# NEC VA services



## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

How to make NEC - VA service better? First make the schedule simplify & easier to read and use less train numbers. Second adding one train to Norfolk/Lynchburg.

Boston/New York - Richmond/Newport News/Norfolk daily

BOS. NYP. PHI. WAS. FBG. RVR. NPN. NFK

67. 9:30p. 3:00a. 4:30a 7:00a 8:05a. 9:08a.11:15a -----

95. 6:00a.10:30a12:00p2:30p 3:35p.4:45p. ------ 7:00p

99. 8:30a 1:00p 2:30p 5:00p 6:05p 7:15p. 9:00p ------

125. ------ 12:00p 1:30p 4:00p. 5:05p. 6:10p. ------ 8:45p

93. 10:00a 2:30p 4:00p 6:30p 7:35p. 8:40p. ------ -------

85. ------ 4:00p 5:30p 8:00p 9:05p. 10:10p ------ -------

NFK. NPN RVR. FBG. WAS PHI. NYP. BOS

86 ------------ 6:00a. 7:05a 8:35a10:35a12:30p5:00p

174. 5:45a. ----- 8:00a. 9:05a10:35a12:35p2:30p 7:00p

94. ------- 7:20a10:00a11:05a12:35p2:30p4:30p. 9:00p

84. --------------12:00p 1:05p 2:35p 4:30p 6:30p-------

194. 1:40p ------ 4:00p 5:05p 6:35p 8:30p10:00p-------

66. ------ 5:20p 7:30p 8:35p 10:00p12:00a2:15a 7:00a

Boston/New York-Lynchburg daily

BOS. NYP. PHI. WAS. MSS. LYB

171. 8:00a. 12:30p 2:00p4:30p 5:30p 8:00p

119. ------ 4:00a 5:30a 8:00a 9:00a11:30a

LYB. MSS. WAS. PHI. NYP. BOS.

176. 7:30a10:00a11:30a1:30p3:30p6:30p

120. 4:30p7:00p 8:30p10:30p12:00a------


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## Anderson (Sep 2, 2015)

I've reformatted the timetables you produced to (1) clean up the spacing (code boxes are useful in this respect, but it took me a while to master using them) and (2) correct station codes (Philadelphia is PHL, Lynchburg is LYH). Here you go:


```
BOS    NYP    PHL    WAS    FBG    RVR    NPN    NFK
67.  9:30p  3:00a  4:30a  7:00a  8:05a  9:08a  11:15a -------
95.  6:00a  10:30a 12:00p 2:30p  3:35p  4:45p  ------ 7:00p
125. ------ 12:00p 1:30p  4:00p  5:05p  6:10p  ------ 8:45p
99.  8:30a  1:00p  2:30p  5:00p  6:05p  7:15p  9:00p  -------
93.  10:00a 2:30p  4:00p  6:30p  7:35p  8:40p  ------ -------
85.  ------ 4:00p  5:30p  8:00p  9:05p  10:10p ------ -------
     NFK.   NPN    RVR    FBG    WAS    PHL    NYP    BOS
86   ------ ------ 6:00a  7:05a  8:35a  10:35a 12:30p 5:00p
174. 5:45a  ------ 8:00a  9:05a  10:35a 12:35p 2:30p  7:00p
94.  ------ 7:20a  10:00a 11:05a 12:35p 2:30p  4:30p  9:00p
84.  ------ ------ 12:00p 1:05p  2:35p  4:30p  6:30p  -------
194. 1:40p  ------ 4:00p  5:05p  6:35p  8:30p  10:00p -------
66.  ------ 5:20p  7:30p  8:35p  10:00p 12:00a 2:15a  7:00a

Boston/New York-Lynchburg daily
     BOS    NYP    PHL    WAS    MSS    LYH
119. ------ 4:00a  5:30a  8:00a  9:00a  11:30a
171. 8:00a  12:30p 2:00p  4:30p  5:30p  8:00p
     LYH    MSS    WAS    PHL    NYP    BOS
176. 7:30a  10:00a 11:30a 1:30p  3:30p  6:30p
120. 4:30p  7:00p  8:30p  10:30p 12:00a ------
```


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## Anderson (Sep 2, 2015)

Comments on the above:
-I would move one of the NFK trains later, so as to allow a post-5 PM departure from Washington, even if it involves shuffling another Regional into WAS with more padding to have that train leave right after 171. I'd also make sure that 171 had a post-5 PM departure from WAS...probably 5:10 and 5:15 or something similarly tight.

