# Canadian to have "Buffer Cars"



## Bob Dylan (Oct 14, 2022)

According to trainorders, due to mechanical issues involving structual cracks in the 70 year old cars , the Canadian will be required by the TSBC to run "Buffer Cars" between the Power and the Bag Car and behind the Park Car!!!

This ought to go over big with the Swells that Pay Premium Fares to have Exclusive use of the car in the daytime, and for the folks in Sleeper Plus who can use the car in the evenings and @ night!


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## jis (Oct 14, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> According to trainorders, due to mechanical issues involving structual cracks in the 70 year old cars , the Canadian will be required by the TSBC to run "Buffer Cars" between the Power and the Bag Car and behind the Park Car!!!
> 
> This ought to go over big with the Swells that Pay Premium Fares to have Exclusive use of the car in the daytime, and for the folks in Sleeper Plus who can use the car in the evenings and @ night!


So the Heritage Fleet consists now start looking like Renn consists, buffer car and all 

I think the big loss is during the daytime in the Park Car. At night while crossing the end less Canadian Shield, or the vast Prairies or the Rockies, there is little to see unless it is a bright moonlit night.


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## joelkfla (Oct 14, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> According to trainorders, due to mechanical issues involving structual cracks in the 70 year old cars , the Canadian will be required by the TSBC to run "Buffer Cars" between the Power and the Bag Car and behind the Park Car!!!
> 
> This ought to go over big with the Swells that Pay Premium Fares to have Exclusive use of the car in the daytime, and for the folks in Sleeper Plus who can use the car in the evenings and @ night!


Yeah, that's a real shame for the Park Car. The view out the back helped set the mellow mood in the evening, especially when the Artist on Board was sitting back there singing.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 14, 2022)

jis said:


> So the Heritage Fleet consists now start looking like Renn consists, buffer car and all
> 
> I think the big loss is during the daytime in the Park Car. At night while crossing the end less Canadian Shield, or the vast Prairies or the Rockies, there is little to see unless it is a bright moonlit night.


Maybe Amtrak could return the Favor to VIA and rent them some of the Cars that are sitting the yards all over the US for use as Buffer Cars!


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## jiml (Oct 14, 2022)

Apparently this process started already on "heritage" trains in the corridor, with baggage cars being used in this role. (That explains the baggage car at either end of the last VIA train I saw. I presumed a deadhead move.) As well cars will be added to all trains using conventional Budd equipment. In the interim the first and last cars of these consists are closed to occupancy. 

More details here: Breaking News - Buffer Cars on VIA HEP Trains


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## thully (Oct 14, 2022)

Does this impact all consists of the Canadian, or only some of them, and is there a timeframe for the needed work to be finished to remove these? Glad I got to experience the Park Car without any cars attached to the back - while the dome was great, so was looking out the railfan window on the lower level (and unlike the dome, the Skyline car doesn’t have that). I just took the Canadian, so I wasn’t planning another trip imminently, though I would be inclined to wait until these buffer cars are removed.


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## jis (Oct 14, 2022)

thully said:


> Does this impact all consists of the Canadian, or only some of them, and is there a timeframe for the needed work to be finished to remove these? Glad I got to experience the Park Car without any cars attached to the back - while the dome was great, so was looking out the railfan window on the lower level (and unlike the dome, the Skyline car doesn’t have that). I just took the Canadian, so I wasn’t planning another trip imminently, though I would be inclined to wait until these buffer cars are removed.


I suspect this will be for all consists and it is not a short term thing. My suspicion is that the days of trains using the legacy equipment without buffer cars are over. The sort of structural cracks they are talking of are notoriously difficult to fix completely.


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## jiml (Oct 14, 2022)

I believe any train with Budd-style stainless steel coaches. In Canada that covers a lot of equipment, including the HEP-2 stuff from Amtrak. One wonders if there will be a larger impact on cars of this era once other countries' regulatory agencies hear of this, e.g. in the US on tourist railroads, commuter agencies and don't even some of the Carolina services still run with former KCS stock? Many of Australia's premier trains also run with this equipment.


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## jis (Oct 14, 2022)

jiml said:


> I believe any train with Budd-style stainless steel coaches. In Canada that covers a lot of equipment, including the HEP-2 stuff from Amtrak. One wonders if there will be a larger impact on cars of this era once other countries' regulatory agencies hear of this, e.g. in the US on tourist railroads, commuter agencies and don't even some of the Carolina services still run with former KCS stock? Many of Australia's premier trains also run with this equipment.


