# Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation



## AmtrakBlue

First diner, Annapolis, went into revenue service on 12/5/16. Currently assigned to 97/98.

_Moderation note: This topic continues the discussion from the original Viewliner II topic. The original topic can be found at:_

_Viewliner II - Part 1 - Baggage Cars_

_A third topic discussing the Bag Dorm cars can be found at:_

_Viewliner II - Part 3 - Bag Dorm Cars_


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## AmtrakBlue

First pics posted here: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/45804-viewliner-ii-production-status-photos/page-179&do=findComment&comment=689780


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## Mystic River Dragon

Oh, how lovely! 

Does this mean it is assigned to 97/98 permanently, and I will get to eat in it at the end of January? Or would it switch to different trains, like the test one did?


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## neroden

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh, how lovely!
> 
> Does this mean it is assigned to 97/98 permanently, and I will get to eat in it at the end of January? Or would it switch to different trains, like the test one did?


Remember there are four trains running at any given time on 97/98, so you have a 1/4 chance of getting it.


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## Mystic River Dragon

oh drat--I forgot about the odds. Oh, well, maybe I'll get lucky and it will be the dining car on my trip! 

On a separate note, about the names--I believe I read that Trenton was the only capital name not being used. Is this because nobody wants to dine in something named after the capital of New Jersey and was done on purpose? Or did they just put all the names in a hat and that was the one that lost out?


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## jis

And also remember, nothing is ever permanent. It is the way it is until it isn't anymore.


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## afigg

Mystic River Dragon said:


> On a separate note, about the names--I believe I read that Trenton was the only capital name not being used. Is this because nobody wants to dine in something named after the capital of New Jersey and was done on purpose? Or did they just put all the names in a hat and that was the one that lost out?


Trenton lost out because the Viewliner II diner names were assigned in alphabetical order for state capitals east of the Mississippi. Check the list of assigned and planned names for the Viewliners at On-Track On-Line. The diner names start with Albany and run through Tallahasee. Of course, Amtrak could change the naming scheme and, say, drop Frankfurt KY, because it is not as if Kentucky is a hotbed of Amtrak support and service.


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## jis

OTOH, I don;t think not having a Diner named Trenton will even be noticed by supporters of Amtrak in NJ  Until we make a fuss about it. And even after that I do not foresee a sudden drop in support either.


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## Mystic River Dragon

afigg said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a separate note, about the names--I believe I read that Trenton was the only capital name not being used. Is this because nobody wants to dine in something named after the capital of New Jersey and was done on purpose? Or did they just put all the names in a hat and that was the one that lost out?
> 
> 
> 
> Trenton lost out because the Viewliner II diner names were assigned in alphabetical order for state capitals east of the Mississippi. Check the list of assigned and planned names for the Viewliners at On-Track On-Line. The diner names start with Albany and run through Tallahasee. Of course, Amtrak could change the naming scheme and, say, drop Frankfurt KY, because it is not as if Kentucky is a hotbed of Amtrak support and service.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. Thanks, afigg--I had wondered how the decision had been made.



jis said:


> OTOH, I don;t think not having a Diner named Trenton will even be noticed by supporters of Amtrak in NJ  Until we make a fuss about it. And even after that I do not foresee a sudden drop in support either.


I somehow don't see any train travelers from New Jersey who have to go through TRE complaining about not having a "Trenton" dining car :giggle: .


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## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, I don;t think not having a Diner named Trenton will even be noticed by supporters of Amtrak in NJ  Until we make a fuss about it. And even after that I do not foresee a sudden drop in support either.
> 
> 
> 
> I somehow don't see any train travelers from New Jersey who have to go through TRE complaining about not having a "Trenton" dining car :giggle: .
Click to expand...

Indeed! LOL!


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## neroden

afigg said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a separate note, about the names--I believe I read that Trenton was the only capital name not being used. Is this because nobody wants to dine in something named after the capital of New Jersey and was done on purpose? Or did they just put all the names in a hat and that was the one that lost out?
> 
> 
> 
> Trenton lost out because the Viewliner II diner names were assigned in alphabetical order for state capitals east of the Mississippi. Check the list of assigned and planned names for the Viewliners at On-Track On-Line. The diner names start with Albany and run through Tallahasee. Of course, Amtrak could change the naming scheme and, say, drop Frankfurt KY, because it is not as if Kentucky is a hotbed of Amtrak support and service.
Click to expand...

If I were at Amtrak, I'd skip Madison and replace it with Trenton.

My logic: that way it would include the state capitals for all the states which are likely to retain single-level train service.

They didn't strictly go with "east of the Mississippi" anyway; St. Paul, MN is east of the Mississippi, but it got skipped.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

Just reading an older thread there, and I was wondering...

Did the solve the "tail wagging" problem of the Viewliner I sleepers? Or will Viewliner II sleepers still have this problem, if they are located at the end of a consist?

I remember Amtrak attempting to solve this, by putting a heritage baggage car after the last Viewliner I sleeper. But now the baggage cars themselves, are Viewliners.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

neroden said:


> afigg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trenton lost out because the Viewliner II diner names were assigned in alphabetical order for state capitals east of the Mississippi. Check the list of assigned and planned names for the Viewliners at On-Track On-Line. The diner names start with Albany and run through Tallahasee.
> 
> 
> 
> They didn't strictly go with "east of the Mississippi" anyway; St. Paul, MN is east of the Mississippi, but it got skipped.
Click to expand...

I guess Amtrak used this website as their reference: States and Capitals east of the Mississippi River :giggle:

Though, it is interesting that they picked a naming scheme for which their sleeper order is only one (or two) units short of matching. I guess we can officially put 100% of the blame for not including Trenton on those cheap bastards, the Senators and Congressmen from NJ, for not forking up the additional bucks to just build one more sleeper.


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## jebr

neroden said:


> They didn't strictly go with "east of the Mississippi" anyway; St. Paul, MN is east of the Mississippi, but it got skipped.


Depending on where you are in St. Paul, you could be either west, east, north, or south of the Mississippi River. Maybe Amtrak didn't want to deal with all that ambiguity and just said not to include St. Paul. (St. Paul Union Depot is more "north" of the Mississippi River, as the river runs to the south of SPUD.)


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## GaSteve

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Just reading an older thread there, and I was wondering...
> 
> Did the solve the "tail wagging" problem of the Viewliner I sleepers? Or will Viewliner II sleepers still have this problem, if they are located at the end of a consist?
> 
> I remember Amtrak attempting to solve this, by putting a heritage baggage car after the last Viewliner I sleeper. But now the baggage cars themselves, are Viewliners.


The Silver Service and Crescent consists have been running the sleepers in the front for some time now.

Hmmm... Just noticed on the other thread that the sleepers have been moved to the rear on Silver trains. Don't know about the Crescent, but its consists differ slightly because of the Business Class coach.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

GaSteve said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just reading an older thread there, and I was wondering...
> 
> Did the solve the "tail wagging" problem of the Viewliner I sleepers? Or will Viewliner II sleepers still have this problem, if they are located at the end of a consist?
> 
> I remember Amtrak attempting to solve this, by putting a heritage baggage car after the last Viewliner I sleeper. But now the baggage cars themselves, are Viewliners.
> 
> 
> 
> The Silver Service and Crescent consists have been running the sleepers in the front for some time now.Hmmm... Just noticed on the other thread that the sleepers have been moved to the rear on Silver trains. Don't know about the Crescent, but its consists differ slightly because of the Business Class coach.
Click to expand...

Yea, there is the older thread, Normal For Sleepers On Rear And Coach In Front? And the today's thread, Star and Meteor Consist Flip

That's what got me thinking if the Viewliner II Sleeper's will still have this problem, and if the Viewliner II Baggage cars would still offer the same work-around.


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## DCAKen

In the Nov/Dec issue of Amtrak Ink, in the Ask Wick section is this nugget:



> _Do you know when the new single level long-distance cars
> will be entered into service?_
> 
> This obviously has been a real problem for us in that the cars we
> ordered from CAF have been late in delivery and are getting later. We
> do have all of the new baggage cars on line now and we’re waiting for
> the new diners, the first of which is due out later this year. [NOTE:
> Amtrak conditionally accepted CAF’s first delivered car on Nov. 7.
> The remaining cars are scheduled to be delivered between August
> 2017 and September 2018.]


That's a long wait until the deliveries start up.


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## Seaboard92

It really doesn't matter what type of car it is. The end of the train will always have tail wagging.


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## A Voice

Eight more months? That's really bad, and I'm usually one of the defenders of the Viewliner II program.

I hope that August date refers to the other car types, sleepers and baggage-dorms, rather than to the diners, and they'll arrive much sooner (wasn't February mentioned?). The note is worded a bit poorly anyway (November 7th marked conditional acceptance of the first diner, not the actual first CAF car), but taken literally, it means no more diners until August.


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## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> It really doesn't matter what type of car it is. The end of the train will always have tail wagging.


That is why they put the baggage car at the tail when the Sleepers are in the rear of the train, so that it can wag away and lull the bags to sleep.


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## Ryan

Seaboard92 said:


> It really doesn't matter what type of car it is. The end of the train will always have tail wagging.


This.

I sat in the last row of the last car on 19 once. But only once, it was awful.


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## Thirdrail7

DCAKen said:


> In the Nov/Dec issue of Amtrak Ink, in the Ask Wick section is this nugget:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Do you know when the new single level long-distance cars_
> 
> will be entered into service?
> 
> This obviously has been a real problem for us in that the cars we
> 
> ordered from CAF have been late in delivery and are getting later. We
> 
> do have all of the new baggage cars on line now and we’re waiting for
> 
> the new diners, the first of which is due out later this year. [NOTE:
> 
> Amtrak conditionally accepted CAF’s first delivered car on Nov. 7.
> 
> The remaining cars are scheduled to be delivered between August
> 
> 2017 and September 2018.]
> 
> 
> 
> That's a long wait until the deliveries start up.
Click to expand...




A Voice said:


> Eight more months? That's really bad, and I'm usually one of the defenders of the Viewliner II program.
> 
> I hope that August date refers to the other car types, sleepers and baggage-dorms, rather than to the diners, and they'll arrive much sooner (wasn't February mentioned?). The note is worded a bit poorly anyway (November 7th marked conditional acceptance of the first diner, not the actual first CAF car), but taken literally, it means no more diners until August.


I suspect those dates reflect the next class of cars (bag dorm or sleeper) entering service and remaining class (bag dorm or sleeper) to enter service.


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## Ryan

> This thread is working ok imho as long as we stay close to the topic. I check back every time there is a blue dot on my phone next this topic. It's annoying to then find a photo of the city of Annapolis rather than the dining car Annapolis.


What if Annapolis (the diner) was in Annapolis (the city)?


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## tommylicious

Ha! Great one! Has anyone dined on Annapolis yet? Looking forward to a review.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

Ryan said:


> This thread is working ok imho as long as we stay close to the topic. I check back every time there is a blue dot on my phone next this topic. It's annoying to then find a photo of the city of Annapolis rather than the dining car Annapolis.
> 
> 
> 
> What if Annapolis (the diner) was in Annapolis (the city)?
Click to expand...

I guess we are simply going to have to accept, that these types of posts are going to repeat here, for each and every new dining car. 

Thank &deity that Trenton didn't make the list.


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## Ryan

Only if you're lucky!


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## Palmland

Guess I'm a lone wolf on this. I prefer sleepers on the rear. I was on the Crescent a few years ago and loved standing at the rear window as we negotiated the curves in northern Virginia. I didn't find objectionable the occasional lurch. And, as a railfan, you can't beat the view. Likewise a ride on the rear sleeper on the Texas Eagle/Sunset and EB to Portland I did not notice any problem with a rough ride.

But then I grew up riding sleepers that were almost always on the rear on 15-20 car trains pre-Amtrak. The Pullman company had sleepers on the rear to facilitate intermediate set offs/pick ups and to have shorter walk for Pullman passengers when boarding at terminals with the train on stub tracks and the rear next to the station. The main exceptions were trains that were ordered as coach streamliners with a coach observation on the rear but later sleepers were added to the head end - eg. Silver Meteor, South Wind. The baggage cars were on the head end so that all the activity with 'working' those cars didn't interfere with sleeper switching and /or boarding. At some intermediate stops, cars at both end of the train would be switched. Of course with Amtrak there is very little intermediate activity.


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## west point

Palmland said:


> But then I grew up riding sleepers that were almost always on the rear on 15-20 car trains pre-Amtrak. The Pullman company had sleepers on the rear to facilitate intermediate set offs/pick ups and to have shorter walk for Pullman passengers when boarding at terminals with the train on stub tracks and the rear next to the station.
> 
> The baggage cars were on the head end so that all the activity with 'working' those cars didn't interfere with sleeper switching and /or boarding. At some intermediate stops, cars at both end of the train would be switched. Of course with Amtrak there is very little intermediate activity.


My ancestors told me that at my home town north and southbound trains arrived in the morning three Pullmans would be removed from end of each train. As well Express cars were removed from front of both trains. Probably because Pullman needed to rotate cars the morning southbound cars would go on the evening southbound train and morning northbound cars on the evening northbound.


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## GaSteve

"I was on the Crescent a few years ago and loved standing at the rear window as we negotiated the curves in northern Virginia"

Obviously before the bag was the last car.


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## sitzplatz17

Just spotted 98 with the new diner in Winter Park, FL.

Greetings from Florida! 

Was hoping the Mrs. and I would get it on the way down on 97 yesterday.. alas now I know where it was!


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Amtrak has begun advertising the new cars...

http://blog.amtrak.com/2016/12/sneak-peek-of-new-dining-cars/


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## OlympianHiawatha

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Amtrak has begun advertising the new cars...
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2016/12/sneak-peek-of-new-dining-cars/


Are the flowers back for real or were they just part of the photo-shoot set?


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## railiner

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Amtrak has begun advertising the new cars...
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2016/12/sneak-peek-of-new-dining-cars/


I see from the photo that the lower windows have a mesh-type pull down shade, but not the upper windows...I could imagine that a bright sun could be an annoyance under some circumstances.

Hate to have a valid reason to encourage the wearing of a baseball cap to the table....


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## Cho Cho Charlie

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has begun advertising the new cars...
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2016/12/sneak-peek-of-new-dining-cars/
> 
> 
> 
> Are the flowers back for real or were they just part of the photo-shoot set?
Click to expand...

Is the fluffy Railroad French Toast the waitress is carrying back for real in the SM?


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## tommylicious

Are all the diners in that photo Asian? Tour group?


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## Palmetto

OlympianHiawatha said:


> Philly Amtrak Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak has begun advertising the new cars...
> 
> http://blog.amtrak.com/2016/12/sneak-peek-of-new-dining-cars/
> 
> 
> 
> Are the flowers back for real or were they just part of the photo-shoot set?
Click to expand...

I reported a couple of months ago that there were fake flowers on the Crescent in July.


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## xyzzy

Can't help noticing that Viewliner II diners _Montgomery, Nashville_, and _Tallahassee_ will be named for cities that once had Amtrak service but no longer do. Also ironic that Viewliner II diner _Raleigh_ will never be seen on the Silver Star running through its namesake city.


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## Steve4031

Never say never. It's not guaranteed that the star will never have diners.


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## Thirdrail7

They should say new dining "car" until they receive another one.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

Thirdrail7 said:


> They should say new dining "car" until they receive another one.


There is the 8400 too, or doesn't that Viewliner Diner count anymore?


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## Philly Amtrak Fan

Is the Viewliner Diner now permanent (well at least "Amtrak" permanent) on the Meteor? If so, could the Lake Shore Limited at least get a Heritage diner back before the second Viewliner Diner goes out to service?


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## GaSteve

xyzzy said:


> Can't help noticing that Viewliner II diners _Montgomery, Nashville_, and _Tallahassee_ will be named for cities that once had Amtrak service but no longer do. Also ironic that Viewliner II diner _Raleigh_ will never be seen on the Silver Star running through its namesake city.


With enough cars in service, the Star could get its diner back. Part of the issue right now is a logistical one - there simply are not enough diners to go around.

As for names, remember that Annapolis, for instance, never had Amtrak service.


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## GaSteve

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Is the Viewliner Diner now permanent (well at least "Amtrak" permanent) on the Meteor? If so, could the Lake Shore Limited at least get a Heritage diner back before the second Viewliner Diner goes out to service?


Not likely. One additional car is not sufficient. You'd need to have enough additional ones in service to provide one for each train set. And, I imagine that the newly delivered diners will replace Heritage cars before any new routes are added.


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## A Voice

Philly Amtrak Fan said:


> Is the Viewliner Diner now permanent (well at least "Amtrak" permanent) on the Meteor? If so, could the Lake Shore Limited at least get a Heritage diner back before the second Viewliner Diner goes out to service?


As noted, there is thus far only the one Viewliner II diner in service among the _Silver Meteor's_ multiple (four, I believe) equipment sets; The other sets necessarily use a Heritage diner (or the 8400) so there still aren't enough cars available for the _Lake Shore_. Doesn't make sense to put a dining car back on just one set of equipment for 48/49 and leave the rest with an Amfleet II "diner lite" lounge. Give it a few months, at least.


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## jis

Also, I understand meanwhile another Heritage Diner has been removed from service. So there has been no net increase in the number of serviceable Diners yet.


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## GaSteve

jis said:


> Also, I understand meanwhile another Heritage Diner has been removed from service. So there has been no net increase in the number of serviceable Diners yet.


I expect that's what we'll see until all the Heritage cars are removed and replaced. They'll take them offline beginning with the worst ones and the net will remain the same until they're all gone.


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## neroden

To operate the Meteor and the Star Amtrak needs 13 dining cars (inlcluding a shop count for when the cars are in for regular inspection, and one "protect" car at each terminal). Apparently with Indianapolis and Annapolis in service... they only have 13 dining cars, because the active Heritage fleet is down to 10.

Restoration of dining car service on the LSL would require a total of 17 or 18 dining cars. (Although I query why the Crescent kept its service when the LSL didn't, since the LSL had higher patronage in the dining car....) How early this can happen probably depends on when various Heritage cars come due for inspections. If there are a number which were inspected very recently and are good for a year, they might not *all* be replaced before LSL dining service is restored.


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## CCC1007

neroden said:


> To operate the Meteor and the Star Amtrak needs 13 dining cars (inlcluding a shop count for when the cars are in for regular inspection, and one "protect" car at each terminal). Apparently with Indianapolis and Annapolis in service... they only have 13 dining cars, because the active Heritage fleet is down to 10.
> 
> Restoration of dining car service on the LSL would require a total of 17 or 18 dining cars. (Although I query why the Crescent kept its service when the LSL didn't, since the LSL had higher patronage in the dining car....) How early this can happen probably depends on when various Heritage cars come due for inspections. If there are a number which were inspected very recently and are good for a year, they might not *all* be replaced before LSL dining service is restored.


could you please enlighten us on how you got 13 for the star and meteor? my count would be 10, eight in service and two protect. 11 if there is one in maintenance.


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## Seaboard92

The Star needs four trainsets. Now if they would bump the Silver Meteor back to its 2001 schedule (I think that was the year) it could run with three sets. And honestly I would love to move that train back to that slot because we don't need two trains trailing each other by two hours in Florida. Plus it would give the Carolinas south daylight service to Florida.


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## Ryan

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should say new dining "car" until they receive another one.
> 
> 
> 
> There is the 8400 too, or doesn't that Viewliner Diner count anymore?
Click to expand...

The 8400 isn't new and isn't a Viewliner II.


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## jis

My understanding is that the serviceable Heritage fleet is down to 9 now, for a total fleet of 11.


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## swc34

xyzzy said:


> Can't help noticing that Viewliner II diners _Montgomery, Nashville_, and _Tallahassee_ will be named for cities that once had Amtrak service but no longer do. Also ironic that Viewliner II diner _Raleigh_ will never be seen on the Silver Star running through its namesake city.


Don't forget about Columbus.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

Ryan said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should say new dining "car" until they receive another one.
> 
> 
> 
> There is the 8400 too, or doesn't that Viewliner Diner count anymore?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The 8400 isn't new and isn't a Viewliner II.
Click to expand...

I didn't realize that 8400 was being retired with the Heritage diners. Thks.


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## OBS

I don't think they have any intention of retiring 8400.


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## Cho Cho Charlie

CCC1007 said:


> could you please enlighten us on how you got 13 for the star and meteor? my count would be 10, eight in service and two protect. 11 if there is one in maintenance.


I am kind-of wondering why the two "protect" diners, which just sit in stand-by at each terminus, couldn't be Heritage diners? I guess in the case of the Silvers, the best two Heritage diners? While I understand the need for two "protect" diners, it seems a waste to assign two brand new diners to this duty (yes, "They also serve who only stand and wait", Milton  ).


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## Cho Cho Charlie

OBS said:


> I don't think they have any intention of retiring 8400.


Then why can't it be counted in as part of the new diner car fleet?


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## jis

Why not use the less confusing terminology - "Non-Heritage Diner Fleet"?

It is indeed true that 4890 is not new by any reasonable definition of the word "new".


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## neroden

CCC1007 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> To operate the Meteor and the Star Amtrak needs 13 dining cars (inlcluding a shop count for when the cars are in for regular inspection, and one "protect" car at each terminal). Apparently with Indianapolis and Annapolis in service... they only have 13 dining cars, because the active Heritage fleet is down to 10.
> 
> Restoration of dining car service on the LSL would require a total of 17 or 18 dining cars. (Although I query why the Crescent kept its service when the LSL didn't, since the LSL had higher patronage in the dining car....) How early this can happen probably depends on when various Heritage cars come due for inspections. If there are a number which were inspected very recently and are good for a year, they might not *all* be replaced before LSL dining service is restored.
> 
> 
> 
> could you please enlighten us on how you got 13 for the star and meteor? my count would be 10, eight in service and two protect. 11 if there is one in maintenance.
Click to expand...

20% of the time in the shop for inspections and maintenance. This is about right, unfortunately, just based on FRA required inspections (it's slightly higher than the minimum time required by the FRA, as explained to me by someone who detailed all the required inspections). So 8 * 1.2 = 9.6 cars needed. One protect at each of the THREE termini (Miami, New York, and New Orleans) is 3 more (arguably 3 * 1.2 = 3.6). 9.6 + 3 = 12.6, or 9.6 + 3.6 + 13.2. Either way, 13 are needed.


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## neroden

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> I am kind-of wondering why the two "protect" diners, which just sit in stand-by at each terminus, couldn't be Heritage diners? I guess in the case of the Silvers, the best two Heritage diners? While I understand the need for two "protect" diners, it seems a waste to assign two brand new diners to this duty (yes, "They also serve who only stand and wait", Milton  ).


Sure, they can be, if they haven't been retired. So let's compute with the assumption that Amtrak wishes to retire daily-use Heritage cars ASAP but is OK with using them as protect cars. Meteor, Crescent, and LSL == 11 active. 20% shop count adds 2.2, for a total of 13.2 active *Viewliner* dining cars needed, which rounds up to 14. 4 additional protect cars, one at each terminus, could be Heritage cars.

We have 2 Viewliner dining cars active. We need 12 more.

I am a little surprised that dining car service hasn't been suspended in favor of "diner lite" on the Crescent and I suspect it might be before this winter is over...

Anyway, we have 2 Viewliner dining cars (8400 and 68001). 2 more (perhaps 68000 and 68002) will equip the Meteor, except when one is in the shop, which is 20% of the time. For that, another (perhaps 68003) is needed.

If 5 more (68004 through 68008) arrive, that would equip the Crescent, with shop count.

If 4 more (68009 through 68012) arrive, that would equip the LSL, with shop count.


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## GaSteve

neroden said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> To operate the Meteor and the Star Amtrak needs 13 dining cars (inlcluding a shop count for when the cars are in for regular inspection, and one "protect" car at each terminal). Apparently with Indianapolis and Annapolis in service... they only have 13 dining cars, because the active Heritage fleet is down to 10.
> 
> Restoration of dining car service on the LSL would require a total of 17 or 18 dining cars. (Although I query why the Crescent kept its service when the LSL didn't, since the LSL had higher patronage in the dining car....) How early this can happen probably depends on when various Heritage cars come due for inspections. If there are a number which were inspected very recently and are good for a year, they might not *all* be replaced before LSL dining service is restored.
> 
> 
> 
> could you please enlighten us on how you got 13 for the star and meteor? my count would be 10, eight in service and two protect. 11 if there is one in maintenance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 20% of the time in the shop for inspections and maintenance. This is about right, unfortunately, just based on FRA required inspections (it's slightly higher than the minimum time required by the FRA, as explained to me by someone who detailed all the required inspections). So 8 * 1.2 = 9.6 cars needed. One protect at each of the THREE termini (Miami, New York, and New Orleans) is 3 more (arguably 3 * 1.2 = 3.6). 9.6 + 3 = 12.6, or 9.6 + 3.6 + 13.2. Either way, 13 are needed.
Click to expand...

There is no protect car kept at NOL.


----------



## Ryan

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they have any intention of retiring 8400.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why can't it be counted in as part of the new diner car fleet?
Click to expand...

Because it isn't new?


----------



## JohannFarley

Ryan said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they have any intention of retiring 8400.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why can't it be counted in as part of the new diner car fleet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because it isn't new?
Click to expand...

But it was overhauled for this specific purpose was it not?


----------



## A Voice

JohannFarley said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they have any intention of retiring 8400.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why can't it be counted in as part of the new diner car fleet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because it isn't new?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But it was overhauled for this specific purpose was it not?
Click to expand...

Dining car 8400 was restored to service for the explicit purpose of having sufficient diners available to cover eastern (single-level) train assignments; This actually isn't the first time the _Lake Shore Limited_ (or _Silver Star_, in the 90's) has been without a dining car, nor is the Heritage diner shortage completely new. It was originally one of three *prototype* Viewliner cars from the late 1980's. The fact it was overhauled and returned to service *doesn't make it either new or part of the Viewliner II fleet*.

That doesn't mean it isn't a good car, that it isn't part of the diner fleet, or that will necessarily be retired. All it means is that it isn't a newly built Viewliner II. Amtrak also has five ex-Santa Fe Hi-level cars in service on the _Coast Starlight_. They were overhauled (more than once) for the purpose they now serve; No one is arguing that somehow makes them Superliners.


----------



## Ryan

Precisely.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

IMHO, it is perfectly reasonable to *include 8400 as being part of the Viewliner diner car fleet*. Whether like it or not, that's Amtrak's plans for this diner.


----------



## Ryan

You left out an important word.



Cho Cho Charlie said:


> OBS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they have any intention of retiring 8400.
> 
> 
> 
> Then why can't it be counted in as part of the _*new*_ diner car fleet?
Click to expand...

Nobody is saying that it isn't a part of the Viewliner fleet.

It's not new, though. It is literally one of the oldest Viewliners in existence.

I'm utterly amazed at how difficult this concept is for some people to grasp.


----------



## neroden

GaSteve said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> To operate the Meteor and the Star Amtrak needs 13 dining cars (inlcluding a shop count for when the cars are in for regular inspection, and one "protect" car at each terminal). Apparently with Indianapolis and Annapolis in service... they only have 13 dining cars, because the active Heritage fleet is down to 10.
> 
> Restoration of dining car service on the LSL would require a total of 17 or 18 dining cars. (Although I query why the Crescent kept its service when the LSL didn't, since the LSL had higher patronage in the dining car....) How early this can happen probably depends on when various Heritage cars come due for inspections. If there are a number which were inspected very recently and are good for a year, they might not *all* be replaced before LSL dining service is restored.
> 
> 
> 
> could you please enlighten us on how you got 13 for the star and meteor? my count would be 10, eight in service and two protect. 11 if there is one in maintenance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 20% of the time in the shop for inspections and maintenance. This is about right, unfortunately, just based on FRA required inspections (it's slightly higher than the minimum time required by the FRA, as explained to me by someone who detailed all the required inspections). So 8 * 1.2 = 9.6 cars needed. One protect at each of the THREE termini (Miami, New York, and New Orleans) is 3 more (arguably 3 * 1.2 = 3.6). 9.6 + 3 = 12.6, or 9.6 + 3.6 + 13.2. Either way, 13 are needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is no protect car kept at NOL.
Click to expand...

Why on Earth does the Crescent still have dining car service? They can't rely on it northbound (if something goes wrong, no protect car). The ridership is very low south of Atlanta, leading to poor utilization.

Bluntly, allocation of the remaining dining cars to the Crescent rather than the LSL smells like a hasty action done without forethought or analysis. I suppose they're swapping LSL sets south to the Silver Star still? They could swap the LSL sets with Crescent sets just as well, so this smacks of laziness in management.

I don't know who in Amtrak management is ultimately responsible for such decisions (besides the CEO) but after following this sort of nonsense for years I'm pretty sure I could do better. Maybe the problem is that these decisions aren't made by one person; they are CEO-level decisions but I don't get the impression that Boardman personally looked into the details. We may be getting the management-by-committee failure mode?


----------



## OBS

I would assume it is assigned to the Crescent because of the length of the trip compared to LSL. Also, there is no spare Diner kept in Chi to replace a shopped car either, so same situation would apply.


----------



## jis

I am almost certain that the CEO is not the primary decision maker of which trains get the Diner. It is most likely the operations guy. Afterall as rumors go the CEO inly came to know after the fact the decision about Diners on the Star.


----------



## tommylicious

Well we're not riding any overnight train that doesn't have a proper diner. No LSL, CONO.


----------



## Palmetto

That list might very well grow in the short term.


----------



## A Voice

Palmetto said:


> That list might very well grow in the short term.


Hmm...Heritage diners approaching due dates for major work, perhaps before there are enough Viewliners to cover assignments?


----------



## west point

Gads ! What adolescent arguments. It will be 25 V-2 diners ; 1 V-1 diner, And depending on how the Heritage diners hold up any where from 0 - 8 on protect status until enough V-2 diners are in service.a


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> My understanding is that the serviceable Heritage fleet is down to 9 now, for a total fleet of 11.


The serviceable fleet has yet to change. There have been no official retirements in months. Indeed, I believe one of the diners that was out for some time was just ok'd.



neroden said:


> Why on Earth does the Crescent still have dining car service? They can't rely on it northbound (if something goes wrong, no protect car). The ridership is very low south of Atlanta, leading to poor utilization.
> 
> Bluntly, allocation of the remaining dining cars to the Crescent rather than the LSL smells like a hasty action done without forethought or analysis. I suppose they're swapping LSL sets south to the Silver Star still? They could swap the LSL sets with Crescent sets just as well, so this smacks of laziness in management.





OBS said:


> I would assume it is assigned to the Crescent because of the length of the trip compared to LSL. Also, there is no spare Diner kept in Chi to replace a shopped car either, so same situation would apply.


The main factor as OBS mentioned is Crescent serves more meals than the LSL due to the length and timing of the trip.


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> I am almost certain that the CEO is not the primary decision maker of which trains get the Diner. It is most likely the operations guy. Afterall as rumors go the CEO inly came to know after the fact the decision about Diners on the Star.


Or what Amtrak promised the congressional representative from the appropriate district to trade for a positive vote for funding!


----------



## Tracktwentynine

In case anyone is wondering, 8400 - Indianapolis, is on 20(3) right now. I had dinner in it leaving Atlanta, and look forward to breakfast in the morning.


----------



## hermit

Tracktwentynine said:


> In case anyone is wondering, 8400 - Indianapolis, is on 20(3) right now. I had dinner in it leaving Atlanta, and look forward to breakfast in the morning.


How was it? Anything different or special?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

great, so you had dinner in old car.


----------



## GaSteve

hermit said:


> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> 
> In case anyone is wondering, 8400 - Indianapolis, is on 20(3) right now. I had dinner in it leaving Atlanta, and look forward to breakfast in the morning.
> 
> 
> 
> How was it? Anything different or special?
Click to expand...

Having had several meal in the 8400, I can tell you the menu is the same, the crews are the same. The only difference is that the car is more spacious.


----------



## hermit

GaSteve said:


> hermit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> 
> In case anyone is wondering, 8400 - Indianapolis, is on 20(3) right now. I had dinner in it leaving Atlanta, and look forward to breakfast in the morning.
> 
> 
> 
> How was it? Anything different or special?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having had several meal in the 8400, I can tell you the menu is the same, the crews are the same. The only difference is that the car is more spacious.
Click to expand...

I was hoping they would put in a sushi bar :giggle:


----------



## Tracktwentynine

Just transferred to 84 at Washington. The Crescent, with Indianapolis, is still here.

Annapolis - 68001, is parked on Track 30, attached to the FRA Safety car 221.

I post this, for anyone trying to keep track of the Viewdiners.

***

Yes, I realize the food is the same. The quality of service is the same. It's still nice to experience new equipment.


----------



## KnightRail

Tracktwentynine said:


> Just transferred to 84 at Washington. The Crescent, with Indianapolis, is still here.
> 
> Annapolis - 68001, is parked on Track 30, attached to the FRA Safety car 221.


68001 will be in town through at least early next week. Shall we say it has a date with the paparazzi, getting ready for its close up, strike a pose, saying cheese...


----------



## WoodyinNYC

KnightRail said:


> Tracktwentynine said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Annapolis - 68001, is parked on Track 30, attached to the FRA Safety car 221.
> 
> 
> 
> 68001 will be in town through at least early next week. Shall we say it has a date with the paparazzi, getting ready for its close up, strike a pose, saying cheese...
Click to expand...

Great news. They have to get that introduction done before they start accepting a bunch more from CAF. So maybe there will be more Viewdiners by the end of January after all.


----------



## tommylicious

anybody here dined on 68001? how was it?


----------



## keelhauled

Today's NARP newsletter (https://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/hotline-997-southern-republicans-favor-gulf-coast-train-line-big-boost-for-los-angeles-rail-transit-ski-train-back-in-action/) has a bit about the delivery schedule. Supposedly the next diner will be delivered in March, and the rest will follow during the spring. Diners will apparently return to the LSL but not the Star. Bag/dorms and sleepers will hopefully begin to be delivered by the end of the year.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

The latest NARP weekly newsletter has an update on the Viewliner II deliveries. The next diner will be delivered in and go into service in March with the other diners to follow in the spring.

https://www.narprail.org/news/hotline/hotline-997-southern-republicans-favor-gulf-coast-train-line-big-boost-for-los-angeles-rail-transit-ski-train-back-in-action/


----------



## Seaboard92

I would say the train to watch tonight is 97 south of Washington. Should have Annapolis


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

> The new diners will run on the Silver Meteor, the Crescent and the Lake Shore Limited, although the diner restoration date on the Lake Shore is yet to be determined.





keelhauled said:


> Diners will apparently return to the LSL but not the Star.


Disappointing news that the Star(vation) will remain diner-less.


----------



## A Voice

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> The new diners will run on the Silver Meteor, the Crescent and the Lake Shore Limited, although the diner restoration date on the Lake Shore is yet to be determined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diners will apparently return to the LSL but not the Star.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Disappointing news that the Star(vation) will remain diner-less.
Click to expand...

In fairness, the referenced NARP source didn't say that. In fact, it didn't mention the _Silver Star _at all, and regardless, plans can change. I doubt anyone was expecting the _Silver Star_ to get one of the new diners anytime soon, whatever the ultimate outcome.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> The new diners will run on the Silver Meteor, the Crescent and the Lake Shore Limited, although the diner restoration date on the Lake Shore is yet to be determined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diners will apparently return to the LSL but not the Star.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Disappointing news that the Star(vation) will remain diner-less.
Click to expand...

Yup. If that is true, then Amtrak needs to have their heads examined. Providing for a food non-inclusive fare does not imply removal of Diner, except in some Mica-ized accounting system. If they were truly innovative they could simultaneous offer a food non-inclusive fare to the Sleeper passengers and a food inclusive fare to Coach passengers and see if they can boost Diner revenues that way, while getting a little extra even on the general train revenue side, like they do with Sleepers on other trains that have a Diner or something that vaguely resembles a Diner.


----------



## PVD

What would you do with 26 single level diners? Unless an additional train is turned to single level, or the cars are converted into something else, they either get put back on the SS or sit idle. Amortization of the cost of the cars with no offsetting revenues might be worse than putting them back in service.


----------



## A Voice

PVD said:


> What would you do with 26 single level diners? Unless an additional train is turned to single level, or the cars are converted into something else, they either get put back on the SS or sit idle. Amortization of the cost of the cars with no offsetting revenues might be worse than putting them back in service.



Worse, how would you like to explain to a Congressional committee that while you cannot completely eliminate food service losses, you just spent millions to buy more new dining cars than you have any use for.


----------



## neroden

PVD said:


> What would you do with 26 single level diners? Unless an additional train is turned to single level


Single-level Capitol Limited?  Resurrected Broadway Limited?
Otherwise, yes, there are exactly enough dining cars to supply Meteor, Crescent, LSL, Star, daily Cardinal, shop count, and 1 protect car at each terminal.

This is why I've said they need 5 more. One wreck and they have a shortage again.


----------



## pennyk

Seaboard92 said:


> I would say the train to watch tonight is 97 south of Washington. Should have Annapolis


I saw 97 pass through Orlando while I was waiting for 98. Annapolis was deadheaded and not in service.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

A Voice said:


> Cho Cho Charlie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new diners will run on the Silver Meteor, the Crescent and the Lake Shore Limited, although the diner restoration date on the Lake Shore is yet to be determined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diners will apparently return to the LSL but not the Star.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Disappointing news that the Star(vation) will remain diner-less.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In fairness, the referenced NARP source didn't say that. In fact, it didn't mention the _Silver Star _at all, and regardless, plans can change. I doubt anyone was expecting the _Silver Star_ to get one of the new diners anytime soon, whatever the ultimate outcome.
Click to expand...

The source lists _all_ the trains that are getting a new diner. The fact that they didn't mention the Star(vation) at all in that list, does mean it will not be getting one.

Of course, we could all agree that the NARP is a totally unreliable source for Amtrak info.


----------



## WalterIII

Gentlemen, I have been following this fascinating trail for some time and this is my first post. I work for a Class 1 and have certain contacts here and there that provide information from time to time.

First, a recap on 8400. When rebuilt 2010-2012 with stimulus funding the project was "tagged" for the Lake Shore. I suspect this was just for "accounting purposes" (about that time Lake Shore was running without diners as the Heritage cars were getting their "last" heavy overhaul. Of note 6 of the Superliner sleeper stimulus rebuilds were "allocated" to be added to the Empire Builder (4th sleeper), and I do not think that ever happened.

As you probably know 8400 was in fact gutted to the shell and rebuilt with all new interior and operating equipment to serve again as a "prototype" for the new Viewliner II diners using current available equipment. This included body bolster modifications to be able to use the current version of the GS-21 trucks used by Amtrak. 8400 was withdrawn again from service in July 2015 after 30 or so months on the road and sent to Beech Grove. This was for a general overhaul, and revision to the interior equipment to bring it in line with the new cars as finalized. You may recall that Albany 68000 was run down to Philadelphia in the summer of 2014 in a more or less complete state, so the interior equipment has been set for some time. As for 8400, given that Amtrak's fiscal year runs October to September it is likely the changes were specked out from July through August, plans then made and parts ordered for delivery and use after the 2016 fiscal year began in October 2015. The car was restored to service in January 2016, ran on the gulf coast inspection trip, and then went back into general service.

Of note, that withdrawal coincided with the start of the Silver Star "experiment". While we all know some of the political reasons for this, I suspect that going from 21 to 20 diners, and the condition of those 20 Heritage cars, was another reason for the downgrade. In May of 2014 I was on a PV in Hialeah for one night and talked with some of the Amtrak personnel. I heard from them that in April of 2014 there was a time where only 16 of the 21 were in service; in short they had no spares, and were biting their nails. The main issue with the Heritage diners then were the antiquated refrigeration systems.

As for diner requirements, some 20 heritage diners covered the Meteor, the Star, Crescent and Lake Shore for about a decade. 16 were required in service daily leaving 4 "spares". I believe some aggressive turning and switching in New York can reduce this to 15. 8400 added some extra margin. With 26 Viewliner I and II diners in service later this year (let's hope), the current assignments would require 12 cars (4 for each of the three trains), leaving 14 spares! I have heard from one source that the Star may get a diner back. I am not holding my breath on that, but unless you missed it, Mr. Mica is now a private citizen again, having lost to a Democrat in November, so who knows. If that were to happen it would require 4 cars leaving 10 spares.

Beyond that I can say that "several years ago" (about 2012/2013) I saw from a reliable source some consideration for using some of the new cars to single level the Capitol, which would use 3-4 of those "spares". Certainly using them on the Cardinal would be a great idea. I was lucky to ride the Superliner lounge equipped Cardinal twice. Also, there is still some possibility of a reroute of the Meteor over the FEC in 1-3 years which would require the Palmetto becoming the Silver Palm again. There is certainly no shortage of ideas from us on the outside of where to use them!

For now let's hope they get the diners, and sleepers, delivered and in service this year.

Walter


----------



## WoodyinNYC

WalterIII said:


> Gentlemen, I have been following this fascinating trail for some time and this is my first post. I work for a Class 1 and have certain contacts here and there that provide information from time to time.


Congratulations on your first post! It was a good recap and chock full of information.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## neroden

Yes, thanks, Walter.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ditto!

Keep the info coming, this is a very popular thread for several years on AU!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

68001 is back in rotation, left Miami on 98 this morning.


----------



## WalterIII

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the encouragement! I will check this out every week or so. Do not claim to be perfect or all knowing, and may be off on dates a bit sometime, and do appreciate being corrected.

Regards 8400 and future service. Keep these facts in mind.

1. They have spent some $2-3 million on the car since 2011.

2. Yes, the shell was built by Budd back about 1983 along with 2300 and 2301, taken to Beech Gove, and completed 1987-1988 and put in test service. So, the car is 28-33 years old, but

3. The 8400 was used in regular service, with some down time, until stored in 2002. (The car was a prototype, which tested many unique items. The major "problem" with the car was it's unique a/c system (and with all those windows you sure need good a/c!). That and other issues had turned 8400 into a chronic "hangar queen", to use an aviation term. So, until then the car had 14 years of service, plus 3-4 since revival, total years of service (wear and tear) is only 18 years max.

4. As of early 2016 there were still some 5 ex-CB&Q/CZ and ex-NYC diners built in 1948 in active service. So, at best a Budd will last 68 years, 58 years at worst (1957 built NP diners). That means 8400 should have another 40-50 years of service!

Walter


----------



## jis

If one is to believe Elon Musk, by then everyone will be traveling by Hyperloop LOL!

Remember, he is in Trumps Technical Advisory Committee or some such.


----------



## neroden

I would note that Musk has put precisely $0.00 into Hyperloop. Watch where he puts his money, not where he puts his mouth.


----------



## Palmetto

Walter,

There are ladies on here, too.


----------



## Thirdrail7

h34r:


----------



## Ryan




----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ryan said:


> unnamed.png


I sure hope you mean that in a good way!


----------



## CraigDK

Thirdrail7 said:


> h34r:



I have been following these threads long enough to start to get to excited by this post....


----------



## afigg

Yes, it would be nice to have some goods news on the delivery of a second V II diner car.


----------



## KnightRail

It would be even nicer to have a second and a third. Will have to see what the shortest month delivers.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KnightRail said:


> It would be even nicer to have a second and a third. Will have to see what the shortest month delivers.


2 for 2? 2 new diners for 2nd month.


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> It would be even nicer to have a second and a third. Will have to see what the shortest month delivers.


This is my projected number:


----------



## OBS

You do realize you are taking everyone here on an emotional roller coaster, don't you....LOL


----------



## Steve4031

It was just another wasted post as many others are on AU.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Steve4031 said:


> It was just another wasted post as many others are on AU.


As is this ^^ one.


----------



## jis

LOL! Here is my contribution of a wasted post expressing amusement about kettles, pots and the color black


----------



## Ryan

Steve4031 said:


> It was just another wasted post as many others are on AU.


Thanks for your ever valuable contribution to the discussion.


----------



## Palmetto

What's a "wasted" post?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Are we there yet?


----------



## me_little_me

WoodyinNYC said:


> Are we there yet?


Shut up or we'll turn around right now and return all the new diners!


----------



## CraigDK

me_little_me said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are we there yet?
> 
> 
> 
> Shut up or we'll turn around right now and return all the new diners!
Click to expand...

Well the fact that 68001 hasn't been returned seems to be good news. It does suggest that a satisfactory product has been produced (it has just taken way longer than expected).


----------



## StriderGDM

Nah, Amtrak just keeps shuffling it around so no one can find it to return it. ;-)


----------



## Lonestar648

I thought I had read that Amtrak was starting to train in Miami.


----------



## Acela150

For those Trains Magazine subscribers... In the March Issue has several articles about Uncle Wick two of which are interviews with him. One conducted with Don Phillips who I'm not really a fan of, quotes Wick as saying about the Cars Are Fictional situation that They have a schedule set up for delivery and CAF will follow it.

The quote kind of made it seem like there was sort of a "deliver these cars by such and such a date or else".


----------



## pennyk

I'm on 98 right now and I just ate lunch in the Annapolis diner. Thumbs up!! 



When the train passed in the Orlando station, it appeared that a shiny new sleeper was deadheading. My "twin" suggested that it was not new, but one of the sleepers with new paint scheme. I think he is correct.


----------



## KnightRail

pennyk said:


> When the train passed in the Orlando station, it appeared that a shiny new sleeper was deadheading. My "twin" suggested that it was not new, but one of the sleepers with new paint scheme. I think he is correct.


Your "twin" is correct. The 62043, which likes to trick many into thinking it's a 62500 series with its Phase III decals, is deadheading to Washington. Nice photos of the inside of 68001 too!


----------



## Bob Dylan

NICE pics Penny, were envious!!

Is Leo in the crew?


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> NICE pics Penny, were envious!!
> 
> Is Leo in the crew?


Unfortunately, no Leo. My SCA is "new" to me. He is no Leo, but he is good.


----------



## A Voice

KnightRail said:


> The 62043, which likes to trick many into thinking it's a 62500 series with its Phase III decals, is deadheading to Washington.


They should renumber it into the 65xxx series. Rail forums across the internet would light up like a Christmas tree for the "new Viewliner II sleeper".....


----------



## jis

A Voice said:


> They should renumber it into the 65xxx series. Rail forums across the internet would light up like a Christmas tree for the "new Viewliner II sleeper".....


Heh ... 65xxx would perhaps be Viewliner III series (so far unallocated block AFAICT. Even better


----------



## pennyk

KnightRail said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> When the train passed in the Orlando station, it appeared that a shiny new sleeper was deadheading. My "twin" suggested that it was not new, but one of the sleepers with new paint scheme. I think he is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Your "twin" is correct. The 62043, which likes to trick many into thinking it's a 62500 series with its Phase III decals, is deadheading to Washington. Nice photos of the inside of 68001 too!
Click to expand...

A closer look in JAX. Of course my twin is correct.


----------



## Ryan

That guy sounds wicked smart.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> That guy sounds wicked smart.


I've heard he has a big head.


----------



## KnightRail

jis said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> They should renumber it into the 65xxx series. Rail forums across the internet would light up like a Christmas tree for the "new Viewliner II sleeper".....
> 
> 
> 
> Heh ... 65xxx would perhaps be Viewliner III series (so far unallocated block AFAICT. Even better
Click to expand...

65000, if following the Superliner numbering methodology, would be a Viewliner Snack Coach. Let's do it.


----------



## tommylicious

How was the ride in Annapolis? Ambiance? Sound? Lighting? Was the food good?


----------



## pennyk

tommylicious said:


> How was the ride in Annapolis? Ambiance? Sound? Lighting? Was the food good?


The ride was quite nice; ambiance was very nice. Lighting was good and there are shades that can be lowered when the sun is too strong. Some people pulled shades this morning during breakfast.

I did not notice a difference in sound. The diner was not crowded during lunch or breakfast, but was full during dinner. Noise levels seemed quite acceptable. I had no problems hearing my tablemates. I am not sure if it had anything to do with the new diner, but there were no crying babies or screaming children, although there are plenty of children on the train because of the President's Day holiday in the north.

Yes, I thought the food was good each meal (however, I saw no difference between old diner food and new diner food).


----------



## pennyk

KnightRail said:


> The 62043, which likes to trick many into thinking it's a 62500 series with its Phase III decals, is deadheading to Washington.


I watched 62043 get "uncoupled" from 98 together with our 2 engines in WAS.


----------



## GaSteve

tommylicious said:


> How was the ride in Annapolis? Ambiance? Sound? Lighting? Was the food good?


I rode in it on the Crescent last summer. My immediate impression upon sitting down was that the ride was much better than other cars. The higher ceiling is a much more open look. I asked the chef what he thought and he said he loves it.

The only issue I has was that the AC vents were directly below the windows and blew all over whoever was seated on that side. The crew had even duct-taped some of the vents to cut down on the draft.


----------



## A Voice

GaSteve said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> How was the ride in Annapolis? Ambiance? Sound? Lighting? Was the food good?
> 
> 
> 
> I rode in it on the Crescent last summer. My immediate impression upon sitting down was that the ride was much better than other cars. The higher ceiling is a much more open look. I asked the chef what he thought and he said he loves it.
> 
> The only issue I has was that the AC vents were directly below the windows and blew all over whoever was seated on that side. The crew had even duct-taped some of the vents to cut down on the draft.
Click to expand...

_Annapolis_ had not been delivered yet last summer; Per the first post of this thread, it entered service on the _Silver Meteor_ on December 15, 2016.  You probably rode in _Indianapolis_, the prototype Viewliner I dining car from the late 80's.


----------



## GaSteve

A Voice said:


> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> How was the ride in Annapolis? Ambiance? Sound? Lighting? Was the food good?
> 
> 
> 
> I rode in it on the Crescent last summer. My immediate impression upon sitting down was that the ride was much better than other cars. The higher ceiling is a much more open look. I asked the chef what he thought and he said he loves it.
> 
> The only issue I has was that the AC vents were directly below the windows and blew all over whoever was seated on that side. The crew had even duct-taped some of the vents to cut down on the draft.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _Annapolis_ had not been delivered yet last summer; Per the first post of this thread, it entered service on the _Silver Meteor_ on December 15, 2016. You probably rode in _Indianapolis_, the prototype Viewliner I dining car from the late 80's.
Click to expand...

Sorry, you're right. I was on the Indianapolis. I hope they have done something about the AC vents.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

GaSteve said:


> The only issue I has was that the AC vents were directly below the windows and blew all over whoever was seated on that side. The crew had even duct-taped some of the vents to cut down on the draft.


The Viewliner Sleepers, at least the originals, have the same issue. In the roomettes, I typically have to put something like a pillow or blanket against the vents, to prevent the cold air from blowing directly at me.


----------



## jis

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only issue I has was that the AC vents were directly below the windows and blew all over whoever was seated on that side. The crew had even duct-taped some of the vents to cut down on the draft.
> 
> 
> 
> The Viewliner Sleepers, at least the originals, have the same issue. In the roomettes, I typically have to put something like a pillow or blanket against the vents, to prevent the cold air from blowing directly at me.
Click to expand...

I though they had a sliding vent cover. I know I have used it many times to cut the flow of air. Is it that only some cars have that feature?


----------



## R30A

Every viewliner I have been on has had a sliding vent cover. I have seen two different types of them, but each one had one.


----------



## jis

R30A said:


> Every viewliner I have been on has had a sliding vent cover. I have seen two different types of them, but each one had one.


Thank you! I thought I was losing my mind for a moment back there.


----------



## pennyk

In my room (right now) there are 2 vents under the window. The top one can be closed with the knob. Sometimes the bottom one blows hot air, cold air or no air. I put a pillow next to the vent to avoid air blowing directly on me.


----------



## nferr

I don't remember the black vents flowing air. But I could be mistaken. I know you can close the silver vents and I thought the heating was near the floor?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

All Amtrak air vents are created in folded space and are controlled by a small man named Marvin who spins a wheel-of-fortune like device for each vent on every train to decide what kind of air each vent will disseminate.


----------



## Seaboard92

nferr said:


> I don't remember the black vents flowing air. But I could be mistaken. I know you can close the silver vents and I thought the heating was near the floor?


I'm not sure about the Viewliners as I've never been in their electrical locker but most cars I've dealt with are ex Amtrak Budds they have heat coming from the roof and floor heat. And if you ask me floor heat only serves one purpose when I'm working and that is to keep the pipes from freezing as the cars tend to get too hot with the floor heat on and the regular heat. So I'll run regular heat. I only use floor heat when I'm considered about freezing pipes.


----------



## pennyk

nferr said:


> I don't remember the black vents flowing air. But I could be mistaken. I know you can close the silver vents and I thought the heating was near the floor?


There was cold air coming out of the black vents during my last trip.


----------



## PVD

Since warm air rises, it generally takes less energy to heat a space from the floor up with convection, than to send forced warm air downward. Of course things like bunks and chairs and tables make it a bit more complicated, but all things being equal it makes some sense. It's why heated kitchen an bathroom floors have become so poular.


----------



## WorldRollsBeneathMe

As I understand it, Viewliner II sleeper cars do not have plumbing in the Roomettes. Is the Silver Meteor upgraded to using these cars yet? The Amtrak web site naturally says nothing about these and only has pictures of the old model.


----------



## Ryan

That's because none of the new sleepers have been delivered yet.

When they are, they will still have plumbing for the sinks.


----------



## CCC1007

WorldRollsBeneathMe said:


> As I understand it, Viewliner II sleeper cars do not have plumbing in the Roomettes. Is the Silver Meteor upgraded to using these cars yet? The Amtrak web site naturally says nothing about these and only has pictures of the old model.


There is only one diner and the seventy baggage cars that have been delivered, next in line are the remaining diners, the dorm/baggage cars, and only after that will the twenty five sleepers be delivered.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Well folks, it's March and still no new cars out of CAF. This whole fiasco will eventually end up as a congressional investigation.


----------



## Acela150

Yeah sure it will. Once they get their heads out of their rear ends.


----------



## A Voice

Not in our lifetimes then, huh?

Seriously, however, Congress has bigger fish to fry than late delivery of a few passenger cars.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

investigation? it seems Amtrak and CAF are both OK with delays !! so

maybe the delays were caused by mutual change in contract ??

It seems only the rail buffs are upset as Amtrak or IG of Amtrak has not started any investigation or claim for the delays.


----------



## Ryan

Didn't realize that you've changed jobs and now work for the IG in a position empowered to comment on what they are and aren't investigating. Congrats on the new gig!


----------



## Thirdrail7

MikefromCrete said:


> Well folks, it's March and still no new cars out of CAF. This whole fiasco will eventually end up as a congressional investigation.


Indeed. 8 pages into a thread that is supposed to deal with production and delivery and we haven't come up with a new car...although there are rumblings. However, that blew up last time so let's see if something concrete occurs.


----------



## nferr

pennyk said:


> nferr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the black vents flowing air. But I could be mistaken. I know you can close the silver vents and I thought the heating was near the floor?
> 
> 
> 
> There was cold air coming out of the black vents during my last trip.
Click to expand...

It's strange. I'm on the Crescent right now and absolutely nothing is coming out of the black vents. Seems like fresh air from the top vents and the heating is definitely near the floor. Maybe the A/C comes out of the black vents. Too cold for that today!


----------



## fulham

I have ridden numerous times in Viewliner roomettes on the Lake Shore, Cardinal, Crescent, and once on the Silver Meteor. My experiences have always been as follows:

There are 2 vents located below each window. Each vent is controlled by a black knob at the end of the vent. You want more air...open the vent. Less air...close the vent. The air coming out of these vents is cool but never cold in my experience.

Located on the wall opposite the sink/toilet are two round vents with a black grated plastic covering. One vent is for the lower bunk...one is for the upper bunk. Both vents have below them buttons to push for "off", "low", "medium" and "high". Again the air temp is about the same as what comes out of vents below the windows.

As for heat, on the wall opposite the sink/toilet, is a round knob to regulate the heat. On the knob are settings for "off", "50", "60", "70","80", etc. But I have found that you ignore the settings. Turn the knob and at around "70" you will hear it click. If you want heat, you move it past the click to the higher numbers...if you don't want heat you turn it the other direction and hear it click to the lower settings ( or just set it at the "off" setting"). The Viewliner roomettes, in my opinion, are more comfortable than the Superliner roomettes. The Superliners have the one vent blowing cool air above the door. Given the age of these cars, some vents work better than others. On warm days if the sun is coming through the windows, the Superliner roomettes can get pretty warm.

Maybe I have been lucky regarding the Viewliners I have been on, but so far they have always been comfortable.


----------



## nferr

nferr said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nferr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember the black vents flowing air. But I could be mistaken. I know you can close the silver vents and I thought the heating was near the floor?
> 
> 
> 
> There was cold air coming out of the black vents during my last trip.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's strange. I'm on the Crescent right now and absolutely nothing is coming out of the black vents. Seems like fresh air from the top vents and the heating is definitely near the floor. Maybe the A/C comes out of the black vents. Too cold for that today!
Click to expand...

OK. Responding to my own post, I cranked up the heat last evening and warm air was definitely coming out of the black vents. And the knob/lever only closes the top vents which seem to flow only cooler air.


----------



## Ngotwalt

I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.

Nick


----------



## dlagrua

Ngotwalt said:


> I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.
> 
> Nick


Just a guess, but since it is claimed that CAF is losing money on each Viewliner, we may be seeing some procrastination on their part. If we go back to the original schedule everything was supposed to have been delivered by now. .

The original delivery schedule set in 2013 shows the final Viewliner was to be delivered in Jan 2017. If it keeps going like this, why before you know it, the order will be cancelled.


----------



## JoeBas

dlagrua said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Just a guess, but since it is claimed that CAF is losing money on each Viewliner, we may be seeing some procrastination on their part. If we go back to the original schedule everything was supposed to have been delivered by now. .
Click to expand...

Aren't they actually losing even more every day longer it takes? I'd think the fact that they're already in the red would lead to "Do whatever it takes to shove them out the door and stop the bleeding".


----------



## Green Maned Lion

That assumes there isn't a limitation on penalties, which is often the case with projects. I'd guess that if there was one, they blew past it so long ago they don't remember what that moment looked like.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

JoeBas said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a guess, but since it is claimed that CAF is losing money on each Viewliner, we may be seeing some procrastination on their part. If we go back to the original schedule everything was supposed to have been delivered by now. .
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't they actually losing even more every day longer it takes? I'd think the fact that they're already in the red would lead to "Do whatever it takes to shove them out the door and stop the bleeding".
Click to expand...

I'd think the same thing, JoeBas. The longer it takes to fulfill the order, the longer CAF has to pay for employees, facilities, utilities, etc. Get things done and over with as quickly as possible.


----------



## PRR 60

I have absolutely no insider information, but my professional instincts tell me there is a lot more involved here than meets the eye. I see disputes involving stuff like change orders, specification interpretation, acceptance criteria, product quality, and the like . I see CAF saying Amtrak is not paying what they think they are owed, and Amtrak saying that CAF is not delivering what they are supposed to be delivering. Situations like this tend to be pretty messy. I just have a gut feeling that several law firms will be the ultimate winners here.

If the Amtrak Inspector General ever puts out a report on this contract, it could make for interesting reading.


----------



## JoeBas

Green Maned Lion said:


> That assumes there isn't a limitation on penalties, which is often the case with projects. I'd guess that if there was one, they blew past it so long ago they don't remember what that moment looked like.


It's not about penalties to the supplier or the payment, I'm talking about avoidable costs like salaries, taxes, etc., that they could all "wind down" and get off the books as soon as possible.

Their income is set, with the penalties. The expenses are continuing to tick...


----------



## TiBike

Or maybe Amtrak is reevaluating its need for diners and/or sleepers.


----------



## JoeBas

They're bought. The money is spent.


----------



## Brian Battuello

The way things are going, maybe I could buy a diner surplus for $10K, drop it at the corner of US9 and NY301, hook up some utilities and start selling burgers. Pie anyone?


----------



## TiBike

Contracts get renegotiated all the time in the private sector – someone with Moorman's experience would be very comfortable with it. I have no idea what's really going on, so I would not assume one way or the other. But if the original contract doesn't meet current needs and/or strategy, the logical thing to do would be to renegotiate it so that it does. Or at the least, cut the losses.

It's not unusual in the public sector to let an existing contract drive strategic decisions, but that not the way private companies work. Or at least not the way they're supposed to work.



JoeBas said:


> They're bought. The money is spent.


----------



## neroden

Single-level sleepers are profitable. Highly profitable. Moorman would have to be an idiot to cancel the sleeper order, and he isn't known for being an idiot (though you never know).

Diners are significantly costly but I believe that is more to do with method of operation than with equipment.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

TiBike said:


> Contracts get renegotiated all the time in the private sector – someone with Moorman's experience would be very comfortable with it. ... if the original contract doesn't meet current needs and/or strategy, the logical thing would be to renegotiate it ...
> 
> It's not unusual in the public sector to let an existing contract drive strategic decisions, but that not the way private companies work. Or at least not the way they're supposed to work.
> 
> 
> 
> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> They're bought. The money is spent.
Click to expand...

I'd still like to see the order renegotiated to buy more sleepers, bag dorms, and baggage cars, which could be converted to sleepers, bag dorms, or perhaps even diners in the future. (I don't know what to say about ordering more diners.) Such single-level equipment will never be cheaper, tho I'd be willing to pay enuff so that CAF wouldn't lose still more money. LOL.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

That's not how stuff works. Amtrak would be wise to play hardball and convince CAF to sell more cars at a low profit margin to help cover all the wasted setup costs.


----------



## A Voice

WoodyinNYC said:


> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Contracts get renegotiated all the time in the private sector – someone with Moorman's experience would be very comfortable with it. ... if the original contract doesn't meet current needs and/or strategy, the logical thing would be to renegotiate it ...
> 
> It's not unusual in the public sector to let an existing contract drive strategic decisions, but that not the way private companies work. Or at least not the way they're supposed to work.
> 
> 
> 
> JoeBas said:
> 
> 
> 
> They're bought. The money is spent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd still like to see the order renegotiated to buy more sleepers, bag dorms, and baggage cars, which could be converted to sleepers, bag dorms, or perhaps even diners in the future. (I don't know what to say about ordering more diners.) Such single-level equipment will never be cheaper, tho I'd be willing to pay enuff so that CAF wouldn't lose still more money. LOL.
Click to expand...

While more sleepers would be desirable, and particularly barring that I'd argue that every single-level long-distance (LD) train should be getting a baggage-dorm to free up space in the sleepers, what really needs to be replaced next are the Amfleet II coaches and lounge (diner-lite) cars. That's a 150 car order. Making it a Viewliner Ii order in the reasonable future also would mean eastern LD trains would have a uniform set of equipment, which is preferable for several reasons.

There are sufficient Viewliner II diners on order for every eastern overnight LD train, including the_ Silver Star_ and a daily _Cardinal_. But that leaves little or no room for expansion, should needs change in the future.


----------



## Ngotwalt

I will throw in that the diners, at least like half of them are also built, or very nearly done. A photo (from google maps) posted here or on a another board indicates there are at least 7-10 diners sitting around the facility on trucks. There are probably another 6-8 under construction/near completion inside the facility. (Please take with a grain of salt) It was relayed on another forum that the one in service diner recently developed a major fault, what ever it was it led to the diner being out OOS for some time (two weeks to a month), however it is now back in service, and word is obviously that the fault is something that can be rectified. The poster indicated that this fault pushed diner deliveries back into April, but other than that, they are very close to being done.

Nick


----------



## PVD

Keep in mind that a major piece of building a railcar is assembling and integrating components that you (the car builder) have contracted to purchase from other companies. Most contracts of this type are written with embargo dates (we used to call them drop dead dates) for changes, after which changes (except certain ones required to meet regulatory requirements) came at a price. Depending on the item, that price could be rather severe. If modules for one type of car are already built and sitting in crates in the factory waiting to go in, RailPlan is going to get paid, so changing car types will come at a serious cost. Might be better just to take the extra cars and option additional if still possible to meet a revised fleet plan. Remember, the original order counts have already changed once.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

neroden said:


> Single-level sleepers are profitable. Highly profitable. Moorman would have to be an idiot to cancel the sleeper order, and he isn't known for being an idiot (though you never know).
> 
> Diners are significantly costly but I believe that is more to do with method of operation than with equipment.


IMHO, that's simple bad book keeping. The single-level sleepers and the single level diners should be viewed as a single unit. To me, its like some accountant splitting off the shower room, and raising a big red flag because no paying passengers are booking it.


----------



## DCAKen

Ngotwalt said:


> A photo (from google maps) posted here or on a another board indicates there are at least 7-10 diners sitting around the facility on trucks.


There are quite a few of the cars on the tracks here


----------



## PVD

Sure as hell hope that's a weekend, that is one empty parking lot......


----------



## JohannFarley

Most of these look like sleepers to me based on the roofs and windows. And it looks like 3 diners maybe?


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

DCAKen said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> A photo (from google maps) posted here or on a another board indicates there are at least 7-10 diners sitting around the facility on trucks.
> 
> 
> 
> There are quite a few of the cars on the tracks here
Click to expand...


----------



## DCAKen

PVD said:


> Sure as hell hope that's a weekend, that is one empty parking lot......


It looks like the weekend since other big companies in the area have empty parking lots


----------



## stappend

Not to rain on anyones parade, but the Google Earth picture must be old. There is no snow and the trees still have leaves.


----------



## dcipjr

I have a cross-country trip planned for July, and it's starting with the Cardinal #51. I don't suppose there's any shot of my roomette being located in a Viewliner II?


----------



## MikefromCrete

dcipjr said:


> I have a cross-country trip planned for July, and it's starting with the Cardinal #51. I don't suppose there's any shot of my roomette being located in a Viewliner II?


I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## Lonestar648

The outlook is dim for this year since the new DC are still not really in service.


----------



## dcipjr

Lonestar648 said:


> The outlook is dim for this year since the new DC are still not really in service.


I sort of figure the only way would be if they decide to test it out (like they've done with the diner) on a couple trains here and there. But I agree, the outlook is pretty doubtful at this point.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

dcipjr said:


> I have a cross-country trip planned for July, and it's starting with the Cardinal #51. I don't suppose there's any shot of my roomette being located in a Viewliner II?


No chance. Maybe an outside chance of eating in a new diner, but don't count on that. There's only one of the new Viewliner IIs operating currently, more or less in test mode. Plausible rumor hereabouts was that due to a little something still not right on the test car, it was returned to CAF for needed fixes. And meanwhile all the largely completed diners at the plant are getting the same fixes. So we expect delays.

After Amtrak accepts the 25th diner, next up are 10 bag-dorms. (Unless the schedule changes again.) The bag-dorms are half sleepers, of course, so they let CAF practice building them before moving on to the 25 full sleepers. I'm not expecting those until 2018. 

But I'm reconciled. Could be worse. Srsly. Remember after the roll-out of the brand spanking new Acelas, when serious flaws turned up (with or near the wheels, not an area I have any familiarity with at all. LOL). Service was suspended while all the Acela cars were inspected and repaired.

It was a public relations debacle. Total FAIL. It was almost the exception to the general rule that there's no such thing as bad publicity. We don't want to see that level of FAIL again, so we'll wait until CAF and Amtrak can get the Viewliner IIs correct.


----------



## Carolina Special

I was poking around today in the Amtrak 2016 Five Year Budget Plan. It called for acquiring 695 Single Level cars and 500 Bi Level cars over the 2019-2025 time frame. Exhibit 2-3, believe or not.

Fantasy Island anyway, but if you can't get the Viewliner IIs done, you can hardly ask for funding for a 1000+ car plan from a Congress or President of any party.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

WoodyinNYC said:


> dcipjr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a cross-country trip planned for July, and it's starting with the Cardinal #51. I don't suppose there's any shot of my roomette being located in a Viewliner II?
> 
> 
> 
> No chance. Maybe an outside chance of eating in a new diner, but don't count on that. There's only one of the new Viewliner IIs operating currently, more or less in test mode. Plausible rumor hereabouts was that due to a little something still not right on the test car, it was returned to CAF for needed fixes. And meanwhile all the largely completed diners at the plant are getting the same fixes. So we expect delays.
Click to expand...

68001 is in service and should be on 97 tomorrow out of NYP. It was out of rotation a few weeks back while it went through a periodic maintenance cycle in Hialeah.


----------



## jis

I thought I saw it on 98 today in NJ.


----------



## Acela150

It's possible that you saw 8400. Not saying that you didn't. But it's always possible.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

One of them was on 97(24)


----------



## R30A

I saw 68001 in consist in Sunnyside sometime over the past week, (Not sure when- I have been by Sunnyside a lot lately, although I think it was on Saturday.)


----------



## neroden

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Single-level sleepers are profitable. Highly profitable. Moorman would have to be an idiot to cancel the sleeper order, and he isn't known for being an idiot (though you never know).
> 
> Diners are significantly costly but I believe that is more to do with method of operation than with equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, that's simple bad book keeping. The single-level sleepers and the single level diners should be viewed as a single unit. To me, its like some accountant splitting off the shower room, and raising a big red flag because no paying passengers are booking it.
Click to expand...

I totally disagree with you on this, and I would point out #66/67 as an example of a train which needs sleepers (highly profitable) and doesn't need a dining car.

I think of a dining car as a cost of running a train which runs across two mealtimes. Period! Doesn't matter whether it has sleepers or not, what matters is the runtime.

(So, most fundamentally, the way to remove the cost of dining cars is to make the trains *much faster*.  But sadly that's probably going to take much longer than the lifetime of the new CAF cars...)


----------



## NE933

So March 2017 is nearly over; it's the month when the long delayed diners cars are supposed to start rolling. I call upon Mr. Moorman to enforce what CAF agreed to, or litigate now.


----------



## CCC1007

NE933 said:


> So March 2017 is nearly over; it's the month when the long delayed diners cars are supposed to start rolling. I call upon Mr. Moorman to enforce what CAF agreed to, or litigate now.


We have no idea what is happening behind the scenes, so we really can't know if litigation is necessary or prudent at this time, especially since it would likely stop all work until the courts order the work to be finished.


----------



## Acela150

CCC1007 said:


> NE933 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So March 2017 is nearly over; it's the month when the long delayed diners cars are supposed to start rolling. I call upon Mr. Moorman to enforce what CAF agreed to, or litigate now.
> 
> 
> 
> We have no idea what is happening behind the scenes, so we really can't know if litigation is necessary or prudent at this time, especially since it would likely stop all work until the courts order the work to be finished.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If litigation is needed let it be after all the cars are delivered.


----------



## PVD

Also, there is the real possibility that a US subsidiary was created to shield the parent company from liability/responsibility, and all that might be accomplished is spending millions in court, getting a judgement, them declaring bankruptcy, shutting down and walking away, with you collecting nothing.


----------



## Lonestar648

Many companies create a special corporation for big projects, so the main company is shielded from the big law suits. By getting into litigation now, CAF stops all work, lays off the entire staff, waits out the years until the litigation is settled. If CAF ends up with owing money and being in an impossible situation, they just exit by cutting off the corporation created just to build the Amtrak order. Amtrak ends up with a win in court, but no cars built, and the process has to start over so they have lost everything invested to date. To me, all Amtrak can do is work with CAF to hep them move forward.


----------



## PVD

The way customers protect themselves is through the use of performance bonds, but they can add considerable cost to a transaction, and disqualify some potential vendors who can not obtain the level of bonding req'd.


----------



## west point

It certainly is a very poor Fool's day joke with the delivery delays.


----------



## tricia

Acela150 said:


> Agreed. If litigation is needed let it be after all the cars are delivered.


Well, that's apparently not going to be March 2017. Maybe 2018? 2020? 2025? If it's not time yet to actually go to court, might Amtrak ought to at least give a "time is of the essence" notice, to keep that option open? Or perhaps that's already been done.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.
> 
> Nick


Well, it isn't March but here's a graphic:







This one looks good...I hope. Excelsior is standing by.


----------



## KnightRail

Thirdrail7 said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it isn't March but here's a graphic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one looks good...I hope. Excelsior is standing by.
Click to expand...

What's the range on that radar? Are we talking miles or lightyears? Is it solar powered or does it run on imagination?


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it isn't March but here's a graphic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one looks good...I hope. Excelsior is standing by.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's the range on that radar? Are we talking miles or lightyears? Is it solar powered or does it run on imagination?
Click to expand...


Days.....unless it's faulty...like the last time.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Like we weren't checking this site for updates often enuff. LOL.

But thanks for the heads-up!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

KnightRail said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it isn't March but here's a graphic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one looks good...I hope. Excelsior is standing by.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's the range on that radar? Are we talking miles or lightyears? Is it solar powered or does it run on imagination?
Click to expand...

I heard the delays have allowed upgrades for the VL IIs to make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs now.


----------



## Steve4031

Wish you all would quit posting this crap.


----------



## jis

Let us know when the two locomotives and the usual cafe car depart Albany for Elmira to pick more cars up. Before that it is all just speculation.


----------



## KnightRail

Steve4031 said:


> Wish you all would quit posting this crap.


Likewise!


----------



## dlagrua

If I may take a guess, the delivery status regarding the Viewliner II cars may already be in litigation between Amtrak and CAF What else could it be that's causing month after month of delays? If a company does not or cannot ship and deliver then something is wrong.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Not in litigation, that would be in the public record.

Nick


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Let us know when the two locomotives and the usual cafe car depart Albany for Elmira to pick more cars up. Before that it is all just speculation.


"..the Answer my friend is Blowin' in the Wind.."


----------



## CCC1007

dlagrua said:


> If I may take a guess, the delivery status regarding the Viewliner II cars may already be in litigation between Amtrak and CAF What else could it be that's causing month after month of delays? If a company does not or cannot ship and deliver then something is wrong.


Could be staffing issues, or a supplier failing their obligations, or any number of other things.


----------



## tommylicious

Tranorders saying there's life at CAF....have a gander


----------



## jis

tommylicious said:


> Tranorders saying there's life at CAF....have a gander


Although it also seems to hint at only one new car coming out within the next week or so.


----------



## tommylicious

take what we can get!


----------



## KnightRail

tommylicious said:


> Tra_norders saying there's life at CAF....have a gander_


_That post is nothing more than a regurgitation of what was posted/hinted here._


----------



## Ngotwalt

Yeah, that was me.

Cheers,

Nick


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakLKL said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hate saying it, but March is fading fast and no one has posted any graphics vaguely hinting at that something might soon be emerging from Elmira.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it isn't March but here's a graphic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one looks good...I hope. Excelsior is standing by.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's the range on that radar? Are we talking miles or lightyears? Is it solar powered or does it run on imagination?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I heard the delays have allowed upgrades for the VL IIs to make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs now.
Click to expand...

Finally someone who doesn't say 14 parsecs! Lol!!! :lol:



Steve4031 said:


> Wish you all would quit posting this crap.


And your comment does no good. Those "crap" posts. Whatever they are will keep coming up. So I'm English. Deal with it.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Steve4031, there's a nice little feature in AU that you can use if you think posts are inappropriate. It's the Report feature. Try it, you might like it.


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> Steve4031, there's a nice little feature in AU that you can use if you think posts are inappropriate. It's the Report feature. Try it, you might like it.


Or one can selectively "Ignore" posts from so called "crap posters" too, instead of posting more crap posts about crap posts about crap posts, like I am doing right now.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Bloviation is not limited to Ohio.


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> Bloviation is not limited to Ohio.


----------



## KnightRail

If the radar is indeed not faulty this time, Christmas is either coming eight months early or four months late, based on your philosophical preference.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wish you all would quit posting this crap.
> 
> 
> 
> And your comment does no good. Those "crap" posts. Whatever they are will keep coming up. So I'm English. Deal with it.
Click to expand...



Fair warning: The remainder of this post will have pictures. If that is problem for anyone, it is fortunate that Devil's Advocate has recently told us how to this should be handled:

Now, for those who are still reading:



KnightRail said:


> If the radar is indeed not faulty this time, Christmas is either coming eight months early or four months late, based on your philosophical preference.



Radar reports are confirmed. Excelsior is staffed and approval has been granted .












The capital of New York should have a meeting with these two cities by Tuesday.


----------



## jis

Oooh! We are going to double the speed of delivery, eh? Good news indeed. We can now project the order completion by about 2022 then?


----------



## neroden

You know, this might be enough to equip an entire train route. Consistently.

I wonder whether we will first see a route *abandon its Heritage*, or whether we will see a *Restoration*. (Hoping for the latter.)

(Also fishing for hilarious cryptic photos)


----------



## Ryan

Apparently they're going to roll out in alphabetical order.


----------



## StriderGDM

Makes sense since they're most likely to come out in numerical order, and the city names are assigned in alphabetical order to the numbers.


----------



## Ryan

Yeah one of those things that you don't think of until you see it, then it's blindingly obvious.


----------



## jis

And then as soon as it becomes obvious, comes an exception to prove the rule


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> I wonder whether we will first see a route *abandon its Heritage*, or whether we will see a *Restoration*. (Hoping for the latter.)


Sorry, I know the Lake Shore Ltd is your train, but I'm hoping it gets new diners last. Among the many advantages of the new cars should be improved reliability in every way. One way that matters a lot to Amtrak, is cars that fail on the NEC, and cars that go slow on the NEC.

When ALL the slow and failure-prone Heritage cars are gone from the NEC, the On Time Performance should improve for ALL other trains. You can't get the full effect you need with many new cars replacing many Heritage cars, or replacing most of them. It's ALL or nothing. And it's worth it.

So the one and only LD train that never operates on the NEC should be the last to benefit from new diners. Such is life.


----------



## Anthony V

neroden said:


> You know, this might be enough to equip an entire train route. Consistently.
> 
> I wonder whether we will first see a route *abandon its Heritage*, or whether we will see a *Restoration*. (Hoping for the latter.)
> 
> (Also fishing for hilarious cryptic photos)


All of the Heritage equipment that is still roadworthy should be held onto as "Reserve Fleet," so if one or more of the Viewliners are taken out of service for whatever reason (such as a wreck), there will still be some backup equipment available to use until the Viewliners are fixed.


----------



## jis

Depends on how much it costs to keep equipment that require handcrafted parts, roadworthy.


----------



## R30A

Furthermore, even if the Lake Shore, Silver Star and Cardinal all get diners, AND the cardinal becomes daily, there will still be a fairly substantial spare factor, without keeping any Heritage cars active.


----------



## KnightRail

R30A said:


> Furthermore, even if the Lake Shore, Silver Star and Cardinal all get diners, AND the cardinal becomes daily, there will still be a fairly substantial spare factor, without keeping any Heritage cars active.


Exactly. 25 new diners plus 8400 makes 26 which is more than sufficient. There is no need to hoard old worn out heritage equipment. It's time to let it go.


----------



## neroden

4 (Crescent) + 4 (Star) + 4 (Meteor) + 3 (LSL) + 4 (Cardinal according to some!) = 19

+ 20% shop count of 4 = 23

+ 1 protect each in Miami, New Orleans, Chicago + 2 protect in NY == 28

26 is not sufficient for expansion It's not even the number you want for the existing trains, really.

If the daily Cardinal only takes 3 and you only have 1 protect in NY you have exactly enough.

Anything further (such as the suggested branch of the Crescent to Fort Worth) is stealing from another train (most likely the Star, which may never get its dining car back).

The Heritage cars are beyond unmaintainable at this point and must be retired. But I do think that 26 dining cars isn't enough; Amtrak needs to get a few extras in case of wrecks, at least.


----------



## A Voice

neroden said:


> + 1 protect each in Miami, New Orleans, Chicago + 2 protect in NY == 28


If Amtrak doesn't maintain 'protect' cars with Heritage equipment old enough to draw Social Security - and they do not - they certainly shouldn't need to with new Viewliner dining cars.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

from reliable source: Should be an Amtrak special going to Elmira from Albany on Monday April 24th to pick up some new Diners. Amtrak Crew onduty at 7am in Albany. Power should be the 514 going south, a coach, and a P42 on the north end. All subject to change of course.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Dutchrailnut said:


> from reliable source: Should be an Amtrak special going to Elmira from Albany on Monday April 24th to pick up some new Diners. Amtrak Crew onduty at 7am in Albany. Power should be the 514 going south, a coach, and a P42 on the north end. All subject to change of course.


Hopefully this isn't Fake News,aka Trump World's "Alternate Reality". 
If so it's Great News!

Once the testing is done, we'll have long threads here discussing which Trains will get the Diners first!


----------



## me_little_me

I guess there's no chance of the Star getting its diners back by the middle of next month for my upcoming trip. Oh well! :wacko:


----------



## Bob Dylan

According to posts on trainorders, Friday CAF will serve up Two Diners,68002 (Atlanta) and 68003 (Agusta).

Hopefully the testing will go well, and many more will be rolling out of the Factory!


----------



## jis

That information was originally posted here, though in a coded form.


----------



## Anthony V

me_little_me said:


> I guess there's no chance of the Star getting its diners back by the middle of next month for my upcoming trip. Oh well! :wacko:


Take the Meteor if you want a diner.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Anthony V said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there's no chance of the Star getting its diners back by the middle of next month for my upcoming trip. Oh well! :wacko:
> 
> 
> 
> Take the Meteor if you want a diner.
Click to expand...

The Meteor does not serve all the stations the Star serves so that may not be an option for him.


----------



## me_little_me

Anthony V said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess there's no chance of the Star getting its diners back by the middle of next month for my upcoming trip. Oh well! :wacko:
> 
> 
> 
> Take the Meteor if you want a diner.
Click to expand...

Too long a wait for the Meteor as it doesn't stop in Cary, my departure station. It was only a joke as the Star might not get diners back this year, if ever.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Bob Dylan said:


> According to posts on trainorders, Friday CAF will serve up Two Diners,68002 (Atlanta) and 68003 (Agusta).
> 
> Hopefully the testing will go well, and many more will be rolling out of the Factory!


I read just now on trainorders that they're leaving tomorrow, not Friday.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to posts on trainorders, Friday CAF will serve up Two Diners,68002 (Atlanta) and 68003 (Agusta).
> 
> Hopefully the testing will go well, and many more will be rolling out of the Factory!
> 
> 
> 
> I read just now on trainorders that they're leaving tomorrow, not Friday.
Click to expand...


These are not test cars, Bob Dylan. Once they make to to HIA, they will undergo a few mods and barring any unforeseen issues, be released for revenue service.

Speaking of the Meteor, Wednesday is the moment for Ryan and Blue to shine. Hopefully they can grab some pictures of the cargo on the rear.


----------



## Thirdrail7

WoodyinNYC said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder whether we will first see a route *abandon its Heritage*, or whether we will see a *Restoration*. (Hoping for the latter.)
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I know the Lake Shore Ltd is your train, but I'm hoping it gets new diners last. Among the many advantages of the new cars should be improved reliability in every way. One way that matters a lot to Amtrak, is cars that fail on the NEC, and cars that go slow on the NEC.
> 
> When ALL the slow and failure-prone Heritage cars are gone from the NEC, the On Time Performance should improve for ALL other trains. You can't get the full effect you need with many new cars replacing many Heritage cars, or replacing most of them. It's ALL or nothing. And it's worth it.
> 
> So the one and only LD train that never operates on the NEC should be the last to benefit from new diners. Such is life.
Click to expand...


None of that will matter until they've finished the truck profiles on the existing viewliner fleet, Woody. When that occurs, your statement may hold water.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Speaking of the Meteor, Wednesday is the moment for Ryan and Blue to shine. Hopefully they can grab some pictures of the cargo on the rear.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to posts on trainorders, Friday CAF will serve up Two Diners,68002 (Atlanta) and 68003 (Agusta).
> 
> Hopefully the testing will go well, and many more will be rolling out of the Factory!
> 
> 
> 
> I read just now on trainorders that they're leaving tomorrow, not Friday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These are not test cars, Bob Dylan. Once they make to to HIA, they will undergo a few mods and barring any unforeseen issues, be released for revenue service.
> 
> Speaking of the Meteor, Wednesday is the moment for Ryan and Blue to shine. Hopefully they can grab some pictures of the cargo on the rear.
Click to expand...

Weather looks promising. Rain should be gone by the time it comes by me.


----------



## pennyk

Ryan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of the Meteor, Wednesday is the moment for Ryan and Blue to shine. Hopefully they can grab some pictures of the cargo on the rear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 59675328.jpg
Click to expand...

May I assume that they will pass me on Thursday?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Thirdrail7 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder whether we will first see a route *abandon its Heritage*, or whether we will see a *Restoration*. (Hoping for the latter.)
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I know the Lake Shore Ltd is your train, but I'm hoping it gets new diners last. Among the many advantages of the new cars should be improved reliability in every way. One way that matters a lot to Amtrak, is cars that fail on the NEC, and cars that go slow on the NEC.
> 
> When ALL the slow and failure-prone Heritage cars are gone from the NEC, the On Time Performance should improve for ALL other trains. You can't get the full effect you need with many new cars replacing many Heritage cars, or replacing most of them. It's ALL or nothing. And it's worth it.
> 
> So the one and only LD train that never operates on the NEC should be the last to benefit from new diners. Such is life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> None of that will matter until they've finished the truck profiles on the existing viewliner fleet, Woody. When that occurs, your statement may hold water.
Click to expand...

You mean, we get to wait for Viewliners all over again? Oy vey.

But thanks for that info. I didn't know that.

It does make me think that upgrading the Viewliner I sleepers will not be indefinitely delayed, as some have suggested here.


----------



## Palmetto

pennyk said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of the Meteor, Wednesday is the moment for Ryan and Blue to shine. Hopefully they can grab some pictures of the cargo on the rear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 59675328.jpg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> May I assume that they will pass me on Thursday?
Click to expand...

That would be correct. On train 97.


----------



## PaulM

Thirdrail7 said:


> None of that will matter until they've finished the truck profiles on the existing viewliner fleet, Woody. When that occurs, your statement may hold water.


For the ordinary Amtrak customer, what is a truck profile and how does the existing viewliner fleet relate to the appearance of new diners?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

PaulM said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of that will matter until they've finished the truck profiles on the existing viewliner fleet, Woody. When that occurs, your statement may hold water.
> 
> 
> 
> For the ordinary Amtrak customer, what is a truck profile and how does the existing viewliner fleet relate to the appearance of new diners?
Click to expand...

Without the heritage diners in the consist, it makes sense for the Viewliner Is to be approved for 125 MPH operation on the NEC.


----------



## jis

The point Thirdrail is making I think is that it will be quite a while before that becomes reality even though everyone agrees with that being a goal.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Thirdrail7,

If I may ask, what does the truck profile work on the VIs entail? Do I recall correctly there were some trains run on the NEC a while back that were part of the certification for VI 125mph certification? How long will all that take? Because if I read Amtrak timetables right, my guess is that they could shave close to an hour (fifty minutes probably) off the Long Distance train schedules on the NEC, which is a pretty big time savings.

Cheers,

Nick


----------



## Acela150

Ngotwalt said:


> Thirdrail7,
> 
> If I may ask, what does the truck profile work on the VIs entail? Do I recall correctly there were some trains run on the NEC a while back that were part of the certification for VI 125mph certification? How long will all that take? Because if I read Amtrak timetables right, my guess is that they could shave close to an hour (fifty minutes probably) off the Long Distance train schedules on the NEC, which is a pretty big time savings.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick


An hour?? More like 5-10 minutes at best.


----------



## jis

Right, 10 mins would be spectacular.

There is only maybe 100 miles of 125mph instead of 110mph.

The time difference would be 55 mins at 110mph vs. 48 mins or so at 125mph.

Most of the loose time in the timetable is to account for the lower priority at which the LD trains run on the Corridor and not the absolute speed at which they can run.


----------



## StriderGDM

Yeah, by itself, you don't save much time (there's not just enough distance nor difference in speed).

BUT, you do make scheduling a bit easier when more of your trains are all running at the same speeds.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

97(26) with two new diners bringing up the markers. Atlanta & Augusta.
Fox Point State Park, DE

97_WithTwoNewDiners_AtlantaAugusta_2017-04-26.mov


----------



## PVD

The LD trains also handle checked baggage at many stops, that adds to station time.


----------



## mgl1978

From today

https://youtu.be/zSbqyuouMNk


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> 97(26) with two new diners bringing up the markers. Atlanta & Augusta.
> 
> Fox Point State Park, DE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 97_WithTwoNewDiners_AtlantaAugusta_2017-04-26.mov


I wasn't going out for several reasons.. Traffic in Philly has been terrible this week due to the NFL draft. 97 comes through Philly at 5pm no way.. The anti railfan clouds were out today. So that just added to the reasons not to go.



mgl1978 said:


> From today
> 
> https://youtu.be/zSbqyuouMNk


That's quite a train.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Acela150 said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7,
> 
> If I may ask, what does the truck profile work on the VIs entail? Do I recall correctly there were some trains run on the NEC a while back that were part of the certification for VI 125mph certification? How long will all that take? Because if I read Amtrak timetables right, my guess is that they could shave close to an hour (fifty minutes probably) off the Long Distance train schedules on the NEC, which is a pretty big time savings.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> An hour?? More like 5-10 minutes at best.
Click to expand...

In other news I apparently can't read a timetable...and mixed up Alexandria with Washington...several times. I revise my statement to about fifteen minutes...and shutting up.

Nick


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

Well, at least the progress of the new diners is coming along now!


----------



## tommylicious

Yes the diners are beauties. Any idea what lines they're going to join?


----------



## GaSteve

tommylicious said:


> Yes the diners are beauties. Any idea what lines they're going to join?


Single level eastern trains - Silver, Crescent, etc.


----------



## tommylicious

no LSL???


----------



## CCC1007

tommylicious said:


> no LSL???


Etc. means "and more" such as the cardinal and lake shore limited.


----------



## Eric S

tommylicious said:


> no LSL???


Where do you get that idea?


----------



## PVD

The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.


----------



## JohannFarley

PVD said:


> The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.


That 3 being 2 and a spare, yes?


----------



## CCC1007

JohannFarley said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.
> 
> 
> 
> That 3 being 2 and a spare, yes?
Click to expand...

Nope, 3 train sets circulating on the LSL


----------



## JohannFarley

CCC1007 said:


> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.
> 
> 
> 
> That 3 being 2 and a spare, yes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, 3 train sets circulating on the LSL
Click to expand...

Interesting, I always thought there was only 1 in each direction at a time, splitting and rejoining at Albany. Learn something new everyday.


----------



## Acela150

Ngotwalt said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7,
> 
> If I may ask, what does the truck profile work on the VIs entail? Do I recall correctly there were some trains run on the NEC a while back that were part of the certification for VI 125mph certification? How long will all that take? Because if I read Amtrak timetables right, my guess is that they could shave close to an hour (fifty minutes probably) off the Long Distance train schedules on the NEC, which is a pretty big time savings.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> An hour?? More like 5-10 minutes at best.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In other news I apparently can't read a timetable...and mixed up Alexandria with Washington...several times. I revise my statement to about fifteen minutes...and shutting up.
> 
> Nick
Click to expand...

Trust me when I say. It's ok.  Just be glad you didn't mix up the two if you were getting off the train. 



PVD said:


> The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.


This is true. To add to the info in your post. The LSL was selected to lose its diner as it only serves two meals in each direction. Compared to the Meteor or the Crescent. Which serve I believe 3. If not 4.


----------



## DennisInGeorgia

Seems like a long train just to pick up 2 cars. Is that to comfortably handle a quite-large crew? But at a minimum, what are the 2 cars just behind the bag? Bag/sleeper combination? Wow!


----------



## PerRock

DennisInGeorgia said:


> Seems like a long train just to pick up 2 cars. Is that to comfortably handle a quite-large crew? But at a minimum, what are the 2 cars just behind the bag? Bag/sleeper combination? Wow!


It's a revenue train that's hauling 2 new cars down in addition to it's normal service. The two cars at the very end are the new Dining cars it picked up.

peter


----------



## Agent

Another video from yesterday of the two new diners on the _Silver Meteor_. This one was taken at New York Pennsylvania Station by The [Transport Net]. It looks like there were a few people in the diners.


----------



## CSXfoamer1997

tommylicious said:


> Yes the diners are beauties. Any idea what lines they're going to join?


The eastern single-level long-distance trains: The Silver Meteor, The Silver Star (if, of course, they ever put the diner back on), the Crescent, the Cardinal (I think), and the Lake Shore Limited.


----------



## jis

I got hold of Joe McHugh at the NARP Reception and bent his ears a bit about returning Diners to the Star. He said that once all the new Diners are delivered they will have the flexibility to revisit the issue, which of course is as good a non committal and yet non-negative answer that one could give.


----------



## tommylicious

Wow those cars are beauties. Just hope Amtrak doesn't force them to serve private prison cost-minimized slop and instead gives them real food!


----------



## Ziv

They do look good. Odd note that I took away is that #8532 is a Dining Car but Atlanta and Augusta are Diners. The increasingly casual, plebeian, monosyllabic nature of American society? Dining Cars imply china plates but Diners are ok with disposable plates? LOL!

I hope these new Diners keep showing up on a regular basis!


----------



## Lonestar648

Saying "Diner" does open the door for a wide variety of food service, leaning more towards the paper/plastic plate service. Miss the meals from the Dining Car days. Unfortunately, people are less and less formal in most everything, so probably, the Marketing Dept. wanted to keep to the less formal format.


----------



## west point

PVD said:


> Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.


What we all need to accept is that there are not any known facts about the V-2 diners or the Heritage diners. How long are each of the H-1s going to last ? How soon will temporary service of the V-2 and new problems be found and changed ? Will new V-2s go on Silvers with spare H-1 in MIA and NYP ? After next batch of V-2s are delivered and approved for constant service where the first 2 , 3, 4 go ?

If this poster was planning once at least 4 -6 V-2s in service 3 H-1s would be assigned to LSL only if they are still serviceable. Once 8 H-1 removed from front line service would keep a spare H-1 in NOL, CHI, MIA, NYP to protect the upgraded diner service that Moorman has instituted.

All in all the uncertainty of V-2 deliveries, acceptance time, route proved, and H-1 failure means that probably Amtrak has several plans depending on various permutations of the various uncertainties. Of course there may be more ? ?

In the airline industry there is usually a 2 - 3 month delay of a direct airplane replacement in case of new airplane develops unforeseen problems.


----------



## PVD

That's why I said "hopefully", the tone of "wishful thinking" I know better than to say this or that is definitely going to happen.


----------



## west point

If I were Amtrak would keep Heritage on LSL until V-2s all on NYP <> WASH LD trains. Remember the Heritage MAS appears to be 90 MPH. 90 MPH on the higher speeds of NYP <> WASH get more interference than the LSL route. Even NJT, SEPTA, & MARC also operate faster than 90 MPH.


----------



## Ryan

The LSL hasn't had a Heritage diner since last summer, so it isn't possible to keep one on there.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> Thirdrail7,
> 
> If I may ask, what does the truck profile work on the VIs entail? Do I recall correctly there were some trains run on the NEC a while back that were part of the certification for VI 125mph certification? How long will all that take? Because if I read Amtrak timetables right, my guess is that they could shave close to an hour (fifty minutes probably) off the Long Distance train schedules on the NEC, which is a pretty big time savings.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick


Well, technically they have to adjust the wheels from the Apta wheel profile to the NRCC Wheel Proflie. 

What that exactly entails is over my head but from what I understand, they have to do something to the actual trucks on the Viewliner Is. I was told is was something minor



Ngotwalt said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> An hour?? More like 5-10 minutes at best.
> 
> 
> 
> In other news I apparently can't read a timetable...and mixed up Alexandria with Washington...several times. I revise my statement to about fifteen minutes...and shutting up.
> 
> Nick
Click to expand...

The traffic load makes all of the difference in the world. However, if the northbound trains remain "discharge" only, the run could be made 2'45" although I doubt they'll schedule it. One day, 50 showed up on the NEC without its sleeper ,which made it a "B" train (125 max.) It made the run in 2:32. Two weeks late, it made the run with its sleeper (110 max) and they made the run over the NEC in 2:33 minutes. Someone in high (though unrelated to a T&E position) accused the crew of speeding, saying it was impossible for this to happen since they had a decent load and a war broke out.

So, don't understand the potential of 125 max with an efficient crew, no traffic and creative dispatching.



west point said:


> If I were Amtrak would keep Heritage on LSL until V-2s all on NYP <> WASH LD trains. Remember the Heritage MAS appears to be 90 MPH. 90 MPH on the higher speeds of NYP <> WASH get more interference than the LSL route. Even NJT, SEPTA, & MARC also operate faster than 90 MPH.


Heritage equipment is good for 110mph. The only heritage equipment that wasn't is the 10031 dome car and they raised that to 110mph last year.


----------



## jis

JohannFarley said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.
> 
> 
> 
> That 3 being 2 and a spare, yes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, 3 train sets circulating on the LSL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting, I always thought there was only 1 in each direction at a time, splitting and rejoining at Albany. Learn something new everyday.
Click to expand...

If you want to think of it in those terms, the way to see it is that there is one set running each way and one overnighting in Sunnyside/Southampton Street. That is how you get three.

In general if you have a service that runs over one night, if a consist can be turned at each end without spending a night at the end point, you'd require two sets. If a consist has to stay overnight at one end you'd require three, and if a consist has to stay overnight at both ends, you'd need four (hence, the silvers and Crescent need four).


----------



## JohannFarley

jis said:


> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.
> 
> 
> 
> That 3 being 2 and a spare, yes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, 3 train sets circulating on the LSL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting, I always thought there was only 1 in each direction at a time, splitting and rejoining at Albany. Learn something new everyday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you want to think of it in those terms, the way to see it is that there is one set running each way and one overnighting in Sunnyside/Southampton Street. That is how you get three.
> In general if you have a service that runs over one night, if a consist can be turned at each end without spending a night at the end point, you'd require two sets. If a consist has to stay overnight at one end you'd require three, and if a consist has to stay overnight at both ends, you'd need four (hence, the silvers and Crescent need four).
Click to expand...

Ahh ok, that makes sense. I'm quite new to the technicalities of operations so I don't know these things.


----------



## A Voice

JohannFarley said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JohannFarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The LSL lost full diners not because of a decision to down grade the train, but in response to the shrinking numbers of available Heritage diners. Hopefully, in the not to distant future, the pace of diner deliveries will advance to the point where new diners arrive faster than Heritage fall out of service, and the LSL is back on board. I believe the LSL has 3 sets, so you would need to be + 3 over the present complement.
> 
> 
> 
> That 3 being 2 and a spare, yes?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope, 3 train sets circulating on the LSL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting, I always thought there was only 1 in each direction at a time, splitting and rejoining at Albany. Learn something new everyday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you want to think of it in those terms, the way to see it is that there is one set running each way and one overnighting in Sunnyside/Southampton Street. That is how you get three.
> In general if you have a service that runs over one night, if a consist can be turned at each end without spending a night at the end point, you'd require two sets. If a consist has to stay overnight at one end you'd require three, and if a consist has to stay overnight at both ends, you'd need four (hence, the silvers and Crescent need four).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ahh ok, that makes sense. I'm quite new to the technicalities of operations so I don't know these things.
Click to expand...

The easiest way to figure how many trainsets are required is to determine how many departures will pass until the first set out can return to the origin point and be serviced. For instance, the _City of New Orleans_ leaves Chicago on a Monday evening, arriving in New Orleans on Tuesday afternoon at 3:32; It's northbound counterpart has already departed, so obviously the train turns overnight, arriving back in Chicago on Thursday at 9:00. That leaves nearly eleven hours until train 59's southbound departure, so the train can make a same day turn. Hence, you need three trainsets to cover departures Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday; The first set which went out Monday is again available to cover Thursday's train.

In the past, Amtrak had instituted 'run-through' operations with some trains at Chicago, such as the arriving eastbound _Empire Builder_ continuing on south to New Orleans as the same day train 59 (with the Builder's extra cars along for the ride, but unoccupied).


----------



## Lonestar648

Didn't they also do run through TE to CL for a while since both use a similar consist in the winter?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Lonestar648 said:


> Didn't they also do run through TE to CL for a while since both use a similar consist in the winter?


I think it was TE-CONO - or at least the shared equipment.


----------



## Lonestar648

The TE and CONO have the same consists with the CCC. The CL also runs the CCC with two Sleepers, so the EB is a closer match except the DC. except the extra Portland coaches and sleeper.


----------



## Bob Dylan

AmtrakBlue said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't they also do run through TE to CL for a while since both use a similar consist in the winter?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was TE-CONO - or at least the shared equipment.
Click to expand...

Blue is correct!


----------



## OBS

The SWC used to have the run thru with the CL...


----------



## Ngotwalt

The CONO used the Portland Section of the Builder as run through equipment.

Nick


----------



## CraigDK

Just to return to the Viewliners. It took about a month for the Annapolis to be put in service after arriving in FL, any chance that Atlanta and Augusta get placed in service quicker than that?


----------



## KnightRail

CraigDK said:


> It took about a month for the Annapolis to be put in service after arriving in FL, any chance that Atlanta and Augusta get placed in service quicker than that?


Upon initial arrival to FL, Annapolis was at the Hialeah facility for 11 days before making a return north for marketing to use for a few days. Then it returned to Hialeah for 17 days before making its first revenue run. Since then the ONLY train it has been in revenue service on is the Silver Meteor. That should be a pretty good indicator where Atlanta and Augusta will be working for awhile. It shouldn't be too long till they enter service.


----------



## jis

Hopefully now they will get into a regular cadence for delivering the Diners a car or two every week or two.


----------



## keelhauled

jis said:


> Hopefully now they will get into a regular cadence for delivering the Diners a car or two every week or two.


On the other hand, if you expect nothing it's harder to be disappointed.


----------



## Ngotwalt

KnightRail said:


> CraigDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> It took about a month for the Annapolis to be put in service after arriving in FL, any chance that Atlanta and Augusta get placed in service quicker than that?
> 
> 
> 
> Upon initial arrival to FL, Annapolis was at the Hialeah facility for 11 days before making a return north for marketing to use for a few days. Then it returned to Hialeah for 17 days before making its first revenue run. Since then the ONLY train it has been in revenue service on is the Silver Meteor. That should be a pretty good indicator where Atlanta and Augusta will be working for awhile. It shouldn't be too long till they enter service.
Click to expand...

So the question is, how much of that was crew familiarization and training? My guess is that the first 11 days were inspections and modifications, and that 17 days were training because it doesn't make sense to train someone on something and then go and change it. My guess is, barring any problems these could be in service within a week to ten days.

Cheers,

Nick


----------



## tommylicious

18-36 weeks


----------



## WoodyinNYC

tommylicious said:


> 18-36 weeks


Just to keep things in perspective, CAF is leaving Nippon-Sharyo in the dust. LOL.

Amtrak should order at least 30 more sleepers from CAF, maybe 50, and a few more bag-dorms and baggage cars too. If we could see them in the fleet in 36 weeks -- or 72 weeks -- it would be a great thing.


----------



## StriderGDM

There is still in theory the option for 30 more cars. I highly doubt that will happen given the history and the current political environment.

BUT, it's possible. I'd go for like 18 more sleepers, 6 more diners, 6 more baggage cars (or baggage/dorms) and have 3 complete more trainsets.

But, it's not happening.


----------



## keelhauled

A complete trainset needs coaches, which considering limited number of Amfleet IIs and their age/mileage is IMO going to be the next rolling stock crisis to hit Amtrak. I would like to see a Viewliner coach built--it can't be that hard to stick chairs in the shell, the HVAC has been designed already, and cascade some Amfleet IIs for off corridor day trains that use low level platforms so the manual doors aren't an issue, and then in turn boost corridor capacity with Amfleet Is.


----------



## Carolina Special

I presume any additional orders for any type of car would have to be approved by the Congress in the budget process. In the unlikely event Amtrak had money left at year end (after a lengthy government shutdown, maybe) they couldn't just order a handful of coaches or sleepers to get the ball rolling for the future without the government OK.

Am I correct in that?


----------



## Lonestar648

This is the crazy thing. Amtrak is suppose to be a corporation, but Amtrak can't do anything to try to be better with out Congress putting it into legislation.


----------



## keelhauled

The federal allocation for the national network says that it can be used for "capital funding," so presumably Amtrak would be able to use that money for purchasing equipment, assuming they can set enough aside to run the trains first. Alternately, if they can make a business case for it they could apply for an RRIF loan. Neither of those require Congressional approval. I rather wish there was a dedicated allocation for "capital projects," like equipment or track improvements, in addition to the operating subsidies for the national/NEC business units, but I doubt that will ever happen.


----------



## jis

That won't happen mainly because we just got away from that piece of micromanagement giving Amtrak the freedom to make its own business decision.


----------



## jis

Carolina Special said:


> I presume any additional orders for any type of car would have to be approved by the Congress in the budget process. In the unlikely event Amtrak had money left at year end (after a lengthy government shutdown, maybe) they couldn't just order a handful of coaches or sleepers to get the ball rolling for the future without the government OK.
> 
> Am I correct in that?


Amtrak Board has to approve it. Not Congress. The capital - expense split is gone AFAICT as part of the FAST Act.


----------



## keelhauled

jis said:


> That won't happen mainly because we just got away from that piece of micromanagement giving Amtrak the freedom to make its own business decision.


The freedom to make their own decisions doesn't mean much if so little money is allocated as to force their hand though. It's a choice in name only.


----------



## jis

Yeah whatever. I was merely stating what the current situation is. Of course more money would be better, but we've got what we've got.


----------



## Carolina Special

It helps to know what the current situation is. Thanks!


