# Lakeshore Limited Review



## Gingee (Aug 12, 2008)

Just got off the Lakeshore Limited yesterday. Took it from Chicago to NYC.

When we left Chicago, they first called for the handicapped people, then the seniors, then the people with children ten and under, then finally us. We got the last car with weak air conditioning and no outlets. The food was better going to NYC.

Coming back it was basically anyone who did not have a sleeper could get on. We got in a car (last one like last time) with outlets and air conditioning so that was better. They did run out of food very early on. Not sure why.

I should mention that we took coach both ways. Asked for sleeper availability but they never came back and told us.

We can understand why they switched engines going from Chicago to NYC but why did they switch engines in New York (Albany) when we had only been on the train for one hour?

Also in Erie Pennsylvannia the immigration people came on the train and questioned the people behind us. They were a young couple from Poland. Supposedly students. They didn't have their visas. Supposedly they said that where they go to school, it wasn't that important. Anyway, they took them off the train with their luggage. The big guy told them that they could get thirty days in jail, $5000 charge and/or sent back home. Now on the way back (different location) these guys came on again but basically just walked through the car. Has this happened to anyone else?


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## WhoozOn1st (Aug 12, 2008)

Gingee said:


> We can understand why they switched engines going from Chicago to NYC but why did they switch engines in New York (Albany) when we had only been on the train for one hour?


If memory serves, the units operating on the LSL out of NYP are dual-mode - electric and diesel electric - and are taken off at Albany for replacement by straight diesel electrics. You can spot the dual-mode units by their third rail pickup shoes. Again, this is from memory, and I could be wrong.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Aug 12, 2008)

Gingee said:


> We can understand why they switched engines going from Chicago to NYC but why did they switch engines in New York (Albany) when we had only been on the train for one hour?


The engine used between Albany and New York City is dual mode: it has a diesel prime mover, but it can also operate off of third rail power. Third rail power is needed in the tunnels in New York City where operating diesels (except in emergencies) is not allowed.

Between Albany and Chicago, a regular diesel locomotive (actually, two, I think) is used.

Amtrak has a finite number of dual mode locomotives, and with the current inventory, they can't run the dual mode locomotives all the way to Chicago because they don't t have enough. But the dual mode locomotives also are somewhat lower horsepower, probably so that the extra equipment for third rail operation can be accomodated within the weight limit.


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## Konrad (Aug 12, 2008)

Gingee said:


> Just got off the Lakeshore Limited yesterday. Took it from Chicago to NYC.
> When we left Chicago, they first called for the handicapped people, then the seniors, then the people with children ten and under, then finally us. We got the last car with weak air conditioning and no outlets. The food was better going to NYC.
> 
> Coming back it was basically anyone who did not have a sleeper could get on. We got in a car (last one like last time) with outlets and air conditioning so that was better. They did run out of food very early on. Not sure why.
> ...


I would assume the engine change at Albany would be due to the end of the cantenary - they use electric locomotives out of New York and diesels beyond Albany.

Not that I've taken this route but I do know that there is no overhead power in Chicago and the have to use electrics in the New York tunnels. Locomotive change used to take place at Harmon in the 'olden days'.


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## Joel N. Weber II (Aug 12, 2008)

Konrad said:


> I would assume the engine change at Albany would be due to the end of the cantenary - they use electric locomotives out of New York and diesels beyond Albany.


The Lake Shore Limited does not use catenary power at all. And the electrification doesn't come anywhere close to reaching Albany.


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## WhoozOn1st (Aug 13, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > I would assume the engine change at Albany would be due to the end of the cantenary - they use electric locomotives out of New York and diesels beyond Albany.
> ...


That's what I thought. All third rail, electrification doesn't go that far, and Albany is just the first convenient engine changeout point.


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## WhoozOn1st (Aug 13, 2008)

Engine Change At Albany

Second pic is the best.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Aug 13, 2008)

The change was originally made at Harmon, from the late 1800's. The whole point was to keep steam engines (and , later, pure diesel engines) from overwhelming steaming up and smoking up the tunnels under New York City. It was an early attempt to stave off pollution, well before that became "fashionable".

Even the fabled, almost non-stop 20th Century Limited had to stop at Harmon to have the engines changed. The electric engines used at that time were stubby, funny-looking little critters that mostly only a mother could love. Hopefully someone can produce a picture of one---- try looking under New York Central locomotives.


