in the no penalty window from 1 hour post-purchase to 24 hours post-purchase.

*Cancellation/Refund Fee Changes*

NOTE: If you made a reservation prior to March 20 and want to cancel after March 20, the computer will automatically apply the new policy. Agents are supposed to override the computer and apply the correct fee in effect when the reservation was originally purchased. Changes made to existing reservations on or after March 20 will bring the reservation under the new cancellation policy.

*Sleeping Car Reservations*


Cancel within 24 hours of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel at least 15 days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Cancel 14 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 75% non-refundable eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Acela First Class, Non-Acela Business Class*


Cancel prior to scheduled departure - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Reserved Coach, Acela Business Class Excluding Flexible Full Fares*


Cancel at least 8 days prior to scheduled departure - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel 7 or fewer days prior to scheduled departure - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full Refund or eVoucher
Purchase within 7 days of departure and cancel more than 1 hour after purchase - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher
Flexible Full Fares continue to offer full refund at any time.

*Advance Purchase Saver Fares*


Cancel within 24 hours of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 24 hours after purchase but prior to scheduled departure - 75% non-refundable eVoucher
Cancel after scheduled departure or no show - No Refund, No eVoucher

*Unreserved Coach Fares*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund or eVoucher
Cancel more than 1 hour after purchase - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher

*USA Rail Pass, California Rail Pass*


Cancel within 1 hour of purchase - Full refund
Rail Pass has been issued but no travel reservations have been made and no tickets have been issued - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
Rail Pass has been issued and reservations have been made:Cancel at least two days prior to first scheduled departure - 75% refund or 75% eVoucher
If tickets have been issued (these are still paper ticket reservations), all tickets and rail pass must be mailed to Amtrak Refunds for refund.
Cancel less than two days prior to first scheduled departure - No Refund, No eVoucher. Pass will be considered used.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 18, 2018)

Wow, pretty Draconian!


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 19, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Wow, pretty Draconian![emoji26]


Still better than the airlines.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## PRR 60 (Mar 19, 2018)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, pretty Draconian![emoji26]
> ...


It depends on the value of the ticket. I had first class travel on AA last fall that I had to cancel at the last minute due to a dental issue that cropped up two days before I was ready to leave. It was not serious, but it had to be fixed. I was able to cancel and store the ticket value for a future travel subject to a $200 change fee. That same situation with a same cost Amtrak sleeper would have cost me a $300 fee (25% of the ticket value of $1200).


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## tricia (Mar 19, 2018)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, pretty Draconian![emoji26]
> ...


But not better than driving, at least not for many of us, for most trips. Amtrak is becoming less and less attractive, in many ways.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 19, 2018)

tricia said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Dylan said:
> ...


In many cases it's not even better than the airlines. On a recently flown airline trip my $350 domestic flight was fully refundable until departure and 100% convertible thereafter while my next $425 sleeper compartment will be 75% refundable after 24 hours, 75% convertible at the two week mark, and worth absolutely nothing post departure.


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## me_little_me (Mar 19, 2018)

So who would take 75% voucher instead of 75% refund? [sleeper 15 days or more]


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## PVD (Mar 19, 2018)

anyone who is definitely going to travel in the near future.....


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Mar 19, 2018)

me_little_me said:


> So who would take 75% voucher instead of 75% refund? [sleeper 15 days or more]


I have canceled coach tickets before with either a full refund or voucher and chose the voucher as I knew I was going to book another train trip soon and it is immediate as well as keeping my card balance cleaner.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 19, 2018)

PVD said:


> anyone who is definitely going to travel in the near future.....


I'd still prefer the 75% refund over an identical value voucher. The refund can be spent anywhere while the voucher is only good with Amtrak. A carrier that has been shedding amenities left and right without meaningfully improving long distance service standards and quietly changes their rules with little or no grace period. In many cases the only reason we even have our 24-48 hour advance notice is because it's "leaked" on our forum. The vast majority of Amtrak customers probably won't know anything about these changes until they're already in effect, which seems like a pretty lousy way to motivate your customer base and promote future loyalty.