----------



## KnightRail

Annapolis moving to New Orleans for the first time, landing there Sunday. Hopefully no trees get in the way.


----------



## IndyLions

I'm taking the City of New Orleans the 2nd week of November round trip Champaign IL to New Orleans. What are the best guesstimates /odds it will have a real diner by then?

I was just checking out the current menu options. Pretty darn depressing.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

IndyLions said:


> I'm taking the City of New Orleans the 2nd week of November round trip Champaign IL to New Orleans. What are the best guesstimates /odds it will have a real diner by then?
> 
> I was just checking out the current menu options. Pretty darn depressing.


Zero.

The new Viewliner II diners are for the six Eastern LD trains that use the low-ceiling tracks and platforms at Penn Station. None of them are headed to the Western trains such as the CONO.

The menu may or may not improve without new diners out West, for other reasons.

Feel free to remain depressed.


----------



## Lonestar648

The CONO runs the CCC combo cafe/dining car, also found on the TE and the CL. These are bi-level, much taller than the new Viewliner DC. Amtrak took the cooking position off the CONO, maybe as an experiment but has never gone back. The only word of encouragement came from the new Amtrak CEO when he mentioned eating on the train in the DC was important part of train travel.


----------



## IndyLions

Thanks - this was officially the dumbest post I've ever made on a forum - ever. I knew CONO was Superliner and had a "Senior moment" at age 51.

I hope Moorman restores decent food on this train. It's one thing to be short of the right equipment - quite another to have appropriate equipment and not utilize it.


----------



## lo2e

Haha, there are some days I'd swear I forget my name, nevermind anything else! Wait, who am I again? :giggle:


----------



## Phil S

IndyLions said:


> Thanks - this was officially the dumbest post I've ever made on a forum - ever. I knew CONO was Superliner and had a "Senior moment" at age 51.


Now, what was I trying to do? Oh yeah. Remember my name!


----------



## stappend

Any news on if the new cars are in service yet or what train they will be used on? While anything is possible and I'm personally hoping for a showing on the LSL by end of June I'm guessing they will swap out the remaining heritage on the Meteor.


----------



## Acela150

stappend said:


> Any news on if the new cars are in service yet or what train they will be used on? While anything is possible and I'm personally hoping for a showing on the LSL by end of June I'm guessing they will swap out the remaining heritage on the Meteor.


No. You'll know when something happens. The buffs will go wild.

There won't be a diner on the LSL for quite a while. At least until enough diners are in service and have proven themselves reliable. Currently their are not an extra 3 diners that could supply the LSL with a diner. The LSL was an obvious candidate to remove the diner from. It only serves two meals in each direction compared to the SM and Crescent.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

stappend said:


> Any news on if the new cars are in service yet or what train they will be used on? While anything is possible and I'm personally hoping for a showing on the LSL by end of June I'm guessing they will swap out the remaining heritage on the Meteor.


I'd say they'll be hitting the road sooner rather than later (1-2 weeks-ish?) based on their movements within Hialeah unless some major snafu pops up.


----------



## George K

If I've missed it in this thread, please excuse _my_ senior moment.

What's the current status of the Veiwliner II production?

All baggage cars have been delivered, right?

Two (?) diners have been delivered, right? Out of an order of how many?

What's the status of sleepers? What's the timeframe for delivery of those?


----------



## Ryan

3 Diners Delivered.

Annapolis is in service, Augusta and the other A-capital whose name escapes me have been delivered but not placed into revenue service.


----------



## George K

Ryan said:


> 3 Diners Delivered.
> 
> Annapolis is in service, Augusta and the other A-capital whose name escapes me have been delivered but not placed into revenue service.


Thanks, Ryan. Any idea how that fits with the "schedule?" I may be wrong, but it seems like about a year since the first diner has been delivered.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Ryan said:


> 3 Diners Delivered.
> 
> Annapolis is in service, Augusta and the other A-capital whose name escapes me have been delivered but not placed into revenue service.


The other one is Atlanta.


----------



## neroden

Acela150 said:


> stappend said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any news on if the new cars are in service yet or what train they will be used on? While anything is possible and I'm personally hoping for a showing on the LSL by end of June I'm guessing they will swap out the remaining heritage on the Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> No. You'll know when something happens. The buffs will go wild.
> 
> There won't be a diner on the LSL for quite a while. At least until enough diners are in service and have proven themselves reliable. Currently their are not an extra 3 diners that could supply the LSL with a diner. The LSL was an obvious candidate to remove the diner from. It only serves two meals in each direction compared to the SM and Crescent.
Click to expand...

It actually was the obvious candidate to *retain* the diner, as it makes more money from it than the other trains -- based on various reports, it appeared to have by far the highest percentage of coach passengers eating in the diner of all the single-level trains. (It's really hard to tell what percentage of sleeper revenue is induced by the dining car service due to the "meals included" pricing, but coach revenue is real.) But I don't think Amtrak management is capable of doing accounting, as they've proven repeatedly.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

George K said:


> What's the current status of the Veiwliner II production?
> 
> All baggage cars have been delivered, right?
> 
> Two (?) diners have been delivered, right? Out of an order of how many?
> 
> What's the status of sleepers? What's the timeframe for delivery of those?


Are we there yet? :giggle:

Not quite.

Yes, 70 baggage cars have been delivered and "almost all" the Heritage bag cars replaced. Three diners so far, one in December, and two more in April, iirc. More are on the way -- this year, maybe this summer, maybe next month, out of the 25 ordered.

Presumably the 10 bag-dorms will be next, followed by 25 Viewliner II sleepers.

The total order was for 130 cars, with an option for 70 more. Unless we can think of a good reason why Amtrak now needs less equipment than it figured in 2010 when placed the order, the Viewliner II fleet will be short by about 70 cars.

Indeed, according to Wikipedia,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewliner



> Amtrak's original intention in the 1980s was to order 500–600 new cars, of which 100 would be sleepers and the rest coaches, diners, and lounges.


Amtrak today has 50 [#number corrected] Viewliner I sleepers, to be joined by 25 Viewliner II sleepers, (and ten bag-dorms, equivalent to 5 more sleepers), perhaps as soon as next year. The 25 new sleepers (plus the bag-dorms) will improve capacity on all single-level trains by adding one more sleeper to each train set. At that point, the sleeper fleet for the Eastern LD trains will [still fall short of] the perceived need in the early 1980s, despite the massive increase in ridership since then.

Tho the option has probably expired, there could still be time to place another order with CAF before the production line shuts down and the expensively trained workforce is dissipated. But with Congress gone crazy ...


----------



## CCC1007

WoodyinNYC said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the current status of the Veiwliner II production?
> 
> All baggage cars have been delivered, right?
> 
> Two (?) diners have been delivered, right? Out of an order of how many?
> 
> What's the status of sleepers? What's the timeframe for delivery of those?
> 
> 
> 
> Are we there yet? :giggle:
> Not quite.
> 
> Yes, 70 baggage cars have been delivered and "almost all" the Heritage bag cars replaced. Three diners so far, one in December, and two more in April, iirc. More are on the way -- this year, maybe this summer, maybe next month, out of the 25 ordered.
> 
> Presumably the 10 bag-dorms will be next, followed by 25 Viewliner II sleepers.
> 
> The total order was for 130 cars, with an option for 70 more. Unless we can think of a good reason why Amtrak now needs less equipment than it figured in 2010 when placed the order, the Viewliner II fleet will be short by about 70 cars.
> 
> Indeed, according to Wikipedia,
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewliner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's original intention in the 1980s was to order 500–600 new cars, of which 100 would be sleepers and the rest coaches, diners, and lounges.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak today has 25 Viewliner I sleepers, to be joined by 25 Viewliner II sleepers, (and ten bag-dorms, equivalent to 5 more sleepers), perhaps as soon as next year. The 25 new sleepers (plus the bag-dorms) will improve capacity on all single-level trains by adding one more sleeper to each train set. At that point, the sleeper fleet for the Eastern LD trains will be barely half of the perceived need in the early 1980s, despite the massive increase in ridership since then.
> Tho the option has probably expired, there could still be time to place another order with CAF before the production line shuts down and the expensively trained workforce is dissipated. But with Congress gone crazy ...
Click to expand...

Don't they have 50 sleepers in service with 25 more on the way?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

CCC1007 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the current status of the Veiwliner II production?
> 
> All baggage cars have been delivered, right?
> 
> Two (?) diners have been delivered, right? Out of an order of how many?
> 
> What's the status of sleepers? What's the timeframe for delivery of those?
> 
> 
> 
> Are we there yet? :giggle:
> Not quite.
> 
> Yes, 70 baggage cars have been delivered and "almost all" the Heritage bag cars replaced. Three diners so far, one in December, and two more in April, iirc. More are on the way -- this year, maybe this summer, maybe next month -- out of the 25 ordered.
> 
> Presumably the 10 bag-dorms will be next, followed by 25 Viewliner II sleepers.
> 
> The total order was for 130 cars, with an option for 70 more. Unless we can think of a good reason why Amtrak now needs less equipment than it figured in 2010 when it placed the order, the Viewliner II fleet will be short by about 70 cars.
> 
> Indeed, according to Wikipedia,
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewliner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak's original intention in the 1980s was to order 500–600 new cars, of which 100 would be sleepers and the rest coaches, diners, and lounges.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak today has 50 [# corrected] Viewliner I sleepers, to be joined by 25 Viewliner II sleepers, (and ten bag-dorms, equivalent to 5 more sleepers), perhaps as soon as next year. The 25 new sleepers (plus the bag-dorms) will improve capacity on all single-level trains by adding one more sleeper to each train set. At that point, the sleeper fleet for the Eastern LD trains will [still fall short] of the perceived need in the early 1980s, despite the massive increase in ridership since then.
> Tho the option has probably expired, there could still be time to place another order with CAF before the production line shuts down and the expensively trained workforce is dissipated. But with Congress gone crazy ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't they have 50 sleepers in service with 25 more on the way?
Click to expand...

Yes, of course. Thanks. I should have gone to sleep some time ago.

Edited my post to fix the error.


----------



## lo2e

Nevermind - too early in the morning, not enough coffee yet!


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ryan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of the Meteor, Wednesday is the moment for Ryan and Blue to shine. Hopefully they can grab some pictures of the cargo on the rear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 59675328.jpg
Click to expand...

Are you still accepting missions? If all goes according to plan, keep a sharp on the meteor shower Monday morning. It looks like breakfast, Maine style..which beats that Sbarro's you have in Union station.

Perhaps Pennyk will advise us on Sunday?


----------



## Acela150

Penny is on a trip to points unknown :lol: and unable to enlighten us. But this guy may be able to help out. Providing I wake up in time.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of the Meteor, Wednesday is the moment for Ryan and Blue to shine. Hopefully they can grab some pictures of the cargo on the rear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 59675328.jpg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you still accepting missions? If all goes according to plan, keep a sharp on the meteor shower Monday morning. It looks like breakfast, Maine style..which beats that Sbarro's you have in Union station.
> 
> Perhaps Pennyk will advise us on Sunday?
Click to expand...

Penny left the country  Hope there isn't a wall to block her reentry.


----------



## Ryan

I actually have Monday morning off, since I'm getting on a plane later that afternoon.

Now I know what I'll be doing with all of my free time.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Augusta is going live.


----------



## StriderGDM

Excellent news!


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> I actually have Monday morning off, since I'm getting on a plane later that afternoon.
> 
> Now I know what I'll be doing with all of my free time.


You're such a buff! :lol: LOL!! Weather looks pretty crummy here so I may or may not go. We'll see.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I'll have to wait till it returns on 97 - assuming it's going to stay on the SM.


----------



## Acela150

If ThirdRail convinces the power desk to have 642 leading it from DC, then I'd for sure go out! LOL!!!


----------



## KnightRail

642 has better things to do this week, like clowning around one final time.


----------



## neroden

So this seems good. With a dining car accepted without a very long list of changes, maybe cars can start coming out of Elmira at a reasonable speed now? We can hope?


----------



## Bob Dylan

Santa, Ive been good so "All I want for Christmas is" some more Viewliners!


----------



## Jacob Goes By Jack

So did this actually happen? I don't see any photos or video on the internet... though I may just not know where to look...


----------



## Acela150

I wasn't able to get out. But if thirdrail says it happened. It happened.


----------



## Ryan

It was raining, and I didn't want to get wet.


----------



## KnightRail

Yes, the inaugural run for Augusta occurred as forshadowed. It completed a round trip and should start another tomorrow.


----------



## Acela150

Ryan said:


> It was raining, and I didn't want to get wet.


I wish I had that choice when I was shifting a cut of 60 cars.


----------



## keelhauled

Acela150 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was raining, and I didn't want to get wet.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had that choice when I was shifting a cut of 60 cars.
Click to expand...

When you start paying Ryan to take photos you can tell him to go out in the rain, till then it doesn't seem like you have any right to criticize.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

keelhauled said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was raining, and I didn't want to get wet.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had that choice when I was shifting a cut of 60 cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When you start paying Ryan to take photos you can tell him to go out in the rain, till then it doesn't seem like you have any right to criticize.
Click to expand...

I don't think he was criticizing. Just stating a fact. *smh*


----------



## Ryan

Acela150 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was raining, and I didn't want to get wet.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had that choice when I was shifting a cut of 60 cars.
Click to expand...

We had a saying in the Navy, shipmate... "Choose your rate, choose your fate". Looks like you chose poorly. 



keelhauled said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was raining, and I didn't want to get wet.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had that choice when I was shifting a cut of 60 cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When you start paying Ryan to take photos you can tell him to go out in the rain, till then it doesn't seem like you have any right to criticize.
Click to expand...








(hopefully it doesn't rain tomorrow morning)


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> keelhauled said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was raining, and I didn't want to get wet.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I had that choice when I was shifting a cut of 60 cars.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When you start paying Ryan to take photos you can tell him to go out in the rain, till then it doesn't seem like you have any right to criticize.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think he was criticizing. Just staring a fact. *smh*
Click to expand...

I was actually kidding. Ryan picked that up.


----------



## Ngotwalt

So, I guess the big question now is when can we expect some more?

Nick


----------



## KnightRail

And we have liftoff of Atlanta!

For those filling out scorecards:

Annapolis 12/5/2016

Augusta 5/21/2017

Atlanta 5/28/2017


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Augusta and Atlanta left plant 25 April. In service with 30 days after leaving the plant.


----------



## tommylicious

on which lines?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

tommylicious said:


> on which lines?


Silver Meteor


----------



## west point

Some of our posters need to keep new posters up to date on single level train car routings..

The train sets are rotated through the single level fleet so all cars are sent to MIA for scheduled maintenance. There are exceptions of course. No diner at present on the Star. New V-2 cars have been kept on the Silver trains so any problem can be quickly fixed at MIA. That is what happens when a diner is first certified as it is kept on Meteor until released for general service.

So Augusta and Atlanta will be on that route until released -- when ( ??? ) Annapolis is now rotating onto Crescent


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

west point said:


> Some of our posters need to keep new posters up to date on single level train car routings..
> 
> The train sets are rotated through the single level fleet so all cars are sent to MIA for scheduled maintenance. There are exceptions of course. No diner at present on the Star. New V-2 cars have been kept on the Silver trains so any problem can be quickly fixed at MIA. That is what happens when a diner is first certified as it is kept on Meteor until released for general service.
> 
> So Augusta and Atlanta will be on that route until released -- when ( ??? ) Annapolis is now rotating onto Crescent


I didn't realize Annapolis was already being used on the Crescent. Why does Amtrak rotate the cars anyway? Both trains have unique consists so it takes switching to move cars from a SM consist to a Crescent consist. Are the cars only rotated when one of them needs to be taken out of service for maintenance?


----------



## pennyk

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of our posters need to keep new posters up to date on single level train car routings..
> 
> The train sets are rotated through the single level fleet so all cars are sent to MIA for scheduled maintenance. There are exceptions of course. No diner at present on the Star. New V-2 cars have been kept on the Silver trains so any problem can be quickly fixed at MIA. That is what happens when a diner is first certified as it is kept on Meteor until released for general service.
> 
> So Augusta and Atlanta will be on that route until released -- when ( ??? ) Annapolis is now rotating onto Crescent
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't realize Annapolis was already being used on the Crescent. Why does Amtrak rotate the cars anyway? Both trains have unique consists so it takes switching to move cars from a SM consist to a Crescent consist. Are the cars only rotated when one of them needs to be taken out of service for maintenance?
Click to expand...

_This post was intended to be made by *twropr* but ended up in the wrong place, so I am copying and pasting it:_

On May 29, I observed diner 8400 Indianpolis on SILVER METEOR #97 at JAX and later that afternoon saw #68003 Augusta on #98. Heritage #8512 had been on #98 on 5/27

Andy


----------



## west point

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Why does Amtrak rotate the cars anyway? Both trains have unique consists so it takes switching to move cars from a SM consist to a Crescent consist. Are the cars only rotated when one of them needs to be taken out of service for maintenance?


OK time to clarify. Note SM and Crescent almost always same consist. Exceptions to be listed later.

1. The basic single level 9 car LD train set consists of 1 or 2 Locos, 2 V-1 Sleepers, Diner, Lounge, 4-Amfleet coaches,( mainly AM-2s ) and usually 1 V-2 baggage. Sometimes for whatever reason consist will be reversed.

2. That set up allows for Sunnyside yard to rotate the train sets freely between LSL, Crescent, Meteor, & Star. So whole train set can go to MIA replacing spare consist that has completed preventative Maintenance (PM).

3. The LSL does add the Boston section of another sleeper, and 2 Coaches ( often 1 combo BC and snack coach ), that combines with NYPS section at Albany. Boston cars are swapped around at CHI so they can go back to Sunnyside.

4. With the diner shortages the Stars lost their Diner and that was sometimes substituted with a Amfleet dinette. So maybe 8 or 9 cars total

5. The Cardinal is Diner less and has only a dinette, 1 sleeper, 2 -3 coaches baggage (?). When Cardinal train set(s) need to be swapped out at Sunnyside or CHI then some cars have to be transferred from another train to those sets. Note second sleeper is now on Cardinal for summer.

6. When V-2 cars are first entered into revenue service the cars stay on the Meteor or Star ( baggage only ) staying close to the MIA maintenance base. No problem was encountered at Sunnyside switching out Baggage cars on rear of trains to be on Meteor or Star. Now it has become more difficult to switch out Diners at Sunnyside to stay on Meteor and we can imagine when trains very late cannot happen so we see same consist for several trips on Meteor.

7. Now once Diners are released for general service rotating probationary a car is not needed.

8. When enough Diners are available the Star may get its diner back but it appears that upper Amtrak management has not made up its mind. As to whether any Heritage diners will be kept in service to temporary supplement V-2 Diners is another factor that cannot be known at this. Any other statement to contrary is pure speculation.

9. During very heavy travel times a 3rd & 4th Sleeper and another coach will be added to Meteor because that route has the highest revenue potential of other routes. We at all aware of lack of traffic south of Atlanta on Crescent. Sometimes LSL will get another sleeper at rush times,

10. Amtrak policy has stated in the Chief maintenance officers report (MPR) that just 2 V-1 sleepers will be at Beech Grove during high travel times which leaves 48 V-1 sleepers available for service. that would mean no spares if a sleeper goes bad order.

11. How V-2 sleepers will be integrated into the single level fleet is above all our pay grades and just open to pure speculation.


----------



## jis

The Meteor normally runs with three Sleepers all year round.


----------



## GaSteve

west point said:


> OK time to clarify. Note SM and Crescent almost always same consist. Exceptions to be listed later.
> 
> 1. The basic single level 9 car LD train set consists of 1 or 2 Locos, 2 V-1 Sleepers, Diner, Lounge, 4-Amfleet coaches,( mainly AM-2s ) and usually 1 V-2 baggage. Sometimes for whatever reason consist will be reversed.
> 
> 2. That set up allows for Sunnyside yard to rotate the train sets freely between LSL, Crescent, Meteor, & Star. So whole train set can go to MIA replacing spare consist that has completed preventative Maintenance (PM).
> 
> 3. The LSL does add the Boston section of another sleeper, and 2 Coaches ( often 1 combo BC and snack coach ), that combines with NYPS section at Albany. Boston cars are swapped around at CHI so they can go back to Sunnyside.
> 
> 4. With the diner shortages the Stars lost their Diner and that was sometimes substituted with a Amfleet dinette. So maybe 8 or 9 cars total
> 
> 5. The Cardinal is Diner less and has only a dinette, 1 sleeper, 2 -3 coaches baggage (?). When Cardinal train set(s) need to be swapped out at Sunnyside or CHI then some cars have to be transferred from another train to those sets. Note second sleeper is now on Cardinal for summer.
> 
> 6. When V-2 cars are first entered into revenue service the cars stay on the Meteor or Star ( baggage only ) staying close to the MIA maintenance base. No problem was encountered at Sunnyside switching out Baggage cars on rear of trains to be on Meteor or Star. Now it has become more difficult to switch out Diners at Sunnyside to stay on Meteor and we can imagine when trains very late cannot happen so we see same consist for several trips on Meteor.
> 
> 7. Now once Diners are released for general service rotating probationary a car is not needed.
> 
> 8. When enough Diners are available the Star may get its diner back but it appears that upper Amtrak management has not made up its mind. As to whether any Heritage diners will be kept in service to temporary supplement V-2 Diners is another factor that cannot be known at this. Any other statement to contrary is pure speculation.
> 
> 9. During very heavy travel times a 3rd & 4th Sleeper and another coach will be added to Meteor because that route has the highest revenue potential of other routes. We at all aware of lack of traffic south of Atlanta on Crescent. Sometimes LSL will get another sleeper at rush times,
> 
> 10. Amtrak policy has stated in the Chief maintenance officers report (MPR) that just 2 V-1 sleepers will be at Beech Grove during high travel times which leaves 48 V-1 sleepers available for service. that would mean no spares if a sleeper goes bad order.
> 
> 11. How V-2 sleepers will be integrated into the single level fleet is above all our pay grades and just open to pure speculation.


The Crescent has a Business Class coach that the Silver Service doesn't. It is a regular coach between the sleepers and the bag.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> So, I guess the big question now is when can we expect some more?
> 
> Nick























If nothing changes.


----------



## Acela150

So I heard on dare I say it.. TO.com.. :unsure:


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> So I heard on dare I say it.. TO.com.. :unsure:


The post at TO was after the post here  
This has also appeared on railroad.net.


----------



## StriderGDM

It's almost like a certain poster has accounts in multiple places


----------



## Ngotwalt

It's not like I have different handles, I'm NGotwalt on TO, RR.Net, & AU. I just pass things along. Also, Thirdrail7 posted on rr.net, I posted on Trainorders. Thirdrail7 I believe cam post to TOs but rarely does. It has a lot of good people there, but also the most well...idiots too. It's also west coast centric.

Nick


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I heard on dare I say it.. TO.com.. :unsure:
> 
> 
> 
> The post at TO was after the post here
> This has also appeared on railroad.net.
Click to expand...

I think it was one of those days where I had given up on AU for the day. Or it was the beginning of the day after and I went looking there for anything of interest. I don't know. :lol:


----------



## Ryan

So you're cheating on us, Steve?


----------



## neroden

So if I optimistically project 2 cars per month and 30 days testing, we might finally get the LSL diner back by November?

Here's hoping Amtrak can spped things up a bit...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

neroden said:


> So if I optimistically project 2 cars per month and 30 days testing, we might finally get the LSL diner back by November?
> 
> Here's hoping Amtrak can spped things up a bit...


I don't think they're doing 30 day testing anymore. They just need xx days to do some customization and initial stocking at the shops in Miami.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Assuming that all of the delivered Viewliners are active, there should only be one heritage diner in regular service by next month. There are currently 4 Viewliners with two more coming soon, and there are only 7 trainsets required for the SM and shortened Crescent. By the time the Crescent is returned to NYP and 8 sets are once again required, there should be 8 or potentially even 10 Viewliners.


----------



## west point

neroden said:


> So if I optimistically project 2 cars per month and 30 days testing, we might finally get the LSL diner back by November?
> 
> Here's hoping Amtrak can speed things up a bit...


But so far it has been 2+ months since 2 were delivered with indications of only 2 more June 20 ish. Generously 1 per month ? At that rate maybe all by March 2019. G--d hope not then we have the 10 Bag Dorms and 25 sleepers to go. January 2022 ? ? ?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

west point said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, *Neroden* said:
> 
> So if I optimistically project 2 cars per month and 30 days testing ...
> 
> Here's hoping Amtrak can speed things up a bit...
> 
> 
> 
> But so far it has been 2+ months since 2 were delivered, with indications of only 2 more June 20 ish. Generously 1 per month ?
> 
> At that rate maybe all by March 2019. ... then the 10 Bag Dorms and 25 sleepers to go. January 2022 ? ? ?
Click to expand...

Neroden, they have speeded things up already to get to one a month! LOL.

Anyway, look at the bright side. The very extended run allows ordering a handful or more Viewliner II sleepers and/or bag-dorms, even baggage cars and, wow!, a few more diners, wow!, if, next year or 2019, there's a clear, Congress-will-pay-for-it need by then.

If we still have elections in 2018 and 2020, we might get a Congress and Administration much more friendly to real investment in infrastructure, especially Amtrak and HSR. Or not.

Meanwhile it seems a recession is coming soonish, which could lead to Stimulus-sized spending. If it's jobs that Congress wants to see, the quickest way to get jobs would be to extend a production run that's coming to its end. So the jobs to be had are from CAF, in Elmira, NY, maybe not so much from Nippon-Sharyo in Rochelle, Ill.


----------



## pennyk

"Atlanta" new dining car is on 97 right now.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

I's been months -- years, really -- of folks popping up here just to ask, "Are we there yet?"

Now we're almost there, pulling in to the station, these recent posts from Thirdrail7 to now, has stimulated very little activity.

Am I missing something? Yeah, I know we have months to go on new diners, and the sleepers aren't even begun.

But with the Baton Rouge and the Boston cars in the fleet, there's enuff Viewliner II diners to equip all four trainsets of the Meteor. *Ride the Meteor, you will eat in a new diner.*

Soon enuff the diners will leave the production line, and new bag-dorms and sleepers will start to ooze their way out of Elmira.

Neroden and a partner (sorry, I'm old and forgetful) wrestled with the numbers some time back and concluded that each new sleeper could mean another $400,000 or more positive contribution (operating "profit").

The Meteor is probably positive right now, minus its assessed share of "overhead", but another $1.5 or $2 million will help things. When the Star, Crescent, and Lake Shore Ltd. also add new sleepers, it could be that the Eastern single-level trains as a group will be "profitable" before "overhead".

That difference could change the debate about ordering hundreds of new cars to modernize (and dare to expand) Amtrak's fleet.


----------



## Ziv

I am one of the people that logs onto this site every other day hoping to see good news from both the VL-2 and the Nippon-Sharya threads. At least one of these threads is showing forward progress, albeit slow progress. I am really happy every time I see another VL-2 diner hit the track. I have given up on NS, which is a pity since my favorite train is the Empire Builder since it rolls through my old home town and my Dad took me on it twice when I was a kid. I wish that NS hadn't acquiesced in the design requirement for the weight reduction, but they probably would have lost the bid if they had said that it was an unrealistic requirement at that price point.

Since the bi-level order is mostly dead, I now hope that we can get as many sleepers as is possible tacked onto the VL-2 order. I have also wondered if it would be a remote possibility that Amtrak could actually get enough new coaches, as well, to turn the Capital Limited into a VL-2 train instead of using Superliner cars, freeing up cars for whatever western routes could actually use extra capacity. It won't happen, but it would be cool to see the EB have two daily departures from Chicago and Seattle, but I have to imagine that there are other routes that would have a higher passenger count if 20 or 30 Superliners were freed up from the Cap Limited.



WoodyinNYC said:


> I's been months -- years, really -- of folks popping up here just to ask, "Are we there yet?"
> 
> Now we're almost there, pulling in to the station, these recent posts from Thirdrail7 to now, has stimulated very little activity.
> 
> Am I missing something? Yeah, I know we have months to go on new diners, and the sleepers aren't even begun.
> 
> .


----------



## PerRock

The Nippon-Shayro order isn't going to effect the Empire Builder at all. The cars they're building will primarily replace the Horizon cars used on the corridor trains out of Chicago.

peter


----------



## stappend

KnightRail said:


> And we have liftoff of Atlanta!
> 
> For those filling out scorecards:
> 
> Annapolis 12/5/2016
> 
> Augusta 5/21/2017
> 
> Atlanta 5/28/2017


I've lost track. Is Albany, 68000, also in service now for a total of 4 with 2 more expected in a week.


----------



## jis

stappend said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> And we have liftoff of Atlanta!
> 
> For those filling out scorecards:
> 
> Annapolis 12/5/2016
> 
> Augusta 5/21/2017
> 
> Atlanta 5/28/2017
> 
> 
> 
> I've lost track. Is Albany, 68000, also in service now for a total of 4 with 2 more expected in a week.
Click to expand...

Albany is not in service, and rumor has it that it will be the last one to come out.

Annapolis, Augusta and Atlanta are in service together with Indianapolis for a total of four Viewliner Diners in service. Boston and Baton Rouge are about to come out making the total six.


----------



## GaSteve

jis said:


> stappend said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> And we have liftoff of Atlanta!
> 
> For those filling out scorecards:
> 
> Annapolis 12/5/2016
> 
> Augusta 5/21/2017
> 
> Atlanta 5/28/2017
> 
> 
> 
> I've lost track. Is Albany, 68000, also in service now for a total of 4 with 2 more expected in a week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Albany is not in service, and rumor has it that it will be the last one to come out.
> 
> Annapolis, Augusta and Atlanta are in service together with Indianapolis for a total of four Viewliner Diners in service. Boston and Baton Rouge are about to come out making the total six.
Click to expand...

Is there not going to be an Ann Arbor?


----------



## jis

GaSteve said:


> Is there not going to be an Ann Arbor?


No
you can see all the name and number assignments here:

http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-viewname.shtml#viewdiner


----------



## mycalpal

jis said:


> stappend said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> And we have liftoff of Atlanta!
> 
> For those filling out scorecards:
> 
> Annapolis 12/5/2016
> 
> Augusta 5/21/2017
> 
> Atlanta 5/28/2017
> 
> 
> 
> I've lost track. Is Albany, 68000, also in service now for a total of 4 with 2 more expected in a week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Albany is not in service, and rumor has it that it will be the last one to come out.
> 
> Annapolis, Augusta and Atlanta are in service together with Indianapolis for a total of four Viewliner Diners in service. Boston and Baton Rouge are about to come out making the total six.
> 
> Does anyone know why the Albany 68000 may be the last diner to come out? Will it be assigned to the LSL? Thank you!
Click to expand...


----------



## PVD

Lansing is the Michigan capitol and is on the list.


----------



## A Voice

PerRock said:


> The Nippon-Shayro order isn't going to effect the Empire Builder at all. The cars they're building will primarily replace the Horizon cars used on the corridor trains out of Chicago.
> 
> peter


Or, rather the cars they're _not_ building. Rumors _seem_ to point to the states requesting bids on a revised order for single-level cars, depending on funding.



GaSteve said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stappend said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> And we have liftoff of Atlanta!
> 
> For those filling out scorecards:
> 
> Annapolis 12/5/2016
> 
> Augusta 5/21/2017
> 
> Atlanta 5/28/2017
> 
> 
> 
> I've lost track. Is Albany, 68000, also in service now for a total of 4 with 2 more expected in a week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Albany is not in service, and rumor has it that it will be the last one to come out.
> 
> Annapolis, Augusta and Atlanta are in service together with Indianapolis for a total of four Viewliner Diners in service. Boston and Baton Rouge are about to come out making the total six.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there not going to be an Ann Arbor?
Click to expand...

Well, it's not a state capitol, so probably not. The complete list of names is available at the on-track-on-line website.

Albany is _rumored_ to be the last to be delivered because it requires the greatest modifications from its initial (delivered for test/evaluation) configuration.


----------



## Ziv

Thanks for the heads up, PerRock. I thought that new NS cars would free up bi-level coaches for other lines. The more I learn about Amtrak the more I realize I don't know much. :unsure:



PerRock said:


> The Nippon-Shayro order isn't going to effect the Empire Builder at all. The cars they're building will primarily replace the Horizon cars used on the corridor trains out of Chicago.
> 
> peter


----------



## MikefromCrete

Ziv said:


> Thanks for the heads up, PerRock. I thought that new NS cars would free up bi-level coaches for other lines. The more I learn about Amtrak the more I realize I don't know much. :unsure:
> 
> 
> 
> PerRock said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Nippon-Shayro order isn't going to effect the Empire Builder at all. The cars they're building will primarily replace the Horizon cars used on the corridor trains out of Chicago.
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

The only Midwest corridor train that routinely use Superliners is the Pere Marquette. So that would free up three Superliners.


----------



## GaSteve

PVD said:


> Lansing is the Michigan capitol and is on the list.


I never said that geography was my strong suite. Thanks !


----------



## DSS&A

Hi, I was thinking about the next car orders. Would a replacement for the lounge cars have the same or a similar window arrangement as the Viewliner 2 dining cars?


----------



## GaSteve

DSS&A said:


> Hi, I was thinking about the next car orders. Would a replacement for the lounge cars have the same or a similar window arrangement as the Viewliner 2 dining cars?


I'm not aware of any replacement lounge cars.


----------



## DSS&A

This car order and it's bid option, do not have lounge cars in it. Amtraks fleet plan calls for more single level cars to replace the high mileage Amfleet-2 leg rest coaches. Replacement lounges and other cars might also be a part of the car order. The Superliner-1 cars are also in need of replacement.


----------



## A Voice

GaSteve said:


> DSS&A said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, I was thinking about the next car orders. Would a replacement for the lounge cars have the same or a similar window arrangement as the Viewliner 2 dining cars?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not aware of any replacement lounge cars.
Click to expand...

_Supposedly_ the Amfleet II cars - coaches and lounge cars - are next up for replacement, but no order or even RFP yet exists. It could be a Viewliner, or it could be a different design.


----------



## PVD

Without digging terribly deeply into the process, any forth coming order for single level cars (sleeper excepted) is likely to incorporate a standard shell, larger windows, package units for A/C at each end of the roof for lift out exchange, and more easily re-configurable seating and overhead bin/consoles. Eases changeover from LD to BC to corridor use should the need arise. Figure on an attempt to make food service easier to load in and close out. Perhaps an enhanced window line at one end to provide a more "lounge like" experience on the food service cars (there are probably enough to make worthwhile since food service cars are around 20% of the amfleet cars) Does it pay to build 3/4 with 2 vestibules and auto doors and 1/4 with one vestibule and manual doors for LD? Probably not, but who knows.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Fleet one (Ryan and AmtrakBlue)! On the alert! If everything holds, you know where to find them on Wednesday.

Fleet two! (PennyK)! If everything holds, you know where to find them on Thursday!

Do your thing!


----------



## PVD

I'll be driving over the 59th street bridge Weds morning on my way to the CUNY Solar Summit. Should I do a SSYD drive by (if time and traffic permit) ?


----------



## Ryan

Only if it isn't raining this time!


----------



## PVD

I've got to be in early, hopefully the people I'm driving in are on time for pickup so I'm not in hurry mode. (They show up late, then badger me to hurry up)


----------



## Bob Dylan

Thirdrail's heads up came True when 2 VLII Diners,were picked up in Elmira and are headed South to Florida.

1)Baton Rouge #68004 and 2)Boston #68005


----------



## Jacob Goes By Jack

What tracks/trains are used to bring them from Elmira to New York City for the trip south?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

deadhead locomotives and amfleet via CPrail and NS southern tier.


----------



## Jacob Goes By Jack

I mean generally via what cities though? Am I remembering right that they go to Albany, and then down the Empire corridor?

(I don't know where all the freight rail divisions are that you mentioned.) And at what time roughly?

The reason I'm asking is that I live very close to the Empire corridor, so if they go that way at the right time I could conceivably get a picture... ^^


----------



## RickIronton

We'll be traveling in a sleeper on Oct 14, 2017 on the Silver Meteor out of New York Penn to Orlando.

What are the chances that we'll have a new sleeper and/or a diner in our consist?


----------



## jis

RickIronton said:


> We'll be traveling in a sleeper on Oct 14, 2017 on the Silver Meteor out of New York Penn to Orlando.
> 
> What are the chances that we'll have a new sleeper and/or a diner in our consist?


New Diner almost 100%. New Sleeper, more or less close to 0%.


----------



## GaSteve

jis said:


> RickIronton said:
> 
> 
> 
> We'll be traveling in a sleeper on Oct 14, 2017 on the Silver Meteor out of New York Penn to Orlando.
> 
> What are the chances that we'll have a new sleeper and/or a diner in our consist?
> 
> 
> 
> New Diner almost 100%. New Sleeper, more or less close to 0%.
Click to expand...

Agreed


----------



## RickIronton

Does anyone have a report about traveling in a new Viewliner sleeper and/or diner?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

RickIronton said:


> Does anyone have a report about traveling in a new Viewliner sleeper and/or diner?


No new Viewliner sleepers have been released yet. Although I have hot yet travelled in one, I have heard primarily positive reviews about the new diners.


----------



## GaSteve

RickIronton said:


> Does anyone have a report about traveling in a new Viewliner sleeper and/or diner?


There would be no report on a sleeper since they are not in service. My only experience in a diner is that they ride much better than the heritage diner and certainly have a more airy feeling from the higher ceiling and upper level windows.


----------



## pennyk

RickIronton said:


> Does anyone have a report about traveling in a new Viewliner sleeper and/or diner?


I have traveled on 2 different trains (Silver Meteors) with new diners. The diners are very nice and very comfortable.


----------



## stappend

Jacob Goes By Jack said:


> I mean generally via what cities though? Am I remembering right that they go to Albany, and then down the Empire corridor?
> 
> (I don't know where all the freight rail divisions are that you mentioned.) And at what time roughly?
> 
> The reason I'm asking is that I live very close to the Empire corridor, so if they go that way at the right time I could conceivably get a picture... ^^


If the schedule was kept they passed from Albany to NYP yesterday and left New York today via the Meteor to Miami.


----------



## Jacob Goes By Jack

Ah, so I missed em yesterday. Too bad... I live about a 15 minute walk from what would have been an ideal photo spot in upper Manhattan. What time of day did they pass through?

In a week I'm moving to Charlotte NC in any case. By coincidence my new place is VERY close (like 2 minute walk) to the line the Crescent runs on, so I should be able to see VL2's then (albeit in the middle of the night...)


----------



## jis

Dutchrailnut said:


> deadhead locomotives and amfleet via CPrail and NS southern tier.


Isn't it mostly NS, now that NS has purchased the Scranton - Bingo - Schenectady segment from CPRail?


----------



## neroden

Should be 100% NS from Schenectady to Elmira now.


----------



## AmtrakBlue




----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Fleet one (Ryan and AmtrakBlue)! On the alert! If everything holds, you know where to find them on Wednesday.
> 
> Fleet two! (PennyK)! If everything holds, you know where to find them on Thursday!
> 
> Do your thing!


AmtrakBlue reporting in, Sir! Mission accomplished.


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

AmtrakBlue said:


> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1498081425.101995.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByAmtrak Forum1498081440.435039.jpg


GREAT PICS! Now they need to be able to keep them this clean and shiny as they go into revenue service.


----------



## mgl1978

Spotting Viewliner 2 Cars 6/21/2017

#19


----------



## tommylicious

Nice! Put 'em on the LSL already!


----------



## TommyBNSF

Neat to see 8400 and the VL2 Diner in the same consist.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> AmtrakBlue reporting in, Sir! Mission accomplished.


----------



## Jacob Goes By Jack

Does anyone know if these two are in revenue service now, or still being worked on in Hialeah?


----------



## KnightRail

Jacob Goes By Jack said:


> Does anyone know if these two are in revenue service now, or still being worked on in Hialeah?


That's a negative on revenue service. Only one on the road this week has been Atlanta.


----------



## A Voice

KnightRail said:


> Jacob Goes By Jack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know if these two are in revenue service now, or still being worked on in Hialeah?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a negative on revenue service. Only one on the road this week has been Atlanta.
Click to expand...

Are Annapolis and Augusta out of service for something?


----------



## KnightRail

"Heat wave" in Annapolis


----------



## AmtrakLKL

68005 went live on 98 today.


----------



## pennyk

AmtrakLKL said:


> 68005 went live on 98 today.


missed it by a day. Darn!


----------



## neroden

OK, so which of these are on the road now? Sounds like Annapolis is being repaired, Albany is being modified, and Baton Rouge hasn't come out of its Amtrak inspection yet.

So are Indianapolis, Augusta, Atlanta, and Boston all rolling? Or are some of them in the shop too?

If they all get fixed, that barely covers the existing decrepit levels of dining car service. I can't wait to see more cars out. At least three more seem to be needed before we get decent breakfasts back on the LSL -- probably more.

Of course I know nobody can really answer this question since nobody outside CAF or the very high levels of Amtrak will know until the last minute. But geez, when can we expect more?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

neroden said:


> OK, so which of these are on the road now? Sounds like Annapolis is being repaired, Albany is being modified, and Baton Rouge hasn't come out of its Amtrak inspection yet.
> 
> So are Indianapolis, Augusta, Atlanta, and Boston all rolling? Or are some of them in the shop too?
> 
> If they all get fixed, that barely covers the existing decrepit levels of dining car service. I can't wait to see more cars out. At least three more seem to be needed before we get decent breakfasts back on the LSL -- probably more.
> 
> Of course I know nobody can really answer this question since nobody outside CAF or the very high levels of Amtrak will know until the last minute. But geez, when can we expect more?


I believe Augusta is not in service at this time; I am not informed as to why. Theoretically, if even these 7 cars could be active at the present they could occupy all the active consists of the SM and Crescent. Obviously, there would still need to be usable Heritage diners because of maintenance and the need for protect cars.


----------



## neroden

Thank you. Geez, three cars operating, four in the shop, no timeline for more deliveries... ugh.


----------



## DennisInGeorgia

Just so long as there's a VL diner on 20 nb from ATL Aug 9 AND we can board before the diner is closed, we can handle anything else


----------



## A Voice

DennisInGeorgia said:


> Just so long as there's a VL diner on 20 nb from ATL Aug 9 AND we can board before the diner is closed, we can handle anything else


While it's _possible_ you'll have a Viewliner dining car, it is more likely you will still have a Heritage diner. Even if all the currently delivered cars are in service by then, there aren't enough yet to cover all sets of both the _Crescent_ and _Silver Meteor_.


----------



## west point

FYI. The May MPR showed 3 Heritage diners were worked on at Beech and released the past few months including May and one additional being worked on at New Orleans. The MPR did not specify what work was done at BEE ?


----------



## Thirdrail7

68004 is clear and free to navigate.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Have they worked out a fix for the air conditioning yet? Any word if Annapolis and Augusta are back in service yet?

Nick


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

I have seen all three of the Crescent consists in Atlanta over the past three days and none of them had a Viewliner diner. Now with Baton Rouge operating there are 4 active Viewliner diners, which is enough to equip all the active consists of the SM.


----------



## dlagrua

After following this thread since it started, I have arrived at the conclusion that the CAF Viewliner order will never be completed. We will probably see a car come out of production now and then but since CAF underbid the contract, they lose money with each delivery. If you disagree; let me know when the first sleepers are delivered , put in use and I'll buy you a drink.


----------



## KnightRail

^you are going to be buying a lot of drinks. That would be a much safer bet on the Nippon Sharyo contract which at this point is fantasy.


----------



## Lonestar648

Could CAF be lobbing Congress to pressure for the contract cancellation? That would make the Anti Amtrak crowd happy because it puts Amtrak in an equipment bind.


----------



## jis

The contract is not with Congress. So nominally Congress should have nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact there was no Congressional appropriation in support of this contract to start with either.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

KnightRail said:


> ^you are going to be buying a lot of drinks. That would be a much safer bet on the Nippon Sharyo contract which at this point is fantasy.


So name a date and place a bet and we'll see who wins.


----------



## A Voice

dlagrua said:


> After following this thread since it started, I have arrived at the conclusion that the CAF Viewliner order will never be completed. We will probably see a car come out of production now and then but since CAF underbid the contract, they lose money with each delivery. If you disagree; let me know when the first sleepers are delivered , put in use and I'll buy you a drink.


I'll have a large Sweet Tea please.

No matter how slow the delivery, the last Viewliner car will _eventually _be delivered. As KnightRail alluded to, CAF is no Nippon-Sharyo. From reports, Amtrak is relatively satisfied with the Viewliner order aside from the glacial pace of completion.


----------



## sitzplatz17

And I'll take a Heady Topper beer please. 

I agree with the others that the order will be completed. It may not be CAFs #1 priority which is why they're plodding along, but it's more in their interest to finish it eventually rather than just give up.


----------



## Ryan

LOL. I'm in on that one too.

Dennis in a year:


----------



## neroden

So, it's been a leisurely month since the last two came out. Aren't we about due for another one? Or two?

And how about the cars mouldering in the shop: 68000, 68001, 68003? One would hope that a month would be long enough to address the problems on at least *one* of them.

At this rate the first sleeper will come out in 2019.


----------



## A Voice

neroden said:


> So, it's been a leisurely month since the last two came out. Aren't we about due for another one? Or two?
> 
> And how about the cars mouldering in the shop: 68000, 68001, 68003? One would hope that a month would be long enough to address the problems on at least *one* of them.
> 
> At this rate the first sleeper will come out in 2019.


Diner 68000, Albany, is still at CAF, with various rumors it will likely be the last to be delivered (for specified modifications).

We don't really have any basis to believe - or discount - that this "two every 30 days or so" pattern will remain. We don't know what (if anything) is happening behind the scenes with the sleepers and baggage-dorms. The latter might well be ready in the next few months as was previously announced, we just don't know.


----------



## Acela150

One thing to remember is that quite a few baggage cars came out at once. Granted it's a baggage car, but still.


----------



## me_little_me

At the speeds Amtrak long distance trains run on freight tracks, there is no rush. Everything moves at glacier pace.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> And how about the cars mouldering in the shop: 68000, 68001, 68003? One would hope that a month would be long enough to address the problems on at least *one* of them.


They've picked up company. h34r: :help:


----------



## west point

It may be that we can believe the 2 per month delivery of diners. Amtrak is anticipating no deliveries of Bag Dorms or Sleepers before February 2018. Amtrak has a petition to the FRA stating that they will delivered sometime after then. The waiver is to allow deliveries after FEB with out having the propulsion door open interlock int installed. Can imagine that locos are not equipped as well ? 3rd rail ? Cannot get link to show.

.


----------



## dlagrua

With reference to my comment that the CAF Viewliner order never being completed; are not the deliveries over two years late at this point? The contract was supposed to have been completed by early 2015, but as of this month CAF USA Inc has delivered 70 baggage cars and a few diners Nearly 400 defects were identified in the first lot of baggage cars so like Nippon Sharyo they may not be able to meet USA specs to one degree or another. The order called for 70 baggage cars, 25 diners, 10 baggage-dormitory cars and 25 sleepers. I could certainly be wrong about CAF walking away from the rest of the order but when they are shipping dollars with each unit it doesn't make good business sense for them to deliver. It makes perfectly good business sense to keep delaying deliveries ( which they are doing) until Amtrak gets fed up and cancels the order which is probably what CAF is hoping will happen. Am I wrong with the facts or with this analogy? If so please explain how.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

dlagrua said:


> With reference to my comment that the CAF Viewliner order never being completed; are not the deliveries over two years late at this point? The contract was supposed to have been completed by early 2015, but as of this month CAF USA Inc has delivered 70 baggage cars and a few diners Nearly 400 defects were identified in the first lot of baggage cars so like Nippon Sharyo they may not be able to meet USA specs to one degree or another. The order called for 70 baggage cars, 25 diners, 10 baggage-dormitory cars and 25 sleepers. I could certainly be wrong about CAF walking away from the rest of the order but when they are shipping dollars with each unit it doesn't make good business sense for them to deliver. It makes perfectly good business sense to *keep delaying deliveries ( which they are doing) *until Amtrak gets fed up and cancels the order which is probably what CAF is hoping will happen. Am I wrong with the facts or with this analogy? If so please explain how.


You make it sound like they're delaying on purpose, rather than because they're having issues (perhaps not enough skilled labor to finish them in a timely fashion). I have no idea why things are delayed, but I don't suspect them of dragging there feet on purpose.


----------



## Maglev

How deeply is CAF committed to completing the order in terms of stock-on-hand? Are there car shells or sleeper room modules awaiting assembly?


----------



## A Voice

dlagrua said:


> With reference to my comment that the CAF Viewliner order never being completed; are not the deliveries over two years late at this point?


How late were the original Superliners (from Pullman Standard) back in the 70's?


----------



## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> Nearly 400 defects were identified in the first lot of baggage cars


Don't get hung up on the number of defects. We deliver warships with thousands of trial cards written, some covering multiple occurrences of the same defect. These things get fixed, which is why they spend time between delivery and revenue service.



dlagrua said:


> so like Nippon Sharyo they may not be able to meet USA specs to one degree or another.


If they didn't meet specs, none would have been delivered. The fact that there are cars in revenue service (and have been for quite some time) indicates that you're mistaken.



dlagrua said:


> I could certainly be wrong about CAF walking away from the rest of the order


You are.



dlagrua said:


> but when they are shipping dollars with each unit it doesn't make good business sense for them to deliver.


Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence.



dlagrua said:


> It makes perfectly good business sense to keep delaying deliveries ( which they are doing) until Amtrak gets fed up and cancels the order which is probably what CAF is hoping will happen. Am I wrong with the facts or with this analogy? If so please explain how.


As usual, you take some wildly wrong "facts", then use them to jump to a logically unsupportable conclusion. Bonus points for consistency, though.


----------



## KnightRail

Maybe another couple diners next month and maybe the 25th diner by a year from next month. It's not worth throwing out dates for bag-dorms or sleepers till all diners are served. Good things come to those who wait...eventually. Glacial progress is being made.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Dare I ask, how many VD's (maybe not the best abbreviation) are actually in service and operating?

Nick


----------



## Ziv

I think this was current as of last week:

8400 Indianapolis Operational Not a regular VLII though. I think it was a Budd prototype built back in the late 80's.

68000 Albany Being modified, not operational

68001 Annapolis Being repaired

68002 Atlanta Operating

68003 Augusta Inoperative, no reason given in last post I read

68004 Baton Rouge Operating as of 7/12

68005 Boston Operating

68006 Charleston Not delivered

68007 Columbia Not delivered

68008 Columbus Not delivered

68009 Concord Not delivered

68010 Dover Not delivered.

Sorry for any errors. So 4 diners if you include the 8400.



Ngotwalt said:


> Dare I ask, how many VD's (maybe not the best abbreviation) are actually in service and operating?
> Nick


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Dlagura, are you aware that foot dragging costs CAF a lot more money then the rapid completion and removal of this order from their Accounts Payable would do?

They are running an entire factory here, have tons of in process inventory, and all of that costs them money. Just because a project has become unprofitable does not mean that completion is not the most financially sensible outcome.


----------



## PVD

Of course. When you take into consideration that a major portion of building a railcar is assembling parts sourced from other vendors, there may be very high costs in canceling or delaying those orders. What exactly would Railplan do with a bunch of sleeper room modules if they have already been built? What payment terms apply to different components? There are probably many millions in obligations CAF would be stuck with.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> And how about the cars mouldering in the shop: 68000, 68001, 68003? One would hope that a month would be long enough to address the problems on at least *one* of them.
> 
> 
> 
> They've picked up company. h34r: :help:
Click to expand...

Oh dear. If it's the A/C *again*, we may not see anything for a month or more, then. If it's something else, that's even worse.

I hope the liquidated damages provisions in the contract were substantial.


----------



## west point

About AC modules. A complete spare unit will be easier to inventory. Spare units allow the trouble shooting to be much quicker. Either it can reset or not and if not replace the whole unit. Once all the V-2s are delivered then spare AC units can be kept at MIA, Sunnyside, New Orleans, CHI. If they can be swapped out within 1 - 2 hours ( doubtful ) then maybe spare(s) at WASH, ATL and Florence ?

Then when V-1 sleepers are going through major overhaul they could be retrofitted?. That would give a total of 110 Viewliners with same AC. That is if the V-2 diners do not have to have a higher capacity AC ? Questions for 3rd rail.

EDIT excuse this post on this thread. Meant to have it on Viewliner thread but for some reason could not paste it. Unable to paste anything on the site only. What am I doing wrong?.


----------



## dlagrua

Ryan said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly 400 defects were identified in the first lot of baggage cars
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get hung up on the number of defects. We deliver warships with thousands of trial cards written, some covering multiple occurrences of the same defect. These things get fixed, which is why they spend time between delivery and revenue service.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> so like Nippon Sharyo they may not be able to meet USA specs to one degree or another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If they didn't meet specs, none would have been delivered. The fact that there are cars in revenue service (and have been for quite some time) indicates that you're mistaken.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could certainly be wrong about CAF walking away from the rest of the order
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> but when they are shipping dollars with each unit it doesn't make good business sense for them to deliver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> It makes perfectly good business sense to keep delaying deliveries ( which they are doing) until Amtrak gets fed up and cancels the order which is probably what CAF is hoping will happen. Am I wrong with the facts or with this analogy? If so please explain how.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As usual, you take some wildly wrong "facts", then use them to jump to a logically unsupportable conclusion. Bonus points for consistency, though.
Click to expand...

You think that CAF is not losing money? Not according to what they have said. My comments are based upon logic acquired from many years in the business world. That logic says that when you lose money with every shipment ( as CAF claims) you seek to get out of the contract. That's just good business sense and a tactic often used in the corporate world. Corporations are there to make money and show a profit, not lose money. The Amtrak/CAF contract like the Nippon Sharyo contact is a bad deal and IMO it will go nowhere. Some industry experts sited in Trains Magazine seem to agree. .


----------



## PVD

That logic is certainly not an absolute. Sometimes it is true, very often it isn't. If I have already committed to the purchase of the components to manufacture something, and I am obligated to pay for them, I might lose far more terminating a sale. Instead of losing x per unit, I might lose far more. Also, depending on how my fixed costs, like factory and equipment costs are allocated, it could make other contracts less profitable by shifting added costs onto them. Every situation needs to be evaluated independently.


----------



## Acela150

dlagrua said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly 400 defects were identified in the first lot of baggage cars
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get hung up on the number of defects. We deliver warships with thousands of trial cards written, some covering multiple occurrences of the same defect. These things get fixed, which is why they spend time between delivery and revenue service.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> so like Nippon Sharyo they may not be able to meet USA specs to one degree or another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If they didn't meet specs, none would have been delivered. The fact that there are cars in revenue service (and have been for quite some time) indicates that you're mistaken.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could certainly be wrong about CAF walking away from the rest of the order
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> but when they are shipping dollars with each unit it doesn't make good business sense for them to deliver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Objection: Assumes facts not in evidence.
> 
> 
> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> It makes perfectly good business sense to keep delaying deliveries ( which they are doing) until Amtrak gets fed up and cancels the order which is probably what CAF is hoping will happen. Am I wrong with the facts or with this analogy? If so please explain how.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As usual, you take some wildly wrong "facts", then use them to jump to a logically unsupportable conclusion. Bonus points for consistency, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think that CAF is not losing money? Not according to what they have said. My comments are based upon logic acquired from many years in the business world. That logic says that when you lose money with every shipment ( as CAF claims) you seek to get out of the contract. That's just good business sense and a tactic often used in the corporate world. Corporations are there to make money and show a profit, not lose money. The Amtrak/CAF contract like the Nippon Sharyo contact is a bad deal and IMO it will go nowhere. Some industry experts sited in Trains Magazine seem to agree. .
Click to expand...

Dennis, You're not going to win this one at all.

When the original Viewliner I contract went out I believe the order called for something like 100 sleepers. Someone else can confirm that for me. That order was dropped to something like half of it cause Amtrak wasn't able to pay the full contract price. That is again if I'm correct on that.

At this time Amtrak is in desperate need of new Diners. The heritage fleet is limping along, and I mean limping. Parts have to be custom fabricated for them these days. On top of that with a renewed need for sleepers and Crew Dorms on trains it justifies the entire orders fulfillment. Hyundai Rotem delivered Every single car to Septa years behind schedule, and the same with the order that the MBTA placed with them. The CAF contract is already being fulfilled unlike the NS contract which hasn't even seen a car being built. Which makes it more successful then the NS issue.


----------



## west point

Amtrak is expecting the Bag - Dorms and Sleepers to be delivered sometime after Feb 5, 2018. Amtrak petitioned the FRA to not require the FRA requirement of the propulsion - door open interlocks effective Feb 5, 2018.


----------



## Ryan

dlagrua said:


> You think that CAF is not losing money? Not according to what they have said.


 Where did I say they weren’t losing money? If they are, delay may not (likely not) be the cheapest way out of the problem. It’s more likely cheaper to do the exact opposite of what your “logic” dictates and complete the order as quickly as possible to stop the bleeding as soon as they can.



dlagrua said:


> My comments are based upon logic acquired from many years in the business world. That logic says that when you lose money with every shipment ( as CAF claims) you seek to get out of the contract.


 And mine are based on many years of experience as well, including working with a shipbuilder for the last two years that probably isn’t making money on ships at this point. Profitability is a few hulls in the future by most estimates, so your logic is completely incorrect. If you have enough insight into CAF finances to demonstrate that your “logic” loses then the least amount of work, then back the claim up with some evidence.



dlagrua said:


> That's just good business sense and a tactic often used in the corporate world. Corporations are there to make money and show a profit, not lose money.


Really? I wasn’t previously aware of that. Thanks for the valuable lesson in the completely obvious. 


dlagrua said:


> The Amtrak/CAF contract like the Nippon Sharyo contact is a bad deal and IMO it will go nowhere. Some industry experts sited in Trains Magazine seem to agree. .


 I read it on the internet, so it must be true.


----------



## dlagrua

I will make one last post to support my position and then not comment further. Here is the Amtrak report on the CAF situation. Moving forward lets discuss it point by point.

https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/CAF%20Final%20Report%2020160201.pdf

Its all laid out very logically. CAF claims to be losing $41 million on this project. They have already burned through about 60% of the funding If anyone here believes CAF is making money on this order and that this is false info, please produce evidence. If it is true ( which I believe that it is) why would CAF wish to continue with a project that is losing money? This is the one question that some forum members avoid and do not wish to answer.


----------



## ehbowen

Because it's been adequately answered by others. They wish to continue because they could/would lose MORE money if they up and quit, due to cancellation penalties and non-performance of the contract.


----------



## Ryan

Precisely. Losing $41M to complete the contract is probably better than losing significantly more than that if they don’t (and don’t see another dime of revenue to offset the money they’ve already sent out the door.

Your characterization of both my argument and my willingness to answer your questions is blankly false. Knock it off.


----------



## jis

dlagrua said:


> I will make one last post to support my position and then not comment further. Here is the Amtrak report on the CAF situation. Moving forward lets discuss it point by point.
> 
> https://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/CAF%20Final%20Report%2020160201.pdf
> 
> Its all laid out very logically. CAF claims to be losing $41 million on this project. They have already burned through about 60% of the funding If anyone here believes CAF is making money on this order and that this is false info, please produce evidence. If it is true ( which I believe that it is) why would CAF wish to continue with a project that is losing money? This is the one question that some forum members avoid and do not wish to answer.


You know? you really have ceased to make any sense anymore in this thread. So you might want to quit while you are ahead 

If CAF does not deliver it will lose all the revenue and will not recoup any of the money that is already committed. What can we do to get this through your thick skull?


----------



## PVD

Defaulting would also have a profound effect on their ability to secure future work. A major default can knock you out as "lowest responsible bidder" regardless of pricing.


----------



## Lonestar648

CAF may be losing money, but canceling a contract because they are loosing money could bring bad PR they don't want for future contracts. They don't want a reputation that they quit if they find they are loosing money. That would get CAF disqualified in the bidding process. So CAF may be advertising they are loosing money, but by hanging in they can tell future customers, we don't quit.


----------



## west point

Finally got this web site to accept copy and paste. Here is Amtrak's petition to waive the propulsion open door interlock. States delivery of bag dorms and sleepers sometime after Feb 5 2018.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/14/2017-14809/petition-for-waiver-of-compliancehttps://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/14/2017-14809/petition-for-waiver-of-compliance


----------



## Ngotwalt

According to other forums, the waiver is needed because the cars will operate with older equipment not equipped with this door system, and the regulation applies to entire trains.

Nick


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Looking at the referenced Code, I see that (b) says "that are ordered on or after April 5, 2016, or placed in service for the first time on or after February 5, 2018".

I guess I am not a legal expert on the meaning of "or" because I would think that these requirements would not be applicable to the VLII cars since they were ordered before April 5, 2016.


----------



## Ryan

The requirement is invoked if either condition is satisfied (that's what "or" means).

This means that cars placed into service after 5 Feb 2018 will be subject to the requirement (which is why the waiver is needed).

If the "or" were an "and", then both conditions would need to be satisfied to invoke the requirement. Then your logic would hold that the order date for the cars would exempt them from the requirement.

Easy way to test "or" is to strike it and one of the clauses:

"All manual and powered exterior side door systems in passenger cars, and connected door safety systems in locomotives used in passenger service, that are ordered on or after April 5, 2016 shall be:" We're cool! Cars were ordered before that date.

"All manual and powered exterior side door systems in passenger cars, and connected door safety systems in locomotives used in passenger service, that are placed in service for the first time on or after February 5, 2018 shall be:" Now we're not, unless a miracle occurs.


----------



## willem

Good explanation, *Ryan*!


----------



## Thirdrail7

dlagrua said:


> . It makes perfectly good business sense to keep delaying deliveries ( which they are doing) until Amtrak gets fed up and cancels the order which is probably what CAF is hoping will happen. Am I wrong with the facts or with this analogy? If so please explain how.


Not to pick on you but I just don't see Amtrak canceling the order. It is entirely too late in the process for them to just say forget it and let's start again.

In any event, the end of the month should yield:







If everything stays on course: Blue and Ryan=(2), PennyK=(3)


----------



## DSS&A

Hi Thirdrail7,

Thanks for all of your updates which are greatly appreciated!!! With two more cars at the end of this month, I am encouraged that CAF has increased the production rate to two a month.


----------



## Lonestar648

The production rate from CAF maybe agonizingly slow, but each one or each two released to Amtrak is a step forward to improving the single level trains, even if very slow. I wish the order was being completed quickly, or already complete, but that is not to be. Thanks for the updates.


----------



## StriderGDM

This is good news. This should mean within 2-4 months the LSL finally gets diners back! Woohoo!


----------



## west point

StriderGDM said:


> This is good news. This should mean within 2-4 months the LSL finally gets diners back! Woohoo!


That will be the 64 dollar question for what will happen ? LSL will need 3 diners. It may be that LSL may get Heritage diners first so the Crescent with V-2 diners will not be speed limited on its portion of the NEC ? Since CHI already has some spare Heritage bag parts they may have H-diner parts as well. It gets complicated ? Also NOL would not need spare Heritage diner parts that could go to where Heritage diners are operated ? Not saying that will happen but who knows ? 3rd rail ? If the 3 V-2s not presently in service finally get fixed then these speculations could happen faster ?

Then again what about the Star ? Speculation that next step would be to put V-2 diners on LSL and Heritage diners finally on Star leaving Heritage to run out their days on Star ? Just wait and see ? ?


----------



## GaSteve

west point said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is good news. This should mean within 2-4 months the LSL finally gets diners back! Woohoo!
> 
> 
> 
> That will be the 64 dollar question for what will happen ? LSL will need 3 diners. It may be that LSL may get Heritage diners first so the Crescent with V-2 diners will not be speed limited on its portion of the NEC ? Since CHI already has some spare Heritage bag parts they may have H-diner parts as well. It gets complicated ? Also NOL would not need spare Heritage diner parts that could go to where Heritage diners are operated ? Not saying that will happen but who knows ? 3rd rail ? If the 3 V-2s not presently in service finally get fixed then these speculations could happen faster ?
> 
> Then again what about the Star ? Speculation that next step would be to put V-2 diners on LSL and Heritage diners finally on Star leaving Heritage to run out their days on Star ? Just wait and see ? ?
Click to expand...

I have never seen a protect diner in NOL.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is good news. This should mean within 2-4 months the LSL finally gets diners back! Woohoo!
> 
> 
> 
> That will be the 64 dollar question for what will happen ? LSL will need 3 diners. It may be that LSL may get Heritage diners first so the Crescent with V-2 diners will not be speed limited on its portion of the NEC ? Since CHI already has some spare Heritage bag parts they may have H-diner parts as well. It gets complicated ? Also NOL would not need spare Heritage diner parts that could go to where Heritage diners are operated ? Not saying that will happen but who knows ? 3rd rail ? If the 3 V-2s not presently in service finally get fixed then these speculations could happen faster ?
> Then again what about the Star ? Speculation that next step would be to put V-2 diners on LSL and Heritage diners finally on Star leaving Heritage to run out their days on Star ? Just wait and see ? ?
Click to expand...

All LD trains will continue to be speed limited on the NEC unless the V-I Sleepers somehow get modified trucks/wheel profiles to be cleared and certified for 125mph. In any case that 15mph speed difference does not matter a heck of a lot in a schedule of a day or more through the CSX and NS wilderness.


----------



## KnightRail

Albany - Elmira

Annapolis - Northward with Boston

Atlanta - Hialeah (in the bullpen)

Augusta - Southward

Baton Rouge - Hialeah

Boston - Northward with Annapolis

Charleston - See a few posts prior...

Columbia - ...Look for the signs.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

I read postings on another website that the the two reported new diners left CAF this morning which Thirdrail7 had previously announced would happen this week.


----------



## twropr

Another forum confirms that 68006 Charleston and 68007 Columbia were moving Tuesday from Elmira to Albany-Rensseler.

Andy


----------



## Ziv

I wonder if they can get the "delivered but not operating" diners on line this month...

And if CAF can deliver 2 diners a month for the rest of the year.

I can't imagine that the sleepers are that much more difficult to build than than the diners. Haven't most of the problems been with welding and AC? Both of which will be similar in the sleepers, or so I would guess. Even if CAF delivers slowly, it might be worth it to tack another 10-20 sleepers on the order.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> If everything stays on course: Blue and Ryan=(2), PennyK=(3)


----------



## StriderGDM

Ziv said:


> I wonder if they can get the "delivered but not operating" diners on line this month...
> 
> And if CAF can deliver 2 diners a month for the rest of the year.
> 
> I can't imagine that the sleepers are that much more difficult to build than than the diners. Haven't most of the problems been with welding and AC? Both of which will be similar in the sleepers, or so I would guess. Even if CAF delivers slowly, it might be worth it to tack another 10-20 sleepers on the order.


Sure, as soon as Amtrak can come up with the money. :-/

There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.

I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?

How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).

And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?

Unless there's a plan to use it, not necessarily worth buying it.

Heck, as it is, 25 diners will be too much.


----------



## Ziv

Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.


----------



## A Voice

StriderGDM said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if they can get the "delivered but not operating" diners on line this month...
> 
> And if CAF can deliver 2 diners a month for the rest of the year.
> 
> I can't imagine that the sleepers are that much more difficult to build than than the diners. Haven't most of the problems been with welding and AC? Both of which will be similar in the sleepers, or so I would guess. Even if CAF delivers slowly, it might be worth it to tack another 10-20 sleepers on the order.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, as soon as Amtrak can come up with the money. :-/
> 
> There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.
> 
> I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?
> 
> How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).
> 
> And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?
> 
> Unless there's a plan to use it, not necessarily worth buying it.
> 
> Heck, as it is, 25 diners will be too much.
Click to expand...

Amtrak is chronically short of equipment, with very little or no relief in sight; I don't think finding a use for thirty more cars would exactly be the problem.

Assuming all eastern overnight long-distance trains carry a dining car, 25 Viewliner II diners is about the right number.



Ziv said:


> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.


For everyone who suggests this, where do you propose getting the singe-level coaches to equip the _Capitol Limited_?


----------



## George K

Ziv said:


> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.


Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.


----------



## StriderGDM

A Voice said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if they can get the "delivered but not operating" diners on line this month...
> 
> And if CAF can deliver 2 diners a month for the rest of the year.
> 
> I can't imagine that the sleepers are that much more difficult to build than than the diners. Haven't most of the problems been with welding and AC? Both of which will be similar in the sleepers, or so I would guess. Even if CAF delivers slowly, it might be worth it to tack another 10-20 sleepers on the order.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, as soon as Amtrak can come up with the money. :-/
> 
> There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.
> 
> I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?
> 
> How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).
> 
> And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?
> 
> Unless there's a plan to use it, not necessarily worth buying it.
> 
> Heck, as it is, 25 diners will be too much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak is chronically short of equipment, with very little or no relief in sight; I don't think finding a use for thirty more cars would exactly be the problem.
> 
> Assuming all eastern overnight long-distance trains carry a dining car, 25 Viewliner II diners is about the right number.
Click to expand...

Most of the equipment Amtrak probably needs are coaches.

As for diners, figure 4 for Silver Meteor, 4 for Crescent, 3 for Lake Shore Limited. That's 12.

If you add in 4 more for a returned Silver Star, you're up to 16.

Even if you assume 3-4 for spares (which is lousy utilization) that's 20.

You still have 5 left over.


----------



## Ziv

At 2 cars a month that would only be 24 cars a year. If Amtrak can't find approximately $72Mn a year to build up their fleet of their most profitable cars, they aren't trying hard enough.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If everything stays on course: Blue and Ryan=(2), PennyK=(3)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tumblr_m1ey0mHbFn1qcmwfbo1_500.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> a1OSS.gif
Click to expand...

Looks like it will up to Ryan & Penny. I think my location will be a washout.


----------



## A Voice

StriderGDM said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if they can get the "delivered but not operating" diners on line this month...
> 
> And if CAF can deliver 2 diners a month for the rest of the year.
> 
> I can't imagine that the sleepers are that much more difficult to build than than the diners. Haven't most of the problems been with welding and AC? Both of which will be similar in the sleepers, or so I would guess. Even if CAF delivers slowly, it might be worth it to tack another 10-20 sleepers on the order.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, as soon as Amtrak can come up with the money. :-/
> 
> There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.
> 
> I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?
> 
> How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).
> 
> And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?
> 
> Unless there's a plan to use it, not necessarily worth buying it.
> 
> Heck, as it is, 25 diners will be too much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amtrak is chronically short of equipment, with very little or no relief in sight; I don't think finding a use for thirty more cars would exactly be the problem.
> 
> Assuming all eastern overnight long-distance trains carry a dining car, 25 Viewliner II diners is about the right number.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of the equipment Amtrak probably needs are coaches.
> 
> As for diners, figure 4 for Silver Meteor, 4 for Crescent, 3 for Lake Shore Limited. That's 12.
> 
> If you add in 4 more for a returned Silver Star, you're up to 16.
> 
> Even if you assume 3-4 for spares (which is lousy utilization) that's 20.
> 
> You still have 5 left over.
Click to expand...

The _Cardinal. _

_If_ it carried a diner, and _if_ it were daily, that represents three more cars. And yes, that's a lot of _if_'s.


----------



## Ryan

So far, we're looking OK....


----------



## Lonestar648

Changing the CL over to single level presents issues and opportunities. As mentioned, each VL sleeper is less 3 Bedrooms, 1 Roomette, and 1 Family Room. Also, the train looses a SSL, and there is no replacement on single level. Instead of three coaches, you need to have four.

This would open the possibility to drop off the rear in Pittsburgh through Coach(s) and Sleeper(s) to Philadelphia and NYP. The Pennsylvanian could have, if available a diner with the additional cars.

All is academic with out increased single level inventory, especially coaches, and speeding up VL production.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Ryan said:


> So far, we're looking OK....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Screen Shot 2017-08-02 at 5.23.22 PM.png


Is this a Viewliner II distribution map?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Rain left my area in time for me to catch it. Will try to load my video when I have WiFi.

I was concerned that where I go to see the trains might be inaccessible due to flooding, but it wasn't.


----------



## railiner

Ziv said:


> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.


Good idea!Maybe do the same with the Autotrain...Keep the Superliner's on the western trains....


----------



## Ziv

A Voice said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> For everyone who suggests this, where do you propose getting the singe-level coaches to equip the _Capitol Limited_?
Click to expand...

By finding the money to buy more new VL'ers when the current order is completed. With a total budget in excess of $5Bn, surely they can find a way to fork over $72Mn to buy 24 more VL'ers?

Yeah, I am an overly optimistic newbie... LOL!

After I mentioned the idea a couple hours ago I realized that I didn't even know if the Capital Limited would be able to use the existing platforms due to the increased length of a VL'er train of a similar capacity to a SL'er train.

I realize that there is a lot of info about Amtrak that I don't know. So I am aware that my knowledge base is limited, but the stuff that I don't know that I don't know is truly immense. ;-)


----------



## PVD

Had the Midwest bi-levels shown up, we would have plenty of Horizons available to rebuild for single level LD use. They didn't, and at this point, regardless of sleeper or diner availability, single level LD coaches are probably not available to convert CL or CONO, the trains most often talked about. Auto Train is a non starter, if fully sold, the added number of cars required to service the same passenger count would exceed the limit for number of cars allowed on that service. Plus, there is no suitable single level lounge. Remember, it's a discussion group, we all learn from each other at some point.


----------



## west point

"IF" more single level CAF coaches were ordered it would be 2-1/2 to 3 years to even start deliveries. The situation is cratering with demand up against supply now that is especially sleepers. Additional sleepers are up to same constraints. Yes it would be great if Amtrak will exercise its options for 70 additional cars from CAF ------ BUT ? ?.


----------



## Ryan

Meanwhile, in actual Viewliner deliver news, I wait....

The thunder is in the distance and it’s already poured once. 97 can get here anytime...


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Here's one hypothetical way to get coaches to convert the CL to single level equipment. A previous post stated both sets of equipment would need 4 coaches The addition of new diners to the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star and Cardinal will free up 9 cafe-lounge cars which could be then converted to long distance coaches. Depending on a negotiation of penalties on the CAF contract, Amtrak could get additional rolling stock complete except for the interiors and finish them out themselves for "prototype LD coaches". Sleeping car shells could be used. The upper windows could be closed up if not needed for a coach configuration.

For example, a Metra press release this year stated that Nippon Sharyo will be completing 7 bilevel coaches for Metra as a part of a settlement on equipment orders at no cost to the railroad.


----------



## StriderGDM

You know, it's the first time I've heard that idea (converting cafe-lounges) to coaches, which makes sense.

So great, now you have enough for one more train. It's a start but...


----------



## PVD

I don't believe you get anything back from SS, it would still carry a lounge car. The LSL and the Card would provide a total of 5 AM 2 Amdinette shells.


----------



## PVD

Actually, I'm pretty certain that around 5 AM-1 cafes were turned into coaches around 5 years ago.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

97_WithTwoNewDiners_ColumbiaCharleston_2017-08-02.mov

Columbia & Charleston


----------



## KnightRail

Ziv said:


> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.


At least one barrier to that happening at the present time is single-level coach availability. There just aren't enough Amfleet II coaches available to make three sets under current conditions. That said, this is not a crazy idea.


----------



## R30A

PVD said:


> Actually, I'm pretty certain that around 5 AM-1 cafes were turned into coaches around 5 years ago.


A lot more than 5!

27!


----------



## DSS&A

PVD said:


> I don't believe you get anything back from SS, it would still carry a lounge car. The LSL and the Card would provide a total of 5 AM 2 Amdinette shells.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Are there other trains where a dinner could replace an Amdinette to improve service on that train and free up more Amdinette cars for conversion to LD coaches?


----------



## PVD

There are some long day trains where a diner option would (at least in my opinion) make the ride much better. Even operating diner lite style would be an upgrade. The problem is, since there is no dedicated lounge car in single level land, most of those trains are using it (am2 food service cars) as the cafe/lounge car, which would probably need to be retained even if a train added a diner.


----------



## Ryan

Bonus ViewDiner!













An all-Viewliner train would look somewhat interesting... Kind of oddly shaped...





Handful more here...

http://photos.stavely.org/Trains/CDiner-Delivery/


----------



## PVD

Nicely done, thank you.


----------



## west point

Not enough AM-2s ? Last two LDSL trips during high travel season had one AM-1 coach in consist. Usually assigned shorter distance riders. Definitely need more LDSL coaches.


----------



## DSS&A

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the great photos. I don't have a telephoto lens that can catch them from the midwest! (too many obstructions in the way too......)


----------



## DSS&A

Another idea for a source of coaches to convert the CL to single level cars with the Viewliner II 70 car option, could be to do what California did and buy Comet, MARC IIa, Constitution Liner or other retired commuter cars and rebuild them as LD coaches to go with the add-on Viewliners. This may not be ideal, but it's more of a "take what you can get reasonably & quickly" solution.


----------



## A Voice

DSS&A said:


> Hi,
> 
> Here's one hypothetical way to get coaches to convert the CL to single level equipment. A previous post stated both sets of equipment would need 4 coaches The addition of new diners to the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star and Cardinal will free up 9 cafe-lounge cars which could be then converted to long distance coaches. Depending on a negotiation of penalties on the CAF contract, Amtrak could get additional rolling stock complete except for the interiors and finish them out themselves for "prototype LD coaches". Sleeping car shells could be used. The upper windows could be closed up if not needed for a coach configuration.
> 
> For example, a Metra press release this year stated that Nippon Sharyo will be completing 7 bilevel coaches for Metra as a part of a settlement on equipment orders at no cost to the railroad.


May I ask where you are hearing of plans to remove the lounge cars from eastern long-distance trains? Unless I've missed a nefarious rumor somewhere, no Amfleet II lounge cars will be freed up by the introduction of the new dining cars.



DSS&A said:


> Another idea for a source of coaches to convert the CL to single level cars with the Viewliner II 70 car option, could be to do what California did and buy Comet, MARC IIa, Constitution Liner or other retired commuter cars and rebuild them as LD coaches to go with the add-on Viewliners. This may not be ideal, but it's more of a "take what you can get reasonably & quickly" solution.


The Amfleet II coaches and lounge cars are next up for replacement anyway. Probably the most expedient and practical means of getting additional cars would be to (somehow) cobble together a budget for such an order (presumably Viewliners), releasing Amfleet II for interim service elsewhere.


----------



## Ziv

It is cool to see two more Viewliner II's on the tracks! Thanks for the photos and the video!

I hope they are in revenue service soon and that we see two more VL II's within the next 30 days!

2 new cars per month would be a nice goal for CAF to hit. Who knows, maybe they are just getting up to speed...


----------



## PVD

The Viewliner design dates back 30 years. There are a number of things you would likely do differently today if you were designing a single level coach or lounge. Whatever we see next is most likely to include easy to swap package a/c in the roof, and more modern lighting, electrical, and electronics. Ease of conversion from corridor to b/c configuration is a slam dunk. There was committee design to be used as a starting point, but that is now a few years old, and will likely be updated in any new orders down the line. Everyone wants to avoid an epic fail like the NS order.


----------



## jis

A Voice said:


> DSS&A said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Here's one hypothetical way to get coaches to convert the CL to single level equipment. A previous post stated both sets of equipment would need 4 coaches The addition of new diners to the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star and Cardinal will free up 9 cafe-lounge cars which could be then converted to long distance coaches. Depending on a negotiation of penalties on the CAF contract, Amtrak could get additional rolling stock complete except for the interiors and finish them out themselves for "prototype LD coaches". Sleeping car shells could be used. The upper windows could be closed up if not needed for a coach configuration.
> 
> For example, a Metra press release this year stated that Nippon Sharyo will be completing 7 bilevel coaches for Metra as a part of a settlement on equipment orders at no cost to the railroad.
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask where you are hearing of plans to remove the lounge cars from eastern long-distance trains? Unless I've missed a nefarious rumor somewhere, no Amfleet II lounge cars will be freed up by the introduction of the new dining cars.
Click to expand...

I think he is talking of the additional Lounge Car that is currently being used as Diner on the LSL. There will be three such released when the LSL gets a Diner.

I don't believe anything will be released when the Card gets Diner. The current Diner will be retained as Lounge on it. And if SS ever gets Diners, similarly, nothing will be released. So his entire premise is wrong. Only three cars will be freed, not 9.


----------



## west point

Have to wonder what if ------- Amtrak transferees the V-2 designs to Siemens. Would that be possible without a new 800,000 # test or could they be built from the present designs ? Would CAF just drag their feet more completing the present order ?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Have to wonder what if ------- Amtrak transferees the V-2 designs to Siemens. Would that be possible without a new 800,000 # test or could they be built from the present designs ? Would CAF just drag their feet more completing the present order ?


I am almost certain that Siemens will not take it unless it comes with gobs of additional money. There is no reason for them to invest in a relatively outdated and small production run line when they have a production line producing perfectly viable equipment that they can sell by the thousands all over the world. Besides why would they wish to adopt a design from the 1980s when they have a 21st century design in production?

Will you get over the 800,000lb thing? Siemens Birghtline cars already meet that and then some. So it really is a non-issue. Trust me on that one.


----------



## PVD

Not passing a test that others have passed usually indicates the problem is not the test standard, it is the person or organization that is failing.


----------



## Lonestar648

I sincerely doubt another company wants to adopt another company's old design then put their name on the product coming out the door. Siemens will want to manufacture their own designs, they have enough well qualified engineers to put together a top notch product, but like said above, at a very high cost,


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

I was thinking of how Amtrak might get enough coaches relatively quickly to convert the CL to single level equipment (along with the 70 car Viewliner 2 option). This would allow the CL Superliner equipment to be reassigned to other trains. I was thinking of the cars on the LSL when they are replaced by new diners.

Yes, the best option would be for Amtrak to secure funds for new equipment.


----------



## neroden

StriderGDM said:


> There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.
> 
> I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?
> 
> How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).
> 
> And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?


Every single eastern train with sleepers could use an additional sleeper. There needs to be a through sleeper on the Pennsy to the Capitol Limited. The LSL could fill two if the Pennsy/Cap through cars aren't reinstated. The Cardinal needs to go daily. 66/67 needs a sleeper.

That's 4 + 4 + 4 (southern trains) + 6 (LSL/Pennsy/Cap) + 2 (66/67) + 4 or 6 (Cardinal) = 24 to 26. Add shop time and you're up to 29 or 30 already. 25 sleepers and 10 half-sleepers are just barely enough to cover this.

What happens when -- as it will -- demand goes up *again*? What if both the Pennsy/Cap route and the LSL route have booming demand (as they will) and it becomes desirable to add another car to each (6 more)? What happens when there are some wrecks? What happens if there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, say, a second train on the LSL route at different hours? (If there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, it'll be going to NY, I'm quite sure, so it'll require single-levels.)

Just allowing for wrecks means they should order an extra 5 sleepers and an extra 5 bag-dorms. Allowing for predictable demand increases calls for another 10 sleepers.

There's a shortage of Superliners and they're starting to break, and there's no sound business case to replace them except possibly on Auto Train. Converting the Capitol Limited to Viewliners would ease the pain and simplify some platform height issues.

Remember, Amtrak originally intended to order 100 Viewliner sleepers, which is about the right number. They ordered 50. This order adds 25. Another 25 would be appropriate. But even another 5 or 10 would give them some breathing room.


----------



## neroden

George K said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.
Click to expand...

The Superliners gain that little over the Viewliners? I hadn't counted. Not much of an advantage.

The Capitol Limited generally isn't full, particularly in sleeper. Two Superliners seems to be excess capacity, but one is not enough. Two Viewliners would actually be a right-sizing... except they probably cost about the same amount to run as the Superliners.


----------



## neroden

StriderGDM said:


> Most of the equipment Amtrak probably needs are coaches.
> 
> As for diners, figure 4 for Silver Meteor, 4 for Crescent, 3 for Lake Shore Limited. That's 12.
> 
> If you add in 4 more for a returned Silver Star, you're up to 16.
> 
> Even if you assume 3-4 for spares (which is lousy utilization) that's 20.
> 
> You still have 5 left over.


Daily Cardinal.


----------



## neroden

StriderGDM said:


> You know, it's the first time I've heard that idea (converting cafe-lounges) to coaches, which makes sense.
> 
> So great, now you have enough for one more train. It's a start but...


The Amfleet II cafe-lounges are generally pretty underutilized on the LSL, except when they're pretending to be dining cars. Converting them to coaches makes sense. Converting them to cafe / business-class also makes sense.


----------



## neroden

Ryan said:


> An all-Viewliner train would look somewhat interesting... Kind of oddly shaped...


Here's hoping.

Thanks for the photos, and I'm glad the production rate is starting to look like we might see some progress. If two a month keeps up, we might see Viewdiners on the LSL before my trip to the NARP meeting in November. :crosses fingers:


----------



## PVD

I thought that the AM2 lounge on the LSL was swapped for cafe/bc originating in Boston and the lounge that is running is the substitute for the diner?


----------



## RPC

George K said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.
Click to expand...

You actually lose 4 bedrooms. (Superliner has 6 bedrooms plus handicapped, Viewliner has 2 bedrooms plus handicapped.)


----------



## DSS&A

neroden said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.
> 
> I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?
> 
> How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).
> 
> And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?
> 
> 
> 
> Every single eastern train with sleepers could use an additional sleeper. There needs to be a through sleeper on the Pennsy to the Capitol Limited. The LSL could fill two if the Pennsy/Cap through cars aren't reinstated. The Cardinal needs to go daily. 66/67 needs a sleeper.That's 4 + 4 + 4 (southern trains) + 6 (LSL/Pennsy/Cap) + 2 (66/67) + 4 or 6 (Cardinal) = 24 to 26. Add shop time and you're up to 29 or 30 already. 25 sleepers and 10 half-sleepers are just barely enough to cover this.
> 
> What happens when -- as it will -- demand goes up *again*? What if both the Pennsy/Cap route and the LSL route have booming demand (as they will) and it becomes desirable to add another car to each (6 more)? What happens when there are some wrecks? What happens if there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, say, a second train on the LSL route at different hours? (If there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, it'll be going to NY, I'm quite sure, so it'll require single-levels.)
> 
> Just allowing for wrecks means they should order an extra 5 sleepers and an extra 5 bag-dorms. Allowing for predictable demand increases calls for another 10 sleepers.
> 
> There's a shortage of Superliners and they're starting to break, and there's no sound business case to replace them except possibly on Auto Train. Converting the Capitol Limited to Viewliners would ease the pain and simplify some platform height issues.
> 
> Remember, Amtrak originally intended to order 100 Viewliner sleepers, which is about the right number. They ordered 50. This order adds 25. Another 25 would be appropriate. But even another 5 or 10 would give them some breathing room.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. The 70 car option should be fully executed. As you stated above for a daily Cardinal and growth 5 more baggage-dorms and 25 more sleepers. I would add 2 more baggage-dorms, 2 diners and 4 more sleepers for the talked about future Dallas section of the Crescent (2 train section sets and a few LD coaches to be added somehow), 4 sleepers, converting the CL to single-level would add 2 baggage, 2 diners and 2 more sleepers to be handed off to the Pennsylvanian. Add 2 diners for the Maple Leaf trains 63/64 to replace the cafe cars. I would also add 4 baggage and 4 diners for spare/wreck protection. Your suggestion and my suggestions add to 58 cars, so 12 more to go. Anyone have other thoughts?


----------



## R30A

RPC said:


> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You actually lose 4 bedrooms. (Superliner has 6 bedrooms plus handicapped, Viewliner has 2 bedrooms plus handicapped.)
Click to expand...

Superliners have 5. A B C D E.


----------



## tricia

R30A said:


> RPC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George K said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.
> 
> 
> 
> Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You actually lose 4 bedrooms. (Superliner has 6 bedrooms plus handicapped, Viewliner has 2 bedrooms plus handicapped.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Superliners have 5. A B C D E.
Click to expand...

Plus the family bedroom, in addition to accessible bedroom.


----------



## Blackwolf

If (total fantasy here) we go down the road of single-level trains replacing Superliners, there is absolutely nothing other than "we've never done that before" stopping Amtrak from outfitting a number of Viewliner sleepers as an All Bedroom configuration, minus two roomette-sized modules (one bathroom/shower and one roomette for the attendant.) Never gonna happen, because Amtrak isn't ordering any more Viewliners and Amtrak can't think outside of their broken corporate programming to save their own hides.


----------



## StriderGDM

Why would we even consider replacing Superliners with single-level trains?


----------



## Lonestar648

What Amtrak needs to do is order more Superliners now so maybe they will start arriving by 2020 and beyond.


----------



## StriderGDM

Let's agree that Amtrak needs to order a LOT of equipment, but right now, the only stuff on order that will carry passengers is the new Acela II trainsets and Viewliners.

The bi-level order is a mess and we can't count on that for anything for at least 1-2 years, if ever.

And the Viewliners are good for what they are, but not necessarily great coaches.


----------



## Lonestar648

This mess is most likely making the Anti-Amtrak crew very happy.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

StriderGDM said:


> Why would we even consider replacing Superliners with single-level trains?


It seems that a new order for single-level cars would be easier politically than TWO new orders simultaneously, one for single-level equipment AND one for bi-levels.

And the new single-level order could be more than one-for-one replacements.

With enuff new single-level cars, presumably Amtrak could turn a couple of the current Superliner trains into single-level trains. For example, the D.C.-CHI _Capitol Ltd _and the NOLA-CHI _City of New Orleans _could be candidates. The handful of cars used on the Oklahoma City-Ft Worth_ Heartland Flyer_ and those used on the NOLA-San Antonio _"Sunset Shuttle" _segment (left over after the _Texas Eagle_ combines with the San Antonio-L.A. segment of the _Sunset Ltd_.) would add to the transfer pool.

Then the displaced Superliner equipment could go out West where trains are often sold out. In this way, there could be relief to the Western Superliner trains while they wait their turn for a big order for bi-level equipment.

Well, that's the theory.

But someone said that adding the _Capitol_'s three train sets and the _CONO_'s sets would not be quite enuff for the added sets needed to go daily with the San Antonio-L.A. _Sunset Ltd/Texas Eagle_. I'm not sure that's true, but I can't say it isn't.  (Don't recall if they counted the _Heartland Flyer_'s set, or the cars used NOLA-San Antonio. Still, that's cutting things close, extra coaches to work with but no sleepers or diners.)

I don't know how easily an equipment change would work, given the different platform heights and all. But there is a good reason to consider the possibility.


----------



## tommylicious

Onto which lines have the most recent pair of Viewliner II Diners been deployed?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> Onto which lines have the most recent pair of Viewliner II Diners been deployed?


The most recent pair just went to Miami. I think it takes about 2 weeks before they're ready to be sent back north.

I believe the only two trains with new diners are the Silver Meteor and the Crescent.


----------



## Steve4031

Using view liners on 29/30 and 58/59 makes sense imho. I think it would be politically and logistically easier for Amtrak to add to the order of view liners. Iirc there is an option to add cars to the viewfinder order.

I've seen bedroom rates lowered than roomette rates on both trains. I think one additional sleeper on each consist would meet the demand for roomettes and bedrooms on these routes.


----------



## PVD

The bag dorms will contribute some sale able rooms to a couple of single level trains. A single level CONO might enable a protect VL in New Orleans to serve both it and the Crescent.


----------



## west point

Using superliner vs using single level cars has several items that have to be considered..

1. Is it correct that 4 AM-2s = 3 SLs both sleeper and coach ?

2. Platform lengths may come into play as single levels may require an additional station stop ?

3. Maintenance crews at stations such as CLT & ATL may not have training on SLs ? And MEM for single levels ?

4. Same for OBS crews ? and conductors ?

5. Ignoring #2 - 4 The CSX Sand Patch derailment certainly could have been mitigated if Crescent and Capitol could have swapped consists allowing for a single level Capitol detour. But how could Amtrak handled the stranded SL consist going CHI <> Pittsburg other than putting it on the Cardinal ? Suspect Cardinal Single levels not enough for Capitol ?

Now if Amtrak had enough equipment the day trip WASH <> ATL could be superliners ?


----------



## neroden

On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.


----------



## PVD

Although only anecdotal, my experiences on the CL have born that out. I've snagged bedrooms on the CL at prices comparable to roomettes (especially as opposed to the LSL)


----------



## Crescent ATN & TCL

Horizon cars were originally intended to be converted into long distance coaches once the new bilevels were delivered but that may be far off in the future....


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

neroden said:


> On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.


Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other Amtrak trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD). In comparison, the CONO has 12. I understand that in a certain situation conversion might make sense, but to me it would be a clear downgrade so I would not support such a move unless I can be assured that extra single-level cars will be available while bi-levels will not. I agree that single-level coaches and lounges are next to be replaced, but I doubt there will be enough funding for extra cars than are needed for a complete replacement of Amfleet IIs. 
Another thing to consider is the Midwest bi-level order. Nothing is guaranteed at this point, but if the contract is re-bid and bi-levels are once again pursued I think it could present an opportunity for Amtrak to get involved via a modified design for long-distance trains. Again, this is far from a certainty from even occurring but if it did it could present an opportunity for a bi-level long distance order.

After new Midwest cars are received, the Horizons will be available but I don't think they should be modified for LD trains. They are almost 30 years old as is. Corridor trains are also the main area of growth for Amtrak in recent years. I believe they would be better used in their current form for either additional frequencies on Midwest corridors or new corridor trains elsewhere. The Blue Water, Pere Marquette, and Hoosier State could all use another frequency or more. In addition, the Quad Cities and Black Hawk will need equipment from somewhere, assuming they are implemented. The cars could also be used for new corridor routes such as Chicago-Cleveland and maybe Pittsburgh, Chicago-St. Paul, and a Hoosier State extension to Cincinnati. Outside of the Midwest, New Orleans-Baton Rouge and New Orleans-Mobile are under consideration; numerous other states could also use then if they change politically.


----------



## west point

Brian -- Agree that Horizons need to be allocated to corridor trains but they will need major renovations including a solution for the freezing that occurs each winter on them.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

west point said:


> ... Horizons will need major renovations including a solution for the freezing that occurs each winter on them.


Send them all down South.

Replace the Superliners on the _Heartland Flyer_ Oklahoma City-Ft Worth. New service New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile is already in the plan. NOLA-Baton Rouge corridor service. After the _Sunset Ltd _combines with the _Texas Eagle_ and goes daily, we'll need Horizons for NOLA-Lafayette-Beaumont-Houston-San Antonio.

Consider NOLA-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth. NOLA-Biloxi-Mobile-Montgomery-Birmingham (cross platform connection to the _Crescent_). Maybe Nashville-Memphis-Jackson-Monroe-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth.

Possibly replace the Superliner equipment on the _City of New Orleans_. Horizons on the _CONO_ would get cold in Chicago, but with a quick turnaround, they'd be south of the Ohio and thawing out the next day.


----------



## PVD

If the funding path is not cleared to allow a major car replacement to move forward, they just may have to go plan B which involves major overhauls, systems modernization, and life extension projects. A cushion of cars to put to work with such as the Horizons would be invaluable, while quantities of Amfleets are out of service for the long periods that would be required. .


----------



## KnightRail

It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.


----------



## neroden

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD).
Click to expand...

You're right that I forgot one station (and misplaced the state of two others).

However, Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV) and Rockville (MD) DO handle single-level trains. MARC Train, to be precise.

In fact there are only THREE stations on the CL which handle no other trains: Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), and Cumberland (MD). Three stations. Total.


----------



## neroden

KnightRail said:


> It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.


OK, what is going wrong. Did the subcontractor completely mess up the HVAC? That seems to have been the problem which was taking them out of service?


----------



## KnightRail

neroden said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, what is going wrong. Did the subcontractor completely mess up the HVAC? That seems to have been the problem which was taking them out of service?
Click to expand...

¡Caliente! The bright side is this is the time of year to test and adjust the systems in actual summer operating conditions.


----------



## west point

There are so many possibilities of the HVAC problems that anything is just speculation. Broadly

1. CAF messed up something

2. HVAC sub contractor messed up something

3. Some unintended consequence of marrying the units.

4.. Heat output of dinning car calculated wrong.

Until problem is disclosed we need to just wait !


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

neroden said:


> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right that I forgot one station (and misplaced the state of two others).However, Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV) and Rockville (MD) DO handle single-level trains. MARC Train, to be precise.
> 
> In fact there are only THREE stations on the CL which handle no other trains: Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), and Cumberland (MD). Three stations. Total.
Click to expand...

You're right and I knew that; I meant to write "no other Amtrak trains". I rembered to write that during the second part: "no single-level Amtrak passenger cars". Is the MARC service relevant to the training required for single-level Amtrak service? The MARC service is also irrelevant to the potential for too short of platforms.


WoodyinNYC said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Horizons will need major renovations including a solution for the freezing that occurs each winter on them.
> 
> 
> 
> Send them all down South.
> Replace the Superliners on the _Heartland Flyer_ Oklahoma City-Ft Worth. New service New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile is already in the plan. NOLA-Baton Rouge corridor service. After the _Sunset Ltd _combines with the _Texas Eagle_ and goes daily, we'll need Horizons for NOLA-Lafayette-Beaumont-Houston-San Antonio.
> 
> Consider NOLA-Baton Rouge-Alexandria-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth. NOLA-Biloxi-Mobile-Montgomery-Birmingham (cross platform connection to the _Crescent_). Maybe Nashville-Memphis-Jackson-Monroe-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft Worth.
> 
> Possibly replace the Superliner equipment on the _City of New Orleans_. Horizons on the _CONO_ would get cold in Chicago, but with a quick turnaround, they'd be south of the Ohio and thawing out the next day.
Click to expand...

The problem with that idea is that while those corridors sound good, most are less likely to be implemented than additional Midwest service due to politics. Chicago is also already an established corridor hub, which currently is not the case in DFW or New Orleans. The Quad Cities train is near completion and the MSP train is gaining support. While the Rockford project is on hold, that will likely come back in the near future. Given additional equipment, I would be surprised if Michigan did not pursue additional frequencies on their routes. Although I forgot this in my original post, the Lincoln Service is supposed to gain additional frequencies soon. The others are more long term, but are still possibilities. There may still be some extra Horizons, which would be good for your more realistic lines such as Baton Rouge and Mobile. The Heartland Flyer could also be converted, giving the Superliners to Midwest corridor service. It would probably make sense to use the remaining Horizons on the southern/central Illinois and Missouri routes so the Superliners and newly acquired cars can serve the colder areas of Northern Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Carbondale (or maybe even Memphis), St. Louis, and Kansas City are not exactly warm in the winter, but they rarely remain below freezing for days at a time like is common in the Upper Midwest, giving the cars some thaw time before going back to Chicago.


----------



## neroden

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the Capitol Limited, the bedrooms are routinely underused; there is too high a supply of bedrooms for the demand, and it's not great financially. It would probably be better off with Viewliners. I can only speak to the CL in this regard. There should be no training problem as all CL stations, except a couple in West Virginia, handle single-level traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, are 6 stations on the CL that handle no other trains, and therefore no single-level Amtrak passengers cars. These are Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), Cumberland (MD), Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV), and Rockville (MD).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right that I forgot one station (and misplaced the state of two others).However, Martinsburg (WV), Harpers Ferry (WV) and Rockville (MD) DO handle single-level trains. MARC Train, to be precise.
> 
> In fact there are only THREE stations on the CL which handle no other trains: Alliance (OH), Connellsville (PA), and Cumberland (MD). Three stations. Total.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right and I knew that; I meant to write "no other Amtrak trains". I rembered to write that during the second part: "no single-level Amtrak passenger cars". Is the MARC service relevant to the training required for single-level Amtrak service? The MARC service is also irrelevant to the potential for too short of platforms.
Click to expand...

None of these stations are staffed. The employees on the train have to know how to handle both single-level and bilevel equipment. MARC trains are quite long, and Amtrak stops at short platforms in other places -- in fact I think Harper's Ferry is too short for the Capitol Limited, IIRC.

My point is there would be no real problem in shifting the Capitol Limited to high-floor single-level equipment, and possibly quite a lot of benefit from standardization in the long run. It's in "single level territory", if you see what I mean.


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.


Indeed! The 8400 syndrome (a few trips and right in the shops) lives on.


----------



## StriderGDM

You'd think with so many on property they could by now keep at least 2-3 at a time in revenue service.

VERY frustrating.


----------



## Ngotwalt

So what exactly is the issue? Can we expect it rectified any time soon?

Nick


----------



## neroden

Yeah, seriously, what the hell is going on? The baggage cars are working fine. What did they mess up on the dining cars? (I'm certainly assuming it has to be something which exists on the dining cars and not on the baggage cars.)

If it's the A/C, at least they can put them all in service in the winter. (Hah.)


----------



## me_little_me

KnightRail said:


> It is a disservice to everyone who comes to this thread for Viewliner II news to have to read through countless pages of off-topic posts. Want to talk funding, equipment utilization, hypotheticals, etc., for the love of CAF please take it to another thread. The topic is Viewliner II delivery and production... acceptance, and operational status. So actually on topic, there was a time this past weekend when there was a goose egg for total in revenue service.


I agree.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Any chance of a Columbus-Concord road trip in the near future?

Nick


----------



## Lonestar648

Any word on when the next two VL DC cars will be released to Amtrak?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> Any chance of a Columbus-Concord road trip in the near future?
> 
> Nick



Let's see what the Magic 8 Ball says:









> Any word on when the next two VL DC cars will be released to Amtrak?


Got a Snicker's bar?


----------



## neroden

So, if the only problems are A/C, can we expect a bunch of cars once the snow starts falling?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Remember, the H and V often go with the AC.


----------



## KnightRail

On the bright side three out of four Meteor sets have V2s, at least for today.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thirdrail7 said:


> Remember, the H and V often go with the AC.



Translation:

Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning. HVAC.


----------



## neroden

We already know the heating system is separate from the A/C on the Viewliners.


----------



## Ryan

We do?


----------



## Shanghai

I hope the new V2's have a proper shut-off for the air systems. I'm tired of

taping over the vent when the shut-offs don't work!! Every Viewliner and

Superliner I have been on for at least the past three years have not worked

properly and I have taped over (or the SCA has taped over) the air vent.


----------



## tommylicious

Shanghai said:


> I hope the new V2's have a proper shut-off for the air systems. I'm tired of
> 
> taping over the vent when the shut-offs don't work!! Every Viewliner and
> 
> Superliner I have been on for at least the past three years have not worked
> 
> properly and I have taped over (or the SCA has taped over) the air vent.


Yes, it would be nice to ride Amtrak without having to make temporary modifications to their hvac system! Same with the rattles! We rode the VIA Canadian for 2 days and not a single problem with that stuff!


----------



## neroden

Ryan said:


> We do?


Yep. Sorry, no citation; it's old news.

The baggage cars contain the heating system, which is the same as the heating system on the other cars, but don't contain an A/C system.

Probably the ventilation is part of the A/C, but the heating isn't. I thought that was rather old-fashioned but it's how they did it.


----------



## Steve4031

I know this information is so where in the thread but I can't find it. How many viewliner dinners are actually operating? And how many would be needed for each set on the silver meteor to be equipped with a viewliner diner? I am trying to determine the likelihood that one would be operating if I booked on the silver meteor. Thank you.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Steve4031 said:


> I know this information is so where in the thread but I can't find it. How many viewliner dinners are actually operating?



Let's change the answer. 5 cars have been accepted for revenue service. That doesn't mean that are all available for trains.



Steve4031 said:


> And how many would be needed for each set on the silver meteor to be equipped with a viewliner diner? I am trying to determine the likelihood that one would be operating if I booked on the silver meteor. Thank you.


The Meteor has four sets. I'm struggling to think of a time where four have been operating at once.


----------



## Steve4031

Thank you third rail. So it's better to wait a while to try to ride one. This is purely a railfan trip and could be planned accordingly. Additionally if I wait I could ride the brightness too.


----------



## west point

Spent week in Orlando area. South bound Meteors when V-2 diner on train that diner seamed to take

30 hour delay before going back north on Meteor. One week does not make a pattern. Meteor ran with 2 locos, 5 or 6 coaches almost always AM-2s, lounge, , Diner, 3 V-1 sleepers, & baggage trailing in that order. 11 or 12 cars.


----------



## jis

30 hours in NY is normal for the Meteor consist.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> 30 hours in NY is normal for the Meteor consist.


He said 30 hours before going back north, so it sounds as though he is referring to 97 turning into 98 rather than the other way around. It takes about 27 hours for a Meteor set to return North though Orlando or slightly more in other parts of the area so he may have rounded up to 30.


west point said:


> Spent week in Orlando area. South bound Meteors when V-2 diner on train that diner seamed to take
> 
> 30 hour delay before going back north on Meteor. One week does not make a pattern. Meteor ran with 2 locos, 5 or 6 coaches almost always AM-2s, lounge, , Diner, 3 V-1 sleepers, & baggage trailing in that order. 11 or 12 cars.


Did you see any coaches that weren't Amfleet II? I am a frequent traveller on the Florida trains and I have never seen any coaches that were not Amfleet II on either of the Silver trains. 
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## jis

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 30 hours in NY is normal for the Meteor consist.
> 
> 
> 
> He said 30 hours before going back north, so it sounds as though he is referring to 97 turning into 98 rather than the other way around. It takes about 27 hours for a Meteor set to return North though Orlando or slightly more in other parts of the area so he may have rounded up to 30.
Click to expand...

