# Price of New Vehicles



## Bob Dylan

Watched a Story on the Evening News that said the Median Price for New Vehicles in the US is now $48,000 with the Average Payment over $1,000 a Month!.

And the Prices of Used Vehicles are at an all time High also!


----------



## MARC Rider

Unfortunately, we're now in the position of having to buy a new car. While I was available to get financing at a very good rate, the salesman at CarMax told us that some of his customers are stuck with rates of 25% or more!

At some point in the not to distant future, a large percentage of the American public is not going to be able to afford a car, new or used. I'm pessimistic and think the result will be a wave of political unrest rather than a golden age for public transportation.


----------



## jiml

The shortage of new cars has driven up the price of used resales and those cheap manufacturer finance offers seem to be a thing of the past. In past inflationary cycles excess car inventory is what prompted those low rates. Today we have the "perfect storm" of inflation, high interest rates and no inventory.


----------



## Asher

jiml said:


> The shortage of new cars has driven up the price of used resales and those cheap manufacturer finance offers seem to be a thing of the past. In past inflationary cycles excess car inventory is what prompted those low rates. Today we have the "perfect storm" of inflation, high interest rates and no inventory.


Plus the cost of fuel is enough to make a grown man cry.


----------



## BCL

The primary reason for low inventory is the lack of automotive semiconductors. There's actually a pinch with all semiconductors given strong demand and staffing shortages at the fabs needed to make the parts. And there's really no going back to less electronics.


----------



## MARC Rider

anumberone said:


> Plus the cost of fuel is enough to make a grown man cry.


Except that in our area, the price of gas has dropped over 50 cents per gallon over the past 2 weeks.


----------



## jis

MARC Rider said:


> Except that in our area, the price of gas has dropped over 50 cents per gallon over the past 2 weeks.


We are well below $4 now somewhere between mid $3.80s and mid $3.90s

One thing driving up median price of new cars is that whatever chips are available are being used in manufacturing higher margin more expensive cars at the expense of cheaper models, and it is those that are coming on the market.


----------



## Asher

MARC Rider said:


> Except that in our area, the price of gas has dropped over 50 cents per gallon over the past 2 weeks.


Yeah I’m lovin that decrease in price, we’re down to $6.50 or so for diesel and close to $6 for gas.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

I've noticed the price of gas coming down as well. Not a lot but down.

Another issue is that there is a huge increase in repossessions of cars at the moment - a lot of people apparently bought too much car for the their financial situation. Doesn't bode well for anybody other than used car shoppers... 

(can't readily find a good, non-paywalled article)


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> Unfortunately, we're now in the position of having to buy a new car. While I was available to get financing at a very good rate, the salesman at CarMax told us that some of his customers are stuck with rates of 25% or more!
> 
> At some point in the not to distant future, a large percentage of the American public is not going to be able to afford a car, new or used. I'm pessimistic and think the result will be a wave of political unrest rather than a golden age for public transportation.


Look into getting a Hybrid Joe. 

I know full Electrics are " The Hot Thing" but most of the Asian Owned Manufacturers make really good Vehicles that are semi-reasonable .

Totota and Hyundai ( Best Warranty by Far)are the Highest Rated, and everyone I know who has one or more Loves them.


----------



## Exvalley

As others have mentioned, the shortage of cars is the perfect storm of supply chain issues. As a result, discounting has all but stopped. This will not last forever, but it will last at least several more months. Even when production returns to normal, it will take a year or more to get back to previous inventory levels.

If you need a car right now, your best bet is to find a dealership that is not charging over MSRP. Those dealers are out there. You may get lucky and qualify for a small incentive, but forget negotiating beyond that. 

Some cars are very backordered. The Volkswagen ID.4, for example, is backordered a year or more. If you want one of those popular cars, get your name on a list ASAP. 

Keep in mind that volume is way down. Dealerships are not discounting, but they are also selling fewer vehicles. It's also why Tesla has raised prices so much in the past year.


----------



## BCL

Exvalley said:


> As others have mentioned, the shortage of cars is the perfect storm of supply chain issues. As a result, discounting has all but stopped. This will not last forever, but it will last at least several more months. Even when production returns to normal, it will take a year or more to get back to previous inventory levels.
> 
> If you need a car right now, your best bet is to find a dealership that is not charging over MSRP. Those dealers are out there. You may get lucky and qualify for a small incentive, but forget negotiating beyond that.
> 
> Some cars are very backordered. The Volkswagen ID.4, for example, is backordered a year or more. If you want one of those popular cars, get your name on a list ASAP.
> 
> Keep in mind that volume is way down. Dealerships are not discounting, but they are also selling fewer vehicles. It's also why Tesla has raised prices so much in the past year.



Traditionally dealers would often put an additional markup on the window but rarely charge anything unless it was some specific vehicle with limited stock. Think early Miata or cars that were made in limited quantities. I think for my first car there was a label that said the dealer wanted $2000 over MSRP. I negotiated and got it for about $2000 less than MSRP, and that was with dealer financing, which the finance manager said he hated because "dealer participation" (in the fine print) meant he made no commission unlike what he's get with bank financing.

It's a weird market now.


----------



## BCL

jis said:


> We are well below $4 now somewhere between mid $3.80s and mid $3.90s
> 
> One thing driving up median price of new cars is that whatever chips are available are being used in manufacturing higher margin more expensive cars at the expense of cheaper models, and it is those that are coming on the market.



