# NJT rail line from NYC to Atlantic City



## Guest

It sounds like it travels the NEC to phily, then goes out alon the current Atlantic City line, taking 2 1/2 hours. Sounds like three sides of a square to me. Couldn't they extend the shore line, or are there no tracks?

The story is here


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## AlanB

I don't believe that the tracks are still in place on the shore line to run the service. Even if they are still in place, then I'm positive that they are not up to passenger level standards. That would require massive amounts of money to upgrade the tracks to a point where travel times became competitive and viable.

So the easy answer is to run limited stop service down the NEC to just before where the Market Frankford subway line crosses the NEC. The train will then reverse direction and run out the Atlantic City line.


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## blueman271

How is NJT going to run this service into NYC? I dont believe that NJT has any dual-mode diesel engines and i know that there is no catenary line on the Atlantic City route. Is NJT gonna do an engine switch somewhere, or is this really gonna be a through service to Newark or Hoboken with NYC passengers switching anywhere the train stops north of Trenton?


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## AlanB

blueman271 said:


> How is NJT going to run this service into NYC? I dont believe that NJT has any dual-mode diesel engines and i know that there is no catenary line on the Atlantic City route. Is NJT gonna do an engine switch somewhere, or is this really gonna be a through service to Newark or Hoboken with NYC passengers switching anywhere the train stops north of Trenton?


I believe that the intial plan calls for an electric to drag a diesel down the NEC to the AC line, whereupon they'll flip on the diesel and drag the electric to AC.

NJT on the other hand is working on a dual mode loco, which will be needed for their expanded plans on various lines, that include using The Tunnel.


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## rmgreenesq

The linked story indicates that the NYP - Atlantic City service will be with "upscale" equipment. Its been a few years since I've stepped foot on a NJT train but upscale is not an adjective I'd used to describe NJT's rolling stock.

I think NJT will be taking the casino's money and going shopping.

Rick


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## AlanB

rmgreenesq said:


> The linked story indicates that the NYP - Atlantic City service will be with "upscale" equipment. Its been a few years since I've stepped foot on a NJT train but upscale is not an adjective I'd used to describe NJT's rolling stock.
> I think NJT will be taking the casino's money and going shopping.
> 
> Rick


Actually the "upscale" equipment mentioned will be the new Bi-level cars that NJT ordered about two years ago and is just starting to take delivery of. In fact, just last week was the inagural run of the first bi-level trainset. NJT expects to take delivery of about 10 cars per month I believe for the next two years or so and will eventually get some 234 of these new cars, assuming that no other options are excercised.

So no, NJT won't be going shopping with the casino's money. Now I have heard stories that a few of the new cars will be modified slightly for the casino service, to permit food sales while on board, and that will most likely be done with the casino's monies. But again overall the casino operation and money has nothing to do with the new cars that will be used on the special service, as well as the remainder of the cars that will see regular commuter service.


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## Superliner Diner

AlanB said:


> I don't believe that the tracks are still in place on the shore line to run the service. Even if they are still in place, then I'm positive that they are not up to passenger level standards. That would require massive amounts of money to upgrade the tracks to a point where travel times became competitive and viable.
> So the easy answer is to run limited stop service down the NEC to just before where the Market Frankford subway line crosses the NEC. The train will then reverse direction and run out the Atlantic City line.


Just to expand on this a bit.

The "Shore Line" referred to I assume is the NJT North Jersey Coast Line. Those tracks end at Bay Head Junction in a yard loop. Bay Head is so named because it is at the northern end of a narrow peninsula. On that narrow peninsula you have towns like Lavalette, Seaside Heights and Park, etc. There is no room to continue tracks down this peninsula, and at some point you would have to build a bridge over Barnegat Bay and build all new trackage once west or south of the bay.

There was once intra-NJ service to Atlantic City over what is now Conrail Shared Assets trackage through the middle of the state. If you have been following the saga of the proposed Monmouth-Ocean-Middlesex (MOM) rail line, this is the same trackage. While commuter service is currently set to end in Lakehurst, the tracks continue all the way into the southern part of the state. They intersect and connect with NJT's active Atlantic City Line at Winslow Junction. So if the tracks are ever upgraded for MOM, that could be the first segment of a longer route that could ultimately serve Atlantic City (or even Cape May!) without going via Pennsylvania. Of course the same disagreement dogging the MOM line over which route to take between Farmingdale and North Jersey would exist for a potential AC route as well. Leading candidates would be the true MOM, branching off the Northeast Corridor at Monmouth Junction in South Brunswich, or a route branching off the North Jersey Coast Line in Red Bank.


