# Modified Dining Car Service on Lake Shore Limited Effective 7/20/16



## AmtrakLKL (Jul 16, 2016)

Effective July 20 westbound and July 21 eastbound, the Lake Shore Limited dining car will be replaced with an Amfleet II Lounge. Therefore the train will operate with two lounge cars, one continuing to provide regular lounge service and the other providing a "modified" dining car service.

No word yet on what the modified service means as far as menus, service, options, etc. At least it isn't being called Diner-Lite as on the Cardinal, so maybe that's good news. I expect this will continue until enough Viewliner II diners are in service to provide reliable service.


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## Acela150 (Jul 16, 2016)

Here we go again.. FIRE BOARDMAN!


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## jis (Jul 16, 2016)

Acela150 said:


> Here we go again.. FIRE BOARDMAN!


Chill! In case you did not notice he is leaving in another ten weeks anyway.  
Of course firing him or anyone else won't make serviceable Diners appear magically either.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 16, 2016)

Yep, put the screws to the Factory to get the New Diners finished and released for testing, this should be Job One for 60 Mass!


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## Amtrak288 (Jul 16, 2016)

The Heritage Diners have always been my favorite cars on Amtrak because of the history behind them, I will miss them, but let's face it, these cars are pushing 70 years old! I don't even think Budd expected them to last this long! Those new Viewliner II diners can't get here fast enough! I'm riding #49 later this year and would rather have my Railroad French Toast in an actual dining car, but knowing this, I'm not holding my breath.


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## Acela150 (Jul 16, 2016)

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> > Here we go again.. FIRE BOARDMAN!
> ...


Yes, you're right. 

Seems that this is a result of "CAF Cars Are Fictional"...


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## GaSteve (Jul 16, 2016)

AmtrakLKL said:


> Effective July 20 westbound and July 21 eastbound, the Lake Shore Limited dining car will be replaced with an Amfleet II Lounge. Therefore the train will operate with two lounge cars, one continuing to provide regular lounge service and the other providing a "modified" dining car service.
> 
> No word yet on what the modified service means as far as menus, service, options, etc. At least it isn't being called Diner-Lite as on the Cardinal, so maybe that's good news. I expect this will continue until enough Viewliner II diners are in service to provide reliable service.


A lounge is substituted for a full diner on the Crescent from time to time. The menu is decent, but all microwaved. The most significant change is breakfast which can't offer freshly prepared omelets or scrambled eggs.

You can bet the reason why is that the old diners are slowly falling offline and they're trying to keep them on at least some trains. It has nothing to do with Boardman.


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## dlagrua (Jul 16, 2016)

The management at Amtrak needs to realize that although they are government subsidized they are still running a transportation business that competes with buses, the airlines and driving. The purpose of any business is to thrive,by making it attractive to customers, and potential new customers. The object is obviously to have travelers select Amtrak over other modes of transportation. There is only so long that you can try to "cut your way to profitability" before the business starts falling off.

Over the past few years we have seen sharply rising prices and a lower level of service and amenities. We use to take the Autotrain regularly until the amenities disappeared and fares rose to where we now feel that driving to Florida is the more cost effective option. Many others must feel the same way as the Autotrain is now running a discounted special package to prop up sales.

The number of passengers using Amtrak is declining for the first time in years. The cause must be examined and solutions put in place. We still have a couple of Amtrak trips planned for this year, but are rethinking our future use of the service. We will most likely still use Amtrak but intend to cut back some.. Hope that my comments are considered as constructive and will eventually be evaluated by the new Amtrak President that rumor has it will be John Mica. .


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## xyzzy (Jul 16, 2016)

Only a matter of time until all diners are gone from eastern LD trains except 52/53, notwithstanding the decision years ago to order new low-level diners.

There are many reasons why Amtrak ridership is declining. Reduced amenities is not the most likely cause. Fewer people under age 30 are interested in overnight train travel in the east regardless of amenities. They want day trains on relatively fast schedules, and they want reliable service -- two things that Amtrak's eastern LD operations do not offer. It's that simple.

Yes there are people who want traditional amenities, and some of them are 30-. But there aren't enough of them to sustain the service financially. There's a reason why eastern LD consists, aside from 52/53, have been steadily shrinking for 30 years.

Out west, people who want to "see the country" create a different market.