I was talking of the layover at New York from 98 to 97. Now that you mention it I don't know what he exactly meant. The normal turn in Miami is much shorter, and yeah, through Orlando, it would be something like 24 hours or so.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

How many Silver consists are there?

Since it is a two day journey, I would think you have two of each in route at any one time (one on "day 1" and other on "day 2"). So, 91 on day 1, 91 on day 2, 97 on day 1, 97 on day 2, 92 on day 1, 92 on day 2, 98 on day 1, and 98 on day 2. That's 8 consists. Are there another 4 on 24 (or 30) hour, turn around hold too, making it 12 consists?

That seems way too many. Where am I wrong?


----------



## A Voice

Cho Cho Charlie said:


> How many Silver consists are there?
> 
> Since it is a two day journey, I would think you have two of each in route at any one time (one on "day 1" and other on "day 2"). So, 91 on day 1, 91 on day 2, 97 on day 1, 97 on day 2, 92 on day 1, 92 on day 2, 98 on day 1, and 98 on day 2. That's 8 consists. Are there another 4 on 24 (or 30) hour, turn around hold too, making it 12 consists?
> 
> That seems way too many. Where am I wrong?



The _Silver Star_ and the _Silver Meteor_ each require four trainsets (eight in total), though that number does not account for necessary spares (regular maintenance, etc.). Of course, the _Star_ at this time does no operate with a dining car.


----------



## west point

Will clarify. Southbound Meteor on say Friday becomes northbound on Sat. V-2 Diner appeared to rotate out of otherwise consist northbound on SAT. . Then that Friday V-2 diner on Sunday's northbound.

That was just last Monday - Saturday. Noted the AM-1 on the 6 coach train.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I was wondering how they were going to handle this but if miles are like days, we'll have a solo release:







Concorde (and a few others) will likely fly....






h34r:


----------



## StriderGDM

Well in most of the US, exit numbers correspond to the mileage marker in a southbound or westbound direction. (Except ironically enough in NYS).

But, I suspect you don't mean the exit number.

Interesting and good news I guess.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

StriderGDM said:


> Well in most of the US, exit numbers correspond to the mileage marker in a southbound or westbound direction. (Except ironically enough in NYS).
> 
> But, I suspect you don't mean the exit number.
> 
> Interesting and good news I guess.


I think he's referring to the 2 miles. So I guess I have plans for when 97 runs again.


----------



## Ngotwalt

I believe he is making a reference to 1982's Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. No uncoded communication on an open channel. Miles would seem like days means the car will be released in two days.

Cheers,

Nick


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> I believe he is making a reference to 1982's Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. No uncoded communication on an open channel. Miles would seem like days means the car will be released in two days.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick



By the book, Admiral!


----------



## Steve4031

If the posts would stick to factual information rather than clever interpretation of delays this thread would be more useful.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Ziv

​Considering how little factual info has been released in the past year, this thread would be a lot shorter if there were no interpretations of the delays. And a lot less fun.



Steve4031 said:


> If the posts would stick to factual information rather than clever interpretation of delays this thread would be more useful.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## StriderGDM

Exactly. ThirdRail7's posts add a bit of levity, and honestly, information to this thread. There's several useful tidbits of information in that single post. All somewhat telling.


----------



## A Voice

Steve4031 said:


> If the posts would stick to factual information rather than clever interpretation of delays this thread would be more useful.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


If some posters revealed everything of interest which they know in a plain, matter of fact manner, they might sometimes look forward to a new career opportunity flipping burgers. Clever is far more interesting (and, I'd imagine, comes with full deniability).


----------



## Steve4031

Im not asking anybody to put their job on the line. I know third rail is a railroader and frequently provides great information. If he is making these posts to avoid appearing to leak information that is different. They did not make any sense to me. That I is why I said something. I would caution him to put his job ahead of us railfans. I wish him nothing but the best in his profession.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## WoodyinNYC

This is a good time to repost the link to the list that jis provided about 3 months ago.



jis said:


> you can see all the name and number assignments here:
> 
> http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-viewname.shtml#viewdiner


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Concorde (and a few others) will likely fly....


Your second photo is missing. Try again?


----------



## StriderGDM

No, I think you misunderstood the 2nd picture.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

StriderGDM said:


> No, I think you misunderstood the 2nd picture.


As I understand it, the Columbus and Concord are next by alphabetical order. But that big plane won't take off as scheduled. So we might get Columbus and Dover before it. I'm ok with that. Alternatively, it could be Columbus delayed, but the big plane taking off without it. I'm ok with that, too, if Dover comes with it.

I'll be very disappointed if we only get one diner this round. 

We should all hurry with our speculations on which car or cars will leave Elmira without all our wild guesses entered in the pool. LOL.

And now I worry that Hialeah will not be dry when the cars are set to arrive.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Thirdrail7 said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe he is making a reference to 1982's Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. No uncoded communication on an open channel. Miles would seem like days means the car will be released in two days.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> By the book, Admiral!
Click to expand...

I'd say you make Lt. Saavik proud, but we both know that's not true.

Nick


----------



## neroden

StriderGDM said:


> No, I think you misunderstood the 2nd picture.


I somehow doubt that ThirdRail intended to post a *broken link*. Although that would be a subtle hint, I suppose (as in http://this.is.broken/),it would be a rather depressing hint -- and I would have expected some sort of photo.

OK, the link seems to be back up again -- it prohibits hotlinking, I suspect. So now I managed to figure out what ThirdRail actually intended to post:

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000444575534/4b0671eaccb32a64980a616bb3b7ba30.jpeg


----------



## StriderGDM

neroden said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think you misunderstood the 2nd picture.
> 
> 
> 
> I somehow doubt that ThirdRail intended to post a *broken link*. Although that would be a subtle hint, I suppose (as in http://this.is.broken/),it would be a rather depressing hint -- and I would have expected some sort of photo.
> 
> OK, the link seems to be back up again -- it prohibits hotlinking, I suspect. So now I managed to figure out what ThirdRail actually intended to post:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000444575534/4b0671eaccb32a64980a616bb3b7ba30.jpeg
Click to expand...

I'm completely confused. That was what has been there all along and no broken link on this end.


----------



## daybeers

StriderGDM said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think you misunderstood the 2nd picture.
> 
> 
> 
> I somehow doubt that ThirdRail intended to post a *broken link*. Although that would be a subtle hint, I suppose (as in http://this.is.broken/),it would be a rather depressing hint -- and I would have expected some sort of photo.
> 
> OK, the link seems to be back up again -- it prohibits hotlinking, I suspect. So now I managed to figure out what ThirdRail actually intended to post:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000444575534/4b0671eaccb32a64980a616bb3b7ba30.jpeg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm completely confused. That was what has been there all along and no broken link on this end.
Click to expand...

Same here.


----------



## A Voice

StriderGDM said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think you misunderstood the 2nd picture.
> 
> 
> 
> I somehow doubt that ThirdRail intended to post a *broken link*. Although that would be a subtle hint, I suppose (as in http://this.is.broken/),it would be a rather depressing hint -- and I would have expected some sort of photo.
> 
> OK, the link seems to be back up again -- it prohibits hotlinking, I suspect. So now I managed to figure out what ThirdRail actually intended to post:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000444575534/4b0671eaccb32a64980a616bb3b7ba30.jpeg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm completely confused. That was what has been there all along and no broken link on this end.
Click to expand...




daybeers said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think you misunderstood the 2nd picture.
> 
> 
> 
> I somehow doubt that ThirdRail intended to post a *broken link*. Although that would be a subtle hint, I suppose (as in http://this.is.broken/),it would be a rather depressing hint -- and I would have expected some sort of photo.
> 
> OK, the link seems to be back up again -- it prohibits hotlinking, I suspect. So now I managed to figure out what ThirdRail actually intended to post:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/378800000444575534/4b0671eaccb32a64980a616bb3b7ba30.jpeg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm completely confused. That was what has been there all along and no broken link on this end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same here.
Click to expand...

There are any number of reasons - quite possibly on neroden's end - why he may be seeing a broken link while it works fine for the rest of us. Could be a different browser, security settings, etc. For reasons I still don't understand (nor what "fixed" the problem) the Chrome browser wouldn't let me connect (or view anything linked) to Wikipedia for months. Then one day it stated working again.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I'm guessing Columbus will be on 97(15). Unless Hialeah isn't ready for it.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## me_little_me

So how many are there in service - i.e. not being repaired or not ready? If they are not in service, when will they be back? With so much discussion, the air at this altitude is getting cloudy.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I would guess that on a particular day almost nobody here knows precisely which delivered cars are actually in service.


----------



## mgl1978

AmtrakBlue said:


> I'm guessing Columbus will be on 97(15). Unless Hialeah isn't ready for it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Amtrak still has service disruptions in Florida due to Hurricane Irma. They won't send any new cars south until resumption of full service to Miami. The pickup from Elmira probably occurred so you might see it in Sunnyside.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

mgl1978 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Columbus will be on 97(15). Unless Hialeah isn't ready for it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak still has service disruptions in Florida due to Hurricane Irma. They won't send any new cars south until resumption of full service to Miami. The pickup from Elmira probably occurred so you might see it in Sunnyside.
Click to expand...

I had based my assumption on a post that indicated they'd be running - but this has since been modified.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## WoodyinNYC

mgl1978 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Columbus will be on 97(15). Unless Hialeah isn't ready for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak still has service disruptions in Florida due to Hurricane Irma. They won't send any new cars south until resumption of full service to Miami.
Click to expand...

The current delays are not the fault of CAF.


----------



## jis

WoodyinNYC said:


> mgl1978 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Columbus will be on 97(15). Unless Hialeah isn't ready for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak still has service disruptions in Florida due to Hurricane Irma. They won't send any new cars south until resumption of full service to Miami.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The current delays are not the fault of CAF.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Why would one expect a car builder to deliver cars in which the Air-conditioner actually works. How very daft of people to have such odd expectations!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Yeah. No reason to get all hot and bothered over that.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgl1978 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Columbus will be on 97(15). Unless Hialeah isn't ready for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak still has service disruptions in Florida due to Hurricane Irma. They won't send any new cars south until resumption of full service to Miami.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The current delays are not the fault of CAF.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah. Why would one expect a car builder to deliver cars in which the Air-conditioner actually works. How very daft of people to have such odd expectations!
Click to expand...

Are we sure that Amtrak did not specify specific AC equipment in order to provide interchangeability with existing cars? I have no idea if that happened, but we are talking Amtrak, so just saying.


----------



## PVD

Older equipment would likely have been r-22 based, newer equipment can not be. Also, I would not be surprised if the compressor is a more modern/efficient design. The tendency in new railcars, where the car type permits, is to use packaged units in the roof for ease of swap out for maintenance.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mgl1978 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Columbus will be on 97(15). Unless Hialeah isn't ready for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak still has service disruptions in Florida due to Hurricane Irma. They won't send any new cars south until resumption of full service to Miami.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The current delays are not the fault of CAF.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah. Why would one expect a car builder to deliver cars in which the Air-conditioner actually works. How very daft of people to have such odd expectations!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are we sure that Amtrak did not specify specific AC equipment in order to provide interchangeability with existing cars? I have no idea if that happened, but we are talking Amtrak, so just saying.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Unfortunately exceptionalism appears to apply to Amtrak and the decisions it makes, in spades, unfortunately. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## west point

Has Amtrak moved the V-2 diners temporarily to all Crescent and LSL ? That until service restored to MIA ?


----------



## GaSteve

west point said:


> Has Amtrak moved the V-2 diners temporarily to all Crescent and LSL ? That until service restored to MIA ?


No


----------



## ainamkartma

west point said:


> Has Amtrak moved the V-2 diners temporarily to all Crescent and LSL ? That until service restored to MIA ?


Are there any diners at all on the LSL at this time? If so, I missed the announcement of their return.

Ainamkartma


----------



## OBS

ainamkartma said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has Amtrak moved the V-2 diners temporarily to all Crescent and LSL ? That until service restored to MIA ?
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any diners at all on the LSL at this time? If so, I missed the announcement of their return.
> 
> Ainamkartma
Click to expand...

No....just the lounge subbing for the diner....


----------



## Ngotwalt

On trainorders there are photos of two SM consists being stored in Philly until the Meteor starts running again. Augusta and Boston are in these two consists as the dining car "of record."

Cheers, Nick


----------



## Amtrak706

I happened to be near Elmira, NY today, so I took a look around CAF. I saw several Viewliner shells in the back, some on trucks and some not. What's odd is that they all appeared to be sleeper cars, and several were even wrapped by the doors like they were being stored. Does anyone know what's up with this?

(Photos are below. Check out their little shop switcher as well.)

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/O5aZmWM

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/fz85voS

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/2wUzOPq

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/OOif8xW

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/Iv5oexO


----------



## jis

And so the mystery saga of VL II deliveries continues unabated...


----------



## Lonestar648

Looking at these photos, it appears that no work is being done. They mystery is on going.


----------



## KnightRail

Columbus is bringing up the rear of 97(19)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I worked from home today, so didn't get to my usual spot and didn't think to go to a spot near my home. Sorry, TR7, I have failed this mission.


----------



## Ryan

Church meeting, same failure here. 



Lonestar648 said:


> Looking at these photos, it appears that no work is being done. They mystery is on going.


How exactly can you draw that conclusion from those photographs?


----------



## Amtrak706

Ryan said:


> Church meeting, same failure here.
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at these photos, it appears that no work is being done. They mystery is on going.
> 
> 
> 
> How exactly can you draw that conclusion from those photographs?
Click to expand...

I took those photos this Sunday, so work *could* be going on during the week.


----------



## StriderGDM

In addition, shells sitting outside, says nothing about work being done inside. My understanding is a lot (if not all?) shells are complete. It's the interior work that is slowing things down.

In fact I'd honestly be more worried if where were no shells outside.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I agree. Work is clearly not being done on the car bodies that are sitting out in car body storage land, likely waiting for an open bay in the factory where the cars you can't see are being outfitted.

Theory: They built the bodies first in one batch (which is a distinct process) and then after delivering varying prototypes, then initiated outfitting bodies. Those all look like sleepers to me, and they are currently working on diners.

Why do people act with such desperation to see something going wrong? Is it what you want? That is a picture grouping of a bunch of empty car shells in a storage yard. It is not a picture of an empty or idle factory. If you see a time stamped photo of the empty employee parking lot at 2PM on a Tuesday, that would be a lot more suggestive than this.


----------



## Amtrak706

Green Maned Lion said:


> I agree. Work is clearly not being done on the car bodies that are sitting out in car body storage land, likely waiting for an open bay in the factory where the cars you can't see are being outfitted.
> 
> Theory: They built the bodies first in one batch (which is a distinct process) and then after delivering varying prototypes, then initiated outfitting bodies. Those all look like sleepers to me, and they are currently working on diners.
> 
> Why do people act with such desperation to see something going wrong? Is it what you want? That is a picture grouping of a bunch of empty car shells in a storage yard. It is not a picture of an empty or idle factory. If you see a time stamped photo of the empty employee parking lot at 2PM on a Tuesday, that would be a lot more suggestive than this.


I thought it might be something like that, but I was just curious if anyone knew for sure. I just found it odd that they would make so many sleeper shells before the bulk of the diners are done. Maybe the rest of the diner shells are in the hangar.
Also, I’m pretty sure the second part of this response was directed at the other poster, but just to be clear, I never attempted to make that point, nor do I even believe it. I am simply curious about CAF’s production strategy and how that relates to what I saw this Sunday.


----------



## PVD

Making shells involves cutting forming and welding, that is usually a different set of people in a different location than would be doing the other work. Many railcars (not these) have even had shells delivered from fabrication points in other countries.


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> Making shells involves cutting forming and welding, that is usually a different set of people in a different location than would be doing the other work. Many railcars (not these) have even had shells delivered from fabrication points in other countries.


Like the Silverliner Vs for example.


----------



## PVD

Sure. It is entirely reasonable to build shells at whatever rate makes sense, and free up that portion of the operation for another project.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

StriderGDM said:


> In addition, shells sitting outside, says nothing about work being done inside. My understanding is a lot (if not all?) shells are complete. It's the interior work that is slowing things down.


What bothers me is that it appears that the shells have temporary trucks? I assume Amtrak didn't specify those baby blue trucks. 

If my memory is still even partially working, there was a problem with a company that supplies the trucks (or a major part of them?) going bankrupted. If these shells do indeed lack their final trucks at this time, that might mean that this supplier problem hasn't been resolved yet.


----------



## PVD

It is not uncommon in today's manufacturing to have major parts arrive right before you need them (just in time inventory) You don't have to store them, and it is usually a factor in payment scheduling. Putting them on temps to move them out of the building makes sense regardless of whether the permanent truck situation is resolved or not.


----------



## west point

This poster is also wondering about the truck problems. Not only V-2 cars may have truck problems but many MPR reports mention that P-42 overhauls have been delayed for replacement trucks. Same builder for both or separate vendors ?


----------



## Train_Freak

According to Wikipedia the original trucks for the Genesis series were made by Krupp which is now owned by Siemens (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_Genesis), I am unsure about who manufactures the trucks for CAF could it of been Columbus Castings?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Acela150

jis said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Making shells involves cutting forming and welding, that is usually a different set of people in a different location than would be doing the other work. Many railcars (not these) have even had shells delivered from fabrication points in other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Like the Silverliner Vs for example.
Click to expand...

You just had to bring up this.. :lol: The welds on the Rotem cars that are owned by Septa look like a 2 year old made them. They're terrible. When I worked on that equipment it wasn't uncommon for something to malfunction. Bottom line is the Rotem cars are trash. I can't stand them and wish the contract went to Kawasaki in the first place. And we're about to go through round two of Septa being cheap and choosing and inexperienced builder and I can't wait to go to an open hearing that Septa hold to ask them will they ever learn, to which they'll dodge the question like true politicians.

End of ran and back to Viewliners.


----------



## Agent

Video by SuperStarRendon from Tuesday showing _Columbus_ on the end of the _Silver Meteor_.


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Making shells involves cutting forming and welding, that is usually a different set of people in a different location than would be doing the other work. Many railcars (not these) have even had shells delivered from fabrication points in other countries.
> 
> 
> 
> Like the Silverliner Vs for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You just had to bring up this.. :lol: The welds on the Rotem cars that are owned by Septa look like a 2 year old made them. They're terrible. When I worked on that equipment it wasn't uncommon for something to malfunction. Bottom line is the Rotem cars are trash. I can't stand them and wish the contract went to Kawasaki in the first place. And we're about to go through round two of Septa being cheap and choosing and inexperienced builder and I can't wait to go to an open hearing that Septa hold to ask them will they ever learn, to which they'll dodge the question like true politicians.
> 
> End of ran and back to Viewliners.
Click to expand...

Some are so predictable! Heh heh!


----------



## Acela150

Toche Jishnu. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] At least it’s you getting me started.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## KnightRail

Augusta, Baton Rouge, & Boston are all out on the road. Meteor, Crescent, Crescent respectively.


----------



## GaSteve

KnightRail said:


> Augusta, Baton Rouge, & Boston are all out on the road. Meteor, Crescent, Crescent respectively.


I can confirm that there was a VL diner on #20 on 9/19/17. Not 9/18 or 9/20.


----------



## tommylicious

Geeze Louize when does LSL get one?


----------



## Ryan

When there are certainly enough to go around.


----------



## tommylicious

When dat be?


----------



## A Voice

tommylicious said:


> When dat be?


Ask CAF.

I don't think I'd hold my breath, at this point.


----------



## neroden

PVD said:


> It is not uncommon in today's manufacturing to have major parts arrive right before you need them (just in time inventory) You don't have to store them, and it is usually a factor in payment scheduling. Putting them on temps to move them out of the building makes sense regardless of whether the permanent truck situation is resolved or not.


I know the history behind JIT inventory. Stupidest idea ever. Came from the finance guys.


----------



## PVD

I'm not arguing for or against its merits, just pointing out its existence and potential relevance to this situation.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

JIT is not a bad idea... it works quite well in Japan. It just isn't very applicable in the US where land is so dirt cheap.


----------



## StriderGDM

tommylicious said:


> Geeze Louize when does LSL get one?


It won't get "one". It'll get all or none. So that means at least delivery of I think 4 more.

You really can't offer a service where a train sometimes has a diner and sometimes doesn't. So, you need enough delivered to cover all the trainsets.

So it'll be a few months at least.


----------



## PVD

I'll be on the LSL Nov-6/7 and am resigned to the current situation. I'll be very surprised if changes before then.


----------



## StriderGDM

Yeah, I wouldn't expect anything before December at the ABSOLUTE earliest at this rate. Probably Feb is my guess.


----------



## PVD

I'm going out CL so it's only the return....breakfast and lunch...I'll live....


----------



## Acela150

You get dinner on the Cap out of Chitown as well. Lunch is a limited menu. I think they call it an “express lunch”.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Blackwolf

While I prefer the ambiance of a full diner, the meal choices served in a real full diner and an Amfleet II diner-lite really are very indifferent to one another. Fewer choices, sure. But, the burger I had on #6 (a FULL Superliner II Diner) on Sunday September 10th of this year and the burger I had on #48 (a Amfleet II Diner-Lite) on Tuesday September 12 of this year was IDENTICAL in both flavor and texture. And the presentation was better on #48. The omelet was identical between the two trains as well.

Lets face it, people. Amtrak does NOT COOK FOOD anymore. The days of actually using a true full kitchen really are behind us; everything is precooked to a degree and then reheated. The food preparation areas are not utilized fully any longer on true Dining Cars.

About the only difference is the ambiance. Eating in a tube with mis-matched tables and windows, or having a more formal experience.


----------



## PVD

Out on the CL I'll get dinner and breakfast, but my return is on the LSL so it is well past dinner time.....No problem with getting food in Chicago as many have pointed out in various threads before.....


----------



## Lonestar648

Seems like Amtrak has established a priority list with SM being first, Crescent second, so would LSL be third? SS fourth?


----------



## PVD

LSL is likely 3rd, it serves less meals than the CR. As has been been beaten to death in various threads here, the fate of diner service on the SS is unknown (at least publicly)


----------



## A Voice

Lonestar648 said:


> Seems like Amtrak has established a priority list with SM being first, Crescent second, so would LSL be third? SS fourth?


One consideration is that the _Silver Meteor_ operates out of Hialeah where the new Viewliner diners are based, currently the only dining car-equipped train to do so. I would expect the _Crescent_ to come next (indeed, the new diners have already shown up there on some trainsets) simply to get the remaining Heritage cars out of service first.


----------



## me_little_me

StriderGDM said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't expect anything before December at the ABSOLUTE earliest at this rate. Probably Feb is my guess.


I notice you didn't say WHICH February! :hi:


----------



## StriderGDM

A Voice said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like Amtrak has established a priority list with SM being first, Crescent second, so would LSL be third? SS fourth?
> 
> 
> 
> One consideration is that the _Silver Meteor_ operates out of Hialeah where the new Viewliner diners are based, currently the only dining car-equipped train to do so. I would expect the _Crescent_ to come next (indeed, the new diners have already shown up there on some trainsets) simply to get the remaining Heritage cars out of service first.
Click to expand...

Exactly. They won't bother to put diners back onto the LSL until all the Heritage diners are gone. Just not economically a good idea.


----------



## neroden

So, 11 diners for regular service before they can retire all the Heritage cars and have Viewdiners on SM, Crescent, LSL. (They can always use Amfleets for protect service.)

There are currently 10 in Amtrak hands, except that they seem to be spending too much time in the shop. C'mon, guys, repair the HVAC and one more delivery should do it...


----------



## Acela150

neroden said:


> So, 11 diners for regular service before they can retire all the Heritage cars and have Viewdiners on SM, Crescent, LSL. (They can always use Amfleets for protect service.)
> 
> There are currently 10 in Amtrak hands, except that they seem to be spending too much time in the shop. C'mon, guys, repair the HVAC and one more delivery should do it...


Calm down. It's not that easy. You answered in your post why it won't happen. They would have to use Amfleets as protects. Call me crazy, but if I were on the Meteor or Crescent and I was told "Sorry sir the diner is a cafe car today because the full service diner wasn't ok for use on the rails." I'd be livid.

It'll happen. Everyone is so antsy to get these new cars online instead of enjoying what time we have left of the old. That drives me crazy. Ten years from now when the VL II's are in full service it'll be everyday stuff. I get it new toys we wanna rush to play with them. Just the time isn't right for it. When the Silverliner V's were coming out and Septa had a posted schedule on their website of when they would run my Dad had to be trackside for each and every run of the new cars possible. Me, I didn't care cause I knew that they'd be old news in a few years. Instead I focused on the old Budd and Louis cars. And I don't regret it. Yes I have a million and a half photos of Silverliner IV's. But in a few years it'll be the same deal all over again.


----------



## GaSteve

" Call me crazy, but if I were on the Meteor or Crescent and I was told "Sorry sir the diner is a cafe car today because the full service diner wasn't ok for use on the rails." I'd be livid. "

I've been on the Crescent when that happened.


----------



## Steve4031

Happened to me on the lsl. I wasn't happy. But I was no where close to furious. I was planning to eat in my room because I hate those cars. Then I walked through and saw the crew working double time to get everything ready for dinner. They were very friendly when I walked through. I changed my mind and ate in the amfleet car. It was one of my better dinners on the train.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## LookingGlassTie

Haven't been able to find out much info, but how are the Viewliner II diner cars different from the Heritage ones?


----------



## Lonestar648

The kitchen will be all new equipment, should be easier for the cooking staff. The additional windows provide better viewing of the passing scenery. A brand new car will not have the failures and safety issues that the Heritage Diners have.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The Heritage diners are over 60 years old, and have been spending their life on Amtrak getting beaten into the ground with a mallet, and then duct taped and bailingwired back to life, so they can be again struck by a mallet. They are diners that used to run on pre-Amtrak streamliners.

The V2s are newly assembled cars built in one of the greater fusterclucks in car procurement history- although not as bad as that of the NS bi-levels.


----------



## cpotisch

Hello everyone! I was wondering about the expected distribution of the "Viewdiners" between the 4 meal-serving long-distance single-level routes: the Silver Meteor, Crescent, LSL, and Cardinal. From what I understand, the Meteor runs four consists at a time, same with the Crescent, LSL has three (forgetting about the ALB split), and the Card is just one? If I'm correct about that, for Amtrak to run full diners on every consist on those routes, that would mean 12 diners total. Is Amtrak expected to restore full diner service to the Cardinal (equipment permitting)? What routes are likely to get priority for the new cars? Was I correct about there being 12 consists total? If so, how much time should it take Amtrak and CAF to put the necessary remaining V-II diners into service? I'm pretty sure five are in service currently. I'll be traveling on the LSL mid-February 2018 and I'm hoping to get a real diner instead of Diner-Lite.

Thanks in advance for any answers you may have to any of those thousand questions! Have a good one!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Hello everyone! I was wondering about the expected distribution of the "Viewdiners" between the 4 meal-serving long-distance single-level routes: the Silver Meteor, Crescent, LSL, and Cardinal. From what I understand, the Meteor runs four consists at a time, same with the Crescent, LSL has three (forgetting about the ALB split), and the Card is just one? If I'm correct about that, for Amtrak to run full diners on every consist on those routes, that would mean 12 diners total. Is Amtrak expected to restore full diner service to the Cardinal (equipment permitting)? What routes are likely to get priority for the new cars? Was I correct about there being 12 consists total? If so, how much time should it take Amtrak and CAF to put the necessary remaining V-II diners into service? I'm pretty sure five are in service currently. I'll be traveling on the LSL mid-February 2018 and I'm hoping to get a real diner instead of Diner-Lite.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any answers you may have to any of those thousand questions! Have a good one!


Might I suggest you read this thread and others devoted to the Viewliner IIs. Lots of information that will answer your questions in them.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> Hello everyone! I was wondering about the expected distribution of the "Viewdiners" between the 4 meal-serving long-distance single-level routes: the Silver Meteor, Crescent, LSL, and Cardinal. From what I understand, the Meteor runs four consists at a time, same with the Crescent, LSL has three (forgetting about the ALB split), and the Card is just one? If I'm correct about that, for Amtrak to run full diners on every consist on those routes, that would mean 12 diners total. Is Amtrak expected to restore full diner service to the Cardinal (equipment permitting)? What routes are likely to get priority for the new cars? Was I correct about there being 12 consists total? If so, how much time should it take Amtrak and CAF to put the necessary remaining V-II diners into service? I'm pretty sure five are in service currently. I'll be traveling on the LSL mid-February 2018 and I'm hoping to get a real diner instead of Diner-Lite.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any answers you may have to any of those thousand questions! Have a good one!


The Cardinal requires 2 sets, so assuming dining cars were restored to it and not the Silver Star 13 would be needed (not counting spares). It seems as though the Silver Meteor and Crescent will be fully equipped first, followed by the Lake Shore Limited. The Cardinal and/or Silver Star may follow later. 
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello everyone! I was wondering about the expected distribution of the "Viewdiners" between the 4 meal-serving long-distance single-level routes: the Silver Meteor, Crescent, LSL, and Cardinal. From what I understand, the Meteor runs four consists at a time, same with the Crescent, LSL has three (forgetting about the ALB split), and the Card is just one? If I'm correct about that, for Amtrak to run full diners on every consist on those routes, that would mean 12 diners total. Is Amtrak expected to restore full diner service to the Cardinal (equipment permitting)? What routes are likely to get priority for the new cars? Was I correct about there being 12 consists total? If so, how much time should it take Amtrak and CAF to put the necessary remaining V-II diners into service? I'm pretty sure five are in service currently. I'll be traveling on the LSL mid-February 2018 and I'm hoping to get a real diner instead of Diner-Lite.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any answers you may have to any of those thousand questions! Have a good one!
> 
> 
> 
> Might I suggest you read this thread and others devoted to the Viewliner IIs. Lots of information that will answer your questions in them.
Click to expand...

Will do. I had posted that as a new topic, having not noticed this. Now I've got all the answers though!


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> Seems like Amtrak has established a priority list with SM being first, Crescent second, so would LSL be third? SS fourth?


I would expect the Star to stay diner-less, no matter the equipment available. LSL got diner-lite because of heritage shortages. Cardinal got an even worse diner-lite for simpler operation and no chef (to pay). Equipment permitting, there's no reason to keep the LSL a diner-lite. Cardinal is a bit iffy, but one could make a case to restore it. The Silver Star system eliminates the entire dining car staff, doesn't give sleeper passengers free meals, AND only needs one locomotive. It's terrible for passengers, but is perfect for Amtrak. And there's the good ol' SM as an alternative.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the diner-lite and SS programs, but I think the Star is gonna stay this way.


----------



## cpotisch

Anyone know how many V-II Diners are in Amtrak's hands currently?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Anyone know how many V-II Diners are in Amtrak's hands currently?


Columbus was the latest one to be delivered. If you know your eastern state capitals in alphabetical order, you can count them, starting with the 2nd one (because Albany apparently will be the last one released).  Not trying to be snarky. I don't remember the actual count so far.


----------



## PVD

There was a link in one of the threads to the OTOL list that has the names/numbers that will be used.....Albany went back, and one was skipped when Columbus came out. Not sure what that adds up to, but the number delivered is probably double the number actually in service. There is a bottomless pool of speculation, mostly focusing on HVAC as to what is keeping so many on the shelf. Even if all was well, they would spend some time in Hialeah for prep before hitting the road anyway.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Current list of diners released from CAF



68001 Annapolis 68002 Atlanta 68003 Augusta 68004 Baton Rouge 68005 Boston 68006 Charleston 68007 Columbia 68008 Columbus


----------



## PVD

I thought Columbia got skipped and Columbus came solo?


----------



## tommylicious

how many more before the LSL gets one u think?


----------



## Eric S

Wasn't that question about the LSL asked and answered about a week ago?


----------



## cpotisch

tommylicious said:


> how many more before the LSL gets one u think?


Most likely 13 are needed. That's four for the SM, four the Crescent, three for the LSL, and two in reserve. I know for sure that 68001-68005 are in service. 68008 has been released but is not in service. I'm not sure about 68006 and 68007. Including 8400, that makes at least 7. That means we need another 4-6 cars to replace the LSL diner-lite.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like Amtrak has established a priority list with SM being first, Crescent second, so would LSL be third? SS fourth?
> 
> 
> 
> I would expect the Star to stay diner-less, no matter the equipment available. LSL got diner-lite because of heritage shortages. Cardinal got an even worse diner-lite for simpler operation and no chef (to pay). Equipment permitting, there's no reason to keep the LSL a diner-lite. Cardinal is a bit iffy, but one could make a case to restore it. The Silver Star system eliminates the entire dining car staff, doesn't give sleeper passengers free meals, AND only needs one locomotive. It's terrible for passengers, but is perfect for Amtrak. And there's the good ol' SM as an alternative.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I hate the diner-lite and SS programs, but I think the Star is gonna stay this way.
Click to expand...

.

AFAICT Cardinal does not have any real Diner Staff beyond the LSA (unless they have recently added an SA). Mostly the SCAs come in and help out to serve the food to the Sleeper passengers.

Also BTW, Cardinal has two consists, not one. So it will need at least two Diners to equip it with full Diner.

The much vaunted "glide path to profitability" of food service as a self standing P&L account, has been laid to rest with Mica and his henchman CFO at Amtrak both gone together with the NEC centric CEO. We'll see how all that impacts service quality and extent of availability as time goes on. Anderson has clearly stated that better food service is a goal, and some of it is already showing. As for how far they will go to improve things, only time will tell.


----------



## Anthony V

cpotisch said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like Amtrak has established a priority list with SM being first, Crescent second, so would LSL be third? SS fourth?
> 
> 
> 
> I would expect the Star to stay diner-less, no matter the equipment available. LSL got diner-lite because of heritage shortages. Cardinal got an even worse diner-lite for simpler operation and no chef (to pay). Equipment permitting, there's no reason to keep the LSL a diner-lite. Cardinal is a bit iffy, but one could make a case to restore it. The Silver Star system eliminates the entire dining car staff, doesn't give sleeper passengers free meals, AND only needs one locomotive. It's terrible for passengers, but is perfect for Amtrak. And there's the good ol' SM as an alternative.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I hate the diner-lite and SS programs, but I think the Star is gonna stay this way.
Click to expand...

There may be more of a push to get a full diner on the Cardinal if efforts to make that train daily move forward. Daily service will double ridership, prompting Amtrak to reinstate full dining service on the Cardinal.


----------



## Anthony V

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like Amtrak has established a priority list with SM being first, Crescent second, so would LSL be third? SS fourth?
> 
> 
> 
> I would expect the Star to stay diner-less, no matter the equipment available. LSL got diner-lite because of heritage shortages. Cardinal got an even worse diner-lite for simpler operation and no chef (to pay). Equipment permitting, there's no reason to keep the LSL a diner-lite. Cardinal is a bit iffy, but one could make a case to restore it. The Silver Star system eliminates the entire dining car staff, doesn't give sleeper passengers free meals, AND only needs one locomotive. It's terrible for passengers, but is perfect for Amtrak. And there's the good ol' SM as an alternative.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I hate the diner-lite and SS programs, but I think the Star is gonna stay this way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> AFAICT Cardinal does not have any real Diner Staff beyond the LSA (unless they have recently added an SA). Mostly the SCAs come in and help out to serve the food to the Sleeper passengers.
> 
> Also BTW, Cardinal has two consists, not one. So it will need at least two Diners to equip it with full Diner.
> 
> The much vaunted "glide path to profitability" of food service as a self standing P&L account, has been laid to rest with Mica and his henchman CFO at Amtrak both gone together with the NEC centric CEO. We'll see how all that impacts service quality and extent of availability as time goes on. Anderson has clearly stated that better food service is a goal, and some of it is already showing. As for how far they will go to improve things, only time will tell.
Click to expand...

There may be more of a push to get a full diner on the Cardinal if efforts to make that train daily move forward. Daily service will double ridership, possibly prompting Amtrak to reinstate full dining service on the Cardinal. This would require three diners because a daily Cardinal would require three train sets according to the 2010 Cardinal PIP.


----------



## cpotisch

Silver Star is daily, a 4 hour longer trip than the Card, and has even worse food service then the Cardinal. The SS being a daily train didn't stop them from removing the diner. I just don't see why making the Card a daily train would cause restoration of diner service. Running 3 diners would cost Amtrak a ton of money, not to mention that they need to get the three diners in the first place. If running two diners doesn't work, 3 will be even more difficult. I do think it's possible that Amtrak would return the diner to 50/51, I just don't think daily service would make it any more appealing for them.


----------



## PVD

They are somewhat unrelated. The unbundling of meals and elimination of the diner on the SS is a financial experiment in response to Congressional pressures. The idea of the diners going onto the Cardinal relates to the potential ridership mix that a daily train would yield, this is believed by may to be a major improvement than its present circumstance.


----------



## jis

Also in this business, past experience, or even current experience gives very little guidance to what will happen in the future, near and far.


----------



## cpotisch

I guess so. I'm not exactly an expert with this kind of thing.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

cpotisch said:


> I guess so. I'm not exactly an expert with this kind of thing.


Neither is Congress, but that doesn't stop them.


----------



## west point

Wish there was a way to reduce F & B losses. Looking at July's MPR the losses amount to about $10 M per month for 1st ten months. How to reduce that is any one's guess ?.


----------



## PVD

How does that compare to prior years? better or worse?


----------



## prewarlionelrailfan

Hi everyone! It's been a year, actually two since I visited the thread... Just wanted to say, what an amazing video by Agent of the Silver Meteor posted on Sept 21st on page 33. I watched it 10x. The train seems to glide by at speed, with clean lines. The Siemens City Sprinter, the fluted coach cars, the viewliner sleepers, and Viewliner II baggage and diner. Awesome. My frustration with Amtrak and CAF made me loose interest in following the production, and I wondered if a consist like this was actually ever going to happen. Delays aside though, that train is a work of art.... and with the diner in tow, perhaps you could say "a moveable feast."


----------



## Shanghai

I was on the Silver Meteor yesterday. We had an old dining car without air conditioning!!


----------



## jis

Maybe it would be OK to replace an old Dining Car without Air-conditioning by a new Dining Car without Air-conditioning


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Maybe it would be OK to replace an old Dining Car without Air-conditioning by a new Dining Car without Air-conditioning


I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## A Voice

jis said:


> Maybe it would be OK to replace an old Dining Car without Air-conditioning by a new Dining Car without Air-conditioning


Turns out all that is required to fix the Viewliner's air conditioning issues was a minor modification to the windows. A shop in Tennessee will be performing the work under contract to CAF:


----------



## Agent

prewarlionelrailfan said:


> ... what an amazing video by Agent of the Silver Meteor posted on Sept 21st on page 33.


I just posted it. I noted it was from the SuperStarRendon channel.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

cpotisch said:


> ... Running 3 diners [on the Card] would cost Amtrak a ton of money, not to mention that they need to get the three diners in the first place. If running two diners doesn't work, 3 will be even more difficult. ...


Even worse. A very convincing report recently claimed that a daily _Cardinal _would require four (4) train sets, not three (3) as suggested in the PRIIA study way back when. Obviously this would need more equipment when Amtrak has no such "more equipment". And it would greatly raise operating expense. Going from the 3-times-a-week schedule to daily, 7-times-a-week, was expected to be cheap. Currently the equipment is not used on the Cardinal on the off days and some crew gets paid for "away days" when they wait for the next train heading home.

But alas, someone claims there's not enuff turnaround time in NYC, with a 10 p.m. arrival Penn Station and a 6:45 morning departure (with too many late trains).

As usual, the solution would be more Amtrak -- and more $ for infrastructure. Indiana worked up a study on upgrading track from Indianapolis to the Illinois state line and running more frequencies of a daily _Hoosier State_. A mere $250 million or so there would take 29 minutes out of the run time. More time will be saved by a planned CREATE project in Chicago, and other upgrades are possible. Figure total time saved CHI-Indy at 1full hour. Push that down the line to NYC, arrive in Penn Station by 9 p.m. and depart 7:45 a.m., giving Sunnyside 2 more hours to turn the train. (I know there could be operating issues, time of stops in midway stations, etc. This proposal is a sketch, not a finished drawing.)

I'd hope that extra time would allow the _Cardinal _to run with only 3 sets of equipment. But it won't be soon.


----------



## west point

Why is it that some posters keep harping on turning train sets to same train service outbound ? If the Cardinal is very late at NYP the Crescent or Meteor set can be substituted for the outbound Cardinal. Of course there will have to be adjustments to consist. Then Cardinal inbound set can make that outbound. The Crescent inbound and outbound at NYP is what 20 hours. ?


----------



## A Voice

west point said:


> Why is it that some posters keep harping on turning train sets to same train service outbound ? If the Cardinal is very late at NYP the Crescent or Meteor set can be substituted for the outbound Cardinal. Of course there will have to be adjustments to consist. Then Cardinal inbound set can make that outbound. The Crescent inbound and outbound at NYP is what 20 hours. ?


The Crescent has virtually a full day (and the Meteor even longer), but it's hardly the only train requiring servicing at Sunnyside each night. You can't do them all at the exact same time. Not saying that it should or should not be possible to make an overnight turn, but that there are considerations other than raw number of hours between arrival and departure.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

west point said:


> Why is it that some posters keep harping on turning train sets to same train service outbound ? If the Cardinal is very late at NYP the Crescent or Meteor set can be substituted for the outbound Cardinal. Of course there will have to be adjustments to consist. Then Cardinal inbound set can make that outbound. The Crescent inbound and outbound at NYP is what 20 hours. ?


I only know what I read in the papers on the blogs. LOL.


----------



## Seaboard92

A Voice said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it would be OK to replace an old Dining Car without Air-conditioning by a new Dining Car without Air-conditioning
> 
> 
> 
> Turns out all that is required to fix the Viewliner's air conditioning issues was a minor modification to the windows. A shop in Tennessee will be performing the work under contract to CAF:
Click to expand...

Are you saying TVRM is doing the modifications?


----------



## A Voice

Seaboard92 said:


> Are you saying TVRM is doing the modifications?


Should I have included the smiley face? 

Presumably, a car with "adjustable open windows" doesn't ever have issues with air conditioning.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

A Voice said:


> Seaboard92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying TVRM is doing the modifications?
> 
> 
> 
> Should I have included the smiley face?
> 
> Presumably, a car with "adjustable open windows" doesn't ever have issues with air conditioning.
Click to expand...

If they slow the train down, how about an open air dining car?


----------



## Steve4031

Would be great on jointed rail...

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Seaboard92

I was actually asking seriously about TVRM as they do have the ability to fabricate parts for car owners and engine owners around the country. And it wouldn't have surprised me if they were doing it.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> I was actually asking seriously about TVRM as they do have the ability to fabricate parts for car owners and engine owners around the country. And it wouldn't have surprised me if they were doing it.


Then the serious answer is "No".


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Columbia hits the road today on 98(29).


----------



## Ziv

It may be happening slowly but the VL2 order is actually happening. I am always forgetting how many are going to eventually be delivered and the names, so I added the list, including the original VL1 Diner, Indianapolis. So 1 VL1 Diner plus 25 VL2 Diners, then, someday, 25 VL2 Sleepers.

Viewliner1 Diner
8400 Indianapolis

Viewliner2 Diners
68000 Albany*
68001 Annapolis
68002 Atlanta
68003 Augusta
68004 Baton Rouge
68005 Boston
68006 Charleston
68007 Columbia
68008 Columbus
68009 Concord
68010 Dover
68011 Frankfort
68012 Harrisburg
68013 Hartford
68014 Jackson
68015 Lansing
68016 Madison
68017 Montgomery
68018 Montpelier
68019 Nashville
68020 Providence
68021 Raleigh
68022 Richmond
68023 Springfield
68024 Tallahassee

* Not sure what is up with the Albany, but I don't think it ever came back from its first showing.





AmtrakLKL said:


> Columbia hits the road today on 98(29).


----------



## Steve4031

Well that's 7 not including Albany and 8400. I suspect the hurricane(s) slowed down the work in Hialeah. Would not surprise me if a couple of batches of 3 or 4 car deliveries moved things along.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

I thought Columbia was skipped in delivery so far, could that be Columbus?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PVD said:


> I thought Columbia was skipped in delivery so far, could that be Columbus?


Both were delivered. Either TR7 forgot his alphabet or they may be skipping Concorde

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

Ok, I thought that the last delivery was just one and not 2 cars. Good to hear.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PVD said:


> Ok, I thought that the last delivery was just one and not 2 cars. Good to hear.


Columbia was delivered with its predecessor. Columbus was delivered solo.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

Got it, thanks.....I'm on the Lake next month, mine is likely to be named "Amdinette" with a 28XXX


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Actually all of the Amfleet II cafes have names, but they were removed.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

Ziv said:


> * Not sure what is up with the Albany, but I don't think it ever came back from its first showing.


What did happened to the Albany, 68000, VL2 diner ? Is it parked somewhere?

Did it fall victim to the Turboliner law suit?


----------



## Ngotwalt

Albany was like a preproduction prototype, it was sent to Amtrak for them to examine and recommend changes. It will likely be the last diner delivered, because in essence CAF has to tear it apart and incorporate all the changes as they put it back together.

Nick


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Charleston, 68006, is on the way to NYP today. Tagging along on the bottom of 98(03).


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakLKL said:


> Charleston, 68006, is on the way to NYP today. Tagging along on the bottom of 98(03).


Deadheading or in service?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charleston, 68006, is on the way to NYP today. Tagging along on the bottom of 98(03).
> 
> 
> 
> Deadheading or in service?
Click to expand...

If "bottom of" means "tail of" then clearly deadheading.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charleston, 68006, is on the way to NYP today. Tagging along on the bottom of 98(03).
> 
> 
> 
> Deadheading or in service?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If "bottom of" means "tail of" then clearly deadheading.
Click to expand...

Correct, 68006 is deadheading on the rear. 68007 is the diner in service.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charleston, 68006, is on the way to NYP today. Tagging along on the bottom of 98(03).
> 
> 
> 
> Deadheading or in service?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If "bottom of" means "tail of" then clearly deadheading.
Click to expand...

Whoops! Only just noticed the "bottom of" part. 

Between V-IIs 68001-68008 and 8400, Amtrak has 9 Viewliner Diners. 4 more and we may well see diners on the LSL! As someone who is taking #48 CHI-NYP in February, I've got my fingers crossed.


----------



## A Voice

The more pertinent question, I'd submit, is just why Charleston is headed for New York. Specifically, something to do with the ongoing AC issues (back to CAF?), perhaps.


----------



## west point

Question was there a Heritage diner or a V-2 diner as the regular diner ? If a regular Heritage probably a return to CAF. If V-2 maybe to NYP to replace one of the Heritage diners consists ?


----------



## A Voice

west point said:


> Question was there a Heritage diner or a V-2 diner as the regular diner ? If a regular Heritage probably a return to CAF. If V-2 maybe to NYP to replace one of the Heritage diners consists ?


See post #739. Diner 68007 is a Viewliner II.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> Question was there a Heritage diner or a V-2 diner as the regular diner ? If a regular Heritage probably a return to CAF. If V-2 maybe to NYP to replace one of the Heritage diners consists ?


Huh? How does the Diner in service have anything to do with why another Diner was being deadheaded? What is it that would disallow a Diner being returned to CAF just because the regular service Diner in the train was a Viewliner?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question was there a Heritage diner or a V-2 diner as the regular diner ? If a regular Heritage probably a return to CAF. If V-2 maybe to NYP to replace one of the Heritage diners consists ?
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? How does the Diner in service have anything to do with why another Diner was being deadheaded? What is it that would disallow a Diner being returned to CAF just because the regular service Diner in the train was a Viewliner?
Click to expand...

I'm thinking he was assuming that if the deadheading car was being moved to replace a Heritage Diner, the train would have had to have an active Viewliner diner, otherwise it would just replace the Heritage Diner in that consist rather than deadheading. While it is possible the car is being moved to replace a Heritage Diner, I doubt it as the Heritage Diner set likely would have been sent to Hialeah in the next few days anyway. Personally, I don't think there is enough to go off of to make a reasonable guess.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## west point

The question is where does Amtrak store its excess Heritage diners ? May already be one at MIA, WASH, NOL so send one or two to NYP ? So the V-2 replaces a Heritage that goes to standby. IMO very good planning to prevent Amfleet-s dinettes ?


----------



## jis

What about the possibility that Charleston is going back to CAF? Have we definitely eliminated that?

The out of service Heritage Diners are mostly hanging out in Hialeah as far as I can tell, until they are moved to their final resting place I suppose. Sunnyside as it is, is so short of space that it is highly unlikely they'd be storing random collection of out of service stuff there.

OTOH, the one of the ways to rotate a Viewliner Diner to Crescent would be via Sunnyside.


----------



## GaSteve

west point said:


> The question is where does Amtrak store its excess Heritage diners ? May already be one at MIA, WASH, NOL so send one or two to NYP ? So the V-2 replaces a Heritage that goes to standby. IMO very good planning to prevent Amfleet-s dinettes ?


There is not a protect diner stored at NOL


----------



## jis

Neither is there any single level Diner stored in Ivy City. No single level LD train terminates or originates in Washington any more so no reason to keep anything there, yet another woefully short of space facility.

NYP in good times has one maybe two, AFAICT. CHI is lucky to have one under unusual circumstances. Yeah, and certainly none in NOL.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ziv said:


> It may be happening slowly but the VL2 order is actually happening. I am always forgetting how many are going to eventually be delivered and the names, so I added the list, including the original VL1 Diner, Indianapolis. So 1 VL1 Diner plus 25 VL2 Diners, then [10 bag-dorms], then someday, 25 VL2 Sleepers.
> 
> Viewliner1 Diner
> 8400 Indianapolis
> 
> Viewliner2 Diners
> 68000 Albany*
> 68001 Annapolis
> 68002 Atlanta
> 68003 Augusta
> 68004 Baton Rouge
> 68005 Boston
> 68006 Charleston
> 68007 Columbia
> 68008 Columbus
> 68009 Concord
> 68010 Dover
> 68011 Frankfort
> 68012 Harrisburg
> 68013 Hartford
> 68014 Jackson
> 68015 Lansing
> 68016 Madison
> 68017 Montgomery
> 68018 Montpelier
> 68019 Nashville
> 68020 Providence
> 68021 Raleigh
> 68022 Richmond
> 68023 Springfield
> 68024 Tallahassee
> 
> * Not sure what is up with the Albany...
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Columbia hits the road today on 98(29).
Click to expand...

Thanks for this list, ZIV.

Special thanks to AmtrakLKL for the good news on Columbia. I don't mind if they come one at a time, as long as they sort of keep coming. LOL.


----------



## pennyk

I am on today's 97 (10/4) with Baton Rouge diner.


----------



## daybeers

pennyk said:


> I am on today's 97 (10/4) with Baton Rouge diner.


How is it, Penny?


----------



## pennyk

daybeers said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am on today's 97 (10/4) with Baton Rouge diner.
> 
> 
> 
> How is it, Penny?
Click to expand...

I think it is lovely. Here is an inside photo.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Does the AC/Venalation work well Penny?


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> Does the AC/Venalation work well Penny?


I was comfortable - seemed to work fine.


----------



## cpotisch

Bob Dylan said:


> Does the AC/Venalation work well Penny?


When I rode 'Atlanta' on 97/98 I didn't notice any problems. Temperature was just right and it was a hot day.

Because of the double windows, a fair number of people were basically using the dining car as an SSL. I've always loved the Heritage diners, and was hoping to get one instead of a V-II, but it was actually great. I'm taking the LSL in February, so once Amtrak receives 68012 'Harrisburg' (their 13th diner including 8400), it'll have a real dining car.


----------



## PVD

That depends on when they show up, and how fast they put them into service, and how they choose to provision protects. But it is certainly worth hoping for...


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the AC/Venalation work well Penny?
> 
> 
> 
> When I rode 'Atlanta' on 97/98 I didn't notice any problems. Temperature was just right and it was a hot day.
> Because of the double windows, a fair number of people were basically using the dining car as an SSL. I've always loved the Heritage diners, and was hoping to get one instead of a V-II, but it was actually great. I'm taking the LSL in February, so once Amtrak receives 68012 'Harrisburg' (their 13th diner including 8400), it'll have a real dining car.
Click to expand...

Was the crew actually allowing people to stay in the car at non-meal times? I was hoping they would because I really like the double window design but the thread I created on the topic about a year ago seemed to have reached a consensus that this would not happen.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## cpotisch

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the AC/Venalation work well Penny?
> 
> 
> 
> When I rode 'Atlanta' on 97/98 I didn't notice any problems. Temperature was just right and it was a hot day.
> 
> Because of the double windows, a fair number of people were basically using the dining car as an SSL. I've always loved the Heritage diners, and was hoping to get one instead of a V-II, but it was actually great. I'm taking the LSL in February, so once Amtrak receives 68012 'Harrisburg' (their 13th diner including 8400), it'll have a real dining car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the crew actually allowing people to stay in the car at non-meal times? I was hoping they would because I really like the double window design but the thread I created on the topic about a year ago seemed to reached a consensus that this would not happen.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app
Click to expand...

The SM crew seemed fine with it.


----------



## jis

In my experience, the Atlantic Coast Service crews have been much more laid back about such things when compared to the LSL crew.


----------



## A Voice

cpotisch said:


> I'm taking the LSL in February, so once Amtrak receives 68012 'Harrisburg' (their 13th diner including 8400), it'll have a real dining car.


How do you know there is a specific number of serviceable Viewliner dining cars which will automatically result in the return of a diner to the _Lake Shore Limited_? That train, together with the _Silver Meteor_ and _Crescent_, require eleven diners (plus spares) to cover all trainsets, but is there a source indicating 13 is the magic number?

Also, was it ever confirmed just where _Charleston_ was headed?


----------



## Acela150

A Voice said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm taking the LSL in February, so once Amtrak receives 68012 'Harrisburg' (their 13th diner including 8400), it'll have a real dining car.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know there is a specific number of serviceable Viewliner dining cars which will automatically result in the return of a diner to the _Lake Shore Limited_? That train, together with the _Silver Meteor_ and _Crescent_, require eleven diners (plus spares) to cover all trainsets, but is there a source indicating 13 is the magic number?
> 
> Also, was it ever confirmed just where _Charleston_ was headed?
Click to expand...

It's just a theory. There isn't any firm evidence on when the Diner will return to the LSL.


----------



## cpotisch

There 11 consists between the SM, Crescent, and LSL. Amtrak would want to keep 2 spares for the 11 diners, hence 13. With the Card and SS, the removal of the dining car was to cut costs. With the LSL, it was due to equipment shortages. Once there are sufficient dining cars, Amtrak is expected to restore diner service.


----------



## PVD

Aside from spares as protects, there is a shop margin for bad ordered cars or routine maintenance. Depending on whether Amtrak wants all Heritage gone ASAP, and where they (Heritage Diners) sit on any costly inspection timing, and how quickly cars that are delivered are placed into service (and their performance thereafter) the number is likely to be higher. Since we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, all we can do is theorize.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Aside from spares as protects, there is a shop margin for bad ordered cars or routine maintenance. Depending on whether Amtrak wants all Heritage gone ASAP, and where they (Heritage Diners) sit on any costly inspection timing, and how quickly cars that are delivered are placed into service (and their performance thereafter) the number is likely to be higher. Since we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle, all we can do is theorize.


It does seem like Amtrak will only reinstate the LSL diner if all the Heritage cars are gone. I will say though, a big reason Amtrak has had to keep so many backup diners in recent years is that Heritage cars constantly need maintenance and repairs. CAF has obviously been super-duper late with the V-IIs, but now that they're here, the cars seem pretty solid and reliable. Once Amtrak is exclusively using Viewliner diners, the necessary shop-count may be a lot lower than with the Heritage fleet.


----------



## PVD

Time will tell, obviously we all share your hope. There will always be a number in for required inspection and interval service, hopefully the unplanned visits will be lower.


----------



## tommylicious

I thought consensus was Trak needs like 100 VL diners before LSL gets one...


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I think the consensus is 99% of AU posters were not aware of Amtraks plans at all.


----------



## OBS

Green Maned Lion said:


> I think the consensus is 99% of AU posters were not aware of Amtraks plans at all.


We just pretend we do....


----------



## WoodyinNYC

tommylicious said:


> I thought consensus was Trak needs like 100 VL diners before LSL gets one...


Are you kidding or confused?

I'm no more sure of exactly how many Viewliner diners Amtrak needs than anyone else. But in round numbers if goes like this: They ordered 25 new ones. Looks like they might get by with fewer if they decided to run Silver Star without any diners forever more. Or perhaps they should order about 10 or 12 more before CAF shuts down the production lines to have enuff to revive the Broadway Ltd (or any East Coast-CHI route). But +/- 25 is the range. Nothing like 100.

The 100 Viewliners figure might stick in your mind from the Sleepers, not diners. In some earlier decade or century, Amtrak said it intended to order 100 Viewliner sleepers. Congress only paid for 50, so it was 50 cars for 10 or 15 years. About 10 years ago, Amtrak ordered 130 new Viewliners, that worked out, so far, to 60 baggage cars, 25 diners, 10 bag-dorms, and 25 Sleepers.

So the 25 CAF sleepers and 10 bag-dorms (with capacity equivalent to 5 sleepers), promised if we live long enuff, plus the 50 already in use, will give the equivalent of 80 VL sleepers in the fleet.

Remembering that the original intention was to order a total of 100 Viewliners for the single-level trains, it seems fair to daydream about ordering another 20 sleepers or so from CAF for even longer trains on existing routes, or for new or revived routes. After all, the equipment would probably pay for itself within a few years. Anyway, Congress will decide.

But barring a new order, we are looking at only 25 more sleepers, and 10 more half sleepers (bag-dorms), to go from a fleet of 50 to 80 full Viewliner sleepers.

Well, I know you couldn't be confused now. (Just kidding. LOL.)


----------



## me_little_me

OBS said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the consensus is 99% of AU posters were not aware of Amtraks plans at all.
> 
> 
> 
> We just pretend we do....
Click to expand...

Actually, since we "know" what Amtrak "should do", we assume Amtrak management is as smart as and as knowledgeable of the situation and needs as we are and therefore should think as we do so common sense says that they will do as we think they should.

Edit: Grammar fix


----------



## Ryan

me_little_me said:


> we assume Amtrak management is as smart as and as knowledgeable of the situation and needs as we are


Amtrak management is significantly more knowledgeable about the situation than any non-employee posting here.


----------



## Brian Battuello

In my now happily retired career, I worked my way up and down several management chains. I learned two important things.

First, the level of management above you has access to a lot more information than you do, and has very different priorities than you think they should have.

Second, despite this advanced level of information and priorities, they still mess things up.

And we're talking relatively sane business management, not government agencies.

p.s. I just had an AmCafe diner meal on the LSL last weekend, and it wasn't great, but it was still a dinner in the diner. Nothing could be finer.


----------



## Thirdrail7

68006 was needed in NY for a training exercise. Once they were done with it, it back into revenue service.


----------



## StriderGDM

Thirdrail7 said:


> 68006 was needed in NY for a training exercise. Once they were done with it, it back into revenue service.


I presume NOT this kind though:


----------



## RPC

My son (goes to University of Delaware right next to NEC) noted that the next day's southbound SM had a Heritage diner tagging along on the back. Implication: 68006 is going on the Crescent?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

RPC said:


> My son (goes to University of Delaware right next to NEC) noted that the next day's southbound SM had a Heritage diner tagging along on the back. Implication: 68006 is going on the Crescent?


Go HENS!


----------



## Ryan

The numbers 27 and 0 come to mind for some reason.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> The numbers 27 and 0 come to mind for some reason.


Oh hush!


----------



## me_little_me

Ryan said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> we assume Amtrak management is as smart as and as knowledgeable of the situation and needs as we are
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak management is significantly more knowledgeable about the situation than any non-employee posting here.
Click to expand...

Sarcasm went over your head, I gather. Sorry.


----------



## Ryan

The problem is that there are a sizable number of people that think that way...


----------



## neroden

Brian Battuello said:


> In my now happily retired career, I worked my way up and down several management chains. I learned two important things.
> 
> First, the level of management above you has access to a lot more information than you do, and has very different priorities than you think they should have.
> 
> Second, despite this advanced level of information and priorities, they still mess things up.


Heh. Nice comment.

I have learned from experience never to assume that professionals actually know more about their own business than I do -- sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

It's pretty obvious that Amtrak's sense of priorities has been... confused... over the years. Perhaps my favorite example was that Claytor, Downs, Warrington, Gunn, Hughes, Kummant, and Crosbie made no efforts towards ADA compliance for the first *25 years* for which the law was in effect -- and Lewis, Reistrup, Boyd, and Claytor largely ignored the Architectural Barriers Act of 1968 for 20 years before that. While I'm sure they had other things on their mind, given that Amtrak attracts a disproportionate percentage of the disabled traveller market, some sort of effort to try to start complying would have been both financially and politically sound, as well as legally sound. Boardman was the first to get his priorities straight.



> And we're talking relatively sane business management, not government agencies.
> 
> p.s. I just had an AmCafe diner meal on the LSL last weekend, and it wasn't great, but it was still a dinner in the diner. Nothing could be finer.


Can't eat it because I've spent four years trying to get them to divulge ingredients lists, which is ridiculous, since this should be a trivial thing to do. I'm writing to the President and Board tomorrow (Post Office is closed today).


----------



## Big Iron

AmtrakBlue said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers 27 and 0 come to mind for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh hush!
Click to expand...

Rocco has the Hens pointed in the right direction. As a grad of another CAA school I can say I'm glad that UD will be back in the mix soon. I've enjoyed many great JMU-UD games over the years, especially during the Flacco era. Ask Ryan if the numbers 26 and 16 ring any bells


----------



## JayPea

The numbers I like are "2011" and "20" and "19".


----------



## Big Iron

JayPea said:


> The numbers I like are "2011" and "20" and "19".


I can see why. Mine is 2017 and 28 and 14.


----------



## cpotisch

What connection does



Big Iron said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers I like are "2011" and "20" and "19".
> 
> 
> 
> I can see why. Mine is 2017 and 28 and 14.
Click to expand...

What connection does this have to Viewliners?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> What connection does
> 
> 
> 
> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers I like are "2011" and "20" and "19".
> 
> 
> 
> I can see why. Mine is 2017 and 28 and 14.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What connection does this have to Viewliners?
Click to expand...

The thread has derailed...that's the only connection.


----------



## daybeers

cpotisch said:


> Big Iron said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> 
> The numbers I like are "2011" and "20" and "19".
> 
> 
> 
> I can see why. Mine is 2017 and 28 and 14.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What connection does this have to Viewliners?
Click to expand...

There isn't one. I think they're talking about the scores of University of Delaware football games.


----------



## Ngotwalt

I will rerail this topic, I have heard of or seen eye witness accounts of Indianapolis, Charleston, and Columbia being in service. Additionally I have heard at least Boston, Baton Rouge, and Augusta are also currently in service, we may be close to seeing enough VDs (I know, terrible abbreviation) take over the Crescent.

Cheers,

Nick


----------



## cpotisch

Haven't seen Atlanta in a while, though I was on it on back in June (SM). Based on youtube videos and testimony on this forum. I know that Annapolis, Columbia, Baton Rouge, and Indianapolis are currently on the SM. Augusta and Boston seem to be on the Crescent.


----------



## A Voice

Per the October update over at On-Track-On-Line, there are now just eight Heritage dining cars still in service, and (at least on paper) also eight Viewliner II dining cars available.

Open question is just now many of the Viewliners are actually serviceable at any given moment.


----------



## cpotisch

What did happen to Atlanta? Haven't seen it anywhere in the past two months.


----------



## pennyk

Charleston diner is on today's (10/12/17) 98. (as an aside, 98 has had some bad luck today. We are dwelling somewhere in Seminole County waiting for a new crew since our crew timed out. There was a CSX freight derailment south of Sebring that delayed 98 into Sebring, and other central Florida cities. We departed Orlando 4:55 late.)


----------



## Steve4031

pennyk said:


> Charleston diner is on today's (10/12/17) 98. (as an aside, 98 has had some bad luck today. We are dwelling somewhere in Seminole County waiting for a new crew since our crew timed out. There was a CSX freight derailment south of Sebring that delayed 98 into Sebring, and other central Florida cities. We departed Orlando 4:55 late.)


You get more train ride for your money.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Bob Dylan

pennyk said:


> Charleston diner is on today's (10/12/17) 98. (as an aside, 98 has had some bad luck today. We are dwelling somewhere in Seminole County waiting for a new crew since our crew timed out. There was a CSX freight derailment south of Sebring that delayed 98 into Sebring, and other central Florida cities. We departed Orlando 4:55 late.)


#98 now shown as 6+ Hours down in Deland. How far are you going Penny?


----------



## pennyk

Bob Dylan said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charleston diner is on today's (10/12/17) 98. (as an aside, 98 has had some bad luck today. We are dwelling somewhere in Seminole County waiting for a new crew since our crew timed out. There was a CSX freight derailment south of Sebring that delayed 98 into Sebring, and other central Florida cities. We departed Orlando 4:55 late.)
> 
> 
> 
> #98 now shown as 6+ Hours down in Deland. How far are you going Penny?
Click to expand...

I am going to NYC for the Autumn Express, so no connection issues for me. I think the lunch I did not get today, I will get tomorrow. There is a great crew on the train and I am enjoying the ride. I will see some cities in daylight that I ordinarily do not see on 98. It is almost like taking a different train (an early 92 on the A line).


----------



## pennyk

Steve4031 said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charleston diner is on today's (10/12/17) 98. (as an aside, 98 has had some bad luck today. We are dwelling somewhere in Seminole County waiting for a new crew since our crew timed out. There was a CSX freight derailment south of Sebring that delayed 98 into Sebring, and other central Florida cities. We departed Orlando 4:55 late.)
> 
> 
> 
> You get more train ride for your money.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...


----------



## cpotisch

pennyk said:


> Charleston diner is on today's (10/12/17) 98. (as an aside, 98 has had some bad luck today. We are dwelling somewhere in Seminole County waiting for a new crew since our crew timed out. There was a CSX freight derailment south of Sebring that delayed 98 into Sebring, and other central Florida cities. We departed Orlando 4:55 late.)


You were on 98 with Charleston?


----------



## pennyk

cpotisch said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Charleston diner is on today's (10/12/17) 98. (as an aside, 98 has had some bad luck today. We are dwelling somewhere in Seminole County waiting for a new crew since our crew timed out. There was a CSX freight derailment south of Sebring that delayed 98 into Sebring, and other central Florida cities. We departed Orlando 4:55 late.)
> 
> 
> 
> You were on 98 with Charleston?
Click to expand...

yes. Thursday's (10/12) Silver Meteor.


----------



## sechs

Does anyone have any new information on topic?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

sechs said:


> Does anyone have any new information on topic?


In other words, are we there yet? :giggle:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Looks like I was the last one to ask, are we there yet?

I hope everyone understands that I was joking off the previous post.

(My reply was posted the same day. Don't know why I can't get it to format properly here.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That said, I don't mind dribbles of info from Thirdrail7, AmtrakLKL, or anyone. I'm glad to hear that Columbus is out on the rails. I'm eagerly awaiting news of the Concord and Dover. And I don't mind de-crypting -- after all, I'm waiting anyway. LOL.


----------



## MARC Rider

When I got off 67 this morning (10/17/17) in Washington, 98 was on the other side of the platform with Charleston diner in the consist.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Columbus, 68008, has been released into the wild. Currently somewhere between Miami and Hollywood.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

MARC Rider said:


> When I got off 67 this morning (10/17/17) in Washington, 98 was on the other side of the platform with Charleston diner in the consist.


I passed that same train on 91 just south of Kissimmee yesterday afternoon.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Asking for new information is pointless. Those who will share will do so immediately. Those who dont want to share will not be prompted by asking.


----------



## Steve4031

If you want up to date info of the number of cars in service you have to scroll through the posts.

I'm that it would be a good idea to have a sticky with a list of cars delivered and cars in service.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Bob Dylan

What happened to Austin, a Capital City that actually has Amtrak Service even if the Eagles are Superliner equipped?

I count 9 Capital Cities on the list that have Zero Amtrak Service!


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> What happened to Austin, a Capital that actually has Amtrak Service even if the Eagles are Superliner equipped?
> 
> I count 9 Capitola on the list that have Zero Amtrak Service!


Austin is not a Capital of an Eastern State in which Viewliners operate.

Besides, who would want to have anything to do with Texas anyway?


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to Austin, a Capital that actually has Amtrak Service even if the Eagles are Superliner equipped?
> 
> I count 9 Capitola on the list that have Zero Amtrak Service!
> 
> 
> 
> Austin is not a Capital of an Eastern State in which Viewliners operate.
> Besides, who would want to have anything to do with Texas anyway?
Click to expand...

I know, just tongue in cheek!


----------



## Palmland

I concur that Texas is a great state - far more prosperous and contributing to the national economy than most. But what I really like is the train in center field and whistle when the Astros hit a home run.


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to Austin, a Capital that actually has Amtrak Service even if the Eagles are Superliner equipped?
> 
> I count 9 Capitola on the list that have Zero Amtrak Service!
> 
> 
> 
> Austin is not a Capital of an Eastern State in which Viewliners operate.
> Besides, who would want to have anything to do with Texas anyway?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know, just tongue in cheek!( And 35 million people, with more arriving daily, make it seem a desirable place to live, even if the government sucks and half of the 35 million are deplorables!)
Click to expand...

Oooh, looks like a bit of rawness was struck, eh? No you don't have to defend Texas I like it, but it is you that says bad things about other places every chance you get  So this was just a minor payback


----------



## Thirdrail7

Green Maned Lion said:


> Asking for new information is pointless. Those who will share will do so immediately. Those who dont want to share will not be prompted by asking.


I wouldn't go that far. I can reference some upcoming things with my usual type posts but I haven't because I didn't want to read the complaints. If you're interested in my usual "cryptic" delivery, it can be arranged. h34r:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Asking for new information is pointless. Those who will share will do so immediately. Those who dont want to share will not be prompted by asking.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't go that far. I can reference some upcoming things with my usual type posts but I haven't because I didn't want to read the complaints. If you're interested in my usual "cryptic" delivery, it can be arranged. h34r:
Click to expand...

I'm waiting with baited breath.  And now that Steve has started a "just the facts" thread, bomb away with your cryptic deliveries.


----------



## KnightRail

Thirdrail7 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Asking for new information is pointless. Those who will share will do so immediately. Those who dont want to share will not be prompted by asking.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't go that far. I can reference some upcoming things with my usual type posts but I haven't because I didn't want to read the complaints. If you're interested in my usual "cryptic" delivery, it can be arranged. h34r:
Click to expand...

There is bound to be whining and complaining regardless. The squeaky wheels will make noise while the silent majority will appreciate the effort. Availability appears better than it has been.


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to Austin, a Capital that actually has Amtrak Service even if the Eagles are Superliner equipped?
> 
> I count 9 Capitola on the list that have Zero Amtrak Service!
> 
> 
> 
> Austin is not a Capital of an Eastern State in which Viewliners operate.
> Besides, who would want to have anything to do with Texas anyway?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know, just tongue in cheek!( And 35 million people, with more arriving daily, make it seem a desirable place to live, even if the government sucks and half of the 35 million are deplorables!)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oooh, looks like a bit of rawness was struck, eh? No you don't have to defend Texas I like it, but it is you that says bad things about other places every chance you get  So this was just a minor payback
Click to expand...

Touche!


----------



## GaSteve

Bob Dylan said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> What happened to Austin, a Capital that actually has Amtrak Service even if the Eagles are Superliner equipped?
> 
> I count 9 Capitola on the list that have Zero Amtrak Service!
> 
> 
> 
> Austin is not a Capital of an Eastern State in which Viewliners operate.
> Besides, who would want to have anything to do with Texas anyway?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know, just tongue in cheek!( And 35 million people, with more arriving daily, make it seem a desirable place to live, even if the government sucks and half of the 35 million are deplorables!)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oooh, looks like a bit of rawness was struck, eh? No you don't have to defend Texas I like it, but it is you that says bad things about other places every chance you get  So this was just a minor payback
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Touche!
Click to expand...

The criteria for the names is capitol cities east of the Mississippi, regardless of whether they have Amtrak service.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Asking for new information is pointless. Those who will share will do so immediately. Those who dont want to share will not be prompted by asking.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't go that far. I can reference some upcoming things with my usual type posts but I haven't because I didn't want to read the complaints. If you're interested in my usual "cryptic" delivery, it can be arranged. h34r:
Click to expand...







In other news:


----------



## Ngotwalt

Come on Thirdrail 7, by the book...

Nick


----------



## StriderGDM

Ngotwalt said:


> Come on Thirdrail 7, by the book...
> 
> Nick


The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have diners for six "days". Sleeper power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible, in two "days". By the book, Admiral.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Thirdrail7 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Asking for new information is pointless. Those who will share will do so immediately. Those who dont want to share will not be prompted by asking.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't go that far. I can reference some upcoming things with my usual type posts but I haven't because I didn't want to read the complaints. If you're interested in my usual "cryptic" delivery, it can be arranged. h34r:
Click to expand...

Me personally? I don't actually care. Que sera sera. The cars will arrive when they arrive, and no amount of bloviation by me is gonna change that. That being said, I don't mind cryptic posts. There a lot more fun than listening the are we there yets or the how dare you be cryptics.


----------



## Thirdrail7

This post is brought to you by:




I can think of something that starts with that letter:







Can you name some other things? h34r:


----------



## Ryan

That seems to skip a few exits...


----------



## neroden

Sesame Street is generally brought to you by a letter *and* a number.

Perchance is this coming episode brought to us by the letter H and the number 2?


----------



## neroden

GaSteve said:


> The criteria for the names is capitol cities east of the Mississippi, regardless of whether they have Amtrak service.


With Saint Paul, Trenton, and Washington awaiting a future order, I suppose. 

Or perhaps Saint Paul was excluded because Amtrak is a government organization and must not be entangled with religion.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

neroden said:


> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> The criteria for the names is capitol cities east of the Mississippi, regardless of whether they have Amtrak service.
> 
> 
> 
> With Saint Paul, Trenton, and Washington awaiting a future order, I suppose.
> Or perhaps Saint Paul was excluded because Amtrak is a government organization and must not be entangled with religion.
Click to expand...

It is kind of weird that those cities were excluded since they all have Amtrak service. Washington is obviously different from a state capital, so I can see why that was excluded. Minnesota is primarily west of the Mississippi River and the eastbound EB crosses back to the west side of it for a period before turning east towards Chicago. Trenton is a little harder to explain. Maybe Amtrak did not want to be associated with New Jersey, let alone Trenton?[emoji6] 
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## MikefromCrete

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GaSteve said:
> 
> 
> 
> The criteria for the names is capitol cities east of the Mississippi, regardless of whether they have Amtrak service.
> 
> 
> 
> With Saint Paul, Trenton, and Washington awaiting a future order, I suppose.
> Or perhaps Saint Paul was excluded because Amtrak is a government organization and must not be entangled with religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is kind of weird that those cities were excluded since they all have Amtrak service. Washington is obviously different from a state capital, so I can see why that was excluded. Minnesota is primarily west of the Mississippi River and the eastbound EB crosses back to the west side of it for a period before turning east towards Chicago. Trenton is a little harder to explain. Maybe Amtrak did not want to be associated with New Jersey, let alone Trenton?[emoji6]
> Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app
Click to expand...

Since there's only 25 diners in the order, Trenton did not make the cut. If more are ordered, it will obviously be included. Minnesota is probably considered west of the Mississippi. Washington is the national capital, not a state capital. It's not that hard to understand.


----------



## stappend

I'll be optimistic, maybe there are four or five being delivered.


----------



## cpotisch

So is Columbus in service or is it just deadheading?


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Austin is not a Capital of an Eastern State in which Viewliners operate.
> 
> Besides, who would want to have anything to do with Texas anyway?


When I was in the military stationed in NM, our job was to protect the United States from the Barbarians in the east. Those were the people in the state to the east of us. :giggle: We were invaded many times but we never allowed them past Ruidoso,

If God wanted Texans to ski, He would have given them a mountain - so say those of us from NM.

God wanted Texans to ski. That's why He gave them Ruidoso - so say the Texans. And that's why it was so hard to push them back across the border.

And, no, it was not prior to 1845. :blush:

Uh! Oh! Off-topic again.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

The Viewliner cars have names of states were single level Amtrak operates, mainly east of Mississippi.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> So is Columbus in service or is it just deadheading?


http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/69487-viewliner-ii-part-2-production-and-delivery/?p=727683

I take that to mean it's in service.


----------



## cpotisch

Based on recent youtube videos and testimony on this thread, these seem to be the routes the respective diners are running on (with the most recent sighting).

Silver Meteor:

Annapolis - October 7

Columbia - October 8

Baton Rouge - October 4

Indianapolis - October 13

Charleston - October 17

Columbus October 

Crescent:

Augusta - October 12

Boston - October 4

What's confusing is that there are only four SM consists, but 6 recent diners.


----------



## Thirdrail7

neroden said:


> Sesame Street is generally brought to you by a letter *and* a number.
> 
> Perchance is this coming episode brought to us by the letter H and the number 2?


Thanks for filling in the blanks.



cpotisch said:


> Based on recent youtube videos and testimony on this thread, these seem to be the routes the respective diners are running on (with the most recent sighting).
> 
> Silver Meteor:
> 
> Annapolis - October 7
> 
> Columbia - October 8
> 
> Baton Rouge - October 4
> 
> Indianapolis - October 13
> 
> Charleston - October 17
> 
> Columbus October
> 
> Crescent:
> 
> Augusta - October 12
> 
> Boston - October 4
> 
> What's confusing is that there are only four SM consists, but 6 recent diners.


What is confusing you?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Based on recent youtube videos and testimony on this thread, these seem to be the routes the respective diners are running on (with the most recent sighting).
> 
> Silver Meteor:
> 
> Annapolis - October 7
> 
> Columbia - October 8
> 
> Baton Rouge - October 4
> 
> Indianapolis - October 13
> 
> Charleston - October 17
> 
> Columbus October
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent:
> 
> Augusta - October 12
> 
> Boston - October 4
> 
> 
> 
> What's confusing is that there are only four SM consists, but 6 recent diners.


What makes you believe that cars in consist are never changed out?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I have endeavored to give you an argument, Sir. I have not and will not endeavor to give youvamd understanding. Dr. Samuel Johnson.


----------



## Anthony V

Now if only Amtrak could start service to the state capitals that some of these diners are named after and that currently don't have service (Columbus, Baton Rouge, Nashville, Tallahassee, Montgomery, etc). lol


----------



## cpotisch

I'm sorry. I should I have been a lot clearer. What I meant is that I wonder why Amtrak has been constantly cycling diners on the Meteor recently. Those cars aren't being seen on the Crescent, so clearly many cars are being taken out of service for short bouts. This might indicate reliability issues.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Anthony V said:


> Now if only Amtrak could start service to the state capitals that some of these diners are named after and that currently don't have service (Columbus, Baton Rouge, Nashville, Tallahassee, Montgomery, etc). lol


Tallahassee will get service if/when the City of New Orleans sends a few cars down to Orlando. I'm afraid the dearth of equipment following the Nippon-Sharyo crash test debacle may delay this.

Louisiana has the studies for Baton Rouge-New Orleans, but lacks the will to put money into it. The case will be stronger if/when service starts New Orleans-Biloxi-Mobile. (See above.)

Ohio was offered $400 million or so in Stimulus funding to serve Columbus (Cleveland and Cincinnati, too), but CSX persuaded John Kasich to oppose it in his winning campaign for governor. Now the 3-C's route is remembered as a failure. Probably better to try another route next time, like Cleveland-Toledo-CHI, or Columbus-Ft Wayne-CHI, or even Cincinnati-Indianapolis-CHI before trying to revive the 3-C roadkill.

Mongomery-Birmingham seems a sure thing, soon as the pigs fly out of the state capitol. But Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-Biloxi-New Orleans has failed twice before because the three-state partnership had no loyalty. Birmingham-Montgomery-Dothan AL-Tallahassee-Jacksonville-Orlando might work better with only two states as partners. That Florida route contains two in-state segments that should support corridor service.

Now, to get the train to Birmingham to start toward Florida (or New Orleans), hmmmn. The Chattanooga Choo Choo could run NYC-D.C.-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Birmingham, that's a way. Splitting the Crescent at Birmingham could be another (but splitting the Crescent at Meridien for Dallas-Ft Worth sort of competes with this idea). A second train NYC-Atlanta via Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte-ATL-Birmingham-Montgomery might work. Or CHI-Indianapolis-Louisville-Nashville-Birmingham-Montgomery could work too, but that Nashville-Louisville-Midwest segment is a main line for CSX.

So lessee. Nashville-Louisville, hostile host. Nashville-Knoxville, too much abandoned trackage. Nashville-Chattanooga, detour required. Nashville-Birmingham, hostile host. Nashville-Memphis is doable. But where do Tennesseeans want to go from Nashville and Memphis? To metropolitan Little Rock? That's a tough sell.

Moving on. Annapolis looks to lie about 30 miles from BWI on the NEC or Baltimore Penn Station. Dover likewise is served by Wilmington. Concord sits between the Vermonter's route and the Downeaster, some 70 miles either way on good roads.

Looking at the glass as half full, thanks to the Stimulus funding we will soon see service improve on the Cascades to Olympia, the Lincoln Service to Springfield, the Blue Water to Lansing, the Piedmonts to Raleigh, the Springfield Shuttles to Hartford, and the several trains on the Empire Corridor to Albany. If we only had another $10 or $12 Billion of Stimulus to invest!


----------



## A Voice

WoodyinNYC said:


> Nashville-Chattanooga, detour required.


Just for the sake of argument while we're dreaming, the CSX line is about as direct as you're going to get between Nashville and Chattanooga. Why would you need to detour (and where)?



> If we only had another $10 or $12 Billion of Stimulus to invest!


If Congress could only stop playing politics for five minutes and actually advance the administration's agenda and pass legislation, we could yet see benefits from an infrastructure bill. Don't hold your breath, though.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> I'm sorry. I should I have been a lot clearer. What I meant is that I wonder why Amtrak has been constantly cycling diners on the Meteor recently. Those cars aren't being seen on the Crescent, so clearly many cars are being taken out of service for short bouts. This might indicate reliability issues.


That has been standard operating procedure since the first viewliner bags rolled off the line. Their main mechanical base is on the Meteor's route so when they initial enter service, they stay on the route during the break in period. The 68001-68005 and the 8400 have all been used on the Crescent.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry. I should I have been a lot clearer. What I meant is that I wonder why Amtrak has been constantly cycling diners on the Meteor recently. Those cars aren't being seen on the Crescent, so clearly many cars are being taken out of service for short bouts. This might indicate reliability issues.
> 
> 
> 
> That has been standard operating procedure since the first viewliner bags rolled off the line. Their main mechanical base is on the Meteor's route so when they initial enter service, they stay on the route during the break in period. The 68001-68005 and the 8400 have all been used on the Crescent.
Click to expand...

Got it. Thanks


----------



## WoodyinNYC

A Voice said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nashville-Chattanooga, detour required.
> 
> 
> 
> ... the CSX line is about as direct as you're going to get between Nashville and Chattanooga.
Click to expand...

Sorry. I misremembered the route as more L-shaped than it is. (Maybe I was thinking that Nashville-Knoxville would require a detour thru Chattanooga, as it would in fact.)

Still, there is that amusing detour into Alabama for what, 5 or 10 miles or so.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Another day, another odd non-diner sleeper meal. It happened to be convenient to get home via the 449/64 combo (Boston/Albany/Croton). Since I have more miles than sense, I picked up a sleeper in Boston. The free sleeper lunch was service from the cafe car. I had my choice of one "entree" i.e. Amburger, wrap or pizza, one snack and one drink. I sprung $7.50 for a decent Stone IPA. The cafe was a combined business/cafe car so only had about 6 usable tables after the conductors spread out all their stuff. Probably should have taken it back to my room and let the coach passengers use them.

Very nice autumn leaves, especially around Pittsfield at sunset. I keep forgetting how pretty the streams along that route are as well.

Still haven't been in a new diner other than 8400. Headed down to Orlando in a few weeks, maybe then.


----------



## PVD

Since the diner is on the NY section, the Boston section receives lunch service in the cafe car. The split car is used because the BC is sold. When the sections were not joined in Albany, and the Boston leg was a stub with no sleeper, the BC section was a respite (usually) for the sleeper passengers until Albany


----------



## JoeBas

And since there's not enough damned diners at this point, the New York section gets a Cafe now too. Yay Egalitarianism!


----------



## tommylicious

I will not ride any LD Amtrak train which doesn't have a proper diner car with cooked to order food.


----------



## jis

tommylicious said:


> I will not ride any LD Amtrak train which doesn't have a proper diner car with cooked to order food.


Which would suggest that you won't be riding any Amtrak train



Since afterall there is no Amtrak train at present that really serves cooked to order food



Some are better at making it look like they are, than the others.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will not ride any LD Amtrak train which doesn't have a proper diner car with cooked to order food.
> 
> 
> 
> Which would suggest that you won't be riding any Amtrak train
> 
> 
> 
> Since afterall there is no Amtrak train at present that really serves cooked to order food
> 
> 
> 
> Some are better at making it look like they are, than the others.
Click to expand...

Aren't the scrambled eggs and omelettes cooked to order?


----------



## jis

Yeah, just a few things. Most things are just reheated and served. Even the things cooked to order are basically prepackaged in a form that for each order a package is opened and cooked, with a few limited permitted variations, rather than items being prepared separately and uniquely allowing much more choice.


----------



## me_little_me

Brian Battuello said:


> The cafe was a combined business/cafe car so only had about 6 usable tables after the conductors spread out all their stuff. Probably should have taken it back to my room and let the coach passengers use them.


No, You needn't do that if management and the crew don't care enough to follow the rules or treat passengers like paying customers.


----------



## PVD

When the LSL is crowded, the split car is inadequate as a working lounge even with all tables available. Lack of any space to sit and relax outside of table space is a major deficiency of all of Amtrak's single level LD trains. Even if they fixed the crew occupying space issue, the atmosphere would be lacking.


----------



## pennyk

Baton Rouge is on today's (10/26/17) 98.


----------



## cpotisch

I know I mentioned it before, but I haven't seen Atlanta in three months. Do we have any ideas about what happened to it?


----------



## pennyk

pennyk said:


> Baton Rouge is on today's (10/26/17) 98.


I understand that Baton Rouge is on today's (10/28/17) 97.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Why are we following one fahrkakta diner?


----------



## AmtrakLKL

cpotisch said:


> I know I mentioned it before, but I haven't seen Atlanta in three months. Do we have any ideas about what happened to it?


Atlanta has been enjoying a vacation in Hialeah for a spell, as you have noted. There has been some recent movement through the yard, so it may be returning to service soon.

Interestingly, it has been almost a week since a Heritage diner was last in service on 20(22). I suspect we'll see a random trip here and there until more VL IIs are delivered, but not many.


----------



## cpotisch

These are the current routes for the respective V-II Diners, based on their most recent sightings.

Silver Meteor:

Columbia - October 28

Baton Rouge - October 26

Charleston - October 17

Columbus - October 29

Crescent:

Augusta - October 12

Boston - October 28

Indianapolis - October 28

Annapolis - October 27


----------



## PVD

I'm on the LSL (48/6) I'll have 28XXX which possibly used to have a name......


----------



## cpotisch

Anyone have any info on when 68009 is due?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

cpotisch said:


> Anyone have any info on when 68009 is due?


Are we there yet? LOL.

No, srsly, if anyone had info, it would get posted.

When the due date is known, expect an eruption

of posts until the new diner reaches Hialeah.

You won't miss it.


----------



## tommylicious

PVD said:


> I'm on the LSL (48/6) I'll have 28XXX which possibly used to have a name......


is this a diner lite or a heritage?


----------



## jis

tommylicious said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on the LSL (48/6) I'll have 28XXX which possibly used to have a name......
> 
> 
> 
> is this a diner lite or a heritage?
Click to expand...

Amfleet II Diner Lite. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## A Voice

cpotisch said:


> Anyone have any info on when 68009 is due?


With the Viewliner diners now apparently expected out of sequence, it's going to be hard to predict just when 68009 or any other individual car might see the light of day.


----------



## tommylicious

jis said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm on the LSL (48/6) I'll have 28XXX which possibly used to have a name......
> 
> 
> 
> is this a diner lite or a heritage?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Amfleet II Diner Lite.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Oy...I refuse to ride the LSL (or any LD route) that doesn't have a proper full diner.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Sir, you are repeating yourself.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I'm "hearing" on FB that 2 more are being picked up today. Don't know which ones.


----------



## Thirdrail7

If you have time on the 1st, I suppose you can verify if Ryan's post is correct.....Fleet One!

If you miss, I guess Fleet 2 can check things on the 2nd.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> If you have time on the 1st, I suppose you can verify if Ryan's post is correct.....Fleet One!
> 
> If you miss, I guess Fleet 2 can check things on the 2nd.


[emoji1303][emoji1303]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakLKL said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know I mentioned it before, but I haven't seen Atlanta in three months. Do we have any ideas about what happened to it?
> 
> 
> 
> Atlanta has been enjoying a vacation in Hialeah for a spell, as you have noted. There has been some recent movement through the yard, so it may be returning to service soon.
Click to expand...

It is on the way  to meet with Jis and Anderson


----------



## neroden

I'm getting the feeling that the LSL won't have diners on my trip *to* the NARP meeting -- tonight -- and that it won't have diners on my trip *back from* the NARP meeting either -- a week fom now. Sigh. Maybe my Thanksgiving trip?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

neroden said:


> I'm getting the feeling that the LSL won't have diners on my trip *to* the NARP meeting -- tonight -- and that it won't have diners on my trip *back from* the NARP meeting either -- a week fom now. Sigh. Maybe my Thanksgiving trip?


Maybe Atlanta will be on one of them.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## dlagrua

Some good news here as the Viewliner diners trickle out of CAF. Does anyone know what happened to the baggage dorms that were returned to CAF for not meeting specs?


----------



## cpotisch

These are the current routes for the respective V-II Diners, based on their most recent sightings.

Silver Meteor:

Columbia - October 28

Baton Rouge - October 26

Charleston - October 17

Columbus - October 29

Crescent:

Augusta - October 12

Boston - October 30

Indianapolis - October 29

Annapolis - October 27


----------



## twropr

Today (Oct. 31) Harrisburg 68012 and Hartford 68013 were released from CAF. Don't know what happened to 68009 thru 68011.

Andy


----------



## WoodyinNYC

twropr said:


> Today, October 31, *Harrisburg* and *Hartford* were released from CAF!!!


There, fixed it for you. LOL.

For those who missed the previous post.




Great news.

Concord and Dover will be gratefully received at a later date.


----------



## neroden

OK. Now, for some reason, they have to visit Florida before going into service. With Atlanta released from Florida, Harrisburg and Hartford should provide enough to finally restore the LSL diner.

Here's hopeing Hialeah can move fast and they'll have it back by next Tuesday when I'm returning from Chicago. It would be nice to get an entire omelette instead of the sad approximation of one which they have on the substitute service. But I'm not expecting it. :-(


----------



## fulham

For anyone attending the big NARP meeting/convention this weekend in Chicago, finding out about the status of the CAF diners needs to be a priority. With the number of Amtrak people in attendance, a question regarding the HVAC issues would be in order, as would a question regarding the status of the new diners relating to the LSL. With all the new diners being delivered find out how many of them can actually be used on a day in/day out basis, and how many of them are still being "tweaked" to make them day in/day out pieces of equipment. Maybe an answer can finally be determined about the mysteries of the CAF diners.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Good suggestion!

And as well, the Bag-Dorms and the Not in our Lifetime Sleepers!


----------



## Thirdrail7

twropr said:


> Today (Oct. 31) Harrisburg 68012 and Hartford 68013 were released from CAF. Don't know what happened to 68009 thru 68011.
> 
> Andy


As indicated in September, they are out of sequence. They were not expected.



WoodyinNYC said:


> twropr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today, October 31, *Harrisburg* and *Hartford* were released from CAF!!!
> 
> 
> 
> There, fixed it for you. LOL.
> 
> For those who missed the previous post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great news.
> 
> Concord and Dover will be gratefully received at a later date.
Click to expand...

Don't forget Frankford!







neroden said:


> OK. Now, for some reason, they have to visit Florida before going into service. With Atlanta released from Florida, Harrisburg and Hartford should provide enough to finally restore the LSL diner.
> 
> Here's hopeing Hialeah can move fast and they'll have it back by next Tuesday when I'm returning from Chicago. It would be nice to get an entire omelette instead of the sad approximation of one which they have on the substitute service. But I'm not expecting it. :-(


We explained why they go to Florida. There are still Amtrak mods that need to occur. At any rate, there is zero chance of one being on the Lake Shore by next week. Remember. as the heritage diners reach their dates, they are being mothballed. Another one just ran out of time last week. There needs to be a sufficient amount of spares to reliably equip another train.


----------



## jis

fulham said:


> For anyone attending the big NARP meeting/convention this weekend in Chicago, finding out about the status of the CAF diners needs to be a priority. With the number of Amtrak people in attendance, a question regarding the HVAC issues would be in order, as would a question regarding the status of the new diners relating to the LSL. With all the new diners being delivered find out how many of them can actually be used on a day in/day out basis, and how many of them are still being "tweaked" to make them day in/day out pieces of equipment. Maybe an answer can finally be determined about the mysteries of the CAF diners.


Past experience shows that one can ask questions until the cows come home, but any answer will materialize if at all, at the time that is of their convenience. I have very low expectations of learning anything substantially new, though I will pose the question at any opportune moment as I have done before. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Im not sure what the point of attending such meeting is. They seem to me to mostly be a waste of time.


----------



## neroden

I am documenting further attempts to personally communicate with Amtrak management about the ingredients list issue. If they still do nothing after that it is more evidence of my good faith in an ADA lawsuit.


----------



## neroden

So Amtrak has now downgraded the LSL dining to where I can literally eat nothing... They no longer have plain eggs. I am rather busy for the next couple of months. If Amtrak has not started providing ingredients by then, I guess it will be federal lawsuit time. Sigh. This is such a stuiply easy thing to fix that it should not take a federal case.


----------



## cpotisch

Why are CAF producing the diners out of order?


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> Im not sure what the point of attending such meeting is. They seem to me to mostly be a waste of time.


Similar to spending time in AU?





More seriously, actually I go to these meetings for basically the same reason that I come to web forums like AU. Partly socializing, partly foraging for information, occasionally trying to make a few people see things my way, and in addition having a few good meals and drinks in the company of people I enjoy being with, and an occasional ride on a train or two either will the group or on my own thrown in for good measure, and while at it collecting a few AGR points and United miles and such too





There is something to be said about face to face meetings instead of via fingering the keyboard and talking to disemboweled voices over the phone.


----------



## JoeBas

jis said:


> There is something to be said about face to face meetings instead of via fingering the keyboard and talking to disemboweled voices over the phone.


I hope you meant "Disembodied", unless you're really REALLLLLLY good at the Washington Power game.


----------



## A Voice

fulham said:


> For anyone attending the big NARP meeting/convention this weekend in Chicago, finding out about the status of the CAF diners needs to be a priority. With the number of Amtrak people in attendance, a question regarding the HVAC issues would be in order, as would a question regarding the status of the new diners relating to the LSL. With all the new diners being delivered find out how many of them can actually be used on a day in/day out basis, and how many of them are still being "tweaked" to make them day in/day out pieces of equipment. Maybe an answer can finally be determined about the mysteries of the CAF diners.


While I wouldn't expect to learn anything substantial regardless, I'd be more interested in what comes next; The Viewliners will all be delivered and placed in service eventually. We even (_finally_) have news about the stillborn bi-level car order. But for the P-42 rebuild program and Amfleet II replacements we know almost nothing (if, indeed, there is anything much to know).


----------



## Green Maned Lion

jis said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure what the point of attending such meeting is. They seem to me to mostly be a waste of time.
> 
> 
> 
> Similar to spending time in AU?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More seriously, actually I go to these meetings for basically the same reason that I come to web forums like AU. Partly socializing, partly foraging for information, occasionally trying to make a few people see things my way, and in addition having a few good meals and drinks in the company of people I enjoy being with, and an occasional ride on a train or two either will the group or on my own thrown in for good measure, and while at it collecting a few AGR points and United miles and such too
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is something to be said about face to face meetings instead of via fingering the keyboard and talking to disemboweled voices over the phone.
Click to expand...

I can understand that. But posting on here is free. And frankly I wish some of those people I have talked to over the phone were disemboweled.
I mean I used to do that stuff, but I have become somewhat convinced that most of the people fighting on the scene are more interested in promoting their egos than the quality of service experienced by the average rider.

And Neroden? I suggest finding a reasonable lawyer, and have him draft a letter of intent stating that you want this resolved by such and such a date, or you will file a lawsuit. To quote Al Capone: You can get further with a kind word and a [metaphorical] gun than with a kind word alone.


----------



## jis

JoeBas said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is something to be said about face to face meetings instead of via fingering the keyboard and talking to disemboweled voices over the phone.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you meant "Disembodied", unless you're really REALLLLLLY good at the Washington Power game.
Click to expand...

LOL!


----------



## cpotisch

CAF released Columbus on 9/18. I'm pretty sure it entered service on 10/17 or 10/18, so it took about a month to get everything in order for that car. I get the sense that there's nothing wrong with Atlanta, there's just no use for it right now. With Hartford and Harrisburg delivered, I would say that we can expect '012 and '013 ready for service by December. That puts the Viewdiner count at 11 (including 8400). Two or three more and there should be sufficient equipment to outfit the LSL. That's not to say that Amtrak will restore the Lake Shore's diner the moment it's possible, but there's no real point for Amtrak to keep five solid diners parked on the side.


----------



## RPC

Thirdrail7 said:


> We explained why they go to Florida. There are still Amtrak mods that need to occur.


I'm genuinely curious...what are these Amtrak mods that a) can't be performed in Elmira before delivery and b) take nearly a month between arrival in Hialeah and release into revenue service?


----------



## stappend

Anyone want to speculate as to what they will do with the other ~12. Star (4), Cardinal daily with diner (4), Cresent with a Meridian split, would that take additional diners? Personally I'd like to see the Silver Palm brought back with an extension to Boston. If I could catch it in the evening after work to Orlando, that could potentially be 2 extra vacation days in Florida.


----------



## jis

With 26 Diners, only 21 or if we are very lucky then 22 will be available for regular ops at most.

Meteor 4

Crescent 4

LSL 3

Cardinal 4 (maybe 3)

Star 4 (assuming it gets them back)

That just leaves 3 or maybe 4 to play around with.

It is almost certain that there will be no Silver Palm to Boston. It is conceivable that a properly timed additional New York - Florida train could operate with 3 consists, or another East Coast - Chicago service could operate with three consists.

The Crescent Star (NYP - FTW) could be done with a low level consist with a couple of additional Diners, with the Crescent section to NOL running with just a Lounge until it joins up with the FTW section in Meridian.


----------



## KnightRail

RPC said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We explained why they go to Florida. There are still Amtrak mods that need to occur.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm genuinely curious...what are these Amtrak mods that a) can't be performed in Elmira before delivery and b) take nearly a month between arrival in Hialeah and release into revenue service?
Click to expand...

Even if there were not modifications to be performed, there still needs to be a top to bottom end to end inspection done on each car by the purchaser before it is conditionally accepted for service. What if there were hidden manufacturing flaws or structural defects and a piece of rolling stock was just accepted taking the manufactures word for it. As for mods, they have been mentioned multiple times already on this forum. Just one for example is Wi-Fi outfitting.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Some good news, bad news. Atlanta is out and about, specifically on the Lake Shore Limited. No it is not in service, it's deadheading for the big NARP event in Chicago this weekend where it will be displayed.

Nick


----------



## GBNorman

It appears that there are eight V-D's on the property plus the V-P 8400. This means if they all stay healthy all consists of the Meteor and Crescent can be protected with one spare. Add the two reported on their way and then eleven are available, allowing three spares.

Nothing further can be done until four more arrive. Then it is "decision time"; give 'em back to the Lake Shore with a spare for Chicago or to the Star? Four more beyond that and there is no decision to be made, as everyone who previously had full service Diners will have 'em again.

With seven more what to do with them. Possibly reassign the V-P to company service and "take a chance" there will be enough to assign Cardinal full service Diners. That's four left for heavy repairs as they come due.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

neroden said:


> I'm getting the feeling that the LSL won't have diners on my trip *to* the NARP meeting -- tonight -- and that it won't have diners on my trip *back from* the NARP meeting either -- a week fom now. Sigh. Maybe my Thanksgiving trip?


Ah, man. You missed having it by a day. Atlanta is deadheading on 49 today.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> If you have time on the 1st, I suppose you can verify if Ryan's post is correct.....Fleet One!
> 
> If you miss, I guess Fleet 2 can check things on the 2nd.


I'm working from home today, so will try a different spot to catch 97. Hope no SEPTA trains stop and get in my way (will be at a SEPTA station).


----------



## KnightRail

Ngotwalt said:


> Some good news, bad news. Atlanta is out and about, specifically on the Lake Shore Limited. No it is not in service, it's deadheading for the big NARP event in Chicago this weekend where it will be displayed.
> 
> Nick


Is that an eyewitness visual report or reposted hearsay from TrainDISorders?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I am not sure I like the acronym VD.


----------



## GBNorman

Green Maned Lion said:


> I am not sure I like the acronym VD.


You have a point, Mr. Lion, and accordingly I have edited the post to read V-D (Viewliner Diner) and V-P (Viewliner Prototype 8400)


----------



## WoodyinNYC

cpotisch said:


> Why are CAF producing the diners out of order?


Don't know and don't care about the order. I'm just so pleased that CAF is now producing them at a good pace, delayed, sure, but the delays are not getting worse.

If we see the first sleepers by this time next year ...


----------



## Anthony V

I don't care what order they come in. All that matters to me is that they get delivered within a reasonable timeframe.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KnightRail said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some good news, bad news. Atlanta is out and about, specifically on the Lake Shore Limited. No it is not in service, it's deadheading for the big NARP event in Chicago this weekend where it will be displayed.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Is that an eyewitness visual report or reposted hearsay from TrainDISorders?
Click to expand...

Hmm, just saw something on FB about a Viewliner II diner on 29.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## KnightRail

AmtrakBlue said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some good news, bad news. Atlanta is out and about, specifically on the Lake Shore Limited. No it is not in service, it's deadheading for the big NARP event in Chicago this weekend where it will be displayed.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Is that an eyewitness visual report or reposted hearsay from TrainDISorders?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm, just saw something on FB about a Viewliner II diner on 29.
Click to expand...

That sounds more like the plan. Point being some have a bad habit of seeing something on TrainDISorders and cross posting it here as fact with no credit for where that info came from. Coming from there chances are its wrong, which it was.


----------



## MikefromCrete

AmtrakBlue said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some good news, bad news. Atlanta is out and about, specifically on the Lake Shore Limited. No it is not in service, it's deadheading for the big NARP event in Chicago this weekend where it will be displayed.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Is that an eyewitness visual report or reposted hearsay from TrainDISorders?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm, just saw something on FB about a Viewliner II diner on 29.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Going to Chicago for exhibition at the NARP convention?


----------



## KnightRail

MikefromCrete said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some good news, bad news. Atlanta is out and about, specifically on the Lake Shore Limited. No it is not in service, it's deadheading for the big NARP event in Chicago this weekend where it will be displayed.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Is that an eyewitness visual report or reposted hearsay from TrainDISorders?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm, just saw something on FB about a Viewliner II diner on 29.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Going to Chicago for exhibition at the NARP convention?
Click to expand...

Yes, Atlanta will be in Chicago for that event.


----------



## mgl1978

Amtrak #97 11/1/2017 with HFD and HAR at long bridge.

https://youtu.be/QdWjgsRpZ-U


----------



## GBNorman

Nice video Mr. Guey-Lee (you're "out" with your video).

This definitely shows the shape of things to come with seven Viewliners and four A-II's in the consist of 97(1).


----------



## Ngotwalt

Actually it was a Facebook report on the NEC group, there was an inaccuracy, the car went west on 29, not 49.

Nick


----------



## tommylicious

There was another extra viewliner on Wednesday's 49. 29 carried one too today.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> There was another extra viewliner on Wednesday's 49. 29 carried one too today.


But was it a diner or a Viewliner 1 sleeper??


----------



## KnightRail

AmtrakBlue said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was another extra viewliner on Wednesday's 49. 29 carried one too today.
> 
> 
> 
> But was it a diner or a Viewliner 1 sleeper??
Click to expand...

It was not a Viewliner diner.


----------



## tommylicious

Knight what wuz it then?


----------



## CCC1007

tommylicious said:


> Knight what wuz it then?


Only two options, V1 sleeper or V2 baggage...


----------



## AmtrakLKL

AmtrakBlue said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> There was another extra viewliner on Wednesday's 49. 29 carried one too today.
> 
> 
> 
> But was it a diner or a Viewliner 1 sleeper??
Click to expand...

The Boston sleeper was blanked so an extra V1 Sleeper operated NYP-CHI to protect 449 sleeper passengers west of ALB.


----------



## cpotisch

What is the usual shop margin for the V-II baggage cars? From there we could figure out the (approximate) necessary number of diners needed for the LSL.


