# Maple Leaf border procedure



## NorthCoastHiawatha (Mar 17, 2011)

Next week im traveling from Bellingham to Vancouver and then taking the Canadian to Toronto. I decided to take the Maple Leaf to Buffalo and fly back from there because it ends up saving me 200 over a direct flight. Anyway, as I have never taken the Maple Leaf before, what is the border procedure (I know its not as simple as the Cascades). I have heard that you detrain and go through customs in the station?


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## JeffW (Mar 17, 2011)

Others may speak to this better than I, since it's been a few years since I've crossed at Niagara...

As of a few years ago, Border Patrol walk through the train to process the crossing passengers. They were still pretty meticulous, but we didn't need to get off for any inspections or customs.

The unusual part was that I did need to call to get tickets instead of getting them online, probably because they needed the passport information.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 17, 2011)

I read on here that now they are making everyone get off the train and stand in a small crowed area on the platform after inspection.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Mar 17, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> I read on here that now they are making everyone get off the train and stand in a small crowed area on the platform after inspection.


Oh joy, sounds like fun


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## amamba (Mar 17, 2011)

I remember reading the same thing as amtrakwolverine. Maybe do a search and see if you can pull up the thread b


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## railiner (Mar 17, 2011)

What a shame crossing the border is getting so full of hastle. Almost like airport security, but thankfully, not quite as bad. Yet.

I remember the good old days when you could ride the train from Buffalo through Ontario to Detroit, and not even need to show ID.


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## AlanB (Mar 18, 2011)

A few people reported that Canadian customs had started taking people off the train at Niagara Falls, Ontario when crossing into Canada. It currently unconfirmed if this is the norm or the exception. Although the CBSA has made it clear that they much prefer and want to find ways to take everyone off the train for customs. That's one reason that Amtrak is looking at changing the terminus of the Adirondack in Montreal to a different station.

All that said, NorthCoast is coming back to America. SOP for US customs is to do customs on the train and typically only taking those who must pay entrance fees, duty fees, or have questions raised about their documents or intents into the special facilities setup in Niagara Falls, NY. On rare occasions they have emptied the train if they had some intel that indicated a possible issue, but again that isn't the norm.

When I came back last July, after riding the Canadian, I was cleared while sitting in my BC seat as was my mom and most everyone else on the train. Maybe 15 to 20 people were taken off and brought into the facility.


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## NorthCoastHiawatha (Mar 18, 2011)

Oh ok, that doesn't sound to bad, sounds somewhat similar to what i'm used to on the Cascades.


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## AlanB (Mar 18, 2011)

Well the Cascades sees you doing part of the Customs work in the station in Vancouver and then the other part just after crossing the US border.

In the case of the Maple Leaf everything gets done once you cross the border, since the train isn't sealed from Toronto to the border. In fact the train makes multiple stops and actually runs as a VIA Rail train to enhance their service.


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## jis (Mar 18, 2011)

AlanB said:


> Well the Cascades sees you doing part of the Customs work in the station in Vancouver and then the other part just after crossing the US border.
> 
> In the case of the Maple Leaf everything gets done once you cross the border, since the train isn't sealed from Toronto to the border. In fact the train makes multiple stops and actually runs as a VIA Rail train to enhance their service.


That's true on the Adirondack too, since it stops at St. Lambert in Canada.


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## rrdude (Mar 18, 2011)

Traveled a year ago on both Maple Leaf, NB, and Adirondack, SB.

On ML, once we crossed the bridge into Canada, we sat on the train, Canadian agents came on, they took a few people off, but the bulk (think the PAX load was about 65) stayed on.

On the Adirondack, once we crossed the boarder, and got near the inspection station, US Customs came on, and did the very same thing, only taking a few off. It was faster going south.

In both instances, they made it clear that *once the customs officials boarded the train, you were NOT TO MOVE OUT OF YOUR SEAT, even to use the bathroom, *until you were told it was OK........And that is after ALL the agents detrain.


