# Hope builds for Northstar to St. Cloud [Minnesota]



## jebr (Feb 16, 2016)

> Since the Northstar commuter rail line began operating more than six years ago, there's been debate about when, if ever, it will come to St. Cloud.
> 
> It's always been a Catch-22: How does the rail line attract enough riders to get federal funding for an extension when the service stops in Big Lake, miles short of a regional population center such as St. Cloud?
> 
> The price of a St. Cloud extension, previously estimated at $150 million or more, has been a serious obstacle. But some advocates of the Northstar extension say they believe it could be done for much less than previously thought — and it might not be necessary to wait until ridership numbers climb.


Full article (St. Cloud Times)


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## WoodyinNYC (Feb 16, 2016)

jebr said:


> > Since the Northstar commuter rail line began operating . . .
> >
> > It's always been a Catch-22: How does the rail line attract enough riders to get federal funding for an extension when the service stops in Big Lake, miles short of a regional population center such as St. Cloud?
> >
> ...


Well, thanks to BNSF for double-tracking most of the line with its own dime.

As for Amtrak, any further upgrades would help the _Empire Builder_, of course.

Next up, another train Chicago-Twin Cities. And another and another to build corridor service. Northstar could make it possible for one of them to extend to St Cloud. But I'm more wishful than that: I want to see a second train from St Paul thru St Cloud all the way to Fargo and Grand Forks. So a full-out extension of the Northstar would be a solid step to the North Dakota cities beyond.


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## NorthShore (Feb 22, 2016)

Is Rep. Jim Knoblack related to Chuck, former player with the Twins?


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## Palmetto (Feb 22, 2016)

The ROW between Minneapolis and St. Cloud is all two main track now. This is what prompts the locals to have some hope for the St. Cloud extension, and I believe the extension was not allowed by BNSF until the single track between Becker and Big Lake was doubled up.


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## jebr (Mar 31, 2016)

> Rep. Jim Knoblach, GOP chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, authored a bill that will be introduced Tuesday to require the state to negotiate with BNSF Railway to extend the commuter rail line to St. Cloud from its current end point in Big Lake.
> 
> Knoblach's bill doesn't include any funding for an expansion, and prohibits the state from spending any more on operating costs than already budgeted. But he says he doesn't anticipate any additional cost to run the trains an additional 27 miles to the Amtrak station in St. Cloud.
> 
> ...


Full article (St. Cloud Times) here.


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## jebr (Mar 31, 2016)

As for reducing the frequencly of service to extend one round trip each rush hour to St. Cloud, I'm not sold that's the best solution. If the times don't work for people (especially during weekdays, which is when most of the commuter and time-sensitive demand is) most people will want to have bus service or still drive down to Big Lake to meet the other times that it runs.

Using the St. Cloud Amtrak station, while it seems okay at first sight, there's very little parking there and would not work at all as a "park and ride" facility for most people. With there already being one built for the Link on the southeast corner of St. Cloud (which is next to the tracks) spending a few million on a platform there would be a wise investment and allow more parking than the current Amtrak station can hold. (Alternatively, a parking ramp could be built on the existing Amtrak site, though I'm not sure if there's enough space for on there.)

In a perfect world, I'd like to see Amtrak and Metro Transit/the State of Minnesota work to have a unified service between St. Cloud and the Twin Cities. Sharing a station seems obvious. Coordinating fares to some extent, at least for those going from MSP - SCD, would also be a benefit (maybe a standing unreserved fare for MSP - SCD for the same price as the Northstar, essentially gaining a third frequency each way?) Ideally a Go-To card could also be used, but I'm not sure if that's possible with Amtrak's fare system. Although it would seem to be easy enough if a reader was placed at the SCD and MSP stations before heading to the platform, and people boarding there would scan it in front of the conductor to prove their fare.


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## Palmetto (Apr 1, 2016)

I doubt you'll ever see Amtrak sharing the same fare structure simply because Amtrak is not interested in carrying commuters for the most part. But on the other hand, they do sell muti-ride tickets, so if people are willing to pay the higher Amtrak price, there will be a seat for them, I guess. The perfect example is people getting on Amtrak at Providence RI instead of the MBTA. And there are some others, as well.


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## fairviewroad (Apr 1, 2016)

jebr said:


> In a perfect world, I'd like to see Amtrak and Metro Transit/the State of Minnesota work to have a unified service between St. Cloud and the Twin Cities. Sharing a station seems obvious. Coordinating fares to some extent, at least for those going from MSP - SCD, would also be a benefit (maybe a standing unreserved fare for MSP - SCD for the same price as the Northstar, essentially gaining a third frequency each way?) Ideally a Go-To card could also be used, but I'm not sure if that's possible with Amtrak's fare system. Although it would seem to be easy enough if a reader was placed at the SCD and MSP stations before heading to the platform, and people boarding there would scan it in front of the conductor to prove their fare.


Am I missing something here? Amtrak doesn't go to Minneapolis. How can you have a unified service in that case? It's not as though everyday commuters are going to ride into St. Paul in the morning and home from Minneapolis in the afternoon.

As far as ticketing, Amtrak does not currently offer multi-ride tickets on any of its overnight LD trains. I highly doubt they're interested in picking up fares between two adjacent stops on a 2200 mile route. Even if you qualified those tickets as "standing room only" (i.e. go sit in the lounge car) the schedules really don't work for daily commuters, even if you set aside the fact that the EB and the Northstar don't even go to the same city.

That said, I can see the value of sharing a station in St. Could provided the parking issues are dealt with. There's some marketing value in having a "TRAIN STATION" and not mucking about with different locations for different service providers. But I wouldn't want them to try to fit a square peg in a round hole. If Amtrak doesn't want to budge, and the parking issue can't be resolved, then simply put in a different station for the commuter train.


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## Palmetto (Apr 3, 2016)

Good points, fairview.


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## jebr (Apr 4, 2016)

I admit the Amtrak/Northstar crossuse was a bit of a fantasy and wasn't a very vetted idea.

For someone coming from St. Cloud, especially if they're doing an activity in St. Paul (an orchestra performance, business dinner meeting, baseball game, hockey game, etc.) a collaboration to some degree would be useful. The Northstar station and Union Depot are connected via the Green Line, so it's not unreasonable for someone to take the Northstar down and Amtrak back (or vice versa,) using the Green Line to get between the two stations.

Now whether that would simply be shared stations in St. Cloud or a stronger partnership, I'm not sure. However, I do think there are major gains to be made even by simply sharing a station in St. Cloud; the current park and ride location is not connected to the Amtrak station in any significant sense and trying to get those two together would be ideal. However, if the Northstar and Amtrak stations are shared parking must be considered in some way as there is no way that the current situation for parking would suffice in a joint-use situation.


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## MattW (Apr 4, 2016)

I would hope that the current park and ride is made a station in addition to the downtown location. There's no real reason not to have both. Now as for whether Amtrak should stop at both, I'll lean toward not and only stop at the current station.


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## jebr (Apr 4, 2016)

The current location isn't really downtown. From downtown, you're looking at about a 20-25 minute walk to the current station.

The biggest problem with having the Amtrak station also serving Northstar commuters is that parking may fill up very fast, leaving no room for Amtrak passengers to park. There's also not enough build-up of the local transit network to be able to remove all parking, and arguably not even enough to charge for parking there.


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## Palmetto (Apr 5, 2016)

Northstar is a commuter-oriented operation right now. The last train out of the Target Center station is around 7 PM or thereabouts. It would be nice if they had a late night departure for evening activities. Another big problem is that St. Paul should probably be getting some service. That all adds up to finding more money.


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