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## GaSteve (Jul 16, 2016)

xyzzy said:


> Only a matter of time until all diners are gone from eastern LD trains except 52/53, notwithstanding the decision years ago to order new low-level diners.
> 
> There are many reasons why Amtrak ridership is declining. Reduced amenities is not the most likely cause. Fewer people under age 30 are interested in overnight train travel in the east regardless of amenities. They want day trains on relatively fast schedules, and they want reliable service -- two things that Amtrak's eastern LD operations do not offer. It's that simple.
> 
> ...


All I can tell you is that 19/20 adds an extra coach on weekends because of demand for a total of four.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jul 16, 2016)

GaSteve said:


> xyzzy said:
> 
> 
> > Only a matter of time until all diners are gone from eastern LD trains except 52/53, notwithstanding the decision years ago to order new low-level diners.
> ...


That doesn't necessarily increase diner service demand. I don't know how popular al a carte diner service is but I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.

If the alternative to cutting diners is cutting trains, I'll take cutting diners. Who knows, maybe the money saved could free up money for a new train or two. You might not be satisfied with a diner car less Three Rivers but I can assure you I will. And I'd much rather have the Silver Star around diner less than canceled. If everyone thought like some of you who think losing Amtrak steaks is the end of the world and stopped riding the Star, you might not have to complain about a diner less Star much longer. Luckily they haven't lost that much ridership.


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## StriderGDM (Jul 16, 2016)

Ridership declining? Over 2014, yeah 2015 was down, but for a variety of reasons and I can almost guarantee the diners had nothing to do with that.

The lack of diners does suck. No doubt about it.

But I can't imagine that Amtrak isn't riding herd on CAF, but there's only so much that can be done at this point.

They rolled out the baggage cars and found lots of issues. Some could be fixed in the field and so Amtrak could keep using them, some couldn't. And quite honestly, worst case with a bad baggage car is toss baggage into a coach car.

I'd rather have limited/modified dining car service for a while than cars receiving cars that are continually being shopped because they're not ready.

Yeah, it sucks, but not much more can be done than wait and hope that Amtrak and CAF really DO wring out the bugs.


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## bretton88 (Jul 16, 2016)

What is happening is Amtrak is making the decision to discontinue capital maintenance on the heritage diners since they are to be retired. The idea was that CAF would deliver the new diners before too many fell out of service. However the delays have been so bad at CAF it has forced Amtrak to have to look into what trains to reduce dining service on until the new diners arrive. It was one of those plans that looked good on paper until CAF screwed everything up.


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## the_traveler (Jul 16, 2016)

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.


I beg to differ. Yes, the café is faster, but it is not always cheaper.
For example, at lunch if you want a burger, chips, soda and other things, I think it may cost less for those items in the DC than the café.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 16, 2016)

the_traveler said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.
> ...


Used to be true @ Breakfast too until the nickel and Dime cuts made everything a la carte in the Diner for Coach passengers.

I still think breakfast is the best meal on the LD trains for Sleeping Car passengers since there is no charge for "extras".


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## afigg (Jul 16, 2016)

Total ridership on the LD trains is up +2.8% for the first 8 months of FY2016. Now, yes, that is a rebound from previous LD ridership declines, steeper at -4,4% in FY2014, and a smaller drop of -1.2% in FY2015. But much of the loss in ridership in those years can be attributed to the Empire Builder, Texas Eagle (in 2014), LSL (in 2014). Those declines were mostly due to the extreme delays or service interruptions caused by freight congestion, track work, more than anything else. The dropoff for the AutoTrain and the Silvers can arguably be attributed in part to the loss of amenities, but the fall in gasoline prices is also a factor.

I think what is happening with the Heritage diner cars is that Amtrak is paying the price for halting maintenance overhauls on the diner cars several years ago. Overhauls are expensive. Management obviously expected the new Viewliner II diner cars to be in service well before the Heritage diner cars deteriorated too far to remain in service, but that decision has not worked out. At all. Amtrak has only 25 Amfleet II diner/lounge cars, so they don't have enough of them to put two Amfleet II diner cars on each single level LD train that currently has Heritage diner cars.

An honest and open statement from Amtrak management on the situation and the status of the CAF order would be a good move on their part, but I don't expect that from the company given its corporate culture.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Jul 16, 2016)

the_traveler said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> > I'm guessing it isn't that popular given they can always get cafe/lounge car food for less money and it's faster service.
> ...


