# Three dead after passenger train derails near Stonehaven



## caravanman (Aug 12, 2020)

Sad news from Scotland...

Fatalities in Scotland...


----------



## jis (Aug 12, 2020)

caravanman said:


> Sad news from Scotland...
> 
> Fatalities in Scotland...


Was this one of the shortened HST sets? If so, the cars would be refurbished Mk 3s, right?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 12, 2020)

Wow the footage shows quite a mess. Going to be interesting to read the report on what happened. No clear sign of what and were it started. One railcar down the hillside but two railcars on top of another. One going to be a 2nd power car, but what the heck happen to get those cars into those positions. Lots of speed and force needed of course, but still...


----------



## caravanman (Aug 13, 2020)

jis said:


> Was this one of the shortened HST sets? If so, the cars would be refurbished Mk 3s, right?


That is my impression from the pictures.
My initial impression is that the rear power unit kept pushing for a few seconds after the derailment. Said to be using the opposite running line due to earlier landslide. Hope there were no catch points.


----------



## jiml (Aug 13, 2020)

caravanman said:


> That is my impression from the pictures.
> My initial impression is that the rear power unit kept pushing for a few seconds after the derailment. Said to be using the opposite running line due to earlier landslide. Hope there were no catch points.


That would certainly explain the pics I saw of the "jackknifed" coaches.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 13, 2020)

One report I read today mentioned a member of the train crew leaving the train to warn any oncoming traffic of the danger. This was one duty that was drilled into us when I worked at British Rail. Pleased to see that is still upheld. We placed 3 "detonators" on the running rail, which gave off a loud bang if an oncoming train ran over them, they could be heard in the driving cab and meant danger, emergency stop. 
I guess the sheer momentum of a heavy engine unit at the rear could cause jack knifing too, even if not under power.


----------



## Bob Dylan (Aug 13, 2020)

caravanman said:


> One report I read today mentioned a member of the train crew leaving the train to warn any oncoming traffic of the danger. This was one duty that was drilled into us when I worked at British Rail. Pleased to see that is still upheld. We placed 3 "detonators" on the running rail, which gave off a loud bang if an oncoming train ran over them, they could be heard in the driving cab and meant danger, emergency stop.
> I guess the sheer momentum of a heavy engine unit at the rear could cause jack knifing too, even if not under power.


We called them " Torpedos" over here. Also put "Fuseees " next to the Rails to warn approaching Trains of danger ahead.


----------



## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2020)

caravanman said:


> Sad news from Scotland...
> 
> Fatalities in Scotland...


So sad to see this accident. I have long been a fan of British trains... regardless of all the controversies over the years. When I was younger I took the night train to Aberdeen which means I had traveled over this route.

Much has been said about maintenance of British trains and the rails they ride upon. But my feeling is that the beauty of the British Isles, the historic bridges and scenery along the way, and the officially designated heritage railways... make entire system a world heritage site.

It's amazing that most sections of the entire rail system are still in use!









Heritage railways and trains keep Britain's golden age of steam alive


Steam trains are expensive to operate but heritage railways are seeing a revival following the refurbishment of the Flying Scotsman




www.theguardian.com


----------



## caravanman (Aug 13, 2020)

Certainly the UK rail system is more widespread than Amtrak's, sadly, as with most countries, we have lost a lot of the network since Dr. Beeching pruned it back.


----------



## jis (Aug 13, 2020)

I suppose a few line have been rebuilt after the Beeching cuts settled down too, right?


----------



## Devil's Advocate (Aug 13, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Much has been said about maintenance of British trains and the rails they ride upon. But my feeling is that the beauty of the British Isles, the historic bridges and scenery along the way, and the officially designated heritage railways... make entire system a world heritage site.


This sounds crazy at first but once a mainline pulls up rail it's generally gone forever. I think a case could be made for protecting mainline routes indefinitely as a matter of national interest. Unfortunately the UK has lost something like 20% of their GDP and the future doesn't look that great.


----------



## flitcraft (Aug 13, 2020)

We loved British Rail--my husband is a UK national--and patronized them often over the years on our vacations back to Old Blighty. Since the Thatcher sell-off of British Rail, things have definitely taken a turn for the worse, but still, the overall system is leagues beyond Amtrak.


----------



## 20th Century Rider (Aug 13, 2020)

caravanman said:


> Certainly the UK rail system is more widespread than Amtrak's, sadly, as with most countries, we have lost a lot of the network since Dr. Beeching pruned it back.
> 
> View attachment 18431


Sad to see any kind of a cutback in such a beautiful and historic country... and the British trains are an important part of that history... I'm sure you know much more than I... but in the 60's got a Britrail Pass and was in 'Train Heaven!'


