# Resumption of Amtrak service to Canada (2022-2023)



## Nobody

I was surprised about 1.35 pm this afternoon (Sat 5 Feb 2022) to be held up momentarily on Rupert Street in East Van as an Amtrak Cascades consist sped eastwards from Pacific Central Station.

Five cars top-and-tailed by usual Cascades power/diesel were not Talgo stock.

Amtrak Cascades' schedule doesn't admit to any resumption of cross-border operation, so a test/training run?


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## zephyr17

Nobody said:


> I was surprised about 1.35 pm this afternoon (Sat 5 Feb 2022) to be held up momentarily on Rupert Street in East Van as an Amtrak Cascades consist sped eastwards from Pacific Central Station.
> 
> Five cars top-and-tailed by usual Cascades power/diesel were not Talgo stock.
> 
> Amtrak Cascades' schedule doesn't admit to any resumption of cross-border operation, so a test/training run?


Well, at least they are keeping crews qualified.


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## amtrakpass

I don't know if it is a reliable indicator but it looks like you can buy a train ticket to Vancouver BC starting June 3rd this year.


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## Nobody

And that isn't just for the existing single Thruway bus departure?

If yesterday's movement was training/testing, they sure used a lot of equipment which had me wondering about some sort of special... but with border restrictions, I doubt that.

But thanks for your response.


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## amtrakpass

No, there are actual train tickets available for purchase after June 3rd 2022 if you check the app or website. It looks like trains 516 and 518 towards Vancouver BC and trains 517 and 519 toward Seattle and further stops. Before that date it is only the connecting bus service that shows up. Of course they could change that at a later date but the trains are in the reservation system for the time being.


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## zephyr17

amtrakpass said:


> No, there are actual train tickets available for purchase after June 3rd 2022 if you check the app or website. It looks like trains 516 and 518 towards Vancouver BC and trains 517 and 519 toward Seattle and further stops. Before that date it is only the connecting bus service that shows up. Of course they could change that at a later date but the trains are in the reservation system for the time being.


Doesn't mean much. Both trains had been back in the reservation system as of mid-January. Bought ticket for March 26th.

Amtrak cancelled it.

At this point, I would treat it as an artifact of the reservation system, not a commitment to actually running trains. Washington DOT will make a big, public fuss about resuming service, they want badly want to resume the service. Don't count on any thing until a public announcement is made.


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## Seaboard92

Just qualifying runs. Nothing special.


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## AmtrakBlue

Amtrak To Resume Service Between Vancouver and Seattle After 2 Years


The Amtrak Cascades is resuming service to allow international travel across the border between Seattle and Vancouver.




 604now.com


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## GoAmtrak

Wow the Canadian goverment is very generous .

In Europe, border-crossing trains are back to normal for a relatively long time. They have been restored mostly in mid-summer 2020.

In contrast, the Canadian government waits two more years to re-establish them, or even more. Does this show how little relevance this government gives to passenger railway and how paranoid they are of Corona? Or are there other reasons for waiting such a long time?

Nonetheless, better news than nothing, although quite late.


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## GAT

Canada allowed Americans back in a few months before USA allowed Canadians back in. From the article: "Last year Canada reopened its borders to Americans in August, and America reopened its borders to Canadians in November."


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## Nobody

George said:


> Canada allowed Americans back in a few months before USA allowed Canadians back in. From the article: "Last year Canada reopened its borders to Americans in August, and America reopened its borders to Canadians in November."



And I don't think the economics of running the service would have been (and possibly will still be) particularly attractive. Support funding comes from the state of Washington and Oregon. Neither the Province of British Columbia nor the Canadian federal government are involved, apart from Ottawa having to foot the bill for border-clearing staff at Pacific Central Station.

Even currently, Cascades' service is way below pre-COVID levels:

"*Amtrak Cascades trains connect cities along the I-5 corridor including Seattle, Portland, and Eugene, Oregon. Skip traffic. Take the train. 

Daily round trip train service includes:*



 Three daily round trips between Portland and Seattle
 Two daily round trips between Eugene and Portland
 One bus between Seattle and Bellingham."
There is no "rail" service to Bellingham either, and several scheduled services south from Portland are bustituted. One of the daily round trips between Seattle and Eugene is the Coast Starlight, and thus strictly speaking not a Cascades service.


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## GAT

Nobody said:


> And I don't think the economics of running the service would have been (and possibly will still be) particularly attractive. Support funding comes from the state of Washington and Oregon. Neither the Province of British Columbia nor the Canadian federal government are involved, apart from Ottawa having to foot the bill for border-clearing staff at Pacific Central Station.
> 
> Even currently, Cascades' service is way below pre-COVID levels:
> 
> "*Amtrak Cascades trains connect cities along the I-5 corridor including Seattle, Portland, and Eugene, Oregon. Skip traffic. Take the train.
> 
> Daily round trip train service includes:*
> 
> 
> 
> Three daily round trips between Portland and Seattle
> Two daily round trips between Eugene and Portland
> One bus between Seattle and Bellingham."
> There is no "rail" service to Bellingham either, and several scheduled services south from Portland are bustituted. One of the daily round trips between Seattle and Eugene is the Coast Starlight, and thus strictly speaking not a Cascades service.


Yes, this is the current situation, but I believe the article says that rail service will be resumed later this year.


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## zephyr17

This article has no attribution of the Amtrak official who made the announcement. Neither does it state its Amtrak source wishes to remain anonymous.

Neither the Seattle Times nor the Vancouver Sun have run articles on an Amtrak announcement of service resumption to Vancouver.

I put very little faith in this article in light of the lack of attribution and the fact that major local media outlets have not published this "announcement".


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## GAT

Point taken. We'll just have to wait and see.


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## jis

This is all that Amtrak has to say on the subject so far:









Amtrak Advisory | Amtrak Cascades Cross Border Service Resumption Plan







www.amtrak.com





Maybe they forgot to tell Amtrak 

Though it is almost certain that eventually it will start


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## GAT

This, plus a previous thread about the trip being on Amtrak's reservation system renders me hopeful. I dream of once again being able to travel by train between my San Francisco home and my Vancouver home town.


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## Willbridge

Nobody said:


> And I don't think the economics of running the service would have been (and possibly will still be) particularly attractive. Support funding comes from the state of Washington and Oregon. Neither the Province of British Columbia nor the Canadian federal government are involved, apart from Ottawa having to foot the bill for border-clearing staff at Pacific Central Station.
> 
> Even currently, Cascades' service is way below pre-COVID levels:
> 
> "*Amtrak Cascades trains connect cities along the I-5 corridor including Seattle, Portland, and Eugene, Oregon. Skip traffic. Take the train.
> 
> Daily round trip train service includes:*
> 
> 
> 
> Three daily round trips between Portland and Seattle
> Two daily round trips between Eugene and Portland
> One bus between Seattle and Bellingham."
> There is no "rail" service to Bellingham either, and several scheduled services south from Portland are bustituted. One of the daily round trips between Seattle and Eugene is the Coast Starlight, and thus strictly speaking not a Cascades service.


South of Portland there are only two _Cascades _and the _Coast Starlight_ trains. The buses are additional, not bustituted. Oregon instigated the bus trips to cover additional train connections such as to Train 28 and to protect against erratic performance by Train 14. Oregon is one of the states that permits non-rail travel on Amtrak Thruway buses, so there are other bus routes connecting with these buses.

Here's EUG>PDX for President's Day, which is not a big deal in Oregon.


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## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> This article has no attribution of the Amtrak official who made the announcement. Neither does it state its Amtrak source wishes to remain anonymous.
> 
> Neither the Seattle Times nor the Vancouver Sun have run articles on an Amtrak announcement of service resumption to Vancouver.
> 
> I put very little faith in this article in light of the lack of attribution and the fact that major local media outlets have not published this "announcement".


The two other "rail" articles referenced at the bottom of the one linked sound a little dubious too.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

jiml said:


> The two other "rail" articles referenced at the bottom of the one linked sound a little dubious too.


Yes the one about Hyperloop happening "soon". Their definition of "soon" must be "sometime before the sun turns into a red giant and incinerates the earth"


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## Chris I

I would really hope they get things running again by June. Covid cases are plummeting fast in our region, and tourism traffic is surely going to bounce back this summer. They need to have service in place by the time schools get out in June.


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## JWM

Rumors as well for Toronto and Montreal service, too. What is needed is for the Canadian and U.S. governments to "sign on" to an agreement to "clear" passengers at the Vancouver and Montreal stations. Toronto is a bit more involved as the "Maple Leaf" had stops in Canada before Toronto. Customs clearance in Canada would speed up the service and make it more attractive. Still cooking on a back burner is extending the "Vermonter" from St. Albans to Montreal which makes sense as well.


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## jis

Actually even the Adirondack has a stop in Canada - St. Lambert, which is going to be discontinued when C&I inspection moves to Montreal Central. 

Adirondack is an Amtrak train on its entire route. The Maple Leaf is not. It is a VIA train in Canada.


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## zephyr17

JWM said:


> Rumors as well for Toronto and Montreal service, too. What is needed is for the Canadian and U.S. governments to "sign on" to an agreement to "clear" passengers at the Vancouver and Montreal stations. Toronto is a bit more involved as the "Maple Leaf" had stops in Canada before Toronto. Customs clearance in Canada would speed up the service and make it more attractive. Still cooking on a back burner is extending the "Vermonter" from St. Albans to Montreal which makes sense as well.


The Preclearance agreement revised to include rail is already in place between the two governments. It was finalized shortly before COVID hit.

The issue now is not having the legal ability to do it, but getting facilities built in Montreal so Preclearance can take place there and expanded in Vancouver so US Customs can take place there along with US Immigration (which has always been done in Vancouver in sort of a "Preclearance lite") so the southbound US Customs stop at Blaine can be eliminated.

It will not happen at Toronto. VIA operates the Maple Leaf in Canada and it will continue to make intermediate stops (eliminating the St. Lambert stop on the Adirondack should not be a big deal). However, the relatively new Niagara Falls, NY station was designed to support Canadian, as well as US, clearance. The new agreement is bilateral, both sides can set up Preclearance on the other's territory if they desire. The facilities in the new(ish) station on the NY side are much better than at the old VIA station on the Ontario side.

Word is the Vermonter will not be considered for extension to Montreal until full US and Canadian port of entry facilities are available in Montreal's Gare Central. Apparently, neither CBSA nor CBP will support adding any more onboard inspection trains.


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## JWM

Yes, and the St.Lambert stop is right opposite Montreal on the south shore of the St. Lawrence River. Yes, the "Maple Leaf" is a Via Rail train once it crosses into Ontario, but it is a through train so the equipment is Amtrak. As a point of just how rail gets short shrift. U.S. Customs and Immigration pre-clearance has been in operation at major Canadian airports for what seems like forever. I lived in Vermont for 16 years and extending the "Vermonter" northward comes up in the legislature every year. Central Station in Montreal is getting more crowded with commuter and the new line for the north side of the island of Montreal using the old CN tunnel. Still, this should be accomplished and quickly.


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## zephyr17

I hear they have designated a track for a "train jail" at Montreal like they have at Vancouver and at least some other preliminary design work for port of entry facilities has been done. But it is not moving fast from what I hear.


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## jis

zephyr17 said:


> I hear they have designated a track for a "train jail" at Montreal like they have at Vancouver and at least some other preliminary design work for port of entry facilities has been done. But it is not moving fast from what I hear.


Has it actually been fully funded by Quebec or Canada yet? I have not heard anything this way or not. Maybe time to touch base with Carl Fowler in Vermont to get the latest.


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## zephyr17

jis said:


> Has it actually been fully funded by Quebec or Canada yet? I have not heard anything this way or not. Maybe time to touch base with Carl Fowler in Vermont to get the latest.


I don't know. I know funding is one of the hold ups, that is about it.


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## neroden

zephyr17 said:


> I hear they have designated a track for a "train jail" at Montreal like they have at Vancouver and at least some other preliminary design work for port of entry facilities has been done. But it is not moving fast from what I hear.


The design work at Montreal is several years old. I've seen the diagrams, though I don't have them now.

Yes, they designated a track and a platform and preliminary layout for customs facilities, with elevator and escalator. They have to restore a platform in an area currently abused by local employees as automobile parking; I have no idea how much trouble "taking away parking" is causing in this process. 

The process was well in hand -- the biggest previous obstacle, the Canadian federal preclearance treaty and legislation, was finished -- when the Quebec government changed and people at Amtrak and Vermont DOT were suddenly unable to find anyone to talk to in Quebec for several years. I hear that the process has restarted but have not heard of any specific progress since then.


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## jis

As I alluded to above, I did get in touch with Carl from Vermont who knows the most upto date information about the Vermonter. What he said is not very encouraging.

Apparently the new Quebec Government has pretty much trashed everything that had been done so far and has started a review of the entire project from scratch. So whatever progress had been made towards funding is not there anymore. Neither Amtrak nor VTTRANS has gotten in touch with CN regarding any necessary track upgrade for extending the Vermonter.

CN is likely to want the operation of the Richeleu River Drawbridge to be automated, as it is currently hand operated. They will also want the switch at Cantic to be remote operated instead of hand thrown as now.

While at it CN has also threatened to downgrade the line in the US to both St. Albans and to Rouses Point to 10mph since according to them there are no passenger trains running anymore. Afterall, all of the freight traffic on CP continues on CP at Rouses Point.

Now the Vermont folks are trying to get New York on board to work on getting a grant from the Infrastructure plan to get the necessary track issues at least taken care of. As for when Quebec will get around to doing anything is now anyone's guess. But bottom line is everything is back to square one, if not all the way to square minus one.


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## Exvalley

George said:


> Canada allowed Americans back in a few months before USA allowed Canadians back in. From the article: "Last year Canada reopened its borders to Americans in August, and America reopened its borders to Canadians in November."


Canadians were allowed to fly to the United States well before Canada allowed Americans to enter. The article is addressing the land border.

To really open up travel, Canada needs to drop its testing requirement. As of March an antigen test will be sufficient, but it's still a pain in the neck since a self-reported home test does not qualify.


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## CJIMI

So, any idea when service to Montreal will re-start on the Adirondack ?


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## zephyr17

CJIMI said:


> So, any idea when service to Montreal will re-start on the Adirondack ?


No.

Rumor has it Amtrak wants to restart the cross border services simultaneously or near simultaneously. This despite the fact that all three are state funded, not National Network trains, so resumption should be largely a state decision once border procedures are hashed out. Also they each have different border procedures (Cascades most everything is done in Vancouver except US Customs inspection, Maple Leaf, inspections in station at border, Adirondack onboard at border). Plus the Maple Leaf has the added complication of being VIA operated in Canada, so restarting that one is not solely an Amtrak decision.

Pretty much no one knows. I do know Washington DOT wants service to resume as early as it can. I do not know New York State's position on its Maple Leaf and Adirondack services.


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## neroden

New York's governor changed recently and I doubt the new administration has formed a position. I haven't been very active in Empire State Passengers Association but ESPA is apparently working on it.


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## williamn

Am hoping to take Maple Leaf in July...not getting my hopes up!


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## zephyr17

williamn said:


> Am hoping to take Maple Leaf in July...not getting my hopes up!


I am hoping to take both the Cascades and Maple Leaf in November. I am mildly optimistic about the Cascades, I am not that optimistic about the Maple Leaf.


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## Amtrak25

Even though VIA Rail has nothing to do with the Adirondack's revenue operation north of Rousses Pt, they have to haul it to the yard and back, and service it overnight in Montreal. You'll see those little brown VIA Rail garbage backs (and can keep one as a souveneir) at each seat upon boarding in Montreal. 

Another quesion is if the Port Kent ferry will ever come back. It didn't run the last two summers, recently scrapped the 107 year old "Adi", and are looking for full time deckhands for the Grand Isle and Charlotte routes, not the Port Kent one.


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## jiml

Resumption of cross-border services will require the harmonization of vaccine and mask mandates between the two countries. Ontario and other provinces have removed proof-of-vaccination for most things, but trains are federally regulated and there has been little indication of movement in Canada until later in the year.


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## Amtrak25

If Greyhound is any example, the Montreal - Vermont - Boston route of 1 frequency (there were 4 pre-pandemic) that also skipped Burlington for some reason, went back down to 0 after a month or so. Adirondack Trailways from NYC-PABT has their normal 2 frequencies, but Greyhound went from 0 to 2 in January, but then quickly back to 1. There were 3 or 4 pre-pandemic. 

Requiring any sort of test within 72 hours is a show-stopper for me, and I thnk a lot of other people. It has to be done by a lab, not a home test, like the CDC rapid test they might have mailed you.


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## zephyr17

jiml said:


> Resumption of cross-border services will require the harmonization of vaccine and mask mandates between the two countries. Ontario and other provinces have removed proof-of-vaccination for most things, but trains are federally regulated and there has been little indication of movement in Canada until later in the year.


It doesn't require harmonization any more than air or bus travel does. It just requires agreed upon processes to enforce each nation's requirements.


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## Exvalley

A source that has been very reliable in the past tells me that the testing requirement for entry into Canada will be abolished altogether starting on March 31st. They say that an announcement will be made very soon. We shall see...


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## Exvalley

Amtrak25 said:


> Requiring any sort of test within 72 hours is a show-stopper for me


The problem for me is that, unless I want to travel and pay a lot of money, there is not a local testing source that can reliably guarantee a test result in 72 hours. This makes it difficult to commit to hotels since the cancellation window closes before you know if your test result will be in on time.


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## niemi24s

Amtrak25 said:


> Requiring any sort of test within 72 hours is a show-stopper for me, and I thnk a lot of other people. It has to be done by a lab, not a home test, like the CDC rapid test they might have mailed you.


And if that test is an RT-PCR CPOVID-19 lab test it can be kind of pricey. Paid $200 for one in NOL three weeks ago but the lab advertised results within 15 minutes. Walgreens and CVS can also take the swab sample but need to send the sample to a lab and claim results only within one to three days. Thiers were $50 to $60 cheaper however.


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## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> It doesn't require harmonization any more than air or bus travel does. It just requires agreed upon processes to enforce each nation's requirements.


Air travel is effectively harmonized and bus travel is irrelevant. Vaccination is not required to travel on Amtrak but is required for train travel in Canada. Who enforces that? Does Amtrak check status and offload non-compliant Cascade passengers in Bellingham or just wait until restrictions ease before resuming service? The latter makes more sense.


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## zephyr17

jiml said:


> Air travel is effectively harmonized and bus travel is irrelevant. Vaccination is not required to travel on Amtrak but is required for train travel in Canada. Who enforces that? Does Amtrak check status and offload non-compliant Cascade passengers in Bellingham or just wait until restrictions ease before resuming service? The latter makes more sense.


Amtrak can require an ArriveCan result code of V (Vaccinated but documents require checking) or I (Immunized, no further check required) be displayed either on the ArriveCan app or by paper printout, just like requiring a passport other valid travel document.

Vaccination proof is submitted with ArriveCan application. CBSA does the validating to its satisfaction and determines the result code.

That is what the airlines do, since ArriveCan is required of everyone heading to Canada.

Those without a valid ArriveCan result code can be deboarded in Bellingham, just like people ticketed for Canada without a passport were before all this started. Amtrak conductors made sure all passengers proceeding past Bellingham had a valid document for Canadian entry.

Doesn't really sound like you ever rode the Cascades pre-COVID, and so are unfamiliar with the procedures on it. Deboarding at or before Bellingham or refusal of boarding was normal for those without proper documents to cross the border.

You didn't need a passport to ride Amtrak, either. But you needed one to ride Amtrak to Canada. ArriveCan is just another required travel document.

No "harmonization" is needed any more than for airlines, just a process.


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## bbappel

In a minor defense of the OP, your statement: "Doesn't really sound like you ever rode the Cascades pre-COVID, and so are unfamiliar with the procedures on it. Deboarding at or before Bellingham or refusal of boarding was normal for those without proper documents to cross the border," presumes that any of us have a pre-Covid memory bank left. I've forgotten so much over the past two years.


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## WWW

Wonder if Amtrak bears the same responsibility as the airlines do ?
If the transport of a passenger without proper documentation happens then that transporting agent is
responsible to return the said passenger (immediately) back to the point of origin.
Or something on that order -
A mistake was made -
The solution correction is to return the passenger back to the point of origin -
Other fines and penalties maybe taken up right then and there or later.
Airlines are particularly keen on this - flying a passenger for 10 hours and then having a return 10 hours later
and perhaps footing the (non-medical) quarantine in the mean time and the loss of a revenue seat.

What is great air travel between Canada and the US is the preclearance so when one is boarding
in Canada you are now on a domestic flight in the US.
How does Amtrak compare in this ?


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## zephyr17

WWW said:


> Wonder if Amtrak bears the same responsibility as the airlines do ?
> If the transport of a passenger without proper documentation happens then that transporting agent is
> responsible to return the said passenger (immediately) back to the point of origin.
> Or something on that order -
> A mistake was made -
> The solution correction is to return the passenger back to the point of origin -
> Other fines and penalties maybe taken up right then and there or later.
> Airlines are particularly keen on this - flying a passenger for 10 hours and then having a return 10 hours later
> and perhaps footing the (non-medical) quarantine in the mean time and the loss of a revenue seat.


I am pretty sure the rules apply to all common carriers, irrespective of mode.

Not only do they have to carry the passenger back at their own expense, although they will apply the return ticket if there is one, the carrier gets fined and those fines can be stiff.

Note the fine occurs only if the carrier allows the passenger to be transported when the passenger lacks proper documentation, such as a passport with the proper visa (when required) or in this case, an ArriveCan authorization. If the immigration agent decides to deny entry to a traveler with proper documents for other reasons, say, lack of funds or suspicion of intent to work, the carrier still has to transport the person, but the carrier does not get fined.


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## wildchicken13

I apologize if this is a stupid question, by why doesn't Amtrak check passports at the point of departure? I understand that not everyone on the train is going to Canada, but for the people who are, wouldn't it make more sense to check passports before boarding, rather than on the train?


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## Willbridge

wildchicken13 said:


> I apologize if this is a stupid question, by why doesn't Amtrak check passports at the point of departure? I understand that not everyone on the train is going to Canada, but for the people who are, wouldn't it make more sense to check passports before boarding, rather than on the train?


It's not stupid at major stations, but when these trains stop at unstaffed stations the dwell times would go up. And it would be awkward for passengers handling their luggage, kids, pillows, etc. to have to show everyone's passports on the platform, in various types of weather.


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## Amtrak25

wildchicken13 said:


> I apologize if this is a stupid question, by why doesn't Amtrak check passports at the point of departure? I understand that not everyone on the train is going to Canada, but for the people who are, wouldn't it make more sense to check passports before boarding, rather than on the train?



They do in New York Penn, but that's all. Regardless, on every Adirondack trip I have taken, CBSA has pulled a couple of people off in my car, and they got on in NYC. They also spend 50% of their time on 5% of the people for the 90 minutes they typically take.


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## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> They do in New York Penn, but that's all. Regardless, on every Adirondack trip I have taken, CBSA has pulled a couple of people off in my car, and they got on in NYC. They also spend 50% of their time on 5% of the people for the 90 minutes they typically take.


They checked before boarding in Seattle on the Cascades, but I usually got on in Everett. They'd check my NEXUS card (US/Canada frequent border crossing card) when they walked through and scanned my ticket after the train was underway.

Everett usually had a pretty good crowd boarding, too.

Most people had the proper ID and not everyone is going to Canada. Would take extra time to sort out everything at brief intermediate station stops instead of the usual ticket walk once the train is underway. It is easy enough to put the few passengers without documentation off at the next stop, just as they do the few passengers lacking tickets.


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## williamn

Amtrak25 said:


> They do in New York Penn, but that's all. Regardless, on every Adirondack trip I have taken, CBSA has pulled a couple of people off in my car, and they got on in NYC. They also spend 50% of their time on 5% of the people for the 90 minutes they typically take.



The checks at New York Penn have always seemed pointless including the instance on having a special luggage tag, when no one else who gets on the train en route gets checked in the same way (at least on the Maple Leaf).


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## Amtrak25

Agree. It is security theatre nonsense by the Gate Dragons impersonating Customs. The big authoritarian looking desk they stand behind with a Canadian flag handing out seat checks just to be collected before you head down the stairs, and the bar coded luggage stickers they afix to you e-ticket could be an SNL skit. If CBSA got a look at these machinations, they'd die laughing, and it is hard for them to laugh.

One could always take Metro North to Yonkers or Harmon to avoid that silliness as well as standing in line for an hour, but you won 't get a window seat.


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## zephyr17

I don't recall a "big, authoritarian looking desk". I recall a not particularly intimidating podium on wheels that they rolled out at NYP.

I do agree it had the aspects of theater and I don't think anyone, including CBSA, paid one bit of attention to the special tags.

I do think checking passports/documentation prior to boarding at the originating terminal does make sense. It lessens the workload for the conductors onboard, who only need to be concerned with those boarding at intermediate points.


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## amtrakpass

I saw on the CBC this eve Canada is planning on announcing an end to the pre travel covid testing requirement at a news conference tomorrow 03/17. I am hoping Amtrak is able to restart cross-border services soon if that turns out to be the case. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-to-drop-pre-departure-testing-1.6386763


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## zephyr17

I understand that enforcement of, and dealing those without the right testing documentation, was one of the bigger issues for CBSA for restarting the Cascades.


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## amtrakpass

update from the CBC today sounds like Canada will officially drop the testing requirement for vaccinated travelers by April 1st.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-to-drop-pre-departure-testing-1.6386763


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## Amtrak25

You still must enter all Passport and Vaccine infor on the Arrive Canada app.


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## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> You still must enter all Passport and Vaccine infor on the Arrive Canada app.


Yes, but the test was the real wild card, and you don't submit the test result document itself on ArriveCan, like you do with proof of vaccination. You enter the test result but result document itself is only examined at primary inspection and there were a lot of cases where it either wasn't the right test or was too old. Up until a few weeks ago, it had to be a PCR test, not antigen, and even when antigen tests were allowed, they couldn't be home self tests. I do know one of CBSA's issues on resuming Cascades service is they didn't have space or facilities at Vancouver's Pacific Central Station to handle more than a very few people that didn't qualify for entry or had to be referred to secondary inspection. The test was a wild card that caused a lot of people to be ineligible for entry who thought they were okay.

As I said above, I do not see ArriveCan as an impediment. Now, with dropping the test requirement, it becomes much more cut and dried. ArriveCan V or I result code, you are good. No ArriveCan or other result code, off the train you go. Just like not having a passport. It puts the evaluation in the hands of CBSA with a result can be easily checked by the train crews.

I think ArriveCan submission is likely to become a permanent. I do not see Canada dropping the vaccination requirement any time in the near future, if ever. And I think they may well keep ArriveCan even if they do eventually drop the vaccination requirement. As far as CBSA is concerned, the more information they have in advance, the better.

BTW, I've been to Canada twice since the border reopened. ArriveCan is easy to do and quick.

Now they need to get rid of the silly quarantine "plan" requirement. All that does is encourage fiction writing.


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## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> Yes, but the test was the real wild card, and you don't submit the test result document itself on ArriveCan, like you do with proof of vaccination. You enter the test result but result document itself is only examined at primary inspection and there were a lot of cases where it either wasn't the right test or was too old. Up until a few weeks ago, it had to be a PCR test, not antigen, and even when antigen tests were allowed, they couldn't be home self tests. I do know one of CBSA's issues on resuming Cascades service is they didn't have space or facilities at Vancouver's Pacific Central Station to handle more than a very few people that didn't qualify for entry or had to be referred to secondary inspection. The test was a wild card that caused a lot of people to be ineligible for entry who thought they were okay.
> 
> As I said above, I do not see ArriveCan as an impediment. Now, with dropping the test requirement, it becomes much more cut and dried. ArriveCan V or I result code, you are good. No ArriveCan or other result code, off the train you go. Just like not having a passport. It puts the evaluation in the hands of CBSA with a result can be easily checked by the train crews.
> 
> I think ArriveCan submission is likely to become a permanent. I do not see Canada dropping the vaccination requirement any time in the near future, if ever. And I think they may well keep ArriveCan even if they do eventually drop the vaccination requirement. As far as CBSA is concerned, the more information they have in advance, the better.
> 
> BTW, I've been to Canada twice since the border reopened. ArriveCan is easy to do and quick.
> 
> Now they need to get rid of the silly quarantine "plan" requirement. All that does is encourage fiction writing.


I agree with most everything you said, and it is accurate for American visitors. The variable remains the random (although now free) PCR tests and associated quarantine. This is disproportionately applied to Canadian citizens - particularly couples - returning from US vacations. I personally know several people affected and the process is well-documented on other forums. There are many sitting in multi-day quarantines awaiting test results that take a ridiculous amount of time, and this process is not being removed. The Arrive-Can app will likely remain in-place forever, but is already under court challenge since it discriminates against anyone without a smartphone and data plan - such as many seniors who are less "tech-savvy". I have my next US trip planned and am hoping all this nonsense goes away in the interim.


----------



## mc0621

jiml said:


> I agree with most everything you said, and it is accurate for American visitors. The variable remains the random (although now free) PCR tests and associated quarantine. This is disproportionately applied to Canadian citizens - particularly couples - returning from US vacations. I personally know several people affected and the process is well-documented on other forums. There are many sitting in multi-day quarantines awaiting test results that take a ridiculous amount of time, and this process is not being removed. The Arrive-Can app will likely remain in-place forever, but is already under court challenge since it discriminates against anyone without a smartphone and data plan - such as many seniors who are less "tech-savvy". I have my next US trip planned and am hoping all this nonsense goes away in the interim.



