# Best Chicago-Florida Route?



## railgeekteen

In my opinion via Atlanta is the best option.


----------



## Qapla

Jacksonville to Atlanta for the leg south of Atlanta - there are more options north of Atlanta than just the one through Indianapolis depending on available rails


----------



## railgeekteen

Qapla said:


> Jacksonville to Atlanta for the leg south of Atlanta - there are more options north of Atlanta than just the one through Indianapolis depending on available rails


 The traditional Floridan route through Bloomington does not exist anymore unfortunately.


----------



## MARC Rider

I don't know about where the rails are, but it seems that Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta would maximize the number of larger intermediate markets that the train would serve. Anything further east would have to go through a whole lot more of Appalachia, slowing down the train, and anything running further west is taking the train out of its way, increasing travel time. Plus, both alternatives bypass all those big intermediate markets.


----------



## Anthony V

MARC Rider said:


> I don't know about where the rails are, but it seems that Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta would maximize the number of larger intermediate markets that the train would serve. Anything further east would have to go through a whole lot more of Appalachia, slowing down the train, and anything running further west is taking the train out of its way, increasing travel time. Plus, both alternatives bypass all those big intermediate markets.


While I favor the first route in your post the most, in reality, the most feasible way to re-establish Chicago-Florida service would be to extend the CONO to Florida, in the process restoring the long-awaited service along the Gulf Coast. This would be because there would be less new train miles than with any of the other options.


----------



## Dakota 400

I voted "other".

Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-etc. 

I'd love to include Dayton in the Indianapolis-Cincinnati segment, but it would not be reasonable to do so. A bit too much out of the way, plus Amtrak already uses the route between Indianapolis and Cincinnati.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I'd say Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati - Lexington - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville all on the NS.

I know the Cincinnati line is great... how's the line Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati?


----------



## Qapla

crescent-zephyr said:


> I'd say Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati - Lexington - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville all on the NS.



You might need to put Savannah in between Macon and Jax - although going through Valdosta and Lake City would be nice.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> You might need to put Savannah in between Macon and Jax



There are three NS routes from Macon that could be used. Macon - Savannah, Macon - Brunswick, and Macon - Jacksonville. I'm not sure which one is the quickest but I would think via Savannah would be the slowest.


----------



## WWW

Adding to your poll ?

Best route economically
Fewest connections fast timeliness (point of connection WAS about a half hour connection - 3 times weekly)
Presume 100 % by rail - no motor coach connections

Just a brief glance the Cardinal 50 and the Silver Meteor 97 would fit these requirements with a 30 minute WAS connection


----------



## jiml

Anthony V said:


> While I favor the first route in your post the most, in reality, the most feasible way to re-establish Chicago-Florida service would be to extend the CONO to Florida, in the process restoring the long-awaited service along the Gulf Coast. This would be because there would be less new train miles than with any of the other options.


This would certainly be the lowest cost option from a number of perspectives.


----------



## west point

Macon - Savannah is dark territory which limits speeds to 59 MPH. Atl - Macon by the old Cof GA line is also now dark. It is the intermediate cities that are most important. I would expect that the population of every city is considered within a stop's 25(?) mile location. 
It is disappointing that CHI - Ciccnnattii routes are so poor.


----------



## joelkfla

Anthony V said:


> While I favor the first route in your post the most, in reality, the most feasible way to re-establish Chicago-Florida service would be to extend the CONO to Florida, in the process restoring the long-awaited service along the Gulf Coast. This would be because there would be less new train miles than with any of the other options.


I'm all for that. I would love to have direct access from FL to New Orleans, and on to LA even if it were to require an overnight in The Big Easy.


----------



## Siegmund

If I brought back the Floridian on a somewhat traditional diagonal route, I'd be happy with most any routing that put it through Atlanta rather than Birmingham. Given a free hand I think my first pick would be Cincinnati-Knoxville-Atlanta but I wouldn't mind Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta either. I have hopes of seeing an Atlanta mini-hub someday: a second NY-Atlanta train like the Palmetto (maybe even two of them, one via Lynchburg and one via Raleigh), plus service to Florida and Chicago.

Purely from a speed standpoint, Chicago-DC-Florida and Chicago-New Orleans or Mobile-Florida are just about a tie with the diagonal route.


----------



## bms

Nashville is booming (or at least was before the pandemic) and is a great town to visit. I think Nashville-Atlanta is a critical missing link in the network and would be a great intermediate city pair for such a train.


----------



## Qapla

Running from Atlanta-Macon-Lake City-Gainesville-Ocala-Orlando would be nice it they hadn't pulled some of that track


----------



## crescent-zephyr

bms said:


> Nashville is booming (or at least was before the pandemic) and is a great town to visit. I think Nashville-Atlanta is a critical missing link in the network and would be a great intermediate city pair for such a train.



The existing CSX line isn't ideal... Nashville to Chattanooga is not an ideal route by rail or by car. I would love to ride that route though, some beautiful scenery. 

I think a Chicago to Florida Train should try to hit the most population centers in the shortest amount of time... Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati - Lexington - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville sure seems like it would be a knockout to me. 

A Chicago - Atlanta train could meet that route in Chattanooga or Atlanta... would be the best of both worlds. 

I do agree Nashville is a VERY happening city that could use rail transportation. Music City Star was started for dirt cheap and yet they can't get any support to expand it, which is a real shame.


----------



## railiner

I would be happy to see the Floridian back on it's original Amtrak route, except for the Chicago-Indianapolis route, that would use the currently used one....


The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)


----------



## bms

crescent-zephyr said:


> The existing CSX line isn't ideal... Nashville to Chattanooga is not an ideal route by rail or by car. I would love to ride that route though, some beautiful scenery.
> 
> I think a Chicago to Florida Train should try to hit the most population centers in the shortest amount of time... Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati - Lexington - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville sure seems like it would be a knockout to me.
> 
> A Chicago - Atlanta train could meet that route in Chattanooga or Atlanta... would be the best of both worlds.
> 
> I do agree Nashville is a VERY happening city that could use rail transportation. Music City Star was started for dirt cheap and yet they can't get any support to expand it, which is a real shame.



The route certainly doesn't look too straight, even going through Alabama, but I did see articles from January where Amtrak proposed a Nashville-Atlanta corridor with a running time of 6 hours, 30 minutes. No mention of how much state money it would take, and my guess is neither state legislature would vote to pay anything.


----------



## toddinde

Dakota 400 said:


> I voted "other".
> 
> Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-etc.
> 
> I'd love to include Dayton in the Indianapolis-Cincinnati segment, but it would not be reasonable to do so. A bit too much out of the way, plus Amtrak already uses the route between Indianapolis and Cincinnati.


That’s a lot of backtracking from Cincy to Louisville, but how about this: A Chicago section through Louisville, and a Detroit section through Cincy combining in Nashville.


----------



## toddinde

Just being a nit picker, but the original Floridian did go through Indianapolis; the South Wind Route.


----------



## railiner

toddinde said:


> Just being a nit picker, but the original Floridian did go through Indianapolis; the South Wind Route.


Yes, but not the same way the Cardinal goes now...I would use the current Cardinal route, and then the original Floridian route from there on.

And the first Amtrak South Wind did not use PRR's South Wind route from Chicago to Indianapolis via Logansport...it used NYC's "Big Four" route, from IC's Central Station via Kankakee...it later switched to the original PRR South Wind route. That was the beginning of the constant rerouting of the Florida and Cincinnati routes across Indiana for years in search of "good track"...


----------



## me_little_me

bms said:


> The route certainly doesn't look too straight, even going through Alabama, but I did see articles from January where Amtrak proposed a Nashville-Atlanta corridor with a running time of 6 hours, 30 minutes. No mention of how much state money it would take, and my guess is neither state legislature would vote to pay anything.


Interesting that Amtrak is pushing for replacing the LD sleeper trains with city pairs only to have them need state funding which is likely to fail even in normal times, much less in reduced state income/increased state expense times. Methinks the city pair concept is set up for failure.

I think a Nashville to Atlanta train would be a great idea but a failure because, while Atlanta has one other train (which is too little), Nashville has zero so although you can get between these two cities, getting anywhere else is a problem. Now, if there was another train connecting to the CONO and/or TE from Nashville, that would add to its value as would a connection from Atlanta to the Silvers.


----------



## Dakota 400

toddinde said:


> That’s a lot of backtracking from Cincy to Louisville, but how about this: A Chicago section through Louisville, and a Detroit section through Cincy combining in Nashville.



I like your suggestion. A Detroit section through Cincinnati would probably go through Dayton. If so, we might be able to finally get a return of rail service.


----------



## west point

IMO what is needed is an incremental approach. I would use the CNO to where it could split and the Florida train would go to Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville. Combine with a Silver train on to Miami. Later when a HrSR line is built from CHI = Kentucky border then reroute to either Nashville or Chattanooga. CNO to Nashville will need track work . The old NC&SL route that crosses CNO just south of Fulton might be a choice ?

