# Talgo bids to sell WI trainsets to MI



## CHamilton (Apr 5, 2014)

There wasn't a whole lot of information from the Northwest NARP meeting today that AUers haven't already heard. But one tidbit: Talgo has responded to the Michigan RFP with a proposal to sell them the Wisconsin trainsets for use on the Wolverine service. Apparently Talgo would like to expand their North American presence beyond the Northwest.


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## SarahZ (Apr 5, 2014)

Are those the red/white cars or the brown/green cars?

Not that it matters; I'm just curious.

Also, these are the ones that look like something out of _Cars_, right?


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## ACS-64 (Apr 5, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> Are those the red/white cars or the brown/green cars?
> 
> Not that it matters; I'm just curious.
> 
> Also, these are the ones that look like something out of _Cars_, right?


Red and White


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## Eric S (Apr 5, 2014)

What is the Michigan RFP?


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## SarahZ (Apr 5, 2014)

RFP = "request for proposal"

Basically, Michigan said, "Hey, Talgo. How much you want for those train sets, eh?"

And then Talgo said, "You can have these Wisconsin train sets for X."


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## jerichowhiskey (Apr 5, 2014)

I am going to guess he wants the details of the RFP of which I liked to know what Michigan is seeking as well.


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## Eric S (Apr 5, 2014)

Yes, sorry, I was wondering what the content of the Michigan RFP was, not the definition of RFP. Particularly given that they have new bilevel equipment (the Midwest bilevels along with IL and MO) or order. It was my understanding that all of the Michigan trains (at least the five currently operated) would be using bilevel equipment in a few years.


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## SarahZ (Apr 5, 2014)

Eric S said:


> Yes, sorry, I was wondering what proposal Michigan is seeking requests for. Particularly given that they have new bilevel equipment (the Midwest bilevels along with IL and MO) or order. It was my understanding that all of the Michigan trains (at least the five currently operated) would be using bilevel equipment in a few years.


Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry.  I thought you were asking what the Michigan RFP was, as in, "Are they a group of railfans?" Like RFP stood for the group name or something.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 5, 2014)

Sadly for Talgo, it does not make sense for anyone outside of the PNW to take those two sets. There is nowhere to maintain them, and setting up a maintenance facility for two sets would be costly. The beauty of the standardized bilevels is that the cars will be common to multiple states. Parts inventory and maintenance will benefit from an economy of scale that two orphan Talgo sets cannot match.


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## CHamilton (Apr 5, 2014)

We've talked about this before, and I agree that outside of the Northwest, about the only place it would make sense to use the Talgos would be in California. That would be a reasonable distance from the maintenance base. But California doesn't need two trainsets that don't match anything else they have.

AORTA (the Oregon advocacy group) and AAWA (the Washington group) are both pushing for expanded services on the east sides of their respective states. AAWA wants SEA-SPK via Stampede Pass, and AORTA wants service along the old Pioneer route, or possibly a connection to Boise. Both of these projects would be good uses for the Talgos, but both face significant obstacles: money, stations, the host railroads...

Edit: Of course, if Talgo went to the trouble of producing a bid, they obviously think they have a reasonable solution to the maintenance issue. I guess they could use the Milwaukee factory, since they already have it, or perhaps they've found a facility in Michigan they think they could develop.


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## SarahZ (Apr 5, 2014)

Would it be possible to build a Talgo maintenance facility in the Midwest? Lord knows Detroit has its share of displaced auto workers who would be more than qualified to work on trains once they were trained in the various intricacies.

I realize this will cost money; the question is feasibility. Would Talgo be willing to kick in the cost? Perhaps Michigan might consider it as well. Our governor, while anti-union, is very much into job creation.


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## Eric S (Apr 5, 2014)

Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.

Maybe I can dig around online and see if there are estimates of what the WI facility was going to cost.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 5, 2014)

I'm surprised at this, since Michigan is part of the midwest order for the bi-level cars. I imagine a maintenance base could be built anywhere along the Wolverine route, although Pontiac would make the most sense. Or they could be used for additional service Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago, or Grand Rapids-BC-KAL-CHI, Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, or Chi or Detroit. to Traverse City! Interesting.


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## PRR 60 (Apr 5, 2014)

Eric S said:


> Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.
> 
> Maybe I can dig around online and see if there are estimates of what the WI facility was going to cost.


The cost to establish a maintenance base was $55 to $63 million. That's a pretty big pill to swallow to care for two train sets.


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## Eric S (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks fo



PRR 60 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.
> ...


Thanks for finding that. And, yes, quite a price for two train sets, when presumably an add-on to the bilevel order would not require anywhere near that level of outlay for additional or expanded maintenance facilties.


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## MattW (Apr 5, 2014)

Actually, there's two other places I can think of where there would be an advantage from their tilt.

The first is out of Atlanta to Birmingham and Chattanooga. As Bill Haithcoat, George Harris and I think Xyzzy will tell you, those routes are as curvy as all else. Of course, there are so many other issues with regional services to those two cities that simply having two tilting trainsets doesn't solve.

The second I might could see is the Pennsylvanian. I'm not as familiar with this route...and as I was typing this I was suddenly reminded about the high platform issue, the Talgos are low (actually medium?) platform cars and a recent post on another forum indicated that Talgo didn't have interest in high level platform vehicles so never mind.


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## rickycourtney (Apr 6, 2014)

It seems really weird to me that Michigan has an RFP for railcars considering they were a member of the Midwest coalition of states (along with Illinois and Missouri) that recently ordered 88 new third generation bi-level intercity cars. Maybe this RFP is just a formality as the state looks to buy more bi-level cars.

I've enjoyed riding the Talgo's up here in the Pacific Northwest... but they're poor fit for most places.

Asking a state to spending 5.8 million a year on maintenance (plus having to donate the space for a facility) is okay when there's no other passenger rail maintenance facilities nearby. But when Amtrak's Chicago maintenance facility is at one end of your line (like is the case for the Hiawatha, the Blue Water, the Pere Marquette and the Wolverine) it really doesn't make since to set up another maintenance facility for just two trainsets.


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## PerRock (Apr 6, 2014)

Can anyone find the RFP? I searched the MDOT website and cannot find anything about it. While I think it would be great to get the Talgos for MI, It doesn't really make sense.

Also, aren't the those train sets basically stuck there until after the legal proceedings between Talgo & WI are finished?

peter


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## rrdude (Apr 6, 2014)

MikefromCrete said:


> I'm surprised at this, since Michigan is part of the midwest order for the bi-level cars. I imagine a maintenance base could be built anywhere along the Wolverine route, although Pontiac would make the most sense. Or they could be used for additional service Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago, or Grand Rapids-BC-KAL-CHI, Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, or Chi or Detroit. to Traverse City! Interesting.


How on earth would you GET to Traverse City by rail, on a passenger train?


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## greatcats (Apr 6, 2014)

Here's a brilliant idea! That former railroad ferry from Michigan to Wisconsin still had tracks on its car deck when I it in the 90s. Just shove those Talgos on there and send them to Milwaukee! ( Does anyone appreciate my sophisticated humor?)


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 6, 2014)

PerRock said:


> Can anyone find the RFP? I searched the MDOT website and cannot find anything about it. While I think it would be great to get the Talgos for MI, It doesn't really make sense.
> 
> Also, aren't the those train sets basically stuck there until after the legal proceedings between Talgo & WI are finished?
> 
> peter


You're right. I would think those train sets aren't going anyway until the lawsuits are settled.


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## MikefromCrete (Apr 6, 2014)

rrdude said:


> MikefromCrete said:
> 
> 
> > I'm surprised at this, since Michigan is part of the midwest order for the bi-level cars. I imagine a maintenance base could be built anywhere along the Wolverine route, although Pontiac would make the most sense. Or they could be used for additional service Battle Creek-Kalamazoo-Chicago, or Grand Rapids-BC-KAL-CHI, Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, or Chi or Detroit. to Traverse City! Interesting.
> ...