-You probably have 30-45 minutes of extra time between NPN and RVR on 94. Right now, 94 leaves NPN at 0915 and leaves RVR at 1109. That gives you a choice: An 0720 departure from NPN gets you into RVM by 0900, which would be good. You could dump the padding in at WAS, you can slide the whole schedule earlier by 30-40 minutes, or you can slide the NPN departure later (to about 0800).

-Cutting the 0700 from RVR is probably a mistake. The 1200 should probably go there...the Silver Star presently fills in that slot pretty nicely. In fact, I'll try to work out the "full" timecard (Silver Service trains alongside these) when I have a little more time, but the times to/from RVR are as follows:
Silver Meteor: 0432 NB, 2134 SB

Silver Star: 1215 NB, 1707 SB

Carolinian: 1412 NB, 1259 SB

Palmetto: 1714 NB, 1207 SB

--Oddly, I kind of like your version of 85 (nudging the "cleanup train" a little later isn't a horrid idea IMHO, though I'm not sure how much demand there is for one that late versus the present schedule).


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

Remember silver star & meteor/ palmetto don't make all Stops

I know I give extra time in WAS and remember they switch engines. I agree I could cut back some time I just tried to do is i when on how much give the schedule now.


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

Thank you cleaning up the schedule. Fixing the 2stations code I didn't think about check that I just when on what I thought they was.


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## WestBerkeleyFlats (Sep 2, 2015)

The second train to Lynchburg has been funded, but why will the northbound morning train still arrive at DC around noon?

http://www.cvilletomorrow.org/news/article/21895-train-advocate-marks-success-of-daily-passenger-se/


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

Hey thought what you said about 171. Remember you got crescent behind that

171 WAS 4:30p LYH 8:00p BOS-LYH

19 WAS 6:30p LYH 10:00p NYP-NOL

119 WAS 8:00a LYH 11:30a. NYP-LYH

20 LYH 5:50a WAS 9:53a. NOL-NYP

171 LYB 7:30a WAS 11:30a LYH-BOS

120 LYH 4:30p WAS 8:30p LYH-NYP


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

Anderson said:


> Comments on the above:
> 
> -I would move one of the NFK trains later, so as to allow a post-5 PM departure from Washington, even if it involves shuffling another Regional into WAS with more padding to have that train leave right after 171. I'd also make sure that 171 had a post-5 PM departure from WAS...probably 5:10 and 5:15 or something similarly tight.
> 
> ...


I agree I cleaned it up some I take away the extra like 30-40mins away to/from RVR-NPN/NFK, 5mins away from WAS on most trains. I think looks better!

67 BOS 9:30p WAS 7:00a RVR 9:05a NPN 11:10a

95 BOS 6:00a WAS 2:30p RVR 4:40p NFK 6:40p

99 BOS 8:30a WAS 5:00p RVR 7:10a NPN 9:10p

125 NYP 12:00p WAS 4:00p RVR 6:05p NFK 8:40p

93 BOS 10:00a WAS 6:30p RVR 8:35p

85 NYP 4:00p WAS 8:00p RVR 10:05p

86 RVR 6:00a WAS 8:30a NYP 12:30p BOS 5:00p

174 NFK 6:00a RVR 8:05a WAS 2:30p BOS 7:00p

94 NPN 8:00a RVR 10:05a WAS 12:30p BOS 9:00p

84 RVR 12:00p WAS 2:30p NYP 6:00p

194 NFK 2:00p RVR 4:05p WAS 6:30p NYP 10:00p

66 NPN 5:20p RVR 7:30p WAS 10:00p BOS 7:00a


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## afigg (Sep 2, 2015)

WestBerkeleyFlats said:


> The second train to Lynchburg has been funded, but why will the northbound morning train still arrive at DC around noon?


The current Lynchburg Regional is likely to be extended to Roanoke and park there overnight. So it would depart Roanoke pretty early, circa 6:10 AM, to match up with the current 7:38 AM #176 departure northbound from LYH. Which arrives at WAS at 11:20 AM, before noon. The AM departure from LYH is working, don't see why VA DRPT and Amtrak would want to change it by much.

