# 16 year old riding alone



## Jake (Aug 29, 2012)

Hey you guys, this is my first time riding the Amtrak trains and I would like to know if I bought the ticket from the Amtrak app, do I just show them my e-ticket ( or whatever it's called) or do I need a physical ticket? Also do I need ID? I don't have my Liscence nor permit ( dumb move I know) but I do have my social security card and a debit card if that would help? Thanks, Jake


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

Jake,

No, you don't need a physical ticket anymore as long as your doing a train only. Some bus connections still require tickets.

And yes, you do need some form of picture ID in case you get asked for it. Do you have a school ID? That would be valid as ID if it has a photo.

As for the forms you've mentioned, technically no, they are not valid. But you may get a conductor who will let you slide, assuming that you're one of the people selected for the random ID check.


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## PerRock (Aug 29, 2012)

Here is the Amtrak page on ID's. If your 16 it looks like you don't need an ID (but it's good to have one anyways)

http://www.amtrak.com/passenger-identification

You didn't state where your boarding from, some stations have special procedures. But for any small station you can just show your eTicket on you app. You should also get a pdf in your email you can show them instead.

peter


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## Jake (Aug 29, 2012)

Thanks a lot both of you, but I have one more question. I'm am going from Waterbury Vermont to Penn station in new York, then from penn station to fort Myers Florida. When I arrive in NY should I just buy the ticket there or just do the same ( buy from the app)? If I do buy it at the station will the ticket person ask for ID?


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## EB_OBS (Aug 29, 2012)

PerRock said:


> Here is the Amtrak page on ID's. If your 16 it looks like you don't need an ID (but it's good to have one anyways)
> 
> http://www.amtrak.com/passenger-identification
> 
> ...



You need to read the policy you linked to a little closer. Yes he does need a valid picture ID.



> Please note that unaccompanied children 15 and older must also produce valid photo ID when purchasing tickets.


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## Jake (Aug 29, 2012)

@EB_OBS It says that about purchasing at the station, if I bought the ticket already I don't think that matters then


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## Jake (Aug 29, 2012)

EB_OBS said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the Amtrak page on ID's. If your 16 it looks like you don't need an ID (but it's good to have one anyways)
> ...


Sorry man totally contradicted myself from that last post


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

Jake said:


> Thanks a lot both of you, but I have one more question. I'm am going from Waterbury Vermont to Penn station in new York, then from penn station to fort Myers Florida. When I arrive in NY should I just buy the ticket there or just do the same ( buy from the app)?


You should buy that ticket as soon as possible. It can be brought online, at a Quik-Trak, via the App, or from an agent phone or in person. Since Fort Meyers does require a bus ride, I suspect that will trigger actual tickets for both the train out of NY and the bus. Only a few buses can currently accept eTickets.



Jake said:


> If I do buy it at the station will the ticket person ask for ID?


Yes!

But you could buy the ticket and pick it up at a Quik-Trak machine.


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## AlanB (Aug 29, 2012)

Jake said:


> EB_OBS said:
> 
> 
> > PerRock said:
> ...


Please understand that without regard to how you buy the ticket, nor whether it is an eTicket or a real paper ticket, the conductor is still required to conduct random ID checks on board the trains. If your number comes up, you'll need to have ID.


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## Kenneth (Aug 29, 2012)

If your State does this, you could get a State issued ID card.


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## SubwayNut (Aug 29, 2012)

ID checks have also gotten more common now in the world of eTicking. The iPhone will now scream that an ID check is required. The one time it happened to me a few weeks ago on the Springfled Shutte (middle segment of a 3 segment trip) the conductor apologized as I grabbed my ID saying he hates the fact he now needs to ask people for IDs.

Just show your school ID, I bet you'll be fine as long as it has your DOB on it.

In terms of not having one, coming from someone who went cross-country alone at age 16 in 2006 with plenty of trips alone to Syracuse and New York before that I didn't worry about not having an ID and was just never asked for one, always just used QuikTrack machines for ticketing.

On my cross country trip I used my passport and do remember the ticket agent in little Vancouver, WA looking at it.

Might you have a passport? That would definately be valid.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 30, 2012)

Jake said:


> @EB_OBS It says that about purchasing at the station, if I bought the ticket already I don't think that matters then


Buy the ticket online. Why not? Purchasing at the station is not very good in the mess of NYP.


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## EB_OBS (Aug 30, 2012)

Jake said:


> @EB_OBS It says that about purchasing at the station, if I bought the ticket already I don't think that matters then



Yeah it looks as if there's a hole in the system. Amtrak policy is that you must show ID when purchasing tickets if you are 15, 16 or 17 and traveling unaccompanied. I'm surprised, if you put your age in properly, that you can purchase tickets online and pick them up at Quik-Trax or print eTickets at all.

Regardless though, as mentioned already, the conductors must do random ID checks and the EMD ques the conductor when to ask for ID. If your number comes up, then you must have ID.


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## SP&S (Aug 30, 2012)

Jake said:


> I do have my social security card and a debit card if that would help


Getting slightly off topic. Jake, with the possible exception of a new job or new account at a new bank, you should NEVER carry your social security card. It's not valid for ID and should you loose your wallet that number is very valuable to an identity thief.


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## DesertRat (Aug 30, 2012)

What he said. Don't carry that SSN with you!!


