# Sharing Room / Roommate



## Darryl (Mar 15, 2011)

I will be heading out on the Empire Builder from Portland to St. Paul on Wednesday the 16th and am looking at the possibility of a room mate. The thought of having electricity for my laptop and access to showers would be nice but to book a roomette on my own is out of my budget. Is there a way to find out if someone is willing to share their room or take a room mate?


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## ACVitale (Mar 15, 2011)

Darryl said:


> I will be heading out on the Empire Builder from Portland to St. Paul on Wednesday the 16th and am looking at the possibility of a room mate. The thought of having electricity for my laptop and access to showers would be nice but to book a roomette on my own is out of my budget. Is there a way to find out if someone is willing to share their room or take a room mate?



Try Craigslist or any train boards?


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 15, 2011)

I wouldn't trust craigslist for that at the moment.


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## rrdude (Mar 15, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> I wouldn't trust craigslist for that at the moment.


Depending upon your level of comfort with personal safety, etc., I'd absolutely put up a post on CraigsList. It's the modern equiv of classifieds, and college "Ride Boards" all wrapped up into one.

You can certainly MAKE the reservation, and as long as you don't PRINT the tickets, and CANCEL a week out, you''ll get a 100% refund, if you decide to downgrade to coach, or CANX the trip altogether.

Remember, roomettes are VERY TIGHT, so if at all possible, I'd certainly meet the individual for coffee / soda / cocktails before spending a night with them. You certainly don't need to "sit" in the roomette at all if you don't want to, I hardly ever too. I'm usually "camped out" in the SightSeer Lounge car. (SSL) I only use the roomette to crash at night.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 15, 2011)

I probably wouldn't trust Craigslist either. Even just to meet up with strangers for a drink. Having had a look through the personals those folks seem to have issues. AU has a subforum where you can post your upcoming trips. I suppose it could be used to solicit invitations for roommates among the other members if you really wanted one? In any case if I was going to invite anyone to a sleeper compartment it wouldn't be a total stranger. It would have to be a friend or family member or a love interest I was pretty familiar with. You're stuck in very close proximity for a rather extended period with few places to go if things don't work out. There are enough potential mismatches in hygiene and modesty to make me think twice anyway. That doesn't even include the slight but real potential for malicious activity. But maybe that's just me. Maybe other folks wouldn't mind sharing close quarters with relative strangers. In larger cities and metros you can sometimes find travel clubs and maybe setup something with one or more of them once you've gotten to know each other.


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## MrFSS (Mar 15, 2011)

daxomni said:


> AU has a subforum where you can post your upcoming trips. I suppose it could be used to solicit invitations for roommates among the other members if you really wanted one?


That forum can't be seen by guests (as the OP is) and we prefer members not engage in this activity in the forum. PM contact is OK, but guests can't PM, either.


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## the_traveler (Mar 15, 2011)

I've have (or will) only shared a sleeper with 3 "strangers" - but they were (are) those I know from here on AU!




(And how much more strange can you get?



)

Unless I knew someone well, or like on AU for a long time, I personally would be very cautious and not do it.


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## Darryl (Mar 15, 2011)

I appreciate the heads up. The main reason I wanted to share a room was to have access to 110v power for my laptop and showers. From what I have read there aren't power outlets in coach. That would require an upgrade. Anyone have any suggestions on where I can plug my laptop in?


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 15, 2011)

Darryl said:


> I appreciate the heads up. The main reason I wanted to share a room was to have access to 110v power for my laptop and showers. From what I have read there aren't power outlets in coach. That would require an upgrade. Anyone have any suggestions on where I can plug my laptop in?


Although there is no specific guarantee of a power outlet, many (if not most) coach and lounge cars have now been retrofitted with standard power supplies at each set of seats. Even if you happen to end up in a car that does not have power supplies there will almost certainly be some in the lounge car. If you take a power strip with you then even if none of your train's cars have been updated (highly unlikely) and all the original power jacks are in use you can simply add your device without having to permanently unplug anyone else. It's a great solution that's likely to work in any situation. No need for a sleeper if your primary concern is just the power supply.


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## GG-1 (Mar 15, 2011)

Darryl said:


> I appreciate the heads up. The main reason I wanted to share a room was to have access to 110v power for my laptop and showers. From what I have read there aren't power outlets in coach. That would require an upgrade. Anyone have any suggestions on where I can plug my laptop in?


Aloha

All coaches have power outlets, the cleaners need it for the vacuum. As best I can remember the unconverted one's had outlets at seat 19 and 55

the majority have outlets at every seat. The lounge has a duplex in the center service area which is not manned. A very good idea is to carry a multi outlet plug or strip, or even a surge protector. The access to Showers does not exist for coach passengers.


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## the_traveler (Mar 16, 2011)

Darryl said:


> The main reason I wanted to share a room was to have access to 110v power for my laptop and showers. From what I have read there aren't power outlets in coach.


As said, most coaches have now been refurbished and have power at each row. When the cars were built 30+ years ago, not everyone had laptops/netbooks, DVD players, cell phones, GPS, etc... - thus 2 plugs per car were enough for the cleaners. Based on what I have seen, your chances that your car will have at-seat power is 90% or higher!





If for some reason your car does not, walk to other cars, and if you see a seat open with a plug, ask that car's attendant if you can move. (The likely answer is yes!) Then tell your original car's attendant that you are moving (so he/she knows that seat is available). I've done this the few times I've gone coach and did not have at-seat power.

But there are no showers available for coach passengers at all. If you must have a shower, you will need to pay for a sleeper.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

GG-1 said:


> The access to Showers does not exist for coach passengers.