What is needed for this route needs is the highest populations of the stops within a certain distance ( maybe 20 - 25 miles ). Only ATL has any kind of rail service to make that distance longer.

Again it is all about getting much more equipment. 5 or 6 train sets.

Ideally CHI - Cincinatti can be the eventual route. That way then new Detroit , Cleveland, Toledo could all combine at CIN. And intermediate cities such as Indianapolis, Dayton , Columbus can come in play. It is all about the intermediate cities having coach passengers and sleepers mostly the 1000+ mile


----------



## railiner

Best to avoid "combining" of long distance trains, if at all possible. It's a prescription for reliability issues. Once upon a time, it was common practice everywhere, but schedules were more reliable back then, and multiple frequencies on many routes allowed fall-back options, if necessary...


----------



## west point

Combining LD trains will of course require schedule flexibility. IMO require at least 3 hours for the "expermental" Florida train Otherwise run as an extra section if does not reach the combining points. within the departure of the regular present trains Much work with freight RRs .i


----------



## Qapla

If there could actually be a good CHI-JAX route - that would be a good time to add/create an Auto Train stop in JAX so there could be an AT from Sanford to CHI

Of course, instead of splitting/combining trains in JAX - there could always be a 2nd AT that runs from Sanford to CHI

I mean - if we are going to dream .... why not dream big


----------



## crescent-zephyr

It would make the most sense to run multiple trains rather than splitting off cars. There shouldn't be the need for 1 magical train route that links several non-served major amtrak cities AND fills in a Chicago to Florida gap, but yet here we are. 

Ideally, there would be a Chicago to Florida train via Cincinnati and Atlanta (NS) and another via Louisville, Nashville, and Birmingham (CSX). Even better if there was also a Memphis to Atlanta train and a New Orleans to Florida train.


----------



## Palmetto

You're forgetting, though, that Amtrak hates, just hates, splitting and combining trains. It goes against their "take the easy way out" philosophy of operating.


----------



## Larry H.

All the proposals are interesting to think about. But, I almost bet Amtrak is not interested in anything long distance since they are already trying to wreck as much of the overnight trains as they can. No doubt many of the listed cities would help generate revenues on the system, but is Amtrak really interested anymore in long distance. If they were they wouldn't have decided after spending lots of money on new wonderful diners to not even put them in to service for the purpose they were designed for.


----------



## toddinde

railiner said:


> Best to avoid "combining" of long distance trains, if at all possible. It's a prescription for reliability issues. Once upon a time, it was common practice everywhere, but schedules were more reliable back then, and multiple frequencies on many routes allowed fall-back options, if necessary...


We have to fix the reliability issue anyway. The Empire Builder and Texas Eagle do it. I think the US has two irrational phobias; the first is splitting trains; the second is backing trains into stub end stations. Both are common practices in Europe. Maybe we need lessons in how to operate railroads from the Europeans?


----------



## MisterUptempo

So it looks like the FRA agrees with the majority of respondents to the poll.

The FRA is currently in the midst of Phase II of the Midwest Regional Rail Plan (more on that in a future post), and with the many permutations now proposed, connecting to Nashville via Indianapolis and Louisville, linking the Midwest with the Southeast, has emerged as having a higher priority than Midwest-exclusive routes, like the 3C or CHI-OMA.

A slide from a PowerPoint presented on September 22nd shows how and where Chicago-Florida might happen-



As the image in the post won't resize properly, click on this link for a full-size version.


----------



## jiml

MisterUptempo said:


> So it looks like the FRA agrees with the majority of respondents to the poll.
> 
> The FRA is currently in the midst of Phase II of the Midwest Regional Rail Plan (more on that in a future post), and with the many permutations now proposed, connecting to Nashville via Indianapolis and Louisville, linking the Midwest with the Southeast, has emerged as having a higher priority than Midwest-exclusive routes, like the 3C or CHI-OMA.
> 
> A slide from a PowerPoint presented on September 22nd shows how and where Chicago-Florida might happen-
> View attachment 19166
> 
> 
> As the image in the post won't resize properly, click on this link for a full-size version.


There's a lot of interesting observations to make from that diagram. Too bad it doesn't represent reality.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

toddinde said:


> We have to fix the reliability issue anyway. The Empire Builder and Texas Eagle do it. I think the US has two irrational phobias; the first is splitting trains; the second is backing trains into stub end stations. Both are common practices in Europe. Maybe we need lessons in how to operate railroads from the Europeans?



It's not a phobia, both take extra time.


----------



## Qapla

The back into Tampa Union Station every time - when the weather stops trains from Florida to NY but leaves the state running, they back into JAX


----------



## me_little_me

crescent-zephyr said:


> It's not a phobia, both take extra time.


And, Lord knows, they wouldn't want to ruin their on-outstanding time LD performance statistics unlike the Europeans who always run late trains.


----------



## me_little_me

jiml said:


> There's a lot of interesting observations to make from that diagram. Too bad it doesn't represent reality.


I, for one, appreciate your excellent explanation of why. Helped make it clear to me.


----------



## Qapla

According to posts in another thread there is consideration of a [daily] in-state route of JAX-Miami via Orlando/Tampa ... this would require backing into JAX and TPA every time the train runs


----------



## Seaboard92

MARC Rider said:


> I don't know about where the rails are, but it seems that Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta would maximize the number of larger intermediate markets that the train would serve. Anything further east would have to go through a whole lot more of Appalachia, slowing down the train, and anything running further west is taking the train out of its way, increasing travel time. Plus, both alternatives bypass all those big intermediate markets.



The routes aren't really that bad. Here is a breakdown of the traffic levels and quality of line. 

Chicago-Indianapolis: On the Cardinal the route doesn't have too much freight traffic between Indy and Chicago. But the approach to Chicago is a pain with four or five different host railroads. As far as historical railroads it is EX Monon, EX New York Central, and around Indy proper EX Pennsylvania Railroad panhandle. 

Indianapolis-Louisville: This is now the Louisville & Indiana Railroad which is a shortline. However they maintain the track to 40-45 MPH. It is a relatively good shortline. CSX also has invested significant money to rebuild the line so they can route overflow trains from Seymour to Louisville. The line is signaled and relatively fluid. EX Pennsylvania Railroad. 

Louisville-Nashville: This is a pretty busy mainline for CSX. It is part of the north south line. Track speed somewhere between 50-60 MPH. EX Louisville & Nashville. 

Nashville-Atlanta: This is a very busy mainline for CSX with a decent track speed of 50-60 mph. It is the mainline from Florida to Chicago. Also Chattanooga is in the middle of this section which is a good population market. EX Nashville, Chattanooga & , St. Louis Railroad (controlled by the Louisville & Nashville). 

Atlanta-Jacksonville: There are seven different routes that can be used. I will give a quick briefing on all of them. 

Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville: This is a Norfolk Southern routing that goes Atlanta-Macon-Cordelle-Valdosta-Jacksonville. It is a fairly busy route for intermodal between the midwest and Florida. Track Speed goes up to 60 MPH. EX Southern Railway and Central of Georgia. 

Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville via Americus, Albany: This is also another Norfolk Southern routing with trackspeed between 50-60 mph. This routing goes Atlanta-Macon-Americus-Albany-Valdosta-Florida. It isn't quite as busy between Macon and Valdosta as the routing via Cordelle. EX Central of Georgia and Southern Railway. 

Atlanta-Macon-Jessup-Jacksonville: It is Norfolk Southern Atlanta-Jessup then CSX Jessup-Florida. This is not nearly as busy of a line as the Cordelle or Americus lines and has a lower speed 45-50 on the NS. But on CSX's ex Atlantic Coastline it can get up to 79 MPH. But there aren't a lot of decent towns for infill stops on this route. 

Atlanta-Macon-Savannah-Jacksonville: This is Norfolk Southern's intermodal mainline in and out of Savannah. Track Speed is around 50 MPH if I recall. This would be a great state supported route but the added time to get to Savannah, then jet south on the former Atlantic Coastline just isn't worth it. The ACL route is 79 MPH however. 

Atlanta-Cordelle-Waycross-Jacksonville: This is the CSX mainline between the midwest and Florida. Track speed in places gets up to 60 mph. However it is a very busy line. Trains pass our office in Cordelle about every fifteen minutes during the day mostly on CSX. 

Atlanta-Montgomery-Waycross-Jacksonville: This is an out of the way routing but adds a large population center. EX Atlanta, & West Point, Western Railway of Alabama, and Atlantic Coastline. All CSX and a track speed of around 50 mph if I recall correctly. But it adds a significant amount of milage to the route. 

Once in Florida it is best to follow the existing route to Orlando, Tampa, and Miami. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> I'd say Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati - Lexington - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville all on the NS.
> 
> I know the Cincinnati line is great... how's the line Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati?



There are two routes you can take between Chicago and Fort Wayne. 

