# Flying by LCC, ULCC and Charter



## BCL (Feb 8, 2022)

While the nickel and dining of everything on Spirit kind of sucked, it did seem to serve a purpose. I've flown Spirit round-trip once, and the experience was actually quite good. Because the carry-on fee was less than the check-in fee there were very few people carrying on so there was little time spent dealing with anyone trying to find an overhead bin with space. Also they heavily enforce that personal items (which don't have a carry on tag) don't go in overheads, and it was politely stated. We pushed out of the gate early because there was almost no fuss on the ground. Definitely no jetway check-ins which always seems to slow things down.

I did have an issue with their boarding pass printing charge, although I didn't really test it out. I'm not sure if they would have charged me for printing at the terminal kiosk with their alleged $10 per boarding pass fee, or if that was only if I asked a human to do it. Other than that, we paid $10 more each for The Really Big Seat and it was fine.


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## basketmaker (Feb 9, 2022)

My first flight on Frontier from Nashville for house hunting (job transfer) in Denver. I knew it was a good sign as I was seated in 2A and we departed from gate A2. And the critter adorning the tail was Carl the Coyote and my name is Karl. That was in 2006 and I'm not leaving Denver. Traveled Frontier several times after that for business meetings and always enjoyed the flights. 

But now that Frontier and many other carriers have move to non-reclining seats I will avoid air travel unless it is an emergency. Seat pitch is not much of a concern for me as I am of small stature. Not just the seats but dealing with TSA is an utter PIA!

What I dislike the most is the "silence". People sit there like they are in class and never say a word. I have met so many interesting and diverse people on Amtrak. Though watching the news these days some folks are speaking and screaming and fighting and on and on! Having been a flight attendant (steward/stewardess back then) years ago never seen such BS. I have sympathy for today flight attendants.


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## adamj023 (Feb 9, 2022)

Personally I would not fly on Spirit or Frontier in their current state. Poor customer service, poor seats and value and a non appealing customer experience. Frontier initially had an excellent competitor against the legacies out in Denver but the downgrade to ULCC model was horrible. Spirit’s slapping on a yellow can of paint and claiming barebones pricing is a race to the bottom. Frontier’s brand used to have good service levels while Spirit started with the ULCC model from the outright and was never known to be good. The saving grace here is that Frontier is the majority shareholder but its doubtful the airline will be any better for customers. Frontier’s brand is superior as well as the livery.


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## VentureForth (Feb 10, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Personally I would not fly on Spirit or Frontier in their current state. Poor customer service, poor seats and value and a non appealing customer experience. Frontier initially had an excellent competitor against the legacies out in Denver but the downgrade to ULCC model was horrible. Spirit’s slapping on a yellow can of paint and claiming barebones pricing is a race to the bottom. Frontier’s brand used to have good service levels while Spirit started with the ULCC model from the outright and was never known to be good. The saving grace here is that Frontier is the majority shareholder but its doubtful the airline will be any better for customers. Frontier’s brand is superior as well as the livery.


If there wasn't a market for them, they wouldn't exist.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Feb 10, 2022)

Only ever flew Sprit once ORD - BOS and the flight wasn't bad. Seats were tight but OK. The flight crew seemed pretty professional. The nickel and diming reserving a flight is annoying but I can see the advantages of paying for what you want and no more. 

The references to "treetop airlines" - I flew them as their Texas International brand, the "milk run" that left Dallas Love Field and stopped at seemingly every cow pasture in West Texas before arriving at Clovis Airport where I got off. Convair 600 turboprops with Rolls Royce engines, not bad little planes for the time.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 10, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> The nickel and diming reserving a flight is annoying but I can see the advantages of paying for what you want and no more.


I don't see any advantages with the extreme to which they go. I think it's classic "bait and switch" allowing them to advertise a very low fare, but comparing it to competitors that provide more service. I could see charging extra for food and drink (especially on shorter flights) and charging extra for larger seats and more legroom, but the basic service should have some mandated minimum. 

By the way, I don't think that low airline fares are a good public policy to encourage, as it induces more people to fly, thus resulting in more flights and more greenhouse gas emissions.


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## Exvalley (Feb 10, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> I don't see any advantages with the extreme to which they go. I think it's classic "bait and switch" allowing them to advertise a very low fare, but comparing it to competitors that provide more service.


I have priced a few ULCC fares, and by the time I add some of their "options", the price is not that different than what the legacy carriers are charging.

I don't mind some aspects being unbundled for a fee - such as choosing your own seat in advance. But some of the fees are just absurd. (e.g. printing a boarding pass at an airport kiosk.) In my opinion, it's absurd to charge extra for anything more than a briefcase.

The one thing ULCCs do right is incentivizing a checked bag rather than carrying it onboard. I am extremely tired of the effort it takes to deal with full overhead bins on the legacy carriers - as well as the jockeying for position at the gate in the hope that space will still be available.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 10, 2022)

Exvalley said:


> I don't mind some aspects being unbundled for a fee - such as choosing your own seat in advance. But some of the fees are just absurd. (e.g. printing a boarding pass at an airport kiosk.) In my opinion, it's absurd to charge extra for anything more than a briefcase.
> 
> The one thing ULCCs do right is incentivizing a checked bag rather than carrying it onboard. I am extremely tired of the effort it takes to deal with full overhead bins on the legacy carriers - as well as the jockeying for position at the gate in the hope that space will still be available.


I agree. People flying the kinds of distances involved with air travel are mostly not taking day trips. Thus, the vast majority of airline passengers will be carrying baggage, and some accommodation for that baggage should be included in the fare. There's no need to "incentivize" checked baggage, it should be included in all fares and the airlines should strictly enforce carry-on limits, which should be on the lines of a coat, a briefcase or day pack, and maybe a ladies' purse. Also, medical equipment (e.g. CPAP), car seats, etc. Otherwise, it should all go in the hold.


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## adamj023 (Feb 10, 2022)

I have seen images of full Spirit and Frontier planes and its mind boggling to me how people don’t seem to understand the airline industry and wind up on these flights. In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality and less service frequency. I am thankful that plenty of good airlines are competing for business each and every day. What is anticompetitive with the merger is that in slot restricted markets, this merger will harm competition and there should be a forced divestiture of these markets. In non slot restricted areas, the combined company will not be hurting anyone else. We will see if the airlines are required to make any concessions before the merger is allowed. 

Unlike Southwest which only has fares in its own systems and has to be booked with Southwest, Spirit and Frontier are in the reservation systems. It is crazy that flights are coming in at higher prices to begin with and they charge more money for fees than other airlines as well which also will likely be needed as per a test search at airports by me. 

