# FINE DINING ON AMTRAK



## ThayerATM (Feb 19, 2009)

In September we're going to be taking the Lake Shore Limited from Rochester NY (ROC) to Chicago, then takaing the Empire Builder from Chicago (CHI) to Seattle WA (SEA). After a couple of days in SEA we'll be getting on the Coast Starlight south to Emeryville (EMY). We'll overnight in EMY, then take the California Zephyr back to CHI, and then the LSL back to ROC. We will be riding in a bedroom all the way, so the meals will be included.

From what I've read on this forum, the dining car menu will stay pretty much the same throughout the trip. Not many "local foods," as on the CONO. How exciting is that?

We're already quite familiar with the dining car layout and menu on the LSL. What can we expect to be significantly different on any of the other three trains? Is it all about car layout? What's the big difference with "full service" dining that's said to be used on the Empire Builder, and dining on the California Zephyr? Dining on the Coast Starlight appears to be just a matter of "where" one chooses to eat.


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## RRrich (Feb 19, 2009)

I have had "fine dining" and I have dined on Amtrak (including the LSL but not the EB) - two different things. I suggest you ignore all "fine dining" ideas - go into the dining car - or what ever they call it, with the idea that you will get a pleasent, enjoyable meal.

It ain't "fine dining" but it ain't bad.


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## ThayerATM (Feb 19, 2009)

RRrich said:


> I have had "fine dining" and I have dined on Amtrak (including the LSL but not the EB) - two different things. I suggest you ignore all "fine dining" ideas - go into the dining car - or what ever they call it, with the idea that you will get a pleasent, enjoyable meal.
> It ain't "fine dining" but it ain't bad.


That was my sarcasm showing through.  I've been on the LSL enough to not expect "fine dining," but as you say, it's not bad, at all. I'm just wondering if there's any signifacant difference between "full service" dining, as touted about the Empire Builder, or if it's just a matter of car layout and tableware. I suspect it's all a matter of "spin."


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## wayman (Feb 19, 2009)

ThayerATM said:


> RRrich said:
> 
> 
> > I have had "fine dining" and I have dined on Amtrak (including the LSL but not the EB) - two different things. I suggest you ignore all "fine dining" ideas - go into the dining car - or what ever they call it, with the idea that you will get a pleasent, enjoyable meal.
> ...


There's a tremendous difference. The LSL no longer has a dining car with a kitchen, just a diner lite with a heating station; nothing is prepared on board, and there is only a single chef and a single server. The EB, CS, and CZ all have full dining cars with kitchens. The menu is totally different from the LSL's, in that it's the dining car menu instead of the diner lite menu. There's more variety, and more food preparation takes place on the train. On the CS and CZ, a chef works in the kitchen, a lead service attendant functions as a host and head waiter, and one or two servers wait and bus tables; on the EB, there is also a sous chef/dishwasher in the kitchen, enabling a bit more on-board cooking. On all three of these trains you will get to order entrees like steak cooked to order, fish filets, and game hens. On the EB there is china instead of plasticware since they have an extra hand in the kitchen. And on the CS, sleeping car passengers have access to both the dining car and the parlour car and can choose to take their meals in either. The parlour car has a slightly different unique menu.

Flat-iron steak dinner entree:





Scrambled eggs and hash browns breakfast (with Empire Builder china):





My Flickr set of Amtrak dining car and meal photos


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## the_traveler (Feb 19, 2009)

I like the EB, because they use *REAL* plates and *REAL* mugs - not the plastic stuff - and they cook more food onboard  (but it still the normal SDS menu  ). I like the CS for the meals in the PPC - just as a change in the menu instead of the same thing over and over and ...! But the PPC is a great place to hang out anyways.

And the wine tasting is free on the EB, but costs $5 on the CS!


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## PetalumaLoco (Feb 19, 2009)

Wayman, the food must be good, that's a "20,000 calories consumed" celebration, yes?


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## wayman (Feb 19, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Wayman, the food must be good, that's a "20,000 calories consumed" celebration, yes?


Well, I do like the food, it's true. But that was my 20,000 miles on Amtrak celebration 

... and that reminded me that it's been a while since I've updated my lifetime mileage spreadsheet. Looks like I just passed 30,000 on my way to Boston last Friday!


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## guestlsa (Feb 19, 2009)

wayman said:


> ThayerATM said:
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> > RRrich said:
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lsl now has 2 servers


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## AlanB (Feb 19, 2009)

guestlsa said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > ThayerATM said:
> ...


Actually every time I've taken the LSL in the past two years, it's had two SA's. My most recent trip was last October, and prior to that I was on it in July.


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## RailFanLNK (Feb 20, 2009)

My girlfriend and I and her two daughters were on the LSL summer of 2008. The menu had silver duct tape over 90% of the items that "used" (?) to be offered. I much preferred the selection on the SWC and CZ. The menu had so much duct tape on it, I thought Red Green might appear in the diner. 

I for one, can eat the same thing day in and day out. Daily I eat two Lean Pockets for lunch. Been eating them 5 days a week now for 2 years. So eating the same thing over and over on a train doesn't bother me one lick. Being grateful that I have a decent reservation and decent service over a huge selection is what I feel good about.


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## Walt (Feb 20, 2009)

ThayerATM said:


> From what I've read on this forum, the dining car menu will stay pretty much the same throughout the trip. Not many "local foods," as on the CONO. How exciting is that?


Actually, I find that consistency comforting. I like predictability. I would find it more troubling if I had to worry that the only menu items for dinner that night might be either Sweat Breads or Liver with Turnips.

While one might not like McD's, at least one knows for sure what will be on the menu before they enter.

In all my years riding on Amtrak, I have never had a bad meal. Sometimes service is a bit slow, but then again, what's my rush? Just to get back to my roomette? Besides, slower service gives me more time to chat with my new table-mates.

My only complaint, if that is even the right word, is that I am STUFFED by the time I reach my destination. I am not use to eating all that much food, but somehow feel obligated to because I already paid for it.


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## Larry H. (Feb 20, 2009)

RailFanLNK said:


> My girlfriend and I and her two daughters were on the LSL summer of 2007. The menu had silver duct tape over 90% of the items that "used" (?) to be offered. I much preferred the selection on the SWC and CZ. The menu had so much duct tape on it, I thought Red Green might appear in the diner.
> I for one, can eat the same thing day in and day out. Daily I eat two Lean Pockets for lunch. Been eating them 5 days a week now for 2 years. So eating the same thing over and over on a train doesn't bother me one lick. Being grateful that I have a decent reservation and decent service over a huge selection is what I feel good about.



Duct Tape! That must be what is in that big pile of boxes where the center table used to be on one end? Or maybe it came from the banging doors in the viewliner sleepers? Or maybe it was used to try and stop the water leak over the vestibules? Well then too it could have been holding the curtains closed in the roomettes where the velco is absent? Maybe it was being used to hold the lights from falling out of the sockets in the reading lamps?

Gee Amtrak must be making the duct Tape makers rich.

