# Cessna crashes onto tracks; struck by Metrolink train



## TaseMeBro (Jan 9, 2022)

Happened in Pacoima, near Los Angeles. Cessna crashed onto Metrolink tracks. Pilot injured, but removed from acft moments before train strike.

News Article:









Plane hit by train after it crashes in Pacoima


A pilot was hospitalized after their plane crashed in Pacoima on Sunday, according to the Los Angeles Fire Department. The crash, which occurred shortly after 2 p.m., involved a “small single…




ktla.com





Bodycam:


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## caravanman (Jan 10, 2022)

Passenger train in Los Angeles hits light aircraft which had crashed on the tracks approaching an airport

Train Crashes into Plane - Whiteman Airport Pacoima, California [WARNING: GRAPHIC FOOTAGE] - YouTube

The extraordinary thing is that several police cars had come out to the aircraft accident, taped off adjacent streets (as can be seen), and were assisting the pilot out of the aircraft, yet nothing was done to stop the railway, the barriers came down and the train came through at high speed.

Pilot rescued from oncoming train after emergency landing - CNN Video


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## TinCan782 (Jan 10, 2022)

Happened to catch that on the scanner when the Metrolink dispatcher responded to the engineer calling in with an emergency.
The dispatcher was trying to understand what happened ("Your train struck an airplane?").


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## TinCan782 (Jan 10, 2022)

caravanman said:


> Passenger train in Los Angeles hits light aircraft which had crashed on the tracks approaching an airport
> 
> Train Crashes into Plane - Whiteman Airport Pacoima, California [WARNING: GRAPHIC FOOTAGE] - YouTube
> 
> ...


In another news rerport, an officer did state they attempted to contact Metrolink to stop all trains. The police station was only a couple blocks from the crash site.


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 10, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> Happened to catch that on the scanner when the Metrolink dispatcher responded to the engineer calling in with an emergency.
> The dispatcher was trying to understand what happened ("Your train struck an airplane?").


Is this scanner discussion recorded or captured anywhere?


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## joelkfla (Jan 10, 2022)

That's some amazing video! The cops got clear about 5 seconds before the train hit.

Hats off to their dedication & courage.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jan 10, 2022)

Darn so that's why they have those blue crossing reporting signs.


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## LookingGlassTie (Jan 10, 2022)

Now that's awesome!


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## WWW (Jan 10, 2022)

One brief clip out of the video shows the train operators cab window smashed - other wise the usual dings of hitting 
an immoveable object with an irresistible force - - -
Did not seen any commentary about how far down the track the train stopped to access what happen ? 

WOW this was something out of the ordinary - 
Every day you hear see or read about train strikes car truck semi even a school bus farm implement - but ! an aero-plane Really !


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## TinCan782 (Jan 10, 2022)

Dutchrailnut said:


> Darn so that's why they have those blue crossing reporting signs.


ABC News/The Associated Press
January 10, 2022, 12:51 PM:
*“I had requested Metrolink to cease all train activity, but apparently that didn’t happen,” Sgt. Joseph Cavestany told CBSN Los Angeles.*
_








Pilot rescued from wreckage in LA moments before train hits


Police body-camera video shows a harrowing rescue in California, where a small plane crashed on railroad tracks shortly after takeoff from a suburban Los Angeles airfield




abcnews.go.com




_The timing of that request was not stated.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jan 10, 2022)

how did he request it ?? wrong number , not dispatcher , poor training ? NTSB will let us know.


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## moosejunky99 (Jan 10, 2022)

That is some crazy video... glad they got the pilot out just in time...


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 11, 2022)

caravanman said:


> The extraordinary thing is that several police cars had come out to the aircraft accident, taped off adjacent streets (as can be seen), and were assisting the pilot out of the aircraft, yet nothing was done to stop the railway, the barriers came down and the train came through at high speed.


Reports I read indicate the police only had about five minutes to work with. That may simply not be enough time to radio nearby trains and setup flares. The impact did launch some potentially lethal debris toward some bystanders but they got the pilot out just in the nick of time.



> “I think this guy needs to buy a lottery ticket because he pretty much cheated death twice within 10 minutes,” Officer Robert Sherock said.


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## Cal (Jan 11, 2022)

Apparently when they got hold of Metrolink they didn’t believe them when they said a plane was on the tracks. Either way, something needs improvement, whether it be the system, the officers training, or something else.


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## zephyr17 (Jan 11, 2022)

After decades, the railroads finally get a small measure of revenge on airplanes


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## Barb Stout (Jan 11, 2022)

Those officers should get some very public commendations and awards.

The pilot should be re-named Rasputin. BTW, there is someone here on AU that goes by Rasputin. What's your story behind that handle?


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 11, 2022)

Review from a youtuber pilot based at KWHP:


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## Ryan (Jan 11, 2022)

That's a great video. Talk about really, really bad luck follows by really, really good luck.


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## BLNT (Jan 12, 2022)

My first thought was how long after the plane went down did the train come barreling through? 

Perhaps they need to install some sort of alarm/panic button at crossings for such events (not only planes, lol). I'd love to have that contract!


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## tgstubbs1 (Jan 12, 2022)

BLNT said:


> My first thought was how long after the plane went down did the train come barreling through?
> 
> Perhaps they need to install some sort of alarm/panic button at crossings for such events (not only planes, lol). I'd love to have that contract!


Maybe some kind of sensors could activate a bright strobe light at the crossing.


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## WWW (Jan 12, 2022)

Officers pull pilot from crashed plane seconds before train slams into it (nbcnews.com) 

Whiteman Airport:

Google Maps

It happened right next door to a police station -
Police had time to stop traffic and put out TAPE "Do Not Cross - Police Scene" -
Reported that First Responders (police) had about 5 minutes to work with -
Train must have been barreling along at track speed (greater than 60 mph) -
5 minutes - 60 mph = 5 miles away -
Can't judge (fix) the speed of the train but it was really moving in the video -
Train could have stopped before reaching that intersection -
"IF" *** alerted in time -
5 miles even 3 miles is enough space -
It wasn't like a freight train with a great deal of enertia of movement potential of derailing cars emergency braking

Calling police dispatch to call railroad dispatcher certainly was of no use - too much time wasted connecting -
Block signals would not be triggered in time if there were any signals at all -
Only solution direct radio communications with the train - something that needs to be worked on - car truck or aero-plane collisions imminent -

And then if the police or other first responders had not been there the injured if able bodied at all to effect the stop the train communications -
In this case the injured pilot needed a whole lot of assistance to be removed from the plane -

If someone was able to see the train coming at the speed it was doing I doubt that it could have stopped in time - flares roman candles etc.

