# Hierarchy between commercial airline crews and ships' crews



## LookingGlassTie (Mar 26, 2022)

Got an interesting question for y'all:

To use the RMS Titanic as an example (whodathunkit?), the Officer directly under Captain Edward Smith was Chief Officer Henry Wilde. Titanic's first officer was William Murdoch, who was directly under Wilde. Therefore Murdoch was third-in-command.

However, on a commercial airliner, the officer (co-pilot) directly under the captain is called "First Officer". Why isn't this person called "Chief Officer" given that he/she is second-in-command to the Captain?

Just curious!


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 27, 2022)

Probably has to do with crew sizes. Even in the days of transatlantic prop planes you might have had 4 people in the cockpit captain, copilot, navigator, and flight engineer. Still a lot smaller than the crew for any decent sized passenger ship, where the longer trip requires multiple watches with someone in charge for each watch.


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## west point (Mar 31, 2022)

In the past the flight engineer was often called the second officer.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 31, 2022)

west point said:


> In the past the flight engineer was often called the second officer.


My Late Uncle started with TWA as a Flight Engineer after getting out of the Air Force, and Retired as a Trans-Atlantic Captain ( New York-London)after 35 years.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 1, 2022)

In 1961 at the age of 11 flying back from London to Boston alone (as my Dad had returned 2 weeks earlier to return to work) the flight crew had taken me under their wing and during the Shannon refueling stop I got to visit the cockpit of our Pan Am DC-7C and I recall it had a flight engineer who was responsible for the care and feeding of our 4 recip engines. There may have been a navigator too I don't remember. In the days before GPS when real navigation was necessary.


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## west point (Apr 1, 2022)

Real navigation? What an art. Knew of some Pan Am pilots bumped back as total number of airplanes reduced as jets came online. The bump backs had to train as Navigators. The school was 54 weeks or longer if any test not passed. Some of our planes had the sextant openings and I tried to operate a sextant as a navigator would. I was completely lost trying to shoot a star shot even following the quick guide!
Captain and FO gave me a ribbing for my efforts.


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## ehbowen (Apr 1, 2022)

I couldn't find the original article, but I understand that about 17 years ago Steve Fossett was planning a transatlantic flight in an open-cockpit biplane (Vickers Vimy replica) with United 747 pilot Mark Rebholz. They wanted to use traditional celestial navigation, and Mark studied the skills. But it took a full year to find an FAA examiner who was qualified and willing to give him the exam!


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## BCL (Apr 19, 2022)

I'm sure that a lot of the titles came from Pan Am founder Juan Trippe, who was a Naval Aviator in the US Navy and who wanted to apply seafaring titles from the days of clipper ships. Quite a bit of his input is seen to this day in commercial aviation, including naval style dress uniforms and rank indicators at the end of the sleeves in dress uniforms. The pilot in command is the Captain, and second in command is the First Officer, which were common titles in clipper ships.


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## Palmland (Apr 19, 2022)

I may not remember this correctly but didn’t the early jets like the 727’s also have a navigator? I think I remember seeing a third officer in the cockpit. I always liked those planes and thought it weird to deplane at small airports by the stairs that dropped down from underneath the plane at the rear.


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## BCL (Apr 19, 2022)

Palmland said:


> I may not remember this correctly but didn’t the early jets like the 727’s also have a navigator? I think I remember seeing a third officer in the cockpit. I always liked those planes and thought it weird to deplane at small airports by the stairs that dropped down from underneath the plane at the rear.



Three-person crews were pretty standard with a flight engineer staring at a bunch of lights and dials. The flight engineer wouldn't be looking out the window and would have a lot of controls and stuff to monitor. A flight engineer wasn't necessarily qualified to be a pilot







These days a lot of those duties are automated.


