# Safety and environmental issues with Amtrak's Flex Dining concept



## 20th Century Rider (Jul 3, 2020)

The deterioration of food service on Amtrak has brought much discussion regarding disappointment. However other more serious issues have surfaced regarding food safety and health; as well as recycling of food product waste. Here is a repost from earlier today. How do others on this forum feel about this???

While the 'Flex Dining' food product itself may be edible for occasional intake in a critical situation, there are three reasons why it is not recommended for human consumption. The first two involve health risk, the last is environmental. I hope Amtrak management is watching our forum and will rethink its responsibilities to both safety and the environment.

1] Carcinogenic and toxic properties of Polyethylene Terephthalate plate when heated.*
2] Sodium at unhealthy level.
3] Food and container waste is not recycled or reused.

* If you will be 'Flex Dining' your food will be heated in the plastic dish. Turn it over and you will see the designation as '1' in the triangular recycling stamp required by law. You owe it to yourself to check this out:

www.madesafe.org
#ChemicalCallout: Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE)
Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET or PETE) does not readily break down in the environment and it may pose some toxicity risks.
www.madesafe.org www.madesafe.org


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 3, 2020)

I agree with most everything you state.

How much was being trashed before the change in food services? The last time I was in a dinner the plates were plastic it seems, which I assume were being tossed.

When did Amtrak last use reusable plates, utensils, and cups that were washed and put back in service at a later time?


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 3, 2020)

McLeansvilleAppFan said:


> I agree with most everything you state.
> 
> How much was being trashed before the change in food services? The last time I was in a dinner the plates were plastic it seems, which I assume were being tossed.
> 
> When did Amtrak last use reusable plates, utensils, and cups that were washed and put back in service at a later time?



Recycling problems existed when they eliminated using china and glassware... they just put it in big boxes and unload at designated stops... its taken away by contracted garbage collector. They said it was all going to landfill but I can't be certain. That includes unused everything from unused dinner rolls after dinner is over... to aluminum pans the food is stored in... and all kinds of plastics including the plateware. I have been told time and again when questioning... even in recycling conscious California on the Coast Starlight... it all goes to landfill.

The reason why they stopped the china ware and glass ware was because it was too costly to house a dishwasher and required water. But this is no excuse as this has been used for decades. It was ALL ABOUT CUTTING COSTS... at the sacrifice of the environment. That is one reason why government funding is crucial for Amtrak and the environment.


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## the_traveler (Jul 3, 2020)

I agree.

For 100 years (or however long it’s been), trains have had china, cups, glasses, pots, pans, etc... AND the necessary water to wash them on the train. The REAL savings is to not have to pay the extra employee to do the washing!


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 3, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> I agree.
> 
> For 100 years (or however long it’s been), trains have had china, cups, glasses, pots, pans, etc... AND the necessary water to wash them on the train. The REAL savings is to not have to pay the extra employee to do the washing!


The government should put the environment before cost cutting. Wait a minute! What ever happened to the EPA when it comes to recycling waste from the trains??? If the government is committed to the environment it would only make sense they would stop throwing toxic plastics into landfill. But! But! But! The government is disjointed and goes in different directions that are in conflict with each other. Wastes even more money and makes no sense! Where oh where is the top leadership???


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## PVD (Jul 3, 2020)

Disposable doesn't have to mean bad, there are recyclable and/or compostable options. Of course they may not be as cheap, or may actually require some effort to keep sorted.. Being stuck in the apartment, I went through a variety of prepared or frozen foods, and found that most of the mainstream products are too high in Sodium, Saturated Fats, and/or Added Sugars. Same thing for most meals that you can pick up in a drive through. If you look at the most popular restaurants, or store products that the American people buy, I'm not sure what Amtrak buys is any worse nutritionally than typical people buy, unfortunately, that isn't very good. That is clearly an area for improvement, at least make an effort to offer a couple of healthier options.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 3, 2020)

PVD said:


> Disposable doesn't have to mean bad, there are recyclable and/or compostable options. Of course they may not be as cheap, or may actuallyrquire some effort to keep sorted.. Being stuck in the apartment, I went through a variety of prepared or frozen foods, and found that most of the mainstream products are too high in Sodium, Saturated Fats, and/or Added Sugars. Same thing for most meals that you can pick up in a drive through. That is clearly an area for improvement, at least make an effort to offer a couple of healthier options.


Right on... that is exactly what we are talking about! Food preparation technology exists where less processing can allow for lower sodium and fat, while still maintaining flavor, texture, and taste. That also means doing away with 'fillers' and 'extenders,' and high sodium 'flavor enhancers.' Remember, as a sleeping car passenger, those meals are generously costed into that high fare already. Highly suspect that some of that money may be diverted to other places... but that's another discussion.


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## rickycourtney (Jul 5, 2020)

The thing is... it doesn’t need to be this way and airline food proves we can do better.

Yes, airline food.

I know a lot of railfans like to snicker and make fun of airline food. But the truth is, since airlines eliminated free food in coach on domestic flights... their central kitchens have re-focused on preparing meals for first class customers. That change demanded that they step up their game.

Check out this video showing how Delta and their contractor GateGourmet prepare meals for first class passengers:


I see no reason why Amtrak couldn’t do something similar, although some changes may be necessary.

Place the items separately in foil containers, pack real plates and silverware into carts and have the crew plate everything just before servicing. When meals are done, the crew places the dirty dishes back into the carts for cleaning at the central kitchen, they place the recyclable items into a recycling cart, and the trash into another cart.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 5, 2020)

rickycourtney said:


> The thing is... it doesn’t need to be this way and airline food proves we can do better.
> 
> Yes, airline food.
> 
> ...



That's right in line with what I've been saying... but in a way, the present prepackaged meals, which are so very very bad in terms of food safety and quality are probably being outsourced from some vendor that makes them in vast amounts in very much the same way you describe with GateGourmet. 

So why doesn't Amtrak solicit other sources such as GateGourmet for a more appropriately qualitative food experience? The supply points would be in major passenger rail centers such as Miami, Los Angeles, Boston, etc. Is there something else going on that is being hidden from disclosure? I couldn't find the Flex meals vendor anywhere. Who is that vendor??? When Anderson started this flex idea to cut spending... certainly he knew about food service companies from his experience in the airline industry.

Thank you for bringing up a good point!


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## MARC Rider (Jul 5, 2020)

PVD said:


> I went through a variety of prepared or frozen foods, and found that most of the mainstream products are too high in Sodium, Saturated Fats, and/or Added Sugars. Same thing for most meals that you can pick up in a drive through.


Same thing for freshly cooked gourmet food at fine restaurants.


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## Dakota 400 (Jul 5, 2020)

rickycourtney said:


> The thing is... it doesn’t need to be this way and airline food proves we can do better.
> 
> Yes, airline food.
> 
> ...




Fascinating video and particularly being viewed by one who flies Delta First Class and Delta One! I have never had a disappointing meal on Delta. Even when it has been a sandwich type option, the entree and other items were good.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 6, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> While the 'Flex Dining' food product itself may be edible for occasional intake in a critical situation, there are three reasons why it is not recommended for human consumption. The first two involve health risk, the last is environmental. I hope Amtrak management is watching our forum and will rethink its responsibilities to both safety and the environment.
> 
> 1] Carcinogenic and toxic properties of Polyethylene Terephthalate plate when heated.*
> * If you will be 'Flex Dining' your food will be heated in the plastic dish. Turn it over and you will see the designation as '1' in the triangular recycling stamp required by law. You owe it to yourself to check this out:



When did they start heating up food in the serving dishes? Thais must be a very recent turn of events if this is the case. So recent that none of the OBS employees I asked stated they heated the food in these dishes.



20th Century Rider said:


> 2] Sodium at unhealthy level.



This is true,



20th Century Rider said:


> 3] Food and container waste is not recycled or reused.



What makes you think that and when did this change? When it was named "fresh choices" and the food came in boxes and bags, it was a nightmarish mess of garbage and waste. However, when they altered the operation to Contemporary Dining, they started using the serving trays. They are meant to be reused many times and are treated just like the old china plates....meaning they are run through the dishwasher at FDA approved temperatures for sanitizing. Trains without dishwashers are still supposed to collect the trays and return them to the next crew base, where they can be cleaned and reused.

It is basically as described by FrensicPic below:



FrensicPic said:


> On the LSL...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unless something has dramatically changed, two of your three points are not supposed to occur.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> When did they start heating up food in the serving dishes?



What are you suggesting they are heated up in? 



Thirdrail7 said:


> they started using the serving trays. They are meant to be reused many times



The poster said food and container waste. The poster didn’t say anything about the tray.

There is also additional waste with the plastic utensils and paper napkins.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> What are you suggesting they are heated up in?



I'm not suggesting anything...which is why I didn't start a thread stating" * If you will be 'Flex Dining' your food will be heated in the plastic dish. Turn it over and you will see the designation as '1' in the triangular recycling stamp required by law."

I haven't seen everything heated up but what I have seen wasn't in a plastic dish. Indeed, the only plastic related dish I've seen is the serving tray. Granted, my exposure is limited...but what is the basis for the original statement?



crescent-zephyr said:


> The poster said food and container waste. The poster didn’t say anything about the tray.



Well, since you're speaking for the OP, what he actually said was " Food and container waste is not recycled or reused."Perhaps you can clue us in as to source all of this "food and container" waste and what isn't recycled and reused? I'm personally not a fan of eating recycled or reused food and since the only thing that can readily be recycled are certain packaging (which is actually taken care of before boarding by Aramark) and the service trays, plus the standard recyclables, I guess we'd need to know what exactly the OP (or you) thinks is occurring.


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 6, 2020)

rickycourtney said:


> I see no reason why Amtrak couldn’t do something similar, although some changes may be necessary.
> 
> Place the items separately in foil containers, pack real plates and silverware into carts and have the crew plate everything just before servicing. When meals are done, the crew places the dirty dishes back into the carts for cleaning at the central kitchen, they place the recyclable items into a recycling cart, and the trash into another cart.





