# Amtrak Route/AGR Question



## inspiration100 (Jul 5, 2012)

Couple of questions here actually so I don't know if I should post it here or in the AGR section:

I am wanting to redeem some AGR points for two zones, starting in Seattle.

My route plan is to go from Seattle to Atlanta (I believe this is 2 zones, correct?)

11 Coast Starlight

2 Sunset Limited

20 Crescent

for a grand 91 hours on the train! Does anyone know how many meals that gives?

I was also debating the route through D.C., but will that charge 3 zones? Which route is better?

My concern is that it seems this route is only offered every other day via Amtrak booking system.

So if I miss the connection from the Starlight to the Sunset Limited, will I be delayed 2 days in Los Angeles?

Also, if I book this through AGR and have to cancel (if I haven't picked up tickets), do I get a FULL point refund within a week of travel?

Thank ya!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 5, 2012)

inspiration100 said:


> My route plan is to go from Seattle to Atlanta (I believe this is 2 zones, correct?)


Correct.









inspiration100 said:


> Does anyone know how many meals that gives?


More than I could ever eat, that's for sure.



inspiration100 said:


> I was also debating the route through D.C., but will that charge 3 zones?


Yes.



inspiration100 said:


> Which route is better?


Couldn't really say. However, I see no benefit with using a three-zone award. Better to use a two-zone combined with a one-zone (in either order) and get a "free" stopover in a dual-zone gateway city. Same number of points, so why not?



inspiration100 said:


> So if I miss the connection from the Starlight to the Sunset Limited, will I be delayed 2 days in Los Angeles?


Yes, if you're lucky. If the next train is sold out then maybe you have to wait longer or end up on a bus or something. It may sound crazy because so many folks seem to hate the Sunset Limited, but they do actually sell out from time to time.



inspiration100 said:


> Also, if I book this through AGR and have to cancel (if I haven't picked up tickets), do I get a FULL point refund within a week of travel?


Yes. I believe you can cancel up to an hour before departure and still get your points back. At least that's what AGR reps (who are not always correct) have told me in the past.



inspiration100 said:


> Thank ya!


No problem.


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## inspiration100 (Jul 5, 2012)

So this makes planning very hard. If the connection between the SL and starlight gets delayed by 2 days, what are my options? Stay and wait in LA? Is that my only choice or will a guaranteed bus option be provided? I can't really plan a detailed trip with a 2 day change in plans very likely to happen with my job.


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## JayPea (Jul 5, 2012)

As for meals, I believe the total would be 15:

2 each Breakfast, lunch, and dinner on the CS;

2 each breakfast, lunch, and dinner on the SL;

1 of each meal on the Crescent

Hope that helps!


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## the_traveler (Jul 5, 2012)

You can cancel a sleeper on an AGR award UP TO DEPARTURE TIME and get a full refund of points!



But once the train has left the station - the points are gone!


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

If you want to be only charged points for one thru ticket, you have to use a routing that exists in the Amtrak reservation system without layovers. Otherwise, you are actually using more than one ticket and they will charge points for each of them, not just from SEA to ATL.

I wanted to travel MSP to ATL with an overnight in NOL and only be charged for a one-zone roomette. I was told by AGR that was not possible, unless I was charged for a roomette from MSP to NOL and then more points for another ticket from NOL to ATL. So, I booked a two-zone trip through DC.

Unless you can convince them otherwise, you will be charged for three zones and travel through DC.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 5, 2012)

inspiration100 said:


> So this makes planning very hard. If the connection between the SL and starlight gets delayed by 2 days, what are my options? Stay and wait in LA? Is that my only choice or will a guaranteed bus option be provided? I can't really plan a detailed trip with a 2 day change in plans very likely to happen with my job.


Tell me about it.

1. I can work remotely. However, I cannot depend on Amtrak to provide useful internet connectivity, even on routes where it is advertised.

2. I can work from any number of hotels all over the country. However, I cannot depend on Amtrak to reach a specific location at a specific point in time, which makes it difficult for me to schedule my availability.

3. I can break up my trip into individual segments that are less likely to run into scheduling or connection problems. Unfortunately for my purposes Amtrak only allows this after spending 50%-100% more points, at which stage it's no longer such a great value to me.

