# Bringing back Penn Station?



## danasgoodstuff (Jul 5, 2021)

I just saw a couple of articles online about this, is this real or someone's idea of a joke? Surely the cost cost moving/demolishing Madison Square Garden and then rebuilding anything vaguely resembling the old station would be prohibitive.


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## Cal (Jul 5, 2021)

Some people might be trying to bring back Penn Station, but they will not succeed.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jul 5, 2021)

This is definitely not happening considering Moynihan Train Hall is already built, and more than sufficient for intercity rail.

Now that Penn station has improved, transit money would be much better spent on improving train travel in the general area.


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## PVD (Jul 5, 2021)

No plan that has any chance of actually occurring is going to relocate MSG to build a replica of an obsolete (but beloved by many for nostalgia) building. Certain plans to rebuild a modern and practical station due involve removing the MSG Theater, and using that space. Since MSG now owns both the beacon Theatre and Radio City Music Hall, their need for a medium sized venue for shows that are large, but not large enough for a full arena are diminished. Certainly possible to see them "trade" the theater for an extension of the operating permit for MSG itself.


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## jis (Jul 5, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> This is definitely not happening considering Moynihan Train Hall is already built, and more than sufficient for intercity rail.
> 
> Now that Penn station has improved, transit money would be much better spent on improving train travel in the general area.


Nobody that is serious and not just being vaguely and impractically nostalgic proposes to recreate the old Penn Station.

Substantial parts of the old Penn Station are slated for a rebuild and significant modification. One specific change that is gaining traction is to take over the road that exists between the Penn Plaza building and Madison Square Garden, which since 9/11 remains unused, and replacing that entire space with an open high ceilinged concourse adjacent to what is known as the Rotunda on the Amtrak side. MTA is leading the charge on that with collaboration from both NJT and Amtrak.









Penn Station Reconstruction


A commuter-first plan to transform Penn Station into a first-class transit hub that better serves passengers with more space, new retail and amenities, and improved accessibility options.




new.mta.info





It will most likely be a typical PPP funded thing. Neither Moynihan nor this proposed project has or will use significant money that could otherwise have been spent on some other transit project, since quite a bit of it is collateralized with earnings from those structures, including leases paid by Amtrak for using the facility.


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## west point (Jul 5, 2021)

Penn station needs modification to serve NJ Transit and LIRR. It is not really functional due to number of passengers. To make it so MSG needs removal IMO. That way flow from the various subways and bus lines can be quicker. The extra space is especially needed for the occasional major delays and passenger overloads.

Any idea when the lease expires on MSG ? Nothing can be really be planned until about 2 years before end of lease ?


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## jis (Jul 5, 2021)

west point said:


> Penn station needs modification to serve NJ Transit and LIRR. It is not really functional due to number of passengers. To make it so MSG needs removal IMO. That way flow from the various subways and bus lines can be quicker. The extra space is especially needed for the occasional major delays and passenger overloads.
> 
> Any idea when the lease expires on MSG ? Nothing can be really be planned until about 2 years before end of lease ?


The beauty of the Central Passage Plan is that it meshes nicely into whatever is eventually built after MSG is removed. It need not wait for that to happen immediately.


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## PVD (Jul 5, 2021)

I don't believe there is an expiring lease, the right to build there was purchased by the Garden owners from Penn Central What is in play, is the special permit to operate the arena issued by NYC which has 2 more years remaining. You can make Penn much better without moving the Garden. It's not like there is a shortage of office space on the market, and there are lots of plans to add more in the area that affect the economics of potential projects.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 5, 2021)

Thanks, I figured you guys would be on top of the situation. Here's what I've found, 37416 (mta.info), the official Master Plan.


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## PVD (Jul 5, 2021)

A huge TBD is whether they go with the single or two level...Some of the LIRR area work is already underway, and will take place no matter what...


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## jis (Jul 5, 2021)

PVD said:


> A huge TBD is whether they go with the single or two level...Some of the LIRR area work is already underway, and will take place no matter what...


I hope they go with single level. The two level still looks pretty cramped with low ceilings. The single level alternative to me looks almost spectacular.

Anyway, I cast my vote for single level in the customer survey that they did a while back.


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## railiner (Jul 5, 2021)

danasgoodstuff said:


> Thanks, I figured you guys would be on top of the situation. Here's what I've found, 37416 (mta.info), the official Master Plan.


What's with this 'obsession' to attempt to rename Pennsylvania Station? They have Moynihan Train Hall plastered all over the new addition on the west end, and now they have prominent "Empire" all over the proposed remodeling of the central and east end. I guess the name 'Pennsylvania' digs at the New York pols.....
But to New Yorker's, it was and always will be, known as 'Penn Station'.....