As far as carry on bags go, mainline carriers do quite well on this as some have increased bin space. Also they use a priority boarding model instead of a carry on bag fee. You can pay extra for priority boarding so you can get to board quicker as well as not have to track down bin space. There is no need for an extra carry on bag fee, unless of course you downgrade to basic economy level fares on some airlines which don’t include it.


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## jebr (Feb 10, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> I have seen images of full Spirit and Frontier planes and its mind boggling to me how people don’t seem to understand the airline industry and wind up on these flights. In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality and less service frequency. I am thankful that plenty of good airlines are competing for business each and every day.
> [...]
> It is crazy that flights are coming in at higher prices to begin with and they charge more money for fees than other airlines as well which also will likely be needed as per a test search at airports by me.



Why do you assume that all the people on these flights "don't seem to understand the airline industry?" I've flown on Spirit and Frontier a number of times, always when either cheaper or more convenient than the legacies (often both,) and based on what I've seen most people seem to at least understand that a full-sized carry on is going to cost money. I've rarely seen there be an issue at the gate with it - most people instead just bring on a smaller item (backpacks probably the most common choice.)

They also often charge a lot more for a connecting itinerary. Unless you're checking on routes where they're a non-stop option, you're getting a skewed sample. Spirit and Frontier focus heavily on point-to-point traffic (although they do allow connections) and price accordingly - typically a connecting itinerary is more expensive than the direct option, unlike the legacies which will often discount a connecting itinerary.


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## Ryan (Feb 10, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality and less service frequency.


That's a bold declarative statement with absolutely no proof.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 10, 2022)

Who are we including when we say ULCC's "work effectively?" Do ULCC's work effectively for tall people? How about elderly passengers, those who travel infrequently, and those that need more assistance? Do ULCC's work well for people who end up stranded? The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.


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## Exvalley (Feb 10, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.


Spirit was 3rd for on time performance in 2020. Frontier was 6th. They were both ahead of United, American and JetBlue.

That said, because they don't embrace the hub system like legacy carriers do, a cancelled flight can lead to bigger problems. But this is the trade-off that comes with the cheaper airfare, and many people are more than willing to make that trade-off.

ULCCs are a choice in the marketplace, and I fail to see why choice is a bad thing. I just wish that there would be a little more transparency with their fees - at least when comparison shopping on sites like Expedia.


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## jis (Feb 10, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Who are we including when we say ULCC's "work effectively?" Do ULCC's work effectively for tall people? How about elderly passengers, those who travel infrequently, and those that need more assistance? Do ULCC's work well for people who end up stranded? The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.


AFAICT it mostly works for the ULCCs and not so much for anyone else in my view. But then who am I to judge what overwhelming numbers of people wish to spend their money on?


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## Ryan (Feb 10, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The number one complaint I read about ULCC's is that they blame almost every delay and interruption on factors beyond their control and leave passengers to fend for themselves with little or no assistance.





Exvalley said:


> Spirit was 3rd for on time performance in 2020. Frontier was 6th. They were both ahead of United, American and JetBlue.



Chris' concern what about what happens when there are delays.

Your rebuttal about how often that happens completely misses the mark.


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## Exvalley (Feb 10, 2022)

Ryan said:


> Chris' concern what about what happens when there are delays.
> 
> Your rebuttal about how often that happens completely misses the mark.


If one is concerned with the consequences of a delay, it makes perfect sense to assess the overall likelihood of a delay. Put another way, I would rather fly an airline that is late 1% of the time, but is horrible at dealing with delays, than an airline that is late 75% of the time but is better at communicating, etc. Forgive me for thinking that the connection was obvious.

That said, if there is a delay, the customer is not actually left to "fend for themselves with little or no assistance." The definition of a delay means that the passenger will arrive - just later than they hoped. The concern may be that, during the period of the delay, ULCCs are not good at communicating, rebooking, etc. As I said earlier, that is what you get for the cheaper airfare - and many people are willing to make that trade. Who I am to judge these people? The free market is at work, and the truth is that ULCCs allow some people to fly who may not be able to afford a trip otherwise. That's not a bad thing, in my opinion - as long as there is sufficient transparency.


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## Ryan (Feb 10, 2022)

Exvalley said:


> If one is concerned with the consequences of a delay, it makes perfect sense to assess the overall likelihood of a delay. Put another way, I would rather fly an airline that is late 1% of the time, but is horrible at dealing with delays, than an airline that is late 75% of the time but is better at communicating, etc. Forgive me for thinking that the connection was obvious


That's a ridiculously contrived example that bears no connection to reality.

Here in the real world, I'd much rather patronize a service that provides decent customer service than one that says "not my problem". Different folks will have different priorities.

If you actually use 2021 data, Spirit and Frontier drop to 5th and 6th, so your point continues to flounder.


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## Exvalley (Feb 10, 2022)

Ryan said:


> Here in the real world, I'd much rather patronize a service that provides decent customer service than one that says "not my problem". Different folks will have different priorities.


Oh, you and I agree. I prefer to fly legacy carriers. But you and I come from a place of privilege where we can afford to pay more for added conveniences. Not everyone comes from the place that we do, and they deserve a choice too.



Ryan said:


> If you actually use 2021 data, Spirit and Frontier drop to 5th and 6th, so your point continues to flounder.


I used official government data when I gave the rankings. The latest year reported is 2020. The government may agree with your independent source for 2021 - or may not. It's certainly odd that your source only used data from between June 1 and December 20.


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## Ryan (Feb 10, 2022)

Exvalley said:


> Oh, you and I agree. I prefer to fly legacy carriers. But you and I come from a place of privilege where we can afford to pay more for added conveniences. Not everyone comes from the place that we do, and they deserve a choice too.
> 
> I used official government data when I gave the rankings. The latest year reported is 2020. The government may agree with your independent source for 2021 - or may not. It's certainly odd that your source only used data from between June 1 and December 20.


Not odd when you consider that it was published on 29 December. If you want to stick to government data, it's available through November of 2021 and a cursory review shows the data I provided above to be accurate.

If only you were in the habit of providing citations, then we could be sure of what you're talking about.

Edit to add:
To save time in checking the data, I built a little table. Feel free to audit for mistakes (sorry I didn't take the time to provide the bespoke handwritten tables in the style of @niemi24s):


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## Exvalley (Feb 10, 2022)

Ryan said:


> Not odd when you consider that it was published on 29 December.


What’s odd is that a chart for all of 2021 used data that only started on June 1.


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## Ryan (Feb 10, 2022)

Exvalley said:


> What’s odd is that a chart for all of 2021 used data that only started on June 1.



It doesn't purport to be a chart for "all of 2021". It's odd that you would make that up. I included the data all the way back to 2020 to remain contiguous with your claimed data set (for which you still have not provided a reference). The report explicitly states when the data is from, as you no doubt read as you continue to pick at it (despite being in-family with the government data also provided above).

