# Coast Starlight Suspension Continues



## PRR 60 (Jan 31, 2008)

From Amtrak:



> January 31, 20082:00 pm PST
> 
> Due to massive mudslides over railroad tracks north of Chemult, Oregon on January 19, the Amtrak Coast Starlight service continues through February 15, with no alternate transportation provided. The Union Pacific Railroad has suspended all railroad traffic through the area.
> 
> ...


The full service alert can be found HERE.


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## mikeyas (Jan 31, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> From Amtrak:
> 
> 
> > January 31, 20082:00 pm PST
> ...


Darn. I've had my reservations for months...Feb. 13. Guess I'll be canceling them now.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 31, 2008)

Is this how it was with the Sunset? Can we be expecting this to be permanent? Can we go and pretend Union Pacific was Guy Fawkes and that tomorrow is Guy Fawkes day?


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## ceblack (Feb 1, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Is this how it was with the Sunset? Can we be expecting this to be permanent?


I don't think we have to worry about the Coast Starlight following the path of the Sunset east of New Orleans. I believe Amtrak remained relatively silent on the return of the Sunset for quite some time after the tracks in the affected area were repaired. This seems to be more a case of Union Pacific still getting their arms around how long it is going to take to move mountains (or at least a big portion of one).

Besides, Amtrak wouldn't cancel the Starlight... it's long been one of their most popular trains and they have trumpeted the upcoming relaunch. Cancelling would be a completely boneheaded and shortsighted management decision. Um... Amtrak's never made any of those, right?

Clark


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 1, 2008)

Amtrak has made more of those, in sum, than the other kind. Hence my question.


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## maddy6422 (Feb 1, 2008)

AND BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!!!


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## mercedeslove (Feb 1, 2008)

so I am taking this train in March, like march 10th. so I go ahead and cancel this and book something else?


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## yarrow (Feb 1, 2008)

mercedeslove said:


> so I am taking this train in March, like march 10th. so I go ahead and cancel this and book something else?


you may want to read the 2/1 urpa newsletter posted in pinned topics at the top of amtrak rail discussion. shows how much mr kummant cares about your reservation.


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## wayman (Feb 1, 2008)

yarrow said:


> you may want to read the 2/1 urpa newsletter posted in pinned topics at the top of amtrak rail discussion. shows how much mr kummant cares about your reservation.


Skimming recent URPA newsletters (haven't made it to 2/1 yet), I came across this paragraph by Richardson. If this is accurate, it explains an awful lot of "bad decisions" Amtrak has made in the past, well, many years by changing the definitions of "bad" and "good". But I don't know what Richardson's source for this was, nor exactly where he falls on the credible-to-crackpot scale (he seems to be on both ends of it simultaneously sometimes).

_There is one very important point to remember about the Amtrak_

_managers who made the decision to annul the Starlight. Amtrak managers_

_and employees are evaluated and rated based on how much money they save_

_in expenses for the company. They are not evaluated on how much money_

_they make for the company. Therefore, from a personal standpoint for_

_these managers making decisions, any trains they deem to annul for any_

_reason, is considered a good move. Any train that is kept moving, no_

_matter how much money it makes, has no impact on their personal_

_performance ratings (which impact promotions, raises, bonuses, etc.)._

_Amtrak managers have a personal motivation to cancel trains, not keep_

_them running._

True? False? Uncertain?


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## PRR 60 (Feb 1, 2008)

mercedeslove said:


> so I am taking this train in March, like march 10th. so I go ahead and cancel this and book something else?


I would consider March 10 a pretty good bet. The Union Pacific has been hampered in the clean up and reconstruction of the line by some pretty awful weather. If things dry out a bit they will be able to get in there and stabize the slope and put things back together. This slide has severed a major UP freight route, so be assured that the railroad is second to none in the desire to get the line reopened.


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## Cascadia (Feb 1, 2008)

I might be wrong about this, but isn't the Coast Starlight route mostly funded by California State Department of Transporation money? As far as any permanent cancellation of the route goes, wouldn't the state of California have more to say about it than Amtrak? I don't think they will permanently let the Coast Starlight go, but boy I wish they could get the southern portion of the route up and running before they get the whole thing back in order!

We are looking at this from the passenger's point of view, and of course it's atrocious, but we should keep in mind too, that the employees of this line are all out of work! This is super hard on them, I was told they were scrambling to get them some hours by doing all their mandatory training sessions, etc, but that now they are eating all their vacation hours, that will be gone fast, they are in trouble.

