# 2016 NARP Meeting News?



## Philly Amtrak Fan (Oct 16, 2016)

Anybody at the NARP meeting in Denver? Any news or interesting discussions?


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## Acela150 (Oct 16, 2016)

Well keep in mind that a few AU members are heavily involved in NARP. Charlie is one of them. I know for a fact he was splitting time between the two this weekend.

He will gladly update us when he gets some free time.


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## jis (Oct 17, 2016)

Phew! I am off the hook. Charlie, over to you. Besides you'll be home before I even start on my way home from Denver.

We were told that the Viewliner Diners start rolling out of CAF mid-November when I asked whether the delivery of the Viewliners was part of the performance metrics for the first year for Mr. Moorman.


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## Mystic River Dragon (Oct 17, 2016)

jis--

Does that mean rollout, then testing on different trains like the prototype [sorry, can't remember its number] diner, then a few more months before we, as passengers, get to eat in them?

Or rollout as some will be completely ready for passengers and added to trains in mid-November? Thanks for clarifying  .


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 17, 2016)

Did not attend the NARP meeting, but Charlie was talking about the up and coming Drop car from the Southwest Chief to Pueblo CO experiment while at the AU dinner.

Still scratching my head on this one. If you look at a map, you would think La Junta to Pueblo is a bus route, if your running a car off the SWC let's run it from La Junta to Pueblo to Colorado Springs and end in Denver proper.

But then it's going to be short term experiment, and Puebla got the backing from Colorado to do it. Just seem a little short of a good idea.


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## jis (Oct 17, 2016)

Mystic River Dragon said:


> jis--
> 
> Does that mean rollout, then testing on different trains like the prototype [sorry, can't remember its number] diner, then a few more months before we, as passengers, get to eat in them?
> 
> Or rollout as some will be completely ready for passengers and added to trains in mid-November? Thanks for clarifying  .


The latter. Actual delivery for acceptance testing is rumored to be around the 1st of November.
Though I would refrain from counting the chicken until they actually hatch


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## jis (Oct 17, 2016)

Just-Thinking-51 said:


> Did not attend the NARP meeting, but Charlie was talking about the up and coming Drop car from the Southwest Chief to Pueblo CO experiment while at the AU dinner.
> 
> Still scratching my head on this one. If you look at a map, you would think La Junta to Pueblo is a bus route, if your running a car off the SWC let's run it from La Junta to Pueblo to Colorado Springs and end in Denver proper.
> 
> But then it's going to be short term experiment, and Puebla got the backing from Colorado to do it. Just seem a little short of a good idea.


It was clearly stated that this was a first step towards eventually rerouting the entire SWC via Pueblo. There at present are no plans for running anything on the joint line between Pueblo and Denver. C-DOT has a long EIS plan in its work plan and anything involving the joint line will follow that activity and inevitably will be expensive.


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## CHamilton (Oct 17, 2016)

Guess I really am off the hook. jis and Just-Thinking-51 have shared most of the news. 

The speculation front was a lively as ever, but I think it's fair to say that most of us were feeling more positive and hopeful about the future of passenger rail than we have been for a while.

But the upcoming elections for officials at all levels will make an enormous difference. The meeting underscored how important it is to elect people who care about, and are willing to support, passenger rail. The improvements to the SWC described above would not have happened without the grassroots work of the Southwest Chief Coalition and people like the city manager of Garden City, Kansas.

So ask your local candidates to support passenger rail and local transit connections. And when they get elected, make yourself available as an expert on these issues. They'll appreciate folks like us who can give honest appraisals of the complicated rail business.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 17, 2016)

The main thing I want from Amtrak is a daily SL with better calling times in SAS. Is that a reasonable goal achievable with practical solutions within the current realities of Amtrak? I honestly have no idea.


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## jis (Oct 17, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The main thing I want from Amtrak is a daily SL with better calling times in SAS. Is that a reasonable goal achievable with practical solutions within the current realities of Amtrak? I honestly have no idea.