&


the_traveler said:


> There are no showers available for coach passengers at all. If you must have a shower, you will need to pay for a sleeper.


If Amtrak ever wanted me to quadruple my train travel all they'd have to do is provide shower access to coach passengers. They could even charge a fee for the privilege. Or they could add bring showers back to the stations. Either way I'd be much happier and be riding a lot more often. Seems like a win-win to me, but for some reason Amtrak appears to be completely against it. When NARP lobbied for coach access to showers they were told coach passengers could just clean themselves with a rag in the bathroom. Thanks, but no thanks.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 16, 2011)

rrdude said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't trust craigslist for that at the moment.
> ...


not with the string of murders going on


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## the_traveler (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> GG-1 said:
> 
> 
> > The access to Showers does not exist for coach passengers.
> ...


If you think the coach bathrooms are dirty (especially on an Eastern LD train), could you imagine what the showers would look like?



Shutter the thought!


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> not with the string of murders going on


It's true that there are folks who may attempt to scam or otherwise harm or humiliate you, but statistically it's exceptionally rare to bump into a determined murderer through a simple craigslist ad. Mild mental problems and lack of proper education appear to be extremely common, but I wouldn't expect to be killed just because I met up with someone from CL.



the_traveler said:


> If you think the coach bathrooms are dirty (especially on an Eastern LD train), could you imagine what the showers would look like? Shutter the thought!


I have two responses to that.

1. Put the showers in the stations. Oh, wait, I already said that.

2. Amtrak can take the additional revenue from shower service fees and pay their staff to actually CLEAN the showers when they get dirty.

Take your pick, I would be happy with either. I really don't understand the never ending desire to keep coach passengers out of the showers. It's not even a money making issue when you consider how many sleeper trains sell out of their entire stock of compartments, leaving no showers for late purchasers any price. I understand that either solution would require some extra work from service and maintenance staff, but it might fill up those coach seats when all the sleepers are long gone. Personally I'd rather *everyone* was able to get cleaned up for dinner so we could enjoy each others company without any fear of completely unnecessary odors.


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## Darryl (Mar 16, 2011)

When I originally thought about booking Amtrak for this 3 day journey, I was concerned about not having access to showers. Depending on how I feel when I arrive in MSP will help me decide if I book Amtrak next time.

Its good to know the odds are good I will find electricity for my laptop. When I called Amtrak Customer Service, they told me the only outlets were in the roomettes.

Glad I found this forum.

Thanks guys.


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## alanh (Mar 16, 2011)

For what it's worth, sharing sleeping compartments is common outside the US. On the Moscow to St. Petersburg sleepers, I was in a 4-bed compartment with a friend. The other two bunks were other passengers. They don't even separate by gender; we had two women in the cabin on one leg.

For someone intent on doing Bad Things, a train ride isn't really ideal. It's a substantial investment for the sleeper ticket, plus there's nowhere to escape to.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

Darryl said:


> When I originally thought about booking Amtrak for this 3 day journey, I was concerned about not having access to showers. Depending on how I feel when I arrive in MSP will help me decide if I book Amtrak next time. Its good to know the odds are good I will find electricity for my laptop. When I called Amtrak Customer Service, they told me the only outlets were in the roomettes.


Showers on the train are great for overnight journeys. If you find that coach class doesn't cut it then try the roomette on your _next_ journey. If anything goes horribly wrong call and demand a voucher. Even if you never intend to use it the voucher creates a paper trail that will hopefully help push the managers to address poorly performing staff to improve or find other work.



alanh said:


> For someone intent on doing Bad Things, a train ride isn't really ideal. It's a substantial investment for the sleeper ticket, plus there's nowhere to escape to.


I agree with you. Nevertheless, during the time I've been on AU I've noticed multiple stories of people "accidentally" falling from the train to their deaths while the police simply shrug and assume it was just pure chance. Even when they do suspect foul play they don't seem to have a great record of finding the perpetrator. Heck, they seem to have difficulty even determining who should be in charge of what. When you consider how many millions of passengers ride Amtrak without incident it's obvious that getting thrown off the train isn't common enough for average folks to worry about, but it certainly isn't an impossible crime from the looks of it.


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## PerRock (Mar 16, 2011)

I wonder if Couch Surfing has space for people wishing to share a bedroom on a train... Couch Surfing tends to be more reliable & safer then Craigs List. (especially over seas, where they are less paranoid then us.)

peter


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## haolerider (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> amtrakwolverine said:
> 
> 
> > not with the string of murders going on
> ...


Acces to the showers is one of the primary benefits of booking a sleeper and I see no reason to allow coach passengers to use the facilities. Who is going to control who has access at specific times of the day? When you book a first class ticket on a plane, you assume you are not going to have to use one of the coach bathrooms, but have access to the first class bathroom, which is closer to your seat. It is not a "class issues", but the fact taht you have paid for the privilege of having access to something the coach passengers don't have. As a sleeping car passenger, I assume there will be controlled access to my car and I really don't want coach passengers - who knows how many - walking through my car. I have had to wait to get access to the shower with other sleeping car passengers and I see no reason to increase the number of people using the facility.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

haolerider said:


> Acces to the showers is one of the primary benefits of booking a sleeper and I see no reason to allow coach passengers to use the facilities.


Here are two reasons you may have missed.

*1. More revenue for Amtrak.* The sleeper compartments on the trains I ride sell out on a regular basis. Coach almost never sells out. Non-existant sleeper tickets combined with zero-access coach seats often leaves me and other folks with fewer options for riding Amtrak. If showers were available to coach passengers Amtrak could potentially make additional revenue from increased coach ticket sales to folks like me and/or from shower related surcharges. Some of that additional revenue could be used for improved cleaning schedules to address the additional use. It's a win-win for everyone involved.