Per the smartphone and data plan: they are not really necessary at the border. As long as you filled ArriveCan, (which can be done before departure on a public computer) the ArriveCan info directly shows up in the border officer's computer when they swipe your passport. That was at least my experience. 

And I agree the random tests could be troublesome.


----------



## Amtrak25

Right now, ArriveCan shows Cantic as a border crossing. I suppose that suffices for LaColle ?


----------



## Bob Dylan

mc0621 said:


> Per the smartphone and data plan: they are not really necessary at the border. As long as you filled ArriveCan, (which can be done before departure on a public computer) the ArriveCan info directly shows up in the border officer's computer when they swipe your passport. That was at least my experience.
> 
> And I agree the random tests could be troublesome.


Remember when NAFTA was going to make it easier to Travel in North America, sort of a Western Hemisphere EU???


----------



## jis

Amtrak25 said:


> Right now, ArriveCan shows Cantic as a border crossing. I suppose that suffices for LaColle ?


The actual checkpost is at the border adjacent to Rouses Point, which strictly speaking is neither LaColle nor Cantic.

The CN line passes through Cantic. The CP line passes through LaColle.

Both are about 2 miles from the border.

Apparently CBSA uses the original checkpost name whereas Amtrak tossed a coin and decided LaColle sounds more Canadian or something  I don't think that anyone that matters is actually confused about which border checkpost it refers to.


----------



## Amtrak25

On the CN, Cantic, where the Vermont line merges, is about 4 miles north of LaColle. I suppose that is where the Montrealer did its Customs business northbound, but I don't remember. On a real map, Lacolle is slightly northwest of Cantic. 

Of course now adays, with a timetable-less Amtrak, no passenger would know to look for either LaColle or Cantic and could screw up. 

You are also supposed to put down expected time of arrival. I guess for Amtrak, that would be 4pm.

I think most passengers will simply put in something for Montreal and at 7pm. I hope that does not cause delays and confusion.


----------



## jis

Amtrak25 said:


> On the CN, Cantic, where the Vermont line merges, is about 4 miles north of LaColle. I suppose that is where the Montrealer did its Customs business northbound, but I don't remember.
> 
> Of course now adays, with a timetable-less Amtrak, no passenger would know to look for either LaColle or Cantic and could screw up.
> 
> You are also supposed to put down expected time of arrival. I guess for Amtrak, that would be 4pm.



I would suggest that one would open up a map and study it carefully


----------



## Amtrak25

People don't know how to read maps anymore, only do what GPS tells them.


----------



## MARC Rider

jis said:


> I would suggest that one would open up a map and study it carefully
> 
> View attachment 27636


Him, from the map, the CBSA seems to be where you would expect it, along Highway 223, but there's a "Douanes Canadienne," (Canadian Customs) that seems to located in the middle of the Richelieu River. Neither the Cardinal nor the Three Musketeers are amused.


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> Him, from the map, the CBSA seems to be where you would expect it, along Highway 223, but there's a "Douanes Canadienne," (Canadian Customs) that seems to located in the middle of the Richelieu River. Neither the Cardinal nor the Three Musketeers are amused.


Yeah, that left me scratching my head, unless there is something to do with some checkpoint for waterborne traffic in some way. But I did not investigate further.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> Remember when NAFTA was going to make it easier to Travel in North America, sort of a Western Hemisphere EU???


I remember NAFTA was mainly about easing import restrictions and speeding up freight and cargo traffic. Visiting Mexico as a tourist is more of a hassle now than before NAFTA but it's still pretty easy. It's really only the CBSA that has ever caused me any problems but I do not think NAFTA is responsible for that.


----------



## thully

How does the random test/quarantine work? I was thinking of doing a trip to Canada from the US to ride VIA (either the corridor to Montreal or the Canadian+Cascades or bus+Empire Builder loop) this summer (particularly now that the test requirement is in effect). From what I understood you could proceed as normal upon entering Canada, and the quarantine was only if your test came back positive (In which case my quarantine plan would be my hotel - figure I’d do a rapid test pre-departure to catch this before I leave home if at all possible). 



jiml said:


> I agree with most everything you said, and it is accurate for American visitors. The variable remains the random (although now free) PCR tests and associated quarantine. This is disproportionately applied to Canadian citizens - particularly couples - returning from US vacations. I personally know several people affected and the process is well-documented on other forums. There are many sitting in multi-day quarantines awaiting test results that take a ridiculous amount of time, and this process is not being removed. The Arrive-Can app will likely remain in-place forever, but is already under court challenge since it discriminates against anyone without a smartphone and data plan - such as many seniors who are less "tech-savvy". I have my next US trip planned and am hoping all this nonsense goes away in the interim.


----------



## JP1822

The whole cross-border "mess" (for the most part) could be a lot smoother if the agencies worked closer together and with better operating rules in place. 

- At one time, I was told a daily manifest of some sort (and realizing last minute bookings can be made) was forwarded to the border patrol folks (excuse the formal title they really have). It was sent at time of the train's departure and then again as train approached noting the changes between the two lists (adds/or subtracts). This was to give a preliminary "heads up" to the border folks. 

- Reservations for crossing the border used to require the giving of one's passport number at time of reservation. Presumably this "info" is part of the manifest info forwarded to the border folks, and hopefully it is reviewed prior to the trip by either Amtrak or border patrol. 

- At major staffed stations along the train's route to the border, there could be (and some stations do this presently) a basic check of person and passport. I even remember being on the Adirondack and occasionally the conductors would do a general "looksie" to ensure passenger, passport, and the cross border form was filled out. 

- If border patrol has a manifest and passport numbers ahead of time, one would think this would be one way to "move things along" - or especially for the Maple Leaf and Adirondack. Match or clear those folks onboard and then focus on last minute reservations, or the changes done in the manifest. 

The Adirondack and Maple Leaf border crossings is a real PIA. Maple Leaf everyone now has to GET OFF the train with luggage and be cleared in the train station at the border. Adirondack they still come onboard - till a pre-clearance and check hub is established at Montreal. Still a long way off. Of all the Canada-US border crossings (of the three) Vancouver, BC border crossing (on the Cascades) is the best and most efficient (done right at the station etc.) It's a good model for the Adirondack to follow. The Maple Leaf is the worst. If some of the other points above are in place do the check and processing onboard. 

In terms of timing - I would think the Cascades route my go first (back in action), followed by Maple Leaf and then Adirondack. Adirondack may take some time to come back just because of getting Amtrak crew re-qualified and familiarized with a route that's not been running for over two years. If Amtrak and Border Control can get everything up and running at same time - GREAT! Maybe - May or June IF COVID regulations can continue to be relaxed (including the wearing of masks and testing etc.). Both VIA and Amtrak need to be on similar pages though. At one time checks were done on the train for Maple Leaf passengers, and just the ones that had to be "re-verified" for one reason or another stepped inside the station for additional inspection/clearing. Hopefully something gets figured out before July 2022.


----------



## Amtrak25

CBSA is determined to kill 60-90 minutes don't matter what. 
Amtrak has been doing qualification runs to Montreal, the last one being around December. 

I have given up any hope of a facility ever getting done in Montreal Central nor a Vermonter extension. The new Quebec government has thrown all plans out and will start from scratch. If they do come up with something again after dragging their feet for a few years, they'll have another election and throw those plans in the garbage as well. This is like a student being a perpetual Freshman. Since Customs is a federal matter, I don't know why the provincial government is involved in the first place, but they clearly haven't any intention of doing anything, and I don't see the PM and MP's lifting a finger either.

I don't care if the Maple Leaf ever comes back. It carries between a van and bus load across the border, and has no measurable impact on its patronage in New York state according to ESPA's documents since truncated. Until federal legislation and treaties are written literally ordering them back on the trains to do their inspections, it is a useless, political train service. Legislators are the ones who should write laws, not an arrogant government bureaucracy. Forget about a Vermonter to Montreal unless that occurs too because they will refuse to do anything onboard at Cantic. 

Come to the realization that the US and Canada are too incompetent and uncivilized to run a pasenger train across the border. Send 63/64 to Erie, build a terminal facility there, and add stations in Dunkirk and Westfield. That would be more beneficial to us and be better patronized than running to Toronto. Run a Thruway bus to Exchange Street and Niagara Falls.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Amtrak25 said:


> Send 63/64 to Erie, build a terminal facility there, and add stations in Dunkirk and Westfield. That would be more beneficial to us and be better patronized than running to Toronto. Run a Thruway bus to Exchange Street and Niagara Falls.


Why not leave 63/64 running to NFL? It is a popular tourist attraction. I agree running to Toronto is probably not worth the hassle.


----------



## jis

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Why not leave 63/64 running to NFL? It is a popular tourist attraction. I agree running to Toronto is probably not worth the hassle.


Well, there already are two other trains that run to Niagara Falls. Opening up a few more cities/towns/areas to train service is better than running one more train to NFL IMHO.

Though I would think that Cleveland would be a better terminal for such an extension, but there is the idiotic PRIIA restriction that comes into play.


----------



## Amtrak25

I would not expect Penn DOT to pay for it. North of Pittsburgh is out of sight and out of mind. Just forget about Ohio. Yes, NYS would pay for something in Pennsylvania, just like NJT paid for a large yard in Morrisville, PA. Though, I don't think Erie would break the bank. But NYS-DOT can be skinflints when they want to be.


----------



## Burns651

Amtrak25 said:


> I don't care if the Maple Leaf ever comes back. It carries between a van and bus load across the border, and has no measurable impact on its patronage in New York state according to ESPA's documents since truncated. Until federal legislation and treaties are written literally ordering them back on the trains to do their inspections, it is a useless, political train service.



Regardless of how infinitesimal its load was, the Maple Leaf is worth bringing back across the border because it was the only train preserving the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge as an active rail line. For the sake of maintaining options for future, more useful cross border trains in an era with more enlightened border staff, there needs to be a passenger train on that bridge again ASAP. Even if it terminates in Niagara Falls ON. A rare luxury of an international crossing that has no freight trains on it can't be frittered away.

The longer that bridge's track stays idle, the harder it will be to being back any service and the more likely it will be that Amtrak will invent some outrageous cost for upgrading the track and rail deck. I can also see people pushing to allow "temporary" highway use of the upper deck.


----------



## jis

Irrespective of whether the Maple Leaf consist is re routed or a separate frequency is run, a day train from New York on the Water Level Route beyond Buffalo is a good idea.


----------



## jiml

Burns651 said:


> Regardless of how infinitesimal its load was, the Maple Leaf is worth bringing back across the border because it was the only train preserving the Rainbow Bridge as an active rail line. For the sake of maintaining options for future, more useful cross border trains in an era with more enlightened border staff, there needs to be a passenger train on that bridge again ASAP. Even if it terminates in Niagara Falls ON. A rare luxury of an international crossing that has no freight trains on it can't be frittered away.
> 
> The longer that bridge's track stays idle, the harder it will be to being back any service and the more likely it will be that Amtrak will invent some outrageous cost for upgrading the track and rail deck. I can also see people pushing to allow "temporary" highway use of the upper deck.


It is the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge - not the Rainbow, and the whole line on the Canadian side doesn't see much freight traffic any longer. Prior to the pandemic a lot of money was spent upgrading the bridge and GO Transit's parent Metrolinx was looking to purchase a good part of the line from CN. They had great plans, which may have made the Maple Leaf redundant. GO service has struggled to return everywhere, with this route being no exception with its weekends-only service.


----------



## Amtrak25

The basic flaw in VIA Rail service is there is no equivalency of 403b (Provincial support). GO Transit is slowly creeping into VIA's turf to Niagara Falls and London via Stratford since it is provincially subsidized. But it is still a long trip on commuter equipment with such seating, no food service, and awkward luggage storage. Why not simply have Ontario pay VIA to run the service ? Use LRC's or HEP-II's when Siemens Venture coaches replace them. Of course, there is also Ontario Northland. 

But unlike Amtrak, VIA Rail simply exists - at the pleasure of the PM, without legislation. Over the last 35 years, both Conservative and Liberal governments have hovered over VIA with an ice pick, while one party criticizes the other for doing so before taking the majority, then follow suit when they get elected. 

As far as VIA is concerned, Trudeau is no more aware of Canada's existence west of Toronto than Harper or Campbell, though seemed to get a breather with Cretchin.


----------



## jiml

Ontario does have some interesting "new" equipment (okay, refurbished), that may be the template for longer distance services, including food-service cars.


----------



## Amtrak25

Some of those are committed to neo-Northlander service, now destined for Timmins, as opposed to Cochrane, but it seems not until 2025. The food service cars have Amtrak heritage lounge car interiors down the finest details, brown tweed carpets up the walls et al. They must have raided Beech Grove for the parts and plans. 

I rode these ex-GO carts 4 times in the 2000's to both North Bay and Cochrane. Over 30MPH, they rattle your teeth and vibrate your kidneys, but there is only so much you can do to TTC subway car trucks with 6' wheelbase. I hope they have since repaired their suspension systems. Those cars are 55-year-old, however. 

Now if someone would just show some interest in restoring the ACR local to Hearst. 3 ex-Amtrak Heritage coaches of ATSF ancestry, possibly the ones butchered for Clocker service, are ready and waiting.


----------



## Willbridge

Amtrak25 said:


> The basic flaw in VIA Rail service is there is no equivalency of 403b (Provincial support). GO Transit is slowly creeping into VIA's turf to Niagara Falls and London via Stratford since it is provincially subsidized. But it is still a long trip on commuter equipment with such seating, no food service, and awkward luggage storage. Why not simply have Ontario pay VIA to run the service ? Use LRC's or HEP-II's when Siemens Venture coaches replace them. Of course, there is also Ontario Northland.
> 
> But unlike Amtrak, VIA Rail simply exists - at the pleasure of the PM, without legislation. Over the last 35 years, both Conservative and Liberal governments have hovered over VIA with an ice pick, while one party criticizes the other for doing so before taking the majority, then follow suit when they get elected.
> 
> As far as VIA is concerned, Trudeau is no more aware of Canada's existence west of Toronto than Harper or Campbell, though seemed to get a breather with Cretchin.


One thing that provincial transport planners share with U.S. state counterparts is the lack of transparency in the "national" rail systems' finance and accounting. It is hard for advocates to lobby at the provincial/state level when the only way of estimating costs is by inference from past projects or other projects.


----------



## GoAmtrak

Quotes from users like Amtrak25 are somewhat alarming for me. It should be no question if every single border-crossing rail service should return, but just when. It should happen as soon as possible.

Europe did never completely stop running trains across borders. They were just temporarily reduced, for about SIX MONTHS (at best). They were reduced, not cancelled or suspended. The Adirondack, the Cascades and the Maple Leaf are suspended for TWO YEARS now. How is that possible?

This enduring suspension is unacceptable. I would like to see how the government would react if airports or highways would be blocked for about two years 

What does the Canadian government say about it? When will service be back to normal? Do they care? Or are they still afraid of Corona? It's so annoying they don't move forward for such a long time.


----------



## jis

GoAmtrak said:


> Quotes from users like Amtrak25 are somewhat alarming for me. It should be no question every single service should return as soon as possible, not if it should return.
> 
> Europe did never completely stop running trains across borders. They were just temporarily reduced, for about 6 months. The Adirondack, the Cascades and the Maple Leaf are suspended for TWO YEARS now. How is that possible? Strange priorities? Cultural backwardness?
> 
> This enduring suspension is not unacceptable. I would like to see how the government would react if airports or highways would be blocked for about two years


Why is it surprising to learn that these services are really not as critical as air and road? To boot none of those are funded by the US federal government either!

BTW, you have an unintended double negative in the last paragraph I think.


----------



## GoAmtrak

jis said:


> Why is it surprising to learn that these services are really not as critical as air and road? To boot none of those are funded by the US federal government either!
> 
> BTW, you have an unintended double negative in the last paragraph I think.


Yes, you are right with my double negative, I fixed it. Thank you.

I don't think it's surprising, but it just shows that the political weight of passenger railway isn't like it should be and isn't like in most civilized countries all over the world. Passenger rail is still too often treated like a touristy curiosity in North America. In Western Europe, streets, airports and passenger railway are equally critical.

What makes it worse for me is that I don't have the impression things getter better for Via Rail (as others also already mentioned). For Amtrak, there are/were more news about service resumptions and service expansion.

I hope to see a return of those border-crossing services.


----------



## Amtrak25

GoAmtrak said:


> Quotes from users like Amtrak25 are somewhat alarming for me. It should be no question if every single border-crossing rail service should return, but just when. It should happen as soon as possible.
> 
> Europe did never completely stop running trains across borders. They were just temporarily reduced, for about SIX MONTHS (at best). They were reduced, not cancelled or suspended. The Adirondack, the Cascades and the Maple Leaf are suspended for TWO YEARS now. How is that possible?
> 
> This enduring suspension is not unacceptable. I would like to see how the government would react if airports or highways would be blocked for about two years
> 
> What does the Canadian government say about it? When will service be back to normal? Do they care? Or are they still afraid of Corona? It's so annoying they don't move forward for such a long time.



What is it you find "alarming" ? Are we supposed to support every passenger service there ever was regardless of its usage and institutional shabby treatment of passengers ? 

The US and Canada are not like the European Union, and never will be. We have a real international border and unchecked Customs theatre, while no politician in either country nor any passenger rail advocacy group seems the least bit interested in changing these procedures. 

As long as Customs refuse to board trains to do their work, the Maple Leaf will remain a dog, the Vermonter extension won't happen, nor will Detroit/Windsor. I know Michigan ARP likes to draw pretty maps in the newsletter (I get them via snail-mail), but they completely avoid the Customs issue.

The International was killed for a reason. It morphed into the Blue Water in the US, and will morph into several GO Transit trains east of London in Canada. Transport Canada is not interested in any VIA Rail service west of Toronto, except to Windsor via Bayview Jct, regardless of whether Liberals or Conservatives are in charge. 

That's the reality. Life is not fair. It does not matter what goes on in Europe, Asia, or on our highways and airports.


----------



## zephyr17

All the cross border services are sponsored and funded by the respective states, per the PRIIA Act of 2008 no federal funds should be involved since all three are less than 750 miles. Washington and New York pay the entire nut to Vancouver and Montreal, respectively, no support from Canada at all. NY pays for the Maple Leaf as far as Niagara Falls, ON. VIA pays for Niagara Falls-Toronto. I don't know their funding model, but doubt it involves the province.

Washington DOT badly wants the Cascades back. My understanding is the hang up is with COVID border procedures. I hope Canada's recent dropping of the testing requirement may help expedite the services' return. In any case, in the Cascades case the fact service has not yet resumed is not a lack of funds or will on the sponsoring agency's part. It is pretty much CBSA and CBP that are in the way, plus possibly Amtrak equipment and staffing issues.

General rants comparing services in the US and Canada to Europe are less than helpful. The funding, politics, rail infrastructure and other factors (Schengen Agreement open borders versus a fully controlled international border) are wildly different. It is not like comparing apples and oranges, at least both are fruit. It is more like comparing apples and asparagus. Personally, I prefer discussions that center around practically achievable goals within the real context rather than "Europe does this, we should" impossible blather.

I am particularly concerned we don't lose ground. I am highly confident that the Cascades to Vancouver will return in the fairly near future, it has funding and strong political support, as well as having had strong patronage, by far the most popular of the cross border services. I fear for the Maple Leaf. I don't know VIA's position on the train, but with GO/Metrolinx poised to increase Toronto-Niagara Falls rail service, I am afraid VIA may just say "fine, you do it" and the lightly patronized international service across the Whirlpool Bridge will never return.


----------



## thully

On that note from a Michigan perspective - while I’d love for the proposed Detroit-Toronto service to actually happen, at this point I’m just hoping the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel Bus gets restored. Since the Tunnel Bus shut down due to COVID in 2020 and Greyhound Canada ceased operations, there has been no way to cross the Detroit-Windsor border without a car. The new Gordie Howe bridge is supposed to have pedestrian/bike access, though it’s unclear how transit-accessible that will be. Last I heard the testing requirement was the main holdup - hoping that going away means they bring it back soon. Though I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t happen for whatever reason (or just use COVID as an excuse to kill it).


----------



## Amtrak25

zephyr17 said:


> I am particularly concerned we don't lose ground. I am highly confident that the Cascades to Vancouver will return in the fairly near future, it has funding and strong political support, as well as having had strong patronage, by far the most popular of the cross border services. I fear for the Maple Leaf. I don't know VIA's position on the train, but with GO/Metrolinx poised to increase Toronto-Niagara Falls rail service, I am afraid VIA may just say "fine, you do it" and the lightly patronized international service across the Whirlpool Bridge will never return.



GO Transit T&E crews could conceivably operate the Maple Leaf instead of VIA Rail, and have Amtrak handle all international reservations and ticketing. From a passenger's perspective, they wouldn't notice any difference, except a disabled cafe car. 

If not, Whirlpool Bridge will stand as a symbol, or dunce cap, of two allegedly friendly, advanced countries that are too incompetent, lazy, and arrogant to run a passenger rail service across the border efficiently. It was easier to run trains and the Berlin subway through the Iron Curtain than this nonsense. For that I blame the Trudeau government about their attiitude issues with VIA Rail and both countries on their Customs theatre.


----------



## jiml

GoAmtrak said:


> What does the Canadian government say about it? When will service be back to normal? Do they care? Or are they still afraid of Corona? It's so annoying they don't move forward for such a long time.


What makes you think the Canadian government even knows these trains exist? That's perhaps an exaggeration, but they are likely so far down the priority list at the federal level that their resumption (or lack of) is simply a footnote on some report. The pressure to restore will come from local and regional authorities - not the federal level in either country. Washington State and British Columbia "do their own thing" on many issues, which is why most think this service will resume first - and soon.


----------



## neroden

NY and Ontario definitely both want the Maple Leaf back. I fully expect it to come back. People from Toronto like to go to NYC, people from NYC like to go to Toronto.

The problems with the Adirondack (and the Vermonter) are down to blase attitudes in Quebec; both NY and Vermont want service. I don't know what the heck is going on in Quebec, but their recent rail plans have shown total disregard to any sort of intercity service whatsoever, so that makes me pessimistic.


----------



## Amtrak25

VIA Rail doesn't operate the Adirondack, only services it in Montreal train yard. Quebec's attitude about the station's future customs facility should not have anything to do with blocking the Adirondack's return. The federal government runs Customs. Quebec has nothing to do with it, though I don't get why they have anything to do with constructing a facility in Gare Central, but that is irrelevant for now. 

Maple Leaf is caught up in VIA's politics and unwillingness to run west of Toronto, and I suspect will take longer. It carries far fewer people across the border than the Adirondack does.


----------



## zephyr17

Tiny, tiny information point. I just completed my ArriveCan for my Thruway/Cantrail trip to Vancouver on Friday. Pacific Central Station is now in the Port of Entry selection. I have used ArriveCan twice before, in December and January, and don't recall having seen it then.

Of course, I selected Pacific Highway where buses cross, though.


----------



## Arctifox

Amtrak25 said:


> The US and Canada are not like the European Union, and never will be. We have a real international border and unchecked Customs theatre, while no politician in either country nor any passenger rail advocacy group seems the least bit interested in changing these procedures.
> 
> ...
> 
> That's the reality. Life is not fair. It does not matter what goes on in Europe, Asia, or on our highways and airports.



This attitude "it does not matter how it's done in other places" is an attitude that I see so frequently here in the US and I find shocking and disappointing. Why does it not matter? Why is there this general assumption that it is not possible to learn from other experiences even if they might not transfer 1:1?

Yes, international travel in the EU is something different than between the US and Canada - however, 2015 and 2020 have shown that there is some flexibility (border checks, entrance requirements) on living without a border. But okay, let's instead look at other countries that also have a "real" border. The Eurostar trains are running again between the UK and the EU. The Allegro trains between Russia and Finland are running even though Russia considers Finland an "unfriendly country".


----------



## zephyr17

Arctifox said:


> This attitude "it does not matter how it's done in other places" is an attitude that I see so frequently here in the US and I find shocking and disappointing. Why does it not matter? Why is there this general assumption that it is not possible to learn from other experiences even if they might not transfer 1:1?
> 
> Yes, international travel in the EU is something different than between the US and Canada - however, 2015 and 2020 have shown that there is some flexibility (border checks, entrance requirements) on living without a border. But okay, let's instead look at other countries that also have a "real" border. The Eurostar trains are running again between the UK and the EU. The Allegro trains between Russia and Finland are running even though Russia considers Finland an "unfriendly country".


Circumstances in Europe's government owned, passenger oriented infrastructure are vastly different than North America's privately owned heavy freight infrastructure with significant rail industry as well as political resistance to passenger service. Passenger service that also unfortunately has a very small share of the intercity travel market, so the constituency is likewise small. 

Those realities have to be acknowledged and taken into account when discussing improvements to passenger services that are actually achievable.


----------



## neroden

Amtrak25 said:


> VIA Rail doesn't operate the Adirondack, only services it in Montreal train yard. Quebec's attitude about the station's future customs facility should not have anything to do with blocking the Adirondack's return. The federal government runs Customs. Quebec has nothing to do with it, though I don't get why they have anything to do with constructing a facility in Gare Central, but that is irrelevant for now.



Because the Canadian federal government won't pay for anything (never has), and the US states are largely not allowed to pay for things on the other side of the border.

Ontario and Toronto have proven willing to pay for facilities for intercity trains.

Quebec and Montreal have not, and Quebec actually had to be dragged kicking and screaming to leave room for VIA Rail in Central Station during their big "REM" automated-metro plans. The first version of the plan just kicked VIA out entirely. Although this was remedied, the plan did eliminate VIA's proposal to come in on the north side of the river, too.


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## Amtrak25

EXO owns the last mile of track into Montreal Central, and Amtrak has to negotiate a new operating contract.

CN has reportedly let the track deteriorate north of Rousses Pt over the last two years in Amtrak's absense, which means an indefinite delay for the Adirondack to come back.


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## fdaley

Amtrak25 said:


> Maple Leaf is caught up in VIA's politics and unwillingness to run west of Toronto, and I suspect will take longer. It carries far fewer people across the border than the Adirondack does.



I haven't seen any recent figures, but I can recall a number of cross-border trips in years/decades past (i.e., 1980s-90s and onward) when it seemed to me that the Maple Leaf was carrying the heavier load. Has it lost a lot of cross-border ridership since it switched to having everyone detrain at the border?


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## Amtrak25

fdaley said:


> I haven't seen any recent figures, but I can recall a number of cross-border trips in years/decades past (i.e., 1980s-90s and onward) when it seemed to me that the Maple Leaf was carrying the heavier load. Has it lost a lot of cross-border ridership since it switched to having everyone detrain at the border?



Yes, everything changed since detraining with luggage in each direction, VIA Rail cutting its other frequency, and the extremely high jump in through fares once in Ontario, VIA Rail's attempt to compensate for its poor riderhip. 

I last looked at a VIA Rail annual report about 4 or 5 years ago. Taking that route's (with one frequency) annual ridership and dividing by trains per year, it came out to 43 per trip (international + domestic). It was also one of the financially worst performing trains in the entire VIA Rail system, ballpark with Quebec remote trains. 

Amtrak website doesn't show state facts sheets for Ontario and Quebec, but from my expereince, every Adirondack load into Montreal (there is no domestic Canadian travel) is in the 121 - 144 range, that number I hear the conductors speak over the radio through my scanner. They are spread through 3 coaches, on each side of the dinette.


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## fdaley

Amtrak25 said:


> Yes, everything changed since detraining with luggage in each direction, VIA Rail cutting its other frequency, and the extremely high jump in through fares once in Ontario, VIA Rail's attempt to compensate for its poor riderhip.
> 
> I last looked at a VIA Rail annual report about 4 or 5 years ago. Taking that route's (with one frequency) annual ridership and dividing by trains per year, it came out to 43 per trip (international + domestic). It was also one of the financially worst performing trains in the entire VIA Rail system, ballpark with Quebec remote trains.
> 
> Amtrak website doesn't show state facts sheets for Ontario and Quebec, but from my expereince, every Adirondack load into Montreal (there is no domestic Canadian travel) is in the 121 - 144 range, that number I hear the conductors speak over the radio through my scanner. They are spread through 3 coaches, on each side of the dinette.



It makes sense to me that the schlep-your-luggage-into-the-station drill would drive away business. It might be tolerable for younger adults going on a weekend trip with a backpack and/or a small roller bag. But it's really a hardship for families with children, older folks and those with limited mobility, and anyone with luggage enough for a two- or three-week vacation. (My family's trips typically include two or three of these categories, so I made a note to myself to steer clear of the Maple Leaf after we had to haul ourselves and our stuff off for customs at NFL in 2017.) Even so, I'm surprised the ridership would have fallen so dramatically so quickly.

I did notice when I booked a solo trip a few years back that I could save more than $30 US by booking an Amtrak ticket to NFO and a separate VIA ticket from there to Toronto rather than paying the Amtrak through fare.

The growth of the through traffic on the Adirondack has been impressive and I think was under way for quite a few years before the Maple Leaf customs changes. I can remember some trips in the early '90s when there were only a couple dozen of us crossing into Canada after all the SUNY students detrained at Plattsburgh.


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## v v

Is there any concrete news as to if and when the Adirondack will start operations again? For example has Amtrak set a date?

Ta


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## zephyr17

v v said:


> Is there any concrete news as to if and when the Adirondack will start operations again? For example has Amtrak set a date?
> 
> Ta


No concrete news on any of the cross border services. Dead silence.


