# Lake Shore/Capitol Limited Sleeping Car Menu Refresh 1/16/19



## MSP_Train_Hopper (Jan 15, 2019)

Looks like the new menus are posted. 4 choices for lunch/supper. 2-3 of them are hot (cant tell if the Asian noodle dish is served hot or cold). Breakfast has been completely reworked to include choice of cereals (hot & cold) as well as hard boiled eggs, a breakfast sandwich and 2 kinds of muffins. I am confused what is included for breakfast. All you can eat / all you can fit on one plate / one from each category / etc?

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Capitol-Limited-Sleeping-Car-Menu-0119.pdf


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 15, 2019)

In application of the Possible improvements to LSL/CL Dining thread, the new contemporary dining car menu has been loaded on the website. 

Lake Shore Limited/ Capitol Limited Sleeping Car Menu

It is the same menu for both trains.  The cafe car menu has also been updated much like before, I having trouble finding a public reference.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 15, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> What happened to the coloring book? I hope this is a misprint and it was left out by mistake!!! :wacko:


I still don't see the coloring book.  They swapped a hot breakfast sandwich for a coloring book? This hardly seems fair! ^_^


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## cpotisch (Jan 15, 2019)

MSP_Train_Hopper said:


> Looks like the new menus are posted. 4 choices for lunch/supper. 2-3 of them are hot (cant tell if the Asian noodle dish is served hot or cold). Breakfast has been completely reworked to include choice of cereals (hot & cold) as well as hard boiled eggs, a breakfast sandwich and 2 kinds of muffins. I am confused what is included for breakfast. All you can eat / all you can fit on one plate / one from each category / etc?
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Capitol-Limited-Sleeping-Car-Menu-0119.pdf


Definitely an improvement, though I do have similar questions as you about the breakfast arrangement. From what I'm seeing, for the vegan/vegetarian "Asian Noodle Bowl", they literally just took the "Asian Shrimp Noodle Bowl" served on the Cardinal, but got rid of the shrimp. Looks tasty enough, though. I wonder if I can get the Breakfast Sandwich without the ham...


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## pennyk (Jan 15, 2019)

Do you know if the full actual ingredients of these new meal options will be posted on-line or in the sleeper lounges?


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 15, 2019)

The only thing I'm seeing is a description of the new entrees with allergen alerts and the usual nutritional facts.

I don't see anything listed for the new breakfast items.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 15, 2019)

Now that is a decent looking menu offering, especially for breakfast.  I am assuming the Chicken, Beef and Noodle supper options are hot entrees...?


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## AmtrakBlue (Jan 15, 2019)

I don’t see milk under beverages, but assume they have it if they’re offering cold cereal.


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## VTTrain (Jan 15, 2019)

I wish that the Asian noodle bowl had an option to add chicken.  Also, two pasta dishes is a bit much.  But it’s an improvement, for sure.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 15, 2019)

Looks like the free half bottle of wine (375ml) has become a free single serving bottle (187.5ml).


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## pennyk (Jan 15, 2019)

PRR 60 said:


> Looks like the free half bottle of wine (375ml) has become a free single serving bottle (187.5ml).


I noticed that immediately.


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## PVD (Jan 15, 2019)

The Asian Noodle Bowl is the vegan selection, the other pasta does have chicken... having it as an option for the Asian Bowl would mean keeping a separate supply, heating it, and adding it to the entree... Although it would be something I'd probably order, I could see why they want to avoid it.


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## VTTrain (Jan 15, 2019)

PRR 60 said:


> Looks like the free half bottle of wine (375ml) has become a free single serving bottle (187.5ml).


Where do you see that?  I must be blind.


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## Ryan (Jan 15, 2019)

Look at the prices.  You're not getting a half bottle of wine for $8.50.


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## Ryan (Jan 15, 2019)

Go look at the cafe car menu:


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## VTTrain (Jan 15, 2019)

Ryan said:


> Go look at the cafe car menu:
> 
> View attachment 12169


Ah, I hadn’t looked at the Cafe Car menu.  Just the dining menu.  

Well, they do say that the first drink is on them - not the first two drinks.   :lol:


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## glensfallsse (Jan 16, 2019)

When does the new menu start? This thread says 1/19; and earlier post had suggested Wednesday. I'm on the LSL Thursday, Albany to Chicago.


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## OBS (Jan 16, 2019)

PRR 60 said:


> Looks like the free half bottle of wine (375ml) has become a free single serving bottle (187.5ml).


That didn't last long...LOL


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## OBS (Jan 16, 2019)

glensfallsse said:


> When does the new menu start? This thread says 1/19; and earlier post had suggested Wednesday. I'm on the LSL Thursday, Albany to Chicago.


I'm sure 1/19 is now the official start date


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## cocojacoby (Jan 16, 2019)

Why didn't they just start with this instead of the stupid cold menu?  Were they forced to make changes due to passenger complaints?


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

Are complimentary soft drinks throughout the journey offered to sleeper car passengers on other trains, or is this a benefit offered only to passengers on trains that have the "contemporary dining" menu?

If it is just for passengers on the contemporary dining trains, it's actually a pretty decent perk.  I very rarely have an alcoholic beverage, and doubt that I would want one on the train, so that perk isn't anything special for me, but it's another nice perk overall.

I still wish that there was more than one hot entree that was NOT pasta.  For those of us trying to watch our carb intake, there is really just one hot meal choice.  But, fortunately, this menu is only featured on trains that are one night in duration, so it's not a huge deal.

It's nice to see that Amtrak listened to passenger feedback.  This menu isn't as good as a real dining car's menu, but at least it is a step in the right direction.


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## cpotisch (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> I wish that the Asian noodle bowl had an option to add chicken.  Also, two pasta dishes is a bit much.  But it’s an improvement, for sure.


The whole premise of this is that they’re not putting stuff together onboard. So why would they have that option to add chicken to the one and only vegetarian option, when you also have a chicken and pasta dish? Considering I’ve been complaining for eight months about the lack of a decent vegetarian option, to be honest it kind of irks me for someone to be complaining about the inability to add meat to it.


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Considering I’ve been complaining for eight months about the lack of a decent vegetarian option, to be honest it kind of irks me for someone to be complaining about the inability to add meat to it.


Why would it bother you if BOTH vegetarians and meat eaters are made to be happy?  Good customer service means making the maximum number of people happy.  It's really that simple.  I was under the impression that we all wanted Amtrak to offer the best customer service possible.  And personally, I am happy when the maximum number of people are made happy.  I've never seen that as something to be "irked" about.  Not everything in life needs to be made into some sort of competition.

I haven't suggested that anyone has to put things together on board.  All Amtrak would need is a few small trays of chicken breast that get heated along with everything else in the convection oven.  The passengers that want to add chicken to the noodle bowl could be given a tray of chicken breast and add it themselves.  Not hard at all.  Super easy, actually.  And lots of happy people - both vegetarians and meat eaters.


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## cpotisch (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> Are complimentary soft drinks throughout the journey offered to sleeper car passengers on other trains, or is this a benefit offered only to passengers on trains that have the "contemporary dining" menu?


It’s exclusive to the Late Shore and Capitol Punishment.



cocojacoby said:


> Why didn't they just start with this instead of the stupid cold menu?  Were they forced to make changes due to passenger complaints?


Seems like it. I imagine this costs a fair bit more to run than the original “contemporary” system, so the seemingly significant backlash to that probably forced them to make these changes.


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## Ryan (Jan 16, 2019)

I think you put far too much stock in how much Amtrak pays attention to complaining on Internet forums.


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

Ryan said:


> I think you put far too much stock in how much Amtrak pays attention to complaining on Internet forums.


It wouldn't surprise me if customers were giving the attendants an earful - especially if they didn't know about the chance until they were given a menu.


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## TinCan782 (Jan 16, 2019)

OBS said:


> I'm sure 1/19 is now the official start date


The "0119" in the file name is the month and year, not the day 19. This follows Amtrak's convention for naming other menus.

Capitol-Limited-Sleeping-Car-Menu-0119.pdf﻿

Where did the 19th of January come from? Just wondering...doesn't make a difference to me as my next trip on the LSL not until next fall.


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## Ryan (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if customers were giving the attendants an earful - especially if they didn't know about the chance until they were given a menu.


Customers were notified of the change, and the feedback from people that have actually experienced his has been mixed.  While some probably did give an earful, the whining and complaining of Internet Railroaders is not representative of actual customer feedback.

We've also known all along that this was something of a trial, and that Amtrak would be further tweaking things.  Adding hot meals as equipment modifications required to do so are completed makes more sense than the angry mob theory.


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## PVD (Jan 16, 2019)

From the very start of the project, they solicited feedback from actual passengers, using both e-mailed surveys, and people on board "interviewing" riders. I sat with a manager on the CL and was given the opportunity to comment on what was offered, and how it might be improved. I suspect the opinions of current passengers carry somewhat more weight than the cries from the peanut gallery.  Lots of companies do pay some attention to their social media presence, but in this case they worked pretty hard at collecting info directly from the most important cohort.


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

Ryan said:


> the feedback from people that have actually experienced his has been mixed.


Interesting.  Are you privy to Amtrak's internal information?  I'm surprised that the change would result in a generally "mixed" reaction.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  I am just curious as to your source.


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## cpotisch (Jan 16, 2019)

Ryan said:


> I think you put far too much stock in how much Amtrak pays attention to complaining on Internet forums.


Obviously they could care less about angry rants on AU. But I do think that the many letters and complaints that have been sent to Anderson and the board, may have had an actual effect. Fundamentally, there is no way of knowing, but I imagine they made these changes for a reason.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 16, 2019)

Around half of the peanut gallery participants seemed to be neutral or even pro-change by my memory.  Some of them even called for the new boxed lunch menu to be brought to most/all trains before trying it.  The people who actually tried these meals seemed to have a mixed reaction bordering on thankful just to have any food at all.


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## cpotisch (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> Interesting.  Are you privy to Amtrak's internal information?  I'm surprised that the change would result in a generally "mixed" reaction.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  I am just curious as to your source.


I think he’s talking about the general stances of AU members. Many people here have said that they support “contemporary dining”, with their main points being that the meals are actually of a pretty high quality, that the unlimited soft drinks and free hard drink are an improvement, and that the breakfast box is pretty fresh/tasty and very filling. I definitely disagree that it’s an improvement as do plenty of other members (seems like it’s probably roughly 25/75 for/against it), but [email protected][/USER] is definitely correct that reception here has been pretty mixed.


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I think he’s talking about the general stances of AU members.


I don't think so.  Here is what he said, "the whining and complaining of Internet Railroaders is not representative of actual customer feedback."  (emphasis mine)


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## PVD (Jan 16, 2019)

Keep in mind that there were separate issues presented. Lack of choices, particularly at breakfast, inability of coach passengers to participate, no hot entrees, and diminution of the whole dining experience were common points. There were certainly people who didn't have a problem with one or more of those, as well as people who liked the inclusion of an alcoholic beverage.  Notwithstanding how we got there, is there now consensus that we have taken a major step in addressing the most important concerns of the sleeper passengers?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 16, 2019)

Having done a bit more investigating I can now sympathize with the disheartened wine drinkers. 

