# Cleveland considers how to downsize its airport



## CHamilton (Apr 19, 2014)

What can be done with Cleveland Hopkins' vacant Concourse D? A look to other airports might offer clues




> CLEVELAND, Ohio -- United Airlines' decision to stop flying out of Concourse Dat the Cleveland airport leaves a big property vacancy familiar to other airports that have had their hub status revoked.
> 
> What can be done with a multi-acre, multi-million dollar airport space that is no longer occupied by the tenants for which it was designed?
> 
> ...


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## NS VIA Fan (Apr 19, 2014)

At Montreal-Mirabel they didnt just close a concourse....they closed the terminal and nearly the whole airport.

http://citynoise.org/article/9697

Air France, Alitalia, Aeroflot, KLM, Lufthansa, El Al etc were all there but today only a portion remains open for cargo and a Bombardier aircraft factory. Some of the runways are now used for car racing.












......and the Airport Hotel (now closed) across from the Terminal.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 19, 2014)

I never knew why Cleveland had a "hub" airport. It never seemed logical to me. I hope the city can find something to do with it because considering the state of the airline industry (mergers with less flights)... I don't think those gates will be needed for a long, long time.

But those pictures of Montreal... yikes. It looks like an abandoned town from a movie. I'm expecting zombies to start walking out of the terminal doors at anytime.


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## jis (Apr 19, 2014)

The ultimate in airport closure and conversion is Berlin Tempelhof which when built had the world's largest most spectacular concourse, and was the pride and joy of Nazzi (modified spelling to get around word censor) Germany.

The two operational airports in Berlin are Tegel and Schoenfeld, while they try to recover from the Brandenberg airport fiasco and actually get the thing modified so that it can be opened as Berlin's new airport. Nobody I have talked to believes that Brandenberg will actually open in 2015. See? PANYNJ has good company in how many ways to screw up.

When Brandenberg, which shares one runway with Schoenfeld, opens, Schoenfeld will be shut down and torn down to be replaced by urban development. Same will be the case with Tegel, though there is a move afoot to try to keep it open since it is much closer to the city center and hence more convenient to use.

Maybe they can convert the vacant terminal building in Cleveland into a Convention Center or Museum or something like that


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## NS VIA Fan (Apr 19, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> But those pictures of Montreal... yikes. It looks like an abandoned town from a movie. I'm expecting zombies to start walking out of the terminal doors at anytime.


Scenes from the Tom Hanks movie "The Terminal" were shot at Mirabel.

>>>>>>>

In the seventies when it opened......Mirabel handled all International flights and Dorval (Trudeau) all Domestic and US flights. All flights now use Trudeau......thats the airport you see from passing VIA trains just west of the city.

Mirabel was 30 miles north of the city and a real pain for connections. If the proposed rail-link had been constructed.....it might still be used today. (A station was built in the terminal basement.....but never opened)


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## jis (Apr 19, 2014)

The interesting thing about the Germans in Berlin is they already have the high speed rail link to Brandenburg Airport ready to go, but no one know when the airport will open yet.


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## Ryan (Apr 19, 2014)

Exact opposite of IAD. 

Airport's been there for 50 years, and rail *might* make it there in time for its 60th birthday.


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## Anderson (Apr 19, 2014)

Shuttering an entire airport is in some ways easier than closing down part of one, since at least when everything gets closed you can repurpose the whole thing. With just a terminal closed, you usually can't repurpose a runway as a racetrack, for example, and you're stuck with a lot of security expenses. You might be able to trim off a few parking lots, but that is about it. Even in the case of Berlin Brandenburg, the fact is that you've got a whole set of terminals and associated facilities you're able to get rid of.


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## railiner (Apr 19, 2014)

Anderson said:


> Shuttering an entire airport is in some ways easier than closing down part of one, since at least when everything gets closed you can repurpose the whole thing. With just a terminal closed, you usually can't repurpose a runway as a racetrack, for example, and you're stuck with a lot of security expenses. You might be able to trim off a few parking lots, but that is about it. Even in the case of Berlin Brandenburg, the fact is that you've got a whole set of terminals and associated facilities you're able to get rid of.