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## FunNut (Aug 30, 2012)

Do go and get a state photo ID, right away. Anytime you travel you need this. Also, in your wallet, carry emergency information for your family at home and the people you're visiting in FL. In case something happens to you, they will be able to be contacted.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 31, 2012)

FunNut said:


> Do go and get a state photo ID, right away. Anytime you travel you need this. Also, in your wallet, carry emergency information for your family at home and the people you're visiting in FL. In case something happens to you, they will be able to be contacted.


Yup - get some official state picture ID - on the train you may be able to get by with a school lunchroom id or a library card ( a library card implies a better credit rating than a lot of us have ) or whatever -- Soc Sec card better left at home - might do in a pinch but see above --

Best - get your state ID or DL - AND - a passport - yeah a passport costs and doesn't work for some local uses - but if you ever go cross-border or lose your local ID it really helps a lot to have one, especially if you have a short-time local history with your other ID.

What all these ID cards are worth for security -- no comment - theoretical security discussion belongs totally elsewhere - maybe Blog of a true expert

Practically - just get the cards you need to go -- no problemo. Or take your chances - might well work -- hope it does - but- could have problem - don't know consequences - .

Take care and happy travelling.


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## SarahZ (Aug 31, 2012)

Kenneth said:


> If your State does this, you could get a State issued ID card.


Vermont does, if that is indeed where the OP resides. I'm just basing that off of his departure station.

More info here: http://dmv.vermont.gov/licenses/drivers/non-driver. They cost $20.

I hope that helps!


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## leemell (Aug 31, 2012)

Jake said:


> Hey you guys, this is my first time riding the Amtrak trains and I would like to know if I bought the ticket from the Amtrak app, do I just show them my e-ticket ( or whatever it's called) or do I need a physical ticket? Also do I need ID? I don't have my Liscence nor permit ( dumb move I know) but I do have my social security card and a debit card if that would help? Thanks, Jake


Your SSC card says right on it "not for ID". Plus everyone else is right, it is not smart to carry.


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 31, 2012)

I've only taken two rides since e-ticketing went national, but I definately did notice a huge jump (from basically never) in the number of people who were having their IDs checked. Additionally, since you are not that far removed from thee restriction for traveling alone on Amtrak, I think you could get asked for your ID as a way to check your age. Get a legal photo ID and save the worry - or worse!


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## PRR 60 (Aug 31, 2012)

The Davy Crockett said:


> I've only taken two rides since e-ticketing went national, but I definately did notice a huge jump (from basically never) in the number of people who were having their IDs checked. Additionally, since you are not that far removed from thee restriction for traveling alone on Amtrak, I think you could get asked for your ID as a way to check your age. Get a legal photo ID and save the worry - or worse!


According to Amtrak, if you are under 18 you do not need a photo ID on board. However, to prove you are under 18 and don't need a photo ID, you need a photo ID? Kind of a Catch 22, is it not?

By the way, persons under 18 do not need a photo ID for air travel. Amtrak is more restrictive? Interesting.


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## George Harris (Aug 31, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> The Davy Crockett said:
> 
> 
> > I've only taken two rides since e-ticketing went national, but I definately did notice a huge jump (from basically never) in the number of people who were having their IDs checked. Additionally, since you are not that far removed from thee restriction for traveling alone on Amtrak, I think you could get asked for your ID as a way to check your age. Get a legal photo ID and save the worry - or worse!
> ...


I have forgotten both his exact age or what the requiremetn was, but on one of our flights around in the US we were caught up in a random ID check, and they asked one of my teenage sons for his ID. He stated that he was whatever his age was and it was younger than that required to have ID, so they simply waved him through!! We were all, and him particularly struck by the illogic of that. He could have proven his ID if they had insisted, as he had a passport, but he did not show it.


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## Nathanael (Sep 3, 2012)

Oy. The ID thing is apparently (reading between the lines in the various reports) Amtrak's concession to the TSA, which has an irrational desire to know exactly who is on every train at all times. Obviously it has nothing to do with security. But whatever, fixing the "papers please" culture is beyond Amtrak's capability...

...I would say, get a passport if you can possibly afford it! It's the only ID which will reliably let you out of the country...


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## PerRock (Sep 3, 2012)

Nathanael said:


> Oy. The ID thing is apparently (reading between the lines in the various reports) Amtrak's concession to the TSA, which has an irrational desire to know exactly who is on every train at all times. Obviously it has nothing to do with security. But whatever, fixing the "papers please" culture is beyond Amtrak's capability...
> 
> ...I would say, get a passport if you can possibly afford it! It's the only ID which will reliably let you out of the country...


Actually a passport will only reliably let you back into the country. All a passport really tells another country is that you are a citizen of the country you're holding a passport in. To get into another country you need proof of citizenship and a visa (even for Canada, they give you one at the border for most people)

Peter

Peter


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## Trogdor (Sep 3, 2012)

PRR 60 said:


> According to Amtrak, if you are under 18 you do not need a photo ID on board. However, to prove you are under 18 and don't need a photo ID, you need a photo ID? Kind of a Catch 22, is it not?
> 
> By the way, persons under 18 do not need a photo ID for air travel. Amtrak is more restrictive? Interesting.


How is Amtrak "more restrictive" by having the same policy?