Calling a canned drink a cocktail is an insult to proper alcoholics everywhere.










If that's the direction we're going we may as well break out the tailgate tallboys.






At least we still have a Tito taster and a Maker mini...for now.


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Having done a bit more investigating I can now sympathize with the disheartened wine drinkers.
> 
> Calling a canned drink a cocktail is an insult to proper alcoholics everywhere.


To make matters worse, Amtrak's retail price is $10.  In the store a four-pack sells for $12.99.

As much as my brain wants to tell me that this is wrong, I am struggling to see why this canned beverage is any worse than a canned mixer combined with alcohol on-site.  I have one or two drinks a month, so I am far from an expert on this.


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## PVD (Jan 16, 2019)

Just to help clear up a point from a few posts back, when the change was first made, Amtrak did send e-mails to passengers who would be affected by the transition. I was notified in advance for my LSL and CL legs that I had scheduled prior to the change that were going to take place after the transition. I would guess that is no longer taking place (or reasonably req'd) since the system has been in place quite a while and should not be a surprise to anyone.


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## jebr (Jan 16, 2019)

Assuming the breakfast menu allows for multiple items from the menu (for example, I can get a sandwich with yogurt and cereal) I think it's pretty close to what I'd envision for a decent meal service in this style. I was fine overall with the delivery style and the quality of the entrees on the Lake Shore and Capitol this past September/October, and being able to get some dinner going into NYC on the Lake Shore was a definite bonus. I still think the ability to pre-order from a larger selection of entrees and/or doing a more regular rotation of entrees (maybe every two weeks like on the Acela) would help with adding more variety to the menu.

I can half-see the reason for pre-mixed beverages if you're wanting to not have to stock both gin and tonic water, but with ginger ale being stocked already, it seems easier to just stock rum onboard versus having a specialized drink just for rum and ginger. That'd also allow options such as rum and Pepsi or with people to have their own mixer to go with it. Of course, that could be said for gin as well, but at least there's some small justification for it.


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## lordsigma (Jan 16, 2019)

press release: https://media.amtrak.com/2019/01/contemporary-dining-improvements-on-two-amtrak-routes/


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## PVD (Jan 16, 2019)

Accounting and inventory control is easier with pre mixes.


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

PVD said:


> Amtrak did send e-mails to passengers who would be affected by the transition.


I applaud their being proactive about the changes.


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## PVD (Jan 16, 2019)

At that time, it was a radical change, and I have to admit that if I was not aware in advance, I might have taken it out on the wrong people. I was particularly happy that a manager rode the CL, which was on my return trip, and she spent a good bit of time, individually, doing detailed interviews about the new service and what we as passengers, felt might make it better.


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## dlagrua (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> I applaud their being proactive about the changes.



Lunch & Dinner, hot items: Chicken Penne Alfredo, Beef Provencal, Asian Noodle Bowl; chilled item: Antipasto Plate


Deluxe Continental Breakfast, hot items: Oatmeal, Breakfast sandwich; chilled items: Muffins, Yogurt, Fresh Fruit, Hard-boiled eggs, cereals

An improvement but at lunch and dinner I try to avoid red meats, high fat  and high carbs. It looks like the items that I try to avoid but I guess not much Amtrak  food was ever healthy.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 16, 2019)

Canned cocktails are generally made with lower quality ingredients and suffer the same adverse reactions as canned beer.  I cannot tell you the details of what specifically happens during/after the canning process or why, I just know it tastes terrible to me.  Here in the US many canned cocktails are nothing but malt liquor trying to imitate a distilled spirit.


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## lordsigma (Jan 16, 2019)

I am encouraged to see they spoke to passengers about this and made improvements. The dinner entree offering seems on par with the Cardinal and the pre-contemporary Lake Shore (obviously we still don't have the traditional table service, table cloths, and some lunch and breakfast items.)

I guess if they were considering further improvements one final improvement I'd like to see would be the addition of some lighter lunch offerings possibly even just a couple of the cafe offerings such as angus burger, turkey sandwich, etc. Sure we can go to the cafe to get these but for the cost of the sleeper it would be nice to have a couple of these available in the "private dining car."


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

dlagrua said:


> An improvement but at lunch and dinner I try to avoid red meats, high fat  and high carbs.


That's my only gripe.  It would have been nice if the chicken dish was a lower fat, healthier option rather than a carb and fat loaded pasta dish - especially when there is already another pasta dish on the menu.  But since I am only taking the LSL one time this year it's not that big of a deal in the long run.


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## amtrakpass (Jan 16, 2019)

Still not available to coach passengers at all?


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

amtrakpass said:


> Still not available to coach passengers at all?


Since there are no prices listed it doesn't look like it.


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## lordsigma (Jan 16, 2019)

Press release states that meals can be delivered to room or eaten in the “private dining car.” So I’m guessing no coach.


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## pennyk (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> Interesting.  Are you privy to Amtrak's internal information?  I'm surprised that the change would result in a generally "mixed" reaction.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  I am just curious as to your source.


Ryan's information is consistent with the feedback received by RPA (f/k/a NARP).


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## keelhauled (Jan 16, 2019)

I wonder if they are still served in boxes. It seemed that a not insignificant part of the initial reaction to the change was the image of boxed vs. plated food. 

I think it’s a pity they didn’t keep the chicken salad option; it would have been a good alternative to the heavier, for lack of a better word, hot options they have now.


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## Ryan (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> Interesting.  Are you privy to Amtrak's internal information?  I'm surprised that the change would result in a generally "mixed" reaction.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  I am just curious as to your source.






cpotisch said:


> I think he’s talking about the general stances of AU members. Many people here have said that they support “contemporary dining”, with their main points being that the meals are actually of a pretty high quality, that the unlimited soft drinks and free hard drink are an improvement, and that the breakfast box is pretty fresh/tasty and very filling. I definitely disagree that it’s an improvement as do plenty of other members (seems like it’s probably roughly 25/75 for/against it), but [email protected][/USER] is definitely correct that reception here has been pretty mixed.






VTTrain said:


> I don't think so.  Here is what he said, "the whining and complaining of Internet Railroaders is not representative of actual customer feedback."  (emphasis mine)




You are correct to pick up on "actual customer" - if you pay attention here to people that have actually consumed the meals, you get a much more even handed assessment.  I also run a 17,xxx member Facebook Group that provided a decent number of reviews of the meals after they actually began being served.  Again, the feedback was mixed, and not the torches and pitchforks of the AU forum mob.  It's also interesting that the complaints of actual customers (mostly centering around more hot choices and something other than sugar and carbs for breakfast) have been addressed, while the loud fringe's complaints ("real" dining car meals prepared by a chef or bust!) have gone ignored.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 16, 2019)

Only listening to the people who rode the train sounds rational at first but it also comes with a rather glaring blind spot.  The people who were turned off by the new menu and either canceled their plans or found other means of travel will end up being ignored and potentially lost forever.  In addition, by only listening to the people who rode these specific trains you're missing out on the views of people who currently ride other trains but would be prone to abandoning them if contemporary boxed lunches are expanded to other routes as well.  Nothing in this menu really appeals to me.  I could probably make do on a day trip but over multiple days this menu would be unsuitable for my needs.  I tend to fly at least one leg of every trip so the usual response of bringing all my food and drinks with me is often impractical.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 16, 2019)

FrensicPic said:


> ﻿
> 
> Where did the 19th of January come from? Just wondering...doesn't make a difference to me as my next trip on the LSL not until next fall.


Me. I started this thread while updating the other. The cafe refresh was supposed to take effect on the nineteenth. When I edited the title, I mistakenly merged the two ideas. The cafe is the nineteenth, the dining menu is the sixteenth.



VTTrain said:


> Why would it bother you if BOTH vegetarians and meat eaters are made to be happy?  Good customer service means making the maximum number of people happy.  It's really that simple.  I was under the impression that we all wanted Amtrak to offer the best customer service possible.  And personally, I am happy when the maximum number of people are made happy.  I've never seen that as something to be "irked" about.  Not everything in life needs to be made into some sort of competition.
> 
> I haven't suggested that anyone has to put things together on board.  All Amtrak would need is a few small trays of chicken breast that get heated along with everything else in the convection oven.  The passengers that want to add chicken to the noodle bowl could be given a tray of chicken breast and add it themselves.  Not hard at all.  Super easy, actually.  And lots of happy people - both vegetarians and meat eaters.


The reality of the situation is there are costs and concerns. While the application may be "super easy," the whole idea of the contemporary menu is to simplify components, reduce the risk of spoilage, waste and eliminate costs.  Believe me when I say they are  watching these hot entrees like a hawk. 



keelhauled said:


> I wonder if they are still served in boxes. It seemed that a not insignificant part of the initial reaction to the change was the image of boxed vs. plated food.


The continental breakfast will not be served in a box, which is what made me think the start up  may be a little rough as the LSA and SCA will likely need to get used to the new routine.


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## VTTrain (Jan 16, 2019)

I'm really curious about how much you will be allowed to take at breakfast.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 16, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> I'm really curious about how much you will be allowed to take at breakfast.


With the continental breakfast, you'll pretty much serve yourself. Partaking of the continental breakfast doesn't mean you can't order the breakfast sandwich, the yogurt etc. 

The "what if they want more and we're running out"  question is still left to the crew to figure out (naturally), but it supplies are available, you're supposed to eat up.

Personally, I hope you all clean house and  sincerely hope all of the hot entrees and anything else that can spoil is eaten first.


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## Ryan (Jan 16, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Only listening to the people who rode the train sounds rational at first but it also comes with a rather glaring blind spot.  The people who were turned off by the new menu and either canceled their plans or found other means of travel will end up being ignored and potentially lost forever.  In addition, by only listening to the people who rode these specific trains you're missing out on the views of people who currently ride other trains but would be prone to abandoning them if contemporary boxed lunches are expanded to other routes as well.  Nothing in this menu really appeals to me.  I could probably make do on a day trip but over multiple days this menu would be unsuitable for my needs.  I tend to fly at least one leg of every trip so the usual response of bringing all my food and drinks with me is often impractical.


In the context of evaluating the overall "success" of this, you're absolutely correct.

In the context of the comment I was replying to...



VTTrain said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if customers were giving the attendants an earful - especially if they didn't know about the chance until they were given a menu.


... they're not giving the attendants an earful if they're not on the train.


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## billl (Jan 16, 2019)

Wonder if Amtrak has any plans to change the Cardinal?  Pull off the diner-lite and its microwave fare, put on a V-II diner with the new "contemporary" menu.  Keep the AmCafe with the business class (or eliminate business class and just use the AmCafe as the lounge/cafe for coach passengers).  You are not adding additional equipment and having a V-II diner to be used as a lounge on this route would be a plus (at least for sleeper passengers).


