# August 1969 I took the Mohawk Airlines cargo shuttle from Boston to Detroit.



## Fenway (Mar 27, 2022)

In August 1969 as a poor college student, I had an interesting 48-hour experience. 

It started with the Mohawk Airlines 'cargo shuttle' that left Boston around 8 PM with stops in Hartford, Albany, Syracuse, Buffalo, Cleveland, and Detroit. With the half-price for young people back then, it was cheap. 

I was visiting a college friend who was working overnight at CKLW radio in Windsor

Landed at Detroit Metro around 1 AM and back then Greyhound offered shuttle service to downtown and then I took a cab to Windsor to see my friend. 

Crashed at his place, saw a ballgame at Tiger Stadium, and then took the overnight train from Detroit to Chicago.

I was a streetwise kid from Boston but the Michigan Central station was truly frightening that night. The ticket office was closed, and when I boarded the conductor just told me not to worry about the fare.

Union Station Chicago in 1969 was in sad shape as well

Flew back that night to Manchester, NH on Northeast Airlines fr0m Midway.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 27, 2022)

Interesting. Do you remember what kind of plane Mohawk was using for the cargo run? Some kind of turboprop I suspect. I recall Mohawk had a pretty bad reputation, one of their ex pilots wrote a book about them called "safety last". I guess thing got better when they merged with Allegheny to form US Air.


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## Fenway (Mar 27, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> Interesting. Do you remember what kind of plane Mohawk was using for the cargo run? Some kind of turboprop I suspect. I recall Mohawk had a pretty bad reputation, one of their ex pilots wrote a book about them called "safety last". I guess thing got better when they merged with Allegheny to form US Air.



It was a BAC-111




The flight was uneventful. One thing I remember is back then passengers were only allowed 2 drinks per takeoff and landing so on this flight the beverage cart was busy.

I remember another night I flew Mohawk from Toronto to Boston. The airline was not allowed tofly nonstop as Air Canada had a monopoly on the route so Mohawk flew nonstop from Toronto to Keene, NH and then on to Boston.

My roommate was picking me up at Logan and the flight was late and the Mohawk people went home and on the TV screen they said the flight status was 'missing'. My roommate was convinced the plane had crashed. When it did land it took a while for Eastern to unload it.

It was an interesting airline.


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## PVD (Mar 27, 2022)

maybe a Convair 580, but I'd have to look at the way back machine to be sure... There was an old joke about passengers getting off a connection at LaGuardia, rushing to the Marine Air Terminal for Mohawk, and getting there and finding out the flights were now leaving as Alleghany from the main terminal, until all the USAir signs went up 6 or 7 years later.


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## PVD (Mar 27, 2022)

Looks like their Convairs were 440 piston powered, turbo prop was likely an FH-227, Fairchild Hiller licensed version of the Fokker F-27, great plane for a view on a clear day because it was a high wing.


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## Willbridge (Mar 27, 2022)

On my 1971 train ride home from Fort Dix to Oregon I met a railfan from Baltimore who boarded the _Lakeshore _at Buffalo, also heading for the Northwest. He said that he had flown "Slowhawk" to catch up with the train.

I had never heard that slur before. We in Oregon, of course, had F-27's on "Worst Coast Airlines."


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## PVD (Mar 27, 2022)

I think those F-27 may have also been FH licensed production, and not Dutch but I'm not sure.


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## Fenway (Mar 28, 2022)

What is really sad is regional air service no longer exists in New England.

You would think Bangor/Boston service would be viable but no.....


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## lstone19 (Mar 28, 2022)

AmtrakMaineiac said:


> I guess thing got better when they merged with Allegheny to form US Air.



The merger with Allegheny and the name change to US Air were separate events. Allegheny (Agony Airlines) acquired Mohawk (Slo-hawk) in 1972. The name change to US Air was in 1979 (which I remember from flying on an Allegheny plane that had already been repainted but I had not yet heard of the change nor was it officially in effect). The name change reflected their expansion into a nationwide carrier and a desire to get away from a regional name. Despite the name change, US Air continued to use the old AL code for a few more years before switching to US. With many people abbreviating US Air as USA, the wags said it stood for "Unfortunately still Allegheny"


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 28, 2022)

PVD said:


> maybe a Convair 580, but I'd have to look at the way back machine to be sure... There was an old joke about passengers getting off a connection at LaGuardia, rushing to the Marine Air Terminal for Mohawk, and getting there and finding out the flights were now leaving as Alleghany from the main terminal, until all the USAir signs went up 6 or 7 years later.


