# "The Dining Car Problem"



## jruff001 (May 24, 2021)

No, this is not meant to be yet another thread about how awful and unhealthy the Flexible Dining food is. There are already dozens of threads and hundreds - probably thousands? - of posts about that. Rather, this is meant to spark discussion about the economics of providing the good, old-fashioned "traditional dining" that so many here grieve about losing.

I came across this fascinating promotional document from 1950. Even way back when, railroads were struggling with providing dining car service, were concerned about how uneconomical that was and were trying to find the floor for passengers' tolerance. See the "Single Entree" and "Short Order" services on pages 12-13, which were being tried as potential answers to "the dining car problem" (PRR's words!) and the concern throughout the document about reducing waste and losses. But of course they were spinning cost-cutting efforts as leading to "better" meals and service for passengers.

The real meat (get it?) starts on page 16 with "The 'Why' of Dining Car Losses."

Better Meals and Service for You

How would YOU run a for-profit traditional dining car? Or, OTOH, justify continued taxpayer subsidies for that slab of animal being served to you as you cross Montana when current sleeping car fares and the Silver Star experiment would seem to suggest that most people aren't willing to pay nearly enough for it to make financial sense?


----------



## jis (May 24, 2021)

Maybe instead of navel gazing at the sorry path taken by passenger service in the US it is time to look at places that have managed to run the service successfully, and swallow our pride and ego, and try to emulate them. Emulating would include understanding how their costs and revenues are structured and seeing what is adaptable. I for one would like Amtrak to take a close look at DB's IC/EC operations and see what can be learned from them, and perhaps emulate them. Obsessing about for profit dining cars is a fool's errand and everyone knows it, and yet that is one thing that keeps generations of consultants kids through school and college. 

Maybe the Nightjet model has a lot to teach us at least for the one night trains.


----------



## jruff001 (May 24, 2021)

jis said:


> Maybe instead of navel gazing at the sorry path taken by passenger service in the US it is time to look at places that have managed to run the service successfully, and swallow our pride and ego, and try to emulate them. Emulating would include understanding how their costs and revenues are structured and seeing what is adaptable. I for one would like Amtrak to take a close look at DB's IC/EC operations and see what can be learned from them, and perhaps emulate them. Obsessing about for profit dining cars is a fool's errand and everyone knows it, and yet that is one thing that keeps generations of consultants kids through school and college.


I am not sure Germany would be a very useful comparison just because it is a small place geographically. Perhaps the biggest inefficiency identified by the PRR in the link was crew and equipment scheduling, largely because of the downtime that is inherent with long distance, overnight service. A short-distance network wouldn't have that issue to nearly the same degree. You can basically be open and serving from terminal to terminal. (Yes, you COULD do that all night, but not many people are going to be looking for a full meal at 0200.)

I'd be more curious about the economics of dining cars on the long-distance trains in Russia. That would seem to have challenges similar to the Amtrak model.


----------



## jis (May 24, 2021)

Russian LD trains usually have a large menu but only a small part of it is available on any given train. Also the Restaurant Car is not designed to serve everyone on the train but only those that want to pay for it. A vast majority of the riders of the train arrange to have their own food from wherever. In that sense they are similar to pre-90s situation in the US before Amtrak chose to include food in Sleeper fares.

India got rid of all Restaurant Cars except one on the Deccan Queen, around 1970 and replaced them with Pantry Car with at seat service. On some trains where food is not included in the ticket this is for those who wish to pay for the food, and on other trains where the ticket includes food it is for serving everyone on the train. In the latter they serve 4 meals a day to upto 1400 passengers, something that is hard to achieve with a Restaurant Car, unless there are multiple ones, which of course runs contrary to the policy of minimizing non revenue cars on a railroad where demand far outstrips capacity on all major routes.

Fortunately with a little infusion of additional rolling stock we in the US are unlikely to far outstrip capacity by demand, so in that sense the Diner may be safe, as it is unlikely to get overwhelmed into extinction.

As for economics of it, I doubt very much that Russia. Germany, India or China expect their food service to be separately profitable, as long as the train does relatively well, and even there, I doubt they expect each train to be individually profitable as long as the company meets the budgetary goals. This Mica thing is a peculiarly American and Floridian obsession if you will, and applies selectively to only those things that you wish to undermine.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 24, 2021)

jis said:


> I for one would like Amtrak to take a close look at DB's IC/EC operations and see what can be learned from them, and perhaps emulate them.



Basically, DB ICE meal service is basically the same thing as "flex dining" but with slightly better presentation. They reheat packaged foods and instead of serving the TV dinner to you with a few holes poked in the foil, they actually plate it for you. They are able to get fresh bread, and occasionally a few other things fresh. They also take a lot more thought and care into how they nuke the prepackaged things. They usually also have a soup of the day and a beer on tap of some kind.

The only thing really stopping Amtrak from going this route are updates on the rolling stock, staff training and logistics. On the LD trains, they could probably modify the kitchens and retrain some of the OBS to take care of meal preparation duties (which is little more than opening the bag, nuking it and plating it). 

Cafe car attendants already do a lot of this. Amtrak's DB cafe car attendant counterparts have a lot more room to prepare and store things because the don't have that long counter or open space in the serving portion of the car.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> How would YOU run a for-profit traditional dining car



I would start by encouraging more people to dine and upselling them on drinks, desserts, etc.

Encouraging sleeping car attendants to provide room service opens up more tables in the diner so that’s a win. 

There should also be an option for coach passengers to order food from the diner to be eaten at their seat or in the lounge car. 

That would be a start. 

Also hosting paid wine tastings each afternoon and try to sell bottles of the wine as well as souvenir wine glasses.


----------



## Sidney (May 24, 2021)

Great points. Unfortunately,they all make too much sense and Amtrak's lame management would never consider them. I thought we hit rock bottom under Anderson.


----------



## Anthony V (May 24, 2021)

We may have already found the solution to "the dining car problem" back in the 1990's. That is to run the dining car 24 hours a day, like they did on the Sunset Limited back then. During that experiment, the dining car on that train actually made money because they got more use out of an asset with high fixed costs by doing this, which increased revenue. This is because of the fact that the only way to lower the fixed costs of an asset is to get the most use out of it and because of the fact that when you do that, the increased amount of revenue will be more than the increased costs of more frequent use of the asset. This is for the same reason that passenger rail advocates like us push for increased frequencies of all Amtrak routes, because experience shows that ridership and revenue goes up faster than costs, while at the same time making better use of assets with high fixed costs, which in these cases are train stations, and dining cars, when you increase frequency or hours of service.


----------



## jruff001 (May 24, 2021)

Anthony V said:


> We may have already found the solution to "the dining car problem" back in the 1990's. That is to run the dining car 24 hours a day, like they did on the Sunset Limited back then. During that experiment, the dining car on that train actually made money because they got more use out of an asset with high fixed costs by doing this, which increased revenue.


I have seen this rumor before here. It makes zero sense; and do you have data to show it was actually profitable? I find that hard to believe. You probably can't even cover the additional crew costs from the handful of people who would want a meal in the middle of the night.

If it was so successful why did they end it?


----------



## jis (May 24, 2021)

Anthony V said:


> We may have already found the solution to "the dining car problem" back in the 1990's. That is to run the dining car 24 hours a day, like they did on the Sunset Limited back then. During that experiment, the dining car on that train actually made money because they got more use out of an asset with high fixed costs by doing this, which increased revenue.


Interestingly I have never seen any documentation from Amtrak about it making money. I have seen many repeated assertions from people outside Amtrak that it made money though. So who knows for sure?

Indeed I would actually like to see a credible documentation from something published by Amtrak that says it made money. People with a special axe to grind can claim whatever they wish and try to establish it as a fact by repeated assertion every chance they get.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2021)

24 hours wouldn’t have required additional crew before Simplified Dining kicked in. You would just schedule the crew appropriately.

I’m not sure why it’s hard to believe that a dining car being open more hours could make more money (or lose less as the case may be). Part of the goal of the Cross Country Cafe was to allow dining car food available all day to all passengers. (Not 24 hours but same schedule as the cafe - so like 6 am to midnight or whatever closing time is.).


----------



## jruff001 (May 24, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> 24 hours wouldn’t have required additional crew before Simplified Dining kicked in. You would just schedule the crew appropriately.
> 
> I’m not sure why it’s hard to believe that a dining car being open more hours could make more money (or lose less as the case may be).


So why did they stop doing it?


----------



## IndyLions (May 24, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> 24 hours wouldn’t have required additional crew before Simplified Dining kicked in. You would just schedule the crew appropriately.
> 
> I’m not sure why it’s hard to believe that a dining car being open more hours could make more money (or lose less as the case may be). Part of the goal of the Cross Country Cafe was to allow dining car food available all day to all passengers. (Not 24 hours but same schedule as the cafe - so like 6 am to midnight or whatever closing time is.).





jruff001 said:


> So why did they stop doing it?



I can see some employees rebelling against it. Nothing wrong with increased activity during working hours as long as there is appropriate downtime.


----------



## Trogdor (May 24, 2021)

jis said:


> Interestingly I have never seen any documentation from Amtrak about it making money. I have seen many repeated assertions from *people outside Amtrak* that it made money though. So who knows for sure?
> 
> Indeed I would actually see a credible documentation from something published by Amtrak that says it made money. People with a special axe to grind can claim whatever they wish and try to establish it as a fact by repeated assertion every chance they get.



I've seen repeated assertions from one person that it made money. That person didn't necessarily have the greatest of credibility, either.


----------



## jis (May 24, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> I've seen repeated assertions from one person that it made money. That person didn't necessarily have the greatest of credibility, either.


Indeed that is my problem with it exactly. The only person who has repeatedly asserted it has low credibility and others have said so either pointing to said person or appealing to your reasonablness about believing things that are apparently obvious to some taking them at their word about it.


----------



## MARC Rider (May 24, 2021)

Of course traditional dining cost more than the revenue it brings in. Back in the day, the railroads made the mistake of trying to emulate restaurant service at a grand hotel, but on wheels. In order to have that level of service, you have to hire a lot of people. You also have to have them on the job, even if there aren't any customers. While the dining car has a captive audience of customers, that audience is limited, and a good proportion of the passengers don't patronize the dining car and never will. However, the dining car crew has to be on hand, and be paid even if it's a slow period, and the train has few passengers and even fewer dining car patrons. The dining car itself needs to be maintained and operated on a continuous basis, and the railroad needs to purchase more dining cars than are strictly needed so that they can continue to offer dining service when dining cars need to be pulled for maintenance. The costs per diner are probably higher than that of a land-based restaurant, and there's a limit on the amount of revenue that it can yield; thus clever marketing schemes can only make minor effects around the edges.

Better get used to Flex style dining. It's the wave of the future. The only reason traditional dining is viable in land-based restaurants is because restaurant workers are poorly paid and work irregular hours. When this is no longer the case, expect a entrees at your neighborhood Denny's to start at $35 (in today's money.) Either that, or you're going to be ordering over your phone and picking up the meal when you arrive, like they do at Panera, and even Panera will cost more, because they have a pretty big kitchen crew, even with mostly pre-cooked stuff, as they have to individually heat and plate everything. Anyway, forget about special orders, the public will just have to learn to eat what's put in front of them.

Hopefully, even if some form of Flex dining continues, we can get Amtrak to improves the quality of the food offered and increase the variety a bit.


----------



## Palmland (May 24, 2021)

I believe the OBS personnel on the Canadian are cross trained to work as servers in the diner, SCA, or other jobs. I think assignments are managed by the Dining car steward. Better utilization of personnel might improve service and help control costs. I’m also surprised Amtrak hasn’t tried to promote beverages and snacks in the train, perhaps using airline style carts. That’s an easy revenue source. But perhaps union contracts wouldn’t permit this?


----------



## IndyLions (May 24, 2021)

I have two questions regarding the VIA Ocean style, East Coast catering option.

