# Canadian and Ocean cancelled



## NS VIA Fan

Both the Canadian and the Ocean have been cancelled until Nov 1, 2020






Train service status | VIA Rail


Restez au courant des dernières mises à jour et de l'état du service des trains sur l'ensemble de notre réseau.




www.viarail.ca





And it makes sense. Why would anyone want to be travelling now anyway. I can see a corridor point to point journey resuming but who is going to want to ride the Canadian or Ocean when you will spend all your time in your accommodations. Who would be comfortable riding in the dome or even taking a meal in the dining car. These are trains for socializing!

Right now most provinces have domestic travel restrictions at their borders that would make it difficult for any travellers on a transcontinental train. For example..... Any non essential travellers crossing the New Brunswick/Quebec Border (on the route of the Ocean) also between New Brunswick and Nova Scotia has to self-isolate for 14 days. And it's seems to have worked. New Brunswick has only 120 confirmed Corvid cases total and no deaths. 118 have now recovered.


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## Michigan Mom

Thanks for this update. That's another dream on hold, but it's good to know the facts.


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## Bob Dylan

Another example of our Cousins North of the Border being Smarter than us!!!


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## Rasputin

What is happening with the so-called essential services which the Canadian was supposedly providing to a number of communities, primarily First Nations communities, in Northern Ontario?


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## NS VIA Fan

Rasputin said:


> What is happening with the so-called essential services which the Canadian was supposedly providing to a number of communities, primarily First Nations communities, in Northern Ontario?


I was wondering about that too but over the past few years there has been a number of woods roads constructed into those areas. Perhaps Northern Ontario is not so reliant on the railway for access anymore.


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## zephyr17

Well, unfortunately i think it speaks to the fact that the Canadian no longer serves a basic transportation function. It can't, running only twice a week. It caters primarily to tourists, largely international tourists, during the peak season, and they can't even get to Canada now, even if they wanted to. The reasoning always seems to have been the tourists help pay for the train (I have heard several times from staff that the train actually makes a profit in the summer months, particularly since Prestige. I have no hard facts and cannot vouch for that, though), so it is there for those that depend on it. Well, now it isn't there for anyone.

As much as I prefer the VIA Canadian to Amtrak, and I typically ride the Canadian once a year. Amtrak long distance trains run at least daily, except for the Cardinal and the Sunset, and still serve a basic transportation function. You can see it in the clientele, and see it in the ratio of coach to sleeper passengers. And the daily schedules support it.

I worry that this highlights the very lack of a basic transportation function for the train and that the Canadian government will no longer see fit to support it once all this is over, and I dearly love that train.


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## jebr

Bob Dylan said:


> Another example of our Cousins North of the Border being Smarter than us!!!



Not really. It's speaking to a reality that VIA and the Canadian Government see the train as a leisure destination primarily for people to enjoy a vacation on, and not as essential transportation that people can rely on to get them from city to city. It makes it far easier to cut the train completely if/when budget shortfalls linger - if people have the impression that it's there basically as a tourist ride, it becomes hard to justify when so many people within your own country need help and services that are viewed more essential.

Frankly, so far the US' response in regards to public transit funding in general has been much stronger, mainly because it actually exists at all. Canada's federal government has provided no emergency funding to transit agencies, whereas the US has provided around $25b in the CARES act. It's gotten bad enough that Greyhound Canada has cut all routes temporarily, removing yet another essential mode of transportation.

Yes, it's important to help curb the spread, and to not take transit if you don't need to, but we still need these services to exist for people who rely on them to get around, and to exist when the pandemic becomes manageable and we start wanting to take longer-distance travel again, or not be reliant on our personal vehicles for daily transportation needs.


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## Seaboard92

The Ocean every time I've been on it has actually been more Canadians traveling than tourists. The train is relatively full from Montreal to Moncton. 

Now note the Skeena itself is starting back on June 1st as of right now. And Rocky Mountaineer is starting back July 1. And one of Rocky's lines is now out of service for freight. So I'm curious what they plan to do about that.


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## flitcraft

Ironically, I got an email today from Via re-upping my expired Privilege status till April 2021...now if only there will be trains to use it one!


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## zephyr17

Seaboard92 said:


> ... And Rocky Mountaineer is starting back July 1. And one of Rocky's lines is now out of service for freight. So I'm curious what they plan to do about that.


The line that is affected is the former BC Rail line to Prince George north of Squamish. The core CN and CP routes to Jasper and Banff via the Fraser River Canyon are open, being the primary Canadian transcontinental routes. The Rocky Mountaineer probably just won't run their route through Whistler, which was a fairly recent addition to their portfolio, anyway.


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## jiml

jebr said:


> Not really. It's speaking to a reality that VIA and the Canadian Government see the train as a leisure destination primarily for people to enjoy a vacation on, and not as essential transportation that people can rely on to get them from city to city. It makes it far easier to cut the train completely if/when budget shortfalls linger - if people have the impression that it's there basically as a tourist ride, it becomes hard to justify when so many people within your own country need help and services that are viewed more essential.
> 
> Frankly, so far the US' response in regards to public transit funding in general has been much stronger, mainly because it actually exists at all. Canada's federal government has provided no emergency funding to transit agencies, whereas the US has provided around $25b in the CARES act. It's gotten bad enough that Greyhound Canada has cut all routes temporarily, removing yet another essential mode of transportation.
> 
> Yes, it's important to help curb the spread, and to not take transit if you don't need to, but we still need these services to exist for people who rely on them to get around, and to exist when the pandemic becomes manageable and we start wanting to take longer-distance travel again, or not be reliant on our personal vehicles for daily transportation needs.


When the current government handouts are done the Canadian government is going to have to find money somewhere, and I suspect VIA will be a casualty of this. I will not be surprised if it returns with a shadow of its former route structure and uses the opportunity to escalate equipment retirements - not unlike the airlines are doing. That having been said, they're also not going to have the cash to pay for all or at least part of that nice new Siemens rolling stock. The sum of these two factors may yield an interesting schedule.


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## neroden

The way for governments to find money right now, in this specific type of situation, is to print it. 

This is actually proven economic doctrine at this point, basic stuff from The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money by Keynes -- tested and proven for about 80 years now. The sad thing is that all too many politicians *still don't understand this*.

Sound economic policy is for Canada to massively increase spending when the country reopens, and to finance it with the printing press. No serious economist disagrees any more, not after 80 years of testing. The question is whether Canada's government is smart enough to do it. I think they are. The other question is whether the US government is smart enough to do it... who knows.


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## Seaboard92

zephyr17 said:


> The line that is affected is the former BC Rail line to Prince George north of Squamish. The core CN and CP routes to Jasper and Banff via the Fraser River Canyon are open, being the primary Canadian transcontinental routes. The Rocky Mountaineer probably just won't run their route through Whistler, which was a fairly recent addition to their portfolio, anyway.


It is still scheduled for this July after the restart. So once the border opens I'm planning on taking that route.


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## NS VIA Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> ……... So once the border opens I'm planning on taking that route.



Don't think the Canada/US Border will reopen anytime soon. Ontario Premier Doug Ford is adamant he does not want it open so it doesn't look good for the Maple Leaf.......and he has the backing of the Premiers of BC (Cascades) and Quebec (Adirondack).

It's certainly a Federal jurisdiction...and no mater what Trump might say.....reopening would have to be by mutual agreement between the two countries.......but 'Essential' travel and trade still continues.









Ontario premier 'adamant' he doesn't want Canada-U.S. border to open


Premier Doug Ford says he's adamant he doesn’t want the border with the United States to reopen and has also urged people from other provinces in Canada to stay away from Ontario.



toronto.ctvnews.ca


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## zephyr17

Seaboard92 said:


> It is still scheduled for this July after the restart. So once the border opens I'm planning on taking that route.


Hope it works out for you. It is a great ride, I took it years ago on BC Rail's RDC. If it does go it is probably the last chance ever to ride Cheakamus canyon and Lake Seton. There's no source of traffic in the middle section of the route and CN has clearly decided they don't need it as a through route.


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## Rasputin

Do I understand correctly that schools in Quebec are reopening on Monday?


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## zephyr17

Have to say I have the same concern as NS VIA Fan. I live in Washington about 80 miles from the BC border and go up there a lot.

No one here expects the border to reopen to non essential travel any time soon.


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## gaspeamtrak

Quebec school opening's have been pushed back to Monday May 25 at the earliest... 
The high schools and Colleges and universities wont open till after labour day...


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## Bob Dylan

neroden said:


> The way for governments to find money right now, in this specific type of situation, is to print it.
> 
> This is actually proven economic doctrine at this point, basic stuff from The General Theory of Employment, Interest, and Money by Keynes -- tested and proven for about 80 years now. The sad thing is that all too many politicians *still don't understand this*.
> 
> Sound economic policy is for Canada to massively increase spending when the country reopens, and to finance it with the printing press. No serious economist disagrees any more, not after 80 years of testing. The question is whether Canada's government is smart enough to do it. I think they are. The other question is whether the US government is smart enough to do it... who knows.


Canada Yes!
The US? Not till we change the Current Leaders in Washington!


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## Bob Dylan

gaspeamtrak said:


> Quebec school opening's have been pushed back to Monday May 25 at the earliest...
> The high schools and Colleges and universities wont open till after labour day...


This is Smart!


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## Michigan Mom

What happens to US citizens who own property in Canada... no means of going there to do maintenance work and so forth?


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## NS VIA Fan

Michigan Mom said:


> What happens to US citizens who own property in Canada... no means of going there to do maintenance work and so forth?


No.....I don't think so. Essential Travel only.

Here there are also restrictions on inter-provincial travel between provinces with check points at those borders Not just between Canada and the US. For example I live in Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island is just a quick 75 min ferry ride away but this year the PEI government has said that if you own a summer cottage there you may be able to come over but be prepared to self-isolate for 14 days in your cottage before going out......so certainly not feasible for a quick weekend trip to the beaches we've been doing for years.


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## jiml

Michigan Mom said:


> What happens to US citizens who own property in Canada... no means of going there to do maintenance work and so forth?


It's the same in both directions. Lots of Canadians with US vacation properties they're paying taxes or maintenance fees on, but can't visit. Friends of ours are concerned that they won't get back to Florida in time to prep their place for hurricane season.


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## railiner

Some folks have dual citizenship, but not many....I imagine that means they can cross the border at will (for "essential purposes", of course)...?


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## Metra Electric Rider

gaspeamtrak said:


> Quebec school opening's have been pushed back to Monday May 25 at the earliest...
> The high schools and Colleges and universities wont open till after labour day...


When is Canadian Labor Day?


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## NS VIA Fan

Metra Electric Rider said:


> When is Canadian Labor Day?


'Labour' Day in Canada is the same as the US.


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## Willbridge

Metra Electric Rider said:


> When is Canadian Labor Day?


Labour Day in Canada is the same day as Labor Day in the U.S., a legacy of international unions. Attached is a menu from an international meeting in Portland, Oregon in 1923. The guests included British and Canadian labor leaders. It was an AFofL event, so the menu should meet the standards of dining car fans in this website. The event seems to have been calendared to take advantage of Columbus Day and Canadian Thanksgiving coinciding,


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## Dakota 400

railiner said:


> Some folks have dual citizenship, but not many....I imagine that means they can cross the border at will (for "essential purposes", of course)...?