The EX Pennsylvania Railroad a bit more direct than the former Nickel Plate Road. The EX Pennsy is the Chicago, Fort Wayne, & Eastern Railroad which I believe has a track speed of 45 MPH. It is one of the least busy lines in and out of Chicago. NS and CSX both have trackage rights on it I believe. 

The Ex Nickel Plate Road route which is owned by Norfolk Southern. I want to say its 45 or 50 MPH. But it is not nearly as direct because it detours Argos, IN. It has more traffic than the EX Pennsylvania line however. 

Fort Wayne-Cincinnati: For starters you will need to install a connection track in Lima, OH because there isn't one in the right directon. 

Fort Wayne-Lima: On the EX Pennsylvania Railroad mainline on the Chicago, Fort Wayne, & Eastern Railroad with a track speed of 45 MPH. Not a lot of freight on the line. 

Lima-Dayton-Cincinnati: On the EX Baltimore & Ohio Railroad's Cincinnatian Route. It is a very busy CSX Mainline with a track speed of up to 60 mph. It is the main route south out of Detroit. 



crescent-zephyr said:


> The existing CSX line isn't ideal... Nashville to Chattanooga is not an ideal route by rail or by car. I would love to ride that route though, some beautiful scenery.
> 
> I think a Chicago to Florida Train should try to hit the most population centers in the shortest amount of time... Chicago - Ft. Wayne - Cincinnati - Lexington - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville sure seems like it would be a knockout to me.
> 
> A Chicago - Atlanta train could meet that route in Chattanooga or Atlanta... would be the best of both worlds.
> 
> I do agree Nashville is a VERY happening city that could use rail transportation. Music City Star was started for dirt cheap and yet they can't get any support to expand it, which is a real shame.



The line south of Cincinnati-Atlanta via Lexington, and Knoxville is a very good route. It is a very busy mainline but I believe the track speed is 60 MPH. 



toddinde said:


> That’s a lot of backtracking from Cincy to Louisville, but how about this: A Chicago section through Louisville, and a Detroit section through Cincy combining in Nashville.


I think that would make a lot of sense. It would be a scenario similar to the Empire Builder. The Seattle section is crewed and maintained by Seattle as it's home terminal. While the Portland Sections home terminal is Portland.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

The best Chicago - Florida route is the current _Cardinal _route to CIN and then the former L&N _Flamingo_ or SOU _Ponce de Leon_ route to JAX. The former SOU is faster, but the former L&N has less freight traffic. Heck, I heard that the CSX might sell it, so if Amtrak was run like a business (which they're not, but for the sake of making a point) I'd buy out that line and charge fees from the freights running between Cincinnati and Cartersville.

Forget the Indianapolis and Louisville route! The tracks are in poor shape and you're going to end up passing through at least 1 of the big cities in the middle of the night anyway. With the route I proposed above, you can run Cincinnati - Knoxville overnight on the L&N via Paris and barely miss any population.

You're going to miss Lexington with the L&N but it's fairly easy to run a shuttle van between Lexington and Paris or Winchester. You could also run a shuttle van between Chattanooga and Ocoee or Etowah.

If you wanted to serve more population then you could run legs from Detroit and Cleveland to Cincinnati too.


----------



## WICT106

Here we go again  Travel to Florida , Chicago to Florida ,


----------



## crescent-zephyr

WICT106 said:


> Here we go again  Travel to Florida , Chicago to Florida ,



Those posts are from 2008... 12 years ago.


----------



## jiml

crescent-zephyr said:


> Those posts are from 2008... 12 years ago.


The more things change, the more they remain the same.


----------



## railgeekteen

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The best Chicago - Florida route is the current _Cardinal _route to CIN and then the former L&N _Flamingo_ or SOU _Ponce de Leon_ route to JAX. The former SOU is faster, but the former L&N has less freight traffic. Heck, I heard that the CSX might sell it, so if Amtrak was run like a business (which they're not, but for the sake of making a point) I'd buy out that line and charge fees from the freights running between Cincinnati and Cartersville.
> 
> Forget the Indianapolis and Louisville route! The tracks are in poor shape and you're going to end up passing through at least 1 of the big cities in the middle of the night anyway. With the route I proposed above, you can run Cincinnati - Knoxville overnight on the L&N via Paris and barely miss any population.
> 
> You're going to miss Lexington with the L&N but it's fairly easy to run a shuttle van between Lexington and Paris or Winchester. You could also run a shuttle van between Chattanooga and Ocoee or Etowah.
> 
> If you wanted to serve more population then you could run legs from Detroit and Cleveland to Cincinnati too.


It might be slower, but it would be possible to serve Lexington as tracks there exist.


----------



## WICT106

crescent-zephyr said:


> Those posts are from 2008... 12 years ago.


Yes, but they contain several reasons why any route between Chicago and Florida hasn't been attempted since 1979.


----------



## Qapla

You would think that 12-41 years would be enough time to have solved/corrected/fixed any problems/reasons a route between Chicago and Florida was/is not feasible


----------



## railiner

Qapla said:


> You would think that 12-41 years would be enough time to have solved/corrected/fixed any problems/reasons a route between Chicago and Florida was/is not feasible


Yes, you would....but in reality, the choices available were probably better back in 1979, then they are today, with the 'rationalization' of routes, and double track thru the years, resulting in more congestion on what remains...


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

WICT106 said:


> Yes, but they contain several reasons why any route between Chicago and Florida hasn't been attempted since 1979.



The routes mentioned in 2008 don't include my suggestion for the L&N _Flamingo_. PSR has also reduced the freights between Cincinnati and Cartersville since 2008.



railgeekteen said:


> It might be slower, but it would be possible to serve Lexington as tracks there exist.



If you wanted to serve Lexington then you could use the CNO&TP (aka the former _Ponce de Leon_) route although you'd miss Knoxville. The CNO&TP also serves Chattanooga. Otherwise you could take a branch line from Lexington to join the L&N at Winchester and continue on the _Flamingo_ route. Or you could serve all 3 (Lexington, Knoxville, and Chattanooga) but spent a bunch of extra time.

The most cost-effective solution would likely be to run the _Flamingo_ and pay CSX a small amount of money for a route that's underused anyway, and run Connecting Buses from Lexington and Chattanooga. Knoxville is the largest city between Cincinnati and Atlanta.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

Seaboard92 said:


> Atlanta-Jacksonville: There are seven different routes that can be used. I will give a quick briefing on all of them.



The "best" route would likely be the NS former _Ponce de Leon_ route via Macon, Cordele, Tifton, and Valdosta. The most cost-effective route would likely be the Atlanta South District to Macon and Brunswick District to Jesup. It's slow but you could make up the speed between Jesup and Jacksonville. It's also straight so you could upgrade it to 79 mph in the future.

Finally, you could probably use the Brunswick District for next to nothing since it has so little freight traffic.

The NS via Albany doesn't seem to offer any advantage over the above 2 routes, the CSX bypasses Macon which is a major population center, and the Montgomery route is way too long. The Savannah route is also too long.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> If you wanted to serve Lexington then you could use the CNO&TP (aka the former _Ponce de Leon_) route although you'd miss Knoxville. The CNO&TP also serves Chattanooga.



You could choose Knoxville and bypass Downtown Chattanooga with a stop at Ooltewah if you wanted.


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

crescent-zephyr said:


> You could choose Knoxville and bypass Downtown Chattanooga with a stop at Ooltewah if you wanted.



The CSX Etowah Subdivision would still be preferable because a stop at Ooltewah would need a back-up move from the NS Knoxville District to the NS Atlanta North District.

If you really wanted to get closer to Chattanooga then I'd stop at Cleveland and take the Cohutta District to Cohutta, the Atlanta North District to Dalton, and then the W&A Subdivision into Atlanta.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The CSX Etowah Subdivision would still be preferable because a stop at Ooltewah would need a back-up move from the NS Knoxville District to the NS Atlanta North District.
> 
> If you really wanted to get closer to Chattanooga then I'd stop at Cleveland and take the Cohutta District to Cohutta, the Atlanta North District to Dalton, and then the W&A Subdivision into Atlanta.



Oh yeah, I was thinking the split was in Ooltewah. Probably best to just bypass Knoxville.

All of the routes would have pros and cons, it's really a shame we don't have trains operating on most of these.


----------



## jruff001

By the new CHI-CLE-PIT-PHL-NYP high speed route, connecting to the new NYP-DC-Raleigh-Florida high speed route via the upgraded Harrisburg-Baltimore Susquehanna River cutoff.


----------



## toddinde

Amtrak said last week they aren’t interested. The Amtrak rep said a Chicago to Florida one seat ride isn’t in the cards. Sad.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

toddinde said:


> Amtrak said last week they aren’t interested. The Amtrak rep said a Chicago to Florida one seat ride isn’t in the cards. Sad.



The next Amtrak president may love the idea though... the revolving door.


