# Amtrak train with GOP congressional members hits truck (1/31/18)



## snvboy (Jan 31, 2018)

Today near Charlottesville....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/01/31/gop-retreat-train-collides-with-truck-no-serious-injuries-reported/?hpid=hp_no-name_no-name%3Apage%2Fbreaking-news-bar&utm_term=.124086c31522


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## tomfuller (Jan 31, 2018)

Was this a special train just for GOP congress people and spouses and staff? If it is the Cardinal some other passengers may not be

getting the attention they deserve. The truck seems to be a tractor trailer loaded with garbage.

CNN doesn't seem to know the difference between the Greenbriar hotel and the town of White Sulphur Springs.

Speaker Ryan and others say they are OK.


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## PhilaBurbTom (Jan 31, 2018)

Just being reported by Washington Post a collision with and Amtrak train carrying republican members of congress to a meeting in West Virginia.


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## seat38a (Jan 31, 2018)

Just saw the picture on CNN and its Amtrak. From the angle shown, the engine looks fine.


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## JoeBas (Jan 31, 2018)

Well... so much for that opportunity to win GOP Congressional Support...


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 31, 2018)

tomfuller said:


> Was this a special train just for GOP congress people and spouses and staff?


Yes, it is now being described as a chartered train (not a regular Amtrak train).


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## pennyk (Jan 31, 2018)

I heard it was a chartered train the originated in Washington, DC carrying members of Congress and their families to a retreat in West Virginia. I heard there were 3 on the garbage truck and at least one fatality from the truck.


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## Grandpa D (Jan 31, 2018)

It appears to be a special train. Cardinals (50/51) meet west of Charlottesville about 2:00pm and both are moving now according to 'New Track-A-Train'. Early video is at https://twitter.com/DurkinWeather/status/958744984190095366/video/1 .


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## OBS (Jan 31, 2018)

pennyk said:


> I heard it was a chartered train the originated in Washington, DC carrying members of Congress and their families to a retreat in West Virginia. I heard there were 3 on the garbage truck and at least one fatality from the truck.


It usually is a chartered train just for them.


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## OlympianHiawatha (Jan 31, 2018)

Hopefully massive fines and prison time for starters for those in the truck. It is well past time devastating penalties be placed on those who are cause rail crossing accidents, assuming they survive.


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## Ryan (Jan 31, 2018)

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Hopefully massive fines and prison time for starters for those in the truck. It is well past time devastating penalties be placed on those who are cause rail crossing accidents, assuming they survive.


You've got that jump to conclusions mat out pretty quickly!
Impressive that you know exactly what happened from hundreds of miles away within minutes!


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 31, 2018)

I find it ironic that the party that routinely votes to cut Amtrak is taking Amtrak to their annual meeting. Well at least they might understand the standard problems of Amtrak passengers


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## stappend (Jan 31, 2018)

Here's news coverage.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/train-carrying-gop-house-members-165119874.html


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## Triley (Jan 31, 2018)

seat38a said:


> Just saw the picture on CNN and its Amtrak. From the angle shown, the engine looks fine.




It'll be a while until it's back in service. Also...to cause an uproar, it was engine 145.

Image credit goes to Jeff Denham.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepJeffDenham/status/958746186495741953

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## Blackwolf (Jan 31, 2018)

Looks like Heritage Unit #145 is going to be OOS for a little while for bodywork and paint.


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## Adrouault (Jan 31, 2018)

CNN just said that someone was performing CPR on a conductor. (12:39 EST)


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## Alexandria Nick (Jan 31, 2018)

I suppose it has power on both ends? That explains the odd positioning of #4 at the grade cross.


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## jis (Jan 31, 2018)

I am seeing two sets of pictures of the accident, one with P42 #145 with a dent, and another with P42 #4. Was the train running with an engine at each end, and #4 is the tail of the train, while #145 was the head end?


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## Bob Dylan (Jan 31, 2018)

CNN is giving this heavy play including a reporter saying that the "Conductor driving tbe train" didn't see the truck until it was too late to stop.

Also that it was a "Regular" Chartered Amtrak Train since we don't have "Bullet Trains" like Japan,Europe and China.


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## pennyk (Jan 31, 2018)

jis said:


> I am seeing two sets of pictures of the accident, one with P42 #145 with a dent, and another with P42 #4. Was the train running with an engine at each end, and #4 is the tail of the train, while #145 was the head end?


MSNBC reported that there were engines at both ends.


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## jis (Jan 31, 2018)

Apparently Mr. Brightline Basher Mast was on this train too!


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## pennyk (Jan 31, 2018)

I just heard that train second engine is pulling train back to Charlottesville and passengers will board buses to continue to their retreat.

Photos show cross arms at crossing were down and lights were working.


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## Cho Cho Charlie (Jan 31, 2018)

JoeBas said:


> Well... so much for that opportunity to win GOP Congressional Support...


If it went the other way, Amtrak could have won Democratic Congressional Support for life.


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## tomfuller (Jan 31, 2018)

Buses have arrived to take those who were on the train onward to West Virginia. The members of Congress who are physicians who helped until EMS arrived are to be

commended. I hope that this does not mean the end to Amtrak LD routes.


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## west point (Jan 31, 2018)

Is there any possibility that this incident can be a wake up call to congress about the problems of grade crossing incidents ? That would actually mean some congressional actions that probably are not going to happen ?

What would happen is congressional action authorizing grade crossing cameras minimum fine $500.00 that cannot be cancelled by state or local actions to ban the cameras or fines.


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## PRR 60 (Jan 31, 2018)

The NTSB has sent a Go Team to investigate this accident.


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## VentureForth (Jan 31, 2018)

Weirdly, only one photo of 140. But, as others have said, #4 is right by the truck at the crossing, which it wouldn't be if it were the lead loco.



jis said:


> Apparently Mr. Brightline Basher Mast was on this train too!


Though that would be poetic, according to this article, not confirmed to have been onboard: https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/31/politics/who-was-on-the-train-gop-retreat-congress-republicans/index.html


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## jis (Jan 31, 2018)

We should start a pool on what NTSB will find.


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## Triley (Jan 31, 2018)

jis said:


> We should start a pool on what NTSB will find.


Could've been prevented by PTC and inward facing cameras!!!!111one112
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## jis (Jan 31, 2018)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/a-train-carrying-republican-lawmakers-is-involved-in-a-fatal-crash/552008/?utm_source=atlfb

A pretty concise report...


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## VentureForth (Jan 31, 2018)

Looks like #4 was the rescue loco


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 31, 2018)

VentureForth said:


> Looks like #4 was the rescue loco


4 was the unit on the north end of the train. All they did is cut away from the 145 and return to CVS.

In case anyone is interested, 51(31) and 50(30) are impacted and there is a need for a bus bridge between the two sets.


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## Dave Van (Jan 31, 2018)

tomfuller said:


> Was this a special train just for GOP congress people and spouses and staff? If it is the Cardinal some other passengers may not be
> 
> getting the attention they deserve. The truck seems to be a tractor trailer loaded with garbage.
> 
> ...