There are tracks still in place. They would need an awful lot of work to support a passenger train service, however. The Traverse City idea got a lot of support in another topic area on this board.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 6, 2014)

It's a strange request considering the bilevel order. As much as I line Talgos, I don't see this happening.


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## jis (Apr 6, 2014)

Nor do I see Talgos ever used for the Pennsylvanian. Other high platform active tilting sets, possible, but low floor Talgos very very unlikely.

And any state financed service in Georgia, quite unlikely, Talgo or otherwise.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## afigg (Apr 6, 2014)

MattW said:


> Actually, there's two other places I can think of where there would be an advantage from their tilt.
> 
> The first is out of Atlanta to Birmingham and Chattanooga. As Bill Haithcoat, George Harris and I think Xyzzy will tell you, those routes are as curvy as all else. Of course, there are so many other issues with regional services to those two cities that simply having two tilting trainsets doesn't solve.
> 
> The second I might could see is the Pennsylvanian. I'm not as familiar with this route...and as I was typing this I was suddenly reminded about the high platform issue, the Talgos are low (actually medium?) platform cars and a recent post on another forum indicated that Talgo didn't have interest in high level platform vehicles so never mind.


The two Talgo trainsets will never be used on Eastern corridor routes because they are not compatible with high level platforms (HLP). The number of stations in the east with HLPs is going to increase, not just on the NEC, but on the Empire corridor, NHV-SPG corridor and in the south at Raleigh, Tampa, Jacksonville, Savannah. Atlanta too for that matter if the development deal for the proposed new station in Atlanta can be done.
The two Wisconsin Talgos at this point are orphaned trainsets. The assembly plant that built them has shut down, the economics of building a maintenance facility for only 2 trainsets is poor, the Midwestern states are getting 88 corridor bi-level cars with greater capacity, and the contract with Nippon-Sharyo has options for ordering up to 300 more bi-level cars at a good price.

I think Talgo is pretty much shut out of the US intercity passenger rail market except in the Northwest. Well, unless they can build HSR trainsets that meet the Buy American requirements and are compatible with HLPs. It is possible, not likely, but possible that the 2 Talgo trainsets will never see revenue service and will gather dust in storage for many years before being scrapped.


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## NE933 (Apr 6, 2014)

Why not offer them to the Northwest, so that they an have two more trainsets at a place that already has a maintenance base, and can use them for future expansion on their curvy routes?


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> or perhaps they've found a facility in Michigan they think they could develop.


There are certainly enough disused factories in Michigan. Multiple *railroad maintenance shops*, even.


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## neroden (Apr 6, 2014)

rrdude said:


> How on earth would you GET to Traverse City by rail, on a passenger train?


The intact tracks run Traverse City - Cadillac - Clare - Mt. Pleasant - Alma - Owosso - Durand. Then Holly-Pontiac-Detroit or Howell-Ann Arbor.
There were formerly two (count them, two) routes from Grand Rapids to Traverse City, but I think the ROW is long gone on both of them. Probably built on.


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## battalion51 (Apr 6, 2014)

NE933 said:


> Why not offer them to the Northwest, so that they an have two more trainsets at a place that already has a maintenance base, and can use them for future expansion on their curvy routes?


I don't doubt the offer has been extended, the question is whether they're interested. With seven sets presently online and five spare cars there's the question of whether the corridor can handle additional frequencies to justify the cost. And that's always a complicated question when you get the host railroads and politicians involved. This is the logical solution, but someone's got to pay.

Another (albeit unlikely) possibility is the folks at FEC/All Aboard Florida.


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## andersone (Apr 6, 2014)

RFP ? isn't that the stop 40 miles east of Milwaukee?


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## afigg (Apr 6, 2014)

battalion51 said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> > Why not offer them to the Northwest, so that they an have two more trainsets at a place that already has a maintenance base, and can use them for future expansion on their curvy routes?
> ...


The Cascades route can't additional daily frequencies until at least 2017. IIRC, Washington State DOT has plans to acquire an additional Talgo train set in the future, but I don't recall the time frame. Even if WSDOT were to purchase the Wisconsin Talgos in a few years, they might have to pay for them with only state money. I am not clear on how close the 4 Talgos that were assembled in WI come to meeting the Federal Buy American requirements. If the 2 trainsets do not, then WSDOT would have to get a waiver to purchase them if any federal funding is used to pay for them.
All Aboard Florida will be building stations with 800' to 1000' long high level platforms, so they will not be interested in the Talgos. Besides AAF will need more than 2 trainsets.


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## pere_michel (Apr 7, 2014)

The Talgos now in service on the Cascades. Weren't they bought with federal stimulus money? Would they have met buy America requirements or was the stimulus money different?

Either way, I agree that nothing will happen until the legal system tells us who owns these train sets. Currently there are two different claims working their way through the system and it could be a very long time until both are completed. Talgo has a claim in front of the State Claims Board and another in Dane County Circuit Court. The circuit court lawsuit is for possession of the train sets, if my memory is correct, and the parties were supposed to have motion hearing on March 31. I have no idea if the hearing actually took place. The State Claims Board claim is then for the rest of the contract, some $65 million dollars.


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## Eric S (Apr 7, 2014)

The 2 Talgo trainsets purchased by OR do meet federal Buy America requirements, as they were purchased using federal funds. The 2 sets "purchased" by WI do not meet the requirements, as they were purchased using state funds. At a WisARP meeting a couple of years ago, a Talgo spokesperson said the 2 WI sets were "very close" to meeting Buy America requirements, but as they were not required to meet them and those were the first two trainsets produced, with the OR sets following, no attempt was made to completely meet the requirements. The spokesperson did not state specifically what was different, nor what would likely be required to alter them to comply.


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## cirdan (Apr 7, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> The cost to establish a maintenance base was $55 to $63 million. That's a pretty big pill to swallow to care for two train sets.


But I guess that's the cost of building from scratch.

How difficult would it be to maintain a talgo in an extisting maintenance facility?


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## jis (Apr 7, 2014)

Is there any maintenance facility with such spare capacity out there in Chicago or Michigan? If you have to covnert a disused factory or something like that, it is as good as building a facility from scratch.


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## PerRock (Apr 7, 2014)

Here are the MDOT RFPs & such. I haven't read it but am told Talgo is mentioned in QA2.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_posted_449105_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_QA1_451373_7.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_QA2_451374_7.pdf
http://www.mich.gov/documents/mdot/MDOT_RFP_SS_REQ1461_QA3_451662_7.pdf
http://www.michiganbids.net/bid-opportunities/2014/03/15/5496357-Specialty-Services-for-PurchaseLease-of-Intercity-Rail.html

peter


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## SarahZ (Apr 7, 2014)

The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?

If so, are they planning to update those in any way? The Metra seats are comfortable for a trip out to the 'burbs, but I wouldn't want to sit in those seats all the way from Pontiac to Chicago.


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## PerRock (Apr 7, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?
> 
> If so, are they planning to update those in any way? The Metra seats are comfortable for a trip out to the 'burbs, but I wouldn't want to sit in those seats all the way from Pontiac to Chicago.


The BiLevel order is brand new cars similar to the current Amtrak California cars, for use on lines like the Wolveriene, etc. The MiTrain is currently using (I say using...) ex-Metra Galley cars that were, and still is, owned by Great Lakes Central. Having not read thru all the papers I posted, I'm not really sure what they want to use the Talgos for.

peter


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## afigg (Apr 7, 2014)

SarahZ said:


> The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?
> 
> If so, are they planning to update those in any way? The Metra seats are comfortable for a trip out to the 'burbs, but I wouldn't want to sit in those seats all the way from Pontiac to Chicago.


The bi-level cars coming in 2016 and 2017 are the from of the order of 130 corridor bi-levels to be built by Nippon-Sharyo.
What MI DOT is looking for here are existing 110 mph capable rail cars which have restooms, are ADA compliant, Amtrak certified etc to run until 2017? To replace the Horizons? Ok, besides cars with commuter seating, where the heck would they find cars ready to go without a major rebuild? Besides the 2 Talgo trainsets? Which of course, present maintenance support and cost issues?