----------



## Qapla

Even a two seat ride that goes thru Atlanta instead of DC would be nice

Some sort of Chicago-Atlanta train and Atlanta-Jax train


----------



## Swadian Hardcore

crescent-zephyr said:


> Oh yeah, I was thinking the split was in Ooltewah. Probably best to just bypass Knoxville.
> 
> All of the routes would have pros and cons, it's really a shame we don't have trains operating on most of these.



It'd be redundant to operate trains on "most of these" routes and why would you bypass Knoxville? Knoxville is the biggest metro area between Cincinnati and Atlanta.

The most cost effective route is: Cincinnati - Winchester - Knoxville - Cleveland - Dalton - Cartersville - Atlanta - Macon - Jesup. You're going to hit the most population for the lowest cost.

Name it the _Flamingo_ and run it 3 times a week. Truncate the _Cardinal_ back to Washington, DC so that you can use Superliners on both, and combine the 2 between Chicago and Cincinnati to save money.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Swadian Hardcore said:


> It'd be redundant to operate trains on "most of these" routes and why would you bypass Knoxville? Knoxville is the biggest metro area between Cincinnati and Atlanta.
> 
> The most cost effective route is: Cincinnati - Winchester - Knoxville - Cleveland - Dalton - Cartersville - Atlanta - Macon - Jesup. You're going to hit the most population for the lowest cost.
> 
> Name it the _Flamingo_ and run it 3 times a week. Truncate the _Cardinal_ back to Washington, DC so that you can use Superliners on both, and combine the 2 between Chicago and Cincinnati to save money.



I don't think it would be redundant to have multiple Chicago - Florida trains hitting different markets. 

There is no possible way that any of us can know what the most cost-effective route is. It depends on way too many factors that we are not aware of. I think keeping to 1 host railroad, with a railroad that is in the best shape for fast passenger service, and that can hit the most major cities should all be factors which is why I like the all NS Cincinnati-Chattanooga route. But as I said, there are pros and cons to each. 

I don't want to bypass Knoxville, that's why I mentioned routing the train through Knoxville... it's just out of the way. Would be more direct to stay on the main through Dayton and go through Chattanooga. It doesn't make sense to hit both Knox and Chatt directly, so pick the one that makes the most sense time-wise. Chattanooga and Knoxville are almost identical population-wise.


----------



## Seaboard92

Honestly if I were to put this together I would still stick to the Chicago-Indy-Louisville-Nashville-Atlanta-Macon-Valdosta-Jacksonville-South Florida route. 

With a section coming out of Detroit. And if I can find the time between my two large projects I'm working on I would make a dummy timetable to show you guys just how fast it would be. That will come sometime soon I promise.


----------



## MARC Rider

jruff001 said:


> By the new CHI-CLE-PIT-PHL-NYP high speed route, connecting to the new NYP-DC-Raleigh-Florida high speed route via the upgraded Harrisburg-Baltimore Susquehanna River cutoff.


What do you mean "Harrisburg-Baltimore Susquehanna River Cutoff?" We obviously need to rebuild the Northern Central Railroad between Baltimore and Harrisburg as a high speed line that includes extra tracks for commuter service, too.


----------



## Dakota 400

Swadian Hardcore said:


> The most cost effective route is: Cincinnati - Winchester - Knoxville - Cleveland - Dalton - Cartersville - Atlanta - Macon - Jesup. You're going to hit the most population for the lowest cost.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Why Cleveland and Dalton with no stop in Chattanooga? Potential passengers from the Dalton/Cleveland area could easily get to Chattanooga to board the train.
> 
> 
> 
> crescent-zephyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to bypass Knoxville, that's why I mentioned routing the train through Knoxville... it's just out of the way. Would be more direct to stay on the main through Dayton and go through Chattanooga. It doesn't make sense to hit both Knox and Chatt directly, so pick the one that makes the most sense time-wise. Chattanooga and Knoxville are almost identical population-wise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I support your thinking. One reason for including Knoxville would be to hopefully obtain some patronage from the students attending the University of Tennessee.
> 
> However, such considerations don't seem to be attractive to Amtrak's schedulers. The Cardinal goes through Oxford, Ohio--the home home of Miami University--without making even a flag stop. Over the years, there has been efforts made to get a flag stop in that community with no success.
Click to expand...


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Knoxville to Atlanta would be more direct with only a Cleveland and Dalton stop. 

Chattanooga also has colleges, and you can’t hit them both without backtracking. Ideally all of the cities would be connected by rail and you wouldn’t have to choose. 

If the DC - Bristol train ever happens it could get extended to Chattanooga via Knoxville and then the Florida train could come down the Cincinnati line. 

Even better, a second Florida train could come down through Nashville and Birmingham.


----------



## ehbowen

Seaboard92 said:


> Honestly if I were to put this together I would still stick to the Chicago-Indy-Louisville-Nashville-Atlanta-Macon-Valdosta-Jacksonville-South Florida route.
> 
> With a section coming out of Detroit. And if I can find the time between my two large projects I'm working on I would make a dummy timetable to show you guys just how fast it would be. That will come sometime soon I promise.


I'd like to see that. I've been toying with the idea of a "Dream Trains" section on Streamliner Schedules, but I'd like to have more than just my own dreams!


----------



## Seaboard92

ehbowen said:


> I'd like to see that. I've been toying with the idea of a "Dream Trains" section on Streamliner Schedules, but I'd like to have more than just my own dreams!


I could help you with that project. Of course between my many projects I have little time. But I would be willing to give some of my time for them.


----------



## dogbert617

Dakota 400 said:


> I voted "other".
> 
> Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-etc.
> 
> I'd love to include Dayton in the Indianapolis-Cincinnati segment, but it would not be reasonable to do so. A bit too much out of the way, plus Amtrak already uses the route between Indianapolis and Cincinnati.



I wish the National Limited could be brought back. That way, Dayton would have service again. Ditto with Columbus, as well.


----------



## Palmetto

OT: I believe part of the route of the National Limited has been ripped up. Can someone confirm?


----------



## Seaboard92

Palmetto said:


> OT: I believe part of the route of the National Limited has been ripped up. Can someone confirm?



Do you have a schedule I can look at? Then I'll tell you what is around and what isn't.


----------



## jiml




----------



## railiner

Palmetto said:


> OT: I believe part of the route of the National Limited has been ripped up. Can someone confirm?


The route between Pittsburgh and Columbus is partially gone...I believe most of the rest is intact...


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> The route between Pittsburgh and Columbus is partially gone...I believe most of the rest is intact...



I know that at least part of the route between Dayton and Columbus is gone; tracks removed and the "path" is now a bikeway. There might be other tracks between the two cities of which I am unaware. (Rather think there are when there was some serious discussion of a Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati train about a decade+ ago.)


----------



## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> I know that at least part of the route between Dayton and Columbus is gone; tracks removed and the "path" is now a bikeway. There might be other tracks between the two cities of which I am unaware. (Rather think there are when there was some serious discussion of a Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati train about a decade+ ago.)


Between Columbus, Indianapolis, and St. Louis, both PRR and NYC had routes...
Penn Central started “rationalizing” them, and later Conrail finished them, at least as far as through mainlines.


----------



## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> Between Columbus, Indianapolis, and St. Louis, both PRR and NYC had routes...
> Penn Central started “rationalizing” them, and later Conrail finished them, at least as far as through mainlines.



Probably the former NYC tracks between Columbus and Dayton still exist? (Not sure what you meant by "rationalizing" them and then "Conrail finished them".)

I recall traveling on PRR trains between Columbus en route to Chicago that stopped at Dayton. The National Limited, if I recall correctly, operated between DAY and CMH on the former PRR tracks. 

In the community in which I live South of Dayton, our NS mainline was once a New York Central line. Remember back in the late 1960's seeing NYC's Ohio State Limited (Cincinnati-New York) speeding through our town. (Also being surprised at seeing the "hodge-podge" of different passenger cars on the train in its final years of service.)


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

How do I vote for the Capital Limited from CHI to WAS, and then a Silver from WAS to Florida (ORL?).


----------



## bms

A pretty good Ohio Rail Transportation Map is found here.

According to this 2009 plan, the 3-C route was supposed to follow Norfolk Southern from Cleveland to Berea, CSX from Berea to Columbus, and Norfolk Southern from Columbus to Dayton. As of 2009, 58 miles of the line from Columbus to Dayton was single-tracked including speed restrictions of 15, 20, or 25 mph through Springfield.


----------



## Qapla

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> How do I vote for the Capital Limited from CHI to WAS, and then a Silver from WAS to Florida (ORL?).



That is possible today ... however "Other" covers that vote

I think the idea is to get something that goes through Atlanta


----------



## Dakota 400

bms said:


> A pretty good Ohio Rail Transportation Map is found here.
> 
> According to this 2009 plan, the 3-C route was supposed to follow Norfolk Southern from Cleveland to Berea, CSX from Berea to Columbus, and Norfolk Southern from Columbus to Dayton. As of 2009, 58 miles of the line from Columbus to Dayton was single-tracked including speed restrictions of 15, 20, or 25 mph through Springfield.



