# Sunset East of New Orleans: Kiss of Death?



## rtabern (Dec 16, 2006)

Ok, up until now I've had faith the Sunset will run again to Orlando. I was hoping it would because I was looking forward to ride it for the first time -- in fact, I had tickets to go from Orlando to LA in December 2005, and got that trip re-funded.

Anyhow, I always thought they would restore it... until NOW. Why?

Well, I was on the Empire Builder today between Chicago and Milwaukee. They seemed to put up more posters around the train (you know, the ones in the lounge car and at the bottom of the sleepers and coaches that always seem to get swiped). Anyhow, the Sunset posters I had seen up until this point, had all said "Orlando to Los Angeles". Well, the new version says "Los Angeles to New Orleans"... still with the same picture of the train going through the orange grove.

Just a subtle thing, but something I noticed. WHY print up new posters like that if they are planning to restore service anytime soon?

Kinda sad.


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## eliyahu (Dec 16, 2006)

rtabern said:


> Well, I was on the Empire Builder today between Chicago and Milwaukee. They seemed to put up more posters around the train (you know, the ones in the lounge car and at the bottom of the sleepers and coaches that always seem to get swiped). Anyhow, the Sunset posters I had seen up until this point, had all said "Orlando to Los Angeles". Well, the new version says "Los Angeles to New Orleans"... still with the same picture of the train going through the orange grove.
> Just a subtle thing, but something I noticed. WHY print up new posters like that if they are planning to restore service anytime soon?


i've noticed this as well (in chicago), and there are other subtle changes as well. for example, if you look in october's system timetable, they start tabulating the mileage of the route from new orleans instead of orlando as it was in the previous timetable. the timecards in stations across the US also now no longer include orlando and jacksonville as prominent "cities served" on the front cover.

of course, i could also just be a little paranoid here.

whether or not the sunset itself is ever extended back to florida isn't a huge interest for me personally, but if not, amtrak really needs to connect florida to points west with something more efficient than the crescent all the way up in DC. if i want to travel to orlando today, amtrak actually suggests i head up to chicago, down to washington, and catch one of the silver service trains. i think i'll catch a silver aircraft instead.

this is a massive hole in the national network -- and actually, a gulf coast day train would be a great addition to the network if there are reasonable connections in NOL and/or JAX. or (although still a little inconvenient), a new route from ATL to JAX and points south. the truth is that local traffic in the panhandle will always be light with I-10 offering faster travel than anything amtrak/CSXT can offer, but a gulf coast train reopens the southwestern US, texas, and hey, even memphis and mississippi to florida vacations via rail.

i wonder if there is anything we can actually do to effect change along these lines other than sending letters to amtrak or sending monies into NARP's coffers. suggestions anyone? here in texas, a grassroots organization saved the texas eagle when no one else was interested. perhaps a similar model here can restore gulf coast service, and in so doing, reconnect the southern half of the US back to florida via passenger rail.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx


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## caravanman (Dec 17, 2006)

I have probably missed quite a few posts on the New Orleans to Orlando train service... but I simply don't understand why America has still to repair a rail line after such a long time?

Is it simply that there is no great demand for rail freight between NOL to JAX, and it's not worth the cost of repair, or is it the damamage done was so severe, that the technical difficulties are too great?

Ed B)


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## AmtrakWPK (Dec 17, 2006)

THE RAIL LINE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY REPAIRED OR REBUILT, 100%, FOR MANY MONTHS NOW. Amtrak has been grossly abusing the "excuse" that the stations haven't been restored to justify not resuming service, but that is a bogus excuse, because there are "station stops" in the Amtrak system that are nothing more than a short patch of level ground where a passenger can climb on or off of a train. The cause of the continuing gap in service by Sunset between New Orleans and Orlando is a lack of moral fiber on the part of Amtrak administration. It is NOT because the rails remain broken. From one side of Amtrak's corporate "mouth" we hear "Sunset east of NOL has NOT been cancelled". From the other side of that corporate mouth come the route advertisements mentioned in these recent posts, which clearly have removed mention of anything east of NOL. Amtrak administration's pants are on fire and their noses are growing very long indeed.


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## George Harris (Dec 17, 2006)

caravanman said:


> I have probably missed quite a few posts on the New Orleans to Orlando train service... but I simply don't understand why America has still to repair a rail line after such a long time?Is it simply that there is no great demand for rail freight between NOL to JAX, and it's not worth the cost of repair, or is it the damamage done was so severe, that the technical difficulties are too great?
> 
> Ed B)


CSX, the private railroad corporation that owns the rail line (built originally by corporate predecessors in the 1880's) has completely repaired the rail line at a cost of about $300,000,000 of their own and insurance company money with no government assistance whatsoever. It has been fully restored since sometime in March, 2006. According to some people, it is in better condition than it has ever been. The repairs are by no means temporary, either. The longest bridge knocked out, about two miles long at Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, was replaced with new concrete girders. It was in fact reopened about the same time the state got around to letting the contract for the design and replacement of the parallel highway bridge, which will probably be another year to completion.

One of the excuses used by Amtrak was that CSX had sold the Mobile station and property to a developer. In was reported in the Mobile paper that the sale had a provision that the developer provide replacement station facilities.

The blame for lack of restoration lies entirely with Amtrak.

George


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2006)

caravanman said:


> I have probably missed quite a few posts on the New Orleans to Orlando train service... but I simply don't understand why America has still to repair a rail line after such a long time?Is it simply that there is no great demand for rail freight between NOL to JAX, and it's not worth the cost of repair, or is it the damamage done was so severe, that the technical difficulties are too great?
> 
> Ed B)





George Harris said:


> CSX, the private railroad corporation that owns the rail line (built originally by corporate predecessors in the 1880's) has completely repaired the rail line at a cost of about $300,000,000 of their own and insurance company money with no government assistance whatsoever. It has been fully restored since sometime in March, 2006. According to some people, it is in better condition than it has ever been. The repairs are by no means temporary, either. The longest bridge knocked out, about two miles long at Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, was replaced with new concrete girders. It was in fact reopened about the same time the state got around to letting the contract for the design and replacement of the parallel highway bridge, which will probably be another year to completion.
> One of the excuses used by Amtrak was that CSX had sold the Mobile station and property to a developer. In was reported in the Mobile paper that the sale had a provision that the developer provide replacement station facilities.




Well George, you seem to make a great ombudsman for rail passengers rights. Do you think there is someone in Washington that would commit to an answer one way or another as to whether the Sunset will run (or busses) or will the City continue on to Jacksonville (which seems to make more sense.?) I've personally witnessed too many people rudely awakened at 3 a.m. or later in New Orleans only to be told that #2 was terminating in NOLA and the bus was your only choice to go further east. Is there not an Amtrak PR Department that has ANYONE who will give a definitive answer. I'm sure if such a person exists that you might know who he/she might be. Someone who has paid premium dollars for first class service deserves better service; I strongly believe that all the overtime and added expense (busses, refunds, crew's layover in New Orleans for two or more days) is a big factor in all the foot dragging on the eastern end of the Sunset.



George Harris said:


> The blame for lack of restoration lies entirely with Amtrak.
> George


(edited to try to fix who was being quoted on what and from where -AmtrakWPK)


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## battalion51 (Dec 17, 2006)

The problem given the current SB schedule is that it takes approximately 20 hours to go from NOL to ORL. Right not the CONO arrives in NOL at 3:30. After servicing and fueling they would be leaving NOL around 4:30. That puts arrival in Orlando at the ever popular Midnight. Assuming that arrival time it'd take another hour to hour and a half to deadhead back to Sanford. Crew's off duty at approximately 1:30. Get the train in for servicing and then back in the yard at around 10-11. That's an awfully rough schedule for a crew. There's also the fact that the equipment would have been on the road for approximately four (from Eagle) to six days (Sunset Ltd). That's a pretty long time to be on the road without getting service, and a pretty short time to service it and turn it around.


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## caravanman (Dec 17, 2006)

It seems clear that the track repairs have been done, and the rails join up again.. at least we know now it is an Amtrak issue, rather than a Katrina issue.

Ed B)


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## gswager (Dec 17, 2006)

I think the biggest factor is freight congestion between NOL and Florida. It's so late, even 1 or 2 days late, and Amtrak doesn't want to continue it. Also Amtrak doesn't have enough spare trainsets to continue to make up the tardy schedule.


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## battalion51 (Dec 17, 2006)

This becomes an issue espeially if the Cardinal returns to using Superliner trainsets.


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## George Harris (Dec 17, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> The problem given the current SB schedule is that it takes approximately 20 hours to go from NOL to ORL. Right not the CONO arrives in NOL at 3:30. After servicing and fueling they would be leaving NOL around 4:30. That puts arrival in Orlando at the ever popular Midnight.


I think you must have somehow plugged in an extra 12 hours.

If you go back to an early afternoon departure, you have just about reconstituted the Gulf Wind, but somewhat slower. Looking at the 2004 schedule:

17 hours New Orleans to Jacksonville, about the same in both directions

3h15m Jacksonville to Orlando, again about the same in both directions.

So, yes to 20 hours.

5:00 pm leave New Orleans

8:50 pm leave Mobile AL (CST)

7:00 am leave Tallahassee (EST)

11:00 am arrive Jacksonville

11:30 am leave Jacksonville

2:45 pm arrive Orlando

3:15 pm leave Orlando

6:30 pm arrive Jacksonville

7:00 pm leave Jacksonville

10:20 pm leave Tallahassee (EST)

6:30 am leave Mobile AL (CST)

11:00 amarrive New Orleans

This is obviously not a practical same day turn around at Orlando, so why not go back to running the train to Miami? This gives you a nice Jacksonville to Miami day train coupled with a decent but somewhat slow night train betweeen Jacksonville and New Orleans that also serves the Mississippi Gulf Coast at decent hours. For a Chicago to Florida train, compared to the City of Miami, we should probably not even talk about it. It would be just short of 48 hours Chicago to Miami. That time was beat in the 1920's.

As to the congestion between Jacksonville and New Orleans: At the least, a few more sidings are needed between Flomaton and Tallahassee, and signals so that they could run faster than 59 mph through here would also help.

George


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## AlanB (Dec 17, 2006)

battalion51 said:


> This becomes an issue espeially if the Cardinal returns to using Superliner trainsets.


Hardly, Amtrak has more Superliner cars back in service now than it did back when they were still running the Sunset full length and the Cardinal with Superliners. And with Diner Lite coming online, that would solve the issue of not having enough diners/lounges to go around, as it wouldn't matter any more. That was where they used to run short before, was on the diners and lounges.


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## AlanB (Dec 17, 2006)

George Harris said:


> If you go back to an early afternoon departure, you have jsut about reconstituted the Gulf Wind, but somewhat slower. Looking at the 2004 schedule:
> 17 hours New Orleans to Jacksonville, about the same in both directions
> 
> 34h15m Jacksonville to Orlando, again about the same in both directions.
> ...


And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.

So they might actually be able to trim some of the fat off that schedule if need be.


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## George Harris (Dec 17, 2006)

AlanB said:


> And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.
> So they might actually be able to trim some of the fat off that schedule if need be.


True. The Gulf Wind in the 50's was abpit 15 or 16 hours NO to Jax, and the speed limits on large segments of the ex L&N part were lower then than they are now. (never more than 70 mph anywhere, and either 55 mph or 50 mph east of Flomaton, and most of the gulf coast drawbridges were limited to 15 mph.)