1. Could it be stocked strictly at the end points? Or would it require mid trip restocking? If they committed to using the VLII diners on all the east coast routes, it seems to me they would provide sufficient cold storage and prep equipment to last for an entire trip. What is the longest trip? The Cardinal? The Crescent?

2. Would it automatically preclude them from promoting the use of the Diner with Coach passengers? Seems to me they would want to stock a number of meals that’s pretty close to what they need, and eliminate the variability of coach passenger consumption.

Number two is the biggest argument against catered meals - and a big argument against Flex meals, in my opinion.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> I have two questions regarding the VIA Ocean style, East Coast catering option.
> 
> 1. Could it be stocked strictly at the end points? Or would it require mid trip restocking? If they committed to using the VLII diners on all the east coast routes, it seems to me they would provide sufficient cold storage and prep equipment to last for an entire trip. What is the longest trip? The Cardinal? The Crescent?
> 
> ...



VIA ocean’s diner require the same amount of crew that Amtrak’s “traditional dining” requires.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> So why did they stop doing it?



I have no clue. I believe it was only done as a test, similar to the at your seat coach meal which was also popular and good for the bottom line.


----------



## IndyLions (May 24, 2021)

Palmland said:


> ...I’m also surprised Amtrak hasn’t tried to promote beverages and snacks in the train, perhaps using airline style carts. That’s an easy revenue source. But perhaps union contracts wouldn’t permit this?



While they could always do a better job of promoting it on all routes including the NEC - café cars on long-distance trains are already heavily patronized. I haven’t been on a long distance train yet when there wasn’t frequent lines in the café car.

I’ve been on trains in Europe with cart service. I’m not a fan. It’s much easier to get up and get what you need when you need it, then wait for that one time during the trip when the cart comes by your seat.


----------



## IndyLions (May 24, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> VIA ocean’s diner require the same amount of crew that Amtrak’s “traditional dining” requires.


But it doesn’t require a chef - which seems to be the position that Amtrak is hell bent on eliminating in the east. Maybe because they don’t perform non food related tasks?


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2021)

IndyLions said:


> But it doesn’t require a chef - which seems to be the position that Amtrak is hell bent on eliminating in the east. Maybe because they don’t perform non food related tasks?



I don’t think that’s true. Amtrak wants to reduce all f&b personnel which is why the eagle & city are down to 1 solo LSA.


----------



## Mailliw (May 24, 2021)

I'd replace table service with counter service along the lines of fast-casual dining; sleeper passengers retain the option of room service. 



IndyLions said:


> I have two questions regarding the VIA Ocean style, East Coast catering option.
> 
> 1. Could it be stocked strictly at the end points? Or would it require mid trip restocking? If they committed to using the VLII diners on all the east coast routes, it seems to me they would provide sufficient cold storage and prep equipment to last for an entire trip. What is the longest trip? The Cardinal? The Crescent?
> 
> ...


Number 2 is easily fixed. As long as sleeper fare includes meals then it's a known factor how many meals to order, especially if you allow advance entree selection. Coach passengers can simply be given the option to pre-purchase a meal package. Stock say 110% of need to allow for stuff like last minute changes of mine or dropped plates; then at a certain when all the pre-purchased meals are served allow walk-ups to buy unserved meals for a discount. If meals are no longer to be included with sleeper fare then all classes get the option of pre-purchased meal packages.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 24, 2021)

Mailliw said:


> I'd replace table service with counter service along the lines of fast-casual dining; sleeper passengers retain the option of room service.



That’s very similar to the original cross country cafe service - also similar to the Bistro cars on the Cascades. Both worked very well imho.


----------



## jebr (May 24, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Better get used to Flex style dining. It's the wave of the future. The only reason traditional dining is viable in land-based restaurants is because restaurant workers are poorly paid and work irregular hours. When this is no longer the case, expect a entrees at your neighborhood Denny's to start at $35 (in today's money.) Either that, or you're going to be ordering over your phone and picking up the meal when you arrive, like they do at Panera, and even Panera will cost more, because they have a pretty big kitchen crew, even with mostly pre-cooked stuff, as they have to individually heat and plate everything. Anyway, forget about special orders, the public will just have to learn to eat what's put in front of them.



There's a number of cities that pay a $10-$15 wage (with no tip credit for wait staff, so wait staff has to be paid that full $10-$15/hr.) and prices at sit-down restaurants have not shot up dramatically. Here in MSP, where minimum wage is in the $11-$14 range in most places, pricing is not substantially different than elsewhere. Yes, the $6.99 special at Denny's is $8.99 instead, and the 2 for $20 at Applebee's is now 2 for $22, but prices haven't tripled! The biggest reason that Amtrak's labor costs are higher is because there's a bunch of factors that Amtrak has to mitigate with higher wages - they can't really employ part-time employees such as students or people wanting to make a bit of extra money because they need to be away from home for days at a time, and you're now also having to give up your social and home life even more than if you were a full-time employee at a land-based restaurant (where you at least generally get to go home every night.) Thus, Amtrak has to pay a fair amount more to attract quality candidates - there's not a lot of people who find being away from home for days at a time, at least long-term, to be a plus. _That's_ one of the main reason why Amtrak has such a difficult time profitably running a diner, and it's somewhat unique to Amtrak. The other side of the equation is that there's a very finite number of people that can be served, and that capacity is quite a bit lower than many restaurants.



IndyLions said:


> But it doesn’t require a chef - which seems to be the position that Amtrak is hell bent on eliminating in the east. Maybe because they don’t perform non food related tasks?



This is what baffles me the most with Amtrak's current food service offerings - having a chef on board with quality ingredients would make the experience a lot better and deliver quality food that can be customized to people's desires (at least when implemented properly.) The chef also would likely offset some of their cost simply by being able to use ingredients to prep the meal on-site, instead of needing to purchase pre-made meals from a vendor. This seems especially useful on the longer trains where trying to keep a quality meal fresh for three days with minimal restocking points is difficult if they have to be basically "heat-and-eat" once on board.


----------



## jiml (May 24, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> VIA ocean’s diner require the same amount of crew that Amtrak’s “traditional dining” requires.


Correct. My most recent train trip was on the Ocean pre-Covid discontinuance. There was one "kitchen" staff involved in preparation and plating with 2 wait-staff eastbound and 3 westbound. On the eastbound only one end of the diner seating was used for both coach and sleeper passengers, but on the westbound there was clear delineation with coach and one server on one end of the diner and sleeper and two servers on the other. (There is a serving area for staff in the middle of the diner.) I had the the opportunity to talk to the "prep" person (same in both directions) and complimented her on her work. There is a difference between plating food and making it look like fine dining. She did the latter.


----------



## lordsigma (May 25, 2021)

A lot of good the great dining on the VIA Ocean is doing with the train not running. I understand the point of it being mentioned here - as a dining model that we wish Amtrak would consider instead of dining flexibly (and the argument is probably valid it seems the Ocean took a pretty good approach) - but just wanted to point out the irony of praising VIA rail in comparison to Amtrak when the train has been totally discontinued with no restoration plan in sight....

I think dining improvements start with the presentation. Start with a decent presentation and plating the food. Even reheated pre-prepared food comes off a lot better when you take the time to least make it look like you care. Next develop consistency with how your staff is heating the meals. The same meal can be decent or slop if not reheated properly. Once you've got those two figured out then assess where you are - if that still doesn't cut it then look at your sourcing and see if better products are available.


----------



## dlagrua (May 25, 2021)

In this history of passenger rail the dining car was not there to make money but to accommodate the passengers and entice them to choose one route over another. Today there is no competition for LD passenger rail but if there is any plan to boost LD ridership; Amtrak needs to consider that a key selling point is providing fresh food and some amenities for the sleeper passengers. 
Amtrak claims that the LD routes do not make money but I say that they do. The true operating costs must be on those routes alone and by not adding in the fixed costs on the NEC. As it now stands under Amtraks accounting system, even the Western LD routes assume part of the cost for the NEC all along its route for labor, track and station maintenance costs.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

MARC Rider said:


> Of course traditional dining cost more than the revenue it brings in. Back in the day, the railroads made the mistake of trying to emulate restaurant service at a grand hotel, but on wheels.



Many hotel restaurants also lose money. 

Amtrak is like that Econo Lodge in New York City that charges way too much but since every other hotel is taken you book it anyway.


----------



## Steve4031 (May 25, 2021)

I agree with Jishnu. People in the United States need to think outside the box. We have this idea that we are different and exceptional. This leads to a s not learning from other countries. India runs a world class train system as does Russia and Germany. We can learn from all of them.


----------



## jiml (May 25, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> A lot of good the great dining on the VIA Ocean is doing with the train not running. I understand the point of it being mentioned here - as a dining model that we wish Amtrak would consider instead of dining flexibly (and the argument is probably valid it seems the Ocean took a pretty good approach) - but just wanted to point out the irony of praising VIA rail in comparison to Amtrak when the train has been totally discontinued with no restoration plan in sight....
> 
> I think dining improvements start with the presentation. Start with a decent presentation and plating the food. Even reheated pre-prepared food comes off a lot better when you take the time to least make it look like you care. Next develop consistency with how your staff is heating the meals. The same meal can be decent or slop if not reheated properly. Once you've got those two figured out then assess where you are - if that still doesn't cut it then look at your sourcing and see if better products are available.


I think everyone is aware that the Ocean is suspended, and although it has been suggested as a model for single-night Amtrak trips in other threads, the content in this thread was someone asking a question, a partial answer to that question regarding staffing and firsthand support (including mine) for that answer. However, it is an example of how to serve what is essentially a flex meal. 

An argument could be made that Amtrak's current (and continuing Eastern) dining could easily be resolved with an additional staff member in the dining car and the separation of the prep and serve functions. Having one person doing all that work is going to lead to inconsistency in every aspect from heating to serving to attitude. The food choices seem to have more to do with convenience (e.g. heating in the service container) and ease of clean-up, rather than the actual cost of food.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jiml said:


> An argument could be made that Amtrak's current (and continuing Eastern) dining could easily be resolved with an additional staff member in the dining car and the separation of the prep and serve functions.



From the very beginning I said Amtrak should keep the chef position and either 1 LSA or 1 Server. Keep the traditional diner menu but drop the table service.

(CCC Cars would have an LSA anyways. The other trains could use just a server if they dropped the alcahol sales I think.)


----------



## Nick Farr (May 25, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> I think dining improvements start with the presentation. Start with a decent presentation and plating the food. Even reheated pre-prepared food comes off a lot better when you take the time to least make it look like you care. Next develop consistency with how your staff is heating the meals. The same meal can be decent or slop if not reheated properly. Once you've got those two figured out then assess where you are - if that still doesn't cut it then look at your sourcing and see if better products are available.



Basically: This is it, entirely. This is everything I've been arguing for onboard dining.

Anything beyond a drive for consistency given Amtrak's current labor setup is unrealistic. We cannot even get the SCAs to be consistent about their service, how do we expect to hire Chefs to prepare fresh meals consistently?

Once the OBS are providing consistently good service, we can start to move on to dreams like freshly prepared meals.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 25, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> Amtrak claims that the LD routes do not make money but I say that they do.



With the exception of the Auto Train, all the LD routes do not even come close to profitability by any accounting measure, period, end of story. They are all heavily taxpayer and lightly host rail subsidized.

*Profitability is not and has never been the point of LD trains in the Amtrak era.*

The primary purpose for the vast taxpayer subsidization of LD trains is to provide basic essential service to rural communities.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> From the very beginning I said Amtrak should keep the chef position and either 1 LSA or 1 Server. Keep the traditional diner menu but drop the table service.



Disagree. On all the European services, the Cafe Car staff are all trained to do all the things. Add in the SCAs, and you can have a fully staffed Dining Car with less staff than you have now.


----------



## Cal (May 25, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> Amtrak claims that the LD routes do not make money but I say that they do. The true operating costs must be on those routes alone and by not adding in the fixed costs on the NEC. As it now stands under Amtraks accounting system, even the Western LD routes assume part of the cost for the NEC all along its route for labor, track and station maintenance costs.


