# New Rehabilitated Superliners unveiled



## DSS&A (Jun 16, 2021)

Amtrak unveiled its first rehabilitated Superliners at Chicago Union Station on June 15th.





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## Cal (Jun 17, 2021)

I wonder what the sleeper ones will look like.


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## west point (Jun 17, 2021)

is this why the superliner trains are so short ? Why oh why weren't' they refurbished in 2020 ?


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2021)

west point said:


> is this why the superliner trains are so short ? Why oh why weren't' they refurbished in 2020 ?


They didn't have much extra cash.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 17, 2021)

From the article:


> Now, the dated orange-and-brown color scheme many Superliner coaches sported is being replaced. They will have new seat cushions covered in a durable gray fabric that will still look new even after two years of service, Roger Harris, Amtrak’s chief marketing and revenue officer, told reporters at Union Station.



"Orange and brown color scheme?"

Here's a picture of a Superliner coach in service on June 9, 2021:




That doesn't look like "orange and brown" to me. Also, the "durable gray fabric" isn't fabric, but rather fake leather.


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## jis (Jun 17, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> "Orange and brown color scheme?"
> ...


That is not the refurbished version.


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## joelkfla (Jun 17, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> "Orange and brown color scheme?"
> ...


They said "many" had the orange & brown. That could be anywhere from 5% to 95%.


> Also, the "durable gray fabric" isn't fabric, but rather fake leather.


Ugh. Doesn't sound shorts friendly. And what happens after the 2 years during which it looks new; does it start cracking with sharp edges?


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## Steve4031 (Jun 17, 2021)

I’m curious to see what will be done to the sleepers. Not expecting anything new on my trip which starts a week from Sunday on the starlight. Then the zephyr on 7/2.

I believe those new seats are on horizon and amfleet cars. I rode in them on a trip to Stl. The seats were an improvement from the older seats imho.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 17, 2021)

jis said:


> That is not the refurbished version.


That's correct. The article said that the non-refurbished version was "orange and brown." But every non-refurbished Superliner I've been on over the past 20 years, at least, including the one I rode last week, has had blue fabric upholstery.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 17, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Ugh. Doesn't sound shorts friendly. And what happens after the 2 years during which it looks new; does it start cracking with sharp edges?


The refreshed Amfleet 1s for the Northeast Regional have been in service over 2 years, and they're still in pretty good shape. I'm not a real fan of the feel of the "leather" coverings, but I do think that the seats have better cushioning than the previous versions. I once rode overnight in an Amfleet 2 with the blue fabric, and after a while it felt like I was sitting on concrete. And I appreciate the fresh carpeting on all the cars and new curtains on the Amfleet 2 coaches and Amfleet 1 business class cars.


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## jis (Jun 17, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> That's correct. The article said that the non-refurbished version was "orange and brown." But every non-refurbished Superliner I've been on over the past 20 years, at least, including the one I rode last week, has had blue fabric upholstery.


Yeah they are confused, or have been stuck 40 years back or something


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> That's correct. The article said that the non-refurbished version was "orange and brown." But every non-refurbished Superliner I've been on over the past 20 years, at least, including the one I rode last week, has had blue fabric upholstery.


I too, have never seen a superliner coach without the blue fabric.


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## OBS (Jun 17, 2021)

jis said:


> Yeah they are confused, or have been stuck 40 years back or something


At least they didn't refer to the purple (1970's) pattern.....


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## Dakota 400 (Jun 17, 2021)

Very encouraging report and pictures, particularly the dining car. Real cloth napkins; flowers; real dinnerware and flatware; an improved menu: Christmas is coming early this year!


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## Trogdor (Jun 17, 2021)

IIRC, in the early 2000s the Superliner I coaches had something of an orange-and-brown seat color scheme (I actually can’t remember what they looked like), and Superliners IIs had something of a pinkish-beige color scheme. At some point, maybe late 2000s, they standardized all coaches throughout the fleet (Superliner, Amfleet, Horizon) on the blue colors that were in use until now.


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## Mailliw (Jun 17, 2021)

How long will this be set up at Union Station? I'll be in Chicago next month.


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## MikefromCrete (Jun 17, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> How long will this be set up at Union Station? I'll be in Chicago next month.



I think it was just a press opportunity. The loco and cars are probably already gone back into service.


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## Dustyroad (Jun 17, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> They said "many" had the orange & brown. That could be anywhere from 5% to 95%.
> 
> Ugh. Doesn't sound shorts friendly. And what happens after the 2 years during which it looks new; does it start cracking with sharp edges?


I'm a sweater. Those seats don't look comfortable to me. They could have left the all fabric seat in my opinion as above poster pointed out. I hope they are not in the sleepers.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 17, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> "Orange and brown color scheme?"
> ...



Yeah orange and brown is long gone! I remember it as a kid.

I prefer cloth vs. fake leather for long distance riding.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> I'm a sweater. Those seats don't look comfortable to me. They could have left the all fabric seat in my opinion as above poster pointed out. I hope they are not in the sleepers.











Amtrak Customer Experience Investments Display - Amtrak Media







media.amtrak.com





They are. 

I think the Superliners look a bit weird now, with brand new carpeting and seats and then everything else looking just as old. Couldn't they have at least put in the new tray tables in the rooms? They put them in the accessible coach seats...


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## VAtrainfan (Jun 17, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> I'm a sweater. Those seats don't look comfortable to me. They could have left the all fabric seat in my opinion as above poster pointed out. I hope they are not in the sleepers.


Sweater here too. The updated Northeast Regional Amfleet I seats are cosmetically a little different but essentially the same as the new Superliner seats. I found the new seats on those trains rather comfortable. YMMV of course but I had no issues with the new seats.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 17, 2021)

MikefromCrete said:


> I think it was just a press opportunity. The loco and cars are probably already gone back into service.


A refurbished coach is on today’s #5


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## jis (Jun 17, 2021)

As for how much change is possible in these refreshes, remember, one of the requirements of the Amfleet refresh was that it had to be achievable at many terminal station which had any maintenance facility at all, and the cars did not have to be sent to Bear or Wilmington for the refresh. I suppose the Superliner refreshes are also being done under similar constraints.


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## Palmland (Jun 17, 2021)

Good for Amtrak for switching to the pseudo leather. It’s so much easier to keep clean which is so important in our COVID world not too much passengers that are less than fastidious. We’re shopping for a new couch that has to be leather thanks to our beloved dog that sits where she pleases. But for comfort, yes I prefer the upholstered fabric seat coverings.


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## lrh442 (Jun 17, 2021)

jis said:


> As for how much change is possible in these refreshes, remember, one of the requirements of the Amfleet refresh was that it had to be achievable at many terminal station which had any maintenance facility at all, and the cars did not have to be sent to Bear or Wilmington for the refresh. I suppose the Superliner refreshes are also being done under similar constraints.


Fancy math shows that $28 million for 450 cars works out to $62K per car. I'm surprised they are able to do even this modest facelift for that little.


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## jis (Jun 17, 2021)

lrh442 said:


> Fancy math shows that $28 million for 450 cars works out to $62K per car. I'm surprised they are able to do even this modest facelift for that little.


The fact that they have only 406 or so active cars to refresh gives them a few pennies more per car I suppose.


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## PVD (Jun 17, 2021)

They did the Amfleet cars for a surprisingly low outlay, also. A few simple refreshes make a big difference. Curtains, carpets, lighting, and seat/seat cushions make the cars seem much newer than we know they really are....


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## Dustyroad (Jun 17, 2021)

Cal said:


> Amtrak Customer Experience Investments Display - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think someone who hasn't taken a LD ride out west has designed these seats. I will be using the blanket in the room to cover the seat as best as I can.


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## PVD (Jun 17, 2021)

I would imagine they are not changing the seats, rather, they would keep the frames and change the cushions and covers. That way the cars get turned around pretty quickly, and can be done in a regular maintenance facility, they don't all have to go to a place like Bear or Beech Grove.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2021)

PVD said:


> I would imagine they are not changing the seats, rather, they would keep the frames and change the cushions and covers. That way the cars get turned around pretty quickly, and can be done in a regular maintenance facility, they don't all have to go to a place like Bear or Beech Grove.


I keep hearing "Bear", where is that?


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## cocojacoby (Jun 17, 2021)

PVD said:


> They did the Amfleet cars for a surprisingly low outlay, also. A few simple refreshes make a big difference. Curtains, carpets, lighting, and seat/seat cushions make the cars seem much newer than we know they really are....



That was Anderson. He said people never know the age of an airplane because they refresh them like this.


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## Trogdor (Jun 17, 2021)

Cal said:


> I keep hearing "Bear", where is that?


Delaware.


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## daybeers (Jun 17, 2021)

Cal said:


> I keep hearing "Bear", where is that?


The Bear Heavy Maintenance Facility is in Bear, DE near Wilmington.



Cal said:


> Amtrak Customer Experience Investments Display - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> 
> ...


New tray tables in the rooms would be nice  but I think the new seats look nice! I don't know how much I like the color scheme with the rest of the dining car, but the SSL seats and room seats look especially nice.

Amtrak must have gotten some new people in their Media department because those photos are good. They have also posted several short ad videos on their YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXXk9wIQ7Em7VB9wsxkvbK3JmfzRAv_gW


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## Dustyroad (Jun 17, 2021)

PVD said:


> I would imagine they are not changing the seats, rather, they would keep the frames and change the cushions and covers. That way the cars get turned around pretty quickly, and can be done in a regular maintenance facility, they don't all have to go to a place like Bear or Beech Grove.