I ordered a copy of the map. I wonder if I will receive it. 

Thank you for the link and the information!


----------



## jiml

bms said:


> A pretty good Ohio Rail Transportation Map is found here.


That's a really good map. Pity ones of similar detail and quality aren't available for all North American jurisdictions.


----------



## Seaboard92

Dakota 400 said:


> I ordered a copy of the map. I wonder if I will receive it.
> 
> Thank you for the link and the information!



Good luck getting it. I ordered mine years ago and it still hasn't arrived.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Qapla said:


> That is possible today ... however "Other" covers that vote
> 
> I think the idea is to get something that goes through Atlanta



Not necessarily. You could hit Nashville and Birmingham on the old Floridian route.


----------



## Qapla

Yes, you could - but that would not connect Jacksonville to Atlanta. 

It would be nice to have one route from Chicago-Atlanta-Jacksonville while restoring the SL from NOL to JAX. Though it would not be direct, it would give two options to get from JAX to BHM.

Having something from Atlanta to Chattanooga would allow for two options also. One could run to CUS via Louisville and Indianapolis and another could run to St Luis via Nashville - that leg could possibly join the CONO or the TE

There may not be tracks there now - but, there should be


----------



## Dakota 400

Seaboard92 said:


> Good luck getting it. I ordered mine years ago and it still hasn't arrived.



Their web site indicated that there might be a delay due to the "present conditions". I wonder when that statement was posted. I thought it might be this year. Maybe not. 

Oh well, if it comes, great. If not, so be it. The Sun will still rise tomorrow morning. I expect.


----------



## hlcteacher

thank you, very interesting


----------



## Dakota 400

Seaboard92 said:


> Good luck getting it. I ordered mine years ago and it still hasn't arrived.



The map arrived in my Saturday, October 17th, mail. I was surprised!


----------



## STT757

I like the idea of connecting to one of the East Coast Trains, what about the Palmetto and bring it back to the Silver Palm. Combine it in either Savannah or Jacksonville and run it down the A line to Orlando and Tampa. 

Just an observation but I believe Mid-Westerners prefer the West Coast of Florida (Tampa, Sarasota, Fort Myers) vs. Northeasterners who gravitate to Pam Beach, Boca Raton, Fort Lauderdale and Miami.


----------



## neroden

I hadn't thought about it (where I am, Chicago to Florida is not personally relevant), but based strictly on population, it's obvious that "via Atlanta" is the way to go. This might mean that it should be thought of as two potential services: Atlanta to Florida and Atlanta to Chicago. Atlanta to Chicago is much harder technically speaking, but Atlanta to Florida seems to have much less political will. Hmmmph.


----------



## west point

you are correct. Politicians around Atlanta in positions of governor, state and local officials, down to dog catcher are not interested either. It is all about Delta airlines. I would expect that the number of passengers passing thru ATL on a CHI - Florida route would only be about 15 - 20 %. Passengers north of the OHIO river traveling to / from south of Jacksonville will probably only be 5 - 10 %.

The train will probably be patronized mainly of passengers traveling to intermediate stations? That metric will cause any route studies to discount the intermediate stations loads that will be the main number of passengers. to travel this route. The result ? Faulty ridership projections.

Now what stations does this train serve? South of Atlanta it will be straight forward with Macon , Tifton Valdosta, Jacksonville. Unfortunately Columbus Ga has lost direct connections to ATL and also to Valdosta over Class 1 short line track. Maybe a thruway ? But south of Jacksonville we have the problem that more mid-west persons prefer the west coast of Florida. Is that enough for routing this train on the east coast or west coast to Tampa and then to SE Florida ? Now if the train had 8 or 10 revenue cars it might split at JAX to 4 to 5 each way ? A lot would depend on it being enough on time at JAX to arrive early split then combine with the Star to TPA / MIA ?

North of Atlanta Chattanooga , Nashville seem the best. North of Nashville probably Louisville and Indianapolis to CHI.

The bypassed Major cities.
1. Birmingham could be served south bound by the Crescent from BHM and a thruway bus to Nashville. 
2. Knoxville thruway busses. If there would be enough passengers for Nashville and beyond ? ?
3. Memphis Thruway busses to Nashville and BHM
4. Cincinnati / Dayton / Toledo / Detroit / Columbus, OH / Akron / Cleveland may have to wait for additional trains to Louisville ?

The final nail in the coffin will be that at least 5 probably 6 train sets will be needed. Only if Amtrak gets an infusion of cash to order the 50 - 60 cars and 12 - 15 additional locos needed above all the other present routes that need more equipment.
I count at least 12 new stations that will need ADA platforms that will be needed from day 1.


----------



## John Santos

west point said:


> [...]
> 
> The final nail in the coffin will be that at least 5 probably 6 train sets will be needed. Only if Amtrak gets an infusion of cash to order the 50 - 60 cars and 12 - 15 additional locos needed above all the other present routes that need more equipment.
> I count at least 12 new stations that will need ADA platforms that will be needed from day 1.


That's the final nail in any proposal for new or expanded service. Amtrak needs more train cars. A lot more train cars. Just replacing the older cars doesn't really help because the older cars are worn out, need refurbishment, don't meet current safety or ADA standards, cost a lot more to maintain, and if they put old cars on new routes, they won't be nearly as attractive to new riders. Also, quite a few of them have been wrecked or are otherwise beyond repair.

Same with engines,

There's a circular argument: 

 We can't buy new cars except to replace those on existing services because we can't financially justify them.
 We can't justify them because the ridership is zero.
The ridership is zero because these trains currently don't exist.
We can't add new trains because we don't have the equipment.
This is probably the worst possible time for Amtrak to be adding new service, but they should definitely be planning it for post-Covid and possibly experimenting with routes using surplus equipment normally used for canceled or reduced trains. There's enough equipment to run almost all the LDs 7 days/week, but most of them are only running 3 days/week. What is that equipment doing the other 4 days?


----------



## 20th Century Rider

Atlanta and Indianapolis option seems to be best... Atlanta is a large city and should have more hub options to more destinations... also there is a lot of potential ridership between IND and CHI given better frequencies and choices of times. Florida is a draw from all destinations and I would personally like to see more options.

BTW let us not stop hoping for the Sunset Limited to be extended back into Orlando... the tracks have long been repaired; in fact... the Amtrak System needs to be growing in this time of environmental impact of road transportation combined with the specter of fuel shortages.

Still there are dreamers out there wanting to see passenger rail transportation expansion. And yes, I personally am one of those dreamers!


----------



## crescent-zephyr

neroden said:


> Atlanta to Chicago is much harder technically speaking



Atlanta to Cincinnati on the NS and then follow the Cardinal route to Chicago.


----------



## west point

crescent-zephyr said:


> Atlanta to Cincinnati on the NS and then follow the Cardinal route to Chicago.



As much as I would like to see that route it does not serve any cities other than Chattanooga that has any significant population on the RAT Hole. Austell and Dalton Ga are not any population greats. Also Cincinnati - Chicago needs major upgrading to just 79 MPH.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

west point said:


> As much as I would like to see that route it does not serve any cities other than Chattanooga that has any significant population on the RAT Hole. Austell and Dalton Ga are not any population greats. Also Cincinnati - Chicago needs major upgrading to just 79 MPH.



You’d hit the Knoxville area and Lexington KY.


----------



## Palmland

This is the most direct route with major cities and it is all heavy duty mainline with PTC. But of course that's the problem. CSX would never agree. This is the Dixieland from the 1940 OGR that was discussed in a current thread on Timetable World. Such is progress.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

Palmland said:


> This is the most direct route with major cities and it is all heavy duty mainline with PTC. But of course that's the problem. CSX would never agree. This is the Dixieland from the 1940 OGR that was discussed in a current thread on Timetable World. Such is progress.
> 
> 
> View attachment 20214



Only major cities are Nashville and Atlanta.


----------



## Palmland

I'd say the two fastest growing towns in the south are significant. The problem with including Cincinnati or Louisville is that it takes longer as there really isn't a good route, as we all know from the painfully slow Cardinal.

I guess you could make a case for splitting from the Cardinal at Indianapolis and taking the LIRC to Louisville. CSX has spent a lot of money upgrading that line. as one of their north-south gateways. But it's still very slow north of Indianapolis. To be viable, you've got to have a well maintained good route that doesn't take forever.


----------



## west point

if you routed NS ATL - CHA Knoxville is way out of the way. As well Knoxville to Oakdale Harriman on the Rat Hole is very slow with a back up at Knoxville needed if a station is located any where near the old Knoxville station. 
Knoxville - Oakdale - Lexington = 2"20 + 6"00-= 8"20/ 
The Carolina Special - October, 1964 - Streamliner Schedules
Knoxville Chattanooga 2":50
The Birmingham Special - December, 1941 - Streamliner Schedules 
the Royal Palm 6"15 CHA - Lexington no stops on Rat Hole ( time change )
The New Royal Palm - March, 1951 - Streamliner Schedules 
So it would be at least 2"00 more by Knoxville not counting the necessary back up move at Knoxville/ It might be more advantageous to operate a thru way on I-40 ~ 42 - 45 miles.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

There’s a few options on the NS depending on which towns you want to hit. It doesn’t really matter if you hit Chattanooga or Chattanooga area, same with Knoxville. My opinion only of course. 