My initial reaction to what I see so far in the RFP is that MI DOT is very unhappy with the reliability and costs of the Horizons. When the new bi-levels arrive in 2016 and 2017, the states may seek someone else to maintain them rather than the Amtrak Chicago shop.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 7, 2014)

Sarah: METRA style cars are referred to generally as 'Gallery' cars. Bi-Level generally implies a full width floor. That being said, some Chicago gallery cars were equipped for intercity service including a few dining cars. Some of those were conveyed to Amtrak who painted them in Phase I and II (I don't know about three) and were used for Midwest routes on Amtrak prior to the arrival of the Amfleets. One of them ran from... Milwaukee I think to Saint Louis through Chocagp and offered full service dining.


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## SarahZ (Apr 7, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> Sarah: *METRA style cars are referred to generally as 'Gallery' cars. Bi-Level generally implies a full width floor.* That being said, some Chicago gallery cars were equipped for intercity service including a few dining cars. Some of those were conveyed to Amtrak who painted them in Phase I and II (I don't know about three) and were used for Midwest routes on Amtrak prior to the arrival of the Amfleets. One of them ran from... Milwaukee I think to Saint Louis through Chicago and offered full service dining.


Thank you. Now I can use the proper terms.  Also, knowing that "bi-level" has a full width floor answers my original question and makes it rather moot.

Thanks to the others who answered, as well.


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## Ryan (Apr 7, 2014)

PerRock said:


> SarahZ said:
> 
> 
> > The bi-level cars are the ones we're getting from Metra right?
> ...


Reading the first document, the immediate takeaway is that they want to dump the Amtrak-provided equipment and replace it with the equipment they obtain until the bi-level cars are built. The schedule indicates entry into revenue service on 8 Sep 2014 with the lease to expire in 2017.

They want cars that are ready to roll NOW, either built or overhauled within the last 5 years.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 7, 2014)

I bet they also want to drop Chicago Yards. The Horizons were built for California climates. They were never meant for Midwest service.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Apr 7, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Reading the first document, the immediate takeaway is that they want to dump the Amtrak-provided equipment and replace it with the equipment they obtain until the bi-level cars are built. The schedule indicates entry into revenue service on 8 Sep 2014 with the lease to expire in 2017.They want cars that are ready to roll NOW, either built or overhauled within the last 5 years.


Wow go big or go home.

Maybe Sunrail got a train set or two they can spare. MI asking a bit too much. Even if someone can fill this request the amount of funds it will require....


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## Ryan (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm not sure that there is equipment anywhere that would satisfy this.

The MI folks may know this and this may just be a public shot across the bow towards Amtrak to get their stuff together.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 7, 2014)

Interesting opportunity for talgo to demonstrate the reliability of their equipment in extreme conditions.


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## amtrakwolverine (Apr 7, 2014)

What's wrong with the cars Amtrak has that mi can't wait for the bilevels other then freezing up in winter.


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## Eric S (Apr 7, 2014)

My take-away from a quick reading of those documents is that Talgo might be the only entity that could meet the requirements (at least two trainsets, available for service Sep 2014 through Dec 2017), if of course Talgo is able to use those 2 trainsets (i.e., they aren't still tied up because of litigation in WI). However, the need to do maintenance in Pontiac, MI, makes me question whether any entity, Talgo included, could actually meet the requirements.


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## Green Maned Lion (Apr 7, 2014)

I suspect the big problem is less the cars and more Chicago yards.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2014)

Some more on this...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/new-unused-talgo-trains-in-milwaukee-could-find-a-new-home-b99244919z1-255101661.html


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## Ryan (Apr 14, 2014)

The RFP says that 3 trainsets are used today.

Is it possible to run the service with 2?

What happens when a set goes down for maintenance?

Given that the RFP also states that they're looking for a uniform fleet, I'd say the WI Talgos wouldn't be suitable (unless Talgo has another similar set up their sleeve they can ship in).


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## CHamilton (Apr 14, 2014)

RyanS said:


> Given that the RFP also states that they're looking for a uniform fleet, I'd say the WI Talgos wouldn't be suitable (unless Talgo has another similar set up their sleeve they can ship in).


Maybe they want to lease back one of the trainsets they just sold to Oregon. The Northwest actually has more equipment than it needs until new frequencies are added in 2017.


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## afigg (Apr 14, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> RyanS said:
> 
> 
> > Given that the RFP also states that they're looking for a uniform fleet, I'd say the WI Talgos wouldn't be suitable (unless Talgo has another similar set up their sleeve they can ship in).
> ...


I have to dig up the Trains Magazine article from several years ago on the Talgos, but as I recall, the configuration and seating capacity of the WI Talgos was different from the OR Talgos. That would create a seat sales management problem. Anyone recall how many coach and business class seats the WI Talgo consists have? The MI DOT RFP asks for a minimum of 280 coach and 30 BC seats plus 24 non-revenue cafe seats.

MI is looking to lease trainsets for the Wolverine service through the end of 2017. My initial reaction was that the Talgos would not be feasible because of the lack of a maintenance facility. But since the trainsets are only needed for around 3.5 years, I wonder if it is possible to assemble a temporary maintenance facility on unused sidetracks or facility near Pontiac end that can be used for basic day to day maintenance procedures and inspections without heavy lift or repair equipment.


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## CHamilton (Apr 14, 2014)

The WI Talgos as built do not have business class seating, so some modifications would need to be made.


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## jis (Apr 14, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> The WI Talgos as built do not have business class seating, so some modifications would need to be made.


If the way NEC operates is any indication then the only modification needed will be a few "Business Class" decals to stick on a few doors, and voila, you got Business Class!  Should not be too hard to do. (says he with tongue firmly planted in his cheek!)


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## rickycourtney (Apr 14, 2014)

afigg said:


> I have to dig up the Trains Magazine article from several years ago on the Talgos, but as I recall, the configuration and seating capacity of the WI Talgos was different from the OR Talgos. That would create a seat sales management problem. Anyone recall how many coach and business class seats the WI Talgo consists have? The MI DOT RFP asks for a minimum of 280 coach and 30 BC seats plus 24 non-revenue cafe seats.


Actually, the ODOT Talgo trainsets fit that bill much better (but not exactly). They have 242 coach seats, 46 BC seats and a dining car for non-revenue seating. A total of 288 revenue seats over 13 cars.
The Wisconsin Talgos have 397 seats over 14 cars but they have no BC cars and no dining car with non-revenue seating.


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## WICT106 (Apr 14, 2014)

jis said:


> Some more on this...
> 
> http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/new-unused-talgo-trains-in-milwaukee-could-find-a-new-home-b99244919z1-255101661.html


The comments at the article serve to illustrate the degree of ignorance that we in Wisconsin have been dealing with. Go there and read the comments.


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## Lakesteed (Apr 15, 2014)

When will the bids be open? Anybody have any idea? They were due on the 31st of March right?


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## neroden (Apr 15, 2014)

Huh. It's interesting to think about how this might play out. Michigan is only looking for a short-term stopgap until it gets its new bilevels in 2017. (I guess this lets us know the order in which the states are going to get the new bilevels: sounds like Michigan may be last.) Meanwhile, Washington and Oregon will need additional Talgos, but not until *after* 2017.

Perhaps Michigan will buy these two trainsets and run "two Talgos, one conventional" for a few years, and then sell them to Washington.


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## MidwestRich (Apr 15, 2014)

From the RFP and Michigan DOT's answers to bidder questions, it appears that MDOT is seriously considering proposals for lease, purchase, and lease-purchase of cars and full train sets (i.e., the Talgos). A three-year lease of the Talgos that includes some amount of parts and maintenance will likely be among the proposals, as will proposals for leasing of cars from other suppliers. It sounds like there are more than three responding firms to the RFP, so there could be a very interesting bunch of proposals. With an open competition, MDOT seems intent on securing a good deal for the state by limiting its costs and wants to get an agreement firmed up by May. So this could move very quickly.