PVD said:


> I would imagine they are not changing the seats, rather, they would keep the frames and change the cushions and covers. That way the cars get turned around pretty quickly, and can be done in a regular maintenance facility, they don't all have to go to a place like Bear or Beech Grove.


Yes, I'm sure it won't take to long to do a car. I just wish they would keep the cloth fabric. It will be like anything new. It will take time to get used to the new changes .


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## daybeers (Jun 17, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> Yes, I'm sure it won't take to long to do a car. I just wish they would keep the cloth fabric. It will be like anything new. It will take time to get used to the new changes .


I wonder if they will partner with People for Urban Progress in Indianapolis to upcycle the fabric like they did with the Acela refresh, though those were leather. They didn't do the same for the Amfleet refresh.


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## PVD (Jun 17, 2021)

I had my concerns about the new material when the AM-1 refresh first rolled out, but they are much easier to keep clean, since it is pretty obvious when they aren't. Not so with the cloth. I was pleasantly surprised.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 17, 2021)

Cal said:


> I keep hearing "Bear", where is that?


About 10 mins from me.


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## joelkfla (Jun 17, 2021)

Cal said:


> Amtrak Customer Experience Investments Display - Amtrak Media
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The roomette seats in particular look like they came out of a '60's classic auto. 

I hope those blue lines across the pillowcase are not raised piping that will leave corresponding indentations on the side of my face.


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## PaTrainFan (Jun 17, 2021)

An RPA email message from Jim Mathews included his take on the refresh. As probably not all (though most) here are members, I'll risk any legal violations and paste his comments here:

The coaches and sleeper cars have been spiffed-up, which is a big improvement for a fleet that is decades old. So what did I see in Chicago, and what can you expect to see on the rails?

The first updated coach cars go into service near the end of June. Updates will domino through all long-distance western routes over 3-years, including trains out of Chicago – California Zephyr, Empire Builder and Coast Starlight are included.
Bi-level Superliner coaches have had a nice refresh of the soft surfaces; nicer than what the Amfleet cars received. Aesthetically, the seats look better and are much more comfortable than the Amfleet seats. All carpets (including overhead) and curtains have also been replaced with new, better-quality materials.
In addition to greatly improved seat cushions, Superliner sleeping cars will have higher-quality sheets and new toiletries. Because the refresh is soft surfaces only, you will still need to pack your shim-and-duct-tape kit, but in my opinion, it’s a welcome and significant improvement, and long overdue.
The improvement in the Sightseer Lounge is somewhat less dramatic, but still welcome. The seats are firmer, but not overly so, and quite comfortable. On the table side of the lounge and in the dining cars, the improvement is a bit more subtle, but when you sit in the seat, it’s a huge improvement. The seating actually feels more spacious. The seats don’t “lean” at the edges. The seat back is a couple inches higher, which makes a surprising difference in comfort level. The tabletops will also be replaced (both in the lounges and in the diners) with ones that are tapered a bit at the ends to make it easier to get in and out. We’re told they’ll be very similar to the tables in the new Viewliner II diners.


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Bi-level Superliner coaches have had a nice refresh of the soft surfaces; nicer than what the Amfleet cars received. Aesthetically, the seats look better and are much more comfortable than the Amfleet seats. All carpets (including overhead) and curtains have also been replaced with new, better-quality materials.




Overhead carpets look exactly the same to me...


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## me_little_me (Jun 17, 2021)

Cal said:


> Overhead carpets look exactly the same to me...


Have you tried walking on them? Then, you'll notice the difference!


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## Cal (Jun 17, 2021)

Cal said:


> I think the Superliners look a bit weird now, with brand new carpeting and seats and then everything else looking just as old.


I also don't like how in the coaches, the walls and seats are all greys and blues and the overheads are tan. They look out of place. but again, just me being picky


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## Ziv (Jun 17, 2021)

I was at a party once where oil based paint was used on bare feet so we could help several smaller young ladies to "walk upside down" in order to leave green footprints on the ceiling of the house we had been graciously invited to visit. Oddly enough, it seemed like it was a good idea at the time and the people that rented the house still laugh about it. Well, they laugh about it when I am around. Not sure what they say about me behind my back, not that I would blame them.
But imagine walking into a house and seeing several sets of green footprints walking along the ceiling from the front porch to the back door...



me_little_me said:


> Have you tried walking on them? Then, you'll notice the difference!


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## west point (Jun 18, 2021)

New Orleans certainly can do the work as they keep spare Superliners and Amfleets


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## neroden (Jun 18, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> That was Anderson. He said people never know the age of an airplane because they refresh them like this.


Yeah, I can tell a 737-100 from a 737-400, but I'm looking at the wing when I do.


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## neroden (Jun 18, 2021)

I prefer the pseudoleather because I'm allergic to a lot of synthetic cloth (though not Amtrak's specific former material, which I think was all nylon) -- but I'm not allergic to any of the smooth surfaces, because they don't bleed small fibers the way the wovern cloth does.


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## cirdan (Jun 18, 2021)

jis said:


> As for how much change is possible in these refreshes, remember, one of the requirements of the Amfleet refresh was that it had to be achievable at many terminal station which had any maintenance facility at all, and the cars did not have to be sent to Bear or Wilmington for the refresh. I suppose the Superliner refreshes are also being done under similar constraints.



I hope that besides refreshing the interiors, they are also doing something about them mechanically to ensure they last until, well, whenever they are finally going to be replaced without causing undue maintenance problems.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 18, 2021)

cirdan said:


> I hope that besides refreshing the interiors, they are also doing something about them mechanically to ensure they last until, well, whenever they are finally going to be replaced without causing undue maintenance problems.


Heck, I just want them to clean under the seats in the roomettes.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 18, 2021)

No mechanical improvements? Same poor AC?


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## jis (Jun 18, 2021)

cirdan said:


> I hope that besides refreshing the interiors, they are also doing something about them mechanically to ensure they last until, well, whenever they are finally going to be replaced without causing undue maintenance problems.


To quote Jim Matthews of RPA “This is only a soft surface refresh”. So no change to any hardware.

Afterall there is only so much you can do with less than 80k per car.


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## Dustyroad (Jun 18, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> The roomette seats in particular look like they came out of a '60's classic auto.
> 
> I hope those blue lines across the pillowcase are not raised piping that will leave corresponding indentations on the side of my face.


I hope so too. I am a little short and it might be where my head is.


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## PaulM (Jun 18, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> Very encouraging report and pictures, particularly the dining car. Real cloth napkins; flowers; real dinnerware and flatware; an improved menu: Christmas is coming early this year!


Never mind Christmas. I had to double check that the release wasn't dated 4/1.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 18, 2021)

jis said:


> To quote Jim Matthews of RPA “This is only a soft surface refresh”. So no change to any hardware.
> 
> Afterall there is only so much you can do with less than 80k per car.



It's an indication that they aren't going to be replacing the Superliners any time soon - a shame to miss out on all the federal money circulating.


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## neroden (Jun 19, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> It's an indication that they aren't going to be replacing the Superliners any time soon - a shame to miss out on all the federal money circulating.


Lead time on railcar orders is long. Even if they order new Superliners this year with federal money allocated this year, they aren't getting the first one for at least five years.

The Siemens, Alstom, Kawasaki, and CAF plants are booked several years ahead, and any other manufacturer would probably have to build a new US assembly plant, or at least have to hire new employees. It's going to be Siemens or Alstom anyway.

Also, if it's anything other than Siemens's single-level coaches, design of the new cars is going to take a year or two just to make sure it's compliant with current regulations. Sleepers will definitely take a couple of years of design work.

This soft-surface replacement is designed to keep the Superliners tolerable for that time period, and you can't read anything into it about the replacement of the Superliners, which wouldn't have the first car delivered for years in any case.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 19, 2021)

neroden said:


> Lead time on railcar orders is long. Even if they order new Superliners this year with federal money allocated this year, they aren't getting the first one for at least five years.
> 
> The Siemens, Alstom, Kawasaki, and CAF plants are booked several years ahead, and any other manufacturer would probably have to build a new US assembly plant, or at least have to hire new employees. It's going to be Siemens or Alstom anyway.
> 
> ...



Perhaps but I have not heard a peep out of Amtrak regarding a new fleet. And how can the existing equipment be made tolerable without some mechanical work? A new cushion and a paint job will be little comfort when the AC doesn't work. I'd rather apply that $80,000 to fixing the mechanics. My fear is that they will not lobby Congress for funding for new Superliner equipment. Hope I am wrong.


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## jis (Jun 19, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Perhaps but I have not heard a peep out of Amtrak regarding a new fleet. And how can the existing equipment be made tolerable without some mechanical work? A new cushion and a paint job will be little comfort when the AC doesn't work. I'd rather apply that $80,000 to fixing the mechanics. My fear is that they will not lobby Congress for funding for new Superliner equipment. Hope I am wrong.


You really need to go to the Amtrak web site, download the fleet plan and read it carefully


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## PVD (Jun 19, 2021)

People seem to forget that the Acelas got a refresh even after the replacements had been ordered.....