Of course we really shouldn’t have to choose... there should be a Chicago to Florida train that hits cincinatti south on the NS, AND Nashville!


----------



## west point

Not likely with the need for 6 train sets to cover a daily service.


----------



## Seaboard92

I really wish right about now we had a direct train from the south to the midwest now that I am commuting to and from Indianapolis once a month because it would be far cheaper for two sleepers than the current four I am paying for now. But we aren't that lucky these days. 

If I was going to route one I would seriously consider doing the CHI-IND-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami. If you timed it right you could hit everything north of Atlanta in day time schedule similar to how the Palmetto runs SAV-NYP. Then overnight across one of the dullest states in the country in my opinion, and be in Jacksonville just about day break without really upgrading any of the infrastructure. If you really wanted to go for the gusto split the train in Louisville or better yet Nashville and send a section up to Detroit via Cincinnati and Toledo. That would make a really nice well utilized route. 

I also don't think it would take 6 sets. I will have to play with it some but I think I can get it down to 5.


----------



## Palmland

Seaboard92 said:


> I really wish right about now we had a direct train from the south to the midwest now that I am commuting to and from Indianapolis once a month because it would be far cheaper for two sleepers than the current four I am paying for now. But we aren't that lucky these days.



Well, Seaboard, all we have to do is open up Saluda and you could be in Inidianapolis in 24 hours. This from the Timetable World '60 Guide. It even had a 10-6 Chicago to Columbia.


----------



## Seaboard92

Palmland said:


> Well, Seaboard, all we have to do is open up Saluda and you could be in Inidianapolis in 24 hours. This from the Timetable World '60 Guide. It even had a 10-6 Chicago to Columbia.
> 
> View attachment 20221


I really wish we had the Carolina Special still. It would have been such a useful train for people like us who live in this area.


----------



## west point

Carolina special - Morristown Tn no longer available as passenger track removed and ROW no longer available . 2 -3 miles west of downtown OK for new station.


----------



## Amtrakethyst

railgeekteen said:


> In my opinion via Atlanta is the best option.



Hi, I'm new here, just joined last night!

I totally agree! In fact I talked about this on Reddit three days ago: 

Not only do I think Indianapolis and Atlanta should be included on the stop list, but also Nashville and Louisville, and I did find one track between Louisville and Nashville though it wasn't easy to find. But as I said on Reddit, this track between Louisville and Nashville goes through these towns:


Hendersonville, TN
Gallatin, TN
Portland, TN
Mitchellville, TN
Franklyn, KY
Woodburn, KY
Bowling Green, KY
Rocky Hill, KY
Park City, KY
Horse Cave, KY
Bonnieville, KY
Sonora, KY
Colseburg, KY
Shepherdsville, KY
I followed the track southward on Google Maps and then followed it back up northward listing the towns from south to north although I would have preferred to do north to south but I did it the way I did so I wouldn't get lost! Very easy to get lost on an e-map! Some of you probably already did what I did, finding a track between Louisville and Nashville.

I also like this idea better than the Floridian though I was born 6 years too late to see it! If the Floridian did come back that would be okay too but I prefer via Atlanta. I know I don't live on that side of the country, I'm all the way out in Arizona, closest to the Sunset Limited territory, but still!

"I don't know about where the rails are, but it seems that Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta would maximize the number of larger intermediate markets that the train would serve. Anything further east would have to go through a whole lot more of Appalachia, slowing down the train, and anything running further west is taking the train out of its way, increasing travel time. Plus, both alternatives bypass all those big intermediate markets."

I could not agree more with you @MARC Rider 

I haven't read every message in this post but I did want to chime in!


----------



## Willbridge

Amtrakethyst said:


> Hi, I'm new here, just joined last night!
> 
> I totally agree! In fact I talked about this on Reddit three days ago:
> 
> Not only do I think Indianapolis and Atlanta should be included on the stop list, but also Nashville and Louisville, and I did find one track between Louisville and Nashville though it wasn't easy to find. But as I said on Reddit, this track between Louisville and Nashville goes through these towns:
> 
> 
> Hendersonville, TN
> Gallatin, TN
> Portland, TN
> Mitchellville, TN
> Franklyn, KY
> Woodburn, KY
> Bowling Green, KY
> Rocky Hill, KY
> Park City, KY
> Horse Cave, KY
> Bonnieville, KY
> Sonora, KY
> Colseburg, KY
> Shepherdsville, KY
> I followed the track southward on Google Maps and then followed it back up northward listing the towns from south to north although I would have preferred to do north to south but I did it the way I did so I wouldn't get lost! Very easy to get lost on an e-map! Some of you probably already did what I did, finding a track between Louisville and Nashville.
> 
> I also like this idea better than the Floridian though I was born 6 years too late to see it! If the Floridian did come back that would be okay too but I prefer via Atlanta. I know I don't live on that side of the country, I'm all the way out in Arizona, closest to the Sunset Limited territory, but still!
> 
> "I don't know about where the rails are, but it seems that Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta would maximize the number of larger intermediate markets that the train would serve. Anything further east would have to go through a whole lot more of Appalachia, slowing down the train, and anything running further west is taking the train out of its way, increasing travel time. Plus, both alternatives bypass all those big intermediate markets."
> 
> I could not agree more with you @MARC Rider
> 
> I haven't read every message in this post but I did want to chime in!




Chicago - Indianapolis - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta has survived as a Greyhound route. Here are photos from Indianapolis, Nashville and Chattanooga. A lot of station work would be needed. In Chattanooga the Southern station still stands. The Union Station is gone.

Indianapolis Union Station...




Indianapolis Union Station...




Nashville Greyhound Station...




Chattanooga, the Southern station...




Chattanooga, the Union Depot...


----------



## Amtrakethyst

Thanks for the photos @Willbridge 

The first photo didn't look like a train station but I'll believe you! I've been to the Indianapolis station a few times but only have one memory of it and that's back in 2005 while riding the Cardinal, which I've also ridden in 1997 and 1998 back when it had Superliner. Never actually boarded at Indianapolis, I just rode through there!

If I was hungry and had a hankering for some burgers of a Philly I'd have really been upset to see that sign because I like burgers and Philly!


----------



## Tlcooper93

Amtrak will definitely not be opening any new long distance routes in the foreseeable future. It simply won’t happen.

At this point, resurrecting a former route is the same as opening a new one.

We are lucky they keep the current ones alive, and that they lasted through the pandemic.


----------



## Willbridge

Amtrakethyst said:


> Thanks for the photos @Willbridge
> 
> The first photo didn't look like a train station but I'll believe you! I've been to the Indianapolis station a few times but only have one memory of it and that's back in 2005 while riding the Cardinal, which I've also ridden in 1997 and 1998 back when it had Superliner. Never actually boarded at Indianapolis, I just rode through there!
> 
> If I was hungry and had a hankering for some burgers of a Philly I'd have really been upset to see that sign because I like burgers and Philly!


The Amtrak and intercity bus waiting room and ticketing are in the former baggage and/or express room as best as I could tell. In 1969 when I caught the Big Four train to Marion, Ohio there the passengers were upstairs. This time there was a private party going on upstairs when I went out off the station and snapped the photo. I walked under the tracks to a burger place.


----------



## neroden

Tlcooper93 said:


> Amtrak will definitely not be opening any new long distance routes in the foreseeable future. It simply won’t happen.


I wouldn't be entirely sure about that in regards to every single potential long distance route -- the North Coast Hiawatha continues to have support from every state along the route except Idaho, which is a lot of backers -- but on a route going through a bunch of states with totally unsupportive state governments like this -- indeed, no. A new route is hard enough to start with state government support -- with state leadership opposing it, it's very unlikely.


----------



## Tlcooper93

neroden said:


> I wouldn't be entirely sure about that in regards to every single potential long distance route -- the North Coast Hiawatha continues to have support from every state along the route except Idaho, which is a lot of backers -- but on a route going through a bunch of states with totally unsupportive state governments like this -- indeed, no. A new route is hard enough to start with state government support -- with state leadership opposing it, it's very unlikely.



It seems like you just listed (as far as I know), the only actually possible LD route resurrection, but then explained why it won’t happen. 

Support isn’t the only reason that route won’t happen. Track slots, upgrades, and insufficient rolling stock also pose formidable hurtles to overcome. 

If Idaho suddenly backs the route, and Amtrak orders the right number of superliner replacements for additional LD routes, then maybe I’ll change my stance.

I’d be curious to of any other legitimately possible LD route additions.