There was cell phone video of the train after striking the remains of the plane - causing a piece of wreckage to fly near the cell phone person
who had to duck to avoid it and a few frames of video of the locomotive with the operators window smashed - really smashed.

No reports or other data about how far down the track the train traveled before stopping

It will be thoroughly investigated but what will be done about these not everyday accidents ?

A plane totally destroyed - a locomotive dinged up - local railroad infrastructure needing a few repairs -
BEST part no fatalities.


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## jis (Jan 12, 2022)

Crossings equipped with intrusion detection tied in with PTC would be able to automatically warn and activate slowing down of the train. As to whether it can be brought to a safe stop before hitting the plane is another matter.

Of course the plane could have potentially crashed on the track far removed from the crossing. It would probably be cost prohibitive to install intrusion detection systems along the entire length of an open track.

Installing a panic button would be an invitation to motorists who wish to hurry up to hit the button and then drive across. It minimally has to be protected by some means allowing access to it only by authorized folks or some such. Or perhaps like a fire alarm where one has to break something to get to it, though that would only act as a minor deterrent for a very insistent motorist I'd imagine.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 12, 2022)

BLNT said:


> Perhaps they need to install some sort of alarm/panic button at crossings for such events (not only planes, lol). I'd love to have that contract!


Let truckers and commercial operators pay for it since they represent the main threat to trains. If trucking companies had to repair or replace every train they damaged or destroyed we might still have full length trains running today.


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## John Santos (Jan 12, 2022)

jis said:


> Crossings equipped with intrusion detection tied in with PTC would be able to automatically warn and activate slowing down of the train. As to whether it can be brought to a safe stop before hitting the plane is another matter.
> 
> Of course the plane could have potentially crashed on the track far removed from the crossing. It would probably be cost prohibitive to install intrusion detection systems along the entire length of an open track.
> 
> Installing a panic button would be an invitation to motorists who wish to hurry up to hit the button and then drive across. It minimally has to be protected by some means allowing access to it only by authorized folks or some such. Or perhaps like a fire alarm where one has to break something to get to it, though that would only act as a minor deterrent for a very insistent motorist I'd imagine.


Many traffic lights have cameras now... Is this common at protected grade crossings? Hard to stop, get out of your car, walk over to the pole or sign, pull the handle, walk back to the car, wait for the crossing gate to go up, and then drive on without appearing several times on such a camera.
If pulling the emergency stop released a dye package (like they put in the bank robbers' bag of loot, at least in TV and movies), it would be impossible for the culprit to deny responsibility. On the other hand, if it was really an emergency (e.g. driving someone to the hospital or there was a vehicle stuck on the tracks), having the dye all over your clothes and hands would be a badge of honor.


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## jis (Jan 12, 2022)

It should be understood though that just pulling the handle does not guarantee that you'd not get hit by a train. Only reduces the chances considerably.

And it still does not solve the problem of a plane somehow crashing on a track away from a road crossing thus equipped.


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## caravanman (Jan 12, 2022)

Here in the UK, railway employees know how to turn green electric train signals to danger by use of track circuit clips. If these work in the US too, then issuing these low tech items to emergency service vehicles might be one idea?


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## jis (Jan 12, 2022)

caravanman said:


> Here in the UK, railway employees know how to turn green electric train signals to danger by use of track circuit clips. If these work in the US too, then issuing these low tech items to emergency service vehicles might be one idea?


That would work if there is track circuit in the area, which is not guaranteed in the brave new world of GPS driven PTC, and axle counters to determine section occupancy.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 12, 2022)

caravanman said:


> Here in the UK, railway employees know how to turn green electric train signals to danger by use of track circuit clips. If these work in the US too, then issuing these low tech items to emergency service vehicles might be one idea?


Even leaving a lit flare on the tracks a mile down the line in both directions could do wonders for reducing severity.


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## west point (Jan 12, 2022)

If arriving or at scene of incident-----------
1. If crossing call number on blue sign if possible then 911 if possible.
2. If not at crossing call the RR if you know which one or make an educated guess calling probable RR. 
3.. Render first aid if needed.
4. Remove anyone if possible from tracks perpendicular away from tracks.
5. Place flares if available either side of incident.
If you hear train walk toward sound on with flare and / or shirt. 
6. If not needed at scene walk toward any mile marker (MM) and call RR with the mile number and if RR ID is on marker. Remember any block signal box will have identification of location. Other structures may have ID as well.
7. Otherwise walk, if possible, toward closest curve with operating flare or white shirt to flag down a train. Go around curve for some distance noting any MM. Place flare or red or white shirt on stick in middle of track. 
8. Return to scene and walk in other direction of track repeating above.


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## Cal (Jan 12, 2022)

I'm curious how long it actually takes 6-car length commuter and intercity trains to stop. I believe they enter stations at around 25-30, and they stop with room to spare (or slow down and crawl for a little before coming to stop to ensure they're at the right place). A platform is around 600-700 feet? So if they take around 700 feet to slow down 30mph, it'd take about 2100 feet to slow from 90? And brakes need to kick in so.... 2500-2700? 

Is my math right or am I totally off?


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## TinCan782 (Jan 12, 2022)

Cal said:


> I'm curious how long it actually takes 6-car length commuter and intercity trains to stop. I believe they enter stations at around 25-30, and they stop with room to spare (or slow down and crawl for a little before coming to stop to ensure they're at the right place). A platform is around 600-700 feet? So if they take around 700 feet to slow down 30mph, it'd take about 2100 feet to slow from 90? And brakes need to kick in so.... 2500-2700?
> 
> Is my math right or am I totally off?


Don't know about your math. From the Metrolink Timetable, the "Maximum Authorized Speed" (passenger) is 60 in the vicinity of the Sylmar/San Fernando Station (north of the crash site). Beginning just south of the station the speed is 79 which includes the vicinity of the crash site.