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## pennyk (Jan 16, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I started this thread while updating the other. The cafe refresh was supposed to take effect on the nineteenth. When I edited the title, I mistakenly merged the two ideas. The cafe is the nineteenth, the dining menu is the sixteenth.


I changed the title to 1/16/19.  If this is not accurate, please let me know and I can change again.

Thanks for the information.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 16, 2019)

Everything except breakfast reminds me of a $3.00 Healthychoice frozen meal. Which isn’t far from the truth I’m sure (except the Healthy part). 

Great as long as we don’t see them on western trains. As it was on our recent Chi- Lax RT the food was fine but could have been improved definitely not downgraded to this though. If this is what RPA was so giddy about I’m not all that impressed. Step in right direction for sure. Let’s see what it looks like first hand


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## Anthony V (Jan 16, 2019)

While these improvements were needed, I still think that sleeper passengers should be offered optional vouchers for the café car if they don't like anything on the contemporary dining menu.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 16, 2019)

Anthony V said:


> While these improvements were needed, I still think that sleeper passengers should be offered optional vouchers for the café car if they don't like anything on the contemporary dining menu.


Ditto! This used to be the Policy on #448/#449 between Boston and Albany when Sleeping Car pax ate in the Cafe Car.


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## lordsigma (Jan 16, 2019)

Anthony V said:


> While these improvements were needed, I still think that sleeper passengers should be offered optional vouchers for the café car if they don't like anything on the contemporary dining menu.


Yes especially for lunch when you may not want the larger meal. Or simply add some of the cafe items to the menu as an alternative to the bigger entrees that you could just directly order from the LSA in the sleeper diner. (similar to what they will be doing with the breakfast sandwich)We are now essentially equivalent to the Cardinal as far as the entrees go. A lighter fare/lunch menu seems to be the thing still missing.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 16, 2019)

The The breakfast menu is a big improvement on this over what was before but the lunch and dinner menus still just need a basic sandwich like


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## Sauve850 (Jan 16, 2019)

Ryan said:


> Customers were notified of the change, and the feedback from people that have actually experienced his has been mixed.  While some probably did give an earful, the whining and complaining of Internet Railroaders is not representative of actual customer feedback.
> 
> We've also known all along that this was something of a trial, and that Amtrak would be further tweaking things.  Adding hot meals as equipment modifications required to do so are completed makes more sense than the angry mob theory.


I agree with your post(s). And the whining and complaining here gets so old with just the slightest changes before anyone has a chance to experience them.


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## tonijustine (Jan 16, 2019)

Devil said:


> Only listening to the people who rode the train sounds rational at first but it also comes with a rather glaring blind spot.  The people who were turned off by the new menu and either canceled their plans or found other means of travel will end up being ignored and potentially lost forever.  In addition, by only listening to the people who rode these specific trains you're missing out on the views of people who currently ride other trains but would be prone to abandoning them if contemporary boxed lunches are expanded to other routes as well.  Nothing in this menu really appeals to me.  I could probably make do on a day trip but over multiple days this menu would be unsuitable for my needs.  I tend to fly at least one leg of every trip so the usual response of bringing all my food and drinks with me is often impractical.


This assumes people understand that:
1. Dining options have changed, which initial implies that someone has either traveled this route before or are invested enough to actually research (I am the latter but I also admit I am odd...) and 
2. That is a driving concern.

I doubt that casual, first time customers know or care. It’s either railfans (who anticipate a certain experience) or Planny McPlannersons (technically I am both but this is my husband’s nickname for me) that even know there is a difference. I suspect that the number of people “turned off” is a small percentage of ridership.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 16, 2019)

All I know is the next time I ride the Capitol Punishment I'm getting a hot meal, prepared fresh by an on board chef to Baltimore & Ohio, and New York Central Railroad recipes. And that will be in April. 

The last time I was on the Late for Sure Limited I also had a hot meal by an on board chef. And that was last September.


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## cpotisch (Jan 16, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> All I know is the next time I ride the Capitol Punishment I'm getting a hot meal, prepared fresh by an on board chef to Baltimore & Ohio, and New York Central Railroad recipes. And that will be in April.
> 
> The last time I was on the Late for Sure Limited I also had a hot meal by an on board chef. And that was last September.


Sorry, your point is...?


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## Manny T (Jan 16, 2019)

Ryan said:


> I think you put far too much stock in how much Amtrak pays attention to complaining on Internet forums.


I know this: after taking the CL round-trip last month, in all my social media posts I mentioned how GREAT it was to receive the half bottle of wine (a $16 value!) with the dinner, and how GENEROUS Amtrak was to be offering it to sleeping car PAX at no charge.

Now, it's gone. So CLEARLY, Amtrak was paying attention.


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## cpotisch (Jan 16, 2019)

Manny T said:


> I know this: after taking the CL round-trip last month, in all my social media posts I mentioned how GREAT it was to receive the half bottle of wine (a $16 value!) with the dinner, and how GENEROUS Amtrak was to be offering it to sleeping car PAX at no charge.
> 
> Now, it's gone. So CLEARLY, Amtrak was paying attention.


Well, Amtrak is still being “GENEROUS” by offering free booze for sleeper pax, it’s just that the amount is half as “GREAT” as before. So, at least they didn’t get rid of the free wine altogether, though I suppose me saying this might have jinxed it...


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 16, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Sorry, your point is...?


Ride a private car when you can, particularly if the car is close to the cost of Amtrak's sleeper.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 16, 2019)

TR7 got it. Of course my price I pay is free because I work on them. The point was more to just rub it in.


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## neroden (Jan 16, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> Why didn't they just start with this instead of the stupid cold menu?  Were they forced to make changes due to passenger complaints?


Yes, I'm quite sure they were.

 I often travel in January and February.  This year, I was seeing substantially lower dining car patronage than normal at breakfast and the people who were there were complaining.  Actually, they were already complaining, and already there were fewer riders, with the "crippled dining car" service offered immediately before the "boxed food" service, but this was even worse.  The sequence of pointless downgrades has clearly hurt LSL sleeper ridership -- there were more empty roomettes than I'm used to seeing too.

This is at least an improvement rather than another downgrade.  They still haven't figured out what it says in the PIP -- half the dining car customers on the LSL were from coach -- and they really ought to be offering the food to coach passengers in some fashion, too.


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## neroden (Jan 16, 2019)

Ryan said:


> Customers were notified of the change, and the feedback from people that have actually experienced his has been mixed.  While some probably did give an earful, the whining and complaining of Internet Railroaders is not representative of actual customer feedback.
> 
> We've also known all along that this was something of a trial, and that Amtrak would be further tweaking things.  Adding hot meals as equipment modifications required to do so are completed makes more sense than the angry mob theory.


No, it doesn't, Ryan.

I ride this train regularly.  (The LSL.)  Pretty much an angry mob at every meal.  So the angry mob theory makes sense.

That said, the recent changes have addressed the actual complaints.  The extreme carb loading seemed to be the biggest and most consistent complaint, as well as the lack of breakfast options, and these two combined to create serious breakfast complaints.  The lack of hot meals was the smaller complaint.  The staff were doing their best by offering the dinner meals as breakfast options.

Pretty much nobody cared about the lack of on-board cooking or of tablecloths or of waiters, as far as I can tell.  So Amtrak has actually now addressed ALL the complaints of the angry mob.  People will probably settle down, since the genuinely common complaints seem to have been addressed.  It still seems dumb to me that Amtrak management didn't *expect* those complaints, since they were obvious in advance to me, and I'm no expert.  But it's fixed now.

The coach passengers who aren't eating in the dining car won't complain -- because the cafe car menu was massively improved, addressing a complaint which has been recurring for several decades.  I still think Amtrak would get more money if they offered coach customers a "meal pass" for purchase, but nobody will *complain*.


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## neroden (Jan 16, 2019)

pennyk said:


> Ryan's information is consistent with the feedback received by RPA (f/k/a NARP).


Citation please.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Me. I started this thread while updating the other. The cafe refresh was supposed to take effect on the nineteenth. When I edited the title, I mistakenly merged the two ideas. The cafe is the nineteenth, the dining menu is the sixteenth.


*Eek*  There's a cafe refresh happening too?  Here's hoping it's not another downgrade...

I'm very fond of the current "new" (as of mid-2018) cafe menu, which actually provided a decent selection of options for the first time.  (And I have purchased an average of four boiled eggs per trip, already, and a salad on every trip as well.)  I hope the cafe refresh is an upgrade and not another downgrade.


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## neroden (Jan 16, 2019)

pennyk said:


> Ryan's information is consistent with the feedback received by RPA (f/k/a NARP).


I assume that's based on inside information, so you have no citation?

I'm in the group who doesn't care about "traditional" dining car service and theoretically happy with boxed meals, but also found the initial deployment to be totally unacceptable in lack of suitable food selections.  Was this documented in the RPA feedback?


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## bratkinson (Jan 16, 2019)

How many of us on this forum have a clear memory of what full dining car service was like in the 50s?  Or even the 60s?  It was 'first class' at it's finest.  Real silverware, real china with a railroad and even train specific pattern, and a multitude of types of dishes from dinner plates to relish plates, and even finger bowls.  Of course, this included perfectly washed and pressed table cloths, napkins, and real sugar bowls and small pitchers of cream.  There were typically 8-10 entrees on each of the three daily menus and often, local or route specific specialties such as trout on the menu.   All this was served by a staff of 3-4 waiters and head waiter/maitre'd, all impeccably dressed in starched white jackets and black pants.  There were 3 or 4 in the kitchen as well.  To get that kind of service today at a brick and mortar restaurant you're looking at $80 and up per meal.  Higher in New York City.

So who wants to pay $80 for a meal on a train that's served like 'the good ol' days'?  That not-filet-mignon steak dinner served on todays Amtrak LD trains, if served with all the bells and whistles of 1950s diner cars would likely be in the $80 range as well.  Remember, too, that back then, labor was cheap and tools, stoves, cars were comparatively expensive.  Today it's the opposite.  A decent living wage for an LSA is likely $30/hr, plus another $20/hr in benefits...maybe more considering Railroad Retirement Tier 2 'added taxes' is also matched by the RR.  (As an aside...Railroad Retirement Tier 1 is identical to Social Security in percentages taken and payouts, Tier 2 is essentially an RR-matched 'pension fund' that when paid out in retirement, is based on highest pay rate x some percentage x number of years worked under Railroad Retirement)

In short, there's no way John Q Public is willing to pay $45 for breakfast and $85-100 for dinner on a train.  For what it's worth, Ed Ellis tried to revive the 1950s train travel with a complete Pullman experience including meals...at $1500-2000 per person for one night.   Between fully restored (not redesigned/modern style) 1950s Pullman cars and uniformed staff and first class dinners, I suspect most buyers/riders were less than thrilled to be in a cramped, genuine 1950-style bedroom and rough IC/CN track CHI-NOL and did not do the trip a second time.