I have Canadian friends with Green Cards who have a home in Toronto. They have retired this Spring and would like to return to Canada. They are reluctant to try currently because they anticipate being turned away at the Border by Canadian Immigration.


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## railiner

Dakota 400 said:


> I have Canadian friends with Green Cards who have a home in Toronto. They have retired this Spring and would like to return to Canada. They are reluctant to try currently because they anticipate being turned away at the Border by Canadian Immigration.


Having a 'green card' is not the same as dual citizenship...it can lead to it, however....
Both US and Canada law allow you to become a naturalized citizen of the other, while still retaining your original citizenship.


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## gaspeamtrak

Same as the U.S. of A...


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## Bob Dylan

I can remember crossing through the Tunnel from Windsor to Detroit on Labor Day with my Brother in Law, to attend a Free Labor Day Concert by Aretha Franklin on Belle Isle as part of the Joint Canadian/US Labor Day Celebration.


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## jiml

Rasputin said:


> Do I understand correctly that schools in Quebec are reopening on Monday?


You are correct. Elementary schools in Quebec open today, except for Montreal.

From Canadian Press this morning:
"Quebec, which accounts for more than half of the country's novel coronavirus cases, is reopening elementary schools and daycares outside the Montreal area.

Students will be subject to physical distancing and frequent handwashing while school officials follow public health guidelines for cleaning and disinfection."

Montreal is delaying until the 25th.


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## Rasputin

jiml said:


> You are correct. Elementary schools in Quebec open today, except for Montreal.
> 
> From Canadian Press this morning:
> "Quebec, which accounts for more than half of the country's novel coronavirus cases, is reopening elementary schools and daycares outside the Montreal area.
> 
> Students will be subject to physical distancing and frequent handwashing while school officials follow public health guidelines for cleaning and disinfection."
> 
> Montreal is delaying until the 25th.


Thanks for that information. It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## jiml

One columnist used the term "Canaries in the coal mine". If you're not familiar with that term, it's not a good thing.


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## Rasputin

jiml said:


> One columnist used the term "Canaries in the coal mine". If you're not familiar with that term, it's not a good thing.


I guess the children and their parents and grandparents will all play the role of the canaries.


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## gaspeamtrak

gaspeamtrak said:


> Quebec school opening's have been pushed back to Monday May 25 at the earliest...
> The high schools and Colleges and universities wont open till after labour day...



Oops ! Sorry I guess somehow I got the dates mixed up ! 
Elementary schools "outside" of Montreal are opening today. 
Sorry about that!!!


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## NS VIA Fan

Although the Canadian returns in November.....there will be no Sleeper Class or Prestige until January 1, 2021.






Train service status | VIA Rail


Restez au courant des dernières mises à jour et de l'état du service des trains sur l'ensemble de notre réseau.




www.viarail.ca





_"VIA Rail’s Toronto - Vancouver route will be offering Economy class as of November 1. Sleeper Plus and Prestige classes will be available as Jan 1, 2021"_

It makes sense.....people are just not travelling for pleasure. Essential travel only. 

Nothing 'yet' about Sleeper Class not being available when the Ocean returns November.

And Masks are mandatory now for employee on trains and in stations and will be for all passengers starting June 23.





__





COVID-19, our preventive measures | VIA Rail


The health of our passengers and employees is our top priority. That’s why we’ve implemented additional preventive measures to limit the spread of the virus.




www.viarail.ca


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## Seaboard92

Here is my dumb observation. Why were they not offering an economy class train during this time. Last I checked the Canadian is a rural services train in western Ontario.


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> Although the Canadian returns in November.....there will be no Sleeper Class or Prestige until January 1, 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Train service status | VIA Rail
> 
> 
> Restez au courant des dernières mises à jour et de l'état du service des trains sur l'ensemble de notre réseau.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.viarail.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"VIA Rail’s Toronto - Vancouver route will be offering Economy class as of November 1. Sleeper Plus and Prestige classes will be available as Jan 1, 2021"_
> 
> It makes sense.....people are just not travelling for pleasure. Essential travel only.
> 
> Nothing 'yet' about Sleeper Class not being available when the Ocean returns November.
> 
> And Masks are mandatory now for employee on trains and in stations and will be for all passengers starting June 23.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID-19, our preventive measures | VIA Rail
> 
> 
> The health of our passengers and employees is our top priority. That’s why we’ve implemented additional preventive measures to limit the spread of the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.viarail.ca


One has to wonder how they'll handle food service on the resumed coach-only train. Hopefully it will be more than the one snack and bottle of water currently being supplied on other LD trains. That already seemed inadequate for the Churchill and Northern Quebec routes.

Also, did you catch the minor wording change in the latest Corridor summary? "Business class service is no longer be offered on any of our routes.", removing the reference to _until November 1_. (The key to the edit is in the awkward grammar. )

Edited to add: I notice you can purchase Corridor Business Class starting August 19, although this may be a case of the reservation system not being updated.


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## Rasputin

Seaboard92 said:


> Here is my dumb observation. Why were they not offering an economy class train during this time. Last I checked the Canadian is a rural services train in western Ontario.


I assume that someone in authority at VIA or the Canadian government has determined that the Canadian in northern Ontario is no longer an essential service although they have not said that publicly as far as I know.


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## NS VIA Fan

An 'Atlantic Bubble' was just announced effective July 3rd that will allow residents of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland & Labrador to travel within the 4 Atlantic Provinces without having to isolate for 14 days.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-atlantic-bubble-covid19-1.5625133

So I guess an 'Intercity Ocean' could now resume between Halifax and Campbellton......but we all know that's not going to happen ! 

Anyone crossing the New Brunswick-Quebec border or coming into the Atlantic Provinces from elsewhere in Canada will still have to isolate for 14 days. The Maine-New Brunswick border remains closed and listening to the Prime Minister......he is in no rush to reopen International borders


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> An 'Atlantic Bubble' was just announced effective July 3rd that will allow residents of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland & Labrador to travel within the 4 Atlantic Provinces without having to isolate for 14 days.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-atlantic-bubble-covid19-1.5625133
> 
> So I guess an 'Intercity Ocean' could now resume between Halifax and Campbellton......but we all know that's not going to happen !
> 
> Anyone crossing the New Brunswick-Quebec border or coming into the Atlantic Provinces from elsewhere in Canada will still have to isolate for 14 days. The Maine-New Brunswick border remains closed and listening to the Prime Minister......he is in no rush to reopen International borders


According to a recent poll, a clear majority of Canadians don't want the southern border opened before year-end and a shocking number wanted it left closed permanently. Not really sure who they asked... obviously no one who understands economics.


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## PVD

Monday, Sept 7


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## NS VIA Fan

PVD said:


> Monday, Sept 7



That's over 2 months away and a lot can happen!

The pop. of the Atlantic provinces is 2.5 million and there's a total of 20 active Covid cases here now...... and even with that the Premiers say they wouldn't hesitate to lock us down again if there's a spike.

If we're locked down.....the US/Can border (in particular Maine-New Brunswick) is not going to reopen.


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> The pop. of the Atlantic provinces is 2.5 million and there's a total of 20 active Covid cases here now...... and even with that the Premiers say they wouldn't hesitate to lock us down again if there's a spike.


When you quote numbers like that the "bubble" makes a lot more sense. While Ontario's have levelled out on a daily basis, they're still nowhere that low.


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## neroden

jiml said:


> According to a recent poll, a clear majority of Canadians don't want the southern border opened before year-end and a shocking number wanted it left closed permanently. Not really sure who they asked... obviously no one who understands economics.


If they just moved the border south a few states, to the Ohio River and the Maryland-Pennsylvania border, it would work out OK economically ;-)


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## jiml

neroden said:


> If they just moved the border south a few states, to the Ohio River and the Maryland-Pennsylvania border, it would work out OK economically ;-)


Oh sure, give us the cold states.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> Oh sure, give us the cold states.


My plan is to trade British Columbia and Alberta for Alaska! Win,Win for both Countries!!!


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## Dakota 400

Bob Dylan said:


> My plan is to trade British Columbia and Alberta for Alaska! Win,Win for both Countries!!!



I would not want the U. S. to give up Alaska. It's a magnificent State! British Columbia is a very nice Provence as well. Have not yet had the privilege to visit Alberta.


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## Dakota 400

jiml said:


> Oh sure, give us the cold states.



But, with the southern boundary proposed by the poster, you wouldn't be getting the piece of real estate where the supposed "swamp" is located.


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## Palmetto

Dakota 400 said:


> I would not want the U. S. to give up Alaska. It's a magnificent State! British Columbia is a very nice Provence as well. Have not yet had the privilege to visit Alberta.




They call it "Wild Rose Country". I must say that when I drove through it over several days, I did not see one wild rose, LOL!


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## Dakota 400

Palmetto said:


> They call it "Wild Rose Country". I must say that when I drove through it over several days, I did not see one wild rose, LOL!



That's like Ohio being "the Buckeye State". Large parts of the state have no Buckeye trees that I have ever seen.


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## jiml

Dakota 400 said:


> But, with the southern boundary proposed by the poster, you wouldn't be getting the piece of real estate where the supposed "swamp" is located.


Hey, my parents almost bought into one of those land deals when I was a child. There weren't the immigration issues and all the other stuff back then. I wasn't crazy about moving to "the middle of nowhere" and they didn't take the deal. That place turned out to be Lake Havasu, AZ.


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## jiml

Palmetto said:


> They call it "Wild Rose Country". I must say that when I drove through it over several days, I did not see one wild rose, LOL!


They got oil though.


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## jiml

Dakota 400 said:


> That's like Ohio being "the Buckeye State". Large parts of the state have no Buckeye trees that I have ever seen.


I always wondered what that meant... didn't know Buckeye was a tree.


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## Seaboard92

If anyones buying I'm selling ocean front property in Arizona!!!!!!


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> They got oil though.


Yep, Alberta is sort of a mix of Colorado and Texas with Canadian manners! And the Wild Rose is a Primrose, there are alot after the thaw in the Spring!!


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## crescent-zephyr

railiner said:


> Some folks have dual citizenship, but not many....I imagine that means they can cross the border at will (for "essential purposes", of course)...?



It can’t be that difficult to get. All 3 of my cousins have dual-citizenship.


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## Urban Sky

railiner said:


> Some folks have dual citizenship, but not many....I imagine that means they can cross the border at will (for "essential purposes", of course)...?


Neither Canada nor the United States deny their citizens entry. Therefore, I would assume that dual citizens never have to explain the nature of their purpose for travel, provided they show the right passport (i.e. of the country they are entering) to whatever officials question that at any border checkpoints...


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## Exvalley

If you are a dual citizen entering a country of your citizenship, you have to show the passport for that country. 

In other words, a dual citizen of Canada and the USA must show a Canadian passport when entering Canada and a United States passport when entering the United States. (For simplicity sake I have not mentioned NEXUS.)


