# COVID-19 (Coronavirus) Pandemic: Amtrak Food Service Discussion



## Rasputin (Apr 13, 2020)

I see a report on Trainorders that 3 and 4 are operating without dining car crews and that sleeping car passengers are receiving boxed meals.

I don't know if this is limited to only one or two editions of 3 and 4 or if it will be standard procedure for a while.

As shown the Flagstaff webcam, 3(11) and 4(12) continue to have dining cars in the consist.

MODERATOR NOTE: currently, there are 3 threads relating to the Coronavirus. This thread, one for broader Amtrak-related discussion: COVID-19 (Coronavirus) Pandemic: Amtrak-related Discussion and one in the AU Lounge for non-Amtrak-related discussion: https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/covid-19-coronavirus-pandemic-general-discussion.76916/ 

Please use the appropriate thread for your discussion.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 13, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> I see a report on Trainorders that 3 and 4 are operating without dining car crews and that sleeping car passengers are receiving boxed meals.
> 
> I don't know if this is limited to only one or two editions of 3 and 4 or if it will be standard procedure for a while.
> 
> As shown the Flagstaff webcam, 3(11) and 4(12) continue to have dining cars in the consist.


Don't be shocked if this becomes SOP on the Chief ,and eventually ALL of the Western LD Trains, if Congress doesnt repeal the Mica Rule!


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 13, 2020)

Are there any passenger on board?

Does anyone ride any train right now?


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## TheTuck (Apr 13, 2020)

Only the Auto Train's sleeper diner will keep a full crew and normal menu. All other LDTs will go to the simplified microwaved meals and staffing will be LSA only. This is a temporary change due to extremely low patronage.


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## lordsigma (Apr 13, 2020)

I'm guessing the dining cars are shut down and the SSL LSA is preparing all meals given the low ridership.


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## me_little_me (Apr 13, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I'm guessing the dining cars are shut down and the SSL LSA is preparing all meals given the low ridership.


And he new lowered prices to compensate passengers for not getting those meals? Pffft!


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## lordsigma (Apr 13, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> And he new lowered prices to compensate passengers for not getting those meals? Pffft!


Apparently you’ll get a microwaved boxed meal during this period.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 13, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> And he new lowered prices to compensate passengers for not getting those meals? Pffft!


Sure, the Checks in the Mail!


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## LookingGlassTie (Apr 13, 2020)

Well under the current circumstances, a microwaved boxed meal IS better than nothing at all. Unless of course you bring your own food on board.


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## IndyLions (Apr 14, 2020)

I’m guessing a call to the appropriate hotline would render a reasonable refund for the downgrade in service. In a perfect world the reduction would be given automatically, but we know how perfect this world is...


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## Ryan (Apr 14, 2020)

You would probably guess wrongly. You paid for a ticket to get from point A to point B. You were provided meals. Amtrak has delivered what you paid for.


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## bratkinson (Apr 14, 2020)

Makes me glad I cancelled my annual AGR points redemption trip that would have started next Monday. 18 complete meals in full-service diners are a highlight of the trip. Meals in #29 & 30 are not in the above number.


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## Rasputin (Apr 14, 2020)

Ryan said:


> You would probably guess wrongly. You paid for a ticket to get from point A to point B. You were provided meals. Amtrak has delivered what you paid for.


Just not what is advertised on the website.


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## IndyLions (Apr 14, 2020)

Ryan said:


> You would probably guess wrongly. You paid for a ticket to get from point A to point B. You were provided meals. Amtrak has delivered what you paid for.



With that logic - as long as Amtrak delivers you from Point A to Point B - there is no situation where they would provide partial credit or a partial refund.

We both know that’s not the case. This forum contains dozens of posts from travelers that received partial credit due to a variety of situations that still resulted in them arriving at Point B - many of which were not Amtrak’s fault (as in this case).

It’s called basic customer service. It’s far less expensive to keep a customer than to lose one. Probably the same reason they are giving full refunds on trips not taken due to Covid-19 when the terms of the original tickets do not require them to do so.

In this particular case, a modest voucher towards future travel (when requested politely) would likely be provided - I’d bet on it.


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## Ryan (Apr 14, 2020)

I was speaking narrowly about refunds related to the change in food service that took place on the eastern trains. I'm not aware of any that were provided - why would they be expected for the same thing on a different train?


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## railiner (Apr 14, 2020)

Ryan said:


> I was speaking narrowly about refunds related to the change in food service that took place on the eastern trains. I'm not aware of any that were provided - why would they be expected for the same thing on a different train?


I think those 'downgrades' are for different reasons...
I would think that in the case of the permanent change, most customer's were(are) aware of that when booking. But if it is a temporary downgrade, that the customer was not aware of, I think some type of compensation is in order..


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## Amtrakfflyer (Apr 14, 2020)

Because it’s Amtrak and any semi legitimate gripe will be rewarded with a voucher if its worded correctly. They’re just giving a coupon for future use which in most cases will bring in extra revenue down the road. Call the 800 number on the side of your Aunt Jemima pancake mix box and say your pancakes didn’t come out great, they‘ll send you a coupon for another box. It’s just what good companies do to keep customers happy.


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 14, 2020)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Call the 800 number on the side of your Aunt Jemima pancake mix box and say your pancakes didn’t come out great, they‘ll send you a coupon for another box. It’s just what good companies do to keep customers happy.



Or contact the company with praise for how much you like their product. Sometimes, you will receive a coupon.


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## Ryan (Apr 14, 2020)

railiner said:


> I would think that in the case of the permanent change, most customer's were(are) aware of that when booking.


There were a great many people who booked before the change was announced.

If I'm taking a LD train at this point, it's because I have to absolutely to be somewhere else, and I'd be grateful for the ability to get there. Putting my hand out for Amtrak to "compensate me" for serving me different food so the dining car workers can remain home and safe wouldn't even cross my mind.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Apr 14, 2020)

LookingGlassTie said:


> Well under the current circumstances, a microwaved boxed meal IS better than nothing at all. Unless of course you bring your own food on board.



Will they still allow your meal to be microwaved, if you brought your own?


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## IndyLions (Apr 14, 2020)

Ryan said:


> There were a great many people who booked before the change was announced.
> 
> If I'm taking a LD train at this point, it's because I have to absolutely to be somewhere else, and I'd be grateful for the ability to get there. Putting my hand out for Amtrak to "compensate me" for serving me different food so the dining car workers can remain home and safe wouldn't even cross my mind.



Touche - I agree with almost all of that. It certainly is a good decision as far as I’m concerned to keep as many employees at home and safe as possible. Hopefully they are being paid - otherwise you could argue that Amtrak is just cutting their losses.

The very narrow scenario where a modest voucher is appropriate would be:

1. The reservation was made pre-Covid 19.
2. The reservation was made on a train featuring full service dining.
3. The passenger considers full service dining to be an important component of what they paid for.
4. The passengers circumstance dictated they had no choice but to take the trip and not cancel.

That’s a pretty narrow scenario, to say the least.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2020)

Looks like all Amtrak Western LD trains now have Flexible Dining for the duration of the pandemic modified operations...









Amtrak Will Re-assess Dining By The End of May | Rail Passengers Association | Washington, DC







www.railpassengers.org


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## Gp30sieb (Apr 14, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> In this particular case, a modest voucher towards future travel (when requested politely) would likely be provided - I’d bet on it.




I had a ticket for next week that I got refunded back. I have a longer round trip to the NRHS convention on SWC in June that is postponed TBD. The woman at Amtrak told me that it could be refunded or I could get a voucher for travel *within a year*. I opted to wait until later spring so I would have a full year if needed.


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## Albi (Apr 14, 2020)

Just found this in my Google suggestions. I can't read the article as I am not a subscriber, but I could read the comments. Most are suggesting that this is a watershed moment and nothing is as long lasting as a temporary change...


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## me_little_me (Apr 14, 2020)

Ryan said:


> I was speaking narrowly about refunds related to the change in food service that took place on the eastern trains. I'm not aware of any that were provided - why would they be expected for the same thing on a different train?


Could it be because Amtrak announced their "new flex menu" in advance and told people ahead of time what junk was being provided with that meal? Other than those who went before Amtrak announced it and/or posted the new meals on their web site, one could say that the passengers could/should have known that the change was what they were going to get. While it's true IMHO that Amtrak should have lowered their prices since the service was lowered for those on Eastern trains, he fact that it wasn't for those latter customers just indicates how low Amtrak has gone while trying to copy some of the tactics of those"less than ethical" private corporations that do similar things like announcing "new better flavor" because they substituted cheaper ingredients and kept the price the same. Welch's sparkling grape juice suddenly became "sparkling grape juice drink as they changed it to 50% sugar water instead of 100% juice" quite a few years ago as it had always been prior to that. When I wrote to complain, they replied "customers today like it better" just like "fresh choices" is "liked" more by the "younger travelers" on Amtrak.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 15, 2020)

Microwaves? I thought they only had convection ovens onboard?


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## Rasputin (Apr 15, 2020)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Microwaves? I thought they only had convection ovens onboard?


Just curious - meals from microwaves vs. meals from convection ovens. Is the end result any different? Sorry to say that I don't know enough about meal preparation to know the answer! Thanks.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 15, 2020)

Albi said:


> Just found this in my Google suggestions. I can't read the article as I am not a subscriber, but I could read the comments. Most are suggesting that this is a watershed moment and nothing is as long lasting as a temporary change...View attachment 17296


Add Traditonal Diners to the Long List of Vanishing Amenities on Amtrak LD Trains!


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## railiner (Apr 15, 2020)

They cook in completely different ways...convection ovens are a standard oven, with fan forced air circulation to even out the temperature, and speed up cooking times. Microwaves use electrical radiation to vibrate the molecules of the food, and heat from within. They are faster than convection ovens, however, they don't 'brown' the foods, and unless they are timed carefully, can ruin the texture of the food...it can come out like rubber..
Some foods can be browned by using special dishes inside the microwave that heat up for that purpose, but it's an art to master...


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## Rasputin (Apr 15, 2020)

railiner said:


> They cook in completely different ways...convection ovens are a standard oven, with fan forced air circulation to even out the temperature, and speed up cooking times. Microwaves use electrical radiation to vibrate the molecules of the food, and heat from within. They are faster than convection ovens, however, they don't 'brown' the foods, and unless they are timed carefully, can ruin the texture of the food...it can come out like rubber..
> Some foods can be browned by using special dishes inside the microwave that heat up for that purpose, but it's an art to master...


I am beginning to see the light! Thanks very much for that explanation. I guess that is why I like to heat up a small slice of leftover pizza in the toaster oven and not in the microwave. Takes longer but tastes better.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2020)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Microwaves? I thought they only had convection ovens onboard?



The meals are being prepared in the lounge Cars.


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## Skyline (Apr 15, 2020)

I use the microwave to heat water, maybe certain soups. Anything else, I go old school. 

Many frozen convenience foods have both microwave and conventional instructions. I find the end result is much better using conventional. A good example is Marie Callender's Chicken Pot Pies. Like night and day. Don't microwave. Take the time to cook it the right way.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2020)

I think this is a good step. It removes a lot of people - OBS employees, from COVID harm's way. Passengers should be able to sacrifice a little bit of their comfort for making lives easier for others.

I had actually been wondering how Amtrak Diners are consistent with for example, California's lockdown rules. Now that possible disconnect goes away. It is essentially going to a take-out/delivery service instead of table service, as has been done at restaurants in most states.


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## Albi (Apr 15, 2020)

jis said:


> I think this is a good step. It removes a lot of people - OBS employees, from COVID harm's way. Passengers should be able to sacrifice a little bit of their comfort for making lives easier for others.
> 
> I had actually been wondering how Amtrak Diners are consistent with for example, California's lockdown rules. Now that possible disconnect goes away. It is essentially going to a take-out/delivery service instead of table service, as has been done at restaurants in most states.



If this was the same food just taken out to be eaten in my room, I would be ok with that. Or, alternatively, if they were reducing the rate substantially by the same grade they reduced the food quality by handing out heated TV dinners.

But this is not what they do! You are still paying for a $40 dinner with your rate, but you are handed a $4 item instead. That is my problem.


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## AmtrakBlue (Apr 15, 2020)

Albi said:


> If this was the same food just taken out to be eaten in my room, I would be ok with that. Or, alternatively, if they were reducing the rate substantially by the same grade they reduced the food quality by handing out heated TV dinners.
> 
> But this is not what they do! You are still paying for a $40 dinner with your rate, but you are handed a $4 item instead. That is my problem.


As I recall, they did not reduce the price of ticket on the eastern trains when they switched from full diner to flex dining. Why would they do that on the western trains, even for a temporary switch? Oh, and it's not a $4 item if the SCA brings it to your room. Consider the service fee.


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## jis (Apr 15, 2020)

Albi said:


> But this is not what they do! You are still paying for a $40 dinner with your rate, but you are handed a $4 item instead. That is my problem.


I think you should really be paying more than the fare at normal times to cover the risks that the people running trains are putting up with just to enable you to travel. I guess my priorities are on different things than yours.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> Just curious - meals from microwaves vs. meals from convection ovens. Is the end result any different? Sorry to say that I don't know enough about meal preparation to know the answer! Thanks.



They can be. Many of the “chef inspired” entrees were just warmed in the convection oven I think... I can’t imagine a Lamb Shank tasting that good from a microwave. 

On the other hand, I’ve had microwaved food better than the contemporary dining which I believe is convection oven?


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## MARC Rider (Apr 15, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> They can be. Many of the “chef inspired” entrees were just warmed in the convection oven I think... I can’t imagine a Lamb Shank tasting that good from a microwave.
> 
> On the other hand, I’ve had microwaved food better than the contemporary dining which I believe is convection oven?


No, it seems to me that the contemporary flex entrees are microwave heated.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 15, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> No, it seems to me that the contemporary flex entrees are microwave heated.


All airline food, even first class, is all prepared on the ground and reheated in flight in convection ovens.
I believe that even in traditional dining cars, all of the meals except the steaks and maybe the omelets are precooked and heated in a convection oven. And I wouldn't be surprised if the omelets were made from eggs in a bottle. Back in the days of "chef-inspired" entrees, some of those precooked meals were pretty good.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> All airline food, even first class, is all prepared on the ground and reheated in flight in convection ovens.
> I believe that even in traditional dining cars, all of the meals except the steaks and maybe the omelets are precooked and heated in a convection oven. And I wouldn't be surprised if the omelets were made from eggs in a bottle. Back in the days of "chef-inspired" entrees, some of those precooked meals were pretty good.



The full service Amtrak diners are a mixed bag. For breakfast for example... the scrambled eggs and omelettes are made fresh from eggs on board. The pancake batter is pre-made but the pancakes are cooked on board. The oatmeal is cooked on board. The other items like French toast, potatoes, sausage, etc is pre-cooked but if the chef “grills” them right, they will taste much better. 

Lunch and dinner is similar... the burgers come pre-cooked but the chef can grill them and can grill the buns and make them taste way better than a typical reheated burger.

The domestic first class meals I’ve had are pretty good. Not as good as Amtrak full service, but way better than contemporary meals.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 15, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The domestic first class [airline] meals I’ve had are pretty good. Not as good as Amtrak full service, but way better than contemporary meals.



That's what I would expect. Which means that there's hope that Amtrak management could still salvage the contemporary flex dining concept. It seems that the real cost savings is in reducing the number of on-board service personnel. These savings would still be realized with better quality entrees and more choice. They could increase choice without having excess inventory costs by allowing for meals to be pre-ordered at the time of reservation, or any point after that. That would also allow for the provision of kosher, halal, and various special dietary needs. For the short eastern trips, at least, there's no real need for full dining service, the problem is the food they're dishing up is lousy, and there's little for the coach passengers.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> That's what I would expect. Which means that there's hope that Amtrak management could still salvage the contemporary flex dining concept. It seems that the real cost savings is in reducing the number of on-board service personnel. These savings would still be realized with better quality entrees and more choice. They could increase choice without having excess inventory costs by allowing for meals to be pre-ordered at the time of reservation, or any point after that. That would also allow for the provision of kosher, halal, and various special dietary needs. For the short eastern trips, at least, there's no real need for full dining service, the problem is the food they're dishing up is lousy, and there's little for the coach passengers.



Are the contemporary meals microwave or convection oven? If microwave there is no hope. They sure taste and look like microwave meals but I’m not sure how they are actually cooked.


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## lordsigma (Apr 15, 2020)

I can’t imagine there are that many people using the trains right now where this would be a big deal. I have to imagine the vast majority of essential travelers are traveling shorter or at most one night trips. I can’t imagine anyone is traveling end to end right now. And you can get refunds basically with zero strings attached due to covid 19 on any reservation right now so if there was theoretically someone ticked off they could get a refund.

As far as I’m concerned all these changes are completely justified. The less employees needed for Amtrak to operate the essential service the better. Once the economy reopens if management played games and made it permanent on these routes I’d be the first to criticize - flex dining doesn’t cut it for a 2 night leisure trip. But for now this is totally justified and they haven’t let the employees go.


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## lordsigma (Apr 15, 2020)

Albi said:


> If this was the same food just taken out to be eaten in my room, I would be ok with that. Or, alternatively, if they were reducing the rate substantially by the same grade they reduced the food quality by handing out heated TV dinners.
> 
> But this is not what they do! You are still paying for a $40 dinner with your rate, but you are handed a $4 item instead. That is my problem.



I can’t imagine there are any people riding right now that would care. Any essential travelers are likely going short distances or one night at most. And Amtrak has an extremely generous covid 19 cancellation policy. If someone really had an issue they can get a refund. People aren’t taking two night land cruises right now.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2020)

jis said:


> I guess my priorities are on different things than yours.



Seems like a silly comment to make... this is an Amtrak discussion board, of course we are going to be discussing Amtrak even if we aren’t in the place to be riding it right now.

I’m personally glad to see the Zephyr restored.... I had a legitimate concern it would never operate beyond Denver again.


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## lordsigma (Apr 15, 2020)

Il


crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m personally glad to see the Zephyr restored.... I had a legitimate concern it would never operate beyond Denver again.


I’ll be honest I wasn’t concerned in the least about the Zephyr. They had a legitimate operational situation with a two week quarantine. If Amtrak furloughed anybody right now they’d get really bad press. Also I recall this stated by Anderson at a congressional hearing this or last year may not be a perfect quote “I do believe there are certain routes that Amtrak should always operate - like the Builder, like the Zephyr, like the Coast Starlight..” The Zephyr isn’t on the hit list, and if you want to eventually run an “experiential” service, and the five year plans indicate they do, the Zephyr has to be in your top three if not top two choices of trains you are thinking for such a service. At this point any of that is likely a few years away given the present situation, but still the Zephyr isn’t on the chopping block.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 15, 2020)

You have a lot more faith in Amtrak and Anderson’s words than I do. But like I said, glad it came back on schedule.


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## jebr (Apr 16, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You have a lot more faith in Amtrak and Anderson’s words than I do. But like I said, glad it came back on schedule.



No need to worry about Anderson's words anymore. William Flynn is the CEO now.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 16, 2020)

jebr said:


> No need to worry about Anderson's words anymore. William Flynn is the CEO now.


Not a good time to Start Learning the Job on the Fly!( Pun intended!)


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## lordsigma (Apr 16, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You have a lot more faith in Amtrak and Anderson’s words than I do. But like I said, glad it came back on schedule.


Don't get me wrong I have disagreements just as you do about decisions that were made during his tenure (and some that I agree with such as the focus on safety management and improving OTP) but I think for the most part he has done what he has said and not told outright lies. I do think there are long distance routes that were (and may still be) a target. I would imagine Flynn is going to follow on the same path as Anderson that the board has set so I'm sure the corridor vs. long distance debate will continue. But I just don't feel the Zephyr was ever on the chopping block...just my opinion. I'm sure Flynn's job is going to be quite a bit different than he anticipated having to start out during this COVID-19 situation. His job has morphed from likely just continuing on what Anderson started to having to rebuild the railroad after this crisis.