Circling this entertaining detour back on topic, it's obvious that your contrived example isn't borne out by data here in the real world, be it 2020, some of 2021, or all of 2021. Chris' point on how poorly these carriers react to delays stands and isn't mitigated by theoretical head and shoulders performance improvements by said carriers. Perhaps the merger will cause them to step up their game. Perhaps not, it will be interesting to follow.


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## Exvalley (Feb 10, 2022)

Ryan said:


> It doesn't purport to be a chart for "all of 2021"


It’s a chart that is labeled “2021 On Time Performance.” And yet it omits several months worth of data. An odd source to cite, for sure.

Getting back to the topic at hand, do you take issue with my contention that it is a good thing that people with less privilege have travel options by trading some degree of convenience for price?


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## VentureForth (Feb 11, 2022)

Is all about managing expectations like we do on Amtrak. 

Though perhaps not as bad, the mainline carriers have had plenty of publicity regarding poor customer service when things go wrong.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 11, 2022)

jebr said:


> I think having the ULCCs is good, _even if you never fly on them_. The legacies would not be offering as cheap of flights as they do without the pressure of the ULCCs.


I think we're all flying ULCC's these days. Take a look at a prospectus or join an earnings call to see what I mean. Our fares seem cheap until you buy back all the things you used to get for free. What they call First Class today is not that different from the service I received in Legacy Coach when I first started flying.


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## adamj023 (Feb 11, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I think we're all flying ULCC's these days. Take a look at a prospectus or join an earnings call to see what I mean. Our fares seem cheap until you buy back all the things you used to get for free. What they call First Class today is not that different from the service I received in Legacy Coach when I first started flying.



The introduction of basic economy fares has changed the industry. The regulated airline markets had high pricing but much higher service levels as well. I actually miss many aspects of the regulated airline industry because it made for a better experience. I feel airlines have been commoditized and it just isn’t the same. The passengers were wealthier and a lot more professional as well. And flight crews were more professional. Nowadays all you hear is conflict between airlines including flight crews and passengers on the media. Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.


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## BCL (Feb 11, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> The introduction of basic economy fares has changed the industry. The regulated airline markets had high pricing but much higher service levels as well. I actually miss many aspects of the regulated airline industry because it made for a better experience. I feel airlines have been commoditized and it just isn’t the same. The passengers were wealthier and a lot more professional as well. And flight crews were more professional. Nowadays all you hear is conflict between airlines including flight crews and passengers on the media. Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.



Reported incidents are probably higher, in addition to considerably more people traveling by air.

But in the past there were certainly a lot of people flying who were entitled but where the airlines chose not to report it for fear of losing otherwise good customers. The worst was probably that flight attendants were groped quite often. It was never legal per se, but there was a societal change as well as far better understanding that it's not a harmless prank. But absolutely it was a wink wink, nudge nudge that they were selling a fantasy of young, attractive women. There was a maximum age (typically 35), and getting married or having children would get a flight attendant fired. But only if they were women. They were forced to wear girdles as well as wear uncomfortable shoes.


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## Ryan (Feb 11, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.


[citation needed]


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## adamj023 (Feb 11, 2022)

Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 11, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.


So, we should believe mass media?


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## Ryan (Feb 11, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.


So you completely made it up and then based your conclusions on it. Got it.


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## tgstubbs1 (Feb 11, 2022)

Before ULCCs there were charter flights. Probably less luxurious than the regular airlines. I don't know if they had incidents in flight. They had a different way of booking and handling passengers maybe.


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## Trogdor (Feb 12, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.



There can be bias in which incidents get reported by the media. To put another way, anecdote =/= data. Opinion is definitely =/= data.

Interestingly, finding actual per-airline data isn’t that easy. The FAA reports total incidents, but I didn’t see any indication of a breakdown by airline.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 12, 2022)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Before ULCCs there were charter flights. Probably less luxurious than the regular airlines. I don't know if they had incidents in flight. They had a different way of booking and handling passengers maybe.


I did my trip to Japan using a charter flight. On the way out, they put our group in a regularly scheduled flight, a DC-10, I think. Same service as the regular customers. On the way back, our group had its own plane, a DC-8 that had more cramped seating than the DC-10. I think the food service was the same, though. The group was mostly Japanese students in the US who used it to get home for summer vacation. They were very well behaved, and there were no "incidents." This was back in 1978.


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## adamj023 (Feb 12, 2022)

No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.

I am fortunate to never have been on a flight with an incident on board with the airlines I have used. Most I’ve experienced were delays and some rough flying due to weather.

If someone does have the stats on a per airline basis for onboard incidents, I have not seen it yet and I would assume Frontier and Spirit combined would be above the others in the domestic USA. The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.


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## tgstubbs1 (Feb 12, 2022)

Was it United that has the big no fly list?


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 12, 2022)

As for basing numbers on media, I would say that American, United and Delta have the greatest number of incidents of unruly people since those are the one's *I've* seen over the last two years. I can't recall seeing any about Spirit and maybe one or two about Frontier.
That being said, I would not presume to rate the airlines based on my limited access to the data.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 12, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.


My recent experience on Spirit was excellent. They, unlike the legacy carriers, as far as I can tell, are still blocking off middle seats. At least for my two flights. And the flight attendant on one of my flights came to me to acknowledge she knew I may need assistance for my disability. She even asked if I wanted her to lower her mask so I could read her lips. That has been hit or miss on even the legacy carriers over the years for me.


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## Trogdor (Feb 12, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.



Nobody said you made up the incidents. The point is, and always has been, that just because you happen to see a video of something doesn’t mean that is the most prevalent thing that occurs. One needs actual data, which has not been provided, to state which airlines actually have the most incidents.

I mean, based on what I’ve seen on news video clips, most athletes are amazing all-stars that routinely make game-saving catches. Or, maybe it’s that the 99% that don’t meet that description never get much reporting.


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## Ryan (Feb 12, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.
> 
> I am fortunate to never have been on a flight with an incident on board with the airlines I have used. Most I’ve experienced were delays and some rough flying due to weather.
> 
> If someone does have the stats on a per airline basis for onboard incidents, I have not seen it yet and I would assume Frontier and Spirit combined would be above the others in the domestic USA. The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.



You continue to fundamentally misunderstand what everyone is talking about. Literally nobody is arguing that these incidents happen. You claim to not "know the specific details on a per airline basis" but conclude these things happen on Frontier/Spirit more often based on some vague recollection, likely tied in with your recollection of the good old days when "wealthier and a lot more professional" and seem to be concluding that it's the poor trashy people that *must* be doing this more often. This ties nicely in with your claim that passengers on these airlines are poor and too stupid to realize "In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality", again, without substantiation that the customer actually is paying more . This is knowable information if you trouble yourself to do so. Go research the revenue per available seat mile (RASM) by carrier and demonstrate that they are in fact paying more (hint: you're probably going to find the opposite).