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## Mailliw

Is VIA Rail already going to switch to heritage equipment instead of Renaissance cars when the Ocean resumes in the fall?


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## the_traveler

jiml said:


> Hey, my parents almost bought into one of those land deals when I was a child. There weren't the immigration issues and all the other stuff back then. I wasn't crazy about moving to "the middle of nowhere" and they didn't take the deal. That place turned out to be Lake Havasu, AZ.


Hey, I lived 20 miles north of LHC for 7 years!


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> Is VIA Rail already going to switch to heritage equipment instead of Renaissance cars when the Ocean resumes in the fall?


That was the plan before Covid19. With the Ocean resuming as a coach-only train* it's anyone's guess. They didn't have enough Budd coaches before, so unless some have become available through cuts elsewhere they'll have to run the Rens. The longer term hope had been that new Siemens trainsets in corridor service would free up HEP-2 coaches for use elsewhere. Of course they're not here yet.
* _From VIA: "Due to the uncertainty with the COVID situation, we have blocked the sale of Sleeper Plus Class in November and December on the Ocean. This measure will remain in place until such time as we have a better understanding of the services we will be able to offer._


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## NS VIA Fan

Mailliw said:


> Is VIA Rail already going to switch to heritage equipment instead of Renaissance cars when the Ocean resumes in the fall?



VIA will lose the ability to turn the Ocean on a loop track in Halifax in November

Here' a quote from a VIA Press Release:

_”The solution involves using a 'hybrid' train that includes locomotives equipped with features allowing for back-to-back operations, so the trains don't need to turn around”
”Passenger cars used will have seats that can turn to align with the direction of travel to “ensure optimal comfort for passengers” _

When I rode the Ocean in March just before the service was cancelled by Covid..... they were already using the 'Hybrid' type train on one of the two consists: It had the Budd Stainless Steel coaches which have reversible seats. There were no Renaissance coaches and in fact the only seats on the train that weren't reversible were the 24 dome seats in the Park Car and the 'Cabins for One' (Duplex Roomettes) in the Chateau Sleepers. There were also a couple of Renaissance Sleepers being used and Ren Bedrooms are already set up for bi-directional travel where half the rooms face the direction of travel and half face away.

What is rumored is the Ocean will use the Budd coaches (with reversible seats) along with the Ren Diner/Service Cars and Ren Sleepers as they are bi-directional.

But what to do about a Dome? They could just leave the Park Car off as the round-end Observation would be next to the locomotives in one direction. But if there is any intent to market the Ocean to tourists other than a point to point coach/sleeper corridor type train....it needs a 'Signature' or 'Feature' type car and this could be accomplished by using a 'Skyline Dome' instead of a 'Park Car'......and replacing the existing seating with 24 reversible type seats in a Skyline Dome just like the CP Rail Skyline did for years on the Atlantic Limited as it was not turned in Saint John.

And as noted by @jiml above.....VIA has now added to that statement that Exiting Reservations after November 1 remain valid.....leaving the possibility sleepers may return in November after they see how Covid plays out by then.

_"Due to the uncertainty with the COVID situation, we have blocked the sale of Sleeper Plus Class in November and December on the Ocean. This measure will remain in place until such time as we have a better understanding of the services we will be able to offer. *Existing reservations remain valid at this moment"*_


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> _”The solution involves using a 'hybrid' train that includes locomotives equipped with features allowing for back-to-back operations, so the trains don't need to turn around”
> ”Passenger cars used will have seats that can turn to align with the direction of travel to “ensure optimal comfort for passengers” _


Interesting excerpt from a couple of perspectives. One would assume that any set of 2 or more standard locomotives could operate in this configuration and simply run around the consist in Halifax, although VIA certainly seems to prefer "elephant-style". It's not like they need new equipment to do it however. The second quote is even more bizarre as they are eliminating (if not completed already) this possibility by modifying the 4100-series HEP-2 coaches into the 50/50 configuration, where 50% of the passengers ride backwards 100% of the time. These were the coaches slated to move to the Ocean on delivery of new corridor equipment.





VIA Rail Canada 4000-4009, 4100-4125 - CPTDB Wiki







cptdb.ca


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## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> Interesting excerpt from a couple of perspectives. One would assume that any set of 2 or more standard locomotives could operate in this configuration and simply run around the consist in Halifax, although VIA certainly seems to prefer "elephant-style".



VIA is modifying the F40s to run back to back instead of elephant-style. Previously they couldn't run in reverse above a certain speed.

.....and VIA will be modifying coaches for the Ocean with seats facing travel perhaps because of the greater distance than if they were operating in the corridor.

Since VIA was notified of the loss of the loop-track in Halifax....the whole consist issue seems to still be evolving and now with more time to come to a proper solution with the trains out of service due to Covid.

We'll see in November!


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA is modifying the F40s to run back to back instead of elephant-style. Previously they couldn't run in reverse above a certain speed.


I had no idea! My last trip to Montreal had an F40 and a P42 back-to-back, but the F40 _was_ leading. So I guess the pre-Covid corridor trains that ran with an engine at either end (#67 was one), the F40 would have been "in tow" rather than operating?


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## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> I had no idea! My last trip to Montreal had an F40 and a P42 back-to-back, but the F40 _was_ leading. So I guess the pre-Covid corridor trains that ran with an engine at either end (#67 was one), the F40 would have been "in tow" rather than operating?



Just going by discussion (from an engineer) in one of the forums I follow. Perhaps after the F40s were rebuilt about 10 years ago they were only set up to run elephant style at speed.


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## Seaboard92

Of course there is the option to have a Park Car on both ends. The Canadian uses a captive fleet of three or four Parks with the Prestige service. 

The only other train that regularly is assigned a Park Car is the Skeena which gets two from the non prestige fleet. The Hudson Bay has one Park assigned to WNPG even though there are two sets that run that service. But even with both the Skeena and Hudson Bay receiving enough to cover you still have 7 non prestige parks laying around. You could easily assign four to the Ocean to give it a dome in both directions. Now you would need to do some switching in Halifax to move the baggage car between ends, and the sleepers. But it is a working solution. A bit creative. 

There was one day I sat down and reworked the entire VIA Network and I was able to expand service using the existing fleet just better utilization which VIA hasn't seamed to master yet. 

I'll have to find my notes I had but I was able to give the CP Route tri weekly service VCVR-CALG, Bi Weekly CALG-TRTO. The CN Route was tri weekly VCVR-EDMT, then Bi Weekly to WNPG. With a Tri Weekly service WNPG-TRTO. 

Then I managed to turn the maritimes into six day a week service between Matapedia and Montreal, and tri weekly both to Gaspe and Halifax. It actually wasn't that hard to do it. It just takes creativity which VIA sorely lacks.


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## Seaboard92

Just to further prove my point on VIA's inefficiency with equipment utilization. 

Before they started running the Hybrid Ocean with the Chateaus. You had a fleet that is 24 cars strong that was only utilizing two cars for the Hudson Bay on a daily basis one in each trainset, and four cars in the Canadian sets being used as a crew dorm. So a sixteen percent utilization rate. When I re did the network a lot of the service enhancements I was proposing were pulling from the other 20 cars to be split up. And not running massive 25 car Canadians instead splitting them into shorter trains that run more frequent to provide better service to Canadians. 

Now the Skyline cars VIA has a very high utilization rate on those. Of the 15 cars that are in service today they utilize 12 on the Canadian, and two on the Hudson bay making for fourteen of 15 cars with a rate of 93 percent. 

Budd built dining cars also have a high utilization rate. Of the 12 cars in service they are using eight in Canadian service during the summer peak, and occasionally one or two on the Hudson Bay but that hasn't happened in the last year. So even with those in service that's ten cars for a rate of 83 percent. 

The Manor Fleet consists of 40 cars and in the summer peak they have 12 Manors on a consist between all four sets that's 36 cars for 90 percent utilization. 

From a stand point of serving transportation needs better VIA is doing a poor job at utilizing the fleet because you could split the Canadian from four large trainsets into eight smaller ones, running more frequently. Of course you need CN to do a better job dispatching as well.


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## Willbridge

Dakota 400 said:


> I would not want the U. S. to give up Alaska. It's a magnificent State! British Columbia is a very nice Province as well. Have not yet had the privilege to visit Alberta.



Alberta is in many ways comparable to Colorado or Montana, just a few degrees cooler. Edmonton, the capital city, is the same latitude as Berlin, so if you want to take photos there are many summer hours of daylight. Back in the olden days of the 1970's there were local trains that would take you to obscure Prairie towns east, and a choice of transcontinental trains that would take you west through the Rockies.

The rural hospital system is better than in the U.S., so in case distancing fails in remote places, there's a chance of getting good care.


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## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> There was one day I sat down and reworked the entire VIA Network and I was able to expand service using the existing fleet just better utilization which VIA hasn't seamed to master yet.


Then you feel our pain. This is an exercise many of us have done repeatedly over the years. VIA is a lot like Amtrak - lack of a plan, political interference and strange budget choices, all while embellishing routes that don't need it while ignoring unserved potential.


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## NS VIA Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> Of course there is the option to have a Park Car on both ends. The Canadian uses a captive fleet of three or four Parks with the Prestige service.




Sure they could run a 'Park' on each end.....but in one direction it would be separated from the Sleeper Class passengers it's intended for.

From the news release quoted above I think VIA has already determined the make-up of the Ocean in November with the loss of turning capabilities in Halifax. Now they're working on that re-configuration of cars during the Covid hiatus.......but the question remains.....will there be a dome??

I think VIA is looking for a simple solution for Halifax and just the requirement to run the units around to the opposite end be properly positioned to depart the next day.

I'm also wondering if they will reposition the baggage car also along with the units as the 'Second Engineer' handles the baggage car duties and this would be difficult if he had to go to the opposite end of the train.




Seaboard92 said:


> Then I managed to turn the maritimes into six day a week service between Matapedia and Montreal, and tri weekly both to Gaspe and Halifax. It actually wasn't that hard to do it. It just takes creativity which VIA sorely lacks.




That's the way VIA did it back in the '90s. The Ocean departed Halifax on We, Fr, Su and the Chaleur departed Gaspe on Mo, Th, Sa......offering 6 day/week service between Matapedia and Montreal.

The 'Atlantic' was also running. It departed Halifax on Mo, Th, & Sa......so Halifax-Moncton also got 6 day/week service.







When the Atlantic was discontinued in December 1994 the Ocean started running 6 days/week and the Chaleur was combined with it between Matapedia and Montreal on 3 of those days. And that's the way they ran until the Ocean again went tri-weekly in 2012 and the Chaleur was 'temporally' suspended..


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## Seaboard92

jiml said:


> Then you feel our pain. This is an exercise many of us have done repeatedly over the years. VIA is a lot like Amtrak - lack of a plan, political interference and strange budget choices, all while embellishing routes that don't need it while ignoring unserved potential.



VIA's service actually makes a lot of sense when you factor in the political climate of Canada in my opinion. It seams to me as an outsider that Quebec gets what Quebec wants because they know they have the power to sink any policy in any part of the country. Without Quebec's support things don't tend to get funded. Hence the corridor gets better service, and they are trying to do this higher speed line somewhere in that area. While the western provinces don't get service. The corridor has very useful service and CN for the most part manages to keep that part of the network fluid. 