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## tonys96 (Apr 16, 2020)

My guess, and it is ONLY my personal guess, is that on April 1, 2021, full service dining will still not be available on all the routes that it was available on as of April 1, 2020.


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## JoeBas (Apr 16, 2020)

Never let a good crisis go to waste!


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## Mail4MrTed (Apr 16, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Don't be shocked if this becomes SOP on the Chief ,and eventually ALL of the Western LD Trains, if Congress doesnt repeal the Mica Rule!



Living in New Orleans, where Covid 19 is a very serious problem (Louisiana now has over 1,000 deaths), I fully understand why Amtrak would resort to boxed meals rather than the diner: Spread of the disease from people congregating in the diner, whether passengers of crew, the huge expense of paying a large dining car staff for very few patrons, are two examples. These are difficult times and require difficult measures in order to keep any transportation running at all and to be sure as many people are as safe as they can be. Frankly, I'm not sure why people would want to be traveling right now anyway. They should stay home. That being said, I wouldn't trust Anderson any farther than I could throw him so what this means for the future is another matter.


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## Skyline (Apr 16, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I can’t imagine there are that many people using the trains right now where this would be a big deal. I have to imagine the vast majority of essential travelers are traveling shorter or at most one night trips. I can’t imagine anyone is traveling end to end right now. And you can get refunds basically with zero strings attached due to covid 19 on any reservation right now so if there was theoretically someone ticked off they could get a refund.
> 
> As far as I’m concerned all these changes are completely justified. The less employees needed for Amtrak to operate the essential service the better. Once the economy reopens if management played games and made it permanent on these routes I’d be the first to criticize - flex dining doesn’t cut it for a 2 night leisure trip. But for now this is totally justified and they haven’t let the employees go.



I have a friend with many years seniority in OBS who was recently assigned to the Extra Board instead of being temporarily laid off. He says this has happened to quite a few of his coworkers, and he is confused as to why they are being left in limbo like that. His view is that none of them will be called back to do actual work while on the Extra Board, as it is more of a demotion with lower pay.


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## Gary Behling (Apr 16, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Could it be because Amtrak announced their "new flex menu" in advance and told people ahead of time what junk was being provided with that meal? Other than those who went before Amtrak announced it and/or posted the new meals on their web site, one could say that the passengers could/should have known that the change was what they were going to get. While it's true IMHO that Amtrak should have lowered their prices since the service was lowered for those on Eastern trains, he fact that it wasn't for those latter customers just indicates how low Amtrak has gone while trying to copy some of the tactics of those"less than ethical" private corporations that do similar things like announcing "new better flavor" because they substituted cheaper ingredients and kept the price the same. Welch's sparkling grape juice suddenly became "sparkling grape juice drink as they changed it to 50% sugar water instead of 100% juice" quite a few years ago as it had always been prior to that. When I wrote to complain, they replied "customers today like it better" just like "fresh choices" is "liked" more by the "younger travelers" on Amtrak.


I sure hope we'll still get Amtrak Cheesecake. I really don't much care about the other stuff


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## OBS (Apr 16, 2020)

Skyline said:


> I have a friend with many years seniority in OBS who was recently assigned to the Extra Board instead of being temporarily laid off. He says this has happened to quite a few of his coworkers, and he is confused as to why they are being left in limbo like that. His view is that none of them will be called back to do actual work while on the Extra Board, as it is more of a demotion with lower pay.


He would prefer to be laid off, and be paid even less as well as lose his benefits?


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## Ryan (Apr 16, 2020)

tonys96 said:


> My guess, and it is ONLY my personal guess, is that on April 1, 2021, full service dining will still not be available on all the routes that it was available on as of April 1, 2020.


I'll take that bet. Name the stakes.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 16, 2020)

Ryan said:


> I'll take that bet. Name the stakes.



One drink in whatever food service car is operating!


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## bratkinson (Apr 16, 2020)

Skyline said:


> I have a friend with many years seniority in OBS who was recently assigned to the Extra Board instead of being temporarily laid off. He says this has happened to quite a few of his coworkers, and he is confused as to why they are being left in limbo like that. His view is that none of them will be called back to do actual work while on the Extra Board, as it is more of a demotion with lower pay.



It's a sneaky way to prevent him/her to collect RR unemployment. I don't know about the Amtrak on board services contract, having been in TCU at CSX Intermodal, I suspect that on the extra board, there's no 'guarantee' of hours and pay like I had. Hence, unless they're working, they get zero money from Amtrak and zero from RR unemployment. It's also a means that whenever someone does call out sick, one phone call and the spot gets filled.

While on the extra board at CSX Intermodal, when there wasn't a vacation or sick time to cover, they'd schedule me to be there anyway. That gave me all the outdoor work, while the regular man sat on his butt all day at the terminal handling drivers that came inside.


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## toddinde (Apr 16, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> Just not what is advertised on the website.


There is a worldwide pandemic. Travel should be limited to essential travel. A little inconvenience under the circumstances is hardly unreasonable. If you want to have a Lucious Beebe experience, stay home.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 16, 2020)

As a side note, I’m sure this is to save on food waste as well. The number of passengers is going to be so low that guessing how to stock the diners would be difficult. I wonder if they had already gone to express menus only? Would have made sense.


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## Rasputin (Apr 16, 2020)

toddinde said:


> There is a worldwide pandemic. Travel should be limited to essential travel. A little inconvenience under the circumstances is hardly unreasonable. If you want to have a Lucious Beebe experience, stay home.


My comment related to whether sleeping car passengers should be entitled to some type of a refund after paying full fare on trains which no longer operate a dining car.


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## lordsigma (Apr 16, 2020)

They are trying to achieve 0 furloughs and layoffs during this period. They are using the extra board to place employees affected by covid related service changes. (OBS cuts, train frequency reductions, and outright suspensions in some corridors.) I think I’d rather Be getting paid a reduced wage then have to deal with unemployment right now. On my local service I believe they abolished all conductor and engineer jobs and everyone is working off the extra board for the reduced frequencies on the line.


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## jebr (Apr 16, 2020)

*MODERATOR NOTE: *Please use this thread for all Amtrak Food Service related changes/discussion surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic. Other Amtrak-related discussion can be done here: COVID-19 (Coronavirus) Pandemic: Amtrak-related Discussion and broader discussion can be done here: https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/covid-19-coronavirus-pandemic-general-discussion.76916/

Thank you for your cooperation with this to try and keep threads a bit clearer for different discussion aspects.


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## jis (Apr 16, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Seems like a silly comment to make... this is an Amtrak discussion board, of course we are going to be discussing Amtrak even if we aren’t in the place to be riding it right now.


Maybe you did not understand the comment perhaps? It is quite clear that I was merely stating an observed fact that my concern was about the safety of Amtrak crew whereas his was on whether he is served dinner in the Diner and whinging about not getting a lower fare because he was getting a box meal in his room instead. What does anything have to do with this being an Amtrak discussion Board.?My comment was entirely about Amtrak. What did you think it was about?


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## OBS (Apr 16, 2020)

bratkinson said:


> It's a sneaky way to prevent him/her to collect RR unemployment. I don't know about the Amtrak on board services contract, having been in TCU at CSX Intermodal, I suspect that on the extra board, there's no 'guarantee' of hours and pay like I had. Hence, unless they're working, they get zero money from Amtrak and zero from RR unemployment. It's also a means that whenever someone does call out sick, one phone call and the spot gets filled.
> 
> While on the extra board at CSX Intermodal, when there wasn't a vacation or sick time to cover, they'd schedule me to be there anyway. That gave me all the outdoor work, while the regular man sat on his butt all day at the terminal handling drivers that came inside.


Actually, the OBS extra board has a guarantee of 150 hours a month unless you break your guarantee. Sure, you may have to make a trip into the crewbase on a protect position for 8 hour job. But otherwise you keep all benefits and paid for 150 hours in case you work less in the month. FWIW, most regular positions pay 180-200 hours per month.


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 16, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> Just curious - meals from microwaves vs. meals from convection ovens. Is the end result any different?





crescent-zephyr said:


> Are the contemporary meals microwave or convection oven? If microwave there is no hope.


Microwaves and convection ovens heat food differently but they can both be used to serve a tasty meal when a chef plans around their strengths and weaknesses. Conversely, a low quality meal won't taste much better just because you used a fancier oven to heat it.



MARC Rider said:


> All airline food, even first class, is all prepared on the ground and reheated in flight in convection ovens.


Supposedly there are a few airlines that prepare some meals inflight on a small number of premier intercontinental flights. I've had some really tasty meals in long haul premium cabins but to the best of my understanding the closest they came to onboard preparation was being cooked to around 60% on the ground, chilled for storage, and then finished in an on-board oven. Still had a really good flavor though.



tonys96 said:


> My guess, and it is ONLY my personal guess, is that on April 1, 2021, full service dining will still not be available on all the routes that it was available on as of April 1, 2020.





Ryan said:


> I'll take that bet. Name the stakes.


The way I read it, even the loss of _one_ route's full service dining meets his criteria. That is not a bet I'd be willing to take so long as the Mica rule remains in effect.


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## lordsigma (Apr 16, 2020)

This is not about the Mica rule and its not about sabotaging trains. It's about safety (for passenger by serving something with at least contact as possible and for employee by operating essential service with the least number of employees possible) and practicality. How does it make sense to have 3 or 4 people working the dining car to serve 10 people or less for the entire route? You're also talking about a lot of food spoilage in that scenario. Amtrak's management has acknowledged more than once that what works for the single night trains doesn't necessarily work for the double overnights. Once travel bans and such are relaxed its going to be necessary to restore normal amenities to attract people back to these trains (I acknowledge this is also just one person's opinion - but whether this management likes it or not certain LD trains are not going away and if you want people to ride two night trains you need the traditional dining. When you are trying to get Amtrak to break even it doesnt make sense for trains like the Zephyr or Builder to lose even more money by gutting amenities. Single level long distance trains can work without traditional dining - two nighters I believe wont which is why I personally believe dining will return.) If this was about the Mica rule and sabotaging trains the affected staff would be on furlough - instead they are on the extra board and receiving pay.


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 16, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> This is not about the Mica rule and its not about sabotaging trains. It's about safety (for passenger by serving something with at least contact as possible and for employee by operating essential service with the least number of employees possible) and practicality. How does it make sense to have 3 or 4 people working the dining car to serve 10 people or less for the entire route? You're also talking about a lot of food spoilage in that scenario. Amtrak's management has acknowledged more than once that what works for the single night trains doesn't necessarily work for the double overnights. Once travel bans and such are relaxed its going to be necessary to restore normal amenities to attract people back to these trains (I acknowledge this is also just one person's opinion - but whether this management likes it or not certain LD trains are not going away and if you want people to ride two night trains you need the traditional dining. When you are trying to get Amtrak to break even it doesnt make sense for trains like the Zephyr or Builder to lose even more money by gutting amenities. Single level long distance trains can work without traditional dining - two nighters I believe wont which is why I personally believe dining will return.) If this was about the Mica rule and sabotaging trains the affected staff would be on furlough - instead they are on the extra board and receiving pay.


That's because of a Union Contract and Seniority, not kind hearted Management!

There are plenty of Amtrak workers layed off, but so far were not getting any numbers, the Federal Government is trying to " Manage" the Unemployment Figures by order of the Labor Department!


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 16, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> My understanding is there have not been any furloughs or layoffs within Amtrak during the covid 19 situation,


It's not just the OBS, lots of Support Staff, New Hires ( one of our Members from Philly included)etc have been affected, and the Chefs cant work as SCAs, Coach attendants or in the Yards etc.

Maybe someone from Amtrak knows the actual Numbers???


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## Devil's Advocate (Apr 16, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> This is not about the Mica rule and its not about sabotaging trains. It's about safety (for passenger by serving something with at least contact as possible and for employee by operating essential service with the least number of employees possible) and practicality.


Does the Mica rule allow a force majeure exception for pandemics? Regardless of whatever role the rule may or may not play in the decision to remove service I have little doubt it will play a role in any decision to bring full dining service back again.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 16, 2020)

Ryan said:


> I'll take that bet. Name the stakes.



I'd love to share your optimism but,



Devil's Advocate said:


> The way I read it, even the loss of _one_ route's full service dining meets his criteria. That is not a bet I'd be willing to take so long as the Mica rule remains in effect.



As Devil's Advocate has pointed out, Amtrak has not been relieved of the Mica rule. Under the current guidelines, no federal funds may be used to cover F&B losses starting next FY. Did anyone see the F&B plan for the LD network that would meet these criteria? 

Something like contemporary, flexible, uptempo, boxed, caged, or food truck at strategic locations may have been in the wings. The emergency situation may have just pushed certain things to the forefront with a certain amount of urgency. It is entirely too early to rule out this may be the new norm. Ridership will dictate what occurs and if the ridership isn't there, why would they return a full staff to the train to compete against their own products?

Remember, there IS at least one modified, "single food service car" Viewliner prototype car out there.



lordsigma said:


> My understanding is there have not been any furloughs or layoffs within Amtrak during the covid 19 situation,



I notice there are plenty of things on this board (and others) that you don't fully understand.


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## lordsigma (Apr 17, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I notice there are plenty of things on this board (and others) that you don't fully understand.


You're absolutely right and it's time I accept that. I don't want to continue to be a source of misinformation, so it's time to take a break. To everyone on this board: stay safe, be well in these uncertain times and hopefully before long we will get back to a state of normality.


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## IndyLions (Apr 17, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> You're absolutely right and it's time I accept that. I don't want to continue to be a source of misinformation, so it's time to take a break. To everyone on this board: stay safe, be well in these uncertain times and hopefully before long we will get back to a state of normality.


Don’t go any where - it’s a message board intended for enjoyment. Everyone understands that.


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## lordsigma (Apr 17, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> Don’t go any where - it’s a message board intended for enjoyment. Everyone understands that.


I'm sure I'll be back when the COVID crisis ends, I just want to take a break - I think it's best for all parties including myself. I don't want to draw this conversation out, I just want to leave it there. Again, stay safe and be well all.


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## Maverickstation (Apr 17, 2020)

One option that can make the Flex Dining not a total nutritional disaster, is to pre-order one of the Kosher Meals.

This Food Facts page for the Lake Shore describes what can be ordered in advance.






Menu Items – Limited | Amtrak Food Facts







amtrakfoodfacts.com


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## tonys96 (Apr 17, 2020)

Re:
The way I read it, even the loss of _one_ route's full service dining meets his criteria. That is not a bet I'd be willing to take so long as the Mica rule remains in effect.
[/QUOTE]
That would be correct.
"Beware the camel's nose."


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## Rasputin (Apr 17, 2020)

I knew I should have used most of my points when the going was good!

And I wonder how wise it is to keep acquiring more points. I am concerned that next year they may not be worth near as much in terms of the quality of service you receive.

"Third boxcar in that train."


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 17, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I don't want to continue to be a source of misinformation




If we waited to post for verified facts, this place would shut down...and that "other place" wouldn't even have a domain name. 

I'm not much for chasing people but I will say you would be doing the board a disservice by withdrawing.


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## tonys96 (Apr 17, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I'm sure I'll be back when the COVID crisis ends, I just want to take a break - I think it's best for all parties including myself. I don't want to draw this conversation out, I just want to leave it there. Again, stay safe and be well all.



There is an "ignore" option that keeps you from seeing posts from folks who you find irritating, sarcastic, mean or whatever. It works well. I have two on my "ignore" list, and I like this board much more with them on said list.
Try it before quitting.


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## lordsigma (Apr 17, 2020)

No need for ignoring - disagreement and criticism are healthy and the criticism to that particular post was well deserved. My initial response was probably a bit of an over reaction to being embarrassed for the mistake. I am going to slow down for a bit as I am spending too much time in front of the computer screen, but the most constructive thing to do is learn from the mistake and try to be more mindful about posting and thinking before hitting the submit button.


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## nferr (Apr 17, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> My comment related to whether sleeping car passengers should be entitled to some type of a refund after paying full fare on trains which no longer operate a dining car.



Be happy they're running. You realize they're running trains with a handful of passengers?


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 17, 2020)

nferr said:


> Be happy they're running. You realize they're running trains with a handful of passengers?



It’s understandable for Amtrak to cut the diners with the limited # of passengers. 

It’s understandable for passengers to expect what they paid for. 

It’s not an either or. If a passenger is disappointed they can call customer service and possibly get a reimbursement. I was once reimbursed after complaining about an express menu being the only option given to me.


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## tricia (Apr 17, 2020)

I'm sure there'd be more support expressed in this thread for Amtrak's COVID-19-period food service changes if Amtrak's management hadn't been so ham-handed about previous food service changes over the past year or so.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Apr 17, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> I'm sure I'll be back when the COVID crisis ends, I just want to take a break - I think it's best for all parties including myself. I don't want to draw this conversation out, I just want to leave it there. Again, stay safe and be well all.



You, too, lordsigma.
I think how this stupid virus has changed our routines is getting on everyone’s nerves in different ways.
Get some rest away from us, but come back when things start getting back to normal where you are—I rely on you for lots of news and tidbits about CTrail!


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## jis (Apr 17, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I notice there are plenty of things on this board (and others) that you don't fully understand.


This was in response to lordsigma's understanding regarding status of Amtrak emplyees through this COVID period.

Thirdrail I have a non-rhetorical question on this matter, First some background....

One of the requirements that the airlines which are getting CARES funding is that they must maintain their payroll as is through 30th September. This apparently translates to each getting coverage for 76% percent of their existing payroll as on some agreed upon baseline date (apparently the rest they can cover through continuing operations somehow) for the period provided they don't fire or furlough anyone without pay, and apparently they have all agreed. Indeed Munoz and Kirby have pretty much said so in a message to the employees, together with a discussion of various scenarios that might unfold come 1st October depending on how things go. There are certain other stipulations of not abandoning any routes without permission of the DOT for this period and for some period beyond.

In your understanding what are the stipulations, if any, that are placed on Amtrak for receiving the $1 Billion from CARES. Is there a restriction equivalent to the one that airlines have to sign up to? Or does Amtrak have a free hand to furlough/fire whoever and pocket the money? I don't have a clue since I have not seen anything like the Munoz/Kirby missive to the United employees coming from Amtrak management to its employees.

Thanks.


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## Palmland (Apr 17, 2020)

IndyLions said:


> Don’t go any where - it’s a message board intended for enjoyment. Everyone understands that.


You make a good point, but unfortunately i don’t think all understand that. No one enjoys it when there is a verbal contest about who is right (and the other guy is so misinformed). I appreciate lordsigma’s posts and hope he will return soon.


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## toddinde (Apr 18, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Does the Mica rule allow a force majeure exception for pandemics? Regardless of whatever role the rule may or may not play in the decision to remove service I have little doubt it will play a role in any decision to bring full dining service back again.


The Mica Rule is a red herring. It was used as an excuse for the contemporary dining. I think the Mica Rule is much ado about nothing. Obviously it should be repealed, but it doesn’t factor in to the pandemic.


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## Thirdrail7 (Apr 18, 2020)

jis said:


> In your understanding what are the stipulations, if any, that are placed on Amtrak for receiving the $1 Billion from CARES. Is there a restriction equivalent to the one that airlines have to sign up to? Or does Amtrak have a free hand to furlough/fire whoever and pocket the money? I don't have a clue since I have not seen anything like the Munoz/Kirby missive to the United employees coming from Amtrak management to its employees.




I don't believe there is a specific restriction that forbids furloughs. I do believe they must avoid involuntary furloughs and run the operation to the best of their abilities. To be sure, there is a "voluntary" furlough plan in place that is being used to help avoid "involuntary" furloughs. 

The "goal" is to "avoid" involuntary furloughs.


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## Skyline (Apr 27, 2020)

OBS said:


> He would prefer to be laid off, and be paid even less as well as lose his benefits?



I'm pretty sure he'd rather be working, but if that's not possible I think he'd prefer to be receiving unemployment checks while maintaining his health insurance as Amtrak will allegedly call him back someday. By putting him on the low-pay Extra Board he gets screwed out of the unemployment check.