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## jis (Jun 19, 2021)

Amtrak Begins Multi-Year Effort to Refurbish Long-Distance Equipment


Amtrak’s bi-level Superliners will get new upholstery, carpet, tables, lighting and more as part of a multi-million upgrade.




railfan.com





This one has a photo of the table end of the SSL.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 19, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> A new cushion and a paint job will be little comfort when the AC doesn't work.



Have the AC units on individual superliners been failing?


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## jis (Jun 19, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Have the AC units on individual superliners been failing?


Besides even if an AC unit on a car fails it should be fixed or replaced as a matter of maintenance. That has nothing to do with across the board mechanical overhaul of the car. I am also not sure how one goes about installing modern modular sealed rooftop AC untis in cars that are fundamentally not designed to take one or two such units, like say the Siemens Venture cars are. The Amfleets suffer from this same issue as do the Viewliners, even the newest ones apparently, unfortunately.

Yes it would be nice if all the cars could be stripped down to bare bones and rebuilt. But canceling how many trains or shortening how many trains further for a while to find the money to do it would anyone here tolerate? Wouldn't one also rather save that money if it is around to acquire completely new cars with a much longer overall life expectancy?


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## cocojacoby (Jun 19, 2021)

jis said:


> Amtrak Begins Multi-Year Effort to Refurbish Long-Distance Equipment
> 
> 
> Amtrak’s bi-level Superliners will get new upholstery, carpet, tables, lighting and more as part of a multi-million upgrade.
> ...



This report mentions that LED lighting will be installed but other reports said negative on that. We will have to wait and see I guess.


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## PVD (Jun 19, 2021)

There is more than one aspect to an LED retrofit. Fluorescent tubes can easily be replaced with LED tubes, they are available in types for installation with or without a ballast removal, and for more than one type of ballast. Swapping reading lights would be a separate, but not surprising refresh.


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## cocojacoby (Jun 19, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> "Orange and brown color scheme?"
> ...



This is what they are talking about:


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## railiner (Jun 19, 2021)

cirdan said:


> I hope that besides refreshing the interiors, they are also doing something about them mechanically to ensure they last until, well, whenever they are finally going to be replaced without causing undue maintenance problems.


Or at least fortify the interiors so passengers don’t need to use shims and duct tape…


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 19, 2021)

jis said:


> Besides even if an AC unit on a car fails it should be fixed or replaced as a matter of maintenance. That has nothing to do with across the board mechanical overhaul of the car. I am also not sure how one goes about installing modern modular sealed rooftop AC untis in cars that are fundamentally not designed to take one or two such units, like say the Siemens Venture cars are. The Amfleets suffer from this same issue as do the Viewliners, even the newest ones apparently, unfortunately.
> 
> Yes it would be nice if all the cars could be stripped down to bare bones and rebuilt. But canceling how many trains or shortening how many trains further for a while to find the money to do it would anyone here tolerate? Wouldn't one also rather save that money if it is around to acquire completely new cars with a much longer overall life expectancy?
> [/QUOTE
> ...


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 19, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> If we knew for a fact that new Superliners were on the way it would be easier to tolerate the existing equipment, even if superficially reconditioned. What concerns me is the absence of any plan to replace them. Has money been allocated for new Superliners? I don't think the federal spending spree can go on forever.



Did you bother following Jis' suggestion above and go to the Amtrak website and download the fleet plan?


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## jis (Jun 19, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> If we knew for a fact that new Superliners were on the way it would be easier to tolerate the existing equipment, even if superficially reconditioned. What concerns me is the absence of any plan to replace them. Has money been allocated for new Superliners? I don't think the federal spending spree can go on forever.


Having a plan and money being allocated are two different things that you conflate at your own peril. 

There is a plan more than 5 years out. The way money is authorized and appropriated in the federal budgeting process, there is no way to have money allocated beyond just estimates of cost. It is beyond the five year authorization horizon. But still there is a plan and no amount of bellyaching about the fund allocation will make it happen at this time in the normal flow of things. There is also that open question about whether to continue with bi-levels or go for fleet uniformity that is yet to be answered. That would have an impact on what money to allocate for how many.

As for whether the US public will still want an LD network fiver years from now when the funding decisions come due, that in itself is of course anyone's guess depending on how the political winds blow. And BTW, even if the funds were allocated now they could as easily be rescinded a few years from now. It has happened before.


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## west point (Jun 19, 2021)

let us see 80k per car. Revenue per car is hard to estimate but maybe $20k per trip. 4 trips would pay for the refresh.


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## jis (Jun 19, 2021)

railiner said:


> Or at least fortify the interiors so passengers don’t need to use shims and duct tape…


Don't put your shims and duct tapes away. This is only a soft surface refresh. The fixing up of any broken hard surfaces will happen in normal maintenance cycle I presume.


west point said:


> let us see 80k per car. Revenue per car is hard to estimate but maybe $20k per trip. 4 trips would pay for the refresh.


Since this is paid for out of normal revenues, one would presume something like that is happening. I suppose it is easier to take a hit when you are already down in the toilet and are being shored up by one time funds to cover for losses.

What bugs me is that they do not do this sort of thing like every five years or so. With the change in the authorization language moving the focus from profitability to maximize the benefits of Federal investment, some of this might change for the better. Only time will tell.


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## west point (Jun 19, 2021)

PVD said:


> There is more than one aspect to an LED retrofit. Fluorescent tubes can easily be replaced with LED tubes, they are available in types for installation with or without a ballast removal, and for more than one type of ballast. Swapping reading lights would be a separate, but not surprising refresh.


 The LED replacements are fairly easy. I have several 2 bulb single pin fluorescent fixtures over 25 years old. With a little swapping around of failed ballasts and bulbs am slowly converting to all LED. Do not replace with ballast type LEDs as new ballasts will eventually fail and waste the electricity maintaining the ballast.. Rewiring just calls for neutral at one end and hot at other end for both connectors. That way only one bulb needs installation unless surplus of LED which one of my fixture has. The LED bulbs really put out a lot of light with just one 
As bulbs and ballast go bad I rewire a unit at that time which takes about 30 - 40 minutes.


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## PVD (Jun 19, 2021)

An LED does not use a ballast, it uses a driver. It would almost never make sense to replace the ballast and then install a ballast compatible LED. When I say LED with ballast, I am referring to an LED tube that will go into an existing fixture without rewiring to bypass the ballast.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 19, 2021)

jis said:


> Having a plan and money being allocated are two different things that you conflate at your own peril.
> 
> There is a plan more than 5 years out. The way money is authorized and appropriated in the federal budgeting process, there is no way to have money allocated beyond just estimates of cost. It is beyond the five year authorization horizon. But still there is a plan and no amount of bellyaching about the fund allocation will make it happen at this time in the normal flow of things. There is also that open question about whether to continue with bi-levels or go for fleet uniformity that is yet to be answered. That would have an impact on what money to allocate for how many.
> 
> As for whether the US public will still want an LD network fiver years from now when the funding decisions come due, that in itself is of course anyone's guess depending on how the political winds blow. And BTW, even if the funds were allocated now they could as easily be rescinded a few years from now. It has happened before.



Interesting that they have a five year plan to replace the Superliners. Is there somewhere that we can read about this?


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## Dustyroad (Jun 19, 2021)

It will be interesting to find out how many of the soap and shampoo dispenser are empty because the cabin steward is too busy to fill them. I will take my own to make sure I have some.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 19, 2021)

I actually hope they don't replace the soft original lighting in the Superliner II sleepers during a refurb. I hate the harsh, too bright lights in the refurbished Superliner Is. It leaks through the curtains, especially since they replaced they replaced the original, thick blackout curtains with much thinner material.


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## jis (Jun 19, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Interesting that they have a five year plan to replace the Superliners. Is there somewhere that we can read about this?


No. They do not have a Five Year Plan to replace the Superliners. They have a plan to decide whether to rebuild or replace. Any execution of said plan once developed is beyond the five year horizon (post 2026). The Superliners will be around for at least ten more years as far as I can tell, unless they decide to rebuild of course.

I think the latest is in the document Five Year Plans - Service and Asset Line Plans FY 2021-2026. It is a public document posted at amtrak.com. It is a legally required document that has to be submitted to Congress as supporting document for funding Authorization and Appropriation request.


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## joelkfla (Jun 19, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> It will be interesting to find out how many of the soap and shampoo dispenser are empty because the cabin steward is too busy to fill them. I will take my own to make sure I have some.


Since when does Amtrak have cabin stewards?


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## IndyLions (Jun 19, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Since when does Amtrak have cabin stewards?


Let’s not get too caught up in titles - I think we know who they were talking about. Amtrak’s Onboard Service folks have titles that tend to meld together as alphabet soup on this forum - especially for newcomers.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 19, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Let’s not get too caught up in titles - I think we know who they were talking about. Amtrak’s Onboard Service folks have titles that tend to meld together as alphabet soup on this forum - especially for newcomers.



The last time I travelled first class on the Silver Metoer my cabin steward brought me a drink from the club car!


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 20, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The last time I travelled first class on the Silver Metoer my cabin steward brought me a drink from the club car!



That was in 1960?


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## railiner (Jun 20, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Let’s not get too caught up in titles - I think we know who they were talking about. Amtrak’s Onboard Service folks have titles that tend to meld together as alphabet soup on this forum - especially for newcomers.


