# Texas Eagle Sightseer lounge discontinued



## Rasputin

I saw on another list that the Texas Eagle sightseer lounge was being discontinued "permanently" between Chicago and San Antonio. 

Evidently a desperate move on Amtrak's part to clearly show that their trains are not worth riding.


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## Cal

This is very annoying. The TE route is over 30 hours. So 30 hours of being either in your room or your seat. Poor decision.


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## Sidney

The TE had the Sightseer Car until the Pandemic hit. I thought it was just temporary. How much money are they saving by eliminating the car?

Made to order cooked meals and a Sightseer car are two of Amtrak's biggest draws.Hopefully the former will be returning. I believe the Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans also have no SSL car. I wonder if that is permanent. The only one overnight train with the car is the Coast Starlight.

Another idiotic decision by Amtrak.


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## TrackWalker

So who do you think is going to get it?


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## A.H. Rudd

Sidney said:


> I believe the Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans also have no SSL car.



I rode the CONO from CHI to NOL on April 19. I’m happy to report the sightseer lounge was in the consist. I asked our conductor and she said it never left (thankfully.)


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## me_little_me

Another effort to kill of LD trains.

If they cared, they would inform everyone of the REASONABLE explanation for taking away amenities. Since they don't ever do that, it is reasonable to say it is a deliberate act to continue Anderson's program to dump LD overnight service and replace it with daytime trains or not replace it at all.


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## frequentflyer

Hard to take Amtrak seriously. How much fuel Amtrak do you save not pullping a lounge car? Might as well go ahead make it single level equipmen, and that may be next.


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## HammerJack

That’s too bad. The SSL was a nice amenity for coach passengers. At least they’ll keep the Cross Country Cafes. They just need to open the tables back up already.


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## MaisieM

Oh no. Without that, I'm not sure I really want to travel on the TE! It's looking increasingly likely that we'll just cancel our trip planned for July.


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## 20th Century Rider

Huh? Now what? they're taking away the sightseer car on the TE? As I put together a big trip for next October, I gotta find out more and more of what will be less and less?

50 years of Amtrak consistently regressing, deteriorating, declining, worsening, degenerating, and dismantling it's system; the only thing that's going up is pricing. 

Sad way to celebrate the 50th year anniversary.


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## caravanman

That's a blow! Where can I sleep overnight in future on the Texas Eagle?


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## Everydaymatters

Since they are taking away the Sightseer Lounge, hopefully they are at least putting in a cafe car that can be used as a respite from the coach seat...for the passengers,? Sarcasm here due to seating in cafe cars being monopolized by crew.


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## VentureForth

How can they get rid of the SSL? That's where the cafe car is (first floor). Without a cafe, there is literally NO FOOD available between SAN and CHI (Diner gets booked up by sleeper pax)? This is asinine.


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## Bob Dylan

VentureForth said:


> How can they get rid of the SSL? That's where the cafe car is (first floor). Without a cafe, there is literally NO FOOD available between SAN and CHI (Diner gets booked up by sleeper pax)? This is asinine.


The Cafe is operated in the small end of the Diner ( CCC) that runs on the CONO and the Texas Eagle, but Coach passengers have to eat and drink in their Seats, they're not allowed to sit in the Crews " Lounge", which is where they hang out now that the Transdorms are also not operating on the Eagles.

The other bad feature of this "hybrid" car is that the LSA and SCA gets to make up their own rules as to whether or not SLEEPER Passengers can eat in the " Diner ",or have to pick up their " Meals" in a "To Go " Bag or have it delivered by the 1 SCA on the Train and eat in their rooms.

On my last 2 trips on the Eagle (Round trips)to Dallas and San Antonio, it was 50/50 as to whether we had a choice, and also the Cafe would be Closed for Hours as the Overworked LSA would be busy heating and packing up the Sleeping Car Passengers meals, sometimes assisted by the also Overworked SCA and the 1 Coach Attendant!().


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## Rasputin

HammerJack said:


> That’s too bad. The SSL was a nice amenity for coach passengers. At least they’ll keep the Cross Country Cafes. They just need to open the tables back up already.


That is very true but it was a great amenity for sleeping car passengers as well. We do not care to sit in our roomette all day.


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## MaisieM

Can I please just clarify something about this? Being an Brit and a relative Amtrak 'newbie' (only have done one other LD trip before, on the CZ in 2019), does this mean that we will have to stay in our sleeper for the entire trip, with the exception of meal times (if of course, traditional dining returns by 2 July)?


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## Sidney

Does anybody know the "thinking" behind the decision to not return the SSL car to the TE? Do the idiot(s) who made that decision rationalize the scenery isn't as good as the other trains so passengers wouldn"t miss it,?

How much money can they be saving,? 

When I first began riding in 1990,I was very impressed with the Sightseer car and have been ever since. This is a great disservice to both Coach and sleeper passengers.. This is close to the decision to eliminate traditional.dining on the Eastern trains. As that jerk Anderson stated...this will revolutionize how people eat on the train.


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## Amtrakfflyer

Even worse and apparently going under the radar is the fact Amtrak is only selling Bedrooms in the second sleeper. Roomettes are not for revenue sale according to sources on said thread. Understandable on the surface considering no dorm but looking deeper there are only 3 or 4 onboard service crew members needing bedding. They could take the lower level roomettes still leaving 8 for sale upstairs.


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## 20th Century Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Even worse and apparently going under the radar is the fact Amtrak is only selling Bedrooms in the second sleeper. Roomettes are not for revenue sale according to sources on said thread. Understandable on the surface considering no dorm but looking deeper there are only 3 or 4 onboard service crew members needing bedding.


As service declines, pricing goes up. Is there any 'silver lining' anywhere?

At least flex dining includes the 4 Amtrak food groups...
1 - fat
2 - sodium
3 - starch
4 - sugar

At least the lack of the sightseer car will have you appreciate the stretch stops more... and you can look at the scenery from promotional literature.

At least the higher pricing for sleeping accommodations still includes air to breathe.


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## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> As service declines, pricing goes up. Is there any 'silver lining' anywhere?



Yes, I am told by some that it is called "Southwest Airlines."


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## frequentflyer

Sidney said:


> Does anybody know the "thinking" behind the decision to not return the SSL car to the TE? Do the idiot(s) who made that decision rationalize the scenery isn't as good as the other trains so passengers wouldn"t miss it,?
> 
> How much money can they be saving,?
> 
> When I first began riding in 1990,I was very impressed with the Sightseer car and have been ever since. This is a great disservice to both Coach and sleeper passengers.. This is close to the decision to eliminate traditional.dining on the Eastern trains. As that jerk Anderson stated...this will revolutionize how people eat on the train.



A coach and sleeper car carry revenue pax, the SSL does not, and really does not pay for itself accounting wise.


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## MaisieM

I'm now even more depressed than I was before. I think that even if President Biden decides to let us in to the US, I'll cancel our TE booking. Our favourite parts of our previous trip were sitting in the SSL and eating in the dining car. In fact, we did little else, apart from sleep. Drat.


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## 20th Century Rider

MaisieM said:


> I'm now even more depressed than I was before. I think that even if President Biden decides to let us in to the US, I'll cancel our TE booking. Our favourite parts of our previous trip were sitting in the SSL and eating in the dining car. In fact, we did little else, apart from sleep. Drat.


I love those UK trains! Compared to what's here in the USA, they are relatively modern, comfortable, and go fast. Am surprised when I see bloggers complaining about the service in the British Isles. 

Comparatively you may be disappointed with our rail system. The food is pathetic, there are breakdowns and delays, the rooms can be very hot and stuffy, and one never knows what problem will happen next. Sorry we can't do better!


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## Sidney

frequentflyer said:


> A coach and sleeper car carry revenue pax, the SSL does not, and really does not pay for itself accounting wise.


That sucks. So if that is the reasoning why doesn't Amtrak get rid of all the SSL cars? Maybe they will...the SIghtseer car is an important part of the train and passengers love it. How much can they save by eliminating it and how much more can Amtrak do to **** off their customers who are paying sky high prices for sleepers?


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## caravanman

MaisieM said:


> I'm now even more depressed than I was before. I think that even if President Biden decides to let us in to the US, I'll cancel our TE booking. Our favourite parts of our previous trip were sitting in the SSL and eating in the dining car. In fact, we did little else, apart from sleep. Drat.


 I don't know what the Amtrak cancellation policy is in these Covid times? They may offer a voucher for future use, which is not great for us Brits. I hope you can get a full refund?
Although it is still a few months away, I am not too optimistic about travel to the USA being allowed by the summer. Good luck, anyway!


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## Palmetto

MaisieM said:


> I'm now even more depressed than I was before. I think that even if President Biden decides to let us in to the US, I'll cancel our TE booking. Our favourite parts of our previous trip were sitting in the SSL and eating in the dining car. In fact, we did little else, apart from sleep. Drat.




That's exactly what Amtrak leadership wants, IMO.


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## frequentflyer

Isn't there a TE advocacy group that will make hay about this? Based here in Texas, forgot the name.


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## jis

frequentflyer said:


> Isn't there a TE advocacy group that will make hay about this? Based here in Texas, forgot the name.







__





Texas Eagle Marketing and Peformance Organization, TEMPO






www.tempo-rail.org


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## 20th Century Rider

Trying to make sense out of 'downgrading' the Texas Eagle... it is the only Amtrak run at this time that goes three nights and three days... why would they want to take the sightseer lounge off???

I get it that there needs to be some kind of food service car for snacks and traditional dining... if traditional dining ever does come back. Perhaps they will have a combo dining car with snack service on one end and full meals on the other. 

Gosh, who knows. Not very much to be motivated about! ‼ ‼‼


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## jis

20th Century Rider said:


> Trying to make sense out of 'downgrading' the Texas Eagle... it is the only Amtrak run at this time that goes three nights and three days... why would they want to take the sightseer lounge off???


The downgrade is only to the Chicago - San Antonio Texas Eagle. It will have a CCC, so there will be cafe service.

The two cars that go through to Los Angeles have access to full service, such as it is, on the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and Los Angeles.

The excuse for the downgrade is the same as for all other one night LD trains. Not condoning it, but just providing the warped thinking that goes behind all this.

I still cannot understand why they have to continue with this food service cost reduction exercise when they have been funded to provide food service. Maybe some more prescriptive language needs to be included in the Authorization Bill.

Oddly and most fortunately, this malady has not quite hit the Coast Starlight yet.


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## Sidney

The SSL car is on the Sunset Limited,so if you are going from Chi-Lax you are without the car through San Antonio. 

In another thread I mentioned the TE/SL run from Chi-Lax has increased for low bucket roomette from $623 to $899. As you said,20th Century Rider,you are paying more and more for less and less.


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## Mailliw

frequentflyer said:


> A coach and sleeper car carry revenue pax, the SSL does not, and really does not pay for itself accounting wise.


I wonder if an SSL could be modified to have crew accommodations on the lower level. It could free up revenue space in the sleeping cars and provide amenities to passengers at the same at time.


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## Amtrakfflyer

The lower level of a normal sleeper could house everyone. 6 rooms while other sleeper attendant sleeps in his/her car. No modifications needed.


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## Cal

frequentflyer said:


> A coach and sleeper car carry revenue pax, the SSL does not, and really does not pay for itself accounting wise.


When speaking to an LSA who had been running the cafe car on the CZ on my most recent trip, he said they would frequently get a few thousand dollars in sales. How much does it cost to run it?


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## neroden

Cal said:


> When speaking to an LSA who had been running the cafe car on the CZ on my most recent trip, he said they would frequently get a few thousand dollars in sales. How much does it cost to run it?


The cafe cars are documented and admitted to be profitable, on essentially every single train, even with Amtrak's warped accounting.

I do wonder if this is something else: a shortage of SSLs. Amtrak was talking a while back about running short on them as they intermittently got wrecked and needed to be in for repairs more often. If you had to pull it from one train, the TE may well have been the lowest-revenue one.


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## Cal

neroden said:


> The cafe cars are documented and admitted to be profitable, on essentially every single train, even with Amtrak's warped accounting.
> 
> I do wonder if this is something else: a shortage of SSLs. Amtrak was talking a while back about running short on them as they intermittently got wrecked and needed to be in for repairs more often. If you had to pull it from one train, the TE may well have been the lowest-revenue one.


That is true, I believe they only ordered 50 in total, right? 25 I's and 25 II's? -


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## MaisieM

20th Century Rider said:


> I love those UK trains! Compared to what's here in the USA, they are relatively modern, comfortable, and go fast. Am surprised when I see bloggers complaining about the service in the British Isles.
> 
> Comparatively you may be disappointed with our rail system. The food is pathetic, there are breakdowns and delays, the rooms can be very hot and stuffy, and one never knows what problem will happen next. Sorry we can't do better!



Don't apologise! Our trip on the CZ in 2019 was one of our best travel experiences ever. As for trains over here in the UK. If you've never stood at Westbury atation at 2100 on a wet Sunday, you haven't experienced misery.


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## MaisieM

caravanman said:


> I don't know what the Amtrak cancellation policy is in these Covid times? They may offer a voucher for future use, which is not great for us Brits. I hope you can get a full refund?
> Although it is still a few months away, I am not too optimistic about travel to the USA being allowed by the summer. Good luck, anyway!



They're offering a voucher with no change fees but I'm going to push for a full refund based on the non-return of trad dining by the promised date and no SSL. As you say though, it's probably moot as we won't be allowed in anyway!


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## caravanman

I imagine the fact that you are not allowed into the country would carry more weight than anything else for a refund? I suggest when you phone to ask for a supervisor if the assistant can't help.


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## MaisieM

caravanman said:


> I imagine the fact that you are not allowed into the country would carry more weight than anything else for a refund? I suggest when you phone to ask for a supervisor if the assistant can't help.


Quite possibly! I'm going to hang on for another couple of weeks and then craft an email.


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## caravanman

Emails often seem to generate a standard reply...

I contacted the Amtrak international department: [email protected] 

They mostly dealt with overseas rail pass queries, but I found them helpful with obtaining a refund at one time. Maybe give them a shot first? Fingers crossed in any case!


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## cirdan

MaisieM said:


> They're offering a voucher with no change fees but I'm going to push for a full refund based on the non-return of trad dining by the promised date and no SSL. As you say though, it's probably moot as we won't be allowed in anyway!



I had a trip on the SWC planned last November but had to cancel due to not being able to enter the US.

I phoned the number and the lady there was very helpful. She explained that my ticket was actually non refundable but she offered to ask her supervisor and then I did get a full refund. The whole thing didn't take more than a few minutes. I was very satisfied.


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## toddinde

me_little_me said:


> Another effort to kill of LD trains.
> 
> If they cared, they would inform everyone of the REASONABLE explanation for taking away amenities. Since they don't ever do that, it is reasonable to say it is a deliberate act to continue Anderson's program to dump LD overnight service and replace it with daytime trains or not replace it at all.


So, the TE serves some of the largest cities in the US and the fastest growing region of the country, and the geniuses at Amtrak decide to make it their worst long distance product. Just as the Capitol Limited links the nations capital to its third largest city, through spectacular scenery, and also no Sightseer Lounge. Is Gardner continuing his sabotage routine?


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## 20th Century Rider

toddinde said:


> So, the TE serves some of the largest cities in the US and the fastest growing region of the country, and the geniuses at Amtrak decide to make it their worst long distance product. Just as the Capitol Limited links the nations capital to its third largest city, through spectacular scenery, and also no Sightseer Lounge. Is Gardner continuing his sabotage routine?


The apparent answer is that there is no solid leadership... just disjointed 'managers' running around in circles.

To put it another way... "Who's minding the store?"


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## Railpaxscott

Is this is Flynn's way of making people want to take the train? 
Pathetic!!! Pathetic!!!!


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## fdaley

frequentflyer said:


> A coach and sleeper car carry revenue pax, the SSL does not, and really does not pay for itself accounting wise.



It doesn't pay for itself, but eliminating it probably means that fewer people choose to ride the Texas Eagle, Sunset and Capitol because Amtrak has downgraded the onboard experience so much. Another exercise in boneheaded accounting.



jis said:


> I still cannot understand why they have to continue with this food service cost reduction exercise when they have been funded to provide food service. Maybe some more prescriptive language needs to be included in the Authorization Bill.



Prescriptive language is probably the best solution. But you'd think Congress and the administration would realize that if they have to write prescriptive language about something like this, they probably have the wrong team in charge at Amtrak.


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## fdaley

And what are they doing with these cars now, just storing them? So dumb. Or is there really a shortage of these cars? If so, wouldn't it make sense to explain that to the public?


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## jis

Cal said:


> That is true, I believe they only ordered 50 in total, right? 25 I's and 25 II's? -


Yes

The current status is

Superliner I original fleet 25, Currently active 19
Superliner II original fleet 25 Currently active 23

Total active 42.



fdaley said:


> It doesn't pay for itself, but eliminating it probably means that fewer people choose to ride the Texas Eagle, Sunset and Capitol because Amtrak has downgraded the onboard experience so much. Another exercise in boneheaded accounting.


The Sunset Limited still has an SSL. As I have mentioned before only the single night runs except the Coast Starlight have lost the SSL and all have a CCC, so they still have not lost Cafe service. It is just delivered differently.

I still wonder why the Amtrak Board and Management is hell bent on reducing food service cost when they are neither under the rpessure to make food service loss free or make the voerall passenger service profitable. And they still keep asking for yet more money without having uch to show for it in return specially on the National Account?


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## Rasputin

jis said:


> Yes
> 
> The current status is
> 
> Superliner I original fleet 25, Currently active 19
> Superliner II original fleet 25 Currently active 23
> 
> Total active 42.



Has anyone determined how many SSLs were in active service pre-pandemic? Is there actually a shortage of them once pre-pandemic service is restored?


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## fdaley

I realize the Sunset still has a sightseer lounge. But if you want to go from, say, Chicago to Tucson, you're without a lounge car for a large part of the trip. That makes the train a much less appealing option overall compared with past trips, so maybe you don't go or you decide to fly. So it becomes a negative for ridership on the Sunset as well. And of course, all of these downgrades reduce the appeal of travel that involves multiple trains in the national network.


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## jis

fdaley said:


> I realize the Sunset still has a sightseer lounge. But if you want to go from, say, Chicago to Tucson, you're without a lounge car for a large part of the trip. That makes the train a much less appealing option overall compared with past trips, so maybe you don't go or you decide to fly. So it becomes a negative for ridership on the Sunset as well. And of course, all of these downgrades reduce the appeal of travel that involves multiple trains in the national network.


AFAICT ( and I could be wrong on this one) Amtrak accounts for the 421/422 ridership as for the TE. Which already works against Sunset's total ridership.


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## 20th Century Rider

Everydaymatters said:


> Since they are taking away the Sightseer Lounge, hopefully they are at least putting in a cafe car that can be used as a respite from the coach seat...for the passengers,? Sarcasm here due to seating in cafe cars being monopolized by crew.


It's apparent... as was stated several times on this forum regarding a decline in service... the passenger is at the bottom of the pecking order!


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## OlympianHiawatha

I am glad AGR Points are redeemable for other choices as I have over 100,000 of them to cash in. My "train" of choice is now the 737!


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## 20th Century Rider

Palmetto said:


> That's exactly what Amtrak leadership wants, IMO.


IMO... agree with you!


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## Rasputin

The Texas Eagle is a long trip from Chicago to San Antonio - 32 hours. I believe It is the earliest of the long distance trains to leave Chicago and departs at 1:45 p.m. It is not scheduled to arrive in San Antonio until about 10 p.m. the next day. So it is a long first day out and a longer second day. The two night Southwest Chief is only about 11 hours longer going all the way from Chicago to LA. What is Amtrak management thinking of? Have they fallen on their heads (maybe that is an observation and not a real question.) Get real! This train needs and deserves an SSL and it is an outrage to see this service with so much potential downgraded.


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## jis

Time for TEMPO to step upto the plate again I guess.


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## 20th Century Rider

OlympianHiawatha said:


> I am glad AGR Points are redeemable for other choices as I have over 100,000 of them to cash in. My "train" of choice is now the 737!


But have you seen the offerings??? The best use of points is for rail travel. According to 'The Points Guy' Amtrak is valuing your points at 0.83 to 1 cent apiece for hotel and rental car redemptions, which is sub-par. I have found that a one night hotel stay is the equivalent of several hundred dollars worth of Amtrak travel.

No surprise they are downgrading their rewards system along with everything else. The best deal was with Choice Hotels... but now they have been eliminated from the program.

Meh! Feeling like I am caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to silver linings for Amtrak.


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## 20th Century Rider

Rasputin said:


> The Texas Eagle is a long trip from Chicago to San Antonio - 32 hours. I believe It is the earliest of the long distance trains to leave Chicago and departs at 1:45 p.m. It is not scheduled to arrive in San Antonio until about 10 p.m. the next day. So it is a long first day out and a longer second day. The two night Southwest Chief is only about 11 hours longer going all the way from Chicago to LA. What is Amtrak management thinking of? Have they fallen on their heads (maybe that is an observation and not a real question.) Get real! This train needs and deserves an SSL and it is an outrage to see this service with so much potential downgraded.



I guess we should still be grateful that they haven't discontinued the engine that is needed to pull the TE!


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## jis

Petition ...









Sign the Petition


Bring back the Texas Eagle Sightseer Lounge!




www.change.org


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## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> Petition ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sign the Petition
> 
> 
> Bring back the Texas Eagle Sightseer Lounge!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.change.org


Yep! I signed it!


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## Sidney

How much money can Amtrak be saving by eliminating the SSL car? It's like they are deliberately discouraging people from long distance travel. Anyone taking Coach has nowhere to go on a long trip besides their seat.

I'll be on the TE in two weeks. I booked it for late May in anticipation of the return of traditional dining and the SSL car. We all know how that turned out.

I just hope the bonehead management doesn't do any further damage. Sky high sleeper pricesand fewer amenities. Glad I booked a roomette before the prices jumped up by almost $300. This will be my last TE trip for quite some time.


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## me_little_me

frequentflyer said:


> A coach and sleeper car carry revenue pax, the SSL does not, and really does not pay for itself accounting wise.


Neither does the space occupied by the restrooms. Good for at least 4 more coach seats/car.


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## me_little_me

We seem to have forgotten that the Sunset runs only 3 times a week. No SSL on the TE on those days that the Sunset doesn't run? That means no SSL at times on one of the longer trains.


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## lordsigma

There are other, less negative, possibilities that could explain this situation. It could be this is a temporary move due to the return of daily service and making sure enough cars in good order are available for the daily service on the trans con routes and CS. The Superliners are also due to get an interior refresh - it could be this is being done for logistical and staffing reasons for now and the SSL may come back eventually once all the cars are refreshed. I don't have any inside information or anything just trying to offer an alternative glass half full possibility..


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## Cal

lordsigma said:


> There are other, less negative, possibilities that could explain this situation. It could be this is a temporary move due to the return of daily service and making sure enough cars in good order are available for the daily service on the trans con routes and CS. The Superliners are also due to get an interior refresh - it could be this is being done for logistical and staffing reasons for now and the SSL may come back eventually once all the cars are refreshed. I don't have any inside information or anything just trying to offer an alternative glass half full possibility..


Amtrak staff have said Amtrak has no plans to return for SSLs to the TE once daily service returns.


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## Palmetto

Cal said:


> Amtrak staff have said Amtrak has no plans to return for SSLs to the TE once daily service returns.




Which staff? If you're referring to the reservationists in the call centers, they seem not to have a clue as to what's going on out in the field.


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## Cal

Palmetto said:


> Which staff? If you're referring to the reservationists in the call centers, they seem not to have a clue as to what's going on out in the field.


OBS and conductors


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## lordsigma

Cal said:


> OBS and conductors


Understood - but there were also crew reports that traditional dining would never be returning anywhere even after the pandemic. Rumors sometimes only end up partially true or don’t end up panning out. Never is a long time and sometimes things change.


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## bms

Amtrak got all this additional public funding, but the people running it still seem committed to the goal of cutting service to make a profit. If President Biden and Secy of State Buttigieg think it's worth investing money to improve service, they need to get rid of some holdovers and put people in power who share their goal.


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## Just-Thinking-51

I do agree with ”bms” share goals.



> The current status is
> Superliner I original fleet 25, Currently active 19
> Superliner II original fleet 25 Currently active 23
> Total active 42.



About 37 are need for service.

Since Amtrak like to have 20% in the shops, that a available of 34 which is lower than the current fleet needs.

Not given a excuse just put the numbers out.


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## PaTrainFan

bms said:


> Amtrak got all this additional public funding, but the people running it still seem committed to the goal of cutting service to make a profit. If President Biden and Secy of State Buttigieg think it's worth investing money to improve service, they need to get rid of some holdovers and put people in power who share their goal.



They don't have it yet. Congress has yet to appropriate "all this additional public funding."


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## Willbridge

Cal said:


> That is true, I believe they only ordered 50 in total, right? 25 I's and 25 II's? -


They weren't part of the original Superliner plans and were added to the orders with the bare minimum to cover the Western long-distance trains.


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## MaisieM

caravanman said:


> Emails often seem to generate a standard reply...
> 
> I contacted the Amtrak international department: [email protected]
> 
> They mostly dealt with overseas rail pass queries, but I found them helpful with obtaining a refund at one time. Maybe give them a shot first? Fingers crossed in any case!


That's good to know, thank you!


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## MaisieM

cirdan said:


> I had a trip on the SWC planned last November but had to cancel due to not being able to enter the US.
> 
> I phoned the number and the lady there was very helpful. She explained that my ticket was actually non refundable but she offered to ask her supervisor and then I did get a full refund. The whole thing didn't take more than a few minutes. I was very satisfied.


That's heartening to hear, thanks.


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## Amtrakfflyer

We’ve spent a lot of time beating this to death. Let’s get some emails and calls out to all pertinent people involved. Congress, DOT, Amtrak, Amtrak’s board. Amtrak’s board may not give a dam but they don’t have the Trump Administrations anti Amtrak agenda to hide behind anymore. Coscia’s responses to me in the past have been about profitability and being a good steward of public funds. Im curious to see how the Board‘s form letter has changed since the election.


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## toddinde

20th Century Rider said:


> The apparent answer is that there is no solid leadership... just disjointed 'managers' running around in circles.
> 
> To put it another way... "Who's minding the store?"


You’re right. It’s the cost cutting mentality that rewards managers for cutting costs. I haven’t seen a salad on Amtrak since 2018. They’re always magically not available. It’s time for advocates to demand better service including a return of the Sightseer Lounge to the Texas Eagle. I’ll write a letter today.


----------



## TrackWalker

toddinde said:


> I’ll write a letter today.


Always the best action.

And then have two friends write.

And then they each have two friends write....


----------



## tonys96

The Eagle is my "home" train. Without a ssl, it will join the Eastern trains on my "no ride list'


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TrackWalker said:


> Always the best action.
> 
> And then have two friends write.
> 
> And then they each have two friends write....


Yes, but is anyone listening???

I wonder if perhaps the entire AU gang got together with some kind of a group letter for Amtrak Joe... would that make a difference???

If all this unhappy service cutting is happening just as the promo folks are throwing the 5th anniversary bash... perhaps those who have some kind of influence may take note!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes, but is anyone listening???
> 
> I wonder if perhaps the entire AU gang got together with some kind of a group letter for Amtrak Joe... would that make a difference???
> 
> If all this unhappy service cutting is happening just as the promo folks are throwing the 5th anniversary bash... perhaps those who have some kind of influence may take note!


I mean't to say 50th Anniversary Bash. Guess I made that mistake because I am so overcome with Amtrak's deterioration!


----------



## TrackWalker

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes, but is anyone listening???
> 
> I wonder if perhaps the entire AU gang got together with some kind of a group letter for Amtrak Joe... would that make a difference???
> 
> If all this unhappy service cutting is happening just as the promo folks are throwing the 5th anniversary bash... perhaps those who have some kind of influence may take note!


Activism is always more productive than simply grousing amongst each other on a website.


----------



## Rasputin

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes, but is anyone listening???
> 
> If all this unhappy service cutting is happening just as the promo folks are throwing the 5th anniversary bash... perhaps those who have some kind of influence may take note!


This is brought to us by the same company which canned National Train Day which should be tomorrow. They just couldn't stand all the free publicity.


----------



## Griffin T. Murphey DDS

Sometimes it seems like they are on a planned path to destroy a useful National passenger rail service.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Where's the RPA on these cutbacks?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> The Cafe is operated in the small end of the Diner ( CCC) that runs on the CONO and the Texas Eagle, but Coach passengers have to eat and drink in their Seats, they're not allowed to sit in the Crews " Lounge", which is where they hang out now that the Transdorms are also not operating on the Eagles.
> 
> The other bad feature of this "hybrid" car is that the LSA and SCA gets to make up their own rules as to whether or not SLEEPER Passengers can eat in the " Diner ",or have to pick up their " Meals" in a "To Go " Bag or have it delivered by the 1 SCA on the Train and eat in their rooms.
> 
> On my last 2 trips on the Eagle (Round trips)to Dallas and San Antonio, it was 50/50 as to whether we had a choice, and also the Cafe would be Closed for Hours as the Overworked LSA would be busy heating and packing up the Sleeping Car Passengers meals, sometimes assisted by the also Overworked SCA and the 1 Coach Attendant!().


Service deterioration is when they cut back on staff to the point that each is doing the work of 3, and then cut back on the services and amenities! Then raise the prices!

Seems like we're missing the train...


----------



## Bob Dylan

MaisieM said:


> Can I please just clarify something about this? Being an Brit and a relative Amtrak 'newbie' (only have done one other LD trip before, on the CZ in 2019), does this mean that we will have to stay in our sleeper for the entire trip, with the exception of meal times (if of course, traditional dining returns by 2 July)?


You can "Walk the Train", ie go from one end to another,Visit the Cafe Car( Mask required)and get off during Fresh Air Stops( ask your Attendant before going too far from Trainside),and of course if there is a Sightseer Lounge, you can visit there.

Hopefully Traditional Dining will return by 2July !


----------



## Cal

Bob Dylan said:


> You can "Walk the Train", ie go from one end to another,Visit the Cafe Car( Mask required)and get off during Fresh Air Stops( ask your Attendant before going too far from Trainside),and of course if there is a Sightseer Lounge, you can visit there.
> 
> Hopefully Traditional Dining will return by 2July !


I did that today on the Pacific Surfliner! Checked how many people were on, went to see the 'railfan window'.


----------



## VentureForth

20th Century Rider said:


> As service declines, pricing goes up. Is there any 'silver lining' anywhere?


Yet the subsidies are greater than ever.



jis said:


> The current status is
> 
> Superliner I original fleet 25, Currently active 19
> Superliner II original fleet 25 Currently active 23
> 
> Total active 42.


What is the disposition of the 8 inactive? Scrapped? Disabled beyond repair? Or deferred railworthiness?


----------



## Cal

VentureForth said:


> Yet the subsidies are greater than ever.
> 
> 
> What is the disposition of the 8 inactive? Scrapped? Disabled beyond repair? Or deferred railworthiness?


This might provide a little bit of information, it hasn't been updated in a while and I'm not sure how reliable it is, I think it's pretty good. According to it, it says that 6 have been wrecked. Amtrak Superliner


----------



## jis

VentureForth said:


> What is the disposition of the 8 inactive? Scrapped? Disabled beyond repair? Or deferred railworthiness?


