# No more charters & special moves: 3/28/18 Memo fr Anderson



## rtabern (Mar 28, 2018)

A source just shared with me that Mr. Anderson sent down a memo to employees this morning advising Amtrak will no longer do special charters or moves anymore EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. The information is very vague, but does mention them essentially being a distraction to regular Amtrak operations. No specifics are mentioned --- but this is leaving many wondering what this means --- PV moves? Ski train? New River train? Steam moves that require Amtrak power? Leavenworth Snow Train? Reno Fun Train? Amtrak Fall Colors trip?

This is just breaking now.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 28, 2018)

And it was pointed out on FB and I think another website that this is FAKE NEWS!


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## jis (Mar 28, 2018)

This going to be fun. People in the know are now claiming it is a fake, while Trains Mag is running hard with it in its Newswire. So someone somewhere will have to eat some crow and swallow ones pride or some such, no matter which way this turns out at the end.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 28, 2018)

The Trains Newswire piece is here.

Trains Newswire

Note that the Trains Newswire article says this was a "notice of policy change" circulated to employees. It does not name Mr. Anderson as the source.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2018)

The text that Trains quotes though, is verbatim from the little ditty that some of us did get to see, a document signed by Mr. Anderson supposedly.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 28, 2018)

The one I saw on FB before it was taken down appeared to be fake and several people pointed that out. The memo had shading under/over the text and there was even a cursor showing after one of the paragraphs - indicating it was a screenshot from a computer.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2018)

So the question boils down to whether the thing that was displayed on the screen was a facsimile of a real document or one just cooked up by someone. There would be no way to tell.

My impression now is that there is definitely some policy change in the works regarding PVs and special moves, the details of which are slowly trickling out from PV owners that I know.

One example I heard is that PVs can bee added or removed only at origin and destination points of a train or at an intermediate stop with a scheduled stop of 30 mins or more. This will of course create unmitigated headaches for PV owners, but will be better for normal passengers as far as timekeeping goes. If I could get ten bucks for each time my train got delayed due to fiddling around with PVs, I could get a few free Amtrak rides out of that fund.

Also apparently the haulage charges are being bumped up significantly for anything that will be hauled conformant to the new add/drop rules.

Looks like they are trying to eliminate the negative balance in the haulage account. Of course that balance is partly determined by how costs are allocated and whether that bears any resemblance to the actual costs incurred. For example if costs of the Amtrak Reservation System are also allocated to that BU this action won't change any of the underlying costs. Just allocations to every other account will go up.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 28, 2018)

I wonder if the recent charter of the CZ by the gaming geeks is included? Considering that all food service was paid for in advance by the groups commercial vendors and sponsors not sure the charter was a money looser for Amtrak. There were extra cars that probably deadheaded back to Chicago.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2018)

Well good thing I've been trying to get out of charters because looks like if I stay much longer I'll be unemployed. I'll run this up the flag pole past some of my sources from the Susie q trip and get back with you with what I'm allowed to say.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 28, 2018)

Hmmm. If this is true, does it include the Democrat and Republican special charters from Washington DC?


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## jis (Mar 28, 2018)

I am sure there is an appropriate "weasel phrase" like "some exceptions" or such





If you are a paid up member of Trainroders you can take a look at the memo in question at https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/attachments/fullsize/1278000/29683654_226967588046568_3563729829223220805_n.jpg


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## CHvision (Mar 28, 2018)

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/03/28-amtrak-to-stop-operating-special-trains-charter-moves

This article mentions Amtrak to end the special trains and moves. However, question is: will it happen or not?..


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2018)

It's confirmed guys. Just got off the phone with two sources.


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## rtabern (Mar 28, 2018)

AmtrakBlue said:


> And it was pointed out on FB and I think another website that this is FAKE NEWS!


AND what is your source it's fake news?

Facebook? Mwahahahahahahaha.

Then someone must have hacked Anderson's e-mail, as thousands of Amtrak employees just received it in their inbox this morning... and is on Trains Magazine website.

I guess someone hacked the Collis P Huntington's inbox too and advised them no more train moves come April 1st.


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## rtabern (Mar 28, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> It's confirmed guys. Just got off the phone with two sources.


Yep. I usually confirm things with 4-5 sources before posting here. Can't say I have never been wrong and had to "eat crow" (news about the dome in particular one time!) --- but I would say my info has been right 97-99% of the time when confirmed with 4-5 independent sources who would know the information.

Now the question is WHAT does the memo apply to?

A) New River Train

B) All PV moves

C) Amtrak Ski Train

D) Leavenworth Snow Train

E) Reno Fun Train

F) Amtrak Autumn Express

G) Steam trips that would require an Amtrak engine normally

H) Groups that charter one car of a regularly scheduled train (like the 20th Century RR Club)

or... gosh forbid all of the above


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## jis (Mar 28, 2018)

rtabern said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> > And it was pointed out on FB and I think another website that this is FAKE NEWS!
> ...


She already told you what her source was, so please stop giving her a hard time unnecessarily.

The sequence of events as visible to me, as it unfolded (from my vantage point) was:

1. A message was posted on FB with the memo that I have since posted a pointer to in TO.

2. Soon after that it was removed saying that it is fake.

3. Trains Mag came out with their Newswire quoting from that memo, but not providing any pointer to it , somewhat naturally since it was an internal memo.

4. The Memo was posted in TO at a relatively innocuous place but an list that would be of much relevance - Steam Excursions

5. Borden Black (owner of "Dearing") posted a plea on FB Amtrak group explaining what they have been told and asking folks to start communication with Amtrak powers that be regarding the matter.

6. Most recently Seabord92 got verifying calls from friends in the know.

The current theory is that it applies to everything that Amtrak choose not to make an exceptional case of, which probably means pretty much everything in the current mood.

Although I suspect it probably does not cover the case where some party reserves a whole bunch of seats on a regular service and Amtrak chooses to add a car to accommodate them without killing space for normal customers.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2018)

rtabern said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > It's confirmed guys. Just got off the phone with two sources.
> ...


A. Has been cancelled for this year unless they are able to make headway. They are meeting with their congressmen sometime tomorrow.

B. I will ask some more around I was looking more towards my projects and contracts more so then that. Will update if I learn.

C. Not sure that's not something I would be privy too. Nor is it something I work on.

D. Last year was supposedly the last one period.

E. Did that even run last year or this year. I don't recall it?

F. Again not privy to it. But I'm not hopeful.

G. I hope not as I have one planned for next year. I'll reach out to them and if need be modify my plan for a commuter railroad nearby. But I would assume cancelled.

H. I'm not sure yet as I didn't check on single car moves.

I. Political charters. Probably still operating because you have to suck up to politicians.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 28, 2018)

Which I have to ask why?

Recall a old IG report that stated Amtrak was make money off these special movement, and PV hauls.

Really how many people does it take to pull off a special movement?


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2018)

Also before we lament completely the loss of private cars, steam excursions, and the like. Please remember people like me and my colleagues because special ops contribute the largest part of our yearly income.


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## jis (Mar 28, 2018)

I suspect it has something to do with allocated cost accounting as opposed to incremental cost/revenue accounting. Something that is really spectacularly profitable can show up as a significant loss maker if you are able to allocate sufficient costs onto it to make other businesses look better in allocated cost accounting, which Amtrak is required to do by FRA.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 28, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Also before we lament completely the loss of private cars, steam excursions, and the like. Please remember people like me and my colleagues because special ops contribute the largest part of our yearly income.


There has to be an alternative to Amtrak hauling the PVs, etc. After the shock wears off, I think the owners will start figuring out how to keep going without Amtrak.

My personal feeling is that Anderson is following in the footsteps of the first Amtrak CEO, another airline person whose "job" was to try to destroy Amtrak before it even got started. I don't understand his boneheaded moves, otherwise. If I give him the benefit of the doubt, it may simply be that, with the airline culture that he comes from, he truly doesn't see any of his changes as being destructive.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 28, 2018)

Well... that's not good news. If the #261 trip is still on for the summer (it was already approved so it should be?) we should make sure to ride it while we can. After that it's gonna be Union Pacific Steam only on the mainlines until someone wants to try to raise an absurd amount of money to cover the cost of insurance for rail excursions that usually barely break even with majority volunteer help.

It seems like a very strange business decision to turn down ALL charters... since chartering a train is not a cheap thing to do. Any delays that Private cars may have added to amtrak trains (and really... amtrak is blaming the private cars for delays? that's a bit of a joke. While I have been on amtrak trains delayed by adding private cars... that happens so rarely and it's usually a 10-20 min. delay at the most. I'm sure the private car rental more than makes up for that 10 minutes.)


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## bretton88 (Mar 28, 2018)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Also before we lament completely the loss of private cars, steam excursions, and the like. Please remember people like me and my colleagues because special ops contribute the largest part of our yearly income.
> ...


Anderson did this same thing at Delta/Northwest when it was a complete operational mess, he killed off charters until they got their house in order. Eventually the charters came back, but only after the mess was cleaned up. The goal is to try to turn Amtrak into reliable transportation, so I suspect Anderson has a similar mindset with Amtrak. To note, VIA rail has basically become impossible to do any charters/PV haulage on.


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## SP&S (Mar 28, 2018)

I can see where changes need to be made in this area. I've been on the CS when it was seriously delayed adding or dropping PV's from the consist. When you're running late, an extra hour delay is never appreciated. Hopefully somebody ends up realizing that we need changes made with a surgeon's scalpel rather than a meat cleaver.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2018)

Most of the time we don't delay the train adding or dropping cars because they already allow so few places in the network to us. And generally there is already a switch crew in place to cut us in or out. The issue in that case is likely mechanical.

Or could be a track space issue if you are referring to the Bay Area. Honestly a lot of delays are attributed to us that aren't our direct fault. When we switch in at HUN on 50/51 we can generally switch in rapidly. Less then five minutes. We cut in last year twenty odd cars, and two engines. Lost ten minutes total.

I'm DC again it's a fairly easy move as long as there is track space to accommodate it and a switch crew on duty. We bring four million a year to amtraks bottom line, and cost them no money. Every service we get we pay a pretty penny for.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 28, 2018)

rtabern said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > It's confirmed guys. Just got off the phone with two sources.
> ...



I hate to point this out, but you've been wrong quite a few times. Additionally, if you REALLY knew what you were talking about, you wouldn't have to post these questions because you'd know the intent and application of the memo.

Upon further thought, I actually don't hate pointing it out! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Curious...you didn't blurt out the rest of the memo.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 28, 2018)

So what is the intent and application?

I get the Trolling part, but lets add clarification to this situation. What is the purpose and how does it impact?


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## Anderson (Mar 28, 2018)

You know, some of this is making me wonder if Richard Anderson somehow has not managed to tell the difference between cost accounting and incremental costs...


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## TiBike (Mar 28, 2018)

OK, here's the whole memo:



> special employee advisory
> 
> March 28, 2018 • Page 1 of 1
> 
> ...


He seems to be doing what a lot of successful turn-around CEOs have done: define the core business – "safe, on time, clean cars, friendly service and great customer-facing technology" – then ruthlessly pursue it. He's running a 21st century transportation business, not a 19th century museum piece.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2018)

I find it interesting he refers to passengers as customers. Which they are but definitely an interesting choice of words because a customer in my opinion has a higher stature then a passenger. Just like a guest has a better connotation then a customer.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 28, 2018)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So what is the intent and application?
> 
> I get the Trolling part, but lets add clarification to this situation. What is the purpose and how does it impact?



Ahh. Now that Tbike has posted the memo that was put out (which may not be the ones other people have seen), read it carefully. How it was explained (prior to the memo) was nothing as draconian as the sky is falling post the Rtbern made.

For an example, is the Ski train a "one time operation or a collaboration with a state partner?" Are the Philadelphia Orchestra and sport charters a "one time" operation or do they have a long standing operational agreement?

The bottom line is something I've mentioned in the past. He is for profit. Do these operations cover their costs? The ones that have a solid business case and do not hinder the operations will continue. If the Autumn Express still continues to perform, that is within the scope of the Congressional mandate to seek new/additional sources of revenue. The ones that do not, will vanish. If the Autumn Express drains impacts riders from other trains (Which I have always maintained it does) and doesn't perform, it will vanish. The trains and services are being evaluated on a case by case basis. Will adding the private car en route cause a significant delay and necessitate costly personnel or can this private car travel end to end without impacting OTP.

After all, Amtrak (after a few years of wrangling) JUST changed train schedules on the NEC to accommodate end to end PV car operation.

Why not wait and see how this plays out since it will vary?


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 28, 2018)

BTW, not to drive this too far off topic but since Tbike posted, what do you think of the reasoning for ending AAA discounts, etc?


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## Ryan (Mar 28, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Why not wait and see how this plays out since it will vary?


This is The Internet. We don't do that here.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 28, 2018)

I'll come out and say this the New River Train is not running this next year and I have that straight from the source. It's impact on trains is very small just a crew, and three engines. The rest of it is made of private cars. But I'm waiting and seeing before I do anything because like I said I'm leaving the charter industry.


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## districtRich (Mar 28, 2018)

I barely post but people complaining about the loss of amenities and how things used to be whan Amtrak was bleeding money just frustrate me. Amtrak has record ridership and revenue and almost matches their operational expenses this year. Back then was the reason Congress hated Amtrak. It appears Amtrak knows what it's doing to stay alive and not the people that wish for the shoe-shines of the past that lost money


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## TinCan782 (Mar 28, 2018)

SP&S said:


> I can see where changes need to be made in this area. I've been on the CS when it was seriously delayed adding or dropping PV's from the consist. When you're running late, an extra hour delay is never appreciated. Hopefully somebody ends up realizing that we need changes made with a surgeon's scalpel rather than a meat cleaver.


I boarded a 3.5+ hour late #11 at EMY last July. The train had three locomotives. We lost more than another half hour depositing the extra locomotive in the Oakland Amtrak Yard. No PV's involved.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 28, 2018)

Thanks to Thirdrail! A person in the know, and as was said, let's wait and see how it actually plays out, there's lots of wiggle room in the memo!

Chicken Little can take a rest, the Sky isn't falling on Amtrak!


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## CraigDK (Mar 28, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> Thanks to Thirdrail! A person in the know, and as was said, let's wait and see how it actually plays out, there's lots of wiggle room in the memo!
> 
> Chicken Little can take a rest, the Sky isn't falling on Amtrak!


Well, at least there are fewer Chicken Littles on AU than elsewhere on the internets...


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## the_traveler (Mar 28, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> BTW, not to drive this too far off topic but since Tbike posted, what do you think of the reasoning for ending AAA discounts, etc?


My take on the AAA is that it makes sense to get rid of it. After all, AAA is the American AUTOMOBILE Association, not the American TRAIN Association. What does AAA have to do with Amtrak, except to promote driving instead of taking the train.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 28, 2018)

the_traveler said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, not to drive this too far off topic but since Tbike posted, what do you think of the reasoning for ending AAA discounts, etc?
> ...


AAA promotes travel. That's why hotels, theme parks, tourist attractions etc. give a AAA discount. It was advertising... AAA members get a list of discounts. I'm not saying it makes sense to continue that arrangement...but I'm saying the arrangement made perfect sense.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 28, 2018)

Does this have any effect on those tour groups on the western trains? We all think they get a big discount and take over everything.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 29, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> Does this have any effect on those tour groups on the western trains? We all think they get a big discount and take over everything.


Big discount? That questionable, but even if they do lose there discount, it would not stop them for traveling.
Dont see anything in this memo that effect group sales.

As for take over the train, that a interesting statement. A full train of passengers have needs even if its a full of single passenger or a single group of passengers.

.


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2018)

(1) The discount decision is at least nominally defensible, even if I'm worried that he's inviting an inverse of the JC Penney screwup (I think this is a serious risk, but I obviously also lack the sort of back-end data to back it up).

(2) The language on the PV move front strikes me as utterly blinkered to the point that it undermines my confidence in his management skills (at least, given my understanding of Amtrak's accounting issues...something that I don't think he's considering). Now, I can see the "distraction" issue (though I think it to be overblown, especially given how much of Amtrak's OTP issues come down to Class I misbehavior)...but I also feel as though that was very much an animal of Amtrak's making given that Amtrak would often not commit to a move until a few days out (thus meaning that in all likelihood any move was a "surprise").


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## GBNorman (Mar 29, 2018)

Amtrak's timing to announce this policy could not have been better, even if there are points that need be clarified. Hey, the $1.9B whopper of funding is now enacted, and by the time the FY 19 appropriation is in Committee and the Omnibus pulls up to its stop on the floor, all will be forgotten.

But it is hard to believe that Amtrak will not handle any further special moves such as Major League sports teams, the NJ legislators, the Philadelphia Orchestra, and others over the Corridor using Amtrak equipment.

Unfortunately for AAPRCO, Friends of 261, the Fall Excursion, and similar, the Adios drumhead could be out. Lest we forget, does Delta operate "nostalgia flights" with DC-3's?


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## niemi24s (Mar 29, 2018)

Looks like the dream of fixing this up for my PV has just been scuttled:


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## Northeastern292 (Mar 29, 2018)

It's a hard pill to swallow, and I see bigger reprocussions:

It's a move which in essence makes Amtrak more vulerable outside of it's major "hubs". For instance, I can't see Amtrak maintaining the 807/808 ("Twin Cities Builder") coach for the holidays as an excuse. Same goes for ANY special operation. Anderson's having a panic attack I think and is now realizing he's in over his head. You cannot run a railroad like you run an airline. Roger Lewis tried and look what happened: he made decisions that paralyzed Amtrak in the long-term.

Outside of major end points, Amtrak is on it's own. More of a reason to have increased train service nationally.

Everyone's concerns and comments are pretty valid. Personally, I think the backlash will grow to the point where some kind of compromise will be hashed out, Amtrak state that the move is temporary (a la Anderson with Delta charters post merger, but with Amtrak, a temporary suspension is NEVER temporary), or Amtrak will give into pressure.

There are three areas where backlash might prove to undo this ban:

-Congress: if Amtrak's ban applies to the Congressional specials, this ban will be over before the end of April

-Borden Black: As a former AAPRCO president, she still holds a bit of sway. She's fighting this, and all of us at AU should pitch in.

-AAPRCO themselves: Not counting the train wreck called Pullman Rail Journeys *cough* I mean Iowa Pacific *cough*, AAPRCO is one of Amtrak's best customers. That's $10 million Amtrak is throwing away.

-Charles W. Moorman: Wick's influence on rail can be felt in numerous places. He revived NS's steam program and is the owner of former NYC observation car Sandy Creek (RPCX 800321). I would imagine that Wick can't be happy about this.

Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## cassrr (Mar 29, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Most of the time we don't delay the train adding or dropping cars because they already allow so few places in the network to us. And generally there is already a switch crew in place to cut us in or out. The issue in that case is likely mechanical.
> 
> Or could be a track space issue if you are referring to the Bay Area. Honestly a lot of delays are attributed to us that aren't our direct fault. When we switch in at HUN on 50/51 we can generally switch in rapidly. Less then five minutes. We cut in last year twenty odd cars, and two engines. Lost ten minutes total.
> 
> I'm DC again it's a fairly easy move as long as there is track space to accommodate it and a switch crew on duty. We bring four million a year to amtraks bottom line, and cost them no money. Every service we get we pay a pretty penny for.


Baloney! Twice in the past month 50 was delayed out of Huntington for 25 and 30 minutes respectively for coupling up CPH's private varnish. Last year I missed a connection in Chicago due to a two hour delay on the CZ in Denver hooking up PV. PV connections can and DO cause delays.


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## Blackwolf (Mar 29, 2018)

cassrr said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the time we don't delay the train adding or dropping cars because they already allow so few places in the network to us. And generally there is already a switch crew in place to cut us in or out. The issue in that case is likely mechanical.
> ...


Affirmative.

This last September, our trip on the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to New York suffered multiple delays and mechanical troubles due to 12 antique PV's bringing up the markers. Late leaving CHI, plus HEP issues meaning the elimination of lights/HVAC/toilets (and the eventual need to completely cut electrical power to the PV's,) and even more delays due to servicing and yard moves in ALB. Granted, this was a huge AAPRCO event, but it almost should have been its own move due to the size.


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## Northeastern292 (Mar 29, 2018)

Blackwolf said:


> cassrr said:
> 
> 
> > Seaboard92 said:
> ...