The Carolina agency's heritage stock is scheduled to be replaced by ICT in 5-7 years, but if necessary, in the interim they might be substituted or buffered by Horizon Fleet cars taken out of Mothballs or released from the Midwest I suppose.

I cannot recall if VIA has a re-equiping plan for the long distance fleet. Does it? Where does it stand at present if it does?


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## jiml (Oct 14, 2022)

jis said:


> I cannot recall if VIA has a re-equiping plan for the long distance fleet. Does it? Where does it stand at present if it does?


Not that I am aware of. Unfortunately most of the people I knew at VIA have retired or passed and other than the Siemens purchases there hasn't been a lot of news in this area. I could certainly see LRC coaches that are displaced by the new sets showing up in northern Quebec service (where no sleepers are involved), but longer distance remains a mystery.


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## GDRRiley (Oct 14, 2022)

jis said:


> I cannot recall if VIA has a re-equiping plan for the long distance fleet. Does it? Where does it stand at present if it does?


I don't belive they have any publicly although I've heard some people push for them to join amtraks new LD order with California


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## TheMalahat (Oct 14, 2022)

jiml said:


> Not that I am aware of. Unfortunately most of the people I knew at VIA have retired or passed and other than the Siemens purchases there hasn't been a lot of news in this area. I could certainly see LRC coaches that are displaced by the new sets showing up in northern Quebec service (where no sleepers are involved), but longer distance remains a mystery.



Via is in the Request for Information process for long distance car equipment replacement. Practically speaking, if everything went perfectly, that means we are about eight years from new equipment actually rolling. 






Non-corridor Fleets Renewal Market Day - 202112030 | MERX







www.merx.com










VIA long distance fleet replacement


It looks like VIA is finally starting the process of replacing its long distance (eg Ocean, Canadian, etc) routes. This is exciting news and the time frame seems to line up with Amtrak so maybe we could see them work together on a joint order? Mostly the requirements would be the same, with VIA...




www.amtraktrains.com


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## jiml (Oct 14, 2022)

TheMalahat said:


> Via is in the Request for Information process for long distance car equipment replacement. Practically speaking, if everything went perfectly, that means we are about eight years from new equipment actually rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've always loved your optimism! Hoping it happens.


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## desertflyer (Oct 14, 2022)

Having just dropped a decent chunk of change to book to the Canadian next month, this is a bit disappointing.


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## MontanaJim (Oct 14, 2022)

Breaking News - Buffer Cars on VIA HEP Trains


Buffering used to be an indication of slow internet. But now it's an indication of new requirement taking hold at VIA Rail Canada. If you th...




tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 14, 2022)

jiml said:


> One wonders if there will be a larger impact on cars of this era once other countries' regulatory agencies hear of this, e.g. in the US on tourist railroads, commuter agencies and don't even some of the Carolina services still run with former KCS stock? Many of Australia's premier trains also run with this equipment.


US tourist roads use cars that predate the streamliner era and never passed formal safety criteria so that would be a big change. In the case of Australia it seems like there is limited long haul passenger service and little or no freight traffic on prestige routes. Perhaps that would be enough to keep things as-is.


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## GDRRiley (Oct 14, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> US tourist roads use cars that predate the streamliner era and never passed formal safety criteria so that would be a big change. In the case of Australia it seems like there is limited long haul passenger service and little or no freight traffic on prestige routes. Perhaps that would be enough to keep things as-is.


equipment in the US has been required to be buff strength for over 100 years now. 1945 changed it from 400,000lbs to 800,000lbs

if the limit is due to cracking that should be a caught item during inspections


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## MARC Rider (Oct 14, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> US tourist roads use cars that predate the streamliner era


Uh, I just rode the Western Maryland Scenic Railway last summer. I rode in an ex- UP streamliner car, they had an ex-UP lounge car, they had the ex-Amtrak, ex-GN Ocean View dome car, and an ex-MARC, ex PRR Budd coach, that I think was converted from a sleeper. Of course, the train never went more than 19 mph, if that makes any difference.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 14, 2022)

Looks like I'm going to need to take a ride on the Canadian soon, even without the view from the Bullet Lounge, if I want to experience a ride on the Budd cars of my youth.

I guess if I want to experience the view from the end of the train, I'm going to have to settle with the railfan window riding business class on the Northeast Regional, that is until the new Siemens trainsets replace all the Amfleets.