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## Amtrak25

v v said:


> Is there any concrete news as to if and when the Adirondack will start operations again? For example has Amtrak set a date?
> 
> Ta



No, from an ESPA official, because:

1) deteriorated track conditions on CN north of Cantic, taking full advantage of not hosting Amtrak for two years by significantly reducing maintenance and maximum authorized speeds. 

(By 2019, it was already 49MPH max, and 30MPH on jointed rail portions.) 

2) need for Amtrak to negotiate a new operating agreement with EXO, the owner of the last mile of track into Central Station. 

Sounds too much like another Sunset-East or Montrealer situation.

Toronto service would likely come back first despite VIA Rail's lack of enthusiasm.


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## v v

Not what we wanted to hear after reading Amtrak's message on their route guide, but thanks zephyr17 and Amtrak25 for the detailed info.


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## John Bredin

Amtrak25 said:


> No, from an ESPA official, because:
> 
> 1) deteriorated track conditions on CN north of Cantic, taking full advantage of not hosting Amtrak for two years by significantly reducing maintenance and maximum authorized speeds.
> 
> (By 2019, it was already 49MPH max, and 30MPH on jointed rail portions.)
> 
> 2) need for Amtrak to negotiate a new operating agreement with EXO, the owner of the last mile of track into Central Station.
> 
> Sounds too much like another Sunset-East or Montrealer situation.
> 
> Toronto service would likely come back first despite VIA Rail's lack of enthusiasm.


Both points concern restoring the _Adirondack_ to Montreal, but the train also served various stations in New York (it's named for a region and state park in New York, not for its Canadian destination like the _Maple Leaf_ or old _International_) that would presumably be popular with summer tourists from the NYC area. As I recall, New York State paid for the _Adirondack_, why not one train a day to, umm, the Adirondacks?


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## MARC Rider

John Bredin said:


> Both points concern restoring the _Adirondack_ to Montreal, but the train also served various stations in New York (it's named for a region and state park in New York, not for its Canadian destination like the _Maple Leaf_ or old _International_) that would presumably be popular with summer tourists from the NYC area. As I recall, New York State paid for the _Adirondack_, why not one train a day to, umm, the Adirondacks?


It seems logical that they could run it to Plattsburgh even now without the cross-border service. I can only surmise that there's no place to turn the train in Plattsburgh. I suppose they could run it in a push-pull configuration, but I guess there might be a shortage of cab cars available. Aside from Plattsburgh there aren't a whole lot of population centers north of Saratoga Springs, and it looks like there are enough side tracks around Saratoga Springs to run the locomotives around the train. There's even a wye a little south of the station (at least from Google Maps). They could at least run a truncated train to Saratoga Springs, which would improve frequency pf service both there and in Schenectady.


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## Amtrak25

There is no place to relay a train between Saratoga Springs and Montreal, CP won't let them linger for a couple of hours in a passing sidings, and NYS-DOT seems uninterested in even running it that far, content with the 3 hour gap in NYC-Albany service. 75% of the ridership north of Albany is headed for Montreal, complete opposite circumstance than the Maple Leaf. 

Only 2 people at DOT are assigned to Amtrak. It's not very important to them.

The train rename was political, being the former D&H "Laurentian", better to name the train after the same mountain range in NYS. 

Only remedy I see is to reroute back onto the CP from Rousses Pt to Lucien L'allier. It already has EXO commuter trains from Candiac, leaving a 32 mile gap. Then there would be halfway decent track to a crappy terminal, rather than crappy track to a nice terminal. If Amtrak is having such a nice relationship with CP right now, they ought to try that.


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## jis

Didn’t they do a test run on CP a few years back?


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## Amtrak25

jis said:


> Didn’t they do a test run on CP a few years back?



I never heard of that, but it easily could happen without my knowledge. 

What I was told by someone in ESPA about 10 years ago is FRA would not permit it since the rail is old, ignoring the fact that multiple rush hour EXO commuter trains and CP freights use it without incident. I rode one down to the Exporail in 2016 (with their version of NJT Comet cars - but shiny and immaculate). There is jointed rail, but they get up a good head of steam nonetheless.


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## jiml

jis said:


> Didn’t they do a test run on CP a few years back?


Yes.


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## jiml

The advantage of using VIA's central station for the Adirondack over CP's Windsor (now EXO commuter) is simply infrastructure and connections. Anyone who's been to both knows they are in easy walking distance of each other, but Lucien L'allier has little to offer long-distance passengers. Not saying that couldn't be provided, but would need funding (by the same authorities who haven't paid for the Customs facility in Gare Centrale).


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## Amtrak25

Lucien L'allier would just be an open air facility like St Lambert with no amenities, and a rather lonely place on weekends, something like Hoboken. I don't think anyone would object to running an Amtrak train to Hoboken today. I'll take that over taking the Dog to their bus terminal. 

They could also add an intermediate stop at Montreal West or Vendome, the latter having an easier transfer situation to the subway with less twisting and turning through various passageways, stairs, and doors than at Gare Central. 

There would be the issue of being on EXO platforms within their paid fare zone without one of their validated tickets.

I am sure there is no one on any railroad who once worked Amtrak to Windsor station until the mid 1980's. I don't remember if Amtrak was crewing their trains, or was D&H's. So now, either the Amtrak crew would have to qualify for the route, or do a crew change at Rousses Pt and get a CP crew who is qualified on passenger trains, or a Bombardier/EXO crew with CP heritage who is already qualifed on that trackage and is passenger train or HEP certified.


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## Willbridge

Amtrak25 said:


> Lucien L'allier would just be an open air facility like St Lambert with no amenities, and a rather lonely place on weekends, something like Hoboken. I don't think anyone would object to running an Amtrak train to Hoboken today. I'll take that over taking the Dog to their bus terminal.
> 
> They could also add an intermediate stop at Montreal West or Vendome, the latter having an easier transfer situation to the subway with less twisting and turning through various passageways, stairs, and doors than at Gare Central.
> 
> There would be the issue of being on EXO platforms within their paid fare zone without one of their validated tickets.
> 
> I am sure there is no one on any railroad who once worked Amtrak to Windsor station until the mid 1980's. I don't remember if Amtrak was crewing their trains, or was D&H's. So now, either the Amtrak crew would have to qualify for the route, or do a crew change at Rousses Pt and get a CP crew who is qualified on passenger trains, or a Bombardier/EXO crew with CP heritage who is already qualifed on that trackage and is passenger train or HEP certified.


I visited Windsor Station in 1999. Has it been changed since then?


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## jis

There is no Windsor station. It is Lucien L’Alier or something like that.


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## Amtrak25

And also cut back by a block or so, something like La Salle Street Station in Chicago.


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## slasher-fun

It was named Windsor until 2001, then renamed Lucien L'Allier.


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## toddinde

Amtrak25 said:


> No, from an ESPA official, because:
> 
> 1) deteriorated track conditions on CN north of Cantic, taking full advantage of not hosting Amtrak for two years by significantly reducing maintenance and maximum authorized speeds.
> 
> (By 2019, it was already 49MPH max, and 30MPH on jointed rail portions.)
> 
> 2) need for Amtrak to negotiate a new operating agreement with EXO, the owner of the last mile of track into Central Station.
> 
> Sounds too much like another Sunset-East or Montrealer situation.
> 
> Toronto service would likely come back first despite VIA Rail's lack of enthusiasm.


This is something all advocates need to hear. When you lose a train, it may be gone forever or a really long time. Rock Island Quad Cities Rocket ended in 1978. We may get service back in a couple years. North Coast Hiawatha ended in 1979. It may come back in a few years.


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## jiml

slasher-fun said:


> It was named Windsor until 2001, then renamed Lucien L'Allier.


Part of the former station was taken to construct the Centre Bell (Montreal Canadiens arena) and the platforms were shortened, but it's the same tracks in the same general location. There was a big push to purge English names twenty years ago, so no more Windsor.


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## Amtrak25

From Wikipedia: Lucien L'Allier (1909 - 1978) was a Canadian engineer who is best known for having built the Montreal Metro, the city's subway system.

Looking at Google Satellite, it looks like an EXO switcher engine would have to haul the train back and forth to and from Montreal West's yard for servicing and wying, unless Amtrak were to top and tail it. The station is set up only for push-pull operation. I don't know what it was like when Amtrak ran there 40 years ago.


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## fdaley

jiml said:


> Part of the former station was taken to construct the Centre Bell (Montreal Canadiens arena) and the platforms were shortened, but it's the same tracks in the same general location. There was a big push to purge English names twenty years ago, so no more Windsor.



If you get off the train at Lucien L'Allier and bear to the right inside the station, you can follow an indoor passageway through the ground level of the arena and wind up in the old concourse of Windsor Station before heading outside, which is what I usually do if I come in on the Candiac line on day trips from northern NY. So it kind of still is Windsor Station, except with a longer hike from the train.


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## zephyr17

toddinde said:


> This is something all advocates need to hear. When you lose a train, it may be gone forever or a really long time. Rock Island Quad Cities Rocket ended in 1978. We may get service back in a couple years. North Coast Hiawatha ended in 1979. It may come back in a few years.


Emphasis on "may".


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## Devil's Advocate

jiml said:


> There was a big push to purge English names twenty years ago, so no more Windsor.


There are many words that look and sound similar in both languages but instead they choose a name that would confuse almost any anglophone. I doubt this is an accident since Quebec does not seem to view language as a means of productive communication so much as a tool for cultural dominance.


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## slasher-fun

jiml said:


> Part of the former station was taken to construct the Centre Bell (Montreal Canadiens arena) and the platforms were shortened, but it's the same tracks in the same general location. There was a big push to purge English names twenty years ago, so no more Windsor.


Gare Windsor still exists at its initial location. The new station has been renamed gare Lucien L'Allier to prevent confusion between the two.


Devil's Advocate said:


> There are many words that look and sound similar in both languages but instead they choose a name that would confuse almost any anglophone. I doubt this is an accident since Quebec does not seem to view language as a means of productive communication so much as a tool for cultural dominance.


How would "Lucien L'Allier" confuse any anglophone?
Cultural dominance? Because a province of 7M French speaking Quebecers (85% of the population), surrounded by ~250M English speaking North-Americans, is using the name of someone of its own culture?


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## Devil's Advocate

slasher-fun said:


> How would "Lucien L'Allier" confuse any anglophone?


Confuse as in they would not be able to pronounce it if read or spell it if heard.



slasher-fun said:


> Cultural dominance? Because a province of 7M French speaking Quebecers (85% of the population), surrounded by ~250M English speaking North-Americans, is using the name of someone of its own culture?


If Texas went on a cultural cleansing spree that aggressively sanitized Spanish names and pushed English on everyone I would mock those moves as well.


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## Mailliw

You're comparing apples to oranges. A better anology would be if history played out differently and Texas was the sole majority Anglophone state in Mexico.


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## jiml

slasher-fun said:


> Gare Windsor still exists at its initial location. The new station has been renamed gare Lucien L'Allier to prevent confusion between the two.


Well, not exactly. Yes, the exterior still exists because of heritage designation (what the British would call "listed"), but it's a Cadillac-Fairview office building - not a train station (unless you count the subway in the basement). Some locals refer to it as "Place Windsor", with only the older generation still calling it Windsor Station. Here is a condensed version of what happened from Wikipedia:
_In 1993, construction began on the Molson Centre (now Bell Centre), a hockey arena to replace the Montreal Forum. The arena site was located immediately west of Windsor Station on the trackage which served the station platforms, resulting in the historic station being severed from the rail network. The Molson Centre opened its doors on March 16, 1996, and the new Lucien-L'Allier Station was opened at the western end of the arena structure to replace the now-closed suburban train terminal at Windsor Station. Until 2001, the new train station was called Terminus Windsor, but this was changed to reduce confusion with the original station building and to indicate a link to the Lucien-L'Allier metro (subway) station which is below the station building. It is still possible to walk through the Bell Centre to connect with Windsor Station and the Lucien L'Allier metro station._


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## MARC Rider

jiml said:


> Part of the former station was taken to construct the Centre Bell (Montreal Canadiens arena) and the platforms were shortened, but it's the same tracks in the same general location. There was a big push to purge English names twenty years ago, so no more Windsor.


Wait, "Centre Bell" doesn't sound very French to me. So it seems they purged "Gare Windsor" and replaced it with "Centre Bell."
But just as my Latin teacher taught us that French was basically bad Latin, I suppose English is just bad French, with a few germanic anglo-saxon words thrown in as a sop to the losers of the Battle of Hastings.


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## jpakala

If it weren't for immigrants from various parts of the world, Quebec might well not still be part of Canada. (It was their votes that prevented it years back, to the provincial leadership's consternation.) Even McGill University has had some struggles owing to the milieu. "English Canada" meanwhile is deep into First Nations promotion, such as inviting an official such greeter (in tribal dress) for the opening plenary session at a conference in Vancouver we attended a few years ago, and at conference luncheons in Ontario having the master of ceremonies always begin with a list of tribes' names whose land we were on. (I don't know whether that occurs in Quebec or Newfoundland or other places.)


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## Devil's Advocate

Mailliw said:


> You're comparing apples to oranges. A better anology would be if history played out differently and Texas was the sole majority Anglophone state in Mexico.


If Texas were ever allowed to actually secede it would probably be annexed by Mexico, in which case it could sanction Spanish as the official language with English names being sanitized. You have to love this kind of mindset though. "Our cultural identity is the very best, but it's also not strong enough to survive on its own merits, so we had to pass government mandated protections to save it."


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## Willbridge

jiml said:


> Well, not exactly. Yes, the exterior still exists because of heritage designation (what the British would call "listed"), but it's a Cadillac-Fairview office building - not a train station (unless you count the subway in the basement). Some locals refer to it as "Place Windsor", with only the older generation still calling it Windsor Station. Here is a condensed version of what happened from Wikipedia:
> _In 1993, construction began on the Molson Centre (now Bell Centre), a hockey arena to replace the Montreal Forum. The arena site was located immediately west of Windsor Station on the trackage which served the station platforms, resulting in the historic station being severed from the rail network. The Molson Centre opened its doors on March 16, 1996, and the new Lucien-L'Allier Station was opened at the western end of the arena structure to replace the now-closed suburban train terminal at Windsor Station. Until 2001, the new train station was called Terminus Windsor, but this was changed to reduce confusion with the original station building and to indicate a link to the Lucien-L'Allier metro (subway) station which is below the station building. It is still possible to walk through the Bell Centre to connect with Windsor Station and the Lucien L'Allier metro station._


I took the photo that shows the name "Terminus Windsor" over the street entrance in 1999. As I recall, _Lucien-L'Allier Station _was already the name of the Metro station, and it did strike me as being confusing to customers. At that time, the Metro planners and the commuter rail operators weren't on the same page.

Here are pictures of the 1999 old and new. My favorite is the taxis waiting at the old station. I saw this phenomenon in West Berlin, too. In a big city, once you get a cab zone established, never give it up, even if there are no trains.


The CP war memorial was English only.


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## jiml

MARC Rider said:


> Wait, "Centre Bell" doesn't sound very French to me. So it seems they purged "Gare Windsor" and replaced it with "Centre Bell."


As stated in the Wikipedia article, it was the Molson Centre originally - renamed to the Bell Centre when naming rights were sold. Of course in the politically correct world that has to be Centre Bell with the noun first to be accurate in French. Molson still owns the hockey team. 



MARC Rider said:


> But just as my Latin teacher taught us that French was basically bad Latin


Wait, we had the same Latin teacher? Even though it was 50 years ago, I remember a version of that statement like it was yesterday.


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## jiml

Just to bring this thread back on-topic, count me in favor of routing the Adirondack back onto its original CP trackage into Gare _Lucien-L'Allier._ It won't happen, but it would work. Connecting passengers (if they exist) would have a 2-block underground walk to Gare Centrale. It's not like they have to re-clear security or anything.


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## MARC Rider

jiml said:


> Just to bring this thread back on-topic, count me in favor of routing the Adirondack back onto its original CP trackage into Gare _Lucien-L'Allier._ It won't happen, but it would work. Connecting passengers (if they exist) would have a 2-block underground walk to Gare Centrale. It's not like they have to re-clear security or anything.


Certainly, if I were riding up to Montreal on the Adirondack and connecting to a VIA train, I wouldn't do it the day of my arrival, anyway, considering that the Adirondack, if it's on time, gets into Montreal in the evening. If I was connecting in the other direction, the VIA connecting train would have to get into Montreal pretty early to allow one to make the Adirondack's early departure. Thus, the only thing I would need in Montreal is a taxi/Uber to my hotel.


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## jpakala

This is an update it seems . . .
Amtrak Unlimited Forum group
Dan Peacock · t1026gp4h11r0e8hd49 · 
https://montrealgazette.com/.../quebec-budget-2022-1m-to... Canada recently committed $1 million for a Pre-Clearance Facility Feasibility Study at the Montreal Central Station to allow easier assess from NY and VT to Eastern Canada. Eventually, an actual facility could spur travel to Canada not only from NY's Adirondack but from VT's Vermonter and NY/VT's Ethan Allen Express, which will be extended from Rutland to Burlington in July 2022.


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## Willbridge

MARC Rider said:


> Certainly, if I were riding up to Montreal on the Adirondack and connecting to a VIA train, I wouldn't do it the day of my arrival, anyway, considering that the Adirondack, if it's on time, gets into Montreal in the evening. If I was connecting in the other direction, the VIA connecting train would have to get into Montreal pretty early to allow one to make the Adirondack's early departure. Thus, the only thing I would need in Montreal is a taxi/Uber to my hotel.


The reason I posted the photos is that I was struck by the irony of the second best station in Montreal being better situated and more attractive than many of the stations in North America that claim to have train service. It's a good point about the overnight stay, as the _Cavalier _to Toronto is not on the overnight run.

I wonder if the taxis are still waiting for the _Adirondack _to arrive?


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## slasher-fun

Devil's Advocate said:


> Confuse as in they would not be able to pronounce it if read or spell it if heard.


Surprising to hear. But still, I don't think that places should have in mind "accomodating English only-speaking people" when deciding on how to name a place.


Devil's Advocate said:


> If Texas went on a cultural cleansing spree that aggressively sanitized Spanish names and pushed English on everyone I would mock those moves as well.


Two things come to my mind when I read this:
- Montréal deciding to name a new train station with a different name than the old one (that still exists, although it's not a train station anymore) is not "cultural cleansing". Gare Lucien L'Allier has the same name than Lucien L'Allier metro station, and they're located next to Rue Lucien L'Allier. Gare Windsor still exists, and is still named gare Windsor. If you look at the name of the future stations of the REM in Montréal, you'll find "Griffintown-Bernard-Landry", "Sunnybrooke", "Fairview-Pointe-Claire", "Kirkland", and no "ville du griffon", "ruisseau ensoleillé", "belle vue", "pays de l'église", because that's how those places are named, but deciding to name a new train station after someone local seems logical to me, even if the name does not sound obvious to English-speaking people.
- Texas does not have an official language.

EDIT: woops, I missed all and previous answers that were on the next page, so it's a bit of a repeat


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## Exvalley

Devil's Advocate said:


> If Texas went on a cultural cleansing spree that aggressively sanitized Spanish names and pushed English on everyone I would mock those moves as well.


Your analogy makes no sense. The initial European presence in Quebec was French. The Quebecois have maintained a strong and vibrant culture, despite being a small minority in a continent of anglophones. The Quebecois don't want their culture erased - which is completely understandable. There can be a genuine debate as to how far they should go to protect their language, but they certainly have a right to maintain this important aspect of their identity.

You analogy would work better if Texas insisted on solely using Spanish names for public facilities. Frankly, Texas is an excellent example of what would have happened if Quebec did not take steps to preserve their language after England took over.


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## dwebarts

The last time I was in Montreal, I stayed at the Marriott Chateau Champlain, which is in-between the stations, so I know the underground route well. They'd have to mark parts of it a bit better to make it easier for first-timers to navigate between the stations without going outside. Given the climate, Montreal is pretty well connected underground in the downtown area.


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## Exvalley

As a shopping and dining experience, Montreal's underground city is incredibly overrated. As a way to get from point A to point B in the winter, it has some merit.

And yes, it is not easy to navigate as a first-timer.


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## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTES: Time to gently lean back towards discussing the resumption of Amtrak service to Canada please. Thank you for your understanding and participation.


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## JP1822

At one time, the clearance even at the border was "quick enough" to allow the Adirondack to get fully into Montreal before doing a same day connection to the eastbound Ocean or Chaleur to the Maritimes - at 6:30 pm or so. That was a GREAT connection that could have been to have made. If running late - one hopped off at St. Lambert to catch the train EAST to the Maritimes. Likewise heading west and back into Montreal, the Ocean/Chaleur were typically early "back in the day" and one could not only arrive and make the Adirondack connection with ease, but arrive, have breakfast, and leisurely make the Adirondack connection back to the States. One can only hope pre-clearance, or something in Montreal Station itself could help restore this same-day connection, but somehow I strongly doubt it. 

Hopefully we will see the trains crossing into Canada by summer. The tourist and entertainment venues in Canada need the business. But whatever the requirements are going to be (fully vaccinated and definition thereof), they gotta get that ironed out so its reciprocal to some extent. 

In terms of the future with additional crossings - Vermonter would be probably an 11 pm arrival into Montreal, and then clearing customs at Montreal Station - easily a midnight hotel arrival. Ethan Allen I can't see going any further than Burlington, VT. I would support a cross-border connection between Detroit and Windsor. I think it would make better sense than the former International route from Port Huron to Sarnia..... Not trying to go off topic, but a bus route actually still operates overnight from Toronto to Chicago, and it seems to be very appealing.


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## thully

As far as I know, the only overnight bus route from Chicago to Toronto was offered by Greyhound Canada, which has shut down permanently. The only service Greyhound seems to offer now are 20+ hour trips with 2-3 connections. A shame, given that there’s now no reasonable way to get to Toronto from Chicago or Detroit without driving or flying. And no way to cross Detroit-Windsor without a car unless you find a taxi that can cross the border - Tunnel Bus is still suspended with no timetable for its return.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

JP1822 said:


> Vermonter would be probably an 11 pm arrival into Montreal, and then clearing customs at Montreal Station - easily a midnight hotel arrival.


Yes, I don't see an extension of the Vermonter on its current schedule. More workable would be a return to the old Montrealer schedule which of course would not work for Vermont service and they are the ones paying. Too bad because the Montrealer was great for people South of NY on the NEC who now have to change to the Adirondack at NYP not as convenient a schedule.


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## Amtrak25

For acceptable times in Montreal, the Vermonter would have to run an hour earlier northbound on 162/130's schedule, and an hour later on 175/165's schedule southbound. It would trade off some minimal Washington, DC business for more Montreal business for everyone else.


----------



## Bonser

Amtrak25 said:


> Lucien L'allier would just be an open air facility like St Lambert with no amenities, and a rather lonely place on weekends, something like Hoboken. I don't think anyone would object to running an Amtrak train to Hoboken today. I'll take that over taking the Dog to their bus terminal.
> 
> They could also add an intermediate stop at Montreal West or Vendome, the latter having an easier transfer situation to the subway with less twisting and turning through various passageways, stairs, and doors than at Gare Central.
> 
> There would be the issue of being on EXO platforms within their paid fare zone without one of their validated tickets.
> 
> I am sure there is no one on any railroad who once worked Amtrak to Windsor station until the mid 1980's. I don't remember if Amtrak was crewing their trains, or was D&H's. So now, either the Amtrak crew would have to qualify for the route, or do a crew change at Rousses Pt and get a CP crew who is qualified on passenger trains, or a Bombardier/EXO crew with CP heritage who is already qualifed on that trackage and is passenger train or HEP certified.


Hoboken isn't lonely or open air. It's station is beautiful and the tracks are covered.


----------



## StanJazz

Starting April 1 there is no longer a pre-arrival Covid test required. Just proof of being fully vaccinated. Maybe now the train will resume.


----------



## jis

StanJazz said:


> Starting April 1 there is no longer a pre-arrival Covid test required. Just proof of being fully vaccinated. Maybe now the train will resume.


That is one of the necessary conditions, but not a sufficient condition met to restart train service. See @Amtrak25 's post further up this thread.





__





Resumption of Amtrak service to Canada (2022)


Yes, everything changed since detraining with luggage in each direction, VIA Rail cutting its other frequency, and the extremely high jump in through fares once in Ontario, VIA Rail's attempt to compensate for its poor riderhip. I last looked at a VIA Rail annual report about 4 or 5 years ago...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Exvalley

We took advantage of the new rules and went to Quebec on Saturday for a little shopping and dinner. Other than having to use the ArriveCAN app, the border experience was completely uneventful.

That said, I don't really know how Amtrak can effectively monitor whether or not people have entered their information into ArriveCAN, which could make the situation at the border crossing problematic.


----------



## Amtrak25

On that App, didn't you have to fill out a Quarantine plan ? They still can do a test at the border at random, and will notify you a day later in Canada.


----------



## jiml

Exvalley said:


> We took advantage of the new rules and went to Quebec on Saturday for a little shopping and dinner. Other than having to use the ArriveCAN app, the border experience was completely uneventful.
> 
> That said, I don't really know how Amtrak can effectively monitor whether or not people have entered their information into ArriveCAN, which could make the situation at the border crossing problematic.


They need to eliminate that "feature", which is nothing more than making it look like the government is doing something. Most people that I know who have crossed the border recently have said the CBSA agents were not aware or did not have access to the data entered in ArriveCAN, nor the time to look it up for each and every person crossing. For a land crossing that requires a secondary (park, get out of the car) inspection. Also, several have been selected for random testing and quarantine to wait for the results. A friend told me last night that while he enjoyed the extra 4 days off work, he was glad his sick benefits covered it. (Both he and his wife tested negative, with her results arriving the next day.)


----------



## Exvalley

jiml said:


> Also, several have been selected for random testing and quarantine to wait for the results.


Hmm... we were selected for random testing a few months ago. We were not required to quarantine while awaiting the results. Has the policy changed?

In our situation, we had tested within 72 hours of our arrival and were staying for just one night. The test results from the random test did not come in until we were already back home. So absurd.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jiml said:


> Most people that I know who have crossed the border recently have said the CBSA agents were not aware or did not have access to the data entered in ArriveCAN...


My guess is the CBSA mostly ignores ArriveCAN until they are annoyed with someone but are struggling to articulate a reason to interfere, at which point they can ask similar questions and cross reference the answers. If there are any discrepancies then the traveler can be ArriveCANNED.



jiml said:


> For a land crossing that requires a secondary (park, get out of the car) inspection. Also, several have been selected for random testing and quarantine to wait for the results. A friend told me last night that while he enjoyed the extra 4 days off work, he was glad his sick benefits covered it. (Both he and his wife tested negative, with her results arriving the next day.)


The more I research how the CBSA operates the less I want to put any future trips in their hands. With today's prices travelers will probably be on the hook for thousands before they can know if the CBSA will even let them in. By the time you find out that money is probably gone forever. So far as I am aware travel insurance does not cover being refused for cause or on a whim, so you're simply out the money with little chance of getting it back or using it later.


----------



## jiml

Exvalley said:


> Hmm... we were selected for random testing a few months ago. We were not required to quarantine while awaiting the results. Has the policy changed?
> 
> In our situation, we had tested within 72 hours of our arrival and were staying for just one night. The test results from the random test did not come in until we were already back home. So absurd.


That's always been the policy for returning Canadians, at the discretion of the officer. I suspect they might be more lenient with visitors. Other than anecdotal accounts by friends recently - some who have been told to quarantine where others have had it suggested, there are whole threads on this subject on other travel forums. A Canadian returning to Canada is not necessarily at an advantage, although there don't seem to be any consequences for ignoring the order.


----------



## zephyr17

They may not look at the ArriveCan info you entered, but they definitely check that you did it. When I crossed by Amtrak/Cantrail bus on March 25th, anyone who hadn't completed ArriveCan got booted away from the podium and told in no uncertain terms to complete it before getting back in line.

You do not need to show the ArriveCan receipt itself because it is linked to your identity document in their system. When they pull up your passport, NEXUS, etc, your ArriveCan is automatically pulled up. 

ArriveCan is how they know you are vaxxed. I know a CBSA agent looked at my info and said "Three shots. Nice!" The only place that info was was in ArriveCan. I do not think they pay any attention to the quarantine info, though. Just that you did ArriveCan successfully and it shows I (Immunized) or V(Vaccinated, check documentation).


----------



## Amtrak25

Even with Montreal accessible this summer via Greyhound and can't wait to go back to my favorite city, I'll just vacation a few days this summer in Vermont, and not put up with the stress of Arrive Canada App, potential COVID test, and concocting a 10 day quarantine plan all to be evaluated at the border.


----------



## thully

The Canadian government website says that fully vaccinated travelers asked to take a random test do not need to quarantine while waiting for results:






COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




www.canada.ca






Are border agents not adhering to this? Thinking about doing the Canadian+Empire Builder loop this summer, and would either enter Canada in Windsor or Toronto airport (if starting with the Canadian) or from Washington state (if starting with the EB). Would probably only spend 1 night in Toronto having been there a few years ago, but planning to spend a few nights in Vancouver before/after the Canadian. It would obviously be an issue if I had to quarantine longer than I was planning to be there - could obviously work it out per my quarantine plan, but don’t really want to do that unless I’m actually positive.


jiml said:


> That's always been the policy for returning Canadians, at the discretion of the officer. I suspect they might be more lenient with visitors. Other than anecdotal accounts by friends recently - some who have been told to quarantine where others have had it suggested, there are whole threads on this subject on other travel forums. A Canadian returning to Canada is not necessarily at an advantage, although there don't seem to be any consequences for ignoring the order.