What did CNN say about WSS and the Greenbrier???

I live within minutes......around here the two are looked at as one.....the Greenbrier is surrounded by WSS.

Thx


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## Adrouault (Jan 31, 2018)

This will happen as long as we have at-grade crossings. So, a long time.


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## Lonestar648 (Jan 31, 2018)

Congress has never been interested in funding any elimination of grade crossings, maybe now they will see why so many keep asking for their elimination.

Fortunately, the train did not derail sending its cars all over, creating a major event with lots of injuries. I read that some on the train reported the crossing gates down and the lights working.

Prayers for everyone and the families of everyone involved, including the first responders.


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## Ryan (Jan 31, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> I read that some on the train reported the crossing gates down and the lights working.


Which is why you can't trust eyewitness reports, since there aren't any gates at the crossing to be down.

Incidentally, this looks like another "s-curve" style crossing like we were discussing in the Michigan thread...


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## keelhauled (Jan 31, 2018)

This image from The Atlantic article linked above pretty clearly shows there are gates. Probably Google's imagery is out of date.


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## Ryan (Jan 31, 2018)

Good eyes. I looked for them and didn’t see them, they way it lays right across the top of the ambulance.


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## chakk (Jan 31, 2018)

While we are speculating, I wonder if the garbage “trailer” being pulled by the truck’s cab “high-centered” on the crest of the grade crossing and could not be pulled clear by the truck driver as the train approached.

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## Cardinal (Jan 31, 2018)

More information from Roanoke tv station:

https://www.wsls.com/news/national/train-carrying-gop-lawmakers-to-policy-retreat-hits-truck


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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2018)

I personally know one of the Congress people and spouse on the train due to a long standing family connection. Fortunately, they are both OK according to tweets.

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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2018)

For a VIP charter train like this, would it make any sense to run an separate engine a mile or two ahead to make sure the track is clear? With the separate lead engine having special signage to let people know the main train was following. Like “You will die if you don’t wait!”.

Just trying to think outside the box a little. I know Amtrak doesn’t have enough engines to do this on all trains, but for special circumstances it might make sense.

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## chrsjrcj (Jan 31, 2018)

How is that going to prevent someone from not stopping for the next train 2 miles later?


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## Seaboard92 (Jan 31, 2018)

Well if it was a potus charter standard protocol in history has been to run one train ahead as an advance with secret service, railroad brass, and probably some press; usually with a track geography car first. Following by the potus train with the president, VIPs, and media. Being followed by a chase train with mostly media and secret service. But for a potus move crossings are closed and better patrolled.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jan 31, 2018)

chakk said:


> While we are speculating, I wonder if the garbage trailer being pulled by the trucks cab high-centered on the crest of the grade crossing and could not be pulled clear by the truck driver as the train approached.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Zero chance.

The S curve and limited line of sight are clues.

The three people in the cab of the truck is another clue.


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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2018)

Another idea which could work on all the trains. Run a drone ahead of the train to see if the crossing is clear. A drone with a loud horn that could hover over the crossing if it looks like somebody is going to do something stupid.

The drones should be relatively cheap. Infrared for night time work may add to the cost, though.

SWB would have to increase for whoever is piloting the drones, whether from the cab or central office. Should be an offset by reduction in expense for crashed engines and passenger cars. Plus lives saved.

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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> Another idea which could work on all the trains. Run a drone ahead of the train to see if the crossing is clear. A drone with a loud horn that could hover over the crossing if it looks like somebody is going to do something stupid.
> 
> The drones should be relatively cheap. Infrared for night time work may add to the cost, though.
> 
> ...


I'm just trying to picture this. You want run a drone in front of every single train that is operating in the country and have it hover over the grade crossings until the train clears it. You want said drone to be equipped with a horn that is loud enough to be heard over the sound of a locomotive engine that could be accelerating or moving fast with its horn blowing. Once that is over, you want the drone to outrun the train to the next grade crossing and attempt to protect that crossing as well?

Am I reading this correctly?


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## Devil's Advocate (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> For a VIP charter train like this, would it make any sense to run an separate engine a mile or two ahead to make sure the track is clear? With the separate lead engine having special signage to let people know the main train was following. Like “You will die if you don’t wait!”. Just trying to think outside the box a little. I know Amtrak doesn’t have enough engines to do this on all trains, but for special circumstances it might make sense.


You're so far outside the box that you're just a tiny blip on the horizon at this point. If this is what you really want then feel free to fund it out of your own wallet. If anything the US Congress needs to have _more_ experiences that match those of regular Americans. Experiences like having your passenger train hit a commercial truck on an at-grade crossing and having to be bused the rest of the way.


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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2018)

The drone provides visibility of the track ahead for obstacles like idiots running the tracks that the engineer won’t see until too late. The horn is just an added bonus.

And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis? There were spouses on the train, not just Congress people.

I told someone on that train how much fun train travel was a couple of years ago. I’m not likely to do that again.

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## keelhauled (Jan 31, 2018)

If you try to outsmart the idiots you will just be more surprised when they beat you again. Also you will be poorer.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis? There were spouses on the train, not just Congress people.



You raise a very good point. The train was right were it was supposed to be,,,yet the truck ended up right in front of it. Who in their right mind would indeed want to subsidize a service that puts people in danger on a regular basis?

Therefore, we should stop subsidizing the roads and highways. With all of the car, truck and bus accidents everyday, it is indeed true that no one in their right mind would want to subsidize something as expensive and expansive as a highway system. Why, these drivers are even getting in the way of trains...routinely....daily.

Who remembers the Sunday drive? that used to be fun. I used to tell my friends how fun they used to be, but with all the idiots on the road, and their apologists, I'm not likely to do it again. There are spouses and children on those roads....not just congress people!!!!!

It has been really fun chatting with you Carolina Special. I don't believe we've seen in you in many other grade crossing/ train vs vehicle threads. Can we look forward to your presence in the next thread, or is this a cameo?


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## SarahZ (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> For a VIP charter train like this, would it make any sense to run an separate engine a mile or two ahead to make sure the track is clear? With the separate lead engine having *special signage to let people know the main train was following. Like “You will die if you don’t wait!”.*


We do have special signage near crossings. They often look like this:




They tend to be accompanied by huge flashy lights and big stripey gates and loud dingy bells so that people know a big deathly train is about to cross.


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## MikefromCrete (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> The drone provides visibility of the track ahead for obstacles like idiots running the tracks that the engineer won’t see until too late. The horn is just an added bonus.
> 
> And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis? There were spouses on the train, not just Congress people.
> 
> ...


Why is it a p.r. disaster for Amtrak. Seems it's more a p.r. disaster for the garbage truck company. This is just another grade crossing accident.

The train didn't put anybody in danger, the garbage truck driver did. Perhaps those REpublicans on board will now be more inclined to spend money on grade separations and other grade crossing improvements.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 31, 2018)

SarahZ said:


> They tend to be accompanied by huge flashy lights and big stripey gates and loud dingy bells so that people know a big deathly train is about to cross.


