# C&O/CSX Peninsula Subdivision



## Anderson (Dec 2, 2011)

A couple of questions come to mind that I don't even know where to begin asking things/begin looking:

1) Which track was torn up when they went to single-track operations? From what it looks like, the track that is "missing" at Williamsburg (WBG) is the one on the north side, based on the pre-existing paving and the gravel on the ground behind the tracks when looking from the station.

2) The station platform cover is far enough back that, when compared with stations such as Deland, FL, Jacksonville, FL, etc., the trains stop a substantial distance from the cover. Seeing as there was at least one short siding that terminates next to the station, was there a third track there at one time that was paved over? There's certainly room for it between the brick platform and the tracks.

3) Observationally, NPN-WBG is an _exceedingly _fast run on 66 (23 miles in 22 minutes from one departure time to another)...it's notable for being over 60 MPH, and NPN-RVM is 70 miles in 70 minutes. That these runs are doable in that sort of time (and that this is doable in spite of the train having to run through a freight yard east of Richmond) suggests that the trains along that route are running close to 79 MPH much of the way (accounting for time to speed up leaving NPN, slowing down for WBG, and then time for the stop, the train would have to be going close to full speed most of the way along there...and I'd dare say the same about the rest of the section as well). The fact that the track is so flat and gently curving (the Virginia Peninsula exists around the line here and not the other way around) makes me wonder...when the PTC stuff goes into effect, how much benefit will we see down here?

4) Other than Lee Hall (now defunct), Newport News (albeit further downtown), and Williamsburg, what other stations existed on this line at one point? I think I recall reading about a stop at Lightfoot and excursion trains stopping at the Pottery in the 30s and 40s, but were there ever stops elsewhere along the line? The "happy location" of a bunch of small/former small towns along the line (Providence Forge, Lanexa, Norge, Toano, Grove, and once upon a time a couple of towns within Warwick County, now swallowed into Newport News) makes me suspect that there were at least a few more small stops, but I can't tell for sure.

5) Is there any plan to repave the crossing at Lee Hall? CSX recently did a repaving job at Harpersville Road, and the Lee Hall crossing/yard is a basket case and then some. Similarly, does CSX have any plans to get rid of the disused sidings there?

6) As an incidental question, is the line into Fort Eustis still used by the military at all? It's still got wood(!) filling in the crossing over Rt. 60 so that folks can drive over it.


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## Sky Pilot (Jan 4, 2012)

Anderson said:


> A couple of questions come to mind that I don't even know where to begin asking things/begin looking:
> 
> 1) Which track was torn up when they went to single-track operations? From what it looks like, the track that is "missing" at Williamsburg (WBG) is the one on the north side, based on the pre-existing paving and the gravel on the ground behind the tracks when looking from the station.
> 
> ...



Anderson -

Just found this post but some of what follows was triggered by research I did after seeing your reply to one of my posts in the "Airport Retrenching" thread when you mentioned the _James Whitcomb Riley_.

Re: Question #3, I would agree except my riding experience on #66 is we seldom hit the scheduled time at RVM, let alone RVR or ALX. It feels like we slow down somewhere in the swamps of the Chickahominy before Byrd Field and crawl from there through the Fulton Yard and then the ACCA yard after RVM. I've seen some PowerPoint slides that indicate that the Commonwealth would be paying for a bypass around both yards and if that comes to pass it would shave significant time off the run. I think those bypasses would provide more benefit that PTC in this subdivision. DRPT Powerpoint

Re: Question #4, I too wonder about many of the old stations, especially in Newport News. It appears that there used to be a stop in Morrison (I assume in the vicinity of the curent Harpersville Road crossing). The Lee Hall museum website also indicates that there were also stops at Oriana and Oyster Point between Morrison and Lee Hall. I have no idea where those stops would have been although I'm thinking the Oyster Point stop is probably where the City property near the overpass of Oyster Point Road and the CSX line is.

From said website (http://www.leehallde...tory/index.html):

"The depot is the only remaining station on the Lower Virginia Peninsula from the railroad's expansion into Warwick County. Five stations (Lee Hall, Oriana, Oyster Point, Morrison, and Newport News) once served the county. It is a symbol of Newport News' early development from the agrarian Warwick County into the modern City of Newport News and of the history of transportation."

I once found (onlne) an old C&O map/timetable (circa 1910?) that had stations listed from Old Point Comfort (Fort Monroe) to Charlottesville and beyond. For the life of me I can't find that today.

I'm also curious to know what stop is "Hampton Roads" from this 1967 timetable.

C&O GW Timetable

I think it's the current NPN site and from what I can tell, you used to be able to transfer from there to Phoebus/Fort Monroe. The current NPN station was built in 1981 per Wikipedia and the "old" Newport News station (presumably MM 0 in the timetable) was built circa 1940 according to the website of the restaurant that currently occupies or occupied the space at 2295 Harbor Road near 25th Street downtown. Train Station Restaurant (Newport News)

Four miles west would be somewhere near the current station (NPN) or thereabouts but it might have been a different stop. Curious to know what was on and around the current NPN site previously. The marker for "Lafayette Sqaure" implies a city square/park type setting to me but I don't see much evidence of that today.

