# New Southern Belle



## jiml (Mar 21, 2021)

With the Kansas City Southern merger announced today, is there potential, market for or interest in a revival of the Southern Belle route between KC and New Orleans?


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## jis (Mar 21, 2021)

jiml said:


> With the Kansas City Southern merger announced today, is there potential, market for or interest in a revival of the Southern Belle route between KC and New Orleans?


Not in any current proposals or plans AFAIK.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 21, 2021)

Why would you think a merger between two large freight carriers would pave the way for a new LD train? Certainly CP and KCS aren't thinking about it.


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## railiner (Mar 21, 2021)

A think that a lot of other routes are more likely to have a 'revival' of service before that one does. More likely the ones that once were operated by Amtrak, and were cut. Or ones that lasted at least until Amtrak began. That one ended a year and a half prior....


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## jiml (Mar 21, 2021)

MikefromCrete said:


> Why would you think a merger between two large freight carriers would pave the way for a new LD train? Certainly CP and KCS aren't thinking about it.


It was just a discussion suggestion. In the current structure KCS wasn't ever required to run any train for Amtrak, but they have a good working relationship with CP. With the recent refocus on southeastern services and a "hub" at New Orleans, the Southern Belle might be a fit in the larger picture.


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## Cal (Mar 21, 2021)

MikefromCrete said:


> Why would you think a merger between two large freight carriers would pave the way for a new LD train? Certainly CP and KCS aren't thinking about it.


No, not enough equipment for a new route. But we can of course dream


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## Palmetto (Mar 21, 2021)

Cal said:


> No, not enough equipment for a new route. But we can of course dream




We do a lot of that here on occasion.


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## Cal (Mar 21, 2021)

Palmetto said:


> We do a lot of that here on occasion.


That's why I said it


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## Anthony V (Mar 22, 2021)

While I don't believe the entire former Southern Belle route will return to hosting passenger trains anytime soon, I do believe there is demand for passenger train service along the most densely-populated portion of the route - the route between New Orleans and Shreveport, LA, which includes Baton Rouge and Alexandria. This could be done as an extension of the proposed NOL - BTR train to Shreveport, where it could connect with a new DFW section of the Crescent, once proposed as the Crescent Star in the early 2000's. This would create a mini rail transport hub in Shreveport, while opening up new markets to passenger train travel.


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## Eric S (Mar 22, 2021)

Yeah, I agree with that. Service south of Shreveport to New Orleans seems much likelier than north of Shreveport to Kansas City. Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for New Orleans - Shreveport trains to start running. I know there are advocates pushing for New Orleans - Baton Rouge service, I think over the KCS line.


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## TheCrescent (Mar 22, 2021)

Doesn't Canadian Pacific run at least one passenger train on its own- the Royal Canadian Pacific or something? (A high-dollar excursion train.)

I see Class Is with stables of antique passenger cars, and near-zero visibility to the general public. I don't understand why Class Is don't run more excursion trains, at least for advertising, which should be positive. Maybe CP will run its own high-dollar excursion train, or some other excursion train, along KCS lines.

And doesn't "Canadian Pacific Kansas City" sound funny? This is a corporate name just itching for its last part to be dropped, like some companies with unwieldy names do. "Canadian Kansas Pacific" is kind of long but at least smoother.


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## jis (Mar 22, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> And doesn't "Canadian Pacific Kansas City" sound funny? This is a corporate name just itching for its last part to be dropped, like some companies with unwieldy names do. "Canadian Kansas Pacific" is kind of long but at least smoother.


I suspect they will change their official name to CPKC or even CPKX soon enough, like is fashionable among railroads these days.


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## Cal (Mar 22, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> And doesn't "Canadian Pacific Kansas City" sound funny? This is a corporate name just itching for its last part to be dropped, like some companies with unwieldy names do. "Canadian Kansas Pacific" is kind of long but at least smoother.


It does sound bad, I agree


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## jiml (Mar 22, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> Doesn't Canadian Pacific run at least one passenger train on its own- the Royal Canadian Pacific or something? (A high-dollar excursion train.)
> 
> I see Class Is with stables of antique passenger cars, and near-zero visibility to the general public. I don't understand why Class Is don't run more excursion trains, at least for advertising, which should be positive. Maybe CP will run its own high-dollar excursion train, or some other excursion train, along KCS lines.