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## AmtrakWPK (Dec 17, 2006)

Bottom line seems to be that Amtrak doesn't want to do it, isn't interested in doing it, and is more than willing to lie about it to everybody in order to keep from running Sunset again east of NOL. Somehow we need a big enough political stink about it (which it seems to me that the cities and towns - and the associated state governments- and all of those newspapers and tv stations serving those places, which are now NOT being served by Sunset that WERE being served by it SHOULD be able and willing to do), that Amtrak cannot get away with continuing to shovel the fertilizer through the PR department to all of us while also saying "What fertilizer?" Because right now, fertilizer seems to be what they're selling us.


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## eliyahu (Dec 18, 2006)

AmtrakWPK said:


> Bottom line seems to be that Amtrak doesn't want to do it, isn't interested in doing it, and is more than willing to lie about it to everybody in order to keep from running Sunset again east of NOL. Somehow we need a big enough political stink about it (which it seems to me that the cities and towns - and the associated state governments- and all of those newspapers and tv stations serving those places, which are now NOT being served by Sunset that WERE being served by it SHOULD be able and willing to do), that Amtrak cannot get away with continuing to shovel the fertilizer through the PR department to all of us while also saying "What fertilizer?" Because right now, fertilizer seems to be what they're selling us.


but given previous schedules for the sunset along the panhandle, and the lack of local traffic for intrastate travel, can we reasonably expect online communities to push for its restoration? even mobile hasn't pushed very hard for renewed service along these lines. perhaps what is needed here is a new daytime run connecting through to JAX, ORL, or MIA with focus on compressing the schedule to be as fast as possible. shaving an hour here and there could bring big dividends in bringing customers to such a train since your biggest competition here isn't air travel so much as I-10, which is far faster and more convenient than the old sunset carding.

i suppose that's why i've remained negative in believing sufficient pressure would be brought to bear on amtrak and the florida congressional delegation. unlike the texas eagle, which has been reasonably frequented by texans for travel to fort worth, and also used as an additional local in illinois, this section of the sunset limited never really generated much local traffic within the panhandle, or even from florida to NOL. so i don't really see the equivalent of TEMPO arising from the dust.

can you think of how customers outside florida/alabama/NOL can bring their message that restoration of rail travel from NOL to florida brings potential traffic from the southwest that just is going elsewhere at the moment? perhaps that story isn't backed up by amtrak's experts? or am i offbase (hopefully) in saying online communities in the panhandle aren't bringing pressure to bear here?

-- eliyahu

austin, tx


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## eliyahu (Dec 18, 2006)

AlanB said:


> And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.
> So they might actually be able to trim some of the fat off that schedule if need be.


alan: let's assume for the moment that such a reconstituted gulf wind was indeed in the offing. based on what little information is available about the rebuilt mainline, how much time do you think could be shaved here? within texas, few people really consider the sunset a viable form for transport east of san antonio given the massive amount of padding in the schedule (fifteen hours to cover a little over 550 miles from SAS to NOL?!) when I-10 and US90 offers much quicker and convenient travel.

i very much want to see this happen, if only for selfish reasons that would enable us to take the trains to florida. but with good road and unreliable OTP -- yes, i know we've been doing well lately on the sunset, but nonetheless -- rail is a hard story to sell. better timekeeping and a faster carding, though, could help to get folks back on the rails along the gulf coast. even a train with just amfleet coaches offering fair connections to the CoNO, SL, and crescent in NOL could be a winner, but travel time is vital to sell in the southern travel market.

-- eliyahu

austin, tx


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## frj1983 (Dec 18, 2006)

I'm not sure if I will be saying this in the right way: but I sometimes wonder if Amtrak is weary of dealing with CSX and doesn't want to get in bed with them again(especially on this route). Remember, the Sunset runs on two of Amtrak's least friendly and least dependable railroad companies...UP and CSX. Is it possible that Amtrak looks at the heavy amount of traffic on CSX and does't want to deal with the whole issue??

Obviously something is holding them back...and it may be a combination of things. We just don't know what. How I would love to be a mouse in the corner at Amtrak HQ when routing discussions are going on!!


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## AlanB (Dec 18, 2006)

eliyahu said:


> AlanB said:
> 
> 
> > And let's not forget that part of the padding and fluff in that schedule isn't because of CSX screwing the train, it's to help recover from the UP disasters.
> ...


I'm hardly the best expert on what would be possible in terms of speeding things up. However, IIRC, prior to the huge amounts of padding inserted into the schedule 4 or 5 years ago, Amtrak used to card the Sunset from ORL to NOL about 2 hours faster than it was running prior to Katrina. Back in 2000 it use to leave Orlando at 5:50 PM and get to NOL at 11:45 AM, for a run time of just under 18 hours. Just prior to Katrina it was leaving ORL at 1:45 PM and getting into NOL at 9:20 AM, for a run time of 19 1/2 hours.


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## eliyahu (Dec 18, 2006)

AlanB said:


> I'm hardly the best expert on what would be possible in terms of speeding things up. However, IIRC, prior to the huge amounts of padding inserted into the schedule 4 or 5 years ago, Amtrak used to card the Sunset from ORL to NOL about 2 hours faster than it was running prior to Katrina. Back in 2000 it use to leave Orlando at 5:50 PM and get to NOL at 11:45 AM, for a run time of just under 18 hours. Just prior to Katrina it was leaving ORL at 1:45 PM and getting into NOL at 9:20 AM, for a run time of 19 1/2 hours.


hmmm. well, i suppose under eighteen hours is better than nearly twenty, but it would only take me around ten hours to drive that distance, and that's being conservative. of course, there are other stops along the way here that could attract traffic from the west other than just orlando: biloxi, gulfport, pensacola, etc.

how has rail fared in the past when driving offered such a huge time advantage? for overnight runs between major endpoints i could see a different story, but for a daytrain?

-- eliyahu

austin, tx


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## jphjaxfl (Dec 18, 2006)

If Amtrak reinstates service between New Orleans and Orlando, it should be daily service with a schedule that can be maintained on a timely basis. Unfortunately in recent years, the tri weekly Sunset has not been anywhere near reliable. I have used the train a number of times between Jacksonville and New Orleans. An overnight train from Jacksonville to New Orleans and vis versa is preferable and could attract some business travelers, if it was reliable. The train should be scheduled to connect with both the City of New Orleans and the Sunset. There were a lot of passengers connecting with CNO from Florida to Chicago and vv when the schedule made a decent connection. The State of Florida needs to provide some funding for Amtrak service as it generates a lot of tourist dollars that are spent in the state.


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## Inman yards-ATL (Dec 18, 2006)

jphjaxfl said:


> If Amtrak reinstates service between New Orleans and Orlando, it should be daily service with a schedule that can be maintained on a timely basis. Unfortunately in recent years, the tri weekly Sunset has not been anywhere near reliable. I have used the train a number of times between Jacksonville and New Orleans. An overnight train from Jacksonville to New Orleans and vis versa is preferable and could attract some business travelers, if it was reliable. The train should be scheduled to connect with both the City of New Orleans and the Sunset. There were a lot of passengers connecting with CNO from Florida to Chicago and vv when the schedule made a decent connection. The State of Florida needs to provide some funding for Amtrak service as it generates a lot of tourist dollars that are spent in the state.


Everybody in FL,AL,MS and LA needs to send a letter to your US congressman or Senator! in support of adding the SL back between NO and Orl!


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## George Harris (Dec 18, 2006)

the problem with speeding up the Sunset is the somewhat round about way the tracks run. Also, for people not interested in going to New Orleans itself, you can make it by bus between Houston and Mississippi Gulf Coast points and even Mobile faster than the train can get you to New Orleans. Then there is the 103 miles by rail between Mobile and Pensacola due to going up to Flomaton AL before turning south versus about 55 miles by I-10. And, of course if you are going between New Orleans and Orlando you do not go to Jacksonville on the way, but the train does.

However, even with all these negatives, when the operation was realonably dependable the train carried a reasonably good ridership.

Back to the Gulf Wind: The following is from 1956:

Eastbound

5:30 pm Lv New Orleans

9:10 pm Lv Mobile

12:03 am Lv Pensacola (CST)

5:45 am Ar Tallahassee (EST)

9:15 am Ar Jacksonville (Union Station - not Amtrak's)

15 hours 45 minutes for 617 miles, and that includes switching at three locations.

The train left New Orleans combined with the Piedmont Limited and was divided at Flomaton AL. Diners were detached at Mobile and added at Tallahassee, and we are talking about mid train, not tacked on the end because this train carried a round end observation.

Westbound

5:15 pm Lv Jacksonville

8:35 pm Lv Tallahassee (EST)

12:30 am Ar Pensacola (CST)

3:20 am Ar Mobile

7:20 am Ar New Orleans

15 hours 5 minutes, again with switching at three locations. Between Flomaton and New Orleans it was combined with the Piedmont Limited again. Sometime later, the westbound train arriving in New Orleans was actually three trains, the Gulf Wind, the Piedmont Limited from Atlanta and New York, and the Pan American from Cincinatti, a situation that lasted all the way up until Amtak day.

With addition of enough new sidings to avoid lengthy delays due to freight trains, this run time should be achievable today.

George


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## battalion51 (Dec 18, 2006)

George, do you happen to know what the MSP was between Tallahassee and Flomaton was? I'm almost willing to bet it's a lot higher than the 59 MPH the Tallahassee (west of TLH), P&A, and P&D Subs are rated for these days.


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## Trogdor (Dec 18, 2006)

Kinda off the topic of this thread, but I'm curious to know: How'd you ride the Empire Builder between Chicago and Milwaukee?


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## George Harris (Dec 18, 2006)

I don't have an old employee timetable for the MNO&P division, but I am reasonably sure that the speed limit Flomaton to Chattahoochie was 55 mph. This was the normal L&N passenger trian speed limit on non-signaled lines. In fact, before WW2, it was the maximum L&N speed limit on any line. With the push for speed with the South Wind, Dixie Flagler, Georgian, Humming Bird, the speed limit on the major mains was raised to 70 mph, and they actually at one time planned to go to 80 mph, but that seemed to have been dropped with the early 50's drop off in passenger loadings. I know for certain that in the 50's early 60's 55 mph was the limit on the Memphis line and the original N&D through Columbia TN. With the 55 mph passenger limit, the frieght limit was 40 mph. When the signaled mains went to 70 mph, the speed limit for freights became 45 mph, and later, by the early 60's 50 mph with all piggyback trains allowed 60 mph. The L&N was never a high speed railroad. Some of the passenger schedules were quite tight, and I doubt they could be consistenetly made without fudging on the speeds. For example, the Memphis section of the Pan averaged 42 mph between Bowling Green KY and Memphis with quite a few stops, on a line with a couple of 15 mph bridges, and a 55 mph maximum limit, and 20 mph within Memphis itself.


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## AmtrakWPK (Dec 18, 2006)

jphjaxfl said:


> If Amtrak reinstates service between New Orleans and Orlando, it should be daily service with a schedule that can be maintained on a timely basis. ... An overnight train from Jacksonville to New Orleans and vis versa is preferable and could attract some business travelers, if it was reliable. The train should be scheduled to connect with both the City of New Orleans and the Sunset.