SarahZ,

I regret to inform you that I can't see that sign without a drone accompanying it. Perhaps we should have a drone hover over RXR sign and another drone at every grade crossing in the country. If someone attempts to run the crossing, this will happen:



At least the train will be saved.


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## TC_NYC (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> Another idea which could work on all the trains. Run a drone ahead of the train to see if the crossing is clear. A drone with a loud horn that could hover over the crossing if it looks like somebody is going to do something stupid.
> 
> The drones should be relatively cheap. Infrared for night time work may add to the cost, though.
> 
> ...


How about putting these retracting arms at each crossing, so no one can get on the tracks, and also include lights and horns, so even if you can't see the arms, you can stop and be prepared for the oncoming train. We can then form a community outreach organization, let's call it operation red block, to teach kids in towns with grade crossings to stop when they see the flashing lights, the cross bars and the horns.

Oh wait. You mean we're already doing that?


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## SarahZ (Jan 31, 2018)

Thirdrail7 said:


> SarahZ,
> 
> I regret to inform you that I can't see that sign without a drone accompanying it. Perhaps we should have a drone hover over RXR sign and another drone at every grade crossing in the country. If someone attempts to run the crossing, this will happen:



You are one of my favorite humans.


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## akbrian (Jan 31, 2018)

"....Layne told The Associated Press that he has recently seen lines of cars stopped at the crossing, with the crossing arms lowered even though no train was approaching. He said motorists would get out of their cars to help guide other motorists around the malfunctioning arms so they could cross the tracks.

Layne says he has seen the arms stay down for hours. He also says he saw a man examining the crossing arms this week..."

https://www.wsls.com/news/national/train-carrying-gop-lawmakers-to-policy-retreat-hits-truck


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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2018)

Just a cameo, Third Rail. I would note that the solution for roads and highways is coming. Before too long, we’ll have self-driving cars. And companies, not just governments, seem eager to fund these. At some point shortly after that, driving your own car will be outlawed, first on the major highways and then later on the secondary roads. Accident problem solved, except for those poor police departments that rely on tickets for funding. And if the car will drive you there by itself and deal with traffic, who needs to take the train?[emoji4]. Amtrak traffic seems like it will take a hit, at the margin anyway. And there ain’t much margin to lose.

SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.[emoji4]

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## Rover (Jan 31, 2018)

akbrian said:


> "....Layne told The Associated Press that he has recently seen lines of cars stopped at the crossing, with the crossing arms lowered even though no train was approaching. He said motorists would get out of their cars to help guide other motorists around the malfunctioning arms so they could cross the tracks.
> 
> Layne says he has seen the arms stay down for hours. He also says he saw a man examining the crossing arms this week..."
> 
> https://www.wsls.com/news/national/train-carrying-gop-lawmakers-to-policy-retreat-hits-truck


Can you change Human Nature for cases like this? I seriously doubt it.

Solution #1: Have dedicated rail for Amtrak, and have Amtrak keep up the signage, signals and crossing arms along it's route.

Solution #2: Nationalize all railroad track and have the Govt. be in charge of keeping up the signals and crossing arms and signage.

Assuming we can find an extra trillion lying around somewhere...


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## Ryan (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.


Yeah, but this one did, so that's not terribly relevant.


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## Ryan (Jan 31, 2018)

SarahZ said:


> We do have special signage near crossings. They often look like this:
> 
> {ZOMGXBOXHEUGE image removed}
> 
> They tend to be accompanied by huge flashy lights and big stripey gates and loud dingy bells so that people know a big deathly train is about to cross.





Thirdrail7 said:


> I regret to inform you that I can't see that sign without a drone accompanying it. Perhaps we should have a drone hover over RXR sign and another drone at every grade crossing in the country. If someone attempts to run the crossing, this will happen:





SarahZ said:


> You are one of my favorite humans.


You're both in the running for Bestest Human Ever.


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## SarahZ (Jan 31, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.[emoji4]


No, but stop signs, RR Crossing signs, visible railroad tracks, a loud train horn, and flashing ditch lights on the loco should be a clue that you should 1) stop to check for a train and 2) definitely stay stopped if you see a train.

I don't see how a special, slow-moving loco with a sign is going to add any clarity to the situation. There are plenty of signs already.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jan 31, 2018)

Sarah and Ryan: get some higher standards!!







Carolina Special said:


> And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. I told someone on that train how much fun train travel was a couple of years ago. I’m not likely to do that again.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Speaking of PR disasters and not having fun, most have overlooked the fact that 51(31) and 50(30) were caught up in this mess. The bus-bridge has been completed. 51(31) is currently 4'27" down at CLF while 50(30) is down 3'58" approaching MSS.


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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2018)

Oh, I’ve already moved on from the lead train idea. We need to fix all passenger trains, not just the VIP ones. Was just throwing it out as an idea.

Drones seem more workable. Besides the freights like BNSF are already using them for track inspections. Why can’t this expanded to active train operations?

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## Carolina Special (Jan 31, 2018)

And I do respect Third Rail and SarahZ a lot. Which doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything they say. Just most of it[emoji4]

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## Lonestar648 (Jan 31, 2018)

what about just fund eliminating many of the grade crossings and closing the least traveled crossings.

The drone idea doesn't work when the railroad passes along the property line of an airport, or a DOD facility, etc. There are also the communications towers the drones have to avoid. Also, how many people are needed to operate drones 24x7x365. Drones seem like a temporary fix, more of a band-aid when a permanent solution is desperately needed.


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## VentureForth (Feb 1, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> Oh, I’ve already moved on from the lead train idea. We need to fix all passenger trains, not just the VIP ones. Was just throwing it out as an idea.
> 
> Drones seem more workable. Besides the freights like BNSF are already using them for track inspections. Why can’t this expanded to active train operations?


Shhh. It's already hard enough around here being a political conservative and a train fan. Don't make it harder for us. I'd love to find a drone with a 72-hour battery life that can withstand all weather conditions and ... tunnels.
Here's the deal about THIS incident from the reports I've read: Witnesses have stated that this particular grade crossing (the only one in Crozet, WV - the other crossings are not at grade) had a malfunctioning gate. It had the equipment, but it wasn't working right. It was known to fail often in the DOWN position - sometimes for hours. I know that here in Savannah, if there is a malfunctioning gate, a call to CSX immediately warns all locomotive engineers to slow down and a technician is dispatched immediately. Now, of course, in a city, there are more technicians available at the drop of a hat than in Crozet, WV, but at least the engineers would know and within an hour or two, someone would be out there figuring out why.

The problem then lies in the fact that people are Pavlov'd into thinking that EVERY time the gates are down, it's a problem, so they are conditioned to go around. Not smart - just human nature. Don't know where these guys in the garbage truck were headed, but I'm sure taking a 2 1/2 mile detour seemed pretty inconvenient at the time.