While I'm busy trying to find a way to use my points I've begun gifting some of them to others who have no need to remain connected and are free to take as much time as Amtrak requires to reach their destination.


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## Aaron (Jul 5, 2012)

inspiration100 said:


> So if I miss the connection from the Starlight to the Sunset Limited, will I be delayed 2 days in Los Angeles?


Not necessarily, it could be 3 days. In addition to the aforementioned possibility of a Sunset sellout, if it's the Sunday departure you miss, the next #2 Sunset out of LAX isn't until Wednesday.


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## inspiration100 (Jul 5, 2012)

So translation is, if you miss the train, they will not necessarily guarantee your arrival on the appropriate day? :unsure:

I thought Amtrak was responsible for getting me from A to B in a reasonable manner.

Also, it seems that this is the ONLY option I will not get charged for 3 zones? If I do the Chicago way, it takes me into Virginia (zone 3), even though I am not wanting a layover. Same with the DC option. I don't want the layover, I just want to get from A to B, while being on the train the longest time. This must be a new rule, it makes things much more complicated.

If I knew I'd be delayed 2 days in Los Angeles, that would be fine too, but all the uncertainties (and 3 zone rules) makes this trip almost impossible for me to take.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2012)

inspiration100 said:


> So translation is, if you miss the train, they will not necessarily guarantee your arrival on the appropriate day? :unsure:
> 
> I thought Amtrak was responsible for getting me from A to B in a reasonable manner.
> 
> ...


You can do a two-zone from SEA to NOL and purchase a ticket from NOL to ATL. The NOL to ATL will not be included in your award as it is not part of Amtrak's routing from SEA to ATL.


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## Ryan (Jul 5, 2012)

However, costwise, it's just about Amtrak's greatest bargain.


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## the_traveler (Jul 5, 2012)

Guest said:


> 1341532271[/url]' post='378032']
> 
> 
> inspiration100 said:
> ...


Incorrect! Input SEA-ATL on Amtrak.com for Oct 4, 2012 and see what comes up. (On my screen, it was the first choice!)


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 5, 2012)

inspiration100 said:


> So translation is, if you miss the train, they will not necessarily guarantee your arrival on the appropriate day? :unsure:
> 
> I thought Amtrak was responsible for getting me from A to B in a reasonable manner.


I have looked for any example I could find of a legal requirement for Amtrak to transport you to a specific location within a specific amount of time. I have never found anything like that anywhere. So far as I can tll, Amtrak can deliver you early, late, or never without much in the way of a legal recourse on your part. Well, aside from begging for assistance at Amtrak's sole discretion.



inspiration100 said:


> Also, it seems that this is the ONLY option I will not get charged for 3 zones? If I do the Chicago way, it takes me into Virginia (zone 3), even though I am not wanting a layover. Same with the DC option. I don't want the layover, I just want to get from A to B, while being on the train the longest time. This must be a new rule, it makes things much more complicated.


According to the rumor mill this massive program-altering change is the result of a single unnamed passenger who complained a little too loudly to one or more unnamed Amtrak employees about their AGR itinerary. One or more of these employees were so fed up he or she or they decided to change the rules for everyone as a result of a single passenger's bogus complaint. That's a pretty big reaction to one single incident, don't you think? It would seem that if you were a major business you'd plan something this big as part of a carefully researched and scheduled rule change instead of allowing a single obstinate passenger to provoke you into punishing everyone, right?



inspiration100 said:


> If I knew I'd be delayed 2 days in Los Angeles, that would be fine too, but all the uncertainties (and 3 zone rules) makes this trip almost impossible for me to take.


Join the club.


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## AlanB (Jul 5, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> inspiration100 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, it seems that this is the ONLY option I will not get charged for 3 zones? If I do the Chicago way, it takes me into Virginia (zone 3), even though I am not wanting a layover. Same with the DC option. I don't want the layover, I just want to get from A to B, while being on the train the longest time. This must be a new rule, it makes things much more complicated.
> ...


First, it's not a rumor.