----------



## zephyr17

thully said:


> The Canadian government website says that fully vaccinated travelers asked to take a random test do not need to quarantine while waiting for results:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca
> 
> 
> COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.canada.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are border agents not adhering to this? Thinking about doing the Canadian+Empire Builder loop this summer, and would either enter Canada in Windsor or Toronto airport (if starting with the Canadian) or from Washington state (if starting with the EB). Would probably only spend 1 night in Toronto having been there a few years ago, but planning to spend a few nights in Vancouver before/after the Canadian. It would obviously be an issue if I had to quarantine longer than I was planning to be there - could obviously work it out per my quarantine plan, but don’t really want to do that unless I’m actually positive.


Border agents are, in fact, adhering to this to the letter. You do not have to quarantine while awaiting results of the arrival test.

But you still _must _enter a quarantine "plan" in order to successfully complete ArriveCan. You do not have to normally execute the plan, you do not have to have reservations for it. But you must have the "plan".

The issue is that, if you are selected for a random arrival test and it comes back positive, you MUST quarantine. And they monitor and check quarantine. The only exception is if you have a private vehicle, you can self-deport rather than quarantine, stopping only for gas. You are not allowed to self-deport using public transportation.

Since the random arrival test still remains, it is probably still a good idea to take a test just before you go, so you can be reasonably sure you won't get caught with a positive arrival test and have quarantine upend your travel plans.


----------



## thully

OK - that’s what I expected. Figured if you were randomly tested and it came back positive you’d have to quarantine, and was thinking taking a test pre-departure may be worth it if they are randomly testing. PCR might be preferable in that circumstance since those stay positive longer than the at-home rapid tests.


----------



## Amtrak25

I was starting to fill out the Arrive CAN app when I saw Greyhound resumed Bulrington - Montreal service, and got enthusiastic. 

But when I got to the quarantine plan part, I dropped it like a hot potoato. The plan would have to be to hole up in a hotel for $150 a night for 10 nights, have only takeout food, CBSA would have to believe your plan is credible, and if testing positive, lose your money on return bus tickets, as well as wages until return, and your unstopped snailmail will keep pilign up. 

As I said, too much stress.


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> I was starting to fill out the Arrive CAN app when I saw Greyhound resumed Bulrington - Montreal service, and got enthusiastic.
> 
> But when I got to the quarantine plan part, I dropped it like a hot potoato. The plan would have to be to hole up in a hotel for $150 a night for 10 nights, have only takeout food, CBSA would have to believe your plan is credible, and if testing positive, lose your money on return bus tickets, as well as wages until return, and your unstopped snailmail will keep pilign up.
> 
> As I said, too much stress.


I have been up 3 times since the border reopened. You do not have to have reservations to back up your plan, and I have never had a CBSA agent ask a single thing about it.

On 2 of the 3, my plans were not really all that credible as the only delivery food would have been pizza. The third one did offer room service. BTW, only delivery is acceptable, takeout is not as you are not allowed to leave your quarantine accommodation.

The quarantine "plan" is the most absurd thing, all it does is encourage writing fiction. And I doubt CBSA even looks at it at entry. They certainly showed no interest whatsoever in it.

As I said in an earlier post, even though testing is no longer required, with the possibility of a random arrival test, it probably is still a good idea to be tested just before you leave so you can be reasonably confident an arrival test will be negative. That is, unless you drive, in which case you can "self-deport" rather than quarantining.


----------



## coalman

I could only get a bus transport from Seattle to Vanc. BC. IS Amtrak not going to Vanc. BC from US. IS this temporary? Thanks in advance


----------



## zephyr17

coalman said:


> I could only get a bus transport from Seattle to Vanc. BC. IS Amtrak not going to Vanc. BC from US. IS this temporary? Thanks in advance


Service will probably resume at some point. No one knows when, as is amply documented in this thread.


----------



## thully

Canada has relaxed its entry rules somewhat as of April 25th. While you still need to use ArriveCAN and provide proof of vaccination, a quarantine plan is no longer required for fully vaccinated or exempt travelers, though random testing (and the requirement to quarantine if positive) is still in effect. Also, the requirement to wear a mask in all public spaces 14 days after arriving in Canada is no longer in effect.






COVID-19: Travel, testing and borders - Travel.gc.ca


COVID-19 border measures have ended as of October 1, 2022 for all travellers entering or returning to Canada by air, land or sea.




travel.gc.ca





I do wonder if this may make it easier to resume cross-border trains, along with other cross-border transit that remains suspended (such as the Detroit-Windsor tunnel bus). It does seem a bit odd that they no longer are doing the quarantine plan but still plan on doing random testing though…


----------



## zephyr17

It is official, Cascades service to Vancouver will probably not resume until December 2022. The problem is Amtrak staffing.

Washington DOT is officially unhappy about it.


----------



## chickpea

zephyr17 said:


> You do not need to show the ArriveCan receipt itself because it is linked to your identity document in their system. When they pull up your passport, NEXUS, etc, your ArriveCan is automatically pulled up.
> 
> ArriveCan is how they know you are vaxxed.



All still correct as of my land crossing at Lansdowne/Thousand Islands last Friday the 6th! I barely had to answer questions, everything was linked to my Nexus. And, happily...



thully said:


> Canada has relaxed its entry rules somewhat as of April 25th. While you still need to use ArriveCAN and provide proof of vaccination, a quarantine plan is no longer required for fully vaccinated or exempt travelers...



I was pleased not to have to give a quarantine plan like last time, though I am very lucky and do have a place I can be alone (friend's little lake cottage).

Bizarrely I was exposed to COVID while there, but happily escaped it, then tested negative for my flight out to California from Toronto - that test was supposedly required for US entry by air - but not land, go figure - and yet no one ever asked for my proof!  

Edit to add: in train-related news, I was traveling to Toronto for my flight by train from Kingston and there was apparently a fatality when a freight train hit a truck not far west of Kingston. Huge delays. I ended up on a train due in Toronto at about 11am and we got in at 3:30pm. Luckily I'd left tons of time for my trip there and made the flight no problem.


----------



## williamn

I've given up on The Maple Leaf resuming for my July Utica-Toronto trip now! I think instead I'll take the train as far as Buffalo and get the Greyhound from there - which seems to be significantly faster Buffalo -Toronto than the old train schedule!


----------



## flitcraft

WashDOT is furious with Amtrak over the newly announced delay in resuming the Cascades to Vancouver BC, because the Cascades can't cover the Washington stops north of Seattle till Vancouver is back. Ironically, the quotes from WashDOT in the Seattle Times (firewalled, sorry) complain that Amtrak is prioritizing LD trains like resuming 7 day service on the Empire Builder over the state supported corridor service like the Cascades. Amtrak's excuse is that they are short conductors--however, it appears that the Amtrak job listings out of Seattle do not include conductors. 

I've ridden the Cascades north to Vancouver and to Bellingham frequently over the years, and it is a pain to get up there without the train.


----------



## railiner

flitcraft said:


> WashDOT is furious with Amtrak over the newly announced delay in resuming the Cascades to Vancouver BC, because the Cascades can't cover the Washington stops north of Seattle till Vancouver is back. Ironically, the quotes from WashDOT in the Seattle Times (firewalled, sorry) complain that Amtrak is prioritizing LD trains like resuming 7 day service on the Empire Builder over the state supported corridor service like the Cascades. Amtrak's excuse is that they are short conductors--however, it appears that the Amtrak job listings out of Seattle do not include conductors.
> 
> I've ridden the Cascades north to Vancouver and to Bellingham frequently over the years, and it is a pain to get up there without the train.


Why can’t Amtrak run trains between Seattle and Bellingham until service into Canada resumes…especially if Washington is paying for it?


----------



## Cal

railiner said:


> Why can’t Amtrak run trains between Seattle and Bellingham until service into Canada resumes…especially if Washington is paying for it?


No adequate turning facilities?


----------



## zephyr17

Cal said:


> No adequate turning facilities?


The "second train" was a Bellingham turn initially before it was finally extended to Vancouver for the Olympics. They did build a layover track in Bellingham. I don't know if it still exists.


----------



## HenryK

The other day I posted asking the best way (taxi, Uber?) to get from Vancouver's cruise terminal to the VIA Rail station after a cruise for an Amtrak bus trip to Seattle. The post disappeared for some reason. Anyone have an answer?


----------



## greatwestern

HenryK said:


> The other day I posted asking the best way (taxi, Uber?) to get from Vancouver's cruise terminal to the VIA Rail station after a cruise for an Amtrak bus trip to Seattle. The post disappeared for some reason. Anyone have an answer?


I can still see the post !


----------



## WWW

Google Map for reference:

Pacific Central Station - Google Maps

Red Dot is the Pacific Central (Train) Station - this is in lower right of image

The white oblique shape structure in the Harbor is the Cruise Terminal Canada Place

For convenience take a cab taxi uber from the Cruise Terminal to the train station -
You could do it by metro bus but why bother
I believe the cab rate is a flat charge just like going to the airport -
The trip is less than a mile and a half - takes about 10 minutes

From the CP train station to the King St Amtrak station - - -
The Amtrak bus will take about 4 hours maybe less if the customs border folks
have their act together.

As an alternative to the Amtrak Bus there is the Quick Shuttle bus from the Cruise Terminal
to the Seattle Airport LINK:

Home - Quick Shuttle (quickcoach.com)


----------



## Chatter163

HenryK said:


> The other day I posted asking the best way (taxi, Uber?) to get from Vancouver's cruise terminal to the VIA Rail station after a cruise for an Amtrak bus trip to Seattle. The post disappeared for some reason. Anyone have an answer?


It's still there, in plain view.





Crossing border to Seattle from Vancouver


In early July I'll be getting off a cruise ship in Vancouver BC. What's the best way to get from the cruise terminal to the VIA Rail station for a bus to Seattle's Amtrak station? Taxi? Uber? Lyft? I don't suppose there's a bus from terminal to station.




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## Mailliw

Cal said:


> No adequate turning facilities?


It could also be that service north of Seattle just isn't viable without traffic to Vancouver.


----------



## zephyr17

Mailliw said:


> It could also be that service north of Seattle just isn't viable without traffic to Vancouver.


That could be. I took the morning train fairly frequently and Mt. Vernon and Bellingham were significantly turnover points (Edmonds and Everett were almost all people just boarding). But usually at Bellingham almost as many people got on as got off. The train was usually about as full arriving Vancouver as it was leaving Everett.

I recall going down to the station to check out the "second train" (the evening northbound) while it was still the "City of Bellingham" as we called it and it was pretty sparsely populated.


----------



## Trogdor

railiner said:


> Why can’t Amtrak run trains between Seattle and Bellingham until service into Canada resumes…especially if Washington is paying for it?



Because running Seattle to Bellingham requires the same number of Amtrak crews as running to Vancouver.


----------



## JO’C

Trogdor said:


> Because running Seattle to Bellingham requires the same number of Amtrak crews as running to Vancouver.



Whatever Amtrak's excuse(s), there is no viable way to comprehend how they were selling round trip business class tickets from Bellingham to Portland in February for travel in June, make route familiarity runs and not communicate to ticketed passengers that there are NO PLANS or dates to restart service.


----------



## railiner

Mailliw said:


> It could also be that service north of Seattle just isn't viable without traffic to Vancouver.


Probably so…I was thinking in terms of the Vermonter, which ‘replaced’ the Montrealer. Similar? Maybe…


----------



## zephyr17

railiner said:


> Probably so…I was thinking in terms of the Vermonter, which ‘replaced’ the Montrealer. Similar? Maybe…


I don't think the cases are all that similar. The Montrealer was an overnight train, the Vermonter a day one. The "City of Bellingham" ran on pretty much a similar schedule to the evening north/morning south Vancouver train. IIRC (and it has been a long time), crew availability wasn't the issue for the Montrealer, but schedule reliability and lengthening due to horrendous track conditions.

The circumstances are quite different, and not parallel, other than both the Montrealer and Cascades crossed the border and were crewed by Amtrak the whole way.


----------



## Trogdor

JO’C said:


> Whatever Amtrak's excuse(s), there is no viable way to comprehend how they were selling round trip business class tickets from Bellingham to Portland in February for travel in June, make route familiarity runs and not communicate to ticketed passengers that there are NO PLANS or dates to restart service.



How is there “no viable way to comprehend”? There’s a nationwide staffing shortage affecting almost every industry. _Everybody_ had more optimistic staffing projections in February than reality is turning out to support.

I’m definitely not saying Amtrak made all the right decisions a couple of years ago when they furloughed a bunch of employees, but there’s nothing that can be done today about decisions made in 2020. That said, even transportation agencies that _didn’t_ furlough anybody are facing major staffing shortages right now, and despite attempts to ramp up hiring, they’re still finishing the day with fewer people than they started.

The fact that Amtrak was able to restore some of the service they did is actually a bit amazing. I’m working with agencies that are still cutting service, even as ridership is returning, simply because they just don’t have enough staff to operate (or maintain) the equipment.


----------



## zephyr17

I am posting a link to the post I just made over in the Amtrak Board with the letter I sent to my Senators on Coscia since it directly bears and refers to the resumption of service to Vancouver:





__





Amtrak Board


https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/bidens-amtrak-board-nominations-lack-qualifications-demanded-by-congress-analysis/ https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/passenger-association-union-applaud-amtrak-board-nominations/ mixed messages from RPA. Comment section on those...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## west point

What about the Adirondack and Maple Leaf.


----------



## zephyr17

west point said:


> What about the Adirondack and Maple Leaf.


Well, Amtrak crewing isn't going to be the issue there, as it is already running NFL-NYP.

VIA resumption and crewing? Who knows. They can't be any worse than Amtrak.


----------



## TrackWalker

zephyr17 said:


> The "second train" was a Bellingham turn initially before it was finally extended to Vancouver for the Olympics. They did build a layover track in Bellingham. I don't know if it still exists.



There was no layover track built. It was simply parked in the Pine Street yard in Bellingham. (2006)



This was the cleaning facility (the dirt strip) and equipment.


----------



## HenryK

I am blind as a bat. Yes, it's still there, and I apologize for casting aspersions! Anyway, thanks very much for the advice.
Especially for that terrific map. I'll be overnighting in Seattle and catching the Builder the next day to Glenview IL.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Ouch..



https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Letter-to-Amtrak-on-BC-Service-5-12-22_.pdf


----------



## jis

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Ouch..
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.trains.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Letter-to-Amtrak-on-BC-Service-5-12-22_.pdf


Good for them. Amtrak does need to have its feet held to fire by the States that are being mistreated.


----------



## MARC Rider

Here's a summary of some details of the Amtrak staffing issues:









Delayed return of ‘Cascades’ to Canada shows Amtrak employment challenges: Analysis (updated) - Trains


SEATTLE — In its determination to cut costs in 2020 and 2021 as the COVID-19 pandemic sucker-punched its prized Northeast Corridor moneymakers, Amtrak management turned off the hiring pipeline while furloughing employees nationwide. But state-based decisions deferring resumption of regional...




www.trains.com





An OBS class was supposed to begin on May 9, but only 3 of the 21 applicants had passed their background checks by May 6. It's not clear whether that's because of Amtrak's inability to process the candidates in a timely matter or because most of the applicants were failing the background checks. Given that both Washington and Oregon have legalized recreational weed, and Amtrak uses hair follicle testing (which is probably overly sensitive to past weed use), it is quite possible that the problem is that most of the applicants are failing the drug test.

Then there's the issue that apparently newly hired maintenance workers have a 6-month training period in which they are under some sort of training status and can thus not bid for a position.

There's also the issue of equipment shortages, as WSDOT rejected the offer of three Talgo 8 trainsets that were gathering dust. 

Anyway, I don't know enough to comment on the validity of these points, I'm just repeating what was in the article.

The implication from the WSDOT/ODOT letter was that Amtrak prioritized resumption of daily Empire Builder and Coast Starlight service over resumption of Cascades service north of Seattle into Vancouver. If I were running Amtrak, I'd probably agree with WSDOT/ODOT and prioritize the corridor services; after all the two long distance trains are running 5 days a week, whereas there is no Cascades service north of Seattle. This is hurting more than people riding to Vancouver, there is no service to points within Washington State that should have service.


----------



## Northwestern

Mailliw said:


> It could also be that service north of Seattle just isn't viable without traffic to Vancouver.


*****************************
Yes. no Cascade service north of Seattle and to Vancouver would be huge loss.

I would really like to see an Amtrak station stop in Blaine, WA (former home of country music star Loretta Lynn). There are 870,00 Canadians living south of the Fraser River. The only way they can get on a Cascade train is to double back to Vancouver. Also, same for people living well north of Seattle who want to get to Vancouver, BC. There is a big gap between Bellingham and Vancouver and a Blaine station could help fill that gap.


----------



## JP1822

Agree with you on a stop needed at Blaine, WA. I had thought when the Cascade train to Vancouver first launched there was a station stop south of Blaine that would have helped ease this (or perhaps one was strongly proposed but never got built). 

It would have helped to maintain the Bellingham - Seattle Cascade Corridor train. Ran for years to Bellingham, without being extended to Vancouver, BC. Would have at least preserved the work force - if done correctly. 

With all these States legalizing marijuana - for recreational use or whatever - this is causing a big conundrum. Its not legal on the federal level. It’s legal in the recreational sense. But it’s going to be flagged in a drug test and cost a person his/her job. I am not getting into this debate - legal or otherwise - but its a problem within this triangle. If you get a medical card to use marijuana, I guess that may get you around the drug test? Very problematic. Even if used medically, there’s still a possibility of an impairment, and do you use it medically on the job? 

I know some people that have overcome their insomnia by taking an edible form at night. And they say it doesn’t cause the drowsiness in the morning like Ambiance or other sleep aid meds. So medical marijuana has legitimately helped them, and they take it as they are supposed to. If they only take it at night for said prescribed reason (while not working), will that give someone a “pass“ in their drug test? Said people may only be able to find jobs for those jobs that don’t drug test I guess. Again, complicated. 

And it’s my understanding Amtrak may not do some of the drug testing upfront or closer to someone being hired (and sometimes as a condition of being hired). They fail it, and that’s wasted training and invested time….


----------



## jis

Northwestern said:


> *****************************
> Yes. no Cascade service north of Seattle and to Vancouver would be huge loss.
> 
> I would really like to see an Amtrak station stop in Blaine, WA (former home of country music star Loretta Lynn). There are 870,00 Canadians living south of the Fraser River. The only way they can get on a Cascade train is to double back to Vancouver. Also, same for people living well north of Seattle who want to get to Vancouver, BC. There is a big gap between Bellingham and Vancouver and a Blaine station could help fill that gap.


I agree. This is something that WDOT needs to push and fund. It would be entirely in their bailiwick as far as having it or not goes.


----------



## Mailliw

Medicinal and recreational marijuana are equally illegal under federal law. Having a medical card doesn't count for anything as far as employee drug testing goes; no disability accommodation is available under federal law.


----------



## zephyr17

This is just my opinion and only my opinion. It is speculation based on the previous posts with the letters and the Trains analysis.

First, I am personally quite sure that when Vancouver service is restored it will only be one train, the Seattle-Vancouver 516/519 pair.

Second, while I am a bit less sure if this, I bet that we will not see the Portland-Vancouver train, the 517/518 pair, restored until the Siemens Venture cars are in Cascades service.

Anyone want to take me up on that?


----------



## zephyr17

jis said:


> I agree. This is something that WDOT needs to push and fund. It would be entirely in their bailiwick as far as having it or not goes.


Blaine has been pushing for it and it makes sense. Although I bet WSDOT would make the City of Blaine and/or Whatcom County pay the lion's share of the costs to build the necessary platform/infrastructure.

It is a real possibility, though.

But right now I think just getting the trains running at all is the priority.


----------



## railiner

Looking at Amtrak’s early Pacific International, it stopped at Blaine, WA and White Rock, BC customs stations, although not sure if they were also station stops. They did however, stop for passengers at New Westminster, BC…


----------



## zephyr17

railiner said:


> Looking at Amtrak’s early Pacific International, it stopped at Blaine, WA and White Rock, BC customs stations, although not sure if they were also station stops. They did however, stop for passengers at New Westminster, BC…


Pacific International did. Cascades didn't. I rode the Cascades from Day One, pretty much. There was a huge gap between the discontinuance of the Pacific International and the initiation of international Cascades service.


----------



## Willbridge

Here's the formal exchange of correspondence regarding service on what author Stewart Holbrook called "the Far Corner." It isn't directly discussed, but with the duration of the service suspension I would expect a fatal ped or auto crossing accident after service finally begins again. Local folks will "know" that it's only a bulk cargo train plodding along.


----------



## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> This is just my opinion and only my opinion. It is speculation based on the previous posts with the letters and the Trains analysis.
> 
> First, I am personally quite sure that when Vancouver service is restored it will only be one train, the Seattle-Vancouver 516/519 pair.
> 
> Second, while I am a bit less sure if this, I bet that we will not see the Portland-Vancouver train, the 517/518 pair, restored until the Siemens Venture cars are in Cascades service.
> 
> Anyone want to take me up on that?


Reasonable surmises. Here is an update on the _Cascades, _from the May 21st All Aboard Washington meeting in Centralia.


----------



## JP1822

Goes to show how deep the staffing cuts were when COVID hit. Should it have went that far? We have 20/20 hindsight now, but surprisingly Amtrak didn’t even consider any service north of Seattle (e,g, Bellingham to Seattle service) unless it went all the way. The lead time to re-start service from zero staff is interesting. Not sure what staff was sent to establish daily LD train service, as that’s still trying to turn the corner (will shortly), but that seems more like an easy excuse. Still, of interest, Amtrak often said it furloughed employees during COVID, but clearly that’s not what happened here (they were severed).


----------



## zephyr17

I understand many furloughed people just took it as a chance to change jobs. They didn't come back.

Clearly the furloughs were far too deep.


----------



## west point

Willbridge: Has anyone pointed out to WA DOT that Amtrak a while back ran a bunch of qualification / requalification's run on the Vancouver BC route? Makes one wonder if it is equipment not crew.


----------



## zephyr17

west point said:


> Willbridge: Has anyone pointed out to WA DOT that Amtrak a while back ran a bunch of qualification / requalification's run on the Vancouver BC route? Makes one wonder if it is equipment not crew.


I am sure they know. The rail division of Washington DOT is highly invested in the service and monitors it pretty closely.


----------



## DaveW

When the Skagit River bridge collapsed shutting southbound I-5 in 2013, they added service.

Rail News - Amtrak to add Cascades trip in response to bridge collapse over Skagit River. For Railroad Career Professionals


----------



## JP1822

Although perhaps not ideal, but you can’t tell me Amtrak couldn’t figure out “something” between its Amfleet and Horizon fleet, even though I know the Horizon fleet is pretty well stretched right now due to the delay in deployment of the Venture train cars.


----------



## west point

Is there a release date yet for Venture set from Sacramento? Also, will it go directly to Seattle or will have to rotate thru CHI / IND for testing and final outfitting?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Is there a release date yet for Venture set from Sacramento? Also, will it directly to Seattle or will have to rotate thru CHI / IND for testing?


First ICT (diesel) sets in FY26, that is CY25-26. First set will go to NEC for testing (afterall, they do have to be tested upto the specified 125mph) before going to PNW. The remaining 7 will go directly to PNW.


----------



## Chris I

Hopefully we can get a few more Horizons or Superliners in the interim. 4 more years is a long time to wait, since the current equipment can barely cover the already reduced schedules (compared to those promised with the Point Defiance Bypass).


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Amtrak’s response to letter from WA and Oregon…
Two pages of why we can’t bring service back til December, ended by a non committal “perhaps we can do 3 day a week service though”










Delayed return of ‘Cascades’ to Canada shows Amtrak employment challenges: Analysis (updated) - Trains


SEATTLE — In its determination to cut costs in 2020 and 2021 as the COVID-19 pandemic sucker-punched its prized Northeast Corridor moneymakers, Amtrak management turned off the hiring pipeline while furloughing employees nationwide. But state-based decisions deferring resumption of regional...




www.trains.com


----------



## PaTrainFan

In the bigger picture Amtrak likely furloughed more employees than it should have in part because it never expected, or perhaps even hoped, that full long distance service would return. Congress likely put a crimp into Amtrak's longer term thinking by allocating funds for, and mandating, the return of pre-pandemic service levels.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

US Senator involved now. 








Amtrak must re-establish Cascade train service for a credible rail future


Amtrak's ongoing delays of service restoration between Seattle and British Columbia are harming today's travelers and public trust in regional rail's future.




www.seattletimes.com


----------



## zephyr17

Happy to say I wrote to my Senators Murray and Cantwell opposing Coscia's renomination on May 17, citing Amtrak's inability to restore Cascades service to Vancouver as one of the executive management failures on his watch.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Has there been any indication of when service is expected to resume in December? I am planning a trip that involves going from Seattle to Vancouver that month and would prefer to do it by train if possible.


----------



## Shanson

I have tickets on the bus for a border crossing in February 2023. Amtrak is not giving us any cause for hope.


----------



## zephyr17

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Has there been any indication of when service is expected to resume in December? I am planning a trip that involves going from Seattle to Vancouver that month and would prefer to do it by train if possible.


Nobody knows. "December" was very approximate in the Amtrak letter to WSDOT and ODOT. Amtrak is clearly evading committing to a firm date, at least for now.


----------



## zephyr17

Shanson said:


> I have tickets on the bus for a border crossing in February 2023. Amtrak is not giving us any cause for hope.


The only hope is they have got more political and public pressure on them now than they have had. WSDOT deliberate published the letter from Amtrak when they had been keeping mum before and are clearly angry and frustrated. Senator Cantwell called Gardner in for a "discusion" (aka tongue lashing) about it after the letter came out.

There is definitely a lot more heat about it now than there was.


----------



## neroden

MARC Rider said:


> Here's a summary of some details of the Amtrak staffing issues:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delayed return of ‘Cascades’ to Canada shows Amtrak employment challenges: Analysis (updated) - Trains
> 
> 
> SEATTLE — In its determination to cut costs in 2020 and 2021 as the COVID-19 pandemic sucker-punched its prized Northeast Corridor moneymakers, Amtrak management turned off the hiring pipeline while furloughing employees nationwide. But state-based decisions deferring resumption of regional...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An OBS class was supposed to begin on May 9, but only 3 of the 21 applicants had passed their background checks by May 6. It's not clear whether that's because of Amtrak's inability to process the candidates in a timely matter or because most of the applicants were failing the background checks. Given that both Washington and Oregon have legalized recreational weed, and Amtrak uses hair follicle testing (which is probably overly sensitive to past weed use), it is quite possible that the problem is that most of the applicants are failing the drug test.



Time for Amtrak to stop doing hair follicle tests. Switch to something less over-sensitive. The hair follicle tests have actual false positives from people who've simply been spending a lot of time with cannabis smokers without smoking themselves. Given the laws in Washington and Oregon, this is just going to be too common...









Finding cannabinoids in hair does not prove cannabis consumption - Scientific Reports


Hair analysis for cannabinoids is extensively applied in workplace drug testing and in child protection cases, although valid data on incorporation of the main analytical targets, ∆9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and 11-nor-9-carboxy-THC (THC-COOH), into human hair is widely missing. Furthermore...




www.nature.com





Though I've also heard reports that Amtrak is not processing applicants in a timely manner.


----------



## west point

Suspect problems are because of shortage of customs and border control both US and Canadian. If they have to motor to the station that makes 1 or 2 not available at other crossings.


----------



## v v

Just to clarify please, this is for November... probably:

Either train or bus from Toronto to the Falls Canadien side, walk across the bridge, train to NYC?

Do these services usually operate in mid winter too?

Thank you


----------



## Bob Dylan

v v said:


> Just to clarify please, this is for November... probably:
> 
> Either train or bus from Toronto to the Falls Canadien side, walk across the bridge, train to NYC?
> 
> Do these services usually operate in mid winter too?
> 
> Thank you


Yes they do Jamie! 

Like all things post Pandemic, the Schedules are Uncertain and TBD,but GO Trains and Buses and VIA( No Maple Leaf however) should be running with Weekends having more Service, 

And although yall won't be there when the Falls Freeze later on, it's Beautiful there in the Winter.


----------



## amtrakpass

The Maple Leaf to Toronto is available again for purchase on the Amtrak app in about a week starting on June 27th. We'll find out soon if it actually is running. Shows as Via Rail #98 on the Canadian side going towards Toronto. Haven't noticed anything about the Adirondack or Cascades services however


----------



## jis

amtrakpass said:


> The Maple Leaf to Toronto is available again for purchase on the Amtrak app in about a week starting on June 27th. We'll find out soon if it actually is running. Shows as Via Rail #98 on the Canadian side going towards Toronto. Haven't noticed anything about the Adirondack or Cascades services however


The BC fare is just $1 more than Coach? I guess Amtrak forgot to add in the fare differential in the US segment. The fare differential is indeed $1 in the Canadian segment.

BTW, it does not appear in the VIARail system yet.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> The BC fare is just $1 more than Coach? I guess Amtrak forgot to add in the fare differential in the US segment. The fare differential is indeed $1 in the Canadian segment.


One of the Best Deals going even if Technicaly VIA doesnt have BC on this route, and something the Adirondack badly needs IF it ever runs again( even if its an Amtrak Train unlike the VIA/Amtrak run Maple Leaf???)