The backdrop to all of this includes the following:

-- MDOT is fed up with Amtrak's Chicago shop for unreliable equipment and poor turnarounds. Locomotives on the Wolverine died en route at least twice this winter, leaving hundreds of passengers stranded for hours into the wee morning. The state of equipment coming out of Amtrak Chicago is unacceptable to a good paying customer like MDOT.

-- MDOT really dislikes the Horizons and the amount that Amtrak charges for them.

-- MDOT would like to add frequencies to the Pere Marquette, Blue Water, and/or Wolverines soon. Leasing/acquiring equipment will free up some from Amtrak's shallow pool.


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## battalion51 (Apr 15, 2014)

I have to wonder if part of the reliability issue with locomotives on Michigan services is related to ITCS. There's a very small fleet that handle a large portion of the Michigan services. So when one or two engines have issues that are lingering its going to effect only those services. Meanwhile that same one or two engines with lingering issues would likely effect different services and/or have a second motor on the train when that issue popped up if they were in the Intercity pool.


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## neroden (Apr 16, 2014)

Just to quell the locomotive discussion, this RFP is strictly for cars. It doesn't involve a request for new locomotives.

I think this may give us some hints as to how much Amtrak is asking in "capital charges" for the Horizon fleet. I think Michigan is explicitly fishing for a price which Michigan can take back to Amtrak as "competition".

It looks like the minimum bid size is designed specifically to match the Wisconsin Talgos.

The maintenance RFP is actually set up as separate from the equipment purchase RFP and may simply be an accomodation to the known preference of Talgo for doing its own maintenance.


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## afigg (Apr 30, 2014)

Saw this news update on rr.net. The plot thickens. Milwaukee Sentinel-Journal: 2 high-speed train sets built for Wisconsin set to leave Milwaukee. Excerpts:



> In what appears to be the final chapter of an ill-fated venture in Milwaukee, Spanish train-maker Talgo is vacating its factory on the north side of Milwaukee, and its two unused high-speed train sets may soon take to the tracks.
> 
> The Redevelopment Authority of the City of Milwaukee has received notice that Talgo will end its month-to-month lease agreement in the Century City development at N. 27th and W. Townsend streets.


Talgo is paying $29K a month to store the 2 trainsets and rent the building? No wonder they want to get the trainsets out of there.



> The city will also lose the $29,000 a month Talgo paid for renting half of the 300,000 square-foot building.
> 
> Talgo officials did not immediately return requests for comment about where the trains are going and why they are ending the lease.
> 
> ...


The J-S newspaper keeps writing that MI DOT is interested in "buying" the trainsets. The reporter seems to be stuck on this even when the RFP is quite clear that MIDOT is only seeking to lease rolling stock through the end of 2017 until the new bi-levels are all delivered. There is a difference.


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## WICT106 (Apr 30, 2014)

Go to the article and read through the comments. They will provide some illustration of just what pro-rail wisconsinites have been dealing with the past few years. A lot of misinformation.


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## Steve4031 (Apr 30, 2014)

As far as no bc, the Amtrak website handles thus change everyone Superliners are substituted during the winter. Snack carts could be used in a pinch. It is a reach to not have food service for a trip of this duration though.


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## rickycourtney (May 1, 2014)

afigg said:


> The J-S newspaper keeps writing that MI DOT is interested in "buying" the trainsets. The reporter seems to be stuck on this even when the RFP is quite clear that MIDOT is only seeking to lease rolling stock through the end of 2017 until the new bi-levels are all delivered. There is a difference.


There's a HUGE difference. Talgo will still need to look for a buyer for these 2 trainsets in 2017...


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## afigg (May 5, 2014)

According to this news report, only 1 company submitted a bid to MIDOT's RFP. Yes, Talgo. Not everyone is happy about that, but the former state senator who is publicly protesting appears to not understand the RFP or the Talgos.

Tim Skubick: Lone bid on high-speed train service raises eyebrows

Excerpt:



> This deal is not a good deal, he explains as he has asked the governor to restart the whole process so other companies can bid - not just Talgo, which is in line to get the job.
> 
> He complains Talgo has equipment that cannot withstand Michigans grueling winters. He contends their trains would require the rejiggering of the railroad stations that handle Amtrak trains. And another $30 million or so, not in the contract, would be needed to repair the trains.


Eh? The 2 Talgo trainsets were built for the Wisconsin route. Are the winters that much worse for Chicago to Pontiac than for Chicago to Milwaukee-Madison? What "rejiggering" of the railroad stations? If it is platform length, well, the Talgos will be used for only 3+ years, so I seriously doubt platform lengths are going to be extended just for the Talgos. If the trains have to double stop, then they will if MIDOT wants the new trainsets badly enough.
What we don't know is how much it will cost to set up a temporary or interim maintenance facility.


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## Eric S (May 5, 2014)

Just a guess, but perhaps the $30 million is for some sort of maintenance facility.

As far as weather, Milwaukee would be a little bit colder on average than Detroit, but snowfall would be higher through the northwest Indiana/southwest Michigan snowbelt area. Can't imagine weather is really a factor here. Maybe the politician just heard that Talgos are Spanish trains, rather than built for service between CHI-MKE-MSN.


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## afigg (May 5, 2014)

Eric S said:


> Just a guess, but perhaps the $30 million is for some sort of maintenance facility.
> 
> As far as weather, Milwaukee would be a little bit colder on average than Detroit, but snowfall would be higher through the northwest Indiana/southwest Michigan snowbelt area. Can't imagine weather is really a factor here. Maybe the politician just heard that Talgos are Spanish trains, rather than built for service between CHI-MKE-MSN.


The $30 million is what the former state senator Schwarz claims the maintenance facility will cost. We don't know what Talgo says the cost will be in the bid submitted to MIDOT. This is not a long term equipment lease, so investing a lot of money in a maintenance facility in Michigan does not make economic sense. On the other hand, maybe there is a political play going on here and we don't know the whole story yet.


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## Anderson (May 6, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> > The J-S newspaper keeps writing that MI DOT is interested in "buying" the trainsets. The reporter seems to be stuck on this even when the RFP is quite clear that MIDOT is only seeking to lease rolling stock through the end of 2017 until the new bi-levels are all delivered. There is a difference.
> ...


By 2017, it is possible that the situation in the Northwest will be such that WA and OR can arrange a purchase. The other possibility is, of course, that there will be an equipment reshuffle in the Midwest (and/or CA) and that MI might keep using the Talgos for a while.


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## neroden (May 6, 2014)

> What "rejiggering" of the railroad stations? If it is platform length,


I'm guessing it's platform height. Since the Talgos will only be used for two years -- and probably not *exclusively* -- I think the FRA will probably be lenient.


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## rickycourtney (May 6, 2014)

Anderson said:


> By 2017, it is possible that the situation in the Northwest will be such that WA and OR can arrange a purchase.


The only reason for WSDOT or ODOT to purchase these 2 trainsets would be to replace the 2 Amtrak owned Series VI trainsets. That would only be necessary if WSDOT/ODOT dump Amtrak as the operator of the Cascades in favor of say BNSF.



Anderson said:


> The other possibility is, of course, that there will be an equipment reshuffle in the Midwest (and/or CA) and that MI might keep using the Talgos for a while.


In my opinion (having been on both the Talgo Series 8 trainsets and the older California Car/Surfliner car trainsets)... the Michigan DOT will want the bi-level equipment.But with this Talgo equipment in operation, they might be able to do the other states a favor and agree to take acceptance of their equipment last. The single level trainsets on the San Joaquin and Pacific Surfliner are proof that bi-level cars are badly needed in California.


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## Anderson (May 6, 2014)

There's also been talk of additional trains in WA down the line (I know WA wants a daylight train to Spokane, for example), and an additional pair of sets opens that door once the track improvements are complete. With that said, I was thinking that MI might do something like what you suggest there. The other (not improbable, so long as fare spikes don't keep happening) possibility is that MI might end up needing more equipment than they expected, and the Talgos could end up being a cheaper choice than exercising on the 200-car option.