In addition to the RCP you've mentioned, KCS has a really nice-looking business/passenger consist of their own. I posted a pic in the thread devoted to the acquisition.


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## jiml (Mar 22, 2021)

Cal said:


> It does sound bad, I agree


And Burlington Northern Santa Fe doesn't?


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## jis (Mar 22, 2021)

jiml said:


> And Burlington Northern Santa Fe doesn't?


But who spells it all the way out anymore? It is mostly BNSF.


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## jiml (Mar 22, 2021)

jis said:


> But who spells it all the way out anymore? It is mostly BNSF.


Which is why I agreed with your post that basically said to expect the same with CPKC or whatever the final choice is.


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## Cal (Mar 22, 2021)

jiml said:


> And Burlington Northern Santa Fe doesn't?


Sounds better. It's always been that for me, so that's the normal.


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## TrackWalker (Mar 22, 2021)

Burlington Northern Santa Fe went the same way as Kentucky Fried Chicken and became BNSF (or Bien SF to some) in about 2005. Personally, I always thought was simply to save paint.


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## jiml (Mar 22, 2021)

TrackWalker said:


> (or Bien SF to some)


Ah, the French translation.


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## MisterUptempo (Mar 22, 2021)

Just spitballin' here, but as far as what the combined CP/KCS might mean for passenger rail, I am wondering whether the merger might benefit Hiawatha/Empire Builder/CHI-MSP route. I refer to this paragraph from CP regarding the acquisition-


> CP and KCS interchange and operate an existing shared facility in Kansas City, Mo., which is the one point where they connect. This transaction will alleviate the need for a time consuming and expensive interchange, improving efficiency and reducing transit times and costs. The combination also will allow some traffic between KCS-served points and the Upper Midwest and Western Canada to *bypass Chicago via the CP route through Iowa*. This will improve service and has the potential to contribute to the reduction of rail traffic, fuel burn, and emissions in Chicago, an important hub city.


Bypassing Chicago by running through Iowa should free up some slots between Glenview and LaCrosse or so, no? An alternative future alignment for CHI-MSP envisioned LaCrosse to Rochester to MSP, which would get around any increased freight traffic on the current CP LaCrosse-MSP routing that might be utilized to bypass Chicago.



A full-size image is available at this link.

Also, haven't people here discussed a Northeast Seaboard to Dallas route? What about a train running along the current Crescent route then turn onto CP/KCS at Meridian to Shreveport to Dallas? Would CP be amenable to granting that? Could it be a condition for merger approval?

Like I said, just spitballin'.


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## Willbridge (Mar 23, 2021)

Regarding KCS passenger service, I agree that the lines around Shreveport are interesting. It's my impression that the KCS did as well as it did with passengers was due to offering friendly service. The UP in Portland liked sending passengers through their Kansas City connections because of the favorable comments, especially from people who had previously tried the SP.


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## jiml (Mar 23, 2021)

Willbridge said:


> Regarding KCS passenger service, I agree that the lines around Shreveport are interesting. It's my impression that the KCS did as well as it did with passengers was due to offering friendly service. The UP in Portland liked sending passengers through their Kansas City connections because of the favorable comments, especially from people who had previously tried the SP.


By fluke they had some of the newest equipment of the Class 1's, simply because they were the last to do a major fleet upgrade. Their Pullman cars dated from the mid-60's, while similar cars on other roads were 10-15 years older.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 26, 2021)

TheCrescent said:


> Doesn't Canadian Pacific run at least one passenger train on its own- the Royal Canadian Pacific or something? (A high-dollar excursion train.)
> 
> I see Class Is with stables of antique passenger cars, and near-zero visibility to the general public. I don't understand why Class Is don't run more excursion trains, at least for advertising, which should be positive. Maybe CP will run its own high-dollar excursion train, or some other excursion train, along KCS lines.
> 
> And doesn't "Canadian Pacific Kansas City" sound funny? This is a corporate name just itching for its last part to be dropped, like some companies with unwieldy names do. "Canadian Kansas Pacific" is kind of long but at least smoother.