----------



## jiml

VIA has been known to use the business car for local traffic, with no actual business service. On several occasions we have had to sit in regular coach between Toronto and Niagara Falls if origin or destination was in NY State although holding business class tickets. "That's an Amtrak ticket" is a common reason, as is saying CBP or CBSA wants all cross-border passengers in one car. In fairness, we've also had to move from Business at Amtrak's behest between Buffalo and the border for the same reason. They usually open only one door for border checks and it's not in the business car.


----------



## zephyr17

I've ridden it several times, and been seated in the BC coach, TWO-NFL. The single open coach TWO-NFL is the one just forward of the BC/Cafe. I have seen them open both doors at NFL, and have also seen then open just the one in the open coach, which is no big deal since that door is just forward of BC/cafe. I've not had them not seat me in BC, Toronto-Niagara Falls.

I last rode it across the border in 2018. In my 2019 trip, it was bustituted between Toronto and Niagara Falls, NY due to bridge work on the Whirlpool bridge. The bus went through the normal bus border controls at the Rainbow Bridge Port of Entry, btw.


----------



## zephyr17

amtrakpass said:


> The Maple Leaf to Toronto is available again for purchase on the Amtrak app in about a week starting on June 27th.


That is good news for me! Right now I am booked NFL-NYP in business in November. I booked it early because I wanted one of the 18 BC seats. Booked it later once(about 3 months before) and BC was sold out. If the train still wasn't running through I figured I'd either take Megabus to Buffalo and change my Amtrak ticket to BFX or take GO Transit to Niagara Falls, ON, and cab/Uber to the Rainbow Bridge, then cab/Uber to NFL.

Since the train is coming back, I'll either extend my ticket to TWO with Amtrak, or buy a Toronto-Niagara Falls, NY ticket from VIA on their train 97 (their side of the Leaf) to get an extra VIA segment credit and points in Preference. I am leaning towards booking with VIA.

Now if they only get the Cascades running, at least on weekends again, so I don't have to do a weird EVR-SEA-VAC itinerary on the Builder and the Cantrail bus to Vancouver to get from Everett to Vancouver. WSDOT is still holding out some vague hope getting Amtrak to start some less than daily service (likely Fri-Sat-Sun) to Vancouver before December 2022.

Finally, something is up with it on viarail.ca. it used to just say no service. Now it says "no service on date requested. Next service is on [next day]." Try the next day and get the same message, ad infinitum. Think it may be an artifact of them in the process of adding it into their system.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> VIA has been known to use the business car for local traffic, with no actual business service. On several occasions we have had to sit in regular coach between Toronto and Niagara Falls if origin or destination was in NY State although holding business class tickets. "That's an Amtrak ticket" is a common reason, as is saying CBP or CBSA wants all cross-border passengers in one car. In fairness, we've also had to move from Business at Amtrak's behest between Buffalo and the border for the same reason. They usually open only one door for border checks and it's not in the business car.


I've never had to do that while riding in BC in Biz Class on the Maple Leaf in both directions, so things have changed.( disclaimer: it's been over 2 years since I made that trip.)

Also, you used to be checked on the Train @ the VIa Station on the Canadian side, but for the past few years everyone has had to get off with their stuff and go into the Station for the process before reboarding when everyone was cleared.


----------



## zephyr17

Bob Dylan said:


> Also, you used to be checked on the Train @ the VIa Station on the Canadian side, but for the past few years everyone has had to get off with their stuff and go into the Station for the process before reboarding when everyone was cleared.


Yeah, unfortunately that is the process both CBSA and CBP prefer. I think there may be resistance to restarting the Adirondack from those agencies on that basis since in station processing isn't possible on it. Like problems with Amtrak aren't enough.

Anyone have any word on NYS getting that one going again? We now have at least some word on the Cascades (not good news, but at least some news) and the Leaf, but not the Adirondack.


----------



## fdaley

jiml said:


> VIA has been known to use the business car for local traffic, with no actual business service. On several occasions we have had to sit in regular coach between Toronto and Niagara Falls if origin or destination was in NY State although holding business class tickets. "That's an Amtrak ticket" is a common reason, as is saying CBP or CBSA wants all cross-border passengers in one car. In fairness, we've also had to move from Business at Amtrak's behest between Buffalo and the border for the same reason. They usually open only one door for border checks and it's not in the business car.


I thought that in recent years they had made everyone pile off the train at the Maple Leaf border crossings. On my last ride on it in 2018, I had a BC seat to Toronto and was allowed back to the same seat after hauling my luggage into the VIA NFO station for a lengthy customs interview.


----------



## zephyr17

fdaley said:


> I thought that in recent years they had made everyone pile off the train at the Maple Leaf border crossings. On my last ride on it in 2018, I had a BC seat to Toronto and was allowed back to the same seat after hauling my luggage into the VIA NFO station for a lengthy customs interview.


Yeah, they make everyone pile off on both sides and had for several years pre-COVID.


----------



## jiml

fdaley said:


> I thought that in recent years they had made everyone pile off the train at the Maple Leaf border crossings. On my last ride on it in 2018, I had a BC seat to Toronto and was allowed back to the same seat after hauling my luggage into the VIA NFO station for a lengthy customs interview.


Indeed. Our last ride was northbound in 2017 and the Amtrak conductor had all Canada-bound passengers vacate the business car before Niagara Falls, NY, where the Amtrak crew left the train. On the Canadian side only one door was opened to encourage a single-file line into the CBSA screening. When re-boarding the business class/cafe car remained closed for the rest of the trip to Toronto. In 2019 the bridge was closed for lengthy repairs, resulting in suspension of the service, and everyone knows what happened after that.  I'm anxious to see if anything has changed if and when the train resumes.


----------



## zephyr17

Hmm, going the other direction to New York from Toronto in 2018 and earlier, the car was always staffed by VIA with VIA stock. The VIA attendant boxed up all his stock and got off at Niagara Falls, ON. I thought it was quite the class act for VIA to provide full cafe service for a two hour trip and not deprive people of access to needed coffee for a fairly early departure.

Unfortunately, the one time I rode it both directions in 2019, I got caught by the Whirlpool Bridge closure an was bustituted between Niagara Falls, NY and Toronto. Even so, VIA was a class act. The train's service manager was aboard the bus and passed out free bottled water and granola bars for everyone.


----------



## fdaley

zephyr17 said:


> Hmm, going the other direction to New York from Toronto in 2018 and earlier, the car was always staffed by VIA with VIA stock. The VIA attendant boxed up all his stock and got off at Niagara Falls, ON. I thought it was quite the class act for VIA to provide full cafe service for a two hour trip and not deprive people of access to needed coffee for a fairly early departure.
> 
> Unfortunately, the one time I rode it both directions in 2019, I got caught by the Whirlpool Bridge closure an was bustituted between Niagara Falls, NY and Toronto. Even so, VIA was a class act. The train's service manager was aboard the bus and passed out free bottled water and granola bars for everyone.


I remember that VIA snack counter setup, which had the feeling of a very temporary occupation of Amtrak's space. I'm not sure the VIA attendant had access to any of the Amtrak cupboards or fridges, so his stuff was just laid out on the surfaces. At least in recent years, the VIA menu was very limited, but I appreciated that they made the effort. And the coffee was good.


----------



## zephyr17

fdaley said:


> I remember that VIA snack counter setup, which had the feeling of a very temporary occupation of Amtrak's space. I'm not sure the VIA attendant had access to any of the Amtrak cupboards or fridges, so his stuff was just laid out on the surfaces. At least in recent years, the VIA menu was very limited, but I appreciated that they made the effort. And the coffee was good.


Not sure about fridges, but it was laid out on surfaces. Makes sense, because he has to get it all packed up again by Niagara Falls.

He stayed open longer than I thought he would, too. To at or shortly before St. Catherine's. If an Amtrak attendant, he would have closed up around Hamilton .


----------



## Amtrak25

fdaley said:


> I remember that VIA snack counter setup, which had the feeling of a very temporary occupation of Amtrak's space. I'm not sure the VIA attendant had access to any of the Amtrak cupboards or fridges, so his stuff was just laid out on the surfaces. At least in recent years, the VIA menu was very limited, but I appreciated that they made the effort. And the coffee was good.



VIA's cafe coach food service is not that elaborate in the first place. Only thing hot is coffee/hot water. Everything else comes out of the airline aisle cart. 

Regardless, I won't ride the Maple Leaf into Canada as long as these off-board custom shenanigans continue.


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> VIA's cafe coach food service is not that elaborate in the first place. Only thing hot is coffee/hot water. Everything else comes out of the airline aisle cart.
> 
> Regardless, I won't ride the Maple Leaf into Canada as long as these off-board custom shenanigans continue.


Then you will never ride it again. Neither CBP nor CBSA are going to return to onboard inspections on the Maple Leaf. Both agencies seriously hate onboard inspections and consider them less secure. I think it is quite possible one or both agencies may well try to block resumption of the Adirondack due to this mindset because in station inspections are not possible on it. At most Canada may at some point exercise their Preclearance rights and set up in the relatively new Niagara Falls, NY station, which was designed specifically with facilities to support full in station Immigration and Customs inspections with both CBP and possible future use by CBSA in mind.

PS, no cart on the Maple Leaf. The VIA attendant sets up at the cafe counter on the Leaf.


----------



## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> Hmm, going the other direction to New York from Toronto in 2018 and earlier, the car was always staffed by VIA with VIA stock. The VIA attendant boxed up all his stock and got off at Niagara Falls, ON. I thought it was quite the class act for VIA to provide full cafe service for a two hour trip and not deprive people of access to needed coffee for a fairly early departure.


Yes, that's exactly how it worked on all of my southbound trips, although on a couple of occasions VIA designated New York cars and local cars out of Toronto resulting in confusion for those of us holding Business tickets on Amtrak stock. (The business car was in the "local" section.)

Sidebar note: Those were the days when VIA had the Coke and Amtrak still had Pepsi.


----------



## jiml

fdaley said:


> I remember that VIA snack counter setup, which had the feeling of a very temporary occupation of Amtrak's space. I'm not sure the VIA attendant had access to any of the Amtrak cupboards or fridges, so his stuff was just laid out on the surfaces. At least in recent years, the VIA menu was very limited, but I appreciated that they made the effort. And the coffee was good.


Yes, that was definitely the case and I don't recall any hot food (e.g. breakfast sandwich). VIA used to get their coffee from a regional Toronto place called Second Cup for many corridor runs out of Toronto. Although not a coffee-drinker myself, my expert liked it.


----------



## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> Then you will never ride it again. Neither CBP nor CBSA are going to return to onboard inspections on the Maple Leaf. Both agencies seriously hate onboard inspections and consider them less secure. I think it is quite possible one or both agencies may well try to block resumption of the Adirondack due to this mindset because in station inspections are not possible on it. At most Canada may at some point exercise their Preclearance rights and set up in the relatively new Niagara Falls, NY station, which was designed specifically with facilities to support full in station Immigration and Customs inspections with both CBP and possible future use by CBSA in mind.
> 
> PS, no cart on the Maple Leaf. The VIA attendant sets up at the cafe counter on the Leaf.


As on older person, I so miss the very informal relationship that used to exist between the two countries. With hundreds of land crossings in my lifetime just having your driver's license (birth certificate card for children) in your hand would often get a wave through in either direction when going by car. Canadian authorities were mostly concerned that returning citizens bought too much cheap booze and Americans were concerned about how many people were in the car and their citizenship. Where it's easy to blame 9-11 for the degradation, it was more of a contributing factor than the sole cause of today's mess. The on-board rail inspections were problematic because they took more staff, that had to be brought in from other locations twice a day. 

Canadian pre-clearance at Niagara Falls specifically is rooted in money issues, but it comes down to how much to invest in one train a day. If GO were to revive their pre-pandemic proposal to run 4 trains a day into Niagara Falls, NY, it might make a difference, however there are capital costs and manpower issues associated with that moving forward.


----------



## Bob Dylan

amtrakpass said:


> The Maple Leaf to Toronto is available again for purchase on the Amtrak app in about a week starting on June 27th. We'll find out soon if it actually is running. Shows as Via Rail #98 on the Canadian side going towards Toronto. Haven't noticed anything about the Adirondack or Cascades services however


And the Toronto to NYP service begins the next day 6/28 as VIA Train #7097.


----------



## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> And the Toronto to NYP service begins the next day 6/28 as VIA Train #7097.


For which no tickets appear to be available:


> There was no service found matching your search criteria. For more information, please send an e-mail or contact VIA Rail directly at 1-888-VIA-RAIL. If your trip involves a service provided by another carrier, please contact them directly.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> For which no tickets appear to be available:


Wow, maybe it's only available thru Amtrak since its Amtrak equipment. Perhaps VIA hasn't had time to load it into their system ???


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> Then you will never ride it again. Neither CBP nor CBSA are going to return to onboard inspections on the Maple Leaf. Both agencies seriously hate onboard inspections and consider them less secure. I think it is quite possible one or both agencies may well try to block resumption of the Adirondack due to this mindset because in station inspections are not possible on it.


Well... never say never. It’s entirely possible a new system is developed one day. 

I also thought the goal with the Adirondack was to have the clearance in Montreal like they do for the Cascades?


----------



## glensfallsse

jiml said:


> As on older person, I so miss the very informal relationship that used to exist between the two countries. With hundreds of land crossings in my lifetime just having your driver's license (birth certificate card for children) in your hand would often get a wave through in either direction when going by car. Canadian authorities were mostly concerned that returning citizens bought too much cheap booze and Americans were concerned about how many people were in the car and their citizenship. Where it's easy to blame 9-11 for the degradation, it was more of a contributing factor than the sole cause of today's mess. The on-board rail inspections were problematic because they took more staff, that had to be brought in from other locations twice a day.
> 
> Canadian pre-clearance at Niagara Falls specifically is rooted in money issues, but it comes down to how much to invest in one train a day. If GO were to revive their pre-pandemic proposal to run 4 trains a day into Niagara Falls, NY, it might make a difference, however there are capital costs and manpower issues associated with that moving forward.


I came through Buffalo once years ago during rush hour. "Citizenship?" the customs officer asked. "U.S." I said. "Thanks." That was it.
I walked back through the San Ysidro crossing from Tijuana one night in the 1990s. Two lines of people simply filed past a single officer, who just kept asking if everyone was a U.S. citizen.
In college before that, Plattsburgh had a bus that would go to Montreal and back on some weekends. One night the customs office stepped onto the bus briefly and asked, "Anyone have any alcohol, other than what's in your stomach?" A drunken laugh ensued. On we went.


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well... never say never. It’s entirely possible a new system is developed one day.
> 
> I also thought the goal with the Adirondack was to have the clearance in Montreal like they do for the Cascades?


Yes, it is, but according to posts earlier in this thread, movement had stopped on it and it is it'll probably be several years to get there once it gets back going. My understanding is that is a requirement by CBP and CBSA for ever allowing the Vermonter to be re-extended back to Montreal. They won't support another train requiring onboard inspection.


----------



## zephyr17

Bob Dylan said:


> Wow, maybe it's only available thru Amtrak since its Amtrak equipment. Perhaps VIA hasn't had time to load it into their system ???


It wasn't in the Before Times, it was in both. Based on how ReserVIA is behaving right now for it (service next day, forever), I suspect they are in the middle of doing _ something_ with it in the system.


----------



## fdaley

Amtrak25 said:


> Regardless, I won't ride the Maple Leaf into Canada as long as these off-board custom shenanigans continue.



This is pretty much how I feel about it. I tolerated the schlep-off-the-train-with-your-luggage routine on my one-way solo trip in 2018, and I might put up with it again sometime if I'm traveling alone. But I remember thinking when we went through it on a family trip in 2017, "Let's not do this again." So the next family trip, we took the Adirondack, even though it added a day to the itinerary, and sat on board for the inspection.

Most of my cross-border travel is for family vacations, which at this point invariably involve a wheelchair, some combination of kids and/or very elderly parents, and enough luggage for two or three weeks of travel. There's no way I'm going to corral us and all of our stuff off the train and back on again for the sake of the border agencies' security theater.

So while I'm glad on principle that the Maple Leaf will be running again, the prospects of me riding it anytime soon are quite low. It used to offer a decent way of connecting to the Canadian, but it really doesn't anymore. We'll consider the Adirondack if it's running as it did pre-pandemic, and otherwise we'll just drive to St. Lambert or to one of the VIA corridor stations such as Cornwall or Brockville.


----------



## zephyr17

jiml said:


> Canadian pre-clearance at Niagara Falls specifically is rooted in money issues, but it comes down to how much to invest in one train a day. If GO were to revive their pre-pandemic proposal to run 4 trains a day into Niagara Falls, NY, it might make a difference, however there are capital costs and manpower issues associated with that moving forward.


Not really sure I get that. The capital costs have largely been spent, the Niagara Falls, NY station is already there with Port of Entry facilities designed for both sides from the outset.

It shouldn't require any different manpower than CBSA staffing Niagara Falls, ON for just one train. They just have to send agents up the other side of Gorge from the main crossing at Rainbow Bridge instead of on their side.


----------



## fdaley

jiml said:


> Yes, that was definitely the case and I don't recall any hot food (e.g. breakfast sandwich). VIA used to get their coffee from a regional Toronto place called Second Cup for many corridor runs out of Toronto. Although not a coffee-drinker myself, my expert liked it.


Yeah, Second Cup was good -- much better, I thought, than the Dunkin' that Amtrak was serving at the time.


----------



## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> Not really sure I get that. The capital costs have largely been spent, the Niagara Falls, NY station is already there with Port of Entry facilities designed for both sides from the outset.


My comment was specific to the GO proposal to cross the border into NY. Running the GO trains into Niagara Falls, NY, requires rehabilitation of the southernmost track, a switch at the west end and second platform to allow two trains to occupy the station simultaneously and ideally a pedestrian overpass to connect the two. GO Transit's operating crew (Bombardier/Alstom contractors) are not qualified to cross the bridge either. None of this can't be fixed with money, as can CBSA staffing their office on the US side.


----------



## zephyr17

jiml said:


> My comment was specific to the GO proposal to cross the border into NY. Running the GO trains into Niagara Falls, NY, requires rehabilitation of the southernmost track, a switch at the west end and second platform to allow two trains to occupy the station simultaneously and ideally a pedestrian overpass to connect the two. GO Transit's operating crew (Bombardier/Alstom contractors) are not qualified to cross the bridge either. None of this can't be fixed with money, as can CBSA staffing their office on the US side.


Okay, I see I misinterpreted your answer and now see your point. Although I would like to understand the why GO would want to run into Niagara Falls, NY. It seems more than sufficient to just run increased service into Niagara Falls, ON. It needs more and better GO rail service and why hold that up for the complications of an international crossing? Not to be rude, but Niagara Falls, NY is kind of a pit. The majority of the tourist stuff and better views are on the Canadian side anyway. I can't conceive of Niagara Falls, NY being much of a destination for those in Greater Toronto, and it is easy enough to walk across the Rainbow Bridge for those for whom it is one. I just pass through there, though, I don't know the local conditions and driving forces. But I really am having a hard time getting my head around why GO would need or want to cross the border.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

zephyr17 said:


> My understanding is that is a requirement by CBP and CBSA for ever allowing the Vermonter to be re-extended back to Montreal. They won't support another train requiring onboard inspection.


I'm surprised they're able to dictate the terms of something like this. Seems like they need a change in management along with Amtrak.


----------



## zephyr17

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm surprised they're able to dictate the terms of something like this. Seems like they need a change in management along with Amtrak.


CBSA and CBP pretty much have the power to dictate whatever they want in terms of border requirements. CBSA was able to hold up the "second train" to Vancouver for months, finally bowed to it under the condition it was temporary for the Olympics only, then seriously threatened to withdraw the border inspections for it after thr Olympics were over. It took very serious pressure for months by the BC 
Provincial government and the city of Vancouver on the Canadian Feds to get them to agree. They didn't want to staff it.

Like most security, border security appears to be a one way ratchet. Politicians are loathe to second guess them, on the remote chance something may happen and CBP/CBSA would be able to say "well, we wanted to do it this way, which would have prevented/mitigated it, but we couldn't because XYZ stopped us". Especially for something that is small time chicken feed like train inspection.

Think TSA, but more so.


----------



## jiml

zephyr17 said:


> I really am having a hard time getting my head around why GO would need or want to cross the border.


I agree with you, however this was proposed in 2018/19 and I prefaced the thought it might resurface with "if". At that time Metrolinx was trying to acquire the entire line, including the bridge, from CN - the current owner/operator. The bottom line is that someone has to cross the bridge, whether it is Amtrak, VIA or GO. There was considerable speculation that GO would assume the entire route, including operation of the Maple Leaf or a connecting GO train. Schedules were issued showing 4 daily trains with one in each direction on almost exactly the Maple Leaf's schedule. Then Covid happened and who knows where everything landed. People at GO, CN and other sources have retired or been laid off and the first inkling of something happening is the Maple Leaf reappearing in Amtrak's schedule.


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## jiml

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm surprised they're able to dictate the terms of something like this. Seems like they need a change in management along with Amtrak.


Unfortunately their "management" are politicians.

Edited to remove political reference.


----------



## Amtrak25

Just as it will take appropriation bill language to order Amtrak management to overcome their arrogance and laziness to format public timetables, the same will have to be done to US Customs and CBSA to get back on board. Unless that happens, the Maple Leaf into Canada will, from a ridership and farebox recovery standpoint, remain a joke and a political train. There will no additional train service between the US and Canada, save a facility in Montreal, which the Quebec Provincial and Canadian governments show little interest in ever getting done. The Michigan folks and US Connect fans can draw maps to their hearts content; they evidently forgot the Sarnia/Port Huron fiasco. 

Getting off and on with luggage does not constitute a "thru" train. On buses I've taken from Montreal to Vermont, while the passengers get off, and the driver opens the luggage loaders, the luggage stays put unless an individual is told to go get it. On US-bound Amtrak, they also have to negotiate vestibule steps to the low level platform with everything in hand in all whether. Business class customers can't even occupy that car in Canada, and the Adirondack doesn't/didn't have any since Customs wants the entire car for "interviews".


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## zephyr17

Some weirdness in Amtrak.com for Maple Leaf, now that it is reservable. In all the following, note that CBN is a placeholder station representing the border (Canadian Border Niagara).

1. Coach is fine, no big issues booking TWO-NYP
2. On the simplified "one-way" interface, Business only shows available TWO-CBN on 7097 for an additional dollar, but it is unavailable CBN-NYP on 64.
3. Using a single segment on Multi-City, it shows Business available on 7097 TWO-CBN, and as "sold out" on 64 CBN-NYP.
4. On all through TWO-NYP single segment, both simplified one-way and Multi-City, Senior fares are available.
5. Business class is available on the same 64 departure NFL-NYP on an independent booking.
6. Using Muti-City to book a same day, two segment TWO-NFL and NFL-NYP on 7097 and 64 is bookable. TWO-NFL shows as multiple trains, 7097 TWO-CBN and 64 CBN-NFL and then the second segment NFL-NYP. Note CBN-NFL actually consists of walking out of the Customs area into the public area of the station.
6. Using two segment Multi-City, Business Class is available TWO-CBN on 7097, but sold out on "64" CBN-NFL (walking out of Customs). It shows available on 64 NFL-NYP.
7. Senior fares are unavailable on any two segment Multi-City.

When setting up the cross border operation of the Maple Leaf in Arrow, it appears they did not set up Business Class on phantom 64 CBN-NFL. That appears to be blocking any booking of Business Class past the border from Canadian points. Note that booking Business Class TWO-NYP had never been an issue prior to the COVID suspension, even if you weren't seated there TWO-NFL (I always was).


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> Just as it will take appropriation bill language to order Amtrak management to overcome their arrogance and laziness to format public timetables, the same will have to be done to US Customs and CBSA to get back on board. Unless that happens, the Maple Leaf into Canada will, from a ridership and farebox recovery standpoint, remain a joke and a political train. There will no additional train service between the US and Canada, save a facility in Montreal, which the Quebec Provincial and Canadian governments show little interest in ever getting done. The Michigan folks and US Connect fans can draw maps to their hearts content; they evidently forgot the Sarnia/Port Huron fiasco.
> 
> Getting off and on with luggage does not constitute a "thru" train. On buses I've taken from Montreal to Vermont, while the passengers get off, and the driver opens the luggage loaders, the luggage stays put unless an individual is told to go get it. On US-bound Amtrak, they also have to negotiate vestibule steps to the low level platform with everything in hand in all whether. Business class customers can't even occupy that car in Canada, and the Adirondack doesn't/didn't have any since Customs wants the entire car for "interviews".


Politicians won't touch that with a 10 ft poll. The upside is non-existent for them and the downsides to second guessing security oriented border services is potentially enormous, paranoid though those agencies may be. There isn't the faintest chance of seeing Congress or Parliament step in here.

On the BC- Washington border at the Pacific Highway border crossing _all_ luggage must removed from the bus and taken with you through customs in both directions. The same process was followed at Rainbow Bridge in Niagara Falls on my Maple Leaf bustitution in 2019, all luggage off and accompanying you, also in both directions. Montreal-Vermont may have different procedures, but completely clearing the bus and taking all luggage through inspection with you certainly appears to me to be a standard procedure for buses now since it is practiced by both agencies at different Ports of Entry thousands of miles apart. When did you last cross on a bus?

Finally, the "new" Niagara Falls, NY station has a high level platform. It is level with Amfleet vestibules and no steps need be negotiated there by US bound travelers. There is also a biggish platform canopy there so there is some protection from precipitation, if not wind and cold. Unfortunately that is not case at Niagara Falls, ON.

Every time I have been on the Maple Leaf in Business Class I have occupied the car in Canada. I realize from some other reports here, that is not always the case, but it certainly has been my experience


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

This must be quite a shock to Europeans that come here after experiencing the freedom of movement they have in the Schengen region even between countries that were formerly hostile to each other only a few decades ago, then to come here and find border formalities between 2 countries that have been friendly for 2 centuries resembling something from the old Iron Curtain.

Perhaps someday we will have a Schengen here between the US and Canada but probably not in my lifetime


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## Amtrak25

Passing through the Iron Curtain was far more efficient.
I last went from Montreal to Vermont on a bus in 2018.
On the Adirondack, I have noticed one is more apt for an inquisition if sitting in one of the bulkhead seats near the end of the car. They pull about 1/10 passengers for interviews. CBSA generally throw 1 - 3 people off the train at the border.


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> I last went from Montreal to Vermont on a bus in 2018.


Well, I would not count on no longer schlepping all my bags off the bus there any longer based on my experiences on buses at the Rainbow Bridge US and Canadian Ports of Entry in 2019 and both Pacific Highway Ports of Entry in 2022.

You may get lucky, but I would not bet on it.


----------



## Amtrak25

Still don't have to navigate steps with heavier luggage in hand off and on a bus. If Customs wants to be difficult on the Ontario side, they could put up a mini high level platform.


----------



## zephyr17

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Perhaps someday we will have a Schengen here between the US and Canada but probably not in my lifetime


I agree we appear to be going towards increasing border controls, not lowering them. While flashing a driver's license and answering where you born and being waved on wasn't Schengen, it was certainly easier than today's strict controls. But those days have been gone for decades now.


Amtrak25 said:


> Still don't have to navigate steps with heavier luggage in hand off and on a bus. If Customs wants to be difficult on the Ontario side, they could put up a mini high level platform.


Guessing you'll be choosing the bus then, since Amtrak is unlikely to be installing under car luggage holds.

Don't get your comment about the Ontario side at Niagara Falls. Mini-high level platforms would be an improvement over the low level platforms they have there, and not "being difficult" in my book.


----------



## Amtrak25

Vestibule steps are steep, slower to navigate, can be treacherous with heavy luggage in hand, can be slippery, and no canopy once off. With everyone getting off and on there, it prolongs the stop. A high level platform can have wider, gentler steps and a ramp. 

Yes, I would choose the bus, transfer at intermodal Rochester or Syracuse. The train is a non-starter, and its paltry loads prove it. It will never amount to anything, basically New York's version of the Shenandoah or Hilltopper, political trains and few ride them.


----------



## jis

Amtrak25 said:


> Vestibule steps are steep, slower to navigate, can be treacherous with heavy luggage in hand, can be slippery, and no canopy once off. With everyone getting off and on there, it prolongs the stop. A high level platform can have wider, gentler steps and a ramp.
> 
> Yes, I would choose the bus, transfer at intermodal Rochester or Syracuse. The train is a non-starter, and its paltry loads prove it. It will never amount to anything, basically New York's version of the Shenandoah or Hilltopper, political trains and few ride them.


Is it true that the Maple Leaf has significantly lower ridership in NY State upto Niagara Falls NY than the other West of Albany Empire Service? If not then it is not anything like Shenandoah or Hilltopper.

My impression is that it has low ridership beyond the border, and at that point it is mostly not New York's train. Indeed it has been running all this time as a New York west of Albany train and has been doing quite fine. New York really needs one or two more west of Albany trains, not less.


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## Amtrak25

I meant beyond the border.

Albany - NFL has been doing great the last year or so (without Canada), like April and May 2022 being 100% of 2019

ESPA's ridership counts calls west of Albany ridership "Maple Leaf".


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## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> Vestibule steps are steep, slower to navigate, can be treacherous with heavy luggage in hand, can be slippery, and no canopy once off. With everyone getting off and on there, it prolongs the stop. A high level platform can have wider, gentler steps and a ramp.


Well, Niagara Falls, NY does have high level platforms and a canopy now and has for quite a few years. The old station in the former Lehigh Valley freight house was a different matter, but the new station has been in service since at least November 2017 that I recall as the first trip I can say for sure used the new station. I roll my bag on and off just like at Penn.