In reality, on the subject of the food, I actually found the entries on the Lake Shore to be a bit more tasty than the experience we had going east on the Capitol. The Empire Builder when we rode it still had most on board preparation, but shortly after I believe they cut that back also. On place where someone at Amtrak actually did rather well is in the replacement vinyl china. A quick glance at it gives the appearance of china which at least to some degree helps to keep it from looking totally cheesy. Plus the food most of the time is a few notches higher than the first attempt to go "Microwave" which was totally uneatable. At least now you won't starve and sometimes you can be quite pleased, but fine dining, Well??????


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## RailFanLNK (Feb 20, 2009)

Our food wasn't bad on the LSL, just absolutely no choice, it was either a burger or a burger! :lol: They only had one dessert and it was vanilla ice cream. My girlfriend's teenage daughter quietly asked the LSA, "do you have any chocolate syrup?" And the LSA replied, "yes we do!" He came back and made chocolate swirls with the Hersheys and dressed up a bland carton of ice cream and made it really cool. He also "showed off" a little bit and made the whole thing fun for all of us! He got a bigger tip because of that!

Al


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## wayman (Feb 20, 2009)

RailFanLNK said:


> Our food wasn't bad on the LSL, just absolutely no choice, it was either a burger or a burger! :lol: They only had one dessert and it was vanilla ice cream. My girlfriend's teenage daughter quietly asked the LSA, "do you have any chocolate syrup?" And the LSA replied, "yes we do!" He came back and make chocolate swirls with the Hersheys and dressed up a bland carton of ice cream and made it really cool. He also "showed off" a little bit and made the whole thing fun for all of us! He got a bigger tip because of that!


That's great! Every now and then you get a really super LSA who goes the extra mile like that. Michael on the Cardinal's diner lite had a similar super-friendly, can-do approach to his work. And especially with a diner lite, the service can really make or break the dining experience.


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## Walt (Feb 20, 2009)

RailFanLNK said:


> Our food wasn't bad on the LSL, just absolutely no choice, it was either a burger or a burger! :lol: They only had one dessert and it was vanilla ice cream.


Like their burgers, and their Häagen-Dazs vanilla ice cream!

That's probably why I am such a happy dining car customer.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 20, 2009)

Walt said:


> RailFanLNK said:
> 
> 
> > Our food wasn't bad on the LSL, just absolutely no choice, it was either a burger or a burger! :lol: They only had one dessert and it was vanilla ice cream.
> ...


On the CL the LSA always puts my ice cream in their strawberry syrup from the breakfast service to make me a sundae!


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## GG-1 (Feb 20, 2009)

Aloha

A large part of "Fine" dining is the location and services. There are few restaurants that move locations while dining, and so far I have always had great service.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 20, 2009)

I never thought this topic would apply to me... but I'll be taking the LSL myself.

I feel like I have been spoiled by the CL diner-ish-thingy.


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## Guest_timetableflagman_* (Feb 22, 2009)

On the CARDINAL dinette, about two or three years ago, I experienced what I would consider "fine dining" service from some of the staff, even with that train's plastic plates, etc. On some trains, one might experience worse service.

Around five or six years ago, I found AMTRAK dining service to be at least adequate, but usually with a touch of class, on the SILVER PALM, SILVER STAR and on the EMPIRE BUILDER as late as about two or three years ago. I considered most of their dining staff to be exceptional. They seem to usually try to make the experience like "fine dining", even if it might be just regular restaurant or even fast food-like quality.

I think the railroads always attempted to at least give that impression. True "fine dining" might entail an extra fare on private cars.


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## Konrad (Feb 22, 2009)

Guest_timetableflagman_* said:


> On the CARDINAL dinette, about two or three years ago, I experienced what I would consider "fine dining" service from some of the staff, even with that train's plastic plates, etc. On some trains, one might experience worse service.
> Around five or six years ago, I found AMTRAK dining service to be at least adequate, but usually with a touch of class, on the SILVER PALM, SILVER STAR and on the EMPIRE BUILDER as late as about two or three years ago. I considered most of their dining staff to be exceptional. They seem to usually try to make the experience like "fine dining", even if it might be just regular restaurant or even fast food-like quality.
> 
> I think the railroads always attempted to at least give that impression. True "fine dining" might entail an extra fare on private cars.


Service is generally 'fine'. Dining approaches 'puke'.

Fine dining on scheduled trains does not exist in the USA! :angry:


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 22, 2009)

Konrad said:


> Guest_timetableflagman_* said:
> 
> 
> > On the CARDINAL dinette, about two or three years ago, I experienced what I would consider "fine dining" service from some of the staff, even with that train's plastic plates, etc. On some trains, one might experience worse service.
> ...


And why should it?

Nice comfy, low-bucket coach seats and beef jerky is all you need!


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## Konrad (Feb 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > Guest_timetableflagman_* said:
> ...


I'm a bedroom passenger and Amtrak food is a joke. Boring, cheap and repetitive. SFO - CHI - SFO with exactly the same menu (and specials) in both directions was, to say the least, disappointing.

Indian-Pacific Sydney - Perth and you'll get meals people talk about. And not for the same reasons people talk about Amtrak meals!!! :angry:


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## Konrad (Feb 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > Guest_timetableflagman_* said:
> ...


Oh, and our coaches have showers.


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## Larry H. (Feb 22, 2009)

Your observations are a sad commentary on the state of our diners. Many here have long since given up on having a real dining experience and settled for somewhat tasty pre-made but boring repetitive meals. People who are not rabid rail supporters or apologist for Amtrak often are disappointed in the meals on board for the price charged. I have shared the table with many who gave Amtrak their first try from flying and are often unhappy with the kind of foods and accommodations they have paid for. It may be true that older passengers with long memories may be the most unhappy with the quality now given. People today growing up on Mc Donald's and other fast food presentation restaurants are probably the most forgiving. But then at Mc Donald's I don't expect more for my 5.00. However for a several thousand dollar trip, I would like to have a bit more variety and well prepared meals, served in a bit more comfy surroundings. A photo of almost any 50's diner will put todays Spartan rows of card tables to shame. Maybe there will be a glimmer of hope with more funding and new management, but I most likely will never see it.


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## The Metropolitan (Feb 22, 2009)

Looking at this thread, it seems apparent to me that among those who have "prepaid" their meals, there are:

People who pay vastly varying degrees of price to ride Amtrak sleepers, and as a result we get

People who have vastly varying degrees of expectations of the dining experience.

Starting off with just the coach perspective, for those paying for their meals in the Dining car, the result is reasonable. Yes, you might be able to get the same steak for $10.95 at Applebees, but at least you can get it on the train, so it's still a decent buy.

For sleepers however, it seems the expectations are largely linked to price.

I'm what you could call a "Sleeper Cheapskate" as I will only make the trip if I can get one of the lowest 2 buckets in roomette, and I'm doubling up with a riding partner to help defray the costs. The result is that I'm usually paying between $60-$80 a night out of pocket for the upgrade.

I'm no stranger to either fast food or the "casual dining" experience as its called among the chain sit-down restaurants. I will do an occasional meal with company at a nicer seafood restaurant like M&S, but these are occasional.

