# AGR Sleeper Reservations Cancellation Policy (Rescinded)



## PRR 60

*NOTE: * This policy was rescinded before it took effect. This discussion thread will remain open to retain and capture discussion concerning the policy decision.

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Starting 1/1/2013, AGR redemption reservations in sleepers that are cancelled less than 15 days prior to travel will not be eligible for redeposit of points or exchange of points to another reservation.

From AGR:



> Beginning January 1, 2013 our cancellation policy for redemption travel will change. Any new or existing redemption travel reservations must be canceled before departure to be eligible for exchange or refund of points. _*If the trip includes sleeping car accommodations, the reservation must be canceled at least 15 days prior to departure to be eligible for exchange or refund of points.*_


AGR News

That is a BIG change. Book a one-zone roomette with 15,000 points. If for some reason you have to cancel or change the trip within 15 days of travel, you lose the 15,000 points. Wow.


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## Devil's Advocate

That is a huge change. For those of us who are not yet retired anyway. I often plan my next trip within a two week window of departure. I also often have last minute changes to previous plans I made long ago. My job does not really care if a personal trip needs to be moved or modified because there was some critical failure somewhere at an inconvenient moment. In the past neither did Amtrak, but now they're itching to void the entire points cost of anything that changes less than two weeks out? This has an impact two ways. No more close-in changes for those who plan way ahead, but also no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others. Without any dependable internet access on board Amtrak isn't well suited for my line of work, and without any easy close-in changes Amtrak isn't well suited for my schedule. The new restrictions to close-in changes on both revenue and point redemption sleeper tickets is a pretty big blow to what used to be one of the most passenger friendly policies in domestic travel.


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## jis

Amtrak is working hard to discourage use of point, even harder than some airlines do to discourage use of FF miles.

So I guess now it will be Sleeper reservations done only at the last moment when I know absolutely for sure that I am traveling.

Next to come no use of AGR points when Sleepers are in high bucket. And so it goes....


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## TimePeace

While I'm not thrilled with the change - which is part of the larger tendency for Amtrak to reduce service and convenience - I don't view this as such a dramatic change. I think most people who travel Amtrak book in advance and don't cancel or change their reservations. For people whose plans are always in flux, it's a bummer. Me, I tend to book LD sleeper trips well in advance and can't remember ever changing one with less than 2 weeks to go. It happens, sure... but this won't impact most riders.

Texas Sunset: >>No more close-in changes for those who plan way ahead, but also no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others. <<

Well - I don't know what portion of sleeper tickets are paid for with AGR points vs. dollars (in my experience a minority, as I am often telling other sleeper passengers about AGR and they have never heard of it), but cash tickets that are cancelled will still come available at the last minute, won't they?


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## Anthony

Sleeper inventory is limited and expensive, and it is all too easy for people to, let's say, hold a room on the Cardinal (with one sleeping car) until the last minute and then decide to cancel... because there's no penalty for doing so. You get all your points back as long as you call before the train leaves. Meanwhile, that room will probably go out unsold due to the late cancellation.


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## Anthony

Texas Sunset said:


> no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others.


Someone could always call to cancel within 15 days -- Amtrak would cancel the room (allowing someone else to book it), they just wouldn't return any points.


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## Devil's Advocate

Maine Rider said:


> Well - I don't know what portion of sleeper tickets are paid for with AGR points vs. dollars (in my experience a minority, as I am often telling other sleeper passengers about AGR and they have never heard of it), but cash tickets that are cancelled will still come available at the last minute, won't they?


As I understand it cash or credit sleeper tickets no longer qualify for full refunds at any point. Those tickets do still qualify for non-extendable electronic vouchers, if I recall correctly, but it's rather less enticing to casually hand over a couple thousand dollars for a round trip bedroom fare when you know there's no practical way to get that money back without giving away $200-$300 in the process. Airlines can obviously get away with that, but when I'm paying that kind of money for a domestic trip I'm usually receiving a refundable ticket in the process. On Amtrak that's simply no longer possible for sleeper passengers.



Anthony said:


> Sleeper inventory is limited and expensive, and it is all too easy for people to, let's say, hold a room on the Cardinal (with one sleeping car) until the last minute and then decide to cancel... because there's no penalty for doing so. You get all your points back as long as you call before the train leaves. Meanwhile, that room will probably go out unsold due to the late cancellation.


Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:



Anthony said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone could always call to cancel within 15 days -- Amtrak would cancel the room (allowing someone else to book it), they just wouldn't return any points.
Click to expand...

I enjoy reading about solutions that involve people shooting themselves in the foot for no reason. ^_^

If you're going to lose the points anyway what would be the _point_ of waiting on the phone just so you could cancel your room? Might as well just leave the ticket alone and hope you can still make it somehow. Maybe that suddenly broken foot will heal in a week instead of a month. No benefit to canceling your trip regardless.


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## Anthony

Texas Sunset said:


> Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:


Easy enough - just call the 800# to upgrade to sleeper. Pay the going rate with your credit card, get an eTicket emailed to you, show it to the conductor, and be led to that vacant room you have just purchased. No smartphone to display an eTicket document? No problem - the conductor's handheld device can retrieve your modified reservation. Nearly all station stops have some cell phone service (even if it's voice only), and you need not wait more than a couple hours in many cases for the next station if cell signal on your carrier is particularly scarce.


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## Anthony

Texas Sunset said:


> If you're going to lose the points anyway what would be the _point_ of waiting on the phone just so you could cancel your room? Might as well just leave the ticket alone and hope you can still make it somehow. Maybe that suddenly broken foot will heal in a week instead of a month. No benefit to canceling your trip regardless.


Now that a no-show will auto-cancel your reservation, if the customer who hopes to capitalize on someone's cancellation is boarding downline, s/he can scoop up that room at the last minute regardless.


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## AlanB

Anthony said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy enough - just call the 800# to upgrade to sleeper. Pay the going rate with your credit card, get an eTicket emailed to you, show it to the conductor, and be led to that vacant room you have just purchased. No smartphone to display an eTicket document? No problem - the conductor's handheld device can retrieve your modified reservation. Nearly all station stops have some cell phone service (even if it's voice only), and you need not wait more than a couple hours in many cases for the next station if cell signal on your carrier is particularly scarce.
Click to expand...

I agree, it's now easier than every before to do an onboard upgrade. One doesn't have to rely on the whims of a conductor to do one. One can simply take the matter into their own hands and just call Amtrak.

What Amtrak did do however is remove any incentive to do an onboard upgrade. One might just as well take care of any upgrade before ever getting onboard.


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## TimePeace

Texas Sunset said:


> Maine Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well - I don't know what portion of sleeper tickets are paid for with AGR points vs. dollars (in my experience a minority, as I am often telling other sleeper passengers about AGR and they have never heard of it), but cash tickets that are cancelled will still come available at the last minute, won't they?
> 
> 
> 
> As I understand it cash or credit sleeper tickets no longer qualify for full refunds at any point. Those tickets do still qualify for non-extendable electronic vouchers, if I recall correctly, but it's rather less enticing to casually hand over a couple thousand dollars for a round trip bedroom fare when you know there's no practical way to get that money back without giving away $200-$300 in the process. Airlines can obviously get away with that, but when I'm paying that kind of money for a domestic trip I'm usually receiving a refundable ticket in the process. On Amtrak that's simply no longer possible for sleeper passengers.
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sleeper inventory is limited and expensive, and it is all too easy for people to, let's say, hold a room on the Cardinal (with one sleeping car) until the last minute and then decide to cancel... because there's no penalty for doing so. You get all your points back as long as you call before the train leaves. Meanwhile, that room will probably go out unsold due to the late cancellation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Someone could always call to cancel within 15 days -- Amtrak would cancel the room (allowing someone else to book it), they just wouldn't return any points.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I enjoy reading about solutions that involve people shooting themselves in the foot for no reason. ^_^
> 
> If you're going to lose the points anyway what would be the _point_ of waiting on the phone just so you could cancel your room? Might as well just leave the ticket alone and hope you can still make it somehow. Maybe that suddenly broken foot will heal in a week instead of a month. No benefit to canceling your trip regardless.
Click to expand...

Good question.

How about, being of somewhat generous spirit and letting someone else have a last minute shot at the room. If you know 14 days before the date that you can't go, it becomes available in plenty of time for someone else to take advantage of it, even if you lose the refund.


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## the_traveler

That's what I would do too. If I'm going to lose 15K-60K, why not essentially give someone a gift of 15K-60K?


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## Devil's Advocate

Anthony said:


> Texas Sunset said:
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy enough - just call the 800# to upgrade to sleeper. Pay the going rate with your credit card, get an eTicket emailed to you, show it to the conductor, and be led to that vacant room you have just purchased. No smartphone to display an eTicket document? No problem - the conductor's handheld device can retrieve your modified reservation. Nearly all station stops have some cell phone service (even if it's voice only), and you need not wait more than a couple hours in many cases for the next station if cell signal on your carrier is particularly scarce.
Click to expand...

The issue you originally described (rooms going out vacant due to last minute penalty-free cancellations) was referring to the period BEFORE Amtrak moved to e-ticketing and started cracking down on refund options, correct? The solution I described (easy access to upgrades by coach passengers) also was referring to the same timeline. Giving me today's answer to yesterday's problem makes no sense in this context. In addition, on the routes I travel most mobile service is often useless outside of stops, but stops often don't last long enough to wait on hold and then work through the sale before you're back in the boonies again. Even on a smart phone you're talking about very slow data outside of major metros. That's not to say it would never be possible, but it's hard to imagine you could count on it working when and where you want it to. Not every part of this country is as connected as the North East.



Anthony said:


> Now that a no-show will auto-cancel your reservation, if the customer who hopes to capitalize on someone's cancellation is boarding downline, s/he can scoop up that room at the last minute regardless.


In the past things would start to open up about a week or so before departure. That was quite workable for me. I can often make plans a few days in advance and get everything ready by then. But what you're describing is waiting until the train is already in motion. Thanks to schedule changes the Sunset Limited no longer works with my schedule. The Texas Eagle schedule still works just fine, but since I'm departing from the first stop on the route there's not much time to see who got canceled as the train will presumably be locked up and moving by then.



AlanB said:


> I agree, it's now easier than every before to do an onboard upgrade. One doesn't have to rely on the whims of a conductor to do one. One can simply take the matter into their own hands and just call Amtrak. What Amtrak did do however is remove any incentive to do an onboard upgrade. One might just as well take care of any upgrade before ever getting onboard.


So it's easier now than ever before, even though there was nothing ever stopping you from buying the room (at full cost) over the phone in the past? Seems like the only part that changed is that the Conductor doesn't have to call the reservations desk to confirm. Big whoop. Are you really even upgrading at that point? Almost seems like you're simply trashing your previous ticket and buying a whole new ticket to replace it. At which point aren't you're basically just throwing your money away? Unless I'm missing something this does not appear to be much of an improvement.



the_traveler said:


> That's what I would do too. If I'm going to lose 15K-60K, why not essentially give someone a gift of 15K-60K?