Disposition of SSLs that are OOS as listed in David Warner's update to Amtrak by the Numbers web page augmented with information from Dan Aynsworth's Superliner web page:


33001 Stored Apr08 For Sale May19
33010 Stored Dec06 For Sale May19
33012 Stored Dec20
33013 Stored Apr04 For Sale May19, wrecked Flora Benton MS 4/6/04 estimated cost of repair over $2 million
33017 Stored May98 For Sale May19, shopped for overhaul, never returned from it, possible that some major structural defect was found.
33018 Stored Dec20
33032 Wrecked 2010, Fire in Oakland, unlikely to be fixed
33045 Retired 2016 Stored Dead since 2002, Kensington MD derailment, to be scrapped

Safe to say that 6 are not coming back. The two stored in 2020 might come back.


----------



## Mailliw

Amtrak is selling SSLs?


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> Amtrak is selling SSLs?


Amtrak put up a whole bunch of cars for sale in 2019. There were four SSLs in the lot. They are all being sold as is, so many of them may not be any good without considerable additional investment. Some are wrecks for sale as junk too.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> Amtrak put up a whole bunch of cars for sale in 2019. There were four SSLs in the lot. They are all being sold as is, so many of them may not be any good without considerable additional investment. Some are wrecks for sale as junk too.


Have any of them sold?


----------



## jis

Cal said:


> Have any of them sold?


Specifically about SSLs I don't know. But in general, many have been sold. @Seaboard92 knows more about all that than I do. Even a bunch of Amfleet Is were acquired by a tourist operation.


----------



## saxman

Basically this is new Amtrak management being run again from out east. They don't ride these trains, but they think they know what is best. Since many managers were retired or asked to leave in some cases, many with years of institutional knowledge, this is what we are dealing with again. TEMPO was able to convince Amtrak to keep the SSL on the TE back in the mid aughts or so. Hopefully they can do so again, but I'm not sure how much power TEMPO has now. They had a lot of connections with those prior stated middle managers that are now gone. I'm not sure what is going on now since COVID put some dampers on meetings. One of the current managers of the Texas Eagle did post that we need to make our voices heard to the folks in DC though.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

All this reminds me of when they took the Parlor Car off the CS... to the disappointment of the passengers! We wrote letters, signed petitions, and complained... only to find out they sold it to a private group... cutting costs.

We were angered at only having the SSC ... only to see those slowly starting to disappear.

As we 'enjoy' those flex puddle meals!

Gimme a break!


----------



## Sidney

The much maligned(and deservedly so) Richard Anderson rode on the PPC from Portland to Seattle and deemed them unnecessary. That's what I read. That's probably the only long distance train he ever rode.


----------



## Mailliw

saxman said:


> Basically this is new Amtrak management being run again from out east. They don't ride these trains, but they think they know what is best. Since many managers were retired or asked to leave in some cases, many with years of institutional knowledge, this is what we are dealing with again. TEMPO was able to convince Amtrak to keep the SSL on the TE back in the mid aughts or so. Hopefully they can do so again, but I'm not sure how much power TEMPO has now. They had a lot of connections with those prior stated middle managers that are now gone. I'm not sure what is going on now since COVID put some dampers on meetings. One of the current managers of the Texas Eagle did post that we need to make our voices heard to the folks in DC though.


Part of me hopes Amtrak Pete schedules overnight inspection tours with baffled Amtrak senior management on long distancetrains; maybe it's not realistic, but it's still a fun image.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> The much maligned(and deservedly so) Richard Anderson rode on the PPC from Portland to Seattle and deemed them unnecessary. That's what I read. That's probably the only long distance train he ever rode.


It seems that Anderson had no scruples when it comes to passenger service... the only thing he accomplished was cost cutting; nor did he understand that the rail system is a service to the tax payers... who pay for it!


----------



## Bob Dylan

saxman said:


> Basically this is new Amtrak management being run again from out east. They don't ride these trains, but they think they know what is best. Since many managers were retired or asked to leave in some cases, many with years of institutional knowledge, this is what we are dealing with again. TEMPO was able to convince Amtrak to keep the SSL on the TE back in the mid aughts or so. Hopefully they can do so again, but I'm not sure how much power TEMPO has now. They had a lot of connections with those prior stated middle managers that are now gone. I'm not sure what is going on now since COVID put some dampers on meetings. One of the current managers of the Texas Eagle did post that we need to make our voices heard to the folks in DC though.


Wouldnt hurt for everyone that loves the Eagle from the States the Eagle serves ( IL/MO/AR/TX)to let Amtrak Joe, Mayor Pete and their Senators and Reps know how we feel about this latest idiotic idea from the Executive Suite in Sodom on the Potomac!


----------



## mlanoue

So, I want to understand this correctly: the cafe for the TE is part of the "Cross Country Cafe" car, split with the diner. But, it sounds like passengers aren't allowed to sit in the cafe side, correct? And without a SSL there will be no place to sit except your coach seat. 

That's crazy. Even on the state trains (in Illinois at least) you can hang out at a table in the cafe to get a break from your coach seat. And those aren't 32 hour long rides.


----------



## Cal

mlanoue said:


> So, I want to understand this correctly: the cafe for the TE is part of the "Cross Country Cafe" car, split with the diner. But, it sounds like passengers aren't allowed to sit in the cafe side, correct? And without a SSL there will be no place to sit except your coach seat.
> 
> That's crazy. Even on the state trains (in Illinois at least) you can hang out at a table in the cafe to get a break from your coach seat. And those aren't 32 hour long rides.


You are correct. 

On Pacific Surfliner trains, including the ones with the 8 hour run times, you can't eat in the cafe. Must be at your seat.


----------



## mlanoue

Cal said:


> You are correct.
> 
> On Pacific Surfliner trains, including the ones with the 8 hour run times, you can't eat in the cafe. Must be at your seat.



Oh, okay. Is that a Covid restriction, or is that always the rule?


----------



## Sidney

mlanoue said:


> So, I want to understand this correctly: the cafe for the TE is part of the "Cross Country Cafe" car, split with the diner. But, it sounds like passengers aren't allowed to sit in the cafe side, correct? And without a SSL there will be no place to sit except your coach seat.
> 
> That's crazy. Even on the state trains (in Illinois at least) you can hang out at a table in the cafe to get a break from your coach seat. And those aren't 32 hour long rides.


If the SSL cars are gone for good,passengers should be able to hang out in the cross country cafe car,at least for a little while. As you said,the TE is a 30 hour trip. It's not a bus. I am amazed at some of Amtrak's moves. None are for the better


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Wouldnt hurt for everyone that loves the Eagle from the States the Eagle serves ( IL/MO/AR/TX)to let Amtrak Joe, Mayor Pete and their Senators and Reps know how we feel about this latest idiotic idea from the Executive Suite in Sodom on the Potomac!


Well said... but when it gets down to politics, regardless of the party... it seems that all their efforts go for the votes; perhaps if congress reps see enough signatures from their states and districts, they may do something... if they feel they actually can.


----------



## Cal

mlanoue said:


> Oh, okay. Is that a Covid restriction, or is that always the rule?


Nope. There are tables by the cafe you were able to sit at. Currently I believe conductors use it


----------



## Seaboard92

jis said:


> Specifically about SSLs I don't know. But in general, many have been sold. @Seaboard92 knows more about all that than I do. Even a bunch of Amfleet Is were acquired by a tourist operation.



Yes sir two have been sold to my friend Noah. I've been inside both of them. They are actually in really good condition compared to most of the stuff in the bone yard. Even though one has a tree growing inside the second floor.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

This is my reply to all the news.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Give it the summer if some improvements aren’t made after letters and a hissing fit from RPA . I say a “Fire Flynn/Gardner/the board” campaign is in order. Same billboards as before. Obviously no one was ever going to fire Anderson. The political climate is 100 percent different now, it would AT LEAST get Bidens and Buttigiegs attention.

I’m half joking but half of me isn’t. We will know soon enough if managements goals are sincere or not.


----------



## MaisieM

caravanman said:


> Emails often seem to generate a standard reply...
> 
> I contacted the Amtrak international department: [email protected]
> 
> They mostly dealt with overseas rail pass queries, but I found them helpful with obtaining a refund at one time. Maybe give them a shot first? Fingers crossed in any case!


Alas, I cannot get this email to work at all.


----------



## caravanman

MaisieM said:


> Alas, I cannot get this email to work at all.



Sorry to hear that.

It was an email for overseas customers who required help with railpass reservations, I found them a bit more savvy than the domestic folk. The railpass is suspended during Covid, so maybe that email is too.

Give a phone call, not too expensive these days from most mobile phones?


----------



## me_little_me

Amtrakfflyer said:


> We will know soon enough if managements goals are sincere or not.


Pffftttt! How many lies, misinformation, downgrades does it take?


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Trust me your preaching to the choir leader. I get it. LOL that line was only added for the benefit of those who refuse to see what’s in plain sight and cut off unnecessary confrontation



me_little_me said:


> Pffftttt! How many lies, misinformation, downgrades does it take?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Give it the summer if some improvements aren’t made after letters and a hissing fit from RPA . I say a “Fire Flynn/Gardner/the board” campaign is in order. Same billboards as before. Obviously no one was ever going to fire Anderson. The political climate is 100 percent different now, it would AT LEAST get Bidens and Buttigiegs attention.
> 
> I’m half joking but half of me isn’t. We will know soon enough if managements goals are sincere or not.


Let AU make the top leadership aware of concerns... and use the words 'deterioration of service' loud enough so that it gets the attention of Biden and Bettigieg... 

BTW... we need to proudly assume that AU has some kind of influence, after all, we probably well represent the strongest of the strong supporters for a vibrant and improving Amtrak. And that's what top leaders are promising!


----------



## frequentflyer

Seaboard92 said:


> Yes sir two have been sold to my friend Noah. I've been inside both of them. They are actually in really good condition compared to most of the stuff in the bone yard. Even though one has a tree growing inside the second floor.



Curios to what your friend Noah plans to do with two SSL, would make for an awesome private car (tint the windows more though).


----------



## jis

frequentflyer said:


> Curios to what your friend Noah plans to do with two SSL, would make for an awesome private car (tint the windows more though).


Specially with the one with the tree growing in it.


----------



## Oaxacajo

I'm new to this forum but am confused. I am taking the Texas Eagle this summer and the Amtrak site says that the train does have an observation car. Or does the observation car only get added in San Antonio?


----------



## jis

Oaxacajo said:


> I'm new to this forum but am confused. I am taking the Texas Eagle this summer and the Amtrak site says that the train does have an observation car. Or does the observation car only get added in San Antonio?


It has a Sightseer Lounge west of San Antonio. That car runs as a part of the Sunset Limited to which the through Los Angeles cars from the Texas Eagle are attached, and hence those passenger gain access to the Sightseer Lounge thence westwards.

The discussion here is about what happens between Chicago and San Antonio where the Texas Eagle is a self standing train separate from the Sunset.


----------



## Cal

Oaxacajo said:


> I'm new to this forum but am confused. I am taking the Texas Eagle this summer and the Amtrak site says that the train does have an observation car. Or does the observation car only get added in San Antonio?


Where are you taking it from?


----------



## Seaboard92

frequentflyer said:


> Curios to what your friend Noah plans to do with two SSL, would make for an awesome private car (tint the windows more though).


I don't really remember what he said. But I agree it would make a really cool private car.


----------



## Cal

Seaboard92 said:


> I don't really remember what he said. But I agree it would make a really cool private car.


Just attach it to the back of the Starlight as a private PPC for passengers to enjoy )


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Oaxacajo said:


> I'm new to this forum but am confused. I am taking the Texas Eagle this summer and the Amtrak site says that the train does have an observation car. Or does the observation car only get added in San Antonio?


I would say the best course of action is to call Amtrak and ask them if the Sightseer Lounge will be in service on your trip date. They may not give you correct information but we can be wrong as well and many of our insider sources have gone quiet during the pandemic. Best of luck with the lounge but North of San Antonio does not look promising.


----------



## Sidney

From what I have read,the SSL is not returning to the Texas Eagle between Chicago and San Antonio. Another idiotic move


----------



## PaTrainFan

I emailed Amtrak support over a week ago to specifically complain about the Sightseer Loungs being removed on the Texas Eagle and Capitol Limited. I have not yet recieved a response. Typically I get something, even if it's b.s., though it may take a while.


----------



## caravanman

Oaxacajo said:


> I'm new to this forum but am confused. I am taking the Texas Eagle this summer and the Amtrak site says that the train does have an observation car. Or does the observation car only get added in San Antonio?



The removal of the sightseeing car between Chicago and San Antonio is a new thing, so the main Amtrak website might not be updated yet? 

(A sightseeer lounge will be available from San Antonio to Los Angeles, as Jis above explained.)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Why all the anger??? Because for the first 1305 miles on the TE route there will be no sightseer lounge... and literally no place to go other than your room or coach seat. This means...

Limited view as the TE makes that dramatic turn across the Mississippi with the stunning St. Louis Arch among other missed scenery. It means that most passengers will literally feel a sense of confinement for the first half day out of Chicago, and the entire second day of the trip which reaches San Antonio at around 10pm.

Screaming evidence at the incompetancy of Amtrak management. Below is the schedule of the Texas Eagle with literally no passenger amenities... except for the ability to get up, go the the bathroom, and go to the cafe for take out only... take back to your room or seat...


----------



## Sidney

Question: Is there a shortage of SSL cars? Up until the pandemic,the TE had a SSL car and I've been taken that train many times and that car has always been there.

Why is it not being returned? Is there any logical reason? The sightseer car is an integral part of a LD train. Another reason the idiots in charge of Amtrak should be removed.


----------



## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> Question: Is there a shortage of SSL cars? Up until the pandemic,the TE had a SSL car and I've been taken that train many times and that car has always been there.
> 
> Why is it not being returned? Is there any logical reason? The sightseer car is an integral part of a LD train. Another reason the idiots in charge of Amtrak should be removed.


It's Amtrak long distance management. Neither intelligence, nor logic are present. The driving philosophy is cost-cutting uber alles, with zero thought to growing, or even retaining, the business (short of acting so egregiously that they get Congress po'd). If they think they can save a bit by not hauling the car, they will. If ridership drops, so be it. They saved money. It is the only KPI upper management seems to look at. Ridership on a long distance train? Does not seem to matter to anyone in Amtrak management. They may even want it to improve the business case for dropping service, like Espee famously did.

There is NO real support for long distance service in Amtrak Executive management or on the Board. There may be lip service, Anderson's outright hostility and idiotic proposals (bustituting the Chief) caught Congress' attention in a bad way. So they talk nicer now. Little else appears changed since Anderson's blessed departure.

Fire the Board.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Does anyone at AU know exactly who scrubbed the SSL from the almost 2 days itinerary of the TE and what the exact reason was??? It boarders on inappropriate treatement of passengers who must be confined to their seats for 30 + hours between Chicago and Austin! 

They can't 'linger' in the cafe lounge because it's used by the crew... who apparently have nowhere else to plant themselves. If you want to get up and stretch... or go to a place where you can better view the scenery from both sides... there is no longer the sightseer lounge car... which has become a necessity for long distance trips. 

So... has anyone been able to find out the 'backstory' to this setback?

Oh how I remember the outrage at the flex puddle meals... but despite all the objections... Amtrak just does what it wants... and years late the deterioration and downgrades continue!


----------



## zephyr17

The Texas Eagle is the single Amtrak long distance train in the current network that I have not ridden.

It just dropped off the "to do" list.


----------



## Cal

Thankfully, I did get on it when it still had an SSL, back in 2018. 

Last western LD train I need is the Zephyr, which thankfully is keeping it's SSL. After that, onto the Eastern trains


----------



## 20th Century Rider

FYI - here are two things that no longer exist on Amtrak's longest distance passenger train... enough to make anyone disappointed! Nope... you will no longer get that view of the St Louis Arch from the SSC because it's gone; nor will you any longer enjoy a double decker cheese sandwich at lunch as you casually make new friends in the dining car, because that's gone too.  ‼
Watch: Dining on a train


----------



## Sidney

I read these posts about the loss of the Texas Eagle SSL car,the temporary continuation of flex dining and the outrageous sleeper prices on this and other forums and it gets me steamed.

Yet,I have a trip coming up next week in a roomette between Chicago and LA on the Eagle and I'm as excited as ever. I specifically booked the May 21 date months ago so I could be one of the first to experience traditional dining again...well...
plus I saved $280 by booking when I did..$13 coach Chi-Bloomington and $448 roomette to LA. Amtrak's last great bargain and that's gone as well


Can anybody logically explain why the Sightseer Car is not returning to the TE? Obviously,there is no explanation. They have always had one prior to the pandemic. Sucks,doesn't it?


----------



## zephyr17

The only logical explanation is idiocy.

And, yeah, it sucks.


----------



## me_little_me

zephyr17 said:


> The only logical explanation is idiocy.
> 
> And, yeah, it sucks.


Or Duplicity.


----------



## Sidney

Amtrak has to be the only long distance carrier in the country actually discouraging travel. What a way to run a railroad! Ill ask once again..if any Amtrak or former Amtrak employee reads this forum,please give us an explanation on why the Sightseer car was removed from the Texas Eagle...oh..and if it is one person responsible for the most idiotic move since flex dining..please have him fired. Thank you.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> I read these posts about the loss of the Texas Eagle SSL car,the temporary continuation of flex dining and the outrageous sleeper prices on this and other forums and it gets me steamed.
> 
> Yet,I have a trip coming up next week in a roomette between Chicago and LA on the Eagle and I'm as excited as ever. I specifically booked the May 21 date months ago so I could be one of the first to experience traditional dining again...well...
> plus I saved $280 by booking when I did..$13 coach Chi-Bloomington and $448 roomette to LA. Amtrak's last great bargain and that's gone as well
> 
> 
> Can anybody logically explain why the Sightseer Car is not returning to the TE? Obviously,there is no explanation. They have always had one prior to the pandemic. Sucks,doesn't it?


Do try to have a good time and realize the LD's may not last too much longer. You can pop off at stretch stops; and enjoy the great transitions of the scenery. If you do want to catch those river crossings, you can still go the entrance doors on the lower level and watch from there. Yes... indeed, you got a comparative bargain at $448. You can also bring along lots of nibbles and a little alcohol if you are so inclined... it's allowed to be consumed in your roomette. Have a party and enjoy!

I will be on the TE next October in an H room... LAX to Springfield ILL... only got a mid bucket price... $669 but with a facility in the room so I'm not complaining. I'm just gonna go and have the best time that I can. That's all any of us can do; realizing that in life there is always better and there is always worse. 

The real winners are the adaptable ones of us who make the best of things.

Glad you're excited... and you should be cause you will have a great trip!


----------



## Oaxacajo

Cal said:


> Where are you taking it from?


Chicago to LA


----------



## Cal

Oaxacajo said:


> Chicago to LA


Alright, so on the first and second days you won't have an SSL. On the second to last day while you go through the desert you will have one.


----------



## jiml

Has anyone thought this has nothing to do with a shortage of Sightseer Lounges and more about "making do" with one food service car on the Eagle?


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> Has anyone thought this has nothing to do with a shortage of Sightseer Lounges and more about "making do" with one food service car on the Eagle?


Wasn't that what the first half of the thread was about?


----------



## jiml

Cal said:


> Wasn't that what the first half of the thread was about?


I saw one post alluding to that, but the consensus seems to favor the former.


----------



## zephyr17

jiml said:


> Has anyone thought this has nothing to do with a shortage of Sightseer Lounges and more about "making do" with one food service car on the Eagle?


Well, I can go through the math, but off the top of my head I would say they had enough Sightseers to provide them on the Cap, CONO, and Eagle under full schedules prior to COVID and I don't think they've put any in the ditch since.

So no.


----------



## railiner

jiml said:


> Has anyone thought this has nothing to do with a shortage of Sightseer Lounges and more about "making do" with one food service car on the Eagle?


Could be...but even if that's the case, why not just run them unstaffed, and close the lower level, so that passenger's can still enjoy the lounge?


----------



## zephyr17

railiner said:


> Could be...but even if that's the case, why not just run them unstaffed, and close the lower level, so that passenger's can still enjoy the lounge?


That is what they were doing like 3 years ago on the Capitol when I rode it. Cafe service was provided at the counter on the Lounge end of the Diner/Lounge, and the downstairs of the Sightseer was not staffed and was closed. But it was there providing lounge and table seating. The Lounge end of the Diner/Lounge and the table end of the Sightseer were coupled together.

It worked fine.


----------



## railiner

zephyr17 said:


> That is what they were doing like 3 years ago on the Capitol when I rode it. Cafe service was provided at the counter on the Lounge end of the Diner/Lounge, and the downstairs of the Sightseer was not staffed and was closed. But it was there providing lounge and table seating. The Lounge end of the Diner/Lounge and the table end of the Sightseer were coupled together.
> 
> It worked fine.


That's what they should do, then. And the crew could use the tables downstairs, as their 'office', and free up the ones they block in the diner/lounge....


----------



## John Santos

20th Century Rider said:


> I mean't to say 50th Anniversary Bash. Guess I made that mistake because I am so overcome with Amtrak's deterioration!


Nah, it is the 5th Anniversary Bash. It's just 45 years behind schedule.


----------



## JoeBas

zephyr17 said:


> It's Amtrak long distance management. Neither intelligence, nor logic are present. The driving philosophy is cost-cutting uber alles, with zero thought to growing, or even retaining, the business (short of acting so egregiously that they get Congress po'd). If they think they can save a bit by not hauling the car, they will. If ridership drops, so be it. They saved money. It is the only KPI upper management seems to look at.



When did I start working for Amtrak???


----------



## JoeBas

20th Century Rider said:


> Oh how I remember the outrage at the flex puddle meals... but despite all the objections... Amtrak just does what it wants... and years late the deterioration and downgrades continue!



I just wish people would stop *overreacting *to the flowers on the dining tables going away...


----------



## me_little_me

JoeBas said:


> I just wish people would stop *overreacting *to the flowers on the dining tables going away...


Especially since they couldn't keep the artificial ones alive - no matter how much they watered them.


----------



## boratwanksta

I know thanks to watching Virtual Railfan cameras, that Sightseer Lounges hadn't ran on Capitol Limited(Elkhart camera) and Texas Eagle(Big Sandy, TX camera) as of late. Are those the only long distance trains at the moment with Superliner cars, where the Sightseer Lounge is temporarily not running on? And whenever I've caught the Auto Train running through the Virtual Railfan cameras in either Folkston, GA or Ashland, VA, I hadn't seen that train run with a Sightseer Lounge either.

Someone else supposedly said the City of New Orleans briefly didn't run with a Sightseer Lounge, but that at least with one recent April 2021 train run and a posted pic, that it was running with a Sightseer car once again. I honestly wish all such trains would run with a Sightseer Lounge, and also traditional dining service once again. You'd think the cost cutting crap would've stopped with Anderson no longer being CEO, but sadly it seems like that hasn't totally stopped.....


----------



## Sidney

There is absolutely no reason the Sightseer car cannot be on the Texas Eagle. A slap in the face to passengers.


----------



## Mailliw

I'm shocked that the loung would be taken of the Auto-Train; presumably it would be _the last_ train to lose any kind of amenities.


----------



## PVD

I'm pretty sure the Autotrain has lounges made out of converted diners, and usually doesn't use SSL, so you would not see them. It's not the most scenic route anyway, being mostly overnight.


----------



## Cal

PVD said:


> I'm pretty sure the Autotrain has lounges made out of converted diners, and usually doesn't use SSL, so you would not see them. It's not the most scenic route anyway, being mostly overnight.


I agree. If any train were to lose it's SSL, I think the Auto Train is the best one.


----------



## PVD

I don't actually think it has one. I think it has lounges made up of converted diners, which is why someone watching a railcam would not see the telltale window line of an SSL.


----------



## jiml

If we're talking video, SSL's have shown up recently in some unexpected places, including Surfliners on San Juan Capistrano railcam and southern Illinois services on YouTube.


----------



## lordsigma

Auto train uses converted diners for lounges. There was one converted SSL in the auto train lounge fleet - not sure if it still is. (It had all tables unlike the typical SSL.) on a trip a couple years ago I had the converted diner on the way down and the former SSL on the way home.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jiml said:


> If we're talking video, SSL's have shown up recently in some unexpected places, including Surfliners on San Juan Capistrano railcam and southern Illinois services on YouTube.


I think the Illini and Saluki have have been using SSLs as axle count cars.


----------



## Cal

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> I think the Illini and Saluki have have been using SSLs as axle count cars.


Because there's no other available cars in Chicago, sounds about right


----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> If we're talking video, SSL's have shown up recently in some unexpected places, including Surfliners on San Juan Capistrano railcam and southern Illinois services on YouTube.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Cal said:


> Because there's no other available cars in Chicago, sounds about right


Yep, all the Baggsge Cars, parked Coaches and Sleepers are being used, the yards are empty!

Sarcasm turned off!


----------



## PaTrainFan

Here is the response I got from Amtrak for my compaint about removing the Sightseer Lounges. I don't like the tone of this.

We appreciate your taking the time to send us your comments regarding the retirement of the Sightseeing Lounge car. 
We know that many of our customers have enjoyed this popular car over the years but the decision to retire it is part of Amtrak’s plan to modernize our fleet of equipment. We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward. 
As we hope you will understand, these determinations were not made lightly, and are being implemented wholly with the purpose of ensuring the financial excellence Amtrak requires to deliver intercity transportation into the future with superior safety, customer service, and efficiency.
Again, thank you for your e-mail. We look forward to seeing you on board again soon.


----------



## jis

We will go back to hand cranked trolleys if necessary or even discontinue service altogether, to get superior safety, customer service, and efficiency and financial excellence - Amtrak Management


----------



## Josh M

PaTrainFan said:


> Here is the response I got from Amtrak for my compaint about removing the Sightseer Lounges. I don't like the tone of this.
> 
> We appreciate your taking the time to send us your comments regarding the retirement of the Sightseeing Lounge car.
> We know that many of our customers have enjoyed this popular car over the years but the decision to retire it is part of Amtrak’s plan to modernize our fleet of equipment. We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward.
> As we hope you will understand, these determinations were not made lightly, and are being implemented wholly with the purpose of ensuring the financial excellence Amtrak requires to deliver intercity transportation into the future with superior safety, customer service, and efficiency.
> Again, thank you for your e-mail. We look forward to seeing you on board again soon.



Well, that's a whole lot of corporate-speak in just two paragraphs. They should really just do the short translation: "We don't care what you think, so **** off." At least that's more honest.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Amtrak’s response is more onerous than I would have thought. “Retirement” reminds me of the PPC verbiage. Only 30 years sooner. What the hey is going on...

Things are not looking good.


----------



## PaTrainFan

RPA (what was wrong with NARP, anyway?) needs to get involved. Sometimes I am not sure what they do, even though I read their weekly missive.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> Here is the response I got from Amtrak for my compaint about removing the Sightseer Lounges. I don't like the tone of this.
> 
> We appreciate your taking the time to send us your comments regarding the retirement of the Sightseeing Lounge car.
> We know that many of our customers have enjoyed this popular car over the years but the decision to retire it is part of Amtrak’s plan to modernize our fleet of equipment. We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward.
> As we hope you will understand, these determinations were not made lightly, and are being implemented wholly with the purpose of ensuring the financial excellence Amtrak requires to deliver intercity transportation into the future with superior safety, customer service, and efficiency.
> Again, thank you for your e-mail. We look forward to seeing you on board again soon.


According to this Amtrak rep, the 'modernized' experience refers to the removal of an extra comfort amenities so that Amtrak can be in line with its future goal... bare bones and basic. That is what Amtrak calls 'modernization' and 'financial excellence.'

C'mon... gag me with spoon of flex food!


----------



## railiner

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Amtrak’s response is more onerous than I would have thought. “Retirement” reminds me of the PPC verbiage. Only 30 years sooner. What the hey is going on...
> 
> Things are not looking good.


Yes...it seems that this answers the question, as to 'when' the SSL's will return, post-pandemic...never.
Very discouraging, I agree.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Maybe Amtrak has some ideas about more cost effective viewing cars as well as 'enhanced' coach service>


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> Auto train uses converted diners for lounges. There was one converted SSL in the auto train lounge fleet - not sure if it still is. (It had all tables unlike the typical SSL.) on a trip a couple years ago I had the converted diner on the way down and the former SSL on the way home.


That was the one test conversion of an SSL for use as CCC. I am wandering whatever happened to it since then.


----------



## daybeers

PaTrainFan said:


> RPA (what was wrong with NARP, anyway?) needs to get involved. Sometimes I am not sure what they do, even though I read their weekly missive.


Part of the reason I never gave them money.


PaTrainFan said:


> Here is the response I got from Amtrak for my compaint about removing the Sightseer Lounges. I don't like the tone of this.
> 
> We appreciate your taking the time to send us your comments regarding the retirement of the Sightseeing Lounge car.
> We know that many of our customers have enjoyed this popular car over the years but the decision to retire it is part of Amtrak’s plan to modernize our fleet of equipment. We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward.
> As we hope you will understand, these determinations were not made lightly, and are being implemented wholly with the purpose of ensuring the financial excellence Amtrak requires to deliver intercity transportation into the future with superior safety, customer service, and efficiency.
> Again, thank you for your e-mail. We look forward to seeing you on board again soon.


This is disgusting.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

I've never been a fan of Amtrak Vacations... a private subsidiary... but it seems the rug has been pulled out from them as well... as they embellish the joy of train travel and promote the advantages of the SSL's. So, what's next??? Does any one care... and is anyone minding the store???


----------



## PaTrainFan

I do not know if they read responses or respond to them, but I responded with this: Why would I want to travel Amtrak going forward if you continually water down the experience (dining) and amenities (lounges)?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> I do not know if they read responses or respond to them, but I responded with this: Why would I want to travel Amtrak going forward if you continually water down the experience (dining) and amenities (lounges)?


You're not alone in your thinking. This massive pullback of service and quality for this 50th Amtrak Anniversary certainly paints a very bleak picture. If Amtrak Joe and Buttegieg are indifferent, then America will continue to rapidly fall behind the rest of the world when it comes to passenger rail.

Below...Even Egypt is developing rapid HS rail!


----------



## jis

Mica used to complain about Amtrak being like Soviet Railroads. Oh how I wish Amtrak was like RZD now! Of course Mica knew nothing about what he was talking about. He was a good "Florida Man" afterall!  Hey! I can say that. I live in Florida in the deep Red part of it.


----------



## Bob Dylan

PaTrainFan said:


> Here is the response I got from Amtrak for my compaint about removing the Sightseer Lounges. I don't like the tone of this.
> 
> We appreciate your taking the time to send us your comments regarding the retirement of the Sightseeing Lounge car.
> We know that many of our customers have enjoyed this popular car over the years but the decision to retire it is part of Amtrak’s plan to modernize our fleet of equipment. We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward.
> As we hope you will understand, these determinations were not made lightly, and are being implemented wholly with the purpose of ensuring the financial excellence Amtrak requires to deliver intercity transportation into the future with superior safety, customer service, and efficiency.
> Again, thank you for your e-mail. We look forward to seeing you on board again soon.


Typical Amtrak BS! How does taking the SSL off of the Eagles " Enhance" Passengers enjoyment of 30+ Hour Train trips?