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## zephyr17 (Mar 18, 2011)

rrdude said:


> In both instances, they made it clear that *once the customs officials boarded the train, you were NOT TO MOVE OUT OF YOUR SEAT, even to use the bathroom, *until you were told it was OK........And that is after ALL the agents detrain.


Just an FYI, the same rule about staying in your seats is in force on the US Customs inspection at Blaine, WA on the southbound Cascades trains, too.


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## AlanB (Mar 18, 2011)

Yeah, I always laugh at the bathroom thing though, since that's something that they cannot deny you the use of. As I learned several years ago when I had troubles getting into Canada, the only rights you have are those granted by the Geneva Convention, until you are cleared. One of the rights under the Geneva Convention is the right to use the facilities.

I don't think that it explicitly states that, but there are certain humane rights that you're granted, and those rights by default would include allowing for the use of the facilities.

That said, I generally try to go shortly before reaching the border just because it's better to avoid confrontations. But I have gotten up to go to the bathroom while customs was still on board a train once they went through my car.


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## jis (Mar 18, 2011)

zephyr17 said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > In both instances, they made it clear that *once the customs officials boarded the train, you were NOT TO MOVE OUT OF YOUR SEAT, even to use the bathroom, *until you were told it was OK........And that is after ALL the agents detrain.
> ...


Blaine is effectively a Customs Form collection stop AFAICT. The process being analogous to what they do at the exit from the CBP checkpoint at airports. A very occasional person may be picked up for further inspection but mostly it is collection of the forms. The last time I passed by there they didn't even talk to me and hardly even looked towards me, just picked up the form and were on their way.



AlanB said:


> I don't think that it explicitly states that, but there are certain humane rights that you're granted, and those rights by default would include allowing for the use of the facilities.
> 
> That said, I generally try to go shortly before reaching the border just because it's better to avoid confrontations. But I have gotten up to go to the bathroom while customs was still on board a train once they went through my car.


Usually, once they have done the sweep through the car, they don't really care to be too strict about the "stay in your seat" bit. It is more headache to enforce that than it is worth I suppose.


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## Anderson (Mar 18, 2011)

jis said:


> zephyr17 said:
> 
> 
> > rrdude said:
> ...


Barring a security issue, I think it's probably a lawsuit waiting to happen when that _one_ person had to use the restroom...


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## fairviewroad (Mar 18, 2011)

jis said:


> Blaine is effectively a Customs Form collection stop AFAICT. The process being analogous to what they do at the exit from the CBP checkpoint at airports. A very occasional person may be picked up for further inspection but mostly it is collection of the forms. The last time I passed by there they didn't even talk to me and hardly even looked towards me, just picked up the form and were on their way.


So why can't this happen at the station in VAC? If you can pre-clear both immigration AND customs at many Canadian airports, why can't you do

this on the Cascades trains? After all, isn't the train "sealed" once it leaves VAC?


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## jis (Mar 18, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Blaine is effectively a Customs Form collection stop AFAICT. The process being analogous to what they do at the exit from the CBP checkpoint at airports. A very occasional person may be picked up for further inspection but mostly it is collection of the forms. The last time I passed by there they didn't even talk to me and hardly even looked towards me, just picked up the form and were on their way.
> ...


If you want an answer from the horse's mouth, in a manner of speaking, I suggest that you go to the FAQ page associated with the CBP Home Page and pose the question there and see if they answer.  Try the Ask a Question page.


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## dart330 (Mar 18, 2011)

The train is not sealed after it leaves VAC. When we took it in June, the train stopped shortly after leaving the station and someone jumped off to manually throw a switch. Then when we came to a river crossing, the train had to stop again to wait for a ship to pass and the the bridge to be put back into place before we could cross.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 18, 2011)

fairviewroad said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Blaine is effectively a Customs Form collection stop AFAICT. The process being analogous to what they do at the exit from the CBP checkpoint at airports. A very occasional person may be picked up for further inspection but mostly it is collection of the forms. The last time I passed by there they didn't even talk to me and hardly even looked towards me, just picked up the form and were on their way.
> ...