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 28, 2020)

On another travel site I read that a recent air canada flight there was no food or drink service at all. Only offer was bottled water.


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## jimmrl (Apr 28, 2020)

I had to fly last week to get my mom from the Rio Grande Valley and no food or drinks, nothing. The good thing was that so few people are flying it was built in social distancing.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 29, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> On another travel site I read that a recent air canada flight there was no food or drink service at all. Only offer was bottled water.


There was a report on the Washington Post from one of their reporters who recently flew home from Istanbul on Turkish Airways. All they got for food was a sandwich in a sealed bag served by flight attendants in full hazmat gear.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 29, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s understandable for Amtrak to cut the diners with the limited # of passengers.
> 
> It’s understandable for passengers to expect what they paid for.
> 
> It’s not an either or. If a passenger is disappointed they can call customer service and possibly get a reimbursement. I was once reimbursed after complaining about an express menu being the only option given to me.




This is not just a matter of a limited number of passengers. The more elaborate the food service, the more people need to come to work to provide it. The more people who come to work, the greater the risk to both them and the customers that the disease will spread. Sure, on a long trip, you need to feed the pax something to keep them from getting hangry, but there's no need to make the risks higher than they need to be, just because some passenger with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement thinks they "paid" for some kind of full service dining. 

Be happy there are still trains running. These are extraordinary times, nobody should expect full dining service anywhere. I can't even find it in my neighborhood, why should I expect to find it on the train?


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## crescent-zephyr (Apr 29, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Be happy there are still trains running. These are extraordinary times, nobody should expect full dining service anywhere. I can't even find it in my neighborhood, why should I expect to find it on the train?



You have options that are more than microwaved dinners in your neighborhood. On a 2 day trip it would be nice if they could have kept a chef and an LSA to offer at-room at-seat service. 

But again, I understand the decision.


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## me_little_me (Apr 29, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Be happy there are still trains running. These are extraordinary times, nobody should expect full dining service anywhere. I can't even find it in my neighborhood, why should I expect to find it on the train?


No, but they shouldn't expect to pay for it anyway as its cost is included in the fare. And they should expect to receive a decent meal even if Amtrak has to pick up takeout from a place along the way.
It's similar to hotels that normally provide breakfast and other amenities. The ethical ones lower their prices when those things are not available, notify people when making reservations, or provide some sort of compensation without being asked (points, cash. vouchers). I've experienced that in a number of cases.
I still remember the New York Marriott when they had a computer failure and people had to wait an hour or more to check-in. They came around to everyone on line and offered soft drinks and snacks. Then when you got to the front of the line, you were offered choice of money off room rate, a bundle of points or, if I remember correctly, some free drinks in the bar. Nice gesture! And it was offered up front without being asked and before you even were asked your name. Pro-active offers make for good customer relations and encourage people to return when the problem is resolved.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Apr 30, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> No, but they shouldn't expect to pay for it anyway as its cost is included in the fare. And they should expect to receive a decent meal even if Amtrak has to pick up takeout from a place along the way.
> It's similar to hotels that normally provide breakfast and other amenities. The ethical ones lower their prices when those things are not available, notify people when making reservations, or provide some sort of compensation without being asked (points, cash. vouchers). I've experienced that in a number of cases.
> I still remember the New York Marriott when they had a computer failure and people had to wait an hour or more to check-in. They came around to everyone on line and offered soft drinks and snacks. Then when you got to the front of the line, you were offered choice of money off room rate, a bundle of points or, if I remember correctly, some free drinks in the bar. Nice gesture! And it was offered up front without being asked and before you even were asked your name. Pro-active offers make for good customer relations and encourage people to return when the problem is resolved.



EXACTLY! Unfortunately Amtrak and proper customer service have moved in opposite directions over the past several years.


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## 20th Century Rider (Apr 30, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> This is not just a matter of a limited number of passengers. The more elaborate the food service, the more people need to come to work to provide it. The more people who come to work, the greater the risk to both them and the customers that the disease will spread. Sure, on a long trip, you need to feed the pax something to keep them from getting hangry, but there's no need to make the risks higher than they need to be, just because some passenger with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement thinks they "paid" for some kind of full service dining.
> 
> Be happy there are still trains running. These are extraordinary times, nobody should expect full dining service anywhere. I can't even find it in my neighborhood, why should I expect to find it on the train?



Agreed! All modes of travel have been effected; providing less and with customers understanding and tolerating the logistics problems. Amtrak had been losing money and deteriorating before the pandemic so here are the questions… will the government step in to save them; and if it does, will LD travel survive? My intuitive thought is that more changes will occur now and more quickly. Depending on how soon a vaccine comes, the presidential election, and an economic comeback, anything can happen. 

Historically tragedies haven’t been good for rail travel. After WWII passenger service made a big play to ‘get rolling again’ only to be overcome by the freeway program and modernization of air travel… and RR's threw in the towel which led to the beginning of the AMTRAK era.


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## Maverickstation (May 1, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Agreed! All modes of travel have been effected; providing less and with customers understanding and tolerating the logistics problems. Amtrak had been losing money and deteriorating before the pandemic so here are the questions… will the government step in to save them; and if it does, will LD travel survive? My intuitive thought is that more changes will occur now and more quickly. Depending on how soon a vaccine comes, the presidential election, and an economic comeback, anything can happen.
> 
> Historically tragedies haven’t been good for rail travel. After WWII passenger service made a big play to ‘get rolling again’ only to be overcome by the freeway program and modernization of air travel… and RR's threw in the towel which led to the beginning of the AMTRAK era.
> View attachment 17408



Great piece of World War II era train travel history.
Many GI's returned home from service never wanting to take a train again, as my late Father, who served in the Navy, remembered to his last days, having to use a suitcase for a seat between NYC and Chicago, even on active duty.

There are a number of great books published about the original Pennsylvania Station, but one of the best is from Lorraine Dehl, tilted The Late, Great, Pennsylvania Station. In this book she goes into the emotional details of why too many people sat by when the great station was allowed to fall into disrepair and it's eventual deomolition.

Ken


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## 20th Century Rider (May 1, 2020)

The Boston Amtrak Lounge is definitely a historic marvel from the golden era; and personal favorite. The large photographs on the walls portray earlier times; the restored architecture is American Classic at its best. And not to be overlooked are the generous snacks, munchies, candy bars and wide assortment of the day's newspapers. Comfortable, spacious, and never crowded... perfect beginning for the Lake Shore journey to Chicago!


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2020)

Have their been any updates? Now that’s izaak Walton inn is reopening thinking about taking a trip. Would rather have traditional dining car food.


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## AmtrakBlue (May 23, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Have their been any updates? Now that’s izaak Walton inn is reopening thinking about taking a trip. Would rather have traditional dining car food.


Modified dining till at least 6/30/20


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## Green Maned Lion (May 23, 2020)

According to my friend, who writes for Railway Age, and is extremely reliable on this kind of information, if always somewhat on the negative (aka accurate) side of perspective, its actually going to be that way through late fall.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2020)

Green Maned Lion said:


> According to my friend, who writes for Railway Age, and is extremely reliable on this kind of information, if always somewhat on the negative (aka accurate) side of perspective, its actually going to be that way through late fall.



Was afraid of that. 

When all this started I was thinking I should take my last trips with a real diner while I still could :-/


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## Green Maned Lion (May 23, 2020)

I did that last September on the Silver Meteor. I did a small bucket-list trip that involved riding the Meteor the whole length (never had quite done that before) and spending a couple of nights at Morris Lapidus's masterpiece (that would be the Fontainebleau in Miami Beach). The train ride was good, if the food a bit disapointing. The hotel was a contradiction.

I always wanted to stay there because of its architecture, as well as the crowd that once went there (the ones that are mostly altakaka yentas if they are still alive nowadays) which is a crowd I missed quite a bit since Kutcher's became the last of the Borscht belt to close about 6 or 7 years ago. My preferences for entertainment align with them, and they don't engage in the loud types of partying people my age tend to favor. Also they tend to be a bit tight with money, making the places they frequent not quite as outrageously expensive as the ones aimed at the young-and-trying-to-prove-their-wealth crowd. 

I didn't know Miami Beach had changed so much. It's really a beautiful, really lovely, property. If you like the young-and-beautiful crowd, and you don't mind spending lots of money when on vacation, its perfect. As Abraham Lincoln once said, "Those who like that kind of thing will find it the kind of thing they like." I don't want to be critical of it; it is perfect for the crowd it aims for. I am just not a member of that crowd. At 35, I felt too old.

But then my vacation haunt pretty much since the Concord closed (unless I got a deal on Kutchers, anyway) was the recently-incinerated Inn At Pocono Manor, which had one of the finest restaurants in the Poconos, a nice-enough pool, and the kind of patronage that allowed one to have the pool to themselves, sometimes for hours at a time. I guess golfers don't like swimming.


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## Bob Dylan (May 23, 2020)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I did that last September on the Silver Meteor. I did a small bucket-list trip that involved riding the Meteor the whole length (never had quite done that before) and spending a couple of nights at Morris Lapidus's masterpiece (that would be the Fontainebleau in Miami Beach). The train ride was good, if the food a bit disapointing. The hotel was a contradiction.
> 
> I always wanted to stay there because of its architecture, as well as the crowd that once went there (the ones that are mostly altakaka yentas if they are still alive nowadays) which is a crowd I missed quite a bit since Kutcher's became the last of the Borscht belt to close about 6 or 7 years ago. My preferences for entertainment align with them, and they don't engage in the loud types of partying people my age tend to favor. Also they tend to be a bit tight with money, making the places they frequent not quite as outrageously expensive as the ones aimed at the young-and-trying-to-prove-their-wealth crowd.
> 
> ...


I still remember going up into the Catskills in the Summer ( while stationed in Conn) and attending a few Shows @ the Famous Jewish Resort/Horels where so many famous Comedians performed.

I also got to see Wilt Chamberlain play Basketball ( think it was @ Kutchers??) since the Hotels hired College Athletes in the Summer to work @ Menial jobs and play Sports as Entertainment for the Husbands and Kids during the day.


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## Skyline (May 23, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Have their been any updates? Now that’s izaak Walton inn is reopening thinking about taking a trip. Would rather have traditional dining car food.




Great news that Walton is reopening. I was afraid the C-19 virus might be fatal to their business plan. It's an expensive place to keep operating, and their patronage ebbs and flows a lot even during normal times.

The Walton Inn may not have fully "traditional dining car food," but you won't be disappointed. Not sure what kind of C-19 modifications to their dining is being considered, but it will likely involve social distancing and elimination of up to 50% of seating. Same as most restaurants.


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## Barb Stout (May 23, 2020)

Skyline said:


> Great news that Walton is reopening. I was afraid the C-19 virus might be fatal to their business plan. It's an expensive place to keep operating, and their patronage ebbs and flows a lot even during normal times.
> 
> The Walton Inn may not have fully "traditional dining car food," but you won't be disappointed. Not sure what kind of C-19 modifications to their dining is being considered, but it will likely involve social distancing and elimination of up to 50% of seating. Same as most restaurants.


I would imagine if the dining area is "full", you could get takeout to take back to your caboose room. That might be just as fun.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 23, 2020)

To be clear, I was asking about dining on the trains that I would be taking to get to the lodge. 

I doubt the lodge will be full with everything going on right now, so probably not too difficult to keep the restaurant at 50%.


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## MARC Rider (May 23, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> The Boston Amtrak Lounge is definitely a historic marvel from the golden era; and personal favorite. The large photographs on the walls portray earlier times; the restored architecture is American Classic at its best. And not to be overlooked are the generous snacks, munchies, candy bars and wide assortment of the day's newspapers. Comfortable, spacious, and never crowded... perfect beginning for the Lake Shore journey to Chicago!
> 
> View attachment 17412
> 
> View attachment 17413


Well, maybe, but for me, it's the perfect beginning for an Acela ride to Baltimore. Or a great place to hang out while I wait for Enterprise to pick me up to get my rental car.


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## MARC Rider (May 23, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> No, but they shouldn't expect to pay for it anyway as its cost is included in the fare. And they should expect to receive a decent meal even if Amtrak has to pick up takeout from a place along the way.
> It's similar to hotels that normally provide breakfast and other amenities. The ethical ones lower their prices when those things are not available, notify people when making reservations, or provide some sort of compensation without being asked (points, cash. vouchers). I've experienced that in a number of cases.
> I still remember the New York Marriott when they had a computer failure and people had to wait an hour or more to check-in. They came around to everyone on line and offered soft drinks and snacks. Then when you got to the front of the line, you were offered choice of money off room rate, a bundle of points or, if I remember correctly, some free drinks in the bar. Nice gesture! And it was offered up front without being asked and before you even were asked your name. Pro-active offers make for good customer relations and encourage people to return when the problem is resolved.


Sorry, customers don't "deserve" anything. The only reason any business would want to go to the trouble of providing service unrelated to their business is because they think it will attract more net revenue. If it doesn't do that, than why bother. We've just spent the past 25 years in the airline industry experiencing incredible degradation of service, and until this epidemic hit, the airline industry was making money hand over fist. Why the hell should they waste money providing "service" when the rubes are going to fly anyway, and the managers and investors in the company can pocket that money?


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## Green Maned Lion (May 23, 2020)

Excuse me, but lets talk about airlines for a moment. I'd like to discuss what making money hand over fist would be; Can we agree for a moment that making at least five times the return on a US Treasury Bond on their assets, which is among the safest place to put your money, would be required? I think that's a fair assessment. Ok then. 

For last year, selected domestic airlines

30 year US Treasury Bond Yield: 1.37% = base line of 6.89%
United Airlines- net profit 2.43%, return on assets 3.84%
American Airlines- net profit -1.69%, return on assets 2.21%
Delta Air Lines- Net Profit 7.76%, return on assets 5.07%
Southwest Airlines- Net Profit 8.46%, return on assets 5.47%
Average: Net Profit 4.24%, return on assets: 4.15%

Airlines don't make money hand-over-fist, and have not done so for decades. Period, end of discussion. There is a massive amount of capital investment, a huge amount of labor cost, tons of required maintenance, and a strong pressure to keep the prices of everything down. I admit Southwest would qualify as doing ok, but the rest of those four selected companies are businesses I- and Warren Buffet- do not recommend investing in.

Amtrak's fair box recovery is 94% roughly last year; it would be fairly reasonable to express that average as 104.24% fare box recovery for airlines. Profitable, sure. Hand over fist? Hardly.


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## Katibeth (May 23, 2020)

Sorry if I missed it somewhere. Has anyone taken sleeper service on the CL or SM during Covid? Hoping you can still have meals delivered to your room. Any information would be most appreciated. Planning trip in Nov/Dec. Thanks in advance.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 24, 2020)

Katibeth said:


> Hoping you can still have meals delivered to your room.



They are encouraging people to eat in their room and/or at their seats. 

It also seems a great deal of the cafes and lounges cars have gone carry out. The tables/booths in the lounge/cafe will not be available for use.


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## me_little_me (May 24, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Sorry, customers don't "deserve" anything. The only reason any business would want to go to the trouble of providing service unrelated to their business is because they think it will attract more net revenue. If it doesn't do that, than why bother. We've just spent the past 25 years in the airline industry experiencing incredible degradation of service, and until this epidemic hit, the airline industry was making money hand over fist. Why the hell should they waste money providing "service" when the rubes are going to fly anyway, and the managers and investors in the company can pocket that money?


I disagree. You do NOT just pay for transportation. Amtrak advertises what's included in the cost. When they fail to provide that which is advertised at the time you purchase your tickets, they may have words in the contract forced upon you (and it is forced upon you in that you agree or don't use their services as buried in their terms of contract) but they morally and possibly legally should be required to provided that service or compensate you for the loss. Now, once they change their advertising and their list of what is actually provided to clearly indicate what is now provided, then, if you make a reservation, you are entitled to only what is included. Anything else is dishonest and unethical IMHO and the only reason they get away with it is the predominance of sleazy lawyers and executives, the control of the market by getting rid of competition, and their ability to manipulate the laws against those with lesser or no power.
I would expect a government corporation (and think it's just semantics to claim it is anything else) to provide a better standard of honesty and ethics (yes, I know, ethics, lawmakers and politicians constitute a plethora of oxymorons) than the typical corporation and set an example of honest and fair business dealings.
Yes, most companies provide "amenities" outside of their main business to attract customers. That doesn't mean that someone that took them up on that offer should be deprived of that amenity because the company decided it would or could not provide it as the cost of that amenity is priced into the product. If the company can't or won't provide what they said they would, then compensation is in order. Advertising a service and selling tickets based on that advertised service then pulling the plug on that service without compensation to those rightly expecting it is dishonest. Once someone has purchased a ticket, they are usually committed to other related expenses so it is not sufficient to tell them that they can get their money back (and Amtrak only does that for Covid) but did not do it for the change in the food service when they introduced the new "flex dining" even though they saved money in both cases by changing service levels.


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## MARC Rider (May 24, 2020)

Actually, I don't think Amtrak has any legal obligation to offer any food service at all. Look at the fine print on the conditions of carriage or whatever they call it, I'm sure all they're obligated to do is get you to the destination. 

Every transportation provider is cutting back on the amenities due to Covid-19. I just read an article in the Washington Post of a reporter's account of a repatriation flight she took from France back to the US. Air France offered NO food and beverage service on one segment, and tossed shrink-wrapped sandwiches to the passengers on the other flight. No inflight service on the domestic leg on Delta, either. She didn't say what she had to pay for the flights, but it didn't sound like she got any discount for the reduced service. She seemed to be happy just to be able to get home in one piece.

Under the current conditions, the less interaction between crew and passengers, the better in order to prevent spread of the virus, and the crew are at far greater risk than the passengers, because they're on board, being exposed to different people every day. Under these conditions, contemporary flex meals, for all their shortcomings, are perfectly fine. And it really displays a rather self-absorbed sense of entitlement to whine about this sort of thing when we're lucky we still have reliable transportation around the country, even during a so-called "lockdown."


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## MARC Rider (May 24, 2020)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Excuse me, but lets talk about airlines for a moment. I'd like to discuss what making money hand over fist would be; Can we agree for a moment that making at least five times the return on a US Treasury Bond on their assets, which is among the safest place to put your money, would be required? I think that's a fair assessment. Ok then.
> 
> For last year, selected domestic airlines
> 
> ...


Well, that may be true, but they seemed to have enough cash on hand to be able to do all those stock buybacks that out their companies in peril when this crisis hit, and I'm sure their top executives are well compensated.


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## Chatter163 (May 24, 2020)

Green Maned Lion said:


> I did that last September on the Silver Meteor. I did a small bucket-list trip that involved riding the Meteor the whole length (never had quite done that before) and spending a couple of nights at Morris Lapidus's masterpiece (that would be the Fontainebleau in Miami Beach). The train ride was good, if the food a bit disapointing. The hotel was a contradiction.
> 
> I always wanted to stay there because of its architecture, as well as the crowd that once went there (the ones that are mostly altakaka yentas if they are still alive nowadays) which is a crowd I missed quite a bit since Kutcher's became the last of the Borscht belt to close about 6 or 7 years ago. My preferences for entertainment align with them, and they don't engage in the loud types of partying people my age tend to favor. Also they tend to be a bit tight with money, making the places they frequent not quite as outrageously expensive as the ones aimed at the young-and-trying-to-prove-their-wealth crowd.
> 
> ...


I worked at the Fontainebleau for many years while it was a Hilton. I was the unofficial staff historian, so I was conversant about the hotel and Miami Beach, during the glory days of the fifties and sixties, the decline in the seventies, and rebirth in the eighties and nineties. I left Miami in 2003, was back several times over the decade that followed, and was given a complete tour of the completelay refurbished hotel in 2013. I hope to be back at the end of next month.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 24, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, that may be true, but they seemed to have enough cash on hand to be able to do all those stock buybacks that out their companies in peril when this crisis hit, and I'm sure their top executives are well compensated.