BTW, the extremely long dwell, 5 minutes short of 2 hours, on an already long ride at CBN/NFL for border inspection is the main disincentive for me. Most times I've ridden it all passengers cleared Customs within about 30 minutes and then got to hang out in NFL for the best part of an hour and a half.

Then once onboard the Amtrak attendant didn't usually open for service until around BFX


----------



## zephyr17

zephyr17 said:


> Some weirdness in Amtrak.com for Maple Leaf, now that it is reservable. In all the following, note that CBN is a placeholder station representing the border (Canadian Border Niagara).
> 
> 1. Coach is fine, no big issues booking TWO-NYP
> 2. On the simplified "one-way" interface, Business only shows available TWO-CBN on 7097 for an additional dollar, but it is unavailable CBN-NYP on 64.
> 3. Using a single segment on Multi-City, it shows Business available on 7097 TWO-CBN, and as "sold out" on 64 CBN-NYP.
> 4. On all through TWO-NYP single segment, both simplified one-way and Multi-City, Senior fares are available.
> 5. Business class is available on the same 64 departure NFL-NYP on an independent booking.
> 6. Using Muti-City to book a same day, two segment TWO-NFL and NFL-NYP on 7097 and 64 is bookable. TWO-NFL shows as multiple trains, 7097 TWO-CBN and 64 CBN-NFL and then the second segment NFL-NYP. Note CBN-NFL actually consists of walking out of the Customs area into the public area of the station.
> 6. Using two segment Multi-City, Business Class is available TWO-CBN on 7097, but sold out on "64" CBN-NFL (walking out of Customs). It shows available on 64 NFL-NYP.
> 7. Senior fares are unavailable on any two segment Multi-City.
> 
> When setting up the cross border operation of the Maple Leaf in Arrow, it appears they did not set up Business Class on phantom 64 CBN-NFL. That appears to be blocking any booking of Business Class past the border from Canadian points. Note that booking Business Class TWO-NYP had never been an issue prior to the COVID suspension, even if you weren't seated there TWO-NFL (I always was).


Looks like they got Business Class booking largely straightened out today. Available on a single segment if you pick the multiple trains option on both the simplified and Multi-City option. Breaking it up TWO-NFL and NFL-NYP now shows Business Class on the phantom 64 CBN-NFL.

Today's weirdness is they added an 64 through option in addition to "multiple trains"(7097 and 64), but is unbookable, showing "sold out" . Amtrak.com always has surprises in store for the uninitiated.


----------



## daybeers

zephyr17 said:


> Amtrak.com always has surprises in store for the uninitiated.


Many surprises for the experts as well. It works for nobody, including Amtrak itself.


----------



## fdaley

jis said:


> Is it true that the Maple Leaf has significantly lower ridership in NY State upto Niagara Falls NY than the other West of Albany Empire Service? If not then it is not anything like Shenandoah or Hilltopper.
> 
> My impression is that it has low ridership beyond the border, and at that point it is mostly not New York's train. Indeed it has been running all this time as a New York west of Albany train and has been doing quite fine. New York really needs one or two more west of Albany trains, not less.



It's the cross-border ridership that has really plummeted over time. The long stop at the border has been a deterrent for at least the past two decades. After it was extended from 30 or 45 minutes to nearly two hours, lots of Canadian travelers began just driving across to NFL or BUF, which of course allows for many more schedule choices to points east. But the mandatory train evacuation with luggage has been gradually driving away the remaining ridership. East of NFL, it's heavily used.


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## zephyr17

daybeers said:


> Many surprises for the experts as well. It works for nobody, including Amtrak itself.


Almost certainly surprises the clueless devs at Amtrak when it is brought to their attention, too.


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## zephyr17

fdaley said:


> It's the cross-border ridership that has really plummeted over time. The long stop at the border has been a deterrent for at least the past two decades. After it was extended from 30 or 45 minutes to nearly two hours, lots of Canadian travelers began just driving across to NFL or BUF, which of course allows for many more schedule choices to points east. But the mandatory train evacuation with luggage has been gradually driving away the remaining ridership. East of NFL, it's heavily used.


The on train inspection on the Adirondack isn't exactly quick. Plus everyone onboard is denied restroom access during the entire time CBP/CBSA is on the train. At least in the Niagara Falls station you can answer nature's call once you are cleared, you don't have to wait for the whole train, including those pulled into secondary inspection in the cafe, to "go". Not a small consideration for seniors. I'd look at the dwell itself for the issue, not the inspection method. The dwell is wayyyyy too conservative, they need to get CN, CBSA, CBP, CSX to find ways to bring it down below worst possible case of severe delays (on the other guy's railroad, of course) plus terrorist passengers that it appears to be now. _Much _easier said than done, I know. But I am also quite convinced that CBSA and CBP are adamant about off train inspection, so other ways to improve things have to be found and shortening that dwell is an obvious one.

From NFL east, it is just another Empire Service train.


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## fdaley

Well, now that they've driven away most of the passengers, the two-hour stop that was needed to process 175 people seems really absurd if they only have 30 or 40 people on board, which was a more typical number before the pandemic. When we took the Maple Leaf eastbound in the winter of 2017, the train was cleared to go, and we carted all our stuff back on -- and then sat for nearly a full hour at NFL waiting for the schedule. 

But a shorter dwell time wouldn't convince me to use it for a family trip; it's the schlepping that's the deterrent. And then there's the contrast with driving across, where we're typically waved through after a couple of questions without ever having to move ourselves or our luggage.


----------



## neroden

zephyr17 said:


> CBSA and CBP pretty much have the power to dictate whatever they want in terms of border requirements. CBSA was able to hold up the "second train" to Vancouver for months, finally bowed to it under the condition it was temporary for the Olympics only, then seriously threatened to withdraw the border inspections for it after thr Olympics were over. It took very serious pressure for months by the BC
> Provincial government and the city of Vancouver on the Canadian Feds to get them to agree. They didn't want to staff it.
> 
> Like most security, border security appears to be a one way ratchet. Politicians are loathe to second guess them, on the remote chance something may happen and CBP/CBSA would be able to say "well, we wanted to do it this way, which would have prevented/mitigated it, but we couldn't because XYZ stopped us". Especially for something that is small time chicken feed like train inspection.
> 
> Think TSA, but more so.


It's a bit different on the US side where the Border Patrol and ICE have gotten an astoundingly bad reputation for a long list of crimes and atrocities, and Congress probably would be willing to override them on practically anything given enough attention -- but that hasn't happened to Canada's border services, which are still respected. Parliament is not going to override them anytime soon.


----------



## Amtrak25

zephyr17 said:


> The on train inspection on the Adirondack isn't exactly quick. Plus everyone onboard is denied restroom access during the entire time CBP/CBSA is on the train.



Not true about the bathrooms. Been there done that. They generally take 90 minutes. I have a time log for every trip since 2013.

Offboard inspections is about security theatre and lazy bureaucrats trying to force a train-off like they did with the International. They were getting obnoxious even before 9/11/01. Been there, done that too.


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## MARC Rider

Hey, the border controls at Niagara Falls are just like the border controls on the Turkish-Bulgarian border when riding the Bosfor Express.

Except that here in "advanced" North America, Both the Canadians and the Americans make the passengers get off the train. At least in the Balkans, only the Turks make you get off the train. (But you have to do the passport control/customs thing both leaving and entering each country, so one border crossing involves two passport control experiences. Better not let CBP and CBSA find out about that, or it might give them ideas.)


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> Not true about the bathrooms. Been there done that. They generally take 90 minutes. I have a time log for every trip since 2013.
> 
> Offboard inspections is about security theatre and lazy bureaucrats trying to force a train-off like they did with the International. They were getting obnoxious even before 9/11/01. Been there, done that too.


Yeah, 90 minutes sounds about right on the Adirondack as I recall it. That's quick?

I was pretty sternly told to return to my seat when I got up to use the restroom during the process the first time I rode it. They ultimately allowed me after some extensive pleading. So yes, I was able to use the restroom onboard, but just being able to walk over to the restroom in NFL was much less fraught.

The second time I rode I made sure and took a preventative pee shortly before the border, so I hadn't tested it since and I'll allow they may have relaxed their stance since that first time. Or maybe I was just unlucky and encountered a particularly officious CBP agent, there is no shortage of them. In any case, that stuck in my mind.


----------



## Amtrak25

They are done with 95% of the train in 40 minutes, but procrastinate with the few remaining to 90 minutes. It's a power trip. Sit on the right when on the southbound Adirondack and view the platform around the curve. When the platform lights go out, they are done, the HEP goes off while the engine cuts off idle and off you go 5 minutes later. 

Once they are done with most people in the car, they don't care about the bathroom or the water cooler for the duration. If they refuse you that, report them when you get home to the State Department. That probably violates the Geneva Accords. 

The station agent at Essex Jct once told me they transferred an obnoxious US Customs official (at a highway) to the Mexican border after several complaints. They really don't want to be written up.


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## zephyr17

As I recall it, it was between "passes" the Immigration pass was done and I hadn't realized there would be a second pass for Customs. I waited until Immigration agents were out of the car, then got up and the Customs guys came in while I was in the aisle.

Since my recollection is agents went back and forth through the car a couple of other times during the stop, not checking anyone but apparently going from point A to point B for whatever reason, the best course of action seemed to be just to stay put 

There's another thing, since they are all CBP now, why can't they just do both at once? Or at least do it together?


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## crescent-zephyr

I remember a passenger being scolded by US (is it customs that boards at the border on the Cascades?) for walking back from the restroom during the stop at the border when riding from Vancouver to Seattle.


----------



## MARC Rider

Bucharest to Istanbul by sleeper train Bosphorus-Express - review | railcc


From Bucharest to Istanbul by night train Bosphorus-Express. Experience with tickets from 50 Euro and Interrail. Journey time is 19 hours.




rail.cc





Here's a post about a 2019 trip on the Bosfor Express (it's actually one couchette car running between Bucharest and Istanbul that gets attached to different trains), including a pretty good account of the border control processes involved. I think going from Bucharest, you get checked leaving Romania, checked again entering Bulgaria (seems line about a 1 hour delay at each border control), checked when leaving Bulgaria (about 2 AM or so), then they roust you out to the platform a little while later when entering Turkey. No food service on the train, you need to stock up on groceries before you leave Bucharest, though there's a rather long layover in Dimitrovgrad, Bulgaria where one can possibly get dinner.

It's a 21 hour ride, but it doesn't seem like anything that an experienced Amtrak rider couldn't deal with (except maybe the Turkish border controls). Maybe we need to set up an Amtrak Unlimited field trip to check it out and see how it compares to an Amtrak ride.

I posted this here mainly because of the account of the border control processes involved, as compared to those of the USA and Canada. I would suppose than any additional discussion of the Bosfor Express should take place in a different thread.


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## Willbridge

Amtrak25 said:


> Not true about the bathrooms. Been there done that. They generally take 90 minutes. I have a time log for every trip since 2013.
> 
> Offboard inspections is about security theatre and lazy bureaucrats trying to force a train-off like they did with the International. They were getting obnoxious even before 9/11/01. Been there, done that too.


The former _Pacific International _suffered from several issues but the worst was having everyone walk on gravel with their luggage in the rain to be checked in a border office. My mother-in-law experienced that when visiting us.


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## Bonser

Amtrak25 said:


> Not true about the bathrooms. Been there done that. They generally take 90 minutes. I have a time log for every trip since 2013.
> 
> Offboard inspections is about security theatre and lazy bureaucrats trying to force a train-off like they did with the International. They were getting obnoxious even before 9/11/01. Been there, done that too.


I've taken the train to Montreal yearly until the suspension. The Canadian Border police were extremely polite and professional all the times I was on the train right past Rouses Pt. Perhaps 10 times in all. Hardly seemed like security theatre to me at least.


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## chickpea

jiml said:


> For which no tickets appear to be available:


FWIW you wrote that on Monday and I had terrible issues with the VIA website the same day! (And am in Canada, fwiw.) I wonder if it changed (have not finished thread catch up yet...).


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## JeninChicago

Does anyone know what a typical rail fare is on Amtrak from VAN to SEA? Got hoodwinked by Amtrak when scheduling in early May.....we thought we were on a train and now it's a bus. We'd like to make sure we're not paying a rail fare for a bus trip.


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## zephyr17

JeninChicago said:


> Does anyone know what a typical rail fare is on Amtrak from VAN to SEA? Got hoodwinked by Amtrak when scheduling in early May.....we thought we were on a train and now it's a bus. We'd like to make sure we're not paying a rail fare for a bus trip.


The station code for Vancouver, BC is VAC, not VAN. VAN is Vancouver, WA, across the Columbia from Portland, OR. There is plenty of rail service to VAN from SEA, 3 Cascades, plus the Coast Starlight.

The Saver fare SEA-VAC was in the neighborhood of $25-30, IIRC, but there are much more reliable ways to tell a bus from a train than trying to infer it from the fare.

A train will have a train icon, a bus a bus icon on the reservation page.

A Cascades train will have a 3 digit 5xx number, likely 516 for the northbound train and 519 for the southbound train that have the best chance of resuming first. A bus will have a 4 digit 8xxx number.

Finally there is no rail service to Vancouver loaded into the reservation system currently for any dates at all, right through the end of released inventory 11 months out. Everything to Vancouver, BC on Amtrak.com right now will be a bus.

Per Amtrak's May 6th letter to WSDOT and ODOT, the sponsors and funding source for the services, service to Vancouver is not expected to resume until December 2022. I would not expected trains to be loaded into the reservation system until operating plans for service resumption are firm.


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## WICT106

Still working on getting that train to Winnipeg … …


----------



## zephyr17

WICT106 said:


> Still working on getting that train to Winnipeg … …


Still working on resuming service to Montreal and Vancouver, which had service pre-COVID and have the necessary state support, since the runs are under 750 miles.

Somehow, I do not think it likely North Dakota will pony up the required subsidy any time soon..


----------



## williamn

I see from tweets that they are still persisting with the check-in desk nonsense at New York. Always seems bizarre that if you get on in New York and care Canada bound you have to check in and be given a luggage tag no one looks at, while this doesn't happen at any other stops enroute.


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## Amtrak25

Did they have the huge Maple Leaf national flag in front of the huge desk ?

If this was in Moynihan, what if you get on in Penn Station concourse ?

New York Gate Dragons love to impersonate Customs, look important, and make work for themselves with passport checks, bar-coded luggage tags to afix to your e-ticket (what if that is your phone ?) and hand out seat checks only to be lifted at the top of the stairs. If CBSA knew of that, they'd bend off laughing, and they do not laugh easily. Albany station staff simply does not regard that as part of their job description.

To avoid, take Metro North if you are nearer to that area from GCT to Yonkers or Harmon.

There will be no more international train routes between the US and Canada. Both countries are too stupid to set them up and run border checks efficiently.


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## williamn

Just saw it here: 

Given they've made new signage it seems like an official Amtrak initiative, with what seems like zero purpose.

I'll see for myself in a few weeks, though as I'm doing NYP-Utica and next day Utica- Toronto I'll presumably avoid these checks.


----------



## jis

williamn said:


> I'll see for myself in a few weeks, though as I'm doing NYP-Utica and next day Utica- Toronto I'll presumably avoid these checks.


I have done Utica to Toronto on that train in the past. Your documents will be chacked by the Conductor on board when your ticket is scanned. They will not let you cross the bridge on board at Niagara Falls unless you have the necessary documentation. They get fined if they bring undocumented riders across the border.


----------



## williamn

jis said:


> I have done Utica to Toronto on that train in the past. Your documents will be chacked by the Conductor on board when your ticket is scanned. They will not let you cross the bridge on board at Niagara Falls unless you have the necessary documentation. They get fined if they bring undocumented riders across the border.


Ah! That makes sense. Maybe I never noticed before as it seems like less bother than lining up at NYP and receiving your vital luggage tags!


----------



## JeninChicago

zephyr17 said:


> The station code for Vancouver, BC is VAC, not VAN. VAN is Vancouver, WA, across the Columbia from Portland, OR. There is plenty of rail service to VAN from SEA, 3 Cascades, plus the Coast Starlight.
> 
> The Saver fare SEA-VAC was in the neighborhood of $25-30, IIRC, but there are much more reliable ways to tell a bus from a train than trying to infer it from the fare.
> 
> A train will have a train icon, a bus a bus icon on the reservation page.
> 
> A Cascades train will have a 3 digit 5xx number, likely 516 for the northbound train and 519 for the southbound train that have the best chance of resuming first. A bus will have a 4 digit 8xxx number.
> 
> Finally there is no rail service to Vancouver loaded into the reservation system currently for any dates at all, right through the end of released inventory 11 months out. Everything to Vancouver, BC on Amtrak.com right now will be a bus.
> 
> Per Amtrak's May 6th letter to WSDOT and ODOT, the sponsors and funding source for the services, service to Vancouver is not expected to resume until December 2022. I would not expected trains to be loaded into the reservation system until operating plans for service resumption are firm.


Yes, I've read all the documentation regarding the suspension of the rail line. I've actually had issues with Amtrak here in the states 2x over the years. Mistakes that were 100% of their doing, so I am always leery with them. Their online booking system is fraught with issues - the route we purchased (in early May) never mentioned a bus. When looking now, the page has an icon of a train - with "Connecting Bus" listed....so we thought - ok - we may have to shuttle from one place to the next - not unheard of here in Chicago when dealing with the CTA, etc. Clicking that icon gives the site visitor the availability left in each "TRAIN".

There's really nothing we can do, there's no train available, it's just frustrating.


----------



## zephyr17

JeninChicago said:


> Yes, I've read all the documentation regarding the suspension of the rail line. I've actually had issues with Amtrak here in the states 2x over the years. Mistakes that were 100% of their doing, so I am always leery with them. Their online booking system is fraught with issues - the route we purchased (in early May) never mentioned a bus. When looking now, the page has an icon of a train - with "Connecting Bus" listed....so we thought - ok - we may have to shuttle from one place to the next - not unheard of here in Chicago when dealing with the CTA, etc. Clicking that icon gives the site visitor the availability left in each "TRAIN".
> 
> There's really nothing we can do, there's no train available, it's just frustrating.


I am no fan of Amtrak.com and their UI is both unfriendly and buggy.

I had a similar issue, for a trip in March this year that I booked in late 2021. At the time I booked it, the trains actually did show in inventory starting in January 2022, and they were trains (they had 5xx train numbers and I booked in Business Class which is not offered on the buses). While I had not received any email or other notification from Amtrak, the QR code disappeared from the reservation in the app and it said service cancelled. I had to call to get rebooked on the bus, it wasn't done automatically

The site again had shown train availability starting in early June in the system. They pulled that inventory in May, IIRC. It is likely if you didn't have to call they just automatically rebooked you, which is more than they did for me. They probably didn't do mine because my reservation was actually Everett-Vancouver and the bus doesn't stop in Everett, there were only two buses a day then so there was no Amtrak connection from Everett to Vancouver at the time (now there are 4 buses and Amtrak routes an Empire Builder to Seattle, then a later bus to Vancouver EVR-VAC). I took a commuter bus into Seattle to catch their bus, adding a hours to the trip, since I had to go south to Seattle, then ride back the exit the commuter bus got on I 5 on its way to Seattle 3 hours later. 

Right now there is no phantom, placeholder inventory (which is what the January and June inventory were) at all in the system at all which is a good thing. I doubt they are going to put inventory back in the system now until there are actually firm operational plans to restart.

I rode the Cascades to Vancouver pre-COVID frequently and am very familiar with the service. Your best indication is the number, as I said an 8xxx indicates a bus (technically an 8xxx number is a bus as an Amtrak Thruway codeshare on a scheduled non-Amtrak carrier, in this case Cantrail), a 5xx number is an Amtrak train.


----------



## zephyr17

JeninChicago said:


> the page has an icon of a train - with "Connecting Bus" listed....so we thought - ok - we may have to shuttle from one place to the next - not unheard of here in Chicago when dealing with the CTA, etc. Clicking that icon gives the site visitor the availability left in each "TRAIN".
> 
> There's really nothing we can do, there's no train available, it's just frustrating.


Just to clarify, that really is a bus icon.

The train icon looks like this:



The bus icon looks like this:



And mixed service where there is a train and a bus looks like this, with a "bus" in front of a "train".


----------



## WICT106

zephyr17 said:


> Still working on resuming service to Montreal and Vancouver, which had service pre-COVID and have the necessary state support, since the runs are under 750 miles.
> 
> Somehow, I do not think it likely North Dakota will pony up the required subsidy any time soon..


The service has been part of Minnesota's State Rail Plan for several years. No known input from ND.


----------



## zephyr17

WICT106 said:


> The service has been part of Minnesota's State Rail Plan for several years. No known input from ND.


As long as Minnesota pays for it, since somebody's got to if they want it to happen. I said North Dakota since it is the closest state and the last state any service to Winnipeg would pass through. Adjacent Washington provides the subsidy for the Cascades to Vancouver, and New York for the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack, so the border state paying for service made the most logical sense.

Nice of Minnesota to let North Dakota have a free train, though. Since I am wholly ignorant of Minnesota's position and had not even heard of a serious effort to start a Winnipeg train, how hard are they pushing for it and how committed are they to funding it?


----------



## zephyr17

williamn said:


> Just saw it here:
> 
> Given they've made new signage it seems like an official Amtrak initiative, with what seems like zero purpose.
> 
> I'll see for myself in a few weeks, though as I'm doing NYP-Utica and next day Utica- Toronto I'll presumably avoid these checks.



Couldn't quite figure out its placement in Moynihan from the pics. Where did they set up? I recall the Canada check-in desk at Penn was usually set up on the 31st St side not far from Baggage.

And is it still do the Canada check in first, separately from the boarding line-up?


----------



## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> As long as Minnesota pays for it, since somebody's got to if they want it to happen. I said North Dakota since it is the closest state and the last state any service to Winnipeg would pass through. Adjacent Washington provides the subsidy for the Cascades to Vancouver, and New York for the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack, so I just extended it to something similar.
> 
> Nice of Minnesota to let North Dakota be a free rider.


I have a soft spot for the Winnipeg service, having ridden the daylight NP train long ago. However, there were more Canadian connections back then. When combined with lack of interest by North Dakota and likely border hassles it doesn't seem to be a serious possibility.


----------



## zephyr17

Willbridge said:


> I have a soft spot for the Winnipeg service, having ridden the daylight NP train long ago. However, there were more Canadian connections back then. When combined with lack of interest by North Dakota and likely border hassles it doesn't seem to be a serious possibility.


Yeah, CBP and CBSA would likely be pretty resistent to even serving another train, passenger hassles aside. They tanked the International and CBSA did its damndest to stop the second Seattle-Vancouver train. With twice a week service on the Canadian and it often being hours late at Winnipeg both directions, connections would be iffy at best.

Any prospect for a connecting bus to reinstated? There was a Winnipeg connecting bus one for years that connected to the Builder, though I don't recall where it did it, Grand Forks? Minot?


----------



## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> Yeah, CBP and CBSA would likely be pretty resistent to even serving another train, passenger hassles aside. They tanked the International and CBSA did its damndest to stop the second Seattle-Vancouver train. With twice a week service on the Canadian and it often being hours late at Winnipeg both directions, connections would be iffy at best.
> 
> Any prospect for a connecting bus to reinstated? There was a Winnipeg connecting bus one for years that connected to the Builder, though I don't recall where it did it, Grand Forks? Minot?


With the intercity bus industry in the shape it's in that would only happen if there was a big subsidy. Right now, if there's even a carrier between Winnipeg and Grand Forks they're not participating in the National Bus Traffic Association.

One problem in setting up a Thruway connection for long distance trains is that unless it's subsidized, the Sold Out conditions on the trains, combined with long delays on both the Canadian and U.S. train connections, combined with less than daily service, and sometimes no agent at the connecting point make it a risky proposition.


----------



## jiml

Given that Winnipeg is not a "destination", a cross-border train seems really unlikely. Even within VIA's lifetime though, it was served by multiple daily domestic trains. Now with the Canadian's schedule and timekeeping it would be difficult to plan a connection of any kind. It's too bad, since decent well-used tracks cross the border on the route, reducing any potential cost.


----------



## GAT

jiml said:


> Given that Winnipeg is not a "destination" ,,,


And why would it be??? (Don't get mad at me. I'm just an old Canadian following the long-time Canadian tradition of bashing Winnipeg.  Happy 155th birthday, Canada!)


----------



## JeninChicago

zephyr17 said:


> Just to clarify, that really is a bus icon.
> 
> The train icon looks like this:
> View attachment 28747
> 
> 
> The bus icon looks like this:
> View attachment 28748
> 
> 
> And mixed service where there is a train and a bus looks like this, with a "bus" in front of a "train".
> View attachment 28749


Yes, I know. It's showing that now, but it did not at the time. However - the middle image being displayed is clearly still a train and the verbiage displayed on hover over says "train". Also - if there isn't a "legend" that shows that mixed service icon, and there isn't mixed service available, how would one even know it exists?

Again, not a dang thing we can do about it, but Amtrak needs to get it together.


----------



## jebr

zephyr17 said:


> Nice of Minnesota to let North Dakota have a free train, though. Since I am wholly ignorant of Minnesota's position and had not even heard of a serious effort to start a Winnipeg train, how hard are they pushing for it and how committed are they to funding it?



It's in a few plans and potential future maps, and that's about it. If Minnesota ever gets truly serious about passenger rail, I'd expect it to be a pretty low priority, unfortunately. MSP - Duluth, MSP - Fargo/Grand Forks, MSP - Kansas City, and even MSP - Sioux Falls are likely to be bigger priorities.

That said, depending on the routing you could probably have most of the stations in Minnesota, though by doing so you'd be skipping both Fargo and Grand Forks, while picking up destinations that are much smaller.



Willbridge said:


> With the intercity bus industry in the shape it's in that would only happen if there was a big subsidy. Right now, if there's even a carrier between Winnipeg and Grand Forks they're not participating in the National Bus Traffic Association.



For a while there was a private operator out of Winnipeg that offered shuttles to Grand Forks. Jefferson Lines dabbled in a Winnipeg service a few years ago, though the connection times weren't great and there was no interlining between Amtrak or VIA (and I think they used different stations too.) It was dropped after about six months.


----------



## Amtrak25

I rode Jefferson Lines from Grand Forks to Winnipeg in 2003. The service had been around a few years, may have been a Thruway bus contractor with another bus company prior to then, and connected with the Empire Builder. The name "Triangle" comes to mind. JL ran it twice a day. I had gotten off the Empre Builder at West Grand Forks at 5am and took a taxi into town, ate breakfast at a tacky Harvey's adjacent to a tacky bus depot.

It was a July 1, Canada Day. There were just two of us on the bus and one automobile at the border. Canadian Customs was polite but wanted to me to get my luggage off the bus, search it, see my VIA Rail ticket to Sudbury, though I told him I was to get it at Winnipeg staion, but showed him my itinerary, which had me leaving Canada on the Maple Leaf a week hence. What he really wanted to know is when an American is getting out of the country. He also stamped my passport and wrote July 8 on it. No Canadian official had stamped my passport, ever or since. He basically had nothing to do but focus on me.

Several years hence, Jefferson Lines ran the business down, first cutting one frequency, then diverting the other from the Winnipeg downtown bus terminal to the airport, then killed it, disliking having to put up with Customs.

Winnipeg is a major Canadian city, but with VIA Rail being what it is, some small replacement bus companies, and Greyhound's demise, there is not much public transportation to network with, for a bus or a train.

Great Falls - Shelby Amtrak (who wrote bus tickets) - Sweetgrass - Coutts, direct connection to Greyhound Canada at the border to Calgary - that was different matter, averaged 21 passengers per trip, but Rimrock Trailways was financially failing, flunking US-DOT inspections, and killed it because they said their break even point was 25 (then run a smaller bus). Very hard to bring back now even though there was a proven market, though there is county bus service between Shelby and Sweetgrass, but nothing on the Alberta side.


----------



## Chris I

Vancouver, BC service moved up to September:


https://www.theolympian.com/news/state/washington/article263113328.html



Doesn't looks like it is in the system yet.


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## zephyr17

Chris I said:


> Vancouver, BC service moved up to September:
> 
> 
> https://www.theolympian.com/news/state/washington/article263113328.html
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't looks like it is in the system yet.


Confirm that. Just got an email from Washington Department of Transportation announcing it. The announcement isn't even on amtrakcascades.com yet as of a few minutes ago.

Now I don't have to take the bus in November!


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## jiml

Amtrak25 said:


> Winnipeg is a major Canadian city


See Post #309.


----------



## zephyr17

GAT said:


> And why would it be??? (Don't get mad at me. I'm just an old Canadian following the long-time Canadian tradition of bashing Winnipeg.  Happy 155th birthday, Canada!)


I dunno. I kinda like Winterpeg. VIA marooned me there once...


----------



## WICT106

zephyr17 said:


> As long as Minnesota pays for it, since somebody's got to if they want it to happen. I said North Dakota since it is the closest state and the last state any service to Winnipeg would pass through. Adjacent Washington provides the subsidy for the Cascades to Vancouver, and New York for the Maple Leaf and the Adirondack, so the border state paying for service made the most logical sense.
> 
> Nice of Minnesota to let North Dakota have a free train, though. Since I am wholly ignorant of Minnesota's position and had not even heard of a serious effort to start a Winnipeg train, how hard are they pushing for it and how committed are they to funding it?


See here : https://www.dot.state.mn.us/planning/railplan/2015report/3.pdf


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## WICT106

zephyr17 said:


> I dunno. I kinda like Winterpeg. VIA marooned me there once...