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## KmH (Feb 1, 2018)

How useful are drones in inclement weather?


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## John Bobinyec (Feb 1, 2018)

SarahZ said:


> Carolina Special said:
> 
> 
> > SarahZ, I don’t know about the Midwest, but in rural Virginia we have a lot of crossings which don’t have huge flashy lights, big stripey gates and loud dingy bells. This includes a good part of the Cardinal route, which I’ve driven along. I guess we’re just backwards.[emoji4]
> ...


Not to mention that the lone locomotive with the sign could not be followed so closely by the special train such that the driver of the truck would not be able to still drive around the gates in front of the special train - or in front of the lone locomotive with the sign for that matter.

The only thing that would work is those retractable barriers that would positively stop a truck if it tried to cross.

jb


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## John Bobinyec (Feb 1, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> Oh, I’ve already moved on from the lead train idea. We need to fix all passenger trains, not just the VIP ones. Was just throwing it out as an idea.
> 
> Drones seem more workable. Besides the freights like BNSF are already using them for track inspections. Why can’t this expanded to active train operations?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


So what kind of drone are you suggesting, and what would they do? Perhaps you mean a military drone that could blow up a vehicle if it tried to go around the gates?

jb


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## jis (Feb 1, 2018)

I was thinking just that. Drones that fire little RPGs LOL! That'l teach 'em


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## WoodyinNYC (Feb 1, 2018)

VentureForth said:


> ... this particular grade crossing (the only one in Crozet, WV - the other crossings are not at grade) ...


Invest in a daily _Cardinal_, and a second frequency, with improvements on the route, like eliminating more grade crossings.

The cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak (including more grade-separated crossings).

Edited when I finally recalled the right word. LOL.


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 1, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> The drone provides visibility of the track ahead for obstacles like idiots running the tracks that the engineer won’t see until too late. The horn is just an added bonus.


Yeah, you can go ahead and fund that out of your own wallet as well.



Carolina Special said:


> Today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis?


What exactly did Amtrak do (or fail to do) in order to bring about this "PR disaster?" Seems like it's the owner/operator/maintainer of the truck that was fouling the crossing that should be blamed for this, not Amtrak. I'm not sure why your friends would choose to blame Amtrak anyway but I trust that you know them better than we do.



Carolina Special said:


> I told someone on that train how much fun train travel was a couple of years ago. I’m not likely to do that again.


Sounds like this "PR disaster" is really just you feeling embarrassed about sticking your neck out.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 1, 2018)

As someone who has spent a year in the signal department I can say a few things.

1. If the signal department isn't aware of a malfunctioning crossing they aren't able to respond to it. The required test is a 30 day test. I remember on Carolina Ave we had a crossing that liked to activate with no train around it at a certain time each day. And if you weren't around when it happened you wouldn't know unless someone would call. And that crossing it would activate for two minutes then it would stop.

2. It should be a fairly close response time across the country because signal maintainers generally have a territory where I was of 30-40 miles of track before the next one's territory.

Where can it be improved if when you see a malfunction that you phone it in. The only reason we caught Carolina avenue's crossing was because someone at the bakery across the tracks phoned it in after observing the 4pm ritual.

As how to stop people from going around lowered gates. What about those traffic blockers that are in DC around the Capitol at every crossing. Then just have them set to pop up when the gate lowers. But place them in a way that a car in the crossing can run over them to escape, but doesn't let them in. Costly but way 100 percent more effective then a drone solution.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 1, 2018)

the operation of the road blockers could be complicated and a maintenance nightmare as well. Dust, dirt, sand, small gravel from heavy traffic will fall into the recessed area most likely fouling the mechanism. The barriers around the Capitol do not have the same number of cars and trucks, nor are they traveling at the higher speed. Also, they have service personnel available 24x7 almost on site. Winters could be even worse. So after a good barrier system is designed and trouble shot, what are the install costs and monthly service costs? In the end they may be slightly cheaper than eliminating the crossing, but in the end less expensive and eliminating the crossing is nearly zero on going RR maintenance.


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## Seaboard92 (Feb 1, 2018)

The cheapest and most effective solution are quad gates. Or cement medians in the roadways 100 ft prior to the track. But in a lot of places that wouldn't work because roads also parallel the track in places.


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## akbrian (Feb 1, 2018)

Looking at Google Earth and watching the WSLS video, it sure appears that the road geometry at that crossing is particularly bad. FYI, I used "Lanetown Rd at Marymart Farm Rd, Crozet, VA" as my Google Earth search. I'll be curious to see if this is considered a factor in the findings. I'm also curious if a local short line railroad like the BBR has sufficient signal maintenance resources in order to test and maintain crossing equipment in a timely manner.


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## neroden (Feb 1, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> The drone provides visibility of the track ahead for obstacles like idiots running the tracks that the engineer won’t see until too late. The horn is just an added bonus.
> 
> And today was a PR disaster for Amtrak. Who in their right mind wants to subsidize train service that puts people in danger on a regular basis? There were spouses on the train, not just Congress people.
> 
> ...


The train service doesn't put anyone in danger. The idiots driving garbage trucks around crossing gates put lots of people in danger.

I'm not likely to recommend car travel ever again, and I'd quite happily close off all the roads to prevent these untrained yahoos from causing trouble. Or we could start some kind of licensing system where only highly trained people are allowed to drive trucks, because *apparently there isn't one right now*.


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## Carolina Special (Feb 1, 2018)

As I stated elsewhere, car and truck travel will ultimately be resolved by the requirement to use self-driving vehicles, which will obey the traffic laws. Or you’ll be prohibited from using the roads. It may take a couple of decades, but I expect it will happen.

That will fix most “idiot” problems, except for the inevitable glitches, like the crossing gates not working.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## neroden (Feb 1, 2018)

VentureForth said:


> Here's the deal about THIS incident from the reports I've read: Witnesses have stated that this particular grade crossing (the only one in Crozet, WV - the other crossings are not at grade) had a malfunctioning gate. It had the equipment, but it wasn't working right. It was known to fail often in the DOWN position - sometimes for hours. I know that here in Savannah, if there is a malfunctioning gate, a call to CSX immediately warns all locomotive engineers to slow down and a technician is dispatched immediately. Now, of course, in a city, there are more technicians available at the drop of a hat than in Crozet, WV, but at least the engineers would know and within an hour or two, someone would be out there figuring out why.
> 
> The problem then lies in the fact that people are Pavlov'd into thinking that EVERY time the gates are down, it's a problem, so they are conditioned to go around. Not smart - just human nature. Don't know where these guys in the garbage truck were headed, but I'm sure taking a 2 1/2 mile detour seemed pretty inconvenient at the time.


Seems to me the dopes in the garbage truck didn't even "stop, look, and listen". This is not a superfast section of track; it's not a "quiet zone"; it has good visibility and audibility...


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 1, 2018)

Seaboard92 said:


> The cheapest and most effective solution are quad gates. Or cement medians in the roadways 100 ft prior to the track. But in a lot of places that wouldn't work because roads also parallel the track in places.