Pardon the slightly abridged quote, but I am in FULL agreement with the concept. Lacking a fully operational Sunset through to Orlando, a daily NOL-JAX , JAX-NOL would be wonderful if it could arrive in Jax prior to the southboard Silvers (well, after the Meteor, anyway, since I think it still has a bus bridge from Orlando over to Tampa) and leave after the northbound Silvers, or at least after the Meteor, which, again I think has a bus bridge from Tampa. This would provide a daily connection to and from the east coast trains, both south and northbound. And the south transcon route would be viable again. And it would provide a daily path from the Silvers to and from Chicago if the schedules could be massaged a bit. As for Florida politicians, good luck, at least on the national level. Nelson is rabidly anti-Amtrak and so is Mica, l believe. I dunno about the others.


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## AlanB (Dec 19, 2006)

Lest anyone think that Amtrak is actually saving money by not running the Sunset east of NOL, let me throw out a few figures that I compiled while I was working up the Empire Builder numbers that I quoted in another thread.

In Fiscal 2005 where Amtrak understandably had to cut service for the last month of the year, here are the loses due to that curtailment from the 2004 Fiscal numbers. A large part of the loss here was also due to the horrible UP time keeping that summer, when more than 1 train arrived more than 24 hours late.

Revenue down $1.7M YTD, September only down $398,525

Ridership down 15,078 YTD, September only down 2,384

In 2006 Fiscal, where Amtrak really only needed to cut the service for the first 5 months of the fiscal year, but instead kept it curtailed for the entire year, here are the losses by comparison to fiscal 2005.

Revenue down $4.1 Million

Ridership down 29,488

And just in case anyone was wondering, not running east of NOL hasn't decreased Amtrak's losses on that train either. The FRA Contrabution, which is what the FRA estimates the Federal Government is paying to run the service, increased by over $300,000 dollars in 2006. So not running the train east of NOL, isn't saving Amtrak any money!


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## Guest_Had8ley_* (Dec 20, 2006)

AlanB said:


> Lest anyone think that Amtrak is actually saving money by not running the Sunset east of NOL, let me throw out a few figures that I compiled while I was working up the Empire Builder numbers that I quoted in another thread.
> In Fiscal 2005 where Amtrak understandably had to cut service for the last month of the year, here are the loses due to that curtailment from the 2004 Fiscal numbers. A large part of the loss here was also due to the horrible UP time keeping that summer, when more than 1 train arrived more than 24 hours late.
> 
> Revenue down $1.7M YTD, September only down $398,525
> ...



Alan;

Just for the sake of those who don't know how managers run railroads these days here's a little insight into WHY I feel the Sunset still dies in NOL. The term that EVERY railroad manager has learned to use is, "Not on my budget you won't !#$%" In other words the added expenses have to show up on somebody's bottom line irregardless of the loss of revenue or number of passengers lost. They could run the train without a revenue passenger but if a re-crew happens the home office is burning the phone lines up wanting to know who they could hang with the added expense. Just ask any freight railroad manager that is working in the field~ my son is one of them.


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## Palmland (Dec 20, 2006)

While Orlando or Miami would be nice, realistically the crew and equipment issues would make it more of a long shot to ever happen. Why not do what the Gulf Wind did - run just to Jacksonville.

By adusting the Silver Star schedule a little, it could connect with the Gulf Wind for south Florida. Since the CONO now lays over almost 24 hours in NO, I think this would mean only one additional set of equipment and crews.


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## battalion51 (Dec 20, 2006)

The reason why you don't stop at JAX is exactly what you said, equipment issues. Sanford is a Superliner base that has a large number of facilities and great craftsmen to work on Superliner equipment. If you want anyone handling that equipment its Sanford.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2006)

Has anyone else noticed that amtrak.com won't book you from LAX to NOL on the Sunset LTD? It takes you up on the Cheif and down on the City of New Orleans. You can however book into the station before NOL.


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## Trogdor (Dec 20, 2006)

Guest said:


> Has anyone else noticed that amtrak.com won't book you from LAX to NOL on the Sunset LTD? It takes you up on the Cheif and down on the City of New Orleans. You can however book into the station before NOL.


It works for me just fine. You have to make sure that your departure date is one of the three days per week that the Sunset Limited will be operating. Otherwise, it will default to the 4-59 connection.


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## lepearso (Dec 21, 2006)

Has anyone read the January 2007 issue of _Trains_ magazine? If not, look on page 31. It says that "Amtrak government affairs officials on Oct. 20" proposed a supplemental train to serve the New-Orleans-Orlando route on a four-day-per-week schedule opposite the Sunset Limited. This is the same idea behind the Hoosier State supplementing the Cardinal between Chicago and Indianapolis.

First of all, this is the first I have heard on this idea. Secondly, I really like to sound of it. Third, I wonder how serious they really are.

They may be on to something good, if only they'll pursue the idea and not just leave it on the table.


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## rtabern (Dec 21, 2006)

rmadisonwi said:


> Kinda off the topic of this thread, but I'm curious to know: How'd you ride the Empire Builder between Chicago and Milwaukee?


Well, you have to buy a ticket from Chicago to Columbus, WI... as you probably know... they won't let you buy a ticket on 7/27/807 from Chicago to Milwaukee. BUT if the Builder is not very full and coach prices are in their first 'bucket'... you can get a CHI-CBS coach ticket for around $21 (the same cost of the Hiawatha).

Of course, if the 'bucket' is high, it doesn't make much sense to do it because you could be paying double.

Anyhow, you board in Chicago... then get off in Milwaukee (it's a smoke-stop and you have 15 minutes there... so plenty of time to get off the train). I have done this several times now and every conductor and coach attendant I've talked to is completely fine with it, even thought again yes, you can't 'officially' do it.

Actually, on several trips, other passengers have done the same. (check for MKE placecards above the seats!)

The advantages? Well, I am a AGR Select Plus member so I get to use/board via the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago... and avoid the long times you sometimes get with the Hiawatha at Gate B there. And if it's the same prices as the Hiawatha... why not enjoy the snack bar and lounge car... even if it's just for 1 1/2 hours? Right? I think the Superliners are much better than the single-level CHI-MKE coaches.


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## AlanB (Dec 21, 2006)

rtabern said:


> The advantages? Well, I am a AGR Select Plus member so I get to use/board via the Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago... and avoid the long times you sometimes get with the Hiawatha at Gate B there. And if it's the same prices as the Hiawatha... why not enjoy the snack bar and lounge car... even if it's just for 1 1/2 hours? Right?


That assumes that you actually get a lounge attendant that knows the rules. I've read several reports from Select + members who were denied entry into the Metro Lounge in CHI, because the attendant wasn't properly trained. One person even had his Select + booklet with him and the attendant rudely refused to look at it and pointed out to him that his card says "Club Acela" on it and that this wasn't a Club Acela and therefore she was right in denying him entry.


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## Guest_Ben_* (Dec 22, 2006)

I unfortunately don't subscribe to Trains magazine, but could someone summarize the Sunset article and the article about UP's Sunset Route getting better? It would be much appreciated, thanks.


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## yarrow (Dec 23, 2006)

this is probably not relevant to the discussion but we sent for some free posters and route guides from the "great american stations" website(we homeschool our kids and use them for decorating). really quality posters and system map by the way. anyway we also got from them some wonderful folders of postcards(all for free)with miniatures of the posters they have on trains. these cards are a lot nicer than those sold on the trains. the sunset limited card in the set still says l.a. to orlando. maybe they are old cards but they are sent out as current marketing material.


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## Sam Damon (Dec 30, 2006)

Perhaps this is the time to start writing letters to the editor about "the phantom train from New Orleans to Orlando." Wasn't it showing up in Amtrak's computer for a while?

When all else fails, turning the bureaucrats into laughing stocks is about the only option you've got. Being an object of ridicule is no fun at all.


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## Donnie (Jan 7, 2007)

You are forgetting that Congress used taxpayer money in 2006 to purchase the CSX across Mississippi in order to scrap it and turn it into a highway. FEMA is presently running a ferry boat (or it was, until it broke down), at the price of $30 per car of (you guessed it) taxpayer money. The alternative rail route involves going from New Orleans to Meridian, MS, and would be quite convoluted and time-consuming. Most shippers in the know realize that there is no longer a viable route across the gulf coast, and they are moving their operations (if they can) to other states and or shifting their products to barge lines or trucks.

What nobody wants to admit is that, except for casinos, the Gulf Coast is not a high priority for rebuilding anyway. Those of us who live here can tell you that this is just one piece of a vast government boondoggle.


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## AlanB (Jan 7, 2007)

Donnie said:


> You are forgetting that Congress used taxpayer money in 2006 to purchase the CSX across Mississippi in order to scrap it and turn it into a highway. FEMA is presently running a ferry boat (or it was, until it broke down), at the price of $30 per car of (you guessed it) taxpayer money. The alternative rail route involves going from New Orleans to Meridian, MS, and would be quite convoluted and time-consuming. Most shippers in the know realize that there is no longer a viable route across the gulf coast, and they are moving their operations (if they can) to other states and or shifting their products to barge lines or trucks.
> What nobody wants to admit is that, except for casinos, the Gulf Coast is not a high priority for rebuilding anyway. Those of us who live here can tell you that this is just one piece of a vast government boondoggle.


Senator Lott wanted to do that, but I don't believe that the money actually got appropriated. AFAIK CSX still owns that line and with the Dems now in control of Congress, I'm pretty sure that Senator Lott's idea is dead.


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## George Harris (Jan 8, 2007)

Donnie said:


> You are forgetting that Congress used taxpayer money in 2006 to purchase the CSX across Mississippi in order to scrap it and turn it into a highway. FEMA is presently running a ferry boat (or it was, until it broke down), at the price of $30 per car of (you guessed it) taxpayer money. The alternative rail route involves going from New Orleans to Meridian, MS, and would be quite convoluted and time-consuming. Most shippers in the know realize that there is no longer a viable route across the gulf coast, and they are moving their operations (if they can) to other states and or shifting their products to barge lines or trucks.
> What nobody wants to admit is that, except for casinos, the Gulf Coast is not a high priority for rebuilding anyway. Those of us who live here can tell you that this is just one piece of a vast government boondoggle.


I don't know where this person got his "information" but almost all of it is wrong.

1. The government purchase of the right of way did not go through.

2. The ferry boat: Know nothing about this one. However even though US 90 is cut at Bay St. Louis and Biloxi, and maybe a few other places, I-10 is functional.

3. The purchase of the rail route along the gulf coast included construction a new line some 10 to 20 miles inland that connected back up to the existing track in the vicinity of the Louisiana and Alabama state lines.. Also, the existing alternate route dose not go to Meridian, but only as far a sHattiesburg, and then down the IC, ex GM&N main to Mobile. Yes, quie a bit of work would be necessary to get thins secondary line up to a good quality maine line standard.

4. The rail route along teh Gulf Coast IS viable, in fact is alive and well, and shippers "in the know" do know that. As has been said multiple times already, the line has been completely restored its pre hurricane condition or better.

5. Rebuilding not a priority? Argue that with the people who live there. It ain't the casinos, even though they do have political clout. The Gulf air would breathe better if all the casino barges were hauled out to sea about a hundred miles and sunk so far as I am concerned.

6. He says he lives there. Where?

George


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## Donnie From Ocean Springs (Jan 9, 2007)

Hopefully you are correct about the deal not going thru, but that is news to us. The planning funds are in the budget that the last congress just passed. There was no money promised for the building of a new rail line, or for the upgrade of the existing Hattiesburg line, only money to take out the CSX.

Both the Mississippi Senators and the state legislature sold out to the casino interests, and promised the CSX right of way as an access route to the new on-land casinos, some of which are already under construction.