I'm really sorry they can't arrange some kind of makeshift to accomodate people, a bus bridge, a "stub line", something other than just a flat cancellation, it seems like a cop out and is hurting a lot of people. We see on the forum how many people come from Europe, Australia, etc., just to ride the trains, see the country, of course any time you rely on public transportation you have to be flexible and expect the unexpected, this is a case of Mother Nature taking charge with that landslide, but I wish Amtrak could "expect the unexpected" too and be a little more prepared to roll with the punches instead of rolling over and playing dead!


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## wayman (Feb 1, 2008)

Cascadia said:


> I might be wrong about this, but isn't the Coast Starlight route mostly funded by California State Department of Transporation money? As far as any permanent cancellation of the route goes, wouldn't the state of California have more to say about it than Amtrak? I don't think they will permanently let the Coast Starlight go, but boy I wish they could get the southern portion of the route up and running before they get the whole thing back in order!


Someone who knows the California routes better than I do will doubtless correct me, but the Winter timetable seems to say that Cal-DOT pays heavily for the San Juaquins, Capitol Corridor, and Pacific Surfliner, but not any of the interstate trains. Though the California Rail Pass is usable on the CS as far as Dunsmuir, so maybe that part does receive some state funding that isn't specifically mentioned in the timetable?


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## AlanB (Feb 1, 2008)

wayman said:


> Cascadia said:
> 
> 
> > I might be wrong about this, but isn't the Coast Starlight route mostly funded by California State Department of Transporation money? As far as any permanent cancellation of the route goes, wouldn't the state of California have more to say about it than Amtrak? I don't think they will permanently let the Coast Starlight go, but boy I wish they could get the southern portion of the route up and running before they get the whole thing back in order!
> ...


California does not provide any funding for the Coast Starlight. They only help to fund the Surfliner's, Capital Corridor, and the San Juaquins.

That said, I'm pretty sure that California, as well as the states of Oregon and Washington would have a whole lot to say if Amtrak tried to permanently cancel the Coast Starlight. And it would cast some major doubt on the ability of the current top layer of Amtrak management if they were to cancel the train permanently, after just announcing the improvements for this train.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 1, 2008)

AlanB said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > Cascadia said:
> ...


The Coast Starlight is not being permenantly cancelled. When the line across the Cascades reopens, the Starlight will resume service (subject to FRA clearance for passenger service following a landslide).


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## mercedeslove (Feb 1, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> mercedeslove said:
> 
> 
> > so I am taking this train in March, like march 10th. so I go ahead and cancel this and book something else?
> ...



so then I should cancel my trip on that train then and just go with CHI to LAX instead. Or wait until Feb 15th and see?


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## AlanB (Feb 1, 2008)

mercedeslove said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > mercedeslove said:
> ...


If you're not riding the CS until the 10th of March, I would not pull the trigger yet and cancel things. The odds are in your favor that they'll have the line up and running by then. I would at least wait until mid-February and the next update, before I start to consider changing things.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 1, 2008)

For those who may wonder why it is taking so long to clear a mud slide, here is a link to a gallery of photos taken by one of the contractors on the site. A Union Pacific spokesman has estimated that 2.5 million cubic yards of material has to be removed from the line. To put that in perspective, a highway dump truck holds about 20 cubic yards of material.

Photo Gallery


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## frj1983 (Feb 1, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> For those who may wonder why it is taking so long to clear a mud slide, here is a link to a gallery of photos taken by one of the contractors on the site. A Union Pacific spokesman has estimated that 2.5 million cubic yards of material has to be removed from the line. To put that in perspective, a highway dump truck holds about 20 cubic yards of material.
> Photo Gallery


Thanks for the photos PRR60!

That's a lot of dirt, snow, rocks, etc. and even these pictures do not give you a sense of scale!

I wonder how much this will cost UP to clean up?


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## maddy6422 (Feb 1, 2008)

Good pics though not for those of us who have to alter plans!

Thanks for the updates people at least it`s helping us make our mind up what to do Can`t see it clearing enough to get on the train on the 17th so planning to look at alternatives If they do clear it then great an added bonus as we didn`t want to miss that part of the trip. If we can`t use the train its not as if the States is so backward we won`t get alternative options to ensure our trip is as we want it!