Edit: Then again, with the RFI, it isn't impossible that WA could opt to turn the _Cascades_ over to a non-Amtrak operator...though that could easily lead to a game of Musical Talgos as WA takes the Talgos from MI while Amtrak moves their Talgos from the Northwest to the Midwest (maybe on the Hiawathas...or into MI, for that matter).


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## afigg (May 6, 2014)

neroden said:


> > What "rejiggering" of the railroad stations? If it is platform length,
> 
> 
> I'm guessing it's platform height. Since the Talgos will only be used for two years -- and probably not *exclusively* -- I think the FRA will probably be lenient.


The Talgo trainsets use low level platforms same as the corridor bi-level cars on order. For the Midwest, the Talgos are closer to compliance on the level boarding rule than the Horizons.
The coach portion of the 14 car long Wisconsin Talgo is about 603' long or equivalent to a 7.1 Horizon coach cars*. I figure the former state senator was referring to platform length, but people can always walk forward or back a car or two if stopping at a station with a platform less than 600' long.

*Source January 2014 Train Magazine article on the Talgos being built in Wisconsin which lists the Talgo coach carbody length as 43.1 feet.


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## afigg (May 6, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> The only reason for WSDOT or ODOT to purchase these 2 trainsets would be to replace the 2 Amtrak owned Series VI trainsets. That would only be necessary if WSDOT/ODOT dump Amtrak as the operator of the Cascades in favor of say BNSF.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


The WS DOT plans for the Cascades service includes acquiring one additional Talgo trainset to support the increased service frequencies post 2017. If Talgo gets a hefty settlement from WI, WS DOT may be able to buy 2 slightly used trainsets for the price of one.
If ridership on the Cascades corridor starts to take off once the improvement projects are completed amd the Seattle to Portland service is increased to 6 daily trains, acquiring 2 additional Series 8 trainsets could allow for breaking up one of the original set to lengthen the other trainsets for more seats per train.

With all the HSIPR projects forced to be completed by September 2017 (or else) andthe arrival of new equipment, 2017 and 2018 are shaping up to be interesting years for passenger rail in the US.


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## CHamilton (May 29, 2014)

The Last Train from Talgo



> Talgo moved its last trains from Milwaukee last night, ending this city’s dream of becoming a hub for state-of-the-art rail transit.
> 
> Yes, the train has left the station. Talgo, the international company based in Spain and the U.S., which had created a facility to build trains in Milwaukee, closed up the shop on the north side of the city last night as its last trainsets rolled out of town.
> 
> ...


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## CHamilton (Jul 29, 2014)

Photos of the former Wisconsin Talgos in Beech Grove, from the Hoosiers for Passenger Rail Facebook group.


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## sechs (Aug 2, 2014)

CHamilton said:


> Photos of the former Wisconsin Talgos in Beech Grove, from the Hoosiers for Passenger Rail Facebook group.


Looks like a Facebook login page to me....


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## MrFSS (Aug 2, 2014)

sechs said:


> CHamilton said:
> 
> 
> > Photos of the former Wisconsin Talgos in Beech Grove, from the Hoosiers for Passenger Rail Facebook group.
> ...


 Yep, it does. Charlie, can you fix the link?


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## rickycourtney (Aug 2, 2014)

Link works for me. Do you two have Facebook accounts?


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## sechs (Aug 2, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> Link works for me. Do you two have Facebook accounts?


Not even one.


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## MrFSS (Aug 2, 2014)

sechs said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> > Link works for me. Do you two have Facebook accounts?
> ...


 But if the settings are correct, even non FB folks should be able to see them. So, must not be set to public.


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## CHamilton (Aug 2, 2014)

Unfortunately, I don't know the poster, so I don't have a way to ask him to post the photos in a public location. My apologies.


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## grover5995 (Sep 1, 2014)

Perhaps a private operator like Virgin Rail could operate the Hiawatha Corridor and extend service to Madison and Green Bay on existing tracks. If it included an express line from CUS to O'Hare Field, this would be a nice regional operation with some of the politics taken out.


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## MattW (Sep 2, 2014)

grover5995 said:


> Perhaps a private operator like Virgin Rail could operate the Hiawatha Corridor and extend service to Madison and Green Bay on existing tracks. If it included an express line from CUS to O'Hare Field, this would be a nice regional operation with some of the politics taken out.


Great idea, but who's going to pay for it?


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## andersone (Sep 2, 2014)

there is just something wonderful about the sound of

virgin rail


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## Steve4031 (Sep 2, 2014)

Can we talk about talgos and Michigan please?


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## Shawn Ryu (Sep 2, 2014)

andersone said:


> there is just something wonderful about the sound of
> 
> virgin rail


As opposed to the HOOOOOOOOOOO TRAIN?


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## PerRock (Sep 2, 2014)

grover5995 said:


> Perhaps a private operator like Virgin Rail could operate the Hiawatha Corridor and extend service to Madison and Green Bay on existing tracks. If it included an express line from CUS to O'Hare Field, this would be a nice regional operation with some of the politics taken out.


I wouldn't mind seeing First Group start operating over here either. They already do buses.

peter


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## Train Rider (Sep 2, 2014)

The rail line from Watertown (half-way between Milwaukee and Madison) to Madison was last rebuilt in the 1930s and needs to have the entire thing to include the railbed rebuilt. The line goes through significant wetlands that have made the existing railbed unstable. It can be rebuilt, but will cost a huge pile of money.


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## neroden (Sep 2, 2014)

That was the w



Train Rider said:


> The rail line from Watertown (half-way between Milwaukee and Madison) to Madison was last rebuilt in the 1930s and needs to have the entire thing to include the railbed rebuilt. The line goes through significant wetlands that have made the existing railbed unstable. It can be rebuilt, but will cost a huge pile of money.


Yep. That's the work which was fully funded by the federal money which Scott Walker turned down at the bidding of his fossil fuel buddies.


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## amtrakwolverine (Sep 15, 2014)

Looks like Michigan got the green light to buy the train sets.



> Lansing— The tracks have been cleared for the state to develop faster
> 
> , cushier Amtrak service between Detroit and Chicago now that the Michigan Senate has ended its probe of a state passenger rail car purchase.


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140915/METRO06/309150021#ixzz3DMIl7goS


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## PerRock (Sep 15, 2014)

I find it interesting the Corridor Capitol was the company pushing for MDOT not to use the Talgos. The bid was/is for cars, not service and CC doesn't have any cars that could even remotely come close to what the bid asks for. I believe they own some old HiLevels that need refurbishing, something MDOT is not interested in doing.

On the plus side it sounds like we could have these Talgos running on the line in in a few months... looks like I have a trip to Chicago in my future!

peter


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## Steve4031 (Sep 15, 2014)

This is cool!!!!


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## Rob Creighton (Sep 15, 2014)

4 hours Chicago to Detroit! I'll believe it when I ride it. That said, it's a very good goal to have. 

A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:

"Current aluminum coaches on the route lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, contain harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the department says."

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140915/METRO06/309150021#ixzz3DOHDTrvE

There might not be hot water and the lights may be a touch harsh. But I could plug in my electronic devices. They had wi-fi and I believe the floors were carpeted. The train out of Pontiac didn't seem as "fresh" as the one out of Chicago... obviously it had been through the 6 hour ride there... I get the sentiment of the paragraph. New trains=new technology=modern, but that paragraph makes the current trains seem really unattractive, which I don't think they are.


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## Steve4031 (Sep 15, 2014)

Hopefully sooner than a few months. Aren't the talgos ready to go? They just have to move them.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 15, 2014)

Don't the T&E Crews have to qualify on New Equipment and will there be a Tech Rep like on the Cascade Talgos??


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## PerRock (Sep 15, 2014)

jimhudson said:


> Don't the T&E Crews have to qualify on New Equipment and will there be a Tech Rep like on the Cascade Talgos??