I agree with you, there is no need for gambling anywhere except perhaps Atlantic City and Vegas. It is a disaster, both to the personal lives of those who are addicted to it, and to the governments who reap the "windfall" of the tax money. But, its a fact of life, and as such,


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## Donnie (Jan 9, 2007)

Oops, hit the button to quick.

Meant to say also that CSX has been quoted as saying they will not rebuild the New Orleans to Mobile line again. It is extremely vulnerable to weather, as you can see by looking at a map. It is extremely high maintenance.

In fact, with the erosion of the barrier islands, in many places the roadbed is actually the first line of defense against tidal surges. Those who lived "in front" of the railroad got flooded much worse than those who lived "behind" it. Of course part of that is just a function of being farther from the brunt of the storm, but the railroad absorbed some of the hit as well.

If and when the next storm hits, the line is going to be abandoned or split into short line segments anyway. If Mississippi wants to hang their hat on gambling, it's sad, but the high paying industry and manufacturing jobs are bound and determined to go offshore the way things are headed, so whadda'ya need a railroad for anyway. The container trucks just back up to the dock, and away to Wal-Mart down the interstate they go, full of all that Chinese-made stuff.


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## George Harris (Jan 15, 2007)

Donnie said:


> Meant to say also that CSX has been quoted as saying they will not rebuild the New Orleans to Mobile line again. It is extremely vulnerable to weather, as you can see by looking at a map. It is extremely high maintenance.


Do you have a reference on this? I would love to know who said it when. It is also worth remembering that management can change their minds. Their main problem with abandoning this line is lack of good alternative routes. I have seen enough pictures of the rebuilt facilities to be unconvinced that they considered the work temporary or short term. A lot of the local casino and like interests probably do wish the railroad would go away, as you don't need a railroad to haul money. They will probably talk like it is a foregone conclusion. But then again, buy a house that is near a railroad and the realtor will probably tell you that the railroad is going away in a few years so you will believe that you will have less whistle noise to listen to as time goes on. The railroad might have other thoughts altogether.

As to high maintenance: Yes, somewhat. You do have about 5 drawbridges and a lot of road crossings, but otherwise the railroad is fairly straight and flat so fuel costs should be low to compensate for that, in part if not totally. Most of if not all of the bridges are now concrete and steel, so the long term problem they had with low capacity long timber trestles is gone. All alternative routes include significant lengths of running on somebody else's railroad. The NS main, the only likely alternate out of New Orleans, would need quite a bit of work to have the capacity to handle the CSX traffic without significant delay to everything, and a lot of delays is what they did have while the CSX coast line was out of service.

George


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## Save Our Trains Michigan (Jan 16, 2007)

This is what we need to due to try to get the Sunset LTD back running east.

1st. Let's not blame Amtrak

2nd. We need to make this issue public by contacting our elected officials in the area that the Sunset ran before the storm.This will put a lot of pressure on the issue remember it only takes around 4 phone calls in 1 day to get an elected officials to act on the issue.

I will be working on a flier that will go out into the public sometime this week for restoring the Sunset LTD back east.

This issue won't be resolved overnight it might take months.


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## AmtrakWPK (Jan 16, 2007)

> 1st. Let's not blame Amtrak


OK. Then who, exactly, was it that decided not to reinstitute service east of NOL? Not CSX. They got the line back rebuilt in good shape in short order. I can't think of any responsible party, *other than Amtrak*, upon whom blame for the footdragging and stonewalling can be placed.

The rest of your post I can agree with. And bless you for whatever you manage to accomplish. But Amtrak DESERVES the blame in this case. And the complaints, and the congressional heat, and the ire of the civic and governmental groups along the route, and the ire of all the would-be passengers that have had to make other arrangements because of Amtrak's intransigence. _*"For whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap." *_


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## JAChooChoo (Jan 17, 2007)

Just a reality check, NOL to Florida was not deemed an essential route in 1971, and did not exist for the next two decades.


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## George Harris (Jan 17, 2007)

As to the "reality check": The route of the Coast Starlight and Texas Eagle were not considered "essential" in 1971. but the Floridian, Texas Chief --> Lone Star, and National Limited were. Somehow by 1978 they lost their essentiality. The Gulf Wind was still running on A-day and the Panhandle residents wanted to keep a train, but did not have the political clout to do so. The point of "essential in 1971" is irrelevant to the discussion.

I think the point of "Let's not blame Amtrak" is to avoid creating an adversarial atmosphere as much as possible to do so, not as an expression of reality. At least that is the way I feel about it. I want to push my senators ablout this as being something that should be done, not to go on a search to find a goat to be taken out and sacrificed.

George


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## VentureForth (Jan 23, 2007)

Here is a sample of a letter that I sent my Senator. Feel free to alter, adjust, modify and sign your own name to it and send it to everyone in Washington (PLEASE NOTE THAT I'M NOT COMPLETELY CONCERNED ABOUT PRECISE DETAILS REGARDING LEGAL ISSUES OR THINGS LIKE THAT. I LET THEM FIGURE THAT SORT OF STUFF OUT):

Dear Honorable Senator ,

I don't know if you serve on any transportation board or not, but I do have a concern with the current state of Amtrak.

Amtrak is a National Passenger Rail Service that brings the United States together, connecting 47 of the 48 contiguous states. Many small communities that have no airline or bus service rely on Amtrak for long distance travel. It is also a proven alternative for long distance travel that is more comfortable than a bus and suitable for most people who refuse to fly in commercial aircraft.

As you may or may not be aware, the Sunset Limited, which does stop in Deming and Lordsburg NM has had disrupted service East of New Orleans since Hurricane Katrina.

It's completely understandable that a natural disaster of such a magnitude could have a terrific impact on railroad service.

But the problem todays is that every excuse that Amtrak has given with regards to providing service to Orlando from New Orleans has been refuted or downright misrepresented.

For example, all of the track between New Orleans and Orlando has been restored since March of '06. Most stations are in a state of good repair, but even for those that may not be, keep in mind that there are several stops along Amtrak's routes that are nothing more than flat dirt.

The Sunset Limited is a critical link to the Gold Coast from the West and should be given the status of flagship service and should be a point of pride of US transcontinental rail service.

I propose that you or a colleague would support a resolution in congress to the effect that:

- Amtrak's Sunset Limited train restores service between New Orleans and Orlando immediately.

- Host railroad operators shall uphold the original intent of the NARP contract and provide Amtrak trains with minimal service disruption and priority sequencing.

Thank you for your time and I hope that you will help Congress find a way to bolster our flailing national railroad system.

Sincerely,


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## TransAtlantic (Jan 23, 2007)

AmtrakWPK said:


> > 1st. Let's not blame Amtrak
> 
> 
> OK. Then who, exactly, was it that decided not to reinstitute service east of NOL? Not CSX. They got the line back rebuilt in good shape in short order. I can't think of any responsible party, *other than Amtrak*, upon whom blame for the footdragging and stonewalling can be placed.
> ...


Given that CSX was sticking it to Amtrak with 12 to 24 hour delays Westbound - and often Eastbound, as well - BEFORE Katrina, and given that some track speeds have not been brought back up since, does it really seem logical that Amtrak would want to continue the Sunset to Florida with trains running so late they likely would have to be turned before Sanford?? You really can't blame Amtrak here - they're trying to establish a reliable service, not a land cruise for people with too much time on their hands!


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## George Harris (Jan 23, 2007)

TransAtlantic said:


> Given that CSX was sticking it to Amtrak with 12 to 24 hour delays Westbound - and often Eastbound, as well - BEFORE Katrina, and given that some track speeds have not been brought back up since, does it really seem logical that Amtrak would want to continue the Sunset to Florida with trains running so late they likely would have to be turned before Sanford?? You really can't blame Amtrak here - they're trying to establish a reliable service, not a land cruise for people with too much time on their hands!


Even if true, this does not relate to using Katrina as an excuse for failure to return the train to service. The Mississippi Gulf Coast trackage is back but the trian is not. That is the main point. Where are these areas where, "some track speeds have not been brought back up"?

The problem areas before were mostly east of Flomaton, to at least Tallahassee. This section of the line is unsignaled, and never has had signals, so is restricted to no more than 59 mph for passenger trains and 49 mph for freights. It also has or did have some very long gaps between long sidings. Twenty plus years ago, the traffic was fairly lights only one or two freights a day, so this was not a problem. The amount of freight jumped significantly after "Family Lines" combination and even more with the huge increases incontainer traffic. A few new long sidings have been built, but more are needed. But, this situation predated the start of the Sunset east, and it did manage to run reasonably on time at first, so it is really an operatioal issue that CSX can and should deal with, and apparently have in other areas now that they are getting their feet held to the fire.

Therefore, the Sunset could be reinstated on something about the same as its pre-Katrina schedule and be expected to operate reasonably on time. The schedule may not have been fast, but it did carry respectable loadings. What is needed is to do what it takes to improve on the previous run time. Some things are not easily changed, but some things could change. With some state assistance from Florida, particularly, to get signals on this line and more sidings between Flomaton and Tallahassee could easily take an hour or more out of the schedule. This work would probably be of sufficient benefit to CSX in their freight operation that in the end it could cost the state nothing.

George


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## Trogdor (Jan 23, 2007)

CSX wasn't delaying Amtrak by 12 to 24 hours, UP was.

CSX was "only" delaying the Sunset Limited about 3 to 5 hours per segment.


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## printman2000 (Jan 23, 2007)

TransAtlantic said:


> Given that CSX was sticking it to Amtrak with 12 to 24 hour delays Westbound - and often Eastbound, as well - BEFORE Katrina, and given that some track speeds have not been brought back up since, does it really seem logical that Amtrak would want to continue the Sunset to Florida with trains running so late they likely would have to be turned before Sanford?? You really can't blame Amtrak here - they're trying to establish a reliable service, not a land cruise for people with too much time on their hands!


If that is the reasoning behind not restoring it, fine. But Amtrak needs to make it known and post the 180 notices.


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## Rafi (Jan 23, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> TransAtlantic said:
> 
> 
> > Given that CSX was sticking it to Amtrak with 12 to 24 hour delays Westbound - and often Eastbound, as well - BEFORE Katrina, and given that some track speeds have not been brought back up since, does it really seem logical that Amtrak would want to continue the Sunset to Florida with trains running so late they likely would have to be turned before Sanford?? You really can't blame Amtrak here - they're trying to establish a reliable service, not a land cruise for people with too much time on their hands!
> ...


I think it's painfully obvious at this point that Amtrak is trying to figure out a better alternative than to just reinstate the Sunset back on its former routing. Here's my theory based on what I know:

I suspect that they are in the midst of trying to identify a new routing for the Sunset to reach Florida as a through-train, which is why they haven't issued the 180 day notice yet. As I understand it, once the 180 day notice is released, Amtrak can't turn around and bring back that route (or the part of that route) without state support. So if there's a chance that they can identify and secure alternative routing, they're holding off on putting out any discontinuance notices.

As for why it's taken this long and we're still waiting for something to happen, my gut feeling is that David Hughes was "encouraged" to wait on starting anything until a new President was named, and Kummant is only now getting his feet wet.