Oh, that's right, just like "Fesh and Contemporary" and Flex Dining Menus " Ehanced" the Diner expierience!

Write the White House, Mayor Pete @ DOT, Amtrak and your Senators and Reps today!

This must not be allowed to Stand!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

This rep guy uses 'modernize' as a way to 'minimize costs and maximize revenue.'


Bob Dylan said:


> Typical Amtrak BS! How does taking the SSL off of the Eagles " Enhance" Passengers enjoyment of 30+ Hour Train trips?
> 
> Oh, that's right, just like "Fesh and Contemporary" and Flex Dining Menus " Ehanced" the Diner expierience!
> 
> Write the White House, Mayor Pete @ DOT, Amtrak and your Senators and Reps today!
> 
> This must not be allowed to Stand!


We're all angry about Amtrak's deceptive practices, twisted statements, and indifference towards the passengers. We've all been loyal to Amtrak and have been shortchanged... as they say, 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you.' 

Moynihan hall may be a monument to the past 50 years... but going forward with Amtrak's demise, it seems to be a fitting tombstone.


----------



## jiml

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Amtrak’s response is more onerous than I would have thought. “Retirement” reminds me of the PPC verbiage. Only 30 years sooner. What the hey is going on...
> 
> Things are not looking good.


That's the word I find most concerning, repeated in the phrase "decision to retire". That sounds more like the thin edge of the wedge rather than a "one-of" situation. If they said there was a shortage on other routes and equipment had to be redeployed, then say that. People will not be any happier but will at least understand the thought process. Hopefully this is not a sign that the Sightseers will follow the PPC route of "if it doesn't make money...".


----------



## Palmetto

It's not too far-fetched to think that some Amtrak lackey who's responsible for addressing complaints, simply got hold of a "stock" letter to address this situation, when--in fact--the letter that was recently sent pertained to the PPC discontinuance. Is it? After all, it's been amply demonstrated that people in the Amtrak office who deal with the public have no clue as to what's going on "in the field".


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Of all the issues Amtrak has today including poor lackluster moral, failed corridor initiatives, endless $$ NEC deferred maintenance, etc. What do they do?
They pick the one product line that shows the most promise post covid and debatably before to tear apart. The long distance network, all things considered is the only solid performer Amtrak has had year in and year out. It costs peanuts to run even though management claims otherwise. 

In the big picture of Amtrak how much money will Amtrak save by “retiring” the lounges? I think we can safely assume traditional dining will not be coming back to the Eagle and possibly other western trains as well now. This will end up costing the company money and ridership, no savings will be seen. Again it’s time to call a spade a spade and demand new management while there’s still time. As far as RPA I think that’s becoming apparent as well.


----------



## jis

Who exactly are you going to demand this grand scheme of? The fox guarding the hen house?


----------



## me_little_me

Didn't I say that they lie? 
Amtrak Dining

How do you know when an Amtrak executive is lying? His lips move.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> Here is the response I got from Amtrak for my compaint about removing the Sightseer Lounges. I don't like the tone of this.
> 
> We appreciate your taking the time to send us your comments regarding the retirement of the Sightseeing Lounge car.
> We know that many of our customers have enjoyed this popular car over the years but the decision to retire it is part of Amtrak’s plan to modernize our fleet of equipment. We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward.
> As we hope you will understand, these determinations were not made lightly, and are being implemented wholly with the purpose of ensuring the financial excellence Amtrak requires to deliver intercity transportation into the future with superior safety, customer service, and efficiency.
> Again, thank you for your e-mail. We look forward to seeing you on board again soon.



As a loyal patron of Amtrak, I take offense at this 'slick' reply. 

This is why I'm offended:

1] He's not assuming we are experienced Amtrak riders for the last 50 years.
2] He doesn't realize we have intelligence and the ability to read between the lines.
3] He doesn't explain why and how removing the SSC now... will help modernize the fleet.
4] When he states "We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward." he is not indicating that the revised services are for the welfare and comfort of the Amtrak passenger.
5] He is careful to leave out the 'why' when he says 'these determinations were not made lightly.'
6] What does he mean when he refers to 'financial excellence' and the connection with removing the SSC?
7] Is he implying the SSC is not safe when he mentions 'with superior safety?'
8] Is he implying the SSC has deterred customer service and efficiency?

Bottom line is that the meaningless gibberish in the reply supposedly meant to pacify... has infuriated many of us!


----------



## Sidney

So,does this mean every SSL car will be retired? Total crap from Amtrak. Only decent thing Amtrak did for their 50th was to have $50 Coach fares,and at the same time raising sleeper prices putting many of them out of reach of ordinary Americans

Taking the SSL car off the TE and CL was a move because of the pandemic. Now it is being retired? 

All these petty moves by Amtrak. I thought Anderson was the bottom of the barrel. I stand corrected.


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> This rep guy uses 'modernize' as a way to 'minimize costs and maximize revenue.'
> 
> We're all angry about Amtrak's deceptive practices, twisted statements, and indifference towards the passengers. We've all been loyal to Amtrak and have been shortchanged... as they say, 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you.'
> 
> Moynihan hall may be a monument to the past 50 years... but going forward with Amtrak's demise, it seems to be a fitting tombstone.
> 
> View attachment 22417


Moynihan Hall is the only positive mood Amtrak has made in years. The food and drink available there is better than anything on the flex menu. Too bad that kind of excellence can't be transferred to the actual train ride.


----------



## Sidney

Sidney said:


> Moynihan Hall is the only positive mood Amtrak has made in years. The food and drink available there is better than anything on the flex menu. Too bad that kind of excellence can't be transferred to the actual train ride.


positive move


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> positive move


But as mentioned earlier... Moynihan Hall is a recognition of Amtrak's best of the past... yet like a tombstone of what's yet to come.


----------



## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> Moynihan Hall is the only positive mood Amtrak has made in years. The food and drink available there is better than anything on the flex menu. Too bad that kind of excellence can't be transferred to the actual train ride.


Of course, Moynihan Train Hall is at the heart of the NEC. That there is no shortage of love of the NEC by Amtrak management is not news.

While I applaud Moynihan Train Hall, and the quality of it's new Metropolitan Lounge, I do not regard it as a positive move for the system as a whole. It is at most a nothing move, at worst another symptom of the Nothing Else Counts syndrome.

If they brought that level of service to Chicago's fine Metropolitan Lounge as well, that is something I would regard as a positive move.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> If they brought that level of service to Chicago's fine Metropolitan Lounge as well, that is something I would regard as a positive move.



Is Moynihans Lounge very different from Chicago’s lounge when it opened?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> Of course, Moynihan Train Hall is at the heart of the NEC. That there is no shortage of love of the NEC by Amtrak management is not news.
> 
> While I applaud Moynihan Train Hall, and the quality of it's new Metropolitan Lounge, I do not regard it as a positive move for the system as a whole. It is at most a nothing move, at worst another symptom of the Nothing Else Counts syndrome.
> 
> If they brought that level of service to Chicago's fine Metropolitan Lounge as well, that is something I would regard as a positive move.


Moynihan Hall is brilliant and grand... but reflective of a disjointed and disorganized Amtrak. In no way is it reflective of the entire Amtrak system. One wonders why there isn't a cohesive standard for all metropolitan lounges!

Has anyone seen the deteriorating condition of the Met Lounge in WAS? 

Speaks mountains about the fragmentation and disconnect with Amtrak management not having a grasp or a clue of uniformity and consistency... that the patrons who pay big bucks have a right to expect!


----------



## zephyr17

20th Century Rider said:


> One wonders why there isn't a cohesive standard for all metropolitan lounges!
> 
> Has anyone seen the deteriorating condition of the Met Lounge in WAS?
> 
> Speaks mountains about the fragmentation and disconnect with Amtrak management not having a grasp or a clue of uniformity and consistency... that the patrons who pay big bucks have a right to expect!


Unfortunately, inconsistency of customer service and experience has been Amtrak's most defining feature for decades. That predates the current clueless management team and seems like an ingrained part of Amtrak's corporate culture.

If a truly competent management team were ever installed at Amtrak, pursuing clear goals of a truly national passenger system (their actual mandate), one of the first priorities would be to mount a sustained program to improve customer service delivery and consistency. It is not a quick turnaround given that slapdash management of customer service is a longstanding feature of Amtrak's corporate culture.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

zephyr17 said:


> Unfortunately, inconsistency of customer service and experience has been Amtrak's most defining feature for decades. That predates the current clueless management team and seems like an ingrained part of Amtrak's corporate culture.
> 
> If a truly competent management team were ever installed at Amtrak, pursuing clear goals of a truly national passenger system (their actual mandate), one of the first priorities would be to mount a sustained program to improve customer service delivery and consistency. It is not a quick turnaround given that slapdash management of customer service is a longstanding feature of Amtrak's corporate culture.


Dangling a carrot in front of the eyes of those who are Amtrak's biggest supporters... then with a tease... just pulling it away... the epitome of disrespect. 

But then again... management bureaucrats couldn't care less. They go to work each day... put in their time, 'bla bla bla' then go home to their dinners of steak and potatoes... salary is pd by the US government... our taxes in action.

This is the demise and the unfolding failure of Amtrak.


----------



## PaTrainFan

zephyr17 said:


> Of course, Moynihan Train Hall is at the heart of the NEC. That there is no shortage of love of the NEC by Amtrak management is not news.
> 
> While I applaud Moynihan Train Hall, and the quality of it's new Metropolitan Lounge, I do not regard it as a positive move for the system as a whole. It is at most a nothing move, at worst another symptom of the Nothing Else Counts syndrome.
> 
> If they brought that level of service to Chicago's fine Metropolitan Lounge as well, that is something I would regard as a positive move.



Bear in mind, too, that this was primarily a State of New York project. It is only because of the state that it happened at all, let alone became grandiose.


----------



## zephyr17

PaTrainFan said:


> Bear in mind, too, that this was primarily a State of New York project. It is only because of the state that it happened at all, let alone became grandiose.


True, and I realize I wasn't as clear as I would have liked. I really meant my comments to apply primarily to the Metropolitan Lounge there, which really is more of an Amtrak thing than Moynihan itself.

The construction of Moynihan primarily by the state of New York is not a lot different than the restoration of King Street Station in Seattle primarily by the City of Seattle. Amtrak was responsible for neither and is the beneficiary of local government actions.

But _Amtrak _decided not to put a Metropolitan Lounge in one of them, despite robust state-supported corridor services (pre-COVID) and two long distance trains.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Realizing what's happening...

When Amtrak replaced restaurant quality meals with synthetic food... 'flex meals' are synthetic and bad for you... no taste, no texture, and hated by many... please do argue here if you disagree... that grabbed the attention of rail loving travelers.

And while no one was looking... they pulled the rug out with the elimination of other passenger amenities and comforts... mainly the sneaky withdrawal of the SSL's which all just kind-a took for granted... and provided a movement to another location with a chance to stretch and mingle with others ... being taken away.

Amtrak management is hiding with heads buried underneath pillows... going to their jobs, syncing with their managers, then going home to their steak dinners... paid for with our taxes.

Amtrak is invited to respond to our concern of the disassembling of passenger service... making the use of such into an expensive and uncomfortable ordeal... which many of us will just walk away from.

My prediction is that Amtrak won't bother to respond... because the patrons of Amtrak are no more important that those millions who purchase stamps to mail letters. We are just living under the rules and conditions of the government.


----------



## PaTrainFan

zephyr17 said:


> True, and I realize I wasn't as clear as I would have liked. I really meant my comments to apply primarily to the Metropolitan Lounge there, which really is more of an Amtrak thing than Moynihan itself.
> 
> The construction of Moynihan primarily by the state of New York is not a lot different than the restoration of King Street Station in Seattle primarily by the City of Seattle. Amtrak was responsible for neither and is the beneficiary of local government actions.
> 
> But _Amtrak _decided not to put a Metropolitan Lounge in one of them, despite robust state-supported corridor services (pre-COVID) and two long distance trains.



True that. And it is telling that Chicago's Metropolitan Lounge, while a fine facility, trails Moynihan in experience in part because it sits at the terminal point of most of Amtrak's network of long haul trains, which it wants to dismantle.


----------



## Sidney

It seems possible Amtrak may pull the Sightseer cars off other trains. I put nothing past them. Can you imagine no SSL on the Zephyr and the Starlight,?

Regarding Metropolitan lounges why isn't one in Seattle,? A departure city for the CS and EB. Portland has one,why not Seattle? 

I ll be in Chicago Thursday at the Metropolitan Lounge. If they aren't serving food and drinks,it's not Covid anymore. It's sheer laziness and that nobody cares.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> It seems possible Amtrak may pull the Sightseer cars off other trains. I put nothing past them. Can you imagine no SSL on the Zephyr and the Starlight,?
> 
> Regarding Metropolitan lounges why isn't one in Seattle,? A departure city for the CS and EB. Portland has one,why not Seattle?
> 
> I ll be in Chicago Thursday at the Metropolitan Lounge. If they aren't serving food and drinks,it's not Covid anymore. It's sheer laziness and that nobody cares.


No... not exactly laziness... it's total disregard for the concept of 'passenger service' which is part of Amtrak's plan to do away with itself.

To sum it up... Amtrak's deterioration is due to lack of interest in passengers, service, and rail transit concept... along with this is a management team which is absolutely and totally 'derailed.'


----------



## zephyr17

Sidney said:


> Regarding Metropolitan lounges why isn't one in Seattle,? A departure city for the CS and EB. Portland has one,why not Seattle?


There is room for one in King Street. Unfortunately neither Amtrak, nor the City of Seattle (the Station's owner), nor Washington DOT (responsible for Cascades service) demonstrate any interest.

Amtrak should be the primary mover on it, but none of the other parties care, either.


----------



## TrackWalker

Sidney said:


> ....I ll be in Chicago Thursday at the Metropolitan Lounge. If they aren't serving food and drinks,it's not Covid anymore. It's sheer laziness and that nobody cares.



Talk to those at the entrance and ask questions.

Why are there no snacks? When will they return? Who’s decision is it? Who is the supervisor/ manager in charge? What is his contact phone number/email? Etc., etc., etc. No doubt they at least know who their boss is.

And report back to us.


----------



## Bob Dylan

TrackWalker said:


> Talk to those at the entrance and ask questions.
> 
> Why are there no snacks? When will they return? Who’s decision is it? Who is the supervisor/ manager in charge? What is his contact phone number/email? Etc., etc., etc. No doubt they at least know who their boss is.
> 
> And report back to us.


Lots of luck on getting the Chicago gate dragons to answer questions, let alone care!


----------



## Willbridge

Sidney said:


> It seems possible Amtrak may pull the Sightseer cars off other trains. I put nothing past them. Can you imagine no SSL on the Zephyr and the Starlight,?
> 
> Regarding Metropolitan lounges why isn't one in Seattle,? A departure city for the CS and EB. Portland has one,why not Seattle?
> 
> I ll be in Chicago Thursday at the Metropolitan Lounge. If they aren't serving food and drinks,it's not Covid anymore. It's sheer laziness and that nobody cares.


Portland has one because the local employees got together and set it up. For its early years Amtrak would not list it as existing. Its main function originally was to cover the connections between the _Empire Builder _and the _Coast Starlight.
_
Both the Seattle and Portland stations are locally-owned. Although Seattle doesn't have the situation of long-distance trains connecting with each other I'm sure if the City of Seattle was paying attention they could have the same amenities as Portland.


----------



## joelkfla

20th Century Rider said:


> As a loyal patron of Amtrak, I take offense at this 'slick' reply.
> 
> This is why I'm offended:
> 
> 1] He's not assuming we are experienced Amtrak riders for the last 50 years.
> 2] He doesn't realize we have intelligence and the ability to read between the lines.
> 3] He doesn't explain why and how removing the SSC now... will help modernize the fleet.
> 4] When he states "We are examining the various amenities in an effort to determine how best to offer these services moving forward." he is not indicating that the revised services are for the welfare and comfort of the Amtrak passenger.
> 5] He is careful to leave out the 'why' when he says 'these determinations were not made lightly.'
> 6] What does he mean when he refers to 'financial excellence' and the connection with removing the SSC?
> 7] Is he implying the SSC is not safe when he mentions 'with superior safety?'
> 8] Is he implying the SSC has deterred customer service and efficiency?
> 
> Bottom line is that the meaningless gibberish in the reply supposedly meant to pacify... has infuriated many of us!


The telling terms are "efficiency" and "financial excellence". Everything else is blather.


----------



## John Santos

joelkfla said:


> The telling terms are "efficiency" and "financial excellence". Everything else is blather.


They both mean "cost cutting". They either don't understand that reducing the quality of service will inevitably reduce revenue, or they don't care.

Possibly some MBA moron created a spreadsheet, based on nothing but numbers created from whole cloth, that showed that reducing costs by substituting plastic for food and saving a few gallons of diesel fuel by removing baggage and lounge cars, and raising prices would increase profits. It never occurred to them that demand might be elastic. That's the generous interpretation. The cynical interpretation is they know exactly what will happen and are intentionally trying to destroy long distance passenger service.


----------



## zephyr17

Willbridge said:


> Portland has one because the local employees got together and set it up. For its early years Amtrak would not list it as existing. Its main function originally was to cover the connections between the _Empire Builder _and the _Coast Starlight._
> 
> Both the Seattle and Portland stations are locally-owned. Although Seattle doesn't have the situation of long-distance trains connecting with each other I'm sure if the City of Seattle was paying attention they could have the same amenities as Portland.


The City of Seattle doesn't give a damn. If anything, since Cascades Business Class and sleeper passengers are "privileged" the Seattle City Council would be actively against it if it came up on their radar.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

The sightseer lounge is the heart of a long distance train! Below you see Jeb Brooks... well known travel blogger... used the sightseer lounge on the California Zephyr as the center point of scenery to be enjoyed. To remove the SSL cars from any long distance Amtrak train is an unforgivable affront on Amtrak Passengers... who are taking the train to enjoy the scenery!!!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

TrackWalker said:


> Talk to those at the entrance and ask questions.
> 
> Why are there no snacks? When will they return? Who’s decision is it? Who is the supervisor/ manager in charge? What is his contact phone number/email? Etc., etc., etc. No doubt they at least know who their boss is.
> 
> And report back to us.


The Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago sources all food and drink from a local vendor. Beyond that, it's apparent that no one there cares enough to restart the food service... and some of the staff there are indeed dragons who merely show up for work; muddle through the day, then leave.

It seems that throughout Amtrak, the concept of 'service' is irrelevant. Both Amtrak and the US Postal System are the same in many ways... they are large bureaucratic antiquated behemoths that barely function... totally devoid of pride, efficiency, customer care, and innovation; workers come and do their jobs, then go home. The taxpayers have to make the best of it. 

It's looking like the 50th anniversary of Amtrak is marking its final decline.


----------



## railiner

Reading this doom and gloom brings this to mind, from 62 years ago....





__





Who Shot the Passenger Train? Special Issue: April 1959


Who Shot the Passenger Train? Special Issue: April 1959 - The April 1959 issue in which David P. Morgan explains the decline and fall of the American passenger train. 6 articles, 40 pages



kalmbachhobbystore.com


----------



## Rasputin

railiner said:


> Reading this doom and gloom brings this to mind, from 62 years ago....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who Shot the Passenger Train? Special Issue: April 1959
> 
> 
> Who Shot the Passenger Train? Special Issue: April 1959 - The April 1959 issue in which David P. Morgan explains the decline and fall of the American passenger train. 6 articles, 40 pages
> 
> 
> 
> kalmbachhobbystore.com


It is 1967- April 1971 all over again.


----------



## railiner

I haven't read that issue of Train's, but have heard of it. It is somewhat surprising, considering how extensive and well used, passenger trains were in 1959. Several railroads were still ordering new trains and passenger cars, and making other improvements in trying to keep their passengers. If only we could have half of what we had back then...


----------



## Deni

At some point Amtrak will end up looking like Cambodia's train system before the rebuild, empty box cars that everyone strings up their own hammocks. And the once-a-week schedule.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Deni said:


> At some point Amtrak will end up looking like Cambodia's train system before the rebuild, empty box cars that everyone strings up their own hammocks. And the once-a-week schedule.


We're rapidly getting there!


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

The more I think about Amtrak’s statement. “Retired” rather than saying “redeployed” speaks volumes. If past practice is true they will put some sightseers up for sale or destroy them in short order so the decision can’t be reversed. Management has showed their hand. 

We can hope Biden and/or Buttigiegs people step in but similarly DeJoy is still running the USPS, I would have placed money on him being long by now.

This is a tough one. I have no pro Amtrak politicians to write or call in Iowa. Especially concerning food and amenities. I doubt my two senators would vote for the national network this time around even. Just the same I have certified letters going to the DOT and Amtrak’s board tomorrow along with a email and call to the whitehouse switch board. Keep the letters and calls coming especially if you have sympathetic representation in your area.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I feel like the “retired” statement is a form letter reply written for the ppc’s. 

The lounge cars have been going on and off the city, Capitol and eagle ever since the cross country cafe cars were introduced.


----------



## me_little_me

If anyone doesn't believe that Amtrak is deliberately and intentionally working to eliminate LD overnight service, then, IMHO, they have their heads in the sand. They backed off the SWC bustitution because of Congressional complaints and are a bit more subtle about it now but the direction is clear and continuous. LD service will be slowly squeezed in all directions until it dies.


----------



## zephyr17

I agree completely. Current management's goals are the same, they are just better at PR and Congressional relations than Anderson was with his in your face approach. They are boiling us frogs slowly.

All in all, they appear to be using Espee's old playbook to drive passengers off.


----------



## lordsigma

The gloom and doom on this thread seems a bit premature. Everyone thought traditional dining was good for good and tri weekly was here to say. Daily service and traditional dining are coming back (dining at least to the two nighters) but everyone is still gloom and doom - now over the Texas eagle sight seer. The reality is, as some have pointed out, the SSLs have come and gone more than once on these shorter run superliner routes - this is not a revolutionary thing. I’ve ridden the auto train recently and I have to say I thought the soft product upgrades were a step up a and if they are deployed system wide it is an improvement. And there is even talk about making some alterations to the food service in the east. I am, personally, cautiously optimistic that things for Amtrak are in a better place than they were 3 months ago. Why don’t we see the full picture of what is done over the summer before we all start jumping off cliffs?


----------



## zephyr17

Not jumping off any cliffs, but Amtrak's Board and upper management have long been indifferent at best to the long distance services, which turned into overt, outright hostility under Anderson. I see little indication that the direction has genuinely changed and Gartner's promotion indicates it hasn't. Their PR has improved and they aren't as trigger happy as Anderson was, but I see little material evidence of a change of intent.

I do not count Auto Train improvements as a sign of change of intent for the long distance services. Auto Train has long been one of management's favored children along with the NEC.

If they restore traditional dining on the Eastern trains and forbear from gutting the Viewliner diners, as the current 5 year equipment plan calls for, I will see that a material evidence of a change.

I do tend to agree that the response was likely lifted from the PPC response and not a statement of true intent for the SSLs generally, especially for the "bigger" trains. If that is true, it was sloppy and is yet another demonstration of Amtrak's lack of care and lack of competence.

Or even having knowledge of their own product.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

lordsigma said:


> The gloom and doom on this thread seems a bit premature. Everyone thought traditional dining was good for good and tri weekly was here to say. Daily service and traditional dining are coming back (dining at least to the two nighters) but everyone is still gloom and doom - now over the Texas eagle sight seer. The reality is, as some have pointed out, the SSLs have come and gone more than once on these shorter run superliner routes - this is not a revolutionary thing. I’ve ridden the auto train recently and I have to say I thought the soft product upgrades were a step up a and if they are deployed system wide it is an improvement. And there is even talk about making some alterations to the food service in the east. I am, personally, cautiously optimistic that things for Amtrak are in a better place than they were 3 months ago. Why don’t we see the full picture of what is done over the summer before we all start jumping off cliffs?


AU would become a boring place with very few posts being made.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> The gloom and doom on this thread seems a bit premature. Everyone thought traditional dining was good for good and tri weekly was here to say. Daily service and traditional dining are coming back (dining at least to the two nighters) but everyone is still gloom and doom - now over the Texas eagle sight seer. The reality is, as some have pointed out, the SSLs have come and gone more than once on these shorter run superliner routes - this is not a revolutionary thing. I’ve ridden the auto train recently and I have to say I thought the soft product upgrades were a step up a and if they are deployed system wide it is an improvement. And there is even talk about making some alterations to the food service in the east. I am, personally, cautiously optimistic that things for Amtrak are in a better place than they were 3 months ago. Why don’t we see the full picture of what is done over the summer before we all start jumping off cliffs?


There's a lot of skepticism regarding Amtrak's management... and for good reason. The food service is a disaster... and while full service dining is supposed to come back to the Western LD's... it's restart has been pushed back many times. And before it was discontinued it became standardized system wide with a continuous downgrading... simplified... reduced options, etc. It's the downward digression that have so many of us rattled. When the flex concept started on eastern routes it was actually pretty good... meals were nicely boxed in balsa containers... came with a reusable cloth carry bag; toilet kits in the rooms... breakfast included hard boiled eggs... etc etc. but everything was scaled back to bare bones.

RE: the SSC dilemma... there is absolutely no reason to pull it off Amtrak's longest route. The Superliner train sets are here for at least 5 years before they are replaced. No actual viable reason has been given for doing away with the sightseer cars... which are the focal point of the Amtrak experience.

While optimism is usually a good thing... many of us are saying... so let's finally see something that shows Amtrak's commitment to quality service for the customer. While Moynihan Hall is a great start... just one station cannot represent then entire Amtrak National System.


----------



## zephyr17

It does pretty well as representing the NEC, though.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> It does pretty well as representing the NEC, though.


In fairness, it also serves a fair amount of long distance passengers. The NYP lounge sees a fair amount of use by sleeper passengers on the various LD services that originate at NYP.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> When the flex concept started on eastern routes it was actually pretty good... meals were nicely boxed in balsa containers... came with a reusable cloth carry bag; toilet kits in the rooms... breakfast included hard boiled eggs... etc etc. but everything was scaled back to bare bones.


While This line should probably move to the food thread (admin feel free to move it) the change from the initial cold meals to the current meals were in response to passenger feedback - although the cold meals were probably healthier - the feedback they were getting was overwhelmingly negative and people were demanding hot meals. While I would agree that there is certainly room for improvement - I suspect the majority of riders would prefer the current iteration of flex meals than the cold salad boxes that were originally offered. (And I say majority - I’m sure some more diet and health conscious riders probably feel the opposite - but a lot of Americans would prefer hot comfort food.)


----------



## zephyr17

So moving from mediocre but all right (latest incarnation of traditional dining) to terrible then returning as far as merely awful is a good thing?


----------



## SanDiegan

jiml said:


> If we're talking video, SSL's have shown up recently in some unexpected places, including Surfliners on San Juan Capistrano railcam and southern Illinois services on YouTube.


It's almost as if Amtrak doesn't know what to do with them !


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> In fairness, it also serves a fair amount of long distance passengers. The NYP lounge sees a fair amount of use by sleeper passengers on the various LD services that originate at NYP.


In fairness, they are not the target demographic. They are incidental beneficiaries of improvements primarily aimed at NEC, particularly Acela, passengers.

If they brought services in Chicago's Metropolitan Lounge to the same standards, then I would say that long distance travelers were the intended target group.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Too bad long distance passengers aren’t even worthy of Acela meals. 2-3 years now of flex meals on the Capitol/Lake Shore and they still refuse to bring the food to that level even with Acela commissaries on the route. It’s so obvious it’s all set up to fail. Just like removing the lounges now.


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Too bad long distance passengers aren’t even worthy of Acela meals. 2-3 years now of flex meals on the Capitol/Lake Shore and they still refuse to bring the food to that level even with Acela commissaries on the route. It’s so obvious it’s all set up to fail. Just like removing the lounges now.


Yes, it appears that Espee's Ben Biaggini is alive and well, having been reincarnated as Stephen Gartner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I suspect the majority of riders would prefer the current iteration of flex meals than the cold salad boxes that were originally offered.



I’m not sure. If just reading a menu? Sure. If actually seeing the 2 meals, I’m going to guess a majority would choose the salad boxes. I know I would. 



zephyr17 said:


> If they brought services in Chicago's Metropolitan Lounge to the same standards, then I would say that long distance travelers were the intended target group.



What standards? What is nyc doing that’s so special?


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> What standards? What is nyc doing that’s so special?


High quality food service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> High quality food service.



What’s actually available?


----------



## zephyr17

crescent-zephyr said:


> What’s actually available?


----------



## daybeers

Awesome! Where's that from?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

That doesn’t seem drastically different from what was available at Chicago when the new lounge first opened.


----------



## Mailliw

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Too bad long distance passengers aren’t even worthy of Acela meals. 2-3 years now of flex meals on the Capitol/Lake Shore and they still refuse to bring the food to that level even with Acela commissaries on the route. It’s so obvious it’s all set up to fail. Just like removing the lounges now.


Actually hasn't Amtrak started serving flex meals in Acela First Class?


----------



## bms

zephyr17 said:


> Yes, it appears that Espee's Ben Biaggini is alive and well, having been reincarnated as Stephen Gartner.



He would have loved Amtrak's recent habit of changing to a new timetable without any announcement, or even posting a timetable online. How long would it take someone to open up the document for the 2020 Crescent timetable and change the times?


----------



## zephyr17

daybeers said:


> Awesome! Where's that from?


Screenshots of pictures posted towards the end of the Moynihan Station thread in the Amtrak Guest Rewards forum at Flyertalk.

Since I knew they were over there, seemed the quickest way to answer.


----------



## tonys96

lordsigma said:


> The gloom and doom on this thread seems a bit premature. Everyone thought traditional dining was good for good and tri weekly was here to say. Daily service and traditional dining are coming back (dining at least to the two nighters) but everyone is still gloom and doom - now over the Texas eagle sight seer. The reality is, as some have pointed out, the SSLs have come and gone more than once on these shorter run superliner routes - this is not a revolutionary thing. I’ve ridden the auto train recently and I have to say I thought the soft product upgrades were a step up a and if they are deployed system wide it is an improvement. And there is even talk about making some alterations to the food service in the east. I am, personally, cautiously optimistic that things for Amtrak are in a better place than they were 3 months ago. Why don’t we see the full picture of what is done over the summer before we all start jumping off cliffs?


A number of years ago, here on AU, a number of folks had the same attitude as you when Amtrak removed real plates, silverware, amenity kits and of course the flower from trains. Their attitude was "no big deal". Several others, who were more prescient, saw the slippery slope beginning and were ridiculed here.
We now see whose thoughts proved correct.
And the bottom of that slope has yet to be reached, IMHO.


----------



## Rasputin

tonys96 said:


> And the bottom of that slope has yet to be reached, IMHO.


We will know that the bottom is near when Amtrak emulates SP and repeats "The Disappearing Railroad Passenger" ad from the 1960s in its publicity.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> That doesn’t seem drastically different from what was available at Chicago when the new lounge *first opened.*


And since then it's been downgraded. So zephyr17's point still stands.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> And since then it's been downgraded. So zephyr17's point still stands.



You really think it’s going to last in nyc? This is the same management that wouldn’t replace the coffee maker in the club Acela in New York penn.