Allegheny was flying Convair 580s in the late 1960s on the route Allentown PA - New Haven CT - Boston which I used a few times when I was attending school in Bethlehem PA. I recall landings and takeoffs at Tweed airport were "interesting" with the mountain at the end of the runway


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 28, 2022)

Fenway said:


> What is really sad is regional air service no longer exists in New England.
> 
> You would think Bangor/Boston service would be viable but no.....
> 
> View attachment 27751


Yes it is strange. There is service via Cape Air to Bar Harbor for those folks with the million dollar summer homes. Boston to Bangor is served by Concord Coach about a 4 hour trip. Greyhound used to serve this route also, not sure if it still does.


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## MARC Rider (Mar 28, 2022)

Back in the 1970s something called "Executive Airlines" that become Air New England ran a route from Logan to Portland, Auburn-Lewiston, Augusta. Waterville and Bangor. I flew up to Auburn-Lewiston on a Twin Otter. The next summer, my girlfriend booked a ticket, but when we got to Auburn-Lewiston to pick her up, the airport was closed, as the runway was being dug up for some kind of repairs. Nobody at the terminal, either. We ran down to Portland, where they finally told us that she had been rebooked to Augusta. We got up to Augusta in time to watch her stumble down the stairs of the DC-3 that flew her up from Boston.

Nowadays, people flying up to the cabin just fly to Portland, sometimes we fly up to Manchester, NH, as there are more flights from BWI. It's kind of ironic that the best way to fly up to the most northeastern part of the country is on "Southwest Airlines."


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## Rex Block (Mar 28, 2022)

Fenway said:


> It was a BAC-111
> 
> View attachment 27742
> 
> ...



Looking at the route map brings back a lot of memories working for USAir in the 90s. Commuter service was still pretty regular to a lot of those places through the 90s -- Glens Falls, Massena, Ogdensburg, Watertown, Saranac Lake even. It was all with Beechcrafts, Dash-7s, and Dash-8s on spoke-and-hub operations, and very few multi-hop trips. The BAC-111's must have been gone by the time I got there. Multi-hops began to fade in earnest in the 90s with the advent of fortress hubs. Most of the upstate NY stations were served from LGA, PHL, or BWI, some from BOS. Most of those routes are gone now, given over to Cape Air and other small operators. 

I didn't know Keene (NH) had a field.


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## basketmaker (Mar 28, 2022)

MARC Rider said:


> Back in the 1970s something called "Executive Airlines" that become Air New England ran a route from Logan to Portland, Auburn-Lewiston, Augusta. Waterville and Bangor. I flew up to Auburn-Lewiston on a Twin Otter. The next summer, my girlfriend booked a ticket, but when we got to Auburn-Lewiston to pick her up, the airport was closed, as the runway was being dug up for some kind of repairs. Nobody at the terminal, either. We ran down to Portland, where they finally told us that she had been rebooked to Augusta. We got up to Augusta in time to watch her stumble down the stairs of the DC-3 that flew her up from Boston.
> 
> Nowadays, people flying up to the cabin just fly to Portland, sometimes we fly up to Manchester, NH, as there are more flights from BWI. It's kind of ironic that the best way to fly up to the most northeastern part of the country is on "Southwest Airlines."


I worked for Executive Airlines in Miami for a while in the 70's but sadly they went under. Then 5 years as station manager for Provincetown-Boston Airline Naples Airlines Div. at Miami.


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## Dakota 400 (Mar 28, 2022)

PVD said:


> Fokker F-27, great plane for a view on a clear day because it was a high wing.



Flew on one those from Dayton to Pittsburgh on US Air. The view really was excellent, but, the fuselage was so close to the ground that it provided a rather "exciting" to me view as we landed.


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## lstone19 (Mar 28, 2022)

Rex Block said:


> Looking at the route map brings back a lot of memories working for USAir in the 90s. Commuter service was still pretty regular to a lot of those places through the 90s -- Glens Falls, Massena, Ogdensburg, Watertown, Saranac Lake even. It was all with Beechcrafts, Dash-7s, and Dash-8s on spoke-and-hub operations, and very few multi-hop trips. The BAC-111's must have been gone by the time I got there.