Maddy


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## DesertRat (Feb 1, 2008)

Phew that's a lot of big trees to clear. I was up in the mountains a couple of years ago and got to watch a tree-felling operation that had traffic stopped on the two-lane road. That tree came down with a lot of noise of course, then the crew ran up to it with some of the biggest chainsaws I've ever seen.

That was during summer weather. Can't imagine how difficult it must be to do cut trees in cold, hard weather.


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## tto (Feb 3, 2008)

I was planning to take the Coast Starlight from Seattle to Oakland (San Francisco) on March 11 and from Oakland to LA on March 17. I hope they can fix the problem before March.


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## nsaspook (Feb 9, 2008)

tto said:


> I was planning to take the Coast Starlight from Seattle to Oakland (San Francisco) on March 11 and from Oakland to LA on March 17. I hope they can fix the problem before March.


I hope they can clear it, but the predictions are for a bad spring (flooding) from snow melt.

http://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/snow/snow.cgi

I hope we don't get a 1996 like event. http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2008/...3a442717951.txt


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## George Harris (Feb 9, 2008)

Suggest people take a look at this letter on the UPRR web site:

http://www.uprr.com/customers/updates/2008/0201.shtml

Make it a point to click on all the pictures.

This is a letter to shippers dated February 1, 2008 from a Mr. jack Koraleski.

To say that the location is remote and the terrain rugged is putting it mildly.

Look at the pictures with the letter and you will get some idea of the terrain and the working conditions being endured to clear the slide.

One picture shows the slide as being located between mileposts 561 and 562. This location is near the middle of the long grade descending from Cascade Summit (mp 536.8) to Oakridge (mp 580.5) It takes over two pages in the 2000 ETT that I have to cover operation on this section. The speed limit on most of this segment is 33 mph for passenger trains, 30 miles southbound (upgrade) and 25 mph northbound (downgrade) for freight trains, and there are a few pieces with lower speed limits.

If you look at this area on topozone you will see that in this area the railroad is essentially a long scratch that zig-zags up a mountain side to gain altitude.


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## mercedeslove (Feb 9, 2008)

George Harris said:


> Suggest people take a look at this letter on the UPRR web site:http://www.uprr.com/customers/updates/2008/0201.shtml
> 
> Make it a point to click on all the pictures.
> 
> ...



I guess I should cancel my trip on the EB that was going to match up with the CS and take me to LAX and just got from CHI to LAX on March 8th. Maybe I can do the EB to CS something time.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 9, 2008)

Make back up plans. Cancel the one that doesn't work.


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## sweet tea (Feb 10, 2008)

> an estimated 153,000 truckloads of debris – imagine a debris field equivalent in volume to the size of a football field and the height of the Sears Tower.


WOW. :blink:


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 10, 2008)

Why can't they just use some mining bulldozers to shove the whole thing over the side?


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## Trogdor (Feb 10, 2008)

A report I read elsewhere on the internet suggests the opening could be late March to late April.

Sure would suck to have Amtrak delay the relaunch of the revamped Coast Starlight because of this, but it's certainly a possibility.


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## mercedeslove (Feb 10, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Make back up plans. Cancel the one that doesn't work.



did that today. going from CHI right into LAX.


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## George Harris (Feb 11, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why can't they just use some mining bulldozers to shove the whole thing over the side?


Two things, one practical and the other regulatory.

1. Practical: there is a stream at the bottom and the railroad line in the valley. If they jsut shove it over, it will cause an entirely different set of problems. Even wihout any environmental regulation, you must find a place to put what has slid down the hill, and secondly a way to stabilize what remains.

2. Environmental Regulation: You can not just dump material into a stream or in a manner than allows runoff of soils into a stream. A very thorough method of controlling runoff to eliminate sediment must be used in the cleanup process.


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## VentureForth (Feb 11, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> The Coast Starlight is not being permenantly cancelled. When the line across the Cascades reopens, the Starlight will resume service (subject to FRA clearance for passenger service following a landslide).


Yeah - that's what they STILL say about the Sunset! Look out for excuses like "The Dunsmuir, CA station is not ADA accessible, so therefore we cannot anticipate a return to service date."


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## PRR 60 (Feb 11, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why can't they just use some mining bulldozers to shove the whole thing over the side?


Because they don't just have to move soil, they have to re-stabilize an entire mountainside. The old trackbed is gone. It slid down the mountain with the landslide. They have to cut a new roadbed into the mountain without having the mountain come down on top of them. It is not an easy job and requires more than simply pushing soil around. Some dry weather would sure help.