You have an entire worldview built up on things that aren't factually accurate. I can't recall ever seeing one of these incidents on Spirit or Frontier, so I can only conclude that the people that fly those airlines are the most well-behaved passengers on the planet.

When your conclusions are based on things that are untrue, they're somewhere between worthless and actively harmful, and that describes nearly every contribution you have made to this discussion. Produce the data that backs up your claims, retract your claims, or continue to be irrelevant and provide nothing of value. Your choice.


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## toddinde (Feb 12, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> The introduction of basic economy fares has changed the industry. The regulated airline markets had high pricing but much higher service levels as well. I actually miss many aspects of the regulated airline industry because it made for a better experience. I feel airlines have been commoditized and it just isn’t the same. The passengers were wealthier and a lot more professional as well. And flight crews were more professional. Nowadays all you hear is conflict between airlines including flight crews and passengers on the media. Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.


Most people that fly a lot have a usual airline, gain status, and concentrate their frequent flyer miles. That leaves the infrequent traveler shopping for the cheapest fares, and they frequently end up on Frontier and Spirit. People who fly regularly aren’t going to give flight crews a hard time. They end up being on the same team; everyone wants to get home safely and quickly. When you fly a lot you know how to get on and off the plane, and get comfortable quickly. The amateurs get drunk, act crazy, can’t put their giant carryons in the overhead, complain about every single thing, and are generally just a huge pain. When I see an amateur get on the plane, I’m just like “oh no, what craziness are they going to pull now?” It’s beyond irritating. The train is more forgiving of clowns, but they even manage to screw that up. Particularly irritating are the sleeping car passengers that think they’re Lucius Beebe on the 20th Century Limited. They also throw a fit about every little thing. Ok, I’ve vented. I’m done.


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## adamj023 (Feb 13, 2022)

toddinde said:


> Most people that fly a lot have a usual airline, gain status, and concentrate their frequent flyer miles. That leaves the infrequent traveler shopping for the cheapest fares, and they frequently end up on Frontier and Spirit. People who fly regularly aren’t going to give flight crews a hard time. They end up being on the same team; everyone wants to get home safely and quickly. When you fly a lot you know how to get on and off the plane, and get comfortable quickly. The amateurs get drunk, act crazy, can’t put their giant carryons in the overhead, complain about every single thing, and are generally just a huge pain. When I see an amateur get on the plane, I’m just like “oh no, what craziness are they going to pull now?” It’s beyond irritating. The train is more forgiving of clowns, but they even manage to screw that up. Particularly irritating are the sleeping car passengers that think they’re Lucius Beebe on the 20th Century Limited. They also throw a fit about every little thing. Ok, I’ve vented. I’m done.


As the pandemic eventually ends, I hope airlines will compete on improving service levels and less on price. I personally am not looking for an ultra low cost fare but rather a fare based on a decent quality of service and a fair price for services. The ULCC market exists and those price sensitive customers have a place to go. I don’t travel that much and have used multiple airlines but never the ULCC airlines. Some airline routes including nearby airports have multiple competitors including ULCC airlines. While the ULCC carriers are cheaper and worse on those routes, most of the other airlines don’t have all that much differentiation. You choose based on the alliance you frequent such as Skyteam, Star or Oneworld, price or service schedules.


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## jebr (Feb 13, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> While the ULCC carriers are cheaper and worse on those routes



There's ways that ULCCs aren't "worse" - and may be better - beyond price:

Seating: this one is probably most clearly in favor of non-ULCCs, but if you're stuck in a market with regional jet hell, is a Spirit or Frontier seat much worse than a CRJ-900 economy seat? If you include cost into the equation, someone may be able to upgrade into a seat that rivals (or betters) many of the legacy airlines - particularly Spirit's Big Front Seat.
Schedules: very market-dependent. Particularly at airports where there's no airline using it as their hub, ULCCs can have more desirable schedules. Looking at non-stops Cleveland to Orlando, on March 1 Spirit has one trip, United has 2 trips, and Frontier has 3 trips. At least for that market, the ULCC has the best non-stop schedule! Sure, you can connect through other airports, but connections aren't always pleasant and add additional points of failure (storm in NYC? Unlikely to be an issue on a direct routing, but connecting in EWR is going to be troublesome.) I could see an inexperienced traveler, particularly one traveling with kids, much preferring taking a non-stop option on a "worse airline" over a connecting one on a "better airline."
Buy-on-board options. Yes, you can get a free tiny snack and can of soda on most legacy airlines, but if you want to buy anything more substantial, the only legacy airline with more food options domestically is United unless you pay for first class (and even in first class it's hit or miss.) On most ULCCs, they'll at least sell you a larger portion of food if you get hungry - it might not be a full meal, but it's at least more variety and a larger portion size than the two tiny cookies or thimble of nuts that the legacy airlines give. Even alcohol sales aren't back on American (or Southwest, though that changes in a few days.)
Reliability. Looking at the 2020 data, Spirit does better than everyone other than Delta and Hawaiian, and even Frontier's doing better than United, American, and JetBlue. It also bears remembering that delays can cause much larger cascading effects on a connecting itinerary: a two hour delay on a flight sucks, but if that results in missing your connection that delay to your final destination often becomes quite a bit larger than two hours. If you're traveling with a large party it becomes worse, because now either you're waiting for a lot of tickets to become available on a single routing or you're looking at splitting up your traveling group - which isn't always practical, especially for families!
While there's plenty of things to be frustrated about regarding ULCCs, there's also plenty of advantages with them - many of them beyond just "who has the cheapest fare from point A to point B." Even if we put price back into the equation a bit: if I want a wider seat than standard economy, Spirit is pretty much the only airline that offers that for less than a first-class price on the vast majority of domestic routes. Even if I'm just wanting to check a bag, if I don't have status or the requisite credit card I'll almost certainly be paying to check a bag - and the price is only a few bucks more on the ULCCs than the legacies (Southwest excluded, though they're considered a low-cost carrier.) If the price difference is substantial and I'm going to be nickel-and-dimed for my checked bag regardless, why not go with the cheaper option?


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 13, 2022)

Is American an LCC or ULCC airline? Because they've had another incident and we all know unruly passengers only fly ULCC's (per someone here).