I wish GFL (Glens Falls) lasted into the 90s. I think service there was gone by sometime in the 70s. I flew a light plane into GFL in 1992 and in the terminal, there was still evidence that there had been an Allegheny ticket counter (signage gone but enough paint still there).

BAC-111s were similar to a small DC-9 - twin tail-mounted engines with a T-tail. My logs say I was on 10 BAC-111 flights totaling 1,835 miles so none of them long flights. Digging deeper:
4/1979 ITH-ELM-PIT
4/1979 PIT-ELM-ITH
8/1979 DCA-ALB (GFL would have been nice for this one)
8/1979 DCA-ALB (GFL still would have been nice)
8/1979 ALB-DCA (and for this one too)
1/1980 PIT-CLE
8/1980 CLE-BUF
8/1980 PIT-CLE
And that's 10. Longest was ALB-DCA at 318 miles; shortest was ITH-ELM at 32 miles. It would be ten years before I'd fly US again (excluding former PSA routes in the west) by which time the BAC-111 was long gone.


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## PVD (Mar 28, 2022)

one of the worst flights I ever had was on a BAC 111. I went up to Buffalo for a day tour of SUNY Buffalo, and went up on an AA DC-10 (still never figured out why that plane went to BUF) came home in a nasty storm in an Allegheny BAC-111, people getting airsick, sinks didn't have water, just a box of wash and dries. Felt sorry for the 2 FA.


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## lstone19 (Mar 29, 2022)

PVD said:


> I went up to Buffalo for a day tour of SUNY Buffalo, and went up on an AA DC-10 (still never figured out why that plane went to BUF)



A lot of that is utilization flying meaning the plane flies in a market that doesn't really need it or it doesn't fly at all for those hours.

A good example of what causes this is mid-morning departures. As a very simplified example, let's say you want a transcontinental capable plane departing LAX at 9am heading to JFK and returning back to LAX. Typical times for that would be depart LAX at 9am, arrive JFK at 5pm, depart JFK at 6pm, arrive LAX at 9pm. And that's all you get out of the plane that day unless you send it on short missions at the beginning and end of the day. So instead of overnight at LAX, maybe you send it to SMF (Sacramento) departing LAX at 10pm and arriving SMF at 11:30pm. In the morning, depart SMF at 6:30am and into LAX at 8am and ready to go to JFK.

PVD didn't say where he flew to BUF from but I'm guessing it might have been LGA in which case if it was an evening flight, it might have been merely to get the plane out of LGA due to limited space to park planes overnight.


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## Exvalley (Mar 29, 2022)

This thread reminded me of Pilgrim Airlines. I used to regularly see their Twin Otters flying over my school. I am surprised that the two route maps posted in this thread include Keene, NH. That's a pretty small town for commercial service.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 29, 2022)

Trans Texas Airlines, aka Tree Top Airlines, and Texas International which morphed into Continential , used to fly DC-3s that serviced several really Small Towns such as Alpine, Texarkana, College Station,San Angelo,Harlingen,Del Rio etc.

I once flew on a Joy Ride Trip between Austin and Houston on a Bargain Ticket that flew to San Antonio, Del Rio,Alpine,Midland-Odessa,San Angelo,Ft Worth,Dallas,College Staion and finally Houston.

Long Day but for $29 I thought it was Worth the Money!


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## Rex Block (Mar 29, 2022)

basketmaker said:


> I worked for Executive Airlines in Miami for a while in the 70's but sadly they went under. Then 5 years as station manager for Provincetown-Boston Airline Naples Airlines Div. at Miami.



The old TV show "Wings" always made me think of PBA. And vice-versa.


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## basketmaker (Mar 29, 2022)

Rex Block said:


> The old TV show "Wings" always made me think of PBA. And vice-versa.


That plane (N121PB) was a PBA C-402 and is still flying for Cape Air today.