On the LSL, the Angus Cheeseburger is $7.25 from the cafe car and $12.50 ($11.50+$1 for cheese) from the diner car. You get chips from the diner car while chips in the cafe car are $2.25 (total $9.50). So it's $3 less from the cafe. Drinks are extra in both cases.

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/198/849/National-Cafe-Menu-0515.pdf

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/160/444/Lake-Shore-Limited-Dining-Car-Menu-0406.pdf

I don't see any other comparable items. I guess you can compare the breakfast sandwich ($4.75) to the scrambled eggs ($7.50, meat extra).


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 16, 2016)

Since I'm not the most direct person on this board, I tried to drop a hint last week in the Max cars per loco? thread:



Thirdrail7 said:


> norfolkwesternhenry said:
> 
> 
> > I am travelling on Via rails Canadian tonight, which has 26 passenger cars, and the consist says only two locomotives, (F40PH's), is this enough to pull it all the way over the rockies? Is there a similar system with Amtrak cars/locos, what is the approx ratio, because my TE only had one P42, and 8 cars, and these were Superliners, what is the ratio for Amfleet/Horizon, Amfleet/Horizon/Viewliner, and Superliners? Is amtrak just too "wimpy" to put less than two on some trains? I know more engines improves acceleration, but what about the fuel?
> ...



I further tried to emphasize the condition by making a strategic effort to update the Amtrak heritage cars retirement thread:



Thirdrail7 said:


> This looks a lot better to me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do the math and you'll come to the same conclusion that is listed below:



Thirdrail7 said:


> CSXfoamer1997 said:
> 
> 
> > The Viewliner Diners and other cars have been seriously delayed and the diners still haven't even been taken to Hialeah yet.
> ...


There are currently 11 heritage diners and the 8400 dining car operational. That's a total of 12 cars available and you currently need for 11 service on any given day. If you lose two, you're in the bag.



bretton88 said:


> What is happening is Amtrak is making the decision to discontinue capital maintenance on the heritage diners since they are to be retired. The idea was that CAF would deliver the new diners before too many fell out of service. However the delays have been so bad at CAF it has forced Amtrak to have to look into what trains to reduce dining service on until the new diners arrive. It was one of those plans that looked good on paper until CAF screwed everything up.


This is not necessarily true. What is listed below is closer to reality.:



Amtrak288 said:


> The Heritage Diners have always been my favorite cars on Amtrak because of the history behind them, I will miss them, but let's face it, these cars are pushing 70 years old! I don't even think Budd expected them to last this long! Those new Viewliner II diners can't get here fast enough!


The diners have been shot and on life support for the better part of the last few years. Even taking some out of service in an effort to gain parts for rest can only buy you so much time. At this point, the cars are almost unable to be repaired. They have served us well but there is just nothing left in some of their tanks.

Something had to be done. You can't keep waiting for PD98 and/or PD20 to arrive in SSYD, hope that the dining car isn't shopped to add the departing trains for the day. They have been taking bath and most efforts are concentrated on protecting 97 but it also the last LD train. Things roll downhill.

Therefore, a plan was made to attempt to curb the uncertainty. You know longer have to worry about which train is going to get the shaft at the last minute. There is a bit of breathing room until the next diner fails completely.

The Lake Shore was one of the initial diner lite trains and it has the least amount of seatings. It makes sense to rob the Lake Shore to protect the Meteor and the Crescent.

As for what happens when the CAF cars come online, that is a decision that will ultimately be decided by the next regime and Congress, who mandated Amtrak make all attempts to curtail F&B losses.


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## tommylicious (Jul 16, 2016)

Glad we rode it in the spring with full heritage diner, which was excellent. They ain't comin' back and neither are we to eat in those nasty, nasty lounges.


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## Big Iron (Jul 16, 2016)

Looks like this might have started sooner. 49 just went through Chesterton, IN with two lounge cars, 4:28 hours down and ahead of 29 which is 5:40 down.


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## philabos (Jul 16, 2016)

Bob Dylan said:


> Yep, put the screws to the Factory to get the New Diners finished and released for testing, this should be Job One for 60 Mass!


Question - has CAF started production on the diners yet?