Wherever you would like to ride the Royal Canadian Pacific they are happy to accommodate you if you have the money. If you want the price you can reach out to me, I was on the travel agent FAM trip they did in 2019 and I remember the rates they quoted for charters. But I'm not posting that publicly. But they can and will take their train on off network routes provided the other railroad approves, and the CP CEO approves. 



jiml said:


> By fluke they had some of the newest equipment of the Class 1's, simply because they were the last to do a major fleet upgrade. Their Pullman cars dated from the mid-60's, while similar cars on other roads were 10-15 years older.



And most of those cars are still active on North Carolina's Piedmont. The last private railroad Pullman order.


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## Hytec (Mar 29, 2021)

When CN purchased IC, the initial logo was CN/IC or CNIC. But that didn't last long. The logo on locomotives, new rolling stock, and correspondence is now merely CN.


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## jiml (Mar 29, 2021)

Hytec said:


> When CN purchased IC, the initial logo was CN/IC or CNIC. But that didn't last long. The logo on locomotives, new rolling stock, and correspondence is now merely CN.


Except on the brand new IC heritage unit, seen here west of Toronto, courtesy of Railpictures.ca.


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## railiner (Mar 29, 2021)

jiml said:


> Except on the brand new IC heritage unit, seen here west of Toronto, courtesy of Railpictures.ca.
> View attachment 21371


Nice that they have an ICRR heritage unit...but why, oh why, couldn't they have done it up in the chocolate, and orange scheme?

Image from American Rails. com:



illinois central trains lined up at central station - Google Search


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## John Santos (Mar 29, 2021)

Hytec said:


> When CN purchased IC, the initial logo was CN/IC or CNIC. But that didn't last long. The logo on locomotives, new rolling stock, and correspondence is now merely CN.


So they missed an advertising opportunity to say their railroad is "the most scenic in the world!"


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## MisterUptempo (Mar 29, 2021)

railiner said:


> but why, oh why, couldn't they have done it up in the chocolate, and orange scheme?



Tastiest livery in all railroading. Yum.


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 29, 2021)

railiner said:


> Nice that they have an ICRR heritage unit...but why, oh why, couldn't they have done it up in the chocolate, and orange scheme?
> 
> Image from American Rails. com:
> 
> ...



Well, for one thing, the chocolate and orange was only used on passenger units. IC's freight locos -- including the Geeps used in passenger service -- were always in black and white. During the ICG era, freight locos showed up in orange and white.


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## railiner (Mar 29, 2021)

MikefromCrete said:


> Well, for one thing, the chocolate and orange was only used on passenger units. IC's freight locos -- including the Geeps used in passenger service -- were always in black and white. During the ICG era, freight locos showed up in orange and white.


You're absolutely correct of course, historically speaking, but still....


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## mlanoue (Mar 30, 2021)

jiml said:


> Except on the brand new IC heritage unit, seen here west of Toronto, courtesy of Railpictures.ca.
> View attachment 21371



Woah--I saw that one or another one just like that a few weeks ago just sitting at an old EJ&E highway crossing in Grundy County, IL. I've seen it twice now. CN owns the "J" now, so that makes sense, but I didn't know it was a new heritage unit. That's nice!


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## jiml (Mar 30, 2021)

If you like the "J", watch for this one:


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 30, 2021)

CN recently unveiled a number of heritage units, including IC, EJ&E, GTW, Wisconsin Central.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 30, 2021)

On my last trip in Michigan in January I accidentally bumped into the BC Rail one twas a great snowy chase.


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## jiml (Mar 31, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> On my last trip in Michigan in January I accidentally bumped into the BC Rail one twas a great snowy chase.


The BC Rail one is sharp. Very reminiscent of the first Amtrak scheme on their P32's (the "Pepsi Can" livery, only less gaudy) and I think it would look good pulling a long consist of those new Midwest Siemens coaches.


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## Seaboard92 (Mar 31, 2021)

jiml said:


> The BC Rail one is sharp. Very reminiscent of the first Amtrak scheme on their P32's (the "Pepsi Can" livery, only less gaudy) and I think it would look good pulling a long consist of those new Midwest Siemens coaches.



After hearing how the Chargers did this last year I wouldn't be surprised if we see that happen at some point.


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## jiml (Mar 31, 2021)

Seaboard92 said:


> After hearing how the Chargers did this last year I wouldn't be surprised if we see that happen at some point.