I don't think you fully understand the situation. Amtrak gets your 15,000 - 60,000 points and some other passenger must use another 15,000-60,000 additional points (or $300-$3,000) to buy the room a second time for the exact same train on the exact same trip.


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## PRR 60

If I have an AGR reservation and will lose all my points anyway, why would I cancel and give away what ever flexibility I have. Even if I am 95% certain I cannot use the reservation, there is now zero incentive for me to give the room away or call to change my reservation.

The real winner is Amtrak. Once the new policy kicks in, Amtrak has a chance to sell the same room twice. Once, with my points that they keep if I cancel within two weeks of travel, then a second time from a possible second reservation for my cancelled room by someone else using either AGR points or cash.

I can't understand the difference between paid reservations and AGR. With a paid sleeper reservation, canceling anytime up to time of departure will get you a voucher toward future travel. With AGR, cancel less them 15 days prior to travel and you forfeit all the points. Why?


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## Anthony

PRR 60 said:


> I can't understand the difference between paid reservations and AGR. With a paid sleeper reservation, canceling anytime up to time of departure will get you a voucher toward future travel. With AGR, cancel less them 15 days prior to travel and you forfeit all the points. Why?


Points and dollars are very different animals, and Amtrak is certainly not alone in the travel industry when it treats them differently. Points are a potentially eternal liability on Amtrak's books, while your eVoucher balance is only a liability for the year until it expires -- or until you use it toward travel, at which time it gets realized as revenue. Points often cost Amtrak money when they are used for travel (if the use of points displaces a paying customer on a sold-out train), and points _always_ cost Amtrak real money when used for non-travel redemptions (like gift cards or hotels). It's hard for a paid reservation to cost Amtrak anything.

AGR is still an extremely generous program -- if they have to make some small adjustments that airlines and other competitors already made years ago in order to remain innovative and generous in so many other areas, personally I don't mind.


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## AlanB

Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, it's now easier than every before to do an onboard upgrade. One doesn't have to rely on the whims of a conductor to do one. One can simply take the matter into their own hands and just call Amtrak. What Amtrak did do however is remove any incentive to do an onboard upgrade. One might just as well take care of any upgrade before ever getting onboard.
> 
> 
> 
> So it's easier now than ever before, even though there was nothing ever stopping you from buying the room (at full cost) over the phone in the past? Seems like the only part that changed is that the Conductor doesn't have to call the reservations desk to confirm. Big whoop. Are you really even upgrading at that point? Almost seems like you're simply trashing your previous ticket and buying a whole new ticket to replace it. At which point aren't you're basically just throwing your money away? Unless I'm missing something this does not appear to be much of an improvement.
Click to expand...

No, in the past you couldn't call up the 800 number once you were onboard to do an upgrade. You could only go to the conductor, whom as you like to claim was never interested in doing an upgrade. Now, one doesn't need to have to hope for a good conductor if one changes their mind once onboard or if someone no shows. Now one can do the upgrade themselves and basically take the conductor out of the loop.

And you couldn't even call if you were in a station, unless you were in a staffed station where you could then run to the counter to exchange your tickets. Now anyone can call even from an unstaffed station to do a last minute upgrade.

That means it is easier!

Now, do I like some of the other changes? NO! But it most certainly is easier to do an last minute or onboard upgrade than ever before. And one doesn't have to worry about a fickle conductor!


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## TimePeace

Anthony said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't understand the difference between paid reservations and AGR. With a paid sleeper reservation, canceling anytime up to time of departure will get you a voucher toward future travel. With AGR, cancel less them 15 days prior to travel and you forfeit all the points. Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Points and dollars are very different animals, and Amtrak is certainly not alone in the travel industry when it treats them differently. Points are a potentially eternal liability on Amtrak's books, while your eVoucher balance is only a liability for the year until it expires -- or until you use it toward travel, at which time it gets realized as revenue. Points often cost Amtrak money when they are used for travel (if the use of points displaces a paying customer on a sold-out train), and points _always_ cost Amtrak real money when used for non-travel redemptions (like gift cards or hotels). It's hard for a paid reservation to cost Amtrak anything.
> 
> AGR is still an extremely generous program -- if they have to make some small adjustments that airlines and other competitors already made years ago in order to remain innovative and generous in so many other areas, personally I don't mind.
Click to expand...

What he said.


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## OlympianHiawatha

I usually book my AGR trips several weeks ahead of time and while this new policy does add a bit of "fear factor" to to equation, I don't see it as an Endgame scenario. I try to book as early as possible because, especially if several trains are involved, I want to be sure I can get an upstairs Sleeper all the way through.


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## the_traveler

Even if it was still before the train departs or an hour before departure, Amtrak could resell that room. So what incentive is there for me to call? :blink: And you mentioned airlines. Is there a change fee or a redeposit fee like the airlines, or will the AGR points just go bye-bye? :angry: I don't agree or like it at all!


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## crescent2

This is not good news even for retired people. Older people tend to have more health issues, and family members with health issues, that can necessitate an unforeseen travel change near the time of departure. The new policy seems overly restrictive; seems that partial points or a voucher could be returned, or have a shorter time frame than 15 days out. Or charge a "change fee" for changing the reservation near departure time (15 days still seems a long time even for that). Paying a fee would be more acceptable than losing everything.

I agree there is absolutely no incentive to cancel the trip if you are going to lose everything anyway. With a total loss the alternative, I would just hold the tickets and wait to see if circumstances change somehow to allow the trip. This factor alone seems reason enough for Amtrak to have at least a slightly less restrictive policy. Of course, Amtrak has already been "paid" in AGR, but would lose the opportunity to sell the room a second time. Most passengers would probably be unaware an empty room was available on board.

If I lost my 25,000 points I would NOT be a happy camper!


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## PRR 60

crescent2 said:


> This is not good news even for retired people. Older people tend to have more health issues, and family members with health issues, that can necessitate an unforeseen travel change near the time of departure. The new policy seems overly restrictive; seems that partial points or a voucher could be returned, or have a shorter time frame than 15 days out. Or charge a "change fee" for changing the reservation near departure time (15 days still seems a long time even for that). Paying a fee would be more acceptable than losing everything.
> 
> I agree there is absolutely no incentive to cancel the trip if you are going to lose everything anyway. With a total loss the alternative, I would just hold the tickets and wait to see if circumstances change somehow to allow the trip. This factor alone seems reason enough for Amtrak to have at least a slightly less restrictive policy. Of course, Amtrak has already been "paid" in AGR, but would lose the opportunity to sell the room a second time. Most passengers would probably be unaware an empty room was available on board.
> 
> If I lost my 25,000 points I would NOT be a happy camper!


The issue with retired people and medical uncertainty is valid, and the demographic of sleeper travel seems to skew toward the older passenger. This policy will certainly make me think twice about booking a sleeper as an AGR award.

It was mentioned that Amtrak was simply catching up to what airline frequent flyer programs did years ago. I am not aware of any airline that requires members to forfeit all miles for a cancelled award reservation. Most have a redeposit fee, typically $150 (waived for top level elites), but if you booked a 40,000 mile trip FF award trip and cancel, you at least get all your miles back. The loss is $150. That is it. Lose all my AGR points used for a trip because my wife or I got sick? Sorry, that stinks.


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## Blackwolf

This brings up an interesting question. You can buy, with physical money, travel insurance that will help you out in the event of an unplanned event which would not allow you to travel.

Why not offer, for those with a concern over loosing thousands of points, an insurance offering that would 'protect' them should an event that is covered occur?

Seems like a win/better than nothing option to me. Amtrak stands to make even more money off of insurance premiums, and AGR members (at a cost) stand to not loose everything point-wise if something happens.


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## PRR 60

Blackwolf said:


> This brings up an interesting question. You can buy, with physical money, travel insurance that will help you out in the event of an unplanned event which would not allow you to travel.
> 
> Why not offer, for those with a concern over loosing thousands of points, an insurance offering that would 'protect' them should an event that is covered occur?
> 
> Seems like a win/better than nothing option to me. Amtrak stands to make even more money off of insurance premiums, and AGR members (at a cost) stand to not loose everything point-wise if something happens.


I thought of the same thing. I'm not aware of any option to buy insurance to reimburse miles or points in the event of cancellation for good cause maybe for the simple reason that no program has put miles or points at risk like this before. I would think such a program would be attractive, although I would prefer the simple route of charging a reasonable redeposit fee.


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## Anthony

I'm sure if there were a valid, documented hardship such as a medical or bereavement situation, you could call AGR to seek some compassionate discretion by an agent or supervisor. I believe Amtrak takes such issues into account for some paid travel situations as well.


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## the_traveler

True, but even without a compassionate agent or supervisor, you can get a voucher for what you paid. Not so with the 60K you "paid"! :angry:


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## crescent2

Travel insurance is a great idea, but I'm not aware of any that reimburses "points," because the insurer doesn't control the reward program. It would be complicated to assign a cash value to a given number of points, since the bucket prices are all over the place and the length of trips varies greatly for the same redemption. But I'm all for it! Or a redeposit fee. Losing all the points? I agree, that stinks!! Also concerns me re my trip next year.

And, I wouldn't want to depend on the odds of getting a "compassionate" agent. I know from recent experience that rewards programs vary greatly even when a death is involved. My husband died in September and I have since phoned to see if his points in several programs could be transferred to me. One reward program transferred the points but with an expiration date of 12/31/12, one transferred them with a reasonable fee, one would transfer them with a huge fee (but fortunately our Hilton timeshare later moved them with no fee), one (Delta Airlines) transferred them and waived their usual fee, and one (Amtrak, according to their website and this forum), would not have transferred them at all; they would have been lost! This involved a spouse's death, so I'm wondering how compassionate they would be for an illness, injury, or death in the family. Not liking this new rule...


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## Devil's Advocate

Anthony said:


> Points and dollars are very different animals, and Amtrak is certainly not alone in the travel industry when it treats them differently.


Amtrak is slowly adjusting _all_ forms of payment, including points, cash, and credit. Maybe you lose 10% or maybe you lose 100%, but in all cases you risk losing something if you're reserving sleeper tickets and that's *new*. But I suppose even losing hundreds of dollars or tens of thousands of points is still just neutral ho-hum news to some folks.



Anthony said:


> It's hard for a paid reservation to cost Amtrak anything.


It may cost them as much as 5% if you use a credit card, or even a debit card since Amtrak apparently processes everything as a credit transaction. And if you reversed that charge with a refund it may cost even more. So at least that loss has some connection with reality. But what exactly is costing Amtrak so much that they need to wipe all of your allocated points away entirely? Who else does that? Why can't Amtrak simply take 10% of your points away instead? Or charge you a fee to put them back like the airlines do?



Anthony said:


> AGR is still an extremely generous program...


Not outside the Northeast it's not. I've had status of some sort of status with four separate airlines but I've never once considered chasing Select or Select Plus because it's basically useless in 90% of the country. Even people who live in Chicago, which is among Amtrak's largest and busiest hubs, have to argue with the staff to get what they're rightfully due.



AlanB said:


> No, in the past you couldn't call up the 800 number once you were onboard to do an upgrade.