Speaking of a tech rep, wasn't part of the deal with WI, that there was going to be a dedicated Talgo maintenance facility? What is MDOT going to do about that?

peter


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## Gumby (Sep 15, 2014)

The Talgo cab cars at least will need to be outfitted with ITCS at the Grove. Hopefully Talgo has a tech on hand to learn and familiarize themself with that added equipment. Likewise, you would hope (think) Amtrak would send every Michigan service engineer to a familiarization class taught by a talgo rep. But I wouldn't hold my breath on that last one


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## rickycourtney (Sep 15, 2014)

Rob Creighton said:


> A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:
> 
> "Current aluminum coaches on the route lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, contain harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the department says."


Actually if you re-read that... it's not hyperbole from the newspaper, it's from the Michigan Department of Transportation.
I actually think it's a pretty fair criticism of the Horizon cars. Remember this is the most visible part of the train experience for passengers... and the Horizon experience is pretty underwhelming. The Talgo's will be a huge upgrade in terms of passenger experience.



PerRock said:


> jimhudson said:
> 
> 
> > Don't the T&E Crews have to qualify on New Equipment and will there be a Tech Rep like on the Cascade Talgos??
> ...


Ah, yes. Talgo's "dirty little secret"... only Talgo gets to maintain Talgo equipment. It was a part of the deal with Wisconsin that there would be a dedicated Talgo maintenance facility in Milwaukee. Personally I think it never made a whole lot of sense considering Amtrak already has a giant maintenance facility on the other end of the line in Chicago. I assume that's where the maintenance will be done on these trainsets.

While I don't think it's right for most circumstances… Talgo's mandatory maintenance contract could be a good thing here considering the sad shape of Amtrak's Chicago maintenance facility.

I'm guessing that maintenance will be done just like it's done here in the Pacific Northwest... by Amtrak employees, under contract to and supervised by Talgo. I also think it's a pretty safe bet that there will be a Talgo techs onboard the trains.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 15, 2014)

It seems that Talgo provides a service tech, at least initially, to ride on the trains. As far as a special maintenance facility, well maybe that was an oversell on the Wisconsin project. Amtrak does have a facility at Brighton Park in Chicago that used to be used as a maintenance base for the turbos, so perhaps that can be rehabbed for Talgo's purposes.

Corridor Capital was trying to sell or lease some old Santa Fe hi-levels to Michigan, but since these cars in their present condition aren't even ADA compliant, that was probably a difficult sell.

Looking forward to having these trains operational in the midwest. With the new double=deck cars on the way in a couple years, and the Illinois and Michigan 110-mhp operations, corridor traffic should see some real improvements. I hope Talgo is able to get all its money from Wisconsin and the voters in Wisconsin dispatch Walker and his presidential ambitions.


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## afigg (Sep 15, 2014)

Rob Creighton said:


> 4 hours Chicago to Detroit! I'll believe it when I ride it. That said, it's a very good goal to have.
> 
> A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:
> 
> "Current aluminum coaches on the route lack modern amenities and are deteriorating because Amtrak has no budget to overhaul them, according to MDOT. They have institutional decor, lack carpeting, contain harsh lighting and lack hot water in restrooms, the department says."


The currently funded improvements are expect to result in roughly 4:30 to 4:45 Chicago to Detroit trip times. To get the trip time down to 4 hours will require the proposed South of the Lake dedicated passenger track route from Chicago to Porter to be built and some extended double track segments in MI. Which will take a lot more money which in turn will need federal funding to be turned on again for intercity passenger rail. So it is likely to be some time before there is a 4 hour CHI-DET trip time in the schedule. But by sometime in 2017, the current trip times and reliability should be notably improved.

As for the Horizons, a set for the Michigan services could be completely refurbished for a lot less than the $58 million to be spent acquiring the 2 Talgo trainsets. But with new bi-level cars on the way and the opportunity to get 2 new shiny trainsets to run in the near term, understandable why the state nor the FRA is interested in paying to refurb Horizon cars. New trainsets will help sell the Wolverine service while waiting for the bi-level equipment.

From the article, I get the impression that MI DOT plans to keep the Talgos even after the new bi-level cars arrive. Or least, that is the public plan. With the Midwest now slated to get 122 bi-level cars, also retaining the Talgos would provide an even greater increase in capacity for the Midwest corridor services and ability to pursue service expansion options.

However, $58 million would pay for double tracking of maybe 15-20 miles of the Porter-Dearborn route. So there are tradeoffs in spending the money on buying the Talgo trainsets.


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## rrdude (Sep 15, 2014)

I bet Michigan keeps them for the Pere Marquette, or Blue Water, either way, it's a BIG WIN for Michigan train riders.........


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## PaulM (Sep 15, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> Rob Creighton said:
> 
> 
> > A little bit of hyperbole from the Detroit news on the state of the passenger cars though:
> ...


"Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.

I do have one question about Talgos. If they are anything like the Cascade's version, there's no place for folding bikes. The luggage racks at the end of the coaches are tiny. Not a problem in WA because they have baggage cars with bike racks.

I was about to say full size bikes would have the same problem. But then it's only Illinois and Missouri that have roll-on, roll-off bike service.


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## bretton88 (Sep 15, 2014)

PaulM said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Creighton said:
> ...


The Talgo baggage cars in these new sets have 10 full bike racks in the baggage car, so it shouldn't be a problem


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## rickycourtney (Sep 15, 2014)

PaulM said:


> "Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.


True, any train service is better than no train service. I was comparing the Michigan service to peers like California, Washington and Oregon. Compared to the cars used on those services, the Horizon cars are underwhelming. That's why the folks along the San Joaquin corridor in Central California fought against getting the Comet/Horizon cars. I'm happy to see Michigan fighting to get better equipment for passengers.
On that note, I'm curious to see if Michigan will "take one for the team" and agree to take delivery of their new bi-level cars last. Passengers will be getting a better experience on these Talgo cars in the interim so there will be less pressure to get new equipment in service in Michigan. I'm sure there will be various political reasons for who gets what, when... but it would be nice to spread the wealth around.


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## WoodyinNYC (Sep 16, 2014)

rickycourtney said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> > "Underwhelming" One of my favorite words; but not one that comes to mind when I board an Illinois service train. I'm with Bob here. Given the choice between Horizons and the type of rail cars - none - that the vast majority of Americans have calling in their town, I'll take Horizons.
> ...


Seems equally likely that Michigan citizens, having tasted something better, will be hungrier for more and better trains. That could mean a second Pere Marquette, as rumored, or a second Blue Water, as well as added frequencies on the Wolverines. I suspect Michigan's appetite will be restrained largely by a shortage of rush hour slots in and out of Chicago Union Station, until Metra can get out of the way.


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## Green Maned Lion (Sep 16, 2014)

The "Comet" is actually a converted Arrow, a much nicer car. Nicer than the Surfliners certainly.


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## rrdude (Sep 16, 2014)

Green Maned Lion said:


> The "Comet" is actually a converted Arrow, a much nicer car. Nicer than the Surfliners certainly.


On what planet is a Comet/Arrow coach nicer than a Surfliner coach?


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## jis (Sep 16, 2014)

I am confused. Which Comet is a converted Arrow. Yes the Comarrows (Arrows converted to single level trailer commuter cars) form the basis of the California single level cars that they acquired from NJT. But the NJT Comets having nothing to do with Arrows in design or otherwise.


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## PerRock (Sep 16, 2014)

I thought Horizons were converted Comets; and that the Arrows were different. According to Wikipedia, the Arrows are derived from the Silverliners, not the Comets.

peter


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## SubwayNut (Sep 17, 2014)

An explanation, the Horizons were based on the Comet design, the CommArrows California have, were once Arrows, and became a unique brand of Comet when de-powered.

*Horizons (based on NJT Comets, and MTA Metro-North Shoreliners)*

NJT Calls any non-motorized car a Comet (Including De-motorized former MU Arrow Cars), this generation is similar to a Horizon (without the center door a Comet IV, Comet IIIs and earlier don't have center doors, the car beyond this one):







Metro North Calls them Shoreliners (same situation, older cars no center doors, newer cars have the center doors, they mix and match):






Horizon cars are the same cars (except without Center doors and dutch doors instead of automatic doors):


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## SubwayNut (Sep 17, 2014)

*The California Commarrow Cars*

This is a Comet III, NJT's only current MU electric cars:






The Comet Is were based on this design and depowered, this ones running in NJT service






The same type of car now in California Service:


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## Steve4031 (Sep 17, 2014)

Thank you. That was a helpful explanation of the cars involved in this discussion.