If it was the AAPRCO special then yes, that should have been a special move. Too much stress on the HEP, and if you ask me, the P42's are getting long in the tooth. 
Sent from my Moto Z2 Play using Amtrak Forum mobile app


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## jis (Mar 29, 2018)

Blackwolf said:


> Affirmative.
> 
> This last September, our trip on the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to New York suffered multiple delays and mechanical troubles due to 12 antique PV's bringing up the markers. Late leaving CHI, plus HEP issues meaning the elimination of lights/HVAC/toilets (and the eventual need to completely cut electrical power to the PV's,) and even more delays due to servicing and yard moves in ALB. Granted, this was a huge AAPRCO event, but it almost should have been its own move due to the size.


That is quite true. I have been delayed more than a few times due to fiddling around with PVs.

I know revenue numbers between $4 million and $10 million have been mentioned. Does anyone know what the corresponding cost numbers are, as in say passengers that had to be taken care of due to missed connections caused by PVs etc.? Without such full accounting we would never know for sure what the real numbers are. And I am not talking about "Allocation Accounting" after the fact, but actual "Incremental Revenue/Cost Accounting". Should the cost of Amtrak self-insuring its operations also be proportionately allocated? I don't know the answer, but those are issues to consider. Revenue is not the only thing in the equation.

Meanwhile, I have no doubt that things that have been running every year will probably continue to run, as well as things for which the real cost is fully paid. And things like the Ski Train or the Congressional Specials will continue to run for perhaps an increased Charter price. If they don't, that will be something that will indeed break the camel's back. But we don't know for sure how the evaluation of individual cases will be carried out.


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## dlagrua (Mar 29, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Thirdrail7 said:
> ...


That's my opinion as well. On every Amtrak trip that we have taken a rental car is always part of the trip. I see no conflict here at all


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## TinCan782 (Mar 29, 2018)

From Trainorders ...

_*Amtrak shutting down all PVs on LOSSAN corridor*_

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4518953

The original poster, John Caestecker, is owner of PV "Silver Splendor" in Los Angeles.

This will possibly also have an impact on Conductor Bill Hatrick's popular "Vino Train".


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## jmlaboda (Mar 29, 2018)

All this chatter and no one has considered the proximity to April 1st??? Year after year there are some really well executed hoaxes that are perpetrated misleading many people... but all just in jest...

I will bet that this is one of the best hoaxes ever... not a laughing matter but probably one that will go down in the record books as being the best...


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## jis (Mar 29, 2018)

jmlaboda said:


> All this chatter and no one has considered the proximity to April 1st??? Year after year there are some really well executed hoaxes that are perpetrated misleading many people... but all just in jest...
> 
> I will bet that this is one of the best hoaxes ever... not a laughing matter but probably one that will go down in the record books as being the best...


Actually it is not a hoax.


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## Anderson (Mar 29, 2018)

I do wonder if CA (either in the form of Caltrans or in the form of LOSSAN) was part of the decision-making process on this? Since they don't seem to have been part of the "discount affair", I have to wonder...especially on the presumption that there is incremental revenue here. Were I in CA's shoes, I'd be asking lawyers if there's a way to force Amtrak to make them whole for any net lost revenue from such moves.


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## jis (Mar 29, 2018)

It all depends on what is written in the contract regarding non-farebox revenue. I haven’t a clue.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 30, 2018)

I looked up the Dover Harbor website, and they don't have any news about this. In fact, they are still advertising their trips for the spring. Not sure what's going on there? Maybe they weren't told yet? Anyone know?


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

Dearing is also advertising all its trips into August/Sept, and its owner is one of the very visible agitators on the issue of PVs.

I suspect everybody in the know may know something that we outsiders don't.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Mar 30, 2018)

I hope you're right, jis!


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 30, 2018)

Could it be that signed contracts are being honored, but any new contracts are not being accepted?


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## Palmetto (Mar 30, 2018)

jis said:


> Dearing is also advertising all its trips into August/Sept, and its owner is one of the very visible agitators on the issue of PVs.
> 
> I suspect everybody in the know may know something that we outsiders don't.


It might also be that the PV owners are going to fight this tooth and nail, and are leaving their trips posted in the hopes they'll be successful.


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

As I got more and more puzzled about all the numbers of the incredible largess that PVs and Charters bring to Amtrak that Amtrak could collapse without, I decided to dig a little deeper to get a feel for at least the orders of magnitude involved. What I discovered based on the 2017 Audited Financials of Amtrak are as follows:

Passenger Related Revenue was $2.54 billion, which includes $363 billion in F&B and State contribution. After taking those out ticket revenue is $2.19 billion.

Other revenue was $762 million, which includes among other things special move and charter revenues, etc. The item covering those is called "Transportation" in the statement and it accounts for $181.6 million in all. So that is pretty much an upper bound of the PV and Charters related revenues.

Now, since there is no way to figure out the cost of providing services for that revenue stream, all that we can say is that if all Charter and PV operations were stopped cold turkey, that would constitute possible loss of $0.18 billion of revenue out of a total revenue of $2.54 billion, noticeable amount but not a deal breaker by any means.

So absent that business in its entirety, Amtrak's revenues would be $2.36 billion instead of $2.54 billion.

Since we do not know the cost associated with that "Transportation" revenue stream, the net amount of P/L is probably substantially less than that, But still, it may very well be a number at least in double digit millions possibly. The number $4 million to $10 million net positive has been mentioned by various parties in this regard. This obliquely suggest that the cost of providing that service is somewhere between $171 million to $177 million, i.e. the net impact on Amtrak's bottom line would be that $4 million to $ 10 million in the net revenue of $2.54 billion.

Anyway, that's all I could dig out and thought others might find useful.

This should not be seen as an argument for or against running PVs and Charters. It is just to get a better grounded argument. One thing that this does not take into consideration at all are the non-monitized intangibles, which naturally cannot be included in this analysis for the very fact that they are hard to quantify - which also might mean that no one has a clue what their real impact is.


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## rrdude (Mar 30, 2018)

It may well have been, or turn into, a means to charge the PVs even more than they do, AND, to limit where they will allow the pick-up/discharge of a PV. (As mentioned by most, terminal points only, or, locations with a dwell time in excess of XYZ minutes)

The special moves and charters, (i.e., "excursions") I don't really get that, as they also could be priced higher, and by default, there would be fewer.

I do agree with another poster that "getting your basic transportation in order", in other words, "run your damn trains on time" is a base line goal. Perhaps, as the other poster mentioned, Amtrak will review this, AFTER they have succeeded in doing that. I for one tho, wouldn't hold my breath.


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## Northbound98 (Mar 30, 2018)

Politics aside, does anyone know what alternatives exist for private car operators? Do all of the class 1's have HEP generator cars? Do they have policies that allow PV operators to actually move cars at anything close to a reasonable cost?


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## jis (Mar 30, 2018)

Most PVs have self generating capabilities, but can operate in HEP consists. At least having HEP pass through is an Amtrak requirement.

Any Class 1 or Class 2 will happily tow a car as long as it is not carrying any people. To carry people they require the Amtrak level insurance, which Amtrak provides when they are in Amtrak consists but Class 1/2s don't carry such insurance. So they have to be independently arranged, and these insurances are hard to come by, unless underwritten by a large outfit like Amtrak.

As things stand it looks like Amtrak will not stop towing PVs as long as they are running from origin to destination of an Amtrak train or to an intermediate stop where the schedule Amtrak halt is 30 mins or more. This potentially increases the cost of someone that wants to run a PV excursion, say from Hinton WV to Cincinnati OH, just to pick a random example, to an impossible level.

Before these rules go into effect they could just hitch the car onto Cardinal at Hinton and have it dropped off at Cincy.

With the new rules they will have to get CSX to move the car (unstaffed) to Washington DC so that it can be hitched onto the Cardinal there. The they can board it wherever en route and get off wherever en route, but the car has to go all the way to Chicago. You can see the complication that this creates.

So bottom line is many of the currently run trips will become close to impossible, while many other will be operable with some extra cost for car positioning.

Finally, it is a fluid situation as the details of what the new policy are not fully clear yet.

Hope that clarifies more than confuses.


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## jebr (Mar 30, 2018)

The situation that will be most curious to me to see how it plays out is how they will handle St. Paul. Back when the station move was made from the Midway station to Union Depot, Amtrak shortened the station stop from 40+ minutes to under 20 minutes, but didn't adjust the overall runtime of the train or (as far as I remember) the calling times of the neighboring station stops. My understanding was that they kept the time in to allow for switching activities near the old Midway station (both private cars and potentially a cutoff coach MSP - CHI. I don't think I've ever seen the cutoff coach used in revenue service since the move to MSP, so I wonder if they'll just keep the padding but not allow any switching movements at MSP, if they'll reduce padding and not allow switching movements at MSP, or if they'll allow switching movements at MSP despite not having 30 minutes of dwell in the timetable.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2018)

Just to correct Jis a bit Hinton and Cincinnati were never allowable cuts on the Cardinal. Cincy was till I think 2008 when CSX started denying switching there and all of the Cincy cars moved to Chicago.

The only places one could add or subtract to my knowledge were New York, Washington, Huntington, Indianapolis, and Chicago. This new policy strands the Dearing, JP Henderson, Braddock Inn, NYC 38, Wisconsin, and Berlin. And will likely cost the CP Huntington chapter upwards of 6k a month to store their cars somewhere.

Not factoring in that CP Huntington does brisk business year round with elementary, middle, and high school charters from WV to Washington. And their own PV trips to DC and New York.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2018)

Thanks. I was just picking random examples illustrate a point. Substitute two existing cut points that won’t be any more.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## seat38a (Mar 31, 2018)

larail.com has a notice up on their site. Also looks like the online purchase feature for public trips has been removed. In my experience, riding Amtrak trains which involved private railcars, has involved delaying the train I was on due to failing equipment on the private car, or all services aboard the train pretty much coming to a complete halt because of having to kill power to the train to attach the car. Last December on the CS, we had to stop because something from the private car attached in Oakland was dragging on the tracks. On the SWC in ABQ, adding the Tioga Pass had us on the train without power for about 45 minutes in July. This compounded the already delayed service in the dining car and added to passengers frustration aboard the train since we had no AC.

I was thinking of trying one of the trips run by larail.com this year but I guess thats a no go now.


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## dlagrua (Mar 31, 2018)

jis said:


> Most PVs have self generating capabilities, but can operate in HEP consists. At least having HEP pass through is an Amtrak requirement.
> 
> Any Class 1 or Class 2 will happily tow a car as long as it is not carrying any people. To carry people they require the Amtrak level insurance, which Amtrak provides when they are in Amtrak consists but Class 1/2s don't carry such insurance. So they have to be independently arranged, and these insurances are hard to come by, unless underwritten by a large outfit like Amtrak.
> 
> ...


The private RR's have and do pull passenger cars. Barnum and Baily, Straits Shows are/were two examples. There is also Bennett Levin (located outside PHL) that runs his personal private train locos and all.


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## AmtrakBlue (Mar 31, 2018)

dlagrua said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Most PVs have self generating capabilities, but can operate in HEP consists. At least having HEP pass through is an Amtrak requirement.
> ...


I suspect Barnum & Bailey and Straits show had their own insurance that met the RR's requirements. Perhaps Bennett Levin does too.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2018)

I have heard that Bennett Levin is not planning to equip his engines with PTC. If that is true then their operational days on US main lines are numbered.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Palmland (Mar 31, 2018)

One solution for the Huntington stop on the Cardinal: lengthen it’s 10 min stop to 30min. The train could use some schedule tweaking to better serve WV and Ohio cities and it is so slow now, another 20 min would make little difference. At least on the WB train the schedule padding at Indianapolis could be reduced slightly to account for the change.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 31, 2018)

A note about Mr. Levin. His moves actually come under Amtrak and run as Amtrak specials generally. There have been a handful of exceptions to the rule when he has run without Amtrak. But those times are very rare.

The only time I can think of recently is for Streamliners at Spencer. And that was a Norfolk Southern train with his two E8s, and three cars. And that was NS 955 from Philly to Spencer. The actual Streamliners Special from Charlotte to Spencer was actually an Amtrak move with Amtrak pilots, conductor, and road foreman.

And yes it's true he is not installing PTC on his locomotives so this year will be the last time to see them.


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## TinCan782 (Mar 31, 2018)

seat38a said:


> larail.com has a notice up on their site. Also looks like the online purchase feature for public trips has been removed. In my experience, riding Amtrak trains which involved private railcars, has involved delaying the train I was on due to failing equipment on the private car, or all services aboard the train pretty much coming to a complete halt because of having to kill power to the train to attach the car. Last December on the CS, we had to stop because something from the private car attached in Oakland was dragging on the tracks. On the SWC in ABQ, adding the Tioga Pass had us on the train without power for about 45 minutes in July. This compounded the already delayed service in the dining car and added to passengers frustration aboard the train since we had no AC.
> 
> I was thinking of trying one of the trips run by larail.com this year but I guess thats a no go now.


Actually, if you scroll down, the public trips schedule is still there. That said, it doesn't look good based on a FB post I saw by Bill Hatrick (Overland Trail) and an email received from John Caestecker (Silver Splendor). The San Diego to San Luis Obispo corridor (LOSSAN/Pacific Surfliner) has stopped PV moves. On perhaps a last trip, two LA Rail cars (Silver Splendor and Pacific Sands) departed LA on the Sunset Limited last night (3/30). Don't know the details of that move.


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## acelafan (Mar 31, 2018)

I know this is a hot topic, but how much money does Amtrak lose, as well as annoy or alienate customers when a PV move delays the train? Then a late train only gets later and later. I've been on several trips where a private car has cost us only 30-60 minutes but also one where we left 2+ hours late from the origin that was never made up. If Amtrak could run their service with fewer delays (that they can control) it seems *that* would be better for the bottom line instead of pulling special cars around to get a few more dollars. Chronically late trains are bad for PR.

If I had the money, I'd love a private car and to pay Amtrak to tow me around, so I can see why many people are upset. It just needs to be done where Amtrak's primary customers are not inconvenienced. I take OTP very seriously.


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## Anderson (Mar 31, 2018)

The issue is, and always has been, that the Class Is are _more_ than capable of stabbing a train for 2+ hours on their own, so it isn't clear to me how this is actually going to help OTP. I still have to wonder why Amtrak isn't able to go into their data and kick out PV moves from their calculations (especially since "Amtrak delays" include not only this but time lost to slow passenger boarding/offloading (this shows up more often than you'd think, since a lot of stops are timetabled with "simultaneous" arrival and departure, which means that if the train arrives on time it often leaves late, especially if there's even a small crowd), engine issues, and the occasional "conductor had to call the cops" stop). So, even taking OTP seriously I am hard-pressed to see this having any material impact on the overall OTP situation.


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## Trogdor (Mar 31, 2018)

Anderson said:


> a lot of stops are timetabled with "simultaneous" arrival and departure, which means that if the train arrives on time it often leaves late



This is not true. Virtuall all stops have separate scheduled arrival and departure times, with most small stops given at least 2-3 minutes of scheduled dwell time. What Amtrak doesn't do is _publish_ the arrival time, so when you look at the schedule (often even in Arrow), you are only seeing the departure time (or you only see the arrival time in cases of discharge-only stops). But internally when the schedule is built, there are separate arrival and departure times for essentially all stops.

If a train leaves a station on time and encounters no enroute delay, it will typically arrive at least 1-2 minutes "early" at the next station. This is its real scheduled arrival time, even though it isn't published anywhere.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2018)

I thought that stations that show only a time of departure..... Ah I see Trogdor already made the point that I was about to make... Thanks.

What he describes is the general practice all over the world, not just in the US, as far as stations for which only a departure time is shown in the public time table.

Indian Railways actually shares arrival and departure times for all stations where the train stops, and passing time for all stations where it does not. IR online time tables are hence a gold mine for railfans.

They also share full information about diversion routes when a train is diverted off its regular route with similar details, which frankly amazes me. Wonders of across the board computerization of upto date train dispatch planning data.

It is another matter that still there are trains that run many hours late. But even that is accurately reflected not only for a specific run but also in average delay for that service at each stop, which could help a customer plan based on something more realistic than what the timetable says!! This of coruse also leads to IR being dinged by the public for lying about delays too



since the lie is also carefully recorded for everyone to see compared to actual arrival and departure times. I guess it is hard to get over habits formed in less transparent times.


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 31, 2018)

"The issue is, and always has been, that the Class Is are more than capable of stabbing a train for 2+ hours on their own"

Other than the empire builder a few years ago (a unique situation) I don't know of any class i's regularly delaying Amtrak long distance trains.

My last long distance Amtrak trip earlier this year was on the silver star... We were on time into Tampa, 20 minutes late leaving because of adding a private car. We were further delayed with track work near Kissimmee (sun rail construction). CSX kep us moving very well. and that's CSX... Ha.

I was in the cafe car (im a lounge lizard after all!) in Tampa and personally saw multiple passengers enter the cafe car and ask the cafe attendant why there was a delay and the answer was "we are adding a private car."


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## jis (Mar 31, 2018)

Don't forget the NS meltdown on the Water Level Route when they were introducing their automatic dispatching software or something like that.



That lasted for quite a while as I recall. Long enough for me to get caught in it four times and almost miss a Chicago connection twice.


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## Trogdor (Mar 31, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Other than the empire builder a few years ago (a unique situation) I don't know of any class i's regularly delaying Amtrak long distance trains.



You must be new here...


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 31, 2018)

Trogdor said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Other than the empire builder a few years ago (a unique situation) I don't know of any class i's regularly delaying Amtrak long distance trains.
> ...


been riding Amtrak for 20+ years. Are there any recent, regularly occurring issues?

The NS deal on the water level rohte is another one... But again that was a situation that got fixed.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 31, 2018)

Well to talk about another country Germany manages to run a very fluid railroad despite having multiple charters running per day.

In their app they will show you the dwell for each station but not like Ir with stations the train doesn't stop at. Nor with any information about diversions.

But what I found unique this last summer they were closing a stretch of double track with a tunnel built in the late 1800s because they opened a new tunnel nearby. The line sees upwards of four ICE frequencies, four Inter City frequencies, four Regional Express frequencies, and four regional Bahn frequencies an hour without counting freight. So that's sixteen passenger trains in an hour and I would say about four freights an hour.

Yet they still managed to on the last weekend without the new line open run sixteen steam train charters, and hourly photo freights up the line. None of which had any affect on any of the scheduled trains. Everything ran smoothly and ontime despite the addition of sixteen steam passenger trains and the photo freight.

So it is very much possible to run charters and not interfere with normal operations. On select days in Germany there can be up to ten different steam excursions happening across the country.

My personal favorite was an engine I was firing across Thüringen that my mother was riding. She had to have an excursion ticket, and a Deutsche Bahn ticket to ride. The excursion ticket was basically guaranteeing the space on the train. While the Deutsche Bahn fare was to cover the actual travel.


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## Anderson (Mar 31, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


The Cardinal and I believe at one time the Coast Starlight had issues as well. The Builder has had multiple OTP "episodes" over the years, too, and I think the Silvers were having a bad time of it last year...and of course, this is just getting into "regular" issues. Oh, and let's not forget the Crescent's OTP as of late (which is, IIRC, partly the fault of CSX fouling a line in Atlanta).


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## crescent-zephyr (Mar 31, 2018)

Seaboard...

My understanding from the letter is that Amtrak is canceling charters because it strains the core business (takes equipment and crew away from regular trains). Not that it delays Amtrak trains.

Indeed in 2016 the reason given for #261 operating solo with no Amtrak diesel (I was on cloud 9 when I heard this news!) was lack of availble diesels. So it seems to make sense a charter needing multiple diesels and Amtrak cars could be an issue.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2018)

At least I know for a fact that in order to run the Autumn Express, it required pulling equipment out of regular passenger use, requiring substitution with other limited capacity equipment on the NEC thus reducing overall capacity offered. So there is some truth to Charters and Specials having an impact on regular operations to the detriment of regular customers. Suffice it to say that the Autumn Express actually fulfills a specific request from the Congress as I understand it.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 31, 2018)

I believe there was one year when NCTM was running their fall trip and the Autumn Express were running that they subbed Acelas in for Regional trains.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2018)

I find it difficult to believe that yanking out a P42 or two from regular rotation does not negatively affect reliability of regular operations either, specially given a situation of shortage that forces some trains that ought to be operating with two units to operate with one instead in general.


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## Lonestar648 (Mar 31, 2018)

If the group is large enough, like the game geeks on the CZ, you just take an existing train and crew. Does this mean that chartering an existing train route is no longer available? Actually, few if any extra crew or equipment are needed.


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## jis (Mar 31, 2018)

Nothing is completely off the table as far as I can tell. The escape clause that each will be individually evaluated and decided upon pretty much covers it I think. Although the bias is clear from the general tone of the instructions and what has followed in terms of actual actions since then. So we'll just have to wait and see how things unfold.