The cheapest method is to form a public-private partnership and install cameras at each crossing and fine the people who pass through while the crossing is activated. Be sure to get both the license and the windows so the fine sticks. The primary threat to the train comes from commercial vehicles so I'd put the fine for them at 50x the fine for a basic sedan.


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## Carolina Special (Feb 1, 2018)

And I learned today that the garbage collectors involved in Crozet were from Time Disposal. They do pick up trash in my Charlottesville neighborhood, although I and most residents use another service that has been in the neighborhood longer.

There are GoFundMe pages for a survivor and the family of the deceased at the company web site, for those who feel inclined to contribute.

Mods, if you feel the last paragraph is inappropriate please delete it. Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 1, 2018)

> On January 31st 2018, Christopher Foley was one of the victims in the Amtrak and garbage truck collision. Unfortunately, Chris lost his life. We here at the company lost a friend and a brother, his one year old son and mother of his child lost a father. We have set up this page to help Mr. Foley's family, theres no amount of money that can replace a human life. Anything that you are able to donate helps the family financially through this horrific time. We are trying to raise enough for the family to cover funeral cost and help with some living costs. All the money will go directly to Mr. Foley's family.


Victim? According to what I read it sounds like this guy was the driver. If Mr. Foley was the victim then who was the perpetrator? Isaac Newton? What a load of rubbish. Literally.


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## Ashland Train Enthusiast (Feb 1, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> As I stated elsewhere, car and truck travel will ultimately be resolved by the requirement to use self-driving vehicles, which will obey the traffic laws. Or youll be prohibited from using the roads. It may take a couple of decades, but I expect it will happen.
> 
> That will fix most idiot problems, except for the inevitable glitches, like the crossing gates not working.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


You seem very confident in this. As a fellow rural Virginian, I'll take the over on this happening in the next couple of decades, much less my lifetime. And I'm of the millennial generation, so I've hopefully got plenty of life ahead of me ;-)

~ ATE


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## west point (Feb 1, 2018)

If the truck driver is at fault some one is going bankrupt. If the crossing gates had malfunctioned then someone is going bankrupt. The loco camera and loco occupants will give a lot of information.

Around here all crossings record every operation and duration for last 30 days.

Agree crossing cameras can reduce but not eliminate all scoff laws. But it will take national legislation that prevents any state or local laws banning the cameras .


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## akbrian (Feb 1, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> > On January 31st 2018, Christopher Foley was one of the victims in the Amtrak and garbage truck collision. Unfortunately, Chris lost his life. We here at the company lost a friend and a brother, his one year old son and mother of his child lost a father. We have set up this page to help Mr. Foley's family, theres no amount of money that can replace a human life. Anything that you are able to donate helps the family financially through this horrific time. We are trying to raise enough for the family to cover funeral cost and help with some living costs. All the money will go directly to Mr. Foley's family.
> 
> 
> Victim? According to what I read it sounds like this guy was the driver. If Mr. Foley was the victim then who was the perpetrator? Isaac Newton? What a load of rubbish. Literally.


The beneficiary of any charitable giving will not be the deceased that made the mistake, but his wife and 1 year old son, who I'm fairly certain are not at fault here.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 1, 2018)

Too many people driving these days are too impatient to wait for a train to pass. Even today, as a freight was cross a road near us, the gates had been down only seconds when people were turning around to find a quicker way. I timed the delay at about 5 minutes. This "I don't have time for this" attitude is the contributing factor for people impatiently trying to beat a train or cross thru a crossing with the gates down. The Teflon attitude that nothing will happen to me just enhances the situation that even more people with go around the gates, even with cameras, warning signs, flashing lights, etc. I see people every time I go through several crossings waiting for traffic to move ahead with their vehicle on the tracks. BIG signs say DO NOT STOP ON THE TRACKS, but almost everyone does. I never stop on the track, so I am the receiving loud horn blasts because I am at the white line before the crossing. I have drilled it into my children and grandchildren NEVER stop on the tracks. More than once we have had our hearts in our throats as the crossing gates start coming down with two lanes of cars on the tracks. Fortunately, there has been enough time for cars to go all which way including into the on coming lanes to escape just before the train passes, always with its horn blaring in the "Quiet Zone". The country doesn't have the money, but the best way is to eliminate the crossings, especially on RR main lines.

Commercial Truck drivers are becoming fewer and fewer, so the companies hiring these drivers have to lower their standards each year in order to put drivers in their trucks. Many companies do not require English to be spoken or read to qualify. There are are many eastern European drivers that have not learn to read and speak English do not understand our road signs. Many states want to increase the CDL licencing standards, but the trucking industry is already hurting so bad they can't without hurting the general public with reduced inventories or major price increases to cover major wage increases.


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## Rover (Feb 1, 2018)

Are the participants of the retreat at the Greenbrier going to take buses home, or, the train, or a combination of the two??


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 1, 2018)

akbrian said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > > On January 31st 2018, Christopher Foley was one of the victims in the Amtrak and garbage truck collision. Unfortunately, Chris lost his life. We here at the company lost a friend and a brother, his one year old son and mother of his child lost a father. We have set up this page to help Mr. Foley's family, theres no amount of money that can replace a human life. Anything that you are able to donate helps the family financially through this horrific time. We are trying to raise enough for the family to cover funeral cost and help with some living costs. All the money will go directly to Mr. Foley's family.
> ...


I have no problem with the wife, the son, or the crowdfunding of innocent survivors. I merely said calling the driver of this particular truck a victim was a load of rubbish. Looks like it was the trucking company that chose these revisionist blame-shifting words. I never thought I'd say this, but at this point I'm honestly ready for self driving trucks. They won't be perfect, and I'm sure they'll still be involved in several major accidents, but in my view the bar for commercial driving competence is already so low it's hard to imagine they could be any worse.


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## akbrian (Feb 1, 2018)

Devil's Advocate said:


> akbrian said:
> 
> 
> > Devil's Advocate said:
> ...


I think perhaps you're thinking of his term "victim" in a faultless sense of the word, where as likely the poster wasn't intending that. For example, someone may eat too much unhealthy food, not get enough exercise, and eventually have a heart attack. It's pretty common to still think of that person as a "heart attack victim", without intending to diminish the victim's role in the inevitable event.


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## brianpmcdonnell17 (Feb 1, 2018)

akbrian said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> > akbrian said:
> ...