An American Airlines flight attendant hit an 'unruly passenger' in the head with a coffee pot as he tried to open the plane's exit door | CNN


An American Airlines flight was diverted to Kansas City International Airport in Missouri on Sunday afternoon because of "an unruly passenger," the airline said in a statement.




www.cnn.com


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## west point (Feb 13, 2022)

Arrival delays and departure delays are very hard to compare. There are many ways an airline needs to or actually wants to game the system.
First arrival delays
1. How the crews are paid. Does crew get paid on scheduled time, actual time or better of scheduled or actual time? 
2. If crew has a series of trip during a duty tour, then all flight schedules for that sequence may be unrealistically low to keep the crew under the maximum 8-hour scheduled time domestically. Crew can fly over but has to take a longer off duty than if under 8 hours actual. International is different.
4. Some airlines pay based on mileage so they can make schedule longer to get a better OTP for that flight. 
5. Actual flying time is what is counted by the FAA.
Departure delays
1. How tight the turn from an arrival flight can make it impossible. Had a flight that for 2 months could never make an on-time departure even when most of time inbound aircraft arrived at least on time.
2. Shortage of gates so outbound could not get to gate with enough time.
3. Shared gates with another airline then 1 & 2 can apply


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## caravanman (Feb 14, 2022)

It seems that "air rage" is not just confined to aircraft and airports, even this forum topic brings out a somewhat unpleasant need to snipe at each other... 

At the end of the day, a cheap no frills service will appeal to some, and top class luxury service appeals to others. We can each decide what is individually important to us, without needing to look down on a "bare bones" airline.


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## adamj023 (Feb 14, 2022)

jebr said:


> There's ways that ULCCs aren't "worse" - and may be better - beyond price:
> 
> Seating: this one is probably most clearly in favor of non-ULCCs, but if you're stuck in a market with regional jet hell, is a Spirit or Frontier seat much worse than a CRJ-900 economy seat? If you include cost into the equation, someone may be able to upgrade into a seat that rivals (or betters) many of the legacy airlines - particularly Spirit's Big Front Seat.
> Schedules: very market-dependent. Particularly at airports where there's no airline using it as their hub, ULCCs can have more desirable schedules. Looking at non-stops Cleveland to Orlando, on March 1 Spirit has one trip, United has 2 trips, and Frontier has 3 trips. At least for that market, the ULCC has the best non-stop schedule! Sure, you can connect through other airports, but connections aren't always pleasant and add additional points of failure (storm in NYC? Unlikely to be an issue on a direct routing, but connecting in EWR is going to be troublesome.) I could see an inexperienced traveler, particularly one traveling with kids, much preferring taking a non-stop option on a "worse airline" over a connecting one on a "better airline."
> ...



Southwest‘s expansion into Chicago Ohare and I believe today they increased the number of flights out is a big deal because you can do self transfers to a huge number of flights on other airlines as well as have access to Souhwest’s flights. 

ULCC’s have higher bag fees and lower weight allowed on them and even charge for carry on bags.


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## jebr (Feb 14, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Southwest‘s expansion into Chicago Ohare and I believe today they increased the number of flights out is a big deal because you can do self transfers to a huge number of flights on other airlines as well as have access to Souhwest’s flights.



If this is a big deal for you for the reasons you stated, then your travel habits are quite outside the norm of the vast majority of travelers. Self-guaranteed connections with no thru-checked bags across multiple tickets are the realm of those unlucky enough to be stuck at a very small airport with only an airline that has no connecting partners (not the case for the Southwest flights into ORD) or "travel hackers" who are taking a positioning flight to get a particularly good deal - and even then, it's still preferred to take the same airline for the positioning flight (or at least one in the same alliance) to have a slightly better chance of being accommodated if a flight is canceled (and potentially at least be able to through check a bag.)

The vast majority of travelers want a one-ticket itinerary, or at least a one-ticket itinerary for each direction of the journey. Even though leisure travelers are generally price-sensitive, they're not so price-sensitive that they're going to attempt to piece together itineraries across different airlines unless it happens to spit out on an OTA - and even then there'd be some hesitation. Southwest isn't even listed in the vast majority of OTAs, so it seems exceedingly unlikely that any notable portion of travelers would be attempting this. Business travelers definitely won't be piecing together itineraries - they'll take the simple option that fits within whatever rules their company has set up for travel.


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## adamj023 (Feb 14, 2022)

jebr said:


> If this is a big deal for you for the reasons you stated, then your travel habits are quite outside the norm of the vast majority of travelers. Self-guaranteed connections with no thru-checked bags across multiple tickets are the realm of those unlucky enough to be stuck at a very small airport with only an airline that has no connecting partners (not the case for the Southwest flights into ORD) or "travel hackers" who are taking a positioning flight to get a particularly good deal - and even then, it's still preferred to take the same airline for the positioning flight (or at least one in the same alliance) to have a slightly better chance of being accommodated if a flight is canceled (and potentially at least be able to through check a bag.)
> 
> The vast majority of travelers want a one-ticket itinerary, or at least a one-ticket itinerary for each direction of the journey. Even though leisure travelers are generally price-sensitive, they're not so price-sensitive that they're going to attempt to piece together itineraries across different airlines unless it happens to spit out on an OTA - and even then there'd be some hesitation. Southwest isn't even listed in the vast majority of OTAs, so it seems exceedingly unlikely that any notable portion of travelers would be attempting this. Business travelers definitely won't be piecing together itineraries - they'll take the simple option that fits within whatever rules their company has set up for travel.



Southwest is apparently part of GDS systems as of 2020 which I did not know. Apparently agents can book through them but I haven’t seen any online booking options to date other than Southwest directly. Consumers know how to book Southwest tickets already. In the past Southwest focused more on using alternative airports but they seem to have outgrown them and now are adding services to the bigger nearby airports. Airports like Atlanta and Ohare are huge airports with lots of other airlines with flights out on a continual basis. Self transfer customers are more than just a fringe group as more consumers are looking for lower fares as evidenced by the growth of ULCC and LCC airlines. Also due to pandemic, more customers are leisure based than business related as those flights are now way down. At Ohare, Southwest is in Terminal 5 which gives access to all the international flights which means no terminal transfer, just recheck bag and go. 

Southwest has been independent of other airlines for awhile but other carriers have also felt that way and wound up partnering with other airlines as well. Southwest is an airline I previously wouldn’t have considered but is making a lot of good moves that actually makes them more competitive. American Airlines still has a ban on alcoholic beverages but Southwest will bring them back starting on Wednesday. I see AA as the legacy in the most decline and Southwest as the airline in the LCC market which is heading in the right direction.

I mistakenly thought Southwest was adding frequency to Ohare this year but it turns out it was Feb 14th of 2021 so the service has been out a full year already. As Ohare finishes up construction we will see if Southwest expands at Ohare further once additional gates are added. I haven’t been following Atlanta or other big hub airports much except for my local airports.


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## trainman74 (Feb 14, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> At Ohare, Southwest is in Terminal 5 which gives access to all the international flights which means no terminal transfer, just recheck bag and go.