*2. Cleaner facilities for everyone.* You can't control who you sit with or who sat in the seat before you. Would you rather the filth of several day's worth of sweat and grime end up down the shower drain or on your lounge seat and table? It doesn't even need to be in the sleeper car. It could be in a modified coach car or lounge car for all I care. It could even be in a modified baggage car if Amtrak could find a way to make _that_ work. And of course the stations themselves could bring back rented shower rooms as well. Narita airport serves as a hub for Asian airline travel and charges 500円 (about $5) for 30 minutes use of an immaculately maintained shower room. The airport administrators understood that giving passengers a cheap and efficient method for cleaning up after a long trip in a coach seat benefits everyone, including their service staff and cleaning crews. Again, it's a win-win.



haolerider said:


> Who is going to control who has access at specific times of the day?


The same people who currently control access. Ideally you'd be able to schedule a shower time shortly after boarding or when you reserve by phone or web site before your trip.



haolerider said:


> When you book a first class ticket on a plane, you assume you are not going to have to use one of the coach bathrooms, but have access to the first class bathroom, which is closer to your seat.


How will this force anyone in a sleeper to use a bathroom in a coach car? Even if Amtrak used the showers in the sleeper cars the sleeper passengers would get priority and the shower would be cleaned more often from additional revenues and/or direct surcharges. If sleeper folks have to wait more than a few extra minutes for the shower to become available then the plan I'm proposing isn't being followed.



haolerider said:


> It is not a "class issues", but the fact taht you have paid for the privilege of having access to something the coach passengers don't have.


I can't reserve a room for any given date eleven months in advance like some folks can. When I need to buy a specific train for a specific date a couple weeks or even a couple months out and every sleeper compartment is already long gone Amtrak ends up losing money and I end up losing out on another train ride. Nobody benefits from that outcome.



haolerider said:


> As a sleeping car passenger, I assume there will be controlled access to my car and I really don't want coach passengers - who knows how many - walking through my car.


So, basically, it *is* a class issue? Never mind that the same folks who ride coach also ride sleepers as reservations and budgets permit. If you want true exclusivity then go rent a private car. Otherwise you're really no different from any of the rest of us sitting next to you in the lounge and diner. Seriously.



haolerider said:


> I have had to wait to get access to the shower with other sleeping car passengers and I s the see no reason to increase the number of people using the facility.


When you've had to wait _days_ to get access to a shower then feel free to let me know about it.


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## the_traveler (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> Amtrak can take the additional revenue from shower service fees and pay their staff to actually CLEAN the showers when they get dirty.


So you're saying that Amtrak should hire a ShA (Shower Attendant) whose *ONLY* job is to sit by the shower and clean it after *EVERY* coach passenger using the shower?



BTW - It is in the CA (car attendant) duties to clean the bathrooms when he/she finds time. But with 70+ passengers per car, he/she may not find time as often as you like. (And I admit, some may be lazy and not do it anyway)

And would it also be the ShA's duty to collect the fee and distribute the towels to those that pay?


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## rrdude (Mar 16, 2011)

amtrakwolverine said:


> rrdude said:
> 
> 
> > amtrakwolverine said:
> ...


Based on the number of post that Craig's List has, I'd hardly call it a "String".

Beside, Amtrak is one of only a few railroads worldwide that don't combine passengers in sleeping compartments, people who don't know each other, but are willing to pay a few dollars more for a flat bed, but not a ton more for a truly private room.

Would I advise my daughter, wife, or younger son to do this? No way. Would I do it? In a heartbeat.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak can take the additional revenue from shower service fees and pay their staff to actually CLEAN the showers when they get dirty.
> ...


There would be no exclusive shower cleaner sitting around waiting for something to do. The attendant already staffing the car would handle the on-board cleanings with station based maintenance staff handling the water/effluent and heavy duty cleanings.



the_traveler said:


> BTW - It is in the CA (car attendant) duties to clean the bathrooms when he/she finds time. But with 70+ passengers per car, he/she may not find time as often as you like. (And I admit, some may be lazy and not do it anyway)


Dirty showers and toilets should result in vouchers. Vouchers should result in disciplinary action. Repeated failures to perform to job expectations should result in additional training or reassignment to remedial work details.



the_traveler said:


> And would it also be the ShA's duty to collect the fee and distribute the towels to those that pay?


I envision something like a shower pass sold in the lounge. Presumably they'd have a list of available time slots. It would also be a free option for sleeper passengers to choose their preferred times while booking their room. Something like that.


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## the_traveler (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> haolerider said:
> 
> 
> > Who is going to control who has access at specific times of the day?
> ...


I hate to tell you but *NOBODY* schedules shower time in sleepers!



It's first come - first served. Most times I get right in - even at "rush hour" - 7 or 8 AM! I think the longest "line" I had was *1 person* - who was just getting out!







haolerider said:


> I have had to wait to get access to the shower with other sleeping car passengers and I s the see no reason to increase the number of people using the facility.





> When you've had to wait _days_ to get access to a shower then feel free to let me know about it.


Remember that in the 1960's and prior, there was only 1 shower on the train - and that was in the *MOST EXPENSIVE ROOM* for use by that room only! No other sleeper passenger or coach passenger has use of a shower for days on end - and they still survived!


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> I hate to tell you but *NOBODY* schedules shower time in sleepers!


Yes, I'm well aware of that. Obviously this would change under my proposal.



the_traveler said:


> It's first come - first served. Most times I get right in - even at "rush hour" - 7 or 8 AM! I think the longest "line" I had was *1 person* - who was just getting out!