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## PVD (Mar 19, 2018)

Which while true does not change the fact that plenty of people don't care and if they are going to take a train in the near future still find the voucher simple.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 20, 2018)

The changes are posted, in an obscure location and not on the Refund and Cancellation page..

This Page (the Refund and Cancellation Policy page) does not reflect the changes.

This Page (Fare Options, Rules and Restrictions) does.


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## Anderson (Mar 21, 2018)

You know, maybe the d******s upstairs should give a week or two of notice on this sort of thing so they can at least get everybody on the same page.

(No, I'm not salty about this...not at all...)

Edit: While I'm thinking about it, it's sure _wonderful_ of them to roll this sort of thing out just as they're making a dog's breakfast of NYP. For needed repairs, I understand, but I don't think it is out of sorts to find them hosing ticket refundability when they're looking to make a mess of a decent little chunk of the system...

(Rolling this out the day before a major winter storm close to knocks out the NEC is also one of those brilliant moments.)


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## DoB (Mar 21, 2018)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Still better than the airlines.


Much worse than Southwest, the only airline I've flown domestically in over a decade.

Sent from my KFDOWI using Tapatalk


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## Chey (Mar 21, 2018)

tricia said:


> But not better than driving, at least not for many of us, for most trips. Amtrak is becoming less and less attractive, in many ways.


It's very disappointing. Like they're trying to lose their customers. I don't like driving but it's starting to look better to me; more convenient and the cost isn't that much worse, in some cases better even paying for restaurants and hotels. I just happen to love train travel and it's very discouraging for me to see this.


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## dlagrua (Mar 21, 2018)

When Amtrak was created fares only accounted for roughly 21% of operating cost. Today fares account for around 87% of operating cost and what happens? Fares have been continually raised,amenities cut, discounts are eliminated and cancellations cost you big time. Maybe Amtrak will be happy when we all start driving on our trips. We are certainly considering road trips again but when space aboard trains is at a premium they probably won't miss us. The plus is that will be saving money..


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## Anderson (Mar 22, 2018)

Depending on the nuances of implementation, it has struck me that the changes to the Acela fare structure have the potential to _seriously _hose the New York market. Why? All but one NYP-BOS Acela (namely, the earliest one) originates in WAS, and roughly half of the NYP-WAS Acelas originate in BOS. If tickets are, in effect, non-changable as a "no show" after the train leaves its origin, that _really_ jams the market on that service. It's actually worse, in some ways, with the Regional (since a bunch of the NYP-BOS trains originate in Virginia).

This is actually bad enough that it might force me to consider flying to Florida and driving to DC...and that has me _pissed._


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## willem (Mar 22, 2018)

Anderson said:


> If tickets are, in effect, non-changable as a "no show" after the train leaves its origin, that _really_ jams the market on that service.


Wait, what? I had assumed that everything was based on the scheduled departures from the passengers' boarding stations; it sounds like you're saying it's the trains' departures from their original stations. Which did I misunderstand?


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## jis (Mar 22, 2018)

Anderson said:


> Depending on the nuances of implementation, it has struck me that the changes to the Acela fare structure have the potential to _seriously _hose the New York market. Why? All but one NYP-BOS Acela (namely, the earliest one) originates in WAS, and roughly half of the NYP-WAS Acelas originate in BOS. If tickets are, in effect, non-changable as a "no show" after the train leaves its origin, that _really_ jams the market on that service. It's actually worse, in some ways, with the Regional (since a bunch of the NYP-BOS trains originate in Virginia).
> 
> This is actually bad enough that it might force me to consider flying to Florida and driving to DC...and that has me _pissed._


It won't hose anything, because "scheduled departure" is referring the time of departure from the station of origination of the journey of the traveler, not where the train might have originated. Let us stop letting our imagination run hog wild here.


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## PVD (Mar 22, 2018)

I also thought departure from boarding station. there is nothing in the text of the bulletin to make me think otherwise


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## neroden (Mar 23, 2018)

This is a really dumb move and someone needs to shake Amtrak's executives about it. It's going to actually reduce sleeper ticket sales. There needs to be a "flexible sleeper" price, bluntly, and there isn't in this poorly-thought-out scheme.


