# New Coach Seating Procedure: Long Distance Trains on NEC



## pennyk (Dec 15, 2019)

According to my sleeping car attendant (formerly a coach attendant), starting today, coach attendants will no longer assign seats on the Silver Meteor. Passengers will sit wherever they choose to sit. I am assuming this will apply to the Silver Star also since the crews are pretty much the same. There is some concern that seats will not be left open for families.

EDIT to add that this policy will apply to long distance trains that travel along the NEC, according to Thirdrail7.


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## LookingGlassTie (Dec 15, 2019)

I think I had read elsewhere that seat assignments tend to make it easier for the crews to determine which passengers are getting on and getting off at which stations and grouping them accordingly. I don't know how true that is, but if seat assignments are done away with, how will the crews accomplish that?

Like for instance, when I rode the Silver Meteor from RVR to ORL over two years ago, I was getting ready to board and a coach attendant (or Conductor, not sure) asked me where I was going and directed me to the proper coach car. So my concern is that there might be more confusion when the SM stops at a station and the crew members have to direct detraining passengers out from different cars at that station.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 15, 2019)

Well for starters, we’ve all seen Amtrak crews directly disobey rules when it comes to food service operating hours, dining car procedures, etc. so I’m guessing some crews will still assign seats. 

They can also still assign by car, as certain cars will train / detrain at certain platforms. 

Will be an interesting experiment.


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## pennyk (Dec 15, 2019)

I am thinking (but not sure and I can no longer ask since I am off the train) that passengers will still be boarded by destination and a seat check will be placed above their seat. Otherwise, it will be chaotic.


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## Qapla (Dec 15, 2019)

I have noticed announcements to the effect that you should "walk forward/back to the train car with the open door" at stations with short platforms. This should work if the seats are assigned or not assigned.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 15, 2019)

Another way to drive away customers?

Have to relocate passenger in the middle of the night so a family can sit together? Is it going to be up-to the family to ask people to move, or will the conductor do it?

When you start down the path of the conspiracy theory, it so easy to loose sight of reality. On the other hand it makes so much more sense of the things Amtrak, government, and people do when you think it’s all a (ploy, spin, or plot) for a certain outcome. Especially when it’s not a outcome you want.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 15, 2019)

It’s one thing if all doors open at a stop but if only one vestibule is opened I can see a lot of issues.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 15, 2019)

Qapla said:


> I have noticed announcements to the effect that you should "walk forward/back to the train car with the open door" at stations with short platforms. This should work if the seats are assigned or not assigned.



You have to look at the passengers. On the nec, mostly business travelers with something like a briefcase or laptop bag or college students with a backpack. Asking them to move ahead or back one car is fine. On the long distance trains (especially those serving Florida!) you’re going to have families with small children and lots of seniors. Asking those passengers to move through cars with luggage for no reason is downright mean.


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## the_traveler (Dec 15, 2019)

I still think it will be done by cars. 

Just 2 weeks ago, I was on the SM going to FBG (where only 1 door opens). When I boarded, I was told what car to sit in but I could chose any seat. Yes, I did board at NYP but other passengers (including my seat mates - who each boarded later at different stops) were also free to chose any open seat. (I think one boarded at TRE and the other at ALX.)


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## cocojacoby (Dec 15, 2019)

They shouldn't do this unless they have a seat selection option when you make your reservation. This is going to be chaotic especially for couples and families boarding in the middle of the night in the middle of a route.


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 15, 2019)

pennyk said:


> According to my sleeping car attendant (formerly a coach attendant), starting today, coach attendants will no longer assign seats on the Silver Meteor. Passengers will sit wherever they choose to sit. I am assuming this will apply to the Silver Star also since the crews are pretty much the same. There is some concern that seats will not be left open for families.



You should probably change the title. This isn't just the Meteor. They basically abolished the boarding plan for long-distance trains to accommodate the NEC, who are accustomed to sitting anywhere they want. They want to speed the train over the NEC and they believe the boarding plan prolongs station stops. So, now it will be a sort of free for all. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> Well for starters, we’ve all seen Amtrak crews directly disobey rules when it comes to food service operating hours, dining car procedures, etc. so I’m guessing some crews will still assign seats.
> 
> They can also still assign by car, as certain cars will train / detrain at certain platforms.
> 
> Will be an interesting experiment.






Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Another way to drive away customers?
> 
> Have to relocate passenger in the middle of the night so a family can sit together? Is it going to be up-to the family to ask people to move, or will the conductor do it?



Well, basically when you're aren't given clear guidelines, you'll get freelancing crews. A lot of questions and situations were broached and the guidelines aren't clear. So, you get a "yes" with a "but" or a "no" with an "if" which translates into a "maybe" with a "when." 

At the end of the day, it boiled down "do what you think is best," so I fully expect some to carry out a boarding plan based upon the manifest while others just throw in the towel and "give them what the want."


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## pennyk (Dec 15, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> You should probably change the title. This isn't just the Meteor. They basically abolished the boarding plan for long-distance trains to accommodate the NEC, who are accustomed to sitting anywhere they want. They want to speed the train over the NEC and they believe the boarding plan prolongs station stops. So, now it will be a sort of free for all.



Thanks. I changed the title to Long Distance trains. Will this apply to western LD trains or just eastern LD trains?


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 15, 2019)

pennyk said:


> Thanks. I changed the title to Long Distance trains. Will this apply to western LD trains or just eastern LD trains?



I'm not aware of Western LD trains plying the NEC. 

Seriously, I know the trains plying the NEC that had boarding plans will no longer have them. This includes the long-distance trains like the Palmetto (which actually carried add on cars to accommodate local NEC passengers) and the Carolinian, which is a state-supported train but has a boarding plan (which was impossible to enforce on the NEC but everyone just blamed the employees on the front line since some attempted to follow the procedures while others said no way." )


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 15, 2019)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## AFS1970 (Dec 16, 2019)

probably 90% of my Amtrak travel is NEC and always for leisure. I travel with luggage. It is not that bad. I have picked bags that are easy to move down the aisles. Occasionally on very crowded trains if I pick the wrong place to stand on the platform, I will stow bags in the large bag shelf in one car, walk to other cars with my wife and find seats. Once we have claimed a homestead, I will go back and move the bags to our car. That is a rare occurrence but I have done it more than once.