I'm not sure it necessarily works that way - or at least not at the point where parts can only reserved for the most expensive models. A lot of these ICs are not going to be interchangeable. It's really a lot like the way other electronics are made. I work in semiconductors, and if the specific parts a company needs are unavailable, they're basically screwed because there's no second source like is possible for auto parts like oil filters or relays. They might have unique pinouts and have been qualified for specific chips. I think of it like iPhones, where Apple can't go to Qualcomm asking for processors. They've already baked in their own parts.

Automakers will choose their electronic parts early in the design phase and there really won't be a lot of flexibility if that specific part has supply chain difficulties. I could imagine the same part is used in different vehicles at various price points, since a lot of these do pretty basic things that are needed for all cars.


----------



## west point

There has been talk that Russia is taking chips in domestic and hosehold equipment for use whenever possible into military hardware. Find that as somewhat suspect.

Drove by local Nissan dealer yesterday.. Number of autos compared to 2 months ago appeared as a WAG about 45% of 2 months ago However, we have had solid consists of auto carriers going and comming from the KIA factory in West Point, Ga. KIA dealer near the Nissan dealer seemed to have about same numer of cars.


----------



## jis

BCL said:


> I'm not sure it necessarily works that way - or at least not at the point where parts can only reserved for the most expensive models. A lot of these ICs are not going to be interchangeable. It's really a lot like the way other electronics are made. I work in semiconductors, and if the specific parts a company needs are unavailable, they're basically screwed because there's no second source like is possible for auto parts like oil filters or relays. They might have unique pinouts and have been qualified for specific chips. I think of it like iPhones, where Apple can't go to Qualcomm asking for processors. They've already baked in their own parts.
> 
> Automakers will choose their electronic parts early in the design phase and there really won't be a lot of flexibility if that specific part has supply chain difficulties. I could imagine the same part is used in different vehicles at various price points, since a lot of these do pretty basic things that are needed for all cars.


I know very little about the details of how these things work. I was merely para phrasing a reputed Auto Industry Analyst's view as he presented on Bloomberg Business.

I am sure you know more than me.


----------



## BCL

jis said:


> I know very little about the details of how these things work. I was merely para phrasing a reputed Auto Industry Analyst's view as he presented on Bloomberg Business.
> 
> I am sure you know more than me.



Well - it's like a lot of things where parts are selected well in advance, and there's a smorgasbord of different parts that could work, but become part of the design. But once they're chosen, boards are designed, certifications are given, etc. - then there's little that can be done that deviates from it. The manufacturer is now subject to parts shortages and manufacturer allocations.

Think of it like when NASA seemed to be desperate to get spare parts. They have to be specific parts and there was no substitute. I heard they had employees searching for those parts on eBay.


----------



## Dakota 400

west point said:


> There has been talk that Russia is taking chips in domestic and hosehold equipment for use whenever possible into military hardware. Find that as somewhat suspect.
> 
> Drove by local Nissan dealer yesterday.. Number of autos compared to 2 months ago appeared as a WAG about 45% of 2 months ago However, we have had solid consists of auto carriers going and comming from the KIA factory in West Point, Ga. KIA dealer near the Nissan dealer seemed to have about same numer of cars.



Today was time for an oil change for my Buick. The dealer did have more cars on the front lot than were there several months ago when I drove by. Most of the cars were GMC vehicles with just a few Buicks.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Cross country I am seem more cars on dealer lots, and less sitting in fields. However it does seem the higher end one are available, not the cheapest. I am not sure how this will work out. Some plants have taken vacation and stop production, but it seem a lot of cars are sitting around still waiting for that chip. What happens when they hit the market. Are we going to have a bust, and see price drop?

I get the dealers not given a discount, but when the fields get cleared of cars and truck then what will happen. Is there a market for all these cars?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

About the fuel price drop, pretty sure it was price speculation, but US is still try to send more products (crud and finish) to Europe, not sure what this winter will look like.


----------



## MARC Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Watched a Story on the Evening News that said the Median Price for New Vehicles in the US is now $48,000 with the Average Payment over $1,000 a Month!.
> 
> And the Prices of Used Vehicles are at an all time High also!


This seems to be sensationalizing. First, how do they calculate "median price?" Is it a case of counting every car model on sale and taking the median value, or is the "true" median somehow sales-weighted? It's possible that the auto manufacturers are marketing a disproportionate amount of high-end and "loaded" cars, but if one, looks, there are still a lot of new cars around for considerably less than $48,000. Also, monthly payments depend on mode than the interest rate, as the length of the load term has a very strong effect.

I myself just gulped and subjected myself to purchasing a new car. The car was a small SUV (Toyota Corolla Cross), mid trim, for $33K. This price included the evil dealer "market adjustment." I'm not happy, but our 21 year old Honda has a lot of rust on the undercarriage and the A/C is definitely flaky, so I'd rather replace the car now while I can still at least drive the old car to the junkyard. I was able to borrow $20K for 60 months (5 years) at a monthly payment of $360. Maybe people with really bad credit who are stuck with 25% APRs deal with monthly payments approaching $1,000. 

This <$48,000 car is not some bare-bones base model, either. In my research, I saw compact cars with MRSPs of less than $20,000, some even less than $15,000. There are plenty of cars and SUVs being offered that are way less than $48,000. Of course, in today's market, they're not on the lot, and you're going to have to order them, pay a couple of thousand over the MRSP, and wait a while before they're delivered. We had to wait about almost 2 weeks for ours, and the salesman said it "was on the train." It arrived about a week later than his estimate. Maybe it was riding Amtrak or Amtrak is consulting with the class I freight railroads on the subject of on-time arrivals.


