# ONR



## OBS

Due to the recent article in PTJ regarding possible discontinuance of these train services, My family has expressed an interest in possibly riding this fall. Does anyone have RECENT experience with riding? I'm looking for amenities available other than the typical coach. IE is there any dome service still, and what exactly is situation for dining/lounge services. Exploring going all the way to Moosenee (sp)...

TIA


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## guest

My wife and I rode both the Northlander and the Polar Bear Express in 2010. The former uses rebuilt GO Transit single level cars from the 1960s. The coaches are configured long distance style with low density /generous pitch seating. They are clean and comfortable, but rough riding due to their light weight. The train carries a café lounge car with a better selection of pre-packaged food than either Amtrak cafes or VIA trolleys, including at least a couple of full meal selections. The lounge also is equipped to show videos.

The Polar Bear Express operates with similar equipment throughout the year, except that the coaches may include ex-CNR smooth sided cars from the 1950s. From late June to the end of August the train carries additional cars for the tourist season, and includes a full length dome, two dining cars and an entertainment car. Breakfast in the diner was very good, and the dinner was OK but not outstanding. The choices included roast beef, chicken breast and fish.

As far as I know the summer amenities on the Polar Bear Express have not changed as a result of the announced scale of ONTC.

The Polar Bear Express is a remote service and the majority of its quite extensive local traffic is aboriginal (Cree first nation, i.e. Canadian terminology for Native American). The equipment looks well used, to put it mildly, but generally clean and adequately maintained. Since Moosonne is not accessible by road, the train provides a car ferry service.

The heyday of excursion traffic to Moosonee was several decades ago, though there was still quite a bit of tourist traffic on the train two years ago. But at least half of the passengers were locals on our July trip.

Moosonne itself is an authentic frontier town. Apart from a native craft shop in the basement of a local church, there are few concessions to the tourist traffic. The main street has a Northern store (the name of the former Hudson's Bay Company trading posts), which sells just about everything at prices that are considerably higher than in the south. You can take a canoe ferry to Moose Factory, which is on an island in the middle of the Moose River, and is a Cree reserve. Moose factory is the name of the former Hudson’s Bay Company trading post, dating from the 18th century and now restored as a museum. There is also a hospital there, a former TB sanitarium, now the regional health centre for the James Bay area. The first nation people run a good Eco Lodge on the shore of the river, but being on an Indian reserve the dining room is dry. You can take an excursion by canoe nine miles downstream to the mouth of Moose River and see the expanse of James Bay/Hudson Bay.

Regarding the future of the trains themselves, the Ontario Government announced it plans to privatize the ONTC in its budget this spring. The announcement anticipated that the Northlander would be discontinued once the railway was sold, while the parallel bus service was to be beefed up by the as-yet-to-be-determined private operator. The announcement also stated that the Polar Bear Express would continue as a remote service.

We shall see what transpires. It is by no means clear how attractive the ONR Rail assets would be, and bus services are being discontinued throughout Canada. Currently there are four daily ON busses form Toronto to Cochrane as compared to one daily train.

Finally, the ONR runs a small hotel called the Station Inn at Cochrane. This is the most convenient place to stay for the overnight stopover, but unit fills up quickly in summer. There are a number of other motels on the Trans Canada Highway a couple of miles taxi ride away from he ONR dept.


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## NS VIA Fan

Here's a couple of shots of the Northlander. It's south of North Bay at Huntsville and running on CN.

(Note: VIA has no involvement in the operation of the Northlander)


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## OBS

Thanks, all, for the helpful info/pictures.


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## Guest

Further to my previous message, there have been a couple of videos of the summer 2012 edition of the Polar Bear Express on U Tube. The dome car and the entertainment car (a former CN/VIA café lounger) are running the traditional dining cars are missing. Instead there appears to be an ex-GO café lounge of the type used on the Northlander. Therefore it appears that sit down meal service is not available this year. The consists are also shorter than in the past.