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## AlanB (Sep 3, 2012)

PerRock said:


> To get into another country you need proof of citizenship and a visa (even for Canada, they give you one at the border for most people)


If you're a US citizen, you don't need a Visa to get into Canada. They're perfectly happy with Mastercard, Amex, or even cash. :lol:

But seriously, most Canadian border officers would look at you rather strangely if you handed them a US Passport and asked for a stamp in the passport, much less a Visa. And for those crossing with an Enhanced Drivers License or a Passport card, neither a stamp nor a Visa is a possibility.


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## NW cannonball (Sep 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > To get into another country you need proof of citizenship and a visa (even for Canada, they give you one at the border for most people)
> ...


But you do need your passport or enhanced DL to get back into the States? Yes?


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## AlanB (Sep 4, 2012)

NW cannonball said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > PerRock said:
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Yes.


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## PRR 60 (Sep 4, 2012)

Trogdor said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > According to Amtrak, if you are under 18 you do not need a photo ID on board. However, to prove you are under 18 and don't need a photo ID, you need a photo ID? Kind of a Catch 22, is it not?
> ...


For those over age 15, Amtrak requires a photo ID to purchase a ticket (but not on board).



> Please note that unaccompanied children 15 and older must also produce valid photo ID when purchasing tickets.


Air travel requires ID for those 18 and older. To be fair, with e-tickets, it not necessary to use a ticket agent, so the need to show a Photo ID at the ticket window is now rare.


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## PerRock (Sep 4, 2012)

AlanB said:


> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> > To get into another country you need proof of citizenship and a visa (even for Canada, they give you one at the border for most people)
> ...


Your still getting a Visa, it's just not the full-out paper thing they stick in your physical passport. Now a days it's an electronic thing they stick on your record.

peter


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## Trogdor (Sep 4, 2012)

Just to nitpick, but a Visa is a credit card, whereas a visa (lower case v) is authorization to enter a foreign country.


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## AlanB (Sep 4, 2012)

PerRock said:


> AlanB said:
> 
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> > PerRock said:
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I quote from the CBSA website:



> When you enter Canada, a CBSA officer may ask to see your passport and a valid visa, if one is necessary.


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## Demetrius (Aug 1, 2014)

**** NOTE THAT THIS THREAD AND THE PRIOR POSTS ARE 2 YEARS OLD ****

Im 16 years old but I dont have any type of ID and i need to get to michigan would I be Able To Ride A Train By Myself To Michigan


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 2, 2014)

Demetrius said:


> Im 16 years old but I dont have any type of ID and i need to get to michigan would I be Able To Ride A Train By Myself To Michigan


You probably need school ID. Everything needs ID these days, _every _mode of transport needs ID or credit card. Other than a private vehicle. (car, private plane, motorhome, etc.)


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## The Davy Crockett (Aug 2, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Everything needs ID these days, _every _mode of transport needs ID or credit card. Other than a private vehicle. (car, private plane, motorhome, etc.)


Ummm...

If one is driving/piloting, etc., one needs an ID.

Its called a driver's/pilot's, etc. license!


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 2, 2014)

The Davy Crockett said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Everything needs ID these days, _every _mode of transport needs ID or credit card. Other than a private vehicle. (car, private plane, motorhome, etc.)
> ...


True, but a lot of people don't bring it when driving a car, and still don't get caught.


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## Steve4031 (Aug 2, 2014)

It's possible to take a trip and not be asked for an ID. If you use a credit card and purchase online or at a quick track you will not need an id to obtain your ticket. At Chicago they sometimes do id and ticket checks before allowing passengers on the train. I have not seen id checks in awhile.

I am almost always asked for an id at the ticket window.

Sometimes a conductor might ask for it on board.

It's best to at least bring a school id.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 2, 2014)

Steve4031 said:


> It's possible to take a trip and not be asked for an ID. If you use a credit card and purchase online or at a quick track you will not need an id to obtain your ticket. At Chicago they sometimes do id and ticket checks before allowing passengers on the train. I have not seen id checks in awhile.
> 
> I am almost always asked for an id at the ticket window.
> 
> ...


Well yeah, ID or credit card sometimes turns into one or the other. But if you print your ticket at home, then you need ID when you board, to confirm that it is indeed your ticket. That's because the tickets don't say the credit card number.


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## HAL (Aug 2, 2014)

Demetrius said:


> **** NOTE THAT THIS THREAD AND THE PRIOR POSTS ARE 2 YEARS OLD ****
> 
> Im 16 years old but I dont have any type of ID and i need to get to michigan would I be Able To Ride A Train By Myself To Michigan


You need a valid photo ID to purchase a ticket at a station or onboard.


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## HAL (Aug 2, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > It's possible to take a trip and not be asked for an ID. If you use a credit card and purchase online or at a quick track you will not need an id to obtain your ticket. At Chicago they sometimes do id and ticket checks before allowing passengers on the train. I have not seen id checks in awhile.
> ...


No, you don't need to show ID when you board if you print your ticket at home.

Onboard there is a random ID check. That was mandated by the TSA. The random ID check was a compromise. The TSA wanted all ID checked. Amtrak was able to get that changed to the random check. When the security alert level is low that means about 10% are supposed to be randomly checked.


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 2, 2014)

HAL said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > Steve4031 said:
> ...


The TSA was right. They should 100% of passengers' ID.


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## AmtrakBlue (Aug 2, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> > It's possible to take a trip and not be asked for an ID. If you use a credit card and purchase online or at a quick track you will not need an id to obtain your ticket. At Chicago they sometimes do id and ticket checks before allowing passengers on the train. I have not seen id checks in awhile.
> ...


