# Commuter Rail around Tampa proposed



## jis (Dec 15, 2020)

Top solution to begin to close regional inequities? Improve transportation in Tampa Bay


Better transit access and service will narrow income gaps, reduce the poverty level, improve economic mobility, and enhance Tampa Bay’s economic competitiveness, says a report by the USF Muma College of Business Center for Analytics and Creativity.




www.83degreesmedia.com


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## Shawn Ryu (Mar 17, 2021)

I dunno, to me commuter rails are useless without some kind of rail service to get around the city.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 22, 2021)

The story link mentioned multiple transportation options for this area. Heavy and light rail, Bus rapid lanes, higher frequency of bus, and more. General article for better options than own multiple automotive.


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## jiml (Mar 22, 2021)

I know Tampa reasonably well and don't see heavy rail as an option without a lot of construction or restoration. There are plenty of tracks - they just don't go where needed for commuters. For example, Oldsmar is a "bedroom community", but the track from there meanders through various industries before terminating at 16th St. in St. Pete's. The route saw one or two CSX locals a week over track in varying shape.


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## jis (Mar 22, 2021)

The fixed guideway component of the vision requires quite a bit of new constructions. Some can use existing ROWs, others may have to be elevated in the style used in most Asian cities these days.


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## trainman74 (Mar 23, 2021)

I rode on a public demonstration, circa 1997, of potential commuter rail service on the line through South Tampa (basically, the yellow diagonal line along the Selmon Expressway on the map above) -- involving a Siemens RegioSprinter and temporary platforms. Obviously, nothing came of that.


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## bms (Apr 12, 2021)

I fear that Tampa has been so poorly planned for the last 50 years, that there isn't enough density in specific locations to support commuter rail. Everyone just seems to be randomly spread out in this 30 mile area of six-lane stroads.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 13, 2021)

bms said:


> I fear that Tampa has been so poorly planned for the last 50 years, that there isn't enough density in specific locations to support commuter rail. Everyone just seems to be randomly spread out in this 30 mile area of six-lane stroads.


If any plan includes transit-oriented development around the stations, it could eventually change the character of the Tampa metro area, which is probably what needs to happen.


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## jruff001 (Apr 13, 2021)

Commuter rail will not happen in the Tampa Bay area in my lifetime (I will be 53 this year). The area remains in the dark ages when it comes to public transportation, even though it is clearly the areas Achilles' Heel and lack of it will prevent the area from becoming a first class metropolitan area.

To update the article in the original post, the 1% Hillsborough County transit sales tax referenced as being "in limbo" has now not only been found to be illegal by the Florida Supreme Court, but it will be refunded (somehow) and, even though the tax is now officially dead, some enlightened citizens in the area are contemplating still more legal action, claiming "damages." So the refund might end up going to legal fees.

You can read the sad details here.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 13, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> If any plan includes transit-oriented development around the stations, it could eventually change the character of the Tampa metro area, which is probably what needs to happen.


They got it to work in LA and Dallas, so it's possible anywhere!


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## VentureForth (May 13, 2021)

Just trying to wrap my head around $234M for a mere 1.3 miles of streetcar extension.


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## cirdan (May 13, 2021)

bms said:


> I fear that Tampa has been so poorly planned for the last 50 years, that there isn't enough density in specific locations to support commuter rail. Everyone just seems to be randomly spread out in this 30 mile area of six-lane stroads.


True maybe.

But 20 years ago you could have said that of, say, Houston.

Well, it's still true today. But the metro rail system is still mostly a success for the places it does serve.


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## VentureForth (May 13, 2021)

The biggest issue that I see is that most commuter lines are built on top of existing freight infrastructure which is generally NOT where people [who want to and can support commuter rail] live.


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## Bob Dylan (May 13, 2021)

VentureForth said:


> The biggest issue that I see is that most commuter lines are built on top of existing freight infrastructure which is generally NOT where people [who want to and can support commuter rail] live.


Sure true here in Austin!


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## cirdan (May 14, 2021)

VentureForth said:


> The biggest issue that I see is that most commuter lines are built on top of existing freight infrastructure which is generally NOT where people [who want to and can support commuter rail] live.



The problem with all new build is that lines tend to meander because there are typically innumerable constraints that need to be worked around. This leads to lots of speed restrictions, makes the line slow, and thus not very competitive.

Placing them on abandoned freight ROW on the other hand means nice straight alignments and consistently high speeds, but often at the cost of not actually going to the places where they are most needed.

IMHO the best solution is thus a compromise. Use old freight ROW as the backbone and then build branches or deviations to go to the places where the service is most needed.


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## jruff001 (May 16, 2021)

cirdan said:


> The problem with all new build is that lines tend to meander because there are typically innumerable constraints that need to be worked around. This leads to lots of speed restrictions, makes the line slow, and thus not very competitive.
> 
> Placing them on abandoned freight ROW on the other hand means nice straight alignments and consistently high speeds, but often at the cost of not actually going to the places where they are most needed.
> 
> IMHO the best solution is thus a compromise. Use old freight ROW as the backbone and then build branches or deviations to go to the places where the service is most needed.