And though there are still a dwindling number of us old timers that can remember those great days of train travel, the bulk of what I see on NEC trains is largely 20-60 year old people, mostly business employees.  On LD trains, the number of 20-60 year olds surpassed the number of 60+ year olds at least 20 years ago...even in sleepers. 

So, it comes down to pleasing the 20-60 year old long distance travelers, many of whom appear to have limited funds for traveling.  How can Amtrak attract those passengers, especially for a second, third, or tenth time?  Whether they're vacationers going to major destinations or small town dwellers on their way to/from Podunk, MT, how can they be convinced/lured/'sold' on making additional trips on Amtrak?  First and foremost, don't 'break the bank' in charging for tickets.  In most LD markets, Amtrak is competing with everything from Megabus to Greyhound to discount airlines.  By the way...how many 'full service' airlines are 'doing well' these days?  Most have cut services to the bone and charge for everything!  Amtrak has to price its travel options to be competitive with other travel options, including driving.  Priced too high, passengers don't come back.  Priced too low?  Congress is on their back extra heavy to become  'profitable'. 

So, Amtrak has no choice, really, to become 'bare bones' food service.  How many 'frills' are included with dinner at McDonalds or Ruby Tuesday?   Now limit the cost of what's being served due to higher labor costs ($50/hr vs $10-12/hr for restaurant wait staff) as well as added maintenance costs due to the restaurant traveling 100,000 miles per year.  

I agree that $12 for a hamburger with chips and pickle is a bit high.  But compare that to a Big Mac and fries for about $8.  I prefer the diner-cooked burgers to McDonalds any time.  Even the burger on the Cardinal tastes better than a quarter pounder in my opinion.  

Consider the 'market' for what's being served on the train these days.  Satisfying various 'tastes' from vegan to kosher as well as 'real meat' people like myself is a menu creators' nightmare.  Keeping costs low is even more so.  But if it satisfies the 20-60 YO passengers, then it's a good choice.  However, based on the new menu, I don't think I'll partake of contemporary dining anytime soon.  I'll just keep walking through and get my food in the lounge car.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 17, 2019)

When you think the Capitol Limited in the late 60s was known for its phenomenal meal service because the C&O/B&O kept the trains up till the bitter end. And now it has come to this garbage we have today. I'm looking forward to meeting the man responsible for keeping the standards this year. Funny he was also the president of Amtrak at one time.


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## Ryan (Jan 17, 2019)

neroden said:


> No, it doesn't, Ryan.
> 
> I ride this train regularly.  (The LSL.)  Pretty much an angry mob at every meal.  So the angry mob theory makes sense.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure how you can start a post disagreeing with me, and then go on to make the exact same points that I did, but whatever works for you.

It’s clear that the complaints of people that actually experienced the service was addressed.  

It’s equally clear that feedback from those actual riders was mixed, and some thought the meals to be good, and even an improvement over what came before them.

It’s equally clear that the complaints related to traditional dining by the Internet Complainers (which is what I meant by the “angry mob”), were not addressed.  You also stated that “nobody cared about the lack of on-board cooking or of tablecloths or of waiters, as far as I can tell.”

Seems like we’re in full agreement.


----------



## Triley (Jan 17, 2019)

Ryan said:


> ... they're not giving the attendants an earful if they're not on the train. [emoji6]


I've had two trips on the Builder so far and I've had at least 3 people be very vocal about the LSL/CL meals...


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## JRR (Jan 17, 2019)

I have been on the CL only once and talked to crew about the “fresh” choices. The crew wasn’t happy about the change from traditional dining and encouraged us to make an adverse report. They also all expressed concern that this would be the model going forward on all trains. 

The new menu looks to be an improvement over what they started with but falls far short of what traditional dining is or could be, in my opinion.


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## Skyline (Jan 17, 2019)

Ryan said:


> I think you put far too much stock in how much Amtrak pays attention to complaining on Internet forums.


Perhaps, but the bean counters can establish a timeline starting when the cold menu went into effect, and the corresponding drop in pax. Matched with complaints by actual pax, which includes at least some of us  who frequent internet forums. Amtrak didn't upgrade "fresh and contemporary" to something more like a traditional diner because a ouija board told them to.


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## glensfallsse (Jan 17, 2019)

Currently on the LSL in Albany. Had dinner off the  new menu while waiting for the Boston section to limp in. Got the beef. I thought it was good, but I’m not a picky eater. A step up from what they had before anyway. Breakfast will be the real test.


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## VTTrain (Jan 17, 2019)

Thanks for the update!


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## Steve4031 (Jan 17, 2019)

The The breakfast menu is a big improvement on this over what was before but the lunch and dinner menus still just need a basic sandwich like


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## Steve4031 (Jan 17, 2019)

I have not been able to find the new caffe menu.  Is there a separate link?


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## pennyk (Jan 17, 2019)

Steve4031 said:


> I have not been able to find the new caffe menu.  Is there a separate link?


I came across this link on Facebook.  I have no idea if this is really the new cafe menu.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Capitol-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0119.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0AqT2ILPbssr_rbG_2C48KBezfruOod60Vq8mAmCrh11SedcfjLB0kuyM


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## TinCan782 (Jan 17, 2019)

pennyk said:


> I came across this link on Facebook.  I have no idea if this is really the new cafe menu.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Capitol-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0119.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0AqT2ILPbssr_rbG_2C48KBezfruOod60Vq8mAmCrh11SedcfjLB0kuyM


Its dated "0119"

Capitol-Limited-Cafe-Menu-*0119*.pdf


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## jis (Jan 18, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> TR7 got it. Of course my price I pay is free because I work on them. The point was more to just rub it in.


So the moral of the story is "work for a PV" :lol:


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 18, 2019)

jis said:


> So the moral of the story is "work for a PV" :lol:


it's not a particularly high paying gig. pretty cool benefits though.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 18, 2019)

Looking at the menu... I notice the Gluten Free symbol on breakfast items but none on any of the lunch/ dinner entrees.  Since they are seemingly aware that Gluten Free people ride the train, seems odd that none of the meals are gluten free.

While Breakfast had nowhere to go but up, this is a nice improvement.  I feel like Amtrak is still missing the "VARIETY" part of the entrees. We went from all salads to all hot entrees didn't we?   Well... the antipasto plate is still there with a side salad.. so I guess that's kind of a salad option.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 18, 2019)

pennyk said:


> I came across this link on Facebook.  I have no idea if this is really the new cafe menu.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Capitol-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0119.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0AqT2ILPbssr_rbG_2C48KBezfruOod60Vq8mAmCrh11SedcfjLB0kuyM


Penny,

it is.  Another poster confirmed. I noticed the addition of the tavern ham sandwich.  I’ll eat breakfast in the diner, and lunch in the cafe car.  

Thank you.


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## VTTrain (Jan 18, 2019)

Is the cafe vegan noodle bowl the same as the one in the dining car?


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## cocojacoby (Jan 18, 2019)

glensfallsse said:


> Currently on the LSL in Albany. Had dinner off the  new menu while waiting for the Boston section to limp in. Got the beef. I thought it was good, but I’m not a picky eater. A step up from what they had before anyway. Breakfast will be the real test.


Was the engine cut off (assuming the Boston section is at the front once it's attached)?  Just verifying if the new diners have back-up battery power.  Spent many dinners in the dark and cold in D.C. during the Meteor engine change southbound.  Some crews gave us glow sticks.

I think they also lost a diner seating due to the engine change at D.C. on the Meteor so the new diners may be more efficient but then again I don't know if the ovens will work on battery power.


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## keelhauled (Jan 18, 2019)

pennyk said:


> I came across this link on Facebook.  I have no idea if this is really the new cafe menu.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Capitol-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0119.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0AqT2ILPbssr_rbG_2C48KBezfruOod60Vq8mAmCrh11SedcfjLB0kuyM


It is definitely the new menu; it is now live.  Apparently they blew the graphic design budget on the diner menu.


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## glensfallsse (Jan 18, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> Was the engine cut off (assuming the Boston section is at the front once it's attached)?  Just verifying if the new diners have back-up battery power.  Spent many dinners in the dark and cold in D.C. during the Meteor engine change southbound.  Some crews gave us glow sticks.
> 
> I think they also lost a diner seating due to the engine change at D.C. on the Meteor so the new diners may be more efficient but then again I don't know if the ovens will work on battery power.


An engine was connected the whole time so we had power


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## glensfallsse (Jan 18, 2019)

Just had breakfast. There was an array of continental breakfast items on a couple of tables to take from, or you could get a hot sandwich (egg, ham, cheese sort of thing) or fruit. 

As I said before, I’m not a picky eater — Waffle House is a big night out for me — so I was fine with this. However, I would not be happy with this arrangement on a two-night train ride.


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## VTTrain (Jan 18, 2019)

Someone else has confirmed that the breakfast sandwich is microwaved to order. The prepared fruit is also kept behind the counter and must be requested.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 18, 2019)

glensfallsse said:


> Just had breakfast. There was an array of continental breakfast items on a couple of tables to take from, *or* you could get a hot sandwich (egg, ham, cheese sort of thing) *or* fruit.  As I said before, I’m not a picky eater — Waffle House is a big night out for me — so I was fine with this. However, I would not be happy with this arrangement on a two-night train ride.


Just out of curiosity, are those "or's" non-negotiable dividers or do they offer to mix and match between the three?


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## VTTrain (Jan 18, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Just out of curiosity, are those "or's" non-negotiable dividers or do they offer to mix and match between the three?


From the photos I have seen, you are allowed to mix and match.


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## glensfallsse (Jan 18, 2019)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Just out of curiosity, are those "or's" non-negotiable dividers or do they offer to mix and match between the three?


I got the hot sandwich AND the fruit. My impression was you could mix in other stuff but I don’t know that for sure.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 18, 2019)

Sounds reasonable for a one-off day trip.  I wouldn't want to see this on any of the major Western routes and I would get tired of it quickly if I rode the CL or LSL on a regular basis, but at least it's moderately workable in a pinch.  Seems better than what happened to the Star, although at least in that case you get the benefit of substantially lower fares.


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## PerRock (Jan 18, 2019)

pennyk said:


> I came across this link on Facebook.  I have no idea if this is really the new cafe menu.
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Capitol-Limited-Cafe-Menu-0119.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0AqT2ILPbssr_rbG_2C48KBezfruOod60Vq8mAmCrh11SedcfjLB0kuyM




Aw yeees, the Cup of Noodle is back! Best meal on the train for a budget-conscious traveler.

peter


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## cpotisch (Jan 18, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> Was the engine cut off (assuming the Boston section is at the front once it's attached)?  Just verifying if the new diners have back-up battery power.  Spent many dinners in the dark and cold in D.C. during the Meteor engine change southbound.  Some crews gave us glow sticks.
> 
> I think they also lost a diner seating due to the engine change at D.C. on the Meteor so the new diners may be more efficient but then again I don't know if the ovens will work on battery power.


