# Comparing Amtrak Schedules, Past vs. Present



## Philly Amtrak Fan

After studying and reading about old Amtrak service, I get the sense I was born in the wrong era to be a train lover. I also hear a lot about trains being slower today than in the past as there is more gridlock. So I wanted to find out how much a difference there is today from the past.

I will compare schedules of trains from three different years, 1979 (schedule July 29, 1979, before Carter cuts), January 1995 when I first took the Broadway Limited (schedule October 30, 1994, last full year of BL) and 2015 (Winter/Spring 2016 schedule) to see how much of a difference through the years there is.

Schedules are as always based on timetables.org.

New York to Chicago:

1979: (BL) 3:00pm to 9:05am next day (19:05) or (LSL) 6:45pm (Grand Central Terminal) to 3:10pm next day (21:25)

1995: (BL) 12:45pm to 7:55am next day (20:10) or (LSL) 7:10pm to 12:58pm next day (18:45)

2015: (LSL) 3:40pm to 9:45am next day (19:05)

Ironically it appears the LSL took longer in 1979 than it does today. Was the 1979 schedule a misprint? The BL was faster in 1979 but the LSL was faster in 1995.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0034

Chicago to Los Angeles via SL/SWC:

1979: (Southwest Limited): 6:30pm to 9:05am 2 days later (40:35)

1995: (SWC) 5:00pm to 8:15am 2 days later (41:15)

2015: (SWC) 3:00pm to 8:15am 2 days later (43:15)

Today's train is 2 hr slower than 1995 and 2:40 slower than 1979. Pretty negligible considering a trip of 43:15 today.

Chicago to Dallas

1979: (Inter-American) 11:15am to 7:30am next day (20:15)

1995: (TE) 5:45pm to 2:24pm next day (20:39)

2015: (TE) 1:45pm to 11:30am next day (21:45)

Today's train is 1:30 slower than 1979 and 1:06 slower than 1995.

Today's train is

Philadelphia to Orlando via SS (SM in 1979 skipped ORL):

1979: 10:40am to 7:48am next day (21:08)

1995: 12:49pm to 10:05am next day (21:16)

2015: 12:35pm to 10:06am next day (21:31)


Almost no change from the old days.

Philadelphia to Chicago

1979: (BL) 4:22pm (North Philadelphia) or 4:25pm (through cars from WAS) to 9:05am next day (17:40)

1995: (BL) 2:57pm to 7:55am next day (17:58)

2015: (NER 95/CL) 12:02pm or 12:42pm (Pennsylvanian/CL) to 8:45am next day (21:03/21:43)

A 3-4 hr. difference from the old days. I wonder why.

Philadelphia to Los Angeles:

1979: (NL/SWL): 7:00pm to 9:05am 3 days later (64:05)

1995: (BL/SWC) 2:57pm to 8:15am 3 days later (67:18)

2015: (NER 95/CL/SWC 12:02pm or 12:42pm (Pennsylvanian/CL/SWC) to 8:15am 3 days later (69:33/70:13)

A 2-3 hr difference from 1995 but a 5.5-6 hr difference from 1979 as transferring in KCY made for a quicker trip. Then again, this is 5.5 hr out of a 70 hr trip.

Chicago to Orlando:

1979: (Floridian) 9:30pm to 9:05am 2 days later (34:35)

1995: (CL/SS) 6:25pm to 10:05am 2 days later (38:40)

2015: (CL/SS) 6:40pm to 10:06am 2 days later (38:26)

The transfer added about four hours to the trip between 1979 and 1995.

Among the trains where the route is the same as in 1979/1995, there was little change in trip times. But for those trips where a transfer was added or a different transfer was required, the additional time was more significant.

As much as I complain about transfers (and wrote a post about missed connections), at the very least transfers add time on to trips. A 5.5 hr difference on a formerly 65 hr trip probably isn't that much but a 3-4 hr difference on a trip that used to take 18 hrs is making the trip about 16% longer.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Among the trains where the route is the same as in 1979/1995, there was little change in trip times. But for those trips where a transfer was added or a different transfer was required, the additional time was more significant.
> 
> As much as I complain about transfers (and wrote a post about missed connections), at the very least transfers add time on to trips. A 5.5 hr difference on a formerly 65 hr trip probably isn't that much but a 3-4 hr difference on a trip that used to take 18 hrs is making the trip about 16% longer.


What is the point of this thread? When did anyone dispute transfers add time to travel and a comparison to a train that no longer operates isn't really valid.

Additionally, there are so many things different than in 1979 that comparison is really not feasible from anything other than a historic "just for the record" point of view. Operating rules have changed, numerous regulations have been added, hosts have changed, passengers themselves have changed, speeds have changed.

If you're a train lover, the 5.5 hours I suspect you're whining about for your cut train should be a pleasure.


----------



## Steve4031

It's an interesting piece of comparison imho. Though some might be comparing apples to oranges it's still fun to look at the changed.


----------



## neroden

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> After studying and reading about old Amtrak service, I get the sense I was born in the wrong era to be a train lover.


Also the wrong country. Move to China and it's a great era to be a train lover....
The underlying problem has been disinterest in or hostility to passenger service by the track owners; understandable given the economics of the period.

For what it's worth, Conrail made the NYC line its fast intermodal line and the Pennsy line its slow bulk line, which to a large extent accounts for the declining speed on the Pennsy line and rising speed on the NYC line. The predecessor railroads had different policies.


----------



## railiner

I also enjoy comparing Amtrak 'then and now'....

It is interesting to look back at Amtrak's first timetable, where trains ran mostly the identical timings that they did on the predecessor railroads the day before....hence The Broadway Limited, Train No. 48 ran its old Penn Central schedule (and train number) from Chicago to New York in only 16 hours and 50 minutes.... 

And there was no service between Buffalo and Chicago until the Lakeshore was started up later on. The only alternate route west from Buffalo was to detour via Toronto and Windsor/Detroit...


----------



## jis

I also find it interesting to compare today's Amtrak service on certain routes to the timetable from 1965 and marvel at how much better the service is today, while bemoaning the zillions of other routes where there was relatively lousy service back in 1965 which has no service today, and sometimes no tracks to run any service on today too.


----------



## railiner

The biggest Amtrak improvements since those days is in both the NEC and western corridor routes, with higher frequency of service...


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

railiner said:


> The biggest Amtrak improvements since those days is in both the NEC and western corridor routes, with higher frequency of service...


Unfortunately long distance travel was hit hard by the increase of air travel. These days, shorter trains will always be more popular.

This chart has a convenient Chicago chart for connections. I don't know why Amtrak doesn't publish this today.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0033

Back in 1979,

East to West:

7:00am - 56 from Florida

9:05am - 41 from New York/Washington (and Philly!)

3:10pm - 49 from New York/Boston

6:15pm - 51 from Washington/Cincinnati

11:15am- 21 to St. Louis/Laredo (not daily)

11:30am - 7/17 to Minneapolis/Seattle

4:10pm - 15 to Dallas/Houston

6:15pm - 5 to Denver/San Francisco

6:30pm - 3 to Los Angeles

West to East:

11:25am - 16 from Houston/Dallas

1:25pm - 6 from San Francisco/Denver

2:05pm - 4 from Los Angeles

2:15pm - 22 from Laredo/St. Louis (not daily)

6:59pm - 8/18 to Minneapolis/Seattle

9:55am - 50 to Cincinnati/Washington

3:30pm - 48 to New York/Boston

4:00pm - 40 to New York/Washington (and Philly!)

9:30pm - 57 to Florida

The old rules: 30 minutes or less not guaranteed, less than an hour not recommended. I wonder what the new "rules" would be today.

In 1979, the Empire Builder (7/8) and North Coast Hiawatha (17/18) alternated (4 days for EB, 3 days for NCW):

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0043

Also, the Inter-American (21/22) was daily until September and 3 days/week after:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0042

Back then the California trains left quite a bit later (6:15pm/6:30pm) and arrived a little earlier (1:25pm/2:05pm). The LSL didn't arrive into CHI until 3:10pm while the LSL left at 3:30pm and the BL left at 4pm. Can you imagine only a 1 hr 25 min window between the SWC and LSL today or even a 1 hr 55 window between the SWC and BL (if there was a BL) today? Right now, it's a 3 hr window and that misses 12% of the time.

Going west, the LSL allowed for about a 3 hr window to California and a 1 hr window to the Lone Star. The BL got in early. Back then, if you did PHL/LAX via CHI you would have a 9 hr wait in CHI (of course back then the NL was still running). I think it was good to have two different daily trains from NYP to CHI with staggered times.

For those hoping for a 6pm departure for the LSL today, imagine a 3:30pm/4pm departure and arriving in NYP at 12:20pm or 1:10pm!

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0034

I really don't think you could move either of the California trains now to arrive earlier and/or leave later and the shorter transfer windows wouldn't be practical today (maybe they weren't back then either).

The Floridian could transfer to all the western trains and accept passengers from all the western trains.

However,

The Seattle trains (EB/NCH) could only transfer to the Floridian going east and the Broadway and Floridian going west.

The Cardinal could not be used for East/West transfers (left too early/arrived too late) at all (well if you could have transferred from the 51 to the 3 in 15 minutes or the 51 to the 5 instantaneously then maybe)

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19790729&item=0035

It's clear back then that the Cardinal was scheduled for better arrival/departure times in CIN (CHI-CIN 9:55am-6:37pm, CIN-CHI 11:16am-6:15pm) and those allowed for better arrival/departure times to/from WAS as well. The current trains have graveyard shift departure/arrival times in CIN but allow for transfers in CHI. Back in 1979, the trains did not serve IND.

I've debated this and usually got negative responses from most but I ask would CIN rather have trains arriving/leaving at better times but lose transfers to the west in CHI or have the graveyard shift trains that allow for transfers? And is that important? I would say CIN and IND are the biggest unique markets of the Cardinal so shouldn't the trains be scheduled for their benefit the most (and if so, what is to their benefit)? If the Cardinal was scheduled to miss the CHI transfers, only the LSL and CL would allow for CHI transfers. But back in 1979, only the LSL and BL would (counting only NEC) so it would be no different today than it was in 1979 from a Chicago transfer standpoint.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

More from the timetables.org history:

This is the schedule from the very first Amtrak schedule listed (May 1971)

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0018

Many of the routes have individual maps in addition to the full national map. It shows some of the major points and some transfer/through cars.