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## jis (Jul 16, 2016)

Yes. They are apparently all built. They are having difficulty passing acceptance test apparently. Maybe Thirdrail or someone else from Amtrak say something more definitive, but then again maybe not. I was told about the completion of building by a high up person in the know, so maybe it is correct.


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 16, 2016)

So as I said, the Suits in 60 Mass need to get off their duffs ( Smiling Joe probably doesn't care, he's busy lining up Consultant Business for post-retirement) and get these cars fixed, tested and into Service yesterday!


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## Lonestar648 (Jul 16, 2016)

If the all Viewliner Diners are completed, then where are they sitting? If none of the completed cars can pass acceptance testing, could Amtrak quietly decide to cancel the contract for failing to build an acceptable product?


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## railiner (Jul 16, 2016)

afigg said:


> .
> 
> An honest and open statement from Amtrak management on the situation and the status of the CAF order would be a good move on their part, but I don't expect that from the company given its corporate culture.


I am 'late' following this subject....has anything been released from Amtrak or the manufacturer regarding the delays or problems with these order's?


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## jis (Jul 16, 2016)

Not to my knowledge.


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## xyzzy (Jul 16, 2016)

GaSteve said:


> All I can tell you is that 19/20 adds an extra coach on weekends because of demand for a total of four.


I'm not impressed. I used to see 1/2 and 19/20 operate with 6-8 coaches depending on the season. The same thing has happened to the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, which used to be 15-19 car trains and are now 11 or less. Yes, the Amfleet II coaches have slightly more seats than the Heritage cars they replaced, but the difference is minor. Demand is down, and I don't believe it has much to do with diner-or-no-diner. Eventually you reach the point where something major like checked baggage service, the diner, or the lounge has to go. The diner is the easy choice.


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## Triley (Jul 16, 2016)

Lonestar648 said:


> If the all Viewliner Diners are completed, then where are they sitting? If none of the completed cars can pass acceptance testing, could Amtrak quietly decide to cancel the contract for failing to build an acceptable product?


And where would that put us? It's already been mentioned that there isn't enough diners to cover the single level trains. Nor are there enough dinettes to cover the single level trains. So if we want to see ALL diner service cut on the single levels....sure, cancel the order.


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## Lonestar648 (Jul 16, 2016)

I was concerned that this might be a way to eliminate east coast diners for café/lounges permanently.


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## A Voice (Jul 16, 2016)

xyzzy said:


> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> > All I can tell you is that 19/20 adds an extra coach on weekends because of demand for a total of four.
> ...


Did demand decline or did the level of service drop?

Remember that both the 15-19 car Silver Star and Silver Meteor ran as two sections south of either Jacksonville or Auburndale, and both used to serve Tampa, along with the S-line via Ocala. When you reduce service to that great an extent, you shouldn't be surprised when you have fewer passengers.

Note also that the consists did not shrink when Amfleet II cars replaced Heritage coaches; That happened years later when Amtrak "standardized" on a set consist of four coaches and two sleepers and ceased splitting the trains. You also cannot definitely state that demand is down when you cut capacity.


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## Carolina Special (Jul 17, 2016)

In the past week I booked a sleeper trip to New Orleans on the Crescent for August. I've chosen to start from WAS instead of CVS to get the full diner dinner experience on Day 1, since Day 2 is likely to be the Express Service due to the early arrival time in New Orleans. So I'm selfishly glad the Lake Shore is getting the downgrade right now instead of the Crescent.

Also, in the future when ThirdRail starts talking about "change", I will not be a wide-eyed optimist and presume that the potential change will be a positive development.


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## jis (Jul 17, 2016)

This may be because Lake Shore is targeted for getting the new cars first, as they start arriving.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 17, 2016)

Carolina Special said:


> In the past week I booked a sleeper trip to New Orleans on the Crescent for August. I've chosen to start from WAS instead of CVS to get the full diner dinner experience on Day 1, since Day 2 is likely to be the Express Service due to the early arrival time in New Orleans. So I'm selfishly glad the Lake Shore is getting the downgrade right now instead of the Crescent.
> 
> Also, in the future when ThirdRail starts talking about "change", I will not be a wide-eyed optimist and *presume that the potential change will be a positive development.*


I agree. I was thinking a couple of new diners were coming out soon.


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## xyzzy (Jul 17, 2016)

A Voice said:


> You also cannot definitely state that demand is down when you cut capacity.