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## jis (Jul 5, 2021)

railiner said:


> What's with this 'obsession' to attempt to rename Pennsylvania Station? They have Moynihan Train Hall plastered all over the new addition on the west end, and now they have prominent "Empire" all over the proposed remodeling of the central and east end. I guess the name 'Pennsylvania' digs at the New York pols.....
> But to New Yorker's, it was and always will be, known as 'Penn Station'.....


Hey! It is just "Empire Penn Station". At least it is not "Cuomo Penn Station" or some such 


PVD said:


> A huge TBD is whether they go with the single or two level...Some of the LIRR area work is already underway, and will take place no matter what...


The LIRR North Corridor is being built as single level anyway. just like it is now.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jul 6, 2021)

jis said:


> Nobody that is serious and not just being vaguely and impractically nostalgic proposes to recreate the old Penn Station.
> 
> Substantial parts of the old Penn Station are slated for a rebuild and significant modification. One specific change that is gaining traction is to take over the road that exists between the Penn Plaza building and Madison Square Garden, which since 9/11 remains unused, and replacing that entire space with an open high ceilinged concourse adjacent to what is known as the Rotunda on the Amtrak side. MTA is leading the charge on that with collaboration from both NJT and Amtrak.
> 
> ...


I've been following this project for some time. 
I guess I thought the OP was referring to a full version of the previous Penn station.


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## Brian Battuello (Jul 6, 2021)

jis said:


> "Cuomo Penn Station"



Named after Uncle Louis Cuomo, no doubt. Not after anyone currently in office...


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 6, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> I've been following this project for some time.
> I guess I thought the OP was referring to a full version of the previous Penn station.


I was, because I had found articles online that read that way. But on closer inspection, they were either inadvertently unrealistic or purposefully clickbait. But it sounds like what is happening is good news. It's not going to be 1950 again, there are no do overs in life or railroading. Making the best of what is and can be requires realizing that you can't go back.


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## jis (Jul 6, 2021)

danasgoodstuff said:


> I was, because I had found articles online that read that way. But on closer inspection, they were either inadvertently unrealistic or purposefully clickbait. But it sounds like what is happening is good news. It's not going to be 1950 again, there are no do overs in life or railroading. Making the best of what is and can be requires realizing that you can't go back.


Exactly! That is why I was trying to point out the good that is likely to come out of what is happening, if we can ignore the nostalgia for the moment. I think the future looks quite bright finally.


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## Brian Battuello (Jul 6, 2021)

That Amtrak reached 50 years is a miracle.


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2021)

It is a subway and commuter rail station now, but is still an enormously important (and busiest) Amtrak station.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jul 12, 2021)

PVD said:


> It is a subway and commuter rail station now, but is still an enormously important (and busiest) Amtrak station.



As with pretty much every major train station in America. While intercity rail travel is down, I’d be curious to know how commuter rail traffic compares to 70 years ago. Boston commuter trains (pre-pandemic) were extremely well patronized.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 12, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> As with pretty much every major train station in America. While intercity rail travel is down, I’d be curious to know how commuter rail traffic compares to 70 years ago. Boston commuter trains (pre-pandemic) were extremely well patronized.


I think interurban and commuter rail, i.e. everything shorter than between cities/municipalities/population zones, are where the growth has been, especially more recently. Moreover, I think the demographics have shifted so much since 1950 that I don't think that 'cities' and 'commuter rail' are really the most relevent concepts anymore.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jul 12, 2021)

danasgoodstuff said:


> I think interurban and commuter rail, i.e. everything shorter than between cities/municipalities/population zones, are where the growth has been, especially more recently. Moreover, I think the demographics have shifted so much since 1950 that I don't think that 'cities' and 'commuter rail' are really the most relevent concepts anymore.



agreed!
MBTA has been scrambling to implement regional rail (a European approach) with hourly or more service on all lines.

If they can manage to procure EMU’s (they’ve been looking at Stadler’s Caltrain units), they will really transform what it means to travel by train in this country.

I feel like Penn station and surrounding lines are already implementing such service.


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## danasgoodstuff (Jul 12, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> agreed!
> MBTA has been scrambling to implement regional rail (a European approach) with hourly or more service on all lines.
> 
> If they can manage to procure EMU’s (they’ve been looking at Stadler’s Caltrain units), they will really transform what it means to travel by train in this country.
> ...


Yes, and what I meant to add, is that 'regional rail' is something that is reshaping not only places that have always been passenger rail centers like the NEC, but also places that haven't like parts of California and the Provo to Ogden corridor, and potentially many more places where road congestion is a relatively recent but very real thing.


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