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## acelafan (Mar 31, 2018)

Just add/remove the private cars at the origin or destination stations. No work at intermediate stops. A few years ago I was on the WB Sunset and we were late, yes, probably due to a Class 1 issue, but I do not recall the reason. But I do remember we were making up time and actually got to Tucson on time. Then it all evaporated as Amtrak added a private car, it took too long for whatever reason, and we lost our place in the long freight train queue. Late arrival into LAX.

It's really not fair nor the way to treat the many other passengers on the train. If that's one of Anderson's reasons then I have to applaud him for trying to clean it up.


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## seat38a (Mar 31, 2018)

FrensicPic said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > larail.com has a notice up on their site. Also looks like the online purchase feature for public trips has been removed. In my experience, riding Amtrak trains which involved private railcars, has involved delaying the train I was on due to failing equipment on the private car, or all services aboard the train pretty much coming to a complete halt because of having to kill power to the train to attach the car. Last December on the CS, we had to stop because something from the private car attached in Oakland was dragging on the tracks. On the SWC in ABQ, adding the Tioga Pass had us on the train without power for about 45 minutes in July. This compounded the already delayed service in the dining car and added to passengers frustration aboard the train since we had no AC.
> ...


Right but if you click on book now for the Santa Barbara Vino train, it doesn't take you anywhere.


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## Anderson (Mar 31, 2018)

jis said:


> At least I know for a fact that in order to run the Autumn Express, it required pulling equipment out of regular passenger use, requiring substitution with other limited capacity equipment on the NEC thus reducing overall capacity offered. So there is some truth to Charters and Specials having an impact on regular operations to the detriment of regular customers. Suffice it to say that the Autumn Express actually fulfills a specific request from the Congress as I understand it.


IIRC the Autumn Express also runs at a relatively slow time of the year (IIRC that part of September/October is only behind January/February in terms of slower ridership), so it's less disruptive than it might be, and it doesn't do too bad on the revenue front (IIRC they've had to add frequencies in previous years to deal with demand, and I _highly_ doubt they'd do _that_ on a money-loser).

Edit: Also, IIRC the LA By Rail trips were almost always LAX-SBA, LAX-SAN (I can't recall if there was an LAX-SLO trip or two thrown in), with one or two LAX-Bay Area ones as well. Now, I understand that's there's a sort of lack of trains that originate at LAX going north right now (going south, that _should not_ be an issue), but at least in LAX there's also the fact that Amtrak has a full yard...so it's not like this involves praying that the Class I of your choosing has their act together to do the switch.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 31, 2018)

There's been a few reported instances lately where the Amtrak crews in lax were having trouble switching. As far as knowing where It's cut in, and how to switch a car in while passengers are boarding and alighting from the main part of the consist.

My source: one of my former contracts.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 31, 2018)

acelafan said:


> Just add/remove the private cars at the origin or destination stations. No work at intermediate stops. A few years ago I was on the WB Sunset and we were late, yes, probably due to a Class 1 issue, but I do not recall the reason. But I do remember we were making up time and actually got to Tucson on time. Then it all evaporated as Amtrak added a private car, it took too long for whatever reason, and we lost our place in the long freight train queue. Late arrival into LAX.
> 
> It's really not fair nor the way to treat the many other passengers on the train. If that's one of Anderson's reasons then I have to applaud him for trying to clean it up.


How about working out the bugs so that adding equipment doesn't delay the train? That seems like a better idea. I'd be interested in knowing how many private cars delayed trains versus Amtrak's own switching equipment delayed the trains.



Anderson said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > At least I know for a fact that in order to run the Autumn Express, it required pulling equipment out of regular passenger use, requiring substitution with other limited capacity equipment on the NEC thus reducing overall capacity offered. So there is some truth to Charters and Specials having an impact on regular operations to the detriment of regular customers. Suffice it to say that the Autumn Express actually fulfills a specific request from the Congress as I understand it.
> ...


The Autumn Express usually occurs around late OCT/early NOV and occurs while other specials are running. While it may not be the actually busiest times, you are approaching *THE *busiest time of year. We've lost quite a few Amfleets since this first special operated. The equipment has to be positioned and prepped for the bare bones shop count tolerance for Thanksgiving.

I see a petition has formed. Perhaps Mr. Anderson is an evil genius. I will elaborate in the CEO thread.


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## neroden (Mar 31, 2018)

"Allocated cost accounting" is garbage of the worst sort and anyone using it is a brain-damaged idiot -- yes, potentially including Mr. Anderson.

That said, if this is primarily about eliminating:

(1) Special moves where Amtrak runs a one-off train on a route they don't own, requiring complex negotiations, employee assignments, etc;

(2) Special moves where Amtrak connects or disconnects cars at an unusual location (i.e. not Albany or Denver, but somewhere where they aren't usually doing complicated stuff);

Then it's just about getting operations working, and makes sense.


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## neroden (Mar 31, 2018)

jebr said:


> The situation that will be most curious to me to see how it plays out is how they will handle St. Paul. Back when the station move was made from the Midway station to Union Depot, Amtrak shortened the station stop from 40+ minutes to under 20 minutes, but didn't adjust the overall runtime of the train or (as far as I remember) the calling times of the neighboring station stops. My understanding was that they kept the time in to allow for switching activities near the old Midway station (both private cars and potentially a cutoff coach MSP - CHI. I don't think I've ever seen the cutoff coach used in revenue service since the move to MSP, so I wonder if they'll just keep the padding but not allow any switching movements at MSP, if they'll reduce padding and not allow switching movements at MSP, or if they'll allow switching movements at MSP despite not having 30 minutes of dwell in the timetable.


Well, the St. Paul station has enough facilities to handle an add/drop on site. There is one train each way per day, and they're not scheduled to be in the station at the same time -- and there are two very long platform tracks *plus* additional sidings. I never thought it made any sense to keep adding/dropping at Midway.


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## neroden (Mar 31, 2018)

Regarding Class Is delaying Amtrak, CSX's delays on the Empire Corridor are constant. While Amtrak has had its own problems too, CSX is usually lackadaisical about dispatching, and routinely directs Amtrak behind freights or on lower-speed sidings.


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## DevalDragon (Apr 2, 2018)

Since when is a PV considered a "Charter" or "Special" Train?

Maybe I'm being too literal here, but I don't see the connection.


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## RPC (Apr 2, 2018)

I wonder if this includes Amtrak's own "special moves." My eastbound SWC was delayed an hour and a half at ABQ last summer while they set off two Chargers and four Horizon coaches.


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## jis (Apr 2, 2018)

DevalDragon said:


> Since when is a PV considered a "Charter" or "Special" Train?
> 
> Maybe I'm being too literal here, but I don't see the connection.


PVs are not Charters and Special trains. They are not the subject of the leaked memo to employees. The PV thing is a separate issue based on notifications to individual PV owners and all PV moves are not discontinued. Only moves from specific locations where the Amtrak train in question stops for considerably less than 30 mins in their schedules are involved. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## CHvision (Apr 2, 2018)

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/west-virginia/articles/2018-04-02/amtrak-asked-to-continue-charter-special-service-trains

letter to discussion


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## rtabern (Apr 2, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> acelafan said:
> 
> 
> > Just add/remove the private cars at the origin or destination stations. No work at intermediate stops. A few years ago I was on the WB Sunset and we were late, yes, probably due to a Class 1 issue, but I do not recall the reason. But I do remember we were making up time and actually got to Tucson on time. Then it all evaporated as Amtrak added a private car, it took too long for whatever reason, and we lost our place in the long freight train queue. Late arrival into LAX.
> ...



I am by no means a private car "expert"... but I am Vice President of a rail historical group that does narration on private cars... we have 7 partners where we narrate for over a 7-state region of the Upper Midwest... and I personally have been on between 60-65 moves since 2010.

I can only remember *ONE* private car move that delayed the train... this was 2016 in MSP with an IPH dome car. The funny thing was the problem wasn't because of the private car -- it was because there was something wrong with the coupler on the rear sleeping car on #28. They finally got it fixed -- but caused an hour delay. If they added an Amtrak car it would have caused the same problem because of the shoddy Superliner.

Not saying delays dont happen -- but out of 60-65 trips (probably more than the average person experiences), this was the only one I encountered.


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## jis (Apr 2, 2018)

Looks like all this is the unintended consequence of PRIIA requirement to meet break even bottom line. I was wondering what is it that was driving all this at this specific time. Apparently the deadline grows near.

The ways to meet that goal are:

First, try to move as much as you can out of what should reasonably be included as operating expense by defining items to be not operating expense. We appear to be past this point

When you reach a point of incredulity doing that, then ...

Second step, identify and remove all cost items that are considered to be nonessential to the core system. This is where we may be at the present time. If that does not work then ....

Third step ... Go into slash and burn mode. Hope we don;t get there, but we have heard rumblings of internal discussions about LD trains reorganization. Frankly, between LD trains getting reorganized and a whole host of other things, I'd prefer most of the whole host of other things at this time.


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 2, 2018)

Hopefully they never get to the mega burn and slash mode because the end result may not be worth keeping. Further proving that providing public transportation service to the general public is not profit oriented, instead is or should be customer oriented.


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## jis (Apr 3, 2018)

An interesting Blog in Trains:

Rolling back Amtrak's private car restrictions and special train ban won't be easy: Here's how to do it

A short excerpt:



> The last figure I heard was that Amtrak earned about $3.7 million in private car moves and special trains on an overall budget of $2.2 billion. That’s about .17 percent of the total budget. There’s a lot of effort that goes on behind the scenes to make that $3.7 million happen. They aren’t cheap or easy dollars to earn. You cannot provide enough money to make this attractive, so figure out something else.
> 
> Remember also, that our traditions may seem foreign and strange to someone who isn’t from Train World. When Anderson, a former airline CEO went to work as Amtrak’s new boss, I have a vision of his staff sitting him down to explain private cars. I can see them using an analogy that goes something like this: “From time to time, on our Washington-Chicago route, we carry a 1920s private car with a dozen people on it. It’s like tying a Jenny bi-plane to the back of a 777.” Then everyone ducks as the man spits his coffee across the room.


The $3.7 million is on about $181.7 million of revenue or $178 million cost, so about 2%.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 12, 2018)

When "no" no longer means "no."

Welcome to Amtrak, Mr. Anderson, where you only think you're you're in charge!!




Amtrak commits to working to preserve New River Train



> Although details were few, officials said Wednesday that they have a commitment from Amtrak to work to preserve the New River Train for its 52nd running this year.
> 
> In a press release, U.S. Rep. Evan Jenkins said he and Mike Hall, Gov. Jim Justice’s chief of staff, spoke with Amtrak President and Co-CEO Richard Anderson Wednesday afternoon about the importance of preserving the New River Train. Amtrak announced at the end of March that it would be ending charter and special service trains, putting West Virginia traditions like the New River Train and Hinton Railroad Days in jeopardy.
> 
> “I am very encouraged after our call with Richard Anderson that we have a commitment to resolving issues with the New River Train. Amtrak recognizes the importance and more than half century tradition of the New River Train and the Hinton Railroad Days. Amtrak is willing to make some limited exemptions to its ban on charter trains, and after our call, I feel confident we will be granted this exemption."As Gov. Justice launches a new tourism campaign for the great state of West Virginia, the New River Train will remain one of West Virginia’s premier tourist attractions,” Rep. Jenkins said.


While this one is public, there have been a few other "well placed calls." I'm sure you'll see other "limited exceptions in the future."


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Apr 12, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> When "no" no longer means "no."
> 
> Welcome to Amtrak, Mr. Anderson, where you only think you're you're in charge!!
> 
> ...


West Virginia politicians butting into Amtrak? The tradition continues!


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 12, 2018)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> West Virginia politicians butting into Amtrak? The tradition continues!


And so does the service. If only Pennsylvania and Ohio cared as much.................particularly, your neighbor, Rep. S. Bloom in PA. Maybe you should send him to W. VA to see how to "not" block a train through his district.


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## CHvision (Apr 12, 2018)

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/_recent_news/officials-amtrak-will-preserve-train-excursions/article_38a58a86-3e52-11e8-b352-c36cbe62c7f0.html

If this wasn't posted

--

Now, my thought is: What will happen with the private cars?


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 13, 2018)

As many voices as I've heard calling for a removal of the ban there have been some very notable silent organizations. First and foremost my first contract ever the Virginia Museum of Transportation. They've been completely silent.

But I think we shall see some things change.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 15, 2018)

I see an Amtrak Tip Toe Through The Tulips is an allowed exceptions. There are specials running in May. Additionally, there are trains assisting a tournament involving the PGA.

I see quite a bit of forthcoming private car movements being confirmed.

However, I did see a long time charter group asking for a long, drawn out move involving a special movement, another railroad and various reverse moves or complete run arounds on said territory. A counter proposal was made to eliminate some of those moves and the charter group didn't think it could work. So, that particular charter did not operate. A few months ago, the railroad may have bitten the bullet. This is why I suggested taking our time and seeing how things evolve on a case by case basis. A lot of it will be determined by the impact on operations.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 15, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I see an Amtrak Tip Toe Through The Tulips is an allowed exceptions. There are specials running in May. Additionally, there are trains assisting a tournament involving the PGA.
> 
> I see quite a bit of forthcoming private car movements being confirmed.
> 
> However, I did see a long time charter group asking for a long, drawn out move involving a special movement, another railroad and various reverse moves or complete run arounds on said territory. A counter proposal was made to eliminate some of those moves and the charter group didn't think it could work. So, that particular charter did not operate. A few months ago, the railroad may have bitten the bullet. This is why I suggested taking our time and seeing how things evolve on a case by case basis. A lot of it will be determined by the impact on operations.


I think I know exactly which group that is too. Sounds like things are getting ever better for the industry I've devoted some years to. Hopefully things will keep getting better. Despite the fact I'm quitting as soon as I can find a better gig.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2018)

jis said:


> Looks like all this is the unintended consequence of PRIIA requirement to meet break even bottom line. I was wondering what is it that was driving all this at this specific time. Apparently the deadline grows near.
> 
> The ways to meet that goal are:
> 
> ...


These are not the ways to meet that goal. These are the ways to be a complete blithering idiot who doesn't understand economies-of-scale businesses.

Is Mr. Anderson a complete blithering idiot? We know Thomas Downs was. I didn't think Mr. Anderson was.

The way you break even in an economies-of-scale business is to expand revenue. Never to cut costs. If you cut costs you lose economies of scale. The only time it makes sense to cut costs is if you're not getting any economies of scale out of them (so, bye bye PPCs).

Even Warrington the much-maligned understood this. I still think Anderson understnds it, but we'll see.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I see an Amtrak Tip Toe Through The Tulips is an allowed exceptions. There are specials running in May. Additionally, there are trains assisting a tournament involving the PGA.
> 
> I see quite a bit of forthcoming private car movements being confirmed.
> 
> However, I did see a long time charter group asking for a long, drawn out move involving a special movement, another railroad and various reverse moves or complete run arounds on said territory. A counter proposal was made to eliminate some of those moves and the charter group didn't think it could work. So, that particular charter did not operate. A few months ago, the railroad may have bitten the bullet. This is why I suggested taking our time and seeing how things evolve on a case by case basis. A lot of it will be determined by the impact on operations.


That's an interesting anecdote because that's *entirely reasonable* on Amtrak's part.
I mean, if a group says "We want to run a charter from Boston to Syracuse", or even "We want to run a charter to Binghamton, by whatever route you can come up with", that's reasonable. Asking for a long, drawn-out route with multiple railroads, multiple runarounds and multiple reverse moves and *rejecting a counteroffer*... uh, that really is a distraction.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > West Virginia politicians butting into Amtrak? The tradition continues!
> ...


Pennsylvania's being redistricted this year, since the state Supreme Court ruled that the gerrymander violated the state constitution. In the new districts -- more competitive -- it may be possible to elect some representatives who care quite a bit more. Good luck, PhillyAmtrakFan... pay attention to those new Congressional races.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> The Autumn Express usually occurs around late OCT/early NOV and occurs while other specials are running. While it may not be the actually busiest times, you are approaching *THE *busiest time of year. We've lost quite a few Amfleets since this first special operated. The equipment has to be positioned and prepped for the bare bones shop count tolerance for Thanksgiving.


So do it during a different time period with lower demand. Given the people who routinely fill up the Autumn Express, I feel certain they could sell out a "Valentine's Day Express" just as well, and that really is the least busy time of year. That's if the host railroads can get a handle on their weather problems. :-( And if Amtrak could manage to fix the snow infiltration problem on certain Amfleets (why doesn't this get fixed when they go into the shop?!? it is only some of them so it is a defect)


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## bretton88 (Apr 16, 2018)

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > The Autumn Express usually occurs around late OCT/early NOV and occurs while other specials are running. While it may not be the actually busiest times, you are approaching *THE *busiest time of year. We've lost quite a few Amfleets since this first special operated. The equipment has to be positioned and prepped for the bare bones shop count tolerance for Thanksgiving.
> ...


Except you don't have the autumn leaves to sell as the reason for the train. Usually you don't run a special train because you feel like it. I would think patronage would drop significantly in the winter vs the fall.


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## CHvision (Apr 16, 2018)

Private cars going along the Northeast seems to be operating regularly with these events showing.. My thoughts is if the Midwest and Southeast (as in CA) would be restored (allowing Private cars in the rear of the train for special passenger events)


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 16, 2018)

They weren't really cut off. The current regime doesn't have the desire for jumping though hoops to pick them up and drop them off at outlying locations. Contrary to Rtbern's proclamation, adding and dropping equipment in areas without time allotted in the timetable and scheduled personnel on hand adds to delays....even IF the private car owners pick up the tab.


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## cirdan (Apr 17, 2018)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like all this is the unintended consequence of PRIIA requirement to meet break even bottom line. I was wondering what is it that was driving all this at this specific time. Apparently the deadline grows near.
> ...


The problem is, to leverage economies of scale you need to expand service.

But if you want to expand you need

1) more equipment, a lot of it.

2) cooperation from railroads

3) preferably strong political backing so these things actually happen rather than just turn into money being spent on studies and yet more studies.

I don't really see the stars aligning to make any of this happen soon.

As we don't want slash and burn, the best we can hope for is to cling onto what we have and hope it flies below the radar.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Apr 17, 2018)

bretton88 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> > Thirdrail7 said:
> ...


I think it still has the potential to be successful if it is deemed worthy of the effort. In past years, the Autumn Express often sold out easily for two days. While it only operated in the Northeast, a similar operation in California or Florida would have the same scenery every season, while some mountainous and far northern routes could be advertised for their snowy scenery. Although it may not be as popular as the Autumn trains, I think they could sell out at least one day a year this way.


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## Palmetto (Apr 17, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > I see an Amtrak Tip Toe Through The Tulips is an allowed exceptions. There are specials running in May. Additionally, there are trains assisting a tournament involving the PGA.
> ...


I guess this means you've abandoned plans to get your own PV?


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## Trogdor (Apr 17, 2018)

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I think it still has the potential to be successful if it is deemed worthy of the effort. In past years, the Autumn Express often sold out easily for two days. While it only operated in the Northeast, a similar operation in California or Florida would have the same scenery every season, while some mountainous and far northern routes could be advertised for their snowy scenery. Although it may not be as popular as the Autumn trains, I think they could sell out at least one day a year this way.


But a similar operation in Florida or California would require deadheading equipment there and back, taking it out of service for a week or more. In theory, the Northeast train could operate with minimal equipment shifting (though, for some unknown reason, the first year they ran it they decided to deadhead those godawful Horizon cars from Chicago to run it, but later on it was just Amfleets), and the weekend schedule has lower equipment needs than weekdays anyway. I can’t speak to equipment maintenance and inspection needs, but in basic numbers, the Autumn Express is basically two regional consists joined together (plus a couple special cars such as the 9800, and whatever else they have laying around).

Florida doesn’t have any spare equipment other than what’s needed to protect the Silvers (which don’t have a weekday/weekend variation in schedules, so you can’t just use an idle consist or two) and California doesn’t have enough (and the equipment is mostly California-owned or leased, so Amtrak can’t just use it as they want). In fact, I think Capitol Corridor is the only non-Northeast route that runs less service on weekends than weekdays (well, there’s the early morning Hiawatha that doesn’t run on Sundays). Even routes that have weekend vs weekday schedules run essentially the same service, just in different time slots. So, there might not even be any spare equipment to do this in California either, even if Caltrans was agreeable to it.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 17, 2018)

Palmetto said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Thirdrail7 said:
> ...