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## CAMISSY55 (Mar 23, 2018)

willem said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > If tickets are, in effect, non-changable as a "no show" after the train leaves its origin, that _really_ jams the market on that service.
> ...





jis said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > Depending on the nuances of implementation, it has struck me that the changes to the Acela fare structure have the potential to _seriously _hose the New York market. Why? All but one NYP-BOS Acela (namely, the earliest one) originates in WAS, and roughly half of the NYP-WAS Acelas originate in BOS. If tickets are, in effect, non-changable as a "no show" after the train leaves its origin, that _really_ jams the market on that service. It's actually worse, in some ways, with the Regional (since a bunch of the NYP-BOS trains originate in Virginia).
> ...





PVD said:


> I also thought departure from boarding station. there is nothing in the text of the bulletin to make me think otherwise


I can see where there could be confusion. When I went to the Amtrak website to read the policy, the official language does refer to the origination. So while a veteran of Amtrak travel may understand that it means the passengers origination station, not the origination of the train... I can see how someone new to Amtrak travel might be confused.
This is a cut and paste of the language for Premium Fare cancellations, but the same language is used across all classes.

Premium Fares

Class of Service: Acela First Class:

Refunds: Full refund if canceled before departure.

eVouchers Available: Full value, no fees if canceled before departure.

No Change Fee

No Show Policy: If not canceled before the scheduled departure from the origin, the ticket is forfeited and no funds can be applied toward future travel.


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## bretton88 (Mar 23, 2018)

This brings amtrak more in line with global rail practices, where you usually have a non refundable saver fare and a refundable (or sometimes just exchangeable) flexible fare. The existence of the value fare is a weird anomaly and I think adds more confusion than value.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## niemi24s (Mar 23, 2018)

bretton88 said:


> This brings amtrak more in line with global rail practices, where you usually have a non refundable saver fare and a refundable (or sometimes just exchangeable) flexible fare. The existence of the value fare is a weird anomaly and I think adds more confusion than value.


Weird anomaly? Not if you understand Amtrak's fare structuring system. There are actually 6 different coach fares. The Value fare is called the low bucket Coach fare and is usually the one that goes with any sleeper. It's the $114 shown below. The other four buckets above it rise in a geometric progression - each _roughly_ 25% higher than the one below.




The Saver Coach fare is the circled one and is the low bucket fare discounted by 20% (or is 80% of the low bucket fare or $114 X 0.80 = $91.20 ≈ $91).

The sleeper fares (upcharges) rise in a somewhat sloppy arithmetic progression with the next one _roughly_ some fixed amount above the one below.

One could probably conclude the entire Amtrak long distance fare structure was a weird anomaly!


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## Anderson (Mar 25, 2018)

Amtrak's practices aren't out of line with what you see on VIA (though even there, IIRC, you've still got a "full flex" sleeper fare), where you basically have "Escape" (Saver), the intermediate fare (Value), and the full flex fare (Flexible). One thing this _does_ trigger is a "push" towards Business Class, which is very much at odds with the pricing structure I saw in the UK.

Of course, this also in practice stands in opposition to the practices on most airlines, where _usually_ flexible/refundable fares are also variable (roughly in line with the non-refundable fares). For example, on JetBlue, the "refundable" fare is (IIRC) a pretty standardized $200 surcharge on whatever the prevailing "full" fare is. If nothing else, doing this helps to time-differentiate _some _of the full-flex crowd (e.g. you don't want them to all become time-agnostic if you can "nudge" some of them to a lower-demand train, since [for example] you'd probably just assume bump some of them away from the 5PM Acela (which will sell out or close to it) and to the 7PM Acela (which might not be anywhere near to selling out). I mean, it's fine to sell out that peak train, but all else being equal you'd probably rather fill seats on those other trains and still enable walk-up/last-minute sales if possible...especially since this is going to "push" some folks to full-flex tickets.