I would love to know the true validity of this statement. I feel that they do lose money, but come a lot closer to breaking even than they say.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 25, 2021)

Cal said:


> I would love to know the true validity of this statement. I feel that they do lose money, but come a lot closer to breaking even than they say.



I have also read and heard in various places that the LD trains are not as unprofitable as popular train ideology says.
The overhead cost of the NEC tracks is gargantuan, and whatever profit the NEC makes get eaten away by track maintenance. The LD routes don't pay for tracks, and sleeper prices do provide a nice blanket of extra cash.
I really do wish I could look at some numbers to find the actual facts.

I've ridden and tried food offerings on DB, FS, Trenitalia, SNCF, SBB and OBB. To be honest, I didn't like any of it. I never found Amtrak flex dining to be that far off from what was offered in Europe on comparably priced trains (we have to exclude all luxury routes). That said, the European offerings may be healthier to a degree.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 25, 2021)

Cal said:


> I would love to know the true validity of this statement. I feel that they do lose money, but come a lot closer to breaking even than they say.



Not even. In FY19, the national network received *federal operating subsidies* of $1.07 for every dollar of ticket revenue, not even counting state-level subsidies. That means if you bought a ticket for $100, taxpayers chipped in $107 to fund that service. States, depending on the service, contributed more.

I've written about this extensively:






Will full service dining ever return to the Western trains?


The NEC is the only Amtrak Service that effectively competes with every other intercity transportation service, on top of being profitable. I was strongly agreeing with you up to this point: The NEC is not the enemy of Passenger Rail in the US, it is the model. I haven’t seen any data that...




www.amtraktrains.com





I'm a CPA with experience in Federal Government and Non-Profit accounting who wants the LD trains to be profitable. That being said, I don't think they're going to get there nor should that even be a goal.


----------



## Larry H. (May 25, 2021)

I don't think that the old railroads made a mistake in offering fine dinning. According to the book on Railroad Diners they usually lost money but the object was to promote the companys image and provide the kind of meals many of the pullman passengers would have enjoyed if they went to a good restaurant near where they lived. Providing the kind of meals Amtrak has sunk to the past few years is not something that will want to make people decide to take the train as Biden wants. In fact its keeping a lot of business away, the opposite of what they really need. The diner and lounge should just be considered a cost of running a long distance train, not unlike the fact they need Engines to make it go.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 25, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Not even. In FY19, the national network received *federal operating subsidies* of $1.07 for every dollar of ticket revenue, not even counting state-level subsidies. That means if you bought a ticket for $100, taxpayers chipped in $107 to fund that service. States, depending on the service, contributed more.
> 
> I've written about this extensively:
> 
> ...



You love your use of bold and italics don't you....
I guess its purely rhetorical. 

I read your linked post (written just before I joined). You mind dropping a link to your sources?


----------



## Nick Farr (May 25, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> The overhead cost of the NEC tracks is gargantuan, and whatever profit the NEC makes get eaten away by track maintenance.



Wrong, and wrong. The overhead cost of the NEC tracks is less than the deficit carried by the *operating deficit *for the rest of the national network. Further, Amtrak does not charge a market rate to the state-level commuter railroads for track and station access, it in fact subsidizes those state services.

If we look at all operating infrastructure spend in FY19, Amtrak spent $83.6M total, on the core NEC services, with another $0.612M on ancillary Amtrak services against a total operating infrastructure spend of $352M.

So, for a service that accounts for $1.377 BILLION, or 41% of Amtrak's total operating revenue (including state service subsidies), you're talking about a 10% total operating infrastructure spend *where Amtrak owns its own rails*.

If we're talking about capital expenditures, if we go back to the Level 1 accounts, you might be able to craft an argument that the NEC is not profitable without Federal grants. This is a bit misleading, since those grants for the NEC are to support infrastructure used by many other transit services other than Amtrak. But let's just say you ignore that inconvenient reality. If you wanted to make the argument the NEC is not profitable, you could say that the entire operation (trains and rails) is operating at a $131M deficit net of Federal Grants.

However--even this is inaccurate. Amtrak's operating revenue (not including Federal Grants) minus operating expenses is still a positive $541M dollars.

In other words, at the operating level, for *every dollar of revenue on the NEC, taxpayers put in $0.37 and of that, ALL of it goes into capital (i.e. non-operating) uses.*



Tlcooper93 said:


> The LD routes don't pay for tracks, and sleeper prices do provide a nice blanket of extra cash.
> I really do wish I could look at some numbers to find the actual facts.





https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2019/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2019.pdf



While expensive, the sleepers are in fact the biggest drag on LD train revenues because of their high labor and servicing costs, along with the fact that most of the users of sleepers are between two major cities as opposed to along an entire route. 

This is not to say they aren't the biggest opportunity for growth. Honestly, they should have used a lot of that federal money to update the sleeper car rolling stock to something like what you'd find on OBB, to develop a truly luxury product. If you can get 80% occupancy from Chicago straight through to EMY, you could definitely make a nice profit on a new sleeper.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 25, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Wrong, and wrong. The overhead cost of the NEC tracks is less than the deficit carried by the *operating deficit *for the rest of the national network. Further, Amtrak does not charge a market rate to the state-level commuter railroads for track and station access, it in fact subsidizes those state services.
> 
> If we look at all operating infrastructure spend in FY19, Amtrak spent $83.6M total, on the core NEC services, with another $0.612M on ancillary Amtrak services against a total operating infrastructure spend of $352M.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the bold and italics yet again. It really does help us all read english.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 25, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> You love your use of bold and italics don't you....



Whatever I can do to get people to actually look at the facts and pay attention to them, as opposed to wishwash their way into their preconceived notions.

And honestly, *using bold italics to get people to pay attention to the truth* is still better than spouting off ignorant misconceptions.



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2019/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2019.pdf


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Disagree. On all the European services, the Cafe Car staff are all trained to do all the things. Add in the SCAs, and you can have a fully staffed Dining Car with less staff than you have now.



I disagree. I don’t think Amtrak long distance trains should be copying European Services. 

The concept of a chef on a train is not some crazy concept that doesn’t work.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Whatever I can do to get people to actually look at the facts and pay attention to them, as opposed to wishwash their way into their preconceived notions.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/monthlyperformancereports/2019/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2019.pdf



You’re not posting facts, you’re posting your own opinions and claiming they are facts. 

The documents you are posting do not back up your opinions.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 25, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Whatever I can do to get people to actually look at the facts and pay attention to them, as opposed to wishwash their way into their preconceived notions.
> 
> And honestly, *using bold italics to get people to pay attention to the truth* is still better than spouting off ignorant misconceptions like you have.
> 
> http://Here's the performance report I based those numbers off of/URL]



I understand that you feel your career backs up your opinions, and I am not exactly qualified to comment on whether or not you are genuinely qualified. I'm a mere violinist. That said, even if I were telling someone here about the nuances of a Beethoven symphony, I would try to find a less condescending way of approaching it.


----------



## jiml (May 25, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> I've ridden and tried food offerings on DB, FS, Trenitalia, SNCF, SBB and OBB. To be honest, I didn't like any of it. I never found Amtrak flex dining to be that far off from what was offered in Europe on comparably priced trains (we have to exclude all luxury routes). That said, the European offerings may be healthier to a degree.



Although I haven't had that many Euro food offerings, I have had at-seat meals in FC in both Germany and the UK, as well as one in the DB Bordrestaurant. I'd generally concur with your assessment. Some were better than others, all were okay, none were memorable. In the DB diner there were two staff - one behind the counter preparing both food and drinks, plus a server who also worked the adjacent FC car.


----------



## lstone19 (May 25, 2021)

One the issues that plagues food service accounting is the idea that food service needs to be its own profit center as if it operates independently of the train. It doesn't. It's dependent on the train and its passengers. Sitting at home, I can't decide let's go to the Amtrak Dining Car for dinner; I have to be on the train to patronize the dining car.

Instead of looking at it as its own profit center, it should be looked at in terms of how it improves the overall profitability of the train (keep in mind that a loss is just negative profit so I will refer to the financial bottom line as profit even when it's a loss). The presence of food service will stimulate transportation sales. I expect some people want food service available even if they don't plan to patronize it so it's available just in case they need it. If a train's profit is higher with food service (including all food service costs and revenue), then food service is worth providing even if when just the food service costs and revenue are considered, food service shows a loss. In such a case, while on paper more people have paid for transportation, their decisions say that part of what they paid for was to have food service available if they wanted it and some of that additional transportation revenue should be credited to food service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

lstone19 said:


> One the issues that plagues food service accounting is the idea that food service needs to be its own profit center as if it operates independently of the train. It doesn't. It's dependent on the train and its passengers. Sitting at home, I can't decide let's go to the Amtrak Dining Car for dinner; I have to be on the train to patronize the dining car.
> 
> Instead of looking at it as its own profit center, it should be looked at in terms of how it improves the overall profitability of the train (keep in mind that a loss is just negative profit so I will refer to the financial bottom line as profit even when it's a loss). The presence of food service will stimulate transportation sales. I expect some people want food service available even if they don't plan to patronize it so it's available just in case they need it. If a train's profit is higher with food service (including all food service costs and revenue), then food service is worth providing even if when just the food service costs and revenue are considered, food service shows a loss. In such a case, while on paper more people have paid for transportation, their decisions say that part of what they paid for was to have food service available if they wanted it and some of that additional transportation revenue should be credited to food service.



Exactly. Just like many hotels lose money on food & beverage service. You can run a hotel without a bar and restaurant, but that’s a different class of hotel.


----------



## cocojacoby (May 25, 2021)

_I posted this idea a while ago on another website:_

*The Entrepreneurial Chef - A Radical Dining Car Concept*

Okay it's just an idea but what if Amtrak tries this?

Take one popular train like the Silver Meteor. Run it through to Boston in a Regional slot to generate some good major city press about this unique new opportunity to ride in a real railroad dining car.

Let four chefs bid on four slots (assuming 4 sets of equipment). Each chef gets to run one dining car turn. They have control of what to order and cook. They can get as creative as they want. They make the menus and they set their own prices. They can hire the servers they know are good or make it a family affair like many mom and pop restaurants. They must open for at least the traditional dining car hours but can also operate up to 24 hours if they want. They got a pretty good captive audience to sell to.

The entrepreneurial chef does not get paid by Amtrak but they get to keep any profits that they make. They get to run their own restaurant without the risk and expense. I am sure there are Amtrak chefs out there who have great ideas on how to run a dining car but never got the chance to do it. I can see a spirited competition between the four chefs generating some good press and having people riding certain trains just for each different culinary experience. Each chef could have his or her own specialty.

The cost to run the dining car for Amtrak would be little to nothing. Amtrak can proudly tell the story of the unique opportunity it has given to these hard working men and woman who toil very hard at their craft behind the scenes. I think this could be a pretty exciting opportunity for some hard working folks who would never get such a chance in their lifetime.

Could it work? Silver Star and Lake Shore Limited next if it does.

_UPDATE: Eventually one Master Chef could be in charge of one entire name train (all consists) and he/she would have chefs under them to operate each consist as the Master Chef directs. _


----------



## jis (May 25, 2021)

lstone19 said:


> One the issues that plagues food service accounting is the idea that food service needs to be its own profit center as if it operates independently of the train. It doesn't. It's dependent on the train and its passengers. Sitting at home, I can't decide let's go to the Amtrak Dining Car for dinner; I have to be on the train to patronize the dining car.
> 
> Instead of looking at it as its own profit center, it should be looked at in terms of how it improves the overall profitability of the train (keep in mind that a loss is just negative profit so I will refer to the financial bottom line as profit even when it's a loss). The presence of food service will stimulate transportation sales. I expect some people want food service available even if they don't plan to patronize it so it's available just in case they need it. If a train's profit is higher with food service (including all food service costs and revenue), then food service is worth providing even if when just the food service costs and revenue are considered, food service shows a loss. In such a case, while on paper more people have paid for transportation, their decisions say that part of what they paid for was to have food service available if they wanted it and some of that additional transportation revenue should be credited to food service.