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## WICT106 (Feb 11, 2008)

What considerations or issues must a civil engineer address in order to bore a tunnel through the area? Assuming you have the finances and permits, of course. Would a tunnel at the location of this landslide be feasible ?

Would a tunnel eliminate the requirement for the switch backs in the area ? would it result in increased speeds, and higher line capacity?


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## Goduckies (Feb 11, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > Why can't they just use some mining bulldozers to shove the whole thing over the side?
> ...


LOL no rain in Eugene, Good luck!!

It has been nasty this year that is for sure.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 11, 2008)

What are the chances Amtrak is going to simply kill the Starlight?


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## PRR 60 (Feb 12, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> What are the chances Amtrak is going to simply kill the Starlight?


Zero. The Starlight is safe.


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## George Harris (Feb 12, 2008)

WICT106 said:


> What considerations or issues must a civil engineer address in order to bore a tunnel through the area? Assuming you have the finances and permits, of course. Would a tunnel at the location of this landslide be feasible ?
> Would a tunnel eliminate the requirement for the switch backs in the area ? would it result in increased speeds, and higher line capacity?


This does not look like good tunneling ground. the line already has a number of short tunnels. The slide appears to be in a steep valley area, so straighteing the line out would not likely get it out of a tunnel in this location. A bridge might be worthy of consideration, but bridges on steep hillsides require difficult and expensive foundations and can also go sliding down the hill.

This is a one sided hill, not a crest from both directions, so the double horseshoe curve alignment cannot be done away with using a long tunnel. South of the aptly named Cascade Summit, the railroad runs for several miles along the shore of Lake Odell with the tracks at an elevation of around 4800 feet. In fact, it does not get below 4700 feet elevation until south of Chemult, which is over 30 miles south of Cascade Summit.

North of Cascade Summit siding, the line goes through an approximately 1/2 mile long tunnel that appears to be the true highest piont, and then begins dropping. At the north end of the tunnel is an elevation on the topo shown as 4775 feet, presumably at track level. By Abernathy siding, about 2 miles beyond the tunnel the elevation is 4600 feet and the mountainside running begins in earnest. At Cruzatte siding, another 4 miles there is an elevation tic that says 4072 feet, and we have gone through two or three short tunnels. About a mile beyond Cruzatte there is a tunnel abou 1/2 mile long that appears to have 3 curves in it, and it looks to be trying to stay in the mountain to avoid being on a very steep hillside. Beyond this tunnel there are sharp curves, several short tunnels and a few snow sheds shown on the topo. About another 3 miles and we are at an elevation of about 3780 feet. At this point, look down in the bottom of the valley and you can see the lower horseshoe curve in the valley. the elevation there is marked as 2616 feet at the bridge over Salt Creek. This point is just north of Heather Siding, so even though only about 1 mile in a straight line, it is about 14 miles by the railroad and ove 1100 feet lower. Even when you get there you are not yet to the bottom of the grade. Next we get to Frazier siding, which is about one mile south of the slide area. After you get past Farizer siding, there are two short tunnels. If you look down the mountain between them you can see Wicopee Siding, abut 9 miles along the track but only about 1000 feet sideways and 600 feet straight down.

I could go on, but it is bedtime. I trust you are getting the picture. The grade continues on steeply to Oakridge, at elevation 1200 feet and 30 miles by rail beyond Frazier. After Oakridge, the railroad continues downgrde, just not as steepely.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Feb 12, 2008)

Is it possible for UP to construct an alternative grade through the area to keep this from happening again? I know some railroads are trying to build new grades now that technology has advanced to the point that routes that were unfavorable in the past are now a better choice than the existing grade.


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## George Harris (Feb 12, 2008)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> Is it possible for UP to construct an alternative grade through the area to keep this from happening again? I know some railroads are trying to build new grades now that technology has advanced to the point that routes that were unfavorable in the past are now a better choice than the existing grade.


This is the line built in the 1920's to bypass the Siskyou grades. It would take a lot of study to provide a half-way answer to your question. I would really doubt that you could do much better in general location. The railroad location engineers of the past were generally very good at what they did. Earthmoving in the 1920's was still a fairly labor intensive operation, but it was a long way beyond the pick and shovel work of the late 19th century.


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## D.P. Roberts (Feb 12, 2008)

rmadisonwi said:


> A report I read elsewhere on the internet suggests the opening could be late March to late April.



Link?