I buy my tickets online and have yet been asked for my ID.


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## HAL (Aug 2, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The TSA was right. They should 100% of passengers' ID.


The TSA was wrong. There should not be any ID check! ID checks won't stop any terrorist.


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## Ryan (Aug 2, 2014)

That's another solution without a problem


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## Swadian Hardcore (Aug 2, 2014)

HAL said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > The TSA was right. They should 100% of passengers' ID.
> ...


It'll stop drug traffickers and illegal immigrants.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 2, 2014)

Right. As Ryan said, a solution looking for a problem, Swad.


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## HAL (Aug 2, 2014)

Swadian Hardcore said:


> HAL said:
> 
> 
> > Swadian Hardcore said:
> ...


How will it stop drug traffickers? You think they won't have ID? LOL

How will it stop illegal immigrants? All that is required is government or school issued photo ID. You can present a Mexican drivers license, an Austrailian drivers license or an Iranian passport. No way to know if that passenger is a tourist, an illegal or a visitor.


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## HAL (Aug 2, 2014)

HAL said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> > HAL said:
> ...


The last word was meant to be or a terrorist. Replace visitor with terrorist.


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## Ryan (Aug 2, 2014)

That still won't help anything.


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## Acela150 (Aug 2, 2014)

I'm ok with being carded if I'm picking up a ticket, or purchasing. Last time I was at the CA in BOS and when I showed my ID the attendant was able to print my ticket. IMO that was easier then giving a Ressy number.


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## neroden (Aug 3, 2014)

The TSA is completely nuts about ID checks (which are utterly useless garbage), but we haven't managed to get this mistaken conflation of "ID" with "security" out of people's heads yet.

Hint for those who still don't get it: the most dangerous Soviet spies the US ever faced had CIA-issued and FBI-issued IDs. ID checks are a solution looking for a problem.


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## HAL (Aug 3, 2014)

neroden said:


> The TSA is completely nuts about ID checks (which are utterly useless garbage), but we haven't managed to get this mistaken conflation of "ID" with "security" out of people's heads yet.
> 
> Hint for those who still don't get it: the most dangerous Soviet spies the US ever faced had CIA-issued and FBI-issued IDs. ID checks are a solution looking for a problem.


Security is "See Something, Say Something", not ID checks.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 3, 2014)

It also involves not responding to Say Something in a way that makes people feel like an idiot when it turns out to be a false alarm.


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## Eris (Aug 3, 2014)

So, in any case, regarding the actual question asked in the original post two years ago as well as the new post yesterday, Amtrak's ID requirements are pretty clear:

http://www.amtrak.com/passenger-identification



> Amtrak customers 18 years of age and older must produce valid photo identification when:
> Obtaining, exchanging or refunding tickets
> Storing baggage at stations
> Checking baggage
> ...


(My link goes on to describe exactly what acceptable ID for those 18+ might consist of).

A 16 year old who has managed to purchase and print/save a ticket and is not checking baggage does not need to carry or show photo ID.

That I or anyone might recommend having ID (and I and others do recommend that) is irrelevant to the lack of requirement to have it for a 16 or 17 year old while traveling alone or accompanied on Amtrak.


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## VentureForth (Aug 4, 2014)

I was sitting in the Savannah station the other day and the station agents were very clear to every passenger to have their ticket and ID out for inspection while boarding the train.

I don't think that ID checks are so much to prevent a bomb, but to ensure that the conductor's manifest is accurate.


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## Ispolkom (Aug 4, 2014)

At the Minot station, on the other hand, I didn't show ID or ticket when I boarded my train. I just told the SCA, "We're the Ispolkoms. We're in bedroom E." Couldn't be easier.


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## crescent2 (Aug 4, 2014)

To the teen traveler: I'm a better-safe-than-sorry type, so I would suggest you bring your school ID, if you have one, or birth certificate, although you probably won't be asked for it.

My friend and I were asked to show our ID at least once on our recent trip, but I don't recall where. IIRC this was the first time I've ever had to show ID on Amtrak. Showing my ID is not a problem for me and I don't understand why anyone would mind doing so. Tickets already have names on them, so no big deal imo.

Interestingly to us, the attendant who stored our luggage for the day in Chicago said that plans are in the works for adding additional security checks. I don't know if this is just for Chicago or system wide. He said that about 20% (?!) of passengers going through CHI are carrying drugs or drug money, and that several times bags or suitcases of money have been abandoned in the station because "drug runners recognize DEA even in plain clothes." Being small town girls, my friend and I found those numbers surprising, but what do we know. We did see several officers with drug dogs walking around in different areas of the station. The attendant was talking with the man ahead of us in line, not to us, so we did not ask him any questions.

My friend was pleasantly surprised that boarding Amtrak was as easy as it was.


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## neroden (Aug 4, 2014)

VentureForth said:


> I was sitting in the Savannah station the other day and the station agents were very clear to every passenger to have their ticket and ID out for inspection while boarding the train.
> 
> I don't think that ID checks are so much to prevent a bomb, but to ensure that the conductor's manifest is accurate.


The NTSB really wants to know who's on a train in case it crashes; they've made that very clear. This is kind of dopey, but there you are.