Nope I'm still in the market. It's about to be a buyers market so I'm all in. I have other uses for a PV mainly being my mobile home without the stigma that comes from it. As much as I travel and am on the road it would be nice to take my home with me. Best of both worlds.


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## Skyline (Apr 17, 2018)

Maybe the PV owners should start looking into running their cars only on tourist railroads (compatible gauge of course). That would be a more "natural" fit than regular Amtrak service. There could be a win-win here if smart minds combine.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 17, 2018)

Or we can do what I've been doing and meeting on the hill. One operator has some serious heavyweight pulling for him. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the pictures of the meeting. But I think we shall see some improvements.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 17, 2018)

Trogdor said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it still has the potential to be successful if it is deemed worthy of the effort. In past years, the Autumn Express often sold out easily for two days. While it only operated in the Northeast, a similar operation in California or Florida would have the same scenery every season, while some mountainous and far northern routes could be advertised for their snowy scenery. Although it may not be as popular as the Autumn trains, I think they could sell out at least one day a year this way.
> ...



They deadheaded the horizon fleet because they were headed east for Thanksgiving. After the special, the Amfleets headed west for another special. That is the point that most people seem to miss. The Autumn Express operates since the equipment is gathered for other specials that are running around the same time period. To gather the equipment and remove it from daily use for a one off special is EXACTLY what our new CEO wishes to avoid. Using it on three specials in close proximity has a bit more merit.


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## CHvision (Apr 19, 2018)

http://www.dearingrailroad.com/index.html

Dearing is back on track


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## Ryan (Apr 19, 2018)

You have a colon at the end of your link that breaks it.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 19, 2018)

Ryan said:


> You have a colon at the end of your link that breaks it.


Fixed it. Good catch!


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 19, 2018)

Amtrak has just posted their guidelines for private cars and charters. I'm not at my computer so hopefully someone else can link to it.

It isn't as bad as we thought but it still needs work. Hopefully we can still get some changes.


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## cpotisch (Apr 19, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Amtrak has just posted their guidelines for private cars and charters. I'm not at my computer so hopefully someone else can link to it.
> 
> It isn't as bad as we thought but it still needs work. Hopefully we can still get some changes.


Fingers crossed.


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## CHvision (Apr 19, 2018)

*Fixing the error of the article: Dearing PV

Guidelines

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/Amtrak-Private-Car-Guidelines-041818.pdf


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## Ryan (Apr 19, 2018)

The staff already fixed it in your first post.


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## seat38a (Apr 19, 2018)

Well looks like special trains to Santa Barbara our gone. Only Surfliner trains that private cars are allowed on are 562 and 565 which are LA-SAN train. These two trains have the train consist sitting over night in LA and SD so makes sense.


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## CHvision (Apr 19, 2018)

Ryan said:


> The staff already fixed it in your first post.


I saw the edit and gave a check mark,

(The colon was suppose to be by Dearing but made a typo out of it)

Thanks


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## jis (Apr 19, 2018)

There is one bit of possible ambiguity that needs to be clarified.

The Amtrak document says that cars can only be added or removed at those designated stations. There are certain possibilities of doing a round trip where the car is neither adde3d, not removed at the away destination. Are those going to be allowed?

For example, if a car is attached at Emeryville to a train to Bakersfield, and it just stays with the consist at Bakersfield and returns to Emeryville on the same consist, is that allowed, even though Bakersfield is not listed as an originating/terminating point?

Strict reading would suggest this is not allowed. Logic does not dictate that such restriction makes much sense.

maybe it is time for the West Virginia Congressman and Senator to do a little more squeezing of appropriate body part(s) to get a WV location added to the car add/drop list.






BTW, the Charter Train Guidelines specifically excludes Amtrak specials, so at least in theory things like the Autumn Express are not covered by these Guidelines.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 19, 2018)

jis said:


> There is one bit of possible ambiguity that needs to be clarified.
> 
> The Amtrak document says that cars can only be added or removed at those designated stations. There are certain possibilities of doing a round trip where the car is neither adde3d, not removed at the away destination. Are those going to be allowed?
> 
> ...


It also doesn't cover Oregon and I can tell you those congressmen are quite perturbed about it. Anderson likely will be on really thin ice congressionally speaking.


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## jis (Apr 19, 2018)

Portland OR for 27, 28 almost seems like an omission error.

BTW, even at Seattle, I am almost certain that they will not attach/detach PVs to the Talgos, even though one could come to believe that they might from that table. The only relevant trains there are 7, 8, 11, 14.

The only other possibility in Oregon is 11/14, which will probably hit head on into the no inconvenience to regular passengers clause in some way or the other.

At the end of the day, if the folks on the Hill put in a list of additional places, where PVs must be handled, in the next Appropriation for Amtrak, there will be much more clarity about what is and what isn't. All that can be done then is to adjust schedules to minimize inconvenience to everyone.

Of course, we will see how all this plays out. Amtrak has very little leverage as long as it critically depends on direct subsidies from the legislature. The situation with F&B shows what can happen.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 19, 2018)

The fact that St. Paul remains shows you that Amtrak at least looked at where regular private customers are. Huge win for the 261 group.


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## Trogdor (Apr 19, 2018)

jis said:


> For example, if a car is attached at Emeryville to a train to Bakersfield, and it just stays with the consist at Bakersfield and returns to Emeryville on the same consist, is that allowed, even though Bakersfield is not listed as an originating/terminating point?
> 
> Strict reading would suggest this is not allowed. Logic does not dictate that such restriction makes much sense.


Logic would suggest not allowing PVs on the San Joaquin if they can’t get added/removed as Bakersfield, unless they have MU cables to allow running mid-consist. Otherwise the engineer wouldn’t be able to run the train in one direction.


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## jis (Apr 19, 2018)

Trogdor said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > For example, if a car is attached at Emeryville to a train to Bakersfield, and it just stays with the consist at Bakersfield and returns to Emeryville on the same consist, is that allowed, even though Bakersfield is not listed as an originating/terminating point?
> ...


It is always true that the cars must have the capability to operate in the train to which they are to be attached without disrupting the train. So clearly only cars that are adequately equipped would be usable. Since they do allow PVs on the 6xx Keystones, which are push pull too (like the San Joaquins) I suspect that there are several PVs that are equipped with pass through control cable connectors. Otherwise they would not have mentioned the 6xxs as OK for PVs.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 19, 2018)

Braddock Inn has a pass thru MU. Any if the former commuter cars from MARC do. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if more owners tried to get the capability. As far as on the hill the republicans are more agitated by the charter problems, and private car problems. While the democrats are trying not to rock the boat.

The only major democratic support is coming from West Virginia and potentially Oregon if Senator Merkeley signs on.


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## TinCan782 (Apr 19, 2018)

Didn't see this link posted with the others above...people are always asking "how much"

*Addendum No. 6 to Private Car Tariff*

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/Private-Car-Tariff-Rates-Addendum-6-050118.pdf


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## seat38a (Apr 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The fact that St. Paul remains shows you that Amtrak at least looked at where regular private customers are. Huge win for the 261 group.





> 7, 8 (pickup if train is on time)


So if the train is late then the PV is SOL???


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 19, 2018)

jis said:


> There is one bit of possible ambiguity that needs to be clarified.
> 
> The Amtrak document says that cars can only be added or removed at those designated stations. There are certain possibilities of doing a round trip where the car is neither adde3d, not removed at the away destination. Are those going to be allowed?
> 
> ...


That is operationally different Jis. This is what I often refer to when I differentiate "initial terminal" versus "turnaround point/turnaround service". In your example, Bakersfield is a turnaround point and they would look at it on a case by case basis to see it would interfere with any turns. Since the trip would actually be EMY-EMY, it likely wouldn't be an issue.



jis said:


> Portland OR for 27, 28 almost seems like an omission error.
> 
> BTW, even at Seattle, I am almost certain that they will not attach/detach PVs to the Talgos, even though one could come to believe that they might from that table. The only relevant trains there are 7, 8, 11, 14.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure Por is an omission. They may want the flexibility to run the trains in reverse order. If you had a private car in the mix, it would delay the train.



FrensicPic said:


> Didn't see this link posted with the others above...people are always asking "how much"
> 
> *Addendum No. 6 to Private Car Tariff*
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/Private-Car-Tariff-Rates-Addendum-6-050118.pdf


Look at those rates. One of the things that struck me about the memo was the statement that Amtrak would only repair cars that were in a consist. While I can understand the liability of not wanting a private car in your shop (you scratched my paint, the wheel true is out of spec), it's not like Amtrak didn't charge them for every turn of the wrench, shift of plug.

Are you telling me these repairs didn't generate revenue?



seat38a said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that St. Paul remains shows you that Amtrak at least looked at where regular private customers are. Huge win for the 261 group.
> ...


It seems like it. They'll probably put words summarizing that position in the operating agreement. If you sign it, you know what you're in for.


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## CHvision (Apr 19, 2018)

LA Rail will continue to use private cars on Amtrak for their trips. However, changes are made with route/station adjustments.


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## seat38a (Apr 19, 2018)

CHvision said:


> LA Rail will continue to use private cars on Amtrak for their trips. However, changes are made with route/station adjustments.


But how are they going to operate the Santa Barbara Wine train when? Not sure how this can be adjusted when the only Surfliner trains PV's are allowed originate and terminate in LA and SD.


----------



## TiBike (Apr 19, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > There is one bit of possible ambiguity that needs to be clarified.
> ...



If you assume that the document was carefully written, the answer would be "no". The Bay Area-bound San Joaquins terminate in Oakland, and Oakland is not on the list. The Zephyr is the only train that terminates in Emeryville.


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## CHvision (Apr 19, 2018)

seat38a said:


> *But how are they going to operate the Santa Barbara Wine train when?* Not sure how this can be adjusted when the only Surfliner trains PV's are allowed originate and terminate in LA and SD.


From the representatives on the line, their answer was to check back for updates or call for further details.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 19, 2018)

Well right now I've heard conductor Bill Hattrick owner of Overland Trail is mothballing his car at a scrapyard if things don't change. Several other cars have been mothballed.

And others are likely to come.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 19, 2018)

TiBike said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...



Designated repair facilities at initial terminals were not listed, Tibike. Technically, the Zephyr doesn't terminate in Emy any more than train 2126 (an acela on the corridor) terminates in NYP or train 235 terminates in ALB. The Zephyr actually deadheads from EMY between OAK for servicing. Hence, OAK is the initial terminal and EMY is the originating passenger terminal. For the reverse, CHI is the originating passenger terminal while 14th Street Yard is the initial terminal.

As explained, operations at initial terminals and yards will remains the same. This is because initial terminals are were the train is assembled and adding them should not at to delays. They have changed for the stations where moves on the equipment are required.

At least that is how it was explained to us. What happens in CA may differ which is why they said it would be examined on a case by case basis.


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## TinCan782 (Apr 19, 2018)

CHvision said:


> LA Rail will continue to use private cars on Amtrak for their trips. However, changes are made with route/station adjustments.


No more San Diego or Santa Barbara trips for the time being. Long distance, perhaps. Spoke to Bill Hatrick this afternoon at LAUPT, the new rates aren't going to help either.


----------



## seat38a (Apr 19, 2018)

FrensicPic said:


> CHvision said:
> 
> 
> > LA Rail will continue to use private cars on Amtrak for their trips. However, changes are made with route/station adjustments.
> ...


It will definitely be tricky for a while. The 700 series trains are notorious for running late already so it probably won't help their case. Also, now train 759 leaves LAUS at 4:09AM so it can be used by Ventura County commuters to SB so thats unusable for the wine train.


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## CHvision (Apr 19, 2018)

Actually, from what I posted earlier, trips are being canned (Long distance might stay for a price)


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## TinCan782 (Apr 19, 2018)

seat38a said:


> FrensicPic said:
> 
> 
> > CHvision said:
> ...


And 759 only operates Monday thru Friday which won't matter for a Saturday or Sunday wine train.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Apr 20, 2018)

I'm pretty sure that those trains were chosen for a reason. And that is to discourage private cars from going to SAN. Just like the thirty minute rule was designed to do something similar as well.


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## TinCan782 (Apr 20, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I'm pretty sure that those trains were chosen for a reason. And that is to discourage private cars from going to SAN. Just like the thirty minute rule was designed to do something similar as well.


Thirty minute rule: The less than 30 minute dwell at LAUS eliminated "through" Pacific Surfliners for PV's us use for San Diego and Santa Barbara trips.

Actually, Amtrak often adds/removes a Surfliner coach at LA for some through trains... the same way as it did with some PV's...at the station platform!


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## seat38a (Apr 20, 2018)

Couple things I don't get. Why does it take so long to couple and uncouple railcars at Amtrak? This whole 20+ minutes to couple and decouple engines and cars just does not happen on other trains of the world. There are many trains that leave the station coupled and then separate mid-route and it all happens within couple of minutes from what I have experienced on Swiss Rail and ViaRail Corridor Trains.

I've been on Surfliners where they need to add a second engine or extra car at LAUS so they can take it down to San Diego and I've easily sat there 30+ minutes after the "bump" without power. Same on the San Joaquins.

The Surfliner is heavily used by people who commute for work so I think it is fine that Amtrak is trying to keep good time, BUT on Saturday's and three day weekends, they should really make an exception for PV's at least on the Surfliners. LOSSAN already run specially timed 1000 series trains on the weekends and holidays and from what I've heard consistently from the train attendant and the conductors is that Saturdays are generally the slowest day of the week.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 20, 2018)

there are lots of factors...

Once you add a car, you have to cut the brakes in and then perform a brake test. If the cars have been sitting by themselves, they won't be charged with air so this will add a few moments and then that car(a) needs to be walked and visually inspected during a brake test to see that all brakes on that car both apply (walk the cars) and release (walk cars again). The engineer also has to perform a leakage test to make sure the new car, combined with existing consist, have working brakes with only minimul leakage (im emberassssed to say I don't remember what it is anymore.. 5 lbs.)

So that's 1 thing that takes some time....


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> there are lots of factors...
> 
> Once you add a car, you have to cut the brakes in and then perform a brake test. If the cars have been sitting by themselves, they won't be charged with air so this will add a few moments and then that car(a) needs to be walked and visually inspected during a brake test to see that all brakes on that car both apply (walk the cars) and release (walk cars again). The engineer also has to perform a leakage test to make sure the new car, combined with existing consist, have working brakes with only minimul leakage (im emberassssed to say I don't remember what it is anymore.. 5 lbs.)
> 
> So that's 1 thing that takes some time....


That is very accurate. Now there are some other useless things we have to do to you forgot. Why Amtrak has to do a brake test when they back up before coupling up. Especially when the train already has proven over the course of miles it has functional brakes.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 21, 2018)

Does Amtrak change the air situation before backing up? For example do they detach a monkey tail on the back of the train?


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## CHvision (Apr 21, 2018)

For example, if the Cedar Rapids run along the Empire Builder from Chicago, IL to St. Paul. MN, can the special car with passengers (on board the special car) run along the route? or it has to be terminal by terminal?


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2018)

CHvision said:


> For example, if the Cedar Rapids run along the Empire Builder from Chicago, IL to St. Paul. MN, can the special car with passengers run along the route? or it has to be terminal by terminal?


If the train is on time it can be cut off at MSP. Don't worry there are several of us PV guys lobbying for more cut offs. Me personally I'm after Huntington (for friends cars) and Portland (for my car). Right now I'm prepping two of the Huntington Cars to move elsewhere.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> CHvision said:
> 
> 
> > For example, if the Cedar Rapids run along the Empire Builder from Chicago, IL to St. Paul. MN, can the special car with passengers run along the route? or it has to be terminal by terminal?
> ...


Where is Borden planning to move her cars?


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2018)

jis said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > CHvision said:
> ...


Savannah, GA. CP Huntington is currently homeless but we're moving their two out tomorrow on 50. Then my car Willamette Heights if they accept my offer I put in this morning to buy it. Will probably be moving to Seattle because I can't use it out of Portland. It has some work before it can be Amtraked so I probably could send it to Beaverton Creek and buy the siding I've been eyeing. But I'm Leary of doing that till Portland is approved for 11/14, 27/28


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## seat38a (Apr 21, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > there are lots of factors...
> ...


So more of a Amtrak procedural/policy delay or equipment too old(Amtrak equipment) that it takes too much time? When they coupled and decoupled the LRC cars on ViaRail, I was excepting 30+ minutes because of experience on Amtrak, but after like less than a minute of power outage, we were on our way.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2018)

seat38a said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


That's because of how incompetent some switch crews are. I'm not saying all are incompetent but there are quite a few that are.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 21, 2018)

all of the rules I described were rules I learned when I was a conductor on a Shortline railroad. They are FRA rules as far as I know.

Dropping cars is a faster procedure... Drop the cars, re-attach monkey hose / back up hose if applicable, quick apply and release break test from back of train, and you're good to go.

I have no clue how LRC cars, or other European style cars work.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2018)

I suspect that HEP and Trainline connectors bring in some additional issues.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 21, 2018)

jis said:


> I suspect that HEP and Trainline connectors bring in some additional issues.


What's a trainline connector?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 21, 2018)

Communications connector. Think PA system.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 21, 2018)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Communications connector. Think PA system.


Do any privates have those? I've never heard the LSA when riding in a private. Thankfully! Ha.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 21, 2018)

One of the main things left out (aside from the fact that this isn't Canada and there are different regulations) is the aforementioned blue flag rules. If mechanical is involved, things take time and that is due to federal regulations governing their movement between equipment...particularly if the moves are made on a main track.

Here is an example from the The Engine Switcharoo thread.



Guest said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Can't attach and detach the power cables while the train is energized, so the process would be more like.
> ...






Seaboard92 said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > So that's 1 thing that takes some time....
> ...


Actually, they aren't typically testing the brakes. They are testing the back up hose/valve or the emergency valve to make sure if an emergency occurs, the train can be stopped A.S.A.P. Just because the brakes worked from the engine doesn't necessarily mean that they will work from another valve at the opposite end of the train. That is why it is a federal rule that not only will brake tests be performed when controlling ends change, a running test must be performed.

Debris has been known to fly up and partially close angle cocks which actually led to the back up hose/ valve or emergency valve test rule. The rule was also amended to test it where the back up move will begin. Otherwise, when you back up, something drives in front of you and when you place the train in emergency....and it doesn't dump, you aren't surprised.

But, I bet you didn't think of that.



seat38a said:


> So more of a Amtrak procedural/policy delay or equipment too old(Amtrak equipment) that it takes too much time? When they coupled and decoupled the LRC cars on ViaRail, I was excepting 30+ minutes because of experience on Amtrak, but after like less than a minute of power outage, we were on our way.


Replace "K Tower" with the appropriate dispatcher and you have the basic procedures for mechanical working on a train outside of a r.i.p track, car servicing and/or engine repair track.



Seaboard92 said:


> That's because of how incompetent some switch crews are. I'm not saying all are incompetent but there are quite a few that are.


Perhaps you should use the word inexperienced. There are crews that rarely have to switch cars or get in between the equipment. That is because they work in areas without yards or work through movements. Therefore, when they finally comes time to switch cars or there is an emergency, they may have to apply rules and procedures that they may not have used in the field for years. So, they take their time.

If you don't use it, you lose it and that assumes you had it to begin with. Do you remember every single driving regulation?


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2018)

I wasn't referring to HUN for the switch crew comment. PDX is pretty bad but I give them credit they don't build trains there regularly. But WAS incredibly slow coming in last week on 50 took us to Ivy city for two hours. It would have been faster to leave us on 26 and then pull the consist out. And grab the other switch crew and throw us over on thirty.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 21, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I wasn't referring to HUN for the switch crew comment. PDX is pretty bad but I give them credit they don't build trains there regularly. But WAS incredibly slow coming in last week on 50 took us to Ivy city for two hours. It would have been faster to leave us on 26 and then pull the consist out. And grab the other switch crew and throw us over on thirty.



And how do you know there was an additional switch crew available to make this move? You DO realize the NEC altered their manpower (to save money) and abolished numerous yard crews from BOS-WAS, right? WTC lost 13 switching crews and all of their utility employees over the last year. If a few late trains show up at the same time, regular trains can take a hit. The NYT district lost so many, the new boss realized had to bring some back so the could respond during a disruption. PHL had the same issue and added an additional crew. NHV was down to one.

Again, you talk about things with a only a peripheral understanding and this probably why they'd rather not have private cars around. They barely have enough manpower to switch the train based upon things being on time...which is rarely the case.

Pretty soon, they'll be back to fixed consists.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 21, 2018)

There was someone else running around actually. I'm not looking forward to the fixed consists.