When I look at the Canadian rail map I see major potential in the prairies especially Alberta. Calgary-Edmonton makes a lot of sense for a Piedmont style corridor. I could even make an argument for twice daily service, a day train and an overnight train between Winnipeg and Calgary, and Winnipeg and Edmonton. Which is one reason I would want to use the HP2s after the new Siemens sets arrive for. 



NS VIA Fan said:


> Sure they could run a 'Park' on each end.....but in one direction it would be separated from the Sleeper Class passengers it's intended for.
> 
> From the news release quoted above I think VIA has already determined the make-up of the Ocean in November with the loss of turning capabilities in Halifax. Now they're working on that re-configuration of cars during the Covid hiatus.......but the question remains.....will there be a dome??
> 
> I think VIA is looking for a simple solution for Halifax and just the requirement to run the units around to the opposite end be properly positioned to depart the next day.
> 
> I'm also wondering if they will reposition the baggage car also along with the units as the 'Second Engineer' handles the baggage car duties and this would be difficult if he had to go to the opposite end of the train.



I think looking at the utilization rates of cars you are unlikely to get a skyline much less two. The Canadian will always be the flagship. What would make more sense but be way more time consuming would be to run two park cars. 

Have your consist set up as such. 

-F40PH-3
-HP1 Baggage with Pass Thru MU
-F40PH-3 
-Deadhead Park
-Coaches
-Food Service
-Sleepers
-In Service Park. 

Then I'll list the switching moves. In Halifax I would do this in the yard off the Bedford Highway

Power Pack=F40PH-3, Baggage, F40PH-3, Park Car

1. Drop the rear most Park car on Track 1, pull the rest of the consist onto Track 2. 
2. Drop the Sleepers, and food service cars on Track 2, then return to track 1. 
3. Couple the coaches onto the Park Car on Track 1, before cutting the coaches from the power pack. Return to Track 2. 
4. Couple onto the food service cars, cut the sleepers off the cut and pull the food service cars to track 1. 
5. Couple the food service cars onto the coach cut, cut the power pack and return to track 2. 
6. Couple back onto the sleepers cut, and drag over to Track 1 and couple onto the assembled consist. Make the cut between the Park car adjacent to the locomotive (Now the power pack is the two units, and baggage car). 
7. Run around the consist on the now empty Track 2, and back onto the consist on Track 1. Then back into the station. 

While its time consuming to drill the cars like this, it is a doable method to handle the problem they have. Of course the other method would be to use the Halifax CN Turntable to turn the Park Car. But you would still have to drill the train in the CN yard to move the sleepers and coaches to the appropriate locations. 

The other method is to wye the train at Truro and run around on a siding. But that will add more time to the schedule.


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## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> When I look at the Canadian rail map I see major potential in the prairies especially Alberta. Calgary-Edmonton makes a lot of sense for a Piedmont style corridor. I could even make an argument for twice daily service, a day train and an overnight train between Winnipeg and Calgary, and Winnipeg and Edmonton. Which is one reason I would want to use the HP2s after the new Siemens sets arrive for.


The first one is the key one. There was some discussion of moving LRC coaches to that route with the HEP-2's heading east, both once enough Siemens' sets arrive. There are a couple of options for services between Winnipeg and the two major cities in Alberta which could be looked at and there's been considerable interest in VIA serving Northwestern Ontario from Winnipeg as recently as 2 years ago: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thun...-social-media-thunder-bay-greyhound-1.4750453 which could be another use of displaced rolling stock.


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## NS VIA Fan

> Then I'll list the switching moves. In Halifax I would do this in the yard off the Bedford Highway
> 
> Power Pack=F40PH-3, Baggage, F40PH-3, Park Car




Interesting idea but expensive when you consider the 12 mile roundtrip over the single track out to Rockingham Yard so I think it would be pretty hard to get CN on board. This stretch of track is only going to get busier with the upgrades underway at the container terminal.....and that was one of the reasons VIA lost access to the loop track in the first place.

VIA has made their decision on the Ocean's configuration come November and I'm not optimistic it will include a Dome.


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## Seaboard92

What VIA really needs and I can never stress it enough is statutory rights similar to Amtrak's to force CP and CN to actually take the trains, and run them efficiently. But that is even more of a hard dream compared to the Ocean having some form of a dome. I really do think the double Park has some merit. If they could modify the station track area you could still do it. It's more difficult to do the switching in the terminal but it can be done. 

VIA just needs a shortline railroader, they know how to switch without a proper yard. I volunteer myself.


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA has made their decision on the Ocean's configuration come November and I'm not optimistic it will include a Dome.


You would be right - at least not a Park car. There are parked Skylines if they chose to go that direction and need to offer food service as well, although there is no food on any other route. My guess is 3 Budd coaches and a Skyline, with no sleepers. I have a November trip to Moncton hanging on this and I ain't going in coach with no food.


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## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> You would be right - at least not a Park car. There are parked Skylines if they chose to go that direction and need to offer food service as well, although there is no food on any other route. My guess is 3 Budd coaches and a Skyline, with no sleepers. I have a November trip to Moncton hanging on this and I ain't going in coach with no food.




Up until 2003 when the Renaissance cars first appeared....the Ocean always carried two domes: a Skyline for economy passengers and the Park Car for the sleepers. The trains were operating 6 days/week and 3 consists were required.









During the summer.....there was also an extra block of Chateau Sleepers that would be dropped in Moncton each morning by the e/b Ocean then picked up in the afternoon by the w/b train back to Montreal. With the short-turn at Moncton.....only two blocks of sleepers were required.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And I wouldn't rule out sleepers not being available in November yet. The current info on the web page is inconclusive....and existing sleeper reservations for November are still valid.....they're just not accepting new sleeper reservations at this time.

_”Due to the uncertainty with the COVID situation, we have blocked the sale of Sleeper Plus Class in November and December on the Ocean. This measure will remain in place until such time as we have a better understanding of the services we will be able to offer.* Existing reservations remain valid at this moment.”*_


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## jiml

I had forgotten about dropping cars at Moncton, which could be a solution for the Park car turn if it was one of the sleepers dropped. There is a wye just west of there IIRC. Really, given the timings in both directions through Moncton, they could drop all the sleepers and diner there and turn them for the reverse journey. The last/first 4 hours of the trip could be completed "coach-only". Not an ideal way to treat first class passengers (although they could be provided with a box lunch leaving Halifax), but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.


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## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> .........Really, given the timings in both directions through Moncton, they could drop all the sleepers and diner there and turn them for the reverse journey. The last/first 4 hours of the trip could be completed "coach-only". Not an ideal way to treat first class passengers (although they could be provided with a box lunch leaving Halifax), but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures.



Don't know why VIA just doesn't do that anyway!

For the past several years VIA has been proposing an 'Intercity' train running between Halifax-Moncton-Campbellton daily...supplementing the tri-weekly Ocean. Just run the Ocean between Montreal and Moncton and connect with the 'Intercity' train to continue onto Halifax. I ride the Ocean often and other than Summer and Holidays....the sleepers really aren't that busy between Halifax and Moncton but they do fill from Moncton and west on the quick overnight run to Montreal.

Between June 1985 and January 1990.....the Ocean did only operate between Montreal and Moncton. At Moncton you had to change trains and connect with the 'Atlantic' if you were travelling onto Halifax.

Here's the Atlantic (right) and Ocean (left) at Moncton in April 1986 (CN was helping out with a GP40 that day!)









The Atlantic on the left (below) had a 'Park Car'.....the Ocean did not but had Coaches, DayNiter, Sleepers and a 'Cafe-Lounge' instead of separate Diner and Lounge cars.


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> Don't know why VIA just doesn't do that anyway!


Great post and pics as usual, and yes, you've nailed it. Weren't we just discussing the need for a local train between Halifax and those points in the thread about Boston to Halifax service? The Air Canada cuts in the region only add to the need. I thought of two issues though - one fairly easy to resolve; the other I'm not sure. First, the crew base and maintenance is done in Halifax, although I'm sure movable to Moncton. (The crew on my Ocean trip last summer were concerned about relocating to Montreal or Matapedia anyway.) Secondly, unlike your pic above, I think there's now only one platform track in Moncton with the others pulled up or in serious disrepair. I also recall a back-up move there, suggesting one end of the platform track doesn't properly connect to the main. (Google Earth isn't much help.)


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## Seaboard92

jiml said:


> Secondly, unlike your pic above, I think there's now only one platform track in Moncton with the others pulled up or in serious disrepair. I also recall a back-up move there, suggesting one end of the platform track doesn't properly connect to the main. (Google Earth isn't much help.)



The second platform track is still in there but it looks like it hasn't seen use in over a decade. Before putting a passenger train in there I would definitely insist on some track work. I don't know what the issue is with the east side switch in the station area but VIA has been backing in and out of Moncton because of it. My first trip on the Ocean it was in service we went out both ends of the Moncton platform siding. However the next two trips we backed in or out. One time was because the EB Ocean was on the platform when we arrived. The other I don't know what the issue with it was. However on the map the switch still connects. 

I think instead of going to Campbellton with the RDC service they should instead go down to St. John, NB which would make much more sense. Especially given the regional flights that connect the two airports proving the need for an intercity connection in that area. In my honest opinion I think the six day a week service or better yet daily service is needed on the Ocean route. It's a great little route and it is my favorite in the system.


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## NS VIA Fan

Moncton had 4 tracks with platforms at one time.





When a new overpass was constructed west of the station the CN mainline was reconfigured to swing around southeast of the old platforms and tracks......so there's the possibility to reconstruct a platform.

Google Maps














There is a power-switch at the west end of the station platform track to the CN mainline but not on the east end. Travelling on the Ocean westbound....we've always just run through....no back-up and I assume this is because a crew member can get off the unit when they reach the switch on the east side....throw the switch then realign once the train is in on the platform track and stopped. It's near the station and the crew is booking off anyway. The new crew just departs west through the power-switch.

A bit different eastbound. The Ocean would have to pass through the east switch to enter the CN main. The switch would have to be realigned after the Park passes. That crew member now has to walk the length of possibly 20+ car train to re-board the unit. Easier to just back out through the power-switch and be on their way east.

Perhaps if Moncton gets busier.....a power-switch at the east end will be installed.


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> Moncton had 4 tracks with platforms at one time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a new overpass was constructed west of the station the CN mainline was reconfigured to swing around southeast of the old platforms and tracks......so there's the possibility to reconstruct a platform.
> 
> Google Maps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a power-switch at the west end of the station platform track to the CN mainline but not on the east end. Travelling on the Ocean westbound....we've always just run through....no back-up and I assume this is because a crew member can get off the unit when they reach the switch on the east side....throw the switch then realign once the train is in on the platform track and stopped. It's near the station and the crew is booking off anyway. The new crew just departs west through the power-switch.
> 
> A bit different eastbound. The Ocean would have to pass through the east switch to enter the CN main. The switch would have to be realigned after the Park passes. That crew member now has to walk the length of possibly 20+ car train to re-board the unit. Easier to just back out through the power-switch and be on their way east.
> 
> Perhaps if Moncton gets busier.....a power-switch at the east end will be installed.