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## PVD (Apr 19, 2022)

Engineer, not navigator


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## WWW (Apr 19, 2022)

In a small nut shell FYI

Most of the larger aircraft had a seat right behind the Captain and elevated a degree to observe all the flight deck officers.
It was called a Jump Seat - some had an additional seat with small fold down table behind that jump observer seat for a navigator.
Jump Seat riders were often Check-riding FAA personnel - Chief pilots observing cockpit protocol or other persons authorized by
the airline company - in one case an oversold flight a company CEO gave up his reserved seat to ride the cockpit - raves and kudos
The smaller planes with Captain & First Officer (Co-pilot) the jump seat was a fold down attachment to the back of the cabin-cockpit door -
talk about really tight operating quarters. With some airlines the Second Officer (Flight Engineer) was certified as a pilot - this was done
at a time when flight engineers had a union and the result to break the union was certification as a pilot dual role engineer - early 60's ?

In the above posted Flight Engineers Panel - - -
All those multiple gauges dials buttons busses with a 2 person flight deck those are moved into view of the both pilots are for the most
part automated - the function was fuel control cabin heating and electric functions of the aircraft.

4 stripers - Captain - scrambled egg cluster on cap bill
3 stripers - Co-Pilot First Officer - plain cap bill
Old school -
2 stripers - Navigators Engineers - plain cap bill
1 stripe - purser

Prior to inertial navigation - doppler navigation and long range radio some aircraft has a hole in the cockpit roof to poke a sextan device
to locate celestial bodies (stars) to record the present position. All that is history with satellite navigation

It was a wonderful life back in the golden years of aviation - for fun look at all the dials and gauges of a steam locomotive - no flight
requirements - you ain't getting one of these babies airborne !


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## jis (Apr 19, 2022)

WWW said:


> Prior to inertial navigation - doppler navigation and long range radio some aircraft has a hole in the cockpit roof to poke a sextan device
> to locate celestial bodies (stars) to record the present position. All that is history with satellite navigation


Those little windows were sometimes referred to as "eyebrows" IIRC.


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## PVD (Apr 19, 2022)

jis said:


> Those little windows were sometimes referred to as "eyebrows" IIRC.


yes
and since there was a rather low mandatory age for pilots but none for engineers, there were situations where pilots "bumped back" to keep working Airlines lost big in court trying to stop it.


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## west point (Apr 19, 2022)

Several points.
1. WWW is correct.
2. The engineer's panel for the B-727 is not an early production B-727. It appears to be a freighter conversion of a B-727-200. The giveaway is it has electronic pressurization controller. That is the stretched version of the -100s. The fuel panel indicates it was once a longer-Range aircraft that had the extra fuel tanks in the front and rear baggage compartments removed or rendered inoperative. That allows either bulk cargo or special containers for cargo.. Gross take off weight might be 208.000 # TOGW. The lights on the mini aircraft diagram are smoke detectors. 
3. About short range navigators. Before early 1960s domestic navigation was handled by using radio ranges that had quarter sections alternating between an "A" short long and a "N" a long short. If on airway the 2 blended in a solid tone. Station at center had a 2 or3 digit identifier and frequency that a direction finder could lock on. Was not easy. 
By 1965 enough VOs were installed in the US for all navigation although DME was not very available. Early domestic jets especially B-727s only had a 2 - 2-1/2 hour range with full loads . With VORs navigators not needed. 
4. Long range navigation was entirely different. Pan AM and TWA used navigators and the certification course was over a year long to qualify. Sextants were used to take sun and star charts used and very accurate clocks needed. Radio station WWV was very helpful for time checks. Another system was consul, consolation was used 3 stations at Nantucket, Wilmington, NC and somewhere on gulf coast were used. Stations were very powerful low frequency. WIL was 198Kz. The system had widths of just 6/10s of a degree that navigator had to count numbers. Then also Loran A also came out which was not easy. Will never forget said to me "Hey boy know how to work Loran? No? Get up hear and learn how" 3 trips I was really good but never had to use Loran A. Loran C auto track had come out with good speed lines NY to eastern Caribbean.
5. The first inertial navigation systems (INS) came out on B-747s for Pan Am.. The 3 systems all cost $250,000 each. Alignment took take a long time without any aircraft movement. The navigators had to go along for a long time because drift was cumulative over time for longer flights. Forgot when the various world locations qualified without a navigator. Also not certified above North 70?
6. Now Inertial reference systems (IRS) laser gyros with GPS updates are very accurate.. They are even used on Polar and south pole navigation.
7. Navigators now?? US air force? Russia in certain places??