I like Winnipeg, too. While between guiding canoe trips, I was able to spend days off in Winnipeg. It has its' downsides, but it was a vibrant city when compared to the tiny towns where Canoe Bases where located.


----------



## DaveW

A Seattle television station reported today the run from Seattle to Vancouver BC will start in September. I do not see it on schedule yet.


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## zephyr17

DaveW said:


> A Seattle television station reported today the run from Seattle to Vancouver BC will start in September. I do not see it on schedule yet.


The WSDOT announcement was quite general and said details will follow. No specific date was mentioned, just "September". I do not expect that it will show up in any form on Amtrak.com, either in schedules or reservations, until all the operational details are fully worked out, including a specific service resumption date.

The resumption of the Maple Leaf to Toronto this last Monday did not show up in schedules or reservations until about a week before service started. I would not expect to see Vancouver rail service bookable or in schedules until at least August at the earliest.


----------



## Mailliw

What are the odds service to Montreal resumes by December? I have vacation time that I need to use by years end.


----------



## zephyr17

Mailliw said:


> What are the odds service to Montreal resumes by December? I have vacation time that I need to use by years end.


Nobody will know until it is announced.

The issues are:
1. Condition of the CN Rouses Point Sub from Southwark (near St. Lambert) to Rouses Point. For CN it is effectively a low speed industrial lead. It hasn't been maintained to any revenue passenger service requirements since the COVID service suspension, and CN in Canada is not subject to Amtrak access statutes or regulations.
2. Crew staffing
3. CBSA and CBP willingness to resume onboard inspections. While the long term solution is a facility in Gare Central in Montreal for both, the ball has apparently been dropped for that and onboard inspection will be required for any near term resumption of service. Neither CBSA nor CBP like onboard inspection and are resistant to it, notwithstanding the opinions of several posters here.

My estimate of resumption of Adirondack service by December is no more than 50/50. Much depends on how much New York State, which contracts for the service, is willing to press it.


----------



## jiml

^This.^
While #2 and #3 have drawn the most recent discussion, #1 is the forgotten "elephant in the room" that was already becoming an issue pre-Covid. An all-CP routing was at least considered, but there has been nothing new there in the past year.


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## Amtrak25

In Quebec, the welded rail portion was 49 MPH, the jointed rail portions were 30 MPH. I presume some of the latter is now down to 10MPH. Only political pressure on CN to upgrade it will work, or I'm afraid the Adirondack will become like the Sunset Ltd-East or Fort Wayne Line, unless they use the CP into EXO's crummy little Montreal terminal, and forget about extending the Vermonter into Canada.


----------



## jiml

Amtrak25 said:


> In Quebec, the welded rail portion was 49 MPH, the jointed rail portions were 30 MPH. I presume some of the latter is now down to 10MPH. Only political pressure on CN to upgrade it will work, or I'm afraid the Adirondack will become like the Sunset Ltd-East or Fort Wayne Line, unless they use the CP into EXO's crummy little Montreal terminal, and forget about extending the Vermonter into Canada.


Don't forget "EXO's crummy little Montreal terminal" is within fairly easy connected walking distance of Central station, with access to hotels and other services, and it's not like the Adirondack really connects to VIA anyway.


----------



## Amtrak25

I know that, and I would fully support rerouting the Adirondack there. Part of the line down to Candiac already has commuter trains. A stop at Montreal West would be nice too. Amtrak seems to have a pretty good relationship with the CP.


----------



## Urban Sky

A problem will be how the trains would reach VIA’s Montreal Maintenance Center (assuming trains would still get serviced there) from Lucien-L’Allier. There is a connection between CN’s Taschereau Yard and CP’s Cote Saint-Luc Yard, but they’d still need to reverse direction somewhere on CP territory…


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## Amtrak25

Urban Sky said:


> A problem will be how the trains would reach VIA’s Montreal Maintenance Center (assuming trains would still get serviced there) from Lucien-L’Allier. There is a connection between CN’s Taschereau Yard and CP’s Cote Saint-Luc Yard, but they’d still need to reverse direction somewhere on CP territory…



What did they until the early 1980's ? Contract with EXO at their Montreal West facility to service it.

I'd imagine the Vermont advocates wouldn't like this either, pinning their hopes on a Customs facility in Montreal Central, which is never going to happen. Quebec Provincial government trashed the plans and started over with a new election. They'll probably do that again after their next election. EXO is not longer interested in commuter service on the Rousses Pt subdivision to St Jean. Federal government in Ottawa certainly doesn't care about anything except the Quebec -Toronto corridor.


----------



## JWM

I'd be reasonably certain that both Canadian and American customs will want one station in MTL and that would be Central Station. The Adirondack would have to use the route prior to Covid interruption which is via St. Lambert. The St. Lambert stop can be eliminated which would allow customs clearance by both countries at Central Station.


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## Amtrak25

JWM said:


> I'd be reasonably certain that both Canadian and American customs will want one station in MTL and that would be Central Station. The Adirondack would have to use the route prior to Covid interruption which is via St. Lambert. The St. Lambert stop can be eliminated which would allow customs clearance by both countries at Central Station.


The point is the Rousses Pt sub may be a lost cause due to the CN. They are the biggest obstacle. If Customs is set up at the border on the CP rather than the CN since that is where they always had it prior to the Covid suspension, they do not care which terminal the train has in Montreal. If the politicians roll over and do not force on-train inspections, then consider the Adirondack route dead because nothing will be built at Gare Central.


----------



## JWM

See link in the "Montreal Gazette" from March, 2022 below.









Quebec budget 2022: $1M to study customs clearance at Central Station


Trains between Montreal and New York would no longer have to stop at the U.S. border.




montrealgazette.com


----------



## Amtrak25

JWM said:


> See link in the "Montreal Gazette" from March, 2022 below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quebec budget 2022: $1M to study customs clearance at Central Station
> 
> 
> Trains between Montreal and New York would no longer have to stop at the U.S. border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montrealgazette.com



How nice. They had been "studying" it for many years, shreaded it after a provincial election, started over, and disregards the CN problem. Consultants will spend a few years drawing pictures and presenting it to officals, who will say do this, do that, we don't like this part or that. Then they have to fund construction.

If they really wanted it to happen, they wouldn't have shreaded the plans that were in place. 

It will never happen.


----------



## jiml

JWM said:


> I'd be reasonably certain that both Canadian and American customs will want one station in MTL and that would be Central Station. The Adirondack would have to use the route prior to Covid interruption which is via St. Lambert. The St. Lambert stop can be eliminated which would allow customs clearance by both countries at Central Station.


Just to second @Amtrak25, it doesn't matter which Montreal station is the one station you're referring to. No Customs inspection by either country was happening in-station prior to the train's discontinuance. I haven't walked around Lucien L'Allier in a couple of years, so can't say whether there'd be room for a facility there or not. The bottom line is no one is going to spend significant capital for one daily train.


----------



## jiml

Now if there was a way to route Amtrak services via Dorval we'd be onto something. Customs officers for both countries are right there.


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## Amtrak25

jiml said:


> Just to second @Amtrak25, it doesn't matter which Montreal station is the one station you're referring to. No Customs inspection by either country was happening in-station prior to the train's discontinuance. I haven't walked around Lucien L'Allier in a couple of years, so can't say whether there'd be room for a facility there or not. The bottom line is no one is going to spend significant capital for one daily train.



Well maybe two trains, if the Vermonter ever get there, 
if CN's improves the Rousses Pt sub north of La Colle to Castle Gardens, 
if Vermont funds CN's infrastucture improvements north of St Albans to Cantic, like automating a bridge's operation and remote control of a switch.


----------



## flitcraft

flitcraft said:


> WashDOT is furious with Amtrak over the newly announced delay in resuming the Cascades to Vancouver BC, because the Cascades can't cover the Washington stops north of Seattle till Vancouver is back. Ironically, the quotes from WashDOT in the Seattle Times (firewalled, sorry) complain that Amtrak is prioritizing LD trains like resuming 7 day service on the Empire Builder over the state supported corridor service like the Cascades. Amtrak's excuse is that they are short conductors--however, it appears that the Amtrak job listings out of Seattle do not include conductors.
> 
> I've ridden the Cascades north to Vancouver and to Bellingham frequently over the years, and it is a pain to get up there without the train.


----------



## Amtrak25

The Empire Builder only used the "corridor" between Seattle and Everett. Amtrak priortized 7 day a week operation because Congress told them to. WashDOT should be criticizing Amtrak for their half-baked attempts at hiring crew, not attacking the national network.


----------



## JWM

Amtrak25 said:


> Well maybe two trains, if the Vermonter ever get there,
> if CN's improves the Rousses Pt sub north of La Colle to Castle Gardens,
> if Vermont funds CN's infrastucture improvements north of St Albans to Cantic, like automating a bridge's operation and remote control of a switch.


As a Vermont resident for 16 years, I have to state that Vermont, while being a great supporter of passenger rail, has a population of 647,000 estimated in 2022. It took years to upgrade the former Rutland Railroad route from Rutland to Bennington so the Ethan Allen could be extended to Burlington. New York and Vermont both subsidize that service. While wanting to extend the Vermonter to Montreal from St. Albans, I doubt if the funds are there for more expediture.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

JWM said:


> As a Vermont resident for 16 years, I have to state that Vermont, while being a great supporter of passenger rail, has a population of 647,000 estimated in 2022. It took years to upgrade the former Rutland Railroad route from Rutland to Bennington so the Ethan Allen could be extended to Burlington. New York and Vermont both subsidize that service. While wanting to extend the Vermonter to Montreal from St. Albans, I doubt if the funds are there for more expenditure.


Plus a restored Montreal train to be useful would most likely need to run overnight like the old Montrealer which would mean stopping in VT in the middle of the night, not something VT is likely to subsidize. In a country that actually cared about rail service the Montreal train would be a new overnight train in addition to the Vermonter but then Amtrak would have to pay for it itself which isn't going to happen under our present dysfunctional arrangement.


----------



## Anderson

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Plus a restored Montreal train to be useful would most likely need to run overnight like the old Montrealer which would mean stopping in VT in the middle of the night, not something VT is likely to subsidize. In a country that actually cared about rail service the Montreal train would be a new overnight train in addition to the Vermonter but then Amtrak would have to pay for it itself which isn't going to happen under our present dysfunctional arrangement.


As always, it depends...

Looking at the best timetable I can find, SAB-NYP is about a 10-hour run (I found one with a 9:55 run SB [1]). It might or might not be accurate, but since Amtrak won't give out a timecard anymore it's what I'm going to work with.

Let's presume that the "no go" hours for a given stop are 0000-0559. I'd note that a straight 12-hour "flip" SB would have every stop in Vermont covered prior to midnight save for Brattleboro, and you'd still get into NYP just after 0600. So this does not seem like an unreasonable schedule. Sliding it around a little bit (and perhaps adding a minimal additional pad at SPG or NHV) would get you into Brattleboro before midnight and hit NYP at just after 0600. NB, it takes a _little_ bit more fiddling, but I think you can either get every stop or close to it outside of the graveyard shift. By the way, one other viable option here would be to just add a few intermediate stops (e.g. the various Springfield Line stops and NRO) as a method of "padding without padding". Given the operational hours, demand would probably be light (but would not, in aggregate, be _zero_, I suspect).

The bottom line is that Vermont might be willing to sponsor a train that provides access to Montreal in the morning/from Montreal in the evening and which provides access to NYC and points south without killing most or all of a day en route.

Edit: I would note that this was the Montrealer's schedule SB. NB, service to Vermont was pretty well buried in the middle of the night (as a consequence of trying to serve WAS-NYP earlier). I suspect that could be worked around. I'd also note that in an ideal world, VA and VT would be able to talk out a cost-sharing deal on a train since VA has a bit of a problem with "too many routes and too few trains" in the afternoon/evening. Honestly, arranging for a big pad for both of them and running one train Hampton Roads-Washington and another Roanoke/New River-Washington and then sending one off to Montreal while the other goes to Boston isn't actually _that_ unreasonable, and the "new" evening train out of Newport News is timed almost _perfectly_ for the above.


[1] Amtrak - Vermonter Timetable


----------



## Amtrak25

You are right, a 12 hour flip, give or take an hour, would work for every city except Brattleboro.

But unless CN upgrades their track north of La Colle from 10 MPH back to 49MPH, I see no mechanism to make CN do so, and this is all academic. The Quebec consultants can draw pictures and play all they want with pre-clearance facility plans for Montreal Central, it won't have an impact.


----------



## west point

Our family took the Montrealer one Jan to ski at Killington. There was a very large lively group going. Took quite a time getting to hotel. However weather crapped out and rained all snow away. We all fled but Amtrak was able to carry us back on a very crowded southbound. It was NYP before we did not have to share seats. All the skiiers liked being able to get in a non hoteel day skiing. Now how well travel would be in shoulder seasons ?? Summer should be high traffic.


----------



## jis

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts on Canadian border crossing procedures and requirements have been moved to their own thread at:






Canadian border crossing requirements, procedures and experiences on Amtrak


Just to further complicate matters Canada today extended incoming travel measures, including the ArriveCan nonsense, to September 30: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/canada-extends-covid-19-border-measures-for-incoming-travellers/ar-AAZ0RiT?li=AAggNb9




www.amtraktrains.com





Please continue the border crossing procedures and requirements discussion on that thread and leave this thread for discussing Resumption of Amtrak service to Canada

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


----------



## jis

Cascade service to Vancouver BC returning in September...



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/amtrak-vancouver-seattle-september-1.6508603


----------



## Mailliw

Full restoration of the Adirondack is still in limbo. At this point I'd be grateful if it went as far as Plattsburgh with a bus connection to Montreal. 









Return of Amtrak ‘Adirondack’ route in limbo


The pandemic has eased but the “Adirondack” Amtrak train route from Montreal to New York City remains shut down. North Country officials say the service is an essential source of transportation for those in the region and are calling for answers.




www.wcax.com


----------



## enviro5609

Mailliw said:


> Full restoration of the Adirondack is still in limbo. At this point I'd be grateful if it went as far as Plattsburgh with a bus connection to Montreal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Return of Amtrak ‘Adirondack’ route in limbo
> 
> 
> The pandemic has eased but the “Adirondack” Amtrak train route from Montreal to New York City remains shut down. North Country officials say the service is an essential source of transportation for those in the region and are calling for answers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wcax.com


One silver lining from the article.

Good to see that both Sens. Schumer and Gillibrand signed a letter to Gardner asking about the Adirondack. It reads pretty pointedly. Given the obstacles Amtrak is facing with CN and the track, its going to take that kind of pressure from these kinds of politicians to get any movement. 



https://webpubcontent.gray.tv/wcax/docs/2022-07-08%20Letter%20to%20Amtrak%20-%20Adirondack%20Line%20FINAL.pdf


----------



## Amtrak25

Stupid article, poorly researched, uniformed quotes from the Chamber of Commerce, then the two US Senators demanding answers from Amtrak. They should instead of or in addition to be going after CN's CEO.

The main problem is CN in Canada, where over half of the 48 route miles are down to 10MPH, new contract with EXO for last mile into Montreal Central needs to be done, and Customs is making an issue of onboard inspections.

They can't relay a train in Plattsburgh, or anywhere north of Saratoga in the US for that matter. 75% of the patronage north of Albany is headed for Montreal.

Greyhound has only seen fit to maintain one frequency on the Boston - Burlington - Montreal route out of the 4 pre-Covid. But most pre-Covid I-87 Northway bus service is back. Adirondack Trailways has 2 frequencies, plus an extra one tri-weekly, and Greyhound has 2 of its original 3 frequencies for the pooled service. Not that Greyhound is run by mental giants, but do they know something we don't - capitalizing on a situation that the Adirondack train is out long term or forever?

And forget the Port Kent ferry. 2 of the 3 boats have been scrapped, the pier at Burlington has been turned into smaller boat rental facility, and they want to lease the terminal to a restaurant. The ferry company is not subsidized, not regulated, and can do whatever it wants.


----------



## AmtrakMaineiac

Anderson said:


> The bottom line is that Vermont might be willing to sponsor a train that provides access to Montreal in the morning/from Montreal in the evening and which provides access to NYC and points south without killing most or all of a day en route.


That might work if there is preclearance in Montreal for the southbound trip, not so good if they turf passengers out at the border for inspection in the middle of the night.


----------



## Oreius

They need to have a ribbon-cutting ceremony at Penn Station and at Rouses Point when they restart the Adirondack!! That would be cool! I’d go.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Has there been any indication as to which of the two Vancouver Cascades trips will be restored? I found an article specifying that there will initially only be one round trip per day, but it didn't mention which one.


----------



## Urban Sky

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Has there been any indication as to which of the two Vancouver Cascades trips will be restored? I found an article specifying that there will initially only be one round trip per day, but it didn't mention which one.


Presumably the one which doesn’t require crew and equipment to layover in Vancouver or station staff to work in split shifts…


----------



## zephyr17

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Has there been any indication as to which of the two Vancouver Cascades trips will be restored? I found an article specifying that there will initially only be one round trip per day, but it didn't mention which one.


Almost certainly the 516/519 morning north/evening south pair.


----------



## Anderson

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> That might work if there is preclearance in Montreal for the southbound trip, not so good if they turf passengers out at the border for inspection in the middle of the night.


If you look at the old Montrealer schedule, the SB crossed the border at about 1900. That's hardly "the middle of the night". Likewise, you'd want to move the NB schedule so it crossed the border sometime around 0900 or 1000 if you wanted to make sure that you hit most or all of Vermont after 0600.


----------



## Mailliw

That schedule still allows for convenient overnight travel between NYC and Montreal/Vermont. Even without preclearance the border crossing is at a reasonable time.


----------



## Amtrak25

If the Vermonter ever gets to Montreal, it would not get there until at least 10:30pm, and then one has to go through pre-clearance, unless they run it earlier by having its southern terminus be NYC rather than DC. Not attractive.

I am all for putting it back on the Montrealer's schedule, even an hour of dwell time added in Springfield, MA to make for better times in Vermont. Then extend the Ethan Allen to Essex Jct and St Albans.

Whichever, there is no extending it to Montreal unless pre-clearance is built and certain infrastuctural demands on CN are made as well.


----------



## ChuckL

Pre-Covid Cascades Service between Seattle and Vancouver BC Schedule

Prior to the discontinuation of Cascades service between Seattle and Vancouver BC due to the pandemic, could anyone tell me what the former schedules were like? How many trains were there in each direction, and what were the approximate departure times from each city and the length of the trip? Thanks!


----------



## niemi24s

Here it (and all the others) is: Amtrak


----------



## zephyr17

ChuckL said:


> Pre-Covid Cascades Service between Seattle and Vancouver BC Schedule
> 
> Prior to the discontinuation of Cascades service between Seattle and Vancouver BC due to the pandemic, could anyone tell me what the former schedules were like? How many trains were there in each direction, and what were the approximate departure times from each city and the length of the trip? Thanks!


There were two round trips, the Seattle-Vancouver morning north/evening south 516/519 pair, and the Portland-Vancouver afternoon/evening north, morning south pair 517/518.

The trip length between Seattle and Vancouver was approximately 4 hours. The southbound trains had additional time in their schedule for the onboard US Customs check at Blaine, WA. CBP did US Immigration at Vancouver in sort of a Preclearance-light, but customs on US soil.

516 left Seattle at 7:45 am and arrived Vancouver 11:45 am

519 left Vancouver at 5:45 pm and arrived Seattle at 10:10 pm.

518 left Portland at 3:00 pm, arrived Seattle at 6:30 pm, left Seattle at 7:00 pm and arrived Vancouver 11:00 pm.

517 left Vancouver at 6:35 am, arrived Seattle at 11:00 am, left Seattle at 11:30 am and arrived Portland at 3:00 pm.

Seattle was a service stop for 517/518 and the cafe was restocked there.

I expect when service resumes, the first train back will be the 516/519 or its equivalent, morning north, evening south.


----------



## coalman

I saw articles about service to Vancouver, Canada opening in September, but I could not book online, through train service in 2022. Is there any information on when service to Vancouver, Canada will resume?


----------



## zephyr17

coalman said:


> I saw articles about service to Vancouver, Canada opening in September, but I could not book online, through train service in 2022. Is there any information on when service to Vancouver, Canada will resume?


Nothing more than the somewhat vague announcement from WSDOT that service will resume in September.

If the resumption of the Maple Leaf to Toronto is any guide, reservations only opened about one week before service resumed.

WSDOT has pretty much said only one round trip to start.

My own speculation is:
1. Service will not resume until the very end of the month.
2. The single daily round trip will be thr morning north/evening south pair that ran as 516/519 before COVID
3. We will not see a second train until WSDOT's Venture car order is in service.


----------



## zephyr17

Was fooling around with the new "route" option in scheduling and found something interesting.

Using the "Route option" and choosing the Amtrak Cascades and Adirondack routes, all service to Canada is there! Adirondack goes through to Montreal and BOTH train pairs to/from Vancouver show.

Using the "Station option" and choosing VAC-SEA and MTL-NYP, there is not service (which there actually isn't).

More kudos for those crack (on crack?) developers at Amtrak IT!


----------



## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> Was fooling around with the new "route" option in scheduling and found something interesting.
> 
> Using the "Route option" and choosing the Amtrak Cascades and Adirondack routes, all service to Canada is there! Adirondack goes through to Montreal and BOTH train pairs to/from Vancouver show.
> 
> Using the "Station option" and choosing VAC-SEA and MTL-NYP, there is not service (which there actually isn't).
> 
> More kudos for those crack (on crack?) developers at Amtrak IT!


In another dimension we may find the _Pioneer_, too.


----------



## zephyr17

Willbridge said:


> In another dimension we may find the _Pioneer_, too.


I'm hoping for the North Coast Hiawatha...


----------



## Bob Dylan

zephyr17 said:


> I'm hoping for the North Coast Hiawatha...


And the Desert Wind thru Vegas!


----------



## JWM

One round trip a day for now. Link is Amtrak Is Restarting One of Its Most Scenic Routes Just in Time for Fall Getaways


----------



## thully

A couple months too late for my trip, though I enjoyed the ferries. Would do this next time I end up in Seattle/Vancouver though. If this had been running then and I had done VIA Corridor from Windsor, it could have been all rail except for Detroit-Windsor (and could be all-rail going by Chicago/Buffalo). Could make a same-day connection to/from the Canadian with this round-trip, though not the Empire Builder.


----------



## zephyr17

Confirm that tickets are for sale on the website for trains 516 and 519.

Business Class is through the roof compared to what it was at $105 SEA-VAC. $34 for coach. Think it might be linked only to the full Flex fare at $80, as $25 surcharge for Business is in line with what it had been. The Maple Leaf fares were screwy for the first few days after it came back in the system, so we'll see.

I think I may wait a couple days to shift my screwy Builder Everett-Seattle, Bus Seattle-Vancouver 10/29 reservation to 516, though.


----------



## Northwestern

coalman said:


> I saw articles about service to Vancouver, Canada opening in September, but I could not book online, through train service in 2022. Is there any information on when service to Vancouver, Canada will resume?


Here is a recent article about the service returning this Sept:



Amtrak Is Restarting One of Its Most Scenic Routes Just in Time for Fall Getaways



From the article:

"Although Americans are allowed to enter Canada once again, there are still a few travel requirements. All passengers must use the ArriveCAN app to submit their proof of vaccination before travel—non-Canadian citizens must be fully vaccinated and also carry with them the vaccine record they uploaded to the app. All travelers are also required to wear masks on Canadian trains and inside Canadian rail stations".

I have some problems with this, but knowing that Covid and Vax discussions seem to not be welcomed in the forum, I will refrain.


----------



## Amtrak25

Do you stil need a quarantine plan ?


----------



## Northwestern

Amtrak25 said:


> Do you stil need a quarantine plan ?


I have no idea.


----------



## thully

Amtrak25 said:


> Do you stil need a quarantine plan ?


Not if fully vaccinated, which all non-Canadian citizens must be to enter. Though you still have to fill out ArriveCAN and are subject to random testing.


----------



## coalman

I tried making online reservations from PDC to Vancouver BC but could only get train to Seattle and then bus to canada. The article doesn't say when it will start.


----------



## zephyr17

coalman said:


> I tried making online reservations from PDC to Vancouver BC but could only get train to Seattle and then bus to canada. The article doesn't say when it will start.


I assume you mean PDX.

The only train being resumed is the 516/519 SEA-VAC/VAC-SEA pair. It leaves Seattle too early to have any connections from Portland or any points south of Seattle.

Seattle to Vancouver is up and open for ticketing, I just looked at it and will be shifting my current Everett-Vancouver Builder/Bus reservation to it.

I do not think the PDX-SEA-VAC/VAC-SEA-PDX 517/518 pair is going to resume any time soon


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> Do you stil need a quarantine plan ?


No, but as of now you still need to do ArriveCan and are still subject to random arrivals testing.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

thully said:


> Not if fully vaccinated, which all non-Canadian citizens must be to enter. Though you still have to fill out ArriveCAN and are subject to random testing.


What's the current definition of "fully vaccinated"? Just the original 1 or 2-dose jab, or how many boosters in addition?


----------



## jiml

MccfamschoolMom said:


> What's the current definition of "fully vaccinated"? Just the original 1 or 2-dose jab, or how many boosters in addition?


Two. I believe an exception is also made for the one-dose J&J, although it was not offered here.


----------



## GAT

Will this train stop at Mount Vernon in both directions? OOPS! I just saw on the Condé Nast article the answer is "Yes." Glad to hear it.


----------



## zephyr17

MccfamschoolMom said:


> What's the current definition of "fully vaccinated"? Just the original 1 or 2-dose jab, or how many boosters in addition?


For Canadian entry requirements, still 10 days after final dose of initial vaccine series (1 or 2 dose). No boosters required.


----------



## zephyr17

GAT said:


> Will this train stop at Mount Vernon in both directions? OOPS! I just saw on the Condé Nast article the answer is "Yes." Glad to hear it.


It will stop at all the intermediate stops it did before, Edmonds, Everett, Stanwood, Mt. Vernon, and Bellingham.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

zephyr17 said:


> The only train being resumed is the 516/519 SEA-VAC/VAC-SEA pair. It leaves Seattle too early to have any connections from Portland or any points south of Seattle.


According to my memory the lack of practical connections meant I had to spend the night, ride a disgusting bus, or wait for a train so late the scenery would be in darkness. I tried choosing the disgusting bus, mainly because the other options were less practical, but I won't be doing that again. I'm also curious how people avoid forfeiting an expensive trip if a test comes back positive or you are denied entry on some border clerk's whim, assuming that's even possible.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

zephyr17 said:


> For Canadian entry requirements, still 10 days after final dose of initial vaccine series (1 or 2 dose). No boosters required.


I had heard from a Canadian YouTuber that his country's government was considering a more flexible definition of "fully vaccinated," to include however many boosters their version of the CDC thinks are required (a number which could change).


----------



## zephyr17

Devil's Advocate said:


> According to my memory the lack of practical connections meant I had to spend the night, ride a disgusting bus, or wait for a train so late the scenery would be in darkness. I tried choosing the disgusting bus, mainly because the other options were less practical, but I won't be doing that again. I'm also curious how people avoid forfeiting an expensive trip if a test comes back positive or you are denied entry on some border clerk's whim, assuming that's even possible.


For Starlight connections, it will still be the bus and that will continue even once 517/518 resume. That train never connected to the Starlight. The Starlight connection was always a bus and is likely to remain so.

The random arrival testing is a problem. If you test positive, you have to go into a 10 day quarantine, and they do check. It has the potential of enormous disruptions to travel plans. It is also remarkably stupid. You don't have to stop your travel to wait for results, so you will have been wandering around Canada for 3-5 days potentially shedding virus before getting results and getting slapped into quarantine. It does little or nothing to protect the Canadian public.

I would have much preferred they kept the pre-arrival testing requirement and dropped the random. It would have done more to protect Canadians and at least allowed one to cancel plans and remain at home if positive. Bad, but better than a 10 day quarantine in another country.

The only way around it is by a "Golden Ticket" positive PCR test. Proof of a positive PCR test administered 11-180 days prior to entry. For my November trip, I am planning to take a PCR test two weeks prior to departure, in hopes it actually comes back positive. If it doesn't, I will largely quarantine myself and be careful about masking for those two weeks and take a home antigen test just before I leave.

The selection is by computer based on your ArriveCan application, BTW, not by the CBSA agent.


----------



## zephyr17

MccfamschoolMom said:


> I had heard from a Canadian YouTuber that his country's government was considering a more flexible definition of "fully vaccinated," to include however many boosters their version of the CDC thinks are required (a number which could change).


That may be, but it has not been announced, much less implemented.


----------



## jiml

MccfamschoolMom said:


> I had heard from a Canadian YouTuber that his country's government was considering a more flexible definition of "fully vaccinated," to include however many boosters their version of the CDC thinks are required (a number which could change).


They keep talking about this but so far no action. As someone with all 4 current shots I don't care, however the government will face tremendous backlash from the majority who stopped at two. They are also trying to walk a fine line between encouraging Americans to travel here while discouraging Canadians from traveling at all.


----------



## zephyr17

jiml said:


> They keep talking about this but so far no action. As someone with all 4 current shots I don't care, however the government will face tremendous backlash from the majority who stopped at two. They are also trying to walk a fine line between encouraging Americans to travel here while discouraging Canadians from traveling at all.


If they want to encourage Americans, they need to get rid of that random arrivals test. It is a huge disincentive and a real problem for travelers, while doing little or nothing to protect Canadians.