I guess I’m just extra pessimistic when it comes to Amtrak these days. I’m tired of hoping they will finally improve. :-/


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> You really think it’s going to last in nyc? This is the same management that wouldn’t replace the coffee maker in the club Acela in New York penn.


We'll just have to wait and see. I'm hopeful


----------



## JoeBas

tonys96 said:


> And the bottom of that slope has yet to be reached, IMHO.



Americans are an exceptional people, and we will *not *allow ourselves to be beaten in this race to the bottom.


----------



## Rasputin

JoeBas said:


> Americans are an exceptional people, and we will *not *allow ourselves to be beaten in this race to the bottom.


Some will be satisfied with a boxcar or gondola with folding chairs and will extoll on the virtues of the ventilation in that case.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

It really all comes down to voting for the right people. The cancer is so deep within Amtrak and other aspects of our country that it’s going to take more than one election to turn things around. Let’s hope Amtrak as we know it is isn’t a causality before things are stabilized.


----------



## Asher

Bob Dylan said:


> The Cafe is operated in the small end of the Diner ( CCC) that runs on the CONO and the Texas Eagle, but Coach passengers have to eat and drink in their Seats, they're not allowed to sit in the Crews " Lounge", which is where they hang out now that the Transdorms are also not operating on the Eagles.
> 
> The other bad feature of this "hybrid" car is that the LSA and SCA gets to make up their own rules as to whether or not SLEEPER Passengers can eat in the " Diner ",or have to pick up their " Meals" in a "To Go " Bag or have it delivered by the 1 SCA on the Train and eat in their rooms.
> 
> On my last 2 trips on the Eagle (Round trips)to Dallas and San Antonio, it was 50/50 as to whether we had a choice, and also the Cafe would be Closed for Hours as the Overworked LSA would be busy heating and packing up the Sleeping Car Passengers meals, sometimes assisted by the also Overworked SCA and the 1 Coach Attendant!().


Time to stop calling us passengers. 
Gondola, Boxcar, Cattle Car. Load it up, haul em down the track.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Do anyone think RPA cares about this issue? I have found little vaue to being a member in recent years. Well, maybe the 10% discount is a bit of an incentive.


----------



## lordsigma

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Too bad long distance passengers aren’t even worthy of Acela meals. 2-3 years now of flex meals on the Capitol/Lake Shore and they still refuse to bring the food to that level even with Acela commissaries on the route. It’s so obvious it’s all set up to fail. Just like removing the lounges now.


They are essentially the same - Acela's meals are now the same vendor and essentially same format as flexible dining. Basically the difference is no salad on acela. So if it was really setup to fail then why are they putting the same meals on their prized service?


----------



## lordsigma

tonys96 said:


> A number of years ago, here on AU, a number of folks had the same attitude as you when Amtrak removed real plates, silverware, amenity kits and of course the flower from trains. Their attitude was "no big deal". Several others, who were more prescient, saw the slippery slope beginning and were ridiculed here.
> We now see whose thoughts proved correct.
> And the bottom of that slope has yet to be reached, IMHO.


I'm not ridiculing - I apologize if anyone took offense - admittedly my post was a little sarcastic.. I'm simply stating - why not just wait and see what happens in the next couple months? There's still a lot of unknowns about a lot of these issues - we have no idea what food is going to look like. It's also possible these lounges will eventually come back on the eagle. Remember that they are beginning a refresh program on the superliner equipment and that we are soon going back to daily. To do the refresh all the equipment will at one point have to be taken out of service. They may need all the lounges available to have enough cars to get the zephyr, chief, builder, and coast starlight back to daily.


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> In fairness, they are not the target demographic. They are incidental beneficiaries of improvements primarily aimed at NEC, particularly Acela, passengers.
> 
> If they brought services in Chicago's Metropolitan Lounge to the same standards, then I would say that long distance travelers were the intended target group.


That's kind of a cynical take - Chicago station is also used by many corridor services. Also Washington's lounge is mostly NEC and nothing special (and is actually quite neglected.) They benefitted from New York State's project - why not try to make this lounge really nice? A lounge is a lounge and all are open to all Amtrak first class and select plus passengers - I can get points to get select plus status no matter what kind of train I take and can use any of the lounges. Not really seeing where long distance passengers are discriminated against. New York is simply the newest lounge and they basically got to lay it out from scratch - no surprise that it's the fanciest.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> The Cafe is operated in the small end of the Diner ( CCC) that runs on the CONO and the Texas Eagle, but Coach passengers have to eat and drink in their Seats, they're not allowed to sit in the Crews " Lounge", which is where they hang out now that the Transdorms are also not operating on the Eagles.
> 
> The other bad feature of this "hybrid" car is that the LSA and SCA gets to make up their own rules as to whether or not SLEEPER Passengers can eat in the " Diner ",or have to pick up their " Meals" in a "To Go " Bag or have it delivered by the 1 SCA on the Train and eat in their rooms.
> 
> On my last 2 trips on the Eagle (Round trips)to Dallas and San Antonio, it was 50/50 as to whether we had a choice, and also the Cafe would be Closed for Hours as the Overworked LSA would be busy heating and packing up the Sleeping Car Passengers meals, sometimes assisted by the also Overworked SCA and the 1 Coach Attendant!().


Disturbing lack of consistency... lack of service... lack of customer care... as the financial strangulation of the Amtrak mechanism has the red flags waving!

If Amtrak is to be a passenger railroad... then management should run it as such!!!


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> That's kind of a cynical take - Chicago station is also used by many corridor services. Also Washington's lounge is mostly NEC and nothing special (and is actually quite neglected.) They benefitted from New York State's project - why not try to make this lounge really nice? A lounge is a lounge and all are open to all Amtrak first class and select plus passengers - I can get points to get select plus status no matter what kind of train I take and can use any of the lounges. Not really seeing where long distance passengers are discriminated against. New York is simply the newest lounge and they basically got to lay it out from scratch - no surprise that it's the fanciest.


Exactly!

I bet the Washington DC Lounge will become the finest when the head house is reconfigured as part of the terminal reconstruction project too.

If Illinois/Chicago throws a billion or two at Union Station it will get the finest lounge among other fine things too.

Those of you who traced the ebs and flows of the development of the Moynihan Train Hall will recall that at one time Boardman's Amtrak was opposed to moving to the new concourse. Instead they got the deluded Warrington, the then NJT boss, to agree to move NJ Transit to it, never mind that half the platforms used by NJT were not going to be directly accessible from it. Fortunately that idiocy went away with the departure of both Boardman and Warrington, both past Amtrak warriors. It would be quite a comedy if it were not such a continuing tragedy overall.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> That's kind of a cynical take - Chicago station is also used by many corridor services. Also Washington's lounge is mostly NEC and nothing special (and is actually quite neglected.) They benefitted from New York State's project - why not try to make this lounge really nice? A lounge is a lounge and all are open to all Amtrak first class and select plus passengers - I can get points to get select plus status no matter what kind of train I take and can use any of the lounges. Not really seeing where long distance passengers are discriminated against. New York is simply the newest lounge and they basically got to lay it out from scratch - no surprise that it's the fanciest.


A very cynical take and I do not deny it. They aren't discriminating against long distance travelers at New York and I never said that. They are not supporting the customer experience in long distance services in general, as the gist of this thread makes very clear. The disparity of the service at the NY Metropolitan Lounge versus Chicago is just an fairly glaring illustration of that. Plus I seriously doubt New York State has very much to do with the quality of catering in NYP's Metropolitan Lounge.

Further, Chicago does have a lot of corridor service, but the ratio of corridor users to long distance distance users of lounge services is a lot different at Chicago. Just witness the mobs in there just before the departure of the western long distance trains in the afternoon.

Also, your rather casual statement that you can get to Select Plus, and therefore lounge access, easily by taking enough trains at any service level says quite a bit. Many of us on this board, like most of the country, do not have the level of rail service that would allow us to get to any AGR elite level by Amtrak travel alone.


----------



## jis

zephyr17 said:


> Also, your rather casual statement that you can get to Select Plus, and therefore lounge access, easily by taking enough trains at any service level says quite a bit. Many of us on this board, like most of the country, do not have the level of rail service that would allow us to get to any AGR elite level by Amtrak travel alone.


Didn't you realize that is why they are raising the fares so that you can get to the level quicker!  Looks like even I will make Select+ again this year after a hiatus of a couple years.


----------



## me_little_me

PaTrainFan said:


> Do anyone think RPA cares about this issue? I have found little vaue to being a member in recent years. Well, maybe the 10% discount is a bit of an incentive.


Makes one wonder if the 10% discount would disappear if the RPA dared to be critical of Amtrak management's decisions instead of just pushing for more money for it.

Just saying. No accusation here. I NEVER attribute anything but the best from Amtrak management.


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> I'm not ridiculing - I apologize if anyone took offense - admittedly my post was a little sarcastic.. I'm simply stating - why not just wait and see what happens in the next couple months? There's still a lot of unknowns about a lot of these issues - we have no idea what food is going to look like. It's also possible these lounges will eventually come back on the eagle. Remember that they are beginning a refresh program on the superliner equipment and that we are soon going back to daily. To do the refresh all the equipment will at one point have to be taken out of service. They may need all the lounges available to have enough cars to get the zephyr, chief, builder, and coast starlight back to daily.


Well, how long did people hold their breath for the promised new room amenities?

How long did people hold their breath for the promised points and cash choice for AGR?

How long did people hold their breath for the promised VL2 sleepers as they sat in storage?

How long did people hold their breath for any of Amtrak's promises.

How long did people hold their breath for the new baggage cars only to find out that Amtrak eliminated the baggage service at a bunch of stations.

May we have a moment of silence for those that did so? They are just a memory now.

As to the Superliners, Amtrak does NOT have the money to do any refurbishment. The money MIGHT get approved by congress as part of the infrastructure stimulus. The money MIGHT not be taken away by the next congress if the parties change hands. I'm going to kick everyone out of my hotel now because we are in the planning process to do upgrades IF we get the money. THat would be pretty idiotic.

As to WHY Lounges were taken off the TE, does anyone know that? Has Amtrak management come out and said "Here is why we are taking them off. We only have x amount of serviceable ones because or recent issues and we have to move the TE ones TEMPORARILY to the other trains until the issues are fixed"?


----------



## lordsigma

zephyr17 said:


> Also, your rather casual statement that you can get to Select Plus, and therefore lounge access, easily by taking enough trains at any service level says quite a bit. Many of us on this board, like most of the country, do not have the level of rail service that would allow us to get to any AGR elite level by Amtrak travel alone.



I would never make select plus were it not for my LD travel in sleepers. Sleepers are actually the quickest and easiest way to make select plus (for me at least). I do get some points from corridor trips, but as I’m not a business traveler I would never get enough points from just my occasional trips to New York and dc and other corridor type trips without at least a couple sleeper trips. I have to imagine the only people that can make those kind of tiers on Acela or NER alone are business travelers/commuters and others than have to travel up and down the corridor regularly or if you do FC on Acela all the time. Remember also NO NER or empire corridor or other trains business class gets automatic lounge access - it’s only Acela FC and sleepers. So would could argue the lounge at NYP is more for LD passengers than it is for NER.


----------



## Mailliw

lordsigma said:


> I would never make select plus were it not for my LD travel in sleepers. Sleepers are actually the quickest and easiest way to make select plus (for me at least). I do get some points from corridor trips, but as I’m not a business traveler I would never get enough points from just my occasional trips to New York and dc and other corridor type trips without at least a couple sleeper trips. I have to imagine the only people that can make those kind of tiers on Acela or NER alone are business travelers/commuters and others than have to travel up and down the corridor regularly or if you do FC on Acela all the time. Remember also NO NER or empire corridor or other trains business class gets automatic lounge access - it’s only Acela FC and sleepers. So would could argue the lounge at NYP is more for LD passengers than it is for NER.


Ironic since there's a 25% bonus for Business Class, 50% for Acela First, and no bonus at all for Sleeper fares.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Mailliw said:


> Ironic since there's a 25% bonus for Business Class, 50% for Acela First, and no bonus at all for Sleeper fares.


One of Amtraks stupider decisions when they " inproved" AGR several years ago!


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## 20th Century Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> One of Amtraks stupider decisions when they " inproved" AGR several years ago!


Those who are most faithful to Amtrak and who pay the most are the ones most disregarded.

Am I saying this right??? 

Millennials are held in the highest regard! They even created their culinary focus based upon their every wish and whim.

In the end they never connected with those Millennials... and threw away the most loyal patrons.

Amtrak Guest Rewards is a study of 'failure in motion.'


----------



## zephyr17

20th Century Rider said:


> Amtrak Guest Rewards is a study of 'failure in motion.'


Fitting, since Amtrak as a whole is a "failure in motion".

Management and the Board have got to go.


----------



## bms

20th Century Rider said:


> Millennials are held in the highest regard! They even created their culinary focus based upon their every wish and whim.



Nobody asked for Flexible Dining. "Millenial" was just a marketing buzzword that meant nothing.


----------



## Sidney

Flexible dining has to go down as one of Amtrak's biggest failures. Lets hope for a July 1 return to what we had before the pandemic. Sadly Eastern passengers are getting the worst situation..sky high sleeper prices and the continuation of the dreck they call food.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

One exact thing you can say about Amtrak... it's united all its patrons... in anguish and disgust against those small synthetic food rations... and of course the removal of the SSL's - the center point of scenery and socializing on those three day trans continental journeys.


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## jis

How soon people forget...

AGR was primarily created for competing with airlines on the NEC with Acela. That is why the additional bells and whistles are all corridor focused, things like bonus TQP for BC and First etc. The primary driver was getting airline passengers on the corridor to move to Amtrak. The rest was just incidental.

It has always been incidental that all other Amtrak travel also gets to take some advantage of AGR. Historically AGR has never given any special dispensation for LD services, which would further indicate that historically, but for some individual initiatives like the Pacific Parlour Cars and the Culinary Institute of American collaboration on Diner menus, LD service has been mostly in maintenance mode, after the last tranche of Superliners were delivered. It is actually astonishing that it is only now that people are waking upto this reality.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> How soon people forget...
> 
> AGR was primarily created for competing with airlines on the NEC with Acela. That is why the additional bells and whistles are all corridor focused, things like bonus TQP for BC and First etc. The primary driver was getting airline passengers on the corridor to move to Amtrak. The rest was just incidental.
> 
> It has always been incidental that all other Amtrak travel also gets to take some advantage of AGR. Historically AGR has never given any special dispensation for LD services, which would further indicate that historically even, for some individual initiatives like the Pacific Parlour Cars and the Culinary Institute of American collaboration on Diner menus, LD service has been mostly in maintenance mode, after the last tranche of Superliners were delivered. It is actually astonishing that it is only now that people are waking upto this reality.


So... who 'owns' Amtrak? Do not the taxpayers have a right to demand an equitable transit service from the US government? I guess if the government is running Amtrak like it runs the US Postal System, we shouldn't expect reasonable service... and can only hope for private enterprise to take over.

Many times posts have shown how Space X and other private institutions step in and do a better job and at greater cost efficiency.

Amtrak is certainly a lot more than the NEC. Tax payers live everywhere.


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## tomfuller

My last experience with food service on the Texas Eagle was early morning Friday 5/7 (possibly THE last). We were caught in a traffic jam of freight trains that were coming out of Los Angeles while we were coming in nearly 3 hours late from the "padded" arrival time into LAX.
I was in coach. Breakfast was only being served to sleeping car passengers in the crew lounge (formerly known as the dining car). Downstairs in the lounge car the cafe attendant was serving free coffee, orange juice and cranberry juice. I did manage to get 2 free cups of cranberry juice (with ice). There were no items available for sale (breakfast or otherwise).
I proceeded directly from Track 10 LAUS where the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle arrived to the bus bay without a chance at getting any breakfast. I did manage to get a Snickers bar ($1.75) from a vending machine at the Bakersfield station.
On the San Joaquin they were handing out small snack packs and 6 oz. water bottles. I did get a hot meal in Old Sac after 7PM.


----------



## jis

20th Century Rider said:


> So... who 'owns' Amtrak? Do not the taxpayers have a right to demand an equitable transit service from the US government? I guess if the government is running Amtrak like it runs the US Postal System, we shouldn't expect reasonable service... and can only hope for private enterprise to take over.
> 
> Many times posts have shown how Space X and other private institutions step in and do a better job and at greater cost efficiency.
> 
> Amtrak is certainly a lot more than the NEC. Tax payers live everywhere.


I would just point out that for the last fifty years several attempts (admittedly some would say not serious, but as required by legislation) have been made to hand over select long distance trains to private enterprise and there have been no takers. Private enterprise is mostly about moving money making stuff to the private enterprise while socializing loss makers. All indications are that Amtrak falls mostly in the latter category notwithstanding the delusions of many rail aficionados, including apparently some here too.

There is one possible way to fix this and that is to monetize the effect of the service provided and plow that back into the service provider. But that is not how things are done. RPA has documented the economic effect of Amtrak service in each county and state, but as of now none of that is accounted for in the financials of Amtrak or the state. Some of the accounting and justification for suburban and urban transit actually takes such into account. Operations like Amtrak California, Cascades and NEC and its extensions fall under that category as do the large suburban operations. Things like Brightline Texas Central and Brightline West also fall under that category, but none of their business plans and structures would support a train or two a day LD service, and certainly not for fares that people here seem to think they are entitled to.

As things stand, the reality is that most taxpayers, specially in the space served by LDs, actually couldn't give two hoots if there was Amtrak around, and would not miss it if it was gone. Only a small proportion of people are actually served by Amtrak and an even smaller proportion care enough to stand up actively in support. Actually there is more active support for and desire to fund the suburban passenger rail operations than for Amtrak, and the relative budgetary allocations are indicative of that. Of course Amtrak is the beneficiary of that phenomenon when it happens to be associated with such operations in some form or the other, like on the NEC. No one would dream of funding new tunnels under the Hudson if it was just for Amtrak service, nor the few billion that is being spent on New York Penn Station. The new Portal South Bridge is funded primarily through New Jersey Transit by FTA and not via Amtrak by FRA even though of course, Amtrak would be a significant beneficiary of it.


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## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> I would just point out that for the last fifty years several attempts (admittedly some would say not serious, but as required by legislation) have been made to hand over select long distance trains to private enterprise and there have been no takers. Private enterprise is mostly about moving money making stuff to the private enterprise while socializing loss makers. All indications are that Amtrak falls mostly in the latter category notwithstanding the delusions of many rail aficionados, including apparently some here too.
> 
> There is one possible way to fix this and that is to monetize the effect of the service provided and plow that back into the service provider. But that is not how things are done. RPA has documented the economic effect of Amtrak service in each county and state, but as of now none of that is accounted for in the financials of Amtrak or the state. Some of the accounting and justification for suburban and urban transit actually takes such into account. Operations like Amtrak California, Cascades and NEC and its extensions fall under that category as do the large suburban operations. Things like Brightline Texas Central and Brightline West also fall under that category, but none of their business plans and structures would support a train or two a day LD service, and certainly not for fares that people here seem to think they are entitled to.
> 
> As things stand, the reality is that most taxpayers, specially in the space served by LDs, actually couldn't give two hoots if there was Amtrak around, and would not miss it if it was gone. Only a small proportion of people are actually served by Amtrak and an even smaller proportion care enough to stand up actively in support. Actually there is more active support for and desire to fund the suburban passenger rail operations than for Amtrak. Of course Amtrak is the beneficiary of that phenomenon when it happens to be associated with such operations in some form or the other.


The two biggest issues with LD is that it goes through sparsely populated areas... and rail is dependent upon freight lines who already own the beds... who decided to get rid of passenger service 50 years ago. Yet in countries where government is more pro rail and aggressive, modern rail transit exists. So it will be interesting to see what happens to LD.


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## zephyr17

20th Century Rider said:


> Amtrak is certainly a lot more than the NEC.


Not in the minds of Amtrak management, not for years.

They appear to regard it as an albatross they are stuck with, to be tolerated at best.


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> One of Amtraks stupider decisions when they " inproved" AGR several years ago!


Not stupid. Deliberate! It has become intuitively obvious to the most casual observer where they are headed.


----------



## Larry H.

I will have to disagree with the comment that those who live on the routes of LD trains couldn't care a hoot for Amtrak. I wonder if the writer has been in Union Station where many of the Long Distance trains originate? I see hundreds of people boarding the trains, and if statistics I read here are right most of them are not going the whole way. So those in between towns most certainly do carry considerable passengers who would for the most part not have other easy to reach transit options. Not being one who is willing to fly any longer the rail offers the only other real choice out where I am near a small town which Amtrak stops at. I still say the biggest reason long distance doesn't show big gains is the fact that Amtrak removed two thirds of the system after a year or so which nearly killed choices for rail to reach a destination easily or cheaply. And like most here the fact the equipment is far to few available you see sold out on many parts of the trips often. If it were run correctly any time a car was sold out another would be added. Thats how the rail roads did it, but somehow Amtrak has refused to acknowledge that while sometimes complaining of not enough riders!


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## Oreius

Here’s the southbound Eagle in Dallas today. Only 5 cars plus one engine. Two sleepers, one diner/lounge, one baggage/Coach, and one Coach.


----------



## Oreius

Pathetic for a long-distance train.


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## Rasputin

And not even twenty-five sacks of mail.


----------



## saxman

So if you want more bad news about the Texas Eagle here goes. A frustrated employee on social media posted this:

This will be the consist of the Eagle going forward:
1 Engine
1 Sleeper
1 Diner/CCC
1 coach/bag
1 coach (with lower level seats)

Also traditional dining car service will NOT be returning to the Eagle. The onboard staff will be minimal, 1 overworked LSA for both sleepers and cafe, 1 sleeper attendant, and 1 coach attendant.

Dorm car will also not be coming back either. The Dorm car issue deserves its own thread but here is the gist: At COVID Amtrak decided to park most of the Dorm cars. Now they are having trouble bringing them back because they all require inspections that can only be done in Beach Grove, Chicago, or Los Angeles. Wonder why sleepers are so expensive now going into the summer? It's because crew are taking up several rooms in the regular sleepers now. The Sunset Limited is only able to sell 7 roomettes on it's sleeper (130/230). (There's a little relief west of San Antonio because of the 421/422 sleeper added) The Eagle will only be able to sell 11 of its 14 rooms. I couldn't tell if Amtrak is trying to bring the dorms back or if they don't care to.

This employee asked that this is coming from management from DC most of which have never seen a western LD train, so mostly they just don't know how full or popular a Texas Eagle or CONO train can actually be if given the right tools. It's basically up to us to call Amtrak Customer Relations and complain. They won't listen to the individual route managers in the field. Perhaps enough customer service complaints will at least make them aware. So please call if you can.


----------



## Rasputin

saxman said:


> This will be the consist of the Eagle going forward:
> 1 Engine
> 1 Sleeper
> 1 Diner/CCC
> 1 coach/bag
> 1 coach (with lower level seats)


What???? No boxcar with folding chairs?


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## crescent-zephyr

Yup.... the death of long distance has begun.

Perhaps the “retiring SSL” letter wasn’t about the ppc but they really are going to get rid of the dorms and ssl’s slowly.


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## Sidney

I am on the Texas Eagle tomorrow from Chi to Lax. In light of traditional dining not returning,the removal of the SSL car and the hefty jump in roomette prices this is probably the last trip on that route for me.

It's a one overnight train so it now is in the same category as the CONO. Idiotic decision,but it's Amtrak.


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## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yup.... the death of long distance has begun.


Maybe instead of immediately accepting defeat we should voice our concerns to Congress and the RPA.


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## ShiningTimeStL

I'm finding these little tidbits from employees very hard to believe. I'm finding all of this rather hard to believe besides the fact of how much damage covid and triweekly service has done. Even if this is legit, there's no way it will stand. TEMPO and RPA will light up the sky with tracers to shoot it down along with all of us. If Amtrak wants to go to war, they'll lose this battle at the reauthorization.


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## jis

Does TEMPO actually exist as an active entity any more? Their website seems to vaguely reflect that it does not. I hope I am wrong. Anyone know for sure?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Devil's Advocate said:


> Maybe instead of immediately accepting defeat we should voice our concerns to Congress and the RPA.



I’m admittedly feeling very pessimistic about Amtrak’s future. If you still have hope more power to you.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

I couldn’t find any useful or live links either.



jis said:


> Does TEMPO actually exist as an active entity any more? Their website seems to vaguely reflect that it does not. I hope I am wrong. Anyone know for sure?


----------



## Sidney

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m admittedly feeling very pessimistic about Amtrak’s future. If you still have hope more power to you.


I thought Anderson was about rock bottom.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Sidney said:


> I thought Anderson was about rock bottom.



Me too. Clearly I was wrong. I wish we could have kept Wick a bit longer.... things were looking good.


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## ShiningTimeStL

Passenger rail overall is looking brighter, even if they are tunnel-visioning on corridors. Here's a theory: the TE is looking grim right now because of the dorm issue and issues recalling employees for daily service. They could have a full train before because triweekly service required less staff. Does that make sense? Otherwise, why target the Teagle so specifically this way? If Amtrak really wanted to start drawing down LD services for discontinuance, they would be taking cars off of other trains too and sending prices to the moon. Instead they're bringing back traditional dining. Something doesn't add up here. 

I mean, I have zero hope for the future in general, honestly, but that's not completely relevant here.


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## Amtrakfflyer

They have specifically said in the recent past they only want to operate 6 or so long distance routes in some form. This would seem to go along with that statement.


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## ShiningTimeStL

Amtrakfflyer said:


> They have specifically said in the recent past they only want to operate 6 or so long distance routes in some form. This would seem to go along with that statement.


Who said this? How recently?


----------



## lordsigma

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Who said this? How recently?


Gardner and Anderson had alluded to it. In their various comments on the issue along with other actions the only safe trains in their current form appeared to be the Zephyr, Builder, Coast Starlight, and Auto train. They clearly wanted to ditch the sunset limited and southwest chief. Although I don’t think it necessarily meant that they’d abandon the network completely - I think they saw some routes replaced by interconnected corridor services and shorter distance trains. All stations on most routes may have retained some service but you may have no longer had an end to end overnight train and had to make connections along the way


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## lordsigma

I think they saw having a few routes with the premium traditional experiential amenities - with basic transit elsewhere.I think flex dining is part of that methodology - have the full dining service on a few flagship routes and provide more basic amenities on the other. I personally am fine with flexible dining on one night trains - but with the mica mandate gone they should make some investments in improving the presentation, meal quality including better choices for folks with more restrictive diets, and addressing some of the common complaints (like offering cafe car menu items for lunch)


----------



## saxman

TEMPO still exists, although their influence has been reduced, mostly by the Anderson team, I believe.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Devil's Advocate said:


> Maybe instead of immediately accepting defeat we should voice our concerns to Congress and the RPA.



RPA? Ha. Okay. Maybe if you send them more money.


----------



## Cal

By the way, I saw an image of a midwest-service train with superliners and an SSL on it while scrolling through Instagram. Another corridor train using SSL's while the Eagle doesn't get them...


----------



## saxman

Anderson and Gardner, I believe, were given a dose of what support the LD trains get when they came up with their silly midnight bus plan, which should give us encouragement. In addition, when the original plan for the Cross Country Cafe came out in the mid-aughts this was the original plan for them; they would be diner/lounges for the shorter trains. RPA and TEMPO were able to convince them to at least keep the SSL on the trains as they were a big selling point, even for routes like the TE and CONO. Let's face it. The Eagle and CONO aren't the most scenic routes. They are probably thinking that since these routes are more for just getting somewhere then they don't deserve the amenities the scenic "experiential" trains have. But the Eagle is the "slow train through Texas." Having dining cars, day sleepers, and a nice lounge car are what helped us attract people to the train to collect more revenue. I cringe when I have to tell people it takes nearly 10 hours to go from Dallas to San Antonio. I had to explain the long stop in Fort Worth and that it only takes 4:20 from there to Austin! Thats actually somewhat competitive to driving on I-35!

Also, I wish we could stop using the term "long distance" trains. They seem to have a negative vs. the "future corridor trains." Long distance train ARE corridor trains, with dozens of corridors and possible city pairs. Much more than the corridor trains can produce.


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## zephyr17

My opinion is Flynn is just better at PR and the objectives remain the same. He's slowly boiling frogs. Anderson turn the heat all the way up at the get go and the frogs all jumped out.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

saxman said:


> The Eagle and CONO aren't the most scenic routes.



The City is a very scenic route imho. They used to have national park guides that gave tours in the SSL. Before the superliners the city had a dome car - some of my favorite young memories!


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> The City is a very scenic route imho. They used to have national park guides that gave tours in the SSL. Before the superliners the city had a dome car - some of my favorite young memories!


And even then, it's so relaxing to sit in the SSL and enjoy the ride. No matter the scenery


----------



## Sidney

The Sightseer Cars make a long distance train trip memorable and passengers love them. Why the Eagle doesn't have one is baffling.


----------



## zephyr17

Not if saving pennies while discouraging ridership are your objectives.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m admittedly feeling very pessimistic about Amtrak’s future. If you still have hope more power to you.


It's not about being hopeful so much as feeling a responsibility to never dig a grave with soft hands.


----------



## Railspike

_For those wishing to call or write, Here's Pete Buttigieg's DOT contact info:
(See specific Administration within the DOT below)_

*DOT Customer Service Center: *202-366-4000

Monday through Friday between 8:30 am and 5:30 pm Eastern Time excluding Federal Holidays.

*Deaf, hard of hearing, and speech impaired callers*

Contact the general information switchboard using the Federal Relay Services.

*Mail Us*
Correspondence to the Department may be sent to:

* U.S. Department of Transportation
1200 New Jersey Ave, SE
Washington, DC 20590

Please note: *Correspondence must be addressed to a specific administration within the U.S. Department of Transportation, or the U.S. Postal Service will not be able to deliver it. A list of DOT administrations and their various responsibilities can be found on the DOT Agencies webpage.

_And here's the specific administration within the DOT:_

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

*Federal Railroad Administration*

1200 NEW JERSEY AVENUE, SE

WASHINGTON, DC 20590

202-366-4000


----------



## toddinde

I think we have to begin to accept that Gardner meant what he said about the long distance trains and is not going to be a positive Amtrak president. He reportedly had deep Democratic Party ties, but I think it’s getting to the point where he needs to be replaced if this is the kind of crap Amtrak is going to be pulling. Complaints to the Secretary of Transportation might be very effective because he actually understands and has ridden long distance Amtrak trains. People who haven’t ridden the train aren’t going to understand what the difference in dining car and flex meals are, or why an SSL is not the same as a crisis country cafe. Keep in mind; this appears to be a game to drive down patronage and kill the long distance trains. Gardner said he was all about this. Some thought that was just Anderson talking, but now we know.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Thank you. It’s not a conspiracy theory as some have alluded to on here. When people show their cards and flat out lie to further their agenda as Gardner has done you can’t turn a blind eye. Gardner needs to go but so does Flynn and the board. It can be done in one afternoon.



toddinde said:


> I think we have to begin to accept that Gardner meant what he said about the long distance trains and is not going to be a positive Amtrak president. He reportedly had deep Democratic Party ties, but I think it’s getting to the point where he needs to be replaced if this is the kind of crap Amtrak is going to be pulling. Complaints to the Secretary of Transportation might be very effective because he actually understands and has ridden long distance Amtrak trains. People who haven’t ridden the train aren’t going to understand what the difference in dining car and flex meals are, or why an SSL is not the same as a crisis country cafe. Keep in mind; this appears to be a game to drive down patronage and kill the long distance trains. Gardner said he was all about this. Some thought that was just Anderson talking, but now we know.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Oreius said:


> Here’s the southbound Eagle in Dallas today. Only 5 cars plus one engine. Two sleepers, one diner/lounge, one baggage/Coach, and one Coach.


