# Commuter rail developments in Montreal...



## neroden (Aug 29, 2016)

So, AMT (the commuter rail) is being partly taken over by a subsidiary of the Quebec Pension Fund ("Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec") for the REM ("Reseau Electrique Metropolitain") project to build a number of frequent electric routes. AMT already owns the Deux-Montanges line, which is electrified, and this is the trunk of the planned network.

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/rapid-transit/quebec-pension-fund-turns-passenger-rail-operator.html

Anyway, the news: CPDQ has now purchased from CN the viaduct ("Viaduc du Sud") heading south out of Central Station, as part of this.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/n-america/single-view/view/montreal-light-metro-agreement.html

Amtrak and VIA both run into Central Station on this viaduct. It'll be good to have it in the hands of a public transport operator -- and electrified. Even if it's only for a short distance out of Central Station.


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## Eric S (Aug 29, 2016)

That REM project strikes me as somewhat odd (not necessarily bad, though). My understanding is that it will essentially replace/re-purpose the existing Deux-Montagnes line (regular/mainline commuter rail) with a system similar to Vancouver's SkyTrain and add multiple long extensions and branches, making it incompatible with other AMT and VIA Rail lines. I find it somewhat curious that was the choice rather than upgrading it to a RER/S-Bahn style system.


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## jis (Aug 29, 2016)

The primary motivation would appear to be reducing labor cost and hence cost of operation.


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## WoodyinNYC (Aug 29, 2016)

I may have missed a step or two in the French, but the plan is to invest from Quebec's Social Security fund -- *this new transit/commuter rail entity is supposed to make a profit?!?!?*

There are some precedents for investing Social Security funds in domestic business and infrastructure; in Ghana, Wet Africa, for example, where it wasn't going so well last I had a look. But where's the precedent for a profitable transit or commuter rail operation anywhere in the world?


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## jis (Aug 29, 2016)

WoodyinNYC said:


> There are some precedents for investing Social Security funds in domestic business and infrastructure; in Ghana, Wet Africa, for example, where it wasn't going so well last I had a look. But where's the precedent for a profitable transit or commuter rail operation anywhere in the world?


Tokyo comes to mind. Though one could argue that the financial structure of those outfits include income from real estate associated with the rail facilities. No reason that the setup in Montreal would not be similar. I don;t know how they are exactly setting up the corporation and its finances.

AAF in Florida is using a similar model to set up its finances. It expects to cover capital and operating costs of the entire operation which includes rail and real estate out of the combined earnings of the entire operation and show a significant profit.

Indian Railways is aggressively monetizing its vast real estate holdings to augment its balance sheet, which of late has been positive anyway, except in some years it has not fully covered the dividend that it is supposed to pay into the national exchequer. And financially its biggest headache is suburban services for which the farebox covers less than 50% of the cost. The premium services run positive, and freight runs very positive covering for the losses elsewhere.


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## Eric S (Aug 30, 2016)

jis said:


> The primary motivation would appear to be reducing labor cost and hence cost of operation.


Probably true. Especially comparing automated operation to North American-style staffing levels (rather than European-style).

Interestingly, GO Transit in Toronto seems to be going the RER/S-Bahn route while, as far as I can tell, retaining North American staffing levels.


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## jis (Aug 30, 2016)

Well, keeping North American staffing levels would not really be going RER style, now would it? All that I have seen on RER's is an occasional ticket checking raiding party. Other than that there appears to be just one or two on board staff folks puttering around, specially on routes that have all stations with barrier protection.

On Berlin S-Bahn over a five day period I never came across any train on board staff, and heck, the stations are not even barrier protected. It appears to be a POP system I did see fare examiners on platforms and some boarding another train across the platform. But strangely never on the train that I was one! I was always traveling on my Weekly Pass. Traveled by S-Bahn, Tram and Bus. Very convenient.


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## neroden (Aug 30, 2016)

Eric S said:


> That REM project strikes me as somewhat odd (not necessarily bad, though). My understanding is that it will essentially replace/re-purpose the existing Deux-Montagnes line (regular/mainline commuter rail) with a system similar to Vancouver's SkyTrain and add multiple long extensions and branches, making it incompatible with other AMT and VIA Rail lines. I find it somewhat curious that was the choice rather than upgrading it to a RER/S-Bahn style system.


They are absolutely guaranteeing that VIA and Amtrak service will not be disrupted. They also have to integrate the AMT Mascouche line, which runs on track shared with freight... and then goes through the tunnel. They're not gonna be building a second tunnel or viaduct through Central Station!

So they're going to have to find some way to allow old-fashioned Amtrak, VIA, and AMT trains to share the tracks with their new automated trains. This should be quite interesting. I honestly see no serious technical obstacles, though it could be a fairly involved piece of design work. I believe the automated system will most likely have translator beacons to send signals which can be read by the locomotives with the "freight" PTC system, and will act as a fully restrictive PTC system when dealing with these "manually driven" trains.