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## Acela150 (Apr 21, 2018)

Richard Anderson has screwed the pooch.. And ticked off the entire railfanning community. The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical Society had planned a trip with exclusively PV and Bennett Levin's E8's. To and From Altoona. That trip is now cancelled. #FireRichardAnderson

http://www.prrths.com/conventions/Cancelled_trip_letter.pdf


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## jis (Apr 21, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> > Communications connector. Think PA system.
> ...


Similar to the MU connector. They would typically be just pass-through, if they are there.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 21, 2018)

Acela150 said:


> Richard Anderson has screwed the pooch.. And ticked off the entire railfanning community. The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical Society had planned a trip with exclusively PV and Bennett Levin's E8's. To and From Altoona. That trip is now cancelled. #FireRichardAnderson
> 
> http://www.prrths.com/conventions/Cancelled_trip_letter.pdf


The link isn't working.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 21, 2018)

"Actually, they aren't typically testing the brakes. They are testing the back up hose/valve or the emergency valve to make sure if an emergency occurs, the train can be stopped A.S.A.P."

Ah yes!!! I remember hearing the air dump whenever I ride the Carbondale trains before the back up move.

On the shortline where I worked, we just tapped the back up whistle to make sure it had air.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 21, 2018)

jis said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Just-Thinking-51 said:
> ...


Wait... Is it a PA line... Or MU line?

Do privates typically have either?


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## jis (Apr 21, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > crescent-zephyr said:
> ...


I was thinking MU line, but I think it is called the Comm Line. Someone like Thirdrail may be able to provide the right terminology.

Seaboard mentioned that he know several PV that have pass throughs when this was brought up elsewhere.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 21, 2018)

www.prrths.com/conventions/Cancelled_trip_letter.pdf



> To the members of the PRR T&HS, and all the riders on the
> Pennsylvania Inspection Trip to Altoona.
> It is with deepest regret and sorrow to inform all that despite the
> tremendous effort on the part of Bennett Levin, who I am forever
> ...


Oooph. "This is definitely not the last that will be said about all of this" doesn't sound good. It isn't the railfan community I'd be concerned about ticking off. I'd be concerned about ticking off the Altoona representatives and the Pennsylvania legislature. Impacting their economies is a recipe for retaliation.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 21, 2018)

Gotcha... I could see privates needing to have an MU line installed.

That moves to another question... Are MU lines always hooked up on Amtrak trains, just in case they are needed? Obviously they aren't typically used on a LD train.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2018)

I don't believe all Amtrak LD cars are even equipped with MU lines. I know they were not hooked up on the Silver Meteor last Saturday. Again Thirdrail can probably provide facts rather than anecdotes.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 21, 2018)

jis said:


> I don't believe all Amtrak LD cars are even equipped with MU lines. I know they were not hooked up on the Silver Meteor last Saturday. Again Thirdrail can probably provide facts rather than anecdotes.



Let me help you out. Typically, when adding equipment, you'll make the following connections.

Air system:

Brake pipe

Main reservoir

Electrical system:

480 volt cables (4 cables-typically used for HEP and trainline power supply)

Communication cable(1 cable-typically for communication systems, on board detection systems, doors and other low voltage systems)

On push pull equipment

All of the above plus the propulsion cable that will travel the length of the train.

MU cables are typically used between two engines.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2018)

Thirdrail, Thanks! I am never sure about the exact terminology, since it is far removed from day to day things that I do.


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## neroden (Apr 22, 2018)

The phrase "decided not to honor the agreement that we already had with them" is a pretty nasty warning sign. If correct, well, it's one thing to refuse deals in the future, it's another to cancel deals already made; that causes lawsuits for damages. Politicians ain't gonna be happy either.

I am beginning to think Mr. Anderson is an idiot. I could make better decisions than this, even if I had essentially the same agenda.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 22, 2018)

Some PVs have a pass thru MU. The one I'm currently working (like right now) has a pass thru MU. And our sister car were installing it next month.

We took fifteen minutes to add it today but only five minutes late at the next stop. We didn't delay the train to serious. Should be ontime by Next station


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 22, 2018)

neroden said:


> . Politicians ain't gonna be happy either.


This is a concern...and long after he is gone, we'll still have to deal with the fallout.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 22, 2018)

The only reason New River is likely to run this year will be because they successfully got congress involved. And I highly recommend other operators especially Leavenworth Snow Train to consider knowing what I know they would lose 50k at the current rate.


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## CHvision (Apr 24, 2018)

Sad to say, here's the quote:

"From the Greatness of Conductor Bill Hatrick of LA Rail confirming there will be no stay of execution ~ Regardless of train crew jobs, private car owners relying on riders & passengers already booked, we're done for the foreseeable future."


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## TinCan782 (Apr 24, 2018)

CHvision said:


> Sad to say, here's the quote:
> 
> "From the Greatness of Conductor Bill Hatrick of LA Rail confirming there will be no stay of execution ~ Regardless of train crew jobs, private car owners relying on riders & passengers already booked, we're done for the foreseeable future."


I know Bill and Debbie. This was their livelihood, a family business of which they were so enthusiastic and passionate about. They and everyone I've met at LA Rail are great people to ride with ... "regular" people...not the elite that PV owners are often painted to be. This is so sad for them.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 24, 2018)

FrensicPic said:


> CHvision said:
> 
> 
> > Sad to say, here's the quote:
> ...


I know it's incredibly sad because it is their entire livelihood. And bill is such an amazing man. On trips I've worked with his car in the consist. He went way out of his way to punch every kids ticket in the entire thirty car consist. Not just his, but every car. He's such an amazing person. Honestly I'm upset about my job as well. But not as upset as I am as Bill's livelihood.


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## jis (Apr 25, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe all Amtrak LD cars are even equipped with MU lines. I know they were not hooked up on the Silver Meteor last Saturday. Again Thirdrail can probably provide facts rather than anecdotes.
> ...


Thirdrail, one thing I have been wondering about is that since there is reliable wireless remote control standards like Locotrol available, why is that not used? Is it because there are additional control signals that Locotrol cannot carry, that are carried on the Propulsion Line? Thanks.

Mods: Perhaps this subthread deserves its own thread. Please do as you see fit.


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## seat38a (Apr 26, 2018)

I remember watching a show about the ringling brothers circus train and how it was pulled by freight locomotives. So did they have special insurance for the train which allowed it to be pulled by freight loco instead of Amtrak?


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## railiner (Apr 26, 2018)

neroden said:


> The phrase "decided not to honor the agreement that we already had with them" is a pretty nasty warning sign. If correct, well, it's one thing to refuse deals in the future, it's another to cancel deals already made; that causes lawsuits for damages. Politicians ain't gonna be happy either.
> 
> I am beginning to think Mr. Anderson is an idiot. I could make better decisions than this, even if I had essentially the same agenda.


I have no knowledge of the actual agreement, but....I wouldn't be at all surprised if the agreement, at the insistence of Amtrak's legal department, had a clause that let Amtrak cancel for whatever reason they chose, with no repercussion's....so they would not be liable to any lawsuits....


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 26, 2018)

Well a lesser known fact is Amtrak charter train contracts come literally at the last minute. It's not on heard of for the contract to be signed the day of. And this is the standard Amtrak MO that myself, and several other industry insiders have been fighting with for over a decade.

So if they were working under the provisional yes from Amtrak pending contract to be signed day of or the few days before. I can see where Amtrak can get away legally Without penalty. It's messed up because when contracting private cars we have to put out non refundable discounts in advance to hold the car for use.

Knowing that I would say the event organizers for the special canceled with the E units are probably losing in the neighborhood of 10k. While Amtrak loses no money, and can get away with it. Amtrak also can then say we denied it for "safety, or to focus on our core mission" and spin that so people believe it.

In all honesty the last several years Amtrak has had all the cards and they are majorly stacked against us. The new tariff that came out a few days ago includes a clause that "Amtrak can modify the tariff at anytime at Amtrak's discretion" which previously wasn't there. Which in fact means they can raise their price at any time forcing us to cancel trains.

If the price they raise it to isn't profitable for us to run we have to cancel and lose face. And deal with disgruntled passengers again Amtrak gets away with it. There are several of us worrying that Amtrak is going to try a massive increase days before a large charter involving 30 private cars, and 6,000 paying passengers forcing it to be cancelled last minute.

And who looks bad in that Amtrak or the charter operator? Hence the entire industry is majorly on edge right now and we are all trying to find back up plans. Their could possibly be some unlikely saviors this fall of Amtrak does what I predict they will.

For example my boss Tom who tried to run the Susquehanna Trip was running a trip back in the early 2000s. Amtrak had set out a reasonable price at the beginning. Two weeks out when the contract came due Amtrak doubled the price and they barely broke even in fact I think they lost a few thousand once all was said in done. But they had already spent the money to line up cars so they were in a bind. And one of my other masters who wishes to remain nameless has stated all of his charters the contract comes at the last possible minute including while rolling down the track once.

I've already seen proof that Amtrak is trying to run off an established charter operator on the west coast by pricing them out of business. Either by charging an obscene amount for equipment, or prohibiting Sunday trains due to "lack of ability to turn the train." Henceforth Amtrak is successfully running off a very successful operator who has chartered a train every winter for the last two decades.

And the thing is charter operators don't have an effective regulatory body to hold Amtrak accountable to provisional agreements and to manage contracting.

In addition at the same time Amtrak announced cutbacks to food service which then took the advocacy community away from us charter people. Which is a fantastic way to get people off the issue so they don't see how they are running small businesses out of business.

The sad thing is everything I've said is true but no one believes it because it's not how normal businesses run. If I charter a bus I sign an agreement months before I need it, same with hotel rooms. Amtrak doesn't fall in this category. The truth is we need education from the main charter players to be sent out to the masses for the truth to spread.

Instead there is a massive amount of infighting I've seen happening between operators (standard everyday things) and not a lot of action.

The sad thing is if I were advising Amtrak how to minimize Public Relations fallout on charters I would coach them into doing what they've been doing because it's effective and puts the blame completely on the host railroad or the operator. Now potentially a freight railroad in dire need of good PR might pick up a long time operator as a token of good will. That wouldn't surprise me later this year.

Unfortunately amazing people like Bill Hatrick and a lot of my other friends are getting hurt by this.


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## Amtrak706 (Apr 26, 2018)

It never ceases to amaze me just how far Amtrak's mismanagement and general ineptness is able to devolve without hitting some kind of rock bottom. And I don't just mean the recent Anderson stuff.


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## railiner (Apr 26, 2018)

Is there some kind of insurance policy an operator can purchase to protect themselves from such cancellation's? I imagine if there were, it might be prohibitively expensive....


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## Palmetto (Apr 26, 2018)

Amtrak706 said:


> It never ceases to amaze me just how far Amtrak's mismanagement and general ineptness is able to devolve without hitting some kind of rock bottom. And I don't just mean the recent Anderson stuff.


It's what happens when business / transportation majors are running the show, and not career railroaders. It's happening at the freights, also.


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## CHvision (Apr 26, 2018)

Sadly, LA Rail stopped running single day trips. (If this was mentioned already, I apologize)


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 26, 2018)

railiner said:


> Is there some kind of insurance policy an operator can purchase to protect themselves from such cancellation's? I imagine if there were, it might be prohibitively expensive....


There is not. So on our trip we were running we weren't spending any money on car deposits till the last possible second so we could refund you. It's a messed up game the way Amtrak monkeys around with the contracts. I feel bad for the historical society because I know they've lost at least ten thousand from it because Ive worked with four of the car owners with cars on that train. And I know their cancellation policies.


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## railiner (Apr 26, 2018)

That really is a depressing situation. Let us hope that perhaps the freight railroads might see a way to save the day, and take over responsibility for running such excursion's in the future, as a way of good public relation's... I won't hold my breath waiting for that, but hey....never say never....


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## seat38a (Apr 26, 2018)

So how did the Circus Train get away with being pulled by the freight engines with people riding in them if insurance is an issue as others have pointed out earlier?


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 26, 2018)

The circus had the amount of insurance needed to operate a passenger train. Unlike excursion operators who operate maybe one or two trips a year. Or maybe in the case of 765 for three months in a row. The circus train ran 11 months of the year with two trains.

For them it was feasible to buy the insurance needed.

And who knows you might see one of the most unlikely freight railroads come and be a savior this year.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 26, 2018)

railiner said:


> That really is a depressing situation. Let us hope that perhaps the freight railroads might see a way to save the day, and take over responsibility for running such excursion's in the future, as a way of good public relation's... I won't hold my breath waiting for that, but hey....never say never....


It's a depressing business in ways. But when you have a trip and pull it off there is nothing like that feeling. Honestly there needs to be some major changes to how things work. We attempted to save the E Unit trip by running the PVs on the rear of 42/43 but the organization refused to do that.

Their reason was because they didn't want Amtrak to make a single cent from their PVs being moved. And I have heard that attendees have been asked not to buy newspapers in 30th street station because Amtrak gets a slight cut of the profits.


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## seat38a (Apr 27, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > That really is a depressing situation. Let us hope that perhaps the freight railroads might see a way to save the day, and take over responsibility for running such excursion's in the future, as a way of good public relation's... I won't hold my breath waiting for that, but hey....never say never....
> ...


Well considering Amtrak really does not wan't to deal with PV's anymore, hence why we have this thread going, looks like your organization is doing exactly what Amtrak wants.


----------



## seat38a (Apr 27, 2018)

Amtrak706 said:


> It never ceases to amaze me just how far Amtrak's mismanagement and general ineptness is able to devolve without hitting some kind of rock bottom. And I don't just mean the recent Anderson stuff.


Why would it ever hit rock bottom when money keeps being thrown at it no matter what.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 27, 2018)

seat38a said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > railiner said:
> ...


Not my organization. I work for one of the car owners. I actually understand their sentiment though. Both sides need to come together and compromise. But one side won't compromise. And the other side won't ever truly unify in times of trouble.


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## me_little_me (Apr 27, 2018)

Per the June 2018 Trains magazine, Amtrak's notice said '"We must narrow our focus to running a great core railroad: safe, on time, clean cars, friendly service, and great customer-facing technology," Amtrak's notice read, in part'.

What a dumb idea! Actually providing

safe service - only when they don't have accidents. Even airlines can blow up their engines in flight and have fewer deaths!

on time - On long distance? Hah! The only way they will make long distance on time is by eliminating the trains. Measuring end to end only when you have multiple stops on the trip really late but put in a big extra hour or two at the end doesn't qualify as on time but does qualify, IMHO as downright unethical.

clean cars - except for bathrooms once before the trip and washing windows no more than that.

friendly service - only if they fire about half the SCAs, CAs and dining staff. Then they'd have good customer service all around with the remaining good ones.

great customer-facing technology - they need to hire our friendly Amsnag guy to fix their app and web site so they work with a real back end.

To think they want to actually do things like the above? Why? They've been fine getting along without them for 50 years! Could the truth be that the Private Varnish on an Amtrak train embarrasses them because you get good service and clean cars and great customer-facing technology but not the other things that are Amtrak's problems?

I suggest we all write to our reps and ask them to push Amtrak to stop focusing on the things any idiot knows they should have been focusing on as there's not a chance in hell of those things happening unless the house is cleaned out starting from the top.


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## Ryan (Apr 27, 2018)

I’m not sure what the point of this rambling is. We’re discussing the PV issue in a number of other threads.

_Edit: And now we find ourselves in one of those threads!



_


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## keelhauled (Apr 27, 2018)

me_little_me said:


> I suggest we all write to our reps and ask them to push Amtrak to stop focusing on the things any idiot knows they should have been focusing on as there's not a chance in hell of those things happening unless the house is cleaned out starting from the top.


But...that is literally what they just did...


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## me_little_me (Apr 27, 2018)

Ryan said:


> I’m not sure what the point of this rambling is. We’re discussing the PV issue in a number of other threads.


It's a rant about stupid excuses. It could have been about any other change at Amtrak to "focus on their core".


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## Lonestar648 (Apr 27, 2018)

Hard to have friendly service from many in the company when jobs are gradually being eliminated. Management wants no outside distractions, but if all the current employees are doing their jobs, which includes customer satisfaction, and are not looking over their should for the ax, most of what they management wants is accomplished. Technology comes from the R&D group and outside vendors with lots of money.


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## jis (Apr 27, 2018)

I must say, to me this appears to be a really weird thread. But then again this is the age of weirdness I suppose.





MODERATOR NOTE: The thread to which jis was referring was merged into this thread. Consequently the post may no longer be relevant. Since it was "liked" several times, we decided to add this note rather than delete the comment.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 27, 2018)

I understood it. The basis of it is Anderson is targeting PVs because he wants a standardized experience for all rail passengers. And oftentimes our cars are in far better condition, with friendly service, and good food.


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## jis (Apr 28, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I understood it. The basis of it is Anderson is targeting PVs because he wants a standardized experience for all rail passengers. And oftentimes our cars are in far better condition, with friendly service, and good food.


But your cars are not a regular tariffed common carrier passenger service in the normal usage of the term. PVs as such have very little to do with every day regular transportation service. They just happen to require the existence of Amtrak and have Amtrak carry the cars because of some peculiarities of American laws. 
If Anderson is really serious about converting everything eventually to DEMUs as Thirdrail thinks may be the case, then I can see the logic of slowly weaning PV operations away from Amtrak. But there are many bridges to cross between here and there.


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## CHvision (Apr 29, 2018)

Booked a ride on the Salsiberry Beach next weekend

Message from Mr. Lowe: "PV's can and still do operate on most Amtrak trains nationwide! That has NOT changed! The set off / pick up locations have as well as the tariffs."


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## Seaboard92 (May 2, 2018)

And now the Milwaukee 261 Fundraiser for PTC has been cancelled thanks to Mr. Anderson. As a charter operator and contract worker for many operators I am downright scared that Mr. Anderson and his directive are going to force a lot of good people out of work.

While I am not friends with the 261 group nor was I contracted to work their trip I know they are a great organization and a great bunch of guys. And knowing what I know of the New River Train problems, and Leavenworth Snow Train's being priced out of existence by Amtrak I'm paranoid.

There are hundreds of thousands of volunteer hours going in to lovingly restore these relics of a simpler age for others to enjoy them. And now their work has been for nothing because they can not run. Groups like the 261 are especially adversely effected because they do not have a museum property.

There are countless young families who take their children on our trips as a way to teach them about the past, but also to show them how cool the train is. Who won't get that spark that will make a lifelong Amtrak rider because the trips didn't run.

There are thousands of adults who have never ridden a train before but ride a fall leaf excursion who learn just how comfortable and nice rail is as an option. That now won't be able to ride and learn and become Amtrak passengers.

There are thousands of small businesses like those of Hinton, WV that depend on the passengers coming to their town to support their business. And ultimately their family and community. That now will not have the business being dropped off at their doorstep.

There are hundreds of hotel rooms that will now be empty in cities across America as the charters do not run.

And that is why rail advocates should be fighting for charters as well; because just like the long distance trains charters are an American issue. And often times lead to new and lifelong Amtrak riders in locales that aren't just on state corridors. In the last five years charters have ran in 44 of 50 states at least once.

Charters aren't a small issue but rather one that has contributed $85 million dollars in economic activity to support them in the last five years.

And for people like me who make our livelihood working on these trains we have to keep trudging forward and wait for the axe to drop on us next. As if we don't keep trying we won't reach a success. As for what I'll do after the axe finally drops over my neck I'll probably teach high school. Where one of my lessons will be on how to research an issue fully. So that in the future there will be no Richard Anderson's making choices without having thoroughly researched the effects.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 2, 2018)

I heard about the #261 trip last night, very sad for all who had planned to be a part of it. I rode the last trip to Duluth 2 years ago and it was such a great experience, partly because Amtrak didn't have enough spare engines so they got to run unassisted. Amazing.

But look, the last thing we need is people yelling out the sky is falling when there is just a storm over head. #261 has only operated Amtrak trips like 1 time every other year lately. Most of what they have been doing is shortline stuff. #765 has run out of chicago without Amtrak. There are options for these engines. Not the same options, and some options might be more expensive and less appealing, but options exist.


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## jis (May 2, 2018)

And the Santa Barbara Wine Train bites the dust....

http://www.newspress.com/Top/Article/article.jsp?Section=LOCAL&ID=568103618629206037


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## Seaboard92 (May 2, 2018)

And the Bennet Levin Farewell to the E Units trip also bit the dust. No offense I'm pretty sure the sky could be falling.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 2, 2018)

Why?

Seems like a great opportunity for someone such as yourself to start a company whose sole mission is to make moves like this happen without Amtrak.


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## Seaboard92 (May 2, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why?
> 
> Seems like a great opportunity for someone such as yourself to start a company whose sole mission is to make moves like this happen without Amtrak.