How to starve the LD concept. Very sad. But I'll bet the Amtrak bean counters are smiling and happy!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

saxman said:


> So if you want more bad news about the Texas Eagle here goes. A frustrated employee on social media posted this:
> 
> This will be the consist of the Eagle going forward:
> 1 Engine
> 1 Sleeper
> 1 Diner/CCC
> 1 coach/bag
> 1 coach (with lower level seats)
> 
> Also traditional dining car service will NOT be returning to the Eagle. The onboard staff will be minimal, 1 overworked LSA for both sleepers and cafe, 1 sleeper attendant, and 1 coach attendant.
> 
> Dorm car will also not be coming back either. The Dorm car issue deserves its own thread but here is the gist: At COVID Amtrak decided to park most of the Dorm cars. Now they are having trouble bringing them back because they all require inspections that can only be done in Beach Grove, Chicago, or Los Angeles. Wonder why sleepers are so expensive now going into the summer? It's because crew are taking up several rooms in the regular sleepers now. The Sunset Limited is only able to sell 7 roomettes on it's sleeper (130/230). (There's a little relief west of San Antonio because of the 421/422 sleeper added) The Eagle will only be able to sell 11 of its 14 rooms. I couldn't tell if Amtrak is trying to bring the dorms back or if they don't care to.
> 
> This employee asked that this is coming from management from DC most of which have never seen a western LD train, so mostly they just don't know how full or popular a Texas Eagle or CONO train can actually be if given the right tools. It's basically up to us to call Amtrak Customer Relations and complain. They won't listen to the individual route managers in the field. Perhaps enough customer service complaints will at least make them aware. So please call if you can.


I'm riding the Eagle next October... what? No full service dining? I don't think it'll ever come back. Will be packing peanut butter, jelly, and crackers... and some 'happy juice' to wash it down. 

Roomettes are ok... but I was so used to meandering to the SSL as part of the daily routine on full day travel. I am agast with disappointment at hearing this. 

Your info has convinced me that LD will soon be gone.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> I'm riding the Eagle next October... what? No full service dining? I don't think it'll ever come back. Will be packing peanut butter, jelly, and crackers... and some 'happy juice' to wash it down.
> 
> Roomettes are ok... but I was so used to meandering to the SSL as part of the daily routine on full day travel. I am agast with disappointment at hearing this.
> 
> Your info has convinced me that LD will soon be gone.


Did a random search for TE with roomette... for September. It does show traditional dining... and a high price tag. But who knows what to believe???


----------



## jimdex

IF it is indeed necessary to downgrade to one food service car, it would make much more sense to ditch the diner and keep the Sightseer Lounge, which is much more versitile.


----------



## Sidney

So the CONO,TE and CL run without SSL cars? The geniuses who made that decision probably have never ridden overnight on a long distance train,rationalize the scenery is not as good as on the other trains,and they are one overnight trains and passengers will not miss them. 

I ll be riding the TE from Bloomington to LA later today. At least I know there won't be a SSL car and flex dining will be in effect. Usually in Dallas and Fort Worth,if on time,there are Subways and other similar places I can walk to. A tuna sub from Subway beats any flex meal and I'm hoping the burrito lady is in El Paso,but the biggest disappointment is not having the SSL car to sit in as a break from my room.

Idiotic decision. Eliminating a passenger perk that probably doesn't cost that much to run. Unbelievable.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jimdex said:


> IF it is indeed necessary to downgrade to one food service car, it would make much more sense to ditch the diner and keep the Sightseer Lounge, which is much more versitile.



The CCC cars are well designed to be the single food service car. But they were designed to provide traditional dining AND cafe car service.

I thought Amtrak had to bring back the furloughed employees? (Chefs, etc.)


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> So the CONO,TE and CL run without SSL cars? The geniuses who made that decision probably have never ridden overnight on a long distance train,rationalize the scenery is not as good as on the other trains,and they are one overnight trains and passengers will not miss them.
> 
> I ll be riding the TE from Bloomington to LA later today. At least I know there won't be a SSL car and flex dining will be in effect. Usually in Dallas and Fort Worth,if on time,there are Subways and other similar places I can walk to. A tuna sub from Subway beats any flex meal and I'm hoping the burrito lady is in El Paso,but the biggest disappointment is not having the SSL car to sit in as a break from my room.
> 
> Idiotic decision. Eliminating a passenger perk that probably doesn't cost that much to run. Unbelievable.


Please do let us know of your experience... also hope that burrito lady is still at El Paso... she will be doing a great business! Will be riding the TE in October [at least that's what my ticket says... but who knows!


----------



## me_little_me

20th Century Rider said:


> Did a random search for TE with roomette... for September. It does show traditional dining... and a high price tag. But who knows what to believe???


I know what to believe and it's neither Amtrak management official statements nor their web page nor even their email replies nor calls to their agents.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I'm glad y'all like the Burrito Lady but keep in mind that burritos can get a lot fresher and more flavorful. There is some good food to be found in El Paso and Las Cruces for those with a bit of time for exploring.


----------



## me_little_me

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm glad y'all like the Burrito Lady but keep in mind that burritos can get a lot fresher and more flavorful. There is some good food to be found in El Paso and Las Cruces for those with a bit of time for exploring.


It's a comparison between flex food and burritos made fresh every day by a woman that probably makes them in her home. It's not a comparison between food available right at trainside and a good New Mexican restaurant. Take it from someone who lived in NM for 22 years and who worked in El Paso for 12 of them.


----------



## Cal

20th Century Rider said:


> Please do let us know of your experience... also hope that burrito lady is still at El Paso... she will be doing a great business! Will be riding the TE in October [at least that's what my ticket says... but who knows!


I was there on April 1st, she was there.


----------



## Sidney

Devil's Advocate said:


> I'm glad y'all like the Burrito Lady but keep in mind that burritos can get a lot fresher and more flavorful. There is some good food to be found in El Paso and Las Cruces for those with a bit of time for exploring.


I know. I'll be in El Paso just for the duration of the stop,so the Burrito lady will suffice


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Now everybody hold on just a hot moment. Read this. If you have, read it again, and follow that link to the official Amtrak release. 









Amtrak establishes priorities in wish-list reports to Congress - Trains


WASHINGTON — Amtrak has issued its two most consequential documents of the year, which show where management intends to take the company and what it would like from Congress to achieve those goals. The 77-page General and Legislative Annual Report and Fiscal Year 2022 Grant Request, available...




www.trains.com





From what I'm reading here, there's a chance that the Sunset Limited and Cardinal could finally become daily trains with the long awaited replacement of the long-distance rolling stock fleet. That... doesn't sound to me like part of an anti-LD agenda. Plus, they did very specifically say that traditional dining will be returning to the trains west of the Mississippi--albeit likely gradually. What gives? All we're going off of here is the scuttlebutt from employees and an email that may or may not be a formulaic response tot the PPC retirement. There are so many other things going on with the return of daily service, namely the dorm car issues, staffing issues, and other operational kerfuffles that will need to be untangled. It's very easy for us all to immediately assume the worst case scenario, give up all hope, and ultimately make the situation even worse by canceling bookings and lowering ridership. 

Now don't take me for a fool; when Gardner was promoted I knew there would be trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this is his doing. I've watched as this train has gotten smaller and smaller over the past year and frankly, we probably should have sounded the alarm much sooner; but I don't want to end up feeling like a fool if I find out I got all stressed and depressed over what turned out to be just a hiccup. Let's try to get to the bottom of this for real. I may head up to Gateway Transportation Center myself to try and get some solid answers, if they can provide such. I know the crew is based out of Chicago but maybe I can talk to one of them briefly while they're here? Worth a shot. May see if I can get people to sign the petition while I'm at it.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Now everybody hold on just a hot moment. Read this. If you have, read it again, and follow that link to the official Amtrak release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak establishes priorities in wish-list reports to Congress - Trains
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON — Amtrak has issued its two most consequential documents of the year, which show where management intends to take the company and what it would like from Congress to achieve those goals. The 77-page General and Legislative Annual Report and Fiscal Year 2022 Grant Request, available...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.trains.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From what I'm reading here, there's a chance that the Sunset Limited and Cardinal could finally become daily trains with the long awaited replacement of the long-distance rolling stock fleet. That... doesn't sound to me like part of an anti-LD agenda. Plus, they did very specifically say that traditional dining will be returning to the trains west of the Mississippi--albeit likely gradually. What gives? All we're going off of here is the scuttlebutt from employees and an email that may or may not be a formulaic response tot the PPC retirement. There are so many other things going on with the return of daily service, namely the dorm car issues, staffing issues, and other operational kerfuffles that will need to be untangled. It's very easy for us all to immediately assume the worst case scenario, give up all hope, and ultimately make the situation even worse by canceling bookings and lowering ridership.
> 
> Now don't take me for a fool; when Gardner was promoted I knew there would be trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if this is his doing. I've watched as this train has gotten smaller and smaller over the past year and frankly, we probably should have sounded the alarm much sooner; but I don't want to end up feeling like a fool if I find out I got all stressed and depressed over what turned out to be just a hiccup. Let's try to get to the bottom of this for real. I may head up to Gateway Transportation Center myself to try and get some solid answers, if they can provide such. I know the crew is based out of Chicago but maybe I can talk to one of them briefly while they're here? Worth a shot. May see if I can get people to sign the petition while I'm at it.


Nice! Please keep us updated on anything you find out that's accurate and reliable.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Another observation: now that I've been able to do some YouTube research, it does appear that the Capitol Limited has the same five-car consist, with the occasional additional locomotive. The CONO, however, still has an SSL in its seven-car consist as of only four days ago. 

Curious.


----------



## Cal

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Another observation: now that I've been able to do some YouTube research, it does appear that the Capitol Limited has the same five-car consist, with the occasional additional locomotive. The CONO, however, still has an SSL in its seven-car consist as of only four days ago.
> 
> Curious.


CONO never lost the SSL, or if it did, it was brief.


----------



## me_little_me

ShiningTimeStL said:


> From what I'm reading here, there's a chance that the Sunset Limited and Cardinal could finally become daily trains with the long awaited replacement of the long-distance rolling stock fleet.


I couldn't find anything about that in the Amtrak document but I may have missed it. Can you provide the page number or whatever to help me find it?

BTW, If you are old enough to remember the old Soviet 5 year plans, you will remember they seemed to be completely changed the next year because they were a pipe dream for outproducing and out-arming the West when in fact, with each new 5 year plan, they fell further behind because they were utter garbage.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Below is a pdf of the Amtrak-General-Legislative-Annual-Report-FY2022... lots of verbiage which points to the dependency on cash infusion from Congress to move forward... and therein lies the problem... Amtrak can't get the money it needs to maintain itself let alone modernize. 

Nope... I am clueless as to why they are taking off the SSC's unless they are so cash poor that they are doing anything to scrape the barrel to cut costs. It's all pretty sad.

Anyway, this is a big read and I've just scanned through it. We have a lot of talented and experienced folks on our forum... so take some time to give this a look and let us know what you think... from the collective experience of all... there's a good chance that some real answers can be gleaned from this. 

But that doesn't remove the uncertainty of funding... nor does it remove the concern for what appears to be a stumbling and out of focus management. Below is an excerpt from pg 41which describes 'enhancements in a fuzzy wuzzy way.


----------



## Sidney

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Another observation: now that I've been able to do some YouTube research, it does appear that the Capitol Limited has the same five-car consist, with the occasional additional locomotive. The CONO, however, still has an SSL in its seven-car consist as of only four days ago.
> 
> Curious.


If the CONO has SSL car,why doesn't the TE have one? It's a longer ride. Why isn't it returning? Amtrak says it is being retired. Makes no sense whatsoever and is another slap in the face for passengers. I boarded the TE about two hours ago. I asked my attendant about the lack of the SSL and the apparent non return of traditional dining. He said trad dining will return and was clueless as to why the SSL car was removed.


----------



## jis

Sidney said:


> If the CONO has SSL car,why doesn't the TE have one? It's a longer ride. Why isn't it returning? Amtrak says it is being retired. Makes no sense whatsoever and is another slap in the face for passengers. I boarded the TE about two hours ago. I asked my attendant about the lack of the SSL and the apparent non return of traditional dining. He said trad dining will return and was clueless as to why the SSL car was removed.


You seriously think you will be able to shame Amtrak into doing something by pointing out they are illogical. Frankly I am now developing grave doubts about your sanity.


----------



## jiml

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Another observation: now that I've been able to do some YouTube research, it does appear that the Capitol Limited has the same five-car consist, with the occasional additional locomotive. The CONO, however, still has an SSL in its seven-car consist as of only four days ago.
> 
> Curious.


Is there any chance the Capitol and TE are sharing consists? The Capitol arriving in Chicago becomes that day's outbound Eagle and vice-versa. Just a thought.


----------



## zephyr17

jis said:


> You seriously think you will be able to shame Amtrak into doing something by pointing out they are illogical. Frankly I am now developing grave doubts about your sanity.


Whether an action is logical or illogical depends entirely on the objective. If the objective is to grow ridership through good customer experience then the action is illogical.

Now fill in the blanks.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> You seriously think you will be able to shame Amtrak into doing something by pointing out they are illogical. Frankly I am now developing grave doubts about your sanity.


Amtrak definitely has a reliability problem... management seems to be a tangle of confusion... no way to run a railroad!

They are derailed and need to get back on the track!!!


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

I don't think griping and constantly reiterating the same criticisms of railroad management is going to get us any further with this. Help me out, guys. Let's try to connect some dots. When did this start? When was the last time the SSL was on the TE and on the CL? When did SSLs start showing up as axle count cars on midwest trains? I have a hunch. If the SSLs disappeared in March, it may have something to do with the coming end of triweekly service. 

Also, does the CL also have a CCC? If not, then I suppose that means no café service for coach passengers...? Not good.


----------



## Cal

jiml said:


> Is there any chance the Capitol and TE are sharing consists? The Capitol arriving in Chicago becomes that day's outbound Eagle and vice-versa. Just a thought.


Right now? No, maybe pre-covid. Although didn't the CONO always run without a baggage car?


----------



## Cal

ShiningTimeStL said:


> I don't think griping and constantly reiterating the same criticisms of railroad management is going to get us any further with this. Help me out, guys. Let's try to connect some dots. When did this start? When was the last time the SSL was on the TE and on the CL? When did SSLs start showing up as axle count cars on midwest trains? I have a hunch. If the SSLs disappeared in March, it may have something to do with the coming end of triweekly service.
> 
> Also, does the CL also have a CCC? If not, then I suppose that means no café service for coach passengers...? Not good.


CL does have a CCC I think


----------



## 20th Century Rider

ShiningTimeStL said:


> I don't think griping and constantly reiterating the same criticisms of railroad management is going to get us any further with this. Help me out, guys. Let's try to connect some dots. When did this start? When was the last time the SSL was on the TE and on the CL? When did SSLs start showing up as axle count cars on midwest trains? I have a hunch. If the SSLs disappeared in March, it may have something to do with the coming end of triweekly service.
> 
> Also, does the CL also have a CCC? If not, then I suppose that means no café service for coach passengers...? Not good.


The most practical and logical way to find out about the reduction of SSL cutbacks is to find the specific individual or 'administrative group' who made that decision. Then find a way to approach them for an answer as to why!

But the difficulty is to find out the 'who' of decision making. 

To get answers to actions... go to the source... which may be easier said than done!


----------



## zephyr17

Capitol has been running a Diner/Lounge (the car type actually used with the long defunct Cross Country Cafe branding) for years. When I rode it a few years ago, and what I understand was the standard practice, is the lounge end of the diner provided cage service. The Diner/Lounge was coupled to the Sightseer, which provided lounge space with the downstairs service area closed and not staffed.

I will connect one set of dots. They had enough Sightseers to run them on the Capitol, the CONO and the Eagle last year under daily schedules, and I don't think they've put any the ground since.


----------



## PaTrainFan

Perhaps many of you saw this already, but the following was in today's RPA Weekly Hotline:

‘Equipment Shortage’ Temporarily Removes Sightseer Lounge From Texas Eagle, Capitol Limited

Rail Passengers has confirmed with Amtrak that “equipment shortage in this car type” is forcing the railroad to drop the Sightseer Lounge -- just temporarily -- from the Texas Eagle between San Antonio and Chicago, as well as from the Capitol Limited.

“While temporary, we do not yet have a defined timeline for increasing Sightseer Lounge availability, and have placed the other five Western LD routes at a higher priority for deploying these popular cars,” Larry Chestler, the VP in charge of the Long-Distance business unit, told Rail Passengers’ CEO, Jim Mathews. “We also are maintaining the Sightseer Lounge on the City of New Orleans due to our long-standing axle count requirements in Illinois.”

Between Chicago and San Antonio, the Eagle will only have a single food-service car -- the Cross Country Cafe. When the Eagle merges on to the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and Los Angeles, it will have a Sightseer Lounge car.

Chestler emphasized that these are temporary moves driven by equipment shortages that arose due to coronavirus contingencies. While there’s no target date for restoration, the intent is to restore these cars once it’s possible -- just as Amtrak is doing with the traditional dining, which was dropped last year from Western trains in favor of the Contemporary Dining model as a response to Covid pandemic concerns and is now set to return.

The railroad is still working out the timing on restoring full dining on the Western trains as they work to recall and requalify crews, but the target is now June. Once traditional dining returns to the Western trains, the Eagle’s traditional dining will also be restored between San Antonio and Los Angeles. The contemporary/flexible dining will remain in place, for now, between Chicago and San Antonio, but once the traditional dining is brought back on Western trains in June Amtrak management tells Rail Passengers’ Mathews that they will begin work on “improvements to dining services on other [long-distance] routes, including the Eagle.”

______________________________
The equipment shortage excuse is spurious. What happened between the start of cutbacks due to the pandemic and now? Surely no additional wrecks.


----------



## zephyr17

Ah, well look on the bright side. Whatever excuse they're making as CYA, they're committing the return of the Sightseer. In the indefinite, unspecified future.

As to the car shortage blamed directly on "coronavirus contingencies", what happened? Did the cars themselves catch COVID-19 and now they're getting better?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

PaTrainFan said:


> Perhaps many of you saw this already, but the following was in today's RPA Weekly Hotline:
> 
> ‘Equipment Shortage’ Temporarily Removes Sightseer Lounge From Texas Eagle, Capitol Limited
> 
> Rail Passengers has confirmed with Amtrak that “equipment shortage in this car type” is forcing the railroad to drop the Sightseer Lounge -- just temporarily -- from the Texas Eagle between San Antonio and Chicago, as well as from the Capitol Limited.
> 
> “While temporary, we do not yet have a defined timeline for increasing Sightseer Lounge availability, and have placed the other five Western LD routes at a higher priority for deploying these popular cars,” Larry Chestler, the VP in charge of the Long-Distance business unit, told Rail Passengers’ CEO, Jim Mathews. “We also are maintaining the Sightseer Lounge on the City of New Orleans due to our long-standing axle count requirements in Illinois.”
> 
> Between Chicago and San Antonio, the Eagle will only have a single food-service car -- the Cross Country Cafe. When the Eagle merges on to the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and Los Angeles, it will have a Sightseer Lounge car.
> 
> Chestler emphasized that these are temporary moves driven by equipment shortages that arose due to coronavirus contingencies. While there’s no target date for restoration, the intent is to restore these cars once it’s possible -- just as Amtrak is doing with the traditional dining, which was dropped last year from Western trains in favor of the Contemporary Dining model as a response to Covid pandemic concerns and is now set to return.
> 
> The railroad is still working out the timing on restoring full dining on the Western trains as they work to recall and requalify crews, but the target is now June. Once traditional dining returns to the Western trains, the Eagle’s traditional dining will also be restored between San Antonio and Los Angeles. The contemporary/flexible dining will remain in place, for now, between Chicago and San Antonio, but once the traditional dining is brought back on Western trains in June Amtrak management tells Rail Passengers’ Mathews that they will begin work on “improvements to dining services on other [long-distance] routes, including the Eagle.”
> 
> ______________________________
> The equipment shortage excuse is spurious. What happened between the start of cutbacks due to the pandemic and now? Surely no additional wrecks.


But therein lies the problem... no one knows whats happening and no one knows the cause of these changes!

Am I right?

Does anyone have the actual defined answer for the elimination of the SSC's???

We're all just guessing... some one tell me I'm wrong!


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

It makes absolutely no sense but then again not much else has recently either. I hope the lounges get better soon.


----------



## zephyr17

Whatever the real reason is, they'll never admit it.

Unless it is something the I.G. gets interested in.


----------



## lordsigma

The reality is probably they parked a lot of equipment during tri weekly that needs work and did nothing to any of it. So some of it is probably not yet railroad worthy. Trying to look at this in a glass half full attitude that they at least addressed it. If there is indeed a shortage - it certainly made sense to prioritize the other 5 western routes - which are essentially the five most scenic routes in the system.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Did they lay off maintenance personnel? Is there deferred maintenance that needs to be done? Probably no to both but it’s at least plausible

RPA is getting good at duplicating Amtrak double talk as well. From today’s hotline:

“Once traditional dining returns to the Western trains, the Eagle’s traditional dining will also be restored between San Antonio and Los Angeles.” 

So in other words the Sunset Limited will get traditional dining back but not the Eagle. 421/422 or not that’s the Sunset Limited give me a break .


----------



## SanDiegan

PaTrainFan said:


> Perhaps many of you saw this already, but the following was in today's RPA Weekly Hotline:
> 
> ‘Equipment Shortage’ Temporarily Removes Sightseer Lounge From Texas Eagle, Capitol Limited
> 
> Rail Passengers has confirmed with Amtrak that “equipment shortage in this car type” is forcing the railroad to drop the Sightseer Lounge -- just temporarily -- from the Texas Eagle between San Antonio and Chicago, as well as from the Capitol Limited.
> 
> “While temporary, we do not yet have a defined timeline for increasing Sightseer Lounge availability, and have placed the other five Western LD routes at a higher priority for deploying these popular cars,” Larry Chestler, the VP in charge of the Long-Distance business unit, told Rail Passengers’ CEO, Jim Mathews. “We also are maintaining the Sightseer Lounge on the City of New Orleans due to our long-standing axle count requirements in Illinois.”
> 
> Between Chicago and San Antonio, the Eagle will only have a single food-service car -- the Cross Country Cafe. When the Eagle merges on to the Sunset Limited between San Antonio and Los Angeles, it will have a Sightseer Lounge car.
> 
> Chestler emphasized that these are temporary moves driven by equipment shortages that arose due to coronavirus contingencies. While there’s no target date for restoration, the intent is to restore these cars once it’s possible -- just as Amtrak is doing with the traditional dining, which was dropped last year from Western trains in favor of the Contemporary Dining model as a response to Covid pandemic concerns and is now set to return.
> 
> The railroad is still working out the timing on restoring full dining on the Western trains as they work to recall and requalify crews, but the target is now June. Once traditional dining returns to the Western trains, the Eagle’s traditional dining will also be restored between San Antonio and Los Angeles. The contemporary/flexible dining will remain in place, for now, between Chicago and San Antonio, but once the traditional dining is brought back on Western trains in June Amtrak management tells Rail Passengers’ Mathews that they will begin work on “improvements to dining services on other [long-distance] routes, including the Eagle.”
> 
> ______________________________
> The equipment shortage excuse is spurious. What happened between the start of cutbacks due to the pandemic and now? Surely no additional wrecks.



This ....


----------



## jruff001

lordsigma said:


> The reality is probably they parked a lot of equipment during tri weekly that needs work and did nothing to any of it. So some of it is probably not yet railroad worthy. Trying to look at this in a glass half full attitude that they at least addressed it. If there is indeed a shortage - it certainly made sense to prioritize the other 5 western routes - which are essentially the five most scenic routes in the system.


Agreed. But "reality" is underappreciated around here.


----------



## jruff001

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Did they lay off maintenance personnel? Is there deferred maintenance that needs to be done? Probably no to both but it’s at least plausible


Really? You don't think Amtrak has done any layoffs during Covid?


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Really? You don't think Amtrak has done any layoffs during Covid?



They shouldn’t have... wasn’t all that money given to them so they wouldn’t need to?


----------



## west point

Think about it. There is a shortage of roadworthy SSLs train sets now with 3 day a week service. What happens when the Amtrak service returns to full 7 day a week ? Hope I am wrong but will not be surprised if some LD trains are cancelled for lack of equipment before full summer. Or maybe many LD trains will become 1 loco and 4 - 5 cars3


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> They shouldn’t have... wasn’t all that money given to them so they wouldn’t need to?


Hey Joe! Where' ya going with all the money??? I don't know of a better answer for that question... now twang them strings!


----------



## Cal

They've been using them on at least one Surfliner consist, and some Illinois services.


----------



## lordsigma

west point said:


> Think about it. There is a shortage of roadworthy SSLs train sets now with 3 day a week service. What happens when the Amtrak service returns to full 7 day a week ? Hope I am wrong but will not be surprised if some LD trains are cancelled for lack of equipment before full summer. Or maybe many LD trains will become 1 loco and 4 - 5 cars3


I interpreted it more that they've prioritized the SSLs to support the return to daily service of the 5 mentioned routes (as well as the CONO with the axle count requirements) and that the shortage prevents SSLs from also being on the TE and CL daily.


----------



## jis

ShiningTimeStL said:


> I don't think griping and constantly reiterating the same criticisms of railroad management is going to get us any further with this. Help me out, guys. Let's try to connect some dots. When did this start? When was the last time the SSL was on the TE and on the CL? When did SSLs start showing up as axle count cars on midwest trains? I have a hunch. If the SSLs disappeared in March, it may have something to do with the coming end of triweekly service.
> 
> Also, does the CL also have a CCC? If not, then I suppose that means no café service for coach passengers...? Not good.


CL has had a CCC for for what seems like at least half a dozen years now.

The CCC plan was initially put together in the Boardman era, and since then has been an on again - off again thing. There is very little that is new here, including the periodic convulsions and anger and frustration. The cycle goes on with no one including RPA seemingly able to do anything about it.

Oddly enough, they took an additional two SSLs out of service within the last three or so years (in addition to the ones that they sold off, including theone with a tree growing in it!), and now are surprised that they have equipment shortage? To me there is more to it than what RPA is parroting from Amtrak. I wish RPA stopped being an Amtrak shill and actually did further investigating on its own on the side a bit.


----------



## Barb Stout

zephyr17 said:


> Capitol has been running a Diner/Lounge (the car type actually used with the long defunct Cross Country Cafe branding) for years. When I rode it a few years ago, and what I understand was the standard practice, is the lounge end of the diner provided cage service. The Diner/Lounge was coupled to the Sightseer, which provided lounge space with the downstairs service area closed and not staffed.
> 
> I will connect one set of dots. They had enough Sightseers to run them on the Capitol, the CONO and the Eagle last year under daily schedules, and I don't think they've put any the ground since.


What does cage service mean in this context? I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with my Amazon parrot even though that's what Google told me.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

PaTrainFan said:


> Do anyone think RPA cares about this issue? I have found little vaue to being a member in recent years. Well, maybe the 10% discount is a bit of an incentive.



Per the RPA interview with the LD VP



> Chestler emphasized that these are temporary moves driven by equipment shortages that arose due to coronavirus contingencies. While there’s no target date for restoration, the intent is to restore these cars once it’s possible



So the selling of three repairs need superliner lounge cars had nothing to do with it? Got to maintain a 80% fleet available and when you sell three wreck cars you can justify pulling more cars off the road?

Yes, it’s a conspiracy theory statement, but use the pandemic as a excuse is growing old.


----------



## joelkfla

Barb Stout said:


> What does cage service mean in this context? I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with my Amazon parrot even though that's what Google told me.


 I think it was a mistype of *café*.


----------



## daybeers

zephyr17 said:


> Ah, well look on the bright side. Whatever excuse they're making as CYA, they're committing the return of the Sightseer. In the indefinite, unspecified future.


Isn’t that what they said about Sunset Limited East?


----------



## toddinde

Please keep the pressure up. RPA has reported that Amtrak is saying the SSL on the Texas Eagle will be returned, but with no timeline. They also say the Texas Eagle won’t get the traditional dining, but the enhanced dining of the eastern trains which has yet to be developed. Take this info for what it’s worth. There is a scenario in Amtrak’s daily Sunset plan that would run the Texas Eagle daily from Chicago to LA with a daily connecting train from NOLA to San Antonio. The daily Sunset project is very much alive, and with pressure on Congress, we can get a daily Cardinal and Sunset. I think that would help the Eagle immensely. Now is the time to push for these things. We’ve got a good chance.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

jis said:


> I would just point out that for the last fifty years several attempts (admittedly some would say not serious, but as required by legislation) have been made to hand over select long distance trains to private enterprise and there have been no takers.



Plenty of interest just no takers. So many issues both of legal, equipment, liability that needs to be address first. It could be done just not how it has been addressed in the past.


----------



## zephyr17

Barb Stout said:


> What does cage service mean in this context? I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with my Amazon parrot even though that's what Google told me.


Damn spellcheck. Meant lounge service.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

toddinde said:


> Please keep the pressure up. RPA has reported that Amtrak is saying the SSL on the Texas Eagle will be returned, but with no timeline. They also say the Texas Eagle won’t get the traditional dining, but the enhanced dining of the eastern trains which has yet to be developed. Take this info for what it’s worth. There is a scenario in Amtrak’s daily Sunset plan that would run the Texas Eagle daily from Chicago to LA with a daily connecting train from NOLA to San Antonio. The daily Sunset project is very much alive, and with pressure on Congress, we can get a daily Cardinal and Sunset. I think that would help the Eagle immensely. Now is the time to push for these things. We’ve got a good chance.


Oh please! Please! Bring back the SSC and full dining to the TE before my journey next October! But I'm thinking things could go the other way... they will cut something else. But, what's left to cut???

Oh - I got the railroad blues! Nobody understands that better than Woody Guthrie!


----------



## Sidney

On the TE now. Sure miss the SSL car. You can sit in the diner during your meal. If you want to linger,I'm pretty sure no one will bother you,unless all the tables are taken. There are two sleeper cars,roomettes are pretty full and several empty bedrooms,but this is before Dal and FTW. The flex menu is missing the shrimp in lobster sauce. I think this is the menu used on the Eastern trains,another indication full service dining may be history.

Still I am enjoying the trip,as I always do. Looking forward to the Sunset portion tomorrow when we will have a sightseer car.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> On the TE now. Sure miss the SSL car. You can sit in the diner during your meal. If you want to linger,I'm pretty sure no one will bother you,unless all the tables are taken. There are two sleeper cars,roomettes are pretty full and several empty bedrooms,but this is before Dal and FTW. The flex menu is missing the shrimp in lobster sauce. I think this is the menu used on the Eastern trains,another indication full service dining may be history.
> 
> Still I am enjoying the trip,as I always do. Looking forward to the Sunset portion tomorrow when we will have a sightseer car.