I wish they still had the HAR-WAS route (Port Road?)


----------



## jis

Port Road was electrified back then. The Washington Section of the Broadway Limited operated on it powered by a GG-1. That electrification is now gone, as is the Broadway Limited and its Washington Section. And of course the National Limited and its Washington Section is gone too.


----------



## railiner

Prior to Amtrak, the Port Road was freight-only, for a very long time....one of the very rare cases of Amtrak actually bringing back passenger service to a route, instead of eliminating it.

Before Amtrak, Penn Central still operated at least one connecting train up the old PRR Northern Central branch to connect Washington and Baltimore to Harrisburg and the West. That route which featured street running thru York, Pa., is now gone....


----------



## Bradenmeridian

I appreciate this look into the variations in travel times over the years. Sometimes you just wonder how good it could be, even with conventional service, i.e. the 20th Century running New York to Chicago in 15:30 at its fastest. I know, fewer stops, and was there even a Boston segment to slow things down? Still makes you see what's possible with essentially no capital investment in track, signals or rolling stock, only scheduling and host railroad priority.


----------



## jis

The 20th Century limited did not have a Boston section at least in 1965. There was a separate train from Boston to Chicago which was much slower with many more stops.


----------



## railiner

Bradenmeridian said:


> I appreciate this look into the variations in travel times over the years. Sometimes you just wonder how good it could be, even with conventional service, i.e. the 20th Century running New York to Chicago in 15:30 at its fastest. I know, fewer stops, and was there even a Boston segment to slow things down? Still makes you see what's possible with essentially no capital investment in track, signals or rolling stock, only scheduling and host railroad priority.


It was the Broadway Limited, not the Century, that made the 15', 30" schedule....believe the Century managed a 15', 45" schedule at its shortest....

Of course some NYC partisans would make the point that the Century was faster, as it had to make about 53 more miles to complete its route...


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> The 20th Century limited did not have a Boston section at least in 1965. There was a separate train from Boston to Chicago which was much slower with many more stops.


The "Boston section", or top carded train,was called The New England States....


----------



## oldtimer

In 1973 when the RTG turboliners made their debut on the Chicago-St.Louis train #301,302,303,and 304, the scheduled running time was 4 hours 59 minutes. This was achieved 85% of the time!


----------



## railiner

And at one time, there was a "Non-stop" Metroliner that was carded for 2 hours and 30 minutes between New York and Washington.

Don't know how it measured up overall, but the day I rode it, it made the run in 2:29. We crossed New Jersey fast...only 39 minutes from NYP to Morrisville, Pa!


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep,good memories! Those Metroliners were Fast and Very Comfortable to ride in! I still prefer them to the current Acelas! YMMV


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Here are some more schedule changes between today and my first Amtrak LD trip, the Broadway Limited in January 1995 (using timetables.org Fall 1994 schedules: http://www.timetables.org/browse/?group=19941030n&st=0001). 

Carolinian:

NYP 7:20am, PHL 9:02am, WAS 11:25am, RVR 1:35pm, RGH 5:03pm, GBO 7:18pm, CLT 9:05pm

CLT 8:15am, GBO 9:59am, RGH 12:10pm, RVR 3:45pm, WAS 6:05pm, PHL 8:38pm, NYP 10:27pm

About an hour faster (probably due to faster NEC). I wonder if CLT couldn't be moved back to 8:15am instead of the earlier 7:00am now. It would still arrive in NYP before 10pm.

Palmetto (Traveled to ORL/TPA):
NYP 9:25am, PHL 10:58am, WAS 1:55pm, RIC 4:15pm, JAX 3:05am, ORL 6:43am, TPA 8:40am

TPA 9:25pm, ORL 11:11pm, JAX 2:21am, RIC 2:35pm, WAS 4:55pm, PHL 7:47pm, NYP 9:24pm
Silver Star (ORL/TPA and MIA branches separate at JAX):

NYP 10:45am, PHL 12:49pm, WAS 3:45pm, RIC 6:05pm, RGH 9:42pm, JAX 6:28am, ORL 10:05am, TPA 12:02pm, MIA 3:00pm

MIA 11:25am, TPA 2:25pm, ORL 4:12pm, JAX 8:05pm, RGH 4:56am, RIC 8:30am, WAS 10:50am, PHL 1:38pm, NYP 3:40pm



Silver Meteor:

NYP 3:45pm, PHL 5:48pm, WAS 8:24pm, RIC 10:34pm, JAX 9:22am, ORL 12:57pm, MIA 6:05pm

MIA 7:25am, ORL 12:36pm, JAX 4:00pm, RIC 3:06am, WAS 5:16am, PHL 8:09am, NYP 9:45am

Back then, the Palmetto also served Orlando and Tampa. One thing better about 2016 is that you can go from Tampa to Miami by train (it didn't look like you could in 1994/95). The Palmetto NEC times seemed better than they are today (later departure, earlier arrival).

The later SS northbound arrival into WAS (now 2:38pm) squeezed out the CL/SS connection going from Florida to CHI. I'm guessing WAS likes the later northbound arrival on the SM than the 5:16am back then though.
Crescent:

NYP 1:42pm, PHL 3:43pm, WAS 6:50pm, GBO 1:13am, CLT 2:58am, ALT 8:30am, NOL 7:28pm

NOL 7:05am, ATL 7:45am, CLT 1:04am, GBO 2:55am, WAS 9:28am, PHL 12:24pm, NYP 2:45pm

Pretty similar times today with the slightly faster service along the NEC.

Cardinal:
NYP 9:24am, PHL 11:17am, WAS 1:45pm, CVS 4:20pm, CIN 3:55am, IND 7:45am, CHI 11:25am

CHI 7:40pm, IND 12:54am, CIN 4:45am, CVS 4:11pm, WAS 7:05pm, PHL 9:54pm, NYP 11:30pm

I'm guessing the train missed connections to the west more often with the later arrival but connections from the west less often with the later departure. Indy had a better departure to CHI but a worse arrival from CHI. If the train left CHI two hours later today, it would arrive in NYP pretty close to if not after midnight.

Broadway Limited:

NYP 12:45pm, PHL 2:57pm, HAR 5:10pm, PGH 11:02pm, CHI 7:55am

CHI 8:35pm, PGH 7:25am, HAR 1:15pm, PHL 3:29pm, NYP 5:50pm

Pennsylvanian:
NYP 7:47am, PHL 9:24am, HAR 11:46am, PGH 5:35pm

(M-Sa) PGH 10:15am, HAR 4:00pm, PHL 6:06pm, NYP 8:00pm

I've discussed BL/TR too much but I will say PGH also lost a lot from losing the trains. The BL/TR was much better for PGH-CHI travel and it was better to have two trains to PHL/NYP compared to the one today. The Pennsylvanian left PGH only about 3 hrs later than the BL, maybe it could have left later for a larger gap to arrive in NYP around 10pm?

Capitol Limited:
WAS 4:05pm, PGH 11:47pm, CLE 3:07am, TOL 5:09am, CHI 9:00am

CHI 6:25pm, TOL 11:45pm, CLE 1:39am, PGH 4:55am, WAS 12:22pm

Not much change in the overall schedule.

Lake Short Limited:
BOS 4:20pm, NYP 7:10pm, ALB 10:23pm, SYR 12:57am, BUF 3:51am, CLE 7:06am, TOL 9:34am, NYP 12:58pm

NYP 7:15pm, TOL 12:26am, CLE 2:51am, BUF 6:02am, SYR 8:40am, ALB 11:17am, NYP 2:49pm, BOS 5:10pm

I'm not sure about the later westbound arrival into Chicago. If that time existed today, there'es no way you could make the TE and CZ and any delays from the LSL would make you miss the SWC. It also left BUF in the middle of the night but Ohio couldn't complain about the westbound times. Of course NYP also had the BL to get to CHI then too.

Eastbound this is the earlier arrival that a few of you have been dreaming about. Of course, this was when the BL existed (although the departure was 8:35pm and not 9:30pm as the LSL is today).

City of New Orleans:
CHI 7:50pm, CHM 10:21pm, MEM 6:15am, NOL 2:30pm

NOL 2:45pm, MEM 10:47pm, CHM 6:30am, CHI 9:10am

About an hour longer in each direction today but not much difference in times.

I will do the western trains later.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Continuing ...

Sunset Limited:

MIA 12:30pm, ORL 5:28pm, JAX 9:07pm, NOL 11:00am/1:20pm, HOS 9:50pm, SAS 2:25/2:55am, ELP 1:25/1:45pm, Phoenix 10:40pm, LAX 6:15am

LAX 10:30pm, Phoenix 8:08am, ELP 4:40/5:00pm, SAS 5:30/6:15am, HOS 10:55am, NOL 7:35/10:40pm, JAX 2:05pm, ORL 5:35pm, MIA 10:55pm

The LAX and SAS times are about the same as they are now. If they ever want to serve SAS going east/west, they're going to need better times as I had suggested in my post about rescheduling the SL. There must be some bottleneck now between NOL and SAS as the train takes about 2 hours longer today. The train didn't allow same day connections to the Crescent or CONO unless you count going south on 19 to east on 2 and there would be almost no reason to do so I can think of. The SL also functioned as a late night train from ORL to MIA (none exist today). Not only did LAX-Phoenix exist but the times were almost entirely overnight in the "sweet spot" Nate had suggested in the post about Amtrak trains competitive with airplanes.

Texas Eagle (21/22 to SAS, 521/522 to HOS, split apparently before DAL):
CHI 5:45pm, STL 12:15am, DAL 2:24pm on 521, 2:49pm on 21, FTW 4:12/4:32pm, HOS 10:00pm, SAS 11:40pm (see SL schedule west of SAS)

SAS 7:05am, HOS 8:25am, FTW 2:10/2:30pm, DAL 4:05pm, STL 6:55am, CHI 1:35pm

I'm wondering why the DAL-HOS branch was cut off. It would seem to have pretty good ridership between two major markets, the train is around 6 hrs each way (not terrible) and College Station (Texas A&M) is along the route (you would think A&M students would want to go to DAL or HOS to go "home"). Now going from CHI to HOS requires a Thruway Bus for over 6 hrs each way or an overnight in SAS or NOL. That is one service I feel has to come back in some form. I suggested extending the Heartland Flyer south from Ft. Worth to Houston.