You could absolutely call the reservations desk and buy a whole new ticket, which is the same sort of "upgrade" you sound like you're talking about today. Then you'd get a boarding code for last minute purchases and have the conductor call the reservations desk at the next stop. Nobody would be expecting you to do that, but neither was their any rule against it, at least to my knowledge.



Anthony said:


> I'm sure if there were a valid, documented hardship such as a medical or bereavement situation, you could call AGR to seek some compassionate discretion by an agent or supervisor. I believe Amtrak takes such issues into account for some paid travel situations as well.


Wait, so we're supposed to verbally describe some official documentation of a hardship to a highly compassionate truth analyzing specialist over the phone who then determines that our needs are genuine based on our description? Sounds like you're just grasping at straws now.


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## Trogdor

Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).


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## AlanB

Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, in the past you couldn't call up the 800 number once you were onboard to do an upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> You could absolutely call the reservations desk and buy a whole new ticket, which is the same sort of "upgrade" you sound like you're talking about today. Then you'd get a boarding code for last minute purchases and have the conductor call the reservations desk at the next stop. Nobody would be expecting you to do that, but neither was their any rule against it, at least to my knowledge.
Click to expand...

No, that's not the same thing at all. Not even close!

First, if you were already on board the train, then you couldn't call to do anything at all. Maybe, if you knew that an unstaffed stop was coming up you could have called and made a new reservation and received that code and then played a game with the conductor. But you couldn't do that as of a staffed station, as you'd have needed to obtain real tickets.

Second, we come to your idea of buying a whole new ticket. That is NOT what's happening here. You are upgrading your current reservation with the agent. If you had called from a train to do an upgrade before eTix, you would have thrown away the railfare already paid. The phone agent would have had no way of knowing whether or not the conductor had already lifted your ticket. Therefore the phone agent would have had to setup a new reservation charging you for both the room and railfare, before they could give you the boarding code. This would have left you with a coach seat that you no longer needed, and paying anew for the railfare.

This is not what now happens. With eTicketing the phone agent can preserve the railfare and by taking that reservation and just adding the sleeper to it. And the agent can do that without regard to whether you are at a staffed station waiting to board, an unstaffed station, or actually onboard the train.

That is a huge difference!

Yes, it's a bummer that they can't and won't sell you the room at the low bucket anymore, but then you never got to take advantage of that anyhow, so nothing lost there.



Texas Sunset said:


> Anthony said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure if there were a valid, documented hardship such as a medical or bereavement situation, you could call AGR to seek some compassionate discretion by an agent or supervisor. I believe Amtrak takes such issues into account for some paid travel situations as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, so we're supposed to verbally describe some official documentation of a hardship to a highly compassionate truth analyzing specialist over the phone who then determines that our needs are genuine based on our description? Sounds like you're just grasping at straws now.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that the agent would provide a fax number or require that you email something or mail it.


----------



## AlanB

Trogdor said:


> Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).


Agreed! Or maybe a loss of 5% or 10% of the points as a penalty.


----------



## Everydaymatters

OK so now I'm really concerned. I recently booked a trip with all the points I have. The trip, if I'm able, will be in March. I am one of the elderly described above. After about six or seven weeks, I am still going to physical therapy for my back and I'm depending on the therapy to get me back to the point of being able to pull a suitcase and get up and down the Superliner stairs. So far it's a lot better.

So now if my back gets bad again, or some other health problem comes along, I'll lose all the points I've been saving for a long, long time. On good faith I used only my AGR card for every single purchase I've made. I do have several other credit cards I could have used, some of which have points that are exchangeable for cash.

Some of the points I am using for this trip were paid for with cash.

That's just not right. Not right at all.

Betty


----------



## jis

AlanB said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed! Or maybe a loss of 5% or 10% of the points as a penalty.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think Amtrak has gone a bit overboard on this one, and will eventually regret it.

Frankly, if I have to change plans and cancel an AGR trip within the 15 day interval I will be very very unlikely to call in the cancellation. Amtrak can sell it after they find me a no show if they can. I am hardly responsible for Amtrak's ability to to sell a piece of accommodation or not. I would be much more likely to call in a cancellation if I get most of my points back. With the current scheme there is absolutely zero reason to call in a cancellation within the forfeit period.

In this respect actually Amtrak has just become worse than most airlines. Sorry Anthony, I guess I disagree with you about the generosity specially when it applies to this change.


----------



## RRrich

I just put my AGR card way behind my Ultimate Rewards card in my wallet.


----------



## Ispolkom

RRrich said:


> I just put my AGR card way behind my Ultimate Rewards card in my wallet.


As long as Ultimate Rewards points can transfer to AGR, I think that the combination of Chase Sapphire Preferred and Chase Freedom is a far more lucrative way of accumulating AGR points than the actual AGR Mastercard. The only reason I haven't canceled my AGR card is the 5% rebate on AGR redemptions.

WRT the new cancellation policy, I'm with* jis*. If I don't get anything back for canceling, I'm not doing it.


----------



## rrdude

Yes, this does kind of suck for those of us who utilize AGR points, and play the "points game", and abide by not only the spirit but the letter of the law. (AGR's written rules)

However, Amtrak is trying to maximize revenue, we all "get that". But this Draconian policy of "......less then 15 days, and you are hosed........" That's gonna cause so much heartache and headaches, and ill will, I'd just guess (hope) that Amtrak will decide to implement what many posters here have suggested, either a percentage fee, or dollar cost to "Re-deposit" the points.

It behooves Amtrak to do so, so they can, (as I think JIS and others pointed out) then RE-Sell the room, maybe for _real money._

I'll pile on this thread: 100% loss of points? Well, I'm not going _out of my way _to call Amtrak to let them know. 10% penalty, or $100 charge? (say it was a $1,500 to $2,500 "value" trip) My fingers will be burning up the cell phone on-screen keyboard calling Amtrak.

And btw Amtrak, if you are implementing changes to your program, how about a little "honey" with the vinegar? Why not offer the ability to purchase on-board credits with points? (Done before-hand, and the code emailed to you) That way, I could burn off some points (They'd go off of Amtrak's books for accounting) and they would be "redeemed" on board for drinks, merchandise, or anything else Amtrak sells on board)

Let's hope the AGR Insider on FlyerTalk is listening to some of this.....


----------



## transit54

While I can understand Amtrak's position here, I don't like the policy. A cancelation penalty? No problem, I can buy into that. Even a cash cancelation fee would be fine with me. What I don't like is that if I had to cancel a trip for circumstances beyond my control, I'm screwed. If travel insurance was an option, I really wouldn't mind. But the reality is there's no way to ensure myself against uncontrollable situations, and that's what I don't like. Just give me an option to protect myself.

I have had to cancel an AGR reservation on short notice before - I was going to leave for a multi-day trip the day that the remnants of Hurricane Irene struck Vermont. I received a call the morning of that one of my employeer's facilities had flooded and I needed to come in. While they have been very generous in reimbursing me for canceled personal travel in the past, there's simply no way that they'd pay the cash cost of several days of sleeper travel for me. I think a 25% or 50% loss of points is reasonable. Or just be like the airlines and charge a $100 cancel fee or something to that extent.


----------



## rtabern

Trogdor said:


> Not that I have anything to say about the matter, but in my personal opinion, I'd think a redeposit fee would be a good idea. That way, the person would still (maybe) want to cancel, but Amtrak gets some cash out of the deal (and gets to resell the room).


Agreed!!!

My feelings are... whoever at AGR or Amtrak who wrote the new policy.... needs to be more specific about this change. My question is --- and I haven't seen this explained in the new policy very clearly yet is --- What if I booked a 2-zone roomette from Chicago to New York on the Cardinal for 20K points. And then, a few days out (less than 15 days)... a bedroom opens up. Can I call AGR and "upgrade" to the bedroom for an additional 20K points?? OR, with it being less than 15 days out -- would I have to just lose the 20K points for the roomette and spend 40K points on the bedroom?

Likewise, if I was only able to book a bedroom for 40K points (but really wanted just a roomette but none was available)... would I be allowed to "downgrade" and get my 20K points back... if a roomette opened up within the 15 days? By the way, this just happened to me when it came to the Cardinal. I wanted to travel on #50(11/10) CHI-WAS, but there was only a bedroom open at the time of booking on October 8th. Then, yesterday, I noticed a roomette opened... so I called back and moved from the bedroom to roomette... and got 20K points back. I don't think there is anything wrong with this or I should be penalizied.

Again, it seems like one of those Amtrak and AGR rules that isn't very thought about and leaves a little of wiggle room for interpretation by whoever you happen to get on the phone.


----------



## pennyk

Everydaymatters said:


> OK so now I'm really concerned. I recently booked a trip with all the points I have. The trip, if I'm able, will be in March. I am one of the elderly described above. After about six or seven weeks, I am still going to physical therapy for my back and I'm depending on the therapy to get me back to the point of being able to pull a suitcase and get up and down the Superliner stairs. So far it's a lot better.
> 
> So now if my back gets bad again, or some other health problem comes along, I'll lose all the points I've been saving for a long, long time. On good faith I used only my AGR card for every single purchase I've made. I do have several other credit cards I could have used, some of which have points that are exchangeable for cash.
> 
> Some of the points I am using for this trip were paid for with cash.
> 
> That's just not right. Not right at all.
> 
> Betty


Betty, I am right with you. I recently redeemed a majority of my points to travel cross country in April. Some of my points were purchased also. I would hate to lose all of my points if something came up at the last minute that would prevent me from traveling.


----------



## crescent2

I'm an easy going person, but I'm getting more worried (and steamed!) about this. I would be ok with a $100 or even $150 change fee, but to lose 25,000 AGR points because of an emergency, illness, bad weather, etc. is ridiculous! I usually purchase travel insurance, but insurance cannot return reward points, because it does not own any points. The AGR redemption represents the most expensive part of my trip.

What can we do to get Amtrak to reconsider this policy? If all forum members wrote (politely, of course) to Amtrak, would that get their attention? Who is the person with the decision making power on this?


----------



## VentureForth

Don't know if we would write Amtrak or AGR.

This is horrible.

I say, if you're going to lose ALL your points by cancelling within 15 days, DON'T. Just be a no-show. See how many of those until they figure out they're not going to resell cancelled AGR trips.


----------



## crescent2

Does anyone have the name and location of the Amtrak or AGR person with decision making power on this? I want to write a letter. This policy stinks and is certainly not the industry standard.


----------



## TimePeace

VentureForth said:


> Don't know if we would write Amtrak or AGR.
> 
> This is horrible.
> 
> I say, if you're going to lose ALL your points by cancelling within 15 days, DON'T. Just be a no-show. See how many of those until they figure out they're not going to resell cancelled AGR trips.


Yeah that will fix em.

Meanwhile, all those of you who are throwing away your AGR cards and declaring the value of points to be dead, pm me and I'll buy your points...


----------



## crescent2

It's not my intention to "get even" with Amtrak by letting them have an empty unresold sleeper. Revenge would not help me, and I'm not a vengeful person by nature. (Although I would not cancel until the last minute under the new policy, not from revenge, but on the very slim chance that circumstances might somehow change so that I could make the trip after all.) I want to protect my points by trying to convince them to have a less restrictive policy, such as a redeposit or reservation change fee similar to the airlines' programs.