----------



## Bob Dylan

MARC Rider said:


> This seems to be sensationalizing. First, how do they calculate "median price?" Is it a case of counting every car model on sale and taking the median value, or is the "true" median somehow sales-weighted? It's possible that the auto manufacturers are marketing a disproportionate amount of high-end and "loaded" cars, but if one, looks, there are still a lot of new cars around for considerably less than $48,000. Also, monthly payments depend on mode than the interest rate, as the length of the load term has a very strong effect.
> 
> I myself just gulped and subjected myself to purchasing a new car. The car was a small SUV (Toyota Corolla Cross), mid trim, for $33K. This price included the evil dealer "market adjustment." I'm not happy, but our 21 year old Honda has a lot of rust on the undercarriage and the A/C is definitely flaky, so I'd rather replace the car now while I can still at least drive the old car to the junkyard. I was able to borrow $20K for 60 months (5 years) at a monthly payment of $360. Maybe people with really bad credit who are stuck with 25% APRs deal with monthly payments approaching $1,000.
> 
> This <$48,000 car is not some bare-bones base model, either. In my research, I saw compact cars with MRSPs of less than $20,000, some even less than $15,000. There are plenty of cars and SUVs being offered that are way less than $48,000. Of course, in today's market, they're not on the lot, and you're going to have to order them, pay a couple of thousand over the MRSP, and wait a while before they're delivered. We had to wait about almost 2 weeks for ours, and the salesman said it "was on the train." It arrived about a week later than his estimate. Maybe it was riding Amtrak or Amtrak is consulting with the class I freight railroads on the subject of on-time arrivals.


Congrats,Nice car! I should have figured you would make a Smart Choice!

And you're correct about the Prices, depending on What, Where,and Who is buying!

Austin is the Capital of the Electric Car Mania, but also the Big Gas Hog Trucks still sell like Hot Cakes, some of these Amazon's are so Big you could live in them!( and they're Crazy Expensive!)

I get emails and junk calls daily wanting to "Buy your Car"( and my House too, and I live in an Apartment!)

Car Dealers and Car Salespersons have always had Reputations for being Slick, and I'm sure lots of folks get taken advantage of by them, even those of us who do their research and know how the system works,since we are pretty much stuck with Buying/Leasing from Dealers or from Private Individuals.( Used)

Enjoy the New Car, I'm happy I bought Mine in 2018, and that it's Paid For, with the Good 10 Year Hyundai Warranty!


----------



## railiner

BCL said:


> The primary reason for low inventory is the lack of automotive semiconductors. There's actually a pinch with all semiconductors given strong demand and staffing shortages at the fabs needed to make the parts. And there's really no going back to less electronics.


Perhaps someone should come out with a modern day "peoples car", that does not rely on electronics...bet it would sell...
And as an added bonus, it might not be vulnerable to some Electromagnetic Pulse attack....


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

railiner said:


> Perhaps someone should come out with a modern day "peoples car", that does not rely on electronics...bet it would sell...
> And as an added bonus, it might not be vulnerable to some Electromagnetic Pulse attack....


Not sure if a old fashion carburetor would be able to meet modern emissions standards. But EMP blast prove car would sell to a few.


----------



## BCL

railiner said:


> Perhaps someone should come out with a modern day "peoples car", that does not rely on electronics...bet it would sell...
> And as an added bonus, it might not be vulnerable to some Electromagnetic Pulse attack....



Can't possibly sell such a car in the United States or Canada. Any new car sold has to have on-board diagnostics. California's Smog Check now pretty much only is a plug in to read the diagnostics rather than doing an actual tailpipe emissions check.

The whole EMP thing is overblown. A generator produces electricity because a moving magnetic coil generates current. An EMP does that with a magnetic wave moving instead. If you saw the movie GoldenEye, it was fairly accurate in that not only did the electronics fry, but even incandescent light bulbs blew up. But that would have to be pretty powerful. I remember another movie (Broken Arrow) that has someone turn off everything when a nuclear weapon created an EMP that took down a helicopter. That might not be a matter of overcurrent destroying electronics, but what we call "soft errors" where electronic 0s and 1s get flipped. But I think anything electrical could be damaged by EMP.


----------



## BCL

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Not sure if a old fashion carburetor would be able to meet modern emissions standards. But EMP blast prove car would sell to a few.



That's what I was thinking. All new cars sold have to have OBD-II compatible systems. Part of it would be for emissions equipment, but it can also report things like failing engines or transmissions.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I was talking to my local Mercedes van dealer; I have been thinking of switching from my ‘16 Metris passenger to a new four cylinder diesel Sprinter cargo 144’ high roof, so as to remove the rear passenger seat I never use and replace it with more of the kind of office set up I do use plus standing headroom and a couch to lounge on. More desk space, more comfortable seating, maybe even a cassette toilet for emergencies… and independant roof a/c without running the prime mover.

Anyway, when I bought my custom ordered mid-spec passenger ‘16 Metris I paid $38600 for it and a crewvan Sprinter 4-cylinder diesel 144” low-roof (built in second row of seats) a bit more sparsely equipped was about the same price- these are at a discount. The cargo model I specced out from the dealer ended up right around $70k, if I could get a custom order done- they wanted a $5k non-refundable deposit and told me I could figure on an 18 month delivery, and that’s before most of the interior outfitting, the generator, roof A/C, roof vent fan, or venting windows. Decided I’m going to wait for the eSprinter or whatever they call it, which might have the advantage of being able to power the A/C off the traction batteries (so ultimately a lower cost than with a generator). Good gravy.