VA DRPT has a $9.2 million "Lynchburg to Alexandria Speed Improvements" project (funded in FY14, FY15) and a $31.6 million "Nokesville to Calverton Double Tracks" project for the NS route, so the LYH to ALX/WAS trip time may be a bit faster by or not long after the Roanoke service starts.

The second Regional service to LYH is what should provide better options for a WAS to LYH trip and a afternoon northbound departure from LYH. Don't know what VA DRPT and Amtrak are really considering, but a daytime Regional that runs from NYP/WAS to LYH arriving LYH circa mid-day, layovers for 2-3 hours for quick servicing. and then returns the same day back to WAS and gets into NYP late evening would be what I would go for.


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## afigg (Sep 2, 2015)

mlhughes0522 said:


> How to make NEC - VA service better? First make the schedule simplify & easier to read and use less train numbers. Second adding one train to Norfolk/Lynchburg.


It should be noted that the VA DRPT Six year improvement plan budgets don't add the second train to NFK until FY2020. There is the small matter of a $132 million project for Richmond Staples Mill to Petersburg CSX track upgrades in order for CSX to allow 2 additional daily trains to NFK. So the second train to NFK is some years off.


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

afigg said:


> mlhughes0522 said:
> 
> 
> > How to make NEC - VA service better? First make the schedule simplify & easier to read and use less train numbers. Second adding one train to Norfolk/Lynchburg.
> ...


I forgot about csx doing track work. Ur right second train won't happen.


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

afigg said:


> WestBerkeleyFlats said:
> 
> 
> > The second train to Lynchburg has been funded, but why will the northbound morning train still arrive at DC around noon?
> ...


That's true with my plans

119 would arrive to Roanoke 1p 120 would depart from Roanoke 3:00p

171 would arrive to Roanoke 9:20p 176 would depart from Roanoke 6:00a

That's not that bad 119/120 is 2hrs apart and if just starts to/from LYH 119/120 is 4-5hrs apart is not bad either.


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## Carolina Special (Sep 2, 2015)

My issue with the current Lynchburg train is that it leaves a couple of hours later on weekends. Makes it tough to get to a Sunday game at Nationals Park when the train arrives in DC at game time of 1:35. I've tried...

Anyone know why it runs later on weekends than on weekdays?


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

Carolina Special said:


> My issue with the current Lynchburg train is that it leaves a couple of hours later on weekends. Makes it tough to get to a Sunday game at Nationals Park when the train arrives in DC at game time of 1:35. I've tried...
> 
> Anyone know why it runs later on weekends than on weekdays?


That's one of the reason my plans would be is to have schedule would be daily schedule not weekday/weekend So Saturday or Sunday if one of the sports teams is play like 1pm nationals/redskins/wizards in town catch the train.

To catch games you would 176 7:30a WAS then catch 19 to come back to LYH. That departs WAS 6:30p to LYH by 10:00p.

Or 171 that would depart 4:30p WAS would get into 8:00p LYH.


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## afigg (Sep 2, 2015)

Carolina Special said:


> My issue with the current Lynchburg train is that it leaves a couple of hours later on weekends. Makes it tough to get to a Sunday game at Nationals Park when the train arrives in DC at game time of 1:35. I've tried...
> 
> Anyone know why it runs later on weekends than on weekdays?


The thinking presumably is so people in LYH and CVS don't have to leave so early on weekends, especially Sunday morning. I expect the schedule also matched up to an existing weekend afternoon WAS-NYP Regional when it was first set. Getting to DC early enough for a Nats home game likely was never a consideration.

#156 is scheduled to arrive at Alexandria at 1:21 PM, so for a trip to the Nationals Park, it would be faster to get off at ALX, walk under the bridge to the King St Metro station, take the Yellow Line to L'Enfant Plaza, then Green line to the Navy Yard. Even without weekend track work (and those are rare weekends in the summer), that would still get to the Navy Yard after the start of the Sunday afternoon games.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 2, 2015)

mlhughes0522 said:


> Carolina Special said:
> 
> 
> > My issue with the current Lynchburg train is that it leaves a couple of hours later on weekends. Makes it tough to get to a Sunday game at Nationals Park when the train arrives in DC at game time of 1:35. I've tried...
> ...