The Viewliner II diners used as "Sleeper Lounges" on the LSL are the exact same as those on the Meteor. And I'm pretty sure they do have backup power.


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## cpotisch (Jan 18, 2019)

PerRock said:


> Aw yeees, the Cup of Noodle is back! Best meal on the train for a budget-conscious traveler.
> 
> peter


Also the best meal in my house at the moment. ^_^


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## Manny T (Jan 18, 2019)

Does anyone remember the story about the farmer who asked the wise man, "Sir, my house is way too small for my wife, my 7 children, and my in-laws. I can't stand it. What should I do?" The wise man said, "Bring all your animals into the house, your pigs, goats, sheep, and chickens." The farmer did it and then returned to the wise man and said, "Sir, the situation is absolutely terrible. I can stand it! What should I do?" The wise man replied, "Take all the animals out of the house." The farmer did it, returned to the wise man and said, "Oh thank you sir for your advice. My life is wonderful now."

Looks like this is what Amtrak did. They reduced food service on the CL/LSL to absolutely rotten levels that many could not tolerate, and some bolted just to avoid (some were fine with it). Then they improved it a little, TV dinners for lunch and dinner, more breakfast choices (but it's still not made-to-order French Toast quality) -- and people are applauding. Isn't life wonderful!


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## cpotisch (Jan 18, 2019)

Manny T said:


> Does anyone remember the story about the farmer who asked the wise man, "Sir, my house is way too small for my wife, my 7 children, and my in-laws. I can't stand it. What should I do?" The wise man said, "Bring all your animals into the house, your pigs, goats, sheep, and chickens." The farmer did it and then returned to the wise man and said, "Sir, the situation is absolutely terrible. I can stand it! What should I do?" The wise man replied, "Take all the animals out of the house." The farmer did it, returned to the wise man and said, "Oh thank you sir for your advice. My life is wonderful now."
> 
> Looks like this is what Amtrak did. They reduced food service on the CL/LSL to absolutely rotten levels that many could not tolerate, and some bolted just to avoid (some were fine with it). Then they improved it a little, TV dinners for lunch and dinner, more breakfast choices (but it's still not made-to-order French Toast quality) -- and people are applauding. Isn't life wonderful!


Seems like a bit of an exaggeration.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 18, 2019)

Manny T said:


> Looks like this is what Amtrak did. They reduced food service on the CL/LSL to absolutely rotten levels that many could not tolerate, and some bolted just to avoid (some were fine with it). Then they improved it a little, TV dinners for lunch and dinner, more breakfast choices, and people are applauding.


Conspiracy theories can be sometimes explained with simple incompetence.  Not everyone is a Senator Palatine.

Still waiting to see when the coach passengers will be allow to spend money in the dinner.  At some point someone is going ask why this car is exclusive to a handful of elite passengers.  Who many or many not cover the expense of the car.  When all the food preparation can be done in a much smaller space, like a dinette/lounge car.  Not the best use for a brand new dining car.


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## VTTrain (Jan 18, 2019)

While I question the wisdom of having the dining car be exclusively for sleeper car passengers, I’m not sure how many people will ultimately question that decision while they are on the train. It’s not as if people demand first class amenities when they are flying coach on an airplane.   Conceptually, it’s reasonable that people who pay much more for their ticket will receive enhanced benefits in return. 

That said, I would like to see this be opened up to coach passengers. But if they do that I would like the option to pre-order meals as a sleeper car passenger so I am guaranteed to get the meal of my choice.


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## VTTrain (Jan 18, 2019)

I just noticed that the calorie counts are conspicuously absent from the new menu.


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## cpotisch (Jan 18, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> While I question the wisdom of having the dining car be exclusively for sleeper car passengers, I’m not sure how many people will ultimately question that decision while they are on the train. It’s not as if people demand first class amenities when they are flying coach on an airplane.   Conceptually, it’s reasonable that people who pay much more for their ticket will receive enhanced benefits in return.
> 
> That said, I would like to see this be opened up to coach passengers. But if they do that I would like the option to pre-order meals as a sleeper car passenger so I am guaranteed to get the meal of my choice.


Conventional Amtrak dining cars have always served coach passengers, and they managed without any pre-order system. And let's not forget that before contemporary dining, the LSL had one of the highest rates of diner utilization by coach passengers in the Amtrak system (something like 50%). So not only does cutting coach passengers out of the diner alienate the more budget-constrained customers, but it also means that Amtrak is missing out on quite a bit of diner revenue.

I agree that "it's reasonable for people who pay much more for their ticket [to] receive enhanced benefits". So why not do it the way it's been for 25 or so years; sleeper passengers' get free hot meals in the dining car, while coach has to pay for it. I would consider that a pretty decent benefit, and don't see why the latter group have to get cut out altogether.


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## cpotisch (Jan 18, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> I just noticed that the calorie counts are conspicuously absent from the new menu.


Once/If Amtrak Food Facts gets the new menu, you'll have it there.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 18, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Conventional Amtrak dining cars have always served coach passengers, and they managed without any pre-order system. And let's not forget that before contemporary dining, the LSL had one of the highest rates of diner utilization by coach passengers in the Amtrak system (something like 50%). So not only does cutting coach passengers out of the diner alienate the more budget-constrained customers, but* it also means that Amtrak is missing out on quite a bit of diner revenue.﻿*


Well 1st... many of those coach passengers are still giving amtrak f&b revenue in the cafe car. (I didn't say all.. but I'm sure many are). 

2nd... in order to get that extra revenue, amtrak has to hire 2 more full time employees, and have a larger supply of food on board. 

So business wise I can see where this makes sense. Now getting it to a point where customers are happy...  looks like they are working on it. (Though this still seems a few steps away from ideal... very little variety).


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## cpotisch (Jan 18, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Well 1st... many of those coach passengers are still giving amtrak f&b revenue in the cafe car. (I didn't say all.. but I'm sure many are).
> 
> 2nd... in order to get that extra revenue, amtrak has to hire 2 more full time employees, and have a larger supply of food on board.
> 
> So business wise I can see where this makes sense. Now getting it to a point where customers are happy...  looks like they are working on it. (Though this still seems a few steps away from ideal... very little variety).


How do you know that they would need two more full time employees? They wouldn't have to completely go back to the old system just to also serve coach passengers.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 19, 2019)

Oh I thought you were suggesting it should have stayed like it always was. 

So what are you suggesting? That coach passengers can enter the diner, order one of the few entrees and a drink, and then eat it in the diner? Since there is no table service and no real "Dining experience" left I'm not sure what the appeal is.


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## Triley (Jan 19, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> The Viewliner II diners used as "Sleeper Lounges" on the LSL are the exact same as those on the Meteor. And I'm pretty sure they do have backup power.


Batteries are for emergency lights only. No power to HVAC, outlets, or any kitchen equipment. Think about how high the power requirement would be for all that.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 19, 2019)

The elusive breakfast sandwich photo on the lakeshore limited.  Actually looks good.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 19, 2019)

The elusive breakfast sandwich photo on the lakeshore limited.  Actually looks good.   

I have have now eaten it and I enjoyed it.  Of course I miss the pancakes and sausage.  But this is an improvement.  

The attendant did not speak.  Just pointed.   I asked for the sandwich and coffee.  She sat at her table and played music.  Was super friendly with crew members.  I was not impressed.  

I am somewhat inclined to buy food from the snack car and sit there later today and play some AC/DC on my phone.  If she can play her music I can play mine.


----------



## Thirdrail7 (Jan 19, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Conventional Amtrak dining cars have always served coach passengers, and they managed without any pre-order system. And let's not forget that before contemporary dining, the LSL had one of the highest rates of diner utilization by coach passengers in the Amtrak system (something like 50%). So not only does cutting coach passengers out of the diner alienate the more budget-constrained customers, but it also means that Amtrak is missing out on quite a bit of diner revenue.
> 
> I agree that "it's reasonable for people who pay much more for their ticket [to] receive enhanced benefits". So why not do it the way it's been for 25 or so years; sleeper passengers' get free hot meals in the dining car, while coach has to pay for it. I would consider that a pretty decent benefit, and don't see why the latter group have to get cut out altogether.


What you're forgetting is the whole premise of this concept: eliminating losses and for 25 years, Amtrak has not eliminated or losses. That is the goal. 2020 is closing in.



cpotisch said:


> How do you know that they would need two more full time employees? They wouldn't have to completely go back to the old system just to also serve coach passengers.


That may be true, but you'll still need more stock, more space and more diversity of product.  This leads to more shrink, more spoilage or more "we're already out of that" as they stock less of each item to keep losses at a minimum.

2020 is closing.


----------



## cpotisch (Jan 19, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh I thought you were suggesting it should have stayed like it always was.
> 
> So what are you suggesting? That coach passengers can enter the diner, order one of the few entrees and a drink, and then eat it in the diner? Since there is no table service and no real "Dining experience" left I'm not sure what the appeal is.


I'm saying that I don't think it would be that difficult to slap some price tags on the breakfast buffet and boxed meals and open it up to coach passengers. I don't think that would require them to completely go back to the old system or adding two more employees.


----------



## cpotisch (Jan 19, 2019)

Triley said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > The Viewliner II diners used as "Sleeper Lounges" on the LSL are the exact same as those on the Meteor. And I'm pretty sure they do have backup power.
> ...


I was responding to [email protected][/USER] 's experience where the dining car staff had to put glow sticks out during an engine change. So I don't think the lack of HVAC, outlets, or kitchen equipment would have necessitated that.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Jan 19, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I'm saying that I don't think it would be that difficult to slap some price tags on the breakfast buffet and boxed meals and open it up to coach passengers. I don't think that would require them to completely go back to the old system or adding two more employees.


I haven't ridden these trains since the changes so I can't comment on how that may or may not work based on how the sleeping car passengers are using the car. But since the car is now just a car of tables, there is nothing special about it vs. the cafe / ssl car. So the appeal of eating in the diner really isn't there... it's not an experience anymore than eating in the cafe / SSL car is. So if your argument is that coach passengers should have access to the menu items.. I agree, but I'm guessing many would not sell at the price points that would be set for them.  The breakfast items are already available in the cafe aren't they?  

I'm def. not saying the current set-up is perfect, I just think opening it up to coach passengers takes away one of the few nice things... having a "sleeper" lounge.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 19, 2019)

Steve4031 said:


> The elusive breakfast sandwich photo on the lakeshore limited.  Actually looks good.
> 
> I have have now eaten it and I enjoyed it.  Of course I miss the pancakes and sausage.  But this is an improvement.
> 
> ...


It's that charming amtrak style of customer service that has made me a more loyal Delta customer than I had ever dreamed of. As much as I prefer train travel, a few trips on Delta First Class (which are no more $$$ than a sleeper) and you miss it less and less.  I still love train travel and I genuinely like the amtrak equipment and don't mind the speeds. But it's that style of attitude that I encountered too many times that made me take less amtrak travel.