Compared to the past practice, the website is minimalist with respect to promotion for the Polar Bear. Previously there was an attractive PDF brochure available to download listing several package tour deals. This year the only reference to the summer amenities on the train is buried in a link entitled “Group Travel”. It does mention a dining car, but that does not necessarily imply full meal service, since the ONR website has regularly referred to the café lounge on the Northlander as a “dining car”.


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## OBS

Guest said:


> Further to my previous message, there have been a couple of videos of the summer 2012 edition of the Polar Bear Express on U Tube. The dome car and the entertainment car (a former CN/VIA café lounger) are running the traditional dining cars are missing. Instead there appears to be an ex-GO café lounge of the type used on the Northlander. Therefore it appears that sit down meal service is not available this year. The consists are also shorter than in the past.
> 
> Compared to the past practice, the website is minimalist with respect to promotion for the Polar Bear. Previously there was an attractive PDF brochure available to download listing several package tour deals. This year the only reference to the summer amenities on the train is buried in a link entitled "Group Travel". It does mention a dining car, but that does not necessarily imply full meal service, since the ONR website has regularly referred to the café lounge on the Northlander as a "dining car".


Thanks again; When I had originally looked at website a couple weeks ago, I noticed an apparent lack of info regarding services...


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## Just-Thinking-51

The Northlander is to end on 28 Sept 2012. Get your last ride, and pictures while you can.


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## OBS

Saw that info. Have trip planned for last week of this month.


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## Anderson

Ah, crap. Well, let's see if I can somehow jam a trip in.

Yes, this is one of the very few instances where I will seriously consider flying somewhere.

Edit: Alright, the one time I can make it up is going to be the class after the first midterm. This is a _really_ tough call, but my gut says that I'll regret missing out on a route more than I will regret missing a class.


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## Anthony

I did the Toronto-Cochrane round trip last weekend. Cool scenery, long ride, and the best bet for dinner in Cochrane was a decent Chinese place down the street. The train was a little bit late, and being Sunday evening, other places (including the restaurant in the station) were closed. The Station Inn was adequate and convenient, as mentioned, though a little expensive for what you get. There's a Best Western across the street that was even more expensive, but just as convenient.


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## johnny.menhennet

I hate that my 16th birthday is to be the death of a passenger service, but good look to all who will and hope to make the trip in this train's final weeks.


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## OBS

Anthony said:


> I did the Toronto-Cochrane round trip last weekend. Cool scenery, long ride, and the best bet for dinner in Cochrane was a decent Chinese place down the street. The train was a little bit late, and being Sunday evening, other places (including the restaurant in the station) were closed. The Station Inn was adequate and convenient, as mentioned, though a little expensive for what you get. There's a Best Western across the street that was even more expensive, but just as convenient.


Anthony, thanks for the info...


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## OBS

johnny.menhennet said:


> I hate that my 16th birthday is to be the death of a passenger service, but good look to all who will and hope to make the trip in this train's final weeks.


Johnny, I'll be sure to drink a toast to your Bday from Canada...


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## Swadian Hardcore

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The Northlander is to end on 28 Sept 2012. Get your last ride, and pictures while you can.


Oh, no! More passengers trains getting discontinued! What will happen to the equipment?

Here's an interior shot, looks decently comfortable:


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## AlanB

No word on the disposition of the equipment to my knowledge.


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## Anthony

Some cars have that red decor, and others are blue/grey. The seat cushions were a bit tired and not well fastened to the chair, and the cushion material kind of gave out after many hours of sitting. One can go sit in the cafe or choose a different seat if desired, I suppose.



Swadian Hardcore said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Northlander is to end on 28 Sept 2012. Get your last ride, and pictures while you can.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, no! More passengers trains getting discontinued! What will happen to the equipment?
> 
> Here's an interior shot, looks decently comfortable:
Click to expand...


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## Just-Thinking-51

Anthony said:


> Some cars have that red decor, and others are blue/grey. The seat cushions were a bit tired and not well fastened to the chair, and the cushion material kind of gave out after many hours of sitting. One can go sit in the cafe or choose a different seat if desired, I suppose.