----------



## George Harris

Several random thoughts:
Louisville to Nashville is very much alive as a railroad main line, now CSX. This is the original Louisville and Nashville main line. 3 1/2 to 4 hours should be practical. Extending from Nashville to Birmingham is continuation of the same, about 205 miles and was scheduled for 4 hours in the early 60's. This was originally the Nashville and Decatur between those cities which ran via Columbia TN, but a more direct and level route bypassing Columbia TN was built in the early 1900's. It did not make it into Decatur AL on its own rails. The bridge across the Tennessee river is owned by NS. This was Southern Railroad, originally the Memphis and Charleston, one of the first lines to get as far west as the Mississippi River. This line also remains a fairly heavily used main line. South of Decatur to Montgomery AL, through Birmingham is also still a heavily used main line. Now CSX after long years as part of the Louisville and Nashville. A note: This line was built as the S&NA shortly after the War Between the States. That was South and North Alabama. In those years you did not put "north" as the first part of the name of anything in the South if avoidable. All this was the main stem of the Floridian, formerly South Wind route. North of Louisville, as others have noted there are multiple options, none of them really very good. South of Montgomery I believe most of the old South Wind route is in place, but much was unsignalled and not heavily traveled, so would probably need a lot of work if it still remains fully in place. Following this more or less Floridian route no one seems to consider the possibility of taking a right turn at Bainbridge GA onto the line that goes to Tallahassee FL. This is a branch, but if all still in place could probably be upgraded at lower cost than the rest of the Floridian line to Waycross GA, This would also be a shorter route to Jacksonville than the original Floridian route. 

As to going Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta, anything less than 8 hours for this route is highly unlikely to be practical. The railroad route is something like 30 miles longer than the highway distance, and much of it very curvy for much of its length.

Likewise, to go Knoxville-Chattanooga-Atlanta seems a somewhat irrational detour rather than the direct Knoxville to Atlanta CSX main. In the past that was scheduled for slightly over 4 hours. Knoxville to Chattanooga was a 3 hour passenger train run for the about 110 miles distance due to multiple curves. Chattanooga to Atlanta was another 3 hours minimum, and would probably be more like 4 now. 

Interestingly, of the original every third day Chicago to Florida streamliners the only route with most, maybe even all its track still in place and essentially main line was the Dixie Flagler which was the first to go. Much if the track on its route south of Nashville was fairly curvy and not high speed in general, so it was probably the least reliable and worst ride quality of the three. The fastest and lastest was the City of Miami but several chunks of its route are no more. 

No one seems to have mentioned going on the City of New Orleans route as far as Memphis and then taking the BNSF (formerly Frisco) route to Birmingham. This could be considerably faster and shorter than going all the way to New Orleans. Between Chi and B'ham this would probably be some 3 hours slower than the now abandoned ICRR direct line into B'ham via Jackson TN.


----------



## zephyr17

Amtrakethyst said:


> Thanks for the photos @Willbridge
> 
> The first photo didn't look like a train station but I'll believe you!


It isn't. It is the Illinois St. underpass beneath the platform tracks.

Indianapolis Union Station is not in any of the pictures and it has not been used as a rail station for decades. The Indianapolis Amtrak/Greyhound Station is on the other side of the street and on the opposite side of the tracks from Indianapolis Union Station. It is in part of what used to be the Railway Express Agency offices and it is indeed a pit. It does use one of Union Station's old platforms, though, and one of REA's old freight elevators.

For the record, my grandfather was the manager of Railway Express Agency at Indianapolis and my mother worked there.


----------



## neroden

Tlcooper93 said:


> I’d be curious to of any other legitimately possible LD route additions.



I think increased frequencies on existing LD routes -- ones which require no new stations and where all the tracks already host passenger trains -- are a real possibility. Multiple trains per day on the Lake Shore Limited route. Or the combined Pennsylvanian-Capitol Limited route ("Broadway Limited"). Daily service on the Cardinal and the Sunset Limited. A second frequency from Chicago to Denver. These all seem far more likely than any route which does not currently host passenger service.


----------



## Tlcooper93

neroden said:


> I think increased frequencies on existing LD routes -- ones which require no new stations and where all the tracks already host passenger trains -- are a real possibility. Multiple trains per day on the Lake Shore Limited route. Or the combined Pennsylvanian-Capitol Limited route ("Broadway Limited"). Daily service on the Cardinal and the Sunset Limited. A second frequency from Chicago to Denver. These all seem far more likely than any route which does not currently host passenger service.



Yes, all of those are plausible.
I meant new routes though (or resurrecting long dead routes), not increasing frequencies.


----------



## neroden

Tlcooper93 said:


> Yes, all of those are plausible.
> I meant new routes though (or resurrecting long dead routes), not increasing frequencies.


I suppose the Broadway Limited would technically be a new route (no change at Pittsburgh). Or, maybe, a New York to Detroit "long-distance" / overnight service, which would be on about 60 miles of track from Detroit to Toledo which currently does not host passenger trains.

I simply don't see the political support for any new long-distance route on substantial amounts of tracks which are currently unserved by passenger trains, other than the North Coast Hiawatha. Most of the other routes people propose run through states whose governments are still notoriously hostile to passenger train improvements. Until the state politics change, I don't see it happening; the feds aren't going to give money to states which are going to be hostile to accepting it.

The one which depresses me the most is actually Iowa: there should be a Denver-Chicago train running via Des Moines and Iowa City, rather than via the city-free route the California Zephyr currently takes, but political shifts in Iowa mean that the Iowa government is now hostile to passenger trains and rejected federal money to rehab the line for passengers from Moline to Iowa City, let alone further.

The states which do have governments supportive of passenger trains don't have a lot of reasonable opportunities for new long-distance service, and most of those are increased frequencies on existing routes, such as the ones I noted before.

If, say, pro-passenger-train Democrats take control of the Texas State Government, or the Georgia State Government, then suddenly a whole lot of new long-distance trains would become plausible. But that still seems some years away.


----------



## jruff001

Good luck getting the host railroads to agree to new routes, or increased frequencies on current routes, even if there is state government support.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

I think a revived Pioneer is a possibility, if not a likelihood. And since all but the Louisville to Nashville leg is on the 2035 ConnectsUS map, Chicago to FL will probably happen too, but the full trip won't be its focus. And Something allowing E-W that doesn't involve Chicago, say Savana - Atlanta - Nashville - Memphis - Denver. And I think the Cincinnati - Columbus - Cleveland will happen. Freight RR will get onboard when you make it worth their while, either positively or negatively or a little of both. Since transit and commuter rail have been where the growth has been in recent decade, Amtrak needs to build their regional/corridor/whatever service as an extension and connector of that. It's not 1971, much less 1951. How big is the Chicago to Florida market? It has to be big enough for 10% or less of it to support a train. I'm sure someone has numbers on this, and intermediate stops (NARP or some State or Regional Rail Plan?). I think there are expansions on what's done now that can work, but it may be the last chance to do something that's not a variation on what Amtrak's always done. Hard choices to be sure, since being able to take next steps will depend on the success of the first steps.


----------



## George Harris

Sorry, much as I would like to see it, Atlanta-Nashville-Memphis would probably take 12 to 14 hours, highly unlikely anything less than 12, and you can drive it in about 7 hours.


----------



## Palmland

George Harris said:


> Sorry, much as I would like to see it, Atlanta-Nashville-Memphis would probably take 12 to 14 hours, highly unlikely anything less than 12, and you can drive it in about 7 hours.


Yes, it would be hard to resurrect the Georgian segment of that route. But the City of Memphis service might be viable.

Perhaps a better solution (but still not fast) for FL-Chicago might be using a portion of the Tennessean route: FL-Savannah-Atlanta-Chattanooga-Memphis and connect to CONO. Part of that would fit into Atlanta’s discussions for commuter service (Macon-Cartersville).


----------



## Tlcooper93

danasgoodstuff said:


> I think a revived Pioneer is a possibility, if not a likelihood.



While I don’t want to knock anyone’s enthusiasm, calling it a likelihood is misplaced faith.

Even if the politics change, and the host railroads give the ok (that won’t happen in the near future), Amtrak in unprepared to revive an old route. 

They need to get more sleepers in their superliner replacement, as they don’t really have the equipment to run a brand new LD train. Plus, there are other things that Amtrak may consider before starting a new route, like a daily Sunset Limited.



danasgoodstuff said:


> And since all but the Louisville to Nashville leg is on the 2035 ConnectsUS map, Chicago to FL will probably happen too, but the full trip won't be its focus.



New LD trains won’t happen. Amtrak isn’t interested in running them. Again, we are lucky Amtrak seems to be ok with keeping the ones we have.


----------



## jis

The original Pioneer was introduced as an overnight Regional service between Salt Lake City and Seattle with only Coaches and Cafe.

With our current desire for every service to be gold plated we have also made it much harder to introduce any service. A bit more insistence on thicker plating and we will never introduce any new service, since there is no way left to test the waters with a relatively inexpensive trial introduction, something that was allowed by the original 403(b) program too, when states wanted to fund it. Afterall, that is how even the Lake Shore Limited came into existence.