The train looks to take about 2 hrs longer going southbound but much less northbound. I think the later departure helps passengers from the east (especially from the LSL which didn't get into CHI until almost 1pm).

Southwest Chief:

CHI: 5:00pm, KCY 12:45am/1:00am, ABQ 4:55pm/5:15pm, FLG 10:15pm, LAX 8:15am

LAX: 8:15pm, FLG 7:15am, ABQ 12:55pm/1:15pm, KCY 6:45am/7:05am, CHI 3:25pm

Also appears to be 2 hrs longer each way with the later departure from CHI and the earlier departure from LAX. I'm guessing KCY likes the current westbound times than the ones back then. The 5:00pm departure allowed more leeway from the later LSL arrival into CHI.

Desert Wind:

CHI: 3:05pm, OMA 11:35/11:59pm, LNK 1:02/1:12am, DEN 8:10/9:10am, SLC 11:36pm/12:45am, Las Vegas 7:50/8:05am, LAX 3:20pm

LAX: 10:55am, Las Vegas 5:45/6:00pm, SLC 3:30/5:05am, DEN 7:40/9:00pm, LNK 5:15/5:25am, OMA 6:25/6:50am, CHI 4:15pm

Empire Builder:

CHI: 3:15pm, MKE 4:51pm, MSP 11:23/11:59pm, SPK 2:10/2:40/2:55am, PDX 10:20am, SEA 10:35am

SEA: 5:00pm, PDX 5:20pm, SPK 12:45/1:00/1:35am, MSP 7:40/8:20am, MKE 2:46pm, CHI 4:24pm

Pioneer (3x week):

CHI: 3:05pm, OMA 11:35/11:59pm, LNK 1:02/1:12am, DEN 8:10/9:45am, Ogden 9:26/9:46pm, Boise 3:59am, PDX 2:05/2:40pm, SEA 6:35pm

SEA: 7:30am, PDX 11:25/11:40am, Boise 11:26pm, Ogden 6:18/6:38am, DEN 6:05/9:00pm, LNK 5:15/5:25am, OMA 6:25/6:50am, CHI 4:15pm


California Zephyr:
CHI: 3:05pm, OMA 11:35/11:59pm, LNK 1:02/1:12am, DEN 8:10/9:10am, SLC 11:36pm/12:35am, SAC 2:40pm, EMY 5:00pm
EMY 10:05am, SAC 12:12pm, SLC 3:45/5:05am, DEN 7:40/9:00pm, LNK 5:15/5:25am, OMA 6:25/6:50am, CHI 4:15pm

This was when three different trains shared CHI-DEN service and the DW and CZ shared DEN-SLC service. The westbound leaves an hour earlier today while the eastbound arrives an hour earlier today but the CHI-EMY travel times look about the same today as back then.

Coast Starlight:
SEA: 9:10am, PDX 1:20/1:45pm, SAC 5:30am, EMY 7:30/7:45am, SJC 9:00am, LAX 8:10pm
LAX: 9:55am, SJC 7:55pm, EMY 9:18/9:33am, SAC 12:22am, PDX 4:00/4:30pm, SEA 8:45pm

Back then the CS didn't serve Oakland. Roughly the same times as today.
So Chicago E-W transfer times:

BL: 7:55am, CL 9:00am, Cardinal 11:25am, LSL 12:58pm
CZ/DW/Pioneer: 3:05pm, EB 3:15pm, SWC 5:00pm, TE 5:45pm

I'm guessing LSL to CZ/DW/Pioneer and EB was tight and there were frequent missed connections and that frequent travelers would know better to take the BL from NYP to CHI if they wanted to catch one of the western trains other than the SWC and TE. With today's CZ leaving at 2pm and EB leaving at 2:15pm, no way could the LSL arrive at 12:58pm (especially with no BL).

Chicago W-E transfer times:
TE 1:35pm, SWC 3:25pm, CZ/DW/Pioneer 4:15pm, EB 4:24pm
CL 6:25pm, LSL 7:15pm, Cardinal 7:40pm, BL 8:35pm

The later CZ/DW/Pioneer and EB would make connections to the CL difficult. Ironically now the LSL is later than the BL was back then even though the CZ gets in before 3pm and the EB before 4pm. Maybe the LSL leaves later to avoid arriving in NYP during the evening rush although the BL back then arrived in NYP at 5:50pm.


----------



## Eric S

A couple comments...

I think the Texas Eagle's Houston section was cut during a relatively small cost/service-cutting phase in the mid 1990s, before the great purge that saw all (or at least most) Western trains drop to less than daily service.

As far as Oakland, this would have been during a period after 16th Street Station (which was damaged in the 1989 earthquake) was closed and before Jack London Square station opened. I believe Emeryville was the primary "Oakland" station for a period of time.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I decide to update this thread, comparing Amtrak today to the beginning of Amtrak based on the first posted Amtrak Timetable (May 1, 1971) from the Museum of Railway Timetables. There is an attached .pdf file at the bottom of the post summarizing the timetable.

Here is the Eastern national map shown: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0017

The Western page (other side) looks almost identical to today's map in terms of LD trains. The biggest differences I saw were there was no Amtrak San Joaquin service and the Sunset (listed as Sunset and not Sunset Limited) ran through Phoenix.

From the Eastern half, one of the biggest missing large city was Cleveland. It was hard to imagine Amtrak leaving Cleveland out at the very beginning (Cleveland had almost twice as many people in 1970 as it did in 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland).This was of course before the LSL. Dallas had no service that I could see at the beginning of Amtrak (the map shows a dotted line connecting Dallas to Ft. Worth and Houston, the Texas Chief served both Ft. Worth and Houston but ran through Temple).

Of the trains that ran through the Pacific Time Zone, the LD train routes were roughly the same as they are now except the California Zephyr only ran 3x/week between Denver and Oakland, the Seattle-LA train (no name listed) only ran 3x/week but also ran to San Diego. On the days the Seattle-San Diego train didn't run, there was a train from Oakland to LA (no name listed). There was also regional service between Los Angeles and San Diego although only 2x/day compared to the many today. There wasn't any regional service between Oakland and Sacramento other than the California Zephyr. The Sunset back then was also 3x/week as it still is today.

Over in the East Coast, they did not list any New York-Harrisburg trains other than the Broadway Limited, National Limited, and Duquesne (the New York-Pittsburgh train at the time). They did have quite a few New York-Philadelphia trains as well as New York-Washington and Boston-Washington trains. The only service I saw through Virginia were the LD trains.

Back then, there was the James Whitcomb Riley from Cincinnati to Chicago and the George Washington from Newport News/Washington to Cincinnati. Both trains were daily. You could connect from the GW to the JWR in Cincinnati going west but not going east: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0023. 

There were three trains from New York to Florida, the Silver Star, the Silver Meteor, and the Champion although the routes were different. The Silver Meteor went through Raleigh and the Champion went through Charleston: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0021. You can argue the Champion is now the Palmetto without the Florida part. The South Wind used to run between Chicago and Florida via Louisville, Nashville, and Montgomery: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19710501&item=0025.

The Southern Crescent (as it was called) was only daily from New York to Atlanta and 3x/week between Atlanta and New Orleans.

The Texas train was called the Texas Chief and ran via Kansas City, Wichita, and Oklahoma City. There was no train through Little Rock at the time and the only San Antonio train was the Sunset. There was no service between New Orleans and Florida either as the Sunset terminated eastbound in New Orleans (as it does today).

In terms of East to Midwest trains, the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited essentially replaced the Broadway and Spirit of St. Louis although they serve much different cities (although it was good they do serve Cleveland). The James Whitcomb Riley/George Washington essentially merged to the Cardinal. Passengers from Washington (and Baltimore) used through cars to the Broadway Limited to get to/from Chicago and to the Spirit of St. Louis to St. Louis/Kansas City. St. Louis-Kansas City was served by the Spirit of St. Louis at the time as there were no other service between the cities at the time.

It's pretty clear Amtrak has expanded statewide trains a lot since 1971 but long distance service has shrinked since then. While they added Cleveland and Dallas as well as the Auto Train, they lost Phoenix, Columbus, Louisville, Nashville, and many others. At the time, there was no service to Las Vegas but back in 1970 the population of Vegas was 125,787 compared to 613,999 in 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Vegas). I think trading the Broadway/Spirit of St. Louis for the Capitol Limited was a horrible trade although you all knew I would think that. Certainly the CL is fewer miles between Chicago and Washington and serves Cleveland and Toledo as opposed to Canton and Ft. Wayne but you traded in most of Pennsylvania (and Baltimore) for the tiny population between Pittsburgh and Washington. There is no direct service from the East Coast/Indianapolis to St. Louis/Kansas City anymore although I'm not sure that is as big a loss (but losing Columbus is). I'm not sold on trading Wichita and Oklahoma City for Little Rock although serving San Antonio and Houston is a definite plus.

I am assuming Amtrak has never had a 3-C route connecting Cleveland and Cincinnati. Today that looks like a giant hole in the Amtrak system but back then Cleveland and Cincinnati had many more people than they do today (Columbus had a lot less). You can blame Kasich all you want for no 3-C in 2010 but what about the nearly 40 years before then, especially before the 750 mile rule? And Cincinnati also had no route to Pittsburgh either. They couldn't have used Penn Central's Cincinnati Limited (http://www.american-rails.com/cinn-ltd.html)? At least back then Cincinnati had trains arriving/leaving at good times as opposed to today.

Please point out any mistakes.

Beginning of Amtrak.pdf


----------



## Bob Dylan

This was your best post ever Philly! Good job! Most enjoyable, I agree with lots of your ideas.

But as many of us have said, we don't want to cut LD Trains ( the Cardinal, your pet peeve) to add a Broadway Ltd.

IMO The Cardinal should run to St Louis, perhaps even to Kansas City also, not to Chicago.

And the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Cap in PGH is the easiest way to go, not aNew Broadway Ltd.


----------



## CCC1007

Until 1979 or so the southern railroad kept the crescent as one of their own trains.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

To go a little bit farther back before Amtrak... http://www.thejoekorner.com/brochures/index-timetables-panyc.html

They show the old PRR (http://www.thejoekorner.com/brochures/prr-timetable/index.html ) and NYC (http://www.thejoekorner.com/brochures/NYC-timetable/index.html ) schedules from 1967 before the PC merger. They do have the NYC trains from PC in 1968 but not the PRR ones.