Denver's Stapleton is a good example of the above....not much left to show a very busy international airport once occupied its convenient location, fully replaced by the DIA...

As for the wisdom of locating a hub airport at Cleveland....well Clevelanders like to call themselves "...the best location, in the nation".... 

Perhaps one day some new LCC will attempt a hub operation there....


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## afigg (Apr 19, 2014)

Anderson said:


> Shuttering an entire airport is in some ways easier than closing down part of one, since at least when everything gets closed you can repurpose the whole thing. With just a terminal closed, you usually can't repurpose a runway as a racetrack, for example, and you're stuck with a lot of security expenses. You might be able to trim off a few parking lots, but that is about it. Even in the case of Berlin Brandenburg, the fact is that you've got a whole set of terminals and associated facilities you're able to get rid of.


Agreed. It is a challenge to economically repurpose a passenger terminal at an airport. Maybe they could use for air cargo storage and shipping, but an airport with shrinking service likely already has more than enough air cargo and freight capacity. Same goes for a hotel at the airport.
Maybe the terminal could be converted to low cost office space for start-ups and small companies with the idea that an airport has lots of parking and highways and direct access to air travel. But commercial airports like to charge for parking and the terminal is likely a long walk from the parking lot compared to a run of the mill suburban office park. OTOH, the Cleveland airport does have rail transit service, so that could be a plus in finding a reuse the terminal. On the gripping hand, however, Cleveland does not exactly have a robust economy, so there are probably lots of low cost office space or empty plants in the region that can be moved into without the hassle of locating in airport terminal building.

Odds are that the terminal will sit mostly empty for many years until it is torn down. No reason to expect that the Cleveland airport is going to see major growth in air flights in the next several decades. Cleveland is not going to be an isolated case among the mid-sized city airports in the coming years in my opinion. Many smaller to mid-sized airports overbuilt in capacity prior to the 2008 crash for future air traffic volume that they are not ever going to see.


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## afigg (Apr 19, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Exact opposite of IAD.
> 
> Airport's been there for 50 years, and rail *might* make it there in time for its 60th birthday.


Nah, we will see DC Metro running to Dulles before its 60th anniversary. The primary construction contract for Silver Line Phase 2 was awarded last year with a contracted completion date of July, 2018. Even if the contractor runs 6 months late, like Dulles Transport Partners has for Phase 1, they will still get it running before 2022. Then Dulles Airport will catch up to Cleveland for rail transit access.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 19, 2014)

Austin turned the old Airport (Robert Mueller)into an Urban Village with Residential and Commercial Areas! The only sign that indicates that an Airport used to be there is the old Control Tower and the Street that runs past it is still named Airport Blvd.

(The "New" Airport (ABIA) is located at the old Bergstrom Air Force Base which the Federal Government gave to the City of Austin saving us several Billion dollars! Maybe Cleveland can do this and return to the Lake Front Airport or even the Akron Airport which is a functioning Airport for Commercial and Private Flights??


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## NW cannonball (Apr 19, 2014)

Quito's old (1960) airport, UIO, looks to be redeveloped pretty quickly with some green space and mixed housing and commercial space. But it's high-value land, near the city center in long narrow city on the shoulder of the Andes.

Kinda like Stapleton was, but far worse for an airport in many ways at almost twice the altitude, room for only the one runway, mountain real close to the west and a valley (gorge?) to the east.

Unfortunately for Cleveland, their excess land and buildings not so valuable as the Quito or Denver or Austin sites.


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## railiner (Apr 20, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> Austin turned the old Airport (Robert Mueller)into an Urban Village with Residential and Commercial Areas! The only sign that indicates that an Airport used to be there is the old Control Tower and the Street that runs past it is still named Airport Blvd.
> 
> (The "New" Airport (ABIA) is located at the old Bergstrom Air Force Base which the Federal Government gave to the City of Austin saving us several Billion dollars! Maybe Cleveland can do this and return to the Lake Front Airport or even the Akron Airport which is a functioning Airport for Commercial and Private Flights??