Thus, I'm pretty satisfied with Amtrak's dining service. While the variety is limited, I've found nearly all my meals to be at least satisfactory, and some to be downright excellent. About my biggest gripe is that the breakfast potatoes tend to get cold quickly.

However, I can see that someone who paid top bucket for a single occupancy in a full bedroom is liable to have higher expectations from their meal experience, considering they likely paid $450 a night for their upgrade. Yes, a part of that is from having more space, but even a single person getting a late roomette can pay over $300 for a single night. I'm sure that to them, the meals fall short of their expectations.

So what would be the solution?

A revamp of the pricing structure to even out the buckets some more? This might price out people like me, and leave the sleepers hardly occupied, jeopardizing the service.

Some sort of a "super-sleeper" upgrade that allows the less price-sensitive among us to choose from some expanded, finer dining menu? Would Amtrak realistically be able to stock a train without having spoilage or frusrtrating people with sell-outs of the item they want?

It seems that for every one complaint I hear about the quality of Amtrak's dining service, I hear one remark that finds it perfectly acceptable, and one that praises it for being so much nicer than anything offered on airlines.

I guess as with anything, it's all about one's perspective.


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## warren (Feb 22, 2009)

The Metropolitan said:


> Looking at this thread, it seems apparent to me that among those who have "prepaid" their meals, there are:
> People who pay vastly varying degrees of price to ride Amtrak sleepers, and as a result we get
> 
> People who have vastly varying degrees of expectations of the dining experience.
> ...



I think your observations are on target. Personally, I have found the dining car experience to be OK. I have traveled on Amtrak enough over the past couple of years to understand that some items on the menu are often more consistent than others.


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## daveyb99 (Feb 22, 2009)

I would also agree the Diner is just "OK".

AMTRAK needs to invest time in new menu items and rotating them on and off the menu. Something CREATIVE. Anything.

I have no idea what kind of a deal AMTRAK could make with SKY CHEFS, but they are hurting right now due to airline cutbacks. They are in almost every major city AMTRAK serves. They have the infrastructure to create and deliver quality products. And at a reasonable price. This current vendor is fine with sodas and chips and the 7-11 style cafe products, but the rest is just blah.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 22, 2009)

> I'm what you could call a "Sleeper Cheapskate" as I will only make the trip if I can get one of the lowest 2 buckets in roomette, and I'm doubling up with a riding partner to help defray the costs. The result is that I'm usually paying between $60-$80 a night out of pocket for the upgrade.


I am too-- a total pragmatist. It I am paying X number dollars to upgrade then I want to get Q number dollars in drinks, Y number dollars in food, Z number dollars in services that, given the fact that I am virile and 20, can do myself without any assistance, and V number dollars doubles it all if I have a partner.

And if Q, V, Y, and Z don't come within a reasonable range of the cost, X, then it isn't worth it.

That's where the diners come in-- Y.

Now it is universally agreed that if you're gonna drop $20 in the diner, you want to do it on the Empire Builder or one of the less-SDS affected routes. Go on down the list and you'll find the single-levels, the Silvers, LSL, ect which can't do anything besides a steam table and convection ovens. The price remains the same-- but think of this.

When you go to most diners (as in Denny's, Applebees, the national chains) all that food comes in flash FROZEN. Half the time it isn't even cooked from raw. And trust me, I have had burgers at Denny's that cost AS much as burgers on any diner (not snack car) in the fleet and they were AWFUL. At least with this you don't pay for something that is going to make you vomit.

Yes it would be nice to have the old diner service back. Yes this is a for-sure step down. But is it really that bad? Really... I don't mind making jokes about it but there's no reason to downright INSULT it as if it's dog crap.


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## printman2000 (Feb 22, 2009)

I have always been happy with the food and I have ridden Superliner and the LSL. I guess I am more willing to add the experience of being on a train to the experience of eating the food. So I kinda see it all together. If that makes any sense.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 22, 2009)

printman2000 said:


> I have always been happy with the food and I have ridden Superliner and the LSL. I guess I am more willing to add the experience of being on a train to the experience of eating the food. So I kinda see it all together. If that makes any sense.



That-- and it feed you. Its food. Better than nothing.


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## Larry H. (Feb 22, 2009)

I don't disagree that things are better food wise than they used to be. Coupled with way less help, longer waits, less selection, and sometimes rude service, it tends to disappoint some. Frankly I think I mentioned here on this or another post the other day that the Lakeshore for the limited diner it has and the less than tasteful crates stacked in the middle of the floor, was in my opinion a rather good meal, at least what I ordered which was a beef in wine or something like that. No complaints on that dinner meal. The waiter refused to sell the pizza to a coach passenger who sat with us saying it was uneatable. The morning meal was fair, but a cook preparing eggs and bacon would have been much more like one would want.

I am always curious about how a place like Applebees with teenagers in the kitchen and mostly pre made foods, can turn out such a normally good meal. I think Amtrak is closer to that now than before. That isn't to say it compares in any sense with the days when the food was made by people who cared how they turned it out. The observation on price structure is interesting also. For two of use we spent about 5,600 for a round trip to california. When a carrier charges that kind of fee, and it wasn't the highest bucket either, then one would like to think at least that the meals would be freshly made and served in somewhat pleasant surroundings. Before the last go round of installing plastic plates, as nice as they are, and removal of glasses and china and table cloths it was at least something like an attempt to create a sense of "fine" dining allah railroad style. But topped with even less selection, less service and sometimes silly things like "we don't make toast anymore". I mean, how hard could it be to make a piece of toast for morning breakfast? Somethings make little sense. I know that much of it was demanded by the congress and I have written my share of opinions to my congress men about the way they have treated the passengers.

If you settle for mediocre that is what you will continue to get.


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## the_traveler (Feb 22, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> People who are not rabid rail supporters or apologist for Amtrak often are disappointed in the meals on board for the price charged. I have shared the table with many who gave Amtrak their first try from flying and are often unhappy with the kind of foods and accommodations they have paid for.


And those people are happy with the "food" they get on airlines - flying from NY to LA or Chicago to Miami or Washington to Atlanta *in coach*? :huh: If they buy at the last minute, and/or pay full coach fares, they spend mucho bucks - and they are lucky to get some peanuts and a soda!


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## ThayerATM (Feb 22, 2009)

printman2000 said:


> I have always been happy with the food and I have ridden Superliner and the LSL. I guess I am more willing to add the experience of being on a train to the experience of eating the food. So I kinda see it all together. If that makes any sense.


When I started this post I used the term "fine dining" in the title, but I never expected "fine dining" on Amtrak. After all, Amtrak isn't Hotel Thayer at West Point. I've been there. Done that. It's a whole different world.

At the same time I've never been disappointed with Amtrak's food or the food presentation. This is a train, for pete's sake. My wife and I are bedroom travelers on a train, and the "free" food is a nice perk, as are the 1st class lounges.

My original post was to find out what different things I could expect in the dining cars on those three trains (EB, CS, and CZ) as compared to the LSL.

*The most significant thing seems to be that the staff can make or break the experience*, which is true of ANY train.