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## WWW (Jan 13, 2022)

MATH - 60 mph is a mile a minute - 5 miles covered in 5 minutes with no speed adjustment

With more than a mile long coal and grain trains and the modular and mix bag freights I have often it heard -
A train of that length weight and kinetic movement takes a mile to stop without derailing (jack-knifing) cars -
So after an accident maybe 40-50 - more - cars will run over the debris scene of the accident -
something to consider if in the vicinity of that scene - stay away and stay safe especially with hazardous cargo

With this passenger train - that airplane was demolished to light weight airborne pieces -
There was no loading platform evident in the vicinity - so the train was at speed no slowing to stop and
the train set did not stop until w-a-y pass the accident scene (no reports of how far - no reports of passenger
injuries on the train making an emergency stop)

The accident reports and findings will be months away -
Will there likely be a repeat of this accident - NO -
But will the authorities be keen on how to timely stop a train from compounding an accident scene ? ? ?
There has to be a solution beyond the basic PTC elements - - -


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## jis (Jan 13, 2022)

Strictly speaking grade crossing gate timing and intrusion detection is an add on layer over basic PTC anyway.


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## Rambling Robert (Jan 13, 2022)

The Cessna pilot declared a Mayday which is very serious and air traffic control obviously knew it. Apparently by the time the Metrolink dispatcher and train engineer heard of the emergency .... something got lost in the translation.

The protocol that would work is the Metrolink dispatcher confirms a Mayday distress and that makes future communications and protocols very important.


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## Trogdor (Jan 13, 2022)

Cal said:


> I'm curious how long it actually takes 6-car length commuter and intercity trains to stop. I believe they enter stations at around 25-30, and they stop with room to spare (or slow down and crawl for a little before coming to stop to ensure they're at the right place). A platform is around 600-700 feet? So if they take around 700 feet to slow down 30mph, it'd take about 2100 feet to slow from 90? And brakes need to kick in so.... 2500-2700?
> 
> Is my math right or am I totally off?



Stopping distance is not linear with speed. The rate of deceleration isn't necessarily linear, but depending on the situation, it could be close enough.

If we assume the _time_ it takes to go from 30 to 0 is the same as the time it takes to go from 90 to 60 or 60 to 30, the distance covered will certainly not be the same.

I don't have specific data available, but one quick Google search has suggested some trains have an emergency braking deceleration of 1.4 m/s2, which translates, very roughly, to 3 mph/second. In other words, to go from 90 mph to 60 mph would take 10 seconds, 60 to 30 mph would take 10 seconds, and 30 to 0 would take 10 seconds.

The total braking time would be 30 seconds (plus a bit of a factor as the brakes build up to maximum effectiveness). However, the distance traveled when you are going from 90 mph to 60 mph in 10 seconds is considerably farther than the distance traveled when going from 30 mph to 0 in 10 seconds. Remember, after the first 10 seconds of braking, you're still traveling twice as fast as you are on a train going 30 mph, meaning that you've probably covered roughly 2.5-ish (rough approximation) times the distance of a train that was going a constant 30 mph (let alone one that was slowing down from 30 to 0).

In the next 10 seconds, you've gone from 60 to 30, you've covered yet again another 1.5 (ish) times the distance of a train traveling at a constant 30 mph. Going from 30 to 0 covers 0.5 (ish) the distance of a constant 30 mph. I say "ish" because the actual distance covered is more of a curve than linear. In reality, you're covering a higher distance because of the time you spend at a higher speed while you slow down. Even using these rough numbers, a train slowing down from 90 mph would require 9 times the distance of a train slowing down from 30 mph.

Apply that to a train making a controlled stop on a 600-foot platform, and the engineer needs to start braking at least 5400 feet (i.e. over a mile) in advance of the stop. Certainly not 2100-2700 feet.


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## basketmaker (Jan 13, 2022)

Okay a Cessna 172 uses Avgas 100 or 110 which is highly flammable! The fuel tanks are in the wings of the aircraft. There is minimal if any fuel leakage shown in the video after the plane's wings clipped the various poles (crossing guards, lights, etc). And the fact that even after the train hit it and it pretty much disintegrated there was no fire? My guess is that the original airplane emergency was lack of fuel?

As for the delay in stopping the train I would venture that the officers on scene radioed their dispatch and then it took a minute or so to locate the phone number for the railroad and then a minute or so for the railroad to verify exact location before contacting any trains in the vicinity. As for the blue emergency signs at crossing I would say the officers were probably more focused on getting the pilot out and medical attention for him than looking around for a phone number. Not to mention was the blue sign even posted at the crossing? 

The train speed also seems off as the track in dead straight for 3.24 miles prior to the crash scene. Was the train operator not paying attention (not the first time MetroLink drivers weren't)? He/she had a perfect line of sight for a long distance to throw the train into emergency. Or at least slow it down.

As someone stated we hopefully will get all the details in the NTSB report.


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## Ryan (Jan 13, 2022)

basketmaker said:


> As someone stated we hopefully will get all the details in the NTSB report.


Indeed. So maybe hold off on speculating that the pilot or engineer were negligent.

A simple look at Google Maps shows that the sign you question is present:


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## basketmaker (Jan 13, 2022)

Ryan said:


> Indeed. So maybe hold off on speculating that the pilot or engineer were negligent.
> 
> A simple look at Google Maps shows that the sign you question is present:
> View attachment 26725


Call it speculating if you desire just as others have been doing in the thread. As for the blue sign yes in that snapshot (April 2021) it is posted as well from the other direction. Just if it was there at the time of the crash?


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## willem (Jan 13, 2022)

Oh, thank you. I needed an exercise in applied math.


Cal said:


> [...] So if they take around 700 feet to slow down 30mph, it'd take about 2100 feet to slow from 90? And brakes need to kick in so.... 2500-2700?
> 
> Is my math right or am I totally off?


As Trogdor noted, "Stopping distance is not linear with speed." I wonder if deceleration is constant, because braking is changing kinetic energy to some other form of energy (often heat energy), and kinetic energy varies with the square of speed. Something going 90 mph has nine times the kinetic energy of something going 30 mph. But a varying deceleration makes computation more difficult, so let's assume a constant deceleration.