Second, that Amtrak employee was the most senior person within the AGR program at Amtrak.

Third, it wasn't changed just because of that complaint. Amtrak had long known about the loop holes and other issues. The complaint was the straw that broke the camels back.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 5, 2012)

AlanB said:


> First, it's not a rumor. Second, that Amtrak employee was the most senior person within the AGR program at Amtrak. Third, it wasn't changed just because of that complaint. Amtrak had long known about the loop holes and other issues. The complaint was the straw that broke the camels back.


It's true that Amtrak had a problem with intentional abuse of their AGR program, this much is not in dispute, and you can read all about it right here on AU. Unfortunately Amtrak chose to solve this problem with a sledgehammer approach that punished everyone and spared no one. I'm sure you can appreciate how unfortunate this is for those of us who never sought to misuse or abuse the system in the first place. Even when I'm talking to AGR today I still get the feeling that my requests are viewed with suspicion or even contempt. When I call AGR I never know quite what to expect, but what I do know is if I have to ask for virtually anything that isn't offered freely by the reservations agent it will likely result in a dismissive or adversarial response. That's not a fun conversation in my book and it takes some of the joy of travel out of it for me. Maybe if I call back enough times Gomer Pyle will answer and give me whatever I want, but I'm not the sort of guy who enjoys begging some random call center employee for help with a loyalty system that views me as some sort of thief or thug.


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## AlanB (Jul 6, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> It's true that Amtrak had a problem with intentional abuse of their AGR program, this much is not in dispute, and you can read all about it right here on AU. Unfortunately Amtrak chose to solve this problem with a sledgehammer approach that punished everyone and spared no one.


It's a sledgehammer to you. Not everyone however sees it that way. And in Amtrak's case, it was the easy simple solution, rather than a far more complicated and expensive surgical solution.



Texas Sunset said:


> I'm sure you can appreciate how unfortunate this is for those of us who never sought to misuse or abuse the system in the first place.


Well seeing as how I never took a "loophole" trip, believe it or not, I personally don't find it to be all that unfortunate. I suppose that if I lived in Atlanta I might feel a bit different, even if again, I had never abused the system.



Texas Sunset said:


> Even when I'm talking to AGR today I still get the feeling that my requests are viewed with suspicion or even contempt. When I call AGR I never know quite what to expect, but what I do know is if I have to ask for virtually anything that isn't offered freely by the reservations agent it will likely result in a dismissive or adversarial response. That's not a fun conversation in my book and it takes some of the joy of travel out of it for me.


Funny, but I've never felt that way when calling. And I average at least two AGR reservations a year. Now in all fairness, perhaps my experience is a bit different since I can call the Select Plus line, instead of the general line.


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## inspiration100 (Jul 6, 2012)

In that case, I'm starting to lean towards a trip from SEA to San Antonio. I wish it would stop in Chicago, but this is a really nice, long route as well without the risks. Any thoughts on this route, taking the Texas Eagle, Zephyr, and Starlight?

I don't really understand the bus deal from Galesburg, IL to Springfield, IL. Any chance of going to Chicago and catching the train? Do AGR staff have the ability to modify routes as they see fit? Not saying they would, just curious.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 6, 2012)

AlanB said:


> It's a sledgehammer to you. Not everyone however sees it that way. And in Amtrak's case, it was the easy simple solution, rather than a far more complicated and expensive surgical solution.


You still never explained how it's _not_ a sledgehammer response.



AlanB said:


> Well seeing as how I never took a "loophole" trip, believe it or not, I personally don't find it to be all that unfortunate.


So you were paying the previously unheard of and still unpublished "four zone award" from day one? How did you manage that?



AlanB said:


> Funny, but I've never felt that way when calling. And I average at least two AGR reservations a year. Now in all fairness, perhaps my experience is a bit different since I can call the Select Plus line, instead of the general line.


I'll be happy to record a conversation with AGR so you can hear what they sound like when you call the generic line and try to request anything the computer doesn't spit out on its own. If you sound like you're brand new to the process they simply dismiss your silly request. If you sound like you know more than they expect you to they act like you're trying to trick them into doing something they're not supposed to.



inspiration100 said:


> In that case, I'm starting to lean towards a trip from SEA to San Antonio. I wish it would stop in Chicago, but this is a really nice, long route as well without the risks. Any thoughts on this route, taking the Texas Eagle, Zephyr, and Starlight?