Only twice have I not been able to sit with my wife and of that once was only for a few stops. Last year going to Philadelphia a conductor saw us looking and found us two single seats 1 row apart, one of which was with someone who was getting off in two stops. So when the other passenger left, I got up moved and sat with my wife. The other time was years ago before they ever called a train sold out. It was standing room only coming from Baltimore back home. We ended up as part of a group that rotated seats hourly so we all got a chance to sit down for part of the trip.

So while it is really not that bad to find your own seats, I would be in favor of a plan that let you pick your seats when you booked your tickets, my local movie theater just started this so how hard can it be?


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## drdumont (Dec 16, 2019)

I think we need to give some credit to most of the Trainmen = OK, OK, and Trainwomen. They try to do things to ease everyone's journey, and try to ease their jobs.
They will try to herd people to an appropriate car, they actually talk to pax in person and on the PA about seating when they know there will be a crush. I've seen them mark out sections "Please reserve these seats for families and groups", and other strategies to keep things moving along.
They don't want the tsouris any more than the pax.
Indeed, there's always gonna be some horse's patoot who demands his own two seats, or fights the system, in this less than gentle age. So therew deal with the problem on the spot.
Logically, any plan that would help to keep me from riding past my destination would please me. But then, I have a little bit of a brain and engage it properly.


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## John Bobinyec (Dec 16, 2019)

Sounds like they're getting closer to what they do on the Piedmonts. Passengers are directed to a specific car (grouped by destination) and within that car can sit anywhere - with one exception - they must avoid the seats that have the blue signs posted over them. The blue signs are used to reserve seats for small groups of people (3 or 4) and also for those with disabilities.

Everyone is seat checked. The system works just fine.

So all they need now is the blue signs.

jb


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## cocojacoby (Dec 16, 2019)

John Bobinyec said:


> Sounds like they're getting closer to what they do on the Piedmonts. Passengers are directed to a specific car (grouped by destination) and within that car can sit anywhere - with one exception - they must avoid the seats that have the blue signs posted over them. The blue signs are used to reserve seats for small groups of people (3 or 4) and also for those with disabilities.
> 
> Everyone is seat checked. The system works just fine.
> 
> ...



Is this the plan though, or is it going to be a free-for-all?

I was thinking maybe Amtrak should try a different color scheme. How about a Red, White and Blue seating plan:

Red tickets for Reserved Coach seats that will guarantee you and your travel partner(s) seats together. Maybe there is a $5 fee to select your seats online?

White for Unreserved Coach seats in a designated car for the lowest fare for people who just want to get from point A to point B.

Blue for reserved Business Class Seats for those who want a little more.


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## TiBike (Dec 16, 2019)

Eliminating negative customer service experiences is more important than providing positive ones. People remember the negative stuff and talk about it – that's not a trait limited to people on this board . There are two problems with having staff assign seats on the train.

First, passengers are used to choosing their own seats, either when making a reservation (most airlines) or walking on board (Southwest, corridor and commuter trains, and pretty much every other form of public transportation). Taking that choice away is annoying at best and upsetting at worst. A friend of mine is a "never again" after what he perceived to be an unnecessary and unpleasant such encounter with staff on the Starlight. I had the same reaction the first couple of times I was told to sit somewhere I didn't want to sit.

Second, customer service skills (or perhaps willingness to use them) vary widely among staff. It's all about customer perceptions. What a staff member might think is a perfectly reasonable way to give instructions to passengers can be perceived as being told off. And then there are staff who do bark instructions at passengers.

If you let passengers choose their own seats and then deal with any problems that do come up (which seems to be the de facto standard on the Starlight in recent years), there will be fewer potentially negative interactions with staff, overall.

Another benefit, which might horrify some on this board, is that it'll help normalise long distance train travel. The more it resembles the experience people have on other forms of transportation, particularly planes and other types of trains, the more likely the expectations of new and/or infrequent riders will be met. That's how you attract and keep new customers, which Amtrak needs to do.


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## RSG (Dec 16, 2019)

AFS1970 said:


> So while it is really not that bad to find your own seats, I would be in favor of a plan that let you pick your seats when you booked your tickets, my local movie theater just started this so how hard can it be?


It's probably a bit more complicated than the average passenger would think. Even with the movie theaters that have reserved seating I notice a few glitches. One is that the actual location of the seats can be confusing. For one theater chain of my acquaintance, the mobile app for advance ticketing shows the screen at the top of the device screen, as one would be seated in an auditorium. But when you go to the box office of the same theater to buy tickets, the display screen from which you choose shows the screen at the bottom of the display screen, as if you are looking at the seats from the stage.

Likewise, since trains are different than planes, I could see someone thinking they are getting a window seat on the left side of the car traveling in a specific direction, when the end result places them in a seat on the right side of the car in their direction of travel. Along with that, do pax get to change their seats? When, and how often?

A better model might be to have a decision tree of sorts, so that passengers when booking are asked how many are travelling in their party and how many window or aisle seats they need (along with a "no preference" option). There might be one other qualifier, such as being near or away from the restroom (similar to hotels which inquire about proximity to elevators). One advantage of doing advance seating requests is that those needing wheelchair or other ADA accommodation would be able to note that on the request form, thus giving train (and station staff, where applicable) a heads-up. Then let the reservation system pre-assign seats from there.


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## NativeSon5859 (Dec 16, 2019)

I’ve been avoiding Amtrak coach lately out of New Orleans...and sticking to FlixBus and Greyhound... because I can sit where I want to. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve become increasingly annoyed with the coach seating arrangement on Amtrak. Just tired of the archaic system of being being handed a seat number when boarding the car. 