For one, this situation is a much more direct result, as eating unhealthy is a long-term thing and also does not necessarily lead to an "inevitable" heart attack. While eating unhealthy does increase the risk of a heart attack, the correlation is much less than between those who go around crossing gates and those who get hit by trains. It should also be considered that some people have eating addictions so they struggle greatly to eat healthily. However, the main reason that the analogy is misleading is that the truck driver did something illegal that endangered many other people, while eating unhealthy food is completely legal and endangers only yourself.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 1, 2018)

For those interested in the driver-less cars, they are testing the concept in Kirkland, WA, Austin, TX, and Pittsburgh, PA. They have been successful in a limited area, but the big question is how many sensors have to be all over the car.and the potential to out price the average user. In the state of Washington the DOT has held off legislators who want to pass legislation to super regulate the concept, thus slow the development to a crawl. Unless the US DOT established the rules and reg for all states, it may not be possible to drive the driver-less car from state to state due to that states regulations. So, the developers may get the concept working, but state legislators may inadvertently shut the whole driver less car down. There is some negativity towards the commercial trucking being driver-less due to the number of split second discussions a CDL driver has to know, observe, and decide. It may happen, but appears to be a much longer project, and most likely very highly regulated due to the weight and size of the vehicle (up to a 53 foot trailer and 80,000 pounds per single trailer rig, more for two 48 foot trailers or three pubs.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Feb 1, 2018)

> Commercial Truck drivers are becoming fewer and fewer, so the companies hiring these drivers have to lower their standards each year in order to put drivers in their trucks. Many companies do not require English to be spoken or read to qualify. There are are many eastern European drivers that have not learn to read and speak English do not understand our road signs. Many states want to increase the CDL licencing standards, but the trucking industry is already hurting so bad they can't without hurting the general public with reduced inventories or major price increases to cover major wage increases.


English is required.Were not hurting yet, but plenty of work available.

Reduced inventories is why were busy.

At some point your going to see a shift in the truck business, were not there yet. Today I have 33,000lbs of Slim Jims onboard. I max at 44,500. Space available in the trailer. This is a stock load going to cold storage then deliver to a store near you. No need to leave the shipper without max the cube, and or max the weight. This is common.

Still common is the No warehouse Just-In-Time. Deliver 8 pallets of frozen bread 1200 miles. Was talking to the unloading service. He was surprised I had so much freight. This bread supplier delivers ever day, but only 4-5 pallets at a time. I can fit 28 pallets. It seem the buyers are given a bonus if they keep inventory low. Fast turn around of stock is the goal. Nobody keeping a eye on the transportation cost.

Anyways back to the accident. Three in cab, bad angle of approach, possible history of a problematic Gates.

Distraction, limited view, recent experience of Gates failure. The perfect trifecta.

.


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## akbrian (Feb 2, 2018)

Update from;

https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/community-raising-funds-for-family-of-amtrak-crash-victim

"...Foley, who was one of the two passengers of the trash truck, died from injuries suffered in the crash, police said. The other passenger was airlifted to the University of Virginia Medical Center with critical injuries, while the driver of the truck was taken by ground in serious condition..."


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## Devil's Advocate (Feb 2, 2018)

If Foley was not the driver and played no role in the truck being the tracks then I stand corrected and referring to him as a victim is both morally and grammatically correct.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 2, 2018)

The NTSB is performing a reenactment of this incident. I suspect we'll be able to see a preliminary report and a final report.


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 2, 2018)

NTSB suspects malfunctioning signals and crossing gate based on witness interviews.


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## A Voice (Feb 2, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> As I stated elsewhere, car and truck travel will ultimately be resolved by the requirement to use self-driving vehicles, which will obey the traffic laws. Or you’ll be prohibited from using the roads. It may take a couple of decades, but I expect it will happen.
> 
> That will fix most “idiot” problems, except for the inevitable glitches, like the crossing gates not working.


Even setting aside classic and restored cars (and old "farm" pickups so rusted out you could reach through the bodywork), there are still a fair number of 1990's model vehicles on the road today. Yet, in just a couple decades you suggest that people will be required to own self-driving vehicles which as of 2018 largely aren't even on the market yet? Seriously?


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## Larry H. (Feb 3, 2018)

A little of the topic but I can't help but wonder when they run a special like this for congress do they have the same food service, or do they get special treatment so as not to give them the real effects of their cutting of the diners?


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## railiner (Feb 3, 2018)

Larry H. said:


> A little of the topic but I can't help but wonder when they run a special like this for congress do they have the same food service, or do they get special treatment so as not to give them the real effects of their cutting of the diners?


On a charter, the customer chooses what food service they are willing to pay for....


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## PaulM (Feb 3, 2018)

> Many states want to increase the CDL licencing standards, but the trucking industry is already hurting so bad they can't without hurting the general public with reduced inventories or major price increases to cover major wage increases.


Just another consequence of the Wal-mart syndrome. I'm not bashing Wal-mart here, merely the mentality of only being willing to pay the lowest up-front price without considering the long term costs or risks.


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## John Bobinyec (Feb 3, 2018)

51(4) is canceled for tomorrow. Is this fallout from this incident, or something else?

jb


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## AmtrakBlue (Feb 3, 2018)

John Bobinyec said:


> 51(4) is canceled for tomorrow. Is this fallout from this incident, or something else?
> 
> jb


Looks to be just cancelled north of WAS. That would be because they used superliners for 50 which terminated at WAS and I guess those are going back to CI on 51. They list NERs and other trains for making the connection in WAS.


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## Carolina Special (Feb 4, 2018)

A Voice, a couple of decades ago we didn’t have smart phones and Microsoft Windows was going to rule computing forever. Twenty years before that we didn’t have PCs and IBM mainframes were to going to rule.

Never underestimate the power of technology to change things over a period of decades, at least since 1800. We may not be able to correctly predict how the change will come: I proved that myself in the early 1990s when I was briefly involved with TV Answer for interactive data instead of that Internet stuff, which eventually got adopted by the cell carriers (He chose...poorly).

But the change will happen. Gradually, not all at one time, because there will be a lot of old vehicles out on the roads and you have to build up the 50.1% political backing to push it through. Like the history of tobacco taxes, and what is now happening with soda and coffee.

Government loves the idea of self driving vehicles because it means more control. Great for law enforcement. Shared vehicles instead of personal ownership so less cars on the roads, meaning lower road maintenance and lower insurance rates for Geico. It will happen.

I actually don’t like the lack of privacy implications, but have to acknowledge the inevitability.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## grover5995 (Feb 4, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> Just a cameo, Third Rail. I would note that the solution for roads and highways is coming. Before too long, we’ll have self-driving cars. And companies, not just governments, seem eager to fund these. At some point shortly after that, driving your own car will be outlawed, first on the major highways and then later on the secondary roads. Accident problem solved, except for those poor police departments that rely on tickets for funding. And if the car will drive you there by itself and deal with traffic, who needs to take the train?[emoji4]. .
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Persons like students or those who don't own a car will still need some way to get around even if self-driving cars becomes a reality.


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## MARC Rider (Feb 5, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> Government loves the idea of self driving vehicles because it means more control. Great for law enforcement. Shared vehicles instead of personal ownership so less cars on the roads, meaning lower road maintenance and lower insurance rates for Geico. It will happen.
> 
> I actually don’t like the lack of privacy implications, but have to acknowledge the inevitability.


"Shared Vehicles" means that people will need to ride with strangers if they're really serious about getting cars of the roads and getting environmental benefits. I'm not so sure the public is ready for that, because if they were, we'd be living in the golden age of mass transit (which is more or less the same thing). The whole point of the automobile was that you didn't have to share your ride with the riffraff.