----------



## jis

Usually it appears to be about 20% aggregate shop margin. It is not done separately for individual trains on a train by train basis.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Green Maned Lion

This is what Amtrak really needs. Lots of bloviation.


----------



## cpotisch

So forgetting about other factors, a total of 13 diners is probably needed for the LSL. With Harrisburg and Hartford delivered (to be finished at the end of the November), that means only two more needed. We can most likely expect the next two diners to leave CAF at the end of November. With a pretty consistent 1 month stay in Hialeah for new diners, we can expect a sufficient diner fleet by 2018. Thus, I think it's safe to say that the LSL will have a diner by February. Woohoo!


----------



## cpotisch

WoodyinNYC

You lost me in the bowels of Penn Station, or sumpin.

Why do you see 13 diners for the Lake Shore? The Meteor and Crescent seem to be scraping by with one diner per consist, and four consists each. The Lake Shore uses three consists, no? Even if it needs four, with a fifth one for backup, that's a long way short of 13. Lordy.

Your post isn't showing up on the thread anymore, but what I meant was not that the LSL alone uses 13 diners, but that a grand total of 13 diners would be needed for the LSL to 're-diner-ified'. It's a total of 11 consists between the LSL, Crescent, and Meteor. Add a 20% shop margin and 13 diners are needed.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

cpotisch said:


> WoodyinNYC
> 
> You lost me in the bowels of Penn Station, or sumpin.
> 
> Why do you see 13 diners for the Lake Shore? The Meteor and Crescent seem to be scraping by with one diner per consist, and four consists each. The Lake Shore uses three consists, no? Even if it needs four, with a fifth one for backup, that's a long way short of 13. Lordy.
> 
> Your post isn't showing up on the thread anymore, but what I meant was not that the LSL alone uses 13 diners, but that a grand total of 13 diners would be needed for the LSL to 're-diner-ified'. It's a total of 11 consists between the LSL, Crescent, and Meteor. Add a 20% shop margin and 13 diners are needed.


I realized that I'd misunderstood, so I deleted the nonsense post a.s.a.p.


----------



## cpotisch

WoodyinNYC said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC
> 
> You lost me in the bowels of Penn Station, or sumpin.
> 
> Why do you see 13 diners for the Lake Shore? The Meteor and Crescent seem to be scraping by with one diner per consist, and four consists each. The Lake Shore uses three consists, no? Even if it needs four, with a fifth one for backup, that's a long way short of 13. Lordy.
> 
> Your post isn't showing up on the thread anymore, but what I meant was not that the LSL alone uses 13 diners, but that a grand total of 13 diners would be needed for the LSL to 're-diner-ified'. It's a total of 11 consists between the LSL, Crescent, and Meteor. Add a 20% shop margin and 13 diners are needed.
> 
> 
> 
> I realized that I'd misunderstood, so I deleted the nonsense post a.s.a.p.
Click to expand...

Okey-doke.


----------



## neroden

Green Maned Lion said:


> And Neroden? I suggest finding a reasonable lawyer, and have him draft a letter of intent stating that you want this resolved by such and such a date, or you will file a lawsuit. To quote Al Capone: You can get further with a kind word and a [metaphorical] gun than with a kind word alone.


That is my next step. It's actually useful when filing a lawsuit to provide evidence that you did everything you can short of a lawsuit. I've been *extremely* busy lately -- everything which I was supposed to be resolving at different times during the year got delayed and is all happening at once, and on top of that, we have upper respiratory infections -- and I simply won't be able to start getting an appropriate lawyer (one always wants a specialist in the particular sort of case) until January.

Bonus for me from taking the trip: the hotel which NARP/RPA picked is *the* most accomodating hotel for my allergies and those of my girlfriend which I have found in Chicago so far, so it will be my go-to hotel in Chicago from now on. So there's that.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> We explained why they go to Florida.


Over the weekend I learned an additional reason why they go to Florida. They're apparently required to have a "shakedown" trip on revenue trains, but without passengers, of a particular minimum length. Albany to Hialeah is just long enough.  If they were commissioned anywhere else they'd have to drive around in circles before going into service. This is a regulation I did not know about...

As is usual for conferences, almost all the interesting things happen in hallway discussions, not in the actual sessions. Though I think I did put an idea in someone's head during one of the sessions.


----------



## neroden

GBNorman said:


> It appears that there are eight V-D's on the property plus the V-P 8400. This means if they all stay healthy all consists of the Meteor and Crescent can be protected with one spare. Add the two reported on their way and then eleven are available, allowing three spares.
> 
> Nothing further can be done until four more arrive. Then it is "decision time"; give 'em back to the Lake Shore with a spare for Chicago or to the Star?


The LSL needs a dining car yesterday. Amtrak's basically throwing money in the trash by not having one. The LSL used to have the highest coach-passenger patronage of the dining car of all the trains with dining cars, and they're certainly losing that patronage with the flatly-unacceptable menu being served today.


----------



## neroden

KnightRail said:


> Yes, Atlanta will be in Chicago for that event.


I took a peek while I was there: my first view of the new dining cars. FWIW, I think the interior looks almost exactly like #8400, except that the "turn" around the kitchen is arranged differently and slightly more spacious, and there are some decorative frosted glass panels on the backs of a few of the booths.


----------



## PVD

I was on the Lake a few days ago. To characterize the menu as flatly unacceptable ? To whom? Certainly not to the people who ordered from it. Yes, it would be better to offer a few more choices, but smaller menus with good choices are a common business practice in the food service trade. All in all, the LSL crew did a pretty good job with the limited car, service was good, they took the time to make the plates look decent, it really wasn't that bad for 2 meals. Yes, a full diner returning should happen as soon as possible, but I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. A factor may have been that it wasn't that crowded a train, if they were really busy, it probably would have been harder to work in the limited environment.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Atlanta will be in Chicago for that event.
> 
> 
> 
> I took a peek while I was there: my first view of the new dining cars. FWIW, I think the interior looks almost exactly like #8400, except that the "turn" around the kitchen is arranged differently and slightly more spacious, and there are some decorative frosted glass panels on the backs of a few of the booths.
Click to expand...

I walked through 8400 back when National Train Day came to Grand Central in 2012. As I previously mentioned, I dined in Atlanta on 97/98 back in June. The general look is the same, but the V-IIs do have some nicer details in my opinion.

On Viewliner IIs:


There are Faux-wood panels on the aisle side of the booths
The seats are black leather (not blue plastic)
The aforementioned glass decorative panels (which I think look quite good)
No more velcro curtains


----------



## Thirdrail7

I highly doubt they would equip the Lake Shore when they have 13 cars for 11 actual. If it happens, I would say they would wait until they have 15 operational diners (of any variety) available. This is particularly true with winter approaching. Hopefully, this will occur by the end of Jan. possibly Feb.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> I highly doubt they would equip the Lake Shore when they have 13 cars for 11 actual. If it happens, I would say they would wait until they have 15 operational diners (of any variety) available. This is particularly true with winter approaching. Hopefully, this will occur by the end of Jan. possibly Feb.


Yeah, I was thinking that.

I think cpotisch just took my back of the envelope 20% shop spare WAG and used that to arrive at the number 13.


----------



## neroden

The breakfast "menu" on the LSL right now is flatly unacceptable. Anyone who tolerates it has no standards whatsoever (and certainly no allergies). The options consist of mystery meat mash with no ingredients list. It wouldn't be tolerated in a high school cafeteria where I come from.

Small menus with good choices are great. This was a "menu" with no good choices.

And boy, the dining car was pretty empty when I walked out.

I didn't look at the other meals because I'm never on the train for them. But there isn't any breakfast on the LSL right now. That's the only way I can describe it.


----------



## PerRock

I don't see "Mystery meat mash" on the list here... Most this are pretty straight forward as to what they are. Although Amtrak does need to do a better job at providing proper ingredients lists for allergens.

Isn't Amtrak's food provided by one of the mega-food supplier companies, like Aramark? Maybe they have more info on the meals.

peter


----------



## neroden

That's because the list on Amtrak Food Facts is currently not accurate for the LSL. Another problem. The menu listed there was just fine, but that's not the menu on the actual train.

Bottom line: until they restore actual dining car service on the LSL, bring your own meals. The situation right now is far worse than the previous times when Amfleet IIs were used as substitute dining cars (those times were OK).


----------



## PVD

I had the french toast and a few strips of bacon, it was plated decently, and was not that bad. But each of us has our own opinions and standards. We can certainly be more sensitive to people with allergies, but it is just never going to be an obsession for the general population.


----------



## neroden

PVD said:


> I had the french toast and a few strips of bacon,


Not available on my last trip, last week. Not even on the menu.

Either your information is out of date or they've *extremely* recently restored service. What day did you travel, and in which direction?

I would have been fine with bacon. Wasn't an option.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I’m tired of people posting how bad things are - based on their standards - and telling everyone else to avoid those things.

We all have OUR own level of tolerance for everything in OUR life and I, for one, would not tell someone to avoid something I personally did not like.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

Well, I absolutely will tell people to avoid a situation where they have no idea what the menu is going to be when they walk in, because it may simply be missing everything. That's Soviet-level stuff. Bring your own food, or you have no guarantees that there will be anything.

I won't tell people to avoid any situation where it is *clear what your options will be*, but this is not that.


----------



## PVD

If there was a mismatch between the Food Facts page and the Menu, I would totally agree with you that that is inexcusable. I know we have a somewhat different opinion as to the degree of detail that an ingredients list can or should have, but I certainly think it should at least be reflective as to what is actually on the menu. Not sure of your date of travel, but in my case, a few days ago, the lists matched. As noted in the listing, they were switching French Toast selections to what they called an "improved" version, perhaps that explains some of why we saw it so differently. At least they recognized it needed improvement.

48, left Chicago Monday 11-6


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> I’m tired of people posting how bad things are - based on their standards - and telling everyone else to avoid those things.
> 
> We all have OUR own level of tolerance for everything in OUR life and I, for one, would not tell someone to avoid something I personally did not like.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


While none of this has much to do with whether the food service car is a Viewliner II or not, I think this business about advising others on whether to do something or not is a thing that goes both ways. The advisors advise away whether anyone cares or not,




and the advisees (is that a word? - the receivers of advice I mean) evaluate the worth of any advice based on the previous known track record of the advisor. People know soon enough who are the chicken little and who are the sage ones. Having played both sides of this game, this is my experience of how things actually work, as far as that goes.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I for one appreciate "boots on the ground" reports from our members with recent expierences when it comes to things Amtrak, and other travel info, since the various for profit travel sites and the Official Company sites are so varied as to info and usually out of date in most instances. YMMV


----------



## PVD

As Cardinal Ratzinger said (pre Benedict XVI days) "Truth is not determined by a majority vote"

As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said (pre train station days) "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, just not to his own facts"

As to the actual subject, Viewliner deliveries will be a major plus, one food fact we probably all agree on is that most people are more satisfied with food served in a cleaner and brighter atmosphere. The sleeper I was in was clean, and everything worked, but it definitely looked tired, and in need of a refurb. Little things like one brand new curtain (someone must have replaced a bad one) against a bunch of sun faded ones.....A bunch of new cars would allow a few more off the line for a little longer. Bag dorm makes sense on a train where roomettes sell well, and the OBS crew is large....we all know these things, and we are moving forward toward some resolution, albeit (sadly) at a glacially slow pace.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Amtrak substituting ingredients and items with disregard for people with allegies *is* unacceptable, patently. Nate alerting those who have allergies that this is the case, and that they should bring their own food is fair. But he should mention that this is only for people with allergies.

This is a totally different subject than whether or not the food is good.


----------



## cpotisch

Does it seem likely that at this pace and from what (little) is known, the LSL should have it's diner back by Feb?


----------



## Ryan

No.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Is it agreed that at this pace and from what (little) we know, that the LSL should have it's diner back by Feb?





Ryan said:


> No.


Ryan is correct. "We" have not agreed on anything. We have no idea when or if the Lake Shore Limited will resume full dining car service. For all we know, CAF will not meet their next projected delivery. For all we know, Amtrak may await completion of multiple cars before they make a trip to pick them up. For all we know, there could be another storm that inhibits the ability to ship the car(s) to Florida for acceptance. For all we know, Chicago may want more exposure to the cars prior to restoration of service. For all we know, these cars could develop some sort of unforeseen "Lake Effect" cold problem that hinders their movements in the winter. For all we know, Amtrak is planning on putting dining cars on the train by Thanksgiving.

"We" will just have to wait and see.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Green Maned Lion said:


> Amtrak substituting ingredients and items with disregard for people with allegies *is* unacceptable, patently. Nate alerting those who have allergies that this is the case, and that they should bring their own food is fair. But he should mention that this is only for people with allergies.
> 
> This is a totally different subject than whether or not the food is good.


i agree that warnings are ok regarding allergens (and I meant to include something about that in my post, but when I’m posting from my phone I sometimes forget things I’m thinking while I’m typing).

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

But the problem has many facets. First of all, there are common food allergies that we have become accustomed to seeing warnings for, and less common ones where people are allergic to things that very few people are. You can't put up a warning for everything, that is why ingredient lists are important. But that brings up the next set of issues wherein vendors are constantly changing suppliers for component ingredients, the contents of which are poorly regulated. These are not one sided issues, say for example you react seriously to dog hair or dander, but I have a passenger with a legit service dog. Unless the dog is misbehaving, I can't bar it from the diner, but on the other hand I would like to accommodate you. If I tell one of you to stay out I'll probably get sued.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it agreed that at this pace and from what (little) we know, that the LSL should have it's diner back by Feb?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ryan is correct. "We" have not agreed on anything. We have no idea when or if the Lake Shore Limited will resume full dining car service. For all we know, CAF will not meet their next projected delivery. For all we know, Amtrak may await completion of multiple cars before they make a trip to pick them up. For all we know, there could be another storm that inhibits the ability to ship the car(s) to Florida for acceptance. For all we know, Chicago may want more exposure to the cars prior to restoration of service. For all we know, these cars could develop some sort of unforeseen "Lake Effect" cold problem that hinders their movements in the winter. For all we know, Amtrak is planning on putting dining cars on the train by Thanksgiving.
> 
> "We" will just have to wait and see.
Click to expand...

In short - que sera sera - whatever will be will be. Just get used to being patient.


----------



## PVD

Fair enough point. We have 60+ percent of the cars from this order, just not enough of the ones some of us would appreciate the most. As an East Coast sleeper rider I am resigned to biding my time!


----------



## Green Maned Lion

PVD said:


> But the problem has many facets. First of all, there are common food allergies that we have become accustomed to seeing warnings for, and less common ones where people are allergic to things that very few people are. You can't put up a warning for everything, that is why ingredient lists are important. But that brings up the next set of issues wherein vendors are constantly changing suppliers for component ingredients, the contents of which are poorly regulated. These are not one sided issues, say for example you react seriously to dog hair or dander, but I have a passenger with a legit service dog. Unless the dog is misbehaving, I can't bar it from the diner, but on the other hand I would like to accommodate you. If I tell one of you to stay out I'll probably get sued.


Aramark or almost any of their competitors manage to provide that information to other customers.


----------



## IndyLions

Below is my food report from a recent LSL trip. The crew’s efforts optimized the experience (they took lemons & made lemonade). My advice is to keep your expectations low - and you might be pleasantly surprised.

Despite the positive experience, I anxiously await the new Diners on this train






Menu Changes (October 2017)

Food Report...LSL Eastbound Thu Nov 2 departure.

I’ll admit I had low expectations, and I’ve had much better food before (many moons ago when it was freshly prepared) on Amtrak - but the food was pretty good. I definitely didn’t go hungry - that’s for sure.

Breakfast -

French Toast (B+). Not fresh made, but prepared properly and very tasty. Chicken/Apple sausage was a nice option. Bacon was just ok.

Continental (B). A lot of food and a decent value. Oatmeal with raisins & brown sugar, a croissant, yogurt and fresh fruit.

Lunch -

Cheeseburger (B-). I enjoyed it, but it was missing something. I should have been more adventurous.

Romaine/Feta/Walnut Salad (B). Assembled onboard, greens were good and fresh. They fumbled the dressing choices - they only had ranch.

Dinner (Boston Section) - these were the only two choices

Beef with Mashed Potatoes and green beans (B+). My wife raved about the flavor of the beef dish.

Pasta Vegetarian option (B+). The flavor was really good! Not a mild choice at all. I could have sworn the vegetarian sausage was meat. The bread was properly warmed.

Desserts - lunch & dinner

Chocolate tart with strawberries (B+).

Yogurt Cheesecake with strawberries (B+). A good lower cal (<400) choice.

Chocolate Chunk Cookie (B+).

All the desserts were worth the calories, in my opinion. The crew even got creative and offered the cheesecake as the “a la mode” on top of the cookie at dinner!

One other note: the crew was outstanding on this trip - my best experience in several years. Especially the Boston Section crew - Mary (sleeper) and Rachael (lounge) absolutely went the extra mile and deserve an A+! As a whole - the entire LSL crew showed that even without a diner - if you do your job well you can deliver enjoyable food and a really nice onboard experience.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PRR 60

Just as a reminder, this topic is about Viewliner II production and delivery. We have food topics open, including this current one:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/71610-menu-changes-october-2017/


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> Fair enough point. We have 60+ percent of the cars from this order, just not enough of the ones some of us would appreciate the most. As an East Coast sleeper rider I am resigned to biding my time!


Yeah. Unfortunately, unless the pace picks up, it will be second to third calendar quarter 2018 before we start seeing any Sleepers. 
Interestingly, in his speech at Rail Nation, Anderson never once mentioned the Viewliner Sleepers or anything about when they may or may not appear. Perhaps not too much should be read into it, but many of us noticed.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Bob Dylan

Mr Anderson didn't do Q&A after his Speech?


----------



## jis

Bob Dylan said:


> Mr Anderson didn't do Q&A after his Speech?


No Q&A from the floor. Questions had to be submitted before hand and the moderator picked the ones that were asked in the limited time. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Did Mr. Anderson say anything at the NARP convention about possibly exercising some or all the option on this Viewliner 2 contract?


----------



## jis

DSS&A said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did Mr. Anderson say anything at the NARP convention about possibly exercising some or all the option on this Viewliner 2 contract?


No. 


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Yeah. Unfortunately, unless the pace picks up,* it will be second to third calendar quarter 2018 before we start seeing any Sleepers.*


----------



## jis

[emoji23]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PRR 60

Amtrak exercising options with CAF reminds me of the scene in Animal House with pledges getting spanked at the fraternity hazing, then saying, "Thank you sir, may I have another."


----------



## dlagrua

AmtrakBlue said:


> I’m tired of people posting how bad things are - based on their standards - and telling everyone else to avoid those things.
> 
> We all have OUR own level of tolerance for everything in OUR life and I, for one, would not tell someone to avoid something I personally did not like.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


On any forum we share the open exchange of ideas and opinions. Some people have higher standards than others. Many prefer the 4 star restaurants and some prefer the pizza places. I agree that its unfair to tell others what they should or should not eat but a persons opinion of Amtrak cuisine can be useful.. Having dined with Alain Ducasse, Joel Rubochon, Mario Batali, Paul Prudhomme, Lydia, Bastianich, Jean-Michel Bergougnoux, and others; it is hoped that my opinions of Amtrak food, (made as connoisseur of fine cuisine) can be useful .


----------



## DSS&A

PRR 60 said:


> Amtrak exercising options with CAF reminds me of the scene in Animal House with pledges getting spanked at the fraternity hazing, then saying, "Thank you sir, may I have another."


I know, but getting more revenue generating sleepers and a least a few more diners now will be beneficial for the future.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PRR 60 said:


> Amtrak exercising options with CAF reminds me of the scene in Animal House with pledges getting spanked at the fraternity hazing, then saying, "Thank you sir, may I have another."



So...you think Amtrak will exercise the order!



Besides, by the time the final sleeper rolls off the line, we may need new baggage cars!


----------



## DSS&A

Hi Thirdrail 7,

Yes I think more equipment will benefit Amtrak, but CAF's actions on this contract that we know from the sidelines is horrible. With more V2 sleepers, Amtrak would be able to replace the interiors of the V1 sleepers quicker and have more good revenue generating cars in its fleet! I know I am "on the sidelines on this particular Amtrak improvement", so I and many others will have to see what happens.....


----------



## cpotisch

These seem to be the current routes for all the diners, based on their most recent sightings.

*Silver Meteor:*

Charleston - October 17

Columbus - November 10

Boston - November 12

*Crescent:*

Augusta - October 12

Indianapolis - November 10

Annapolis - October 27

Baton Rouge - November 11

Columbia - November 11



MARC Rider said:


> When I got off 67 this morning (10/17/17) in Washington, 98 was on the other side of the platform with Charleston diner in the consist.


That post was almost a month ago, and is the last sighting of Charleston I've been able to found. Despite having looked at probably 40 or more recent videos of the Crescent and Meteor, I haven't found 68006 anywhere since then, so it seems to be out of service.

Augusta is a similar story. Last time I saw or heard about was on 10/12 as is mentioned above. From that I've concluded that 68003 is _also_ out of service

All of this would make sense, as that would mean that the Crescent is currently running with Indianapolis, Annapolis, Baton Rouge, and Columbia, while the Meteor has Columbus, Boston, and two Heritage diners.

What I'm wondering is: Why have Charleston and Augusta been taken out of service? If they're in perfect shape, there's no point keeping them as reserves. Heritage cars are far less reliable than V-IIs (as has been mentioned here a thousand times), so one would think V-IIs would be the preferred equipment to use.

My guess is that there are mechanical issues with 68003 and '006, but have no idea from there.

Does anyone here have any idea what's going on there?


----------



## cpotisch

DSS&A said:


> Hi Thirdrail 7,
> 
> Yes I think more equipment will benefit Amtrak, but CAF's actions on this contract that we know from the sidelines is horrible. With more V2 sleepers, Amtrak would be able to replace the interiors of the V1 sleepers quicker and have more good revenue generating cars in its fleet! I know I am "on the sidelines on this particular Amtrak improvement", so I and many others will have to see what happens.....


If Amtrak were to replace the interiors of the V-Is, are they expected to make them just like the V-IIs, or more of a touch up (like keep the roomettes' toilet)


----------



## jis

Thirdrail may know more about all this, but I think the Roomette toilets will be gone, but the sink will be retained. They will have to yank out most of the Roomette modules anyway in order tog et the restroom module in, so might as well fix them up properly.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> These seem to be the current routes for all the diners, based on their most recent sightings.
> 
> *Silver Meteor:*
> 
> Charleston - October 17
> 
> Columbus - November 10
> 
> Boston - November 12
> 
> *Crescent:*
> 
> Augusta - October 12
> 
> Indianapolis - November 10
> 
> Annapolis - October 27
> 
> Baton Rouge - November 11
> 
> Columbia - November 11
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I got off 67 this morning (10/17/17) in Washington, 98 was on the other side of the platform with Charleston diner in the consist.
> 
> 
> 
> That post was almost a month ago, and is the last sighting of Charleston I've been able to found. Despite having looked at probably 40 or more recent videos of the Crescent and Meteor, I haven't found 68006 anywhere since then, so it seems to be out of service.
> 
> Augusta is a similar story. Last time I saw or heard about was on 10/12 as is mentioned above. From that I've concluded that 68003 is _also_ out of service
> 
> All of this would make sense, as that would mean that the Crescent is currently running with Indianapolis, Annapolis, Baton Rouge, and Columbia, while the Meteor has Columbus, Boston, and two Heritage diners.
> 
> What I'm wondering is: Why have Charleston and Augusta been taken out of service? If they're in perfect shape, there's no point keeping them as reserves. Heritage cars are far less reliable than V-IIs (as has been mentioned here a thousand times), so one would think V-IIs would be the preferred equipment to use.
> 
> My guess is that there are mechanical issues with 68003 and '006, but have no idea from there.
> 
> *Does anyone here have any idea what's going on there?*
Click to expand...


Yes....you're panicky individual that is depending on youtube videos for information. Both cars have been used in service in the last weeks although one of them is up for PM soon.


----------



## PRR 60

Thirdrail7 said:


> PRR 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak exercising options with CAF reminds me of the scene in Animal House with pledges getting spanked at the fraternity hazing, then saying, "Thank you sir, may I have another."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...you think Amtrak will exercise the order!
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, by the time the final sleeper rolls off the line, we may need new baggage cars!
Click to expand...

Maybe the sarcasm was a little too subtle?


----------



## me_little_me

dlagrua said:


> On any forum we share the open exchange of ideas and opinions. Some people have higher standards than others. Many prefer the 4 star restaurants and some prefer the pizza places. I agree that its unfair to tell others what they should or should not eat but a persons opinion of Amtrak cuisine can be useful.. Having dined with Alain Ducasse, Joel Rubochon, Mario Batali, Paul Prudhomme, Lydia, Bastianich, Jean-Michel Bergougnoux, and others; it is hoped that my opinions of Amtrak food, (made as connoisseur of fine cuisine) can be useful .


That's funny! I dined with them also. We met as a group and ate at Roi Bergere. I believe Mario had the Roi de la Ferme, Paul had the Roi du Bacon and Alain had the Sandwich au Poulet et au Parmesan. I can't remember what the others ate.


----------



## DSS&A

cpotisch said:


> DSS&A said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Thirdrail 7,
> 
> Yes I think more equipment will benefit Amtrak, but CAF's actions on this contract that we know from the sidelines is horrible. With more V2 sleepers, Amtrak would be able to replace the interiors of the V1 sleepers quicker and have more good revenue generating cars in its fleet! I know I am "on the sidelines on this particular Amtrak improvement", so I and many others will have to see what happens.....
> 
> 
> 
> If Amtrak were to replace the interiors of the V-Is, are they expected to make them just like the V-IIs, or more of a touch up (like keep the roomettes' toilet)
Click to expand...

I had read about the idea that Amtrak was going to perform a rehabilitation on the original V1 sleepers after the V2s arrived and funding was programmed. I recall the posting stated the rehab plan was to make the V1s have the same room arrangement as the V2s. If recollection is incorrect, my apologies.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> These seem to be the current routes for all the diners, based on their most recent sightings.
> 
> *Silver Meteor:*
> 
> Charleston - October 17
> 
> Columbus - November 10
> 
> Boston - November 12
> 
> *Crescent:*
> 
> Augusta - October 12
> 
> Indianapolis - November 10
> 
> Annapolis - October 27
> 
> Baton Rouge - November 11
> 
> Columbia - November 11
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I got off 67 this morning (10/17/17) in Washington, 98 was on the other side of the platform with Charleston diner in the consist.
> 
> 
> 
> That post was almost a month ago, and is the last sighting of Charleston I've been able to found. Despite having looked at probably 40 or more recent videos of the Crescent and Meteor, I haven't found 68006 anywhere since then, so it seems to be out of service.
> 
> Augusta is a similar story. Last time I saw or heard about was on 10/12 as is mentioned above. From that I've concluded that 68003 is _also_ out of service
> 
> All of this would make sense, as that would mean that the Crescent is currently running with Indianapolis, Annapolis, Baton Rouge, and Columbia, while the Meteor has Columbus, Boston, and two Heritage diners.
> 
> What I'm wondering is: Why have Charleston and Augusta been taken out of service? If they're in perfect shape, there's no point keeping them as reserves. Heritage cars are far less reliable than V-IIs (as has been mentioned here a thousand times), so one would think V-IIs would be the preferred equipment to use.
> 
> My guess is that there are mechanical issues with 68003 and '006, but have no idea from there.
> 
> *Does anyone here have any idea what's going on there?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes....you're panicky individual that is depending on youtube videos for information. Both cars have been used in service in the last weeks although one of them is up for PM soon.
Click to expand...

I'm not panicking about this (at least I don't think I am), I was just genuinely wondering why I hadn't found Augusta anywhere recently. I'm sorry for clogging up the thread, but I figured that if there were something wrong with the V-IIs, that it would be of note.


----------



## neroden

IndyLions said:


> Below is my food report from a recent LSL trip. The crew’s efforts optimized the experience (they took lemons & made lemonade).


I will say this: the crews have always, always, _always_ done their level best. Management simply isn't giving the crew the support they need to do a good job. They've actually been ordered to destroy the ingredients lists on the packaging they receive at the beginning of the trip, which is ridiculous.

As for the Viewliner sleepers... well, they're definite profit generators (at least on the LSL) and Amtrak needs them approximately 10 years ago, but with the dining cars still having problems I can see that maybe management just isn't thinking about them for a couple of quarters.


----------



## jis

I am hearing rumbles about 2019 being the earliest when one can expect the Sleepers. I hope it is earlier than that.


----------



## neroden

If we continue to get two dining cars per month, they'll all be in service around the end of next June. I would actually expect the bag-dorms to come next, and if they're still coming out at two per month, that takes us almost to the end of 2018. :-(


----------



## OlympianHiawatha

jis said:


> I am hearing rumbles about 2019 being the earliest when one can expect the Sleepers. I hope it is earlier than that.


If that is the case, then this entire CAF order has gotten completely out of hand as far as "timely" delivery is concerned; I would hope Amtrak could sue to recover a good portion of their investment.


----------



## neroden

OlympianHiawatha said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am hearing rumbles about 2019 being the earliest when one can expect the Sleepers. I hope it is earlier than that.
> 
> 
> 
> If that is the case, then this entire CAF order has gotten completely out of hand as far as "timely" delivery is concerned; I would hope Amtrak could sue to recover a good portion of their investment.
Click to expand...

Well, Amtrak only pays upon delivery. The result is that Amtrak has had extra cash for years on end and has collected the interest on it. (Though, more accurately, what Amtrak has done is to pay off old debt and *stop* paying the interest on that.) I suspect Amtrak gets a discount for anything which has to be done as "field mods" which should have been done by CAF as well.

(By the way, did anyone notice that the Penn Station Mortgage matured in June? I actually really want to see updated Amtrak 2017 financial statements... all the old high-interest-rate loans have been going away recently, which helps.)


----------



## AmtrakLKL

jis said:


> I am hearing rumbles about 2019 being the earliest when one can expect the Sleepers. I hope it is earlier than that.


That seems quite optimistic.


----------



## Bob Dylan

AmtrakLKL said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am hearing rumbles about 2019 being the earliest when one can expect the Sleepers. I hope it is earlier than that.
> 
> 
> 
> That seems quite optimistic.
Click to expand...

This.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

AmtrakLKL said:


> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.


Another something to give Thanks for this week!


----------



## pennyk

AmtrakLKL said:


> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.


Has this been confirmed? I am close enough to walk to the tracks to see for myself, but it is running late and will interfere with yoga class.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakLKL said:


> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.


Crescent or Meteor?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent or Meteor?
Click to expand...

Most likely on 98 right now. Where it goes after arriving in NY tomorrow, who knows.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent or Meteor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most likely on 98 right now. Where it goes after arriving in NY tomorrow, who knows.
Click to expand...

Is there any reason to believe that it would be moved to the Crescent ("After tomorrow, who knows")? Also, if Hartford is ready, is Harrisburg as well?


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent or Meteor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most likely on 98 right now. Where it goes after arriving in NY tomorrow, who knows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do we have reason to believe it would be moved off the Meteor? Also, if Hartford is ready, is Harrisburg as well?
Click to expand...


We don't have any reason to believe it would move off the Meteor unless the car is shopped. We've explained this to you before:



Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry. I should I have been a lot clearer. What I meant is that I wonder why Amtrak has been constantly cycling diners on the Meteor recently. Those cars aren't being seen on the Crescent, so clearly many cars are being taken out of service for short bouts. This might indicate reliability issues.
> 
> 
> 
> *That has been standard operating procedure since the first viewliner bags rolled off the line. Their main mechanical base is on the Meteor's route so when they initial enter service, they stay on the route during the break in period*. The 68001-68005 and the 8400 have all been used on the Crescent.
Click to expand...

68012 is currently protecting with heritage equipment.



WoodyinNYC said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Another something to give Thanks for this week!
Click to expand...

Here's something to think about. Unless there is shopped car, tomorrow will mark the day when all eastern trains with dining cars will run with a viewliner .


----------



## AmtrakLKL

cpotisch said:


> Do we have reason to believe it would be moved off the Meteor? Also, if Hartford is ready, is Harrisburg as well?


Aside from Harrisburg being backwards, it is also ready for service. Just a quick loop around the, er, loop, and it’ll be good to go.

Of course, there is a whole line of Heritage diners in Hialeah ready for service, too.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent or Meteor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most likely on 98 right now. Where it goes after arriving in NY tomorrow, who knows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there any reason to believe that it would be moved to the Crescent ("After tomorrow, who knows")? Also, if Hartford is ready, is Harrisburg as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have any reason to believe it would move off the Meteor unless the car is shopped. We've explained this to you before:
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry. I should I have been a lot clearer. What I meant is that I wonder why Amtrak has been constantly cycling diners on the Meteor recently. Those cars aren't being seen on the Crescent, so clearly many cars are being taken out of service for short bouts. This might indicate reliability issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *That has been standard operating procedure since the first viewliner bags rolled off the line. Their main mechanical base is on the Meteor's route so when they initial enter service, they stay on the route during the break in period*. The 68001-68005 and the 8400 have all been used on the Crescent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 68012 is currently protecting with heritage equipment.
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another something to give Thanks for this week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's something to think about. Unless there is shopped car, tomorrow will mark the day when all eastern trains with dining cars will run with a viewliner .
Click to expand...

There have been past days when the Crescent and SM have been fully outfitted with Viewliners at the same time - just not often. Regardless, I think its safe to say that Amtrak has a sufficient Viewliner fleet to permanently ditch the Heritage Diners.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent or Meteor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most likely on 98 right now. Where it goes after arriving in NY tomorrow, who knows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there any reason to believe that it would be moved to the Crescent ("After tomorrow, who knows")? Also, if Hartford is ready, is Harrisburg as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have any reason to believe it would move off the Meteor unless the car is shopped. We've explained this to you before:
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry. I should I have been a lot clearer. What I meant is that I wonder why Amtrak has been constantly cycling diners on the Meteor recently. Those cars aren't being seen on the Crescent, so clearly many cars are being taken out of service for short bouts. This might indicate reliability issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *That has been standard operating procedure since the first viewliner bags rolled off the line. Their main mechanical base is on the Meteor's route so when they initial enter service, they stay on the route during the break in period*. The 68001-68005 and the 8400 have all been used on the Crescent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 68012 is currently protecting with heritage equipment.
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another something to give Thanks for this week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's something to think about. Unless there is shopped car, tomorrow will mark the day when all eastern trains with dining cars will run with a viewliner .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There have been past days when the Crescent and SM have been fully outfitted with Viewliners at the same time. Just not often
Click to expand...

There has NEVER been a time to my knowledge when ALL 8 sets (4 Meteor sets and 4 Crescents) have been equipped with LDSL at the same time. It may not even happen tomorrow if there is shopper.

Do you have a footage or even anecdotal evidence to back up your statement?


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Crescent or Meteor?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most likely on 98 right now. Where it goes after arriving in NY tomorrow, who knows.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there any reason to believe that it would be moved to the Crescent ("After tomorrow, who knows")? Also, if Hartford is ready, is Harrisburg as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We don't have any reason to believe it would move off the Meteor unless the car is shopped. We've explained this to you before:
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry. I should I have been a lot clearer. What I meant is that I wonder why Amtrak has been constantly cycling diners on the Meteor recently. Those cars aren't being seen on the Crescent, so clearly many cars are being taken out of service for short bouts. This might indicate reliability issues.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *That has been standard operating procedure since the first viewliner bags rolled off the line. Their main mechanical base is on the Meteor's route so when they initial enter service, they stay on the route during the break in period*. The 68001-68005 and the 8400 have all been used on the Crescent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 68012 is currently protecting with heritage equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The maiden voyage of Hartford shall commence tomorrow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Another something to give Thanks for this week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Here's something to think about. Unless there is shopped car, tomorrow will mark the day when all eastern trains with dining cars will run with a viewliner .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There have been past days when the Crescent and SM have been fully outfitted with Viewliners at the same time - just not often. Regardless, I think its safe to say that Amtrak has a sufficient Viewliner fleet to permanently ditch the Heritage Diners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There has NEVER been a time to my knowledge when ALL 8 sets (4 Meteor sets and 4 Crescents) have been equipped with LDSL at the same time. It may not even happen tomorrow if there is shopper.
> 
> Do you have a footage or even anecdotal evidence to back up your statement?
Click to expand...

I sincerely apologize if my tone or words sounded disrespectful. A couple months ago, there were times that the 8 or 9 Viewliners seemed sufficient and I didn't hear about or see any Heritage Diners in service on either train (and there were accounts of all 8 or 9 diners in service). If this was incorrect, again, I am genuinely sorry.


----------



## Ngotwalt

I think we have seen as high as seven of eight. I know at one point from a friend that there were only two heritage diners active, but then that number went back up to at least four or five.

Nick


----------



## cpotisch

Is CAF expected (if not guaranteed) to deliver new diners by the end of Nov?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> I think we have seen as high as seven of eight. I know at one point from a friend that there were only two heritage diners active, but then that number went back up to at least four or five.
> 
> Nick


Exactly. We had 7 for 8 available at one point. Now that the 68012/13 are available, breathing has been created.



AmtrakLKL said:


> Of course, there is a whole line of Heritage diners in Hialeah ready for service, too.


Stop hoarding the Heritages!! Deploy the fleet!! Send two to CHI and two to NOL for a month or so.



cpotisch said:


> Is CAF expected (if not guaranteed) to deliver new diners by the end of Nov?


You will not see new diners by the end of NOV. Even if CAF released them tomorrow, no one could pick them up before December.


----------



## nti1094

Not that it is an authoritative answer, but I just got off the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to NYC today, be the lounge car attendant said they were expecting the diners to be back at the end of August. He also noted he had yet to be trained in. the V2 diners.

At least it seems that internally Amtrak is giving the impression the LSL will

get diners again.

As for my impression of the diner light, After just doing a trip rom

CA on the Zephyr and then LSL, I think the food in the amfleet diner light was better.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## nti1094

nti1094 said:


> Not that it is an authoritative answer, but I just got off the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to NYC today, be the lounge car attendant said they were expecting the diners to be back at the end of August. He also noted he had yet to be trained in. the V2 diners.
> 
> At least it seems that internally Amtrak is giving the impression the LSL will
> 
> get diners again.
> 
> As for my impression of the diner light, After just doing a trip rom
> 
> CA on the Zephyr and then LSL, I think the food in the amfleet diner light was better.
> 
> That said, the pancakes on the Zephyr were exceptional and fluffy. I did however find the Amfleet "breakfast bowl" to be tasty and filling.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

nti1094 said:


> Not that it is an authoritative answer, but I just got off the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to NYC today, be the lounge car attendant said they were expecting the diners to be back at the end of August. He also noted he had yet to be trained in. the V2 diners.
> 
> At least it seems that internally Amtrak is giving the impression the LSL will
> 
> get diners again.
> 
> As for my impression of the diner light, After just doing a trip rom
> 
> CA on the Zephyr and then LSL, I think the food in the amfleet diner light was better.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


If we have to wait until until the freaking end of August, I am gonna throw a cinder block through someone's windshield. I just don't see any reason why it could take _that _long. With 11 cars finished so far, only two more are required (and yes I know I've said this before) to reach a 20% shop margin plus the 11 consists. Though Amtrak management is slow to change, LSL ridership and sales are definitely hindered by the diner-lites. Management may not care about the customer, but they do about the bottom line, and the longer the LSL is kept this way, the longer ridership and revenue continue to suffer. In short, sooner is better for both Amtrak and it's passengers, so once equipment permits it, the LSL 'should' receive it's dining car relatively quickly. CAF's two-a-month goal has been met for the past four months, so I would say that the 12th and 13th diners' delivery _and_ completion at Hialeah can be expected by the end of December. Beyond that, I have no idea.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Why whats wrong with 8400?


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> If we have to wait until until the freaking end of August, I am gonna throw a cinder block through someone's windshield. I just don't see any reason why it could take _that _long. With 11 cars finished so far, only two more are required (and yes I know I've said this before) to reach a 20% shop margin plus the 11 consists.


Where are you getting this 20% shop margin from? What relevance does that have? Who said that was a deciding factor in deciding diner car allotments?



cpotisch said:


> Though Amtrak management is slow to change, LSL ridership and sales are definitely hindered by the diner-lites. Management may not care about the customer, but they do about the bottom line, and the longer the LSL is kept this way, the longer ridership and revenue continue to suffer. In short, sooner is better for both Amtrak and it's passengers, so once equipment permits it, the LSL 'should' receive it's dining car relatively quickly.


What proof are you offering to back up your statement regarding ridership and sales being hindered by the diner-lites? What makes you think ridership is suffering solely because it doesn't have a full diner? What makes you think revenue is suffering?

When the official year end report comes out, I'm willing to bet you'll find a slight uptick in ridership and revenue along the route despite the lack of a dining car. Along with that, costs will have dropped since crew members were eliminated when the diner-lites were added.

Additionally, IF the LSL receives a dining car (which I assume it will), why do we assume it will happen before they restore a dining car to the Silver Star? After all, if we're reinstating cars, why not put it on their home route, where the people are already qualified? If they equip the Star first, I can see summer being a reasonable bet for the LSL.



Green Maned Lion said:


> Why whats wrong with 8400?


It is due for PM.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we have to wait until until the freaking end of August, I am gonna throw a cinder block through someone's windshield. I just don't see any reason why it could take _that _long. With 11 cars finished so far, only two more are required (and yes I know I've said this before) to reach a 20% shop margin plus the 11 consists.
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you getting this 20% shop margin from? What relevance does that have? Who said that was a deciding factor in deciding diner car allotments?
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Though Amtrak management is slow to change, LSL ridership and sales are definitely hindered by the diner-lites. Management may not care about the customer, but they do about the bottom line, and the longer the LSL is kept this way, the longer ridership and revenue continue to suffer. In short, sooner is better for both Amtrak and it's passengers, so once equipment permits it, the LSL 'should' receive it's dining car relatively quickly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What proof are you offering to back up your statement regarding ridership and sales being hindered by the diner-lites? What makes you think ridership is suffering solely because it doesn't have a full diner? What makes you think revenue is suffering?
> 
> When the official year end report comes out, I'm willing to bet you'll find a slight uptick in ridership and revenue along the route despite the lack of a dining car. Along with that, costs will have dropped since crew members were eliminated when the diner-lites were added.
> 
> Additionally, IF the LSL receives a dining car (which I assume it will), why do we assume it will happen before they restore a dining car to the Silver Star? After all, if we're reinstating cars, why not put it on their home route, where the people are already qualified? If they equip the Star first, I can see summer being a reasonable bet for the LSL.
> 
> 
> 
> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why whats wrong with 8400?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is due for PM.
Click to expand...

Can we keep this civil please? Even if you disagree with what I say, I have been pretty respectful here, and it is unnecessary to say:"Where are you getting this 20% shop margin from? What relevance does that have? Who said that was a deciding factor in deciding diner car allotments?...What proof are you offering to back up your statement regarding ridership and sales being hindered by the diner-lites? What makes you think ridership is suffering solely because it doesn't have a full diner? What makes you think revenue is suffering?"

​Thank you.


----------



## PVD

Actually, while I anxiously await the return of the diner to the LSL, the numbers for last fiscal year were not bad. Probably hurt worse by the Albany situation than the diner; sleeper space is often sold out on the LSL, availability of more space, either through the use of a bag/dorm or an added sleeper (eventually) will probably be more beneficial than the return of the diner. I was on the LSL 2 weeks ago, and while I would love to see the diner return, the crew did an excellent job with the D-L and the food was not bad. It is only 2 meals in ether direction that the diner would handle, and while it limits the selections somewhat, they did pretty well. To me, the most glaring deficiency in LD-SL is lack of a decent lounge area for 'sightseeing/relaxation, and on a train like the Lake, where they use a split car with B/C sold, there isn't any "chill zone".


----------



## jis

Would it then make sense perhaps to return the Diner to the LSL without making any menu or staff change? That would seem to address the most serious issues while keeping costs under control. Staff can be increased when additional Sleepers are added.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Bob Dylan

jis said:


> Would it then make sense perhaps to return the Diner to the LSL without making any menu or staff change? That would seem to address the most serious issues while keeping costs under control. Staff can be increased when additional Sleepers are added.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Does the LSL have a Chef and LSA, or does one person do the Heat and Eat like on the Card and the CONO?


----------



## PVD

Since there are only a few items that need the grill, the menu is not hugely different. A few items that are reheats would be finished on the grill and that would probably be a bit better also. I think people tend to exaggerate the food issue. You and I have both agreed in the past that heat and serve can be quite decent, using the examples of airline In'tl first class, and even Acela FC. If I remember, on my recent trip it was LSA, Waiter, and Chef, not sure what they had in the past.


----------



## jis

I had an excellent reheated full English Breakfast including poached eggs in Virgin East Coast First Class at seat service on the way from London Kings X to Edinburgh Waverley. While getting freshly prepared stuff to reheat on the train would be tough in LD trains, Corridor Trains are a different matter. But then we simply don’t do good food on Corridor Trains anymore except in Acelas.

On this train today there were three First Class cars today, completely full. Four servers provided remarkable at seat service with endless multiple servings of tea, coffee and adult beverages, and even a second helping of food for the few that wanted it. And all this with significant turnover at each of the six stops enroute in the four hour and twenty minutes journey.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## nti1094

cpotisch said:


> nti1094 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not that it is an authoritative answer, but I just got off the Lake Shore Limited from Chicago to NYC today, be the lounge car attendant said they were expecting the diners to be back at the end of August. He also noted he had yet to be trained in. the V2 diners.
> 
> At least it seems that internally Amtrak is giving the impression the LSL will
> 
> get diners again.
> 
> As for my impression of the diner light, After just doing a trip rom
> 
> CA on the Zephyr and then LSL, I think the food in the amfleet diner light was better.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> If we have to wait until until the freaking end of August, I am gonna throw a cinder block through someone's windshield. I just don't see any reason why it could take _that _long. With 11 cars finished so far, only two more are required (and yes I know I've said this before) to reach a 20% shop margin plus the 11 consists. Though Amtrak management is slow to change, LSL ridership and sales are definitely hindered by the diner-lites. Management may not care about the customer, but they do about the bottom line, and the longer the LSL is kept this way, the longer ridership and revenue continue to suffer. In short, sooner is better for both Amtrak and it's passengers, so once equipment permits it, the LSL 'should' receive it's dining car relatively quickly. CAF's two-a-month goal has been met for the past four months, so I would say that the 12th and 13th diners' delivery _and_ completion at Hialeah can be expected by the end of December. Beyond that, I have no idea.
Click to expand...

Sorry I meant this PAST August. He said the service staff was under the impression fromtheir supervisors it was supposed to happen then.

But yes, next August seems to be more reasonable.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Can we keep this civil please? Even if you disagree with what I say, I have been pretty respectful here, and it is unnecessary to say:"Where are you getting this 20% shop margin from? What relevance does that have? Who said that was a deciding factor in deciding diner car allotments?...What proof are you offering to back up your statement regarding ridership and sales being hindered by the diner-lites? What makes you think ridership is suffering solely because it doesn't have a full diner? What makes you think revenue is suffering?"
> 
> ​Thank you.


I am not being disrespectful at this time. I'm merely seeking follow up to YOUR statements. You have brought up this shop margin more than once. I'm interested in knowing what it means and why you've brought it up on more than one occasion.

Additionally, you stated and I quote "* LSL ridership and sales are definitely hindered by the diner-lites. Management may not care about the customer, but they do about the bottom line, and the longer the LSL is kept this way, the longer ridership and revenue continue to suffer.*.

I'm not sure why you find it disrespectful for someone to ask what you're basing these statements on? Are they facts? Are they opinions? Are you getting them from Amtrak's financial sheets?

These are reasonable questions to your statements.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we keep this civil please? Even if you disagree with what I say, I have been pretty respectful here, and it is unnecessary to say:"Where are you getting this 20% shop margin from? What relevance does that have? Who said that was a deciding factor in deciding diner car allotments?...What proof are you offering to back up your statement regarding ridership and sales being hindered by the diner-lites? What makes you think ridership is suffering solely because it doesn't have a full diner? What makes you think revenue is suffering?"
> 
> ​Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not being disrespectful at this time. I'm merely seeking follow up to YOUR statements. You have brought up this shop margin more than once. I'm interested in knowing what it means and why you've brought it up on more than one occasion.
> 
> Additionally, you stated and I quote "* LSL ridership and sales are definitely hindered by the diner-lites. Management may not care about the customer, but they do about the bottom line, and the longer the LSL is kept this way, the longer ridership and revenue continue to suffer.*.
> 
> I'm not sure why you find it disrespectful for someone to ask what you're basing these statements on? Are they facts? Are they opinions? Are you getting them from Amtrak's financial sheets?
> 
> These are reasonable questions to your statements.
Click to expand...

Amtrak _has _kept a 20% shop margin at the respective crew bases for most long distance trains (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/businessplanning/2012-Amtrak-Fleet-Strategy-v3.1-%2003-29-12.pdf - find on page 'planned shop'). I have brought that up I believe 3 (maybe 4) times over the course of 17 pages on this forum. I have mentioned the 20% and 13 diners when new diners have been delivered, for two main reasons:

a) New posters or viewers may have entered the forum since

b) With each car that gets into Amtrak's hands, that gives us a more accurate timeframe about upcoming cars

Once the Silver Meteor and Crescent have been fully outfitted with Viewliner diners, the question is "What will they do with the next cars?" The LSL lost it's dining car do to Heritage shortages and V-II delays:

https://akronrrclub.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/amtrak-describes-removal-of-dining-cars-from-lake-shore-limited-as-temporary-measure/

http://www.timesunion.com/tuplus-business/article/Amtrak-replaces-dining-cars-used-on-Lake-Shore-8404195.php)

If that was why they ditched the dining car, sufficient equipment should make for it's return, and the shop margin would tell us how many cars are needed. Bear in mind that Amtrak has had to offer lower LSL sleeper fares since the diners' removal, so while there are lower costs in operating a diner-lite, that has been more than offset by lower fares. Even _with_ fare cuts to the LSL, the Capitol Ltd has now been made a more appealing option to many NYP-CHI pax, and that train has already been frequently overwhelmed during peak seasons anyway.

Though I admit there hasn't been significantly lower ridership on the LSL, sleepers have not been selling out as frequently, and combined with the lower fares per passenger, that does make for lower revenue.

The Star has been able to ditch a whole locomotive by using only a cafe car (something that saves a lot of money), but the LSL has not been able to lose any. The Card operates without waiters (SCAs are used) and has a Cafe/Diner combo, which also makes for major cost cutting.

This is why the Lake Shore Limited will be the first train to get it's diner back.


----------



## PVD

The numbers that I have seen do not support the notion that sleeper revenue per rider is deteriorating on the LSL. If less days are selling out, it may indicate more days that were lightly sold are selling better, the money has to be coming from some where. If the number of passengers is relatively close, fares can not be eroding to any great degree since the revenue is relatively stable.. That being said, I support your notion that the LSL is likely to get its diner back in the not terribly distant future, but I certainly would not try to pin it down in any definitive fashion, there is too much that can go wrong.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> The numbers that I have seen do not support the notion that sleeper revenue per rider is deteriorating on the LSL. If less days are selling out, it may indicate more days that were lightly sold are selling better, the money has to be coming from some where. If the number of passengers is relatively close, fares can not be eroding to any great degree since the revenue is relatively stable.. That being said, I support your notion that the LSL is likely to get its diner back in the not terribly distant future, but I certainly would not try to pin it down in any definitive fashion, there is too much that can go wrong.


Unfortunately, I was not able to find the an article or page that specifically states that revenue has dropped. That said, the roomette low bucket for two people from NYP-CHI dropped about $85 after the diner-lite was announced. In addition, having looked at fares very frequently both before and after July (when it was announced), roomettes have been selling out slower, with low bucket fares being shown very frequently. In retrospect I should have found more physical proof for that, but from personal experience, LSL sleepers do seem to be cheaper and more available than they were before. And as I said, LSL diner-lite uses more staff than the Card, so cost-savings for Amtrak on that end aren't as significant.


----------



## PVD

I was basing my thoughts on the Oct-Aug of 16 comparison to Oct -Aug of 17 from Amtrak financials. Anecdotal sampling of the fare base or buckets don't present a true view, because they don't reflect what the actual yield is. As an example if I sell one or two for less, but two or 3 for more, or if selling a few more for less that otherwise may have been empty, my yield may still be greater. Looking at the average revenue per sleeper passenger presented, I don't see the erosion.


----------



## TiBike

Virgin's 4:20 from London to Edinburgh with first class food, versus the Starlight's 12 hours from Oakland to LA with leftovers from Dennys? Lack of diners doesn't seem to be Amtrak's big problem.



jis said:


> I had an excellent reheated full English Breakfast including poached eggs in Virgin East Coast First Class at seat service on the way from London Kings X to Edinburgh Waverley. While getting freshly prepared stuff to reheat on the train would be tough in LD trains, Corridor Trains are a different matter. But then we simply don’t do good food on Corridor Trains anymore except in Acelas.
> 
> On this train today there were three First Class cars today, completely full. Four servers provided remarkable at seat service with endless multiple servings of tea, coffee and adult beverages, and even a second helping of food for the few that wanted it. And all this with significant turnover at each of the six stops enroute in the four hour and twenty minutes journey.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Thirdrail7 said:


> Where are you getting this 20% shop margin from? What relevance does that have? Who said that was a deciding factor in deciding diner car allotments?


The 20% shop margin is a well repeated statement from several Amtrak officials. What it has to do with the new diner car assignment is unknown. Its a completely debatable number to begin with. However its a simple number for simple questions on capacity issues.

As for allotments for the new diner equipment this is a non issue for me. I will get excited about the sleepers, and maybe the placement of the crew bags-sleeper cars.

Show me the revenue allotments!!!


----------



## west point

We know that some Heritage diners were sent thru BEE & NOL for undisclosed work . Once there are 13 V-2 diners fully available for unrestricted service "maybe" Amtrak might consider assigning Heritage diners to the LSL with spares in CHI and SSY ? Then when 4 or 5 more V-2 diners in unrestricted service "maybe" Heritage diners on Star ? IMHO probably not ?


----------



## Acela150

I'm honestly astonished that multiple people are calling out ThirdRail on something that he would have solid information on. If anyone could verify the information as true or untrue it's ThirdRail.


----------



## west point

Agree -- From other sources that this poster never quotes 3rd rail is spot on. He certainly know more than this poster !

EDIT. since this poster always triples checks he never posts news except own observation. Also quick to admit wron g !


----------



## MikefromCrete

Third Rail has the inside scoop. Just about everybody else is just speculating.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> I'm honestly astonished that multiple people are calling out ThirdRail on something that he would have solid information on. If anyone could verify the information as true or untrue it's ThirdRail.


That's because they come in here and don't "get to know the lay of the land" before sprouting off. And probably don't pay much attention to others posts except when the posts contradict what they posted.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

jis said:


> I had an excellent reheated full English Breakfast including poached eggs in Virgin East Coast First Class at seat service on the way from London Kings X to Edinburgh Waverley. While getting freshly prepared stuff to reheat on the train would be tough in LD trains, Corridor Trains are a different matter. But then we simply dont do good food on Corridor Trains anymore except in Acelas.
> 
> On this train today there were three First Class cars today, completely full. Four servers provided remarkable at seat service with endless multiple servings of tea, coffee and adult beverages, and even a second helping of food for the few that wanted it. And all this with significant turnover at each of the six stops enroute in the four hour and twenty minutes journey.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


On an English train, isnt a larger portion of food a form of punishment?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Thanks to Blue, Acela and West Point for the votes of confidence but I'm going to take the post below and run with it:



MikefromCrete said:


> Third Rail has the inside scoop. Just about everybody else is just speculating.


I have a lot to say on various matters but I have to hold back to a certain level. I will ask the mods to indulge me a little here as there is no real thread (with the possible exception of the Richard Anderson thread) that would fit this post. I will tie this back to the LSL and Viewliners.

First of all, I don't really have a problem with people questioning my posts. I don't know everything. Indeed, as the regime change continues, I lose access to things (or people) I can readily put my hands on. I make very few posts on any of the boards I used to frequent. There is a reason for that. I like this board because the vast majority of you are the actual passengers! 

As such, I am interested in what you have to say. I am interested in the way you think because it is my position that no matter what position I hold, my job boils down to passenger services. No matter what you do, you job is based on moving the passengers and I have been quite vocal in my observation that a lot of people tied to the company don't realize it. I'm not sure some people (the IT department as an example) realizes that trains run after 4pm, on weekends or on holidays...if they realize they run at all.

Then, there are those who (in my opinion) move "equipment" instead of people. It shows with some of the moves that are made. The older mentality was to move the "people." However, that comes with "costs." If you're like me (which is why I and my ilk were elbowed aside), you took pride in getting the last person home..by cab, bus, ordering a crew to operate an extra, telling them to stay with it and bringing the equipment back when the mission is completed. This is because passenger services trumped costs in my mind. A happy passenger (and some people are still never happy) is a returning passenger. They just want to get where they are going.

However, those times have change because of something that happens. It boils down to one word:

Adaptation.

People adapt quite quickly. We may complain, carp, whine but in the end, we cope and adapt. The trains used to run like clockwork. They don't anymore. The passengers adapted. The train is an hour late? The passengers adapted to the point they don't even really expect on time performance. They've adapted. Let's close some stations and cut services! It may not be a great idea, but the passengers will adapt. As such, why spend money (you don't have) increasing your costs when people have shown their willingness and ability to adapt?

When I had a degree of sway, the mentality was moving the people. Now, it is cost effectiveness. I find that there is degree of conflicting agenda when these two mix. The group that didn't pay attention to the numbers are long gone, being bought out or elbowed aside (cough cough.) This is why when

cpotisch started mentioning ridership and revenue loss, I wanted to know where that came from. We don't know who he is. I remember when KnightRider came around. He tried to tell someone (as a guest) that the 8400 wasn't in WAS. People were reluctant to believe him because he was new. However, he/she was 100% correct. So, I pay attention to everyone. We can learn a lot from each other here...which is why I post here.

Let's start reigning this rambling post in!

This is the bottom line. We have corporate changes occurring. Now, I can say with certainty there are certain agendas (customer services, safety,discipline, cost controls) that are clearly being pursued. There are certain interests that are clearly being contemplated (seating plans, uniformity.) We will find out more after next calendar begins. I do note a few things. We have heard a great deal about infrastructure, the NEC, state supported services, and the various plans to deliver these services to the average person that is looking to go from "here to there"(hence the website debacle) This is what is to be expected when you have airline people in charge. We've been through this before and we know the deal. However, it has been unusually quiet on the Long Distance front. When you try to get answers, they are not readily available. There does not appear to be a discernible "clear path." Perhaps they are in the process of working on it right now. Our CEO wanted to upgrade cars and quickly found out how the finances work over here! Obviously, you need a pecking order! That's all well and good. However, when you start asking "what should we do with these cars," and there isn't an enthusiastic "prepare the LSL", it is worthy of note.

As such, Mr. Mikefromcrete, a lot of "insiders" are just speculating as well. This is why I am so interested in the numbers. If ridership hasn't suffered on the LSL and revenue hasn't suffered, they may not return the dining cars. They may say "the passengers seem to have adapted" and we can save 4 million (as an example). As much as people are willing to believe the Star was about cost control, the ball started rolling when they realized the diners were not forthcoming and there were no investments in the heritage fleet(take a look at the financial link posted above.) It was"'an experiment" that achieved(?) the financial results they allegedly desired. The winter consist plan was an "experiment." Combining a corridor train with a chronically late LD train was supposed to be an experiment. Neroden PROVED that ridership dropped after the first year but they still made it a permanent change. Apparently, the desired cost results were achieved. The remaining passengers adapted and numbers drop was obviously not enough to justify reinstating a separate train.

The same thing could occur with the LSL which is why I stated, it is too early to tell. Someone may like what they see. It is quite clear that costs will dictate the policy. Maybe they can shake some cost out of the OBS crews and add them to the Cardinal and Star. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll convert them.

It is all speculation at this point.

This was clearly a hijack and I apologize. Move it where you feel it fits.


----------



## A Voice

Acela150 said:


> I'm honestly astonished that multiple people are calling out ThirdRail on something that he would have solid information on. If anyone could verify the information as true or untrue it's ThirdRail.





AmtrakBlue said:


> That's because they come in here and don't "get to know the lay of the land" before sprouting off. And probably don't pay much attention to others posts except when the posts contradict what they posted.


I'm consistently amazed at the amount of false information that gets passed around on railroad forums. People take the (often very) limited information most of us have access to and make (unsupported) inferences, speculation, and not a few wild guesses to arrive at definitive conclusions. I've read how Amtrak has no intention of retiring the original Acela trainsets, that they have a "signed contract" with Siemens for 150 Chargers, how much money removing dining cars would save, that nobody will ride a restored Gulf Coast service because there is a parallel interstate, and - my personal favorite - that the pipedream of a Chicago-Florida train is not possible because the rail lines pass over mountains.

I fully realize that none of us here - certainly including myself - are not sometimes guilty of the same offence, particularly when we speak on subjects other than railroading - but we are also the very people aware of the pitfalls of commonly held but erroneous positions. How many times have we heard not just a politician or "think tank" critic, but transportation planners and other officials who ought to know better, repeat the tired phrases that "passenger trains only make sense in short to medium distance corridors where they can compete with airplanes" and long-distance trains are an anachronism because "no one will ride a train from Chicago to Los Angeles".


----------



## Bob Dylan

Post of the Year! Thanks Thirdrail!


----------



## PVD

Look at how much silliness has been bantered about the NS cars and Charger locomotives that AMTRAK purchased (NOT!) They are on the NGEC, and they will operate them, but they sure as hell didn't buy them. And yet we constantly see Amtrak did this wrong or that wrong with these contracts.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail, one thing I heard a couple of times in sidebar conversations at the RPA RailNation 2017 is that all single level overnight trains will most likely get VL II Diners added to them, but the exact service provided in them may vary considerably from train to train.

Hence my idle speculation that maybe some trains will continue with reduced OBS Staff and menu even though delivered in a somewhat more attractive setting.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## jis

PVD said:


> Look at how much silliness has been bantered about the NS cars and Charger locomotives that AMTRAK purchased (NOT!) They are on the NGEC, and they will operate them, but they sure as hell didn't buy them. And yet we constantly see Amtrak did this wrong or that wrong with these contracts.


Many railfans are relatively low information, low competence, strong opinion people. They are also prone to attempt “baffling with bulls*it” a lot, and get angry if called on it. Just got to handle them gently with appropriate care [emoji57]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Thirdrail, one thing I heard a couple of times in sidebar conversations at the RPA RailNation 2017 is that all single level overnight trains will most likely get VL II Diners added to them, but the exact service provided in them may vary considerably from train to train.
> 
> Hence my idle speculation that maybe some trains will continue with reduced OBS Staff and menu even though delivered in a somewhat more attractive setting.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Thank you Jis. This fits into my cryptic:



> *Maybe they can shake some cost out of the OBS crews and add them to the Cardinal and Star. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll convert them.*
> 
> It is all speculation at this point.


The bottom line is I haven't heard of a timetable and there doesn't appear to be a rush at this point. That is likely because the outrage ( notwithstanding the posts of Tommylicious and Neroden of course!




) isn't there on a public level. The riders have adapted...for now. Who knows? Some Congressperson could say "get that train a proper diner ASAP," and it will return.

I'm not counting on it though.


----------



## jis

Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for. [emoji57]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Steve4031

I will also place a vote of confidence for third rail.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## cpotisch

Can someone tell me what special background thirdrail7 has here? I had no idea that he was extra tied-in to this stuff.


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## Green Maned Lion

A Voice said:


> I'm consistently amazed at the amount of false information that gets passed around on forums.


Fixed that for you.


cpotisch said:


> Can someone tell me what special background thirdrail7 has here? I had no idea that he was extra tied-in to this stuff.


Words fail me. I'll have to use Allan Sherman's:


AllanSherman said:


> I kept my ears open and my big mouth shut,
> 
> And I learned all the agency's scuttlebutt
> 
> I learned who was going out with whom,
> 
> And who had the keys to the powder room
> 
> For the key to the powder room you see,
> 
> Is the key to the structure of the agency


----------



## PVD

My Son The Folk Singer was one of the greatest comedy albums of all time. Gone at too young an age. But I believe he spelled his name with 2 L (Allan)


----------



## cpotisch

I wasn’t sure if he was from NARP, Amtrak, former employee, etc. As is apparent, I suck at forums.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

PVD said:


> My Son The Folk Singer was one of the greatest comedy albums of all time. Gone at too young an age. But I believe he spelled his name with 2 L (Allan)


Indeed he did.


cpotisch said:


> I wasnt sure if he was from NARP, Amtrak, former employee, etc. As is apparent, I suck at forums.


That's ok. All mistakes are an opportunity to learn.


----------



## JRR

Thirdrail, though he apologizes for being "off topic", gets my vote for best post!

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


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## cpotisch

cpotisch said:


> I wasn’t sure if he was from NARP, Amtrak, former employee, etc. As is apparent, I suck at forums.


If it is really causing a problem to have someone new to this post incorrect facts in good faith, by all means I encourage moderators to delete my posts and maintain a productive forum.

I do apologize to thirdrail for underestimating your qualifications and experience.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

jis said:


> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.


That would be my thoughts too. Would of been much better if they were built on time. Things change, the diners will find work. It will be intriguing to see what come out, and how long it will last.

.


----------



## GBNorman

jis said:


> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.


This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:

Congressman to Amtrak official;

"Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn’t sure if he was from NARP, Amtrak, former employee, etc. As is apparent, I suck at forums.
> 
> 
> 
> If it is really causing a problem to have someone new to this post incorrect facts in good faith, by all means I encourage moderators to delete my posts and maintain a productive forum.
> I do apologize to thirdrail for underestimating your qualifications and experience.
Click to expand...

No need for that at all. Water under the bridge, and hopefully a lesson learned for not only you but others that come along and read in the future.


----------



## tricia

GBNorman said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> 
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
Click to expand...

Similar explanation might be needed for the new baggage cars, as Amtrak has been eliminating checked baggage at more and more stations.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Baggage cars are buffers cars to keep the train horn as far away as possible from the passenger cars. 

Also have use as axle count cars, and Crash Barriers. 

The loss of baggage services at smaller station seem to link to the retirement of the employee who works at that station. Not sure if Amtrak just cant get anyone to apply for those jobs, or just using the retirement to end baggage service.

I wonder if the towns are ask to provide the service?


----------



## railiner

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Baggage cars are buffers cars to keep the train horn as far away as possible from the passenger cars.
> 
> Also have use as axle count cars, and Crash Barriers.
> 
> The loss of baggage services at smaller station seem to link to the retirement of the employee who works at that station. Not sure if Amtrak just cant get anyone to apply for those jobs, or just using the retirement to end baggage service.
> 
> I wonder if the towns are ask to provide the service?


Believe me, there would be absolutely no problem for Amtrak to recruit help in any capacity....


----------



## StriderGDM

Really, you think so?

You think you're going to find someone willing to volunteer at say Gastonia NC? Remember, you have to be there before the NB train arrives, so plan on showing up at midnight. And the SB doesn't come through until 3:12 AM. So are you going to stick around for 3+ hours? Or go home? And if the SB is running late? Remember, you need to show up (or have someone else show up) 365 days a year. Oh, and you need to know at the very least the basics of Amtrak baggage handling (admittedly not hard, but still something to be known).

Oh and have to be capable of lifting the baggage up to the height of the baggage car and to unload baggage. And possibly run a cart to move the baggage from the baggage car back to the waiting room.

And if baggage shows up without a passenger, secure it and be able to to provide access to it when the owner of it does finally show up.

Should be trivial, right?


----------



## GBNorman

The original 55 V-Bag order contemplated that some H-Bags would remain in service indefinitely. The 55 would be enough to cover all existing lines, but nothing left for spares.

With the order of 70, I believe the only H-Bags in "Revenue service of sorts" are those needed to meet axle counts imposrd by the CN.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I can tell you havent been an employer.


----------



## Thirdrail7

tricia said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> 
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> 
> 
> Similar explanation might be needed for the new baggage cars, as Amtrak has been eliminating checked baggage at more and more stations.
Click to expand...

Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.


----------



## TiBike

Caltrain style bike car? (In my dreams



)

)







Thirdrail7 said:


> Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.


----------



## A Voice

Thirdrail7 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> 
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> 
> 
> Similar explanation might be needed for the new baggage cars, as Amtrak has been eliminating checked baggage at more and more stations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.
Click to expand...

Hmm...does that possibly make two M & E hints recently?


----------



## tricia

Thirdrail7 said:


> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> 
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> 
> 
> Similar explanation might be needed for the new baggage cars, as Amtrak has been eliminating checked baggage at more and more stations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.
Click to expand...

Perhaps use some of the space to stock a more realistically sufficient quantity and variety of food and beverages?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

GBNorman said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
Click to expand...

Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..


----------



## CCC1007

WoodyinNYC said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..
Click to expand...

Why 5 each on the crescent and meteor?


----------



## A Voice

WoodyinNYC said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..
Click to expand...

The _Silver Meteor, Crescent_, and _Lake Shore Limited_ combined require just eleven trainsets (hence, diners), plus spares, or indeed about half the purchased fleet. Regardless, the exact numbers - half, two-thirds, whatever - aren't what matters when you're being questioned (by persons critical anyway) over ordering more cars than you have use for.

Twenty-five cars is, just for the sake of argument, about the right number to have a diner on each single-level long-distance train except the _Palmetto_ (17-19 cars, depending on a daily _Cardinal_).


----------



## jis

WoodyinNYC said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..
Click to expand...

Methinks you missed the point and went off on a random tangent. 
The Voice actually makes the relevant point quite succinctly. Bickering pointlessly about the exact number is missing the point.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

Is there any way of knowing what diners are next? Doesn't make much difference, but was just wondering.


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## Ryan

When it becomes knowable, the usual suspects will drop hints.

Go back an read the thread an you’ll see them, and get a feel for how long in advance we know.

Given that the next delivery is probably about two weeks out, we’ll probably know something shortly.


----------



## JRR

Concerning the cancellation of baggage service in Deerfield Beach, I talked to the gentleman who was doing the job at the time the service was being cancelled, he indicated that he was not losing a job as he was able to transfer into a different position, but he did indicate that there was a woman whose job status was up in the air at the time. Hopefully, she was able to transfer or find other employment.

This is just an isolated case, but from it, I think it is not unreasonable to believe that reduction in force is the chief reason behind it.

At a station such as Deerfield, it seems to me that it would be feasible to load and unload the bags using existing staffing.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


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## WoodyinNYC

jis said:


> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The _Silver Meteor, Crescent_, and _Lake Shore Limited_ combined require just eleven trainsets (hence, diners), plus spares, or indeed about half the purchased fleet. Regardless, the exact numbers - half, two-thirds, whatever - aren't what matters when you're being questioned (by persons critical anyway) over ordering more cars than you have use for.
> 
> Twenty-five cars is, just for the sake of argument, about the right number to have a diner on each single-level long-distance train except the _Palmetto_ (17-19 cars, depending on a daily _Cardinal_).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Somehow I was thinking too fast and writing too slow and failed to make sense. I arrived at the same number of currently needed diners -- 17 -- as A Voice did. That figure implies 8 diners over current need. I implied, but didn't state outright, that 17 diners in use out of 25 is not a bad number in this case.

We don't know the economics as single-level LD trains with an added sleeper in the make-up. After Amtrak has good data, it has various possibilities, not limited to

1) Add diners to other trains, such as the Pennsylvanian or the Vermonter.

2) Convert the Capitol Ltd. to single-level equipment, and send its cars west.

3) Gut rehab 4 or 5 of the surplus-and-excess diners into sleepers.

When the CAF order was announced, it was 130 cars for $300 million. (Later dollar figures were higher, including spare parts and certain future service from CAF.) We all did the quick and dirty math: $2.3 million per car. Probably much less for baggage cars, and more for diners and sleepers. But let me work with $2.3 million per car.

If A Voice and I are correct that 17 to 19 diners are needed counting spares and the Cardinal, then the "over-order" was 6 or 8 cars. At $2.3 million each, having 6 surplus and excess diners cost Amtrak almost $15 million, while 8 of them "wasted" $18 million or so. That's not a big enuff number to make the news. Remember that Cong Mica had to add up ten years -- 10 years -- of food & beverage losses to get the near-Billion big number to get attention. Less than $100 million lost is just not news in D.C.

But of course, 8 surplus and excess diners don't mean that the whole $18 million is down the drain. The cars can be recycled into sleepers (and bag-dorms) or baggage cars, and come in at a lower cost than the original 25 sleepers or diners. Wanna guess the rehabs cost another $1 million per car? That would be the wasted amount, considering that they were available at $2.3 million each not long ago. No big deal.

So relax everybody. Six or eight extra diners will not derail Amtrak's drive to operating surplus.


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## WoodyinNYC

cpotisch said:


> Is there any way of knowing what diners are next? Doesn't make much difference, but was just wondering.


We know the 25 diners are the state capital cities east of the Mississippi. An earlier comment in this thread I believe links to them.

http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-viewname.shtml#viewdiner

We also know that the deliveries started in alphabetical order, but that broke down before reaching Columbus, Concord, Dover, and Frankfort. So we got Hartford and Harrisburg to Hialeah, and Hartford worked this holiday weekend.

Counting the breakdown in alphabetical order as one of 500 things that have gone wrong with this order -- well, you said it: Doesn't make much difference.

I have no inside info. Still, I'm expecting to get Harrisburg out of Hialeah in time to see it work the coming holidays. I'm hoping we get two more diners from CAF before month end.

Then expect CAF to lose a week or two in the cycle out of Elmira due to workers getting days off from the Xmas and New Years holidays.

But as far as any forecast of the diner names in the non-alphabetical order of delivery, I think most of us imagine scenes of near chaos on the "production line" that is years past deadline. So we're grateful when any car emerges in good enuff condition to let Hialeah do the final prep. If Amtrak really only needs 17 or 19 Viewliner diners at this point in time, we're almost halfway there.


----------



## A Voice

WoodyinNYC said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Voice said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another idle speculation was it might be hard to explain to Congress why you bought 25 cars half of which you had no use for.
> 
> 
> 
> This could be a problem Amtrak could well have to address, as somebody will unlock the "Micascope" and the very point Mr. JIS noted will be heard in a Congressional Hearing room:
> Congressman to Amtrak official;
> 
> "Sir, your company that without our funding could no longer be a going concern, ordered twenty five full service Dining Cars. Yet, as you were placing that order, you had knowledge that the Simplified Dining arrangements that this Committee suggested you initiate, were resulting in significant cost reductions without a corresponding revenue loss. Would you care to explain to the American people your rationale for such a decision?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jis, C'mon. "Half" of 25 diners no use for? With 5 each to the Meteor and the Crescent, 4 to the Lake Shore Ltd, assume 3 for back-up, 17 diners will be in use or assigned as soon as we get 17 of them..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The _Silver Meteor, Crescent_, and _Lake Shore Limited_ combined require just eleven trainsets (hence, diners), plus spares, or indeed about half the purchased fleet. Regardless, the exact numbers - half, two-thirds, whatever - aren't what matters when you're being questioned (by persons critical anyway) over ordering more cars than you have use for.
> 
> Twenty-five cars is, just for the sake of argument, about the right number to have a diner on each single-level long-distance train except the _Palmetto_ (17-19 cars, depending on a daily _Cardinal_).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If A Voice and I are correct that 17 to 19 diners are needed counting spares and the Cardinal, then the "over-order" was 6 or 8 cars. At $2.3 million each, having 6 surplus and excess diners cost Amtrak almost $15 million, while 8 of them "wasted" $18 million or so. That's not a big enuff number to make the news. Remember that Cong Mica had to add up ten years -- 10 years -- of food & beverage losses to get the near-Billion big number to get attention. Less than $100 million lost is just not news in D.C.
Click to expand...

The 17-car number would be the number required daily for service on each of the seventeen single-level trainsets (_Meteor, Lake Shore, Crescent_, and assumes a diner is restored to the _Silver Star_ and added to the _Cardinal_). Spare cars are necessary to allow for bad-ordered equipment and regular maintenance, which essentially accounts for the remainder. *If* the diners are fully deployed to eastern long-distance (overnight) trains - which we don't know yet - there was no "over order" and there won't be any excess diners to worry over. *Only* *if* 91/92 and the _Cardinal_ remain diner-less, then there would indeed be unneeded cars to potentially be accounted for. Which, of course, was the original point.


----------



## west point

Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.

Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends


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## cpotisch

west point said:


> Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.
> 
> Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends


What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.


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## CCC1007

cpotisch said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.
> 
> Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.
Click to expand...

First, always check your numbers before posting, as there are fewer double deckers (~500) than single level cars (~700).
Second, converting the capital limited would free up some equipment for use on the western trains.

Hope this helps with your understanding of the situation.


----------



## Ryan

How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?


----------



## A Voice

CCC1007 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.
> 
> Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, always check your numbers before posting, as there are fewer double deckers (~500) than single level cars (~700).
> Second, converting the capital limited would free up some equipment for use on the western trains.
> 
> Hope this helps with your understanding of the situation.
Click to expand...

Key word is "spare" rather than total number of cars extant. Amtrak is indeed more short of single-level cars - and particularly coaches - than it is Superliner equipment.


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## Thirdrail7

tricia said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tricia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Similar explanation might be needed for the new baggage cars, as Amtrak has been eliminating checked baggage at more and more stations.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Perhaps use some of the space to stock a more realistically sufficient quantity and variety of food and beverages?
Click to expand...

I can't think of a better place to store food. In a baggage car tat doesn't have a controlled environment...other than closing a door or a few roof vents. I'm sure the FDA would love that.



A Voice said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh...I'm sure they'll find a use for the leftover space that will justify the purchase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...does that possibly make two M & E hints recently?
Click to expand...










cpotisch said:


> Is there any way of knowing what diners are next? Doesn't make much difference, but was just wondering.





Ryan said:


> When it becomes knowable, the usual suspects will drop hints.
> 
> Go back an read the thread an you’ll see them, and get a feel for how long in advance we know.
> 
> Given that the next delivery is probably about two weeks out, we’ll probably know something shortly.














Exits almost confirmed.


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## west point

345 ? 3 days, 4 cars, 5 ?? no way ? 3 diners, 4 bag dorms, 5 sleepers no not way !!!


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## CCC1007

west point said:


> 345 ? 3 days, 4 cars, 5 ?? no way ? 3 diners, 4 bag dorms, 5 sleepers no not way !!!


My best guess is the 345th day of the year, or Monday December 11, 2017.

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


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## StriderGDM

Oh cool, then a slightly late Birthday present for me!


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## cpotisch

A Voice said:


> CCC1007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let us not consider the 26 (or 25 ) diners too many. Previous posts of Capitol & CNO going single level is one possibility. Another is Crescent extending to Ft. Worth.
> 
> Speculation --- Unused diners could be substituted for AM-1 lounge cars allowing for old lounge cars life to be extended. Also provides alternative for a diner that goes bad order enroute. When the additional 25 V-2 sleepers arrive in service a second diner may be needed for overflow passengers that can be served from 1st diner. If the SM ( 4 this Thanksgiving sold out ) and Crescent ( probably not until ATL station problem solved )) have many extra sleepers maybe a full second diner will be needed for high traffic times. -------- Speculation ends
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the point of a single-level Cap? There are more spare Superliners than Viewliners.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, always check your numbers before posting, as there are fewer double deckers (~500) than single level cars (~700).
> Second, converting the capital limited would free up some equipment for use on the western trains.
> 
> Hope this helps with your understanding of the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Key word is "spare" rather than total number of cars extant. Amtrak is indeed more short of single-level cars - and particularly coaches - than it is Superliner equipment.
Click to expand...

Thank you for helping me clarify. That's what I meant.


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## Ryan

Ryan said:


> How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?


My question specified spares and remains valid.


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## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?
> 
> 
> 
> My question specified spares and remains valid.
Click to expand...

I was just asking what the motivation would be to make the Cap (and CONO) single-level, since currently there aren't many spare Viewliner I sleepers. It will probably be a while until we see the V-II sleepers, so I was asking what the current push towards that would be. Then CCC1007 responded that it would free up equipment on the west coast.


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## west point

With the Siemens single level cars to soon be delivered any speculation on how freed up current equipment will be allocated is just that -----Speculation.


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## tommylicious

How soon before LSL gets a VLII diner?


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## Just-Thinking-51

tommylicious said:


> How soon before LSL gets a VLII diner?


Hold your breath. Talk only, no plans yet. Crew training, mechanical training, and food supplie changes needed first.
Also the last 10 or so pages cover this matter in detail.


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## Just-Thinking-51

west point said:


> With the Siemens single level cars to soon be delivered any speculation on how freed up current equipment will be allocated is just that -----Speculation.


Running bet is scrap for the horizon cars. The few superliners will find work as spares in Chicago. Unknown about the California Superliners, been wonder if they ever can return to Amtrak after the state rebuilt them.


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## WoodyinNYC

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many spares of each do you think Amtrak has, and how do you think that will change with the completion of the VL2 order?
> 
> 
> 
> My question specified spares and remains valid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was just asking what the motivation would be to make the Cap (and CONO) single-level, since currently there aren't many spare Viewliner I sleepers. It will probably be a while until we see the V-II sleepers, so I was asking what the current push towards that would be. Then CCC1007 responded that it would free up equipment on the west coast.
Click to expand...

You're tripping over yourself because you aren't considering the timings. Amtrak is so desperately short of passenger equipment now, that is NOW, that it almost can't make a move. That will begin to change soon, but how much, how soon, and when?

As you note, Amtrak is getting 25 Viewliner-2 diners and sleepers. If no diners are returned to the Star, there'd be enuff to outfit three new trainsets for the _Capitol Ltd_ plus a spare.

Except, of course, there'd be a need for sleepers. But at the tail end of the CAF order, after the existing Eastern LD trains each get an additional sleeper, there'd be enuff new Viewliner sleepers for new _Capitol Ltd_ trains.

Let's see. Deliveries of the remaining V-2 diners will take us deep into 2018. Then probably a pause before deliveries of the next car type begin. So 10 bag-dorms could take us into early 2019. Delivery of two (2) V-2 sleepers a month seems optimistic, but even at that rate, the CAF order won't be finished until 2021, or later.

Even so, expect further delays beyond the last V-2 delivered. Amtrak will have to make various calculations, such as estimating the usable life remaining on the current fleet of 50 Viewliner-1 sleepers. One possibility would be to rehab and upgrade the V-1s to V-2 standards, removing the in-roomette toilets and ensuring they can run at 125 mph. With 50 cars in the fleet, if the upgraded cars roll out of Beech Grove (or wherever) at two per month like the V-2s out of Elmira, we're looking at two more years before Amtrak has the full Viewliner fleet in good working order. So 2023?

Well, nice thing about 2023 for getting a few spare Viewliners, is that the Siemens order for 137 single-level cars could begin arriving about the same time. A few Siemens cars could displace the handful of odd Amfleets doing stop-gap work in the Midwest and California. The displaced Amfleets would go east, and could potentially be used in those new trainsets we were putting together for the _Capitol Ltd _route.

The Siemens order will displace about 90 or so Horizon cars from the Midwest. Without much cost, some could be buffed up to use instead of the three or four pieces of Superliner equipment on the _Heartland Flyer _(Oklahoma City-Ft Worth). If or when enuff Superliner equipment can be scrounged, several sets may be needed for the proposal to run *daily *on the _Texas Eagle_ route (CHI-San Antonio) continuing on the _Sunset Ltd _route to L.A. That change would leave New Orleans-Houston-San Antonio served by a corridor shuttle that would also use Horizon cars, while the Superliner cars that used to run here would be running CHI-L.A.

The elephants in the room are the orders to replace ~700 single-level cars and ~500 bilevels. Billions of dollars. If doing two multi-Billion equipment orders at the same time seems to be just too much, it's easy to imagine the single-level order being judged more urgent. In that event, enuff new single-level cars could join the fleet to complete those three trains (plus spares) to serve the _Capitol Ltd _route; the C_ap'_s Superliners would be sent west where they would still be waiting their turn for new equipment. Likewise for the _City of New Orleans._

So when is this going to happen? Was that what you were asking? LOL. Every step is speculative. But it does seem possible that Amtrak is a few steps -- a few Billions and a few years -- away from actually having enuff equipment for the first time in its history.


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## west point

Here and other sites seem to proffer that once the V-2 sleepers are fully active that Amtrak will withdraw a like number for overhaul / modifications. That seems wildly over speculative. Probably more likely 3 -4 at most will be removed from service at a time for said modifications. That will give Amtrak at least 70 sleepers for continuing service.

A problem that we have neglected is the possibility of much more equipment. There will be more locos. As well we are expecting another ~ 48 V-2s, 130 Siemens cars, 28 Acela-2 train sets. ( What happens to the AC-1s is still only speculation ). All this equipment will require additional overnight storage locations ( especially tight in the NEC ), more assistant conductors, more OBS personnel, and most important more maintenance persons. Will check for the current number of maintenance persons. Just percentage wise about 20% more ?

First we have no idea of the various ages of present maintenance persons and expected retirement times. Second there is not a very good supply of possible new hire maintenance persons who know anything about passenger equipment - locos yes cars no. Have not heard of any schools or apprentice programs to fill the vacancies that will be occurring. Aero space programs may provide some interior skilled persons.

EDIT Best determination of mechanical and engineering persons is 3300 so maybe ? 660 additional persons not counting retirements.


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## Green Maned Lion

watching mindless speculation is painful.


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## A Voice

Green Maned Lion said:


> watching mindless speculation is painful.


The forum doesn't have a 'like' button, so I'll quote it instead.


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## jis

Actually it is all these wannabe Amtrak CEOs.






Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


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## Ziv

In the absence of real news, deliveries or announcements, in my eyes prognostication is better than ambivalence. There are worse things to do than put your guesses about what will happen out there for others to agree with or disagree with.

If it weren't for guesstimates, this thread would be about 4 pages long, not 54. I guess you can look at the glass as being half full or half empty. ;-)


----------



## tricia

Ziv said:


> In the absence of real news, deliveries or announcements, in my eyes prognostication is better than ambivalence. There are worse things to do than put your guesses about what will happen out there for others to agree with or disagree with.
> 
> If it weren't for guesstimates, this thread would be about 4 pages long, not 54. I guess you can look at the glass as being half full or half empty. ;-)


Or, at 54 pages, perhaps overflowing.


----------



## Ryan

Welcome to page 55!


----------



## A Voice

Ziv said:


> In the absence of real news, deliveries or announcements, in my eyes prognostication is better than ambivalence. There are worse things to do than put your guesses about what will happen out there for others to agree with or disagree with.
> 
> If it weren't for guesstimates, this thread would be about 4 pages long, not 54. I guess you can look at the glass as being half full or half empty. ;-)


I don't disagree, but there is a critical difference between "_mindless_ speculation" and _completely baseless_ prognostication as opposed to predictions (or even educated guesses) based on some manner of semi-confirmed factual information. The person who attempts to piece the puzzle together (even though they're missing more pieces than they have) at least has some basis for their predictions.


----------



## keelhauled

jis said:


> Actually it is all these wannabe Amtrak CEOs.


What? You mean there's more to the job than drawing lines on maps and reading old timetables? Guess I'm going to have to take a second look at my résumé.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I would never want to be Amtrak CEO. You get thrust into an office with more chains on what you can do than leads in a sleep apnea test, far less tools than you need, constantly flipping between a Hobsons choice and a catch-22.

And the every blithering idiot of a Railfan, or self importan egoist of a transit advocate second guesses what few dance moves you can make, while congress hauls you over the coals for a mess often largely of their own making.

I love problems. I love extremely difficult problems. But not ones that are unsolvable.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ziv said:


> In the absence of real news, deliveries or announcements, in my eyes prognostication is better than ambivalence. There are worse things to do than put your guesses about what will happen out there for others to agree with or disagree with.
> 
> If it weren't for guesstimates, this thread would be about 4 pages long, not 54. I guess you can look at the glass as being half full or half empty. ;-)


This!


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## cpotisch

What is the point of retrofitting V-Is with V-II interiors? The only point I see in that would be to stop having to maintain roomette toilets, but wouldn't the cost of refurbishment probably be greater than those savings, right?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> What is the point of retrofitting V-Is with V-II interiors? The only point I see in that would be to stop having to maintain roomette toilets, but wouldn't the cost of refurbishment probably be greater than those savings, right?


One significant issue is that apparently there is at least some potential loss of customers because the new generation of customers are repelled by the WC in the room.

Even back in the days, in room toilets were often hidden away under the berth so no one had to develop as intimate a physical relationship with it while sleeping, as one gets to do in a Roomette. Also, there still tended to be a shared toilet at the end of the car.

But of course, given how scarce Sleeper inventory is compared to demand probably a bit of customer inconvenience does not matter that much.

The second issue is in having two relatively small but distinct inventory of cars with different layouts that have to be handled by the reservation system and consist construction and maintenance. Having a single somewhat larger inventory of cars all with the same layout will be much easier to handle.

So just savings calculated in a simple minded way is not what it is all about.


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## StanJazz

How would you like it if you were in the last roomette in a V-I and due to the car being bad ordered it was replaced with a V-II and your room # did not exist. Coach for you.


----------



## Ryan

Additionally, the VL1's are getting a bit on the worn out side. They need to be refurbished, and the best way to do that is to use the same interior fittings that you're already procuring.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> Additionally, the VL1's are getting a bit on the worn out side. They need to be refurbished, and the best way to do that is to use the same interior fittings that you're already procuring.


This!


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## west point

However there may still be unused V-1 interiors for V-1 refurbishment?. That would be a waste of money that our congressional critters would jump on .


----------



## daybeers

StanJazz said:


> How would you like it if you were in the last roomette in a V-I and due to the car being bad ordered it was replaced with a V-II and your room # did not exist. Coach for you.


What do you mean?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

daybeers said:


> StanJazz said:
> 
> 
> 
> How would you like it if you were in the last roomette in a V-I and due to the car being bad ordered it was replaced with a V-II and your room # did not exist. Coach for you.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean?
Click to expand...

Viewliner IIs have one less roomette than Viewliner Is due to the space for a public restroom, so if a train was scheduled to use a Viewliner I but used a Viewliner II instead there would be one less room, resulting in a passenger being forced into coach if the train was sold out.
Sent from my SM-J327P using Amtrak Forum mobile app


----------



## StanJazz

The V-I cars have 12 roomettes plus the SCA's room while the V-II have only 11 rooms plus the SCA. The space for the missing room is used by the new restrooms. Where would they put you if your ticket said room 12 but when you got on the train there was no room 12 because the last room was 11.


----------



## stappend

I would think short term a train consist would need to be all the same type, or it would be a nightmare. I can't believe that Amtrak can predict 100% what cars are going to be on a consist 6, 9, 11 months down the road.


----------



## jis

One alternative is to sell only 11 rooms in each Viewliner Car and if a Viewliner I shows up in the consist on a particular day, sell it as a last minute upgrade for cheap to the first comer.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> One alternative is to sell only 11 rooms in each Viewliner Car and if a Viewliner I shows up in the consist on a particular day, sell it as a last minute upgrade for cheap to the first comer.


Could they send the SCA to a coach seat instead of a revenue customer? Or does the VL2's SCA room feature alert panels or other antiquated single purpose concepts like the SL fleet?


----------



## Ryan

west point said:


> However there may still be unused V-1 interiors for V-1 refurbishment?.


What makes you think that this is the case?



Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> One alternative is to sell only 11 rooms in each Viewliner Car and if a Viewliner I shows up in the consist on a particular day, sell it as a last minute upgrade for cheap to the first comer.
> 
> 
> 
> Could they send the SCA to a coach seat instead of a revenue customer? Or does the VL2's SCA room feature alert panels or other antiquated single purpose concepts like the SL fleet?
Click to expand...

We already have enough complaints about absentee SCAs, without taking away their space in the car. Would you expect them to stand in the hallway for 18 hours a day to be available to their passengers, or for the passengers to have to walk through several cars to get assistance?


----------



## JRR

I guess my wife and I are the odd balls here but the toilet in the roomette is a plus for us. After 52 years together we are over any “ shyness” with each other and, in the middle of the night, neither of us wants to struggle to get dressed and wander down the train looking for a restroom.

While the bedroom with a shower is better, the Viewliner roomette is a more economical alternative.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## west point

Dec 11th sounds better but what about the tag ?


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> One alternative is to sell only 11 rooms in each Viewliner Car and if a Viewliner I shows up in the consist on a particular day, sell it as a last minute upgrade for cheap to the first comer.
> 
> 
> 
> Could they send the SCA to a coach seat instead of a revenue customer? Or does the VL2's SCA room feature alert panels or other antiquated single purpose concepts like the SL fleet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We already have enough complaints about absentee SCAs, without taking away their space in the car. Would you expect them to stand in the hallway for 18 hours a day to be available to their passengers, or for the passengers to have to walk through several cars to get assistance?
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting we take their rooms away just for the heck of it. I'm suggesting that on those (hopefully rare) occasions when an inoperative VL1 is replaced with a VL2 at the last minute we consider having the SCA take one for the team rather than forcing a paid and ticketed passenger to give up their room involuntarily. If I was paid up and ticketed in a sleeper and there was a last minute change I'd much rather retain my room with far less frequent attention from the SCA than be sent to a coach seat with a travel credit on my account.


----------



## PVD

OBS get a room. That isn't changing. Nobody should expect an employee to work a full day without sleep time. It is a waste to even speculate on the subject.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

west point said:


> Dec 11th sounds better but what about the tag ?


If you referring to the 3B - that's part of the picture that he copied off the Internet - a John Deere 345 model decal


----------



## Steve4031

PVD said:


> OBS get a room. That isn't changing. Nobody should expect an employee to work a full day without sleep time. It is a waste to even speculate on the subject.


Agreed. Despite oyr complaining about many missing scas, we do need to remember that these are people too. Think about your favorite sleeping car attendant. Would you want thus person to "take one for the team"? Additionally this would be a violation of the union contract.


----------



## neroden

The railroad should not be run for the convenience of lazy staff members. In regular service, isolate the Viewliner IIs to one set of trains and the Viewliner Is to another set, sell all the rooms which are not assigned to staff, and reassign the available rooms in the database if there has to be a last-minute substitution -- something they already do if they're short on cars. This means that the operations department has to bother to actually do their jobs, but they are supposed to be paid to do that.

Speaking of which, coach attendants have a room, apparently. It is reasonable for them to also have a seat to sit in when monitoring the coach, or indeed a pair of seats. The current habit of many coach attendants of occupying *eight* seats per car for no particularly good reason, and chasing all passengers out of them, is ridiculous and should not be permitted.

Amtrak is trying to run full trains of paid passengers, not give luxury accomodations to staff.


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the point of retrofitting V-Is with V-II interiors? The only point I see in that would be to stop having to maintain roomette toilets, but wouldn't the cost of refurbishment probably be greater than those savings, right?
> 
> 
> 
> One significant issue is that apparently there is at least some potential loss of customers because the new generation of customers are repelled by the WC in the room.\
Click to expand...

Yeah, the in-room toilet is apparently pretty unpopular. And it's high-maintenance. The retrofit probably actually *would* pay for itself.


----------



## neroden

StanJazz said:


> How would you like it if you were in the last roomette in a V-I and due to the car being bad ordered it was replaced with a V-II and your room # did not exist. Coach for you.


Happens to a *dozen* people at once when the existing Viewliner I is bad-ordered and replaced with nothing. :shrug: Which is a lot worse.

(Heck, I've seen people standing-room-only in the cafe car because Amtrak was short of coach seats.)

I don't think this "one room shortage" possibility is a problem.

It would literally only occur under total sellout conditions (zero other rooms to move you to), which usually have advance warning, like around Thanksgiving, and Amtrak can take some extra preventative maintenance.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

PVD said:


> OBS get a room. That isn't changing. Nobody should expect an employee to work a full day without sleep time. It is a waste to even speculate on the subject.


Who said anything about taking away their sleep time? If sleeping in Amtrak's coach seats is so bad that no employee should ever be asked to endure it then maybe Amtrak should do something about making it more conducive to actual sleeping.

Or they could consider doing what the airlines did by locating employee rest areas in otherwise vacant or lightly used crawlspaces. With a bit of redesign a permanent non-rev roomette could be modified to sleep two employees instead of one. It's also possible that Amtrak's inefficient HVAC and electrical equipment from the 1980's could be replaced with smaller designs in rooftop locations leading to more recoverable areas to convert into additional employee rest stations and freeing up more revenue space.



Steve4031 said:


> Agreed. Despite oyr complaining about many missing scas, we do need to remember that these are people too. Think about your favorite sleeping car attendant. Would you want thus person to "take one for the team"? Additionally this would be a violation of the union contract.


I don't want _anyone_ to be kicked out of a sleeper. But sometimes it may happen anyway for maintenance or operational reasons. That being said, it's true I didn't consider that the union probably does have a priority resolution clause which ensures employee needs will almost always trump those of revenue passengers.


----------



## PVD

One of the primary benefits of the bag dorrms. (eventually)


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Harrisburg has left the yard. First revenue trip to NYP today via the Meteor.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

While I would never suggest an employee be fully deprived of a room, there is no reason (other than a somewhat over generous union contract) that in emergent circumstances, an SCA or other employee could not double bunk (they are two person rooms!) with another same gender employee.

They are people, sure, at least most of them. Some are closer to demonic than people. But they are working and getting paid, and a certain level of compromise under such an emergent circumstance as the unforseen loss of a revenue room is perfectly reasonable.


----------



## PVD

Doubling up in an emergency seems reasonable.

The characterizations by some that a roomette or group of seats is a "luxury accommodation" is laughable. That being said, over occupancy by staff of seats or probably worse, table space is a longstanding failure of line management, and is an area where they could do quite a bit better.


----------



## PRR 60

I believe the attendant's right to a single-occupancy room for sleeping is written into their union contract.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

It is; but that is a hold over from the time roomettes and single slumbercoaches were single accommodations so they wouldnt have to share a berth; which is a reasonable idea. Not sharing a two berth room is a bit different.


----------



## A Voice

Green Maned Lion said:


> While I would never suggest an employee be fully deprived of a room, there is no reason (other than a somewhat over generous union contract) that in emergent circumstances, an SCA or other employee could not double bunk (they are two person rooms!) with another same gender employee.
> 
> They are people, sure, at least most of them. Some are closer to demonic than people. But they are working and getting paid, and a certain level of compromise under such an emergent circumstance as the unforseen loss of a revenue room is perfectly reasonable.


If crew persons were ever requested to "double bunk" it would ordinarily mean moving the sleeping-car attendant out of the sleeper for which they are responsible anyway, as most trains will (eventually) have either transition or baggage-dormitory cars (presumably excluding the _Star, Meteor_, and _Crescent_) where other crew will be housed. Further, all Viewliner-equipped trains have rooms turnover during the night; While no one room may be available for the entire trip, much or most of the time a room probably is temporarily vacant in one of the sleepers.

But much too big a deal is being made over the matter of one less Roomette anyway. For much of its early years, Amtrak sleepers were very far from standardized. While 10-6 sleepers (ten single-occupancy Roomettes and six double bedrooms) were common, there were also cars with sections and compartments in the fleet with varied numbers of total rooms. Coaches also variously had 44 to 62 or more seats on many long-distance routes. Amtrak, and its passengers, somehow survived.

One less Roomette (which, as Jis noted, they simply won't sell except last-minute onboard) isn't going to be nearly such a big deal.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

A Voice said:


> If crew persons were ever requested to "double bunk" it would ordinarily mean moving the sleeping-car attendant out of the sleeper for which they are responsible anyway...


In my experience the SCA isn't normally active or available during their crew rest periods so no obvious problem there. It's not like they wake up and come running just because you pressed the call button.



A Voice said:


> But much too big a deal is being made over the matter of one less Roomette anyway.


By doubling up employees in non-rev VL roomettes Amtrak could potentially free up an additional 50+ revenue rooms. If we made the similar changes to the SL fleet we could potentially double that number. I don't work for Amtrak myself but 100 extra rooms sounds like enough extra revenue to be worth consideration.


----------



## jis

One reason that staff is not doubled up is to avoid issues when there is a mix of male and female staff etc. I can almost bet that staff will never be doubled up in a room no matter how much AU people might want it.


----------



## Devil's Advocate

jis said:


> One reason that staff is not doubled up is to avoid issues when there is a mix of male and female staff etc. I can almost bet that staff will never be doubled up in a room no matter how much AU people might want it.


Airline staff rest above, below, and across from the opposite sex in half-open bunks with curtains. How do you suppose they handle all these tricky "issues" that Amtrak staff are uniquely incapable of avoiding?


----------



## Ryan

Off the top of my head, two major differences are that the crew rest area don't have the toilet exposed in the middle of them and the typical trip is somewhere around 2-3 times as long?


----------



## me_little_me

In defense of employees (but never having worked on a RR), I think giving them private roomette is appropriate. With bag dorms (and decent electronics) an SCA could even be moved to the bag dorm if necessary to free up space for a passenger since old-fashioned hard-wired buttons are obsolete and the call can go to the late-night "on duty" SCA to insure sleep time but still have responsiveness if a customer needs it. Also, I would not move SCAs out of their room to free up space unless, and only if, a room is needed because there is a problem with customer room and not to sell that additional room.

Coach attendants sharing the late night service time could use the bag dorm.

Staff using tables in the cafe cars or using more than one pair of seats should be on notice. Conductors and other staff should use diner tables in off hours in lieu of using cafe cars or a "break" area could be set up in the bag dorm if possible.


----------



## A Voice

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> One reason that staff is not doubled up is to avoid issues when there is a mix of male and female staff etc. I can almost bet that staff will never be doubled up in a room no matter how much AU people might want it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airline staff rest above, below, and across from the opposite sex in half-open bunks with curtains. How do you suppose they handle all these tricky "issues" that Amtrak staff are uniquely incapable of avoiding?
Click to expand...

Air and rail travel - Trains and planes - are not the same thing; They have differing service standards, accommodations, and passenger and crew needs and desires.

Should Amtrak also seek to emulate airline standards of coach seating (size) and quality of (coach) food service offerings, or then why is it just crew rest areas - for a journey much longer than most any flight - which should be similar?


----------



## jis

Devil's Advocate said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> One reason that staff is not doubled up is to avoid issues when there is a mix of male and female staff etc. I can almost bet that staff will never be doubled up in a room no matter how much AU people might want it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Airline staff rest above, below, and across from the opposite sex in half-open bunks with curtains. How do you suppose they handle all these tricky "issues" that Amtrak staff are uniquely incapable of avoiding?
Click to expand...

I have also never heard of an airline staff raping anyone in flight. But who knows?



I think they are very different environments, and I simply don;t see it happening no matter how many times you try to emphasize the similarities.


----------



## west point

Let us face it. 95% of all airline passengers travel 4-5 hours or less. Train passengers ? especially LD passengers ?LD


----------



## Devil's Advocate

Ryan said:


> Off the top of my head, two major differences are that the crew rest area don't have the toilet exposed in the middle of them and the typical trip is somewhere around 2-3 times as long?


So far as I am aware the ensuite toilets are scheduled to be removed. If an 18 hour flight still isn't long enough for mixed sex "issues" to develop then at what point do they become problematic? Is it 24 hours? 36 hours? 48 hours? It seems odd to measure privacy and protection as a factor of elapsed time but here we are.



A Voice said:


> Should Amtrak also seek to emulate airline standards of coach seating (size) and quality of (coach) food service offerings, or then why is it just crew rest areas - for a journey much longer than most any flight - which should be similar?


I see no problem with Amtrak emulating airline standards such as selectable seating at booking, armrest dividers, coach class call buttons, routine at-seat drink and snack service, and modern lie flat sleeping pods. Not everything about flying is antithetical to improving passenger rail.



jis said:


> I have also never heard of an airline staff raping anyone in flight. But who knows?
> 
> 
> 
> I think they are very different environments, and I simply don;t see it happening no matter how many times you try to emphasize the similarities.


According to the recent rape thread having a "private" room on Amtrak would appear to afford little in the way of dependable protection from a motivated rapist. I have no illusions that any of this may actually come to pass, but just because Amtrak and/or one of their union's is steadfastly against changing something doesn't mean it's a fundamentally irrational or logically unsound suggestion.


----------



## Ryan

By the time the ensuite toilets are gone, we’ll have bag dorms and the point will be moot.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Is any of this really an issue? Is there mass booting of passengers from sleeping cars in favor of employees? I mean other than eliminating the dorm cars and robbing revenue from sleeping cars on an everyday basis, of course?


----------



## stappend

Any chance all three of the ones skipped before will get delivered this time around; 68009 Concord, 68010 Dover, 68011 Frankfort


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakLKL said:


> Harrisburg has left the yard. First revenue trip to NYP today via the Meteor.


This has been confirmed? Which is it replacing?


----------



## StriderGDM

stappend said:


> Any chance all three of the ones skipped before will get delivered this time around; 68009 Concord, 68010 Dover, 68011 Frankfort


Is there a chance? Sure?

Does anyone have actually useful data?

Not here.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harrisburg has left the yard. First revenue trip to NYP today via the Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> This has been confirmed? Which is it replacing?
Click to expand...