----------



## caravanman (Aug 13, 2020)

jis said:


> I suppose a few line have been rebuilt after the Beeching cuts settled down too, right?


Existing lines have been upgraded and modernised to some extent, but I am not aware of any "missing" lines being reinstated. I may be mistaken, I am afraid that I travelled much more on Amtrak or Indian trains in the last 20 years than the UK ones! 
Talking of lost railways, my current apartment is built exactly on the site of a former train station, Sherwood, on the Nottingham Suburban Railway. The station closed long before Beeching in 1916, and the line closed altogether in 1954. This tower block that I live in was built in 1966. An interesting item is that the line was built originally to connect to a local brickworks, and I am told that most of the bricks to build St. Pancras station in London were made here. Despite the rail connection, I did not know anything about this before I moved in, honest! 



Wiki page for N.S.R.


----------



## jis (Aug 13, 2020)

I am aware of at least one line from Edinburgh to Tweedbank, part of the old abandoned Waverley Line on which service has been restored. There may be others here and there. I did ride the restored service couple of years back when I was in Edinburgh.


----------



## John Bredin (Aug 13, 2020)

Good ol' Wikipedia has a page listing Beeching Cuts service reopenings.


----------



## jis (Aug 13, 2020)

John Bredin said:


> Good ol' Wikipedia has a page listing Beeching Cuts service reopenings.


Great find!

Coming to think of it, I have been to Birmingham Snow Hill recently from one of the London stations, don't quite remember which, but most likely Marylebone.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 14, 2020)

I am pleased to see that I was mistaken in respect of the re-opening of many train stations, etc.
I believe that many of the lines that have new stations were not "removed", but had remained in place as freight lines, so it was relatively easy to re-introduce the passenger side of things? 
Much former railway land was sold off to developers, so limited scope to reinstate former lines in most areas.


----------



## Alice (Aug 14, 2020)

From Caravanman's link in post #1:

"Network Rail has reviewed CCTV footage from the stations at which the service stopped and it's believed there were nine people, including crew, on the train. "​​Three dead out of nine is sobering.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 14, 2020)

One can only find a grain of solace from the low number of passengers aboard. Given the aftermath shown, the outcome from a packed train of passengers does not bear thinking about.


----------



## jis (Aug 14, 2020)

Well, and of course the Southeast Suburban Service from London has been transformed with the addition of the Javelin service on HS-1.

The other big one is the transformation brought about by Thameslink, which continues to be further enhanced.


----------



## Qapla (Aug 14, 2020)

Any new information about the derailment this thread is based on?


----------



## WWW (Aug 14, 2020)

On an off hand thought -
Would it be possible if enough water was flooding the tracks for the train and its cars to hydroplane off the rails ?
Thus flipping some of the cars into the ditch next to the tracks.
Hydroplaning of automobiles on rain swollen roadways happens frequently - even heavy trucks are not immune -
so what about the possibility of this happening to train cars ?


----------



## caravanman (Aug 15, 2020)

The transport minister has requested a quick report from the rail operators to be available by the end of August. 
It seems that the area may not have had good mobile phone coverage, an off duty rail worker travelling as a passenger apparently walked a mile to the signal box to rail the alarm...


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 15, 2020)

No hydroplaning is not a issue with railcars.

Hat off to the off duty railway worker who walk to the signal box.


----------



## Trogdor (Aug 15, 2020)

Friends-261 said:


> On an off hand thought -
> Would it be possible if enough water was flooding the tracks for the train and its cars to hydroplane off the rails ?
> Thus flipping some of the cars into the ditch next to the tracks.
> Hydroplaning of automobiles on rain swollen roadways happens frequently - even heavy trucks are not immune -
> so what about the possibility of this happening to train cars ?



Wheel flanges and the sheer weight of railcars would make hydroplaning essentially impossible.


----------



## joelkfla (Aug 15, 2020)

There was also a report of ground movement. Perhaps the mud had covered a rail, or a rail had shifted.


----------



## west point (Aug 15, 2020)

From various reports it may be that Network Rail had not seen "landslips" ( landslides ) before so had not scheduled rail patrols. All of UK has received 30 - 100 % more rain this year than averages. Anyone know if there are any slide detector fences in the UK ?.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 15, 2020)

A slide detector is a custom made item, and not a off the shelf item. It simple old technology however. Break the wire, signals drop to red. Determined the high risk areas install a fence run a tight electrical wire thur the fence area. So when the landslide occurs it will push out the fence causing the wire to break. No continuity then signals drop to red. Of course we can use laser and other tools from our modern society. But the old version work quite well. Not perfect but still work well.