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## Green Maned Lion (Sep 17, 2014)

jis said:


> I am confused. Which Comet is a converted Arrow. Yes the Comarrows (Arrows converted to single level trailer commuter cars) form the basis of the California single level cars that they acquired from NJT. But the NJT Comets having nothing to do with Arrows in design or otherwise.


The cars on the San Joaquin single level trains are comet IBs which are depowered Arrows. Arrows are superior to Surfliners because I say so.


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## Rob Creighton (Sep 17, 2014)

PaulM said:


> rickycourtney said:
> 
> 
> > Rob Creighton said:
> ...


I think what bothered me about the quote that the Detroit News picked up from the Michigan DOT is it makes the trains sound unattractive or uncomfortable to ride. If someone is generally unaware of what riding the train is like and sees that part of the article... They might very well opt to get to where they're going by another mode of transportation. I'm not saying the Horizons are my favorite Amtrak coaches to ride in... they're not. But I don't think someone should skip taking the train over it because they're concerned about spending six hours in an uncomfortable tin can of a coach. In my opinion it's not a significantly different experience than riding in other types of Amtrak coaches for 4 to 6 hours.

That's not saying Michigan and Amtrak shouldn't get new trains with warm water in the bathrooms, more pleasant lighting, and a decor that's nicer. I think every time an order for equipment is placed that's what Amtrak should strive for... I think the Michigan DOT... might have been a little more careful to not make the current trains sound uncomfortable. Just my opinion.


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## Bob Dylan (Sep 17, 2014)

I'm not a big fan of Horizons either so when I ride the Wolverine (and the Lincoln/River Runner Route) its worth the Upgrade to Business Class for the nice 2x1 Faux Leather Seats!!

As one who likes the Talgos on the Cascades, I'd ride Coach when they go into Michigan Service!


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## Steve4031 (Sep 17, 2014)

I'll be making points runs when they operate the targets. I wonder how hard it will be to get on the inaugural run.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Sep 17, 2014)

1st run might be hard to do. If they run in pool service it's pot luck, if MiDOT commits to use them on a certain run, much easier.

I am more interest in the Maintance. How and where are the going to be service. I guess a long tent will do, but near Chicago I see a problem with MiDOT funds going to another state, never mind the Chicago yard space and employee issues.

Don't forget the Downeast can only be supply/resupplied in Maine not Boston. More of a Union issue at in Boston I was told.

Best bet is to limited the time of the equipment in Chicago.


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## Steve4031 (Sep 17, 2014)

I think they could do something near Pontiac.


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## tommylicious (Sep 17, 2014)

what do these new talgo cars look like?


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## PerRock (Sep 17, 2014)

tommylicious said:


> what do these new talgo cars look like?


Like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=Wisconsin+Talgo&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=6u2&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=4-0ZVPuZH8qnyAS-8ILYBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1244&bih=825

peter


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## SarahZ (Sep 17, 2014)

Steve4031 said:


> I think they could do something near Pontiac.


I would love to see them open a maintenance facility near Detroit, where there is a large pool of unemployed, qualified machinists, welders, etc, but I believe someone mentioned it would cost X amount of money to open and operate it, and we aren't sure if Michigan is willing to put the money into it when there is already a maintenance facility in Chicago.

That said, Governor Snyder campaigned on job creation and has mentioned that the track upgrades will (hopefully) attract new business to the Detroit area, as the commute time to/from Chicago will be greatly reduced, so who knows? I can easily see him championing a maintenance facility in the Detroit area.


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## SarahZ (Sep 17, 2014)

PRR 60 said:


> Eric S said:
> 
> 
> > Certainly possible, given that the plan was for a Talgo maintenance facility to be built in Madison or Milwaukee had the 2 or 4 Talgo sets gone into service on the Hiawatha.
> ...


Here it is.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Sep 17, 2014)

Sorry that story is about Wisconsin, while the cost may be the same, It is a different state. The big issues is long term, when or if the bilevel equipment shows up, what are they going to do.

Is Talgo going try to get all the state services?

Can MiDot sell the bilevel equipment to another state?

Talk about issues. Buying two set of equipment that may not be needed in 5 years.


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## PerRock (Sep 17, 2014)

MDOT might actually lease the BiLevel equipment to another state rather then sell it. That way it stays in their pool if they need it & they make money off from them. I know Corridor Capitol will be looking to lease some cars for their IN service.

peter


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## rickycourtney (Sep 17, 2014)

Ironically, Wisconsin may be looking to lease some rail cars here in the near future.


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## MikefromCrete (Sep 18, 2014)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Sorry that story is about Wisconsin, while the cost may be the same, It is a different state. The big issues is long term, when or if the bilevel equipment shows up, what are they going to do.
> 
> Is Talgo going try to get all the state services?
> 
> ...


Since the bi-levels are being built with federal funds, Michigan could not sell them, at least not at a profit. A lease to a private company would be iffy. Michigan, however, has plans to expand service, including double day runs on the Pere Marquette and Blue Water and a Holland-Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit route, so they would have plenty of trains to use the double-deckers.

I doubt if Talgo is interested in anything more than getting rid of the Wisconsin train sets. Remember, they closed the plant in Milwaukee that built the four Oregon-Wisconsin sets, so they would have to set up a whole new factory to build more.


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## tommylicious (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks Per. The cars look nice, the engines really really weird.



PerRock said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > what do these new talgo cars look like?
> ...


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## jis (Sep 18, 2014)

tommylicious said:


> Thanks Per. The cars look nice, the engines really really weird.


That is not an engine. That is an unpowered cab car.
Presumably, engines used with these would either be P42s or the new Siemens Chargers.


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## Devil's Advocate (Sep 18, 2014)

jis said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Per. The cars look nice, the engines really really weird.
> ...


IIRC that is a US spec cab car that had to be created for the US market thanks to our unique focus on surviving crashes rather than avoiding them. Other Talgo hardware in other countries looks sleek and appealing to my eye. That being said I'm not a fan of Talgo's single wheel trucks operating on US spec freight rails. When I rode the Cascades the ride quality was rougher and bumpier than any other industrialized rail network I've ever experienced. It seems to me that having to commute on a route that jarring could make working or sleeping on board rather difficult. Maybe folks who ride the route daily eventually get used to it but I never did.


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## PerRock (Sep 18, 2014)

provided they run on the wolverine route, it should be smoother once in Michigan, as that line is now primarily used for "high speed" passenger trains.

peter


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## Anderson (Jan 6, 2015)

So...following on a suggestion from afigg, has there been any further noise/movement on this front?


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## Steve4031 (Jan 6, 2015)

They need to get this done. The nasty weather is here.


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## iggy (Jan 7, 2015)

"we aren't sure if Michigan is willing to put the money into it when there is already a maintenance facility in Chicago"

If I remember correctly this has been covered multiple times in this thread. But current Chicago operations can't handle maintenance of Talgo equipment. So whoever ends up with orphan Talgo's will have to invest in maintenance facility or ship them out West for work when needed. This would have been unnecessary if original plan had stayed in place. Talgo had operations up and running but got run off.

"I know Corridor Capitol will be looking to lease some cars for their IN service"

Has something changed in past few weeks? Last I read Corridor Capitol isn't looking for or won't be needing anything - except good PR person to make bad situation look good. For foreseeable future Amtrak has won Indiana battle.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 7, 2015)

The Talgo facility in Milwaukee was for trainset assembly. It was not a maintenance facility. Had Wisconsin taken ownership of the two Talgo sets, a new maintenance facility would have been needed. The cost was something in the neighborhood of $30 million. That is a lot of money to build and stock a shop for two trains. Wisconsin asked Amtrak if they could maintain the Talgo's in Chicago. Amtrak said no. I would assume the same answer would be provided to Michigan.