What in your mind would constitute a confirmation beyond information conveyed by a guy who has access to actual consist information at Amtrak?


----------



## cpotisch

So does anyone happen to know what diner Harrisburg replaced?


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harrisburg has left the yard. First revenue trip to NYP today via the Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> This has been confirmed? Which is it replacing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What in your mind would constitute a confirmation beyond information conveyed by a guy who has access to actual consist information at Amtrak?
Click to expand...

It was less me actually doubting his info, and more of a "Wow, the diners are really being pumped out" kind of rhetorical question. It's hard to convey tone through a computer


----------



## PRR 60

Several posts that strayed way off topic have been removed.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> So does anyone happen to know what diner Harrisburg replaced?


I'm sure it's running on either the Meteor or the Crescent right now, with one VLII taking a "rest"/serving protect mode.

If I've been reading things correctly, those are the only two routes that had the Horizon diners. I seriously doubt any VLIIs will be put on the other routes until they have enough for all consists of a given route.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> So does anyone happen to know what diner Harrisburg replaced?


It swapped out with Hartford.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harrisburg has left the yard. First revenue trip to NYP today via the Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> ... "Wow, the diners are really being pumped out"
Click to expand...

Well, if you put it that way Yeah, Wow. That's good news from AmtrakLKL about the Harrisburg.

After interminable delays that drove us all plumb crazy, recently we've had a fairly steady dribble of diners out of CAF. Enuff to amount to something at long last and to do some good.

Seems we can expect that in just a few more months CAF will finish the last Viewliner diners. Then we can start to ask of the bag-dorms, "*Are we there yet?*" LOL.


----------



## Thirdrail7

WoodyinNYC said:


> Seems we can expect that in just a few more months CAF will finish the last Viewliner diners. Then we can start to ask of the bag-dorms, "*Are we there yet?*" LOL.


I wouldn't expect that at all. Even *if* they consistently kick out two a month, we're still talking about it being July 2018 until they are all delivered. I'd hardly call that a "few" months.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Yep, you youngster AUers will be Old by the time this order is completed.( I hope to see it in my Lifetime and I'm 73!!!)


----------



## A Voice

WoodyinNYC said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harrisburg has left the yard. First revenue trip to NYP today via the Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> ... "Wow, the diners are really being pumped out"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, if you put it that way Yeah, Wow. That's good news from AmtrakLKL about the Harrisburg.
> After interminable delays that drove us all plumb crazy, recently we've had a fairly steady dribble of diners out of CAF. Enuff to amount to something at long last and to do some good.
> 
> Seems we can expect that in just a few more months CAF will finish the last Viewliner diners. Then we can start to ask of the bag-dorms, "*Are we there yet?*" LOL.
Click to expand...




Thirdrail7 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems we can expect that in just a few more months CAF will finish the last Viewliner diners. Then we can start to ask of the bag-dorms, "*Are we there yet?*" LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect that at all. Even *if* they consistently kick out two a month, we're still talking about it being July 2018 until they are all delivered. I'd hardly call that a "few" months.
Click to expand...

Ultimately more important, though, is just why the diners continue to come so slowly. The entire contract is already behind schedule, but there are now a number of completely serviceable cars delivered. CAF has demonstrated ability to deliver complete cars so, again, what _exactly_ remains the hang up and - critically - just who or what is at fault? Is the problem one of lack of skilled workers or production facilities at CAF (certainly, they've had time to expand both, but such would cost money for a contract of finite size), or slow delivery of components by a subcontractor? Or is Amtrak at fault, unwilling to bear higher costs in return for faster completion?


----------



## west point

Could it be lack of passenger car trucks ? Every picture we have seen of cars at CAF have the cars on shop trucks. It would help if someone could give us a new picture(s). Maybe why returned cars to CAF have not been released if their trucks were cannibalized ? 3rd rail ? ? ?


----------



## Thirdrail7

The IG report mentioned one of CAFs key suppliers had major difficulties, which caused delays. Perhaps this is still the case. Additionally, focusing on a few cars and doing them correctly trumps working on multiple cars. The less defects they have when the emerge, the better.


----------



## cpotisch

A Voice said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harrisburg has left the yard. First revenue trip to NYP today via the Meteor.
> 
> 
> 
> ... "Wow, the diners are really being pumped out"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, if you put it that way Yeah, Wow. That's good news from AmtrakLKL about the Harrisburg.
> After interminable delays that drove us all plumb crazy, recently we've had a fairly steady dribble of diners out of CAF. Enuff to amount to something at long last and to do some good.
> 
> Seems we can expect that in just a few more months CAF will finish the last Viewliner diners. Then we can start to ask of the bag-dorms, "*Are we there yet?*" LOL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems we can expect that in just a few more months CAF will finish the last Viewliner diners. Then we can start to ask of the bag-dorms, "*Are we there yet?*" LOL.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wouldn't expect that at all. Even *if* they consistently kick out two a month, we're still talking about it being July 2018 until they are all delivered. I'd hardly call that a "few" months.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ultimately more important, though, is just why the diners continue to come so slowly. The entire contract is already behind schedule, but there are now a number of completely serviceable cars delivered. CAF has demonstrated ability to deliver complete cars so, again, what _exactly_ remains the hang up and - critically - just who or what is at fault? Is the problem one of lack of skilled workers or production facilities at CAF (certainly, they've had time to expand both, but such would cost money for a contract of finite size), or slow delivery of components by a subcontractor? Or is Amtrak at fault, unwilling to bear higher costs in return for faster completion?
Click to expand...

I am of the opinion that the current rate of production is pretty decent. Sure we're 2-3 years late, but I think that the 2 cars per month maintained for the past 3 months is pretty good. That said, I know close to nothing about normal train car production rates.


----------



## west point

""IF"" a major supplier is slow then maybe many cars are almost finished ? If so if the supplier can get its act togegher then sometime we might see a flood of cars being delivred ?


----------



## cpotisch

Is Charleston currently acting as a protect? Haven't seen it anywhere.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Is Charleston currently acting as a protect? Haven't seen it anywhere.


No it is not acting as a protect. Where are you looking? Realistically, there are 8 dining cars operating on a calendar. Are you in the position to see them all simultaneously? You'd have to spend quite a bit of time between ALX and NYP to do so.


----------



## cpotisch

I spent a few days railfanning in NJ. Didn’t see it at all.


----------



## CCC1007

cpotisch said:


> I spent a few days railfanning in NJ. Didn’t see it at all.


Did you see every meteor and crescent run for three days passing there?


----------



## cpotisch

CCC1007 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I spent a few days railfanning in NJ. Didn’t see it at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you see every meteor and crescent run for three days passing there?
Click to expand...

I think I saw 7 diners, with a bunch of which I saw twice. Since I hadn't heard about, seen, or found any vids of Charleston, I was just wondering if it was a protect.


----------



## Thirdrail7




----------



## RPC

Hmm, two capitals on that left-hand sign - are we getting both? (Please?)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I'm guessing Dover is being held because it's a little shaky.


----------



## StriderGDM

I've got to say, Thirdrail7 does a good job finding the right road signs!

But 2 more, any 2, I'll take!


----------



## GBNorman

A Voice said:


> Is the problem one of lack of skilled workers or production facilities at CAF?


Mr.Voice raises an interesting point. When this "political" contract was awarded to an Upstate NY builder, it was "all about jobs".

Well volks, the Recession is over, and the pool of workers with an ability to learn and are not strung out on Vicodin, is becoming sparse. I'm willing to bet that CAF does not have a pool of trainable workers banging at their door begging for work. That may have been the case when the contract was awaeded, but "it ain't so nowadays".


----------



## Green Maned Lion

CPotisch, you need to be something more than a fan to be willing to spend time in New Jersey.

Norman, with your attitude an exemplified of the American attitude to blue collar workers, is it any wonder they are strung out on drugs?


----------



## keelhauled

In any event Amtrak has funded at least the beginning of the program via internal revenue. I don't know if they have made public where the remainder came from--if I had to guess probably RRIF loans--but anyhow the Viewliners were not part of any government jobs program. In fact there were only two bidders, CAF and Alstom, so it would have been a real trick to to make it political when both factories are almost next door.


----------



## neroden

Amtrak funded the entire Viewliner program from internal excess of revenue over operating costs, and so far it's been so heavily delayed that they haven't even made all the payments yet.

That said, it proved hard to convince skilled workers to move to Elmira, and I'm not surprised. Maybe a commuter bus to Ithaca would have helped.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


>


Hmm, should I take route "12 7" as having significance?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

neroden said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, should I take route "12 7" as having significance?
Click to expand...

Moves usually happen on Monday’s and he already gave a hint for the date of the move.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Palmetto

RPC said:


> Hmm, two capitals on that left-hand sign - are we getting both? (Please?)


Jackson is, in fact, the capital of MS, but it's also a city in MI. So it might be only one new car. Time will tell!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Palmetto said:


> RPC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, two capitals on that left-hand sign - are we getting both? (Please?)
> 
> 
> 
> Jackson is, in fact, the capital of MS, but it's also a city in MI. So it might be only one new car. Time will tell!
Click to expand...

I'm sure he could have found a sign that did not include Jackson if that was the case.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


>


Did you (Thirdrail7) get info saying Lansing and Jackson are next, or is that just generally expected?


----------



## Ryan

You haven’t figured this game out yet?

When he posts stuff like this, he’s sharing new info.

You’re not going to get something like “Hi, my name is Trainy McTrainface, I work for Amtrak and would like to formally announce that the next two Diners ready to be released will be the Fort Wayne and Flint, they will be led away from the factory by Amtrak locomotive number 352 at precisely 10:17 am on Friday 15 December”. Learn to evaluate sources and where you can pick up reliable information, rather than wander around like a child that wanders into the middle of a movie and asks who all these people are and what’s going on.


----------



## Ziv

Classic reference, Ryan! I just wish that there was a Royal Research Ship Boaty McBoatface set to sail the Great South Sea in a year or two. The will of the people and all that. Sydney Ferries did name one of their ships Ferry McFerryface, but it lacks the "gravitas" of the original.

And back to the subject at hand, I am really impressed that ThirdRail found a photo with both names in it. It is amazing that getting 2 train cars a month is good news, but considering the double level train car fiasco, anything positive is worth celebrating.



Ryan said:


> You’re not going to get something like “Hi, my name is Trainy McTrainface, I work for Amtrak...


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> You haven’t figured this game out yet?
> 
> When he posts stuff like this, he’s sharing new info.
> 
> You’re not going to get something like “Hi, my name is Trainy McTrainface, I work for Amtrak and would like to formally announce that the next two Diners ready to be released will be the Fort Wayne and Flint, they will be led away from the factory by Amtrak locomotive number 352 at precisely 10:17 am on Friday 15 December”. Learn to evaluate sources and where you can pick up reliable information, rather than wander around like a child that wanders into the middle of a movie and asks who all these people are and what’s going on.


I am sorry I am naïve or have trouble understanding tone or context through a computer. I'm posting in good faith, and it was just a question.


----------



## Ryan

No need to apologize at all, we were all new once.

As one that has been there before, I can only suggest that you lay back a little bit, see the claims that people make and then see what actually happens. You should quickly learn who posts “the good stuff”.


----------



## Palmetto

AmtrakBlue said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RPC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, two capitals on that left-hand sign - are we getting both? (Please?)
> 
> 
> 
> Jackson is, in fact, the capital of MS, but it's also a city in MI. So it might be only one new car. Time will tell!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure he could have found a sign that did not include Jackson if that was the case.
Click to expand...

Given his ingenuity, I think you're right!


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> No need to apologize at all, we were all new once.
> 
> As one that has been there before, I can only suggest that you lay back a little bit, see the claims that people make and then see what actually happens. You should quickly learn who posts “the good stuff”.


Got it. Thank you.


----------



## cpotisch

Does it seem like all 10 V-IIs as well as 8400 are currently in working order?


----------



## stappend

This thread has the current known status.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/71690-viewliner-diner-delivery-just-the-facts/


----------



## neroden

Apparently Amtrak currently considers parking dining cars as protect cars more important than providing dining car service on the LSL, the train where the dining car actually made the most money from paying coach passengers. OK, maybe they have a point, due to the value of consistently having dining cars on the trains which have them and the value of getting rid of the Heritage diners, but still, it's a little ridiculous. Here's hoping the next deliveries are put into service promptly rather than with Amtrak's typical lackadaisicalness, and that the LSL gets its cash generator back.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Apparently Amtrak currently considers parking dining cars as protect cars more important than providing dining car service on the LSL, the train where the dining car actually made the most money from paying coach passengers. OK, maybe they have a point, due to the value of consistently having dining cars on the trains which have them and the value of getting rid of the Heritage diners, but still, it's a little ridiculous. Here's hoping the next deliveries are put into service promptly rather than with Amtrak's typical lackadaisicalness, and that the LSL gets its cash generator back.


Right now, they technically could give it back to the LSL, but the SM and Crescent serve 3-4 meal, so I guess they just dont want to run even the slightest risk for those trains by keeping Heritages as protects.
Would Amtrak need to train some of the LSL crew for the diner? Or maybe need to hire more people in order to run the diner?


----------



## PVD

Crews will need to be trained on new equipment regardless. I am not sure of the exact process, but it would be safe to assume that there is a "bid process" of some type where the jobs are posted and eligible staff bids for the job openings (if any). Depending on retirements or other departures, a crew base may need to hire for open positions, but that is for the position, not the assignment which would be subject to a bid process. That is an outline based on typical job filling in that environment, someone with Amtrak specific HR/CBA knowledge may be able to be more specific.


----------



## cpotisch

In get the sense that Amtrak will only start the process of acquiring and training the crew once they already have enough equipment for the LSL, I think the realistic scenario would be this:

Lansing and Jackson leave CAF - mid December

Lansing and Jackson ready for service, totaling 13 diners (Amtrak begins acquiring/training diner crew) - early January

Crew is ready - early February

LSL with a diner - early February

That is my incredibly rough and speculative timeline.


----------



## Ryan

What makes you people think that Amtrak needs to hire and train people?


----------



## TiBike

"Acquire" doesn't necessarily mean "hire". People will have to be trained on the new equipment. That seems to be standard. Go back and read some of the threads about bike racks in the baggage cars -- there seemed to be great concern about Amtrak employees being properly trained to use them. Despite the fact that passengers, down to kids, use them every day with no training at all.


----------



## stappend

There is no guarantee that the LSL is going to be next. Any number of things could happen, Star, Cardinal, nothing, Amtrak opens a Railroad diner someplace.




Though if they used 8400 in the mix they theoretically have enough diners to equip the 3 sets of LSL after receipt of the next bunch next week.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> What makes you people think that Amtrak needs to hire and train people?


To go from the diner-lite to a full service diner, wouldn't they need more staff to run the diner? The Diner-lite uses one 'cook' (who just pre-packaged meals) stuff in microwaves, and frequently will only have one waiter. If that's not the case, could someone explain? Do they have a surplus of diner staff on hand that could be assigned to the LSL?


----------



## PVD

The staff for the LSL already existed....


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> The staff for the LSL already existed....


But is there currently staff available to run the LSL's diner. All I'm saying is that if Amtrak currently doesn't have staff to run a full service dining car on the LSL, then they would need to find some.


----------



## west point

Amtrak needs to hire ? You bet

His thinking is correct just check Amtrak home page ; careers ' Type in food service specialist ; or OBS, or all.

Number of positions available to be hired may be more than one per listing. Lets see 2-1/2 to 3 months to qualify gets close to the ides of March ?


----------



## Ryan

TiBike said:


> "Acquire" doesn't necessarily mean "hire".


 I know. He mentioned hiring. Let's review.



cpotisch said:


> Or maybe need to *hire* more people in order to run the diner?





PVD said:


> The staff for the LSL already existed....


Correct, and they weren't fired when the LSL lost it's diner. The training also isn't exotic - they're already running the diners on other routes.



cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The staff for the LSL already existed....
> 
> 
> 
> But is there currently staff available to run the LSL's diner. All I'm saying is that if Amtrak currently doesn't have staff to run a full service dining car on the LSL, then they would need to find some.
Click to expand...

The people are there, OBS people aren't hired and captive to a particular route. When the cars are ready and Amtrak wants to use them, they'll open the jobs up for bid and people will fill them. Not rocket surgery.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> TiBike said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Acquire" doesn't necessarily mean "hire".
> 
> 
> 
> I know. He mentioned hiring. Let's review.
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Or maybe need to *hire* more people in order to run the diner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The staff for the LSL already existed....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct, and they weren't fired when the LSL lost it's diner. The training also isn't exotic - they're already running the diners on other routes.
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> The staff for the LSL already existed....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But is there currently staff available to run the LSL's diner. All I'm saying is that if Amtrak currently doesn't have staff to run a full service dining car on the LSL, then they would need to find some.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The people are there, OBS people aren't hired and captive to a particular route. When the cars are ready and Amtrak wants to use them, they'll open the jobs up for bid and people will fill them. Not rocket surgery.
Click to expand...

OK. Thank you.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Sir, we have endeavored to explain, but we are not going to endeavor to bring you an understanding.


----------



## dlagrua

I just read an article in Trains magazine today that claimed that CAF will not be shipping the Viewliner II sleepers and baggage dorms until at least 2019. If true, this is not good news. I believe that with the continued delays we may never see these cars shipped. We must now wait until 2019 for the next delay and to see if my thoughts are correct.


----------



## CCC1007

dlagrua said:


> I just read an article in Trains magazine today that claimed that CAF will not be shipping the Viewliner II sleepers and baggage dorms until at least 2019. If true, this is not good news. I believe that with the continued delays we may never see these cars shipped. We must now wait until 2019 for the next delay and to see if my thoughts are correct.


I won’t believe that until it is independently confirmed.


----------



## DSS&A

Baggage car 61046 is currently assigned to the Amtrak Polar Express train at Chicago Union Station. It is coupled in the middle of the seven car train with six Horizon coaches that have their interiors decorated for the holiday train. The baggage car is functioning as the employee staging car for the Polar Express production. The six decorated Horizon coaches are 54512, 54514, 54554, 54505, 54578 and 54531. GE No. 33 was the assigned locomotive today.

https://s17.postimg.org/3t9vkvt8f/20171206_125249.jpg

https://s17.postimg.org/dqkwdzb4v/20171206_125429.jpg

Union Station is decorated for the holidays. The large tree is reflected on the polished marble floor!

https://s17.postimg.org/7pn7gzojj/20171205_120949.jpg


----------



## Ryan

Putting IMG tags on those makes them visible...



DSS&A said:


> Baggage car 61046 is currently assigned to the Amtrak Polar Express train at Chicago Union Station. It is coupled in the middle of the seven car train with six Horizon coaches that have their interiors decorated for the holiday train. The baggage car is functioning as the employee staging car for the Polar Express production. The six decorated Horizon coaches are 54512, 54514, 54554, 54505, 54578 and 54531. GE No. 33 was the assigned locomotive today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Union Station is decorated for the holidays. The large tree is reflected on the polished marble floor!


----------



## AmtrakLKL

CCC1007 said:


> dlagrua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just read an article in Trains magazine today that claimed that CAF will not be shipping the Viewliner II sleepers and baggage dorms until at least 2019. If true, this is not good news. I believe that with the continued delays we may never see these cars shipped. We must now wait until 2019 for the next delay and to see if my thoughts are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> I won’t believe that until it is independently confirmed.
Click to expand...

I'd believe it. If the last of the sleepers are completed and delivered by December 2020 it will be a miracle. Someone set a reminder for three years from today to revisit this post.


----------



## Acela150

dlagrua said:


> I just read an article in Trains magazine today that claimed that CAF will not be shipping the Viewliner II sleepers and baggage dorms until at least 2019. If true, this is not good news. I believe that with the continued delays we may never see these cars shipped. We must now wait until 2019 for the next delay and to see if my thoughts are correct.


Dennis, it means they will be delivered by the end of 2019. I can't see Amtrak going about a year without seeing anything out of CAF.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Well, Thirdrail already indicated 2019 for bag dorms and later for the sleepers.



Thirdrail7 said:


> WoodyinNYC said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... CAF will finish the last Viewliner diners. Then we can start to ask of the bag-dorms, "*Are we there yet?*" LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> Even *if* CAF consistently kick out two a month, we're still talking about it being July 2018 until the diners are all delivered.
Click to expand...

Taking Thirdrail's July 2018 (at least) delivery for the last diners, I'd look for a pause before the bag-dorms start coming out the door. Maybe three months for the 'pause'? (Pure speculation.) That gets us to about this time next year, 2018, before we start to see any bag-dorms. Will they roll out two-a-month, like the diners now? With 10 bag dorms, that could mean another five months, until about May 2019. Will there be another 'pause' before the full sleepers leave Elmira? Then 25 sleepers, at a two-a-month rate, even if there's no pause that puts deliveries into mid-2020.

That delay might give an opportunity down the road for Amtrak execs to revisit their counts and possibly order more Viewliners while the production line is open. That would be if Amtrak is still open more or less, which Green Maned Line reminds us is a risk with the Trillion dollar tax giveaway now in Congress.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

> That delay might give an opportunity down the road for Amtrak execs to revisit their counts and possibly order more Viewliners while the production line is open.


The production line is not quite open. The car bodies have all been built. Ever single one is done. Only the interior and mechanical systems are been worked on. Which is a big part of the equipment, but the container is also a big part of the process. The car bodies were a major source of delay due to lack of qualified welders.

So can CAF build more? Sure but its not going to be easy.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I suspect that if Amtrak tried to excersize those options, CAF would fight them tooth and nail, and possible declare bankruptcy of its American arm.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> The production line is not quite open. The car bodies have all been built. Ever single one is done. Only the interior and mechanical systems are being worked on. Which is a big part of the equipment, but the container is also a big part of the process. The car bodies were a major source of delay due to lack of qualified welders.
> So can CAF build more? Sure but its not going to be easy.


You're right, of course. The entire supplier network could need refreshing.

I was thinking about the human part of the production. We don't officially know what were the problems, but the informed speculation centers on a workforce that had to be taught the basic skills to do the job. God forbid to let the workforce dissipate if there's any real possibility of building more new Viewliners.

And maybe Amtrak doesn't need and couldn't use any more V-2s of whatever type. If there are no restored trains, no more frequencies on existing routes, no growth at all in Long Distance, then not to bother.

What is the expectation on utilization of the V-2 sleepers? One more sleeper on every Eastern single-level train -- Meteor, Star, Crescent, Cardinal, and Lake Shore. Maybe one or two on the night train BOS-Newport News? A couple more if the Crescent splits to Dallas? Any chance of adding still another sleeper to any of the trains getting one more under the plan? I think it's said the Lake Shore is already long and couldn't easily fit another sleeper. But could the others grow?

Meanwhile I'm still thinking that Amtrak may come up short of funds for fleet replacement. Congress could say, "Bi-level or single-level, pick one, and we'll get around to the other one in the sweet bye-and-bye." In that case, Amtrak could try to switch the Capitol Ltd and maybe the City of New Orleans to single-level equipment, and rotate their Superliners out West. Wouldn't they require another 25 or so V-2 sleepers?

And that's not counting any serious expansion, like Philly Fan's "Broadway Ltd" NYC-Philly-PGH-CLE (daylight)-CHI. Right now, no expansion would get by the haters in Congress. But the current political line-up seems increasingly volatile. One can imagine an electoral explosion that could change the majorities on every issue in D.C., including growing or shrinking Amtrak. In the aftermath of such an explosion, routes like a "Broadway Ltd" could find new champions in Congress the way Sen Byrd protected the Cardinal back in the day.


----------



## stappend

I miss the Night Owl. We used to take it from Boston to D.C. spend the day and go back that night. Roomette was cheaper than a hotel stay.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Green Maned Lion said:


> I suspect that if Amtrak tried to exercise those options, CAF would fight them tooth and nail, and possible declare bankruptcy of its American arm.


Yeah, the options would not work. But if Amtrak and CAF aren't hating each other, start anew with a separate order with new prices for the extra cars. A deal could be a face-saver for CAF, so long as their losses did not continue.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Personally, Im not sure why we want more VLs. A Viaggio Comfort based LD spec is a better bet.


----------



## DCAKen

Way back at post 17 of this thread, I posted a quote from Amtrak Ink by Wick Moorman



> _Do you know when the new single level long-distance cars
> will be entered into service?_
> 
> This obviously has been a real problem for us in that the cars we
> ordered from CAF have been late in delivery and are getting later. We
> do have all of the new baggage cars on line now and we’re waiting for
> the new diners, the first of which is due out later this year. [NOTE:
> Amtrak conditionally accepted CAF’s first delivered car on Nov. 7.
> The remaining cars are scheduled to be delivered between August
> 2017 and September 2018.]


There was some discussion on how this must mean all the remaining cars. We were so optimistic back then...


----------



## jis

AU in general is known for its unbridled optimism on matters Amtrak.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Unbridled optimism is unmitigated irrationality.


----------



## west point

What exactly is the model of trucks on the V-2s ? Is it the same as V-1s ?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Kenworth W900Ls.


----------



## cpotisch

Green Maned Lion said:


> Kenworth W900Ls.


LOL


west point said:


> What exactly is the model of trucks on the V-2s ? Is it the same as V-1s ?


I forget the model, but I believe they are slightly different than the V-Is, with less rolling resistance at high speeds (125 mph), and better brakes. I dont know beyond that.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> What exactly is the model of trucks on the V-2s ? Is it the same as V-1s ?


GSI Horizon trucks, VL IIs have the same trucks as VL Is, except for heftier springs on the trucks under the Baggage cars.
The speed difference has mostly to do with wheel profile and brake setup. And the Baggage Cars have heftier springs that are colored Red.

And of course there is a big C stamped on the truck components for "Columbus", instead of the traditional B for "Buckeye". I don't know what is stamped on the post-Columbus parts. Or whether any such are used in any of the VL IIs. My understanding is that all the castings for the trucks for the VL II order were delivered before Columbus went under. Post Columbus castings for the same GSI trucks came out as a fix for problems they had in the Silverliner V order AFAIR. I don't know if any of those castings were ever used in any VL II GSI trucks.


----------



## Ryan

Delivered_Diners=Delivered_Diners+2


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Delivered_Diners!=interesting


----------



## tommylicious

there is photo on another Amtrak group of 2 new diners leaving Elmira this AM. which line is getting them?


----------



## twropr

Today (Dec 12) 68014 (Jackson) and 68015 (Lansing) were picked up by NS Special train #975 at Elmira Heights, NY. They are scheduled to move on SILVER METEOR #97 to Miami for prepping, probably leaving NY on the 13th.

Andy


----------



## jis

Heritage 8505 was on 20(8) which I saw arrive into Washington Union Station on the 9th. So we are still not at all VL II + 8400 always state.

97(9) had 8400 BTW. I was on that train.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

twropr 
Train Attendant


Training






17 posts

Posted Today, 11:35 AM


Today (Dec 12) 68014 (Jackson) and 68015 (Lansing) were picked up by NS Special train #975 at Elmira Heights, NY. They are scheduled to move on SILVER METEOR #97 to Miami for prepping, probably leaving NY on the 13th.

Andy

-----------------------------------------------

Andy, I have reposted your good news to this thread. The other thread is supposed to be a running total, not the spot for news flashes. LOL. But this is such good news it doesn't hurt to post it twice! Thanks for the details.

------------------------------------------------

Is it just me, or does CAF seem to be getting a little speed up, with shorter intervals between deliveries? Nah, that would be too good to be true.


----------



## Ryan

Diners aren’t assigned to a specific line. Like every other diner it’ll probably start on 97/98 so that it can get back to FL if needed, then enter the general rotation.


----------



## jis

The plan was to get to two per month. They seem to have finally achieved that. So it will hopefully be two per month regularly now. That still takes us almost past mid year before all the Diners are delivered.


----------



## neroden

There will probably be a break between that and the ten bag-dorms... which is going to take us into 2019 before we see the sleepers...

Income lost due to CAF's screwups because Viewliners are profitable...


----------



## west point

My math has the 2 on October 31 and 2 on the 12th = 6 weeks. still not fast enough.


----------



## twropr

On Tues. Dec. 12 Jackson 68014 and Lansing 68015 were picked up at Elmira Heights, NY by an Amtrak crew

Andy


----------



## jis

So, if this cadence continues, it will be well into third or fourth quarter of '18 before all the Diners are in.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Not only that, but if my aunt had wheels, shed be a tea cart. Actually, DPA likes to say a bus, but I think that comes from the fact that a bus is semi-synonymous with tea cart, hence bussing tables and busboys.


----------



## Thirdrail7

twropr said:


> They are scheduled to move on SILVER METEOR #97 to Miami for prepping, probably leaving NY on the 13th.
> 
> Andy



Ummm...probably not since 97(13) was scheduled to operate with 5 private cars. I hope no one was not out there looking for them since they were "probably" scheduled to hold a day and leave on the 14th.


----------



## neroden

Oh, come on, the Silver Meteor can handle its 10 usual cars, 1 seasonal car, 5 private cars and two deadheading cars.  Nice flat route, really long platforms, what's the problem? We need more 18-car trains running.


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> twropr said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are scheduled to move on SILVER METEOR #97 to Miami for prepping, probably leaving NY on the 13th.
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm...probably not since 97(13) was scheduled to operate with 5 private cars. I hope no one was not out there looking for them since they were "probably" scheduled to hold a day and leave on the 14th.
Click to expand...

Even if I was I’d gladly take 5 PV’s over crappy diners.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## OBS

jis said:


> Heritage 8505 was on 20(8) which I saw arrive into Washington Union Station on the 9th. So we are still not at all VL II + 8400 always state.
> 
> 97(9) had 8400 BTW. I was on that train.


8505 still on 20 arriving NYP yesterday...


----------



## daybeers

I am on NER #176 right now, and leaving WAS I saw Baton Rouge waiting to depart on the Crescent 20(13) on track 25, right next to ours. It was 1' 43" down leaving WAS. I got *some* video, but it's probably not all that good, as it wasn't on the same platform. The inside looked nice from what I could see trying to shoot from a grimy Amfleet I coach window!


----------



## stappend

OBS said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heritage 8505 was on 20(8) which I saw arrive into Washington Union Station on the 9th. So we are still not at all VL II + 8400 always state.
> 
> 97(9) had 8400 BTW. I was on that train.
> 
> 
> 
> 8505 still on 20 arriving NYP yesterday...
Click to expand...

I'm sure it makes sense, if we knew the logic, but it seems odd to use a Heritage in revenue service and have 2 VL2's in protect status.


----------



## PVD

If the Heritage was a protect car, and was swapped for a VL, it would be in revenue service. Depending on the reason why the VL was swapped out, and where service is performed, it might be the protect car for a while.


----------



## jis

The logic I am sure is pretty straightforward - make sure that there is a serviceable Diner on each train that is supposed to have a Diner. If all that is available is a Heritage one that is serviceable, so be it. No pint in gratuitously swapping out a serviceable Diner once it is in circulation in a consist.


----------



## Anderson

So, we're soon (e.g. in a month or two) going to have enough V2s to reinstate a diner on the LSL. Once that happens, what is the plan for the remaining diners? Amtrak is taking delivery of 25 diners, but as of right now only 11 plus protect/shop covers are needed, giving probably 8-11 (if we include 8400) "spares".


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Anderson said:


> So, we're soon (e.g. in a month or two) going to have enough V2s to reinstate a diner on the LSL. Once that happens, what is the plan for the remaining diners? Amtrak is taking delivery of 25 diners, but as of right now only 11 plus protect/shop covers are needed, giving probably 8-11 (if we include 8400) "spares".


Remember near the dawn of time when the announced plan was for CAF to build baggage cars on one production line and on the other one to assemble the diners, the bag/dorms, and then sleepers? The plan changed to first build all the baggage cars a.s.a.p. using both lines.

Now we all probably assume CAF and Amtrak will continue producing two cars a month using both lines even as production shifts to bag/dorms and then sleepers.

So in about 2 or 3 months, Amtrak may have about enuff diners for today's demand. I'd cut back on diners to produce one a month, on one line. And on the other line start up bag/dorms. In other words, bring forward half a dozen bag/dorms that will immediately produce revenue, while postponing an equal number of what may be surplus and excess diners.

This move would to some extent postpone the decisions on what to do with a handful of surplus and excess diners. It allows other ideas to percolate while the facts on the ground may shift, for better or worse. For example, one political possibility is that if the Trillion dollar tax gut bill passes, it will be followed by massive spending cuts, including a deadly whack at Amtrak. On the other hand, after the Congressional election in November 2018, appropriations could increase substantially.

On another front, currently, and next year and the next, Amtrak has no spare single-level coaches to use for anything new or different. But when the [Nippon Sharyo] Siemens order starts to deliver 137 new cars, mostly to the Midwest, some 70 - 90 Horizon cars could cascade to other routes.

Again, depending on the election returns next year, a massive order could be placed to replace , and possibly to expand, the current flee of Eastern trains. So at some point it could be possible to add a revived "Broadway Ltd", to extend a branch off the Crescent to Dallas, and so forth.

If replacing the fleet is only possible in a half-funded, half-assed way, which we might expect of Congress, so that only added single-level cars are available soonish, but no new bi-levels, then switching the Capitol Ltd. to single-level equipment would free up Superliners to augment the Western fleet; likewise with the City of New Orleans. But to make such equipment changes, Amtrak would need more Viewliner diners. In that case, once enuff coaches are available, the surplus and excess of diners we fear now would be put to good use.

O.K. Enuff thinking big picture.

With a potential surplus of diners, could they be added to existing day trains? Without sleeping car revenues to offset the diner losses, it could reveal awkward numbers, or not. But are we sure there would be losses if the Palmetto or Carolinian, or the Pennsylvanian, or the Maple Leaf or Adirondack offered sit-down, table dining? Yeah, I know, you can grab a breakfast in Penn Station, but I'd gladly pay another $10 or maybe $20 to sleep 20 minutes later and eat breakfast at leisure onboard. Or maybe any dining car losses could be hidden by including meals in a business class fare.

Or try two diners on the Meteor, maybe one full kitchen and one and a half cars of tables, with the other kitchen operating diner lite or as a lounge, with mostly snacks and sandwiches to take back to your seat. (Eliminating only one chef's position saves over $600,000 a year on the City of New Orleans.)

Last but not least, if it becomes clear that five or six diners really are surplus and excess, well, the Viewliners are supposed to be modular. So write them off as a loss -- folded in with the larger CAF loss who will know or care? -- and blame it all on Boardman. LOL. Then rip out the kitchen and table modules, and insert roomette modules to make new sleepers at a bargain price. I'm sure Amtrak can find a way to add another sleeper to one of the Eastern trains.


----------



## A Voice

Anderson said:


> So, we're soon (e.g. in a month or two) going to have enough V2s to reinstate a diner on the LSL. Once that happens, what is the plan for the remaining diners? Amtrak is taking delivery of 25 diners, but as of right now only 11 plus protect/shop covers are needed, giving probably 8-11 (if we include 8400) "spares".


There really aren't any surplus dining cars. The _Silver Star_ and a daily _Cardinal_, plus the necessary spares, basically account for the remainder. No, there is no actual confirmation that diners will return to those trains. But while the service model might well differ from a traditional dining car experience (not necessarily always a bad thing), it is a bit hard to envision Amtrak opting to retain high mileage, thirty-five year old Amfleet II lounge cars while brand-new Viewliner diners sit unneeded.


----------



## Anderson

A Voice said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, we're soon (e.g. in a month or two) going to have enough V2s to reinstate a diner on the LSL. Once that happens, what is the plan for the remaining diners? Amtrak is taking delivery of 25 diners, but as of right now only 11 plus protect/shop covers are needed, giving probably 8-11 (if we include 8400) "spares".
> 
> 
> 
> There really aren't any surplus dining cars. The _Silver Star_ and a daily _Cardinal_, plus the necessary spares, basically account for the remainder. No, there is no actual confirmation that diners will return to those trains. But while the service model might well differ from a traditional dining car experience (not necessarily always a bad thing), it is a bit hard to envision Amtrak opting to retain high mileage, thirty-five year old Amfleet II lounge cars while brand-new Viewliner diners sit unneeded.
Click to expand...

Though I don't really agree with the decision, I think the Cardinal will get a diner(-ish) before the Star does. I actually think you might be more likely to see something like the Pennsylvanian and Palmetto getting the diners (albeit with a somewhat modified passenger experience) first, since the Palmetto is an Amtrak train while the Pennsylvanian occupies a sort of hybrid space (it is nominally a state-supported train but Amtrak has conceded that it produces enough feeder traffic to the Cap that they'd have a real problem dumping it).

Personally, I'd actually like to see Amtrak seriously consider some sort of swap, adding a batch of diners that would operate more or less as cafes and then converting a bunch of Amcafes back to coaches. I'm not sure how much those conversions would cost, but adding an extra set or two worth of coaches would likely help Amtrak's bottom line...and of course, now I'm trying to figure out how much that would be worth as "surge capacity"


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Last Diner named after Vermont capital has nameplate mis-spelled , ohh boy


----------



## A Voice

Dutchrailnut said:


> Last Diner named after Vermont capital has nameplate mis-spelled , ohh boy


Huh? _Montpelier_ has yet to be delivered.


----------



## keelhauled

A Voice said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> Last Diner named after Vermont capital has nameplate mis-spelled , ohh boy
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? _Montpelier_ has yet to be delivered.
Click to expand...

Nameplate has probably been made though.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Amtrak reportedly picked up two cars on Dec 11/12 and a picture of name plate is floating around (with two LL's )

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/640996/#remarks


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Dutchrailnut said:


> Amtrak reportedly picked up two cars on Dec 11/12 and a picture of name plate is floating around (with two LL's )
> 
> http://www.railpictures.net/photo/640996/#remarks


What do those have to do with Vermont? Lansing (MI) and Jackson (MS) were delivered.


----------



## jis

Frankly, a misspelled nameplate is the least of the problems in the broader scheme of things. it should take a day or two to make another nameplate or two with the right spelling. Heck even Hialeah could pull that off I am sure.

talk about focusing on the less important while Rome burns.






Then again A. Philip Randolph had been running around with a misspelled name for many many years too


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Frankly, a misspelled nameplate is the least of the problems in the broader scheme of things. it should take a day or two to make another nameplate or two with the right spelling. Heck even Hialeah could pull that off I am sure.
> 
> talk about focusing on the less important while Rome burns.


Agreed. More importantly, it is likely to never see the home state and the rest of the country probably can't spell _Montpelier_ anyway.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Forget about the spelling, how many people in this country know the capital cities of any state but their own?


----------



## Lonestar648

How many people even know have the states in this country?


----------



## Ryan

Lonestar648 said:


> How many people even know have the states in this country?


Huh?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ryan said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many people even know have the states in this country?
> 
> 
> 
> Huh?
Click to expand...

Half the states


----------



## Palmetto

Green Maned Lion said:


> Forget about the spelling, how many people in this country know the capital cities of any state but their own?


Fifth grade geography, back in the day. I'm up for a test.


----------



## Acela150

I think I was in 3rd grade when we had to memorize each and every state capital city. Which was one of the coolest things I did at that age.


----------



## Steve4031

I could get 45-50 if not 50 out of 50. By the fifth grade my train riding and constant studying of Amtrak's time table and map had taught me the geography of the USA.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ditto on the Elementary Geography!

Don't think it's a requirement anymore in most schools!!???


----------



## Palmetto

Bob Dylan said:


> Ditto on the Elementary Geography!
> 
> Don't think it's a requirement anymore in most schools!!???


MEMORIZATION is not a requirement anymore in most schools. Too boring, you know?


----------



## jis

Acela150 said:


> I think I was in 3rd grade when we had to memorize each and every state capital city. Which was one of the coolest things I did at that age.


While the US states and their capitals was not part of the curriculum in the elementary school in India, by third grade we were quite into the major countries of the world, their capitals and their flags. We were also upto speed on the states of India and their capitals. That was an interesting exercise since the states in India were being reorganized a bit even then as part of the rationalization from the princely fiefdoms of the indirectly under British rule parts of India, into post-independence states.

All that we learned about the US was that the kids wore clothing with big numbers on the back and strange names of people on them, and that they loved their flag, and hated the Russians.


----------



## Ziv

When I was in Nepal, every other kid would be pestering you for pens and/or asking what country and state or province you were from. As soon as you told them your home state or province, they would immediately, correctly, name the capital. Since they didn't have a lot of materials, their teachers emphasized memorizing geographical features and capitals.


----------



## neroden

Most people in the US don't even learn what countries there are in the world, let alone subnational units of other countries. In 1992 I was the only person in my school (including the teachers) who knew anything about Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Tajikistan.

I had to get out a globe and point to the countries on it. For my *history teachers*. (Central Asia actually plays a crucial role in all of European and Asian history, so I found this exceptionally pathetic.) Then I had to give them the ten-minute spiel about the steppe and oasis cultures. :sigh:

(Ever wondered why I have a healthy disrespect for credentials?)


----------



## railiner

Knowing state capitols has come in handy for me....like in playing team trivia on cruises....



.

I was addicted to map-reading at a young age...at one point, if you told me two Interstate or Federal highway numbers that intersected, I could tell you the city they did it in or near...(not any more)...


----------



## StriderGDM

Can someone please point me to a forum on railroading? I seem to have stumbled on a geography forum....


----------



## WoodyinNYC

neroden said:


> Most people in the US don't even learn what countries there are in the world, let alone subnational units of other countries. In 1992 I was the only person in my school (including the teachers) who knew anything about Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, and Tajikistan.
> 
> I had to get out a globe and point to the countries on it. For my *history teachers*. (Central Asia actually plays a crucial role in all of European and Asian history, so I found this exceptionally pathetic.) Then I had to give them the ten-minute spiel about the steppe and oasis cultures. :sigh:
> 
> (Ever wondered why I have a healthy disrespect for credentials?)


Were your history teachers also coaches? That was the usual practice in Texas back in the day. The Kyrgyzstan team was never even in a bowl game.


----------



## Ngotwalt

I once said to my tenth grade history teacher. Joseph "Red Scare" McCarthy was a Senator from Wisconsin right? He shrugged his shoulders, no clue. I was right. He had no idea. We did have a few history teachers who were only history teachers, we also had a few who were coaches who really knew history.

Nick


----------



## Palmetto

Ziv said:


> When I was in Nepal, every other kid would be pestering you for pens and/or asking what country and state or province you were from. As soon as you told them your home state or province, they would immediately, correctly, name the capital. Since they didn't have a lot of materials, their teachers emphasized memorizing geographical features and capitals.


I hope they didn't think the capital of Kentucky was edible!


----------



## PaulM

StriderGDM said:


> Can someone please point me to a forum on railroading? I seem to have stumbled on a geography forum....


Not saying this the appropriate place, but apparently not everyone finds geography boring. Come to think it's not that odd that passenger rail fans and interest in geography go together.

I'm embarrassed to admit that one of my childhood hobbies was plotting rail lines found in the Official Railway Guide on highways maps. And that was at a time when the Guide was about 3 inches thick.


----------



## railiner

PaulM said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone please point me to a forum on railroading? I seem to have stumbled on a geography forum....
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying this the appropriate place, but apparently not everyone finds geography boring. Come to think it's not that odd that passenger rail fans and interest in geography go together.
> 
> I'm embarrassed to admit that one of my childhood hobbies was plotting rail lines found in the Official Railway Guide on highways maps. And that was at a time when the Guide was about 3 inches thick.
Click to expand...

Nothing at all to be embarrassed about! It's refreshing to find people that know geography well, without reverting to GPS and the like....


----------



## StriderGDM

railiner said:


> PaulM said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone please point me to a forum on railroading? I seem to have stumbled on a geography forum....
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying this the appropriate place, but apparently not everyone finds geography boring. Come to think it's not that odd that passenger rail fans and interest in geography go together.
> 
> I'm embarrassed to admit that one of my childhood hobbies was plotting rail lines found in the Official Railway Guide on highways maps. And that was at a time when the Guide was about 3 inches thick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nothing at all to be embarrassed about! It's refreshing to find people that know geography well, without reverting to GPS and the like....
Click to expand...

Oh don't get me wrong. I love geography. I even love geography when related to trains. This seems a bit far afield here though. Just me.


----------



## Lonestar648

Have the two new dining cars reached Florida yet? Just anxious to get them serviced so they are ready for daily use.


----------



## A Voice

PaulM said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone please point me to a forum on railroading? I seem to have stumbled on a geography forum....
> 
> 
> 
> Not saying this the appropriate place, but apparently not everyone finds geography boring. Come to think it's not that odd that passenger rail fans and interest in geography go together.
> 
> I'm embarrassed to admit that one of my childhood hobbies was plotting rail lines found in the Official Railway Guide on highways maps. And that was at a time when the Guide was about 3 inches thick.
Click to expand...

I learned U.S. geography very much from the Amtrak National Timetable; Major cities, capitols, distances between regions, etc. Sadly, with the demise of said (printed) timetable, future generations will not have such a pleasure.


----------



## jis

Lonestar648 said:


> Have the two new dining cars reached Florida yet? Just anxious to get them serviced so they are ready for daily use.


Yes they did, just as expected, on the 15th of Dec. by the Meteor. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## JRR

We are on the 97 now with the Annapolis in the consist. Had Hartford on the 98 going north.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> We are on the 97 now with the Annapolis in the consist. Had Hartford on the 98 going north.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


What day were you on Hartford?


----------



## JRR

Dec 14-15.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> Dec 14-15.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Thanks.


----------



## JRR

De nada

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Hytec

Any idea when the V-II sleepers will start being delivered? The V-Is are getting a little long in the tooth. Though 19's car 1910 obviously had just come out of Wilmington shops for its run on 11/28-29/17. Everything worked, even the roomette curtains, and the trucks were still glossy black with no dust, dirt, or grime to be seen anywhere.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Hytec said:


> Any idea when the V-II sleepers will start being delivered? The V-Is are getting a little long in the tooth. Though 19's car 1910 obviously had just come out of Wilmington shops for its run on 11/28-29/17. Everything worked, even the roomette curtains, and the trucks were still glossy black with no dust, dirt, or grime to be seen anywhere.


Probably not until at least 2019.

BTW, Wilmington shops is for the electric engines.

Bear shops is for the NEC coaches.

VI's are taken care of at Hialeah.


----------



## Hytec

AmtrakBlue said:


> Hytec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea when the V-II sleepers will start being delivered? The V-Is are getting a little long in the tooth. Though 19's car 1910 obviously had just come out of Wilmington shops for its run on 11/28-29/17. Everything worked, even the roomette curtains, and the trucks were still glossy black with no dust, dirt, or grime to be seen anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not until at least 2019.
> 
> BTW, Wilmington shops is for the electric engines.
> 
> Bear shops is for the NEC coaches.
> 
> VI's are taken care of at Hialeah.
Click to expand...

Thanks, didn't remember the function of the three shops, if I ever knew.





2019 explains spending the money to rehab V-Is.


----------



## railiner

Hytec said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hytec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea when the V-II sleepers will start being delivered? The V-Is are getting a little long in the tooth. Though 19's car 1910 obviously had just come out of Wilmington shops for its run on 11/28-29/17. Everything worked, even the roomette curtains, and the trucks were still glossy black with no dust, dirt, or grime to be seen anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not until at least 2019.
> 
> BTW, Wilmington shops is for the electric engines.
> 
> Bear shops is for the NEC coaches.
> 
> VI's are taken care of at Hialeah.A
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, didn't remember the function of the three shops, if I ever knew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2019 explains spending the money to rehab V-Is.
Click to expand...

Are any repairs done any more at Sunnyside? At one time it was a pretty major repair facility...not sure anymore.....


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The VII sleepers are not replacing the VI sleepers, just augmenting them.


----------



## OBS

railiner said:


> Hytec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hytec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea when the V-II sleepers will start being delivered? The V-Is are getting a little long in the tooth. Though 19's car 1910 obviously had just come out of Wilmington shops for its run on 11/28-29/17. Everything worked, even the roomette curtains, and the trucks were still glossy black with no dust, dirt, or grime to be seen anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not until at least 2019.
> 
> BTW, Wilmington shops is for the electric engines.
> 
> Bear shops is for the NEC coaches.
> 
> VI's are taken care of at Hialeah.A
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, didn't remember the function of the three shops, if I ever knew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2019 explains spending the money to rehab V-Is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are any repairs done any more at Sunnyside? At one time it was a pretty major repair facility...not sure anymore.....
Click to expand...

Running repairs, no major overhauls....


----------



## cpotisch

Are Jackson and Lansing in service yet? I'm taking #98 on Wednesday (1/3) and would be cool to have a two-week-old diner.

P.S. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!


----------



## JRR

I was on the 98 & 97 last week and had the Hartford and Charleston going and coming back.

Happy New Year also!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## George K

Green Maned Lion said:


> The VII sleepers are not replacing the VI sleepers, just augmenting them.


Is there a need for an additional 25 Viewliner sleepers, considering the original order was for 50?

(not being snarky - being ignorant)


----------



## AmtrakBlue

George K said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> The VII sleepers are not replacing the VI sleepers, just augmenting them.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a need for an additional 25 Viewliner sleepers, considering the original order was for 50?
> 
> (not being snarky - being ignorant)
Click to expand...

I'd say for one thing, there probably aren't enough VI's to cover all the trains while they take some out for refurbishing.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The original intent of the order of VI cars was 100 sleepers, as well as a bunch of diners, coaches, lounges, baggage cars, and i think bag-dorms. The eventual fifty car order crippled the fleet, resulted in several train offs (Broadway, Montrealler, Niagara Rainbow) as well as the removal of sleepers from the Night Owl and truncation of the Silver Palm. So yes, very needed.


----------



## west point

IMHO 25 additional sleepers is not enough. The present bookings on Silver trains seems to indicate both could use up to 8 cars as sleepers. Also one or two 48 seat BC cars as well.

To restore the listed trains would probably take in addition to the present CAF order would be 50 additional sleepers, same number of 48 seat BC cars and 124 - 140 additional single level coaches.

WE can figure about 25 cars to add one car to each of the single level trains. That include maintenance reserves higher during slack periods. BTW there may not be a slack season after New Years day due the snowbirds fleeing the northern states ?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

I dont disagree. I was just making the point they are needed. However, the VII ship has sailed- I am quite certain that on completion of the original order, CAF will burn the facility and then salt the earth before retreating permanently across the ocean, never to bid on an American contract again.

If we do see new LD equipment beyond the already ordered V2s, they certainly wont be built by CAF, and will almost certainly be an off the shelf design- as the VII order should have been to begin with.


----------



## jis

Green Maned Lion said:


> I dont disagree. I was just making the point they are needed. However, the VII ship has sailed- I am quite certain that on completion of the original order, CAF will burn the facility and then salt the earth before retreating permanently across the ocean, never to bid on an American contract again.
> 
> If we do see new LD equipment beyond the already ordered V2s, they certainly wont be built by CAF, and will almost certainly be an off the shelf design- as the VII order should have been to begin with.


While CAF may not bid on any more main line railroad cars, they are already quite entrenched in the US in the Light Rail market, which is also served out of the same plant. So no, they are not going anywhere. They are here to stay.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Regrettable.


----------



## PVD

One car to each current single level LD set would be 17 cars, and of course maint cycles have to be figured. V1 could be protect for either so that doesn't change much. The intangibles, about which all we do is speculate involve deployment of the bag/dorms, any potential through sleeper from the Penn or conversion of a SL train like CL or CONO. Time will tell......


----------



## cpotisch

On #98 now. I just finished breakfast in Hartford. This is my second time in a V-II (the first being Atlanta), and indeed its a very nice car.


----------



## PVD

How was the food, and the service ?


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> How was the food, and the service ?


I got the pancake trio, which was nice and fluffy. I boarded at Delray Beach, and the train was 17 min late (9:39 instead of 9:22), and had to rush straight to the dining car to get seated. Because of that, half the tables were empty, and we didnt need for someone to take our order. I just got the 1:00 lunch reservation, so hopefully this V-II makes a good black bean and corn veggie burger.


----------



## PVD

It has been good in the past by most accounts, hopefully still so.....


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> It has been good in the past by most accounts, hopefully still so.....


I would expect so. As I’ve said, I took ‘Atlanta’ in June, and didn’t have any complaints, so why would there be with ‘Hartford’

My main focus now is on the LSL’s diner, given I’m riding #48 in exactly six weeks.


----------



## PVD

Consistency in service delivery has never been an Amtrak strong suit. It is one of the core reasons why you see so many different opinions expressed here on so many different issues.


----------



## OBS

PVD said:


> Consistency in service delivery has never been an Amtrak strong suit. It is one of the core reasons why you see so many different opinions expressed here on so many different issues.


Isn't that the understatement of the new year!


----------



## PVD

New Year's resolution that I would try to express myself in a "friendlier" manner on line since it is so easy to be misinterpreted (like when you roll your eyes while saying something, which of course no on can see on line)


----------



## JRR

A week ago I was in the Hartford and Johnny was our server. He was really good, extremely friendly and fun. Really added to the diner experience.

I learned from my SCA Alan, that Johnny was a new employee and had just finished his training the previous week.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> A week ago I was in the Hartford and Johnny was our server. He was really good, extremely friendly and fun. Really added to the diner experience.
> 
> I learned from my SCA Alan, that Johnny was a new employee and had just finished his training the previous week.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Back in June, my SCA on #97's name was Johnny. He was fantastic. Was your Johnny new to Amtrak altogether (vs merely being new as a server)?


----------



## cpotisch

Just got back from lunch. (Sorry to monopolize this thread)

My notes:


My veggie burger was great, as always.
My dad really liked his mussels. Shockingly, we can actually say that AMTRAK is good at cooking mussels.
My chocolate raspberry tart was very good, though the raspberry goo on top was a tad too sweet for me
My dad LOVED his 'southern pecan tart'
Overall...

Nice job, Amtrak.

Here are pics of the mussels and the raspberry chocolate tart:

https://ibb.co/kjBZUw

https://ibb.co/hwNf2G


----------



## JRR

Re: Johnny - my understanding is that he was new to Amtrak.

Re: Mussels - They’re very good. Nice big tender ones. The broth is good but I always borrow a little of my wife’s Chardonnay and add it. Super good. I highly recommend them.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cpotisch said:


> My notes:
> 
> 
> My veggie burger was great, as always.
> My dad really liked his mussels. Shockingly, we can actually say that AMTRAK is good at cooking mussels.
> My chocolate raspberry tart was very good, though the raspberry goo on top was a tad too sweet for me
> My dad LOVED his 'southern pecan tart'
> Overall...Nice job, Amtrak.


Very impress with the food. Happy to see someone is put effort into the meals.


----------



## cpotisch

This isn't strictly related to Viewliners, but P42 #42 (Veterans) is leading this train. Definitely a nice color scheme.


----------



## Oreius

I’ve seen videos of the new Viewliner 2 Dining cars. The booths look roomier than what I’ve seen in the cafes/lounges. Is this so? Also, what are the chances I will get one of these new diners on 98 in March?


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

MODERATOR NOTE: this post started a new thread on the topic of Viewliner Diners. The new thread was merged with the existing thread on the same topic.


----------



## the_traveler

The chances are very high as more diners come online. Also most (if not all) heritage diners have been retired.


----------



## GaSteve

The booths aren't any larger, but the area looks bigger because of the upper level windows. The cars ride much better then the heritage cars.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Oreius said:


> I’ve seen videos of the new Viewliner 2 Dining cars. The booths look roomier than what I’ve seen in the cafes/lounges. Is this so? Also, what are the chances I will get one of these new diners on 98 in March?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> MODERATOR NOTE: this post started a new thread on the topic of Viewliner Diners. The new thread was merged with the existing thread on the same topic.


I'd say your chances of getting a VII on 98 is highly probable. 97 & 98 are the trains that break in the newest diners.


----------



## cpotisch

Oreius said:


> I’ve seen videos of the new Viewliner 2 Dining cars. The booths look roomier than what I’ve seen in the cafes/lounges. Is this so? Also, what are the chances I will get one of these new diners on 98 in March?


I don’t see any normal situation where you would end up with a Heritage (vs a V-II). No Heritages are left and the number of V-IIs will only increase. Several Viewliners would have to have been taken out of service for you to not get one.


----------



## west point

We cannot count out Amtrak exercising the CAF option. Of course the contract option has some kind of expiration point. Maybe calendar point. More likely the expiration point is somewhere at a delivery quantity. Maybe when all diners and Bag dorm are delivered might be the point or maybe after 100 are considered fully operational ?

Believe if Amtrak can exercise the option that cars would cost less than Siemens ?


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Im not sure what the issue is with getting that those options are not actually available?


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Green Maned Lion said:


> Im not sure what the issue is with getting that those options are not actually available?


I basically ignore the options, assuming they expired. At best the 70 cars give an idea of what Amtrak thought would be needed or could be used.

That said, I figure if Amtrak/Congress come up with the funds, then CAF would be willing to build more cars. Wouldn't much of the start-up costs, like training and retraining unskilled workers, be N/A for the additional cars. And late changes to the spec should be more subdued. etc)

A reasonable price would help both parties if Amtrak can use more sleepers etc and CAF can make a profit on each one it builds. Assume that at worst CAF makes a proper bid that has them only breaking even at the end of the additional 70-car run, but not losing more on top of the $42 million loss on the first 130 cars. (I'm not remembering for sure if the loss figure was $42 million, but any $40-something million works for this calculation.) A $42 million total loss on 130 cars comes to $323,000 per unit. A $42 million loss on a total of 200 cars comes down to $210,000 each. The larger number of cars for the same (or lower) total loss is less humiliating for CAF and its execs. (How the Hell did you lose $42 million on a lousy $298 million order for only 130 units? Tough question.)

Any order for another batch of Viewliner 2s placed around this time next year (2019) would keep CAF's plant operating another couple of years (2021 or 2022). A lot could change quickly in that time period. I'll avoid too much political prognostication, noting that this is not a political site. But personally I expect a wave election that will change everything in Congress.

Meanwhile, we have come to expect that Amtrak will soon begin to break even on its operations. A lot could change quickly in that event. An ambitious Congress might want Amtrak to start to grow: So order new single-level coaches, lounges, and probably business class cars. Start working to expand the Cardinal to 7 days a week, extend a piece of the Crescent from Birmingham to Dallas-Ft Worth, push Amtrak Virginia trains down to the New River Valley college towns and another one to Norfolk, help fund new corridor service like Baton Rouge-New Orleans-Mobile and New Orleans-Lafayette-Beaumont-Houston-San Antonio and CHI-Champaign-Carbondale-Memphis etc. Then move to change the Capitol Ltd and the City of New Orleans to single-level consists. And then order more V-2 equipment to outfit some of these trains.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The main problem point of production (the car shells) ended long ago. They are just outfitting them again. Restarting production of car shells at this point might as well be from scratch. And I am certain CAF would want nothing to do with it unless they were being paid an absurd amount of money. And maybe not even then.


----------



## StriderGDM

What I've continued to advocate is that NYS should get in on this. Since a good majority of the LSL passes through NYS itself, they should order a "captive" (as much as practical it'll never be 100%) fleet of NYS themed diners and sleepers and outfit the LSL with them. Then turn 448/449 into a separate BOS-CHI train that stops at different stops than the LSL. You leverage the existing traffic, get more sleepers/diners AND NYS also spends its money at home on the cars.

Oh and equip ALL NYS trains that extend beyond ALB with baggage cars.

Work with Vermont on the Ethan Allen.

More jobs for NYS and better trains to boot.


----------



## Trogdor

I don't see any state buying dining and/or sleeping cars. Even Washington and California got rid of full dining car service on their respective trains (both Cascades and San Joaquin used to have dining car-type service on their trains, but now those cars are just used as lounge/table cars with regular cafe-style service).

Further, I don't see any state spending money on a long-distance train that they don't have to (i.e. Lake Shore). It's not like state budgets are flush with cash.


----------



## neroden

Green Maned Lion said:


> The main problem point of production (the car shells) ended long ago. They are just outfitting them again. Restarting production of car shells at this point might as well be from scratch. And I am certain CAF would want nothing to do with it unless they were being paid an absurd amount of money. And maybe not even then.


CAF spent a huge amount of effort recruiting and hiring stainless steel welders to build the shells -- that was the problem point. They need the same workers for their transit contracts. They will NOT want to lay them off, they might never get them back again.


----------



## jis

CAF actually has enough backlog to keep them busy for a while yet. Cranking up a body shell line should not be as expensive as some are suggesting here.


----------



## OBS

Trogdor said:


> I don't see any state buying dining and/or sleeping cars. Even Washington and California got rid of full dining car service on their respective trains (both Cascades and San Joaquin used to have dining car-type service on their trains, but now those cars are just used as lounge/table cars with regular cafe-style service).
> 
> Further, I don't see any state spending money on a long-distance train that they don't have to (i.e. Lake Shore). It's not like state budgets are flush with cash.


Wellll! Long time no see.....


----------



## west point

Still have not gotten any answer on why deliveries are so slow. The question remains - why are all V-2 shells that have been shown are on shop trucks instead of operational trucks ? - needs an answer.

Does anyone know if the V-2 trucks are built by someone different than the Brightline trucks ?


----------



## jis

They are very different trucks. Brightline uses Siemens trucks, not GSIs that V2s use. AFAIK the Brightline trucks are manufactured by Siemens and there is no reason to believe that the GSI trucks for the VIIs were manufactured by Siemens.

BTW, it is not really that unusual for cars to sit on shop trucks while they are being worked on. They are usually trucked on their road trucks rather late in the preparation for delivery workflow.

As for why the delays, no one has been willing to state an exact reasons for such, so it is anyone's guess.


----------



## neroden

It's known that Columbus Castings's factory blew up, and then they shut the company down. They were supposed to manufacture the trucks originally IIRC. So I don't know who's making the trucks now, but that would certainly account for a delay.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ms. Emma Roberts' character should arrive soon.


----------



## Ryan

Nancy Drew?


----------



## west point

So Columbus casting is shut down. Did they sell the casting blueprints and molds to any one else ? If so who ? For the successor if there is one how busy is the new builder ?


----------



## Ziv

Impressive find of a photo! So Madison and Montgomery are next up? And Jackson and Lansing should be seeing service soon or will it take a full month from acceptance from CAF to them actually serving passengers?

Seems like we skipped a few capitals but the results are worth it.

On edit: If I am reading On Track On Line properly, Amtrak received 2 VLII diners in May of last year, 2 in June, none in July, 2 in August, 1 in September, none in October, 2 in November, 2 in December and may receive 2 in January. Call me too optimistic, but it seems like CAF may have gotten into a productive routine. 6 diners in 3 months isn't bad.



Thirdrail7 said:


> Ms. Emma Roberts' character should arrive soon.


----------



## jis

west point said:


> So Columbus casting is shut down. Did they sell the casting blueprints and molds to any one else ? If so who ? For the successor if there is one how busy is the new builder ?


SEPTA managed to get the parts delivered by some other outfit to work around cracking problems in Columbia Casting's castings. Frankly, the GSI trucks and their parts are not rocket science, nor under any sort of IP protection. They have been around for ever, and any casting shop worth its salt should be able to handle it.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> Ms. Emma Roberts' character should arrive soon.


I have to admit, I ran through her entire IMDB page, and I didn't find a single character whose name resembled a city. Or, for that matter, a river (living in hope of more sleepers here)....

... I guess I missed her *third* character in American Horror Story?


----------



## cpotisch

Ziv said:


> Impressive find of a photo! So Madison and Montgomery are next up? And Jackson and Lansing should be seeing service soon or will it take a full month from acceptance from CAF to them actually serving passengers?
> 
> Seems like we skipped a few capitals but the results are worth it.
> 
> On edit: If I am reading On Track On Line properly, Amtrak received 2 VLII diners in May of last year, 2 in June, none in July, 2 in August, 1 in September, none in October, 2 in November, 2 in December and may receive 2 in January. Call me too optimistic, but it seems like CAF may have gotten into a productive routine. 6 diners in 3 months isn't bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ms. Emma Roberts' character should arrive soon.
Click to expand...

How do you guys decode this stuff?


----------



## Ziv

A whole lot of Google, C.





That and the fact that the Madison and Montgomery diners are slated after the diners Jackson and Lansing that were delivered last month.

I just read a synopsis of a couple episodes of American Horror Story. Don't think I will be downloading any episodes any time soon.



cpotisch said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Impressive find of a photo! So Madison and Montgomery are next up? And Jackson and Lansing should be seeing service soon or will it take a full month from acceptance from CAF to them actually serving passengers?
> 
> Seems like we skipped a few capitals but the results are worth it.
> 
> On edit: If I am reading On Track On Line properly, Amtrak received 2 VLII diners in May of last year, 2 in June, none in July, 2 in August, 1 in September, none in October, 2 in November, 2 in December and may receive 2 in January. Call me too optimistic, but it seems like CAF may have gotten into a productive routine. 6 diners in 3 months isn't bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ms. Emma Roberts' character should arrive soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you guys decode this stuff?
Click to expand...


----------



## Ngotwalt

If Madison and Montgomery are coming, that would be...


----------



## cpotisch

Jackson and Lansing were picked up December 11. The cars generally spend a month in Hialeah for completion, so we can expect the two cars to enter service in the next couple days. At that point there will be 13 solid cars (though I'm not gonna go another "13 is the magic number" tangent). So it is quite possible that the LSL gets its diner restored in the coming week or two.


----------



## neroden

Unfortunately I suspect 18 is the magic number. There's no way to tell given that it's up to the whims of Amtrak, but we may be waiting until early April to see the LSL dining cars back.

I'm making my next trip in the spring, so here's hoping it happens by then.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> If Madison and Montgomery are coming, that would be...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CEB2D9D6-8051-49CD-BE5C-8F318A5CFE9B.jpeg




















cpotisch said:


> Jackson and Lansing were picked up December 11. The cars generally spend a month in Hialeah for completion, so we can expect the two cars to enter service in the next couple days. At that point there will be 13 solid cars (though I'm not gonna go another "13 is the magic number" tangent). So it is quite possible that the LSL gets its diner restored in the coming week or two.


I highly doubt that. As for Jackson...........


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Madison and Montgomery are coming, that would be...
> 
> 
> 
> CEB2D9D6-8051-49CD-BE5C-8F318A5CFE9B.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jackson and Lansing were picked up December 11. The cars generally spend a month in Hialeah for completion, so we can expect the two cars to enter service in the next couple days. At that point there will be 13 solid cars (though I'm not gonna go another "13 is the magic number" tangent). So it is quite possible that the LSL gets its diner restored in the coming week or two.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I highly doubt that. As for Jackson...........
Click to expand...

Yeah. I more meant as a sort of theoretically-if-everything-goes-right kind of scenario.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Unfortunately I suspect 18 is the magic number. There's no way to tell given that it's up to the whims of Amtrak, but we may be waiting until early April to see the LSL dining cars back.
> 
> I'm making my next trip in the spring, so here's hoping it happens by then.


Howd you get 18? Thats about a 60% margin. When Lansing is finished, there will be five spares (when only running the SM and Crescent). Requiring 18 cars would mean theres a risk of 7 Viewliner diners breaking simultaneously. I could be wrong, but that seems like overkill.


----------



## jis

Here we go again




People looking for magic numbers and arguing about it


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Would you please explain to me why you think Amtrak is in a mad Escape From New York style dash to add back a full service dining car to the Lake Shore?

I mean, Im sure theyd like to get a return on their new dining car investment, but Im sure that when they announce a Diner back on to the Lake Shore, likely with great fan fare, they want to be sure that it wont get subbed out again a lot more than they want to change car types.

I mean, what you are implying is a bit silly: a quasi governmental organization rushing to do something without at least some kind of deadline? Thats patently absurd.


----------



## A Voice

cpotisch said:


> Yeah. I more meant as a sort of theoretically-if-everything-goes-right kind of scenario.


In theory, the dining car could have been restored to the _Lake Shore Limited_ or _Silver Star _for some time now; There remain a few Heritage cars technically still serviceable (think Thirdrail mentioned several just now falling off the active roster). Thirteen or Eighteen cars doesn't necessarily mean a thing.

But even if a full diner were quickly restored, how do you know the menu would be simultaneously expanded to something more than the Amfleet II ("diner lite") lounge can already handle?



jis said:


> Here we go again
> 
> 
> 
> People looking for magic numbers and arguing about it


So, it is confirmed that 3.14159 dining cars are required for a full (dessert) menu to return to the trains. Good to know.


----------



## KnightRail

jis said:


> Here we go again
> 
> 
> 
> People looking for magic numbers and arguing about it


There must be some amazing prize unbeknownst to some of us for guessing correctly. Seriously though, deployment happens when it happens. Enough of the magic numbers crystal ball hypothetical scenario guessing. Want to guess numbers and see if youre right?, play the lotto. At least that way you can loose money doing so.
Anyway, looks like the usual go-up-to-get Monday and bring-back Tuesday next week.


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here we go again
> 
> 
> 
> People looking for magic numbers and arguing about it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There must be some amazing prize unbeknownst to some of us for guessing correctly. Seriously though, deployment happens when it happens. Enough of the magic numbers crystal ball hypothetical scenario guessing. Want to guess numbers and see if youre right?, play the lotto. At least that way you can loose money doing so.
> Anyway, looks like the usual go-up-to-get Monday and bring-back Tuesday next week.
Click to expand...

Right now I'm just hoping to get a diner when I take the LSL next month. There's obviously no tangible benefit in getting the numbers and timeline right, and while deployment does happen when it happens, some people (like me) are curious about what to expect, and make guesses accordingly.


----------



## jis

With Amtrak, just like with your run of the mill airline, Que sera sera is the best approach.


----------



## Trogdor

The problem with trying to guess a "magic number" is the assumption that Amtrak actually has a magic number of their own.

Even if the diner was pulled due to lack of serviceable equipment a couple years ago (or however long ago it was), changing circumstances in the mean time may mean that sufficient equipment won't immediately result in the restoration fo dining car service.

Has there been a recent public statement from Amtrak indicating the dining cars are going to return?

Even hearing stuff from "friends who work at Amtrak" has limited credibility because decisions like these are often not made by a single person (even something as relatively simple as changing the Acela schedule on Saturday goes through a planning review, a financial review comparing revenue gain/loss to crew turn costs/savings and what have you), so even if someone "fairly high up" wants to do it, that's not guarantee enough that it will happen.


----------



## jis

Well, Anderson did make noises to that effect at the NARP Meeting in Chicago. But I am not sure that that is a public announcement necessarily.


----------



## OBS

Trogdor said:


> The problem with trying to guess a "magic number" is the assumption that Amtrak actually has a magic number of their own.
> 
> Even if the diner was pulled due to lack of serviceable equipment a couple years ago (or however long ago it was), changing circumstances in the mean time may mean that sufficient equipment won't immediately result in the restoration fo dining car service.
> 
> Has there been a recent public statement from Amtrak indicating the dining cars are going to return?
> 
> Even hearing stuff from "friends who work at Amtrak" has limited credibility because decisions like these are often not made by a single person (even something as relatively simple as changing the Acela schedule on Saturday goes through a planning review, a financial review comparing revenue gain/loss to crew turn costs/savings and what have you), so even if someone "fairly high up" wants to do it, that's not guarantee enough that it will happen.


----------



## west point

Could it be that there is not personnel available to work more train routes yet ? Bidding rules might be complicated ?


----------



## pennyk

Thirdrail7 said:


> I highly doubt that. As for Jackson...........


Jackson is not on today's (1/10) train 98.


----------



## Anderson

My guess is that the LSL's diner will get restored in line with the next bid rotation and/or menu change (since the latter probably involve approximate quantities). We're more-or-less to the point that a diner _can_ be restored, in terms of car counts; the question now becomes the ability to do so in terms of staffing, etc. Also remember: Just because they swap in a dining car doesn't mean they'll be putting the menu back where it was just yet.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

pennyk said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that. As for Jackson...........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jackson is not on today's (1/10) train 98.
Click to expand...

I think he said in the other VII thread that it’s hanging out in Miami till needed.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

Anderson said:


> My guess is that the LSL's diner will get restored in line with the next bid rotation and/or menu change (since the latter probably involve approximate quantities). We're more-or-less to the point that a diner _can_ be restored, in terms of car counts; the question now becomes the ability to do so in terms of staffing, etc. Also remember: Just because they swap in a dining car doesn't mean they'll be putting the menu back where it was just yet.


Even if they don't restore the full menu, there's quite a difference in ambience between the diner-lite and the V-II. One has curtains, silver trim, two rows of windows. The other is a tube with limited visibility, a trash can in plane sight, and a counter splitting the car.


----------



## Anderson

cpotisch said:


> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is that the LSL's diner will get restored in line with the next bid rotation and/or menu change (since the latter probably involve approximate quantities). We're more-or-less to the point that a diner _can_ be restored, in terms of car counts; the question now becomes the ability to do so in terms of staffing, etc. Also remember: Just because they swap in a dining car doesn't mean they'll be putting the menu back where it was just yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if they don't restore the full menu, there's quite a difference in ambience between the diner-lite and the V-II. One has curtains, silver trim, two rows of windows. The other is a tube with limited visibility, a trash can in plane sight, and a counter splitting the car.
Click to expand...

Oh, I agree. Heck, I'd love to see a major order of VII diners put into service replacing cafes (and allowing those cafes to, in turn, be rolled into another dozen or two dozen cars to augment the Amfleet coach fleet) since at the cost of around two dozen non-rev seats in the cafe you'd get a full car of revenue seats in return.

One other thing to consider is that technically there may be some needed training on the new cars, which would also point to this playing out on a bid cycle.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Jackson is on 98(11). Currently stuck in Miami due to a trespasser strike by Tri-Rail.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakLKL said:


> Jackson is on 98(11). Currently stuck in Miami due to a trespasser strike by Tri-Rail.


Yaaaaaaaaaayyyy!


----------



## me_little_me

west point said:


> Could it be that there is not personnel available to work more train routes yet ? Bidding rules might be complicated ?


Nope! Not enough executives to make a decision. Appropriations needed from congress to add sufficient management slots to decide what to do with all the diners.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Is it too late to make them cafeteria (not cafe) cars? How about a buffet car?


----------



## PerRock

Thirdrail7 said:


> Is it too late to make them cafeteria (not cafe) cars? How about a buffet car?


what do you expect the difference to be?

peter


----------



## A Voice

Thirdrail7 said:


> Is it too late to make them cafeteria (not cafe) cars? How about a buffet car?


Done well, could be a winning plan.



PerRock said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it too late to make them cafeteria (not cafe) cars? How about a buffet car?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what do you expect the difference to be?
> 
> peter
Click to expand...

Cafeteria = Piccadilly (server plates your selections as you move along serving line) and buffet = Golden Corral (you plate your own servings, such as from many salad bars), or similar, although I believe the terms are sometimes used interchangeably even in cases where they shouldn't be. Auto Train was once essentially a cafeteria setup, which seems more practical.


----------



## Steve4031

Think inexperienced people carrying plates overloaded with food on a silver service train rolling down the NEC at 110 mph, and then hitting a interlocking where 3 tracks are reduced to 2 such as at gunpowder or havre de grace, and you will understand why buffet and cafeteria style would not work.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Steve4031 said:


> Think inexperienced people carrying plates overloaded with food on a silver service train rolling down the NEC at 110 mph, and then hitting a interlocking where 3 tracks are reduced to 2 such as at gunpowder or havre de grace, and you will understand why buffet and cafeteria style would not work.


Back in 1987 the food was cafeteria style on a Sliver train and after you payed for your meals a Amtrak employee carry it to your table.


----------



## A Voice

Steve4031 said:


> Think inexperienced people carrying plates overloaded with food on a silver service train rolling down the NEC at 110 mph, and then hitting a interlocking where 3 tracks are reduced to 2 such as at gunpowder or havre de grace, and you will understand why buffet and cafeteria style would not work.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


So what's different now than when it worked previously?


----------



## PVD

Who said it worked well? Besides, that was before we entered the litigation universe.


----------



## Steve4031

I remember the employees carrying the food then, but figured cost cutting would eliminate that position.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Green Maned Lion

You only need three people: a cook, a server, and a carrier.


----------



## OBS

Green Maned Lion said:


> You only need three people: a cook, a server, and a carrier.


With 3 people you can run full dining car....


----------



## Acela150

Steve4031 said:


> Think inexperienced people carrying plates overloaded with food on a silver service train rolling down the NEC at 110 mph, and then hitting a interlocking where 3 tracks are reduced to 2 such as at gunpowder or havre de grace, and you will understand why buffet and cafeteria style would not work.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


You obviously don't get sarcasm..


----------



## Steve4031

Acela150 said:


> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think inexperienced people carrying plates overloaded with food on a silver service train rolling down the NEC at 110 mph, and then hitting a interlocking where 3 tracks are reduced to 2 such as at gunpowder or havre de grace, and you will understand why buffet and cafeteria style would not work.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously don't get sarcasm..
Click to expand...

huh?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## daybeers

Steve4031 said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steve4031 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think inexperienced people carrying plates overloaded with food on a silver service train rolling down the NEC at 110 mph, and then hitting a interlocking where 3 tracks are reduced to 2 such as at gunpowder or havre de grace, and you will understand why buffet and cafeteria style would not work.
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously don't get sarcasm..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> huh?
Click to expand...

Easy, Acela. Steve, I think Thirdrail was being sarcastic, evidenced by the side-looking emoji.


----------



## Steve4031

I missed the sarcasm emoji. No disrespect meant to 3rd rail. Sorry about the confusion.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Green Maned Lion

OBS said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> You only need three people: a cook, a server, and a carrier.
> 
> 
> 
> With 3 people you can run full dining car....
Click to expand...

The advantage to the buffet layout isnt so much employee cuts, but higher throughput.


----------



## Thirdrail7

No worries, Steve4031. I was kidding about the buffet car but I have always thought the restoration of the cafeteria (not cafe) car was a good idea.

The LSA could still run it and you'd have a nice, eastern lounge with actual views. For those of you that are confused, there used to be a couple of heritage, self service "cafeteria car." I've looked all over for pictures and this is the closest thing I could find:







Basically, the car was stocked with sandwiches, heat and eat meals, snacks and beverages. The passengers had access to the microwaves, coffee machines and hot water. Heck, if my memory is correct, the car even had a toaster.

If they decided against full service dining cars, you could probably remove the wall around the kitchen and open the area for use.


----------



## Steve4031

I understand now. Your picture reminds me of the layout on some snack bar areas in the lower level of a sightseer lounge. That would be ok with me. With the big windows and more tables this would be better than current single level amcafes.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Dutchrailnut

passengers had access to microwave ?? there is huge no no for Health authorities, just imagine mommy drying those wet baby cloths or guy who **** himself , drying his BVD's after rinsing them.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Actually, thats not what I was talking about. That was an automat style car used on, IIRC the Pere Marquette as an experiment.

On the Florida trains they had an actual cafeteria set up that consisted of two cars: one with a kitchen, and a school cafeteria-style serving area, and a second consisting of just tables. The kitchen was staffed by a cooking team (there was more than one, but I was too young to remember), the serving area consisted of another two people which would allow them to serve two at once. There was a further number of people that carried trays for passengers to a table in the other car, anc also wiped down the table when its use was finished.

The advantage of this set up is throughput- it could seat about 100 people in 25 rows of booths, cooked the food enmass, and did not really engender the lingering conversations a regular dining car did, probably allowing 45 minute turn overs, so a 3 hour service could feed 400 passengers. It would also likely allow enough food to be stored to permit such loads.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Self service microwaves occur all over the place.


----------



## PerRock

You're thinking of the Automat car.





peter


----------



## Thirdrail7

Dutchrailnut said:


> passengers had access to microwave ?? there is huge no no for Health authorities, just imagine mommy drying those wet baby cloths or guy who **** himself , drying his BVD's after rinsing them.


BVD's????????????



I haven't heard that term in years!!! You're showing you age, big boy!! At any rate, I did hear this is one of the reasons they didn't bring back the concept. However, it IS worth noting:



Green Maned Lion said:


> Self service microwaves occur all over the place.


They are allowed in other public places. I suppose there may be better attention to details at a fixed location.


----------



## neroden

The actual FDA rule is that microwaves must be *either* self-service or staff-only. I.e., if it's self-service, staff can't use it. Funny rule, but there you go.


----------



## George K

neroden said:


> The actual FDA rule is that microwaves must be *either* self-service or staff-only. I.e., if it's self-service, staff can't use it. Funny rule, but there you go.


Interesting.

Has anyone ever seen a "self-service" only microwave on any train?


----------



## Seaboard92

George K said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The actual FDA rule is that microwaves must be *either* self-service or staff-only. I.e., if it's self-service, staff can't use it. Funny rule, but there you go.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.
> Has anyone ever seen a "self-service" only microwave on any train?
Click to expand...

*Raises hand. Do PVs count because I've seen plenty of them. And I've used them after passengers as a member of the crew. I guess I should turn myself into the FDA now.


----------



## PerRock

George K said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> The actual FDA rule is that microwaves must be *either* self-service or staff-only. I.e., if it's self-service, staff can't use it. Funny rule, but there you go.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> Has anyone ever seen a "self-service" only microwave on any train?
Click to expand...

There are two sitting on the counter here in this Amtrak Automat car:











(both photos from Hebner's)

peter


----------



## Thirdrail7

That's not exactly the car I was on in the 90s, PerRock. It looked similar but instead of vending machines, it resembled the picture I posted with cabinets and refrigerators of food. It DID have two microwaves and next to them sat coffee machines, teas and condiments.

At any rate, Excelsior has powered up with orders to pursue.


----------



## A Voice

Thirdrail7 said:


> That's not exactly the car I was on in the 90s, PerRock. It looked similar but instead of vending machines, it resembled the picture I posted with cabinets and refrigerators of food. It DID have two microwaves and next to them sat coffee machines, teas and condiments.
> 
> At any rate, Excelsior has powered up with orders to pursue.


Did you remember to remove anything from her main transwarp computer drive?


----------



## neroden

There are a number of cafes around my locality which have microwaves prominently marked "CUSTOMER ONLY" and "STAFF ONLY".


----------



## Green Maned Lion

The FDA is mostly a joke anyway. Natural and artificial flavors may be added.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Thirdrail7 said:


> That's not exactly the car I was on in the 90s, PerRock. It looked similar but instead of vending machines, it resembled the picture I posted with cabinets and refrigerators of food. It DID have two microwaves and next to them sat coffee machines, teas and condiments.
> 
> At any rate, Excelsior has powered up with orders to pursue.


Give my regards to Captain Sulu.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Mady and Monty have left the building.

Nick


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ngotwalt said:


> Mady and Monty have left the building.
> 
> Nick









Fleet one! On the alert!


----------



## VT Hokie

In order to keep it out of the update thread, I wanted to ask in response to ThirdRail's comment there, what's happening to 8400?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Route maintenance was discussed a few pages back.


----------



## KnightRail

VT Hokie said:


> In order to keep it out of the update thread, I wanted to ask in response to ThirdRail's comment there, what's happening to 8400?


Still in the pitching rotation. Just arrived back in NY today after making a shortened Crescent round trip to Atlanta.


----------



## cpotisch

Why do they bother switching up the diners so often?


----------



## jis

Maybe they actually move entire consists or big chunks around from train to train to substitute bad ordered equipment in one so that it can be fixed and then put into a consist that departs later. I know this sort of thing happens at Sunnyside for example.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## LookingGlassTie

Not sure if it has been mentioned already in this thread, but does Amtrak have any solid plans (or at least a desire) to order any Viewliner II coaches? If so, how would they be different from the Amfleets?


----------



## Ryan

No, they don’t.


----------



## cpotisch

LookingGlassTie said:


> Not sure if it has been mentioned already in this thread, but does Amtrak have any solid plans (or at least a desire) to order any Viewliner II coaches? If so, how would they be different from the Amfleets?


I can't imagine Amtrak ordering V-II coaches. CAF has finished producing the car bodies, so they would have to re-open that production line and design/build the new interiors. Plus, because the V-II order have been such an utter disaster for CAF, I suspect they would fight 'Trak tooth and nail. It would be cool to have the double row of windows in coach, but I can't imagine this coming to fruition.


----------



## DCAKen

> It would be cool to have the double row of windows in coach, but I can't imagine this coming to fruition.


I can't imagine how you'd have a double row of windows in a coach and still have overhead luggage racks


----------



## A Voice

DCAKen said:


> It would be cool to have the double row of windows in coach, but I can't imagine this coming to fruition.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't imagine how you'd have a double row of windows in a coach and still have overhead luggage racks
Click to expand...

Not all Viewliners have a second row of windows (or even a single row...), nor is it a requirement. But just for the sake of argument, if passengers can ride next to that window in an upper berth, I'm not sure why my suitcase couldn't in a luggage rack.

Unless plans have changed, Amtrak does indeed intend to order replacement (Amfleet II) coaches and lounges. What form those might take (Viewliner or something else) and from what manufacturer (CAF, Siemens, Alstom, etc.) is little more than speculation at this point.


----------



## tommylicious

what's the whereabouts of the 2 most recently released VLIID's?


----------



## A Voice

tommylicious said:


> what's the whereabouts of the 2 most recently released VLIID's?


Southbound on #97 today or tomorrow.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

LookingGlassTie said:


> Not sure if it has been mentioned already in this thread, but does Amtrak have any solid plans (or at least a desire) to order any Viewliner II coaches? If so, how would they be different from the Amfleets?


Viewliners made sense for new diners and 25 more sleepers, and Amtrak was in hella hurry to get them, and new baggage cars, as the Heritage equipment was becoming unusable. And an order for batches of specialty cars was small enuff to fit into Amtrak's budget.

But Amtrak's next big order(s) will be big: replacing hundreds of aging coaches and lounges. For single-level equipment alone it will probably be over a Billion. Meanwhile Amtrak has been moving to standardize its equipment, locomotives and passengers cars, and major parts or sets of parts used in them. Now Amtrak doesn't want to order a batch of Viewliner coaches when it hopes to be getting 600 or 700 Next Generation coaches sometime in the 2020s.

Some of us spend a lot of our wishes wishing for one more batch of Viewliners. More sleepers for the current trains and maybe some more baggage cars, perhaps even a handful more diners. Then without more Viewliner equipment, it's hard to see adding even one or two new or revived trains to the national system. With another 20 Viewliner sleepers, five more diners, and five more baggage cars, you could equip a "Broadway Ltd." train East Coast to Chicago, using coaches from the huge Next Generation equipment order coming soon. Without more Viewliners, growing the Amtrak LD system just won't be possible for years to come.


----------



## Ngotwalt

I very much doubt anyone will stand a chance against Siemens for new single level cars. They have a production line up and running, with several hundred standing orders and options. No one else has that right now for single level intercity cars.

Nick


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Why, precisely, does an order for any additional diners and/or sleepers have to be based on the Viewliner car body? The Siemens carbody is demonstrably capable of being adapted to both diner and sleeper configurations.


----------



## SanDiegan

pennyk said:


> tommylicious said:
> 
> 
> 
> How was the ride in Annapolis? Ambiance? Sound? Lighting? Was the food good?
> 
> 
> 
> The ride was quite nice; ambiance was very nice. Lighting was good and there are shades that can be lowered when the sun is too strong. Some people pulled shades this morning during breakfast.
> 
> I did not notice a difference in sound. The diner was not crowded during lunch or breakfast, but was full during dinner. Noise levels seemed quite acceptable. I had no problems hearing my tablemates. I am not sure if it had anything to do with the new diner, but there were no crying babies or screaming children, although there are plenty of children on the train because of the President's Day holiday in the north.
> 
> Yes, I thought the food was good each meal (however, I saw no difference between old diner food and new diner food).
Click to expand...

President's day is only in "the north" ?


----------



## A Voice

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why, precisely, does an order for any additional diners and/or sleepers have to be based on the Viewliner car body? The Siemens carbody is demonstrably capable of being adapted to both diner and sleeper configurations.


It doesn't; The Viewliner is but one possibility. Still, it is just as valid to turn the question around, and ask why base additional cars (presumably including coaches) on a completely different platform when the rest of the train consists of Viewliners? There is something to be said for both standardization and aesthetics.

While Amtrak has yet to even issue a RFP for Amfleet replacements (nor is one likely imminent) some rail buffs practically already have the contract awarded to Siemens. For all any of us knows at this point, the contract will eventually go to CAF or Alstom or even Joe's Car Foundry & Bait Shop.


----------



## PVD

Anything new is likely to be a much more modern design than the VL. Even the next gen equipment committee standards for single level cars are likely to be updated before Amtrak gets new cars. Sourcing trucks is an issue that will have to be resolved. The greatest likelihood is roof mounted packaged units at each end. Lighting, wi-fi, communications, at seat power and charging, all will be new. So other than shell shape, very little will likely be present that makes a VL any more desirable than any other solutions. Matching car shapes in a consist is probably not considered important to anyone other than some of us. everyone seems to say "Siemens", but remember, companies may be very busy, and not chase after work if their lines are at max. Adding additional production either in a second shift or more space can make a big difference in pricing. If an RFP has targeted delivery dates, this can be a major factor. Can I produce an item at a certain price, yes, can I produce it at that price when you need or want it, that may be an entirely different story.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Im not awarding it to Siemens unilaterally, but commonality of spare parts, a running production line, two quality products out there already in Amtrak service. Oh by the way the Siemens cars are the same shape as Viewliners or close to it (not that it matters). I merely suggest Siemens has some major advantages over other manufacturers. Most of all, the cars are in service and Siemens has demonstrated they can deliver those cars on time an in budget. Who else can make that last claim? Certainly not CAF, could you imagine a 600 car coach order being delivered 2 cars per month or even six or eight (6.5 years at eight cars a month) I think all the SIIs made in two years. Im simply saying Siemens has a lot going for them. Finally a Viewliner coach would need engineering and design work. Viaggio USA coaches probably wont need any.

Nick


----------



## PVD

You are making a more tempered and reasonable statement than many others have. There are folks who think it is a slam dunk.


----------



## jis

Viaggio USA's will probably need some internal furnishing design work, specially for the Sleepers, if they come to pass. But I agree, the basic shell and trucks and HVAC appears to be pretty solid and reusable as is.

But then again remember, many here thought that the Velaro was a slam dunk for Acela II too. So one can never be sure for sure until the proverbial fat lady sings.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Green Maned Lion said:


> Why, precisely, does an order for any additional diners and/or sleepers have to be based on the Viewliner car body? The Siemens carbody is demonstrably capable of being adapted to both diner and sleeper configurations.


This is comforting to know, thanks. Of course, nothing is easy. adapting the Siemens single-levels for sleepers and diners could lead to delays. And if they do get ordered and arrive, then it will be mix-and-match sleepers in the yards, while Amtrak is craving interchangeability and standardization. Not least, the Big order to renew the fleet of coaches and lounges could tie up the production line for 6 or 7 years after it starts up, putting additional sleepers -- and new LD trains -- far down the road. But better this level of tangle than if the Siemens (or other new coach model) can't easily include sleepers at all.


----------



## WoodyinNYC

Ngotwalt said:


> Im not awarding it to Siemens unilaterally, but commonality of spare parts, a running production line, two quality products out there already in Amtrak service. Oh by the way the Siemens cars are the same shape as Viewliners or close to it (not that it matters).
> 
> Most of all, the cars are in service and Siemens has demonstrated they can deliver those cars on time an in budget. Who else can make that last claim? Certainly not CAF. Could you imagine a 600 car coach order being delivered 2 cars per month or even six or eight (6.5 years at eight cars a month) ...


LOL. Without going to read it again, I'm just sure that the Fleet Plan indeed intends for the next Big order to be for 600 or more coaches at about 100 cars per year, or two per week, over about 6 or 7 years.

Anyway, I have the idea that the CAF facility is about the right size for batch orders (like 130 Viewliners), but for 100 coaches a year, Amtrak could want a bigger plant than Elmira. (Just my hunch.)

I appreciate that the Siemens coaches (and probably almost all the other builders' versions) are close to the same size and shape. They don't have to look like North Korean soldiers marching in parade trying to look as identical as robots. I'll be happy when the fake fuselage look is out of here.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

WoodyinNYC said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why, precisely, does an order for any additional diners and/or sleepers have to be based on the Viewliner car body? The Siemens carbody is demonstrably capable of being adapted to both diner and sleeper configurations.
> 
> 
> 
> This is comforting to know, thanks. Of course, nothing is easy. adapting the Siemens single-levels for sleepers and diners could lead to delays. And if they do get ordered and arrive, then it will be mix-and-match sleepers in the yards, while Amtrak is craving interchangeability and standardization. Not least, the Big order to renew the fleet of coaches and lounges could tie up the production line for 6 or 7 years after it starts up, putting additional sleepers -- and new LD trains -- far down the road. But better this level of tangle than if the Siemens (or other new coach model) can't easily include sleepers at all.
Click to expand...

While some design work would probably be required to re-orient the car for American style sleeping compartments (as opposed to Euro-style), Diners similar to those used in the US have already been built on this design for Russian Railways.


----------



## VT Hokie

A Voice said:


> While Amtrak has yet to even issue a RFP for Amfleet replacements (nor is one likely imminent) some rail buffs practically already have the contract awarded to Siemens. For all any of us knows at this point, the contract will eventually go to CAF or Alstom or even Joe's Car Foundry & Bait Shop.


I'm hoping for a Super Steel Schenectady revival!


----------



## jis

ROTFL!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## IndyLions

Just arrived a little while ago in DC on the Crescent (20) after my first experience in a new diner. I’m 90% sure it was Annapolis. Real silverware, cloth napkins and VERY tasty freshly made pancakes. Thought the decor was lovely, and the car rode very well. If I had a real coffee cup it would have been an A+!




Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## VT Hokie

The cars seem very nice! It may take CAF forever to make 'em, but they seem to be putting out a good product.


----------



## cpotisch

IndyLions said:


> Just arrived a little while ago in DC on the Crescent (20) after my first experience in a new diner. I’m 90% sure it was Annapolis. Real silverware, cloth napkins and VERY tasty freshly made pancakes. Thought the decor was lovely, and the car rode very well. If I had a real coffee cup it would have been an A+!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_5842.jpg
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Annapolis is car 68001. There will be a nameplate on the wall with that number. It is also the only V-II built in 2016, (which is also written there). If it had shown any of that, you were in Annapolis.

As to the pancakes, I had them a few weeks ago in 68013, and I thought they were great.


----------



## Thirdrail7

IndyLions said:


> Just arrived a little while ago in DC on the Crescent (20) after my first experience in a new diner. I’m 90% sure it was Annapolis.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


It did have the Annapolis. Additionally, Lansing is released for service and is currently protecting in HIA.


----------



## TiBike

Nice picture. Looks like at least one of the tables is surplus to requirements, though.


----------



## west point

Talked to a SCA. The only problem she said was lack of storage. Maybe store some items in the baggage car ?


----------



## LookingGlassTie

IndyLions said:


> Just arrived a little while ago in DC on the Crescent (20) after my first experience in a new diner. I’m 90% sure it was Annapolis. Real silverware, cloth napkins and VERY tasty freshly made pancakes. Thought the decor was lovely, and the car rode very well. If I had a real coffee cup it would have been an A+!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_5842.jpg
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


That is awesome. I hope to eat in one of those new diners someday!


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> IndyLions said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just arrived a little while ago in DC on the Crescent (20) after my first experience in a new diner. I’m 90% sure it was Annapolis.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> It did have the Annapolis. Additionally, Lansing is released for service and is currently protecting in HIA.
Click to expand...

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tommylicious

This is a brilliant idea. They just have to install food safe racks, etc. But, those VL baggage cars are like...80% empty most of the time?



west point said:


> Talked to a SCA. The only problem she said was lack of storage. Maybe store some items in the baggage car ?


----------



## OBS

west point said:


> Talked to a SCA. The only problem she said was lack of storage. Maybe store some items in the baggage car ?


According to another crew member on SM two weeks ago, another challenge is the grill is considerably smaller than the heritage diners. Thus, especially at breakfast, it can slow down service if you have a lot of pancake/egg/omelette orders....


----------



## Thirdrail7

OBS said:


> According to another crew member on SM two weeks ago, another challenge is the grill is considerably smaller than the heritage diners. Thus, especially at breakfast, it can slow down service if you have a lot of pancake/egg/omelette orders....


Is that stuff still cooked to order or are they reheated on the grill?


----------



## OBS

Cooked to order. My tablemate had egg shell fragments in his eggs....The french toast, I think, is pre made and warmed on grill. Pancakes cooked to order.

I was watching the service at breakfast (first ride in new diners) and was wondering why the Continental orders were appearing much quicker than rest of food and then heard that explanation and it all fit together.


----------



## cpotisch

So with my trip on LSL #48 coming happening in just 28 days (2/21), it seems there will not be a full diner in time.


----------



## MikefromCrete

cpotisch said:


> So with my trip on LSL #48 coming happening in just 28 days (2/21), it seems there will not be a full diner in time.


Amtrak hasn't made any announcement about replacing the diners yet, so anything is possible.


----------



## Ziv

Too bad about the shrunken grill. I wonder how much input actual cooks got with regards to the layout of the kitchen and the size of the various appliances.



OBS said:


> Cooked to order. My tablemate had egg shell fragments in his eggs....The french toast, I think, is pre made and warmed on grill. Pancakes cooked to order.
> 
> I was watching the service at breakfast (first ride in new diners) and was wondering why the Continental orders were appearing much quicker than rest of food and then heard that explanation and it all fit together.


----------



## OBS

As I recall, they met with employees before designing these cars to get their input. Of course what happened to the input is anyone's guess at this point....


----------



## Ryan

And ran the 8400 as a prototype to collect data and feedback.

Again, who knows how much of that was implemented, but they at least did some level of legwork.


----------



## west point

When has anyone gotten every thing correct when designing a new product ? Probably the grill problem will have a fix some time in the future ?


----------



## Bob Dylan

west point said:


> When has anyone gotten every thing correct when designing a new product ? Probably the grill problem will have a fix some time in the future ?


Never be "the first on your block" to own a new product!


----------



## Palmetto

Then, when they get all the kinks worked out, they discontinue the product!


----------



## willem

Palmetto said:


> Then, when they get all the kinks worked out, they discontinue the product!


That's the truth!

For some reason, that reminded me of the old joke about hardware engineers making computers faster and software engineers making computers slower—and the software engineers are winning.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Lansing is making its first run today.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> Lansing is making its first run today.


Yay! Do you know why it took Jackson/Lansing a whole two months to enter service?


----------



## tommylicious

Lemme guess...just keep piling the VL Diners on the Silver Service? Anything heading to the LSL??


----------



## cpotisch

tommylicious said:


> Lemme guess...just keep piling the VL Diners on the Silver Service? Anything heading to the LSL??


24 days until I ride #48. I've been praying non-stop.


----------



## Steve4031

tommylicious said:


> Lemme guess...just keep piling the VL Diners on the Silver Service? Anything heading to the LSL??


They send them to Miami first so that Hialeah shops can prepare them to enter service. I'm watching lsl you and hoping to see them on there too.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

Madison and Montgomery should really provide them with enough cars to equip the LSL, though I suppose they might wait until they have two more. If they don't have it equipped by mid-March, it'll be time to complain.


----------



## Green Maned Lion

Oh, Ive never seen you complain, Nate.


----------



## lordsigma

Other than reinstating the diner on the Lake Shore Limited, is there a consensus on whats going to be done with the remaining Diners? Still 7 left to be delivered.


----------



## Ziv

Maybe since Amtrak boasts about how modular the new Viewliner design is, they can change the layout a bit, remove the kitchen and insert lounge/sight-seer seating and use them to replace the retiring.Pacific Parlour Cars?

;-)



lordsigma said:


> Other than reinstating the diner on the Lake Shore Limited, is there a consensus on whats going to be done with the remaining Diners? Still 7 left to be delivered.


----------



## Blackwolf

Ziv said:


> Maybe since Amtrak boasts about how modular the new Viewliner design is, they can change the layout a bit, remove the kitchen and insert lounge/sight-seer seating and use them to replace the retiring.Pacific Parlour Cars?
> 
> ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Other than reinstating the diner on the Lake Shore Limited, is there a consensus on whats going to be done with the remaining Diners? Still 7 left to be delivered.
Click to expand...


----------



## Acela150

Green Maned Lion said:


> Oh, Ive never seen you complain, Nate.


LOL!!!

I swear everyone is "OMG When is the LSL getting a diner again?" How about we deliver the rest of the diners first?


----------



## StriderGDM

Ziv said:


> Maybe since Amtrak boasts about how modular the new Viewliner design is, they can change the layout a bit, remove the kitchen and insert lounge/sight-seer seating and use them to replace the retiring.Pacific Parlour Cars?
> 
> ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> lordsigma said:
> 
> 
> 
> Other than reinstating the diner on the Lake Shore Limited, is there a consensus on whats going to be done with the remaining Diners? Still 7 left to be delivered.
Click to expand...

They are modular, but I don't think any of the modules include staircases.


----------



## Ziv

Strider, I am sure they can do something! Just pop a new module in and, SHAZAM! You have a new PPC!

Finding space for the theater might be a bit difficult, but these cars are MODULAR!

;-)

On a more serious note, are we actually getting close to getting new VLII sleepers? Like early next year, maybe? I believe that there are 7 diners left to be delivered, and 2 diners have been delivered but aren't in service yet. And we have been seeing 2 cars delivered nearly every month for a little while. I am trying to remember the order, was it baggage, then diners, then bag/dorms, then, eventually, regular sleepers? And the bag/dorm order got cut to just 10 at some point if I remember correctly. So 3 or 4 months of diners, 5 months of bag/dorms, and in around 10 or 11 months, is it possible that we might see a sleeping car? Or will the change to bag/dorms take a large hit on the delivery schedule? Ok, the last one is impossible to predict with any accuracy. But it almost seems like the answer to "Are we there yet?!" could change within a year.


----------



## StriderGDM

Correct, bag/dorms are next. That said, I suspect they'll be a few month delay switching things over.

But once the first bag/dorms come on line, that'll be the first revenue expansion of the Viewliner fleet (since they can start to free up the sleeping space in sleepers that the crew is currently using.)


----------



## Anthony V

Has Albany been delivered yet? I read that there were problems with that diner several months ago, but I haven't heard anything since. Anyone know what the status of Albany is?


----------



## StriderGDM

My completely unofficial understanding is that Albany will be among the last to be delivered. The problems found were deep enough it was considered easier to fix them in the ones that weren't fully assembled and then go back and do major rework on Albany.

In either case, there's no huge rush. In a month or two, Amtrak will have more diners than it currently has routes to use them on.


----------



## VentureForth

Why are they bothering with Bag/Dorms? What are the longest VL routes? All are only one night - right? On the other hand, if the baggage cars are so under utilized, why not ONLY bag/dorms?


----------



## Blackwolf

VentureForth said:


> Why are they bothering with Bag/Dorms? What are the longest VL routes? All are only one night - right? *On the other hand, if the baggage cars are so under utilized, why not ONLY bag/dorms?*


The logical answer is cost.

Bag-only cars are probably at least 1/3rd cheaper per car than a bag-dorm.


----------



## tricia

Blackwolf said:


> VentureForth said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are they bothering with Bag/Dorms? What are the longest VL routes? All are only one night - right? *On the other hand, if the baggage cars are so under utilized, why not ONLY bag/dorms?*
> 
> 
> 
> The logical answer is cost.
> 
> Bag-only cars are probably at least 1/3rd cheaper per car than a bag-dorm.
Click to expand...

However "cheap" they are, if they're not being used very much, are they really cost-effective?


----------



## StriderGDM

There are apparently some routes where a baggage car is overkill, such as LSL where you probably don't need TWO full baggage cars. So having a baggage/dorm gets you a baggage car for the NYP-ALB leg and frees up sleeper space.

One real advantage of a baggage/dorm is the crew can be fully isolated from the riff-raff, err customers. (jokes aside, privacy is nice for this).

So if you have a route that doesn't need a full baggage car, swap out the baggage car for a baggage/dorm and you're all set.

And most likely this means the possibility of adding baggage to other trains in the future.


----------



## Anthony V

StriderGDM said:


> My completely unofficial understanding is that Albany will be among the last to be delivered. The problems found were deep enough it was considered easier to fix them in the ones that weren't fully assembled and then go back and do major rework on Albany.
> 
> In either case, there's no huge rush. In a month or two, Amtrak will have more diners than it currently has routes to use them on.


Will Albany's late delivery affect the future delivery schedule of the bag-dorms and sleepers?


----------



## west point

It may be that bag dorms can operate on some winter routes freeing up sleepers then for additional maintenance.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

west point said:


> It may be that bag dorms can operate on some winter routes freeing up sleepers then for additional maintenance.


Only on forums like this do you ever hear fare paying passengers riding in the Bag Dorms. Never from Amtrak. Still waiting to hear the assignment for these cars. Ten is a intriguing number.


----------



## A Voice

StriderGDM said:


> There are apparently some routes where a baggage car is overkill, such as LSL where you probably don't need TWO full baggage cars. So having a baggage/dorm gets you a baggage car for the NYP-ALB leg and frees up sleeper space.


The number of full baggage cars was increased due to the fact that while underutilized most of the time, on certain routes (Florida) during busy periods a baggage-dormitory would be insufficient.



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> It may be that bag dorms can operate on some winter routes freeing up sleepers then for additional maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> Only on forums like this do you ever hear fare paying passengers riding in the Bag Dorms. Never from Amtrak. Still waiting to hear the assignment for these cars. Ten is a intriguing number.
Click to expand...