Trogdor said:


> [...] some trains have an emergency braking deceleration of 1.4 m/s2, which translates, very roughly, to 3 mph/second. [...]


I have no better number, so let's use 3 mph/second as deceleration.

The time dependent location of an object (train) moving on a straight line (track, with no curve) in the direction of travel at constant acceleration is the starting point (milepost, assumed to be zero) plus the change due to the initial speed plus the change due to the acceleration. In other words,
s(t) = s0 + v0*t + 0.5*a0*t^2 where s0 is the initial location, v0 is the initial speed, and a0 is the initial acceleration (assumed to be constant).

Consistency in units is important. Let's use miles and hours. As I said, I assume the initial location is at zero. I'll assume the initial speed is 60 mph, although it was probably higher, based on *TinCan782*'s comment. (Plug in a different number if you want to assume a different initial speed.) I'll assume constant acceleration of -3 mph/second, or -(3*3600) mph/hour, based on *Trogdor*'s comment.

The location of interest is where the speed is zero. If the initial speed is 60 mph and it drops by 10,800 mph every hour, then it will be zero after 60/10800 hours, or 0.00556 hours. (Three digits should provide sufficient accuracy, but feel free to use more digits if you like.) Plugging that value into the formula, 
s(0.00556) = 0 + 60*0.00556 - 0.5*10800*0.00556*0.00556

Evaluating the expression, we find the train comes to a stop after 0.1667 miles, one sixth of a mile.

Whenever conducting a thought experiment like this, it is useful to ask, "Is that answer reasonable?" With an initial speed of 60 mph and a deceleration of 3 mph/second, it would take 20 seconds to slow to zero. Happily, 0.00556 hours is 20.016 seconds; the difference is a rounding error because I didn't carry more digits. A train going 60 mph will cover 1/3 of a mile in 20 seconds, so certainly the answer should be less than 1/3 of a mile. Since the assumed deceleration is constant, it seem reasonable that the distance covered would be half the distance covered with no deceleration. Happily, 0.1667 miles is half of 1/3 of a mile. Whatever mistakes I made, I seem to have made them consistently. Corrections and clarifications are welcome.


Trogdor said:


> [...] I say "ish" because the actual distance covered is more of a curve than linear. In reality, you're covering a higher distance because of the time you spend at a higher speed while you slow down. Even using these rough numbers, a train slowing down from 90 mph would require 9 times the distance of a train slowing down from 30 mph. [...]


I'm gratified to see that a 90 mph train takes 9 times longer to stop than a 30 mph train, exactly in line with the change in kinetic energy.

Because the deceleration is constant, you needn't say "ish". If you plot the speed versus time, you get a triangle. The distance covered is the area under the triangle. You are correct that "the distance covered is more of a curve" but the change in the rate of covering the distance is constant, as indicated by assuming a deceleration of 3 mph/second.

However, I think you slipped up somewhere in your calculations. If the train is going 90 mph, then it travels 1.5 miles every minute or 0.75 miles every 30 seconds. If it takes the train 30 seconds to slow to a stop, it cannot go more than 0.75 miles as comes to that stop.


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## west point (Jan 13, 2022)

Just a thought. Did the airport control tower have the RR emergency number? With the 2 or more persons in the control tower, one could have called 911 and maybe they did and one call the RR. Since the control tower has view of the RR you would think they would have the number in case of a derailment?


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## Dutchrailnut (Jan 13, 2022)

the tower may not have had a clue as to were plane crashed , if it was on radar they would only know were it disappeared from screen .
for crossings there is no general emergency number only the number on ENS sign and ID posted is relevant. even a road name is not relevant as road name a railroad uses is not always same as official name and sometimes a road crosses tracks multiple times so which crossing is it .


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## Cal (Jan 13, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> Stopping distance is not linear with speed. The rate of deceleration isn't necessarily linear, but depending on the situation, it could be close enough.
> 
> If we assume the _time_ it takes to go from 30 to 0 is the same as the time it takes to go from 90 to 60 or 60 to 30, the distance covered will certainly not be the same.
> 
> ...


Ah I knew I had to be off. Thanks for the quick lesson.


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## John Santos (Jan 14, 2022)

Dutchrailnut said:


> the tower may not have had a clue as to were plain crashed , if it was on radar they would only know were it disappeared from screen .
> for crossings there is no general emergency number only the number on ENS sign and ID posted is relevant. even a road name is not relevant as road name a railroad uses is not always same as official name and sometimes a road crosses tracks multiple times so which crossing is it .


The pilot declared an emergency as he was taking off, too late to stop before running out of runway (after V1, if my memory of all my "Air Disaster" pandemic binge watching is correct.) He was talking to the tower.

The grade crossing where he crashed was at the 1st perpendicular street after the end of the airport's only runway. There are no buildings or trees or other obstructions except the airport perimeter fence between the runway and the street.

The railroad tracks are parallel and about 200 feet away from the runway. It was (or should have been) in easy sight of the tower, which is located between the tracks and the runway, about 1500' to 2000' from the intersection. There are no trees, buildings or hills between the airport and the tracks, street or intersection. Maybe just a low fence and a lot of flat dirt.

No radar involved, it was all VFR.


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## Trogdor (Jan 14, 2022)

willem said:


> Oh, thank you. I needed an exercise in applied math.
> 
> As Trogdor noted, "Stopping distance is not linear with speed." I wonder if deceleration is constant, because braking is changing kinetic energy to some other form of energy (often heat energy), and kinetic energy varies with the square of speed. Something going 90 mph has nine times the kinetic energy of something going 30 mph. But a varying deceleration makes computation more difficult, so let's assume a constant deceleration.
> 
> ...



I should clarify a couple of things. First, the deceleration rate was obtained by a quick google search, and not really validated (shame on me). Digging further, it seems that rate was for light rail trains, and a train such as Metrolink or Amtrak could have a deceleration rate 1/2 to 1/3 of that value.

Second, that was just a general example to show the math. The 5400-foot distance was taking Cal’s note of trains going from 30 to 0 in a distance of 600 feet (which I have also not specifically validated) and extrapolating that. But in that case, that refers to a train not in emergency but rather a train doing a normal service stop, and that deceleration rate will be much lower. The basic point was to show how a train going 3x as fast doesn’t stop in 3x the distance.