I do like the idea of the blue signs which say “reserved for couples only.” Have that on six or so rows per car and have the rest open seating.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 16, 2019)

TiBike said:


> First, passengers are used to choosing their own seats, either when making a reservation (most airlines) or walking on board (Southwest,



The difference with southwest is they can pre-board passengers with disabilities and families with small children.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 16, 2019)

NativeSon5859 said:


> I’ve been avoiding Amtrak coach lately out of New Orleans...and sticking to FlixBus and Greyhound... because I can sit where I want to. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve become increasingly annoyed with the coach seating arrangement on Amtrak. Just tired of the archaic system of being being handed a seat number when boarding the car.
> 
> I do like the idea of the blue signs which say “reserved for couples only.” Have that on six or so rows per car and have the rest open seating.



You are welcome to choose the way you travel but wow. Even if I get a bad seat on amtrak (which I have) I can always go hang out in the lounge where I can... gasp.. choose any seat I want! The odds are in my favor of getting a fine seat on amtrak, the only ones I don't like are the ones too close to the doors or the ones with no, or hardly no window. (Unless the infamous forum lounge police are in attendance, and then they will set a timer and eject me from the lounge!)


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## TiBike (Dec 16, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The difference with southwest is they can pre-board passengers with disabilities and families with small children.



Unless they show up late, then staff work it out. Pleasantly and professionally. I've never seen it turn into a problem. For that matter I can't recall an unpleasant interaction with Southwest staff, and I fly Southwest a lot more than I ride Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 16, 2019)

TiBike said:


> Unless they show up late, then staff work it out. Pleasantly and professionally. I've never seen it turn into a problem. For that matter I can't recall an unpleasant interaction with Southwest staff, and I fly Southwest a lot more than I ride Amtrak.


 I love Southwest! If they would offer a business class style seat I would be 100% loyal to them. I don't need the amenities that Delta etc. provide but I need to know I will have a comfortable seat for the flight. I Agree they have great staff. 

But let's be realistic... do you want to be woken up at 3 AM by an amtrak attendant offering a free drink coupon to anyone who is willing to move to allow a family to sit together? (which is what I have seen Southwest do). It's a different operation.


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## Seaboard92 (Dec 16, 2019)

Southwest also has something else Amtrak doesn’t have. All the passengers are getting on in one location and all getting off in another. So the staff won’t be searching for someone in the middle of the night who is getting off at an intermediate point. 

I’m not the largest fan of the Amtrak seating assignments either but I see why they are needed. And it seams to me the people who run and make a lot of the decisions in the company aren’t familiar with the vast majority of the network outside of corridor land.


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## TiBike (Dec 16, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> But let's be realistic... do you want to be woken up at 3 AM by an amtrak attendant offering a free drink coupon to anyone who is willing to move to allow a family to sit together? (which is what I have seen Southwest do). It's a different operation.



If I could redeem the coupon at 3am, it wouldn't be so bad .

It's a trade off – the occasional possibility of upsetting a handful of passengers by waking them up versus the certainty of subjecting all passengers to an interaction that will annoy many of them and royally **** off some of them. There are ways to minimise the upsets – selectively boarding cars or blocking off seats (which staff already do for their own use) seem like good suggestions.


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## TiBike (Dec 16, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> Southwest also has something else Amtrak doesn’t have. All the passengers are getting on in one location and all getting off in another. So the staff won’t be searching for someone in the middle of the night who is getting off at an intermediate point.



Strictly speaking, that's not true. Some people stay onboard Southwest flights at intermediate stops. It is different, though.

There's nothing preventing Amtrak staff from using seat checks to keep track of who's going where, or from giving a passenger who picked an aisle seat a friendly heads up that the guy in the window seat will be getting off at 3am. It's about creating a system that minimises the number of passengers who have a negative experience (of whatever magnitude).


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## OlympianHiawatha (Dec 16, 2019)

There is no reason this will not work and work smoothly. Each Coach is designated to pax traveling to specific destinations, and set procedures are in place to locate extra pax if a station along the way boards heavy causing that Coach to overflow.. The Conductors and Attendants can keep a running tally sheet of how many destination pax are located where, and when that stop comes up, know which doors to open to get them off and slot the boarding pax into the appropriate Coach(es).


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## jis (Dec 16, 2019)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> There is no reason this will not work and work smoothly. Each Coach is designated to pax traveling to specific destinations, and set procedures are in place to locate extra pax if a station along the way boards heavy causing that Coach to overflow.. The Conductors and Attendants can keep a running tally sheet of how many destination pax are located where, and when that stop comes up, know which doors to open to get them off and slot the boarding pax into the appropriate Coach(es).


I agree. The situation where this breaks down a bit is if the train is so long that all relevant cars cannot platform at the same time. Even with the relatively short Amtrak trains, this does occur at a few stations with remarkably short platforms on the LD network though, which is at least a bit of a headache requiring double and triple spots.


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## RebelRider (Dec 16, 2019)

Qapla said:


> I have noticed announcements to the effect that you should "walk forward/back to the train car with the open door" at stations with short platforms. This should work if the seats are assigned or not assigned.



Right, because PA announcements at 3 AM for Denmark, SC are very much appreciated by the 150 passengers who aren't going to Denmark. Instead of grouping all the DNKs in one car, they could now be spread out amongst four cars.



Thirdrail7 said:


> You should probably change the title. This isn't just the Meteor. They basically abolished the boarding plan for long-distance trains to accommodate the NEC, who are accustomed to sitting anywhere they want. They want to speed the train over the NEC and they believe the boarding plan prolongs station stops. So, now it will be a sort of free for all.
> 
> Well, basically when you're aren't given clear guidelines, you'll get freelancing crews. A lot of questions and situations were broached and the guidelines aren't clear. So, you get a "yes" with a "but" or a "no" with an "if" which translates into a "maybe" with a "when."
> 
> At the end of the day, it boiled down "do what you think is best," so I fully expect some to carry out a boarding plan based upon the manifest while others just throw in the towel and "give them what the want."