The reason is that the train between VAC and the border is not considered sealed and secured from a customs standpoint. The Blaine stop is a secondary stop to spot check that nothing has been brought on board after departure from VAC.

A good description of Amtrak's pre-clearance program at Vancouver (prepared as a plan to expand the program) is HERE (PDF).


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## railiner (Mar 18, 2011)

jis said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Well the Cascades sees you doing part of the Customs work in the station in Vancouver and then the other part just after crossing the US border.
> ...


The Adirondack is not like the Maple Leaf. It is Amtrak all the way. ViaRail is not involved at all other than station services in Canada. The Adirondack will not handle any traffic solely between Montreal and St. Lambert. Only international traffic at St. Lambert.

I believe the Amtrak train between Seattle and Vancouver years ago stopped at New Westminster, BC with the same traffic restriction.


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## Eric S (Mar 18, 2011)

railiner said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


I think the point about the _Cascades_ being cleared in Vancouver and the _Adirondack_ not being cleared in Montreal because of the stop in St. Lambert, QC, is that passengers boarding/detraining in St. Lambert would not have been seen by CBP if all screening took place in Montreal. If, however, the St. Lambert stop were eliminated and space found at Montreal (in Central Station or if service were switched to the Windsor Station replacement), perhaps the _Adirondack_ could operate across the border like the _Cascades_.


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## alanh (Mar 19, 2011)

Of course, right now the procedure for the Cascades is to get off the bus at the border, collect your luggage, and go into the customs office for clearance. :angry: At least until the rain stops.


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## train person (Mar 19, 2011)

If you are heading north from Seattle to Vancouver on the train is there any immigration/passport check by USA border people at all?


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## jis (Mar 19, 2011)

Eric S said:


> If, however, the St. Lambert stop were eliminated and space found at Montreal (in Central Station or if service were switched to the Windsor Station replacement), perhaps the _Adirondack_ could operate across the border like the _Cascades_.


BTW, there is no Windsor Station anymore. What remains is a block or two to the west and is called Lucien L'Allier.


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## AlanB (Mar 19, 2011)

train person said:


> If you are heading north from Seattle to Vancouver on the train is there any immigration/passport check by USA border people at all?


No, US border patrol doesn't care who's leaving the country. They only care who is entering the US.

On the other hand when you board the train in Seattle, Amtrak personel will ask to see your passport just to ensure that you have the correct paperwork to enter Canada. If they deliver someone to Canada without the correct paperwork, Amtrak gets the bill from Canada for bringing that person back over the border to the US.


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## railiner (Mar 19, 2011)

Years ago, I recall seeing a small office in Grand Central Terminal, New York, at the entrance to track 34 that said "U.S. Customs. Does anyone recall that, and what use it had?


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## AlanB (Mar 19, 2011)

I can't say with any certainty, but years ago trains like the Adirondack would have run to GCT, since they could not get to Penn back then. So perhaps they kept a small office at GCT because of that.


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## NS VIA Fan (Mar 19, 2011)

railiner said:


> Years ago, I recall seeing a small office in Grand Central Terminal, New York, at the entrance to track 34 that said "U.S. Customs. Does anyone recall that, and what use it had?


When the trains handled checked baggage, customs and immigration interviewed you at the border but you had to go to this office to claim your checked baggage upon arrival. There were similar offices in Montreal Central and Winsor Stations so I imagine it was the same at GCT and Penn Station.


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## railiner (Mar 19, 2011)

NS VIA Fan said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> > Years ago, I recall seeing a small office in Grand Central Terminal, New York, at the entrance to track 34 that said "U.S. Customs. Does anyone recall that, and what use it had?
> ...


Okay, that makes sense.

I suppose you could have paid any excess duties right on the spot...