I don't live near an area that has Amtrak service to any place except the Crescent's route. It is not easy for me to accumulate 25,000 points and I'll never be able to accumulate that many again. Like many others, I don't want to risk totally losing them due to circumstances beyond my control. The new policy is too harsh, and AGR and Amtrak need to be told that.


----------



## gatelouse

RRrich said:


> I just put my AGR card way behind my Ultimate Rewards card in my wallet.


Right there with you. My UR points, originally intended for transfer to AGR, will be going to UA or Hyatt if the sleeper cancellation policy isn't adjusted. I do hope AGR comes to its senses on this one.


----------



## RRrich

Amtrak states that if I cancel an ARG trip within 15 days I lose my points even thought I am hospitalized. What if Amtrak cancels my AGR trip fo some silly reason like Hurrican Sandy?


----------



## Railroad Bill

I would agree with Betty and Penny on their points made here.

We have had to cancel trips made with points because of my health issues or because a snowstorm has made it impossible to drive to Cleveland to catch a train there, or a vehicle breakdown, etc. 

There definitely needs to be a policy change that would allow one to pay a penalty fee or a % deposit of the points so that the entire 15,000-25,000, etc points would not be lost. Some of us would not be able to travel much on Amtrak without using points.

It seems as though the increase in bedroom and coach points, new cancellation policies, baggage requirements, e ticketing, etc have all been implemented without much input from their customers. Those of us who live in the hinterlands would like some consideration. :angry:


----------



## AlanB

I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards. I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.

And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

AlanB said:


> I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards.


Having a strongly negative view about something is not the same thing as panicking. If you think we're somehow misinterpreting Amtrak's intended meaning then by all means please enlighten us as to where we strayed from their actual policy. If we have the policy right then maybe you just need to accept that not everyone is going to see it as the same way you do.



AlanB said:


> I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.


So you want us to wait and see if AGR "clarifies" an already perfectly clear situation by implementing a policy that is unlikely to be revealed in public? How exactly is a secret solution supposed to clarify anything? Speaking of which, whose questions about life and death emergencies are you even responding to? Most of the concerns I've read seem to refer to typical ailments and other *routine* complications, not some sudden near death event that would presumably leave the loss of AGR points as the least of anyone's worries. I guess that's when Amtrak's secret solution is finally ready to help. When someone _almost_ dies you get to keep your points. Maybe. Yeah, thanks for that.



AlanB said:


> And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.


Again, whose questions are you even responding to with these random answers?


----------



## AlanB

Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards.
> 
> 
> 
> Having a strongly negative view about something is not the same thing as panicking. If you think we're somehow misinterpreting Amtrak's intended meaning then by all means please enlighten us as to where we strayed from their actual policy. If we have the policy right then maybe you just need to accept that not everyone is going to see it as the same way you do.
Click to expand...

No, putting away or hiding your card is panicking IMHO. Sorry if you don't like that or don't agree with that. Considering to not transfer points into AGR is IMHO, panicking. The new policy has only been announced and it is not yet in effect. People from Amtrak do read this forum. People from Amtrak do read and participate over at the Flyertalk forum. And I'm not talking about conductors or LSA and the like who thankfully do come here to participate in the forum and convey their knowledge. I'm talking about management level people, both mid & high level people.



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.
> 
> 
> 
> So you want us to wait and see if AGR "clarifies" an already perfectly clear situation by implementing a policy that is unlikely to be revealed in public? How exactly is a secret solution supposed to clarify anything?
Click to expand...

I meant that they may well not list the actual reasons for which they'd grant an exception to the rule, but that they might well make a statement that they will consider hardship situations. As already noted by Anthony, Amtrak does do that even now with paid reservation penalties. There is no list however of exactly what reasons might get the penalty waived.



Texas Sunset said:


> Speaking of which, whose questions about life and death emergencies are you even responding to? Most of the concerns I've read seem to refer to typical ailments and other *routine* complications, not some sudden near death event that would presumably leave the loss of AGR points as the least of anyone's worries. I guess that's when Amtrak's secret solution is finally ready to help. When someone _almost_ dies you get to keep your points. Maybe. Yeah, thanks for that.


Your sarcasm is not appreciated at all! I was simply urging people to take a deep breath; I was not suggesting that they shouldn't be upset. I'm not thrilled with these changes either.

And both Betty and June mentioned health issues, which is why I responded to that point!



Texas Sunset said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, whose questions are you even responding to with these random answers?
Click to expand...

Maybe you want to try reading!



RRrich said:


> Amtrak states that if I cancel an ARG trip within 15 days I lose my points even thought I am hospitalized. *What if Amtrak cancels my AGR trip fo some silly reason like Hurrican Sandy?*


----------



## Anderson

And in the department of unintended consequences, if I can't get my points back (or exchange reservations), guess what? I'm just going to no-show. Why? Because at some point, I'm not going to be charitable, I'm going to be irritated. Note that if there were a way for me to transfer the reservation to someone else, I'd still do that; I'd also be willing to cancel if there were a partial refund available. But for a total non-refund? To hell with that. I'd also note that Amtrak is seriously burning up passenger good will here...this probably also marks the last time I bother to correct _anything_ Amtrak errs on in my favor (such as those un-requested upgrade cards), at least with respect to AGR.

The odd thing here is that I wouldn't have an issue if they'd eased the point cost of a sleeper reservation upwards over the course of a few years (maybe doubling it over the course of 3-4 years with a series of staged increases). The effective value of points is really a bit on the high side compared to most programs out there (4-6 cents per point being fairly standard), resulting in rather absurd value feedback on some offers. Even going to a straight points/dollar value conversion at $.02/point outside of rule busters or something in that vein wouldn't really be the end of the world (and it would allow them to cram down a decent liability sitting on their books). Likewise, either a "point return fee" or a partial point penalty wouldn't be horrible, either.

Of course, you know what I'm /actually/ going to do now? Make my reservations with cash (or eVouchers) and then swap to AGR at the last minute and take a voucher back. I take the train enough that it's worthwhile to do so (I'll burn the voucher sooner or later, especially with the Norfolk loop I'll be able to run), and why jeopardize my points?

=========================

Moreover, I definitely want to see a clarification on this with respect to Amtrak-initiated cancellations and other "hiccups" (i.e. cancelled trains, missed connections that make the reserved accommodation unavailable, etc.). I know I'm not the only one who has been stuck with "mixed" trips of one kind or another (either with multiple reservations because of booking headaches or with part AGR and part paid reservations), but this just seems ripe for headaches to break out where Amtrak screws up one leg of a trip and it derails a vacation but they won't refund the "unattached" leg even if there was no way to attach the odd leg (i.e. mixed reservations). I would consider it a given (or a class-action suit waiting to happen) if they don't refund legs _they_ axe, but that doesn't mean there aren't other legs that can be screwed up.

Edit: I posted an irritated note on Amtrak's Facebook page (hint: I posted on Facebook. That says something right there.). Honestly, it would probably be worth at least as much putting a post drive up there as writing to management; the page has close to 275,000 likes. (Hint two: I'm advocating using Facebook for something. This is...it's not a first, but it's respectably close)


----------



## Jim G.

If I book a sleeper for 20,000 points and I have to cancel, I lose all my points. If I book a sleeper for 20,000 points and Amtrak cancels my train, do I get my 20,000 points back plus another 20,000 since THEY canceled, or is this just a one-sided "shake down".


----------



## jis

I bet it is just a one sided shakedown. Afterall Amtrak is really not any different from any other transportation bureaucracy.


----------



## PRR 60

AlanB said:


> I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath here and relax for a bit to see if AGR clarifies things better in the coming days, before everyone panics and throws away their AGR cards. I strongly suspect that AGR will have some sort of policy, which may or may not be revealed to us so as to keep people from taking advantage of said policy, that would allow agents to waive the loss of points for a cancelled reservation in the case of some medical emergency or God forbid the death of a family member.
> 
> And certainly if Amtrak cancels the train for some reason AGR would not penalize someone for that. That would be grossly unfair and I don't see them doing something like that.


I know you defend Amtrak to the Nth degree no matter what, but suggesting that this new policy is OK because you "strongly suspect" they will have some hidden policy that will allow exceptions at the discretion of agents is simply not acceptable. Even if that were true, I can't make travel decisions based on the hope that Amtrak has some undocumented, double-secret rule that allows someone to override the public policy if they feel like it.

Come on, Alan. Say it. This new policy stinks! Amtrak, in this case, is wrong! I know you want to. It will feel good.


----------



## PRR 60

What is interesting to me is that with both the paid fare refund policy and now the AGR award travel cancellation policy, Amtrak has hammered the long distance sleeper passengers far worse than any fare class. With paid travel, sleeper passengers can only get a 90% refund from the point the reservation is made, and cannot get any refund 14 days or less before the date of travel. At least with paid travel, you can get a voucher for full value toward future travel. Of course, we sadly know the new deal for AGR travel.

Compare that to Acela First Class. Both paid and AGR travel is fully refundable right up to the time of departure. Cancel a 10:00am Acela First Class trip at 9:55am and you get all your money or points back. Cancel a July 20 sleeper trip on July 7, and you get nothing back. What does that tell you about who Amtrak thinks is the most valuable passenger.


----------



## crescent2

I wasn't aware of the huge difference in cancellation policy (Acela vs sleeper) mentioned by PRR60. This makes me feel even worse! I do intend to write AGR and Amtrak about the new policy. Posting on FB couldn't hurt, either.

So, at present, the only (partial) way to try to protect your points is to pay for the reservation in cash, then change it to AGR points closer to departure time (but not "at the last minute," BEFORE 14 days out, which still gives zero protection for the last 15 days)? But you'll only get 90% of your money back? An e-voucher would do me no good because I would not ever have occasion to use it. GRRR

My HH points have transferred to AGR, but now I'm hesitant to make my reservations. Not liking this. Call this panic if you must, but had I known of this policy change before I transferred all those HH points, I probably would not have transferred them.  Too late now.

I am very pro-Amtrak, but this policy does stink and they need to hear about it from everyone who doesn't like it! (If there's anyone out there who does like it, I guess they need to hear from you, too, to be fair.)


----------



## crescent2

Just checked the regular forum and found one answer to my above question in Post #41:

"Doug Varn has been named General Manager for long-distance services."

I'm about to introduce myself to Mr. Varn for starters.


----------



## RRrich

All those points/miles that transfer 1:1 to AGR (UR, Starpoints, etc) will NOT be transferred until required. My AGR mastercard is no longer in my wallet.

If this is panicking, so be it but I find myself guided by two principles 1) Do not allow temporary inconveniences to cause you to suffer long-term consequences, and 2) What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander


----------



## calwatch

I think that a 10% deduction in points, equivalent to the penalty for a paid trip, would be fair. As for my trips, I am going to be more inclined to book even later than usual. Thus, instead of Amtrak selling that roomette at a high bucket, I may be taking the last one, and they get no paid revenue.