Next, the EB goes out of its way for amenities such as glass plates, stainless steel flatware, and cloth table covers.

Next, the CS goes out of its way by providing diverse cars for 1st class passengers. I like the extra touch of the PPC.

Next, the CZ is your typical full dining experience on Amtrak.

Next, the menu on all four trains will be pretty much the same, although the presentation can vary because of a full kitchen on the EB, CS and CZ.

Have I missed anything?


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## transit54 (Feb 22, 2009)

My experience with dining on Amtrak is very limited, as the bulk of my Amtrak experience is on daytime trains. Namely one trip on the LSL (in 2007) which I upgraded to a sleeper on board. I had a burger and while I admit my expectations were lowered by this forum, I think it was quite good. Not the best burger I ever had, but certainly well within my expectations. I wasn't the least bit disappointed. I can understand the complaints that people have about the meals on Amtrak, though. I'd be interested in hearing what everyone thinks it would take to bring Amtrak back to an acceptable level of quality. Obviously the food would cost more and there would likely need to be some staffing increases. But is that it? Do they have the equipment they need to make a jump in quality? Do you think these increases could be compensated for by increasing ticket prices?

Not to take this thread off topic, but one area I think Amtrak is very, very lacking in is food service on daytime trains. For long trips like the Maple Leaf, Vermonter, Adirondack, Pennsylvanian and I'm sure many others, one really needs to pack in advance as the food in the cafe cars is really terrible. Sure, I enjoy the cookies and some of the snacks, and do have a fondness for the AmMuffins, but if I want a solid lunch, I'd better bring it with me. The ham and cheese sandwiches they offer are nothing short of foul, and I can't really comment on the rest of the menu. Many people I have taken with me on train trips have constantly echoed the complaint that they can't get anything good to eat on the train and I think this really deters a lot of people. At least LD trains have decent food options, even if they're not comparable to the price paid. While it seems unlikely that Amtrak would ever add dining cars to daytime trains, there just has to be a better way. What did railroad do pre-Amtrak on these types of trains?


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 22, 2009)

> My original post was to find out what different things I could expect in the dining cars on those three trains (EB, CS, and CZ) as compared to the LSL.


Just don't expect too much and you'll be fine.


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## Larry H. (Feb 22, 2009)

The old time short distance trains I rode run by the Iillinois Central, "Green Diamond", the GM& O" Ann Rutledge" Missouri Pacific to Kansas City and Omaha (name escapes me) and the Walbash" Banner Blue", and more all carried full service diners with full table service with four waiters and a supervisor, a kitchen full of cooks and real everything. Its a recent development that rail travel should be so Spartan.

Your right, a short distance train trip is a food nightmare for some. If your Diabetic, or have Fat issues, your totally ignored. I always find it of interest that the vast percentage of sleeper passengers is over 50 and prone to both issues and yet not one fat reduced or sugar free item is on the menu most of the time. Even a small thing like sugar free syrup would be nice, but not so far. Even the local cheap diner can make you egg beaters or provide sugar free syrup, so far Amtrak hasn't a clue. And while I am at, how about a baked or no fat potato chip to go with that soggy sub.


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## mercedeslove (Feb 22, 2009)

I think the food in the dining cars is fine. I mean you are on a train sometimes in the middle of nowhere. It's not going to be the Ritz. I have had worse meals in many restaurants. I have only had one problem with food on Amtrak. The Tuna sandwich. I could have gone for a spoonful more of meat, but other than that it was very tasty. Beggars can't be choosers.

I'd rather have a tuna sandwich with a spoonful less of tuna then a bag of for six peanuts, or driving and stopping at a dive diner.

Think of it this way, you could have to bring your own food and there could be no food on board.


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## AlanB (Feb 22, 2009)

Larry H. said:


> Even the local cheap diner can make you egg beaters or provide sugar free syrup, so far Amtrak hasn't a clue.


I'm not sure about the sugar free syrup, as I've never asked. But the following comes directly from the menu:



> (Egg substitutes are available upon request.)


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## Larry H. (Feb 22, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > Even the local cheap diner can make you egg beaters or provide sugar free syrup, so far Amtrak hasn't a clue.
> ...


Your correct, I forgot that the last set of trips they did offer egg beaters.


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## PRR 60 (Feb 22, 2009)

the_traveler said:


> Larry H. said:
> 
> 
> > People who are not rabid rail supporters or apologist for Amtrak often are disappointed in the meals on board for the price charged. I have shared the table with many who gave Amtrak their first try from flying and are often unhappy with the kind of foods and accommodations they have paid for.
> ...


But they get to the destination in a few hours, not in a day or days. The need for decent food on a 50-hour trip is a lot more critical than the need for food on even a six hour flight.

I wish the LD dining cars got some of the attention that the food service in Acela First Class gets. On Acela there is a real attempt to be creative. The Acela menus are rotated and regularly changed. My criticism of Acela is that the menu may be too creative with no safe option. However, the last time I rode (January), the dinner offerings were great. I think the passengers on the LD's deserve some of that same effort and creativity. The menu in the LD's is dull, dull, dull. Over the course of multiple days captive to dining car food, that menu can get old in hurry.


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## transit54 (Feb 22, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> I wish the LD dining cars got some of the attention that the food service in Acela First Class gets. On Acela there is a real attempt to be creative, and the menus are rotated and regularly changed. My criticism of Acela is that the menu may be too creative with no safe option, but the last time I rode, the dinner offerings were great. I think the passengers on the LD's deserve some of that same effort and creativity. The menu in the LD's is dull, dull, dull. Over the course of multiple days captive to dining car food, that menu can get old in hurry.


That brings up a very interesting point. What's involved in preparing the meals for Acela FC? I can't imagine them having much more than a convection oven. And if that's the case, I have to question why LD train meals aren't better and there isn't more variety. Sure, the Acela has much shorter distances between stations where it can be restocked, but I can't imagine that being much of an issue. If Amtrak can do it for the Acela, why not for LD trains? Is there something I'm missing, or has management just been neglecting the LD trains?


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## Konrad (Feb 22, 2009)

mercedeslove said:


> I think the food in the dining cars is fine. I mean you are on a train sometimes in the middle of nowhere. It's not going to be the Ritz. I have had worse meals in many restaurants. I have only had one problem with food on Amtrak. The Tuna sandwich. I could have gone for a spoonful more of meat, but other than that it was very tasty. Beggars can't be choosers.
> I'd rather have a tuna sandwich with a spoonful less of tuna then a bag of for six peanuts, or driving and stopping at a dive diner.
> 
> Think of it this way, you could have to bring your own food and there could be no food on board.


You don't get much more remote than the middle of the Nullarbor Plain and the food and service is excellent. Coupled with real linen, correct glasses and real china it's a meal to look forward to.

Of course, a separate economy diner helps them to maintain standards in first class.

And before anyone squawks about the fare differential, at current exchange rates the Indian-Pacific is cheaper than a mid bucket Amtrak fare. My journey in March is currently $AU2900 (thank goodness for low buckets and a purchase made before our dollar collapsed!).