_Lake Shore Limited_ and _Cardinal_ will be the assignments for the baggage-dorms, so far as I know.


----------



## west point

The point was bag dorms on some low travel times routes could handle the baggage requirements. Crew would still use it. That might mean one less sleeper normally needed for crew for that train thus freeing up sleeper for more PM.

A wild idea. If the Atlanta station mess can be resolved to allow cut off cars. Run the Crescent this way. Locos, bag dorm, sleeper, lounge, diner, coaches, sleepers, regular baggage car. Cut off number of coaches not needed, rear sleepers, & regular baggage at Atlanta. Only one sleeper ever needed south of ATL. Then add cars on train 20 that night. Bag dorm ATL <> NOL should be all of the needed baggage space. This has the added advantage of only loading 19's bag dorm at a ATL and unloading rear regular baggage. Bag dorm could be added at WASH along with the locos for only baggage south of ATL with any NYPS - WASH baggage transferred to bag dorm at WASH. Would then only require 3 bag dorms for rotation. Probably will not happen.


----------



## neroden

If the Atlanta station mess is ever resolved, we'll know that hell has frozen over. Or, to be more specific, we'll be in a new golden age of American passenger rail, with high-speed rail routes being built simultaneously all over the country, like in China.

Sorry to get political, but this is my analysis:

Currently, the Georgia state government is essentially hostile to providing any money to solve any passenger rail problems, and this is an *ideological* view which isn't going to change as long as the Republicans are in power in Georgia and the Republican party remains the coalition which it currently is. The city and county governments in Atlanta, although Democratic aren't even interested in supporting intercity passenger rail. Having the city attitude shift enough to fund it would be a massive demographic shift in itself, one equivalent to the shift which has happened in the three major North Carolina metro areas over the past 40 years (which caused those cities, and eventually the state to start supporting intercity passenger rail.)

That demographic shift in North Carolina also turned NC from a "red state" into a state which consistently votes for Democrats, and where Republicans have kept power primarily by gerrymandering, voter suppression, and changing the rules repeatedly (the shenanigans they've gone to in NC specifically are well-documented and can be googled, I won't go into them here). If this same demographic shift happens in Georgia, it will imply that the same sort of shift is even further along in North Carolina (making it "solidly blue"), and that a similar shift has happened in Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, etc. (all of which are less hostile to passenger rail to start with), and so on.

Resolving the Atlanta station mess requires an enormous shift in the political alignments in this country. A shift so large, that by the time it has happened, support for passenger rail in the states which currently support it will be at massively high levels, and there will be enough support to have a large national expansion program.

Who knows -- maybe this is on the verge of happening. What with the mayor of Nashville proposing an excellent citywide light rail system, maybe this massive shift is on the verge of happening.

But anyway, before the Atlanta station mess is fixed, we're going to see a *lot* of progress made on rail in a *lot* of places which are more positive towards rail to start with. Because for the politics to move to fix the Atlanta situation, it will first have to move enough to get more rail in a lot of other places (the Gulf Coast, Nashville, etc.)


----------



## west point

Neroden: Good analysis. However there may be some movement in the Ga legislature now in session. Have to wait 3 or 4 weeks to know for sure. Your analysis still avoids the additional equipment needed which is a frustration to all of us !


----------



## me_little_me

lordsigma said:


> Other than reinstating the diner on the Lake Shore Limited, is there a consensus on whats going to be done with the remaining Diners? Still 7 left to be delivered.


Huh? Like we get a vote? Will the "consensus" mean anything?

My vote is to put them as empty buffers in the front of Amtrak's engines to protect the diminishing supply of engines.


----------



## west point

Two more V-1 sleepers on 91 back to beech or MIA for repair. At least no V-2 diner on 91.or


----------



## GBNorman

lordsigma said:


> Other than reinstating the diner on the Lake Shore Limited, is there a consensus on whats going to be done with the remaining Diners? Still 7 left to be delivered.


Mr. Sigma, Mr. Neroden reports that #16-17, Madison and Montgomery, are en-route. There are four, namely 00,09,10,11, that were "run-around" during the numerical delivery process and for reasons not fully explained. Therefore in addition to the seven, #18-24 incl, numerically remaining, there are the four noted, or a total of eleven.

By the time "Mad and Monty" are accepted, resulting in fourteen (plus 8400) on the property and available, that should be sufficient to equip 48-49, Lake Shore Ltd, which Amtrak is as good as on record they will do.

The "big question" remaining will be if 50-51, Cardinal (two cars), and 91-92, Silver Star (four cars), will be re-equipped.


----------



## Steve4031

The lounge car in the silver star derailment was totalled. Is there a shortage of these type of cars now? If so that could be a factor in putting full service diners back on the star.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PRR 60

Steve4031 said:


> The lounge car in the silver star derailment was totalled. Is there a shortage of these type of cars now? If so that could be a factor in putting full service diners back on the star.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


There were 25 active Amfleet II lounges prior to the wreck. The 24 remaining should be able to cover the lounge requirements of single-lever long distance trains.


----------



## jis

This is the first loss of an Amfleet II Lounge. 25 were produced. 24 remain in service.

An Amfleet II Coach is also most likely a writeoff given the compression dent that is clearly visible in the first Coach of the train.


----------



## west point

An AM-1 and AM-2 will become parts source for rest of fleet ? The 47 ? probably very few parts ?


----------



## jis

west point said:


> An AM-1 and AM-2 will become parts source for rest of fleet ? The 47 ? probably very few parts ?


Where did you find the AM-1 in all of this?


----------



## Ryan

Looks like he wandered into the wrong thread.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

jis said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> An AM-1 and AM-2 will become parts source for rest of fleet ? The 47 ? probably very few parts ?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you find the AM-1 in all of this?
Click to expand...

He is probably referring to the coach and cafe.


----------



## Ryan

His point is that there are no Viewliner Coaches or Cafes.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato

On Facebook, amidst the countless "hey, here's a photo/video of engine 47" posts was a video of, apparently, the Meteor, with what appeared to be a bag-dorm. How long ago was that one delivered? It looked to be behind the full baggage car, so possibly deadheading rather than in service.


----------



## jis

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> An AM-1 and AM-2 will become parts source for rest of fleet ? The 47 ? probably very few parts ?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you find the AM-1 in all of this?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He is probably referring to the coach and cafe.
Click to expand...

There is no Amfleet I car in that consist of 91, unless someone is hallucinating. [emoji57]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## west point

My mistake typo !


----------



## cpotisch

Hotblack Desiato said:


> On Facebook, amidst the countless "hey, here's a photo/video of engine 47" posts was a video of, apparently, the Meteor, with what appeared to be a bag-dorm. How long ago was that one delivered? It looked to be behind the full baggage car, so possibly deadheading rather than in service.


Can you post the link to that? We can't really give answers without knowing more.


----------



## jis

Hotblack Desiato said:


> On Facebook, amidst the countless "hey, here's a photo/video of engine 47" posts was a video of, apparently, the Meteor, with what appeared to be a bag-dorm. How long ago was that one delivered? It looked to be behind the full baggage car, so possibly deadheading rather than in service.


It was not delivered. It was out for a brief test run. It is back at CAF and has been for many months.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato

Upon further review, it appears to have been a deadheading diner. I mistook the blank wall along the kitchen area as a baggage section. The video itself was too blurry to see the car number/name.


----------



## TommyBNSF

I think this is the train you're referring to. It was the Indianapolis 8400.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Hotblack Desiato said:
> 
> 
> 
> On Facebook, amidst the countless "hey, here's a photo/video of engine 47" posts was a video of, apparently, the Meteor, with what appeared to be a bag-dorm. How long ago was that one delivered? It looked to be behind the full baggage car, so possibly deadheading rather than in service.
> 
> 
> 
> It was not delivered. It was out for a brief test run. It is back at CAF and has been for many months.
Click to expand...

Months??? The last Bag Dorm returned to CAF in April, 2016!!

Time flies when you're not getting what you want!


----------



## cpotisch

TommyBNSF said:


> I think this is the train you're referring to. It was the Indianapolis 8400.



The vid you found shows the right side of the car, which has windows the whole way. It's also not very blurry, and is easy to read the car number and name.


----------



## jis

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hotblack Desiato said:
> 
> 
> 
> On Facebook, amidst the countless "hey, here's a photo/video of engine 47" posts was a video of, apparently, the Meteor, with what appeared to be a bag-dorm. How long ago was that one delivered? It looked to be behind the full baggage car, so possibly deadheading rather than in service.
> 
> 
> 
> It was not delivered. It was out for a brief test run. It is back at CAF and has been for many months.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Months??? The last Bag Dorm returned to CAF in April, 2016!!
> 
> Time flies when you're not getting what you want!
Click to expand...

Heh heh! Indeed! 22 months is still months, or two months short of two years, Whichever way you look at it, a looong time, well unless you are studying plate tectonics or paleontology I suppose.


----------



## StriderGDM

Hey, babies are considered X months old up to about 3 years. so we're good.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato

Wrong video, right train.


----------



## cpotisch

At this point, do y’all think there is any actual chance the LSL gets a diner by Feb. 21?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> At this point, do y’all think there is any actual chance the LSL gets a diner by Feb. 21?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Are you going to change your travel plans if the answer is no?


----------



## JoeBas

cpotisch said:


> At this point, do y’all think there is any actual chance the LSL gets a diner by Feb. 21?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


So you’re _saying there’s a chance!!!_


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cpotisch said:


> At this point, do yall think there is any actual chance the LSL gets a diner by Feb. 21?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


No chance by Feb 21st.

Clues to when it would start. A deadhead move of a dinner to Chicago for the shop to get uptrained on the equipment. Sure they have been working on baggage cars for a bit. But rumor has it, the dinners have stuff inside of it that might need to be serviced by Chicago.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, do y’all think there is any actual chance the LSL gets a diner by Feb. 21?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> Are you going to change your travel plans if the answer is no?
Click to expand...

Nope, but I'm gonna cry non-stop for 14 days.


----------



## Ryan

That'll be productive and not at all annoying.


----------



## Lonestar648

Best to plan not to have the VL Diner then be surprised when one appears.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> That'll be productive and not at all annoying.


I think you know I was joking. I asked for a final sort of verdict on what to expect in two weeks, I got the answer and I shall now gladly shut up.


----------



## Palmetto

Palmetto said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, do yall think there is any actual chance the LSL gets a diner by Feb. 21?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> No chance by Feb 21st.
> 
> Clues to when it would start. A deadhead move of a dinner to Chicago for the shop to get uptrained on the equipment. Sure they have been working on baggage cars for a bit. But rumor has it, the dinners have stuff inside of it that might need to be serviced by Chicago.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I sure hope not, given the crappy work that Chicago has been doing. And one would think that if the rumor were true, then all diners will have to go to Chicago at some point for service. I can't imagine anything that Chicago can do that Hialeah cannot.


----------



## Steve4031

Iirc Hialeah does the major work. Chicago would have to at least perform the maintainance that is required between trips. That's why some training would be needed.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PRR 60

Palmetto said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> At this point, do yall think there is any actual chance the LSL gets a diner by Feb. 21?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> 
> 
> No chance by Feb 21st.
> 
> Clues to when it would start. A deadhead move of a dinner to Chicago for the shop to get uptrained on the equipment. Sure they have been working on baggage cars for a bit. But rumor has it, the dinners have stuff inside of it that might need to be serviced by Chicago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I sure hope not, given the crappy work that Chicago has been doing. And one would think that if the rumor were true, then all diners will have to go to Chicago at some point for service. I can't imagine anything that Chicago can do that Hialeah cannot.
Click to expand...

 It's not about making Chicago a second maintenance base for the Viewliners, but to provide them the training and parts needed to fix something that needs to be fixed in order to get a car back in service. If the Lake Shore arrives in Chicago with a diner that has HVAC issues, or a power problem, or whatever, they either fix it in Chicago or the return train does without a working diner.


----------



## tommylicious

It's been a while since a VLII diner has been released. Any idea what's up?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> It's been a while since a VLII diner has been released. Any idea what's up?


It hasn't even been a month since the last two left CAF on 1/16/18.


----------



## Palmland

I was surprised to see Annapolis -8400 deadheading on 98-09 at Jacksonville (behind the baggage car). Lights were on but it was unoccupied. Is this in regular service now - perhaps headed to the Crescent?


----------



## jis

Palmland said:


> I was surprised to see Annapolis -8400 deadheading on 98-09 at Jacksonville (behind the baggage car). Lights were on but it was unoccupied. Is this in regular service now - perhaps headed to the Crescent?


So, it was either 8400 - Indianapolis or 68001 - Annapolis.

Which one did you see?


----------



## cpotisch

Palmland said:


> I was surprised to see Annapolis -8400 deadheading on 98-09 at Jacksonville (behind the baggage car). Lights were on but it was unoccupied. Is this in regular service now - perhaps headed to the Crescent?


Both had entered revenue service a long time ago. 8400 isn't currently in service, however, so that's probably what you saw.


----------



## cpotisch

Ngotwalt said:


> Mady and Monty have left the building.
> 
> Nick


Coming up on the one month anniversary of the release of Madison/Montgomery from CAF. We can probably expect them out of Hialeah in a few days.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mady and Monty have left the building.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Coming up on the one month anniversary of the release of Madison/Montgomery from CAF. We can probably expect them out of Hialeah in a few days.
Click to expand...


Actually, Madison has been released and ready to go since the 9th. It just doesn't really have anywhere to go so it is protecting in HIA.


----------



## cpotisch

Oh, wow! I take it Monty is still in the works, though?


----------



## Acela150

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mady and Monty have left the building.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Coming up on the one month anniversary of the release of Madison/Montgomery from CAF. We can probably expect them out of Hialeah in a few days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, Madison has been released and ready to go since the 9th. It just doesn't really have anywhere to go so it is protecting in HIA.
Click to expand...

TR, Is it safe to say that Amtrak is releasing the diners in to protect service first and then placed on trains?


----------



## cpotisch

Acela150 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mady and Monty have left the building.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Coming up on the one month anniversary of the release of Madison/Montgomery from CAF. We can probably expect them out of Hialeah in a few days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, Madison has been released and ready to go since the 9th. It just doesn't really have anywhere to go so it is protecting in HIA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TR, Is it safe to say that Amtrak is releasing the diners in to protect service first and then placed on trains?
Click to expand...

Obviously I'm not Thirdrail, but it seems that that's been the case for all the recent diners. But again, I'm most definitely not TR7.


----------



## Lonestar648

Is Amtrak pooling a group plus protection units before say adding them to the LSL? I am not sure how many "extra" Diners are in the system ready to be used.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> Is Amtrak pooling a group plus protection units before say adding them to the LSL? I am not sure how many "extra" Diners are in the system ready to be used.


Including 8400, there are currently 14 Viewliner Diners. When Montgomery is done, it'll be 15. Eight are currently in use, so there are currently six protects.


----------



## Lonestar648

With 6 protects, still not quite enough to outfit the LSL and have its protects.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato

Lonestar648 said:


> With 6 protects, still not quite enough to outfit the LSL and have its protects.


Should be plenty. In theory, you shouldn’t need more than two or three for a fleet of that size. LSL requires three train sets, so that would still leave three spares.

Of course, while equipment availability may have been the reason the LSL lost its diner most recently, absent a recent announcement from Amtrak, I’m not convinced equipment availability is what’s holding back restoration of same.


----------



## lordsigma

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With 6 protects, still not quite enough to outfit the LSL and have its protects.
> 
> 
> 
> Should be plenty. In theory, you shouldn’t need more than two or three for a fleet of that size. LSL requires three train sets, so that would still leave three spares.
> 
> Of course, while equipment availability may have been the reason the LSL lost its diner most recently, absent a recent announcement from Amtrak, I’m not convinced equipment availability is what’s holding back restoration of same.
Click to expand...

Though If the reason is they have changed their minds and want to keep the current "diner-lite" setup, technically there is nothing forcing them to restore a full menu even with the Viewliner diners. I could see them putting the new cars on the LSL and Cardinal but keeping the same current menu. One way Amtrak could alter its diner operations is to use a diner-lite style menu at off peak times of the year and then offer a fuller menu at peak times that takes full advantage of the car's facilities. One could argue it makes sense for them to still replace the old rolling stock with the new Viewliner cars on those trains even if they don't want to resume a full Diner menu. This is of course just speculation, but they aren't necessarily forced to expand the menu immediately just by using the physical car on the train.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato

It’s been a while since I’ve been on either train (Cardina or LSL). Does the diner lite Amfleet car on those trains also serve as the cafe car, or is a separate car used? If it’s a separate car, then it could probably be replaced by a Viewliner, but as I recall, the current Viewliner configuration doesn’t really lend itself very well to being used as a cafe car because of the lack of a good counter space for passengers to walk up and order stuff.


----------



## PVD

Can't speak for the Card, but on LSL, the Cafe Car is a split, with one end being 2-1 BC seating running from BOS to Chicago. The diner, presently the DL, originates in NY.


----------



## neroden

If they don't restore dining car service on the LSL, they are idiots of the first order.

However... remember the 20% shop count rule of thumb. Due to the required calendar-based inspections, even the protect cars need shop time.  Although probably not the full 20%.

14 in service including #8400 + Montgomery = 15. Subtract shop count of 20%, you get 12. 8 for Crescent and Meteor service. For protection, 1 in Hileah, 1 in New Orleans, 2 in New York City. (I know Amtrak wanted two protects at NYC for a long time.)

If Amtrak wants (as it clearly does) to dispose of the Heritage cars immediately, dispose of all their spare parts, throw out their manuals,... and *never* have to substitute an Amfleet II cafe on the Crescent or Meteor... this is the minimum to be completely safe.

The LSL would require 3 additional cars, plus a protect at Chicago, plus shop count time for those, which really means 5 more cars. I am probably somewhat overestimating the shop counts, but I'd still guess we need at least two more cars from CAF after Montgomery before Amtrak will feel that they have enough dining cars, and likely 4 more.


----------



## Ngotwalt

Also, I think the 8400 is out of service.

Nick


----------



## StriderGDM

I can wait for a diner on the LSL until as neroden suggests, they can completely eliminate ALL heritage diners. Let's make life easier.


----------



## Thirdrail7




----------



## Ryan

Next week?


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


>


Yeeeesssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Thirdrail7

Acela150 said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ngotwalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mady and Monty have left the building.
> 
> Nick
> 
> 
> 
> Coming up on the one month anniversary of the release of Madison/Montgomery from CAF. We can probably expect them out of Hialeah in a few days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, Madison has been released and ready to go since the 9th. It just doesn't really have anywhere to go so it is protecting in HIA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TR, Is it safe to say that Amtrak is releasing the diners in to protect service first and then placed on trains?
Click to expand...

Not really. They just don't have anywhere to go if the sets are made up and deployed. It the one piece of equipment that is currently at a surplus.



Ngotwalt said:


> Also, I think the 8400 is out of service.
> 
> Nick


It hasn't really been o/o/s for any prolonged period since its pm. It may skip a trip or two, but it is basically available. It's currently in the Crescent cycle.



Ryan said:


> Next week?


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Translation: 27 February 2018


----------



## Ryan

Thank you, Captain Obvious.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Ryan said:


> Thank you, Captain Obvious.


Rough night Ryan?


----------



## cpotisch

What is the red dude driving over the number 58 referencing?


----------



## Ziv

I have to admit that the number 58 getting rammed by what looks like a cub scout on a trike makes no sense to me. So I guess I can't even aspire to being "Captain Obvious".


----------



## stappend

If you go back through the 1000 pages of TR's hints it makes sense, the 57th day of the year or 2/27/18


----------



## Ziv

Cool. Thanks for the heads up! I understood most of the hints over the past couple months, but that one flew right over my head. I thought it was May 8th at first, then I was fixated on the 3 wheels of the trike for a while, thinking it was 583. Regardless of my less than stellar discernment, it is good news to have 2 more diners 'en route', so to speak.



stappend said:


> If you go back through the 1000 pages of TR's hints it makes sense, the 57th day of the year or 2/27/18


----------



## Steve4031

Ziv said:


> Cool. Thanks for the heads up! I understood most of the hints over the past couple months, but that one flew right over my head. I thought it was May 8th at first, then I was fixated on the 3 wheels of the trike for a while, thinking it was 583. Regardless of my less than stellar discernment, it is good news to have 2 more diners 'en route', so to speak.
> 
> 
> stappend said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you go back through the 1000 pages of TR's hints it makes sense, the 57th day of the year or 2/27/18
> 
> 
> 
> [/quot
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...


----------



## jis

stappend said:


> If you go back through the 1000 pages of TR's hints it makes sense, the 57th day of the year or 2/27/18


2/27 would be 58th day unless someone took away one day from January or something like that


----------



## niemi24s

The Julian calendar does have its advantages in certain applications.


----------



## Ryan

Apparently Julian dates are not as well known as I thought.

For anyone else still confused, Montpelier and Nashville are going to be the next two Diners delivered.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> For anyone else still confused, Montpelier and Nashville are going to be the next two Diners delivered.


With all do respect, I think we all figured that much.

But thanks, Captain Obvious!


----------



## JRR

Way beyond me!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## west point

Julian calendar dates are used in many computer programs. Then a sub routine can translate to / from standard dates. Makes it much easier to deal with the Feb 29th leap years.


----------



## cpotisch

I think it was the ‘little red dude‘ on the trike that threw some of us off. A bit of a red herring.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Lonestar648

Seems like we are treading water waiting for the next two diners to be released.


----------



## cpotisch

If Amtrak wanted to, at this point they could absolutely return the diner to the Lake Shore. Including 8400 and Monty, there are currently seven ViewDiner protects. With the LSL equipped, there would still be four. That’s a 36% margin - almost twice the standard of the past couple years. They could at minimum (as has been mentioned before) add V-IIs and keep the current menu. It would require very minimal crew training/prep, and would provide vastly better ambiance.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## neroden

Amtrak was very unhappy with the low number of protects in the past couple of years. I do have to remind everyone of shop count. There are 16 ViewDiners in service, but due to shop counts (required inspections etc) that's really 13. 8 in use now, 3 on the LSL means 2 *reliable* protects.

Now, when they have Montpelier and Nashville in service they really will have no excuse and they should put the V-IIs on the LSL. And they absolutely need to restore the cooked-breakfast menu, which is much more attractive and just as cheap as the current yucky breakfast menu. (Breakfast is the most important meal on the LSL.)


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Amtrak was very unhappy with the low number of protects in the past couple of years. I do have to remind everyone of shop count. There are 16 ViewDiners in service, but due to shop counts (required inspections etc) that's really 13. 8 in use now, 3 on the LSL means 2 *reliable* protects.
> 
> Now, when they have Montpelier and Nashville in service they really will have no excuse and they should put the V-IIs on the LSL. And they absolutely need to restore the cooked-breakfast menu, which is much more attractive and just as cheap as the current yucky breakfast menu. (Breakfast is the most important meal on the LSL.)


There are 15 ViewDiners, right? 68001, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 8400.

Do they really need to take three cars out of service for inspection at a time?


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak was very unhappy with the low number of protects in the past couple of years. I do have to remind everyone of shop count. There are 16 ViewDiners in service, but due to shop counts (required inspections etc) that's really 13. 8 in use now, 3 on the LSL means 2 *reliable* protects.
> 
> Now, when they have Montpelier and Nashville in service they really will have no excuse and they should put the V-IIs on the LSL. And they absolutely need to restore the cooked-breakfast menu, which is much more attractive and just as cheap as the current yucky breakfast menu. (Breakfast is the most important meal on the LSL.)
> 
> 
> 
> There are 15 ViewDiners, right? 68001, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 8400.
> 
> Do they really need to take three cars out of service for inspection at a time?
Click to expand...


They are typically delivered in batches of two. There are various inspections and pm that occur every 92 days. Unless you can get ahead of it, you'll usually have 2 out very close to each other....and that assumes there are no shoppers, nothing gets damaged (debris strikes) and there aren't field mods still occurring with some of the cars....and I wouldn't assume that.

While none of the time consuming, major brake inspections and tests (unless something goes majorly wrong) will occur in the near future, the time it takes to complete the car is based upon how much manpower is available to commit to the operation.

So, I can see where 4 cars will be o/o/s in the near future if things line up just right.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amtrak was very unhappy with the low number of protects in the past couple of years. I do have to remind everyone of shop count. There are 16 ViewDiners in service, but due to shop counts (required inspections etc) that's really 13. 8 in use now, 3 on the LSL means 2 *reliable* protects.
> 
> Now, when they have Montpelier and Nashville in service they really will have no excuse and they should put the V-IIs on the LSL. And they absolutely need to restore the cooked-breakfast menu, which is much more attractive and just as cheap as the current yucky breakfast menu. (Breakfast is the most important meal on the LSL.)
> 
> 
> 
> There are 15 ViewDiners, right? 68001, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 8400.
> Do they really need to take three cars out of service for inspection at a time?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are typically delivered in batches of two. There are various inspections and pm that occur every 92 days. Unless you can get ahead of it, you'll usually have 2 out very close to each other....and that assumes there are no shoppers, nothing gets damaged (debris strikes) and there aren't field mods still occurring with some of the cars....and I wouldn't assume that.
> 
> While none of the time consuming, major brake inspections and tests (unless something goes majorly wrong) will occur in the near future, the time it takes to complete the car is based upon how much manpower is available to commit to the operation.
> 
> So, I can see where 4 cars will be o/o/s in the near future if things line up just right.
Click to expand...

I see... [emoji20]


----------



## Dutchrailnut

Locomotives get inspected every 92 days , with the cars its one year intervals .


----------



## tommylicious

When's the last time there was a delivery? It's been a while, no?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

jan 16.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

tommylicious said:


> When's the last time there was a delivery? It's been a while, no?


It's only been about a month. Read some of the last two pages of this thread and you'll see the next 2 cars are ready to be delivered.


----------



## cpotisch

Dutchrailnut said:


> jan 16.


Yep, and with Montpelier/Nashville due 2/27, there will have been a five week gap. Well within the normal range.


----------



## PRR 60

Discussion specific to the Lake Shore Limited Diner Lite experience has been moved to a new topic: Lake Shore Limited Diner Lite Discussion and Review

We will _try _to keep this topic related to discussion of the production and delivery of the new cars. That discussion can include speculation concerning the assignment of new diners to the Lake Shore Limited and restoration of full diner service, but specific reviews of the existing Diner Lite service and food quality should be a separate topic.


----------



## cpotisch

Does it seem like Amtrak will use 8400 anymore if they can help it? If memory serves, hasn't it been out of service for a while, with Amtrak favoring the V-II diners?


----------



## Thirdrail7

I'm sure they'll find a use for the 8400. They can always use it as a diner lite or lounge.


----------



## KnightRail

cpotisch said:


> Does it seem like Amtrak will use 8400 anymore if they can help it? If memory serves, hasn't it been out of service for a while, with Amtrak favoring the V-II diners?


Being used ten days ago on the Crescent certainly isnt out of service, nor is that a while.


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does it seem like Amtrak will use 8400 anymore if they can help it? If memory serves, hasn't it been out of service for a while, with Amtrak favoring the V-II diners?
> 
> 
> 
> Being used ten days ago on the Crescent certainly isnt out of service, nor is that a while.
Click to expand...

I said 'if memory serves'. I guess it doesn't serve that well.


----------



## Northeastern292

By what I saw today on Facebook, a P42, Amfleet and a GP38H-3 are in Elmira. New cars are on their way.


----------



## StriderGDM

BTW, just had 68013 Hartford on the Crescent 20(25). And I believe on 19(22) was 68006 Charleston.


----------



## cpotisch

StriderGDM said:


> BTW, just had 68013 Hartford on the Crescent 20(25). And I believe on 19(22) was 68006 Charleston.


They're really being shuffled around. Both of those have been on the Meteor within the past six weeks.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, just had 68013 Hartford on the Crescent 20(25). And I believe on 19(22) was 68006 Charleston.
> 
> 
> 
> They're really being shuffled around. Both of those have been on the Meteor within the past six weeks.
Click to expand...

As new ones come on line they spend several weeks on 97/98 in case they need to go back to Hialeah or CAF. 

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## west point

Good point. By keeping the new ones on 97/98 they can be pulled out of service quickly and have a proven earlier car inserted. That may be the reason that we are not seeing the earlier ones on trains as much. Earlier units can become much needed spares until the later ones get all the bugs out.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StriderGDM said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, just had 68013 Hartford on the Crescent 20(25). And I believe on 19(22) was 68006 Charleston.
> 
> 
> 
> They're really being shuffled around. Both of those have been on the Meteor within the past six weeks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As new ones come on line they spend several weeks on 97/98 in case they need to go back to Hialeah or CAF.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

I get that, but it's seems to me like the diners are being shuffled around more than the rate of new cars entering service. Are there any other additional reasons for moving the cars around?


----------



## jis

Are the Diners getting shuffled around any more than say the Sleepers or Coaches? Or is it just they we are completely focused on the Diners and therefore are noticing their shuffling more intensely? I don't know. Just wondering aloud.


----------



## StriderGDM

Almost certainly the latter. Folks, it's pretty common for entire trainsets to be swapped out for other service. There's really nothing all that magical, other than the first few trips being on the Meteor for the reason mentioned above.


----------



## cpotisch

StriderGDM said:


> Almost certainly the latter. Folks, it's pretty common for entire trainsets to be swapped out for other service. There's really nothing all that magical, other than the first few trips being on the Meteor for the reason mentioned above.


I never said it was magical. I was just wondering about the reasons.


----------



## cpotisch

So it's February 28, were Montpelier and Nashville delivered yet?


----------



## Dutchrailnut

they were picked up yesterday at CAF .

Train consist 
AMTK 100 P42 
AMTK 82686 Coach 
AMTK 68019 NASHVILLE Diner 
AMTK 68018 MONTPELIER Diner 
AMTK 520 GP38-3


----------



## cpotisch

Dutchrailnut said:


> they were picked up yesterday at CAF .
> 
> Train consist
> 
> AMTK 100 P42
> 
> AMTK 82686 Coach
> 
> AMTK 68019 NASHVILLE Diner
> 
> AMTK 68018 MONTPELIER Diner
> 
> AMTK 520 GP38-3


Yay! So they'll most likely be ready for service by April!


----------



## jis

Expect restoration of Diner Service on the LSL in the May timeframe I should imagine.


----------



## Lonestar648

V2 Diners on the LSL would be great for my trip to Albany.in June.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Expect restoration of Diner Service on the LSL in the May timeframe I should imagine.


I'm thinking more mid-April at the moment. Montpelier and Nashville will be ready for service by the end of March. That will bring the VL Diner count to 17. That will unquestionably be sufficient equipment-wise. Then I'm expecting a couple weeks after that the diner is back on. Call me an optimist, but that's my best guess.


----------



## stappend

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Expect restoration of Diner Service on the LSL in the May timeframe I should imagine.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking more mid-April at the moment. Montpelier and Nashville will be ready for service by the end of March. That will bring the VL Diner count to 17. That will unquestionably be sufficient equipment-wise. Then I'm expecting a couple weeks after that the diner is back on. Call me an optimist, but that's my best guess.
Click to expand...

You're using your desire for the LSL to get its diner back to guide your logic. We have no idea what Amtrak management is using for their decision making process, they could decide to make no change, or put the diner on the Star or any number of changes that are not expected.


----------



## jis

I was merely guessing that they will do it with the time table change for the Summer or some such. I don;t think they will do it the day after they have sufficient number of Diners.


----------



## cpotisch

stappend said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Expect restoration of Diner Service on the LSL in the May timeframe I should imagine.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking more mid-April at the moment. Montpelier and Nashville will be ready for service by the end of March. That will bring the VL Diner count to 17. That will unquestionably be sufficient equipment-wise. Then I'm expecting a couple weeks after that the diner is back on. Call me an optimist, but that's my best guess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're using your desire for the LSL to get its diner back to guide your logic. We have no idea what Amtrak management is using for their decision making process, they could decide to make no change, or put the diner on the Star or any number of changes that are not expected.
Click to expand...

The diner on the LSL is considered to be financially viable. The LSL had a very high coach passenger diner-utilization rate, meaning that a surprisingly large number of coach pax use the diner on that train.

There are 11 consists between the Crescent, Meteor, and LSL so six protects would be plenty.

And there is no chance that the Star would get a dining car before the LSL. The Lake Shore lost the dining car due to Heritage diner shortages. The Star lost its dining car to cut costs. Because the Silver Star doesn't have a diner, the train now only needs one locomotive, and they ditched ALL the diner staff. The LSL diner-lite still operates with three staff (so that's still three salaries to pay) and it didn't allow for fewer locomotives either. So if the Silver Star were to get its dining car back, it would have no relation to the new equipment.


----------



## Lonestar648

For the Star to get a Diner back, Amtrak would need to address a change in pricing for the Sleeper Accommodations unless the Star would continue as a different operation with everyone paying for their meals..


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> So if the Silver Star were to get its dining car back, it would have no relation to the new equipment.


Well, absent the new Diners there is no chance of the Star getting Diner. So in that sense the Star getting Diner is closely related to the new equipment. It is also true that the availability of new equipment does not imply that the Star will get Diner restored.


----------



## stappend

The point I was striving to make is its not a numbers game for the LSL or any other train. There are other factors that we are not privy to in the decision. For all we know Amtrak could decide to park them someplace and rent them out to Star Bucks.


----------



## PRR 60

Before the Lake Shore gets a new diner, you will likely see a unit sent to Chicago for maintenance training. It might take a week or two to get through all the crews and shifts. Parts for emergent repairs will have to be stocked there as well. Once there is a report of a Viewliner II diner sitting in the yard in Chicago, the countdown clock will start ticking.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> And there is no chance that the Star would get a dining car before the LSL. The Lake Shore lost the dining car due to Heritage diner shortages. The Star lost its dining car to cut costs. Because the Silver Star doesn't have a diner, the train now only needs one locomotive, and they ditched ALL the diner staff. The LSL diner-lite still operates with three staff (so that's still three salaries to pay) and it didn't allow for fewer locomotives either. So if the Silver Star were to get its dining car back, it would have no relation to the new equipment.


You make a lot of bold declarative statements referencing the reasoning behind internal Amtrak decision making and Amtrak staffing levels as if they are the Gospel truth. Truth is, we know far less than you think we do, and that extends forward into the future. 
There is no way that you can make the declarative statement about what train is getting a dining car before another, and there is no way of knowing what kind of service will be provided when a ViewDiner is inserted into the consist.


----------



## jis

stappend said:


> The point I was striving to make is its not a numbers game for the LSL or any other train. There are other factors that we are not privy to in the decision. For all we know Amtrak could decide to park them someplace and rent them out to Star Bucks.


That is very true.

I would go for Denny's though for the raw ambiance




With appropriate additional wall decor it could be adapted for Cracker barrel too I suppose


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> stappend said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point I was striving to make is its not a numbers game for the LSL or any other train. There are other factors that we are not privy to in the decision. For all we know Amtrak could decide to park them someplace and rent them out to Star Bucks.
> 
> 
> 
> That is very true.
> I would go for Denny's though for the raw ambiance
> 
> 
> 
> With appropriate additional wall decor it could be adapted for Cracker barrel too I suppose
Click to expand...

It has to be Waffle House! Everyone on earth would want to eat in a V-II Waffle House diner! [emoji2]
EDIT: Sorry, everyone in the galaxy.


----------



## cpotisch

stappend said:


> The point I was striving to make is its not a numbers game for the LSL or any other train. There are other factors that we are not privy to in the decision. For all we know Amtrak could decide to park them someplace and rent them out to Star Bucks.


To be clear, that much I 100% agree with.


----------



## west point

Some study by several persons seems to indicate Amtrak is operating the newest delivered V-2s whenever possible ? Then when one of them develops a bug it is pulled from service for work with a first delivered dinning car substituted ? That way all the bugs can be worked out before adding cars to LSL and then whatever trains next ? ? ?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Screenshot from a video I just took as 97 approached WIL

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> IMG_1519857078.533987.jpg
> 
> Screenshot from a video I just took as 97 approached WIL
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Do you recall which diner was operating?


----------



## me_little_me

stappend said:


> The point I was striving to make is its not a numbers game for the LSL or any other train. There are other factors that we are not privy to in the decision. For all we know Amtrak could decide to park them someplace and rent them out to Star Bucks.


Who will, in turn, start selling capa-chapa-mocha-mara-choco-chino coffee drinks on Amtrak, selling them at a huge profit with lines so long they stretch into the baggage car. They will do so well, Amtrak management will raise the price of ordinary coffee in its diners and start charging sleeping car passengers for coffee.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

cpotisch said:


> And there is no chance that the Star would get a dining car before the LSL. The Lake Shore lost the dining car due to Heritage diner shortages. The Star lost its dining car to cut costs. Because the Silver Star doesn't have a diner, the train now only needs one locomotive, and they ditched ALL the diner staff.


Sorry dont think the Star dinning staff was cut, I recall they are still working, but on a longer schedule. In example ever 9th day compares to ever 7th day. Random numbers used for explanations. Now it been a few years, one think simple turnovers, and retirement would downsize the crew base. Be interesting if the Unions would fight to stop the crew from going back to the normal work schedule?


----------



## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> And there is no chance that the Star would get a dining car before the LSL. The Lake Shore lost the dining car due to Heritage diner shortages. The Star lost its dining car to cut costs. Because the Silver Star doesn't have a diner, the train now only needs one locomotive, and they ditched ALL the diner staff.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry dont think the Star dinning staff was cut, I recall they are still working, but on a longer schedule. In example ever 9th day compares to ever 7th day. Random numbers used for explanations. Now it been a few years, one think simple turnovers, and retirement would downsize the crew base. Be interesting if the Unions would fight to stop the crew from going back to the normal work schedule?
Click to expand...

What do you mean? The Silver Star doesn’t have a dining car, so it obviously doesn’t have dining car staff. Sorry if I’m misunderstanding your post.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> And there is no chance that the Star would get a dining car before the LSL. The Lake Shore lost the dining car due to Heritage diner shortages. The Star lost its dining car to cut costs. Because the Silver Star doesn't have a diner, the train now only needs one locomotive, and they ditched ALL the diner staff.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry dont think the Star dinning staff was cut, I recall they are still working, but on a longer schedule. In example ever 9th day compares to ever 7th day. Random numbers used for explanations. Now it been a few years, one think simple turnovers, and retirement would downsize the crew base. Be interesting if the Unions would fight to stop the crew from going back to the normal work schedule?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you mean? The Silver Star doesn’t have a dining car, so it obviously doesn’t have dining car staff. Sorry if I’m misunderstanding your post.
Click to expand...

They're probably working other trains, like the Meteor. Or they working in other capacities on the Star.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> And there is no chance that the Star would get a dining car before the LSL. The Lake Shore lost the dining car due to Heritage diner shortages. The Star lost its dining car to cut costs. Because the Silver Star doesn't have a diner, the train now only needs one locomotive, and they ditched ALL the diner staff.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry dont think the Star dinning staff was cut, I recall they are still working, but on a longer schedule. In example ever 9th day compares to ever 7th day. Random numbers used for explanations. Now it been a few years, one think simple turnovers, and retirement would downsize the crew base. Be interesting if the Unions would fight to stop the crew from going back to the normal work schedule?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you mean? The Silver Star doesn’t have a dining car, so it obviously doesn’t have dining car staff. Sorry if I’m misunderstanding your post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They're probably working other trains, like the Meteor. Or they working in other capacities on the Star.
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. I would have thought that Amtrak would ‘cut loose’ some of the staff, if they were no longer needed for the SS diner. There were probably around 20 total dining car staff on the Star (between the four consists). Does Amtrak really have use for all of them elsewhere?


----------



## Lonestar648

They would fit them in, pushing the newbies to the extra board. Union would protect these regular workers.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

No it was report that Crew base was increasing the days off for the crews. So everyone would be working just not as often. Is this still happening, never heard otherwise. Never heard about layoffs either. Guaranteed extra board work. No cost saving in crews, just a decrease in income from no dinner.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> And there is no chance that the Star would get a dining car before the LSL. The Lake Shore lost the dining car due to Heritage diner shortages. The Star lost its dining car to cut costs. Because the Silver Star doesn't have a diner, the train now only needs one locomotive, and they ditched ALL the diner staff.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry dont think the Star dinning staff was cut, I recall they are still working, but on a longer schedule. In example ever 9th day compares to ever 7th day. Random numbers used for explanations. Now it been a few years, one think simple turnovers, and retirement would downsize the crew base. Be interesting if the Unions would fight to stop the crew from going back to the normal work schedule?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What do you mean? The Silver Star doesn’t have a dining car, so it obviously doesn’t have dining car staff. Sorry if I’m misunderstanding your post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They're probably working other trains, like the Meteor. Or they working in other capacities on the Star.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, I see. I would have thought that Amtrak would ‘cut loose’ some of the staff, if they were no longer needed for the SS diner. There were probably around 20 total dining car staff on the Star (between the four consists). Does Amtrak really have use for all of them elsewhere?
Click to expand...

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Amtrak staffing works. The crew for any single train is a drop in the bucket for their overall staffing numbers.


----------



## mgl1978

Two new viewliner diners headed south on 2/28/2018


----------



## PRR 60

Posts regarding the possible summer 2018 suspension of the Lake Shore Limited New York section have been moved to a new topic.

No New York Section of the Lake Shore This Summer?


----------



## tommylicious

Thanks for posting and good to see. What else is in that consist?



mgl1978 said:


> Two new viewliner diners headed south on 2/28/2018


----------



## PVD

Looks like a regular SM, so 2 P42, AM2 coaches and cafe/lounge,V2 diner,3 VL sleepers, VL , + the "guests" I am sure if I missed something, someone will catch it.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Looks like a regular SM, so 2 P42, AM2 coaches and cafe/lounge,V2 diner,3 VL sleepers, VL , + the "guests" I am sure if I missed something, someone will catch it.


And that one the second P42 is #184 - Phase IV Heritage Unit.


----------



## PVD

Thanks, didn't see that. I was out of the house when I looked at the clip, and with the size of the image on my phone, I was probably lucky I recognized it as a train.


----------



## Thirdrail7

68017 is released for service. Thanks for the pictures, Fleet One and Fleet Three. (I always forget about MGL!)



lordsigma said:


> Though If the reason is they have changed their minds and want to keep the current "diner-lite" setup, technically there is nothing forcing them to restore a full menu even with the Viewliner diners. I could see them putting the new cars on the LSL and Cardinal but keeping the same current menu. One way Amtrak could alter its diner operations is to use a diner-lite style menu at off peak times of the year and then offer a fuller menu at peak times that takes full advantage of the car's facilities. One could argue it makes sense for them to still replace the old rolling stock with the new Viewliner cars on those trains even if they don't want to resume a full Diner menu. This is of course just speculation, but they aren't necessarily forced to expand the menu immediately just by using the physical car on the train.









While the cars may enter service, they may end up being diner lites, cafe/lounges, full service dining cars or cafeteria cars. We'll see what the summer brings.

Time will tell but as Jis mentioned, I just don't get the feeling you'll see a full service dining car return to the LSL..in the immediate future.


----------



## jis

jis said:


> I was merely guessing that they will do it with the time table change for the Summer or some such. I don;t think they will do it the day after they have sufficient number of Diners.


Now with the GCT shuffle seemingly lasting till Labor Day, perhaps Diner Service can safely be written off until Labor Day. Again, jus ta thought based on nothing concrete.


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was merely guessing that they will do it with the time table change for the Summer or some such. I don;t think they will do it the day after they have sufficient number of Diners.
> 
> 
> 
> Now with the GCT shuffle seemingly lasting till Labor Day, perhaps Diner Service can safely be written off until Labor Day. Again, jus ta thought based on nothing concrete.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. Boston is not set up to service and stock a full service diner. Getting them set up from a catering and maintenance standpoint for just three months does not seem worth the aggravation. Meanwhile, they can get some more cars delivered, get Chicago up to speed with the new diners over the summer, and return the full service diner to the Lake Shore when it makes its triumphant return to NYP in September.


----------



## stappend

Personally I wish the diner was based out of Boston, with the longer trip and getting back well into the evening hours. But, I understand that operationally it makes more sense to have it in New York. Wishful thinking, the diner based out of Boston with a Bag/Dorm to support the staff.


----------



## jis

stappend said:


> Personally I wish the diner was based out of Boston, with the longer trip and getting back well into the evening hours. But, I understand that operationally it makes more sense to have it in New York. Wishful thinking, the diner based out of Boston with a Bag/Dorm to support the staff.


Yeah, Southampton Street would throw an apoplectic fit if they were asked to handle a Diner I would imagine. They have enough problem with a single Sleeper as it is.


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> 68017 is released for service. Thanks for the pictures, Fleet One and Fleet Three. (I always forget about MGL!)


See if you can manage to schedule the next batch when I'm in the same time zone.


----------



## CHvision

I don't know if this fits the topic but from another group, heritage diner 8505 will be used as an axle count car


----------



## cpotisch

CHvision said:


> I don't know if this fits the topic but from another group, heritage diner 8505 will be used as an axle count car


What's an axle count car?


----------



## PerRock

cpotisch said:


> CHvision said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if this fits the topic but from another group, heritage diner 8505 will be used as an axle count car
> 
> 
> 
> What's an axle count car?
Click to expand...

It's a non-revenue car tacked onto the end of a train so that the train has enough axles to be allowed to run on the host railroad's tracks. CN is the only railroad I know of that has this requirement for some of the Midwest Corridor trains.

peter


----------



## Trogdor

The history is that about 10-15 years ago, Amtrak had a couple of grade crossing collisions on the CN where the gates reportedly failed to activate. It was determined that apparently CN's track circuits were shitty enough that four- or five-car train (or whatever the length was) wasn't enough to trigger the crossing gates. Ever since, both the Carbondale line and the Port Huron line have had minimum axle counts (and possibly different minimum counts for each line...not sure), so even if Amtrak only needs 2 or 3 cars for the passenger load, they have to run a bunch of deadhead cars just to get enough axles, because apparently fixing grade crossings is too hard for CN to do in only a decade.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

a lot of it has to do with car maintenance, the axles have ground bushes on them, but if you do not maintain those the light railcars of today simply won't shunt.

same played a roll in bearing failures on NJT EMU's a few years back .


----------



## cpotisch

So Montpelier and Nashville are currently in Hialeah? And Montgomery is in service on the Meteor?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## DSS&A

Hi,

Does anyone have the floor plan for the upcoming V-2 baggage/sleeper combine and full sleepers?


----------



## cpotisch

DSS&A said:


> Hi,
> 
> Does anyone have the floor plan for the upcoming V-2 baggage/sleeper combine and full sleepers?


I don’t have an actual floor plan but the Bag-Dorms will be 8 Roomettes, with the rest the baggage area. Full sleepers have the exact same layout as the V-Is, with the exception of the two roomettes that were replaced with shared bathrooms.


----------



## StriderGDM

Two roomettes? My understanding is one roomette was replaced with 2 bathrooms.


----------



## PVD

I believe it is one roomette becomes the 2 bathrooms. The bathrooms don't need to be large, the H room handles accessibility.


----------



## Steve4031

And the shower.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

Well, the shower already exists, that remains roughly the same.....H and A&B already have their own....


----------



## jis

Right. There is net loss of one Roomette which is replaced by two Restrooms. Everything else remains more or less the same.


----------



## Lonestar648

On the SL Sleeper, the bathroom is one half the width of the roomette.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> I believe it is one roomette becomes the 2 bathrooms. The bathrooms don't need to be large, the H room handles accessibility.


My bad. I would have sworn it was two.


----------



## PVD

Because the sinks remain in the roomettes for wash-up/shaving, and handicapped accessibility is provided by the H room, they are using 2 half roomette width toilet modules. It should be more than adequate for the number of rooms in question.


----------



## DSS&A

I found these photos of the baggage-dorms on-line showing both sides of the car. The one side has four top-bottom paired windows, the other side has 5 paired windows and a 6th top-only window.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/download/file.php?id=17692&mode=view

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/489034/


----------



## PVD

For the bag dorm, you would have 8 roomettes (4 pairs on each side, + one set for the shower and the other for the toilet....not sure which is which on the 5th and 6th sets.


----------



## IndyLions

Since Amtrak is getting to the point where they could deploy some of the new Diners to another train this spring/summer - what do we speculate they will do with them? They could let them sit (what a waste), they could put them on the LSL (but all indications seem to be it won’t run to NY this summer), they could add them to the Silver Star or Cardinal (but they’d have to add staff).

Any thoughts?

Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

IndyLions said:


> Since Amtrak is getting to the point where they could deploy some of the new Diners to another train this spring/summer - what do we speculate they will do with them? They could let them sit (what a waste), they could put them on the LSL (but all indications seem to be it won’t run to NY this summer), they could add them to the Silver Star or Cardinal (but they’d have to add staff).
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum


I still expect the LSL to be next. The diner could just run ALB-CHI (or maybe possibly BOS-CHI). The Card is getting cut off at WAS as well, so if it is such a problem, don't expect a diner on that either. And bare in mind that it will possibly be switched to Superliners temporarily. The Lake Shore already has the staff and facilities in place that would support a dining car, so it's really all up to equipment offerings and Amtrak management.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I suspect they will become new diner lite cars or a place to pick up Acela type cart meals.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> I suspect they will become new diner lite cars or a place to pick up Acela type cart meals.


A V-II diner lite doesn't sound that bad. The ambience and layout are terrible in the AF Diner-Lites, so it would be infinitely better with V-IIs.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

I still have no idea , how fantasies have anything to do with production and delivery ??


----------



## neroden

I would be deeply unsurprised if the Diner runs to Boston and the food service continues to be substandard (though, dammit, can they just get some freshly cooked eggs in the morning?). Boston *does* have a commissary, even if it's not equipped for everything the New York commissary is equipped for. It actually makes more sense to have the dining car coming from Boston in some ways.


----------



## Brian Battuello

I happen to have taken the Boston to Albany leg about five times. I find myself in Boston and with infinite Amtrak miles, grab a sleeper to Albany and a whatever back to Croton. For a while they served a weird catered tray in our room, but last time they told us to just go to the lounge car and get one drink, one main dish, and one dessert. Whatever, I'm happy to just sit in my room and enjoy the view.


----------



## cpotisch

So Montpelier and Nashville were delivered 15 days ago. They should be finished in around 2 weeks. That brings the ViewDiner count to 17 (including 8400), definitely sufficient for the LSL. Is it correct that Albany can stock and deal with a diner on the Lake Shore?


----------



## PVD

Not without a major effort in structure, personnel, and contracts. As far as I can recall,there has not been a commissary in Albany for quite a long time. Remember, NYP -ALB trains have no food service. Albany is an enroute or midpoint, not an endpoint for any trains with food.


----------



## OBS

PVD said:


> Not without a major effort in structure, personnel, and contracts. As far as I can recall,there has not been a commissary in Albany for quite a long time. Remember, NYP -ALB trains have no food service. Albany is an enroute or midpoint, not an endpoint for any trains with food.


Correct.


----------



## Steve4031

Is it possible to stock a viewliner diner in Chicago for a round trip to boston?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

Steve4031 said:


> Is it possible to stock a viewliner diner in Chicago for a round trip to boston?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


That would primarily come down to capacity onboard, though the infrastructure is already in place. If they were to use the baggage car to store food (maybe use a large cooler or fridge), then they could probably stock the train sufficiently.


----------



## PVD

Where are the present dining car employees based? I don't know, but I'm sure someone on the board will have an answer. If NY, you would then need to bid the jobs in a new city, train the new people, hire to fill the jobs they may have bid out of, only to lay off the people when it all reverts. Also, you are adding another city to the list of places where a protect diner should be, as well as line maintenance capabilities. As to space, the LSL carries 2 bags when it splits one to NYP one to BOS,, if you keep the second car, space would not be a problem, but the expense of installing secure storage and power for an abbreviated period of time just might not fly. I'd still put my money on Albany.


----------



## lordsigma

Boston could likely handle servicing and stocking the diner because it has a commissary for the NEC trains does it not? But another problem is staff. No diner crew normally staff the Boston section because its normally just the cafe one sleeper and a coach. I doubt they want to change the crew that have to go between Albany and Boston. I could see them physically running the whole train to Boston in order to stock the diner, but only selling tickets for the normal Boston section to avoid altering the staffing on the train, and only open up the other cars at Albany. I'd assume you'd also need to shuttle crew on an Empire train (or a special shuttle train if they do some type of LSL Shuttle to GCT) between Albany and New York to get staff to where they normally go. I would imagine they dont want to change anything staffing wise since this is just a summer unless they are planning on making permanent changes to the train.

On that note where are the diner and sleeper staff based out of? I guess it wouldn't matter if they were all Chicago based, but if its a mix of New York and Chicago then they probably don't want to change anything.


----------



## jis

NEC trains serve only pre-packaged food, unlike what is expected in a full service Diner. However, the current Dinette fare can probably be served easily out of Boston with some additional effort. The bigger problem will be servicing the full length LSL at Southampton Street. Perhaps Third Rail can throw some more reliable info into the mix on this matter.


----------



## KnightRail

Dutchrailnut said:


> I still have no idea , how fantasies have anything to do with production and delivery ??


And neither do the aprox. last ten posts have anything to do with VII production and delivery. They all have to do with LSL summer reroute and should be moved into that thread.


----------



## Thirdrail7

KnightRail said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still have no idea , how fantasies have anything to do with production and delivery ??
> 
> 
> 
> And neither do the aprox. last ten posts have anything to do with VII production and delivery. They all have to do with LSL summer reroute and should be moved into that thread.
Click to expand...


This thread is 1622 posts. If we moved everything that wasn't related to actual production and delivery and eliminated fantasy posts, the thread would likely be 80 posts!






As for Southampton's yard, if they service it in the S&I, the length would be an issue. There is nothing saying they can't break it up but it may hinder servicing the other trains.

As for commissary, the national network has different products than the regional trains. It would be a matter of seeing if they have the stock available at the servicing locations.


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still have no idea , how fantasies have anything to do with production and delivery ??
> 
> 
> 
> And neither do the aprox. last ten posts have anything to do with VII production and delivery. They all have to do with LSL summer reroute and should be moved into that thread.
Click to expand...

While I agree, this conversation started off with the prospect of adding a V-II diner to the LSL, and then segued to the LSL termination. I would agree that these posts be moved to the "Empire Service to GCT, Numerous NYP adjustments 2018" thread.


----------



## jis

That is why we have moderators. Everyone does not need to become ersatz moderators, even though sometimes I do get that urge too.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dutchrailnut said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still have no idea , how fantasies have anything to do with production and delivery ??
> 
> 
> 
> And neither do the aprox. last ten posts have anything to do with VII production and delivery. They all have to do with LSL summer reroute and should be moved into that thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While I agree, this conversation started off with the prospect of adding a V-II diner to the LSL, and then segued to the LSL termination. I would agree that these posts be moved to the "Empire Service to GCT, Numerous NYP adjustments 2018" thread.
> 
> EDIT: Then again, what difference does it actually make.
Click to expand...

The difference is people come to these threads based on the headers. If the come to this one looking for info on the new VLII's they don't want to have to read through all of the LSL truncation posts. As you may remember, other trains are using the VLII's.


----------



## jis

AU does allow these streams to meander all over the place, including flowing to an entirely different ocean sometimes


----------



## PRR 60

jis said:


> AU does allow these streams to meander all over the place, including flowing to an entirely different ocean sometimes


It's a balancing act between taking a hard interpretation of what is and is not on-topic and maybe stifling interesting conversation, and just letting anything go in every topic and having discussion wander all over the place. My personal approach is to interfere as little as possible. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. Some like it, some do not.

I will take a look back at this thread and see if some posts should either be merged into another existing topic or split into a new topic.


----------



## Ryan

You’re doing a fine job. There is the other, boring, “news only” thread for those that don’t like the meander.


----------



## jis

Oh I was not complaining.... just observing


----------



## Lonestar648

I thought the LSL DCcrew was NYC based.


----------



## Steve4031

Iirc yhe lsl food diner lite car is nyp based. The lounge going to bos is chicago based iirc. So changing the diner service of any type will be complicated unless amtrak can temporarily move the lsl diner crew base to chicago.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## OBS

Lonestar648 said:


> I thought the LSL DCcrew was NYC based.


Correct.


----------



## cpotisch

Have Mady and/or Monty entered service yet? I can't remember if that was mentioned.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Have Mady and/or Monty entered service yet? I can't remember if that was mentioned.


Both of them entered service some time ago.


----------



## stappend

Here's hoping that the ~5weeks between delivery continues to hold. If they can stick to that and finish up the last 9 diners in the next 5 months, hopefully we'll start seeing some bag/dorms in the fall. It would also be nice to hear about putting some of those diners into some type of service; diner lites or even a pay as you go diner on the Star.


----------



## west point

Thirdrail7 said:


> 68018 has entered protect service in NYP.


Have wondered if there will ever be a protect at WASH ? That would cover any defects happening NYP - WASH.


----------



## pennyk

Montgomery is on today's (4/1) train 98 (as am I)


----------



## cpotisch

So just as a list of all the delivered diners (forgive me if I'm wrong):

The obvious ones:


68001 'Annapolis' - entered service
68002 'Atlanta' - entered service
68003 'Augusta' - entered service
68004 'Baton Rouge' - entered service
68005 'Boston' - entered service
68006 'Charleston' - entered service
68007 'Columbia' - entered service
68008 'Columbus' - entered service
68012 'Harrisburg' - entered service
68013 'Hartford' - entered service'
68014 'Jackson' - entered service
68015 'Lansing' - entered service
68016 'Madison' - entered service
68017 'Montgomery' - entered service
And Montpelier/Nashville have yet to enter service, with Montpelier protecting, and Nashville not quite ready for service?


----------



## Lonestar648

16 shipped by CAF, two more due soon. Seems like Amtrak is getting in a position to deploy the VII Diners on another train.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

west point said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 68018 has entered protect service in NYP.
> 
> 
> 
> Have wondered if there will ever be a protect at WASH ? That would cover any defects happening NYP - WASH.
Click to expand...

I was on 91 (31), which had a defective sleeping car that was replaced at Washington. However, I don't know if it was a protect or was part of the Cardinal consist that arrived the day before.


----------



## KnightRail

brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 68018 has entered protect service in NYP.
> 
> 
> 
> Have wondered if there will ever be a protect at WASH ? That would cover any defects happening NYP - WASH.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was on 91 (31), which had a defective sleeping car that was replaced at Washington. However, I don't know if it was a protect or was part of the Cardinal consist that arrived the day before.
Click to expand...

Yea other than the time it takes to do the switching, that worked out well. Ordinarily there are not 25000, 28000, 62000, or 68000 series protects in WAS. Mark that as a positive for the Cardinal turning at WAS. What a horrible thought, being downgraded from a sleeper to coach due to a shopped car.


----------



## jis

Happened to me once. I asked for a refund, got it and flew instead. I have completely forsworn doing LD Coach on Amtrak after getting shuffled around from seat to seat to address the needs of seemingly everyone else on the train except myself upon the threat of being kicked off the train for not obeying random commands of the crew.


Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Happened to me once. I asked for a refund, got it and flew instead. I have completely foresworn doing LD Coach on Amtrak after getting shuffled around from seat to seat to address the needs of seemingly everyone else on the train except myself upon. The threat of being kicked off the train for not obeying random commands of the crew.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


Same here. I either get a roomette or fly. I head down to Florida a couple times a year, and as unpleasant as the airlines are, I would rather endure that for three hours than be stuck in a (much more spacious) seat 26 hours overnight, effectively with 60 other roommates. Additionally, its often cheaper to fly than take coach on Amtrak.
I know that for many people, a fear of flying or a medical condition prohibits them from taking a plane, but for me, my love of Amtrak isnt great enough to justify spending more than a day in a seat.


----------



## railiner

jis said:


> Happened to me once. I asked for a refund, got it and flew instead. I have completely foresworn doing LD Coach on Amtrak after getting shuffled around from seat to seat to address the needs of seemingly everyone else on the train except myself upon. The threat of being kicked off the train for not obeying random commands of the crew.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


If I went to the trouble of reserving a trip early, got to the station early, in an attempt to get a choice seating locale; I too would be very displeased, to put it mildly, if I was ordered to give up my choice location...


----------



## Seaboard92

I generally only will do sleeper. Occasionally I will do coach but never overnight, and the trains sleepers must be astronomical. Hence my next trip I'm deadheading out on the cardinal. It's a daylight trip. Then I don't need to waste the money on the sleeper. But if I take 91/92 north from SC I will always do a sleeper.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Exits forthcoming.


----------



## CHvision

What happened to 8400- Indianapolis? It hasn't been seen often now.


----------



## Thirdrail7

It's currently protecting in NY. They also have a new one protecting in NOL.


----------



## stappend

Thirdrail7 said:


> Exits forthcoming.


No hint as to which cars?


----------



## StriderGDM

Provide and Raleigh is what some are guessing.


----------



## me_little_me

StriderGDM said:


> Provide and Raleigh is what some are guessing.


Amtrak ran out of letters?


----------



## neroden

Fergodssake let's get some fresh-cooked eggs on the LSL already...


----------



## GBNorman

OK let's see.

If 20-Providence and 21-Raleigh are about to be on the way, than that means eighteen will be on the property and only seven remain to be delivered.

Then there will be enough for Mr. Nerode to have his bacon and eggs on the Lake Shore as well as assign protects to SSY, HIA, NOL and CHI - and still have two in the backshop.

The Cardinal and Star, if they are ever to see these cars, will have to wait for the final seven.

Now one trivial thing has me puzzled. Why was Trenton passed over as a name in favor of Baton Rouge? Yes, the latter being derived from French "sounds sweeter", but Trenton has the potential to see the cars pass through on four trains a day. New Jersey has provided far more of a legislative caucus to further Amtrak interests than Louisiana ever has. And finally, only a small amount of Louisiana is to the East of the Mississippi, but which admittedly includes New Orleans.

So let's just leave that thought with a "we report, you decide".


----------



## Acela150

GBNorman said:


> Now one trivial thing has me puzzled. Why was Trenton passed over as a name in favor of Baton Rouge? Yes, the latter being derived from French "sounds sweeter", but Trenton has the potential to see the cars pass through on four trains a day. New Jersey has provided far more of a legislative caucus to further Amtrak interests than Louisiana ever has. And finally, only a small amount of Louisiana is to the East of the Mississippi, but which admittedly includes New Orleans.


Really? Who cares?!


----------



## Thirdrail7

Heavy merge ahead.


----------



## daybeers

Acela150 said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now one trivial thing has me puzzled. Why was Trenton passed over as a name in favor of Baton Rouge? Yes, the latter being derived from French "sounds sweeter", but Trenton has the potential to see the cars pass through on four trains a day. New Jersey has provided far more of a legislative caucus to further Amtrak interests than Louisiana ever has. And finally, only a small amount of Louisiana is to the East of the Mississippi, but which admittedly includes New Orleans.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Who cares?!
Click to expand...

Acela150: Easy man!
GBNorman: Trenton isn't included in the list because there are only 25 diners. If there was just one more, Trenton would be made.

On Track On Line link to the Viewliner names: http://on-track-on-line.com/amtkrinf-viewname.shtml


----------



## AmtrakBlue

GBNorman said:


> OK let's see.
> 
> If 20-Providence and 21-Raleigh are about to be on the way, than that means eighteen will be on the property and only seven remain to be delivered.
> 
> Then there will be enough for Mr. Nerode to have his bacon and eggs on the Lake Shore as well as assign protects to SSY, HIA, NOL and CHI - and still have two in the backshop.
> 
> The Cardinal and Star, if they are ever to see these cars, will have to wait for the final seven.
> 
> Now one trivial thing has me puzzled. Why was Trenton passed over as a name in favor of Baton Rouge? Yes, the latter being derived from French "sounds sweeter", but Trenton has the potential to see the cars pass through on four trains a day. New Jersey has provided far more of a legislative caucus to further Amtrak interests than Louisiana ever has. And finally, only a small amount of Louisiana is to the East of the Mississippi, but which admittedly includes New Orleans.
> 
> So let's just leave that thought with a "we report, you decide".


Have you not noticed that the names are in alphabetical order? There are not enough diners to reach Trenton in that order.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

So including 8400, that makes 20 ViewDiners. LSL! LSL!


----------



## Palmetto

Hmm. There are 3 capitals in Thirdrail's post. I wonder...........


----------



## Ziv

Richmond is next alphabetically, and would be a very welcome surprise.



Palmetto said:


> Hmm. There are 3 capitals in Thirdrail's post. I wonder...........


----------



## cpotisch

Palmetto said:


> Hmm. There are 3 capitals in Thirdrail's post. I wonder...........


Exactly. That’ll make for a total of 20 ViewDiners.


----------



## jis

So after the three, the ones that are still missing would be:


Albany
Concord
Dover
Frankfort
Springfield
Tallahassee
So there would be 19 V2 Diners and one V1 Diner to make for 20 VL Diners.

Did I get that right? Or did I mess up something?

Ironically, Amtrak apparently has no real use for more than 12 or so.(if that assuming 33% overhead) for use as a Diner, in the brave new world.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> So after the three, the ones that are still missing would be:
> 
> 
> Albany
> Concord
> Dover
> Frankfort
> Springfield
> Tallahassee
> So there would be 19 V2 Diners and one V1 Diner to make for 20 VL Diners.
> Did I get that right? Or did I mess up something?
> 
> Ironically, Amtrak apparently has no real use for more than 12 or so.(if that assuming 33% overhead) for use as a Diner, in the brave new world.


Exactly. It’s all up to management at this point. At least run them as diner-lites, but just keeping them in Hialeah/WAS/NOL is ridiculous.


----------



## crescent-zephyr

I was under the impression at the time (but perhaps wrong?) that part of the reasoning for the Amfleet II - Diner Lite conversion is that those cars could be bused to protect either a diner or a lounge on long distance trains?


----------



## TiBike

Equipment deployment follows service decisions, not vice versa. Assuming even a fraction of the rumors about Amtrak 2.0 are true, it makes perfect sense to keep equipment on the sidelines until the new service plans are rolled out in a month or two (or three or four). Trying to shoehorn new diners into soon-to-be changed service concepts would be at best a distraction, both for staff and customers. Coordinated, consistent company-wide planning and implementation is not something we're used to seeing at Amtrak, but it looks like the times are a-changing...


----------



## cpotisch

crescent-zephyr said:


> I was under the impression at the time (but perhaps wrong?) that part of the reasoning for the Amfleet II - Diner Lite conversion is that those cars could be bused to protect either a diner or a lounge on long distance trains?


Well, since LSL uses its Amfleet I split Business/Cafe as both a snack car and Business Class car, it can't be replaced by a Diner-Lite (which doesn't have seats).


----------



## cpotisch

TiBike said:


> Equipment deployment follows service decisions, not vice versa. Assuming even a fraction of the rumors about Amtrak 2.0 are true, it makes perfect sense to keep equipment on the sidelines until the new service plans are rolled out in a month or two (or three or four). Trying to shoehorn new diners into soon-to-be changed service concepts would be at best a distraction, both for staff and customers. Coordinated, consistent company-wide planning and implementation is not something we're used to seeing at Amtrak, but it looks like the times are a-changing...


Remind me what Amtrak 2.0 is?


----------



## jis

Amtrak 2.0 is a term coined by Thirdrail to refer to the shape of Amtrak after Anderson has executed on his vision for it. - At least that is the impression I have.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

68019 departed Miami in revenue service this morning on 98.


----------



## kdeschner

Do you think If I ride the LSL in June that there will be a Dining Car on it?


----------



## cpotisch

kdeschner said:


> Do you think If I ride the LSL in June that there will be a Dining Car on it?


No. LSL isn't going to NYC this summer, so there really isn't anywhere easy to service a diner. With all due respect, this has been covered like 100 times.


----------



## cpotisch

TR, can you give us a hint as to when 680[20-22] are coming?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think If I ride the LSL in June that there will be a Dining Car on it?
> 
> 
> 
> No. LSL isn't going to NYC this summer, so there really isn't anywhere easy to service a diner. With all due respect, this has been covered like 100 times.
Click to expand...

With all due respect I think the person you’re responding to is new and probably has not read through the hundreds of posts you’re referring to.
Feel free to “delete” your post





Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## PVD

While the diners are the cars we currently focus on, I'm pretty interested in seeing the bag dorms roll out, curious as to how they are utilized, a train like the LSL could pick up quite a few revenue rooms which might help pricing and availability.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think If I ride the LSL in June that there will be a Dining Car on it?
> 
> 
> 
> No. LSL isn't going to NYC this summer, so there really isn't anywhere easy to service a diner. With all due respect, this has been covered like 100 times.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With all due respect I think the person you’re responding to is new and probably has not read through the hundreds of posts you’re referring to.Feel free to “delete” your post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Member since 2015. And there’s nothing wrong with not noticing that the question has been answered. I was just letting him know that this was covered.


----------



## CraigDK

cpotisch said:


> TR, can you give us a hint as to when 680[20-22] are coming?


If my memory is decent, TR seems to post hints about 2 weeks out... But I suppose that could change...


----------



## kdeschner

Sorry, I´m still trying to figure my way around this site. Sorry!


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> kdeschner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think If I ride the LSL in June that there will be a Dining Car on it?
> 
> 
> 
> No. LSL isn't going to NYC this summer, so there really isn't anywhere easy to service a diner. With all due respect, this has been covered like 100 times.
Click to expand...

However, it is worth pointing out that this is the collective speculation here at AU. There is no official word this way or that from Amtrak on this matter.


----------



## Ziv

I think we are looking at 6 additional diners, then 10 bag-dorms (?) and then 25 sleepers, generally arriving about 2 per month. It will be interesting to see the impact of the bag-dorms but I really am looking forward to seeing new sleeper cars delivered. CAF has been ridiculously slow but they are delivering cars. I wish that Amtrak could re-negotiate the existing deal, perhaps giving CAF a better price to compensate for the lost sub-contractors that were supposed to allow CAF to deliver the cars at the lower, original, prices. CAF claims that given their present sub-contractors, CAF will lose $40Mn on this deal. It is probably too late to do so, but if Amtrak offered them more for an additional 20 sleepers, I wonder if there is a way to profitably use them on the Easter LD trains. From what I have read here though, it sounds like they have already laid off the people that built the VLII shells and would need to re-hire the welders and techs to build more, which won't happen. Or so my memory leads me to believe.

"CAF and Amtrak agreed in June 2014 to change the order to include 70 baggage cars, 25 diners, 10 baggage-dormitory cars and 25 sleepers. The last cars in the order were given a new delivery due date of no later than April 2016."

Amtrak 2/1/2016


----------



## cpotisch

kdeschner said:


> Sorry, I´m still trying to figure my way around this site. Sorry!


Don't apologize. I shouldn't have been so snide. Especially since I’ve made that kind of mistake multiple times.


----------



## jis

CAF has been continuously manufacturing other cars for transit etc. I would be surprised if they simply laid off everyone that was working on VLIIs and then went and hired a different set for their other car orders.


----------



## Dutchrailnut

there is still 10 more dinners to be delivered.


----------



## cpotisch

Dutchrailnut said:


> there is still 10 more dinners to be delivered.


Including the ones Thirdrail indicated are coming up soon, there are nine left.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

68000 Albany

68001 Annapolis

68002 Atlanta

68003 Augusta

68004 Baton Rouge

68005 Boston

68006 Charleston

68007 Columbia

68008 Columbus

68009 Concord

68010 Dover

68011 Frankfort

68012 Harrisburg

68013 Hartford

8400 Indianapolis

68014 Jackson

68015 Lansing

68016 Madison

68017 Montgomery

68018 Montpelier

68019 Nashville

68020 Providence

68021 Raleigh

68022 Richmond

68023 Springfield

68024 Tallahassee


----------



## cpotisch

So I guess diners will probably be finished by September.

We sure won’t be seeing those sleepers until well into 2019.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## west point

Wonder how Amtrak will route new V-2s during the Empire connection shutdown ?,


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> TR, can you give us a hint as to when 680[20-22] are coming?


Next week. Same bat time, same bat channel, same bat formation.



west point said:


> Wonder how Amtrak will route new V-2s during the Empire connection shutdown ?,


Via the B&A.


----------



## neroden

Seriously, if they can service an Amfleet II cafe in Boston, they can service a Viewliner Diner in Boston. They're both train cars, for god's sake, it's not like one of them is a horse and the other is an emu. :sigh:


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> Seriously, if they can service an Amfleet II cafe in Boston, they can service a Viewliner Diner in Boston. They're both train cars, for god's sake, it's not like one of them is a horse and the other is an emu. :sigh:


Not necessarily. Even assuming they use it as a diner-lite, Boston might not have the staff and commissary in place to stock the car.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Stuff the crew and supplies in the back of a truck and drive it up to Boston....

Ok lack of leadership, need to pick where the train is going, and then adjust the rest of the support systems. Sure the cost of each option is needed, and I am sure that the sticking point, but the time to make the call is fast approaching.


----------



## Thirdrail7

There's a difference between servicing and maintaining. If one of the views came in with flat spots or shells that wouldn't turn, now you have to change the wheels. Not ever car is built the same so they don't lift the same. They also may not have the actual wheels and associated rigging in place for a "one off" car and that's not something that you're "stuffing in the back of a truck."

That's why railroads have "designated repair facilities."


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Mobile repair truck. Replace a wheel or a complete RR truck with traction motors. Use by Amtrak and Freight railroads across the country. In-House or Contractors.

Last check Boston did not have a drop table, any wheel type replacements need a outside crane.

Ever solution has issues that need to be addressed, you start by picking the end points and go from there.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Mobile repair truck. Replace a wheel or a complete RR truck with traction motors. Use by Amtrak and Freight railroads across the country. In-House or Contractors.
> 
> Last check Boston did not have a drop table, any wheel type replacements need a outside crane.
> 
> Ever solution has issues that need to be addressed, you start by picking the end points and go from there.


Indeed...every issue probably has a solution that can be overcome if you have enough money and resources to commit to it. You're now talking about bringing in a crane (which if its mobile and does not meet in house specifications, you now need to remove portions of the catenary) trucking people (because if you've never used the car and aren't qualified,,,,remember, it is a federal rule that personnel must be qualified on the equipment to execute inspections and repairs) and equipment from 100's of miles away, putting them in hotels, paying them to repair a one off move.

Again, this is why there are 'designated repair" facilities. They have the tools, parts and qualified personnel to make necessary repairs. While the procedures used above HAVE been done (I'm thinking of an electric that was trapped in CHI), a more common practice is to obtain a waiver from the FRA to move the car with defect to a designated repair facility.

This is what they did with the equipment from CAYCE.


----------



## GBNorman

OK; it certainly appears some loose ends are being tied up with the obviously first hand knowledge Mr. Third Rail is willing to share at this topic.

It further appears that Mr. Nerode's want of his bacon and eggs aboard the Lake Shore should override any benefit from operational efficiency during the "Son of Summer From Hell".

On the "flip", Amtrak could find themselves on the wrong end of a "why do you have eighteen (or more) cars sitting around when you only need eight to cover the trains you use them on?" from some Critter responding to a constituent who remembers "the good old days" and that Amtrak should continue to offer same.

All told, the "Gunnmen" discontinued through BOS-CHI service in the name of operational efficiency. It was restored under Boardman. I highly doubt if that restoration was initiated by Amtrak in the name of a service attraction. There certainly appear to be "political heavies" from up that way prepared to lean where need be. Towards that same end, had those "heavies" not been there, the electrification might never been done and NHV-BOS could have been relegated to "important connection to the NHV-WAS Corridor" standing.


----------



## jis

At the end of the day the equation is pretty simple. The heavies provide money and things happen. They don't provide money and try to substitute with hot air, then either things don;t happen or some Peter is robbed to pay Paul.

If someone actually tries to put the financial house in order they are almost universally hated, since inevitably much pain has to be inflicted in a situation where at best one can barely rbeak even overall.


----------



## Lonestar648

We are now mid-April should we be expecting two VII released from CAF, it has been about 6 weeks and if I remember correctly the last ones were late February.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> We are now mid-April should we be expecting two VII released from CAF, it has been about 6 weeks and if I remember correctly the last ones were late February.


As Thirdrail said, we are expecting three more V-IIs, cars 68020-22, next week. The last two were delivered Feb. 27, so they're well overdue.


----------



## Lonestar648

I do apologize, I don't know how, but I missed reading Thirdrail's important update.


----------



## Walt

GBNorman said:


> On the "flip", Amtrak could find themselves on the wrong end of a "why do you have eighteen (or more) cars sitting around when you only need eight to cover the trains you use them on?" from some Critter responding to a constituent who remembers "the good old days" and that Amtrak should continue to offer same.


I would find it easy to defend this, by simply pointing out that these unused dinning cars were ordered, what, 10 years ago and based on the needs back then. A need that included supporting the Silver Star.

Though, I personally look at the VL II diner order as being basically a lifetime buy. These are probably the very last diners that Amtrak will ever buy, and any of them that go into unused storage are simply waiting for their turn to serve sometime in the future.


----------



## kdeschner

cpotisch said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, if they can service an Amfleet II cafe in Boston, they can service a Viewliner Diner in Boston. They're both train cars, for god's sake, it's not like one of them is a horse and the other is an emu. :sigh:
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. Even assuming they use it as a diner-lite, Boston might not have the staff and commissary in place to stock the car.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if this was already asked, but if a V2 were to be used as a Diner - Lite, or in the same format as the XC Cafe cars on the CONO, what else is needed In a commissary? They already serve Northeast Regional Cafes, but also Acela, Correct? and the Acela menu is a full menu. https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0417.pdf

Sorry if I am missing something here.


----------



## cpotisch

kdeschner said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, if they can service an Amfleet II cafe in Boston, they can service a Viewliner Diner in Boston. They're both train cars, for god's sake, it's not like one of them is a horse and the other is an emu. :sigh:
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. Even assuming they use it as a diner-lite, Boston might not have the staff and commissary in place to stock the car.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry if this was already asked, but if a V2 were to be used as a Diner - Lite, or in the same format as the XC Cafe cars on the CONO, what else is needed In a commissary? They already serve Northeast Regional Cafes, but also Acela, Correct? and the Acela menu is a full menu. https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Acela-Express-First-Class-Menus-0417.pdf
> 
> Sorry if I am missing something here.
Click to expand...

If a V-II is used as a diner lite on any of the four trains currently with a diner of some kind (LSL, Card, Crescent, Meteor), the existing commissaries could easily do the job. The main issue is that the crews and facilities might not currently be set up to maintain, service, and and operate the cars.


----------



## kdeschner

That makes sense, I forgot about the 448/9 Cafe Crew and 48/9 Diner Crew originating out of different points.


----------



## west point

Diners could be not used or Amtrak not have enough by 10 years in future. Speculation otherwise is just that a WAG.,


----------



## neroden

It is purest handwaving to suggest that Boston cannot do basic mechanical servicing on the Viewliner Diners, given that it can handle Viewliner I sleepers, Amfleet IIs, Amfleet Is, Acelas, Horizons, etc. I simply don't believe that. If they're that incompetent, honestly, I could replace them personally and do better -- and I think better of Amtrak than that.

They don't have a full "diner" commissary at Boston, *but the LSL isn't running a full diner menu anyway* right now. At least there would be a better atmosphere for the passengers and better conditions for the serving staff if the Amfleet II were replaced with the Viewliner right now, even if they can't bring fresh-cooked eggs back until the "summer of hell" is over.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Albany has no food service at all, so stock the food service cars in Boston would make more sense during Summer of Hell 2.0. Just on the fact there a truck with a Reefer to keep it cool before it getting loaded on to the train.

The need to find work for the new equipment is fast approaching. The reason not to will be running out shortly. Today is the Summer of Helll 2.0 Tomorrow will be what Off Peak?


----------



## PVD

Some Empire Service trains,as well as the Leaf,ADK, and EA still need stocking. Albany used to have a small commissary, if the space still exists, temporarily reopening is more likely than Boston


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> It is purest handwaving to suggest that Boston cannot do basic mechanical servicing on the Viewliner Diners, given that it can handle Viewliner I sleepers, Amfleet IIs, Amfleet Is, Acelas, Horizons, etc. I simply don't believe that. If they're that incompetent, honestly, I could replace them personally and do better -- and I think better of Amtrak than that.
> 
> They don't have a full "diner" commissary at Boston, *but the LSL isn't running a full diner menu anyway* right now. At least there would be a better atmosphere for the passengers and better conditions for the serving staff if the Amfleet II were replaced with the Viewliner right now, even if they can't bring fresh-cooked eggs back until the "summer of hell" is over.


No one is saying that Boston can’t maintain a V-II. But if they don’t have a commissary that can supply food for a diner(-lite), that’s a problem. Obviously ViewDiners are superior to AmCafes, but if Boston can’t supply anything beyond the Cafe’s offerings, something somewhere has to change. Honestly, this whole subject is more about how they can run a diner-lite on the LSL at all this summer, rather than what type of equipment will be used.


----------



## PVD

The food is provided by a national food service supplier, and there is no problem getting it to Boston. I point out Albany, because 5 other trains need stocking. The real challenge will be crew, perhaps the simplest might be to keep the NY crews and just have them deadhead up and back.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Excelsior has powered up with orders to pursue!


----------



## PVD

Thank you, I don't know why so many folks think zebras.....


----------



## lordsigma

cpotisch said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is purest handwaving to suggest that Boston cannot do basic mechanical servicing on the Viewliner Diners, given that it can handle Viewliner I sleepers, Amfleet IIs, Amfleet Is, Acelas, Horizons, etc. I simply don't believe that. If they're that incompetent, honestly, I could replace them personally and do better -- and I think better of Amtrak than that.
> 
> They don't have a full "diner" commissary at Boston, *but the LSL isn't running a full diner menu anyway* right now. At least there would be a better atmosphere for the passengers and better conditions for the serving staff if the Amfleet II were replaced with the Viewliner right now, even if they can't bring fresh-cooked eggs back until the "summer of hell" is over.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is saying that Boston can’t maintain a V-II. But if they don’t have a commissary that can supply food for a diner(-lite), that’s a problem. Obviously ViewDiners are superior to AmCafes, but if Boston can’t supply anything beyond the Cafe’s offerings, something somewhere has to change. Honestly, this whole subject is more about how they can run a diner-lite on the LSL at all this summer, rather than what type of equipment will be used.
Click to expand...

Even if they do the diner lite somehow this summer, it would probably only be open Albany-Chicago as the diner crew is New York based. The diner crew would likely be shuttled on an Empire Service train between Albany and Grand Central with the New York passengers.


----------



## StriderGDM

Thirdrail7 said:


> Excelsior has powered up with orders to pursue!


I'm hoping that's a poor analogy, since as we all know how well that particular pursuit went!


----------



## kdeschner

cpotisch said:


> neroden said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is purest handwaving to suggest that Boston cannot do basic mechanical servicing on the Viewliner Diners, given that it can handle Viewliner I sleepers, Amfleet IIs, Amfleet Is, Acelas, Horizons, etc. I simply don't believe that. If they're that incompetent, honestly, I could replace them personally and do better -- and I think better of Amtrak than that.
> 
> They don't have a full "diner" commissary at Boston, *but the LSL isn't running a full diner menu anyway* right now. At least there would be a better atmosphere for the passengers and better conditions for the serving staff if the Amfleet II were replaced with the Viewliner right now, even if they can't bring fresh-cooked eggs back until the "summer of hell" is over.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is saying that Boston can’t maintain a V-II. But if they don’t have a commissary that can supply food for a diner(-lite), that’s a problem. Obviously ViewDiners are superior to AmCafes, but if Boston can’t supply anything beyond the Cafe’s offerings, something somewhere has to change. Honestly, this whole subject is more about how they can run a diner-lite on the LSL at all this summer, rather than what type of equipment will be used.
Click to expand...

Does Boston Commissary stock Acela? IMHO If Boston can stock a first class cafe on Acela, which serves Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner, can't it stock a slightly modified diner?

https://www.amtrak.c...-Menus-0417.pdf

Here is the Acela menu, suitable for a diner? I am prob. missing something here! Just let me know!


----------



## Trogdor

Can we get this thread back to Viewliner production? There's already a thread discussing the Lake Shore reroute.


----------



## kdeschner

Sure, thank you for pointing that out.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

Trogdor said:


> Can we get this thread back to Viewliner production? There's already a thread discussing the Lake Shore reroute.


Yeah, this topic is really only applicable to this thread when talking about how/if they can add a V-II to the LSL.


----------



## R30A

A consist of:

111-43363-68020-68021-68022-520 
Was videoed today.
3 more coming in!


----------



## cpotisch

Have they been delivered? The 'Just the facts' thread says there's a video of them out in the wild today.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Have they been delivered? The 'Just the facts' thread says there's a video of them out in the wild today.


That video is probably them leaving CAF on their way to Sunnyside. They should be on 97(18)

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been delivered? The 'Just the facts' thread says there's a video of them out in the wild today.
> 
> 
> 
> That video is probably them leaving CAF on their way to Sunnyside. They should be on 97(18)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

They go to Sunnyside? I thought first stop is Hialeah?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been delivered? The 'Just the facts' thread says there's a video of them out in the wild today.
> 
> 
> 
> That video is probably them leaving CAF on their way to Sunnyside. They should be on 97(18)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They go to Sunnyside? I thought first stop is Hialeah?
Click to expand...

Where do you think they get attached to 97?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## pennyk

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been delivered? The 'Just the facts' thread says there's a video of them out in the wild today.
> 
> 
> 
> That video is probably them leaving CAF on their way to Sunnyside. They should be on 97(18)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

I will be on 97(18).


----------



## AmtrakBlue

pennyk said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been delivered? The 'Just the facts' thread says there's a video of them out in the wild today.
> 
> 
> 
> That video is probably them leaving CAF on their way to Sunnyside. They should be on 97(18)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I will be on 97(18).
Click to expand...

Get a picture before you board.





Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum


----------



## Anthony V

Trogdor said:


> Can we get this thread back to Viewliner production? There's already a thread discussing the Lake Shore reroute.


What reroute? The one through Michigan?


----------



## Lonestar648

Where is the video of the three cars?


----------



## Ryan

Anthony V said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we get this thread back to Viewliner production? There's already a thread discussing the Lake Shore reroute.
> 
> 
> 
> What reroute? The one through Michigan?
Click to expand...

No, that's a figment of the foamer imagination.

This one: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/70589-emp-serv-to-gct-lsl-nyp-suspended-other-nyp-changes-2018/


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been delivered? The 'Just the facts' thread says there's a video of them out in the wild today.
> 
> 
> 
> That video is probably them leaving CAF on their way to Sunnyside. They should be on 97(18)Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They go to Sunnyside? I thought first stop is Hialeah?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where do you think they get attached to 97?Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Click to expand...

Fair enough.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Anthony V said:


> Trogdor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can we get this thread back to Viewliner production? There's already a thread discussing the Lake Shore reroute.
> 
> 
> 
> *What reroute? The one through Michigan?*
Click to expand...


Well done, commander!


----------



## MARC Rider

Saw 3 VL2 diners sitting in WAS tacked on to the end of 97 (18)


----------



## cpotisch

MARC Rider said:


> Saw 3 VL2 diners sitting in WAS tacked on to the end of 97 (18)


So I guess they should reach HIA (is that the right code?) tomorrow. They should be finished by May 20th if everything goes well.


----------



## KnightRail

cpotisch said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 3 VL2 diners sitting in WAS tacked on to the end of 97 (18)
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess they should reach HIA (is that the right code?) tomorrow. They should be finished by May 20th if everything goes well.
Click to expand...

Wow. If your able to give us an exact date when these three will be released to revenue service can you tell us the exact day the sleepers and bag dorms are entering revenue service?


----------



## CHvision

http://www.mytwintiers.com/news/local-news/elmira-made-trains-are-now-on-track/1127530890

If this was shown

680020: Providence


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 3 VL2 diners sitting in WAS tacked on to the end of 97 (18)
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess they should reach HIA (is that the right code?) tomorrow. They should be finished by May 20th if everything goes well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow. If your able to give us an exact date when these three will be released to revenue service can you tell us the exact day the sleepers and bag dorms are entering revenue service?
Click to expand...

I didn't give an exact date. The cars have generally been spending about a month in Hialeah before completion. There's a difference between "*By* May 20th" and "*On* May 20". If the cars take as long as they usually do, I'd expect them to be finished by then. That's all.


----------



## KnightRail

cpotisch said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 3 VL2 diners sitting in WAS tacked on to the end of 97 (18)
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess they should reach HIA (is that the right code?) tomorrow. They should be finished by May 20th if everything goes well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow. If your able to give us an exact date when these three will be released to revenue service can you tell us the exact day the sleepers and bag dorms are entering revenue service?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didn't give an exact date. The cars have generally been spending about a month in Hialeah before completion. There's a difference between "*By* May 20th" and "*On* May 20". If the cars take as long as they usually do, I'd expect them to be finished by then. That's all.
Click to expand...

There's also a difference between *facts* and *opinions*. So what factual production schedule and open modification list are you basing your by May 20 opionion on? And as you say, thats if everything goes well. What if things dont go well? Anyways Im glad you are confident in the gals and guys of Hialeah.


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 3 VL2 diners sitting in WAS tacked on to the end of 97 (18)
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess they should reach HIA (is that the right code?) tomorrow. They should be finished by May 20th if everything goes well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow. If your able to give us an exact date when these three will be released to revenue service can you tell us the exact day the sleepers and bag dorms are entering revenue service?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didn't give an exact date. The cars have generally been spending about a month in Hialeah before completion. There's a difference between "*By* May 20th" and "*On* May 20". If the cars take as long as they usually do, I'd expect them to be finished by then. That's all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's also a difference between *facts* and *opinions*. So what factual production schedule and open modification list are you basing your by May 20 opionion on? And as you say, thats if everything goes well. What if things dont go well? Anyways Im glad you are confident in the gals and guys of Hialeah.
Click to expand...

I really don't want to argue here and I hope my posts aren't coming off as rude. There is nothing special about May 20th, other than that it is a little more than a month from now, and it generally takes about a month for the cars to complete. I'm not talking about any 'factual production schedules or open modification lists'.
It's like if you're going to the store and I ask you how long it will take. You tell me around 15 minutes if everything goes well. I ask you if you have any charts or math equations that prove that it takes 15 minutes to go to the store. You respond that you don't, but it just usually takes about 15 minutes.

That's all I'm saying - if it takes a normal amount of time for the cars to be finished, it think it would probably be before May 20.


----------



## cpotisch

CHvision said:


> http://www.mytwintiers.com/news/local-news/elmira-made-trains-are-now-on-track/1127530890
> 
> If this was shown
> 
> 680020: Providence


Well that article is wrong in like 20 different ways.


----------



## pennyk

I boarded 97 in WAS (as did Anderson) and took some photos of the diners while we were still in the station. I will attempt to post them..


----------



## KnightRail

pennyk said:


> I boarded 97 in WAS (as did Anderson) and took some photos of the diners while we were still in the station. I will attempt to post them..


Very nice. Thanks for sharing and enjoy your meals in Harrisburg.


----------



## cpotisch

pennyk said:


> I boarded 97 in WAS (as did Anderson) and took some photos of the diners while we were still in the station. I will attempt to post them..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3A75373B-573D-4A09-927C-600030032C6A.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B885861B-CEEC-4134-9261-057589D2E9F3.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0130D46B-502F-4D80-8F73-E89100B52961.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FB5E1EA3-E3C4-43CD-9AA6-2938D7B5F2B6.jpeg


I've got to hand it to CAF on one thing; those are some beautiful cars.


----------



## cpotisch

Is it expected that they're going to repaint all the V-Is in Phase IIIb at some point?


----------



## pennyk

KnightRail said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I boarded 97 in WAS (as did Anderson) and took some photos of the diners while we were still in the station. I will attempt to post them..
> 
> 
> 
> Very nice. Thanks for sharing and enjoy your meals in Harrisburg.
Click to expand...

Thanks


----------



## IndyLions

The Salmon is one of my favorite Amtrak meals. I’ve had good luck with it every time. And enjoy those baked potatoes while you can - not available diner lite! (All that expensive labor to stick them in the oven I guess).

Yes - that was sarcasm for all you Sheldon Coopers with broken sarcasm detectors...


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> MARC Rider said:
> 
> 
> 
> Saw 3 VL2 diners sitting in WAS tacked on to the end of 97 (18)
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess they should reach HIA (is that the right code?) tomorrow. They should be finished by May 20th if everything goes well.
Click to expand...

I don't know if the yard has a separate code for employees, but the station code for the Miami station is MIA and it is actually in Hialeah right next to the yard.


----------



## cpotisch

IndyLions said:


> The Salmon is one of my favorite Amtrak meals. I’ve had good luck with it every time. And enjoy those baked potatoes while you can - not available diner lite! (All that expensive labor to stick them in the oven I guess).
> 
> Yes - that was sarcasm for all you Sheldon Coopers with broken sarcasm detectors...


So far I've had 12 meals in V-II diners and I've loved the butternut squash risotto, sweet potato gnocchi, and buttermilk pancakes. In my experience the salmon has been good but not great.


----------



## mfastx

cpotisch said:


> Is it expected that they're going to repaint all the V-Is in Phase IIIb at some point?


One can only hope.


----------



## cpotisch

mfastx said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it expected that they're going to repaint all the V-Is in Phase IIIb at some point?
> 
> 
> 
> One can only hope.
Click to expand...

I guess they probably wouldn't repaint 62043 in Phase IIIb if they weren't gonna repaint the rest.


----------



## jis

Phase IIIb was supposed to be the Long Distance Fleet colors. So at least in theory even the Amfleet IIs should get that treatment, as should the Superliners. But then again Amtrak's motto is _vive la __différence_!. So we shall see!


----------



## cocojacoby

cpotisch said:


> pennyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I boarded 97 in WAS (as did Anderson) and took some photos of the diners while we were still in the station. I will attempt to post them..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3A75373B-573D-4A09-927C-600030032C6A.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B885861B-CEEC-4134-9261-057589D2E9F3.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 0130D46B-502F-4D80-8F73-E89100B52961.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FB5E1EA3-E3C4-43CD-9AA6-2938D7B5F2B6.jpeg
> 
> 
> 
> I've got to hand it to CAF on one thing; those are some beautiful cars.
Click to expand...

Just so nice to see a matching Amtrak consist in car shape and colors!

I do believe the "old is new again" Phase III does look really good. Looks great from a distance and exceptional on the Genesis too!


----------



## Lonestar648

Looks like the LSL is getting the VII Diners but to be used as the Sleeping Car Lounge.since no more Dining Cars on LSL.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> Looks like the LSL is getting the VII Diners but to be used as the Sleeping Car Lounge.since no more Dining Cars on LSL.


Yep. Pretty much confirmed at this point.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Phase IIIb was supposed to be the Long Distance Fleet colors. So at least in theory even the Amfleet IIs should get that treatment, as should the Superliners. But then again Amtrak's motto is _vive la __différence_!. So we shall see!


Isn't IIIb part of the whole 'Amtrak America' nonsense branding? In which case at minimum the LD Superliners (Trans-dorm, sleepers, diner, SSL) should get the repaint. But I imagine management is more preoccupied with starving their passengers than making the trains all pretty...


----------



## Ryan

Nope. When the announcement was made, it specifically said "single level long distance fleet".


----------



## lordsigma

Lonestar648 said:


> Looks like the LSL is getting the VII Diners but to be used as the Sleeping Car Lounge.since no more Dining Cars on LSL.


While I am skeptical of this new "fresh food program" thing and a part of me is sad that this is the direction things are going, using the VII as the lounge makes some sense. At least they're using the car and the fact that is fully equipped gives them a fallback plan if this new "fresh" thing doesn't work out. Using the VII would also provide the ability to provide a larger menu seasonally if there was ever an interest in that.


----------



## cpotisch

lordsigma said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the LSL is getting the VII Diners but to be used as the Sleeping Car Lounge.since no more Dining Cars on LSL.
> 
> 
> 
> While I am skeptical of this new "fresh food program" thing and a part of me is sad that this is the direction things are going, using the VII as the lounge makes some sense. At least they're using the car and the fact that is fully equipped gives them a fallback plan if this new "fresh" thing doesn't work out. Using the VII would also provide the ability to provide a larger menu seasonally if there was ever an interest in that.
Click to expand...

I second this. ViewDiners have comfortable booths, plenty of space, and plenty of Windows to enjoy the passing scenery. Out of all the cars to use as a Sleeper Lounge, these are a good choice.


----------



## TommyBNSF

jis said:


> Phase IIIb was supposed to be the Long Distance Fleet colors. So at least in theory even the Amfleet IIs should get that treatment, as should the Superliners. But then again Amtrak's motto is _vive la __différence_!. So we shall see!


At this point, I would think they probably won't repaint anything other than the V1s especially since the Amfleet 2s are supposedly one of the next things to be replaced, and perhaps the Superliner 1s not far behind. So far the only cars to get repainted into IIIb were 8400 and 62043 and those were both 2 years ago. Although with the new Chargers getting the "Amtrak Midwest" lettering on them, it seems they're still moving forward with separating the different parts of Amtrak.


----------



## IndyLions

So is it time to rename that other thread to “Viewliner First Class Class Lounge Delivery - Just the Facts” ?


----------



## Palmetto

IndyLions said:


> So is it time to rename that other thread to “Viewliner First Class Class Lounge Delivery - Just the Facts” ?


No. I believe they're being called Sleeper Lounges by Amtrak.


----------



## Lonestar648

VII Sleeper Lounge (Name)


----------



## jis

IndyLions said:


> So is it time to rename that other thread to “Viewliner First Class Class Lounge Delivery - Just the Facts” ?


The phrase “First Class” has been formally removed from the Amtrak Sleeper service a long time back. So there is no point in gratuitously trying to reintroduce in the conversation. 
The term being used is “Sleeper Lounge”.


----------



## StanJazz

First Class is still used on the menus.

Alcoholic beverages are available as an extra purchase and are not included in FIRST CLASS meal packages.


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> IndyLions said:
> 
> 
> 
> So is it time to rename that other thread to “Viewliner First Class Class Lounge Delivery - Just the Facts” ?
> 
> 
> 
> The phrase “First Class” has been formally removed from the Amtrak Sleeper service a long time back. So there is no point in gratuitously trying to reintroduce in the conversation.
> The term being used is “Sleeper Lounge”.
Click to expand...

There are some examples of Amtrak referring to sleepers as 'First Class'. One small example would be the sign that tells coach pax to stay out of the sleepers, which sometimes reads "First Class passengers only beyond this point".


----------



## cpotisch

So with three ViewDiners (turned Sleeper Lounges) going to the LSL, there will be a grand total of 11 in use. That still leaves nine spares (including 8400). Fingers crossed for the Cardinal.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IndyLions said:
> 
> 
> 
> So is it time to rename that other thread to “Viewliner First Class Class Lounge Delivery - Just the Facts” ?
> 
> 
> 
> The phrase “First Class” has been formally removed from the Amtrak Sleeper service a long time back. So there is no point in gratuitously trying to reintroduce in the conversation.
> The term being used is “Sleeper Lounge”.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are some examples of Amtrak referring to sleepers as 'First Class'. One small example would be the sign that tells coach pax to stay out of the sleepers, which sometimes reads "First Class passengers only beyond this point".
Click to expand...

Old habits and signage die hard [emoji57]

The official term is still “Sleeper Lounge” not “First Class Lounge”. The only "First Class” on Amtrak is on the Acelas.


----------



## Lonestar648

Probably the old signs remain until they are worn away or are replaced when the item it is attached to is replace or overhauled.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Lonestar648 said:


> Probably the old signs remain until they are worn away or are replaced when the item it is attached to is replace or overhauled.


Where's my sharpie.


----------



## PeepersK

What are the possibilities that Amtrak stops the order for V2s with these diners, er, first-class lounges, and doesn't receive the dorms and sleepers? I am thinking about this with regards to Amtrak's coming order for single-level cars to replace the Amfleet Is (and Amfleet IIs?). The vision for them is to be unlike anything else Amtrak has ever had before. So I have to wonder if they will be DMUs and EMUs? And, if so, wouldn't the Lake Shore and Capitol -- the two shortest-distance long-distance trains in the system -- be potential candidates for this equipment? If these were equipped with tilt mechanisms, the Capitol and Lake Shore would be able to travel more quickly, possibly CHI-East Coast as day trains.


----------



## PVD

Probably not possible since the shells are almost definitely fabricated and the interior component modules contracted for (if not already built). Other component systems have probably also been signed for (like trucks, brakes, a/c units etc)


----------



## PeepersK

Any way to confirm the status of the remainder of the V2 order? I suspect someone here knows for certain.


----------



## Ziv

Peepers, cancelling the order at this point due to relatively recent developments would be pretty agile management. Amtrak and agile aren't two words I often think of together. Your thoughts on cancelling the remainder of the order are possible, due to CAF losing money on each of them, supposedly. But I just don't see it happening especially since the sleepers are the cars that will actually increase Amtraks revenue. But I think there are a lot of people on this site that know a lot more about this than I do.

JMHO.


----------



## PeepersK

Sleepers do produce revenues but they also produce operating costs well in excess of them. I recall seeing the breakdowns in operating costs and revenues per train-mile for a sleeping car from about 10 years ago and those operating ratios were pretty bad compared to coach.


----------



## Ziv

Peepers, that is just about the opposite of what I have read over the years. Are we defining net profit differently?


----------



## PVD

Sleeping car customers will choose meals delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes or eaten in a private café or lounge car and entrees such as:

Why do so many people read that as the majority will all of a sudden eat in their room as opposed to a reminder that in room service is an option?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

PVD said:


> Sleeping car customers will choose meals delivered to their Bedrooms or Roomettes or eaten in a private café or lounge car and entrees such as:
> 
> Why do so many people read that as the majority will all of a sudden eat in their room as opposed to a reminder that in room service is an option?


Because reading comprehension took a nose dive when texting & internet became the norm.


----------



## jis

Because the more reasonable interpretation does not jive with ones desire to blow steam about anything and everything?



Why worry about possible ambiguities when one can choose ones favorite interpretation to make something that one does not like as bad as possible? of course that also does wonders to ones credibility, but so what?


----------



## Thirdrail7

PeepersK said:


> What are the possibilities that Amtrak stops the order for V2s with these diners, er, first-class lounges, and doesn't receive the dorms and sleepers? I am thinking about this with regards to Amtrak's coming order for single-level cars to replace the Amfleet Is (and Amfleet IIs?). The vision for them is to be unlike anything else Amtrak has ever had before. So I have to wonder if they will be DMUs and EMUs? And, if so, wouldn't the Lake Shore and Capitol -- the two shortest-distance long-distance trains in the system -- be potential candidates for this equipment? If these were equipped with tilt mechanisms, the Capitol and Lake Shore would be able to travel more quickly, possibly CHI-East Coast as day trains.


I haven't heard anything but tt the sluggish pace they are arriving, I'd say the bag dorms would be in the biggest danger. As staffing is eliminated and baggage lite plans falter, I'd say they are expendable.

Even if something happened to LD trains, the sleepers could be used as day rooms. I think that would be cool for a BOS-RNK train or the Palmetto. Maybe even the Vermonter.


----------



## neroden

PeepersK said:


> Sleepers do produce revenues but they also produce operating costs well in excess of them. I recall seeing the breakdowns in operating costs and revenues per train-mile for a sleeping car from about 10 years ago and those operating ratios were pretty bad compared to coach.


This is entirely false. I ran the numbers a few years ago (much less than 10). On the *Eastern, single-level* trains, sleepers produce more revenues than costs at this point. On the LSL in particular, they have a better operating ratio than coaches, though the same is apparently not true on the Florida trains.

(Dining cars are another matter. We'll see how much ticket revenue is lost due to the lack of breakfast on the LSL, but they certainly don't cover their costs except in terms of attracting customers.)

(And the bilevel trains are much worse financially; the sleepers may actually lose money there, due to much lower ticket prices.)


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> (And the bilevel trains are much worse financially; the sleepers may actually lose money there, due to much lower ticket prices.)


Indeed. Its crazy how cheap some of the cross country trains are. For example, two people in a roomette on the Sunset/Eagle from Pomona (the second stop on the line) to Chicago is about $580. Thats only about $40 more than the cost of two people in a roomette going end to end on the Meteor. But the former is a three night, eight meal, 61 hour ride that that covered more than 2700 miles. I cant imagine how they make much (or any) money on that.


----------



## KmH

i can imagine how they can make money on that.

Some of the roomettes will sell for as much as double that $580. And isn't that $580 only if the passenger books a SL sleeper out of Pomona and changes sleeper cars in SAS to a TE sleeper?

Some roomettes will sell for 50% more than the $580.

Looks like Texas Eagle sleeper costs Pomona to CHI are higher.


----------



## cpotisch

KmH said:


> i can imagine how they can make money on that.
> 
> Some of the roomettes will sell for as much as double that $580. And isn't that $580 only if the passenger books a SL sleeper out of Pomona and changes sleeper cars in SAS to a TE sleeper?
> 
> Some roomettes will sell for 50% more than the $580.
> 
> Looks like Texas Eagle sleeper costs Pomona to CHI are higher.


Nope, the $580 is for the through sleeper. You don't need to switch at SAS. Though I will admit that you have to book pretty far in advance or very close in to get that fare. However, the next bucket up is about $690, is pretty common, and considering the length of the trip, still isn't bad.