The garlic and herb cod got decent reviews from blogger Jeb Brooks. Did they have that???


----------



## jiml

toddinde said:


> There is a scenario in Amtrak’s daily Sunset plan that would run the Texas Eagle daily from Chicago to LA with a daily connecting train from NOLA to San Antonio.


Yes, people have been advocating for exactly that for some time independent of these more recent events - _including in previous AU threads._ If it came to fruition the Eagle might get its lounge back at the expense of the New Orleans - San Antonio leg, which would not be a bad thing. A whole new discussion could probably be started on NOL-SAS... extension of the Crescent or CONO or a separate train? Part of new Gulf Coast service? Lots of possibilities.


----------



## Sidney

No. Like I said,I think is the flex menu for the Eastern trains which has a more limited menu. Why,I don't know. Just had the pasta and meatballs. Poor. The roll wasn't even warm. Hopefully things will be a bit better on the Sunset tomorrow. We have a nice layover in Fort Worth. There is a Subway close to the station. You would think after almost three years of flexible dining there would be some improvements.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> No. Like I said,I think is the flex menu for the Eastern trains which has a more limited menu. Why,I don't know. Just had the pasta and meatballs. Poor. The roll wasn't even warm. Hopefully things will be a bit better on the Sunset tomorrow. We have a nice layover in Fort Worth. There is a Subway close to the station. You would think after almost three years of flexible dining there would be some improvements.


Improvements? Amtrak is known for it's consistent deterioration of service. It's always downhill and they haven't reached the bottom yet! BTW there's a 'Cindi's New York Deli right next to Subway. I've clipped on a PDF of the menu below. Not sure if you can access it on your device... but you may want to drop in there and check it out!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> No. Like I said,I think is the flex menu for the Eastern trains which has a more limited menu. Why,I don't know. Just had the pasta and meatballs. Poor. The roll wasn't even warm. Hopefully things will be a bit better on the Sunset tomorrow. We have a nice layover in Fort Worth. There is a Subway close to the station. You would think after almost three years of flexible dining there would be some improvements.


Here's a map of the station area with restaurants nearby. The Texas Spice looks 'spicy' and 'pricy.'


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> Improvements? Amtrak is known for it's consistent deterioration of service. It's always downhill and they haven't reached the bottom yet! BTW there's a 'Cindi's New York Deli right next to Subway. I've clipped on a PDF of the menu below. Not sure if you can access it on your device... but you may want to drop in there and check it out!


Thanks. I will check it out. We just left Dallas. Kind of sad when food is included in your fare and you have to go elsewhere and pay for it. Traditional dining can't return soon enough.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Thanks. I will check it out. We just left Dallas. Kind of sad when food is included in your fare and you have to go elsewhere and pay for it. Traditional dining can't return soon enough.


We all feel that way about Amtrak's food disaster... like... everyone at AU is upset with it so know you're not alone. Good luck with finding edible food and let us know how you're doing!


----------



## Rasputin

Sidney said:


> Just had the pasta and meatballs. Poor. The roll wasn't even warm.


I suppose, Sidney, that it just never occurred to you to place your roll in the sun for 5 or 10 minutes so it would warm up. Honestly some people expect Amtrak to do everything!

(P.S. Sidney, this is a sarcastic comment and I hope you have a nice trip.)


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> We all feel that way about Amtrak's food disaster... like... everyone at AU is upset with it so know you're not alone. Good luck with finding edible food and let us know how you're doing!


Sadly,we lost a bit of time after Dallas and we were in FTW for 20 minutes,not enough time to head out. On the plus side,I have three little bottles of wine and a bag of popcorn to hold me until the next stellar meal. Those little bottles of wine cost $8. I bought a four pack for $7;at my local grocery last week.


----------



## me_little_me

PaTrainFan said:


> “While temporary, we do not yet have a defined timeline for increasing Sightseer Lounge availability, and have placed the other five Western LD routes at a higher priority for deploying these popular cars,” Larry Chestler, the VP in charge of the Long-Distance business unit, told Rail Passengers’ CEO, Jim Mathews. “We also are maintaining the Sightseer Lounge on the City of New Orleans due to our long-standing axle count requirements in Illinois.”


Of course, Mr. Chester made that a public announcement at the time they planned to remove the SSL, didn't he? NOT! Sleazy executives try to hide things then open up only when people make a big stink.

They have no morals, no ethics, no customer interest, do they?

Hey, Mr. Chester! The stock in Amtrak and all your equipment and "good will" value are owned by the federal government, which means it is owned by the people of the United States and as stockholders, we are owed honesty and openness.
/S/ Marshall Dillon


----------



## jis

20th Century Rider said:


> Here's a map of the station area with restaurants nearby. The Texas Spice looks 'spicy' and 'pricy.'
> View attachment 22547


That is a map of Dallas Amtrak Station. Not of Fort Worth. I hope that is clear to all concerned.

BTW, I have had Breakfast at that NY Deli many times. It is quite good, and it is a short walk from the West End hotels where I usually stay, unless I have enough points to splurge at the Hyatt Regency across from the station.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> Sadly,we lost a bit of time after Dallas and we were in FTW for 20 minutes,not enough time to head out. On the plus side,I have three little bottles of wine and a bag of popcorn to hold me until the next stellar meal. Those little bottles of wine cost $8. I bought a four pack for $7;at my local grocery last week.


I thought they always stayed at FTW 50 minutes. I was on a five hour late TE in late March and we stayed at FTW for 50 minutes....

Edit: Just checked, we stayed 30.


----------



## ShiningTimeStL

Well, my hunches turned out more or less correct it seems, hahaha. Lots of questions remaining, though. We have to continue praying that an infrastructure bill and/or reauthorization bill passes with "transformational" funding for new equipment that doesn't just get eaten up by corridor-vision. The prospect of a daily Sunset and Cardinal gives me lots of hope, but the dining situation really concerns me. I suppose we might expect this "enhanced dining" on the Coast Starlight at some point as well, as it's a one-night train.


----------



## Sidney

Cal said:


> I thought they always stayed at FTW 50 minutes. I was on a five hour late TE in late March and we stayed at FTW for 50 minutes....
> 
> Edit: Just checked, we stayed 30.


Departure on the app was 20 minutes after we arrived. Didn't want to risk walking away from the platform


----------



## jis

ShiningTimeStL said:


> Well, my hunches turned out more or less correct it seems, hahaha. Lots of questions remaining, though. We have to continue praying that an infrastructure bill and/or reauthorization bill passes with "transformational" funding for new equipment that doesn't just get eaten up by corridor-vision. The prospect of a daily Sunset and Cardinal gives me lots of hope, but the dining situation really concerns me. I suppose we might expect this "enhanced dining" on the Coast Starlight at some point as well, as it's a one-night train.


Reauthorization Bills don’t have any actual funding appropriation. They only have expressions of intent to appropriate, which they may or may not actually follow through on.


----------



## Sidney

My Westward journey continues on the TE. We got into SAS on time with an over five and a half hour layover,gave me plenty of time to explore Riverwalk and take one of those mini cruises.

Up at 5:30 and now "enjoying" a wonderful Jimmy Dean breakfast sandwich that makes an Egg McMuffin seem like a gourmet meal. So good to see the SSL car again. The flex menu has the cod and shrimp in lobster sauce. The Texas Eagle was using the Eastern menu which makes me think they are not going back to traditional dining.

Best time of day on a train..early in the morning and the whole day is ahead. SSL car visits and if on time a chance to walk in Alpine and El Paso and check out the Burrito lady. This is the only LD train I don't mind being late. That 5AM,even earlier arrival time into LA is tough.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> That is a map od Dallas Amtrak Station. Not of Fort Worth. I hope that is clear to all concerned.
> 
> BTW, I have had Breakfast at that NY Deli many times. It is quite good, and it is a short walk from the West End hotels where I usually stay, unless I have enough points to splurge at the Hyatt Regency across from the station.


My mistake. But now I know that there is a Subway restaurant right at the FW station... and while their sandwiches have gone downhill recently, it's certainly vastly better than the disgusting flex puddle meals... and may try them out if 'edible dining' is permanently gone from the TE.




Additionally, here is some info on how long that Subway Sandwich will keep... the dryer the sandwich will last a little longer but one shouldn't risk getting sick on the train! Eat it right away!





__





How Long Can A Sandwich Be Left Out Before It Becomes Unsafe To Eat?


Find out how long a sandwich can sit out of the fridge before it becomes unsafe to eat.




www.stilltasty.com


----------



## tonys96

We will NOT ride the Eagle without a SSL. Nor without regular dining. Will take SWA and board elsewhere if necessary.
I always get Subway without dressing. Lasts up to an hour.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

bms said:


> Nobody asked for Flexible Dining. "Millenial" was just a marketing buzzword that meant nothing.





Bob Dylan said:


> One of Amtraks stupider decisions when they " inproved" AGR several years ago!





Oreius said:


> Pathetic for a long-distance train.


Aw c'mon everybody... stop complaining about Amtrak management; their dedicated selfless and highly focused efforts have made Americas passenger railroad the best in the world! Now eat your flex meal or you won't get your brownie!


----------



## Ferroequinologist

MaisieM said:


> Don't apologise! Our trip on the CZ in 2019 was one of our best travel experiences ever. As for trains over here in the UK. If you've never stood at Westbury atation at 2100 on a wet Sunday, you haven't experienced misery.



I think 'standard' class in the UK is very uncomfortable. Cramped and limited storage space. First is another matter though minimal difference on regional trains - just a small section of a coach. There are often delays and cancellations. There is frequent service on many lines but some like Greater Anglia are dreadful. As far as I know there is only one dining car service left in the UK, run by Great Western.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Ferroequinologist said:


> I think 'standard' class in the UK is very uncomfortable. Cramped and limited storage space. First is another matter though minimal difference on regional trains - just a small section of a coach. There are often delays and cancellations. There is frequent service on many lines but some like Greater Anglia are dreadful. As far as I know there is only one dining car service left in the UK, run by Great Western.


Wow! Big changes in Great Britian since I last was there decades ago... but according to the map... all lines still run. It looks like all information is on one site: Looks like they still have catering although it may have changed from when there were restaurant cars...





__





National Rail Enquiries - Catering Facilities


The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.




www.nationalrail.co.uk


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> Aw c'mon everybody... stop complaining about Amtrak management; their dedicated selfless and highly focused efforts have made Americas passenger railroad the best in the world! Now eat your flex meal or you won't get your brownie!
> 
> View attachment 22573
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22574


The photo of that fine meal will entice me to pay big bucks for a sleeper. Don't forget the blondie!,


----------



## Sidney

20th Century Rider said:


> Aw c'mon everybody... stop complaining about Amtrak management; their dedicated selfless and highly focused efforts have made Americas passenger railroad the best in the world! Now eat your flex meal or you won't get your brownie!
> 
> View attachment 22573
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 22574





20th Century Rider said:


> The garlic and herb cod got decent reviews from blogger Jeb Brooks. Did they have that???


Just had the cod for lunch. Bland. Not much different than any flex meal I've had. It is amazing how inferior flex food is to traditional dining. Night and day. I have another round of wine and popcorn after the El Paso stop. One more flex dinner. Hopefully,that will be it.


----------



## Rasputin

I understand that we are promised the return of traditional dining on some western long distance trains. The Amtrak website continues to show menus for traditional dining (including a Texas Eagle traditional dining menu which I understand is not going to happen).

Despite appearances and promises I have a concern that Amtrak's definition of traditional dining post-pandemic might not be the same as the pre-pandemic traditional dining that we have experienced.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Sidney said:


> Just had the cod for lunch. Bland. Not much different than any flex meal I've had. It is amazing how inferior flex food is to traditional dining. Night and day. I have another round of wine and popcorn after the El Paso stop. One more flex dinner. Hopefully,that will be it.


Flex meals are made cheaply and in mass... with many artificial 'extenders' and 'taste enhancers.' Very little real food... and nothing which resembles 'fresh.' Flex food has no texture and no taste... both quantity and quality are at rock bottom "0" I am personally sorry for you and every other rail fan who loves the rails, overnight train travel, and the passing landscape... to be treated with such disrespect and disregard.

That you should have to buy your own food after 'forking over' hundreds of $$$ for an overpriced fare which is supposed to include meals ... is just downright abusive. 

Everyone... everyone... everyone... frowns when they sit down to a flex meal... most of which is thrown into the trash because it simply isn't edible.

What is the most effective way to show our extraordinary disappointment and upset at customer service??? We have written to our legislators and to the Amtrak board.... and have written many editorials. No one is listening.

All this stuff about the government being 'for the people?' We all know how that goes.

I have a big circle America trip coming up in October... but I'm thinking this will be the last if this dire regressive customer service trend continues. When all the passengers have finally had enough and simply stop coming, I guess Amtrak will focus on high population density corridors. And just move on.

Tracks no longer lead to 'everywhere' as they once did.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thank you for been part of our plan.

See Congress members nobody rides the trains, so that why we eliminate the LD trains.

Conspiracy theory or Operational Plan?


----------



## Ferroequinologist

20th Century Rider said:


> Wow! Big changes in Great Britian since I last was there decades ago... but according to the map... all lines still run. It looks like all information is on one site: Looks like they still have catering although it may have changed from when there were restaurant cars...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> National Rail Enquiries - Catering Facilities
> 
> 
> The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalrail.co.uk



The Thatcher government closed some services but a couple may have been restored. There is food service at your seat in First Class - usually something cooked or at least a cold plate. I remember in the 1970s when there were two restaurant cars on many of the Birmingham-London trains, one for First and another for Second. Now absolutely none. Now there is an expensive restaurant car service only on the Great Western to Plymouth-Penzance.


----------



## Sidney

Remember when meals on a long distance train were something to look forward to? Delicious made to order food and cheesecake for dessert. I would always bring the dessert back to my room and get a cup of coffee.

I have been on the Texas Eagle/Sunset since Friday and I can report the flex meals are as bad as ever. To that ultra microwaved Jimmy Dean sandwich to the pasta and Cod I had for lunch today,I felt a bit queasy after every meal. 

There still is hope that come July 1 we can enjoy real food again. I feel sorry for the Eastern trains and CONO passengers. They deserve better. 

As far as the TE and the lack of a SSL car and the possible continuation of flex dining and the $250 plus increase in fares this might be my last TE trip,a route I have enjoyed for decades.

Some people are fine with this abysmal flexible dining. More power to them. The blame goes to Mica and Anderson for foisting this crap upon us. Biggest blunder in Amtrak history.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Food service has been a problem for years. The way we eat and what we eat is always changing. Remember when you got your first microwave? Convection ovens? Induction range? It’s just not what we eat, but how we cook it too.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> Just had the cod for lunch. Bland. Not much different than any flex meal I've had. It is amazing how inferior flex food is to traditional dining. Night and day. I have another round of wine and popcorn after the El Paso stop. One more flex dinner. Hopefully,that will be it.


Why don;t you get uber eats at Tuscon? It's 50 minutes


----------



## Sidney

Great idea. Unless we lose time between Deming and Tucson we'll be there for 40 minutes. After three days,I can't take another flex meal.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> Great idea. Unless we lose time between Deming and Tucson we'll be there for 40 minutes. After three days,I can't take another flex meal.




This is what we got, can't remember the place. But it was good


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Oh My! It's a sad day when the AU forum turns helping its traveling members tips for food survival because the stuff on Amtrak is so really disgusting! I had some fun with graphics to add my few cents to the chorus of anger and upset ...

Hmmm.... charging big bucks for food... then throwing this nonsense to the passengers! Put this on a post card and mail to your congress representative!!!


----------



## west point

Yes food heated in convection ovens as a general rule are much better than nuking.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> Everyone... everyone... everyone... frowns when they sit down to a flex meal... most of which is thrown into the trash because it simply isn't edible.


Sorry but that statement is a massive exaggeration that simply isn’t true. Most people if they compared flexible dining to traditional dining would agree with you that it’s inferior (including me) - but that doesn’t mean everyone thinks it’s inedible and trash can worthy. I think to a lot of people it’s simply analogous to what’s served on first class flights - not gourmet restaurant food but better than nothing. Most people aren’t riding the train for the food - especially in the east. I understand and respect that some people think it’s awful especially those more conscious about ingredients and sodium and things like that or those with dietary restrictions, but the idea that there’s this mass migration to the trash can along with “never agains” every meal seating simply isn’t true, or at least I haven’t experienced it yet. 

Do I think improvements are in order? Absolutely - and trying to be optimistic that they are coming. Amtrak seems to get that the flex meals have negatively effected customer satisfaction scores - especially on the two nighters.


----------



## Sidney

The Silver trains get many older people riding and decent food has always been an important part of a train journey. Sorry,but the food they are serving on a full two day and one night trip is not decent and is an insult to people paying $500 and a lot more for their trip. 

Flex dining was introduced in October 2019,before the pandemic. I really hope traditional dining returns to the Eastern trains. I am in the last hour of a trip on the Texas Eagle,starting Friday night. It's now Monday morning and I never want to eat a "flex" meal again.

I still don't understand why people in sleepers can't substitute food from the cafe car. Why? Eating those sodium laded bland reheated meals is tough. The burrito lady was in El Paso. That was the best food I had on my journey. The Jersey Mikes sub I got in Chicago before boarding beat anything I ate on the train.

Yes,what Amtrak is serving is substandard and the sooner flex dining is replaced,the better. Passengers paying sky high prices for sleepers deserve decent food.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

lordsigma said:


> I think to a lot of people it’s simply analogous to what’s served on first class flights - not gourmet restaurant food but better than nothing.



Not to me, someone who regularly travels first class domestic and used to travel regularly in Amtrak sleeper.

Let me know who these “a lot of people” are.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> Sorry but that statement is a massive exaggeration that simply isn’t true. Most people if they compared flexible dining to traditional dining would agree with you that it’s inferior (including me) - but that doesn’t mean everyone thinks it’s inedible and trash can worthy. I think to a lot of people it’s simply analogous to what’s served on first class flights - not gourmet restaurant food but better than nothing. Most people aren’t riding the train for the food - especially in the east. I understand and respect that some people think it’s awful especially those more conscious about ingredients and sodium and things like that or those with dietary restrictions, but the idea that there’s this mass migration to the trash can along with “never agains” every meal seating simply isn’t true, or at least I haven’t experienced it yet.
> 
> Do I think improvements are in order? Absolutely - and trying to be optimistic that they are coming. Amtrak seems to get that the flex meals have negatively effected customer satisfaction scores - especially on the two nighters.


The overwhelming consensus of people pushing away this food has been to the opposite of what you are saying. In my own personal experiences with it on the eastern runs two years ago, folks would take a few bites then throw it in the trash; several reporting bloggers have done the same. I had the shrimp and sausage meal and it tasted rancid... that did it for me. Into the trash it went. I took a bite out of the 'hockey puck' breakfast sandwich... and that went into the trash also. The 'wine braised beef' floating around in broth with the polenta dissolving in it as well... was also found to be disgusting... and I pitched that as well.

I do respect your point of view and I hope you respect mine as well. How many AU'er are in anyway positive about flex dining???

And I poignantly disagree that flex food in any way resembles first class dining in the air... or even coach class meals on airlines that serve it. I've had that too... and there's no comparison.

I also feel that food becomes important when one is on the train for three days and two nights as with the CZ... and even longer on the TE.

There is also the issue of money paid and services received. Flex food is comparable with frozen meals purchased in the dollar stores... flex food has no taste, no texture, and is an affront to the traveler. It's synthetic and it is cheep!

Finally, the flex idea is a reflection of management on lack of care and concern for the passenger.

My point of view is reflected in the picture below... flex food belongs in the pig feed bucket!


----------



## 20th Century Rider

20th Century Rider said:


> The overwhelming consensus of people pushing away this food has been to the opposite of what you are saying. In my own personal experiences with it on the eastern runs two years ago, folks would take a few bites then throw it in the trash; several reporting bloggers have done the same. I had the shrimp and sausage meal and it tasted rancid... that did it for me. Into the trash it went. I took a bite out of the 'hockey puck' breakfast sandwich... and that went into the trash also. The 'wine braised beef' floating around in broth with the polenta dissolving in it as well... was also found to be disgusting... and I pitched that as well.
> 
> I do respect your point of view and I hope you respect mine as well. How many AU'er are in anyway positive about flex dining???
> 
> And I poignantly disagree that flex food in any way resembles first class dining in the air... or even coach class meals on airlines that serve it. I've had that too... and there's no comparison.
> 
> I also feel that food becomes important when one is on the train for three days and two nights as with the CZ... and even longer on the TE.
> 
> There is also the issue of money paid and services received. Flex food is comparable with frozen meals purchased in the dollar stores... flex food has no taste, no texture, and is an affront to the traveler. It's synthetic and it is cheep!
> 
> Finally, the flex idea is a reflection of management on lack of care and concern for the passenger.
> 
> My point of view is reflected in the picture below... flex food belongs in the pig feed bucket!
> View attachment 22618


Oops oops oops... my mistake and my blunder... these pigs are actually eating apricots! And I also want to retract my statement regarding giving synthetic slop flex food to pigs... the animal rights activists would be very critical of feeding such poisonous poop to these creatures! Flex food is bad for pigs too!

So sorry for flipping and flopping around with such a yucky Amtrak management mistake!!!


----------



## jis

I am afraid I am one of those pigs. I have relatively little problem with the Flex items. Of course I would prefer that earlier modes of service in Dining Cars return. Indeed earlier the better. Perhaps 1950s would be really good. But meanwhile I can survive with Flex. Sorry to disappoint any who is disappointed. 

If you really think posting stupid cartoons will change anyone's mind or cause anyone to take you more seriously, you are seriously mistaken. I find it somewhat offensive to tell you the truth. But I suppose letting off steam this way instead of blowing up buildings or shooting up Walmarts is a less harmful way to go Postal.


----------



## Sidney

My TE/SL trip ended in LA at 6:05,gratefully delayed. I am now at Phillipes eating eggs and a ham steak.After three days of eating flex food,this feels like a gourmet meal.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> I am afraid I am one of those pigs. I have relatively little problem with the Flex items. Of course I would prefer that earlier modes of service in Dining Cars return. Indeed earlier the better. Perhaps 1950s would be really good. But meanwhile I can survive with Flex. Sorry to disappoint any who is disappointed.
> 
> If you really think posting stupid cartoons will change anyone's mind or cause anyone to take you more seriously, you are seriously mistaken. I find it somewhat offensive to tell you the truth. But I suppose letting off steam this way instead of blowing up buildings or shooting up Walmarts is a less harmful way to go Postal.











Quality, service, ambience go off the tracks with Amtrak's 'flexible dining"


Throughout the golden era of passenger rail service in the 1920s, ’30s, and early ’40s, and again in post-war America, railroads prided themselves on offering four-star restaurant quality meals and




www.wvgazettemail.com


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not to me, someone who regularly travels first class domestic and used to travel regularly in Amtrak sleeper.
> 
> Let me know who these “a lot of people” are.


I've had a couple of friends try out the Amtrak sleeping car experience for the first time during the Flexible Dining era, so they don't know any differently. They told me they enjoyed the meals.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> I've had a couple of friends try out the Amtrak sleeping car experience for the first time during the Flexible Dining era, so they don't know any differently. They told me they enjoyed the meals.



Do they regularly fly first class? Are they millennials?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

crescent-zephyr said:


> Do they regularly fly first class? Are they millennials?


Looks like there's a bunch of AU'ers that support flex dining


----------



## jruff001

crescent-zephyr said:


> Do they regularly fly first class? Are they millennials?


Yes. No.

(BTW, am Amtrak roomette compares very favorably to first class lie-flat seats on an airplane, IME.)


----------



## jis

20th Century Rider said:


> Quality, service, ambience go off the tracks with Amtrak's 'flexible dining"
> 
> 
> Throughout the golden era of passenger rail service in the 1920s, ’30s, and early ’40s, and again in post-war America, railroads prided themselves on offering four-star restaurant quality meals and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wvgazettemail.com


You continue to shadow box. I have not said that Flex Dining is the same as or better than what was there previously. It certainly is worse. All that I have said is it is not as bad as you shrilly and offensively proclaim. If you had traveled by the Silver Star in its"no dining" days, you'd know what I mean. And there is literally nothing that you can post that would conclusively modify that opinion.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> If you had traveled by the Silver Star in its"no dining" days, you'd know what I mean. And there is literally nothing that you can post that would conclusively modify that opinion.



I did. I preferred cafe only to flex dining.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jruff001 said:


> Yes. No.
> 
> (BTW, am Amtrak roomette compares very favorably to first class lie-flat seats on an airplane, IME.)



Yeah... my theory is that older people are happy to take a train ride and don’t care about the quality of the food. My fellow millennials that I work with and regularly travel with would not touch the flex dining entrees.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> You continue to shadow box. I have not said that Flex Dining is the same as or better than what was there previously. It certainly is worse. All that I have said is it is not as bad as you shrilly and offensively proclaim. If you had traveled by the Silver Star in its"no dining" days, you'd know what I mean. And there is literally nothing that you can post that would conclusively modify that opinion.


"Bad' is a subjective adjective. When the meal needs to be discarded because it smells rancid, or is lacking in taste and texture, that becomes more specific. Using humor to elaborate on one's point of view is done all the time. Ingredient components have also been an issue.

Flex dining has been an issue of concern for many AU'ers.

The right to express one's point of view seems to be an issue here. Some tolerate the flex concept better than others. And some just don't like it. It has been my experience that the AU forum allows individuals to express their point of views on Amtrak issues. Also on this forum members are encouraged to respect each other's point of view.

Amtrak food quality is certainly something we have been discussing on this forum. Again... we need to respect the right of free speech within the parameters of this forum.


----------



## OBS

20th Century Rider said:


> "Bad' is a subjective adjective. When the meal needs to be discarded because it smells rancid, or is lacking in taste and texture, that becomes more specific. Using humor to elaborate on one's point of view is done all the time. Ingredient components have also been an issue.
> 
> Flex dining has been an issue of concern for many AU'ers.
> 
> The right to express one's point of view seems to be an issue here. Some tolerate the flex concept better than others. And some just don't like it. It has been my experience that the AU forum allows individuals to express their point of views on Amtrak issues. Also on this forum members are encouraged to respect each other's point of view.
> 
> Amtrak food quality is certainly something we have been discussing on this forum. Again... we need to respect the right of free speech within the parameters of this forum.


I agree about respecting the right of free speech, it is just when you hear the same individual post the same opinion over and over and over and over and over, it becomes a little tiring. Not to mention the over the top graphics....JMHO....


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> I did. I preferred cafe only to flex dining.


That is not the only thing that makes us very different 


20th Century Rider said:


> "Bad' is a subjective adjective. When the meal needs to be discarded because it smells rancid, or is lacking in taste and texture, that becomes more specific. Using humor to elaborate on one's point of view is done all the time. Ingredient components have also been an issue.
> 
> Flex dining has been an issue of concern for many AU'ers.
> 
> The right to express one's point of view seems to be an issue here. Some tolerate the flex concept better than others. And some just don't like it. It has been my experience that the AU forum allows individuals to express their point of views on Amtrak issues. Also on this forum members are encouraged to respect each other's point of view.
> 
> Amtrak food quality is certainly something we have been discussing on this forum. Again... we need to respect the right of free speech within the parameters of this forum.


Straw man setup and knocked down! Bravo! No one is stopping you from being as offensive as you want to be. But the same freedom of expression let others criticize you for being offensive. So stop complaining about freedom of expression or lack thereof 

At least now you have come down from your high horse of "Everyone hates" to "some tolerate", and then tried to say that it is their old brains that cause them to tolerate. I bet you have not taken a poll of even the Millennial;s to back up your apparent claim of "all Millennials do something", somewhat like Amtrak's equally specious claims.


----------



## Sidney

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yeah... my theory is that older people are happy to take a train ride and don’t care about the quality of the food. My fellow millennials that I work with and regularly travel with would not touch the flex dining entrees.


Disagree. Older people have probably experienced traditional dining and decent food is essential on a long distance train. Flex dining is not decent food. At the price point for many sleepers,people expect and should receive better food.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> That is not the only thing that makes us very different



Why do you think flex is better? It certainly isn’t better quality or better presentation.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> That is not the only thing that makes us very different
> 
> Straw man setup and knocked down! Bravo! No one is stopping you from being as offensive as you want to be. But the same freedom of expression let others criticize you for being offensive. So stop complaining about freedom of expression or lack thereof


Acknowledging your offensive banter and complaining... inappropriate indeed.


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why do you think flex is better? It certainly isn’t better quality or better presentation.


I like some of the Flex items. Is that such a crime? I liked the Shrimp and Sausage, the Pasta and the much maligned Beef dish, and now the Breakfast Omelette on my recent trip on the Silver Meteor. 

When Flex started there were no hot items. After much complaining hot items were added and they were an improvement over what was before that, all blamed on the hapless Millennials of course. Cafe does not have any real hot items either other than the Burger which BTW I like (though some tomatoes and onions would have been a nice add on), the Hot Dog, the Pizza and the Jimmy Deans (which I also like). But there is only so many Burgers, Pizzas and Jimmy Deans you can eat.

Again, does that mean I think they are better than the traditional dining that was available pre-Flex? Of course not. Was that traditional dining better than the Culinary Institute Menu that was served previously? Of course not. But it was adequate. Even traditional dining had been progressively heading down hill for the last three decades. I guess many do not remember the Diner food from the 80s any more. I remember the amount of bellyaching that we did when the Cheese Cake Wedge was replace by a circular thing and Haagen-Dasz was replaced by what appeared to be some other brand.

Hopefully things will turn around, but especially on the Eastern trains it is not clear how much they will turn. I would certainly be happier if they can turn it around to something like international business class on airlines, which does not require an on board chef and yet serves some fine dishes. I believe DB uses similar setup for most of their rather large and delicious menu in their Bordrestaurant.


----------



## Mailliw

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not to me, someone who regularly travels first class domestic and used to travel regularly in Amtrak sleeper.
> 
> Let me know who these “a lot of people” are. View attachment 22616
> View attachment 22617


I doubt there would be much in the way of complaints if Flex Dining looked like the meal on the bottom. Everything I've heard about VIA's Ocean indicates they've managed to pull of First Class airline catering on the rails so it can ve done.


----------



## jis

Mailliw said:


> I doubt there would be much in the way of complaints if Flex Dining looked like the meal on the bottom. Everything I've heard about VIA's Ocean indicates they've managed to pull of First Class airline catering on the rails so it can ve done.


Exactly! I would love to see them achieve that in the Eastern LD trains if they wish to improve things without adding a Chef.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Cafe does not have any real hot items either other than the Burger which BTW I like (though some tomatoes and onions would have been a nice add on), and the Hot Dog and the Jimmy Deans (which I also like). But there is only so many Burgers and Jimmy Deans you can eat.