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## Long Train Runnin' (Aug 13, 2008)

Googled around for awhile looking for that early electric engine to no avail however I did find something more interesting then an electric Engine an ROCKET POWERED one!! which blew my mind it hold the rail speed record in the USA 183.85 in the 60s







now thats high speed rail


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## sky12065 (Aug 13, 2008)

*"QUICK MARTY! IT'S YOUR KIDS!"*

*The Next* *Back to the Future Episode*


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## rogers55 (Aug 13, 2008)

As far as the immigration people go that would seem to be normal.

Whenever you are near a border on public transportation you are likely

to get questioned.

They stopped an on duty Los Angeles Airport Policeman last year and

wanted to question him. Caused a big standoff between the two agencies.

It has always seemed strange to me that someone who was safe in Canada

suddenly becomes dangerous when they walk across the border.


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## printman2000 (Aug 13, 2008)

Are those rockets? They look like jet engines.


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## WhoozOn1st (Aug 13, 2008)

printman2000 said:


> Are those rockets? They look like jet engines.


Jet engines, taken from a Convair B-36.


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## Gingee (Aug 13, 2008)

We were surprised to see the immigration people. Never have seen that before.


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## frj1983 (Aug 14, 2008)

Gingee said:


> We were surprised to see the immigration people. Never have seen that before.


Oh yeah,

That's your Government supposedly doing something about Terrorism! h34r:


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## sky12065 (Aug 14, 2008)

Gingee said:


> We were surprised to see the immigration people. Never have seen that before.


I too was suprised about 10 years ago when drug sniffing dogs went thorough the train (SWC) I was on. And the answer is NO, I wasn't removed from the train when this happened! (You know that some wise *** is gonna thunk I did  )


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## Gingee (Aug 14, 2008)

On the way back, the immigration people just walked through the car and that was about it.


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## MattW (Aug 14, 2008)

If Wikipedia's anything to go on, then the locomotive that drug the 20th Century Limited through the NY tunnels was a T3A at least on the instance that the train was "sampled." For pics of the T3A, go here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=7523


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## had8ley (Aug 14, 2008)

I promise you they were as mean an engine as they looked. They shook so violently you could not stand up at track speed. (My hoghead said, "We don't look at the speedometer we go until we can't count the telephone poles.") They were hot, dreary and loud as they could get but they were the power to be between Harmon/White Plains and GCT for many a year.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Aug 15, 2008)

had8ley said:


> I promise you they were as mean an engine as they looked. They shook so violently you could not stand up at track speed. (My hoghead said, "We don't look at the speedometer we go until we can't count the telephone poles.") They were hot, dreary and loud as they could get but they were the power to be between Harmon/White Plains and GCT for many a year.




I am not a locomotive expert but I seem to recall pictures of something dark green, rather than NYC colors, and maybe even stubbier looking than that. Probably in the 40's, maybe gone by the 50's.

I can picture it in books at home but have not found it on the net, so far.


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## had8ley (Aug 16, 2008)

The NYC had a real stubby electric box that drug trains from Mott Haven yard to GCT. I think it was #100 but I don't remember the color. It was supposedly the first electric cab on the property from the teens.


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## AlanB (Aug 16, 2008)

rogers55 said:


> As far as the immigration people go that would seem to be normal.Whenever you are near a border on public transportation you are likely
> 
> to get questioned.


Anytime you are within 100 miles of a US border you can be stopped and subject to questioning and search by US Customs. And it's not just public transportation either. One can find check points on many highways, like for example I-87 just south of the Lake Placid area. They make everyone stop and usually ask each car at least a question or two before allowing one to proceed. But there are usually a few cars that get singled out for one reason or another for further questioning and possibly searched.



rogers55 said:


> They stopped an on duty Los Angeles Airport Policeman last year and wanted to question him. Caused a big standoff between the two agencies.


No contest there and I'm surprised that the LA police didn't know that they loose in that situation. Customs is Federal and that always trumps anything State or City. That officer is lucky he's not cooling his heals in a Federal jail and facing Federal prosecution for his refusal.



rogers55 said:


> It has always seemed strange to me that someone who was safe in Canadasuddenly becomes dangerous when they walk across the border.


Not that strange at all considering how many terrorists have been caught at the US border or even later, that got into the US via Canada.