20th Century Rider said:


> So why doesn't Amtrak solicit other sources such as GateGourmet for a more appropriately qualitative food experience? The supply points would be in major passenger rail centers such as Miami, Los Angeles, Boston, etc. Is there something else going on that is being hidden from disclosure? I couldn't find the Flex meals vendor anywhere. Who is that vendor??? When Anderson started this flex idea to cut spending... certainly he knew about food service companies from his experience in the airline industry.
> 
> Thank you for bringing up a good point!



Perhaps it has something to do with the costs and the congressional mandate. Amtrak's food and beverage choices over the last few years have a lot to do with PRIIA and the FAST act. One of the provisions is to eliminate F&B losses and by Dec 4th, 2020, federal funds are not be used to cover F&B losses.

That's just a few months away.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> I haven't seen everything heated up but what I have seen wasn't in a plastic dish.



That’s what I was asking.... what are the meals being heated up in? 



Thirdrail7 said:


> Well, since you're speaking for the OP, what he actually said was " Food and container waste is not recycled or reused."Perhaps you can clue us in as to source all of this "food and container" waste and what isn't recycled and reused?



I’m not speaking for anyone but myself. 

I’m guessing the serving dishes, plastic utensils and napkins were all thrown away. 

Many have questioned how much Amtrak actually recycles anything, I have no way of proving either way.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 6, 2020)

This appears to have been heated up within the dish based on the water droplets on the plastic cover.
This was on the CL last October.


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## AmtrakBlue (Jul 6, 2020)

And, yes, they had an area for us to return our trays. Not that everyone noticed as I saw some in the trash.


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## dlagrua (Jul 6, 2020)

The plastic that the prepackaged meals come in, is not biodegradable. The food is not only unhealthy, the containers will end up in some landfill that will only serve to pollute the environment. Not that long ago Amtrak and the airlines served food in ceramic/china dining ware . Today its all about fast, faster, cheap and throwaway with no regard as to the consequences.


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## railiner (Jul 6, 2020)

At least the fast-food chains have gotten away from styrofoam and plastic, and substituted paper where possible....


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## the_traveler (Jul 6, 2020)

Every time I’ve seen somebody order a burger/hot dog/pizza/sandwich/etc... from the cafe, I’ve seen the OBS just slice the wrapper to vent it, and put the entire package in the convection oven. I’ve never saw them take it out and put it on a plate before heating it up! And then take it off the plate and put it back in the wrapper.

Even that Delta video shows the plastic trays of food coming out of the convection oven!


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## Qapla (Jul 6, 2020)

I prefer paper napkins over cloth as I find most cloth ones do not really clean my hands and/or mouth/face like the paper ones do.

There are recyclable/biodegradable plates, eat ware and other food service implements made from plant by-products. These can compost in as little as 6 months when discarded. Some of these are even able to be washed in a dishwasher and reused. Paper napkins are also biodegradable.

Now, as for "paper straws" ... don't get me started on those - our county has outlawed plastic straws and required the paper ones. My girls call them "toilet paper tubes" - especially since most of them start to deteriorate before you can finish your drink!


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## joelkfla (Jul 6, 2020)

Qapla said:


> Now, as for "paper straws" ... don't get me started on those - our county has outlawed plastic straws and required the paper ones. My girls call them "toilet paper tubes" - especially since most of them start to deteriorate before you can finish your drink!


All straws were paper when I was growing up, and we got along just fine. IMHO, plastic straws are are one of the most senseless and wasteful inventions ever.


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## railiner (Jul 6, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> All straws were paper when I was growing up, and we got along just fine. IMHO, plastic straws are are one of the most senseless and wasteful inventions ever.


I seem to recall that, too...they may have had a wax coating of some kind....


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## RichieRich (Jul 6, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> All straws were paper when I was growing up, and we got along just fine.


Bet they were't "biodegradable" back then. The ones today "biodegrade" in my mouth after a few sips!


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## Qapla (Jul 6, 2020)

Yes, the straws I grew up with were paper - they were wax coated. That was one of the reasons they moved toward plastic straws, the paper ones did not deteriorate in the landfills ... due to the wax coatings. Uncoated ones did not hold up back then any better than they do now.

The same was true of the paper cups back then (before the styro ones) - the wax coating that made them usable prevented/delayed them from decomposing

That was one of the "arguments" for introducing styro cups andplastic straws ... they were "reusable" so they were supposed to be more environmentally friendly


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2020)

Wax coated milk cartons were awful, then came along different types of thin plastic coatings we see on paper products today, notwithstanding the risks of certain plastics, they also make it difficult or impossible to recycle, now we see many more straight up plastic containers.


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## me_little_me (Jul 6, 2020)

RichieRich said:


> Bet they were't "biodegradable" back then. The ones today "biodegrade" in my mouth after a few sips!


Another complainer! Here companies are trying to do something to improve their meals by adding fiber and you complain about it. I will admit they use the NY Daily News to make the straw whereas they used to use the NY Times. But expenses do have to be cut back.


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2020)

Does anyone remember when folks started to look at fiber content more seriously and one of the bread companies was using sterilized sawdust powder to ramp up fiber content?


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## rickycourtney (Jul 6, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> Even that Delta video shows the plastic trays of food coming out of the convection oven!


Nearly of the food in that video was contained in metal or paper containers, especially the items in the convection oven. The one exception I saw was plastic lids over the appetizer plates (which was a chilled item, just like Amtrak's "salads") which looked like they could be stacked up and recycled.

The problem is, Amtrak is clearly not trying very hard here. I mean, those pictures of the food served with the film still on the entree bowl? That's just straight-up bad presentation. I also think serving the salad with a plastic lid is bad presentation, but more forgivable.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

I got the luxurious metal foil - and I didn’t even have to pay extra!!!


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 6, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> 3] Food and container waste is not recycled or reused.





Thirdrail7 said:


> What makes you think that and when did this change? When it was named "fresh choices" and the food came in boxes and bags, it was a nightmarish mess of garbage and waste. However, when they altered the operation to Contemporary Dining, they started using the serving trays.


What makes you think we can't see it with our own two eyes? Out here on the national network Amtrak has been trashing nearly everything placed on the table ever since they got rid of the Corelle style dishes. Where they used to toss two or three bags per service stop they now trash a dozen bags or more. You can see it being removed and you can see it being tossed in the dumpster if you stick around long enough. The level of single use waste has increased so much the service carts can barely manage to haul it away.



Thirdrail7 said:


> They are meant to be reused many times and are treated just like the old china plates....meaning they are run through the dishwasher at FDA approved temperatures for sanitizing. Trains without dishwashers are still supposed to collect the trays and return them to the next crew base, where they can be cleaned and reused.


I don't understand why you continue to cling to a flimsy little serving tray that may or may not be reused as if it somehow invalidates all the other trash Amtrak routinely generates and throws away.



Qapla said:


> Yes, the straws I grew up with were paper - they were wax coated. That was one of the reasons they moved toward plastic straws, the paper ones did not deteriorate in the landfills ... due to the wax coatings. [...] The same was true of the paper cups back then [...] the wax coating that made them usable prevented/delayed them from decomposing. That was one of the "arguments" for introducing styro cups andplastic straws ... they were "reusable" so they were supposed to be more environmentally friendly


Who claimed waxed straws and cups won't degrade and deteriorate? Who argued that Styrofoam was more environmentally friendly than waxed paper? You can see wax coated cups biodegrading on the side of almost any road if you look close enough. Plastic straws didn't become ubiquitous until kitchen staff were being replaced with automated dishwashers. Jets of heated water weren't enough to remove lipstick from reusable cups so rather than rehire a human restaurants started supplying plastic straws to collect the lipstick and be tossed in the trash. Styrofoam was sold on cost, weight, and insulation rather than some fake environmental benefit. If you don't like paper you can buy metal straws that last a lifetime.


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## Qapla (Jul 6, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> It's not clear to me who was making these declarations. Who was claiming wax coated straws and cups won't degrade and deteriorate? Who was "arguing" that Styrofoam was more environmentally friendly than wax coated paper?



When I first started in food service in 1971 we used waxed coated paper cups and paper straws. Our vendors who sold us these products, not only told us about the "problems" with the wax coated disposables, they showed us printed reports from "environmentalists" describing the lack of decomposition for these products and pushed the idea of using the more (at the time) "environmentally friendly" plastic/Styrofoam replacements.

Back then, since plastic disposables were fairly new, their true impact on the environment was not yet known ... or proved. Many promoted the idea that, once disposed, the "rays from the sun" would quickly break the plastic down and make it "degrade" in an environmentally way - we know now they were "full of it" - but, at the time, armed with their "studies" it all sounded good. We did start using plastic straws but stuck with the paper cups (we only used the paper cups for someone who wanted to "take it wit them" since we used washable hard-plastic cups in the dining room - we had much less breakage with the plastic cups than the glass ones).

I seldom use a bottom-siphon/soda-sucker/sissy-stick to drink my beverage - I prefer to drink it "the old fashioned way", directly from the glass/cup/bottle/can/container. I also prefer a glass cup to plastic.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

Qapla said:


> I seldom use a bottom-siphon/soda-sucker/sissy-stick to drink my beverage



How kind of you to refer to people who have disabilities that require the use of a straw “sissy’s”


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## Qapla (Jul 6, 2020)

Interesting you didn't seem to notice the "bottom-siphon" or "soda-sucker" ... and there is nothing wrong with people with disabilities siphoning their beverage from the bottom or sucking it through a straw  

I didn't refer to them as "sissy's" - that is the one you applied, not me (it seems that humor is a thing of the past)


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## the_traveler (Jul 6, 2020)

Qapla said:


> I seldom use a bottom-siphon/soda-sucker/sissy-stick to drink my beverage


But you did say “sissy-stick” in your post!


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 6, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> What makes you think we can't see it with our own two eyes? Out here on the national network Amtrak has been trashing nearly everything placed on the table ever since they got rid of the Corelle style dishes. Where they used to toss two or three bags per service stop they now trash a dozen bags or more. You can see it being removed and you can see it being tossed in the dumpster if you stick around long enough. The level of single use waste has increased so much the service carts can barely manage to haul it away.
> 
> 
> I don't understand why you continue to cling to a flimsy little serving tray that may or may not be reused as if it somehow invalidates all the other trash Amtrak routinely generates and throws away.