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## Willbridge (Apr 20, 2022)

There's an interesting Pan Am film on their WWII operations that gives an idea of why navigation and radio operations were so critical.



I'm somewhat in awe of the navigation requirements. In Berlin the Army aviation people that I flew with used a city street map. I asked them why they didn't use some cool Jeppesen aviation map and was told that we'd be flying so low that we could just look out the window to see where we were.


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## ScottR (Apr 20, 2022)

west point said:


> Real navigation? What an art. Knew of some Pan Am pilots bumped back as total number of airplanes reduced as jets came online. The bump backs had to train as Navigators. The school was 54 weeks or longer if any test not passed. Some of our planes had the sextant openings and I tried to operate a sextant as a navigator would. I was completely lost trying to shoot a star shot even following the quick guide!
> Captain and FO gave me a ribbing for my efforts.


When I was in Newport RI at Navy OCS they still taught celestial navigation. The one fix i did to complete the course had us 30 miles out at sea. Unfortunately we were in the backyard of the one of the Salve Regina College mansions at the time. Still, I had us approximately in Newport which was better than most of my classmates, so I got a pass. I fortunately had some good Quartermasters for the rest of my career!


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## ScottR (Apr 20, 2022)

BCL said:


> Three-person crews were pretty standard with a flight engineer staring at a bunch of lights and dials. The flight engineer wouldn't be looking out the window and would have a lot of controls and stuff to monitor. A flight engineer wasn't necessarily qualified to be a pilot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone know what would happen if I pressed one of those 
big red buttons on the right? I’m guessing an engine shutdown or a flight attendant Call button? And at least we have a hanger. Those uniform jackets don’t press themselves! This is a great photo…thanks for posting it!


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## cirdan (Apr 20, 2022)

BCL said:


> The pilot in command is the Captain, and second in command is the First Officer, which were common titles in clipper ships.



Aren't those ultimately military titles?

In the history of maritime navigation, there was often a grey area between military and merchant navigation, with merchant vessels having cannons (to protect against pirates) and military vessels sometimes taking merchant cargos. At times of war governments would sometimes requisition merchant ships and the same crews would then serve in a military function, returning to their merchant function when the war was ended. Thus it would seem to me quite natural that military titles and protocols would be replicated in merchant navigation, basically out of necessity.

Military and civil aviation have always been more strictly separate, but as you say it is likely that maritime protocol influenced civil aviation.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 20, 2022)

west point said:


> 3. About short range navigators. Before early 1960s domestic navigation was handled by using radio ranges that had quarter sections alternating between an "A" short long and a "N" a long short. If on airway the 2 blended in a solid tone. Station at center had a 2 or3 digit identifier and frequency that a direction finder could lock on. Was not easy.
> By 1965 enough VOs were installed in the US for all navigation although DME was not very available. Early domestic jets especially B-727s only had a 2 - 2-1/2 hour range with full loads . With VORs navigators not needed.


When I was in the USAF (1971-1975) we had a low frequency beacon just off of our base that had been converted from a radio range. We only maintained it for the T-33 trainers which had it as a backup to the TACAN (military equivalent of the VOR) and used with their ADF equipment. Once the T-33s were retired so was the LFB. None of the more modern planes used the ADF.



west point said:


> 7. Navigators now?? US air force? Russia in certain places??


The F-111 fighter bombers had two in the cockpit, a pilot and a "navigator" who was really more of a bombardier role. I did get to fly in the right seat once in the F-111 simulator with a friend who was a pilot. As I recall he ended up "crashing" which ended our simulation run a little prematurely. The plane was pretty hi tech for its time, although in the DOD's attempt to build a plane that was a jack of all trades, it tended to be a master of none.