All of that said, I feel like this is straying pretty far from the V-II discussion.


----------



## niemi24s

Here's some factual fare information for the Texas Eagle (422) from POS to CHI:

• Low bucket coach is $163

• Roomette buckets are $284, $403, $512, $631 and $747

So depending on the travel date, two adults in a Roomette could cost anywhere from $610 to $1073 before any discount.


----------



## Ryan

I'm not sure how that's relevant to Viewliner Production and Delivery.


----------



## PRR 60

Ryan said:


> I'm not sure how that's relevant to Viewliner Production and Delivery.


It has nothing to do with Viewliner Production and Delivery, and future posts about sleeper costs in this topic will be removed.


----------



## jis

PRR 60 said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how that's relevant to Viewliner Production and Delivery.
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with Viewliner Production and Delivery, and future posts about sleeper costs in this topic will be removed.
Click to expand...

The current ones could be moved to niemi24s' forever running thread on cost buckets and what not too


----------



## Lonestar648

When the VII Diners go thru Hialeah is there any modifications that will be made to make the VII a Sleeper Lounge Car?


----------



## Palmetto

Yes, they are replacing all the bench-style seating and tables with lounge chairs, and a sofa or too.



Seriously, though, sitting at a table is not my idea of a lounge. Think Metropolitan Lounge seating.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

Lonestar648 said:


> When the VII Diners go thru Hialeah is there any modifications that will be made to make the VII a Sleeper Lounge Car?


There are some modifications that happen after delivery, such as WiFi installation, but no major interior changes.

Is there a future for an Atlantic Parlour Car? Probably not...


----------



## jis

I heard an interesting piece of information at the RPA Meeting.

Apparently CAF has already paid up all the penalties and is not legally bound to deliver anything further. Apparently Amtrak is coaxing and cajoling them with some additional enticement to complete delivery of the remaining order, since Amtrak has already got a lot of sunk money in the modules and what not.

This raises the questions as to how long Amtrak would be willing to continue to do so.

If this is true, it is for sure a cockup of epic proportions.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Epic false information


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Epic false information


Maybe it is. But I would tend to trust an Amtrak person who was specifically there to talk about Amtrak Passenger Service, over you.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Ouch, tough day at work?

Not the first former to have a Amtrak officer lie to them.


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ouch, tough day at work?
> 
> Not the first former to have a Amtrak officer lie to them.


Do you have any evidence that he was lying or are you just sharing a feeling?

Of course either way my original fear remains legitimate, since even if it is not true, one motivation for saying so would be to prepare the ground for discontinuing taking any further delivery. I am not saying that that is necessarily the case, but I remain apprehensive either way.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Understood.

I however will wait for exhibit B. You know from the lawsuit from Amtrak vs CAF. The lawsuit in which CAF states Amtrak keep changing the specs of the railcars which caused redesign issues, delays, and increased cost. The lawsuit in which Amtrak charges CAF with poor manufacture and management that result in a multi year delays.

The lawsuit that will be file after the order is delivered, so Amtrak and CAF have a reason to keep each other on this path.

Unless you think Amtrak has fully payed for these undelivered railcars. Or CAF has a maximum late fee clause.

.


----------



## jis

I don’t think anything and have absolutely no basis to do so. I was merely reporting what I heard and you appeared to have a severe reaction to it based apparently on just feelings. That’s OK. I was just exploring if there was anything more to it. Apparently not. [emoji57]


----------



## Ziv

Jis, I noted the "if this is true" disclaimer on your original report, so I can see that you aren't sure that this is truly the case, just that someone said that it may be. I really want to see the new sleepers more than anything else but any new rolling stock would be welcome. Amtrak needs to expand to thrive, stasis isn't doing it any good.

It is incredible that the Amtrak management is somehow tracking the US government on procurement woes. The KC46, the F35, the LCS, the EFV all had problematic development processes, and now the VLII CAF debacle follows the Nippon Sharyo disaster. Getting the equipment they order in good working order seems to be a problem for this government and its affiliated quasi public corporations like Amtrak.

In the future, I hope Amtrak follows Brightlines example and orders relatively off the shelf designs. Or simply makes tweeks to existing designs to lighten them by a small amount instead of a large amount, because it sounds like the design requirement stipulating the SLII weight reduction was one of the major reasons it failed the crush test.

Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!



jis said:


> I don’t think anything and have absolutely no basis to do so. I was merely reporting what I heard and you appeared to have a severe reaction to it based apparently on just feelings. That’s OK. I was just exploring if there was anything more to it. Apparently not. [emoji57]


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Ziv said:


> Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!


The fake news take its first breath of air, and is now alive...


----------



## jis

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!
> 
> 
> 
> The fake news take its first breath of air, and is now alive...
Click to expand...

Note that even if what was said is true, it does not imply that the Sleepers won't be delivered.

This is one reason that I tend to shy away from reporting things here. Some people have terrible comprehension of English and go off on a tangent.


----------



## Ziv

Not sure what your point is. Hearing something you disagree with doesn't make it fake news. Jis noted that it was simply a statement by an Amtrak employee at an RPA meeting. He didn't say that it was necessarily so. If I had to rely on anyone for information regarding Amtrak Jis would be right up there with ThirdRail as people who have posted info that has subsequently turned out to be correct. I am not speaking for Jis, just giving my thoughts on what I hope for with regards to CAF.

So, as I stated before, hopefully we will see CAF continue to deliver VLII's in the months to come. How you thought that was (or was related to) fake news...



Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully we will see that CAF continues to deliver VLII's in the months to come!
> 
> 
> 
> The fake news take its first breath of air, and is now alive...
Click to expand...


----------



## PeepersK

What's the need for the V2 sleepers and dorms? Neither CAF or Amtrak want them. For that matter what's the need for the diners? As first class lounges, what revenue will they produce? What costs?


----------



## Trogdor

PeepersK said:


> What's the need for the V2 sleepers and dorms? Neither CAF or Amtrak want them. For that matter what's the need for the diners? As first class lounges, what revenue will they produce? What costs?


Notwithstanding any recent changes in company management or long-term planning, there were two main purposes to the Viewliner II order:

1) Retire the pre-Amtrak Heritage fleet, which was becoming more and more expensive to maintain. This included baggage cars on all long-distance trains and dining cars on the single-level trains

2) Increase the overall capacity of the fleet, as sleepers were often sold out during peak periods, and on the eastern trains, too much revenue sleeper capacity was being used by the crew (since the Heritage dorm cars had already been retired many years earlier). It would also give slack to the existing Viewliner sleeper fleet which didnt have too much spare capacity and was/is in need of a good refurbishment program after a couple decades of continuous service.

One can argue whether the plan (inside Amtrak there is often more than one plan) also included potential conversion of one or two Superliner routes to single-level (no spare LD coach or lounge capacity to do so) in order to provide more capacity for Western trains.

I dont think its fair to say Amtrak doesnt want the new sleepers. Its honestly hard to say what Amtrak does or doesnt want.


----------



## CHvision

I'm not sure where I can post this (as in if this is the right place): but, the Crescent is now a regular Silver Meteor consist (minus Amfleet between Viewliners).


----------



## GBNorman

Funny how with the elimination of full service Dining on two trains and casting the V2D's into some kind of "make work" role on the Lake Shore, who really cares when the final six (Albany, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Springfield, Tallahassee) enter revenue service?

With the delivery of the three cars observed by Mx. Anderson and Ms. PennyK, there are now enough cars on the property to assign them to the "New England States" (oka 448-449), and have a protect car at each end point.

I must wonder to what extent the three cars "run around" during the intended "by the numbers" delivery plan are flawed. Lips appear to be sealed on that subject.

Finally, the first car, 00 Albany, was a prototype and by the time it is delivered, it could well be in a configuration other than for full service Dining.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

CHvision said:


> I'm not sure where I can post this (as in if this is the right place): but, the Crescent is now a regular Silver Meteor consist (minus Amfleet between Viewliners).


The Crescent no longer has business class, therefore that Amfleet coach is no longer located between the sleepers and baggage car. The Meteor does operate with a third sleeper.


----------



## jis

That is what I was wondering. Surely the Crescent didn't suddenly get a third Sleeper. Did it?


----------



## Ryan

GBNorman said:


> who really cares when the final six (Albany, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Springfield, Tallahassee) enter revenue service?


I most certainly do. I wouldn't cast their deployment as "make work", I'm on record as stating that the VLIIs would make excellent lounge cars ever since my first meal in the 8400.


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> Finally, the first car, 00 Albany, was a prototype and by the time it is delivered, it could well be in a configuration other than for full service Dining.


The diners have a very different frame and completely different interior than that of the baggage cars, sleepers, or bag dorms. Can't imagine it would be worth it to remove/add windows, take out the entire interior, add vestibules, etc.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, the first car, 00 Albany, was a prototype and by the time it is delivered, it could well be in a configuration other than for full service Dining.
> 
> 
> 
> The diners have a very different frame and completely different interior than that of the baggage cars, sleepers, or bag dorms. Can't imagine it would be worth it to remove/add windows, take out the entire interior, add vestibules, etc.
Click to expand...

I think he meant the interior, not the body. Like maybe remove the kitchen and put in chairs, ala SSLs


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, the first car, 00 Albany, was a prototype and by the time it is delivered, it could well be in a configuration other than for full service Dining.
> 
> 
> 
> The diners have a very different frame and completely different interior than that of the baggage cars, sleepers, or bag dorms. Can't imagine it would be worth it to remove/add windows, take out the entire interior, add vestibules, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think he meant the interior, not the body. Like maybe remove the kitchen and put in chairs, ala SSLs
Click to expand...

Fair enough. But to that point, and although I like the idea of a V-II SSL, if all they did is replace the kitchen with seating, you would have a weird layout with a bunch of chairs against a windowless wall, across from a single row of windows. That would sort of defeat the purpose of an SSL, at least for half the car.

They _could_ cut holes in the shell and make it a double row of windows for that half, but obviously that would involve a significant amount of work. And since Mr. Norman's thinking was that they would just change the configuration of 68000, since it's a prototype, Amtrak would only have one of these single-level-ex-diner-ViewSightseer cars in the system. Can't think of much of a use for that.


----------



## cpotisch

My point is that while I agree with Ryan that ViewDiners would make great lounges, I just don't think it would be worth it to remove the kitchens and screw with the layout just for that.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> My point is that while I agree with Ryan that ViewDiners would make great lounges, I just don't think it would be worth it to remove the kitchens and screw with the layout just for that.


And what happens if the way the winds blow changes in two years after Anderson departs? For now that money is better spent on SOGR I think, rather than fiddling with layouts.


----------



## Palmetto

Ryan said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> who really cares when the final six (Albany, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Springfield, Tallahassee) enter revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> I most certainly do. I wouldn't cast their deployment as "make work", I'm on record as stating that the VLIIs would make excellent lounge cars ever since my first meal in the 8400.
Click to expand...

Curious here, Ryan: would you share with us what your vision is of the interior of the diner turned lounge car? As for me, booths with benches wouldn't do it.


----------



## cpotisch

Palmetto said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> who really cares when the final six (Albany, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Springfield, Tallahassee) enter revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> I most certainly do. I wouldn't cast their deployment as "make work", I'm on record as stating that the VLIIs would make excellent lounge cars ever since my first meal in the 8400.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Curious here, Ryan: would you share with us what your vision is of the interior of the diner turned lounge car? As for me, booths with benches wouldn't do it.
Click to expand...

The current un-modified ViewDiner layout is still infinitely better than the Amfleets, even with the booths.


----------



## Ryan

Essentially, that. Perhaps some reconfiguration to make the kitchen area more suitable for a cafe attendant to work a counter (install cash register, etc), but yeah. Booths and tables in a nice looking car with good lighting and visibility are way better than booths and tables in a cave.


----------



## GBNorman

Mr. Ryan, I think you are "on track" with your suggested reconfiguration of a V2D. There are six "stations" in the car. Three stay tables, and the other three become "banquets" and/or Lounge seats. The car as constructed is already a "Sightseer of sorts".

With no more on board food preparation, the Kitchen could be cut back and make room for a Conductors' office, i.e. no more setting up shop at a table.


----------



## KnightRail

More important than the physical equipment used on a long distance cafe is the actual menu. The CEO was recently asked, Will there be an upgrade to the quality of café products on the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited as part of the elimination of the dining car? Response was, Yes. All of the food offerings will be higher quality.


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> More important than the physical equipment used on a long distance cafe is the actual menu. The CEO was recently asked, Will there be an upgrade to the quality of café products on the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited as part of the elimination of the dining car? Response was, Yes. All of the food offerings will be higher quality.


With the current surplus of V-II diners, would it be possible for the LSL to operate with another ViewDiner to the cafe car on the LSL? So you would still have the sleeper lounge, but different V-II would operate as the cafe car. This obviously (as was mentioned above) would be a much nicer place to relax than in an AmCan, but they could also utilize the kitchen to provide higher quality meals.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KnightRail said:


> More important than the physical equipment used on a long distance cafe is the actual menu. The CEO was recently asked, Will there be an upgrade to the quality of café products on the Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited as part of the elimination of the dining car? Response was, Yes. All of the food offerings will be higher quality.


Well, that will irk some "first class" pax - that the "lowly" coach pax will have food as good as theirs.


----------



## Ryan

We have a surplus of ViewDiners?


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> We have a surplus of ViewDiners?


They'll have 19 cars ready for use by the end of the month. And most likely a couple more will have been delivered. Perhaps surplus is an exaggeration, but they certain aren't running low.


----------



## Ryan

OK, so we don’t have one now. Glad we’re on the same page.

I wouldn’t expect a ViewDiner in cafe service to serve any different food than the standard cafe menu. That said, it’s clear there are other changes on the horizon, so any speculation at this point will have little to no predictive value.


----------



## Ziv

What? Speculation will have no predictive value? 

That may be true, but curtailing speculation on this site would mean that this thread would have had just 10 or 12 pages instead of its current 91 pages. ;-)

I am a bit of a newby here, but sometimes the speculation aspect is all that there is to talk about since Amtrak is giving us so little.



Ryan said:


> OK, so we don’t have one now. Glad we’re on the same page.
> 
> I wouldn’t expect a ViewDiner in cafe service to serve any different food than the standard cafe menu. That said, it’s clear there are other changes on the horizon, so any speculation at this point will have little to no predictive value.


----------



## GBNorman

cpotisch said:


> They'll have 19 cars ready for use by the end of the month...Perhaps surplus is an exaggeration, but they certain aren't running low.


Concur:

19-20 4 cars

97-98 4 cars

448-449 4 cars

SSY protect 1

BOS protect 1

CHI protect 1

NOL protect 1

HIA protect 1

Shops HIA BEE 2 cars

Think that makes 19

Nothing has come to anyone's attention to suggest any difficulties with delivery with 23 Springfield and 24 Tallahassee. When "Son of Summer from Hell" is over and 48-49 resumes service, there will no longer be need for a BOS protect and only three cars are needed for an NYP-CHI 48-49.


----------



## PVD

The current longe car on the LSL is also BC


----------



## PerRock

Palmetto said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> who really cares when the final six (Albany, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Springfield, Tallahassee) enter revenue service?
> 
> 
> 
> I most certainly do. I wouldn't cast their deployment as "make work", I'm on record as stating that the VLIIs would make excellent lounge cars ever since my first meal in the 8400.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Curious here, Ryan: would you share with us what your vision is of the interior of the diner turned lounge car? As for me, booths with benches wouldn't do it.
Click to expand...

Personally if I were converting I'd probably re-do most of the interior & style the layout a bit after some of the BR food service cars. It'd be more aligned with a cafe then a lounge...

Essentially, leave most of the booths. A small section you take out for a standing-room area. As for the food service area, the part closest to the dining area gets converted into counter service section, with the rear portion still being a kitchen os sorts being able to provide select hot meals (hot bacon/sausage egg sandwhich, omelet, etc. for breakfast; essentially anything cheap & easy you can cook on a griddle/grill)

peter


----------



## Lonestar648

I somehow think not a lot money is going to be spent until Amtrak management has figured out the final plan of what they are doing with F&B. Until then, I would expect just minor adjustments.


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> They'll have 19 cars ready for use by the end of the month...Perhaps surplus is an exaggeration, but they certain aren't running low.
> 
> 
> 
> Concur:19-20 4 cars
> 
> 97-98 4 cars
> 
> 448-449 4 cars
> 
> SSY protect 1
> 
> BOS protect 1
> 
> CHI protect 1
> 
> NOL protect 1
> 
> HIA protect 1
> 
> Shops HIA BEE 2 cars
> 
> Think that makes 19
> 
> Nothing has come to anyone's attention to suggest any difficulties with delivery with 23 Springfield and 24 Tallahassee. When "Son of Summer from Hell" is over and 48-49 resumes service, there will no longer be need for a BOS protect and only three cars are needed for an NYP-CHI 48-49.
Click to expand...

Do they really keep spare V-IIs at all five termini? Thought the main locations are Sunnyside and Hialeah...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> They'll have 19 cars ready for use by the end of the month...Perhaps surplus is an exaggeration, but they certain aren't running low.
> 
> 
> 
> Concur:19-20 4 cars
> 
> 97-98 4 cars
> 
> 448-449 4 cars
> 
> SSY protect 1
> 
> BOS protect 1
> 
> CHI protect 1
> 
> NOL protect 1
> 
> HIA protect 1
> 
> Shops HIA BEE 2 cars
> 
> Think that makes 19
> 
> Nothing has come to anyone's attention to suggest any difficulties with delivery with 23 Springfield and 24 Tallahassee. When "Son of Summer from Hell" is over and 48-49 resumes service, there will no longer be need for a BOS protect and only three cars are needed for an NYP-CHI 48-49.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do they really keep spare V-IIs at all five termini? Thought the main locations are Sunnyside and Hialeah...
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't they? If a diner breaks down on 19 do you think the pax on 20 should be without a diner for the trip back north?


----------



## PVD

I thought the LSL was 3 sets....


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> I thought the LSL was 3 sets....


It normally is, but he was saying that there are currently four Boston sets. But thinking about it, Im not sure how you could have more of one section than other, so dont there have to be three no matter what?


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

cpotisch said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the LSL was 3 sets....
> 
> 
> 
> It normally is, but he was saying that there are currently four Boston sets. But thinking about it, Im not sure how you could have more of one section than other, so dont there have to be three no matter what?
Click to expand...

Given sufficiently different runtimes, there is no reason that two sections of the same route couldn't run with a different number of trainsets. However, both sections of the Lake Shore Limited only require three trainsets since they are able to make a same-day turn in Chicago but not New York or Boston.


----------



## Trogdor

I think more than a few of us are lost in this conversation, and struggling to tell whether folks are discussing current Viewliber diner allocation (which runs on two trains, using a total of 8 cars, plus whatever protect equipment) and potential future allocation, which may or may not include the Lake Shore Limited (3 sets, regardless of BOS or NYP turn), and for which there has been no indication that one will be included on the Boston-only train during this upcoming summer.


----------



## cpotisch

Trogdor said:


> I think more than a few of us are lost in this conversation, and struggling to tell whether folks are discussing current Viewliber diner allocation (which runs on two trains, using a total of 8 cars, plus whatever protect equipment) and potential future allocation, which may or may not include the Lake Shore Limited (3 sets, regardless of BOS or NYP turn), and for which there has been no indication that one will be included on the Boston-only train during this upcoming summer.


At the moment, we're talking about the latter. A few posts ago, we were talking about the former...


----------



## neroden

jis said:


> I heard an interesting piece of information at the RPA Meeting.
> 
> Apparently CAF has already paid up all the penalties and is not legally bound to deliver anything further. Apparently Amtrak is coaxing and cajoling them with some additional enticement to complete delivery of the remaining order, since Amtrak has already got a lot of sunk money in the modules and what not.
> 
> This raises the questions as to how long Amtrak would be willing to continue to do so.
> 
> If this is true, it is for sure a cockup of epic proportions.


Good God. You'd think CAF would want to deliver the cars rather than leaving them lying around. The real question is why Amtrak didn't demand that the sleepers be delivered first, since they're the revenue generators.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard an interesting piece of information at the RPA Meeting.
> 
> Apparently CAF has already paid up all the penalties and is not legally bound to deliver anything further. Apparently Amtrak is coaxing and cajoling them with some additional enticement to complete delivery of the remaining order, since Amtrak has already got a lot of sunk money in the modules and what not.
> 
> This raises the questions as to how long Amtrak would be willing to continue to do so.
> 
> If this is true, it is for sure a cockup of epic proportions.
> 
> 
> 
> Good God. You'd think CAF would want to deliver the cars rather than leaving them lying around. The real question is why Amtrak didn't demand that the sleepers be delivered first, since they're the revenue generators.
Click to expand...

I think because the Heritage cars were on the they're last legs, they wanted to replace the diners and baggage cars. I do feel like sleepers should have come before bag-dorms, though. The bag-dorms don't generate revenue, and aren't replacing any old cars, so in my mind it would have made most sense to finish with them...


----------



## stappend

The Bag dorms will indirectly generate revenue by getting the crew out of revenue space in the current VL1 sleepers. Just for the LSL, 6 crew * $500 per room * 2 trains *365 days = ~$2.2M.


----------



## cpotisch

stappend said:


> The Bag dorms will indirectly generate revenue by getting the crew out of revenue space in the current VL1 sleepers.


If they add a V-II sleeper to a train, and allocate six roomettes to the crew, you still get five roomettes, two bedrooms, and an accessible bedroom for revenue passengers. Add a bag-dorm and you don't have any revenue rooms.


----------



## stappend

Adding cars has operational costs, adding a bag dorm, they drop the current bag, or on the LSL one of them, and get extra rooms.


----------



## Ziv

I hear you on the additional costs, stappend, but would the additional revenue that the additional 5 roomettes and 2 bedrooms (of a sleeper vs. a bag-dorm) brings be more than the additional costs? It seems like it would be.

The only time a bag-dorm would make sense is if you didn't have enough baggage cars, and the bag dorm allowed you to have your cake and eat it too, or so it seems to me.

I really wish that the CAF order was going to be bringing the additional sleepers into the fold sooner, rather than later.



stappend said:


> Adding cars has operational costs, adding a bag dorm, they drop the current bag, or on the LSL one of them, and get extra rooms.


----------



## Lonestar648

You could use the BagDorm if you have number of cars restriction by dropping the bag car. This is unusual so again limited use of the bag dorms unless you have another use for the bag cars. Or you do not want two full bag cars on one train.


----------



## stappend

Not sure what it costs Amtrak to operate a car, but if you assume they are making 75% off the PV cars, then it costs $0.82 per mile, or just under a $1000 for one direction on the LSL. Using the logic above, this is likely why the original order was changed to reduce the number of bag dorms. With the LSL already being a long train and having 2 bags, someone must have felt it made more sense to swap a bag for the bag/dorm. The Cardinal was stated as the other train to get one, not sure of the reasoning process there, since it doesn't have a 2nd bag or a diner staff. Which made me realize the LSL will soon not have kitchen staff either reducing the number of people needing rooms. In a way because the procurement process has taken so long, needs have changed and Amtrak is making do with what they have on order, even if its not a perfect fit.


----------



## PVD

Keep in mind that adding a full sleeper may add more rooms, but it also adds an additional staff person. getting rooms back for sale in revenue cars does not. Also, a business wants to add supply primarily to maximize yield, too great a supply can drive down prices to the point that you may be carrying more passengers, but not making more money.


----------



## Ziv

I have to admit that part of my rationale for more sleeping cars is reflected in your comment. If there is a larger supply of sleeping cars, I have a better chance of getting low bucket rates when I want to travel. But it isn't all bad, given how relatively quickly sleepers sell up to top bucket most of the time (they don't seem to sell out as often but they do get close) it seems like Amtrak could use quite a few more sleepers while still maintaining a good return on investment. And I can get my Empire Builder trip at low bucket or 2nd low bucket. It is all good!

I think if the sleeper supply remains too high, they would just put a sleeper onto a siding for a week or two and get both cleaning and maintenance done.



PVD said:


> Keep in mind that adding a full sleeper may add more rooms, but it also adds an additional staff person. getting rooms back for sale in revenue cars does not. Also, a business wants to add supply primarily to maximize yield, too great a supply can drive down prices to the point that you may be carrying more passengers, but not making more money.


----------



## PVD

It is also part of why I usually end up on a NER to the CL to get to Chicago for a connecting leg. LSL is almost always higher, and often not available.


----------



## KnightRail

NASHVILLE is headed from Washington to Boston tonight/Monday AM. Let the Sleeper Lounge preparations begin.


----------



## jis

Training for Southampton Street folks for handling the LSL?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> Training for Southampton Street folks for handling the LSL?


Can't be. We all know that the LSL will never get a new diner. ;p

Of course, it will be just in time for the switch from diner to sleeper lounge.


----------



## Thirdrail7

jis said:


> Training for Southampton Street folks for handling the LSL?


Indeed. It will be for training. Once they are done with it, one will go to CHI. When the LSL reroute occurs, there will be 5 committed to the operation. 3 in the sets, with a protect in CHI and BOS. NOL, NYP and HIA will keep their protects as well.


----------



## PRR 60

Discussion of the Lake Shore Limited, additional cars, and platform lengths has been split into a new topic: Lake Shore Limited and Train Length Issues


----------



## Ryan

Thirdrail7 said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Training for Southampton Street folks for handling the LSL?
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. It will be for training. Once they are done with it, one will go to CHI. When the LSL reroute occurs, there will be 5 committed to the operation. 3 in the sets, with a protect in CHI and BOS. NOL, NYP and HIA will keep their protects as well.
Click to expand...

That can’t be true, Trainz Magazine says there are 57 Viewliner Diners sitting in Miami rusting away.


----------



## cpotisch

Ok, so last month I said that the three diners should be ready by May 20th. Does anyone know if they are?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Ok, so last month I said that the three diners should be ready by May 20th. Does anyone know if they are?


If they were, TR7 would have hinted about it, right?


----------



## cpotisch

Not a new batch. The ones delivered last month: 68020-22.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Not a new batch. The ones delivered last month: 68020-22.


In that case, TR7 or AmtrakLKL will let us know when any of them are released in the wild. These guys/gals are dependable, so no need to keep asking.


----------



## jis

Mom! Are we there yet?


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Ok, so last month I said that the three diners should be ready by May 20th. Does anyone know if they are?





cpotisch said:


> Not a new batch. The ones delivered last month: 68020-22.


Two of them deadheaded on 98(19).


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so last month I said that the three diners should be ready by May 20th. Does anyone know if they are?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a new batch. The ones delivered last month: 68020-22.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two of them deadheaded on 98(19).
Click to expand...

So they’re at Sunnyside now? And are ready for service?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so last month I said that the three diners should be ready by May 20th. Does anyone know if they are?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a new batch. The ones delivered last month: 68020-22.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two of them deadheaded on 98(19).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So they’re at Sunnyside now? And are ready for service?
Click to expand...

Or heading to Chicago for training.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so last month I said that the three diners should be ready by May 20th. Does anyone know if they are?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a new batch. The ones delivered last month: 68020-22.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Two of them deadheaded on 98(19).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So they’re at Sunnyside now? And are ready for service?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or heading to Chicago for training.
Click to expand...

They are not in SSYD. I think one is headed for CHI as Blue mentioned and the other is heading for BOS.


----------



## cpotisch

Do you think they'll bother marking the Sleeper Lounges as such? Or is that not worth the trouble and the cars will still be marked as diners?


----------



## lordsigma

cpotisch said:


> Do you think they'll bother marking the Sleeper Lounges as such? Or is that not worth the trouble and the cars will still be marked as diners?


Would seem to me it would make sense not to because then the cars are interchangeable with the diners on the SM and Crescent (presuming the same thing doesn't happen to those two trains also of course.)


----------



## twropr

A fan sighted Providence and Raleigh a few days ago on #98. Is Richmond still being prepped at Hialeah?

Andy


----------



## looshi

Deadhead V2 diner on 29 today. I think it was Providence.


----------



## jis

Going to Chicago for training for induction to LSL.


----------



## cpotisch

10 days left. Seems like Providence, Raleigh, and Richmond are all going to start off on the Lake Shore. Wonder if _that's_ why CAF delivered three last month...


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> 10 days left. Seems like Providence, Raleigh, and Richmond are all going to start off on the Lake Shore. Wonder if _that's_ why CAF delivered three last month...


Umm...no.


----------



## twropr

On the 22nd CAPITOL LIMITED #29 took diner 68022 Richmond to Chicago. Should be interesting to see where it goes from there.

Andy


----------



## AmtrakBlue

twropr said:


> On the 22nd CAPITOL LIMITED #29 took diner 68022 Richmond to Chicago. Should be interesting to see where it goes from there.
> 
> Andy


Most likely will stay there a while while both onboard crew and ground crews become familiar with it. Then it will probably go on the LSL.


----------



## daybeers

In a meeting with RPA President Jim Mathews, Richard Anderson said the diners parked in Hialeah are "awaiting parts and modification." From this article:



> Management hopes to get the new-build CAF diners now accumulating in Florida out on the road and into service soon, but Gardner reports that those 11 diners now parked in Hialeah are awaiting parts and modification. Once they are completed, they can go into service.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Even after they are delivered, these CAF diners have problems. Looks like they may be spending more time in the shops than on the road.


----------



## cpotisch

MikefromCrete said:


> Even after they are delivered, these CAF diners have problems. Looks like they may be spending more time in the shops than on the road.


Once they've entered service, I feel like they've been pretty reliable. But that said, we're going form the Heritage diners, which is a pretty low bar.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

> Management hopes to get the new-build CAF diners now accumulating in Florida out on the road and into service soon, but Gardner reports that those 11 diners now parked in Hialeah are awaiting parts and modification. Once they are completed, they can go into service.


Good spin nobody cant argue with this statement. Maybe that the point...


----------



## KnightRail

daybeers said:


> In a meeting with RPA President Jim Mathews, Richard Anderson said the diners parked in Hialeah are "awaiting parts and modification." From this article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Management hopes to get the new-build CAF diners now accumulating in Florida out on the road and into service soon, but Gardner reports that those 11 diners now parked in Hialeah are awaiting parts and modification. Once they are completed, they can go into service.
Click to expand...

While there may be 11 diners that need to be cycled through modifications in Hialeah at some point, there are certainly not 11 diners parked. Any information saying there are many diners stored, parked, or out of service is total fake news. There is actually only one(1) currently in Hialeah not in a consist. Others are in consists, deployed as Protects in New York or New Orleans, or are standing by in Boston or Chicago to be inserted into Lake Shore Limited sets come June 1st.


----------



## Ryan

That number never sat right with me. By my count, there are 16 delivered and in service? If there were 11 of them parked, we'd be hearing of the Meteor and Crescent going out without dining cars, but I've not heard anything of the sort.


----------



## GBNorman

Nineteen have been delivered, six to go:

00 Albany

09 Concord

10 Dover

11 Frankfort

23 Springfield

24 Tallahassee

That should suffice for 19-20, 448-449, 87-88, spares at BOS NYP CHI NOL MIA, and still two left over to "sun themselves" at HIA.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> That number never sat right with me. By my count, there are 16 delivered and in service? If there were 11 of them parked, we'd be hearing of the Meteor and Crescent going out without dining cars, but I've not heard anything of the sort.


19 have been delivered. 18 or 19 are ready for service. 16 have entered service.


----------



## chrsjrcj

68006 is deadheading on the rear of 97-26.


----------



## Lonestar648

is the mod converting the DC to SL Lounge?


----------



## Ryan

No.


----------



## cpotisch

Sounds like they don't want to bother modifying the diners for Sleeper Lounge purposes, especially since doing so would mean that they'd have to keep the LSL ViewDiners in a separate pool from the Crescent/Meteor ViewDiners. I really don't see why any modifications would need to be made to the diners for use as a Sleeper Lounge anyway. From an equipment standpoint, the job is pretty much the same.


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> Sounds like they don't want to bother modifying the diners for Sleeper Lounge purposes, especially since doing so would mean that they'd have to keep the LSL ViewDiners in a separate pool from the Crescent/Meteor ViewDiners. I really don't see why any modifications would need to be made to the diners for use as a Sleeper Lounge anyway. From an equipment standpoint, the job is pretty much the same.


Wouldn't be a "lounge" in my mind then. I envision a lounge as having nice comfortable seats facing the windows or angled to them with more of an atmosphere of a place to sit, relax and have a drink or light meal. Instead, if not modified, it looks more like a cafe that's out of business.

Then, again, if the "plan" fails, restoring them to diners wouldn't take a lot of effort except to clean out the cobwebs and stored items in the cookers.


----------



## cpotisch

me_little_me said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like they don't want to bother modifying the diners for Sleeper Lounge purposes, especially since doing so would mean that they'd have to keep the LSL ViewDiners in a separate pool from the Crescent/Meteor ViewDiners. I really don't see why any modifications would need to be made to the diners for use as a Sleeper Lounge anyway. From an equipment standpoint, the job is pretty much the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't be a "lounge" in my mind then. I envision a lounge as having nice comfortable seats facing the windows or angled to them with more of an atmosphere of a place to sit, relax and have a drink or light meal. Instead, if not modified, it looks more like a cafe that's out of business.
> 
> Then, again, if the "plan" fails, restoring them to diners wouldn't take a lot of effort except to clean out the cobwebs and stored items in the cookers.
Click to expand...

They call it a Sleeper Lounge, but it's not supposed to be a conventional lounge. It's really primarily a place for people to sit down and eat, but since it's exclusive to sleeper pax, they call it a lounge. It's not like an SSL, which is primarily to have a space to relax in your spare time.


----------



## Ryan

And again, they will still be light-years better than the current AmLounges caves.


----------



## Lonestar648

The former PPC had tables for eating plus a few chairs and lounge seating. I would say one can see the scenery much better from this car than any other single level car.


----------



## cpotisch

Lonestar648 said:


> The former PPC had tables for eating plus a few chairs and lounge seating. I would say one can see the scenery much better from this car than any other single level car.


I would agree. However, since the Sleeper Lounge is effectively to replace the diner, not to function as an SSL, the PPC and its views are pretty much irrelevant. And remember that the other single-level trains have to put up with an AmCan as a lounge, and nothing else. As much as I hate the changes taking place on June 1st, I do feel like the Sleeper Lounge will offer (sleeper) passengers on the LSL a much nicer place to relax and dine than we have now.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Ryan said:


> That number never sat right with me. By my count, there are 16 delivered and in service? If there were 11 of them parked, we'd be hearing of the Meteor and Crescent going out without dining cars, but I've not heard anything of the sort.



The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is he merged the CAF cars with the Heritage cars that were in Hialeah at one point. After all, this is the same group that when asked about the future of sleeping cars, they basically said (paraphrasing) that 25 new cars were ordered and would be used on trains like Auto Train and Coast Starlight to upgrade the experience.








cpotisch said:


> Sounds like they don't want to bother modifying the diners for Sleeper Lounge purposes, especially since doing so would mean that they'd have to keep the LSL ViewDiners in a separate pool from the Crescent/Meteor ViewDiners. I really don't see why any modifications would need to be made to the diners for use as a Sleeper Lounge anyway. From an equipment standpoint, the job is pretty much the same.


You have to wonder if they modify or alter the diners, will it impact the warranty with CAF. Perhaps it will so they'll leave it as is. We'll see what happens as they continue their march towards eliminating the F&B losses.



cpotisch said:


> Lonestar648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The former PPC had tables for eating plus a few chairs and lounge seating. I would say one can see the scenery much better from this car than any other single level car.
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree. However, since the Sleeper Lounge is effectively to replace the diner, not to function as an SSL, the PPC and its views are pretty much irrelevant. And remember that the other single-level trains have to put up with an AmCan as a lounge, and nothing else. As much as I hate the changes taking place on June 1st, I do feel like the Sleeper Lounge will offer (sleeper) passengers on the LSL a much nicer place to relax and dine than we have now.
Click to expand...

I definitely am not a fan of what they're doing with the coach passengers when it comes to the lounge. Once this sleeper lounge is added to the train, the diner lite/lounge will be removed from the train. The coach passengers will have to join the business class passengers in the split/club lounge. That's not a lot of room. I was hoping the diner lite/cafe car would remain.


----------



## cpotisch

Yeah, in a way the Lake Shore Limited is now like the Starvation, when it comes to coach passengers. However, on the Star at least the whole Cafe is open. On the LSL, half the car is used up by BC passengers. So even though the LSL is the second longest Amtrak train, all coach passengers will have to get their junk food from one half of an AmCan, and Business passengers have to put with everyone, as well. It all sucks.


----------



## Scott Orlando

Fwiw: At Orlando - 6 coaches on 97(31) and a special guest star appearance by Indy 8400


----------



## cpotisch

Scott Orlando said:


> Fwiw: At Orlando - 6 coaches on 97(31) and a special guest star appearance by Indy 8400


Deadheading or in service?


----------



## Scott Orlando

In service!


----------



## railiner

Just a thought...if the "new order" in dining service becomes a reality that endures (I hope not), how much would it cost to convert the Viewliner's from food service cars (or whatever they want to call them), into full sleeping cars? Doesn't their "modular design" make that a possibility?

That way, they could solve some of the sleeper shortages, without the immediate need for all new cars, and could utilize what I believe are an excess of Amfleet food service cars to substitute for them....


----------



## cpotisch

railiner said:


> Just a thought...if the "new order" in dining service becomes a reality that endures (I hope not), how much would it cost to convert the Viewliner's from food service cars (or whatever they want to call them), into full sleeping cars? Doesn't their "modular design" make that a possibility?
> 
> That way, they could solve some of the sleeper shortages, without the immediate need for all new cars, and could utilize what I believe are an excess of Amfleet food service cars to substitute for them....


They'd have to chop up the walls to fit more windows, install a vestibule with end doors, redo the interior, install the room modules, etc. It's doable, but I honestly think they'll just use the ViewDiners as Sleeper Lounges.


----------



## Thirdrail7

railiner said:


> Just a thought...if the "new order" in dining service becomes a reality that endures (I hope not), how much would it cost to convert the Viewliner's from food service cars (or whatever they want to call them), into full sleeping cars? Doesn't their "modular design" make that a possibility?
> 
> That way, they could solve some of the sleeper shortages, without the immediate need for all new cars, and could utilize what I believe are an excess of Amfleet food service cars to substitute for them....



We haven't seen a CAF sleeper since the prototype rolled out. Perhaps we should see what how they appear before considering making the late arriving dining cars into them.

It would likely be easier to keep them as dining cars and convert the sidelined AMcafes into coaches.


----------



## Ziv

Are we just a couple weeks from seeing the last diners delivered from CAF? This seems hard to believe. It is going to be a red letter day when the 68024 diner serves its first meal, cold or hot.

And, possibly, the first bag-dorms a couple months after that?

I hope the bag-dorms are released by CAF a bit faster than the diners, but I am not going to hold my breath. I generally only take SuperLiner sleepers, but I will be super happy to see the VL-II sleepers arrive, whenever that happens.


----------



## cpotisch

Ziv said:


> Are we just a couple weeks from seeing the last diners delivered from CAF? This seems hard to believe.


We are not. We've still got Albany, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Springfield, and Tallahassee left.


----------



## Ziv

Oh, snap! I forgot about the skip-over'ed diners! I am not sure that that is a word, but I can't think of a better one.

I knew I was being too optimistic...

I thought it was just Springfield and Tallahassee left. An extra 4 diners means another (2 * 5) weeks, probably, on top of the couple weeks for Springfield and Tallahassee. So somewhere around 3 more months for the diners last delivery.

Thanks, C.



cpotisch said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are we just a couple weeks from seeing the last diners delivered from CAF? This seems hard to believe.
> 
> 
> 
> We are not. We've still got Albany, Concord, Dover, Frankfort, Springfield, and Tallahassee left.
Click to expand...


----------



## cpotisch

Ziv said:


> Oh, snap! I forgot about the skip-over'ed diners! I am not sure that that is a word, but I can't think of a better one.


It’s not, so I would just go with “skipped”.


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> me_little_me said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like they don't want to bother modifying the diners for Sleeper Lounge purposes, especially since doing so would mean that they'd have to keep the LSL ViewDiners in a separate pool from the Crescent/Meteor ViewDiners. I really don't see why any modifications would need to be made to the diners for use as a Sleeper Lounge anyway. From an equipment standpoint, the job is pretty much the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't be a "lounge" in my mind then. I envision a lounge as having nice comfortable seats facing the windows or angled to them with more of an atmosphere of a place to sit, relax and have a drink or light meal. Instead, if not modified, it looks more like a cafe that's out of business.
> 
> Then, again, if the "plan" fails, restoring them to diners wouldn't take a lot of effort except to clean out the cobwebs and stored items in the cookers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They call it a Sleeper Lounge, but it's not supposed to be a conventional lounge. It's really primarily a place for people to sit down and eat, but since it's exclusive to sleeper pax, they call it a lounge. It's not like an SSL, which is primarily to have a space to relax in your spare time.
Click to expand...

Yeah! They want to disappoint new sleeper passengers who have a different view of what the word "lounge" means. Gets more letters to the VP of Customer Dissatisfaction.


----------



## GBNorman

There are reports of a sighting over at another site of 449(2) at BBY with V-II "Nashville" in consist .


----------



## PVD

That depends, if you are a regular traveler on current single level LD trains, the CAF diner is a more pleasant place to sit than what is available as a lounge for sleeper passengers now. Time will tell if w will get to use them as "hangouts"


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> That depends, if you are a regular traveler on current single level LD trains, the CAF diner is a more pleasant place to sit than what is available as a lounge for sleeper passengers now. Time will tell if w will get to use them as "hangouts"


Yeah, regardless of the meals or service, the ViewDiners are definitely a hell of a lot nicer to sit in than the existing AmCans.


----------



## Lonestar648

Having the VII Diners to sit in, is so much nicer, not going to quibble about the word "Lounge". Not having to be stuck in my room most of the trip, except for a meal, will be nice. Definitely an improvement on the LSL.


----------



## Ryan

GBNorman said:


> There are reports of a sighting over at another site of 449(2) at BBY with V-II "Nashville" in consist .


There were photographs of it posted here.



Train_Freak said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess you were on 449(2), meaning 68021 'Raleigh' was on your train. Meaning this run must be the first time it ever entered service!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7739.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_7750.jpg
> I’m on 449(2) at Albany. I checked the “sleeper lounge” and it’s “Nashville”.
Click to expand...


----------



## CHvision

Not sure if this fits the topic, but just for the summer, the Lake Shore Limited consist is shortened by a baggage car, a Amfleet II cafe and a coach car.


----------



## PVD

A diner has taken over for the amcafe. LSL is also down 1 VL sleeper. No need for a NY bag, it isn't going to NYP for a while.


----------



## CHvision

The Lake Shore Limited now has a viewliner diner, unfortunately, it's used as a lounge car


----------



## jis

I just saw a video taken at Worcester of the LSL yesterday. It appears to consist of:

1 P42

1 VL II Bag

4 Amfleet II Coach

1 Amfleet Lounge/BC

1 VL II Diner/lounge

2 VL I Sleeper

So that is one less VL I Sleeper, 1 less VL II bag and 1 or 2 less Amfleet II Coach compared to the full complement before the Diner was taken off.


----------



## PVD

That is consistent with the set I rode on a few days ago. Pretty much what fits Boston.


----------



## Thirdrail7

For the record, does anyone still care if/when new diners are released from the factory? I'm hardly excited at the prospect of receiving a new "lounge."


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> For the record, does anyone still care if/when new diners are released from the factory? I'm hardly excited at the prospect of receiving a new "lounge."


Yo, I need an excuse to go to Fox Point State Park (other than the walking there is beneficial to my health).


----------



## Lonestar648

Seems anticlimactic to look at additional Diner releases. More interesting is how far away are the other cars.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Yes information still need.

Why were a few cars skipped?

When will Albany (the test bed) be available?

What is next?

What is the deployment plan?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Actually, from a train watching perspective, I would like to see these lounges introduced to the Star (even without the meals). I feel it adds more character to the train when I watch it go by


----------



## stappend

Thirdrail7 said:


> For the record, does anyone still care if/when new diners are released from the factory? I'm hardly excited at the prospect of receiving a new "lounge."


Yes, as watching the rest of the diners be delivered will give us all false hope that the dorms and sleepers will quickly follow.


----------



## cpotisch

Honestly, I think the Cardinal is the most likely use for the new diners anytime remotely soon, if only because it only needs two diners, and if they kept the current meal prep system, operating costs wouldn't have to increase. Amtrak currently has 20 ViewDiners available for service, but between the Meteor, Crescent, and LSL, they're only using 11 at a time. Not to go on another tangent about shop margins, but if they put ViewDiners on the Cardinal, they would have seven cars available as protects, which strikes me as more than enough. I'm not saying it's likely, but I think it's much more likely than adding them to the Star. That said, if they don't put the diners on either, the only difference each delivery makes is that we're that much closer to the sleepers and bag-dorms.


----------



## CHvision

In my opinion, when all the diners are on Amtrak, it would make sense to put one on the Cardinal and the Star (same process as the LSL so far).


----------



## cpotisch

CHvision said:


> In my opinion, when all the diners are on Amtrak, it would make sense to put one on the Cardinal and the Star (same process as the LSL so far).


If they put it on the Star, it would be replacing the current AmCafe, which has more booths/tables than the ViewDiners, and offers an open food service area and counter. That means a switch to a ViewDiner would result in reduced capacity, and they would probably have to cut away the wall enclosing the kitchen area, so as to serve people snacks from it. Possible, but strikes me as doubtful.


----------



## PRR 60

cpotisch said:


> CHvision said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, when all the diners are on Amtrak, it would make sense to put one on the Cardinal and the Star (same process as the LSL so far).
> 
> 
> 
> If they put it on the Star, it would be replacing the current AmCafe, which has more booths/tables than the ViewDiners, and offers an open food service area and counter. That means a switch to a ViewDiner would result in reduced capacity, and they would probably have to cut away the wall enclosing the kitchen area, so as to serve people snacks from it. Possible, but strikes me as doubtful.
Click to expand...

Not sure it would replace the AmCafe or would serve as a Sleeper Lounge as on the Lake Shore with the Cafe continuing to be available for Coach passengers. I would think they would want to harmonize the service offerings across the system, with all single-night trains having the same amenities for Coach and Sleeper. My guess is that the Star being an outlier will be ending.


----------



## GBNorman

OK volks; there are nineteen (19) VII-D on the property. Including the five "protect" cars needed to have one at each end point, that means there are three "sitting in the sun" at HIA, or likely getting their periodic maintenance. Eleven are needed for existing assignments to 19-20, 87-88, and 448-449. If the remaining six cars are to be assigned to 50-51 and 91-92, a protect would need to be placed at WAS. That means one car short, or either there would be one less at HIA, or 8400 would need to be returned to service.

Now once the Penn trackwork is done and both 50-51 and 48-49 resume service there, the protects at both BOS and WAS could be released.

Stay tuned.


----------



## Lonestar648

SS Sleeper rates would have to be changed to compensate for meals being added.


----------



## gaspeamtrak

Just wondering if anything is happening at the "Caf" plant in "Elmira"

Seems like we have not seen any deliveries in a while???

Just curious ???

Thanks...


----------



## cpotisch

gaspeamtrak said:


> Just wondering if anything is happening at the "Caf" plant in "Elmira"
> 
> Seems like we have not seen any deliveries in a while???
> 
> Just curious ???
> 
> Thanks...


This has been asked. Seems like they don't need anymore at the moment, so maybe CAF has decided to take the month off.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Time for the Bag Dorms to start rolling down the Line, but with the current de-emphasis on Checked Baggage and destaffing Stations, perhaps Amtrak should negotiate starting the Sleeper Production instead???

Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???


----------



## cpotisch

Bob Dylan said:


> Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???


I think I'll celebrate the delivery of the V-II sleepers at my retirement party.


----------



## Ziv

I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.



cpotisch said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'll celebrate the delivery of the V-II sleepers at my retirement party.
Click to expand...


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Ziv said:


> I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'll celebrate the delivery of the V-II sleepers at my retirement party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Although many members on here have made plans about making the change, there are no formal plans that I am aware of to change the Capitol Limited from Viewliner to Amfleet. There is currently a vast shortage of Amfleets and it will take a while before there is a drastic increase in the number of Viewliners, as the old ones must be renovated once the new ones come in. Anderson has also indicated that there are plans for a Superliner replacement, likely from Siemens or some other manufacturer who can deliver cars must faster than CAF has. In my opinion, the CL will remain with Superliners until the Superliner replacement cars begin arriving, although it is certainly possible that they may end up being single-level and the same as the Amfleet replacements if Anderson prioritizes standardization. It is also possible that the Amfleet replacements come before the Superliner replacements, which could change things but I predict they won't be far apart if both do end up happening as Anderson may not be around for many years but will try to get both projects at least started as soon as possible. As I said, this is just my prediction based on the information available and the CL could change to single-level in the next year, but it would likely require an unexpected change such as the cancellation of the Cardinal.


----------



## me_little_me

Bob Dylan said:


> Time for the Bag Dorms to start rolling down the Line, but with the current de-emphasis on Checked Baggage and destaffing Stations, perhaps Amtrak should negotiate starting the Sleeper Production instead???


The bagdorms can be used instead of the baggage cars which can then be repurposed without modification and used as private cars for Amtrak management!


----------



## cpotisch

Ziv said:


> I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.


Yeah, I don't know that there's much indication that the V-II sleepers will end up on the Capitol anytime soon. It's been talked about, but to my knowledge, not confirmed in any way.


----------



## Ziv

I am probably remembering what I wanted to hear, but I thought there was a good chance that the Cap Limited would eventually go single level so as to give more coach car and sleeper car capacity to the western LD trains. I grew up next to the Empire Builder, and that is my favorite train. I would like to see the EB and CZ and the Chief get more cars, in the hope that they could fill the new cars as well as the old, and maybe come even closer to being profitable. And maybe make it easier for me to get a low bucket fare on my shoulder month travels!

What I don't remember is where the coach cars would come from, since the CAF order doesn't have any as of yet, and it is doubtful that CAF wants to build any more cars at the prices on the current contract. Add to that the fact that I have no idea where the cars from the Sumitomo/Siemens buy will end up. My guess/best memory is that they will still almost all going to CA and the Midwest.

It just seems like with the retirement of so much debt, this is the time to make the investments that will allow Amtrak to grow, both in the amount of cars per train and also perhaps, in adding train frequencies on the more successful/profitable routes. But I don't think the way forward is to cannibalize routes. Even though I have never ridden the Cardinal, I would not want to see it eliminated to grow the remaining routes.

Sorry for the lack of knowledge I present when it comes to Amtrak and its rolling stock! The scary part is that I know a lot more now than I did a year ago...



brianpmcdonnell17 said:


> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'll celebrate the delivery of the V-II sleepers at my retirement party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Although many members on here have made plans about making the change, there are no formal plans that I am aware of to change the Capitol Limited from Viewliner to Amfleet. There is currently a vast shortage of Amfleets and it will take a while before there is a drastic increase in the number of Viewliners, as the old ones must be renovated once the new ones come in. Anderson has also indicated that there are plans for a Superliner replacement, likely from Siemens or some other manufacturer who can deliver cars must faster than CAF has. In my opinion, the CL will remain with Superliners until the Superliner replacement cars begin arriving, although it is certainly possible that they may end up being single-level and the same as the Amfleet replacements if Anderson prioritizes standardization. It is also possible that the Amfleet replacements come before the Superliner replacements, which could change things but I predict they won't be far apart if both do end up happening as Anderson may not be around for many years but will try to get both projects at least started as soon as possible. As I said, this is just my prediction based on the information available and the CL could change to single-level in the next year, but it would likely require an unexpected change such as the cancellation of the Cardinal.
Click to expand...


----------



## cpotisch

Ziv said:


> What I don't remember is where the coach cars would come from, since the CAF order doesn't have any as of yet, and it is doubtful that CAF wants to build any more cars at the prices on the current contract.


That strikes me as a bit of an understatement, More like, "CAF probably won't even remotely consider building any more Viewliner IIs, or any other Amtrak car order for that matter, pretty much regardless of the price." The V-II order was such a disaster, and cost CAF so much money, that I bet they'd declare bankruptcy before they make any extra V-IIs. Some of that might be a bit conjectural, but that's my take given what I've heard.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Ziv said:


> I am probably remembering what I wanted to hear, but I thought there was a good chance that the Cap Limited would eventually go single level so as to give more coach car and sleeper car capacity to the western LD trains. I grew up next to the Empire Builder, and that is my favorite train. I would like to see the EB and CZ and the Chief get more cars, in the hope that they could fill the new cars as well as the old, and maybe come even closer to being profitable. And maybe make it easier for me to get a low bucket fare on my shoulder month travels!
> 
> What I don't remember is where the coach cars would come from, since the CAF order doesn't have any as of yet, and it is doubtful that CAF wants to build any more cars at the prices on the current contract. Add to that the fact that I have no idea where the cars from the Sumitomo/Siemens buy will end up. My guess/best memory is that they will still almost all going to CA and the Midwest.
> 
> It just seems like with the retirement of so much debt, this is the time to make the investments that will allow Amtrak to grow, both in the amount of cars per train and also perhaps, in adding train frequencies on the more successful/profitable routes. But I don't think the way forward is to cannibalize routes. Even though I have never ridden the Cardinal, I would not want to see it eliminated to grow the remaining routes.
> 
> Sorry for the lack of knowledge I present when it comes to Amtrak and its rolling stock! The scary part is that I know a lot more now than I did a year ago...
> 
> 
> 
> brianpmcdonnell17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ziv said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am just glad that someone else asked "Are we there yet?" ;-) Because I have been dieing to ask the same question for the past week. I really want to see the last of the diners show up and for CAF to move on to delivering the next type of cars. One day, maybe in my lifetime, I hope to see the new VLII sleepers. I usually use the Super Liner sleepers but I may make an exception and use one of the new sleepers if I can be sure of getting one of the new, not the old, ones on the Capitol Limited. My next trip is in May, so it won't happen next year, I guess. Maybe in 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will we ever see the VL Sleepers???
> 
> 
> 
> I think I'll celebrate the delivery of the V-II sleepers at my retirement party.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Although many members on here have made plans about making the change, there are no formal plans that I am aware of to change the Capitol Limited from Viewliner to Amfleet. There is currently a vast shortage of Amfleets and it will take a while before there is a drastic increase in the number of Viewliners, as the old ones must be renovated once the new ones come in. Anderson has also indicated that there are plans for a Superliner replacement, likely from Siemens or some other manufacturer who can deliver cars must faster than CAF has. In my opinion, the CL will remain with Superliners until the Superliner replacement cars begin arriving, although it is certainly possible that they may end up being single-level and the same as the Amfleet replacements if Anderson prioritizes standardization. It is also possible that the Amfleet replacements come before the Superliner replacements, which could change things but I predict they won't be far apart if both do end up happening as Anderson may not be around for many years but will try to get both projects at least started as soon as possible. As I said, this is just my prediction based on the information available and the CL could change to single-level in the next year, but it would likely require an unexpected change such as the cancellation of the Cardinal.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I also would not support the cancellation of the Cardinal; I was just mentioning what could happen if it were to be canceled. I actually prefer Superliners, so for me that would mean the loss of one route and the downgrading of another. 
I agree that this is a good time for Amtrak to order new cars, and I am actually hopeful that some progress will be made soon. The RFP is already out for locomotives and there have been indications that another RFP for passenger cars may not be far behind. As much as I am concerned about some of the other policies of the current Amtrak administration, they seem to be serious about improving the shortage of equipment.


----------



## west point

IMHO superliners are not tall enough to equal the V-2s in sleeper and coach space. However with CHI clearances what they are taller b-levels are not possible.


----------



## Eric S

Ziv said:


> Add to that the fact that I have no idea where the cars from the Sumitomo/Siemens buy will end up. My guess/best memory is that they will still almost all going to CA and the Midwest.


Those cars will all be going to California and the Midwest (Illinois, Michigan, and Missouri) - which are the states that purchased them (as opposed to Amtrak).


----------



## Ziv

Siemens seems to be delivering the goods so maybe Amtrak should buy some of their own cars to the same spec as the CA/midwest order. You have to start somewhere and a relatively modest investment could get them 30 or 40 new coach cars.


----------



## jis

Interesting article on _The ongoing Viewliner II saga_ in the July 2018 issue of _Trains Mag_ on page 54. Recommended reading.

It has an interesting explanation of why 15 Bag-Dorms were converted to 15 Baggage Cars.

It also gives a new timeline quoting Magliari of Amtrak and Tomar of CAF- All Diner cars delivered by the end of 2018. Sleeper delivery commences mid-2019, and the first to be delivered will be the 10 Bag Dorms. So one could surmise that we will probably not see any Sleepers on the property until 2020, unless rate of delivery picks up substantially post mid-2019.

Furthermore it gives the impression that while the shells and a prototype are done the rest of the design for production of the Sleepers is still being finalized.

There is a hint that engineering changes came in late, after initial shell construction had started, which apparently caused a whole lot of reworking to be needed slipping deadlines in a big way.

On Page 56 there is an interesting article How to use the cars, proposing among other things:


LSL Diner and 4 Sleepers and a Bag Dorm
A Boston - Chicago LSL2 on a flipped schedule that carries a New York Sleeper connecting to it on an Empire Service train.
Meteor with 4 Sleepers, flipping a Sleeper to the Card in the summer months as a possibility
Combined Silver Star/Carolinian with 3 Sleepers and a Diner, but oddly, no Cafe south of Raleigh apparently. I don't know why that makes any sense
Crescent with 4 Sleepers, two of which are short turned at Atlanta. Good luck with that. The alternative suggested with not much equipment requirement analysis is to institute the Crescent Star. This needs to be better thought out than is in th article.
Daily Cardinal with one Sleeper and Diner. I would offload at least one Sleeper from Crescent to add another Sleeper to the Card, specially since no one will short turn anything in Atlanta in the foreseeable future.
65/66/67 with a Sleeper
Anyway, an interesting read, and many of the ideas quite reasonable, though possibly not really implementable for various extraneous reasons.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

One think we can start a new thread with this proposal.

Not at the house, is this Amtrak proposal or just Trains proposal?

.


----------



## MikefromCrete

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> One think we can start a new thread with this proposal.
> 
> Not at the house, is this Amtrak proposal or just Trains proposal?
> 
> .


It's a proposal by Bob Johnston, Trains' passenger rail reporter.


----------



## west point

About cut off cars in Atlanta. The PRIAA for the Crescent ( which appears to have been deleted ) stated that there would be a very shortened Crescent south of Atlanta. Just 1 loco, baggage, sleeper ( or maybe a bag dorm ) diner or just a lounge; and 2 coaches. That does sound much like the builder west of Spokane,

North of Atlanta 2 locos, 4 - 6 coaches diner, lounge, 3-6 sleepers , baggage. That is an example of the dichotomy of the Crescent's ridership. South of ATL extra cars when demand warranted.

8 -10 less cars not needed south of ATL would mean

A published figure of operating a passenger car was given as ~ $4.00 per mile some time ago. if that included OBS is unknown. some OBS laying over in ATL might be extra costs

SO:

518 miles times 2 a day times 30 days a month times $4.00 = savings of ~ $125k month or $1.5 M / year per car

Now to do the necessary switching at ATL would require a switch and siding south of ATL station and maybe an additional 2 switches north of station on main tack and present siding. As well permanent HEP, potable water, and lav servicing available on the steel stub tracks. 2 cut off cars not enough financially

as well an Amtrak switcher with crew to switch the rear end of Crescent both directions. Trailing loco could pull lead cars going south with lead loco pulling ahead of new installed switch. North bound lead loco could disconnect with baggage and dropped loco could back onto train

disconnect and lead loco could become second loco attached. Now what delays would occur for PTC initialization is unknown.

Large capital costs and getting available cars is also a consideration.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

The new and improved Atlanta Station was to be a stub track. Back in both directions so to drop cars there only requires road power.

Last report nothing going forward on this station.

Still think a park and ride station on the west side of Atlanta would do nicely. Even if it required a switcher and crew. Cover the lack of parking at the current station.


----------



## jis

In any case, if the current projected delivery dates hold, we will have to worry about such things in mid-2020 at the earliest, and more likely in 2021. No point in getting overly excited about it already. Let us focus on tracking delivery schedules and such.

At this rate the new Diesels and possibly even early delivery of Coaches from yet to be placed orders may come in before this order is completed. Sigh....


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> At this rate the new Diesels and possibly even early delivery of Coaches from yet to be placed orders may come in before this order is completed. Sigh....


Well, Atlanta is in the south, where things tend to go slow, including their speech.



(I was born in GA, so I"m part southerner - parents are from mid-atlantic).


----------



## cpotisch

Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.


----------



## frequentflyer

cpotisch said:


> Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.


Take this with a grain of salt, but I read on another forum that Amtrak may have grounds to cancel the contract do to CAF not meeting certain criterias and CAF at this stage would be ok with that happening. Again, a grain of salt.


----------



## cpotisch

frequentflyer said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> Take this with a grain of salt, but I read on another forum that Amtrak may have grounds to cancel the contract do to CAF not meeting certain criterias and CAF at this stage would be ok with that happening. Again, a grain of salt.
Click to expand...

Yikes. A slightly salty yikes, but yikes nonetheless.


----------



## AmtrakLKL

cpotisch said:


> Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.


The last three diners will not be out for a while, but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakLKL said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> The last three diners will not be out for a while, but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.
Click to expand...

Six diners, actually.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, what is happening with the diners? Its been many months since the last delivery. Could Amtrak possibly have had CAF skip to production of the bag-dorms and/or sleepers? Seems like they probably arent going to need more diners any time soon, so it could it make sense to skip the remaining diners for now and head on to the cars that actually make money? Im just wondering.
> 
> 
> 
> The last three diners will not be out for a while, but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Six diners, actually.
Click to expand...

Maybe 3 are due out sooner than later???


----------



## Thirdrail7

Routing details being finalized.


----------



## Ziv

Great news! I have been hoping to see this "scope" for a couple weeks!



Thirdrail7 said:


> Routing details being finalized.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> Routing details being finalized.


Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!


----------



## bcanedy

Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!

I think you mean “sleeping car lounges”.

[emoji6]


----------



## cpotisch

bcanedy said:


> Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!
> I think you mean “sleeping car lounges”.
> 
> [emoji6]


Fortunately, at this point 8 out of the 11 ViewDiners currently in service are being used as full service diners. So joking aside, I think I can pretty accurately call them "diners" at the moment.


----------



## KnightRail

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Routing details being finalized.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!
Click to expand...

Should have been long finished with the entire contract/order by now.


----------



## Acela150

KnightRail said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Routing details being finalized.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should have been long finished with the entire contract/order by now.
Click to expand...

And? You're stating pretty obvious facts that we're all aware of.


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakLKL said:


> The last three diners will not be out for a while, *but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.*


----------



## GBNorman

OK Class; time for a "pop quiz":

The next "drop" of V-II Diners wI'll be comprised of:___, ___, and ___.

00-Albany

09-Concord

10-Dover

11-Frankfort

23-Springfield

24-Tallahassee

With three additional cars on the property, V-II's could be assigned to 50-51, Cardinal. One would be a protect at Wash.

Once again, when Penn is fully reopened, and 48-51 resume service there, the protects assigned at Boston and Wash could be released allowing more of a "cushion".

Separately, there is a report at another site that 8400 has been observed in Chicago and assigned to 391-394, Illini-Saluki as an axle count car.


----------



## Ziv

I want to see some new bag-dorms and/or sleepers within my lifetime, so I am ok with the last 3 diners getting "postponed".



Thirdrail7 said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The last three diners will not be out for a while, *but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.*
Click to expand...


----------



## KnightRail

Acela150 said:


> KnightRail said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Routing details being finalized.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should have been long finished with the entire contract/order by now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And? You're stating pretty obvious facts that we're all aware of.
Click to expand...

It was a sarcastic correction to the quoted post. If it was too subtle, the sarcasm will be produced at a more robust rate than Viewliners going forward.


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> With three additional cars on the property, V-II's could be assigned to 50-51, Cardinal. One would be a protect at Wash.


I wouldn't get my hopes up on that. The Cardinal is one of the most neglected routes and I just don't see them putting the nice and shiny equipment on it anytime soon.


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Routing details being finalized.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally! They should have been finished with all the diners by now!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Should have been long finished with the entire contract/order by now.
Click to expand...

Right. I just meant that in the four or so months since the last delivery, if CAF had continued to deliver two cars per month, they would have finished off all the diners by now.


----------



## jis

Now apparently it will be close to the last quarter before the Diners are done.


----------



## tricia

jis said:


> Now apparently it will be close to the last quarter before the Diners are done.


Gosh, you're being such an optimist today!


----------



## GBNorman

cpotisch said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> With three additional cars on the property, V-II's could be assigned to 50-51, Cardinal. One would be a protect at Wash.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't get my hopes up on that. The Cardinal is one of the most neglected routes and I just don't see them putting the nice and shiny equipment on it anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Of course, the "flipside" to that would be, first, the AmCafe lost at Kayce "ain't a comin' back", and secondly, Amtrak is still "experimenting" with the delivery of F&B on the LDSL's. Having a "tryout" on a lower volume train like The Cardinal, will enable them to see if F&B for everyone - purchased Snack Bar fare and the "Fresh and Comtemporary" for the Sleepers, can be efficiently handled by, say, one LSA. It appears that handling food for Sleeper passengers is within the job description for the SCSA.
Such could also be a "laboratory" for the penultimate step I would like to see Amtrak take - no cash.

If all is successful, then with delivery of the last three, as well as release of the protect at Boston and Wash, they could then inaugurate same on 91-92, Silver Star.


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> With three additional cars on the property, V-II's could be assigned to 50-51, Cardinal. One would be a protect at Wash.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't get my hopes up on that. The Cardinal is one of the most neglected routes and I just don't see them putting the nice and shiny equipment on it anytime soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course, the "flipside" to that would be, first, the AmCafe lost at Kayce "ain't a comin' back", and secondly, Amtrak is still "experimenting" with the delivery of F&B on the LDSL's. Having a "tryout" on a lower volume train like The Cardinal, will enable them to see if F&B for everyone - purchased Snack Bar fare and the "Fresh and Comtemporary" for the Sleepers, can be efficiently handled by, say, one LSA. It appears that handling food for Sleeper passengers is within the job description for the SCSA.
Click to expand...

But they're already doing exactly that on the CL and LSL. So why are you saying they should/would put ViewDiners on the Cardinal, just to test out something that's already in place on two routes?


----------



## lordsigma

I think he’s getting at experimenting with combining coach cafe/sleeper “fresh” dining into one LSA working in one prep area (presumably using the ViewDiner kitchen.) Id hate to see more employees lose their jobs but at least that would make better use of the new Viewliner kitchens. If that’s something they are considering that would be a good train to try it out on.


----------



## cpotisch

lordsigma said:


> I think he’s getting at experimenting with combining coach cafe/sleeper “fresh” dining into one LSA working in one prep area (presumably using the ViewDiner kitchen.) Id hate to see more employees lose their jobs but at least that would make better use of the new Viewliner kitchens. If that’s something they are considering that would be a good train to try it out on.


Then what's the relevance of the ViewDiners? There's nothing about a V-II that would make that any more doable. In fact, the current AM-II diner-lite would probably be a lot more conducive to that than a V-II diner.


----------



## lordsigma

cpotisch said:


> Then what's the relevance of the ViewDiners? There's nothing about a V-II that would make that any more doable. In fact, the current AM-II diner-lite would probably be a lot more conducive to that than a V-II diner.


 True. I guess a benefit with V-II would be it’s a newer car and would be a way to make use of the newer cars. Obviously everything is just speculation at this point. Will be interesting to see why they do nonetheless.


----------



## bretton88

I could see the V-2s on the Cardinal if only because there's no other place to put them. It's possible that they could operate as sleeper lounges only. While that would be a gross underuse of the cars, on a scenic route like the Cardinal it would be a major improvement over the existing sightseeing options.


----------



## me_little_me

tricia said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now apparently it will be close to the last quarter before the Diners are done.
> 
> 
> 
> Gosh, you're being such an optimist today!
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. jis did not mention what year!


----------



## Palmetto

Waiting on Thirdrail's exit signs...............


----------



## cpotisch

Palmetto said:


> Waiting on Thirdrail's exit signs...............


I have a hunch it's going to be for a "river." That's a shame. I love the V-I sleepers.


----------



## jis

I am in a V-I Sleeper. Its name “Croton River” is prominently visible on its side. The other V-I Sleeper on this train also has its name “New River” displayed on its side. All VL Sleepers are Rivers now.


----------



## pennyk

jis said:


> I am in a V-I Sleeper. Its name Croton River is prominently visible on its side. The other V-I Sleeper on this train also has its name New River displayed on its side. All VL Sleepers are Rivers now.


I traveled in New River yesterday.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Palmetto said:


> Waiting on Thirdrail's exit signs...............


The conference call is today.


----------



## PVD

OTOL has an excellent listing of both the renamed for rivers VL1 and the intended rivers for the VL2 (sleepers)


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> I am in a V-I Sleeper. Its name “Croton River” is prominently visible on its side. The other V-I Sleeper on this train also has its name “New River” displayed on its side. All VL Sleepers are Rivers now.


I know that. However I doubt CAF will be delivering any V-I sleepers anytime soon.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am in a V-I Sleeper. Its name “Croton River” is prominently visible on its side. The other V-I Sleeper on this train also has its name “New River” displayed on its side. All VL Sleepers are Rivers now.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that. However I doubt CAF will be delivering any V-I sleepers anytime soon.
Click to expand...

I doubt they would seeing that they’re making V-II’s.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am in a V-I Sleeper. Its name “Croton River” is prominently visible on its side. The other V-I Sleeper on this train also has its name “New River” displayed on its side. All VL Sleepers are Rivers now.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that. However I doubt CAF will be delivering any V-I sleepers anytime soon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I doubt they would seeing that they’re making V-II’s.
Click to expand...

That was my point.


----------



## PVD

Remember, they were not originally "Rivers", they were "Views" For a while, the names on the sides were pretty much gone. only the end plates on the doors were there, and some not in good shape. So the renaming of the series in preparation for its expansion is worth some note. Not sure many casual riders realized the cars were named, and now renamed.


----------



## cpotisch

Bag-dorms don't have names, right? I was looking at pictures of prototype 69000 and didn't see one on the side, and OTOL isn't showing anything either. Are they only putting names on the cars that carry revenue passengers?


----------



## PVD

I haven't seen any signs of it, but VL diners are named and they are revenue passenger used, but not sold space, only a few heritage diners had names...the old heritage dorms were named, At this point I'm ready to take book on which comes first, the completion of the VL2 order or "East side access"


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> I haven't seen any signs of it, but VL diners are named and they are revenue passenger used, but not sold space, only a few heritage diners had names...the old heritage dorms were named, At this point I'm ready to take book on which comes first, the completion of the VL2 order or "East side access"


I'm working backwards from the fact that the bag-dorms and baggage cars don't have names, and revenue passengers never use them, whereas the sleepers and diners do have names, and revenue passengers do use them.


----------



## PVD

While there may be a list somewhere, I have never seen names for SL trans dorms, and they routinely carry revenue passengers. Heritage dorm cars had names and did not. Sort of like the first day of a PBX school I attended "All port assignments on cards in this switch start with 0, unless they don't"


----------



## cpotisch

Firstly, page 100! Yay!

Secondly, I'm really only thinking about V-IIs. What they did for the bi-level fleet 25 years ago is another story.


----------



## cocojacoby

It would look much better if the name was bigger and the blue field filled the name plate!


----------



## Thirdrail7

GBNorman said:


> OK Class; time for a "pop quiz":
> 
> The next "drop" of V-II Diners wI'll be comprised of:___, ___, and ___.
> 
> 00-Albany
> 
> 09-Concord
> 
> 10-Dover
> 
> 11-Frankfort
> 
> 23-Springfield
> 
> 24-Tallahassee
> 
> Separately, there is a report at another site that 8400 has been observed in Chicago and assigned to 391-394, Illini-Saluki as an axle count car.


Well, no one bothered to take your exam, Mr. Norman so every one gets a zero! You are indeed correct in stating the 8400 is is being used an an axle count car.



Palmetto said:


> Waiting on Thirdrail's exit signs...............




Here you go but I have to advise you this may be my last post....if AmtrakBlue catches me:











Here comes the the long delayed, "I'm not last" first state representative. I think this sign sums it up!






cpotisch said:


> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting on Thirdrail's exit signs...............
> 
> 
> 
> I have a hunch it's going to be for a "river." That's a shame. I love the V-I sleepers.
Click to expand...


Close, but no cigar. Bringing the trio to a quartet is the car with no name. Here is the representatives debut:





It's time for another thread. We'll see if the mods allow it...and Blue doesn't find me!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK Class; time for a "pop quiz":
> 
> The next "drop" of V-II Diners wI'll be comprised of:___, ___, and ___.
> 
> 00-Albany
> 
> 09-Concord
> 
> 10-Dover
> 
> 11-Frankfort
> 
> 23-Springfield
> 
> 24-Tallahassee
> 
> Separately, there is a report at another site that 8400 has been observed in Chicago and assigned to 391-394, Illini-Saluki as an axle count car.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, no one bothered to take your exam, Mr. Norman so every one gets a zero! You are indeed correct in stating the 8400 is is being used an an axle count car.
> 
> 
> 
> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting on Thirdrail's exit signs...............
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here you go but I have to advise you this may be my last post....if AmtrakBlue catches me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here comes the the long delayed, "I'm not last" first state representative. I think this sign sums it up!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dover Damamge.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Palmetto said:
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting on Thirdrail's exit signs...............
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a hunch it's going to be for a "river." That's a shame. I love the V-I sleepers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Close, but no cigar. Bringing the trio to a quartet is the car with no name. Here is the representatives debut:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View3.png
> 
> 
> 
> +2.png
> 
> It's time for another thread. We'll see if the mods allow it...and Blue doesn't find me!
Click to expand...

I’m coming for you.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> Close, but no cigar. Bringing the trio to a quartet is the car with no name. Here is the representatives debut:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View3.png
> 
> 
> 
> +2.png
> 
> It's time for another thread. We'll see if the mods allow it...and Blue doesn't find me!


At long last, the Bag-dorms are here. Next time I'm on a train with a bag-dorm, I think I'm going to ask to take a look in. I get that everyone wants the new, pretty sleepers, but I'm really gonna miss the current ones.


----------



## Ryan

No you’re not, they’re not going anywhere.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

The Viewliner Is will temporarily go out of service as they are renovated, which involves removing the toilets from the rooms and installing a shared bathroom for the car. However, it is unlikely that all cars will be out of service at one time and all will eventually return.


----------



## PVD

Based on the mockups I've seen, other than the toilet, differences are not huge.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> No you’re not, they’re not going anywhere.


As Brian said, it seems like the plan is to eventually renovate the V-Is and bring the interiors "up" to V-II spec.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Based on the mockups I've seen, other than the toilet, differences are not huge.


I just have a fondness for the old colors and materials. And in that respect, the V-IIs have changed in almost every way.


----------



## PVD

note that the electrical receptacle is now a duplex, and not on the window side


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> note that the electrical receptacle is now a duplex, and not on the window side


I think you're thinking of Superliners...


----------



## PVD

Wasn't it to the left of and just above the sink on VL1? I should have said not on mirror side.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Wasn't it to the left of and just above the sink on VL1? I should have said not on mirror side.


V-Is have two outlets, and yes they are to the left of and just above the sink. Meanwhile Superliner roomettes have one outlet, between the window and the seat, so I thought you were talking about that.


----------



## stappend

GBNorman said:


> OK Class; time for a "pop quiz":
> 
> The next "drop" of V-II Diners wI'll be comprised of:___, ___, and ___.
> 
> 00-Albany
> 
> 09-Concord
> 
> 10-Dover
> 
> 11-Frankfort
> 
> 23-Springfield
> 
> 24-Tallahassee
> 
> With three additional cars on the property, V-II's could be assigned to 50-51, Cardinal. One would be a protect at Wash.
> 
> Once again, when Penn is fully reopened, and 48-51 resume service there, the protects assigned at Boston and Wash could be released allowing more of a "cushion".
> 
> Separately, there is a report at another site that 8400 has been observed in Chicago and assigned to 391-394, Illini-Saluki as an axle count car.


I was in Chicago 7/13 and 8400 was on a consist in the yard.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you’re not, they’re not going anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Brian said, it seems like the plan is to eventually renovate the V-Is and bring the interiors "up" to V-II spec.
Click to expand...

This is currently not funded and no one seems know if and when it will be funded.


----------



## PVD

The SL seatback single is why I always have a plug strip in my bag.Some of them have rims around them that make it very sifficult to plug in certain items. Last trip out on the CZ in June, I did see some older cars with new touch light switches and receptacles installed above the seat, but the receptacle was still a single.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you’re not, they’re not going anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Brian said, it seems like the plan is to eventually renovate the V-Is and bring the interiors "up" to V-II spec.
Click to expand...

As Jishnu mentioned, funding is an issue. The key word is “eventually”. I don’t think you have anything to worry about any time soon.


----------



## cocojacoby

PVD said:


> Based on the mockups I've seen, other than the toilet, differences are not huge.


I like the new color scheme. The tables are much bigger and more functional. There are more and better placed electrical outlets.

I was hoping the removal of the toilets would provide more floor space but I'm not sure that happened. It's a bit tight for two people to move around. Even better if the step could be flipped up.


----------



## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> PVD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the mockups I've seen, other than the toilet, differences are not huge.
> 
> 
> 
> The tables are much bigger and more functional. There are more and better placed electrical outlets.
Click to expand...

I don't think the tables are much bigger, and we're not getting any extra outlets. They've always had two.


----------



## PVD

since the toilet lid served as the step up to the upper bunk, or luggage storage the "box structure" still needs to be there. a flip up would be possible, but a more difficult design


----------



## JRR

I guess when this happens, we will have to upgrade to a bedroom to get a toilet in the room for the middle of the night necessaries.


----------



## cpotisch

JRR said:


> I guess when this happens, we will have to upgrade to a bedroom to get a toilet in the room for the middle of the night necessaries.


It certainly is going to widen the gap between roomette and bedroom. Once the V-IIs come along, perhaps the sentiment about Viewliners in the "Bedroom or roomette, if single and the cost is not an issue?" thread might change.


----------



## CHvision

I heard Viewliner I 8400 is in Chicago, will it be used for dining service on regular long distance routes in the future like LSL or Cardinal?


----------



## cpotisch

CHvision said:


> I heard Viewliner I 8400 is in Chicago, will it be used for dining service on regular long distance routes in the future like LSL or Cardinal?


I imagine if they need a diner, they'll put it into service. However, if they have enough V-II diners, they might as well use those instead of 8400. Remember that though the Cardinal doesn't use ViewDiners, the LSL does, and it's entirely possible that 8400 will end up on the latter under the current system.


----------



## bcanedy

CHvision said:


> I heard Viewliner I 8400 is in Chicago, will it be used for dining service on regular long distance routes in the future like LSL or Cardinal?


I spotted the 8400 in Chicago on the back of a train arriving from Carbondale. There were old baggage cars separating the 8400 from the Horizon Fleet coaches, so it’s safe to assume it was not in service.


----------



## Palmetto

bcanedy said:


> CHvision said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard Viewliner I 8400 is in Chicago, will it be used for dining service on regular long distance routes in the future like LSL or Cardinal?
> 
> 
> 
> I spotted the 8400 in Chicago on the back of a train arriving from Carbondale. There were old baggage cars separating the 8400 from the Horizon Fleet coaches, so it’s safe to assume it was not in service.
Click to expand...

Correct. It's being used in axle count service.


----------



## bratkinson

I just got off 449(19) having ridden BOS -》SPG. Walking from the station to get to my coach seat, I was surprised to see 8420 (Providence) bringing up the markers. I figured that's a super-efficient means of prevent lowly coach passengers from the baretable first class lounge. I was even more suprised to see the in-service V-II diner in its proper plce in front of the two sleepers with napkins and flatware set up for four at each table. Of course, I forgot the name and number before I got to my seat. I'll be on 448 CHI - SPG in 3 weeks and I'll get a better look as I walk through to the lounge car to get some real microwaved food.


----------



## cpotisch

bratkinson said:


> I was surprised to see 8420 (Providence) bringing up the markers.


You mean 68020?


----------



## KnightRail

bratkinson said:


> I just got off 449(19) having ridden BOS -》SPG. Walking from the station to get to my coach seat, I was surprised to see 8420 (Providence) bringing up the markers. I figured that's a super-efficient means of prevent lowly coach passengers from the baretable first class lounge. I was even more suprised to see the in-service V-II diner in its proper plce in front of the two sleepers with napkins and flatware set up for four at each table. Of course, I forgot the name and number before I got to my seat. I'll be on 448 CHI - SPG in 3 weeks and I'll get a better look as I walk through to the lounge car to get some real microwaved food.


Providence(68020) has been in the Lake Shore Limited pool since Sleeper Lounges were introduced. Its due for regularly scheduled maintenance, so it was pulled and is deadheading to a shop. Deadheading is a very common daily occurrence to get cars where they need to go. Hialeah FL(Miami) is the home shop of sorts for Viewliners so chances are it will be FL bound soon on a Silver Service train.


----------



## Palmetto

These days, it won't be going to Hialeah via Albany. Spuyten Duyvil bridge is out of service, and there's no way to get to Sunnyside, except via New Haven. So yes, these days, a deadhead viewliner in Renssalaer could be a surprise, unless it was destined to CAF??


----------



## KnightRail

Palmetto said:


> These days, it won't be going to Hialeah via Albany. Spuyten Duyvil bridge is out of service, and there's no way to get to Sunnyside, except via New Haven. So yes, these days, a deadhead viewliner in Renssalaer could be a surprise, unless it was destined to CAF??


Right, its going the whole way BOS-CHI, and then likely CHI-WAS and WAS-MIA. Thats the reverse route Jackson was sent up that way to swap it out. Boston, Albany, Sunnyside, Chicago, and Washington usually do not do preventative maintenance work on Viewliners.


----------



## cpotisch

Why not deadhead it on a regional to NYC or WAS, and put it on a Silver from there? Just seems inefficient to go through Chicago...


----------



## Thirdrail7

AmtrakBlue said:


> I’m coming for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1531590109.012347.jpg



You will be for sure. There has been a change in plans. The disrespect of the first state continues!



Thirdrail7 said:


> Here you go but I have to advise you this may be my last post....if AmtrakBlue catches me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here comes the the long delayed, "I'm not last" first state representative. I think this sign sums it up!
> 
> Here is the replacement:


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m coming for you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMG_1531590109.012347.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> You will be for sure. There has been a change in plans. The disrespect of the first state continues!
> 
> 
> 
> Thirdrail7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go but I have to advise you this may be my last post....if AmtrakBlue catches me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here comes the the long delayed, "I'm not last" first state representative. I think this sign sums it up!
> 
> Here is the replacement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Humph!
I guess it may end up being “and the first shall be last”.


----------



## cpotisch

So after this delivery, Dover, Frankfort, And Albany will be the only remaining diners. Are they going to bother with them, Thirdrail?


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Why not deadhead it on a regional to NYC or WAS, and put it on a Silver from there? Just seems inefficient to go through Chicago...


It depends on where the equipment is coming from, where it is going, how much dwell is allotted for the train, the train length and what kind of crews are available.

They basically try to make the moves where you have the crews and dwell time available. Additionally, they prefer end to end service. There is nothing inefficient about sending equipment on a train that originates intact at Boston to CHI, where it terminates intact. They can add it to the Capitol that turns intact to a train that terminates in WAS.

This is the thing I keep repeating that most of you don't understand. Not every train that "originates" at a station is made up at that station or terminal. A lot of them are "loopers," meaning they arrive, turn/loop/wye/run around and depart with little deviation. As such, they don't necessarily have the time for manipulation of the consist.

These are the considerations that are weighed when these decisions are made. How much time is there to get this is equipment between sets? Do we have the manpower at this facility? Do we have the equipment at another facility? Do we have the track space to store the equipment in the interim?

All of these things are weighed which why some moves have gone through SPG, some have gone to CHI while other have gone to BOS.

Since NYP only has one train that arrives from BOS and terminates, they are reluctant to use NYP since they don't want to tie up the terminal, that is undergoing construction with switching moves.


----------



## Acela150

cpotisch said:


> So after this delivery, Dover, Frankfort, And Albany will be the only remaining diners. Are they going to bother with them, Thirdrail?


Why wouldn't they??


----------



## cpotisch

Acela150 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So after this delivery, Dover, Frankfort, And Albany will be the only remaining diners. Are they going to bother with them, Thirdrail?
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't they??
Click to expand...

There was talk of them skipping a few and moving on to the bag-dorms, because they don’t really need more diners at this point.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So after this delivery, Dover, Frankfort, And Albany will be the only remaining diners. Are they going to bother with them, Thirdrail?
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't they??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was talk of them skipping a few and moving on to the bag-dorms, because they don’t really need more diners at this point.
Click to expand...

Where did you hear this talk outside of the echo chamber here? [emoji57]


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So after this delivery, Dover, Frankfort, And Albany will be the only remaining diners. Are they going to bother with them, Thirdrail?
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't they??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was talk of them skipping a few and moving on to the bag-dorms, because they don’t really need more diners at this point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where did you hear this talk outside of the echo chamber here? [emoji57]
Click to expand...

Thirdrail said otherwise, I'm not going to throw that out as "part of the echo chamber."


----------



## Acela150

Well considering that Albany is already been built I don't see why they wouldn't deliver it..


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So after this delivery, Dover, Frankfort, And Albany will be the only remaining diners. Are they going to bother with them, Thirdrail?
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't they??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was talk of them skipping a few and moving on to the bag-dorms, because they don’t really need more diners at this point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where did you hear this talk outside of the echo chamber here? [emoji57]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thirdrail said otherwise, I'm not going to throw that out as "part of the echo chamber."
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any plan to abandon the last three diners and I think you're mixing the message I sent. I assume you are referring to this:



Thirdrail7 said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The last three diners will not be out for a while, *but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.*
Click to expand...


There are three more diners that need to be delivered....but there IS a bag dorm emerging from the factory, meaning that bag dorms will be delivered before the last three diners.

That was my only message.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acela150 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So after this delivery, Dover, Frankfort, And Albany will be the only remaining diners. Are they going to bother with them, Thirdrail?
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't they??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There was talk of them skipping a few and moving on to the bag-dorms, because they don’t really need more diners at this point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where did you hear this talk outside of the echo chamber here? [emoji57]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thirdrail said otherwise, I'm not going to throw that out as "part of the echo chamber."
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of any plan to abandon the last three diners and I think you're mixing the message I sent. I assume you are referring to this:



Thirdrail7 said:


> AmtrakLKL said:
> 
> 
> 
> The last three diners will not be out for a while, *but they are still coming before any bag-dorms or sleepers.*
Click to expand...

Sorry. Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## daybeers

bratkinson said:


> I just got off 449(19) having ridden BOS -》SPG. Walking from the station to get to my coach seat, I was surprised to see 8420 (Providence) bringing up the markers. I figured that's a super-efficient means of prevent lowly coach passengers from the baretable first class lounge. I was even more suprised to see the in-service V-II diner in its proper plce in front of the two sleepers with napkins and flatware set up for four at each table. Of course, I forgot the name and number before I got to my seat. I'll be on 448 CHI - SPG in 3 weeks and I'll get a better look as I walk through to the lounge car to get some real microwaved food.


Sorry for being off-topic, but how's SPG doing?


----------



## keelhauled

Palmetto said:


> Correct. It's being used in axle count service.


As it still was this evening on the outbound Illini.


----------



## bratkinson

daybeers said:


> Sorry for being off-topic, but how's SPG doing?


The refurbed station looks great. There's not as many vendors as could be there, but there's a Dunkin Donuts, Subway, and a convenience store. Unfortunately, Amtrak STILL hasn't moved into the new quarters. Go figure. It also looks as if there's some construction going on for a couple platforms, but whether it's elevator installation and/or stairwells, I couldn't tell.


----------



## Palmetto

Special move today to the CAF plant in Elmira, NY to pick up three diners and a bag-dorm according to someone in the know on another forum.


----------



## Thirdrail7

It's a good thing you posted this. If you read the thread, I posted the direct date and somehow, people were scrambling on the wrong week! It is back to signs, Palmetto.

I would like to remind everyone that these moves will take place overnight. This is due to track work. The only daylight moves will occur on 448 from ALB-BOS (if it actually show up during the daylight




) and on 97(28). That's you, MGL and Penny. You're our best shots for pictures.


----------



## mgl1978

I think your saying the new car with be on the Silver Meteor this Saturday. It that's true I might try to catch it further north.


----------



## Acela150

mgl1978 said:


> I think your saying the new car with be on the Silver Meteor this Saturday. It that's true I might try to catch it further north.


Correct, south of WAS to MIA.


----------



## GBNorman

Are there any reports that the reportedly four cars have arrived at ALB?

As inferred at other postings, to get 'em on down to Miami, it will be "sport".

I'm at a loss to understand why the cars first must move to BOS on 448 (no ALB yard engine job for second trick?) rather than simply adding them to 449 for CHI. From CHI, they will move to WAS on 30 or 50 and eventually be added to 97 and off to Miami.

From there, they have to "soak up the sun" for likely a month while One Mass decides where to assign them (50-51, Cardinal, providing F&B - one LSA, cash free - for all on the train).

I'm fairly certain the Bag-Dorm was released for training Mechanical and On-Board employees. Likely it will "make rounds" to BOS, CHI, and NOL for same.


----------



## PVD

The rationale for why the moves are done the way they are was laid out by TR7 last week.


----------



## GBNorman

Thirdrail7 said:


> This is the thing I keep repeating that most of you don't understand....Do we have the manpower at this facility? Do we have the equipment.


I guess where I remain at a loss is why must delivered cars first make a trip to BOS "over the Hills burning up gas" when they will have to be added to one consist or the other to start their journey to HIA via CHI. Again, the only thing coming to my mind is that there is no Second Trick Yard Engine @ ALB.
While I guess this is outside Third Rail's "Sunnyside Beat", even if such, he likely can affirm if this be the case.


----------



## Thirdrail7

GBNorman said:


> Are there any reports that the reportedly four cars have arrived at ALB?



They've arrived, been looked over and two of them are on 448(24) headed to BOS. The other two follow tomorrow.



GBNorman said:


> From there, they have to "soak up the sun" for likely a month while One Mass decides where to assign them (50-51, Cardinal, providing F&B - one LSA, cash free - for all on the train).
> 
> I'm fairly certain the Bag-Dorm was released for training Mechanical and On-Board employees. Likely it will "make rounds" to BOS, CHI, and NOL for same.



You're probably correct. Since this will be the first form of a VIEW II sleeping accommodation, it will probably make the grand tour. Hopefully, it will make the eventual introduction of the sleepers easier.



GBNorman said:


> I guess where I remain at a loss is why must delivered cars first make a trip to BOS "over the Hills burning up gas" when they will have to be added to one consist or the other to start their journey to HIA via CHI. Again, the only thing coming to my mind is that there is no Second Trick Yard Engine @ ALB.
> While I guess this is outside Third Rail's "Sunnyside Beat", even if such, he likely can affirm if this be the case.



ALbany has 24/7 yard crew coverage. It is quicker and easier to make the move with single level equipment. While to the route to BOS may have more mountains, it is a scant 200 miles from ALB-BOS, then a quick 457 miles from BOS-WAS, pulled by an electric engine

Going west, it is 818 miles from ALB-CHI and 780 from CHI-WAS. The trip is almost 1000 miles longer and uses diesels on all legs. Talk about "burning up gas!"

Logistically, if you go through CHI, you're pressuring them to make the same day swap between 449 and 30 or delay the shipment by one day. Additionally, pointing is an issue since the cars would HAVE to go against the baggage car since they are single level equipment and it won't mix with the Superliner equipment without the transdorm.

When you ship them to BOS, they have time to assemble them, keep them over night and travel on 65 to WAS, where they can make an easy, same day connection to 97, with minimal storage in WAS.


----------



## jis

I guess GBN missed the bit about going directly from BOS to WAS on 65/67. He surmised they would go to CHI no matter what.


----------



## west point

3rd rail though that it might have sent Bag dorm to CHI to do a "grand tour " for mechanical . CHI, BEE, CHI , WASH, ? Guess that maybe later bag dorms ?


----------



## KnightRail

Thirdrail7 said:


> GBNorman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any reports that the reportedly four cars have arrived at ALB?
> 
> 
> 
> They've arrived, been looked over and two of them are on 448(24) headed to BOS. The other two follow tomorrow.
Click to expand...

 That new rail-car smell is refreshing. The bag-dorm rooms are very nice. They are going to put the Viewliner I rooms to shame.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

> That new rail-car smell is refreshing. The bag-dorm rooms are very nice. They are going to put the Viewliner I rooms to shame.


That would be nice, no rattling, doors that stay close, but the location of the bathroom will be a issue.

The great bathroom debate will be restarting in 5-4-3.....


----------



## KnightRail

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> That new rail-car smell is refreshing. The bag-dorm rooms are very nice. They are going to put the Viewliner I rooms to shame.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be nice, no rattling, doors that stay close, but the location of the bathroom will be a issue.
> The great bathroom debate will be restarting in 5-4-3.....
Click to expand...

People can and will have to get over the bathrooms. The concept has worked all this time on the Superliners. The new debate will be the room door locks.


----------



## Cho Cho Charlie

KnightRail said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That new rail-car smell is refreshing. The bag-dorm rooms are very nice. They are going to put the Viewliner I rooms to shame.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be nice, no rattling, doors that stay close, but the location of the bathroom will be a issue.
> The great bathroom debate will be restarting in 5-4-3.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People can and will have to get over the bathrooms. The concept has worked all this time on the Superliners. The new debate will be the room door locks.
Click to expand...

No. Stupid decisions will always make for great fodder for righteous debates. That will be true for as long as there are any VLII sleepers remaining in service (let's pray it will not be for that long).


----------



## Ryan

What decision is it that you think is stupid?


----------



## Trogdor

I'm confused about the "as long as there are any VLII sleepers remaining in service (let's pray it will not be for that long)" comment. Seeing as how the first one hasn't been delivered yet, and these cars are supposed to have 30+ year lifespans, that comment is just...odd.


----------



## Steve4031

Amtrak can’t win with toilet location on view liners. In the room, oh the room is filthy because the train hit a switch at 79 mph on csx and the adjacent chair got a spray that was never cleaned. And what to do with 2 in a room . . . Put the toilet at the end of the hall, oh no, I have to get up and go use the toilet down the hall . . . Which imho is a clueless response on herd because most of us know about superliners.


----------



## jis

IMHO moans about problem with toilet at the end of the hall instead of in a cramped closet are worthy of being ignored. Life will go on, and maybe one or two will refuse to ride in Roomettes in a huff. That's life and it will go on.

Reasonable decisions also do lead often to stupid debates



It all depends on ones vantage point I suppose


----------



## CHvision

Springfield and Tallahassee (the last two diners) are on the rear of Amtrak train 161


----------



## jis

There still are a few more Diners yet to be delivered. The ones that were skipped.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

jis said:


> There still are a few more Diners yet to be delivered. The ones that were skipped.


Including Dover - if they deem to be kind enough to deliver it. (had to get that in before TR7 did



)


----------



## jis

AmtrakBlue said:


> jis said:
> 
> 
> 
> There still are a few more Diners yet to be delivered. The ones that were skipped.
> 
> 
> 
> Including Dover - if they deem to be kind enough to deliver it. (had to get that in before TR7 did
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
Click to expand...

Surprising that something from Delaware .... etc. .... etc.


----------



## AmtrakBlue




----------



## Ryan

You got a haircut?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Ryan said:


> You got a haircut?


You noticed!


----------



## Agent

Video from The [Transport Net] of Amtrak #161 passing through Bronx with _Springfield_ and _Tallahassee_ on the end.


----------



## Palmetto

Nice! Just west of Pelham Bay.


----------



## sitzplatz17

Got a glimpse of Springfield and Tallahassee being pulled to Ivy City with the rest of 161 late last night: 


I would guess they’ll likely go on the back of one of the silvers today?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

sitzplatz17 said:


> Got a glimpse of Springfield and Tallahassee being pulled to Ivy City with the rest of 161 late last night:
> 
> I would guess they’ll likely go on the back of one of the silvers today?


Should be going on 97 today.


----------



## jis

All four cars are on the 97(29) as is engine 42. I will post pictures after I get back home this evening.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I still wonder what they will do with these dining cars. They could add them to diner lite service on the Cardinal. If they want to use it as a lounge for the Star, they'll need one more.


----------



## IndyLions

Thirdrail7 said:


> I still wonder what they will do with these dining cars. They could add them to diner lite service on the Cardinal. If they want to use it as a lounge for the Star, they'll need one more.


Selfishly, my vote is for the Cardinal. I’ve only been in one of the new cars once - breakfast on an abbreviated ride LYH-WAS on the Crescent. It was a heck of a nice car. If they put it on the Card - I’ll be able to enjoy it this fall on one of my autumn trips to the Windy City.


----------



## jis

Here are a few shots if the new cars. 97 at Winter Park had in all 9 Viewliners today and 6 Amfleet IIs. It was a long train

Bag Dorm




Tallahassee




Springfield




Bag Dorm




Concord




I have a very good video of it arriving. I will share it when I get a chance soon.


----------



## cocojacoby

Nice job and nice looking cars!


----------



## jis

Here is the video I promised:

https://youtu.be/LpBcN5EFtS8

One thing I noticed is that even the newest cars have Columbia Casting (ex-Buckeye) components in their GSI trucks. This implies that Columbia Casting may have fulfilled its contract for the trucks of the entire Viewliner II order before going out of business.


----------



## Palmland

98 this morning had two DH diners. They were on the head end so I wonder if they will be dropped off at Washington for the Cardinal??


----------



## KnightRail

Palmland said:


> 98 this morning had two DH diners. They were on the head end so I wonder if they will be dropped off at Washington for the Cardinal??


Those were V1 sleepers.


----------



## PVD

Did Amsted buy the rights to the GSI designs? Perhaps the later ones were done by them, which would (partially) account for some of the delays when they took the line. I'm just speculating, I do see the GSI designs offered on their website now, and we know they aren't coming from CSC. Curious...


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> Just-Thinking-51 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That new rail-car smell is refreshing. The bag-dorm rooms are very nice. They are going to put the Viewliner I rooms to shame.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be nice, no rattling, doors that stay close, but the location of the bathroom will be a issue.The great bathroom debate will be restarting in 5-4-3.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People can and will have to get over the bathrooms. The concept has worked all this time on the Superliners. The new debate will be the room door locks.
Click to expand...

What’s happening with the door locks?


----------



## cpotisch

What is that extra upper window on the bag-dorms for?


----------



## Ziv

Conductors have been issued sextants and they will be using that window to shoot sights at high noon, GMT. They have found that the GPS units were too sloppy and could be off by several meters, so they have decided to go back to the more accurate celestial navigation methods.



cpotisch said:


> What is that extra upper window on the bag-dorms for?


----------



## cocojacoby

cpotisch said:


> What is that extra upper window on the bag-dorms for?


Shower room I believe.


----------



## PVD

I actually liked the sextant line....


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> What is that extra upper window on the bag-dorms for?


So the crew can eat their "fresh choices" meals as they watch the lines of freights go by as they sit for hours on a siding only big enough to fit Amtrak trains.


----------



## PVD

In looking at the picture again, do I see 5 lower and 6 upper? i was figuring 5 per side for 10 mods (8 room mod 1 toilet mod one shower mod ) which would make one extra visible. But not knowing the actual layout, that's just a guess. Has anyone seen an actual floor plan or been inside?


----------



## cpotisch

me_little_me said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is that extra upper window on the bag-dorms for?
> 
> 
> 
> So the crew can eat their "fresh choices" meals as they watch the lines of freights go by as they sit for hours on a siding only big enough to fit Amtrak trains.
Click to expand...

Well played.


----------



## Bob Dylan

I know it's tongue in cheek, but the Crew doesn't get to eat the Fresh and Contemporary Meals, they provide their own REAL Food!


----------



## VT Hokie

cpotisch said:


> What is that extra upper window on the bag-dorms for?


Shower module. On the Viewliner I sleepers, the shower module has two full windows with the lower one glazed over. On the IIs, the shower location only gets an upper window.


----------



## cpotisch

VT Hokie said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is that extra upper window on the bag-dorms for?
> 
> 
> 
> Shower module. On the Viewliner I sleepers, the shower module has two full windows with the lower one glazed over. On the IIs, the shower location only gets an upper window.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I've never showered on a Viewliner so I forgot that it had a window.


----------



## PVD

The shower makes complete sense, but I just feel like I'm missing something in my count. Why would there be 6 on one side? That would be 4 on the other side. Keep all plumbing on one side? Just guessing, as I said I have seen neither floorplan or interior shots.


----------



## cpotisch

A diner (can't tell which one) and the 69000 bag-dorm deadheading on 65:


----------



## jis

On 97 the Bag Dorm was paired with Concord, so that might have been the case on 65 too.


----------



## cocojacoby

PVD said:


> The shower makes complete sense, but I just feel like I'm missing something in my count. Why would there be 6 on one side? That would be 4 on the other side. Keep all plumbing on one side? Just guessing, as I said I have seen neither floorplan or interior shots.


I see what you are saying. 5 roomettes and 1 shower on one side BUT only 4 roomettes on the other side. There is no window next to the vestibule on the 4 window side, so we will assume that is the restroom module? Also we will assume that there is a door and wall between the baggage area and the sleeper rooms that runs perpendicular across the car. So there has to be something across from that shower room. What would it be? Storage? Mechanicals? We need to see a floorplan I guess to see what's there.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

I believe the 2 bathrooms take up the space of 1 roomette.

You can see the various rooms here: http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> I believe the 2 bathrooms take up the space of 1 roomette.
> 
> You can see the various rooms here: http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html


From everything I've heard, that's correct. So assuming that all the double windows are roomettes, the single upper window is the shower, and there are two bathrooms, then there is space for *something* else across from the shower. Hmmm...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/68653-new-viewliner-ii-baggage-dorm-cars/


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/68653-new-viewliner-ii-baggage-dorm-cars/


Yes, but that was around two years ago, and they've made modifications since.


----------



## railiner

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the 2 bathrooms take up the space of 1 roomette.
> 
> You can see the various rooms here: http://www.railplan.com/caf---amtrak-viewliner-ii.html
> 
> 
> 
> From everything I've heard, that's correct. So assuming that all the double windows are roomettes, the single upper window is the shower, and there are two bathrooms, then there is space for *something* else across from the shower. Hmmm...
Click to expand...

Could there be a conductor 'office' in that location?


----------



## Acela150

No. The so called “office” is in the lounge car.


----------



## Palmetto

Acela150 said:


> No. The so called “office” is in the lounge car.


So we've heard! Sometimes 2 or 3 tables worth!


----------



## Steve4031

Bob Dylan said:


> I know it's tongue in cheek, but the Crew doesn't get to eat the Fresh and Contemporary Meals, they provide their own REAL Food![emoji848]


When I was on the OTOl railfest I saw the crew meet somebody from a local barbecue establishment to pick up food for the crew on 1 at new Iberia. One crew member took orders from crew members wanting to participate and called ahead.


----------



## PRR 60

A bunch of posts regarding the bag/dorm car, starting with an unattributed use of another member's image and resulting comments have been removed.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Steve4031 said:


> Bob Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know it's tongue in cheek, but the Crew doesn't get to eat the Fresh and Contemporary Meals, they provide their own REAL Food![emoji848]
> 
> 
> 
> When I was on the OTOl railfest I saw the crew meet somebody from a local barbecue establishment to pick up food for the crew on 1 at new Iberia. One crew member took orders from crew members wanting to participate and called ahead.
Click to expand...

Happens in Taylor too on the Texas Eagle!The Chicago crews love them some Texas Q!


----------



## railiner

That sort of thing has been going on for years...in fact, when the diner's had real fresh ingredients, and chef's that knew what to do with them, they would often prepare 'off-the-menu' items for the crew's only, to dine on...not sure if it was "allowed" officially, or not, but it did go on....


----------



## OBS

railiner said:


> That sort of thing has been going on for years...in fact, when the diner's had real fresh ingredients, and chef's that knew what to do with them, they would often prepare 'off-the-menu' items for the crew's only, to dine on...not sure if it was "allowed" officially, or not, but it did go on....


Those were the days......it was great...


----------



## cocojacoby

Just watched this youtube video and it gives a good look at the new Viewliner dinner (2:50 - 4:28). Since it looks like the crew is as usual taking up two tables for setup and their own personal belongings (losing 8 seats) and the huge ADA area now takes up 6 more, the traditional 48 seat diner is now reduced to 34 seats!

No wonder Amtrak is losing money on their food service. This train often has 5 coaches and 3 sleepers full of hungry captive people. This is a setup for failure.


----------



## GBNorman

railiner said:


> ....when the Diners had real fresh ingredients, and chef's that knew what to do with them, they would often prepare 'off-the-menu' items for the crew's only,


"Crew Hash" had been a staple of pre-Amtrak Diners, and I'm sure the practice continued into the Amtrak era.