----------



## danasgoodstuff

Tlcooper93 said:


> While I don’t want to knock anyone’s enthusiasm, calling it a likelihood is misplaced faith.
> 
> Even if the politics change, and the host railroads give the ok (that won’t happen in the near future), Amtrak in unprepared to revive an old route.
> 
> They need to get more sleepers in their superliner replacement, as they don’t really have the equipment to run a brand new LD train. Plus, there are other things that Amtrak may consider before starting a new route, like a daily Sunset Limited.
> 
> 
> 
> New LD trains won’t happen. Amtrak isn’t interested in running them. Again, we are lucky Amtrak seems to be ok with keeping the ones we have.


Sorry if Ii wasn't clear, I meant possible but less than likely. The now over 10 years old study on reviving it showed standing stations and increased population all along the Oregon section of the route, and Boise is much bigger than it used to be too.


----------



## George Harris

Palmland said:


> Yes, it would be hard to resurrect the Georgian segment of that route. But the City of Memphis service might be viable.
> 
> Perhaps a better solution (but still not fast) for FL-Chicago might be using a portion of the Tennessean route: FL-Savannah-Atlanta-Chattanooga-Memphis and connect to CONO. Part of that would fit into Atlanta’s discussions for commuter service (Macon-Cartersville).


The portion of the City of Memphis route through Jackson TN is not possible because the track is gone, and that part west of Jackson TN gone for over 50 years. To go between Nashville and Memphis by rail now requires going through McKenzie TN where the ex NC&StL and ex L&N lines connect. This line is unsignalled west of Bruceton TN. Incidentally the direct Memphis-Louisville line is no more, either. 

No matter how you slice it, Memphis to Atlanta is going to be a 10+ hour trip. Two practical routes, NS (ex Southern) via Chattanooga, or BNSF-NS (ex Frisco and Southern) via Birmingham.


----------



## west point

IMO the problem with restored routes or a new route is ADA requirements for any service. It has to be ADA compliant from day one as far as I know from other posts ?. Anyone know how Hope AR was handled ? ADA makes station stops expensive.

EDIT do not know if ADA requires a high platform but if it does then a station track or at least a gantlet track would be needed. That then requires the establishment of 2 expensive CPs switches and signals and PTC modifications.


----------



## Palmland

George Harris said:


> This line is unsignalled west of Bruceton TN. Incidentally the direct Memphis-Louisville line is no more, either.


Yes, it was TT/TO when I rode over it on the Memphis Pan. Are you sure that portion hasn’t been upgraded for PTC. Large chemical plant at New Johnsonville (ex DuPont) plus traffic to/from Old Hickory would require PTC if routed via Memohis. The ex L&N Memohis branch stops at Cumberland City. Rode there a few times on current operator RJ Corman.


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> Yes, it was TT/TO when I rode over it on the Memphis Pan. Are you sure that portion hasn’t been upgraded for PTC. Large chemical plant at New Johnsonville (ex DuPont) plus traffic to/from Old Hickory would require PTC if routed via Memohis. The ex L&N Memohis branch stops at Cumberland City. Rode there a few times on current operator RJ Corman.


Well, if they operate the trains nice and slow then they could get away operating without PTC perhaps.


----------



## George Harris

Referring to my statement, " Incidentally the direct Memphis-Louisville line is no more, either."


Palmland said:


> Yes, it was TT/TO when I rode over it on the Memphis Pan. Are you sure that portion hasn’t been upgraded for PTC. Large chemical plant at New Johnsonville (ex DuPont) plus traffic to/from Old Hickory would require PTC if routed via Memphis. The ex L&N Memphis branch stops at Cumberland City. Rode there a few times on current operator RJ Corman.


New Johnsonville DuPont plant is on the ex NC&StL line west out of Nashville. This line is (probably still?) CTC from Nashville to Bruceton TN. For reference to those in the other parts of the world, the Tennessee River bridge is just west of New Johnsonville and immediately north of the US 70 bridge. Rail traffic on the line is low enough that the standard position of the lift span is up unless a train is approaching. New Johnsonville is 80 miles west of Nashville and Bruceton is 95 miles west of Nashville. According the the CSX "Nashville Service Lane Maps what is left is the following: The former NC&StL Memphis line which went south out of Bruceton to go through Jackson TN is gone except for a few miles in the Jackson vicinity accessed by trackage rights out of Milan TN on the NS (ex ICRR). When the NC&StL was still independent this portion was also CTC. Now Memphis freight goes on the former NC Union City branch to McKenzie where it is connected to the former L&N direct line to Louisville. A look at Google maps shows the Louisville line gone north of the wye, even to the point that the ex NC diamond is gone but the NC line is in place as far as Dresden. As to the original L&N Louisville-Memphis line out of Bowling Green, the Tennessee River bridge was removed sometime around the early 70's and the line leading up to it from both ends either abandoned or sold off for the entire distance between Memphis Jct at Bowling Green and McKenzie TN. The remaining portion between McKenzie and Memphis is not signaled and never has been. There are only two long sidings in the entire 130 mile distance. Bruceton-McKenzie-Memphis.


----------



## neroden

jruff001 said:


> Good luck getting the host railroads to agree to new routes, or increased frequencies on current routes, even if there is state government support.


They'll do what they're told. When the federal government and the state government jointly demand something, and pay the actual cost for it, the host railroads don't have a leg to stand on when opposing it, and although they occasionally bluster, they always fold. 

The unfortunate truth is that it has been rare to have solid state and federal support for any routes. Even New York has suffered from tepid state government support. Tennessee has had reliable state government *_opposition_*.

North Coast Hiawatha is a possibility if North Dakota actively backed it and both ND and MT were willing to put some money in; Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Washington would probably throw their backing behind it. But so far that is not the case: MT won't put up money and ND won't even formally push for it. And the political trends in both states have been going the wrong way.


----------



## George Harris

neroden said:


> Tennessee has had reliable state government *_opposition_*.


Tennessee did kick in quite a bit to set up the commuter line Lebanon to Nashville on the ex Tennessee Central line east out of Nashville. In many ways, this was the low hanging fruit. The state owned the line and it was operated for freight as far east as Cookeville? Crossville?. beyond which it was abandoned in part and taken over by Southern in part. They did sufficient upgrades to the track to achieve 60 mph (faster than it had ever been) and add signals (which it had never had before) with a good tie job, a partial rail replacement to get rid of everything under 100 lb/yd, quite a bit of bridge work, and one line relocation. Everything they did was done with an eye to get reliable service at minimal cost. In general it has proven successful. Not wildly so, so that it would encourage development of service on other lines, but sufficient to keep it going. 

There are other potential commuter lines out of Nashville, but all would be much more expensive to implement, even though a few have a potential for much higher ridership. (Nashville is the only Tennessee city with a lot of real central city destination commuters due to the state government giving it a large supply of office workers.)

The "low hanging fruit" so far as Amtrak and Tennessee is concerned would be to extend the Illinois train from Chicago to Carbondale down to Memphis. It should have decent ridership and not require any new facilities.


----------



## Philly Amtrak Fan

jis said:


> The original Pioneer was introduced as an overnight Regional service between Salt Lake City and Seattle with only Coaches and Cafe.
> 
> With our current desire for every service to be gold plated we have also made it much harder to introduce any service. A bit more insistence on thicker plating and we will never introduce any new service, since there is no way left to test the waters with a relatively inexpensive trial introduction, something that was allowed by the original 403(b) program too, when states wanted to fund it. Afterall, that is how even the Lake Shore Limited came into existence.



To my knowledge the Three Rivers (1996-2005) never had a diner car. AU endlessly complains about food and dining. I'm sure there are people who avoided it like the plague and would rather take that other train that was 8 hours longer just because it had a diner. If AU could be happy with an overnight train without a diner, maybe we'd still have the Three Rivers and the Pioneer today. I'd take a Three Rivers without sleepers over having to change trains in DC or Pittsburgh. If you keep demanding all or nothing, most of the time you wind up with nothing.


----------



## Seaboard92

The thing to remember though is that Amtrak isn't beholden to the former Class One routings. Amtrak can mix and match to make a good train that hits a large population of any former class one. So there is no reason we can't merge part of the Southwind with parts of the Dixie Flagler, with bits of the Nancy Hanks, or an unnamed ACL local out of Atlanta. No reason at all we can't merge the strongest parts of these routes into one.


----------



## basketmaker

First Amtrak trip I ever took was the Floridian returning home from Nashville to Miami in '78. From what I remember it was still pretty much a hodgepodge of equipment and conditions. Exterior did sport the pointless arrow. Spent most of the time camped out in a dome watching the deep south roll by. Moved to Nashville the following year and a month later it was discontinued. Subsequent Amtrak travels required a 3 hour drive to Fulton, KY for the City. Luckily only 30 minutes to downtown Denver Union Station now. Though I prefer the 1 hour quick jaunt to Fort Morgan since there is free parking next to the platform.


----------