Does anyone have an update from UP on this? I would think after 3 weeks or so they'd have an idea of what they're up against, and a reasonable forecast.


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## George Harris (Feb 12, 2008)

D.P. Roberts said:


> rmadisonwi said:
> 
> 
> > A report I read elsewhere on the internet suggests the opening could be late March to late April.
> ...


Probably no reasonable forecast yet. Nothin g new on their web site. This is the high Sierra, access is difficult, the snow is still there, weather is uncertain, the ground is likely still moving, and nothing is stable. UP far more than Amtrak desparately want this line back in service.


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## George Harris (Feb 12, 2008)

Found on another web site: Supposed to be posted by a union official but have no idea which union. I have deleted all names and crafts.



> Yesterday the Union Pacific Railroad informed Amtrak that the Frazier slide will likely keep the line blocked until at least late March. Meanwhile, Union Pacific <craft a> <wwwww> - UNOFFICIALLY - sent out an email stating the line may not reopen until April 26th. Regardless of what actually takes place, we now know the cleanup efforts will go on much longer than expected. Up until this point, the Corporation has kept everybody working, but things may change in the coming weeks. Brother <xxxxx> and I plan to meet with management within the next few days in the hopes of developing a short term solution for work in Portland that will preserve the greatest number of <craft b> jobs. We will also have at least one special Union meeting in Portland next week, date and time still to be determined.
> 
> It is still unclear whether Amtrak will run a Seattle to Portland and/or Eugene section of the Coast Starlight during this line closure south of Eugene. The Organization, through both our State and National Legislative Offices, as well as our General Committee, will continue to push for reinstatement of that service. The Oregon and Washington Passenger Rail advocacy groups are also working hard to convince Amtrak to operate a Seattle to Eugene section of the Starlight during this event.
> 
> ...


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## tto (Feb 13, 2008)

I bought a North America Rail Pass. I expected to be able to travel between Seattle to San Francisco (Oakland) by train. Now there's no train service between these two cities on my travel date (March 11). So I need to pay for the cost for alternative transportation myself? I was told there's a Thruway bus, but does it run all the way to San Francisco? :unsure:


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## yarrow (Feb 13, 2008)

tto said:


> I bought a North America Rail Pass. I expected to be able to travel between Seattle to San Francisco (Oakland) by train. Now there's no train service between these two cities on my travel date (March 11). So I need to pay for the cost for alternative transportation myself? I was told there's a Thruway bus, but does it run all the way to San Francisco? :unsure:


there is no amtrak transportation south of eugene and north of sacramento other than, i believe, a bus which goes as far north as medford, oregon from sacramento and doesn't connect with anything on the north end. buy into the fact that amtrak doesn't care about you


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 13, 2008)

No. I'd advise taking the method I would, which is Empire Builder -> Chi, then take the Zephyr to EMY. If you want to add to the experience some, you could take the EB from Portland and take the Cascades to that location. We all wish Amtrak would be more responsible about that. I know this method adds 4-5 days to your trip, but... I don't know what else to suggest.


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## John Bredin (Feb 13, 2008)

yarrow said:


> buy into the fact that amtrak doesn't care about you


I'm getting a little tired of this "Amtrak doesn't care" meme, not from you in particular but generally on various boards I read. Amtrak is a company on a shoestring, under severe pressure from The Powers That Be to cut costs, CUT COSTS, *CUT COSTS*! (That's not me talking, but imitating TPTB.  )

There's no viable alternate rail route to the destroyed portion of the Coast Starlight route. From what I've read and seen in news coverage, I don't think "destroyed" is an exaggeration. The only other route would involve creeping at ungodly slow speed along an incredibly windy track that is so unviable for *freight* service -- never mind passenger trains -- that the railroad that owns it had announced the termination of service on that route before the CS landslide occurred.

As to operating a bus bridge, it's terribly easy for us armchair rail "experts" on the Web to say that Amtrak should bus the gap, but a lot harder to pay for it. Chartering a fleet of buses (one bus will hardly do!) for an undefined period of at least several weeks is damned expensive.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 13, 2008)

John Bredin said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > buy into the fact that amtrak doesn't care about you
> ...