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## willem (Jan 14, 2022)

Trogdor said:


> [...] First, the deceleration rate was obtained by a quick google search, and not really validated (shame on me). [...]


No shame there.


Trogdor said:


> [...] The 5400-foot distance was taking Cal’s note of trains going from 30 to 0 in a distance of 600 feet [...]


Ah, understood.


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## tgstubbs1 (Jan 14, 2022)

The main question for me is, in this day of almost instantaneous communications, what are the weak links? Why the failure?


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## Ryan (Jan 14, 2022)

You're trying to pass information across three separate domains - you've got the ATC folks, the police folks, and the RR folks. They're not designed to inter operate with one another, so crossing the streams is difficult (and generally inadvisable). Perhaps you can solve the problem by putting a RR radio in the tower, with instructions to "in case of emergency, use this radio to call this dispatcher and tell him the tracks are fouled at this location", but that's really solving an edge case of and edge case.


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## WWW (Jan 14, 2022)

Deleted - - -


Ryan said:


> You're trying to pass information across three separate domains - you've got the ATC folks, the police folks, and the RR folks. They're not designed to inter operate with one another, so crossing the streams is difficult (and generally inadvisable). Perhaps you can solve the problem by putting a RR radio in the tower, with instructions to "in case of emergency, use this radio to call this dispatcher and tell him the tracks are fouled at this location", but that's really solving an edge case of and edge case.


Maybe sort of like having a "RED PHONE" to call to avoid a nuclear global warming melt-down.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 14, 2022)

Out of the dozens or perhaps hundreds of train impacts we have discussed on the forum this honestly does not seem all that bad to me. Nor does it seem likely to be repeated without special corrective action. Pilot survived, police got a win, bystanders got a story, someone got video of his own shrapnel dodging, and even the media was happy. Out of all the things to worry about this is some of the highest hanging fruit that can be seen clearly without a telescope.


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## Rambling Robert (Jan 14, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Out of the dozens or perhaps hundreds of train impacts we have discussed on the forum this honestly does not seem all that bad to me. Nor does it seem likely to be repeated without special corrective action. Pilot survived, police got a win, bystanders got a story, someone got video of his own shrapnel dodging, and even the media was happy. Out of all the things to worry about this is some of the highest hanging fruit that can be seen clearly without a telescope.


You’re joking right?
Five police officers came very close to losing their lives AS WELL AS a retired USAF pilot. It’s been 95 years since MayDay MayDay MayDay was established as a universal EMERGENCY call across the entire aviation world... where English is the common language. 

As a result all RAPID ACTION efforts are made to respond to the aircraft emergency including shutting the airport down if needed.

What universal distress call is associated with the railroads?


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 14, 2022)

We've been talking about this one at work lately because it's so far out there. Then we go ahead and jokingly ask the next question. Who's jurisdiction FRA, or FAA. Definitely this hits the NTSB.


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## Rambling Robert (Jan 14, 2022)

Seaboard92 said:


> We've been talking about this one at work lately because it's so far out there. Then we go ahead and jokingly ask the next question. Who's jurisdiction FRA, or FAA. Definitely this hits the NTSB.


IMO Secretary Pete should be working on this.

Inter-agencies typically have a joint services agreement ex. Police: state/county/local. Army/Navy/Marines/USAF. 911/Mayday


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## Cal (Jan 14, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> What universal distress call is associated with the railroads?


I do feel that there is less of a need for a universal distress call with (American) railroads. Aviation and railroading are two very different things and the need for a universal distress call is needed much more in aviation, where they might not know their nearest airport, and they need information on arrival, and they need to make sure ATC knows to keep their path clear so ATC can in turn direct planes away. Trains can stop anywhere, the crew should know their surroundings, and PTC is there on most major lines to stop other trains around them if the dispatcher fails to do their job.


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 15, 2022)

basketmaker said:


> Okay a Cessna 172 uses Avgas 100 or 110 which is highly flammable! The fuel tanks are in the wings of the aircraft. There is minimal if any fuel leakage shown in the video after the plane's wings clipped the various poles (crossing guards, lights, etc). And the fact that even after the train hit it and it pretty much disintegrated there was no fire? My guess is that the original airplane emergency was lack of fuel?
> 
> …


I respectfully disagree about the fuel leakage shown in the officers body cam. I see liquid on both sides of the aircraft on the ground. On the copilot side, there is quite a bit of a wet area running down 20’ or so. The 172s I know do not have a wet wing, so the tank is a second separate vessel inside the wing skin (meaning the skin could be torn up/bent some and the inner tank may have less damage and not leak as much as would be expected). Why it didn’t ignite? I don’t’ know…


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 15, 2022)

The thought occurs, how inappropriate would it be for a bystander/participant scanning RR frequencies with transmit capability transmit a Mayday on such freq. to any approaching train?


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## neroden (Jan 15, 2022)

Since these airplanes, unconscionably, are running leaded gasoline, that's a toxics spill.


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 15, 2022)

neroden said:


> Since these airplanes, unconscionably, are running leaded gasoline, that's a toxics spill.


Yes with the benzene and toluene xylene at likely much higher concentrations than the lead, nasty stuff! I would assume the authorities on the scene are experienced at dealing with a spill like this. My daughter is LE and she says they call the fire department to come clean up the mess. The fire department has training for this. It could be around 50 gallons to deal with depending on which tank size this 172 had, so typically I could see this like a bad two car collision. The FAA has been so slow to certify a 100 unleaded, it is frustrating. There is a candidate now called G100UL that should be a full replacement for 100LL avgas for the fleet, but it may be later in 2022 for full certification and possibly 2023? for a full availability.
edit: I talked to my firefighter friend, he notes if the spill is small, they use oil-dri on it, and then scoop it up after it drys. Then they dispose of the oil-dri in a proper manner, hazmat to the landfill. If it is really bad like a tanker or something, they call in a commercial cleanup company. They are very conscious of a spill into surface water, like on a bridge! If the spill is big enough there may be EPA forms that need filled out.


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## HenryK (Jan 16, 2022)

As a private pilot I was struck by the fact that there was no fuel fire, either upon landing or the train strike. That makes me wonder if the pilot took off with nearly empty tanks and just ran out of gas.