Ontario's government in 2011 gave the ONR 10 million to refurbish cars for the Polar Bear Express. However in March 2012 it announced plan to dispose of the Northland - citing an unsustainable business model with annual funding up from $28 million in the early 2000s to $103 million in 2012.

Source: Passenger Train Journal Issue 251

I do wonder how much profit the Ontario provincial government make on there highway and roads.


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Northlander is to end on 28 Sept 2012. Get your last ride, and pictures while you can.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, no! More passengers trains getting discontinued! What will happen to the equipment?
> 
> Here's an interior shot, looks decently comfortable:
Click to expand...

This is a former VIA "Day-Niter" Coach used on the Polar Bear Express and not regurally used on the Northlander. The Northlander uses rebuilt former GO Transit single-level commuter cars (see reply #3 above for photo)

.........And AFAIK the Polar Bear will continue to operate so the "Day-Niter" coaches probably won't be disposed off unless they are planning an equipment swap with the soon to be available Northlander fleet.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Is this the interior of the Northlander? http://www.flickr.co...N05/7174112826/


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## NS VIA Fan

Swadian Hardcore said:


> Is this the interior of the Northlander? http://www.flickr.co...N05/7174112826/


Yes.......that's the interior of a Northlander coach.


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## Swadian Hardcore

NS VIA Fan said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the interior of the Northlander? http://www.flickr.co...N05/7174112826/
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......that's the interior of a Northlander coach.
Click to expand...

OK, well, they still look pretty comfortable, at least compared to a commuter coach.


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## Paul L

I live in Moosonee and take the Polar Bear Express frequently.

Just a few updates.

This summer the amenities on the train were reduced, no children's program, no sit down dining car, second snack car only open three days per week and no entertainment car. The dome car is still carried but there nothing on the lower level.

The Cree Village Ecolodge in Moose Factory is not on reserve and the reserve where it is located is not a dry one (Indian reserves in Canada can vote on alcohol availability.


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## Gord

Swadian Hardcore said:


> NS VIA Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the interior of the Northlander? http://www.flickr.co...N05/7174112826/
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.......that's the interior of a Northlander coach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK, well, they still look pretty comfortable, at least compared to a commuter coach.
Click to expand...

They were indeed commuter coaches made for GO Transit by Hawker Siddeley (now Bombardier) in Thunder Bay. ONR upgraded them, not sure if the ride imporoved but in GO service they were not good riding. Some of these also went to Montreal as commuter coaches and were recently retired.

Tomorrow is the last day for the Northlander. The service to this part of Ontario has been devastated over the past 40 years by the Feds, now the Province is finishing it off. I'll remember who was responsible, next election.

Gord


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## Swadian Hardcore

The Northlander does not run anymore. It has now been discountinued. May this great train rest in peace.


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## CHamilton

Study says decision to discontinue Northlander was not warranted; supporters begin campaign to reverse the decision. From Facebook.



> Supporters of The Northlander, ONR, ONTC, and the Provision of Better Passenger and Freight Rail Service in Northern Ontario.
> 
> As you are likely aware, the final report of the ONR-ONTC Research Task Force chaired by Dr. Barry Wellar is now posted on various websites, including Transport Action Ontario, Transport Action Canada, and Wellar Consulting Inc.
> ...
> [Excerpt from of sample letter to officials]
> I have read the reports prepared by Professor Barry Wellar regarding the decisions to terminate The Northlander, and to divest the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission. As you may be aware, all the reports prepared by Dr. Wellar on this topic are posted on the Transport Action Ontario, Transport Action Canada, and the Wellar Consulting Inc. websites (Transport Action Ontario, Transport Action Canada, and Wellar Consulting Inc. ).
> 
> In the final report Dr. Wellar concludes that there was no substantive basis for the decision to terminate The Northlander, or the decision to divest the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission and, as a result, both decisions should be rescinded immediately.
> ...
> 
> LINKS TO DR. WELLAR'S REPORTS
> Wellar Consulting Inc.
> http://www.wellar.ca/wellarconsulting/home.html
> Transport Action Canada
> http://www.transport-action.ca/en/index.html
> ONR-ONTC Research Task Force
> http://www.transport-action.ca/ontario/


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## Swadian Hardcore

You think it's gonna happen? Not in the Canada's current situation! They're cutting trains left and right.