I would watch the signalling contract carefully -- it could be a fascinating contract and will probably be quite expensive. If they get the bugs worked out for sharing the tracks between fully automated 4-car trains and full-length manually-driven Amtrak / VIA trains, this might be a product which commuter agencies around Canada and the US would jump to buy. The engineers' unions wouldn't like it and goodness knows what the FRA would do, but this is Canada and they are more open to trying stuff like that than the hidebound FRA.


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## Eric S (Aug 30, 2016)

Official details seem to be scant at this point, at least in what I've read, but it certainly seems that the REM system will result in AMT Mascouche line riders having to transfer from AMT to REM to travel through Mont Royal Tunnel to reach Central Station. If that's the case, my assumption was that REM would take over a pair of tracks and a platform at Central Station, but I've never seen anything that spells out how REM would operate in the immediate Central Station vicinity. If REM is compatible with regular/mainline trains (AMT, VIA, etc) that will certainly be fascinating to see how it's going to be integrated.

In a little under a week on the Zurich S-Bahn I did see fare inspectors a number of times. It too is an open, proof-of-payment system without faregates/turnstiles. My understanding is that it, and many (most?) S-Bahns, are operated with a single employee (engineer/driver/operator) and use roving fare inspectors to enforce payment.

As for Toronto, true, I should have been more specific, referring to the intention to operate frequent all-day service.


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## Seaboard92 (Aug 30, 2016)

I rode the Berlin S Bahn every morning when I was over there for my birthday last year. And I had a fare inspection every morning after the Bellevue station. Seven mornings in a row.


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## jis (Aug 31, 2016)

See, I did not pass Bellevue


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## Anderson (Aug 31, 2016)

Did you pass Go, though?


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## neroden (Sep 3, 2016)

Eric S said:


> Official details seem to be scant at this point, at least in what I've read, but it certainly seems that the REM system will result in AMT Mascouche line riders having to transfer from AMT to REM to travel through Mont Royal Tunnel to reach Central Station.


Not gonna work, they'd need to build a new station for the Masouche line and find a way to get the Mascouche trains to their maintenance shop. More definitively, AMT bought the viaduct south out of Central Station and specifically said that they were doing so so that they didn't have to build a second viaduct. If they aren't building a second viaduct, that means they're sharing track between Amtrak/VIA/AMT and the new lines.


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## Eric S (Sep 3, 2016)

neroden said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Official details seem to be scant at this point, at least in what I've read, but it certainly seems that the REM system will result in AMT Mascouche line riders having to transfer from AMT to REM to travel through Mont Royal Tunnel to reach Central Station.
> ...


Check out Fact Sheet 8 in this pdf - https://www.cdpqinfra.com/sites/all/files/document/cdpqinfra_factsheets_24-08-2016_en.pdf:

*Identified impact*
*Operation of the REM and the conversion of the Deux-Montagnes line into a fully*
*automated electric light rail transit (LRT) system, with a service frequency of*
*3 minutes and possibly 90 seconds, mean that conventional trains from the Mascouche*
*line can no longer run through the Mont-Royal tunnel.*

I need to dig through some of the other documents to see if if clears up questions about additional impacts to the AMT network.


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## neroden (Sep 23, 2016)

The whole project does seem half-baked.

As I say they've promised outright that they're going to keep bringing Amtrak and VIA rail trains into Central Station, and they've also said they aren't building a second viaduct from the south. This means they *absolutely have to* have intercompatibility with "conventional" trains on the south end.

http://www.americanshipper.com/main/news/investment-fund-to-use-cns-central-station-for-pub-65140.aspx

Key points:

" Infrastructure investment fund CDPQ Infra has signed an agreement to acquire the aerial structure leading to Central Station in Montreal from Canadian National Railway (CN) for its Réseau électrique métropolitain (REM) public transportation project."

"The firm said the agreement will not affect the use of Central Station for passenger service by Agence metropolitaine de transport's Mont-Saint-Hilaire line, Amtrak, and VIA Rail."

"...eliminates the need to build parallel tracks."

There's only two tracks on a key bridge on the viaduct. I suppose maybe they could replace that bridge and quad-track that section; maybe they only mean they don't have to build parallel tracks on *as much* of the route as they previously planned...

They will still have to find a way to get Mascouche Line trains to their depot. They could build an entire new depot, I suppose. I wish them luck with that, given that nobody wants a viaduct in their neighborhood.

Of course the dumb way to do it is to send Mascouche Line trains to the depot in the dead of night when REM isn't operating.

They would also have to build an entirely new station for the Mascouche Line transfers, of course.


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## jis (Dec 30, 2022)

This thread had a bit of somewhat impassioned discussion 6 years back on how the proposed Montreal REM would not be feasible for various reasons. Now that 6 years have passed and the core system is nearing completion of construction, here is a nice video with an update of the current state of affairs, and where the REM idea might go next in Montreal:



Looks like they had no problem restoring the two track space that was unused on the viaduct leading to Central Station thus keeping the REM line completely separate from the VIA Main Line into Montreal Central, which now is a terminus station for main line, the Mont Royal Tunnel having been commandeered entirely for REM.









Google Maps


Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




www.google.com





There is also an alternate routing for Mascouche Line trains to gain access to the Exo Yard south of Montreal Central. Details can be found here:









Mascouche line - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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