If I had to choose parts of PRR and NYC as a basis for East-Midwest travel in 1971, I probably take

PRR:

New York-Chicago route (via Philly, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh). I'd also run a separate train New York-Pittsburgh.

Pittsburgh-St. Louis route (via Columbus, Dayton, Indianapolis).

Chicago-Louisville route (via Indianapolis). This could wind up merging the South Wind from Chicago to Florida using the Louisville & Nashville and Seaboard Coast Line routes shown in the PRR timetable).

NYC:

New York-Chicago route (via Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo)

Boston-Chicago route (via Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo, Detroit)

Cleveland-Cincinnati route (via Columbus, Dayton)

Chicago-Cincinnati route (via Indianapolis). I would then continue this train to Columbus, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, Baltimore, and Washington using the old PRR Cincinnati-Washington line. So this route would be NYC west of CIN and PRR east of it! PRR did have a Chicago to Cincinnati train but it skipped Indianapolis so the NYC route would be preferred.

There would be four main routes from Chicago to the East Coast.

To Boston via Detroit, Canada, Buffalo, and Albany (NYC)

To New York via Cleveland, Buffalo, and Albany (NYC)

To New York/Philadelphia via Pittsburgh, Harrisburg (PRR)

To Baltimore/Washington via Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg (NYC/PRR)

Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Detroit, and Indianapolis would all have one direct line heading west to Chicago and east to the East Coast.

There could be some flexibility between the Cleveland and Detroit trains in terms of heading to New York and/or to Boston with a split at Albany and some flexibility between the Indy/Ohio and Canton trains heading to Philadelphia/New York and/or to Baltimore/Washington with a split at Harrisburg. I think having at least one to Boston, one to New York, one to Philadelphia (which continues to New York), and one to Baltimore/Washington is important as well as serving the key Midwestern cities.

If demand warrants, Cleveland-Cincinnati could be extended to New York and/or Boston although in 1967 there was no Ohio State Limited anymore. Maybe it could be a through car branch off of the New York-Chicago train at Cleveland. Technically you could do an all NYC routed train Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati-Columbus-Cleveland-Buffalo-Albany-New York but that seems zig-zaggy. I couldn't find any route on PRR or NYC from Pittsburgh to Cleveland in either 1967 timetable. I don't believe PRR even served Cleveland then.

If demand warrants, St. Louis-Pittsburgh could be extended to Philadelphia/New York and/or Baltimore/Washington or the St. Louis-Pittsburgh leg could be a through car branch off of the New York-Chicago train at Pittsburgh.

This would have been far more than what Amtrak actually took. Could they have afforded it? Would something else have not been added to Amtrak to account for my proposed routes?

Also at the main scheduling page was a 1960 Lackawanna Railroad timetable which served Scranton, PA with service to New York and to Buffalo: http://www.thejoekorner.com/brochures/dlw-timetable/index.html. It would be nice if Scranton had trains today.


----------



## neroden

The loss of the north-south NYC routes in Ohio (Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincy and Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincy) was very bad for Ohio. I'm not quite sure when that happened.... either during Penn Central, or on Amtrak-Day. Anyone know for sure?


----------



## Eric S

I think NARP used to have maps of passenger rail service in the years before and after Amtrak, something like 1960, 1965, 1971 pre-Amtrak, etc, but I could not find them in a quick search of the site.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Here's a question. If you can go back to the Amtrak route system any year since 1971 (pre-Amtrak is not an option), which would you choose?

As I said before, the first Amtrak didn't serve Cleveland or Dallas so I wouldn't want that.

The obvious answer would be before the 1979 cuts while the Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star were still running. Also, the Broadway Limited had the through cars to WAS. Sure, the CL is better for CHI-WAS but the BL was better for BAL. Also, the Cardinal actually served CIN at good hours instead of the current graveyard shift time.

However, there was no train service to Las Vegas (Desert Wind, which also connected DEN/SLC with LAX), no train service from Detroit-Toledo, and no train service on the SL east of NOL (that begun in 1993). I'm impartial to the Texas Eagle split to serve Houston via College Station (Southern Pacific?) which wasn't served by the Lone Star (

I'm torn between these two eras (before 1979 but after the LSL started and from the beginning of the coast to coast SL to the BL getting axed). So I would say 1978 or 1994. What do you think?


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Bob Dylan said:


> This was your best post ever Philly! Good job! Most enjoyable, I agree with lots of your ideas.
> 
> But as many of us have said, we don't want to cut LD Trains ( the Cardinal, your pet peeve) to add a Broadway Ltd.


If we can afford both, I have no objection.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Bob Dylan said:


> IMO The Cardinal should run to St Louis, perhaps even to Kansas City also, not to Chicago.


That would give the Cardinal a unique purpose. It would be similar to the old National Limited route west of IND.



Bob Dylan said:


> And the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Cap in PGH is the easiest way to go, not aNew Broadway Ltd.


Easiest and certainly an improvement but I think a separate train would be more beneficial.

In fact, they used to run the CL/TR through cars (similar to the proposal) but then decided to run the TR to CHI as a separate train.

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/trains-and-routes/three-rivers/

"The switching costs of interchanging head-end and passengers cars in Pittsburgh were negating the saving from having discontinued the _Broadway Limited_. The interchange also at times hindered the on-time performance of the _Three Rivers_ and the _Capitol Limited."_

Similarly I believe the CL was spun off from the BL as they used to run the trains together CHI-PGH.

I feel there is demand for both the BL and CL, especially if the BL is diverted through Michigan to add direct service from Michigan to PA/NJ/NY. In 2004, the TR had 149,562 riders. Back in 1991, the BL had about 190,000 and the CL had about 170,000 (at least according to this TrainOrders post: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2993507).


----------



## Bob Dylan

I'd take the 1978 Schedule (pre-Carter cuts) since I liked the Lone Star Route, the Broadway Ltd. and the National Limited too! Never rode the Floridian!


----------



## Eric S

If I'm picking an old route map, do I also have to accept the lower levels of service over corridors from that time as well?

Many, if not most, corridors have better service today than perhaps any time in the Amtrak era.

In other words, I don't want to gain a National Limited or Broadway Limited or Lone Star or Floridian if that means I lose all the new service in California or the Cascades or the improved service in the Northeast. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of today? OK, count me in. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of that period as well? No thanks,


----------



## MARC Rider

Eric S said:


> If I'm picking an old route map, do I also have to accept the lower levels of service over corridors from that time as well?
> 
> Many, if not most, corridors have better service today than perhaps any time in the Amtrak era.
> 
> In other words, I don't want to gain a National Limited or Broadway Limited or Lone Star or Floridian if that means I lose all the new service in California or the Cascades or the improved service in the Northeast. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of today? OK, count me in. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of that period as well? No thanks,


Come to think about it, even NEC service in the late 70s early 80s wasn't as good as it is now. There was even a time when I stopped riding it, as you could fly up to Newark for cheaper than an Amtrak ticket. BAL to NYP was 3 hours or so, and frequencies were less than today. I don't remember when I noticed that all the trains were faster and more frequent, but certainly by the mid 90s.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I'd like to separate map from level of service. I would hope service would be better, more modern, and faster (which in many LD trains isn't true if you compare schedules). No doubt the Acela is better and faster than the old service along the NEC but NEC service always existed to my knowledge (has there been any time you haven't been able to travel between BOS and WAS?). How many meaningful city pairs (one seat rides) exist in 2016 that didn't exist before 1995? I wouldn't consider frequency increases either unless a city gains service outside of the graveyard shift.

October 1994 National Map:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0022

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0023

The only additions I see since 1994 was Maine and Oklahoma.


----------



## railiner

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Here's a question. If you can go back to the Amtrak route system any year since 1971 (pre-Amtrak is not an option), which would you choose?
> 
> .......what do you think?


Too bad "pre-Amtrak is not an option"....

I would probably choose somewhere around 1956, as that is when the streamliner's were at their peak, The national network was incredible, compared with what we have today...


----------



## railiner

neroden said:


> The loss of the north-south NYC routes in Ohio (Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincy and Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincy) was very bad for Ohio. I'm not quite sure when that happened.... either during Penn Central, or on Amtrak-Day. Anyone know for sure?


Can't dig out my archives easily to check, but IIRC, just prior to Amtrak, the Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincinnati route was last operated by the C&O and B&O on their route via Deshler, Lima, and Sidney....


----------



## Seaboard92

Well if we could go back to the 1956 map we would run into an issue. Some of the routes would be routes without tracks. Lots of abandonments since deregulation.


----------



## Seaboard92

As late as October of 70 you could take Penn Central from CIN-CLE same day. With a connection in Columbus. But going to Cin westbound there was an overnight connection to go from CLE by them.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?


----------



## jis

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?


That would not satisfy the "nostalgia" aspect, which is a major pastime of many railfans.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?
> 
> 
> 
> That would not satisfy the "nostalgia" aspect, which is a major pastime of many railfans.
Click to expand...

Exactly....I don't expect to see in the rest of my life, any semblance of the service that I did see in my lifetime...I would love to be able to go back in time to see them again, and of course to ride routes that I never got a chance to....


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?


New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.

The one advantage to old routes is Amtrak has some familiarity with the routes. Now some may not be usable anymore but some are. Also, maybe a city that used to have Amtrak but doesn't now might still have the station in place.


----------



## railiner

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?
> 
> 
> 
> New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.
Click to expand...

If you were around before Amtrak, your favorite train would have to have been, The Pennsylvania Limited....unlike the other PRR New York-Chicago limiteds, it served PHL...that is Thirtieth Street Station (it actually was hauled backwards from New York to Philly to facilitate the move). The other trains stopped in North Philadelphia, and took the "subway" bypass to the Main Line....


----------



## jphjaxfl

railiner said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?
> 
> 
> 
> New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you were around before Amtrak, your favorite train would have to have been, The Pennsylvania Limited....unlike the other PRR New York-Chicago limiteds, it served PHL...that is Thirtieth Street Station (it actually was hauled backwards from New York to Philly to facilitate the move). The other trains stopped in North Philadelphia, and took the "subway" bypass to the Main Line....
Click to expand...

The Pennsylvania Limited left Chicago later at night so it provided overnight service to Pittsburgh and daylight service through the Horsehoe Curve. It provided a good connection to trains like Santa Fe's Chief which was a 2 day, 1 night trip from Los Angeles to Chicago on a time schedule close to the Super Chief.