I was surprised to find the lack of enthusiasm to start a daily Sunset project among the Texas contingent. If they are not going to take the lead, hardly anyone else will. The ones I talked to appeared to be more enthusiastic about a daily NOL to at least SAS and perhaps even EL Paso service than the rest of the way to LA. But fortunately it appears that the NARP staff and Board might try to light a fire under a few and see what happens.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 17, 2016)

jis said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > The main thing I want from Amtrak is a daily SL with better calling times in SAS. Is that a reasonable goal achievable with practical solutions within the current realities of Amtrak? I honestly have no idea.
> ...


Is it really that surprising? Any time an inquiry about increasing/expanding the Sunset Limited's frequency/route shows up on AU it's generally met with resistance, antipathy, or even contempt. Why would reasonable people spend their time actively supporting something which they believe has little or no basis in reality? If you look at passenger numbers for SAS they have been plummeting ever since the schedule was changed. So wherever that support is eventually going to come from I doubt it's coming from here. Rather than lighting a fire under us maybe NARP should focus on selling us on the idea that these negatives can be addressed in a practical manner without having to move the Sun and Earth first.


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## CHamilton (Oct 17, 2016)

Rail advocacy in Texas seems to be in a rebuilding mode at the moment. Texas Rail Advocates does pretty well, but one of the NARP reps is working on reviving TXARP to serve the whole state. Which is a challenge, given its size and diversity of interests. But we will probably be hearing more soon. DA, if you or anyone else is interested in helping, I'll be happy to connect you.


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## Philly Amtrak Fan (Oct 17, 2016)

jis said:


> Devil's Advocate said:
> 
> 
> > The main thing I want from Amtrak is a daily SL with better calling times in SAS. Is that a reasonable goal achievable with practical solutions within the current realities of Amtrak? I honestly have no idea.
> ...


Ideally you'd start by making part of the SL daily aka Hoosier State/Lynchburger rather than the whole route. Any daily service along the route is better than nothing. But that becomes a state responsibility instead of Amtrak/Congress (not that they're any better when it comes to spending money).

When it comes to adding trains/services, the answer is ...

If less than 750 miles ... Ask your state.

If more than 750 miles ... Probably either ask your state or flat out no.


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## jis (Oct 17, 2016)

Another significant news is that the National Train Day is going to be reinstated under the auspices of NARP. NARP and Amtrak have come to an understanding whereby Amtrak will let NARP use the Amtrak assets that were developed in support of the National Train Day, NARP will engage with Amtrak, other passenger operating agencies and various state and local organizations to coordinate arrangements for the National Train Day. Hopefully this will work out better for all.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 17, 2016)

CHamilton said:


> Rail advocacy in Texas seems to be in a rebuilding mode at the moment. Texas Rail Advocates does pretty well, but one of the NARP reps is working on reviving TXARP to serve the whole state. Which is a challenge, given its size and diversity of interests. But we will probably be hearing more soon. DA, if you or anyone else is interested in helping, I'll be happy to connect you.


What would sell me on increased involvement would be a qualified sanity check on the goals I've mentioned above. If my goals are deemed reasonable and attainable then I am willing to put in that effort regardless of our eventual success or failure. However, if my goals are impractical or unrealistic then I have little interest in fighting an impossible battle. Even though we joke about politicians being idiots they are experts at identifying the weakest link in your argument and using it to unravel the rest of your position. If you don't know what you're talking about and if you don't fully believe in your own methodology then they will be able to pick up on that. Once they know the political score they can quickly deflect your criticisms and dissolve your arguments with ease. Being an advocate is hard thankless work so it's important to know what you're getting into before you get on board. Just my personal opinion of course, but this wouldn't be my first rodeo, so to speak.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 19, 2016)

Perhaps a visual aid would help spark further dialog?




If there is a genuine desire to build up more advocacy in TX then SAS would seem to represent a substantially deteriorating location worthy of being targeted.


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## jis (Oct 19, 2016)

AAF is going to get delivery of the first train set late October or early November. Amtrak will deliver the set to AAF from Sacramento. This was mentioned by Rusty Roberts of AAF at the NARP Meeting.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 19, 2016)

Message received loud and clear.