You might have to wait a little longer if my plan ever came to fruition. But since you apparently remember a time when trains hardly had any showers I'd imagine you'd find a way to deal with a few extra minutes of wait time.



the_traveler said:


> Remember that in the 1960's and prior, there was only 1 shower on the train - and that was in the *MOST EXPENSIVE ROOM* for use by that room only! No other sleeper passenger or coach passenger has use of a shower for days on end - and they still survived!


All throughout my life showers have never been more than maybe 15 hours away at most. Except when traveling in coach on Amtrak where they can suddenly be forty hours away or more. My suggestion aims to address that. Also, I can read you just fine with normal text so please stop with all the bolding and capitalizing and exclaiming.

>>>*THANKS IN ADVANCE**!*<<<


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## lthanlon (Mar 16, 2011)

The times I've been unable to travel in a sleeper, I've brought a small package of baby-wipe type of towlettes. Being able to freshen up this way has made all the difference.


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## Ryan (Mar 16, 2011)

This sounds like another "solution in search of a problem" to me...

I've done my share of overnights in coach, and haven't had any problem waiting to get a shower until I get to my destination.


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## haolerider (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > daxomni said:
> ...


All your arguements and statements notwithstanding, I still see this as a definite "no-go".

As Traveler mentioned, the current procedure finds the SCA not always cleaning the showers as often as needed, and I have no idea who is going to issue the "vouchers" you mention. The Conductor? His/her job is to run the train safely and they are not supervisors of the on-board crew.

Also, I don't know who you mean when you mention the station maintenance staff, who you envision handling the watering of the train. Most stations do not have maintenance staff and most are staffed to a minimal level, sometimes barely able to handle ticketing, boarding, baggage, etc.

I am not about to calculate the potential revenue from your proposal, but in my opinion it would not be sufficient to cover the potential extra work.

Open access showers is still a "no-go". I believe there are far more serious issues to tackle for Amtrak than showers for everyone.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

Ryan said:


> This sounds like another "solution in search of a problem" to me. I've done my share of overnights in coach, and haven't had any problem waiting to get a shower until I get to my destination.


That depends on what you consider the problem to be. For me it's easy access to shower facilities. It's possible I'm the only potential coach passenger who would be swayed toward more train travel with improved access to showers, but I doubt it. For Amtrak the problem is filling every available seat and collecting as much revenue as possible to improve their bottom line and to help make the case for continued or expanded government support. I'd be fine with additional sleeper compartments from an order of brand new world class sleeper cars, but since that seems to be a rather difficult order to procure under the current circumstances I have proposed an alternative.



haolerider said:


> As Traveler mentioned, the current procedure finds the SCA not always cleaning the showers as often as needed, and I have no idea who is going to issue the "vouchers" you mention. The Conductor? His/her job is to run the train safely and they are not supervisors of the on-board crew.


Vouchers would be provided by the same people who currently provide vouchers, not the on-board crew.



haolerider said:


> Also, I don't know who you mean when you mention the station maintenance staff, who you envision handling the watering of the train. Most stations do not have maintenance staff and most are staffed to a minimal level, sometimes barely able to handle ticketing, boarding, baggage, etc.


It's quite possible that additional staff would be needed at a few midpoint stations, either to handle in-station shower cleaning at longer stops or to maintain onboard showers at midpoints in a long distance journey. It's also possible that some of this could be mitigated by other options, such as showers that control water usage or by adding additional shower facilities to coach and/or lounge cars.



haolerider said:


> I am not about to calculate the potential revenue from your proposal, but in my opinion it would not be sufficient to cover the potential extra work. Open access showers is still a "no-go". I believe there are far more serious issues to tackle for Amtrak than showers for everyone.


I would agree that this proposal will never see the light of day. Amtrak has already said as much. I would also agree that any additional revenue would take time to build up and would start out at as a loss. I would even agree that Amtrak has far more serious issues to tackle than showers on long-distance routes. Which should not be surprising in the least considering that I never once claimed otherwise.


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## anir dendroica (Mar 16, 2011)

PerRock said:


> I wonder if Couch Surfing has space for people wishing to share a bedroom on a train... Couch Surfing tends to be more reliable & safer then Craigs List. (especially over seas, where they are less paranoid then us.)
> 
> peter


CouchSurfing (http://www.couchsurfing.org/) would probably be a good place to look for a roomette-mate, especially if you are leaving from one of the larger cities. I've hosted about 50 'surfers at my place over the past three years and haven't run into any bad apples.

We in America seem to have an irrational fear of strangers, buoyed by transportation systems (in particular private automobiles) that allow us to avoid casual contact with strangers and sensational reporting of the (statistically very rare) occurrence of Craigslist attacks. Personally I feel we are worse off for it. I've ridden trains in Sweden where strangers share compartments as a matter of course, with no fear of foul play.


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## Trogdor (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to tell you but *NOBODY* schedules shower time in sleepers!
> ...


So, you want to fix something that isn't broken? I can only see that as being a negative.



daxomni said:


> That depends on what you consider the problem to be. For me it's easy access to shower facilities. It's possible I'm the only potential coach passenger who would be swayed toward more train travel with improved access to showers, but I doubt it. For Amtrak the problem is filling every available seat and collecting as much revenue as possible to improve their bottom line and to help make the case for continued or expanded government support. I'd be fine with additional sleeper compartments from an order of brand new world class sleeper cars, but since that seems to be a rather difficult order to procure under the current circumstances I have proposed an alternative.


An alternative that would add more cost than revenue (see below).