----------



## railiner

cocojacoby said:


> Just watched this youtube video and it gives a good look at the new Viewliner dinner (2:50 - 4:28). Since it looks like the crew is as usual taking up two tables for setup and their own personal belongings (losing 8 seats) and the huge ADA area now takes up 6 more, the traditional 48 seat diner is now reduced to 34 seats!
> 
> No wonder Amtrak is losing money on their food service. This train often has 5 coaches and 3 sleepers full of hungry captive people. This is a setup for failure.


I didn't know diner's had 'ADA' area's....


----------



## tricia

railiner said:


> Just watched this youtube video and it gives a good look at the new Viewliner dinner (2:50 - 4:28). Since it looks like the crew is as usual taking up two tables for setup and their own personal belongings (losing 8 seats) and the huge ADA area now takes up 6 more, the traditional 48 seat diner is now reduced to 34 seats!
> 
> No wonder Amtrak is losing money on their food service. This train often has 5 coaches and 3 sleepers full of hungry captive people. This is a setup for failure.



Yes. IIRC, one table at the end of the car has bench seating on only one side. The other is open, to a largish open area at the end of the car, so that someone in a wheelchair can roll up to the table. The open area is also useful for passengers standing while waiting to be seated.


----------



## railiner

Seems like it would be very difficult to move thru a train in a wheelchair...and now, since the diner fare is hardly worth making the trip, it would seem all the more reason to have attendant get the meal for a person using a wheelchair...


----------



## Ryan

The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.


----------



## cocojacoby

Ryan said:


> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.


That's great for only ONE person. What about the ADA passengers in the other two sleepers? Amtrak should have drawn the line and said it would be unfair to offer such to only 1 out of three ADA passengers and they would offer room service to all.

This really makes no sense.


----------



## Ziv

I don't know. I look at the handicapped parking spaces in my town and the vast majority of them are not in use. Is it possible that Amtrak is in a similar position in which they may have 3 handicapped accessible rooms but usually only have one, or none, occupied by a person in a chair? That having been said, even if the parking lot handicapped spaces are generally not in use, there will always be a situation where there aren't enough of them. It may not happen often, but it will happen. And that goes for handicapped rooms vs. tables available for people in a wheelchair on the diner. I guess the diner staff could take seat reservations for 3 people in chairs one after the other though. Can they do 3 seatings or only 2? Or ask them to share the accessible table with both their spouses... Nah...



cocojacoby said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.
> 
> 
> 
> That's great for only ONE person. What about the ADA passengers in the other two sleepers? Amtrak should have drawn the line and said it would be unfair to offer such to only 1 out of three ADA passengers and they would offer room service to all.
> 
> This really makes no sense.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ryan

cocojacoby said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.
> 
> 
> 
> That's great for only ONE person. What about the ADA passengers in the other two sleepers? Amtrak should have drawn the line and said it would be unfair to offer such to only 1 out of three ADA passengers and they would offer room service to all.
> This really makes no sense.
Click to expand...

They do offer room service to all.

This gives an additional opportunity for someone with mobility issues a chance to eat in the diner.

How is that a bad thing? Whinging about "fairness" doesn't make any sense.


----------



## PVD

They need the vestibule regardless of the H room.


----------



## PVD

You can't have an aisle wide enough for standard wheelchair access from adjoining sleepers. It is a step up from the situation in a Superliner. Mobility limitations means more than wheelchairs


----------



## VT Hokie

Some good floorplan renderings here:

https://www.coroflot.com/jmichel/AMTRAK-CAF-VIEWLINER-2-INTERIORS


----------



## cpotisch

tricia said:


> Just watched this youtube video and it gives a good look at the new Viewliner dinner (2:50 - 4:28). Since it looks like the crew is as usual taking up two tables for setup and their own personal belongings (losing 8 seats) and the huge ADA area now takes up 6 more, the traditional 48 seat diner is now reduced to 34 seats!
> 
> No wonder Amtrak is losing money on their food service. This train often has 5 coaches and 3 sleepers full of hungry captive people. This is a setup for failure.


You are 100% correct. There is a table at the end of the car closest to the sleepers with a large area for a wheelchair to pull up on one side, and the regular bench on the other side.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.


Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?


----------



## west point

Had wheel chair friend who was determined to ride a train. After much discussion came to conclusion that she would rent a wheel chair that had only 24" side to side. Said it worked great and was happy to only have to pay $25.00 to rent the chair.


----------



## neroden

I think my girlfriend's wheelchair is about 24" wide. I should measure.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?
Click to expand...

The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.

Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.
> 
> Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?
Click to expand...

They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.


----------



## Ryan

I'm not going to debate the unknowable thought process behind the design with you. Believe what you wish.

My statement concerned how the trains are made up, and remains factually correct.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.
> Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.
Click to expand...

Really!?! You have heard of ADA haven’t you? If not, educate yourself on providing accessibility to those who have disabilities. Someday you may need ADA yourself.


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really!?! You have heard of ADA haven’t you? If not, educate yourself on providing accessibility to those who have disabilities. Someday you may need ADA yourself.
Click to expand...

Where did I say that I don’t support the ADA or providing disabled passengers with appropriate accommodation. Where did I say that?


----------



## PVD

Ryan is making sense. The H room needs to be where it is so you can get someone on the car and into the room, matter which direction it faces. Only the first VL needs to be pointed at the diner, because it needs the vestibule. Meals brought to your seat or to your room is offered. Certain LD trains will allow transfer to the lounge car at certain stops for passengers with wheeled mobility devices. This seems to satisfy the present requirement.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> Only the first VL needs to be pointed at the diner, because it needs the vestibule.


Actually, all the VLs have to be pointed at the diner, because each sleeper only has one vestibule and has to put its vestibule next to the car in front of it.


----------



## PVD

What would happen if it was end to end as long as a vestibule pointed to the diner ?


----------



## jis

PVD said:


> What would happen if it was end to end as long as a vestibule pointed to the diner ?


Because the Diner does not have egress at least one vestibule has to be adjacent to the Diner. Other than that I don’t think there is any mandatory requirements. Indeed I have seen mixed orientation Viewliners in a consist.


----------



## PVD

Thanks. that is exactly my point. As long as the adjacent car provides a vestibule, the others don't matter. The Boston section sleeper of the LSL when the train splits certainly doesn't abut the other VL sleepers


----------



## AmtrakBlue

cpotisch said:


> AmtrakBlue said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The trains are made up so that the end of the sleeping car containing the H room is attached to the end of the diner where the accessible seating resides.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that just because Viewliner Sleepers have the H room at the end of the car closest to the vestibule, so it has to be closest to the diner?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The fact that the vestibule is there also was previously mentioned.Do you think that it’s a coincidence that the vestibule, H Room, and accessible seating are all in the same place?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Really!?! You have heard of ADA haven’t you? If not, educate yourself on providing accessibility to those who have disabilities. Someday you may need ADA yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where did I say that I don’t support the ADA or providing disabled passengers with appropriate accommodation. Where did I say that?
Click to expand...

By saying this:

"They pretty much had to put the accessible table at the sleeper end of the diner, since they couldn't fit such a large and easily accessible area next to the kitchen and narrow aisle. And it wouldn't make sense to put such a large room (the H room) between the Bedrooms and the roomettes. *So I don't think that the H room and accessible table were specifically positioned to be as close to each other as possible. Rather, it was just where they had to fit them.*"

Did it occur to you that they did it so that someone in the H room could easily access the dining car and an accessible table, not because the rooms/tables didn't "fit" anywhere else? I imagine ADA had something to do with this.


----------



## PVD

(2) Single-level dining and lounge cars shall have at least one connecting doorway complying with §38.113(a)(2) of this part connected to a car accessible to persons using wheelchairs or mobility aids, and at least one space complying with §§38.125(d) (2) and (3) of this part, to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair, and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.

(3) Bi-level dining cars shall comply with §§38.113(a)(2), 38.115(b), 38.117(a), and 38.121 of this part.

(4) Bi-level lounge cars shall have doors on the lower level, on each side of the car from which passengers board, complying with §38.113, a restroom complying with §38.123, and at least one space complying with §38.125(d) (2) and (3) to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.

(5) Restrooms, complying with §38.123 shall be provided in single-level rail passenger coaches and food services cars adjacent to the accessible seating locations required by paragraph (d) of this section. Accessible restrooms are required in dining and lounge cars only if restrooms are provided for other passengers.


----------



## PVD

If the sleeper wasn't there, it (the diner) would still be required to have the vestibule. The accessible space must be in a spot where a wheelchair can access it, but nothing requires it to be a sleeper and its H room. In practical terms though diners are not in use on any trains without sleepers, and the diners are either primarily or exclusively for the use of the sleeper passengers so it is the most reasonable setup. H room in the Boston section of the LSL when it runs normally will almost definitely not get to the wheelchair position in the diner with a standard width. chair or walker.


----------



## cocojacoby

PVD said:


> (2) Single-level dining and lounge cars shall have at least one connecting doorway complying with §38.113(a)(2) of this part connected to a car accessible to persons using wheelchairs or mobility aids, and at least one space complying with §§38.125(d) (2) and (3) of this part, to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair, and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.
> 
> (3) Bi-level dining cars shall comply with §§38.113(a)(2), 38.115(b), 38.117(a), and 38.121 of this part.
> 
> (4) Bi-level lounge cars shall have doors on the lower level, on each side of the car from which passengers board, complying with §38.113, a restroom complying with §38.123, and at least one space complying with §38.125(d) (2) and (3) to provide table service to a person who wishes to remain in his or her wheelchair and space to fold and store a wheelchair for a person who wishes to transfer to an existing seat.
> 
> (5) Restrooms, complying with §38.123 shall be provided in single-level rail passenger coaches and food services cars adjacent to the accessible seating locations required by paragraph (d) of this section. Accessible restrooms are required in dining and lounge cars only if restrooms are provided for other passengers.


So how does a Superliner Bi-level dining car (#3) comply with this?

Obviously the Pacific Parlor Cars did not comply. Wonder if that was part of their demise.

Interestingly, it seems like the people who wrote the regulations realized that traditional dining in a railroad dining car was an integral part of train travel. Too bad Amtrak doesn't feel that way.


----------



## Ryan

You have to go and look what "§§38.113(a)(2), 38.115(b), 38.117(a), and 38.121" each say:



38.113(a)(2) said:


> (2) Doorways at ends of cars connecting two adjacent cars, to the maximum extent practicable in accordance with regulations issued under the Federal Railroad Safety Act of 1970 ( 49 CFR parts 229 and 231), shall have a clear opening width of 32 inches to permit wheelchair and mobility aid users to enter into a single-level dining car, if available.





38.115(b) said:


> (b) Where provided, handrails and stanchions shall be sufficient to permit safe boarding, on-board circulation, seating and standing assistance, and alighting by persons with disabilities.





38.117(a) said:


> (a) Floor surfaces on aisles, step treads and areas where wheelchair and mobility aid users are to be accommodated shall be slip-resistant.





38.121 said:


> Each car shall be equipped with a public address system permitting transportation system personnel, or recorded or digitized human speech messages, to announce stations and provide other passenger information. Alternative systems or devices which provide equivalent access are also permitted.


None of those things seem like they are unobtainable for a Superliner to me. I've not taken a measuring tape to the doorways, though.

Edit: Link to the relevant section of code if you wish to review it further: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/38.111


----------



## PVD

Some people believe they see something that isn''t there. As you have pointed out, the things a SL car must do are not a big deal. There is no requirement to make the upper level "easily" reachable. That's why wheelchair seating,is downstairs in the coaches, the H room is downstairs in the sleepers. Service to the room or at the seat is offered.


----------



## jis

Also there is no assumption that a Dining Car be present. There is that phrase “if present” tucked in there. [emoji57]


----------



## cpotisch

Ok, so 23 diners have been delivered, right? I think I've lost track at this point.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Ok, so 23 diners have been delivered, right? I think I've lost track at this point.


I count 22 with 68000, 68010 and 68011 outstanding.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so 23 diners have been delivered, right? I think I've lost track at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> I count 22 with 68000, 68010 and 68011 outstanding.
Click to expand...

With 68010 bringing up the rear???


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so 23 diners have been delivered, right? I think I've lost track at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> I count 22 with 68000, 68010 and 68011 outstanding.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I always forget about Albany.


----------



## Ryan

Most New Yorkers do.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> Most New Yorkers do.


The more I think about this, the more I realize how true it is.


----------



## jis

Ryan said:


> Most New Yorkers do.


Yeah. Who cares about those hapless Albanians ... of Albany of course? [emoji51]


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Of course, those of us who live in New Jersey get the greatest insult--the only state capital that does not have a dining car named after it. (Who wants to eat in Trenton?



)

I am excited that I will be seeing Albany in person for the first time this fall, especially now that I have located a store that sells local homemade donuts just half a block from my hotel.


----------



## PVD

Trenton Makes-The World Takes, a scenic high point on the NYP-WAS ride.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Actually, for those of us who live in the state, that sign is an extremely depressing constant reminder that Trenton used to be a thriving city that produced goods from iron to lovely ceramics and pottery. And that it is now a dreadful place, with no hope of coming back.


----------



## cpotisch

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Of course, those of us who live in New Jersey get the greatest insult--the only state capital that does not have a dining car named after it. (Who wants to eat in Trenton?
> 
> 
> 
> )


You're welcome.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Good grief--where did that come from?



In the beginning they said all the capitals would have one except Trenton, and Trenton would be held in reserve if another was needed. Maybe they meant they would make a Trenton one but not put it out on the rails unless necessary?

Thanks for finding this, cpotisch



--where was it?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Good grief--where did that come from?
> 
> 
> 
> In the beginning they said all the capitals would have one except Trenton, and Trenton would be held in reserve if another was needed. Maybe they meant they would make a Trenton one but not put it out on the rails unless necessary?
> 
> Thanks for finding this, cpotisch
> 
> 
> 
> --where was it?


Photoshopped


----------



## PVD

As Sylvester the Cat (or his voice artist Rudy Giuliani) might say "I thawt I thaw a photoshop....


----------



## jis

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Good grief--where did that come from?
> 
> 
> 
> In the beginning they said all the capitals would have one except Trenton, and Trenton would be held in reserve if another was needed. Maybe they meant they would make a Trenton one but not put it out on the rails unless necessary?
> 
> Thanks for finding this, cpotisch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --where was it?


Fake news


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Darn--fooled me completely!





Never occurred to me to question it....I think I'd better stick to working with words



.

Anyway, thank you, cpotisch, for giving my state a dining car (even if it is not for real!)


----------



## cpotisch

AmtrakBlue said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief--where did that come from?
> 
> 
> 
> In the beginning they said all the capitals would have one except Trenton, and Trenton would be held in reserve if another was needed. Maybe they meant they would make a Trenton one but not put it out on the rails unless necessary?
> 
> Thanks for finding this, cpotisch
> 
> 
> 
> --where was it?
> 
> 
> 
> Photoshopped
Click to expand...

Technically Pixelmator-ed.


----------



## Ziv

That was cruel. And I think we all got a laugh out of it, including MRD. LOL!

On edit: From the way you responded it was obvious that you were laughing too, MRD, or I wouldn't have made the comment. ;-) The sequence of comments was very cool. Now if we could just build new Amtrak rolling stock by photoshopping them into existence...



cpotisch said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, those of us who live in New Jersey get the greatest insult--the only state capital that does not have a dining car named after it. (Who wants to eat in Trenton?
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> post-3057-0-12361900-1524103590.png
Click to expand...


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

It's okay, Ziv--I did get a laugh out of it, and took it in the fun spirit intended.


----------



## RPC

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Darn--fooled me completely!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never occurred to me to question it....I think I'd better stick to working with words
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Anyway, thank you, cpotisch, for giving my state a dining car (even if it is not for real!)


Whats' not for real - the dining car or the state? (I live right across the Delaware, where NJ-baiting is considered a sport...)


----------



## PVD

It is good to see a little good natured humor once in a while......


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Sometimes a bit of goofiness is a nice break (before we all go back to trying to fix Amtrak



).

Getting ready to leave work for the weekend, so maybe I'll photoshop myself onto that Trenton dining car and have them take me up to Albany to find the homemade donut shop!


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> As Sylvester the Cat (or his voice artist Rudy Giuliani) might say "I thawt I thaw a photoshop....


Sylvester doesnt say that. Youre thinking of Tweety.


----------



## cpotisch

It’s funny - I had thought it was reasonably clear when I posted it that I had just found a picture of a ViewDiner and slapped Trenton onto the nameplate. Sorry I didn't make it clearer. Nonetheless, I’m glad that some of y'all got a kick out of it.


----------



## PVD

Sufferin' Succotash, you are right.....(and yes Daffy Duck said that from time to time as well as Sylvester)......


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

cpotisch--

You weren't to know, but my technology skills are about even with switching from a quill pen to a plastic ballpoint one--I am way behind the curve (partly on purpose--I never want a smartphone, for example) and wouldn't recognize something was a fake photo unless it jumped up and patted me on the head.



(Well, one exception--even I got the Gov. Christie in the beach chair posted all over!



)

But I got a good laugh out of your post, especially when I realized it wasn't a real dining car (learning to laugh at yourself is one of the best lessons I ever learned, and it comes in handy for me a lot!) and I think everyone else did, too!


----------



## PVD

One never knows....I have a friend who doesn't have a computer at home. People make fun of his failure to try and understand modern things. What they don't know is he has masters in mathematics, is responsible for computer monitoring of billions of dollars in currency flow every day. Why no computer - "If they knew I had one I'd be working 24hrs a day, because of Europe and Asia time zones"....I try not to judge what people are truly capable of, by what they choose to embrace.


----------



## Bob Dylan

PVD said:


> One never knows....I have a friend who doesn't have a computer at home. People make fun of his failure to try and understand modern things. What they don't know is he has masters in mathematics, is responsible for computer monitoring of billions of dollars in currency flow every day. Why no computer - "If they knew I had one I'd be working 24hrs a day, because of Europe and Asia time zones"....I try not to judge what people are truly capable of, by what they choose to embrace.


More people need to follow this Model and leave their job @ the office, especially while on Vacation!


----------



## PVD

It's a bit of a paradox, he patently refuses to bring work home, but it is not unusual for him to work til 9 at night, or on a Saturday as quarterlies approach. I know he is there at least 40 years, because they gave him a tv for 40 years, and I swapped his cable box and rewired it because he didn't have HDTV and the new one was. Maufacturers merge with Hanover, merge with Chemical merge with Chase merge with JP Morgan to form JP Morgan Chase. Still there, either really good at what he does or has pictures of his bosses with farm animals. (or both)


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

When I was working full-time, I did not have a computer at home for the same reason--so no one could get me for an overnight project. (I was expected to come in on weekends if needed, but that happened rarely.)

Now I don't have a computer at home because I can use the one at work or the library, and it will be someone else's headache if it isn't working properly.

And now that I work part-time, I love working on the weekends! (The ability to say "no" if I want is a great incentive!)

We seem to have wandered just a bit from the main theme, so I'll see if I can transport us back there. In spite of my snarky remarks about Trenton, I believe "Trenton" was not used to name a dining car because they were naming the state capitals in alphabetical order. Trenton is at the end of the list, and they ran out of cars before they got to it.


----------



## cpotisch

Mystic River Dragon said:


> We seem to have wandered just a bit from the main theme, so I'll see if I can transport us back there. In spite of my snarky remarks about Trenton, I believe "Trenton" was not used to name a dining car because they were naming the state capitals in alphabetical order. Trenton is at the end of the list, and they ran out of cars before they got to it.


Oh wow. I didn't know that, but that makes perfect sense. Did you figure that one out or hear it from someone else?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> Mystic River Dragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have wandered just a bit from the main theme, so I'll see if I can transport us back there. In spite of my snarky remarks about Trenton, I believe "Trenton" was not used to name a dining car because they were naming the state capitals in alphabetical order. Trenton is at the end of the list, and they ran out of cars before they got to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow. I didn't know that, but that makes perfect sense. Did you figure that one out or hear it from someone else?
Click to expand...

Amtrak clearly said so in its original announcement of the proposed names of the cars. It should not be a mystery for those who managed to follow things that far back regarding this seemingly forever running saga.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Oh darn, jis--you posted before I got a chance to say that I figured it out all by myself!





I had forgotten where I had seen it, but you're right--it was when Amtrak announced the proposed car names.

Doing it in alphabetical order was fair and logical.

It is also the reason that we all now remember that Annapolis is the capital of Maryland, since we've seen that car a lot.



(Although I don't remember seeing Albany--do they go to their part of the country if possible?)


----------



## MikefromCrete

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh darn, jis--you posted before I got a chance to say that I figured it out all by myself!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had forgotten where I had seen it, but you're right--it was when Amtrak announced the proposed car names.
> 
> Doing it in alphabetical order was fair and logical.
> 
> It is also the reason that we all now remember that Annapolis is the capital of Maryland, since we've seen that car a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> (Although I don't remember seeing Albany--do they go to their part of the country if possible?)




Albany is still sitting at the CAF factory, awaiting repairs/renovation.


----------



## Mystic River Dragon

Thanks, Mike.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail, do you happen to know how 69000 and the diners are coming along?


----------



## KnightRail

cpotisch said:


> Thirdrail, do you happen to know how 69000 and the diners are coming along?


Watch the just the facts thread. It has been kept up to date.


----------



## PVD

Thank you KR, I didn't notice the current edit on the original post, but "you made me look" Seems like we are in the home stretch.....


----------



## PRR 60

Several posts regarding the Bag Dorm cars have been moved to Part 3 of the continuing Viewliner saga.

Viewliner II - Part 3 - Bag Dorm Cars


----------



## cocojacoby

PVD said:


> Thank you KR, I didn't notice the current edit on the original post, but "you made me look" Seems like we are in the home stretch.....


Well there is that option . . .


----------



## cpotisch

So other than 69002, every V-II that has been delivered has entered service?


----------



## KnightRail

cpotisch said:


> So other than 69002, every V-II that has been delivered has entered service?


Yes.


----------



## cpotisch

So we’re still missing 68000 ‘Albany’, 68010 ‘Dover’, and 68011 ‘Frankfort’. It’s been more than three months since the last delivery. What is happening in Elmira???


----------



## RebelRider

cpotisch said:


> So we’re still missing 68000 ‘Albany’, 68010 ‘Dover’, and 68011 ‘Frankfort’. It’s been more than three months since the last delivery. What is happening in Elmira???


----------



## cpotisch

RebelRider said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we’re still missing 68000 ‘Albany’, 68010 ‘Dover’, and 68011 ‘Frankfort’. It’s been more than three months since the last delivery. What is happening in Elmira???
Click to expand...

Dying.


----------



## Palmetto

More like: being strangled to death.


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> So we’re still missing 68000 ‘Albany’, 68010 ‘Dover’, and 68011 ‘Frankfort’. It’s been more than three months since the last delivery. What is happening in Elmira???


Well, it was an extended Labor Day break. Now we are too close to Thanksgiving and then there is Christmas. So naturally nothing will happen until the next year :hi:


----------



## cpotisch

jis said:


> Well, it was an extended Labor Day break. Now we are too close to Thanksgiving and then there is Christmas. So naturally nothing will happen until the next year :hi:


Argh. hboy:


----------



## jis

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, I was just kidding. ^_^ and mostly trying out to see if "quote" worked.


----------



## KnightRail

Tomorrow﻿: Dover & Frankfort


----------



## AmtrakBlue

KnightRail said:


> Tomorrow﻿: Dover & Frankfort


You must have gotten my mental message.  I was wondering when Dover was coming down the NEC as I was heading home parallel to where I usually catch the new cars.  

I was also thinking, don't be sending them now - it's dark and cold now.


----------



## DSS&A

KnightRail said:


> Tomorrow﻿: Dover & Frankfort


Thank you for the delivery information!!


----------



## cpotisch

KnightRail said:


> Tomorrow﻿: Dover & Frankfort


Glad to hear that CAF apparently hasn't completely shut down...


----------



## stappend

Looks like Albany is the only one missing.  Good news, maybe the Star or Cardinal will get a Lounge.  Some of the early deliverers are probably ready for a long maintenance, so good thing there are spares.


----------



## cpotisch

stappend said:


> Looks like Albany is the only one missing.  Good news, maybe the Star or Cardinal will get a Lounge.  Some of the early deliverers are probably ready for a long maintenance, so good thing there are spares.


I don't think that this delivery means we're any closer to the Star or Cardinal getting a ViewDiner. They've had enough cars to outfit those trains for many months. IMO, available equipment really is not the issue here, it's management.


----------



## GBNorman

cpotisch said:


> I don't think that this delivery means we're any closer to the Star or Cardinal getting a ViewDiner. They've had enough cars to outfit those trains for many months. IMO, available equipment really is not the issue here, it's management.


During Penn Station repairs:

Cars available: 22

Assigned:

19-20 - 4

448-449 - 4

97-98 - 4

Protect:

BOS - 1

SSY - 1

CHI - 1

HIA - 1

NOL - 1

Total Assigned & Protect: 17

Unassigned: 5

Today (NYP repairs done)

Cars available: 24

Assigned (proposed):

19-20 - 4

48-49 - 3

50-51 - 2

91-92 - 4

97-98 - 4

Protect:

SSY - 1

CHI - 1

HIA - 1

NOL - 1

Total Assigned and Protect: 21

Unassigned: 3

While there were insufficient cars over the Summer, I think there would be now. The Unassigned (shops) will be augumented when 00 - Albany is delivered, and the decision to recall 8400 - Indianapolis from axle count service is  made.


----------



## Palmetto

I read on another forum that these cars are billed *to go to storage*.  Not surprised, if true.


----------



## Ryan

If it appeared on the internet, it must be true.


----------



## jis

Palmetto said:


> I read on another forum that these cars are billed *to go to storage*.  Not surprised, if true.


Won't be surprised if it is false either :giggle:


----------



## Maglev

Does anyone else think there might be use for diners on Northeast Regional trains?   They certainly have the greatest occupancy of any Amtrak routes, and plenty of people are on the trains for extended periods over meal times.


----------



## cpotisch

Maglev said:


> Does anyone else think there might be use for diners on Northeast Regional trains?   They certainly have the greatest occupancy of any Amtrak routes, and plenty of people are on the trains for extended periods over meal times.


I personally don't think so, since the Regionals don't have sleepers and even the longest ones take no more than about 12.5 hours end to end.


----------



## Palmetto

I don't think having a sleeping car in the consist is a prerequisite for having a dining car.  I rode the _Merchants Limited_ loads of times in the late 60's and very much enjoyed the dining service on it.  Parlor car was very good too.  But:  that was then, this is now.  Trouble is, Amtrak is probably unwilling to try and experiment with anything these days that would enhance the customer service.  Along with the airlines, it's a race to the bottom, it seems.


----------



## railbuck

More to the point, Amtrak is probably unwilling to try anything that might increase net foodservice costs, which operating a Viewdiner _as a dining car_ in NEC Regional service likely would.


----------



## MARC Rider

cpotisch said:


> I personally don't think so, since the Regionals don't have sleepers and even the longest ones take no more than about 12.5 hours end to end.


Back in the day, the Northeast trains did have full dining service.  In the summer of 1975 I was a regular passenger on the Bankers, WAS TO BOS.  I rode from PHL to NYP.  It had a diner, and I was able to get served a full dinner between Trenton and Newark.  I seem to remember they did a good business.  Streamlined service - choice of fish, chicken or steak, prixe-fix with 2 veg, salad and roll.  You filled out your order, all the waiter had to do was take your check, bring your food, and collect the money.  It should work even better today, what with preplated. meals, but I think the eating public today wants more menu choices, which complicates things.


----------



## MARC Rider

MARC Rider said:


> Back in the day, the Northeast trains did have full dining service.  In the summer of 1975 I was a regular passenger on the Bankers, WAS TO BOS.  I rode from PHL to NYP.  It had a diner, and I was able to get served a full dinner between Trenton and Newark.  I seem to remember they did a good business.  Streamlined service - choice of fish, chicken or steak, prixe-fix with 2 veg, salad and roll.  You filled out your order, all the waiter had to do was take your check, bring your food, and collect the money.  It should work even better today, what with preplated. meals, but I think the eating public today wants more menu choices, which complicates things.


Oh yeah, the train I  rode in the 70s was the Merchants Limited.


----------



## cpotisch

But remember that the (often vast) majority of diner "sales" on most routes come from sleeper passengers, which have meals included. So that would have to be different for a diner to work well without sleepers.


----------



## west point

What has not been explained by Amtrak is what amount of sleeper revenue is allocated to the F & B revenue.  Is it a fixed amount for each sleeper passenger, or is it a fixed amount from what each passenger eats,  or is it just the amount each sleeper passenger charges ?  Depending on how charged has big effects on F&B revenue and some effect on how much the sleeper revenue is  ?   Our congress critters need to know !


----------



## Palmetto

Ryan said:


> If it appeared on the internet, it must be true.


Works for Amtrak, apparently.  Said he:  "when we know [about delivery], you'll know..."


----------



## JRR

west point said:


> What has not been explained by Amtrak is what amount of sleeper revenue is allocated to the F & B revenue.  Is it a fixed amount for each sleeper passenger, or is it a fixed amount from what each passenger eats,  or is it just the amount each sleeper passenger charges ?  Depending on how charged has big effects on F&B revenue and some effect on how much the sleeper revenue is  ?   Our congress critters need to know !


This is a point I have made repeatedly regarding the revenue allocated for the sleeper meals. Take a roomette for example, whether one or two persons occupy the roomette, the roomette cost which includes meals is the same. Thus, it would seem logical to allocate revenue for meals for two people whether or not two people actually occupy the room. Accordingly, when one person is occupying the room a substantial “profit” should be realized.

To consider what the sleeper passenger actually eats as the measure for revenue makes no sense. The amount that a passenger eats actually determines the “cost” of the food consumed.

To account otherwise is nonsensical since if the sleeper passenger “pays” for the meals but does not eat anything, under the attributing revenue based upon what is eaten, there would be no revenue even though the meals were actually paid for. The failure to eat them, decreases the cost (no food eaten), and actually presents AMTRAK an opportunity to sell the same food twice by selling it to a coach passenger and increase revenue even more.

Until we know how revenue is allocated, however, we can’t make a determination whether the F&B operations make a profit or not.

Since I am just repeating myself ad nauseam, somebody figuratively, knock me up the side of my head if I do this again![emoji773]


----------



## west point

JRR -  -  Thanks seems we are on the same page.  To expand If 2 passengers are in a roomette then the same amount that is allocated for one passenger would seem to be in order.  @ people certainly increases the overall sleeper designated revenue. The same should apply as well for mote than 1 in a bedroom.  That does mean some reduction may be in order if a 2nd or more persons is a minor ?

But until we really know how Amtrak is doing this instead of what should be done is making these figures from Amtrak almost meaning less.


----------



## neroden

I'm going to repeat that half of the dining car customers on the LSL were from coach, before they started trashing dining service on the LSL PennCentral style.

If there was one competent person in management of Amtrak, they'd take advantage of this.


----------



## cpotisch

neroden said:


> I'm going to repeat that half of the dining car customers on the LSL were from coach, before they started trashing dining service on the LSL PennCentral style.
> 
> If there was one competent person in management of Amtrak, they'd take advantage of this.


That is one of the reasons why I thought the LSL was a bit of an odd choice for contemporary dining. They cut coach pax out of the dining experience when they account for 50% of diner customers, on a train which often runs with five or six coaches. Doesn't strike me as a particularly good choice.


----------



## KnightRail

Palmetto said:


> I read on another forum that these cars are billed *to go to storage*.  Not surprised, if true.


Don’t drink the trainDISorders kool-aid, it’s toxic.

Total fake news, as usual.


----------



## PRR 60

KnightRail said:


> Don’t drink the trainDISorders kool-aid, it’s toxic.
> 
> Total fake news, as usual.


While a lot of the things posted at Trainorders are accurate, there are a couple of posters there that have an agenda and don't always limit their assertions to the facts.


----------



## twropr

If my notes are correct, Providence 68020 is also still at CAF.

Andy


----------



## cpotisch

twropr said:


> If my notes are correct, Providence 68020 is also still at CAF.
> 
> Andy


Nope. That was delivered a while ago.


----------



## Palmetto

KnightRail said:


> Don’t drink the trainDISorders kool-aid, it’s toxic.
> 
> Total fake news, as usual.


Actually, it was railroad.net, but thanks anyway for the advice.  The trainorders poster took his cue from the railroad.net poster I think.


----------



## cocojacoby

Various Amtrak sources have told _Railway Age_ that the brand-new CAF USA-built Viewliner II dining cars are having their expensive cooking equipment removed and undergoing conversion into lounge cars.


----------



## tricia

That's so depressing.


----------



## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> Various Amtrak sources have told _Railway Age_ that the brand-new CAF USA-built Viewliner II dining cars are having their expensive cooking equipment removed and undergoing conversion into lounge cars.


What???    Could you post a link to that?


----------



## prech786

cpotisch said:


> What???    Could you post a link to that?


Make sure you read the "editor's notes" at the bottom. https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/amtrak-touts-performance-financial-records/


----------



## neroden

Brain damage at HQ.  FFS, grill some eggs.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

prech786 said:


> Make sure you read the "editor's notes" at the bottom. https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/amtrak-touts-performance-financial-records/


The link posted is to Trainorders.

The correct link is:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/amtrak-touts-performance-financial-records/

Also the whole part of converting the diners to lounge is listed as the writers interpretation.  Of course he states he has multiple Amtrak personal tell him this.

Not very reliable, no need to panic yet.


----------



## Steve4031

I read it and seems like they’re referring to the what was done on the lakeshore limited.


----------



## cpotisch

Steve4031 said:


> I read it and seems like they’re referring to the what was done on the lakeshore limited.


I hope, but "removing the expensive kitchen equipment" seems to be pretty explicit, and it's not in past tense either, so...


----------



## railiner

Removing the galley equipment seems like a bad choice to me...

Of course, what is done, can later be 'reversed', but at what cost?

They should just do what they are doing now, for now, and leave the equipment intact, just in case a future administration hopefully changes this direction, but they seem determined to "burn their bridges" behind them....


----------



## Ziv

How reliable is Railway Age and this particular author/editor?

Because " Various Amtrak sources have told _Railway Age_ that the brand-new CAF USA-built Viewliner II dining cars—part of a multi-million-dollar-order for baggage cars, sleepers and diners—are having their expensive cooking equipment removed and undergoing conversion into lounge cars. " isn't the same thing as Amtrak stating that they removed the cooking equipment. You can find a source that will say just about anything, and may say it to further their own interests even if they know it to be false.

On edit: Did I miss the direct statement by an Amtrak employee?


----------



## jis

cpotisch said:


> I hope, but "removing the expensive kitchen equipment" seems to be pretty explicit, and it's not in past tense either, so...


But it still is completely unverified hearsay with no specific source disclosed as far as I can tell.


----------



## Steve4031

Is my understanding correct that in their current configuration these cars could not function like the dinette cars on the cardinal and silver star?  If they could these cars would be an improvement over the amfleet cars.


----------



## cpotisch

Steve4031 said:


> Is my understanding correct that in their current configuration these cars could not function like the dinette cars on the cardinal and silver star?  If they could these cars would be an improvement over the amfleet cars.


This has actually been discussed a few times on AU, and what seems to have generally been concluded is that the ViewDiners' lack of a counter is the only real issue with using one as a lounge. And I don't think it would be difficult at all for them to just remove the kitchen wall and turn it into a snack counter, so I would agree that ViewDiners are a pretty good candidate to replace the AmCan lounges. Of course, I would also much prefer them to be used as actual dining cars...


----------



## Steve4031

It’s better they are used as diners. But they would a huge improvement over the amfleet lounges.


----------



## railiner

Steve4031 said:


> It’s better they are used as diners. But they would a huge improvement over the amfleet lounges.


Agree that it would be better to use them as real diner's like they were designed for.   If a section of the galley wall was modified to use as a counter, it could be used as a cafe lounge, I suppose, but...it would have fewer table space than the Amfleet lounges, and the passageway between the counter and the wall would be kind of narrow as compared to the Amfleet setup, making for congestion...


----------



## IndyLions

On the LSL, is there a dedicated attendant for the First Class Lounge / V2 Diner? If so, why wouldn’t they treat it like a real lounge dedicated to sleeper passengers & BC? Seems like a chance to add revenue and a little bit more utility for the car. Sell some slightly upscale items (fruit & cheese plate, nice desserts) along with booze and soft drinks. The free (fresh & contemporary) stuff would still be handed out there as well. Seems too logical to me. Wouldn’t take much more than a counter and a refrigerator.


----------



## cpotisch

IndyLions said:


> On the LSL, is there a dedicated attendant for the First Class Lounge / V2 Diner? If so, why wouldn’t they treat it like a real lounge dedicated to sleeper passengers & BC? Seems like a chance to add revenue and a little bit more utility for the car. Sell some slightly upscale items (fruit & cheese plate, nice desserts) along with booze and soft drinks. The free (fresh & contemporary) stuff would still be handed out there as well. Seems too logical to me. Wouldn’t take much more than a counter and a refrigerator.


A few things:


There is a dedicated LSA in the new Sleeper Lounge.

BC passengers don't have access to the lounge.

Soft drinks and your first hard drink are all complimentary, so they don't need to sell the former, and they already sell the latter.


----------



## IndyLions

cpotisch said:


> A few things:
> 
> There is a dedicated LSA in the new Sleeper Lounge.
> BC passengers don't have access to the lounge.
> Soft drinks and your first hard drink are all complimentary, so they don't need to sell the former, and they already sell the latter.


1. Thought so - thanks

2. Knew that - but it’s dumb - access to that car would sell more BC seats. Also - if you sell booze in there it increases your audience that buys drinks and tips.

3. I’m proposing a NICER place to buy drinks and NICER snacks. Believe it or not, most towns have more than one bar. Give the car a little more ambience and BC/Sleeper passengers might spend more.

Also - what in the blue blazes is that V2 attendant doing all day long anyway? How long does it take to hand out 2 boxed meals per sleeper passenger anyway? The folks running the regular lounge run their tail off (but probably do decent on the tips at least).


----------



## Palmetto

Most towns have more than one bar?  Have you traveled out West in the wide open spaces? :huh:


----------



## GBNorman

It would appear that Indy is suggesting that the V-II Diner be open to all as the one Food Svc car.  They likely will have to start modifying the cars to have a counter; just maybe that is what is being evaluated with 00-"Albany".  I would think they could "have tryouts" with 91-92, Star.  Could everyone be handled with one Attendant? Should or shouldn't go "Fresh and Contemporary" for the Sleepers (raise the room rates) or would they have to assign two Attendants and obviate the savings?

Time to give the Phalanx  at 1 Mass something to do other than simply guarding the fort.


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> just maybe that is what is being evaluated with 00-"Albany".


Nope. We've been through this - Albany is a prototype car which has to be brought up to the current ViewDiner design and spec, and which we've known all along will be delivered last (of the diners). It would make absolutely zero sense to deliver 24 of the 25 diners in normal spec and then somehow have the last be in some different layout for use as a special all-in-one food service car on what would have to be a single consist. No sense whatsoever.  :help:


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> Nope. We've been through this - Albany is a prototype car which has to be brought up to the current ViewDiner design and spec, and which we've known all along will be delivered last (of the diners). It would make absolutely zero sense to deliver 24 of the 25 diners in normal spec and then somehow have the last be in some different layout for use as a special all-in-one food service car on what would have to be a single consist. No sense whatsoever.  :help:


So, you're saying Amtrak will do it? :giggle:


----------



## chrsjrcj

Jackson is on 92 today (assumingly) deadheading.


----------



## pennyk

Tallahassee deadheading on today's 98.


----------



## cpotisch

pennyk said:


> Tallahassee deadheading on today's 98.
> 
> View attachment 11209
> 
> 
> View attachment 11210


Any idea where it’s going? They’ve all already entered service, right?


----------



## Acela150

cpotisch said:


> Any idea where it’s going? They’ve all already entered service, right?


Well since it's on 98, NYC.


----------



## cpotisch

Acela150 said:


> cpotisch said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea where it’s going? They’ve all already entered service, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Well since it's on 98, NYC﻿﻿﻿﻿.  ﻿
Click to expand...

I more meant it in the “What is it heading to NYC for?” kind of sense...


----------



## me_little_me

Will probably be converted into a bus for the Southwest Chief. :giggle:


----------



## Amtrakfflyer

Crickets...

When do we assume the rest of the orders been cancelled? As a public company we all pay for,  it’s time for management to come clean and give some updates.

How many of the diners are actually stored?


----------



## neroden

Given the amount of money Amtrak is leaving on the table by not having enough Eastern sleepers in the summer, it is blatant mismanagement to not get them.


----------



## cpotisch

Amtrakfflyer said:


> How﻿ ﻿many of the diners are actually stored?﻿﻿﻿


11 Viewliner Diners are in service at any given time, on the LSL, Silver Meteor, and Crescent. Excluding 8400, Amtrak currently has a total of 24 ViewDiners (25 once 68000 _Albany_ is delivered), so even with protects in Chicago, Hialeah, Sunnyside, and New Orleans, they still have 9 or so pretty much doing nothing. Not a great use of some brand new and pretty state of the art $3M dining cars. SMH.


----------



## Ryan

It’s like there is an echo in here. 

The numbers don’t mean that the other diners are stored doing nothing. 

SMH, indeed.


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> It’s like there is an echo in here.
> 
> The numbers don’t mean that the other diners are stored doing nothing.
> 
> SMH, indeed.


Let me put it this way: do you agree that there are physically enough diners to be put on more routes (for example the mere two-consist Cardinal)? They could keep serving the same food, and they wouldn’t need to add staff (I will concede that you can’t use a Viewliner Diner as a Cafe car like the current diner-lite on the Card, but they could just move snack service to the split Business/Cafe car). The Cardinal has phenomenal scenery, and currently, no real facilities to enjoy it from.

It just seems to me like poor use of a bunch of brand new cars.


----------



## Ryan

cpotisch said:


> do you agree agree that there are physically enough diners to be put on more routes


Not if those diners are somehow tied up doing something that would make them unusable for daily service.  Something like this, perhaps?



Anderson said:


> This is, tentatively, correct per my understanding.  A whole lot of (understandable) FUD got going around, but basically right now the convection ovens used for the (one) hot entree can only do one item at a time.  This causes things to get backed up.  The new equipment (which triggered the "gutting" rumors) is supposed to be able to handle heating 24 items at a go (!), which will give them a lot more flexibility...but the yards can only do so much updating at a time (between their own capacity and the need for equipment to be in use) so it's gonna be _slow_...


----------



## cpotisch

Ryan said:


> Not﻿ if those diners are somehow tied up doing something that would make them unusable for daily service.  Something like this, perhaps?
> 
> 
> 
> Anderson said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is, tentatively, correct per my understanding.  A whole lot of (understandable) FUD got going around, but basically right now the convection ovens used for the (one) hot entree can only do one item at a time.  This causes things to get backed up.  The new equipment (which triggered the "gutting" rumors) is supposed to be able to handle heating 24 items at a go (!), which will give them a lot more flexibility...but the yards can only do so much updating at a time (between their own capacity and the need for equipment to be in u﻿se) so it's gonna be _slow_...
Click to expand...

Interesting, didn’t see that. Thank you!


----------



## Anderson

Presuming that all 25 diners are "in hand", there are enough to cover the LSL, Meteor, and Crescent under the current circumstances (that's 11) if a bunch are being overhauled.  As far as longer-term plans go (and there are plenty of rumors on this front), some of that depends on what they plan to do with the Viewliner IIs.  If the plan is to plop them on a route that's presently a Superliner route, that complicates the longer-term picture, now, doesn't it?


----------



## Pipp

I'm sorry If this been answered, But why are these painted in Phase 3 Scheme?  It doesn't make sense.


----------



## cpotisch

Pipp said:


> I'm sorry If this been answered, But why are these painted in Phase 3 Scheme?  It doesn't make sense.


The plan under Boardman was to have a separate “Amtrak America” brand for long distance services, and as such, they wanted to distinguish long distance equipment with their own special color scheme. I guess they concluded that since Phase III was particularly attractive and was very distinctive as a classic Amtrak color scheme, that it was the best candidate for the job.


----------



## VT Hokie

As I predicted, the Phase III, in addition to making the consists look worse, also shows dirt and grime more.  Hopefully at some point Amtrak will go back to a standardized Phase IV.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqLJxTVB4tb/

The two English ladies seated on the right were tourists who had arrived on the QM2, and were obviously accustomed to proper first class service.  They were so unsatisfied with the boxed meals that they asked if they could order another item instead, told sorry only one item per sleeper passenger, and then given a phone # to call and complain.  I explained to them the unfortunate and controversial cost cutting downgrades, and assured them that the meal service on their next leg aboard the California Zephyr would be better.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BqLPEGJh_lb/


----------



## cpotisch

VT Hokie said:


> As I predicted, the Phase III, in addition to making the consists look worse, also shows dirt and grime more.  Hopefully at some point Amtrak will go back to a standardized Phase IV.


I have to disagree about Phase III looking worse. I personally love the large red-white-and-blue stripe and the pointless arrow, and I'm pretty sick of virtually every peace of equipment in the Amtrak fleet having nothing but the drab, dark blue stripe that is Phase IV. In my book, any variation would be welcomed, and I think that if we ever get uniform Phase III consists (in which the Amfleets and maybe even the locos would also have that paint), it would look even better.


----------



## Ryan

Amen!


----------



## jis

Agree with cpotisch on that.


----------



## cocojacoby

I also agree that Phase III is fine but even better if everything matched.  The new engines look rather boring next to a Phase III heritage unit.


----------



## me_little_me

I could care less about the colors. I just want diners to be diners, not cold-food-carrying storage cars.


----------



## west point

Yes let us worry more about getting more equipment not spending money on paint jobs !


----------



## PVD

I took 2 trains last week. One had 700 and one had 715 old paint/new paint, amfleet 1 cars that look tired. Saw them for 2 minutes or so. But I spent 5 1/2 hours inside in each direction, and the refreshed interiors with seats that actually had padding, clean carpets and bathrooms are sure to attract more repeat customers than if the paint jobs matched. I overheard passengers commenting on the cars being nice, that is a good thing, for sure.


----------



## cocojacoby

west point said:


> Yes let us worry more about getting more equipment not spending money on paint jobs !


I'm sure they are just easy-to-apply and easy-to-remove wraps right?


----------



## PVD

actually, generally not


----------



## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> west point said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes let us worry more about getting more equipment not spending money on paint jobs !
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure they are just easy-to-apply and easy-to-remove wraps right?
Click to expand...

Nope. It's a full and thorough paint job.


----------



## PVD

The locomotives are a big job, the amfleets probably not so much.


----------



## cpotisch

PVD said:


> The locomotives are a big job, the amfleets probably not so much.


Indeed.

#nothingbutaboringbluestripe


----------



## Thirdrail7

h34r:


----------



## frequentflyer

west point said:


> Yes let us worry more about getting more equipment not spending money on paint jobs !


It's called branding. Amtrak had the rainbow era (cars with liveries from different railroads) back in the early 70s yet saw the importance of their own brand, the start of the pointless arrow. Whether its Phase Iv or III, pick a livery and stick with it.


----------



## GBNorman

Is Third Rail signaling another "drop"?

Just 00-Albany? perhaps SLEEPERS?????


----------



## Thirdrail7

GBNorman said:


> Is Third Rail signaling another "drop"?
> 
> Just 00-Albany? perhaps SLEEPERS?????


I'm pretty sure a cursory glance of this board will answer the question. (scroll down a few posts)


----------



## StanJazz

Since the radar screen showed up in the dining car thread _And_ the sleeping car thread maybe the last dining car and the first sleeping car are going to be released.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Seeing is believing!

Let's hope that the Powers that be @ Amtrak don't park them in a yard in Florida like the Diners after testing and acceptance!!


----------



## west point

Bob Dylan said:


> Seeing is believing!
> 
> Let's hope that the Powers that be @ Amtrak don't park them in a yard in Florida like the Diners after testing and acceptance!!


Just pointed out diners tested and accepted.  Does that make them entered into the LD depreciation schedule?  That would make LD trains loose even more?


----------



## Ryan

Bob Dylan said:


> Let's hope that the Powers that be @ Amtrak don't park them in a yard in Florida like the Diners after testing and acceptance!!


Every time this rumor comes up I ask which diners have been supposedly sidelined, and have yet to receive an answer.


----------



## Bob Dylan

Ryan said:


> Every time this rumor comes up I ask which diners have been supposedly sidelined, and have yet to receive an answer.


Fair enough Ryan, I have no hard data,just know what I've read on-line and heard from rail fans.

Also,Why don't the Star(vation) and the Card have Diners to replace the Less-than-Beloved Diner-Lites and Cafe Car now that the order is mostly complete?

The apparent conversion of the New Diners to Sleeper Lounges such as on the Lake Shore makes me wonder if this will become SOP for ALL LD Viewliner Trains?

I also have a question about the vanishing Baggage Cars, such as on the Texas Eagle and other LD Trains. Where are these Cars being utilized or stored and Why is this happening?


----------



## jis

Reduction of labor cost (or not increasing them) will explain everything that you ask about above. Why is that so difficult to understand. 

I am not saying that is the best choice, but the answer to all the “why”s that you ask lies there.


----------



## west point

jis said:


> Reduction of labor cost (or not increasing them) will explain everything that you ask about above. Why is that so difficult to understand.
> 
> I am not saying that is the best choice, but the answer to all the “why”s that you ask lies there.


`More revenue than increased costs does not compute according to Amtrak ?


----------



## jis

There is strong evidence from their action that it does not. 

Again I am not saying that is right. I am just presenting facts as observed in their behavior.


----------



## nti1094

A conductor on Wednesday’s Sunset Limited complained about the baggage cars being removed from some trains. I pointed out that I noticed that they were very lightly used and he said that people are checking less bags than before, but are starting to bring more and more unboxed bikes on the train to hand up to the conductor in the baggage car. He also complained that the extra distance away from the loco made for a quieter and more pleasant ride with less diesel fumes. I personally have not had a problem with the fumes but I can say that a recent trip down on the CONO in the dorm car was very noisy, and I usually barely notice the horn. 

He was under the impression that it was a seasonal change and that they would be back, or at least he was told they would. But he also said that it would not matter if that was the case or not, they always say that and rarely restore cuts or keep them in the loop. 

I had forgotten about the bike access changes made recently, but when I think about it I recall seeing many bikes being passed up to baggage cars in Chicago. Nothing like the numbers in California, but a lot more than I expected. That is a good reason to keep the cars on all long distance trains I feel.


----------



## IndyLions

As a bike rider & train lover nearing retirement, it would be very disappointing if the baggage cars get pulled just as I’m getting ready to take the train to kick off bike tours on a somewhat regular basis.


----------



## TiBike

I agree completely -- I'm planning more bike/train trips too, and it would be very disappointing. But the real problem isn't the baggage cars, it's Amtrak's bureaucratic attitude towards bikes corporately, and lack of motivation and mental flexibility on board the trains. You don't need a whole baggage car to handle six bikes per train (Amtrak's current limit). There's plenty of room on single level trains and all the room in the world on bi-levels, even without putting in bike racks or making other modifications, as they do on corridor trains when states force them to do so.



IndyLions said:


> As a bike rider & train lover nearing retirement, it would be very disappointing if the baggage cars get pulled just as I’m getting ready to take the train to kick off bike tours on a somewhat regular basis.


----------



## neroden

Thirdrail7 said:


> h34r:


I really hope this image doesn't mean

"There is nothing on the radar"

:help:

Ah, I see, there's one dot.... so good news?


----------



## Thirdrail7

Bob Dylan said:


> I also have a question about the vanishing Baggage Cars, such as on the Texas Eagle and other LD Trains. Where are these Cars being utilized or stored and Why is this happening?


Who said they are being stored?  More importantly, with the winter consist plan in effect, do you really need a separate baggage car for two coaches and a sleeper when a bag coach will do? Why not get caught up on PM work and overhauls? Why not divert some of the cars to axle count (which is paid for by the state) and free up needed coaches? The extra bag on the LSL was a classic example of wasted resources.



jis said:


> Reduction of labor cost (or not increasing them) will explain everything that you ask about above. Why is that so difficult to understand.
> 
> I am not saying that is the best choice, but the answer to all the “why”s that you ask lies there.






west point said:


> `More revenue than increased costs does not compute according to Amtrak ?


Not only labor, but wear and tear and fuel must be considered. Additionally, it is REALLY easy to track what goes into the baggage cars at stations these days. It is easier to see what trains are lightly used, how many bikes are checked, what express  and.or mail is loaded and removed. The walk up, baggage lite program may not be as easy to track but they probably deduced that a full bag on all trains may not be necessary.


----------



## Ryan

Bob Dylan said:


> Let's hope that the Powers that be @ Amtrak don't park them in a yard in Florida like the Diners after testing and acceptance!!


From the "Just the Facts" thread:



KnightRail said:


> 09FEB2019 Scorecard:
> 
> 68000 Albany: CAF
> 
> 68001 Annapolis: Hialeah(shopped)
> 
> 68002 Atlanta: Chicago(protect)
> 
> 68003 Augusta: 19(08FEB)
> 
> 68004 Baton Rouge: 98(08FEB)
> 
> 68005 Boston: Sunnyside(shopped)
> 
> 68006 Charleston: 48(09FEB)
> 
> 68007 Columbia: Hialeah(scheduled)
> 
> 68008 Columbus: 48(08FEB)
> 
> 68009 Concord: 19(09FEB)
> 
> 68010 Dover: 48(08FEB) deadhead
> 
> 68011 Frankfort: Hialeah(protect)
> 
> 68012 Harrisburg: 97(08FEB)
> 
> 68013 Hartford: New Orleans(protect)
> 
> 68014 Jackson: Washington
> 
> 68015 Lansing: Hialeah(protect)
> 
> 68016 Madison: 97(09FEB)
> 
> 68017 Montgomery: 49(09FEB)
> 
> 68018 Montpelier: 20(09FEB)
> 
> 68019 Nashville: Hialeah(shopped)
> 
> 68020 Providence: 20(08FEB)
> 
> 68021 Raleigh: 98(09FEB)
> 
> 68022 Richmond: Hialeah(scheduled)
> 
> 68023 Springfield: Hialeah(scheduled)
> 
> 68024 Tallahassee: Hialeah(shopped)




Sounds like the "accepted and stored" is a pile of foamer poo.


----------



## Amtrak706

That’s quite a lot of shopped cars though. And what does “scheduled” mean in this context? Plus, why does Hialeah need two protect cars?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Amtrak706 said:


> That’s quite a lot of shopped cars though. And what does “scheduled” mean in this context? *Plus, why does Hialeah need two protect cars?*


92 and 98??


----------



## Amtrak706

AmtrakBlue said:


> 92 and 98??


91/92 doesn’t have a diner...


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Amtrak706 said:


> 91/92 doesn’t have a diner...


Oops, didn't pay full attention to the title of this thread - was thinking about the sleepers - which, of course, have not been delivered.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Too high of a shop count, too many in protect status.  Even if you accepted Amtrak 80% Fleet availability you would have 20 in service at any given time. The list from KnightRail show only 11 in service, add one with the business fleet so 12 in service out of the twenty that should be.


----------



## cpotisch

Amtrak706 said:


> That’s quite a lot of shopped cars though. And what does “scheduled” mean in this context?


I’m pretty sure it means that they’re scheduled to enter service for the first time on some particular date.


----------



## cpotisch

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Too high of a shop count, too many in protect status.  Even if you accepted Amtrak 80% Fleet availability you would have 20 in service at any given time. The list from KnightRail show only 11 in service, add one with the business fleet so 12 in service out of the twenty that should be.


What “business fleet”?


----------



## Amtrak706

cpotisch said:


> I’m pretty sure it means that they’re scheduled to enter service for the first time on some particular date.


Pretty sure 68007 Columbia has been in service for a while already...

And the “business fleet” is the office cars, like American View or Beech Grove that are for non-revenue corporate use. I don’t see anything on that fleet allocation that looks like any car is running with the business fleet though.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Amtrak706 said:


> And the “business fleet” is the office cars, like American View or Beech Grove that are for non-revenue corporate use. I don’t see anything on that fleet allocation that looks like any car is running with the business fleet though.


“68014 Jackson: Washington”

Unless Washington has a protect car than 68014 is doing the business fleet thing.


----------



## Amtrak706

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> “68014 Jackson: Washington”
> 
> Unless Washington has a protect car than 68014 is doing the business fleet thing.


I read that as being a protect car but you’re right, that probably isn’t a sensible spot for one.


----------



## cpotisch

Amtrak706 said:


> Pretty sure 68007 Columbia has been in service for a while already...


Hmmm. Didn't notice that one. :wacko:


----------



## Thirdrail7

Amtrak706 said:


> That’s quite a lot of shopped cars though.


Think of it this way.  From endpoint to endpoint, It is roughly 1500 miles on the average on  the  Silver route, 1400 miles on the Crescent route and 950 miles on the Lake Shore Route. That is a lot of time for things to go wrong or need tuning.

Be grateful they now have enough equipment to fix the small things before they become big problems.



Amtrak706 said:


> And what does “scheduled” mean in this context?


It means there is a scheduled confinement of the car to a maintenance facility . It could be for an overhaul, a warranty inspection, periodic maintenance, etc. as opposed to shopped for defects.



Amtrak706 said:


> Plus, why does Hialeah need two protect cars?


Hia is their home base. They already have protects in other locations.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Last but certainly not least:












  

Fleets one, two and three. Wednesday is your day. Fleet four follows on Thursday. We look forward to your pictures and or/video.


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> Last but certainly not least:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fleets one, two and three. Wednesday is your day. Fleet four follows on Thursday. We look forward to your pictures and or/video.


Do you have any guess as to what routes are likely to get the bag-dorms and new sleepers first?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Thirdrail7 said:


> Last but certainly not least:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fleets one, two and three. Wednesday is your day. Fleet four follows on Thursday. We look forward to your pictures and or/video.


Depends on the weather.


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> Depends on the weather.


Railroad runs in all types of weather.   Or least it used to.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Acela150 said:


> Railroad runs in all types of weather. [emoji6] Or least it used to. [emoji33]


George P and Rob S might be willing to stand out in the bad weather to get pics of trains, but I’m not that crazy. [emoji14]


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> George P and Rob S might be willing to stand out in the bad weather to get pics of trains, but I’m not that crazy.


My work schedule is a hot mess this week.. I would willingly wait trackside Wednesday for some photos. But that's not happening cause of a wild work week.


----------



## Ryan

I'll wave out the window as I (hopefully) fly to Syracuse for work.


----------



## AmtrakBlue

Sounds like Amtrak needs to reschedule. [emoji3]


----------



## me_little_me

The new cars are going into protect status in San Diego. It's not that they're needed there but Amtrak wants to show they are being used. :giggle:


----------



## jis

Scheduled probably means scheduled work like FRA mandated inspections etc.


----------



## Thirdrail7

cpotisch said:


> Do you have any guess as to what routes are likely to get the bag-dorms and new sleepers first?


I can't even imagine what will happen but you asked for  a guess.

Once they received a few bag dorms I would have bet the Late For Sure  and Pigeon would be the ultimate recipients. . However, a sleeper has emerged and they weren't supposed to come until the end of the year. They may have pushed for the sleepers to come next.  I know VA indicated they are interested in a sleeping car returning to 67/66 (and they would likely pick up part of the costs) , but I would assume the new sleepers would stay close to their base.

Therefore, I would say new sleepers would go into the Meteor's rotation first. The bag dorms would go into the Star's rotation first.  That is my guess.


----------



## StriderGDM

Every once in awhile I've found 66/67 tempting, even just from WAS to NYP, so a sleeper would make it even more tempting.

(oh here's a far-fetched idea for 20 years in the future. A set-out sleeper in each direction at NYP picked up by an early morning departure to Albany!


----------



## cpotisch

Thirdrail7 said:


> Therefore﻿, I would say new sleepers would go into the Meteor's rotation first﻿


Thanks so much for answering, but...argh. The Meteor is my home train and I really don’t want to lose my Roomette en suite that soon.


----------



## GBNorman

In order to have HIA home base for  V-II Bag-Dorms, they will need be assigned to one Silver train or the other. Assigning them to both Silver trains would be "getting thin" for protects. One Silver and the tri-weekly Cardinal is probably the "bureaucratic play it safe" route.

50-51 Cardinal - Two cars

91-92 Star - Four cars

CHI Protect - One car

SSY Protect - One car

HIA Shop-Protect - Two cars


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> In order to have HIA home base for  V-II Bag-Dorms, they will need be assigned to one Silver train or the other. Assigning them to both Silver trains would be "getting thin" for protects. One Silver and the tri-weekly Cardinal is probably the "bureaucratic play it safe" route.
> 
> 50-51 Cardinal - Two cars
> 
> 91-92 Star - Four cars
> 
> CHI Protect - One car
> 
> SSY Protect - One car
> 
> HIA Shop-Protect - Two cars


I really think the Cardinal is the best candidate for the first bag-dorms. A train with 3 1/2 revenue passenger cars really does not need a full 85' baggage car, and definitely _could_ use eight more Roomettes. And it would only take four cars to put one on both consists and have a protect at each terminus.


----------



## GBNorman

There are photos posted "elsewhere" showing 62502 - Rapidan River and 68000 Albany, enroute from CAF to Albany.

No Bag-Dorm


----------



## AmtrakBlue

GBNorman said:


> There are photos posted "elsewhere" showing 62502 - Rapidan River and 68000 Albany, enroute from CAF to Albany.
> No Bag-Dorm


Just as TR7 indicated.


----------



## Acela150

AmtrakBlue said:


> Just as TR7 indicated.


Who woulda thunk it?  :blink:


----------



## cpotisch

GBNorman said:


> There are photos posted "elsewhere" showing 62502 - Rapidan River and 68000 Albany, enroute from CAF to Albany.
> 
> No Bag-Dorm


Maybe I’ll see them (I’m currently on #49, nearing Poughkeepsie).


----------



## mgl1978

Albany headed south at ALX tonight.


----------



## Thirdrail7

mgl1978 said:


> Albany headed south at ALX tonight.


Well done, Fleet Three!!! Thank you!


----------



## AmtrakBlue

It took me too long to clear off my car and the dang 97 was running on time for a change. I got to my spot and checked the status to see that it had already passed and was at WIL.





I tried.


----------



## Agent

Here's a video from yesterday by 95 TRAINSPOTTER of the _Silver Meteor_ with the _Albany_ as the second-to-last car.


----------



## cpotisch

> 2 minutes ago, Agent said:
> 
> Here's a video from yesterday by 95 TRAINSPOTTER of the _Silver Meteor_ with the _Albany_ as the second-to-last car.



Wow, even with three coaches instead of the normal five, that is one long train. 

It is also a bit weird seeing a Viewliner Sleeper with only six Roomettes on one side. We really are approaching the end of Roomette en suites.


----------



## StriderGDM

Yeah, I have mixed feelings about the lack of the en suites. I support it from a cost/maintenance POV, but as a solo traveler often, they are definitely useful and nice.


----------



## randomguy65

cpotisch said:


> Wow, even with three coaches instead of the normal five, that is one long train.
> 
> It is also a bit weird seeing a Viewliner Sleeper with only six Roomettes on one side. We really are approaching the end of Roomette en suites.


I'm confused. Don't all Viewliners (I & II) have 6 Rommettes per side, with both sides adding to 12 Rommettes total?


----------



## PVD

In the VL2, one roomette becomes 2 toilet modules resulting in one less revenue roomette, so one side will have 5 rev roomettes rather than 6. There are 14 spaces, so subtract 1 attendant, one shower, and the roomette that is now the toilet, for 11 rev, 6 on one side five on the other.


----------



## cpotisch

Viewliner Is have seven Roomettes on that side, because the SCA has his own room (making 13 total) On the Viewliner IIs, the SCA’s room is where (revenue) room 12 was, and the two shared toilets are where the SCA was. Therefore there are now 6 Roomettes on that side. On the other side of the car, there is now only one fewer window, because they have replaced the pair of blacked out windows next to the shower with just one upper window (which I guess isn’t blacked out?).


----------



## randomguy65

Oh ok, I think I get it now. Heres a diagram.


----------



## cpotisch

randomguy65 said:


> Oh ok, I think I get it now. Heres a diagram.
> 
> View attachment 12905
> 
> 
> View attachment 12906


Yep. Dead on.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Do they really fit two toilets in the space of one roomette?  Doubt they would be handicapped accessible.  It is almost worth walking to the nearest coach to use the large toilet...


----------



## cpotisch

Brian Battuello said:


> Do they really fit two toilets in the space of one roomette?  Doubt they would be handicapped accessible.  It is almost worth walking to the nearest coach to use the large toilet...


If they were able to fit a toilet, sink, and two seats that fold into a bed, into every Roomette, I don’t see how it’s difficult at all to fit just two toilet modules in place of one Roomette. And every sleeper still has one Accessible Bedroom with a bathroom in it anyway, so I don’t see much issue with these shared restrooms for Roomette passengers being somewhat small. I mean, anyone who was physically capable of using the in-Roomette toilets before, will be able to use these, and anyone who needed the Accessible Bedroom instead will still have that option.


----------



## PVD

Regarding Viewliner 2, the toilets are not (nor are they required to be) handicapped accessible. Only the H room, purpose built as such, needs to be.


----------



## randomguy65

Brian Battuello said:


> Do they really fit two toilets in the space of one roomette?  Doubt they would be handicapped accessible.  It is almost worth walking to the nearest coach to use the large toilet...


If you've ever ridden in a Superliner Sleeper and have used the upstairs bathroom, it's roughly half the size of a Rommette. I imagine Amtrak could fit two small but comfortable bathrooms in the space of a Viewliner Roomette.


----------



## PVD

That is pretty much what it is......


----------



## Dakota 400

randomguy65 said:


> If you've ever ridden in a Superliner Sleeper and have used the upstairs bathroom, it's roughly half the size of a Rommette. I imagine Amtrak could fit two small but comfortable bathrooms in the space of a Viewliner Roomette.




I have used such a facility and found it quite acceptable.  However, given the recent posting of a Viewliner II diagram on AU showing the two restrooms at the end of the car across from the shower room makes me also wonder about its size.  Looks about the size of those restrooms, if that, on even the newest aircraft, which in my opinion, are smaller than those on older aircraft.


----------



## cpotisch

Dakota 400 said:


> I have used such a facility and found it quite acceptable.  However, given the recent posting of a Viewliner II diagram on AU showing the two restrooms at the end of the car across from the shower room makes me also wonder about its size.  Looks about the size of those restrooms, if that, on even the newest aircraft, which in my opinion, are smaller than those on older aircraft.


It’s hard to gauge the actual size of something from a diagram like that. Each of those bathrooms are objectively half the size of one Roomette, equating to 3’6” by about 3’4”. Seems large enough.


----------



## me_little_me

cpotisch said:


> I’m pretty sure it means that they’re scheduled to enter service for the first time on some particular date.



Will that be before or after the LD trains are gone?


----------



## PVD

The thought that certain aircraft bathrooms are now smaller is not opinion, it is fact. It varies by airline, and may appear on an older aircraft also, if the airline redoes the interior. 7 extra inches lets me have 2 more rows of "extra legroom seating" or if I want, a few less premium rows, but another full row.


----------



## DCAKen

PVD said:


> The thought that certain aircraft bathrooms are now smaller is not opinion, it is fact. It varies by airline, and may appear on an older aircraft also, if the airline redoes the interior. 7 extra inches lets me have 2 more rows of "extra legroom seating" or if I want, a few less premium rows, but another full row.



Although you can't fly in one now, the 737 MAX's bathrooms have been getting particularly bad reviews: https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-737-max-lavatories/


----------



## cocojacoby

[/QUOTE] I do feel that the Viewliner is a good looking car and it does look good in Phase III.


----------



## cpotisch

cocojacoby said:


> [ Not used to this new setup yet. Don't see how to delete.



Click edit, then "More Options", and then just hit the delete button to the right of the image.


----------



## KnightRail

Madison & Richmond are up to some shenanigans in Chicago. Pacific Bend is headed that way too.


----------



## me_little_me

KnightRail said:


> Madison & Richmond are up to some shenanigans in Chicago. Pacific Bend is headed that way too.


Probably to modify them into Sleeper-Lounges which will eliminate the beds and bathrooms to "make them more contemporary" by adding cots and porta-potties.


----------



## PerRock

Looking 3 tracks over from my Wolverine I can see that #68001 is deadheading on the Cardinal tonight. 

Peter


----------



## me_little_me

KnightRail said:


> 14JUN2019
> Diners in consists:
> 
> Crescent:
> 19(13) 68018
> 19(14) 68019
> 
> 20(13) 68020
> 20(14) 68024
> 
> 
> Silver Meteor:
> 97(13) 68013
> 97(14) 68012
> 
> 98(13) 68007
> 98(14) 68017
> 
> Lake Shore Limited:
> 
> 48(13) 68015
> 48(14) 68003
> 
> 49(14) 68001


Can you clarify that? Of 25 sleepers, only 11 in active use?


----------



## AmtrakBlue

me_little_me said:


> Can you clarify that? Of 25 sleepers, only 11 in active use?



Those are diners, not sleepers. 

12 in use
6 as B/O (bad ordered)
2 went to Chicago (perhaps for training the Cardinal crew??)
1 is scheduled
1 is protect
3 are Warranty (whatever that means)


----------



## bretton88

AmtrakBlue said:


> Those are diners, not sleepers.
> 
> 12 in use
> 6 as B/O (bad ordered)
> 2 went to Chicago (perhaps for training the Cardinal crew??)
> 1 is scheduled
> 1 is protect
> 3 are Warranty (whatever that means)


Warranty usually means manufacturer is on the hook for repair. So Amtrak must have found a defect pretty quick in those units.


----------



## JustOnce

AmtrakBlue said:


> Those are diners, not sleepers.
> 
> 12 in use
> * 6 as B/O (bad ordered)*
> 2 went to Chicago (perhaps for training the Cardinal crew??)
> 1 is scheduled
> 1 is protect
> 3 are Warranty (whatever that means)


Is that a normal bad order rate? To my layman's eyes that appears high, but I realize that these thing see many more miles than a automobile does. I imagine certain things are considered wear items, just as on my Ford, I have a bumper to bumper warranty, but certain things are wear items and excluded (wiper blades, tires, brakes, ball joints, tie rod ends, swaybar link ends, filters, etc.) I don't know what these would be on a railcar. A guess: HVAC filters, brakes and brake shoes, air hoses, door seals, truck springs? Brake valves as well?


----------



## KnightRail

JustOnce said:


> Is that a normal bad order rate? To my layman's eyes that appears high, but I realize that these thing see many more miles than a automobile does. I imagine certain things are considered wear items, just as on my Ford, I have a bumper to bumper warranty, but certain things are wear items and excluded (wiper blades, tires, brakes, ball joints, tie rod ends, swaybar link ends, filters, etc.) I don't know what these would be on a railcar. A guess: HVAC filters, brakes and brake shoes, air hoses, door seals, truck springs? Brake valves as well?



Keep in mind that these are food service cars and there are a lot more items that can have issues than a baggage car or coach. Something such as a coffee maker can shop a car.


----------



## JP1822

No, it's not a normal bad order rate. Amtrak can't figure out what to do with these cars.


----------



## Metra Electric Rider

Didn't they do a punch list/walkthrough kind of acceptance test when they took delivery? It does sound like a high rate of problems.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Didn't they do a punch list/walkthrough kind of acceptance test when they took delivery? It does sound like a high rate of problems.



With a microscope, ultrasound, dyes, X-Rays, and 3D scans probably...


However if your flooded with a bunch of extra cars, your focus is getting the cars that you don’t have a spares back on the road. Why use your limited mechanical forces to fix a dinner at night, when you have so many dinner cars sitting around ready to roll?


----------



## chrsjrcj

Harrisburgh is deadheading on 98-06 today.


----------



## Ryan

Metra Electric Rider said:


> Didn't they do a punch list/walkthrough kind of acceptance test when they took delivery? It does sound like a high rate of problems.



Sometimes it’s cheaper and easier to accept delivery of a flawed product, and conduct the repairs yourself. Doubly so if you have a contractual provision that allows you to retain the value of correcting the defects from the final payment.

Edit: another place it makes sense is if you have any changes or updates to the original design. Rather than pay the OEM to make the changes, it can be much cheaper and easier to just DIY the change in postdelivery.


----------



## KnightRail

Boston, Hartford, and a Dorm are headed to Chicago for a Long Distance test train...

Also a RUMOR out there that the Meteor is going the way of the Lakeshore at the start of the new fiscal year...


----------



## OBS

KnightRail said:


> Boston, Hartford, and a Dorm are headed to Chicago for a Long Distance test train...
> 
> Also a RUMOR out there that the Meteor is going the way of the Lakeshore at the start of the new fiscal year...



Might have heard it at same place, but I just read the same rumor about the Silver Meteor....


----------



## BBoy

Hoping they are not going to remove the dining car from 97/98.


----------



## jis

BBoy said:


> Hoping they are not going to remove the dining car from 97/98.



They won’t remove it. Rumor has it they might change the type of service provided in it.


----------



## Seaboard92

I hope they don’t do that either. The new meals on the Cap and LSL stink.


----------



## jis

Seaboard92 said:


> I hope they don’t do that either. The new meals on the Cap and LSL stink.


I think it is quite inevitable at this point. Oddly even RPA has generally refused to stand up and mount an effective opposition to this move. They apparently have other bigger fish to fry, in a different Diner, in a manner of speaking.


----------



## JustOnce

KnightRail said:


> Boston, Hartford, and a Dorm are headed to Chicago for a Long Distance test train...
> 
> Also a RUMOR out there that the Meteor is going the way of the Lakeshore at the start of the new fiscal year...


When are they moving them? My first thought was maybe I can catch them on a rail cam (North East PA on the LSL is on youtube right now). Second thought I swear someone said three V2s on the Capitol Limited the other day and I had a ??? moment thinking he had meant Superliner IIs.


----------



## Brian Battuello

Good question about the RPA and the meals. Why aren't they screaming about them? I'm taking my kid for a ride on the Empire Builder in a few weeks while we still can.


----------



## bretton88

jis said:


> I think it is quite inevitable at this point. Oddly even RPA has generally refused to stand up and mount an effective opposition to this move. They apparently have other bigger fish to fry, in a different Diner, in a manner of speaking.


I think the RPA is just being pragmatic about it and seems to have shifted their dining focus on how to improve the new product, and make it better for the customers. An Amtrak divorce from Aramark would be a nice start. I'd be interested to see if the SM was the first train to feature the new and improved diners with the heavy duty convection ovens. I suspect that would make a big difference vs the LSL and CL products now.


----------



## jis

They could do the same thing on the LSL since there is no difference between the Diner cars used on the LSL and the SM.


----------



## JP1822

Boston, Hartford, and a Dorm are headed to Chicago for a Long Distance test train...

What does this mean exactly? What long distance test train? To cycle in with the Cardinal? Two diners and a dorm car? For training? I can't imagine that it is for a "new" LD train of any sort. I'd be concerned Amtrak would want to use the cars for axle counts on the Midwest Corridors. Test train? That needs more info. 

I don't understand also why the Cardinal doesn't already have contemporary dining since it is serving same end points. And with announcement that everything east of Mississippi is to get "contemporary dining," does this mean the Silver Star gets a Viewliner II Diner - it should, why not? They could even charge for the meals, or pilot a program where the VIewliner II acts as a single level lounge/diner for purchase of meals, using a staff of one. Have the Viewliner Diners been through modifications so that they just have re-heating capability and storage of "box meals" only? I would imagine, that equipment was moved out to make way for storage and perhaps better convection ovens and beverage stations added. Unfortunately, the Viewliner Diners were designed to operate like a 1950s dining car, but with updated layout and better efficiencies. But that's not how Anderson will operate it!


----------



## KnightRail

Multiple Viewliner IIs are headed west on Monday along with Pacific Bend on a test train to LAX.


----------



## jis

KnightRail said:


> Multiple Viewliner IIs are headed west on Monday along with Pacific Bend on a test train to LAX.


Ooooh! Single level Southwest Chief?


----------



## me_little_me

jis said:


> Ooooh! Single level Southwest Chief?


Nah! They just want to see if the tracks out west are the same gauge as those in the east or if the earthquakes have widened them.


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

Test train for what? Let’s see how many Station don’t have ADA platform or even Lifts available?

Must be testing the ride, after all if the tracks can keep a Superliner upright, those Viewliners have no chance.

Still available for the CEO position. I am just saying.

What a waste of funds, both for a test train, and in buy the cars.


----------



## KnightRail

jis said:


> Ooooh! Single level Southwest Chief?



This will be separate from Three. Nine Three Three.


----------



## Thirdrail7

Oh boy. Well, some of these posts bring back an old thread that was never followed up on. However, now is the time. From the past, do some of you remember the old
LSL Michigan Reroute Rumors & Speculation thread? This was when rumors swirled they were going to reroute the Lake Shore for a month?

Towards the end, I made this post:



Thirdrail7 said:


> Indeed, but remember when things are told, there is often distortion when the last person receives the message. I have a feeling that someday, we're all going to sit back and have a nice laugh about this...assuming you haven't been laughing all along.
> 
> Perhaps, we'll even laugh at someone!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be continued..............



Well, the truth is they were assembling equipment, just as they are below:



JP1822 said:


> Boston, Hartford, and a Dorm are headed to Chicago for a Long Distance test train...
> 
> What does this mean exactly? What long distance test train? To cycle in with the Cardinal? Two diners and a dorm car? For training? I can't imagine that it is for a "new" LD train of any sort. I'd be concerned Amtrak would want to use the cars for axle counts on the Midwest Corridors. Test train? That needs more info.





Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Test train for what? Let’s see how many Station don’t have ADA platform or even Lifts available?
> 
> Must be testing the ride, after all if the tracks can keep a Superliner upright, those Viewliners have no chance.
> 
> Still available for the CEO position. I am just saying.
> 
> What a waste of funds, both for a test train, and in buy the cars.



Um.....all of these movements revolve around PTC test trains. They tend to fun the test trains based upon the routes utilized. You won't see a three car test train on a route that typically has 10 cars. This is because (as I understand) system they are using (unlike ACSES) is more train specific, based upon length, speed and equipment type.


In the above Reroute thread, they were attempting to assemble a consist that approached the length of the LSL to test on the various lines. The equipment was going to be needed for a month which was problematic at the time. However, PTC fell way behind so that particular train wasn't needed when originally called for.

The PTC test train that is on its way to LAX is an assortment of available equipment the fulfills the needed length so they can have the proper information to establish the profile.

Or something like that. I'm not an I-ETMS expert.

At any rate, PTC test trains have been running around for the better part of the year. They are attempting to use as much non revenue equipment as possible (particularly in the summer months) which is why you also see the Pacific Bend and Chargers in the mix. Can I think of better use for these cars....and the bag dorm and new sleeper(that still hasn't finished mods) that werer recently on a test train in the midwest?

Sure, but the tests still need to run when the hosts are ready for it. I'd rather sub a non revenue car for revenue car to run tests.


----------



## JustOnce

Test train #933 through La Plata, MO station yesterday:


----------



## Agent

I've seen that test train is eastbound on the route of _California Zephyr_ now. It might be going through Iowa today? I've also generally only seen this referred to as a Charger test train elsewhere. Are the Chargers being tested too, or is it basically people just guessing?


----------



## Agent

Well, I did catch the test train last night as it passed Agency, Iowa. It was following a very late #6 so it was after sunset when it came. Plus not getting much notice it was close resulted in not getting decent shot. You can see the lights on inside the cars and Chargers, at least.


----------



## Thirdrail7

I believe they were just guessing. Nothing like testing the chargers...behind the P42s. I'm sure they learned a lot.


----------



## Agent

There are two Viewliner II diners, _Frankfort_ and _Jackson_, riding behind the engines of Amtrak #5(19).


----------



## KnightRail

Agent said:


> There are two Viewliner II diners, _Frankfort_ and _Jackson_, riding behind the engines of Amtrak #5(19).




Likely related to UP’s axel count requirements and the need for axels out west on state supported services. Sad!


----------



## MARC Rider

KnightRail said:


> Likely related to UP’s axel count requirements and the need for axels out west on state supported services. Sad!


I don't think #5 is a state-supported service.


----------



## KnightRail

MARC Rider said:


> I don't think #5 is a state-supported service.



Correct. En route to axel count duty. #5 is just their deadhead to duty.


----------



## jis

Heh heh... the airline equivalent of this would be " Our air traffic control radars cannot reliably locate a single 737, so you must fly four of them in close formation for safety." LOL! Juuust kidding....

I suppose Anderson must be looking at this and other weird practices in connection with the state of railroads safety situation and shaking his head, and unfortunately in some other cases possibly over-reacting as a result.


----------



## TiBike

I'll look forward to seeing these on Surfliners. Anyone wanna bet that they can figure out a way to sell the seats during peak times? Or maybe just turn them into a premium class bar car.


----------



## MikefromCrete

KnightRail said:


> Likely related to UP’s axel count requirements and the need for axels out west on state supported services. Sad!


As far as I know, the only place UP requires axle count cars is on the River Runner route. I would think the California trains on UP (just the Capitol Corridor, I believe) have more than enough cars already in operation.


----------



## TiBike

Surfliners run on UP tracks, upcoast from Ventura and maybe some other segments too. According to a thread on Train Orders, UP is requiring 30 axels "north of Los Angeles", apparently on the Coast route (although that wasn't clear) "to shunt the circuits". Also not clear is whether it applies to county-owned/Metrolink track.


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

TiBike said:


> I'll look forward to seeing these on Surfliners. Anyone wanna bet that they can figure out a way to sell the seats during peak times? Or maybe just turn them into a premium class bar car.


The Viewliners and California cars have different vestibule heights so passengers would not be able to walk between them in the absence of a Superliner transition sleeper or similar car.


----------



## TiBike

Not an issue for the single level set, although IIRC it doesn’t need extra axels. For the bilevels, seems like a problem that needs solving. That’s what we do here in California. We’ll get back to you


----------



## Just-Thinking-51

How many baggage cars are parked?

Nice use of the new dinner cars. Were is that number for NBC News fleecing of America...


----------



## west point

TiBike said:


> Surfliners run on UP tracks, upcoast from Ventura and maybe some other segments too. According to a thread on Train Orders, UP is requiring 30 axles "north of Los Angeles", apparently on the Coast route (although that wasn't clear) "to shunt the circuits". Also not clear is whether it applies to county-owned/Metrolink track.


 30 an interesting number. That requires 8 - 4 axle units instead of 7 if the requirement was 28 axles.


----------



## jis

BTW, the word you guys have been meaning to use is "axle", not "axel".

An "axel" is "a jump in skating with a forward takeoff from the forward outside edge of one skate to the backward outside edge of the other, with one and a half turns in the air."

Whereas an "axle" is "a rod or spindle (either fixed or rotating) passing through the center of a wheel or group of wheels."


----------



## trainman74

jis said:


> BTW, the word you guys have been meaning to use is "axle", not "axel".
> 
> An "axel" is "a jump in skating with a forward takeoff from the forward outside edge of one skate to the backward outside edge of the other, with one and a half turns in the air."
> 
> Whereas an "axle" is "a rod or spindle (either fixed or rotating) passing through the center of a wheel or group of wheels."



We're talking about California, where "axel" is correct, according to Caltrans.






(To be fair, this is a Google Street View image from 2007 -- a few years after this, they put a sound wall along this stretch of I-5, and put up a new sign with the correct "axle" spelling.)


----------



## railiner

west point said:


> 30 an interesting number. That requires 8 - 4 axle units instead of 7 if the requirement was 28 axles.


Unless one of the “units” was the “Ocean View”....


----------



## railiner

That got me thinking...
Perhaps Amtrak should revise their PV policy....if they carried them on the “axle-count trains”, they could reduce the number of deadhead cars...a “win-win” for PV owners and Amtrak...


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## MikefromCrete

Is there a big demand for private cars on the Illini, Saluki and the River Runners? I don't think so. And you couldn't count on private cars running every day, so the "axle count" baggage cars, cafe cars, whatever would still be needed on non-private cars days. I'm surprised that CN and UP have been allowed to get away with this. It amounts to an admission that the railroad is not being operated safely since gates won't operate for every train. Fix the circuits, not demand a certain train length.


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## jis

railiner said:


> That got me thinking...
> Perhaps Amtrak should revise their PV policy....if they carried them on the “axle-count trains”, they could reduce the number of deadhead cars...a “win-win” for PV owners and Amtrak...



They would need to go and come back too with the same consist to be able to substitute for an axle count car. 

A better choice would be to acquire a few additional Coaches and just run a longer train providing higher capacity. 

Of course that will possibly require an additional crew and impact yield management adversely from the management’s POV.


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## jiml

Someone was listening to Guns 'N' Roses while painting the sign.


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## me_little_me

trainman74 said:


> We're talking about California, where "axel" is correct, according to Caltrans.
> 
> [Picture deleted]
> 
> (To be fair, this is a Google Street View image from 2007 -- a few years after this, they put a sound wall along this stretch of I-5, and put up a new sign with the correct "axle" spelling.)



Caltrans doesn't want truckers jumping around while driving so they prohibit triple axels. Double axels are accepted as many skaters and dancers can do them.


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## Seaboard92

Another thing on the PV front you need to think about. Who is paying for it? 

Is the PV owner paying the milage fee, and switching fee? Or is Amtrak waiving it for the help meeting requirements. 

Is Amtrak paying a rent to use the car, or contributing to maintenance to keep it road worthy? 

What would happen if the PV owner had a charter somewhere else they wanted to do? 

I like the outside the box thinking. But I don’t think it’ll work. 

Now for the Surfliners needing the extra axles that might benefit Bill Hatricks and the trail cars.


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## frequentflyer

So with the newly built diners going to storage, how difficult would it be to repurpose them as sleepers?


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## jis

frequentflyer said:


> So with the newly built diners going to storage, how difficult would it be to repurpose them as sleepers?


Who said they are going into storage? I suspect it is more likely that innovative uses as lounge/food service cars or such will be found for them and they may potentially replace cafe cars on mid-distance trains like the Palmetto and such, before anyone thinks of spending enormous amounts of money to gut and rebuild their interior.

My wild a$$ guess is that it will cost half of the original cost of the car or more. to repurpose them as Sleepers. I can almost bet that this is not going to happen at least in the near future.


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## cocojacoby

Latest news is rather interesting:

https://media.amtrak.com/2019/09/am...nd-flexible-dining-experience-on-five-routes/


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## jis

Specially since RPA has verified that even the Silver Star will get this service in 2020!


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## Ziv

I haven't seen this food in person but the breakfast sounds lame. Lunch and dinner sound fair at best. Not horrible dishes, just not very good. 
Sad to see the dining experience cheapened to this degree on those routes but this is something that may be reversed in the future if Amtrak gets better management. I hope.


cocojacoby said:


> Latest news is rather interesting:
> 
> https://media.amtrak.com/2019/09/am...nd-flexible-dining-experience-on-five-routes/


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## Dakota 400

Ziv said:


> I haven't seen this food in person but the breakfast sounds lame. Lunch and dinner sound fair at best. Not horrible dishes, just not very good.



That is also my opinion. Dining on a train is part of the rail experience that I enjoy and is a reason why I would consider going out of my way (due to where I live with no Amtrak service) to travel on Amtrak. Diluting this part of my experience does not make me more eager to book Amtrak.


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## drfonta

jis said:


> Specially since RPA has verified that even the Silver Star will get this service in 2020!



I saw this as well! I wonder when in 2020 it will be added.


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## drfonta

Another new article about the new food:

https://www.timesunion.com/7day-bus...ut-new-food-options-in-effort-to-14438367.php


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## railiner

Good to hear about the improved food service, but what really got my attention in that article was the statement from Roger Harris that Amtrak next year for the first time, will not lose any money, and become profitable, or at least recover all its operating costs thru revenue...

That is amazing, if it is true!


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## jis

railiner said:


> Good to hear about the improved food service, but what really got my attention in that article was the statement from Roger Harris that Amtrak next year for the first time, will not lose any money, and become profitable, or at least recover all its operating costs thru revenue...
> 
> That is amazing, if it is true!


That is apparently what is primarily behind all these bordering on the absurd, cost controls. I suspect that is on Anderson's goals list for his bonus ... err ... the only compensation he could collect from Amtrak.


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## railiner

Still...if he achieves that goal, whether one loves or loath’s him, he certainly will be respected, and might be recognized some day as one of Amtrak’s better presidents. Even more so, if Amtrak can grow as a result...


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## jis

railiner said:


> Still...if he achieves that goal, whether one loves or loath’s him, he certainly will be respected, and might be recognized some day as one of Amtrak’s better presidents. Even more so, if Amtrak can grow as a result...


That exactly is the silver lining I am hoping for and have cut some slack on Anderson and Co for that reason, much to the chagrin of many of my more dyed in the wool railfan friends. But we will have a while to wait before the proverbial fat lady sings on that one.


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## Ziv

Railiner, Jis, I read the article above and I have to admit that I don't know what Harris means by "breaks even". Does that mean that Amtrak won't need a Federal subsidy? If so, that would be huge. Harris stated:
"Roger Harris, Amtrak chief marketing and revenue officer, said the line expects to BREAK EVEN for the first time next year. Twenty years ago, Amtrak operated at a $1 billion deficit."
I find it hard to believe that Amtrak won't need a subsidy next year, because in the past my reading has indicated that Amtrak has gotten a federal subsidy in the amount of at least $1Bn per year, and some of the documents I have read have indicated that it has actually averaged between $1.3Bn and $1.7Bn per year.
It seems like just getting the federal subsidy under $1Bn would be a huge achievement and one worth celebrating. If they can get to breaking even that would be great news and could be a sign of good things to come.
I am sorry if I am missing the point here, or asking newby questions, but I am really curious to hear your interpretation of what Harris means by that statement. 




railiner said:


> Good to hear about the improved food service, but what really got my attention in that article was the statement from Roger Harris that Amtrak next year for the first time, will not lose any money, and become profitable, or at least recover all its operating costs thru revenue...
> 
> That is amazing, if it is true!


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## jis

It won't need Operating subsidy. It will still need Capital subsidy. Of course this depends also on what is characterized as Operating and what is characterized as Capital. At least the Auditors have to agree about the characterization in GAAP reporting.

It is well known that Amtrak's accounts were in utter shambles for quite a while. There were years when cash flow got so bad that Congress had to rescue it midterm too. Fortunately those days have been behind us and Boardman left it in very decent shape, notwithstanding all our bellyaching about various things did or did not do.


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## Ziv

Thanks for the explanation, Jis. That is not my idea of how a company can "break even", but it makes sense from a PR angle. 




jis said:


> It won't need Operating subsidy. It will still need Capital subsidy. Of course this depends also on what is characterized as Operating and what is characterized as Capital. At least the Auditors have to agree about the characterization in GAAP reporting.
> 
> It is well known that Amtrak's accounts were in utter shambles for quite a while. There were years when cash flow got so bad that Congress had to rescue it midterm too. Fortunately those days have been behind us and Boardman left it in very decent shape, notwithstanding all our bellyaching about various things did or did not do.


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## drfonta

Ziv said:


> Thanks for the explanation, Jis. That is not my idea of how a company can "break even", but it makes sense from a PR angle.


Here's an article from July that has the breakdown of operating losses and earnings for 2018 by route. Acela and NE regional being the big earners of course. I assume it's factual, HOWEVER, I did just read the RPA article of Aug 2018, which slams Amtrak's route accounting so take these numbers with a grain of salt. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...ak-s-long-distance-routes-lose-the-most-money


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## dbaud123

I'm surprised they don't lease out the dining cars and let independent restaurants/diners operate them. Sort of like what is done at stadiums where companies like Aramark operates the concession stands. Maybe even a Denny's franchise.


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## frequentflyer

dbaud123 said:


> I'm surprised they don't lease out the dining cars and let independent restaurants/diners operate them. Sort of like what is done at stadiums where companies like Aramark operates the concession stands. Maybe even a Denny's franchise.



Probably union contracts, this idea has been around for years, outsourcing the food.


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## Brian Battuello

When Pullman subcontracted the sleeping cars, did they also do the diners?


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## railiner

Brian Battuello said:


> When Pullman subcontracted the sleeping cars, did they also do the diners?


I may be wrong, but I don’t recall the Pullman Company operating any full dining cars. AFAIK, the only food service they operated, were some grill-sleeping cars, such as on the UP “Butte Special”, and some parlor cars offering light meal service...


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## MARC Rider

frequentflyer said:


> Probably union contracts, this idea has been around for years, outsourcing the food.


Wait a sec. They already outsource the food. The only thing that's cooked on board are the steaks and a couple of breakfast items. 

As far as "union contracts," assuming that's the real problem, all management needs to do is to tell the unions that they either play nice with the outsourcer or Amtrak will end all food service, and nobody will have jobs.

If Amtrak does outsource, they should probably avoid contracting with large foodservice corporations, as these have the same problem with bloated overhead that Amtrak has, and some of their product is not really all that good. In fact, they could set up independent catering companies, perhaps owned and managed by the former Amtrak foodservice workers. These could be companies designed to provide all involved with a living and provide a quality product that would attract passengers rather than companies designed to make investors and top executives rich.


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## PVD

Not a realistic view of how contracts work. Much of the food service employment is on state supported trains or the NEC. Ending food service completely is not happening. Threatening something you can't do accomplishes nothing.


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## MARC Rider

PVD said:


> Not a realistic view of how contracts work. Much of the food service employment is on state supported trains or the NEC. Ending food service completely is not happening. Threatening something you can't do accomplishes nothing.


Presumably these contracts are not indefinite and come up for renewal, no?
These are business contracts, not the Constitution of the United States.


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## PVD

Correct, but since the food service is not likely to go away, and the labor contracts are bargained under the provisions of the National Railway Labor Act, the work belonging to certain crafts is not going to change. Negotiation of contracts is not a unilateral process, and as to labor contracts, collective bargaining in good faith is law, although many companies do everything they can to shortchange the process. But under the NRLA there is a very distinct process.


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## Thirdrail7

frequentflyer said:


> Probably union contracts, this idea has been around for years, outsourcing the food.



There is no union contract that stops Amtrak from outsourcing food and beverage services although the fast act (paraphrasing) basically says that no jobs are to be cut while eliminating the losses. 

That being said, remember this thread: Amtrak request for proposal-Nationwide Food & Beverage Service.

The proposal allowed for outsourcing.


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## lordsigma

Two of the diners listed as concept prototyping....could this be the start of the future single level food service cars?


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## KnightRail

lordsigma said:


> Two of the diners listed as concept prototyping....could this be the start of the future single level food service cars?



More like conversions from the current as delivered table service ‘diners’ to self service grab-n-go pay the attendant ‘market’ concepts.
It’s certainly possible that this concept could be used in the amfleet replacement food service cars, and is said to be how the new Acela cafes will be, more like a you-grab then-pay market. Should look a lot better than the current Amfleet cafe design where everything is hidden in a chiller and you can’t see any of the products.


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## lordsigma

KnightRail said:


> More like conversions from the current as delivered table service ‘diners’ to self service grab-n-go pay the attendant ‘market’ concepts.
> It’s certainly possible that this concept could be used in the amfleet replacement food service cars, and is said to be how the new Acela cafes will be, more like a you-grab then-pay market. Should look a lot better than the current Amfleet cafe design where everything is hidden in a chiller and you can’t see any of the products.



It makes sense. Grab and go is a growing trend in food service. Perhaps they are eventually going to morph all the cafe cars into this format. The silver star receiving flex dining on May 1st is probably an opportunity to test this out if that’s the plan. If the goal for the single level LD trains is a single food service car this is probably a smart way to deliver it. This car could prepare grab n go items as well as the flexible dining meals for sleeper passengers and serve the flex dining meals in a “grab n go” setup.


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## jis

This would suggest then that the Sleeper Lounge on single level LD trains is just a passing phase until we get to single food service delivery car perhaps?


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## chrsjrcj

Hartford is in Niagara Falls, NY


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## jiml

chrsjrcj said:


> View attachment 16421
> 
> 
> Hartford is in Niagara Falls, NY


That's an odd location.


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## cocojacoby

jis said:


> This would suggest then that the Sleeper Lounge on single level LD trains is just a passing phase until we get to single food service delivery car perhaps?



After all the hype about the new exclusive Sleeper Lounges? Maybe the tables will still be for the sleeper passengers and there is going to be a pickup counter for coach passengers.


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## jis

cocojacoby said:


> After all the hype about the new exclusive Sleeper Lounges? Maybe the tables will still be for the sleeper passengers and there is going to be a pickup counter for coach passengers.


Since that will be impossible to enforce in the absence of any staff other than the LSA I suspect that won't happen.


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## cocojacoby

jis said:


> Since that will be impossible to enforce in the absence of any staff other than the LSA I suspect that won't happen.



They could simply put a door/gate in to stop steerage passengers from getting to "First Class" part of train.

I think that sounds horrible but it's equivalent to an airliner curtain I guess.


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## jis

cocojacoby said:


> They could simply put a door/gate in to stop steerage passengers from getting to "First Class" part of train.
> 
> I think that sounds horrible but it's equivalent to an airliner curtain I guess.


Oh. I see what you are saying. There will just be a counter at the Coach end, and the tables end will be entirely at the Sleeper end with a door preventing access from the Coach end to the Sleeper end. Yes, that is possible. 

But that would remove any lounge access of any sort for Coach passengers. A definite downgrade from the current situation. They could still keep an unstaffed Amdinette in the consist for the use of the Coach passengers as a lounge too. That would meet the staff headcount reduction goals while letting the Coach passengers have somewhere other than their seats to mingle in.


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## cocojacoby

Yeah but I don't think they really care about providing lounge space for coach passengers anymore. They want revenue so adding another coach would be their plan I would think.

My fantasy idea is for Amtrak to get their hands on some Bombardier or Kawasaki bilevels and convert them into a food/lounge car for the entire train. Make the upper deck a full "dome" lounge and put a kitchen in the center of the lower level with table sections at each end . . . one for coach passengers and one for sleeper passengers.

I think that would be a better solution but then what are they going to do with the new VII diners?


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## Thirdrail7

jiml said:


> That's an odd location.



Other equipment will meet it and head to play with the new high-speed train.


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## Palmetto

cocojacoby said:


> They could simply put a door/gate in to stop steerage passengers from getting to "First Class" part of train.
> 
> I think that sounds horrible but it's equivalent to an airliner curtain I guess.



You're right. It does sound horrible.


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## jiml

Thirdrail7 said:


> Other equipment will meet it and head to play with the new high-speed train.


I was hoping they were loaning one to VIA for testing.


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## TiBike

No, the high speed train needs axle count cars.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Viewliner Dining Car Springfield was hitching a ride at the end of train 97 yesterday--anyone know what it was up to?

(97 had a dining car in the regular place--Madison, I think--so this was definitely an extra.)


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## Thirdrail7

PM move.


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## Mystic River Dragon

Thirdrail7 said:


> PM move.



Thanks, Thirdrail7. I am having a brain freeze (or an overload of acronyms in my life)--could you remind me what PM stands for?


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## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Thanks, Thirdrail7. I am having a brain freeze (or an overload of acronyms in my life)--could you remind me what PM stands for?



Positioning Move


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## Mystic River Dragon

AmtrakBlue said:


> Positioning Move



Oh, of course--thanks!


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## AmtrakBlue

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Oh, of course--thanks!



I had to think about it myself, though I figured that was why the diner was deadheading.


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## Just-Thinking-51

PM is Preventive Maintenance.


The vehicle is due for work.
Why it’s deadheading and not in service is for convenience, with a small chance of something broken that would prevent it been used as a dinner.


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## OBS

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> PM is Preventive Maintenance.
> 
> 
> The vehicle is due for work.
> Why it’s deadheading and not in service is for convenience, with a small chance of something broken that would prevent it been used as a dinner.


This is the answer.


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## me_little_me

Mystic River Dragon said:


> Thanks, Thirdrail7. I am having a brain freeze (or an overload of acronyms in my life)--could you remind me what PM stands for?


Preventive Maintenance


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## Thirdrail7

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Why it’s deadheading and not in service is for convenience, with a small chance of something broken that would prevent it been used as a dinner.



They often deadhead equipment as you stated so it can be conveniently added/removed. It keeps them from having to break apart the train later.


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## Thirdrail7

lordsigma said:


> Two of the diners listed as concept prototyping....could this be the start of the future single level food service cars?



How do you like the concept?


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## jis

I have seen a secret photo of the proposed new layout.


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## lordsigma

I suspect the photo I saw is the same. New counter installed on the end of the kitchen - much smaller amount of new seating. Looks like they could be going for something similar to the Acela cafe but the photo I saw at least it isn’t totally clear.


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## Seaboard92

I’ve heard a crew rumor from someone on one of the effected trains who said the diners were coming back. I’ll believe that when Gardner is on unemployment but not before.


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## Dakota 400

Seaboard92 said:


> I’ve heard a crew rumor from someone on one of the effected trains who said the diners were coming back. I’ll believe that when Gardner is on unemployment but not before.



The diners may be returning? That's the most encouraging news that I have heard today.


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## Brian Battuello

I heard the same rumor from an assistant conductor on the lake shore limited about 10 days ago. He said it was nothing official just talk around the barn…


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## MikefromCrete

That's good news if its true, but I wouldn't put too much faith in roundhouse gossip.


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## Willbridge

My father, now 97 years old, used to enjoy riding in the lead coach of secondary trains. The lights would stay on all night as short-haul passengers were accommodated and the employees riding on passes would repeat all the rumors. If there was a shortage of rumors, they would tell stories about colleagues and customers. He enjoyed listening, but knew how to evaluate them.


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## Mail4MrTed

Seaboard92 said:


> I’ve heard a crew rumor from someone on one of the effected trains who said the diners were coming back. I’ll believe that when Gardner is on unemployment but not before.


We recently rode from New Orleans to New York. There was a new diner on the train for "first class" passengers and one "lead service attendant" in the diner. Who she leading since there were no other employees was not clear. Everything was self service. For some elderly people that was not easy. One sleeping car attendant said he was not going to even offer food service to people's rooms! One the way back, the attendant took orders and delivered the "food bowls," as I call them, to the tables. She asked me not to write a letter complimenting her on the extra effort because she didn't "want to get in trouble." Imagine getting in trouble for providing service! So, now that Amtrak has fired a lot of dining car employees, are diner really coming back? Iffy at best with the current crowd in control.


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## cocojacoby

Seaboard92 said:


> I’ve heard a crew rumor from someone on one of the effected trains who said the diners were coming back. I’ll believe that when Gardner is on unemployment but not before.



Well maybe someone with a brain realized that it was impossible to satisfy the needs of an entire single-level LD train with one limited food service car?


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## chrsjrcj

Possibly just in reference to the Silver Star?


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## Mail4MrTed

GaSteve said:


> The Silver Service and Crescent consists have been running the sleepers in the front for some time now.
> 
> Hmmm... Just noticed on the other thread that the sleepers have been moved to the rear on Silver trains. Don't know about the Crescent, but its consists differ slightly because of the Business Class coach.



On a recent New York/New Orleans trip, the sleepers were at the front of the train, then diner, then cafe. While the car rode OK South of Washington, we were very alarmed at the "wagging" that went on on the Northeast Corridor when the speed was up near 100 mph. The sleeper was literally slamming sideways, back and forth at an alarming enough intensity that I was worried about an accident.


----------



## PVD

I thought BC on the Crescent was scrapped. Last time I was on the Crescent it was an AM-2 in front of the sleepers, but I'm pretty sure it isn't there anymore.


----------



## Thirdrail7

PVD said:


> I thought BC on the Crescent was scrapped. Last time I was on the Crescent it was an AM-2 in front of the sleepers, but I'm pretty sure it isn't there anymore.




The quoted post from @GaSteve is from 2016. The sleepers are typically in the rear (unless the BHM track work causes them to run around the train at ATL) and business class on the Crescent has been gone for a couple of years. 


That being said, the concept car is just that. It is a concept car.


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## PVD

That makes sense, I just saw it in the post above, not realizing they were commenting on something that old....


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## Larry H.

I've never liked the changes Amtrak made of having the sleepers up front. I much preferred them in the rear. There was a reason the old Pullman Cars had a sign in them about the number of years without a death in the Pullman section. That of course being due to the worst damage normally was up front. I am always nervous about that.


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## Just-Thinking-51

Two type of derailment.

A) the train has the damage on the front.
B) the train has the damage to the rear.

When your engine hits something the deceleration forces impact the front of the train.

When there is a track defect the front of the train will cross over the defect and the following cars will cause it the rail to spread, then the rear of the train hits the ground and gets the drag/deceleration damage.

Front of the train has less slack action and a better ride. The rear likes to get knock around from the ride. In the front you get to hear the horn for ever crossing.

High fare passenger complaint no matter where the car is located. For ever plus there is a negative.


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## Bob Dylan

afigg said:


> Trenton lost out because the Viewliner II diner names were assigned in alphabetical order for state capitals east of the Mississippi. Check the list of assigned and planned names for the Viewliners at On-Track On-Line. The diner names start with Albany and run through Tallahasee. Of course, Amtrak could change the naming scheme and, say, drop Frankfurt KY, because it is not as if Kentucky is a hotbed of Amtrak support and service.


And neither is Tallahasee!


----------