Corridor Capital is no longer being considered for the Hoosier State operation. The latest proposal is a for Iowa Pacific to provide passenger cars and any on-board services, and Amtrak to operate the train. At least according to IP, Amtrak is on board with this idea. The proposal is still being developed.


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## jis (Jan 7, 2015)

Iowa Pacific and Amtrak have good working relationship, and are in the process of developing the concept of high quality sleeper service using IP equipment attached to Amtrak trains on various routes on a semi-regular basis. Iowa Pacific has also been trying to develop a local service between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. They own the Saratoga and North Creek which runs regular service in season between Amtrak Saratoga Springs station (Adirondack, Ethan Allen) and North Creek usually making reasonable connection with Amtrak.


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## PerRock (Jan 7, 2015)

Anderson said:


> So...following on a suggestion from afigg, has there been any further noise/movement on this front?


 I messaged MDOT on Twitter asking them about the status of the plan here is their responce:



@MichiganDOT said:


> @*PFreeman008* Nothing new to report yet, Peter. Still under review. Thanks for checking in!


peter


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## jis (Jan 7, 2015)

I bet the review will continue long past February


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## Steve4031 (Jan 7, 2015)

IMHO put a fork in this. It's done. Will never happen.


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## neroden (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm betting there are convoluted legal issues involved. But I also think this will probably actually happen.


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## Steve4031 (Jan 7, 2015)

I hope so. I'm tired of how slow stuff moves in this country


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## Anderson (Jan 7, 2015)

jis said:


> Iowa Pacific and Amtrak have good working relationship, and are in the process of developing the concept of high quality sleeper service using IP equipment attached to Amtrak trains on various routes on a semi-regular basis. Iowa Pacific has also been trying to develop a local service between Oklahoma City and Tulsa. They own the Saratoga and North Creek which runs regular service in season between Amtrak Saratoga Springs station (Adirondack, Ethan Allen) and North Creek usually making reasonable connection with Amtrak.


I've heard their relationship is a bit more complicated...notably the fact that there's a lack of through booking on, say, the Saratoga and North Creek (the term "Thruway Train" is used with respect to the Grand Canyon Railway, so there's no reason that a similar deal couldn't be done elsewhere).


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 7, 2015)

Hey the Cardinal could be run daily with Iowa Pacific Cars attached, a much better route than the City of New Orleans!

If the Card does go daily and the Hoosier State plan works out it would be a Win/Win for rail travelers!

My concern is that the State of Indiana won't come up with the Money it requires, their politicians aren't exactly founding father material!!


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## Steve4031 (Jan 7, 2015)

Why are we talking about Iowa pacific in a talgo thread . . .?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 7, 2015)

Steve4031 said:


> Why are we talking about Iowa pacific in a talgo thread . . .?


Related to jis' post re the working relationship between Amtrak and Iowa Pacific and the fact that the Talgos, if run to Michigan from CHI, will travel through Indiana which raises the funding question!!


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 7, 2015)

Indiana has nothing to do with the funding or operation of the Michigan trains.


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 8, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> Indiana has nothing to do with the funding or operation of the Michigan trains.


I know they don't fund Michigan trains, but they will need to invest in infrastructure and track upgrades if they are going to run State funded trains!
These trains run through three states, Illinois and Michigan which are rail friendly, and Indiana which is anything but! Plus Beechgrove is right outside Indianapolis which gives Amtrak sort of a whip hand when it comes to jobs etc.

If Indiana wants trains they're gonna have to pay up, no free lunch!


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## MattW (Jan 8, 2015)

I don't think intermediate states are required to put up funding if the surrounding states do, afterall, they aren't paying Indiana for any upgrades, they are paying the host railroads.


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## jis (Jan 8, 2015)

jimhudson said:


> If Indiana wants trains they're gonna have to pay up, no free lunch!


Tell that to New Hampshire. Of course there is free lunch, if you can manage to get away with it!


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## CHamilton (Mar 23, 2015)

State transport chief delays Amtrak cars purchase


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## MikefromCrete (Mar 23, 2015)

It's too bad the Talgos have been caught up in the WALLY fiasco. They should have been in service months ago. And it looks like Capital Corridor is still trying to sell its old hi-level cars to somebody.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 24, 2015)

MikefromCrete said:


> It's too bad the Talgos have been caught up in the WALLY fiasco. They should have been in service months ago. And it looks like Capital Corridor is still trying to sell its old hi-level cars to somebody.


That's Corridor Capital, not to be confused with the Capitol Corridor service in California.


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## jis (Oct 18, 2015)

The continuing saga of the Wisconsin Talgos (from Railway Gazette):



> *USA:* The state of Wisconsin has reached a settlement regarding its cancellation of a 2009 order for Talgo to supply and maintain two trainsets. Talgo will receive $9·7m and retain ownership of the trains. If it can find a new customer, Talgo will share 30% of the net purchase price or 10% of annual net lease proceeds with the state.


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## NW cannonball (Oct 18, 2015)

OK, got the basics. Don't deal with the State of Wisconsin anytime soon. They bust the contract, they hold your assets hostage, you get 70% of your investment back after a few years. UhUh, no way.

Don't deal with Wisconsin. Clear enough.


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## WoodyinNYC (Oct 18, 2015)

jis said:


> The continuing saga of the Wisconsin Talgos (from Railway Gazette):
> 
> 
> 
> > *USA:* The state of Wisconsin has reached a settlement regarding its cancellation of a 2009 order for Talgo to supply and maintain two trainsets. Talgo will receive $9·7m and retain ownership of the trains. If it can find a new customer, Talgo will share 30% of the net purchase price or 10% of annual net lease proceeds with the state.


But now what? LOL. Is Michigan still a prospective buyer? Last I was reading, the Talgos would need their own maintenance facility; that seemed to make the otherwise appealing notion far too costly for the _Wolverine_ route.

The only existing Talgo maintenance facility in the U.S. would be serving the _Cascades _trains. However, Washington and Oregon can't use these unloved-by-Scott-Walker trains as is, because they lack certain cars that are standard in the other _Cascades_ train sets. They'd need a few more cars (food service, business class, and/or what? I'm forgetting the details) to fill them out to _Cascades_ format. 

Cars could be imported off the Talgo assembly line in Spain -- except that no federal funds could be used due to the Made-in-USA rules. But any added Made-in-USA cars would be extremely expensive two-offs or four-offs, virtually custom-built. Or Talgo could sell the ex-Scott Walker cars to its friends in the Pacific Northwest for pennies and eat the loss; maybe a bargain price could offset the states' high costs of the additional cars needed to fill out _Cascades _train sets. Or, the article hints, a lease deal, which could let Washington and Oregon avoid a heavy up-front purchase of the spare trains; perhaps that approach would leave them room to fund on their own the needed cars to fill out the sets. Or just maybe British Columbia could decide that _Cascades_ service is worth it, buy and own the added cars imported direct from the manufacturer in Spain since the Made-in-USA wouldn't apply to the Canadians, and have them used to expand service Vancouver-Seattle. Or something. LOL.

I expect that the continuing saga of the Wisconsin Talgos is gonna continue!


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## PRR 60 (Oct 18, 2015)

jis said:


> The continuing saga of the Wisconsin Talgos (from Railway Gazette):
> 
> 
> 
> > *USA:* The state of Wisconsin has reached a settlement regarding its cancellation of a 2009 order for Talgo to supply and maintain two trainsets. Talgo will receive $9·7m and retain ownership of the trains. If it can find a new customer, Talgo will share 30% of the net purchase price or 10% of annual net lease proceeds with the state.


I believe that settlement occurred in August.

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel


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## PerRock (Oct 18, 2015)

WoodyinNYC said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> > The continuing saga of the Wisconsin Talgos (from Railway Gazette):
> ...


OR/WA might be able to get a waiver to the Made-in-USA rule due to the rest of the fact the rest of the trainset is already made; here in America. MDOT gave me a pretty noncommittal answer when I asked them recently; although they are still looking into it.

https://twitter.com/PFreeman008/status/654781012430360578

peter

peter


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