> It's quite possible that additional staff would be needed at a few midpoint stations, either to handle in-station shower cleaning at longer stops or to maintain onboard showers at midpoints in a long distance journey. It's also possible that some of this could be mitigated by other options, such as showers that control water usage or by adding additional shower facilities to coach and/or lounge cars.


First off, for the in-station shower idea, since Amtrak owns very few stations, it wouldn't really be up to Amtrak to decide whether or not to provide shower facilities in most cases. As for adding staff to clean/maintain the showers, that's a pretty steep cost to cover, and it would be extremely difficult to pay for it with whatever shower fees you charge. Putting additional showers on the trains is a non-starter. Installing showers costs money (and takes up space that could be used for other things). Plumbing costs money. Plumbing maintenance costs money. Watering the cars perhaps doesn't cost money (at least, not all that much), but it takes time, which either adds to station dwells (which costs money) or increases the time required to service the train in the yard (which...you get the idea).

Adding showers to lounge cars? Easily the worst idea of the bunch.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

Trogdor said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


I happen to believe that lack of shower access for coach passengers is a pretty big knock for long trips. The resident sleeper passengers strongly disagree with me. No surprises there.



Trogdor said:


> An alternative that would add more cost than revenue (see below).


Initially yes. Over time that's hard to say since I'm not aware of any previous example to compare it to.



Trogdor said:


> First off, for the in-station shower idea, since Amtrak owns very few stations, it wouldn't really be up to Amtrak to decide whether or not to provide shower facilities in most cases.


It's true that Amtrak would not be able to unilaterally decide which stations got showers and which did not, but I don't believe that's enough to rule it out completely.



Trogdor said:


> As for adding staff to clean/maintain the showers, that's a pretty steep cost to cover, and it would be extremely difficult to pay for it with whatever shower fees you charge.


Ideally revenue from direct shower fees _and_ increased ticket sales from folks like me would be enough to eventually cover the expense. Even if it wasn't enough how would that be any different from the rest of Amtrak's partially-recovered expenses? It's amazing (and amusing) how AU members tend to set surprisingly high bars for suggestions about improving a company that has never once turned a profit and in all likelihood never will.



Trogdor said:


> Putting additional showers on the trains is a non-starter. Installing showers costs money (and takes up space that could be used for other things). Plumbing costs money. Plumbing maintenance costs money. Watering the cars perhaps doesn't cost money (at least, not all that much), but it takes time, which either adds to station dwells (which costs money) or increases the time required to service the train in the yard (which...you get the idea). Adding showers to lounge cars? Easily the worst idea of the bunch.


No, the worst idea of the bunch was trying to suggest a solution for coach passengers on a forum devoted exclusively to sleeper royalty. :lol:


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## Ryan (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> I happen to believe that lack of shower access for coach passengers is a pretty big knock for long trips. The resident sleeper passengers strongly disagree with me. No surprises there.





> No, the worst idea of the bunch was trying to suggest a solution for coach passengers on a forum devoted exclusively to sleeper royalty. :lol:


I disagree with your assessment of folks on the forum. Sure there are some people here that wouldn't dare spend the night in coach, but there are plenty of us that do.


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## haolerider (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> > daxomni said:
> ...


I happen to think you are way off base with this comment, but given the fact that many members of this forum are heavy Amtrak travelers, they are more than likely to earn AGR points and use them to access the sleepers. I would be curious to know how many members of this forum you have met and really know. My take is that there is a pretty good mix of coach and sleeping car passengers participating and that the financial considerations dictate where people ride - along with the AGR situations. If you want to call anyone "royalty", you might go the sites that are concerned with owners of private cars - there is the Royalty!


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## the_traveler (Mar 16, 2011)

daxomni said:


> Or they could add bring showers back to the stations.


I can just read the headlines in a few years!



> The California Zephyr was delayed for 2 hours in Omaha, NB due to the line of 50 coach passengers waiting to use the shower at the station. It was the delayed 3 hours more at Grand Junction, CO due to the 75 coach passengers waiting for the station's shower!















I wonder how many taxpayers will write their congressman/women and say "cut Amtrak funding if we have 5 hour late trains every day"!

And if you add a shower to the coaches, which bathroom do you remove?



And if (as you said) it's in just one car, if you think it's hard to walk (for most people) with 2 hands available, how hard is it going to be to walk with your dirty clothes in one hand?



And do you want to be carrying your (not so) "tidy whities" thru 3-5 cars - maybe even the Dining Car at meal time?





Please let's agree to disagree!



(I didn't even use any bold letters!)


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 16, 2011)

Ryan said:


> I disagree with your assessment of folks on the forum. Sure there are some people here that wouldn't dare spend the night in coach, but there are plenty of us that do.


That last line wasn't an assessment so much as a bit of a joke. 

If you stick around long enough you indeed find that most everyone here has traveled by coach on the LD network at some point. And yet if you bring up issues and concerns that are exclusive to coach travel you'll get so many anti-coach diatribes you'd think only fools would ever set food in a coach car for more than a few hours. It's a paradox I can't fully explain and probably wouldn't even attempt to, but that's not really my concern anyway. What I'm more interested in is improving the coach class experience for those who either can't afford sleeper tickets or who simply aren't able to reserve them far enough in advance to get a sleeper at any cost.



haolerider said:


> I happen to think you are way off base with this comment, but given the fact that many members of this forum are heavy Amtrak travelers, they are more than likely to earn AGR points and use them to access the sleepers. I would be curious to know how many members of this forum you have met and really know. My take is that there is a pretty good mix of coach and sleeping car passengers participating and that the financial considerations dictate where people ride - along with the AGR situations. If you want to call anyone "royalty", you might go the sites that are concerned with owners of private cars - there is the Royalty!