----------



## Seaboard92

The Chief was the premier ATSF train before the Super Chief started running. And if it had been any other railroad it probably would have been the highest of the fleet.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Sadly (or happily depending on how you look at it), I wasn't born before the start of Amtrak. So I do get jealous of all these pre-Amtrak trains/services described. But of course back then train travel was a competitive market and not a Congress run service with no competition and no incentive to improve service or attract business.

Still, I think service was better in the Amtrak era than it is today since my first appearance with Amtrak way back in the early 90's and while the 1979 cuts were bad, there were some steps forward in Amtrak between 1979-1994 (SL East, Auto Train, Lake Cities, DAL-HOU via College Station) and there have hardly been any steps forward since 1994 outside of state supported routes. Also, several trains schedules are longer today than they were back in the 90's which seems backwards. We can argue about frequencies, service, etc, but the biggest selling point of train service is simply having one to go from point A to point B and no one can argue there's less today than 1994.


----------



## railiner

jphjaxfl said:


> railiner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Metra Electric Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?
> 
> 
> 
> New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you were around before Amtrak, your favorite train would have to have been, The Pennsylvania Limited....unlike the other PRR New York-Chicago limiteds, it served PHL...that is Thirtieth Street Station (it actually was hauled backwards from New York to Philly to facilitate the move). The other trains stopped in North Philadelphia, and took the "subway" bypass to the Main Line....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Pennsylvania Limited left Chicago later at night so it provided overnight service to Pittsburgh and daylight service through the Horsehoe Curve. It provided a good connection to trains like Santa Fe's Chief which was a 2 day, 1 night trip from Los Angeles to Chicago on a time schedule close to the Super Chief.
Click to expand...

The Pennsylvania Limited departed New York at around 11:30 PM...about an hour later than NYC's Chicagoan....

And I believe it departed Chicago also around that time...I guess you could call it the ultimate "clean-up" train....


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Some more discussion on old Amtrak routes: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/877-discontinued-amtrak-route-you-want-revived/page-3

The discussion was from 2003 while the Three Rivers was still running so they aren't included in the poll.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

In the old Texas Eagle Houston leg (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031), they list "Southern Pacific Lines" for DAL-HOS by way of College Station. I don't believe Southern Pacific is still around today, did they get merged into Union Pacific? Does UP still own the DAL-College Station-HOS line? If not, who does? And what is the conditions of the track?


----------



## Seaboard92

Union Pacific merged Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, Rio Grande, KATY, and Missouri Pacific into it. I think the track is still there.


----------



## railiner

Going back into the pre-Amtrak era, the principal rivals to SP on the Dallas-Houston route were the joint operation of the Burlington/Rock Island, who's Zephyr and Rocket actually had the fastest (4 hours) time. Santa Fe also ran service, but a lot slower....as did the Katy, and via a circuitous connection, the MP....


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Sadly (or happily depending on how you look at it), I wasn't born before the start of Amtrak. So I do get jealous of all these pre-Amtrak trains/services described. But of course back then train travel was a competitive market and not a Congress run service with no competition and no incentive to improve service or attract business.


It's always been my understanding that a lot more of the passenger service was indirectly subsidized by USPS contracts than we talk about today and once those ended passenger service tanked rapidly. That's the problem with competition - too many services competing for too few passengers (good, rail, but not distance examples, the two subway lines along or near the Grand Concourse in the Bronx cannibalizing each other as well as some areas of London which have parallel routes and stations from the Victorian era - though today with their loading, probably less duplicative). Plus there was lingering residual dislike, mis or distrust and suspicion of the Robber Barons which lingered through the progressive era, which I believe led to more road construction over rail investment (plus, obviously, not wanting to spend on private benefits). And the passenger network seems to have started contracting much earlier than the fifties - although it was also heavily overbuilt in some areas.

I firmly believe the future of Amtrak is more corridor trains with better service which may lead to a few more long distance services. I have to ask myself, as an aside, was rail travel really all that great 'back in the day' and what is left of the nostalgia just successful marketing for the crack trains. I've heard stories about the "student fares" between Chicago and Oakland from a friend and how dreary the trip was after the first few times... I can't remember the specific train at the moment, would have been in the mid sixties.


----------



## Bob Dylan

MER: your post pretty much nails it as pertains to passenger rail in the "Golden Days!"

I used to ride alot on the Southern,Mopac,Katy,Santa Fe and the SP back in the 40s and 50s and except for the Santa Fe, there was a world of difference between the Crack Trains and the rest. ( they were transitioning from Steam to Diesel then, but as a kid I loved Steamers!)

"Luxuries" such as Reclining Seats, AC and Dependable Heat, Cafe Cars Diners,Dome Cars and Luxury Lounges were the exception rather than the rule, and while there was extensive and frequent service to most places, the Fares were actually High for the times, especially in Sleeping Cars!

The strangest time was when the RRs, spearheaded by the SP, started their "run 'em off" campaign so they could get out of the passenger business!

Strange days indeed! Sort of like the current Bean Counter Management @ 60 Mass! YMMV


----------



## Seaboard92

If you study the Penn Central you will actually find out today's trains are better then what we had back then. Back then hvac worked fifty percent of the time as well as the lights. Along with other issues. Including water between the double panes of glass creating a defacto aquarium. So in ways we've come far and lost a lot


----------



## railiner

Passenger rail peaked early in the twentieth century, and slowly started declining during the great depression, with a brief respite during WW II, and then, even when many railways invested in wonderful new streamliners and domeliners post war....passenger's deserted them to the new subsidized superhighways and airways.

As was mentioned, the removal of first class mail from the railroads in the late sixties was the final nail in the coffin, and the railways had no choice but to attempt to exit the passenger business, hence the creation of Amtrak.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> If you study the Penn Central you will actually find out today's trains are better then what we had back then. Back then hvac worked fifty percent of the time as well as the lights. Along with other issues. Including water between the double panes of glass creating a defacto aquarium. So in ways we've come far and lost a lot


If you live in New York, Washington, or other places, the trains are better today. If you live in Las Vegas, Nashville, Columbus, Phoenix, or Louisville, the trains with broken hvac/lights were better than the trains they have today. There are other cities that had many substandard trains today and only have one per day (or three per week) today. Would you rather have more lousy trains or fewer better trains?



railiner said:


> Passenger rail peaked early in the twentieth century, and slowly started declining during the great depression, with a brief respite during WW II, and then, even when many railways invested in wonderful new streamliners and domeliners post war....passenger's deserted them to the new subsidized superhighways and airways.
> 
> As was mentioned, the removal of first class mail from the railroads in the late sixties was the final nail in the coffin, and the railways had no choice but to attempt to exit the passenger business, hence the creation of Amtrak.


Of course train travel is less popular today than it was back before Amtrak. Of course there's way better highways, cheaper gas, more affordable airlines and more competition today. And of course trains are more popular among short distances than over long ones. But there are still 15 LD trains in the country but Pennsylvania outside of PHL, PGH, Erie, and Connelsville (wherever that is?) isn't good enough for one. Ohio has lousy service. Texas has lousy service. Florida only has trains going north (try even getting to ATL or NOL from Florida). But there's plenty of other smaller states have much better LD service than some big states. And don't blame it on their states don't spend money, most of the tiny states don't spend any money either. Pennsylvania doesn't have an LD route because LD travel is dead. They don't because Congress thinks other states are more important and worthy of federally funded LD service.


----------



## railbuck

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Of course train travel is less popular today than it was back before Amtrak. Of course there's way better highways, cheaper gas, more affordable airlines and more competition today. And of course trains are more popular among short distances than over long ones. But there are still 15 LD trains in the country but Pennsylvania outside of PHL, PGH, Erie, and Connelsville (wherever that is?) isn't good enough for one. Ohio has lousy service. Texas has lousy service. Florida only has trains going north (try even getting to ATL or NOL from Florida). But there's plenty of other smaller states have much better LD service than some big states. And don't blame it on their states don't spend money, most of the tiny states don't spend any money either. Pennsylvania doesn't have an LD route because LD travel is dead. They don't because Congress thinks other states are more important and worthy of federally funded LD service.


Almost half of those LD trains have stops in PA, a non-LD train traverses the entire width of the state with connections to LD trains on both ends, there are 20 corridor trains per day serving the state, and over 70 additional corridor trains per day stop in PA. Seems to me Congress and Amtrak think PA is pretty important. Looking specifically at LD trains, only two states (IL and VA) clearly have more service than PA, and most of the other 47 have substantially less.

What were you complaining about?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Philly wants to have his cake and eat it too!(Cardinal, bad bird! Go away!)


----------



## jis

Actually PA is served by every LD train that serves Virginia and two additional ones. PA and NY are the only states that are served by all of the single level LD trains that are operated by Amtrak. There is no other state that has this distinction. PA in addition has one Superliner LD train which NY does not.

He is just ticked off that he can't ride the Broadway Limited any more. The rest is just mucho hot air.


----------



## railbuck

railbuck said:


> Looking specifically at LD trains, only two states (IL and VA) clearly have more service than PA, and most of the other 47 have substantially less.





jis said:


> Actually PA is served by every LD train that serves Virginia and two additional ones.


Auto Train would be the exception to that statement. The number of stops in VA, though, offsets the slight advantage PA has in the number of LD trains.



jis said:


> He is just ticked off that he can't ride the Broadway Limited any more. The rest is just mucho hot air.


Yeah, I'd like to see the Broadway come back, too, but there does seem to be quite an obsession.


----------



## jis

railbuck said:


> railbuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking specifically at LD trains, only two states (IL and VA) clearly have more service than PA, and most of the other 47 have substantially less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually PA is served by every LD train that serves Virginia and two additional ones.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Auto Train would be the exception to that statement. The number of stops in VA, though, offsets the slight advantage PA has in the number of LD trains.
Click to expand...

Yeah I did think about that for a moment but decided it is just a special case which does not really give any special advantage to VA since a more than significant part of its riders drive to it from north of VA anyway.. But point taken.



> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> He is just ticked off that he can't ride the Broadway Limited any more. The rest is just mucho hot air.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'd like to see the Broadway come back, too, but there does seem to be quite an obsession.
Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see it come back too. And at least I have put in a little bit of effort where it matters, about the through cars from the Pennsy to the Cap than sitting and moaning obsessively and endlessly about it here.