Re: Question #6, the line from Lee Hall interchange to Fort Eustis was/is still active. A few years ago when I was mobillized to Fort Eustis, some cargo would go by rail from the loading docks on Fort Eustis to the interchange at Lee Hall and then via CSX to wherever (usually a port like Jacksonville FL). The main purpose of the rail line on Fort Eustis, though, was to train military railroad operators in terminal operations. The rail line basically runs down the median of Washington Boulevard then splits to do a loop around the golf course/airfield area of Mulberry Island.

Anyway, if you do find answers to your other questions, please post them.

Blue skies ..


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## Sky Pilot (Jan 4, 2012)

Following up on my own post .. still can't find that timetable map (but I'm still looking) however I did find this on wiki for stations in James City County. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grove,_Virginia

Grove Station on the new C&O RailroadNearby *Grove Station* was established by the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway (C&O) under the leadership of Collis P. Huntington. In 1881 the C&O's Peninsula Extension was built through the area from its previous eastern terminus in Richmond to reach the coal piers and the new city of Newport News at the southeastern tip of Warwick County. Although a number of local railroad stations were established along the route, the primary purpose of the railroad was to transport through-coal traffic. This traffic pattern has continued into the 21st century under C&O successor CSX Transportation.

Local stations were established in James City County along the new railroad at Diascund, Toano, Vaiden's Siding (Norge), Kelton (Lightfoot) Ewell, Williamsburg, and Grove. While by 2009, Grove Station was long gone, other former C&O railroad stations to the east at Lee Hall and to the west at Williamsburg were extant. The latter serves intercity passenger rail service of Amtrak. The former C&O station from Ewell also survives in an adaptive reuse. Further west, a historic C&O station built in 1908 for Norge has been preserved. It was relocated in 2006 to the site of the Croaker Branch of the Williamsburg Regional Library. Following historical research, the Norge Station was repainted in its original livery, featuring a bright orange as the primary color.[3]


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## Anderson (Jan 5, 2012)

Looking at the CSX report, it looks like the Oriana stop still exists as a mile marker of sorts along the line. I _think_ it's somewhere around Denbigh Blvd (there's Oriana Road, which breaks off from Denbigh Blvd and runs out into York County, and I believe that Oriana Rd is the older of the two and it simply got swallowed on its eastern end at one time).

As to "Lafayette Square", that area was in between Newport News and Hilton for a long time. From what I can tell, the name was just made up for the station...though it _does_ seem possible that something might have existed in conjunction with Huntington Park at one time, too (such were some of Huntington's land acquisitions...witness Lake Maury and the Mariner's Museum for the scale and scope).

Looking back, I suspect that "Oyster Point" a combination of an agricultural stop, picking stuff up from a group of Mennonite farmers in the region (They held onto their last land well into the 1990s; there's currently a Target-anchored mall on top of what was a dairy farm until about 15 years ago (in spite of being in the middle of a decent-sized city), but as I understand it they basically owned a couple of square miles of land in the region for a long time); and a stop for a military facility (the land of which is now Oyster Point Industrial Park).


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## Lee Oliver (Jul 17, 2012)

There was a station at the end of the line in Phoebus. In the 1950's there was one morning departure from Phoebus to Richmond, with a late afternoon return.


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## Anderson (Dec 13, 2012)

Well, I got an update on this yesterday, and found some amusing changes over the years (and at least this isn't a time-sensitive topic):

1) The second track was pulled out in 1975. The crane that was pulling the track actually knocked out a bridge in Williamsburg on Capitol Landing Road.

2) When the _Riley_ ran NPN-CVS, it took four more miles to go NPN-RVM than the present run (since it was still using the downtown station), but the NPN-WBG run was 32 minutes in 1974. This likely goes down to having to work their way through the yards downtown. Likewise, WBG-RVM then was 48 miles in 58 minutes, and the combination was 75 miles in 90 minutes. So it's good to see things having been sped up _somewhere_ in the system over the years. I'm not going to count the EB times since...well, when a train is known as the "Will-it-come", padding should be omnipresent.

3) As an annoying sidebar, the Riley did the 97 miles RVM-CVS in 110 minutes in 1974. I think the consensus on the board is that pulling that in three hours today would be nothing shy of a miracle given the mess that the eastern end of the BBRR is (though sticking in a track to connect the ex-RF&P with the BBRR might help that).


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## Mary Ruffin (Oct 9, 2013)

I would suggest searching the Virginia Department of Historic Resources files in Richmond. Preliminary research suggests some of these stations were documented in the 1970s prior to demolition


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## deanva (Mar 7, 2021)

The Oyster Point depot was on the west side of the track across from where the old trash incinerator was located, which is now part of Newport News City Public Operations center. I went to the church closest to the old depot now located on Mitchell Point Road and could see the depot from the church. There was a cow pasture there, now it is housing. I believe they moved it to the Bluebird Gap Farm in Hampton and is not recognizable now not sure of its condition.


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## railiner (Mar 7, 2021)

deanva said:


> The Oyster Point depot was on the west side of the track across from where the old trash incinerator was located, which is now part of Newport News City Public Operations center. I went to the church closest to the old depot now located on Mitchell Point Road and could see the depot from the church. There was a cow pasture there, now it is housing. I believe they moved it to the Bluebird Gap Farm in Hampton and is not recognizable now not sure of its condition.


Welcome to AU...
I presume you are aware that you are commenting on a thread from 2011 to 2013?


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