Since this just started, I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with it yet. I may have more comments once seen in practice.

That said, this is a self-inflicted wound. The long hauls didn't local carry NEC passengers for the longest time. Then it became holidays only and now daily. Passengers who ride 15% of the route don't like being told to sit in the first car of the train, so crews have to deal with the fall-out for the remaining 85% of the route. It's funny NEC passengers are complaining about being told where to sit. According to Amtrak, assigned seating is what everyone wants, hence why it's rolling out to Business Class in January. I don't believe anyone making these decisions has actually ridden these trains, or possibly any train at all.

From all the Miami OBS people I've spoken to, no one has any idea how this is supposed to work due to the complete lack of guidance mentioned above. Many have interpreted this as no more seat assignments on the entire route, either out of true belief or spite for management. We're worried about an extra 1 or 2 dwell minutes on the precious NEC, but who cares if we spend extra time anywhere off corridor trying to get the right people off at the right stop. Platform might only be wide enough for one door. Are those passengers now spread throughout all the cars? And Heaven forbid we have a carry by.

While we're on the topic of local NEC carry, does anyone know where that revenue/ridership is posted? One would hope it's being credited to the long haul route, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak allocates all of it to NEC Regional revenue/ridership.


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## Qapla (Dec 16, 2019)

On some of the trains it seems the seating has not always been "assigned" on the desire to "find" passengers who need to get off at a certain stop in the middle of the night. Sometimes it seems to also include the staff knowing which car will be stopping at and opening the door at stops with short platforms. I have noticed that sometimes they attempt to place a car at the platform that allows traffic on the road to resume as the train passes as it approaches the station. That places a car with the exit at the platform but it may not have been the car you got on when you boarded.

Of course, no matter what system is used - someone will not like it.


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## the_traveler (Dec 16, 2019)

I still don’t see any problem with having any passengers getting off in (say) FBG sitting anywhere in the 3rd car, anyone going to RMT (middle of the night stop) in the 4th car, ORL any car, etc... Conductors go thru the cars (even at night) and look at the seat checks and only wake that person up.

I do agree that there should be some set aside and indicated as for “couples or groups only”.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 16, 2019)

the_traveler said:


> I still don’t see any problem with having any passengers getting off in (say) FBG sitting anywhere in the 3rd car, anyone going to RMT (middle of the night stop) in the 4th car, ORL any car, etc... Conductors go thru the cars (even at night) and look at the seat checks and only wake that person up.
> 
> I do agree that there should be some set aside and indicated as for “couples or groups only”.



In general that’s exactly what was happening. On top of that some attendants were assigning seats, but they would typically allow reasonable requests if you wanted a window seat etc. The problem seems to be that solo passengers don’t like being assigned a seat with another passenger, so they think it’s unfair. The attendant assigning seats assures that virtually all groups get to sit together, and that they don’t have to wander the train looking for seats.


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## Qapla (Dec 16, 2019)

the_traveler said:


> I still don’t see any problem with having any passengers getting off in (say) FBG sitting anywhere in the 3rd car, anyone going to RMT (middle of the night stop) in the 4th car, ORL any car, etc... Conductors go thru the cars (even at night) and look at the seat checks and only wake that person up.



The problem is not waking the person up that needs to get off ... When the people who need to get off "in the middle of the night" are all seated in the same car - only that car gets disturbed by those getting off. However, if someone is three cars from the open door, even if the Conductor or Attendant may quietly wake them for their departure, the person has to get their carry-on from the rack and then walk through three cars hitting the chairs and passengers with their bags as they make their way to the car with the open door.


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## the_traveler (Dec 16, 2019)

Qapla said:


> The problem is not waking the person up that needs to get off ... When the people who need to get off "in the middle of the night" are all seated in the same car - only that car gets disturbed by those getting off. However, if someone is three cars from the open door, even if the Conductor or Attendant may quietly wake them for their departure, the person has to get their carry-on from the rack and then walk through three cars hitting the chairs and passengers with their bags as they make their way to the car with the open door.


I have detrained at SLC at 3:30 am. The conductor came thru the car, shined his light at the seat checks on the luggage rack, noticed I was getting off at SLC and was in the aisle seat and woke me up at 3 am. (I was in coach.) 

This allowed time to wake up, get my bags, not disturb other sleeping passengers and get my backs and get downstairs on the Superliner without disturbing other sleeping passengers.

I have also boarded at SLC at 3:30 am. I had NO problem being assigned a seat next to someone and sitting in an aisle seat.


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## Palmetto (Dec 17, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You are welcome to choose the way you travel but wow. Even if I get a bad seat on amtrak (which I have) I can always go hang out in the lounge where I can... gasp.. choose any seat I want! The odds are in my favor of getting a fine seat on amtrak, the only ones I don't like are the ones too close to the doors or the ones with no, or hardly no window. (Unless the infamous forum lounge police are in attendance, and then they will set a timer and eject me from the lounge!)



I think you'll find it difficult, as a coach passenger, to access the lounge


crescent-zephyr said:


> In general that’s exactly what was happening. On top of that some attendants were assigning seats, but they would typically allow reasonable requests if you wanted a window seat etc. The problem seems to be that solo passengers don’t like being assigned a seat with another passenger, so they think it’s unfair. The attendant assigning seats assures that virtually all groups get to sit together, and that they don’t have to wander the train looking for seats.



What do those poor solo passengers do when they fly [if they fly]? "My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.


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## jis (Dec 17, 2019)

Palmetto said:


> What do those poor solo passengers do when they fly [if they fly]? "My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.


The claim about solo passengers is mostly a strawman. Some may do so but that does not mean all do so. Beating up solo passengers any which way seems to be a favorite pastime of some.


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## the_traveler (Dec 17, 2019)

Palmetto said:


> I think you'll find it difficult, as a coach passenger, to access the lounge.


Why would it be difficult for a coach passenger to access the lounge?