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## Gulfwind2 (Oct 19, 2016)

Texas Central was represented at the NARP meeting by Travis Kelly, who ordinarily is tasked with speaking at public hearings in Texas to distribute information regarding the project. TC has boldly announced that it plans to begin constructing its 100% grade-separated right-of-way in 2018 with 8-car Shinkansen trainsets making (ballpark figure) 34 trips a day between Dallas and Houston in the projected 2022 service debut. We could see a great deal of additional support for a daily Sunset in the event that the TC's plans go off without a hitch. A daily Sunset could act as a funnel for additional business on the TC if they wise up and actively seek to share a facility (at least something to the effect of a European style cross-the-street transfer) with Amtrak. It's just my 2 cents but currently there isn't any political pressure to seek daily trains from New Orleans to LA in Texas simply because it's a state that isn't accustomed to train travel in the manner that the Northeast or Chicagoland are. Perhaps if the Texas Central becomes a reality, then those advocating for more conventional passenger rail service in Texas could be dealing with a much more receptive audience some years down the road.


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## jis (Oct 19, 2016)

TC plans to have stop near College Station, 20 miles away as I recall, where possibly alternate or fewer trains will stop.

Also, in side conversation with the AAF folks I learned that they are getting close to finalizing a site selection in Brevard County from among the three choices submitted by the county for a possible future station. Nothing is determined yet but I got the impression that the Rockledge site may have the inside track.


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## Palmetto (Oct 23, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> The main thing I want from Amtrak is a daily SL with better calling times in SAS. Is that a reasonable goal achievable with practical solutions within the current realities of Amtrak? I honestly have no idea.


I'd like some service in the Rio Grande Valley. TxDot has a plan, but the local MPO is clueless about it.


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## Palmetto (Oct 23, 2016)

Devil's Advocate said:


> Perhaps a visual aid would help spark further dialog?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Parking at the station would help, don't you think? It's pretty amazing to me that there isn't any, although someone on here stated they're planning to move the station and have parking at it. Any updates on that?


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## bretton88 (Oct 24, 2016)

Was there any news about Amtrak's proposed customer amenity improvements to the SL route?


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## CCC1007 (Oct 24, 2016)

bretton88 said:


> Was there any news about Amtrak's proposed customer amenity improvements to the SL route?


Could you please elaborate for those of us that haven't the slightest idea about what you mean by this?


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## Palmetto (Oct 25, 2016)

A quote from Gene Poon on Trainorders gives the details:

_This comes from NARP Houston:_

_NARP Friends -_

_Amtrak has just released SUNSET LIMITED plans to_

_1. Add Just-For-You boxed meal service at your seat priced between dining car
and snack car._

_2. Discussion of possible move to THE Sunset Station in San Antonio._

_3. Discussion of possible stop in Flatonia (I would suggest we begin planning
a trip there or invite them to join us for a meeting, with hope to continue
dialog. Their earlier request for a stop was met with impossible $ quotation from U.P.)_

_4. Breakfast-bags-to-go given to Los Angeles departing sleeper passengers._

_5. Los Angeles early boarding for all at 8:00pm on Train 2 including café car
access, plus dining car dinner for sleeping car passengers._

_6. Adding stop in Benson Arizona next year._

Someone pointed out that the San Antonio station relocation is not the Sunset station but rather the former MoPac station further west, and that was pointed out here earlier. I think the MoPac station is located just west of W. Commerce St. Devil's Advocate?

Another piece of misinformation: Benzon, AZ is already a stop on the route.


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 25, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Someone pointed out that the San Antonio station relocation is not the Sunset station but rather the former MoPac station further west, and that was pointed out here earlier. I think the MoPac station is located just west of W. Commerce St. * Devil's Advocate?*


The former MoPac station is now managed by VIA Metropolitan Transit and is located at 123 North Medina Street, San Antonio, TX 78207. If you look at Sunset Station on a map and follow Commerce Street west for about two miles you'll find the former MoPac station. I haven't seen anything recently about moving Amtrak in the near future. The old MoPac station is right across from the county jail and the area looks and feels a lot more sketchy to me than Sunset Station, especially late at night and early in the morning when Amtrak is active in San Antonio. It's also hard to see the benefit of moving to a multi-modal station if your trains arrive so late and depart so early that there are few if any buses with which to connect.