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## wayman (Aug 17, 2008)

rogers55 said:


> It has always seemed strange to me that someone who was safe in Canadasuddenly becomes dangerous when they walk across the border.


Not too many people are that interested in terrorizing Canada. Rather more are interested in terrorizing the United States. Still not that many, but decidedly more.


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## jm (Aug 29, 2008)

I took the Lake Shore Limited on Sunday, August 24th - to arrive in Albany on the 25th. On Monday morning in Erie, PA, the border patrol also boarded our train and questioned everyone their nationality. They scrutinized anyone that spoke with an accent, (except for two English students who they gave a quick look at their passports and handed them back, no questions asked). They woke up a woman who was Brazilian and apparently did not have the proper papers and pulled her and her baggage off the train.

Ridiculous.



Gingee said:


> Just got off the Lakeshore Limited yesterday. Took it from Chicago to NYC.
> When we left Chicago, they first called for the handicapped people, then the seniors, then the people with children ten and under, then finally us. We got the last car with weak air conditioning and no outlets. The food was better going to NYC.
> 
> Coming back it was basically anyone who did not have a sleeper could get on. We got in a car (last one like last time) with outlets and air conditioning so that was better. They did run out of food very early on. Not sure why.
> ...


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## MrFSS (Aug 29, 2008)

jm said:


> They woke up a woman who was Brazilian and apparently did not have the proper papers and pulled her and her baggage off the train.
> Ridiculous.


Why is it ridiculous to take into custody someone who doesn't have the proper paperwork and isn't a US citizen. That's what its all about. The only way they will catch folks breaking the law is to come aboard and search.


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## nerd (Aug 29, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> jm said:
> 
> 
> > They woke up a woman who was Brazilian and apparently did not have the proper papers and pulled her and her baggage off the train.
> ...


What law are they breaking? Is there one that requires everyone to have proper papers with them at all times? Or when on trains?


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## MrFSS (Aug 29, 2008)

nerd said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > jm said:
> ...


If you aren't a US citizen, are in the US and don't have a visa to be here, isn't that breaking the law?


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## haolerider (Aug 29, 2008)

nerd said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > jm said:
> ...


If you are planning to cross an International border and don't have the proper paperwork, documents or whatever you need, yes you are violating a law. If they were traveling by plane, they would not have even been allowed on the plane without the proper documentation.


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## nerd (Aug 29, 2008)

haolerider said:


> If you are planning to cross an International border and don't have the proper paperwork, documents or whatever you need, yes you are violating a law. If they were traveling by plane, they would not have even been allowed on the plane without the proper documentation.


Right.
As far as I know, the LSL does *not* cross an international border. But, maybe things have changed since I took it Sunday afternoon.


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## nerd (Aug 29, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> nerd said:
> 
> 
> > MrFSS said:
> ...


So, if I'm travelling on the LSL with out proper papers (e.g. my U.S. passport), that means that I'm not a U.S. citizen, don't have a visa to be here, and therefore I'm breaking the law?


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## profwebs (Aug 29, 2008)

nerd said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
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> > nerd said:
> ...


US citizens are required by law to carry ID. Be it a drivers license, state ID, or passport.


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## nerd (Aug 29, 2008)

profwebs said:


> US citizens are required by law to carry ID. Be it a drivers license, state ID, or passport.


Thanks for answering my original question.
As someone who rarely, if ever, has ID with me (unless required by whatever airline, or train I'm getting on), I was *completely *unaware of this law!


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## Joel N. Weber II (Aug 29, 2008)

profwebs said:


> US citizens are required by law to carry ID. Be it a drivers license, state ID, or passport.


My understanding has been that that is not the case, in general, and that American citizens are perfectly welcome to walk around, ride as passengers in private automobiles, and ride as passengers in private airplanes without carrying any ID whatsoever. (Ironically, the only time I remember showing a police officer my driver's license, I was a pedestrian.)

Drivers and pilots are required to have licenses with them.

Airlines and Amtrak typically want to see identification from many or all of their passengers.

Commuter railroads and local transit systems generally don't care who you are.

John Gilmore is one person who has spent a lot of time on this issue. I believe there is also someone at Harvard Law School who has determined emperically that it actually is possible to fly on a commercial flight while refusing to show ID.