On western trains, the SSL is open to all. On both eastern and western trains, the cafe car is called “the lounge”! Only on the eastern train is the “sleeping car lounge” (formerly the dining car) not available to coach passengers.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 17, 2019)

Palmetto said:


> "My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.


The only thing more absurd than solo coach travelers expecting social isolation is the presumed need for couples and adult relatives to spend every waking moment joined at the hip.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 17, 2019)

When I rode the Broadway Limited in 1973 between Chicago and Baltimore/North Philadelphia, there was total open seating in coach, and there didn't seem to be any problem. When I rode the Capitol Limited in 1988 (pre-Superliner), there was open seating in cars pre-selected by destination, so that those of us riding the full distance weren't disturbed by people detraining in Canton or Pittsburgh or whatever. That also worked out all right. When I rode coach on a very full Silver Star in 2012, I was assigned a seat by the coach attendant on the Platform before I boarded. That was OK, too. I got a window seat, with someone who boarded earlier already sitting in the aisle. (She was a mom whose two kids were in the seat pair across the aisle.) It was a bit uncomfortable having to ask her to move every time I wanted to use the restroom or go to the cafe car, but I managed. Anyway, that family got off in Orlando, and I had both seats to myself the rest of the way to Tampa.

When I travel the NEC with my wife and daughter, it's pretty common that we can't find seats together. So we suck it up and sit apart. But the ride is never more than 2 or three hours, so it's not such a big deal. Plus, we could go to the cafe car if we really wanted to all sit together.

Short of setting up pre-reserved seating like the airlines, I think maybe open seating in cars pre-selected by destination is probably the best alternative. It's not perfect, but it reduces dwell time at intermediate stops because the crew doesn't have to deal with every individual passenger on the platform, and it one less opportunity for certain crew members to interact with the passengers like a USMC DI with new recruits as Parriss Island. (Getting shouted at by a "drill sergeant" is one of the less endearing aspects of the Amtrak travel experience and should be restricted to matters strictly related to safety.)


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 17, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> and it one less opportunity for certain crew members to interact with the passengers like a USMC DI with new recruits as Parriss Island. (Getting shouted at by a "drill sergeant" is one of the less endearing aspects of the Amtrak travel experience and should be restricted to matters strictly related to safety.)



Most of the coach attendants who have assigned me seats have been very nice about it. But yes this does happen I’m sure. My worst experience ever was a station agent in Cary South Carolina. I was traveling in a sleeper so I was just sitting down in the waiting area and he called me by name and when I went to check with him he scolded me for not being in the line. He then insisted that I stand In the line of sleeping car passengers (there was like 3 others?) so he could “escort us to the platforms” - which was just outside the door. You can’t make it up.


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## Palmland (Dec 17, 2019)

Great idea, the passengers choose their own seats. Should eliminate delays at boarding when often a line forms waiting for a crew member to hand out slips of paper with seat assignment. Hopefully the agent at staffed stations will be directing passengers where to stand as the train arrives. Should speed up station dwell time. 

Passengers are happier when they get the seat they want. Assume some of the seats will have a sign on them ‘reserved for Families’ as they do now.

For deboarding a crew member checks your overhead seat check for destination and wakes you if necessary. Except for rare holidays, eastern trains have no more than 4 coaches. If the vestibule in the middle is used, passenger needs to move no more than just one car ahead (or to the rear) to get off.


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## jis (Dec 18, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> My worst experience ever was a station agent in *Cary South Carolina*.


Cary North Carolina, a short distance from Raleigh.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 18, 2019)

jis said:


> Cary North Carolina, a short distance from Raleigh.



Ah... good catch. Yeah of course I had ridden the Piedmont train from Charlotte... the Piedmont never goes through South Carolina! ha.


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## Qapla (Dec 18, 2019)

I've never had someone "hand me a slip of paper with my seat assignment" - they have just told me which door to enter the train if more than one door was open. As I was getting on at that door I was told to turn right/go forward or turn left/go toward the back to seat ## ... they came along later and placed the slip of paper in the rail with my destination.


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## RSG (Dec 18, 2019)

Qapla said:


> I've never had someone "hand me a slip of paper with my seat assignment" - they have just told me which door to enter the train if more than one door was open. As I was getting on at that door I was told to turn right/go forward or turn left/go toward the back to seat ## ... they came along later and placed the slip of paper in the rail with my destination.


During the redevelopment of Denver Union Station, when boarding at the temporary station, the outbound conductor would sit at a desk prior to train arrival and have passengers present tickets, and if travelling in coach, would issue a seat check to each passenger based on their destination. IIRC, the seats weren't assigned, per se, but passengers were grouped together. (Currently, all coach passengers are checked in on platform, as Amtrak front-of-the-counter space in DUS is practically non-existent.)

If space exists at a station with a service stop, it seems to me this would be a sound practice under the current boarding system.


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## Palmetto (Dec 18, 2019)

jis said:


> The claim about solo passengers is mostly a strawman. Some may do so but that does not mean all do so. Beating up solo passengers any which way seems to be a favorite pastime of some.



I was beating up on SOME solo passengers, as mentioned by one of the posters. Like you, I am a solo passenger who doesn't mind talking to strangers. As an aside, I chuckle reading comments about some passengers on British Airways Club World who find it awkward that they actually have to LOOK at each other during landing and takeoff, because the separation screen must be lowered in those moments.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 18, 2019)

Palmetto said:


> What do those poor solo passengers do when they fly [if they fly]? "My space" seems to have become a concept that has taken on WAY too much importance for some Americans.


I think the complaint by some of the solo passengers is that they're often assigned a seat with a seatmate in a care where there are still many empty seats available.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a desire to have a single seat to yourself, if it's available. I personally have a strong adverse physical reaction when my personal space is encroached upon, and I know many people whose physical aversion is stronger than mine. This is especially true if the person is a stranger, as you don't know whether they'll be a pleasant partner in conversation (as I recently had on the Carolinian between Alexandria and Wilson) or someone totally lacking in social skills and doesn't get the cues about your not wanting to talk. And solo women travelers are skittish about their chances of having seatmates who might get inappropriately physically close. 