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## PRR 60 (Feb 22, 2009)

rnizlek said:


> That brings up a very interesting point. What's involved in preparing the meals for Acela FC? I can't imagine them having much more than a convection oven. And if that's the case, I have to question why LD train meals aren't better and there isn't more variety. Sure, the Acela has much shorter distances between stations where it can be restocked, but I can't imagine that being much of an issue. If Amtrak can do it for the Acela, why not for LD trains? Is there something I'm missing, or has management just been neglecting the LD trains?


Acela First Class meal prep is virtually identical to airline meal prep - convection ovens. In fact, the Acela galley is very mich like an airliner galley. Acela is now catered by Aramark - the national food service outfit. All Acela meals are designed to have a two-day shelf life, which could certainly work on most LD's with no tweaking. I'm not sure if Aramark is now catering all Amtrak, but I suspect they are.

Your point about the LD's being neglected is right on the mark. I think there is a feeling at Amtrak that Acela First Class passengers are knowledgeable and discriminating, and LD Sleeper passengers are Ma and Pa Kettle. So they try to wow the Acela group with good meals and unlimited wine and spirits, and the LD crowd gets Denny's style meals and one soft drink. That's not to say that the LD dining cars don't deliver some good food. But imaginative, not hardly.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Feb 22, 2009)

I think he hit right on the mark there. Not everybody will dig Acela food, not everybody has a New Yorker tongue. You have to stock the train with food that will sell and won't go to waste.


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## PetalumaLoco (Feb 22, 2009)

Konrad said:


> mercedeslove said:
> 
> 
> > I think the food in the dining cars is fine. I mean you are on a train sometimes in the middle of nowhere. It's not going to be the Ritz. I have had worse meals in many restaurants. I have only had one problem with food on Amtrak. The Tuna sandwich. I could have gone for a spoonful more of meat, but other than that it was very tasty. Beggars can't be choosers.
> ...


Ok, you sold me. How much is fare from California to India?


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## jackal (Feb 22, 2009)

Konrad said:


> mercedeslove said:
> 
> 
> > I think the food in the dining cars is fine. I mean you are on a train sometimes in the middle of nowhere. It's not going to be the Ritz. I have had worse meals in many restaurants. I have only had one problem with food on Amtrak. The Tuna sandwich. I could have gone for a spoonful more of meat, but other than that it was very tasty. Beggars can't be choosers.
> ...


You're making me envious!!!

I wish I would have been able to do it while I was down there. I had plans to, but we opted to extend our stay in SE Asia at the expense of some time in Australia, so we were only able to make a circle from Sydney to Cairns to Alice Springs to Adelaide, Melbourne, and back to Sydney.

I did stop and get a picture of myself standing on the tracks used by the Ghan and the Indian Pacific, though! 



PetalumaLoco said:


> Ok, you sold me. How much is fare from California to India?


Actually, the Indian Pacific is the train run by Great Southern Railway of Australia from Sydney to Perth (with a side stop in Adelaide), thereby touching both the Indian (in Perth) and Pacific (in Sydney) oceans, hence the name.

One of the world's great train journeys...including a stretch on the world's longest length of straight track at 478 km without a single curve. (I've always wondered what speed the train hits on that stretch--any idea, Konrad?) It's wild terrain out there...very dry but beautiful!

(I probably won't be able to afford Gold Kangaroo service for awhile yet, so as much as I'd like to experience the luxury of it, I'll likely be stuck in a Red Kangaroo seat...)


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## Konrad (Feb 22, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > mercedeslove said:
> ...


LAX - Mumbai - LAX via Sydney is $AU11000, since you asked. Why, I'll never know.

The point is that a minor country like Australia can run quite a few decent rail services and the US just seems to cater to the lowest possible denominator. It's about choice and in the US it's fly on minimum service airlines (and don't we all love US airports), drive (on the 'wrong' side of the road) or take the train.

I prefer the train because I see so much more and get to meet people. It's just such a pity that the experience is spoiled by the lousy food choices - it could, and should, be so much better.

Incidentally, most of our long distance trains are operated by private operators with a government subsidy, on government owned tracks. That's why the freights have to get out of the way - 200 voters have to be kept happy. <_<


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## PetalumaLoco (Feb 22, 2009)

Konrad said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > Konrad said:
> ...


Well, it is what it is. I realize other countries have better rail service and accommodations. I'm going to enjoy what I nave here regardless.


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## jackal (Feb 23, 2009)

Konrad said:


> LAX - Mumbai - LAX via Sydney is $AU11000, since you asked. Why, I'll never know.


Just so as not to scare the OP of the question (PetalumaLoco), LAX-BOM (Mumbai, aka Bombay) can be had for $1265 for a random pair of dates in October. Perhaps Konrad was explicitly specifying a stop in SYD, which would jack the fare up (that much, though!?).

But I suspect the question is irrelevant, since I think PetalumaLoco was confused about the train's route.

BTW, LAX-SYD can be had for $773 for the same random dates in October.


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## AlanB (Feb 23, 2009)

PRR 60 said:


> I'm not sure if Aramark is now catering all Amtrak, but I suspect they are.


Bill, I'm not sure who does the catering for the LD's, and I suspect that it is indeed Aramark, but I can tell you for sure that it's no longer Gate.



PRR 60 said:


> Your point about the LD's being neglected is right on the mark. I think there is a feeling at Amtrak that Acela First Class passengers are knowledgeable and discriminating, and LD Sleeper passengers are Ma and Pa Kettle. So they try to wow the Acela group with good meals and unlimited wine and spirits, and the LD crowd gets Denny's style meals and one soft drink. That's not to say that the LD dining cars don't deliver some good food. But imaginative, not hardly.


I can't recall from the tally at the moment, but have you been on an LD since October? While still not up to Acela standards, things really did make a dramatic change on the LD's with the new menu that came out last October.


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## Konrad (Feb 23, 2009)

jackal said:


> Konrad said:
> 
> 
> > LAX - Mumbai - LAX via Sydney is $AU11000, since you asked. Why, I'll never know.
> ...


For me to take that route I'd have to pass through Sydney. I suspect that there is some confusion between the Nullarbor and the Deccan for the original question to arise.

Just what has the airfare to India to do with transcontinental train journeys in the first world?

And this is getting way off the original topic 'FINE DINING ON AMTRAK'.

And the point is it doesn't exist, which is a great disappointment to me.

But then 'TIME KEEPING ON AMTRAK' might send me ballistic!!!

However one might find that if the meals weren't incorporated into the sleeper fares the dining cars might disappear completely as they'd never get paying passengers to use them. After all, I've never seen an influx of passengers from the back of the train waiting to use the diner. And,that said, without diners you'd kill your international (and premium) income stream as foreign passengers just can't pre-prepare meals for three day journey (hotel rooms are lousy for food preparation and storage).

Bottom line - coach passengers restricted to the SSL cafe and sleeper passengers given a first class menu in the diner (even if they have to pay more for the privilege). And a first class lounge with bar and attendants wouldn't hurt either - that'd make money.