Their top executives are overcompensated; that is one of the reasons their profit margins, like far too many US corporations, are razor thin. Unfortunately, in our market, "standard" compensation for these types of positions have become ludicrous. The problem with that is you are essentially required to pay those ludicrous prices to recruit top talent, because you are competing with other companies that are willing to pay such silly salaries and bonuses. I think there should be regulation and taxation that discourages such absurd compensations... but they are the industry norm now, and as such are a legitimate, if unfortunate, cost of doing business.

The only fair way to judge a company's monetary health is its profit margin and its return on assets. Otherwise you can have a company like Wal-Mart who has pathetic profits for the money involved being compared to a company like Boscov's which makes a fraction of what Wal-Mart does- but who has a healthy profit margin. The problem with a direct dollars to dollars comparison is Boscov's is a small 50-store chain whose yearly revenue isn't as large as Wal-Mart's net profit. 

A tiny percentage of profit, however, can result in a sizable-sounding amount of money that can be poorly reinvested in such financial shenanigans as share buybacks. 

Let me put it another way: Is a billion dollars a lot of money? The answer is, unequivocally, it depends. As a private citizen, as your asset number, yeah, heck of a lot of money. To build a high speed line from Washington D.C. to Los Angeles? Absurdly cheap. That's under $3 per person living in America.

Is a trillion dollars a lot of money? Under most circumstances, yes. If it was our gross domestic product, god help us. See my point?



Chatter163 said:


> I worked at the Fontainebleau for many years while it was a Hilton. I was the unofficial staff historian, so I was conversant about the hotel and Miami Beach, during the glory days of the fifties and sixties, the decline in the seventies, and rebirth in the eighties and nineties. I left Miami in 2003, was back several times over the decade that followed, and was given a complete tour of the completelay refurbished hotel in 2013. I hope to be back at the end of next month.



As I said, it truly is a beautiful property, just not my cup of tea.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, I don't think Amtrak has any legal obligation to offer any food service at all. Look at the fine print on the conditions of carriage or whatever they call it, I'm sure all they're obligated to do is get you to the destination.



Amtrak sleeping car prices include meals. They can’t stop providing meals and charge the same price. They can, and are, lowering the quality of said meals. There is no guarantee of a particular menu, but they do have to provide the basics of what they advertised.


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## Katibeth (May 24, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> They are encouraging people to eat in their room and/or at their seats.
> 
> It also seems a great deal of the cafes and lounges cars have gone carry out. The tables/booths in the lounge/cafe will not be available for use.


Thanks for the information.


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## jis (May 24, 2020)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Amtrak's fair box recovery is 94% roughly last year; it would be fairly reasonable to express that average as 104.24% fare box recovery for airlines. Profitable, sure. Hand over fist? Hardly.


Also, the consistent profitability of airlines is a relatively recent phenomenon, after most of them have transitioned their service profile to align better with LCC level services domestically from the sort of service that folks here seem to insist Amtrak must provide. Is there some sort of a subliminal message hidden there somewhere? Who knows?


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## jis (May 24, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak sleeping car prices include meals. They can’t stop providing meals and charge the same price. They can, and are, lowering the quality of said meals. There is no guarantee of a particular menu, but they do have to provide the basics of what they advertised.


Of course they can. All that they have to do is announce that they are withdrawing complementary food service, and then we can watch this site explode.

Of course it is probably not the best way to achieve that. A more prudent way would be to drop the price some like they did with the Star, and then gently raise the fare to the previous level over many months. Frog in a pan full of water on a stove typically will sit there until it is too late to jump out.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2020)

jis said:


> Of course they can. All that they have to do is announce that they are withdrawing complementary food service, and then we can watch this site explode.
> 
> Of course it is probably not the best way to achieve that. A more prudent way would be to drop the price some like they did with the Star, and then gently raise the fare to the previous level over may months. Frog in a pan full of water on a stove typically will sit there until it is too late to jump out.



Well yeah, if they don’t advertise a service they don’t have to provide it.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2020)

Well.... I just spent some time over at FlyerTalk and people are getting pretty much nothing on the major airlines. Bag of cheezits and a bottle of water in delta first class!

If the airlines, hotels, and Amtrak don’t want our business, then the travel industry will never recover.


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## Chatter163 (May 24, 2020)

Green Maned Lion said:


> As I said, it truly is a beautiful property, just not my cup of tea.



The emphasis on the young jet set is entirely a product of the post-Hilton era. Hip-hoppers and Victoria’s Secret have functions there now. The Hilton era focused more on large conventions and tourists, the latter both domestic and foreign. It’s working well for them, but that’s not what the hotel historically was, before or during the Hilton era, which was 1978-2005.

Other than a few knowledgeable bellmen, I was one of the only employees at night who could give directions from the hotel to the Amtrak station.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 24, 2020)

Chatter163 said:


> Other than a few knowledgeable bellmen, I was one of the only employees at night who could give directions from the hotel to the Amtrak station.



neither could the taxi-driver, lol


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## Anderson (May 25, 2020)

Katibeth said:


> Sorry if I missed it somewhere. Has anyone taken sleeper service on the CL or SM during Covid? Hoping you can still have meals delivered to your room. Any information would be most appreciated. Planning trip in Nov/Dec. Thanks in advance.


It was back in March on the Meteor, and service was basically as it had been. I was also one of about 20 pax on the train.


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## Michigan Mom (May 25, 2020)

Chatter163 said:


> I worked at the Fontainebleau for many years while it was a Hilton. I was the unofficial staff historian, so I was conversant about the hotel and Miami Beach, during the glory days of the fifties and sixties, the decline in the seventies, and rebirth in the eighties and nineties. I left Miami in 2003, was back several times over the decade that followed, and was given a complete tour of the completelay refurbished hotel in 2013. I hope to be back at the end of next month.



Walked through the Fontainbleau to explore, last summer with my kids. In no way could afford to stay there, however we did splurge for a lovely meal. Stunning architecture indoors and out, lovely grounds. It was a crowded weekend and the patrons seemed for the most part to be dripping money, meaning in an ostentatious way, which, if you've got it, flaunt it, I suppose. 
Money spent is often about expectations. I've probably got less expectations nowadays of Amtrak food service than some others; as a result I'm not likely to be as disappointed by it. OTOH if that meal at the Fontainbleau wasn't superb then yes I'd have had an issue with it


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## MARC Rider (May 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak sleeping car prices include meals. They can’t stop providing meals and charge the same price. They can, and are, lowering the quality of said meals. There is no guarantee of a particular menu, but they do have to provide the basics of what they advertised.


I should think that most of us realize that all sorts of companies advertise all sorts of things, and then don't deliver on their promises. If that were illegal, then most business owners would be sitting in jail right now.

While the fares "include meals," I wouldn't be surprised if the was fine print somewhere that gives the company the right to omit them under certain circumstances. 
Also, I suspect that Amtrak has the right to unilaterally change the conditions of carriage without adjusting the fares. They could also announce that they're no longer including meals and keep the fares the same with no legal impediment. It's up to the customer to decide whether or not this is a suitable value proposition. If the customer thinks not, they can either not travel or use another method of travel. 

Welcome to the Free Enterprise-Free Market System.


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## RichieRich (May 25, 2020)

Chatter163 said:


> Other than a few knowledgeable bellmen, I was one of the only employees at night who could give directions from the hotel to the Amtrak station.


Ahhh....the Fontainbleau. Remember Surfside 6, the Boom Boom Room, Kitty ????


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## MARC Rider (May 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well.... I just spent some time over at FlyerTalk and people are getting pretty much nothing on the major airlines. Bag of cheezits and a bottle of water in delta first class!
> 
> If the airlines, hotels, and Amtrak don’t want our business, then the travel industry will never recover.


Actually, it depends whether people travel because they want or need to get somewhere or whether they travel to enjoy service amenities. 

From a public policy point of view a long-term significant drop in overall travel could be considered a Good Thing. In addition to slowing the spread of diseases, it would greatly reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Thus, it might be a good policy to devise ways to make traveling as unpleasant as possible -- lousy food, uncomfortable seats, staff who bark at passengers like drill sergeants, inflexible refund policies, etc. This would keep more people at home. Maybe people would start walking instead. Much more healthy than lounging around in a comfortable reclining seat or sleeper cabin and eating tasty gourmet food. Of course, it might not work, because it might turn out that most travelers don't really care about the amenities, they just want to get to their destination.


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## jis (May 25, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Actually, it depends whether people travel because they want or need to get somewhere or whether they travel to enjoy service amenities.
> 
> Of course, it might not work, because it might turn out that most travelers don't really care about the amenities, they just want to get to their destination.


The experience of the airlines would suggest this to be a fact of life. Southwest set the ball rolling and the rest as they say is history. Luxury air travel segment domestically is a niche, not a necessity in terms of sustaining the economy of the travel industry. All the statistics on the subject pretty much align with that conclusion.


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## Rasputin (May 25, 2020)

I can put up with a lot of guff and inconvenience on airlines because, with flying in the US, the plane generally gets you where you (want) (need) to go in a relatively short amount of time so the pain is finite. I don't care whether I get anything to eat or not but a can of tomato juice and a snack is nice.

With Amtrak, I am going for the comfort and a more pleasant (generally) experience. If the Amtrak experience is downgraded it will tend to push me onto the plane more often. I don't think I am alone in this view.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 25, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I should think that most of us realize that all sorts of companies advertise all sorts of things, and then don't deliver on their promises. If that were illegal, then most business owners would be sitting in jail right now.



it’s not really criminal, it’s tortious. That is to say, the crime is a breach of contract tort. They happen all the time; they are not investigated by the police; it is up to you, the injured party, to seek remedy through a law suit. That is one of the reasons this is such a litigious society. There is a lot of things to litigate legitimately.


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## tricia (May 25, 2020)

About the Fontainebleau ... I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Allan Sherman song "Streets of Miami."


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## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2020)

jis said:


> Southwest set the ball rolling and the rest as they say is history.



Service wise southwest has been consistently very good in my experiences. The free checked bags and no cancellation fees are wonderful. 

The only problem is the cramped 3 across seats. Usually I can find a delta or American first class seat for just a little more $$$ if my travel times are flexible.


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## jis (May 25, 2020)

Well, Amtrak passengers complain about food service as far as I can tell as their one primary theme. Southwest is not much into that and that has never harmed them.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2020)

jis said:


> Well, Amtrak passengers complain about food service as far as I can tell as their one primary theme. Southwest is not much into that and that has never harmed them.



Huh? Southwest offers free drinks and snacks to all passengers. And is always sending me coupons for free alcohol.

By contrast Amtrak business class passengers get less than southwest passengers.


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## Rasputin (May 25, 2020)

jis said:


> Well, Amtrak passengers complain about food service as far as I can tell as their one primary theme. Southwest is not much into that and that has never harmed them.


When you are on a two or three day train trip (four days on the Canadian, isn't it?) the quality and quantity of food takes on a significant relevance. On a three or four hour flight on a plane, I consider food to be quite irrelevant.


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## jis (May 25, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> When you are on a two or three day train trip (four days on the Canadian, isn't it?) the quality and quantity of food takes on a significant relevance. On a three or four hour flight on a plane, I consider food to be quite irrelevant.


That is true, but to address that one does not require gourmet Diner service, which some appear to wish to have on Amtrak as precondition to their deigning to set foot on Amtrak, because you know? How can anyone descend to traveling by train without that?. 

A good Cafe service is perfectly adequate to address that.



crescent-zephyr said:


> Huh? Southwest offers free drinks and snacks to all passengers. And is always sending me coupons for free alcohol.
> 
> By contrast Amtrak business class passengers get less than southwest passengers.


So you are already agreeing with me that not having complementary food on Amtrak in BC and Coach has little impact on ridership? Afterall it has been growing by leaps and bounds before this calamity hit?


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## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2020)

jis said:


> So you are already agreeing with me that not having complementary food on Amtrak in BC and Coach has little impact on ridership? Afterall it has been growing by leaps and bounds before this calamity hit?



I was disagreeing with your comment on southwest. I think the quality of the experience should be something all businesses take into account. I think offering free bottled water and a snack pack in coach on long distance trains should be standard. Just my opinion. Would it affect ridership? Not as much as good time keeping, clean trains, and good and consistent customer service.


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## MARC Rider (May 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Service wise southwest has been consistently very good in my experiences. The free checked bags and no cancellation fees are wonderful.
> 
> The only problem is the cramped 3 across seats. Usually I can find a delta or American first class seat for just a little more $$$ if my travel times are flexible.


Where can you find first class seats for just a few $$$ more than seats on Southwest? I've stopped looking up first class fares because they are so many more multiples of the coach fares that it's not even worth considering for a domestic flight that hardly ever exceeds 5-6 hours and is usually a lot less.

Even on the long intercontinental flights; out of idle curiosity when I went to Beijing, I considered upgrading my government-issued coach seat. Business class (the top class on the flight, with lie-flat seats) was a good $2,000 over the coach fares (about $500). I did upgrade to Economy Plus for an extra $200, not for the food (which was the same as coach and even worse than Amtrak contemporary flex) but for the legroom, and the fact that I had a whole 3-seat row to myself.


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## MARC Rider (May 25, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Huh? Southwest offers free drinks and snacks to all passengers. And is always sending me coupons for free alcohol.
> 
> By contrast Amtrak business class passengers get less than southwest passengers.


The drinks and snacks are nothing to write home about. The wine is plonk. (And I try, even if I don't always succeed, to avoid drinking alcohol while flying, as it dehydrates and give one a headache.) 

That said, Southwest's free bag policy is definitely good, but I basically find that adding the Early-bird check-in fee is mandatory if you want a decent crack at getting an aisle seat or the seats by the exit row (row 12) that have more legroom. But the best thing about Southwest for me is that BWI is my home airport, and Southwest has more direct and nonstop flights to more places than other airlines.


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## MARC Rider (May 25, 2020)

Most Amtrak passengers, including those riding on long-distance trains, ride relatively short trips that don't necessarily require much in the way of food service. The point of premium service, like first/business class and sleeper class would be to get extra revenue per passenger mile. According to the RPA figures, they do that very well. However, because of the opaque accounting, we don't know whether how much of that extra revenue gets eaten up by the extra costs of providing the premium service. What they need to do is find the sweet spot in premium service that provides a good product that won't suck up much of the extra premium class revenue. Also a product for the minority of coach passengers who do travel long distance that can bring in some more net revenue from both increased passenger loads and food sales.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 26, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Where can you find first class seats for just a few $$$ more than seats on Southwest? I've stopped looking up first class fares because they are so many more multiples of the coach fares that it's not even worth considering for a domestic flight that hardly ever exceeds 5-6 hours and is usually a lot less.



I use google matrix for all my flight searches. You have to be flexible with times and days, but it’s worked for me. First class domestic is well worth the price for my poor back to be happy. Same with a roomette on Amtrak.


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## Green Maned Lion (May 26, 2020)

Who cares what seat you are in on a plane? You are still flying, and if god meant man to fly, he would have been born with wings.


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## 20th Century Rider (May 26, 2020)

Rasputin said:


> When you are on a two or three day train trip (four days on the Canadian, isn't it?) the quality and quantity of food takes on a significant relevance. On a three or four hour flight on a plane, I consider food to be quite irrelevant.


When going from Eugene OR to NYC or WAS or BOS, as I've done many times, it's a four night five day trip. The food does become a big deal; and even with the temporary elimination of the 'standard' full menu service on western LD trains... that became boring after a while. Amtrak may or may not bring that back the somewhat limited 'full service dining.' For most of us traveling by train... it is an elective experience because we love trains. Prices will continue to climb on sleeper service regardless of the consistently downgraded food service. Ultimately to really enjoy the experience the Amtrak LD traveler will need to bring along those nifty picnic items that can keep for a few days, or get some upscale takeout available at major stations in the east and CHI. This is today's reality.


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## me_little_me (May 26, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> I should think that most of us realize that all sorts of companies advertise all sorts of things, and then don't deliver on their promises. If that were illegal, then most business owners would be sitting in jail right now.


Breach of Contract and/or failure to deliver advertised products or services rarely rise to the level of being considered criminal. Generally, it is considered to be a civil matter settled by lawsuits or forced (by the big guy) arbitration because a contract is considered legally binding. However, the way contracts are by the big guy's lawyers, it's tough to beat them. That's why the Court of Public Opinion works so well.


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## Maverickstation (May 29, 2020)

Traditional Dining is on hold through June 30th (save for the Auto Train).









Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com


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## Green Maned Lion (May 29, 2020)

That’s the official version. From what I understand it is going to be October or so- if it is ever restored.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 30, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Sorry, customers don't "deserve" anything. The only reason any business would want to go to the trouble of providing service unrelated to their business is because they think it will attract more net revenue. If it doesn't do that, than why bother.


Amtrak still _advertises_ all the little niceties people might hope to experience with pictures of features and amenities that were removed years ago. It's only when people board the train they finally realize those photos don't represent the actual product being sold. Do customers really not deserve the product being advertised to them?



MARC Rider said:


> We've just spent the past 25 years in the airline industry experiencing incredible degradation of service, and until this epidemic hit, the airline industry was making money hand over fist. Why the hell should they waste money providing "service" when the rubes are going to fly anyway, and the managers and investors in the company can pocket that money?


The top brass and captain class do very well but the airlines themselves still need billions in taxpayer bailouts every few years just to remain solvent. When I'm flying internationally I avoid US airlines precisely because their service is crap and the customers either don't know any better or enjoy the masochism.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 30, 2020)

jis said:


> That is true, but to address that one does not require gourmet Diner service, which some appear to wish to have on Amtrak as precondition to their deigning to set foot on Amtrak, because you know? How can anyone descend to traveling by train without that?


What I've seen are people saying they want Amtrak to go back to what they used to serve a few years ago. Calling those meals gourmet food is a bit of a straw man stretch. If Amtrak doesn't want to serve better food they can lower the cost to reflect the reduced standard of service. It's the combination of paying top dollar fares for generic meal service that gets to me.



MARC Rider said:


> Where can you find first class seats for just a few $$$ more than seats on Southwest? I've stopped looking up first class fares because they are so many more multiples of the coach fares that it's not even worth considering for a domestic flight that hardly ever exceeds 5-6 hours and is usually a lot less.


I can usually find good airfare by being flexible with dates, durations, and destinations. On any given day there are a half dozen places I'd enjoy visiting if the price was right. The people who struggle the most to find deals are the folks who choose a specific place and date and _then_ look for a low price. The variable that most people seem to focus on (when to buy) is also the most difficult to reliably predict. I've lost count of the number of times a supposedly educated person came to a travel forum with dates and destination already locked-in hoping someone could tell them _that_ trip goes on sale the third Tuesday of the month at half past four in the afternoon.


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## MARC Rider (May 30, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The people who struggle the most to find deals are the folks who choose a specific place and date and _then_ look for a low price.


Well, isn't that the way most people travel? Not everybody is retired with no other family obligations and unlimited time on their hands and a desire to just travel wherever the fare is cheapest. Thus, business/first class travel is totally out of reach for most people.


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## Devil's Advocate (May 30, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, isn't that the way most people travel? Not everybody is retired with no other family obligations and unlimited time on their hands and a desire to just travel wherever the fare is cheapest. Thus, business/first class travel is totally out of reach for most people.


I have a standard white collar office job and travel with/to friends and family just like millions of other people. The main difference is that I keep my options open and look for deals _before_ I request time off. On those occasions when I have a specific place and time to be I simply pay the going rate rather than pretend I have any control over when the price might drop in the future. For most of my life First and Business class were out of my reach but I'm a tall guy and as coach class kept shrinking my priorities changed and I started traveling less often in order to have a budget large enough to keep my knees from being crushed.


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## crescent-zephyr (May 30, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Well, isn't that the way most people travel? Not everybody is retired with no other family obligations and unlimited time on their hands and a desire to just travel wherever the fare is cheapest. Thus, business/first class travel is totally out of reach for most people.



I’m certainly not retired. It’s really easy to search for travel deals. I’ve also stayed at the Palmer house Hilton with executive level access for under $100 per night on a summer weekend.


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## Thirdrail7 (May 30, 2020)

The Acela first-class meals have been reduced to some sort of box "thing." The breakfast doesn't involve hot food and the lunch/dinner seems like some sort of cheese and meat tray. 