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## basketmaker (Mar 29, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> Trans Texas Airlines, aka Tree Top Airlines, and Texas International which morphed into Continential , used to fly DC-3s that serviced several really Small Towns such as Alpine, Texarkana, College Station,San Angelo,Harlingen,Del Rio etc.
> 
> I once flew on a Joy Ride Trip between Austin and Houston on a Bargain Ticket that flew to San Antonio, Del Rio,Alpine,Midland-Odessa,San Angelo,Ft Worth,Dallas,College Staion and finally Houston.
> 
> Long Day but for $29 I thought it was Worth the Money!


Several of TTA's DC-3s were purchased by PBA and fully overhauled and refurbished and flew many years with them. A couple are still going strong. One of them N136PB (now N18121) has the highest flying time of any aircraft. Also one of them (N34PB) was sold to Brietling Watch and did an around the world tour in 2017.


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## trainman74 (Mar 29, 2022)

basketmaker said:


> Then 5 years as station manager for Provincetown-Boston Airline Naples Airlines Div. at Miami.



Does this look familiar? (This is the one PBA timetable I have in my collection -- I never actually flew them, but I must have just grabbed this in Tampa from their ticket counter or a gate.)


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## basketmaker (Mar 29, 2022)

trainman74 said:


> Does this look familiar? (This is the one PBA timetable I have in my collection -- I never actually flew them, but I must have just grabbed this in Tampa from their ticket counter or a gate.)


This one is well after my tenure (1970-1975) with them. We only operated between Miami and Naples and between Tampa and Naples. Long before the YS-11 (pictured) came online. We had 7 DC-3s, 2 Lockheed 10 Electras, a couple of Piper Aztecs and Cherokee Sixes and a brand new Cessna 402 (N402PB). After Ol' Man Van (or Nutsy as he also called) retired the sons (Johnno and Peter) took over and expanded and bought planes like they were going out of style. And expanded routes in both the southern division up to New Orleans. As well as the northern division all over New England where it was only Boston to Provincetown in my day. And the new routes included Newark. It was a shame they boys went and expanded too quickly and killed a fantastic family run airline. Planes and crews would transfer twice a year between the north in the summer and south in the winter. That included the office and all the file cabinets and so on. Another thing when the Ol' Man ran it every aircraft was owned outright. He paid cash for everything. The boys ran debt up to their eyeballs. I only made $2.00/hour doing everything (including flight attendant) except pilot. And I wish I could go back and do it all again!


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## Asher (Mar 29, 2022)

basketmaker said:


> That plane (N121PB) was a PBA C-402 and is still flying for Cape Air today.


Good plane.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Mar 30, 2022)

Bob Dylan said:


> Trans Texas Airlines, aka Tree Top Airlines, and Texas International which morphed into Continential , used to fly DC-3s that serviced several really Small Towns such as Alpine, Texarkana, College Station,San Angelo,Harlingen,Del Rio etc.
> 
> I once flew on a Joy Ride Trip between Austin and Houston on a Bargain Ticket that flew to San Antonio, Del Rio,Alpine,Midland-Odessa,San Angelo,Ft Worth,Dallas,College Staion and finally Houston.
> 
> Long Day but for $29 I thought it was Worth the Money!


Yes I remember flying TIA on the route from DAL (Love Field) to ABQ to get to Clovis NM where I was stationed. Stopped at some small places besides Clovis such as Witchita Fslls and Midland/Odessa. Clovis didn't even have a tower, nearby Cannon AFB handled Approach Control although no real navigational aids at the airport itself.


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## lstone19 (Mar 30, 2022)

basketmaker said:


> That plane (N121PB) was a PBA C-402 and is still flying for Cape Air today.



Ah, Cape Air. Unknown to many, between 2004 and 2018, Cape Air flew as United Express between Guam, Rota, and Saipan. Quite a distance from Cape Cod. Two planes there to support a schedule needing just one which became a problem when one was down for scheduled maintenance and then the other broke. Reporting on that mess when it happened was part of my airline job.

In other interesting airline route tidbits, when I moved to the Bay Area in 1981, I found United had a milk run flight (a predecessor to today's Essential Air Service) running SFO-Reno-Elko-Ely-SLC-DEN and reverse.