A driver's license does not prove citizenship, and I believe that when employers are verifying that an employee is eligible to work in the US, they can use a driver's license to verify that the person in the photograph on the driver's license is the person with the name printed on the driver's license, but then another document is needed to establish that the person with that name is a US citizen.


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## profwebs (Aug 29, 2008)

Joel N. Weber II said:


> profwebs said:
> 
> 
> > US citizens are required by law to carry ID. Be it a drivers license, state ID, or passport.
> ...



I stand corrected. I have always been under the assumption that it was law to carry ID at all times. It's only required when driving. (not including other forms of travel). But, growing up where I did, I was always asked for my ID :angry:


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## VentureForth (Aug 29, 2008)

profwebs said:


> Joel N. Weber II said:
> 
> 
> > profwebs said:
> ...


You grew up in a liquor store? :lol:

Just kidding. They are right, though, about the ID. Of course, if you are suspicious in any way, an officer has every right in the world to detain you until they determine who you are.

As a non-US citizen, however, you ARE required to carry ID and it MUST show your citizenship. Of course, you could always lie and say you are an American and don't need ID, but that could get you messed up by the cops.

You are also required by Amtrak, not the law, to carry ID onboard its trains. That's their rule, and if you're onboard without ID and a cop does a sweep, you could find yourself off the train. Probably won't get arrested for anything, but you'll wind up with a long walk ahead of you.


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## Rail Freak (Aug 29, 2008)

Here in Florida, a man was arrested while hanging out at the nearest concvenience store. He was an illegal worker from Mexico! The authorities are cracking down on immigrant laws & should! It's just not the way it was, thro in terrorists & WHAT A MESS!. Better to be safe than sorry, they say. B)


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## Gingee (Aug 29, 2008)

There is a comment on the phone when you call Amtrak about passengers are required to carry identification. Now I don't think it specifies what kind of ID but hey, be safe and carry it.


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## wayman (Aug 29, 2008)

Gingee said:


> There is a comment on the phone when you call Amtrak about passengers are required to carry identification. Now I don't think it specifies what kind of ID but hey, be safe and carry it.


However, it's best to leave your ego at home :lol:


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## Rail Freak (Aug 29, 2008)

There, Lies The Problem!


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## AlanB (Aug 30, 2008)

nerd said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > If you are planning to cross an International border and don't have the proper paperwork, documents or whatever you need, yes you are violating a law. If they were traveling by plane, they would not have even been allowed on the plane without the proper documentation.
> ...


You are correct, the LSL doesn't cross an international border. But under US law, anytime you are within 100 miles of a US border, US customs does have the right to stop, question, and detain you if they don't believe you are here legally and you can't otherwise prove that you are here legally.

On more than one occasion I've been stopped coming back to NYC from the Lake Placid area on I-87 by Customs officers. They put a check point right on the highway and stop every car and ask a question or two. If they don't like what they see and hear, they have you pull right into the rest area opposite the checkpoint for further questioning.


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## Montanan (Aug 30, 2008)

For whatever reason, the Border Patrol folks do seem to pay an inordinate amount of attention to Amtrak trains, including domestic ones that travel near the Canadian and Mexican borders. When I rode the Sunset last winter, the Border Patrol did a walk-through of the train while it was stopped at Del Rio ... and they removed an undocumented woman and her children. The crew told me that such an inspection is a regular occurrence. Similar inspections happen on the Empire Builder in Montana.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

Ya know, there's another excellent reason to carry id on you at all times. If you're injured or otherwise unable to speak for yourself it aids emergency workers to get you faster help. I wear a dog tag any time I'm away from the home zone, especially when swimming and always carry id with me in other circumstances.

My sweetheart died suddenly while running a 10k race at the age of 33. He was wearing the standard runner's bib given in a race. To identify him, the number on the bib had to be traced back to his race application. This delayed notification.


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## rmgreenesq (Aug 30, 2008)

Having ridden the LSL in both coach and a sleeper, I can report with authority that the Border Patrol does not talk to the passengers in the sleepers. So if you are an illegal alien, spring for the sleeper!

Rick


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## Montanan (Aug 30, 2008)

Heh ... they completely ignored me, as well, though the fact that I was standing on the platform gabbing with the crew, with a camera around my neck, probably branded me as the sort of nut they weren't interested in. 

They did, however, walk one their dogs through the hall of my sleeping car ... looking for drug smells, maybe?


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