I doubt there will be anyone on board to notice.


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## Mark P (Jun 1, 2020)

Bummed that flexible dining was extended through the month of June. Departing LAX on SW Chief on 6/29, looks like I'll be dining flexibly for 3 days...


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 1, 2020)

Mark P said:


> Bummed that flexible dining was extended through the month of June. Departing LAX on SW Chief on 6/29, looks like I'll be dining flexibly for 3 days...



Does anyone actually believe it’s ever coming back?


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## Mark P (Jun 1, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Does anyone actually believe it’s ever coming back?


I do, yes.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 1, 2020)

There’s a term for thinking that. It’s called unreasonable optimism. Or perhaps irrational exuberance.

Forget dining. You’re going to be lucky to have a train two years from now.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 1, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Does anyone actually believe it’s ever coming back?


Full service dining seems unlikely to return under the current rules and conditions, but that's not the same thing as _never_ coming back. Amtrak has survived threats I thought would take it down in the past and with the right government almost anything is possible, even improved dining. I do expect that Amtrak is going to need a lot more activism in the near future than it has required in the recent past. My representative is pro-rail but my senators are anti-rail. The best I can do is help convince them not to actively attack Amtrak during the next round of budget negotiations.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 1, 2020)

Mark P said:


> Bummed that flexible dining was extended through the month of June. Departing LAX on SW Chief on 6/29, looks like I'll be dining flexibly for 3 days...


Be sure and Stock up on some Real Food and Drink for your trip!!!


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 2, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Full service dining seems unlikely to return under the current rules and conditions, but that's not the same thing as _never_ coming back. Amtrak has survived threats I thought would take it down in the past and with the right government almost anything is possible.



I’ll agree anything is possible. I would have never expected to be able to get scrambled eggs again after the Bob Evans breakfast scramble so I’ve been wrong before.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 2, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> I do expect that Amtrak is going to need a lot more activism in the near future than it has required in the recent past. My representative is pro-rail but my senators are anti-rail.


Sounds like one of the most important tasks for the activists (at least with regards to food service) is to keep the heat up on the creative accounting that makes providing food service look more expensive than it really is. Also, keep pushing on the idea that "premium" long distance service (i.e. the sleepers and diners) cross-subsidizes the overall net revenue for the train, and thus helps preserve necessary coach service for people traveling relatively short distances in rural areas not served by anything else. It's not spending tax dollars on "rail cruises" for rich geezers, it's having the rich geezers who want to take rail cruises support vital transportation links that connect rural America with the rest of the country.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 2, 2020)

Providing food service, especially with union employees, is actually very expensive. I don’t know where people get the idea that the costs are... Apocryphal.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 2, 2020)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Providing food service, especially with union employees, is actually very expensive. I don’t know where people get the idea that the costs are... Apocryphal.


The debate about Amtrak accounting (on the food service and other stuff) is based on the assertion that the inflated cost estimates for providing food service presented by Amtrak management include fixed-cost overhead items that are not eliminated by eliminating the service. Discussion of "union wages" may be clouded by presenting the wages "loaded" with overhead, making the workers look overpaid when they're not. I have managed contracts where labor costs were "loaded" like that, and one could get very warped ideas about what people are paid. For example, we were paying $100/hr for engineering techs, and the project manager on the contractor side, my opposite, was billed at $200/hr. I really doubt that the contractor was actually paying the Engineering tech $100/hr or the project manager $200/hr. If that were the case, I would have quit the government a long time ago. Anyway, why is there so much animus against the grunts who do this work? Don't they deserve to get paid a decent wage, even if they don't have some fancy college degree and fancy professional job?

Yeah, perhaps the union labor is more expensive than what's typical in the restaurant industry, but it's entirely possible that Amtrak could still run a decent food service program that's cost-effective. Remember, unlike a business run by a capitalist entrepreneur, the goal of Amtrak is not to maximize it's profits and get rich, but rather optimize the net revenue from the "premium class" long distance service as a way of cross-subsidizing the overall operating expense of the train. Unfortunately, we really don't know, because Amtrak accounting is so opaque that, for all we know, the dining car on the Sunset Limited gets charged for its "share" of clearing snow off the platforms in Syracuse, or electrical infrastructure on the NEC. Of course, even if the dining car on the Sunset Limited is scrapped, the costs for shoveling snow in Syracuse and electrical work on the NEC don't go away.


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## BLNT (Jun 3, 2020)

Having not read this thread, can someone summarize what we should expect food wise on the Auto Train in a couple of weeks (Bedroom) ?

THANKS


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## lordsigma (Jun 3, 2020)

BLNT said:


> Having not read this thread, can someone summarize what we should expect food wise on the Auto Train in a couple of weeks (Bedroom) ?
> 
> THANKS


On the Auto Train you will get the normal menu that's similar to what they've had the last few years (not the flexible dining - Amtrak calls it traditional dining but it's not exactly the same menu as what was served on the western trains. I would describe it as a step below that - it is a bit more institutional as they have to serve more people and there's less choices but still better than flexible dining). I wouldn't be surprised they are still encouraging (Perhaps requiring - someone with inside info or who has ridden recently may be able to clarify that) folks to eat in their room instead of going to the diner. You could probably check with Amtrak customer service to see if they are allowing people to eat in the actual diner (if you were looking to do that.)

Here is a sample menu - they do periodicly change the menu items so the entrees may not be the same but it will be a similar concept:


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Auto-Train-Dinner-Menu-Sleeper-011420.pdf


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 3, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> The debate about Amtrak accounting (on the food service and other stuff) is based on the assertion that the inflated cost estimates for providing food service presented by Amtrak management include fixed-cost overhead items that are not eliminated by eliminating the service. Discussion of "union wages" may be clouded by presenting the wages "loaded" with overhead, making the workers look overpaid when they're not. I have managed contracts where labor costs were "loaded" like that, and one could get very warped ideas about what people are paid. For example, we were paying $100/hr for engineering techs, and the project manager on the contractor side, my opposite, was billed at $200/hr. I really doubt that the contractor was actually paying the Engineering tech $100/hr or the project manager $200/hr. If that were the case, I would have quit the government a long time ago. Anyway, why is there so much animus against the grunts who do this work? Don't they deserve to get paid a decent wage, even if they don't have some fancy college degree and fancy professional job?



First of all, if I draft you a bill for services, I will make money selling you my labor. Do you really think the car techs at your local dealer makes $90-225 an hour? Because they really don’t. There are a variety of reasons for this, some perfectly legitimate about accounting for variables, and another is simply profit.

It is my understanding that Amtrak LSAs make about $35 an hour, I believe that is inclusive of benefits. If someone knows the number and disputes me, I won’t argue with you, but it is at least that. That means that a lounge/cafe car has to make $35 an hour in gross profits just to cover its labor, and I am fairly certain Amtrak doesn’t make a keystone on gross for food sales. There is also the considerable cost of buying, maintaining, and powering that entire car that has no revenue source but the food sales. I worked it out somewhere in the distant past, but if it came to less than $100 an hour in costs it would blow my mind.

If Amtrak makes a 33% mark up on food, and that would surprise me because the last catering contract I read was highway robbery practically, that means they have to sell $300 in food per hour just to break even. They could manage that on a Corridor train, most likely. However on an overnight train, let’s say the Lake Shore, they will run that car 19 hours. That is $1900 in cost. That requires $5700 in food sales. That must be done, bearing in mind that for 7 hours of the trip, that car is closed for business. It would surprise me if that was managed.

A minimally operated non-flex dining car requires an absolute minimum of three people - chef, LSA, SA. I would also presume the maintenenance to be higher, I was figuring $65 an hour for the Cafe, let’s take it to... $90? Plus your three crew, which is $105, so $195 an hour total, $3705 for the trip. That means, again assuming a likely generous 33% margin for the food, $11,115 in sales for the trip. The Lake Shore has two meals; so $5,557 per meal. Think they can manage that? I don’t. The Lake Shore carries four sleepers in peak times. That’s a maximum of 144 passengers. For the two meals, that’s minimum sales requirement of $78 a passenger. And it’s never that full, as many rooms carry only one passenger. It works out worse for a train with two sleepers and a longer trip.

Finally, allow me to explain that I point out problems like that in economic fact. I am actually pro-union; I think people should be entitled to a good living wage if they work appropriately hard. I think that is greatly beneficial to the whole economy. But that doesn’t mean that I am not going to point out that in a vacuum, meaning not including things like encouraging ridership, the food service Amtrak offers is a) expensive; and b) hard to do profitably, not impossible. That’s not a political statement, it’s a monetary reality.


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## BLNT (Jun 3, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> On the Auto Train you will get the normal menu that's similar to what they've had the last few years (not the flexible dining - Amtrak calls it traditional dining but it's not exactly the same menu as what was served on the western trains. I would describe it as a step below that - it is a bit more institutional as they have to serve more people and there's less choices but still better than flexible dining). I wouldn't be surprised they are still encouraging (Perhaps requiring - someone with inside info or who has ridden recently may be able to clarify that) folks to eat in their room instead of going to the diner. You could probably check with Amtrak customer service to see if they are allowing people to eat in the actual diner (if you were looking to do that.)
> 
> Here is a sample menu - they do periodicly change the menu items so the entrees may not be the same but it will be a similar concept:
> 
> ...



Thanks.

Yes - we actually prefer eating in our room (and that comes in handier now)!


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## RichieRich (Jun 3, 2020)

BLNT said:


> Yes - we actually prefer eating in our room (and that comes in handier now)!


If you've every tried just walking up & down the train...imagine doing it from car-to-car carrying full dinners! I'd tip the guy $10/tray right then for the effort. Another $20 on de-training for the room. And that was BEFORE the China Virus.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 3, 2020)

What’s a China virus? I hope it’s one that shatters when it impacts something.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jun 3, 2020)

RichieRich said:


> If you've every tried just walking up & down the train...imagine doing it from car-to-car carrying full dinners! I'd tip the guy $10/tray right then for the effort. Another $20 on de-training for the room. And that was BEFORE the China Virus.


The dinners are packaged and carried in a bag. If the train moves the bag simply swings with it because it has this new invention called a handle. I'd happily carry it myself if I was allowed to do so. Just curious, but did you call 2008 the "America Recession" since it started here based on American policies before infecting the whole world's economy?


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## Charles785 (Jun 3, 2020)

It would really help if dining car food servers were not unionized; why on earth should Amtrak pay the artificial wage rates for union labor; I don't think other restaurants have to contend with labor unions for their food servers.

In most of the restaurant world, servers learn very quickly that the more pleasant their people-pleasing skills are, the better their trips are.


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## RichieRich (Jun 3, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Just curious, but did you call 2008 the "America Recession" since it started here based on American policies before infecting the whole world's economy?


Where did the Hong Kong flu start? Oh, The Spanish flu. Opps, Ebola, West Nile Virus. Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, 
Ross River Fever (Australia), Japanese Encephalitis??? I could go on with dozens more...all named for origin!


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 3, 2020)

RichieRich said:


> Where did the Hong Kong flu start? Oh, The Spanish flu. Opps, Ebola, West Nile Virus. Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever,
> Ross River Fever (Australia), Japanese Encephalitis??? I could go on with dozens more...all named for origin!


Well, guess what. They decided not to name this one after the place of origin. It’s called COVID-19 - Corona Virus Disease that began in 2019.


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## caravanman (Jun 4, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> It would really help if dining car food servers were not unionized; why on earth should Amtrak pay the artificial wage rates for union labor; I don't think other restaurants have to contend with labor unions for their food servers.
> 
> In most of the restaurant world, servers learn very quickly that the more pleasant their people-pleasing skills are, the better their trips are.



Your typo second to last word points up the difference with Amtrak... Most "servers" go home to their families after work, home to their homes, their lives, to socialise and drive around, do what they please after work. Amtrak servers don't have this life, they are stuck on train "TRIPS" for many days at a stretch, even when off duty.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 4, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> It would really help if dining car food servers were not unionized; why on earth should Amtrak pay the artificial wage rates for union labor; I don't think other restaurants have to contend with labor unions for their food servers.
> 
> In most of the restaurant world, servers learn very quickly that the more pleasant their people-pleasing skills are, the better their trips are.



It would really help the food servers off of the train wouldn’t have to live on artificial wages. Artificial in that they don’t really exist. They quickly learn that they can’t pay their bills, no matter how pleasent they are because old fogies tip only artificially.


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## Qapla (Jun 4, 2020)

Tips should not be part of the servers "wage" as it is now in the US restaurant business. Tips should be "extra money" given for service - that way, even if tips are not as high as some would like, they could still pay their bills with their actual earnings - like many of us have to do because we are not in a "tip subsidized" line of work.

At the same time, it does not take being in a union to be paid a proper wage - it only takes the employer paying their employees what should be paid.


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## Green Maned Lion (Jun 4, 2020)

Qapla said:


> At the same time, it does not take being in a union to be paid a proper wage - it only takes the employer paying their employees what should be paid.



Which, unless the job is specialized, and more in demand than in supply, (ashamed to say this, but as a white, English-as-first-language, specialized house cleaner is why my wife makes a decent living) tends to require one to be in a Union.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 4, 2020)

Every time these conversations come up it amazes me how many people don’t understand how money works. 

There are so many expenses related to operating a long distance dining car. Is Amtrak doing everything right? Of course not. But the expenses are not avoidable.

Amtrak’s biggest mistake is not fully using the food service cars for additional revenue. The at your seat coach meals were a great start for using the dining car to feed additional passengers.

Having a mid-day extra cost wine tasting in between lunch and dinner service would be a great way to add revenue as well.


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## MikeM (Jun 5, 2020)

My personal thought, everytime I have ridden Amtrak in the past few years, they don't use the whole car to it's potential for seating, leaving at least four booths vacant for paperwork, conductors, etc. Plus the opportunity to do Carry-out meals, as Cresent-Zephyr says. The fixed cost is the cost of the diner, and that does not change with the volume of business. There has to be a way to better focus on meals for both classes of service, increase the throughput from the kitchen and better distribute the fixed cost of the car. Maybe you add one more server, or another person to the kitchen, but in the global scheme of the universe, that isn't the absolute end of things. When you go back to the 50's and 60's, railroads did lots of experiments like having counter - diners, where less expensive meals were served in an informal setting. This is one place where the Superliner does sort of suck, in that you have the kitchen crew trapped in the lower level and using dumbwaiters to get food to the serving area.

One final thought... the "cross country cafe" really is the worst, in that it basically turns half of the serving area into vacant space. For fun, why not create some simple pre-fab meals that could be served out of the counter area that are made in advance of the meal rush, and coach passengers could either eat in the CCC lounge area or take them back to their seats? This might require some extra effort on Amtrak's side to keep the "lounge" side aimed towards the coach section, but it would gain more volume in the diner with negligable additional cost.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 5, 2020)

MikeM said:


> One final thought... the "cross country cafe" really is the worst, in that it basically turns half of the serving area into vacant space. For fun, why not create some simple pre-fab meals that could be served out of the counter area that are made in advance of the meal rush, and coach passengers could either eat in the CCC lounge area or take them back to their seats? This might require some extra effort on Amtrak's side to keep the "lounge" side aimed towards the coach section, but it would gain more volume in the diner with negligable additional cost.



That was the exact point of the design. There was an “all day” menu available and then each meal would have additional menu items for that specific meal period. It was designed to provide take out and sit dine service using 1 LSA and 1 kitchen. It was a great idea that lasted all of a month or 2.


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## hlcteacher (Jun 5, 2020)

"spanish flu" started in oklahoma


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 5, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Having a mid-day extra cost wine tasting in between lunch and dinner service would be a great way to add revenue as well.


Remember when the Empire Builder,Coast Starlight and the Lake Shore Ltd out of Chicago had daily Wine and Cheese Tastings?

And the Pacific Parlor Car has a Bar that served Drinks,Wine and Sold Merchandise that raised Revenue.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 6, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Remember when the Empire Builder,Coast Starlight and the Lake Shore Ltd out of Chicago had daily Wine and Cheese Tastings?
> 
> And the Pacific Parlor Car has a Bar that served Drinks,Wine and Sold Merchandise that raised Revenue.



I remember them all so well. I even “won” a bottle of wine on the empire builder! 

I also remember when the parlor car timed the wine tasting so that you would be sampling a wine that came from a vineyard you passed in Oregon! 

Those were the days!


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 6, 2020)

hlcteacher said:


> "spanish flu" started in oklahoma


It appears they don’t know where it originated, but most likely NOT in Spain.









Why Was It Called the 'Spanish Flu?'


The 1918 influenza pandemic did not, as many people believed, originate in Spain.




www.google.com


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 6, 2020)

RichieRich said:


> Where did the Hong Kong flu start? Oh, The Spanish flu. Opps, Ebola, West Nile Virus. Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever,
> Ross River Fever (Australia), Japanese Encephalitis??? I could go on with dozens more...all named for origin!


The “Spanish” flu most likely did not start in Spain.









Why Was It Called the 'Spanish Flu?'


The 1918 influenza pandemic did not, as many people believed, originate in Spain.




www.google.com


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## Amtrakfflyer (Jun 6, 2020)

The one side of the CCC really is a waste. At least put 4 booths back on that side, position it next to the sleeper and let sleeper car passengers use it for a drink or to mingle. Since a lot of sleeping car passengers are seniors if nothing else it would be a shorter walk for them versus the SL lounge. 

It wouldn’t be much but it wouldn’t cost much to retrofit. You could do a intimate wine tasting at extra cost as someone else alluded to as well in it.


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## Barb Stout (Jun 6, 2020)

hlcteacher said:


> "spanish flu" started in oklahoma


I heard it was Kansas.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 6, 2020)

RichieRich said:


> Where did the Hong Kong flu start? Oh, The Spanish flu. Opps, Ebola, West Nile Virus. Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever,
> Ross River Fever (Australia), Japanese Encephalitis??? I could go on with dozens more...all named for origin!


Actually, the "Spanish flu" started in Kansas. In an Army camp in 1918. Which means it quickly spread to Europe, where there was a World War going on. Soon, soldiers and citizens of all the belligerents were getting it, but this was not being reported widely in the news media of the time, as the governments involved didn't want panic and worry about getting killed by the flu to get in the way of their soldiers killing lots of people in the war. The first place where news of the flu epidemic was widely reported was in Spain, because Spain was neutral during the war and the government didn't care if the new media reported on the subject. Thus, people got the mistaken idea that the epidemic started in Spain, hence the term "Spanish flu." It really should be called the "Kansas flu."


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 6, 2020)

Barb Stout said:


> I heard it was Kansas.


See my link above - it does mention Kansas, but they say they really don't know where it originated.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 6, 2020)

Qapla said:


> At the same time, it does not take being in a union to be paid a proper wage - it only takes the employer paying their employees what should be paid.


Unfortunately, with many employers, it takes a union, or the threat of being unionized to ensure that that employees are paid a proper wage. Back in the day when I was starting out, before unions were emasculated, you could work for McDonalds (and not as a manager) and make enough to live decently. I don't think McDonald's was unionized, even back then, but they knew if they were going to be able to attract decent employees, they'd need to pay at or close to the union scale.

And unions do more than ensure decent wages, they also ensure decent working conditions.

There are too many employers out there who are greedy cheapskates, and they need either a union or the government to keep them in line. And if they're not kept in line, it makes it harder for the decent employers to continue to treat their workers properly.


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## Ziv (Jun 6, 2020)

I will have to try Google. I usually use Kayak with a plus or minus of 3 days and then move the flight dates forward 3 days to compare, repeat ad nauseum. I have found "upgrades" to Economy Prime at United cost about 30% more than Basic Economy and all you get with Prime is a carry on bag and the choice of a window or aisle seat. First class is usually a premium of 60% to 100% of the economy fare for domestic flights, more when I fly to Narita and on to Bangkok. I also fly Delta domestically and it has similar pricing on first class, they didn't have the basic vs. prime economy seats when I last flew with them.



crescent-zephyr said:


> I use google matrix for all my flight searches. You have to be flexible with times and days, but it’s worked for me. First class domestic is well worth the price for my poor back to be happy. Same with a roomette on Amtrak.