----------



## Everydaymatters

MARC Rider said:


> This seems to be sensationalizing. First, how do they calculate "median price?" Is it a case of counting every car model on sale and taking the median value, or is the "true" median somehow sales-weighted? It's possible that the auto manufacturers are marketing a disproportionate amount of high-end and "loaded" cars, but if one, looks, there are still a lot of new cars around for considerably less than $48,000. Also, monthly payments depend on mode than the interest rate, as the length of the load term has a very strong effect.
> 
> I myself just gulped and subjected myself to purchasing a new car. The car was a small SUV (Toyota Corolla Cross), mid trim, for $33K. This price included the evil dealer "market adjustment." I'm not happy, but our 21 year old Honda has a lot of rust on the undercarriage and the A/C is definitely flaky, so I'd rather replace the car now while I can still at least drive the old car to the junkyard. I was able to borrow $20K for 60 months (5 years) at a monthly payment of $360. Maybe people with really bad credit who are stuck with 25% APRs deal with monthly payments approaching $1,000.
> 
> This <$48,000 car is not some bare-bones base model, either. In my research, I saw compact cars with MRSPs of less than $20,000, some even less than $15,000. There are plenty of cars and SUVs being offered that are way less than $48,000. Of course, in today's market, they're not on the lot, and you're going to have to order them, pay a couple of thousand over the MRSP, and wait a while before they're delivered. We had to wait about almost 2 weeks for ours, and the salesman said it "was on the train." It arrived about a week later than his estimate. Maybe it was riding Amtrak or Amtrak is consulting with the class I freight railroads on the subject of on-time arrivals.


My Honda is only 18 years old with no rust. The A/C still works, but these Hondas are notorious for the A/C quitting at 100,000 miles. Mine is still under that. Congrats on the good deal you negotiated.


----------



## railiner

BCL said:


> Can't possibly sell such a car in the United States or Canada. Any new car sold has to have on-board diagnostics. California's Smog Check now pretty much only is a plug in to read the diagnostics rather than doing an actual tailpipe emissions check.
> 
> The whole EMP thing is overblown. A generator produces electricity because a moving magnetic coil generates current. An EMP does that with a magnetic wave moving instead. If you saw the movie GoldenEye, it was fairly accurate in that not only did the electronics fry, but even incandescent light bulbs blew up. But that would have to be pretty powerful. I remember another movie (Broken Arrow) that has someone turn off everything when a nuclear weapon created an EMP that took down a helicopter. That might not be a matter of overcurrent destroying electronics, but what we call "soft errors" where electronic 0s and 1s get flipped. But I think anything electrical could be damaged by EMP.


Well then, maybe I’ll search in Hemming’s, for an old Stanley Steamer…that should be totally EMP proof, right?

And since it was built prior to EPA regs, should be exempt from emissions test…


----------



## Joe from PA

I bought a new '19 Subaru Outback Premium on 8/25/18 for $29,000. The very same (except for the color) used '19 was for sale by my Subaru dealer for $26,500. a few months ago. It even had 6,000 more miles than mine. They did have 2 top-of-the-line new '22 ones in stock for $42,800. but none lower.


----------



## MARC Rider

BCL said:


> That's what I was thinking. All new cars sold have to have OBD-II compatible systems. Part of it would be for emissions equipment, but it can also report things like failing engines or transmissions.


Even so, modern cars have way more electronics than the minimum needed for the emission control system. The more chips you need, the more trouble caused by a chip shortage.


----------



## railiner

MARC Rider said:


> Even so, modern cars have way more electronics than the minimum needed for the emission control system. The more chips you need, the more trouble caused by a chip shortage.


Indeed…I’ve heard modern cars have more electronics than Apollo 11 did…


----------



## Ryan

Pretty sure that the watch on my risk has more electronics than Apollo 11.


----------



## BCL

MARC Rider said:


> Even so, modern cars have way more electronics than the minimum needed for the emission control system. The more chips you need, the more trouble caused by a chip shortage.



The onboard diagnostics monitors far more than just emissions controls. I guess it might be possible to monitor emissions with a carburetor or mechanical fuel injection, but most of the sensors typically used would be part of an electronic fuel injection system. Heck - even new manual transmissions have lots of electronic control systems.

The shortage is really weird though. A lot of the shortages are with specific parts, and the manufacturers using these parts are at the mercy of their suppliers. And as noted, they can't really "second source" without a complete redesign of the electronics since they're not fungible parts. There are actually some interchangeable electronic parts like memories and some power electronics, but an automaker is going to use a lot of unique parts.


----------



## MARC Rider

Ryan said:


> Pretty sure that the watch on my risk has more electronics than Apollo 11.


Not mine, I have a mechanical self-funding watch.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> Pretty sure that the watch on my risk has more electronics than Apollo 11.


Our Phones and Home Computers have more also!


----------



## MARC Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Our Phones and Home Computers have more also!



Yeah, it's a little sobering to think that the phone I'm holding and typing this with might have more raw computing power than the entire Strategic Air Command, circa 1965.

And someone from the SAC, if they could come forward in time and see this, might be a little startled that all this raw computing power was manufactured in the People's Republic of China.