The legal requirement requiring F&B to operate as a separate P&L and at least break even, is gone... dumped in the trashcan of history. Amtrak does not have to adhere by that piece of legislation championed by Mica with the basic clear intent of eventually destroying LD service.

So maybe we are beating a dead horse some more as far as the legal requirements go. OTOH, it is probably worthwhile beating Amtrak management on their head reminding them that they may be trying to still ride the dead horse, and should dismount and get on something more upto date, at least some live horse as the case may be..


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 25, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> _I posted this idea a while ago on another website:_
> 
> Okay it's just an idea but what if Amtrak tries this?
> 
> ...



This idea would certainly match their current advertising campaign of the rails being a unique travel experience. Be cool to see a silver service run up to Boston (instead of having to do a somewhat ridiculous connection in either NYP or WAS).


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> I have also read and heard in various places that the LD trains are not as unprofitable as popular train ideology says.


Yes, you will "hear" that a lot in the foamer world. You'll also hear conspiracies about how Amtrak is cooking the books and wilfully violating accounting laws as part of a plot to kill LD trains.

Many people are saying it . . .


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

Larry H. said:


> I don't think that the old railroads made a mistake in offering fine dinning. According to the book on Railroad Diners they usually lost money but the object was to promote the companys image and provide the kind of meals many of the pullman passengers would have enjoyed if they went to a good restaurant near where they lived.


A lot of that marketing effort for the dining cars was aimed at executives who traveled by train in the pre-airline days. The thinking was if a VP of Acme Widgets was riding the train from NY to CHI on Taggart Transcontinental RR and enjoyed the trip, he would consider shipping his widgets on TTRR as well.

Not many titans of industry take business trips on LD trains these days.


----------



## NS VIA Fan (May 25, 2021)

jiml said:


> I think everyone is aware that the Ocean is suspended, and although it has been suggested as a model for single-night Amtrak trips in other threads, the content in this thread was someone asking a question, a partial answer to that question regarding staffing and firsthand support (including mine) for that answer. However, it is an example of how to serve what is essentially a flex meal.



Exactly!

This is Breakfast served westbound on the Ocean departing Ste-Foy at 6:30am. The Bacon, Eggs and Roast Potatoes were prepared by a caterer 24 hours earlier, chilled and put aboard in Halifax. Then reheated in convection ovens and re-plated. The toast, coffee and juice are freshly prepared and BTW.....a very good meal. It's all in the presentation 

(The Ocean is not running due to restriction at the Quebec/New Brunswick Provincial Border.....and even more restrictive measures at the Nova Scotia Border so I don't think VIA really has any option. The Ocean will be back as soon as those restrictions are lifted)


----------



## jiml (May 25, 2021)

cocojacoby said:


> _I posted this idea a while ago on another website:_
> 
> *The Entrepreneurial Chef - A Radical Dining Car Concept*
> 
> ...


The problem would be keeping the style of cuisine "centered" enough to appeal to a wide range of people. It might be awkward if the one overnight you're spending on the train was Thai-Asian Fusion night (for one example) and that's not your "cup of tea". If the restaurant you frequent or the hotel you're staying in has a specialty in the dining room you have the option of going somewhere else. On the train - not so much.


----------



## Larry H. (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> A lot of that marketing effort for the dining cars was aimed at executives who traveled by train in the pre-airline days. The thinking was if a VP of Acme Widgets was riding the train from NY to CHI on Taggart Transcontinental RR and enjoyed the trip, he would consider shipping his widgets on TTRR as well.
> 
> Not many titans of industry take business trips on LD trains these days.



No Doubt that is a consideration.. But if rail is to become and alternative to flying and gains a proper place in transportation once again, then maybe more of the company men would be riding the rails. How about all the rich CEO's of internet and other new energy sources, shouldn't they put there money where there mouth's are? I guess though they all haver their own CO spewing planes and will leave the energy saving to the rest of the poor population?


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Not many titans of industry take business trips on LD trains these days.



Titans of industry were traveling private rail cars back in the day. Just like they are traveling in private planes today.

Nobody is asking for a return of the Turquoise Room. We are asking for the return of a Denny’s / IHOP quality.


----------



## cocojacoby (May 25, 2021)

jiml said:


> The problem would be keeping the style of cuisine "centered" enough to appeal to a wide range of people. It might be awkward if the one overnight you're spending on the train was Thai-Asian Fusion night (for one example) and that's not your "cup of tea". If the restaurant you frequent or the hotel you're staying in has a specialty in the dining room you have the option of going somewhere else. On the train - not so much.



There is a kind of built-in protection there. If the food doesn't sell the chef makes no money. I got a feeling any Amtrak chef knows what sells and what doesn't. If he was cooking Flat Iron Steaks all night I bet you it will be on the menu.


----------



## me_little_me (May 25, 2021)

Waste of time discussion because none of the real facts are known (or have not been revealed here):

(This all refers to traditional service before the introduction of any flex dining)

Did Amtrak fund the meals at their full retail price i.e. do they assign $25 of the fare to the diner for a meal listed as $25?

If not the above, did they fund the meals at full price minus the profit they made from a coach passenger for the meal i.e. for the cost of food, the operational cost of the car (cost of the train /# of cars), the cost of the servers and chef?

If not the above, what did they fund the meal service at?

How much lost opportunity occurred because Amtrak ran out of food when they could have fed more coach passengers? They do it all the time on cafe food. That's the stupidest mistake of all - not making money from customers because you ran out of product!

Does Amtrak even know those numbers?

The only "fact" I have heard is that Amtrak only funds meals actually eaten so the funding passengers who skip a meal does not go to the diner's benefit. Should that be the case or should the diner be credited with so much per passenger or so much for each passenger meal whether provided or not? Arguments for both sides but makes a big difference to the diner's "profitability".

Would the diners be better managed if there was an executive assigned to try and make more money so as to come up with some creative ideas? That would include having more flexibility on each route, possibly eliminating central buying in favor of local, having longer serving hours with early bird and late meal specials for coach passengers, etc.

There is no way to tell whether any portion of any services provided make a profit without knowing the cost of the service itself and the total intake of the service.

Then there is the loss leader concept. Do I include items that cost money but that do not make a profit to increase the primary business to reduce loss or increase profits? AGR is an example. It makes no money itself but if it encourages loyalty and more travel, then it is worth having it as a loss leader.

Amtrak has made repeated attempts to reduce sales by denying coach passengers access to the diner even for less than full routes or diner occupancy (e.g. breakfasts, first and last meal of many trips) in the recent past, eliminated "specials" to encourage coach passengers to eat in the diner or for takeout to their seat), etc. Amtrak gives away opportunities to make money because their only aim is to reduce cost, not reduce loss or make a profit.

So what is gained by discussing the topic other than more "Let's see how many postings we can make and how far afield we can go from the topic's purpose" discussions until it degrades into another discussion of flex meals or how airline A compares to Airline B on their quality?


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

me_little_me said:


> Waste of time discussion because none of the real facts are known (or have not been revealed here):
> 
> (This all refers to traditional service before the introduction of any flex dining)
> 
> ...



Not sure why you posted an angry emoji on my post about keeping a chef? 

But I do agree there are too many unowns. 

“How would you run a profitable dining car?” 

Well what route? Am I getting a set amount of money from the sleeping car tickets sold? Can I plan on sleeping car and coach attendants to actually deliver to-go meals for me? Do I have to use Amtrak’s existing contracts with multiple middle men or can I create my own supply chain?


----------



## Dakota 400 (May 25, 2021)

dlagrua said:


> In this history of passenger rail the dining car was not there to make money but to accommodate the passengers and entice them to choose one route over another. Today there is no competition for LD passenger rail but if there is any plan to boost LD ridership; Amtrak needs to consider that a key selling point is providing fresh food and some amenities for the sleeper passengers.



You are correct. If one recalls the ads for the Super Chief, UP's City of...trains, the 20th Century Limited, the Broadway Limited, etc., there was some emphasis on the amenities, the service, the dining available on those trains. 

Lots of good ideas and discussion on this thread. There is no one "right" or "wrong" answer to the dining car problem. 

Amtrak's marketing and routes need to make people want to choose Amtrak over other modes of transportation.


----------



## me_little_me (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Not sure why you posted an angry emoji on my post about keeping a chef?
> 
> But I do agree there are too many unowns.
> 
> ...


I answered you in a PM. Questioning an emoji belongs there IMHO.


----------



## jis (May 25, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> You are correct. If one recalls the ads for the Super Chief, UP's City of...trains, the 20th Century Limited, the Broadway Limited, etc., there was some emphasis on the amenities, the service, the dining available on those trains.


AFAIR none of the food service was complementary though. Most likely the operating company decided that they will provide food service (possibly as a competitive imperative) and contracted with some outfit to do the provisioning etc. and then set a price list to collect part of the cost from the actual consumer and possibly ate some cost as part of the cost of operation of the train presumably covered from general ticket revenues.


----------



## Dakota 400 (May 25, 2021)

jis said:


> AFAIR none of the food service was complementary though



The passengers paid for each meal. In my limited experience during that era, there was nothing complimentary that was provided by the dining car or the lounge car. It's fun to read menus and lounge car offerings just to see what was being served and was available.



jis said:


> contracted with some outfit to do the provisioning etc.



The timetables I remember reading that had a list of corporate offices and such information always had a Dining Car Department. What were the total responsibilities of that Department and its Supervisor? I don't know. (Maybe another poster will have some information about this.) With a railroad the size of PRR, Santa Fe, UP, C & NW, etc. and the number of passenger trains they operated, I question whether their dining service was contracted to another firm.


----------



## jis (May 25, 2021)

Dakota 400 said:


> The timetables I remember reading that had a list of corporate offices and such information always had a Dining Car Department. What were the total responsibilities of that Department and its Supervisor? I don't know. (Maybe another poster will have some information about this.) With a railroad the size of PRR, Santa Fe, UP, C & NW, etc. and the number of passenger trains they operated, I question whether their dining service was contracted to another firm.


 I was actually thinking of the SantaFe situation and the tight relationship between Santa Fe with Harvey House for provisioning food service. I wonder if other railroads also used either subsidiaries or external outfits to provide some or all part s of the service.


----------



## jloewen (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I would start by encouraging more people to dine and upselling them on drinks, desserts, etc.
> 
> Encouraging sleeping car attendants to provide room service opens up more tables in the diner so that’s a win.
> 
> There should also be an option for coach passengers to order food from the diner to be eaten at their seat or in the lounge car.


Yes, each of the above steps seem rather obvious. Add one more: require train crews (on ALL trains, not just overnight ones) to confine themselves to occupying no more than 4 seats in the cafe and dining cars, total, thus freeing up more seats for eating customers.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Yes, you will "hear" that a lot in the foamer world. You'll also hear conspiracies about how Amtrak is cooking the books and wilfully violating accounting laws as part of a plot to kill LD trains.
> 
> Many people are saying it . . .


It has a solid grounding in truth, backed up by some solid research. While the more fanciful interpretations may be a conspiracy theory, and I doubt most long distance trains would be profitable even on a _corrected_ fully allocated cost basis, its foundation is solid. And many trains likely do at least break even on an above-the-rail, directly attributable accounting basis if you could only get the numbers. BTW, according to Fred Frailey in "Twilight of the Great Trains", even SP used the above-the-rail accounting in deciding which trains to target for discontinuation, although they used fully allocated costs in their presentation to regulatory bodies, to make the trains financial performance look worse.