Of course I'm off base. Thankfully it was just a joke. They way you can tell is that it had one of those little smiley face things. That's not to say all my jokes are funny or in good taste, but that's probably a different discussion for another time. -_-



the_traveler said:


> Please let's agree to disagree!


Not a problem. I'm more than willing to bury the hatchet, so to speak.


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## Shawn Ryu (Mar 16, 2011)

I dont think SWEATING is much of a problem since Amtrak blasts AC all day and all night during summer. Unless AC is broken of course.


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## AlanB (Mar 16, 2011)

A few random thoughts on the shower idea.

1) In my experience, maybe half those traveling in a sleeper even bother to use the shower. So I'm not sure that demand in coach would be much higher.

2) The train cars can't carry enough water to allow for more or less continuous showering.

3) Even far more limited than the total water suply is the hot water supply. Three or four showers in a row in the public shower, plus one in one of the bedrooms is enough to kill hot water for a good half hour or more.

4) I'm not sure if the dirty water tanks have the capacity for that increased showering either. They might, I'm just not sure. And please keep in mind that in coach, where one might be tempted to say that without a shower now they'd have room, you have to remember that you have double the number of people washing in sinks and flushing the toilets.

5) An attendant who is actually doing their job well on a full sleeper doesn't really have a lot of extra time to be cleaning, much less checking off on a list who is coming to use the shower. It's not a matter of money for that person.

6) You're increasing the through traffic in the dining car, which isn't exactly a good thing.

7) As a sleeping car passenger, I wouldn't know a day or two in advance exactly what time I'd want to take a shower. So advance registration IMHO would not be a good idea, if we could even overcome some of the other issues.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 16, 2011)

A bit off the rail, and on the road.

As an OTR truck driver I spend more time on the road than at my house.

Truckstops/Travel centers/Service plaza are where I get my Hot water fix. Most showers cost $10.00 usd, or require 50 to 75 gals of fuel for an shower credit. Most truckstops now have an self service machine, you put in your $10 or swipped your rewards card. Then the computer gives you an shower receipt with an Pin# on it. An TV screen then show what shower your assigned. You head for your assigned door, punch in your pin #, door unlocks, and in you go.

The shower are clean after each use. Quickly sometimes an bit too quickly, but are detailed once an day, or more.

Most Truckstops chains take pride in there showers, certain one not so much.

One chain is try to keep the time the truckdriver is in the shower down by checking on the driver after one hour. The computer show the time it been in used. I personal get my door knock on, ever once in a while. The shower rooms contain an shower, sink, toliet. Full service bathroom.

I found it intresting that at first the superliner did not have a public shower, but were sent back to be refitted.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 17, 2011)

Interesting responses Alan. Here's my take.



AlanB said:


> In my experience, maybe half those traveling in a sleeper even bother to use the shower. So I'm not sure that demand in coach would be much higher.


If half of the coach passengers used the shower that still sounds like quite an untapped demand to me.



AlanB said:


> The train cars can't carry enough water to allow for more or less continuous showering.


They would need to have water added more frequently and/or have additional water storage added.



AlanB said:


> Even far more limited than the total water suply is the hot water supply. Three or four showers in a row in the public shower, plus one in one of the bedrooms is enough to kill hot water for a good half hour or more.


Perhaps solar heaters could be installed on top of the car that would hold and heat substantially more water than is currently available. Not the big and bulky designs of years past but the much thinner designs of today. Or, if that's too ground breaking, maybe we could simply add instant-on water heaters like the kind they the use in Asia. I'm not sure what the specific answer is to this, but there have been several major advancements in water heater technology in more recent years.



AlanB said:


> I'm not sure if the dirty water tanks have the capacity for that increased showering either. They might, I'm just not sure.


Perhaps sink and shower water would be eligible for an exception to allow for immediate or at-speed disposal depending on how the regulations are written.

Or rewritten. 



AlanB said:


> And please keep in mind that in coach, where one might be tempted to say that without a shower now they'd have room, you have to remember that you have double the number of people washing in sinks and flushing the toilets.


I wasn't quite able to follow this part. :blink:



AlanB said:


> An attendant who is actually doing their job well on a full sleeper doesn't really have a lot of extra time to be cleaning, much less checking off on a list who is coming to use the shower. It's not a matter of money for that person.


If the SCA's can't do it then maybe we should let the CCA's handle it instead. If they can't get in there after every single use then that's unfortunate but so be it. It's not like the SCA's are actually cleaning the showers after every use either. I don't believe it has to be completely spotless to be a useful service. I've already seen some pretty poorly maintained showers as it is so I'm not too worried about it only being cleaned after every two or three users or whatever.



AlanB said:


> You're increasing the through traffic in the dining car, which isn't exactly a good thing.


I'm guessing only one or two people at a time would be moving through. That seems rather reasonable to me. The only time I've ever had trouble passing through a diner was when it came in the form of those oddball CCC cars with their built-in choke point design. And frankly I'm not sure what to say about those except to put them on the _end_ of the train. :lol:



AlanB said:


> As a sleeping car passenger, I wouldn't know a day or two in advance exactly what time I'd want to take a shower. So advance registration IMHO would not be a good idea, if we could even overcome some of the other issues.


I envision sleeper passengers being given first dibs on scheduling but also having access during any time that was not already scheduled beforehand. In addition some times could be blocked off just for sleeper pax to show up unannounced.


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## Shawn Ryu (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe it would be a better idea to install showers at Union Station in Chicago and New Orleans Passenger Terminal (2 stations where passengers has to transfer to get from East Coast to West Coast by Amtrak). Give passengers who has to travel 4 or 5 days without taking a shower a chance to do so during layover.