Edit: And of course, the fact that they're doing this without a flexible sleeper ticket did make me wonder "What, they're not able to rip enough of us for travel insurance?" I mean, c'mon...peg the flexi-sleeper one bucket up from the non-flex sleeper and I can tell you that there are some of us who will shell out for it...and I can speak to at least one other member of this board for whom this is basically a deal-breaker on LD trips.


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## willem (Mar 25, 2018)

Anderson said:


> And of course, the fact that they're doing this without a flexible sleeper ticket did make me wonder "What, they're not able to rip enough of us for travel insurance?" I mean, c'mon...peg the flexi-sleeper one bucket up from the non-flex sleeper and I can tell you that there are some of us who will shell out for it...and I can speak to at least one other member of this board for whom this is basically a deal-breaker on LD trips.


Does the insurance pay the passenger who simply decides not to take the trip for whatever reason? Or does the insurance require one from a list of qualifying reasons for not traveling?


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## niemi24s (Mar 25, 2018)

When I bought travel insurance from Travel Insured International, I asked the agent what reasons were covered under the most expensive "cancel for any reason" coverage. I was told "Oh, a bad haircut would qualify". So from that company, at least, "any reason" truly meant precisely that. Less expensive coverages have more stringent qualifying causes.


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## spinnaker (Mar 25, 2018)

The policy really should be based on availability. If there are lost of spaces open then your cancellation really didn't mean much in costing them anything. Or if they sell your spot AND the train is full, you should get 100% of your money back. If you add you need to be paid with a voucher on top of all of that then they really don't loose any money.

Amtrak really needs to be more flexible than other mods of transportation. You are already dealing with inconvenient departure / arrival times (in many cases) and restrictions on things like luggage (in many cases) . They really need to become much more friendly to passenger.


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## NorthShore (Mar 28, 2018)

So, if one wants to float value (at least on coach tickets), either make a reservation and cancel it forty five minutes later, or at least cancel it eight days in advance to preserve 100% value on a voucher?


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2018)

willem said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > And of course, the fact that they're doing this without a flexible sleeper ticket did make me wonder "What, they're not able to rip enough of us for travel insurance?" I mean, c'mon...peg the flexi-sleeper one bucket up from the non-flex sleeper and I can tell you that there are some of us who will shell out for it...and I can speak to at least one other member of this board for whom this is basically a deal-breaker on LD trips.
> ...


That is going to depend on the product...but I'd bet that the form of travel insurance that's being pushed on the Amtrak page doesn't offer this.

There _is_ "cancel for any reason" coverage out there; part of the problem is that I _think_ you have to cover the full "trip"...and the insurance gets more expensive with age, too.

(I think it's also fair to say that I resent having to do business with a third-party company in these transactions.)


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## RebelRider (Aug 20, 2018)

Hi everyone, first post here. The Refund and Cancellation policy is being "enhanced" again. The R&C page on Amtrak.com added the following line:

*"If your travel plans change and you do not modify or cancel your reservation before departure and then do not board your train, your entire reservation will be canceled and any remaining funds will be forfeited. Effective August 21, 2018 this policy applies to all types of tickets; including Flex fares."*

Looking at the details under Flexible Fares it still states Flex Fares are refundable after departure. Further, the Guide to Fares page has not changed at all and still says Flex Fares are always refundable.





The question is how this affects later travel in the reservation. As I understand now, a no-show will forfeit the funds of that segment. Future travel will cancel with those "funds" turning into an eVoucher. This new language seems to indicate ALL funds in the reservation will forfeit. Sounds just like an airline we all know...


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## cpotisch (Aug 20, 2018)

willem said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> > And of course, the fact that they're doing this without a flexible sleeper ticket did make me wonder "What, they're not able to rip enough of us for travel insurance?" I mean, c'mon...peg the flexi-sleeper one bucket up from the non-flex sleeper and I can tell you that there are some of us who will shell out for it...and I can speak to at least one other member of this board for whom this is basically a deal-breaker on LD trips.
> ...


It has to be a qualifying circumstance. Usually if you’re too sick to travel, have some kind of emergency, lost your job and can’t afford the ticket, etc. That travel insurance is incredibly limited, which is why we don’t get it anymore.


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