​


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 25, 2016)

Chris is correct about the great old Mopac Station being in a sketchy area, especially during the bad calling times of the Eagle and the Sunset.

Also the current Mayor is anti-rail and against any transportation improvements that don't involve roads.

As for moving back to the Sunset Station (ex-SP), the Amtrak Agent told me this weekend that it wasn't going to happen due to the high cost involved. ( the Complex is Investor owned and Rented out for Special Events).


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 25, 2016)

#1 is already in place on the Sunset.

While riding #2 from ELP-AUS this past weekend Coach Only passengers were offered a Served at your Seat Chicken Dinner for $12.

#3,4,and 5 are excellent ideas! The question is who will pay for them?

People told me it was tasty and that it was worth what they paid in comparison to the overpriced Diner and Cafe food.


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## jis (Oct 25, 2016)

Wasn't Benson a stop for the Sunset that was discontinued a while back? So this would be reinstatement of a stop.



Bob Dylan said:


> #1 is already in place on the Sunset.
> 
> While riding #2 from ELP-AUS this past weekend Coach Only passengers were offered a Served at your Seat Chicken Dinner for $12.
> 
> #3,4,and 5 are excellent ideas! The question is who will pay for them?


Dunno about 3, but 4 and 5 presumably the passengers will pay for them through slightly higher ticket prices.

I think 3 and 6 would have the same issue as to who pays for setting up and maintaining the assets associated with the stop.


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Oct 25, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> _5. Los Angeles early boarding for all at 8:00pm on Train 2 including café car_
> 
> access, plus dining car dinner for sleeping car passengers.


All for the early boarding, access to the cafe good idea.

One thinks LA has better food choices than a dinning car. So I would skip that expense of having the dinning crew report earlier in case anyone want to eat. Cafe car open at the early boarding time would be fine.


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## Palmetto (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks to the Texans for the great info, and the map! Too bad the station is in a sketchy area. There seems to be parking at it though, the lack of which at the current station was a complaint I voiced on the forum a few months ago.

Does "sketchy" translate into vagrants hanging out? Kinda doubtful, given that there's a law enforcement "residence" across the street!

Or is it simply that the jail is there?


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## JayPea (Oct 26, 2016)

I too am puzzled about the "addition" of Benson as a stop. It is a current stop and so far as I know has always been a stop on the SL route.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 26, 2016)

JayPea said:


> I too am puzzled about the "addition" of Benson as a stop. It is a current stop and so far as I know has always been a stop on the SL route.


As has been said, it was a Flagstop for many years on Amtrak. When SP ran the Route it was a Regular stop back when Steam Ruled the Rails and Benson was Booming.


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## Bob Dylan (Oct 26, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Thanks to the Texans for the great info, and the map! Too bad the station is in a sketchy area. There seems to be parking at it though, the lack of which at the current station was a complaint I voiced on the forum a few months ago.
> 
> Does "sketchy" translate into vagrants hanging out? Kinda doubtful, given that there's a law enforcement "residence" across the street!
> 
> Or is it simply that the jail is there?


In addition to the jail, it's an Industrial Area that is deserted at night, poorly lighted and San Antonio has real drug and petty crime problems in areas like this.

Also many gangs operate away from the well protected Riverwalk that is not far away from the Station.

Lots of graffiti on the buildings, broken windows and trash along the tracks and the police don't patrol this area at all.


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## Palmetto (Oct 26, 2016)

Here's the answer, then: Flip the schedules by 12 hours!


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## Carolina Special (Oct 26, 2016)

I'm taking the TE to Benson and from next month. It is the closest stop to Sierra Vista, which is where I'm actually going. So the train had better stop at Benson!