Obviously, if the train is full, you have to suck it up and accept a seatmate, but I understand how a solo rider might resent being told by the attendant to sit with some random stranger when there are numerous empty seat pairs clearly visible.

As far as how I handle flying, well either the airline has pre-assigned seats, or it's Southwest with open seating and boarding in the order in which you've checked in. If it's pre-assigned seats, I can check the seating chart and I can clearly see whether I have any choice about seatmates, or whether the flight is packed full. Most airlines also allow you to change your seat selection after booking, so you have as much control as possible (which might not be a lot) of your seat selection. In fact, I have switched my seat from a full row to a seat where I had the whole row to myself. When I fly Southwest, I pay for Early Bird check in, which gets me close enough to the front of the boarding line that I can always find a aisle seat, which is what I prefer when flying. And the flight attendants never act like drill sergeants telling passengers where to sit.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 18, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> I think the complaint by some of the solo passengers is that they're often assigned a seat with a seatmate in a care where there are still many empty seats available.



That is indeed the complaint. It’s extremely sensible to want 2 seats to yourself. It’s also sensible for Amtrak to seat passengers in the most efficient way which means assigning solo passengers together. Both make sense. 

If you have 20 solo passengers in a car that seats 60, if you let them sit anywhere they want you now have 20 single seats taken up scattered throughout the car. That leaves you with only 20 seats as pairs.

If you assign seats, those 20 passengers will take up the first 20 seats in the car leaving you with 40 seats together as pairs.


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## JRR (Dec 19, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> That is indeed the complaint. It’s extremely sensible to want 2 seats to yourself. It’s also sensible for Amtrak to seat passengers in the most efficient way which means assigning solo passengers together. Both make sense.
> 
> If you have 20 solo passengers in a car that seats 60, if you let them sit anywhere they want you now have 20 single seats taken up scattered throughout the car. That leaves you with only 20 seats as pairs.
> 
> If you assign seats, those 20 passengers will take up the first 20 seats in the car leaving you with 40 seats together as pairs.



Traveling on VIA this fall (3 different trains), I had assigned seats each time. I was even asked if I wanted to sit facing forward or backwards and was given the best window seat. 

Seems like it can be done, if AMTRAK wanted to and cared!


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 19, 2019)

JRR said:


> Traveling on VIA this fall (3 different trains), I had assigned seats each time. I was even asked if I wanted to sit facing forward or backwards and was given the best window seat.
> 
> Seems like it can be done, if AMTRAK wanted to and cared!



When were the seats assigned? By computer or by the train crew?


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## Qapla (Dec 19, 2019)

The problem is that "one-size-does-not-fit-all"

While some like assigned seating - others do not. While some want to pick their own seats - others do not like that method.

It does not matter what system they use to assign seats, at the train or online, those who want to pick their seat when they board will still complain - if they don't assign any seats and let you pick your seat when you board ... those who want to "reserve" a particular seat will complain. There is no solution that works for everyone.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 19, 2019)

Qapla said:


> The problem is that "one-size-does-not-fit-all"
> 
> While some like assigned seating - others do not. While some want to pick their own seats - others do not like that method.
> 
> It does not matter what system they use to assign seats, at the train or online, those who want to pick their seat when they board will still complain - if they don't assign any seats and let you pick your seat when you board ... those who want to "reserve" as particular seat will complain. There is no solution that work for everyone.



Correct. It depends on the majority of the audience too. On the nec it’s mostly business people and students, lots of solo travelers which means that after they all take up 2 seats, they just start filling in the empty solo seats. In this case, passengers boarding as a couple or family are at a disadvantage. I know this personally, as when traveling with my mom to nyc on the Acela, we were in separate cars until Philadelphia where we could get 2 seats together. 

On the LD trains, the majority is couple and families traveling together. In this case, by assigning seats, this assures that couples and families get seats together. 

Seems sensible to me.


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## JRR (Dec 20, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> When were the seats assigned? By computer or by the train crew?



The seats were assigned when I made the reservation and bought the tickets.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 20, 2019)

JRR said:


> The seats were assigned when I made the reservation and bought the tickets.


This is what Amtrak needs to do. On really busy lines like the NEC there could also be an unreserved coach for shorts.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 20, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Correct. It depends on the majority of the audience too. On the nec it’s mostly business people and students, lots of solo travelers which means that after they all take up 2 seats, they just start filling in the empty solo seats. In this case, passengers boarding as a couple or family are at a disadvantage. I know this personally, as when traveling with my mom to nyc on the Acela, we were in separate cars until Philadelphia where we could get 2 seats together.
> 
> On the LD trains, the majority is couple and families traveling together. In this case, by assigning seats, this assures that couples and families get seats together.
> 
> Seems sensible to me.


Also on the NEC, most people are only traveling for an hour or two and can live with a "bad" seat on occasion. (And they do reserve seats in the Amfleet 1s for families and groups.) Keeping parents and small children together is perhaps the only critical reason for ensuring availability of group seating. Aside from that, on a short ride, most people seem to be able to live with the chance of being seperated.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 20, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> This is what Amtrak needs to do. On really busy lines like the NEC there could also be an unreserved coach for shorts.


Before the early 2000s all of the NEC trains, except for the Metroliners/Acelas were unreserved. Generally, there were no problems, except during busy holiday seasons, when you might have to stand the whole way (and travel times were a bit longer than they are now.)


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## jis (Dec 20, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> Before the early 2000s all of the NEC trains, except for the Metroliners/Acelas were unreserved. Generally, there were no problems, except during busy holiday seasons, when you might have to stand the whole way (and travel times were a bit longer than they are now.)


Trains had to become all reserved when yield management was introduced across the board, in order to do differential pricing based on demand on specific train dynamically.


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## Qapla (Dec 20, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> This is what Amtrak needs to do. On really busy lines like the NEC there could also be an unreserved coach for shorts.