I’ll take these both at once since it helps dive into what I was referring to. This
thread refers to the safety and environmental impact of Amtrak’s Flexible Dining concept. 

If someone started a general thread about Amtrak’s food service waste or environmental impact, everything you mentioned makes sense. 

However, you and others summed up my thought. What makes the flexible dining more wasteful than the existing services? The dishwashers are still being used, I’m not noticing much more plastic usage than the average cafe car use and in certain areas, flexible dining is only able to sleeping car passengers. 

The reason I keep bring up those trays is that is major addition to the operation and would be a major source of waste....and they are recyclable.

So, how is this a problem unique to the flexible dining program?


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 6, 2020)

ThirdRail can correct me if I am wrong on this. But I don't think it is possible to use Gate Gourmet or other airline vendors strictly because of the distance from the airports to the various rail yards. 

For instance lets look at Chicago which services 8 long distance trains with "Full Service". 

Distance: 19.4 Miles (Gate Gourmet)
Travel Time: 33 Minutes in current traffic 17:10 CT

From my personal knowledge of stocking a full service diner with real ingredients it takes roughly 20-30 minutes to stock a diner, and another ten minutes to do inventory to make sure you have enough for the trip. Now with a preprepared meal you can probably cut this time down to 15 minutes to stock it, with one person, and another 10 minutes to do inventory. 

So the specialized truck that Gate Gourmet uses to help load airliners is for sure away from ORD for at least an hour and a half. Keep in mind that Gate Gourmet also services all UA, DL, AA, VS, BA, LA, AC, QF, AR, AV, IB, CA, AF, EK, TG, LX, AZ. Remember that even Regional jets rate catering and stocking from one of these trucks. So you are wanting to drive a truck for eight different Amtrak departures a day. Occupying a truck for 12 hours a day. I am sure these trucks are in short supply at an airport the size of ORD, and any delay to a truck can cascade into hours of delays across the country. Remember airlines generally turn a plane within an hour of its arrival at the next destination. 

I don't think it is really practical for an airline oriented company to service Amtrak because even though it is a similar field to what they currently do, the trains aren't serviced at the airport. Whereas a company like Aramark is accustomed to running many far flung commissaries and venues. So unless Gate Gourmet wants to go into a niche field with little gain to their bottom line we won't see Airline style companies coming to Amtrak.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> ThirdRail can correct me if I am wrong on this. But I don't think it is possible to use Gate Gourmet or other airline vendors strictly because of the distance from the airports to the various rail yards.
> 
> For instance lets look at Chicago which services 8 long distance trains with "Full Service".
> 
> ...



How far away are the existing commissaries that supply Amtrak trains?


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## joelkfla (Jul 6, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> ThirdRail can correct me if I am wrong on this. But I don't think it is possible to use Gate Gourmet or other airline vendors strictly because of the distance from the airports to the various rail yards.
> 
> For instance lets look at Chicago which services 8 long distance trains with "Full Service".
> 
> ...


Why would they need to use a special truck? Wouldn't any refrigerated truck do? There's no need for the scissor lifts.


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## railiner (Jul 6, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> Why would they need to use a special truck? Wouldn't any refrigerated truck do? There's no need for the scissor lifts.


Correct. I used to drive a commissary truck between Penn Station, and the Sunnyside yard commissary...just a refrigerated straight truck.


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## the_traveler (Jul 6, 2020)

Agreed.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 6, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> When did they start heating up food in the serving dishes? Thais must be a very recent turn of events if this is the case. So recent that none of the OBS employees I asked stated they heated the food in these dishes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Thirdrail7 said:


> When did they start heating up food in the serving dishes? Thais must be a very recent turn of events if this is the case. So recent that none of the OBS employees I asked stated they heated the food in these dishes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS REGARDING THE THREE FLEX DINING CONCERNS

SUMMARY: Food content rates a ‘1’ however, overall, this cuisine non recommendable. 
1] Carcinogenic properties of Polyethylene Terephthalate plate when heated.
2] Sodium at unhealthy level. 
3] Waste is not recycled or reused. 

REGARDING QUESTIONING ABOUT #1 ABOVE, IT WAS STATED:
“When did they start heating up food in the serving dishes? Thais must be a very recent turn of events if this is the case. So recent that none of the OBS employees I asked stated they heated the food in these dishes.”

RESPONSE: The food content is contained directly within Polyethylene Terephthalate plates; these plates containing the food are heated directly; most show heat warping when served to the passenger. Perhaps the OBS employees misunderstood your question. Others on this forum will confirm that the food is contained within the plastic, and when looking at the recycling code underneath the plate, there is a #1 in the triangle confirming the composite to be Polyethylene Terephthalate. Disclosure required by law.

REGARDING QUESTIONING ABOUT #2 ABOVE, IT WAS STATED: This is true. Low quality processed foods tend to have much sodium to enhance flavor and as a preservative.

REGARDING QUESTIONING ABOUT #2 ABOVE, IT WAS STATED: “What makes you think that and when did this change? When it was named "fresh choices" and the food came in boxes and bags, it was a nightmarish mess of garbage and waste. However, when they altered the operation to Contemporary Dining, they started using the serving trays. They are meant to be reused many times and are treated just like the old china plates....meaning they are run through the dishwasher at FDA approved temperatures for sanitizing. Trains without dishwashers are still supposed to collect the trays and return them to the next crew base, where they can be cleaned and reused.”

RESPONSE: Not sure I understand the lengthly response. But I did observe that all components of what is served goes directly to trash, including the plastic serving trays. I would be interested in knowing what others on this forum have observed. Finally, all is put in large trash bags and dropped off at designated points. I have talked with several administrative Amtrak officials who indicated they just go to landfill. Furthermore, it is hard to find more specific information regarding these food wastes and plastics on Amtrak’s website. Here, on page 25 “Amtrak-Sustainability-Report” details industrial waste but no mention of the tremendous food service waste. 


Below is an interesting review by “Railway Age”

Garbage Served, Garbage Generated - Railway Age


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 6, 2020)

Garbage Served, Garbage Generated - Railway Age


In 1837, Hans Christian Anderson published a modernized and revised version of an ancient fable, under the title, “The Emperor’s New Clothes.” In it, the vain and foolish Emperor is taken in by charlatan weavers who promise him a glorious new wardrobe, magically invisible only to stupid and...




www.railwayage.com


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## Seaboard92 (Jul 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> How far away are the existing commissaries that supply Amtrak trains?



Now that I wouldn't know actually because I've never been involved with anything outside of the commissary in the various yards. In particular the one in DC. And even then I've only gone to the door to request ice. The DC one in Union Station is over next to where the Marco Polo used to be parked before Anderson ran it out of town on a rail. 




joelkfla said:


> Why would they need to use a special truck? Wouldn't any refrigerated truck do? There's no need for the scissor lifts.



I'll answer your question with a question. Why would a company that specializes in the airline industry moving over to Amtrak and rail operations want to have a specialized truck for a small customer? For such a small customer it wouldn't make sense to have a small subset of your fleet for a small customer's use. If it were me I would use the same truck they use at the airport because then in the event of higher demand or a breakdown you could pull any other truck to replace them. In my example in Chicago Amtrak only has eight long distance trains needing servicing, and if you add the corridors an additional 14? departures a day. Compared to the hundreds of aircrafts that they are servicing on a daily basis. There is something to be said in having a standardized fleet.


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## OBS (Jul 6, 2020)

Seaboard92 said:


> ThirdRail can correct me if I am wrong on this. But I don't think it is possible to use Gate Gourmet or other airline vendors strictly because of the distance from the airports to the various rail yards.
> 
> For instance lets look at Chicago which services 8 long distance trains with "Full Service".
> 
> ...


You are overthinking the whole concept. All they have to do is make one trip to the commissary during the early morning hours to drop off the order for all LD trains for that day. The commissary then keeps everything under refrig. until the proper quantity is issued to each train along with the rest of their supplies......no big deal.
ETA- The same method is used at NYP, WAS, and BOS for all the Acela food catering.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 6, 2020)

OBS said:


> You are overthinking the whole concept. All they have to do is make one trip to the commissary during the early morning hours to drop off the order for all LD trains for that day. The commissary then keeps everything under refrig. until the proper quantity is issued to each train along with the rest of their supplies......no big deal.
> ETA- The same method is used at NYP, WAS, and BOS for all the Acela food catering.


Also consider the VOLUME of service would be a catalyst to create a production center with abundant adjacent space that is not being used. 

But the larger question is... just who were the previous contracted food services? Hmmm... it appears that Amtrak administrativia management problems are dysfunctional. Above and beyond all that is being discussed... the germane
problem lies within management. 

PLEASE! READ WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING RE AMTRAK MANAGEMENT:





__





Is Amtrak Management Incompetent? – RailPAC: Rail Passenger Association of CA & NV







www.railpac.org


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> just who were the previous contracted food services?



It was Aramark I thought? Did that change?


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> It was Aramark I thought? Did that change?


Aramark... big and bureaucratic food subcontractor. show me how Amtrak efficiency management intersects with Aramark quality and value going towards passenger service?????????


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 6, 2020)

Hey there all... how can we get Amtrak management to view this important feedback regarding legitimate concerns and be receptive to it's most diligent railroad travelers??? Is Amtrak aware and listening???


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Aramark... big and bureaucratic food subcontractor. show me how Amtrak efficiency management intersects with Aramark quality and value going towards passenger service?????????



Huh? What other national food companies can Amtrak choose from? Aramark, Sysco... who else?


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## MARC Rider (Jul 6, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> Every time I’ve seen somebody order a burger/hot dog/pizza/sandwich/etc... from the cafe, I’ve seen the OBS just slice the wrapper to vent it, and put the entire package in the convection oven. I’ve never saw them take it out and put it on a plate before heating it up! And then take it off the plate and put it back in the wrapper.
> 
> Even that Delta video shows the plastic trays of food coming out of the convection oven!


Oh, I've seen the cafe car attendant take the burger/hotdog/etc. out and nuke it separately from the bun, and even toast the bun in the other oven. I'v also seen them just nuke it all together, especially when things get busy. I think the pizza is designed to be nuked in the box.


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## lordsigma (Jul 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Huh? What other national food companies can Amtrak choose from? Aramark, Sysco... who else?