If demand were still high and Amtrak had arbitrarily reduced supply, Amtrak would be able to increase prices. We see no evidence of that, even in sleepers where the no-diner experiment on the Silver Star has reportedly driven up demand for accommodations. The more likely situation is that demand has fallen and Amtrak has prudently reduced capacity in proportion, thereby reducing expenses.

Falling demand is easy to understand, given that Southwest and Jetblue have driven down prices in the east and given the prolonged unreliability of the Florida trains against published schedules. Last time I did the math, the airlines had over 10,000 nonstop seats a day from northeast markets to Florida -- and more seats on connections. This is radically different from 1971-1985 when Amtrak and Southern operated longer consists. Meanwhile almost everyone living in the southeast who has ever ridden Amtrak more than a time or two has a horror story to tell about lengthy delays. After a while, this ill will does add up.


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## tommylicious (Jul 17, 2016)

well i hope this thread is right, that this is prep for the viewliner diners and not yet another deprecation of service with all those heritage units sitting in the chicago yard.


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## tommylicious (Jul 17, 2016)

Here is some Viewliner II diner action to tide us over:


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## GaSteve (Jul 17, 2016)

tommylicious said:


> Here is some Viewliner II diner action to tide us over:


The 8400 has been on 19/20 twice in the past week.


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## GaSteve (Jul 17, 2016)

tommylicious said:


> well i hope this thread is right, that this is prep for the viewliner diners and not yet another deprecation of service with all those heritage units sitting in the chicago yard.


If they were serviceable, they wouldn't be in the yard.


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## rph (Jul 17, 2016)

Wish they could have held off for another couple weeks. Taking our first Amtrak trip next week on the LSL & EB to Glacier Park, heard mostly good reviews on the Amtrak diner food and was looking forward to the eating on a train experience. Sorry to hear it might end up being donut holes from the café, at least on the LSL.

I live about 50 miles east of the CAF Elmira plant, didn't even know they had a contract for the new Viewliners.


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## seat38a (Jul 18, 2016)

Personally, if they replaced the diners with EB PDX version of boxed meals, I'd be happy with it, but the extra lounge heated burgers not so much.



DSC00945 by B H, on Flickr



DSC00943 by B H, on Flickr

Also, they loaded Chicken Dinner's in Havre Montana. I was fine with the taste as well, and would not actually mind locally prepped, meals picked up along the route.



DSC01142 by B H, on Flickr

Really after the SWC service 2 weeks ago, I would have much preferred one of these boxes served on the EB.


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## caravanman (Jul 18, 2016)

Let's hope they cook up a few meals in the new diners before they enter service... Don't want that metalic taste from new kitchen goods that say "wash before use" . 

Ed.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jul 18, 2016)

seat38a said:


> Personally, if they replaced the diners with EB PDX version of boxed meals, I'd be happy with it, but the extra lounge heated burgers not so much.


Sorry, but reminds me of the Swanson TV dinners I ate, back when I first started living on my own after graduation. hboy:


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## JoeBas (Jul 18, 2016)

I'm sure most Amtrak routes pass fairly close to some prisons as they make their way across the country; given our incarceration rate it'd be hard not to. Couldn't we just have prisons prepare a delectable selection of choice nutritional options for delivery to the train at specified points? Even if the train is late, it's not like the staff is GOING anywhere! (Unless it's 3-6 for B&E late)...


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## ToniCounter (Jul 18, 2016)

What are the breakfast hours on the eastbound LSL?

Thanks!


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## rtabern (Jul 19, 2016)

If they had to cut diners... I guess the LSL was the train to do it on. Going east you only get a breakfast and a lunch anyway in the dining car. Heck... just put out some juice and muffins and a build your own sandwich bar for lunch... and you dont even need the extra cafe car.

This is another reason I dont see us ever going from Chicago east on Amtrak. All trains now lack good service in the diner. #50 and #59 went to this horrible microwave meal thing on May 1st. They basically peal this plastic film off your TV dinner and serve it to you. We rode #30 in late April and our 8:30pm CT dining car time didnt get seated until 10:05pm CT with the Cross Country Cafe setup. Now this with #48?