Carolina Special:

The reason why there are different times on the weekends (which incidentally results in the different train numbers MLHughes seems to think needs simplifying) is the very reason a cursory evaluation indicates his plan is off. Trains don't just "plop" onto the rails. This is particularly true in the Northeast, where many railroads operate and trains that traverse multiple territories must fit in.

On that basis, some railroads have different track profiles and slots on different days. An example of this is train 67 during the weekday is slotted to deal with MARC's rush hour traffic, Acela service and VRE's inbound traffic. On the weekend, these aren't an issue, so it has a different running time to reflect the operational times.

The NYT district and Metro-North have different operational profiles on weekends which I can immediately see that MLhughes' proposal for train 95, 93 and 171 on the weekends would not fit. 156 leaves LYH later on weekends because it had to find a slot to assume in the weekend operational profile over the NEC. So it assumed the slot of an existing profile. If you look at the new timetable, you'll see 194 has been renumbered and retimed on Saturdays. This is because a new Acela was added over Metro-North's territory. This caused 194 to lose its slot as Metro-North would not allow both trains to operate in the same time frame.

Additionally, I see immediately problems with 125,99 and 85 during the weekdays since they are timed in the exact slots as Acelas 2117, 2159 and 2165 respectively. Moving these trains may impact NJT and MARC where capacity is tight at the times two out of three of these trains run.

CSX is notoriously stingy with its slots and seeing how long it took them to finally agree to allow the Meteor to stop at FBG, I don't see them allowing a great deal of movement on their territory until the next operating agreement is reached. Therefore, I see train 120 from LYH running into problems since it pretty much mirrors the projected train 90/198 combination. Even if that plan does not come to fruition, you'll have 90, 120 and 198 all on each others heels on the NEC.

Another thing left out is balancing of manpower and equipment. An example is you changing 84's arrival time in NYP. That set turns for 193. What are you doing to compensate? It seems that you plan to turn train 119 for train 120 at LYH. Without the crews even signing up in advance of the trains arrival, that crew's on duty exceeds 12 hours and your proposal does not allow for a respite even if the trains are on time. Are you using two crews for this trip? Are you making another crew base? As for servicing the equipment for your "quick turn" is there actually a means and personnel in place to facilitate a "quick turn?" It seems to me that you'd have make sure a daylight servicing crew is there to inspect, clean and turn the train. This would be in addition to the crew that is required to service the other set at night. Will these potential costs make it worthwhile to have staggered service? As unfortunate as it is, sometimes it makes more sense from an operational standpoint to have your trains "bunched" to facilitate servicing.

Again, I don't have a train manuscript in front of me and this largely of the cuff but I see issues. I haven't even considered the overtakes and meets on some of the train and how it may impact the commuter operations. So, your proposal may work wonders for VA, but it may create havoc for other states and hosts.

There must be balance.


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## railiner (Sep 2, 2015)

Leaving later on weekends is not just a NEC phenomenon....it is Amtrak practice on many other routes around the country as well....


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## Carolina Special (Sep 2, 2015)

Afigg, I did consider the Alexandria stop and Metro that day, but I didn't see much difference with going on to Union Station. Both stops require you to go into DC and change Metro lines. This was also over Memorial Day and a lot of people were headed to Arlington National Cemetery, as the conductor announced/promoted on the train, which I expected to add traffic at the Alexandria Metro stop.

The weekday train does stop at L'Enfant Plaza as part of the VRE schedule. It would be nice if Amtrak and VRE could arrange for that on weekends as well, since that stop is a straight Metro trip to the ballpark, or a quick walk to the Smithsonian museums for those inclined to tour. That one stop wouldn't blow up the whole NEC corridor slotting schedule, either.

Or Amtrak could lower the coach pricing on the Crescent from Lynchburg north to match the regional, since the premium Crescent price is hardly justified for a trip of that length, given the poor OTP and lack of Wi-Fi. Their product planners seem to be headed in the other direction, however, so I doubt that will ever happen.


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 2, 2015)

afigg said:


> Carolina Special said:
> 
> 
> > My issue with the current Lynchburg train is that it leaves a couple of hours later on weekends. Makes it tough to get to a Sunday game at Nationals Park when the train arrives in DC at game time of 1:35. I've tried...
> ...


That's why like My plan better. If people want to take later train LYH/CVS that's why 120 would depart 4:30p from LYH daily.