Aramark and Sysco are actually not exactly the same thing. Aramark's core business is as a food service outsourcing provider (for example outsourcing running your cafeteria, kitchen, or commissary instead of running it in-house - they also do outsourcing of facilities management.) While Sysco is mainly a food supplier (they sell the actual food and ingredients.) For example your college campus may contract dining services to Aramark who employ the cooking staff and run the cafeteria and Aramark may in turn use Sysco as a supplier for food products. Sodexo and Compass are competitor companies more in line with what Aramark does.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Aramark and Sysco have slightly different core businesses. Aramark's core business is as a food service provider (for example outsourcing running your cafeteria instead of running it in-house.) While Sysco is mainly a food supplier for restaurants, cafeterias, and other industrial kitchens. For example your college campus may contract dining services to Aramark and Aramark may in turn use Sysco as a supplier for food products. Sodexo is a company more in line with what Aramark does.



VIA uses Sysco... at least they did the last time I rode the Canadian. That’s why I thought of them. 

Ok.. so add Sodexo to the mix.. anyone else?


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## lordsigma (Jul 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> VIA uses Sysco... at least they did the last time I rode the Canadian. That’s why I thought of them.
> 
> Ok.. so add Sodexo to the mix.. anyone else?


Is Sysco who they buy food from or do they actually manage commissaries for them? They very well may have an outsourcing arm I am not aware of but I know they are primarily a supplier. On the flip side I don't think Aramark actually sells food supplies they just prepare meals. At least around here Sodexo and Compass are more in line with what Aramark does (though as I said Aramark also does facilities management outsourcing.)


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## lordsigma (Jul 6, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Ok.. so add Sodexo to the mix.. anyone else?


I'm sure there's some smaller outfits around.. but the big three are Aramark, Sodexo, and Compass. Any one of them can basically do whatever you want them to. They can purchase stuff from any supplier you want and as you've pointed out make any level quality of meals - it's all what you're willing to pay.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 6, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Is Sysco who they buy food from or do they actually manage commissaries for them? They very well may have an outsourcing arm I am not aware of but I know they are primarily a supplier. On the flip side I don't think Aramark actually sells food supplies they just prepare meals. At least around here Sodexo and Compass are more in line with what Aramark does (though as I said Aramark also does facilities management outsourcing.)



A sysco truck restocked the diner in Winnipeg. I’m not sure who has what contract. 

The point I was trying to make is Aramark isn’t the bad guy.. Amtrak needs a National supplier and whoever they choose can supply whatever quality of food Amtrak desires.


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2020)

Aramark will manage a program for somebody and provide product, when I worked at a group of hospitals, the dietary depts and cafeterias were staffed by hospital employees, but the food service management and supply was Aramark. Clinical dieticians were still hospital folks. I believe Sysco may have actually delivered some of the food and supplies to the facilities for Aramark, but that's a long time ago, and I don't remember 100%


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## lordsigma (Jul 6, 2020)

PVD said:


> Aramark will manage a program for somebody and provide product, when I worked at a group of hospitals, the dietary depts and cafeterias were staffed by hospital employees, but the food service management and supply was Aramark. Clinical dieticians were still hospital folks. I believe Sysco may have actually delivered some of the food and supplies to the facilities for Aramark, but that's a long time ago, and I don't remember 100%


Yep management and outsourcing is their game - we used to have Sodexo at my college campus. Sometimes those guys will run the program for you using in house labor, and sometimes they do it all in our case all our food service staff was Sodexo employees. We gave them the boot a couple years ago and went totally in house. Sodexo used Sysco as their main supplier - our in house department now uses Performance for a lot of their stuff (which is a competitor to Sysco) but they also use some local vendors as well. Sorry for taking this a bit off topic!


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 6, 2020)

lordsigma said:


> Yep management and outsourcing is their game - we used to have Sodexo at my college campus. Sometimes those guys will run the program for you using in house labor, and sometimes they do it all in our case all our food service staff was Sodexo employees. We gave them the boot a couple years ago and went totally in house. Sodexo used Sysco as their main supplier - our in house department now uses Performance for a lot of their stuff (which is a competitor to Sysco) but they also use some local vendors as well. Sorry for taking this a bit off topic!


My employer, the University of Texas, did the exact same thing.


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## PVD (Jul 6, 2020)

When I was coaching Empire State Games Ice Hockey, I remember we were dormed and fed at a different University than most of the other teams and athletes because of the rink location. Sodexo was trying to make a name for themselves in college food service (they had merged with Marriott Food Service to become a major presence in the US and were gradually taking over and phasing out the Marriott name) our athletes and coaches has great food, the majority of the teams at the main university hosting about 80% had very limited institutional offerings. Not a lot of meal plan and dorm action at most schools over the summer, but those Sodexo folks really went all out for us. Games ran late one day and we returned after the contracted hours, the dining hall manager said "don't worry, I'll ask some staff to stay and make sure we get it right" Most summers, the schools we were at would have thrown some slop on a table and gone home.


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## lordsigma (Jul 6, 2020)

PVD said:


> (they had merged with Marriott Food Service to become a major presence in the US and were gradually taking over and phasing out the Marriott name)


Yep I believe when they were first brought in to replace in house staff at my school it was Marriott.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Huh? What other national food companies can Amtrak choose from? Aramark, Sysco... who else?


Gate Gourmet of course!


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 7, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Gate Gourmet of course!



Why them? They would be delivering the exact same quality of food. Amtrak can order anything they want from their current vendor.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> Why them? They would be delivering the exact same quality of food. Amtrak can order anything they want from their current vendor.


Gate gourmet offers a high quality of catering. But you do have a point. Management is attempting to put as little as possible into catering to maximize profits. I wonder what Amtrak actually pays for one of those little tiny tasteless flex meals that are composed of extenders and cheap ingredients? The point to be made is that the customer is being shorted.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 7, 2020)

Where I live Gate Gourmet’s kitchen is about fifteen minutes away from the station at typical calling times, but I don’t think it needs to be a national service or that Gate Gourmet would necessarily want Amtrak’s business. In fact it’s probably better for the passengers if it’s a local option like they used to have on the Portland Builder. There are other kitchens within five minutes of the station that could deliver whatever you want but most caterers probably won’t chase a sloppy night owl schedule. Amtrak could resolve that issue by renting refrigerators at the station and taking deliveries at a dependable hour. I think it’s really unlikely they’d go this route but probably doable with enough motivation and the right management.


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## tricia (Jul 7, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> ....
> 
> PLEASE! READ WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING RE AMTRAK MANAGEMENT:
> 
> ...



This article is five years old.


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## railiner (Jul 7, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Where I live Gate Gourmet’s kitchen is about fifteen minutes away from the station at typical calling times, but I don’t think it needs to be a national service or that Gate Gourmet would necessarily want Amtrak’s business. In fact it’s probably better for the passengers if it’s a local option like they used to have on the Portland Builder. There are other kitchens within five minutes of the station that could deliver whatever you want but most caterers probably won’t chase a sloppy night owl schedule. Amtrak could resolve that issue by renting refrigerators at the station and taking deliveries at a dependable hour. I think it’s really unlikely they’d go this route but probably doable with enough motivation and the right management.


During the 80's, when I worked at the Denver station, Amtrak established a "mini-commissary" there, and we did just that....installed FDA approved food service refigerator, ice maker, food storage racks, sinks, etc...to restock certain items on the CZ, Pioneer, and Desert Wind. The vendor's would deliver at the same time each day, regardless of when the trains departed...


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

tricia said:


> This article is five years old.


The Wall Street Journal printed this last year... "Onetime Delta CEO Richard Anderson has nearly eliminated the railroad’s operating losses, but some train fanatics are fuming about the changes." Although to be fair - Covid has put a damper on all travel... but does anyone think Amtrak management has gotten better... ?


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## the_traveler (Jul 7, 2020)

Yeah, he’s right. He did eliminate the operating losses.

Cutting trains, cutting food, cutting amenities, etc... etc...


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> Yeah, he’s right. He did eliminate the operating losses.
> 
> Cutting trains, cutting food, cutting amenities, etc... etc...


The government expects passenger trains... so incredibly environmentally friendly... to be totally self supporting; while it loads the funding on highways that bring exhaust fumes from the cars... and the airlines with funding for airports. Where's the logic in that... and where's the EPA???


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## Skyline (Jul 7, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Same thing for freshly cooked gourmet food at fine restaurants.


Not all restaurants. There is a niche for restaurants that offer healthy, safe menus. Some are "gourmet," however that might be defined (it varies!). They proudly promote health and these days, safety -- and have been rewarded by reviewers and the public. 

A Google search for "Healthy gourmet restaurants in (locale)" or even a search of TripAdvisor will reveal some of these. Not all are perfect, but they are leaning in the correct direction. Supporting restaurants that have its customers' health and safety in mind may cost more in some but not all cases, but is worth it if you can afford it.


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## joelkfla (Jul 7, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Where's the logic in that... and where's the EPA???


The EPA, as we knew it, doesn't exist in the current administration.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> The EPA, as we knew it, doesn't exist in the current administration.


Yup!


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## MARC Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

Here's a food service alternative from the "golden age" (or at least 1954), The Gull, a joint service by 4 railroads connecting Boston and Halifax.






The Gull - July, 1954 - Streamliner Schedules


July 1954 timetable for the Gull passenger train at Streamliner Schedules.



www.streamlinerschedules.com





The train leaves Boston about 10 PM, Halifax (through cars, really) at 8:15 AM. Total trip time is 27-28 hours. No food service on-board between Boston and Moncton. (Canadian National had a dining car between Moncton and Halifax, so you can get dinner on the northbound ride and breakfast on the southbound ride.) 

All other food service is at station stops:

Portland on the southbound only for breakfast (a 15 minute scheduled stop)
Vanceboro, ME on the southbound only (a 20 minute scheduled stop)
McAdam, NB both northbound and southbound. The schedule says a 30 minute meal stop. Northbound it's breakfast at 10 AM, southbound it's a rather late supper at 10:30 PM. i would personally pack something to tide me over.
St. John NB, southbound only 5:45 - 8:20 PM, this looks like it;s a bit better for dinner.
Moncton, NB southbound only 1 hour stop 1:55 -2:55 PM (Though one could still get lunch in the diner from Halifax)
Sackville, NB, southbound only at 12:49 PM (doesn't say how long the stop is, maybe it's just food available for people who are boarding)
Truro, NS, southbound only, 15 minute stop at 9:50 AM.
Halifax, NS also had meal service available, for those who wish to buy something in the station.