Regardless, I think it's clear that Amtrak is not going to return the Sunset to the former routing in all likelihood, and given the lack of the 180 day notice, I think they're looking for alternatives in the hopes that they can still get the Sunset over to Florida as one train. What the criteria for those alternatives are, I don't know. If all else fails, I think we'll end up seeing an Atlanta-Jacksonville-Orlando (and maybe Miami) train, probably as an overnight branch or connection train to northbound Crescent. (We may also see a LAX-NOL-ATL train, too, so that passengers don't have to stay the night in NOL). An ATL-JAX routing is no stranger to the powers-that-be, and it's been kicked around for over a year now between NARP and Amtrak. If they want to do it right, they'd have two trains each way: one to connect with each Crescent, providing a day train and a night train for Atlanta-area residents.

I could be partially or completely off-base on this, but the above seems like a reasonable estimation of the current state of things regarding the Sunset right now.

-Rafi


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## printman2000 (Jan 23, 2007)

Rafi said:


> I think it's painfully obvious at this point that Amtrak is trying to figure out a better alternative than to just reinstate the Sunset back on its former routing.-Rafi


I am assuming this is just your "hunch" and not any information you have obtained. Is that correct?


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## Rafi (Jan 23, 2007)

printman2000 said:


> Rafi said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's painfully obvious at this point that Amtrak is trying to figure out a better alternative than to just reinstate the Sunset back on its former routing.
> ...


Correct—it's just my hunch. Or rather, just what I've deduced based on what's publicly known. No one's told me that they're looking for an alternate route for the Sunset.

-Rafi


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## PRR 60 (Jan 23, 2007)

Why doesn't Amtrak restart the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans? They do not want to. Why, then, don't they simply call it quits on the route? They do not want to. Let me pose my theory.

As long as Amtrak does not officially abandon the route, Amtrak retains absolute rights to the route. Case in point is the Desert Wind. Once Amtrak walked away from the DW, they lost the absolute rights to run on the UP to and through Las Vegas. When they went to restore service, the UP (entirely within their legal rights) required Amtrak to pay for capacity improvements. The rest is history for the Las Vegas service. But along the Gulf Coast, Amtrak still shows the service as suspended, not abandoned. They still have the right to run at least the former Sunset Limited service level without any issues with CSX or capacity enhancements.

OK, so why not just restart the service? Simple. They do not want to: at least not on the pre-Katrina terms. The Sunset Limited east of New Orleans was a loser. It was a 100% Amtrak-funded service using the most labor-intensive LD equipment and service, and the passenger counts east of NOL stunk. There is no way Amtrak wants to put that train back. But they do not want to simply drop the route either. What they would like is a state-supported or partially state-supported train using single-level equipment to run between Florida and New Orleans. This way they could restore rail service for the Gulf Coast and not drain the Amtrak budget in the process. And, with Amtrak still holding rights to the line, there would be no CSX hassles.

This plan, if it is the plan (and at least part of it is), makes a lot of sense. It places at least some of the burden of the service on the states that stand to benefit. Right now, today, the traffic counts do not justify an Amtrak funded train. This plan at least gives rail service a chance on the Gulf Coast. The next step is up to the states.


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## AlanB (Jan 23, 2007)

PRR 60 said:


> OK, so why not just restart the service? Simple. They do not want to: at least not on the pre-Katrina terms. The Sunset Limited east of New Orleans was a loser. It was a 100% Amtrak-funded service using the most labor-intensive LD equipment and service, and the passenger counts east of NOL stunk. There is no way Amtrak wants to put that train back. But they do not want to simply drop the route either. What they would like is a state-supported or partially state-supported train using single-level equipment to run between Florida and New Orleans. This way they could restore rail service for the Gulf Coast and not drain the Amtrak budget in the process. And, with Amtrak still holding rights to the line, there would be no CSX hassles.


I suspect that you may well be right PRR that Amtrak is shopping for State support to restore some form of service east of NOL on the Sunset route.

That said however, and while I will admit that it is difficult to tell from the way that Amtrak reports the numbers, I don't think that running the Sunset east of NOL is all that much more of a losser than running the rest of the route. Consider that ridership in FY 2005 dropped a little more than 15,000 from 2004 for the Sunset route. That of course is understandable, since the train was terminating in Texas for entire last month of 2005. The difference however is much more marked in FY 2006 with a drop in ridership of almost 30,000. Since FY 2004, ridership on the Sunset route has now dropped by over 50%.

Now granted there is no way to know how much of that drop can be attributed to delays vs. the loss of the route east of NOL, but I for one have to believe that the current termination at NOL represents at least half if not more of that loss.

Revenues on Sunset have also taken a similar dive of course, dropping over $5.8 Million dollars during the same period FY '04 thru FY '06.


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## AmtrakWPK (Jan 23, 2007)

Looking at the FY03 04 and 05 data for Florida stations that Sunset served, it looks to me like a pretty significant hit on passenger totals not just for Panhandle stations (Doh!) but also for Orlando. It always seemed like we had a fairly good group of pax on and off at WPK on Sunset. So I look with a jaundiced eye on a blanket statement like



> passenger counts east of NOL stunk


. Some of the small stations, sure, very, very small pax counts. But a lot of those panhandle stops are just an artifact - they just happen to be on the way to Jax and Orlando. And of course the Panhandle route includes Pensacola (NOT a hole in the wall or sleepy little town) and Tallahassee (the State Capital). It always seemed to me that at Jax (and Orlando) there was a pretty decent passenger count on and off. I can know that even though we didn't go all the way to Orlando because when we got off at WPK, every single passenger left on the train was going to Orlando, and when we got on in WPK, every single passenger already on the train got on at Orlando.


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## jphjaxfl (Jan 24, 2007)

I traveled on the Sunset from Jacksonville to Tallahassee and Jacksonville to New Orleans and vis versa quite a few times. When the train was running on a reliable schedule it had surprisingly good patronage even in the sleepers. When the train started running 12 hours or more late and when there were suspensions due to CSX track work, the patronage had declined. Even then Amtrak was sending a signal that they didn't want to operate the train. A daily train operated on a reliable schedule between Orlando, Jacksonville and New Orleans with convenient connections to the Sunset Limited and the City of New Orleans would do well. The State of Florida needs to provide some support which should include enough funds for a second Jacksonville-Tallahassee round trip that would be scheduled opposite the through train to New Orleans. The States of Alabama and Mississippi should support the through train as well as a Mobile to New Orleans round trip. With two reliable trains in either direction for most of the route, there would be ridership. The Mobile-New Orleans portion might even gain enough for a third train as the area makes comeback from Katrina.


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## frj1983 (Jan 24, 2007)

I have one question to add to the mix here:

What about equipment?

I fell rather far behind in reading my "Trains" magazines last year, but I do remember a fairly recent article which had a table with a breakdown of available passenger cars. I was surprised by the number unavailable and wonder if equipment is becoming a bugaboo for Amtrak? I know that the Sunset is just a straight run through from New Orleans, but could there be some problems here as well(equipment) which has lead to suspended service?

I will wait for the collective wisdom of the board.......................


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## AmtrakWPK (Jan 24, 2007)

We have a situation now with a number of new variables complicating the situation. The State of Florida is trying to deal with astronomical increases in property insurance premiums for Florida homeowners. Those increases have literally multiplied insurance premiums to the point where even what would be considered fairly modest homes suddenly have annual premiums of as much as $10,000 or more (and that's for the folks whose insurance wasn't simply canceled as their insurance companies stopped insuring ANYONE in the State). Two days ago a Special Session of the State Legislature that was convened for the express purpose of dealing with this insurance crisis was concluded, and the legislature just put the State taxpayers on the hook for billions in potential liabilities as a financial backup to backstop catastrophic losses should we have another insane hurricane season. So the State is unlikely to feel it prudent to try to finance rail infrastructure (which would also likely suffer huge damage from the same hurricanes) at this point in time.

On the other hand, we have the potential of significant matching fund grants and bonding from the feds for State-supported rail initiatives if what has been proposed in the new Congress becomes law. Certainly if a significant upgrade was done of the CSX rail line running from JAX-Pensacola, with new trackage, more double-tracking, and signaling, it would be a whole new ballgame, and could potentially cut average transit time in that corridor by 6-12 hours. I don't know what the situation is between Pensacola and NOL, although the routing is certainly anything but direct, snaking it's way through Alabama and Mississippi on the way to NOL.

We would hope that Amtrak would use some of the proposed capital infusion to purchase, and repair, rolling stock. Certainly a number of routes ought to have more sleepers (any route that regularly sells out of sleepers obviously should have more assigned to it), and any route running less than daily needs to be running daily.


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## Mike (Feb 12, 2007)

With no Sunset,east of New Orleans,how is the on time preformance of the LA to New Orleans Sunset? Would it be feasible to make the Sunset a daily train since Amtrak seems to just want to run it from New Orleans-Los Angeles? My last question is,if Katrina hadn't of happen,would Amtrak have killed the Sunset anyway?


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## AlanB (Feb 12, 2007)

Mike,

The performance for the Sunset during fiscal 2006 which ended in September '06, during which the entire year saw no Sunset east of NOL, the OTP was 15%. And that includes the fact that the train can arrive up to a half hour late and still be considered on time. That also includes a huge amount of padding.

As for the daily scenario, I'm not sure that Amtrak has the equipment to do that, especially since it's OTP performance is so dismal.

Not sure about your last question, but I'm sure that it would have been much harder to kill it, if Katrina hadn't hit.


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## AlanB (Feb 12, 2007)

AlanB said:


> The performance for the Sunset during fiscal 2006 which ended in September '06, during which the entire year saw no Sunset east of NOL, the OTP was 15%.


By the way, that is a slight improvement from Fiscal '05, during which most of that year the Sunset did run east of NOL. During fiscal '05, the OTP was a whopping 7.1%. Of course most of that was due to the horrible performance of UP that year, when the train was often a day or more late, and was not CSX's fault.

By the way, just as an interesting side note, only three other trains have a worse OTP for '06, two of which also run on UP. They were the Coast Starlight at 3.9% and the Zephyr at 6.9%.


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## AmtrakWPK (Feb 12, 2007)

My crystal ball is in the shop for it's 10,000 prediction overhaul.

We know that overall the Amtrak passenger count systemwide has continued to rise. Sunset's passenger count probably would have depended on how awful UP's dispatching was. As has already been noted, CSX wasn't stellar by any means on Sunset, but it also wasn't anything like as putrid or abysmal as U.P. If the line had NOT been severed by the hurricane, AND if Amtrak had gotten the same kind of improvement in UP and CSX for Sunset that it seems to have gotten lately overall (with the occasional lapse), then I would have expected Sunset to be doing fairly well at this point. But none of that happened, we DID have the hurricane sever the tracks, and even though the trackage has been fully repaired, Amtrak has NOT restarted it.


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## Mike (Feb 18, 2007)

Did anybody hear that Amtrak is supposed to decide next month what to do about the Sunset east of New Orleans?


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## Daniel (Feb 18, 2007)

Tom, no I haven't. Where did you hear this? If an announcement is to come next month, Amtrak must have made a decision. Does anybody have any insight?


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## Mike (Feb 18, 2007)

Daniel said:


> Tom, no I haven't. Where did you hear this? If an announcement is to come next month, Amtrak must have made a decision. Does anybody have any insight?


I heard this on Sunset Limited group that I am a member of on Yahoo


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## AmtrakWPK (Feb 18, 2007)

Any clue where THEY heard it?


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## Guest_Ben_* (Feb 19, 2007)

Out of curiosity, were there more people that traveled east of New Orleans from the west on the Sunset or from the north on the City of New Orleans? This could determine whether to run the Sunset through the city or make the CONOL run to Florida as a separate train.