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## Guest_jim692_* (Mar 22, 2009)

On a topic like dining, surprised I didn't see any DIY suggestions. After some so-so food experiences on the CZ in '07, on my '08 trip I took along a small cooler in coach. Before getting aboard, I'd hunt up a good sandwich shop near the station and have that in the cooler too. From my cooler when a conductor wasn't around I'd unload some merlot into a dark plastic cup and drag out some cheese & crackers too. Also had some dipping veggies with some ranch dip. The train was only half full and I could snack whenever hungry.


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## ExtonFlyer (Mar 22, 2009)

> I can't recall from the tally at the moment, but have you been on an LD since October? While still not up to Acela standards, things really did make a dramatic change on the LD's with the new menu that came out last October.


Was this dramatic change on all routes? That would be such welcome news. I am going to be taking the Silver Star on Tuesday (3/24) from PHL-Tampa - so would be very interested to know (and I guess I'll find out soon enough).


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 22, 2009)

Guest_jim692_* said:


> On a topic like dining, surprised I didn't see any DIY suggestions. After some so-so food experiences on the CZ in '07, on my '08 trip I took along a small cooler in coach. Before getting aboard, I'd hunt up a good sandwich shop near the station and have that in the cooler too. From my cooler when a conductor wasn't around I'd unload some merlot into a dark plastic cup and drag out some cheese & crackers too. Also had some dipping veggies with some ranch dip. The train was only half full and I could snack whenever hungry.


you may not be aware but your ALLOWED to bring your own food and drinks onboard the train. and you can even bring booze but ONLY if you have a sleeper.


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## MrFSS (Mar 22, 2009)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> you may not be aware but your ALLOWED to bring your own food and drinks onboard the train. and you can even bring booze but ONLY if you have a sleeper.


You can bring you own booze in coach - you just can't drink it in coach, theoretically.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Mar 22, 2009)

MrFSS said:


> KISS_ALIVE said:
> 
> 
> > you may not be aware but your ALLOWED to bring your own food and drinks onboard the train. and you can even bring booze but ONLY if you have a sleeper.
> ...


Yet another use for the bathrooms. h34r:


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> MrFSS said:
> 
> 
> > KISS_ALIVE said:
> ...


or do what they do in those non-alcoholic bars pick up those small bottles of vodka etc and pour them into your drink before leaving the house.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Mar 22, 2009)

KISS_ALIVE said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > MrFSS said:
> ...


Yeah but I don't much like drinking Vodka and Coke. I prefer it straight up.

On a side note, I've noticed that I've never been carded in the diner or lounge to drink booze. I am 20, look 21 enough-- but I've always wondered if Amtrak can't do anything as long as I am well behaved because we cross various jurisdictions? I mean, isn't Amtrak its own jurisdiction?

Or do the staff just-- not care.


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> Yeah but I don't much like drinking Vodka and Coke. I prefer it straight up.


Amtrak is a Pepsi only concern.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Mar 22, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah but I don't much like drinking Vodka and Coke. I prefer it straight up.
> ...


He was talking about doing it before getting on board.

I keep Coke in my house. No Pepsi for me!

Actually... not much Coke either... just tap water.


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> PetalumaLoco said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Yeah, I'm a coke guy too.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 22, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > PetalumaLoco said:
> ...


im a 2 timer  i perfer coke but will drink pepsi.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Mar 22, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > PetalumaLoco said:
> ...


Anyway, back to my question--

Alcohol to underage people on Amtrak? Attendants not caring? Amtrak its own jurisdiction? Crossing state lines allows for it?


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## Ispolkom (Mar 22, 2009)

ALC_Rail_Writer said:


> On a side note, I've noticed that I've never been carded in the diner or lounge to drink booze. I am 20, look 21 enough-- but I've always wondered if Amtrak can't do anything as long as I am well behaved because we cross various jurisdictions? I mean, isn't Amtrak its own jurisdiction?
> Or do the staff just-- not care.


Legal drinking age is 21 everywhere in the United States (with some small exceptions), so I imagine that the staff doesn't care to card intensively, as long as you look old enough and are not obnoxious. They don't need to card you to refuse you service. Remember, bars and liquor stores that carefully check patrons' ages do so 1) to keep good order in their establishments, and 2) to avoid the heavy fines and temporary closures that can result from a police sting. #2 probably won't happen on an Amtrak train (though it used to).

Me, I'm old enough to remember when Amtrak followed state blue laws.


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## AlanB (Mar 22, 2009)

ExtonFlyer said:


> > I can't recall from the tally at the moment, but have you been on an LD since October? While still not up to Acela standards, things really did make a dramatic change on the LD's with the new menu that came out last October.
> 
> 
> Was this dramatic change on all routes? That would be such welcome news. I am going to be taking the Silver Star on Tuesday (3/24) from PHL-Tampa - so would be very interested to know (and I guess I'll find out soon enough).


All routes, except for the Auto Train.


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## AlanB (Mar 22, 2009)

Ispolkom said:


> ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> 
> 
> > On a side note, I've noticed that I've never been carded in the diner or lounge to drink booze. I am 20, look 21 enough-- but I've always wondered if Amtrak can't do anything as long as I am well behaved because we cross various jurisdictions? I mean, isn't Amtrak its own jurisdiction?
> ...


I have seen the staff ask for ID from people, but I'm not sure that all the staff always do.

And Amtrak gave up on following all the State's various laws, they basically just operate on the are you 21 premise.


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## ALC Rail Writer (Mar 22, 2009)

> I have seen the staff ask for ID from people, but I'm not sure that all the staff always do.
> And Amtrak gave up on following all the State's various laws, they basically just operate on the are you 21 premise.


It's the same as it is anywhere else then. Lots of people don't card because-- well, it increased sales and it can be a hassle.

Not that I'm saying minors should be allowed to consume alcohol, but in many cases I find that they just don't care. Typically I've seen that most SA's are able to tell if you're mature enough to handle a tipple, with a 21+ ID or not.


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## wayman (Mar 22, 2009)

AlanB said:


> Ispolkom said:
> 
> 
> > ALC_Rail_Writer said:
> ...


Alan: unless things have changed since October 2007 (and perhaps they have), Amtrak may still follow some unconventional state laws regarding alcohol--"blue laws" at least. On the eastbound Cardinal for Sunday lunch (we were in West Virginia at the time), the dining hall staff told us we had to wait until 1pm to order wine or beer and that no liquor could be served until the Virginia state line, per West Virginia law.


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## olejf (Mar 22, 2009)

in my limited experience, lsl once, cz twice, the food was OK, service unobjectiable, as many of you have said. what i can add is that the wine is good and an honest value. i remember the cab, perhaps because i had the flat iron steak several times. and sharing it with my fellow diners made me a hero at an affordable price. correct me if i'm wrong (don't bother, i'm not) but fine dining means wine, too.