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 16, 2022)

HenryK said:


> As a private pilot I was struck by the fact that there was no fuel fire, either upon landing or the train strike. That makes me wonder if the pilot took off with nearly empty tanks and just ran out of gas.


Yes, I wondered that too, but when I look at the body cam footage, I can clearly see liquid draining out of the damaged pilot side wing, the wing is bent down and back a little, and there is liquid pouring out on the pavement/tracks. On the copilot side there is a larger puddle making it’s way across the pavement. The copilot side wing has less apparent damage. Maybe it got misfueled with less apt to catch fire jet-a?


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## Tlcooper93 (Jan 16, 2022)

HenryK said:


> As a private pilot I was struck by the fact that there was no fuel fire, either upon landing or the train strike. That makes me wonder if the pilot took off with nearly empty tanks and just ran out of gas.


Seems like he did a commendable job trying to perform a dead stick landing after takeoff. Probably contributed to lack of fire too. 

He didn’t file a flight plan; it was a nice day. All that contributed to his eventual survival.


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## Dutchrailnut (Jan 16, 2022)




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## VentureForth (Jan 18, 2022)

Dutchrailnut said:


> the tower may not have had a clue as to were plane crashed , if it was on radar they would only know were it disappeared from screen .
> for crossings there is no general emergency number only the number on ENS sign and ID posted is relevant. even a road name is not relevant as road name a railroad uses is not always same as official name and sometimes a road crosses tracks multiple times so which crossing is it .


According to the video below, the pilot declared "Mayday Mayday Mayday - Railroad Track"

Cessna #N8056L crashes on Railroad Tracks | Pilot rescued seconds before train comes! - YouTube

I actually rode just past this site on Metrolink's AV line on Sunday. Really nothing to report from my ride - I couldn't see if the blue signs were still up on the crossing lights. 

Tragically, residents are calling for the closure of Whiteman airport. Just another NIMBY protest.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 18, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> Tragically, residents are calling for the closure of Whiteman airport. Just another NIMBY protest.


Nearby residents without private supercar-priced aircraft have suffered crashes, fires, and related disruptions in the last few years and are now looking at replacing an airport that caters to wealthy joyriders with more jobs and services for the community that actually lives there. That seems like a reasonable goal to me.


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## VentureForth (Jan 18, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Residents have suffered multiple crashes, fires, and related disruptions/cleanup in the last few years but if they want to close an airport that caters to joyrides in supercar-priced personal aircraft you consider _that_ to be the tragedy?


Yes. You don't think there is an economy that is dependent on the airport? 16 accidents in 13 years. Only two fatalities that I can find quickly. I'm sure there were many more tragedies on the 5 in the last month. Let's shut it down. Or heck, even Metrolink has had more fatalities in that time frame. I KNOW many residents would love to see it shut down.

The idea that trained individuals are joyriding in expensive toys is irresponsible. Flight training is used far beyond recreational pleasure. I know many small business owners who relied on their private pilot license to increase productivity. Meanwhile, plenty of people are using unmonitored public freeways for their real joy rides in their real expensive cars threatening the public. I've only been in CA for 8 days, but the illegal street racing here is out of control.

On another note, Metrolink smashing into a Cessna will produce a LOT less damage to the train (so long as the fuel doesn't explode) than hitting a car. You're talking 1500 lbs of aluminum vs 4000 lbs+ of steel.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 18, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> Yes. You don't think there is an economy that is dependent on the airport? 16 accidents in 13 years. Only two fatalities that I can find quickly. I'm sure there were many more tragedies on the 5 in the last month. Let's shut it down. Or heck, even Metrolink has had more fatalities in that time frame. I KNOW many residents would love to see it shut down.


Nearly every nearby resident uses roads while very few use private aircraft and if jobs are the focus then I would imagine you can generate a lot more of them by replacing a general aviation airport with other businesses.



VentureForth said:


> The idea that trained individuals are joyriding in expensive toys is irresponsible. Flight training is used far beyond recreational pleasure. I know many small business owners who relied on their private pilot license to increase productivity.


The claim that private aircraft are used as expensive toys is irresponsible because you know some business owners who used their aircraft for "productivity?" This does not sound like a compelling counterargument to me.



VentureForth said:


> Meanwhile, plenty of people are using unmonitored public freeways for their real joy rides in their real expensive cars threatening the public. I've only been in CA for 8 days, but the illegal street racing here is out of control.


I agree and fully support all crackdowns on street racing. I'd even support banning every mind-numbing _Fast and Furious _movie and locking up anyone associated therewith.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jan 18, 2022)

Given the rigor with which they test pilots (I’m just about to test for my next rating; I speak from experience), the term joy ride is a misnomer. Furthermore, flight training is a crucial and necessary part of of our society. To reduce it to rich people wanting expensive toys, when in reality, it is the training of a future workforce, is just silly. During Covid lockdown, I seriously considered switching careers to become a pilot for Tradewinds charter company (as music had come to a stand-still). My training in a 172 was useful, and wasn’t just some rich person looking to knock off and have fun. 

There are irresponsible and bad pilots, but they are few and far between. The pilot in this incident did an amazing job, and should be commended for his skill.


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## west point (Jan 18, 2022)

The most dangerous pilot a doctor in a Beechcraft. It has been the case many times around here.. Just speculation but many pilot errors are lack of concentration to fly the aircraft. Working out a problem at work when flying is a receipt for disaster. Many times, just a violation not an accident.


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## Cal (Jan 18, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> Tragically, residents are calling for the closure of Whiteman airport. Just another NIMBY protest.


I swear they are so bad down here. Apparently residents of Bel-Air are having a fit about the Metro Sepulveda Pass digging through Bel-Air underground -- far enough that it will have NO effect on them.


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## Rambling Robert (Jan 19, 2022)

I subscribe to VasAviation which post tower conversations at various airports in the world. This event was archived and has about 900 comments! 

The air trafffic controller at We horseman AAirport, shortly after the crash, was in contact with a witness flying nearby. I believe she is from civil air patrol. The atc knew the 911 went out and then allowed one aircraft waiting a clearance to takeofff.