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## jefffromark

They tout this "new" service as all rail and the trip ends at the casino - but in reality not one casino has a rail terminal. Lets say the train averages 500 passengers per trip - once they arrive at the AC rail terminal they have to transfer to buses or other modes of transportation to reach the casino of their choice. Where as if you take a bus from PABT its door to door service. Both Greyhound and Academy offers very frequent service to all casinos except the Borgata.


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## PhilaBurbTom

jefffromark said:


> They tout this "new" service as all rail and the trip ends at the casino - but in reality not one casino has a rail terminal. Lets say the train averages 500 passengers per trip - once they arrive at the AC rail terminal they have to transfer to buses or other modes of transportation to reach the casino of their choice. Where as if you take a bus from PABT its door to door service. Both Greyhound and Academy offers very frequent service to all casinos except the Borgata.


Only because the Borgata's customer demographics would prohibit them being seen on a bus.


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## Superliner Diner

jefffromark said:


> They tout this "new" service as all rail and the trip ends at the casino - but in reality not one casino has a rail terminal. Lets say the train averages 500 passengers per trip - once they arrive at the AC rail terminal they have to transfer to buses or other modes of transportation to reach the casino of their choice. Where as if you take a bus from PABT its door to door service. Both Greyhound and Academy offers very frequent service to all casinos except the Borgata.


It is only about a 3 or 4-block walk from the rail terminal to the Boardwalk, and the tower that was formerly the Claridge Casino and now part of Bally's is well inland from the Boardwalk.

The tracks cannot be brought any closer to the casinos, and in fact the area between the NJT station/Convention Center and the Boardwalk has been redeveloped into an attraction/shopping district called The Walk.


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## blueman271

Sorry for bringing up a topic thats over a year old but I was wondering what ever happened to this idea. According to the wikipedia article ( found here) this service was supposed to start sometime in 07. However when i go to NJT's website and try to plan a trip from NYP to Atlantic City this service is not mentioned whatsoever. So my question is simply this, did this service ever get off the ground or was it just an idea?


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## AlanB

The service was supposed to have started by now, but things fell behind. As of the last update that I've seen, found here, it is currently scheduled to start up sometime this summer.


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## Green Maned Lion

Wonder why they are trying this, and all that. Anyway, I heard NJT leased a few P32ACDMs


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## AlanB

Green Maned Lion said:


> Wonder why they are trying this, and all that. Anyway, I heard NJT leased a few P32ACDMs


They're trying this because finally the casinos are willing to help fund the service, and done right it could be a win - win for both NJT and the Casinos.

And no, NJT didn't lease any P32-ACDM's. There aren't enough of those to go around now either at Metro North or Amtrak, so no one is leasing any. NJT on the other hand did buy 4 Amtrak P40's for this service.

They'll run the trains with a P40 on one end and most likely an ALP-36 on the other end.


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## jis

AlanB said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder why they are trying this, and all that. Anyway, I heard NJT leased a few P32ACDMs
> 
> 
> 
> They're trying this because finally the casinos are willing to help fund the service, and done right it could be a win - win for both NJT and the Casinos.
> 
> And no, NJT didn't lease any P32-ACDM's. There aren't enough of those to go around now either at Metro North or Amtrak, so no one is leasing any. NJT on the other hand did buy 4 Amtrak P40's for this service.
> 
> They'll run the trains with a P40 on one end and most likely an ALP-36 on the other end.
Click to expand...

ALP-46 not ALP-36

I don't expect this to start until 2009 since the 6 cars for this service are near the tail end of the delivery sequence, and those cars have completely different furnishing.

BTW NJT just placed an order today for 125mph capable 27 ALP-46a's with IGBT propulsion system, with an option to acquire 33 more, When they arrive, they will be the most powerful and most advanced electric motors in the US.


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## aaron

just extend the northjersey coastline and have it connect with the future mom line


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## jis

aaron said:


> just extend the northjersey coastline and have it connect with the future mom line


Open up a map and see where the North Jersey Coast Line lands up if you just extend it from Bay Head .... hint ... it is represented by blue color on the map beyond Seaside Park  . There used to be a railroad (PRR) running upto Seaside Park and then it turned west and crossed Barnegate Bay on a trestle which AFAICT does not exist any more. Bay Head to Seaside Park much of the ROW is Rt. 35 I believe. This line used to connect to CNJ at Tom's River and and Whiting (on the Blue Comet route to ACY). But at present there isn't even a vague sign of the ROW in many places.