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## me_little_me (Jun 6, 2020)

hlcteacher said:


> "spanish flu" started in oklahoma


Aha! Sounds like some foreign country to me! Perhaps we should invade it or at least blockade it.

It's just a country of Okies, Okras and homes.

The first was made into a movie when they tried to invade California in the '30s.

The second looks and tastes weird just like those other foreign veggies that only vegetablarians and those Vegas Vegans eat.

The last is something we don't need - homes in the middle of nowhere. Next they'll want rail transit.


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## me_little_me (Jun 6, 2020)

Charles785 said:


> It would really help if dining car food servers were not unionized; why on earth should Amtrak pay the artificial wage rates for union labor; I don't think other restaurants have to contend with labor unions for their food servers.
> 
> In most of the restaurant world, servers learn very quickly that the more pleasant their people-pleasing skills are, the better their trips are.


Management creates unions. When management doesn't treat their employees well, people decide to join together to protect their rights.


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## Maverickstation (Jun 19, 2020)

Traditional Dining Service, (save for the Auto Train) is now suspended through August 31, 2020.









Amtrak Traditional Dining


Most long-distance trains include a Dining car serving breakfast, lunch and dinner.




www.amtrak.com


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 19, 2020)

Maverickstation said:


> Traditional Dining Service, (save for the Auto Train) is now suspended through August 31, 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly I look for this to continue into 2021, and sadly, probably become permanent on the LD Trains!


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## lordsigma (Jun 20, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Honestly I look for this to continue into 2021, and sadly, probably become permanent on the LD Trains!


Permanent is a long time, but probably at least as long as Covid is suppressing ridership. We shall see if it goes beyond that. Alternatively I could also see them playing games and only restoring traditional dining on a couple “preferred trains” and not the others. They have talked about an “experiential service plan” On select trains in the last couple five year plans - obviously Covid is changing everything but that’s one way they could Eventually move in that Direction when Covid passes by just bringing it back to a couple select trains deemed “experiential.” If they do continue flex dining for the long run some tweaks need to be made for the western trains if they are going to stick with this type of format. There aren’t enough options or variety for trips of that long duration. One possible improvement is to offer some of the cafe options (either with a cafe car voucher or to just give the flex dining LSA some of the cafe items to serve.) One thing giving me a small glimmer of hope that the suspension may not be permanent is that Acela first class has also gotten a major downgrade (from the descriptions I’ve seen - even worse than flex dining) and I have to imagine Acela dining would go back to normal eventually once demand returns. The only train you can get a proper meal right now seems to be the auto train..

On a possible unrelated positive note interestingly I did just receive emails reference my upcoming October trip on the silver service that included this blurb - could this mean a return of the Viewliner II diners to the silver service starting on July 6th? :

Both trains will offer expanded capacity for each departure:
Five fully-refreshed Amfleet II Coach cars—offering new seating cushions, carpets, curtains, LED reading lights and ample space for physical distancing
Three Viewliner Sleeping Cars—offering customers the option to book a private Bedroom or Roomette for their trip
One Amfleet Café Car—offering meals, snacks and beverages for sale
One Viewliner II Sleeper Lounge—an exclusive space for customers in private rooms, offering complimentary flexible dining services


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 20, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Permanent is a long time, but probably at least as long as Covid is suppressing ridership. We shall see if it goes beyond that. Alternatively I could also see them playing games and only restoring traditional dining on a couple “preferred trains” and not the others. They have talked about an “experiential service plan” On select trains in the last couple five year plans - obviously Covid is changing everything but that’s one way they could Eventually move in that Direction when Covid passes by just bringing it back to a couple select trains deemed “experiential.” If they do continue flex dining for the long run some tweaks need to be made for the western trains if they are going to stick with this type of format. There aren’t enough options or variety for trips of that long duration. One possible improvement is to offer some of the cafe options (either with a cafe car voucher or to just give the flex dining LSA some of the cafe items to serve.) One thing giving me a small glimmer of hope that the suspension may not be permanent is that Acela first class has also gotten a major downgrade (from the descriptions I’ve seen - even worse than flex dining) and I have to imagine Acela dining would go back to normal eventually once demand returns. The only train you can get a proper meal right now seems to be the auto train..
> 
> On a possible unrelated positive note interestingly I did just receive emails reference my upcoming October trip on the silver service that included this blurb - could this mean a return of the Viewliner II diners to the silver service starting on July 6th? :
> 
> ...


Sure sounds like the Diners are going back on the Starvation and possibly the New Viewliner IIs on both Trains!!!???

It's a No Brainer!!!


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## Steve4031 (Jun 20, 2020)

Have they changed the meals on Acela first class?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 20, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> Have they changed the meals on Acela first class?



From post 137, earlier in the thread:



Thirdrail7 said:


> The Acela first-class meals have been reduced to some sort of box "thing." The breakfast doesn't involve hot food and the lunch/dinner seems like some sort of cheese and meat tray.
> 
> I doubt there will be anyone on board to notice.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 20, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> From post 137, earlier in the thread:



Possible just me.


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## OBS (Jun 20, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> Possible just me.


Let us know what you think!


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## Steve4031 (Jun 20, 2020)

I will do a trip report. I’m thinking Capitol limited to Washington. Acela to Boston. Lakeshore Limited back to Chicago. I’ll spend a night in Washington and Boston.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 21, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Honestly I look for this to continue into 2021, and sadly, probably become permanent on the LD Trains!


Once something is downgraded at Amtrak it seems that restoration of a former better service is gone forever... that seems to be the consistent 'track' record. Oh my, these disgusting meals have no texture, no taste, poor quality and poor quantity. I can't imagine going 4 nights & 5 days from coast to coast - each way - with such unsatisfying and monotonous food!


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 21, 2020)

It looks like the last vestige of classic food service has disappeared on Acela 1st class. As of today on the Amtrak site they indicate: 

"The safety of our passengers remains our first priority, and we thank you for taking your journey with us. In order to ensure your safety during this time, we will temporarily be offering boxed meal selections with assorted items for each meal period. Additionally, our usual selections of Acela First Class beverages are available if you desire. Glassware and ice are available upon request. We appreciate your understanding."

So sad to see that go as well. And on Amtrak, once a service is downgraded... its gone!


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## mitako (Jun 21, 2020)

Maverickstation said:


> Traditional Dining Service, (save for the Auto Train) is now suspended through August 31, 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm booked on a mid-September trip that includes the Coast Starlight and the Empire Builder, and my ticket indicates "Flexible Dining" for both. I don't expect traditional dining to ever return, which is really going to make me think twice about long trips in the future. Out of the four unappealing choices for lunch/dinner on the flexible menu -- and what's so flexible about pre-made, microwaved TV dinners that can't be customized to the diner's preference, anyway?-- there are only two I can eat. No way I'm going to pay $$$$$$ for a cross country trip that takes three days each way where I'll be switching back and forth between those two choices for 12 meals, and sad cold breakfasts.


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## me_little_me (Jun 21, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Both trains will offer expanded capacity for each departure:
> Five fully-refreshed Amfleet II Coach cars—offering new seating cushions, carpets, curtains, LED reading lights and ample space for physical distancing
> Three Viewliner Sleeping Cars—offering customers the option to book a private Bedroom or Roomette for their trip
> One Amfleet Café Car—offering meals, snacks and beverages for sale
> One Viewliner II Sleeper Lounge—an exclusive space for customers in private rooms, offering complimentary flexible dining services


Will that be before or after the use of new wonderful bedding promised last year or the ability to combine cash and points for trips promised the year before or even the appearance of the Easter bunny and Great Pumpkin?


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## Palmland (Jun 21, 2020)

I think the issue is far bigger than Amtrak's meager food offerings, at least in the era of Covid-19. I suspect all travel will encounter the same prepackaged, tasteless, processed food we now enjoy on Amtrak. We just returned from a road trip and spent two nights on the road staying at our usual moderately priced Marriott Fairfield hotels. Normally their 'free' breakfasts are pretty good with an assortment of fresh fruit, sausage or bacon, and omelets. Now everything was wrapped in cellophane and there were no hot offerings. So, while Amtrak food is a disaster, at least there is a plausible reason for it as long as we have Covid-19. I am sure Amtrak bean counters are relieved that the timing of the virus has had the unintended effect of providing some cover for flexible dining. 

I guess the only reason 'real food' exits on Auto Train is they have made a commitment to try and retain this lucrative market and with at least twice the number of sleepers as other trains it isn't practical to try and serve all passengers from a glorified cafe car and walk through 3 or 4 sleepers to the room. And certainly many paying the premium to haul their auto wouldn't be satisfied with a flexible dining box.

But of course this begs the questions, as other have noted regarding fare sales, if they can do it on A-T why not all trains.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 21, 2020)

Palmland said:


> I think the issue is far bigger than Amtrak's meager food offerings, at least in the era of Covid-19. I suspect all travel will encounter the same prepackaged, tasteless, processed food we now enjoy on Amtrak. We just returned from a road trip and spent two nights on the road staying at our usual moderately priced Marriott Fairfield hotels. Normally their 'free' breakfasts are pretty good with an assortment of fresh fruit, sausage or bacon, and omelets. Now everything was wrapped in cellophane and there were no hot offerings. So, while Amtrak food is a disaster, at least there is a plausible reason for it as long as we have Covid-19. I am sure Amtrak bean counters are relieved that the timing of the virus has had the unintended effect of providing some cover for flexible dining.
> 
> I guess the only reason 'real food' exits on Auto Train is they have made a commitment to try and retain this lucrative market and with at least twice the number of sleepers as other trains it isn't practical to try and serve all passengers from a glorified cafe car and walk through 3 or 4 sleepers to the room. And certainly many paying the premium to haul their auto wouldn't be satisfied with a flexible dining box.
> 
> But of course this begs the questions, as other have noted regarding fare sales, if they can do it on A-T why not all trains.



We all seem to be groping for a sense future as service deterioration is hastening with this pandemic. We know that most forward thinking countries have CHANGED to keep their services efficient and fulfilling demand as it exists. That means high speed rail between cities no more than 500 miles apart [only exception is China] and dense rapid transit rail in metropolitan areas. The entire concept of Amtrak is outdated; We must own up to the fact that LD service in the US and Canada is mostly for recreational travelers who have more time to spend enjoying the scenery... in the same way tourist trains do... I.E. the Blue Train in South Africa, the Venice Simplon-Orient-Express in Europe, Bernina, Express in Switzerland, The Rocky Mountaineer, The Trans-Siberian, etc. These are well managed and command a high fare... so they continue to exist. 

But Amtrak is managed by the government for transportation purposes. Works well in the populous east, and state supported commuters in Cali. 

Collectively we have a lot of wisdom regarding rail travel. What would you do if you were running Amtrak for the government... to build efficiency and meet enough demand to break even???


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## joelkfla (Jun 21, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> One Viewliner II Sleeper Lounge—an exclusive space for customers in private rooms, offering *complimentary *flexible dining services


Is it truly "complimentary"? Have the fares on the Meteor been _reduced _to the "no food" Star level (food complimentary), or have the fares on the Star been _increased_ to the previous full service dining level (food cost lumped into the fare)?


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## Steve4031 (Jun 22, 2020)

I believe the reduction in food service on the western trains will result in ridership stagnating or decreasing. This will cause Amtrak to cut more. This thought process is flawed. 

Hotels that decide not to provide breakfast service (full service and HGi type hotels) are also going to continue to suffer. I do research and call ahead and ask. When some millinial 
Nitwit cheerfully informs me that a grab and go bag serves as breakfast I cheerfully tell them I’ll stay someplace else. I’ll just pick the cheapest property in the area and find a local place serving breakfast.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 22, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> I believe the reduction in food service on the western trains will result in ridership stagnating or decreasing. This will cause Amtrak to cut more. This thought process is flawed.
> 
> Hotels that decide not to provide breakfast service (full service and HGi type hotels) are also going to continue to suffer. I do research and call ahead and ask. When some millinial
> Nitwit cheerfully informs me that a grab and go bag serves as breakfast I cheerfully tell them I’ll stay someplace else. I’ll just pick the cheapest property in the area and find a local place serving breakfast.


And that 'cheerful nitwit' was the though process behind 'contemporary dining.' I'm sure he would love that as well!


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## John-MCPO-USN (Jun 22, 2020)

I will see first hand in Aug/Sep - as I have a journey already scheduled for the end of August (Flex Dining) - on #5 and #11, and then hopefully traditional dining (on #14 and #8)......we will see (not holding my breath).


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## tricia (Jun 22, 2020)

John-MCPO-USN said:


> I will see first hand in Aug/Sep - as I have a journey already scheduled for the end of August (Flex Dining) - on #5 and #11, and then hopefully traditional dining (on #14 and #8)......we will see (not holding my breath).


 
You're wise to not hold your breath. I've got travels scheduled for September, #1 NOL to Arizona, then back to GA/NC via #4, #30, and #19, all in roomettes, and I'm already starting to think about what food to pack in my on-board cooler and suitcase. Suggest you assume Amtrak won't provide anything for sleeper passengers beyond sugar at breakfast and the same few crappy frozen dinners at lunch and dinner. Hope for the best (or at least better), prepare for the worst.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 22, 2020)

John-MCPO-USN said:


> I will see first hand in Aug/Sep - as I have a journey already scheduled for the end of August (Flex Dining) - on #5 and #11, and then hopefully traditional dining (on #14 and #8)......we will see (not holding my breath).


Guess I'm in big trouble if I hold my breath to wait for 'real' traditional rail dining service. I have actually experienced this on one of my very first rail rides in the 60's. The experience made the trip... and the best part of the vacation was the journey that got you to wherever you were actually going! Yup, I do anticipate someone will say you can get that on one of those beautifully restored private trains... but if you find one can you afford it???


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 22, 2020)

tricia said:


> You're wise to not hold your breath. I've got travels scheduled for September, #1 NOL to Arizona, then back to GA/NC via #4, #30, and #19, all in roomettes, and I'm already starting to think about what food to pack in my on-board cooler and suitcase. Suggest you assume Amtrak won't provide anything for sleeper passengers beyond sugar at breakfast and the same few crappy frozen dinners at lunch and dinner. Hope for the best (or at least better), prepare for the worst.


You can 'compensate' for the lack of Amtrak cuisine by planning some really nice gourmet items to take with... preferably something that can last a few days. Certain cheeses, meats, French bread, dried fruits, gourmet nuts, spreads, etc. are good... as well as tinned items ... even caviar! Fresh fruit and upscale chocolates for dessert maybe? Pairs well with most scenery! Be your own chef and have fun!


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 22, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> Hotels that decide not to provide breakfast service (full service and HGi type hotels) are also going to continue to suffer. I do research and call ahead and ask.



Agreed. I’ll be doing the same thing.

I think Drury Inns are still providing the full breakfast and happy hour service.



20th Century Rider said:


> Yup, I do anticipate someone will say you can get that on one of those beautifully restored private trains... but if you find one can you afford it???



Absolutely. I’ve paid more for Amtrak trips than I have paid for private car trips. That’s not to say private car trips are cheap, but neither is Amtrak! 

Plus there is always VIA Rail, if they return.


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## BoulderCO (Jun 22, 2020)

A First Class Acela trip used to be on my bucket list. Not anymore.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jun 22, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> I believe the reduction in food service on the western trains will result in ridership stagnating or decreasing. This will cause Amtrak to cut more. This thought process is flawed.
> 
> Hotels that decide not to provide breakfast service (full service and HGi type hotels) are also going to continue to suffer. I do research and call ahead and ask. When some millinial
> Nitwit cheerfully informs me that a grab and go bag serves as breakfast I cheerfully tell them I’ll stay someplace else. I’ll just pick the cheapest property in the area and find a local place serving breakfast.


EXACTLY! I am old enough to come from the age when hospitality providers attracted you with SERVICE (especially true in pre-dereg airlines, as fares were fixed). To this day, my final decision still comes down to who provides the best SERVICE for my budget.


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## Ziv (Jun 22, 2020)

If things continued the way they have for the past 3 months, you might be right, GML. But given the huge reduction in the the deaths from Covid over the past couple weeks, we are looking at the next stage of the pandemic. A stage where it is much less lethal than it was a month ago. 
Look at the 7 day rolling average of new cases in the US vs the 7 day rolling average of Covid deaths. One still looks fairly bad and one looks pretty good. Guess which is which?
;-)



Green Maned Lion said:


> There’s a term for thinking that. It’s called unreasonable optimism. Or perhaps irrational exuberance.
> 
> Forget dining. You’re going to be lucky to have a train two years from now.


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## jiml (Jun 22, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think Drury Inns are still providing the full breakfast and happy hour service.


Do you have anything anecdotal to prove this? Although I'm a Marriott slave and "insider", I cheat at Drury Inns occasionally. I was under the impression that all hotels who provided a "buffet-style" service environment have had to suspend service or offer take-out bags - depending on jurisdiction of course. This has been responsible for the demise of the usual service at all the Marriott lower tier brands. (After living at a Residence Inn for a month before Covid, this is not good.)


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 22, 2020)

Ziv said:


> If things continued the way they have for the past 3 months, you might be right, GML. But given the huge reduction in the the deaths from Covid over the past couple weeks, we are looking at the next stage of the pandemic. A stage where it is much less lethal than it was a month ago.
> Look at the 7 day rolling average of new cases in the US vs the 7 day rolling average of Covid deaths. One still looks fairly bad and one looks pretty good. Guess which is which?
> ;-)


It can take 2 or more weeks from time of case to time of death. I wouldn't be so sure the death counts is looking so good...just hasn't caught up to the new increases in cases.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 22, 2020)

jiml said:


> Do you have anything anecdotal to prove this? Although I'm a Marriott slave and "insider", I cheat at Drury Inns occasionally. I was under the impression that all hotels who provided a "buffet-style" service environment have had to suspend service or offer take-out bags - depending on jurisdiction of course. This has been responsible for the demise of the usual service at all the Marriott lower tier brands. (After living at a Residence Inn for a month before Covid, this is not good.)



Well sadly Drury changed the website to say “or grab and go varying by location” so I guess it’s a gamble just like the other hotel chains.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 23, 2020)

I have been thinking about another trip on the second. My work around would be ordering pizza I Albuquerque to be delivered to the train. 

On my planned ride on 449 I would order pizza at Albany.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 23, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Guess I'm in big trouble if I hold my breath to wait for 'real' traditional rail dining service. I have actually experienced this on one of my very first rail rides in the 60's. The experience made the trip... and the best part of the vacation was the journey that got you to wherever you were actually going! Yup, I do anticipate someone will say you can get that on one of those beautifully restored private trains... but if you find one can you afford it???
> View attachment 17828


This is beautiful but how many people nowadays would like this? It would intimidate most passengers. This sort of service survived into the 60s but even then society was changing. This kind of service doesn't mix well with customers in tank tops, shorts and ripped jeans.


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## Ziv (Jun 23, 2020)

I hear you, AmtrakBlue, but the surge in new cases started in early June, right around 3 weeks ago, right about the time that the 7 day rolling average of test results surged up to around 460k per day. It had just gotten over 300k per day about 6 weeks ago in early May.
The 7 day rolling average of deaths have been trending down relatively steadily as the 7 day rolling average of new cases have been going up. It isn't cut and dried but it definitely doesn't look as bad as it did a month ago. 
Here is hoping we are past the worst of it, but I won't bet the farm on it being over, though.



AmtrakBlue said:


> It can take 2 or more weeks from time of case to time of death. I wouldn't be so sure the death counts is looking so good...just hasn't caught up to the new increases in cases.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 23, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Once something is downgraded at Amtrak it seems that restoration of a former better service is gone forever...


That's not always true. In 1990, I took the Crescent to Atlanta. It seemed like some sort of microwaved fish served on styrofoam picnic plates. The next time I took a long distance train was in 1997, and traditional dining service was back.


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## tonys96 (Jun 23, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Honestly I look for this to continue into 2021, and sadly, probably become permanent on the LD Trains!