You can certainly see the remnants of the tracks and unused platforms in satellite images - I'm just not sure they're up-to-date and that the situation has deteriorated further. That's why I thought it might be a problem, as anything with a dollar amount attached seems to be a problem for VIA. On my most recent trip last November, we entered and backed out eastbound, backed in and departed westbound. My observations of the track condition were made from the back of the Park car during the latter. Your last picture above does a pretty good job of illustrating the situation.


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## Seaboard92

It seams to me the problem with VIA is there isn't enough of VIA to make it worthwhile to make these simple investments like the power switch at Moncton. Sure the corridor has multiple frequencies a day but if you don't live between Quebec City and Windsor it seams like the network is doing a very poor job of providing service. Especially out in Western Canada.


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## NS VIA Fan

Seaboard92 said:


> I think instead of going to Campbellton with the RDC service they should instead go down to St. John, NB which would make much more sense........




Yes....Saint John (always spelled out to avoid confusion with St. John's NL) is a logical destination for a VIA 'Intercity' service but for now....all I've ever seen mentioned is Halifax-Moncton-Campbellton.

Covid aside......Maritime Bus provides a connection from the Ocean at Moncton to Saint John where their terminal is the former VIA Station.









The 89 mile route between Moncton and Saint John is on good CN track (the last couple of miles to that former station is on Irving owned New Brunswick Southern***)

Tracks would need upgrading to be time competitive. Driving times between Halifax and Saint John would have you there before a train from Halifax would even reach Moncton!

***New Brunswick Southern is Passenger Friendly!


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## Seaboard92

New Brunswick Southern also operates regular excursions actually. I can't figure out how to buy a ticket, but they do run regularly.


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## jiml

Seaboard92 said:


> New Brunswick Southern also operates regular excursions actually. I can't figure out how to buy a ticket, but they do run regularly.


Yes, there are a few reviews and videos out there, but all a couple of years old. We're planning to visit family in NB in November (currently holding a VIA reservation but more likely to drive) and I had hoped to add an excursion to the itinerary. Apparently Fall is the best time.


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## jiml

Love the A/C installs on the old VIA coaches and they even managed an engine on either end. (Looking at you VIA Rail.)


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## siberianmo

With relatives in Bedford (now Halifax) Nova Scotia, my wife and I made the annual round trip aboard the Ocean from Montreal. Actually, our first visit "home" was aboard the Atlantic . . . Nevertheless, over the decades VIA has undergone so many changes including the inclusion of the Chunnel Chuggers (aka: Renaissance cars). As a staunch supporter of those gleaming corrugated stainless steel beauties of the past - I dearly miss having our bedroom in the Park Car along with all the rest in terms of comfortable socializing spaces, etc.

We also made 2 round trips (Toronto/Vancouver) aboard the Canadian's Park cars - CN route - and can fondly recall the Toronto departures around 9 am. Great move to change that to night time (noooooooot). 

For a period of years I also made solo round trips aboard the Chaleur from Montreal to Gaspe - usually in a bedroom as opposed to roomette. Loved that trip in spite of right-of-way issues.

Fast forward to today . . .

Covid may very well be the "reason" some have looked for to pull the spikes from the tracks - so to speak.

Best I can come up with is: I am very grateful to have experienced decades of rail travel aboard VIA Rail equipment with on board Chefs and amenities to make Amtrak passengers jealous. Oh well . . .


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## Gemuser

jiml said:


> Love the A/C installs on the old VIA coaches and they even managed an engine on either end. (Looking at you VIA Rail.)


And they even have a "SLUG!" on a passenger train!


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## Exvalley

The website is still offering rooms in Renaissance sleepers after the first of the year.


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## jiml

Exvalley said:


> The website is still offering rooms in Renaissance sleepers after the first of the year.


That's been a "rolling" deadline... was November, then December, now January. As @NS VIA Fan pointed out, they are maintaining reservations for earlier travel (I have one), but it is not looking optimistic. You can also book sleeper accommodation on other LD trains in 2021.


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## Exvalley

My point is that they are offering rooms in Renaissance cars. Ergo, they believe that the consist will continue to have Renaissance cars. Or was it just coach class that was the issue?


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## NS VIA Fan

Exvalley said:


> My point is that they are offering rooms in Renaissance cars. Ergo, they believe that the consist will continue to have Renaissance cars. Or was it just coach class that was the issue?



See my previous post #64 in this thread:






Canadian and Ocean cancelled


I would not want the U. S. to give up Alaska. It's a magnificent State! British Columbia is a very nice Provence as well. Have not yet had the privilege to visit Alberta. They call it "Wild Rose Country". I must say that when I drove through it over several days, I did not see one wild...




www.amtraktrains.com





And this quote from a VIA Press Release:

_”The solution involves using a 'hybrid' train that includes locomotives equipped with features allowing for back-to-back operations, so the trains don't need to turn around”
”Passenger cars used will have seats that can turn to align with the direction of travel to “ensure optimal comfort for passengers”_ 

What is rumored is the Ocean will use the Budd coaches (with reversible seats) along with the Ren Diner/Service Cars and Ren Sleepers as they are bi-directional.

This would be similar to the Hybrid train they were running just before Covid.

VIA's booking engine is also offering a 'Twin Cabin for 2' and a 'Large Cabin for 2' in January and that would indicate a 'Park Car' would be operating.......but that's a long time off and certainly subject to change!


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## jiml

My guess is lack of an actual website update. This is the same list of accommodations that has been there for years and they've just been subtracting the ones not available month-by-month. They probably have no idea what will actually be on the train yet.


----------



## Willbridge

Seaboard92 said:


> VIA's service actually makes a lot of sense when you factor in the political climate of Canada in my opinion. It seams to me as an outsider that Quebec gets what Quebec wants because they know they have the power to sink any policy in any part of the country. Without Quebec's support things don't tend to get funded. Hence the corridor gets better service, and they are trying to do this higher speed line somewhere in that area. While the western provinces don't get service. The corridor has very useful service and CN for the most part manages to keep that part of the network fluid.
> 
> When I look at the Canadian rail map I see major potential in the prairies especially Alberta. Calgary-Edmonton makes a lot of sense for a Piedmont style corridor. I could even make an argument for twice daily service, a day train and an overnight train between Winnipeg and Calgary, and Winnipeg and Edmonton. Which is one reason I would want to use the HP2s after the new Siemens sets arrive for.
> 
> .................



We had 2x daily - almost - _Dayliner _service between Edmonton and Calgary on what at one time were the fastest trains in the Commonwealth. In the 1980's first CP and then VIA set their minds to getting rid of them and did all of the classic things to accomplish that goal. In relation to Quebec politics, when cross-examination in the Red Deer hearing started to reveal that a "use it or lose it" ad campaign was being run through a Montreal agency that had not even hired a temp in the West to polish their English, the chairman of the hearing-- a retired Liberal MP -- cut off the line of questioning.

Further, when a set of Bombardier Superliners was successfully tested on the _Panorama, _we thought that it was good news -- we could get Canadian-built cars with minimal design and test costs and compatibility with Amtrak cars in the West. Then nothing happened and the rumour mill around VIA was that Quebec engineering firms wanted the design work to be done there from scratch. Eventually related to this it turned out in the newspapers that VIA Rail was being used to launder money from the Federal government to use back then to fight Separatisme and later to fund the Liberal party in Quebec.

When the LRC's were ordered, there were public statements that two trainsets would be allocated to the Prairies. Mentioned was the Edmonton - Calgary service or the idea of a daylight train between Edmonton and Winnipeg (today CN wouldn't be able to handle that). We're still waiting.

American Patrick Henry only had one life to give to his country. The Prairie province rail service gave its life for election results.


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## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> My guess is lack of an actual website update. This is the same list of accommodations that has been there for years and they've just been subtracting the ones not available month-by-month. They probably have no idea what will actually be on the train yet.



Yes....probably nothing firm yet for a January booking but the Upper/Lower Berths, Cabins for 1 and Cabins for 2 that would indicate a Budd Sleeper are not shown and they were available just prior to Covid. 

And it would make sense that by now they would have an idea of what equipment they plan to be operating in January as booking is usually available a year in advance. 

(when you booked for your November trip that VIA is still holding......were you able to book in a Budd?)


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> (when you booked for your November trip that VIA is still holding......were you able to book in a Budd?)


Yes, we like Bedroom A and I've only had one advisory from VIA to date of the possibility of changes - hence my thought that they still don't know. We're not going all the way to Halifax and I'm leaning to cashing in the tickets in favour of driving. If the Maritime "bubble" doesn't open up, it's irrelevant anyway.


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## jiml

Willbridge said:


> We had 2x daily - almost - _Dayliner _service between Edmonton and Calgary on what at one time were the fastest trains in the Commonwealth. In the 1980's first CP and then VIA set their minds to getting rid of them and did all of the classic things to accomplish that goal. In relation to Quebec politics, when cross-examination in the Red Deer hearing started to reveal that a "use it or lose it" ad campaign was being run through a Montreal agency that had not even hired a temp in the West to polish their English, the chairman of the hearing-- a retired Liberal MP -- cut off the line of questioning.
> 
> Further, when a set of Bombardier Superliners was successfully tested on the _Panorama, _we thought that it was good news -- we could get Canadian-built cars with minimal design and test costs and compatibility with Amtrak cars in the West. Then nothing happened and the rumour mill around VIA was that Quebec engineering firms wanted the design work to be done there from scratch. Eventually related to this it turned out in the newspapers that VIA Rail was being used to launder money from the Federal government to use back then to fight Separatisme and later to fund the Liberal party in Quebec.
> 
> When the LRC's were ordered, there were public statements that two trainsets would be allocated to the Prairies. Mentioned was the Edmonton - Calgary service or the idea of a daylight train between Edmonton and Winnipeg (today CN wouldn't be able to handle that). We're still waiting.
> 
> American Patrick Henry only had one life to give to his country. The Prairie province rail service gave its life for election results.
> 
> View attachment 18174
> 
> 
> View attachment 18175


You are correct on all your points. I actually thought they had run a test of a short LRC consist in Alberta when they first arrived. The government throwing VIA "bones" to Quebec firms is nothing new - hence the surprise of the recent Siemens contract. We'll see what happens to that with the post-Covid budget. Service cuts and more refurbs wouldn't be a shock.


----------



## Mailliw

Are there any issues with running the Budd Sleepers in bidirectional mode? Nothing can be done about the roomettes, but can't the upper and lower berths just be made up on the other direction? 
,


----------



## Seaboard92

Mailliw said:


> Are there any issues with running the Budd Sleepers in bidirectional mode? Nothing can be done about the roomettes, but can't the upper and lower berths just be made up on the other direction?
> ,



I'm going to use the old railroad terms for the accommodations. 

The sections it doesn't matter the orientation, and neither do the doubles because half are forward half are not. It's the roomettes that require running the wye.