The amount of insurance you need to run on freight railroads makes it cost prohibitive to do so. As much as I would love to do it and be the knight in shining armor riding in to save the day. That one is a bit over what I'm capable of.

Honestly if you ask me the economic impact of excursions is high enough that I think the federal government should underwrite the insurance cost. Which would lower the barriers in place that prevent excursions from occurring. Thus making it possible for brand new start ups to run a non Amtrak mainline excursion.

Thus giving us a complete free market in the excursion market by allowing for more competition. Amtrak's decision is actually hurting operators like the Virginia Museum of Transportation and the New Mexico Steam Locomotive Foundation (not sure in the official name) who have never ran a trip with Amtrak.

So under the new policy they are no unable to run a trip. And they've put millions into their engines, and marketing and now that's gone to waste. The government really needs to come in and help us.


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## jis (May 2, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why?
> 
> Seems like a great opportunity for someone such as yourself to start a company whose sole mission is to make moves like this happen without Amtrak.


I thought the issue was insurance. Small companies would find it quite impossible to get the necessary insurance. One of the primary functions of Amtrak has been to provide insurance cover.

For specific cases where a state institution is being harmed, shouldn't or coulrn't the state pick up the insurance, pending the various bodies involved in a federal cat being brought into alignment? Admittedly, it is hard for the feds or the states to do so suddenly in the middle of a fiscal year in which such has not been budgeted or appropriated.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 2, 2018)

They are both able to run trips... They are not able to run Amtrak trips.

Why do you feel it is beyond you? You're quite passionate about it, as are others. (And let's be clear, I've been on these trips. I get it. 261 to Duluth, 765 around horseshoe curve, 611 around the Asheville loops, 844 denver to Cheyenne... I've invested thousands just in tickets to these locomotives in recent years).

What would it take to start such a company? What companies provide the type of insurance that is required?

I've seen ️very little concrete information, and a whole lot of "it can't be done" and "it's too expensive." That's a lie. I was told I would never see #4501 run again on the mainline. I was told I would never see the #611 run again period. (Yes im aware NS, Wick Moorman, things chaged, doors closed again..)


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## crescent-zephyr (May 2, 2018)

And to be clear, im proposing a company that would be the middle man. #261 wants to run to Duluth? They contact "xyz rail logistics" and they provide the necessary insurance and coordination between BNSF and the 261.

The idea being... Such insurance is too expensive to purchase for 1 trip. Well if this xyz company is the middle man for 20 trips per year through various groups (new River, aaprco, etc.) that costs go down. Maybe it's more $$$ than what amtrak charged, but maybe it's still affordable?

I'm not sure what this company would need to provide... Amtrak inspected the equipment, provided inssurance, lovomotive, and operating crews. That's a big task.... but doesn't seem impossible.

Also... Seaboard I don't mean this as a challenge to you.. I hate the "well if you want to see that locomotive run why don't you volunteer and donate" crowd you see on train sites so much. I'm more asking a hypothetical question that maybe you have or others have the answers to.


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## jis (May 2, 2018)

I have a related question. The current accident damage limit is $295 million per occurrence. Does this mean that a charter train has to carry insurance for $295 million or some very significant proportion of it? What is the amount of insurance that they have to carry to satisfy the host railroad? Clearly they would want the operation to be adequately covered to meet the no fault nature of the operating contract should something untoward happen. Anyone know what that number typically is?


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## Seaboard92 (May 2, 2018)

I get what you are proposing and I think something like that is truly needed. But unfortunately the coverage Union Pacific, CSX, and the others are asking for is so high that even with twenty or so operators signing onto it. It would not be a profitable business as the middleman.

That's why I think it should honestly be coming from the government because with them it doesn't matter nearly as much if it loses money. And also because at the beginning I doubt one could get all of the operators needed to lower the cost enough. While the government could handle the loss more then I could.

I've seen a lot of things now that I've been told would never happen run however. I didn't believe a Big Boy would grace the rails in my lifetime. And UP has made that happen. But I honestly think it should be a government ran program.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 2, 2018)

Well this company could have funding provided by states that see the value... West Virginia being a good example.

Again... What kind of money are we talking about here? Do you know which companies even provide this type of insurance?

If it's 1 million a year... That's high but doable. If it's 100 million a year.... Now maybe that's indeed crazy high. Are there any public records to see what a group like Metra, Northstar Commuter, railrunner etc. Are paying for insurance each year?


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## jebr (May 2, 2018)

I have no idea what Northstar has for insurance, but since it's operated by BNSF it may be something that they cover as part of the contract.

I'm not sure how much of a boon it is to the local economies. There might be an argument that it helps to preserve or experience history, but my understanding is most of the direct positions for most of these (or at least 261) are volunteer, so no direct jobs are created, and if it's a non-profit there's no corporate income tax. Thinking specifically for Duluth, while a last-minute cancellation will certainly hurt occupancy at local hotels, June is prime tourist season and if there was no 261 train booking hotels they'd likely be filled by tourists to the North Shore instead, perhaps spending about the same amount of money in the local community (if not more, since they may drive to nearby destinations or spend a couple days in town instead of just an overnight.)

I'm not completely against subsidies for it, but it seems like the same argument that's made to justify a lot of corporate and sports subsidies that don't really deliver on the benefits claimed. I'd be more receptive to the "helps people to experience history" argument, but I'm not sure how much that is worth to allow trains to run on commercial tracks versus having it either sitting in a museum or having a separate stub tourist track for it to operate on. Just my personal opinion, though.


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## Seaboard92 (May 2, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well this company could have funding provided by states that see the value... West Virginia being a good example.
> 
> Again... What kind of money are we talking about here? Do you know which companies even provide this type of insurance?
> 
> If it's 1 million a year... That's high but doable. If it's 100 million a year.... Now maybe that's indeed crazy high. Are there any public records to see what a group like Metra, Northstar Commuter, railrunner etc. Are paying for insurance each year?


Now statewide funding would work till you have states like West Virginia. Wondering why they are helping 261 in Minnesota. But I see what you are going after.

I've never worked on the insurance side so I can't give you those numbers off hat but I do know the right person to ask. So when I see him I'll ask him about it. I'm mostly in operations and not the business side of charters.

So insurance is not exactly in my job class. I generally handle planning routes, cars, servicing, boarding, food, and stuff like that. My boss however would handle insurance.


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## seat38a (May 2, 2018)

I keep hearing insurance is prohibitively high but not ONCE have I seen numbers. So how do you know its too high???


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## Seaboard92 (May 3, 2018)

seat38a said:


> I keep hearing insurance is prohibitively high but not ONCE have I seen numbers. So how do you know its too high???


The reason I know not to sound sarcastic is because it's the one thing everybody agrees on. In this industry almost everyone disagrees on everything but insurance being too high is one thing we all agree on. I want to say the freight railroads require something close to what Amtrak carries for themselves


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## snvboy (May 3, 2018)

But what's the number? Too high for one can be entirely reasonable for another. So, does anybody know the actual insurance requirements? Maybe have an actual quote or COI to share?


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## cpotisch (May 3, 2018)

snvboy said:


> But what's the number? Too high for one can be entirely reasonable for another.


Charter groups tend to be pretty small. It's not difficult for premiums to be out of reach or close to it for the vast majority of charter them.


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## seat38a (May 3, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> snvboy said:
> 
> 
> > But what's the number? Too high for one can be entirely reasonable for another.
> ...


If you can't afford insurance for your car, then you should not be driving. If you can't afford insurance for ...... then you should not be ..... (Fill in the blank. Works for A LOT of situations.)


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## jis (May 3, 2018)

I believe Amtrak is mostly self-insured. They carry only an excess insurance policy (i.e. and extremely high deductible policy which tends to cost less) with some reinsurer, I forget which one off the top of my head. Of course things may have changed since I looked at it last.

Smaller outfits, even 20 charter trips pooling together, by themselves would be unable to take advantage of very high deductible policy, and costs go up dramatically as deducitbles go down. I think that may be the crux of the problem.


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## seat38a (May 3, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > I keep hearing insurance is prohibitively high but not ONCE have I seen numbers. So how do you know its too high???
> ...


"I want to say" is not factual info, just conjecture on your part. Again, lots of talk about its unaffordable but no actual numbers.


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## railiner (May 3, 2018)

Okay, I understand that the insurance costs are prohibitively high. But, I am asking why? Why can small "Ma&Pa" companies operate just a couple of buses for charter that carry upwards of 56 passenger's. What is their casualty record compared to charter train excursion's, on a per person basis? Or even private auto insurance? It mystifies me, unless it is just an easy means for freight railroads to deny their operation, as an annoyance....


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## cirdan (May 3, 2018)

jis said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Why?
> ...


What about people such as commuter rail agencies, who in some cases, not entiurely unlike Amtrak, don't actually own the tracks they run on.

Does their insurance cover operations outside of their regular routes.

Would there be an opportunity here for the more innovative among them to step up and venture into the PV market?


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## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2018)

The commuter lines can run private charters on their own lines. That's how the #765 trips ran last year and will run this year on the Metra line from Chicago to Joliet.

Outside of their own lines I'm not sure how that would work.

That's kind of what im saying... There is business opportunity there. You need the right people with industry knowledge and connections, but the need is there.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2018)

seat38a said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > snvboy said:
> ...


These groups have insurance. I can't imagine the "regular" insurance for firing up a steam locomotive and pulling a passenger train is cheap. These groups also spend around 1 million dollars just to restore the locomotives. These aren't small little private clubs playing train...

There are specific insurance requirements for operating on mainline railroads. It sounds like the mainline railroads want you to have insurance to cover all costs for anything that could possibly happen. (Entire train falls off bridge and contaminates water supply? Idk how they judge the worst case scenario). That's gonna be a high price tag no doubt. But again... No one seems to actually know what those requirements are or approximately what they cost.


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## jis (May 3, 2018)

I would not go so far as to say "no one knows". Surely the guys who actually write the check for such things know. The problem we are facing in this small discussion group here is that no one participating here is willing to share such information even if they know. They may have good reasons for such reluctance. i don't know what kind of non-disclosure agreement goes with specific contracts regarding pricing.

About steam excursion, I was sitting next to the Chairman of AAPRCO at the Gala Dinner at the Chicago Spring Meeting of RPA. He mentioned in passing that most if not all steam excursions operate under the umbrella of either host railroad provided insurance or Amtrak's Insurance. None of them according to him actually carry their own self-standing operating insurance that would independently satisfy the host railroad.

I have no idea how true or false that assertion is. Just mentioning what I heard.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 3, 2018)

I'm pretty certain his statement is correct.

Norfolk Southern provided insurance for its "21st century steam" partnership with 765, 4501, 611, etc. When I rode the last 611 trips out of Roanoke, I heard multiple car hosts say "NS isn't going to pay for the insurance anymore" - they were just car hosts but that's something.

But a place like Strasburg, TVRM, etc. Etc. Do carry their own insurance. It's just not enough to cover mainline requirements. Again... I can't imagine such an insurance is cheap to begin with.

I actually think nobody knows because it hasn't been done.


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## CHvision (May 3, 2018)

http://wvmetronews.com/2018/05/02/new-river-train-back-in-business/

New River train is back as the major event


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## Seaboard92 (May 3, 2018)

CHvision said:


> http://wvmetronews.com/2018/05/02/new-river-train-back-in-business/
> 
> New River train is back as the major event


Note Chris's phrasing "tentative agreement" which means anything can and will change. Either way I hope it runs because I'll be there if it does.


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## Seaboard92 (May 3, 2018)

And I do agree with the consensus no one truly knows because no one has tried it before. NS dropped their passenger policy last year after the season was done and sold off all except one of the 4x coaches. The one they kept had a HEP gen so that makes sense to keep.

Now what baffles me is how these class ones have enough coverage for themselves but never enough for passenger rail. It seems that carrying cargos that can explode and take out an entire town could have a higher premium than passengers. But I don't understand that part of the business.


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## jis (May 3, 2018)

All that they need to indemnify themselves is to have a very large line of credit to draw on. They don't necessarily have to go to an insurance company except to get catastrophic insurance coverage beyond that large line of credit to draw on. As for indemnifying a passenger operation, the potential damages from even a few hundred passengers mangled up can be at least as bad if not worse than a haz mat crash. Companies generally are reluctant to take on risks that are not essential to their business. I don't think any Class I really believes that Charter passenger trains are really essential to their business, hence their conscious choice not to insure them in most cases. At the end of the day it is all about risk and hassle management.


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## Seaboard92 (May 3, 2018)

Now that was a great explanation. M afraid a lot of these organizations will never be able to have a substantial line of credit. I know VMT is struggling right now financially. They need that engine to run to make money.

The other thing they need is a new manager at VMT over excursions but that's a completely different story. Last years season was a disaster for them.


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## neroden (May 4, 2018)

Regarding insurance, this just gets back to something I've been saying my whole life, which no less than John Maynard Keynes agreed with: the passenger operator, or a local government, needs to own the tracks.

The freight railroads are clearly just charging go-away prices because they can, not because they actually need to. A local government wouldn't do the same thing.


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## cpotisch (May 4, 2018)

neroden said:


> Regarding insurance, this just gets back to something I've been saying my whole life, which no less than John Maynard Keynes agreed with: the passenger operator, or a local government, needs to own the tracks.
> 
> The freight railroads are clearly just charging go-away prices because they can, not because they actually need to. A local government wouldn't do the same thing.


CSX and the other big guys know that Amtrak needs the track, so they can charge pretty much whatever they want. If Amtrak (or the government) buys trackage, the initial cost will be tremendous, but at a certain point the Class Is might realize that Amtrak can survive without them.


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## snvboy (May 4, 2018)

To clarify my earlier question, I'd like to know what exactly the insurance requirements from the railroad are.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 4, 2018)

It is debatable if anyone actually knows. It may vary from railroad to railroad.


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## MikefromCrete (May 4, 2018)

snvboy said:


> To clarify my earlier question, I'd like to know what exactly the insurance requirements from the railroad are.


Call them up and ask them.

Or get in touch with the Milw261 or NKP765 people, they actually run charter trains and would know. I doubt it anybody on this site would know the specifics. Even Seaboard, with all his private car experience, admits he doesn't know about the insurance aspects.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 4, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> snvboy said:
> 
> 
> > To clarify my earlier question, I'd like to know what exactly the insurance requirements from the railroad are.
> ...


Not sure who to call.... Someone at BNSF? Maybe they can tell you the actual requirements.

Or do you call an insurance company and get an idea of cost for such a policy. What insurance companies provide this?


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## crescent-zephyr (May 4, 2018)

I see the edit now....

Yeah I'm sure #261 has looked into it. They are true miracle workers up there. If anyone can figure it out, if will be them!

Anybody know how UP handles the Frontier Days and Museum trips each year? Maybe the passenger coverage is lumped into the steam coverage they carry for #844


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## Seaboard92 (May 4, 2018)

The people you would call would be the railroads to get the number they want for insurance. But the issue you would have is actually reaching the person over passenger trains. For instance I do not know the person at BNSF. However I am a known Person at CSX and NS so I have a higher likelihood of getting my phone call answered.

Then once you find out what the railroads want I would reach out to an insurance company.


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## looshi (May 4, 2018)

There's been a couple of comments in this thread for "real numbers". I don't think people have an understanding of the magnitude of the cost for insurance like this so I went and asked around.

I have worked with a group that is required to have $10M of insurance to run their excursions on a Class 2. This is considered a low amount in today's day and age but they are grandfathered in through some old agreements. It costs them $100K per year in premiums. Assuming a linear scale taking that up to $250M would require $2.5M a year minimum. This assumes a Class 1 would accept $250M in liability without Amtrak's statutory cap. There is no reason to believe they would not ask for more. Iowa Pacific needed $300M in liability to operate the Hoosier State and it pretty much bankrupted them.

Also, there are only 2 main companies that do insurance for the tourist railroad industry and they both use the same underwriter. The $500M policy that someone like a CSX might require doesn't currently exist. Even if it did it would only take 1 or 2 organizations not being able to make the payment to the pool and then it would all fall apart.

And a good portion of the industry hates one another. But that's another subject entirely.


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## Seaboard92 (May 4, 2018)

If that isn't the truth I would have thought something like these charter restrictions would bring everyone together. But from what I've noticed is the further fracturing of an already fractured industry. I could think of a few places that don't like each other right off.

I can also think however of a certain excursion manager who is almost universally disliked across the entire industry. It's amazing how catty the industry is in times like these. Then there are people like me who are fighting for everyone's charters despite having no connections to them. But I see an attack against another group as an attack against mine as well.


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## MikefromCrete (May 4, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I see the edit now....
> 
> Yeah I'm sure #261 has looked into it. They are true miracle workers up there. If anyone can figure it out, if will be them!
> 
> Anybody know how UP handles the Frontier Days and Museum trips each year? Maybe the passenger coverage is lumped into the steam coverage they carry for #844


UP is a multi-million dollar corporation, it's not a bunch of railfans with a steam locomotive and private cars. I'm sure UP can easily absorb any financial impact. UP also operates very few excursions anymore that are open to the public. In recent years, the UP has mainly moved its steam locomotives from place to place on trains open only to railroad employees. The locomotives are displayed at various locations for public relations purposes, but there are not a lot of chances to actually ride behind them.


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## seat38a (May 4, 2018)

looshi said:


> And a good portion of the industry hates one another. But that's another subject entirely.


Well there you have it. There is your number 1 reason why PV's will not be making a return like they used to.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 5, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > I see the edit now....
> ...


Well... NS is also a multi million dollar corporatioj and they chose not to Continue their passenger insirance (according to Seaboard in this thread and also what members of the 611 grouo were saying when I rode last year).

The amount of public trips UP runs is irrelevant. A public trip is a public trip.

"Some railfans with a steam locomotive" is hardly a good description of any of the mainline operations. Just restoring a locomotive is around a million dollars....


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## Seaboard92 (May 5, 2018)

I'm actually not just a PV guy. I'm a former employee of the Virginia Museum of Transportation who was forced out after they changed excursion managers. So I can speak directly about anything going on with the NS program, and the 611. Even though I don't work there anymore I'm still connected enough to know the goings.

NS cancelled their passenger insurance last year at the end of the 611 excursion season because the 21st Century Steam program was designed as a temporary program for starters. Part of the reason TVRM (4501, 630), Fort Wayne (765) feel animosity towards VMT is because of the program.

After 611 started running again in 2015 you can note that the other engines stopped running on the mainline. Of which the other operators blame on 611 and VMT which keeps the cycle of bitterness running.

UP still does passenger excursions in fact ones ticket sales open tomorrow. And I hope to be lucky enough to get selected to buy a ticket. UP generally hasn't been running as many trips but I believe they retain the ability to run more often.

This year UP is only running the Denver Post Special because they are trying to get 4014 finished for 5/10/2019. Of which if I were you I would reserve your hotel for that as soon as the dates come open for booking. It's bound to be a great treat with the 4014 and the guest engine.

I can speak for hours about why groups don't like each other and generally for the reason.

Disclosure: I hold no hard feelings against the Virginia Museum of Transportation and 611. I do disagree with the way they've been led over the last few years. But I do wish them success.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 5, 2018)

Looshi's post above gives a lot of info! If Iowa Pacific needed 300 million.... And with his class II example we are looking at 2-3 million a year. That's just a guess still... But a somewhat informed guess. Ha


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## railiner (May 5, 2018)

I don't 'get' why railfan groups would have animosity for each other....when I lived in the Denver area, during the '70's and '80's, the Rocky Mountain RR Club, and the Intermountain Chapter of the NRHS, were 'friendly rival's' that each ran sellout UP steam excursions annually during that period....


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## Seaboard92 (May 5, 2018)

railiner said:


> I don't 'get' why railfan groups would have animosity for each other....when I lived in the Denver area, during the '70's and '80's, the Rocky Mountain RR Club, and the Intermountain Chapter of the NRHS, were 'friendly rival's' that each ran sellout UP steam excursions annually during that period....


It's not so friendly anymore. I mean on paper we all help each other out. But there is a lot of undercutting everyone else in the industry. For instance my former boss at VMT who let me go goes around trash talking my trips that I try and operate.

In the worst case I was running a dinner train in the chicago market because I was stuck with a train after the group pulled the rug out from under me. And he went to work for a PV trip for the same group. He went around train orders, Facebook, and to anyone he could run his mouth to telling them my trip was a sham. And not official. Even though it was official I couldn't share the contracts. And it ran me out of business.

Again this year with the Susquehanna River Trip he was doing the same thing. Which then gave us a lot of trouble selling till Amtrak pulled the rug from under us. I was able to stop him this time by having a mutual friend step in and tell him to quit. The next step would have been legal action.