United and American's international flights out of O'Hare depart from their regular terminals (they only _arrive_ at Terminal 5)... although I can't imagine _that_ many people would fly Southwest and transfer to one of those two for an international flight out of O'Hare, versus just flying the same U.S.-based airline all the way from their point of origin.


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## Asher (Feb 14, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.
> 
> I am fortunate to never have been on a flight with an incident on board with the airlines I have used. Most I’ve experienced were delays and some rough flying due to weather.
> 
> If someone does have the stats on a per airline basis for onboard incidents, I have not seen it yet and I would assume Frontier and Spirit combined would be above the others in the domestic USA. The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.


You aren’t using You Tube for travel experience are you?


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## adamj023 (Feb 15, 2022)

trainman74 said:


> United and American's international flights out of O'Hare depart from their regular terminals (they only _arrive_ at Terminal 5)... although I can't imagine _that_ many people would fly Southwest and transfer to one of those two for an international flight out of O'Hare, versus just flying the same U.S.-based airline all the way from their point of origin.



Most international flights are out of T5 for arrivals and departures at Ohare. You aren’t going to want to connect to an AA or United flight for an international departure in most cases but it is still doable by changing terminals.

Spirit has some fares under $20 for some longer domestic flights. But with fees and restrictions added, the base fares of an LCC like Southwest or the regular economy fares of the legacy airlines come out to be better overall deals than the ULCC. The ULCC has super low fares at times with restrictive policies and extra fees that must be paid such as an online booking fee even if you don’t use carry on or checkin bags and the fees for all that is higher than the legacies while its all inclusive in the LCC like Southwest. Spirit could do a 0 fare and just charge fees and it would still be a worse fare, in fact, they would increase fees further to make additional revenue.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 15, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Most international flights are out of T5 for arrivals and departures at Ohare. You aren’t going to want to connect to an AA or United flight for an international departure in most cases but it is still doable by changing terminals.
> 
> Spirit has some fares under $20 for some longer domestic flights. But with fees and restrictions added, the base fares of an LCC like Southwest or the regular economy fares of the legacy airlines come out to be better overall deals than the ULCC. The ULCC has super low fares at times with restrictive policies and extra fees that must be paid such as an online booking fee even if you don’t use carry on or checkin bags and the fees for all that is higher than the legacies while its all inclusive in the LCC like Southwest. Spirit could do a 0 fare and just charge fees and it would still be a worse fare, in fact, they would increase fees further to make additional revenue.


Since you seem to have done comparisons, can you show us side-by-side comparisons (preferably screen shots) of a flight on Spirit vs a flight on a legacy airline? 
Let's say one where the buyer will have one carry on and one checked bag.


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## adamj023 (Feb 15, 2022)

Do it yourself based on your own airport routes before you book a ticket. Understand the differences between airlines and know what you are getting into. Contract of carriage, interline agreements, DOT rules, Rule 240 or its equivalent and whether airlines abide by it and so forth also play a part. The whole industry is led by collusion and by a small amount of players rather than being real competition.


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## jebr (Feb 15, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> The ULCC has super low fares at times with restrictive policies and extra fees that must be paid such as an online booking fee even if you don’t use carry on or checkin bags and the fees for all that is higher than the legacies while its all inclusive in the LCC like Southwest. Spirit could do a 0 fare and just charge fees and it would still be a worse fare, in fact, they would increase fees further to make additional revenue.



Southwest is the only major US-based carrier that includes a checked bag with all fares. All of the other major US airlines charge for a checked bag for a domestic US itinerary by default. United and JetBlue don't even allow a full-sized carry on with their basic economy fare! If you hate the ULCCs, never buy a United basic economy fare - it's worse than even an ULCC ticket as you can't even check in online and get a boarding pass or pay to carry-on a full sized bag.

My preferred way to travel is with a personal item plus a checked bag - even if I only need the size/weight of a standard carry-on, I prefer to check it as there's restrictions on what you can bring through airport security that hamper what I'd like to bring on a trip. I prefer to shave with a safety razor, but the blades aren't allowed through security so I either need to check my bag, find a safety razor blade at my destination, or use a disposable razor when traveling with just carry-ons. I also like to bring beers and/or hard ciders home with me from a trip, which also can't be brought through security.

For me, the "free carry-on bag" included with the major airlines is a bit annoying when I have to pay for a checked bag. If the cost is still less after paying for a checked bag on the ULCCs versus the majors with their "free" carry-on, I'd seriously consider doing the ULCC because the cost I'm paying includes the things I actually want, instead of having to force myself to have my travel style fit what's included with my major airline fare.


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## jebr (Feb 15, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> interline agreements, DOT rules, Rule 240 or its equivalent



All airlines must follow DOT rules. That doesn't change based on the airline.

As for interline/rule 240, I've found that, at least for American, despite theoretically having these agreements they basically refuse to use them for standard passengers. Just last week I had a missed connection due to a mechanical delay, and despite there being two direct flights home with tickets available on Delta to replace the direct flight I missed on American (and no other direct options until the next morning,) American refused to book me on that and instead sent me on a roundabout itinerary through Charlotte getting me home 7 hours later. Even that took some work, as they defaulted me to just going on the direct American flight the next morning and getting home nearly 24 hours later. Seems little better than ULCC service to me!


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 15, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Do it yourself based on your own airport routes before you book a ticket. Understand the differences between airlines and know what you are getting into. Contract of carriage, interline agreements, DOT rules, Rule 240 or its equivalent and whether airlines abide by it and so forth also play a part. The whole industry is led by collusion and by a small amount of players rather than being real competition.


Deflecting yet again. You are the one that is saying ULCC's cost more than legacy airlines when you factor in all the fees. You need to back up your claims - with real data. I know from a recent experience that the ULCC my family took recently was cheaper than the major airlines because my daughter compared all costs between the two before booking the ULCC.
And what the heck does "contract of carriage, interline agreements, DOT rules", etc have to do with comparing the cost between two flights?


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## jebr (Feb 15, 2022)

I'm bored, so I did a quick comparison. Looks like Spirit's cheaper than Delta on this trip for what I care about! I went non-stop only because there was a Frontier fare appearing that involved some weird layovers on the way back, and I wanted to give the legacies a shot at winning. United and American were $400+ and required a connection; Southwest is $231 there and $78 back for the cheapest options and also requires a connection. The Delta flight also requires a red-eye or early morning (6:30 AM) flight home to get that $278 price (later options are $100+ more,) where the Spirit flight leaves at 3 PM - much nicer if I want to have a full last night in Vegas and maybe even do a little bit the morning of departure.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 15, 2022)

jebr said:


> If you hate the ULCCs, never buy a United basic economy fare - it's worse than even an ULCC ticket as you can't even check in online and get a boarding pass or pay to carry-on a full sized bag.