Applying this to Amtrak, all food service (except the potentially profitable booze-serving cafe cars) could be eliminated.

Food stops for the eastern long-distance trains could be made the the following locations:
Capitol Limited: WB Martinsburg, Elkhart; EB Cumberland. (Passengers would buy dinner in Chicago and bring it aboard)
Lake Shore Limited- WB Albany, Elkhart; EB Buffalo, Albany
Silver Star SB - Washington, Jacksonville, Orlando; NB Orlando, Cary, Washington
Silver Meteor - SB Jacksonville, Orlando; NB Orlando, Jacksonville, Washington
Crescent - SB - Washington, Atlanta; NB Atlanta, Charlottesville
Cardinal -- WB Culpepper, White Sulfur Springs, Lafayette; EB - Charleston, White Sulfur Springs/Clifton Forge, Washington

Food service outlets at the station stops would be independently owned and operated. Their business model would include other markets besides serving the train passengers, including restaurant and catering, etc. Passengers could order ahead online, and thus just debord to pick up their food, thus minimizing wait times and delays. Amtrak could allow more than one food service outlet at a station, thus fostering competition, variety and improved quality of the food. Local people could come dine at the station in a more conventional way, and be entertained by the trains arriving and passing through.

All food service costs (except the profitable booze-serving cafe cars) would be off-loaded from Amtrak's books, yet the relatively small number of people traveling through meal times can get fed. And we could stop complaining about how Amtrak can't serve good food, and start complaining about how these food stop eateries can't provide good food.


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## MARC Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

PVD said:


> When I was coaching Empire State Games Ice Hockey, I remember we were dormed and fed at a different University than most of the other teams and athletes because of the rink location. Sodexo was trying to make a name for themselves in college food service (they had merged with Marriott Food Service to become a major presence in the US and were gradually taking over and phasing out the Marriott name) our athletes and coaches has great food, the majority of the teams at the main university hosting about 80% had very limited institutional offerings. Not a lot of meal plan and dorm action at most schools over the summer, but those Sodexo folks really went all out for us. Games ran late one day and we returned after the contracted hours, the dining hall manager said "don't worry, I'll ask some staff to stay and make sure we get it right" Most summers, the schools we were at would have thrown some slop on a table and gone home.


Sodexo catered the college my daughter attended. I think they had the worst food of all of the colleges she applied to. Unfortunately for her palate, that college had the best academics for her, so that's where she went. Spent 4 years complaining about the food, and when we visited and sampled it, we had to agree. She managed to get along after she discovered a Sheetz and a fancy coffee place near campus. She also had a hotplate and a mini-refrigerator in her dorm room. To be fair, Sodexo put on a reception for the graduating seniors and parents that had pretty decent finger food.

I believe these catering companies can serve up food at a wide range of quality levels, but you get what you pay for. It's possible that the administration at my daughter's college picked the low-cost option. 

The college I attended (class of 1976) was catered by ARA services (don't know who owns them now), and the food was pretty good, but I lived off-campus for about half of my time there and thus did my own cooking.


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## railiner (Jul 7, 2020)

Yeah....I could see it now...arrive on the Cardinal at White Sulphur Springs, and the courtesy limo whisks me over to the Greenbrier for a gourmet five course meal... https://www.greenbrier.com/Greenbri...nts/FB-20-MDR-Dinner_Menu-Summer-Fall2020.pdf

What's that you say? The train? Oh, they'll wait for me....for sure!


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## PVD (Jul 7, 2020)

That's sort of the point, it is less a function of which company is providing the service as it is for an organization to contract for a decent level of service and see to it that the contractor complies. Pretty sure ARA is the core predecessor of ARAMARK.


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## the_traveler (Jul 7, 2020)

joelkfla said:


> The EPA, as we knew it, doesn't exist in the current administration.


Neither does the CDC. They may issue “recommendations”, but the Administration says “Do as they say, or do as I say.”


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 7, 2020)

I had Aramark at work for several years and agree that part of the issue is how much the client is willing to pay, but another important component is how the contract is worded and what level of expectation is set. When first outsourced they put on a big spread with fresh snacks and cookies that honestly tasted really good. It was a big improvement over the previous setup and most folks seemed to appreciate it. The food wasn't free but it was dirt cheap relative to a typical salary, you could make special requests without paying extra and the staff were friendly and accommodating. Nobody ever snapped, shouted, or gave you a stink eye. If Amtrak was anything like that experience I honestly would have nothing to complain about.


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## PVD (Jul 7, 2020)

I was on 2 separate projects where Aramark handled food service, but 2 separate divisions. The second one was employee food service for a very large corporate hq complex, they had a very large subsidized operation for a few thousand employees, and a special dining room for the most senior executives. My group had a dispensation to use their facilities although we were outside service contract employees (6 on full-time telecom service) albeit full time. I echo your sentiments completely. Once a month they brought in a "guest chef" to do a demo of a style of cooking or a new product...(the only one I remember is Paul Wenner, of Gardenburger fame). Before I was there, I spent 11 years (same contractor) running telecom services for a large healthcare and hospital group, Aramark was the food service management. I used to see trailer loads of top shelf food brought in, and I always wondered if there was a magic room where a team of scientists ran experiments on how to remove all flavor from food.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

railiner said:


> Yeah....I could see it now...arrive on the Cardinal at White Sulphur Springs, and the courtesy limo whisks me over to the Greenbrier for a gourmet five course meal... https://www.greenbrier.com/Greenbri...nts/FB-20-MDR-Dinner_Menu-Summer-Fall2020.pdf
> 
> What's that you say? The train? Oh, they'll wait for me....for sure!


Don't laugh! That menu looks like the fare they used to serve on the 20th Century Limited!


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 7, 2020)

the_traveler said:


> Neither does the CDC. They may issue “recommendations”, but the Administration says “Do as they say, or do as I say.”


Or... they do as he says!


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## Qapla (Jul 7, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Silver Star SB - Washington, Jacksonville, Orlando; NB Orlando, Cary, Washington
> Silver Meteor - SB Jacksonville, Orlando; NB Orlando, Jacksonville, Washington



I'm not sure where they could do this in Jacksonville. There are not any food service outlets near the Jacksonville station. There is not any place available for building anything that such food service outlets could use, there is no room to put anything inside the station (the building is not that big) and there is nowhere to watch the trains


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## MARC Rider (Jul 9, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> The deterioration of food service on Amtrak has brought much discussion regarding disappointment. However other more serious issues have surfaced regarding food safety and health; as well as recycling of food product waste. Here is a repost from earlier today. How do others on this forum feel about this???
> 
> While the 'Flex Dining' food product itself may be edible for occasional intake in a critical situation, there are three reasons why it is not recommended for human consumption. The first two involve health risk, the last is environmental. I hope Amtrak management is watching our forum and will rethink its responsibilities to both safety and the environment.
> 
> ...


Look, I know the flex dining food is not of good quality, but this attempt to demonize it is a little off the wall.

1) PET_ may_ be a _pontential_ toxic problem. Think about that every time you drink a Coke from a plastic bottle. Also, it's apparently very common in synthetic fibers, so you might have it in intimate contact with your skin for hours on end every day. The occasional Flex meal might not really make much of a difference to your health. I couldn't find in a quick search exactly how much toxic leachate from PET you would have to consume in order to develop medical problems, but I suspect that even if you were a regular passenger on Amtrak eating the stuff, it probably won't affect you. Well, maybe if you did nothing but take LD train rides in sleeper 365 days a year for 20 years or something, it might.

2) Sodium at unhealthy level. That's probably true for everything served by the food service industry, and probably a lot of stuff that people cook themselves. Traditional Amtrak dining was probably no better in this regard than the Flex meals.

3) Food and container waste is not recycled or reused. The same was true for traditional Amtrak dining, and is more or less true in my own personal kitchen. (I mean, I recycle some, but not the garbage, and not the takeout containers.)

Flex dining could be a perfectly good way for Amtrak to provide low-cost (to them) premium service. Premium service (i.e., the sleepers) is of value to Amtrak only in that it cross-subsidizes the coach service. This provides the relatively short-distance trips that make up most of the passenger load of even the long distance trains and are the basis of the utility of the trains and the justification for taxpayer support of the trains. But Amtrak can't get the desired cross-subsidy if the cost of providing food service is too high. This, it's perfectly reasonable for them to try to provide food service at as low a cost to Amtrak as possible. After all, Amtrak's mission is to provide passenger rail service, not provide a gourmet dining experience.

I agree the the current flex dining food is not of adequate quality. There is a danger that the lousy food will result in reduced revenues from premium service. They're also leaving money on the table by not making the meals available to the coach passengers. It's probably possible to make flex dining meals more palatable than the current ones. It's probably impossible for them to be able to accommodate everybody's special diets (but I was impressed at Penny's account of how they accommodated her needs.) Nonetheless, there is a definite tradeoff between whether food is palatable or healthy. For the relatively low percentage of the meals I eat on passenger trains, I'd prefer palatable.

What we should be demanding of Amtrak is not that they restore some sort of fantasyland revival of the golden age of railroading for the rich passengers, but that (1) they need to provide honest accounting of how much food service really costs, and (2) better quality and more menu variety of the meals being served. We should be demanding of Congress that they repeal the "Mica amendment," thus letting Amtrak not worry about whether their meal service is a strict profit or loss center. But for goodness sake , some the pictures of the "good old days," or menus from fancy restaurants being displayed as some sort of aspirational goal for Amtrak food service is nonsense. Those days are long gone and never coming back.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 9, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Traditional Amtrak dining was probably no better in this regard than the Flex meals.