I agree. It is easy for those who have no responsibility for the economic operation of Amtrak to suggest that Amtrak should run the train no matter what. But, Amtrak does not operate in a fantasy land. Cost is an issue.
Besides the direct cost of the buses, the train operation would also be much more expensive since the lay-overs would require an additional trainset and crew. And I bet ridership would still be impacted by having a bus ride in the middle of the trip. Other than a die-hard railfan, why would someone want to pay Sleeper costs to ride a train that would require moving out of a room, riding a bus, and then either move back into another room or ride coach on the north stub. Bottom line: costs would be way up, and revenue would be lost anyway. Amtrak had to make a business decision and they decided the considerable cost of maintaining a patched-together, unattractive service was not worth the revenue it would protect. I happen to think is was a responsible decision.

Along with passenger and other revenue, Amtrak gets a set subsidy and budgets expenses accordingly. The Federal subsidy this year will not be increased because of the mudslide. Any added costs associated with running an inefficient train - bus - train operation would have to come from some other Amtrak operation. So, simply put, what other Amtrak service should be reduced or curtailed to pay for a Starlight bus bridge? How would those cuts impact ridership?


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## VentureForth (Feb 13, 2008)

tto said:


> I bought a North America Rail Pass. I expected to be able to travel between Seattle to San Francisco (Oakland) by train. Now there's no train service between these two cities on my travel date (March 11). So I need to pay for the cost for alternative transportation myself? I was told there's a Thruway bus, but does it run all the way to San Francisco? :unsure:


You can always go to Chicago and then down to San Fran. Will only cost you more time, and much more fun on the train!


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## yarrow (Feb 13, 2008)

John Bredin said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > buy into the fact that amtrak doesn't care about you
> ...


amtrak is a company subsidized by our taxes and patronized by our hard earned wages. i have always been an amtrak booster but the managment attitude, especially in the cs situation, seems to be that amtrak managment doesn't care what obligations they might have to pre ticketed, pre reserved or pre planned customers. that sure has been our experience in this case


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## AlanB (Feb 13, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> John Bredin said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


Guys,

I personally don't fault Amtrak for not running the train as far as it possibly can. No argument from me that doing so would cost considerable monies, monies that Amtrak doesn't have.

Where I fault Amtrak though is in its desire to say to those who already had paid their fares, "Here's your money back, have a nice trip and a nice life." Amtrak entered into a contract with those people to provide transport to/from a specific destination and that statement isn't a responsible response to the problem. Again, I can see blocking out all future reservations starting the minute the slide occurred. I can see not running an abbreviated service.

But at a minimum Amtrak should have either provided some form of service to those already holding paid reservations/tickets, or failing that Amtrak should have at least provided assistance to those stranded. That assistance could have taken the form of a bus, or at least helping the people to make further reservations on other forms of transport.

A refund for someone already in transit is not an acceptable solution at all. And even for those not already in transit, a refund does nothing to instill confidence in people that Amtrak is a viable form of transportation. Amtrak needed to assist these passengers to find alternatives, and instead it failed miserably by only refunding the monies paid and washing its hands of any further involvement.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 13, 2008)

Thats what surprised me about it. I understand Amtrak's finances and why they don't run a bus bridge, but they've always seemed to me to be responsible in situations like this, more so than, say, American Airlines. The "wash our hands of you" attitude doesn't seem like the company as I've seen it in the past.


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## Railroad Bill (Feb 14, 2008)

As usal, Alan B is correct in his evaluation of the CS situation. Amtrak should have provided some relief to those stranded and perhaps to those whose tickets were to be used within a few days of the landslide.

But we as Americans need to get away from this "Everyone owes us a perfect life" scenario. There are other ways to get from Portland to San Francisco if you are planning a vacation. As has been pointed out many times, one must be flexible in your Amtrak travels. My wife and I try to plan some alternative setups in case something happens on the train. Planning ahead can alleviate some of the nasty things that happen to Amtrak trains. (Delays, rerouting, bustitutions, etc).

And even when planning ahead doesnt work, we try to remain mellow and see this as just another of life's adventures. "Into every life a little rain must fall"

And yes, we have tickets on the CS for May and if the line is still not in service, we will have to change plans. Disappointed, Yes. But I am sure we will find another way to get to Portland.

Have a great day! 

Railroad and Mrs. Bill


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 14, 2008)

Amtrak "adventures" can be the best part of a trip, in my opinion. Its always fun to see how Amtrak handles such problems.