Especially "SCA" or Sleeping Car Attendant...officially they are "TA-S", or Train Attendant - Sleeper. The ones working coaches are "TA-C"....


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## AmHope (Jun 20, 2021)

I'd be happy if they'd fix sliding doors to stop them from rattling, and replace the tray tables with ones that stay level (and preferably made of a material that is stronger for less weight). Those are my two biggest gripes involving hardware in the cars. 

The thing I'm most excited for is the new bedding. It looks a lot more comfortable than the existing linen rags they call blankets. This is a no-brainer upgrade as it doesn't cost a lot of money. In particular if the pillows are improved that would be amazing so I wouldn't have to bring my own. 

For future cars I hope they keep a bi-level design. I love the Superliners in terms of the sheer amount of space that they have in them and the great views. I'm sure Alstom could create a great new Superliner with better interiors and trucks/suspension while keeping the existing frame style (which they own since they bought Bombardier). 

Whatever happens I sure hope they get moving on replacements or rebuilds as the existing Superliners are audibly falling apart. =( They *sound* old every time they hit a bump in the track.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 20, 2021)

Ferroequinologist said:


> That was in 1960?



2019.


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## jis (Jun 20, 2021)

AmHope said:


> For future cars I hope they keep a bi-level design. I love the Superliners in terms of the sheer amount of space that they have in them and the great views. I'm sure Alstom could create a great new Superliner with better interiors and trucks/suspension while keeping the existing frame style (which they own since they bought Bombardier).
> 
> Whatever happens I sure hope they get moving on replacements or rebuilds as the existing Superliners are audibly falling apart. =( They *sound* old every time they hit a bump in the track.


The decision on whether to rebuild or replace is a few years away. After that if replace is the decision then the next decision would be replace with what. If the example of what happened with the Amfleet replacement is followed, they will probably ask the vendors to suggest what they would do for what price, to meet some broad requirements, and choose from them. Don't expect an order to be placed before 2026.


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## Dustyroad (Jun 20, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Since when does Amtrak have cabin stewards?


What do we call them then, since you are so smart. Then I will know in the future.


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## Dustyroad (Jun 20, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> Let’s not get too caught up in titles - I think we know who they were talking about. Amtrak’s Onboard Service folks have titles that tend to meld together as alphabet soup on this forum - especially for newcomers.


Thank you.


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## AmHope (Jun 20, 2021)

I miss when my grandpa was alive and we'd take Amtrak -- he called them Pullman Porters, and he lamented that there weren't any Harvey Girls.


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## me_little_me (Jun 20, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> I actually hope they don't replace the soft original lighting in the Superliner II sleepers during a refurb. I hate the harsh, too bright lights in the refurbished Superliner Is. It leaks through the curtains, especially since they replaced they replaced the original, thick blackout curtains with much thinner material.


Right Problem. Wrong solution. They should use heavy duty curtains, not make the lights too low.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 20, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> What do we call them then, since you are so smart. Then I will know in the future.



Sleeping Car Attendants (SCA) or Train Attendant - Sleeper. 

The attendants in the cafe car and diner are “Lead Service Attendants (LSA).


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## jis (Jun 20, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Right Problem. Wrong solution. They should use heavy duty curtains, not make the lights too low.


I agree. The dim corridor lights on the Superliners gives it a bit of a walking into a dungeon feel, which is really somewhat gloomy.


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## Ziv (Jun 20, 2021)

And a bulb w slightly more lumens but a warmer color might help too. The Kelvin rating makes a big difference. 



me_little_me said:


> Right Problem. Wrong solution. They should use heavy duty curtains, not make the lights too low.


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## PVD (Jun 20, 2021)

Many of the newer LED luminaires on the market (aside from greatly enhanced compatability with lighting control systems and dimmers) now feature selectable color temperature. Teaching color temp is always fun, since lower K temp is "warmer" vs higher K temp which is "cooler" Always take a few minutes to sink in.


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## AmHope (Jun 20, 2021)

jis said:


> I agree. The dim corridor lights on the Superliners gives it a bit of a walking into a dungeon feel, which is really somewhat gloomy.



Hey, some people pay good money for the "dungeon" experience on craigslist. This is an untapped market for Amtrak to explore.


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## Dustyroad (Jun 20, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> Since when does Amtrak have cabin stewards?


Since I have cruised so often, that name just slipped out. I am trying learn all the names and abbreviations here for things. It will take me a while since there are so many.


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## PVD (Jun 20, 2021)

Of course, the lines can blur by assignment. The SCA may be either the TA-S assigned to a car, or in some cases with a transition sleeper, one of the TA-C picks it up. That's part of why you generally just hear coach attendant or SCA used.....


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## OBS (Jun 20, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> Since I have cruised so often, that name just slipped out. I am trying learn all the names and abbreviations here for things. It will take me a while since there are so many.


Whatever you do, just don't call him/her "Porter".....Oh wait, we already went down that road......


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## johnmiller (Jun 20, 2021)

If you know your car number, is there any way to know if it has been refurbished and when? I was about to book a sleeper and I was curious what shape it might be in. Thank you!


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## Cal (Jun 20, 2021)

AmHope said:


> I'd be happy if they'd fix sliding doors to stop them from rattling, and replace the tray tables with ones that stay level (and preferably made of a material that is stronger for less weight). Those are my two biggest gripes involving hardware in the cars.
> 
> The thing I'm most excited for is the new bedding. It looks a lot more comfortable than the existing linen rags they call blankets. This is a no-brainer upgrade as it doesn't cost a lot of money. In particular if the pillows are improved that would be amazing so I wouldn't have to bring my own.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said!


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 21, 2021)

johnmiller said:


> If you know your car number, is there any way to know if it has been refurbished and when? I was about to book a sleeper and I was curious what shape it might be in. Thank you!


No. The car number on your ticket only indicates where the car is in the consist.


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## johnmiller (Jun 21, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> No. The car number on your ticket only indicates where the car is in the consist.



Okay, thanks! It was worth a try.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 21, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> No. The car number on your ticket only indicates where the car is in the consist.



It gets a bit confusing. The physical car has a number (and some also have a name) but the car number on your ticket indicates where the car is located within the consist of a particular train.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 21, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It gets a bit confusing. The physical car has a number (and some also have a name) but the car number on your ticket indicates where the car is located within the consist of a particular train.


I chose to leave out the extraneous info - so as not to confuse.


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## lrh442 (Jun 21, 2021)

jis said:


> No. They do not have a Five Year Plan to replace the Superliners. They have a plan to decide whether to rebuild or replace. Any execution of said plan once developed is beyond the five year horizon (post 2026). The Superliners will be around for at least ten more years as far as I can tell, unless they decide to rebuild of course.



If we hope to ever increase the number of western LD trains (either by frequency or routes) they need to _both_ rebuild the existing Superliners _and_ order new equipment. Otherwise we're locked into the equipment-constrained paradigm that is choking off ridership on current trains and making additional routes & frequencies a pipe dream. A heavy overhaul could start relatively soon, trickle them into service over 5 years, and have something to show for the current (but fragile) pro-rail environment on the Hill. Then bring on the new designs a decade hence.


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## PVD (Jun 21, 2021)

When all of the single level cars purchased by the states go into service, a handful of Superliner cars likely become available, but no sleepers. Conceivably, you could refit some Horizons as LD coaches and could convert the Cap Limited, putting a few sleepers into the mix. But not in the quantities that would support any major moves. You could beef up existing consists, and might gain enough single level cars to support a new day train route or two, but I don't see much more than that without the arrival of more cars. And we still have to talk about power.


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## Cal (Jun 21, 2021)

johnmiller said:


> If you know your car number, is there any way to know if it has been refurbished and when? I was about to book a sleeper and I was curious what shape it might be in. Thank you!


If you're train goes by a railcam, you can try to check what consist will most likely be yours and go off that. However it's no guarantee.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> If you're train goes by a railcam, you can try to check what consist will most likely be yours and go off that. However it's no guarantee.


Would there be any exterior spotting features that would indicate a refurbished car?


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## Cal (Jun 21, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Would there be any exterior spotting features that would indicate a refurbished car?


No, you can only really tell if it's a I or II.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> No, you can only really tell if it's a I or II.


That's what I thought. Although I would assume that the IIs would be the first sleepers to get the refurb, since they are pretty much as delivered and are definitely getting tatty.

Changing the subject, since the proposed refurb is on the soft products (upholstery, bedding), does anyone know if they are going to redo the restrooms along the lines of Superliner I refurb? At $62K/car that seems dubious.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 21, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> That's what I thought. Although I would assume that the IIs would be the first sleepers to get the refurb, since they are pretty much as delivered and are definitely getting tatty.
> 
> Changing the subject, since the proposed refurb is on the soft products (upholstery, bedding), does anyone know if they are going to redo the restrooms along the lines of Superliner I refurb? At $62K/car that seems dubious.


Those Superliner II Restrooms and Showers really need Updating, perhaps even more so than the ratty carpet,curtains upholstery, door latches and the electronics in the rooms!