"Great for :aw enforcement" means that the autonomous vehicles will be programmed to drive like grandpa on a Sunday drive. I'm not sure that the public is ready for that, either, given all of the aggressive driving I encounter every day. The automakers constantly say that the reason they oppose tough fuel economy rules is because of the trade-off between "performance" (really acceleration) and fuel economy, and they find their customers aren't buying those sluggish high-mpg vehicles. Maybe electric cars might change that, but they're not yet priced for the masses, and who knows if they ever will be.


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## VentureForth (Feb 5, 2018)

Lonestar648 said:


> NTSB suspects malfunctioning signals and crossing gate based on witness interviews.


Well, if they were malfunctioning, they malfunctioned down (which is what they were doing, apparently, previous to this fateful day. The "witnesses" were presumably not present at the time of this exact accident (excepting the three in the truck). The fact is that there is an underpass around a mile away. If you can't see, don't go around the gates. Take the 2 mile detour.


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## Carolina Special (Feb 5, 2018)

To get this a little back on topic. There were media reports that the crossing signals were malfunctioning prior to the collision, which may have contributed. With the gate staying down for extended periods or behaving erratically.

Now the best way for dealing with this personally is probably to turn around and take another route, assuming it is possible with your vehicle.

But is there a standard industry procedure for reporting suspected malfunctioning gates? Or call 911 and hope it gets fixed? How long does the host carrier have to fix these?

I haven’t had any issues with train gates, but a few years ago I did get stuck in my car trying to turn left at a traffic light where all the signals were working except the ones controlling the two left hand turn lanes. And I was in the leftmost lane and couldn’t move. [emoji51]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## MikefromCrete (Feb 5, 2018)

Carolina Special said:


> To get this a little back on topic. There were media reports that the crossing signals were malfunctioning prior to the collision, which may have contributed. With the gate staying down for extended periods or behaving erratically.
> 
> Now the best way for dealing with this personally is probably to turn around and take another route, assuming it is possible with your vehicle.
> 
> ...


I don't know how it is in Virginia, but around here, there are signs at crossings giving a telephone number for the railroad maintaining the gates. The public is advised to call the number to report a problem. Or you can just call 9-1-1. The 9-1-1 dispatchers should have phone numbers for railroad personnel.


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## west point (Feb 5, 2018)

One problem causing gates to operate random interment is the power company feed having a bad ground. That can be from meter to transformer and even further away. Floating grounds cause havoc on any electronics including your home. Use of power company aluminum wire is always subject to connections not being tight enough. An improper grounded welder close by might also cause problems.


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## CHamilton (Feb 21, 2018)

Truck was on tracks despite gates when struck by Amtrak train: U.S. report

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-congress-train/truck-was-on-tracks-despite-gates-when-struck-by-amtrak-train-u-s-report-idUSKCN1G52DD?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews


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## Lonestar648 (Feb 21, 2018)

The fine technicality of it is that the truck entered the crossing where the Railroad has the right of way. A lawyer I know who has some experience in these accidents stated that many judges see that the RR was present prior to the road in most cases, so even though the train physically ran into the truck, in his interpretation of the law the truck was trespassing and ran into the train.


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## DSS&A (Feb 23, 2018)

Amtrak and the freight railroad both need to sue the driver and his employer for damamages and potential lost revenue. That driver should be brought up on multiple charges.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jun 10, 2018)

The engine involved has finally made it to BEE. That is where it will likely stay until this is resolved:

Truck driver indicted over fatal wreck with lawmakers' train

Here is a brief "fair use" quote:



> CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) — A garbage-truck driver who drove into the path of a train carrying Republican members of Congress has been indicted on charges of involuntary manslaughter and driving under the influence, police in Virginia said Friday.
> 
> The Jan. 31 collision, just outside of Charlottesville, killed a co-worker of the driver, injured several other people and rattled the lawmakers as they headed to a retreat at The Greenbrier resort in White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia.
> 
> A grand jury indicted Dana W. Naylor Jr., 31, on one count of involuntary manslaughter and one count of maiming another while driving under the influence, the Albemarle County Police Department said in a statement Friday. It wasn't immediately clear what the alleged intoxicant was. One trash company employee, 28-year-old Christopher Foley, was killed in the collision. A second passenger and several others were injured.



With DUI in the picture, I suppose an indictment would have happened even if this train was occupied by a group of lawmakers on their way to a respite.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Jun 10, 2018)

Clearly states unknown intoxicant. Simple DWI Alcohol does not need a grand jury to file charges. CDL holder are held to higher standards, or in case of DWI Alcohol lower standards. You 0.08 car driver, me 0.04 CDL holder. Just have a CDL and driving a motorcycle with over 0.04 gets the DWI charge, we dont need to be driving a tractor trailer at the time.

So having lawmakers might make it a high profile case, but even with out them still should of been a criminal charge. The wild card is what was the intoxicant.


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## Thirdrail7 (Dec 8, 2018)

I guess this slipped by us.

Father Files $10M Lawsuit Against Train Companies Connected to Amtrak Crash

A brief "fair use" quote:



> The lawsuit is against CSX Transportation, who owns the rail track, and Buckingham Branch Railroad, who operates it. Plaintiffs are arguing that the companies knew about problems with the lights and gates at the railroad crossing on Lanetown Road before the crash on January 31.
> 
> The lawsuit, which was filed Friday, September 7 claims the gates came down on top of or around the Time Disposal truck.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 9, 2018)

Not a direct comment on the lawsuit.  However I have grown tired of the lack of engineering in stop lights.  Trucks have a know stopping distance for the speed limited on the road.  Simple math.  Yet we don’t have a required timing for traffic lights on roads.  Each DOT does it own thing.

Travel thur Alabama is a exercise in hard braking.  I now travel at least 15 mph below the speed limit if there a traffic light in sight.  Still powerbraking to stop before entering the intersection as the cars are crossing in front of me.  Setting off my camera g-force sensory at ever light it seems.  Boss can’t yell at me as he can see that I am at reduced speed before the light turns yellow.

Timing, speed limit of the road, and visible of the red lights would be something to look at.


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## Devil's Advocate (Dec 9, 2018)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Not a direct comment on the lawsuit.  However I have grown tired of the lack of engineering in stop lights.  Trucks have a know stopping distance for the speed limited on the road.  Simple math.  Yet we don’t have a required timing for traffic lights on roads.  Each DOT does it own thing. Travel thur Alabama is a exercise in hard braking.  I now travel at least 15 mph below the speed limit if there a traffic light in sight.  Still powerbraking to stop before entering the intersection as the cars are crossing in front of me.  Setting off my camera g-force sensory at ever light it seems.  Boss can’t yell at me as he can see that I am at reduced speed before the light turns yellow. Timing, speed limit of the road, and visible of the red lights would be something to look at.