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## MrFSS (Feb 16, 2008)

Railroad Bill said:


> As usual, Alan B is correct in his evaluation of the CS situation. Amtrak should have provided some relief to those stranded and perhaps to those whose tickets were to be used within a few days of the landslide.But we as Americans need to get away from this "Everyone owes us a perfect life" scenario. There are other ways to get from Portland to San Francisco if you are planning a vacation. As has been pointed out many times, one must be flexible in your Amtrak travels. My wife and I try to plan some alternative setups in case something happens on the train. Planning ahead can alleviate some of the nasty things that happen to Amtrak trains. (Delays, rerouting, bustitutions, etc).
> 
> And even when planning ahead doesn't work, we try to remain mellow and see this as just another of life's adventures. "Into every life a little rain must fall"
> 
> ...


This is completely hearsay. I was in LAUS a few days ago and chatted with an Amtrak employee who works there (not on a train but in the station area) and he said he had heard that the CS would not see full service between LAX and SEA again until at least 6/1. Again, third hand info so, take it with a grain of salt.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 16, 2008)

Given the current situation, that would surprise, but not shock, me.


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## Goduckies (Feb 16, 2008)

hear is an article on it from the Register Guard in Eugene....

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites...sid=1&fid=1

Looks like at least 6 more weeks.

Brad- in sunny Eugene


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## Eris (Feb 16, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Given the current situation, that would surprise, but not shock, me.


For a moment, I thought this was in the thread about electrical outlets.


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## D.P. Roberts (Feb 17, 2008)

The thorny question here is when Amtrak should really be cutting off reservations. For example, you can book a reservation for April, with no warning about the current situation. On one hand, the trains may be running by then, so you'd hate to turn potential customers away. On the other, they will have to issue a lot of refunds and have lots of angry customers if the delay goes into April or beyond. It's a no-win situation for them.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 17, 2008)

Were I them, I'd issue it with a warning of the potential trouble.


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## yarrow (Feb 17, 2008)

D.P. Roberts said:


> The thorny question here is when Amtrak should really be cutting off reservations. For example, you can book a reservation for April, with no warning about the current situation. On one hand, the trains may be running by then, so you'd hate to turn potential customers away. On the other, they will have to issue a lot of refunds and have lots of angry customers if the delay goes into April or beyond. It's a no-win situation for them.


amtrak could win, at least with me, by being honest and alerting those making reservations in april and beyond as to what the situation is and what amtrak will do if the route isn't reopened by the time of someone's travel


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## wayman (Feb 17, 2008)

Goduckies said:


> hear is an article on it from the Register Guard in Eugene....http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites...sid=1&fid=1
> 
> Looks like at least 6 more weeks.
> 
> Brad- in sunny Eugene


From the article:

***

Amtrak is losing about 1,400 riders a day with the shutdown, spokeswoman Vernae Graham said. But winter is a slow season for the passenger carrier.

“We start to see an increase in ridership closer to spring,” she said. The loss of rider revenue would have to be balanced against the lack of expense in running the trains, and no one at Amtrak has done the math yet, she said.

***

One hopes that even after discovering they are saving money (if in fact they are) by not running the train, they will still decide to re-instate service as soon as it is safe to do so....


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 17, 2008)

So wait. Amtrak carries 700 people on its Coast Starlight each way, each day?


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## yarrow (Feb 17, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> So wait. Amtrak carries 700 people on its Coast Starlight each way, each day?


i imagine they do. consider people who travel relatively short distances up and down the route.


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## Green Maned Lion (Feb 17, 2008)

Oh... h34r:


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## AudenHoggart (Feb 18, 2008)

DesertRat said:


> Phew that's a lot of big trees to clear. I was up in the mountains a couple of years ago and got to watch a tree-felling operation that had traffic stopped on the two-lane road. That tree came down with a lot of noise of course, then the crew ran up to it with some of the biggest chainsaws I've ever seen.
> That was during summer weather. Can't imagine how difficult it must be to do cut trees in cold, hard weather.


The first day the Amtrak reservations website shows as having service on the full route is March 24th. Does anyone have more updated information? Is it expected that the Pacific Parlour Cars will be back on the route at that time, or not until the "relaunch" later this spring?


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## George Harris (Feb 18, 2008)

AudenHoggart said:


> DesertRat said:
> 
> 
> > Phew that's a lot of big trees to clear. I was up in the mountains a couple of years ago and got to watch a tree-felling operation that had traffic stopped on the two-lane road. That tree came down with a lot of noise of course, then the crew ran up to it with some of the biggest chainsaws I've ever seen.
> ...


Concerning reinstatement of service on March 24: Given what is in the recent news, I would say, NOT A CHANCE.