----------



## Steve4031 (Jan 19, 2019)

Well I wandered down to the lounge car to try the the tavern ham sandwich.  Was not impressed.  I provided photos.  I took one for the team.  

The lsa was very friendly and outgoing.  I had forgotten the lsa was in the lounge car so I innocently commented it was nice to meet a smiling face.  She was cleaning tables with paper towels and a spray cleaner as we spoke.  I mentioned that was a first.  She appreciated the compliments.  

She asked about the not so friendly employee.  I told her about the experience in the diner at breakfast and the music.  She was concerned and I said, don’t worry, I’m enjoying my trip.  She stated, I’m the LSA and I expect people to do their jobs.  I’ll go back and talk to her later.  She comped me the tavern sandwich and popcorn.  

I went back later to get my angus burger with cheese for lunch with Doritos. I had my credit card out to pay.  She again comped me.  She stated you paid for this when you bought that ticket.  On my trip in November the lsa in the lounge charged me. So I don’t know if this would happen for everyone.  

I carried the food back to the diner.  There was no music. She was nice to some but not me.  She must have put 2 and 2 together because not many were going to the lounge for food.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 19, 2019)

Ok my response to those photos is heated vending machine food and cereal my 11 month old eats for breakfast at daycare sometimes. Not impressed. 

I admit I watch way too many YouTube travel vlogs.  How come most of the food in dining cars/lounges on European trains actually looks good, hearty and filling? It’s all reheated food. If your going to do it do it right. Via’s  Ocean is another example to an even higher standard. 

Photos from Virgin UK and Calidonian sleeper class.


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 19, 2019)

But nothing beats VIA Rail's fresh food.


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## cpotisch (Jan 19, 2019)

Seaboard92 said:


> View attachment 12212
> 
> But nothing beats VIA Rail's fresh food.


I so need to rob a bank and ride the Canadian.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 19, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I so need to rob a bank and ride the Canadian.


No.  Rob a drug dealer.  They won’t report it.  Just make sure there are no witnesses . . .


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## jebr (Jan 19, 2019)

The Canadian isn't too bad if you ride it in a berth and get it on sale. I did Winnipeg to Vancouver one way in late May 2015 and the cost was around CA$500. I live within driving distance of Winnipeg, so just did a domestic flight back to Winnipeg. Very much worth it.


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## pennyk (Jan 19, 2019)

jebr said:


> The Canadian isn't too bad if you ride it in a berth and get it on sale. I did Winnipeg to Vancouver one way in late May 2015 and the cost was around CA$500. I live within driving distance of Winnipeg, so just did a domestic flight back to Winnipeg. Very much worth it.


In December 2010, I did Tornoto to Vancouver in a room for 2 for US $865 (on sale).  Also, very much worth it.


----------



## Manny T (Jan 20, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> So if your argument is that coach passengers should have access to the menu items.. I agree, but I'm guessing many would not sell at the price points that would be set for them.﻿


Agree with the 2d part. The "refresh" consists of replacing cold boxed meals with reheated frozen dinners (TV dinners), then adding a salad, dessert and beverage. For sleeper PAX they are free, but how much would Amtrak charge coach PAX for these $3.99 TV dinners -- $16.50? $18.50? No sane coach passenger is going to want to buy them. So imho the question of "allowing" coach PAX into the now barren "dining car" to do so is a non-starter.


----------



## Seaboard92 (Jan 20, 2019)

I did the Canadian in an open berth for $200 from Vancouver to Toronto. But I managed to get a 75 percent discount. 

I know a lot of people don't like the uppers. But personally I like the upper berth. Especially if you can get the one across the aisle from the shower. It's very private. And really easy to go to sleep without a window b


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 20, 2019)

Manny T said:


> Agree with the 2d part. The "refresh" consists of replacing cold boxed meals with reheated frozen dinners (TV dinners), then adding a salad, dessert and beverage. For sleeper PAX they are free, but how much would Amtrak charge coach PAX for these $3.99 TV dinners -- $16.50? $18.50? No sane coach passenger is going to want to buy them. So imho the question of "allowing" coach PAX into the now barren "dining car" to do so is a non-starter.


The LSL is the last train of the day traveling west across NY.  I am a Utica home station type of person. When traveling on this train I will/have eaten in the dinner even at the nose bleed prices.  That option is no longer available to me as a coach passenger.

With the lounge car getting added in Albany do they still sell snacks to the coach passenger from the dinner?

My last trip from NYC was from NYG not NYP so I have missed this so far.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 20, 2019)

Manny T said:


> Agree with the 2d part. The "refresh" consists of replacing cold boxed meals with reheated frozen dinners (TV dinners), then adding a salad, dessert and beverage. For sleeper PAX they are free, but how much would Amtrak charge coach PAX for these $3.99 TV dinners -- $16.50? $18.50? No sane coach passenger is going to want to buy them. So imho the question of "allowing" coach PAX into the now barren "dining car" to do so is a non-starter.


Agree 100 percent, they have more “heated” options now but the quality from the previous contemporary menu appears to have taken a major hit.  If coach passengers were going to buy the entree it would have to be in the $8-10 range tops and even then over priced. 

 It hits home to me because I do buy these type frozen meals sometimes on layovers and heat them up in the hotel rooms microwave.  For $2.50- 4 bucks they’re great as a snack or very light meal. They look exactly like the photos


----------



## cpotisch (Jan 20, 2019)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> With the lounge car getting added in Albany do they still sell snacks to the coach passenger from the dinner?


The lounge car has always been added in Albany, and I don't think they have ever served snacks out of the diner.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Jan 20, 2019)

To the above poster who suggested Amtrak look to how Caledonian Sleeper does it... umm....  here's some photos from actual travelers on the Caledonian Sleeper... this is the first class breakfast.   (photos are not mine, copied from travel blog sites for demonstration).


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 20, 2019)

I've only ridden the Canadian once, and while I very much enjoyed it I still think it's way over-hyped. Sure the dining car is a bit classier, and dome cars are the best thing ever (really they are) but chances are  you're also going to sit on a siding for 6-8 hours.  Are the Canadian rockies prettier than the Colorado Rockies?  Well everytime I've ridden the Zephyr I've gotten to see the Colorado Rockies, and we traveled through most of the Canadian rockies in the dark due to delays on the Canadian so I can't tell ya. ha. 

The dining car staff out of Winnipeg was visually annoyed when my table-mate tried to order in French and she refused to respond to him in French. (Canada is bi-lingual and all menus are printed in both english and french.. this should have been a non-issue). Dining car staff also made it almost impossible to order anything other than water or alcohol ($$$) for lunch / diner.  The server told you to ask the host. The host says he only takes orders for wine and beer and to ask your server.  Silly things like that.  To be fair the dining car staff out of Toronto was quite good but that shows that VIA rail has the same inconsistencies Amtrak has. Oh yeah, and I remember riding it all those years ago and the staff commenting that they just replaced fresh flowers with plastic ones in the diner.


----------



## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 20, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> To the above poster who suggested Amtrak look to how Caledonian Sleeper does it... umm....  here's some photos from actual travelers on the Caledonian Sleeper... this is the first class breakfast.   (photos are not mine, copied from travel blog sites for demonstration).
> 
> View attachment 12217
> View attachment 12215
> View attachment 12216


Yes breakfast is served like that to some passengers since train arrives early 7:07 to London and 7:22 to Glasgow.  Sleeping car pax still have option of full breakfast though. The dinner is still as shown earlier, sit down service. 

The dinner/light bites/snack menu is actually 8 pages. Check it out at Sleeper.scot . Coach passengers have access to meals on a separate “seated” to go menu perhaps that’s what the breakfast photos are as well.


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Jan 20, 2019)

But the dinner isn't included in the first class ticket price is it?


----------



## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 20, 2019)

Doesn’t look like it, except kids under 12 eat free. Prices are very reasonable though.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 20, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> The lounge car has always been added in Albany, and I don't think they have ever served snacks out of the diner.


They have in the past.  Not sure what the current set up.  My travel pattern are normal west bound.  Rare to snag the LSL out of NYC.  When travel from Florida I arrange a pick up at Albany, rather the late arrival in Utica.


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## PVD (Jan 20, 2019)

I vaguely remember getting something simple (bag of chips?)  between NY and Albany some time ago, and the phrase "pantry box" comes to mind. Not sure if I remember correctly. Now, I usually just have something in my bag stashed for the occasion.


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## pennyk (Jan 20, 2019)

PVD said:


> I vaguely remember getting something simple (bag of chips?)  between NY and Albany some time ago, and the phrase "pantry box" comes to mind. Not sure if I remember correctly. Now, I usually just have something in my bag stashed for the occasion.


I do not recall what it was called, but I believe that snacks used to be sold in the dining car before the cafe car was merged with 49 in Albany.  I know that I purchased beer more than once prior to Albany and prior to my sitting down for dinner during trips prior to the new contemporary dining.


----------



## PVD (Jan 20, 2019)

Thank you, I sort of thought so, but wasn't 100% sure....


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## OBS (Jan 20, 2019)

PVD said:


> I vaguely remember getting something simple (bag of chips?)  between NY and Albany some time ago, and the phrase "pantry box" comes to mind. Not sure if I remember correctly. Now, I usually just have something in my bag stashed for the occasion.


"Panic Box"  is the term......


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## cpotisch (Jan 20, 2019)

PVD said:


> I vaguely remember getting something simple (bag of chips?)  between NY and Albany some time ago, and the phrase "pantry box" comes to mind. Not sure if I remember correctly. Now, I usually just have something in my bag stashed for the occasion.


They give each sleepers passenger a box full of chips and snacks and stuff east of Albany if #48 is running too late. Any chance you're thinking of that?