The vasaviation archive ends before the lift of the closiure of Whiteman airport

of 900 comments - some are informative and I found it hard to believe that it is very very convoluted to have dispatch stop the train.

iMO the local LAPD should have had direct contact MetroLink - to FULL STOPp m all threats.


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## tgstubbs1 (Jan 19, 2022)

Rambling Robert said:


> of 900 comments - some are informative and I found it hard to believe that it is very very convoluted to have dispatch stop the train.



Surely nothing like this could ever happen again. And if it did they could certainly rescue all involved with no loss of life, just like this time.


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## VentureForth (Jan 19, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Nearly every nearby resident uses roads while very few use private aircraft and if jobs are the focus then I would imagine you can generate a lot more of them by replacing a general aviation airport with other businesses.


505 aircraft are based at Whiteman, including several news helicopters. There are over 300 takeoffs and landings daily. All are "General Aviation" which means non-airline use. Half of those operations are by transients - pilots that have come from other places for any reason: business, pleasure, training, etc. In other words. 75 flights (150 take offs and landings) per day are from people that had a reason to go there. That's much more than "a few" and many times more than many airports that have scheduled commercial airline service. Of course, I welcome your counterview as a devil's advocate. 

Whiteman Airport (WHP) Transport Statistics (airport-data.com)


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 19, 2022)

tgstubbs1 said:


> Surely nothing like this could ever happen again. And if it did they could certainly rescue all involved with no loss of life, just like this time.


Well, noting it has happened before:








HIGH POINT CONFIDENTIAL: High Point pilot’s plane was hit by … a train?!


HIGH POINT




www.hpenews.com


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 19, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> 505 aircraft are based at Whiteman, including several news helicopters. There are over 300 takeoffs and landings daily. All are "General Aviation" which means non-airline use. Half of those operations are by transients - pilots that have come from other places for any reason: business, pleasure, training, etc. In other words. 75 flights (150 take offs and landings) per day are from people that had a reason to go there. That's much more than "a few" and many times more than many airports that have scheduled commercial airline service. Of course, I welcome your counterview as a devil's advocate.
> 
> Whiteman Airport (WHP) Transport Statistics (airport-data.com)


Barton Heliport is there too, right, headquarters for LA County Fire Department Air Ops. Are firefighters wealthy joyriders?


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## Tlcooper93 (Jan 19, 2022)

UserNameRequired said:


> Barton Heliport is there too, right, headquarters for LA County Fire Department Air Ops. Are firefighters wealthy joyriders?



maybe all pilots, regardless of vocation, are joy riders. I get joy from flying.


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## basketmaker (Jan 19, 2022)

It is the same as many of my neighbors complaining about train horns and/or long trains blocking crossings as they go through. The question is why did you move into a new area/neighborhood and start whining when those tracks have been in place well over 100 years? I grew up 1900' from one of Miami International Airport's runways before air conditioning in homes was common. Windows open 24/7 and no problems at all! I currently live 2200' from BNSF's Brush-sub and 2.5 miles from Denver International and again no issues. My guess would be that the airport was built many years ago and homes/businesses came later. 

Also, a Cessna 172 is far from a $5M-$10M business jet to go "joy-riding" in. Those business jets used by the so-call "elites" are used for business not joy riding at $2K-$4K an hour to operate. Though C-172s are used for business too. The aircraft I've flown in the most was a 172 owned by a professional photographer that was based in Miami and bought the plane new over the phone. My dad taught him to fly. And he expanded his business to 8 locations around the country. He would use the plane to fly to them versus hours driving.


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## tgstubbs1 (Jan 19, 2022)

UserNameRequired said:


> Well, noting it has happened before:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the impact had buried the engine in the path of the oncoming train it could have derailed. 

Great story and pictures!


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## tgstubbs1 (Jan 19, 2022)

basketmaker said:


> start whining when those tracks have been in place well over 100 years?



Good point, but I think trains blow their whistles( horns) a lot more than they used to. I'm not sure if that helps, judging from the number of collisions these days.


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## UserNameRequired (Jan 24, 2022)

NTSB Preliminary Report, Aviation side:


https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/104510/pdf


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 24, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> Of course, I welcome your counterview as a devil's advocate.


My core position on this topic is pretty simple. I think the local residents and taxpayers should be allowed to decide what (if anything) is done with the airport. For airport supporters the solution is obvious. Do as much as you can to prevent arriving and departing aircraft from crashing into the surrounding neighborhoods. The more the airport can show that it is doing to prevent future crashes the stronger the case for keeping it open. If I was a supporter I'd be looking for options to improve safety based on prior crashes and typical GA risks. There is very little information in the preliminary report but a quick check indicates the aircraft was owned and operated by a 70-year old man. In most adults there is a significant cognitive decline starting around age 60 so maybe flying solo from a densely populated airport at age 70+ is a risk factor that can be addressed by means other than closing the airport.


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## Tlcooper93 (Jan 24, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> My core position on this topic is pretty simple. I think the local residents and taxpayers should be allowed to decide what (if anything) is done with the airport. For airport supporters the solution is obvious. Do as much as you can to prevent arriving and departing aircraft from crashing into the surrounding neighborhoods. The more the airport can show that it is doing to prevent future crashes the stronger the case for keeping it open. If I was a supporter I'd be looking for options to improve safety based on prior crashes and typical GA risks. There is very little information in the preliminary report but a quick check indicates the aircraft was owned and operated by a 70-year old man. In most adults there is a significant cognitive decline starting around age 60 so maybe flying solo from a densely populated airport at age 70+ is a risk factor that can be addressed by means other than closing the airport.



There are far too many factors at play to here to make any assumptions of incompetence based on age. Suggesting that airports should discriminate based on age won’t improve incident rates (instead, the medical should be a harder to pass) unless there is widespread rollout of such a rule; in fact there have been moves to increase the retiring age from 60-65 for airlines in order to address the pilot shortage. It is more or less what already exists around the world.

Many 70 year olds are more than competent pilots, and so far, evidence points towards this pilot actually performing well in the situation at hand and not making any mistakes (though if a report comes along that says otherwise, of course, share). Indeed I doubt if I could have handled the situation any better, other my body being my a little stronger due to being 28.