The cafe on the Star did have hot items when there was no diner. At least when I traveled. I never tried one as I kept to the salads, cheese and cracker tray, hummus, etc. (and maybe a few peanut m&m’s for dessert  )


----------



## jis

crescent-zephyr said:


> The cafe on the Star did have hot items when there was no diner. At least when I traveled. I never tried one as I kept to the salads, cheese and cracker tray, hummus, etc. (and maybe a few peanut m&m’s for dessert  )


Weren't the hot items added when Flex on Meteor got hot items. I thought they were a subset of the hot items in Flex Diner/Lounge. So if the Flex stuff is not acceptable in Diner/Lounges, I don't see how they'd be more acceptable in Cafe where you actually have to pay for them *shudder*.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

jis said:


> At least now you have come down from your high horse of "Everyone hates" to "some tolerate", and then tried to say that it is their old brains that cause them to do so. I bet you have not taken a poll of even the Millennial;s to back up your apparent claim of "all Millennials do something, somewhat like Amtrak's equally specious claims.


Don't know where you are grabbing this quotes from ... seems like some very confusing verbiage... are you quoting others on from the forum??? 

I choose not to pursue this line of conversation any longer.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> Weren't the hot items added when Flex on Meteor got hot items. I thought they were a subset of the hot items in Flex Diner/Lounge. So if the Flex stuff is not acceptable in Diner/Lounges, I don't see how they'd be more acceptable in Cafe where you actually have to pay for them *shudder*.



No. Flex didn’t come to meteor until October of 2019. These were not the flex meals. I doubt they were better but you could also choose entree salads, hot sandwiches, healthy items etc. 

Honestly I think the cafe burger is better than the flex meals I’ve had but not much.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> I do respect your point of view and I hope you respect mine as well. How many AU'er are in anyway positive about flex dining???


I do respect your POV. I think forums and boards would be boring if we all agreed on everything. If my post came off as harsh or uncivil I apologize it wasn't meant to. I agree with you and others to a point on flex dining - there is certainly room for improvement on flex dining. I think preprepared meals can work on one night trains - but they should address some of the common complaints - better breakfast, lunch, and bump up the meal quality and presentation. Where I disagree is the idea that it's universal trash can and "never again" universally among riders. I'm sure among railfans (and on this board) it's pretty universally despised. But I think among people that don't know any better and didn't experience train dining when it was grand - they've got nothing to compare to. I will confess my upcoming June trip is my first time on a two night train - maybe on the two nighters the mood is more along the lines of what you're saying. But on the eastern trains people seemed to be tolerating it(at least on my recent tirps.) Now I'm not going to say I didn't prefer my steak on the Auto Train to my flex meals on the silvers.. but people seemed to be ok with it...again on my trips at least.


----------



## lordsigma

20th Century Rider said:


> I also feel that food becomes important when one is on the train for three days and two nights as with the CZ... and even longer on the TE.



I also agree with you on this. I think food is more important on the two nighters and that traditional dining should at minimum return on those four trains. It sounds like that is what is occuring (plus the Coast Starlight.) On the TE it sounds like you'll get a traditional meal on the San antonio - Los Angeles part of the trip.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

lordsigma said:


> I do respect your POV. I think forums and boards would be boring if we all agreed on everything. If my post came off as harsh or uncivil I apologize it wasn't meant to. I agree with you and others to a point on flex dining - there is certainly room for improvement on flex dining. I think preprepared meals can work on one night trains - but they should address some of the common complaints - better breakfast, lunch, and bump up the meal quality and presentation. Where I disagree is the idea that it's universal trash can and "never again" universally among riders. I'm sure among railfans (and on this board) it's pretty universally despised. But I think among people that don't know any better and didn't experience train dining when it was grand - they've got nothing to compare to. I will confess my upcoming June trip is my first time on a two night train - maybe on the two nighters the mood is more along the lines of what you're saying. But on the eastern trains people seemed to be tolerating it(at least on my recent tirps.) Now I'm not going to say I didn't prefer my steak on the Auto Train to my flex meals on the silvers.. but people seemed to be ok with it...again on my trips at least.



Thank you for your response... and perhaps my 'tongue and cheek' focus / humor was a little strong... but we all want the same thing... a better quality cuisine experience aboard the trains.

Here is a good read from Conde Naste Traveler on train food around the world. As was discussed on this forum; pre prepared food can be done up with much more quality than what we have now. 









Forget Airplane Food—Let's Talk About Train Food


Airplanes aren’t the only places you can eat good food while en route—here are ten train lines that serve excellent food on board.




www.cntraveler.com


----------



## lordsigma

At the same time though....I wouldn't say preferring the steak would necessarily be my deciding factor in choosing the Silver vs. Auto Train. Auto Train is great but it makes me have to drove 6 hours to Lorton from Massachusetts. There are trips where I'll take the flex meals if it means not having to make the DC Drive when I don't feel like the drive. When I do Silvers I can get dropped off and depart 10 minutes from my house and get a Regional connection to the Silvers at NYP. For me the deciding factor is whether I want my vehicle down there enough to do the 6 hour drive both ways or just rent down there and instead have that leg on the train.


----------



## Cal

Sidney said:


> I still don't understand why people in sleepers can't substitute food from the cafe car. Why? Eating those sodium laded bland reheated meals is tough.


Some LSA's letyou


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> I am afraid I am one of those pigs. I have relatively little problem with the Flex items. Of course I would prefer that earlier modes of service in Dining Cars return. Indeed earlier the better. Perhaps 1950s would be really good. But meanwhile I can survive with Flex. Sorry to disappoint any who is disappointed.
> 
> If you really think posting stupid cartoons will change anyone's mind or cause anyone to take you more seriously, you are seriously mistaken. I find it somewhat offensive to tell you the truth. But I suppose letting off steam this way instead of blowing up buildings or shooting up Walmarts is a less harmful way to go Postal.


I agree. And on my latest Amtrak trip, I didn't see anyone throw away a flex meal. Of course they probably didn't love it, but they ate it and enjoyed conversation. 

I personally don't love them, but I'll eat them. And several AU'ers have called the cod and shrimp in lobster sauce decent to quite good.


----------



## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why do you think flex is better? It certainly isn’t better quality or better presentation.


I would think it's better because you have the option to get something else.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> At the same time though....I wouldn't say preferring the steak would necessarily be my deciding factor in choosing the Silver vs. Auto Train. Auto Train is great but it makes me have to drove 6 hours to Lorton from Massachusetts. There are trips where I'll take the flex meals if it means not having to make the DC Drive when I don't feel like the drive. When I do Silvers I can get dropped off and depart 10 minutes from my house. For me the deciding factor is whether I want my vehicle down there enough to do the 6 hour drive both ways or just rent down there and instead have that leg on the train.


Food is one of the factors of consideration when choosing a mode of travel, and even among trains in places that are lucky enough to have multiple choices on each route. But it is not the only consideration.

For me usually it is riding the train that takes priority food or not, which admittedly is a minute minority view I am sure. I have ridden on trains in various parts of the world where the only food to be had was from vendors on station platforms (if you have had tea from little earthenware pots, and food served on containers made of stitched together leafs - totally recyclable back to earth - you'll know what I am talking about) at one extreme to trains with luxurious Restaurant Cars or Diners with elaborate menus and presentation. The latter is certainly much more ostentatious, but limiting myself to only those trains with the latter would have caused me to miss out on some of the most fascinating rail journeys to remote places. So one gets to pick and choose depending on what one is trying to achieve.

As for Amtrak, I think the right thing for Amtrak to do is to definitely move back to traditional dining with an on board Chef preferably with a menu llike in the late 90s or early naughts, rather than the stuff that came later on the slope to oblivion. Frankly, compared to the '90s Culinary Institute days, the last round of traditional dining before Flex was already getting pretty dismal. Now that the F&B account does not have to be a separate break even P&L by law, they can do better than what they did in the waning days of the Boardman regime or what followed since then.

For single night journey eastern trains I think the airline intercontinental first class model which does not require an on board Chef is workable, if they can pull it off given the apparently reduced ability at Amtrak to manage anything. I think a combination of at table service and counter service should be feasible too if they wish to go to a single food service car, but I would still like to have a Lounge Car retained even if it does not have a food counter, if anything at least serve as a common space for consuming food (from the food service car or elsewhere) and socializing. Western trains should also retain Lounge cars (SSL if possible) for the same reason.

For mid-long distance day trains maybe minimally what needs to be done is to invent a true blue American Bento Box or a set of them to be available at the food service counter i the train.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> I am afraid I am one of those pigs. I have relatively little problem with the Flex items. Of course I would prefer that earlier modes of service in Dining Cars return. Indeed earlier the better. Perhaps 1950s would be really good. But meanwhile I can survive with Flex. Sorry to disappoint any who is disappointed.


Ditto


----------



## JayPea

I am amongst those who didn't find the flex meals all that bad. Of course it wasn't the dining car food I was used to and of course I much prefer that. But last year on a long Amtrak trip I tried all 8 of the entrees and of those only one I didn't like. That was last September and from what I understand the flex meals have improved since then. I repeat that I'd much rather have traditional dining and do hope it comes back as of June 30th. But I didn't think the flex meals were horrible and I make no apologies for saying so.


----------



## Rasputin

As a long time railfan it is possible that I might someday embrace the ascetic experience of a trip on the Texas Eagle just to have a long train ride. But I don't think in good conscience I could encourage family members who are not railfans to join me on a trip with so few amenities.


----------



## zephyr17

lordsigma said:


> On the TE it sounds like you'll get a traditional meal on the San antonio - Los Angeles part of the trip.


Yes, on the Sunset. They won't be stocking flex meals especially for the Texas Eagle through passengers on the Sunset.


----------



## Cal

So why is the Eagle no longer getting traditional dining? Is this confirmed or just a speculation because of odd wording?


----------



## Sidney

The TE is being relegated to the status of an Eastern train,it seems. I was on it Friday and Saturday and the Eastern version of the Flex menu was used. I ve read posts here that traditional dining will not return,nor will the SSL car.

Amtrak says it is being "retired". What the hell does that mean? Are we in danger of losing other Sightseer cars? The SSL car is a wonderful perk for travelers. Prices keep going up,the amenities keep going down. Unless things change,this was my last trip on the Texas Eagle.


----------



## west point

I know a railfan who has acquired the tick borne meat allergy, He is wondering what to do for eating on a long Amtrak trip ?


----------



## jis

These are my notes on speculation of what is likely to happen based on various utterances from various places on the subject

Reading between the lines I get the impression that Amtrak has designated 5 Western trains as the Experiential Service. These are:

Sunset Limited
Southwest Chief
California Zephyr
Empire Builder
Coast Starlight
These will get premium Diner and SSL services. The get Traditional Dining whatever it turns out to be starting 1st July.

Auto Train will remain a class by itself.

The remaining Superliner trains will apparently get the CCC and no SSL and continue with Flex Menu of some sort until the next phase of food service for the Eastern trains is determined. Once that happens they will get the same treatment as the Eastern trains..

The Viewliner (Eastern) trains will remain on Flex Menu. Eventually there will be some significant upgrade of foo service, but most likely still based on Pre-prepared meals that do not require a Chef on board to cook anything. They will possibly be plated and presented better and there might yet again be an attempt to standardize on using Convection Ovens.

At present it appears that the Diner will be an exclusive benefit of Sleeper travel i.e. no Coach passengers in Diners. It is possible that at some point some Diner fare may be sold across the counter to Coach passengers for consumption in the Lounge section or at their seats.

There have been rumblings about single food service car on the non-Experiential trains though details are hard to come by. So we will have to wait and see whether the Mica inspired project still lives or it is falling by the 3wayside. Perhaps the advocacy community ought top get in the act and make sure that it falls by the wayside and trains continue to have Lounges of some sort or the other.

Anyway, that is what I have extracted from what is going on so far. No guarantees of correctness since quite a bt of it is speculative based on currently known knowns (as Rumsfeld would say).


----------



## Sidney

The City of New Orleans,from what I read has a SSL car.

In a perfect,reasonable world you would expect the prices for sleepers on the TE to drop. I did notice,doing dummy bookings the price for a roomette on the TE from Chicago to San Antonio is a reasonable $310,including rail fare on days they don't connect with the SL. On connection days they rise about $150.


----------



## jis

Sidney said:


> The City of New Orleans,from what I read has a SSL car.


Interestingly, the CONO got a food downgrade quite a while back, and it still luckily retains its SSL, whereas the TE did not undergo a food downgrade when the CONO did and now it is losing its SSL. Who knows whether they plan to classify it as an Experiential train?


----------



## lordsigma

jis said:


> Interestingly, the CONO got a food downgrade quite a while back, and it still luckily retains its SSL, whereas the TE did not undergo a food downgrade when the CONO did and now it is losing its SSL. Who knows whether they plan to classify it as an Experiential train?


According to Chestler the CONO SSL is due to axle count requirements. The official word coming out of Amtrak is that between the five experiential western trains and the axle count requirement on the CONO there is a shortage of cars to be able to have them on the TE and CL.


----------



## jis

lordsigma said:


> According to Chestler the CONO SSL is due to axle count requirements. The official word coming out of Amtrak is that between the five experiential western trains and the axle count requirement on the CONO there is a shortage of cars to be able to have them on the TE and CL.


Good point. I had somehow forgotten about the axle count thing. Yes it would be borderline with the number of cars that have been disposed off or are off line for some reason or the other.


----------



## Rasputin

If there is a shortage of Sightseer lounge cars, I would think the Texas Eagle would get priority over the CONO based on the hours of daylight running. I assume the CONO could operate with a baggage car or two or a dorm car or two as axle count cars.


----------



## Cal

jis said:


> These are my notes on speculation of what is likely to happen based on various utterances from various places on the subject
> 
> Reading between the lines I get the impression that Amtrak has designated 5 Western trains as the Experiential Service. These are:
> 
> Sunset Limited
> Southwest Chief
> California Zephyr
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> These will get premium Diner and SSL services. The get Traditional Dining whatever it turns out to be starting 1st July.
> 
> Auto Train will remain a class by itself.
> 
> The remaining Superliner trains will apparently get the CCC and no SSL and continue with Flex Menu of some sort until the next phase of food service for the Eastern trains is determined. Once that happens they will get the same treatment as the Eastern trains..
> 
> The Viewliner (Eastern) trains will remain on Flex Menu. Eventually there will be some significant upgrade of foo service, but most likely still based on Pre-prepared meals that do not require a Chef on board to cook anything. They will possibly be plated and presented better and there might yet again be an attempt to standardize on using Convection Ovens.
> 
> At present it appears that the Diner will be an exclusive benefit of Sleeper travel i.e. no Coach passengers in Diners. It is possible that at some point some Diner fare may be sold across the counter to Coach passengers for consumption in the Lounge section or at their seats.
> 
> There have been rumblings about single food service car on the non-Experiential trains though details are hard to come by. So we will have to wait and see whether the Mica inspired project still lives or it is falling by the 3wayside. Perhaps the advocacy community ought top get in the act and make sure that it falls by the wayside and trains continue to have Lounges of some sort or the other.
> 
> Anyway, that is what I have extracted from what is going on so far. No guarantees of correctness since quite a bt of it is speculative based on currently known knowns (as Rumsfeld would say).


I hope this is not true. Arrow, which I know is not the most trustworthy site, is showing traditional dining for the TE in July, just as the 'Experiential' trains. It gives me some hope.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

jis said:


> These are my notes on speculation of what is likely to happen based on various utterances from various places on the subject
> 
> Reading between the lines I get the impression that Amtrak has designated 5 Western trains as the Experiential Service. These are:
> 
> Sunset Limited
> Southwest Chief
> California Zephyr
> Empire Builder
> Coast Starlight
> These will get premium Diner and SSL services. The get Traditional Dining whatever it turns out to be starting 1st July.
> 
> Auto Train will remain a class by itself.
> 
> The remaining Superliner trains will apparently get the CCC and no SSL and continue with Flex Menu of some sort until the next phase of food service for the Eastern trains is determined. Once that happens they will get the same treatment as the Eastern trains..
> 
> The Viewliner (Eastern) trains will remain on Flex Menu. Eventually there will be some significant upgrade of foo service, but most likely still based on Pre-prepared meals that do not require a Chef on board to cook anything. They will possibly be plated and presented better and there might yet again be an attempt to standardize on using Convection Ovens.
> 
> At present it appears that the Diner will be an exclusive benefit of Sleeper travel i.e. no Coach passengers in Diners. It is possible that at some point some Diner fare may be sold across the counter to Coach passengers for consumption in the Lounge section or at their seats.
> 
> There have been rumblings about single food service car on the non-Experiential trains though details are hard to come by. So we will have to wait and see whether the Mica inspired project still lives or it is falling by the 3wayside. Perhaps the advocacy community ought top get in the act and make sure that it falls by the wayside and trains continue to have Lounges of some sort or the other.
> 
> Anyway, that is what I have extracted from what is going on so far. No guarantees of correctness since quite a bt of it is speculative based on currently known knowns (as Rumsfeld would say).



Yeah I think you’re right. It does make sense to have the ssl’s and full diners on the longer trains so at least that is somewhat logical.

What doesn’t make sense is downgrading the Silvers, Crescent, Lake Shore and Capitol. I can see the argument for the City and Eagle - but the others make no sense. They should be getting a BETTER service to attract higher price tags.


----------



## zephyr17

Rasputin said:


> If there is a shortage of Sightseer lounge cars, I would think the Texas Eagle would get priority over the CONO based on the hours of daylight running. I assume the CONO could operate with a baggage car or two or a dorm car or two as axle count cars.


So how did Amtrak develop a shortage of SSL's when they had enough of the cars to run them daily on all Superliner long distance trains before the pandemic. Did the cars die of COVID-19? Amtrak needs to account for the supposed loss of serviceable, road-worthy equipment.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

zephyr17 said:


> So how did Amtrak develop a shortage of SSL's when they had enough of the cars to run them daily on all Superliner long distance trains before the pandemic. Did the cars die of COVID-19? Amtrak needs to account for the supposed loss of serviceable, road-worthy equipment.



If Amtrak can use brand new Viewliner II’s as axle count cars they are clearly not accountable for anything in regards to rolling stock. 

Also... didn’t the states pay extra for the dome car to operate seasonally? So that was a revenue making car correct? But Amtrak quietly sells it off with all the heritage diners.


----------



## Willbridge

me_little_me said:


> I couldn't find anything about that in the Amtrak document but I may have missed it. Can you provide the page number or whatever to help me find it?
> 
> BTW, If you are old enough to remember the old Soviet 5 year plans, you will remember they seemed to be completely changed the next year because they were a pipe dream for outproducing and out-arming the West when in fact, with each new 5 year plan, they fell further behind because they were utter garbage.


Interesting to note that one of the early weaknesses of the Five Year Plans was that the railway planned the number of cars for shippers rigidly. When there was a surge in traffic they kept on with the same car supply at the same prices, even if the fleet had cars available. Sort of like Amtrak recently on the supply side, but rather different on the pricing side. Under the old U.S. regulatory system, the prices stayed constant but when there was a surge in traffic the railways were welcome to use every car they had.


----------



## Larry H.

I have said it before but due to this subject and the controversy I will repeat it.. Our last meal on Amtrak a couple years ago by now was on the City of New Orleans. The so called sandwich was the worst soggy distasteful mess I ever got on the train. An yes most of it went in the trash where it belonged as far as I was concerned. My mom ordered the so called Cesar Salad which ended up being nothing but green head lettuce with a few pieces of carrot. When we ask about why it wasn't what they showed in the menu the woman said they didn't often get the items as show anymore. And to top it off what they called cheesecake was a round patty that was totally unlike any cheesecake I ever ate a piece of. When I consider it I have to say that at Walmart you can get a wonderful set of various very tasty cheese cakes for around 6 dollars, and that would serve at least three people if needed. Who ever is in charge of buying the foods simply does't care what they end up serving and that should come to a halt on all trains.. My friends just returned from Chicago on the Texas Eagle. He sent an email to Amtrak telling them how poor the food quality was and wondered why a long distance train would run without a lounge car? It probably won't matter. When I saw the new President or CEO say they were going to " put the passengers needs before cost cutting" I thought maybe finally got it, but evidently they haven't.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Larry H. said:


> I have said it before but due to this subject and the controversy I will repeat it.. Our last meal on Amtrak a couple years ago by now was on the City of New Orleans. The so called sandwich was the worst soggy distasteful mess I ever got on the train. An yes most of it went in the trash where it belonged as far as I was concerned. My mom ordered the so called Cesar Salad which ended up being nothing but green head lettuce with a few pieces of carrot. When we ask about why it wasn't what they showed in the menu the woman said they didn't often get the items as show anymore. And to top it off what they called cheesecake was a round patty that was totally unlike any cheesecake I ever ate a piece of. When I consider it I have to say that at Walmart you can get a wonderful set of various very tasty cheese cakes for around 6 dollars, and that would serve at least three people if needed. Who ever is in charge of buying the foods simply does't care what they end up serving and that should come to a halt on all trains.. My friends just returned from Chicago on the Texas Eagle. He sent an email to Amtrak telling them how poor the food quality was and wondered why a long distance train would run without a lounge car? It probably won't matter. When I saw the new President or CEO say they were going to " put the passengers needs before cost cutting" I thought maybe finally got it, but evidently they haven't.
> 
> Amen... Flex food is not very good and not reasonably reflective of the prices charged for sleeper accommodations.


----------



## Tennessee Traveler

zephyr17 said:


> So how did Amtrak develop a shortage of SSL's when they had enough of the cars to run them daily on all Superliner long distance trains before the pandemic. Did the cars die of COVID-19? Amtrak needs to account for the supposed loss of serviceable, road-worthy equipment.



Amtrak DID NOT have enough SSL's prior to the pandemic. In the last few years before the pandemic I rode Southwest Chief's, California Zephyrs and Empire Builders that used substitute Cross Country Cafes when there was a problem with the regular SSL. There were no available SSL's for fill that need.


----------



## 20th Century Rider

You can get more info on the TE here... apparently management has surmised that the pandemic caused the shortage of SSL's which weren't maintained during the pandemic. According the the knowledge gained by this reporting service, the TE will continue to have flex meals for the portion that goes between CHI and connection with the Sunset Limited... totally unacceptable for a train that travels almost two days before it's connection with the SL which is considered a 'Western Train.'









Amtrak's Texas Eagle falls short on daily restored service promises - Texas Rail Advocates







texasrailadvocates.org


----------



## zephyr17

Tennessee Traveler said:


> Amtrak DID NOT have enough SSL's prior to the pandemic. In the last few years before the pandemic I rode Southwest Chief's, California Zephyrs and Empire Builders that used substitute Cross Country Cafes when there was a problem with the regular SSL. There were no available SSL's for fill that need.


They nevertheless scheduled them. Amtrak's lack of protection equipment is certainly an issue, but a separate one, not new, and not connected to the pandemic.

In point of fact, such substitutions were temporary and Sightseers were not officially withdrawn from any route that had them. The cars were repaired and returned to service.

The issue to me is, having run a reduced schedule for 8 months with the opportunity to catch up on maintainence while service was down and not as many cars had to be on the road, why are so many cars bad ordered now? The whole existing fleet of SSLs ought to be in as good a shape as possible and ready to roll. They're obviously not.


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## jruff001

zephyr17 said:


> The issue to me is, having run a reduced schedule for 8 months with the opportunity to catch up on maintainence while service was down and not as many cars had to be on the road, why are so many cars bad ordered now? The whole existing fleet of SSLs ought to be in as good a shape as possible and ready to roll. They're obviously not.


I imagine many maintenance workers were laid off and there was no budget to do any repairs other than what was absolutely necessary to keep the reduced fleet rolling.

Hindsight is 20/20 and while business is booming now, a year ago was a very different and scary story. A lot of businesses were being conservative making contingency plans for a long recession, if not an outright depression, post-Covid. No one knew what the long-term economic implications would be.

And more importantly, there was an immediate and severe cash shortage as things shut down and revenues dried up.

It's easy to second guess, but I know that at my company in the transportation industry, even though we are scrambling to find workers now, a year ago we were laying people off because the future was looking very dark and unpredictable. Our customers were giving us very grim guidance about their situations so we were planning accordingly.


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## zephyr17

jruff001 said:


> I imagine many maintenance workers were laid off and there was no budget to do any repairs other than what was absolutely necessary to keep the reduced fleet rolling.
> 
> Hindsight is 20/20 and while business is booming now, a year ago was a very different and scary story. A lot of businesses were being conservative making contingency plans for a long recession, if not an outright depression, post-Covid. No one knew what the long-term economic implications would be.
> 
> And more importantly, there was an immediate and severe cash shortage as things shut down and revenues dried up.
> 
> It's easy to second guess, but I know that at my company in the transportation industry, even though we are scrambling to find workers now, a year ago we were laying people off because the future was looking very dark and unpredictable. Our customers were giving us very grim guidance about their situations so we were planning accordingly.


That's a fair point.

However, I will say it's been a couple months since the stimulus passed and part of the stimulus was recall of all furloughed workers (as well as the requirement to go back to daily service on trains that had it before). At the very least, it seems like they've had enough time to at least plan for and be able to schedule a date for the SSL's return rather than leaving it indefinite. Their full workforce should be back in place.

Indefinite invites a lot of negative speculation, as we've seen here. 
It isn't without basis, since Amtrak has a long track record of temporary but indefinite suspensions or withdrawals that have had a way of becoming permanent.


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## neroden

zephyr17 said:


> The issue to me is, having run a reduced schedule for 8 months with the opportunity to catch up on maintainence while service was down and not as many cars had to be on the road, why are so many cars bad ordered now? The whole existing fleet of SSLs ought to be in as good a shape as possible and ready to roll. They're obviously not.


Every transit agency used the pandemic to accelerate capital construction and maintenance.

Amtrak didn't. Now, part of that is due to Amtrak's different funding stream, but part of it is just straight up incompetence by Amtrak's management. I don't want to assume maliciousness since there is so much evidence of gross incompetence.


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## Deni

Didn't want to start a new thread to ask a question, and since the SSLs shortages have been discussed in here, I figure maybe someone knows. I have a friend taking off on the Cap Ltd from Chicago tonight and she asked me if there will be lounge on it for her trip. Anyone know if they have an SSL back on? And what the full consist is right now?


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## Bob Dylan

Deni said:


> Didn't want to start a new thread to ask a question, and since the SSLs shortages have been discussed in here, I figure maybe someone knows. I have a friend taking off on the Cap Ltd from Chicago tonight and she asked me if there will be lounge on it for her trip. Anyone know if they have an SSL back on? And what the full consist is right now?


It's been running with a Shortened Consist similar to the Texas Eagle, 2 Sleepers,1CCC and 2 Coaches. No Lounge !


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## Cal

Deni said:


> Didn't want to start a new thread to ask a question, and since the SSLs shortages have been discussed in here, I figure maybe someone knows. I have a friend taking off on the Cap Ltd from Chicago tonight and she asked me if there will be lounge on it for her trip. Anyone know if they have an SSL back on? And what the full consist is right now?


No SSL, which is unfortunate. The Capitol Limited has some very good scenery.


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## dcipjr

Deni said:


> Didn't want to start a new thread to ask a question, and since the SSLs shortages have been discussed in here, I figure maybe someone knows. I have a friend taking off on the Cap Ltd from Chicago tonight and she asked me if there will be lounge on it for her trip. Anyone know if they have an SSL back on? And what the full consist is right now?



I was on the Cap Ltd. less than two weeks ago; unfortunately, there was no lounge.


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## Deni

Thanks for the rapid responses. Too bad it's not good news.


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## Richrabino

Perhaps Amtrak should look into building or designating revenue observation car space as a class, or using observation cars as coaches on some of the more scenic trains (after building some new ones, of course).


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## Bob Dylan

I think most of us would be willing to pay an upcharge from riding in a True Lounge Car like the ones from the Golden Age of Passenger Trains.

Not so much so for Superliner Sightseer Lounges,which should continue to be Free as currently is the case on most LD Superliners!


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## jruff001

Richrabino said:


> Perhaps Amtrak should look into building or designating revenue observation car space as a class, or using observation cars as coaches on some of the more scenic trains (after building some new ones, of course).


Perhaps. But this thread is (or at least started out to be) about the Texas Eagle. No scenery here!


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## crescent-zephyr

Bob Dylan said:


> I think most of us would be willing to pay an upcharge from riding in a True Lounge Car like the ones from the Golden Age of Passenger Trains.
> 
> Not so much so for Superliner Sightseer Lounges,which should continue to be Free as currently is the case on most LD Superliners!



What did you prefer about the classic lounge cars vs. the ssl?


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## Bob Dylan

crescent-zephyr said:


> What did you prefer about the classic lounge cars vs. the ssl?


The seats were much more comfortable, the decor was much better on the Heritage Lounges, and the Drinks and Snacks and Service were head and shoulders better in the Lounges.

The only Negative was that Smoking was allowed.


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## Brian Battuello

Aside from the chance to pretend we're in the Golden Age of railroading? I'm willing to wear a suit to increase my chances of meeting Eva Marie Saint. 

But then there is the smoking...


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## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> The seats were much more comfortable, the decor was much better on the Heritage Lounges, and the Drinks and Snacks and Service were head and shoulders better in the Lounges.
> 
> The only Negative was that Smoking was allowed.


The smoke thing was a huge negative. The place reeked of it even when no one was smoking. But I suppose to get the proper lounge atmosphere the smoke was almost an integral part of it so I mostly stayed out of the ghastly places.  Which is too bad because the Lounge on the Montrealer had a lot of potential otherwise.

Frankly, the Amtrak Lounge cars including the SSL were never intended to recreate that atmosphere of yore. OTOH, they could have done much better in inventing and aligning with typical static (i.e. not on wheels) lounges of today.

The Pacific Parlour Car was a good crack at it, and the Viewliner Diner as a hard product has some good potential that is yet to be realized. It would be interesting to see how the so called Diner/Lounges from Siemens in the Amfleet I replacement order turn out even though they are for Regional Corridor service.


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## crescent-zephyr

Interesting... I think the SSL is one of the best designed lounge cars for long distance train travel.


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## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> The smoke thing was a huge negative. The place reeked of it even when no one was smoking. But I suppose to get the proper lounge atmosphere the smoke was almost an integral part of it so I mostly stayed out of the ghastly places.  EWhich is too bad because the Lounge on the Montrealer had a lot of potential otherwise.
> 
> Frankly, the Amtrak Lunge cars including the SSL were never intended to recreate that atmosphere of yore. OTOH, they could have done much better in inventing and aligning with typical static (i.e. not on wheels) lounges of today.
> 
> The Pacific Parlour Car was a good crack at it, and the Viewliner Diner as a hard product has some good potential that is yet to be realized. It would be interesting to see how the so called Diner/Lounges from Siemens in the Amfleet I replacement order turn out even they are for Regional Corridor service.


Excellent points, the PPCs( and the Park Cars on VIA) are the closest thing to the Golden Era Lounges this side of a PV!!!


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> Interesting... I think the SSL is one of the best designed lounge cars for long distance train travel.


They are very well designed for the job in question. But they’re talking about the golden age of rail travel, where it was considerably more luxurious.


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## jis

The downstairs lounge in the SSLs often used to be a fun place when they had the electric Piano (or whatever it was) down there and musically minded people congregated there with their guitars and stuff to have a small jam session. But then the instrument went away and the lights were brightened to a point where you could get Sun burns from it, and that was the end of that.


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## OBS

jis said:


> The downstairs lounge in the SSLs often used to be a fun place when they had the electric Piano (or whatever it was) down there and musically minded people congregated there with their guitars and stuff to have a small jam session. But then the instrument went away and the lights were brightened to a point where you could get Sun burns from it, and that was the end of that.