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## jmbgeg (Mar 22, 2009)

ThayerATM said:


> In September we're going to be taking the Lake Shore Limited from Rochester NY (ROC) to Chicago, then takaing the Empire Builder from Chicago (CHI) to Seattle WA (SEA). After a couple of days in SEA we'll be getting on the Coast Starlight south to Emeryville (EMY). We'll overnight in EMY, then take the California Zephyr back to CHI, and then the LSL back to ROC. We will be riding in a bedroom all the way, so the meals will be included.
> From what I've read on this forum, the dining car menu will stay pretty much the same throughout the trip. Not many "local foods," as on the CONO. How exciting is that?
> 
> We're already quite familiar with the dining car layout and menu on the LSL. What can we expect to be significantly different on any of the other three trains? Is it all about car layout? What's the big difference with "full service" dining that's said to be used on the Empire Builder, and dining on the California Zephyr? Dining on the Coast Starlight appears to be just a matter of "where" one chooses to eat.


I have been pleased with the quality of the dinner entrees on the EB and CS. Decent selection; well prepared and nice presentation. Breakfast and lunch are more basic. The menu in the Pacific Parlour car on the CS has been interesting, but the particular offerings on days I have traveled did not suit my preferences. On the CS I would start out by looking at the Parlour Car menus. If there are not slections that interest you, gravitate to the Dining Car. I have traveled on the CZ, but do not have relocation of whether the menu varied much from the CS and EB. One thing I have noted on all long distance train dining cars is that they do not have unlimited numbers of each selection. If you take a late reservation you might not get your first choice on the menu. That may or may not matter to you. There will also be wining tastings. They used to be free for sleepers but now they charge $5 cover charge for the wines and cheeses.


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## amtrakwolverine (Mar 22, 2009)

fine dining is something you find on the orient express. what i want is the same service as if i went to a decent sit down restaurant. not some service you find at bars.


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## p&sr (Mar 22, 2009)

AlanB said:


> And Amtrak gave up on following all the State's various laws, they basically just operate on the are you 21 premise.


For the Amtrak California Trains, they do follow California State Law concerning hours of serving: No Booze between 2 AM and 6 AM.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 22, 2009)

jmbgeg said:


> ThayerATM said:
> 
> 
> > In September we're going to be taking the Lake Shore Limited from Rochester NY (ROC) to Chicago, then takaing the Empire Builder from Chicago (CHI) to Seattle WA (SEA). After a couple of days in SEA we'll be getting on the Coast Starlight south to Emeryville (EMY). We'll overnight in EMY, then take the California Zephyr back to CHI, and then the LSL back to ROC. We will be riding in a bedroom all the way, so the meals will be included.
> ...


I'd agree with jmbgeg, with a couple of additions: I *like* breakfast on the train. Oatmeal, bacon, black coffee that tastes like coffee. Also, while there is a standardized menu, you can read about the new specials Amtrak offers here. My wife and I very much liked the crab cakes (though we couldn't taste any lobster in the accompanying sauce, and she's happy with any sandwich on a pretzel roll, but I thought that the Thai red curry coconut chicken lacked much Thai red curry coconut flavor. At least the diner has Tabasco sauce!

In any case, you can always get a steak and a baked potato for dinner, and the half bottles of wine for dinner aren't a bad value.


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## AlanB (Mar 22, 2009)

wayman said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > Ispolkom said:
> ...


And yet when I rode the Cardinal several years back I was sipping champagne in the lounge car as we went through New River Gorge, and again even a bit later at lunch.

I almost wonder if someone didn't want to be bothered selling you the wine.


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## AlanB (Mar 22, 2009)

p&sr said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And Amtrak gave up on following all the State's various laws, they basically just operate on the are you 21 premise.
> ...


Horse of a different color, since those aren't really Amtrak trains. They're California trains paid for by California and operated by Amtrak. California even picks the foods that are sold in the cafe cars, not Amtrak.

And frankly on what is to some extent a commuter service/game/show, that's probably a good idea.


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## wayman (Mar 23, 2009)

AlanB said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > AlanB said:
> ...


The crew actually went to a lot of extra bother. Upon seating every every table the exchange went something like this: "Here's the lunch menu, the sandwich today is thus-and-such, and I'm sorry, but we can't serve alcohol until 1pm and no liquor until we reach the state line", "You what? I don't understand...", "It's the state law here; I know, it's a bit unusual, but we have to follow the laws for whatever state we're in".

And then, right at 1pm, they went to every table and said "It's 1pm, you may order wine or beer now if you'd like", took orders, and served promptly.

Were you heading east on a Sunday? It's just the one day of the week that the law affects.

I don't know what Amtrak's official policy on state laws is, but this experience certainly gave me the impression that Amtrak follows alcohol laws closely. But it could just be that I had an unusually zealous law-abiding crew, or that someone had tipped the crew off that some political muckity-muck was on board.


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## AlanB (Mar 23, 2009)

wayman said:


> Were you heading east on a Sunday? It's just the one day of the week that the law affects.


I was headed east, but I don't recall what day of the week it was.


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## Ispolkom (Mar 23, 2009)

p&sr said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And Amtrak gave up on following all the State's various laws, they basically just operate on the are you 21 premise.
> ...


I'll bite. Is there an Amtrak lounge car open between 2 and 6 a.m.?


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## ScottC4746 (Mar 23, 2009)

ThayerATM said:


> In September we're going to be taking the Lake Shore Limited from Rochester NY (ROC) to Chicago, then takaing the Empire Builder from Chicago (CHI) to Seattle WA (SEA). After a couple of days in SEA we'll be getting on the Coast Starlight south to Emeryville (EMY). We'll overnight in EMY, then take the California Zephyr back to CHI, and then the LSL back to ROC. We will be riding in a bedroom all the way, so the meals will be included.
> From what I've read on this forum, the dining car menu will stay pretty much the same throughout the trip. Not many "local foods," as on the CONO. How exciting is that?
> 
> We're already quite familiar with the dining car layout and menu on the LSL. What can we expect to be significantly different on any of the other three trains? Is it all about car layout? What's the big difference with "full service" dining that's said to be used on the Empire Builder, and dining on the California Zephyr? Dining on the Coast Starlight appears to be just a matter of "where" one chooses to eat.


The days of fine dining on a train are left to American Orient Express and the Napa Valley Wine/Dinner trains. Amtrak meals think Denny's on rail from what I have been reading.


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## p&sr (Mar 23, 2009)

Ispolkom said:


> I'll bite. Is there an Amtrak lounge car open between 2 and 6 a.m.?


There can be.

After spending many unpleasant hours in LAUS waiting for the 1:25 AM Bus, then a tiresome ride on which they woke everybody up at 2:30 AM so we could eat HotDogs in Santa Clarita, then hanging around for an hour or so inside the Bakersfield Station, they finally allowed us to board the Northbound San Joaquin Train at 4:30 AM... in advance of a 4:55 AM departure. The snack bar in fact opened at 4:30 AM. I thought, Finally a chance to relax and sleep on board till daybreak, and a great chance for a Beer. The bartender of course disagreed, so it was back to HotDog and Pepsi for breakfast on board, once again.

I did discover later on that trip that the San Joaquin Train serves excellent "gourmet" coffee, with unlimited free refills!