Another good example of groups that can't work together is to look at Portland, OR the three groups that make up ORHF do not get along well. Followed by the animosity that VMT has built up with TVRM, and Fort Wayne. The industry now that the younger heads are taking over is becoming very polarized and I for one do not like it.


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## railiner (May 5, 2018)

Sorry to hear about that...when we ran those excursion's, we were strictly non-profit organization's, with all-volunteer help, and the small 'profit' we made as a result of ticket sales exceeding costs just went back into our organization's general fund. No one stood to make financial gains, individually. For all the hours of work I put in, mainly in handling ticket sales, (the old-fashioned way), my greatest reward were cab rides in the 844 and the 3985 between photo run-bys....


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## MikefromCrete (May 5, 2018)

If there is all this grade school animosity between railfan groups, then it looks like excursion trains are on their way out. A unified front with Amtrak might bring results, but a bunch of crybaby isolated groups won't go anywhere.


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## seat38a (May 5, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > I don't 'get' why railfan groups would have animosity for each other....when I lived in the Denver area, during the '70's and '80's, the Rocky Mountain RR Club, and the Intermountain Chapter of the NRHS, were 'friendly rival's' that each ran sellout UP steam excursions annually during that period....
> ...


Seems to be the case with anything the millennials and the snowflakes get their hands on.


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## Seaboard92 (May 6, 2018)

MikefromCrete said:


> If there is all this grade school animosity between railfan groups, then it looks like excursion trains are on their way out. A unified front with Amtrak might bring results, but a bunch of crybaby isolated groups won't go anywhere.


That's what I've been trying to convince the agency to do. There are some good groups CP Huntington is actively trying to help others especially the Leavenworth Snow Train which is over 2,000 miles away from them. Then there are other groups that are either doing nothing, or refuse to work with another group to salvage anything. I wish we could salvage something but it's next to impossible if the group's won't come out and unify.

It's one things to be competitors the rest of the year but what Amtrak does to one operator. Could very well happen to you as well. But most don't see it that way. Honestly I don't really like the new young guns in these groups because they think they know everything and their egos are gigantic. Which is why I prefer groups like CP Huntington because they have young people in charge. But neither one has a huge ego. And they are willing to take time and teach.


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## railiner (May 6, 2018)

It's good to hear that some of the younger generation are into railfanning activities. Most of the transportation related fan groups I have been a member of, whether it be land, sea, or air...

in the last few years seemed to have an older and older demographic, and losing members thru natural 'attrition'. It seems that the younger generation's are more into their electronic devices, than in preserving transportation history, with a few exception's, of course...


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## bretton88 (May 7, 2018)

You can look to the ski industry to see what b is happening. As the liability insurance required has become greater, the cost of the insurance has gone through the roof, putting a lot of small areas out of business. Because of this, the number of underwriters selling policies big enough has shrunk, so less competition to sell those policies. Amtrak basically looked at the rising liability potential and said "we don't want to be your liability insurance anymore, without a hefty compensation." Just like the with the ski areas, the suddenly increased insurance costs are going to put a lot of smaller players out of business or driven to consolidation.


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## RichardWSnow (May 7, 2018)

One aspect of private cars that has not been mentioned in this thread is that they can cause delays at stops other than those at which they are added or removed. Specifically, I'm referring to Denver. A few years back I was on the CZ, and we were pulling 3 private cars. At Denver the platform is not long enough to accommodate the CZ with 3 private cars. We had to back onto a track and drop off the private cars, then continue with the normal backing operation onto the platform track to load/unload passengers. After leaving the platform, we had to again back onto the track containing the private cars to pick them up. Each operation with the private cars took about 45 minutes, so we lost about an hour and a half total. I realize this may be uniquely due to the number of private cars, and perhaps the extra backing operations are not required for one or two private cars. Also, other stub-end terminals may have long enough platform tracks that three (or more) private cars can be accommodated.


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## Seaboard92 (May 7, 2018)

Part of the problem with the private cars and delays comes down to Amtrak. A lot of crews never have to switch so they aren't doing used to doing it and can't do it rapidly. And with some small changes in policies you could speed this up. The crews in HUN are so used to PVs that they can be into the next stop on time or within five minutes. But it was a PV base till Anderson.

Denver actually has a platform restriction now on how many cars you can have on one train. I forget what the number is.


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## cpotisch (May 7, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Part of the problem with the private cars and delays comes down to Amtrak. A lot of crews never have to switch so they aren't doing used to doing it and can't do it rapidly. And with some small changes in policies you could speed this up. The crews in HUN are so used to PVs that they can be into the next stop on time or within five minutes. But it was a PV base till Anderson.
> 
> Denver actually has a platform restriction now on how many cars you can have on one train. I forget what the number is.


I'm in favor of PVs, but I can't really say that ALL the blame is on Amtrak. If there are several cars hooked onto the back of a CZ, it can definitely be the case that no matter what Amtrak does, they need to do a bunch of stoppin' and shuntin'. And that definitely can hold up the train and its passengers, no matter what Amtrak does.


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## neroden (May 9, 2018)

RichardWSnow said:


> One aspect of private cars that has not been mentioned in this thread is that they can cause delays at stops other than those at which they are added or removed. Specifically, I'm referring to Denver. A few years back I was on the CZ, and we were pulling 3 private cars. At Denver the platform is not long enough to accommodate the CZ with 3 private cars.


Assuming the private cars aren't actually going to Denver, put the private cars on the head end. Problem solved.


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## Seaboard92 (May 9, 2018)

neroden said:


> RichardWSnow said:
> 
> 
> > One aspect of private cars that has not been mentioned in this thread is that they can cause delays at stops other than those at which they are added or removed. Specifically, I'm referring to Denver. A few years back I was on the CZ, and we were pulling 3 private cars. At Denver the platform is not long enough to accommodate the CZ with 3 private cars.
> ...


One of the weirdest moves I've worked on. We had one PV on the front of the train, the Amtrak consist, then two on the rear. Of course it made it easier for switching.


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## CHvision (May 9, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I see the edit now....
> 
> Yeah I'm sure #261 has looked into it. They are true miracle workers up there. If anyone can figure it out, if will be them!
> 
> Anybody know how UP handles the Frontier Days and Museum trips each year? Maybe the passenger coverage is lumped into the steam coverage they carry for #844


#261 made an edit from their excursion as "Windy City". 3 of their cars hooked on the Empire Builder. The arrival is not a full guarantee though.


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## Seaboard92 (May 11, 2018)

It now looks like former Amtrak CEO and Norfolk Southern Chairman Wick Moorman and owner of the Pennsylvania E Units Bennet Levin are working on a legislative solution.

From what I can infer from the bottom of the article announcing their new partnership they are working on a solution to cease the need of using Amtrak for Insurance. Now what this means I do not know. But it looks like it might be the plan I proposed of having the government provide affordable excursion insurance to all operators nationwide. Thus removing the barriers to enter the market. And giving us a freer market to operate in.

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/05/10-new-effort-will-focus-on-restoration-of-famed-pennsylvania-railroad-k4s-no-1361


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## jis (May 11, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> It now looks like former Amtrak CEO and Norfolk Southern Chairman Wick Moorman and owner of the Pennsylvania E Units Bennet Levin are working on a legislative solution.
> 
> From what I can infer from the bottom of the article announcing their new partnership they are working on a solution to cease the need of using Amtrak for Insurance. Now what this means I do not know. But it looks like it might be the plan I proposed of having the government provide affordable excursion insurance to all operators nationwide. Thus removing the barriers to enter the market. And giving us a freer market to operate in.
> 
> http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/05/10-new-effort-will-focus-on-restoration-of-famed-pennsylvania-railroad-k4s-no-1361


That is very good news indeed! Hope the legislative change goes through successfully. Unburdening Amtrak of all these extraneous obligations will be good for all concerned. I suspect even the likes of Anderson would be delighted.


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## Seaboard92 (May 11, 2018)

I think all of us could be happy with this as a solution. I mean we still have the need to fix the private car set offs and pick ups. As that will still make a lot of charters non viable. But it's a major start in the right direction.

I find it funny however when I proposed that to my people I work with in the industry the people were still laughing when I left the room. But now everyone is on board with it.

If anyone can be successful it's Bennet he has managed to save the industry more times than most people know. While he is a polarizing figure he could do some good. And when he finally retires it'll be a sad day.


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## Trogdor (May 11, 2018)

Serious question: our government cant even provide adequate health insurance for the citizens of this country. Why should it be providing insurance for steam locomotives and private railcar operators?


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## Ryan (May 11, 2018)

While I agree in principle, we should do the good things that we are capable of, and not let our shortcomings in other areas penalize us.

I agree that we should prioritize health care over fun train rides, but it isn’t like not doing this is going to enlighten 51% of our policy makers.


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## Seaboard92 (May 11, 2018)

I think we should do healthcare as well. But there is the fact that in five years time charters have contributed 85 million to the economy in an indirect method. Basically by passengers, crews, and fans making lodging, food, gas, and gift purchases in generally economically depressed towns.

So actually it does a lot for small town America thus making it worthy. The economic impact of health care however I would say indirectly be in the trillions of dollar range but it is too much a political powder keg to actually get accomplished.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 11, 2018)

There should be an affordable way to move private passenger cars over America's railroad infrustructure. If Amtrak was providing that, fine. But if Amtrak doesn't provide it I think someone should.

Glad to hear there are good people looking in to this! Maybe we will end up with something better. Heck, even if steam excursions end up with an e-8 behind them vs. an Amtrak Englne that's a win!  (that's a joke... Partially)


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## cpotisch (May 11, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> One of the weirdest moves I've worked on. We had one PV on the front of the train, the Amtrak consist, then two on the rear. Of course it made it easier for switching.


Don't PV owners usually try put their cars on the rear, to reduce wear and tear?


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## neroden (May 11, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> It now looks like former Amtrak CEO and Norfolk Southern Chairman Wick Moorman and owner of the Pennsylvania E Units Bennet Levin are working on a legislative solution.
> 
> From what I can infer from the bottom of the article announcing their new partnership they are working on a solution to cease the need of using Amtrak for Insurance. Now what this means I do not know. But it looks like it might be the plan I proposed of having the government provide affordable excursion insurance to all operators nationwide. Thus removing the barriers to enter the market. And giving us a freer market to operate in.
> 
> http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/05/10-new-effort-will-focus-on-restoration-of-famed-pennsylvania-railroad-k4s-no-1361


Good for Wick. He's a good guy.


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## cpotisch (May 11, 2018)

neroden said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > It now looks like former Amtrak CEO and Norfolk Southern Chairman Wick Moorman and owner of the Pennsylvania E Units Bennet Levin are working on a legislative solution.
> ...


It's funny that Wick, who has a relatively insignificant role at Amtrak now, has been doing so much work for PVs and charters lately. Anderson must hate him.


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## jis (May 11, 2018)

Wick owns a PV. What do you expect? Why would Anderson care as long as he either does not have to deal with PVs or is adequately compensated to his satisfaction? I doubt these things are personal at all.


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## Seaboard92 (May 11, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > One of the weirdest moves I've worked on. We had one PV on the front of the train, the Amtrak consist, then two on the rear. Of course it made it easier for switching.
> ...


I think it's more because it's easier for switching then anything else. That and a lot of PV owners own tail cars such as observations, of office cars with an open vestibule.


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## Ryan (May 11, 2018)

When I get rich and have a PV with an open porch, I'm putting it on the front of the train open porch first.

I'll get a toy control stand and pretend I'm the engineer.










Just have to watch out for those grade crossings.


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## cpotisch (May 11, 2018)

Ryan said:


> When I get rich and have a PV with an open porch, I'm putting it on the front of the train open porch first.
> 
> I'll get a toy control stand and pretend I'm the engineer.
> 
> ...


I decided a couple years ago that when I grow up, instead of buying a house, I'll just buy an old dining car and sleeper instead.


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## Seaboard92 (May 11, 2018)

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> > When I get rich and have a PV with an open porch, I'm putting it on the front of the train open porch first.
> ...


You really just need one car to make a decent little house. Three bedrooms the size of a VIA prestige room and then a open plan lounge.


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## jis (May 11, 2018)

Go for broke. Get one of the HiLiners (ex-Santa Fe El Cap) cars, and rearrange the furnishing in it - Kitchen, laundry etc, downstairs, and Bedroom, Drawing Room, Dining Room upstairs


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## cpotisch (May 12, 2018)

jis said:


> Go for broke. Get one of the HiLiners (ex-Santa Fe El Cap) cars, and rearrange the furnishing in it - Kitchen, laundry etc, downstairs, and Bedroom, Drawing Room, Dining Room upstairs


The thing is, I would want the layout to be more-or-less original, so if I have a diner (could be a Hi-Level) and a Sleeper, I have all the facilities of a house, without changing much! To be clear, I'm probably not going to actually buy one or two vintage train cars instead of a house, but it's nice to dream. But in my old age, who knows...


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## Thirdrail7 (May 12, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> There should be an affordable way to move private passenger cars over America's railroad infrustructure. If Amtrak was providing that, fine. But if Amtrak doesn't provide it I think someone should.



I've always believe Amtrak continues to exist to shield operators from liability that others can't afford. No other private railroad REALLY wants to deal with the liability issues that arise from accidents and incidents. If you notice, the companies that typically take on passenger operations are a multi-layered consortium of companies that have deep financial reserves. These reserves are typically shielded but they exist.

it is no wonder that private car operators would like to latch on to Amtrak. Do you think CSX will give them the same deal? I remember NJT wanted to explore operations to Allentown or somewhere deep into NS. I'm paraphrasing the story, but NS basically told them "We welcome the thought, however don't count on the Amtrak formula. You will pay and you will be responsible for everything and anything that happens to your train and our property." The one quote I remember is "Don't assume our assets are readily available or come for free."

After that, NJT didn't even operate the inspection train!


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## cpotisch (May 12, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> The one quote I remember is "Don't assume our assets are readily available or come for free."


That's borderline ominous! The Class Is never fail to surprise me at how hard they work to be for all the passenger operators.


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## Seaboard92 (May 14, 2018)

Now here's the difference between Germany and the United States for charters. And I bring this up because I'm putting together a charter in Germany this December and now have first hand knowledge of both countries.

Germany

Step 1: send the railroad the time, date, desired route, amount of passengers, and type of locomotive.

Step 2: if they can make it happen Deutsche Bahn sends out a binding contract. With penalties both for the operator and Deutsche Bahn if the train doesn't run.

Step 3: Market the trip.

Step 4: operate the trip.

United States

Step 1: send your proposal of a trip in. Include the same basic information to Amtrak. You may or may not get a response on it.

Step 2: if it's doable you receive preliminary approval. Meaning you can market it but Amtrak hasn't set up the contract yet. With a preliminary price.

Step 3:market the trip

Step 4: usually a week out sometimes even on the day of. A final quote (usually higher) and the actual contract.

Step 5: operate the train.

As you can see the German Deutsche Bahn is far better to operate a charter on because they stick to the initial price, and contract to run before a week out. It's a much less stressful situation for operators.

Also of note is the fact Deutsche Bahn operates over 24,000 passenger trains a day with over 80 percent of them being on time within five minutes. And on some days they will have up to twenty plus charter steam trains, and other trains plying their 20,000 ish miles of track.


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## jis (May 14, 2018)

What is the amount of German Federal and State financial support that DB gets? AFAIK the LD network has to pretty much cover its costs, but for short/medium distance the subsidy leve is something like 23% to 24%

What is their staffing level? How easy or difficult is it for them to find spare staff? How much equipment do they have? How much from that pool are they easily able to spare?

It really is an Apples to Hippopotamus comparison.


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## seat38a (May 14, 2018)

Oh Seaboard92, I really hope Amtrak changes their mind on PV's. The thought of you going into teaching high school as you stated previously you would do if your employment in the PV market ends, scares the kaka out of me.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (May 14, 2018)

In Europe you can just hire yourself a fleet of railcars.

https://www.euro-express.eu/

No apples here. Just free market at work.


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## Seaboard92 (May 14, 2018)

I think you each missed the point I was after. The point I was getting at was Amtrak sometimes won't issue a contract till the week prior, or even day of. While Deutsche Bahn issues one immediately upon the first approval.

And mostly the charters have to price a lot higher due to an unknown raise we might get on the final contract.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 14, 2018)

Amtrak doesn't have enough money to commit to a contract more than a week out. - AU


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## jis (May 14, 2018)

No. Amtrak is unpredictable incompetent in many things it does. One can guess that since it does not view Charter Trains as one of its core functions it is particularly more incompetent. I suspect (and I could be wrong) that it has little to do with money overall, but a lot to do with choices made in using the money that they have, for various purposes. It still has very little to do with what DB, which operates in a completely different legal, social and financial environment, is able to do or not. Amtrak, America and its political, social and legal environment stands all by itself in its own glory.


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## NorthShore (May 14, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan said:
> ...


That and land....or a track to keep it on.


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## NorthShore (May 14, 2018)

jis said:


> Go for broke. Get one of the HiLiners (ex-Santa Fe El Cap) cars, and rearrange the furnishing in it - Kitchen, laundry etc, downstairs, and Bedroom, Drawing Room, Dining Room upstairs


I once considered buying a Metra Bi-Level and retrofitting it as a home, complete with look over balcony into the living room.


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## NorthShore (May 14, 2018)

jis said:


> No. Amtrak is unpredictable incompetent in many things it does. One can guess that since it does not view Charter Trains as one of its core functions it is particularly more incompetent. I suspect (and I could be wrong) that it has little to do with money overall, but a lot to do with choices made in using the money that they have, for various purposes. It still has very little to do with what DB, which operates in a completely different legal, social and financial environment, is able to do or not. Amtrak, America and its political, social and legal environment stands all by itself in its own glory.


I nominate Seaboard to hold a position at Amtrak overseeing charter trips.


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## CHvision (May 14, 2018)

If this is suitable for this thread: Cedar Rapids and the Super Dome will be on the Empire Builder on the 20th.


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## cirdan (May 15, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Now here's the difference between Germany and the United States for charters. And I bring this up because I'm putting together a charter in Germany this December and now have first hand knowledge of both countries.
> 
> Germany
> 
> ...


I think it also helps that in Germany there is a legal distinction between DB as operator of trains and DB Netz as owner and operator of the infrastructure. DB Netz is by its own charter required to deal with all operators equally. So even if they may actually think a charter is a bunch of foamers playing trains, they cannot discriminate against them on those grounds, provided the charter operator acts professionally and files all the paperwork correctly.

In the USA on the other hand, there is nothing to stop freight railroads from discriminating, and even on its own tracks Amtrak discriminates against third parties..


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## cirdan (May 15, 2018)

jis said:


> What is the amount of German Federal and State financial support that DB gets? AFAIK the LD network has to pretty much cover its costs, but for short/medium distance the subsidy leve is something like 23% to 24%
> 
> What is their staffing level? How easy or difficult is it for them to find spare staff? How much equipment do they have? How much from that pool are they easily able to spare?
> 
> It really is an Apples to Hippopotamus comparison.


No.

DB is split into different entities.

DB Netz owns and maintains the land, tracks and buildings, and dispatches the operations. DB netz does not receive a direct subsidy for normal operations (but things such as high speed lines or major upgrades may be supported by government loans at favotable rates, or even nominal loans that don't actually need to be repaid).

DB (Bahn) operates the inter city services. These pay their own way. I guess there is some cross subsidy with the stronger lines transferring money to the weaker ones. However, some under-performing lines have been eliminated.

DB Cargo / DB Schencker operates freight trains. These are not subsidized. They are in direct competition to a plethora of foreign and independent operators also operating freight trains. On the other hand, DB Scencker also operates in other countries, in some cases competing with local railroads, in some cases having taken them over.

DB Regio operates all local and regional passenger services. Schedules, fares and levels of service are defined by local and regional authorities, who pay (subsidize) DB Regio to operate the service. This is the only direcvtly subsidized part of DB.. DB Regio needs to compete with a plethora of foreign and local operators every time the contracts come up for renewal. On the other hand, through its internationl arm, Arriva, DB Regio also competes for contracts in other countries.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (May 15, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> I think you each missed the point I was after. The point I was getting at was Amtrak sometimes won't issue a contract till the week prior, or even day of. While Deutsche Bahn issues one immediately upon the first approval.
> 
> And mostly the charters have to price a lot higher due to an unknown raise we might get on the final contract.