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## railiner (Mar 19, 2011)

AlanB said:


> I can't say with any certainty, but years ago trains like the Adirondack would have run to GCT, since they could not get to Penn back then. So perhaps they kept a small office at GCT because of that.


This was back before Amtrak, in the New York Central days. The Laurentian, the Montreal Limited, as well as Toronto, and several trains that came from Detroit thru Canada used GCT.


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## Eric S (Mar 19, 2011)

jis said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > If, however, the St. Lambert stop were eliminated and space found at Montreal (in Central Station or if service were switched to the Windsor Station replacement), perhaps the _Adirondack_ could operate across the border like the _Cascades_.
> ...


Thanks. I couldn't remember what its replacement was called. Also, I'm not so good with the French anyway.


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## GPSTraveler (Mar 20, 2011)

Hello all,

I just got off the Maple Leaf last month. I took the LSL from Cleveland to Rochester, then switched to the Maple Leaf onto Niagara Falls, Ontario.

The Maple Leaf was over 2 hours late on the way north to Toronto. I beleive that Customs will not wait more than 2 hours to board the train. Therefore, instead of customs boarding the train, the train stopped at the Niagara Falls Ontario station and stopped. We still had the normal 1 hour stop AFTER Niagara Falls, NY. After waiting 1 hour on the New York side, and then an additional half hour on the Ontario side. I thought we had been forgotten so I poked my head out of the door and saw a Canadian customs agent, who told me they were taking us off the train (because we were 2 hours late). A couple of agents came aboard and directed everyone to exit the train near the front, luggage and all. We then entered the customs facility on the side of the niagara falls, ON station. Everyone waited in a line (with all their luggage in tow), got passports stamped and then Niagara passengers were escorted to the exit of the staiton, onward Toronto passengers were shown right back on the train, luggage and all.

On the return trip, the Maple Leaf was right on time. Therefore, we backed into the Niagara Falls New York station and waited on the tracks for about 45 minutes. The agents were crowded at a couple of tables in the rear lounge/ business class car, while the passengers remained seated (in silence - a very silent time, only lights remain on). Then 3 agents entered our car from the front and not the back, most agents were behind in the cafe car.

Everyone was quickly and politely questioned and had passports stamped. MUCH quicker than in an airport by the way. My mother in law was absolutely delighted with the Amtrak/Via rail procedure VS an international airport. She understood that 90% of the time, when train is UNDER 2 hours late, we would have had the same quick procedure coming North, meaning..... Train backs into NF Ontario, then 45min later, agents come aboard and ask questions, stamp passports. Keep in mind, even though the wait is 1 hour, you are not standing in a line at the airport.

Only 1 couple were escorted off the train with luggage. If the agents are happy with your answers (95% of time) you will not have to show any luggage at all.

I hope this information is helpful. I had to assume the agents only take you off the train if it is 2 hours late, because I asked 2 different customs agents to make sure, this was NOT a normal procedure. It all has to do with how long they are willing to wait to board the train, thats it.


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## jis (Mar 20, 2011)

GPSTraveler said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I just got off the Maple Leaf last month. I took the LSL from Cleveland to Rochester, then switched to the Maple Leaf onto Niagara Falls, Ontario.
> 
> ...


You do realize of course that you are talking about two completely different jurisdictions with completely different set of rules. Just because Canadians (CBC)think they should pull everyone off the train under certain circumstances does not mean that US CBP will follow the same rules. While entering Canada going North you primarily dealt with Canadian CBC in Niagara Falls ON, and while entering US going South you dealt with US CBP in Niagara Falls NY. Also BTW there is no backing up at Niagara Falls ON. There is only one usable track at the station I believe. At Niagara Falls NY they built this special customs station with a platform that the train needs to back into. Again different jurisdictions and different procedures.

Also, at least for those that are on the US GOES trusted traveler program, nothing on the land borders could be easier than at the airports equipped with GOES machines where you don't need to talk to a human agent at all. Just authenticate yourself with Passport and finger print and make a digital customs declaration and off you go.