The RPA released a report in October 2018 about Amtrak's misallocation of internal costs. A sample:

*"Here are examples that illustrate how fully allocated costing and APT’s imprecise methodology produce information that is, at best, misleading and, at worst, patently false.
APT ERRORS
• APT charged the Miami terminal with costs for snow removal incurred elsewhere on the Amtrak system. Once the managers in Miami identified this obvious error, the Finance Department stopped the allocation.lii While such an error is easy to identify, other less obvious errors can go unnoticed. Consider the cost for snow removal at Buffalo NY, which experiences frequent, heavy snowfalls, versus the cost at Atlanta GA or Charlotte NC, which experience only occasional, light snowfalls. Does APT assign the actual cost of snow removal at each station or sum the cost for the entire system then trickle them back down to stations using a single rule, which will produce cost information as equally erroneous as that for Miami?
• APT produced cost allocations for FY 2017 that are clearly wrong. For example, it allocated:
o Over $67,000 of Maintenance of Way (M/W) costs for the Michigan Line to two long distance routes (Lake Shore and Capitol Limited) that do not use it;
o Nearly $300,000 in costs for High Speed Maintenance of Equipment to routes other than Acela;
o Over $430,000 in Yard & Equipment Moves in New York and Chicago to routes that do not reach either city.
o Nearly $600,000 of Western Division M/W to routes in the East and Midwest;
o Over $3,000,000 of Electric Traction Maintenance of Way (wires, sub stations, etc.) costs to routes that do not operate on electrified NEC infrastructure, including a half million in false costs to the long-distance system.
o Over $10.7 million in track maintenance costs to State Supported and Long Distance routes but less than $90 thousand to the entire NEC.
• Frequency of Train Trips is the statistic that APT uses to allocate many costs. When this statistic is incorrect, the result is wrong. In FY 2017, this statistic was twice the actual for the Empire Builder and the Lake Shore Limited. The likely cause of the error was mistakenly treating the Portland section of the Builder and Boston section of the Lake Shore as separate trains. The known consequence was incorrectly overstating all costs allocated to these two routes on the basis of train frequency by a factor of two."*

You can get the entire report here, although I do not know if it is available to non-RPA members (I hope it is, though):


https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/5819/amtraks_route_accounting_-_fatally_flawed.pdf


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 25, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> It has a solid grounding in truth, backed up by some solid research. While the more fanciful interpretations may be a conspiracy theory, and I doubt most long distance trains would be profitable even on a _corrected_ fully allocated cost basis, its foundation is solid. And many trains likely do at least break even on an above-the-rail, directly attributable accounting basis if you only get the numbers. BTW, according to Fred Frailey in "Twilight of the Great Trains", even SP used the above-the-rail accounting in deciding which trains to target for discontinuation, although they use fully allocated costs in their presentation to regulatory bodies, to make the trains financial performance look worse.
> 
> The RPA released a report in October 2018 about Amtrak's misallocation of internal costs. A sample:
> 
> ...



While I couldn't remember this report at the time (a few hours ago) this is where I read something that concluded what you just so eloquently laid out, this is what I was referring to.

Those who make these NEC/LD routes claims may be right or wrong, but our thoughts should not be dismissed as "spouting off ignorant misconceptions."


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

One thing to remember is dining cars pretty much always operated at a loss. The splendid dining on trains such as the Super Chief or the 20th Century Limited was intended as a marketing differentiator targeted at business travelers in days when passenger tariffs were tightly regulated by the ICC and the railroads could not compete on price.

I do not expect, or even want those days to return. If they tried it, it would be targeted as a frivolous waste of taxpayer dollars, much as Mica's laser focus on free wine killed the wine tastings on the Starlight and Builder. What is reasonable to expect reasonable food service on par with a casual dining restaurant, such as Denny's or Applebee's.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> The RPA released a report in October 2018 about Amtrak's misallocation of internal costs. A sample:


Yes I am familiar with the RPA (and its lack of credibility, in my book), and the report (and its flaws, which I will not rehash here; it has been extensively discussed elsewhere). They are part of the foamer world and its conspiracy theories I was referring to.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Yes I am familiar with the RPA (and its lack of credibility, in my book), and the report (and its flaws, which I will not rehash here; it has been extensively discussed elsewhere). They are part of the foamer world and its conspiracy theories I was referring to.



So rather than have a discussion just call the other side names. Very mature of you


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> So rather than have a discussion just call the other side names. Very mature of you


Who did I call what name?

Unless you mean foamer - if so, I apologize; I wasn't trying to insult with that. I consider myself a bit of a foamer too. I mean, after all, I am on here. 

I just don't buy the conspiracy theories, plus I have real world experience working for a railroad (and for other transportation companies), so I know there is often a logical explanation for Why Things Are The Way They Are that a lot of, um, "railfans" just aren't aware of, and that actually operating a railroad is way more complicated than a lot of people think.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

The RPA is a respected lobbying organization and generally fairly effective. Their professional staff does not consist of a rabid bunch of "foamers" (although their membership likely includes some). Their credibility on the Hill would not last long if they cited patent falsehoods and they guard their credibility pretty well.

Cite something that analyzes the flaws in the report if you yourself wish to remain credible.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Cite something that analyzes the flaws in the report if you yourself wish to remain credible.


There is at least one thread where it was hashed out extensively (unless I am confusing this with another site), and I am not going to get sucked down that rabbit hole. It is off-topic for this thread.

Same with criticizing the RPA (at least about being off-topic).


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

Okay, you are in that crowd that refuses cite anything because I should "do my own research" or "don't want to get sucked down a rabbit hole" as an excuse for trying to get away with groundless claims when challenged.

Talk about


jruff001 said:


> Many people are saying it . . .



Boy, you sure walked into that one.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

Oh, you can relax and leave OT decisions to the mods here.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> I just don't buy the conspiracy theories, plus I have real world experience working for a railroad (and for other transportation companies), so I know there is often a logical explanation for Why Things Are The Way They Are that a lot of, um, "railfans" just aren't aware of, and that actually operating a railroad is way more complicated than a lot of people think.



As do I. Since you want to keep this on topic so much - how would you operate the dining Cars on long distance trains?


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Okay, you are in that crowd that refuses cite anything because I should "do my own research"


Sorry, are you "quoting" me? Because I didn't say that.

In fact, I purposefully did NOT say that. I know many people here are going to believe what they want to believe, facts be damned, and their minds are made up. At most their "research" will be to re-blog a self-serving report from a self-serving organization that has no accountability outside of its own echo chamber. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince them otherwise. That is what I meant by rabbit hole.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

No, but you did say you did not want to go down a rabbit hole and the crowd I was referring to (generally on Quora) uses both excuses as reasons not to cite sources when challenged. Wasting one's own time is another of the excuses that crowd uses, too, BTW. Meanwhile you are, in fact, wasting your time here by making apparently groundless claims. Time that might be better used to better argue your position by finding your sources.

Who knows, if you actually had some sources to cite that we could read and consider, you just might be able to change some minds. Mere assertions will not accomplish that, so you are, indeed, wasting your time.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> As do I. Since you want to keep this on topic so much - how would you operate the dining Cars on long distance trains?


Since it is impossible to do so profitably, it would depend on now much in the way of dining car losses the corporation as a whole can tolerate. (EDITED TO ADD: Or what Congress mandates.)

If huge losses can be tolerated, probably something similar to what is characterized here as "traditional dining car service" that existed back in the 1990s with fresh on-board preparation and real crockery.

If the goal is to minimize financial losses, probably something like this:

For sleeping car passengers, complimentary pre-plated "tray meal service" that was on certain lower-volume single-night trains like the Montrealer and the Cardinal in the 80s/90s (hot main course heated in an oven and everything served on one tray) or the Empire Builder Portland section box cold meal service, served in a table section of a lounge / dining car. Include complimentary wine / beer at lunch and dinner if you could do something about employee theft.

For coach passengers, an enhanced cafe / snack car. The hot tray / cold box meals described above could be sold as take-away to coach passengers to eat at their seats or in the lounge.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> No, but you did say you did not want to go down a rabbit hole and the crowd I was referring to (generally on Quora) uses both excuses as reasons not to cite sources when challenged. Wasting one's own time is another of the excuses that crowd uses, too, BTW.


Sorry I am not at all familiar with Quora. I have heard of it but can't say I have ever been there (though maybe I did click through something on it once or twice during a mindless random internet session when I had time to kill, but if I did it wasn't memorable) and I certainly haven't posted there.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Since it is impossible to do so profitably, it would depend on now much in the way of dining car losses the corporation as a whole can tolerate.



Why is it impossible? At some point sleeping car prices would cover the cost of the car and staff.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Sorry I am not at all familiar with Quora. I have heard of it but can't say I have ever been there (though maybe I did click through something on it once or twice during a mindless random internet session when I had time to kill, but if I did it wasn't memorable) and I certainly haven't posted there.


Never said you did, just that the pattern of argument (or lack thereof) you use matches closely to posters of a certain mentality there who make assertions and then refuse to cite sources or references using excuses similar to yours. That approach isn't limited to Quora, or here, or the web itself, but is as old as mankind. I've just seen it with a lot of frequency on Quora throughout 2020 and 2021.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why is it impossible? At some point sleeping car prices would cover the cost of the car and staff.


Sure, if the main point of sleeping car revenue is to cover dining car losses. (And you seem to be assuming sleeping car fares have an unlimited ceiling.)

But there are lots of other costs to running a railroad to that fares are supposed to cover. Which they already don't.

This is one of the things that amuses me about this site. If you go by the number of words posted about various topics, there is a disproportionate number of words posted about dining car food and service compared to everything else, as if that were THE MOST IMPORTANT THING about operating a train safely from Chicago to the West Coast. But, believe it or not, there are a LOT of other things that go into running passenger trains (outside of some high-end luxury or "dinner trains").

This may come a shock, but the dining car menu selection is only a very small part of a much larger universe.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Never said you did, just that the pattern of argument (or lack thereof) you use matches closely to posters of a certain mentality there who make assertions and then refuse to cite sources or references using excuses similar to yours.


Hmm, maybe I'll have to check it out!


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Sure, if the main point of sleeping car revenue is to cover dining car losses. (And you seem to be assuming sleeping car fares have an unlimited ceiling.)
> 
> But there are lots of other costs to running a railroad to that fares are supposed to cover. Which they already don't.
> 
> ...



Are you capable of having a discussion without talking down to someone?

This is a thread about dining cars. Anyone with basic intelligence would expect dining cars to be the main topic of discussion. (See... doesn’t feel to good does it?)


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Hmm, maybe I'll have to check it out!


Well, in the political threads you will have lots of company in your inability to marshal convincing arguments with appropriate references to support them.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> what is characterized here as "traditional dining car service" that existed back in the 1990s with fresh on-board preparation and real crockery.



What most people mean by “traditional dining car service” existed up until October of 2019 on all LD trains except for city, Star, and cardinal. 

If you want to throw in the real China and glassware that was still around on some trains in 2016 but was being phased out by then. (I know it was on at least the Starlight that year... maybe the builder too).


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> Well, in the political threads you will have lots of company in your inability to marshal convincing arguments with appropriate references to support them.


See my Post # 80. I am not here to convince anyone about anything. I know there is a certain dogma here about dining cars, the supposed sabotage of the LD network, and the competency of Amtrak management that I cannot - and have no wish to try to - change. I am here solely for my own bemusement.

OTOH it might surprise you to know that I agree with some of the orthodoxy here. Like WHY do crew take over half the lounge / dining car table areas? UNACCEPTABLE. And the rudeness of some crew and the inconsistency of OBS in general. And that Flexible Dining is kinda tacky. And that Amtrak should DO SOMETHING about host railroad dispatching. But, I also know why those problems are so difficult to solve. The answer is not just "get new senior management." That isn't the problem. But enough off-topic-ness.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

Yeah, china and flatware were still on the Builder in 2016..

The Lakeshore had lost it's traditional dining service before 2019, they withdrew the diner due to shortage of serviceable Heritage diners and replaced it with a cafe car that served food similar to the Cardinal's. It was supposed to get its full service diner back with the VIewliners, but "Contemporary" (soon to be "Flexible") dining was rolled out instead.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What most people mean by “traditional dining car service” existed up until October of 2019 on all LD trains except for city, Star, and cardinal.