AmtrakBlue said:


> You are the one that is saying ULCC's cost more than legacy airlines when you factor in all the fees. You need to back up your claims - with real data.


How are you dividing airlines between "legacy" and "ULCC?" You keep repeating these terms without explaining how you divided each airline into one or the other.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 15, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> How are you dividing airlines between "legacy" and "ULCC?" You keep repeating these terms without explaining how you divided each airline into one or the other.


Sorry, I'm probably not using the right words....I'm not a frequent flier and don't know much about airline terminology.


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## jis (Feb 15, 2022)

Well originally adam's comments were about Spirit and Frontier, so it is safe to assume he believes those to be ULCCs I suppose.


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## jebr (Feb 15, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> How are you dividing airlines between "legacy" and "ULCC?" You keep repeating these terms without explaining how you divided each airline into one or the other.



For me, within the US context "legacy" is American, United, and Delta. At points I played a bit loose with the term and included Southwest and JetBlue (though I tried to caveat those as "LCCs" - low cost carriers.) ULCCs are basically any of them that have fees for basically everything except a seat and a backpack - in this context it'd be Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Sun Country (live in MSP so Sun Country has a big presence here.) Not particularly precise, and I know there's other airlines out there, but that's how it's defined for me.


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## adamj023 (Feb 15, 2022)

Legacy carrier is a well established term in the airline industry.






Legacy carrier - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





There are five carriers which meet this definition left. Alaska, Hawaiian, Delta, American Airlines and United airlines.

American apparently reinstated interline with Delta in 2018. Don’t know if they still have them as a partner. American Airlines will treat customers differently based on ticket class and status so if they would book on Delta for someone, it likely will be for customers on high ticket classes and/or loyalty status.


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## HenryK (Feb 16, 2022)

I thought this was a rail forum, but what do I know.


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 16, 2022)

HenryK said:


> I thought this was a rail forum, but what do I know.


We do have this non-rail forum where off topic posts about airlines get moved to when they take over an Amtrak forum thread.


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## Ryan (Feb 16, 2022)




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## Exvalley (Feb 16, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> ULCC’s have higher bag fees and lower weight allowed on them


I am definitely annoyed that Allegiant, Spirit and Frontier have dropped their weight limit from 50 pounds to 40 pounds for checked bags. Anything over 40 pounds incurs an extra fee.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 16, 2022)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Is American an LCC or ULCC airline? Because they've had another incident and we all know unruly passengers only fly ULCC's (per someone here).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is something people at the airline debate on a regular basis. I would argue we are a legacy carrier that wants to think it is a LCC or ULCC. I would say that is one of our biggest problems with our service. I can always tell when I'm getting the usual NK or F9 passengers though. As when I bring the drink cart around they start reaching for their wallet. 



west point said:


> Arrival delays and departure delays are very hard to compare. There are many ways an airline needs to or actually wants to game the system.
> First arrival delays
> 1. How the crews are paid. Does crew get paid on scheduled time, actual time or better of scheduled or actual time?
> 2. If crew has a series of trip during a duty tour, then all flight schedules for that sequence may be unrealistically low to keep the crew under the maximum 8-hour scheduled time domestically. Crew can fly over but has to take a longer off duty than if under 8 hours actual. International is different.
> ...



Question on No. 1: Which airlines are getting paid on this? I only get paid for when the door is closed. And actually I really don't get paid for work technically unless I break my block guarantee as I'll get 75 hours even if I don't work it. But once I hit that 75 I get my full credit which is the scheduled time plus whatever delays we might have. I've only hit my Block Once since May. I came close last month, and I'm getting close this month. I could hit it every month if I didn't believe in commuting back to Russia. 

2. Duty day for us is 16 hours and can be extended to 17 hours in IROPS. I don't believe there is any actual physical flight limitation. I don't know how these Ultra Long Range Flights work on that though because my aircraft couldn't do something like that. 

4. Who pays on mileage. We generally take the most direct route possible. I can only recall one super weird one which was CLT-PRV where we went out over Dayton because NY Airspace was clogged. 

As far as departure delays. 

1. Sounds like you must be flying out of Columbus, GA they can't manage a first flight out in a day on time. You really have to ride that station to get them to push you on time. These tight turns really aren't a super good thing. I get utilizing the aircraft is the priority and the more hours its in the air the more money you are making. But you are also putting yourself at a higher risk of missed connections and delays. That and your crew quality of life isn't really the greatest because they do need to eat at sometime. One pilot will usually go in and get food for everyone because one is allowed to be off the aircraft for boarding/deplaning and that's the only way we get food. And that's only if you have a nice pilot. I wouldn't be surprised if surly crews are partially due to this. 

2. I've never understood this one. In Charlotte we might have five gates open that fit our aircraft type but we can't use them because we have to wait for our initial one to open up. I actually prefer the system they have in LHR where everyone waits in one large waiting room for the gate to be announced then you have a boarding lounge at your actual gate. This is a much more efficient system in my opinion. But to do that you would have to radically redesign almost all US Airports which would end up costing too much to do anything. The other issue is our outstations tend to only have one ground crew and if they are busy you will wait. But that's a staffing issue that could be resolved. 

3. I really can only think about this in European airports because you don't see much of this in the USA. Charlotte airport is served by these airlines. American, Contour, Delta, Frontier, JetBlue, Lufthansa, Southwest, Spirit, United, and Volaris. And of those all of those use A Concourse only with the exception of American who uses every concourse, Lufthansa & Volaris which are only on D concourse. So you have Seven Airlines competing for 16 gates. While AA has access to over a hundred gates.


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## VentureForth (Feb 16, 2022)

Wife's friend flew in to visit us from Dallas on Spirit last week. She spent $50 ROUND TRIP. She didn't like her seat so I told her about the big seat upgrade for her trip back. So she spent an extra $50 for her return today. She loved it. Didn't need any of the extra crap. Drinks on the plane were same price as in the terminal. I hope "Frontier Spirit" keeps the big seats!


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## adamj023 (Feb 16, 2022)

I am not interested in getting the absolute lowest priced fare even if you compare the actual cost including fees incurred and I never would buy a basic economy ticket on airlines either. With that said, all US domestic airlines seem to have had issues at one point or another. Generally speaking, domestic airlines usually match competitors airfares on routes with the exception of the ULCC’s which can come out as cheaper before the added fees of which some can be avoided and restrictions, The LCC’s often include more value into the ticket cost without added fees.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 17, 2022)

jebr said:


> For me, within the US context "legacy" is American, United, and Delta. At points I played a bit loose with the term and included Southwest and JetBlue (though I tried to caveat those as "LCCs" - low cost carriers.) ULCCs are basically any of them that have fees for basically everything except a seat and a backpack - in this context it'd be Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, and Sun Country (live in MSP so Sun Country has a big presence here.) Not particularly precise, and I know there's other airlines out there, but that's how it's defined for me.