"But that's not the car/coach I want to ride in!"
"I want to pick my seat and my car/coach when I get on the train"
"I want to reserve a seat on 'that' car/coach - the one without assigned seating"

I'm sure some would have that sentiment ... there is simply no full-proof answer to the seating situation.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 20, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> Before the early 2000s all of the NEC trains, except for the Metroliners/Acelas were unreserved. Generally, there were no problems, except during busy holiday seasons, when you might have to stand the whole way (and travel times were a bit longer than they are now.)


Yup especially on Fridays and Sundays. I remember those days and people sitting on suitcases in the aisles and in the vestibules. I thought there was a safety concern that prompted Amtrak to make a change to insure that everyone had a seat.


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## Benny8444 (Dec 23, 2019)

It would just be easier to get an assigned seat at booking


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2019)

Benny8444 said:


> It would just be easier to get an assigned seat at booking



How is that different from getting assigned seating on the platform? With Acela first class you don’t get to choose your seat correct?


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## MARC Rider (Dec 23, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How is that different from getting assigned seating on the platform? With Acela first class you don’t get to choose your seat correct?


When you make the reservation, they assign you the seat, you can change it immediately afterward if you want. Of course, there may be no desirable seats left and your stuck, but, then, presumably you bought the ticket because you wanted to travel somewhere, not because you wanted to sit in a particular seat.


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## TiBike (Dec 23, 2019)

With airline-style booking, you choose your own seat. The passenger has some measure of control, and it's not happening when the passenger (not to mention Amtrak staff) is stressed out. It's also impersonal – it won't turn into an unpleasant confrontation, which I've seen happen on platforms.


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## crescent-zephyr (Dec 23, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> When you make the reservation, they assign you the seat, you can change it immediately afterward if you want. Of course, there may be no desirable seats left and your stuck, but, then, presumably you bought the ticket because you wanted to travel somewhere, not because you wanted to sit in a particular seat.



Ah ok. I actually chose coach err “business class” on Acela because of the assigned seating in first class... I would rather have a window seat than an aisle seat in FC on Acela and since I couldn’t figure it out I just booked BC. Sadly I was only able to snag a “half window” but such is life. Ha.


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## Qapla (Dec 23, 2019)

TiBike said:


> With airline-style booking, you choose your own seat



A train is not an airplane! 

On most flights all seats are assigned for the duration of the flight - on a train some/many of the seats are only assigned/used for part of the trip before being vacated and available for another person.

If someone gets off early or stays on late that would cause some problems with seats assigned at ticket purchase.

Many on here agree that the current person in charge is an airline person and seems to be trying to turn Amtrak into an airline clone - and most seem to NOT want that ... then they want airline-style booking? 

C'mon Man - you can't have it both ways ... do you want Amtrak t stay a rail line or become an airline clone?


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## MARC Rider (Dec 23, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Ah ok. I actually chose coach err “business class” on Acela because of the assigned seating in first class... I would rather have a window seat than an aisle seat in FC on Acela and since I couldn’t figure it out I just booked BC. Sadly I was only able to snag a “half window” but such is life. Ha.


See, even with totally open seating, sometimes when you show up, the train is so crowded that no good seats are available. Actually, we should feel good about that. It means that lots of people are riding trains and putting a lie to the canard that "nobody rides trains anymore." But it might mean that you can't get the seat you want.

If one is riding the train for the experience of sitting in a particular seat, then one should plan to take their trip during a time of year or time of day when business is slow. If one is riding a train for transportation, it might be necessary to suck it up and take the aisle (or other unfavored) seat. Anyway everybody arrives at the destination at the same time no matter what seat they're in.


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## MARC Rider (Dec 24, 2019)

Qapla said:


> A train is not an airplane!
> 
> On most flights all seats are assigned for the duration of the flight - on a train some/many of the seats are only assigned/used for part of the trip before being vacated and available for another person.
> 
> ...


Foreign railroads have been making seat reservations for years, and Amtrak has been doing it for Acela Express first class for over a year, and things work fine. 

Come to think of it, Amtrak, and all the private railroads before that managed to reserve sleeping car space in a way that accounted for space that's used by different people for different parts of the trip. The private railroads managed to do that before there were computers. With computers, I can't see doing this as being anything but a trivial exercise. If they could do it with for sleepers 100 years ago, surely they can do it for coach today, and this has nothing to do with Amtrak emulating airline procedures.


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## jis (Dec 24, 2019)

Qapla said:


> A train is not an airplane!
> 
> On most flights all seats are assigned for the duration of the flight - on a train some/many of the seats are only assigned/used for part of the trip before being vacated and available for another person.
> 
> ...


Most mysteriously many successfully operating, indeed much more successful than Amtrak, passenger rail outfits around the world. They seem to manage assigned reserved seats just fine, that turn over three or four times en route. It has nothing to do with the false propaganda perpetrated by a few clueless rail fanatics about airline person blah blah blah...

Speaking of getting on late, try that on Amtrak and on occasions see your entire reservation, for not only that trip but for all subsequent legs on that reservation disappear due to no show. Also try convincing an Amtrak Conductor that you ought to be allowed to stay on board beyond Albuquerque when your reservation is upto Albuquerque. That has got to be the most contrived silly argument that I have seen in a while.


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## TiBike (Dec 24, 2019)

Qapla said:


> A train is not an airplane!...
> 
> C'mon Man - you can't have it both ways ... do you want Amtrak t stay a rail line or become an airline clone?



You must be thinking of someone else. Amtrak should run more like an airline – safe, conveniently scheduled, on time, clean transportation, serving dense corridors where a train's carrying capacity gives it a competitive advantage over buses and its in-town stations give it an advantage over airlines.

Jis hit it on the head. Pre-reserved seats on trains is common practice around the world. So is "get on the train, pick a seat and take responsibility for getting off when you should". Some systems have both on the same train – pay extra for a pre-reserved seat, or take your chances in an unreserved car.

Both models are familiar to passengers in the U.S. and are accepted as normal practice. What's not familiar or normal is to show up without a seat reservation expecting to choose your own seat, and then be spoken to and chivvied about like a six year old.