At one point in my career they were short of navigators and I considered going into navigator training but I flunked the eye test (too much astigmatism) even though they had relaxed the standards somewhat from the original 20/20 requirement.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 20, 2022)

cirdan said:


> Aren't those ultimately military titles?
> 
> In the history of maritime navigation, there was often a grey area between military and merchant navigation, with merchant vessels having cannons (to protect against pirates) and military vessels sometimes taking merchant cargos. At times of war governments would sometimes requisition merchant ships and the same crews would then serve in a military function, returning to their merchant function when the war was ended. Thus it would seem to me quite natural that military titles and protocols would be replicated in merchant navigation, basically out of necessity.
> 
> Military and civil aviation have always been more strictly separate, but as you say it is likely that maritime protocol influenced civil aviation.


I'd always thought that a lot of the titles in aviation, both civil and military, had originally come from the air services being run by the various navies (at least usually if I remember correctly).


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## cirdan (Apr 20, 2022)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> I'd always thought that a lot of the titles in aviation, both civil and military, had originally come from the air services being run by the various navies (at least usually if I remember correctly).


good point


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## Bob Dylan (Apr 20, 2022)

Willbridge said:


> There's an interesting Pan Am film on their WWII operations that gives an idea of why navigation and radio operations were so critical.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm somewhat in awe of the navigation requirements. In Berlin the Army aviation people that I flew with used a city street map. I asked them why they didn't use some cool Jeppesen aviation map and was told that we'd be flying so low that we could just look out the window to see where we were.



We pilots call that IFR, I follow Roads!


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## BCL (Apr 20, 2022)

Metra Electric Rider said:


> I'd always thought that a lot of the titles in aviation, both civil and military, had originally come from the air services being run by the various navies (at least usually if I remember correctly).



At least initially, Pan Am started off with flying boats.


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## Metra Electric Rider (Apr 20, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> We pilots call that IFR, I follow Roads!


I'm reminded of the old SNL commercial when US Air or Peoples Express debuted: the pilot was driving the plane on the interstate from LA to NYC.


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## railiner (Apr 20, 2022)

I believe the Pan Am Boeing 314 “Clipper” flying boats carried a crew of 13 on long transoceanic flights…
Captain, First Officer, Engineer, Navigator, Radio Operator, and a full relief crew. The cabin crew was a purser, and two stewards. The aircraft could sleep 40 passengers in Pullman style berths, or 74 passengers in day service.
The Engineer or his assistant could crawl thru a passageway thru each wing, and service or repair each engine in flight.

An amazing aircraft that had a brief career rendered obsolete when land planes could make the longer flights, and had runways to support them.


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## HenryK (Apr 21, 2022)

Interestingly, the FAA uses "Pilot in Command" instead of "Captain." I am studying for the Part 107 Unmanned Aerial System certificate and have noticed that.


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2022)

IIRC, the USAF uses “Aircraft Commander”, instead of “Captain”…


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## cirdan (Apr 21, 2022)

Just wondering why on an aircraft the pilot is always automatically the highest in command.

On a ship the helmsman is not typically the same person as the captain.

On Amtrak the conductor is senior to the engineer.


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2022)

cirdan said:


> Just wondering why on an aircraft the pilot is always automatically the highest in command.
> 
> On a ship the helmsman is not typically the same person as the captain.
> 
> On Amtrak the conductor is senior to the engineer.


Just my opinion, but the locomotive engineer, being the most responsible and skilled position on a train, should be in charge…


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## railiner (Apr 21, 2022)

railiner said:


> Just my opinion, but the locomotive engineer, being the most responsible and skilled position on a train, should be in charge…


IIRC, that’s the way it is on VIA Rail…


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## Ryan (Apr 21, 2022)

cirdan said:


> Just wondering why on an aircraft *the pilot is always automatically the highest in command.*
> 
> On a ship the helmsman is not typically the same person as the captain.
> 
> On Amtrak the conductor is senior to the engineer.