But that's why the new build lines meander - because they are more densely developed, the places where the service is most needed are also the places that have the innumerable constraints that have to be worked around, leading to non-competitive services.


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## VentureForth (May 18, 2021)

Bob Dylan said:


> They got it to work in LA and Dallas, so it's possible anywhere!


The problem with Dallas is that they underestimated it's potential and built without regard to accommodate growth. They just can't handle any longer trains at all. Ever. And they are already at minimum headways during busy times where most of the lines converge downtown.


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## dlagrua (May 18, 2021)

Shawn Ryu said:


> I dunno, to me commuter rails are useless without some kind of rail service to get around the city.


Tampa does have a trolley service although limited that could be expanded to provide around the city transportation. There are also a few bus routes in that city


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## Tlcooper93 (May 19, 2021)

Shawn Ryu said:


> I dunno, to me commuter rails are useless without some kind of rail service to get around the city.



If it all converges on an inter-modal station with the TECO streetcar and some BRT, it could be useful!
Would this commuter line connect to Tampa Union Station and Amtrak?



jruff001 said:


> But that's why the new build lines meander - because they are more densely developed, the places where the service is most needed are also the places that have the innumerable constraints that have to be worked around, leading to non-competitive services.



Its a good opportunity for Transit oriented development. May help draw fresh and driven population growth.


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## jruff001 (May 19, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Its a good opportunity for Transit oriented development. May help draw fresh and driven population growth.


Agreed!

But if we are talking the Tampa Bay area, it is hard for me to see that happening. There really aren't any empty areas. It is all sprawl from the I-75 corridor to the Gulf Coast. Not enough density for commuter rail to make sense, but enough to make a commuter rail system on new lines with TOD nodes pretty much impossible, financially and politically.


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## Tlcooper93 (May 19, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Agreed!
> 
> But if we are talking the Tampa Bay area, it is hard for me to see that happening. There really aren't any empty areas. It is all sprawl from the I-75 corridor to the Gulf Coast. Not enough density for commuter rail to make sense, but enough to make a commuter rail system on new lines with TOD nodes pretty much impossible, financially and politically.




Ahh, I see. I've never been to Tampa, but I guess it may be a lost cause at least for the immediate (15yr) future. Perhaps once Brightline is up and running in its full glory, Tampa, the rest of FL and the country may have an enlightenment. Proof of concept can be powerful.


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## cirdan (May 19, 2021)

VentureForth said:


> The problem with Dallas is that they underestimated it's potential and built without regard to accommodate growth. They just can't handle any longer trains at all. Ever. And they are already at minimum headways during busy times where most of the lines converge downtown.



AFAIK they are planning (or maybe already building?) a second cross-downtown line which will definitely take some of the pressure off the first.

I don't really see why they can't run longer trains. They would have to extend some platforms but nothing that can't be fixed without the right sort of vision and will.

IMHO one of the problems in Dallas is not capacity of the lines but capacity of the junctions. Maybe these could do with some tweaking so trains can move faster and so de-block the line.


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## McIntyre2K7 (May 19, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Agreed!
> 
> But if we are talking the Tampa Bay area, it is hard for me to see that happening. There really aren't any empty areas. It is all sprawl from the I-75 corridor to the Gulf Coast. Not enough density for commuter rail to make sense, but enough to make a commuter rail system on new lines with TOD nodes pretty much impossible, financially and politically.




Not so fast. I think it's possible to make it work in Tampa Bay Area. Now this is something I've been working on. This is a mix of commuter rail and BRT with one light rail line from Wesley Chapel to the USF area. I wanted to expand Tampa Union Station so the road to the north was removed. I'm not finished with it yet as the local system hasn't released the updated for the TDP for 2021. Also the Florida Supreme Court struck down the penny sales tax increase from 2018. One of the county commissioners was upset as they have no control over how the funds were distributed as it was required that funds were allocated to exact areas. The county as well as the three cities would split the about 59 percent of the revenue, the local transit agency would get 40% and the remaining 1% would go to the regional transportation planning commission. 

Here is map of what I made below. 









Tampa Bay Transit 2040 - Google My Maps


Tampa Bay Transit 2040




www.google.com






It doesn't expand to the Downtown St Pete Area. However if the Rays do decide to leave Tropicana field would be an excellent place for TOD.


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## Tlcooper93 (May 19, 2021)

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Not so fast. I think it's possible to make it work in Tampa Bay Area. Now this is something I've been working on. This is a mix of commuter rail and BRT with one light rail line from Wesley Chapel to the USF area. I wanted to expand Tampa Union Station so the road to the north was removed. I'm not finished with it yet as the local system hasn't released the updated for the TDP for 2021. Also the Florida Supreme Court struck down the penny sales tax increase from 2018. One of the county commissioners was upset as they have no control over how the funds were distributed as it was required that funds were allocated to exact areas. The county as well as the three cities would split the about 59 percent of the revenue, the local transit agency would get 40% and the remaining 1% would go to the regional transportation planning commission.
> 
> Here is map of what I made below.
> 
> ...