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## oboedeb (Jun 21, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> The roomette seats in particular look like they came out of a '60's classic auto.
> 
> I hope those blue lines across the pillowcase are not raised piping that will leave corresponding indentations on the side of my face.


pass it off as a dueling scar


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## Willbridge (Jun 21, 2021)

jis said:


> Having a plan and money being allocated are two different things that you conflate at your own peril.
> 
> There is a plan more than 5 years out. The way money is authorized and appropriated in the federal budgeting process, there is no way to have money allocated beyond just estimates of cost. It is beyond the five year authorization horizon. But still there is a plan and no amount of bellyaching about the fund allocation will make it happen at this time in the normal flow of things. There is also that open question about whether to continue with bi-levels or go for fleet uniformity that is yet to be answered. That would have an impact on what money to allocate for how many.
> 
> As for whether the US public will still want an LD network fiver years from now when the funding decisions come due, that in itself is of course anyone's guess depending on how the political winds blow. And BTW, even if the funds were allocated now they could as easily be rescinded a few years from now. It has happened before.


You nailed a key part of the forever equipment problem. European railroads right now are digging around for equipment for overnight trains. Public policy switched from "night trains are passé" to "night trains are essential" (and endorsed by Thunberg) within about a two-year period. Only a few organizations saw it coming and a few more in Central and Eastern Europe lucked out because they hadn't disposed of theirs yet.


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## west point (Jun 22, 2021)

A problem not mentioned is that there needs to be very visible car numbers posted at entrances to the cars.


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## Cal (Jun 22, 2021)

west point said:


> A problem not mentioned is that there needs to be very visible car numbers posted at entrances to the cars.


In my experience they are generally pretty easy to see


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2021)

west point said:


> A problem not mentioned is that there needs to be very visible car numbers posted at entrances to the cars.


That are correct. I have seen line numbers that weren't even for the right train. One time in Chicago the 730 car had 631 showing in the window. I only knew it was my car because of its position in the consist. I told the attendant, he pretty much shrugged, but started asking everyone who walked up that far "Car 730?".

I was a Superliner I so had the car line number on the roller


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 22, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> That are correct. I have seen line numbers that weren't even for the right train. One time in Chicago the 730 car had 631 showing in the window. I only knew it was my car because of its position in the consist. I told the attendant, he pretty much shrugged, but started asking everyone who walked up that far "Car 730?".
> 
> I was a Superliner I so had the car line number on the roller



It’s possible the Car Attendants aren’t allowed or even able to change the numbers so there wasn’t anything he could do.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s possible the Car Attendants aren’t allowed or even able to change the numbers so there wasn’t anything he could do.


They can and he did after we were underway and didn't have to monitor the door.

I don't blame him as much as the coach yard, although he should have checked it before they opened the train for boarding.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 22, 2021)

You must watch your SCA like a hawk! Haha.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You must watch your SCA like a hawk! Haha.


No, I just like to hang out on the platform after I get my stuff stowed before departure.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 22, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> That are correct. I have seen line numbers that weren't even for the right train. One time in Chicago the 730 car had 631 showing in the window. I only knew it was my car because of its position in the consist. I told the attendant, he pretty much shrugged, but started asking everyone who walked up that far "Car 730?".
> 
> I was a Superliner I so had the car line number on the roller


Yep, I’ve seen many cars with the wrong # showing. As I recall, I saw a Silver Meteor coach car in Harrisburg, PA once.


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## Nick Farr (Jun 22, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Only a few organizations saw it coming and a few more in Central and Eastern Europe lucked out because they hadn't disposed of theirs yet.



Well, as far as Eastern Europe goes, Night Trains are often the only viable option due to a lack of HSR corridors and service in Eastern Europe. Munich to Berlin is a 4 hr DB ICE ride any time of day. However, Belgrade to Vienna (a similar distance) is a 9 hour bus ride or a night train.


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## Brian Battuello (Jun 22, 2021)

I've seen quite a few 48's that should be 49's. I generally just wave my ticket or phone at SCA's until one of them points me.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2021)

I don't care about the opposite direction train number, I've been in many 830s and 31s that showed 730/31 and vice versa.

But when it is both an entirely different train and car line, well, that throws me.


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## OBS (Jun 22, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> They can and he did after we were underway and didn't have to monitor the door.
> 
> I don't blame him as much as the coach yard, although he should have checked it before they opened the train for boarding.


Unfortunately, the coach yard does nothing with the line numbers. It is the attendant responsibility. Subsequently, if you see a LD car on a train without coach/sleeper attendants, then the numbers are not adjusted accordingly.


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## zephyr17 (Jun 22, 2021)

OBS said:


> Unfortunately, the coach yard does nothing with the line numbers. It is the attendant responsibility. Subsequently, if you see a LD car on a train without coach/sleeper attendants, then the numbers are not adjusted accordingly.


Thanks, good to know.


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## Cal (Jun 22, 2021)

OBS said:


> Unfortunately, the coach yard does nothing with the line numbers. It is the attendant responsibility. Subsequently, if you see a LD car on a train without coach/sleeper attendants, then the numbers are not adjusted accordingly.


I know there is (or at least, was) usually one SCA per sleeping car, sometimes also having to deal with a transdorm. But how many coach attendants are on any given train?


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## OBS (Jun 22, 2021)

For Superliner coaches it is generally one for every two cars. For single level it can vary one for every 2, 3, or four cars depending on the train and the ridership.


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## Way2Kewl (Jun 22, 2021)

I do like to see these correct car numbers displayed not only to validate I'm getting on the right one before I even step forward but also so I can get an idea of the full consist and how they've numbered the rest of the sleepers and coach cars on a given route when at a stretch stop. 

“Most” of the time the car number is displayed correct in the window. Many times it’s not correct.
“Most of the time I have a wonderful SCA that seems to love their job. Many times I have an SCA that doesn’t give a hoot.
I think there is a relation.


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## Cal (Jun 23, 2021)

Rehabbed coach on the Zephyr (I believe today)


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## Way2Kewl (Jun 23, 2021)

Maybe it's the 0630


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 23, 2021)

Cal said:


> Rehabbed coach on the Zephyr (I believe today)



Donner Lake, one of the many Highlites on the Zephyr Route!


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 23, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> Donner Lake, one of the many Highlites on the Zephyr Route!



I’m mad at donner lake - it got me in trouble! I was in the very last roomette by the railfan window so after lunch I went to my room instead of the lounge so I could get some unique photos. Well we come by donner lake so I step into the roomette across from me (had been empty the entire trip and clearly nobody had boarded) to take some photos of the lake and of course when I step out the sca saw me and scolded me. 

I’m not sure why I blame donner lake... but I do!


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## Cal (Jun 23, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m mad at donner lake - it got me in trouble! I was in the very last roomette by the railfan window so after lunch I went to my room instead of the lounge so I could get some unique photos. Well we come by donner lake so I step into the roomette across from me (had been empty the entire trip and clearly nobody had boarded) to take some photos of the lake and of course when I step out the sca saw me and scolded me.
> 
> I’m not sure why I blame donner lake... but I do!


Blame the Center of Excellence!


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## Brian Battuello (Jun 23, 2021)

I always felt a little odd having lunch in the dining car as we pass Donner Lake…


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## Brian Battuello (Jun 23, 2021)

And I am old enough to remember when there was the original route over the top and a much longer tunnel beneath. You never knew which one you would get, it depended on freight traffic. As we approached the switch I would cross my fingers and hope for the high way!


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## neroden (Jun 25, 2021)

Brian Battuello said:


> And I am old enough to remember when there was the original route over the top and a much longer tunnel beneath. You never knew which one you would get, it depended on freight traffic. As we approached the switch I would cross my fingers and hope for the high way!


You can see parts of the original route from the current route... it ran along cliff edges which have collapsed in spots, so it is gone for *good*. Actually a pretty terrifying route.


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## frequentflyer (Jun 30, 2021)




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## Bob Dylan (Jun 30, 2021)

frequentflyer said:


>



Nice!

If only the Texas Eagle and the Cap Ltd. the Orphan Superliner Trains, would get these, but as usual will probably be last in line!


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## railiner (Jun 30, 2021)

Brian Battuello said:


> I always felt a little odd having lunch in the dining car as we pass Donner Lake…


Why? Was "soylent green" on the menu that day?


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## PaTrainFan (Jun 30, 2021)

Is that "real" leather or faux? Hard for me to believe they would use authentic leather.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 30, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Is that "real" leather or faux? Hard for me to believe they would use authentic leather.


It's Vinyl.


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## PaTrainFan (Jun 30, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> It's Vinyl.



Ugh. Prefer the cloth over cheap vinyl, but oh well. They needed the refresh.


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## mlanoue (Jul 1, 2021)

They definitely look nicer after the refresh. It was also interesting in the video when specifically mentioned how much she appreciated everybody writing and basically pushing the execs to bring back better options for the dining car.


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## Cal (Jul 1, 2021)

I still don't love the sleeper look, as again, new carpets and seats and everything else looking old. They really should have put in the new tables in at least.


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## Palmland (Jul 1, 2021)

This is really good news and what so many of us had been hoping for. I’m surprised at the less than enthusiastic comments here. And we have a return of the traditional dining as well.


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## PVD (Jul 1, 2021)

Brian Battuello said:


> I always felt a little odd having lunch in the dining car as we pass Donner Lake…


I keep thinking I'll be at a crowded restaurant waiting for a table, and hear Donner, party of 8.... and if no one steps forward, in 15 mins, Donner, party of 7, and so on,,,,,,


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## PVD (Jul 1, 2021)

Cal said:


> I still don't love the sleeper look, as again, new carpets and seats and everything else looking old. They really should have put in the new tables in at least.