Of course with certain Positive Train Control (PTC) you will need a communication device to relay the lost of continuity in the wire to the PTC system.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 21, 2020)

The latest news from the investigation today, 21 August:

Train was running at 72 MPH at time of derailment...: Explanation of crash site wreckage positions...


----------



## Just-Thinking-51 (Aug 21, 2020)

Yes it was a higher speed derailment (72mph). The amount of force experienced to have those railcars land in those positions would be quite high.

Still the stacking of the railcars and the landing position of the lead power car and third coach vs the landing of the coach one and two is intriguing. Nosed dive of the power car with the next couple of coaches flying upward?

The whole report is going to be a interesting read.


----------



## jis (Aug 21, 2020)

Are these refurbished HSTs still using chain link couplers? Lack of tightlock couplers would probably explain the separation


----------



## Seaboard92 (Aug 21, 2020)

I've never understood why the Europeans have never moved past the chain link couplers. To me it just makes no sense, maybe that's because I grew up with AAR Couplers and have an implicit bias. But it seams to me AAR couplers are safer for the crews, and are much faster to operate. Even Russia has their own version of the AAR Coupler with the SA3. So it baffles me that Europe stubbornly clings to that outdated system.


----------



## jis (Aug 21, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> I've never understood why the Europeans have never moved past the chain link couplers. To me it just makes no sense, maybe that's because I grew up with AAR Couplers and have an implicit bias. But it seams to me AAR couplers are safer for the crews, and are much faster to operate. Even Russia has their own version of the AAR Coupler with the SA3. So it baffles me that Europe stubbornly clings to that outdated system.


Most of the new rolling stock in Europe are D/EMUs which have fixed drawbar within an unti and Scharfenberg coupler to connect two units together. Some of the new trailer cars are equipped with tightlock couplers specially when they are part of fixed units. These HSTs are just living on borrowed time being refurbished to go another round. At least they replaced the Slam Doors with centrally operated automatic doors.

In India all new freight and passenger stock is AAR like center coupler and the passenger ones are tightlock too. All power untis are equipped with transition couplers that can do both AAR tightlock and chain link. There have been one or two 80mph derailments in India of 24 car long trains of LHB Coaches with remarkably little damage to passengers and the cars themselves with almost no deformation of any of the car bodies involved, and the train pretty much stayed in line, linked together.


----------



## caravanman (Aug 22, 2020)

To be honest, I am not sure what type of couplings are in use today! When I worked for B.R. one of my trainee driver jobs was to couple the loco to the coaches of passenger trains. We used an adjustable screw link, as shown on the front of this type 47 Brush loco, a type I drove many times.




I was under the impression that newer trains used a "buckeye" coupler, said to be more sturdy?

I am pleased to hear that Indian trains are often safe in a derailment, I hope to ride some again, one day...


----------



## greatwestern (Aug 22, 2020)

I am certainly no expert, but the only time I have seen screw link couplers on UK mainline trains in many years has been on "specials" using heritage stock.

I believe that HST sets use "buckeye" type couplings (internet search seemed to confirm).

jis commented that HSTs are just living on borrowed time, but from a passenger (my) point of view when I travel on the Uk's Crosscountry services (the far south and southwest through to Scotland), I always try to book on one of their HST programmed services (they only have 5 sets I believe) - so much more comfortable and spacious than their Voyager sets.


----------



## jis (Aug 23, 2020)

greatwestern said:


> I am certainly no expert, but the only time I have seen screw link couplers on UK mainline trains in many years has been on "specials" using heritage stock.
> 
> I believe that HST sets use "buckeye" type couplings (internet search seemed to confirm).
> 
> jis commented that HSTs are just living on borrowed time, but from a passenger (my) point of view when I travel on the Uk's Crosscountry services (the far south and southwest through to Scotland), I always try to book on one of their HST programmed services (they only have 5 sets I believe) - so much more comfortable and spacious than their Voyager sets.


Oh don't get me wrong. I love the HSTs, and I also love the way they are being refurbished, but that does not change the fact that they are on borrowed time, and are around mainly because of extreme delays and program management failures to acquire new rolling stock in a timely manner (except perhaps the ScotRail deployment of them, which this was one of). An even more interesting case of similar are the Pacers, which are, the last I heard, still to be found here and there. Also remember how long it took to get those Slam Door South of London third rail suburban stock to finally disappear?


----------