That brings to bear the pilot flying/pilot not flying distinction. Both humans in the front seats are pilots, so the bolded part doesn't make any sense. The "pilot flying" is whichever of the two is operating the aircraft, regardless of rank or seniority. The "pilot not flying"... isn't. Even if they are senior.

On a ship, they dynamic changes because of the length of the voyage - the Captain (who isn't always a Captain)/Master can't physically be present on the bridge 24/7, so you have the concept of the Officer of the Deck (US Navy)/Officer on Watch (civilian mariners) that is on watch on the bridge and is specifically entrusted by the CO/Master for the term of their watch (typically 3-6 hours). Those duties (looking out the windows, talking on the radio, watching the radar, supervising the nav/quartermaster team) are wholly incompatible with actually standing at the wheel and physically steering (with some notable exceptions on newer ships).


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## Dakota 400 (Apr 21, 2022)

railiner said:


> The Engineer or his assistant could crawl thru a passageway thru each wing, and service or repair each engine in flight.



I never knew that! Wow! That is rather like today on ships that have Azipods. If needed, a crew member can get into the interior of the pod to service or repair it.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 21, 2022)

When they started Space Force there was a discussion about whether the should use Naval ranks or Air Force ranks. In the end, they used Air Force ranks, which makes sense, because Space Force was just hived off the Air Force, and they don't fly any space ships, anyway.

On the other hand, the Starship Enterprise has a Captain and a First Officer, and they use naval ranks. But they're fictional.


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## jis (Apr 21, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> On the other hand, the Starship Enterprise has a Captain and a First Officer, and they use naval tanks. But they're fictional.


Just out of curiosity ... what are _naval tanks_?


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## HenryK (Apr 22, 2022)

Naval tanks are fictional, too.


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## MARC Rider (Apr 22, 2022)

HenryK said:


> Naval tanks are fictional, too.


One could consider the _USS Monitor_ to be a "naval tank," no?


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## MARC Rider (Apr 22, 2022)

jis said:


> Just out of curiosity ... what are _naval tanks_?


Oh, I thought I had fixed all those typos. Well, it's fixed now.


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## ScottR (Apr 22, 2022)

HenryK said:


> Naval tanks are fictional, too.


Well you‘ve got quite few! I used to have to go in and inspect them during my Navy days! List of Important and Not-So-Famous Tanks on a Ship Didn’t much care for the CHT tank….but needed a look every now and then as we didn’t want THAT one leaking.


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## WWW (Apr 22, 2022)

Moving this back into the center of discussion:
The Amtrak Conductors and cabin crew wear uniforms - nothing fancy - no stripes - but certainly functional to recognize them.
Now as for the Engineers - no more of the pinstripe jumpsuits with floppy cap head gear at least as far as I can observe.
Like the pilots of aircraft - you will see little of them ensconced in their own private office space.

In this day and age the captain's of industry don't always wear a suit coat and tie - more like jeans and denim shirt - such is
the work from home presentation.

So it is only fitting that the Conductor; the Master of the Train wear a fitting uniform to show who is in charge although he
is not really running the train per se that is having hands on the throttle !


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## jis (Apr 24, 2022)

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts pertaining to GPS and navigation have been moved out of this thread to its own thread:






GPS and navigation


Off thread a bit but relates to the issue of navigation. In this case Land Navigation returns to Army education It was one of the few parts of Basic Training that I was good at. It turns out that GPS isn't always available.




www.amtraktrains.com





Please direct posts on GPS and navigation to this new thread, and preserve this thread for discussing hierarchy and ranks of operating crew on various transport modes.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


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## Ryan (Apr 24, 2022)

jis said:


> Please direct posts on GPS and navigation to this new thread


What form of navigation device should I use to get to that thread?


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## jis (Apr 24, 2022)

Finger


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