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## AlanB (Feb 19, 2007)

Guest_Ben_* said:


> Out of curiosity, were there more people that traveled east of New Orleans from the west on the Sunset or from the north on the City of New Orleans? This could determine whether to run the Sunset through the city or make the CONOL run to Florida as a separate train.


I'm not sure if anyone outside of Amtrak has those numbers. I'm not even sure if Amtrak ever tracked those numbers.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Feb 19, 2007)

Oh, what the heck! let me throw this info in, irrelevant and out of date as it is! (It won't be the first time!)

George Harris and I and maybe others have mentioned the Gulf Wind, and various other trains that once ran through this region.

But would any of you (other than George Harris and one or two more) realize that at one time L&N ran a commuter train of sorts? It did not have a name, just numbers 11 and 12.

It originated at variable small towns north of Mobile,Ala. I believe for most of its life it originated at Ocean Springs, MS. On in to New Orleans.

It had a morning arrival into NOL about 8:30 or so and went back that night around 5. In each case its schedule was similar to the Gulf Wind. Its run from Ocean Springs or wherever it originated lasted about four hours, I think.

It had long distance coaches, though probably of the poorest quality. They would have been air conditioned, (after the late 40's) but may have not had recliining seats. (But not razor back either). There was no diner or lounge or head end or checked baggge. I never saw the train , but have seen one or two pictures throught the years. Very little ever said about it. It was not exactly the 20th Century Limited!!

I have read that it had many regular passengers, they mostly knew wach other, etc. , maybe even had birthday parties for each other.

It probably ran much more on time than the longer distance trains. For example, the Gulf Wind, combined with the Piedmont Limited and the Pan American, was quite likely late more often the local.

It ran six days a week Monday thorugh Saturday.

I cannot recall much of anything else quite like that in the Southeast. It lasted until the mid-60's, I guess, not sure. .


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## MrFSS (Feb 19, 2007)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> Oh, what the heck! let me throw this info in, irrelevant and out of date as it is! (It won't be the first time!)
> George Harris and I and maybe others have mentioned the Gulf Wind, and various other trains that once ran through this region.
> 
> But would any of you (other than George Harris and one or two more) realize that at one time L&N ran a commuter train of sorts? It did not have a name, just numbers 11 and 12.
> ...


Bill - The oldest L&N table I have is Summer - 1961. I don't find 11 or 12 in that table. Maybe because it wasn't a LD train.


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## Bill Haithcoat (Feb 20, 2007)

MrFSS said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, what the heck! let me throw this info in, irrelevant and out of date as it is! (It won't be the first time!)
> ...


I happen to have a December 30, 1960 timetable with me and it is in that. So, you may have the first timetable in which it had been discontinued. It was technically, I guess, a "long distance" train though it did function as a commuter train.The L&N cannot be said to have had an official "commuter" operation--just one train would not make it qualify, somehow, so it is "long-distance" by default. By the way, it is not llisted in the "equipment and condensed schedules" portion of the timetable. It is only in the longer tables which show every single stop of every size.No equipment listing is given, which always meant a train just had coaches, nothing else. page 9 in my Dec 19680 timetable.

I was wrong about some things-- it did not originate at a point of north of Mobile, instead, it came from south of there. This timetable in front of me shows it originating in Pass Christian at 6:48 a.m. arriving NOL 8:40 a.m. Northbound, it left NOL at 5:15 p.m. terminating in Pass Christain at 7.50.

Though I was wrong about its northpoint destination being above Mobile, I still think the destination changed through the years. I suspect it originally came from Ocean Springs which is just above Biloxi, not just above Mobile as I originally thought. Also this 12/60 timetables says it ran Monday-Friday only---I think a few years before this it did run on Saturday as well, but don't think it ever ran on Sunday.


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## MrFSS (Feb 20, 2007)

Bill Haithcoat said:


> I happen to have a December 30, 1960 timetable with me and it is in that. So, you may have the first timetable in which it had been discontinued. It was technically, I guess, a "long distance" train though it did function as a commuter train.The L&N cannot be said to have had an official "commuter" operation--just one train would not make it qualify, somehow, so it is "long-distance" by default. By the way, it is not llisted in the "equipment and condensed schedules" portion of the timetable. It is only in the longer tables which show every single stop of every size.No equipment listing is given, which always meant a train just had coaches, nothing else. page 9 in my Dec 19680 timetable.
> I was wrong about some things-- it did not originate at a point of north of Mobile, instead, it came from south of there. This timetable in front of me shows it originating in Pass Christian at 6:48 a.m. arriving NOL 8:40 a.m. Northbound, it left NOL at 5:15 p.m. terminating in Pass Christain at 7.50.
> 
> Though I was wrong about its northpoint destination being above Mobile, I still think the destination changed through the years. I suspect it originally came from Ocean Springs which is just above Biloxi, not just above Mobile as I originally thought. Also this 12/60 timetables says it ran Monday-Friday only---I think a few years before this it did run on Saturday as well, but don't think it ever ran on Sunday.


Well - I went back and looked at mine again. It is there. Trains 9 and 12, but only 5 days a week, M-F.
Here is the table and the map showing the route.


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## frj1983 (Feb 21, 2007)

Thanks for sharing that MrFSS,

I happen to think those old timetables are cool! I have a big book of selected timetables that is fun to look at and gives one quite an education on what was lost over the years!


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## MrFSS (Feb 21, 2007)

frj1983 said:


> Thanks for sharing that MrFSS,
> I happen to think those old timetables are cool! I have a big book of selected timetables that is fun to look at and gives one quite an education on what was lost over the years!


I know - I grew up in those days.
I think you can get them on CD now, too.


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## had8ley (Feb 22, 2007)

MrFSS said:


> Bill Haithcoat said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, what the heck! let me throw this info in, irrelevant and out of date as it is! (It won't be the first time!)
> ...


Try the Official Railway Guide from the 60's for the L&N~ it's there...


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## Jackson McQuigg (Feb 28, 2007)

The nonprofit Florida affiliate of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers, is heading-up an effort to return Amtrak service from New Orleans-Orlando.

Our campaign is encouaging Amtrak passengers to contact Amtrak's new president, Alexander Kummant, their Member of Congress, and their U.S. Senator, asking them to see to it that service is restored.

For more information, you can visit the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers' new website, www.fcrprail.org

Sincerely,

Jackson McQuigg

President

Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers


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## frj1983 (Mar 1, 2007)

Jackson McQuigg said:


> The nonprofit Florida affiliate of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers, is heading-up an effort to return Amtrak service from New Orleans-Orlando.
> Our campaign is encouaging Amtrak passengers to contact Amtrak's new president, Alexander Kummant, their Member of Congress, and their U.S. Senator, asking them to see to it that service is restored.
> 
> For more information, you can visit the Florida Coalition of Rail Passengers' new website, www.fcrprail.org
> ...


If CEO Kummant gives an answer, it would be neat if you could post it here!


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## john h (Jan 21, 2008)

Theres a new group hoping to restore service, see Advocacy group pushes for restoration of Amtrak’s New Orleans-to-Orlando service


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## Green Maned Lion (Jan 21, 2008)

> In fiscal-year 2007, Sunset Limited ridership was up 22.1 percent. Prior to Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans-to-Orlando segment accounted for 28 percent of the route’s miles, but 39 percent of ridership and 41 percent of revenue.


:blink:

Wasn't I just talking about pointless and irrelevant statistics? It accounts for 28% of the routes length but 39% of ridership and 41% or revenue? I see the interest in the last two numbers. I fail to see why the percentage of route length is remotely relevant to anything. Maybe its related to how far I can ****? :lol:


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## meatpuff (Jan 21, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> > In fiscal-year 2007, Sunset Limited ridership was up 22.1 percent. Prior to Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans-to-Orlando segment accounted for 28 percent of the route’s miles, but 39 percent of ridership and 41 percent of revenue.
> 
> 
> :blink:
> ...


Well...high revenue over short miles equals more revenue per passenger-mile, which _usually_ means small cost (loss) per passenger-mile. Which, for me, in a universe of imperfect statistics is the best metric to compare LD services that I can think of. 'Cause you're not going to do _total_ loss, right? 'Cause you could just run the thing once a month, and it'd have about ten pax per run, but it'd still lose less money _total_ than it would thrice-weekly. And since it's loss per passenger-_mile_ it sort of accounts for different route lengths.

That's really interesting, actually. The Sunset can use all the help it can get. It by a good margin loses the most per passenger-mile according to Amtrak's monthly reports right now. If they ran the whole coast-to-coast route it would make the route look better based on that key metric...but of course it would cost Amtrak more operating funds overall, which presumably they don't have to spare! I guess they might need another trainset too...

There's been a lot of belly-aching on this board about how Amtrak hasn't been honest about this situation and everything (and I know this has been talked to death)...but to my mind, they must flat out lack either the equipment or the operating funds. They have a ready-made route there, and Amtrak wants nothing better than to expand its ridership, grow its empire and thus have a case to be more of a priority before Congress. Adding that route segment back on would be like turning a key, management-wise. So I suspect it's that they _can't_, not that they just secretly decided they don't want to, operate the entire Sunset.

Thanks for the interesting and timely link, john h.

-meatpuff


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## AlanB (Jan 21, 2008)

meatpuff said:


> There's been a lot of belly-aching on this board about how Amtrak hasn't been honest about this situation and everything (and I know this has been talked to death)...but to my mind, they must flat out lack either the equipment or the operating funds. They have a ready-made route there, and Amtrak wants nothing better than to expand its ridership, grow its empire and thus have a case to be more of a priority before Congress. Adding that route segment back on would be like turning a key, management-wise. So I suspect it's that they _can't_, not that they just secretly decided they don't want to, operate the entire Sunset.


Overall you would be correct that it would make fiscal sense to restore the route to its full length. And it's not lack of equipment or problems with the route and/or stations along the way that is stopping full restoration.

Hence the reason that many believe that the only reason for not restoring service is because Amtrak wants to hold the States along that portion of the route hostage. If they can get those states to pony up money, like Illinois or California have done, then not only does Amtrak regain potential thru traffic with the rest of the Sunset, it incurs absolutely no losses east of NOL, since the State's will have to make up the slack under any agreement made with Amtrak.


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## john h (Jan 21, 2008)

AlanB said:


> meatpuff said:
> 
> 
> > There's been a lot of belly-aching on this board about how Amtrak hasn't been honest about this situation and everything (and I know this has been talked to death)...but to my mind, they must flat out lack either the equipment or the operating funds. They have a ready-made route there, and Amtrak wants nothing better than to expand its ridership, grow its empire and thus have a case to be more of a priority before Congress. Adding that route segment back on would be like turning a key, management-wise. So I suspect it's that they _can't_, not that they just secretly decided they don't want to, operate the entire Sunset.
> ...


I also belive there would be more people in Texas taking the train to Florida, I for one would


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## yoohoo (Jan 21, 2008)

I have known about this national disgrace for a while and sent emails to my state governor and senators to help support this route - though nothing ever became of it. Its a shame - this route was really the only way to travel west by land. And think of all the towns that no longer have a train station.