I will just take a private car east if a trip is available OR fly on Southwest for $69 to BWI or LGA.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 19, 2016)

Triley said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> > If the all Viewliner Diners are completed, then where are they sitting? If none of the completed cars can pass acceptance testing, could Amtrak quietly decide to cancel the contract for failing to build an acceptable product?
> ...


Does Amtrak really need single level dining cars anymore? Seems like overkill for the remaining menu options and staff reductions. If Amtrak can find a way to offload those orders or to convert the dining cars to something that can generate appreciable revenue then why not?


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## BranchLine (Jul 19, 2016)

Just to make note, as it is relevant to this topic: I caught the 49-18 through Toledo this morning and this particular train already had 2 Amfleet II lounge cars. I hope that isn't the case tomorrow, as I hope to go out and see 49-19 with a heritage diner one last time.


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## Railroad Bill (Jul 19, 2016)

ToniCounter said:


> What are the breakfast hours on the eastbound LSL?
> 
> Thanks!


Normally breakfast begins at 6:30 between Cleveland and Erie, Pa


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## Lazy Z (Jul 19, 2016)

rph said:


> Wish they could have held off for another couple weeks. Taking our first Amtrak trip next week on the LSL & EB to Glacier Park, heard mostly good reviews on the Amtrak diner food and was looking forward to the eating on a train experience. Sorry to hear it might end up being donut holes from the café, at least on the LSL.
> 
> I live about 50 miles east of the CAF Elmira plant, didn't even know they had a contract for the new Viewliners.


Taking our first LSL soon too! Disappointed to miss out as well!!


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## jis (Jul 19, 2016)

I think the first group of us going to the OTOL Fest were on the last LSL with a full Diner. Alan who was on the train the day after had two Amfleet II Lounges.

The CAF thing is turning out to be one of the most spectacular failures of the Boardman regime at Amtrak. Good intentions but very poor execution.


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## seat38a (Jul 20, 2016)

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> seat38a said:
> 
> 
> > Personally, if they replaced the diners with EB PDX version of boxed meals, I'd be happy with it, but the extra lounge heated burgers not so much.
> ...


LOL, sure beats getting something like this instead.



IMG_0456 by B H, on Flickr


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jul 20, 2016)

If that was me, I would replace a can of diet Pepsi with a can of beer. I would rather imbibe with beer than have my teeth wear out from the Pepsi. But a good combination otherwise. I usually get burgers, chips, and a can of beer for a lunch substitution, for rides less than 12 hours (such as my Portland-Klamath runs)


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## seat38a (Jul 20, 2016)

bmjhagen9426 said:


> If that was me, I would replace a can of diet Pepsi with a can of beer. I would rather imbibe with beer than have my teeth wear out from the Pepsi. But a good combination otherwise. I usually get burgers, chips, and a can of beer for a lunch substitution, for rides less than 12 hours (such as my Portland-Klamath runs)


It was the "Combo" meal they serve on the Surfliner. You can pick a soda but no beer. I've asked  But what you are not seeing in this picture, are two single serve bottles of wine that I already finished that comes with the business class ticket


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## tommylicious (Jul 20, 2016)

Gas station food.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jul 20, 2016)

seat38a said:


> bmjhagen9426 said:
> 
> 
> > If that was me, I would replace a can of diet Pepsi with a can of beer. I would rather imbibe with beer than have my teeth wear out from the Pepsi. But a good combination otherwise. I usually get burgers, chips, and a can of beer for a lunch substitution, for rides less than 12 hours (such as my Portland-Klamath runs)
> ...


My bad, did not know it was a Surfliner. I was going to say that's how I get when I do short hops on the CS. For a second, I thought it did not look like the Surfliner.


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## ToniCounter (Jul 21, 2016)

Railroad Bill said:


> ToniCounter said:
> 
> 
> > What are the breakfast hours on the eastbound LSL?
> ...


Thanks! We get on the train at Cleveland. As of this morning, there are still no roomette or bedroom available. How to we, as coach passengers, get a reservation to have breakfast once we're onboard?


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## Lakeshore (Jul 21, 2016)

You won't need a reservation for breakfast. Just show up and you will be seated.

Dinner is the only meal that you have to have a seating time. Lunch seems to be about 50/50.


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## jis (Jul 21, 2016)

Yesterday (7/20/2016) was the last day of Full Diner service on 48. Our own Alan is on board to report on it.