Wow, this is pretty cool. Seems pretty well thought out! What are the chances of this sort of vision happening?


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## VentureForth (May 19, 2021)

cirdan said:


> AFAIK they are planning (or maybe already building?) a second cross-downtown line which will definitely take some of the pressure off the first.
> 
> I don't really see why they can't run longer trains. They would have to extend some platforms but nothing that can't be fixed without the right sort of vision and will.
> 
> IMHO one of the problems in Dallas is not capacity of the lines but capacity of the junctions. Maybe these could do with some tweaking so trains can move faster and so de-block the line.


I don't think a 4th articulated set would fit at the downtown stations without blocking intersections, not to mention the elevated stations that are pretty much set in stone, or concrete at least.

WOW! I never saw anything about the D2 project! This is incredible! Unfortunately, the Orange and Green lines will come off ALL the existing stations completely without a cross platform transfer available.

Sorry - didn't mean to derail from Tampa.


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## McIntyre2K7 (May 19, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Wow, this is pretty cool. Seems pretty well thought out! What are the chances of this sort of vision happening?



I don't think this happens until we get the majority of voters to approve it. The reason I went with this is we should use the rails that we already have. I have one commuter rail line from Tampa up to Brooksville. I think that would be a good start. I usually have people talk about sprawl but I tell them how underfunded transit is in just Hillsborough County, where Tampa is located. 

There is one line I did extend from Tampa to Lakeland. To be honest I think there's a chance that Lakeland doesn't get a stop from Brightline when they expand to Tampa. It sucks because the original plans in 2009 had a stop there. So what I think would be a perfect alternative is to have the line go from Tampa Union Station to Lakeland and then extend the SunRail to Lakeland as well. (note this doesn't work with the help of CSX).


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## jruff001 (May 19, 2021)

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Not so fast. I think it's possible to make it work in Tampa Bay Area. Now this is something I've been working on. This is a mix of commuter rail and BRT with one light rail line from Wesley Chapel to the USF area. I wanted to expand Tampa Union Station so the road to the north was removed. I'm not finished with it yet as the local system hasn't released the updated for the TDP for 2021. Also the Florida Supreme Court struck down the penny sales tax increase from 2018. One of the county commissioners was upset as they have no control over how the funds were distributed as it was required that funds were allocated to exact areas. The county as well as the three cities would split the about 59 percent of the revenue, the local transit agency would get 40% and the remaining 1% would go to the regional transportation planning commission.
> 
> Here is map of what I made below.
> 
> ...


Very cool!

I'd expand the Silver Line from Clearwater to DTSP through Largo and Pinellas Park. Lots of people in that corridor and there is already a RoW (that is not the Pinellas Trail).

Or (this is what is in my head / on my back-of-the-napkin diagrams): A line from Carillon to Clearwater with a Y-design centered on Carillon, giving three options with Carillon as a transfer point in addition to serving the office parks there: Tampa - Carillon - SP; SP - Carillon - Clearwater; and Clearwater - Carillon - Tampa.


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## McIntyre2K7 (May 19, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Very cool!
> 
> I'd expand the Silver Line from Clearwater to DTSP through Largo and Pinellas Park. Lots of people in that corridor and there is already a RoW (that is not the Pinellas Trail).
> 
> Or (this is what is in my head / on my back-of-the-napkin diagrams): A line from Carillon to Clearwater with a Y-design centered on Carillon, giving three options with Carillon as a transfer point in addition to serving the office parks there: Tampa - Carillon - SP; SP - Carillon - Clearwater; and Clearwater - Carillon - Tampa.



So I had a separate line from Clearwater to DTSP however I think CSX removed the tracks leading up to the Trop. Now if the Rays leave St. Pete that would be the perfect place to add a new station. I guess a one seat trip from DTSP to central Tampa could work. 

I think I left the Carillon area off because there's already express bus service that runs from Pinellas Park to Tampa International Airport and to Downtown Tampa. I think they are planning to add express BRT service as well.


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## west point (May 19, 2021)

What is needed but will never happen is a rail bridge over the bay to St. Pete.


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## McIntyre2K7 (May 19, 2021)

west point said:


> What is needed but will never happen is a rail bridge over the bay to St. Pete.



Last time I checked they are adding lanes for light rail. It's apart of the new construction of the Howard Frankland Bridge that should end in 4 years.


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## jruff001 (May 20, 2021)

McIntyre2K7 said:


> Last time I checked they are adding lanes for light rail. It's apart of the new construction of the Howard Frankland Bridge that should end in 4 years.


I read this about the project too. Plus the I-275 rebuild through West Tampa a few years ago left a huge median for potential rail some day. So at least SOMEone is thinking ahead.


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