Losing power on takeoff is incredibly rare and extremely dangerous, and he performed admirably. If he did miss something (and that’s not a guarantee) it may have been in the preflight, but I’d consider that dubious.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 24, 2022)

Tlcooper93 said:


> There are far too many factors at play to here to make any assumptions of incompetence based on age. Suggesting that airports should discriminate based on age won’t improve incident rates (instead, the medical should be a harder to pass) unless there is widespread rollout of such a rule; in fact there have been moves to increase the retiring age from 60-65 for airlines in order to address the pilot shortage. It is more or less what already exists around the world.


I realize many countries allow commercial pilots to fly until they die but I would not want to replicate that standard here. From what I've seen knowing you're too old to be safe is a bit like knowing you're too impaired to drive home.



Tlcooper93 said:


> Losing power on takeoff is incredibly rare and extremely dangerous, and he performed admirably. If he did miss something (and that’s not a guarantee) it may have been in the preflight, but I’d consider that dubious.


Unfortunately losing aircraft into the surrounding neighborhoods is not rare enough for this particular airport. Maybe this will eventually blow over but the more crashes they suffer the more leverage they forfeit to their detractors.


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## PeeweeTM (Jan 25, 2022)

Sorry, some late add-ons about the train side, slightly related/as reference:

Braking distance for a single German BR203 locomotive out of full power at about 60 mph is about 2350 ft. Cast iron brake shoes, no other active brakes. Passenger trains over here would stop in a shorter distance out of this starting speed, because they have electro-magnetic brakes which glue the train on the tracks.
ERA (my tax Euros at work) has some information about braking curves, scroll a bit downwards on this ERA-site, if you feel nerdy today. It even has a braking curve simulator. The PDF "Introduction to ETCS braking curves" ... err ... gives a good intoduction to braking curves.
If I push the alarm button on my GSM-R train radio, all engineers in my radio cell and in the neighbouring cells hear an annoying sound. They will slow down their train's speed to below 25 mph and start running prepared to stop for anything. Off course, passing pilots would not hear this and just maintain speed, altitude and heading. Or so I hope.


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## VentureForth (Jan 25, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> In another news rerport, an officer did state they attempted to contact Metrolink to stop all trains. The police station was only a couple blocks from the crash site.


That, to me, sounds very irresponsible. The cop shop is literally a block away. Why would they ask Metrolink to stop ALL trains? They should have a pretty good understanding that only the Antelope Valley line is affected on that stretch of track. That, if accurately happened as reported, could have created much more confusion.



Tlcooper93 said:


> Losing power on takeoff is incredibly rare and extremely dangerous, and he performed admirably. If he did miss something (and that’s not a guarantee) it may have been in the preflight, but I’d consider that dubious.


I've had a near engine failure on takeoff. Engine sputtered after takeoff after I already flew the pattern once. Turned out that moisture in the tanks from condensation wasn't in the fuel lines when I sumped the tanks, and the action of turning in the pattern sploshed the fuel around enough to bring down the water. Fortunately, I never lost all power, and was able to make a 180 back to the runway. 

That being said, I doubt there's that much moisture in the air in all of LA county to have been the cause here. It'll be interesting to see what the reports say.

PDF of the preliminary report is here: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/104510/pdf but it doesn't really have any information in it we don't already know (except that a Southbound train apparently was travelling North).


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## west point (Jan 25, 2022)

On a cross country flight stopped at a very remote airport to fuel. First clue old farmer type fueled with a cigar burning. We ran away from aircraft. Second clue. We went to get something eat. fortunately, did sump the wings and found some moisture. That was a big lesson learned. Internationally some fuel trucks have a sump which a pilot will check before fuel pumped in. Hydrant fueling there is another procedure I used never leaving after fuel complete,


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## Cal (Jan 25, 2022)

VentureForth said:


> That, to me, sounds very irresponsible. The cop shop is literally a block away. Why would they ask Metrolink to stop ALL trains? They should have a pretty good understanding that only the Antelope Valley line is affected on that stretch of track. That, if accurately happened as reported, could have created much more confusion.


From my understanding they meant all trains on those tracks, seems the most obvious and what I think most people's minds would jump to.


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## WWW (Jan 25, 2022)

Cal said:


> From my understanding they meant all trains on those tracks, seems the most obvious and what I think most people's minds would jump to.


That certainly make sense - stop ALL trains i.e. EB CZ SL etc. 
I would bet that Monday morning quarterbacking that that local police station now has direct communication with Amtrak and is aware or
more aware of the train schedule.
Fortunately minimal damage to ground structures -
One dinged locomotive -
One Cessna going to the recycle metal factory -
and best of all the Pilot survived to tell what happened


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## Asher (Jan 26, 2022)

WWW said:


> That certainly make sense - stop ALL trains i.e. EB CZ SL etc.
> I would bet that Monday morning quarterbacking that that local police station now has direct communication with Amtrak and is aware or
> more aware of the train schedule.
> Fortunately minimal damage to ground structures -
> ...



Like you say, a lot of lucky people get to go home.


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## TinCan782 (Jan 26, 2022)

We don't know exactly what did or did not happen regarding notifying Metrolink about this incident and their response.
A post by Metrolink this morning prompted me to ask a general question (not specifically regarding this incident).

Metrolink posted: _Emergency Notification System (ENS) signs are blue and white and provide contact information so drivers and pedestrians can notify the railroad of safety concerns. If your vehicle ever stalls on tracks, immediately evacuate your car and call the number on the sign._
I commented: _When someone calls, who actually answers the phone?_
Metrolink replied: _We have representatives stationed 24/7 to assist with these types of emergencies._

I would like to think that a phone call to their number goes directly to the Metrolink dispatch center in Pomona, CA.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 26, 2022)

TinCan782 said:


> I would like to think that a phone call to their number goes directly to the Metrolink dispatch center in Pomona, CA.


The number posted at crossings near my home went to highway patrol. Maybe the dispatcher was busy and it rolled over to the next in line. Maybe it used to be staffed by UP before the position was retired. I was reporting a bent and broken crossing system so not super urgent but they did not seem to know what to do with my information. After seeing several discussions here on the forum I've been tempted to call it again and see who answers this time.


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## west point (Jan 26, 2022)

My calls to CSX always go to the CSX police department.


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