I think many of us can go without shower for 3 days.


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## the_traveler (Mar 17, 2011)

Shawn Ryu said:


> I think many of us can go without shower for 3 days.


I agree!

Somehow people in "the good old days" of railroading did, and we still got born!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 17, 2011)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Maybe it would be a better idea to install showers at Union Station in Chicago and New Orleans Passenger Terminal (2 stations where passengers has to transfer to get from East Coast to West Coast by Amtrak). Give passengers who has to travel 4 or 5 days without taking a shower a chance to do so during layover.
> 
> I think many of us can go without shower for 3 days.


There were at one point showers for hire at Chicago Union station. I do recall see them in the 90's.


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 17, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> > I think many of us can go without shower for 3 days.
> ...


So who was using the shower services we see listed in "good old days" photos if nobody cared about stinking it up with their own funk?



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> There were at one point showers for hire at Chicago Union station. I do recall see them in the 90's.


Do you remember where in the station they were located?


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## rrdude (Mar 17, 2011)

Shawn Ryu said:


> Maybe it would be a better idea to install showers at Union Station in Chicago and New Orleans Passenger Terminal (2 stations where passengers has to transfer to get from East Coast to West Coast by Amtrak). Give passengers who has to travel 4 or 5 days without taking a shower a chance to do so during layover.
> 
> I think many of us can go without shower for 3 days.


Ewwwwwww. Granted we "can" and sometimes "do".

But the only times I do it are usually if I'm working from home, or (obviously) hiking or backpacking. NOT sharing close quarters with someone on a train, for hours and hours. It's bad enuff that most sleeper patrons don't use the shower, and one can usually tell at the breakfast table in the AM!


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## AlanB (Mar 17, 2011)

daxomni said:


> Interesting responses Alan. Here's my take.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But is it enough to make it worth while? I honestly don't know. It may well be worth it, I just don't have any data or info to say one way or another.



daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > The train cars can't carry enough water to allow for more or less continuous showering.
> ...


That means adding water supplies at many more stations, which I suspect would be a considerable expense, especially in northern climes where you have to protect against freezing in the winter.



daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Even far more limited than the total water suply is the hot water supply. Three or four showers in a row in the public shower, plus one in one of the bedrooms is enough to kill hot water for a good half hour or more.
> ...


The first sounds extravagant and extremely expensive. The later I suspect might just overwhelm the HEP, forcing shorter trains.



daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure if the dirty water tanks have the capacity for that increased showering either. They might, I'm just not sure.
> ...


While I agree that it's probably unnecessary to retain that water, I suspect that we've got a better chance that pigs will learn to fly in the near future. :lol:


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## AlanB (Mar 17, 2011)

daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And please keep in mind that in coach, where one might be tempted to say that without a shower now they'd have room, you have to remember that you have double the number of people washing in sinks and flushing the toilets.
> ...


What I was trying to say, albeit badly, is that one could argue that since there are currently no showers in the coaches, they therefore should have plenty of capacity to hold the water from an installed shower. However, since you have double the amount of passengers in a coach, as compared to a sleeper, you have twice as much water be produced in a coach from the other various activities as you would have produced in a sleeper.



daxomni said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > You're increasing the through traffic in the dining car, which isn't exactly a good thing.
> ...


You're correct, it would only be a couple more people at any given time. But still, it's a few more people that they just don't need walking through the car and it just ups the chances of an accident.

Finally, let me just add that I'm not exactly trying to shoot this idea down, it is intriguing to say the least. However, I'm also not sure that it isn't a solution looking for a problem; at least with regard to the existing cars. On the other hand, I do think that it might be something that Amtrak should take a serious look at if/when they get the funds to buy new long distance coaches.


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## the_traveler (Mar 17, 2011)

AlanB said:


> daxomni said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Actually shower and sink waste water is expelled directly. Only "brown" water (from the toilets) is pumped in the retention tanks.

This I was told by a crew member at a stop (IIRC ABQ) when I reported water leaking from the sleeper at the stop. He said it was from someone probably using the shower.

And pigs do fly on planes - if they are "service animals"!


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## Cristobal (Mar 17, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > daxomni said:
> ...


In the RV world it is defined as either 'gray' (sinks, shower) or 'black' (toilets) water and RVs actually have separate holding tanks for both. I was wondering if that was true for trains as well (the separate tank part).


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## the_traveler (Mar 17, 2011)

No, as said shower and sink water is expelled directly to the tracks.


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## Cristobal (Mar 17, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> No, as said shower and sink water is expelled directly to the tracks.


And you know this to be true absolutely or only anecdotally?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 17, 2011)

The shower at Chicago Union station were located at... Walk from the current ticket area past the bagged claim area towards the great hall, southeast of the great hall, with the door to enter across the bagged claim area. I never used them, and only recall see them once. (only recently I have started to go to Chicago) I sure hope I am not losing my mind yet. So many trains so many countries. Darn certain that area is an book/mag soda pop selling area now.

Someone else; Anyone else remember this place?? Had to be 1995 +/-


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## the_traveler (Mar 17, 2011)

Cristobal said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > No, as said shower and sink water is expelled directly to the tracks.
> ...


Well, I believe the SCA who I reported the "leak" to! I reported this to him because we were delayed earlier in the run because of a water leak in the Dining Car!






So would be that "absolutely" or "anecdotally"?


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## Bierboy (Mar 17, 2011)

daxomni said:


> ....Personally I'd rather *everyone* was able to get cleaned up for dinner so we could enjoy each others company without any fear of completely unnecessary odors.