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## Devil's Advocate (Oct 27, 2016)

Palmetto said:


> Parking at the station would help, don't you think? It's pretty amazing to me that there isn't any, although someone on here stated they're planning to move the station and have parking at it. Any updates on that?


There is usually _some_ method for securing overnight parking at the current location South of Sunset Station. The specifics can vary but last time I checked you could call Staybridge Suites hotel and reserve a spot in their gated parking area for $10 per night. The available parking is limited so if you didn't reserve ahead of time you risk not having anything when you arrive.

There are some *un*approved locations where you can park for a day or two, but I probably wouldn't risk it since third party towing has become an absurdly expensive state sanctioned racket here in Texas. If your car was towed near the start of a one week trip you could find yourself paying thousands in towing fees to get your vehicle back. If your car was towed near the start of a two week vacation the total fees could potentially exceed the value of the vehicle itself. At which point the towing company could petition to take ownership of your vehicle in lieu of the exorbitant fees.


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## Palmetto (Oct 27, 2016)

Yes, I believe the Staybridge Suites is actually the best option, and at $10 per day would be considered a bargain compared to rates in many other places.


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## neroden (Nov 16, 2016)

JayPea said:


> I too am puzzled about the "addition" of Benson as a stop. It is a current stop and so far as I know has always been a stop on the SL route.


Amtrak is converting many of its flagstops into regular stops, after the ADA regulators pointed out that their flagstop designations made no sense. The ADA exempts flagstops, but it was pointed out that many of the flagstops have someone getting on or off nearly every day, and that that wasn't really the intent of the flagstop exemption. Benson might be one of those which is getting rationalized.


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## JayPea (Nov 16, 2016)

neroden said:


> JayPea said:
> 
> 
> > I too am puzzled about the "addition" of Benson as a stop. It is a current stop and so far as I know has always been a stop on the SL route.
> ...


That makes all sorts of sense. Thank you!


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## Gulfwind2 (Dec 3, 2016)

Is Amtrak converting many of its flagstops in response to the fact that their passenger traffic is generally on par with official (non-flag) stops? Or is it strictly because of blowback from its ADA lawyers?


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## Just-Thinking-51 (Dec 3, 2016)

Unknown but lawyers and insurance companies are know to make changes, tragic events are a great force of change.

The aftermath of the sinking of the Titanic. Passengers carrying ship are now required to carry lifeboat capacity equal to the people on board the ship. We don't require them to be tested in anything but flat water, but maybe someday...


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## neroden (Dec 4, 2016)

The flagstop list was really random anyway. There were only 25. After converting the flagstops which have as many passengers as the lower-volume non-flagstops, I think there were just so few flagstops left that Amtrak figured they might as well make them all compliant. Sanderson was called out by the DOJ as an example of a flagstop which should legally qualify as a flagstop, while Slidell was called out as one which shouldn't, but I think Amtrak figured it was simpler to just try to fix all of them.

I suspect that occasional special-event stops like NYS Fairgrounds will still be subject to the flagstop rules.


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## Gulfwind2 (Dec 5, 2016)

neroden said:


> The flagstop list was really random anyway. There were only 25. After converting the flagstops which have as many passengers as the lower-volume non-flagstops, I think there were just so few flagstops left that Amtrak figured they might as well make them all compliant. Sanderson was called out by the DOJ as an example of a flagstop which should legally qualify as a flagstop, while Slidell was called out as one which shouldn't, but I think Amtrak figured it was simpler to just try to fix all of them.
> 
> I suspect that occasional special-event stops like NYS Fairgrounds will still be subject to the flagstop rules.


Fair enough. For a trip-weekly train (especially one that serves places such as Thurmond, WV and Sanderson, TX) I cannot seem to understand why the money would be spent to refit a platform which sees a train less than each day, and then sees a passenger or two on perhaps every other train. I have noticed in my years of riding long distance trains that some places such as Slidell, Hammond, Picayune, and so on, are simply not worth being noted as flag stops because more people today use them since pre-Amtrak days in some cases!


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