----------



## jis

RRrich said:


> All those points/miles that transfer 1:1 to AGR (UR, Starpoints, etc) will NOT be transferred until required. My AGR mastercard is no longer in my wallet.
> 
> If this is panicking, so be it but I find myself guided by two principles 1) Do not allow temporary inconveniences to cause you to suffer long-term consequences, and 2) What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander


I use my AGR Mastercard mostly for Amtrak related expenses only. Since I get Eqlite Qualifying Points for passing certain thresholds on my United President Plus Card, I tend to charge almost everything to that card, and it also has no foreign exchange fee, so is good for charging in foreign currency too, which I happen to do quite a bit of for various reasons. So no I am not chaning my behavior about anything as a result of this obviously ill advised move by Amtrak.


----------



## Blackwolf

Here is the letter I've sent:



> Dear Amtrak Guest Rewards,
> 
> Add me to the list of very concerned Amtrak Guest Rewards members. The new policy change that imposes a draconian penalty for having to cancel a sleeper reservation within a 15-day window of travel is unacceptable. The minimalist clarification that no difference will be calculated between a voluntary cancellation and one that is borne from true emergency on the customer's part is absolutely offending. I am far from alone in this feeling, and the numbers of detractors would be incredibly massive from likely every AGR member if all of them were aware of this new change. If you are looking to reduce the number of people who are willing to be members in the program, and in a round-a-bout way reduce the number of customers riding your system, this new policy being instituted is a very effective way of starting.
> 
> Especially when combined with the numerous other changes within the last 4 months.
> 
> My advice, and I sincerely hope there are willing ears to listing on AGR's side, is to drop the new policy. Loosing thousands of points, of which has likely taken years and many thousands of dollars of Amtrak spending to accumulate, because someone was forced to cancel a trip without any recourse is ridiculous. This is not the industry standard, and it makes a formerly attractive program quite the opposite now. It also penalizes the Long-Distance first class rider, something Amtrak should not be doing by any margin. I can completely sympathize that reducing the number of people suddenly canceling sleeper reservation trips without penalty is needed. May I recommend that, instead of forcing members to forfeit all of their points, that a 10% penalty be instituted? This could either be through points deducted, or through a percentage of the cash value of the room being canceled at the current price bucket in ARROW. Certainly less ideal than the no penalty system in effect until January 1st, but massively better than this troubling new policy being instituted.
> 
> Thank you for your attention into this matter. Coming from a dedicated supporter of the Amtrak system, I know you value hearing from your passengers and members. I hope that level heads will prevail, and a reconsideration can be made.


----------



## Bob Dylan

As a retired Government hand who spent many years in the DC Puzzle Factory, I am very familiar with how bad Policies such as this are arrived at! A "working Group" or "task force" (or whatever the current term is that they are using in WAS is?)comes up with a brilliant idea! Then lacking experienced, strong Leadership, such as existed (exists?)@ Amtrak , this ill advised policy is implemented! The biggest problem with this model of operation is that there is zero chance for feedback or input from the stakeholders/customers/clients until after these bad ideas become policy!

Possibly if enough Amtrak Customers utilize the available methods of communicating with 60 Mass , this Policy will be modified or even withdrawn and revamped allowing input from us? :help: (But don't bet the mortage on it!) Hopefully the new GM Mr. Varn (and other Senior managers) whom I m sure some of our members know, will be open to taking a look @ this ill advised policy! :unsure:


----------



## Ispolkom

Anderson said:


> Even going to a straight points/dollar value conversion at $.02/point outside of rule busters or something in that vein wouldn't really be the end of the world (and it would allow them to cram down a decent liability sitting on their books).


I've often wondered why AGR doesn't go for a points per dollar method for AGR awards, like Southwest Airlines' Rapid Rewards. It would get rid of the complaints that different agents quote different costs for the same trip and it would eliminate anomalies in pricing (why does New York-Chicago cost the same number of points as Chicago-Los Angeles-Seattle).

If most redemptions are one-zone coach, it shouldn't be hard to fix the ratio so that it's a wash for them. It would hurt me, personally, but I couldn't expect AGR to worry about the interests of someone who is devoted to gaming their system.



PRR 60 said:


> What is interesting to me is that with both the paid fare refund policy and now the AGR award travel cancellation policy, Amtrak has hammered the long distance sleeper passengers far worse than any fare class.


That makes sense to me. Riders in the Northeast Corridor and the Chicago area have other travel options, such as Megabus and airlines. If you're a long-distance sleeper passenger, like I am (probably 98% of my Amtrak travel is in a sleeper), Amtrak is the only game in town. The make things more restrictive for us, because they can.


----------



## AlanB

crescent2 said:


> Just checked the regular forum and found one answer to my above question in Post #41:
> 
> "Doug Varn has been named General Manager for long-distance services."
> 
> I'm about to introduce myself to Mr. Varn for starters.


June,

I rather suspect that Mr. Varn has anything to do with this policy at all and I'm not sure what he could do about it since he's the manage of long distance services, not AGR.

I think that you'd be far better served by writing to Amtrak's President Mr. Joseph Boardman and/or Mr. Michael Blakey the head of the AGR program. Both can be reached by simply writing to their attn at the general address for Amtrak.


----------



## AlanB

Ispolkom said:


> The make things more restrictive for us, because they can.


As already noted by Anthony, they didn't do it "just because they can"; they did it because it would appear that there are enough people taking advantage of the liberal policy and booking trips that they may or may not take and tying up valuable inventory. So we're all paying the price because some chose to abuse the system.

The question now is why did they need to bring a sledgehammer out to fix the problem when a tap hammer probably could fix the problem?


----------



## Anderson

The other thing Amtrak could have done is "stage" the refundability in two or three tiers (such as, say, 100% refundable up to 15 days, 80% 15 days-7 days, 50% refundable 7 days-24 hours, and 0% 24 hours and beyond). Basically...they could have done several different things that would've both been less drastic and less annoying, from a tiered non-refundability/non-exchangability system to a point return fee to just, you know, a major hike in the point cost for sleepers over the course of a few years. If it's a handful of users doing a nasty abuse of things, why not just limit the number of short notice LD point refunds you can get in a given year?

Edit: The other thing that I'm a bit annoyed at being missing is the lack of a 24-hour guaranteed "fix" window. _That_ is frustrating because of how many things can be involved in pulling a trip together. This is one area where I know VIA has a leg up on Amtrak with their booking system (though as I've notes, Amtrak's voucher policy is effectively the same for me).


----------



## Ispolkom

AlanB said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> 
> The make things more restrictive for us, because they can.
> 
> 
> 
> As already noted by Anthony, they didn't do it "just because they can"; they did it because it would appear that there are enough people taking advantage of the liberal policy and booking trips that they may or may not take and tying up valuable inventory. So we're all paying the price because some chose to abuse the system.
Click to expand...

You seem much more comfortable with moral labels than I. What does "liberal" or "abuse" mean to you? How is an abuse of the system to follow the rules, even if my actions do not allow Amtrak to maximize its revenue? Is it an abuse of the system that next week my AGR award begins at Wolf Point, the zone boundary, and not at my departure point further east? Is it an abuse of the system that I booked the trip back in March, before bedroom redemption costs went up?

More to the point, isn't the same behavior that is "abuse" when sleeper passengers do it just as prevalent with Acela tickets? Why are sleeper passengers singled out? Are they we an especially degenerate lot? Or is it the case that Acela has competition, and Amtrak doesn't have as free a hand in rectifying the perceived problems in its rewards program with Acela passengers as it does with those of us who ride sleepers far from 60 Massachusetts Ave? You seem to have data, so I'd love to know.



> The question now is why did they need to bring a sledgehammer out to fix the problem when a tap hammer probably could fix the problem?


Perhaps a sledgehammer wielded in flyover country "appears" like a tap hammer in 60 Massachusetts Avenue.


----------



## crescent2

Good for you, Blackwolf!

Thanks, Alan, for the names in Post #63. They will certainly receive letters, and I still intend to include Mr. Varn. LD is his "baby" so anything that affects LD ridership is of interest to him, and he likely has some influence with Mr. Boardman and Mr. Blakey.

I encourage others to let their feelings about this policy be known to those with decision-making authority or influence. If they aren't aware of a problem, they can't/won't fix it.


----------



## AlanB

June,

Actually since AGR probably pays Amtrak less money for rooms, or at least the low bucket price, Mr. Varn would probably be happier if AGR wasn't taking away rooms from customers paying directly for the rooms. I'm sure that he could sell those rooms for more than AGR is paying Amtrak for said rooms.

Regardless, I suspect that Mr. Varn being newly appointed to the post will be far too busy to really care about this matter. He's got his work cut out for him already just trying to deal with and improve the long distance service, rather than spending time on a matter that he has little control over.

I'm not saying don't write him; I just think that he'll have almost no influence, if any, on what happens.


----------



## Linda T

What irks me most about this policy is that I booked my Sept. '13 trip on election day. I was told in no uncertain terms that I would be able to cancel the trip right up to the time the train departs the station. So I spent 40,000 points (2-2 zone roomette redemptions), hopefully nothing will go wrong next September.

Today, I read on FB about this new policy, and that if we cancel within 15 days of travel we'll lose all our points. I called AGR and they assured me that I'd get my points back as long as I called before 9PM the day the train departs, so I asked the guy for his source -- then decided to check here. I found the original source and it clearly states "Any new or existing redemption..." Grrr... I obviously have every intention to take this trip -- I simply LOVE to be on the train. But like everyone else, there's always something that can happen at the last minute. When one needs to take the Cardinal to get just about anywhere, and one's traveling in a roomette, one can't wait till just before departure to buy a ticket.


----------



## Shanghai

I don't like the policy change but understand why the change is being made.

I would like to see a couple of exclusions like a death in family or serious illness.

I am currently in a situation where I must cancel a trip that I booked two months

ago (coast to coast & return all in sleeper accommodations) due to a death in

our family. It would be a nice jester if I could postpone and rebook the trip at

a later time rather than to completely lose my AGR points.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Shanghai said:


> I don't like the policy change but understand why the change is being made.
> 
> I would like to see a couple of exclusions like a death in family or serious illness.
> 
> I am currently in a situation where I must cancel a trip that I booked two months
> 
> ago (coast to coast & return all in sleeper accommodations) due to a death in
> 
> our family. It would be a nice jester if I could postpone and rebook the trip at
> 
> a later time rather than to completely lose my AGR points.


Sorry to hear of your loss.


----------



## dlagrua

I can understand Amtrak's desire to maximize revenue but the firm non-cancellation policy for AGR trips within a 15 day window needs to be changed. In many cases travelers encounter unexpected circumstances that cause trips to be canceled. Many of us here have elderly parents. In the likelihood that they take seriously ill or pass away; can anyone blame us for canceling? My point is that there should be some exceptions for travelers who need to cancel AGR trips under special circumstances like sickness, and family emergencies.

Accepting that the new cancellation policy holds firm, and that the AGR trip can be transferred (didn't know that it could), I suggest that we set up a new forum area for canceled and available AGR trips. Some trips require 30,000 points and that represents a large potential loss. Rather than give them away and have the member lose everything, the trips could be offered at a minimal cost so at least the ticket owner is not faced with a total loss. If AGR members were offered even 1/2 of the standard low bucket ticket price it may result in better situation for everyone. How does everyone feel about this?