In all my Amtrak travels (all in sleepers), I have never experienced "unnecessary odors" while eating in the diner (other than the food). Most of the unpleasant odors have been when I chanced a stroll through the coaches...


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## Bierboy (Mar 17, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> Shawn Ryu said:
> 
> 
> > I think many of us can go without shower for 3 days.
> ...


...but you stunk....


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## the_traveler (Mar 17, 2011)

Bierboy said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Shawn Ryu said:
> ...


No I don't!



I make it a point to take a shower at least once a year - whether I need it or not!


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## Cristobal (Mar 17, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> Cristobal said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


You may well be correct about there being no gray water retention on Amtrak's LD trains. However, your single experience (anecdotal) of a sleeper "leaking water" and one SCA's comment about it is hardly compelling enough to support your supposition all by itself. It would seem to me that you would need either a larger sample of anecdotal evidence (ie: "I've had a dozen SCAs on a dozen different trains tell me that gray water is just dumped straight onto the tracks") or first-hand knowledge of Amtrak plumbing to speak to such absolute terms.

IMHO of course... 

Where is that oldtimer guy that has posted here before about working on Amtrak plumbing? Maybe he can set the record straight for us.


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## oldtimer (Mar 17, 2011)

Cristobal said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Cristobal said:
> ...


I've been out of town and also ailing but I'll check in here as requested:

Gray water (sink and shower drain water) is not retained, it is simply dumped on the ROW.

Oldtimer2

PS I'll explain the AC system as promised as soon as I feel a little better.

Reason for edit, fast fingers and slow brain!


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## Cristobal (Mar 17, 2011)

oldtimer2 said:


> Cristobal said:
> 
> 
> > the_traveler said:
> ...


Thank you for the clarification Oldtimer2. Get well soon!

My apologies for doubting the_traveler... 

P.S. It does surprise me that environmental regulations allow the dumping of gray water (some black-bellied salamander could get soapy water in it's eyes!) but I personally don't see any harm in it. It also makes me laugh thinking that the last time that I took a shower on a LD train was during a smoke-stop at Chemult on the 11. I didn't realize that I was leaving a puddle there by doing so but it was definitely easier to not be fighting the sway while I was washing my hair (not to mention fighting the 'crowd' the next morning trying to shower before breakfast).


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## amamba (Mar 17, 2011)

I think it is appalling from an environmental stance that gray water is dumped on the ROW. But I do understand that many of the cars were designed and constructed before we were so environmentally conscious. I wonder if the new viewliners that have been ordered will have this same design?


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## anir dendroica (Mar 17, 2011)

Gray water = soap + water + dirt

ROW = ballast + creosote-treated ties

I'm willing to bet that the environmental effect of gray water is less than 0.1% of the effect of creosote leaching from the ties. Soap breaks down quickly in the environment. That said, there are probably a few situations (e.g. trestles over mountain streams) where gray water has a measurable environmental effect.

Mark


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## Devil's Advocate (Mar 18, 2011)

amamba said:


> I think it is appalling from an environmental stance that gray water is dumped on the ROW. But I do understand that many of the cars were designed and constructed before we were so environmentally conscious. I wonder if the new viewliners that have been ordered will have this same design?


From the prospective of the environment gray water and black water are relatively harmless on their own. So long as they're not released onto work crews or while flying through a station full of passengers there's really not much to worry about. In other words it's more of a hygiene issue than any sort of serious environmental concern. For hundreds of years human waste was used as fertilizer on crops or even fed directly to certain livestock. It's not the kind of thing that can harm the environment unless it's combined with persistent chemical chains before being released.



anir dendroica said:


> I'm willing to bet that the environmental effect of gray water is less than 0.1% of the effect of creosote leaching from the ties. Soap breaks down quickly in the environment. That said, there are probably a few situations (e.g. trestles over mountain streams) where gray water has a measurable environmental effect.


Even in the case of a trestle over a mountain stream a little gray or black water would not be enough to cause any measurable degradation. Maybe if hundreds of trains flushed every available toilet precisely as they crossed the stream you could foul it up bad enough to cause serious problems, but I don't see that as a realistic threat. Creosote and oil based drippings would indeed be a much bigger concern, not just with regard to leaching from the roadbed but also for all the damage already done just by collecting, processing, and transporting them from a remote raw material source to a finished product thousands of miles away.


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## the_traveler (Mar 18, 2011)

amamba said:


> I think it is appalling from an environmental stance that gray water is dumped on the ROW.


Actually the retention tanks were refitted onto existing cars (I forget when) in the 1970's or 1980's



IIRC. The early Amtrak cars (and of course pre-Amtrak cars) did not have retention tanks at all!



They were only put in place after a fisherman along some river got "a surprise catch" from an Amtrak train that passed over the bridge where he was fishing!





Remember seeing the signs on old trains that said something like



> Flush toilet - except when standing at a station!


When you flushed the old toilets, a flap at the bottom opened - and you could see the ties rush by!



I'll take getting hit by soap and water any day compared to "other things"!


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## alben (Mar 18, 2011)

the_traveler said:


> Remember seeing the signs on old trains that said something like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Heck, my family took a round trip on a Russian train from Moscow to Kursk 8 years ago, and that is the way it was. Flush the toilet, the flap opened, and you could see the train tracks! There was a sign in Russian saying not to use toilet while in station.


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## GG-1 (Mar 18, 2011)

alben said:


> the_traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Remember seeing the signs on old trains that said something like
> ...


Aloha

My first overnight ride out of Miami Florida, that's what the toilet did. I forget when that was, because the mind is the second thing to go, I forget the fourth.


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