I really like the new tables, but without knowing what would be involved in fitting them I can't say whether it would be feasible in a low cost quick turn job. If too much mechanical alteration for attachment, or trimming of panels was involved, that would restrict who could do the work, and add considerably to cost and turn around.


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## Cal (Jul 1, 2021)

PVD said:


> I really like the new tables, but without knowing what would be involved in fitting them I can't say whether it would be feasible in a low cost quick turn job. If too much mechanical alteration for attachment, or trimming of panels was involved, that would restrict who could do the work, and add considerably to cost and turn around.


They added them in the coaches.


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## PVD (Jul 1, 2021)

But only in a couple of rows. I would much prefer them over the old, but I don't have any knowledge of what is required to fit them.


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## daybeers (Jul 27, 2021)

It's now the end of July. Has anyone gotten a chance to ride on one of the refreshed Superliner coaches or sleepers? I'm crossing my fingers to get one on the CONO in mid-September, but not counting on it.


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## jis (Jul 27, 2021)

Cal said:


> I still don't love the sleeper look, as again, new carpets and seats and everything else looking old. They really should have put in the new tables in at least.


Suffice it to say that they did not put in new tables even when they did a much more elaborate refurbishment of the Superliner I Sleepers way back when they put in the faux wood paneling replacing the grungy carpet on the wall.


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## dlagrua (Jul 29, 2021)

The refurbishment is certainly an improvement but I just wonder if the systems were upgraded. On all the sleeper trips that we have ever taken the temperature controls in the sleepers have never worked. I just hope that the HVAC systems were upgraded. Then there is the suspension that can get a bit rough. Cosmetics are nice but an overall overhaul would be best. Does anyone know if any mechanical upgrades were made?


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## jis (Jul 29, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> The refurbishment is certainly an improvement but I just wonder if the systems were upgraded. On all the sleeper trips that we have ever taken the temperature controls in the sleepers have never worked. I just hope that the HVAC systems were upgraded. Then there is the suspension that can get a bit rough. Cosmetics are nice but an overall overhaul would be best. Does anyone know if any mechanical upgrades were made?


They were not as part of this refresh.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 29, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> The refurbishment is certainly an improvement but I just wonder if the systems were upgraded. On all the sleeper trips that we have ever taken the temperature controls in the sleepers have never worked. I just hope that the HVAC systems were upgraded. Then there is the suspension that can get a bit rough. Cosmetics are nice but an overall overhaul would be best. Does anyone know if any mechanical upgrades were made?


Did you read the article on the first post? It tells what the updates were.


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## dlagrua (Jul 29, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Did you read the article on the first post? It tells what the updates were.


Quite honestly the refresh is very nice, but we do not follow all aspects of what Amtrak is doing these days that closely. We are not using the LD service at the present time but maybe in the future based on competitiveness. that will change.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 29, 2021)

Probably not for the $62K/car budget for the refurbishment.


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## me_little_me (Jul 29, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Probably not for the $62K/car budget for the refurbishment.


In Chicago, that would be enough to get the Windows cleaned!


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 29, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> In Chicago, that would be enough to get the Windows cleaned!


Except they wouldn't be cleaned, but Pencil Whipped!


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## PaTrainFan (Aug 25, 2021)

Has anyone seen any of these cars in service yet? Obviously it is a long process to refresh the entire fleet and I give creedence to the fact this is a more complex undertaking than it was with Amfleet, but wonder when there would be enough running that we would actually see them during travel this summer. And the summer is almost over.


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## Cal (Aug 25, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Has anyone seen any of these cars in service yet? Obviously it is a long process to refresh the entire fleet and I give creedence to the fact this is a more complex undertaking than it was with Amfleet, but wonder when there would be enough running that we would actually see them during travel this summer. And the summer is almost over.


None on my SWC trip


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## me_little_me (Aug 26, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Has anyone seen any of these cars in service yet? Obviously it is a long process to refresh the entire fleet and I give creedence to the fact this is a more complex undertaking than it was with Amfleet, but wonder when there would be enough running that we would actually see them during travel this summer. And the summer is almost over.


They are holding them back because that's an Amtrak tradition started with the arrival of the VL2 sleepers.


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## Dustyroad (Aug 26, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> Since I have cruised so often, that name just slipped out. I am trying learn all the names and abbreviations here for things. It will take me a while since there are so many.


LOL, I'm with you. There are so many it is very confusing. There was a link posted of all the abbreviations and what the stood for, but I don't know where it is. Perhaps some one can post the link for it again. Good luck.


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## Cal (Aug 26, 2021)

Dustyroad said:


> LOL, I'm with you. There are so many it is very confusing. There was a link posted of all the abbreviations and what the stood for, but I don't know where it is. Perhaps some one can post the link for it again. Good luck.


Your wish is my command.






Commonly Used Abbreviations and Terms


This topic has been opened to provide a glossary of various abbreviations and terms that are used by AU members. Like many other subjects, Amtrak and rail travel can have a language unto itself that, for the uninitiated, might be baffling and a bit intimidating. The posts that follow define...




www.amtraktrains.com


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## Dustyroad (Aug 26, 2021)

Cal said:


> Your wish is my command.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## west point (Aug 27, 2021)

A thought. A few airlines have announced cutbacks this fall at a higher % than pre C-19. This may be because potential passengers are more wary of making longer range plans ? Now will this apply to Amtrak who knows ? Hopefully Amtrak will not reduce service again once budget is signed by president. ? If C-19 delta goes wild this fall things might change and god forbid a new variant emerges then what ?


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## zephyr17 (Aug 27, 2021)

Well, they are under a mandate that has the force of law to run daily for the time being. Cutting back to triweekly is not an option for management in the immediate future.


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## cirdan (Aug 27, 2021)

PaTrainFan said:


> Has anyone seen any of these cars in service yet?



Goodness no. Passengers would only get them dirty.


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## AmHope (Aug 29, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> The refurbishment is certainly an improvement but I just wonder if the systems were upgraded. On all the sleeper trips that we have ever taken the temperature controls in the sleepers have never worked. I just hope that the HVAC systems were upgraded. Then there is the suspension that can get a bit rough. Cosmetics are nice but an overall overhaul would be best. Does anyone know if any mechanical upgrades were made?



The superliner temperature controls work fine, they're just not very intuitive. They control the power to an electric space heater in the wall that takes time to warm up. This does nothing to control the temperature coming from the vent in the ceiling. If you're cold, just close the ceiling vent and then turn up the heater dial and *wait*. I do hate that they're labeled "temperature" as that implies they can somehow cool as well as heat, and they don't.

Regarding the lack of new Superliner sleeper stock... ...since they ARE finally getting the Viewliner II sleepers, maybe they can do some quick repairs on older Viewliner Is that come out of service and stick them on the end of the Transition Dorms, and use the Viewliners for crew lodging instead. Then they could sell *all* the transition car roomettes to paying customers, and they could even use the downstairs lounge for some added value for sleeper passengers. If staff absolutely needed office/break space they could stick a Venture on along with the Viewliner.

This would add a bunch of roomettes while increasing effective passenger train length by only one car since the staff cars wouldn't need to stop at the platform, while keeping to superliner layout to not confuse passengers with a mixed consist. 

Since none of the western LD trains ever reach NE Corridor speeds, and most never even exceed 79mph, the old Viewliners won't need the level of maintenance that they need for the NEC.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 29, 2021)

DSS&A said:


> Amtrak unveiled its first rehabilitated Superliners at Chicago Union Station on June 15th.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yey for progress! Let's hope that includes the plumbing and heating / cooling systems that are always breaking down or dysfunctioning!


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## jis (Aug 29, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> Yey for progress! Let's hope that includes the plumbing and heating / cooling systems that are always breaking down or dysfunctioning!


Unfortunately, it does not.


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## zephyr17 (Aug 29, 2021)

AmHope said:


> The superliner temperature controls work fine, they're just not very intuitive. They control the power to an electric space heater in the wall that takes time to warm up. This does nothing to control the temperature coming from the vent in the ceiling. If you're cold, just close the ceiling vent and then turn up the heater dial and *wait*. I do hate that they're labeled "temperature" as that implies they can somehow cool as well as heat, and they don't.


The temperature controls often do NOT work fine.

As far as the baseboard heating control on the wall goes, at least 50% of the time it does nothing in my recent experience. I had the misfortune once of being in a roomette where the floor heat was stuck full on and it was like being on the inside of a toaster. Most of the time if they are non-functional they just don't turn on the baseboard heat, which is preferable to running away even on the Builder in the winter. Been there, done that.

As to the vent, on Superliner Is the lever that controls the louvers is often jammed or broken. Superliner II louvers can be directly manipulated and are usually in good shape.

Finally a few times I have been in cars where the HVAC AC has failed and the whole car was uncomfortably warm.

Most of the posters here are veteran Amtrak riders and are familiar with the controls. The complaints about increasingly unreliable HVAC are valid, and bad vent louvers and non functioning baseboard heat controls are very common. They are real problems and not user error.

Thanks for explaining the controls most of us thoroughly understand, though .


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 29, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> The temperature controls often do NOT work fine.
> 
> As far as the baseboard heating control on the wall goes, at least 50% of the time it does nothing in my recent experience. I had the misfortune once of being in a roomette where the floor heat was stuck full on and it was like being on the inside of a toaster. Most of the time if they are non-functional they just don't turn on the baseboard heat, which is preferable to running away even on the Builder in the winter. Been there, done that.
> 
> ...