One could connect the NJCL from Red Bank to the MOM line (indeed that is one of the alternatives being studied in the DEIS.

The MOM line such as is planned ends at Lakehurst and there are miles of abandoned and torn up tracks between Lakehurst and Winslow Jct. where the old CNJ main connected to the Atlantic City Line. No one has the stomach to come up with the money to restore that line for 9 to 12 trains a week. And it will actually be slower than running down the NEC to Shore interlocking and then onto ACY.

Additional info on the ACY service.....

The Casinos and NJT are now negotiating how the interiors for the Casino owned multi-levels are going to be furnished. Rumor has it they will have 2-1 seating with leather seats and facilities for food service. The train will at most be three cars in length with an ALP-44 or 46 at one and and one of the newly acquired P40s at the other end. Given the heavy demand for ALP46s for day to day service using long multi-level trains up north, my suspicion is that this train will see an ALP-44 more often than an ALP-46. Since the Casinos have not acquired any cab cars the train will need a locomotive at each end anyway.

If they are run on the middle tracks (2 and 3 on the NEC), it will be a trick keeping these 100mph trains out of the way of the Amtrak Regional and Acelas . My suspicion is that they will find some slots to run them on the outer tracks (1 and 4) most of the way, perhaps using the middle tracks to occasionally overtake a SEPTA or NJT local.

BTW, last weekend I passed by Frankford Jct./Shore interlocking and it looks like that the reversing siding (that was used by Amtrak when they ran a New York to Atlantic City service) is still there and it is in the process of being fixed up a bit. Amtrak actually changed locomotives at this siding. NJT will simply reverse ends and make sure that the diesel is actually on the way to Atlantic City.


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## Acela150

From my understanding the NYC to AC trains will run on weekends only. All trains will turn at Shore interlocking 10 minutes north of 30th street station. The only reason NJT is running the P40's is because the new NJT diesels don't fit through the hudson river tunnels but the P40's do. Amtrak Leased 4 P40's for the service. Amtrak no longer uses the P40's but leases them to Metro-North, NJT, and Conndot. Amtrak lists the P40's as "Stored as Dead". It's a shame they don't use them any more seeing that they could get another 10-15 years out of them. They only ran for 10 years for Amtrak. Some P42's are 10 years old and Amtrak still runs them, so what in god's name are they thinking.


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## AlanB

Acela150 said:


> From my understanding the NYC to AC trains will run on weekends only. All trains will turn at Shore interlocking 10 minutes north of 30th street station. The only reason NJT is running the P40's is because the new NJT diesels don't fit through the hudson river tunnels but the P40's do. Amtrak Leased 4 P40's for the service. Amtrak no longer uses the P40's but leases them to Metro-North, NJT, and Conndot. Amtrak lists the P40's as "Stored as Dead". It's a shame they don't use them any more seeing that they could get another 10-15 years out of them. They only ran for 10 years for Amtrak. Some P42's are 10 years old and Amtrak still runs them, so what in god's name are they thinking.


NJT didn't lease the P40's, they brought them from Amtrak and are currently repainting them in NJT colors. May already be done by now, I'm not sure.

Next, MN did not lease any P40's. ConnDot did and IIRC, some are assigned to Shorline East duties, the rest are assigned to Metro North duties, since ConnDot is required to provide MN with a certain amount of equipment as part of the agreement that sees a NY transit agency (MetroNorth) operating into the State of Connecticut.

Finally while it is a shame, the simple reality is that Amtrak doesn't need them. When Amtrak made the second purchase of P42's, they were having a shortage of diesel power and the desperately needed the extra engines. When David Gunn killed the money loosing, train delaying Express Trak service, Amtrak no longer needed as many diesels per train. That made the still relatively new P40's unecessary. With a choice of mothballing some of the newer P42's or the slightly older P40's, Amtrak made the correct choice to mothball the P40's. The P40's were delivered in 1993, whereas the first order of P42's was delivered in 1996 & 1997.


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## AmtrakCrescent20

But Amtrak is still running 10+ P-32BWH locomotives which were built somewhere around 1990 IIRC. These are older than the P40s, and are less suited to passenger service being modified freight locomotives. Yet, while the P40s gather dust in the Bear shops, these older locomotives continue to run, often pulling actual Amtrak trains rather than performing their intended duty as switchers. It seems like it would make much more sense to retire or sell the P-32's to a freight railroad, and bring an equivalent amount of P40s out of storage.