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## Nathanael

Ontario's more likely to restore trains than the national government is. Harper's government of Canada is plainly openly hostile to train service; VIA's decision to shut down trains which are full of passengers, while refusing to disclose ridership numbers, makes this abundantly clear. Until Harper is removed from office, I think the only expansions of train service in Canada will come in and near metro areas, driven by the municipal governments.

The Ontario government is merely uninterested in train service -- which unfortunately means train restoration is unlikely. If it does happen, replacing the recently-cut VIA trains with GO trains will be a higher priority for the Ontario government than restoring the Northland service. Even this will only happen if the municipalities push for it.


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## Twin Star Rocket

ONR was part of a grand circle trip I made in July 1985. Leg 1: Amtrak from Chicago to Toronto. Leg 2: ONR's NORTHLANDER from Toronto to Porquis (Cochrane). Leg 3: Cochrane to Moosonee and back. Leg 4: VIA's NORTHLAND plus connecting bus from Cochrane to Kapuskasing to Hearst. Leg 4: Algoma Central to Sault Ste. Marie, ON. Leg 5: Soo Line mixed train from Sault Ste. Marie, Mich to Gladstone. Leg 5: Bus from Gladstone to Milwaukee and finally Leg 6: Amtrak from Milwaukee to Chicago.

Great trip one cannot do today! NORTHLANDER was former TEE equipment from Europe.


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## Swadian Hardcore

Soo Line ran mixed trains? Could you explain a bit more about that?

In Ontario, if VIA keeps cutting trains, we could see GO trains run very far distances and get upgraded cars.


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## Twin Star Rocket

Up until the mid to late 1980s, one could travel in the caboose of a Soo Line freight train on a few routes in Wisconsin and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. These were holdovers from the days of regular passenger service on the Soo Line.

The Georgia Railroad had a similar service using actual coaches.


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## DET63

Notice to ONTC passengers



> Please note that the Northlander passenger train is no longer in service.
> Every community served by the Northlander train will continue to be serviced by ONTC motor coach service. Please check Schedule and Fares and Station Locations for more information.
> 
> Northlander tickets are transferable and can be used on the bus prior to the expiry date. You can also receive a refund for your unused valid, Northlander ticket at an ONTC agency or station.
> 
> All NLDR tickets are valid for use on the bus prior to expiry date. Tickets must have the same origin and destination.


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## CHamilton

It sounds like the new Ontario government may be backing off from selling Ontario Northland, but no decisions have been made.