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## west point (Oct 14, 2022)

For us structural novicies what is the function of the "buffer" cars? Buffer against what? How will they prevent problems?


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## MontanaJim (Oct 14, 2022)

west point said:


> For us structural novicies what is the function of the "buffer" cars? Buffer against what? How will they prevent problems?


buffer from a train hitting it from behind i guess.


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## MontanaJim (Oct 14, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Looks like I'm going to need to take a ride on the Canadian soon, even without the view from the Bullet Lounge, if I want to experience a ride on the Budd cars of my youth.
> 
> I guess if I want to experience the view from the end of the train, I'm going to have to settle with the railfan window riding business class on the Northeast Regional, that is until the new Siemens trainsets replace all the Amfleets.


no railfan window in the siemens trainsets?


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 15, 2022)

GDRRiley said:


> equipment in the US has been required to be buff strength for over 100 years now. 1945 changed it from 400,000lbs to 800,000lbs if the limit is due to cracking that should be a caught item during inspections


Who is crash testing ancient wooden passenger stock and converted freight stock? 



MARC Rider said:


> Of course, the train never went more than 19 mph, if that makes any difference.


I believe it does make a difference. You can see videos of really old trains and really bad track but they're all moving at a snails pace relative to Amtrak or VIA.


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## GDRRiley (Oct 15, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Who is crash testing ancient wooden passenger stock and converted freight stock?


were talking early streamliner and heavyweight cars by the 1920s 


west point said:


> For us structural novicies what is the function of the "buffer" cars? Buffer against what? How will they prevent problems?


buffer cars are cars designed to take the brunt of an impact or separate crew from hazmat


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## MccfamschoolMom (Oct 15, 2022)

I saw a YouTube video of someone riding the Ocean (Halifax-Montreal) earlier this week, and it looked like its consist included both newer sleeper cars (where the content creator's room was; he described them as "Eurostar hand-me-downs", but they looked pretty nice) and the older Chateau sleeper cars. How long would it take to put the newer sleeper cars on the Canadian, and how would that alter the trip experience for passengers?


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## Urban Sky (Oct 15, 2022)

jiml said:


> I could certainly see LRC coaches that are displaced by the new sets showing up in northern Quebec service (where no sleepers are involved), but longer distance remains a mystery.


Transport Canada has made more than clear that the LRC cars won’t have any kind of second life after its Corridor deployment - neither at VIA nor any tourist railway. They already have to get retired progressively as we speak and independently of the question whether the delivery of the new trainsets can keep up…



MccfamschoolMom said:


> I saw a YouTube video of someone riding the Ocean (Halifax-Montreal) earlier this week, and it looked like its consist included both newer sleeper cars (where the content creator's room was; he described them as "Eurostar hand-me-downs", but they looked pretty nice) and the older Chateau sleeper cars. How long would it take to put the newer sleeper cars on the Canadian, and how would that alter the trip experience for passengers?


There is only one maintenance facility on this planet with experience maintaining and repairing Renaissance cars and that is in Montreal. Given the poor reliability of the Renaissance cars, they are not suitable to be sent across the country for multiple days…


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## jiml (Oct 15, 2022)

Urban Sky said:


> Transport Canada has made more than clear that the LRC cars won’t have any kind of second life after it’s Corridor deployment - neither at VIA nor any tourist railway. They already have to get retured progressively as we speak and independently of the question whether the delivery of the new trainsets can keep up…


I was not aware of that. Thanks for the clarification. That's almost a larger problem than the one being discussed.


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## jiml (Oct 15, 2022)

Urban Sky said:


> Given the poor reliability of the Renaissance cars, they are not suitable to be sent across the country for multiple days…


They do look good in VIA's latest Fall ad however.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 15, 2022)

Seems like the best solution is to spend whatever $$$ necessary to make the park cars “buffer cars”


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## jis (Oct 15, 2022)

As an aside, I was always under the impression that the Renn sets required a buffer car in the front between the passenger carrying section and any other type of car. I was under the impression that a buffer car was required in the rear only if ther were other types of cars behind the Renn cars. Do I recall wrong? Someone with more precise knowledge might be able to help set me straight.


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## jiml (Oct 15, 2022)

jis said:


> As an aside, I was always under the impression that the Renn sets required a buffer car in the front between the passenger carrying section and any other type of car. I was under the impression that a buffer car was required in the rear only if ther were other types of cars behind the Renn cars. Do I recall wrong? Someone with more precise knowledge might be able to help set me straight.