Subject for another day, but I have wondered if both Amtrak and VIA will soon be looking for a non-Siemens long-distance locomotive from a "traditional" supplier.


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## mlanoue (Mar 31, 2021)

jiml said:


> If you like the "J", watch for this one:
> View attachment 21376



That's great! I've missed seeing that logo.



MikefromCrete said:


> CN recently unveiled a number of heritage units, including IC, EJ&E, GTW, Wisconsin Central.



Didn't know that--but it's nice to hear.


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## bms (Apr 4, 2021)

Going back to the original post: I don't think there would be enough business to justify a train from Kansas City to New Orleans, but I think if the train began in Denver, it would do much better. I have an idea for a Denver-Kansas City overnight train, but on the other side it is a Kansas City-New Orleans daytime train.


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## jiml (Apr 4, 2021)

Sounds promising, let's hear it.


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## PaTrainFan (Apr 4, 2021)

bms said:


> Going back to the original post: I don't think there would be enough business to justify a train from Kansas City to New Orleans, but I think if the train began in Denver, it would do much better. I have an idea for a Denver-Kansas City overnight train, but on the other side it is a Kansas City-New Orleans daytime train.



While your idea may have merit, let's face it, Amtrak has no intention of adding new overnight trains. They've proven it with this proposed map, and if given a choice, they would eliminated most of those currently in service.


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## Seaboard92 (Apr 4, 2021)

How would one route a Denver-New Orleans train via Kansas city via the direct UP EX Kansas Pacific route, or would you take the EX Burlington on the California Zephyr route to Omaha and then down to Kansas City. This routing would have better population.


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## toddinde (Apr 5, 2021)

bms said:


> Going back to the original post: I don't think there would be enough business to justify a train from Kansas City to New Orleans, but I think if the train began in Denver, it would do much better. I have an idea for a Denver-Kansas City overnight train, but on the other side it is a Kansas City-New Orleans daytime train.


If you want that, and I do, extend the Cardinal to Denver, and have a connection to the City of New Orleans. The Cardinal should definitely have a St Louis/Kansas City section. Kansas City to Denver would be a natural extension. Essentially on the schedule of the old City of St Louis. An overnight train from Denver to Kansas City would be a winner, and could provide Kansas residents in Manhattan and Topeka a morning run into Kansas City and an evening return.


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## bms (Apr 12, 2021)

This thread slipped my mind for a few days, but I took a look at the Southern Belle route again. Although it has good endpoints, on second thought, there really isn't enough population along the Southern Belle route to be worth reviving, at least not until ten better routes are revived. But this is the schedule I came up with for a Denver-Kansas City sleeper train:

Eastbound Colorado Eagle No. 14
*9:15* Dp Denver (MM 0) (Mountain Time)
*F 10:45 *Limon, CO (MM 89)
5:35 Manhattan, KS (MM 521) (Central Time)
6:25 Topeka, KS (MM 572)
6:55 Lawrence, KS (MM 600)
7:45 Ar Kansas City, MO (MM 640)
---
8:15 Dp Kansas City, MO (via Missouri River Runner No. 314)
*1:55* Ar St. Louis (via Missouri River Runner)

Westbound Colorado Eagle No. 13
*4:00* Dp St. Louis (via Missouri River Runner No. 313)
*9:40* Ar Kansas City, MO (via Missouri River Runner)
---
*10:10* Dp Kansas City, MO (Central Time)
*11:00* Lawrence, KS
*11:30* Topeka, KS
12:20 Manhattan, KS
*F* 6:10 Limon, CO (Mountain Time)
7:40 Denver, CO

I think this is an excellent sleeper route because there are big cities at either end, you can still pick up most of the population in Kansas, and you're running from 1-5 a.m. through areas that have barely any people anyway. Hopefully I didn't mess up the timing with the time zone changes - 95% of my life was spent in a single time zone so that's always my biggest challenge in this!

I planned this to connect to the Missouri River Runner, which resulted in somewhat undesirable times in Lawrence, Topeka, and Manhattan. I thought bringing in the Denver-St. Louis market was worth it.