----------



## dlagrua (Jan 20, 2019)

Getting back on topic it seems that the LSL and CL food at the very least now includes 3 hot entrees. After reviewing the menu its still not great and its served in a box,  but good enough for my wife to book a trip for us this May. Food seems similar to what we used to get on the Cardinal but FAR less choices. Last we recall they serve on plates there too and you have the community seating which we like. The Cardinal menu offers 












[SIZE=11pt]BREAKFAST[/SIZE]




 






[SIZE=9.02pt]Southern Style Chicken Biscuit[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Continental Breakfast[/SIZE]

*[SIZE=9.02pt]Rail Road French Toast[/SIZE]*

[SIZE=9.02pt]Salsa Omelet with Roast Potatoes, Pork Sausage, (optional) Cheddar Cheese[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Guacamole & Chunky Tomato Salsa[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Applewood Smoked Bacon[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Chicken Harvest Sausage Links[/SIZE]




 










 






[SIZE=11pt]LUNCH[/SIZE]




 





[SIZE=9.02pt]Chicken Pesto Focaccia Sandwich – Train 50[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Honey Turkey & Provolone Sandwich[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Ham & Turkey & Swiss Cuban Sandwich with Mustard & Pickles[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Black Forest Ham & Muenster[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Chef’s Leafy Green Salad with (optional) Diced Turkey & Turkey Breast[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Chicken Caesar Salad[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]The Cardinal Angus Cheeseburger[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Meatballs with Roast Tomato Sauce & Penne Pasta[/SIZE]




 









[SIZE=11pt]DINNER[/SIZE]




 





[SIZE=9.02pt]Roasted Chicken, Madeira Sauce, Bread Pudding and Green Beans[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Seafood Jambalaya with Andouille Pork Sausage[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Pork Shanks, Tomatillo Sauce, Mexican Black Bean Rice[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Vegan Chinese Rice Noodles[/SIZE]




 










 







 






[SIZE=11pt]CHILDREN'S & SPECIAL MEALS[/SIZE]




 






[SIZE=9.02pt]Kids French Toast[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Hebrew National Hot Dog[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Cheese Pizza[/SIZE]




 







 







 






[SIZE=11pt]DESSERTS[/SIZE]




 






[SIZE=9.02pt]No Sugar Added Vanilla Pudding[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Greek Yogurt Cheesecake[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Lemon Citrus Tart, Strawberry Garnish[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9.02pt]Chocolate Caramel Whiskey Pecan Bundt[/SIZE]




 







 







The above is done with one chef/server and help from an SCA. If they can so it on one train then why not do it on the CL and LSL? [SIZE=11pt]                        [/SIZE]


----------



## lordsigma (Jan 20, 2019)

dlagrua said:


> Getting back on topic it seems that the LSL and CL food at the very least now includes 3 hot entrees. After reviewing the menu its still not great nad its served in a box but good enough for my wife to book a trip for us this May. Food seems similar to what we used to get on the Cardinal but less choices. Last we recall they serve on plates there. The Cardinal menu offers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The dinner entrée setup is now essentially equivalent to the Cardinal..... three non vegan options and one vegan option... the big thing missing is lighter lunch options and some of the breakfast options (and obviously table service.)


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## spinnaker (Jan 20, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> The dinner entrée setup is now essentially equivalent to the Cardinal..... three non vegan options and one vegan option... the big thing missing is lighter lunch options and some of the breakfast options (and obviously table service.)


NONE of them look appetizing to me.   The pork shanks look like vomit.    The portions don't look large enough to feed a bird.   I will probably need to grab something before I get onboard  the CL.


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## jis (Jan 20, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> The lounge car has always been added in Albany, and I don't think they have ever served snacks out of the diner.


Oh yes. They used to serve snacks in the Diner on the Albany - NY leg of the LSL on the eastbound for several years quite a while back. I have actually used such many times in the past.

For someone as young as you, you seem to have incredibly certain thoughts about thing that occurred before you could speak or stand on your feet eh? :lol:

Even before that for a brief period they even used to serve Dinner in the Diner too. The sliding backwards on food service started decades back.


----------



## Gemuser (Jan 21, 2019)

dlagrua said:


> Getting back on topic it seems that the LSL and CL food at the very least now includes 3 hot entrees. After reviewing the menu its still not great and its served in a box,  but good enough for my wife to book a trip for us this May. Food seems similar to what we used to get on the Cardinal but FAR less choices. Last we recall they serve on plates there too and you have the community seating which we like. The Cardinal menu offers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No entrees, only main courses for lunch & dinner! Not good!


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## VTTrain (Jan 21, 2019)

One thing that Amtrak just doesn't seem to be able to get right are salads.  Every single photo I have seen of an Amtrak salad looks like something a coffee shop from 1978 would serve with their Salisbury Steak blue plate special.


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## cpotisch (Jan 21, 2019)

jis said:


> Oh yes. They used to serve snacks in the Diner on the Albany - NY leg of the LSL on the eastbound for several years quite a while back. I have actually used such many times in the past.
> 
> For someone as young as you, you seem to have incredibly certain thoughts about thing that occurred before you could speak or stand on your feet eh? :lol:
> 
> Even before that for a brief period they even used to serve Dinner in the Diner too. The sliding backwards on food service started decades back.


Sorry, I should have said "in the ten years I've been riding the LSL, they have never served snacks out of the diner".


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## cpotisch (Jan 21, 2019)

spinnaker said:


> NONE of them look appetizing to me.   The pork shanks look like vomit.    The portions don't look large enough to feed a bird.   I will probably need to grab something before I get onboard  the CL.


The pork shank is on the Cardinal, not the CL or LSL. The only one Cardinal option that _can_ sort of be found on the LSL/CL is the Asian Noodle Bowl, albeit with the shrimp taken out.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 21, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> Sorry, I should have said "in the ten years I've been riding the LSL, they have never served snacks out of the diner".


It always was a common practice. It was easy to miss... just chips, candy, and drinks.

I remember they did this back when the Crescent split too. My first memory riding the Crescent you had to get snacks from the diner until the Gulf Breeze section was added with the lounge.


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## dlagrua (Jan 21, 2019)

Gemuser said:


> No entrees, only main courses for lunch & dinner! Not good!


I would never try to defend the Cardinal menu as the ultimate in gourmet cuisine cooked by French Chefs Just trying to suggest a budget menu that might fit on the CL and LSL. The Cardinal food is by all means basic but at least there are many choices and diners are served at the table.  Lunch has 9 choices, Dinner has four They removed the God awful french toast sticks for breakfast and added the railroad french toast which is typically good.  I'd love to have the full diner service again but with the way things are now, reheated high salt frozen foods are what Amtrak is offering right now.


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## tonijustine (Jan 21, 2019)

dlagrua said:


> Getting back on topic it seems that the LSL and CL food at the very least now includes 3 hot entrees. After reviewing the menu its still not great and its served in a box,  but good enough for my wife to book a trip for us this May. Food seems similar to what we used to get on the Cardinal but FAR less choices. Last we recall they serve on plates there too and you have the community seating which we like. The Cardinal menu offers
> BREAKFAST
> 
> Southern Style Chicken Biscuit
> ...



That menu is not the current menu for the Cardinal.


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## cpotisch (Jan 21, 2019)

tonijustine said:


> That menu is not the current menu for the Cardinal.


 Do you know if the menu currently listed on Amtrak.com is accurate?


> – BREAKFAST –
> [SIZE=13pt]Sausage and Cheese Breakfast Sandwich............................. 8.50[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=9pt]Hearty double sausage and cheese served on a biscuit with a side of fresh fruit[/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]. (685 cal.)[/SIZE]
> ...


----------



## tonijustine (Jan 21, 2019)

I have a trip scheduled in a bedroom on the CL in March. This actually sounds like an upgrade and I am looking forward to the trip. The food is always a perk to me, not a requirement. And this will be my first time in a bedroom (I usually do roomettes).


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## Bostontoallpoints (Jan 22, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> To the above poster who suggested Amtrak look to how Caledonian Sleeper does it... umm....  here's some photos from actual travelers on the Caledonian Sleeper... this is the first class breakfast.   (photos are not mine, copied from travel blog sites for demonstration).
> 
> View attachment 12217
> View attachment 12215
> View attachment 12216






Amtrakfflyer said:


> Yes breakfast is served like that to some passengers since train arrives early 7:07 to London and 7:22 to Glasgow.  Sleeping car pax still have option of full breakfast though. The dinner is still as shown earlier, sit down service.
> 
> The dinner/light bites/snack menu is actually 8 pages. Check it out at Sleeper.scot . Coach passengers have access to meals on a separate “seated” to go menu perhaps that’s what the breakfast photos are as well.


I took the Caledonian 2 years ago from Inverness to London.  The train left Inverness at 8:45 pm so most passengers do not eat a meal.  Also the Caledonian does not have a diner car, it's a lounge car with couches and about 6 tables.  I had the haggis, it was fine but it was essentially microwaved airplane food.  The breakfast was exactly as pictured above, delivered to my room and heated in a convection oven at the end of the sleeping car.  We all concluded that Amtrak had better food and the sleeping cars on Amtrak were better as well.  I find that European and Asian trains run more frequently and have good connections but their amenities such as food and beverage are just adequate.


----------



## PerRock (Jan 22, 2019)

Doing a little digging, and it seems (at least according to The Man in Seat 61) that if you have your meals in the lounge, you get the nicer meals seen; where as in your compartment it's the boxed meals.

Also, the Caledonia should be getting new Mk5 cars this year, so they might be a change in service.

peter


----------



## crescent-zephyr (Jan 22, 2019)

PerRock said:


> Doing a little digging, and it seems (at least according to The Man in Seat 61) that if you have your meals in the lounge, you get the nicer meals seen; where as in your compartment it's the boxed meals.
> 
> ﻿ Also, the Caledonia should be getting new Mk5 cars this year, so they might be a change in service.
> 
> peter


I think it's the same menu. It may be plated nicer if you eat in the lounge (but not sure what the current practice is?). 

One day I hope to be able to tell you first hand... that's a route I've always wanted to take as well as the Great Western's overnight train "Night Riviera"


----------



## lordsigma (Jan 22, 2019)

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/hotline/hotline-1-100/

RPA post talking about the menu changes...

Interesting line in the posting... the author states that Amtrak mentioned in their meeting with RPA about dining that the long term vision for the two night National Network trains would be an improved service with "more traditional dining options."

Will be interesting to see what that ends up meaning...

Hopefully that indicates that the two night trains are not destined for this same fate.

Further reading would hint that RPA's long term goal is to get the language about F&B breaking even removed in the 2020 re-authorization.


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## Bostontoallpoints (Jan 22, 2019)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I think it's the same menu. It may be plated nicer if you eat in the lounge (but not sure what the current practice is?).
> 
> One day I hope to be able to tell you first hand... that's a route I've always wanted to take as well as the Great Western's overnight train "Night Riviera"


Ist class gets the same meals but have first dibs on eating in the lounge.  Technically if the lounge is full 1st class passengers get preferential seating.   Again breakfast is heated in a convection oven that is located in the passenger car galley.  Each sleeper car has a galley at one end.  Dinner was microwaved and placed on a plate.  I complimented the server on my haggis and said; "I'll pass on the compliments to the microwave".  The meal was decent but I have had much better on Amtrak.


----------



## spinnaker (Jan 22, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> The pork shank is on the Cardinal, not the CL or LSL. The only one Cardinal option that _can_ sort of be found on the LSL/CL is the Asian Noodle Bowl, albeit with the shrimp taken out.


Thank goodness.


----------



## cocojacoby (Jan 22, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/hotline/hotline-1-100/
> 
> RPA post talking about the menu changes...
> 
> ...


But what does that mean for the other full service "single night" trains like the Silver Meteor and the Crescent?


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## dlagrua (Jan 22, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> But what does that mean for the other full service "single night" trains like the Silver Meteor and the Crescent?


I believe that we know what it means.


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## lordsigma (Jan 23, 2019)

I think a lot's going to depend on what comes of the proposals they put out for the F&B program and whether they outsource F&B. The proposals included a number of options including continuing with Amtrak staffing on the trains but with the OBS program fully managed by a contractor all the way to fully outsourcing F&B company wide with staffing by that company - if they went outsourced F&B I wouldn't be surprised if that also includes managing all other OBS including the sleeping cars..