Well said! If it's hot one must sweat through the nite... and if you're on the TE you can't even escape to the SSL. Way too many times I've had this happen... and went to fine the conductor at the middle of the night to re-set the darn thing... which sometimes the will do and sometimes they will not do.

Too cold is easier to live with than too hot as you can cover up... but when it's sweltering you suffer.

Mostly those controls just don't work!


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## AmHope (Aug 30, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Thanks for explaining the controls most of us thoroughly understand, though .


Haha okay, I apologize. I'm just used to having to explain how they work elsewhere, obviously a large number of people here do understand how they work. I'm sure you can empathize with experiences with confused passengers twisting the dials randomly and waving their hands under the vents.

In terms of if they *are* working, they've worked every time for me, though I must confess that 95% of the time I have it turned off as the HVAC air is normally plenty warm for me (or too warm). It's usually only in deep winter that I turn them on.

The experience of having one stuck on though sounds hellish. 

I'd like a new design to have an incredibly simple system of dual hot/cold air ducts, and a simple robust louver to let you control mixture manually (I'm wary of the added complexity of one electronically controlled by a thermostat).


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## John819 (Aug 30, 2021)

Let's face it. The Superliners are nearing the end of their useful life. And because of the very strict interpretations of the ADA by disability advocates who are willing to sue everyone it is unlikely that we will see any new bi-level cars in the future. 

What would probably make sense is to have Siemens produce a new set of single level sleepers (and long distance coaches) for all routes, and then sell off or scrap the Superliners, Viewliners, and Amfleet IIs. After all, this is probably the one time in a generation that Amtrak will have funding.


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## jis (Aug 30, 2021)

I doubt the Viewliners will be scrapped in the next 20 years. Amfleet IIs will go way before anyone touches the Viewliners, other than to do a rebuild perhaps.

Whether Superliners will be rebuilt or not will be decided in the next five years. I suspect the Superliners will run for at least another 10 years, and more if they are rebuilt.


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## John819 (Aug 30, 2021)

It would probably cost as much to totally rebuild the Superliners as to get new single level cars.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 30, 2021)

The major design flaw of the Superliners is the tight winding stairwell in the center of the car... making it difficult to move even small carryon luggage a balancing act. It is also a barrier for handicapped. 

Double level cars everywhere else have mid or base level vestibules and a short stairwell up in tandem with a short stairwell down. The other big problem is the cooling and heating systems which have been discussed in length. Ventilation is a major issue with these cars. Many find physical discomfort with this design.

Improved multi-level design is being applied to commuter rail as seen in the illustrations below. Many hope for better designed LD cars... with either one level or two.


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## PerRock (Aug 30, 2021)

So Amtrak has announced (a while back) that Siemens is their preferred bidder. The current new cars are from Siemens's Venture line, which in it's self is based off their Viaggio cars, and they do make a Viaggio Twin (similar to the middle picture above). With that in mind, I could see Siemens coming out with a Venture Twin design for Amtrak. The Viaggio Twin is a little too "commuter" for a Superliner replacement, but with the extra height the US gauge allows, I could see them making it more spacious.


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## denmarks (Sep 4, 2021)

I read that all the sleeping cars are being updated. I will be travelling on the CZ next April. Will they be updated by then?


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## zephyr17 (Sep 4, 2021)

They are upgrading over a period of years and they are not doing it train by train.

All Superliners except those on the Auto Train run in what is effectively a national pool. The refurbished cars will appear somewhat randomly one by one in various trains as they are finished. No one here has reported any actually in the wild thus far. Hopefully by next year we will be seeing a few out there.


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## Triley (Sep 4, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> They are upgrading over a period of years and they are not doing it train by train.
> 
> All Superliners except those on the Auto Train run in what is effectively a national pool. The refurbished cars will appear somewhat randomly one by one in various trains as they are finished. No one here has reported any actually in the wild thus far. Hopefully by next year we will be seeing a few out there.



They've been reported out on the road, but they're only being completed at the rate of 3 per week. Yesterday while in the yard to get on my Cascades equipment, I walked by the coach that is currently being worked on for the week.


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## AmtrakBlue (Sep 4, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> They are upgrading over a period of years and they are not doing it train by train.
> 
> All Superliners except those on the Auto Train run in what is effectively a national pool. The refurbished cars will appear somewhat randomly one by one in various trains as they are finished. *No one here *has reported any actually in the wild thus far. Hopefully by next year we will be seeing a few out there.


Maybe not here, but I've seen reports about the refreshed coaches and lounges out on the rails. 

The first western sleeper with the new pillows/sheets/etc left CHI on the TE yesterday (or the day before). 9/1/21 CZ may get the pillows/etc next week.


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## PaTrainFan (Sep 5, 2021)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Maybe not here, but I've seen reports about the refreshed coaches and lounges out on the rails.
> 
> The first western sleeper with the new pillows/sheets/etc left CHI on the TE yesterday (or the day before). 9/1/21 CZ may get the pillows/etc next week.



I was on the Capitol Limited Tuesday night and it had new pillows/sheets/blankets. Definitely an improvement, though the blanket was still bagged as before.


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## PVD (Sep 5, 2021)

If I recall from the Amfleet refresh, the program was set up so that work could be done at multiple maintenance stations, it is not heavy maintenance/overhaul ala Beech Grove. They will pop up gradually all over the network.


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## Steve4031 (Sep 6, 2021)

There were new sheets and blankets on 449 in 4920 car yesterday. There was no other work done on the car.


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## me_little_me (Sep 6, 2021)

Steve4031 said:


> There were new sheets and blankets on 449 in 4920 car yesterday. There was no other work done on the car.


For Amtrak, that alone is a major upgrade. After all, they announced new linens so long ago, people were getting cinders from the steam engines on the old ones! Now if we can only get them to live up to all their small promises within 5 years of announcement and big ones within 15, they'll move up from a grade of 1 to a grade of 2.


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## PVD (Sep 6, 2021)

I believe the new bedding was promised previously and is somewhat separate from the "refresh"


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 6, 2021)

PVD said:


> I believe the new bedding was promised previously and is somewhat separate from the "refresh"


The blurb on Face Book from the Texas Eagle Route Manager says that the New and Improved Bedding was put onto the Eagle since it only has One Sleeper and as an enhancement for Sleeping Car Passengers since there is No Sightseer Lounge ( Why???)and Flex Meals are still being served by the One LSA trying to do 3 peoples job in the CCC!!


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## daybeers (Sep 7, 2021)

I see a refurbished SSL in this video posted on July 5th, though don't know when the trip was taken.
**


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## John Santos (Sep 7, 2021)

daybeers said:


> I see a refurbished SSL in this video posted on July 5th, though don't know when the trip was taken.
> **



The credits at the end say he left Chicago on June 29. 2021. The guy gets off for a walk on the platform in Denver and you can see an overhead sign for the "Airport" local rail, which briefly switches to a date/time display that says June 30.


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## Cal (Sep 7, 2021)

John Santos said:


> The credits at the end say he left Chicago on June 29. 2021. The guy gets off for a walk on the platform in Denver and you can see an overhead sign for the "Airport" local rail, which briefly switches to a date/time display that says June 30.


Good sleuthing!


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## Willbridge (Sep 8, 2021)

Cal said:


> Good sleuthing!


You should take a look at the Zapruder film next!


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## Acela150 (Sep 10, 2021)

I was told that today's SEA section of Train 8 had an overhauled coach car.


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## Triley (Sep 10, 2021)

Acela150 said:


> I was told that today's SEA section of Train 8 had an overhauled coach car.



Pfft. WE were told this, not just you!


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## Acela150 (Sep 10, 2021)

Triley said:


> Pfft. WE were told this, not just you!



LOL!!


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## Tlcooper93 (Nov 20, 2021)

Is there any information about where these refurbished superliners are deployed? Are there even enough to deploy more than a few?

For my Empire Builder trip in 1 month, I’m in car 731. Does this slot ever get a refurbished superliner?


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## jis (Nov 20, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Is there any information about where these refurbished superliners are deployed? Are there even enough to deploy more than a few?
> 
> For my Empire Builder trip in 1 month, I’m in car 731. Does this slot ever get a refurbished superliner?


I think they appear randomly wherever they are available. There is not regular rotation for them at present. So if when you get on your car it is a refurbished one, count yourself lucky. I doubt anyone can say before hand.

As more cars are completed they will become more common.


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## JermyZP (Nov 21, 2021)

PerRock said:


> So Amtrak has announced (a while back) that Siemens is their preferred bidder. The current new cars are from Siemens's Venture line, which in it's self is based off their Viaggio cars, and they do make a Viaggio Twin (similar to the middle picture above). With that in mind, I could see Siemens coming out with a Venture Twin design for Amtrak. The Viaggio Twin is a little too "commuter" for a Superliner replacement, but with the extra height the US gauge allows, I could see them making it more spacious.








Could Siemens Viaggio be the next sleeper car?


Recently Amtrak has picked Siemens as the Preferred bidder for new intercity rolling stock. I was thinking, what could be the next sleeper car if it was built by Siemens. I was thinking that on the east coast it would be the single level Viaggio set and on the west coast it would be the bi-level...




www.amtraktrains.com


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## JermyZP (Nov 21, 2021)

Looks like california surfliners are starting to be refurbished. New seat cushions and curtains. It looks like nothing was changed on the layout and mechanical side.