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## AlanB

AmtrakCrescent20 said:


> But Amtrak is still running 10+ P-32BWH locomotives which were built somewhere around 1990 IIRC. These are older than the P40s, and are less suited to passenger service being modified freight locomotives. Yet, while the P40s gather dust in the Bear shops, these older locomotives continue to run, often pulling actual Amtrak trains rather than performing their intended duty as switchers. It seems like it would make much more sense to retire or sell the P-32's to a freight railroad, and bring an equivalent amount of P40s out of storage.


The problem with that is what you noted in your post, the P32's are doing switching duty most of the time, while being thrown into revenue service on occasion when a problem crops up. The P40 is not suited for switching ops, and therefore is less valuable to Amtrak under the current circumstances.

By the way, the P32-8's were built in 1991, so they are only 2 years older than the P40's.


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## Guest_MetsFan_*

aaron said:


> just extend the northjersey coastline and have it connect with the future mom line



There is a way for a person to get there without going into philadelphia. It involves the RiverLINE, and you take it from trenton to camden, then change trains at camden. As far as a one seat ride, i am pretty sure NJT uses leased amtrak diesels on the ACL, though i could be totally wrong. I do know that as the new PL42AC loco's are put into service there will be older diesels available for this run, plus you could always have a double head train one diesel one electric if needed.

- Andy


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## AlanB

Guest_MetsFan_* said:


> aaron said:
> 
> 
> 
> just extend the northjersey coastline and have it connect with the future mom line
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a way for a person to get there without going into philadelphia. It involves the RiverLINE, and you take it from trenton to camden, then change trains at camden. As far as a one seat ride, i am pretty sure NJT uses leased amtrak diesels on the ACL, though i could be totally wrong. I do know that as the new PL42AC loco's are put into service there will be older diesels available for this run, plus you could always have a double head train one diesel one electric if needed.
> 
> - Andy
Click to expand...

NJT didn't lease any diesels from Amtrak, they brought 4 P40's from Amtrak and now own them outright. Those units are going to be used on the gamblers express, once it starts running. NJT will put an ALP-46 on one end of the consist for the run on the corridor and a P40 on the other end for the run out the AC line.

And once the gamblers express starts running, that will be a one seat ride that technically doesn't make it into Philly.


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## Green Maned Lion

The only US diesels currently operating that can even fit into Penn station are the LIRRs DM30, the General Electric Genesis series, and the ancient streamliners, such as the FL-9 (I assume they still operate!). The other diesels would be beheaded for entering the tunnels- literally. The DM30 and the GE Genesis model P32AC-DM are the only ones that can actually pull trains in NYP. The other GE Genesis models can deadhead into Penn, as, technically, could old EMD F and E carbodies, as well as, I assume, various other carbody streamliners. F40s, F59PH and PHis, MP36s, GPs, PL42s, GE Dash, and a variety of other common locos simply can't fit- they are too tall.


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## conductorone

Acela150 said:


> From my understanding the NYC to AC trains will run on weekends only. All trains will turn at Shore interlocking 10 minutes north of 30th street station. The only reason NJT is running the P40's is because the new NJT diesels don't fit through the hudson river tunnels but the P40's do. Amtrak Leased 4 P40's for the service. Amtrak no longer uses the P40's but leases them to Metro-North, NJT, and Conndot. Amtrak lists the P40's as "Stored as Dead". It's a shame they don't use them any more seeing that they could get another 10-15 years out of them. They only ran for 10 years for Amtrak. Some P42's are 10 years old and Amtrak still runs them, so what in god's name are they thinking.


"Turn at shore tower? Make a right? a left??


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## AlanB

conductorone said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From my understanding the NYC to AC trains will run on weekends only. All trains will turn at Shore interlocking 10 minutes north of 30th street station. The only reason NJT is running the P40's is because the new NJT diesels don't fit through the hudson river tunnels but the P40's do. Amtrak Leased 4 P40's for the service. Amtrak no longer uses the P40's but leases them to Metro-North, NJT, and Conndot. Amtrak lists the P40's as "Stored as Dead". It's a shame they don't use them any more seeing that they could get another 10-15 years out of them. They only ran for 10 years for Amtrak. Some P42's are 10 years old and Amtrak still runs them, so what in god's name are they thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> "Turn at shore tower? Make a right? a left??
Click to expand...

Well technically it would be left turn when heading RR west on the NEC, except that there is no switch or track that would allow the train to make that left. Therefore they will proceed past the interlocking and stop on a side track. Then the engineer will need to changes ends and in effect drive in the other direction to go down the AC line. That of course means that everyone who was facing forward for the run down the NEC, will now find themselves facing backwards for the run to AC.


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