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## neroden (Aug 4, 2014)

crescent2 said:


> To the teen traveler: I'm a better-safe-than-sorry type, so I would suggest you bring your school ID, if you have one, or birth certificate, although you probably won't be asked for it.
> 
> My friend and I were asked to show our ID at least once on our recent trip, but I don't recall where. IIRC this was the first time I've ever had to show ID on Amtrak. Showing my ID is not a problem for me and I don't understand why anyone would mind doing so.


Government-issued ID can be difficult or expensive to get for many people. Particularly if anything has happened to the county office which issued their birth certificate -- or if they never had a birth certificate.

ID requirements basically punish people whose records were lost by previous governments. That's the problem.


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## neroden (Aug 4, 2014)

crescent2 said:


> Interestingly to us, the attendant who stored our luggage for the day in Chicago said that plans are in the works for adding additional security checks. I don't know if this is just for Chicago or system wide. He said that about 20% (?!) of passengers going through CHI are carrying drugs or drug money, and that several times bags or suitcases of money have been abandoned in the station because "drug runners recognize DEA even in plain clothes."


*sigh* Hopefully we'll legalize drugs soon and get rid of this utter nonsense. Nothing wrong with carrying merchandise or cash on the train, just as long as the stuff isn't being used on the train.


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## crescent2 (Aug 4, 2014)

neroden said:


> crescent2 said:
> 
> 
> > To the teen traveler: I'm a better-safe-than-sorry type, so I would suggest you bring your school ID, if you have one, or birth certificate, although you probably won't be asked for it.
> ...


I'm not sure I personally know any adult who doesn't have an ID, or at least I've never heard anyone complain. The examples you give are exceptions. Most people's birth records aren't lost and most people already have a birth certificate or could easily obtain a copy. I don't think ID is that hard or expensive to get in my state but I haven't checked the requirements. Regardless, I don't know how adults function without an ID in today's world. I have to show my ID to go to a doctor, vote, and sometimes when writing a check, as examples. And I have no problem with any of those. I'm not trying to use another person's insurance or medical records, I'm not trying to commit voter fraud, and I'm not forging a check. But some people might, and do, so there you go. Showing ID is just not a big deal to me.

I also had to be fingerprinted and background checked to obtain a teaching certificate, and I had no problem with that, either. I even had to provide references and consent to a background check to volunteer in one of my own church's youth programs, despite my valid teaching certificate. Still no big deal.

I understand the need for these things because unfortunately there are some dishonest, and worse, people in the world. And yes, I understand that some people obtain fake IDs and/or beat the system, but most people don't. Just my take on it, and YMMV as they say.

Edit to add: In major Amtrak crashes, ascertaining the number and identity of passengers has been a big problem and rectifying that a recommendation of the NTSB. If checking ID helps with that, it can save lives. It's important to have a correct manifest, and I think VF may be right that that's the primary reason for the ID checks on Amtrak.


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## neroden (Aug 4, 2014)

IDs don't prove anything much. First, they're a bad method of verifying identity. (Apart from fake IDs, and the fact that people change both their names and their appearances, there's the famous example of the CIA official who walked in and out of Langley for years with a photo of his dog on his ID.)

Second, verifying identity is usually not what you're actually trying to do.

Drivers' licenses are designed to demonstrate that a particular person (found driving a car) has passed a driving exam. This makes sense, and a card with a photo and an ID number (which can be looked up in the state database) can actually be used for this purpose.

Most uses of ID don't make sense. And checking ID on Amtrak is in that category; it doesn't make sense. It's not addressing any actual problem, it's just creating problems. If there were a big issue with people fraudulently presenting other people's tickets, then ID might be useful to address that. There isn't.

ID is great for verifying that you have someone who is certified by the government to go by the name of Mr. Aldrich Ames. But why do you care? It's not remotely useful for telling whether you actually have to worry about Mr. Aldrich Ames.


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## Ryan (Aug 4, 2014)

You also great overestimate the ease with which you can get an ID.

Sure, it's easy for you and your friends.

It's nowhere near that easy for someone working two jobs, no car and and hour long bus ride to get to an ID card office during working hours.

Want to require IDs every where? Sure, no problem. Don't know what problem you'll solve with them, but if that's your thing, go for it.

Just make sure that it's easy for *everyone* to actually get an ID before you do it.


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## jebr (Aug 4, 2014)

crescent2 said:


> He said that about 20% (?!) of passengers going through CHI are carrying drugs or drug money, and that several times bags or suitcases of money have been abandoned in the station because "drug runners recognize DEA even in plain clothes." Being small town girls, my friend and I found those numbers surprising, but what do we know.


Those numbers don't even pass the smell test. If there were 20% of people smuggling drugs/drug money, they'd be checking every train that came into and left Chicago, because 20% would be an insanely high number. The attendant seems to be mistaken.

Unless, I suppose, they're counting legal drugs as "drugs," though then the number seems too low.


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## Ryan (Aug 4, 2014)

Yeah, that seems ridiculously high to me as well.

I've also never had to show ID at the doctors, either.


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## crescent2 (Aug 4, 2014)

Ryan, I'm not wanting to "require IDs everywhere." I'm just saying that having to show my ID on my recent Amtrak trip is no big deal to me, nor are the other times I'm required to show it. For the three examples I gave, the purpose is to ascertain that I'm the person I claim to be, and Aldrich Ames notwithstanding, for the ordinary person a picture ID usually accomplishes that and serves a legitimate purpose as long as there are dishonest people in the world.