----------



## Palmland

Everydaymatters said:


> My Honda is only 18 years old with no rust. The A/C still works, but these Hondas are notorious for the A/C quitting at 100,000 miles.



My experience too. Our Pilot is only 15 years old with 240k and had new AC about 6 years ago. Great car but now in gentle retirement as our beach buggy. Not sure if it’s significant but one of the last model year still made in Japan and before CVT that we don’t like on our Subaru.


----------



## BCL

MARC Rider said:


> Yeah, it's a little sobering to think that the phone I'm holding and typing this with might have more raw computing power than the entire Strategic Air Command, circa 1965.
> 
> And someone from the SAC, if they could come forward in time and see this, might be a little startled that all this raw computing power was manufactured in the People's Republic of China.



Not precisely. Most of the guts are designed in the United States, Israel (Intel processors are designed in Israel or Oregon), silicon is made in the US, Taiwan, Japan, or Korea, the packaging is in China, Thailand, Malaysia, or Singapore, etc. They often build the boards and assemble the parts in China. So they go through a lot of places before being shipped.

This is of course a massive oversimplification because there's so many different places where it's done, including Chinese semiconductor fabs, although they're nowhere near the sophistication of TSMC or Samsung. They're also miffed that the US won't allow the sale of state of the art equipment to Chinese companies on national security grounds.

However, what we have now use has fairly primitive computing power. A lot of devices use "embedded" processors where the original design was 40 years ago. They can run simple firmware and do simple tasks. However, even that would be more raw computing power than 60s era computers.


----------



## Qapla

Until you have stood looking into an Appolo command module - you don't realize how small and crowded they actually were

However, I'm sure they cost much more than today's cars - even if cars are expensive.


----------



## cassie225

Nice deal on that sprinter. We have friends trying to rent a sprinter here in Baton Rouge in late August to drive to SC to try one out, but they are impossible to find. They are nice looking passenger vans


----------



## Trollopian

Feeling nostalgic for my last car, a 1994 Toyota that I bade farewell in 2015. 21 years. No rust, never broke down, never needed expensive repairs, a thrifty little gas-sipper. 61,000 miles. (Thus averaging fewer than 3,000 a year. I took transit to work.) Push-button locks and crank windows and a tape deck. As a city-dweller I concluded that a car-free life would make sense for me but I wasn't gonna sell my beloved car to just anyone. One Sunday I went to church and saw in the bulletin that the vicar was looking for a reliable used car for home and hospital visits. Was that a sign from God, or what?


----------



## railiner

I was thinking of getting a "Class B" small motorhome, and trying to decide between the MB Sprinter, and the Ford Transit chassis. The Sprinter may be a more refined vehicle, but getting periodic service is a lot more expensive, and available in fewer places...


----------



## cassie225

Ford Transit nice looking also


----------



## dlagrua

My wife is a very practical girl and when it became time to get a new vehicle she purchased a Jeep Gladiator. We live at the top of the Sourland Mountains and when it snows the road clearing is often very slow. Being that Paula works the night shift at the hospital she has no trouble getting there in even three feet of snow. We took her vehicle to Ohio Amish country on this years vacation in May but after skipping rail travel for the last two years, we will be back on the rails in 2023.


----------



## Everydaymatters

I am proud to say I have the oldest car in town. Well, to be honest, it is a small town with only 2,600 people. My problem is that I am afraid to take it on a road trip. Not because it isn't in perfect running condition. It is in excellent condition with about 93,000 miles. It's the fear of breaking down because at 19 years of age, it is an old car.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Everydaymatters said:


> I am proud to say I have the oldest car in town. Well, to be honest, it is a small town with only 2,600 people. My problem is that I am afraid to take it on a road trip. Not because it isn't in perfect running condition. It is in excellent condition with about 93,000 miles. It's the fear of breaking down because at 19 years of age, it is an old car.


If it's in good Mechanical condition Betty, go for it! 93,000 miles is barely broken in for some Vehicles if they've been well maintained and everything works well!

Just have your Mechanic do a complete Check of the Csr before a Road Trip and it's always good to belong to AAA in case something does happen and you need assistance on the road!

I've had vehicles with 200,000 miles on them( Toyota and Nissan) that still ran like a top and ,I Sold them for over Book Value!


----------



## Alice

Betty, several things. 1. Older cars can be worked on by old style mechanics who do not have computers to tell them what is wrong. That makes it easier to get back running on weekends or in small towns without a dealer. Ranch mechanics can do anything. 2. You can pack things in your car so a breakdown is an inconvenience, not an emergency: food and lots of water, travel pillow, blanket or sleeping bag, polymer female urinal, etc. It depends, but generally it is safest to stay in your car with seatbelt on. 3. Be aware of where you are so (if you have cell service) you can tell the operator exactly where you are. Make a game of remembering mileposts and street names in unfamiliar territory. Do not depend on a gps (even satellite ones) to tell you where you are.

That's the practical stuff. An additional consideration is, your car will at some point break down no matter what you do. You take care of it in hopes of postponing the breakdown until after you replace it. But really, it is more convenient to break down on a trip when you have extra time to deal with it; much less stressful than when you have a trunk full of groceries needing to be kept cool, or you are on your way to an important appointment. The attitude adjustment is the bigger deal (and can also be used on loved ones who think you should stay home, "act your age" and behave).


----------



## BCL

Alice said:


> Betty, several things. 1. Older cars can be worked on by old style mechanics who do not have computers to tell them what is wrong. That makes it easier to get back running on weekends or in small towns without a dealer. Ranch mechanics can do anything.