----------



## PRR 60

dlagrua said:


> I can understand Amtrak's desire to maximize revenue but the firm non-cancellation policy for AGR trips within a 15 day window needs to be changed. In many cases travelers encounter unexpected circumstances that cause trips to be canceled. Many of us here have elderly parents. In the likelihood that they take seriously ill or pass away; can anyone blame us for canceling? My point is that there should be some exceptions for travelers who need to cancel AGR trips under special circumstances like sickness, and family emergencies.
> 
> Accepting that the new cancellation policy holds firm, and that the AGR trip can be transferred (didn't know that it could), I suggest that we set up a new forum area for canceled and available AGR trips. Some trips require 30,000 points and that represents a large potential loss. Rather than give them away and have the member lose everything, the trips could be offered at a minimal cost so at least the ticket owner is not faced with a total loss. If AGR members were offered even 1/2 of the standard low bucket ticket price it may result in better situation for everyone. How does everyone feel about this?


Selling AGR award travel violates AGR rules and, if caught, the member who sold the trip can have their account cancelled and all remaining points forfeited. That is the same policy as exists with airline programs, and airlines use some pretty sophisticated tools to find suspicious transactions. I have to admit that losing all points for cancelled travel makes the risk of selling more attractive, but I am sure that AU would not support such an exchange forum. I'm not even sure that AGR award trips can have the passenger name changed.

I am hopeful that AGR will reconsider this policy. When they find out how far they are out of the norm set by the airline programs, I hope that they will adjust things to be more competitive. A $100 redeposit fee for cancellations or changes less than 15 days prior to travel would be fine with me (and, by the way, apply that to all travel, not just sleeper). I am willing to accept some risk. All I want is flexibility to make changes if needed without having to depend on the mercy of an agent. Losing all points for the trip is a non-starter for me. This policy, if it stands, will end my long distance travel on Amtrak, and will effectively end the usefulness of AGR in my travel and vacation planning.


----------



## crescent2

Alan, thanks. I'm still going to write all three of them. If for no other reason, he needs to know that Amtrak riders do pay attention to policy and know what the industry standards are. A little reminder that customer satisfaction is important can't hurt.

Shanghai, I'm so sorry for your loss. Prayers for you and your family.

diagrua: I didn't know an AGR redemption could be transferred to another person, either. Are you sure? If so, I think your idea is a good one. Even a slim chance of the trip matching another person's need is better than none. But Amtrak really needs to CHANGE their policy!

Edit:

PRR60: I wrote my reply before yours posted. I figured the awards would not be transferrable. Let's see if Amtrak/AGR can be persuaded to change this ridiculous policy.


----------



## AlanB

AGR Insider over at FT has been heard from regarding this change in policy.

You can view the reply here.


----------



## Anderson

Yeah, I'm not exactly tickled with that response, knowing the wide range of agents. If there were set metrics that we're informed of, I'd go for it. But for what amounts to "trust us"? Nope, not buying.

Moreover, there's no clear explanation of why they're being so blasted punitive about this, anyway, particularly with unintended consequences such as everyone's collective inclination to no-show rather than cancel.


----------



## pennyk

Thanks Alan.


----------



## the_traveler

I agree that "case-by-case" translates to "based on the agent's mood that day"! :blink:


My mother died - No problem

My daughter is sick and in the hospital - No can do

I was stuck in a traffic jam on the way to the train - Tough

I was just fired from my job - Take a 60,000 AGR point loss

I was laid off for the past 5 months and can't find a new job - I'll give you your 35K back

I just got hired and start the job next week - Better start earning those 40K back

I booed this trip 8 months ago, but my boss just cancelled my vacation - Too bad about those 120K


if the rules were in black and white, or if there were a fee to redeposit them or a cancellation fee, I could accept it. But not on the whim of the agent's mood!


----------



## jis

> We do value our loyal members and customers and it was not our intent to give you the impression that we don't. We know that in order to have enough points to redeem for a trip in a sleeper, you have spent a lot on Amtrak travel or on the AGR credit card. Your business is important to us and we want you to continue to redeem your points for sleepers. This policy is not being introduced to make redemption travel more difficult for you. If you find that your plans change and the deadline has passed, please be assured that all extenuating circumstances will be considered on a case-by-case basis and we will do our best to accommodate your request to modify your itinerary or refund your points without penalty.


Pardon my insolence in stating that this is an example of lame corporate speak coming out of a bureaucracy that is unwilling to actually create a reasonable watertight policy, and instead leaves too much to the discretion of agents. Now we know why Amtrak is forever inconsistent in everything. Clearly its mangement has no clue about being consistent and what it takes in terms of structuring policies to make it so. That stuff is really not even worth the paper it is written on IMHO, specially when an obvious watertight policy that does not require across the board exception handling is available ready to hand.

If Amtrak had an impeccable reputation of good customer relations it would be one thing. But given Amtrak's track record in that department, which is less than stellar, one is now supposed to put ones fate in their hands and have faith that at they will be reasonable? Really? I suppose they really also have no idea how bad and untrustworthy they are. Oh well....


----------



## AlanB

Anderson said:


> particularly with unintended consequences such as everyone's collective inclination to no-show rather than cancel.


This is not a threat at all to them. Their goal isn't to ensure that they get double the revenue for the room, although I'm sure that they wouldn't mind; their goal is to ensure that they get revenue for that room.

I'm not saying that people should or should not cancel if they know that they can't take the trip. That's up to each person to decide for themselves. But again, it is no threat to AGR. They don't care about the room going empty; they only care that they got revenue.

In fact, were ARROW sophisticated enough to track the resale of the room, I'd bet that they'd be willing to refund the points if indeed they were able to resell the room. Alas, ARROW can't deal with that.


----------



## Ispolkom

I've always regarded AGR as the most entertaining of frequent traveler programs. AGR Insider's latest effort just proved it. The last sentence is pure poetry:



> please be assured that all extenuating circumstances will be considered on a case-by-case basis and we will do our best to accommodate your request


Given AGR's well-established inability to consistently apply whatever rules they already have (since we're assured they actually have rules), I simply have no idea what Ms. Radke means.

This new cancellation policy adds a whole new level of quantum indeterminancy to the program. Not only can you not be sure of what long-distance trip you can book, and at what cost, but now if you have a last minute cancellation, you don't know if you'll get any of your points back.



AlanB said:


> They don't care about the room going empty; they only care that they got revenue.


I've said repeatedly that AGR is like Honey Badger. He don't care. I'm glad others agree, though Ms. Radke might claim otherwise.

I'm fortunate, though, in that I've never had to cancel an AGR trip within two weeks of travel. It allows me to be amused, rather than disgusted. I can understand other reactions, though, and offer my sympathy.


----------



## TimePeace

Anderson said:


> everyone's collective inclination to no-show rather than cancel.


Not everyone. I for one don't play the fox-in-the-manger game.

All the talk of illness and death exceptions ... maybe someone's mom just died and the train they need to get on is sold out - "well I'll be damned if I am gonna cancel a reservation if I don't get back my points!"


----------



## Jim G.

Yesterday I sent an email to Amtrak expressing my disappointment of their new policy concerning the loss of points when a sleeper reservation is canceled less than 15 days prior to departure. Today I received a response stating that customer input was a determing factor regarding Amtrak policy and my concern would be forwarded to the appropriate persons setting policies. Perhaps if more people expressed their feelings this might be reversed.


----------



## Tumbleweed

Aw what the heck...just keep a close eye on Amsnag and be flexible.... h34r:


----------



## the_traveler

If you're using Amsnag, you are paying buckets and you can get your money back, even if as a voucher. If using AGR, you don't care about buckets, and you may or may not get your points back.


----------



## Tumbleweed

the_traveler said:


> If you're using Amsnag, you are paying buckets and you can get your money back, even if as a voucher. If using AGR, you don't care about buckets, and you may or may not get your points back.


but if you watch amsnag you may be able to quickly book an alternate AGR date if need be.....


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I guess I made someone upset by pointing out that straw men arguments are both pointless and dishonest. I guess if you can't defend yourself with honesty you can simply erase the posts of those who disagree with you.


----------



## gatelouse

the_traveler said:


> I agree that "case-by-case" translates to "based on the agent's mood that day"! :blink:
> 
> 
> My mother died - No problem
> 
> My daughter is sick and in the hospital - No can do
> 
> I was stuck in a traffic jam on the way to the train - Tough
> 
> I was just fired from my job - Take a 60,000 AGR point loss
> 
> I was laid off for the past 5 months and can't find a new job - I'll give you your 35K back
> 
> I just got hired and start the job next week - Better start earning those 40K back
> 
> I booed this trip 8 months ago, but my boss just cancelled my vacation - Too bad about those 120K
> 
> 
> if the rules were in black and white, or if there were a fee to redeposit them or a cancellation fee, I could accept it. But not on the whim of the agent's mood!


My favorite post of the week! Exactly my sentiment, and pretty good comedy to boot.

All we're asking for are clear, published rules that are fair both to Amtrak and the customer. Is that too much to ask?


----------



## Ispolkom

gatelouse said:


> All we're asking for are clear, published rules that are fair both to Amtrak and the customer. Is that too much to ask?


Well, yes. Apparently it is too much to ask. Given the double-secret, change on a moment's notice, I'd-tell-you-but-then-I'd-have-to-kill-you nature of AGR long-distance sleeper redemption rules, I can't imagine that AGR will be less opaque with regard to allowable cancellations.

But that's the fun of AGR. Every once in a while I roll my saving throw and I get a great deal on an AGR redemption. Works for me. And, of course, if you like long-distance train travel, it's the only game in town.

ETA: I'm out of here. I'm off on a two-week, 7500 mile trip using two one-zone awards and a few paid-for segments, all booked before the increase in bedroom redemption rates back in April. I'm sure there are those who will consider me an abuser of the system, but they'll probably be sitting at home, while I'll be swilling champagne and eating North Dakota caviar as the Empire Builder bucks a winter storm on the Hi Line.


----------



## jb64

Have fun lspolkom!

I had just finished booking a six zone cross-country trip and this change in policy was announced the next day. The real kicker is that I purposely picked slightly higher priced hotel rooms so that I could have the more flexible cancellation policies on Priceline. Should have saved my money and not bothered.

Because my trip is broken up in a couple of places, it is actually booked as three different trips, not connected. So, I guess one segment might get refunded for extenuating circumstances but segments two and three may not, pending the discretion of the agent?

Seems like a poorly thought-out policy to me.


----------



## colobok

The new policy SUCKS!

What if I got sick and can't take the trip? Will it be possible to move my trip to another date?

And I understand there is no any insurance you can buy to cover that case?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

colobok said:


> The new policy SUCKS! What if I got sick and can't take the trip? Will it be possible to move my trip to another date?
> 
> And I understand there is no any insurance you can buy to cover that case?


Well, you could wait to see if the sickness kills you or someone close to you. If it does you get your points back. Just don't tell anyone you know about this special rule as it's suppose to be a secret.