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## OBS (Nov 5, 2015)

Does anyone know the current procedure with Canadian customs at NFL? Are passengers required to detrain with their luggage?


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## Bob Dylan (Nov 5, 2015)

OBS said:


> Does anyone know the current procedure with Canadian customs at NFL? Are passengers required to detrain with their luggage?


Yep, you'll take it into the VIA Station for processing while the Amtrak Crew is replaced with a VIA Crew for the run to Toronto.

Upon return, the Crew Change is reversed @ the VIA Station, the train crosses the Border to the Amtrak Station on the US Side, and you take your luggage info the Station for processing by American HLS.


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## jis (Nov 5, 2015)

American HLS? What be they? CBP perhaps?


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## neroden (Nov 5, 2015)

jis said:


> Also, at least for those that are on the US GOES trusted traveler program, nothing on the land borders could be easier than at the airports equipped with GOES machines where you don't need to talk to a human agent at all. Just authenticate yourself with Passport and finger print and make a digital customs declaration and off you go.


Wow, so we have no serious border controls at all. "Foreign terrorists welcome!"

It's really straightforward to forge everything electronic in a passport *and* to forge fingerprints for fingerprint readers. I've read about this and seen documentaries.

Why are we wasting money on all this "security" stuff which doesn't even work? So the contractors can feed at the trough, I suppose? Oink oink! Taxpayer dollars are tasty, especially when nothing useful is done with them!


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## OBS (Nov 5, 2015)

Thanks for the update!


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## jis (Nov 5, 2015)

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Also, at least for those that are on the US GOES trusted traveler program, nothing on the land borders could be easier than at the airports equipped with GOES machines where you don't need to talk to a human agent at all. Just authenticate yourself with Passport and finger print and make a digital customs declaration and off you go.
> ...


You should join DHS and help them understand such simple matters. maybe they'll fix it


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## priller (Nov 5, 2015)

jis said:


> Also, at least for those that are on the US GOES trusted traveler program, nothing on the land borders could be easier than at the airports equipped with GOES machines where you don't need to talk to a human agent at all. Just authenticate yourself with Passport and finger print and make a digital customs declaration and off you go.


Also add the facial recognition technology, at the kiosk, to the fingerprints and passport scan. Of course there is the background check and in-person interview with CBP, before you are accepted into the program.

Which actually makes it better security than "Joe Traveller" walking up to CBP agent at the desk.


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## neroden (Nov 5, 2015)

priller said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Also, at least for those that are on the US GOES trusted traveler program, nothing on the land borders could be easier than at the airports equipped with GOES machines where you don't need to talk to a human agent at all. Just authenticate yourself with Passport and finger print and make a digital customs declaration and off you go.
> ...


You should know that this tech can actually be fooled by *photographs*. You need a human babysitting the machine in order to have any real security, and the human has to have enough to do that they don't start covertly reading a novel. The impression JIS gave is that they don't have one.


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## neroden (Nov 5, 2015)

jis said:


> You should join DHS and help them understand such simple matters. maybe they'll fix it


I see no evidence that DHS has ever been *intended* to provide any actual security. All the people who actually knew something about security and tried to do something about it found themselves pressured to resign. I think DHS knows exactly what they're doing: collecting money and trying to look impressive/intimidating. It's an old game.


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## Everydaymatters (Nov 6, 2015)

In reading the above about the Maple Leaf Niagara Falls border crossing, it seems they change their procedure occasionally. When I crossed last Friday the train backed into the station, the rear door was opened, US Border agents boarded and went to the front of the train. Everyone got off the train, starting with the passengers in the front. We did not take our luggage.

At the platform the agent asked us how many were in our party and he wrote that number on our Declaration sheet. We then went into the building and gave our sheet to one of the 3 agents. After answering questions, that agent stamped our Declaration sheet, which we gave to the agent on the platform as we again boarded the train.

One man was escorted off the train with his luggage.


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