With the exception of some items, even older style mechanics can figure out how to diagnose and repair many things. All it takes is an OBDII/CAN scanner. I've got one myself, which I often use to clear an annoying check engine light for a non-issue. But I spent $20 on mine, although I remember going to a home mechanic who whipped out his more sophisticated one from (was it Snap-On?) that probably cost a few hundred dollars.



It's pretty easy. Just plug in the connector into the port, although finding the location in different vehicles can be a challenge. The car will provide the power to the scanner.

Mine is pretty basic with a single line. All I get are trouble codes that have to be matched with an industry standard list. One common one is for a loose gas cap, although there are a host of different codes, including misfiring spark plug. A more sophisticated one will have several lines where it might spell out more than just a code with the problem spelled out. And even more sophisticated is an interface that can hook up to a computer and deal with the most sophisticated issues. However, even the most old-school mechanic out there likely has at least a simple handheld OBDII scanner these days.

Even in the past, parts failed and got replaced. The modern on-board diagnostics may even make it easier to figure out what part is bad and what to replace.


----------



## SarahZ

Even though my car is in good condition and only has 118,000 miles on it, I really wanted to get an AWD vehicle this year. I keep putting it off, though. New and used cars are both so expensive right now, and I haven't seen very many interest rates under 6%. (My last vehicle loan was 1.9%.)

I've decided to wait three years. My oldest niece will be 16, so I'll give my car to her and then buy a new one. Hopefully, things calm down by then.


----------



## Asher

SarahZ said:


> Even though my car is in good condition and only has 118,000 miles on it, I really wanted to get an AWD vehicle this year. I keep putting it off, though. New and used cars are both so expensive right now, and I haven't seen very many interest rates under 6%. (My last vehicle loan was 1.9%.)
> 
> I've decided to wait three years. My oldest niece will be 16, so I'll give my car to her and then buy a new one. Hopefully, things calm down by then.


Prices and interest are crazy right now. I’m shocked at what Trucks are going for. They’re some great AWD vehicles out there though and who knows what’s coming up. I wish the stock market would get on the rebound, it’s flushed my new car thoughts down the tubes.


----------



## Qapla

I drive a 2007 Nissan Titan with 365,000+ miles. Sure, it has some issues, but I can afford a new truck and I only paid $23,000 for it back in 2007.

My oldest daughter recently bought a new GMC with the fancy folding tailgate and 4WD (she really wanted the 4WD) - around $50,000 ... I remember when trucks were cheap - and driven like trucks.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Everydaymatters said:


> I am proud to say I have the oldest car in town. Well, to be honest, it is a small town with only 2,600 people. My problem is that I am afraid to take it on a road trip. Not because it isn't in perfect running condition. It is in excellent condition with about 93,000 miles. It's the fear of breaking down because at 19 years of age, it is an old car.


93000? I had a car that had a 5 digit odometer, but based on car fax it had been around that thing at least seven times, and I think it had actually hit ten. Anyway it was 25 years old (1976 in 2001) and it was in terrible shape (60mph was all she’d give with a tailwind, and it had the Fred Flintstone option- that is, a gigantic hole in the drivers side floor) and it gave me no problems over six months of ownership. I mean I grant it was a Mercedes with the legendary OM616 Diesel engine, but your car ought ta do long trips just fine.

while I’m at it, I have a 1995 E300 Diesel with 208k miles on it. Granted I wouldn’t take it very far but that’s because 1) it has substantial rust, 2) the front suspension rubber is dry rotted from 8 years of being out of service (it’s back in service now sort of) 3) it has neither a/c or a working blower motor.


----------



## Everydaymatters

Bob Dylan said:


> If it's in good Mechanical condition Betty, go for it! 93,000 miles is barely broken in for some Vehicles if they've been well maintained and everything works well!
> 
> Just have your Mechanic do a complete Check of the Csr before a Road Trip and it's always good to belong to AAA in case something does happen and you need assistance on the road!
> 
> I've had vehicles with 200,000 miles on them( Toyota and Nissan) that still ran like a top and ,I Sold them for over Book Value!


Thanks, Jim. Your words are encouraging, but I just don't know....


----------



## Everydaymatters

Alice said:


> Betty, several things. 1. Older cars can be worked on by old style mechanics who do not have computers to tell them what is wrong. That makes it easier to get back running on weekends or in small towns without a dealer. Ranch mechanics can do anything. 2. You can pack things in your car so a breakdown is an inconvenience, not an emergency: food and lots of water, travel pillow, blanket or sleeping bag, polymer female urinal, etc. It depends, but generally it is safest to stay in your car with seatbelt on. 3. Be aware of where you are so (if you have cell service) you can tell the operator exactly where you are. Make a game of remembering mileposts and street names in unfamiliar territory. Do not depend on a gps (even satellite ones) to tell you where you are.
> 
> That's the practical stuff. An additional consideration is, your car will at some point break down no matter what you do. You take care of it in hopes of postponing the breakdown until after you replace it. But really, it is more convenient to break down on a trip when you have extra time to deal with it; much less stressful than when you have a trunk full of groceries needing to be kept cool, or you are on your way to an important appointment. The attitude adjustment is the bigger deal (and can also be used on loved ones who think you should stay home, "act your age" and behave).


Love ya, Alice! You have been my inspiration to do more than I ever expected I could do. I'm thinking about taking a Mississippi River road trip; following it up the Iowa side and back down the Illinois side.