----------



## Seaboard92

Honestly I don't like the argument that would you rather have more trains that are crappy and serve more routes. We are lucky things have stabilized and things have gotten better. Had Amtrak not come when it did I would be willing to bet ridership would be lower today then where it is. And I'm willing to bet that if the service level the Penn Central, Southern Pacific, and several other fallen flags had continued we might not even have long distance trains at all. If your service is crappy and one step above squatter you won't have return business. No return business your ridership would completely collapse. You might get a new passenger once in awhile but they wouldn't return. So we would lose all around.


----------



## MARC Rider

Seaboard92 said:


> If you study the Penn Central you will actually find out today's trains are better then what we had back then. Back then hvac worked fifty percent of the time as well as the lights. Along with other issues. Including water between the double panes of glass creating a defacto aquarium. So in ways we've come far and lost a lot


I rode the NYP -WAS NEC quite a bit during the Penn Central years, and they must have saved all the working cars for the NEC, as I don't remember the kinds of defective cars described here. Every once in awhile you'd get a non AC car from the 1920s (not much older in relative terms to today's Amfleets), and periodically trains would grind to a halt somewhere in Maryland with no explanation from the crew. Of course, trains back then did not have PA systems.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> Actually PA is served by every LD train that serves Virginia and two additional ones. PA and NY are the only states that are served by all of the single level LD trains that are operated by Amtrak. There is no other state that has this distinction. PA in addition has one Superliner LD train which NY does not.
> 
> He is just ticked off that he can't ride the Broadway Limited any more. The rest is just mucho hot air.


The LSL serves Erie. Good if you live in Erie, not good if you live in Philly (OK you can take an NEC to NYP) or Pittsburgh. By contrast, I doubt people in Pittsburgh or Erie consider the Silver trains their trains just because they pass through Philly. And the state capitol or Lancaster (the Amish are huge LD train customers, I saw quite a few on the CZ) can't go anywhere long distance without a transfer and the Pennsylvanian-CL connection sucks. This isn't even counting Wilkes Barre-Scranton or Allentown-Bethlehem who have no trains at all.

In reality, three of the four corners are served. Philly has the Florida trains and the Crescent (and that other one doesn't count, less than 10,000/yr take that train out of Philly), Pittsburgh has the Capitol (eastbound times suck), and Erie has the LSL. Pennsylvania might have all of the trains but no one city/region has "all of them". You can argue Philly has more LD available but to anyone heading west, Chicago is more valuable than Florida. New Orleans is a decent destination but the train is worthless as a transfer point west (unless you want to stay overnight). If there was a same day connection between the Crescent and Sunset, NOL would be more valuable. With the CL, Pittsburgh is in decent shape because you can transfer in Washington using the CL (or Philly using the Pennsylvanian) to the SM/Crescent.

Amtrak proposed in the 2011 PRIIA through cars between the Capitol Limited and the Silver Star (https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/570/756/2011%20PRIIA%20210%20Report%2009-26-11_final.pdf). That would mean the Star would originate in WAS and not NYP but you'd still have the SM to Florida. I would trade the SS for a BL (in the proposal, the Palmetto would be expanded to Florida to replace the Star so you'd still have two NEC-Florida trains) and then both PHL and PGH would have "good" direct trains to both Chicago and Florida (and Harrisburg/Lancaster would at least have a train to Chicago). Since you can then use Superliners on the WAS-Florida portion of the SS (4 sets CHI-Florida, only one more than the current CL) you can take three of the SS Viewliner sets and use them on a new BL, the other to extend the Palmetto, and best yet, you can keep the Cardinal!

Another PA-friendly idea: CHI-PHL via CLE/PGH/HAR, then south from PHL to Florida. That would reroute the SS (or Fla extended Palmetto) from PHLto CHI instead of PHL to NYP. So HAR has a train to CHI and to Florida. This also gives Wilmington and BAL a faster train to CHI.


----------



## Anderson

I'm trying to remember the configuration of 30th Street Station...aren't trains coming in from Harrisburg already pointed towards Washington due to how the tracks come in? If so (and I think this is the case) then you've probably got a case to split the Star at Philadelphia (cutting NYP from it comes off as problematic; New York, Newark, and Trenton combine for about 75k riders/year and NYP-RVR is the #3 ridership/#1 revenue pair for the train and that pair _will_ get clobbered by cutting through service). I'm not sure how something like this would impact runtime, but per the timetables it seems to add 1:30 or so.

Ok, let's say we want to run a CHI-PGH-PHL-WAS-MIA train. I do think an NYP section is needed "both ways"...but there's already a 30-minute pad in the schedule of the Pennsylvanian at 30th Street Station either way. My thinking is that eastbound/southbound you'd need to have the train come into PHL, pull off the NYP-bound cars and add cars from NYP, and then carry on. The cars inbound from NYP really shouldn't end up late much. I'm not sure what the effective time requirement would be to cut one set of cars and add in a replacement set. Worth considering: I forget what the inspection rules are, but IIRC the LD trains have been constrained to 110 MPH due to Heritage equipment...so you could avoid having to swap locomotives on the "main" train (which would give you some time savings at WAS). Northbound/westbound you'd remove the NYP-bound cars and add NYP-originating cars as well. The NYP cars are going to presumably be "no local traffic" cars north of PHL, but I suspect you'd be able to allow to/from traffic elsewhere on the Corridor (presumably with a "warning note" that the train in question is a long-distance train and may not have the spectacular timekeeping of a regular Regional). I'm thinking that the NYP sections would probably be three coaches, a sleeper, and maybe a bag-dorm and/or a cafe/BC. Another other option would be to do one move (CHI-NYP) at PHL and the other move (MIA-NYP) at WAS.

FWIW, even with the "long way around" routing this train would arguably be about the same total travel time as a Silver-Cap connection in DC owing to required connection times (and the clunkiness of the connection). One thing I _will _say is that this train would _require_ a dining car: Pure runtime CHI-PHL is probably 17:00 (I'm basing this on the Cap-Pennsylvanian times sans the hold-over at PGH) and PHL-ORL is 20:00-21:30 (Meteor vs Star) while PHL-MIA is 25:40-29:30. Doing a one-night trip with no diner is one thing; doing a two-nighter is probably stretching it a bit (though the adjusted Palmetto would probably end up being the "B-train" on the Florida route).

The main "trick" seems to be fiddling with the schedule so that you still have decent times in RGH and NYP _and _don't end up in Philly at rush hour.

One thought that came to mind with this: Rather than mucking about with the Star, what if the Palmetto were used instead? Ignoring the fact that, at present, the Palmetto is basically a "Regional that happens to go to Savannah instead of Hampton Roads" in terms of ridership profile, this does seem like a workable solution (and indeed there's already some equipment shuffling in DC). I'll work up a timetable on this...


----------



## Anderson

| N--W | S--E |
MIA | 1730 | 1200 |
ORL | 2245 | 0645 |
ORL | 2300 | 0630 |
JAX | 0420 | 0100 |
JAX | 0430 | 0045 |
SAV | 0745 | 2130 |
SAV | 0800 | 2120 |
RVR | 1650 | 1230 |
RVR | 1700 | 1220 |
WAS | 1910 | 1010 |
WAS | 1930 | 0950 |
PHL | 2120 | 0800 |
PHL | 2130 | 0740 |
HAR | 2330 | 0550 |
HAR | 2340 | 0540 |
PGH | 0520 | 0010 |
PGH | 0530 | 0000 |
CHI | 1500 | 1430 |
-------------------
North/West Connection
PHL | 2140 | 2120 |
NYP | 2310 | 1950 |
-------------------
South/East Connection
NYP | 0820 | 0610 |
PHL | 0950 | 0740 |

CHI time is listed as Eastern for my sanity; subtract one hour for local time.

So, the times for Pittsburgh suck...but I can't really make Pittsburgh good and keep Chicago early enough to reliably make the latter batch of regional trains there. If the train were to be routed via Cleveland/Toledo, you'd also get those cities a daytime train in the process. I've also got trouble not putting PGH in the middle of the night without either throwing a large pad in somewhere OR putting ORL in the middle of the night, and frankly The Mouse is enough of a traffic generator to overrule PGH. The solution there is, painful though it might be, to push the EB Cap a bit later (so PGH would have an overnight-ish train in each direction and a daylight-ish train in each direction). I'd actually consider accepting worse times for PGH for improvements elsewhere.

The equipment turns here are lousy, but given the length of the run I don't think I'd want to risk much less than a twelve-hour turn...and doing that isn't compatible with sane times in Orlando since you've got just over five hours MIA-ORL.

The NYP-PHL times aren't great...but slightly worse times are hiving off 125k/yr out of NYP on the present Palmetto so I think that's acceptable. I'm still torn on where to do the equipment shuffling in such a plan, too.

I'm trying to guess at what overall ridership would be for this "complex"...I'm thinking probably around 500k: 300k for your "Palmetto-equivalent" and another 200k or so for your "Broadway-equivalent". You'd "lose" some riders due to the one-seat ride removing a bit of double-counting but you'd gain a batch of them back because of the presence of that single-seat ride. Also, this shouldn't hurt the Cap _too _much: CLE and TOL are limited in their impact because of lousy times, and this won't siphon off pax connecting to the West.

One other possibility: Detroit? You won't lose an equipment set in Chicago (it's got close to a 24-hour layover) but I'm not sure how much you'd add at Detroit versus losing folks at Cleveland/Toledo due to the longer routing. To be fair, even if that connection is via a bus at least it's not a middle-of-the-night bus.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Anderson said:


> One thought that came to mind with this: Rather than mucking about with the Star, what if the Palmetto were used instead? Ignoring the fact that, at present, the Palmetto is basically a "Regional that happens to go to Savannah instead of Hampton Roads" in terms of ridership profile, this does seem like a workable solution (and indeed there's already some equipment shuffling in DC). I'll work up a timetable on this...


Assuming the Palmetto would be extended to Florida, not a problem. As long as there are two NYP-Florida trains and one CHI-Florida train.