OK. I was using the 1990s - maybe into the 2000s - as an example because I thought I had seen posts where that era was held up as the standard of How Things Ought To Be, on a consistent system-wide basis, coast-to-coast. (And when did they stop sending Chefs to Culinary Institute of America training? I thought that was long before 2019, but I could be wrong.) Plus I was not considering the Cross Country Cafe concept to be "traditional dining."


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> OK. I was using the 1990s - maybe into the 2000s - as an example because I thought I had seen posts where that era was held up as the standard of How Things Ought To Be, on a consistent system-wide basis, coast-to-coast. (And when did they stop sending Chefs to Culinary Institute of America training? I thought that was long before 2019, but I could be wrong.) Plus I was not considering the Cross Country Cafe concept to be "traditional dining."



The cross country cafe had a chef preparing food in a kitchen. It was used as an actual ccc car all of 6 months before being used as a traditional dining car anyways. If you’re going to use that logic we can’t count the 1990’s because of the lounge / diner hi-level Cars used on the Eagle.

What point are you actually trying to make? What do you call traditional dining since you’re the expert now.


----------



## jruff001 (May 25, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What point are you actually trying to make? What do you call traditional dining since you’re the expert now.


I don't really care. You tell me what the definition should be and I'll be happy to go with that. I didn't realize it was such a technical and sensitive topic. I am pretty sure I have seen posts on here to the effect that "dining car service has been going downhill for 20-30 years" so I picked the 1990s as a general reference / comparison point since that was, you know, about 20-30 years ago.  But NOT GOOD ENOUGH, apparently. (I don't see a "wag finger" emoji or I would put it here.)

But I guess the point that YOU are actually trying to make is that I have upset the apple cart here so the defense force has been alerted. Message received.

That and the "since you're the expert now" comment are kind of ironic for someone who just scolded me with, "Are you capable of having a discussion without talking down to someone?"


----------



## zephyr17 (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> See my Post # 80. I am not here to convince anyone about anything. I know there is a certain dogma here about dining cars, the supposed sabotage of the LD network, and the competency of Amtrak management that I cannot - and have no wish to try to - change. I am here solely for my own bemusement.
> 
> OTOH it might surprise you to know that I agree with some of the orthodoxy here. Like WHY do crew take over half the lounge / dining car table areas? UNACCEPTABLE. And the rudeness of some crew and the inconsistency of OBS in general. And that Flexible Dining is kinda tacky. And that Amtrak should DO SOMETHING about host railroad dispatching. But, I also know why those problems are so difficult to solve. The answer is not just "get new senior management." That isn't the problem. But enough off-topic-ness.


They why did you try to keep up your end of the debate?

Glad we agree on many things. Inconsistent onboard service is Amtrak's worst problem that is wholly within Amtrak's control and it has been for decades. I don't blame the unions for this, many companies are unionized and their management still manages to have a reasonable employee discipline regimen. The STB and FRA just issued the metrics they will measure passenger train delay in December and hopefully it will finally give Amtrak access to relief from regulatory agencies that it has lacked to enforce the statutory priority it has had since it started in 1971.

As far as on topic goes, as I mentioned in another post, I certainly neither expect nor want a return to a Super Chief/20th Century Limited style of fine dining. On the very remote chance they ever tried it, I think it would backfire spectacularly politically. I do expect a casual dining level of food on the long distance trains, however. I don't care about the preparation method so much, even under the last iteration of traditional dining most of the food was NOT freshly prepared onboard, the steaks and egg dishes were the exception and were the only dishes cooked to order, IIRC. Pretty much everything else was prepared beforehand and heated up. I heard they used the sous vide method on some things, but I don't know (and don't have a source).

Dining cars were never expected to make a profit back in the RR days and they didn't. They were originally a form of marketing, and brand differentiation and loyalty to the target demographic of business travelers. The railroads had budget options for travelers who wanted them, such as the early bird dinners on the CZ, or buffet cars or lunch counter diners. While Pullman passengers were expected to be the bulk of dining car patrons, they generally did not restrict coach passenger access to the diners. For those railroads who aggressively tried to cut passenger losses, like SP, the diners were pretty much the first things to go since they just compounded any losses. Other railroads, like Santa Fe and UP, largely kept them on major trains and maintained high levels of service, primarily because of their perception it was still associated with their overall brand.

I don't need tablecloths, or even china. I don't need flowers on the table. I do think reasonable food service with healthy (and unhealthy) choices is necessary on journeys that sometimes can be more than 40 hours long. I've ridden Amtrak since its inception and do not expect some kind of resurrection of the name trains of the past. I do want something more than a reheated disposable pan of mixed up junk shoved in front of me.


----------



## jis (May 25, 2021)

I moved what I had posted here to its own thread...





__





Passenger Train Journal 2021:2 with Eyewitness Accounts of Amtrak at its Creation


This issue has couple of articles written by gentlement who were neck deep in the wheeling and dealing that went on leading to the creation of Amtrak and subsequent attempts to hobble it, and how finally Watergate diverted everyone's attention allowing Amtrak to sneak by and sort of thrive. One...




www.amtraktrains.com


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 25, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> I am pretty sure I have seen posts on here to the effect that "dining car service has been going downhill for 20-30 years" so I picked the 1990s as a general reference / comparison point since that was, you know, about 20-30 years ago.



The “chef inspired” meals from like 2007-14/15 ish were quite good but other than those disappearing the food quality hasn’t changed much. I mean scrambled eggs are scrambled eggs.

I thought the point you were trying to make is we hadn’t had traditional dining since the 1990’s.


----------



## toddinde (May 26, 2021)

lordsigma said:


> A lot of good the great dining on the VIA Ocean is doing with the train not running. I understand the point of it being mentioned here - as a dining model that we wish Amtrak would consider instead of dining flexibly (and the argument is probably valid it seems the Ocean took a pretty good approach) - but just wanted to point out the irony of praising VIA rail in comparison to Amtrak when the train has been totally discontinued with no restoration plan in sight....
> 
> I think dining improvements start with the presentation. Start with a decent presentation and plating the food. Even reheated pre-prepared food comes off a lot better when you take the time to least make it look like you care. Next develop consistency with how your staff is heating the meals. The same meal can be decent or slop if not reheated properly. Once you've got those two figured out then assess where you are - if that still doesn't cut it then look at your sourcing and see if better products are available.


Great point. I often hear VIA praised, as I have myself when I’ve ridden it, but it’s service is almost nonexistent across most of Canada. A once a week Canadian is slightly better than nothing.


----------



## jis (May 26, 2021)

toddinde said:


> Great point. I often hear VIA praised, as I have myself when I’ve ridden it, but it’s service is almost nonexistent across most of Canada. A once a week Canadian is slightly better than nothing.


Indeed, Amtrak has a vaguely viable national service that covers a significant part of the nation with daily service. VIA I don't think has a really viable and usable transportation service outside of the Ontario - Quebec Corridor. It has a few trains running occasionally here and there with great experiential stuff.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Indeed, Amtrak has a vaguely viable national service that covers a significant part of the nation with daily service. VIA I don't think has a really viable and usable transportation service outside of the Ontario - Quebec Corridor. It has a few trains running occasionally here and there with great experiential stuff.



Most people don’t think Amtrak has a viable and usable transportation corridor outside of the NEC.

The sunset and Cardinal run as much as the Canadian correct? Or was the Canadian knocked down to twice a week? (Pre-covid of course, the Canada and USA response to covid is quite different).


----------



## jis (May 26, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Most people don’t think Amtrak has a viable and usable transportation corridor outside of the NEC.


Most people? Is that your opinion or did you do a poll to come to that conclusion?  Then again most people in the US probably are quite unaware of the existence of Amtrak including the NEC too!

Anyway, that is why I hedged by saying vaguely viable. But to claim that Amtrak does not have a viable service anywhere outside the NEC is patently false too.


> The sunset and Cardinal run as much as the Canadian correct? Or was the Canadian knocked down to twice a week? (Pre-covid of course, the Canada and USA response to covid is quite different).


Those two constitute a relatively small part of the network outside the NEC. The rest are daily or more frequent, and specially California is more than usable.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Most people? Is that your opinion or did you do a poll to come to that conclusion?  Then again most people in the US probably are quite unaware of the existence of Amtrak including the NEC too!
> 
> Anyway, that is why I hedged by saying vaguely viable. But to claim that Amtrak does not have a viable service anywhere outside the NEC is patently false too.
> 
> Those two constitute a relatively small part of the network outside the NEC. The rest are daily or more frequent, and specially California is more than usable.



Most people that I talk to. Your mileage may vary of course.

Edit - I personally think both Amtrak and VIA offer viable transportation outside of corridors.


----------



## Trogdor (May 26, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Most people that I talk to. Your mileage may vary of course.
> 
> Edit - I personally think both Amtrak and VIA offer viable transportation outside of corridors.



Most people that you talk to ≠ most people. The fact that service was growing in California, Oregon and Washington pre-COVID, with routes such as the Hiawatha breaking ridership records would be evidence enough that there are viable non-NEC transportation corridors on Amtrak.

And to answer your other question, the Canadian was 2x/week during the off-season, and I vaguely recall that even during the past summer (pre-COVID plans), VIA had planned on only running the full route 2x/week, with a third trip only running partway.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 26, 2021)

Trogdor said:


> Most people that you talk to ≠ most people. The fact that service was growing in California, Oregon and Washington pre-COVID, with routes such as the Hiawatha breaking ridership records would be evidence enough that there are viable non-NEC transportation corridors on Amtrak.



Yeah I wasn’t clear on my point. I believe that most people in the USA feel that way. I don’t believe it is accurate as I do believe the corridors you mentioned as well as other (Michigan, North Carolina, etc) as well as long distance trains in the USA and Canada provide viable transportation.


----------



## neroden (May 26, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> I am not sure Germany would be a very useful comparison just because it is a small place geographically. Perhaps the biggest inefficiency identified by the PRR in the link was crew and equipment scheduling, largely because of the downtime that is inherent with long distance, overnight service. A short-distance network wouldn't have that issue to nearly the same degree. You can basically be open and serving from terminal to terminal. (Yes, you COULD do that all night, but not many people are going to be looking for a full meal at 0200.)



Run it 24 hours a day on the Lake Shore Limited and people would be coming in for meals all night. Might not be true on other trains, but that one attracts a lot of night owls.


----------



## neroden (May 26, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Basically, DB ICE meal service is basically the same thing as "flex dining" but with slightly better presentation.


Not just presentation. The food on Deutsche Bahn is also higher quality; I've seen some of the ingredients lists.



> They reheat packaged foods and instead of serving the TV dinner to you with a few holes poked in the foil, they actually plate it for you. They are able to get fresh bread, and occasionally a few other things fresh.


And even the non-fresh things are higher quality.



> They also take a lot more thought and care into how they nuke the prepackaged things. They usually also have a soup of the day and a beer on tap of some kind.
> 
> The only thing really stopping Amtrak from going this route are updates on the rolling stock, staff training and logistics.


Frankly, the only thing stopping Amtrak from doing this is unwillingness to pay for good food.


----------



## neroden (May 26, 2021)

jruff001 said:


> Yes I am familiar with the RPA (and its lack of credibility, in my book), and the report (and its flaws, which I will not rehash here; it has been extensively discussed elsewhere). They are part of the foamer world and its conspiracy theories I was referring to.


There are no flaws in that RPA report; your allegations are known to be false, and no flaws in it have been discussed or documented anywhere. You're making a false statement.

I think you're doing a pretty good job at demonstrating your personal lack of credibility. Put up or shut up.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 26, 2021)

neroden said:


> Run it 24 hours a day on the Lake Shore Limited and people would be coming in for meals all night. Might not be true on other trains, but that one attracts a lot of night owls.



Definitely would agree with this. LSL has middle of the night stops in greater Cleveland that force people to be up at early hours, many of whom (myself included) may want some food.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 26, 2021)

Canadian had been dropped to 2x week year round prior to COVID by 2019. They started a Vancouver-Edmonton turn with the same schedule and equipment once a week in the summer instead of a third through train. It ran as VIA 3 and 4.