I think the original purpose was to allow coupling a "rake" of Renaissance cars to locomotives and standard stock without modifying every car.


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## jis (Oct 15, 2022)

jiml said:


> I think the original purpose was to allow coupling a "rake" of Renaissance cars to locomotives and standard stock without modifying every car.


Basically the same principle now applies to the Budd fleet too, as far as I can tell.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 15, 2022)

MccfamschoolMom said:


> I saw a YouTube video of someone riding the Ocean (Halifax-Montreal) earlier this week, and it looked like its consist included both newer sleeper cars (where the content creator's room was; he described them as "Eurostar hand-me-downs", but they looked pretty nice) and the older Chateau sleeper cars. How long would it take to put the newer sleeper cars on the Canadian, and how would that alter the trip experience for passengers?


The Renaissance sleepers are European hand me downs originally intended for an overnight Chunnel service that never happened.

The cars are an endless source of maintenance trouble and are well suited to neither Canadian winter conditions, nor the rough and tumble of North American railroading. I have a friend who is a foreman in car delivery with the former Bombardier. He is a serious railfan and has spent a lot of time working with GO Transit at Mimico and has talked a lot to the VIA maintenance staff. They hate the Rens, and there are a significant number laid up as parts sources.

I don't think you are going to see any more of them.


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## GDRRiley (Oct 15, 2022)

zephyr17 said:


> The Renaissance sleepers are European hand me downs originally intended for an overnight Chunnel service that never happened.
> 
> The cars are an endless source of maintenance trouble and are well suited to neither Canadian winter conditions, nor the rough and tumble of North American railroading. I have a friend who is a foreman in car delivery with the former Bombardier. He is a serious railfan and has spent a lot of time working with GO Transit at Mimico and has talked a lot to the VIA maintenance staff. They hate the Rens, and there are a significant number laid up as parts sources.
> 
> I don't think you are going to see any more of them.


they never even put most into service they got 140 shells of which half just sat outside rotting away


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## jiml (Oct 15, 2022)

As @Urban Sky pointed out, they're now based in Montreal so we rarely see them in Ontario anymore. As far west as they get are the through Quebec City-Ottawa trains. They do continue on the Ocean of course, where the 3-unit diner-lounge setup actually provides for a great customer experience. I'll miss that and their smooth ride when they're gone. It will be interesting what gets retired first, based on the subject of this thread, the LRC problem and the Renaissance fleet.


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## GDRRiley (Oct 15, 2022)

LRC and some of the buds will go with the venture sets.
but everything else waits on them getting new LD cars which won't be fast


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## Urban Sky (Oct 15, 2022)

jiml said:


> It will be interesting what gets retired first, based on the subject of this thread, the LRC problem and the Renaissance fleet.


My understanding is that the Renaissance cars used on the Corridor can probably last until all 32 new trainsets have been delivered. VIA doesn‘t have that kind of luxury with the LRC fleet…


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## Fenu S (Oct 16, 2022)

Here is the most recent video of The Canadian on Youtube. It does include the buffer cars.


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## acelafan (Oct 17, 2022)

Fenu S said:


> Here is the most recent video of The Canadian on Youtube. It does include the buffer cars.



And that is one long passenger train.


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## TheMalahat (Oct 17, 2022)

And it's full! Very full. I'm on board.


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## crescent-zephyr (Oct 18, 2022)

TheMalahat said:


> And it's full! Very full. I'm on board.


How’s the trip going!?


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## MontanaJim (Oct 20, 2022)

Order Under Section 32.01 of the Railway Safety Act (MO 22-06)


Ministerial Order Under Section 32.01 of the Railway Safety Act (MO 22-06).




tc.canada.ca


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## west point (Oct 21, 2022)

That order will probably reduce the number of HEP cars with the destructive testing.


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## joelkfla (Oct 21, 2022)

west point said:


> That order will probably reduce the number of HE{ cars with the destructive testig.


Yeah, sounds like they're sacrificing at least 3 cars. I'm assuming that the "tear-down inspection" doesn't preclude putting those cars back together.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 22, 2022)

west point said:


> For us structural novicies what is the function of the "buffer" cars? Buffer against what? How will they prevent problems?


There crush zones. In this case there putting mass between the passenger carrying cars, and whatever trying to hit them. No its not going to help much, but with problems they have detected it something. More of a stop gap, into they determine the extent of the problem and develop a correction. Or order new equipment.