If this plan goes through there will be two Chicago-Pittsburgh trains. Assuming the current CL schedule and Anderson's proposed schedule, one western train would be near midnight and one would be 5:30am while eastbound one would be near midnight and one around 5:30am. For leaving PGH, midnight is definitely better than 5:30am. For arriving, you either have to leave the station after midnight or before 6am so pick your poison. But at least you have choices. Ideally you'd push the eastbound CL earlier and westbound CL later to improve those PGH times (with a Chicago-Florida train there is less of a need to worry about the connection at WAS). Also the Chicago-Florida train would definitely serve Ohio outside the graveyard shift so that's a definite plus.


----------



## jis

Currently the most likely routing of a Chicago Florida train is via NOL.


----------



## Seaboard92

And the best possible routing is really via Nashville and Atlanta.

The best thing we can hope for is to hold the current network as it is. The Palmetto is one of three profitable trains last I checked I really wouldn't want to mess with it. And the Silver Star is my home train so I'm prepared to fight to keep that one safe.

The north south routes are generally very strong routes. Granted there is a study out there to reroute the Crescent and the Silver Star. With the crescent getting rerouted from ALX to GRO via RGH and the Silver Star getting rerouted ALX to CLB via CLT, CVS. Personally I'm against that as Camden, Hamlet, and Southern Pines would all lose service with that reroute.

The best solution to help all trains is to order new equipment preferably not from CAF as I'll be dead before those arrive and I'm young.

With enough equipment you could get the precious Broadway Limited back. Not what I would do first with new equipment as the unique market is HAR, PHL to CHI. And most people in the effected cities have a three hour one connection ride to a Chicago train. The best way to study if the ridership would even be there to support said train would be to get the thru cars on the Capitol Limited and see if they would justify an individual train.

The people who really have it bad are people from FL, GA, TN who want to go to Chicago. Florida and Georgia have to go two nights with a nine hour connections in DC. While Tennessee gets overlooked. So I would allocate service here first. It would be hard to get it on a one night out time carding and have connections at Chicago.

The actual private passenger trains all ran south out of CHI in the morning time slot running daytime to the south giving Nashville daylight service both ways. And nighttime from Atlanta or Birmingham to JAX and then running in the silver Meteor Florida time slot.

That's where I would invest maybe the Dixie Flyer route south of Nashville I'm open to other routes north of Nashville.


----------



## Anderson

I had heard of the idea to reroute the Star via RGH-CLT-CLB but not one to reroute it via CVS. This isn't to say that doing so doesn't make sense from some perspective, but I hadn't heard of that. To be fair, I would probably be inclined to suggest that looking at two sections which either merge or operate in some concert would be a serious option to consider (probably for the Crescent).


----------



## railiner

Seaboard92 said:


> The people who really have it bad are people from FL, GA, TN who want to go to Chicago. Florida and Georgia have to go two nights with a nine hour connections in DC. While Tennessee gets overlooked. So I would allocate service here first. It would be hard to get it on a one night out time carding and have connections at Chicago.


Tennessee?

Train 58&59...overnite, every night. Between Memphis and Chicago.


----------



## Seaboard92

railiner said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The people who really have it bad are people from FL, GA, TN who want to go to Chicago. Florida and Georgia have to go two nights with a nine hour connections in DC. While Tennessee gets overlooked. So I would allocate service here first. It would be hard to get it on a one night out time carding and have connections at Chicago.
> 
> 
> 
> Tennessee?Train 58&59...overnite, every night. Between Memphis and Chicago.
Click to expand...

I'm going with the eastern and central Tennessee. The two areas Nashville and Memphis could all be considered two different states just in how they are culturally. Nashville currently has a good commuter train system so they already have some experience with trains. Plus they are running an article every so often about the lack of Amtrak. That's a city that gets a right to gripe about no service.


----------



## Anderson

Nashville's main problem is geographic isolation. Also, while I know that NOL is the most likely choice for a through train...well, what can I say? Yesterday was a frustrating day and I needed the distraction of drawing up a timetable:

| 30 | 42 | 89 | 91 | 97 | |
Dp CHI | 1940 | ---- | 1430 | ---- | | |
Ar TOL | 2339 | ---- | 1830 | ---- | | |
Dp TOL | 2349 | ---- | 1840 | ---- | | |
Ar CLE | 0145 | ---- | 2030 | ---- | | |
Dp CLE | 0154 | ---- | 2040 | ---- | | |
Ar PGH | 0505 | ---- | 0000 | ---- | | |
Dp PGH | 0520 | 0730 | 0010 | ---- | | |
Ar HAR | 42-> | 1255 | 0540 | ---- | | |
Dp HAR | ---- | 1305 | 0550 | ---- | | |
Dp NYP | ---- | ---- | 0610*| 1102 | 0315 | |
Ar PHL | ---- | 1455 | 0740 | 1230 | 1700 | |
Dp PHL | ---- | 1525 | 0800 | 1235 | 1705 | |
Ar NYP | ---- | 1650 | 0950*| ---- | ---- | |
Ar WAS | 1305 | ---- | 0950 | 1435 | 1900 | |
Dp WAS | ---- | ---- | 1010 | 1505 | 1925 | |
Ar RVR | ---- | ---- | 1220 | 1707 | 2134 | |
Dp RVR | ---- | ---- | 1230 | 1717 | 2144 | |
Ar SAV | ---- | ---- | 2120 | 0413 | 0634 | |
Dp SAV | ---- | ---- | 2130 | 0418 | 0640 | |
Ar JAX | ---- | ---- | 0045 | 0639 | 0909 | |
Dp JAX | ---- | ---- | 0100 | 0659 | 0934 | |
Ar ORL | ---- | ---- | 0630 | 1006 | 1249 | |
Dp ORL | ---- | ---- | 0645 | 1020 | 1304 | |
Ar MIA | ---- | ---- | 1200 | 1758 | 1839 | |
*Connecting Section/Through Cars

Northeast Corridor Connections to 89
| 67 | *89 | 64 | | |
| WAS | PHL | ->67 | | |
Dp ALB | ---- | ---- | 1915 | | |
Dp BOS | 2130 | ---- | ---- | | |
Ar NYP | 0230 | ---- | 2150 | | |
Dp NYP | 0325 | 0610 | ---- | | |
Ar PHL | 0452 | 0740 | ---- | | |
Dp PHL | 0500 | ---- | ---- | | |
Ar WAS | 0700 | ---- | ---- | | |

Notheast Corridor Connections from 89
| *89 | 172 | 233 | 283 | |
Dp PHL | 0820 | 0920 | ---- | ---- | |
Ar NYP | 0950 | 1044 | ---- | ---- | |
Dp NYP | ---> | 1100 | 1120 | 1320 | |
Ar BOS | ---- | 1515 | ---- | ---- | |
Ar ALB | ---- | ---- | 1350 | 1545 | |
Note that if there's no *, there's not a through car service. The two *89 services are the only ones with explicit through-car service, though 66/67 would be a candidate for such as well (and indeed could arguably take the place of SB *89 above, and NB *90 if I come up with that timetable).

Based on the above, I think I could see a decent case to push the EB Capitol Limited forward by an hour. More than that would jeopardize a useful 30-42 connection (which is necessary since this version of 89 wouldn't connect with the Western LD trains in Chicago).

There might be some extra time in there...when I checked with a 1994 timetable, the JAX/ORL times for 89 were basically ripped from there but WAS/RVR were earlier in mine (though I think I lined it up with the current timetable). Could someone check my math?


----------



## dogbert617

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Here's a question. If you can go back to the Amtrak route system any year since 1971 (pre-Amtrak is not an option), which would you choose?
> 
> As I said before, the first Amtrak didn't serve Cleveland or Dallas so I wouldn't want that.
> 
> The obvious answer would be before the 1979 cuts while the Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star were still running. Also, the Broadway Limited had the through cars to WAS. Sure, the CL is better for CHI-WAS but the BL was better for BAL. Also, the Cardinal actually served CIN at good hours instead of the current graveyard shift time.
> 
> However, there was no train service to Las Vegas (Desert Wind, which also connected DEN/SLC with LAX), no train service from Detroit-Toledo, and no train service on the SL east of NOL (that begun in 1993). I'm impartial to the Texas Eagle split to serve Houston via College Station (Southern Pacific?) which wasn't served by the Lone Star (
> 
> I'm torn between these two eras (before 1979 but after the LSL started and from the beginning of the coast to coast SL to the BL getting axed). So I would say 1978 or 1994. What do you think?


Seems a sweet spot for a good level of Amtrak LD routes throughout the country, was in the mid-90s. The big exceptions I can think of where service is better today vs. the mid-90s(and I might be forgetting 1 or 2 additions where service is better today), were that there was no Maine(Downeaster) or Oklahoma(Heartland Flyer) corridor service. It stinks that there no longer is a Dallas-Houston spur off of what's today the Texas Eagle, though I know there is a throughway bus service from Longview to Houston(and Galveston, upon request based on what I've read about that bus), Sunset Limited east of New Orleans, and the Pioneer(southern Wyoming-Salt Lake City-Boise/southern Idaho-northeast and northern Oregon) and Desert Wind(Salt Lake City-Las Vegas-LA) no longer operating are other losses from the mid-90s, that I wish still existed today. Granted to a limited extent for those in rural northern Oregon(between Hood River to Hinkle-Hermiston, though I bet this isn't utilized much for ex-Pioneer passengers from La Grande, OR to east of there), certain passengers can do a short drive across the Columbia River to southern Washington across the river and take the Portland-Spokane Empire Builder branch for long distance train service. I am aware there's been occasional talk about possibly extending the City of New Orleans, east from NO on the former New Orleans to Jacksonville Sunset Limited route. Not sure if the talk about such a new service would only go to Jacksonville, or also service cities further south of JAX as a 3rd train on top of the 2 Silver trains?

And it's funny you mentioned Detroit-Toledo, since Michigan Department of Transportation(which funds all the regional Amtrak Michigan trains) has expressed interest in wanting some sort of Amtrak service to go from MI to/from New York City(and state) once again. One idea to achieve this goal, would be to reroute the Lake Shore Limited on the current Wolverine route, then have it turn off the Chicago-Pontiac Amtrak Wolverine route I believe between Dearborn and Detroit. And the Dearborn station was entirely renovated, only a few years ago.