Alan also experienced the Diner in Lounge service on his way out last week on 49. He said that the thing missing was the Steak. He had the Crab Cakes and he said it was fine. I would be OK if the Crab Cakes and the Chicken are still available.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 21, 2016)

Now that Steak Island™ is apparently sinking beneath the waves I wonder which remaining entree become the standard bearing replacement.


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## jis (Jul 21, 2016)

Until they find a vacuum packed version of Steak LOL!


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## A Voice (Jul 21, 2016)

jis said:


> Until they find a vacuum packed version of Steak LOL!


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## amtrakmichigan (Jul 21, 2016)

Any word on what has changed on the breakfast menu? I will be on 49 into Chicago this weekend. I hope it's better than what's offered on the Cardinal or CONO!!


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 21, 2016)

The next step for #48/#49: Raise the Rail Fares and Room Charges to make up for the lost revenue from the Diner!

Brilliant!


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## striker64 (Jul 21, 2016)

So does that mean the diner is no longer included with the ticket price for rooms, or is it just going to be different food?

We have an LSL trip planned NYP-Chicago, but if it's a severe reduction in service maybe we'll consider switching to NER to WAS and riding the Capitol Limited instead. We've never taken either line so we can be flexible!


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## zephyr17 (Jul 21, 2016)

striker64 said:


> So does that mean the diner is no longer included with the ticket price for rooms, or is it just going to be different food?
> 
> We have an LSL trip planned NYP-Chicago, but if it's a severe reduction in service maybe we'll consider switching to NER to WAS and riding the Capitol Limited instead. We've never taken either line so we can be flexible!


My impression is that it was going to service similar to the Cardinal. So it is included, for what it is worth.


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## VT Hokie (Jul 21, 2016)

jis said:


> The CAF thing is turning out to be one of the most spectacular failures of the Boardman regime at Amtrak. Good intentions but very poor execution.


The price of rewarding bad behavior and expecting different results? Same management that allowed the Super Steel Turboliner rebuild to produce nothing but money down the toilet and fancy trains that sit hidden in a rail yard collecting dust and rust.


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## bmjhagen9426 (Jul 21, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Now that Steak Island™ is apparently sinking beneath the waves I wonder which remaining entree become the standard bearing replacement.


If this is going on, any word of similar cuts to other LD trains (besides the obvious LSL, Cardinal, Silver Starvation, or CONO)? I surely would not like it if I found out that the steak was gone on my multiple-night trips.


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## jis (Jul 21, 2016)

Currently this should affect only the single level trains. If they lose the next set of Heritage Diners, I surmise it is the Crescent that will get hit next.

When (if) the CAF Diners start arriving, this trend will get reversed hopefully.


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## ToniCounter (Jul 21, 2016)

Lakeshore said:


> You won't need a reservation for breakfast. Just show up and you will be seated.
> 
> Dinner is the only meal that you have to have a seating time. Lunch seems to be about 50/50.


what are the typical breakfast items available on this train? and what kind prices?

Thanks!


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## taikodrum (Jul 21, 2016)

This is the new menu, right?

https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/667/945/Lake-Shore-Limited-Dining-Car-Menu-0720.pdf


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## jis (Jul 21, 2016)

A Voice said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > Until they find a vacuum packed version of Steak LOL!


Not that kind. What is used is pre-plated (including sides like mashed potato) prepared things vacuum packed, so that they can just be unpacked, heated in convection oven and served.


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## tonys96 (Jul 21, 2016)

Too much talk about the Crescent not having a diner in this thread for me. We are going to be on the Crescent in late August.....any odds on us having a full diner?


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## jis (Jul 21, 2016)

As long as no more Heritage Diners are sidelined while no CAF Diners have entered service, you should be fine.


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## KnightRail (Jul 21, 2016)

taikodrum said:


> This is the new menu, right?
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/667/945/Lake-Shore-Limited-Dining-Car-Menu-0720.pdf


Correct


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## neroden (Jul 22, 2016)

taikodrum said:


> This is the new menu, right?
> 
> https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/667/945/Lake-Shore-Limited-Dining-Car-Menu-0720.pdf


No ingredients list. I'm a bit worried by the lack of scrambled eggs, given the presence of omelet. Are they still using actual eggs, or are they using adulterated egg mix (contaminated with milk, for example, which my girlfriend is allergic to?) I'll have to ask, I guess...