----------



## west point

This poster is confused. Why not a loco on each end ? When originiating just back up to the first available wye and then proceed forward. Why jump thru alll these hoops? If 2 locos not needed the one used for backing could wait until the next regular train comes and then is attached. How far is the first available wye ?.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

west point said:


> This poster is confused. Why not a loco on each end ? When originiating just back up to the first available wye and then proceed forward. Why jump thru alll these hoops? If 2 locos not needed the one used for backing could wait until the next regular train comes and then is attached. How far is the first available wye ?.



Two locomotives are needed. VIA has already said the F40s will be running back to back......and they can be run around the train in Halifax. No need for a wye (closest is Truro (64 miles) or even the loop track now that caused all this  )


----------



## jiml

Have they done the upgrades to allow the F40's to run at full speed backwards? I asked someone who should know and he didn't. We also discussed using P-42's and he just laughed. (VIA's F40PH-3's will be soldiering on long after their P-42's are sold to Amtrak for parts.)


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> ..........VIA's F40PH-3's will be soldiering on long after their P-42's are sold to Amtrak for parts.




Yup 

When VIA began replacing the MLW FPA-4's on the _Atlantic_ with the new F40s in 1987....the FPA's were nearly 30 years old. Now it's hard to believe those F40's are just as old or older! 

The F40's were rebuilt 10 years ago and will be in service for a few years yet but some of those now 60 year old FPA-4's may still get the last laugh as several are still in service on Tourist Trains in the US.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> Yup
> 
> When VIA began replacing the MLW FPA-4's on the _Atlantic_ with the new F40s in 1987....the FPA's were nearly 30 years old. Now it's hard to believe those F40's are just as old or older!
> 
> The F40's were rebuilt 10 years ago and will be in service for a few years yet but some of those now 60 year old FPA-4's may still get the last laugh as several are still in service on Tourist Trains in the US.


I've ridden behind them (FPA-4) on the Napa Valley Wine Train. Miss them on the corridor trains. Awesome sound. 

Except for their shells, the F40's are relatively "new".


----------



## lstone19

jiml said:


> Have they done the upgrades to allow the F40's to run at full speed backwards? I asked someone who should know and he didn't.



All locomotives are capable of running full speed backwards. The traction motors don't care what direction they're going. Locomotives are not like automobiles with multiple forward gears but only a single reverse gear.

The issue, as I understand it, is the HEP wiring. Unlike Amtrak, where only one locomotive can provide HEP and there is a (simplified explanation) single power bus running the length of the train (and hence Amtrak's 18(?) car limit), VIA has their trains designed for two locomotives to provide HEP (hence VIA's longer train lengths) with one powering the left bus and the other powering the right bus (I believe each car is then set to receive power from one bus or the other). My guess is as part of this, the F40s are currently wired to only pass the generated power out the rear (perhaps to prevent inadvertently connecting the two HEP units together which I suspect would cause a fireworks display). Whatever the issue is, the needed modification is to the HEP wiring, not to anything mechanical to let the unit run full speed in reverse.


----------



## jiml

lstone19 said:


> All locomotives are capable of running full speed backwards. The traction motors don't care what direction they're going. Locomotives are not like automobiles with multiple forward gears but only a single reverse gear.
> 
> The issue, as I understand it, is the HEP wiring. Unlike Amtrak, where only one locomotive can provide HEP and there is a (simplified explanation) single power bus running the length of the train (and hence Amtrak's 18(?) car limit), VIA has their trains designed for two locomotives to provide HEP (hence VIA's longer train lengths) with one powering the left bus and the other powering the right bus (I believe each car is then set to receive power from one bus or the other). My guess is as part of this, the F40s are currently wired to only pass the generated power out the rear (perhaps to prevent inadvertently connecting the two HEP units together which I suspect would cause a fireworks display). Whatever the issue is, the needed modification is to the HEP wiring, not to anything mechanical to let the unit run full speed in reverse.


That was my understanding as well, but I was corrected in Post #66 earlier in this thread. Apparently the issue is indeed with speed.


----------



## west point

Via HEP is much more sophiscated than just a left bus and right bus. Each car and loco is wired so the left bus "A" enters the car at the left front then exists the car or loco on the right rear ( which is the left front if car rotated.. Car #1 receives power on its bus A" from LOCO #2's right bus by the left rear connection of the loco. . Car #2 car then gets loco #2 power on its right front bus "B" and exits the power on the car's left rear. Then the next car gets loco #2' on its bus "A" And so forth. 

Loco #1 's right bus enters loco #2 on the left side and exits loco #2 on the right side. There fore car #1 gets loco's #1 power on car's #1 "B" bus right side and normally passes it thru the left rear of car #1. That way car #2 Bus ""A" is powered by loco #1. Locos are wired the same however each loco's HEP can be assigned bus "A" or bus "B"or both in case just one loco is in consist or just one loco is providing HEP power. Protection circuits prevent a loco from connecting power to an active bus. A single loco can power both buses.

The cars normally use HEP from its bus "A". However each car has tie bus that will connect to bus B" disconecting first from "A" if "B" is powered and no power on bus "A" Each car and loco has a switching circuit so if it is not getting power from its "A" bus a relay will connect car to "B" bus. That way each car of a train normally connects to the A bus unless no power on the "A" bus.. Therefor you can have 2 locos providing HEP to a long train. If Canadian has 2 diners they are usuall set so each diner receives one loco's power.

If one loco in a train goes dead the dead loco can use the HEP from good loco to keep vital electronics and loco cooling from temperature extremes.iit can 

Have not determined if Amtrak is now making pprovision for this set up on new orders or if each side of new cars has car 's power connected together ?


----------



## lstone19

jiml said:


> That was my understanding as well, but I was corrected in Post #66 earlier in this thread. Apparently the issue is indeed with speed.



Hmmm. Of course, just because one person posted it doesn't make it true. A traction motor and wheels/axles/trucks certainly don't care. And plenty of F40s (Metra in my area) run backwards (pushing) at 79mph (plus Amtrak ran them back-to-back in the past). There are pictures out there of VIA running them back-to-back before the modifications so perhaps there's something aerodynamic or a clearance issue about the modification that causes an problem.


----------



## jiml

lstone19 said:


> Hmmm. Of course, just because one person posted it doesn't make it true. A traction motor and wheels/axles/trucks certainly don't care. And plenty of F40s (Metra in my area) run backwards (pushing) at 79mph (plus Amtrak ran them back-to-back in the past). There are pictures out there of VIA running them back-to-back before the modifications so perhaps there's something aerodynamic or a clearance issue about the modification that causes an problem.


The poster in question is highly respected and always has accurate information.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

lstone19 said:


> Hmmm. Of course, just because one person posted it doesn't make it true.........



Info was provided by a VIA Engineer and posted to another rail forum:

The problem stems from the suspension system bearing on the traction motor that relies on a wick type lubricating device. Occurrences increased with reverse running of the F40s in the 1X1 consists and units were being set out with hot bearings while running in reverse. The units are now being equipped with bearings similar to the P42s and can now run in reverse at track speed.


----------



## lstone19

NS VIA Fan said:


> Info was provided by a VIA Engineer and posted to another rail forum:
> 
> The problem stems from the suspension system bearing on the traction motor that relies on a wick type lubricating device. Occurrences increased with reverse running of the F40s in the 1X1 consists and units were being set out with hot bearings while running in reverse. The units are now being equipped with bearings similar to the P42s and can now run in reverse at track speed.



This actually boggles my mind since diesel locomotives are designed to run equally well either way and other F40s aren't similarly plagued. Plus until recently, it was standard to run locomotives back-to-back (think of those classic A-B-B-A sets of 50 to 60 years ago; plus Amtrak regularly ran F40s back-to-back when they had them). Which means Via requested something non-standard on their locomotives. But it wouldn't be the first time a business decided they could do it better than what years of experience had taught the industry only to find that industry standards actually had good reasons behind them.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

lstone19 said:


> This actually boggles my mind since diesel locomotives are designed to run equally well either way and other F40s aren't similarly plagued.......



For whatever reason...... VIA recognized they were having problems with their F40's and it is being addressed.


----------



## Willbridge

west point said:


> Via HEP is much more sophiscated than just a left bus and right bus. Each car and loco is wired so the left bus "A" enters the car at the left front then exists the car or loco on the right rear ( which is the left front if car rotated.. Car #1 receives power on its bus A" from LOCO #2's right bus by the left rear connection of the loco. . Car #2 car then gets loco #2 power on its right front bus "B" and exits the power on the car's left rear. Then the next car gets loco #2' on its bus "A" And so forth.
> 
> Loco #1 's right bus enters loco #2 on the left side and exits loco #2 on the right side. There fore car #1 gets loco's #1 power on car's #1 "B" bus right side and normally passes it thru the left rear of car #1. That way car #2 Bus ""A" is powered by loco #1. Locos are wired the same however each loco's HEP can be assigned bus "A" or bus "B"or both in case just one loco is in consist or just one loco is providing HEP power. Protection circuits prevent a loco from connecting power to an active bus. A single loco can power both buses.
> 
> The cars normally use HEP from its bus "A". However each car has tie bus that will connect to bus B" disconecting first from "A" if "B" is powered and no power on bus "A" Each car and loco has a switching circuit so if it is not getting power from its "A" bus a relay will connect car to "B" bus. That way each car of a train normally connects to the A bus unless no power on the "A" bus.. Therefor you can have 2 locos providing HEP to a long train. If Canadian has 2 diners they are usually set so each diner receives one loco's power.
> 
> If one loco in a train goes dead the dead loco can use the HEP from good loco to keep vital electronics and loco cooling from temperature extremes.
> 
> Have not determined if Amtrak is now making provision for this set up on new orders or if each side of new cars has car 's power connected together ?



Thanx much for the explanation. My personal experience with this was in the 1950's setting up power blocks on our Lionel layout and having to match AC phases. When there was a big blue flash then I knew I had it wrong. What you described suggests that is still a risk that can be protected against.


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## jiml

__





VIA RAIL POSTPONES THE SERVICE RESUMPTION OF THE CANADIAN AND THE OCEAN | VIA Rail


MONTRÉAL, September 25, 2020 – As COVID-19 cases are currently on the rise again and in an effort to continue to follow recommendations from public health authorities, VIA Rail Canada (VIA Rail) extends the suspension of its long-distance routes, the Canadian and the Ocean, as well as the...




media.viarail.ca


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## Seaboard92

__





VIA RAIL ANNOUNCES A GRADUAL SERVICE RESUMPTION IN WESTERN CANADA | VIA Rail


MONTRÉAL, October 20, 2020 – VIA Rail Canada (VIA Rail) announces the gradual return to service in Western Canada by providing intercity transportation exclusively between Winnipeg and Vancouver as of Friday, December 11, 2020.




media.viarail.ca





It has been announced today that the Canadian is partially returning. Effective on December 11th the Canadian will return but only operating Vancouver-Winnipeg. 

Here is the schedule that is operating right now. 