It was an electric piano...and that was many ( at least 30) years ago......The Heritage Lounges on the Montrealer had them also, to go with the smoking, and the wild parties....


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## jis

OBS said:


> It was an electric piano...and that was many ( at least 30) years ago......The Heritage Lounges on the Montrealer had them also, to go with the smoking, and the wild parties....


Yeah, I know. Liked that Amtrak a bit more than the one now. I think the managers of the customer facing services were more imaginative back then than they are now. Then again, they also had much more equipment to play with at their disposal too. Different era. Just wanted to share with the youngsters what was there in the Amtrak era well after the golden age of Private Railroad passenger service had ended.


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## Brian Battuello

The piano lounge was great. Much better than listening to your seatmates "Hot for Teacher" leaking around his earbuds at full volume. 

Not everything worked. My kids and I were invited to see Disney's "Aladdin" on a TV in the corner of the SSL. First, the set was about the size and quality of a 1970 Motel 6 TV. And to try to satisfy everyone, the attendant put the volume at slightly above whisper. So we spent 80 minutes trying to figure out which was Aladdin and which was the Genie. 

And anyone else remember the tiny TV screen in the first VL sleeping cars? Never saw anything appear on it, and it disappeared a year or so later.


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## jis

Brian Battuello said:


> And anyone else remember the tiny TV screen in the first VL sleeping cars? Never saw anything appear on it, and it disappeared a year or so later.


I heard that they were all rapidly stolen and sold off at Sunnyside.


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## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> I heard that they were all rapidly stolen and sold off at Sunnyside.


Same thing with the TVs and VCRs in the Superliner Lounges!


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## crescent-zephyr

Cal said:


> They are very well designed for the job in question. But they’re talking about the golden age of rail travel, where it was considerably more luxurious.



I think people’s memories make the cars of old much more luxurious in their minds. The SSL Cars have such a great combination of viewing, seating, and food service possibilities. Now the fact the upstairs bar goes unstaffed and the lower level has become a self-serve convenience store with a microwave is another set of issues. 



Brian Battuello said:


> And anyone else remember the tiny TV screen in the first VL sleeping cars? Never saw anything appear on it, and it disappeared a year or so later.



I remember them. They always worked for me while they existed. Was kind of fun.


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## Will Ray

Rasputin said:


> I saw on another list that the Texas Eagle sightseer lounge was being discontinued "permanently" between Chicago and San Antonio.
> 
> Evidently a desperate move on Amtrak's part to clearly show that their trains are not worth riding.


I seriously doubt that that is permanent, but merely an operational consideration with available equipment.


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## ja5151

We're taking the TE from ALN to CHI on Sunday. If there's no SSL, do they let coach passengers buy cafe food from the dining car, or are you out of luck unless you're in a sleeper?


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## Cal

ja5151 said:


> If there's no SSL, do they let coach passengers buy cafe food from the dining car, or are you out of luck unless you're in a sleeper?


Yes, they do.


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## MARC Rider

ja5151 said:


> We're taking the TE from ALN to CHI on Sunday. If there's no SSL, do they let coach passengers buy cafe food from the dining car, or are you out of luck unless you're in a sleeper?


Does the Texas Eagle have a Cross Country Cafe? The Capitol Limited has one, and the deal is that there's a cafe side (nearest to the coaches) where you can buy cafe food and sit a lounge booths and a diner side where they serve Flex meals to the sleeping car passengers (and presumably where the sleeper passengers can hang out if they want to get out of their rooms. At least that's the way it was on the Capitol when I rode it last June.


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## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> Does the Texas Eagle have a Cross Country Cafe? The Capitol Limited has one, and the deal is that there's a cafe side (nearest to the coaches) where you can buy cafe food and sit a lounge booths and a diner side where they serve Flex meals to the sleeping car passengers (and presumably where the sleeper passengers can hang out if they want to get out of their rooms. At least that's the way it was on the Capitol when I rode it last June.


Yep, it has a CCC


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## F900ElCapitan

MARC Rider said:


> Does the Texas Eagle have a Cross Country Cafe? The Capitol Limited has one, and the deal is that there's a cafe side (nearest to the coaches) where you can buy cafe food and sit a lounge booths and a diner side where they serve Flex meals to the sleeping car passengers (and presumably where the sleeper passengers can hang out if they want to get out of their rooms. At least that's the way it was on the Capitol when I rode it last June.


Yes, that is the service that is being provided.


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## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> Does the Texas Eagle have a Cross Country Cafe? The Capitol Limited has one, and the deal is that there's a cafe side (nearest to the coaches) where you can buy cafe food and sit a lounge booths and a diner side where they serve Flex meals to the sleeping car passengers (and presumably where the sleeper passengers can hang out if they want to get out of their rooms. At least that's the way it was on the Capitol when I rode it last June.


Great idea. It encourages the coach passengers to be thankful they didn't spend money for a room when they see sleeper passengers retching after eating flex food and it makes the sleeper passengers dream of the days when the burger and veggie-burger were offered at lunch when they see the microwaved cafe burgers and think how much better their life used to be.


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## 20th Century Rider

me_little_me said:


> Great idea. It encourages the coach passengers to be thankful they didn't spend money for a room when they see sleeper passengers retching after eating flex food and it makes the sleeper passengers dream of the days when the burger and veggie-burger were offered at lunch when they see the microwaved cafe burgers and think how much better their life used to be.


Will be on the TE next week... and of course dreading the over processed 5 ounce puddle of high fat, high sodium, high carb, tasteless, textureless, synthetic food product that they call a 'meal' I went ahead and ordered the Kosher meals... thinking it's a step up. Does anyone on the forum have experience with both who can share their opinion and advice on the Kosher option??? BTW I understand the Kosher meals are bland so I brought along seasoning salt and hot sauce


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## F900ElCapitan

20th Century Rider said:


> Will be on the TE next week... and of course dreading the over processed 5 ounce puddle of high fat, high sodium, high carb, tasteless, textureless, synthetic food product that they call a 'meal' I went ahead and ordered the Kosher meals... thinking it's a step up. Does anyone on the forum have experience with both who can share their opinion and advice on the Kosher option??? BTW I understand the Kosher meals are bland so I brought along seasoning salt and hot sauce


I ordered the Kosher meals a few times during the height of covid. The breakfast omelette was definitely a step up from the Jimmy Dean back then. I think it is better than todays ”omelette”, but it’s closer. Lunch/dinner wise, the salmon was significantly better than anything offered on the flex menu. I never tried the chicken so I can’t really comment on it. My biggest complaint about these meals is the cooks didn’t pull the meal out of the freezer until serving it, so all of the things on the cold side of the meal were still frozen. You might ask your SCA to alert the diner crew to your choice so they can have the meal better prepared. Also, seasoning salt would be a good thing, but I am happy to add a little rather than be overdosed with sodium in the flex meals.


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## 20th Century Rider

F900ElCapitan said:


> I ordered the Kosher meals a few times during the height of covid. The breakfast omelette was definitely a step up from the Jimmy Dean back then. I think it is better than todays ”omelette”, but it’s closer. Lunch/dinner wise, the salmon was significantly better than anything offered on the flex menu. I never tried the chicken so I can’t really comment on it. My biggest complaint about these meals is the cooks didn’t pull the meal out of the freezer until serving it, so all of the things on the cold side of the meal were still frozen. You might ask your SCA to alert the diner crew to your choice so they can have the meal better prepared. Also, seasoning salt would be a good thing, but I am happy to add a little rather than be overdosed with sodium in the flex meals.


Thank you for the advice! 

Also ordered Kosher breakfasts, salmon, and chicken on the Cardinal, Crescent, and CONO. Don't want to risk whatever the beef might be. Of course when heading west on the EB it's real food once again!


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## MARC Rider

me_little_me said:


> Great idea. It encourages the coach passengers to be thankful they didn't spend money for a room when they see sleeper passengers retching after eating flex food and it makes the sleeper passengers dream of the days when the burger and veggie-burger were offered at lunch when they see the microwaved cafe burgers and think how much better their life used to be.


Actually. when I got breakfast, I couldn't see the sleeper pax eating theirs in the other and if the car. But the cafe attendant did comp me a leftover brownie (still in its intact wrapper) from the sleeper flex dinners from the night before.


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## Sidney

MARC Rider said:


> Actually. when I got breakfast, I couldn't see the sleeper pax eating theirs in the other and if the car. But the cafe attendant did comp me a leftover brownie (still in its intact wrapper) from the sleeper flex dinners from the night before.
> During my rail pass I was eating a very microwaved bagel in the SSL car. I was on facebook and a passenger next door in the dining car posted a picture of her wonderful looking french toast. Of course flex food and cafe food are about the same,so not having sleepers on the Eastern trains I rode was not too bad.
> 
> I was scheduled to go on the CONO and Cresent early next month on my pass,but Hurricane Ida thwarted those plans. Next month I m getting roomettes on both trains and spending two days in New Orleans. The wonderful food in NO will offset the flex crap on both trains.


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## MARC Rider

I have always thought that the purpose of reserving sleeping car space on a train was to avoid having to sleep sitting in a recliner chair next to a total stranger who may or may not be a congenial partner. Any food service that's included in the ticket is a bonus. Thus, I consider even the flex dining to be better than nothing, even if it's not the finest cuisine in the world. As far as whether the fares are too high, well, Amtrak does have a monopoly on sleeping cars serving scheduled trains that run between the major cities of the United States and points in between. Sure, the Canadian has better service, but that doesn't help if you want to ride a train between, say, Baltimore and Chicago. There are also "private varnish" excursion trains, but not only are they a lot more expensive than the equivalent high bucket Amtrak ride, they also operate intermittently and are even less reliable as practical transportation than the most behind-schedule Amtrak long-distance train, er, actually, the "private varnish" is usually hooked to the back of one of those way late Amtrak trains.  so you're arrive as late as the Amtrak passengers do.

Actually, if I have a real beef with the downgrading of service on Amtrak long-distance trains, it's that the food offerings for coach passengers are abysmal. Coach passengers are no longer served in the dining car. The National cafe car menu was pretty limited before COVID, and now it's even worse. When I took that coach trip last June on the Capitol Limited from Pittsburgh to Washington, I would have gladly paid money for a flex breakfast omelet. As it was, I had to deal with a Jimmy Dean sandwich that was microwaved in its package, resulting in a goey mess of American cheese all over everywhere, except in the sandwich. Microwaved bread is chewy and inedible. The cafe car didn't offer any real alternative, not a bagel and cream cheese (even though that National Cafe car menu online has a bagel on the menu), not a single-serving cereal box, not a fresh fruit cup, no packaged hard boiled eggs, nothing, nada, except for the Jimmy dean sandwich and pastry. I did have the foresight to pack some stuff for lunch, basically, If I were to ride coach on a long distance trains, I'd pack most of my food, buying only snacks and drinks in the cafe car. (On that Capitol Limited trip, I should have brought one of those single serving boxes of a decent cereal like Raisin Bran or Shredded Wheat, and just bought milk and coffee in the cafe car.)


----------



## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> I have always thought that the purpose of reserving sleeping car space on a train was to avoid having to sleep sitting in a recliner chair next to a total stranger who may or may not be a congenial partner. Any food service that's included in the ticket is a bonus. Thus, I consider even the flex dining to be better than nothing, even if it's not the finest cuisine in the world. As far as whether the fares are too high, well, Amtrak does have a monopoly on sleeping cars serving scheduled trains that run between the major cities of the United States and points in between. Sure, the Canadian has better service, but that doesn't help if you want to ride a train between, say, Baltimore and Chicago. There are also "private varnish" excursion trains, but not only are they a lot more expensive than the equivalent high bucket Amtrak ride, they also operate intermittently and are even less reliable as practical transportation than the most behind-schedule Amtrak long-distance train, er, actually, the "private varnish" is usually hooked to the back of one of those way late Amtrak trains.  so you're arrive as late as the Amtrak passengers do.
> 
> Actually, if I have a real beef with the downgrading of service on Amtrak long-distance trains, it's that the food offerings for coach passengers are abysmal. Coach passengers are no longer served in the dining car. The National cafe car menu was pretty limited before COVID, and now it's even worse. When I took that coach trip last June on the Capitol Limited from Pittsburgh to Washington, I would have gladly paid money for a flex breakfast omelet. As it was, I had to deal with a Jimmy Dean sandwich that was microwaved in its package, resulting in a goey mess of American cheese all over everywhere, except in the sandwich. Microwaved bread is chewy and inedible. The cafe car didn't offer any real alternative, not a bagel and cream cheese (even though that National Cafe car menu online has a bagel on the menu), not a single-serving cereal box, not a fresh fruit cup, no packaged hard boiled eggs, nothing, nada, except for the Jimmy dean sandwich and pastry. I did have the foresight to pack some stuff for lunch, basically, If I were to ride coach on a long distance trains, I'd pack most of my food, buying only snacks and drinks in the cafe car. (On that Capitol Limited trip, I should have brought one of those single serving boxes of a decent cereal like Raisin Bran or Shredded Wheat, and just bought milk and coffee in the cafe car.)


You need to watch out. If you continue praising flex meals I think @me_little_me is gonna go after you.


Anyhow, I do agree with your point. Coach options are very limited. I'm not sure what my plan will be for my coach trip on the CS in December, I'll probably come here for help when the time comes. (Although hopefully I can upgrade to business and get access to the diner)


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## MARC Rider

Cal said:


> You need to watch out. If you continue praising flex meals I think @me_little_me is gonna go after you.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, I do agree with your point. Coach options are very limited. I'm not sure what my plan will be for my coach trip on the CS in December, I'll probably come here for help when the time comes. (Although hopefully I can upgrade to business and get access to the diner)


Who says I'm praising flex meals?  I'd love to see better quality food, in fact I'm planning to order the kosher meals for trip out to the Gathering just to avoid the flex food. In fact Amtrak has succeeded where decades of effort by my rabbis and Hebrew School teachers has failed -- Flex food has driven me to keeping kosher!  My point was that (for me, at least) the train travel experience is more than just the meals.

As for suggestions on your next trip in coach: I like the little cheese and charcuterie plates that a lot of the more upscale supermarkets sell. Not very kosher, but they're tasty. They sell a single portion of Sabra Hummus in the cafe car for 4 or 5 dollars, you can find them in the supermarket for half the price. A good deli sandwich will keep reasonably well for the first day out. For breakfast, if the bagel hasn't come back, pack a single-serving box of a decent cold cereal and buy a milk from the cafe car. Actually, you could pack your own bagels and cream cheese, as they really don't need refrigeration, as I found out from a backpacking buddy years ago. Whole fruit and also nuts and other snacks. The final menu might be a bit weird, but as long as you have the calories to keep your blood sugar in equilibrium, you should be OK for an overnight trip.


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## Cal

MARC Rider said:


> Who says I'm praising flex meals?  I'd love to see better quality food, in fact I'm planning to order the kosher meals for trip out to the Gathering just to avoid the flex food. In fact Amtrak has succeeded where decades of effort by my rabbis and Hebrew School teachers has failed -- Flex food has driven me to keeping kosher!  My point was that (for me, at least) the train travel experience is more than just the meals.
> 
> As for suggestions on your next trip in coach: I like the little cheese and charcuterie plates that a lot of the more upscale supermarkets sell. Not very kosher, but they're tasty. They sell a single portion of Sabra Hummus in the cafe car for 4 or 5 dollars, you can find them in the supermarket for half the price. A good deli sandwich will keep reasonably well for the first day out. For breakfast, if the bagel hasn't come back, pack a single-serving box of a decent cold cereal and buy a milk from the cafe car. Actually, you could pack your own bagels and cream cheese, as they really don't need refrigeration, as I found out from a backpacking buddy years ago. Whole fruit and also nuts and other snacks. The final menu might be a bit weird, but as long as you have the calories to keep your blood sugar in equilibrium, you should be OK for an overnight trip.


Bookmarked this post to come back to.


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## Danib62

I'm waiting for one of the usual suspects to come and tell you how they always bring hearty bread and peanut butter!

But I agree with MARC Rider here. The purpose of a sleeper section is to provide me a private place to snooze while on the train. Any meals I get are a bonus. If I want fine dining I can go to a very nice restaurant that will far out perform even the much ballyhooed traditional dining for a fraction of the cost of sleeper accommodations.


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## MARC Rider

Danib62 said:


> I'm waiting for one of the usual suspects to come and tell you how they always bring hearty bread and peanut butter!
> 
> But I agree with MARC Rider here. The purpose of a sleeper section is to provide me a private place to snooze while on the train. Any meals I get are a bonus. If I want fine dining I can go to a very nice restaurant that will far out perform even the much ballyhooed traditional dining for a fraction of the cost of sleeper accommodations.


In fact, I'm going to compensate for the flex food on my trip to the Gathering by having some fine dining in Chicago, if someone can suggest a good place. That's fine dining at a place that doesn't require a suit and tie.


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## jimdex

Again, this is why I think the sleeper charges and meal charges should be separate items.


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## happycarrot

If sleeper fares were lowered to more reasonable rates and did not include meal service, I would happily buy more LD sleepers. If sleeper fares remain consistent to where they are now and did not include meal service, I would be disappointed. I think a major draw for leisure LD train travel via sleeper is the inclusion of meals.


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## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> In fact, I'm going to compensate for the flex food on my trip to the Gathering by having some fine dining in Chicago, if someone can suggest a good place. That's fine dining at a place that doesn't require a suit and tie.


If they're still open, there are some really good Steakhouses in Chicago including Mortons, and Michael Jordan's in the Sears Tower( I just can't call it Willis)

I never wore a Jacket or tie to these places, just Dockers and a Dress Shirt.

Good Italian Resturants are also big in the Windy City, I'd ask AU members that have been in Chicago recently.


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## zephyr17

Berghoff's. about 1/2 mile toward the lake on Adams.


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## Sidney

zephyr17 said:


> Berghoff's. about 1/2 mile toward the lake on Adams.


Giordanos for deep dish pizza,very close


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## jiml

MARC Rider said:


> In fact, I'm going to compensate for the flex food on my trip to the Gathering by having some fine dining in Chicago, if someone can suggest a good place. That's fine dining at a place that doesn't require a suit and tie.


Sadly Lawry's Prime Rib location in Chicago has closed permanently. It was very good. It sort of depends on where you're staying and your tastebuds on the day. As has been pointed out, Italian places and steakhouses abound - both chain and independent. Some research might be needed to determine what's actually open (or still in business). Favorite restaurants seem to be failing or changing hands frequently in today's reality.


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## MARC Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> If they're still open, there are some really good Steakhouses in Chicago including Mortons, and Michael Jordan's in the Sears Tower( I just can't call it Willis)
> 
> I never wore a Jacket or tie to these places, just Dockers and a Dress Shirt.
> 
> Good Italian Resturants are also big in the Windy City, I'd ask AU members that have been in Chicago recently.


The trouble with the steakhouses (and I've been checking the menus) is that the steaks are $50 - $100 and that's a la carte. If you want a salad or side dishes, they're $10 - $15 each. Appetizers are $15-$20. Desserts are $15 ish. Then there's the drinks. I'd sure like a nice steak dinner, but I don't know if I want to pay over $100 for a dinner for one. I've been finding potential places on Google Maps. maybe I'll put out a post in the "destinations" group asking if anyone's eaten at any of these places.


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## AmtrakBlue

MARC Rider said:


> In fact, I'm going to compensate for the flex food on my trip to the Gathering by having some fine dining in Chicago, if someone can suggest a good place. That's fine dining at a place that doesn't require a suit and tie.


I may try this place out - since it's in my hotel. I hope I don't have to dress up for it. 





Weber Grill Restaurant







webergrillrestaurant.com


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## Devil's Advocate

Danib62 said:


> The purpose of a sleeper section is to provide me a private place to snooze while on the train. Any meals I get are a bonus.


Have you considered shacking up in a luggage rack? 



jimdex said:


> Again, this is why I think the sleeper charges and meal charges should be separate items.


I find it interesting how nobody who says this ever includes how much they think Amtrak will lower the price. If it was a big discount then obviously a lot of people would agree but why would Amtrak do that? Realistically the discount will probably be minimal and won't even cover meals from the cafe car.



happycarrot said:


> I think a major draw for leisure LD train travel via sleeper is the inclusion of meals.


I would not say the meals are a big draw so much as a big turnoff if I have to replace them on my own.


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## Willbridge

zephyr17 said:


> Berghoff's. about 1/2 mile toward the lake on Adams.


My favorite since my first visit in 1967. The NP Rwy. City Ticket Office agent in Portland recommended it. And last time when I pulled out my Amtrak Master Card, the waiter displayed his. Unfortunately reaching the Berghoff on some connections requires that trains arrive on time.


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## AmtrakMaineiac

MARC Rider said:


> In fact, I'm going to compensate for the flex food on my trip to the Gathering by having some fine dining in Chicago, if someone can suggest a good place. That's fine dining at a place that doesn't require a suit and tie.


Remington's on Michigan Avenue North of Madison is great for steaks and seafood.


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## Nick Farr

MARC Rider said:


> The trouble with the steakhouses (and I've been checking the menus) is that the steaks are $50 - $100 and that's a la carte. If you want a salad or side dishes, they're $10 - $15 each. Appetizers are $15-$20. Desserts are $15 ish. Then there's the drinks. I'd sure like a nice steak dinner, but I don't know if I want to pay over $100 for a dinner for one. I've been finding potential places on Google Maps. maybe I'll put out a post in the "destinations" group asking if anyone's eaten at any of these places.



As far as fine dining that's far better selection/value for what you pay, I'd recommend Le Colonial. I've never had a bad experience there and even gone in Carhartts.









Le Colonial, Chicago's Famed Vietnamese Restaurant | Home


Located amist bustling Rush Street, Le Colonial features a first floor dining room, seasonal sidewalk cafe on the first floor and a bar, lounge and all season terrace overlooking Rush Street on the second floor.




www.lecolonialchicago.com


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## jimdex

happycarrot said:


> If sleeper fares were lowered to more reasonable rates and did not include meal service, I would happily buy more LD sleepers. If sleeper fares remain consistent to where they are now and did not include meal service, I would be disappointed. I think a major draw for leisure LD train travel via sleeper is the inclusion of meals.


Sleeper fares are at least theoretically set by supply and demand. Eliminating the complimentary meals would, as you suggest, reduce demand, which would in turn lead to lower fares. Then I would have the option of buying my meals in the dining car, buying food in the snack car, or buying dinner at a restaurant before I get on the train.


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## Nick Farr

jimdex said:


> Sleeper fares are at least theoretically set by supply and demand. Eliminating the complimentary meals would, as you suggest, reduce demand, which would in turn lead to lower fares. Then I would have the option of buying my meals in the dining car, buying food in the snack car, or buying dinner at a restaurant before I get on the train.



Making meals optional on the sleepers creates many more problems than it solves. The savings isn't going to be much more than a difference between buckets. 

For that, you'll have hungry passengers who didn't realize their tickets didn't have meals, OBS barking for proof from customers who do and altogether more support from everyone for killing off the dining cars altogether.

For the same energy spent to change the booking software and retraining the staff, Amtrak could just upgrade the dining experience.


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## MARC Rider

Nick Farr said:


> Making meals optional on the sleepers creates many more problems than it solves. The savings isn't going to be much more than a difference between buckets.
> 
> For that, you'll have hungry passengers who didn't realize their tickets didn't have meals, OBS barking for proof from customers who do and altogether more support from everyone for killing off the dining cars altogether.
> 
> For the same energy spent to change the booking software and retraining the staff, Amtrak could just upgrade the dining experience.


I rode the long-distance trains before meals were included in sleeping car fares, and there were no problems with food service. Most passengers (especially in coach) just brought their own food, and the dining cars were run a lot more efficiently than now and were able to serve everybody without muss or fuss. The worst experience I was was in a diner on the Crescent in 1990 where I paid for dinner using a credit card. Took forever for them to complete the transaction, but, to be fair, wireless technology was in its infancy then.

But I don't think that eliminating included meals will have much effect on sleeping car prices. Maybe a little, as the Silver Starvation experiment showed, but I really do think that people ride the train for the purpose of traveling by riding the train, not to have some sort of dining experience. And Amtrak, as a government-subsidized entity, probably only needs to provide the minimum needed to keep people riding the train, not to keep up the standards of wannabe Lucius Beebees.


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## me_little_me

Meals are not a bonus. They are part of the accommodation charges. The contention that they are just a bonus is like an all-inclusive resort saying the meals are a bonus and you are just paying for the room.


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## toddinde

happycarrot said:


> If sleeper fares were lowered to more reasonable rates and did not include meal service, I would happily buy more LD sleepers. If sleeper fares remain consistent to where they are now and did not include meal service, I would be disappointed. I think a major draw for leisure LD train travel via sleeper is the inclusion of meals.


Sleepers are usually sold out at the higher fares, so filling sleepers isn’t the problem. Having a guaranteed number of meals sold helps the dining car’s bottom line, thus the reason for including meals. I’m not sure personally how I feel about it. If it’s included, I’m sure not going to miss a meal. If it wasn’t, I would probably patronize the cafe for a couple meals or bring more food onboard with me like I do when I travel coach.


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## MARC Rider

me_little_me said:


> Meals are not a bonus. They are part of the accommodation charges.


Was that handed down from Mt. Sinai on two stone tablets? In the past, sleeping cars didn't include meals, and there's no reason why Amtrak can't go back to that, if it's to their advantage. The main point of a sleeping car accommodation is the privacy and the lie-flat sleeping. This is a common-carrier train, after all, not some sort of rolling resort.


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## crescent-zephyr

MARC Rider said:


> Was that handed down from Mt. Sinai on two stone tablets? In the past, sleeping cars didn't include meals, and there's no reason why Amtrak can't go back to that, if it's to their advantage. The main point of a sleeping car accommodation is the privacy and the lie-flat sleeping. This is a common-carrier train, after all, not some sort of rolling resort.



Meals don’t have to be provided in first class on airlines either.


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## Exvalley

It's one thing for meals to not be included on a European train that leaves at 10:00 PM and arrives at 7:00 AM. But Amtrak needs to have meals on its overnight trains except on the Northeast Corridor. And if they need to have meals they might as well include them in the room fare to guarantee a steady revenue stream.



MARC Rider said:


> I like the little cheese and charcuterie plates that a lot of the more upscale supermarkets sell.


This is an excellent idea for the café cars. The airlines have some very decent snack boxes with salami, hummus, olives, etc. So we know that it can be done. It's a nice change from the microwaved cheeseburger.


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## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> The main point of a sleeping car accommodation is the privacy and the lie-flat sleeping.


The main point of choosing a sleeper is up to the customer making that choice.



MARC Rider said:


> This is a common-carrier train, after all, not some sort of rolling resort.


It may not feel like a rolling resort but it sure costs resort level money.


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## flitcraft

The idea that Amtrak would significantly reduce sleeper fares if they unbundled meals is, I think, a pipe dream. Prices tend to be 'slippery up' and 'sticky down.' 

The fact that traditional dining is back, and apparently even improved over the traditional dining that we lost, means that Amtrak has recognized its value in promoting sleeper ticket sales. The outcry over flex meals in the sleepers--and it wasn't just here--was heard loud and clear by Amtrak. I don't doubt that some folks didn't care at all about meals LD trains, and still don't. I believe that Amtrak concluded that those folks were in the minority.


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## me_little_me

MARC Rider said:


> Was that handed down from Mt. Sinai on two stone tablets? In the past, sleeping cars didn't include meals, and there's no reason why Amtrak can't go back to that, if it's to their advantage. The main point of a sleeping car accommodation is the privacy and the lie-flat sleeping. This is a common-carrier train, after all, not some sort of rolling resort.


So what? They can state that from a certain date on, they no longer will be supplying meals and they are not lowering the fares. However, your accommodation charge now includes meals and therefore they need to provide them. Moreover, should they change their mind for any reason, you would be entitled to cancel your reservation without penalty. That's exactly what I did in June when they decided not to implement the traditional meals they had just, that same day, told me were being provided and instead extended flex.


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## Nick Farr

MARC Rider said:


> In the past, sleeping cars didn't include meals, and there's no reason why Amtrak can't go back to that, if it's to their advantage.



It's not really to their advantage, unless they want to kill dining on the LD trains. My reasoning is that switching would be a herculean retraining headache for the staff on top of yet another thing to add to their antiquated booking system.


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## Cal

Nick Farr said:


> It's not really to their advantage, unless they want to kill dining on the LD trains. My reasoning is that switching would be a herculean retraining headache for the staff on top of yet another thing to add to their antiquated booking system.


I agree. As others have also said, it would be a great way to kill of the dining car.


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## lordsigma

me_little_me said:


> So what? They can state that from a certain date on, they no longer will be supplying meals and they are not lowering the fares. However, your accommodation charge now includes meals and therefore they need to provide them. Moreover, should they change their mind for any reason, you would be entitled to cancel your reservation without penalty. That's exactly what I did in June when they decided not to implement the traditional meals they had just, that same day, told me were being provided and instead extended flex.


 
While I agree with the main point of your post about refunds being owed if amenities change, I have to respectively disagree with the premise the month or so delay that occurred in restoring traditional dining was malicious or nefarious in any way that your post seems to hint at. I think they did the restoration at the earliest possible point when they could get enough people recalled and get the logistics worked out. Given the labor shortages everywhere I would not have been surprised if they had to push it back even further and was pleasantly surprised that I managed to get it on one leg of my late June trip. It stinks that your trip ended up in that month delay and I totally understand your disappointment but at least they refunded you to their credit. I hope you have been able to reschedule your trip now that dining has returned.


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## toddinde

crescent-zephyr said:


> Meals don’t have to be provided in first class on airlines either.


Sometimes they are and sometimes they’re not. I’ve gotten a decent meal in First Class on the airlines, and I’ve gotten a banana and crackers other times. It’s seemingly inexplicable.


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## toddinde

MARC Rider said:


> The trouble with the steakhouses (and I've been checking the menus) is that the steaks are $50 - $100 and that's a la carte. If you want a salad or side dishes, they're $10 - $15 each. Appetizers are $15-$20. Desserts are $15 ish. Then there's the drinks. I'd sure like a nice steak dinner, but I don't know if I want to pay over $100 for a dinner for one. I've been finding potential places on Google Maps. maybe I'll put out a post in the "destinations" group asking if anyone's eaten at any of these places.


If you’re looking for a value in Chicago, it’s tough. Chicago is an extremely expensive city. My recommendation is the Italian Village or Miller’s Pub. Both are excellent.


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## crescent-zephyr

toddinde said:


> Sometimes they are and sometimes they’re not. I’ve gotten a decent meal in First Class on the airlines, and I’ve gotten a banana and crackers other times. It’s seemingly inexplicable.



It is the exact opposite of inexplicable. Flights of certain durations have different services. That will change a bit from airline to airline but it all makes sense.


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## Cal

crescent-zephyr said:


> It is the exact opposite of inexplicable. Flights of certain durations have different services. That will change a bit from airline to airline but it all makes sense.


Although I did this video where the following is stated:

"Alaska Airlines recently announced the return of hot meals on transcontinental flights and flights to Hawaii." This flight was from Raleigh to Seattle, and a hot meal wasn't served. 

So it also depends on other factors, perhaps the amount of competition (as there is less competition, no need to elevate meals to compete with others?), or the catering in airports.


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