A few additional things I was interested in wondering. When was the Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile Amtrak train eliminated? And was that service in AL a regional train(i.e. Heartland Flyer), or a spur where cars were added/removed at a certain point(i.e. Sunset Limited adding/removing through cars from/to the Texas Eagle at San Antonio, Empire Builder adding/removing through cars at Spokane, and how Amtrak used to add/remove CA Zephyr through cars to/from the Desert Wind in Salt Lake City before that was eliminated). Also I noticed on this 1994 eastern Amtrak system map that Waldo-Ocala-Wildwood used to have Amtrak train service, and today I know there's only throughway bus service that took over for former Amtrak service. Was Amtrak service to Ocala and etc. only eliminated because of track deteriorating condition, or for another reason like Amtrak cost cutting? It'd be sad if the Ocala, FL Amtrak route did share the fate of say like the Pioneer or Desert Wind, but I guess back in the 90s there was a lot of pressure on Amtrak to eliminate routes with low ridership.

Also, I'm impressed by this Steamliner train line map I just found, thanks to looking at a different page(I browsed on my own) of a url link someone posted in this thread. Yep a lot of places might've been served by dingy trains(as one other poster called it, lol), but it's sad to think that a lot of those places no longer served by trains(i.e. Boise, ID, Billings, MT, Knoxville, TN) are limited to intercity bus service, and limited airline flight service that mainly goes to cities that are considered hub airports(i.e. Salt Lake City, Atlanta, Dallas, etc). Anyway prepare to be very impressed looking at this national Steamliner map, especially if you're younger(like me) and this was before your time. And I had one minor question in regards to the Steamliner map I posted below, what led Amtrak to route the Coast Starlight through Klamath Falls, OR instead of Medford, OR? Which on this linked map, the Cascade Steamliner train served. Anyway:

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/extras/streamliners_across_america.pdf


----------



## railiner

There were several more streamlined routes before Amtrak that were not depicted on that map. If you really want to see something, try to buy an old Official Railway Guide from the mid- fifties, perhaps on eBay...

And for a complete guide of all Amtrak trains in the past, there is a link to the Museum of timetables on this site...


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

Much has been said (well by me) about the Three Rivers getting canceled and how much it sucked/sucks for PHL and the rest of PA east of PGH and NJ. But not as obvious if the fact that NYP lost one of its two daily trains to CHI. Is it surprising at all the LSL sells out so fast and fares are so high?

In addition, consider the "past vs. present" here:

April 2004:

TR: http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0071

LSL/CL (same page): http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0069

NYP to CHI: 41 - 12:15pm to 7:45am, 49 - 2:50pm-8:55am, WAS to CHI: 29 - 5:20pm-10:19am

CHI to NYP: 48 - 7:20pm to 3:25pm, 40 - 10:30pm-8:10pm, CHI to WAS: 30 - 5:35pm-12:24pm

Westbound there really wasn't as much difference as there is now but eastbound you could leave CHI earlier and get back to NYP before the evening rush hour which you can't do today (you also get back to most upstate NY destinations and BOS 2-3 hrs earlier).

It's interesting to me that the CL and LSL basically swapped arrival times into CHI and that the eastbound CL left CHI at 5:35pm which would be worse for CHI-WAS passengers coming from the west (I'm guessing you'd have to either take the LSL and transfer in NYP to WAS or the TR and transfer in PHL to WAS) but better for passengers connecting in WAS for the SS/SM. That meant the CL times in PGH were even worse than they are now but the TR was still running to CHI so only those going to WAS had to deal with them.

PGH to CHI: 41 - 10:30pm-7:45am, 29 - 1:22am-10:19am

CHI to PGH: 30 - 5:35pm-4:21am, 40 - 10:30pm-9:30am

On the other hand, the eastbound CL got back to TOL/CLE an hour earlier (10:39pm into TOL, 12:59am into CLE). Then again, the late departure of the LSL today allows the train to get to CLE closer to daylight than back then. What's better for arriving into CLE, 12:59am or the current LSL time (5:35am)?

So for NYP's purpose, the TR allowed you to arrive into CHI two hours earlier than today, leave CHI two hours earlier than today, and gave you one extra hour leeway coming back from the west in case you are delayed (you'd take the TR instead of the LSL). I'm not sure that is much of a loss westbound but I think getting back to NYP earlier (and having the backup TR if you missed the LSL) was a benefit for New York passengers coming from Chicago. As for upstate NY/BOS, you arrived back home from CHI earlier than you did now but you were more likely to miss your connection from the west so I don't know whether that's good or bad.

Also back in 2004 they had a 3-C Thruway connecting in CLE to both the LSL and CL. http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0070 which doesn't exist today (although going from Columbus-CLE-CHI or Columbus-CLE-WAS seems backwards, Columbus-CLE-NYP or Columbus-CLE-BOS would be useful).

In 2004-05, NYP not only lost a daily to CHI but also a daily to Florida. I'll discuss Florida in a separate post.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I believe the strongest end point to end point LD markets are between the NEC and CHI and the NEC and Florida. In addition to the NEC losing a daily to CHI back in 2004 they also lost a daily to Florida when the Palmetto was truncated in SAV. Losing the TR took away some schedule flexibility in travel between NYP and CHI but a lot more schedule flexibility between NYP and Florida.

From April 2004:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0073

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0074

Southbound:

89: NYP 7:15am, PHL 9:40am, WAS 12:20pm, JAX 1:50am, TPA 6:50am, MIA 12:20pm

91: NYP 11:30am, PHL 1:35pm, WAS 4:35pm, JAX 8:15am, ORL 11:32am, MIA 5:20pm

97: NYP 7:10pm, PHL 8:41pm, WAS 10:59pm, JAX 12:30pm, ORL 3:29pm, MIA 9:35pm

Northbound:

98: MIA 7:00am, ORL 12:22pm, JAX 3:46pm, WAS 5:45am, PHL 8:25am, NYP 10:12am

92: MIA 10:35am, ORL 3:56pm, JAX 7:13pm, WAS 11:04am, PHL 1:20pm. NYP 3:28pm

90: MIA 3:00pm, TPA 8:45pm, JAX 12:38am, WAS 2:45pm, PHL 5:10pm, NYP 7:31pm

To answer one of dogbert617's questions, the Palmetto served Waldo-Ocala-Wildwood in 2004 before they truncated it to SAV (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20040426&item=0076)

Back then there was no TPA-ORL service (the Palmetto was the TPA-MIA train) and the Palmetto didn't serve ORL so ORL still has the same two trains it does now (MIA/South Florida and JAX went from three to two).

I believe people at AU have said they would have liked a train from the NEC to south Florida to catch cruises. Back in 2004, that was the Palmetto, arriving in MIA slightly after noon and leaving MIA at 3pm as opposed to the later arrivals to and earlier departures from MIA in 2017. Also, you could have left NYP after the evening rush today which you can't today. The arrivals into MIA had a great variety where in 2017 the two trains arrive in MIA less than an hour apart. They also said the SM used to require 3 sets back then with the departure from NYP later.

It makes absolutely no sense for me to truncate the Palmetto in SAV. That's like truncating the LSL in ALB. I say you run it to Florida or get rid of it altogether. Back then the SM, SS, and Palmetto combined required 11 sets. Today, they require 10. So you've saved a grand one set and you now have to have turning facilities in Savannah which you didn't need before (and you could have gotten down to 10 sets by having the Palmetto go from TPA to ORL and terminate there (approx. 9am arrival into ORL and 6:30pm departure from ORL) so no extra sets and no new service facilities in Savannah would be required (you could still have rerouted the SS to serve TPA-MIA). You'd lose a trip to South Florida (the ideal cruise schedule train) but you'd add a train to ORL and if you rerouted the SS then two trains would serve TPA instead of one). On the other hand, you could keep the late departure out of the NEC to Florida which would help people from NYP/PHL/WAS. If they had to keep only two NYP-Florida trains, they could have just had the SS use the Palmetto schedule up to JAX and then travel its current route ORL-TPA-MIA so at least it still arrived into/left from south Florida in time for the cruises and you wouldn't have the SS and SM within an hour of each other northbound. I think most of us agree the early arrival into Florida and the later departure from the NEC were beneficial as opposed to two trains within an hour of each other.

So just like NEC-Chicago, losing a train not only takes a train away it also inconveniences the schedules of the trains that do remain. The two service cuts in 2004-2005 don't seem important to people outside of PHL/HAR/Lancaster but they hurt others more than you think.


----------



## railiner

Like I've said earlier....you were just born too late... 

Back in the pre-Amtrak era, you had trains between New York and Chicago, and most everywhere else that gave you almost round-the-clock choices, and on several different railroads.

That also meant that they did not have to hold trains for very late connections, but leave right on time...late train passenger's were easily accommodated on later trains, and there was an ample pool of extra coaches and sleeper's that could be added to those trains if necessary to accommodate them...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Now if we could just get rid of the Cardinal Amtrak would be Great Again!


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

I believe Amtrak has never had a train connecting ATL and Florida (the Floridian went through Alabama). The last train I am aware of between the cities was the Dixie Flagler. If I had to start from scratch and build a single rail line between the NEC and Florida I would run it via RGH, CLT, and ATL. It would be longer than going along the Atlantic Coast but you'd have a much larger potential audience. Was there ever a train from the NEC to Florida via ATL (maybe Seaboard Coast Line)? How about a train between CLT and Florida?


----------



## Seaboard92

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I believe Amtrak has never had a train connecting ATL and Florida (the Floridian went through Alabama). The last train I am aware of between the cities was the Dixie Flagler. If I had to start from scratch and build a single rail line between the NEC and Florida I would run it via RGH, CLT, and ATL. It would be longer than going along the Atlantic Coast but you'd have a much larger potential audience. Was there ever a train from the NEC to Florida via ATL (maybe Seaboard Coast Line)? How about a train between CLT and Florida?


Nothing by SAL/ACL ran from the NEC to FL via Atlanta. The SAL had a train NEC-ATL-Birmingham. If you consult your rail atlas you'll see that the SAL/ACL really didn't have any real routings possible for it.

Now the Southern (SOU) Railway might have. But I'm pretty sure their Florida service which was very limited went on other routes. I believe their only contribution NEC to FL ran via Columbia and what became the SAL.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

How about Atlanta to Tampa and/or Orlando directly, bypassing Savannah/Jacksonville (roughly I-75)?


----------



## jis

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> How about Atlanta to Tampa and/or Orlando directly, bypassing Savannah/Jacksonville (roughly I-75)?


No one cared about Orlando until Mickey Mouse set up residence there.


----------