Traditional Amtrak dining had options that you could choose that were much healthier. It varied from menu to menu, but the entree side salads with fruit were quite good and healthy... baked potatoes, steamed veggies, etc.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 9, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> Look, I know the flex dining food is not of good quality, but this attempt to demonize it is a little off the wall.
> 
> 1) PET_ may_ be a _pontential_ toxic problem. Think about that every time you drink a Coke from a plastic bottle. Also, it's apparently very common in synthetic fibers, so you might have it in intimate contact with your skin for hours on end every day. The occasional Flex meal might not really make much of a difference to your health. I couldn't find in a quick search exactly how much toxic leachate from PET you would have to consume in order to develop medical problems, but I suspect that even if you were a regular passenger on Amtrak eating the stuff, it probably won't affect you. Well, maybe if you did nothing but take LD train rides in sleeper 365 days a year for 20 years or something, it might.
> 
> ...



By analyzing all points of view it makes us all stronger in the quality of our conversations. You said many things I totally agree with… and some in which my point of view varies.

1] The issue with the plastic containers is the heating. Heating causes release of gasses and materials that have been proven to be extremely toxic… this is well documented by the American Medical Association and other health watch groups. Heating the meals in plastic must be stopped to protect the public from carcinogenic danger. We must stop heating food in Polyethylene Terephthalate plates.

2] Reusable ceramics would eliminate much waste. Did you know that the plastics crisis is so severe that plastics are found inside of fish caught… even fruits and vegetables for human consumption? Plastics in the environment are carcinogenic and dangerous… the environmental crisis is very real. We all must focus on the importance of 'Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle.'

3] Extreme amounts of sodium may not be harmful on an occasional basis, but three meals a day with such high amounts are… especially dangerous for those with diabetes and high blood pressure. The same can be said for sugar and fat content. As others on the forum have stated, food service companies will produce the meals as per the instructions of the purchaser. Institutions such as colleges and entertainment venues that choose to provide a higher quality of food take into consideration healthier ingredients.

I did agree with much of what you said in your last paragraph, but nostalgic pictures and memories that inspire do not deserve such a heavy hand. They are part of the American heritage are not presented as an out of reach aspiration for Amtrak… but as point of reference. Many of us on this forum are not not ‘rich passengers’ as you refer to… we’re just everyday folks who enjoy the thrill of rail travel… including in first class.

Let us all be open minded and look for the positives in our peers as we present ideas to support passenger rail travel.


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## Exvalley (Jul 9, 2020)

There is a LOT of valid criticism of Flexible Dining, Hyperbolic criticism runs the risk of being counterproductive. The dioxins that you need to worry about don’t exist in food grade plastic. Even if they did you would need to heat the plastic up to 700 degrees for their release. 
Source: Mixing Plastic and Food: An Urban Legend?

Our plastics are not dumped in the ocean. They are dumped in lined landfills. The plastic in the ocean is generally from Southeast Asia.
Source: Tackling Southeast Asia's plastic waste crisis

The nutritional concerns are quite valid. So is the quality, or rather, lack thereof.

Stick to winning arguments.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 9, 2020)

Exvalley said:


> There is a LOT of valid criticism of Flexible Dining, Hyperbolic criticism runs the risk of being counterproductive. The dioxins that you need to worry about don’t exist in food grade plastic. Even if they did you would need to heat the plastic up to 700 degrees for their release.
> Source: Mixing Plastic and Food: An Urban Legend?
> 
> Our plastics are not dumped in the ocean. They are dumped in lined landfills. The plastic in the ocean is generally from Southeast Asia.
> ...



You say hyperbolic criticism runs the risk of being counterproductive. Show me more. Why are these not justifiable arguments and tell me why this is Hyperbolic criticism? Hyperbolic criticism means exaggerated. Please explain how these concerning and troubling points are exaggerated and don't address concern for safety and well being of Amtrak travelers... What is exaggerated about these concerns? 

1] The issue with the plastic containers is the heating. Heating causes release of gasses and materials that have been proven to be extremely toxic… this is well documented by the American Medical Association and other health watch groups. Heating the meals in plastic must be stopped to protect the public from carcinogenic danger. We must stop heating food in Polyethylene Terephthalate plates.

2] Reusable ceramics would eliminate much waste. Did you know that the plastics crisis is so severe that plastics are found inside of fish caught… even fruits and vegetables for human consumption? Plastics in the environment are carcinogenic and dangerous… the environmental crisis is very real. We all must focus on the importance of 'Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle.'

3] Extreme amounts of sodium may not be harmful on an occasional basis, but three meals a day with such high amounts are… especially dangerous for those with diabetes and high blood pressure. The same can be said for sugar and fat content. As others on the forum have stated, food service companies will produce the meals as per the instructions of the purchaser. Institutions such as colleges and entertainment venues that choose to provide a higher quality of food take into consideration healthier ingredients.

Finally, explain and justify your solution to the food service problem.


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## Exvalley (Jul 9, 2020)

Rather than reading the scientific evidence in the articles I linked to, you just hit “copy-paste.”

No point in discussing this further if you won’t take the time to listen. We want the same result but clearly have different opinions on how to get there. All the best.


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 9, 2020)

Exvalley said:


> Rather than reading the scientific evidence in the articles I linked to, you just hit “copy-paste.”
> 
> No point in discussing this further if you won’t take the time to listen. We want the same result but clearly have different opinions on how to get there. All the best.



I am listening... and that is why I took so much time and effort to detail my request for you point of view. Show me the scientific evidence you are talking about which disputes troubling issues... perhaps we all can learn something we don't realize... and if indeed eating food from a carcinogenic plastic container when heated is safe... and eating all that sodium on a 3 or four night trip across the country is not harmful, and if there is no actual waste or landfill concern, then so many people, including myself will breathe a sigh of relief. We are all taking the time to listen.

Please be direct and be real in your assertions. Document with reliable empirical studies the scientific evidence which disputes these concerns which you are saying are just 'copy pasted.'

a] the heating of Polyethylene Terephthalate that brings a danger of toxic carcinogens
b] this controversial issue of Amtrak discarding plastics into the environment without proper recycling protocols when the environment is in an elevated crisis
c] the profound damaging effects of cheaply produced meals containing unhealthy amounts of sodium, sugar, and fat eaten three times a day for the duration of a transcontinental trip... when it is possible to contract the food supplier for healthier meals. So, these are the concerns repeated. What is the solution?

1] The issue with the plastic containers is the heating. Heating causes release of gasses and materials that have been proven to be extremely toxic… this is well documented by the American Medical Association and other health watch groups. Heating the meals in plastic must be stopped to protect the public from carcinogenic danger. We must stop heating food in Polyethylene Terephthalate plates.

2] Reusable ceramics would eliminate much waste. Did you know that the plastics crisis is so severe that plastics are found inside of fish caught… even fruits and vegetables for human consumption? Plastics in the environment are carcinogenic and dangerous… the environmental crisis is very real. We all must focus on the importance of 'Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle.'

3] Extreme amounts of sodium may not be harmful on an occasional basis, but three meals a day with such high amounts are… especially dangerous for those with diabetes and high blood pressure. The same can be said for sugar and fat content. As others on the forum have stated, food service companies will produce the meals as per the instructions of the purchaser. Institutions such as colleges and entertainment venues that choose to provide a higher quality of food take into consideration healthier ingredients.

With care and concern for our planet, our country, and our passenger rail system.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 10, 2020)

MARC Rider said:


> What we should be demanding of Amtrak is not that they restore some sort of fantasyland revival of the golden age of railroading for the rich passengers,



I'm not asking for fantasyland I'm wanting this -- all photos I took within the last 5 years -


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 10, 2020)

I'm still interested in knowing what makes this problem unique to the flexible dining program?

What makes this different from the Acela meal program and how is it different from the waste generated from items heated up in the cafe cars, prepared in the full-service dining cars, or from the items brought on board the trains without food service?

What makes this different from previous programs? Crescent-Zephyr mentioned the availability of salads, freshly baked potatoes, and the like but failed to mention how much waste these items generated while it was transported, stored, delivered, or when it wasn't consumed. This doesn't even include what was condemned in commissaries before it hit the trains or after it hit the trains and couldn't be reused. This not only increases waste, but it also increases loss...something that is supposed to END by a yet to be rescinded congressional mandate.

Most of those "cooked" meals on the train are actually heated up in the kitchen. The current nutritional value information on the remaining food that isn't part of the flexible dining program isn't that great either. While you were sure to pick the highest sodium content item for your post in the other thread (the Red Wine Braised Beef), it leaves out the fact some of the items in the flexible dining program are lower in sodium content than some of the items still available on the Auto Train, which isn't a part of the flexible dining program. Nothing about the sodium content in the Garlic Herb Cod,  Mac and Cheese( which is listed and children's meal) or the Cubano bowl is particularly impressive, especially when you compare it to the Asian Noodle Bowl or the Creole Shrimp & Andouille.

Even the Acela used to serve Korean BBQ Glazed Salmon, which has a higher sodium content than the aforementioned Red Wine Braised Beef before giving up on hot foods.

It seems like three meals a day on any service not limited to the Kosher meal selection, in particular, may be unhealthful. They all generate waste but the difference but it is easier to see with flexible dining since passengers are basically bussing the tables themselves. Previously, the waste wasn't at the forefront, but it was very much present.

While you and others are pining for higher quality food, you still have ignored the yet to be rescinded congressional mandate that led to a lot of this. It was enacted in 2015. Let's refer to the relevant portion one more time(although you can read the entire reference here.

From:

*SEC. 11207. FOOD AND BEVERAGE REFORM.

(a) AMENDMENT.—Chapter 243 of title 49, United States Code,

is further amended by adding at the end the following new section:

‘‘§ 24321. Food and beverage reform

<SNIP>

‘‘§ 24321. Food and beverage reform

‘‘(a) PLAN.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment

of the Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, Amtrak

shall develop and begin implementing a plan to eliminate, within

5 years of such date of enactment, the operating loss associated

with providing food and beverage service on board Amtrak trains.


‘‘(d) NO FEDERAL FUNDING FOR OPERATING LOSSES.—Beginning

on the date that is 5 years after the date of enactment of the

Passenger Rail Reform and Investment Act of 2015, no Federal

funds may be used to cover any operating loss associated with

providing food and beverage service on a route operated by Amtrak

or a rail carrier that operates a route in lieu of Amtrak pursuant

to section 24711. *

It is 2020 and unless the language is changed (which is suggested in the new appropriation), the reality of the situation is more trains may follow the example of the Silver Star, which at one point, eliminated the dining car outright. You may also see cafe cars disappear as they have on most of the NEC trains, which (according to AmMath,) allegedly covered their costs.