----------



## Asher

Green Maned Lion said:


> 93000? I had a car that had a 5 digit odometer, but based on car fax it had been around that thing at least seven times, and I think it had actually hit ten. Anyway it was 25 years old (1976 in 2001) and it was in terrible shape (60mph was all she’d give with a tailwind, and it had the Fred Flintstone option- that is, a gigantic hole in the drivers side floor) and it gave me no problems over six months of ownership. I mean I grant it was a Mercedes with the legendary OM616 Diesel engine, but your car ought ta do long trips just fine.
> 
> while I’m at it, I have a 1995 E300 Diesel with 208k miles on it. Granted I wouldn’t take it very far but that’s because 1) it has substantial rust, 2) the front suspension rubber is dry rotted from 8 years of being out of service (it’s back in service now sort of) 3) it has neither a/c or a working blower motor.


My wife also had a older MB diesel. Looked good, great fuel mileage. But, air conditioning not so good and it loved going to the Mechanic every month or so for various small problems that cost big dollars because of the name. I sold that car on Craigs list in about a half hour one morning. Wife was peaved to say the least. Bought a new 2008 Scion X box that has not stumbled, grumbled or seen a mechanic ever. I always thought if it breaks, just go buy a new car. The prices now have me re- thinking that.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

My brothers mom had an ancient Mercedes from the very early 70's that was in mostly good condition (thanks to winter free weather and a good mechanic) outside of the upholstery. She regretted trading it in on a Lincoln, which was her last car, in like 2006 or so. 

I've had mostly older cars (a procession of ancient Volvo's and Honda's - the old Civic rotted away finally, thanks Chicago and our copious salt atmosphere) and my current is a 96' Volvo which is in surprisingly good condition for it's age. No idea what the mileage is, since the odometer is out of service, which is why I got it cheap.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

anumberone said:


> My wife also had a older MB diesel. Looked good, great fuel mileage. But, air conditioning not so good and it loved going to the Mechanic every month or so for various small problems that cost big dollars because of the name. I sold that car on Craigs list in about a half hour one morning. Wife was peaved to say the least. Bought a new 2008 Scion X box that has not stumbled, grumbled or seen a mechanic ever. I always thought if it breaks, just go buy a new car. The prices now have me re- thinking that.



I bought my first one, a 1976 240D, when I was just barely 17 on the basis of two features: $250 and runs&drives. I hated a lot of it but decided to drive it until it failed so as to save up money to buy something I wanted (Cadillac Brougham, believe it or not). It never did until an accident where a kid t-boned me six months later; I walked away, he left in a body bag (he wasn’t belted).

Since then I have had a succession of MB diesels none of which had even functional a/c except for the E300D which had functional a/c for about a year after I bought it (that was 2005). I think Mercedes makes the best cars in the world. They are absolutely the safest (not to disparage Volvos deserved reputation in that department) and best-engineered in terms of capability of anything out there. I feel that way about my Metris, too.

They are built to be maintained (at immense expense) forever. Whether they are worth that expense is a question somebody has to answer for themselves; but they are very reliable, perpetually making it to the dealer for (needed) repairs under their own power. I have no dispute that Toyota makes the most reliable and low-maintenance cars, however.

Every time I think of another brand, though, I hear squealing tires and the image of a mid-90s Civic barreling towards my passengers door at 45mph and the sudden certainty that this moment would be my last. And then the knowing that if I was in any other car I could have bought for $250 it would have been.


----------



## Qapla

I find it interesting that, when looking up information on safe vs unsafe cars, there never seems to be any mention of Bently or Rolls-Royce


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Qapla said:


> I find it interesting that, when looking up information on safe vs unsafe cars, there never seems to be any mention of Bently or Rolls-Royce


Probably because there are so few of them?


----------



## Asher

Qapla said:


> I find it interesting that, when looking up information on safe vs unsafe cars, there never seems to be any mention of Bently or Rolls-Royce


Don’t know about Rolls, no one in my area code drives one. I do feel pretty safe saying I’m not spending $200 to 400,000 for a Bentley.


----------



## MARC Rider

Qapla said:


> I find it interesting that, when looking up information on safe vs unsafe cars, there never seems to be any mention of Bently or Rolls-Royce


Maybe it's because they're so expensive that buying the number they need to do the crash tests properly would blow out NHTSA's budget.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Bob Dylan said:


> Watched a Story on the Evening News that said the Median Price for New Vehicles in the US is now $48,000 with the Average Payment over $1,000 a Month!.


The true cost of buying, driving, maintaining, and parking a vehicle that is stationary for most of its life is substantially higher than many of us realize. The following video is just one man's perspective but it does bring up several factors that are rarely discussed in the context of rampant car ownership.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

I think somebody on another thread posted that people were paying 27k for Corollas! And wait-lists for Civics - which makes me wonder if there's a bigger market for sedans & hatchbacks than has been met lately?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Metra Electric Rider said:


> I think somebody on another thread posted that people were paying 27k for Corollas! And wait-lists for Civics - which makes me wonder if there's a bigger market for sedans & hatchbacks than has been met lately?


Most Dealers are charging OVER MSRP for In Stock Vehicles , and making Customers put down Deposits while their Vehicle is "being Built!"


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Bob Dylan said:


> Most Dealers are charging OVER MSRP for In Stock Vehicles , and making Customers put down Deposits while their Vehicle is "being Built!"