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Feb 3, 2008)

I think Amtrak wants and plans to restore service, but I think they were unsatisfied with the unreliable performance of the Sunset. I believe they are working on deciding what form service should return in. Considering the fact the Sunset advertising no longer lists Orlando as a terminus, it appears that a full route Sunset is no longer being considered. I also believe that they are having trouble deciding if it should return as a non-sleeper service day train or as a sleeper service night train. A failed return attempt could be much more disastrous than taking 5 or maybe even 10 years for the return, it will be hard to convince congress for another chance if the return is unsuccessful. This is mostly likely complicated by changing Amtrak presidents during this process. I believe in time service will return but it may be very different, to me if this absence gives them time to come up with better service than the Sunset offered, it will be worth it. Once they do make a decision it could take a while to resume service because by now the employees have been redistributed through the system or have quit, been laid off or fired, so an entirely new staff will be required. I can't blame them for wanting to shorten this route, especially with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando. I hope something happens soon, but we may get a better result by waiting.


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## wayman (Feb 3, 2008)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando.


UP owns tracks east of NOL? Or do you just mean that an eastbound train, already horribly delayed by UP by the time it gets to NOL, would never make up that time east of NOL?


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## had8ley (Feb 3, 2008)

wayman said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando.
> ...


UP technically ends at West Bridge tower on the west bank of the Mississippi River in Avondale, LA BUT the BNSF owns the tracks from Iowa Jct, (east of Lake Charles) to West Bridge.The Public Belt owns the tracks to UPT (or at least most of the way) and the CSX owns from NOL to Orlando (and Miami) when it runs/ran to Florida. (Tri-Rail comes in somewhere in South Florida.) All the hoopla is about when #2 leaves LAX and arrives at Iowa Jct and gets on the BNSF. The major pitfalls are West Colton, El Paso, San Antonio and Houston yards. Avondale can be a pain also if they run you through a yard track up to the bridge via the UP.


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## AmtrakWPK (Feb 3, 2008)

I would of course like to see Sunset resume all the way to ORL. But if they would at least run a train from NOL to JAX, it would restore the southern transcontinental route. It would take some fiddling to set it up so that it could connect with Sunset, CONL, and Crescent at NOL and with Silver Service 91/92/97/98, at JAX, and would require cleaning and maintenance facilities at JAX (Auto-Train in Sanford, which is where Sunset used to be serviced between runs out of ORL, has an excellent facility. Even Silver Service trains occasionally make unscheduled stops there for mid-trip minor repairs).


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## AlanB (Feb 3, 2008)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> I think Amtrak wants and plans to restore service, but I think they were unsatisfied with the unreliable performance of the Sunset. I believe they are working on deciding what form service should return in. Considering the fact the Sunset advertising no longer lists Orlando as a terminus, it appears that a full route Sunset is no longer being considered. I also believe that they are having trouble deciding if it should return as a non-sleeper service day train or as a sleeper service night train. A failed return attempt could be much more disastrous than taking 5 or maybe even 10 years for the return, it will be hard to convince congress for another chance if the return is unsuccessful. This is mostly likely complicated by changing Amtrak presidents during this process. I believe in time service will return but it may be very different, to me if this absence gives them time to come up with better service than the Sunset offered, it will be worth it. Once they do make a decision it could take a while to resume service because by now the employees have been redistributed through the system or have quit, been laid off or fired, so an entirely new staff will be required. I can't blame them for wanting to shorten this route, especially with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando. I hope something happens soon, but we may get a better result by waiting.


I believe, sadly, as well as many others, that Amtrak wants to restore service east of NOL only if someone else helps to pay for the train.

There are no good reasons for Amtrak's failure to restore service at this point in time. Even if they want better service or a different service, they have an obligation to at least restore the service that was there pre-Katrina while they debate what and how to improve things. Either that, or they need to post the 180 day notices and run service during that time and face the fire storm that will grow out of that.

Instead they keep giving excuses that make no sense, while they try to hold the states in that area hostage and force them to help cover the losses incurred by running that service.


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## had8ley (Feb 4, 2008)

AlanB said:


> I believe, sadly, as well as many others, that Amtrak wants to restore service east of NOL only if someone else helps to pay for the train.
> There are no good reasons for Amtrak's failure to restore service at this point in time. Even if they want better service or a different service, they have an obligation to at least restore the service that was there pre-Katrina while they debate what and how to improve things. Either that, or they need to post the 180 day notices and run service during that time and face the fire storm that will grow out of that.
> 
> Instead they keep giving excuses that make no sense, while they try to hold the states in that area hostage and force them to help cover the losses incurred by running that service.


Quite true. One of the dumbest statements is that there is no station in Mobile while they're dumping people off in Beaumont on the right of way on the same train !!!


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Feb 5, 2008)

wayman said:


> Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> 
> 
> > with UP being able to affect on-time performance all the way from LAX to Orlando.
> ...


Yes, if an entirely new train departed from NOL it wouldn't matter how late the train coming in off of UP would be thus helping ontime performance


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## AlanB (Feb 5, 2008)

Crescent ATN & TCL said:


> wayman said:
> 
> 
> > Crescent ATN & TCL said:
> ...


Well it might help OTP, it might not. A lot would depend on just how many connecting passengers Amtrak had on the Sunset, and whether they would elect to hold the connecting train or spend the money to put those people up in a hotel to await the next day's train.


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## AmtrakWPK (Feb 5, 2008)

You'd just have to fiddle with schedules so that the eastbound out of NOL reliably got into JAX in time to meet a Silver southbound. Westbound from JAX would need to be late enough to have Silver meet it reliably, and then CONL and Sunset might need to be fiddled a bit to guarantee arrival from JAX before their departures.


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## AlanB (Feb 5, 2008)

AmtrakWPK said:


> You'd just have to fiddle with schedules so that the eastbound out of NOL reliably got into JAX in time to meet a Silver southbound. Westbound from JAX would need to be late enough to have Silver meet it reliably, and then CONL and Sunset might need to be fiddled a bit to guarantee arrival from JAX before their departures.


The Sunset can be fiddled with till the cows come home and it probably won't make a difference. But one can't fiddle with the CONL too much, or it breaks connections in Chicago.

And I don't know how one can fiddle with the schedule of an eastbound train out of NOL to deal with an 8 hour late Sunset.


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## wayman (Feb 6, 2008)

AlanB said:


> And I don't know how one can fiddle with the schedule of an eastbound train out of NOL to deal with an 8 hour late Sunset.


Don't call the east-of-NOL train "Sunset" or anything remotely like it. Call it the Gulf Coast Special or the Ragin' Cajun or the Finally Some Love For Mobile. And simply don't guarantee a Sunset-to-this train connection in NOL in either direction. Then this train can leave whenever works best in the schedule (ideally, IMO, whenever it can best interact with Silver Service trains in Jacksonville). If you can coordinate it with the City in NOL, even better. But just don't bother with coordinating with the Sunset (at least eastbound; maybe westbound would work, I don't know).


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## Crescent ATN & TCL (Feb 7, 2008)

I don't think they should hold a train for more than an hour anyway, if they hold a train then it will be late and the repercussions will be felt all across the system. i know amtrak saves the hotel expense by holding trains but why make another train late? It just gives Amtrak dissenters more to prove their points with. To me Amtrak is a whole lot nicer than any airline about missing connections. We flew from Birmingham to Miami and back a couple of years ago with a plane change in Orlando. The plane out of Birmingham had a mechanical problem and was grounded for 5 hours for repairs. All other equipment was needed to maintain other scheduled flights. Once the plane was repaired we began boarding, once we left the plane stand we had to sit on the tarmac until we got an opening to use the runway. This was in the middle of the summer travel rush so if a plane lost its slot it could be quite some time until a new one appeared. After 8 hours we were in the air and made it to Orlando about hrs and mins late. We had missed our connection and there were no available seats to Miami for over a week unless we just sat in the terminal and waited for a cancellation. We asked about a hotel and they said no hotel arrangements were made for missed flights that the policy was to wait for an opening for a later flight. We decided to get a refund and spend a the day in Orlando and take Amtrak to Miami and cut a day off the stay in Miami rather than spend an unknown amount of time in an airport terminal. No one should complain about Amtrak trains being late and using that for a reason to fly when Amtrak will guarantee connections and accommodations when necessary while an airline will point you to a chair in a waiting room and tell you to sleep there until they find you a seat with no definite time frame in mind. By the way the Amtrak train was ontime. If you want to know the airline involved their jets are painted very similar to Amtrak's trains when they were using the phase 3 paint scheme.


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## AmtrakWPK (Feb 7, 2008)

The maximum length of holding the train really should depend on what the "pad" was between scheduled arrival at the other end and the scheduled departure of the connecting train(s) there, as well as the average or expected delays anticipated on the trip TO that connection point. If there was a 5 hours time pad between normal arrival at the connection point and departure of the connecting train(s), and the OTP of the train was realistically expected to be good, then they could reasonably wait more than an hour. But all those factors should be weighed carefully before deciding. Obviously, whatever wait time they added would inconvenience passengers who had destinations before the end point of that train, but as long as the connection was made AT the end point, the wait would not inconvenience the connecting passengers at the end point. If the connecting train at the far end was running several hours late, that would allow waiting even a longer time. However, if we use the specific example of a NOL-JAX train waiting for the late arrival of Sunset eastbound into NOL, any late departure of the train heading for JAX would inconvenience passengers into Mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, etc., even if the passengers connecting to a Silver Service train successfully made their connections. All of these sorts of decisions involve trade-offs. SOMEBODY is always going to be unhappy with the result.


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## Guest_Ben_* (Feb 23, 2008)

How is the track condition/congestion between New Orleans and Jacksonville? Has there been any improvements/additional sidings added in that area since Katrina or is it still pretty clogged?


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## George Harris (Feb 23, 2008)

A few comments:

So far as I know, there have been no capacity or speed improvements on the CSX line New Orleans - Flomaton - Jacksonville. They have worse problems in other places that they are spending their money on. This means still lots of congestion between New Orleans - Mobile - Flomaton, still no signals and 59 mph maximum speed limit Flomaton to Tallahassee.

Pre Amtrak, most railroads had specific hold times for connections for each train listed in the employee timetables. They would vary from 15 minutes to "indefinitely"

The New Orleans to Jacksonville 'good' overnight train operated by the L&N - SAL was the Gulf Wind. It was one of the last trains in the country to carry a round end observation. It operated up to Amtrak day. It was only a shadow of its former self in the last couple of years, but I think it carried a sleeper right up to the end. Nothing wrong with this as a train name for an independent Gulf Coast train. In fact, the layover time in New Orleans in the old schedule was so long they ought to have given the two parts separate names from the beginning, even with the equipment running through.


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## Daniel (Mar 3, 2008)

What are the chances there'll be signals installed on the unsignalled portion between Tallahassee and Flomaton anytime soon? How much would it cost?


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## George Harris (Mar 3, 2008)

Daniel said:


> What are the chances there'll be signals installed on the unsignalled portion between Tallahassee and Flomaton anytime soon? How much would it cost?


Unless the answer comes from CSX, anything else would be a wild guess, and nothing more. Systemwide, my opinion that they have more pressing needs elsewhere.

Any cost numbers would equally be guesswork. It would be in the range of quite a few millions. It would certainly not be done by CSX for the purpose of benefitting Amtrak.

I know the state of North Carolina paid for adding signals to the line between Greensboro and Raleigh, but first, the distance was only about 75 miles - Raleigh to Cary already had signals - and the state owns the railroad and has since 1850, so there is no equivalence.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 5, 2008)

CSX would be much better served by taking the trouble to keep their track in a condition along the lines of "barely acceptable", which would be a massive improvement.