----------



## jis (May 26, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> Definitely would agree with this. LSL has middle of the night stops in greater Cleveland that force people to be up at early hours, many of whom (myself included) may want some food.


Operationally, LSL looks more like the Night Owl than like a real long distance long distance train. It would be even more so if it ran using a 21st century schedule with end to end time that is about four hors or so less. Same is true of the Cap. So yeah I agree, service hours that are quite different from the longer long distance trains would be more appropriate.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Operationally, LSL looks more like the Night Owl than like a real long distance long distance train. It would be even more so if it ran using a 21st century schedule with end to end time that is about four hors or so less. Same is true of the Cap. So yeah I agree, service hours that are quite different from the longer long distance trains would be more appropriate.



What would be required in order to make LSL run more like the Night Owl?
My educated guess is because 65-67 run the majority of its time on Amtrak owned tracks, freight delays are not an issue. Do those trains encounter significant delays south of WAS? Perhaps the run time between Worcester and Albany on the Boston portion would have to be addressed as well.

Having 21st century overnight, intercity service between NYC and CHI could transform the eastern rail world.


----------



## jis (May 26, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> What would be required in order to make LSL run more like the Night Owl?
> My educated guess is because 65-67 run the majority of its time on Amtrak owned tracks, freight delays are not an issue. Do those trains encounter significant delays south of WAS?
> 
> Having 21st century overnight, intercity service between NYC and CHI could transform the eastern rail world.


Well, the scheduling issue are all intertwined with interactions with freight railroads. So who know what enticement will or won't work. I agree that minimally a post 6pm departure and an 8am-ish arrival, with reliable OTP, would transform eastern rail world

However, I was commenting less on that dream and more about the possibility of keeping some food service available throughout the trip since so many significant on/off points are in the middle of the night, and often people find it convenient to get a drink or a snack or even a meal soon after boarding even if it is at midnight.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 26, 2021)

jis said:


> Well, the scheduling issue are all intertwined with interactions with freight railroads. So who know what enticement will or won't work. I agree that minimally a post 6pm departure and an 8am-ish arrival, with reliable OTP, would transform eastern rail world
> 
> However, I was commenting less on that dream and more about the possibility of keeping some food service available throughout the trip since so many significant on/off points are in the middle of the night, and often people find it convenient to get a drink or a snack or even a meal soon after boarding even if it is at midnight.



Fair enough. Don't want to get too off topic.
I fondly remember Night Owl back in 2000 had a diner, and the experience was wonderful (you could order a pretty tastey spinach salad, and a freshly cooked pasta entree). LSL may be able to provide more or less what Night Owl offered and subsequently lost. Especially considering the aforementioned odd meal times.

One thing I can't wrap my head around is why simple cafe cars can't be stocked with basic edible food, and not exclusively the junkiest, most unhealthy sludge possible. The other day I was trying to figure out what to order aboard the Downeaster, and there really isn't anything worth eating (especially if you are attempting to be at least somewhat healthy). Even the fruit resembled plastic play toys more than food. Menu link here.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 26, 2021)

The Cascades (at least before COVID) has a pretty good cafe car menu with quite a few non junky selections, including Ivar's Clam Chowder (a local fav). Of course, it was determined by Washington DOT and not Amtrak.


----------



## jis (May 26, 2021)

zephyr17 said:


> The Cascades (at least before COVID) has a pretty good cafe car menu with quite a few non junky selections, including Ivar's Clam Chowder (a local fav). Of course, it was determined by Washington DOT and not Amtrak.


Indeed! That Clam Chowder Soup was heavenly. I hope they still have it.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 26, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> You’re not posting facts, you’re posting your own opinions and claiming they are facts.
> 
> The documents you are posting do not back up your opinions.



Can you actually cite any numbers in those (pre COVID) financials? Can you use actual numbers and figures from that report to back up whatever assertion you're trying to make?

Because until you do, I'm the one with the facts and you're the one with the opinions.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 26, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> We are asking for the return of a Denny’s / IHOP quality.



Therein lies part of the problem: You have Boomer Foamers riding the train who want their IHOP cow and carbs off a grill and those under 40 who aren't as interested in all that.

I'm not saying Flex Dining fits the bill for the latter. I'm merely saying you have to contemplate the labor and logistics involved before you throw around statements saying "Oh, just have an onboard cook!"

There's a critical difference between IHOP/Denny's and Applebees. Whereas both menus are pretty reliant upon a flattop grill and a deep frier, Applebees and other Fast Casual restaurants generally rely on fresher, pre-packaged baked goods and fresh vegetables that would require a longer logistics chain for the LD trains that can be managed reasonably.

The menus on Amtrak before Flex Dining were basically easily frozen meats, eggs and reheated starches, with some bagged salad mixes thrown in for good measure. There wasn't even a decent throughput capacity deep frier on board when I started riding.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 26, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> As do I. Since you want to keep this on topic so much - how would you operate the dining Cars on long distance trains?



First: I'd refresh all the dining cars so they didn't have the plastic feel of a mid 1980s McDonalds crossed with late 70s bureaucracy. Even if I couldn't improve that, just simple things like tablecloths, cloth napkins, silverware and lighting changes along with getting rid of having to use pens. I'd give the OBS handheld devices to enter orders, manage tickets and take payment similar to what you see in many restaurants now. I would definitely get rid of the microwaves and add in Turbochef style toaster/rapid heaters and deep friers that comply with regulations. Even simple things like rice cookers could add to the options in the Cafe and the Lounge cars. Add (or refresh) on-board dishwashers. Why not even experiment with 4/2 seatings as seen here in the DB ICE example.

Second: I'd retrain and cross-train the staff. You can have SCAs retrain to do an hour or two doing plating and prep work in the kitchen to assist the Chef or the Cafe Car attendant in the busier times. There's no reason the Cafe Car should ever go unstaffed, you can always have an SCA fill in here and there. 

Third: I'd refresh the menu. There's no reason we can't bring back the Traditional Menu, keep the Flex Dining options (though perhaps with less salt), add to the Fresh Fruit and Vegetable items (i.e. dinner salads) and add in daily specials from vendors along the way. Everything in the dining car should be plated and come with real silverware. Not everything has to be prepared fresh--lots of things come in bags and just get reheated or dumped into the prep bins.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 26, 2021)

neroden said:


> Frankly, the only thing stopping Amtrak from doing this is unwillingness to pay for good food.



I mean, yes--if you pay enough, someone will come up with a higher quality good.

However, realistically, Amtrak does not have nearly the wide array of vendors to choose from as DB does. There's more Long Distance diners leaving Munich between Noon and 9 PM as there are on the entire US National Network in any given day (even in Daily Service). 

Of course, there are no trains that leave Munich that cover nearly the same range without an in-station resupply as any of the LD trains in the Amtrak Network. They are all run out of Chicago and with few exceptions supplied out of Chicago. That is another challenge. How many national vendors will service two trains a day out of Denver? Two trains a day out of Kansas City? Etc.

That, and food quality in general is better in Western Europe and Germany. The portions are much smaller, generally, but it's still almost all exclusively reheated food.

To improve the dining options, Amtrak really has to partner with vendors that can reliably provide catering to urban train stations throughout the country as well as centered in Chicago. This is entirely doable, but Amtrak lacks the imagination and budget to make it happen. 

The underlying point is that people are going to take LD trains regardless of the food options. The demand for LD travel is a "captive market". What Amtrak has always struggled with is growing that market with more innovative soft products. 

I have never understood why they have not encouraged conferences "on a train", or thought about adding conference rooms or other things that would encourage larger group bookings. There's probably a ton of other great ideas out there that Amtrak hasn't contemplated that go well beyond just enhancing the dining options.

The other underlying point is that it doesn't matter what's on the menu, until the OBS is consistent in quality and procedure--no amount of logistical magic will make up for what is often unacceptable service.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 27, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Therein lies part of the problem: You have Boomer Foamers riding the train who want their IHOP cow and carbs off a grill and those under 40 who aren't as interested in all that.



I’m a millennial - pretty sure I’m younger than you are.


----------



## TheVig (May 27, 2021)

I miss getting food from a track side babushka.


----------



## MARC Rider (May 27, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Many hotel restaurants also lose money.
> 
> Amtrak is like that Econo Lodge in New York City that charges way too much but since every other hotel is taken you book it anyway.


Oh no, it's a good bit different. For most people (unless you can afford a private car charter), Amtrak is the ONLY long-distance train ride available. Also, the Econo Lodge isn't subsidized by taxpayer dollars, and won't go out of business if Congress decides to cut funding. Let's face it, if you want to ride trains for long distances, you're stuck with whatever Amtrak feeds you. At least it's better than the Orient Express in the 1970s which had no food service at all, and you had to buy food on the platform, possibly getting stranded at a station, in countries where sanitary conditions weren't always state of the art.


----------



## MARC Rider (May 27, 2021)

Larry H. said:


> But if rail is to become and alternative to flying and gains a proper place in transportation once again, then maybe more of the company men would be riding the rails.


The only kind of service service where rail is a serious alternative to flying is for corridor trips of 200 miles or less. Those trips aren't very long, and, as the Acela and Northeast Regional demonstrate, fine dining is not needed. The first class service on the Acela serves that niche market fine, and one should remember that the vast majority of passengers on the Acela don't feel the need to travel first class. Most passengers do fine on the drinks and snacks sold in the cafe car, as well as meals purchased at various station restaurants. And this is a route that is really used by big-shots (including the President of the United States before he was president) for business travel.


----------



## Nick Farr (May 27, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’m a millennial - pretty sure I’m younger than you are.



I miss the Amtrak Steaks. I've also seen a group of ladies in their 70s complain about how there's nothing on the menu they can eat on ever single CZ trip I've ever been on. (Even the COVID trip where my SCA was AWOL and I was just served breakfast in the Dining Car)

There's always anecdotes that disprove the general rule. The general rule, if you look at trends in dining, is away from IHOP/Dennys and towards things like Chipotle, Applebees, etc.


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 27, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> I miss the Amtrak Steaks. I've also seen a group of ladies in their 70s complain about how there's nothing on the menu they can eat on ever single CZ trip I've ever been on. (Even the COVID trip where my SCA was AWOL and I was just served breakfast in the Dining Car)
> 
> There's always anecdotes that disprove the general rule. The general rule, if you look at trends in dining, is away from IHOP/Dennys and towards things like Chipotle, Applebees, etc.



I really don't think what you're saying is very true, though it probably depends on what part of the country you are in.
First of all, many people in the 20-40 age range would absolutely want real food cooked on a real grill/stove. I don't think a quality steak will ever go out of style.

I think the only generational trend that is actually noticeable is a move away from unhealthy, unsustainable food, towards healthy, whole food items. The suggestion that Applebees is in some way fulfilling that is silly at best (Chipotle maybe). I've always viewed Applebees as an antiquated, unhealthy, and endangered restaurant chain.

Also, your groupings of IHOP/Denny's and Chipotle/Applebees don't make a lot of sense since Applebees is now owned by IHOP.

I think a good bottom line is if Amtrak served fresh, sustainable, and healthy food, it would appeal widely across generational boundaries.


----------



## me_little_me (May 27, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> Can you actually cite any numbers in those (pre COVID) financials? Can you use actual numbers and figures from that report to back up whatever assertion you're trying to make?
> 
> Because until you do, I'm the one with the facts and you're the one with the opinions.


Nobody on this forum has the facts. As I pointed out on my first post in this thread (and not disputed by anyone), Amtrak has not revealed, nor has anyone posted, the facts needed to make any kind of determination of the costs of the Dining car and its operations based on the subject of this topic.

If you have any real facts - and that means more than the general numbers provided by Amtrak - then please reveal them. Remember, Amtrak has been accused of obfuscating costs of LD trains by assigning to much of the costs to them and those charges may have been repeated in this forum but were not created here. Amtrak has been unwilling to be forthcoming about those costs. Unlike private companies in direct competition with others who don't want to provide that info to their competitors, Amtrak is not only a government corporation but does not have any direct competition for its services.