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## PVD (Mar 30, 2022)

lstone19 said:


> A lot of that is utilization flying meaning the plane flies in a market that doesn't really need it or it doesn't fly at all for those hours.
> 
> A good example of what causes this is mid-morning departures. As a very simplified example, let's say you want a transcontinental capable plane departing LAX at 9am heading to JFK and returning back to LAX. Typical times for that would be depart LAX at 9am, arrive JFK at 5pm, depart JFK at 6pm, arrive LAX at 9pm. And that's all you get out of the plane that day unless you send it on short missions at the beginning and end of the day. So instead of overnight at LAX, maybe you send it to SMF (Sacramento) departing LAX at 10pm and arriving SMF at 11:30pm. In the morning, depart SMF at 6:30am and into LAX at 8am and ready to go to JFK.
> 
> PVD didn't say where he flew to BUF from but I'm guessing it might have been LGA in which case if it was an evening flight, it might have been merely to get the plane out of LGA due to limited space to park planes overnight.


It was lga, but it was a 7 am flight, that was what surprised me.


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## basketmaker (Mar 30, 2022)

lstone19 said:


> Ah, Cape Air. Unknown to many, between 2004 and 2018, Cape Air flew as United Express between Guam, Rota, and Saipan. Quite a distance from Cape Cod. Two planes there to support a schedule needing just one which became a problem when one was down for scheduled maintenance and then the other broke. Reporting on that mess when it happened was part of my airline job.
> 
> In other interesting airline route tidbits, when I moved to the Bay Area in 1981, I found United had a milk run flight (a predecessor to today's Essential Air Service) running SFO-Reno-Elko-Ely-SLC-DEN and reverse.


Yeah Cape is scattered all over. Up in New England mainly. Down in Puerto Rico. Out of Nashville. Up in Montana I think. A couple of planes and crews in each region. They are still flying several of the old PBA C-402s. They are upgrading their fleet with new Tecnam PC12s.


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## Willbridge (Mar 31, 2022)

lstone19 said:


> Ah, Cape Air. ....................
> 
> In other interesting airline route tidbits, when I moved to the Bay Area in 1981, I found United had a milk run flight (a predecessor to today's Essential Air Service) running SFO-Reno-Elko-Ely-SLC-DEN and reverse.


A friend of mine had to come near to arm-wrestling the United agent in SLC to fly on that milk run to SFO. She kept explaining to him that they had a faster flight that lapped that one. She couldn't understand that anyone would want to make that trip. It was a favorite of United's applications to the CAB to discontinue the service.

Of course, there were a lot of things like that before deregulation. North Platte (first field in the U.S. to have a lighted runway) has a concrete runway to handle old Frontier Airlines 737's. Western Airlines service to Cut Bank relied on a military field, and so forth. And then there were the Canadian lines - the only through flight from Edmonton to Seattle in 1977 made a few stops, but it had the lowest fare and was the only single carrier service. We made the Edmonton <> Seattle part of this and for $5 stopped over a day in Victoria.


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## Fenway (Mar 31, 2022)

The only plane that I was fearful of flying was this back in 1981.


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## lstone19 (Mar 31, 2022)

PVD said:


> It was lga, but it was a 7 am flight, that was what surprised me.



Well, that is kind of odd. Could be driven by maintenance needs (needed it at LGA overnight - perhaps LGA was one of the stations that did weekly and monthly checks on the DC-10).

In what no doubt seemed odd scheduling, United had bought two 747-222Bs which were used on JFK-NRT. JFK was their maintenance home port (the schedule had a short turn at NRT and an overnight at JFK). Once United had enough 747-400s, JFK-NRT was changed to the -400s and the -222Bs moved over to fly EWR-NRT. But JFK was still the maintenance home for the 222Bs so two days a week (Tue/Wed arrivals IIRC) the 222Bs went to JFK while the 400s went to EWR. So every 6th or 8th night, each 222B was at JFK overnight.

I did get to fly on a -222B. Once a year, they both went to SFO for a month for their annual check. While one was in the hangar, the other flew a daily SFO-ORD-SFO round-trip which kept the schedule balanced (the 747-400 was a different type plane for the pilots than the 747-100/200 was and a pilot was only qualified in one type at a time).


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## west point (Mar 31, 2022)

BAC=111s. UGH, It was being on a teeter totter. Jump seat to back seat all the same. Only airplane that almost got airsick on.
Mohawk might have used martin 404s. EAL was able to drop the upper NY routes when Mohawk agreed to take the routes over. Was told that Mohawk got several 404s from EAL but cannot confirm that. Just know all EAL 404s were gone by late 1965. EAL settled on using their 40 Convair 440s for other short distance routes. 