Things that inconvenience me don't get under my skin as long as I can see even a bit of the reasoning behind them. I don't even have to always agree with them. I guess I'm just an easy going type most of the time.

If it's true that it's extremely difficult to obtain ID, then changes need to be made to the procedure for that. Fix what needs fixing.

Ryan, for several years I've had to show ID at the doctor's office, and at every hospital and rehab facility (quite a few) that my husband was in the past few years I had to let them copy his photo ID along with his insurance cards. Obviously it's different for you.

As I said, this isn't a big deal to me one way or the other, so I'm done.

Jebr-- That's what we thought, too. I'm just reporting what he said, nothing more. That's what made it so interesting.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 4, 2014)

The secret to effectively installing a fascist or police state governed is to slowly require more checks and burdens upon the citizenship that are "no big deal".

Any more of this poppycock and I'm moving to the homeland.


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## Bob Dylan (Aug 5, 2014)

Favorite demand from Police State Officials:"Papers please!"

Just remember All of the 911 Terrorist High Jackers had Official Government ID and Visas and were known to the FBI and various Intelligence Agencies! How did that work out?

Conservatives used to be against the carrying of Government IDs, now they

Want everyone to have them for everything! Someone please help me understand how this makes us safer???


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## crescent2 (Aug 5, 2014)

OK, I said I was done, but the tomatoes coming through my screen are splattering my shirt.  This isn't about ID's actually; it's about reprimanding me for things I didn't say.

If these posts are intended for me (apparently, as I'm the poster previous to them), once again I'm not advocating "papers" and ID's for everything. I just said I had no problem showing my ID on Amtrak (the topic of the thread), or pulling out my drivers license to show I'm me (so I don't receive the meds meant for the other person with my name, or whatever). And, btw, the doctor, hospital, and retailer taking my check and wanting to see my ID aren't any type of government.

When some of you get a bee in your bonnet, it seems to negatively affect your reading comprehension.

Where did I say that showing an ID keeps anyone safe from terrorists?? I agree with you on that. Stop putting words in my mouth; heaven knows I'm wordy enough on my own! If I went to the trouble of planning to commit terrorism, I'd probably have a fake ID or just not care, period.

I really am done this time. Pretend I said whatever you want to and have at it.


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## BCL (Aug 5, 2014)

Birth records are a lousy means of proving identity. It's sort of a chicken and egg thing. In some states is possible for anyone to get an official, unrestricted copy of a birth record. It used to be possible in California, but there were documented cases of people who went to get a random record and used the birth certificate to assume a new identity. Birth certificates are still public records in California, but one must demonstrate belonging to a certain class in order to get an unrestricted one. The ones still available to anyone are labeled as "informational" such that they can't be used to establish identity. Then there was the mess that was Puerto Rico's birth certificate crisis. The situation got so bad that the territory invalidated any certificate issued before a certain date and only ones issued after that date were valid. The basic idea was that the practices that allowed such rampant fraud to happen (schools and others requiring that a full copy of a birth certificate be kept on file for every participant) were no longer allowed. Many schools were targeted for burglary, where the only items stolen were the birth certificates on file. These were then sold on the black market, where the Hispanic names were quite useful for for illegal immigrants from Latin America to establish a new life as a US citizen and a back story of why they have an accent or don't speak much English.

Quite a few people don't have photo ID. It used to be possible to bank with only a credit card/SSN card, and utility bill. Quite a few people established jobs before there was an I-9 requirement. Many retired people have given up driving and no longer have a photo ID. They may still get their pension or SS income via direct deposit and deal with only ATM cards or personal checks. It may seem strange, but it's very much possible to function in this country without a photo ID.

And one of the odder details is that a lot of people have ended up turning in their driver licenses because they were suspended, have no other form of photo ID, and don't bother to get a non-DL photo ID.

It's actually possible to pass I-9 employment eligibility without a photo ID. It can be done with a voter registration card (most don't have a photo) and a birth certificate or SSN card.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 5, 2014)

crescent2 said:


> OK, I said I was done, but the tomatoes coming through my screen are splattering my shirt.  This isn't about ID's actually; it's about reprimanding me for things I didn't say.
> 
> If these posts are intended for me (apparently, as I'm the poster previous to them), once again I'm not advocating "papers" and ID's for everything. I just said I had no problem showing my ID on Amtrak (the topic of the thread), or pulling out my drivers license to show I'm me (so I don't receive the meds meant for the other person with my name, or whatever). And, btw, the doctor, hospital, and retailer taking my check and wanting to see my ID aren't any type of government.
> 
> ...


Not to worry -- posters often mix up the upthread posts and answer more than one without attribution, or with misleading quotes.

I am pretty sure you only said that you haven't been hassled my the more or less reasonable requests for photo ID that you've gotten.

Me neither --

But when the front desk at my dentist's office asks me for photo ID for the third time in 3 months, and I've been visiting the same dentist for 25 years - I do get a bit snarky -- I say "You think someone might be impersonating me to get a "root canal" --"

Any how crescent2 -- I don't think you said some of the dumb things that it seems to you that people here think you think.

Does that make sense? -- Dunno.

As for the value of "photo ID" in general -- there will be some discussion -- most of it on serious security-oriented discussion places - not likely here.

But I might join in on the techy aspects. And I won't cite you.