Where I live stoplight timing rarely seems designed to handle approaching traffic in an efficient and practical manner.  On several major thoroughfares the primary traffic flow ends up stopping at every single intersection.  Twelve or even twenty cars slamming on the breaks for at most one or two cars worth of cross traffic, and just as often no cross traffic at all.  Around here traffic light timing has actually gotten shorter over time, probably in a response to poor flow coordination leading to clogged surface streets, but also in areas where municipalities are trying to work around limited tax revenue by promoting additional infractions for red light cameras to catch.


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 11, 2018)

Duplicate post! Opps!


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## Bob Dylan (Dec 11, 2018)

Ditto for Austin and I'm sure All other Texas Cities since most Traffic Engineers in the Lone Star State were trained @ Texas A&M. :giggle:


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 2, 2019)

dgvrengineer said:


> Truck driver in that incident was just in court on manslaughter charges.  He was found Not Guilty.  Maybe this will be the end of the legal stuff and the equipment can be released for service.


Thank  you for the update. I pulled this from another thread so we can have it in the appropriate thread. Here is a link to the story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/truck-driver-found-not-guilty-in-crash-with-chartered-train/2019/02/28/eb8e55b4-3b5f-11e9-b10b-f05a22e75865_story.html?noredirect=on&amp;utm_term=.91a5c343a88f



> A charge of maiming under the influence was dropped after the judge ruled out certain scientific testimony and blood evidence on Tuesday. Albemarle Commonwealth’s Attorney Robert Tracci said the decision made it difficult to maintain the DUI charge. It’s difficult to establish impairment for some substances using toxicological evidence alone, he said.
> 
> Amanda Snow, the sole defense witnessed called, testified that she had lived near the crash site for almost three years and the crossing gate arms regularly malfunctioned, sometimes lowering for no reason. Tracci questioned Snow’s account, particularly her claim that she had seen the arms lowered for a “full day.”


With the DUI out of the picture, I suppose it was word against word. I guess the outward facing camera on the engine couldn't pick up the status of the grade crossing gates.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 2, 2019)

Thirdrail7 said:


> With the DUI out of the picture, I suppose it was word against word. I guess the outward facing camera on the engine couldn't pick up the status of the grade crossing gates.


More likely the outward facing camera only show the gates down at the time of the accident.  To prove they were working you need to see them come down.  Of course the defense would claim they were going up and down with out cause.  A camera at a house that could see the grade crossing would prove the issue. Then the defense would still the claim the gates had a history of not working correctly would be there argument.

Not going to win, too bad the DWI failed.  That should of been much easier.


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## Anderson (Mar 2, 2019)

And of course, if a given set of gates wind up with an established reputation for malfunctioning, that is going to make charges about going around the gate touchy even if you can see them going around it.

(The Harpersville Road gates in Newport News had this issue for a bit, resulting in it occasionally turning into a stop sign.)


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## daybeers (Mar 3, 2019)

It's impossible to tell the intoxication level of a person by the level of THC in their bloodstream, so IMO it was correct to throw out the DWI.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 3, 2019)

First time I have heard what the intoxication was.  For the recorded a CDL holder the limited is zero percentage of THC. We are regulated by Federal Law.  Banned substance period.  At least with the positive drug test he will not be driving a CDL required truck any time soon.


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## daybeers (Mar 3, 2019)

Fair point, but having THC in one's bloodstream does _not_ mean they were actually intoxicated at the time of the test. This is even more true when it comes to urine and hair tests, where it can be detected anywhere from 30-90 days after marijuana use.


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## Thirdrail7 (Mar 3, 2019)

I suspect that Just-Thinking's thought process may be correct. From a railroad point of view, some of the employees involved in the incident at Chester with the MOW equipment tested positive for banned substances. Even though the NTSB stated this did not in anyway contribute to the incident, it still broke the  federal substance rules. 

As such, the engineer lost his certification.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 3, 2019)

daybeers said:


> Fair point, but having THC in one's bloodstream does _not_ mean they were actually intoxicated at the time of the test. This is even more true when it comes to urine and hair tests, where it can be detected anywhere from 30-90 days after marijuana use.




That’s why hair drug test are so popular.  Much longer of a history.  Zero tolerance for truckers.  He may not of been convicted of DWI, but he failed a drug test that will follow him for the next 10 years if he try’s to drive a truck again.


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## Mike G (Mar 22, 2019)

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB1903.pdf


MODERATOR NOTE: This NTSB report was merged with the existing thread on this topic.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Mar 22, 2019)

Thanks for the link to the final report. Driver had a history of issues with his CDL and general motor vehicle operation. The employer was not in compliance too. Bad combination of events.

Have a pulse will drive. Is a joke, but it getting too close to be a bad joke with our current economy. CDL medical standard are changing again, too much push back for the employers. Too many driver get disqualified for medical. The job is not a healthy lifestyle for many positions.


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## daybeers (Apr 8, 2019)

This might be a "hot take" (strong opinion) for this board, but IMO the federal substance requirements are silly. I understand there is no surefire way to check if one is under the influence of something other than alcohol except a blood test, which are unreliable at best and can't detect for very long after ingestion, but what about someone who is an alcoholic? Federal agencies will most likely never find out. Someone who likes to have a bit of weed to calm down after a hard day's work is very similar to someone who likes a beer after work, but the former is illegal and the latter legal. Truly silly, but this is also not the topic to get into detail on all that.


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## Thirdrail7 (Feb 9, 2020)

dgvrengineer said:


> Truck driver in that incident was just in court on manslaughter charges. He was found Not Guilty. Maybe this will be the end of the legal stuff and the equipment can be released for service.





Thirdrail7 said:


> Not likely. This is just one round out of many. A brief fair use quote will show the ugly truth:
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/truck-driver-found-not-guilty-in-crash-with-chartered-train/2019/02/28/eb8e55b4-3b5f-11e9-b10b-f05a22e75865_story.html?noredirect=on&amp;utm_term=.91a5c343a88f
> 
> ...



Well, the battle rages on. Not only are they going after the driver and the company, but they are also going after the "conductor."

Five men sue driver of trash truck struck by Amtrak in 2018
https://www.dailyprogress.com/news/...cle_6f7f15a9-4c51-57d7-9009-0573ed925192.html



> Two years after a train carrying a Republican congressional delegation collided with a trash truck, five more passengers have filed lawsuits targeting the driver, trash company and the* train conductor.*
> 
> My eyebrows went up when I read this. Why the heck would they go after the conductor? I continued reading and came across this:
> 
> ...


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## Night Ranger (Feb 9, 2020)

Chuck Fleischmann is the rep for our district. Before going to Congress, he was a slip and fall lawyer who passed himself off as a "small businessman." Per reports that I hazily recall from at least a year ago, he has already settled with Amtrak or the trucking company or both for a rumored 6 figures. Details were under seal at the time of course and he danced around questions about it during his last campaign. 

A collision involving a slip and fall lawyer turned congress critter must be one of the all time worst combination for the defendants in a lawsuit.


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