How much people are willing to pay to preserve food is a personal matter but as I have stated, the problem (as described) is not specific to the Flexible Dining program. Sometimes, you just need a label, particularly when you don't like something.


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## me_little_me (Jul 10, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> *‘‘§ 24321. Food and beverage reform
> 
> ‘‘(a) PLAN.—Not later than 90 days after the date of enactment
> 
> ...



Actually that's pretty meaningless considering that it is up to Amtrak to decide what portion of the accommodation price is to be allocated to food and the cost of providing it. Amtrak also decides what portion of the accommodation is charged for the stations, crew, management, ticketing, use of the NEC, etc. which affects the portion of that price that can be allocated to food. If, in fact, the sleepers subsidize the coach prices, then a lower subsidy could mean more money allocated to sleeper service (including food). And if indeed, as some claim, LD trains are overcharged for their portion of non-direct costs, then that reduced subsidy can be made up by rightly charging LD trains.

I'm not saying all these "ifs" are true, but with Amtrak, a PUBLIC CORPORATION, hiding the costs and allocations from the OWNERS i.e. THE PUBLIC, one can only surmise that there is no way to tell if Amtrak is legitimately following the congressional mandate or is using it as an excuse to get rid of service it doesn't want and is violating its mandate to provide service to the public.

"Figures don't lie but liars can figure"

Citing the mandate to explain that garbage is what congress mandated does not hold water IMHO. Congress set a target. Amtrak can cook the books (if that is what they do) to claim they met that target any way they want.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 10, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> It seems like three meals a day on any service not limited to the Kosher meal selection, in particular, may be unhealthful.



With the previous menus I had healthy choices. 



Thirdrail7 said:


> the reality of the situation is more trains may follow the example of the Silver Star, which at one point, eliminated the dining car outright. You may also see cafe cars disappear as they have on most of the NEC trains, which (according to AmMath,) allegedly covered their costs.



I’d rather be able to choose from the normal cafe car menu than the current flex menu so that would be an improvement. 

Why would Cafe cars that are covering their costs be taken out of service?


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## Dakota 400 (Jul 10, 2020)

crescent-zephyr said:


> I’d rather be able to choose from the normal cafe car menu than the current flex menu so that would be an improvement.



Why not offer a sleeping car guest the choice between a flex menu item or some items(s) from the cafe car menu?


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 10, 2020)

Here's another idea for this discussion on the food dilemma... 

The former LD complete meal service was highly enjoyed by sleeper passengers... they paid for it. Many of us probably ate much more than we otherwise normally would. Then came along the controversial flex meals... monotonous, unhealthy, and highly disliked... especially when they were replacing those angus burgers and steak dinner for the same cost.

Why can't Amtrak just eliminate the sleeper service flex meals and go to an expanded cafe car service that would include more healthy options; and in doing so, bring down the cost of those sleeping accommodations? It would allow the passenger greater choice to order the amount and quality of food desired. The could also choose to bring along their own items to eat.

Bottom line for the passenger... lower fares and food options that could fit with personal choice.
Bottom line for Amtrak... lower food service expenses with the cafe car paying for itself through whatever pricing is necessary.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 10, 2020)

As much as I would like to see a return to the _Chef Inspired_ meals at this point I'd probably settle for a selection of fresh fruit and cheese with warm/toasted breads in the morning and some fresh coffee. Big entree-sized salads with lots of flavorful toppings would be nice for lunch. I realize some folks can make do with almost anything but for me the dinner meal really suffers from a lack of cook-to-order options. This new era of reheated pantry foods is really uninspired and a waste of calories in my view.


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## Exvalley (Jul 10, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Why can't Amtrak just eliminate the sleeper service flex meals and go to an expanded cafe car service that would include more healthy options; and in doing so, bring down the cost of those sleeping accommodations?


Be careful what you ask for if you ever want to see full dining service restored.


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## Chey (Jul 10, 2020)

I'll be okay with whatever they serve because I'm not that concerned with what I eat at home, a lot of takeout that I eat, because either they don't post their ingredients, or because I don't believe them. I don't have Covid-19. And Jesus, for those of you who believe, doesn't have it either.

Sorry if this offends many of you, but I believe I'll die when my time comes and not before. I don't think Amtrak's menu is substantially worse than what I'm eating now. But you woke, please feel free to tell me I'm bound for Hell because you know better than me and everyone else.

I think, in spite of my love for rail travel, that I don't belong here and I will cancel my membership to avoid angering anyone further. I just can't take anymore woke BS.

Goodbye and God bless (for those of you this doesn't offend, for those of you it does please, delete). Thank you and goodbye.

Love,
Chey


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## Bob Dylan (Jul 10, 2020)

Chey said:


> I'll be okay with whatever they serve because I'm not that concerned with what I eat at home, a lot of takeout that I eat, because either they don't post their ingredients, or because I don't believe them. I don't have Covid-19. And Jesus, for those of you who believe, doesn't have it either.
> 
> Sorry if this offends many of you, but I believe I'll die when my time comes and not before. I don't think Amtrak's menu is substantially worse than what I'm eating now. But you woke, please feel free to tell me I'm bound for Hell because you know better than me and everyone else.
> 
> ...


Dont quit, Forums are for different points of view, dont take internet posts personally!!

We all share a Love of Train Travel! I see this on other Rail Forums too, and I dont agree with most of what's posted but:"Everyone has their own tastes said the Old Maid as she kissed the Cow!"


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## Thirdrail7 (Jul 10, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Why can't Amtrak just eliminate the sleeper service flex meals and go to an expanded cafe car service that would include more healthy options; and in doing so, bring down the cost of those sleeping accommodations? It would allow the passenger greater choice to order the amount and quality of food desired. The could also choose to bring along their own items to eat.



Umm...like they did with the aforementioned Silver Star, which was nicknamed the Silver Starvation? Here is the thread that related to that experiment;

Silver Star has new Café menu and no diner







This "test" lasted until earlier this year. I firmly believe other trains would have followed sit of not for the passengers lobbying Amtrak and their representatives to take action. After numerous complaints about this, they returned to the diner-lite concept on a few more train before introducing Contemporary Dining.

At any rate, complaints kept this concept from taking off even though it was headed for a few more trains.


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## crescent-zephyr (Jul 10, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> At any rate, complaints kept this concept from taking off even though it was headed for a few more trains.



So that means our complaints do make a difference correct?


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 10, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Umm...like they did with the aforementioned Silver Star, which was nicknamed the Silver Starvation? Here is the thread that related to that experiment;
> 
> Silver Star has new Café menu and no diner
> 
> ...


if I can remember through my aging mind, there was little difference in the fare between meal on this train and meals included on the other. That's why it didn't gain traction... and where are we now??? So flex meals vs non vs the full dining service. Now we are we now hmmm... where??? Pay more for 'full dining service' and get flex meals??? Huh?


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## 20th Century Rider (Jul 10, 2020)

RichieRich said:


> Bet they were't "biodegradable" back then. The ones today "biodegrade" in my mouth after a few sips!


We were ahead of where we are now 'back in the day' when biodegradable was realized as important but greed and the quest for wealth has replaced more environmentally sound practices with cheep cheep that is bad for the earth but good for the wallet of those wanting to do anything at any expense to put money in that back pocket. Because plastics are cheeeeeper than recyclable chinaware, that's what Amtrak uses to cut costs. Oh my...


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## me_little_me (Jul 10, 2020)

20th Century Rider said:


> Why can't Amtrak just eliminate the sleeper service flex meals and go to an expanded cafe car service that would include more healthy options; and in doing so, bring down the cost of those sleeping accommodations? It would allow the passenger greater choice to order the amount and quality of food desired. The could also choose to bring along their own items to eat.


How much cheaper than the Meteor was the Star? Would that even exist if the passengers had no choice of traditional dining vs garbage and both had the same lower cost but "healthy and tasty" food? Would prices go down? NAH! They never go down.
And the way Amtrak runs cafes with so many items that run out or that don't get stocked, what would happen to sleeper passengers who tend to ride long distances if the "better" food was all scarped up by coach passengers? With food reserved for sleepers first (traditional) or only (garbage), there is more of an obligation since meals are promised and separate.
Amtrak has never even solved their basic cafe ood problems on LD trains such as running out or not loading items - both of which mean money left on the table - about as stupid as can be imagined when you are losing money.

Then of course, you might lose more of the sleeper passengers (and their subsidy to coach) and have even more of those passengers who don't want to fight the lines for food only to find out that what they want is sold out.

Given their history of (not) loading food, even for sleepers, I can't imagine how well they are going to be able to handle when they don't load the specific meal you pre-ordered 4 months earlier when you made your sleeper reservation.


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## bms (Jul 10, 2020)

Thirdrail7 said:


> Umm...like they did with the aforementioned Silver Star, which was nicknamed the Silver Starvation? Here is the thread that related to that experiment;
> 
> This "test" lasted until earlier this year. I firmly believe other trains would have followed sit of not for the passengers lobbying Amtrak and their representatives to take action. After numerous complaints about this, they returned to the diner-lite concept on a few more train before introducing Contemporary Dining.
> 
> At any rate, complaints kept this concept from taking off even though it was headed for a few more trains.



I believe the Silver Star went straight from traditional dining to nothing, which is a major downgrade. This time around, they've been smart enough to downgrade the food to a point where few people will miss it when it's removed.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 11, 2020)

Chey said:


> I don't have Covid-19. And Jesus, for those of you who believe, doesn't have it either. Sorry if this offends many of you, but I believe I'll die when my time comes and not before. I don't think Amtrak's menu is substantially worse than what I'm eating now. But you woke, please feel free to tell me I'm bound for Hell because you know better than me and everyone else.


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## me_little_me (Jul 11, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


>



Darn! I thought that was Anderson and Flynn telling people how good the "flex" menus are and how much better Amtrak will become with service cut back.

Of course, I watched it with the volume turned off so I couldn't be sure.