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## NW cannonball (Aug 5, 2014)

Jake said:


> Hey you guys, this is my first time riding the Amtrak trains and I would like to know if I bought the ticket from the Amtrak app, do I just show them my e-ticket ( or whatever it's called) or do I need a physical ticket? Also do I need ID? I don't have my Liscence nor permit ( dumb move I know) but I do have my social security card and a debit card if that would help? Thanks, Jake


It's been a week since you posted - lots of replies and internal debates about ID rules and such -- if you've followed all that (unlikely) the bottom line is --

You have the e-ticket scannable thing - right?

You can ride - the train conductor scans it - you get on board. No problem.

IF (very unlikely) you are asked for ID on the train -- just show what you have - the e-ticket SS card etc -- a school ID or a library card (yup a library card may be governmet-issued (or or least quango-issued)).

The worst they can do us put you off the train at your destination.


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## Ryan (Aug 5, 2014)

Nobody is putting words in your mouth. Nobody is claiming that you've said things you haven't. If a part of a post doesn't address something you've said, than it likely isn't addressed to you. 

My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks.


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## neroden (Aug 5, 2014)

crescent2 said:


> Edit to add: In major Amtrak crashes, ascertaining the number and identity of passengers has been a big problem and rectifying that a recommendation of the NTSB. If checking ID helps with that, it can save lives.


It doesn't really help with that, either. It helps a little bit with assauging the emotional upset of the rescuers and family members who don't *know* whether there were additional people on the train or not, by giving them a false sense of certainty.
It doesn't save lives, though. I suppose it could save the life of a rescuer if it prevented a rescuer from going into a dangerous area to search for people who may be missing based on "everyone being accounted for"; even that is unlikely, as some people will always just walk away from the crash without telling anyone where they're going. But ID madness could equally well leave someone to die because they were mistakenly thought to not be on the train based on an over-reliance on manifests.

As usual, ID is a solution looking for a problem. I'm not sure why the NTSB has been so obsessed with it. Accountant's mentality, I guess.


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## JayPea (Aug 5, 2014)

This past February when my drivers' license expired I wanted to apply for an enhanced driver's license. In order to do so I had to have amongst other things a state-issued birth certificate. They didn't accept the one I have that was issued by the hospital. So I had to shell out 32 bucks for an official one. Turns out my name on the state issued certificate was spelled differently than what was on the one from the hospital. No wonder I'm perpetually befuddled; for 54 years I'd been going by the wrong name! :wacko: Since I'd been going by what was spelled on the hospital certificate I just filed for a change of name on the state certificate. And in order to do THAT I needed two more forms of ID, only one of which I had. I finally got a print out from my county's elections board showing I'm a registered voter in lieu of a voter registration card. I washed my card through the washing machine eons ago and don't need one as Washington is vote by mail. All this hassle so I can get into Canada and ride the Canadian some time. I hope it's worth it!


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## CaliforniaMom (Aug 5, 2014)

Kaiser requires ID even for routine doctor appts. It's one way to crack down on membership fraud.


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## BCL (Aug 5, 2014)

JayPea said:


> This past February when my drivers' license expired I wanted to apply for an enhanced driver's license. In order to do so I had to have amongst other things a state-issued birth certificate. They didn't accept the one I have that was issued by the hospital. So I had to shell out 32 bucks for an official one. Turns out my name on the state issued certificate was spelled differently than what was on the one from the hospital. No wonder I'm perpetually befuddled; for 54 years I'd been going by the wrong name! :wacko: Since I'd been going by what was spelled on the hospital certificate I just filed for a change of name on the state certificate. And in order to do THAT I needed two more forms of ID, only one of which I had. I finally got a print out from my county's elections board showing I'm a registered voter in lieu of a voter registration card. I washed my card through the washing machine eons ago and don't need one as Washington is vote by mail. All this hassle so I can get into Canada and ride the Canadian some time. I hope it's worth it!


I'm a birth certificate geek. I got one for my kid from every possible agency; each agency scanned the original as it changed hands up the chain of command. However, at this point the only "hospital birth certificates" are construction paper souveniers with the footprints and all.

So you weren't born in Washington? It's one of the states that doesn't require any proof of status with regard to the person on the BC. I was thinking of ordering a special fully-legal BC for a relative and couldn't figure where in the application that proof of relationship was required (it isn't). In California, it's restricted to the named, parents, children, etc.

You should see what happened with a couple of sisters who were born "off the grid". Their parents moved around and never bothered to register their births with any government agency. They were taught by their parents and moved around. Eventually, one of them wanted to establish a legal life but couldn't even get a Social Security number, even though their parents testified in court and got late birth certificates issued. The SSA wouldn't accept them. In the end she sued the feds, and the State Dept agreed to issue her a passport card with her purported date of birth and place of birth, and the SSA agreed to accept them as per the court order.

http://lubbockonline.com/filed-online/2011-08-15/two-sisters-kentucky-sue-receive-social-security-numbers-work-blame-911

Strangely enough, there probably was a time when there wasn't as much a need for IDs.

There was a time when government agencies were more lax about proof of birth. A "hospital birth certificate" was typically accepted, even by the State Dept for passports. There's that scene in _Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story_ where his father pulls out his hospital birth certificate and tells him he was born in San Francisco and that he can return to the US. It shows his dad unfolding his "Jackson Street Hospital" birth certificate as if it was his ticket to the US. The reality is that his parents had already filed for a return document to the US and had a ceretified copy of his City and County of San Francisco birth certificate before they ever left for Hong Kong.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/03/travel/bruce-lee-hk-exhibitio


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## JayPea (Aug 5, 2014)

I was born in Washington. I just know, according to the State of Washington Department of Records website two valid pieces of ID were required to change my name on the certificate. And I didn't know if the DOL place I went to would squawk if my name on my driver's license and on my birth certificate didn't match. I was taking no chances.