More than a decade ago legacy airlines began adopting LCC business practices. They renegotiated labor contracts, unbundled services, and changed fee structures. As a consequence nearly every airline is selling U/LCC style tickets of one form or another _including_ American, United, and Delta. The closest match to legacy coach is being sold by Southwest, the _original_ LCC. That was the point after which the "legacy" airline died as an active concept for me.


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## adamj023 (Feb 17, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> More than a decade ago legacy airlines began adopting LCC business practices. They renegotiated labor contracts, unbundled services, and changed fee structures. As a consequence nearly every airline is selling U/LCC style tickets of one form or another _including_ American, United, and Delta. The closest match to legacy coach is being sold by Southwest, the _original_ LCC. That was the point after which the "legacy" airline died as an active concept for me.



Some LCC carriers include the most features like free bags and no change fee in their base fares so I wound agree in that sense. The legacy have ways to save on fees but it is driven by loyalty programs. Each has its own benefits and drawbacks. Legacies have more fare options and loyalty offerings. Southwest has three fare classes I believe. Legacies code the flights under multiple fare codes with different perimeters and guidelines on the differing ticket classes. I do believe LCC carriers are good alternatives for some people while others benefit more from legacy carriers. The ULCC I believe only benefits a small minority of customers and is more deceitful in their business practices. JetBlue was also considered a LCC but it seems to be going more in the legacy direction due to its alliance with AA. 

To me, the basic economy fares are just too restrictive for travel. Even if it comes to less money with your requirements in terms of actual fees charged and fees and what you think you need, if there are any necessary changes due to your own issues or related to the airline such as a flight delayed or cancelled and you want to change to another flight, a basic economy ticket is going to mean lower priority and more hassle and inconvenience and more risk of losing the entire fare you paid.


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## jis (Feb 17, 2022)

To a large extent the environment in which an airline is operating dictates which kind of service will succeed.

For example in an extremely price sensitive environment like India, an ULCC (IndiGo) is by far the largest airline serving most stations with the largest number of flights. The one real legacy carrier (Air India) for all practical purposes went out of business with huge debts and finally the government ate most of its debt and sold it off back to its previous private owner. There were other full service carriers that came and went bankrupt (Kingfisher, Jet) and there are current ones that are yet to become profitable. But the like of IndiaGo and such carry on. Incidentally there is an ULCC that is on the verge of bakruptcy too (Spice Jet). So all in all the core take away is that in a price sensitive environment unsurprisingly the cheapest provider tends to win, full service be damned. But to survive, basic service must be provided reliably.


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## adamj023 (Feb 17, 2022)

jis said:


> To a large extent the environment in which an airline is operating dictates which kind of service will succeed.
> 
> For example in an extremely price sensitive environment like India, an ULCC (IndiGo) is by far the largest airline serving most stations with the largest number of flights. The one real legacy carrier (Air India) for all practical purposes went out of business with huge debts and finally the government ate most of its debt and sold it off back to its previous private owner. There were other full service carriers that came and went bankrupt (Kingfisher, Jet) and there are current ones that are yet to become profitable. But the like of IndiaGo and such carry on. Incidentally there is an ULCC that is on the verge of bakruptcy too (Spice Jet). So all in all the core take away is that in a price sensitive environment unsurprisingly the cheapest provider tends to win, full service be damned. But to survive, basic service must be provided reliably.



Every country has a different market and my focus was on domestic USA based airlines. In Mexico ULCC Volaris seems to be doing better financially than Aeromexico which is the legacy carrier. Also more people in USA are going to Tijuana instead of San Diego for flights to Mexico by crossing over the passenger bridge from USA side. Volaris seems to be a large beneficiary. In USA the legacies and LCC are in stronger positions.


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## jebr (Feb 17, 2022)

adamj023 said:


> Some LCC carriers include the most features like free bags and no change fee in their base fares so I wound agree in that sense.



Southwest is the only major carrier in the US I'm aware of that offers free checked bags on all fares and hasn't introduced a basic economy-style ticket (at least not yet.) Unless you're flying Southwest, passengers need to check to see what particular fare they need that includes or allows buy-ups to include the things they need within a ticket.



adamj023 said:


> To me, the basic economy fares are just too restrictive for travel. Even if it comes to less money with your requirements in terms of actual fees charged and fees and what you think you need, if there are any necessary changes due to your own issues or related to the airline such as a flight delayed or cancelled and you want to change to another flight, a basic economy ticket is going to mean lower priority and more hassle and inconvenience and more risk of losing the entire fare you paid.



While I'm generally buying main cabin tickets these days (or on the ULCCs making sure that I'm comfortable losing the cost of the fare should I decide not to travel since close-in change fees with them are usually more than the cost of the ticket,) in my experience fare class matters very little if there's an airline cancellation or delay. Some personal examples:

I flew on Delta basic economy pre-pandemic, and during delays we were treated no differently than other passengers (nothing major was offered, though rebooking options were automatically triggered.)
On a United flight in basic economy that I took, we were offered the same snack/beverage cart options in the terminal during the delay as all the other passengers. Rebooking options were also automatically triggered pretty quickly.
On an Alaska flight with a five-hour delay (mechanical issues,) as a first class passenger we were offered the same $12 food voucher that all other passengers were offered (and automatically emailed.) We also had a $100 voucher for a future flight upon landing - not sure if that was due to first class or if everyone was offered that.
On the American flight I've mentioned before in this thread, we were booked on a main cabin (not basic economy) ticket. I'm not sure if it would've been even worse with basic economy, but from what it seemed like there we had no particular advantage on a main cabin ticket vs. basic economy. If nothing else, the rebooking line was the same for everyone!
The one thing that I've heard can matter (sometimes a lot) is your loyalty status with the airline. I've never had status with an airline, so I don't know how much it changes things, but there's usually at least special phone lines with shorter wait times. I've also heard reports that some airlines are much more lenient on rebooking on another airline for high-level elites than they are for general passengers. But, at least in my experience, basic economy vs. main cabin makes very little difference if the airline changes/cancels/delays your flight.


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## adamj023 (Feb 18, 2022)

jebr said:


> Southwest is the only major carrier in the US I'm aware of that offers free checked bags on all fares and hasn't introduced a basic economy-style ticket (at least not yet.) Unless you're flying Southwest, passengers need to check to see what particular fare they need that includes or allows buy-ups to include the things they need within a ticket.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree in many cases there will not be a difference but in cases where there is limited flight availability, basic economy tickets have lower priority and will be denied boarding before a regular economy ticket should it be necessary if there are not enough volunteers. I would also think that they would be boarded in the last tier when a flight is available if you don’t have other ways of getting priority boarding


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