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## Barb Stout (Jul 12, 2020)

Devil's Advocate said:


>



Freaky.


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## 20th Century Rider (Aug 10, 2020)

Bad news on the food scene... Amtrak's flexible dining is extended through December 15, 2020... according to the website. There have been concerns that it will become permanent... perhaps it will. ☹


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## Mystic River Dragon (Aug 12, 2020)

Chey said:


> I'll be okay with whatever they serve because I'm not that concerned with what I eat at home, a lot of takeout that I eat, because either they don't post their ingredients, or because I don't believe them. I don't have Covid-19. And Jesus, for those of you who believe, doesn't have it either.
> 
> Sorry if this offends many of you, but I believe I'll die when my time comes and not before. I don't think Amtrak's menu is substantially worse than what I'm eating now. But you woke, please feel free to tell me I'm bound for Hell because you know better than me and everyone else.
> 
> ...



Chey,

I agree with our Bob Dylan above—please don’t leave. Just like everyone else on AU, you do belong here. We all have different views, and we do tend to get a bit intense about food especially for some reason. But we all have a love of trains, which brings us together. Having been to a couple of Gatherings, I can say firsthand that AU has some of the nicest people anyone could meet.

I have enjoyed your posts and hope you stay.

Sometimes I need a break and disappear for a while or just stick to the nontrain/nonfood threads (like the one with the gorgeous pictures of ferries), then come back when I’m ready.

Msybe consider doing something like that instead of leaving completely? I hope you will and that we will hear from you again.

—Patty


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## sprague.terplan (Jul 16, 2022)

Similar to other Amtrak riders, I recently went cross country by train and selected Amtrak as I thought it was the most environmentally benign travel option. After seeing the incredible volume of packaging waste generated with each meal and due to a lack of a single recycling receptacle for the many plastic water and juice bottles and aluminum cans, I question the carbon footprint of this mode of travel.

Amtrak has to do better for our planet.


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## rs9 (Jul 17, 2022)

sprague.terplan said:


> Similar to other Amtrak riders, I recently went cross country by train and selected Amtrak as I thought it was the most environmentally benign travel option. After seeing the incredible volume of packaging waste generated with each meal and due to a lack of a single recycling receptacle for the many plastic water and juice bottles and aluminum cans, I question the carbon footprint of this mode of travel.
> 
> Amtrak has to do better for our planet.


This is a legitimate concern, and personally I try to point this out to the cafe attendant every time I ride. In addition, I do not need 17 napkins with the single food item I purchase.

That said, fuel savings and emissions reductions with the new Siemens LD locomotives have a far greater environmental plus than the negatives of non recycling. Consider that quite a few of the passengers would be generating just as much trash and sadly not recycling if they were not traveling.


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## tricia (Jul 17, 2022)

sprague.terplan said:


> Similar to other Amtrak riders, I recently went cross country by train and selected Amtrak as I thought it was the most environmentally benign travel option. After seeing the incredible volume of packaging waste generated with each meal and due to a lack of a single recycling receptacle for the many plastic water and juice bottles and aluminum cans, I question the carbon footprint of this mode of travel.
> 
> Amtrak has to do better for our planet.


Thanks for posting, and for caring. Welcome to AU!


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## GAT (Jul 17, 2022)

Question: What happens to Amtrak dining trash once it leaves the train? Is it possible that it goes through recycling elsewhere before the dregs are sent to landfill? Maybe Amtrak finds that more cost-effective than setting up separate recycle bins in every car throughout the system.


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## toddinde (Jul 17, 2022)

sprague.terplan said:


> Similar to other Amtrak riders, I recently went cross country by train and selected Amtrak as I thought it was the most environmentally benign travel option. After seeing the incredible volume of packaging waste generated with each meal and due to a lack of a single recycling receptacle for the many plastic water and juice bottles and aluminum cans, I question the carbon footprint of this mode of travel.
> 
> Amtrak has to do better for our planet.


I’ve thought the same for years! It’s a missed opportunity. Amtrak could be the ethical choice and could market itself that way. Not to mention that fresh and tasty food with less packaging would be more enticing. I’m not sure when Americans lost the art of simple, fresh cooking. I’m not hung up on the opulent dining car. Simple, fresh food, cooked fresh, with little waste, would be better.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 17, 2022)

GAT said:


> Question: What happens to Amtrak dining trash once it leaves the train? Is it possible that it goes through recycling elsewhere before the dregs are sent to landfill? Maybe Amtrak finds that more cost-effective than setting up separate recycle bins in every car throughout the system.


Answer: In the US there is no practical mechanism for recycling most single use plastics and no reason to believe that Amtrak is hiding a vast recycling operation behind a charade of indifference.


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## zephyr17 (Jul 17, 2022)

GAT said:


> Question: What happens to Amtrak dining trash once it leaves the train? Is it possible that it goes through recycling elsewhere before the dregs are sent to landfill? Maybe Amtrak finds that more cost-effective than setting up separate recycle bins in every car throughout the system.


Landfilled. Which is unfortunate since the cups they use are actually compostable.


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## GAT (Jul 17, 2022)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Answer: In the US there is no practical mechanism for recycling most single use plastics and no reason to believe that Amtrak is hiding a vast recycling operation behind a charade of indifference.


I wasn't thinking necessarily an Amtrak operation. Aren't there commercial recycling operations at, at least, major cities where Amtrak routes terminate or pass through?

In an y event, Amtrak's Sustainability Report for 2019 reports on this. (Not too impressive a performance IMO). Look at Page 9.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/environmental1/Amtrak-Sustainability-Report-FY19.pdf


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## MARC Rider (Jul 17, 2022)

It should be noted that washing dishes and linens also has an environmental footprint, too. In fact everything we do has a negative impact on the environment. I tend to agree with the poster who says that the deployment of Tier IV diesel locomotives and rail electrification will do much more for the environment than reducing Amtrak's rather miniscule contribution to the total solid waste stream.

By the way, even those yummy traditional dining meals are for the most part precooked and come in lots of disposable wrappings that are discarded before the meal is plated. Even the few things that are cooked on the train are probably wrapped before being cooked. So traditional dining probably also generates a lot of waste, it's just that the customer doesn't see it.


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## rs9 (Jul 18, 2022)

One way to view this issue is through the lens of incrementalism.

For me, long distance train travel instead of flying, when feasible, is an incremental way to reduce my personal carbon emissions. I'm still creating emissions but I'm reducing those emissions. Is it perfect? No. But if everyone worked to reduce their emissions incrementally, imagine the progress that could be made. Though it's worth noting, global warming should not be viewed as a problem for individuals to solve.

Personally, I think some of the issues highlighted above are less Amtrak's problems to solve and more of society in general. We take the use of single-use plastics, like plastic silverware, for granted. When you order a beer from the cafe car on Amtrak, you are automatically offered a plastic cup if you don't want to drink out of the bottle or can. We need a sea change in how we think and operate on a daily basis in our lives - I would hope Amtrak can play a role but it's not on them to lead mass societal change.


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## sprague.terplan (Jul 18, 2022)

rs9 said:


> This is a legitimate concern, and personally I try to point this out to the cafe attendant every time I ride. In addition, I do not need 17 napkins with the single food item I purchase.
> 
> That said, fuel savings and emissions reductions with the new Siemens LD locomotives have a far greater environmental plus than the negatives of non recycling. Consider that quite a few of the passengers would be generating just as much trash and sadly not recycling if they were not traveling.


I appreciate the perspective and your reply!


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## Siegmund (Jul 18, 2022)

> Aren't there commercial recycling operations at, at least, major cities where Amtrak routes terminate or pass through?



That will vary by city... but for plastic, probably not.

In the places I spend the most time (all in the northwest), it's still possible to recycle metal and cardboard, though harder to find places to accept them than it was a few decades ago;
paper and glass recycling has scaled back; and plastic recycling has stopped entirely.

Plastic recycling happened primarily in China (kind of shocking that it was economical enough to squash all those empty bottles and ship them halfway around the world) and China stopped importing plastic in 2018. In most parts of the US, nobody has stepped up to fill the void.


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## McLeansvilleAppFan (Jul 18, 2022)

Siegmund said:


> That will vary by city... but for plastic, probably not.
> 
> In the places I spend the most time (all in the northwest), it's still possible to recycle metal and cardboard, though harder to find places to accept them than it was a few decades ago;
> paper and glass recycling has scaled back; and plastic recycling has stopped entirely.
> ...


I think the economics was such that an empty boat going back was bringing in zero revenue whereas a ship hauling a bit of recyclables would bring in something greater than zero in revenue. 


There are a few options for east coast plastic recycling based on what I have been told by folks that run the waste reduction in my city as I have them talk to my students in my earth/environmental class. The answer is to get rid of plastics which is easy to type and hard to do. A company up the road from where I live takes soda bottles and converts to textile for clothing. It is still plastic and still going to become microplastics. Glad it has a 2nd life but it is still going to be plastic pollution in a few years.

A shame we can't trust each other to not contaminate glass bottles so they can be washed and reused instead of broken down and reformed. The energy cost has got to be a lot higher for the later option. I know water is not is excess supply but we are really drowning in plastic. 
At some point, and it may be soon, we are going to have to come with grips that we as a human society, and especially those of us that use WAY more than our share of resources have to cut dramatically our consumption or energy, resources, and change in a drastic way our life style. Everyone reading this will not be alive to see the bad outcomes without drastic changes so hard to get people to change, and that includes me.

This went from a short explanation of west coast recycling to doom and gloom for all of us. Sorry.


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## Devil's Advocate (Jul 18, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> It should be noted that washing dishes and linens also has an environmental footprint, too.


It should also be noted that recycling water is easier and more practical than recycling plastic.



MARC Rider said:


> By the way, even those yummy traditional dining meals are for the most part precooked and come in lots of disposable wrappings that are discarded before the meal is plated. Even the few things that are cooked on the train are probably wrapped before being cooked. So traditional dining probably also generates a lot of waste, it's just that the customer doesn't see it.


The excessive use of single-use plastics is a systemwide problem that is not limited to a particular region or route. Today Amtrak is trashing more waste by volume than ever before. How do we know this? Because we can see the volume of trash being dumped at longer service stops with our own two eyes.


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