As to any other, so called facts, if they don't relate to dining services costs and revenues, they mean nothing in the context of this thread. If anyone wants to discuss the quality of current food or current vs "traditional" food, there is a mile-long thread (along with others) where such information can be posted. As to other facts, IMHO any costs costs charged and revenue generated are relevant where a portion is allocated to the diner car itself or to the costs of providing its service (food, staff, etc).

Thanks.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 27, 2021)

I really wish we had access to the coast Starlight numbers to see how the PPC affected revenue.

I know the ppc allowed the dining car to seat more coach passengers ($$$) and it also provided sleeping car passengers with their own private bar ($$$) that seemed to do decent business. 

I also believe it resulted in more sleeping car sales not only end to to end but shorter segments as well. I remember people on this forum saying they would get a sleeper for a daytime segment just because they wanted access to the PPC.


----------



## Cal (May 27, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I really wish we had access to the coast Starlight numbers to see how the PPC affected revenue.
> 
> I know the ppc allowed the dining car to seat more coach passengers ($$$) and it also provided sleeping car passengers with their own private bar ($$$) that seemed to do decent business.
> 
> I also believe it resulted in more sleeping car sales not only end to to end but shorter segments as well. I remember people on this forum saying they would get a sleeper for a daytime segment just because they wanted access to the PPC.


About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 27, 2021)

Cal said:


> About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that



Oh very much they did. I think business class only had access to the ppc during the wine tasting if they bought a ticket for the wine tasting - otherwise it was sleeping car passengers only.

The LSA’s would usually be at the bar which was at the diner end of the car so they would see everyone who came into the car.


----------



## Sidney (May 27, 2021)

Coach passengers were never allowed in the PPC. If memory serves,it was placed between the diner and the sleepers. I miss that car. Indeed,people would buy a sleeper for a day trip just to use it. It was a nice perk and another outlet for food. Nice plush chairs,a library,a movie theater downstairs. Wine and cheese tastings which were free,then a charge was added.

I read Anderson rode it once between Portland and Seattle and deemed it unnecessary and it was retired. I think that was the extent of Anderson's long distance travel on Amtrak.


----------



## jis (May 27, 2021)

Cal said:


> About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that


Yes, non-Sleeping Car passengers were strictly excluded except for the wine tasting thing for which BC passengers had to buy a wine tasting ticket, as did the sleeping car passengers starting at some point. Checking is very easy. There is thing called the ticket that everyone is supposed to have on the train which includes information about the class of travel. If need be that was checked at the door leading from the Diner to the PPC. Anyone entering from the other end was coming from Sleepers since there no Coach at the other end of the train.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 27, 2021)

Yes, it was exclusively for sleeping car passengers and it was enforced (the business class for wine tasting exception noted).

The dining car folks usually quickly get a good bead on which passengers are in sleepers and don't challenge those whom they know are. That goes for any train, not just the Starlight. They aren't running Checkpoint Charlie, but unrecognized passengers will be asked.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (May 27, 2021)

Nick Farr said:


> I mean, yes--if you pay enough, someone will come up with a higher quality good.


 Yes stocking any type of food cost money, better quality will cost more, fresh food can and does go bad, so cost will increase to cover shrinkage.


> However, realistically, Amtrak does not have nearly the wide array of vendors to choose from as DB does.


 Probably equal or more vendors with a national reach, bigger country, so more individual vendors.


> There's more Long Distance diners leaving Munich between Noon and 9 PM as there are on the entire US National Network in any given day (even in Daily Service).


The amount of trains each day is irrelevant.


> Of course, there are no trains that leave Munich that cover nearly the same range without an in-station resupply as any of the LD trains in the Amtrak Network. They are all run out of Chicago and with few exceptions supplied out of Chicago. That is another challenge. How many national vendors will service two trains a day out of Denver? Two trains a day out of Kansas City? Etc.


How many vendors do you need? There are tons of them available.


> That, and food quality in general is better in Western Europe and Germany. The portions are much smaller, generally, but it's still almost all exclusively reheated food.


Your thoughts, may or not be right. Reheating or fresh is based on the food.


> To improve the dining options, Amtrak really has to partner with vendors that can reliably provide catering to urban train stations throughout the country as well as centered in Chicago. This is entirely doable, but Amtrak lacks the imagination and budget to make it happen.


More of a effort issue. Imagination a bit too. You want something, than put effort into getting it.


> The underlying point is that people are going to take LD trains regardless of the food options. The demand for LD travel is a "captive market".


So many times I have talk to people about the food changes and there response was “no more train travel for me.”


> What Amtrak has always struggled with is growing that market with more innovative soft products.


Food is not a soft product?


> The other underlying point is that it doesn't matter what's on the menu, until the OBS is consistent in quality and procedure--no amount of logistical magic will make up for what is often unacceptable service.


Poorly trained and managed personnel create poor and unacceptable service. Again effort required.

Two biggest problems are the lack of attention and lack of effort. You need someone to make changes and to follow up and make sure it has been done. This requires both your attention and effort to do. Or since this is Amtrak, it requires management.


----------



## jiml (May 27, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I really wish we had access to the coast Starlight numbers to see how the PPC affected revenue.
> 
> I know the ppc allowed the dining car to seat more coach passengers ($$$) and it also provided sleeping car passengers with their own private bar ($$$) that seemed to do decent business.


We certainly supplemented their bottom line on more than one occasion.


----------



## njdon (May 27, 2021)

Cal said:


> About the PPC, did they actually restrict coach passengers from using it? Coach and business would come from the same way, right? I'm not sure how the LSA would enforce that


On my trips the PPC was restricted to sleeper passengers.


----------



## neroden (May 28, 2021)

Tlcooper93 said:


> What would be required in order to make LSL run more like the Night Owl?
> My educated guess is because 65-67 run the majority of its time on Amtrak owned tracks, freight delays are not an issue. Do those trains encounter significant delays south of WAS? Perhaps the run time between Worcester and Albany on the Boston portion would have to be addressed as well.
> 
> Having 21st century overnight, intercity service between NYC and CHI could transform the eastern rail world.


Yep, pretty much we need to get the states to buy the tracks

Albany-NY is Amtrak & NYS controlled already. 
There's a plan which NY State keeps refusing to commit to to buy the two empty trackbeds from Albany to the Pennsylvania border. 
There's an Amtrak plan to get their own tracks from Chicago to Porter, Indiana.
There are proposals to reroute the LSL via the Amtrak and Michigan owned Detroit line, and proposals to acquire track from Detroit to Toledo. 
I am not aware of proposals for passenger operator to get their own track from Toledo to the NY State - Pennsylvania border, but that is not generally a source of delays, and there *are* empty trackbeds along the route.


----------



## neroden (May 28, 2021)

I will comment that paleo is a huge, big food trend among millennials and younger people. 

An example of paleo? Steak and salads.

The people mouthing off about "what millennials want", haven't asked Millennials or even GenX. A lot of them want the steak.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 28, 2021)

neroden said:


> A lot of them want the steak.



And the fish entree that is actually a fish entree! (Grilled Salmon, Mahi, etc.) and an entree Salad option. 

Source - I’m a millennial!


----------



## Tlcooper93 (May 28, 2021)

neroden said:


> The people mouthing off about "what millennials want", haven't asked Millennials or even GenX. A lot of them want the steak.



Some people in particular in this thread love to comment in place of millennials, but hey, what else is new? 
In some thinking, I'm actually believe my generation appreciates fine dining just as much as any other generation.
Dining on a train is no exception. I'm sure the simplion orient express would be a hit if it returned to America (assuming its actually affordable).


----------



## me_little_me (May 28, 2021)

njdon said:


> On my trips the PPC was restricted to sleeper passengers.


And business class passengers for certain events i.e. wine tasting - but they had to pay for it.


----------



## jis (May 28, 2021)

Unfortunately attempting to create "facts" by endlessly repeating some party line BS is part of the long and hoary tradition of American Management culture and even more broadly, since the inception of the nation (and not even necessarily confined to the US). Amtrak is just doing exactly what managers do everywhere hoping that no one will notice. Not an excuse to let them off the hook, but something to keep in mind when we go looking for replacement managers. Something to avoid in the selection process. Heck, most of the Congress which essentially gives the marching instructions to the said Amtrak managers themselves have no qualms about trying to create "facts" by endlessly repeating BS either. How do we fix it?


----------



## NS VIA Fan (May 28, 2021)

Are the meals reheated in Amtrak Dining Cars actually microwaved or do they use a convection oven?

I can see perhaps a hamburger or pizza.......or is it just the misconception that if it's reheated....it must have been 'nuked'?


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 28, 2021)

NS VIA Fan said:


> Are the meals reheated in Amtrak Dining Cars actually microwaved or do they use a convection oven?
> 
> I can see perhaps a hamburger or pizza.......or is it just the misconception that if it's reheated....it must have been 'nuked'?



I believe the flex meals are re-heated in an airline style convection oven. 

They appear and taste like microwave meals. 

I believe many of the dining car specials from the past such as the lamb shank and Beecher’s Cheese Pasta were also reheated in a convection oven and they were excellent.


----------



## zephyr17 (May 28, 2021)

That lamb shank was wonderful.


----------



## Asher (May 28, 2021)

I haven’t traveled on Amtrak since 2014 seems like yesterday, time slips away rather quickly. All of my past LD trips have been an experience I’ve always looked forward to, including the dining car. Whatever generation type food is served is no issue, I’m pretty adaptable on that front. Edible food and courteous service has always been the norm and greatly appreciated. 
If Amtrak wants to promote one and done customers they’re on the right track.


----------



## OBS (May 28, 2021)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I believe the flex meals are re-heated in an airline style convection oven.
> 
> They appear and taste like microwave meals.
> 
> I believe many of the dining car specials from the past such as the lamb shank and Beecher’s Cheese Pasta were also reheated in a convection oven and they were excellent.


The flex meals are issued to the trains in those plastic dishes and then microwaved. They wouldn't stand up in convection oven, and the LSA doesn't have the time to be convection cooking and plating all those meals along with all the other duties....


----------



## me_little_me (May 28, 2021)

OBS said:


> The flex meals are issued to the trains in those plastic dishes and then microwaved. They wouldn't stand up in convection oven, and the LSA doesn't have the time to be convection cooking and plating all those meals along with all the other duties....


And putting those packaged Egg McHorribles served for breakfast would not work as my experience from flex a year and a half ago was that they were still in the plastic package when given to me.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (May 28, 2021)

OBS said:


> The flex meals are issued to the trains in those plastic dishes and then microwaved. They wouldn't stand up in convection oven, and the LSA doesn't have the time to be convection cooking and plating all those meals along with all the other duties....



Ok that actually makes more sense since they taste like microwaved frozen dinners and nothing like airline style convection oven meals.


----------



## cocojacoby (May 29, 2021)

*The Entrepreneurial Chef - A Radical Dining Car Concept*

Moved my post to it's own thread.


----------



## west point (May 29, 2021)

Maybe meals need to be rotated on a 5 day rotation. If Cardinal , Capitol, and LSL all served same meals on same day the connections in CHI would get a different set of meals on EB, Cal Z,, Chief, Eagle. Inbound to CHI and New Orleans same thing ?


----------



## TEREB (May 30, 2021)

west point said:


> Maybe meals need to be rotated on a 5 day rotation. If Cardinal , Capitol, and LSL all served same meals on same day the connections in CHI would get a different set of meals on EB, Cal Z,, Chief, Eagle. Inbound to CHI and New Orleans same thing ?


 I travel the Silvers. It would be nice if they had one menu for north bound and a different menu for south bound.


----------



## Sidney (May 30, 2021)

How about traditional dining on the Meteor? Charge a bit more. I'm sure passengers,a lot of them seniors, would appreciate the decent food.


----------



## Cal (May 30, 2021)

Sidney said:


> How about traditional dining on the Meteor? Charge a bit more. I'm sure passengers,a lot of them seniors, would appreciate the decent food.


How about traditional dining everywhere?


----------