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## Urban Sky (Oct 22, 2022)

One just has to look at this picture of the 1986 Hinton collision to understand the merit of being as far away from the train in the (admittedly unlikely) event of a head-on collision:


Spoiler








There was one coach, one baggage car and two locomotives in front of that Skyline car…


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## TheMalahat (Oct 24, 2022)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How’s the trip going!?



Absolutely amazing. We actually had a death on board, tragic but natural circumstances. Certainly hadn't experienced that before.


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## geddyleesmullet (Oct 25, 2022)

jis said:


> The Carolina agency's heritage stock is scheduled to be replaced by ICT in 5-7 years, but if necessary, in the interim they might be substituted or buffered by Horizon Fleet cars taken out of Mothballs or released from the Midwest I suppose.
> 
> I cannot recall if VIA has a re-equiping plan for the long distance fleet. Does it? Where does it stand at present if it does?


I believe that Carolina heritage stock is mostly comprised of ACF (American and Car Foundry) and some Pullman coaches if I remember but no Budd cars.


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## desertflyer (Oct 25, 2022)

Via just about gave me a heart attack this morning.

Got this email about the Park Car being removed from our upcoming Canadian trip in November:






Then got this an hour later, with the subject line "correction" and then no mention of the Park Car being removed:


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## zephyr17 (Oct 25, 2022)

desertflyer said:


> Via just about gave me a heart attack this morning.
> 
> Got this email about the Park Car being removed from our upcoming Canadian trip in November:
> 
> ...


They must be subcontracting some of their IT to Amtrak.

There were some reports of that letter over on FB, freaking people out.

I will be on #2 on Monday, happily I didn't get it. My notification a couple weeks ago was only about baggage access.


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## PaTrainFan (Oct 25, 2022)

I had been firing myself up for a possible end to end trip on The Canadian in 2023, but this situation has me deflated. The experience will be appreciably diminished with a clunky additional car on the end of the obervation car.


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## MARC Rider (Oct 25, 2022)

If they put a flatcar at the end of the train after the observation car, would that (1) preserve at least some of the views from the rear of the observation car, and (2) be a suitable buffer car?


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## GDRRiley (Oct 25, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> If they put a flatcar at the end of the train after the observation car, would that (1) preserve at least some of the views from the rear of the observation car, and (2) be a suitable buffer car?


a flatbed isn't going to fix the issue, they could maybe use a loaded gondola as a buffer at the end of the train


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## PeeweeTM (Oct 26, 2022)

GDRRiley said:


> a flatbed isn't going to fix the issue, they could maybe use a loaded gondola as a buffer at the end of the train


Or an excess height box car with two big TV screens pointing at the passengers, connected to two cameras pointing at the tracks...  

I think, that gondola car idea would be nice.


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## jiml (Oct 28, 2022)

The mainstream media is starting to take notice:



Chris Selley: Via Rail cars are so old they need 'buffer cars' in case of a collision


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 30, 2022)

A buffer car at the end is a bit of a overreaction. I get the one up front. Your more than likely to hit something with the engine, then get ram from the rear. Yes it does happen, but the locomotives hitting a vehicle is a much more likely event.


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## Brian Battuello (Oct 30, 2022)

And I was finally starting to get my spouse interested in a mid-winter Canadian run. Would be my third and probably last goodbye to the dome cars. Has been a good run.


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## Trogdor (Oct 30, 2022)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> A buffer car at the end is a bit of a overreaction. I get the one up front. Your more than likely to hit something with the engine, then get ram from the rear. Yes it does happen, but the locomotives hitting a vehicle is a much more likely event.



I wouldn’t think a buffer car would be needed for road collisions, given that it would be the lead locomotive that would take the brunt of the damage. Instead, a rear-ender collision would (in theory) be equally likely if it were the VIA train doing the hitting or doing the being hit.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 30, 2022)

It's for train on train collisions, like the Edson wreck back in the 80s.

My opinion is it is an example of vast bureaucratic overreaction to a truly minimal threat.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 30, 2022)

I hope it’s a overreaction. Otherwise VIA needs to borrow some of Amtrak equipment soon.


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## zephyr17 (Oct 30, 2022)

A post I read in FB referred to them a "bumper cars". A poster known to be a VIA associate corrected them to "buffer".

Personally, I like it. Let's make "bumper cars" happen, shall we?


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## Ryan (Oct 30, 2022)

Buffet cars? I could eat, sounds delicious!


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