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## harl222000 (Mar 5, 2008)

john h said:


> Theres a new group hoping to restore service, see Advocacy group pushes for restoration of Amtrak’s New Orleans-to-Orlando service


Sunset Marketing and Revitalization Team

http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-un-limited?hl=en

http://www.trainweb.org/sunsetfriends/


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## harl222000 (Mar 6, 2008)

harl222000 said:


> john h said:
> 
> 
> > Theres a new group hoping to restore service, see Advocacy group pushes for restoration of Amtrak’s New Orleans-to-Orlando service
> ...



Amtrak Proposes Intercity Rail Ideas For Florida

Tampa Bay Online

It would seem that Amtrak would fulfil it's obligation to Florida and the National Passenger Railroad Network first, since Florida has contributed largely to an transcontinental service. However, you could consider* Pensacola, Crestview, Chiplep, Tallahassee, Madison, Lake City and Jacksonville *an Intercity Route since Amtrak loves to reinvent the wheel.


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## Richard Friedman (Mar 7, 2008)

gswager said:


> I think the biggest factor is freight congestion between NOL and Florida. It's so late, even 1 or 2 days late, and Amtrak doesn't want to continue it. Also Amtrak doesn't have enough spare trainsets to continue to make up the tardy schedule.



The equipment that used to run from New Orleans to Jacksonville just sits in New Orleans instead of running east. There is a group forming called "Sunset Marketing and Revitalization Team" working to get the nation's ONLY transcontinental train transcontinental again. Visit the SMART website at link


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## had8ley (Mar 7, 2008)

Richard Friedman said:


> gswager said:
> 
> 
> > I think the biggest factor is freight congestion between NOL and Florida. It's so late, even 1 or 2 days late, and Amtrak doesn't want to continue it. Also Amtrak doesn't have enough spare trainsets to continue to make up the tardy schedule.
> ...


I wish them only the best. It is my own personal desire to see this service once again but I wouldn't bet a rubbery SDS chicken fried steak that it will ever come to light. It's very obvious that Amtrak neither wants to re-institute service nor does the CSXT want it even though Amtrak dollars paid for many improvements between New Orleans and Jacksonville before the CSX would let them turn a wheel on their railroad. Bustitution never was an alternate after Katrina; kinda parallels the "savings" from the annulment of the Coast Starlight.


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## JohnF (Mar 7, 2008)

We have a NARP sponsored group trying to address the SSL issues. Anyone can join if you want to help us out. http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-un-limited

We have noticed a change in attitude just since our first meeting in January. Some interesting facts on the SSL operations. When the #2 arrives in NO the equipment and crews lay over for three days before returning west. This huge waste on the part of Amtrak is because they never altered the schedule and this equipment is supposed to be going on the Orlando. Instead it just rots there in NO doing nothing. Amtrak also lays over a set in LA because they can't guarantee a quick turnaround there due to the UP's poor time keeping. So they have dedicated four sets of equipment to this 3 times a week service. It only takes 5 sets to run it daily. We are now thinking that may be the carrot Amtrak dangles before us to mediate discontinuing service to Florida. Doing that divides the opposition and it dove tails nicely with the Eagle groups aims and helps their train. As to the schedule, just prior the Katrina #2 left NO at 6PM and arrived in Orlando at 4:15PM the next day. #1 left Orlando at 1:45PM and arrived in NO 9:20AM the next day. All this talk about 'day' trains along the Gulf Coast is just bogus. No train can cover the 614 miles from NO to JAX in one day, the track is just too slow. It's a 17 hour trip. What Amtrak really wants to do is make the NO to JAX corridor state supported trains such as Baton/Rouge/Mobile or JAX to Tallahassee. Something like that. You would not be able to go the distance in one day.

JohnF


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 7, 2008)

If the train is running a day or two late, you need a trainset to stand in for it on the return journey. Thats the comment about not having equipment.

I agree Amtrak should reinstate service, but please don't come up with some naive perspective that Amtrak has the equipment to do this just sitting around rusting. Amtrak has very real capacity issues. A trainset needs to be cleaned and serviced before being sent out. Running the whole thing to Orlando would genuinely require another pair of trainsets, I'd think.


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## harl222000 (Mar 8, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> If the train is running a day or two late, you need a trainset to stand in for it on the return journey. Thats the comment about not having equipment.
> I agree Amtrak should reinstate service, but please don't come up with some naive perspective that Amtrak has the equipment to do this just sitting around rusting. Amtrak has very real capacity issues. A trainset needs to be cleaned and serviced before being sent out. Running the whole thing to Orlando would genuinely require another pair of trainsets, I'd think.


Naive perspective?

Last month several cars were involved in a grade crossing incident in Houston on the Sunset. They were brought back to NOL and presently sit waiting for an opening at Beech Grove. Beech Grove is backlogged. Wondering if it has anything to do with the conversion of so many diner/lounge cars.

I'm hoping they are able to get the parlor cars out for the Starlight before [is it ?] May 10th


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 9, 2008)

Cars that are awaiting repairs can not fairly be considered part of Amtraks current capacity.


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## JohnF (Mar 10, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> If the train is running a day or two late, you need a trainset to stand in for it on the return journey. Thats the comment about not having equipment.
> I agree Amtrak should reinstate service, but please don't come up with some naive perspective that Amtrak has the equipment to do this just sitting around rusting. Amtrak has very real capacity issues. A trainset needs to be cleaned and serviced before being sent out. Running the whole thing to Orlando would genuinely require another pair of trainsets, I'd think.


We have physically documented the train sets as they arrive and depart. They not only sit for three days, but on Sunday and Tuesday evenings there are two sets sitting there until the next days departure. This occurs because the trains are still running on the pre Katrina schedule which assumes they will head east to Orlando for their turnaound. When you talk to an Amtrak rep they try and cover this up with the usual platitudes because it is embarrassing to them. They all know this is occurring. So to resume service to Florida requires NO ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT. All they have to do is continue east as they did before Katrina. The equipment then has an overnight layover in Orlando for servicing before returning the next day. In addition the schedule allows two to three hours in New Orleans both directions for crew changes, restocking and such. Amtrak excuses for not resuming service to Florida are just bogus and have no basis in fact. Before Katrina, Orlando was a huge attraction for the train. Before Katrina the NO to Orland segment accounted for 28% of the route miles, but 39% of the ridership and 41% of the revenue(stats from NARP).

jf


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## Rafi (Mar 10, 2008)

JohnF said:


> We have physically documented the train sets as they arrive and depart. They not only sit for three days, but on Sunday and Tuesday evenings there are two sets sitting there until the next days departure. This occurs because the trains are still running on the pre Katrina schedule which assumes they will head east to Orlando for their turnaound. When you talk to an Amtrak rep they try and cover this up with the usual platitudes because it is embarrassing to them. They all know this is occurring. So to resume service to Florida requires NO ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT. All they have to do is continue east as they did before Katrina. The equipment then has an overnight layover in Orlando for servicing before returning the next day. In addition the schedule allows two to three hours in New Orleans both directions for crew changes, restocking and such. Amtrak excuses for not resuming service to Florida are just bogus and have no basis in fact. Before Katrina, Orlando was a huge attraction for the train. Before Katrina the NO to Orland segment accounted for 28% of the route miles, but 39% of the ridership and 41% of the revenue(stats from NARP).jf


John,

AFAIK, you're correct in what you point out with regard to equipment availability. Unfortunately, I think we all know that the sad fact is that we won't see service on that corridor (especially as a reinstated Sunset Limited as opposed to a "corridor" train or trains) unless there is:

1) Some sort of lawsuit

2) A mandate from Congress

or

3) The states involved pony up subsidies

That just seems to be the sad fact here. Of course, I may be mistaken.

Rafi


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## JohnF (Mar 10, 2008)

Rafi said:


> JohnF said:
> 
> 
> > We have physically documented the train sets as they arrive and depart. They not only sit for three days, but on Sunday and Tuesday evenings there are two sets sitting there until the next days departure. This occurs because the trains are still running on the pre Katrina schedule which assumes they will head east to Orlando for their turnaound. When you talk to an Amtrak rep they try and cover this up with the usual platitudes because it is embarrassing to them. They all know this is occurring. So to resume service to Florida requires NO ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT. All they have to do is continue east as they did before Katrina. The equipment then has an overnight layover in Orlando for servicing before returning the next day. In addition the schedule allows two to three hours in New Orleans both directions for crew changes, restocking and such. Amtrak excuses for not resuming service to Florida are just bogus and have no basis in fact. Before Katrina, Orlando was a huge attraction for the train. Before Katrina the NO to Orland segment accounted for 28% of the route miles, but 39% of the ridership and 41% of the revenue(stats from NARP).jf
> ...


Sadly, you are probably correct. But that is one reason to make this more widely known, particularly to Mayors and local representatives long the way. It's the cities and states affected that should be initiating any action on this and it is apparent that they really are not aware of the facts. If they knew how poorly this thing was run they might get more involved.


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## Green Maned Lion (Mar 12, 2008)

JohnF said:


> Before Katrina the NO to Orland segment accounted for 28% of the route miles, but 39% of the ridership and 41% of the revenue(stats from NARP).jf


I have had that particular set of statistical nonsense thrown at me before. There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. They have little relationship to each other.


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## AlanB (Mar 12, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> JohnF said:
> 
> 
> > Before Katrina the NO to Orland segment accounted for 28% of the route miles, but 39% of the ridership and 41% of the revenue(stats from NARP).jf
> ...


Well those particular stats weren't thrown at you; in fact they were presented rather nicely. Additionally since you don't have any power at Amtrak, it really is inconsequential that you don't like statistics or trust them very much. It only matters that someone at Amtrak with power believes them, or some politician believes them, or a bunch of voters in the states affected by the truncated service believe them and in turn put pressure on some politicians to fix things.


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## PRR 60 (Mar 12, 2008)

Green Maned Lion said:


> JohnF said:
> 
> 
> > Before Katrina the NO to Orland segment accounted for 28% of the route miles, but 39% of the ridership and 41% of the revenue(stats from NARP).jf
> ...


NARP throws out numbers like that all the time and provides no basis for the analysis. Zero. Nada. What are the source statistics for the claim? I did a quick analysis using NARP's own station-by-station ridership data and came up with the opposite conclusion: that the eastern end of the Sunset route underperformed the route as a whole by a substantial margin. That is my understanding of Amtrak's internal analysis as well.


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## AlanB (Mar 12, 2008)

PRR 60 said:


> Green Maned Lion said:
> 
> 
> > JohnF said:
> ...


I can't speak for where NARP got its numbers from, nor can I confirm that NARP's numbers are accurate. But it would appear just from Amtrak's own numbers that the loss of the eastern portion of the route is hurting things. Again I can't say if all of the losses are due solely to the loss of the eastern part, or other factors like OTP, but nonetheless the Sunset has suffered major losses since Katrina. Additionally I'll grant that part of the loss was due to no train running at all for a while, then running only to Texas, before finally returning to New Orleans.

From Amtrak's own numbers:

Ridership:

2004 - 96,426

2005 - 81,348 loss 15,078

2006 - 51,860 loss 29,488

Total lost ridership 44,566, almost half.

Revenue:

2004 - $11,108,532

2005 - $ 9,375,374 loss $1,733,158

2006 - $ 5,282,241 loss $4,093,133

Total lost revenue $5,826,291 more than half.

I will also allow that fiscal 2007 saw a slight to moderate increase in the numbers, it was the first full year of running LAX-NOL, but we are no where near back to where we were when we had a full length Sunset. So it is obvious that not having the eastern portion is hurting this train's numbers. Again what we don't know is what other factors may be playing into those numbers, nor just how much the loss of NOL - ORL is affecting those numbers.


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