Deposits on ordered vehicles is a normal thing, actually. When I ordered my Mercedes Metris back when they first opened the order books in May 2015, I had to put down a $500 deposit that the salesman warned me would be non-refundable due to the vans odd specification (generally well equipped but a passenger van missing the lower capacity comfort suspension- it rides like a 3/4 ton pickup because it has over a ton of payload- climate control, interior carpeting, park assist, or power-sliding doors and non-metallic blue paint) despite me getting over $3k off MSRP even though I was the first order placed and third vehicle delivered- meaning nobody really knew how well a mid-size Mercedes’ commercial passenger van would sell. (Apparently not well, it’s being discontinued, which is a shame- if it is the kind of vehicle you need, it’s fantastic and something of a bargain)


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Bob Dylan said:


> Most Dealers are charging OVER MSRP for In Stock Vehicles , and making Customers put down Deposits while their Vehicle is "being Built!"


I was listening to a report about how there is a prediction that in the future people will be ordering their cars rather than going to the dealer to pick one up (I can't remember if a similar though was mentioned earlier on this thread or on the other one, but it's seeming to permeate thinking these days), so that sort of ties in with that kind of thinking. I've also even heard speculation that dealers will go extinct, but as I understand it that would require a change in laws, both state and federal iirc.


----------



## railiner

I have ordered to spec, my last three cars, as I feel that as costly as they were, I was willing to wait for them to be built, exactly as I wanted them.


----------



## MARC Rider

We had to put down a (refundable) deposit just so that they would hold a car in shipment for us so we could take a test drive.

I think that in an ideal world, dealers would have to keep demo models of every car in the manufacturer's range so that buyers could test drive, check out the seating comfort, etc. And the models available on the lots usually have extra features that many buyers don't need, but get them anyway because they are really discouraged from just ordering a car to spec. Perhaps the sales model for cars will become more transparent -- no attempt to make "deals," just fixed price, order it with the options you want, and have it delivered. But I'm not sure that's to the financial advantage of the car dealers.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

MARC Rider said:


> I think that in an ideal world, dealers...


I struggle to envision an ideal world with dealerships. They are required by state law because without the law I would buy direct every single time.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Devil's Advocate said:


> I struggle to envision an ideal world with dealerships. They are required by state law because without the law I would buy direct every single time.


Good point Chris!

Even though Tesla builds Vehicles here in Austin, due to the crazy Texas Law, they can't " Sell" them here since they don't have "Dealerships" in Texas!( just Information Locations).

Not sure just how the buying/ Leasing process works, but would think it's done on-line???

Yet Austin is full of Teslas!!


----------



## Dakota 400

MARC Rider said:


> I think that in an ideal world, dealers would have to keep demo models of every car in the manufacturer's range so that buyers could test drive, check out the seating comfort, etc



Once upon a time, dealers do that. Not sure that they demos for all of the models of a brand, but, many models were represented.

Once upon a time, dealers supplied cars to high schools for Driver Education. I have heard that some of the cars were sold at the end of a school year to the parents of a student who had driven it.



railiner said:


> I have ordered to spec, my last three cars, as I feel that as costly as they were, I was willing to wait for them to be built, exactly as I wanted them.



I have done the same thing. If I am going to pay what the dealer wants for a model, I am going to have it equipped the way I want it. My most recent purchase in November, 2019, that almost didn't happen. What I wanted as a 2020 Buick Envision with all of the options available. (I wanted the benefit of all of the newest safety features and that required the car to be very well equipped.) Because this was the beginning of the 2020 model year, my desired car was not readily available, but fortunately, the car (even with the desired exterior color and interior trim color) was found 325 miles away. If not, I was going to have a long wait because the car was built in China and there was a very long lead time needed to get the car ordered, made, and shipped to my dealer. I am certain equipping a car, particularly with many "bells and whistles" is to the dealer's benefit. More "stuff" on the car, more profit on the sale.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

railiner said:


> I have ordered to spec, my last three cars, as I feel that as costly as they were, I was willing to wait for them to be built, exactly as I wanted them.


Having only bought one new car and ordered it to spec, and then waited 5 months for delivery, I would never do it any other way. It particularly makes sense if you want to cherry pick your options. Example: I wasn’t sure to what extent this van would be used for cargo so I didn’t want interior carpeting, and I wanted the stiffer suspension and it’s 2100lb payload (vs 1850), but I wanted cruise control, backup camera, power mirrors, comfort seats, heated front seats, and painted bumpers and alloys. I also wanted a color that would stand out but not cost me $1000 for metallic, and given the choice between candy apple red, dark blue, refrigerator white and a misleadingly named pebble grey, I picked blue- pebble grey turned out to be German taxi yellow (creamish), and I would have went with that had I known.

Part of that is that commercial vehicles tend to have long and non-packagy option lists, and what you plan on doing with it Carrie’s. My next car will probably be a cargo electric Sprinter (as I said, discontinued Metris) that I will be ordering for a self build into half office, half cleaning supplies set up with a battery run independent air conditioner. I don’t think I’ll find that on the lot, do you?


----------



## railiner

Once upon a time, you could order what was then the largest selling car, (Chevrolet), and could option it out, line by line, so that there were thousands of possible different configurations. Through the years, most manufacturers took away that freedom, and only had limited choices with “popular” packages of options, to simplify manufacturing and dealer inventories. So now in order to get a particular option you desire, you are forced to get others along with it, that you may not desire.
Only some of the most expensive cars can still be optioned out, line by line…


----------