Cleveland's Burke Lakefront Airport does not have anywhere near the space or runways for mainline commercial flights...not even for the reduced service at Hopkins. It did for a time have a few commercial commuter flights, but currently is only for general aviation....


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## jis (Apr 20, 2014)

Good airport terminals should be good to convert to Malls or to office space. They are sort of almost there for both anyway.

Newark basically converted its North Terminal which was used by PeopleExpress into office and cargo handling space. Since then of course most of it has been dismantled and is slowly being eaten up by more hangar space for United. That area incidentally was where the original terminal in the original Newark Airport was located. The part of Newark Airport that is in Elizabeth was not even within the airport perimeter back then. Newark actually went through precipitous downturn in traffic after Idlewild was built. It finally recovered only in the 70s early 80s with the construction of the current terminal complex, and PeopleExpress.


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## afigg (Apr 20, 2014)

Looked up what is going on with the Memphis airport which is to undergo an active downsizing process. Another airport that got "de-hubbed". Memphis Daily News article from February, 2014: Memphis Airport Changes Reflect New Reality.



> Memphis International Airport, gutted by the downsizing of Delta Air Lines, is pursuing a $114 million “concourse modernization” plan that will eliminate a large number of gates and result in upgrades to what is left.
> 
> Around one-fourth of the overall gates will be torn down and the remaining facilities will be upgraded, according to a plan outlined at the Memphis-Shelby County Airport Authority board meeting Thursday, Feb. 20.
> 
> Many airport functions, including gate operations, baggage claims, retail, food and beverage, will be consolidated into Concourse B, which will undergo a massive renovation. Ticketing operations will remain in Concourses A, B and C


What they are really doing is shrinking from 3 concourses to one improved concourse B and mothballing the rest that is not to be torn down:



> Around 20 gates at the southern ends of Concourses A and C will be demolished and the remaining portions of both concourses will be mothballed for future use.


What we have in the case of Memphis and Cleveland are cities with Amtrak LD train service, but have rail corridors in good enough condition that could be upgraded for corridor service to Chicago without that great an expense to provide an regional option to air travel. And Cleveland could benefit from the 3C corridor. But without political leadership that supports developing passenger rail, nothing is going to happen in either state.


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## railiner (Apr 20, 2014)

Have to agree with the benefit of developing the '3C' Corridor....I don't think there is another opportunity to connect three (or more) large cities in such close proximity, the endpoints of which already have some Amtrak service, in any other location....what a shame that politics is such an obstruction....


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## fairviewroad (Apr 21, 2014)

Anderson said:


> You might be able to trim off a few parking lots, but that is about it.


But in theory, most of the decreased passengers numbers at CLE will be from a lack of connecting traffic, so the need for landside services should

more or less remain the same (unless you have leakage to other airports in the region as a result of higher fares/fewer choices at CLE.)

Anyhow, I'm not sure that it has to be that complicated. Cinder blocks do a nice job in blocking human access to unused concourses. You don't have

to heat, cool, or light the ghost gates. Send a Roomba through once a day to take care of the dust from crumbling ceiling tiles (okay, now I'm getting

a bit facetious)...


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## saxman (Apr 24, 2014)

One problem not mentioned here, is the terminal in question is not accessible by the landside. It's a building out in the middle of the operations area, and you only get there by underground walkway. I think it'll just be used by airport police for training for the time being. There would have to be some major infrastructure upgrades to get a road to it if other businesses were to have an office there.

I remember when Delta pulled out of DFW, that they closed down the old satellite to terminal E, and just sat empty since 2005. But since Spirit really increased service, they opened it back up last year. Then again we're talking the 4th largest metro area to a much smaller metro area.


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## NW cannonball (Apr 24, 2014)

Gets to look a lot like the inner-city problems when the railroads got overbuilt. Yards and shops big enough to handle the old high-maintenance steam were way too big for the time.

Long, slow redevelopment, that isn't done yet, many places.


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