----------



## jis

colobok said:


> The new policy SUCKS!
> 
> What if I got sick and can't take the trip? Will it be possible to move my trip to another date?
> 
> And I understand there is no any insurance you can buy to cover that case?


If you say pretty please in a way that impresses the agent that you speak to you may get it, otherwise not, but apparently Amtrak's policy stands in effect stating that you shall not unless the agent feels like it.


----------



## colobok

Isn't it a violation of some Federal regulations?

I don't believe that total loss of paid value can be allowed by law in case of illness or other troubles.


----------



## jis

Well Amtrak's position is that they will treat such cases sympathetically, which they very well might. But the fact that they won;t tell exactly what those cases are, is what bugs me, since it makes it impossible for me to estimate a loss probability. I have no idea how to model the random thought process of an Amtrak agent to arrive at any meaningful conclusion.


----------



## PackerBacker

All good things must end. When United Milage Plus first started, it was a great program that allowed instant redemption with no restrictions. Then slowly over the years,the miles required increased and benifits were revised downward, to where it became difficult and annoying to use. Guest Rewards has followed the airlines down the same path, except it has happened a lot faster. In the coures of only a few months, we had a sustantial increase in points required for a reward, and now this Draconian cancelation policy. I'm sure this won't be the last of the suprises we have in store.


----------



## AlanB

Nothing exciting, and no details that people would really want & like, but AGR Insider has posted again on this issue; saying "I've been following the discussion on the redemption policy changes and wanted to advise everyone that we are taking your comments and concerns very seriously. I hope to have a response to your feedback in the next few days."

But at least it appears that they are at least considering things and what everyone has had to say.


----------



## TimePeace

AlanB said:


> Nothing exciting, and no details that people would really want & like, but AGR Insider has posted again on this issue; saying "I've been following the discussion on the redemption policy changes and wanted to advise everyone that we are taking your comments and concerns very seriously. I hope to have a response to your feedback in the next few days."
> 
> But at least it appears that they are at least considering things and what everyone has had to say.


Where is this AGR Insider? If it's not a public site, will you post any further response from them?


----------



## AlanB

MaineRider,

It's a public forum called FlyerTalk. It was really started for those who fly a lot and were trying to maximize points and help other's meander through the pitfalls and problems of the various airline programs. But they've since expanded their scope to include hotels, Amtrak, and other FF type programs. AGR Insider is someone who works at Amtrak headquarters right in the office of the top manager for AGR.

You can follow the topic on this particular issue over at FT if you wish by clicking here.

I of course will also continue to relay info and/or link to it as it is posted.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

I saw that preliminary update as well. I think AGR is possibly concerned about diluting their loyalty program to the point that it would be so far out of line of the airlines that it potentially discourages continued participation. I would advise anyone who wishes to have any input on this issue to post your views on Flyertalk's AGR forum.


----------



## AlanB

Texas Sunset said:


> I saw that preliminary update as well. I think AGR is possibly concerned about diluting their loyalty program to the point that it would be so far out of line of the airlines that it potentially discourages continued participation.


Yes, that may be part of it too. But AGR headquarters didn't just decide to join FT to post Rah Rah announcements. They joined up to monitor issues and to provide a way to report major issues without going through the rank & file of the AGR staff. I've no doubt that they saw the concerns of many and even the outrage of some over this issue and decided that perhaps they needed to take a second look at things.

Vicky Radke isn't some secretary or supervisor of the AGR phone group. She is second in command at AGR, behind only Michael Blakey. Put another way, if the buck doesn't stop there, then really only Joseph Boardman is left.



Texas Sunset said:


> I would advise anyone who wishes to have any input on this issue to post your views on Flyertalk's AGR forum.


It couldn't hurt.


----------



## Anthony

AGR Insider on FlyerTalk also accepts private messages for member problems where the normal support channels have failed. Not a bad resource, although I wouldn't bother them with mundane issues that can be resolved by a phone agent.


----------



## Anderson

I'm registering (or, more properly, _trying_ to register and getting caught in an over-active anti-spam system) to make a comment myself.


----------



## Blackwolf

I have some news to report on the grounds that AGR is very aware of the heart-ache amid this new policy, and is disseminating this awareness down to the individual phone agents.

I made an AGR redemption for three-zone roomette for my upcoming trip from Washington DC back home to Sacramento in December last night. At the finalization of the transaction, the agent quite clearly said with some pride in her voice: "_And, Mr. Blackwolf, you are most likely very familiar with the Amtrak Guest Rewards program and its benefits. I would like to remind you that, unlike most redemption travel these days, if you should somehow need to cancel your trip you are fully capable of doing so with no penalty. You will get ALL of your points back if you call AGR and cancel up and until your first train leaves the station._"

And since there was a small issue with the reservation made (wrong train!!) I needed to call back again this morning. After fixing the issue, this new agent also made a very big deal about being able to cancel your reservation right up until departure.

This makes it crystal clear to me. AGR knows we (Amtrak riders and AGR members) are peeved with this upcoming policy change. And there might even be a chance of it disappearing just as quickly as it was announced if there continues to be trouble. My advice? WRITE/CALL/EMAIL AGR!!! Keep the pressure on!


----------



## Everydaymatters

I've been wondering why Amtrak Insider is on Flyer Talk and is not on *this* Amtrak forum????

Just saying....


----------



## Anderson

Because in terms of aggregate size, FT is far larger than AU. Just a hunch.


----------



## AlanB

Everydaymatters said:


> I've been wondering why Amtrak Insider is on Flyer Talk and is not on *this* Amtrak forum????
> 
> Just saying....


Flyertalk actually has a history of "insiders" from hotel chains & airlines doing this type of thing. I'm not sure if FT actually contacts the various programs or if its more a word of mouth thing (perhaps talked about at conferences, if there are any). So my guess is that the AGR people learned about FT via one of those methods and decided that it was a good idea.

Besides, even though AGR Insider may not be posting here, I know for a fact that some senior people at Amtrak headquarters do check in here to read stuff. So it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that someone has mentioned this topic to AGR and that they are also monitoring this thread. That's why I said it couldn't hurt to post at FT, but I'm pretty sure that they're aware of what's been said over here too.


----------



## PRR 60

Blackwolf said:


> ...
> 
> I made an AGR redemption for three-zone roomette for my upcoming trip from Washington DC back home to Sacramento in December last night. At the finalization of the transaction, the agent quite clearly said with some pride in her voice: "_And, Mr. Blackwolf, you are most likely very familiar with the Amtrak Guest Rewards program and its benefits. I would like to remind you that, unlike most redemption travel these days, if you should somehow need to cancel your trip you are fully capable of doing so with no penalty. You will get ALL of your points back if you call AGR and cancel up and until your first train leaves the station._"
> 
> ...


I wonder what they say for January sleeper reservations?


----------



## AlanB

PS. One other thing, Flyertalk is a site for those who follow, earn, want to learn, and/or discuss all things related to Frequent Flyer type programs. AGR is a Frequent Flyer program. They're not a railfan's program, they don't care about operational stuff for Amtrak, or the next route that should be restored. AGR cares about point redemption programs which is what Flyertalk is all about.

So it makes sense for them to be in a place where frequent flyers and those looking for points programs would go. The fact that AGR Insider often passes on regular Amtrak things to the powers that be is extra nice, but again their focus is on mileage programs.


----------



## Anthony

We actually had a thread recently here on AU where people debated the merit of having an official Amtrak presence on this forum, and the overwhelming consensus was "no." Although the FT AGR subforum is less busy than the AU AGR subforum, the longstanding FT tradition of hosting official "insider" accounts made it easy to accommodate the AGR Insider, I think.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Anthony said:


> We actually had a thread recently here on AU where people debated the merit of having an official Amtrak presence on this forum, and the overwhelming consensus was "no." Although the FT AGR subforum is less busy than the AU AGR subforum, the longstanding FT tradition of hosting official "insider" accounts made it easy to accommodate the AGR Insider, I think.


I was surprised that the vast majority of respondents were completely against any sort of official Amtrak representation. So many threads here start with good questions or interesting problems but end with few if any official answers. I've seen how other sites that allow official contacts are able to nip minor controversies in the bud before they become long convoluted strings of endless confusion. I figured both Amtrak and AU would benefit from that sort connection. Instead I found out that the majority of members apparently think we're still under the radar. Even if that were true long ago any Amtrak related Google query in the last several years would have put this site front and center on their screen. Not to mention that there are already several unofficial connections between AU and Amtrak.


----------



## AlanB

A new update from AGR Insider, and they're going to postpone enforcing any changes until March, while they take more time to consider the policy and any potential changes.

.

You can view the entire post here


----------



## Rail Freak

AlanB said:


> A new update from AGR Insider, and they're going to postpone enforcing any changes until March, while they take more time to consider the policy and any potential changes.
> 
> .
> 
> You can view the entire post here


Thanx Alan & a Special Thanx to Mr Blakey


----------



## Blackwolf

Fantastic news! I knew the emphasis placed on the _current_ policy when making my redemption reward had to have meant something. Also, my letters through Snail Mail made it to their respective destinations, as I received two phone calls this afternoon. The first was from AGR agent Rachelle who called to explain pretty much what Mr. Blakely's FT post said. The second? From the office of Mr. Varn, the new head of Amtrak's Long Distance Services. Yup! Sent a letter to him too, and while it was a simple conversation with a secretary stating that my letter had been received and read, it was good to know it had not simply been thrown into the trash can.

AGR may be like Honey Badger. But apparently, even Honey Badger can care when enough noise is made! Good job, everyone!


----------



## Guest

I only heard about this change by stumbling onto this thread. I don't remember receiving any notification directly from AGR about this change.

This would truly lessen the value of the AGR program and especially the credit card for me.

I would not object to a point or cash fee to redeposit my points, but total loss of them makes my loyalty to the program almost non-existent.

If they don't modify this rule, I can say that I would not sit on hold for 20-30 minutes and use up my precious cell plan minutes to cancel my reservation as I have done previously. Instead, I would just wait and see if there was a chance I could make the trip, or add someone else to the reservation who can. If not, so be it.


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## Bob Dylan

^_^ Im not on Facebook but I LIKE this! Hope everyone gives AGR their Feedback whether on Flyer Talk or Directly! I personally wouldnt have any problem having the Cancellation Policy be in Line with the Paid Reservation Policy but YMMV!


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## Railroad Bill

The temporary change of policy is certainly a refreshing response from Amtrak Guest Rewards officials. It would seem that the original policy was perhaps a trial balloon to see if anyone cared. Now that it is evident that most of us are very concerned over the stringent policy, hopefully all can find a solution that will benefit Amtrak and the AGR community. 

Perhaps AGR might consider a graduated penalty policy that would take 10% of the points for a first cancellation within 15 days, 25% on the second, 50% third, etc.

In that scenario, one would need to decide whether to use up your 10% grace cancellation and therefore move to the next level on any future cancellations within that 15 day window.