And I still can't eat anything for lunch or dinner, due to the lack of ingredients list. Geez, they could have introduced the packaged meals on the Silver Star at least?


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## PVD (Jul 22, 2016)

Funny you should mention that......a news story this morning was that Dunkin Donuts was working to improve its breakfast sandwiches by removing some of the extra ingredients in the eggs, and making them more like real eggs. There are some compelling reasons to use egg mix rather than whole eggs, the availability of pasteurized product greatly enhances food safety, and storage is certainly easier. But that should not be an excuse to use adulterated product, go for the good stuff!


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## striker64 (Jul 22, 2016)

tonys96 said:


> Too much talk about the Crescent not having a diner in this thread for me. We are going to be on the Crescent in late August.....any odds on us having a full diner?


The last time we rode the Crescent (February), it had a totally different diner than when we last rode, which was January 2014. It looked newer and much nicer. I was kinda thinking the Crescent had maybe already gotten a new diner? But I guess that's not the case.


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## jis (Jul 22, 2016)

The Viewliner I Diner occasionally runs on the Crescent. You might have seen that.


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## tricia (Jul 22, 2016)

PVD said:


> Funny you should mention that......a news story this morning was that Dunkin Donuts was working to improve its breakfast sandwiches by removing some of the extra ingredients in the eggs, and making them more like real eggs. There are some compelling reasons to use egg mix rather than whole eggs, the availability of pasteurized product greatly enhances food safety, and storage is certainly easier. But that should not be an excuse to use adulterated product, go for the good stuff!


"Greatly enhances food safety" only if whatever mystery additives they're using are actually much safer than the eggs themselves. If your eggs come from humanely raised chickens rather than a filthy egg factory, they're pretty safe as they are.

(Full disclosure: I keep hens and sell some of the very best eggs in Asheville at farm market. They're expensive compared to factory-farm eggs, but a bargain as high-quality, local, humanely raised protein goes.)


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## GaSteve (Jul 22, 2016)

jis said:


> The Viewliner I Diner occasionally runs on the Crescent. You might have seen that.


The 8400 was on the Crescent Wed/Thur 7/20&21. I rode those trains as a Trails and Rails volunteer. It seems to be in the regular equipment rotation for that train the past couple of weeks.

My impressions (remember this is the prototype car and the production version may be a little different):

Plus


Much more spacious, mainly due to the larger cross-section of the car, especially the top.
The kitchen is much larger looking due to the increase height. I spoke to the chef and he said he loves the car.
The ride is noticeably much smoother.
Minus


Same seating and tables as a heritage diner
The air conditioning vents are along the bottom of the windows, which creates a draft for whoever is seated at the window side. The crew had actually put duct tape on some of the vents to cut down on the draft at those seats.
The menu, of course, is the same, but that's really what should be expected. The food prep was essentially the same also.


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## PVD (Jul 22, 2016)

As I said, go for the good stuff, not the adulterated product. Bacterial contamination can be introduced in the storage, handling, and food prep process that unfortunately can defeat the higher quality product standard. We are talking about a commissary provided commodity, not a direct farm to market high end item like I might choose to buy for myself.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jul 22, 2016)

GaSteve said:


> Minus
> 
> 
> The air conditioning vents are along the bottom of the windows, which creates a draft for whoever is seated at the window side. The crew had actually put duct tape on some of the vents to cut down on the draft at those seats.


Complete agree with the air conditioning vent issue. Darn cold seated next to the window.


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## Enoch Emery (Jul 22, 2016)

I'm on #49 tonight. Here is the menu.


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## mycalpal (Jan 28, 2017)

Any update on the diner situation on the Lake Shore Limited? I am getting my tickets for the summer and wanted to know if 1) if the track work at Albany is finished and the Boston Sleeper is back in service with the pre-construction consist of the Lake Shore? and 2) Any update on the Lake Shore Limited diners? Will they have real diners again come summer or do I have to wait until 2018 or later? Any updates are appreciated. Thank you!


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## jis (Jan 28, 2017)

Boston Sleeper is back in service as well as Boston Business Class. No news on Diner yet.


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## PVD (Jan 28, 2017)

Went through a few weeks ago on the way to/from Syracuse. Still working on the platform extension, bur the track work looked good. Lots of progress towards SDY on the second track, that will be a big help when it opens......


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