As I recall the first Convair 440s were not converted to CV580s until 1957 - 1968 due to shortage of Allison 501D-13 turbo props engines that went on new Lockheed L-188 Electra's, air force C-130s & Navy P-3s. 580s - 4000HP MAX TO each engine on take off as compared to 440's recip's R2800 - 2400 HP. 

C-130s built today have better than 6000HP each engine. That the reason for the different props with more blades on those C-130 air craft.


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## PVD (Mar 31, 2022)

lstone19 said:


> Well, that is kind of odd. Could be driven by maintenance needs (needed it at LGA overnight - perhaps LGA was one of the stations that did weekly and monthly checks on the DC-10).
> 
> In what no doubt seemed odd scheduling, United had bought two 747-222Bs which were used on JFK-NRT. JFK was their maintenance home port (the schedule had a short turn at NRT and an overnight at JFK). Once United had enough 747-400s, JFK-NRT was changed to the -400s and the -222Bs moved over to fly EWR-NRT. But JFK was still the maintenance home for the 222Bs so two days a week (Tue/Wed arrivals IIRC) the 222Bs went to JFK while the 400s went to EWR. So every 6th or 8th night, each 222B was at JFK overnight.
> 
> I did get to fly on a -222B. Once a year, they both went to SFO for a month for their annual check. While one was in the hangar, the other flew a daily SFO-ORD-SFO round-trip which kept the schedule balanced (the 747-400 was a different type plane for the pilots than the 747-100/200 was and a pilot was only qualified in one type at a time).


I never quite figured it out, AA did lots of maintenance at JFK, but did have some indoor maint space at LGA but not for something the size of a DC-10 It was in the mid 70s, and I did not really think about things like that at the time But flying student standby at a cheap price, having a big plane like that meant I was guaranteed to get there.


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## Willbridge (Mar 31, 2022)

While stationed in Berlin I flew on BAC-111's and Super-111's and don't recall them as being any worse than any other small jet. Of course, being restricted to flying through the weather at 10,000 feet made for a rough ride, but that was true in Pan Am's 727 fleet on the air corridors, too. Those puffy clouds were tougher than they looked.



Soviet tank training range from an air corridor flight.


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## west point (Apr 1, 2022)

PVD said:


> I never quite figured it out, AA did lots of maintenance at JFK, but did have some indoor maint space at LGA but not for something the size of a DC-10



Forgot about those hangers at LGA. There were 3 or 4 identical built like a quonset hut but of concrete, EAL had at least 1 also AA had at least one. They were built where DC-6s, DC-7s and constellations (L-1040. L1069) and could be hangered especially winter. Just remembered TWA also. Pan Am not sure by my time The 7 and Connies flew from LGA to UK competing with EWR. required climb gradients for those recips much less than todays jets. I would have been terrified when taking off RW 31 towards 4 stacks electric generating plant.


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## AmtrakMaineiac (Apr 2, 2022)

west point said:


> Forgot about those hangers at LGA. There were 3 or 4 identical built like a quonset hut but of concrete, EAL had at least 1 also AA had at least one. They were built where DC-6s, DC-7s and constellations (L-1040. L1069) and could be hangered especially winter. Just remembered TWA also. Pan Am not sure by my time The 7 and Connies flew from LGA to UK competing with EWR. required climb gradients for those recips much less than todays jets. I would have been terrified when taking off RW 31 towards 4 stacks electric generating plant.


I remember flying out of EWR in November 1967 on the EAL shuttle to BOS they normally used Lockheed Electras but this was Thanksgiving Eve and they were using anything that could fly, in this case we got a Connie. Last time I ever flew a commercial recip plane, although later got to fly a number of them in the USAF such as C118's.


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## railiner (Apr 2, 2022)

Prop It Up: Mohawk’s Incredible Weekends Unlimited


Guest Editor Dave Nichols Mohawk’s Incredible Weekends Unlimited In April of 1970, I took two weeks off from ‘work flying’ to do some ‘fun flying’ and visit family back in Pennsylvania. Part…




worldairlinenews.com


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