Eastbound
Friday Train No. 2 departs Vancouver, BC-Ashcroft, BC
Saturday Train No. 2 Departs Kamloops,BC-Viking, AB
Sunday Train No. 2 Departs Wainwright, AB-Winnipeg, MB

Westbound
Monday Train No. 1 departs Winnipeg, MB-Portage La Prairie, MB
Tuesday Train No. 1 departs Rivers, MB-Edmonton, AB
Wednesday Train No. 1 departs Edmonton, AB-Ashcroft, BC
Thursday Train No. 1 departs Boston Bar, BC-Vancouver, BC

It isn't that bad of a schedule using only one set of equipment. Layover on each end is a fairly decent time. 

Winnipeg: 23 hours 30 minutes
Vancouver: 31 Hours

So in theory they have a fairly good chance of running it on time.


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## NS VIA Fan

You will have to remain in your sleeper but can go to the diner by reservation. Tthere will bo access to the Park Car.


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## Seaboard92

NS VIA Fan said:


> You will have to remain in your sleeper but can go to the diner by reservation. Tthere will bo access to the Park Car.



I wonder if that means no skyline cars, or Park car. It would look significantly different. I think I will have to use this stripped down Canadian for a business trip sometime in the spring. Now that I have business in Saskatoon and I believe I can cross the border legally because of it.


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## Bob Dylan

Seaboard92 said:


> I wonder if that means no skyline cars, or Park car. It would look significantly different. I think I will have to use this stripped down Canadian for a business trip sometime in the spring. Now that I have business in Saskatoon and I believe I can cross the border legally because of it.


NS VIA Fan says there will be access to the Park Car, but nothing about Dome Cars.

Wonder if the Ultra Deluxe Service will be run and have their exclusive seats and times in the Park Car?

And if Winter Fares and "Specials" will be offered??


----------



## brianpmcdonnell17

Bob Dylan said:


> NS VIA Fan says there will be access to the Park Car, but nothing about Dome Cars.
> 
> Wonder if the Ultra Deluxe Service will be run and have their exclusive seats and times in the Park Car?
> 
> And if Winter Fares and "Specials" will be offered??


According to the VIA Facebook page, there will be no access to the Park Car. The post you are referring to appears to be cut off, so it may also have been stating that there is no access rather than that there is.


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## NS VIA Fan

VIA has clarified .. there will be NO access to the Park Car and nothing about a Skyline in the consist. The Diner will have limited seating by reservation only.


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## jiml

Bob Dylan said:


> Wonder if the Ultra Deluxe Service will be run and have their exclusive seats and times in the Park Car?
> 
> And if Winter Fares and "Specials" will be offered??


To date the Prestige class is only offered during summer months. Currently they are only selling coach seats on the resumed service. One source expects Sleeper Plus class to be restored, however all classes but Economy are currently "zeroed out" (which I can confirm based on several trial dates into January).


----------



## jiml




----------



## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> To date the Prestige class is only offered during summer months. Currently they are only selling coach seats on the resumed service. One source expects Sleeper Plus class to be restored, however all classes but Economy are currently "zeroed out" (which I can confirm based on several trial dates into January).


Thanks, even though it's only Winnipeg to Vancouver, ( comparable to one of the 2 Night Western Trains)@ my age I'd still have to pass on riding in Coach, something I did many times "..when I wore a younger man's clothes"..


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## NS VIA Fan

VIA has replied to a question posted to their Facebook page that Sleepers will be available on the Canadian resuming on Dec 11th. They've been constantly updating info over the past day so I imagine you'll be able to book sleeper space shortly.

And they note again there will be NO access to the Park Car but there is a Diner. So it's basic transportation with coach, sleeper and meals available.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA has replied to a question posted to their Facebook page that Sleepers will be available on the Canadian resuming on Dec 11th. They've been constantly updating info over the past day so I imagine you'll be able to book sleeper space shortly.
> 
> And they note again there will be NO access to the Park Car but there is a Diner. So it's basic transportation with coach, sleeper and meals available.



Thanks, that confirms the one account that stated that as fact. (Oddly it wasn't from VIA.) I wonder if there will even be Park car in the consist (crew dorm?) or if the picture you've posted above will be a fairly accurate representation of the "new Canadian". Senior economy fare from Winnipeg to Vancouver is $292 pre-tax btw, which seems high for off-season, but so are coach airfares a few months down the road.


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## neroden

Seaboard92 said:


> What VIA really needs and I can never stress it enough is statutory rights similar to Amtrak's to force CP and CN to actually take the trains, and run them efficiently.


VIA's management has come to the same conclusion some of us Amtrak advocates have -- it needs its own tracks, or tracks owned by public agencies for the purpose of passenger service. One of VIA's biggest problems is that it has no statutory basis at all -- it was established by executive action ("order in council") and never actually had a law establishing it.


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## joelkfla

I can understand the difficulty of social distancing in the limited seating of the partial domes, but to me, the dome was an essential part of the experience. That, and the possibility of not getting into the diner, would make it a no-go for me.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

It's not looking good for a return of the _Ocean_ anytime soon as the 'Atlantic Bubble' has burst . The Bubble had allowed residents of the Atlantic Provinces to move freely between the four provinces without isolating. Now there's been a spike in cases here (but still nowhere near the cases in other areas).....so they've locked us down fast. In Nova Scotia on Nov 27th there were 9 new cases and New Brunswick: 13 new cases Now anyone going from NS to NB is required to isolate for 14 days and as before...anyone coming into NB from Quebec is also required to isolate.


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## jiml

I had planned to visit my cousin in NB this month.

I wonder if VIA has had to revisit their planned resumption of the Canadian out west.


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## NS VIA Fan

Bob Dylan said:


> We have that many New Cases every Second here in this Third World Country, er Home of the Best Medical Care in the World!......



Other areas of the country are higher with Ontario, Quebec and Alberta reporting about 1200 to 1500 new cases each per day. Manitoba is very high on a per capita basis so I'm skeptical the _Canadian_ will re-launch in December.

And I'm not going to get complacent here. We have no cases locally.....they are mainly in the Halifax region but all it would take are a few to do that Christmas shopping trip to Costco......and then it will be here too!


----------



## Bob Dylan

NS VIA Fan said:


> Other areas of the country are higher with Ontario, Quebec and Alberta reporting about 1200 to 1500 new cases each per day. Manitoba is very high on a per capita basis so I'm skeptical the _Canadian_ will re-launch in December.
> 
> And I'm not going to get complacent here. We have no cases locally.....they are mainly in the Halifax region but all it would take are a few to do a that Christmas shopping trip to Costco......and then it will be here too!


Stay Safe!


----------



## Mailliw

Australia & New Zealand have the advantages of being islands and they closed their borders early on.


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## Gemuser

Mailliw said:


> Australia & New Zealand have the advantages of being islands and they closed their borders early on.


The key point is "they closed their borders early on". Mind you there were major stuff ups, especially early on. Just Google - Ruby Princes + Sydney for one case.


----------



## Exvalley

After two cancelled attempts (May and October), I am thinking about re-booking on the Ocean. 

Is there a particular direction that is best? I was originally booked to ride from Montreal to Halifax, but on the weekend I would like to travel there is no room with a shower available in that direction - but a shower room is available traveling from Halifax to Montreal.

It's not a huge deal if I go one day without a shower, but all things being equal I'd prefer the trip with one.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

I like travelling eastbound especially in May or June as you'll get daylight in the early morning and a chance to see the Matapedia Valley that is usually in darkness. Here's a link to my post from a couple of years ago

http://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/good-morning-breakfast-on-the-ocean.73170/#post-761490


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## jiml

The rooms without showers, including those in Budd cars, have access to a shower. On our last trip they had a Renaissance bedroom with a shower set aside for that purpose two cars forward of ours.


----------



## Exvalley

jiml said:


> The rooms without showers, including those in Budd cars, have access to a shower.


Ah, I did not realize that.

Thanks.


----------



## Exvalley

NS VIA Fan said:


> I like travelling eastbound especially in May or June as you'll get daylight in the early morning and a chance to see the Matapedia Valley that is usually in darkness. Here's a link to my post from a couple of years ago
> 
> http://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/good-morning-breakfast-on-the-ocean.73170/#post-761490


Hmm... I was thinking about booking Labour Day weekend, but there is a room with a shower on the weekend of U.S. Memorial Day, which is in late May.

But will the border be open by then? Something tells me that I may be pushing my luck. This could be the third time that my trip is cancelled...


----------



## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> Hmm... I was thinking about booking Labour Day weekend, but there is a room with a shower on the weekend of U.S. Memorial Day, which is in late May.
> 
> But will the border be open by then? Something tells me that I may be pushing my luck. This could be the third time that my trip is cancelled...


It doesnt look promising for the Canadian/US border to be "Open" until perhaps Summer, and VIA isnt going to rush into restoring LD Service, ditto for Amtrak.

I'd wait until maybe September( after our Labor Day) to book.


----------



## Exvalley

Bob Dylan said:


> It doesnt look good for the Canadian/US border to be "Open" until perhaps Summer, and VIA isnt going to rush into restoring LD Service, ditto for Amtrak.


My thoughts exactly. I think that I will hold off for a while.

Mind you, I have a flight to Europe booked out of Montreal that departs on June 27th - so I REALLY hope that the border is open to me by then. My hope was that if we can get vaccinated by then Canada will allow us entry.

The good news is that I can take a credit for the full amount of the airfare if I am unable to make my flight. Air Transat has some very good cancellation policies right now. I would just use the credit for a 2021/2022 winter getaway.


----------



## TheMalahat

Canadian did leave Vancouver tonight, for the fist time in ten months! And, as per tradition, already late.


----------



## jiml

TheMalahat said:


> Canadian did leave Vancouver tonight, for the fist time in ten months! And, as per tradition, already late.


Going only as far as Winnipeg IIRC, then turning around.


----------



## toddinde

Bob Dylan said:


> Another example of our Cousins North of the Border being Smarter than us!!!


Their trains serve a different purpose. Our long distance trains are transportation. The Canadian especially is a land cruise. No need for a land cruise now, but transportation to Amtrak served communities is essential.


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## Mailliw

I think local Martimers use/d the Ocean as transport.


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> I think local Martimers use/d the Ocean as transport.


With the recent cuts in flights to Maritime destinations, you would be even more accurate than previous years.


----------



## TheMalahat

jiml said:


> Going only as far as Winnipeg IIRC, then turning around.



Yup. One train set running back and forth was the plan I believe? But with its current schedule keeping even the massive schedule padding is insufficient for that.


----------



## neroden

The Maritimes transport situation is getting pretty dire.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

neroden said:


> The Maritimes transport situation is getting pretty dire.



People just aren't travelling!!....... and it shows in the extremely low Covid numbers here. Currently there are 55 active cases in Nova Scotia (pop nearly a million).....and no one is in the Hospital or ICU.

If you have to fly.....there are flights and Maritime Bus is still running so no one is stranded.

VIA will be back and transportation will return to normalcy when this is all over!


----------



## Rasputin

NS VIA Fan said:


> If you have to fly.....there are flights and Maritime Bus is still running so no one is stranded.


So the pandemic appearing to showing that passenger rail service is irrelevant.


----------



## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> People just aren't travelling!!....... and it shows in the extremely low Covid numbers here.


In fairness though, people really aren't _allowed_ to travel - especially in the case of long distance. It's not like they're making a choice.