Sadly, I do too.


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## tonys96 (Jun 23, 2020)

Ryan said:


> I'll take that bet. Name the stakes.



Ok. How about the loser retires from this forum?


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## me_little_me (Jun 23, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> It can take 2 or more weeks from time of case to time of death. I wouldn't be so sure the death counts is looking so good...just hasn't caught up to the new increases in cases.


Not necessarily. A disproportionate number of deaths have been in long term care. Now that they have been forced (in some cases) and allowed (in other cases) to do something about it and since the numbers of residents have been reduced due to the disease, the death counts may not follow proportionally.
In our county (110K people) , we have had 49 deaths - 47 associated with long term care. About 80% of (non-death) cases were also long term care. Now, we're up to 50-50 and no increases in deaths in a while. The increases seem more to follow the increase in testing (how many untested cases in the past?) and much higher percentages of 20-59 y/o than in the past - and those generally survive better than us ancient ones.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 24, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> It can take 2 or more weeks from time of case to time of death. I wouldn't be so sure the death counts is looking so good...just hasn't caught up to the new increases in cases.


Death count in Delaware just went up due to prior deaths they had been analyzing as to whether they were COVID-19 related.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 24, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> This is beautiful but how many people nowadays would like this? It would intimidate most passengers. This sort of service survived into the 60s but even then society was changing. This kind of service doesn't mix well with customers in tank tops, shorts and ripped jeans.



Yeah just a few years ago on Amtrak I remember passengers across from me commenting on how the flowers on the table intimated them. Then when the wine was served in a real glass they said “oh I don’t like this... I was hoping it was served in a small disposable cup”


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 24, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Death count in Delaware just went up due to prior deaths they had been analyzing as to whether they were COVID-19 related.


Yep, the Death Count will mount no matter how hard the Politicians try to hide the Stats in some States and in Washington!


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## desertflyer (Jun 24, 2020)

I need to go see my family in Texas at some point in the next couple of months, and I'd like to use Amtrak to make the trip SF-Houston-SF. For social distancing I'd prefer to have all meals in my room. Why doesn't Amtrak let us order ahead and pick up our food from the dining car? Sleeping Car attendants have really not wanted to provide this service in the past, even when tipped well. It seems like something so easy that could make customers feel more comfortable.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 24, 2020)

Grab-n-go food items in the cafe car. They could even have an app where you'd enter your credit card and then be able to scan the grab-n-go item yourself. It would reduce the work for the cafe car attendant, speed up the line, as people wouldn't have to wait for the attendant to fiddle around putting their order together and ring up the sale, and it would allow people to get stuff while social-distancing the whole time. The cafe attendant wouldn't be put out of a job, as they'd still be needed to heat stuff, serve booze, and make sure nobody's shoplifting grab-n-go stuff. Kind of like a Pret a Manger on wheels, except I don't think Pret has the scan-it-yourself app.

Actually, I'd like to have a scan-it-yourself app for my local supermarket. Wouldn't have to wait in line to have may sales rung up.


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## desertflyer (Jun 24, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Grab-n-go food items in the cafe car. They could even have an app where you'd enter your credit card and then be able to scan the grab-n-go item yourself.


I think it's important to always have a cash option for people who don't have bank accounts. But, I don't think that's actually at odds with what you're suggesting. The concept reminds me of the Amazon Go stores here in SF where you tag in on entry to the store, bag up what you want to buy, and tag out on exit. Amazon charge you for whatever you walk out of the store with. They have a way to pay using cash and staff are still needed, just not as cashiers generally, and there is no need to scan each item.


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## Trogdor (Jun 25, 2020)

desertflyer said:


> I think it's important to always have a cash option for people who don't have bank accounts. But, I don't think that's actually at odds with what you're suggesting. The concept reminds me of the Amazon Go stores here in SF where you tag in on entry to the store, bag up what you want to buy, and tag out on exit. Amazon charge you for whatever you walk out of the store with. They have a way to pay using cash and staff are still needed, just not as cashiers generally, and there is no need to scan each item.



Maybe I’m misreading what you’re saying, but how is it possible to pay at Amazon Go using cash? I’ve visited several in Chicago and SF and, as far as I can tell, there is no mechanism whatsoever to pay with any method other than the app, since there actually is no “check out” process, per se, at all.


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## Michigan Mom (Jun 25, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> I believe the reduction in food service on the western trains will result in ridership stagnating or decreasing. This will cause Amtrak to cut more. This thought process is flawed.
> 
> Hotels that decide not to provide breakfast service (full service and HGi type hotels) are also going to continue to suffer. I do research and call ahead and ask. When some millinial
> Nitwit cheerfully informs me that a grab and go bag serves as breakfast I cheerfully tell them I’ll stay someplace else. I’ll just pick the cheapest property in the area and find a local place serving breakfast.



The "millenial nitwit" is doing a job that you wouldn't want to do. Considering they are going to have to clean up after the messes left by "boomers", I think maybe, a little understanding is in order. It might interest you to know that their perception of us is along the lines of us disregarding the very generation that will be taking care of us. 
Beyond that, this is an unfair characterization of a very hardworking generation. I've had several millenial interns with a work ethic that easily surpasses us elders.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 25, 2020)

desertflyer said:


> I need to go see my family in Texas at some point in the next couple of months, and I'd like to use Amtrak to make the trip SF-Houston-SF. For social distancing I'd prefer to have all meals in my room. Why doesn't Amtrak let us order ahead and pick up our food from the dining car? Sleeping Car attendants have really not wanted to provide this service in the past, even when tipped well. It seems like something so easy that could make customers feel more comfortable.


Hopefully Houston and Texas will have gotten the current Covin Out of Control situation stopped by then. Houston is on the verge of becoming the Hot Spot that New York City was!

You might want to wait till Sept for this trip, but don't wait till Oct when the I'll advised 3 days a week Schedules for LD Trains kicks in!


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## desertflyer (Jun 25, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> Maybe I’m misreading what you’re saying, but how is it possible to pay at Amazon Go using cash? I’ve visited several in Chicago and SF and, as far as I can tell, there is no mechanism whatsoever to pay with any method other than the app, since there actually is no “check out” process, per se, at all.



San Francisco changed the law when the Amazon Go stores started opening. Now all stores in San Francisco are required to accept cash payment, even now during COVID-19. There is a process for Amazon Go stores although I'm not entirely sure how it works. I believe it involves store employees stoping whatever else they are doing and checking in/out the cash customer.


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## me_little_me (Jun 25, 2020)

desertflyer said:


> San Francisco changed the law when the Amazon Go stores started opening. Now all stores in San Francisco are required to accept cash payment, even now during COVID-19. There is a process for Amazon Go stores although I'm not entirely sure how it works. I believe it involves store employees stoping whatever else they are doing and checking in/out the cash customer.


Shouldn't even be necessary. Look at your paper currency. It clearly states "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE".


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## Trogdor (Jun 25, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Shouldn't even be necessary. Look at your paper currency. It clearly states "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE".








The Fed - Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?


The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.



www.federalreserve.gov


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 25, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Shouldn't even be necessary. Look at your paper currency. It clearly states "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE".



Not for Amtrak currently! Lol.


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## jebr (Jun 26, 2020)

This thread is specific to the COVID-19 impacts on *Amtrak Food Service*. Please keep all discussion in the realm of Amtrak food service impacts, or closely related items/discussion. Some off-topic posts have been hidden.

Amtrak discussion that isn't food service specific can go in the thread COVID-19 (Coronavirus) Pandemic: Amtrak-related Discussion, and general discussion can be done on this thread: https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/covid-19-coronavirus-pandemic-general-discussion.76916/.

Thanks for your understanding and continued cooperation.


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## me_little_me (Jun 26, 2020)

Trogdor said:


> The Fed - Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
> 
> 
> The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.
> ...


So the law says the bills are violating that law by making a false and misleading claim? Does that mean that U.S. bills are fake? That mean using the bill means you are a party to falsified information? That the bills are part of "Fake News"?


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## jebr (Jun 26, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> So the law says the bills are violating that law by making a false and misleading claim? Does that mean that U.S. bills are fake? That mean using the bill means you are a party to falsified information? That the bills are part of "Fake News"?



It's a bit more fine-grained than that. The bills say that they're payment for any _debt_, public or private. If you're at a store and trying to purchase something, the ownership of the item is still with the store until the item/product is purchased. Thus, they can simply refuse to accept cash for the purchase of the item, and that's perfectly fine.

Now, if they let you walk out of the store with it and let you pay for it later, then they have to accept cash for it (or simply forgive the debt.) Same with paying a loan of some sort. The line might get a bit fuzzy at a sit-down restaurant, where you order/eat your food first and then pay, but that'd probably be the closest thing to a "debt" that one could argue where accepting cash would be required.

Thus, if Amtrak goes completely cashless, they'd probably be fine in the cafe car, since payment generally happens before the food is eaten. In the dining car, they'd want to take payment first before making the food, both from a practical standpoint (someone may simply not have a card on them, and there's no way to get a prepaid card while on board) and possibly from a legal standpoint.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 26, 2020)

jebr said:


> Thus, if Amtrak goes completely cashless, they'd probably be fine in the cafe car, since payment generally happens before the food is eaten. In the dining car, they'd want to take payment first before making the food, both from a practical standpoint (someone may simply not have a card on them, and there's no way to get a prepaid card while on board) and possibly from a legal standpoint.



Amtrak is currently cashless.


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## me_little_me (Jun 26, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Amtrak is currently cashless.


Ran out of it already? 
My wife says I'm worth less - or was that worthless?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 26, 2020)

me_little_me said:


> Ran out of it already?
> My wife says I'm worth less - or was that worthless?



Well... they are probably cashless in that way too! But I meant operating as a cashless business.... as in does not accept cash for payment.


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## F900ElCapitan (Jun 27, 2020)

One small glimmer of light in the “flexible dining” experience is the ability to pre-order Kosher meals (72 hours are required for the pre-order). On my recent Texas Eagle trip from LA to Austin I ordered the cheese omelette breakfast and the salmon dinner. The breakfast wasn’t the best I’ve ever had by far, but was light years above the normal Jimmy Dean sandwich offerings. I then had the salmon dinner later that night, this dinner was quite impressive and better than what was being prepared in the full diners for the salmon dinner on the last menu.


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## F900ElCapitan (Jun 27, 2020)

desertflyer said:


> I think it's important to always have a cash option for people who don't have bank accounts. But, I don't think that's actually at odds with what you're suggesting. The concept reminds me of the Amazon Go stores here in SF where you tag in on entry to the store, bag up what you want to buy, and tag out on exit. Amazon charge you for whatever you walk out of the store with. They have a way to pay using cash and staff are still needed, just not as cashiers generally, and there is no need to scan each item.


I rode the TE/SL on the 17th from LA to AUS, meals were definitely able to be ordered through the attendant and either picked up or delivered to your room. If it helps, every other table in the diner has been closed, so even if you eat there alone (no more community seating) I believe you will feel safe as I did.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 27, 2020)

F900ElCapitan said:


> I rode the TE/SL on the 17th from LA to AUS, meals were definitely able to be ordered through the attendant and either picked up or delivered to your room. If it helps, every other table in the diner has been closed, so even if you eat there alone (no more community seating) I believe you will feel safe as I did.


Pre-ordered Kosher meals have been available for years.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Pre-ordered Kosher meals have been available for years.


How do you order them?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 27, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> How do you order them?


There should be a link to a phone #
i know I’ve seen references to them


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## AmtrakBlue (Jun 27, 2020)

Amtrak Special Menus & Special Dietary Requirements


Onboard the Amtrak trains, you can choose from kosher, vegan and vegetarian meals. Certain food items are inherently low fat, low cholesterol or low sodium and may be ordered from the regular menu.




www.amtrak.com


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## Maverickstation (Jun 27, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Pre-ordered Kosher meals have been available for years.



Yes, but today, you can see the options that are available (including details on Food Facts) on the Amtrak website, so you can decide before phoning in the request. Needless to say anyone can order the Kosher meals.

Ken


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 27, 2020)

They’ve added 2 items to the menu for western trains - enchiladas and shrimp in lobster sauce. 

Still no non-shellfish fish entree and no gluten free and vegetarian entree. 

They really don’t get what people want. Give me an option for a simple entree salad!


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## Maverickstation (Jun 27, 2020)

heres the link to the updated Flexible Dining Menus.



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-West-0720.pdf


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## lordsigma (Jun 27, 2020)

Maverickstation said:


> heres the link to the updated Flexible Dining Menus.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Flexible-Dining-Menu-West-0720.pdf


This was badly needed For the western trains. With the added items (provided they taste acceptable) as much as I hate to admit it I could probably deal with The flex dining on a longer route. Will find out in October when I first sample flex dining (silver service to Florida.)


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## Steve4031 (Jun 27, 2020)

Not a good sign of they are adding more of the same mixed up crap. Just have a dam sandwich without 15,000 things on it.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

Cases are exploding exponentially with 45,000 cases a day, and almost 130,000 deaths in the last 100 days. I'm not even thinking about traveling. Stay home, stay safe, and if you go out, wear a mask.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

Steve4031 said:


> Not a good sign of they are adding more of the same mixed up crap. Just have a dam sandwich without 15,000 things on it.



Disgusting! HIGHLY processed food... and beware of those watery sauces... tasteless, and taking up a lot of volume of that 5 oz portion of 'food product.' That's a meal? That's a wrap! Or... whatever. To add to what you said... "more of the same mixed up crap" with zero texture, zero taste, and zero contentment. 

BTW, some on this forum have disagreed with the idea of supporting private enterprise to partner with Amtrak and step in to compete with each other for a better solution for the same amount of $$$. What do you think???

So if Amtrak would open up its meal service program to competing vendors do you think this may bring an improved solution for food service during the pandemic? I mean, in terms of quality, presentation, content, taste, and putting a smile on that face after a really satisfying delicious meal???


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## PVD (Jun 27, 2020)

Amtrak already gets its food from private operators. An outside vendor operates the Downeaster food service. They get good reviews. Despite lower labor costs, they still lose money. The agency accepts those losses as making a positive contribution to the overall financial picture of the trains. Under the present rules, Amtrak can not do that.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 27, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> So if Amtrak would open up its meal service program to competing vendors do you think this may bring an improved solution for food service during the pandemic?



The current vendor can provide food at whatever quality Amtrak wants.

Remember, Acela First Class is getting boxed meals now.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> The current vendor can provide food at whatever quality Amtrak wants.
> 
> Remember, Acela First Class is getting boxed meals now.


It's about value for pricing. So, OK! Pret a Manger charges customers about $10 for a very fresh, quality wholesome meal for about $10 to $12 per meal, yet the 5oz meals Amtrak is touting are $25 according to the personal who say that is how much they have to pay if they want one. So where's the efficiency???


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 27, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> It's about value for pricing. So, OK! Pret a Manger charges customers about $10 for a very fresh, quality wholesome meal for about $10 to $12 per meal, yet the 5oz meals Amtrak is touting are $25 according to the personal who say that is how much they have to pay if they want one. So where's the efficiency???
> View attachment 17860
> 
> 
> View attachment 17861



Prets exist in extremely high traffic areas. That’s a totally different business model. 

Amtrak should be providing something better but anything Amtrak provides is going to cost money. It won’t be able to turn a profit.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Prets exist in extremely high traffic areas. That’s a totally different business model.
> 
> Amtrak should be providing something better but anything Amtrak provides is going to cost money. It won’t be able to turn a profit.



In terms of food service, that is exactly where the efficiency and innovation of a private vendor comes in to cut costs and up quality of food offered. Amtrak needs to make a greater effort to INVITE AND ALLOW sub contractors to compete for a food provision contract.

The food service [per covid] for the premier Amtrak Lounge in CHI is sub contracted from a private vendor. The fare is quite good considering the extremely tight financial support and guidelines imposed by Amtrak.

JUST FOR FUN... WHY NOT ACTUALLY DREAM...
What if Amtrak were to allow bids to be completely taken over by the private sector. Lots of folks think that Amtrak can only be run by the government. I'll bet if the US Government were to come out with a bidding opportunity based upon the budget for national passenger transportation that we have now, with prerequisites and an ongoing evaluation system, miracles would happen. I.E. more efficiency, better service, and [WHOA!] the Spector of profitability!


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## MARC Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

AmtrakBlue said:


> Amtrak Special Menus & Special Dietary Requirements
> 
> 
> Onboard the Amtrak trains, you can choose from kosher, vegan and vegetarian meals. Certain food items are inherently low fat, low cholesterol or low sodium and may be ordered from the regular menu.
> ...


OK, so you have to call 1-800-USA-RAIL and wait for an operator, it can't be done on the Internet.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> In terms of food service, that is exactly where the efficiency and innovation of a private vendor comes in to cut costs and up quality of food offered. Amtrak needs to make a greater effort to INVITE AND ALLOW sub contractors to compete for a food provision contract.


 I believe Amtrak did do some sort of RFP just like that recently. I never heard that there was any response from the private sector. I really don't think that a long-distance train has the volume of potential customers to interest a private vendor in this business, except for catering companies to provide institutional quality food. Sorry, there's no "white knight" from the private sector that can save the traditional dining car.

Amtrak already gets its food from private vendors, and we all know that the flex dining stuff is not up to par. Amtrak doesn't have to change its system, all they need to decide to order better quality food.


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## lordsigma (Jun 27, 2020)

Still lacking majorly in the breakfast department and also as many have pointed out no lighter sandwich or similar choices for lunch. I must confess I actually kind of like the jimmy dean sandwiches but I have to imagine they get quite old after day 2 or 3.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Still lacking majorly in the breakfast department and also as many have pointed out no lighter sandwich or similar choices for lunch. I must confess I actually kind of like the jimmy dean sandwiches but I have to imagine they get quite old after day 2 or 3.


Yeah, they need toast/bagels, cream cheese/butter, more varieties of yogurt (including plain) and in the 6 oz. cups served in the cafe car instead of those mini snack cups. Also, unflavored oatmeal, even if it's instant. And maybe a meat-free Jimmy Dean (or equivalent) Sandwich. The fresh fruit cup is pretty good, but maybe it should be sized the same as the one sold in the NEC cafe cars.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 27, 2020)

What they need on the NEC cafe cars:

We're talking about a service that has multiple daily frequencies originating or passing through New York City, and they can't serve a decent Pastrami on Rye? Even a Corned Beef on Rye would be acceptable. 

And with Washington as a major terminal, why can't they serve a half-smoke? And what about a Philly Cheese steak or Hoagie? Or a Maryland Crab cake? Or a serving of Boston baked beans?

My brother rides the train to New York quite a bit, but he told me that he doesn't bother with the cafe car, except to buy coffee. Well, for a 2 1/2 hour ride, I guess you really don't have to eat on board.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 28, 2020)

At least breakfast resembles what I would actually eat. Cheerios, yogurt, fruit. It shouldn’t be considered a full breakfast but it’s way better than frozen dinners that I would never eat under other circumstances.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 28, 2020)

Most of understand the reasoning behind the food changes due to complications of the pandemic... and the accompanying decline in ridership. The concern is that these food service and frequency cutbacks will become permanent and that this will become the new Amtrak. 

Pre pandemic there had been a lot of discussion nationally regarding updating of the rail system with high speed... in dense population areas... Florida, California, Northeast, Midwest, etc. It is hoped this will continue, and that national leadership will support it!


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## Manny T (Jun 28, 2020)

If national leadership for upgrading Amtrak is wanted, doesn't that mean Joe Biden? I understand he was nicknamed Amtrak Joe and that he clocked in some 8,200 roundtrips on Amtrak during his government tenure. Not sure what other national candidate can offer that resume.