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## Bostontoallpoints (Jan 23, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I so need to rob a bank and ride the Canadian.


Good luck riding the Canadian, starting this April it will only run twice a week.  The Ocean runs 3 times a week.  Via rail long distance trains are essentially vacation trains and do not provide adequate rural or intercity service.


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## NativeSon5859 (Jan 23, 2019)

Well - I’m going to be trying the new meals on the Lake Shore next month. I’m getting tired of the menu on the CONO plus the fact that my room was going to be in the Trans Dorm (no problems with the car per se but it’s just obnoxiously loud on 58/59 with no baggage car) that I’m flying to NYC and starting my transcon trip from there instead.

I tried the original boxed meals back in November and I thought they were OK, tolerable for one night, but this new menu seems to be substantially better. Guess I’ll find out!


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## VTTrain (Jan 23, 2019)

At the risk of opening up a can of worms, what is the tipping protocol for this new menu?  I don't think that it deserves the same level of tipping as genuine table service, but I want to make sure that my instinct is shared by others.


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## cpotisch (Jan 23, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> At the risk of opening up a can of worms, what is the tipping protocol for this new menu?  I don't think that it deserves the same level of tipping as genuine table service, but I want to make sure that my instinct is shared by others.


There isn’t any set “tipping protocol”, per se.  In a normal dining car, we just tip 15-20% off the menu price of what we order. It sounds like many crews actually _have_ been offering table service, so I think the main issue here is the lack of menu prices. I guess I would probably just assess what I think the meal is worth myself, and then tip accordingly. If they don’t provide table service and I have to pick it from the counter, I don’t know if I’d tip at all (maybe $1).


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## VTTrain (Jan 23, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> There isn’t any set “tipping protocol”, per se.


I know that there is no actual written policy.  No need to be pedantic.



cpotisch said:


> If they don’t provide table service and I have to pick it from the counter, I don’t know if I’d tip at all (maybe $1).﻿


That's pretty much what I was thinking.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 23, 2019)

Bostontoallpoints said:


> Good luck riding the Canadian, starting this April it will only run twice a week.  The Ocean runs 3 times a week.  Via rail long distance trains are essentially vacation trains and do not provide adequate rural or intercity service.


When I rode the Canadian, I met Canadians who were traveling for work, back to school, visiting family, and one who was in the process of moving from Toronto to Vancouver area. I also met Canadians on vacation, as well as others, like myself from the USA, and also several vacationing from the UK and Australia.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jan 23, 2019)

I've never tipped on Amtrak or VIA based on menu prices. I tip $2 or $3 for breakfast and lunch, $3-5 for dinner based on service. 

With the new service, maybe a $1-$3 tip depending on the service. If they are being friendly, cleaning tables, delivering food, etc. than I''m going to leave something. If they are just sitting at the counter and not seeming to care than I probably won't tip anything.


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## AG1 (Jan 23, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> At the risk of opening up a can of worms, what is the tipping protocol for this new menu?  I don't think that it deserves the same level of tipping as genuine table service, but I want to make sure that my instinct is shared by others.


The union LSA makes average $25 an hour to hand out boxes and bags at 1-2 minutes a customer.  I didn't see anyone leave a tip in the 5 meals I had on  2 LSLs  in the D/Lounge. Everyone  self cleared their tables like at a fast food place with no help from the LSA. Amtrak's printed protocol on tipping is that it "isn't required '', but you can reward "exceptional service" if you want too. It is a stretch to call passing out boxes and bags "exceptional service" ?


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## cpotisch (Jan 23, 2019)

AG1 said:


> ﻿ The union LSA makes average $25 an hour to hand out boxes and bags at 1-2 minutes a customer.  I didn't see anyone leave a tip in the 5 meals I had on  2 LSLs  in the D/Lounge. Everyone  self cleared their tables like at a fast food place with no help from the LSA. Amtrak's printed protocol on tipping is that it "isn't required '', but you can reward "exceptional service" if you want too. It is a stretch to call passing out boxes and bags "exceptional service" ?


You and I go way back (well, seven months) when it comes to relatively heated tipping discussions, but I'm still going to say that I disagree with the suggestion that one should only tip for "exceptional service".

I mean, the job of an LSA in the LSL/CL "sleeper lounge" definitely isn't too complicated or elaborate on paper, but if I were to see on a busy train that that person is working to make service quick and smooth for me, I will probably tip. I likely won't tip much, but I can appreciate someone doing a basic job well. Just my take. Obviously, YMMV.


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## cpotisch (Jan 23, 2019)

VTTrain said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> > VTTrain said:
> ...


I know you know that there is no actual written policy. My point was not that you (or anyone) thought it was mandatory, but rather was just leading with the fact that there isn't real general consensus here on the matter. No need to pull a [email protected][/USER] and get defensive.


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## Sauve850 (Jan 23, 2019)

If I go up to the counter (as in my last CL trip) and just pick up a box, a drink and bus my own table I feel there is no reason to tip. Although providing me an extra beer for getting the table ready for the next guest would be reasonable.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 23, 2019)

cpotisch said:


> I'm still going to say that I disagree with the suggestion that one should only tip for "exceptional service".


Most of the usual reasons for tipping (basic wage recovery, special requests, stronger drinks, etc.) don't really exist in the Amtrak dining environment.  This is especially true in the era of boxed lunch style meals.  In my view the only remaining reason is for exceptionally positive service.


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## cocojacoby (Jan 24, 2019)

What about tipping the Cafe attendant?  Do you do that?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 24, 2019)

cocojacoby said:


> What about tipping the Cafe attendant?  Do you do that?


Usually just the change unless they go above and beyond and/or have a pleasant demeanor unlike some OBS who seem to hate their jobs!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 29, 2019)

Keep an eye on the menu. New desserts are in the works.


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Keep an eye on the menu. New desserts are in the works.


I would be so happy if the LSL and CL get the new Spiced Pumpkin Bundt cake... :huh:


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## dlagrua (Jan 30, 2019)

Sauve850 said:


> If I go up to the counter (as in my last CL trip) and just pick up a box, a drink and bus my own table I feel there is no reason to tip. Although providing me an extra beer for getting the table ready for the next guest would be reasonable.


Now with multiple hot menu choices I don' t see how you can self serve.  Someone will need to take your order otherwise how do they know what to heat up? .  Even with boxed meals it may come down to table service again. In the past meals were staggered to allow all sleeper passengers to get their meals. Now it seems like a free for all, first come first served scenario. I guess that we will know for sure come this May's CL  WAS-CHI trips.


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## AG1 (Jan 30, 2019)

dlagrua said:


> Now with multiple hot menu choices I don' t see how you can self serve.  Someone will need to take your order otherwise how do they know what to heat up? .  Even with boxed meals it may come down to table service again. In the past meals were staggered to allow all sleeper passengers to get their meals. Now it seems like a free for all, first come first served scenario. I guess that we will know for sure come this May's CL  WAS-CHI trips.


During my trips on the LSL in 2018 you could go to the Diner/Lounge and receive your boxed meal at any time between 6:30 am and 9:00 pm. There were no set meal times.You could have any meal, at any time, such as the hot short ribs for lunch and dinner. The attendant never appeared to be harried or busy.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 30, 2019)

Too bad they didn’t keep the short ribs. Health concerns aside it looked better then current offerings.


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Too bad they didn’t keep the short ribs. Health concerns aside it looked better then current offerings.


I imagine the “Beef Provençal” will be pretty comparable.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Jan 30, 2019)

You may be right and I shouldn’t compare since I haven’t tried the menu yet. I’ve had some great short ribs and lamb shanks on Amtrak in the past neither of which was “cooked” onboard.

I’m skeptical in general but all three of the hot entrees line up almost word for word with a healthy choice entree. I know I’ve said it before but it’s pretty blatant.


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2019)

What descriptions to do see as being "almost word for word"?  The only two words I see in common are "beef", "wine", and "vegetable". The pictures don't even look alike.


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## cpotisch (Jan 30, 2019)

Ryan said:


> What descriptions to do see as being "almost word for word"?  The only two words I see in common are "beef", "wine", and "vegetable". The pictures don't even look alike.


Damn, you beat me to it. But since I like beating dead horses and I already spent way too much time on it, here is a Venn diagram I made on the matter, showing every single shared word. 




So yeah, considering there are a total of six shared words, including the words "with" and "a", it seems a bit of a stretch to say that it's anything close to word for word.  ^_^


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## Ryan (Jan 30, 2019)

You did it correctly, and with a graphic to boot.  Well done!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 30, 2019)

The duplicate words are the main points of the dish: Beef with vegetables and some sort of potatoes.

the rest is "contemporary' fluff. (see what I did there?)


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## Rasputin (Jan 31, 2019)

Which one tastes better?


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## Amtrakfflyer (Feb 1, 2019)

Results may vary but can we agree it’s some commercial brand of frozen food, “similar” to what can be found in the frozen section of the grocery store. It may or may not be an upgrade. Time will tell.


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## Triley (Feb 1, 2019)

lordsigma said:


> I think a lot's going to depend on what comes of the proposals they put out for the F&B program and whether they outsource F&B. The proposals included a number of options including continuing with Amtrak staffing on the trains but with the OBS program fully managed by a contractor all the way to fully outsourcing F&B company wide with staffing by that company - if they went outsourced F&B I wouldn't be surprised if that also includes managing all other OBS including the sleeping cars..


Because of the Railway Labor Act, and associated laws, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to contract out OBS as everyone thinks.

For one, the OBS contracts allow us to work without hours of service limitations, meaning we can do those crazy things such as 18 hour days, 3 hours of sleep/downtime at night, or being of the train for 3 days.

If an outside contractor wanted to take over OBS, they would have to abide by hours of service laws, because there is no way the OBS unions would negotiate to give our jobs away.

So while it COULD happen, it'd be highly unlikely. Having to have OBS personnel change out every 8-12 hours would drastically raise operating costs, as well as be highly disruptive to onboard operations. (Imagine being in the diner for dinner during an OBS change, and having to wait 15-30 minutes while the attendants change out.)


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## PRR 60 (Feb 1, 2019)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> Results may vary but can we agree it’s some commercial brand of frozen food, “similar” to what can be found in the frozen section of the grocery store. It may or may not be an upgrade. Time will tell.


As far as I know, the meals are pre-cooked but not frozen.


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## Amtrakfflyer (Feb 1, 2019)

If think they would have to be for any cost savings, storage etc. Its not like the Ocean where a caterer is preparing them. Good question for the LSA if anyone is riding the train.


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## VTTrain (Feb 1, 2019)

Amtrakfflyer said:


> If think they would have to be for any cost savings, storage etc. Its not like the Ocean where a caterer is preparing them. Good question for the LSA if anyone is riding the train.


 A good question. I know that airline meals are often blast chilled to near, but not quite, the point of freezing. 

 I just assumed that Amtrak’s meals are frozen.


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