At 640 miles, this train would have to be state-supported if it were a separate train from the connecting Missouri River Runner No. 313 / No. 314. However, it would qualify for Federal support if they added sleeper cars to the Missouri River Runner and branded it as a single train, running 923 miles. This schedule also connects to the California Zephyr in Denver.


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## railiner (Apr 12, 2021)

Kansas City to New Orleans train? Where have I heard that before? Hmmmm....let's see....oh yeah....


The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)



just kidding, guys...I know it's not what is being proposed here. But here's a thought for Denver - Kansas City...how about just a connection to the Chief at La Junta, serving Colorado Springs, and Pueblo?


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## bms (Apr 12, 2021)

railiner said:


> Kansas City to New Orleans train? Where have I heard that before? Hmmmm....let's see....oh yeah....
> 
> 
> The Museum of Railway Timetables (timetables.org)
> ...



Great post, I either never heard of the River Cities or I forgot about it over the years.

I would definitely support a connection to the Chief, but I got to thinking: To get better service between Denver and Los Angeles, it would make a lot more sense to just revive the Desert Wind rather than taking that roundabout route.


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## railiner (Apr 13, 2021)

bms said:


> Great post, I either never heard of the River Cities or I forgot about it over the years.
> 
> I would definitely support a connection to the Chief, but I got to thinking: To get better service between Denver and Los Angeles, it would make a lot more sense to just revive the Desert Wind rather than taking that roundabout route.


I would love to see the Desert Wind (as well as the Pioneer) brought back. As for a less "roundabout" route, if they ran a connection to the Chief at Trinidad instead (or in addition to) La Junta, that routing might be faster Denver to Los Angeles than the Desert Wind would....


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## VentureForth (Apr 14, 2021)

Kinda back to the original post, iirc, KCS with onboard with the proposed "Crescent Star" that Kay Bailey Hutchinson was pushing back in the late 90's early 00's. That never happened. Doubt we'll ever see the Southern Belle. 

I had an opportunity in 1991 to ride on what was one of the last ever LD passenger trains in Mexico. I just remember it to be a glorified bus. Was on there for nearly a day. Don't remember much about it, and I wasn't quite the railfan that I am today to have appreciated the journey more.


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## bms (Apr 17, 2021)

railiner said:


> I would love to see the Desert Wind (as well as the Pioneer) brought back. As for a less "roundabout" route, if they ran a connection to the Chief at Trinidad instead (or in addition to) La Junta, that routing might be faster Denver to Los Angeles than the Desert Wind would....



In my opinion, it would be best to reinstate the Pioneer and the Desert Wind. The cities served by these trains have gotten a lot bigger since they were discontinued.

The Pioneer would be a section of the Zephyr, and would leave Denver to serve Cheyenne, Boise, Portland, and Seattle.

The Desert Wind would also be a section of the Zephyr, and would leave Salt Lake City to serve Las Vegas and Los Angeles.


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## jiml (Apr 18, 2021)

bms said:


> In my opinion, it would be best to reinstate the Pioneer and the Desert Wind. The cities served by these trains have gotten a lot bigger since they were discontinued.
> 
> The Pioneer would be a section of the Zephyr, and would leave Denver to serve Cheyenne, Boise, Portland, and Seattle.
> 
> The Desert Wind would also be a section of the Zephyr, and would leave Salt Lake City to serve Las Vegas and Los Angeles.


It's not like they don't have an historical reference to follow. 

I know places like Columbus, OH, rank high on the list of large cities not served by Amtrak, but wonder where Metropolitan Las Vegas is on that list.


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## hlcteacher (Apr 18, 2021)

would LOVE to see these back!!!!!


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## bms (Apr 20, 2021)

jiml said:


> It's not like they don't have an historical reference to follow.
> 
> I know places like Columbus, OH, rank high on the list of large cities not served by Amtrak, but wonder where Metropolitan Las Vegas is on that list.








List of major cities in the United States lacking inter-city rail service - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Las Vegas ranks first on the list, followed by Columbus, Nashville, and Louisville. If you don't count Maricopa as serving Phoenix (and I don't), then Phoenix would easily be #1.

Al those cities are proposed to gain regional service on the "Amtrak Connects US" map released last month, but that map doesn't show any new long-distance services. It seems that the 750-mile rule for state subsidies is effectively preventing any new long-distance services from even being considered.


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