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## Acela150 (Nov 21, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Is there any information about where these refurbished superliners are deployed? Are there even enough to deploy more than a few?
> 
> For my Empire Builder trip in 1 month, I’m in car 731. Does this slot ever get a refurbished superliner?



@Triley looks like I'll have something to do! LOL! 

@Tlcooper93 at this point in time Amtrak is overhauling coaches first with the sleepers being last. I'm not sure the logic of it. At this point in time the overhaul program will be put on hold for the holiday season. This is so Amtrak can move people where they want and need to go!


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Nov 21, 2021)

20th Century Rider said:


> The major design flaw of the Superliners is the tight winding stairwell in the center of the car... making it difficult to move even small carryon luggage a balancing act. It is also a barrier for handicapped.
> 
> Double level cars everywhere else have mid or base level vestibules and a short stairwell up in tandem with a short stairwell down. The other big problem is the cooling and heating systems which have been discussed in length. Ventilation is a major issue with these cars. Many find physical discomfort with this design.
> 
> ...


Problem is this doesn't work for full ADA accessibility. For commuter service it is good enough just to provide some seats in the middle vestibule level. But for an LD train you would ideally want the disabled passenger to have access to the diners and lounges. For that reason they would probably go single level.


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## cocojacoby (Nov 21, 2021)

I came up with an alternative solution on another thread back in April. If you haven't read it:
--------------------------------
(Updated)

Retrofit or build new Superliner diners and sightseer lounge cars as follows:

Sightseer Car:

1 - Replace lower lounge with two HP bedrooms. There already is an accessible toilet right there or completely remove lounge and toilet and replace with two fully equipped HP bedrooms.

2 - Add lift to upper level.

3 - If necessary install narrower tables or seats at one end of the car to provide accessibility to the end door that faces the dinner.

4 - Add wheelchair space somewhere in the lounge on that end.

Diner Car:

1- Make both end tables at lounge car end accessible utilizing flip down seats/table tops so that they can be used by everyone if possible.

















Now a wheelchair passenger has full access to all of the passenger related amenities. Leave the coaches and sleepers alone except for converting the old H rooms into additional new Family rooms. Now you have added one or two (depending on the number of sleepers) sellable family rooms to every consist. There really is no need to have accessibility through the entire train.

Amtrak may have to ask for a waiver but this seems to provide equal and enhanced access to the most important features of the train. It doesn't cause a loss of room revenue but in fact adds to the bottom line. The Sightseer now actually generates room revenue and the H bedroom in the sleepers can be sold as a second family room.

BTW - On a recent Auto Train trip, I never saw anyone using that lower lounge.


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## joelkfla (Nov 21, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> I came up with an alternative solution on another thread back in April. If you haven't read it:
> --------------------------------
> (Updated)
> 
> ...


There is not enough room to fit 2 H-rooms down there. The H-room needs to be full car width (or nearly full width, as in Viewliners) to allow space for maneuvering a power chair.


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## Cal (Nov 21, 2021)

JermyZP said:


> Looks like california surfliners are starting to be refurbished. New seat cushions and curtains. It looks like nothing was changed on the layout and mechanical side.


Been going in to Beach Grove to be refurbished for many months now


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## me_little_me (Nov 21, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> I came up with an alternative solution on another thread back in April. If you haven't read it:
> --------------------------------
> (Updated)
> 
> ...


It's not clear at all what part of the car are the actual H rooms and where the elevator is on the lower and upper floors.


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## JermyZP (Nov 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> Been going in to Beach Grove to be refurbished for many months now



Talked to OBS and they said the exact same thing. During covid when service was cut back they sent the unused cars to Beach Grove shop to be refurbished. Also when I was walking through the train I noticed that the Superliner business car lights and some seats were replaced


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## Skylark (Nov 21, 2021)

The cosmetic upgrades look nice, from what I've seen.

My top priority now is converting all the bathrooms to the "granite" sink version. The older style baths are falling apart and poorly designed to start with.

Then my next priority would be climate control. Hopefully achieved just through thorough maintenance than replacement.

No argument here that the roomette tables are barely hanging on and often sticky...


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## joelkfla (Nov 22, 2021)

Skylark said:


> No argument here that the roomette tables are barely hanging on and often sticky...


I'm afraid they still haven't figured out how to build one that will last. I encountered a partially broken one in a VL II H-room.

I think the problem is that people will naturally lean on them to support their weight when getting up from the seat (I'm guilty), and they're just not designed to support that.


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## Cal (Nov 22, 2021)

joelkfla said:


> I'm afraid they still haven't figured out how to build one that will last. I encountered a partially broken one in a VL II H-room.
> 
> I think the problem is that people will naturally lean on them to support their weight when getting up from the seat (I'm guilty), and they're just not designed to support that.


Although the VII tray tables are much better the the old ones.


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## cocojacoby (Nov 22, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> It's not clear at all what part of the car are the actual H rooms and where the elevator is on the lower and upper floors.



The idea is to use the area below in yellow between the bulkhead and the doors on the lower level to fit in two H rooms and a lift to the upper level. (It's a rough sketch and I can't move the left wall in for some reason.)

It would seem doable but would need some exploration to see if it works with converting existing Superliners. Designing new cars this way probably would be easier. I can visualize a bunch of different ideas but it's a possible alternative concept to the existing situation.


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## Willbridge (Nov 22, 2021)

I just turned up a sidebar to this discussion: a photo of what a first-month-in-service Superliner coach seat looked like. It had that new-car smell and smiling passengers.
We'll probably never see that 1979 upholstery again. 




Photo taken October 1979 on the _Mt. Rainier._


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## Cal (Nov 22, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> I just turned up a sidebar to this discussion: a photo of what a first-month-in-service Superliner coach seat looked like. It had that new-car smell and smiling passengers.
> We'll probably never see that 1979 upholstery again.
> 
> View attachment 25627
> ...


Seats look more comfortable than they do today, why did the head-rest go BACK in time? Many airlines have headrests with that design (the little areas sticking out on either side)


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## dlagrua (Nov 22, 2021)

This refurbishment is very positive news but at the same time the shortage of Superliners on the consists could result in shorter LD trains. The inventory is down so where when and how does Amtrak purchase new Superliner equipment when no manufacturer can make them? Do they just replace them with single level Viewliners? I wouldn't mind that as sleepers seem to be in demand and judging by the fares, in short supply


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## neroden (Nov 22, 2021)

jis said:


> I think they appear randomly wherever they are available. There is not regular rotation for them at present. So if when you get on your car it is a refurbished one, count yourself lucky. I doubt anyone can say before hand.
> 
> As more cars are completed they will become more common.


Given that Amtrak is still randomly assigning Superliner I sleepers and Superliner II sleepers out of the same pool, and they don't use a separate pool for the renovated Superliner I sleepers (with the annoying touch controls) and the unrenovated Superliner Is (with normal controls) I'm quite sure they've continued the practice of just mixing them all in randomly.


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## neroden (Nov 22, 2021)

Nobody knows for sure. But there's a lot of difficulty procuring bilevel cars which pass the structural requirements at this point (after the Sumitomo / Nippon-Sharyo failure) and a lot of design issues with them (it looks like new ones will require lifts like Alaska Railroad has, and straight staircases like Pacific Surfliner has, which eats up a lot of the "extra" room). So a lot of people are guessing that it will just be single-level cars nationwide. Siemens has mostly solved the issue of wheelchair boarding at low-platform stations with car-mounted lifts at one of two vestibules on the new cars, and it seems to work -- though in the long run, we may see more platforms being raised.

A uniform single-level fleet would have some advantages. First of all, economies of scale for acquisition and maintenance. 

Other things could be imagined: it would be kind of cool if they could switch a sleeper car at Chicago to be a through car from NY to LA (three nights, one seat ride) -- or for that matter the same via New Orleans -- and it becomes plausible.


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## Willbridge (Nov 22, 2021)

neroden said:


> Nobody knows for sure. But there's a lot of difficulty procuring bilevel cars which pass the structural requirements at this point (after the Sumitomo / Nippon-Sharyo failure) and a lot of design issues with them (it looks like new ones will require lifts like Alaska Railroad has, and straight staircases like Pacific Surfliner has, which eats up a lot of the "extra" room). So a lot of people are guessing that it will just be single-level cars nationwide. Siemens has mostly solved the issue of wheelchair boarding at low-platform stations with car-mounted lifts at one of two vestibules on the new cars, and it seems to work -- though in the long run, we may see more platforms being raised.
> 
> A uniform single-level fleet would have some advantages. First of all, economies of scale for acquisition and maintenance.
> 
> Other things could be imagined: it would be kind of cool if they could switch a sleeper car at Chicago to be a through car from NY to LA (three nights, one seat ride) -- or for that matter the same via New Orleans -- and it becomes plausible.


Regarding through east-west cars my father complained about all the streamlined cars in the country having traps to fool with (watch your fingers!) just in case they went into the Northeast. And my grandfathers' generation complained about having to replace all the wooden coaches just in case they went into New York City. It would be great if those routings actually happen someday to warrant the end of the Superliners. More likely is for management to use the compatibility argument against the high cars and then later forget about east-west through routes.


----------