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## sunchaser (Mar 23, 2009)

wayman said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > wayman said:
> ...


Amtrak has to follow the laws for any particular State they are travelling through.

Utah has some pretty strange Liquor laws as well. I'm not sure what category a train would fall into-maybe Limo or Bus.

You can only buy from 10:00 am to 1:00 am. Here's a link for those interested. Used to be that on Sunday, they wouldn't allow Beer sales in the grocery store. If you want anything stronger to take home, it is only available at the state liquor store.

http://www.alcbev.state.ut.us/Liquor_Laws/...g_visitors.html


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## AlanB (Mar 23, 2009)

ScottC4746 said:


> The days of fine dining on a train are left to American Orient Express and the Napa Valley Wine/Dinner trains. Amtrak meals think Denny's on rail from what I have been reading.


Sadly the American Orient Express is no more, so you won't be enjoying any fine dining on that train in the future. That is, unless someone comes along and buys the equipment and restarts the service.


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## MrFSS (Mar 23, 2009)

Other than on _*The Rocky Mountaineer*_, one of the finest meals I've had in a rail dining car was on *THIS* train. If you are traveling up that way, it is worth the price, especially in the dome car.


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## AlanB (Mar 23, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> Amtrak has to follow the laws for any particular State they are travelling through.Utah has some pretty strange Liquor laws as well. I'm not sure what category a train would fall into-maybe Limo or Bus.
> 
> You can only buy from 10:00 am to 1:00 am. Here's a link for those interested. Used to be that on Sunday, they wouldn't allow Beer sales in the grocery store. If you want anything stronger to take home, it is only available at the state liquor store.
> 
> http://www.alcbev.state.ut.us/Liquor_Laws/...g_visitors.html


Amtrak operates under Federal law on ROW's that are subject to Federal law, not state laws. If Amtrak wants to follow State laws on liquor, they are doing it to either just be nice or to avoid a fight in court, since that would cost them money. Everything about RR's is Federal law and controls, about the only thing that a state actually has the right to do is tax the land that the ROW is built on.


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## ourlouisiana (Mar 23, 2009)

Seems that would be correct, Amtrak following FEDERAL laws, since they are a railroad.

We were told both on the Crescent 2 years ago by the lounge attendant, and the CONO last year by the LSA, that they follow local jurisdictional guidelines when SELLING alcohol.

Most probably a courtesy thing, what can the SA do, look out the window to see what county they are in, or use the radio (that they don't have) to contact the engineer to find out where the train is ???

We love the earlier post about a new use for the restrooms in coach. On our first CONO trip from Hammond to Greenville, we brought a flask of JD, but we had a sleeper. Buying liquor on a train is expensive.

And we vote for Amtrak to serve DR DEPPER !!!!!


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## sunchaser (Mar 23, 2009)

AlanB said:


> sunchaser said:
> 
> 
> > Amtrak has to follow the laws for any particular State they are travelling through.Utah has some pretty strange Liquor laws as well. I'm not sure what category a train would fall into-maybe Limo or Bus.
> ...


My mistake. I was under the impression from some previous threads discussing certain behaviours that Amtrak followed the laws of the state. Dumb question-So is Amtrak 'owned' by the Feds, or just subsidized?


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## AlanB (Mar 23, 2009)

sunchaser said:


> Dumb question-So is Amtrak 'owned' by the Feds, or just subsidized?


Well there are some freight RR's that still own some common stock in Amtrak, but that is basically worthless paper as Amtrak has never paid a dividend in its history. But all the preferred stock, which is also the voting stock, is owned by the citizens of the United States, held in trust for us by the DOT.

Therefore the best answer to your question would be that the US owns most of Amtrak, but not quite all.


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## printman2000 (Mar 23, 2009)

ourlouisiana said:


> And we vote for Amtrak to serve DR DEPPER !!!!!


The Heartland Flyer serves DP. However, not Diet Dr Pepper.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 23, 2009)

There is a great deal of disagreement concerning what Amtrak and airlines must do regarding following state liquor laws. The US Constitution specifically delegates control of liquor sales to the states. That very same constitution delegates control of interstate commerce to the federal government. Is serving alcohol on a train or plane subject to state control of liquor or federal control of commerce? Good question. This has resulted in kind of standoff - with states declaring they have control over Amtrak and airline sales, and the carriers saying - well, maybe not.

The standoff continues today with neither side really willing to press their luck by asserting authority and causing a court case. The result is kind of a truce. The unwritten rule is that carriers purchase state liquor licenses for every state in which they operate (land or stop). The states then do not enforce time of day, day of the week, or any peculiar quirks in their sales law on the carriers. This has pretty much ended most of the "we can't do this until we are out of the state" nonsense. With some notable exceptions (US Airways and New Mexico, for example), the truce has held. Neither side is in a hurry to have a court test because each side fears the other may win. It is kind of like the old USA-USSR days. Mutual Assured Destruction has brought an uneasy peace.


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## EB_OBS (Mar 26, 2009)

Amtrak publishes and keeps updated it's Employee Standards manual to reflect all the states individual liquor laws.

Amtrak requires all it's employees to know, understand and to follow state liquor laws.


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## EB_OBS (Mar 26, 2009)

For those interested, in approximately early June, the Empire Builder and the Crescent will be upgrading their dining car menus a bit. Some more regional, but unique to that train, items will be added.

I know that on the EB, salmon and catfish are returning and that Ivars clam chowder and a bison meatloaf will debut. I'm told that biscuits and gravy and pancakes will be on the breakfast menu.


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## PetalumaLoco (Mar 26, 2009)

ez223 said:


> For those interested, in approximately early June, the Empire Builder and the Crescent will be upgrading their dining car menus a bit. Some more regional, but unique to that train, items will be added.
> I know that on the EB, salmon and catfish are returning and that Ivars clam chowder and a bison meatloaf will debut. I'm told that biscuits and gravy and pancakes will be on the breakfast menu.


Oh boy! BUFFALOAF!


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## sunchaser (Mar 26, 2009)

PetalumaLoco said:


> ez223 said:
> 
> 
> > For those interested, in approximately early June, the Empire Builder and the Crescent will be upgrading their dining car menus a bit. Some more regional, but unique to that train, items will be added.
> ...



(imitating Homer Simpson) mmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!! Buffaloaf!!!!! 

Any word on menu changes for CZ or CS?


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## guest lsa (Mar 26, 2009)

ez223 said:


> For those interested, in approximately early June, the Empire Builder and the Crescent will be upgrading their dining car menus a bit. Some more regional, but unique to that train, items will be added.
> I know that on the EB, salmon and catfish are returning and that Ivars clam chowder and a bison meatloaf will debut. I'm told that biscuits and gravy and pancakes will be on the breakfast menu.


biscuits and gravy for breakfast ? ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww that will be one thing I wil not be ordering of the menu!


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## Upstate (Mar 26, 2009)

guest lsa said:


> biscuits and gravy for breakfast ? ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww that will be one thing I wil not be ordering of the menu!


Biscuits and gravy for breakfast is good eating. I am sure that Amtrak will completely mess it up though.


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