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## AFS1970 (Dec 24, 2019)

I can't say that I have adapted to the reserved movie seats all that well, but I am learning. As for Amtrak, I took my first Acela ride in 2019 and the conductor saw my wife and I looking for seats and put us into two seats together. My wife hated them, I didn't mind, but they were not as comfortable as I had been lead to believe. I would have liked a chance to try my luck for a different set, as we were at the seats by a table that were back to back with the next row so did not recline. That being said I have had similar conductors who will find a seat for you in regular NEC coach but that seems more rare.

I think a computer could easily be set up to deal with people getting on and off at different stops. As a matter of fact it could be set up to group people by car who were getting off at a given stop, this making door coverage easier. It could also be set up to spread them out to reduce exit crowding. That part of the equation seems to be the simplest. I think the biggest problem would be getting the passenger to stand at the right platform space to enter the correct car.


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## Bex (Dec 24, 2019)

I think people are more OK with assigned seating in advance but less when done by the conductor. You can choose when doing it online (I just booked a NER BC seat for April and immediately changed what I was assigned, eg) whereas the conductor does it with whatever his internal logic is. People just want some control and another human telling you to sit someplace because he/she said so upsets people, even if Amtrak has its reasons. Plus knowing what you're getting in advance cuts down the stress on travel day.


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## Michigan Mom (Dec 27, 2019)

With VIA I seem to recall that the assignments are automatic on booking however you can call an agent and they will switch the assignments on request depending on availability. I find this infinitely preferable to unreserved coach. If Amtrak were to incorporate this feature presumably people who didn't want advance seat assignments could bypass the option while booking which is, yes, the airline model.
Amtrak markets to groups and families, so there is an expectation when booking of getting seats together. I think this becomes more important for longer coach trips, say 3-8 hours and beyond. If it's a shorter trip or a regular commute the seating isn't as important. A vacation trip with family members or friends, no question of wanting to spend time with them, and if there are little ones it's a necessity. Most conductors, at least on the Wolverine, keep a four seater here and there for groups of 3-4. I did once observe two 4-seaters each occupied by a single person although that didn't last. I feel bad for the conductor in that situation, they were probably thinking Do I want to be complained about by the family that can't sit together or the single people who have to move... Being able to reserve seats at bookings would solve many problems.


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## jiml (Dec 28, 2019)

Unless you like rear-facing seats, you pretty much have to call VIA for most corridor bookings. They're working towards a "Euro-style" fixed seating configuration on those trains, so no longer physically rotate the seats to direction-of-travel. When booking online the rear-facing are always filled first and there are a few other idiosyncrasies that sometimes split couples or families travelling together. It's usually no problem to sort out with a human being, although as with any customer service there will be exceptions requiring a second call.


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## como (Dec 28, 2019)

MARC Rider said:


> Foreign railroads have been making seat reservations for years, and Amtrak has been doing it for Acela Express first class for over a year, and things work fine.
> 
> Come to think of it, Amtrak, and all the private railroads before that managed to reserve sleeping car space in a way that accounted for space that's used by different people for different parts of the trip. The private railroads managed to do that before there were computers. With computers, I can't see doing this as being anything but a trivial exercise. If they could do it with for sleepers 100 years ago, surely they can do it for coach today, and this has nothing to do with Amtrak emulating airline procedures.


I'm old enough to remember several family trips between Denver and Chicago on the Denver Zephyr with coach tickets with reserved seats. Our tickets would include a car number and seat number. My wife and I were in coach last night from Ottumwa to Denver. There was a crew change in Ottumwa and the conductor scanned tickets inside the station. What was interesting was that the conductor had written out slips with the names of the passengers, the destination and number of seats and was handing out the slips after scanning the tickets. He gave everyone a slip with that information and told us which car to board. The coach attendant seemed to have similar information. All the information needed to assign seats at the time they are purchased seems readily available.


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## cocojacoby (Dec 29, 2019)

jiml said:


> Unless you like rear-facing seats, you pretty much have to call VIA for most corridor bookings. They're working towards a "Euro-style" fixed seating configuration on those trains, so no longer physically rotate the seats to direction-of-travel. When booking online the rear-facing are always filled first and there are a few other idiosyncrasies that sometimes split couples or families travelling together. It's usually no problem to sort out with a human being, although as with any customer service there will be exceptions requiring a second call.


Absolutely hate this rear facing seat trend.


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## Palmland (Jan 31, 2020)

I am riding train 90 today to RVR. Since this is technically an LD train I wanted to see if the seating procedure is different than in the past. It was, in a couple ways.

In the past passengers boarding at Florence waited in the station for the train to arrive. The conductor then came to the station where he then scanned tickets. You were then told to go trainside and wait for your seat assignment. After waiting there you were handed a slip of paper with your seat assignment.

Today, one of the station agents lined us up before the train arrived. As it was arriving, he led us to the platform and instructed us which direction to go to board for business or coach. About 25 were boarding. This particular agent had been a bit of a curmudgeon in the past but has apparently gone to charm school. Couldn’t have been more friendly with all the passengers.

When I got to my coach there was no delay boarding and the attendant helped those with bags. It was open seating except for those designated for 2 together or for disabled.The Amfleet II coach was clean and refurbished. The seat outlet did not work but the very pleasant and efficient attendant got the conductor to locate the seat where the circuit breaker was located. He moved it enough to get access and got it to work (all seats on my side had been without power).

Big improvement. We did leave 6 minutes late due to boarding a disabled passenger.

However, I later talked with the conductor about it and he said sometimes, if the train will be crowded, he will still give assignments so he can insure parties of two or more can stay together. That tells me the only way consistency can be achieved and help eliminate boarding delays would be if the passenger selects his own seat assignment when booking on line.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 31, 2020)

I haven’t seen the refurbished amfleet II’s yet, they look pretty nice. The spot of color adds a lot compared to the all gray on the Amfleet I. 

Thanks for the report, good to know how things are going.


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