This may be too much of a hassle for the Amtrak computers :wacko: but it would certainly be an incentive for those persons termed _habitual offenders _to be more responsible when making cancellations, while protecting those of us with less than normal stomachs 

Just a thought for consideration


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## vagabond

I booked an AGR reservation a few days ago on the Sunset Limited for late January and was informed of this new policy. I asked if I could still change (not cancel) the reservation within 15 days and was told yes. Begs the question ... just change the reservation to say 2 months later then cancel after a few days?


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## Anthony

vagabond said:


> I booked an AGR reservation a few days ago on the Sunset Limited for late January and was informed of this new policy. I asked if I could still change (not cancel) the reservation within 15 days and was told yes. Begs the question ... just change the reservation to say 2 months later then cancel after a few days?


The policy was rescinded by AGR pending further review. Who told you the policy was still in effect?


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## vagabond

Anthony said:


> vagabond said:
> 
> 
> 
> I booked an AGR reservation a few days ago on the Sunset Limited for late January and was informed of this new policy. I asked if I could still change (not cancel) the reservation within 15 days and was told yes. Begs the question ... just change the reservation to say 2 months later then cancel after a few days?
> 
> 
> 
> The policy was rescinded by AGR pending further review. Who told you the policy was still in effect?
Click to expand...

 I called AGR to book my trip and was told about the new policy "because your trip is after January 1, 2013". Sorry I did not read all pages of this thread to learn the policy was rescinded ... apparently my AGR rep didn't know either.


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## Anthony

vagabond said:


> Anthony said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vagabond said:
> 
> 
> 
> I booked an AGR reservation a few days ago on the Sunset Limited for late January and was informed of this new policy. I asked if I could still change (not cancel) the reservation within 15 days and was told yes. Begs the question ... just change the reservation to say 2 months later then cancel after a few days?
> 
> 
> 
> The policy was rescinded by AGR pending further review. Who told you the policy was still in effect?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I called AGR to book my trip and was told about the new policy "because your trip is after January 1, 2013". Sorry I did not read all pages of this thread to learn the policy was rescinded ... apparently my AGR rep didn't know either.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Sorry my message was a bit brief.


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## AlanB

And now as promised by AGR Insider, the update on the policy change:



> We promised to follow up with you regarding our policy decision for cancellations of sleeping car redemption travel. We have carefully considered the various viewpoints and concerns raised' date=' and will not be making any further changes to the policy at this time. Sleeping car redemption reservations may continue to be cancelled prior to departure for a full redeposit of points. Effective January 1, 2013, all Amtrak redemption travel (not just sleeping car) must be cancelled prior to departure in order for points to be returned.
> Additionally, we will begin strictly enforcing the existing Amtrak policy prohibiting duplicate and impossible bookings. This policy remains in effect for all Amtrak travel.
> 
> As always, we appreciate your feedback and your business. Thank you for your continued membership in Amtrak Guest Rewards.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Michael Blakey
> 
> Sr. Director, Loyalty & CRM
> 
> Vicky Radke
> 
> Program Director, Amtrak Guest Rewards


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amtrak-guest-rewards/1404690-award-policy-changes-re-cancellation-no-board-upgrades-4.html#post20052889


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## JayPea

Aw, shucks! You mean all the ranting, raving, fist - waving, not to mention bitching, and moaning, was all wasted?  . Seriously, that's very good news. Gives me faith that there are some organizations out there that actually listen to customers. Kudos to AGR!


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## Devil's Advocate

Big props to AGR for reconsidering their decision and siding with their customers. I have absolutely no problem with Amtrak going after chronic abusers of the system while allowing those of us who play by the rules to retain our good faith exemptions in writing. I would advise folks to remember this reversal the next time someone says that consumer feedback never works. If not for outspoken consumers willing to put their mouth where their money is, much of the loyalty system we take for granted today would have been diluted or lost many years ago.


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## PRR 60

JayPea said:


> Aw, shucks! You mean all the ranting, raving, fist - waving, not to mention bitching, and moaning, was all wasted?  . Seriously, that's very good news. Gives me faith that there are some organizations out there that actually listen to customers. Kudos to AGR!


Not wasted. That is what resulted in the change. I'm glad sanity prevailed.


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## JayPea

PRR 60 said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aw, shucks! You mean all the ranting, raving, fist - waving, not to mention bitching, and moaning, was all wasted?  . Seriously, that's very good news. Gives me faith that there are some organizations out there that actually listen to customers. Kudos to AGR!
> 
> 
> 
> Not wasted. That is what resulted in the change. I'm glad sanity prevailed.
Click to expand...

Oh, I know. I was just having some fun  . For the record, I did contact AGR myself, letting them know I was unhappy with the proposed changes. As I said previously, it's great to know AGR actually listens to their customers, in this case anyway.


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## Ryan

Glad to see my faith in AGR wasn't misplaced.


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## Steve4031

What are "impossible bookings"?


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## AlanB

Steve4031 said:


> What are "impossible bookings"?


Things like booking the 4 PM Acela out of DC, along with the 5 PM & 6 PM Acela out of DC. Or booking the Empire Builder Chicago to Seattle on Monday and again on either Tuesday or Wednesday, where clearly if you caught the Monday train you cannot then catch one of the other trains.


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## TimePeace

Wait - you mean the sky _isn't _falling?

Darn. There go the chances of those who were all done with AGR forever giving away their points to folks like me who didn't see it as the end of the (AGR) world.


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## Devil's Advocate

AlanB said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are "impossible bookings"?
> 
> 
> 
> Things like booking the 4 PM Acela out of DC, along with the 5 PM & 6 PM Acela out of DC. Or booking the Empire Builder Chicago to Seattle on Monday and again on either Tuesday or Wednesday, where clearly if you caught the Monday train you cannot then catch one of the other trains.
Click to expand...

Those are examples of DUPLICATE bookings. Impossible bookings are unique enough to not break the duplicate rule but are still nonetheless impossible. For instance, booking Chicago to Seattle on Monday with another separate booking of New York to Miami on Tuesday. There is no possibility that the same person can complete both trips as ticketed even though they are not duplicates.


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## AlanB

Devil said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are "impossible bookings"?
> 
> 
> 
> Things like booking the 4 PM Acela out of DC, along with the 5 PM & 6 PM Acela out of DC. Or booking the Empire Builder Chicago to Seattle on Monday and again on either Tuesday or Wednesday, where clearly if you caught the Monday train you cannot then catch one of the other trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those are examples of DUPLICATE bookings. Impossible bookings are unique enough to not break the duplicate rule but are still nonetheless impossible. For instance, booking Chicago to Seattle on Monday with another separate booking of New York to Miami on Tuesday. There is no possibility that the same person can complete both trips as ticketed even though they are not duplicates.
Click to expand...

No, that's not entirely correct either. While I did indeed include the description for duplicate in my post, namely the Acela example, I also included the "impossible"description in my post. I quote from the Amtrak website:



> *Impossible bookings* are reservations on trains for which it is impossible for the passenger to travel on both or all, such as a bedroom Seattle - Chicago on two consecutive days, or two separate reservation records between which a connection is not possible.


So my example for the EB is indeed an "impossible booking."


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## Bob Dylan

Good News and Thanks to AGR Insider and the folks @ AGR that have Common Sense! (It's Rare in Washington!)


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## colobok

Devil said:


> What are "impossible bookings"?
> 
> 
> 
> Things like booking the 4 PM Acela out of DC, along with the 5 PM & 6 PM Acela out of DC. Or booking the Empire Builder Chicago to Seattle on Monday and again on either Tuesday or Wednesday, where clearly if you caught the Monday train you cannot then catch one of the other trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those are examples of DUPLICATE bookings. Impossible bookings are unique enough to not break the duplicate rule but are still nonetheless impossible. For instance, booking Chicago to Seattle on Monday with another separate booking of New York to Miami on Tuesday. There is no possibility that the same person can complete both trips as ticketed even though they are not duplicates.
Click to expand...

So what are they going to do with those duplicated or impossible bookings?


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## AmtrakBlue

colobok said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are "impossible bookings"?
> 
> 
> 
> Things like booking the 4 PM Acela out of DC, along with the 5 PM & 6 PM Acela out of DC. Or booking the Empire Builder Chicago to Seattle on Monday and again on either Tuesday or Wednesday, where clearly if you caught the Monday train you cannot then catch one of the other trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those are examples of DUPLICATE bookings. Impossible bookings are unique enough to not break the duplicate rule but are still nonetheless impossible. For instance, booking Chicago to Seattle on Monday with another separate booking of New York to Miami on Tuesday. There is no possibility that the same person can complete both trips as ticketed even though they are not duplicates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what are they going to do with those duplicated or impossible bookings?
Click to expand...

Cancel the latest ones booked.


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## Devil's Advocate

colobok said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are "impossible bookings"?
> 
> 
> 
> Things like booking the 4 PM Acela out of DC, along with the 5 PM & 6 PM Acela out of DC. Or booking the Empire Builder Chicago to Seattle on Monday and again on either Tuesday or Wednesday, where clearly if you caught the Monday train you cannot then catch one of the other trains.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those are examples of DUPLICATE bookings. Impossible bookings are unique enough to not break the duplicate rule but are still nonetheless impossible. For instance, booking Chicago to Seattle on Monday with another separate booking of New York to Miami on Tuesday. There is no possibility that the same person can complete both trips as ticketed even though they are not duplicates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what are they going to do with those duplicated or impossible bookings?
Click to expand...

Amtrak has stated they will attempt to contact the customer and clarify the primary ticket. The primary ticket will be allowed to remain in effect without modification but any other tickets that break the rules against duplicates and impossible scheduling will either need to be canceled or rescheduled. If Amtrak is unable to reach the customer they will consider the most recently booked ticket to be the primary and cancel any other tickets that break the duplicate and/or impossible rules when combined with the primary ticket.


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## TinCan782

I can understand Amtrak's POV regarding cancellations...losing possible use (sale) of a room because of a last minute cancellation. But, 15 days? Maybe 3 or less?

Anyway, its been recinded for the time being which is good for AGR members. Afterall, a "free" AGR ticket was being used by what are likely Amtrak's best customers.

John


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## AlanB

Frensic,

It wasn't so much the last minute cancellation that was the problem, Amtrak understands that things can happen that can cause one to cancel. The problem is more with people who book things thinking that just maybe they'll take a trip. Or booking on two successive days so that they can pick which day they want at the last minute. I believe that this had more to do with abuse of the liberal policies for canceling than it did with the average person needing to cancel last minute because of an emergency or some other circumstance beyond their control.

I suspect that AGR will continue to look for other ways to crack down on the abusers, without hitting the rest of us over the head with a sledgehammer like this policy would have done.


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## crescent2

Thanks, Amtrak, for listening and rescinding the proposed change.

And yes, it was rightfully a big deal to some of us, especially re health emergencies. The proposal was unreasonable and potentially very costly. Points are not easy for some of us to accumulate as there are no trains nearby. Glad they reconsidered. They can address the abuses in a different way.


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## Railroad Bill

Very happy to learn of AGR reconsideration of the previous policy. Agree that the abusers who double book and try to play games with the system should be rooted out. Now it is time to book some more Amtrak trips  and enjoy the ride.

Thanks to AGR and those who protested and hopefully influenced decision making. It is what America is all about


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