Joe Biden leaves D.C. on -- what else? -- Amtrak


The former vice president returns to his home state the same way he traveled as a senator.



www.jsonline.com


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 28, 2020)

Manny T said:


> If national leadership for upgrading Amtrak is wanted, doesn't that mean Joe Biden? I understand he was nicknamed Amtrak Joe and that he clocked in some 8,200 roundtrips on Amtrak during his government tenure. Not sure what other national candidate can offer that resume.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The present incumbent national leader wants to slice Amtrak funding by half. But most think that 'Amtrak Joe' would most likely be Pro-Amtrak... although nothing is for certain. We can only hope for a full restoration of Amtrak post pandemic, although LD is really taking a hit. Wish we could crawl into the Amtrak part of Joe's mind. He definitely is an 'Amtrak kind of a guy.' Hmmm... so much to wonder about; safe to say next year at this time we will have gone through some big changes.


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## MARC Rider (Jun 28, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> The present incumbent national leader wants to slice Amtrak funding by half. But most think that 'Amtrak Joe' would most likely be Pro-Amtrak... although nothing is for certain. We can only hope for a full restoration of Amtrak post pandemic, although LD is really taking a hit. Wish we could crawl into the Amtrak part of Joe's mind. He definitely is an 'Amtrak kind of a guy.' Hmmm... so much to wonder about; safe to say next year at this time we will have gone through some big changes.


If we have a new President in January, I suspect that there will be a lot of issues with a higher priority than the details of Amtrak service. In any event, the President doesn't really have all that much authority over Amtrak. As you pointed out, the current President wanted to cut Amtrak funding by half, but that went nowhere with Congress. And that was a Congress hostile to government spending and of the same political party as the President.

That said, Mr. Biden and his political party are, indeed, more supportive of funding for rail transit than the other side of the aisle. Furthermore, they're more likely to be concerned about reducing greenhouse gas emissions and other emissions of air pollutants. Thus, they will tend to be more sympathetic to funding passenger rail and public transit as a tool to help get people out of their cars. But this means that they will probably want to focus on improving and expanding short-haul corridor service that has the most potential to significantly reduce the automobile vehicle miles driven. Long-haul service is secondary, but everybody agrees that it should be supported to provide mobility alternatives for rural areas, especially those not served by other forms of public transportation. This also provides the national political support for all passenger rail. 

However, most passengers, even on long distance trains only travel relatively short distances. Thus, catering to passengers traveling the really long distances is probably the lowest priority for funding. There are still good reasons to do so: There's a small, but significant percentage of the population who can't or won't fly or drive, often for medical reasons. In addition, the premium services catering to long-distance passengers (sleeper and business class) have a revenue yield per mile that's almost twice that of coach. Thus, the gravy pulled in by the customers of the premium service helps cross-subsidize the long-distance service for coach passengers. This, by the way, is a good reason for Amtrak not to outsource the premium services, as if they are outsourced, the private operator would be getting that gravy, not Amtrak.

In summary, any new administration, especially if there's a change in control of the Senate, will be more friendly to funding passenger rail than we've seen in a long time, but don't expect any miracles with respect for improvements in service on the long-distance routes. What I'd like to see is policymakers and political leaders start taking passenger rail seriously as a viable transportation mode for the masses across the country, like it is in the Northeast.


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## Steve4031 (Jun 29, 2020)

BTW, some on this forum have disagreed with the idea of supporting private enterprise to partner with Amtrak and step in to compete with each other for a better solution for the same amount of $$$. What do you think???

So if Amtrak would open up its meal service program to competing vendors do you think this may bring an improved solution for food service during the pandemic? I mean, in terms of quality, presentation, content, taste, and putting a smile on that face after a really satisfying delicious meal???
[/QUOTE]

At this point I’m so disgusted I’m willing to try anything. There is a lack of efficiency in how Amtrak management gets things done. The first thing that needs to happen is that some sort of process needs to occur where mid to low level managers are empowered to make decisions and also be held accountable for poor performance. If the food isn’t getting positive reviews from the passengers and the employees are not providing adequate service then the manager needs to feel the heat. And heat must be passed onto employees who are not doing there job. 

The food on the Canadian is better than Amtrak, though there are a few things I dislike about their service model. The brunch model for serving a later breakfast is not my favorite part. I’m usually ravenous by the time brunch occurs. I don’t know how much via loses on the Canadian food service. 

The German dining Cars on some of their ICE trains is pretty good. And the diner is open for the duration of the train’s 8 hour run. 

I liked some of the meals on Acela. So imho I think it’s possible that better food service is possible. The problem is getting congress to change from a cost cutting model to a balance of quality and economic efficiency.


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## Maverickstation (Jun 29, 2020)

When we discuss on board dining service, there is another example of a railroad that uses catered service and offers a full menu for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner. The service is right in the USA, The Alaska Railroad. Most of their summer services start this week, between July 1st and 3rd.



https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Denali-Star-Dinner-Menu.jpg


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 29, 2020)

F900ElCapitan said:


> I rode the TE/SL on the 17th from LA to AUS, meals were definitely able to be ordered through the attendant and either picked up or delivered to your room. If it helps, every other table in the diner has been closed, so even if you eat there alone (no more community seating) I believe you will feel safe as I did.


`
You seem to have answered a question I had: is there any problem getting the attendant to serve you in your compartment or is there resistance?


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 29, 2020)

Palmland said:


> I think the issue is far bigger than Amtrak's meager food offerings, at least in the era of Covid-19. I suspect all travel will encounter the same prepackaged, tasteless, processed food we now enjoy on Amtrak. We just returned from a road trip and spent two nights on the road staying at our usual moderately priced Marriott Fairfield hotels. Normally their 'free' breakfasts are pretty good with an assortment of fresh fruit, sausage or bacon, and omelets. Now everything was wrapped in cellophane and there were no hot offerings. So, while Amtrak food is a disaster, at least there is a plausible reason for it as long as we have Covid-19. I am sure Amtrak bean counters are relieved that the timing of the virus has had the unintended effect of providing some cover for flexible dining.
> 
> I guess the only reason 'real food' exits on Auto Train is they have made a commitment to try and retain this lucrative market and with at least twice the number of sleepers as other trains it isn't practical to try and serve all passengers from a glorified cafe car and walk through 3 or 4 sleepers to the room. And certainly many paying the premium to haul their auto wouldn't be satisfied with a flexible dining box.
> 
> But of course this begs the questions, as other have noted regarding fare sales, if they can do it on A-T why not all trains.



They don't do it because the goal has been to cut out dining cars. Now they have an excuse. Next step: reduce to 3 x a week and when passenger loads drop use that as an excuse to eliminate the service.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 29, 2020)

Maverickstation said:


> When we discuss on board dining service, there is another example of a railroad that uses catered service and offers a full menu for Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner. The service is right in the USA, The Alaska Railroad. Most of their summer services start this week, between July 1st and 3rd.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Denali-Star-Dinner-Menu.jpg


That's pretty impressive considering things are more expensive in Alaska. Why can't Amtrak do the same???


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 29, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> That's pretty impressive considering things are more expensive in Alaska. Why can't Amtrak do the same???



What things are more expensive in Alaska? More expensive compared to where? 

And Amtrak is fully capable of having a great dining car menu, they’ve had good options in the past few years. 

It’s all about the current Amtrak management.


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## PVD (Jun 29, 2020)

Cost of living in Alaska is higher than the national average by quite a bit. It costs a lot to bring goods there, transportation costs are high. Most of the touristy high end stuff is seasonal, food service is an attraction, contributing to the overall desirability of the trip. Certainly not the same as what Amtrak has to provide. AR is an essential government service for freight movement in the state.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 29, 2020)

PVD said:


> Cost of living in Alaska is higher than the national average by quite a bit. It costs a lot to bring goods there, transportation costs are high. Most of the touristy high end stuff is seasonal, food service is an attraction, contributing to the overall desirability of the trip. Certainly not the same as what Amtrak has to provide. AR is an essential government service for freight movement in the state.



Alaska is not in the top 5 most expensive states to live in though.

AR moving freight has nothing to do with them serving reindeer sausage for breakfast.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 29, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What things are more expensive in Alaska? More expensive compared to where?
> 
> And Amtrak is fully capable of having a great dining car menu, they’ve had good options in the past few years.
> 
> It’s all about the current Amtrak management.



True food prices vary by location... and most reliable comparative sources show a higher cost of living in Alaska. But you are right on when it comes to the issue.

We're actually both saying the same thing... "Amtrak is fully capable of having a great dining car menu, they’ve had good options in the past few years. It’s all about the current Amtrak management."

I agree with you 100% and I think most of us feel the same way.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 29, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> True food prices vary by location... and most reliable comparative sources show a higher cost of living in Alaska. But you are right on when it comes to the issue.
> 
> We're actually both saying the same thing... "Amtrak is fully capable of having a great dining car menu, they’ve had good options in the past few years. It’s all about the current Amtrak management."
> 
> ...



It’s really a shame, there’s no reason the chef can’t still be on the train preparing the meals even if the menu had to be modified and you still had to eat in your room because of the virus.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 29, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It’s really a shame, there’s no reason the chef can’t still be on the train preparing the meals even if the menu had to be modified and you still had to eat in your room because of the virus.


Agreed! Let's all hope a vaccine will be found soon so things can get back to normal. And there's also hope that a new administration will be more favorable to Amtrak support.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 29, 2020)

Budget cuts for Amtrak... the Washington Post reports... "Trump’s proposed 2021 budget delivered to Congress on Monday includes reductions in funding to the United States’ busiest rail corridor, the Northeast, to $325 million from $700 million. Funding for Amtrak’s long-distance trains would decrease to $611 million from $1.3 billion under the plan, which intends to phase out aid for long-distance service."

There's probably been much discussion on that here but I haven't been able to find the strand. With sincerest respect for all points of view, I'm stymied as to the reason for cuts to the NE rail corridor... and extremely disappointed in the push for phasing out aid completely for LD service... while attempting to get billions appropriated for 'the Wall.' ???

But, we are a country of elected representation. Personal list of priorities:

1 - wear a mask
2 - social distance
3 - vote


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 29, 2020)

The current "flexible" menu is a downgrade of the downgrade. When they first dropped dining cars on trains east of Chicago they had a good cheese / cold meat plate. That's gone. They offer the same menu for lunch and dinner. I don't eat the same things for both meals. There isn't even a sandwich offered for lunch - but you can pay extra for one in the cafe car! Take a look at the current offerings. My doctor has me on a low sodium, basically sugar free diet. These items are almost certainly very high in sodium and very unhealthy:

Red wine braised beef: contains polenta (yuck) and mushrooms.
Enchiladas: described as the "healthy" option. 
Chicken Marsala: includes broccoli and carrots. 
Shrimp in Lobster sauce: The only fish option contains shellfish that a lot of people can't eat. 
Pasta and Meatballs

I called Amtrak and they said NO special menus. At least on the airlines they offer plain chicken, beef or pasta - dishes that most people can eat plus they offer Kosher, Halal options etc. 

This junk food - full of salt, fat and (in the case of breakfast) sugar is what passengers have to eat for THREE days coast-to-coast. This after paying massive fares. It's nothing less than insensitivity to the well being of passengers, if not an abuse of passenger rights.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jun 29, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> The current "flexible" menu is a downgrade of the downgrade. When they first dropped dining cars on trains east of Chicago they had a good cheese / cold meat plate. That's gone. They offer the same menu for lunch and dinner. I don't eat the same things for both meals. There isn't even a sandwich offered for lunch - but you can pay extra for one in the cafe car! Take a look at the current offerings. My doctor has me on a low sodium, basically sugar free diet. These items are almost certainly very high in sodium and very unhealthy:
> 
> Red wine braised beef: contains polenta (yuck) and mushrooms.
> Enchiladas: described as the "healthy" option.
> ...


Yes! I know what exactly what you are saying... the food service consistently deteriorates from bad to worse! I am putting together a food review for the 'Wine Braised Beef with Polenta" - the fatty pieces of meat swimming around in watery gravy that the polenta is dissolving into. [Choke!] A disgraceful disrespect to the sleeping car passenger who has paid so much to get so little. So unsatisfying, so bland, and so boring. 

But do be aware, the present administration wants to cut out all LD service and is further slicing the budget by 50%... and by discouraging the customer, the declining numbers will justify the oblivion. Please... whatever you do... vote! ... because with a new administration this all could change!!!


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 30, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes! I know what exactly what you are saying... the food service consistently deteriorates from bad to worse! I am putting together a food review for the 'Wine Braised Beef with Polenta" - the fatty pieces of meat swimming around in watery gravy that the polenta is dissolving into. [Choke!] A disgraceful disrespect to the sleeping car passenger who has paid so much to get so little. So unsatisfying, so bland, and so boring.
> 
> But do be aware, the present administration wants to cut out all LD service and is further slicing the budget by 50%... and by discouraging the customer, the declining numbers will justify the oblivion. Please... whatever you do... vote! ... because with a new administration this all could change!!!


Keep contacting your Reps ( they're ALL up for Election in the House) and your Senators. Several Senators from both Parties are working on this, keep the heat on!


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## Maverickstation (Jun 30, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Alaska is not in the top 5 most expensive states to live in though.
> 
> AR moving freight has nothing to do with them serving reindeer sausage for breakfast.



With noting that the Alaska RR also provides a full menu (Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner) on it's weekly AURORA Winter Train, the train also has a mid-week round trip during select months.



https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Alaska-Railroad-Winter-Menu-Sample.pdf


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 30, 2020)

Maverickstation said:


> With noting that the Alaska RR also provides a full menu (Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner) on it's weekly AURORA Winter Train, the train also has a mid-week round trip during select months.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.alaskarailroad.com/sites/default/files/Marketing/Alaska-Railroad-Winter-Menu-Sample.pdf



Yes. I’m not saying it can’t be done. Hoosier State had a dome dining car with food cooked on board. Downeaster has its own menu with higher quality cafe service. The piedmont trains offer free bottled water to all passengers. 

Anything is possible if the state is willing to pay for it and make it happen.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 30, 2020)

Bob Dylan said:


> Keep contacting your Reps ( they're ALL up for Election in the House) and your Senators. Several Senators from both Parties are working on this, keep the heat on!



The problem is that when I write the staffers don't read more than a sentence. I have written about long haul and dining. I get a response back that has nothing to do with these issues. They just don't care. Several politicians have done the same. I feel that they simply do not care. We are not really represented.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jun 30, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Yes! I know what exactly what you are saying... the food service consistently deteriorates from bad to worse! I am putting together a food review for the 'Wine Braised Beef with Polenta" - the fatty pieces of meat swimming around in watery gravy that the polenta is dissolving into. [Choke!] A disgraceful disrespect to the sleeping car passenger who has paid so much to get so little. So unsatisfying, so bland, and so boring.
> 
> But do be aware, the present administration wants to cut out all LD service and is further slicing the budget by 50%... and by discouraging the customer, the declining numbers will justify the oblivion. Please... whatever you do... vote! ... because with a new administration this all could change!!!



Could you inform me when you post the review. Will you review any other items. There are only two items on the menu that I can consider eating on a three night trip and that is one of them. This is really disturbing. By the way, I asked if there were a Kosher option and was told NO. Then I checked back and was told YES. I asked WHERE is the menu online. The agent could not find it. Has anyone tried the Kosher option? I suppose there is one choice for lunch and dinner for a three day trip! And I'll bet that of the other options they won't stock or will run out of at least one. So what do I do? pay out of pocket for the cafe car sandwiches?


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 30, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> Could you inform me when you post the review. Will you review any other items. There are only two items on the menu that I can consider eating on a three night trip and that is one of them. This is really disturbing. By the way, I asked if there were a Kosher option and was told NO. Then I checked back and was told YES. I asked WHERE is the menu online. The agent could not find it. Has anyone tried the Kosher option? I suppose there is one choice for lunch and dinner for a three day trip! And I'll bet that of the other options they won't stock or will run out of at least one. So what do I do? pay out of pocket for the cafe car sandwiches?



If your other option is the shrimp and sausage bowl (gluten free) I can tell you the shrimp bowl is way better than the beef. The beef is swimming in an overly salted sauce and the polenta is not recognizable as such. 

The shrimp and sausage rice bowl at least resembles a cheap microwaved rice bowl. It’s not great, but it’s way better than the beef. Those are the only 2 I’ve tried so far. The new little salads are pathetic, and there is no gluten free dessert option.


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## Bob Dylan (Jun 30, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> The problem is that when I write the staffers don't read more than a sentence. I have written about long haul and dining. I get a response back that has nothing to do with these issues. They just don't care. Several politicians have done the same. I feel that they simply do not care. We are not really represented.


Elect different Reps!!


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## me_little_me (Jun 30, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I called Amtrak and they said NO special menus. At least on the airlines they offer plain chicken, beef or pasta - dishes that most people can eat plus they offer Kosher, Halal options etc.



They do have kosher meals (that sound MUCH BETTER especially for breakfast) that you have to order 72 hours in advance.









Amtrak Special Menus & Special Dietary Requirements


Onboard the Amtrak trains, you can choose from kosher, vegan and vegetarian meals. Certain food items are inherently low fat, low cholesterol or low sodium and may be ordered from the regular menu.




www.amtrak.com


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## MARC Rider (Jun 30, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Yes. I’m not saying it can’t be done. Hoosier State had a dome dining car with food cooked on board. Downeaster has its own menu with higher quality cafe service. The piedmont trains offer free bottled water to all passengers.
> 
> Anything is possible if the state is willing to pay for it and make it happen.


While a closer look should be made at what the Alaska Railroad does, the other examples aren't really helpful. The Hoosier State run by Iowa-Pacific was a financial failure, cafe service is relevant to long-distance food-service needs, and the Northeast Corridor cafe service is doing OK. The Piedmont offers nothing but vending machines and the free bottled water and coffee. (The Carolinian offers basic Northeast Corridor style cafe car fare.)


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## crescent-zephyr (Jun 30, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> While a closer look should be made at what the Alaska Railroad does, the other examples aren't really helpful. The Hoosier State run by Iowa-Pacific was a financial failure, cafe service is relevant to long-distance food-service needs, and the Northeast Corridor cafe service is doing OK. The Piedmont offers nothing but vending machines and the free bottled water and coffee. (The Carolinian offers basic Northeast Corridor style cafe car fare.)



What was your point?

Alaska is a State funded operation. 

The Hoosier State was not a financial disaster for the state of Indiana. 

And the point was that Maine and Iowa pay for a different level of service than other states get.

I wasn’t comparing the actual food served on board and thought that would be clear.


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## Ferroequinologist (Jul 1, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> If your other option is the shrimp and sausage bowl (gluten free) I can tell you the shrimp bowl is way better than the beef. The beef is swimming in an overly salted sauce and the polenta is not recognizable as such.
> 
> The shrimp and sausage rice bowl at least resembles a cheap microwaved rice bowl. It’s not great, but it’s way better than the beef. Those are the only 2 I’ve tried so far. The new little salads are pathetic, and there is no gluten free dessert option.



I cannot eat shrimp. The beef was one of the options I could eat and you and someone else said it was salty and bad. I'm on a low salt diet. So there seems to be one item left and they may not stock that. Has anyone eaten the Kosher meals? What are they?


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## OBS (Jul 1, 2020)

Ferroequinologist said:


> I cannot eat shrimp. The beef was one of the options I could eat and you and someone else said it was salty and bad. I'm on a low salt diet. So there seems to be one item left and they may not stock that. Has anyone eaten the Kosher meals? What are they?


My info may be a little out of date but the breakfast was some type of omelette, and the L/D entrees were chicken, beef, and fish....


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## yarrow (Jul 1, 2020)

Amtrak's cuts to dining service spurs Congress to action


Critics charge the halt of restaurant-style dining is part of an effort to make long-distance routes, a target of Trump administration cuts, less appealing.




www.rollcall.com


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## joelkfla (Jul 1, 2020)

yarrow said:


> Amtrak's cuts to dining service spurs Congress to action
> 
> 
> Critics charge the halt of restaurant-style dining is part of an effort to make long-distance routes, a target of Trump administration cuts, less appealing.
> ...


Sounds good, but we'll see if self-described 'Grim Reaper' McConnell lets the bill see the light of day in the Senate.


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## tonys96 (Jul 2, 2020)

Jun 23, 2020

#232



> Ryan said:
> I'll take that bet. Name the stakes.


Ok. How about the loser retires from this forum?

[Crickets]


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