Oh I got your point of view. Thank you for sharing insider information on the PV scene. My point was free market where you can run a train with out the need to buy the railroad tracks. In your case DB Rail is getting agreement out several months in advance, where Amtrak signs the contract as your leaving the station. No other reason than a monopoly. Customer vs Inconvenience. Sorry but Amtrak is just been short sighted with the charters and PV moves, and the money to be made. You have to know your cost of doing business in order to make money at your business. Just dont think Amtrak has internal accounting reports. So many decisions made with out good accounting to back them up.


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## railiner (May 15, 2018)

cirdan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > What is the amount of German Federal and State financial support that DB gets? AFAIK the LD network has to pretty much cover its costs, but for short/medium distance the subsidy leve is something like 23% to 24%
> ...


That is very interesting...after reading your comments, I couldn't help thinking of 'what if' in the future, the US rail system evolved into that sort of scenario?

Just imagine what passenger service would exist (or not).......


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## bretton88 (May 19, 2018)

railiner said:


> cirdan said:
> 
> 
> > jis said:
> ...


Under such a scenario, this would probably eliminate or significantly alter the LD network (just like DB got rid of it's sleeper trains). You'd have the NEC/other Amtrak holdings being run by Amtrak, but owned by a subsidiary (Amtrak holdings?). Then you'd have whatever corridors the states want to run up for bid, so some might be run by Amtrak, some might be run by private entities.


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## CHvision (May 19, 2018)

Previously, on the 17th, the Empire Builder to Chicago was over an 1 hr. However, reaching to St. Paul, the cars took less than 15 minutes to couple to the Builder. Later, the lateness dropped to to 20 mins to Chicago.


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## seat38a (May 20, 2018)

CHvision said:


> Previously, on the 17th, the Empire Builder to Chicago was over an 1 hr. However, reaching to St. Paul, the cars took less than 15 minutes to couple to the Builder. Later, the lateness dropped to to 20 mins to Chicago.


Just imagine if they didn't spend the 15 minutes coupling. That could have been only 5 minutes late into Chicago.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 20, 2018)

I can't speak for the German operation but let's expand and help you out with the United States operation:



Seaboard92 said:


> United States
> Step 1: send your proposal of a trip in. Include the same basic information to Amtrak. You may or may not get a response on it.
> 
> *STEP 1(A): Wait as Amtrak contacts EVERY HOST railroad and EVERY DIVISION and facility your special little train will touch and wait to see if they will support the move*
> ...




You're welcome, Seaboard. You're welcome!


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## jis (May 20, 2018)

As I said, Apples to Hippopotamus comparison


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## Just-Thinking-51 (May 20, 2018)

I agree with Charters part, but why screw the PV bit?

How hard is it to tack a extra car on?

If Amtrak is getting rid of outside charters are they getting rid of there inside charters? What about the school special from Florida. What about a Congress special? A football special?


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## Thirdrail7 (May 20, 2018)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> I agree with Charters part, but why screw the PV bit?
> 
> How hard is it to tack a extra car on?
> 
> If Amtrak is getting rid of outside charters are they getting rid of there inside charters? What about the school special from Florida. What about a Congress special? A football special?


Who said they were getting rid of outside charters? Who said they are getting rid of inside charters? Only buffs on boards and the initial "sound the alarms without information" even suggested that,

As previously stated, exceptions to the general private car and charter/special guidelines will be decided on a case by case basis.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (May 20, 2018)

So add the [Case by Case review] part to the above expanded [How it gets done]. The question become when does Amtrak determines the [Case by Case Review] part. The day before or within 7 days of the initial application. Makes a small difference....

Side note DB Rail has a service that will get you paths for your train both inside of and outside of Germany. A one stop shopping service for a fee of course.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 20, 2018)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> So add the [Case by Case review] part to the above expanded [How it gets done]. The question become when does Amtrak determines the [Case by Case Review] part. The day before or within 7 days of the initial application. Makes a small difference....


That, as always will vary on a case by case basis. It is easier to determine if you're dealing with your own territory (such as sports team specials on the NEC.) However, what if multiple hosts are involved? Even if Amtrak is inclined to operate the extra, you still have to wait for every facility and host involved to say "yea" or "nay". Unless something has changed, CSX will contact EVERY Superintendent of EVERY subdivision the train will traverse and get approval. All it takes is for one of them to say " I can't handle it" for the request to be turned down.

However, it takes time which is why it can literally take weeks (and in some cases months) to work out this process, particularly since the railroads change every day. Does anyone think that CSX or NS for that matter wants an extra floating around ALX right now?

That's why your trip can be cancelled at a moments notice and that is why sometimes approval can come at the last minute.


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## CHvision (Jun 19, 2018)

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/06/15-amtrak-rule-would-end-use-of-private-car-observation-platforms

More to what's going on


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 19, 2018)

That's our punishment for the NYC 3 having the VP of Metro North, General manager of the providence and Worcester, a young kid who just bought an SPV, and I forget the last person riding the platform on a regional between New Haven and New York.

This is just another standard over reaction by Gardner and Anderson. This rule is only proposed right now so hopefully RPCA and AAPRCO can get it struck down. I honestly don't see that happening because neither man is known to back down.

For years there has been an unwritten rule that states you can not ride on an open platform, or open vestibule on the platform on the NEC. The problem though with unwritten rules is not everyone knows about them, and they really aren't the most effective.

The solution I think we should do is codify the rule on the NEC and leave the national network stuff alone. But that's common sense so that will not happen.

It should be noted that the owner of the Portland should know the unwritten rule and this was his last trip before retirement (as many owners are giving up their small businesses thanks to Gardner and his misinformation to Anderson) so he might have just said. "Well if I retire they can't really punish me and just did it anyway." But I don't see that happening.

I can't wait for the punishment from the billboards at the puppet masters Building in Philly. That should be most interesting.

Some of us have found an interesting way to retaliate against this rule to prove Anderson and Gardner are a bunch of hypocrites on a bunch of their new rules. And I can't wait to see this project come to fruition. But that's all I can say as one of the advisors on the project. But at least it used my degree.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 19, 2018)

It's 2018. Im surprissd open air platforms have been allowed to be occupied on the mainline at all in recent years.

And not just amtrak and the mainline rules. Im surprised any private car insurrance covers it.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's 2018. Im surprissd open air platforms have been allowed to be occupied on the mainline at all in recent years.
> 
> And not just amtrak and the mainline rules. Im surprised any private car insurrance covers it.


In the last fifty years I can only think of two incidents involving an open platform. 
The first one being on the PRR 120 back in the late 70s early 80s where a drunk passenger climbed up from the platform onto the roof of the car and contacted the catenary. The second being someone who was riding an open platform when T was running open end first on an AAPRCO special. And that person was hit in the head by a rock in an area known for trains getting rocked.

Other then that open vestibules and platform riding are fairly safe. And there haven't been any major incidents involving them. Even till the late 60s it was possible to ride an open platform on the Wabash Cannon Ball as it was regularly assigned.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 19, 2018)

I didn't say it was unsafe... I said im surprised it's been allowed both by the railroads and by the private cars insurrance.

I've ridden open vestibules and open platforms on the mainline... It is fun, im not arguing that. Ha. Although even a light rain gets painful at 79 mph as you know im sure!


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 19, 2018)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I didn't say it was unsafe... I said im surprised it's been allowed both by the railroads and by the private cars insurrance.
> 
> I've ridden open vestibules and open platforms on the mainline... It is fun, im not arguing that. Ha. Although even a light rain gets painful at 79 mph as you know im sure!


Wait till you do it in a pounding super cell thunderstorm at night at 80 mph with a steam locomotive pulling you. Even with my hard hat on, and safety glasses on it was painful as come be. But it's probably one of my most cherished memories.

We were deadheading forty miles from Joliet going at track speed with 765 and twelve cars. I remember watching the Mars light lighting up the sheets of rain. It was special. Just wow.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 19, 2018)

It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 19, 2018)

Bob Dylan said:


> It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)


We were all part of the crew though we wouldn't have let passengers do it. Crew life is the best life. My partner for that trip who is a magazine reporter in his actual day to day life sat in the front of the dome. The hardened railroaders were all out there.


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## railiner (Jun 19, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> > It may have been exciting but it sounds unsafe,uncomfortable and actually sort of dumb!( I'm old enough to have gotten to ride in lots of open vestibles and platforms but not in bad weather)
> ...


Next to riding in a cab, I'll take the front seat in a short dome over any other seat on a train, including an open rear platform....


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## zephyr17 (Jun 19, 2018)

railiner said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Dylan said:
> ...


Me too.


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## neroden (Jun 19, 2018)

Open platforms are about as safe as it gets, for an interesting reason: they *look* potentially unsafe. Therefore people are actually careful when they're on them.

It's things which *look* safe -- which look safe enough for people to start being careless -- which are dangerous.


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## Seaboard92 (Jun 20, 2018)

neroden said:


> Open platforms are about as safe as it gets, for an interesting reason: they *look* potentially unsafe. Therefore people are actually careful when they're on them.
> 
> It's things which *look* safe -- which look safe enough for people to start being careless -- which are dangerous.


And don't forget in a lot of cases the platforms are under the watchful eye of staff almost constantly. And I will speak just for myself but I will not allow children unattended, or anyone under the influence of any substance out onto the platform.




This is the picture of the offending event that caused this new ruling. What should be noted one of those is a Vice President at Metro North the track owner in the photo, another is a marketing manager, and operations manager from the Providence and Worcester which has trackage rights at this location.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 8, 2019)

The NJ Chamber Of Commerce is operating. I'm not exactly surprised since this is a political train.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Feb 8, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> The NJ Chamber Of Commerce is operating. I'm not exactly surprised since this is a political train.


If I have this right, this is the biggest NJ schmooze event of the year--they hop on the train, have a great time, and end up in Washington to promote NJ's interests. Even political foes seem to turn into best buddies on the train!


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 8, 2019)

New River Train will not be running unless the organization can find 380k. So while Anderson and Gardner can cozy up to politicians. They can't cozy up to small businesses. 

Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already.


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## neroden (Feb 9, 2019)

Amtrak OIG says that Amtrak doesn't have a clue how much it costs to operate private cars.

https://amtrakoig.gov/report-records/audit-reports/train-operations-opportunities-exist-improve-private-railcar

 AARPCO responds saying that since Amtrak has no clue how much it costs, Amtrak is probably overcharging. (I've lost the link.)

Now, when will the OIG notice that Amtrak has no idea how much it costs to operate ANY of its routes (as documented in the RPA White Paper)?

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtraks-route-accounting-fatally-flawed-misleading-wrong/

I went ahead and filed a Waste, Abuse, and Fraud tip with the OIG.  If they can investigate private varnish accounting, they can investigate route accounting.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 9, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already.﻿


You are correct, I highly doubt that Anderson cares that you are no longer getting paid to play train on his railroad. 

Now what Amtrak SHOULD be doing is offering their own version of Private Car Service.


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## me_little_me (Feb 9, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You are correct, I highly doubt that Anderson cares that you are no longer getting paid to play train on his railroad.
> 
> Now what Amtrak SHOULD be doing is offering their own version of Private Car Service.


They have neither the brains nor the foresight.Even VIA has a Prestige Class on the Canadian.


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## cpotisch (Feb 9, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> > Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already.﻿
> ...


There is quite a bit more to it than that. Not only do PVs bring in revenue for Amtrak, but in many cases they can serve to introduce passengers to train travel and Amtrak's routes. The way you're talking about is almost as if it's just a bunch of random train cars hitching a ride for free, which it really isn't. There is such a thing as a mutually beneficial deal.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 9, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> There is quite a bit more to it than that. Not only do PVs bring in revenue for Amtrak, but in many cases they can serve to introduce passengers to train travel and Amtrak's routes. The way you're talking about is almost as if it's just a bunch of random train cars hitching a ride for free, which it really isn't. There is such a thing as a mutually beneficial deal.


I wasn't referencing if PV's do or do not bring in revenue for Amtrak. I've ridden PV's... I get it. 

But Amtrak still takes private cars on routes that it makes sense for them operationally. So they are still making money with private cars (in theory). 

But what annoys me is all the railfans whining because they can't piggy-back on Amtrak's insurance anymore. That was a pretty strange loop hole from the start, and I'm really surprised it lasted as long as it did. 

Yes... if you want to run a passenger train on a mainline railroad in the USA you'll have to pay for the insurance. It's not a right to be able to use Amtrak's insurance, that's not why they exist.


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## cpotisch (Feb 10, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I wasn't referencing if PV's do or do not bring in revenue for Amtrak. I've ridden PV's... I get it.
> 
> But Amtrak still takes private cars on routes that it makes sense for them operationally. So they are still making money with private cars (in theory).
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that it's a bad idea for Amtrak to have some kind of special especially luxurious service à la PV. What I am saying is that it isn't just Jon "No longer getting paid to play train on his railroad."  Do you dispute this point?


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 10, 2019)

You are trying to make my earlier post more broad than it was meant to be.  I quoted  Seaboard saying "Nor do they care about all of us who are unemployed because of their actions. And we're the ones who are successful in getting multiple first time riders on board. Unlike a political train on the corridor where they likely use it already.﻿" 

That's the only thing I was commenting on. I thought it was silly that anyone at Amtrak would care if Private Operators (or those who work for them) are out of a job. That's irrelevant to Amtrak's business.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 10, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Now what Amtrak SHOULD be doing is offering their own version of Private Car Service.






me_little_me said:


> They have neither the brains nor the foresight.Even VIA has a Prestige Class on the Canadian.


Yes...I can't imagine anything that would make Congress happier: Amtrak operating their own brand of private cars on the taxpayer's dime.

Yeah.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 10, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Yes...I can't imagine anything that would make Congress happier: Amtrak operating their own brand of private cars on the taxpayer's dime.
> 
> Yeah.


Well.. they already operate 1 that is 100% on the taxpayers dime. At least these would be partially paid for by the passengers! 

But yes, you are correct.. politically it really wouldn't work.  And even if it could work politically, I'm not sure Amtrak knows how to provide a truly first class product consistently.


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## jis (Feb 11, 2019)

Politically upper class service can be and is justified elsewhere after standard class service is provided adequately. Unfortunately in the extremely limited budgetary situation with a zero sum game that is something that will be hard to pull off. We are lucky to have the Sleeper service that we do have, politically speaking that is.

For example, in India, in order to justify operating the Rajdhani Expresses, of which many make money hand over fist, and a few lose money like there is no tomorrow too, trains on close to equivalent schedule for the not so well to do have to be operated, even though most of the accommodation on Rajdhanis is 3 Tier Sleeper. So there are plethora of other trains like the Garib Rath (literally "poor man's chariot" carrying only dense pack 3 tier sleepers), Humsafar (non reserved second class AC) and what not  - expresses, in addition to the classic mail/express trains. Any non-AC train is restricted to 120kph in general, with very few exceptions, but even for AC trains the poor man's version has more crowded layout and such to basically try to collect the same net net in fares as from the rich man's train. One thing interesting though - a Chair Car is not considered an acceptable substitute for a Sleeper. Consequently they have designed Sleepers that will hold as many as a Chair Car. Crowded? Yes. But it is a flat surface to sleep on, and not a chair in which to go through weird contortions to try to sleep. Chair Cars are offered as an even cheaper alternative, even though they do not hold any more people.

While details may vary, the politics may be quite similar elsewhere, and places where the Rail Budget does not make or break a government, it is harder to come by the overall funding needed for infrastructure and rolling stock to pull such off. In the US an equivalent situation exists in highway funding, but alas not for passenger rail.


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## neroden (Feb 11, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I wasn't referencing if PV's do or do not bring in revenue for Amtrak. I've ridden PV's... I get it.
> 
> But Amtrak still takes private cars on routes that it makes sense for them operationally. So they are still making money with private cars (in theory).
> 
> ...


The fundamental problem, I am told, is that you can't purchase the insurance for any price whatsoever. 

It's basically piggyback on Amtrak's insurance or give up.  Amtrak should absolutely *charge money* to piggyback on Amtrak's insurance, but given that the private insurance companies are simply avoiding the market entirely, it makes sense for Amtrak to step in and offer the insurance. (I believe Amtrak has a captive insurance company.)


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 11, 2019)

neroden said:


> The fundamental problem, I am told, is that you can't purchase the insurance for any price whatsoever.
> 
> It's basically piggyback on Amtrak's insurance or give up.  Amtrak should absolutely *charge money* to piggyback on Amtrak's insurance, but given that the private insurance companies are simply avoiding the market entirely, it makes sense for Amtrak to step in and offer the insurance. (I believe Amtrak has a captive insurance company.)


Well, because by law, Amtrak must carry insurance. Other carriers aren't necessarily required to carry insurance by  law

As such, Amtrak is forced to carry it but that does that mean the can sell it to someone else?


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 11, 2019)

I’ve never heard that it’s impossible to purchase it, it’s just extremely expensive.


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## neroden (Feb 11, 2019)

Amtrak uses "Passenger Railroad Insurance, Limited", a Bermuda company which it owns entirely, to provide its insurance.

Where do other operators go to get insurance?  I've never shopped for it.  I really was told you couldn't buy it.  Maybe I'm wrong.

I mean, *almost everyone in the railroad business self-insures*.  What insurance company actually offers these insurance policies?


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## jis (Feb 12, 2019)

I was under the impression that the Bermuda outfit is a conduit for Swiss Re or some such re-insurer to provide excess insurance beyond some very high amount upto which Amtrak is self-insured. But I could be wrong since this is a recollection from several years back.

Clearly Amtrak cannot just sell bare insurance policies. It can insure trains or equipment in train that it operates commercially or under contract, and I suppose include an imputed cost of it as part of the contract price. Apparently freight railroads don't want to be as charitable, assuming the issues of rough handling etc. are somehow mitigated for PVs.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 12, 2019)

Union Pacific and Norfolk Southern have operated public excursions in the past few years on their tracks without Amtrak involvement.  Naturally they have $$$ to spend and can probably just add on to their existing insurance.


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## jis (Feb 12, 2019)

Operating an entire Chartered train may be less complicated to handle than attaching a PV or two to a freight train, like is the more common usage on Amtrak trains. Our friends Seaboard once mentioned that there are significant rough handling issue when attached to a freight train.

Of course, in either case the exposure has to be covered somehow, and when transporting people, the financial exposure is probably an or der or two magnitude greater than when conveying freight.


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## crescent-zephyr (Feb 12, 2019)

Oh yeah, you can’t add passenger cars on to a freight train. They operate in totally different ways.

i was talking about the ability to operate passenger care on a mainline at all without Amtrak.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 12, 2019)

I wish I still had the after affects of a Budd diner that road a freight train after New River that we had to do a renovation on. 

There is one company offering insurance now to the operators that claims to be at Amtrak levels. And that is United Shortline. I do not know however what the cost of it is.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 27, 2019)

Well I should be the person to announce this because I'm the most connected chapter member to this group. 

I've hinted at it before but now it's official. New River Train made its last run in 2018. It is now officially dead. 

Some of our own stupid decisions, and a lot of Amtrak's decisions have ruined our organization and we are unable to operate the 53rd annual New River Train. The organization is in bankruptcy and will likely not recover from the pitfalls of this. 

Joe, Chris, and I are all very upset about this. And all of us are without jobs because of this. I'm working full time currently as a Vet Tech so I've landed on my feet but not in a trade or field that I honestly want to be in for a career. And the others haven't. 

So without further interruption here is the media article. 

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2019/02/26-west-virginias-new-river-train-wont-run-in-2019

I feel very depressed now.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 27, 2019)

Sorry to hear that man.  Hopefully things will change for the better in the future.  Having a job you actually love is a rare accomplishment in my experience.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Feb 27, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> I'm working full time currently as a Vet Tech so I've landed on my feet but not in a trade or field that I honestly want to be in for a career.


You are an intelligent person with lots of interests and skills--there is work out there just made for you  .

And meanwhile, even if veterinary medicine is not your career field, helping the animals is a good way to spend some time while you are considering your "real" career.


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## cpotisch (Feb 27, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> Well I should be the person to announce this because I'm the most connected chapter member to this group.
> 
> I've hinted at it before but now it's official. New River Train made its last run in 2018. It is now officially dead.
> 
> ...


Really sorry, Jon. 

Best of luck, and as Patty said, at least your current job at a vet is a nice enough place to figure out where you want to go next (and has a purpose you can feel proud of).


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 27, 2019)

I'm not a vet I'm a vet tech. Even though vet school could be interesting. I love the people I work with and our little adventures.


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## cpotisch (Feb 27, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> I'm not a vet I'm a vet tech. Even though vet school could be interesting. I love the people I work with and our little adventures.


Was a typo, meant to write “at a vet”, not “as a vet”. :blush:

I’m glad to hear you love some parts of the job. Even if you don’t want this to be your career, you have some time to figure things out.


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