I'm trying for the same thing in reverse. I did eventually manage to book such a trip by changing my dates around a sixth time after the AGR agents ran out of suggestions during my first five attempts. Jim Hudson has mentioned previously that he's made this exact trip as well so apparently it's quite doable. It's also one of the best two-zone awards I've found so far. Another good one is El Paso to Chicago by way of Los Angeles and Portland, but of course you're back to depending on the once-in-a-while Sunset Limited.



inspiration100 said:


> I don't really understand the bus deal from Galesburg, IL to Springfield, IL. Any chance of going to Chicago and catching the train?


Last I checked the timing is off. You would arrive after the connecting train has already departed. Beyond that I couldn't say why they schedule it that way, but presumably it's on purpose for one reason or another. Ideally you'd be able to stay in Chicago on your own dime, but good luck getting AGR to approve that. I don't see how a stopover in a gateway city on your own dime costs Amtrak any money or causes Amtrak any grief. If anything it should save Amtrak money by removing a connection they no longer have to guarantee. Unfortunately they don't seem to see it that way.



inspiration100 said:


> Do AGR staff have the ability to modify routes as they see fit? Not saying they would, just curious.


From what I understand AGR staff can technically build any routing they want. However, if they willingly ticket anything besides a published fare they will get in trouble in the process. Or at least that is what they have told me. They interpret this to mean the computer must build the itinerary for them. If it doesn't, for any reason at all, they will not build it themselves. Ever.


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## trainman74 (Jul 6, 2012)

inspiration100 said:


> So this makes planning very hard. If the connection between the SL and starlight gets delayed by 2 days, what are my options? Stay and wait in LA? Is that my only choice or will a guaranteed bus option be provided? I can't really plan a detailed trip with a 2 day change in plans very likely to happen with my job.


 

 

If the Starlight is already running late in northern California, they'll probably have passengers making the Sunset Limited connection get off in Martinez and take the San Joaquin train-bus combination to L.A.

If it loses time later, they may well try to arrange a connecting bus from a point along the CS's route to a point along the SL's route (say San Luis Obispo to San Bernardino).

If you do arrive in L.A. having missed the connection, instead of waiting 2 or 3 days for the next SL, given that your final destination is ATL, they may switch you to the next day's Southwest Chief, to connect in Chicago with the Capitol Limited, and then in Washington, D.C. with the Crescent. That'll be at least a 36-hour delay for you, though.


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## AlanB (Jul 6, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > It's a sledgehammer to you. Not everyone however sees it that way. And in Amtrak's case, it was the easy simple solution, rather than a far more complicated and expensive surgical solution.
> ...


Little point since you're going to see it the way you wish.



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Well seeing as how I never took a "loophole" trip, believe it or not, I personally don't find it to be all that unfortunate.
> ...


There is no such thing as a 4 zone award.

And all I meant is that I didn't do things like pay to go from New Orleans to Slidell, so that I could then book a 2 zone reward all the way to the west coast.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 6, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


Try me.



AlanB said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


If there is no such thing as a four zone award then how come there IS such a thing as a one-way four zone trip? Amtrak didn't just shut down the obviously abusive routings, that folks such as you or I would agree with and would never bother booking in the first place, they also ratcheted down on the interpretations of much more reasonable routings in the process. That's where my sledgehammer remark came from. I'm trying to spend my points as per the published rules and AGR representatives are telling me I can only travel on certain seemingly random days unless I am willing to pay cash, at which point any day of the week or month is suddenly available to me. Yeah, I think something may be seriously wrong here. I don't have the Select Plus option to compare this to, mainly because there's no easy way (or serious benefit) to earning status outside of a major commuter corridor.


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## Ispolkom (Jul 6, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> I'm trying to spend my points as per the published rules and AGR representatives are telling me I can only travel on certain seemingly random days


Where are these published rules you talk about? Please let me see them, because as far as I know they don't exist, at least they aren't published.