NS VIA Fan said:


> If you have to fly.....there are flights and Maritime Bus is still running so no one is stranded.


While that's true in Halifax, it's a tough sell to the people whose airports closed in the last two weeks when they lost their last few flights, including major cities like Saint John, NB. I have several relatives and friends in NB who are quite concerned about the future of transportation in their province.



NS VIA Fan said:


> VIA will be back and transportation will return to normalcy when this is all over!


I hope you're right. I have way more confidence in VIA than either of the airlines.


----------



## NS VIA Fan

Rasputin said:


> So the pandemic appearing to showing that passenger rail service is irrelevant.



The problem with running VIA's Ocean is the 14 day quarantine requirement once you cross the Provincial Border between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Maritime Bus passengers would have the same problem when crossing the border but they serve a larger number of stops wholly within each province than VIA does to make the bus a more viable option. And like I said above....no one is travelling anyway!


----------



## NS VIA Fan

jiml said:


> In fairness though, people really aren't _allowed_ to travel - especially in the case of long distance. It's not like they're making a choice.......



There are restrictions to non-essential travel between some provinces but right now there is nothing stopping me from getting on the plane to say Toronto or Calgary....It's just when I return to Nova Scotia I have to isolate for 14 days. But would I travel....NO!

Sydney loses all air service on Jan 11 and it's a 4 hr drive to another airport.....but when it was reported a couple of weeks ago there were 6 on a flight to Toronto .....it's just not sustainable.

Saint John is another story.....you can still fly out of Fredericton an hour away or Moncton. (anytime I travel it's a hour to VIA in Truro or 2 hrs to Halifax Airport)

I'm certainly not concerned about transportation options returning when a good portion of the public is vaccinated as early as perhaps next summer or fall. There's going to be a pent up desire to travel!

(The local airline here....Provincial Airlines has just announced new routes that will help fill the gap by the AC and WestJet withdrawal and hopefully Sydney will be next)


----------



## NS VIA Fan

There's probably not that many travelling on the 'Canadian' right now anyway.......but beginning on Friday, January 29:

_”Anyone entering Manitoba, including people coming from Western Canada, will have to self-isolate for 14 days starting Friday”_




https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-manitoba-brian-pallister-1.5888250


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## Bob Dylan

NS VIA Fan said:


> There's probably not that many travelling on the 'Canadian' right now anyway.......but beginning on Friday, January 29:
> 
> _”Anyone entering Manitoba, including people coming from Western Canada, will have to self-isolate for 14 days starting Friday”_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-manitoba-brian-pallister-1.5888250


Time to Shut her down again!!!!


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## jiml

NS VIA Fan said:


> There's probably not that many travelling on the 'Canadian' right now anyway.......but beginning on Friday, January 29:
> 
> _”Anyone entering Manitoba, including people coming from Western Canada, will have to self-isolate for 14 days starting Friday”_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/covid-19-manitoba-brian-pallister-1.5888250


I guess if one's final destination is Winnipeg this is not a disaster, but otherwise they may as well truncate it in Saskatchewan. I have not heard how the restart has been in actual numbers, but between the season, the reduced dining and no access to dome cars, I can't imagine it's been too popular for anything but basic transportation.


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## me_little_me

jiml said:


> I guess if one's final destination is Winnipeg this is not a disaster, but otherwise they may as well truncate it in Saskatchewan. I have not heard how the restart has been in actual numbers, but between the season, the reduced dining and no access to dome cars, I can't imagine it's been too popular for anything but basic transportation.


But the food is better than Amtrak!


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## jiml

The Ocean remains on hiatus until May 15. Sleeper accommodation on the Hudson Bay service from Winnipeg is now suspended until the same date.

As anticipated by @NS VIA Fan, VIA has also posted the following warning for those travelling eastbound on the Canadian:
"The Manitoba government recently announced that as of January 29, 2021, the province will be tightening its borders and ordering all incoming travellers to self-isolate for 14 days upon arrival. Customers travelling to Manitoba are asked to keep themselves informed of any changes and exemptions to provincial travel restrictions that may apply to them."

Passengers are now faced with quarantine or disembarking in Saskatchewan to connect to other locations.


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## Bob Dylan

jiml said:


> The Ocean remains on hiatus until May 15. Sleeper accommodation on the Hudson Bay service from Winnipeg is now suspended until the same date.
> 
> As anticipated by @NS VIA Fan, VIA has also posted the following warning for those travelling eastbound on the Canadian:
> "The Manitoba government recently announced that as of January 29, 2021, the province will be tightening its borders and ordering all incoming travellers to self-isolate for 14 days upon arrival. Customers travelling to Manitoba are asked to keep themselves informed of any changes and exemptions to provincial travel restrictions that may apply to them."
> 
> Passengers are now faced with quarantine or disembarking in Saskatchewan to connect to other locations.


So basically, every Province in Canada requires a Quarantine when someone crosses the Provincal Border to another Province?


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## WWW

In your quest for travel by train plane or other means - consider that this is the winter of Shakespeares (covid virus 19) discontent !
This is not the time to think travel across frozen tundra - extreme sub-zero windchill factors - and frightful frozen misadventures.
Stay home - hunker down - keep warm - global warming will occur and things will get better - perhaps like marriage vows - or worse ! 
LOL
Seriously I am looking forward to travel - this is probably going to happen late summer after all the vaccinations and mutations of
the virus have run the course - we have licked small pox and polio - covid you are going down for the count with frozen medicine !


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## NS VIA Fan

Bob Dylan said:


> So basically, every Province in Canada requires a Quarantine when someone crosses the Provincal Border to another Province?



No....you can still go from say Alberta to BC for a Ski trip. Even as a resident of Nova Scotia with our travel restrictions I can go to Ontario or BC but when I return home I have to quarantine for 14 days. (but would I travel?....NO!)

Below is a good site. It's constantly being updated and will probably be again today with those changes now for Manitoba.






Where Can I Travel Right Now? - Canadian Travel & Tourism Roundtable







time-to-travel.ca


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## jiml

The problem here has been inconsistency between the provinces. I can't help thinking that if the Feds had imposed a uniform strategy modelled on the "Atlantic bubble" or Australia, we might not be in the mess we're in now.

They are expected to further restrict travel outside the country however:


Trudeau to announce new measures to restrict travel abroad during COVID-19 pandemic


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## WWW

This just in:

*Government and Canada's main airlines agree to suspend service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations until April 30*


Last Update: 1/29/2021 11:44:13 AM

TORONTO (AP) — Government and Canada's main airlines agree to suspend service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations until April 30.

Copyright 2021 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without permission.


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## jiml

WWW said:


> This just in:
> 
> *Government and Canada's main airlines agree to suspend service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations until April 30*
> 
> 
> Last Update: 1/29/2021 11:44:13 AM
> 
> TORONTO (AP) — Government and Canada's main airlines agree to suspend service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations until April 30.
> 
> Copyright 2021 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without permission.


Well that's one way to limit out-of-country travel. This is a funny development only days after Canada's major charter airline (now part of Air Canada) announced suspension of all their vacation routes from Toronto, but maintaining their routes from Montreal to Mexico and the Caribbean. Oops.


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## Mailliw

Are they still allowing flights to repatriat Canadian citizens abroad?


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> Are they still allowing flights to repatriat Canadian citizens abroad?


Sort of a "wait and see" on that one. They had certainly threatened to strand people who had left the country unnecessarily, but I think that would be hard to support both legally and ethically. OTOH, whether air carriers want to fly empty planes down south to retrieve them without a financial incentive is anyone's guess.


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## Exvalley

jiml said:


> Well that's one way to limit out-of-country travel. This is a funny development only days after Canada's major charter airline (now part of Air Canada) announced suspension of all their vacation routes from Toronto, but maintaining their routes from Montreal to Mexico and the Caribbean. Oops.


Just to clarify, Air Transat is not yet part of Air Canada. They are still awaiting regulatory approvals.


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## jiml

Exvalley said:


> Just to clarify, Air Transat is not yet part of Air Canada. They are still awaiting regulatory approvals.


As you've mentioned several times, however it is a formality that has not prevented the two from moving ahead with some logistical arrangements. The only thing that's holding it up is the Feds being busy with other concerns:








Federal cabinet will rule on Air Canada and Air Transat merger in January


Transport Minister Marc Garneau has been coy about the public interest review that his department has been undertaking after the Competition Bureau warned the deal would be bad for consumers




www.theglobeandmail.com


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## jiml

Mailliw said:


> Are they still allowing flights to repatriat Canadian citizens abroad?


All returns must be complete by Sunday when flights will halt. Passengers returning will be required to quarantine in airport hotels for 3 days at their own expense. 


Canada suspends sun flights, insists on COVID tests, quarantine for air travellers



Anyone stranded in Mexico or the Caribbean after Sunday would still have the option of flying back through the US, which now requires a negative test pre-flight, and the airlines are "working with" customers to make arrangements for dates later than Sunday. It's important to note that the major Canadian airlines have alliances with US carriers.


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## Exvalley

jiml said:


> As you've mentioned several times, however it is a formality that has not prevented the two from moving ahead with some logistical arrangements. The only thing that's holding it up is the Feds being busy with other concerns:


You are also forgetting the European review:








Press corner


Highlights, press releases and speeches




ec.europa.eu





I would not call approval a "formality" when Canada's Commissioner has determined that the proposed merger is likely to result in substantial anti‑competitive effects. It would not surprise me if approval is ultimately given, but nobody can say that it is a sure thing.

The salient point is that Air Transat is not "now part of Air Canada" and is being run independently from Air Canada. Neither airline wants to invoke an antitrust complaint while the merger is pending review.

Believe me... as a person who holds a large voucher with Air Transat, I would very much like the merger to be over and done with. I trust their solvency much more as Air Canada than as a standalone Air Transat.


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## Bob Dylan

WWW said:


> This just in:
> 
> *Government and Canada's main airlines agree to suspend service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations until April 30*
> 
> 
> Last Update: 1/29/2021 11:44:13 AM
> 
> TORONTO (AP) — Government and Canada's main airlines agree to suspend service to Mexico and all Caribbean destinations until April 30.
> 
> Copyright 2021 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without permission.


Our President needs to do this too! 

Half measures dont work in War and this is a War against Sickness and Death!!!


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## Exvalley

I am very curious to see what happens with rates once all of this pent up demand for travel is unleashed.


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## Bob Dylan

Exvalley said:


> I am very curious to see what happens with rates once all of this pent up demand for travel is unleashed.


Supply and Demand Rules the World!!


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## Gemuser

jiml said:


> The problem here has been inconsistency between the provinces. I can't help thinking that if the Feds had imposed a uniform strategy modelled on the "Atlantic bubble" or Australia, we might not be in the mess we're in now.


Don't quote Australia as an example! While our responce international travel was pretty good, interstate travel is a mess! With different states doing exactly like the Canidian provinces are, with the same resultant confusion!


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## jiml

Gemuser said:


> Don't quote Australia as an example! While our responce international travel was pretty good, interstate travel is a mess! With different states doing exactly like the Canidian provinces are, with the same resultant confusion!


That's discouraging, and not quite what gets reported. Thanks for the update!


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