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## BCL (Aug 5, 2014)

JayPea said:


> I was born in Washington. I just know, according to the State of Washington Department of Records website two valid pieces of ID were required to change my name on the certificate. And I didn't know if the DOL place I went to would squawk if my name on my driver's license and on my birth certificate didn't match. I was taking no chances.


Oh - to change your name. I kind of glanced through it and thought you said you needed ID to order the birth certificate. It seems kind of scary to me that anyone who can figure out a person's DOB can get a full unrestricted copy. And it's only $20 if you're willing to drive to Tumwater or order by mail. I take it the cost of gas made that cost prohibitive and you needed it faster than it would get to you by normal mail service.

You're at least living in a state with electronic printout records. In California if you get a name corrected, it would end up as an amended record and obvious to anyone that there was a name correction/change. The original document would still be there unsealed (unless it's an adoption), and the amendment is then page 2 whenever a birth record is ordered. And at that point the amended birth certificate can only be ordered from the state. We've got a funky system in California where the county files first and scans an image. Then it's handed off to the state, which scans it then archives it. The state usually recommends ordering from the county because of faster turnaround, but I'm not sure what would happen if the record is amended. I don't know if the counties get notice that the record has been amended.


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## JayPea (Aug 5, 2014)

You're right. I didn't need ID to order it. I did go ahead and have it mailed as I every once in a great while manage to think ahead. :lol: But the cost for postage was over 11 bucks. They were nice and mailed the replacement free of charge.


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## BCL (Aug 5, 2014)

JayPea said:


> You're right. I didn't need ID to order it. I did go ahead and have it mailed as I every once in a great while manage to think ahead. :lol: But the cost for postage was over 11 bucks. They were nice and mailed the replacement free of charge.


Like I said, California is a PITA about it. If a full copy is ordered by mail, that requires a notarized affidavit of eligibility to receive the document, where the requestor has to show identification. The max notary fee in California is $10, and that's usually what's charged. The state only issues vital records by mail; they have no office open to the public. Other states are more lenient, such as allowing a photocopy of the ID be sent with the application.

I'm already set up for my entire family. I've got everything I need. Even my three year old has photo ID and I take it with me just in case.


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## EB_OBS (Aug 6, 2014)

*Update to Acceptable Forms of Identification (ID)*

6. *Who must have Identification*

*b) Children 16-17*

* * A child 16-17 who does not have identification must have another person 18 or over*

* obtain his or her travel documents. That person must show his or her own identification*

* when obtaining the travel documents.*



* * Fares paid on trains for a child 16-17 traveling alone:*

* *

* * If the child does not have his or her own identification, another person 18 or over must*

* wait with the child for the train to arrive, and then pay the conductor the fare on behalf of*

* the child, showing his or her own identification. The person waiting with the child may*

* not leave until the train as arrived, the fare has been paid, and the child is safely on the*

* train.*

*7. Who is not required to have Identification*

* a) Children 15 years old and under.*

* b) Children 16-17 who have others*, 18 or over with proper identification, obtain their

* travel documents*


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 6, 2014)

I was trying to get an ID once. But she didn't want me.


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## CaliforniaMom (Aug 6, 2014)

BCL said:


> Like I said, California is a PITA about it.


Just wanted to say that California is a PITA about most things.


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## BCL (Aug 6, 2014)

CaliforniaMom said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, California is a PITA about it.
> ...


I bought a couple of copies of my kid's certified BC from a local agency. It was easy because I could sign the affadavit in person and show my ID directly at no extra expense. I also lived a few miles away and had the time to do it.

If you want to do it by mail or VitalChek, it requires the affadavit be signed in the prescence of a notary, and that costs money unless you have a friend who will do it for free. This is state law, regardless of who is issuing it.

And California is different. The state maintains the archive of all birth certificates, death certificates, and marriage licenses, but only after a county has processed it. The state highly recommends that people obtain certified copies of vital records from the county offices, which have them archived as computer images and/or microform. The state won't even produce marriage certificates for certain years - they tell people to go to the corresponding county office.


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 6, 2014)

CaliforniaMom said:


> BCL said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, California is a PITA about it.
> ...


Can I wrap lettuce, tomato, feta, tzaziki, and lamb kabobs in it and eat it?


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## BCL (Aug 6, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> CaliforniaMom said:
> 
> 
> > BCL said:
> ...


As long as it's not in the cafe car.


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## CaliforniaMom (Aug 7, 2014)

BCL said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > CaliforniaMom said:
> ...


And it's organic, free-range and sustainable within 10 miles. :giggle:


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## VentureForth (Aug 7, 2014)

Here in the South, and ID is some brilliant thought.

As in: That thar's a great ID!


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## Green Maned Lion (Aug 7, 2014)

VentureForth, you will NEVER dethrone me as the forum King of mind numbingly, belly groaningly, cringe inducingly awful puns that make people want to hit the teller with a large stick.

I am the utter worst at telling them. And of worst comes to wurst we can all have hot dogs.


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