> Ontario Minister talks Northern issuesTIMMINS - As Minister of Northern Development and Mines, Michael Gravelle is arguably the most important link to Queen’s Park for Northerners.
> ...
> The minister discussed at length provincial issues specific to the region.
> 
> He admitted one of the biggest bones of contention in the Northeast is the divestiture of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission.
> 
> “In the 2012 budget the decision was made,” Gravelle said. “There certainly was some very clear fiscal challenges and there was a decision made at that time, obviously in terms of the budget that indeed the divestment of the ONTC was the direction the government needed to go in. It was certainly a very tough decision at the time and one that (drew) a very strong reaction from Northern Ontario.”
> 
> Since that time, there has been a change in the premiership, with Kathleen Wynne replacing Dalton McGuinty. The provincial government has somewhat softened its response on the ONTC sell-off, but has not yet made any concrete promises.
> 
> “Premier Wynne is a different premier,” Gravelle said. “Working her way through Northern Ontario during the leadership campaign, she certainly heard from a lot of people about it. We spoke about the fact that we needed to work with municipal leaders, First Nations, industry, Metis Nations. We needed to have the kinds of discussion that could bring us to a way that we had a sustainable, efficient and effective Ontario Northland Transportation Commission.
> 
> “With the premier’s support, we formed the Ministerial Advisory Committee and it was something we felt was incredibly important. And it was welcomed by many of the Northern leaders as they felt they had not had an opportunity to have those kind of discussions.
> 
> “We’ve been looking at this very seriously. I came to the conclusion that divestment wasn’t the only option, that there are multiple options. And that’s the path that we’ve been going down.”
> ...
> “The reason why yesterday’s meeting was so effective and, what I would describe as one of the best ones, is we certainly had an extraordinary frank discussion about the financial realities of the ONTC,” he said. “There certainly are challenges from a fiscal point of view that everybody acknowledges. Everybody absolutely agrees that the status quo is not an option. But what we need to do is make decisions that are in the best interests of a transportation and telecommunications company that can actually operate in a sustainable way into the long-term future.
> 
> “So does that mean potential partnerships? Does that mean potential involvement with the private sector? Does it mean some divisions remaining in public hands? The answer is yes to all of those. And those are decisions that have not yet been made.”
> 
> He couldn’t pin down a specific time frame for making a decision on the ONTC’s future.
> 
> “We do have some more work to do,” Gravelle said. “There is an understandable feeling that we need to have some answers fairly soon.


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## Swadian Hardcore

The important thing is that once a train has been cut, it's very hard to bring it back. As long as they keep it running, then the train is safe for now. Even if Harper gets out of office, Canada probably still won't get the lost trains back. As I've said before, they only cut, cut and cut trains with no new services added or restored.

The only consolation for ONR's cut services is that they're replaced with excellent bus equipment.


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## yarrow

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The only consolation for ONR's cut services is that they're replaced with excellent bus equipment.


off topic, but what is the excellent bus equipment that is to console us for loss of the train?


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## Swadian Hardcore

yarrow said:


> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only consolation for ONR's cut services is that they're replaced with excellent bus equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> off topic, but what is the excellent bus equipment that is to console us for loss of the train?
Click to expand...

Probably won't console most of the people on the forum, since they're not bus fans, but those Ontario Northland D-units are some pretty d?&n good buses! The J and X units are not bad either. I sure hope they haven't retired the 103A3, but I think I'm out of luck. I've seen mighty trains replaced by terrible, falling apart buses before, this is at least not _as_ bad! Worse case scenario: Train Cut, No Replacement!

Won't go into detail about buses, I don't want to hijack another thread.


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## CHamilton

Most of Ontario Northland Transportation Commission to remain public




> The province plans to continue to operate the motor coach, Polar Bear Express, rail freight, and refurbishment services of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission as a government owned company....
> 
> It will spend more than $23 million over the next three years on the rest of the ONTC, pending budget approvals, to purchase new motor coaches for the bus line and to refurbish rail coaches for the Polar Bear Express.


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## railiner

Swadian Hardcore said:


> yarrow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Swadian Hardcore said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only consolation for ONR's cut services is that they're replaced with excellent bus equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> off topic, but what is the excellent bus equipment that is to console us for loss of the train?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Probably won't console most of the people on the forum, since they're not bus fans, but those Ontario Northland D-units are some pretty d?&n good buses! The J and X units are not bad either. I sure hope they haven't retired the 103A3, but I think I'm out of luck. I've seen mighty trains replaced by terrible, falling apart buses before, this is at least not _as_ bad! Worse case scenario: Train Cut, No Replacement!
> 
> Won't go into detail about buses, I don't want to hijack another thread.
Click to expand...

Back in the '70's, and 80's ONR used to run a thru overnite trip (with Gray Coach Lines), that they named "The Sleeper", between Toronto, North Bay, and Timmins. It utilized specially equipped "Slumber Lounge Coach" MC-8's, and later MC-9's, that offered very comfortable 'daynighter' type recliner's in a two-and-one seating configuration. IIRC, they had a few other amenities, like window curtains, pillows, blankets, bottled drinking water, etc.


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