If you aren't willing to be told different things by different agents, almost as though they are throwing dice against your Charisma rating, AGR might not be for you.

If you aren't willing to be quoted three different rates for the same routing, AGR might not be for you.

If (and this is my point) you aren't willing to accept that AGR doesn't really know about long-distance awards, and most of their agents really don't know how to book them, because more than 90% of AGR awards are 1-zone coach awards, AGR might not be for you.

I booked 4 so-called loophole trips in the year leading up to their abolition on or about April 1, 2010 (notice how the vague the date is?), and one after that (heck, I haven't even taken that trip yet). I never had an easy time doing it before they were abolished, and even a harder time after that.

I like to think of AGR's award indeterminacy as a feature, not a bug, but if you don't, well, AGR might not be for you.

Remember, AGR is like honey badger. He don't care.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 7, 2012)

Ispolkom said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> > I'm trying to spend my points as per the published rules and AGR representatives are telling me I can only travel on certain seemingly random days
> ...


Best. Post. Ever. At least regarding AGR. :lol:

"Published" in the sense of being on the AGR website. That's all. -_-


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## AlanB (Jul 7, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> If there is no such thing as a four zone award then how come there IS such a thing as a one-way four zone trip?


What are you talking about?



Texas Sunset said:


> Amtrak didn't just shut down the obviously abusive routings, that folks such as you or I would agree with and would never bother booking in the first place, they also ratcheted down on the interpretations of much more reasonable routings in the process. That's where my sledgehammer remark came from. I'm trying to spend my points as per the published rules and AGR representatives are telling me I can only travel on certain seemingly random days unless I am willing to pay cash, at which point any day of the week or month is suddenly available to me.


Again, what are you talking about? Please provide details.



Texas Sunset said:


> I don't have the Select Plus option to compare this to, mainly because there's no easy way (or serious benefit) to earning status outside of a major commuter corridor.


Funny, Penny lives in Orlando way outside of any major commuter corridor and she has Select Plus Status. Joe Hess doesn't live on a major commuter corridor in Michigan and he's got it too. And I'm sure that there are others that I'm not thinking of right now.

Yes, I'm not saying that it's easy to get to Select Plus if you aren't on a corridor. But it can be done!


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## pennyk (Jul 7, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Funny, Penny lives in Orlando way outside of any major commuter corridor and she has Select Plus Status. Joe Hess doesn't live on a major commuter corridor in Michigan and he's got it too. And I'm sure that there are others that I'm not thinking of right now.
> 
> Yes, I'm not saying that it's easy to get to Select Plus if you aren't on a corridor. But it can be done!


Correct. I am Select Plus.  I was Select for 2010 and Select Plus for 2011 and 2012. The way I am going this year, I likely will be Select Plus in 2013.


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## Ispolkom (Jul 7, 2012)

Texas Sunset said:


> "Published" in the sense of being on the AGR website. That's all. -_-


The important rules aren't there, as far as I know. Where are terms like "one-zone award" or "two-zone award" defined, for instance?

Definitions? AGR don't need no definitions.


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## PRR 60 (Jul 7, 2012)

AlanB said:


> Funny, Penny lives in Orlando way outside of any major commuter corridor and she has Select Plus Status. Joe Hess doesn't live on a major commuter corridor in Michigan and he's got it too. And I'm sure that there are others that I'm not thinking of right now.
> 
> Yes, I'm not saying that it's easy to get to Select Plus if you aren't on a corridor. But it can be done!


It can be done if you are willing to spend $5000 riding Amtrak every year.

Even though Penny and Joe do not live on a "corridor", Amtrak's schedule permits both to make reasonably-priced, one-day "points runs". That makes a huge difference. If you are not lucky enough to have one-day opportunities like that (and most off-corridor locations do not), then your options for building TQP's for less than 2 per dollar are very limited.

The good news is that Select Plus is pretty much worthless for non-corridor passengers, excepting those who fly UA and can use the Club access. For those off the NEC, it does not make much sense to shell-out good money to essentially buy-up to S+ when the dollar value of the benefits is worth only a small fraction of what you paid.


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