Also on game days most people want to leave early make you can get to games on time.

I was thinking on games days 171 won't depart WAS 5:15p-5:30p that just means you would get home to LYH 9p


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## mlhughes0522 (Sep 3, 2015)

Thirdrail7 said:


> mlhughes0522 said:
> 
> 
> > Carolina Special said:
> ...


Let me clear up some points you made.

171 departs from BOS 8:00a arriving to LYH 8:00p daily i know 99 would only 30mins apart but 99 is going to RVR/NFK by 2018/2019.

119 departs from NYP 4:00a arriving to LYH 11:30a daily & that would cut out 151

176 departs from LYH 7:30a arriving to BOS 7:30p daily & that would cut 88 out because 174 NFK 6:00a WAS 10:30a BOS 7:00p would be daily.

120 departs from LYH 4:30p WAS 8:30p Arriving to NYP 12:00a daily & that would cut 198. Problem solved there.

90 depart from WAS 7:40p

So 174/120/90 would 50-60mins away so they won't be back to back.

Crews for VA services would work out of WAS for LYH A 19/176 B 119/120 C 171/20 D off

171 3:30-8:30p 171/3:30a-11:30a on for 20. 19 5:30-10:30p/ 176 6:30-11:45a. 119 7:00a-12:00p/120 3:30p-8:30p


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## afigg (Sep 3, 2015)

Carolina Special said:


> The weekday train does stop at L'Enfant Plaza as part of the VRE schedule. It would be nice if Amtrak and VRE could arrange for that on weekends as well, since that stop is a straight Metro trip to the ballpark, or a quick walk to the Smithsonian museums for those inclined to tour. That one stop wouldn't blow up the whole NEC corridor slotting schedule, either.
> 
> Or Amtrak could lower the coach pricing on the Crescent from Lynchburg north to match the regional, since the premium Crescent price is hardly justified for a trip of that length, given the poor OTP and lack of Wi-Fi. Their product planners seem to be headed in the other direction, however, so I doubt that will ever happen.


I hadn't thought about the Lynchburg Regional stopping at L'Enfant plaza. That is a hidden stop on the schedule. Above ground, L'Enfant Plaza is pretty close to dead on weekends, with only a scattering of tourists staying at the few hotels nearby. It is almost all office space around it. A VA Regional stopping there on Sunday would have very few people getting on or off. As for getting to Nationals Park. if I were traveling north on Amtrak (and the train did not stop at L'Enfant), I would get off at Alexandria and take the Metro Yellow Line from King Street. On a normal weekday or weekend, will be the faster and shorter way to get to the ballpark. Besides going north of the Nationals Park, takes time to disembark, go up the escalator and get to the Metro station at Union Station.

With regards to the higher Crescent pricing for trips between CVS & LYH and WAS, that is intentional and was introduced when the Regional started service to LYH. Amtrak wants to steer people to take the Regional for the short CVS-WAS trips so they can keep the seats open on the Crescent for longer range trips between the NEC and Greensboro, Charlotte NC, Atlanta, etc.


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## Thirdrail7 (Sep 20, 2015)

mlhughes0522 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> > mlhughes0522 said:
> ...



I forgot all about this tread. Let's see if I can rack my brains here.

With the weekend operating profile on both Metro-North and Amtrak, a westbound train Amtrak train cannot leave NYP at 30 past the hour. In fact, it can't leave after roughly 18 minutes after they hour. This is why some trains have different numbers and times on the weekends and why 95, 93 and 171 can;t not depart as you listed above on the weekends. You'd have to retime them and make sure they left NHV between 09 and 15 to fit Metro-North's profile.

As for 151, 119, 176 and 88, I never really commented on those trains other than to express concerns about crewing in LYH. Since I don't have a complete listing of how those trains are crewed, I defer to your crew plan.

I did comment on 198, 90 and 120 and that my still be an issue. To have 90 depart earlier, you'd need CSX to run it a little earlier and as previously noted, that may be an issue.

The bigger issue is there is only one thing standing in the way of the concepts that were discussed in the Amtrak replacing 2 northeast regional trains with Palmetto?? thread from occurring...and that may be remedied quite soon. As such, 90/198 would have 120 on its heels, unless 120 runs earlier or CSX allows 90 to run earlier.


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