To actually protect Canadians, they should reinstate the pre-arrival test requirement if they feel any testing at all is needed, and drop that stupidly implemented random arrival test.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

zephyr17 said:


> I would have much preferred they kept the pre-arrival testing requirement and dropped the random. It would have done more to protect Canadians and at least allowed one to cancel plans and remain at home if positive. Bad, but better than a 10 day quarantine in another country.


Most countries I've checked let vaxxed people simply go about their business or they require a 72-hour pre-departure test that gives you time to cancel or reschedule major expenses as necessary. I am not entirely sure what they're thinking but Canada seems increasingly out of step on this one.



zephyr17 said:


> The selection is by computer based on your ArriveCan application, BTW, not by the CBSA agent.


If it is truly random then it should work just like secondary screening in Mexico. Truly random events do not require (and are undermined by) personal details, unique logins, and telemetry apps.


----------



## zephyr17

Devil's Advocate said:


> Most countries I've checked let vaxxed people simply go about their business or they require a 72-hour pre-departure test that gives you time to cancel or reschedule major expenses as necessary. I am not entirely sure what they're thinking but Canada seems increasingly out of step on this one.
> 
> 
> If it is truly random then it should work just like secondary screening in Mexico. Truly random events do not require (and are undermined by) personal details, unique logins, and telemetry apps.


Canada used to require a 72 hour pre-arrival PCR test until March, the a 24 hour medically collected antigen or a PCR within 72 hours through April, then they dropped pre-arrival test requirements. The still did the random test in addition to the pre-arrival. They dropped the pre-arrival but kept the random



Devil's Advocate said:


> If it is truly random then it should work just like secondary screening in Mexico. Truly random events do not require (and are undermined by) personal details, unique logins, and telemetry apps.


It is apparently pretty random. At least at airport arrivals now, the CBSA agent has nothing to do with it. They notifiy you at your contact info from ArriveCan about 15 minutes after you clear inspection.


----------



## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> For Starlight connections, it will still be the bus and that will continue even once 517/518 resume. That train never connected to the Starlight. The Starlight connection was always a bus and is likely to remain so.



To clarify, sometimes people recall that the former Amtrak _Pacific International _did connect with the _Coast Starlight _from July 17, 1972, till 1975. In 1975 when the U.S. went on Daylight Savings in winter, Canada did not and that would have resulted in a 5:30 a.m. departure from Vancouver, BC. Amtrak began experimenting with other schedules. Given the connection difficulties, border hassles, slow runtimes (including a wye movement upon the late evening arrival in Van.), and looming cutbacks in VIA Rail, nothing worked well enough to save the service and it was discontinued in September 1981. Numerous lessons from the Pacific International experience influence the _Cascades _Canada service design.

In 1977 my family and I enjoyed a melted ice cream dessert in SP&S Diner 'Columbia' rolling along the Sound shoreline. Departure from Seattle was late due to Train 14 running late. Refrigeration had failed. In the rain-drenched night, CN Police shooed passengers out and locked up the station. They weren't kidding -- I managed to grab this shot as they hustled us out.


----------



## zephyr17

Canada may drop random arrival testing, vaccine requirements and ArriveCan entirely as of September 30th.









Official: Canada likely to drop vaccine requirement to enter


An official familiar with the matter says Canada will likely drop the vaccine requirement for people who enter Canada by the end of September.




www.seattletimes.com





More good news to go along with the resumption of Cascades service to Vancouver on September 26th!

Means I might not have to worry about the  random testing for my trip starting 10/29!


----------



## zephyr17

And Canadian sources:








Canada to drop COVID vaccine requirement to enter country: Source


The federal government will likely drop its COVID-19 vaccine requirement for people entering Canada at the end of the month, a source said.




vancouversun.com













Canada to make ArriveCan optional, drop vaccine requirement at the border by Sept. 30


Mask requirements on trains and planes will remain in place, but random COVID-19 testing will end




www.theglobeandmail.com





Not official, but all changes to Canada's COVID border policies have been preceded by such leaks before official pronouncements.


----------



## thully

Hoping this means they restore the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel Bus - don’t see any more excuses to delay (save for perhaps hiring drivers to run it - hope that doesn’t delay it too much). With the increase in Detroit-Ann Arbor bus service, restoring that means I could get all the way to Canada (and the VIA Rail station in Windsor) on transit. Now if only we could have a through Chicago-Detroit-Toronto train…


----------



## zephyr17

thully said:


> Hoping this means they restore the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel Bus - don’t see any more excuses to delay (safe for perhaps hiring drivers to run it - hope that doesn’t delay it too much). With the increase in Detroit-Ann Arbor bus service, restoring that means I could get all the way to Canada (and the VIA Rail station in Windsor) on transit. Now if only we could have a through Chicago-Detroit-Toronto train…


Hope so, too, but have to give you kudos on your ingenious solution to its absence.


----------



## MccfamschoolMom

thully said:


> Now if only we could have a through Chicago-Detroit-Toronto train…


That would certainly save on Illinoisans like me having to figure out the best option in New York state for connecting from the Lake Shore Limited to the Maple Leaf!


----------



## NYP2NFL01

I recently rode the Maple Leaf from NYP to Niagara Falls, Ontario (NFS). When I presented proof of my COVID-19 vaccination status at the border crossing, the Canadian border officials said "we don't need to see that"! So, I can see why they are planning to do away with most if not all COVID-19 protocols.


----------



## StanJazz

NYP2NFL01 said:


> I recently rode the Maple Leaf from NYP to Niagara Falls, Ontario (NFS). When I presented proof of my COVID-19 vaccination status at the border crossing, the Canadian border officials said "we don't need to see that"! So, I can see why they are planning to do away with most if not all COVID-19 protocols.


When you do the required ArriveCan app you upload the proof of vaccination, so they already have it.


----------



## Amtrak25

StanJazz said:


> When you do the required ArriveCan app you upload the proof of vaccination, so they already have it.



"Canada to make ArriveCan optional"

Never volunteer ! Do what is required. Answer only questions asked, expression-less, in direct, simple, declarative sentences. Do not smile.


----------



## Bonser

Has anyone heard anything new about the Adirondack? Is the track issue north of the border even on anyone's agenda?


----------



## Shanson

Re: smiling 

Customs clearance into a different country: yes, no smiling by us or the official on entering Germany, until he asked, "What is your reason for visiting Germany?" Our answer, "We are here to ride trains!" His eyes twinkled, he grinned and said "Welcome to Germany!"


----------



## NYP2NFL01

True, the ArriveCan app had my COVID-19 vaccination documentation for sure. Amtrak stressed over and over again the importance of having your ArriveCan Receipt AND COVID-19 vaccination record ready for presentation. Amtrak also stressed the importance of wearing masks once the train crossed the border into Canada and at the border control in Niagara Falls, ON. Interestingly half the border control staff were not wearing masks!


----------



## zephyr17

NYP2NFL01 said:


> True, the ArriveCan app had my COVID-19 vaccination documentation for sure. Amtrak stressed over and over again the importance of having your ArriveCan Receipt AND COVID-19 vaccination record ready for presentation. Amtrak also stressed the importance of wearing masks once the train crossed the border into Canada and at the border control in Niagara Falls, ON. Interestingly half the border control staff were not wearing masks!


My experience having crossed three times since the border reopened, once on the "Can't Rail" bus, twice in my own vehicle:
CBSA never looks at the ArriveCan receipt. The ArriveCan info comes up when they run your id. They're linked.

CBSA does not ask to see proof of vaccination as long as your ArriveCan receipt code is "I" (immunized). That means your uploaded proof of vaccination was good enough. If it's "V" (vaccinated) that means they weren't completely happy with the upload and need to look at it.

I always had an "I" so I was never asked for it, but I had it, just in case. The first time I had a printout of the ArriveCan receipt and they waved it away, saying "we don't need that, we already have it".

Masking on VIA's Canadian was generally enforced, but nicely.


----------



## zephyr17

COVID border requirements ending on 9/30 looking a bit more official:








Trudeau OKs end of COVID vaccine border rule, mandatory ArriveCan use


The federal government is still deciding whether to maintain the requirement for passengers to wear face masks on trains and airplanes




nationalpost.com


----------



## jiml

He would not confirm it before jetting off to Japan:








Trudeau refuses to confirm whether ArriveCAN, COVID vaccine mandates will be lifted after next week


Asked directly on Friday when he would reveal his government’s next steps, Trudeau said only that the news would be announced when the government was ready




nationalpost.com


----------



## flitcraft

They'll be ready once the Blue Jays clinch the playoffs. Having players unable to travel to Toronto for the playoffs would not be a good look for MLB, so I am assuming the timing here is being accelerated via 'conversations' with MLB.


----------



## TrackWalker

Well, I'm all set to ride the first Cascade train to Canada from Mount Vernon, WA. to Vancouver, BC and back on Monday, 9/26. ArriveCAN filled out. It get easier to use each time as I've been back and forth about five times so far this year.


----------



## Urban Sky

CTV News: Canada dropping travel mask mandate and ending COVID-19 border and quarantine restrictions

Effective October 1:


> Foreign nationals won't need to be vaccinated to enter the country;
> Incoming travellers to major airports won't be subject to random mandatory COVID-19 tests;
> Unvaccinated Canadians will no longer have to isolate when they return;
> Travellers will not have to monitor or report if they develop COVID-19 symptoms upon arrival in Canada;
> Filling out the ArriveCan app prior to landing will become optional; and
> It'll no longer be mandatory to wear a face mask on planes or trains.


----------



## SubwayNut

For the new SEA to VAC Cascades trains today, what's the Rolling Stock. One of the remaining Oregon Talgo sets or Horizon cars? Might be going up to Bellingham for a quick trip in couple weeks as part of a week were planning to spend in Seattle, we were planning to just rent a car, assuming there isnt a train, but if there using Talgos I'll be tempted to try and do the train instead.


----------



## Trogdor

SubwayNut said:


> For the new SEA to VAC Cascades trains today, what's the Rolling Stock. One of the remaining Oregon Talgo sets or Horizon cars? Might be going up to Bellingham for a quick trip in couple weeks as part of a week were planning to spend in Seattle, we were planning to just rent a car, assuming there isnt a train, but if there using Talgos I'll be tempted to try and do the train instead.



Photo posted on Facebook today (of people on the first trip) shows Horizon equipment.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> He would not confirm it before jetting off to Japan:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trudeau refuses to confirm whether ArriveCAN, COVID vaccine mandates will be lifted after next week
> 
> 
> Asked directly on Friday when he would reveal his government’s next steps, Trudeau said only that the news would be announced when the government was ready
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Good thing nothing is happening in Cansda like a bad Hurricane in the Maritimes,or any other important stuff,so he can Jet off to another Funeral!


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## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> Good thing nothing is happening in Cansda like a bad Hurricane in the Maritimes,or any other important stuff,so he can Jet off to another Funeral!


He actually canceled the trip at the last minute to "supervise" the hurricane clean-up. They announced the removal of Covid restrictions anyway, which is good news for those hoping to visit here on Amtrak or other means. Based on other travel forums, many here are waiting for the other shoe to drop on ArriveCan, specifically if those choosing to not use it will be penalized and sent to a longer line. We used it returning from L.A. recently and it did save a ton of time at the airport vs. those who didn't.


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## zephyr17

SubwayNut said:


> For the new SEA to VAC Cascades trains today, what's the Rolling Stock. One of the remaining Oregon Talgo sets or Horizon cars? Might be going up to Bellingham for a quick trip in couple weeks as part of a week were planning to spend in Seattle, we were planning to just rent a car, assuming there isnt a train, but if there using Talgos I'll be tempted to try and do the train instead.


It's Horizons. The only current operational Talgo 8 set is on the Seattle-Eugene 503/508 pair and is likely to remain on it for the foreseeable future. Besides, the two Talgo 8 sets are owned by ODOT and I think they'd be allergic to using them on a train that doesn't come within a hundred miles of Oregon. If and when the second ODOT Talgo 8 set returns to service, it'll likely be on the the Eugene-Seattle 500/507 pair. The midday Seattle Portland trains and Seattle Vancouver 516/519 pair are likely to remain Horizons until the WSDOT Ventures arrive.

I'd take the train anyway. It is considerably more scenic than Interstate 5.


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## zephyr17

Urban Sky said:


> CTV News: Canada dropping travel mask mandate and ending COVID-19 border and quarantine restrictions
> 
> Effective October 1:


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## MccfamschoolMom

zephyr17 said:


>


Per the Canadian "lawTuber" I follow (Viva Frei), PM Trudeau's statement said that they were not renewing the "Order in Council" (like an executive order in the USA, with no Parliamentary vote involved) which authorized these border crossing requirements, but that they reserved the right to issue a similar "Order in Council" reinstating those border crossing requirements at some (unspecified) point in the future.


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## zephyr17

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Per the Canadian "lawTuber" I follow (Viva Frei), PM Trudeau's statement said that they were not renewing the "Order in Council" (like an executive order in the USA, with no Parliamentary vote involved) which authorized these border crossing requirements, but that they reserved the right to issue a similar "Order in Council" reinstating those border crossing requirements at some (unspecified) point in the future.


Yeah, I know, but from a practical political standpoint it is pretty much a one-way street. Things would have to get _much_ worse to reimpose it. Like a highly lethal strain of the virus.


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## jiml

MccfamschoolMom said:


> Per the Canadian "lawTuber" I follow (Viva Frei), PM Trudeau's statement said that they were not renewing the "Order in Council" (like an executive order in the USA, with no Parliamentary vote involved) which authorized these border crossing requirements, but that they reserved the right to issue a similar "Order in Council" reinstating those border crossing requirements at some (unspecified) point in the future.


An accurate and very important point overlooked by most media. Tonight's news made it sound like these things were gone forever.

It would also be nice for the US to reciprocate and remove the "jumping through hoops" currently required for Canadians, since none are required for returning Americans. Most Americans will never see the five-page CDC document we're required to complete to board a plane to the US. Fortunately all that's required for land border crossings (including trains) is proof of vaccination.


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## MccfamschoolMom

zephyr17 said:


> Yeah, I know, but from a practical political standpoint it is pretty much a one-way street. Things would have to get _much_ worse to reimpose it. Like a highly lethal strain of the virus.


I hope you're right about that!


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## flitcraft

TrackWalker said:


> Well, I'm all set to ride the first Cascade train to Canada from Mount Vernon, WA. to Vancouver, BC and back on Monday, 9/26. ArriveCAN filled out. It get easier to use each time as I've been back and forth about five times so far this year.



How was the trip? Anything special to commemorate the re-start of the service?


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## TrackWalker

Baubles and trinkets included lanyards, key rings, mints, luggage tags and lego Cascades locomotives.


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## zephyr17

Windsor-Detroit Tunnel Bus returning 11/20.









Windsor-Detroit tunnel bus to resume service on Nov. 20


Good news for cross-border travellers looking for a ride between Windsor and Detroit.




windsor.ctvnews.ca


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## jiml

You beat me to it. My guess is the casino had some influence in the decision since their extra stop is back and services to Detroit sporting events were neglected, although a good source of extra riders.


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## Amtrak25

How does one get between Amtrak and VIA using that bus ?


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## thully

Amtrak25 said:


> How does one get between Amtrak and VIA using that bus ?


You would have to take Detroit transit (DDOT/SMART buses on Woodward or the QLine) from Amtrak to the Tunnel Bus stop, take the Tunnel Bus to Windsor, and then transfer to Transit Windsor’s route 2 to the VIA Windsor station. I’ve researched this before and will probably do a variant of it at some point (though I’ll be transferring from the D2A2 bus from Ann Arbor rather than the Detroit Amtrak). It would be nice if they could extend the Tunnel Bus to Detroit Amtrak and Windsor VIA - they could even offer a joint ticket on Amtrak/VIA this way…


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## amtrakpass

I've done the tunnel bus a few times via q line in detroit and local bus to via rail on the windsor side. However sometimes to shorten it up I have taken a taxi/uber from the via rail station to where you can catch the tunnel bus in windsor or same on the detroit side to the Amtrak station. Thought it worked well and was not hard to do as long as you get going and leave yourself a little bit of a cushion due to traffic or any unforseen customs delays


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## jiml

amtrakpass said:


> I've done the tunnel bus a few times via q line in detroit and local bus to via rail on the windsor side. However sometimes to shorten it up I have taken a taxi/uber from the via rail station to where you can catch the tunnel bus in windsor or same on the detroit side to the Amtrak station. Thought it worked well and was not hard to do as long as you get going and leave yourself a little bit of a cushion due to traffic or any unforseen customs delays


^The right answer.^ Although doing an "all-transit" routing would certainly be ideal, connections are not always favorable or even possible - especially on the Canadian side. I used to do this almost every year to attend the Detroit auto show. Another tip: Don't do this with someone with a British passport unless you have an extra hour or two to spend entering the US.


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## Willbridge

jiml said:


> ^The right answer.^ Although doing an "all-transit" routing would certainly be ideal, connections are not always favorable or even possible - especially on the Canadian side. I used to do this almost every year to attend the Detroit auto show. Another tip: Don't do this with someone with a British passport unless you have an extra hour or two to spend entering the US.


The Border Crossing Uncertainty Principle applies. I was taken off an Empire International bus at Kingsgate, BC entering Canada along with a British tourist. He looked suspicious because he had a Greyhound Ameripass and was entering Canada at an unlikely point. I looked suspicious because I had a one-way ticket (I didn't know which route I would use for my return trip). This won't happen again because it's another bus route that has been abandoned.

This is just one example of unexpected delays at the U.S.--Canada border.


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## zephyr17

Well, having crossed at Kingsgate/Eastport a couple times, it is pretty dang remote. That a Brit would show up there in particular really does seem unlikely.

Not having return/onward transportation is a red flag to Immigration officials the world over.

But yeah, don't think there are any buses through there any more. The Bonners Ferry-Cranbrook business probably was not very robust...


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## Willbridge

In 1971 there was 2x daily service between Spokane and Yahk. They connected with GLC in both directions on the Crowsnest Pass route. I was ticketed Portland to Edmonton. Luckily I had brought my DD214 with me, as they suspected that I was a draft dodger. There was no longer a discount on round trips and there were two rail lines and three GLC lines to choose among for the return.


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## zephyr17

Willbridge said:


> In 1971 there was 2x daily service between Spokane and Yahk. They connected with GLC in both directions on the Crowsnest Pass route. I was ticketed Portland to Edmonton. Luckily I had brought my DD214 with me, as they suspected that I was a draft dodger. There was no longer a discount on round trips and there were two rail lines and three GLC lines to choose among for the return.
> View attachment 29830


Wow, Yahk! Not even Cranbrook. That is serious boonies. I know any rail service directly to Vancouver was gone from that vicinity by then. Was there still passenger service over Crowsnest east by then, or even service from Cranbrook to Golden to connect with the CP main?

From Edmonton, you could have taken CN either way, or caught the CP RDC to Calgary to catch the Canadian (was the Dominion still in service in 1971?).

Still in high school in 71. Did not have to deal with the draft until 73.


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## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> Wow, Yahk! Not even Cranbrook. That is serious boonies. I know any rail service directly to Vancouver was gone from that vicinity by then. Was there still passenger service over Crowsnest east by then, or even service from Cranbrook to Golden to connect with the CP main?
> 
> From Edmonton, you could have taken CN either way, or caught the CP RDC to Calgary to catch the Canadian (was the Dominion still in service in 1971?).
> 
> Still in high school in 71. Did not have to deal with the draft until 73.


I believe that the _Dominion _last ran in 1967 for the Montreal World's Fair under a different name.

By my September 1971 trip to Edmonton all that was left on rails south of Calgary were _Dayliners_ to Lethbridge and between Lethbridge and Medicine Hat. GLC covered all of that area.

I'm not certain when the Crowsnest Dayliner was discontinued, but it must have been one of the most rugged RDC runs in history. [A good subject for a new thread.]

Back on the subject of trans-border rail U.S.--Canada, in 1966 when I first visited Spokane, the Spokane International Railroad still had its offices in Spokane Union Station. It was already a UP subsidiary.


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## jis

A little bit of news about the eventual restoration of the Adirondack









News photo: Preparing for Amtrak’s return to Montreal - Trains


MONTREAL — Operating as Amtk 694 (the train number Canadian National has always assigned to the southbound Adirondack while on CN rails), an Amtrak requalification run heads to Montreal’s Central Station on Thursday as it passes the mostly drained Peel Basin. While Amtrak service to Vancouver...




www.trains.com


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## zephyr17

jis said:


> A little bit of news about the eventual restoration of the Adirondack
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> News photo: Preparing for Amtrak’s return to Montreal - Trains
> 
> 
> MONTREAL — Operating as Amtk 694 (the train number Canadian National has always assigned to the southbound Adirondack while on CN rails), an Amtrak requalification run heads to Montreal’s Central Station on Thursday as it passes the mostly drained Peel Basin. While Amtrak service to Vancouver...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com


Well, some good news, although they were doing some qualification runs late last winter on the Cascades, IIRC, but resumption was still months away.

Still, it makes me think that at least the track issues on the Rouses Point Sub may have been resolved?


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## Amtrak25

zephyr17 said:


> Well, some good news, although they were doing some qualification runs late last winter on the Cascades, IIRC, but resumption was still months away.
> 
> Still, it makes me think that at least the track issues on the Rouses Point Sub may have been resolved?



ESPA has said half the trackage is good for 10MPH. It had been 30MPH where there was jointed rail and 49MPH in most other locales. 

It also crawls around curves in St Jean, Brossard, and Castle Gardens. It seems the Rouses Pt sub is a compost heap of various lines stitched together, one segment being the former Montreal & Southern Counties interurban. 

So if 24 of the miles goes from 30 to 15 MPH for passenger trains, that's about 50 minutes more running time. 

When I rode a Cascade Talgo to Vancouver in 2006, most of the Canadian side was also quite a slow schlep.


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## IndyLions

Amtrak25 said:


> ESPA has said half the trackage is good for 10MPH. It had been 30MPH where there was jointed rail and 49MPH in most other locales.
> 
> It also crawls around curves in St Jean, Brossard, and Castle Gardens. It seems the Rouses Pt sub is a compost heap of various lines stitched together, one segment being the former Montreal & Southern Counties interurban.
> 
> So if 24 of the miles goes from 30 to 15 MPH for passenger trains, that's about 50 minutes more running time.
> 
> When I rode a Cascade Talgo to Vancouver in 2006, most of the Canadian side was also quite a slow schlep.


So are these wonders of high speed rail privately held or publicly owned tracks?


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## MontanaJim

zephyr17 said:


> Well, some good news, although they were doing some qualification runs late last winter on the Cascades, IIRC, but resumption was still months away.
> 
> Still, it makes me think that at least the track issues on the Rouses Point Sub may have been resolved?


i think all the qualification runs mean is that Amtrak may believe that its at least possible that the line can be resumed at some point. Crews have to keep qualified on the line and do periodic runs as such. I dont think a return of the line at anytime real soon is imminent despite such qualification runs. And its not guaranteed service will ever return.


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## zephyr17

MontanaJim said:


> i think all the qualification runs mean is that Amtrak may believe that its at least possible that the line can be resumed at some point. Crews have to keep qualified on the line and do periodic runs as such. I dont think a return of the line at anytime real soon is imminent despite such qualification runs. And its not guaranteed service will ever return.


Yeah, they were doing qualification runs to Vancouver in February and service didn't resume until September 26th.


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## zephyr17

Amtrak25 said:


> When I rode a Cascade Talgo to Vancouver in 2006, most of the Canadian side was also quite a slow schlep.


It may have seemed slow, but most of it is at least 30 mph. The Fraser Bridge is slow, and there is a speed restriction through White Rock because of heavy pedestrian traffic on the beach promenade right beside the tracks.

That isn't a secondary line, it is BNSF's mainline route into Canada and their route to the Robert's Bank coal terminal.


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## west point

Proposals to use CP have merit but if the tracks around the border are as bad as ever then time to fix them no matter which route is used.


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## zephyr17

west point said:


> Proposals to use CP have merit but if the tracks around the border are as bad as ever then time to fix them no matter which route is used.


While I do not fully understand "...if the tracks around the border are as bad as ever then time to fix them no matter which route is used." I will say that the CP connection at Rouses Point is a mainline connection (insofar as the former D&H itself can be considered a mainline) and the primary connection to CP's former D&H. CN's interchange at Rouses Point is very lightly used. They are maintained at levels appropriate to their use, with the CP line maintained to a higher standard than the CN line. While you might not be able to break any speed records on the CP, it allows higher speeds than 10 mph.


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## Amtrak25

west point said:


> Proposals to use CP have merit but if the tracks around the border are as bad as ever then time to fix them no matter which route is used.



I don't know what you mean about "tracks around the border", but it is CN's track north of Rousses Pt that is at 10MPH, which Amtrak need not use at all if they rerouted from there on CP to Lucien L'Allier, the legacy route of the D&H (one town along the way is named after it as "Delson"), part of which is already used by EXO commuter trains, and all the track is fine.


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## JWM

The logical next step is to get the Mayor of Montreal, Valerie Plante, the head of the tourist office and the M.P.'s whose ridings are along the route to get to the federal transportation head in Ottawa and also Prime Minister Trudeau. CN will get the message and upgrade the tracks.


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## Amtrak25

And the upstate NY Congressional delegation (read: Stefanik) needs to start barking at CN, not at Amtrak, which they did in July, but we as yet to hear any answer.


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## MontanaJim

JWM said:


> The logical next step is to get the Mayor of Montreal, Valerie Plante, the head of the tourist office and the M.P.'s whose ridings are along the route to get to the federal transportation head in Ottawa and also Prime Minister Trudeau. CN will get the message and upgrade the tracks.


maybe the trans head in Ottawa is too preoccupied with buffer cars these days SMH.


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## jis

MODERATOR's NOTE: More than a dozen posts on border crossing experience have been moved to a more appropriate thread for them at:






Canadian border crossing requirements, procedures and experiences on Amtrak


Just to further complicate matters Canada today extended incoming travel measures, including the ArriveCan nonsense, to September 30: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/canada-extends-covid-19-border-measures-for-incoming-travellers/ar-AAZ0RiT?li=AAggNb9




www.amtraktrains.com





Please direct posts about border crossing experiences and procedures to the thread mentioned above and reserve this thread for discussing cross border service resumption issues

Thanks for your understanding, cooperation and participation.


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## slasher-fun

Adirondack to return in Q2 2023?








Amtrak's Adirondack train is returning to action in 2023


After multiple Amtrak staffing issues the train service will resume in the second quarter of 2023




www.mynbc5.com


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## MontanaJim

still pure speculation. A state senator is quoted. No word from Amtrak or Canadian authorities.


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## Amtrak25

Too early to get an adrenalin rush or butterflies in your stomach.


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## zephyr17

slasher-fun said:


> Adirondack to return in Q2 2023?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's Adirondack train is returning to action in 2023
> 
> 
> After multiple Amtrak staffing issues the train service will resume in the second quarter of 2023
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mynbc5.com


Having seen the numerous rumors and delays on the resumption of Cascades service, I am not betting on the word of a state senator. A possible good omen, not much more than that.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

slasher-fun said:


> Adirondack to return in Q2 2023?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's Adirondack train is returning to action in 2023
> 
> 
> After multiple Amtrak staffing issues the train service will resume in the second quarter of 2023
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mynbc5.com


Besides Amtrak staffing, they will also need to get buy-in by CBSA and CBP as to how the border will be handled. That could take time getting the various bureaucracies onboard.


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## Amtrak25

Also needs to sign a contract with EXO to access Central Station.

CBSA and CBP were demanding on-board inspections be declared temporary and the pre-clearance facility in Montreal be signed in blood before they agree to anything. It hasn't even been fully designed yet nor funded.

I suspect this State Senator is merely showing he's "on it".


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## Willbridge

It is a sign of progress. When I started at ODOT in 1971 the Highway Committee in the Oregon House had just changed its name to the Transportation Committee. That was considered radical stuff. Having a state senator interested in getting stuff done is a step in the right direction.


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## OBS

In the RPA presentation last week, Amtrak VP stated they were shooting for Feb/ Mar 2023 for Adirondack resuming service.


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## Amtrak25

One of the 2 pairs of NYP-Albany trains being reinstated on Dec 5 are numbered 68 & 69, called Adirondack, and website says it has cafe service. Southbound is to run 45 minutes earlier than it did until March of 2020.


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## Shanson

Item update 12/14/22. Still quoting politicians, and not Amtrak:









Amtrak expected to resume Montreal-New York City train in the spring


The service was suspended in March 2020 as borders began closing due to the COVID-19 pandemic.




montrealgazette.com


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## MontanaJim

yep, though i believe an Amtrak spokesperson was quoted as saying they are hoping to resume service as soon as possible, but not before spring. I will say that all the chatter and speaking with multiple people i know in the rail world, it looks like the train is likely to return in 2023 but we shall see.


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## fdaley

On Thursday just before 4 p.m. I saw a 3-car Amfleet train heading south approaching Fort Edward. It wasn't the Ethan Allen, which had already gone through about two and a half hours earlier. The most obvious explanation would be some kind of test run for the Adirondack, which would normally be heading southbound at almost precisely that time.


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## OBS

fdaley said:


> On Thursday just before 4 p.m. I saw a 3-car Amfleet train heading south approaching Fort Edward. It wasn't the Ethan Allen, which had already gone through about two and a half hours earlier. The most obvious explanation would be some kind of test run for the Adirondack, which would normally be heading southbound at almost precisely that time.


Train crews probably requalifying...


----------