Pulling a few things from the February 16 Eugene Register Gaurd article:



> It will take at least another six weeks and millions of dollars to clear away the massive landslide that demolished the Union Pacific Railroad tracks eight miles southeast of this rugged mountain community in January.
> But conditions on the mountain are still too unstable for railroad officials to know just when the cleanup will be finished or how much it will cost to get the job done, said Bill Van Trump, assistant vice president of engineering and maintenance for Union Pacific.
> 
> . . . .
> ...


Any any further explanation needed? With weather interruptions and further ground movement, it could easily be mid-April or later.


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## AudenHoggart (Feb 18, 2008)

George Harris said:


> AudenHoggart said:
> 
> 
> > DesertRat said:
> ...


Is the diner/lounge being used on the stub service from Los Angeles to Sacramento a domed observation car?


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## George Harris (Feb 18, 2008)

These are superliners. no domes.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 18, 2008)

AudenHoggart said:


> Is the diner/lounge being used on the stub service from Los Angeles to Sacramento a domed observation car?


The stub train is using a Sightseer lounge. The only food service is the cafe fare from the lower level of the Sightseer.


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## MrFSS (Feb 18, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> AudenHoggart said:
> 
> 
> > Is the diner/lounge being used on the stub service from Los Angeles to Sacramento a domed observation car?
> ...


I saw it leave LAUS last week. A really short train!


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## AudenHoggart (Feb 18, 2008)

MrFSS said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> > AudenHoggart said:
> ...


Does anyone know if the connecting bus from the northbound Coast Starlight in Salinas to Monterey is running while the Coast Starlight is only running the stub route? If so, does this bus wait at Salinas for the train? (It seems like the train is running more on time now that it's got the shorter route.)


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## PRR 60 (Feb 18, 2008)

AudenHoggart said:


> Does anyone know if the connecting bus from the northbound Coast Starlight in Salinas to Monterey is running while the Coast Starlight is only running the stub route? If so, does this bus wait at Salinas for the train? (It seems like the train is running more on time now that it's got the shorter route.)


The Starlight connecting bus between Salinas and Monterey and Carmel is operating for the stub train. It is will wait for a late train.


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## yarrow (Feb 20, 2008)

cs bus between sac and pdx

starting 2/28 a bus will be the cs between sac and pdx according to this. what took them so long? if they can do it now why no a month ago?


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## Dakguy201 (Feb 20, 2008)

To judge from what Union Pacific is saying to their customers on the UP website, I don't think full service anytime before April is likely.


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## Trogdor (Feb 20, 2008)

yarrow said:


> cs bus between sac and pdx
> starting 2/28 a bus will be the cs between sac and pdx according to this. what took them so long? if they can do it now why no a month ago?


My guess is, among other reasons:

1) ridership is picking up in March to the point where supplementing that service would be more fiscally viable

2) you can't just pick up the phone and establish a month-long contract for buses between two cities 600 miles apart. Not every reputable carrier just has buses and drivers sitting around ready to go at a moments notice. Those that do probably aren't able to guarantee continued availability for weeks, or perhaps months, on end. Therefore, Amtrak would need to shop around, get details worked out, etc. Remember, just like Amtrak doesn't always have a few extra coaches sitting around ready to pick up a surge in ridership, bus companies don't necessarily make a habit of keeping $350,000 vehicles sitting around, with drivers making $40,000-50,000 per year (just a guess on the salary) waiting for a sudden, long-term contract. It takes time to get stuff in place.


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## Chris J. (Feb 21, 2008)

rmadisonwi said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> > cs bus between sac and pdx
> ...


I'd say a month ago Amtrak might have thought they could get the train running again by now, but there's a lot more to be done than was thought at first. If it looks like it might be a while to get the line rebuilt, and I guess they figured they'd need to put something place.


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## AlanB (Feb 21, 2008)

Chris J. said:


> rmadisonwi said:
> 
> 
> > yarrow said:
> ...


I suspect that it's probably partly the reasons stated above, along with a fair amount of public pressure.

And while it might take time to find the extra drivers, the extra coaches were technically already available to Amtrak since it had a long term contract to bus people from Klamath Falls to the EB. So those buses were already sitting idle with no service on the CS.


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## yarrow (Feb 21, 2008)

AlanB said:


> And while it might take time to find the extra drivers, the extra coaches were technically already available to Amtrak since it had a long term contract to bus people from Klamath Falls to the EB. So those buses were already sitting idle with no service on the CS.



yup


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